# the hoe.



## franknagy

Respected Forum Users:
The neighboring people especially if they have the same religion use the same figurative expressions.
Let me continue with the *hoe.*
The old fashioned wish used to be that to the just married couple when divorce was impossible:
_"Ásó, *kapa* és a nagyharang válasszon el titeket" =
"Let be you separated by the shovel, the *hoe *and the big bell." = 
_I.e. Let you be separated by the the instruments of the funeral ceremony expressing_
Let your marriage for your rest of your life. _
I think it has the counterpart in the Polish language, has not it?

If a social climber is speaking or behaving in an uneducated way revealing his birth then we say:
_"Kiáll a *kapa*nyél a szájából" =
"The handle of the *hoe* is sticking out from his mouth."_

What is the correspondent saying in Polish?

Regards
    Frank


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## dreamlike

I don't know about the first saying, but the second one definitely has its equivalent in Polish, it's '*Słoma komuś z butów wystaje/wyłazi*' which translates into English as 'Straw is sticking out from his/her shoes'. 

We use it to describe an ill-mannered and crude person, especially one that wants to come across as civilised and well-bred, but reveals their true nature in some situations.


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> Respected Forum Users:
> The neighboring people especially if they have the same religion use the same figurative expressions.
> Let me continue with the *hoe.*
> The old fashioned wish used to be that to the just married couple when divorce was impossible:
> _"Ásó, *kapa* és a nagyharang válasszon el titeket" =
> "Let be you separated by the shovel, the *hoe *and the big bell." =
> _I.e. Let you be separated by the the instruments of the funeral ceremony expressing_
> Let your marriage for your rest of your life. _
> I think it has the counterpart in the Polish language, has not it?


Never heard anything similar. 



franknagy said:


> If a social climber is speaking or behaving in an uneducated way revealing his birth then we say:
> _"Kiáll a *kapa*nyél a szájából" =
> "The handle of the *hoe* is sticking out from his mouth."_
> 
> What is the correspondent saying in Polish?


Here we have one: "Słoma mu wychodzi z butów", meaning "Straw is sticking out of his boots" (poor peasants used once straw to isolate their feet from cold in winter, not being able to afford woollen socks).


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## BezierCurve

I can think of one saying with _a hoe_: "porwać się z _motyką_ na słońce" ("to go to the sun with a hoe"), meaning "to undertake a big project being completely unprepared / having no resources".


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## dreamlike

I don't see how 'porywać się z motyką na słońcę' corresponds to the first adage mentioned by Frank, but then again I don't quite understand the explanation behind it.


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## BezierCurve

Just continuing the search for common sayings, this time with the _hoe_ ones.


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## dreamlike

Oh, I didn't think of it this way. Thank you.


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## franknagy

*Many thanks to everybody for the "Słoma mu wychodzi z butów", meaning "Straw is sticking out of his boots".
*

More examples:
1. _"Ha Isten akarja, a kapanyél is elsül."_ = _"If God wants even the handle of the shaft goes off fire."
_There is not impossible for the Almighty.


(I have found a tale where the gypsy holding a hoe told it to the priest when he took off the rabbit shot by the later.
Nowadays sport reporters write it after an unexpected result.)

2. _Kaszára-kapára! = "Grip you scythes and hoes!"_
Go on working! End of pause!

Write me if I am boring.

Regards
         Frank


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## marco_2

Once _franknagy_ mentioned a hoe as "an instrument of the funeral ceremony", you can quote here an old Polish folk song: a gnat fell out of an oak tree and he knows he is dying, so he says: _Oj nie trzeba doktora, tylko księdza przeora, ani żadnej apteki, tylko rydla i motyki (I don't need a doctor but a priest, and any drugstore /medicine/ won't help me, I need a spade and a hoe)._


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## Ben Jamin

I understood that Frank was asking about adages related to livelong unity, not necessarily to the hoe, but it seems that I was wrong.


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## franknagy

Thank you Marco and Ben,
I think Marco has sent me an interesting answer, and Ben has right, too.
The hoe and shovel are symbols of funeral so the folk song is a good contrubition.
The adages related to livelong unity necessary contain symbols of end oflife. 
My inquiry of such adages is still open.

Regards
    Frank


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## dreamlike

Plus, the hoe is a symbol of happiness here in Poland, as I suppose is the case in any other country, but that you probably know.


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## franknagy

dreamlike said:


> Plus, the hoe is a symbol of happiness here in Poland, as I suppose is the case in any other country, but that you probably know.



No, I have not known. Why is it the symbol of happiness? I have a guess: An unemployed peasant who has not a m² of own land is happy if he is able to work with his hoe.


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> No, I have not known. Why is it the symbol of happiness? I have a guess: An unemployed peasant who has not a m² of own land is happy if he is able to work with his hoe.


I think there is a misunderstanding. The *horseshoe *is a symbol of *luck *(not happiness)in Poland. I never heard that about the *hoe*.
Anyway, it is impossible to give any such rational explanation for it, as you are trying to give about the hoe. If there is an explanation, it is certainly a quite surprising one, and based on a superstition. 
By the way, do you know why traditional Chinese roofs are curved?


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## Lorenc

dreamlike said:


> I don't know about the first saying, but the second one definitely has its equivalent in Polish, it's '*Słoma komuś z butów wystaje/wyłazi*' which translates into English as 'Straw is sticking out from his/her shoes'.
> We use it to describe an ill-mannered and crude person, especially one that wants to come across as civilised and well-bred, but reveals their true nature in some situations.



That's an interesting discussion and I'm happy to have learned a new Polish idiom; anyway I personally I find conceited and in bad taste sayings such as those, describing country folks and peasant as dim and ill-mannered. If anything, if I should point out a group of people (stereotypically) ill-mannered/boorish/etc. I would say low-class urban youths (`chavs').
I have the impression that in Poland there is a negative stereotype that people `from the country', i.e. _ludzie ze wśi_ (which also includes smaller cities rather than `true' countryside), are somewhat uncivilised, have no fashion sense and are in general quite ignorant (this includes, e.g., foreign languages and affairs but also general culture). Am I right in assuming this stereotype exists? I there any truth in it? No doubt there are many country people who _are_ ill-mannered or ignorant, but do town people fair any better?


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## Ben Jamin

Lorenc said:


> That's an interesting discussion and I'm happy to have learned a new Polish idiom; anyway I personally I find conceited and in bad taste sayings such as those, describing country folks and peasant as dim and ill-mannered. If anything, if I should point out a group of people (stereotypically) ill-mannered/boorish/etc. I would say low-class urban youths (`chavs').
> I have the impression that in Poland there is a negative stereotype that people `from the country', i.e. _ludzie ze wśi_ (which also includes smaller cities rather than `true' countryside), are somewhat uncivilised, have no fashion
> sense and are in general quite ignorant (this includes, e.g., foreign languages and affairs but also general culture). Am I right in assuming this stereotype exists? I there any truth in it? No doubt there are many country people who _are_ ill-mannered or ignorant, but do town people fair any better?



Well, at this forum we tell about language facts, this is a linguistic forum, we don't judge if the (already historical) 
attitudes of our forefathers were correct or not. The old sayings are long lived, and reflect the stereotypes of old times. The adage we quoted here is not often used nowadays, and most young people will even not understand it properly. The practice of putting straw into boots being abandoned long time ago, so I will quote another saying "wyważasz otwarte drzwi" ("you are breaking open doors").


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## dreamlike

Of course, I stand corrected, BJ.


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## franknagy

Gentle participarts of the thread:
The prohibition and censure of negative stereotypes is
1. Sysiphus' task,
2. not the linguists' business who have to describe the living language regardless of their political conviction.

As soon as an editor takes his thick red pencil to erase e. g. the word "gypsy" the racists invent new expressions like "not recently sunbathed".

I think I cannot add more to the topic of the hoe but the horseshoe deserves a new separate thread.

Regards
    Frank


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## dreamlike

Lorenc said:


> That's an interesting discussion and I'm happy to have learned a new Polish idiom; anyway I personally I find conceited and in bad taste sayings such as those, describing country folks and peasant as dim and ill-mannered. If anything, if I should point out a group of people (stereotypically) ill-mannered/boorish/etc. I would say low-class urban youths (`chavs').
> I have the impression that in Poland there is a negative stereotype that people `from the country', i.e. _ludzie ze wśi_ (which also includes smaller cities rather than `true' countryside), are somewhat uncivilised, have no fashion sense and are in general quite ignorant (this includes, e.g., foreign languages and affairs but also general culture). Am I right in assuming this stereotype exists? I there any truth in it? No doubt there are many country people who _are_ ill-mannered or ignorant, but do town people fair any better?


I don't see how your post is off-topic, so I permit myself to answer. Note that in my #2 I wrote: 

_but reveals their *true nature* in some situations.
_
rather than 'birthplace'. I for one don't associate such behaviour with rural people any more than I associate it with urban people. In fact, it is not uncommon for the latter to be more uncivilised than country people, so I agree with your sentiment. To answer your question, the stereotype you describe is alive and well, especially among people with inferiority complex, but is there any country in the world where such a stereotype is not to be found?


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