# He orders them not to proceed further when they hear



## Lamb67

He orders them not to proceed further when they hear the sound of the trumpet(abl.abs.)


Vetat ut procedant longius sono audito.

Or Eis imperat ne procedant longius sono audito.

Focus: Dative case. Are the above all possbile ?


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## Kevin Beach

I'm not sure about the ablative absolute here, because it seems to give an ambiguous meaning.

In the English version, you have expressed it as "when _they_ hear the sound of the trumpet", not "when _he_ hears.....". But _Sono audito_ could refer back to either "them" or "he".

I'm not an expert, but I have always understood that the ablative absolute is essentially an expression of the passive voice: "the sound having been heard". I can't really see how it can be used in this sort of context, when it doesn't identify the subject of the sentence.

The more learned may show us that I'm wrong though.


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## Lamb67

That's exactly why it's called absolute ablative- Ite is not obliged to refer to either subject or object of the main verb.
I need to know why the hint (abs.abl.) is given though a cum clause could make life easier, I think.


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## Cagey

I think we are expected to understand that the subjects of the clause it is in (the subordinate clause, in this case) are the agents who do the hearing.  It seems to me a reasonable expectation.


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## Kevin Beach

Cagey said:


> I think we are expected to understand that the subjects of the clause it is in (the subordinate clause, in this case) are the agents who do the hearing.  It seems to me a reasonable expectation.


But why? Using _sono audito_ could just as easily give the translation "When _he_ hears the sound of the trumpet, he orders them not to proceed further", couldn't it?

Yet the original English passage with which Lamb67 started:

*He orders them not to proceed further when they hear the sound of the trumpet
*
could be interpreted as meaning that he gave them an order about a future sound, i.e.:

*When you hear the sound of the trumpet, don't proceed further*


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## Cagey

I think not. 

Even though we say "word order doesn't matter in Latin", it does.   Unless there is some reason to do otherwise, we translate an ablative absolute with the clause it falls in. My own idiosyncratic explanation of this is that an ablative absolute functions adverbially, like a temporal adverb.  Adverbs have no case endings and so are similarly dependent on placement for their interpretation.

If it were he who heard the trumpet, I would expect: 
_ Sono audito, vetat ut procedant longius._​


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## Kevin Beach

Thanks, Cagey. I like the idea of the ablative absolute being a breed of adverb. I'll be looking for that idea every time I come across it now!


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## Lamb67

Another way of translating it would be to use Prolative Infinitive
Eos procedere longius sono audito vetat


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