# use of sarcasm in Latin American culture



## workman

Hi. I'm translating into Spanish a document about the use of sarcasm as a way to hurt people.  A specific phrase is, "Nice shirt.  Did that color cost extra?"  I can translate it literally, but I'm not sure if in Latin America that kind of sarcasm would be understood.  

In this case it is meant to be an unfriendly sarcasm.  Being British we use masses of sarcasm both in friendly and unfriendly ways.  My experience in Latin America is that sarcasm is used at times but I've not been able to figure out the trends.  Can anyone comment on this?  And/or give an example of an equivalent unfriendly sarcastic phrase commonly used in Spanish?


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## cuchuflete

Hi Workman,

The difficulty I'm having with your translation mission is that the example you gave depends entirely on context—which is not visible here—to make it sarcasm.  Either surrounding text, or character, or a narrator's note about the voice in which it was said, or even the reaction of the person to whom it is directed, can make it clear to the reader that the remark is sarcastic.  It could also be a literal, dry query.

Or, I may be totally wrong, and the words are sarcastic without context.  If so, please explain why.  I may have much to learn about BE humor.


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## workman

cuchuflete said:


> Hi Workman,
> 
> The difficulty I'm having with your translation mission is that the example you gave depends entirely on context—which is not visible here—to make it sarcasm.  Either surrounding text, or character, or a narrator's note about the voice in which it was said, or even the reaction of the person to whom it is directed, can make it clear to the reader that the remark is sarcastic.  It could also be a literal, dry query.
> 
> Or, I may be totally wrong, and the words are sarcastic without context.  If so, please explain why.  I may have much to learn about BE humor.



You are right, without context this may or may not be sarcastic.  In this context the document has to do with how people communicate rejection to others, and that sarcastic comments like this can be used in that way. 
I find that the British use sarcasm much, much more than many U.S Americans.  Here I am trying to find out about the use of sarcasm in Latin America and specifically whether a phrase like this might be understood as sarcastic and therefore potentially hurtful.


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## Bettie

I am mexican, and I would find it hurtful, I understand that you are trying to say that the shirt is awful or at least the color of the shirt is.


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## cuchuflete

Thanks for the clarifications, Workman.

By the way, how much do they charge to shine your suits?



All kidding aside, I think you are right about British using sarcasm more than Americans.  We just use it in early November, every fourth year, and the effects are lasting.


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## workman

cuchuflete said:


> Thanks for the clarifications, Workman.
> 
> By the way, how much do they charge to shine your suits?
> 
> 
> 
> All kidding aside, I think you are right about British using sarcasm more than Americans.  We just use it in early November, every fourth year, and the effects are lasting.


Great use of sarcasm!  Honestly in my experience, a number of good friends from the Southern U.S simply do not use sarcasm, and when I've used it with them have taken me oh too literally.  The North seems to be somewhat different.  Am I right?  

Regarding use of sarcasm in Latin America, I've had a reply from Mexico, anyone from any other Latin American countries wish to comment?


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## Bettie

I want to say that we Mexican use the sarcasm a lot... some better than others.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Bettie said:


> I want to say that we Mexican use the sarcasm a lot... some better than others.



This reminds me of a hysterically funny interchange in the state of Oaxaca between the local rake and ladies' man, who was lounging along the road, and an upstanding member (and busybody) of the community.

She, sarcastically:  "Are you seeding, Silvano?"

He, equally sarcastically:  "Only in the street, Tia, only in the street."


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## workman

Mi experiencia más que todo ha sido en Centroamérica donde he anotado que se usa a veces un poco de sarcasmo por ejemplo hablando del clima.  “¡Hace tanto calor hoy!” (Cuando de hecho hace mucho frío.)  



Pero en cuanto al utilizar el sarcasmo con el fin de hacer daño a otra persona, no sé, no lo he anotado mucho.  



¿Por favor pueden otros latinoamericanos ofrecer sus opiniones?


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## cuchuflete

I would hardly characterize Jorge Luis Borges (Argentine writer) as 'típicamente ______' anything.
but I have long loved the sarcasm of the way he described the Falklands/Malvinas war between Great Britain and Argentina:

_la guerra de "dos *calvos* peleándose por un *peine*"

The war of two bald men fighting over a comb.
_


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## Bettie

En donde yo vivía se usa mucho el tipo de sarcasmo como el de tu ejemplo: "Discretita tu camisa ehh??" Cuando en realidad es de colores fuertes o escandalosos.


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## cyano

workman said:


> Hi. I'm translating into Spanish a document about the use of sarcasm as a way to hurt people. A specific phrase is, "Nice shirt. Did that color cost extra?"


Surely that is just a pretty tacky/unfunny quip in any language? 

Seriously though, for some reason in the UK we seem to think we have like a super-developed sense of sarcasm/irony which the rest of the world doesn't quite understand, but in my experience it's not true.

Believe it or not, Spanish people (from Spain) think that the British sense of humour is kind of simplistic and unsubtle... at least that's what I've been told.

Not too sure about Latin America, though.


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## ayaram7700

Hello everybody,

I am from Chile and we really use sarcasm a lot there. My brothers and sisters are sarcasm artists, I remember being sarcastic even as a child,anyway, I love sarcasm, but I have lost or hidden the ability to use it now. When I came to the US I used sarcasm a lot with my friends here, but they found me "abrasive" so now I rarely use it;  sometimes I have a sarcastic little thing on the tip of my tongue and I refrain from using it because people here are very sensitive and they have a tendency to feel offended or they give you a blank look... And the problem is, I find sarcasm a refinement, something that many people cannot even catch, like a very special spice you put in the food, say nutmeg, some persons notice it, some do not.

Sarcastic comment on a pink shirt worn by a male coworker: "Didn't they have those for MEN at the store"? In Chile, I've heard that one  like a *million* times.

I hope this thread will bring  new sarcastic remarks, I need to smile a bit, or even laugh. 

Bye,

Ayaram7700


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## Bettie

That happened to me too here in the States, I am not as sarcastic as before.


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## aleCcowaN

workman said:


> "Nice shirt.  Did that color cost extra?"


"¡Linda camisa! ¿No venía con gafas de sol para tus amigos?"

"¡Linda camisa! ¿Eres acaso daltónico?"

"¡Linda camisa! pero no deberías haber mezclado ropa de diferentes colores en el lavado"

"¡Qué linda camisa! ¡Lástima la mancha rebelde!"

"¡Linda camisa! ¿Te hicieron descuento?"

"¡Linda camisa! ¿Es ese el color de tus sueños?"


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## Mate

Borges -quien, dicho sea de paso era un anglófilo confeso- arremetió con más de un sarcasmo.

Para engrosar la lista del Cuchu:

*Yo nunca busco temas, dejo que los temas me busquen y yo los eludo, pero si el tema insiste, yo me resigno y escribo.*
*Para el argentino, la amistad es una pasión y la policía una mafia. *
*Yo siempre seré el futuro Nobel. Debe ser una tradición escandinava. *
*¿Por qué tengo que creer que un subsecretario es más real que un sueño?*
Esta última es mi preferida, ya que describe de modo tan conciso como irónico la naturaleza kafkiana de nuestros funcionarios públicos. 


Saludos - Mate


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## Mate

*



"¿Qué parte de XXXX no entendiste?"
"¿Es esta tu idea de un/una XXXXX?"

Suenan mucho en los doblajes de las películas, y no parece que se digan mucho en español:

What part of XXXX didn't you understand?
Is this your idea of a XXXX?

Click to expand...

 *Cita textual de: http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=945549&postcount=1


En castellano argentino diríamos por ejemplo: 

Ya te dije mil veces que no. ¿Qué parte de no (es la que) no entendés?

Así que a esa carne quemada le decis asado. 

No me ponga esa cara, ¡no se lo permito!
Es la única que tengo.

Si te gusta, bien. Y si no, ¡también!

Ya me acordaré de otras, aunque preferiría ver antes alguna que otra frase sarcástica reproducida por algún otro latinoamericano.

Saludos - Mate


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## aleCcowaN

Mateamargo said:


> *Para el argentino, la amistad es una pasión y la policía una mafia. **
> ...*
> *¿Por qué tengo que creer que un subsecretario es más real que un sueño?*
> Esta última es mi preferida, ya que describe de modo tan conciso como irónico la naturaleza kafkiana de nuestros funcionarios públicos.


*En Latinoamérica, el único uniforme que inspira respeto es el de bombero*. Julio Cortázar

*Kafka, en la Argentina, hubiera sido un escritor costumbrista.* Enrique Petracchi,  actual Presidente de la Corte Suprema de Justicia de la Nación Argentina.

Sarcasm and irony in Latin America? What? Do they exist in other corners of the Globe, then?


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## jazyk

Irony is very common in Brazil. A phrase that comes to mind is:

Talking to a man: _Onde você comprou esse(a) camisa/gravata/sapato/calça (place any item of clothing here) tinha pra homem?, _roughly _When you bought that(those) shirt/tie/shoes/pants, didn't they have it/them for men?

_Ironic/sarcastic TV shows like_ Zorra Total_ and _Casseta & Planeta _are very popular down here.

Only now did I see Ayaram770's comment:



> Sarcastic comment on a pink shirt worn by a male coworker: "Didn't they have those for MEN at the store"? In Chile, I've heard that one like a *million* times.


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## aleCcowaN

cyano said:


> Believe it or not, Spanish people (from Spain) think that the British sense of humour is kind of simplistic and unsubtle... at least that's what I've been told.
> 
> Not too sure about Latin America, though.


Yes, we think alike our fellow Spaniards. But British sense of humour is much more subtle and refined than the USA's.

I recall a famous comic strip published in English speaking countries, a comic where the main character is a British style butler who makes witty remarks. I remember the last two scenes:

master- "A honest polititian".
butler- "A honest polititian? There's no such thing!".

I think the seas of humour are pretty shallow in those regions.



ayaram7700 said:


> ...or they give you a blank look... And the problem is, I find sarcasm a refinement, something that many people cannot even catch, like a very special spice you put in the food, say nutmeg, some persons notice it, some do not.





Bettie said:


> That happened to me too here in the States, I am not as sarcastic as before.


Me too! And amazingly when you say some thing your face and look are contradicting, a typical resource in American (Latin, of course) sarcasm, the guys seem to suffer a shortcircuit in their brains, get a vacant look, and you have to take their pulse to check if they're alive.

More quotes on sarcasm and irony (journals):

//Esta es una película conocida. Repetida como ese clásico inmortal que es "Casablanca". Se recuerdan los minutos finales, Humphrey Bogart "Rick" mata al malvado mayor Strasser ante la mirada del capitán Renault, ese increíble policía francés que para salir del apuro al llegar las patrullas lanza la frase "arresten a los sospechosos de siempre". *Setenta y cinco guionistas buscaron ese final que a la política argentina le sale de manera natural.*//

What better evidence of American (Latin) sarcasm that the endless list of jokes with the structure "He/She is called X, because Y" and X being incorporated to colloquial language.

"La llaman vasito de agua, porque no se le niega a nadie"
"Lo llaman gol en contra, porque lo hicieron sin querer"
"A la gorda la llaman boliche de indios, porque no le entra ningún vaquero"
"A ese borracho lo llaman el infaltable, porque vino ayer, vino hoy y vino mañana"

Sarcarstic remarks are "pan de todos los días"

"- Kirchner le pidió a Felipe Solá que aplicara un plan de "tolerancia cero"
- Y ya tenemos el resultado, tolerancia 0, delincuencia 28."


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## Mate

Siempre recuerdo un tìtulo de tapa de Página12 (diario argentino):

_*"Jesús terminó su calvario"*_​ 
En la última etapa del gobierno de Alfonsín la Argentina sufría una agudísima crisis hiperinflacionaria. Tres días después de la dimisión de Alfonsín al cargo de presidente, Jesús Rodríguez -el por entonces Ministro de Economía que en menos de dos meses tuvo que padecer una inflación del 175% y una situación harto complicada en todos los frentes- "terminó su calvario".

Saludos - Mate


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## pocoloco

Sarcasm seems to be a very enjoyable kind of humor in Latin America. More samples:
_*Espero que algun dia l*__*legues a la edad que representas,"I expect someday you reach the age you represent..."*_ as a joke, when someone answers you how old is; *"Ladronde" lo compraste?*,  *(no* *translation* *avaliable)* as a joke sugesting you didn't buy something, but you stole it, or *"billete mata carita" *something like *"Money kills baby-face"* to say that someone can be quite ugly, but with money can have more oportunities with girls than the most handsome, but saying this using poker languish...


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## loladamore

workman said:


> Hi. I'm translating into Spanish a document about the use of sarcasm as a way to hurt people. A specific phrase is, "Nice shirt. Did that color cost extra?" I can translate it literally, but I'm not sure if in Latin America that kind of sarcasm would be understood.
> 
> In this case it is meant to be an unfriendly sarcasm.


 
By "unfriendly sarcasm" do you mean "bitchy comment"? Enróscate, pues (por víbora).

I feel I can speak for the whole of Latin America, being British, and seeing as it's such a small place with so little to distinguish the various disparate cultures from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego. There is as little sarcasm here as there is in the US, as I'm sure Woody Allen and the writers of MASH, among others, would be happy to point out, as opposed to the richly intelligent Benny Hill humour that I grew up on. I really had to think to pick up on the subtleties there.



			
				cyano said:
			
		

> Seriously though, for some reason in the UK we seem to think we have like a super-developed sense of sarcasm/irony which the rest of the world doesn't quite understand, but in my experience it's not true.


 
We probably only think that because we haven't been anywhere else, seen any foreign cinema or read anything in any other language. Nothing like a bit of stultifying insularity, is there. 

Can we have a pan-faced (non)smiley, please?


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## samarje

aleCcowaN said:


> But British sense of humour is much more subtle and refined than the USA's.
> 
> I recall a famous comic strip published in English speaking countries, a comic where the main character is a British style butler who makes witty remarks. I remember the last two scenes:
> 
> master- "A honest polititian".
> butler- "A honest polititian? There's no such thing!".
> 
> I think the seas of humour are pretty shallow in those regions.



That is a pretty lame comic. Unfortunately, there are always about a dozen bad jokes for every good one. However, I don't think that sarcasm goes unappreciated in the United States. It is extremely common in high school and college (at least in the Pacific Northwest). Perhaps it is confusing because friends often try to trick each other into believing that a sarcastic remark is true so that they can gloat about how gullible the other person is.  

It rains all the time where I live, so people often say things like "Wow, nice tan" when there has been no sun for weeks, or "I had to swim to work today. I saw Noah capsized on the way." Admittedly, these aren't the funniest examples, but I'm having a hard time putting "USian" sarcasm into context. One sarcastic thing that does happen a lot is that people heap praise on themselves while proclaiming their modesty. Making fun of clothes, accessories, and personality traits is also common.


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## Maroseika

pocoloco said:


> *"billete mata carita" *something like *"Money kills baby-face"* to say that someone can be quite ugly, but with money can have more oportunities with girls than the most handsome, but saying this using poker languish...


Rusos tienen uno medio más, hablando:
No hay mujeres feas, hay poco vodka.


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## aleCcowaN

samarje said:


> ... It is extremely common in high school and college (at least in the Pacific Northwest). Perhaps it is confusing because friends often try to trick each other into believing that a sarcastic remark is true so that they can gloat about how gullible the other person is.
> 
> It rains all the time where I live, so people often say things like *"Wow, nice tan"* when there has been no sun for weeks, or *"I had to swim to work today. I saw Noah capsized on the way."*


My experience is that speaking about anglo-saxon sarcasm, the fruit doesn't fall far apart from the tree, meaning there is only one (un)logical step between reality and sarcastic remarks (contradiction in the first one, exageration in the second one). That's OK but, speaking about Argentina, this is regarded as plain or friendly-formal if you are an adult. Besides, I saw that kind of remarks are quite common in the USA among fellows and mates. If you say that kind of sarcastic remarks to bosses or cops, you have a sitcom script, not a typical sarcasm. We use complex sarcasm with bosses, teachers, cops, officials, every day. When I said in USA that American seemed to me alike Japanese, extremely structured, they thought I was nuts.

We have typically metaphysical one step sarcasm, "We are born to suffer" while enjoying a delitious meal with loved friends on a splendid day. Two steps sarcasm, "Then buy a good pair of shoes" to a cop, while we are paying a fine, suggesting both he gets a commission on fines and wears awfully. Three steps sarcasm, and on, and on, reaching quickly a point our best sarcasm falls within the blind spot of the anglo-saxon mental retina.



loladamore said:


> We probably only think that because we haven't been anywhere else, seen any foreign cinema or read anything in any other language. Nothing like a bit of stultifying insularity, is there.
> 
> Can we have a pan-faced (non)smiley, please?


I came across British people that thought that English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, because it is so complex an rich. I'm the living evidence it is not, as it seems that I was born without a Brocca's area in my brain, and I still manage to use it a bit, with stammering keystrokes. Britain has many virtues, but not as many as her springs use to think.


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## Mate

A nasty one:

A cab makes a turn at a corner while you are intending to cross the street. The driver's action is so brutal that makes you jump like a monkey in order to dodge the car impact. 

Then you go: "¿Porqué me odiás si yo no soy el culpable de que vos seas un fracasado?" _(Why do you hate me?. After all I'm not the one to blame for you being a looser / Why do you hate me. Do you think I'm guilty for you being a complete failure?)_

Mateamargo, el cruel


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## chics

cyano said:


> Believe it or not, Spanish people (from Spain) think that the British sense of humour is kind of simplistic and unsubtle... at least that's what I've been told...


 
Good morning.

I'm glad to let you know that it isn't true at all. Spanish people LOVE irony, sarcasm and double senses.

In Spain we like the Bristish irony very much, we adore it. Moreover in Catalonia.

And for the sample sentence, I look it sarcastic even without context and I immediatelly can imagine the colour of the t-shirt. I must add that I've heard very similar sentences to it, in spanish, even the same? 

Greetings.


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## ayaram7700

Mateamargo said:


> A nasty one:
> 
> A cab makes a turn at a corner while you are intending to cross the street. The driver's action is so brutal that makes you jump like a monkey in order to dodge the car impact.
> 
> Then you go: "¿Porqué me odiás si yo no soy el culpable de que vos seas un fracasado?" _(Why do you hate me?. After all I'm not the one to blame for you being a looser / Why do you hate me. Do you think I'm guilty for you being a complete failure?)_
> 
> Mateamargo, el cruel


 
Hola Mateamargo: 

¿Qué te parece ese maravilloso "No te vayas a morder la lengua, que te puedes envenenar" de un sarcástico a otro? 

Ayaram7700 mas cruel aún...


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## elpoderoso

cuchuflete said:


> All kidding aside, I think you are right about British using sarcasm more than Americans. We just use it in early November, every fourth year, and the effects are lasting.


 
Sorry, please explain!!


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## cyano

aleCcowaN said:


> Yes, we think alike our fellow Spaniards. But British sense of humour is much more subtle and refined than the USA's.
> 
> I recall a famous comic strip published in English speaking countries, a comic where the main character is a British style butler who makes witty remarks. I remember the last two scenes:
> 
> master- "A honest polititian".
> butler- "A honest polititian? There's no such thing!".
> 
> I think the seas of humour are pretty shallow in those regions.


I guess you've never seen (or perhaps heard of) Monty Python, The Goons, Hancock's Half Hour, Derek and Clive, Yes Minister, Blackadder... The Office, Brass Eye, Eddie Izzard, Father Ted, Paul Whitehouse... just to name a few famous British comedy television programs and performers from the past and more recent times. 

From what I've seen of comedy shows in Spain, they are usually more slapstick style humour, although I couldn't really judge the entire Spanish sense of humour just based on what they put on TV there (which is notoriously bad), or on a single comic strip (although I do like "Mortedelo y Filemón").

As for USAians having a problem with sarcasm and irony, that's a stereotype that exists here too, although as I've never been to that country myself, I have no personal experiences to recount, but based on what I've seen on programs such as Seinfeld, Frasier, The Simpsons, etc, I'd say it's not entirely true.

Maybe I should have written this in my other post to avoid potential misunderstandings:


cyano said:


> Seriously though, for some reason in the UK *people from wherever* seem to think we *they* have like a super-developed sense of sarcasm/irony which the rest of the world doesn't quite understand, but in my experience it's not true.
> 
> Not too sure about Latin America *places I've never been to and don't know much about*, though.


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## cyano

elpoderoso said:


> Sorry, please explain!!


Come on, you are letting the side down.


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## cyano

chics said:


> In Spain we like the Bristish irony very much, we adore it. Moreover in Catalonia.


I'm glad you say that , and yes I have heard that in Catalonia you have a similar kind of sense of humour to ours... maybe that's why I like Buenafuente a lot.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

workman said:


> I find that the British use sarcasm much, much more than many U.S Americans.


I think that's a very broad generalization. True, an important number of my British friends are fantastic at sarcasm, but I could say the same about my French, American, Scottish, German, Swedish, Mexican, Colombian and Argentinian friends. Maybe it's just the people I hang around with, but they all can be brutally mordant at all times, regardless of their nationality.

Oh, and if you're interested in sarcasm other than from your fellow countrymen, I suggest you to run a search for the late Groucho Marx's old jokes. He was definitely a master of the genre.





> Not too sure about Latin America, though.


Well, a certain amount of Latin Americans have posted about that already, but again, I think it's a matter of personality. Personally, I thrive for sarcasm battles between my mates; I love to be a silent observer of subtle (and sometimes, not so subtle) insults with a somewhat refined usage of language...


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## elpoderoso

cyano said:


> Come on, you are letting the side down.


Sorry, it was the shock of an American being sarcastic that did for me.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

cyano said:


> From what I've seen of comedy shows in Spain, they are usually more slapstick style humour, although* I couldn't really judge the entire Spanish sense of humour just based on what they put on TV there* (which is notoriously bad), _*or on a single comic strip*_ (although I do like "Mortedelo y Filemón").


I totally agree _*with what I highlighted*_ (if you allow me to  ).

See, Venezuelan TV is catastrophically bad -especially 'humorous' programmes, they're not what they used to be. Whatever you see on TV here is just 'what you see on TV', it does not reflect too much about our people, much less our people's sense of humor.

I have to say Venezuelan people _*in general*_ seem/tend to be very open, straightforward, noisy and even insolent, so then subtleness is often left aside, as it is apparently unnecessary. But in specific, you could get a few surprises...


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## cyano

aleCcowaN said:


> My experience is that speaking about anglo-saxon sarcasm, the fruit doesn't fall far apart from the tree, meaning there is only one (un)logical step between reality and sarcastic remarks (contradiction in the first one, exageration in the second one).


Sorry, but couldn't let this one go..."*anglo-saxon*" sarcasm?  

Based on that and the rest of what you mentioned in your post, the edited version of what I wrote above rings even more true to me...


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## Mate

ayaram7700 said:


> Hola Mateamargo:
> 
> ¿Qué te parece ese maravilloso "No te vayas a morder la lengua, que te puedes envenenar" de un sarcástico a otro?
> 
> Ayaram7700 mas cruel aún...


Me parece muy bueno, casi tanto como el que me acabas de hacer recordar:

Chisme entre comadres: "Esa, si se muerde la lengua, se envenena". (See that one? If s_he bites her tongue she poisons herself.)_

Algo parecido aunque bastante cobarde, ya que la aludida ofidia no está presente para replicar con otro sarcasmo (probablemente más grave aún).

Mateamargo, el replicante


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## Mate

elpoderoso said:


> Sorry, please explain!!


Quiere decir que (los estadounidenses) usan el sarcasmo "cada muerte de obispo", pero los efectos son duraderos. 
El Cuchu está haciendo uso del sarcasmo para indicar que (los estadounidenses) lo conocen y lo usan.

Edit: after scrolling down I realize that you've got it right.


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## cyano

loladamore said:


> I feel I can speak for the whole of Latin America, being British, and seeing as it's such a small place with so little to distinguish the various disparate cultures from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego.


Vaya, me parece un lugar bastante parecido a Anglosajonlandia: una tierra que se extiende por varios continentes, que está separada por varios oceános (obviamente no muy profundos, humoristicamente hablando) donde nativos tan diferentes (¿o iguales?) como Woody Allen, Benny Hill y Chris Morris comparten el mismo sentido del humor, y donde nadie (¡ni en sus sueños!) es capaz de entender las tiras de Mafalda, debido al punto ciego de la retina mental con el que todo el mundo nace allí. En esa tierra, todas las tiras son más bien de estilo "A honest politician? There's no such thing, hoho".


loladamore said:


> We probably only think that because we haven't been anywhere else, seen any foreign cinema or read anything in any other language. Nothing like a bit of stultifying insularity, is there.


Speak for yourself. 

Por cierto, yo también he conocido a españoles que "flipan" al descubrir que un "guiri" (¡hostia, un guiri¡) sabe decir más que "poh favore" y "guachi guachi"... pero al menos ellos son muy majos conmigo cuando se me escapa algún error al hablar/escribir (lo cual pasa a menudo) porque a fin de cuentas "¡el español debe ser el idioma más difícil de aprender!"... según me han dicho.


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## loladamore

> "No te vayas a morder la lengua, que te puedes envenenar"


 
Existen expresiones parecidas en inglés, como:

You want to watch that tongue; you might cut yourself.

Por supuesto que nunca me han dicho nada por el estilo.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

loladamore said:


> Por supuesto que nunca me han dicho nada por el estilo.


Siento traer malas noticias, mi lolita querida, pero creo que 'someone' just did...


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## cuchuflete

I, and a mere three hundred million of my fellow citizens, are quaking in fear at the prospect of what an Argentine chap might say about our sense of humor once he has graduated from comics to the editorial pages.

Anyone who doubts the subtlety of British humor might glance at a few random headlines from The Economist.
The chroniclers of the dismal science generally begin at level two and ascend or descend, depending on how warped your perspective may be when you're standing on your head, from there.


----------



## elpoderoso

Mateamargo said:


> Quiere decir que (los estadounidenses) usan el sarcasmo "cada muerte de obispo", pero los efectos son duraderos.
> El Cuchu está haciendo uso del sarcasmo para indicar que (los estadounidenses) lo conocen y lo usan.
> 
> Edit: after scrolling down I realize that you've got it right.


 
Gracias mateamargo. por favor ¿me podria explicar el significado de ''cada muerte de obispo''?
Gracias E.P
EDIT: It's ok I think i've found it. Once in a blue moon, right?


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## cuchuflete

Elpoderoso,
Mate gives me far more credit than I deserve.  The original reference was to presidential elections.  Once every four years, in November, we hand power to a buffoon, with lasting effects.  Who needs more sarcasm than that? It's a long-term dossage.  As Mark Twain wrote,  "God invented the idiot for practice. Then he made the school board."



> "Dick Cheney and his buddies go down there hunting in Texas, and Dick Cheney guns down a guy. And they're hunting quail, and the quail disappeared. They vanished. And reports now that they're hiding in the mountainous area near Pakistan" --David Letterman


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## faranji

Speaking about multi-step sarcasm and the alleged inability of anglo mental retinas to get it, I remember this one:

_What does a dislexic agnostic insomniac do?_

_Stays up all night wondering if there's really a Dog._

A few of my English-speaking Argentinian and Uruguayan friends actually got it.


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## ghoti

The _Washington Post_ has an occasional contest in which people are asked to invent a word by adding, subtracting, or substituting one letter of a real word, and then give the definition of the new "word." My favorite was from 2005. "Sarchasm": "The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it."


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## ghoti

And for Faranji, one of my favorite bumper stickers: "Dyslexics of the world, untie."


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## HUMBERT0

cyano said:


> Por cierto, yo también he conocido a españoles que "flipan" al descubrir que un "guiri" (¡hostia, un guiri¡) sabe decir más que "poh favore" y "guachi guachi"... pero al menos ellos son muy majos conmigo cuando se me escapa algún error al hablar/escribir (lo cual pasa a menudo) porque a fin de cuentas "¡el español debe ser el idioma más difícil de aprender!"... según me han dicho.


 
Cyano, cyano, no se apene, ya se sabe que más de alguno en su país entiende.


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## fabianax

In my opinion, sarcasm has not only to do with languages and cultures. Humour in its different expressions can be universal, even without speaking. Remember Charles Chaplin dancing with the world in his hands disguised as a dictator? It´s sarcastic, isn´t it?

Someone said something about money killing a baby face?
In Argentina we say: Billetera mata galán (A good wallet is better than a handsome guy)

I loved that "No hay mujeres feas, hay poco vodka"
Here we say something like: Después de las cuatro de la madrugada, si es mujer, mejor! (If you can´t get a woman before 4 am, anything will do... no matter what!)


----------



## fabianax

faranji said:


> _What does a dislexic agnostic insomniac do?_
> 
> _Stays up all night wondering if there's really a Dog._
> 
> A few of my English-speaking Argentinian and Uruguayan friends actually got it.


 
jjajaa, very good!


----------



## workman

loladamore said:


> I feel I can speak for the whole of Latin America, being British, and seeing as it's such a small place with so little to distinguish the various disparate cultures from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego. There is as little sarcasm here as there is in the US, as I'm sure Woody Allen and the writers of MASH, among others, would be happy to point out, as opposed to the richly intelligent Benny Hill humour that I grew up on.
> 
> We probably only think that because we haven't been anywhere else, seen any foreign cinema or read anything in any other language. Nothing like a bit of stultifying insularity, is there.



Obviously I was unaware that Latin America is a big place with different cultures and that's why I specifically asked for different opinions from different people and cultures.  I am indeed a sufferer from chronic stultifying insularity, despite having taken the medicine of living much of my life in Latin America and reading in 4 languages. Although I grant that there are many sufferers in the green and pleasant land who have not attempted such remedies.  

My comments on the apparent lack of appreciation of sarcasm in certain quarters of the U.S come from personal experience.  Try this one.  As I welcomed a team of 30 US citizens to a Latin American country (they had come to provide free medical care to the poor) I asked those here for the first time to raise their hand.  "Welcome," I said, "It's great to have you here."  "Now," I continued, "Raise your hand if you're here for the second or subsequent time."  They duly did so.  "Oh," I said, "We'll do our best to put up with you for the week."  Now, most Brits would have laughed and understood that I meant, "Welcome!  It's great to have you back!"  But not this group.  One of their leaders jumped up in shock and said in a horrified tone "Well, it would have been nice if you had said Welcome!"  I had to apologise and explain my intentions in saying it.  And I could recount other instances that led me, like others in this forum, to refrain from using sarcasm for fear of being taken oh too literally.

My conclusions- much depends on the individual.  I have American friends from both continents who love to use sarcasm with those they know will not take them literally and others who I would dare not use it with.  Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.


----------



## Mate

fabianax said:


> I loved that "No hay mujeres feas, hay poco vodka"
> Here we say something like: Después de las cuatro de la madrugada, si es mujer, mejor! (If you can´t get a woman before 4 am, anything will do... no matter what!)
Click to expand...

There is another rather vulgar one: "Si pesa más de 40 kg y respira...".

_If it wheights is more than 40 kg and it breathes..._​


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## loladamore

workman said:


> My experience in Latin America is that sarcasm is used at times but I've not been able to figure out the trends.


 
There have been several responses from Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Brazil, and Russia (which appears to have switched continents for the purpose of this thread) and most of them are proof that sarcasm is alive and well in Latin America. It's not a bad cross-section, but can't help wondering how representative the sample is.

1) I wonder if the same tendency is observed throughout Latin America? How sarcastic are they in Bolivia, Paraguay, Belize, Nicaragua, Ecuador, Honduras, etc.? Nit-pickers-r-us also wonders if you include places like Surinam(e) and the Guyanas in your quest for international Lat-Am sarcasm.

2) More worryingly (keeping me awake at night) is the thought that as forer@s, we're not at all representative in the first place... There are some scathing USians around when we all know that their tongues aren't supposed to be as dangerous as ours (she ducks in anticipation of a flying cuchu-lengua attack) and I think that we are in the presence of several unusually bright and sometimes scary sparks who may not be particularly representative of their cultures. I think that wherever you go there are people who are either considered hilarious or downright rude, depending on the dimensions of the *sarchasm* (thanks, ghoti); sometimes we give and sometimes we take. Ouch.

Sorry. I've forgotten what point I was trying to make. Ah yes!  It was:





> My conclusions- much depends on the individual.


Déjà vu?

Thanks for a great thread.
Saludos.


----------



## Mate

It's not over until it's over. 
Sorry workman but i'm not done yet.

¿Saben cual es el mejor negocio del mundo?: comprar un argentino por lo que vale y venderlo por lo que dice que vale.

Oído de nuestros queridos hermanos latinoamericanos. ¡Y cuánta razón tienen!

Saludos - Mate


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## cuchuflete

Mateamargo said:


> It's not over until it's over.
> Sorry workman but i'm not done yet.
> 
> ¿Saben cual es el mejor negocio del mundo?: comprar un argentino por lo que vale y venderlo por lo que dice que vale.
> 
> Oído de nuestros queridos hermanos latinoamericanos. ¡Y cuánta razón tienen!
> 
> Saludos - Mate



There is an interesting, and potentially offensive, Texan version of that joke. But, as this thread is supposedly about L. Amer... what about the clásico brasileiro?  Brasil, País do Futuro

Some kind and gentle Brasileiro always seems to add, in a soft whisper, "e sempre vai ser."




Remind me not to tell the one about the Hondureño telling about the mexicano and the argentino and God.... I could make thousands of enemies with a single post.


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## ghoti

cuchuflete said:


> Remind me not to tell the one about the Hondureño telling about the mexicano and the argentino and God.... I could make thousands of enemies with a single post.


 
Oooh, that's so not fair. I'm going to stamp my foot and pout.


----------



## Mate

Cuchu, I believe that both gothi and I deserve at least a PM regarding "that one". Not offense will be taken. I promise. 

Mateamargo, el intrigáu


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## Nikola

While I was in a taxi in London. We were driving and a woman tried to outrun the taxi. The driver slammed on the brakes ,the woman was frozen in her tracks,he rolled down the window and said calmly,"apparently Madam you have suicidal tendencies."
 Una señora mayor sube al autobus y no encuentra donde sentarse.
Enojada viendo muchos jovenes sentados, dice: aqui no hay caballeros,
un joven le contesta, lo que mas hay son caballeros lo que faltan son asientos.


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## marchie

cyano said:


> Surely that is just a pretty tacky/unfunny quip in any language?
> 
> Seriously though, for some reason in the UK we seem to think we have like a super-developed sense of sarcasm/irony which the rest of the world doesn't quite understand, but in my experience it's not true.
> 
> Believe it or not, Spanish people (from Spain) think that the British sense of humour is kind of simplistic and unsubtle... at least that's what I've been told.
> 
> Not too sure about Latin America, though.


 
cyano, I don't think British humour is simplistic at all, I rather think the opposite, or at least I have always considered it pretty sarcastic and ironic, and I love it, partly because I believe it has quite a lot in common with Spanish (from Spain) humour, taking into account cultural differences.
Regarding workman's question, I just can say that sarcasm is used a lot among my friends and family with both friendly and unfriendly intentions, and people in Spain will very likely get anything full of sarcasm, but be careful, you might get another in return.


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## olivinha

The thing about sarcasm in Brazil is that we are able to make jokes just about anything, no matter how sad, serious, controversial, or tragic the subject might be. Something happens, and there are thousands of jokes about it in no time.
Whenever I go to Rio, for example, it still shocks me to see that the long-bearded guy who sells mate and lemonade at beach is only known by his nickname Osama (yes, like the terrorist!). 

I don´t know if this laughter-is-the-best-medicine is good or bad, I think it´s just another way of dealing with pain or difficult situations.

And now that I live in Spain, I see that things are not that different here: any subject has a potential joke in it.

O


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## Bonjules

Hola,
Ciertamente, el uso del sarcasmo depende al fin del día
de la visión y del carácter individual.
Colectivamente, lo único que probablemente se puede decir
es que países con culturas ‘viejas’ y historias largas tuvieron
más oportunidades de ser “quemado” por sus líderes y sus propias locuras.   Esto, en mi opinión, promueve sarcasmo/cinismo.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

workman said:


> Can anyone comment on this? And/or give an example of an equivalent unfriendly sarcastic phrase commonly used in Spanish?





Nikola said:


> ...apparently Madam you have suicidal tendencies."
> ... lo que mas hay son caballeros lo que faltan son asientos.


Oh right! I had forgotten we could actually give some examples.

Regarding the first one, here the driver would have said "_Mire, que los carros pegan duro!", "Su póliza de seguros debe ser muy buena","Gracias, pero ya sé que mis frenos funcionan", "No se hubiera molestado en señalarme el camino, mi visión sí es apta para andar en la calle", "¿Por qué no mejor se lanza a las vías del metro? Así nomás se mata usted", "Oiga, más cuidado, que yo sí valoro mi vida", "A usted la envía mi ex-esposa, ¿verdad?"_, and there are many, many more remarks of the sort.

About the second one, we often hear:
A: ¡Pero, aquí no hay caballeros!
B: Claro que hay, pero están ocupados calentándole el asiento. (_Yes, there are gentlemen, but they're all busy warming up the seat for you_)

A: ¡Ay, qué mal! No hay puestos...
B: Puestos hay, señora, pero todos están ocupados. (_No ma'am, there *are* seats, but they're all taken_)

And of course, the thousands of sarcastic jokes that follow stupid remarks (like saying "_geez, it's raining!_", to a person who's wet from head to toes...)

My point regarding the use of sarcasm, is the exact same thing that most of us have been repeating like parrots: "It depends"


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## danielfranco

I like these kind of discussions: they make me feel dumb. (So that means I like many, many, many things, don't I?)
No, really, I always thought that what British people actually had was a _refined sense of irony_. And all this time they were just being sarcastic...

When I first arrived to the States people use to ask me how come I was so sarcastic, to which often I would respond, "oh, yeah? how come you are so %^&$ <please insert most unsightly physical attribute>?"
So I don't think I was really sarcastic. I was just a butthole. But it was an attitude born from living in a "popular" (read as "poor") sector of Mexico City, where you had to be aggressive to try and avoid getting smooshed by meaner people...


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## bb008

El rey del sarcamo, lo leí una vez era *Oscar Wilde*. 

Quizás con esto sea sarcástica, pero me gustaría aprender a usarlo, hay personas que como Wilde son de una destreza, que ni las piensan, lo dicen y punto, parece que les nace del alma. 

Tengo una amiga que es así, una vez estabamos en el trabajo y justamente la Gerente de Recursos Humanos era de un patético en todo, incluso llegaba tarde, super tarde a trabajar, un día salíamos del trabajo y eran justamente las 5 de la tarde en ese momento la Gerente llega y nos mira de arriba a bajo y dice: *"caramba, no tienen trabajo, nada que hacer, no tienen trabajo atrasado, que se van justo a las 5 (nuestra correcta hora de salida dicho sea de paso)" - en eso mi amiga dice: "No, no, tengo trabajo atrasado, ni pendiente por realizar para eso incluso llegó antes de la hora de entrada, lamento que usted no este aquí para que lo vea". (Ese día le pedí un autógrafo)*.


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## alexacohen

Sarcasm is not the same as irony. It is utterly different. 

Irony makes you smile. Sarcasm is aimed at hurting. 

Spaniards tend to be sarcastic. Most times the sarcasm lies not in the words that are uttered, but on the intonation the speaker gives to his/her words.

Passenger to airline ground staff:

"Do you know who I am?" - very loudly.

Airline staff (over the tannoy, mockingly stressing words where she shouldn't):

"A psychiatrist is requested at counter seven to attend a person who has forgotten his name".

As I said, Spaniards tend to be sarcastic. Also known as "mala leche".

By the way Wilde was master of irony, not of sarcasm.


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## la zarzamora

cyano said:


> I'm glad you say that , and yes I have heard that in Catalonia you have a similar kind of sense of humour to ours... maybe that's why I like Buenafuente a lot.


 

I am sorry to tell you that people in Catalonia are not nearly as funny as the British. The majority of them will never get "Extras" or even Oscar Wilde (yes, I know, he was Irish. But anyway...)

British sarcasm and irony have no equal in the world. Really.


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## LouisaB

I don't have much experience of Latin American sarcasm, but I wonder if some of our difficulty in seeing other people's irony is actually a self-fulfilling prophecy, because we're not looking for it.

Example: I once had an American boss, who absolutely terrified me because he seemed so rude. It wasn't until one day I nearly buried his desk in lists of suggestions for a particular role and he said straight-faced 'Gee, you didn't give me much choice, did you?' that I began to realize the truth. He was almost _always_ joking, but he did it so much better and more straight-faced than a Brit would do that I missed it completely. I think we all have different coded signals that tell the other person we're being ironic, and it may be _these_ some of us are missing - but even more, I suspect that because he was American, and 'Americans do't do irony', my usual 'sarcasm radar' was switched off....

Louisa


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## chicalita

ayaram7700 said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am from Chile and we really use sarcasm a lot there. My brothers and sisters are sarcasm artists, I remember being sarcastic even as a child,anyway, I love sarcasm, but I have lost or hidden the ability to use it now. When I came to the US I used sarcasm a lot with my friends here, but they found me "abrasive" so now I rarely use it; sometimes I have a sarcastic little thing on the tip of my tongue and I refrain from using it because people here are very sensitive and they have a tendency to feel offended or they give you a blank look... And the problem is, I find sarcasm a refinement, something that many people cannot even catch, like a very special spice you put in the food, say nutmeg, some persons notice it, some do not.
> 
> Sarcastic comment on a pink shirt worn by a male coworker: "Didn't they have those for MEN at the store"? In Chile, I've heard that one like a *million* times.
> 
> I hope this thread will bring new sarcastic remarks, I need to smile a bit, or even laugh.
> 
> Bye,
> 
> Ayaram7700


 
Thanks for saying so - I don't know if it's being from New York but since I've moved to California I've had to watch my mouth a lot and not use it so much which is a shame. I once said to a male friend - "nice sweater, do they make it for men too?" and I thought he was going to kill me before he started laughing too.

I think sarcasm is just playing with the symantics and irony of language, as long as the intent is playful. And I can't contribute a response to the original question but wanted to join in the conversation anyway!


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## Vanda

I think everybody had a saying here on sarcasm already within their own culture. My view about British sarcasm being overwhelming to Latin culture for instance, as someone pointed out, is that sarcasm has to do with human beings anywhere in the world not with this or that culture.
Any culture has its own way of being sarcarstic that can go unnoticeable by  outsiders but deeply  ingrained in the culture to the insiders.  Like chicalita said:  " sarcasm is just playing with the semantics and irony of language" that any native is able to do!


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## Adolfo Afogutu

workman said:


> Obviously I was unaware that Latin America is a big place with different cultures and that's why I specifically asked for different opinions from different people and cultures.  I am indeed a sufferer from chronic stultifying insularity, despite having taken the medicine of living much of my life in Latin America and reading in 4 languages. Although I grant that there are many sufferers in the green and pleasant land who have not attempted such remedies.
> 
> My comments on the apparent lack of appreciation of sarcasm in certain quarters of the U.S come from personal experience.  Try this one.  As I welcomed a team of 30 US citizens to a Latin American country (they had come to provide free medical care to the poor) I asked those here for the first time to raise their hand.  "Welcome," I said, "It's great to have you here."  "Now," I continued, "Raise your hand if you're here for the second or subsequent time."  They duly did so.  "Oh," I said, "We'll do our best to put up with you for the week."  Now, most Brits would have laughed and understood that I meant, "Welcome!  It's great to have you back!"  But not this group.  One of their leaders jumped up in shock and said in a horrified tone "Well, it would have been nice if you had said Welcome!"  I had to apologise and explain my intentions in saying it.  And I could recount other instances that led me, like others in this forum, to refrain from using sarcasm for fear of being taken oh too literally.
> 
> My conclusions- much depends on the individual.  I have American friends from both continents who love to use sarcasm with those they know will not take them literally and others who I would dare not use it with.  Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.



I believe our interactions with tourists are a slippery way for extracting conclusions about characteristics and behaviour. Don’t ask me why, I’m not sure about the answer, but the fact is that many times, they behave as complete idiots, specially when they are part of a group of co-nationals abroad. I don’t believe there are exceptions based on nationality. I do enjoy British humour and believe me, genuine humour can be appreciated everywhere. As someone wrote here before, humour, when shows social smartness, is valid all over the world, isn’t it? For the same reason, I enjoy humor from the States so much. No matters where it comes from as long it is well done!

Cordial saludo.

A.A.


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## Vale_yaya

Well… I think, everybody gets to say something “sarcastic” at least once in their lives, even kids, I mean, in order to survive in “that” environment kids need to defend themselves… and life just teaches them how to “be sarcastic” and hurt people, even if sometimes they really don’t mean it… “kids can be mean… very mean”… 

Besides… in order to say something “sarcastic” it needs to be said on the right time and with the right people… because you could either sound “very stupid”, “very mean” or “very smart”… obviously most of the people don’t think it twice before saying a “sarcastic comment”
In Ecuador it is used quite often… I do it, but I only do it when I know (or at least think) the other person will laugh with me. I like when I laugh with them, but not when I laugh at them, unless is something that it’ll be forgotten by them easily… 

There’s people who plays with: ugliness, fatness, disease, some kind of impairments… and I think that’s just not fair to use “sarcasm” because doing so you not only hurt somebody’s feelings, you create a trauma and reduce their self-esteem. When you find somebody who’s not confident enough about himself, you could cause a lot of damage saying a “sarcastic comment” and that’s just going too far.

I think that if you’re saying a “smart response”(using “sarcasm”) to a “stupid question” (para una pregunta estúpida, una respuesta INTELIGENTE) most of the time will be taken as funny… just be careful who you use it with.   

Yaya


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## Mirlo

Vale yaya quote:
There’s people who plays with: ugliness, fatness, disease, some kind of impairments… and I think that’s just not fair to use “sarcasm” because doing so you not only hurt somebody’s feelings, you create a trauma and reduce their self-esteem. When you find somebody who’s not confident enough about himself, you could cause a lot of damage saying a “sarcastic comment” and that’s just going too far.

I agree with you here, but It is the people who use this kind of sarcasm more, the one making rules to try to avoid it.
To add to the thread:

I was in a taxi one day and the taxi driver was upset because the light change and no one seemed to notice it, so he rolled down his window and screamed: "what shade of green are you waiting for?"


----------



## mirx

Vale_yaya said:


> There’s people who plays with: ugliness, fatness, disease, some kind of impairments… and I think that’s just not fair to use “sarcasm” because doing so you not only hurt somebody’s feelings, you create a trauma and reduce their self-esteem. When you find somebody who’s not confident enough about himself, you could cause a lot of damage saying a “sarcastic comment” and that’s just going too far.


 
There is a very fine line between sarcasm and rudeness, if you play your cards right you can get away making remarks about fatness, ugliness and what have you, sarcasm is an art unlike plain rudeness which is just lack of manners.

The last part (in blue) also brings up the initial question "use of sarcasm in Latin American". In Britain sarcasm is so rooted in the culture that this comments are not offensive, unless of course, that they are not meant as a joke but as an insult, which once again, is not sarcasm but rudeness.


----------



## Vale_yaya

mirx said:


> There is a very fine line between sarcasm and rudeness, if you play your cards right you can get away making remarks about fatness, ugliness.


 
Well... how can you tell that you crossed the line?, how can you know they understood it the way you did?... because not always the "joker" feels the same as the person who you're playing the joke on... I mean, don't take me wrong, I already said I do use "sarcasm", but I do it with the people I know... or just simply for "fun", or as a response, but I wouldn't use it to point out somebody's "looks" if I know already they have issues on that subject, and I think in Ecuador "sarcasm" is used a lot as that. 

I truly believe that there's a lot of people who are very happy the way they are (most of adults)... but there's also (most of young people) people who think that "they're not pretty enough"... they're fat... they're too thin... obviously nobody is perfect in this world, "unfortunately" a lot of people doesn't get it... and using "sarcasm" to make fun of this kind of "issues" (let's call it like that for now, even though they're more "fictitious" than "real ones") doesn't help. 
I mean "sarcasm" is good up to a point...


----------



## mirx

Vale_yaya said:


> Well... how can you tell that you crossed the line?, how can you know they understood it the way you did?


 

Again, this is the core of the thread. The question came about exactly for that reason. A British guy made sarcastic comments to some Americans, they didn't get it and were shocked and angry. The leader of the group came to speak with the Englishman and expressed the group's anger.

So perhaps Latin Americans and Americans are more sensitive to some types of sarcasm, I mean, sarcasm within some contexts. Whereas in Britain sarcasm is less limited to certain areas or topics.

My answer to your question is "I don't know", but I do know now where the line is drawn in Ecuador. "No remarks to ugliness, fatness, or other physical disfigurements". And I want add that perhaps this is a pattern throughout Latin America, which backs up  Lola´s Theory (or were you just being sarcastic Lola?), at least in Mexico fatness is almost a taboo, women are preoccupied with it, and it's usually not discussed in front of a fat person.


----------



## la zarzamora

mirx said:


> Again, this is the core of the thread. The question came about exactly for that reason. A British guy made sarcastic comments to some Americans, they didn't get it and were shocked and angry. The leader of the group came to speak with the Englishman and expressed the group's anger.
> 
> So perhaps Latin Americans and Americans are more sensitive to some types of sarcasm, I mean, sarcasm within some contexts. Whereas in Britain sarcasm is less limited to certain areas or topics.
> 
> My answer to your question is "I don't know", but I do know now where the line is drawn in Ecuador. "No remarks to ugliness, fatness, or other physical disfigurements". And I want add that perhaps this is a pattern throughout Latin America, which backs up Lola´s Theory (or were you just being sarcastic Lola?), at least in Mexico fatness is almost a taboo, women are preoccupied with it, and it's usually not discussed in front of a fat person.


 
There is no way that the Americans can be compared to, for example, Argentineans, regarding extreme sensitivity to jokes or sarcasm. We are not half as easily offended as Americans are. "Who invented political correctness" (an absolutely appalling thing by the way). Of course there are many exceptions: Jon Stewart, SNL, 30 Rock, etc etc.


----------



## mirx

la zarzamora said:


> There is no way that the Americans can be compared to, for example, Argentineans, regarding extreme sensitivity to jokes or sarcasm. We are not half as easily offended as Americans are. "Who invented political correctness" (an absolutely appalling thing by the way). Of course there are many exceptions: Jon Stewart, SNL, 30 Rock, etc etc.


 
I am sorry, I didn't mean to compare *you* with Americans, but rather Americans and Latin Americans to British. I don't speak of Canadians because no Canadian has commented on this topic.

Political Correctness is a whole thread apart and I'll leave it at that.


----------



## la zarzamora

mirx said:


> I am sorry, I didn't mean to compare *you* with Americans, but rather Americans and Latin Americans to British. I don't speak of Canadians because no Canadian has commented on this topic.
> 
> Political Correctness is a whole thread apart and I'll leave it at that.


 
Political correctness aside, I love the Americans.


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## Vale_yaya

Ecuador is a very small country, but you can tell the difference between people from “the hills” (La Sierra” and people from “The Coast” (La Costa)… people from “the hills” are very conservative and not very open-minded, and people from the coast tends to be very open-minded, and very confident in themselves. I had the pleasure to live in “both environments”… I would be careful to say a “sarcastic comment” in the hills because not always would be taken “well”… on the other hand people from the coast really don’t care about it, you can say “whatever” you want to and most of the time it would be taken as a joke. I’m pretty sure this has to happen in almost every country. I’m just speaking “generally”, obviously there must be an “exception” to the rule. 
“Fatness” It is a taboo in Ecuador... as so many other things… if you say something “sarcastic” to someone and they didn’t like your comment… if it’s in the coast, they’re probably going to get back at you with something “smarter”, or they will let you know right at that time and they may even explain to you why… but if you do it in the hills they may say something even “more hurtful” or they may give you “this look” like that “was not appropriate”, I’ll talk to you later or never… I guess is just depends where you grow up with… weather, people… societies… 
After living in MN for a while I have realized that people from here are very conservative… and I can tell the difference between people from here and Miami… I’m pretty sure “sarcastic comments” will not be taken the same way here than there. 

Sorry... I'm trying to change the size of the font but is not working...


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## ERASMO_GALENO

Here in Perú we use sarcasm everyday... I remember a graffiti that I saw some years ago, after lots of stupid mistakes that Alan García made in his first presidency period:

*La inteligencia me persigue... ¡pero yo soy más veloz!.*
Intelligence is chasing me... but I'm faster! 

And this is a rougher one:

*Combate el hambre y combate la pobreza: ¡cómete un pobre!*
Fight hunger and fight poverty: eat a poor person! 

Hope you don't mind the black joke...

Erasmo.


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## Chaska Ñawi

mirx said:


> I don't speak of Canadians because no Canadian has commented on this topic.



I beg your pardon ...... see post 8.    (Although it _was _about Latin American culture, which was our original topic.)

And yes, Canadians, who are generally pleasant people except for the national past-time of proving to ourselves and everyone else that we're superior to Americans, love to feel that our sense of humour is more sophisticated than that of our neighbours to the south.

If that is so, why do so many Canadians watch American sitcoms?


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## Chaska Ñawi

workman said:


> My experience in Latin America is that sarcasm is used at times but I've not been able to figure out the trends.  Can anyone comment on this?  And/or give an example of an equivalent unfriendly sarcastic phrase commonly used in Spanish?



And now that I too have joined the ranks in drifting from the topic, we _all _need to return to the original theme.  Thank you one and all......


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## lineaadicional

Ya sé que es tarde para comentar, pero sólo quiero decir que en México, al menos en el norte, el sarcasmo se usa mucho en diferentes maneras, dependiendo de la edad, el rol social y la ocasión. Entre amigos universitarios, por ejemplo, yo le podría decir a un amigo que usa lentes de sol en un lugar cerrado: "¿Se te perdió el sol?" O a Luis, quien es absolutamente estúpido: "No vino el pendejo; ¡pero vino Luis!". Sarcasmos de ese tipo son muy comunes y no son ofensivos si se hacen con gracia y después de eso decimos un "no te creas" aunque la realidad pueda ser otra. Es sólo un cliché...

Saludos


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## Benvindo

In Brazil, I've heard this a number of times, when someone meets another, a friend he/she think is a little weird, or just to pull his/her legs: "Oi, tudo bem? Como vão as coisas no seu planeta?" (Hi, is everything alright? How are things going in your planet?).

Or, on spotting a very ugly person, usually a woman: "Deixaram a porta do cemitério aberta." (They've left the cemetery gate open.)


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## yuggoth

In Spain:
In my opinion and experience, sarcasm is used (especially in the South, mainly Andalucia, where it is famous) mainly for the hilarity that the witty sentences produces, than to try to offend ( which, by the other hand, sometimes is wanted. But in this case predominates the try to find a witty sentence).
So, is not even unusual to use sarcasm against oneself. The main thing is the sentence:
- "I have always had so bad teeth that when I was a child my mother made me sandwiches with breadcrumbs".
- (I am so ugly) "The day in which God was giving the faces out I was playing truant and got only the sales".
or
- "At Carnival, I went to the shop to buy a mask, but the shop assistant refused to sell me anything but the rear rubber band".
And, of course, to be said about a different person, but, if he finds the sentence witty, rarely gets offended.
But, of course, it depends of the situation.

Strangely, I've found that in Anglo-saxon countries even innocent and light sarcasms are taken seriously, and in this thread it is expressed on reverse.


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## la zarzamora

yuggoth said:


> In Spain:
> In my opinion and experience, sarcasm is used (especially in the South, mainly Andalucia, where it is famous) mainly for the hilarity that the witty sentences produces, than to try to offend ( which, by the other hand, sometimes is wanted. But in this case predominates the try to find a witty sentence).
> So, is not even unusual to use sarcasm against oneself. The main thing is the sentence:
> - "I have always had so bad teeth that when I was a child my mother made me sandwiches with breadcrumbs".
> - (I am so ugly) "The day in which God was giving the faces out I was playing truant and got only the sales".
> or
> - "At Carnival, I went to the shop to buy a mask, but the shop assistant refused to sell me anything but the rear rubber band".
> And, of course, to be said about a different person, but, if he finds the sentence witty, rarely gets offended.
> But, of course, it depends of the situation.
> 
> *Strangely, I've found that in Anglo-saxon countries even innocent and* *light sarcasms are taken seriously*, and in this thread it is expressed on reverse.


 

Not in the UK or Ireland, no.


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## james.

The English language has a long history of sarcasm and irony, both in its literature and in common discourse. Shakespeare is full of irony, both tragic irony and true, subtle wit. These are often subtle plays on words that are often lost on even above-average, modern English speakers, never mind those with less-than-native familiarity with the language.  Jonathan Swift's _A Modest Proposal_, a classic of English literature, is a terribly biting satire, its premise essentially being one of black sarcasm. I think when comparing modern humor across the Atlantic, it's easy for either side to assume its irony or sarcasm is further developed than the other's, just because regional, cultural ideosyncracies determine the perception of any comment or instance of sarcasm. American humor certainly has many different styles and levels, from horrible sitcoms that need  a laugh track to get a chuckle out of even the most brainwashed viewers (most sitcoms) to South Park, which has over-the-top, biting sarcasm and satire of the most sensitive issues and often employs irony on multiple levels while maintaining an extremely crass, 'uncultivated' veneer, to Quentin Tarantino, who often uses subtle ironies throughout his films that run on many levels. And those are just a couple of examples from TV/cinema; print media often go further. In America, irony is often a part of more 'cultivated' humor, the cartoons in the New Yorker being a good example. I would urge those suggesting that American humor is shallow and simplistic to check out a collection of those cartoons to get a taste of more skillful irony, rather than looking to 'Dilbert' or 'Shoes,' or some other stupid comic strip (most Americans don't find these funny anyway, in my experience). I think it's clear from all these discussions that irony and sarcasm are pretty well-established aspects of intelligent discourse and literary voice across many Western Cultures, and that to pan one culture (or subculture)'s form is narrow-minded and short-sighted.


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## Outsider

Perhaps, as these latest posts suggest, sarcasm (and irony) often get lost in the translation from one language to another, or from one culture to another. I think we would all agree that often humour is even lost in the translation between different individuals, groups, or social contexts.

I agree with this, but I wonder if it is the whole story. Is it not also the case that humour can be more or less sophisticated, in a scale ranging from clown jokes to Voltaire (and Oscar Wilde)? Does anybody else feel that in societies with greater material comfort people tend to have a more refined kind of humour?


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## cuchuflete

yuggoth said:


> In Spain:
> In my opinion and experience, sarcasm is used (especially in the South, mainly Andalucia,
> Strangely, I've found that in Anglo-saxon countries ...


   Ahh, it's good to see that Latin American culture has expanded to include both Spain and Anglo-saxon countries...



la zarzamora said:


> Not in the UK or Ireland, no.


  Oh?  Well then I suppose that Latin American culture only includes select Anglo-Saxon countries.  That's a relief! 



james. said:


> The English language has a long history of ...


 So nice to see that English speakers can read thread titles without getting excessively confused.  Uh, what was the title of this thread?  Hmmm...let me think.  Oh yes!
*
"use of sarcasm in Latin American culture"  *English language in Latin American culture...we must be in Belize City.  



Outsider said:


> ... from clown jokes to Voltaire (and Oscar Wilde)


Indeed!  Voltaire and our dear Oscar, two fine examples of the best of Latin American culture, in its most expansionist mode.


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## cherine

*In case anyone doesn't get Cuchuflete's sarcasm, here's a non-sarcastic reminder that this thread is about Latin American sarcasm only.*

*Those who wish to discuss any other nationalities are very welcome to open another thread.*
*Thanks *


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## alexacohen

ERASMO_GALENO said:


> Here in Perú we use sarcasm everyday... I remember a graffiti that I saw some years ago, after lots of stupid mistakes that Alan García made in his first presidency period:
> 
> *La inteligencia me persigue... ¡pero yo soy más veloz!.*
> Intelligence is chasing me... but I'm faster!
> 
> And this is a rougher one:
> 
> *Combate el hambre y combate la pobreza: ¡cómete un pobre!*
> Fight hunger and fight poverty: eat a poor person!



I'm sorry Erasmo but your examples don't count as examples of Peruvian sarcasm.

"La inteligencia me persigue pero yo soy más rápido" was actually coined by Les Luthiers, who are Argentinian, and

"Combate el hambre y combate la pobreza:¡cómete un pobre!" has variations all over the world. In fact the first time I read something similar was on a wall of the London Underground:

"Keep well fed and keep London tidy: eat a pigeon".


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## cuchuflete

alexacohen said:


> I'm sorry Erasmo but your examples don't count as examples of Peruvian sarcasm.
> 
> 
> "Combate el hambre y combate la pobreza:¡cómete un pobre!" has variations all over the world.


 Jonathan Swift (¿Peruano?) 
"A Modest Proposal"
1729


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## bb008

Pero el sarcasmo más grande que yo he oído en los últimos tiempos en mi país es*..."Ser rico es malo"...* (viste a la última moda, los carros que utiliza son de los más lujosos, los relojes, los bolígrafos y se pasea con top models y artístas de Hollywood)...


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## alexacohen

No entiendo. ¿Qué tiene eso de sarcástico?


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## la zarzamora

alexacohen said:


> No entiendo. ¿Qué tiene eso de sarcástico?


 
Yo tampoco entiendo.


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## alexacohen

cuchuflete said:


> Jonathan Swift (¿Peruano?)
> "A Modest Proposal"
> 1729


I meant the sentence on its own ... Maybe Swift picked it up from Gulliver. Who knows, he might have travelled to Peru too.

Is this chat?


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## mirx

alexacohen said:


> I meant the sentence on its own ... Maybe Swift picked it up from Gulliver. Who knows, he might have travelled to Peru too.
> 
> Is this chat?


 
Yes it is

By the way, I didnt understand either, before cuchu deletes these messages he has now the obligation to explain his joke.


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## alexacohen

Oh, I did understand what Cuchu said!

He meant that Swift had already written that the best way to end poverty and hunger in Ireland was to eat paupers. Back in 1729.

He said, I mean Swift, not Cuchu: 

"I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar's child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, laborers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat..."


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## la zarzamora

bb008 said:


> Pero el sarcasmo más grande que yo he oído en los últimos tiempos en mi país es*..."Ser rico es malo"...* (viste a la última moda, los carros que utiliza son de los más lujosos, los relojes, los bolígrafos y se pasea con top models y artístas de Hollywood)...


 
Yo lo que no entiendo es ésto.
Y ahora que leo lo de Jonathan Swift peruano tampoco lo entiendo.


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## olivinha

Guys, Cuchu was obviously being sarcastic. We are talking about sarcasm in Latin American culture, of which Jonathan Swift, the great _Irish_ satirist, should not be representative.


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## Chaska Ñawi

olivinha said:


> Guys, Cuchu was obviously being sarcastic. We are talking about sarcasm in Latin American culture, of which Jonathan Swift, the great _Irish_ satirist, should not be representative.



Well ..... actually ...... we are no longer talking about sarcasm at all.  It seems that there is nothing more to say on Latin American sarcasm at the moment, so this thread is now closed.  It has retired to the Latin American country of Ireland, long known for its subtle sarcasm, to put its feet up and drink pisco.


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