# Va da sè



## Lilypad604

What does the phrase "va da se`" mean when it introduces a sentence?

From "Rock churches of Matera" by La Scaletta:

"Va da se` che la presenza e l'insegnamento monastico ritardono la ricerca di nuove soluzioni...."


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## Lello4ever

It's the same as "E' chiaro, ovvio"


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## Paulfromitaly

It goes without saying.


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## ChickenChicken

Ciao,

Come si dice "vien da sè" in Inglese? Per esempio: "Marco è nato in Italia, vien da sè che è italiano".

WR lo traduce "comes by itself" ma credo sia una traduzione un pò sbagliata 

Ho sbgliato io, ho cercato "vien da sè" invece che "va da sè", c'è qualche altro modo di dirlo a parte quello di Paulfromitaly?


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## rrose17

I guess you could use "naturally" here.
Marco was born in Italy, naturally he's Italian.


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## ChickenChicken

Thank you


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## london calling

Or _He was born in Italy, so he's Italian, of course.

_But Paul's suggestion is the best.


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## tsoapm

I just used ‘it stands to reason’. I had ‘it goes without saying’, but it was a bit funny in context.


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## AlabamaBoy

Also, it is self-evident.


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## King Crimson

Another option could be "needless to say", but given the many options available the choice of the translation will depend on the context and personal preferences, I think.


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## Paulfromitaly

tsoapm said:


> I just used ‘it stands to reason’. I had ‘it goes without saying’, but it was a bit funny in context.


Mah, I'd simply say "it's obvious" then.


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## Aidone

E da A. Camilleri, Donne p.88 (Ingrid), durante un stage in Copenhagen si legge: "Al bar vidi due belle, va da sè alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila." Here I like "needless to say".


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## johngiovanni

"...and it goes without saying they were tall and blonde...".


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## Pietruzzo

johngiovanni said:


> "...and it goes without saying they were tall and blonde...".


In this case "va da sè" is a modifier of the adjectives "alte e bionde", not a separate clause like in "and it goes without saying..". The structure of the sentence should be more or less like this: " I saw two beautiful and, of course, tall and blonde young ladies that I later...


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## johngiovanni

I agree about the general construction, but think several variations are possible -  for example, "I saw two beautiful, and - it goes without saying - tall and blonde students" , or the clause "and it goes without saying they were tall and blonde", and even the punctuation could vary.  Dashes could be used instead of commas.


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## Paulfromitaly

Aidone said:


> E da A. Camilleri, Donne


Please bear in mind that Camilleri's Italian is anything but standard, so I wouldn't use it as a reference to learn idioms.


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## nsartor

Pietruzzo although you are correct grammatically the phrase is more of an idiom in English and
_" I saw two beautiful and, of course, tall and blonde young ladies that I later..."    _Doesn't really flow well.  

It's obviously important that they are in Copenhagen so I would go with:

At the bar I saw two beauties - needless to say tall and blonde - students who I would later find sitting in the first row of class. 

I agree with johngiovanni that the punctuation is variable but I do like dashes in this instance.

"Al bar vidi due belle, va da sè alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila."


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## Lorena1970

Lilypad604 said:


> "Va da se` che la presenza e l'insegnamento monastico ritardano la ricerca di nuove soluzioni...."



Se la frase in discussione è ancora questa ( mi pare....?) io direi "_*No need to say that.*_.........." . Semplicemente.



> "Al bar vidi due belle, va da sè alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila." Here I like "needless to say".



In questo caso, direi "_*obviously / clearly tall and blonde..."*_


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## barking fellows

nsartor said:


> At the bar I saw two beauties - needless to say tall and blonde - students *WHOM *I  would later find sitting in the first row of class.



Am I wrong? It's strange to correct natives but I think that here:
_- belle studentesse_ means _beautiful_ (or other adjective) _students_ (or other noun)
- "_beauties students"_ is however incorrect in English

Note that the original sentence went: "Al bar vidi due belle, va da s*é* alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila"


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## Lorena1970

barking fellows said:


> At the bar I saw two beauties - needless to say tall and blonde - students *WHOM *I would later find sitting in the first row of class
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Am I wrong? It's strange to correct natives but I think that here:
> _- belle studentesse_ means _beautiful_ (or other adjective) _students_ (or other noun)
> - "_beauties students"_ is however incorrect in English
Click to expand...


_*I am afraid you are wrong..*_. @nsartor sentence is correct."_*beauties" =belle figliole*_; "*students WHO I would later...etc*." is correct "*studentesse che mi sarei poi....*" it is implied that the two beauties were also two students that....

In my experience "whom" is quite rarely used nowadays.


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## johngiovanni

Lorena said: "In my experience 'whom' is quite rarely used nowadays."

Just to say that in English the relative pronoun is usually omitted when it would be the object of the relative clause:
"...students I would later see again in class, sitting on the front row".
(The implication might be that they were not only tall and beautiful but also intelligent, clever and keen to learn).


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## nsartor

It's true that "whom" is rarely used but it would still be correct in this instance.  I revised my translation.

 "Al bar vidi due belle, va da s*é* alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila"

I saw two beauties at the bar, needless to say tall and blonde, whom I would later find to be students sitting in the front row of class.


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## Mary49

barking fellows said:


> Am I wrong? It's strange to correct natives but I think that here: _- belle studentesse_ means _beautiful_ (or other adjective) _students_ (or other noun)  - "_beauties students"_ is however incorrect in English Note that the original sentence went: "Al bar vidi due belle, va da s*é* alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila"


I totally agree: "belle" is not a noun, it is an adjective referring to "studentesse"; the expression "va da sé..." could have been in brackets instead of between commas:  "Al bar vidi due belle (va da s*é* alte e bionde) studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila".


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## johngiovanni

nsartor said:


> whom I would later find to be students



Does the Italian phrase "studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe" mean that, or does it mean that he realised they were students at the time they were in the bar?


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## barking fellows

I like nsartor's solution at #22. I think that, in order to meet john's point at #24, we could skip the "students", what do you think? After all it's clear they're students if they're sitting in/on the front row. By the way IN or ON? I'd say IN but john made me doubtful


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## johngiovanni

Personally, I would keep "students" because it is there in the original.  I _think_ the construction implies he realised they were students when he saw them in the bar, but need to check with a native.


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## Mary49

johngiovanni said:


> Personally, I would keep "students" because it is there in the original.  I _think_ the construction implies he realised they were students when he saw them in the bar, but need to check with a native.


The bar was inside the university. "INGRID Andrea, quasi cinquantenne, è a Copenaghen, dove terrà un corso su Pirandello all’Università". See my post #23.


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## barking fellows

johngiovanni said:


> Personally, I would keep "students" because it is there in the original.  I _think_ the construction implies he realised they were students when he saw them in the bar, but need to check with a native.



Alright. To me, the Italian phrase "studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe" doesn't mean that he surely realized they were students at the time they were in the bar, but doesn't surely mean the opposite neither. He could have realized this in the bar or he could have imagined it only, or he could have realized it when he saw them in the classroom. The English "whom I would later find to be students", instead, surely means that he realized later, so you're right if you think it's different from the original. But I think this difference is unimportant, compared to what follows.

If I was to translate the whole sentence, I'd go for "At the bar I saw two beautiful students - needless to say tall and blonde - I would later find sitting etc." *but* I agree with nsartor that:
1. beginning the sentence with "At the bar" is not as natural as it is with "I saw";
2. while "studentesse" is feminine, "students" has no gender so, finding a way to use "beauties" instead of "beautiful" may be important to convey the original message (the image that comes to mind by reading "belle studentesse" is very clear, the one with "beautiful students" is not! Or is it just me..?)
So eventually I think his solution is the best, or I'd go for "I saw two beauties at the bar, needless to say tall and blonde, whom I would later find sitting in the front row of class"

EDIT: Mary


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## Mary49

barking fellows said:


> EDIT: Mary


Quello che intendevo dire è che sono "belle studentesse", non "belle" nel senso di "bellezze"; lo scrittore le vede nel bar interno dell'università quindi le descrive come studentesse, persone facilmente riconoscibili soprattutto all'interno di una università  Donne (VINTAGE) 

Aggiungo che con 





> the expression "va da sé..." could have been in brackets instead of between commas


 intendevo dire che "va da sé" è un inciso, e come tale poteva essere anche tra parentesi o eliminato, restava "Al bar vidi due belle studentesse...".


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## Lorena1970

johngiovanni said:


> Does the Italian phrase "studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe" mean that, or does it mean that he realised they were students at the time they were in the bar?



It means that he later realized , when he met them in the classroom, that they were students.

Read it like that: _*Al bar vidi due belle**;* *va da sè alte e bionde**;* *studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila.*" _
As Paul said, Camilleri's writing style isn't standard Italian, and punctuation use as well is more similar to the way it's used when writing screenplays than when writing novels. So you have to imagine pauses and self-reflections, specially when he describes events that his characters observes.



nsartor said:


> It's true that "whom" is rarely used but it would still be correct in this instance.  I revised my translation.
> 
> "Al bar vidi due belle, va da s*é* alte e bionde, studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila"
> 
> *I saw two beauties in the bar, needless to say tall and blonde, whom I would later find to be students sitting in the front row of class.*



Well, you omitted "students". So it's ok. But "students whom" sounds clunky to my ears...


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## Pietruzzo

Lorena1970 said:


> Read it like that: _*Al bar vidi due belle**;* *va da sè alte e bionde**;* *studentesse che poi mi ritrovai in classe, sedute in prima fila.*" _


Non è così. Al bar nota  le belle studentesse alte e bionde (ovviamente, essendo a Copenaghen) e poi scopre che seguono proprio il suo corso. Non me lo fate ripetere più.


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## Mary49

Non voglio essere "puntigliosa", ma il racconto "Ingrid" _*(provate a leggerne qualche riga!)*_, da cui è tratta la frase, non è nello stile tipico di Camilleri, anzi, è uno stile narrativo molto lineare e chiaro, sicuramente standard. Con questo stile il termine "belle" nel senso di "beauties" non ci sta proprio. Io leggo così: Al bar vidi due belle studentesse (va da sé alte e bionde _[ovvio, si trovava a Copenhagen]_) che poi...".
Dopo di ciò credo che qualche Mod ci bacchetterà...

Grazie Pietruzzo di essere con me!


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## King Crimson

Mary49 said:


> Dopo di ciò credo che qualche Mod ci bacchetterà...



Anzi, sono pienamente d'accordo. Concordo con Paul quando dice che l'italiano di Camilleri è assolutamente non standard, ma questo vale solo per i romanzi della serie di Montalbano e alcuni altri ambientati in Sicilia e scritti nello stesso stile. Altri suoi libri sono invece scritti in un italiano ottimo e assolutamente standard.


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## london calling

My  take:

_While I was in the bar a couple of pretty girls caught my eye. Needless to say they were tall and blonde. _

I don't think we need to specify they're students as it becomes pretty obvious they are when he finds them sitting in the front row in the classroom/lecture hall.


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