# that X didn't come from



## Deb Worton

Je vourdrais dire:
We find it very interesting that the motivation for the development of the OIN didn't come from France but from former colonies like Senegal and Cambodia
 
Mon essai:
On le trouve très intéressant que la motivation pour le développement de l’OIN n’est pas arrivée de la France mais des anciennes colonies comme le Sénégal et le Cambodge.  
 
Voulez-vous me corriger?
Deb


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## velt

"On" shouldn't be used in formal speech or in writing. "Nous" is perfect.

about the verb : "venir" is fine. With "arriver" it sounds as if the motivation boarded a plane and crossed the ocean.

since there is a "que" before the verb, you must use the "subjonctif". 
Hence : "que la motivation....ne soit pas venue."


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## Deb Worton

Thank you so much for your help, Velt.
Deb


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## pheelineerie

velt said:


> since there is a "que" before the verb, you must use the "subjonctif".


 
This is a bit misleading. What do you do with "nous espérons que..." and "il est vrai que..." along with loads of others? It just depends.


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## velt

Sure, but depends on what ? I can't explain it, that's why I didn't go into details. It is true I shouldn't have said it, though.


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## Moon Palace

:


Deb Worton said:


> We find it very interesting that the motivation for the development of the OIN didn't come from France but from former colonies like Senegal and Cambodia
> 
> Mon essai:
> On le trouve très intéressant Il est très intéressant de constater  que la motivation pour le développement de l’OIN n’est pas arrivée n'émane pas de la France mais des anciennes colonies comme le Sénégal et le Cambodge.
> 
> Deb



Hope it helps


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## valvende

Deb, 
best option I thinkd


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## dnldnl

It is curious that "je trouve que," doesn't require a subjunctive, at least not in its affirmative form.

But "je trouve _intéressant/bizzare/normale _que," all require it.


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## velt

True, it's really weird.
"je trouve que le ciel est superbe ce soir"
"je trouve surprenant que vous me fassiez cette réfléxion...
if there is an adjective between the verb and "que", then use subjonctive, I guess


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## Moon Palace

I have been thinking about this subjunctive problem, and here is what I think: 
'je trouve que le ciel est superbe' does not in any way cast doubt on the reality of the fact that is in fact asserted as well as appraised. 
'je trouve intéressant que nous ayons cette discussion' seems to be more doubtful about the existence of the fact itself, as if to show surprise as well as doubt. Maybe also to convey the idea that before being taken into account and appraised, it was totally unexpected. 
Don't know though if this makes sense to any other native, sheer inspiration for the moment being


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## pheelineerie

velt said:


> if there is an adjective between the verb and "que", then use subjonctive, I guess


 
Good god, I think you might be right!! And that's huge!! Can we get some confirmation?


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## Moon Palace

Well, in fact, it is a bit more complicated than that. Here is a link for French as a Foreign Language that should help
http://www.connectigramme.com/subjonctif.html/odyframe.htm


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## velt

||Good god, I think you might be right!! And that's huge!! Can we get some confirmation?
Alright, i was just saying


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## Moon Palace

Well, Velt, can we have the end of your post?


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## dnldnl

According to the explanation I just found in my grammar book the subjunctive is used whenever an evaluation of an action takes place or attitude towards the action is expressed. That would include: approver que, trouver bon (mauvais, juste, utile, nécessaire) que, juger à propos que, mériter que, valoir que, etc.

  I guess when we have "je trouve que" it neither expresses doubt (in fact it is very similar in meaning to "je pense que" and "je crois que") nor attitude towards things, so no subjunctive is necessary.


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## polaire

Moon Palace said:


> I have been thinking about this subjunctive problem, and here is what I think:
> 'je trouve que le ciel est superbe' does not in any way cast doubt on the reality of the fact that is in fact asserted as well as appraised.
> 'je trouve intéressant que nous ayons cette discussion' seems to be more doubtful about the existence of the fact itself, as if to show surprise as well as doubt. Maybe also to convey the idea that before being taken into account and appraised, it was totally unexpected.
> Don't know though if this makes sense to any other native, sheer inspiration for the moment being



I had a similar thought.


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## polaire

dnldnl said:


> According to the explanation I just found in my grammar book the subjunctive is used whenever an evaluation of an action takes place or attitude towards the action is expressed. That would include: approver que, trouver bon (mauvais, juste, utile, nécessaire) que, juger à propos que, mériter que, valoir que, etc.
> 
> I guess when we have "je trouve que" it neither expresses doubt (in fact it is very similar in meaning to "je pense que" and "je crois que") nor attitude towards things, so no subjunctive is necessary.



To me, it's similar to:

Il _me_ semble que: indicative.

Il semble que: subjunctive.


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## Moon Palace

It cannot be made that simple, because if you put 'je crois que' in the negative form then you suddenly need the subjunctive. It has more to do with the relationship with the reality than with the structure or the verb itself. 
Je crois qu'il va faire beau. 
Je ne crois pas qu'il soit inintéressant de chercher plus loin. 

Je trouve qu'il est adorable. 
Je ne trouve pas qu'il soit correct de le dire.


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