# 别人



## Asadullah

Is the second word in 别人 pronounced with tone 2 or without a tone? In other words, is it pronounced biérén or biéren?


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## James Bates

It depends. If it means "someone else", it is pronounced biérén. If it means "other people", it is pronounced biéren. What was the context in which you encountered this word?


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## Asadullah

不要介入别人的私生活。


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## James Bates

I guess it could mean either "someone else" or "other people" in 不要介入别人的私生活。so both pronunciations would be acceptable. I wonder what the native speakers think.


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## SuperXW

I would say the difference in meaning is too subtle to be discussed, if there is any.
The choice is mostly based on regional accent or personal habit. Both tones are acceptable.


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## James Bates

I don't think so. I don't think you could say biérén in the following two sentences:

别人都同意，就你一个人反对。
他只想到自己，从来不考虑别人。

You would have to say biéren instead.

On the other hand, you could not say biéren in the following sentence:

家里就我一个人，没有别人。

You would have to say biérén instead.


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## fyl

I don't see the difference, either.
You can definitely use bie2ren2 in 别人都同意，就你一个人反对 and 他只想到自己，从来不考虑别人, or use bie2ren in 家里就我一个人，没有别人. I see no problem.


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## brofeelgood

There's a paper titled 《*輕聲詞和輕聲詞教學*》 which discusses the change in definition of some words when certain characters are pronounced with a soft tone.

別人﹕自己或某人以外的人。讀原調是指另外的人。 ← This tallies with what James said in #6.

But personally, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I heard either version of 人 in any of those sentences. And in some regions, like Taiwan for example, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who pronounces it like that (in the soft-tone).


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## darren8221

brofeelgood said:


> But personally, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I heard either version of 人 in any of those sentences. And in some regions, like Taiwan for example, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who pronounces it like that (in the soft-tone).



In Taiwan it's always pronounced biérén regardless of the meaning.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Having read those sentences in #6 many times I find out that it's more natural for me to read as what James said...

Specifically, I will think it's normal if someone speaks the three sentences as he said, and think it's abnormal if someone doesn't do as he said. I mean, the ones who say them differently from what James said pursue a unique affect by saying it in an unusual way.

别人都同意，就你一个人反对。
If someone uses a soft tone for 人, and if he drags the sound（拉长声？）, I will think he is in an arrogant state and shows his ascendancy.

家里就我一个人，没有别人。
if someone uses a second tone for 人, I will think he wants to stress the fact, or just because the regional difference.


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## Skatinginbc

James Bates said:


> I guess it could mean either "someone else" or "other people" in 不要介入别人的私生活。


I think the "rule" (if there is one) seems to go like this: 
Substitution Test ==> Substitute 别人 with 别的人/另外的人.  If the sentence still sounds idiomatic, then ren2 (原調) is preferred because 别人 actually contains two words: 别(的) + 人. If not, then 人 may be pronounced with a 輕聲 because 别人 is considered a single word, which cannot be separated with 的.  

家里只有我，没有别人 ren2 ==> 家里只有我，没有别的人 (very idiomatic) ==> 原調 is preferred. 

不要介入别人 ren 的私生活 ==> 不要介入别的人的私生活 (not idiomatic), 不要介入另外的人的私生活 (not idiomatic) ==> 輕聲 is preferred although 原調 is still acceptable.


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## fyl

Just checked 现代汉语词典 （第六版）, there are two meanings of 别人:
1. bie2ren2 [名] 另外的人：家里只有母亲和我，没有别人
2. bie2 *·*ren2 (the dot means it can be either the neutral tone or the second tone) [代] 人称代词。指自己或某人以外的人：别人都同意，就你一人反对 | 把方便让给别人，把困难留给自己

But frankly speaking, I have never noticed such differences in real life. It has taken me quite a long time to understand the difference between the two meanings, and I'm still not able to see it clearly, even with the substitution test ("别的人都同意" would sound good to me). Basically, 别人 can be substitute with 其他人 in all sentences concerned.



retrogradedwithwind said:


> 别人都同意，就你一个人反对。
> If someone uses a soft tone for 人, and if he drags the sound（拉长声？）, I will think he is in an arrogant state and shows his ascendancy.
> 家里就我一个人，没有别人。
> if someone uses a second tone for 人, I will think he wants to stress the fact, or just because the regional difference.


Do you mean one should use ren2 in the first sentence and ren5 in the second? This is the opposite


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## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> "别的人都同意" would sound good to me.


别的人都同意 does not sound natural to my ears.  If it is still not clear to you, you may try 另外的人 ==> *另外的人都同意*  It doesn't sound idiomatic, does it?  On the other hand, 家里只有母亲和我，没有别的人 sounds very natural.


fyl said:


> Basically, 别人 can be substitute with 其他人 in all sentences concerned.


That's why I did not recommend 其他人 as the substitute in my proposed test.  It behaves like 别人 with the same structural ambiguity.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> If it is still not clear to you, you may try 另外的人 ==> *另外的人都同意* It doesn't sound idiomatic, does it?


另外的人都同意 is not idiomatic indeed. However, the first meaning 家里只有母亲和我，没有另外的人 sounds unidiomatic too.


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## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> However, the first meaning 家里只有母亲和我，没有另外的人 sounds unidiomatic too.


The funny thing is: It sounds good to me in casual speech (although it would be considered "wordy" in formal writing.  This is different from 别的人都同意, which would be considered "wrong", not merely "wordy").  It just proves that we speak different dialects, indeed. 
BTW, I just did a quick google search with "没有另外的人" and yielded 387,000 results.  It shows that whatever dialect I'm speaking is _"_nonnegligible" (sizable).  And a google search with "别的人都同意" yielded only 3 results.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> BTW, I just did a quick google search with "没有另外的人" and yielded 387,000 results. It shows that whatever dialect I'm speaking is _"_nonnegligible" (sizable). And a google search with "别的人都同意" yielded only 3 results.


I got a similar number for "没有另外的人". However, if you click page 8 or 9 in the search result, it will become only ~80 results with a notice "_In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 82 already displayed."_ That means most results are duplications. In fact, even in the remaining ~80 results, some articles (e.g. "巴菲特称，没有另外的人可以取代Ajit") appear many times.
For "别的人都同意"，I think one of the reasons is that 同意 is a specific verb. If you replace it with another verb, you get another several results. I searched a bit on http://www.duxiu.com, there are many occurances of "别的人都" in published books:
"别的人都吓得跑开，只有司马光赶快拿起一块石头把缸砸破" by Taiwanese writer 刘墉
"别的人都噤若寒蝉，不敢正面同答。只有和坤朗声道管此事者负此责任" in《窥探 历史真相》
And "都" also makes the context very narrow. googling "别的人同意" yields 7 million results (becomes 11 results when get to page 2). 

Back to the topic, what confuses me is, how would one define the two meanings? They are both "other people" to me.
家里只有母亲和我，没有别人=家里只有母亲和我，没有除了母亲和我以外的人
别人都同意，就你一人反对=除了你以外的人都同意，就你一人反对
把方便让给别人，把困难留给自己=把方便让给除自己以外的人，把困难留给自己


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## Skatinginbc

Another substitution test: Substitute 别人 with 大家.
(1) 家里只有母亲和我，没有别人 (*大家).
(2) 别人(大家)都同意，就只有你反对.
(3) 把方便让给别人(大家)，把困难留给自己. (cf. 把困难留给自己，把方便让给大家).
The 别人 in (1) is definitely not the same as the one in (2) and (3).  What is the difference?  别人 as a pronoun refers to 除XX以外的(眾)人, whereas 别(的)人 refers to 另外的人.


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## retrogradedwithwind

虽然上面我那个回复有些张冠李戴，但我不准备改了……因为我发现我的语感已经崩坏……只能说我依然认为确实存在二声和轻声的区别，但是，我现在已经分不出来了，正如我面对包含包括那一对词时的感觉——本来区别就不大，关键是，即使原来觉得不对劲，但读多了竟然越读越顺……
我放弃……

另外，搜索时可以加引号

相信这帖子里的人都能读懂我这回复，就不翻译了……


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 但读多了竟然越读越顺……


That indeed happens: After reading many times a sentence that we initially think to be wrong, we may somehow get used to it and no longer think it is so bad.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> Another substitution test: Substitute 别人 with 大家.
> (1) 家里只有母亲和我，没有别人 (*大家).
> (2) 别人(大家)都同意，就只有你反对.
> (3) 把方便让给别人(大家)，把困难留给自己. (cf. 把困难留给自己，把方便让给大家).
> The 别人 in (1) is definitely not the same as the one in (2) and (3).  What is the difference?  别人 as a pronoun refers to 除XX以外的(眾)人, whereas 别(的)人 refers to 另外的人.


大家 is indeed a good way to distinguish them though I still don't quite get why "other people" (noun) don't fit in (2) and (3). I'll think about it more when I get a time.


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## Skatinginbc

我本是中意你的, 可是你出國了, 所以我就把職位讓給別人了(=別的人, 另外的人; 大家). ==> 職位只有一個, 更重要的是, 該句的主旨是要解釋為什麼沒讓給你, 因此不是你而是另有其人的概念, 在此是切題的。

我決定退隱山林, 把財產捐給別人 ==> "別"字可省, 可說"把財產捐給人", 甚至"把財產捐給大家", 可見另有其人的概念在此非必要。若"把財產捐給別的人"的話, 我會認為有語病, 因為"除了自己以外"在此是廢話。

我死後不會留給孩子一分錢, 會把所有的財產都捐給別人 (= 別的人, 另外的人) ==> 不是孩子而是另有其人.


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