# How is ь read in Russian?



## klemen

Hello,

I have got a question about reading Russian Cyrillic. How is ь read in Russian?

Thanks in advance.


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## smmichael

Hello,
actually this letter is not read in Russian. It is used to palatalize consonant sounds like in the words *здесь, встретить, понять*...
When transcribing it into English the apostrophe is used: in the above mentioned examples it would sound like *zdes', vstretit', ponyat'*...
Does it make sense?


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## Maroseika

Besides marking the softness of the anterior consonant, ь marks that [iot] in the posterior iotacized vowel is pronouced:

бельё  [bʲɪˈlʲjɵ] - linen
белёк [bʲɪˈlʲɵk] - seal cub
белок  [bʲiˈlok] - protein


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## klemen

Thank you all for answers.



smmichael said:


> Hello,
> actually this letter is not read in Russian. It is used to palatalize consonant sounds like in the words *здесь, встретить, понять*...
> When transcribing it into English the apostrophe is used: in the above mentioned examples it would sound like *zdes', vstretit', ponyat'*...
> Does it make sense?



Which are palatalized consonants?




Brexit said:


> 2. "Odvajanje" - prisustvo glasa [j] između mekog suglasnika (ili takvog koji ne može biti mek) i sljedećeg vokala koji se piše nekim od slovima е, ё, и, ю ili я (u stranim riječima ponekad i о).



Hvala, razumel sem te. Koji suglasniki su meki ili mogu biti meki?
Thanks, I understood you. Which consonants can be soft.


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## smmichael

klemen said:


> Which are palatalized consonants?



palatalized = softened

I am not sure if there are good examples in English.
From WIKI: _'An example of palatalization in English is the colloquial pronunciation of did you? as [dɪdʒuː] rather than [dɪdjuː]'_


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## Maroseika

I don't think this example is relevant for Russian palatalization.
Spanish seems to be a better one, like in _nina _vs _niña_ (n/ñ - distinction is close to н/нь in Russian).
Anyway, palatalization is one of the basic features in Russian, so better to read about it in any primer manual. If anything still is not clear for you, you are welcome to ask concrete question with context.


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## lena55313

klemen said:


> How is ь read in Russian?


If in your language there is not the same sound it's difficult to explain how to pronounce it. You better to call somebody and listen his voice.
I'd describe this sound like a very-very short sound 'i'
_For example, say "lucky" . Then say lucky once more but make the last sound 'i'  very-very short as if 1/10 of the normal sound 'i' in this word. 
[lak']
Russian examples: роли-роль_


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## Sobakus

lena55313 said:


> I'd describe this sound like a very-very short sound 'i'


I think this is very misleading; ь stands for zero sound and only changes the preceding one. There's no additional sounds that it introduces. Only if you start inserting shwas between consonants, as is usual in folk singing for example, does it regain its former sound value as a short i-like shwa.

A good example of palatalisation in Slovene would be the non-Ljubljanian pronunciation of "Ljubljana", the one that's neither /j+u/ nor /l+j+u/ but the sound in-between.


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## Rosett

A "-gn-/-gli-" letter may well represent the Russian "-нь-/-ль-", respectively, as if in bologna/болонья, cognac/коньяк, canàglia/каналья.


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## Sobakus

Rosett said:


> A "-gn-/-gl-" letter may well represent the Russian "-нь-/-ль-", respectively, as if in bologna/болонья, cognac/коньяк, canàglia/каналья.


It does in Italian, but doesn't just about in every other language. Even Russian renders them with a yod and not *болоня, *коняк. Canaglia has a yod in Italian as well.


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## Rosett

Sobakus said:


> It does in Italian, but doesn't just about in every other language. Even Russian renders them with a yod and not *болоня, *коняк. Canaglia has a yod in Italian as well.


Yes, the are spelt with "-ья" in Russian, almost perfectly matching their Italian and French (cognac) cognates.


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## Sobakus

Rosett said:


> Yes, the are spelt with "-ья" in Russian, almost perfectly matching their Italian and French (cognac) cognates.


To elaborate on my previous post: the Russian spelling reflects the presence of the consonant [j] between the n and the vowel characteristic for French (most of its accents). This is not an example of palatalisation, this is an example of yotation, and it's very important for learners to distinguish the two because it's a frequent mistake to approximate palatalisation with yotation.

In (most accents of) Italian there's no [j] there, and that's a true example of palatalisation: the Russian rendering of those Italian words is, again, кон(н)як and болон(н)я.

Both of my statements can be checked on forvo.com.


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## Rosett

Sobakus said:


> To elaborate on my previous post: the Russian spelling reflects the presence of the consonant [j] between the n and the vowel characteristic for French (most of its accents). This is not an example of palatalisation, this is an example of yotation, and it's very important for learners to distinguish the two because it's a frequent mistake to approximate palatalisation with yotation.


Sorry, but there is absolutely no yod in French co*gn*ac, nor monta*gn*e, etc.

Altogether, there is at least 6 languages featureing the same issue:

Spelling of palatal consonants
*l mouillé* *n mouillé*
Italian gl(i) gn
French (i)ll (i)gn
Occitan lh nh
Catalan ll ny
Spanish ll ñ
Portuguese lh nh
Palatalization (sound change) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Sobakus

Rosett said:


> Sorry, but there is absolutely no yod in French co*gn*ac, nor monta*gn*e, etc.
> 
> Altogether, there is at least 6 languages featureing the same issue:
> 
> Spelling of palatal consonants
> *l mouillé* *n mouillé*
> Italian gl(i) gn
> French (i)ll (i)gn
> Occitan lh nh
> Catalan ll ny
> Spanish ll ñ
> Portuguese lh nh
> Palatalization (sound change) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Firstly, you obviously haven't read the article you're linking as it has nothing to do with palatalisation in Russian. It covers the sound change (кена -> цена, кесть -> честь), not the secondary articulation – that one is covered by the article that's linked at the very top of this page: Palatalization (phonetics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly, any Russian that takes the time to listen to some forvo.com recordings will tell you that French _cognac_ is pronounced more similar to _коньяк_ than _коняк_, it's absolutely unreasonable to argue otherwise. Same goes for Spanish, maybe apart from /ñe/. Pronouncing _синяк_ the French way is a very widespread feature of foreign accent in Russian. The French _*l mouillé *_is pronounced [j]. In Italian, it technically is the same process, but it's almost universally pronounced without inserting any j-glides and so sounds very similar to the Russian _нь/ль_, just overly soft.

I don't think anything more can be added to the discussion, frankly. Telling a learner of Russian that the Russian phonemic palatalisation is the same thing as Romance yotated palatalisation, or, worse still, the English _did you _/dijoo/, is doing a very big disservice to them.


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## Drink

I would have to disagree about Italian. I listened to Italian forvo recordings of cognac and lasagna and they clearly insert a [j]. In canàglia, they don't insert a [j], but it is much more palatalized than a Russian ль and is more like a geminated [λ].


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## Sobakus

Drink said:


> I would have to disagree about Italian. I listened to Italian forvo recordings of cognac and lasagna and they clearly insert a [j]. In canàglia, they don't insert a [j], but it is much more palatalized than a Russian ль and is more like a geminated [λ].


I just hear a double [λλ]/[ɲɲ] in most recordings, just like in Ukrainian -ння. In _canàglia_, I clearly hear the orthographic /i/, but the Italian [λ] is so palatal that it's difficult to distinguish the two: the difference is the presence or absence of tip of the tongue contact. But the male recording audibly goes to a great length to emphasise the [j].


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## Ben Jamin

Maroseika said:


> бельё  [bʲɪˈlʲjɵ] - linen
> белёк [bʲɪˈlʲɵk] - seal cub


This is a really hard nut for foreigners that will tend to pronounce both words with the "льё" and "лё" identical, either as the first or the second alternative, especially when told by the teacher that ль = l+j.


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## Sobakus

Ben Jamin said:


> This is a really hard nut for foreigners that will tend to pronounce both words with the "льё" and "лё" identical, either as the first or the second alternative, especially when told by the teacher that ль = l+j.


You can just insert an [ɪ] after the consonant – *-ьj-* and *-иj-* are more or less in free variation in Russian, especially with the ending *-ье*. Some words (such as воскресенье) actually have both spellings, usually with different shades of meanings (action vs. event, standard vs. folksy). But substituting *-j-* for palatalisation really grates on the ear and breaks the rhythm and syllable structure. Most Polish accents are ambiguously between those two so usually it's not a big deal for Poles.


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## Rosett

Based on my own observations with different nations, I can say that non-native Russian speakers, including those who had lived in Russia proper for many years, can be most clearly distinguished by the way they palatalize "-ля|-ря" and "-ня|-мя". You can always hear that famous "ь" sound right in the middle, as if in "-лья|-рья" and "-нья|-мья," respectively - something that the natives would never have. On the other hand, Odessa Jewish Russian accent is a sort of the opposite, for example, "семя́" instead of "семья".


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## Drink

I am told that my great-grandfather used to say мьясо for мясо. He was born near Гомель and his first language was Yiddish.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> I am told that my great-grandfather used to say мьясо for мясо. He was born near Гомель and his first language was Yiddish.


Actually, here's "ъ", not "ь", and the entire word would be мъясо (м"ясо, as it is spelt in Ukrainian,) with a quite intense "м". Such spelling is standard and can also be found in few other words in Ukrainian.
Accordingly, you can find "ь" abbreviated to ' in the Russian translit based on Latin alphabet in various computer systems, starting back to 1960s, and in some printed matter dated around 1920s.


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## Ben Jamin

Sobakus said:


> You can just insert an [ɪ] after the consonant – *-ьj-* and *-иj-* are more or less in free variation in Russian, especially with the ending *-ье*. Some words (such as воскресенье) actually have both spellings, usually with different shades of meanings (action vs. event, standard vs. folksy). But substituting *-j-* for palatalisation really grates on the ear and breaks the rhythm and syllable structure. Most Polish accents are ambiguously between those two so usually it's not a big deal for Poles.


I personally used to pronounce the palatalized version of an apical l (l') + j (that is both "лё" and "льё" as "льё"), until now when I have read this thread.


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