# Proto-Germanic and Iranian words for "honey" and "bee"



## CyrusSH

English _honey_ is from Proto-Germanic **hunagam* of uncertain origin. (source: honey | Origin and meaning of honey by Online Etymology Dictionary) and _bee_ is from Proto-Germanic **bion* (source: bee | Origin and meaning of bee by Online Etymology Dictionary).

But Kurdish _henguvin_, Persian _angubin_, ... "bee honey" (German _bienenhonig_) are said to be from proto-Iranian **hangu* "bee" (cognate with Gaelic _seangan_ and Prussian _sangis_ "ant") and **baina* "honey" of uncertain origin.

Is it true? Does it mean there is no relation between them?


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## ahvalj

_Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _255


> **hunanga-* m. 'honey' - ON _hunang_ n. 'id.', Far. _hunang_ n., _hunangur_ m. 'id.', OSw. _hunagh_ m. 'id.', Elfd. _onungg_ m. 'id.', OE _hunig_ n. 'id.', E_ honey,_ OS _honig_ 'id.', Du. _honing_ c. 'id.', OHG _hona(n)g_ n. 'id.', G _Honig_ m. 'id.' ⇒ _*kn̥h₂-onḱ-o-_ (IE) — Gr. κνῆκος  f. 'safflower,_ Carthamus tinctorius_' < _*kn̥h₂-ḱo._
> 
> Both Gr. κνῆκος and PGm. _*hunanga-_ seem to be derived from a root or an adj. _*knh₂-_ with a meaning 'brownish yellow, amber'. The _n_ of the suffix was dissimilated in most Germanic languages, but not in ON _hunang,_ OHG _honang_ and Du. _honing._



Also _Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology:_ 193 — "A taboo-motivated innovation based on a color adjective ‘yellow’".

_Beekes RSP · 2010 · Etymological dictionary of Greek: _723 mentions this Germanic word among other suggested cognates, but writes "the varying vocalism is unclear" (I think Kroonen's explanation of the vocalism is unproblematic).


_Kroonen G · 2013 · Etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic: _64–65:


> _**bīōn-*_ f. 'bee' […]
> ⇒ _*bʰéi-on-_ (EUR) — Lat _fūcus_ m.'drone' < _*bhoi-ko-; _Olr. _bech_ 'id.', W _begegyr_ 'bee' < _*bʰi-ko-;_ OCS _bьcela,_ Ru. _pčelá,_ SCr. _pčèla_ f. 'bee' < _*bʰi-k-el-eh₂-;_ Lith. _bìtė, bitìs_ f. 'bee', OPru. _bitte_ 'id.' < _*bi-ti(-eh₂)-._
> 
> A European word. The oldest formation was probably an ablauting n-stem nom. _*bīō,_ gen. _*binaz_ in view of the co-occurrence of the full-grade stems OHG _bīa,_ OE _bēo,_ Nw. bie on the one hand, and the zero grade variants OHG _bian < *biana- _and MHG _bin,_ G _Biene < *binan-_ […] on the other (cf. Lühr 2000: 98).



The same in _Orel VE · 2003 · A handbook of Germanic etymology: _46.

_Расторгуева ВС, Эдельман ДИ · 2003 · Этимологический словарь иранских языков. Том 2. b–d: _61–62: derive _*baina-_ "fly; bee" from the same Proto-Indo-European root with different extensions, _-n-, -k- _or _-t-,_ in various lineages (Ossetic _bynʒ/binʒæ _"fly", also in _mydybynʒ/mudbinʒæ_ "bee", literally "honeyfly"; Pashto _waynǝ́, wenǝ́, wuynǝ́_ "termite, white ant").


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## CyrusSH

Thanks ahvalj, so *_baina_ also meant "bee", what about *_hangu_?


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> Thanks ahvalj, so *_baina_ also meant "bee", what about *_hangu_?


Waiting for Mr. de Blois…


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## fdb

Obviously there is lots of literature about this, most recently Morgenstierne/Elfenbein _A new etym. vocab. of Pashto_, s.v. _gabina_. Purely from a semantic point of view one expects a compound meaning “bee-honey” not “honey-bee”. The first component *_hang_- would thus mean “bee” and could be compared with Kurdish _hang_ “bee”. The second component would then be *_painā_- “honey” as in Avestan_ paēnaēna_- “prepared from honey”, Ormuri _pīn_ “honey”. Neither of these words seems to have convincing parallels outside of Iranian.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Obviously there is lots of literature about this, most recently Morgenstierne/Elfenbein _A new etym. vocab. of Pashto_, s.v. _gabina_. Purely from a semantic point of view one expects a compound meaning “bee-honey” not “honey-bee”. The first component *_hang_- would thus mean “bee” and could be compared with Kurdish _hang_ “bee”. The second component would then be *_painā_- “honey” as in Avestan_ paēnaēna_- “prepared from honey”, Ormuri _pīn_ “honey”. Neither of these words seems to have convincing parallels outside of Iranian.



I don't think Persian _eng_ and Kurdish _heng_ actually mean "bee", according to Moin Dictionary: معنی انگ | فرهنگ فارسی معین Persian _eng_, Arabicized as _enj_ and _enq_, means "distillate, syrup", of course it is not used in Modern Persian.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> Neither of these words seems to have convincing parallels outside of Iranian.


What about the proposition that *_hangu_ is from PIE  *(_t_)_senghʷ-u_ ("ant") and *_paina_ originally meant "milk", related to Baltic *_pāina_ ("milk")?


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> *_paina_ originally meant "milk", related to Baltic *_pāina_ ("milk")?



Yes, _pienas_ in Lithuanian means "milk": pienas - Wiktionary it is cognate with Persian _pinu_ which means "sour buttermilk": معنی پینو | لغت‌نامه دهخدا

شعر ژاژ از دهان من شکر است 
شعر نیک از دهان تو پینو


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> Ossetic _bynʒ/binʒæ _"fly", also in _mydybynʒ/mudbinʒæ_ "bee", literally "honeyfly";



Ossetic _mydy-bynʒ_/_mud-binʒæ_ "honeyfly" (German _honigbiene_) is a interesting word, the first part is from proto-IE _médʰu_ "honey": Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/médʰu - Wiktionary and the second part as you said, from *_baina_ "fly, bee". The Middle Persian word for "bee" was _magas-i angubēn_. It seems _angubēn_ (*_hangubaina_) just meant "honey" and was not considered to be a compound in Middle Persian, so it could be a loanword.


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## CyrusSH

It could be a loanword from Old Norse.

Volga trade route: Volga trade route - Wikipedia "In the Middle Ages, the Volga trade route connected Northern Europe and Northwestern Russia with the Caspian Sea, via the Volga River. The traders brought furs, *honey*, and slaves through territory held by Finnish and Permian tribes down to the land of the Volga Bulgars."

Discovery of Viking-Era Sasanian and Arab-Sasanian Coins in Sweden: Viking-era Sasanian and Arab-Sasanian  Silver Coins Found in Sweden - Archaeological and Cultural News of the Iranian  World "According to SNHB the coins are dated between 500 CE to 840 CE."


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## desi4life

CyrusSH said:


> It could be a loanword from Old Norse.



From which Old Norse word?


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## fdb

Treaty said:


> What about the proposition that *_hangu_ is from PIE  *(_t_)_senghʷ-u_ ("ant") and *_paina_ originally meant "milk", related to Baltic *_pāina_ ("milk")?



This article by Witczak is very interesting. The suggestion that *paina- means “milk” is not new, but has not seemed attractive because of its meagre attestation in IE (see Bartholomae, s.v. paēnaēna-). If it is correct this would presumably be an -n extension of the root represented by Av. paiiah-, Skt payas-, "milk", IE *pey- “to swell”, though for some reason Witczak does not discuss this.


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## CyrusSH

desi4life said:


> From which Old Norse word?


 
We don't Old Norse word but by comparing to Finnish loanword and Scanian and Old Swedish words, it could be *_hunagbine_, or another word similar to German _honigbiene_, this word could be changed to _hangabin_ in Persian.


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## Treaty

First, why should Persian borrow the word for "honey" from Old Norse? Second, the Persian word existed in MP which was likely to predate Old Norse, or any meaningful Germano-Persian contact.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> First, why should Persian borrow the word for "honey" from Old Norse? Second, the Persian word existed in MP which was likely to predate Old Norse, or any meaningful Germano-Persian contact.



As you read here: HONEY – Encyclopaedia Iranica "From pre-lslamic (Sasanian) times we have a few references to honey and honeybees." One of them is Bundahishn which dates from the 9th century AD.

Persian geographers of the 9th century, like  Ibn Khordadbeh and Ibn Rustah, also talk about trade between Vikings and Persians in Gorgan (Jurjan) and we know honey was one of the main goods which was imported.


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## Treaty

These are irrelevant. Unless you are trying to say Iranians were not familiar with honey before 800s!


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> These are irrelevant. Unless you are trying to say Iranians were not familiar with honey before 800s!



As you read in Iranica, after the Arab conquest of Persia and because of Muslim rulers’ fondness for honey, an important religious issue for Zoroastrians was about the licitness of honey. It is really possible that honey was not a popular sweet in pre-Islamic Iran.


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## Treaty

That's a weird interpretation. The Iranica article doesn't say anything about popularity of honey *before *Islam, but the conditions of a ritually clean honey *after *Islam. Basically, it says Zoroastrian were well familiar with honey but started to doubt its granted goodness *only after* Islam because it was so popular among their Muslim enemies. Nothing less is expected from those irrational zealots (i.e. the "logic" of there is something wrong with it if it makes enemy happy).


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## CyrusSH

There was not one type of honey and honeybee, you can compare it to orange, it can't be said that Iranians didn't know orange whenas the word itself has a Persian origin but the sweet orange which was imported to Iran by the Portuguese merchants was so different that Iranians called this fruit "porteghal". Iranian honey has still much lower quality than European honey and for this reason a large number honeybee queens are imported into Iran each year.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Iranian honey has still much lower quality than European honey and for this reason a large number honeybee queens are imported into Iran each year.


Iran imports almost every kind of live animal because the *modern* industry is far behind. It is a very weak basis for saying the same about the past.


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