# A tea/ a coffee/ a beer/ a water/... non-count beverages with an article.



## Hotmale

Hello,
I've got a question concerning uncountable nouns. What nouns which usuallly are uncountable can in certain context behave as countable? The obvious example is _a tea _or _a coffee_. Could you give me examples of other nouns?

Thank you


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## francophone

I would have some tea, and a coffee cup...


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## hly2004

I only find one in my mind.
fish is uncountable, but can be countable when referred to as different kinds of fish.


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## panjandrum

Some other drinks are like tea and coffee in this respect.  I could ask for a  - whiskey, gin, beer, lager.  I wouldn't ask for a - water, wine, milk, juice, but strangely, a - sparkling water, white wine, chocolate milk or tomato juice sound OK.

Other examples of nouns that are both countable and non-countable include:
corn, hair, lettuce, fruit, law, chicken, chocolate, iron, lamb, ham, steel, copper, wood, bridge, football, light, cold ...
(Examples picked from a list of non-count nouns.)

In some cases, of course, the countable meaning is substantially different from the non-countable meaning - corn, iron, copper, steel, wood, bridge, cold ....

My point is not to start developing a long list - it could go on for ever and I'm sure it has been done elsewhere - but to suggest that there are many non-count nouns that are countable in the right context.


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## Hotmale

Thanks, Panjandrum. Could I ask you what's the difference between steel and a steel, cold and a cold?


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## francophone

I was trying to make a point, to put an a next to something uncountable you need to add something countable afterwards.

Correct me if i'm wrong, I'd say a steel rod, but if i passed by a steel structure, I'd would stay that is steel. 

I also would say it's cold tonight, and i've catched a cold and my bones hurt.


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## Hotmale

francophone said:


> I was trying to make a point, to put an a next to something uncountable you need to add something countable afterwards.
> 
> Correct me if i'm wrong, I'd say a steel rod, but if i passed by a steel structure, I'd would stay that is steel.
> 
> I also would say it's cold tonight, and i've catched a cold and my bones hurt.



Hi francophone,
As Panjandrum wrote "the countable meaning is substantially different from the non-countable meaning."
Let's take _copper_ - when uncountable it means _a reddish metal_, if countable it means _a police officer_.
I don't know, however, the difference between countable and uncountable _cold_ and _steel._
All I know that _steel _is a metal, and _a cold_ is an illness.


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## timpeac

Hotmale said:


> Hello,
> I've got a question concerning uncountable nouns. What nouns which usuallly are uncountable can in certain context behave as countable? The obvious example is _a tea _or _a coffee_. Could you give me examples of other nouns?
> 
> Thank you


I've heard people ask for "a water" in reply to an offer of a drink, but it strikes my ear as slightly odd.


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## francophone

And with the same analogy you don't eat a chocolate, you eat chocolate or a chocolate bar.

The difference between cold and a cold, is that a cold would refer to the disease but cold would be an adjectif.

If i said i want a water...A question would promptly arise, a water what??


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## Hotmale

francophone said:


> The difference between cold and a cold, is that a cold would refer to the disease but cold would be an adjective.
> 
> If I said I want a water...A question would promptly arise, a water what??



Francophone,
I am afraid you don't understand me .
I am interested in what _cold_ means as uncountable noun, not as an adjective.

As to _a water_, please read Timpeac's post.


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## Hotmale

timpeac said:


> I've heard people ask for "a water" in reply to an offer of a drink, but it strikes my ear as slightly odd.



Thanks, Timpeac.


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## panjandrum

Hotmale said:


> Thanks, Panjandrum. Could I ask you what's the difference between steel and a steel, cold and a cold?


Of course, though slightly off-topic this does serve to emphasise that some of the examples are not at all like tea/a tea.

In tea/a tea, the countable version is (some grammatical term whose name escapes me). When I ask for a tea, I mean a (cup of) tea, or a (drink of) tea. A whiskey is a (very large glass of) whiskey. The connection is very clear. A XXX is a portion of XXX.

Steel is the metal, *a steel* is a piece of steel used for striking sparks with flint or a steel rod used for sharpening knives (for example - there may be more). There is some connection, a XXX is a thing made of XXX.

Copper is the metal, *a copper* is a copper coin or a large cooking or washing container made of copper. Again a XXX is a thing made of XXX. 

Cold is the abstract noun, *a cold* is (in BE) what I get when smitten by a random rhinovirus (I find that "Acute rhinoviral infection" looks so much better on the sick note than "Cold"). Here a XXX is vaguely connected with XXX - based on the assumption that a cold may be caused by cold weather.

But *a copper* is also a policeman, for etymological reasons largely unconnected with the metal. There is no metallurgic connection between a XXX and XXX. Similarly, a corn has little to do with corn; a bridge is not at all related to bridge (the card game).

Edit: Just to add - *a chocolate* is a small confection created using chocolate and other ingredients.


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## Hotmale

Panjandrum,
Many, many thanks  .


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## francophone

I perfectly understand that my answers are not an asnwer to your questions, I was only stating my opinion on how wierd it is to hear a water, or a tea, or a coffee.


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## panjandrum

francophone said:


> I perfectly understand that my answers are not an asnwer to your questions, I was only stating my opinion on how wierd it is to hear a water, or a tea, or a coffee.


I can understand how this could seem weird.  With the reservations listed earlier, drinks are very often referred to as countable.  After a meal, for example, we are all going to have coffee, or perhaps tea.

The host asks, "Who wants coffee, who wants tea?"  
Then he asks a more sensible question, "Who wants coffee?" 
He counts the number of people who want coffee. 
"How many teas?"
He counts the number of people who want tea.
"OK, that will be five coffees and three teas, then."
He trundles off to the kitchen .....

I don't know about anywhere else, but this is a routine, everyday usage in my part of the world.


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## jess oh seven

francophone said:


> I perfectly understand that my answers are not an asnwer to your questions, I was only stating my opinion on how wierd it is to hear a water, or a tea, or a coffee.


If you were to go to a cafe, you would most likely ask for "a (cup of) tea" or "a (cup of) coffee". But when referring to the actual products, they do not have these indefinite articles.


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## winklepicker

jess oh seven said:


> If you were to go to a cafe, you would most likely ask for "a (cup of) tea" or "a (cup of) coffee". But when referring to the actual products, they do not have these indefinite articles.


 
Exactly - the _cup of_ part is implicit. Or in the case of a water/whisky/wine etc, it's _I'll have (a glass of)..._


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## Hotmale

panjandrum said:


> I could ask for a  - whiskey, gin, beer, lager.  I wouldn't ask for a - water, wine, milk, juice, but strangely, a - sparkling water, white wine, chocolate milk or tomato juice sound OK.



I wonder why _a tea, a coffee, a beer_, etc. and not so much _a water, a wine, a milk_, etc.
After all, we are talking about beverages in the same context. Is there any explanation?


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## Flaminius

I wonder if _a tea_ can refer to a teatime.  In other words, could I say something like below?

They have at least three teas a day; around 10 o'clock, in the afternoon and one or two hours after dinner.


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## timpeac

Flaminius said:


> I wonder if _a tea_ can refer to a teatime.  In other words, could I say something like below?
> 
> They have at least three teas a day; around 10 o'clock, in the afternoon and one or two hours after dinner.


No I don't think so and yes. I'd also like to clarify what you mean by "a tea" and "a teatime".

For the first part - we don't talk to "a tea" or "a teatime" but rather "tea" and "teatime". Examples - "what did you have for tea?" "what time is tea(time) today?" "I love teatime" "we're going to have tea together". I googled "a teatime" and you can see that where it occurs it is used as an adjective. Scanning the results I only saw one exception to that -  "there is a description of how to have *a teatime*." I find that sentence rather odd. I can imagine someone saying "we had a great tea yesterday - but I suspect in this usage the meaning has changed from what you mean (please see my last paragraph below).

For the second part - pluralising it doesn't actually say anything about "a tea" because general "tea" and specific "a tea" would both give "several tea(times) a day" as the plural.

Finally for the meaning - I suspect from your example "They have at least three teas a day; around 10 o'clock, in the afternoon and one or two hours after dinner" that you are reading "tea(time)" as a time when you drink tea (as you might well think from the word!!)? Actually, at least in the UK, "tea" and "teatime" usually refer to a meal. Exactly what that meal is changes depending on where you come from. For me "tea" means an informal lightish evening meal (an informal dinner perhaps in front of the TV) and so saying "they have 3 teas a day"* would mean they have a dinner-like meal 3 times a day not "they have 3 cups of tea day" (probably). If someone asked "what's for tea?" they mean "are we having chicken or fish?" (at least where I come from).

*EDIT - However, if you said "they have tea 3 times a day" then we would probably assume you meant a cup of tea (the interpretation of the meal is still possible, but it probably wouldn't be the first thing you'd think of in this instance).


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## tilywinn

Hotmale said:


> I wonder why _a tea, a coffee, a beer_, etc. and not so much _a water, a wine, a milk_, etc.
> After all, we are talking about beverages in the same context. Is there any explanation?


I think perhaps because with water, wine and milk, it is easier (than with tea, coffee or beer) to have ½ a glass, just a little bit, or more than 1 cup/glass/bottle. It won’t cause problems to distribute the beverage in quantities other than 1.

It would be difficult to order less than 1 cup/glass/bottle of coffee/tea/beer. Of these, tea is the easiest/most common beverage to be served with the possibility of more or less than 1 cup. If the tea comes in a teapot and not in a cup then ‘some tea’ is correct. Coffee tends to be made individually but though less frequently, it can come in a pot or plunger. Beer either comes in a bottle or a glass. I guess it could come as a jug of beer but I haven’t seen it done.

Personally with water, I would ask for ‘some water’ because it is easily refilled and I would be likely to have more than one glass. 

Personally with wine, I would ask for ‘some wine’ because I’m likely to want less than 1 glass. However, others may ask for ‘some wine’ because they want more than 1 glass. Even if one person drank 1 bottle of wine all to themselves, they wouldn’t draw attention to this and they certainly would not ask for ‘1 wine,’ meaning ‘1 bottle of wine.’ Even if someone ends up drinking 1 full glass of wine, at least they still have the possibility of having more if they ask for ‘some wine.’

I guess milk would be ‘some milk’ because it comes in cartons/containers that hold more than 1 glass. I don’t know anyone who orders ‘1 milk’ to mean ‘1 carton of milk.’ 

I don’t have a huge problem with anyone asking for ‘a milk,’ ‘a water,’ or ‘a wine.’ ‘A glass of…’ does sound better though. If they do ask for ‘a milk’ etc. I just think that they only want one. Then later they should ask if they want another. Though if I was being a good host, I would ask if they wanted anything else/another/some more, once they had finished.


Now onto this:


Flaminius said:


> I wonder if _a tea_ can refer to a teatime.  In other words, could I say something like below?
> 
> They have at least three teas a day; around 10 o'clock, in the afternoon and one or two hours after dinner.


 I can’t  think of a general term that covers all 3 of these ‘hot drinks & biscuits/cake’ times. For me you just have to say; ‘morning tea, afternoon tea and supper,’ but these terms tend to vary depending on the region. I can see how ‘teatime’ should fit, since there is ‘morning tea’ and ‘afternoon tea,’ but unfortunately it’s just not the case.

*Goes to look up threads on it* 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=243472
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=504353


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## ewie

I wholly agree with all of post #20. Where I come from we also have the very handy word _brew_ which means _a cup _(more often _a mug_) _of tea_.
So:
_I have about 10 brews a day but only one tea = _I have about 10 mugs of tea a day but only one evening meal.


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## Flaminius

timpeac said:


> Finally for the meaning - I suspect from your example (...) that you are reading "tea(time)" as a time when you drink tea (as you might well think from the word!!)? Actually, at least in the UK, "tea" and "teatime" usually refer to a meal.


Yeah, I meant what you guessed and I now remember how strange sounds to English speakers (UK).  It is one of the easiest thing I forget about English as I never drink tea with a meal.  


> However, if you said "they have tea 3 times a day" then we would probably assume you meant a cup of tea (the interpretation of the meal is still possible, but it probably wouldn't be the first thing you'd think of in this instance).


It looks like what I mean but does it strictly refer to three cups a day?  Or is it implied that more than a cup may be consumed for each time?


tilywinn said:


> I think perhaps because with water, wine and milk, it is easier (than with tea, coffee or beer) to have ½ a glass, just a little bit, or more than 1 cup/glass/bottle. It won’t cause problems to distribute the beverage in quantities other than 1.


So if something is typically served in a certain UNIT (=cup/glass/bottle), a request for "a NOUN (=tea/wine/beer)" is fulfilled by a UNIT of NOUN?



> If the tea comes in a teapot and not in a cup then ‘some tea’ is correct.


Correct for what?  Can I ask a waiter, "Could I have some tea?" in expectation that he will bring a pot, not a cup, of tea?  Actually, "some" confuses me immensely.  What would be the reaction if I order tea, neither a tea or some tea?


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## avlee

panjandrum said:


> I can understand how this could seem weird. With the reservations listed earlier, drinks are very often referred to as countable. After a meal, for example, we are all going to have coffee, or perhaps tea.
> 
> The host asks, "Who wants coffee, who wants tea?"
> Then he asks a more sensible question, "Who wants coffee?"
> He counts the number of people who want coffee.
> "How many teas?"
> He counts the number of people who want tea.
> "OK, that will be five coffees and three teas, then."
> He trundles off to the kitchen .....
> 
> I don't know about anywhere else, but this is a routine, everyday usage in my part of the world.


I'd cast my vote on this post as the closest answer to the thread.
I realize that this post is rather old, but that's not my fault. Another newly opened thread got me here.
And I did learn sth. valuable through this thread, thanks all for your efforts!


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## timpeac

Flaminius said:


> Yeah, I meant what you guessed and I now remember how strange sounds to English speakers (UK).  It is one of the easiest thing I forget about English as I never drink tea with a meal.
> 
> It looks like what I mean but does it strictly refer to three cups a day?  Or is it implied that more than a cup may be consumed for each time?


To me if someone said "they have tea 3 times a day" I would interpret that as one cup 3 times a day - although I suppose they could mean they have more than one. I think that because saying that makes it sound like you ration yourself (perhaps you've noticed that you drink way too much tea and so have restricted yourself to 3 times only) it would be odd to say that if you didn't mean one cup. In the "olden days" having a cup of tea could be a huge ceremony and so it was probably more meaningful to say how many times you bother to go through the ceremony. Today people just drink tea when they fancy one rather than at set times of the day (usually).[/quote]




Flaminius said:


> Correct for what?  Can I ask a waiter, "Could I have some tea?" in expectation that he will bring a pot, not a cup, of tea?  Actually, "some" confuses me immensely.  What would be the reaction if I order tea, neither a tea or some tea?


In the UK tea is usually (well in my experience anyway) served by the pot or the mug. The pot will come accompanied with a cup and a smaller pot of milk or a small plate with lemon if you prefer and you'll get two cups' worth probably. The mug is bigger than the cup but you'll just get one (so in total not as much as a pot) and the milk may well come added. If you just asked for "tea" you'd probably be asked "a pot or a mug?".


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## tilywinn

Flaminius said:


> So if something is typically served in a certain UNIT (=cup/glass/bottle), a request for "a NOUN (=tea/wine/beer)" is fulfilled by a UNIT of NOUN?


Well there doesn’t seem to be any ‘rules’ as such on this. It just seems to me that this is the case, based on what sounds fine and what doesn’t to most people.



Flaminius said:


> Correct for what?  Can I ask a waiter, "Could I have some tea?" in expectation that he will bring a pot, not a cup, of tea?  Actually, "some" confuses me immensely.  What would be the reaction if I order tea, neither a tea or some tea?


Sorry to confuse you, it’s confusing for me too. I should probably leave the tea thing alone since I don’t drink tea and therefore don’t order it but I’ll try to clarify: 

In my experience, if you ask a waiter for ‘some tea,’ it seems to depend upon the restaurant/café as to whether or not you receive a pot or a cup of tea. I would expect the same result if you asked for ‘tea.’ 

If you ask for ‘a tea,’ in theory you should get a cup but you might still get given a pot.

I guess the best thing to do to avoid confusion is to say exactly what you want. Either ‘a cup of tea,’ ‘a pot of tea,’ or a ‘mug of tea.’


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## Franzi

<<panj note: This post and the following two were moved from another thread.  They may seem a little disjointed as a result. >>

I agree with the explanations above. There are cases where you could use 'an', but they would mean something a bit different:

1. He is drinking an orange juice, but I'm not sure which fruit it's made from.
     ("Orange" just an adjective describing the color, not part of the noun 'orange juice'.)

2. He is drinking an orange juice.  (He is drinking one can/one order/one bottle of orange juice.)


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## audiolaik

Nun-Translator said:


> May I complicate matters? In a restaurant, you might hear:
> 
> "What would you like to drink?"
> "I'll have *an* orange juice, please." (or "a coke" or "a double espresso"...)



I think it refers to a _glass _of orange juice, a _can_ of coke, a _cup _of coffee.

However, I may be wrong; I'm not a native speaker.

PS Similarly, _two coffees _meaning _two cups of coffee._


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## Packard

Nun-Translator said:


> May I complicate matters? In a restaurant, you might hear:
> 
> "What would you like to drink?"
> "I'll have *an* orange juice, please." (or "a coke" or "a double espresso"...)
> 
> Someone who is "more native" than I will have to explain why sometimes we say "an orange juice", but in general we do not use the article.


 
"An orange juice" is just like "a beer": the vessel is "understood".

"An orange juice" is really one of the following:

A(n) [glass of, bottle of, can of] orange juice.

"A beer" is really one of the following:

A [glass, bottle, flagon, pitcher, mug] of beer.  (Though I would not choose "flagon" if I were ordering a beer in the local bistro.)


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## Ferrydog

If one is in a bar or a restaurant, to say 'do you mind bringing me a water' sounds a little awkward, even though it would be widely understood. It would sound more natural (to me at least) to say 'could you you bring/get/fetch me _*some*_ water please'. 

The use of '*a *water' does suggest a bottle of water rather than a jug or carafe of water.

<<...>>


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## AprendoSiempre

Yes, I often hear that as short for _a bottle of water_.  For example, after a race on a hot day, a friend might ask "Hey, can you get me a water?"  So I was willing to leave it in his sentence.  In most other contexts, _a water_ sounds *horribly* *wrong* to me, but in that question it's just how I've always heard it.  You're right, it's best to change it so that in general one says "some water" (which also sounds fine to me in that question) or any variation, but I wouldn't call _a water_ wrong there.

<<..>>


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## afoaofaitnol

Maybe not directly relevant to your dicussion but it is still about tea and coffee. So I found this sentence in my coursebook: _"There's also french orange juice and a choice of tea or coffee"._ I started looking everywhere on the internet for examples of "choice of tea" but nothing. Does it simply mean the restaurant offers tea AND coffee so you can choose??


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## AutumnOwl

afoaofaitnol said:


> Does it simply mean the restaurant offers tea AND coffee so you can choose??


That is how I would understand it, the guest can have either coffee or tea.


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## pob14

afoaofaitnol said:


> Does it simply mean the restaurant offers tea AND coffee so you can choose??





AutumnOwl said:


> That is how I would understand it, the guest can have either coffee or tea.


That's what it means, yes.


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## timpeac

Yes that's what it means. It's normal usage. I searched google for "choice of tea" too and there were lots of examples - remember to use the "" to make it exact.


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## afoaofaitnol

AutumnOwl, pob14, timpeac, thanks to all of you


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## EdisonBhola

panjandrum said:


> Of course, though slightly off-topic this does serve to emphasise that some of the examples are not at all like tea/a tea.
> 
> In tea/a tea, the countable version is (some grammatical term whose name escapes me). When I ask for a tea, I mean a (cup of) tea, or a (drink of) tea. A whiskey is a (very large glass of) whiskey. The connection is very clear. A XXX is a portion of XXX.
> 
> Steel is the metal, *a steel* is a piece of steel used for striking sparks with flint or a steel rod used for sharpening knives (for example - there may be more). There is some connection, a XXX is a thing made of XXX.
> 
> Copper is the metal, *a copper* is a copper coin or a large cooking or washing container made of copper. Again a XXX is a thing made of XXX.
> 
> Cold is the abstract noun, *a cold* is (in BE) what I get when smitten by a random rhinovirus (I find that "Acute rhinoviral infection" looks so much better on the sick note than "Cold"). Here a XXX is vaguely connected with XXX - based on the assumption that a cold may be caused by cold weather.
> 
> But *a copper* is also a policeman, for etymological reasons largely unconnected with the metal. There is no metallurgic connection between a XXX and XXX. Similarly, a corn has little to do with corn; a bridge is not at all related to bridge (the card game).
> 
> Edit: Just to add - *a chocolate* is a small confection created using chocolate and other ingredients.


Is this then idiomatic, or colloquial, to say something like "let's have a tea together someday" when the meaning isn't restricted to just one cup of tea but rather some tea?


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## JulianStuart

EdisonBhola said:


> Is this then idiomatic, or colloquial, to say something like "let's have a tea together someday" when the meaning isn't restricted to just one cup of tea but rather some tea?


I would say no.  It sounds like you would be sharing one cup of tea with the other person.


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## EdisonBhola

JulianStuart said:


> I would say no.  It sounds like you would be sharing one cup of tea with the other person.


Thanks! What would be a better alternative?
"Let's have some tea together someday"?


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## RM1(SS)

"Let's have some tea together someday."


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## Angelya

Hi, all! Is it possible to say _I would love a beer and some coffee_? Looking forward to your replies!


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## ewie

Hullo Angelya.  It's certainly linguistically possible ...

... but people might think you were a bit insane to drink beer and coffee _at the same time_


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## RM1(SS)

Don't be silly -- she'd alternate swigs, not drink them at the same time! 

Picturing her with a beer and a mug of coffee, each with its own straw, both straws in her mouth....


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## Roymalika

I am telling my students my daily routine of what I take as a breakfast.
I say: I eat a paratha with omelette and drink *a* tea.

Is it correct to use "a tea" here when I mean "a cup of tea"?


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## heypresto

Yes, but we almost certainly wouldn't say this. We'd say something like 'I _have _a paratha with an omelette, and a cup of tea.

We don't need to say 'eat' and 'drink' as it is obvious. We tend to say '_have_ an omelette (or whatever), and '_have _a cup of tea.'


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> we almost certainly wouldn't say this.


Can you tell me when you'd say "a tea", please?


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## Packard

You can use it in most instances, but it sounds less colloquial and less conventional than other options.

You can say, "Three beer, please" and that would be correct for "three (bottles/glasses/mugs/cans of) beer".  But it is far more conventional to say, "Three beers, please."

The same for "aspirin".  The plural of "aspirin" is "aspirin tablets".  But we don't say, "Can I have two aspirin, please?"  We do say, "Can I have two aspirins?"


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## heypresto

Personally I would never say it because I hate the stuff and never drink it, but I guess you could say something like 'I'll make myself a tea', (but more natural would be 'a _cup of _tea'), or, in a café , 'A tea and two coffees please.'

I don't know why, but 'a coffee' is far more common, than 'a tea'.


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## Roymalika

Thanks a lot.

I've another question.



> "Let's have some tea together someday."


Edison asked about this sentence in #39.
And RM1 crossed out "some" from it in #40.
I wonder what's wrong with "some" in this sentence, please?
The sentence sounds better with it, doesn't it?


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## heypresto

It depends on what 'tea' means here. If it means the drink, then 'some tea' sounds odd, but if it's the afternoon light meal that some people have, then 'some tea' sounds OK.

If you mean 'Let's (meet and) have _a cup of_ tea together sometime', then that's what sounds most natural. 

But, because 'a coffee' is more common, 'Let's have a coffee sometime' sounds very natural.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> If it means the drink, then 'some tea' sounds odd


Sorry, but why does it sound odd? Can't we use 'some' with liquids like milk, juice, water etc? (some milk, some juice, some water...)


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## heypresto

Yes, in sentences like 'Would you like some tea?' or 'I fancy some tea', it (some tea) sounds fine, but but it sounds odd in 'Let's meet for some tea.'

Similarly 'Let's meet for some milk/juice/water' would also sound odd.


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## dojibear

Roymalika said:


> Can you tell me when you'd say "a tea", please?


It means "one cup of tea". Or if you are ordering in a restaurant, it means "one order of tea".

In English we use the countable phrases "a <container> of <uncountable>" and "a <quantity> of <uncountable>". That is standard and grammatical. So it is used almost everywhere. 

When can "container of" or "quantity of" be omitted? That is different in different dialects, and different in different situations.
There is no single official answer. There is just "how we say it, here in LancasterShireTownVilleCity..." 

In my dialect, it is not common. Nobody says "a coffee" or "a tea". It's always "a cup of...".


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