# Etymology: Berlin - swamp?



## Jana337

Hello! 

The origin of the name Berlin is supposed to be Slavic. "Berl" (sometimes spelled "br'l") should mean something like "swamp", "swamp meadow" and even "fishing village" according to one resource (google Berlin Slavic swamp to get a plethora of links). 

I cannot find any Czech word for swamp that would come close.

Suggestions? 

Jana


----------



## Prstprsi

In Slovak, we've got word "barina" (=bažina po česky)....  A podľa mňa, to môže byť pôvod tohto slova.


----------



## Jana337

Prstprsi said:
			
		

> In Slovak, we've got word "barina" (=bažina po česky)....  A podľa mňa, no comma here to môže byť pôvod tohto slova.


Well, I am not an expert in etymology but I find the change from BRN to BRL a bit unlikely.

Jana


----------



## cyanista

Hmm, Russian has got the word "берлога" (berl*o*ga) - a den, a lair (most typically a bear's den). I know, it has nothing to do with swamps - but, on the other hand, it certainly refers to a dwelling.


----------



## skye

Slovenian also has the word "brlog", which means a den.

But there's no similar word for a swamp. "Močvirje"? Not very similar. On the other hand we also have the word "barje" - it's a swampy terrain where the remains of plants change into turf.


----------



## Tchesko

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I cannot find any Czech word for swamp that would come close.


 
Neither me.
But the Slavs seem to have had a rich vocabulary regarding "swamps". I've just found out the etymology of Brandenburg, coming from Slavic "brenna" (= swamp). 

Roman


----------



## skye

> In Slovak, we've got word "barina" (=bažina po česky)....


 


> I've just found out the etymology of Brandenburg, coming from Slavic "brenna" (= swamp).


 
This last word seems much closer to the previously mentioned barina. 

The change from ber- to bar- or br- wouldn't be that unusual, would it? So I think that ber-, br- or bar- could be the beginnings of words which would mean swamp in (ancient) Slavic languages. And the sounds which follow after the beginning seem to have evolved in different ways. 

I'm no expert either, I just think there's a pattern here.


----------



## Thomas1

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> The origin of the name Berlin is supposed to be Slavic. "Berl" (sometimes spelled "br'l") should mean something like "swamp", "swamp meadow" and even "fishing village" according to one resource (google Berlin Slavic swamp to get a plethora of links).
> 
> I cannot find any Czech word for swamp that would come close.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> Jana


Hi Jana,

The first word that occured to me after reading your post was _berlinka. _It has two meanings in Polish:
- barge
- kind of sausage (similar to those served in hot-dogs).

I dunno how much they have in common with a swamp  but tracking down the etymology of it I found out that the word comes from the name of the city so probable this fact rules it out.

Secondly, after reading the above posts to your enquiery I thought of barłóg which means den/ lair or a shakedown (meaning#4) but I wouldn't have associated it with Berlin if not for the above posts.


----------



## martini_

I knew theory, city name is get from word: "Berło" - eng.- Sceptre, so it coudl mean - royal city... but I'm not sure.


----------



## AOL

In Russian "berloga" means : the dwelling of a bear. So I can see a relationship with the Berlin emblem which is a bear.


----------



## übermönch

Wiki says it's old Polabian, "berl" or "birl" meaning swamp, but then the bear coat of arms actually makes no sence. Maybe it was adopted by later Germanic inhabitants because the first three letters resemble the Germanic word for a bear?


----------



## Seana

I have found it in various Polish sourses. According to them the ethymology name Berlin is Indo-European language - reconstructed old Slav 

_*bьrlъ *means puddle, swamp, mud_
Many researchers think that our ancestors were inhabitants of swamp they even joke about them as "anthropoids from bogs", so the "boggy" lexis was reputedly in language of Slavs exceptionally developed. 

_*burlas*__- dirt, mud in _Lithuanian
_*burlungis* - boggy in _Lithuanian
_*brljaga* - puddle in_ Serbian and Croatian
[*]*brljati* _to dirty, to stain in _Serbian and Croatian
[*]_*бъ'рлок* puddle_ in Bulgarian
I have found also the other surmises .

_*Berl *_diminutive from _Bratosław -_Berlin as a name coming from the master formerly there ruling.

_*Bär *- bear *- *Berlin - German_.
_*berło *_word in Polish language very similar sounds means _sceptre. _
_*berlin *_perhaps literally meant in old Slav some sort of ski, but what it could be related with Berlin?
source


----------



## USAMATRIX

Hey ! Why don`t you people look at ir Berlin flag ! It is BEAR. *Dwelling bear* always  build behind what? Right tree called birch.


----------



## berndf

USAMATRIX said:


> Hey ! Why don`t you people look at ir Berlin flag ! It is BEAR. *Dwelling bear* always build behind what? Right tree called birch.


 
As Übermönch pointed out before, the bear in the flag and in the coat of arms is probably due to a misinterpretation by later German speaking inhabitants of the area.
It is a commonly accepted assumption that the bear in the flag and in the coat of arms has nothing to do with the etymology of the name of the city.


----------



## Ander

There is another etymology that says the name Berlin may come from the Sorbian Slav word berlen/barlen for wooden nettings that were put in the Spree River to capture fish.


----------



## dudasd

Brückner relates _*bьrlъ *_with *bara *(puddle, swamp), via supposed root *bьr*. Also, amongst many Serbian toponyms derived from *bara*, I found one more interesting: Barlovo.


----------



## werrr

Jana337 said:


> Well, I am not an expert in etymology but I find the change from BRN to BRL a bit unlikely.


It could be variation of passive and active participles.


----------



## Il Reine

In serbocroatian there is the word "brlog/брлог", same meaning as in slovenian and russian, and for me it's a convincing etymology, since I'm from BERLIN ! ; )


----------



## Il Reine

berndf said:


> As Übermönch pointed out before, the bear in the flag and in the coat of arms is probably due to a misinterpretation by later German speaking inhabitants of the area.
> It is a commonly accepted assumption that the bear in the flag and in the coat of arms has nothing to do with the etymology of the name of the city.


Völlig richtig.


----------



## LilianaB

Bellan is a swamp in Old Prussian, also baltan, but Old Prussian is a Baltic language. It looks like these words could be cognates. It is b_ł_oto or b_ł_ota in Polish. Bolota in Russian. Bala in Lithuanian. According to the Polish Wikipedia, Berlin comes from Braline, which according to this article comes from Bral, a short form of a Slavic name Bratoslaw. There are also Baltic words similar to braline, brolis, bralis - brother (brolis in Lithuanian). It could come from something totally different.

Added: Bratoslaw means in fact brotherly fame, so the name Berlin can be related to brother in Indo-European Languages.


----------



## ancalimon

cyanista said:


> Hmm, Russian has got the word "берлога" (berl*o*ga) - a den, a lair (most typically a bear's den). I know, it has nothing to do with swamps - but, on the other hand, it certainly refers to a dwelling.



In Turkish "barınak" is the same thing. Comes from the verb "barın" meaning "to shelter, to get along together, to live in, to survive in, to harbour"

Today the word usually means a shelter for homeless people or animals. (not in an offensive way like "inn of a bear" though)


----------



## Il Reine

ancalimon said:


> In Turkish "barınak" is the same thing. Comes from the verb "barın" meaning "to shelter, to get along together, to live in, to survive in, to harbour"
> 
> Today the word usually means a shelter for homeless people or animals. (not in an offensive way like "inn of a bear" though)


Sorry, we're used to report the verbs in the infinitive form and I'm sure that the russian word and the turkish one are not related, simply because it is an old slavic word, and at the time the proto-turkish tribes had no contacs with the Slavs.


----------



## ancalimon

Il Reine said:


> Sorry, we're used to report the verbs in the infinitive form and I'm sure that the russian word and the turkish one are not related, simply because it is an old slavic word, and at the time the proto-turkish tribes had no contacs with the Slavs.



Have a look at many links here:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/TurkicAndSlavicEn.htm

and here:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/tur...Turkisms/ShipovaCover_TurkismsInRussianEn.htm


----------



## Il Reine

I'm aware of the existence of such positions, but how can I read, as a rational human being, read an essay beginning with those words:
"Türkizm (or Türkism) is a word borrowed from Türkic languages."
????
They have a total false concept of language borrowing !
A turkish substrate for the slavic languages is such a ridiculous thesis, man.


----------



## ivo89

Jana337 said:


> Hello!
> 
> The origin of the name Berlin is supposed to be Slavic. "Berl" (sometimes spelled "br'l") should mean something like "swamp", "swamp meadow" and even "fishing village" according to one resource (google Berlin Slavic swamp to get a plethora of links).
> 
> I cannot find any Czech word for swamp that would come close.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> Jana




Hi,
in Bulgarian a South-Eastern slavic language the word for swamp is "blato", which is сомевхат similiar to the old Slavoni root word "Berl".


----------



## skeye

Greetings and Salutations 

This is my first post yet have often been one to seek reference from here.

I have a proposal into the intended meaning behind "Berlin". It seems all of the words so far used and their origins have all been intertwined into this very word "Berlin". In my humble opinion through much research into the words Lyn/Lin and its variants, and Ber/BR/Bore,Bear,Bare,Born,Birth and its many variants, it seems that the letter sets of BR and LN have joined to mean something along the lines of "Out of the swamps we created the mighty Bear as our symbol!" or something of this nature. Lyn has everything to do with water. Which would subscribe to the usage of swamp. Ber on the other hand could have multiple meanings as words often come into conception with multi-dimensional meanings and as a result often are presented as compound words such as the word "perimeter". The story in a word is where I look for the meanings here - in this word, Berlin. I have in my own name, each of these words and when placed together as they are here, could mean that there is a : birth, of bear, from the water that is collecting full of life (swamp), and this is our home (den?). 

It would explain both the bear, it being the capitol, and the people of the swamp areas? (perhaps?) and the watery aspect of the word itself in modern definitions. Berlin = ber+lin+brl+brn all birthing together to get the word Berlin ?

When I Think about it. I can not help but ask, "Who are the makers of words? Who are the makers of letters?" The letters themselves are concepts of a larger picture. I find using this to understand the movement of words from one peoples to the next, sometimes in union, sometimes not, are still a way to get a point across and the peoples meanings. The people who have the power to put a bear on a flag and say with much pride and joy that, "This is our flag and it has a bear on it!"

In keeping the words' flow,
skeye


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

I'd like to point out that there are many city names in Eastern Germany ending in -in (which usually bears the stress), so it's definitely not BR + LN, but BRL + in.
<...>


----------



## sotos

In addition to the root Ber-, Ver- etc related to swamp, there are medieval and modern Greek toponyms βηρός, βυρός, βιρός (all pronounced viros) which according to one theory mean exactly "swampy area", or according to others a land with shrubs. There is also the med. and modern Gr. word _vourkos_ (swamp). The suffix -lin could be a grecoroman style productive suffix/diminutive. (e.g. signo > signalo, carta > cartollina etc).


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

The suffix isn't Grecoroman and in no way diminutive, but rather Slavic, and it's not -lin, but -in. The morfological division should be ber - l - in or berl - in, not ber - lin, like the pronunciation suggests. There are many toponyms ending in -in in Eastern Germany and also in Poland: Schwerin, Lehnin, Stettin/Szczecin, Koszalin etc.


----------



## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> The suffix isn't Grecoroman and in no way diminutive, but rather Slavic, and it's not -lin, but -in. The morfological division should be ber - l - in or berl - in, not ber - lin, like the pronunciation suggests. There are many toponyms ending in -in in Eastern Germany and also in Poland: Schwerin, Lehnin, Stettin/Szczecin, Koszalin etc.


----------



## rushalaim

Slovenian _"berloga"_ and German _"Berlin"_ have the same root *BRL*. Why _"swamp"_ speech here?
And Russian _"berloga"_-word, the place of bear, however the bear's name is not from BRL-root but _"медведь"_. Russians didn't say the name of bear aloud at all.


----------



## rushalaim

May German _"Ber*lin*"_ be related with similar _"Kö*ln*"_(Cologne), _"Tal*lin*n"_(Reval), _"Lub*lin*"_(Polish town) and so on? Perhaps, it somehow connected with Baltic-Germans' Hansa (Hanseatic League - Wikipedia).


----------



## berndf

No, _Köln_ is not of Slavic but of Latin origin (< _Colo*n*ia_).


----------



## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Why _"swamp"_ speech here?


Because that seems to be what the name meant in Polabic, the dominant language of the area 800 years ago when Berlin was founded. Something like _the settlement in the swamp_.


----------



## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Because that seems to be what the name meant in Polabic, the dominant language of the area 800 years ago when Berlin was founded. Something like _the settlement in the swamp_.


So why do Berlin's flag and coat of arms have a bear not swamp? (Berlin - Wikipedia)


----------



## berndf

Folk etymology by later, German speaking inhabitants who created the coat of arms. Has been mentioned many many times before in this thread. First in #11:


übermönch said:


> Maybe it was adopted by later Germanic inhabitants because the first three letters resemble the Germanic word for a bear?


----------



## Stoggler

rushalaim said:


> So why do Berlin's flag and coat of arms have a bear not swamp? (Berlin - Wikipedia)



Swamps are famous for their romantic and picturesque use on flags and on arms...!


----------



## rushalaim

Stoggler said:


> Swamps are famous for their romantic and picturesque use on flags and on arms...!


Is swamp unique place for Berlin why it was named? I think, there are many swamps on the globe and citizens don't call their towns "swamp" )) Did only Germans hate their town to call it "swamp"?


----------



## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Is swamp unique place for Berlin why it was named? I think, there are many swamps on the globe and citizens don't call their towns "swamp" )) Did only Germans hate their town to call it "swamp"?


1) The name is *not *German it is Slavic. The name existed before the Germans conquered the area about 800 years ago.
2) "Swamp" is a simple geographic description (a settlement on a dry spot in a wetland area) and has nothing to do "hating" anything.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Dresden is called Drážďany in Czech and from what I gather the Saxon capital's name's Slavic origins are also quite swampy.


----------



## Awwal12

rushalaim said:


> Is swamp unique place for Berlin why it was named? I think, there are many swamps on the globe and citizens don't call their towns "swamp" )) Did only Germans hate their town to call it "swamp"?


Cf. the Russian city of Вя́зьма (which is indeed located on the territory which is still pretty swampy), from "вя́знуть" (to get stuck in sth), "вя́зкий" (viscous; sticky).


----------



## apmoy70

Cf. the Byzantine city of Βουρλά [vurˈla] (neut. nom. pl.) the mediaeval name of the ancient Ionian city-state of Klazomenai. Βουρλά means _marshlands, swamps_ and it's either cognate with the Slavic name or a Slavic loanword.
Bούρλα [ˈvur.la] or Βουρλά [vurˈla] is a fairly common Byz.Gr/MoGr name of towns/villages located near marshlands or swamps.


----------



## ahvalj

apmoy70 said:


> Cf. the Byzantine city of Βουρλά [vurˈla] (neut. nom. pl.) the mediaeval name of the ancient Ionian city-state of Klazomenai. Βουρλά means _marshlands, swamps_ and it's either cognate with the Slavic name or a Slavic loanword.
> Bούρλα [ˈvur.la] or Βουρλά [vurˈla] is a fairly common Byz.Gr/MoGr name of towns/villages located near marshlands or swamps.


Interestingly, the simple word is not attested in Slavic, which only has the above _bьrloga~bьrlogъ_ and other derivates. A matching cognate is found in Lithuanian:
_Fraenkel E · 1962 · “Litauisches etymologisches Wörterbuch”: _66:




So, either Slavic has lost it since the invasion of Balkans, or the Greek word is from Macedonian, Thracian or another such source (for _b_ see Βερενίκα).


----------

