# carogna



## Makonnen

An old woman is speaking to an old man and says: *Vecchia carogna. Non lo farà, non dartene pena.*
How would you translate this? Carrion, bastard ecc. don't seem quite right in English? Many thanks for any help.....


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## elfa

_You old bastard_ is how I would say it, although that is incredibly rude to say to someone's face.


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## Makonnen

Thanks - I guess I'll have to do it like that!


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## kellytree

You could also say "you old geezer" or "you old mongrel" or " you old scoundrel" or "you old wretch" 
Although they may not be harsh enough.


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## You little ripper!

Hoepli translates it _bastard, dog, rat, villain, rotter. _


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## Makonnen

Many thanks - a lot to think about!


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## davidforth

Hey man,

Carogna is similar to bastard but the latter is more rude.


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## Makonnen

Thanks David. I need to use a word that an old retainer might use talking to an old man who has reverted to childhood and is living in a fantasy world.Bastard is a bit too strong but scoundrel may not be quite strong enough? What do you think?


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## kellytree

I think you need to know a little more about the woman speaking. 
For if it was my grandmother she would say f-ing bastard - if it was my best friends grandma she would say something like "you old duffer".

Is the woman rough around the edges (my grandma) or is she more of a fine lady slightly exasperated with the old mans ways (my friend's grandma)?


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## elfa

Makonnen said:


> I need to use a word that an old retainer might use talking to an old man who has reverted to childhood and is living in a fantasy world.Bastard is a bit too strong but scoundrel may not be quite strong enough? What do you think?



Scoundrel is quite old-fashioned to my ears - and definitely not very strong! More like someone who has got up to a bit of mischief.


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## Makonnen

What about rogue? Any better?


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## davidforth

Makonnen the right one for me is _*"you old wretch"
*_I think this is more pertain to the situation of your fantasy world.


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## Makonnen

That sounds good to me - after all the poor old man is an old King and bastard might be overstepping the mark! Thanks David


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## Makonnen

How would you translate the whole quote? Vecchia carogna. Non lo farà, non dartene pena. I think starting "you wretched old man..... might be easier for an actor to be understood than "You old wretch"?


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## Makonnen

Kelly - the old woman is an old nurse who looked after the old man's children and now cares for him.....


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## davidforth

You old wretch, He/she is not gonna do it! don't trouble yourself with it (for it.. don't know well what is better)

the sentence: non darti pena in Italian means something like: don't suffer for that it's not worth while.


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## Makonnen

Thank you David - could it be "It won't work. Don't bother about it"


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## davidforth

yes it could be! very nice. Just one thing:
It won't work means Non funzionerà, but it doesn't mean that he is not going to try to do it. Do you get what I mean!?!
You just know it cos you know the context of the tale


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## elfa

Makonnen said:


> How would you translate the whole quote? Vecchia carogna. Non lo farà, non dartene pena. I think starting "you wretched old man..... might be easier for an actor to be understood than "You old wretch"?



I think either could work.

_Non lo farà_ has to be 'He/she's not going to do it.'


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## elfa

elfa said:


> _Non lo farà_ has to be 'He/she's not going to do it.'



Ok - sorry about that. I refer to the natives!


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## davidforth

elfa said:


> Ok - sorry about that. I refer to the natives!



Why sorry?!?! you're right! significa quello!

Non farti problemi! siamo tutti qui per Aiutarci!

Ciao ELFA!


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## Makonnen

Thanks again - the old man is holding a make-believe bird so I think It might be better than He or She? This is only the first quote in the play - it's going to take me a long time!!


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## davidforth

You're welcome!


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## Odysseus54

A "carogna" is a "mean son of a bitch".  ( besides the literal meaning of "carrion" ).

I would translate "Vecchia carogna" as " You mean old man " ( Is she referring to the person she is talking to ? could there be a joking/affectionate tone to it ? if not at all, and the speaker is mostly resentful , I'd say " You mean old sonovabitch " )


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## davidforth

Odysseus54 said:


> A "carogna" is a "mean son of a bitch".  ( besides the literal meaning of "carrion" ).
> 
> I would translate "Vecchia carogna" as " You mean old man " ( Is she referring to the person she is talking to ? could there be a joking/affectionate tone to it ? if not at all, and the speaker is mostly resentful , I'd say " You mean old sonovabitch " )



yes that's a possible solution. But I don't believe that our friend uses it in a fantasy tale context.


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## elfa

davidforth said:


> yes that's a possible solution. But I don't believe that our friend uses it in a fantasy tale context.



I agree with David. 'Son of a bitch' is very far from a fantasy tale context. It's also very definitely AE.


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## Odysseus54

elfa said:


> I agree with David. 'Son of a bitch' is very far from a fantasy tale context.



I don't know where the 'fantasy tale' thing comes from - from what I understand, it's the opening of a play, grown-ups stuff.

Besides, "carogna" in Italian is pretty strong language.




> It's also very definitely AE.



_That_, of course , _is_ quite unforgivable


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## elfa

Odysseus54 said:


> _That_, of course , _is_ quite unforgivable



No at all, Ody! It just depends whether Makonnen wants an AE or BE translation


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## Makonnen

I'm American but I defer to the Brits on this - it should be BE


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## Gemelle

Per fare paragogni tra buono e cattivo, in italiano si può usare:

"tu sei buono come un .... "  
("you're as good as ....")

"tu sei carogna come un ...."  
(you're as bad as ....."

Bad doesn't seem offensive enough!  I've tried the translations (suggested above) for "carogna" but they don't work.

Potete aiutarmi?

Gemelle.


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## Gemelle

Gemelle said:


> Per fare paragogni tra buono e cattivo, in italiano si può usare:
> 
> "tu sei buono come un .... "
> ("you're as good as ....")
> 
> "tu sei carogna come un ...."
> (you're as bad as ....."
> 
> Bad doesn't seem offensive enough!  I've tried the translations (suggested above) for "carogna" but they don't work.
> 
> Potete aiutarmi?
> 
> Gemelle.



Can anyone help me with the above?

Grazie,
Gemelle.


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## london calling

Gemelle said:


> Per fare paragogni tra buono e cattivo, in italiano si può usare:
> 
> "tu sei buono come un .... "
> ("you're as good as ....")
> 
> "tu sei carogna come un ...."
> (you're as bad as ....."
> 
> Bad doesn't seem offensive enough! I've tried the translations (suggested above) for "carogna" but they don't work.


I've been here for coming up 30 years, but I can't say I've ever come across an expression in Italian like this.

Buono: _buono come il pane_ is what they normally say.
Carogna: _carogna come ???_

However, let's see what the natives have to say about that! 

Were you looking specifically for an "as...as" expression in English, by the way?


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## Gemelle

It could be a Northern Italian expression, as the person who used it is from Bologna.  I was just wanting some suggestions for "carogna" in this phrase.  Perhaps  as shitty as ....    or is that too offensive/strong?   I have never heard the word carogna used, so am not familiar with how offensive it is.

Ciao.


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## london calling

Gemelle said:


> It could be a Northern Italian expression, as the person who used it is from Bologna. I was just wanting some suggestions for "carogna" in this phrase. Perhaps  as shitty as .... or is that too offensive/strong? I have never heard the word carogna used, so am not familiar with how offensive it is.
> 
> Ciao.


Well, as Ody said, it's more or less the equivalent of "sonofabitch", so I would say that's pretty strong stuff, wouldn't you? Difficult to fit anything like that into an _as....as_ structure, where you need an adjective, not a noun, obviously.

However, let's say it's basic meaning is "mean" (as in despicable, unpleasant, nasty, vile, etc.). I found this (AE) expression, which might fit the bill:

_..as mean as a junkyard dog._

Maybe someone will come up with some better ideas!


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## evrix

Are you sure "vecchia carogna" is not referred to he/she instead of to one of the speakers??


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## davidforth

Tanto carogna quanto... 
é difficile trovare una traduzione esatta in inglese perchè potresti farlo con tante parole diverse a seconda della situazione.

Come la parola Bitch (scusate la volgarità) viene tradotta in modi diversi a seconda delle situazioni cosi funziona per carogna: anche bastard potrebbe andare.. Davvero però non saprei se non c'è un contesto più ampio.
Anche perchè trovare una "comparison" con carogna è difficile.. Io ci provo ma è molto volgare e per di più non ha nulla di letterale con quello che stiamo dicendo ma interpretando il paragone molto brutto io dire:

You're as bastard as..a sonofabitch

Chiedo scusa ai WEBBI 

Ciao


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## Odysseus54

london calling said:


> However, let's say it's basic meaning is "mean" (as in despicable, unpleasant, nasty, vile, etc.).



I Agree - 'mean' or, in a more serious context, 'evil'.  

L'uso aggettivale di 'carogna' ( come di altri sostantivi , tipo 'stronzo' ) e' abbastanza usuale.


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## Makonnen

I think *evil old man* is what the playwright means. Thanks for the suggestions!


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