# のではなかった



## KaleNovice

「お前だち　帰ったのではなかったのか？」You guys didn't go home?
「女の子になりたいなんて　願うんじゃなかった！」I should have never wished to be a girl!

First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, 「のではなかった」and　「んじゃなかった」are the same thing.

So judging by the two sentences,「のではなかった」 could simply mean "didn't" as in the 1st sentence and "should not have" as in the 2nd sentence.
If without any prior context, what could the sentence「願うんじゃなっかたのか」mean? Could it possibly mean 
"Maybe I shouldn't have wished it?"(self questioning)
or
"You didn't make a wish?" ?

Thank you in advance!


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## karlalou

KaleNovice said:


> First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, 「のではなかった」and　「んじゃなかった」are the same thing.


That is correct. んじゃなかった is the casual version of のではなかった.


KaleNovice said:


> 「お前だち　帰ったのではなかったのか？」You guys didn't go home?
> 「女の子になりたいなんて　願うんじゃなかった！」I should have never wished to be a girl!





KaleNovice said:


> So judging by the two sentences,「のではなかった」 could simply mean "didn't" as in the 1st sentence and "should not have" as in the 2nd sentence.


Right.
The direct translation of "You guys didn't go home?" is お前たち、帰らなかったのか？

「お前だち　帰ったのではなかったのか？」is like saying, "Wasn't it that you guys have gone home?"
The speaker found that the noun clause made by の was't what they did. It's just a matter of style. 帰らなかったのか is more concise, but sometimes we want to say longer one in some reason.

The direct translation of "should not have" is べきではなかった.
すべきではなかった is good, but するんじゃなかった as well as しなきゃよかった are the expressions colloquially used.
The direct translation of 願うんじゃなかった is "It was not the thing to wish for."
The direct translation of 願わなきゃよかった is ... "If I haven't wished for it, it should have been better."? or "I wish I haven't wished for that."



KaleNovice said:


> If without any prior context, what could the sentence「願うんじゃなっかたのか」mean? Could it possibly mean
> "Maybe I shouldn't have wished it?"(self questioning)
> or
> "You didn't make a wish?" ?


願うんじゃなかったのか without any prior context? You mean not as a regret?
As a self questioning.., "I was to wish for that, wasn't I?" ...?
I think it's still a regret, though it's regretting because 'I' didn't do.

Oh, I know why. That's because it says のか.

When asking 'you', yes, I think it says "You didn't make a wish?" or "You were going to wish for that, weren't you?"


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## KaleNovice

Thank you karlalou for your reply! 


> 「お前だち　帰ったのではなかったのか？」is like saying, "Wasn't it that you guys have gone home?"


Do 「帰ったのではなかったのか」and「帰ったではなかったのか」mean the same thing? With and without の？



> Oh, I know why. That's because it says のか.


So let's say, when the subject is "you", would the meaning of the sentences be as follows
願うんじゃなかったのか = You didn't make a wish? 
願うんじゃなかった= It wasn't the thing to wish for/You shouldn't have wished for that.

The 「のか」 actually has a major impact on the meaning of the sentence right?


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## 810senior

It sounds to me weird to decipher 願うんじゃなかった as _you shouldn't have wished for that_.
It needs the first-person subject if it takes on regrets or something that would have been beneficial to do.


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## KaleNovice

Oh so it requires first-person subject for regrets to take effect ! Things are much clearer now thank you !


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## frequency

810senior said:


> It sounds to me weird to decipher 願うんじゃなかった as _you shouldn't have wished for that_.


Well, that's okay to me as _*I* shouldn't have wished~_. That is one of ways of 願うべきではなかった。


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## 810senior

frequency said:


> Well, that's okay to me as _*I* shouldn't have wished~_. That is one of ways of 願うべきではなかった。


I agree that way goes right and doesn't cause any problem. It's also okay by me. 

What I wanted to point out is when it comes to the 2nd/3rd person, _you_, _he _or _she_ and if that's the cause it doesn't seem to work right as above.


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## karlalou

KaleNovice said:


> Do 「帰ったのではなかったのか」and「帰ったではなかったのか」mean the same thing? With and without の？


Well, I find it's hard to make out what 帰ったではなかったのか is saying. We never omit the の, even the casual ん.

Though if it's 帰っ*たではないか* (colloquially 帰ったじゃないか), it works, but is used to counter someone saying different thing. Here the speaker is *sure *about the fact that someone ’帰った’. (This works with の(ん) as well: 帰っ*たのではないか*（帰ったんじゃないか）, and this can be *also used for a guess*: they have gone home, haven't they?. As a guess, の（ん）is required. However, if it's 帰っ*たのではないのか*, it says just the same as 帰っ*たのではなかったのか*: we can see that someone's going home is a past event, and it seems we don't matter if it's stated as a past fact or a present fact: I just feel ないのか sounds lighter than なかったのか.)

帰ったのではないのか／帰ったのではなかったのか can be also a guess, but it can mean something is different from what is expected as we've seen.

Anyway, it seems we never say 帰ったではないのか nor 帰ったではなかったのか, except when there's a need to say 「帰った」ではないのか or 「帰った」ではなかったのか like when trying to figure out what the word is/was.



> The 「のか」 actually has a major impact on the meaning of the sentence right?


Right. It makes the sentence a question. The negative questions are tricky, though, when it's in the native tongue, the meaning is just so apparent before thinking anything.


KaleNovice said:


> So let's say, when the subject is "you", would the meaning of the sentences be as follows
> 願うんじゃなかったのか = You didn't make a wish?
> 願うんじゃなかった= It wasn't the thing to wish for/You shouldn't have wished for that.


These are correct.
Just 願うんじゃなかったのか is slightly more than a simple question of "You didn't make a wish?". It sounds more like saying it's different from what has been expected. Virtually so does "You didn't do it?", but I don't think we say のではなかったのか／んじゃなかったのか without any context of expectation (or doubt).

Oh, forgot to mention that, to mean "It wasn't the thing for you to wish for", we usually at least want ね at the end: （そんなことは）願うんじゃなかったね. Or change it to （それは）願うもんじゃなかったんだよ.


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## frequency

おまえたち、帰らなかったのか？
おまえたち、帰ったのではない(の)か？
おまえたち、帰ったのではなかった(の)か？
They are all okay. You can omit (の). As you kale says, you can say おまえたち、帰ったんじゃなかったのか？
He's asking if they went back or not (They didn't. So he's asking them). It's different to your second one "I shouldn't have wished~". Your OP is right:


KaleNovice said:


> 「女の子になりたいなんて　願うんじゃなかった！」I should have never wished to be a girl!






KaleNovice said:


> If without any prior context, what could the sentence「願うんじゃなっかたのか」mean?


This is a question. You can say 1) when you ask yourself and 2) when you ask somebody.
おれは彼の成功を願うんじゃなかったのか？(To yourself)
おまえは彼の成功を願うんじゃなかったのか？(To the hearer)
In the first one, you were going to wish his success, but you are not now. So you're asking and making sure with yourself once again. It has the nuance of contradiction.


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## KaleNovice

Thank you everyone for the replies!!!  I guess it's always safe to include "の”　before “ではない/じゃない”‼ Thank you once again for taking time to explain the nuances! They are very helpful!


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