# Japanese Second Person Pronouns



## Setwale_Charm

Thanks. What is the usage of "anata" then?

Moderation Note
This thread has been branched from here.  The topic of the current thread is the use of Japanese pronouns.


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## cheshire

It's really difficult to explain in other than our mother tongue!

(1) In formal speech
(2) from a woman to her husband
(3) In narration (related to (1))
(4) To show his/her respect to the one being addressed


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## Setwale_Charm

cheshire said:


> It's really difficult to explain in other than our mother tongue!
> 
> (1) In formal speech
> (2) from a woman to her husband
> (3) In narration (related to (1))
> (4) To show his/her respect to the one being addressed


 

  Interesting. I used to think "anata" is less formal than ...-san. And does it apply to a husband addressing his wife? And is it an adopted term for addressing the husband or is it only when the woman wants to emphasize her respect?


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## cheshire

husband to wife 98%
wife to husband  2%

But I think this usage (only 2) is gradually getting out of use.
Another usage is when one is trying to show his anger who otherwise would choose "kimi" "omae" or a person's name. It's similar to English when a mother scolds her children in a polite language.


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## tak215

Jibun, kimi, anata sounds natural to me.
Anta is more informal.
Omae is very informal.
Temee(テメェー) is a slag word and very informal.

Anata can be used to ones who you love and this is the main usage (usually woman to a man).
Anata can be used to attract people (when a woman says to a man or when its on the article or a title of a magazine,websites or newspapers).


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## Flaminius

cheshire said:


> husband to wife 98%
> wife to husband  2%


I am not sure but it sounds like you are alluding that out of 100 utterances of "anata", 98 are from husband to wife and 2 are from wife to husband.  If my sociolinguistic background serves anything here, I find husbands are often trying to avoid addressing their significant others; either by one of the second person pronominal words or by their names or nicknames.



> Another usage is when one is trying to show his anger who otherwise would choose "kimi" "omae" or a person's name.


Calling someone, for example one's colleague, _anata_ is already condescending and therefore laden with anger or reproach.  I am wondering why _anata_ does not imply negative attitude when used from wife to husband.


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## tak215

cheshire said:


> husband to wife 98%
> wife to husband 2%
> 
> But I think this usage (only 2) is gradually getting out of use.
> Another usage is when one is trying to show his anger who otherwise would choose "kimi" "omae" or a person's name. It's similar to English when a mother scolds her children in a polite language.


 
I don't think that's true
because I've never heard of a husband saying "anata" to his wife.
"anata" is commonly used when a woman speaks.

What I would say is
wife to husband 100%
husband to wife 0%


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## maybe4ever

I asked a Japanese friend of mine this same question, about the usage of anata. She told me, it wasn't used very often and it's only used when the person your talking about means alot to you. She told me some Japanese are starting to use, "atana" to mean "only you" now also.


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## Anatoli

Can we say, if a husband wants to be nice to his wife, he would call her きみ"kimi" more often or just by first name? Is "kimi" the most common "you" when husband talks to wife (or boyfriend to girlfriend)?

I know in families they often call each other otoosan and okaasan, even when kids are not around.

--
"tem*ee*" sounds dialectal (Kansai?) I know "tem*ae*".


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## Flaminius

Assuming "ee" stands for an ē or long E, "temee" is part of the Japanese spoken in and around Tokyo.  The form "temae" is rare but when used it means self-depreciating I.


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## Anatoli

Thanks, Flaminius,

EDICT dictionary:



> 手前【てまえ】 (n) before; this side; we; you; (P).


It always suprised me how Japanese pronouns could mean both "I" and "you", e.g.:



> 僕【ぼく】 (n) (1) (male) I; (2) you (used addressing young children); (3) manservant; (P).


 
Could you comment on "kimi", please?


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## Flaminius

Anatoli said:


> Can we say, if a husband wants to be nice to his wife, he would call her きみ"kimi" more often or just by first name? Is "kimi" the most common "you" when husband talks to wife (or boyfriend to girlfriend)?


I know several couples that address each other by _kimi_.  Obviously a sign of affection but, looked from outside, it sounds reproving somehow.  This impression, I must confess, is stronger when the wife calls the husband _kimi_ than vice versa.  Whether my observation betrays more of my male-centric view or of lack of bidirectional pronouns in Japanese remains to be seen.


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## Anatoli

Flaminius said:


> I know several couples that address each other by _kimi_.  Obviously a sign of affection but, looked from outside, it sounds reproving somehow.  This impression, I must confess, is stronger when the wife calls the husband _kimi_ than vice versa.  Whether my observation betrays more of my male-centric view or of lack of bidirectional pronouns in Japanese remains to be seen.



My question was sincere, I honestly don't know what's common. Textbooks not always explain emotional meanings attached to some Japanese pronouns.

Does it mean there is no common pronoun "you" for wives? How do married guys address their wives in Japan? What is the most common (real) scenario in a good average family? First name, きみ, お前，　あなた，　そなた or nothing at all? If "kimi"  sounds reproving from outside,  which form is OK?


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## Aoyama

> I've never heard of a husband saying "anata" to his wife.
> "anata" is commonly used when a woman speaks


I agree with that. One could also say that the use of _anata_ is rather _feminine_ (though not always). It would be used by gay (male) people ...
Other food for thought :
*Otaku* (polite but rather neutral form of anata)
*Kisama* (derogative/insulting form, originally NOT so in the old language)


> Could you comment on "kimi", please?


I think that *kimi* comes from *kun* (?)

PS.: Is *temee* really coming from *temae* ?


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## Anatoli

Aoyama said:


> I think that *kimi* comes from *kun* (?)
> 
> PS.: Is *temee* really coming from *temae* ?



Kimi can be written with the same character, I don't know how related they are: 君

I think temee is the dialectal (colloquial?) form of temae but I won't bet my head on it  I also think it has changed its meaning or style, temee is more vulgar.


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## cheshire

Flaminius said:


> Calling someone, for example one's colleague, _anata_ is already condescending and therefore laden with anger or reproach. I am wondering why _anata_ does not imply negative attitude when used from wife to husband.


奥さんに決まった表現でもって話しかけるのは無標で、普段「丁寧語」では話しかけない相手に対して、急に改まった表現でもって話しかけるのが有標で、それが異化を引き起こすからじゃないかしら。
It's "unmarked" to address one's wife with a fixed expression. It's "marked" to address to a person with a formal expression to whom you usually address with not particularly polite words. That brings about a certain effect, in this case showing one's anger.


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## uchi.m

One might address their children or wife with _kimi_, _omae, boku-chan_ (whether the adressee is a young son/boy), _<shortened daughter's/son's name>-chan_, _<son's name>-kun_ or, more frequently, by their first names. It is also usual to simply drop the pronoun, leaving the adressee inferred by the context:

Mother: _Tadaima_.
Father/Son: _Okaeri_.
Father: _Sassato benkyou shina._ [This cannot be an order addressed to the wife, since she's supposedly not an elementary anymore]
Son: _Hai_ (frowning)


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## bambilolo

Apart from using the third person (-chan), how do japanese guys address their female friends - would they use あなた, きみ or おまえ more frequently? Would they address their girlfriends differently?


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## hashamyim

Hey guys,

I'm trying to get my head around the use of honorifics, and their varying levels of politeness in Japan. Can anyone tell me whether the below descriptions are accurate?

あなた (anata – most usual and polite form), 
御主 (onushi – very polite, literally means ‘master’), 
あんた (anta – a slightly more informal version of anata), 
おたく(otaku – used to address someone with a subtle sense of distance), 
自分 (jibun – shows an emotional neutrality), 
己 (onore – used to show disdain), 
きさま (kisama – shows bad feeling), 
おまえ (omae – used by older people, less polite than anata and sometimes rude), 
てめえ (temee – both rude and aggressive), 
きみ (kimi – used solely by men to aggressively intimidate younger women and children!)

The plural forms of all of the above can then be formed by putting a ‘-ra’ as a suffix on those pronouns ending in -e or -u (e.g. otakura, onorera), and ‘-tachi’ on the end of those pronouns ending in -i or -a (e.g. kisamatachi, kimitachi).

Thanks in advance!


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## akimura

I'm impressed by the comprehensive list of Japanese 2nd person pronouns.  I have a little different view on 御主 and きみ, though.

御主 is completely outdated.  It's primarily found in _samurai_ warrior TV drama, novels, etc., fictional or non-fictional, depicting the Japan in probably 1500-1800s.  Today, it's used only humorously when we act like a _samurai_.  It's supposed to be a complete joke all the time.  Unless we are sure about the effects of our jokes, we won't use 御主 to anybody.

I would agree that 君 is more likely used by men, but it is used by some women.  I don't think it's always meant to intimidate the others.  It's often used by managers toward their team members at the office, school teachers toward their students, older people to younger people, etc.  Sometimes it's used between a husband and wife.  君 doesn't sound polite, and sometimes it sounds intimidating, but sometimes it doesn't.

Regarding the plural forms, the general idea is that たち sounds generic, and ら sounds domineering.  They can't be added automatically.  Careful choice is required.  My judgment on each (other natives might disagree on some):

あなたたち OK
あなたら ×
御主たち OK
御主ら　OK
あんたたち OK
あんたら OK 
 おたくたち OK
おたくら OK
自分たち OK
自分ら OK
己たち (2nd person??, probably OK as 1st person)
己ら (2nd person??, probably OK as 1st person)
きさまたち ?? (maybe OK but less likely than きさまら)
きさまら OK
おまえたち OK
おまえら OK
てめえたち (maybe OK but less likely than てめえら)
 てめえら OK
きみたち OK
きみら OK


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## hashamyim

Hey Akimura, thanks ever so much for this information! That's really helpful, and I'll make sure to bear this in mind


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