# Норвежцы - pronunciation



## tamah

Hi friends
How do you pronounce 'Норвежцы' ? I looked in for some tips in the forum and found this thread ... http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=8889222
So I know how to pronounce 'ж' but how do you pronounce 'ж' and 'ц' together? 
Is it 'norvezhtsy'? with 't' audible? 
Thank you


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## Selyd

Hi!
In 'Норвежцы' 't' is'nt audible - "жц".


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## Maroseika

There is no sound ж there, ж before ц is always voiceless: [нарвешцы]


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## Sobakus

Selyd said:


> Hi!
> In 'Норвежцы' 't' is'nt audible - "жц".



For languages without ц sound it's usually transliterated as ts. It isn't норвежсы after all, is it?


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## tamah

Maroseika said:


> There is no sound ж there, ж before ц is always voiceless: [нарвешцы]


Is it because 'ж' is hard and 'ц' is soft? 
Pardon me but I am somewhat confused about the soft and hard, voiced and voiceless part of Russian pronunciation. I hope to improve it with more and more  practice.

Thank you for your help friends


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## Maroseika

tamah said:


> Is it because 'ж' is hard and 'ц' is soft?


No, this is because ж is voiced and ц is voiceless (as for the hardness/softness, both ж and ц are hard).
 For Russians it is difficult to pronounce voised sound before the voiceless and usually (or maybe even always) it is assimilated, i.e. becomes voiceless:
норвежцы - [нарве*шц*ы]
ра*сс*вет but ра*зб*ой (in this case assimilation is even fixed in orthoghraphy, because etymologically in both cases there should be prefix раз-, not рас- )
обставить [а*пс*тавить]
and so on...


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## tamah

Maroseika said:


> No, this is because ж is voiced and ц is voiceless (as for the hardness/softness, both ж and ц are hard).


Again I made a mistake about reading 'ц' and 'Ч' ... sorry. Yes you are right 'ц' is hard. 
Thank you Maroseika I got it now


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## rushalaim

Maroseika said:


> There is no sound ж there, ж before ц is always voiceless: [нарвешцы]


I always pronounce sound "жэ" in this word!
"norve-zh(*ж*)-ts(*ц*)ы" 
And one more word: "петербур*ж*е*ц*".


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## Natalisha

rushalaim said:


> I always pronounce sound "жэ" in this word!
> "norve-zh(*ж*)-ts(*ц*)ы"
> And one more word: "петербур*ж*е*ц*".


It's very difficult to pronounce [ж] which is followed by a voiceless sound, so I'm with Maroseika here.
Yes, we say "петербур*ж*е*ц", "норвежец" (because ж is  followed by a vowel), but "норве[ш]цы" and "петербур[ш]цы".*


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## rushalaim

Natalisha said:


> It's very difficult to pronounce [ж] which is followed by a voiceless sound, so I'm with Maroseika here.
> Yes, we say "петербур*ж*е*ц", "норвежец" (because ж is followed by a vowel), but "норве[ш]цы" and "петербур[ш]цы".*


*
Hei, "норвежцы", "петербуржцы" - the sound "жэ" follows after vowel "e" moreover vowel "e" is stressed! Which one "voiceless sound" you name?
For me it's very easy to pronounce "петербуржцы"!*


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## morzh

Natalisha права, я думаю.


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## Natalisha

rushalaim said:


> Which one "voiceless sound" you name?



I meant the sound [ц].


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## Maroseika

rushalaim said:


> I always pronounce sound "жэ" in this word!
> "norve-zh(*ж*)-ts(*ц*)ы"


I'm afraid this is just phisiologically impossible, at least without a stop or an intermediate vowel, because you have to do something with the voice you are using for [ж] before producing occlusive voiceless [ц]. Voice flow cannot dissappear gradually, because you need it for [ж], and it cannot just interrupt because there is no stop or at least shwa between [ж] and [ц].


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## rushalaim

Maroseika said:


> at least shwa between [ж] and [ц].


Which one of two shva d'u mean?


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid this is just phisiologically impossible, at least without a stop or an intermediate vowel, because you have to do something with the voice you are using for [ж] before producing occlusive voiceless [ц]. Voice flow cannot dissappear gradually, because you need it for [ж], and it cannot just interrupt because there is no stop or at least shwa between [ж] and [ц].




My point exactly.

However I was trying to find some corroborating write-ups, and even on msu.ru dpt. of philology (http://www.philol.msu.ru/~fonetica/orfoepija/tabl/), orphoepy page, and in other places (I searched far and wide) there is NONE. No one wants to address "zhts". Maybe because it is so rarely encountered, like in "конькобежцы/норвежцы", but they just haven't address it. Nor do orphoepic dictionaries. Beats me, why.

It is natural for 'ц" to modify preceding consonants: some disappear (д/т, like in "аццтой", "аццы", "аццкий", "идти аццеркве", "нипаццынзурный", "паццепить"), some soften (апцылаваца(обцеловаться), жирипца(жеребца), ГУЛАКца(гулагца, р.п.), Гарафца(Горовца, р.п.)). it is then natural to expect for "ж" to also soften.

I think. But can't find it. The rest of consonant combination rules are easy to find.


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## morzh

He probably meant (in case you really stress "ж") "норвежЫца". This schwa really wants to occur here, if you do it.


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## rushalaim

Why not "норвеж*Е*ца"?
I mean this shva depends on speed. You speak quickly usually and pronounce "...жц..." I speak usually slowly (location influence) and pronounce "...жЕц...".


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## morzh

rushalaim said:


> Why not "норвеж*Е*ца"?
> I mean this shva depends on speed. You speak quickly usually and pronounce "...жц..." I speak usually slowly (location influence) and pronounce "...жЕц...".




I did not intend to specify exactly what kind of sound there will be. I tried to pronounce it several times: it is either "Э" or "Ы", or maybe "E". That's why it is schwa - it is a muffled sound. Go figure....it's not even important.


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> it is then natural to expect for "ж" to also soften.


I'm sure you meant devocalize.


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## Ben Jamin

tamah said:


> Hi friends
> How do you pronounce 'Норвежцы' ? I looked in for some tips in the forum and found this thread ... http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=8889222
> So I know how to pronounce 'ж' but how do you pronounce 'ж' and 'ц' together?
> Is it 'norvezhtsy'? with 't' audible?
> Thank you


ц =  צץ ,   not t+s 
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadi


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## phosphore

Ben Jamin said:


> ц = צץ , not t+s


 
In modern Hebrew, Tsade represents a voiceless alveolar affricate (IPA: [/ts/]). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsade#Pronunciation

It is not physiologically impossible to pronounce [жц] but it is unlikely and for a Slavic speaker it requires a certain effort. In Russian the opposition between voiced and voiceless obstruents is neutralised before another obstruent, so before a voiced consonant even a phonologically voiceless consonant becomes voiced and vice versa, and in the word-final position, where they are all voiceless. So the group <жц> is certainly pronounced [шц], as Maroseika said at the very beginning of the thread.


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## Maroseika

phosphore said:


> It is not physiologically impossible to pronounce [жц] but it is unlikely and for a Slavic speaker it requires a certain effort.


Yes, I agree, this is still possible but in this case [ж] has to be much more intensive that it occurs in Slavic languages.


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## morzh

Yes, efforts.....we, "Slavic" speakers sometimes put out way more than necessary an effort: say, the name "Lincoln" (you know, the Honest Abe guy), while pronounced by Americans somewhat like "Лынк'н", by "Slavic" speakers actually is pronounced the way it is spelled:"Линк'льн" or even "Линкольн", sometimes even stressing the last syllable to articulate the "o".

So what's some measly "жц" to us, "Slavic speakers"...child play.


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