# U = plural informal??



## MarX

Hello!

I've been reading and listening to the Bible in voorleesbijbel.nl, and realized that you plural (informal) is translated as *u*.

This confused me because I thought:
1. *Jullie* would be the better translation
2. *U* is formal. In the contexts I read, the *u *is informal and the German and Spanish versions indeed use _ihr_ and _vosotros_.

I'd be grateful if you could give me some explanations.

Thank you!

Groetjes,


Mark


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## Frank06

Hi,

Could you please gives some examples.

Thanks.

Frank


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## MarX

Hi Frank!

I'm reading the 1st Corinthians right now, and in verse 10 it says:


> Broeders en zusters, in de naam van onze Heer Jezus Christus roep ik *u* op om allen eensgezind te zijn, om scheuringen te vermijden, om in *uw* denken en *uw* overtuiging volkomen één te zijn.


Why isn't *jullie* used instead?
After all, the German and (Iberian) Spanish versions use _ihr_ and _vosotros_.


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## Joannes

*U* can also be a formal plural - that's what it is here. I was going to say 'maybe it's different in the new translation', but this _is_ the new translation...


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## MarX

Hmm, you're right.

In Mark 4 where Jesus talks to his disciples, he addresses them with *jullie*.

Funny.

In the Indonesian Bible, *kamu *is used for 2nd person plural, although nowadays it's used only to address one person. But that's another topic. 

Dank jullie!


MarX


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## Joannes

MarX said:


> Dank jullie!


Just a minor thing: for some unclear reason, this is not nearly as idiomatic as *dank je* opposed to *dankjewel* in the singular, *dank jullie wel* would sound better.


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## MarX

Joannes said:


> Just a minor thing: for some unclear reason, this is not nearly as idiomatic as *dank je* opposed to *dankjewel* in the singular, *dank jullie wel* would sound better.


Got it!

Dank je wel, Joannes!!


MarX


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## Forero

Is it usual to refer to one's brothers and sisters as _u_?


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## MarX

Forero said:


> Is it usual to refer to one's brothers and sisters as _u_?


Wouldn't really surprise me if it was. 
Two of my younger cousins in the Netherlands address their own parents with *u*.
In Germany nobody would address their parents with *Sie*.


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## Frank06

Hi,

In this context the phrase 'brothers and sisters' means _brothers and sisters in faith_, it doesn't refer to members of the same family.

So, though you might be right about people addressing their father with 'u' (I heard similar stories), I don't think this that can be compared with the verse from the bible.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Joannes

Forero said:


> Is it usual to refer to one's brothers and sisters as _u_?


Not _at all_!

*Broeder* and *zuster* are not generally used anymore in the sense of *broer* and *zus*. In the given context they are used to unify with 'mental companions', they can also be used to denote a 'friar' or a 'nun' or 'nurse'.



MarX said:


> Two of my younger cousins in the Netherlands address their own parents with *u*.


Really?!  I don't want to say that's weird, because that could come across as disrespectful, but that _is_ very uncommon! You sure it's not *u* as the objective form of *gij*?


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## MarX

Joannes said:


> *Broeder* and *zuster* are not generally used anymore in the sense of *broer* and *zus*. In the given context they are used to unify with 'mental companions', they can also be used to denote a 'friar' or a 'nun' or 'nurse'.


Wow, Indonesians actually still use *broeder* and *zuster* (pronounced as _soester_) in the way you explain it.



Joannes said:


> Really?!  I don't want to say that's weird, because that could come across as disrespectful, but that _is_ very uncommon! You sure it's not *u* as the objective form of *gij*?


I'm sure.
I got two uncles in the Netherlands. Each has two children. The children of the younger uncle address their parents with *u*, whereas the ones of the older uncle address their parents with *jij*.
I think all four of them addres their grandparents with *u*.

Groetjes,


MarX


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## Joannes

MarX said:


> I'm sure.
> I got two uncles in the Netherlands. Each has two children. The children of the younger uncle address their parents with *u*, whereas the ones of the older uncle address their parents with *jij*.
> I think all four of them addres their grandparents with *u*.


Well, then I have to congratulate you with your very polite cousins. 

But I do think it's very uncommon. As an illustration: when teachers have the children write their New Year's letters here, to parents just as to grandparents, it's with *jij* - of which I'm sure they wouldn't do so if they knew *u* was used in a non negligible percentage of families.


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## Forero

Interesting that a new translation is making distinctions (_broeder_ v. _broer_, _u_ v. _jullie_) that did not exist in the original (and may be contrary to what the author intended).  I suppose English _brethren_ is used for "brothers (in the faith)" in English language Bibles for the same reason.

I have heard people insist on using _usted_ (Spanish formal singular) as a translation for _thou_ in addressing G-d, presuming _thou_ to be a formal "you", when in fact it was originally used for G-d because it is singular and frankly intimate.

What I mean to say is that our language and culture really do color how we see other languages and cultures, and ancient writings.  I have opened another thread about the origins/history of Dutch second person pronouns.  They are quite unlike their counterparts in other Germanic languages.


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## ablativ

Has this issue undergone a change during the last three or four decades?

When I was studying in Rotterdam 35 years ago, nearly all of my friends addressed their grandparents and (even more) their uncles and aunties with *u*. When talking to their parents, they usually said *je* and (occasionally) *u*, but they would have avoided to address one of their parents with a plain *jij*. 

Being a German, this formal speech sounded quite strange to my ears *in the beginning.* Later (after my study) back in my own country, I considered myself talking in an inappropriate way by addressing my uncle with "Du" and "Dich" (*jij* and *jou*). But I couldn't possibly say "Sie" (*u*); that would have been even more weird.


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