# definite article + first/family name



## Encolpius

Well, _*Portuguese *_is a textbook example of languages which uses definite article in front of the names. I am not sure if that works with first names only or with family names, too. In colloquial _*Hungarian *_it is common to use definite article in front of first and family names, too. *Which langauges can use definite article in front of first or family names?? *Thanks.


----------



## jazyk

> I am not sure if that works with first names only or with family names,  too.


Both.


----------



## apmoy70

Encolpius said:


> *Which langauges can use definite article in front of first or family names?? *Thanks.


Greek does that.
e.g
Ο Νικόλαος, o Ni'kolaos (o-->masculine sing. definite article): _[the]_ Nicholas
H Γαλλία, i ɣa'lia (η-->feminine sing. definite article): _[the]_ France
Το Βελιγράδι, to Veli'ɣraði (το-->neuter sing. definite article): _[the]_ Belgrade
Οι Παπαδόπουλοι, i papa'ðopuli (οι-->masculine pl. definite article):_[the family of]_ Papadopoulos


----------



## Awwal12

I'm sorry, but *Russian* has neither definite/indefinite articles nor definite/indefinite affixes.  That's why Russians often make mistakes in use of English articles.


----------



## enoo

*French* has definite article in front of names and country names (_La_ France, _Le_ Canada, ..), but not in front of family names or first names. 

(Actually, in colloquial speech, definite article can be used in front of first/familly names, in a degoratory way. E.g. « Il commence à m'énerver sérieux, *le* Mathieu là ! » : more or less "That Mathieu guy over there is seriously starting to get on my nerves")


----------



## amikama

Hebrew doesn't put the definite article before first/family names, because they are assumed to be definite already, so no need for extra definite article.

However, Hebrew does put the definite article before proper names of rivers and mountains, e.g. *ה*ירדן (The Jordan [river]), הרי *ה*אנדים (The Andes mountains).


----------



## Encolpius

amikama said:


> Hebrew doesn't put the definite article before first/family names, because they are assumed to be definite already, so no need for extra definite article...



Sounds very interesting, since I speak no Hebrew, could you explain to me if it means there is a grammatical word defining the definity of personal names??? I do not think so. Thanks.


----------



## amikama

No, no, it's the same as in English: you don't say "The John", just "John", even if you speak about a specific person named John. "The John" is as ungrammatical as "the the cat".


----------



## Ben Jamin

Awwal12 said:


> I'm sorry, but *Russian* has neither definite/indefinite articles nor definite/indefinite affixes.  That's why Russians often make mistakes in use of English articles.


 Polish has not got any definite articles either, but it is common in VERY informal speech to use the demonstrative pronouns, for instance "ten Janek, ta Jola", when telling a story about someone that is not known to the listener. It is something like "this guy John". This is totally banned in written ("literary") language as a plebeism.


----------



## Encolpius

Well, now it seems to me *Catalan *(not surprising) has the same rules as Portuguese. I wonder what natives would say.


----------



## Outsider

There is some dialectal variation in Portuguese with regard to the use or omission of the definite article before proper nouns. Those interested will find further information in this thread and in the last pages of this thread.

I understand that in some varieties of *German* proper nouns are also preceded by an article, but this seems to be disparaged in standard German.


----------



## Favara

Encolpius said:


> Well, now it seems to me *Catalan *(not surprising) has the same rules as Portuguese. I wonder what natives would say.


Mainly used in the eastern variety (_català oriental_). The definite article is added before names of people you're familiar with (family, friends, neighbors) or famed characters (either RL celebrities or fictional). Can be used with first names, family names, nicknames, whatever that might count as some kind of name.
_El Pau. La Laia. El Bush. L'Elvis. El Gandalf i el Frodo._


----------



## Outsider

Now, there's a contrast with Portuguese. Ordinarily, it's before the names of public figures that we _omit_ the article!


----------



## Ben Jamin

Favara said:


> Mainly used in the eastern variety (_català oriental_). The definite article is added before names of people you're familiar with (family, friends, neighbors) or famed characters (either RL celebrities or fictional). Can be used with first names, family names, nicknames, whatever that might count as some kind of name.
> _El Pau. La Laia. El Bush. L'Elvis. El Gandalf i el Frodo._


 This is just opposite to the usage in Polish, where the definite pronoun (there is no definite or indefinite article in Polish) is put in front of names of persons that the narrator knows from fiction (books, films). It´s never used for persons that both the narrator and the listener know.


----------



## Encolpius

Example, please!


----------



## Ben Jamin

See my post of April 19.


----------



## ger4

Outsider said:


> I understand that in some varieties of *German* proper nouns are also preceded by an article, but this seems to be disparaged in standard German.


It is fairly common in southern parts of Germany (informally) to use the definite article in front of first names, to express some kind of familiarity. As for surnames, using them with the definite article seems to 'add a touch of contempt', in a way...


----------



## frugnaglio

Outsider said:


> Now, there's a contrast with Portuguese. Ordinarily, it's before the names of public figures that we _omit_ the article!



Same in Italian, in the regions where articles are used in colloquial speech before names.
Famous people are known by their “official Italian” name, that is without articles. Friends and such can take the article or not depending on the local usages. Here in Tuscany the definite article is used with all surnames and with all female names, but not with male names.
So for example to me _Andreotti_ is the politician Giulio Andreotti, while _l'Andreotti_ is a guy I know with that surname.


----------



## bazq

Ben Jamin said:


> Polish has not got any definite articles either, but it is common in VERY informal speech to use the demonstrative pronouns, for instance "ten Janek, ta Jola", when telling a story about someone that is not known to the listener. It is something like "this guy John". This is totally banned in written ("literary") language as a plebeism.



This occurs in Modern Hebrew and colloquial English too:
*ה*דניאל *הזה* מעצבן אותי [haDaniel haze me'atsben oti] lit. "*The* Daniel *the this* annoys me".

"This Daniel (guy) really gets on my nerves"


----------



## sound shift

amikama said:


> No, no, it's the same as in English: you don't say "The John", just "John", even if you speak about a specific person named John. "The John" is as ungrammatical as "the the cat".


I agree.
As for family names: We don't say *"the [sing.] Smith", but we do say "the [pl.] Smiths".


----------



## bo-marco

In *Italian *definite article is mandatory before female last name [*La *Pausini è una cantante], discretionary before male historic personality last name [(Il) Manzoni nacque a Milano], forbidden before male name [Alessandro Manzoni nacque a Milano] and deprecated before female name [Laura Pausini è una cantante].

In *Emilian *definite article is mandatory before female name and last name [*La *Laura l'è na cantànta - *La *Pausini l'è na cantànta] and forbidden before male name and last name [Manzoni 'l è naa a Milàŋ].

In *Lombard *definite article is mandatory before any name and last name [*El* Giovanni Trapattoni a l'è on alenador de folber italian].


----------



## ThomasK

In Dutch articles in front of names are uncommon. Only regional, before names, when we know someone well...


----------



## Self-taught

Encolpius said:


> Well, now it seems to me *Catalan *(not surprising) has the same rules as Portuguese. I wonder what natives would say.





Encolpius said:


> Example, please!



In catalan: *En* Marc li va dir a *la* Marta que *els* Domènech(s) són de vacances.
Translation: Mark told Marta that the Domènech family are on holidays.
In the sentence in catalan I wrote Domènech(s) because in this example one can say the family name in singular or plural, though normally it has to be in singular. You can hear both versions, anyway. But the article has to be in plural.


----------

