# I had been to Canada twice when I was ten/when I was a child.



## Exp

(?) I had been to Canada twice when I was ten (=at the time when I reached the age of ten).
 (?) I had been to Canada twice when I was a child (=during my childhood, from 0 to around 18).
 (?) I went to Canada twice when I was a child.
My understanding is that a _*when*_ clause could be used in a past-perfect sentence (had been) only if the *when* clause refers to a particular point of time up until which the person (subject) had done a certain thing a certain number of times or had kept doing it for a certain period of time (e.g. when I was ten). If the *when* clause refers to some length of time (e.g. when I was a child), it cannot be used in a past-perfect sentence. (It should rather be used in a simple past sentence.)

Is this understanding of mine correct?


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## Uncle Jack

Exp said:


> My understanding is that a _*when*_ clause could be used in a past-perfect sentence (had been) only if the *when* clause refers to a particular point of time up until which the person (subject) had done a certain thing a certain number of times or had kept doing it for a certain period of time (e.g. when I was ten).


This is not the only use. The past perfect might be used to set the time of the action backwards (this sentence follows a description of something that happened later in time), in which cast the when clause is just an ordinary time reference saying when the action happened, and there is no difference between "when I was ten" and "when I was a child" in this respect; they both mean at some point when I was ten/when I was a child.


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> This is not the only use. The past perfect might be used to set the time of the action backwards (this sentence follows a description of something that happened later in time), in which cast the when clause is just an ordinary time reference saying when the action happened, and there is no difference between "when I was ten" and "when I was a child" in this respect; they both mean at some point when I was ten/when I was a child.


Then these are grammatically correct use of a _when_ clause:

I went to Canada twice when I was a child. (experience)
I lived in Canada when I was a child. (continuous state)
I cured my illness when I was a child. (completion)
I sold the computer yesterday which Tom had given me when I was a child. (further past)

But these are not grammatically correct?:

I had been to Canada twice when I was a child. (experience)
I had lived in Canada when I was a child. (continuous state)
I had cured my illness when I was a child. (completion)


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## Uncle Jack

The past perfect can be a difficult tense, because the choice of whether to use the past tense or the past perfect often depends on the context. As a sentence in isolation, you would not use the past perfect in these examples (except in the subordinate clause in your fourth sentence), but if these sentences follow something else that happened at a later point in the past, then you can use the past perfect to shift the time of the action backwards, and this remains the case whether or not you have a when-clause.

Your "cured" sentence sounds wrong to me, and you would do better to use the passive voice ("my illness was cured").


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> The past perfect can be a difficult tense, because the choice of whether to use the past tense or the past perfect often depends on the context. As a sentence in isolation, you would not use the past perfect in these examples (except in the subordinate clause in your fourth sentence), but if these sentences follow something else that happened at a later point in the past, then you can use the past perfect to shift the time of the action backwards, and this remains the case whether or not you have a when-clause.


What about these then:

 (?) He *says* that he has lived in Canada for 10 years as of today.
 (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years as of yesterday.
 (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years at the time when he had reached age 15.
 (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years when he had been a child (=for some [if not all] duration of time during his childhood).
 (?) He lived in Canada for 10 years when he was a child.


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## Uncle Jack

Exp said:


> What about these then:
> 
> (?) He *says* that he has lived in Canada for 10 years as of today.
> (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years as of yesterday.
> (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years at the time when he had reached age 15.
> (?) He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years when he had been a child (=for some [if not all] duration of time during his childhood).
> (?) He lived in Canada for 10 years when he was a child.


The first, second and fifth are undoubtedly correct, and "had lived" is correct in the other two sentences.

The third sentence is awkward, and there is no obvious reason to use "had reached". The phrase introduced by "at" refers to the same time as the verb it modifies ("lived"), so ordinarily it would use the past tense.

The fourth sentence is different because it includes a pair of clauses joined by "when", which different speakers tend to approach differently. "When" gives both clauses the same time reference, which in this case is the time of the action in each verb (his living in Canada and his being a child). However, this is at an earlier time than the main verb ("said"), and we usually make this clear by using the past perfect. My own usual practice is to use the past perfect for the first verb and to use the past tense for the second verb ("He said that he had lived in Canada for 10 years when he was a child"), but other people prefer to use the past perfect in the when-clause and use the past tense in the other clause ("He said that he lived in Canada for 10 years when he had been a child"), and other people use the past perfect for both clauses, as in your sentence.

Note that the past perfect in the second sentence is a different use from the past perfect in the third and fourth sentence. In the second sentence, it refers to a period of time that continued up to a point of time in the past. In the other sentences, it refers to an action that took place before the time of the main verb. We sometimes don't bother backshifting reported speech, and the difference is easy to see if the verb is not backshifted; the second sentence would be "He said that he *has* *lived *in Canada for 10 years as of yesterday", whereas the other two would be "He said that he *lived *in Canada (when he *was *a child)".


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## JJXR

Uncle Jack said:


> He said that he *lived *in Canada (when he *was *a child)


Would it be correct not to backshift the sentence in which "for 10 years" is used, like this:

_He said that he *lived* in Canada for 10 years when he *was *a child._


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## Uncle Jack

JJXR said:


> Would it be correct not to backshift the sentence in which "for 10 years" is used, like this:
> 
> _He said that he *lived* in Canada for 10 years when he *was *a child._


"Correct" might be a misleading term. Backshifting indirect speech is still standard English, and I expect it is still required in exams, for example.

However, the when-clause makes it clear that the person who spoke was referring to some earlier time, so the person saying this sentence now does not need the past perfect to make the sequence of events clear. "For ten years" makes no difference here. It does not refer to a period of time leading up to some other time point that the sentence uses.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, Uncle Jack.

"Was" is a stative verb. If I use a non-stative verb like "turn", then does the following sentence still work:

_I sold the computer yesterday which Tom *had given* me when I *turned *five._

Does the sentence mean that Tom gave the speaker the computer before they turned five, or does it mean that the speaker turned five, and then Tom gave them the computer? Thanks in advance.


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## Myridon

I think it means Tom gave you yesterday.


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## Uncle Jack

Myridon makes a valid point, which I will ignore (but I suggest that you do not).



JJXR said:


> Does the sentence mean that Tom gave the speaker the computer before they turned five


No, This particular pair of clauses joined by "when" cannot possibly mean this that I can see, whatever the rest of the context and whatever tense is used for the verbs. There are only certain situations where we can interpret a past perfect action as taking place before a past tense action in a when-clause. Off the top of my head, I would say that for this interpretation to apply, the choice has to be between the past perfect and the past continuous, and the when-clause must refer to a more or less instantaneous point in time:
John was washing the dishes when I came home.​John had washed the dishes when I came home.​I don't know if the first clause could ever be a relative clause, but I cannot think of any situation where it could. It could be a subordinate clause, though ("I saw that John had washed the dishes when I came home", for example), but here the when-clause is subordinate to the main clause, not the that-clause ("When I came home, I saw that John had washed the dishes").


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## JJXR

Thanks for your responses, Myridon and Uncle Jack.


JJXR said:


> I sold the computer yesterday which Tom *had given* me when I *turned *five.


I would expect the quoted sentence to mean that yesterday I sold my computer which Tom gave me some time before yesterday, namely when I turned five. I don't quite understand the point Myridon made in post #10.


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## Myridon

I sold the computer yesterday which was a sunny day.

Putting so many modifiers together almost always creates something awkward.  It's not very likely that someone would combine all this information into one sentence anyway.
Tom gave me a computer when I was five. I sold it yesterday.
I sold my computer yesterday. Tom  gave it to me when I was five.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Myridon.


Myridon said:


> I sold the computer yesterday which was a sunny day.


Now I see what you mean.

Can the following sentence be interpreted as meaning that sometime before yesterday John's mother came home, and then John washed dishes:

_Bob told me yesterday that John *had washed* dishes when his mother *came *home._


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## Uncle Jack

JJXR said:


> Can the following sentence be interpreted as meaning that sometime before yesterday John's mother came home, and then John washed dishes:
> 
> Bob told me yesterday that John *had washed* dishes when his mother *came *home.


Quite honestly this makes no sense. We look out for all sorts of clues to work out the meaning of sentences, and one of the first things we ask ourselves is "why is this person telling me this?" There is nothing in this sentence that makes it worth saying.

Then there is the omission of "the" before "dishes". This makes it pretty conclusive that the past perfect cannot refer to an action in the past in relation to the when-clause; it must therefore be ordinary backshifted indirect speech; it happened before Bob told me.

However, this would mean that what John had said was "John washed dishes when his/my mother came home". What on earth would he say this for? If John was washing dishes at that time, then the past continuous would be used. If he didn't start washing dishes till after John/Bob's mother came home, then he would have expressed it differently.

The result is that this is a meaningless sentence, and we cannot way what the sequence of events is.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Uncle Jack.


Uncle Jack said:


> John washed dishes when his/my mother came home


It means to me that John washed dishes because, for example, his mother told him to do so when she came home.


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> The third sentence is awkward, and there is no obvious reason to use "had reached". The phrase introduced by "at" refers to the same time as the verb it modifies ("lived"), so ordinarily it would use the past tense.


Then will changing it to simple past make the sentence ok?

He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years at the time when he reached age 15.



Uncle Jack said:


> The fourth sentence.... My own usual practice is to use the past perfect for the first verb and to use the past tense for the second verb ("He said that he had lived in Canada for 10 years when he was a child"), but other people prefer to use the past perfect in the when-clause and use the past tense in the other clause ("He said that he lived in Canada for 10 years when he had been a child"), and other people use the past perfect for both clauses, as in your sentence.


I understand.


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## Uncle Jack

Exp said:


> Then will changing it to simple past make the sentence ok?
> 
> He *said* that he had lived in Canada for 10 years at the time when he reached age 15.


It still does not make sense. His reaching 15 happened at a single point in time, but he lived in Canada for 10 years. "When" does not, in general, mean that the other clause happened before or after the when-clause, but at the same time as the when-clause, or at some point within the time period mentioned in the when-clause. There are exceptions, but this is not one of them. You could say "He said he had lived in Canada for three months when he was 15", for example. He was 15 for a year, and the three months were within that year.


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## JJXR

Myridon said:


> I sold my computer yesterday. Tom *gave* it to me when I was five.


Would it correct to use the past perfect "had given" here instead of the simple past "gave":

_I sold my computer yesterday. Tom *had given* it to me when I was five._


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> It still does not make sense. His reaching 15 happened at a single point in time, but he lived in Canada for 10 years. "When" does not, in general, mean that the other clause happened before or after the when-clause, but at the same time as the when-clause, or at some point within the time period mentioned in the when-clause. There are exceptions, but this is not one of them. You could say "He said he had lived in Canada for three months when he was 15", for example. He was 15 for a year, and the three months were within that year.


My understanding of perfect aspect (have/had + past participle) is that it expresses, among others, the continuation of an action or a state between two time points.

For example, if "Tom has lived in Canada for ten years," he started his residence in Canada 10 years ago, and it continued up until this present moment. The starting point is October 2, 2010, and the end point is October 2, 2020, which is now.

In the case of present perfect, the end point is always _now_, so there is no need to expressly state it in the sentence.  In the case of past perfect, however, I supposed (possibly wrongly) that the end point at which the continuation of the action or the state ends could be expressed with a _when_ clause (like "[at the time] when I reached the age of ten").


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## Uncle Jack

JJXR said:


> Would it correct to use the past perfect "had given" here instead of the simple past "gave":
> 
> _I sold my computer yesterday. Tom *had given* it to me when I was five._


Yes. I would only use the past perfect here. We are sometimes a little careless about using the past perfect to shift the time of the action backwards in subordinate clauses, but using the past perfect to shift the time of the action backwards in an independent clause in a past tense narrative is almost automatic. I cannot answer for Myridon, of course, but perhaps he was thinking of "Tom gave it to me when I was five" as an independent statement, not as part of as narrative.


Exp said:


> My understanding of perfect aspect (have/had + past participle) is that it expresses, among others, the continuation of an action or a state between two time points.
> 
> For example, if "Tom has lived in Canada for ten years," he started his residence in Canada 10 years ago, and it continued up until this present moment. The starting point is October 2, 2010, and the end point is October 2, 2020, which is now.
> 
> In the case of present perfect, the end point is always _now_, so there is no need to expressly state it in the sentence. In the case of past perfect, however, I supposed (possibly wrongly) that the end point at which the continuation of the action or the state ends could be expressed with a _when_ clause (like "[at the time] when I reached the age of ten").


You are right about the present perfect, and the present perfect with a time period almost always has this meaning, but the past perfect with a time period does not. In reported speech, the past tense gets backshifted to the past perfect, and it is common for the past tense to have a time period (and a when-clause as well):
Mark: I lived in Liverpool for five years when I was a boy​​Mark said that he had lived in Liverpool for five years when he was a boy.​
Although you can use the past perfect with a time period and a time reference (which might be a when-clause) to refer to an action that began earlier and continued up to the time reference, where there could be any question of it being misinterpreted as a different use of the past perfect, you need to make the meaning clear. There are a variety of ways of doing this:

Use the past perfect continuous:
Matthew: I had been living in Liverpool for five years when I met Sue.

Matthew said that he had been living in Liverpool for five years when he met Sue.


Use "before", "by the time" or some other term to show you are referring to the end of a time period:
Matthew said that he had been living in Liverpool for five years before he met Sue.
Matthew said that he had been living in Liverpool for five years by the time he met Sue.


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> Although you can use the past perfect with a time period and a time reference (which might be a when-clause) to refer to an action that began earlier and continued up to the time reference, where there could be any question of it being misinterpreted as a different use of the past perfect, you need to make the meaning clear.


Putting aside the fact that you just don't use past perfect unless in a subordinate clause (you use simple past instead in an independent clause), can you use past perfect (to express the continuation of a state or an action) with a _when_ clause that refers to a time period rather than a specific time point reference?

Matthew (had lived) in Liverpool for 15 years...

while (≒when) he was a student (time period,  between 2001 and 2016).
before/by the time (≒when) he met Sue (time point reference, at 12:00, October 2, 2016).


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## Uncle Jack

Exp said:


> Putting aside the fact that you just don't use past perfect unless in a subordinate clause (you use simple past instead in an independent clause)


There is no difference. You use the past perfect to shift the time of the action backwards, whether it is in a main clause or a subordinate clause. In both cases, this is a different use of the past perfect from its referring to a time period leading up to a point in time in the past. 


Exp said:


> Matthew (had lived) in Liverpool for 15 years...
> 
> while (≒when) he was a student (time period, between 2001 and 2016).
> before/by the time (≒when) he met Sue (time point reference, at 12:00, October 2, 2016).


These are both valid sentences, in all their combinations: the first with "while" or "when" and the second with "before", "by the time" or "when".

The first sentence always requires a time reference (to a point later in time than the action described by the past perfect verb). In a subordinate clause where the main clause provides this time reference, it can be difficult to distinguish between these two uses of the past perfect, but in a main clause, if no time reference has been mentioned, then we know that the sentence cannot have the first meaning, so we don't need to take such care over ensuring listeners/readers know it has the second.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Uncle Jack.


Uncle Jack said:


> As a sentence in isolation, you would not use the past perfect in these examples





Exp said:


> I had been to Canada twice when I was a child. (experience)


Would the qutoed sentence have to be expressed like this as a sentence in isolation:

_I *was in* Canada twice when I was a child._


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## Uncle Jack

JJXR said:


> Would the qutoed sentence have to be expressed like this as a sentence in isolation:
> 
> _I *was in* Canada twice when I was a child._


Yes.


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## london calling

Uncle Jack said:


> However, this would mean that what John had said was "John washed dishes when his/my mother came home". What on earth would he say this for? If John was washing dishes at that time, then the past continuous would be used. If he didn't start washing dishes till after John/Bob's mother came home, then he would have expressed it differently.
> 
> The result is that this is a meaningless sentence, and we cannot way what the sequence of events is.


It works if you add 'already'.

_Bob told me yesterday that John *had already washed the* dishes when his mother *came *home. _

Obviously it would have to be read in a specific context.

Bob: "You remember I told you John was trying to make himself more useful round the house? His poor mum works such long hours. Well, yesterday not only had John  already washed the dishes when his mother came home, he'd made dinner as well. And tomorrow they're delivering a dishwasher!"


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Uncle Jack.


Uncle Jack said:


> JJXR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob told me yesterday that John *had washed* dishes when his mother *came *home.
> 
> 
> 
> If he didn't start washing dishes till after John/Bob's mother came home, then he would have expressed it differently.
Click to expand...

Why express it differently if the sentence says clearly that his mother's coming home caused him to wash dishes? The past perfect "had washed" indicates that the two actions both happened before Bob told someone about them. As in this case, for example:

_I told my mom that I *had* *lied *to her when I *said* I needed money to buy a book.  (__this link__)_


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## Uncle Jack

JJXR said:


> Why express it differently if the sentence says clearly that his mother's coming home caused him to wash dishes?


But the sentence *doesn't* clearly say this. "When" is not used for causality, at least, not that I can think of, and its most common use is that the two actions happened at the same time. However, here we have a "long" action (washing dishes) and a "short" action (coming home), so if they happened at the same time then we would expect washing dishes to use a progressive verb form.

We can work out what the sentence probably doesn't mean, but that does not help us work out what the sentence _does _mean. Has "the" been omitted, perhaps? "Bob told me yesterday that John had washed the dishes when his mother came home." This might mean that Bob's words were "John had washed the dishes when his mother came home." A bit unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible, and the washing of the dishes had been completed before his mother came home.

Remember that indirect speech is always a paraphrase. You are changing the words that the person actually spoke, so you have a duty to change them in a way that makes them comprehensible to listeners or readers, even if it means changing the person's words (but not their meaning):
Bob told me yesterday that John only washed the dishes after his mother had come home.​Bob told me yesterday that John had already washed the dishes before his mother came home.​


JJXR said:


> _I told my mom that I *had* *lied *to her when I *said* I needed money to buy a book.  (__this link__)_


Here the two verbs obviously took place at the same time, which is the usual use of "when".


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, Uncle Jack.


Uncle Jack said:


> here we have a "long" action (washing dishes) and a "short" action (coming home)


So, the following sentence works because we have two short actions, and we treat them here as happening more or less at the same time:

_Bob told me yesterday that John *had given *Samantha a computer when she* turned* five._

Am I right? Thanks in advance.


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## dojibear

In English, a time (a moment in time) is quite different than a period of time (the period between 2 moments).

In general "when" refers to one specific moment in time, and "while" refers to a period of time.

People often add things like "before/during" or "at the time when" to make the meaning of time phrases clear. If a sentence is not clear to the reader, it is a bad sentence. Readers aren't supposed to "figure out the meaning". If the meaning isn't obvious, don't say that!



JJXR said:


> So, the following sentence works because we have two short actions, and we treat them here as happening more or less at the same time:
> 
> _Bob told me yesterday that John *had given *Samantha a computer when she* turned* five._
> 
> Am I right? Thanks in advance.


What 2 short actions at the same time? I see 2 actions but they happened years apart.
Action 1: telling me. This happened yesterday.
Action 2: giving a computer. This happened years ago, at the time that Samantha turned five.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, dojibear.


dojibear said:


> JJXR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob told me yesterday that John *had given *Samantha a computer when she* turned* five.
> 
> 
> 
> What 2 short actions at the same time?
Click to expand...

Action #1 (it would be more correct to say event #1): Samantha turned five.
Action #2: John gave her the computer.


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## london calling

dojibear said:


> In English, a time (a moment in time) is quite different than a period of time (the period between 2 moments).
> 
> In general "when" refers to one specific moment in time, and "while" refers to a period of time.
> 
> People often add things like "before/during" or "at the time when" to make the meaning of time phrases clear. If a sentence is not clear to the reader, it is a bad sentence. Readers aren't supposed to "figure out the meaning". If the meaning isn't obvious, don't say that!
> 
> 
> What 2 short actions at the same time? I see 2 actions but they happened years apart.
> Action 1: telling me. This happened yesterday.
> Action 2: giving a computer. This happened years ago, at the time that Samantha turned five.


I see the sentence as meaning that (only) yesterday I was told about something that had happened when Samantha turned five. It makes perfect sense to me.


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## PaulQ

Exp said:


> (?) I had been to Canada twice when I was ten (=at the time when I reached the age of ten).
> (?) I had been to Canada twice when I was a child (=during my childhood, from 0 to around 18).
> (?) I went to Canada twice when I was a child.


The past perfect is usually (but not always) reserved for providing, in a narrative, the background and context to events and states that  were completed in the past. It is then followed by a main clause in the simple past which describes the main/current event/state:

I had been to Canada twice when I was ten and so I *was prepared* for the severity of the winter. - I had been to Canada sets the background/context for I *was prepared *for the severity.

Likewise:

I had been to Canada twice when I was a child but *was *astonished at the changes that I now saw.

But

I went to Canada twice when I was a child. - this is not background or context. It is a bald statement.


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## Exp

Uncle Jack said:


> These are both valid sentences, in all their combinations: the first with "while" or "when" and the second with "before", "by the time" or "when".
> 
> The first sentence always requires a time reference (to a point later in time than the action described by the past perfect verb). In a subordinate clause where the main clause provides this time reference, it can be difficult to distinguish between these two uses of the past perfect, but in a main clause, if no time reference has been mentioned, then we know that the sentence cannot have the first meaning, so we don't need to take such care over ensuring listeners/readers know it has the second.


Thanks. Somehow I came to think that you can't use perfect aspect with a _when_ clause referring to a time period (e.g. between 2001 and 2016) rather than a time point reference (e.g. 12:00, October 2, 2016), which was wrong.


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## JJXR

I've found the following passage on this website:

_I'm now older than you were when you were swept to your death off a high rope bridge in the Scottish Highlands, aged 49. Your young wife, my stepmother, was behind you and could only watch helpless as you fell. Your son was only two. You were fit, exuberantly full of life and happy in your second marriage. This was your chance to be a good father and it was snatched away. For us three children from your first marriage, it was a different story. You *left* us when we were all under five. That time, it was your choice to leave. You married young, had three children in quick succession and decided domestic life wasn't for you. When I asked my mother why you had left, she said you didn't like Edinburgh, the city where you grew up and where I was born._

The simple past "left" is used in the original. I wonder if it would be correct to use the past perfect "had left" here instead. Thanks in advance.


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## PaulQ

All the other verbs are in the simple past - why would you want to change one of them?


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, PaulQ.


PaulQ said:


> All the other verbs are in the simple past - why would you want to change one of them?


Because the leaving happened at an earlier time, i.e. before he was fit, exuberantly full of life and happy in his second marriage.


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## PaulQ

JJXR said:


> Because the leaving happened at an earlier time,


But everything happened at an earlier time...

The following also happened before he left:


JJXR said:


> You *married* young, *had* three children in quick succession and *decided* domestic life *wasn't* for you. When I *asked* my mother why you had left (reported speech "Why *did *he leave"), she said you *didn't like* Edinburgh, the city where you *grew up* and where I *was born*.



To answer your question: "No, you cannot. It would sound strange."


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## JJXR

Thanks for the response, PaulQ.

I think "married" should also be "had married" because that happened before the leaving. Why are "left" and "married" in the simple past? Thanks in advance.


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## PaulQ

The simple past and the past perfect are often interchangeable (but not always.) The author of that example has chosen a factual and evidential style of writing in which all the incidents are listed separately. They are all, to an extent, accusations - think of a lawyer in court listing the crimes of the accused: "You did this, you did that, you did the other... etc." The use of the past perfect is inappropriate here as it would not convey that style properly.


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## JJXR

Thanks for the explanation, PaulQ.


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## PaulQ

I will add:


PaulQ said:


> The past perfect is usually (but not always) reserved for providing, in a narrative, the background and context to events and states that were completed in the past. It is then followed by a main clause in the simple past which describes the main/current event/state:


All the "accusations" are main events: they are not background/context to something that will come later.


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