# Catalan or Catalonian



## belano75

What is the difference between this two words? Is it possible to use them exactly in the same contexts?​


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## nataliagl

i'm not sure but i think that 'catalán' is used to make reference to the language only, whereas 'catalonian' functions as adjective, eg. catalonian newspapers, catalonian airlines, etc.


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## iberco32

http://www.answers.com/topic/catalan
http://www.answers.com/topic/catalonian


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## loladamore

belano75 said:
			
		

> What is the difference between this two words? Is it possible to use them exactly in the same contexts?​


I think the main difference is that Catalonian is the older of the two, but that Catalan is currently the more generally accepted term. Oxford has
catalonian simply as an alternative to Catalan, meaning that the two are completely interchangeable.

I occasionally use Catalonian as an adjective, but always Catalan for the people and language. However, that's a personal preference with no criteria I can think of.


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## belano75

Thank you all for your help!


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## Outsider

The English term for Catalunya is "Catalonia", so a natural derivation would produce "Catalonian" for the nationality and the language. Yet everyone seems to be using "Catalan".
How do the native speakers of Catalan feel about this? Which term do you prefer?

Thanks for all replies.


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## betulina

Hi, Outsider!

I personally prefer "Catalan". I might be the only one, but I must admit that before knowing WR I hardly had seen the term "Catalonian". 

For the language, I prefer Catalan because I think it refers to all Catalan-speaking territories. I think "Catalonian" would refer only to the dialects of the language spoken in Catalonia itself, not to the others. So I see "Catalan" as a "whole-covering" term (and I might have made up this one, but I suppose you understand  ).

As for nationality, I suppose we should be "Catalonians", yes, but it's so easy to do "català -> Catalan" . Seriously, in this case I don't have any preference, apart from being more used to say "I'm Catalan". In my opinion it's all a matter of habit here. 

Salut!


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## Tomby

Hi, Outsider!
I agree with Betulina.  
I live in Catalonia and I speak Catalan and my nationality, in Spain, is Catalan too.
Cumprimentos!


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## pickypuck

Following the rule, isn't the natural derivation for Portugal Portugalian?  

¡Olé!


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## Outsider

_Touché_, I guess.


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## crises

I have sometimes wondered the same and even though I do tend to use "Catalan", I think "Catalonian" would have been a better choice. However, etymology can be sometimes unexpected!

"Catalan" entered the English language via French, and French language took it from the Castilian word "catalán". However, "catalán" is not an original Castilian word but a loan from Occitan, as the Castilian word would have been "catalano" as in "valencià">"valenciano".


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## ampurdan

So, perhaps French took it directly from Occitan...


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## Cracker Jack

I am not Catalan but I have learned in the University that the words català and castellano are derived from the Latin word castle in Catalan and Spanish respectively. Castrum was a Latin word for a plot of land in which military fortification such as castle was meant to be erected.  In Catalonia as in the rest of northern Spain, castles were constructed so that the people may fend off the Muslims.  

The word castrum evolved into castellum-castillo-castilla-castellano in Spanish and castell-castllà-castlania-català in Catalan.  However, Catalan is the anglicized version of catalán and català.  Catalonian would seem like a super-anglicized Catalan.  Catalan would be better.


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## crises

This is a theory  only applies to "Castilla". "Castilla" came from late Latin "Castella", a derivation from old Latin "castrum": Castella > Castiella > Castilla [notice that LL in -ella sounded /ɫɫ/ in ancient Castilian].

The origin of "Catalunya" is not so obvious. Checking the radical of the word and the historical grammar of Catalan, it would be more probably a derivation from Arabic "calat" rather than Latin "castrum"/"castellum". One theory says the origin of Catalunya is  "calat Taluniya", a pressumed Arabian castle called Taluniya. Then, there are theories about Goth-related origins (from "Gotholandia">"Gothalunia").

But the only theory confirmed so far is that reverse origin of the word:
Catalunya < Catalonia/Catalaunia < Catalania

In any case, the earlier "Catalan"-related word found so far is the adjective "catalanesc" which cannot be easily related to "castrum". Besides, any theory about "castlanus"/"castellanus is based on myths and not historical research.


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## elroy

pickypuck said:


> Following the rule, isn't the natural derivation for Portugal Portugalian?
> 
> ¡Olé!


 No, because "Portugal" doesn't end in "-ia."  Can you think of another proper noun ending in "-ia" that does not simply receive an "-n" in the adjective form?

Honestly, I've pretty much always thought that "Catalonian" was simply the English equivalent of "catalán/català" (the language) - without being limited to the variety of the language spoken in Catalonia.  After all, we don't call call French Francais just because it's also spoken in Belgium.  However, a year ago someone on this forum complained when I used "Catalonian" and claimed that "Catalan" was more appropriate _in English_.  I did not understand this, but I let it go.  I have yet to hear a convincing reason why "Catalan" is better in English.  Please bear in mind that I'm not referring to the ethnicity/nationality, but to the language.  Obviously we can't call Mallorcans Catalonians, just like Belgians aren't French. 

By the way, Betulina, the word you are looking for is "all-encompassing."


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## ampurdan

Good point, Elroy. However, we all know that there are irregularities in language. The rule would lead us to say "españano" for "español" in Spanish and "catalunyà" for "català" in Catalan. 

Anyway, the traditional name of this language in English has been Catalan, nor Catalonian. Catalonia is the land and Catalans are its inhabitants, even though they can also be called Catalonians, I guess. I would never call the language Catalonian. It's not so strange: Arabian is an inhabitant of Arabia, who would speak Arabic.

The Merriam-Webster traces back the origins of the English word "Catalan" into Spanish.


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## betulina

elroy said:


> By the way, Betulina, the word you are looking for is "all-encompassing."



Wow, thank you, Elroy!! Never heard before!  Keep correcting my made-up words!! 

I agree with you that the place where a language is spoken doesn't make its name, but as Ampurdan said, I think tradition does. I understand your point as a foreigner, and I won't be offended at all if you say that I speak "Catalonian". After all, we are referring to the same language. Ethymology and word-generation processes (?) have  its peculiarities. But what I stated above is my feeling as a native speaker.

Salut!


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## pickypuck

elroy said:


> No, because "Portugal" doesn't end in "-ia." Can you think of another proper noun ending in "-ia" that does not simply receive an "-n" in the adjective form?


 
Occitania - Occitan


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## Mei

Hi there,

I prefer to use "Catalan".

Cheers

Mei


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## elroy

pickypuck said:


> Occitania - Occitan


 If "Occitania" exists in English, then so does "Occitanian."   But anyway, that's beside the point.  Ampurdan has already pointed out that my own native language  is an exception in that we say "Arabic" and not "Arabian" even though the reference is to "Arabia."  In either case, the existence of exceptions does that invalidate the tendency for "-ia" nouns to have "-ian" adjectives.

Regarding "Catalan" - I am willing to accept this as an exception, but it is still not "more logical."  That's all I was trying to get at in my previous post.  So ceterus paribus I would have said "Catalonian" but now that I've been enlightened and informed I say "Catalan."


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## pickypuck

elroy said:


> If "Occitania" exists in English, then so does "Occitanian."


 
Occitanian exists in the same way as Catalonian. But dictionaries and encyclopaedias say that the correct terms to use in English are Catalan and Occitan.



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> Ampurdan has already pointed out that my own native language  is an exception in that we say "Arabic" and not "Arabian" even though the reference is to "Arabia.


 
That has made me think of Hispania - Hispanic.




			
				elroy said:
			
		

> In either case, the existence of exceptions does that invalidate the tendency for "-ia" nouns to have "-ian" adjectives.


 
Nobody here had said the contrary.


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## elroy

pickypuck said:


> Nobody here had said the contrary.


 I was only adressing the "Portugal" point - perhaps in a clumsy manner.   Anyway, I'd say the issue is settled so there's not much more to discuss.


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## pickypuck

elroy said:


> I was only adressing the "Portugal" point - perhaps in a clumsy manner.  Anyway, I'd say the issue is settled so there's not much more to discuss.


 
I was just joking. Look at my stick-out-tongue face accompanying the sentence


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## brau

jester. said:


> Catalonia is the region. It's called Cataluña in Castilian and Catalunya in Catalan.
> 
> The adjective in English is Catalan and only Catalan. The word Catalonian does not exist. Catalan is catalán in Castilian and català in Catalan.
> 
> The language is called Catalan in English, catalán in Castilian and català in Catalan.



The word Catalonian does exist. It is often used nowadays only when speaking about the ancient Crown of Aragon, but you can find it in the Oxford Dictionary of English.


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## jester.

brau said:


> The word Catalonian does exist. It is often used nowadays only when speaking about the ancient Crown of Aragon, but you can find it in the Oxford Dictionary of English.



Ok, I see. But I'd say it is not so important and might lead to confusion, as it is not supposed to be used to refer to the Catalans of our times.


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## brau

Actually, the word is currently used. Oxford doesn't mark it as archaic, nor does the Cambridge dictionary. It is more used nowadays as an adjective.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

Jo us he de dir que l'he sentida alguna vegada (_Catalonian_) dita per English speakers, tot i que suposo que sí que domina l'ús de C_atalan_.


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## jester.

brau said:


> Actually, the word is currently used. Oxford doesn't mark it as archaic, nor does the Cambridge dictionary. It is more used nowadays as an adjective.



Are you sure? I was quite certain that "catalan" was the more common denomination...

For example, if you take a look at this Wikipedia article on your language, you'll notice that the adjective "catalonian" is not even used once.


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## jester.

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Jo us he de dir que l'he sentida alguna vegada (_Catalonian_) dita per English speakers, tot i que suposo que sí que domina l'ús de C_atalan_.



Como Cataluña está muy remota para los anglohablantes, quizás no conozcan la denominación correcta en su idioma sino quizás simplemente la derivan (incorrectamente) del nombre de la región (Catalonia --> Catalonian).
En mi opinión es bastante curioso que haya dos adjetivos para decir "catalán" en inglés...


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## TraductoraPobleSec

jester. said:


> Como Cataluña está muy remota para los anglohablantes, quizás no conozcan la denominación correcta en su idioma sino quizás simplemente la derivan (incorrectamente) del nombre de la región (Catalonia --> Catalonian).
> En mi opinión es bastante curioso que haya dos adjetivos para decir "catalán" en inglés...


 
El meu "pare" de Seattle sempre deia "Catalonian".

Ostres, escric això i marca el Madrid... Mallorquins, salveu-nos!


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## brau

Catalan is indeed the most common denomination (I never said otherwise), but Catalonian is a perfectly correct word in the English language, the oldest term of the two (so no I don't think it is a modern derivation) and still used nowadays, especially as an adjective. A search in google offers more than 700,000 results on Catalonian, take a look to see how it is used. Anyway, I advise you not to take Wikipedia information too seriously.


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## jester.

I wonder whether those two adjectives are totally equivalent and why there are two adjectives for the same thing. Any ideas?


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## TraductoraPobleSec

jester. said:


> I wonder whether those two adjectives are totally equivalent and why there are two adjectives for the same thing. Any ideas?


 
Well, think that this is not totally uncommon in languages; in Catalan we have both *finès* and *finlandès*, for example.


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## ernest_

I remembar a book titled "The Deplorable History of the Catalans" published in 1714, so by that time this word was already around.


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## ajohan

I think that the word is Catalan and Catalonian is just made up by English speakers through intuition. They hear about Catalonia first and then just add a popular English suffix. If Hospitalet suddenly became famous we'd probably get Hospitaletatian. It's not difficult to get 700,000 hits on Google because they tend to multiply because of copy and paste and webs linking to webs.


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## brau

Ok, my last words on the Catalonian/Catalan debate. Catalan is indeed the most common and quite preferable term, but Catalonian is also used _and _correct. Whatever its origins may be, the highest and most prestigious representatives of the English language state it is correct. The fact that Catalonian is an old word doesn't exclude the fact that Catalan was also used centuries ago. Google results mean little, I agree, but the ammount of results reflect that it is used, since it was already proved that it is normative.


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## xarruc

I use both catalan and catalonian interchangably with no nuances between them. 

I believe the BBC currently uses "catalonian"


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## ajohan

xarruc said:


> I use both catalan and catalonian interchangably with no nuances between them.
> 
> I believe the BBC currently uses "catalonian"


 
On the BBC search facilty we get 9 X Catalonian and 158 X Catalan. It has to be admitted mind you that a lot of the Catalan hits come from mention of the French rugby league team Catalans Dragons.

Edit:
I'm wrong. It's 9 pages of ten entries for Catalonian and 158 pages of ten entries for Catalan. It seems that Catalonain also picks up the word Catalonia.


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## JGreco

In the U.S I've actually heard "Catalonian" more than "Catalan".


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## jester.

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Well, think that this is not totally uncommon in languages; in Catalan we have both *finès* and *finlandès*, for example.



En castellà també!  No lo sabía hasta que lo he averiguado en mi diccionario hace un instante... ¡Qué curioso!


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## louhevly

As far as the origin of the word "Catalunya" goes, a search for this word at http://dcvb.iecat.net/default.asp will return "more than you ever wanted to know". The upshot is that no one really knows.


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## Mph redux

I always use "Catalan" but the use of "Catalonian" is accepted and I'm OK with it as well. 
Big deal.


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## realmadridfan

Tombatossals said:


> Hi, Outsider!
> I agree with Betulina.
> I live in Catalonia and I speak Catalan and my nationality, in Spain, is Catalan too.
> Cumprimentos!



Your nationality is Catalan and not Spanish?  Do you have a Catalan passport then?  I don't understand.  I am Swiss from Ticino, my language is Italian, but my nationality is Swiss. Could you explain this more? 

Gracias i adeu,

Nico


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## ernest_

realmadridfan said:


> Your nationality is Catalan and not Spanish?  Do you have a Catalan passport then?  I don't understand.  I am Swiss from Ticino, my language is Italian, but my nationality is Swiss. Could you explain this more?



According to the Spanish constitution there's one nation and various nationalities within Spain, whatever that is supposed to mean. They decided to put it this way in order to please everybody (although I suspect nobody really is), so it is technically correct to say that his nationality is Catalan.


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## merquiades

Hi.  After a long discussion with a friend we couldn't come to any consensus of the use of Catalonia/Catalunya/Cataluña in English and the adjective applying to the people, country, language. So I found this old thread and decided to ressurect it. Hopefully no qualms about that. It can only make it clearer for posterity.

For the country, speaking in English, I'd probably say Catalunya with an accent, but the problem is when writing it.  Catalonia seems somewhat better, but has an archaic feel to me.  Catalunya, however, looks really strange on paper.  I'd probably use it and put it in italics anyway, but as has been stated, Catalonia is in the dictionary, Catalunya not. What do you see in Catalunya? Do you mind? 

With the adjective I would use "Catalan" with no problem, and would suggest it.  Catalonian cuisine, Catalonian beaches also seems archaic, personally, but I have seen it widely used in the US. Some people can't pronounce Catalan. 

The people and language should always be Catalan but sometimes you see Català in italics for the language. It's in vogue to use the native word for languages, like Lëtzebuergesch, etc. Another problem I've had is making Catalan plural. Is it possible to say "the Catalans"?? Do you see it, use it?  It really hurts my ear.  But "the Catalonians" again sounds to me like it's from a different epoch. I end up saying "the Catalan people".

Language changes over time and not universally, and that's created such hesitations in English.  I suspect Catalonia-catalonian are conservative and survive where people are not used to talking about the region (maybe like Peking/Bejing, Chinese/Mandarin), but one can never be sure. I trying to see how things are evolving.
One thing is sure, for information, La Catalogne - Catalan are simple and universal in French.

Anyways thanks for your imput.


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

Please type on iutub:

pau casals nacions unides

Let's hear that what he says.


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## merquiades

Juan Jacob Vilalta said:


> Please type on iutub:
> 
> pau casals nacions unides
> 
> Let's hear that he says.



Hola JJV. Gràcies per l'enllaç. 
PG diu Catalonia pronunciada Catalonya.  Una vegada diu "a city in southern France that was Catalonian", pero diu clarament "I am a Catalan". 
Salut


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

merquiades said:


> Hola JJV. Gràcies per l'enllaç.
> PG PC diu Catalonia pronunciada Catalonya. Una vegada diu "a city in southern France that was Catalonian", pero diu clarament "I am a Catalan".
> Salut


 
_The greatest nation in the world._

_Today... a province of Spain._

Great guy! Oi?


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## Angelo di fuoco

realmadridfan said:


> Your nationality is Catalan and not Spanish?  Do you have a Catalan passport then?  I don't understand.  I am Swiss from Ticino, my language is Italian, but my nationality is Swiss. Could you explain this more?
> 
> Gracias i adeu,
> 
> Nico



Nationality and citizenship are two concepts that tend to be mixed up nowadays.


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Nationality and citizenship are two concepts that tend to be mixed up nowadays.



It's true that the the two concepts are totally mixed up in English and some other languages too. It can be confusing. You are asked in American customs what your nationality is and they don't care to know about your cultural identity or linguistic affinities.  Nation, nationalism, nationality are different in Spain and refer to language and culture or what's called regionalism elsewhere. Catalan(s)-- still don't know if we can say it in plural in English-- use Nació, Nacionalisme, Nacionalitat to show what is relevant to or in favor of their language, culture, region, politics, society, people etc. as opposed to others.


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## ryba

Hello.





merquiades said:


> Another problem I've had is making Catalan plural. Is it possible to say "the Catalans"?? Do you see it, use it?  It really hurts my ear.  But "the Catalonians" again sounds to me like it's from a different epoch. I end up saying "the Catalan people".


Why?  Is it about morphology?

Does _Africans_ hurt your ear too?


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## merquiades

ryba said:


> Hello.
> Why?  Is it about morphology?
> 
> Does _Africans_ hurt your ear too?



Catalans with s doesn't sound completely right to me.  I'm not saying it's wrong, it might be just me.  It's like Portuguese, French, Swiss or Irish (in these cases I'm sure there can be no s), the s bothers me (a little), but there is a doubt... It might be that I'm just not used to hearing it plural.  Africans of course sounds perfect.  That's why I always say "Catalan people".


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## Pedro y La Torre

Catalans with an s sounds perfectly fine to me. I suspect its ''strangeness'' comes from the fact that we don't have much cause to use it much in English, and I imagine, hardly ever in American English.

I prefer Catalunya to Catalonia, but would always go with Catalonia as that's what the dictionary dictates.



---------------------------
[nota de moderació: Aquest fil queda tancat. Actualment no té cabuda en el fòrum de català, ja que hi tractem la formació d'una paraula anglesa. Gràcies.]


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