# voce bianca/voci bianche



## kodama80

What is the English equivalent for the Italian 'voci bianche' referring to childrens' voices?

*T*hanks


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## Heracleum

kodama80 said:


> What is the English equivalent for the Italian 'voci bianche' referring to children's voices?



Garzanti ("voce") says: _- bianca_, treble voice;

but I also see it's used for high pitch voices (soprano, female voices), I don't know how it could be exactly the same of "voci bianche". By the way, it seems it's not literally transtaled (not "white voices", that simply seems to denote the opposite of "black voice").


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## TimLA

Hmmm...difficult.
I've found it as "White voices" - a translation of the film title from the 1960's.
But after googling a bit, it seems that it actually means "voices of the castrati" - 
or perhaps just "The castrati" or perhaps "Castrati Chorus".
I'll keep looking.
But based on "pizza bianca" I would also guess "Plain Voices"


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## aluclom

*C*ome si traduce correttamente "voce bianca" (cioè la voce di bambini/bambine)? *I*l termine che ho trovato, "treble voice", non mi sembra giusto. *F*orse semplicemente children voice? *D*unque: "per coro di voci bianche", "for children choir"?


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## Paulfromitaly

In base a cosa dici che non è giusto? (e invece lo è)


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## arazzo

Treble voices  
also:  _boys' choir_

"_Members of a boys' choir are technically known as trebles_"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_choir


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## elfa

I think I am right in thinking that _voci bianche_ don't just refer to voices which are  'unbroken' i.e. boys' choirs. They also refer to children's voices in general, which haven't yet developed (see wiki article on 'voci bianche') - in English, 'children's choirs'.


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## Tonza

elfa said:


> I think I am right in thinking that _voci bianche_ don't just refer to voices which are  'unbroken' i.e. boys' choirs. They also refer to children's voices in general, which haven't yet developed (see wiki article on 'voci bianche') - in English, 'children's choirs'.



I agree, "children's choirs" is most accurate. Boy's choirs are a very traditional type of children's choir for historical reasons (since women were not allowed to perform sacred music but treble voices were needed). Boy's choirs are still very common today, but now of course there are many choirs that include girls as well. "Treble" and "alto" refer to the vocal range, so I think "voci bianche" (which refers to the undeveloped voice, not the vocal range itself) would best translate as "children's choir/s".


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## arazzo

Hi Elfa and Tonza,
Yes, but (in my opinion) only if we are talking about nowadays...
The inclusion of girls' voices in performances of sacred music has only happened in the last 30 - 40 years.  Historically, the choral tradition was for boys' choirs / voices only, for _hundreds_ of years - and remains so in some settings.  The reason is that their voices were/are considered to be more '_pure_' rolleyes: ) (... maybe this is what _bianca_ referred to originally?)
For "children's choir" I'd say that this is dependent upon the (missing) context: who is the composer? / when was the piece in question written?  etc.  For modern scores, perhaps... otherwise I think that "children's choir" may be ignoring the original practice and definition.  No?


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## Tonza

arazzo said:


> For "children's choir" I'd say that this is dependent upon the (missing) context: who is the composer? / when was the piece in question written?  etc.  For modern scores, perhaps... otherwise I think that "children's choir" may be ignoring the original practice and definition.  No?


 I totally agree, it's just that to automatically say "boys' choir" ignorers the many other possibilities, especially because aluclom asked about "la voce di bambini/bambine" which seems to imply a more modern context.


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## arazzo

I also found this:

_"White Voices" is a vernacular term referring to Italian Castrati of the 18th century Vatican Choir. The Castrati were male children who were castrated so that they could retain their beautiful soprano singing voices into maturity.
_ eek

Just out of curiosity, can anyone confirm that this is the true origin of the term 'voci bianche'?


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## OleMorris

arazzo said:


> OK, I take it back... I've had a look around and it is generally translated as _children's choir_.
> 
> I also found this:
> 
> _"White Voices" is a vernacular term referring to Italian Castrati of the 18th century Vatican Choir. The Castrati were male children who were castrated so that they could retain their beautiful soprano singing voices into maturity._
> eek
> 
> Just out of curiosity, can anyone confirm that this is the true origin of the term 'voci bianche'?


 
Well, that some were castrated is absolutely true. Not sure it happened in the childhood though. Probably not. But this is not the origin of the expression, as far as I know. 'Bianche' probably refers to the fact that they were considered more pure, as someone has already pointed out.
What I mean is, that male adults were castrated in order to retain their vocal ability, but not children... or, at least, I've always thought so.


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## TimLA

Based on Elfa's link, if you click on "English" you see "boy soprano" for "voce bianca".

So for the original phrase I'd guess the literal:
"per coro di voci bianche"
"for a choir of boy sopranos"

But perhaps with more context, it might be shortened to a "boys choir".

Edit: Mendelsson's Opus 39 is "_Tre mottetti_ op. 39 per organo e coro di voci bianchi" in Italian
and in English it is "Mendelssohn's Three Motets for female chorus and organ, Op. 39".

Interesting note: The "Vienna Boys Choir" is translated as "I piccoli cantori di vienna"

So I think that we need *a lot* more context...


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## elfa

TimLA said:


> So I think that we need *a lot* more context...



Tim, if you look on Google, it becomes clear that people use _voci bianche_ to mean mixed children's voices - see here,
here and this competition for _voci bianche_ herehttp://www.corovocibianche.com/


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## aluclom

Tonza said:


> I agree, "children's choirs" is most accurate. Boy's choirs are a very traditional type of children's choir for historical reasons (since women were not allowed to perform sacred music but treble voices were needed). Boy's choirs are still very common today, but now of course there are many choirs that include girls as well. "Treble" and "alto" refer to the vocal range, so I think "voci bianche" (which refers to the undeveloped voice, not the vocal range itself) would best translate as "children's choir/s".



grazie a Tonza e a tutte le persone che hanno risposto alla mia domanda. tutto considerato, penso che, nel caso in questione, la traduzione giusta di "..., per coro di voci bianche" sia "..., for childen's choir".


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## arazzo

With all due respect to my esteemed colleagues: in the absence of any context, to my mind this thread is truly inconclusive.
Just my 1.3333 pence at today's exchange rate... 

*NB*: WR's Italian definition dictionary has this:

Esempio: *voce bianca*,
nel canto, voce di bambin*o* 

from:  http://www.wordreference.com/definizione/voce

------------
@ OleMorris:  thanks for your input, very helpful!  I suspect that the term 'voce bianca' is much older than 18th Century..
@ TimLA:  thanks for the translation of Elfa's link; I really struggled with reading it all in Italian and never thought to click on _"English."_


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## aluclom

arazzo said:


> With all due respect to my esteemed colleagues: in the absence of any context, to my mind this thread is truly inconclusive.
> Just my 1.3333 pence at today's exchange rate...
> 
> *NB*: WR's Italian definition dictionary has this:
> 
> Esempio: *voce bianca*,
> nel canto, voce di bambin*o*
> 
> from:  http://www.wordreference.com/definizione/voce



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Sì, però se andiamo sul sito di un coro piuttosto noto (www.corodivocibianchearcum.it), vediamo che i coristi sono sia maschi che femmine...


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## Tonza

OleMorris said:


> Well, that some were castrated is absolutely true. Not sure it happened in the childhood though. Probably not. But this is not the origin of the expression, as far as I know. 'Bianche' probably refers to the fact that they were considered more pure, as someone has already pointed out.
> What I mean is, that male adults were castrated in order to retain their vocal ability, but not children... or, at least, I've always thought so.



I hope this is not considered off-topic, but these boys were definitely castrated _before_ puberty, which caused their voice to develop differently from that of a normal male. If they had been castrated as adults it would have had no effect on their vocal characteristics.


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## arazzo

aluclom said:


> Sì, però se andiamo sul sito di un coro piuttosto noto (www.corodivocibianchearcum.it), vediamo che i coristi sono sia maschi che femmine...



If that is your context then, yes, I guess you would have to say _children's choir_.  
I personally might be tempted to consider _treble voices_, just to reflect the history a bit.. (but it probably sounds too old-fashioned ).
For the other very different contexts which I had in mind, such as the discussion of (or writing) academic papers or a thesis, or the publication of certain scores and historical documents, I think it would be essential to preserve the original meaning.


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## Tonza

arazzo said:


> If that is your context then, yes, I guess you would have to say _children's choir_.
> I personally might be tempted to consider _treble voices_, just to reflect the history a bit.. (but it probably sounds too old-fashioned ).
> For the other very different contexts which I had in mind, such as the discussion of (or writing) academic papers or a thesis, or the publication of certain scores and historical documents, I think it would be essential to preserve the original meaning.



I completely agree. In fact, I don't think "treble voices" sounds old-fashioned, it just sounds more "serious".  But the term can mean so many things, which is why as you said context is essential. I have seen the term refer not only to boy trebles or girls, but also women sopranos and altos, and castrati, who were of course adult men. At least with the term "children's choir", while it doesn't reflect the history as much, it is clear that the singers are children, if that's what needs to be expressed in the particular context.


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## panzona

arazzo said:


> *NB*: WR's Italian definition dictionary has this:
> 
> Esempio: *voce bianca*,
> nel canto, voce di bambin*o*
> 
> from:  http://www.wordreference.com/definizione/voce



Hi arazzo: just wanted to clarify that the singular masculine gender is used in Italian for general definitions and has nothing to do with the gender of the singers here... 

...e dopo una lunga e onorata carriera di voce bianca, posso con cognizione di causa affermare che si parla sempre di _children's choir_, a meno che il coro non sia effettivamente un coro di bimbi maschi (ne rimangono molti in Germania e Inghilterra, meno in altri paesi).
In ogni caso, _children's choir_ comprende anche i _boy's choirs_, se viene usato per parlare di una categoria.


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## arazzo

panzona said:


> Hi arazzo: just wanted to clarify that the singular masculine gender is used in Italian for general definitions and has nothing to do with the gender of the singers here...
> 
> ...e dopo una lunga e onorata carriera di voce bianca, posso con cognizione di causa affermare che si parla sempre di _children's choir_, a meno che il coro non sia effettivamente un coro di bimbi maschi (ne rimangono molti in Germania e Inghilterra, meno in altri paesi).
> In ogni caso, _children's choir_ comprende anche i _boy's choirs_, se viene usato per parlare di una categoria.



Ciao Panzona 

Grazie.  Provo di nuovo (scusa il mio italiano)...

Anche se il significato ha cambiato 30 - 40 anni fa, il termine _voce bianca_ è molto antico.  Sì, certamente, *in questi giorni* ci sono le bambine nel 'coro di voci bianche.'   Però non si può riscrivere la storia della musica (!!!!!). Ricorda..._"le donne dovevano stare zitte nelle chiese"_...(San Paolo).   Quindi, se parliamo del XV secolo (per esempio), la traduzione 'children's choir' non sarebbe corretta storicamente.   Come sempre, dipende dal contesto.

I'll leave it there ... 
(The take-home message:  we (ragazze) have to be grateful that we live in 2010  )

--------------

@ Tonza:  Thanks, appreciated.


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## violussi

Hi to everyone, ciao a tutti,
in Italian "voce bianca" means child voice. It can also be used to indicate that someone's voice is childish.
e.g. She has a really pure and light voice, almost childish.
Ha una voce pura e leggera, quasi bianca.

"le voci bianche" (plural) is usually referred to a children choir.

e.g. le voci bianche di _Bohème_
the children choir in Puccini's _Bohème_

Trust me, I'm Italian and I'm a classical singer too!
Have a nice day.
Viola


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## joanvillafane

What a lovely and evocative term - one of the many reasons Italian is the most beautiful language in the world!  Thanks to violussi and to the Forum!


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## elfa

Secondo la Wiki:

Per _voci bianche_ si intendono quelle dei bambini che non hanno  ancora raggiunto l'età in cui si verifica la muta vocale, 13 anni circa,  e generalmente l'età dei componenti varia dai 6 ai 16 anni. Queste voci  possono cantare da soliste o in coro.

If referring to a choir, it would be "*chidren's *choir" (plural) 

Otherwise, in more general terms, "treble voices" is what I would say.


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## anglomania1

Hi there, 
is it referring to children in general? Or to maybe choirboys, who have high-pitched voices before their voices break?
Just a thought, 
Anglo


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## elfa

Hi anglo,

voci bianche refer to just boys' voices as this Wiki article explains. It also makes the distinction between "coro di bambini" and "voci bianche", although in practice I think the terms "children's choir" and also "treble voice choir" are widely used.

There was a long discussion in WR on this very subject a while back, but for the life of me, I can't find it! Any ideas where it might be, Paul...?


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## anglomania1

elfa said:


> Hi anglo,
> 
> voci bianche refer to just boys' voices as this Wiki article explains - Sounds like choir boys to me. It also makes the distinction between "coro di bambini" and "voci bianche", although in practice I think the terms "children's choir" and also "treble voice choir" are widely used.
> 
> There was a long discussion in WR on this very subject a while back, but for the life of me, I can't find it! Any ideas where it might be, Paul...?


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## panzona

Elfa... Bingo!


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## elfa

panzona said:


> Elfa... Bingo!



 Well done panzona!

A chi si interessa, segue il link "Bingo".


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## Piero.G

Un esempio: 

"Treble Voices Chorus of the Teatro alla Scala Academy and Ottoni della Scala"

http://www.teatroallascala.org/en/s...sunday-scala/treble-voices-chorus-ottoni.html


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## anglomania1

Hello, 
I'm not a musician, but would someone automatically understand "children's voices" from the term "treble voices"?? 
I wouldn't automatically think of children.
Anglo


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## elfa

anglomania1 said:


> Hello,
> I'm not a musician, but would someone automatically understand "children's voices" from the term "treble voices"??
> I wouldn't automatically think of children.
> Anglo



This just goes to show how much confusion there is surrounding these various terms. 

"Treble  voices" appears to refer to both boys' (unbroken) voices, girls' and boys'  voices (under the age of maturity) and mixed women and boys' voices  together.
The only thing it *isn't *is men's voices!


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## violussi

panzona said:


> Elfa... Bingo[/URL]!



Ciao,
riporto quello che ho postato sotto al link BINGO:

Ciao,
è vero che nel passato voci bianche era riferito solo ai maschietti e ai castrati, ma il termine è tutt'ora in uso e adesso si riferisce sia alle bambine che ai bambini.
Al singolare invece viene usato per esprimere la qualità di una voce, a prescindere dall'età e dal sesso di chi la possiede, ed indica una voce pura, cristallina, sottile, acuta, ma anche immatura. Per intenderci, se mi dicessero che ho la voce bianca, mi sparerei. Se a un soprano leggero dicono che ha una voce "quasi bianca" invece potrebbe essere un complimento.

In definitiva, come sempre, si può tradurre "voce bianca" in molti modi. Se è riferito ad un contesto di musica antica si tradurrà "boys' choir", in contesto più moderno (forse dall'ottocento in poi) "children's choir", se è riferito ad un'adulto "childish voice" o qualcosa di simile che adesso non mi sovviene!

Ciao a tutti!! 

PS= sì, meglio essere nel 2000!


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