# Vai de mine!



## Aoyama

My poor knowledge of Romanian is mostly aural.
I often heard my grand-parents say :
vai de mine (vaï dé miné), meaning something like "my God !".
- What it is the proper spelling ?
- What is the meaning ?

  Merci.


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## OldAvatar

Aoyama said:


> My poor knowledge of Romanian is mostly aural.
> I often heard my grand-parents say :
> vai de mine (vaï dé miné), meaning something like "my God !".
> - What it is the proper spelling ?
> - What is the meaning ?
> 
> Merci.



The proper spelling is: *Vai de mine! *
*Vai *is an interjection describing a lot of feelings: starting from pain, suffering, deception and ending with regret, compassion and even admiration etc. *Vai* could be related with Italian _Vai _(meaning _go, _as an imperative; however, the meaning is different, but many centuries ago, it could mean the same thing) since it is considered to have the same root, from Latin _vae_.
The expression *Vai de mine!* is nowadays mainly used only to depict an unpleasant situation in which someone may be. In my oppinion, it is a quite common expression among the older people, it is not that often used by young generation. *de mine *means _of me._

A similar expression in English would be _My, oh my!

_Best regards!


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## Aoyama

Right. Thank you.
I new the proper spelling (guessed it) and wrote the _phonetic_ equivalent.
What I wanted to know was the literal (word to word) meaning.
_de mine_ = of me, I know.
_vai_ = vadere in latin (?) to go  (but Romanian uses _duc_)
It could mean : *"go of me"* or like the French *"pauvre de moi"* ...


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## OldAvatar

Aoyama said:


> Right. Thank you.
> I new the proper spelling (guessed it) and wrote the _phonetic_ equivalent.
> What I wanted to know was the literal (word to word) meaning.
> _de mine_ = of me, I know.
> _vai_ = vadere in latin (?) to go  (but Romanian uses _duc_)
> It could mean : *"go of me"* or like the French *"pauvre de moi"* ...



As I said, *Vai *is an interjection. So, it hasn't got an exact meaning in modern Romanian, it is just an exclamation word which can define a series of feelings. It depends on the context. It could be, etymologically speaking, related with Latin _vae _and, therefore, with Italian_ vai, _but it certainly hasn't got the same meaning anymore. Probably, sometime in the past, it meant something like *go of me* but we can't say that for sure...

Anyway, *Vai de mine!* (sometimes also used as *Vai de mine şi de mine!* as a much intensive complaining expression) is, nowadays, considered to be rather an excessive complaining expression and therefore, some avoid to use it or use it only in dramatic situations.

Best regards!


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## Aoyama

Thank you again.
I understand *vai* as being an interjection, like *vai vai* used ... in Yiddish (and maybe in other languages).
For *Vai de mine şi de mine *(poor me, poor me again/too) as an emphatic form, I had heard too.
But you are saying that this expression is rather old fashioned.


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## OldAvatar

Aoyama said:


> But you are saying that this expression is rather old fashioned.



Well, for me it is old fashioned. And I don't use it. Perhaps, *vai *alone is much used than *vai de mine.* *Vai de mine* has a high level of complaining which can be annoying. But that's my point of view and my personal remark, I can't tell for sure if that will be indeed a general impression.

Best regards!


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## Outsider

In Latin there was a similar interjection, *vae*.


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## Aoyama

I don't think that *vae* and *vai* could be related, even if vai could be linked to vadere in Latin (but that should be confirmed but experts).
_Vae victis_ etc
If, as OldAvatar is stating, *vai *is used to_ complain_ ,how could it be compared to *vae *which was used as a salute or a hailing ...?


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## Outsider

I think you have confused *vae* (not related to *vadere*, as far as I know) with *ave*. *Ave* means "hail", but *vae* means "woe" or "oh". 
_Vai de mine_ seems to be a direct equivalent to the (old fashioned) English expression "woe is me".


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## Aoyama

Nope, I did not. *Ave* and *vae* are two different words, even if they look like the anagram of each other. I didn't even think about *ave*.
For the etymology of *vae* (but this a bit of topic here) you can check google. There is an article in The University of Oklahama Bulletin about this (pertinent or nor), linking *vae* with *via*, way, went etc.
*Vae victis* means woe to the victor, as we know.
Does *vai de mine* mean _woe of me_ ... ?


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## Outsider

Aoyama said:


> For the etymology of *vae* (but this a bit of topic here) you can check google. There is an article in The University of Oklahama Bulletin about this (pertinent or nor), linking *vae* with *via*, way, went etc.


So it's not related to _vadere_? Just as I thought.



Aoyama said:


> *Vae victis* means woe to the victor, as we know.


No, "woe to the _vanquished_".


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## sakurano

Actually "Vae victis" means "Too bad for the losers"/"Woe to the vanquished", therefore, "vai" it is similar to the latin "vae". "Ave" is the saluting one.


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## OldAvatar

Outsider said:


> So it's not related to _vadere_? Just as I thought.
> 
> No, "woe to the _vanquished_".




I don't think that Romanian *vai *has any connections with Latin _vadere_. There is another word in Romanian which may be linked with _vadere _and that's *vad*, meaning *ford*.

Best regards!


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## Spanish linguist

Curious expression, so much like in Spanish: ¡Ay de mí! I love Romanian!


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## Spectre scolaire

I don’t think Rumanian *vai* comes from Latin. To me it sounds like the Turkish _interjection_ *vay* _expressing surprise or regret_. In oldish [Modern] Greek it is pretty common.

You should look up the word in Lazăr Şăineanu: _Influenţa orientală asupră limbei şi culturei române._ I-II-III, Bucuresci 1900.
 ​


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## OldAvatar

Spectre scolaire said:


> I don’t think Rumanian *vai* comes from Latin. To me it sounds like the Turkish _interjection_ *vay* _expressing surprise or regret_. In oldish [Modern] Greek it is pretty common.
> 
> You should look up the word in Lazăr Şăineanu: _Influenţa orientală asupră limbei şi culturei române._ I-II-III, Bucuresci 1900.
> ​



The book you presented as reference is pretty old. Romanian language studies were in early stages at that time...
For example, some of the so-called Turkish words from Romanian language are actually borrowed from the language of the Cumans, centuries before contacts with Turkish world...
I'm curious on what would be the Turkish *vay* etymology?


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## robbie_SWE

OldAvatar said:


> The book you presented as reference is pretty old. Romanian language studies were in early stages at that time...
> For example, some of the so-called Turkish words from Romanian language are actually borrowed from the language of the Cumans, centuries before contacts with Turkish world...
> I'm curious on what would be the Turkish *vay* etymology?


 
It could actually be the other way around. Maybe Romanian is the true source of the Turkish word?! Unfortunately the Romanian influence on neighbouring languages is horribly underestimated according to many linguists. 

I still consider *vai* to be a Latin cognate. 

 robbie


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## OldAvatar

robbie_SWE said:


> It could actually be the other way around. Maybe Romanian is the true source of the Turkish word?!



I don't think so... But it could be an ancient interjection used in a similar form in many languages.


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## Spectre scolaire

OldAvatar said:
			
		

> For example, some of the so-called Turkish words from *in* Romanian language are actually borrowed from the language of the Cumans, centuries before *any* contacts with *the* Turkish world...


 And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turki*c* tribe? 

I think Şăineanu was well aware of the Cuman connection, but he may not have possessed the linguistic tools to distinguish between Turkish (the Ottoman strand, the prevalent one) and Turkic (the Cuman strand). Some work on this has been done in Hungary where the problem is the same as in Rumanian - only that in Hungary turcological studies are flourishing. 

In Rumania it has been much more important to assess the Latin origin of Rumanian and to study, say, French loanwords, than to continue Şăineanu’s work. I see the present debate in this light. “Consulting Aristotle” may be interesting enough, but diving into the linguistic reality of Rumanian would be epistemologically more rewarding. Şăineanu is forgotten and his huge _Influenţa orientală ..._ is a _liber rarissimus_. I have got a copy of it – but my library is not next to me for the time being.




			
				robbie_SWE said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the Romanian influence on neighbouring languages is horribly underestimated according to many linguists.


 Could we have a couple of names here?

Caveat: I am not saying that Rumanian _vai_ unequivocally is a Turkish/Turkic loanword in Rumanian. I am now primarily reacting against peremptory statements like “I still consider *vai* to be a Latin cognate.”

By the way, Turkish _vay_ is considered to be of Persian origin.
 ​


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## OldAvatar

Spectre scolaire said:


> And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turki*c* tribe?
> 
> I think Şăineanu was well aware of the Cuman connection, but he may not have possessed the linguistic tools to distinguish between Turkish (the Ottoman strand, the prevalent one) and Turkic (the Cuman strand). Some work on this has been done in Hungary where the problem is the same as in Rumanian - only that in Hungary turcological studies are flourishing.
> 
> In Rumania it has been much more important to assess the Latin origin of Rumanian and to study, say, French loanwords, than to continue Şăineanu’s work. I see the present debate in this light. “Consulting Aristotle” may be interesting enough, but diving into the linguistic reality of Rumanian would be epistemologically more rewarding. Şăineanu is forgotten and his huge _Influenţa orientală ..._ is a _liber rarissimus_. I have got a copy of it – but my library is not next to me for the time being.
> 
> Could we have a couple of names here?
> 
> Caveat: I am not saying that Rumanian _vai_ unequivocally is a Turkish/Turkic loanword in Rumanian. I am now primarily reacting against peremptory statements like “I still consider *vai* to be a Latin cognate.”
> 
> By the way, Turkish _vay_ is considered to be of Persian origin.
> ​



The Persian origin of *vay* brings the idea of an ancient common  indo-european interjection closer to the truth... Doesn't it?
Anyway, I'm impressed by your knowledge...

Best regards


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## Luchia

Hi

I'm probably out of my depth here, but I always thought "vai" comes from "a se vãita" / "vaiet" which in turn could come from "wail". According to my dictionary, "wail" is probably of Scandinavian origin. 
 
Then again, I make strange connections between languages so I'd recall things easily...I have no real etymological proof for this x_x 
 
By the way, nice conversation


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## robbie_SWE

Spectre scolaire said:


> And wouldn’t you say that the Cumans belonged to a nomadic Turki*c* tribe?
> 
> I think Şăineanu was well aware of the Cuman connection, but he may not have possessed the linguistic tools to distinguish between Turkish (the Ottoman strand, the prevalent one) and Turkic (the Cuman strand). Some work on this has been done in Hungary where the problem is the same as in Rumanian - only that in Hungary turcological studies are flourishing.
> 
> In Rumania it has been much more important to assess the Latin origin of Rumanian and to study, say, French loanwords, than to continue Şăineanu’s work. I see the present debate in this light. “Consulting Aristotle” may be interesting enough, but diving into the linguistic reality of Rumanian would be epistemologically more rewarding. Şăineanu is forgotten and his huge _Influenţa orientală ..._ is a _liber rarissimus_. I have got a copy of it – but my library is not next to me for the time being.
> 
> Could we have a couple of names here?
> 
> Caveat: I am not saying that Rumanian _vai_ unequivocally is a Turkish/Turkic loanword in Rumanian. I am now primarily reacting against peremptory statements like “I still consider *vai* to be a Latin cognate.”
> 
> By the way, Turkish _vay_ is considered to be of Persian origin.
> 
> ​


 
Is it still peremptory when many linguists (including a myriad of dictionaries) attest the Romanian word "*vai*" to be a Latin cognate? I admit that it is a difficult subject to study and discuss, because languages are like living creatures. They breathe, reproduce and adapt themselves to new circumstances. They never acquire a solid form. 

My comment about the Romanian influence on neighbouring languages is mostly referring to the Slavic languages in the Balkans. Sorin Paliga did extensive research on the subject and though Turkish wasn’t a part of his research, it still awoke my curiosity. I apologise for my misleading sentence, it was mostly an unqualified guess.  But the question is interesting don't you think? 

Best regards, 

 robbie


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## Vaga Lume

I know it was written 13 years ago, but I got here and probably other people will, so I'd like to add information

In Portuguese we have the expression "ai de mim", which is way too similar to be a coincidence. 

"Ai" is used to express pain. Brazilians in pain will scream ai, or ai ai. Other than that, it can be used to express that a kid is doing something wrong, to express dismay... 

So I guess the origin of the word Vai is Latin, the ancient Romans probably had a very similar expression to "vai de mine"


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## Jack Manatawa

@Aoyama The Latin form to say "_to go"_ is *ire* and not vadere.  At least in the infinitive.


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## irinet

Hello,

I would like to add a link that might be of interest.

http://www.alternativaonline.ca/Insemnari1408.html


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## Jack Manatawa

If you added an English translation, it would have been acceptable.


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## farscape

The article linked by *irinet* presents a valid explanation of how the the Romanian interjection _Vai_ is derived from the Latin *vado/vadere*  (go)  - see here for more on the Latin part.

I think "Vade mecum" is a rather common expression (from Latin) for come/walk with me therefore its usage as an expression  today for guide/follow me/instruction manual.

Moderator's note: Let's try to keep the discussion about the Romanian connection and not turn this into a discussion suitable for the Latin forum. 

Thanks.


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## bearded

OldAvatar said:


> It could be, etymologically speaking, related with Latin _vae _and, therefore, with Italian_ vai_


Dear moderator, please allow just the following objection:
Italian_ vai_ has nothing to do with Latin_ vae._


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