# Persian and Urdu Specialised/technical terminology



## arsham

Inspired by this thread(
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1234402 )
 on middle/average, I wonder how close the technical/specialised terminologies of Persian and Urdu are. Here are few elements often used to form various scientific/technical compounds, would any of them be productive in Urdu?


1- شناس šenās present stem of شناختن šenāxtan
زیست شناس zīst-šenās biologist
زیست شناختی zīst-šenāxtī biological
زیست شناسی zīst-šenāsī biology
additional examples : باستان شناسی bāstān-šenāsī archaeology; جانورشناسی jānevar-šenāsī zoology; دیرین شناسی dīrīn-šenāsī paleontology etc.
2- سنج sanj present stem of سنجیدن sanjīdan
دماسنج damā-sanj thermometer; نیروسنج nīrū-sanj dynamometer زمان سنج zamān-sanj chronometer etc.
3- نگار negār present stem of نگاشتن negāštan
واژه نگار vāže-negār lexicographer
واژه نگاری vāže-negārī lexicography
آب نگاری āb-negārī hydrography; قلب نگاری qalb-negārī electrocardiography
4- کاف/کافت kāf/kāft stems of کافتن kāftan
برق کافت barq-kāft electrolysis
برق کافتی barq-kāftī electrolytic
برق کافه barq-kāfe electrolyte
آب کافت hydrolysis
There are of course other elements used to form compounds, which we can discuss !
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1234402


----------



## Faylasoof

Arsham, 

For ease of comparison I have listed in *blue* the terms we use in *Urdu* for the Farsi ones you mentioned. In *purple* are *the principles* behind their usage as relative to ones used for Persian terminology. 

1- شناس šenās present stem of شناختن šenāxtan

زیست شناس zīst-šenās biologist 
_maahir-e__-Hayatiyaat_ماہِر حَياتِيات

زیست شناختی zīst-šenāxtī biological
_Hayaatiyaatee_حیاتیاتی

زیست شناسی zīst-šenāsī biology 
_Hayatiyaat / 3ilm-e-Hayaat_حیاتیات ۔ عِلمِ حیات ۔

additional examples :
باستان شناسی bāstān-šenāsī archaeology; 
_3ilm-e-aathaare-qadeemah_عِلم آثار قدیمہ ; 
باستان شناس archaeologist 
_maahir-e-aathaariyaat_, ماہِر آثاریات ,
_maahir-e-aathaar-e-qadeemah_ ماہِر آثار قدیمہ

جانورشناسی jānevar-šenāsī zoology; 
_Hayvaaniyaat, 3ilm-e-Havaaniyaat_حیوانیات؛ علم الحیوانات؛
دیرین شناسی dīrīn-šenāsī paleontology etc.
قدیم رکازیات ۔قدیم حیاتیات
*[Urdu uses various ways to express what in Farsi is shanaas / shanaasee – we also use these words but as you can see not here.]*

2- سنج sanj present stem of سنجیدن sanjīdan
دماسنج damā-sanj thermometer; 
_tapish paymaa / Harr paymaa / tharmomeetar /Haraarat paymaa_ etc. تیش پیما ۔ حَر پیما ۔ تھرمامیڑ ۔ حرارت پیما 
نیروسنج nīrū-sanj dynamometer 
_T__aaqat paymaa_ طاقت پیما 
زمان سنج zamān-sanj chronometer
_saa3at paymaa / waqt paymaa_ساعت پیماوقت پیما۔
etc.
*[Urdu uses paymaa while Farsi uses sanj]*

3- نگار negār present stem of نگاشتن negāštan

واژه نگار vāže-negār lexicographer
_lughat navees / lughat nigaar_لُغَت نَويس ۔ لُغَت نِگار ۔
واژه نگاری vāže-negārī lexicography
_lughat naveesee / lughat nigaaree_ لُغَت نَويسی ۔ لُغَت نِگاری
آب نگاریāb-negārī hydrography; 
_aab nigaaree / baHr o daryaa nigaaree_آب نگاری ۔ بحرو دريا نگاری
قلب نگاری qalb-negārī electrocardiography
_barqee qalb nigaaree_برقی قلب نگاری
*[Both Urdu and Farsi use nigaaree, additionally we use naveesee]*

4- کاف/کافت kāf/kāft stems of کافتن kāftan
برق کافت barq-kāft electrolysis 
_barq paashee_ بَرق پاشی۔
برق کافتی barq-kāftī electrolytic 
_Muta3llaq-e-barq paashee barq paashyat_بَرق پاشیتبرق پاشیمتعلق
َ برق کافه barq-kāfe electrolyte
_barq paash_برق پاش
آب کافت hydrolysis
_aab paasheedgee / aab paashee_آب پاشيدگی ۔ آب پاشی

*[Urdu uses paash / paashee etc. instead of the Farsi kaaft ]*


----------



## arsham

Faylasoof,

The usage of paymaa, from paymudan=1- to measure 2- to go, to proceed 3- to drink, is interesting. In Iran it's mostly used in the second sense, hence havaa-peymaa airplane (but there's also peymaayesh=measurement)!

What really intrigued me is the usage of paash-, from paashidan to sprinkle, instead of kaaftan stems (perhaps this verb is not used in Urdu at all). In Iran , a watering can/sprinkler is called aab-paash !!

As for the equivalents of the -shenaasi compounds, the Urdu words are/appear to be similar to their Arabic counterparts (like ilm al-a7yaa for biology). 

-ism words are variously translated in Persian:
1- mostly using geraayii from geraayiidan
mellii-geraayii nationalism, aarmaan-geraayii idealism
2- using -iigarii, when the ism is derived from an adjective
vahaabiigarii wahabism, sufigarii sufism (we also use tasavvof)
3- other verb stems in particular parastii as in
nezhaad-parastii racism; also sarmaaye-daarii capitalism

In Arabic most of these words are translated as feminine adjectives (ex. irqiyya for racism or ra'smaaliyya for capitalism). How does it work in Urdu?
I've got other things to compare as well, so I'll send another post soon!


----------



## arsham

here are bunch of other affixes and elements:
1- سان sān, suffix indicating similarity
گربه سانان gorbesānān felidae; سگسانان sagsānān canidae; گوزنسانان gavaznsānān cervidae etc.
2- وا vā, originally a variant of باز/واز bāz/vāz (open; again)
واگراییدن vāgerāyīdan to diverge; وایونیدن vāyonīdan to deionize; وامغناطیدن vāmeghnātīdan to demagnetize; واجفتیدگی vājoftīdegī decoupling etc.
this prefix is also productive in everyday language ex. وارفتن vāraftan to lose shape/consistency
3-پیرا pīrā, as in
پیراپزشکی pīrāpezeškī paramedicine; پیراتنابه pīrātanābe perilymph; پیرابین pīrābīn periscope
4-درمانی darmānī as in 
پرتودرمانی partow-darmānī radiotherapy/radiation therapy; روان درمانی ravān-darmānī psychotherapy; آب درمانی āb-darmānī hydrotherapy


----------



## panjabigator

Wonderful discussion.  I'm afraid I can't add anything but questions.

Faylasoof, one of the transliterations does not match the Nastaliq.  Which is it?


> _Hayvaaniyaat, 3ilm-e-Havaaniyaat_حیوانیات؛ علم الحیوانات؛



I'm a fan of these Urdu constructions; they make sense and are intuitive.  

What does "qalb" mean here?  I remember reading once in a "salaam" poem "hamare qalb o jigar"; any idea what it means or if this is an active phrase?


----------



## arsham

qalb is the arabic word for heart, its Persian equivalent is del دل


----------



## panjabigator

Thank you.  I seem to recall that now.  Contextually, it makes lots of sense now. 
(The Salaam was from Muharram).


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Wonderful discussion.
> 
> Faylasoof, one of the transliterations does not match the Nastaliq.  Which is it?
> 
> 
> I'm a fan of these Urdu constructions; they make sense and are intuitive.
> 
> What does "qalb" mean here?  I remember reading once in a "salaam" poem "hamare qalb o jigar"; any idea what it means or if this is an active phrase?



   Hello PG,

I noticed the transliteration error too but it was too late to edit!!  It should be:

*3ilm-e-Hayvaanaat* 

The phrase ‘hamare qalb o jigar’ is very much alive and kicking. Used for expressing emotions. So you’ll hear <humare qalb o jigar ko yahaa.n sukoon nah milaa> = I didn’t find solace here. 

For expressing affection and love for someone very dear to you, one can use a similar phrase: <humaraa khoon-e-jigar o lakht-e-jigar>. All a relic of ancient medicine where the liver (jigar) was considered the most important organ for health and well-being. BTW, it also became a ‘takhallus’ of a famous Urdu poet, viz. Jigar Muradabadi.  

…. and qalb (Arabic) = dil (Farsi & Urdu) = heart, as Arsham has already explained.

_Which / whose <salaam> was this? Perhaps we may need a new thread. I'm quite curious._


----------



## Faylasoof

Arsham,

In Urdu too peymaayesh=measurement. I know you use havaa-peymaa = airplane. We say: havaai jahaaz

_…and I’m not sure when we ended up with this use of paash- because in Urdu also we have the word aab-paashee = sprinkling water! Anyway, here we are._

We use quite a lot of Arabic words and their derivatives in technical terminologies, hence, as you note the Farsi -shenaasi compounds, in Urdu use Arabic counterparts. For example, <-ism> mostly –iyyat, e.g.: nationalism = qaumiyyat, idealism = ‘uSooliyyat / tasavvuriyyat /mithaaliyyat – but we also have ‘uSool parastee!!
Similarly, your  vahaabiigarii wahabism  becomes vahaabiyyat. But Sufism is always tasavvuf. 

_We also use –parastii quite a lot e.g.Racism = nasl parastii or naslee 3Sabiyyat and capitalism= sarmaayah parastee etc._


1- سان sān, suffix indicating similarity 
In Urdu its saa or ke aysaa. Used in poetry too.e.g.Mir’s taunt to an ‘akhund’: 
<_gadhaa saa ladaa phirtaa hai shaikh har soo_!>
 Like a laden ass the shaikh roams all over!       
 (gadhaa = khar = ass) 


2- وا vā, originally a variant of باز/واز bāz/vāz (open; again)
واگراییدن vāgerāyīdan to diverge;
phaylnaa / muntashir honaa / munHarif honaa 
*پھیلنا /   مُنتشر ہونا /  مُنحَرِف ہونا*

وایونیدن vāyonīdan to deionize;
 be aa’in karnaa بے آئن كرنا
وامغناطیدن vāmeghnātīdan to demagnetize;
maqnaa rubaa’nee karnaaمقنا ربائنی کرنا
واجفتیدگی vājoftīdegī decoupling etc.
bejuftigee  بیجفتگی(to decpouple =  bejuftigee karnaaبیجفت كرنا,)

[this prefix is also productive in everyday language ex. وارفتن vāraftan to lose shape/consistency 
_In Urdu vaa وا used mostly in poetry!

 Hasad se dil agar afsurdah hai maHv-e-tamaashaa ho

 to shaayad chashm-e-tang kathrat-e-naZZaarah se *vaa *ho ]_ 


3-پیرا pīrā, as in
پیراپزشکی pīrāpezeškī paramedicine;
payraa Tibbee  پیرا طِبی
Paramagnetic= pyaraa maqnaa_T_eesee پیرا مقناطیسی
پیراتنابه pīrātanābe perilymph 
 Haul-e-tanaabah حولِ  تنابه
پیرابین pīrābīn periscope  
حول بین ۔ اطراف بین

4-درمانی darmānī as in
پرتودرمانی partow-darmānī radiotherapy/radiation therapy
shu3aa rezii / rediayaaee 3ilaaj شُعاع ریزی عِلاج /  ریڈیائی علاج
روان درمانی ravān-darmānī psychotherapy 
nafseeyaatee 3ilaaj /nafsee mu3aalijah / zihnee 3ilaaj
نَفسیَاتی عِلاج / نفسی معالجہ / ذہنی عِلَاج 
آب درمانیāb-darmānī hydrotherapy 
3ilaaj bilmaa’ / aabee 3ilaajعلاج بالمآ ۔ آبی علاج
_
Please let me know if you spot any mistakes of transliteration etc.!_


----------



## arsham

In Persian there's also سا and more commonly آسا as in پلنگ آسا، معجزه آسا، رعدآسا etc, but these are not scientific terms, as you know. They either belong to the formal register of the language or to its literary level.

The Urdu equivalents for -therapy compounds are very similar to the arabic ones especially علاج بلماء .


----------



## Faylasoof

> The Urdu equivalents for -therapy compounds are very similar to the arabic ones especially علاج بلماء .


I think this one will be used less than آبی علاج . But as you notice we do use a lot of Arabic words for technical terminology. 
Here are a few more examples. Some entirely Arabic based some a mixture of Persian-Arabic:
Electrophoresis = barqee tanaqqul برقی تنقل ; Centrifuge = markaz guzeerah مرکز گزیرہ ; Centrifugation = markaz guzeerigee مرکز گَریزی; Gene = جِین / مورثہ / کونیہ / نَسبہ; Gene mutation = etc. مورثہ/ جِینتَبدُّل نَسبہ / ; Gene splicing = etc. ادخالِ موروثہ /نوارثہ کاری


----------



## arsham

One thing that is of import (at least in the case of Persian) is the way the loanwords are handled in the scientific language. In Iran, the body in charge of coordinating various academic institutions in coining equivalents and providing them with guidelines and rules is the Persian Academy (short for the academy of Persian language and literature فرهنگستان زبان و ادب فارسی, here's their website www.persianacademy.ir ). Under Shah's regime, a puristic line of thought was pursued by the academy and of course it posed problems. For example, the previous academy had problems with قطبیدن qotbīdan to polarize, because it's a verb derived from an arabic noun, let alone "blasphemies" like یونیدن to ionize from یون ion (cf. French ion), کوانتیدن kuāntīdan to quantize from or بلاگیدن belāgīdan that is gaining ground at least on the blogoshpere (بلاگستان ) ! The current academy have adopted a more pragmatic approach prefering Persian roots only when semantically befitting (though their approach is not perfect and has been criticised!). As a result, once a foreign is accepted, it's treated like a Persian word, hence the aforementioned derivatives. Here are few others:
ژن شناسی žen-šenāsī genetics
ژن نمود žen-nemūd genotype; all from ژن gene (cf. French gène);
but mutation=جهش jaheš
BTW, in Persian too centrifugation = گریز از مرکز gorīz az markaz but centrifuge=گریزانه gorīzāne, though the french equivalent is also used! For electrophoresis I think it's برق بردگی barq-bordegī !


----------



## BP.

Wow that's some discussion. Unfortunately I'm the _ajhal-ul-jahileen_ when it comes to Urdu or Persian tech. terminology, even though many of the ones you listed ring a bell and others make sense as well. Fayla biraadar, do they teach those terms at school? AFAIK even people who've studied Urdu-mediaum tend to go the easy way and use English equivalents.

arsham are you sure that terminology would be understandable at the first glance to other Parsi-speaking populations? You in Iran are so big on اختراع (innovation) that I don't think so.


----------



## arsham

BelligerentPacifist said:


> arsham are you sure that terminology would be understandable at the first glance to other Parsi-speaking populations? You in Iran are so big on اختراع (innovation) that I don't think so.


 
If by innovation you mean scientific innovtion, I think Iran has got a lot to catch up with ! but if you meant terminlogy innovation, then yes there's indeed a problem! I am not aware of the situation in Tadjikistan, but Afghans do not use these words, they tend to favour the English terms or make up some thing. There's also pressure from the afghan goverment not to used "iranian" words, for example few monhs ago, when an afghan reporter working for a local channel used the words daaneshgaah(university) and daaneshjoo(university student) instead of the pashtun equivalent for uniersity and muhassel for student, he got banned from reportng by the goverment!!?


----------



## BP.

Quiet obviously I wasn't referring to your scientific اختراع پردازی, only the ندرت of your vocabulary! 

janaab-e-waalaa, the incident you alluded to was over the journalist using the 'Iranian' Farsi words instead of Dari ones. There was no Pashto involved in the row AFAIK, since the word for University he 'ought to have used' wasn't _pohaantoon_.


----------



## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> .... Fayla biraadar, do they teach those terms at school? AFAIK even people who've studied Urdu-mediaum tend to go the easy way and use English equivalents.



3azeezam BP,

As I studied in English medium schools all along, I cannot say from first hand experience that these terms are on the lips of students attending Urdu medium schools. But you may well be right that even these guys just take the easy option of going for English terminology- if they can handle it. 

However, I do know there has been a government sponsered drive to formulate Urdu equivalents of modern scientific terms. Apart from this, I met Parvez Hoodbhoy, Professor & Head of Dept. of Physics, Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad, who more than anyone I know has been keen on this. In the production of  documentaries for students and the general public, in both the physical and biological sciences, he made sure that only Urdu scientific terminology was used!! He himself is completely bilingual, speaking English-Urdu fluently, but pushed lexicographers in Pakistan to go for these neologisms. Having seen one of the documentaries, I believe he has succeeded very much in this enterprise.


Arsham,

For Urdu technical terminology too there is an official body responsible for these neologism (sorry don't have the web address). The idea was to translate English language textbooks into Urdu, much like what has been going on in Iran with translations of these books into Farsi, but in Pakstan English has become very popular. However, there are many who still can't handle English that well.

... and going back to terminology, in Urdu we do use the Persian word sanj سنج (from sanjeedan), but in non-technical words like: بذلہ سنج and زمزمہ سنج !


----------



## arsham

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Quiet obviously I wasn't referring to your scientific اختراع پردازی, only the ندرت of your vocabulary!
> 
> janaab-e-waalaa, the incident you alluded to was over the journalist using the 'Iranian' Farsi words instead of Dari ones. There was no Pashto involved in the row AFAIK, since the word for University he 'ought to have used' wasn't _pohaantoon_.


 
Actually it was exactly that pashto word he ought to have used according to bbc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/afghanistan/story/2008/02/080210_v-hn-farsi-language-punishment.shtml

see also here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/afghanistan/story/2008/08/080811_ram-farsi-pashtu.shtml

That said, I did not intend to take this issue beyond linguistic grounds. Based on what I have read, in Afghanistan, pashto terms are used in the army and various public institutions even in the Dari texts. I brought up the subject without trying to favour any side. I have the impression that you took it a bit too seriously!


----------



## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _ajhal-ul-jahileen_



Reviving an old thread here.  BP, what does this mean?


----------

