# Peccata Mundi



## SerinusCanaria3075

De la oración "Gloria" aparece como:
>Qui tollis _peccata mundi_.

Me pueden confirmar si está o no en *plural* ya que lo vi en italiano como "tu che togli *i peccati* del mondo" pero también lo he visto en forma singular en otros idiomas.


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## judkinsc

"[You] who bear the sins of the world." Variant: "bear away" or "take away" etc. It is just the same as the Italian translation you've offered.

It's directed to Christ. Peccatum, -a. Neuter plural accusative here.


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## modus.irrealis

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> pero también lo he visto en forma singular en otros idiomas.


Ahí puede ser una traducción de la Biblia (Juan 1:29 es _qui tollit peccatum mundi _en latín) e no del himno.

(And just in case I got that completely wrong , the singular might be because reference is being made to the Bible, namely John 1:29, and not the hymn.)


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## Outsider

También se encuentra esa expresión en el _Agnus Dei_:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi
"Cordero de Dios, que quitas el pecado del mundo..."​


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## SerinusCanaria3075

Thanks to everyone for your replies. If I understood correctly, when _peccatum_ ends in *a* it is plural, right? So "qui tollit _peccatum_ mundi" would have to be singular (sorry if I'm wrong) and since "mundi" does not  change in either case it's because it is in the genitive form, right (of the world)?


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## Outsider

I think you're right, but wait for further replies.


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## rocamadour

SerinusCanaria3075 said:


> Thanks to everyone for your replies. If I understood correctly, when _peccatum_ ends in *a* it is plural, right? So "qui tollit _peccatum_ mundi" would have to be singular (sorry if I'm wrong) and since "mundi" does not change in either case it's because it is in the genitive form, right (of the world)?


 
Correcto! 

peccat*um* es un nombre neutro de la II decl. (peccat*a* es su nom. plur.)
mund*us *es un nombre masculino de la II decl. (mund*i* es su gen. sing.)


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## modus.irrealis

Outsider said:


> También se encuentra esa expresión en el _Agnus Dei_:Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi
> "Cordero de Dios, que quitas el pecado del mundo..."​


Interesting. In both the Gloria and the Agnus Dei, I found some other languages whose version has the singular (French _le péché_, German _die Sünde_, I think the Portuguese _o pecado_ is also singular, and Wikipedia says that many English versions have _the sin_ as well). I didn't do a thorough check but of the languages where I could figure it out, only Latin and Italian seem to have the plural. I wonder what happened -- I can only think of the possibility that it's interference from the Bible passage -- since as has been said, the singular forms can't be direct translations of the Latin.


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## Outsider

To me, both versions work. With the plural, you're saying "who takes sins away from the world"; with the singular, you're doing a synecdoque: "who takes sin away from the world" (that is, who rids the world from sin).


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## GreenWhiteBlue

The verse in the Bible uses _peccatum_, which is the singular "sin" (el pecado).

The liturgical prayer _Agnus D_ei, however, uses the plural _peccata_, which is translated literally as "sins" (los pecados).

It must be kept in mind that for neuter nouns, the nominative and the accusative take the same form.  While _peccatum/peccata_ can be nominatives, here the words are being used as direct objects, and so are in the accusative case.


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## modus.irrealis

Outsider said:


> To me, both versions work. With the plural, you're saying "who takes sins away from the world"; with the singular, you're doing a synecdoque: "who takes sin away from the world" (that is, who rids the world from sin).


Although, and maybe it's just me, but the singular version strongly suggests an interpretation where "the sin" is a specific sin, namely the Original Sin. But it just seems strange to me that the Latin wouldn't be translated literally here.


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## Outsider

modus.irrealis said:


> Although, and maybe it's just me, but the singular version strongly suggests an interpretation where "the sin" is a specific sin, namely the Original Sin.


As someone who has heard _...que tirais o pecado do mundo..._ in many a mass, I must say that interpretation never ocurred to me. I have always understood it as a reference to "sin in general", the abstract notion of sin. Then again, perhaps theologically all sins can be seen as originating from the original sin -- I really don't know.



modus.irrealis said:


> But it just seems strange to me that the Latin wouldn't be translated literally here.


According to GreenWhiteBlue above, the Bible has _peccatum_, so the singular is the literal translation of the Biblical source.

Does anyone know what the Greek version of the Bible says?


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## modus.irrealis

Outsider said:


> As someone who has heard _...que tirais o pecado do mundo..._ in many a mass, I must say that interpretation never ocurred to me. I have always understood it as a reference to "sin in general", the abstract notion of sin.


Yes, I can see it that way too.



> According to GreenWhiteBlue above, the Bible has _peccatum_, so the singular is the literal translation of the Biblical source.
> 
> Does anyone know what the Greek version of the Bible says?


The Bible verse has the singular ἁμαρτίαν _harmatian_, but the hymns, which as far as I know were composed in Latin, seem to originally have had the plural. That's why I was thinking that in the translations it's interference from the Bible that resulted in the singular.


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## SerinusCanaria3075

I tried looking for a Romanian version (could not find one) and since I don't know Greek yet I did not look for one. 
Since Romanian has reduced the declension of the Genitive/Dative (what I mean is that Latin has many more forms to decline a word), I tried translating the last 2 words (I hope I got it right):
Singular (Rumanian): ...păcatul lumi*i*. (el pecado del mundo)
Plural (Rumanian): ...păcatele lumi*lor*. (los pecados del mundo)

_Lume_ (world) is feminine in Romanian but I don't know if there is a similar form to the Latin _mundus_.


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## jazyk

Versiune română.

Jazyk


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## modus.irrealis

modus.irrealis said:


> The Bible verse has the singular ἁμαρτίαν _harmatian_, but the hymns, which as far as I know were composed in Latin, seem to originally have had the plural.


Reading this again, it seems unclear even to me. So I'll try again. The Greek original in the Bible has a singular. As for the hymn, I did find the Greek version of "Gloria in Excelsis Deo" and the relevant lines are

ο αίρων την _αμαρτίαν_ του κόσμου, ελέησον     ημάς, ο αίρων τας _αμαρτίας_ του κόσμου

so this version has first singular, then plural.


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