# Differences Between Malaysian and Indonesian (viz. Learning)



## archibaldworthington

It's my understanding that the two languages are mutually intelligible they're just two different standardizations. I've heard some people say that the differences only amount to a British English vs. American English difference, but others say that's no good. I noticed however that they do have different Wikipedia sites for them. That's not to say that that makes them all that different, but if the BE vs. AE comparison is true then that would be unnecessary.

I ask mainly because I'm curious as to which of the two I should concern myself with learning if I want to learn Malay (i.e., Indonesian/Malaysian; not sure if that's the correct name for those two), I'd like to know which one to familiarize myself with (if they're at all different in anyway meaningful). Assuming that I can find adequate resources for learning either that is; given Indonesia's size, there'll probably be more resources for learning the Indonesian variety of the language.


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## entangledbank

I have no idea why even Wiktionary (which successfully insists that Serbo-Croatian is one language) keeps separate entries for Malay and Indonesian. There is no significant difference between them: it's one language, not two mutually comprehensible languages. There are slight regional dialect differences, no doubt, as for any language, and the existence of two countries means two slightly different standards have arisen. The generic _anda_ "you" is used more in Malaysia; Arabic words are used more there; there is odd variation in word form like _lebeh ~ lebih_ "more"; but these are very minor points. It's certainly no more than BrE/AmE, and since the spelling reform decades ago aligned Indonesian spelling with Malaysian, you should just pick whichever book suits you and not worry that you should be footnoting "but in Indonesia it's . . ."


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## Stoggler

entangledbank said:


> I have no idea why even Wiktionary (which successfully insists that Serbo-Croatian is one language) keeps separate entries for Malay and Indonesian.



On the other hand, Danish and Norwegian (Bokmål) are separate Wikis and they are very similar languages on the page, so why shouldn't Malay and Indonesian have separate Wikis?


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## Hulalessar

The following Wikipedia article goes into the differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Malaysian_and_Indonesian


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## sandracollin

archibaldworthington said:


> It's my understanding that the two languages are mutually intelligible they're just two different standardizations. I've heard some people say that the differences only amount to a British English vs. American English difference, but others say that's no good. I noticed however that they do have different Wikipedia sites for them. That's not to say that that makes them all that different, but if the BE vs. AE comparison is true then that would be unnecessary.
> 
> I ask mainly because I'm curious as to which of the two I should concern myself with learning if I want to learn Malay (i.e., Indonesian/Malaysian; not sure if that's the correct name for those two), I'd like to know which one to familiarize myself with (if they're at all different in anyway meaningful). Assuming that I can find adequate resources for learning either that is; given Indonesia's size, there'll probably be more resources for learning the Indonesian variety of the language.



That's a very good point! I don't actually mind the difference between the two or if they are somewhat similar in some cases. Why not look into Wikipedia? I think you will find useful things there about your observation and doubt.


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## itreius

entangledbank said:


> I have no idea why even Wiktionary (which successfully insists that Serbo-Croatian is one language) keeps separate entries for Malay and Indonesian.




Wiktionary used to treat BCS as separate entities, so there were separate Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian entries. There was also a vote a couple of months ago to join Malay and Indonesia, but there weren't enough votes to make a decision (nor are there enough active contributors who add words in Malay/Indonesian) so they left them as separate.

The reason as to why BCS was joined a couple of years ago was that the top Croatian contributor had a fight with some people on the Croatian Wikipedia. Then in an act of revenge, he decided to exert his power as an administrator of the English Wiktionary to piss off the folks over at the Croatian Wikipedia (administrators there tend to be right-leaning). He initiated the process of joining them. The votes for joining BCS actually failed, but he still managed to have it his way and have them joined into Serbo-Croatian.

From a practical point of view, it makes sense for them to be joined as there would be a lot of redundancy. On the other hand, Norwegian Nynorsk and Norwegian Bokmal aren't joined. Middle Dutch isn't joined with Dutch, and there's other example where Wiktionary is far from being pragmatic.


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## entangledbank

A splendidly sordid story. Well doesn't that just reflect the way languages are defined in the real world? 

Danish and two kinds of Norwegian may be very similar but they have clearly distinct standard forms. Croatian and Serbian of course have different scripts even if they're not hiding any real difference. So it's quite natural to set up two forms for those. What is politically unusual about Malay is that the two countries aren't trying their damnedest to promote differences so that they can proudly say 'This is _our_ language, not theirs'. (Apart from that Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia name thing.) The Indonesians aren't stuffing their vocabulary with Javanese or Sundanese to make it seem different.


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## Stoggler

entangledbank said:


> A splendidly sordid story. Well doesn't that just reflect the way languages are defined in the real world?
> 
> Danish and two kinds of Norwegian may be very similar but they have clearly distinct standard forms. Croatian and Serbian of course have different scripts even if they're not hiding any real difference. So it's quite natural to set up two forms for those. What is politically unusual about Malay is that the two countries aren't trying their damnedest to promote differences so that they can proudly say 'This is _our_ language, not theirs'. (Apart from that Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia name thing.) The Indonesians aren't stuffing their vocabulary with Javanese or Sundanese to make it seem different.



Fair enough - I must admit, I know next to nothing about Malay and/or Indonesian 

I wonder if that will change in the future though (I mean that the Malaysians and the Indonesians choosing to promote differences, not my knowledge of the two languages may change!) - if Indonesia becomes more powerful and a regional politic power, will Indonesians want to exert their identity/nationality through their language?


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## asanga

While the official standards of Malaysian and Indonesian don't differ too much, colloquial Indonesian _does _stuff its vocabulary with words from other Indonesian languages, especially Betawi (Jakarta Malay dialect) and Javanese.

A foreign student should be able to understand newspapers, tv news broadcasts, official speeches, etc. from both countries without too much difficulty, but the more informal speech found in popular movies/tv shows and actual conversations on the street may be incomprehensible.

But again, these differences are not much greater than between British and American English:  a foreign student may understand both CNN and BBC news anchors, but not _Trainspotting _or the latest popular rap song.


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## killerbee256

asanga said:


> ... the latest popular rap song.


As an American sometimes _I_ have trouble understanding Ebonics/aave if it's to "thick."


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## archibaldworthington

entangledbank said:


> It's certainly no more than BrE/AmE, and since the spelling reform decades ago aligned Indonesian spelling with Malaysian, you should just pick whichever book suits you and not worry that you should be footnoting "but in Indonesia it's . . ."


Alright then. Thank you.


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## itreius

entangledbank said:


> Danish and two kinds of Norwegian may be very similar but they have clearly distinct standard forms. Croatian and Serbian of course have different scripts even if they're not hiding any real difference.



Danish and Norwegian exhibit most of their difference in phonology. Their standard written forms aren't uncomparable to the differences in the standard forms of Croatian or Serbian, however (even if we only consider Serbian as written in Latin). The latter two (Croatian/Serbian) don't have one-to-one correspondence with the script as the only difference either and they do have distinct standard forms. _Videćemo_ (_We'll see_) is for example quite clearly part of only the Serbian standard, whereas _vidjet ćemo_ (the same meaning) is only part of Croatian standard. _Hlor_ or _ugljenik_ is the standard Serbian form for _Chlorine_ and _Carbon_ while the Croatian forms are _klor_ and _ugljik_. Naturally, those examples are completely mutually intelligible. Since that distinction exists, Wiktionary's policy of having them under the umbrella term of _Serbo-Croatian_ means that Serbo-Croatian itself doesn't have a consistent standard form and isn't unlike mixing in Norwegian Bokmal and Danish. _Arbeid_ and _arbejde_ could be mixed while retaining complete mutual intelligibility, but one clearly belongs only to one standard form, the other only to the other standard form.

I have no idea if that's the case with Malay and Indonesian so I apologize for going off topic. The Wikipedia page unfortunately doesn't say whether there are any orthographic differences between Malay and Indonesian, it mostly just focuses on lexical differences.


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## anzhyo

If you want to know more about the differences between Malay and Indonesian, I've written a "wikified" (so to speak) LinkedIn opinion piece about the history of Malay, how it served as the _lingua franca_ of Maritime Southeast Asia prior to European colonization. See here: December 2015 Implementation of the ASEAN Economic Community (AEC) Integration Policy   (cf. European Union)


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## wildan1

I think the difference between Malay as used in Malaysia and Indonesian is that the languages have different roles in their respective home countries.

Malay is used "officially" in Malaysia by the government and the majority of the indigenous population (Bumiputra), but side-by-side with English, Chinese and a little bit Tamil, based on the strong blend of ethnicities in that country.

Bahasa Indonesia is the unifying language of Indonesia, although the majority of its population speak it as a second language to the many native languages spoken across the vast archipelago of that country. Nevertheless, it unifies the country and is the primary written and official language of a nation that, unlike Malaysia, quickly dispatched the colonial European language (Dutch) that administratively prevailed in that country before 1945.

Bahasa Indonesia, nevertheless, has thousands of Dutch loan words in everyday conversation that no Malaysian would understand.


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## Rani_Author

archibaldworthington said:


> It's my understanding that the two languages are mutually intelligible they're just two different standardizations. I've heard some people say that the differences only amount to a British English vs. American English difference, but others say that's no good. I noticed however that they do have different Wikipedia sites for them. That's not to say that that makes them all that different, but if the BE vs. AE comparison is true then that would be unnecessary.
> 
> I ask mainly because I'm curious as to which of the two I should concern myself with learning if I want to learn Malay (i.e., Indonesian/Malaysian; not sure if that's the correct name for those two), I'd like to know which one to familiarize myself with (if they're at all different in anyway meaningful). Assuming that I can find adequate resources for learning either that is; given Indonesia's size, there'll probably be more resources for learning the Indonesian variety of the language.



I know, it's old thread. But, if only it isn't useful anymore for you, perhaps it would answer another persons' similar question.

Depends on what is your point to learn one of "two different languages". (Not because I'm an arrogant Indonesian. But, Indonesian and Malayan are completely two different languages!!!).

If you want to communicate well with much more persons in some of Southeastern Asian countries, I suggest you to learn Malayan. Malayan or Malaysia's official language is similar with Brunei's and one of Singapore's official language. Basically, they are one language, like British English and American English. It's not important whether you choose to speak like Malayans, Bruneians, or Singaporeans. The comparison is if we compare Malaysia's official language is British English. Then, Singapore's official language is Australian English. They are almost the same, just different in accent. And Brunei's official language is American English. It's Ok to choose one of them to learn. Although, I myself would recommend Malaysia's version to choose. It's just like I choose European Spanish first to learn before knowing the differences with Latin American Spanish (moreover, in each country. Example: Mexican Spanish is closer to European Spanish than the other Latin American ones).

If you want to communicate with much more persons (although just in one country), Indonesian is the answer.

Although, my best suggestion is to learn both of them in the same time, except you aren't interested in that other language too much. If you learn one first, then continuing with another one, you would experience the confusion of language.

I never agree to compare Indonesian-Malayan is just like British English-American English. British English and American English are one language. It's same if you choose to speak European Spanish than Latin American Spanish, to choose European Portuguese than Brazilian Portuguese or East Timorese Portuguese. Certainly, the fanatic native speakers would respect you so much if you practice the proper version in each proper country. But. it's still Ok.

Imagine, if you speak Malayan to Indonesians and on the contrary. Would we respect it? It's same with you speak to us with your mother tongue. Even, the majority of us would love to hear you speak English as an international language than that other language without important importance.

I prefer to compare Indonesian-Malayan is like Turkish-Azeri if you have ever learned about them. Turkish and Azeri have a lot of false friends, just like Indonesian and Malayan. I give you one example: "bercinta" in Indonesia is "to make love", in Malayan is "to express a love". "Öykü" in Turkish is "all of works besides novel", in Azeri is "short story". Certainly if you talk Indonesian, Malayans would understand you and on the contrary. If you speak Turkish, Azerbaijanis would understand you and on the contrary. But, still, they are different languages. Moreover, in their literatures. Learning one of the literatures doesn't mean you could understand the other one.

In my opinion, standart Indonesian-Malayan is 80 % similar. 60 % similar in colloquial language. 40 % in poems and poetries. 20 % in novels and short stories. It's impossible to sell Indonesian books well to Malaysia without any translation and on the contrary.

If Indonesians or Malayans want to make books, movies, etc, for both countries, they would use the standart ones.

Unfortunately, educated Indonesians keep speaking standart Indonesian in the daily life while educated Malayans keep speaking colloquial Malayan.

The best way to decide whether the both languages are same or not, with learning both of them. If no, it's just like we are walking in the dark in the cave. You don't know whether the right way and the left one would unify in one point of way or not. Except, you pass them by bringing a candle.


P.S.: Just ignore about Betawian, Javanese, Sundanese, etc, if you choose to learn Indonesian! Except, you are interested in learning them specifically. It would break your standart Indonesian. The fundamental mistakes of foreigners when they learned Indonesian is they learned it with mixing it with Betawian, Javanese, Sundanese (there are hundreds local languages in Indonesia). Even, I've never spoken any local language since I was born. (My parents wanted to keep the purity of their children's standart Indonesian)


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## Ben Jamin

Rani_Author said:


> In my opinion, standart Indonesian-Malayan is 80 % similar. 60 % similar in colloquial language. 40 % in poems and poetries. 20 % in novels and short stories. It's impossible to sell Indonesian books well to Malaysia without any translation and on the contrary.



I have heard that translating British books into American English, and vice versa has become to be a business.


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