# Long time no see.



## alahay

Topic question: Long time no see. Is it used? Isn't it wrong?
Added by Cagey, moderator 

Do you natives use that expression? Isn't that supposed to be wrong? thanks!


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## la grive solitaire

Yes to both of your questions.  Despite not being grammaticaly correct, the expression "Long time, no see!" is used all the time in English as a greeting to someone you haven't seen for a while.


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## Jana337

"Long time no see" was borrowed from Pidgin English. 

Jana


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## ElaineG

> "Long time no see" was borrowed from Pidgin English.


 
That's fascinating; I never knew it was a literal translation of Chinese characters.  Thanks for that link, *Jana*.  That explains its ungrammatic quality, but yes, as *la grive *noted, "long time no see" is used constantly in informal speech and will not raise any eyebrows (same for "no can do", another example from the Wiki article).


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## Moogey

Very interesting. I think we get most of our expressions that aren't grammaticaly correct from people learning English, although I could be wrong.

-M


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## alahay

Moogey said:
			
		

> Very interesting. I think we get most of our expressions that aren't grammaticaly correct from people learning English, although I could be wrong.
> 
> -M


What's more interesting is that you know they're wrong and you still use them!


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## Moogey

alahay said:
			
		

> What's more interesting is that you know it's wrong and you still use it!


 
 Well usually, we here these incorrect expressions as kids, start to use them, then grow up and realize they're actually incorrect, but we keep using them because we're used to them and because everybody understands them!

-M


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## elroy

Moogey said:
			
		

> Very interesting. I think we get most of our expressions that aren't grammaticaly correct from people learning English, although I could be wrong.
> 
> -M


 
I think you are.  Speakers of pidgin English are not learners; they speak a different _variety_ of English.

Furthermore, what about "it's me"?  Technically speaking, that's incorrect grammatically, but hardly anyone would say "it's I" - and I don't suspect we got that from a learner.


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## petitsfilous

Wow, thanks a lot Jana!

I learn something new about my own language on here everyday!


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## schmooze

Yeah, Alahay, a lot of people use it where I come from - unfortunately ! 
I think it goes with the ubiquitous attitude :I-want-to-get-my-message-across-in-as-few-words-as-possible. 
Well, at least the words are whole ..and not acronyms. UGH !!
schmooze


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## alahay

I can imagine the scenario of the emergence of this phrase:

Anglophone: It has been quite some time since we haven't seen each other!
Exophone: WHAT? 
Anglophone: LONG TIME, NO SEE! 
Exophone: Ahhh, long time no see too 

N.B. with exophone i mean a non-native-english speaker!


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## Savoir

People in HK here are very interested in this phrase; they think it comes from China, Chinese, and people who directly translated the Chinese equivalent into English. What do native English speakers think? I know this is a common phrase in UK and American English, but people here are asking about its origin. Some people even think it's incorrect, not knowing it's common in spoken native English.

I'd like to see the largest no. of opinions possible. Thanks very much.


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## Kenneth Garland

I thought it was from direct translation of a native American locution.   But the idea is still the same - English speakers heard a direct translation from another language and thought it slightly quaint and attractive, also a useful short phrase for use in speech.

It's no uncommon, but perhaps getting a little old-fashioned nowadays.   There may be a feeling that it's slightly racist, in that it pokes fun at the way non-English speakers speak.


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## kertek

According to Wikipedia, it does indeed come from Chinese.

This is a common expression, and I had never considered that it might be poking fun at foreigners' English. All the expressions on this page, including "long time no see" strike me as slightly cheesy and overly-idiomatic, but that's a personal opinion. I wonder now if that nuance is connected to their colonial usage...

Here are two more interesting articles on the subject.


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## Savoir

Thank you very much, ArtemisTwo, Kenneth Garland, kertek.

No doubt, "Long Time No See" is a direct translation of 很久不見， both mandarin and cantonese. People are asking this question since they're not aware of its common use in English, but surprised at its close resemblance to Chinese grammar, and those who are aware of its commonness don't ever suspect it comes from pidgin English.

While it may be a common expression of native English speakers, Chinese would stop using it since it comes from pidgin English, which is a natural response out of cultural differences.

Kertek, the 5-minute linguist is a great site, many of the topics I glanced over are interesting, since they've always been on my mind, but the dates seem a little old to me, 2005. I hope it still gets updated with new articles.


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## ernest_

"long time no see"

Do you use this expression?
Do you put on a funny voice when you say it or you use your normal intonation?

Thanks!


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## Sallyb36

I do use it if it's been a really long time since I've seen someone, but I would probably put on a bit of a funny voice!


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## zazap

I use it al the time, but I wouldn't say  I put on a funny voice when I do..


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## ernest_

Thanks, mates!


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## Brioche

ernest_ said:


> "long time no see"
> 
> Do you use this expression?
> Do you put on a funny voice when you say it or you use your normal intonation?
> 
> Thanks!



"Long time no see" is a word for word translation from Chinese, which is why some people put on a Chinese accent or expression when they say it.


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## mongoolis-in-suid afrika

Brioche said:


> a word for word translation from Chinese, which is why some people put on a Chinese accent or expression when they say it.


"Long time no see" is originally Chinglish widespread used around America that is nope standard or specifically English


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## lizzeymac

ernest_ said:


> "long time no see"
> 
> Do you use this expression?
> Do you put on a funny voice when you say it or you use your normal intonation?
> 
> Thanks!



I use this expression, it is fairly common in the Northeast.  I have _never_ heard anyone use a funny voice - by which I assume you mean some sort of imitation of pidgin English? I don't think many Americans think about, or even know, that pidgin English is the source of of this phrase- perhaps in Hawaii. Imitating a pidgin English accent might very well be taken as mocking, at the very least as a bit odd - I certainly would take it that way.


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## ernest_

lizzeymac said:


> I use this expression, it is fairly common in the Northeast.  I have _never_ heard anyone use a funny voice - by which I assume you mean some sort of imitation of pidgin English? I don't think many Americans think about, or even know, that pidgin English of this phrase- perhaps in Hawaii. Imitating a pidgin English accent might very well be taken as mocking, at the very least as a bit odd - I certainly would take it that way.



Hi Lizzey! I didn't mean like pidgin English, but more like sort of singing. As some people do, instead of saying 'hello!' plain and simple, they say HUL-LEH-EU! or something like this  theatrical, likes.


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## mplsray

elroy said:


> I think you are. Speakers of pidgin English are not learners; they speak a different _variety_ of English.


 
I would not count pidgin English, or creole languages based on an English-based pidgin, as being English at all (in other words, they're not varieties of English). It's only when an English-based creole language has become decreolized, which, according to one theory, was what happened with African American Vernacular English, that it could be considered a dialect of English.

So a borrowing from pidgin such as the word _savvy_ (originating in a Portuguese-based pidgin but later used in English-based pidgins) or the expression _long time no see _(originating in an English-based pidgin) is in principle no different from a borrowing taken from German, Japanese, or any other foreign language.


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## Musical Chairs

We use "long time no speak" too. I guess if you put it into a sentence it means "It's been a long time since we've spoken/seen each other." People say it sometimes.


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## comsci

Any native of Mandarin Chinese, without having a good command of English, would and should be able to grasp the idea of "*long time no see*" due to the syntactical structure/patterns hidden in this phrase. Yet I'm struck with the fact that not all natives of English actually know of its origins. I've been told that it's of Chinese origin since day 1 when I first learned English. It's commonly known among Chinese community, at least to my knowledge.


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## lizzeymac

ernest_ said:


> Hi Lizzey! I didn't mean like pidgin English, but more like sort of singing. As some people do, instead of saying 'hello!' plain and simple, they say HUL-LEH-EU! or something like this  theatrical, likes.


Ernest - I am so dumb on Mondays - thanks for explaining.  I understand perfectly now.


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## explat

No, native English speakers DO NOT use this expression. Most would rather be caught dead. It is considered corny. 
As to Native Americans, did they ever? I assumed it originated from some old cowboy and Indians movie dialogue. But the Chinese origin sounds reasonable.
The expression was fadishly popular in the early 1960s, and perhaps in the late 1950s as a Beatnik expression. 
It was already fading into obscurity when Woody Allen ridiculed the expression in his 1973 movie "Sleeper." After that came out, NOBODY used "Long time no see" anymore in the U.S. I have not heard it used in Canada. And I checked with a Brit, and she agreed that "Sleeper" killed it there, too. 
But the expression is still popular with non-native English speakers, especially in Asia, perhaps because the English curriculum is based on what someone learned in the 1960s, or perhaps because of a Chinese origin. 
Either way, do not use this expression in the West, unless you want to sound like an idiot.
Hearing it makes me cringe.


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## Tim~!

explat said:


> No, native English speakers DO NOT use this expression.


So, what part of people already having said that they (native speakers of English) use the expression did you not understand?  I'm not at all concerned that you spoke to a single Brit about the subject; individuals in this thread have already shown her comment to you to be inaccurate.

I've heard it used dozens of times.  I've probably used it dozens of times myself.  I've heard people of all sorts of background greet others and me with it.

*You* may not like it, *you* may consider it corny, but that's no justification whatsoever for contradicting others and answering the question with a blatantly false answer.


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## gasman

Tim is absolutely correct. It is an expression in used frequently in everyday speech, and I have not noticed any signs of it disappearing from use.


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## panjandrum

Let's do a summary then.

*Native users of this expression said:*
- used all the time (US)
- used constantly (US)
- we keep hearing them (US)
- a lot of people use it where I come from (South Australia)
-  It's not uncommon, but perhaps getting a little old-fashioned nowadays (UK)
-  This is a common expression (UK native, Brussels)
- I do use is (UK native, Madrid)
- I use it al the time (Canadian native, Valencia)
- I use this expression, it is fairly common in the Northeast. (US)
-  I've heard it used dozens of times. (UK)
- It is an expression in used frequently in everyday speech (Canada)

*Native non-user of this expression said:*
- No, native English speakers DO NOT use this expression. (Native, location undefined)

That's fair enough - explat is entitled to his view.
Makes me wonder, though, if he's so against this expression, why he searched for it ...


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## Aimee J.

Added to previous thread. 
Cagey, moderator. 

I have read that the expression “long time no see” is a widely used greeting by English speakers but is not grammatically correct.

What is it about the expression that makes it ungrammatical?


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## The Newt

It's not that it's "incorrect"; it's simply an idiomatic expression that doesn't obey the normal rules of English grammar. For one thing, it lacks an apparent grammatical subject.


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## dojibear

It is not a sentence. There is no subject and no main verb. It's just a bunch of words: a phrase.

Grammar rules only apply to full sentences. They don't apply to phrases, titles, slogans, saying, captions, headlines, etc. So this is not "incorrect grammar" -- it is "not covered by grammar".

"Long time no see." is a simplified form of "It has been a long time since I saw you." That is a correct sentence. That sentence is also a common greeting.


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## The Newt

dojibear said:


> It is not a sentence. There is no subject and no main verb. It's just a bunch of words: a phrase.
> 
> Grammar rules only apply to full sentences. They don't apply to phrases, titles, slogans, saying, captions, headlines, etc. So this is not "incorrect grammar" -- it is "not covered by grammar".
> 
> [...]



I see it slightly differently. We say "long time no see," not "long see no time" or "time see no long," so some kind of truncated grammar rules are in fact in operation. But they're not the stricter rules that we normally apply to declarative sentences.


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## Packard

https://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2015/06/18/9-words-with-offensive-origins/

*2. long time no see*
Another phrase imitative of the syntax of pidgin English, _long time no see_ was originally meant as a humorous interpretation of a Native American greeting, used after a prolonged separation. The current earliest citation recorded in the _Oxford English Dictionary_ (_OED_) comes from W.F. Drannan’s book _Thirty-one Years on Plains_ (1901): ‘When we rode up to him [_sc. an American Indian_] he said: ‘Good mornin. Long time no see you’.


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## sitifan

Sallyb36 said:


> I do use it if it's been a really long time *since I've seen *someone, but I would probably put on a bit of a funny voice!


I do use it if it's been a really long time* since I saw* someone, ...


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## Packard

This is probably politically incorrect and perhaps offensive in 2021.  I no longer use the phrase and I suggest simply, "I have not seen you in a while" to replace it. 

My suggestion:  Don't use it.


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## Tegs

Packard said:


> This is probably politically incorrect and perhaps offensive in 2021.


I was completely unaware of this. Is this true of American English generally? And what about Canadian and Australian English? As far as I'm aware, it's not at all problematic in Ireland or the UK.


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## S1m0n

Canadian here: If I was being careful of my speech, I'd likely avoid it, but I'd also draw no adverse inferences about another person who said it, particularly if they were older or less politically aware. It's been a common part of speech for long enough that most people will likely say it innocently, but it is undeniable that the origin is a parody of 'indian' speech.


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## dojibear

I live in the US, and I am completely unaware that "long time no see" is offensive or politically incorrect.



S1m0n said:


> it is undeniable that the origin is a parody of 'indian' speech.


I deny it -- or at least I doubt it.

Etymonline.com says  "long time no see" was first recorded in 1919 as Chinese English, but mentions that it is "supposedly imitative of American Indian speech". Either way, it imitates a person speaking English imperfectly as a second language. I'm sure that some of those uses were by Amerindians, though it is not reasonable to imagine that they would all make the same grammar mistake, since they spoke 300 different languages. 

But the US has always had immigration. In 1900 the US had 237,000 Amerindians, but it had 118,000 Chinese immigrants, and several million other immigrants (millions of whom didn't speak English). Every one of those "not fluent in English" immigrants might have said "long time no see". In fact, it was probably said by many different people.

A quick Google search found me this article:

_A student at Colorado State University was reportedly told that the expression “Long time, no see” was an example of “non-inclusive” language because it’s apparently “derogatory toward” Asians._

‘Long Time, No See’ Is Now Considered ‘Derogatory’ toward Asians | National Review


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## Roxxxannne

I've always heard that it came from Chinese Pidgin English. There's an interesting discussion (from about 8 years ago) about the possible origins of the phrase here. It's also mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Chinese Pidgin English.

cross-posted


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## S1m0n

'No really, we're mocking this _other _ethnic group' is not a strong defense against a charge of racism.


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## kentix

I guess you could look at it that way. But you could also look at it as a very useful phrase invented outside of the field of standard English that proved so useful that speakers of standard English adopted it wholeheartedly because of its perfection for the situations where it's used. It gets the point across very quickly with a minimum of wasted breath. I don't think you can successfully argue one is a more accurate description than the other. Obviously no one who uses it in their day to day life for its intended purpose has the intention of making fun of anyone and in fact they aren't. They are using it to communicate a straightforward meaning efficiently. Just as they aren't making fun of the French when using a phrase like _je ne sais quoi_. I'm sure 95% of people are unaware of its presumed origin, which to me is irrelevant in 2022 (and irrelevant in a larger sense anyway). Since when is adopting a useful phrase into standard English from an outside source racist? Give me a break.

(P.S. I spent time in an African country that speaks a version of English that is non-standard by US and UK standards. It has unique vocabulary, syntax and rhythm. Some people who speak more standard English have a hard time even understanding it. And I still use phrases I picked up there decades later because they are useful, pertinent and perfect for the situation. Granted, I mostly say them to myself because no one else would understand them, but in no way am I making fun of the people I lived with and learned them from by doing so. It's quite the opposite. A good idea is a good idea, and a nice turn of phrase is a nice turn of phrase, no matter where it comes from.)


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## S1m0n

I live on the west coast of Canada in a community that is 30% native American; a combination of Nootka [sic] and Salish [sic]  (and many variants). I interact with natives every day. When I have said something offensive I learn about it instantly.


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## bennymix

alahay said:


> I can imagine the scenario of the emergence of this phrase:
> 
> Anglophone: It has been quite some time since we haven't seen each other!
> Exophone: WHAT?
> Anglophone: LONG TIME, NO SEE!
> Exophone: Ahhh, long time no see too
> 
> N.B. with exophone i mean a non-native-english speaker!



I think you mean, "...since we have seen each other."


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## dojibear

S1m0n said:


> 'No really, we're mocking this _other _ethnic group' is not a strong defense against a charge of racism.


Valid point. Which ethnic group it came from doesn't matter. Races sometimes get mocked. 

I am not sure that "mocking" is how it entered the English language. But maybe it was.

It certainly is not "mocking" today, or racist. People using it don't know it's original use.


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## Roxxxannne

One might argue on the one hand that if it's a Chinese Pidgin English phrase, i.e. from a legitimate language that uses English vocabulary and Chinese grammar, then it's no different from any other borrowed phrase from another language.

But on the other hand, if the phrase is _funny_ to the English speaker because the speaker finds it amusing that [uncomplimentary adjective] Pidgin English speakers are mangling English, then it's insulting.

On the _other_ hand, if a whole mass of English-speaking people uses it with no idea that it ever was anything other than a grammatically strange way of saying in English "I haven't seen you for quite a while," is it racist?


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## Tegs

I don't see it as a funny phrase or one that makes a mockery of any people or race. I just find it a nice way of saying "I haven't seen you in a while". It's so entrenched in the language that I don't even think of it as ungrammatical, just idiomatic. 

I can imagine that if people put on a funny voice when they said it, it would come across as insulting or racist, but I've never heard anyone say it like that either - and this would also be true of any expression or phrase said in a mocking, fake accent. Reading the posts in this thread from over a decade ago, some people confess to putting on a voice, which of course would be pretty bad. But if I came across someone saying it like that, frankly, they would strike me as being pretty odd. 



S1m0n said:


> When I have said something offensive I learn about it instantly


@S1m0n do you mean to say that specifically in the case of "long time no see" someone of a different race/nationality/ethnicity has told you they find it offensive? 

I'm just wondering if worrying about it being offensive is just a case of white people being overly worried about being politically correct, or if it's genuinely something that bothers people of other ethnicities.


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## kentix

Tegs said:


> I'm just wondering if worrying about it being offensive is just a case of white people being overly worried about being politically correct


It sounds like a classic case to me.


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## ARod82

kentix said:


> I guess you could look at it that way. But you could also look at it as a very useful phrase invented outside of the field of standard English that proved so useful that speakers of standard English adopted it wholeheartedly because of its perfection for the situations where it's used. It gets the point across very quickly with a minimum of wasted breath. I don't think you can successfully argue one is a more accurate description than the other. Obviously no one who uses it in their day to day life for its intended purpose has the intention of making fun of anyone and in fact they aren't. They are using it to communicate a straightforward meaning efficiently. Just as they aren't making fun of the French when using a phrase like _je ne sais quoi_. I'm sure 95% of people are unaware of its presumed origin, which to me is irrelevant in 2022 (and irrelevant in a larger sense anyway). Since when is adopting a useful phrase into standard English from an outside source racist? Give me a break.
> 
> (P.S. I spent time in an African country that speaks a version of English that is non-standard by US and UK standards. It has unique vocabulary, syntax and rhythm. Some people who speak more standard English have a hard time even understanding it. And I still use phrases I picked up there decades later because they are useful, pertinent and perfect for the situation. Granted, I mostly say them to myself because no one else would understand them, but in no way am I making fun of the people I lived with and learned them from by doing so. It's quite the opposite. A good idea is a good idea, and a nice turn of phrase is a nice turn of phrase, no matter where it comes from.)


Wow! I couldn’t have said it any better myself. Thank you posting this truth because if I wrote it, it would not come across right. 

I used this many times with my friends. I have used it as sarcasm because I had just spend the day with them. Than we see each other again in a large group of family and we say to each other jokingly “long time to see.” Im not native English speaker. Growing up and learning English, I would hear people using this phrase and I began to use it. I have people use it in a sarcastic way to indicate that you had just seen them and also that to indicate that you haven’t seen them in a while. 

Never in a funny voice. It is an expression to give the meaning across in a short and sweet way. People now a days always want to find something to be offended about! It’s origin came from China: great that’s awesome!


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