# recommend that she < should continue / continued / continue>



## Soo K.

_ (1) Everybody *recommended* that she should continue with her  education for 3 more years.
 (2) Everybody *recommended* that she continued with her education for 3 more years.
 (3) Everybody *recommended* that she continue with her education for 3 more years.
(source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv201.shtml)

_I know that (1) and (3) have the same meaning.  But (2) is so strange to me.  Do they all have the same meaning? Or does (2) have a different meaning?


Thanks all the time in advance.


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## Chasint

I agree with you. I see it as an error.


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## panjandrum

(2) is strange to me too.
I think it is a version of the sentence that people who never use a subjunctive form might use.  I believe that it means the same as the other two sentences.

To be honest, I think this post on the BBC site is misleading.  For example, the sentence "The boss *suggested* we left early yesterday," is said to be "perfectly correct".  It is not correct in my version of English.


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## Loob

(2) is correct in my version of English, Soo K.  In longer sentences, I'd be more likely to say _He recommended that I should go_; in shorter ones, I'd be happy to say _I recommended he went_.





panjandrum said:


> ... For example, the sentence "The boss *suggested* we left early yesterday," is said to be "perfectly correct".  It is not correct in my version of English.


It's correct in my version of English, panj.

I think this may be an area where Irish English and American English have much in common, but 'English-English' diverges....


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## velisarius

"The boss *suggested* we left early yesterday"

I suppose people say this in BE, but to me it's ambiguous. I would read it as "_The boss made the suggestion_ (accusation) _that we left early yesterday _(whereas we should have stayed on until 5 o'clock.)"


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## bennymix

I find 2) in the OP, most peculiar.   

As to Pan's example,





> "The boss *suggested*  *  we left early yesterday,"


   is quite peculiar IF it's supposed to mean the same thing as "Yesterday the boss suggested that we leave early."   Here, the suggestion is to bring about leaving (or allow it).

As Velisarius suggests, however, with some contrivance, the sentence applies to a situation of a current suggestion by the boss, as to something he thinks occurred in the past, but which he may *not* have wanted at all.   An analogy.  I'm interviewed by the police
about the death of an acquaintance, from an overdose, a year ago.   In fact I was not with him at the time because I was at work, but the policeman doesn't believe me.  I say,  "The policeman suggested I left work early and was with Bob when he died."


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## Thomas Tompion

(2) is correct in my version of English too.

_ *(2) Everybody recommended that she continued with her education for 3 more years* would be a past-tense version of __*Everybody recommends that she continues with her education for 3 more years.

*_To my ear the subjunctive version _*- *__*(3) Everybody recommended that she continue with her education for 3 more years - *_sounds extremely prissy and formal.  I couldn't easily say or write it.

The first sentence - *(1) Everybody recommended that she should continue with her  education for 3 more years *- sounds natural, though formal.

As for the difference between _*(2) Everybody recommended that she continued with her education for 3 more years*_ and _*(2a) Everybody recommended that she continues with her education for 3 more years*_, I'd say the issues are the normal ones in questions of tense-shifting: does the recommendation have strong present force, for instance?

Interesting question raised by Loob on similarities between Irish English and AE in subjunctive use.


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## bennymix

Sounds very odd over here, Thomas.



> (2) is correct in my version of English too.
> 
> _ *(2) Everybody recommended that she continued with her education for 3 more years* would be a past-tense version of __*Everybody recommends that she continues with her education for 3 more years.*_



For an analogy consider, present tense.   "I order that she go out immediately."   Around here (NE US and E. Canada), the past tense is
certainly NOT,  in my account of this event, a while later.   "I ordered that she went out immediately."   

As I argued in post #6, it's only with some contrivance what one can have the double past, as explained in the case of "The boss suggested we left early yesterday."   The suggestion has to be past, but near present, and AFTER the leaving, which is in the most distant past.

I believe you disagree.   Would you say, for present,  "The boss suggests that we leave early today."     AND  if that's occurred and later recounted in the past.  "The boss suggested that we left early yesterday"?


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## Loob

Benny, we've talked about this difference in many previous threads.


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## Thomas Tompion

I think generations of BE members have agreed that we could happily say *The boss suggested that we left early yesterday*.

< Response to deleted post. >


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## panjandrum

I believe that generations of threads on similar topics to this one have concluded that some of us on the western fringes of BE have some language traits that also persist in AE


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## Thomas Tompion

panjandrum said:


> I believe that generations of threads on similar topics to this one have concluded that some of us on the western fringes of BE have some language traits that also persist in AE


I hope you aren't considering secession, Panj.

I've been interested to learn since I joined WR that BE is becoming increasingly subjunctivised, from the West, ie. from interaction with AE, and that this trend goes against that noted in the early to mid-20th century of a growing preference for the indicative in this sort of instance, such as you see mentioned in Fowler.


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## bennymix

Thomas, If by "[generations] could happily say" you are meaning they *tolerate or allow*, yes it appears so, judging from my limited sampling of posts.  But if you mean that  British speakers all {or generally} *prefer* to insert a matching past tense in the embedded clause in these cases, the answer seems to be 'no,'  though I have not conducted a poll.    Witness this, for example.


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2620623

19th April 2013, 8:34 AM #4
Beryl from Northallerton



> [Beryl on example sentences]
> 
> 
> > "I mentioned that my biology professor was quite good and suggested that she switch to my class".[checked as correct]
> 
> > "I mentioned that my biology professor was quite good and suggested that she switched to my class". Though I think you'll find that this form is used.  [downturned mouth icon]
> 
> > "last week, the Doctor suggested that he go to the hospital immediately" [checked as correct]
> 
> > "last week, the Doctor suggested that he went to the hospital immediately" Same again. [downturned mouth icon]
> 
> These merely represent my preferences.






Thomas Tompion said:


> I think generations of BE members have agreed that we could happily say *The boss suggested that we left early yesterday*.
> 
> < Response to deleted post. >


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## Loob

Benny, I'm not sure what your point is.  But please be aware that there is no question of my "tolerating" or "allowing" the indicative after _recommend _or _suggest_.  For the avoidance of doubt: *I do not use and could not bring myself to use the subjunctive after recommend or suggest.
*
I am not suggesting that my usage reflects that of all of my countrymen.  That would be foolish indeed, not least because it seems clear - as I have said in several of the many other threads on this subject, and as TT says in this - that BrE-speakers are progressively re-learning the subjunctive from our American cousins.


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## bennymix

I don't think my main point is about subjunctive so much as about tense, Loob.   I find it odd to match a past tense in an embedded clause to a past tense in the main clause.   

In Pan's example:  "The boss *suggested* we left early yesterday,"  to which he and I take exception, the proper AE verb, one endorsed by Beryl as well, is "leave".    The reason is that, in present, "The boss suggests that we leave."   The past is formed, AE, altering the main verb only.

To discuss subjunctive, here, is not relevant, since its form is the same as the indicative.

Returning to the OP's examples.




> _(1) Everybody *recommended* that she should continue with her  education for 3 more years.
> (2) Everybody *recommended* that she continued with her education for 3 more years._



I have no problem with 1) if you're subjunctive averse.    I object, in AE, to 2) because of its weird change to past tense in the embedded clause.


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## Thomas Tompion

You seem to neglect the obvious point about tense shifting, Bennymix.


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## bennymix

Hi Loob,
I've looked for threads that deal not just with the old BE/AE subjunctive question, but which deal with forming the past tense, and whether the embedded clause should be rendered in past to agree, as in "The principal recommended that John *left the school."   Or, in other words, discussing or explaining the propriety or commonness of construction 2) in the OP.

Could you or someone please point me to the lots of threads on this topic, for various verbs.   Note I did find one, which I quoted in a previous post, including Beryl's thoughts.  I found a couple with passing *mention* of the construction, but no actual discussion.   I appreciate your help.

Thanks.



Loob said:


> Benny, we've talked about this difference in many previous threads.


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## bennymix

Thomas, If you would let me know of a few example threads--out of generations-- on the question of forming the past tense for the subjunctive (or not) of the verbs,  I would appreciate it.   The request is specified in more detail in my most recent post,  #17, today, a few minutes ago.

I do see, on the 'net,  many 'happy sayings' of examples such as your bolded sentence, but I'm looking for explanation/discussion, here, of the rationale.



Thomas Tompion said:


> I think generations of BE members have agreed that we could happily say *The boss suggested that we left early yesterday*.
> 
> < Response to deleted post. >


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## Loob

Benny, if you want to discuss the "rationale" for my usage, then I'm afraid I'll have to leave you to it. I use the present indicative after present tense _suggest/recommend_ and the past indicative after past tense _suggest/recommend; _you use the present subjunctive after both. Other languages use the present subjunctive after a present tense and the  past subjunctive after a past tense. 

That's the way it is.


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## bbsn

_Everybody     __*recommended*__     that she should continue with her education for 3 more years._

_I feel the first     sentence is correct_

_
2.  Everybody     __*recommended*__     that she continued with her education for 3 more years._

_Everybody recommended     that she *should have* continued with her education for 3 more years.     (Note: it means she does not continue her education now but should     have done it)_

_
(3) Everybody     __*recommended*__     that she continue with her education for 3 more years._ 
     I feel there is a mistake with the 3rd     sentence as it must be “Present Simple”
     Therefore, it must be like “Everybody     recommends that she continues with her education for 3 more years”

Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you

BBSN

<<>>


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## bennymix

The views have pretty much been canvased, bbsn.   Here is my impression and summary.  

AE and BE speakers agree on 1,  though the AE might not prefer it.    

AE speakers object to 2, and BE folks are fine with it.     
Your proposal for 2, call it 2* "...should have continued..." is a change of meaning.   

AE speakers like 3, and you do not;  we disagree with you as to the alleged 'mistake.'   BE is becoming more accepting of 3.   Again, your proposal, call it 3*  "...recommends that she continues..." changes the meaning (in respect of tense).   On this third example (3), there are several previous threads; similar verbs, similar issues.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1289232
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1273707


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## PollyKate

This post and the following ones have been added to a previous thread covering the same topic. Please read down from the top to follow the discussion.  DonnyB - moderator.
Hi folks,

My question re the above resource refers to this extract:

_"You can also recommend *someone to do* something.
Although they have eight children, they do not recommend other couples to have families of this size.
_
*Some people*_ consider this use to be incorrect, and say that you should say ‘Although they have eight children, they do not recommend that other couples should have families of this size’. _(my bold highlight)"

So _*which*_ people consider this use to be incorrect? Grammarians? Trained English teachers? My student is an L2 academic who frequently gives lectures in English, and we both need to be sure that if she uses this form it will be acceptable to her native English university students.

Thanks in advance,
Polly


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## london calling

The use of 'recommend' has been discussed several times so I suggest you search the forum but, of course, you will see different answers from different people: there is no EO recommended usage as such, only the opinions of its contributors.

Welcome.


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## Edinburgher

Your original version doesn't look very good, though I'm not sure it's actually incorrect.
Using the infinitive "to have" as a noun phrase is often OK , but feels awkward here.  Where a verb has two objects, it is the indirect one that's typically marked with "to", and in your sentence it creates confusion if you are using the infinitive-marker "to" as part of the direct object.
I would recommend   that you not use "to have".  Your alternative is fine (and you could even omit "should": _they do not recommend that other couples have..._), or you could use "having": _they do not recommend having families of this size to other couples_.  You could even omit "having": _they do not recommend such large families to other couples_.


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## london calling

Ok then, if we're giving our opinions here as well  then I have to say that I  consider both these  incorrect:

_Although they have eight children, they do not *recommend* other couples *to have* families of this size.
‘Although they have eight children, they do not recommend that other couples *should* have families of this size’.
_
To me it's only correct if you use the bare infinitive:
_
Although they have eight children, they do not *recommend* other couples to *have* families of this size._

The -ing form is common but I don't like it as much:

_Although they have eight children, they do not *recommend* other couples to *having* families of this size._


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## Hermione Golightly

We know that language is changing and it's a question of choosing what reflects educated usage.
The site linked below shows how this particular aspect has changed in one respect at least.
"Recommend you to [do something]" or "Recommend to you to [do something]"?.
I'm fairly sure that I use recommend 'that' + usual indicative form
for third singular and plural persons and pronouns in the subject case.

_I recommend (that) they go/, that s/he goes.

They don't recommend (that) other families have so many children._


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## PollyKate

Hi,

I didn't make my question very clear, sorry. The sentences are not mine, they're taken from the Wordreference English Usage forum as general usage of _to recommend - recommend - WordReference.com Dictionary of English .
_
London Calling, I understand your comment re there not being any EO rules, but there is no individual author reference to that particular link, or not that I can see. 

My question is not whether _recommend + object + to + infinitive_ is correct, but who the '_Some people_' might be who do consider it incorrect
("*Some people*_ consider this use to be incorrect...")._ 

Would these people be strict grammarians? To me the structure sounds either very formal or like a bad direct translation, and I would personally never use it. 

Polly


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## Edinburgher

london calling said:


> I consider both these incorrect


Why exactly do you consider "that they should have" incorrect?  It looks unremarkable to me.
In "recommend they have", I believe "have" is the subjunctive, not the bare infinitive.  Isn't "that they should have" just a variant of the subjunctive?

Like you, I don't like the -ing version that way round, which is why I switched the order in my example.

There is also the question to consider, whether the recommendation (not to have large families) is being made to other couples (which is the sense I got from the OP example), or whether "other couples not having large families" is a single object that is being recommended  to an implicit object (the reader/listener).


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## london calling

You're right about 'they have': it's quite definitely  the subjunctive, my apologies, I wasn't thinking. Why do I think 'should have' is incorrect? To be honest I have no (grammatical) answer to that. I just feel that 'should' has no logical place in the sentence.


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## manfy

As far as I know, _recommend_ works the same way as _suggest_, and as such it does not take an indirect object. (except in colloquial speech, of course)
Terefore this should be considered ungrammatical by most speakers: 


PollyKate said:


> _"You can also recommend *someone to do* something. _


You could, however, say "_You can also advise *someone to do* something." _

The Cambridge dictionary has a nice example of a typical error for suggest:
_We don’t use suggest + indirect object + to-infinitive when we suggest an action to someone:
He *suggested* *that* I should apply for a job in a bank or insurance company.
Not: He suggested me to apply _​But as Hermione mentioned above, language is changing. And if descriptive grammarians get more say then maybe 'recommend _someone_ to do something' may become formally grammatical at some point in time!


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## london calling

PollyKate said:


> My question is not whether _recommend + object + to + infinitive_ is correct, but who the '_Some people_' might be who do consider it incorrect
> ("*Some people*_ consider this use to be incorrect...")._
> 
> Would these people be strict grammarians?


Probably the only way you're going to find an answer to that is if you check out some prescriptive grammar books. Otherwise Raymond Murphy's 'Grammar in Use' is quite useful (but it is not prescriptive).


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## Loob

PollyKate said:


> My question is not whether _recommend + object + to + infinitive_ is correct, but who the '_Some people_' might be who do consider it incorrect
> ("*Some people*_ consider this use to be incorrect...")._


They're ordinary people, PollyKate! I've said on several occasions in these forums that I use the construction _recommend someone to do something; _there have always been other contributors who have said they find the  usage strange.

It's probably simplest just to avoid it.


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## Edinburgher

Loob said:


> I use the construction _recommend someone to do something;_


Ah, but what does it mean?  In particular, who does the above "someone" refer to?

I can recommend *a good mechanic* to repair your car engine (here you would be the person to whom I am making the recommendation),
but if Jane asks me what some word means, I wouldn't say that I'd recommend *her* to look it up in a dictionary (where "her" would refer to Jane). Would you?


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## PollyKate

*Manfy*, I was taught that recommend does have this third - and for me, ugly - structure, which _suggest_ doesn't. However, in nearly all the FCE and Advanced material I teach, only the two structures they share are given.
(BTW, could you give me an example of the colloquial speech version of _recommend_ you mentioned?)

*London/ Manfy*, I think I'm going to have to lean more towards descriptive grammar when advising my student, and not feed our mutual need for definitive rules.


Frustratingly, I've just visited the Oxford _Living_ Dictionary at this link: recommend | Definition of recommend in English by Oxford Dictionaries .

In point 1.2's _more example sentences_, a number of passive forms are used, so the use of _to + infinitive_ seems grammatical.

_‘Tourists *are recommended to stay* a week rather than returning on the same day.’_

Also, when followed by a negative clause, it also seems correct:

_‘I would strongly *recommend readers not to take* his words too seriously.'_

But the following sentence simply sounds wrong to me:

_We strongly _*recommend you girls*_ out there _*to treat *_yourself to something nice for Christmas.’  _Yuk.


*Anyway*, I've just remembered that it's Saturday evening in my part of the world, so I'm off out. 
Thanks, everyone!

Speak soon,
Polly


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## london calling

Edinburgher said:


> I can recommend *a good mechanic* to repair your car engine (here you would be the person to whom I am making the recommendation),
> but if Jane asks me what some word means, I wouldn't say that I'd recommend *her* to look it up in a dictionary (where "her" would refer to Jane). Would you?




I can recommend *a good mechanic* to repair your car.

I'd recommend *her* to look it up in a dictionary.
No, I'd advise Jane to look it up in the dictionary or recommend a good dictionary.


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## Loob

Edinburgher said:


> ... but if Jane asks me what some word means, I wouldn't say that I'd recommend *her* to look it up in a dictionary (where "her" would refer to Jane). Would you?


Yes, I would - and it's precisely that usage that PollyKate is asking about.
You and l_c are two more "ordinary people" who find it strange.

That's why I'd advise PollyKate's student to avoid it.


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## Thomas Tompion

But you say, Loob, that you use it yourself, as do I, incidentally.  

Do you really also find it strange?  I must have missed something.


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## Loob

Thomas Tompion said:


> But you say, Loob, that you use it yourself, as do I, incidentally.


Yes, and we're not alone - I've noticed other native English speakers here using it.


Thomas Tompion said:


> Do you really also find it strange?  I must have missed something.


No, I don't find it at all strange, myself. But I've learnt from previous forum discussions that many people do find it strange. 

That being the case, I think it would be wise for PollyKate's student to avoid it, despite the fact that it appears in usage dictionaries. If PollyKate's student uses it to an audience of native English speakers, it seems likely that many of her listeners will see it as incorrect and assume it's a non-native-speaker error.


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## Thomas Tompion

Thanks for clearing that up, Loob.

It was this comment 





Loob said:


> You and l_c are two more "ordinary people" who find it strange.


which had me foxed.


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## Loob

Ah, I see....

That was a reference to my post 32, where PollyKate had asked "Who are the 'some people' who consider this usage incorrect - are they strict grammarians?" And I'd answered "They're ordinary people".


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## PollyKate

Thank you all so much! It's been such a great help having other people's opinions on this particular verb.

*Loob*, I've taken a screenshot of your post 38 and will show it triumphantly to my student, it completely confirms what I've already told her, but I left that class feeling decidedly unsure of myself.

PK


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## bennymix

Edinburgher said:


> Ah, but what does it mean?  In particular, who does the above "someone" refer to?
> 
> I can recommend *a good mechanic* to repair your car engine (here you would be the person to whom I am making the recommendation),
> but if Jane asks me what some word means, I wouldn't say that I'd recommend *her* to look it up in a dictionary (where "her" would refer to Jane). Would you?



I agree with Edinburger and london.   But I'd argue the some people are going to drop 'to' in front of 'her', where it belongs.    It's based on the idea that "Give him the book" is passable; no 'to'.  The complete sentence is "I'd recommend to her to look it up...."    Thomas and loob are OK with dropping 'to';  others of us have qualms.   Note that in rapid speech, "I'd recommend t'er to look it up...."  *sounds* almost the same as "I'd recommend her to look it up."


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## Thomas Tompion

There are plenty of examples of _to recommend someone to do something_, in the sense Loob and I have been talking about, in the American Corpus.


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## Loob

I'm intrigued by the fact that you're happy with "I'd recommend to her to look it up", benny: that sounds very strange to me.


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> I'm intrigued by the fact that you're happy with "I'd recommend to her to look it up", benny: that sounds very strange to me.


I've never heard anyone use that formula.

I couldn't find anything like it in the American Corpus.


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## bennymix

Thomas Tompion said:


> I've never heard anyone use that formula.
> 
> I couldn't find anything like it in the American Corpus.



There are examples {_recommend to someone + infinitive = something they are to do_}, though some are rather hoary.


*Cardiovascular Case Studies : Case study level 1 – Angina - Pharma ...*

Sep 15, 2012 - What can you _recommend to him to_ help manage his headache? 5. What advice would you give Mr AG in relation to his smoking? Answers

=============

The Parliamentary Debates (official Report(s)) ...

1812

He would only add, that if he had any influence with his hon, friend, he would _recommend
to him _to withdraw his motion, or at least not to press it to a division.


----

Synology NAS with Elephant Drive - Spiceworks Community

Mar 16, 2017 - My buddy just bought a Synology NAS and I recommend to him to use Elephant drive for the cloud backups since we use on a couple NAS's ...


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## Loob

Your first example looks like a different construction, benny: _recommend something to someone._


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