# All Slavic languages: my soul and my body (same possessive pronoun for different genders?)



## beclija

_Split from here._

So, in Polish you can say "moja dusza i ciało" even though dusza is feminine and ciało neuter, and even though here "moja"(f) refers also to "ciało"(n)?
Interesting, the parallel in German is impossible. You have to say "meine Seele und mein Körper", both "meine(f) Seele(f) und Körper(m)" and "mein(m) Seele und Körper" sound wrong. 
How about the other Slavic languages? I am presently not sure if you can say "moja duša i t(ij)elo" in Croatian/Serbian. I wouldn't, but that might be an interference from German. 

Also, we've long strolled off-topic: The original poster needed a translation from Polish to English, in order to understand a phrase he or she encountered. This has been done in GyörgyMS's post. Everything that has been written since is not what the person asked...


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## arturolczykowski

beclija said:


> Also, we've long strolled off-topic: The original poster needed a translation from Polish to English, in order to understand a phrase he or she encountered. This has been done in GyörgyMS's post. Everything that has been written since is not what the person asked...




I'm afraid I can't agree. GyorgyMS's post is just a literal translation and the phrase is not often heard in colloquial Polish. AndrzejR sugessted a more colloquial phrase which you meet quite often in spoken and written Polish. 

So, not everything that has been written since GyorgyMS's post is not what the person asked...


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## Athaulf

beclija said:


> So, in Polish you can say "moja dusza i ciało" even though dusza is feminine and ciało neuter, and even though here "moja"(f) refers also to "ciało"(n)?
> Interesting, the parallel in German is impossible. You have to say "meine Seele und mein Körper", both "meine(f) Seele(f) und Körper(m)" and "mein(m) Seele und Körper" sound wrong.
> How about the other Slavic languages? I am presently not sure if you can say "moja duša i t(ij)elo" in Croatian/Serbian. I wouldn't, but that might be an interference from German.



In Croatian, it sounds perfectly right to me either with or without the duplication of the possessive pronoun. In colloquial language, I would likely avoid the duplication. 

I actually didn't know that it's mandatory to duplicate the pronoun in German in cases like this. But now I'm curious what happens with adjectives in similar situations? For example, in Croatian you'd say _hrvatska Vlada i Sabor_; the adjective agrees with the first noun and is normally not duplicated (duplication is still grammatically correct, but sounds long-winded). Can you say _kroatische Regierung und Parlament_ in German? Or do you have to duplicate the adjective to agree with _Parlament_ separately?



> Also, we've long strolled off-topic: The original poster needed a translation from Polish to English, in order to understand a phrase he or she encountered. This has been done in GyörgyMS's post. Everything that has been written since is not what the person asked...


I don't think our moderator will mind as long as the discussion is on-topic for the forum. It will just likely get moved to a new thread.


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## beclija

As far as I can see, no one ever asked for a better way to say this. moh07 needed help in understanding a Polish phrase, which obviously wasn't good Polish, but he or she did not, by what we now, attempt to formulate an own text in Polish. 

But i like off-topic discussions, so don't bother...


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## beclija

Athaulf said:


> I actually didn't know that it's mandatory to duplicate the pronoun in German in cases like this. But now I'm curious what happens with adjectives in similar situations? For example, in Croatian you'd say _hrvatska Vlada i Sabor_; the adjective agrees with the first noun and is normally not duplicated (duplication is still grammatically correct, but sounds long-winded). Can you say _kroatische Regierung und Parlament_ in German? Or do you have to duplicate the adjective to agree with _Parlament_ separately?


It is not a very strong prohibition and with googling you'll easily find counterexamples, but it is definitely preferred to duplicate the pronoun. In case of adjectives, you wouldn't usually duplicate it, but use the article: "die kroatische Regierung und das Parlament". My interpretation is that, formally, the adjective modifies only "Regierung", while the fact that it also applies to "Parlament" is inferred, but not actually expressed grammatically. Interestingly, when the two nouns have the same gender, it is OK (and preferred, though certainly not mandatory) to omit the second article, as in "die kroatische Regierung und Opposition", so we have kind of a minimal pair. 

When the nouns have the same gender, the adjective modifies both ([die A [N und N]]), when the have different gender, it modifies only the first, and the true scope is inferred without help from grammar ([[die A N] und [das N]]). 

Now I realise that the same would work for the Slavic languages, only you wouldn't see the differnce as you don't have articles. Makes me wonder what the situation is in Macedonian and Bulgarian...


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## Jana337

In Czech, I'd avoid repetition in many situations as well.
_He talked to my brother and my sister._
_- Mluvil s mým bratrem a (s) mou sestrou.
- Mluvil s mým bratrem a sestrou._
The meaning is the same and no one would find it difficult to understand whose sister she is.

I can usually speak and write in German quite naturally and effortlessly but this is one of the things I really have to concentrate on.


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## GyörgyMS

Ok, I also felt a littel uncomfortable with both the Polish sentence and its translation into English. But finally I decided to translate this sentence as close as possible to the original. I even googled the English version and found some hits. But neither the Polish nor the English one would have been mine.


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## Etcetera

In Russian, the plural form of the possessive pronoun is normally used. 
I'll use Jana's example. In Russian, it's possible to say:
- Он говорил с моим братом и моей сестрой.
- Он говорил с моими братом и сестрой.


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## Jana337

Etcetera said:


> In Russian, the plural form of the possessive pronoun is normally used.
> I'll use Jana's example. In Russian, it's possible to say:
> - Он говорил с моим братом и моей сестрой.
> - Он говорил с моими братом и сестрой.


Oh that's weird!  Would you use it for soul and body as well?


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## beclija

Does it sound wrong to you to say it with a singular pronoun without duplication (Он говорил с моим братом и сестрой) or is it just not the most natural way to say it?

In Croatian you can also say "govorio je s mojim bratom i sestrom", but I need a native speaker to tell me what that shows us because _mojim _can be both _моим _and _моими. _


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## amnariel

beclija said:


> In Croatian you can also say "govorio je s mojim bratom i sestrom", but I need a native speaker to tell me what that shows us because _mojim _can be both _моим _and _моими. _



As much as I recall this section of grammar  gender of possesive pronoun, when used for plural is determined by gender of first subject (noun). One can also use *mojima *but that is not completely gramatically correct form, though I think one can hear it often in everyday conversation.


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## Q-cumber

*Russian:
*
You can say "moja duša i telo" exaclty in the same way - "моя душа и тело". More formal expression would be "моя душа и моё тело" ("moja duša i mojo telo").  Душа - soul - belongs to the female gender in Russian; тело - body - belongs to the "neutral gender" - оно (it).

Another possible variant is "мои душа и тело"  ("moji duša telo"). "Мои" (moji) means "belonging to me, plural".


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## Maroseika

Etcetera said:


> In Russian, the plural form of the possessive pronoun is normally used.
> I'll use Jana's example. In Russian, it's possible to say:
> - Он говорил с моим братом и моей сестрой.
> - Он говорил с моими братом и сестрой.


The latter one seems to me too literal for normal live speech, though grammatically correct.
I'd rather ignore strict grammatical rule and just say "...с моим братом и сестрой" (or even vice versa!).
But in fact I'm not sure there is any real infringement of grammar: first, masculine possesive refers to the brother, but at the same time it just marks which sister I'm talking about further, i.e. it just introduces context.


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## beclija

So that would be the same system I suggested for German when an adjective modifies the first noun, wouldn't it? The interesting difference is that in German this way to circumnavigate the problem is available only with adjectives. With possessives, you more or less have to duplicate them, at least according to my "Sprachgefühl".

Some sample google figures:
*3*  for *"mit meinem Bruder und Schwester"*
*727* for *"mit meinem Bruder und meiner Schwester"
**19.300* for *"mit meinen Geschwistern"*

"mit"=с=with, the rest should be understandable *g*
The most natural way to say it is to use "Geschwister", "siblings", so the results might not be very telling altogether. When you google the same phrase in the nominative, you get a very confusing picture: For "mein Bruder und (meine) Schwester", you actually get more hits for the version without duplication, contrary to what I am claiming. When you reverse the order to "meine Schwester und (mein) Bruder" the results are as I would predict them - 60,200 with and only 1,200 without duplication. I don't really have an explanation, but I guess the reason might be that saying "mein Bruder und (meine) Schwester" is slightly clumsy to start with when you have the much simpler alternative "meine Geschwister" (with much higher scores), so people using it are possibly not perfect in German. Or maybe "mein Bruder und Schwester" has somewhat of an idiomatic status, which "meine Schwester und Bruder" doesn't have. 
To return to the original example: While my intuition of mandatory doubling of the pronoun in "Meine Seele und mein Körper" is largely confirmed, both me and google (*g*) find "Mein Herz und Seele" (=moje srce i duša) much more acceptable than "Meine Seele und Körper" - I guess because "Herz und Seele" is idiomatic while "Seele und Körper" isn't.


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## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> The latter one seems to me too literal for normal live speech, though grammatically correct.
> I'd rather ignore strict grammatical rule and just say "...с моим братом и сестрой" (or even vice versa!).


Indeed. I'd say it is common to *omit* any possessive pronouns, but the first one.  

*beclija* The German examples look quite similar, yet I don't think any  modification takes place here, just an omittance.


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## Kolan

Q-cumber said:


> *Russian: ...*
> Another possible variant is "мои душа и тело" ("moji duša telo"). "Мои" (moji) means "belonging to me, plural".


I prefer that second form of plural, because it sounds more precise and correct grammatically.

Of course, you may say "моя душа и моё тело", that sounds more formal and less poetical.

The form "моя душа и тело" sounds to me like the previous one, where "моё" is omitted and understood, "моя душа и (моё) тело", therefore, pretty much colloquial.


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## Kriviq

In Bulgarian you can say it in several ways:
- моите душа и тяло,
- моята душа и моето тяло,
- моята душа и тялото ми,
- тялото и душата ми.
The definite marker should be associated with either the pronoun or the noun.


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## beclija

Kriviq said:


> In Bulgarian you can say it in several ways:
> - моите душа и тяло,


This would be a plural pronoun, wouldn't it?


Kriviq said:


> - моята душа и моето тяло,
> - моята душа и тялото ми,
> - тялото и душата ми.
> The definite marker should be associated with either the pronoun or the noun.


Thank you very much for your explanation, but I am still curious. Which of these would sound most natural in everyday speech and/or most advisable in formal contexts? Is it also possible to say моята душа и тялото without "ми"?
And to come back to Athaulfs related question about adjectives in similar constructions - how would you say "the Bulgarian government and parliament"? (Assuming that "parliament" and "government" have different genders in Bulgarian as they do in Croatian and German - choose some other two words if that is not the case.) And what would be the corresponding construction if the two nouns have the same gender? 

Thank you for your patience!
Bečlija


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## Kriviq

beclija said:


> This would be a plural pronoun, wouldn't it?



The plural pronoun is correct; however, if you said *моята душа и тяло*, no one would pay attention as long as you synchronized  the  gender  of the  pronoun  with the gender of the first noun.



beclija said:


> Which of these would sound most natural in everyday speech and/or most advisable in formal contexts?



I`d prefer *душата и тялото ми* but it`d depend on the context.



beclija said:


> Is it also possible to say моята душа и тялото without "ми"?



You may say it in poetry.



beclija said:


> And to come back to Athaulfs related question about adjectives in similar constructions - how would you say "the Bulgarian government and parliament"? (Assuming that "parliament" and "government" have different genders in Bulgarian as they do in Croatian and German - choose some other two words if that is not the case.) And what would be the corresponding construction if the two nouns have the same gender?



The same as above - the pronoun should be in the plural:
- българските правителство и парламент - correct,
- българското правителство и парламент - incorrect but accepted.
In the second example *българското* and *правителство* are in the neuter and *парламент* is in the masculine.


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## beclija

Kriviq said:


> The same as above - the pronoun should be in the plural:
> - българските правителство и парламент - correct,
> - българското правителство и парламент - incorrect but accepted.
> In the second example *българското* and *правителство* are in the neuter and *парламент* is in the masculine.


Would it also be possible to say: българското правителство и парламентот? (I am asking because that would be the closest parallel to the German structure.)


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## Kriviq

beclija said:


> Would it also be possible to say: българското правителство и парламентот? (I am asking because that would be the closest parallel to the German structure.)



Yeah, *българското правителство и парламентът* is correct.


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## beclija

Thank you very much, I think I have no more questions on the topic. Although I am not quite sure if that helps me to understand the difference between German and the Slavic languages in this matter.


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## cecoll

beclija said:


> Would it also be possible to say: българското правителство и парламентът? (I am asking because that would be the closest parallel to the German structure.)


 
Yes it could be correct. but if you say "българското правителство и парламенатът* (на Сърбия*...)" for example...
If you don't specify which parlament is it, it doesn't become clear if thats still the bulgarian parliament or not...Therefore for me the correct form is "българските правителство и парламент" or "праветелството и парламенът" since we know they're both bulgarian! Once you put a definite article to a word like "*the* parliament" i.e. парламентът, this means you and everyone else are aware of which parliament exactly you're talkin about. So if you live in Serbia and you say "The bulgarian government and the parliament" it would probably mean the Serbian parliament. However, I wouldn't call that an exmple with a possessive pronoun.

As for the term "my body and soul" is more a poetic expression, therefore "Моята душа и тяло" is totally acceptable! If we switch to a less poetic "Моят нос и глава" (My nose and my head) (нос- masculine глава-feminine).

"*Моят* нос и глава" is ok, although _моят_ is referred to _нос_ only.
"*Моят* нос и главата *ми*" _*(rare) *_but used- usually to compare or contrast two objects. 
"*Моят* нос и *моята* глава" _*(very rare) -*_used when: we want to underline that they're mine or in order to be more clear when explaining something. (моят refers to нос, моята- to глава)
"Носът и главата *ми*" is ok too, since _*ми*_ can refer to each noun (no matter its gender) _нос_ and _глава._
But if we're talking about living people is more likely to say "*Моята* сетра и брат *ми*" (Mein Bruder und meine Schwester), or "Брат *ми* и сестра *ми*", but very rarely used like in German "*Моята* сетра и *моят* брат" *(very rare)* (more likely to be used when telling a story or a tale). 

I hope you can see the difference now!  

So, yes I guess in Bulgarian and other Slavic languages in everyday speech somehow we got used to skip the possesive pronoun of the second noun, because...

we know its gender by heart, and that makes our speech flow a little bit easier.
after we use the frst possesive pronoun refered to the first noun, we see no point in adding another possesive pronoun for the second one (the fact we miss it explains we're talkin about my, her, their...stuff)
Of course every language has its rules, and German has its strict rules too to add der, die das and mein, meine to each noun in a sentence. I am not quite sure if my explanations above go by the book, but this is how we make use our language in everyday speech.


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