# 機械がじぶんで動き出した



## Pacerier

Is it true that the following sentence:

機械がひとりでに動き出した

can also be correctly written as:

機械がじぶんで動き出した

if the speaker considers the 機械 to be "human" ? (like for example a robot that can "think" by itself)


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## Sumi!

Yes.　if you use じぶんで、 機械 is treated as human as you pointed out.


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## uchi.m

Machines cannot be treated as _jibun_. It would be better phrased as _jidouteki ni_.

Cheers

Uchi.m


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## Pacerier

hmm ok, will it sound weird to refer to a robot as じぶんで or will it actually sound quite normal?


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## Aoyama

The meaning can be understood (hitoride, without ni/jibunde), but it will sound strange, even as a "writer's figure of speech" ...
I agree with uchi.m that jidouteki ni (here, ni OK) sounds more Japanese.
As to using "jibunde" with a robot, I would say it is possible, as a robot can be identified to a human being (provided it has a shape ressembling a human being). It would NOT apply to a robot making cars.


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## almostfreebird

Pacerier said:


> 機械が*ひとりでに*動き出した



機械が*ひとりでに*動き出した implies the machine began to move unexpectedly, freely when it was supposed to stand still.

You could substitute *勝手に* for  ひとりでに in this case.:

機械がひとりでに動き出した ＝ 機械が勝手に動き出した


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## Aoyama

> You could substitute *勝手に* for  ひとりでに in this case.:
> 
> 機械がひとりでに動き出した ＝ 機械が勝手に動き出した


 
勝手に    =whimsically (kimagureni), arbitrarily. It is also a personification of the machine.
One question : is the に in ひとりでに really necessary ? I would think that ひとりで動き出した is enough.
My mistake : ひとりでに is a given expression, でに is OK. I still wonder _why_ because it defies grammar ...


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## uchi.m

almostfreebird said:


> 機械が*ひとりでに*動き出した implies the machine began to move unexpectedly, freely when it was supposed to stand still.
> 
> You could substitute *勝手に* for  ひとりでに in this case.:
> 
> 機械がひとりでに動き出した ＝ 機械が勝手に動き出した


機械がさき止まっていた様子に反対し働きだしたわけではなく、機械が自動的に起動した、そのものを示しているんではないのかなと思っていますが。



Aoyama said:


> 勝手に    =whimsically (kimagureni), arbitrarily. It is also a personification of the machine.
> One question : is the に in ひとりでに really necessary ? I would think that ひとりで動き出した is enough.
> My mistake : ひとりでに is a given expression, でに is OK. I still wonder _why_ because it defies grammar ...


My input method editor gives me 独りでに; the で might be written as 出, perhaps? (just a guess)


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## Pacerier

Is ひとりで even allowed? I thought it Must be ひとりでに and ひとりで would mean another thing altogether?


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## Aoyama

I don't thing で can be written as 出. I think the expression is originally ひとりで with に added. The thing is that で and に employed together appear redundant or pleonastic, but it is correct.
This being said ひとりで is very correct as well, because you can say : ひとりでbenkyosuru/ひとりでyatta/ひとりでtsukutta/ ひとりでgaishutsu shita etc.
Now, those examples may also be constructed with ひとりでに, but I don't think the usage is common.


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## xiaolijie

Pacerier said:


> Is ひとりで even allowed? I thought it Must be ひとりでに and ひとりで would mean another thing altogether?


You're right. There seems to have been some confusion between 独りでに (=spontaneously, of its own accord) and 独りで (= alone, by oneself).


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## Pacerier

Ok thanks all for the help =)


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## uchi.m

Pacerier said:


> Ok thanks all for the help =)


You're wel-come


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## NTV

*機械が独りでに動き出す。*
機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず（unexpectedly）動き出すことではありません。

*機械が独りで動き出す。*
「独りで（一人で）」と「独りでに」の意味は異なります。この文は誤りです。

*機械が勝手に動き出す。*
辞書には
◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意
とあります。
機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。


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## almostfreebird

> 機械が独りでに動き出す。
> 機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず（unexpectedly）動き出すことではありません。
> 
> 機械が勝手に動き出す。
> 辞書には
> ◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意
> とあります。
> 機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。





That's my feeling I get from the sentence.
That's why you cannot find it in your dictionary.(^_^)

peace out >^,,^<


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## almostfreebird

NTVさん said:
			
		

> *機械が独りでに動き出す。*
> 機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず（unexpectedly）動き出すことではありません。
> 
> *機械が勝手に動き出す。*
> 辞書には
> ◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意
> とあります。
> 機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。



Umeさん NTVさん、I found some examples:

*郵便屋さんが、勝手に動き出した自分の車を止めようとして*… http://etyuui.blogspot.com/2011/05/blog-post_2806.html

*深夜,レンジが勝手に動き出した*.  http://senpou.cocolog-nifty.com/sousen/2009/01/post-ccf8.html

*車が勝手に動き出した話* http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/s_wrecker24/3007532.html

*ペンが勝手に動き出したような錯覚がするほどなめらか!* http://www.office21.net/sys/syousai_612_and_BLN75AW.html


peace out >^,,^<


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