# I don't think it is still raining



## giacinta

Ciao a tutti,

Come si tradurebbe questa frase in italiano? 

Penso che non piova ancora O
Non penso che piova ancora.

Io preferirei la prima tentativa.
E' sbagliata la seconda?

In inglese suona strano dire "I think it is no longer raining" piuttosto che "I don't think it is still raining".

Grazie,

Giacinta


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## CPA

_Non credo che stia ancora piovendo. _


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## Yulan

Ciao Giacinta, 

Penso che non piova ancora = I think it does not rain yet 
Non penso che piova ancora = I don't think it's still raining 

Anche la proposta di CPA va benissimo!

Complimenti per il tuo italiano!!!


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## Pratolini

Yulan said:


> Ciao Giacinta,
> 
> Penso che non piova ancora = I think it does not rain yet - should be I don't think it's raining yet
> Non penso che piova ancora = I don't think it's still raining
> 
> Anche la proposta di CPA va benissimo!
> 
> Complimenti per il tuo italiano!!!


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## GavinW

I'm sure Yulan is grateful for the helpful correction! Unfortunately, from the colour of type you used, it looked as if your correction was the erroneous version, and that the correct version was the original (in black)! 
I only say this so others don't jump to the wrong conclusion, as I was in danger of doing...
;-)


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## Pratolini

Thanks Gavin. I have amended my original post


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## Yulan

Hello Gavin

Though I am always glad whenever someone corrects my mistakes: I have to point out that Pratolini's version (i.e., the first version I changed) is correct in* English*, but the question was about the Italian version and my change was related to a possible (mis)understanding of the Italian sentence since the "negative form +  ancora" may lead astray: 

- Sta piovendo?
- E' nuvoloso, ma penso che *NON* *piova ancora* [ossia,  non ha ancora iniziato, ma sicuramente pioverà] 

- Is it raining?
- It's cloudy but I think it *doesn't rain* yet [i.e., it has not started yet, but it's going to surely]

So in Italian it is better to say: 

- Sta ancora piovendo? 
- No, *NON penso* che piova *ancora* 

- Is it still raining?
- No, *I dont' think* it's still raining 

I do not know if that was clear  but I hope so.

Thanks


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Sorry, folks.
After saying aloud the various versions to myself, I'm ready to state that one possible meaning of "Non penso che piova ancora" _can_ be rendered by "I don't think it's raining yet" (the black stuff, Gav). Maybe, to be a little finicky, a small comma might be inserted after "piova".
Best.
GS


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## marcolettici

It is possible to split the verb with "Non credo che ancora piova?"


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## Scopa Nuova

Many years ago when I was studying English in elementry school, If I said,

"I don't think it is still raining", My English teacher would say,

"When you start thinking, let me know", and said the correct way to say it is, 

"I think it is no longer raining". Therefore, my preference in Italian is,

*"Penso che non piova più"*


*SN*


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## giacinta

Dear SN,

I agree with your teacher.  
If you say " I don't think it is still raining" that could be taken to mean " I don't think i it is raining, I know it is still raining", so it is probably technically more correct to say " I think it is no longer raining".  In reality, however, we do say " I don't think it is still raining" to express an opinion.

Given that in Italian, the present may be used to refer to the future, I wonder whether your rendition may not be translated as " I don't think it is going to rain anymore"! ?   A further complication!

Giacinta


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## Pratolini

Maybe it's better to use the present continuous:
Penso che non stia piovendo più/più piovendo.  That would remove the ambiguity.


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## marcolettici

giacinta said:


> Dear SN,
> 
> I agree with your teacher.
> If you say " I don't think it is still raining" that could be taken to mean " I don't think i it is raining, I know it is still raining", so it is probably technically more correct to say " I think it is no longer raining".  In reality, however, we do say " I don't think it is still raining" to express an opinion.
> 
> Given that in Italian, the present may be used to refer to the future, I wonder whether your rendition may not be translated as " I don't think it is going to rain anymore"! ?   A further complication!
> 
> Giacinta



I would have to respectfully disagree with SN's teacher and the implication that there is anything complicated about saying or understanding "I don't think it's still raining." "I" is the subject.  "don't think it is still raining" is the complete predicate.  The "don't" is a negation of the complete predicate "think it is still raining," not just the simple predicate "think."  

Everyone knows exactly what is meant, and to torment a little kid over that kind of grammatical ambivilence (which doesn't really even exist except in the mind of the tormenter) is silly.


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## Yulan

Scopa Nuova said:


> Many years ago when I was studying English in elementry school, If I said,
> 
> "I don't think it is still raining", My English teacher would say,
> 
> "When you start thinking, let me know", and said the correct way to say it is,
> 
> "I think it is no longer raining". Therefore, my preference in Italian is,
> 
> *"Penso che non piova più"*
> 
> 
> *SN*


 

Hello SN,

Actually Giacinta was not asking for the English correction (see the topic): she was asking about the Italian version.

Since the original English sentence is "I don't think it is still raining" we have tried to keep to the original words being used.

"Penso che non piova più" is perfect Italian, though in this case Giacinta's question would be about "I think it doesn't rain anymore".

I believe we all thought that her doubts were about the right position of that "ancora" in a negative form and this is why we tried to explain.

Ciao


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## giacinta

Actually, all this came about because an Italian boy here in Melbourne who is studying English said to me " I think it is not raining still".  I replied that in English we would say " I don't think it is raining any more" or ' I don't think it is still raining". 

As one can often learn Italian from the way Italians speak English (for example " I live here since 3 years") I asked him how he would say it in Italian and he used the "positive", ovvero he said " Penso che non piova ( I don't remember if he said "ancora" or "piu").  What interested me was that he didn't use the negative  IE he didn't say "non penso che...".
So i was wondering if this was always the case.   He said it was!  I was just checking!

Perhaps it would have been different had he used the verb "credere" ...I  don't know!  Is there any difference?
Thanks for all the replies.
Giacinta


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## Yulan

Hi Giacinta  

In this context "credere" and "pensare" have the same acceptation.

To go back to your first question, I think that your English sentence

"*I don't think it is still raining"* would literally translate as
*"Non penso che stia ancora piovendo"*

Hope this helps


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## giacinta

Thanks Yulan,

That makes sense to me. 
So, if 'ancora' is before the verb it means 'still'.  After the verb it means "yet".  
Non penso che stia piovendo ancora" = I don't think it is raining yet.
And if you say " non penso che stia piovendo piu'"?
Giusto?

Giacinta


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## puli_dog

Hi all,
I feel that 'penso che non' has a slightly stronger meaning compared with 'non penso che', being the first more assertive and the latter more dubitative.
...my feeling only?


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## Yulan

giacinta said:


> Thanks Yulan,
> 
> That makes sense to me.
> So, if 'ancora' is before the verb it means 'still'. After the verb it means "yet".
> Non penso che stia piovendo ancora" = I don't think it is raining yet.
> And if you say " non penso che stia piovendo piu'"?
> Giusto?
> 
> Giacinta


 

Hi Giacinta 

It *may *mean. Actually it is the kind of sentence (related to weather conditions) that involves a certain ambiguity.

In fact, you could say:

- He has not arrived yet:

Non penso che sia ancora arrivato
Non penso che sia arrivato ancora

and that would not generate any doubt.

Ciao


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## Scopa Nuova

I see that While I was sleeping last night there was a lot of activity in this thread with wordsmithing (rifinitura in italiano, più o meno). After reading through everyone's comments these are my observations:
There are obviously two schools of thought with regard to, "I think" and "I don't think".
The initial question by giacinta was asking about the alternatives:

*Penso che non piova ancora* = I think that it is no longer raining
*Non penso che piova ancora* = I don't think it is still raining


The question in No. 2 opened up th discussion to the issues in No. 1
I don't feel tormented in any way by my teacher but thank her for showing me how to think logically.
Giacinta herself said she agreed with my teacher, indicating the English was open for discussion or at least she had no objection to discussing the English.
I believe discussing the English is in keeping with the intent of the Forum. It is the Italian- English FORUM, not the Italian only FORUM.
Giancinta said the whole issue started because an Italian boy in Melbourne said, "I think it is not raining still". Giancinta asked the Italian boy how he woud say it in Italian, he used the positive approach*, "Penso che non piova.*
The fact that a second language normally states this as a positive statement indicates it is the preferred approach.
Putting all of this together surely seems to me including the English in the discussion is not off topic.
I will stipulate that many English speaking people will say, "I don't think that............"and the person is understood.
Many people also say,

"It is me" instead of "It is I"
"It is her" instead of "It is she"
"She is with you and I" instead of "She is with you and me"

and they are violating the current grammar rules but we understand them. (Please don't include the above arguments in this thread. They are alreaded covered in several other threads. I included them only as examples. )
We understand them because we humans take into account the context of the conversation. A computer would flag it as wrong, period.
However, I defend the right for everyone to have their opinion.
SN


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, everyone.

Everything started from this "minimal pair" of sentences and the way they can be rendered in English:

1. Penso che non piova ancora 
2. Non penso che piova ancora

_What  do they mean?_

1.a 
_I have reasons to believe that the wheather phenomenon known as "rain" has not started yet: _

"I think it hasn't started raining yet"
"I think it's still not raining"
"I think it's not raining yet"

1.b 
_I have reasons to believe that the wheather phenomenon known as "rain" is no longer in progress:_

"I think it's stopped raining"
"I don’t think it's still raining" 

2.a
_I have no reasons to believe that the wheather phenomenon known as "rain" has started yet:_ 

"I don’t think it has started raining yet"
"I don’t think it's still not raining"
"I don’t think it's raining yet"

2.b
_I have no reasons to believe that the wheather phenomenon known as "rain" is still in progress:_ 

“I don’t think it’s still raining

All the best.
GS


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## Yulan

Ciao Giorgio  

Grandioso! Più esaustivo di così si muore!

Ciao


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## CPA

Meanwhile, it's still raining here, but whether we shall weather this awful weather is another matter.


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## Scopa Nuova

CPA said:


> Meanwhile, it's still raining here, but whether we shall weather this awful weather is another matter.


 

Simple CPA. Just don't think about it!


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## giacinta

Tanto per chiarirci:
Penso che non piova ancora = I don't think it is raining yet.

Non penso che piova ancora= I don't think it is still raining.
???
Giacinta


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## Scopa Nuova

giacinta said:


> Tanto per chiarirci:
> Penso che non piova ancora = I don't think it is raining yet.
> 
> Non penso che piova ancora= I don't think it is still raining.
> ???
> Giacinta


 

I guess what you are saying here is that you didn't get a clear answer. I'm sorry if your original questions got lost in the debate and I will do my best to give you a clear answer.

*Secondo me;*

*Penso che non piova ancora =* I think it is not raining yet. This means somebody was expecting rain but to your knowledge the rain has not yet started.

*Non penso che piova ancora=* I don't think it is raining yet. This is a difficult one. I would say there is doubt in your mind if it is or is not raining. Unless that's what you really mean to say I would avoid this response. It's too ambiguous. At least that's my opinion. I invite anyone to eiher confirm my response or provide a better one for you. No one should go away from this forum feeling they got an inadequate response.

SN


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## marcolettici

It seems like the issue is with "ancora" meaning both "still" and "yet."  

I don't think it's still raining.  --I don't think it continues to rain. (I don't know for sure that it does not continue to rain, but that is my opinion, or best guess.  To confirm my suspicion I would look out the window.)

I don't think it's raining yet.  --I don't think it has begun to rain as of this moment.  (But I do believe it will rain at sometime in the near future. Again, to confirm, I would look out the window.)

At least this is what my west coast AE ears tell me.  Neither statement seems at all ambiguous to me.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

I apologize to the whole gang for my reiteration of that silly typo.
I believe that a powerful key to the various interpretations of the two sentences can be found in the polysemy of the word "ancora". This adverb has at least the following different meanings:
1. per ora, finora, fino ad ora (for the time being)
2. un'altra volta, di nuovo (again)
3. in più, in aggiunta (more)
4. a quel tempo, tuttora (still) 
5. (in negatives and with reference to the future) yet
All the best.
GS


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## Scopa Nuova

Thanks Giorgio, for your informative explanation. I hope this clears up any questions in giancinta's mind. If there is a debatable message a certain wording gives, I usually try to reword it to avoid any misunderstanding. A*ncora *seems to be the kind of word that requires context to fully understand the writers intended meaning.

SN


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Absolutely, SN.
Best.
GS


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## marcolettici

Thanks Giorgio.  You're explanations are always most helpful and precise.


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