# Happy birthday



## Pivra

Did the Romans even have that phrase in their language anyway lol

How would I say...

Happy Birthday. May everything you wish for comes true. Thank you for helping me out with things I cant figure out by myself all the times.


thx u lol


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## Flaminius

Searching Google by your post title (minus smiley) returned a wonderful page from about.com.  I think providing a link is discrete....

But hurrmph, the forum system rejects my URL quotation saying that my post count is not mature enough.  (I would add a lot of angry smileys here if I know how to)  Anyways, you can try searching Google by "*Latin: Happy birthday*".

Flam, khon Japan.


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## Megami_21

Beatus Natalis would be blessed birthday.

Spero habes beatum natalum. I hope you have a blessed birthday.


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## mateo19

Megami_21 said:


> Beatus Natalis would be blessed birthday.
> 
> Spero habes beatum natalum. I hope you have a blessed birthday.



The subjunctive is messier in Latin than in the Neolatin languages, in my opinion, but the verb spero has the same use as in Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan or Italian (but NOT French).
Espero que _tengas _un feliz cumple, espero que você _tenha_, espero que _tinguis_, spero che _abbi_,...  J'espère que tu as...
So, in Latin you also need the subjunctive of HABERE.  Spero habeas, instead of habes.
 As for introducing the subjunctive, I don't know if you can just say it like that or if you have to use UT.  I'm not that far along yet.  Good luck!


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## Whodunit

mateo19 said:


> Espero que _tengas _un feliz cumple, espero que você _tenha_, espero que _tinguis_, spero che _abbi_,... J'espère que tu as...


 
I think in French they prefer the future tense:

J'espère que tu auras ...



> As for introducing the subjunctive, I don't know if you can just say it like that or if you have to use UT. I'm not that far along yet. Good luck!


 
My own versions would be "*Die natili salutem*" (long: te die natili salutem habere volo) or "*Diem natilem optimum* (gratulor)."


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## mateo19

Je suis d'accord qu’un Français utiliserait le futur, mais dans mon exemple je voulais tout simplement montrer que c'est l'indicatif et non le subjonctif qui s'emploie!   J'espère que tu iras bien!


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## Whodunit

mateo19 said:


> Je suis d'accord qu’un Français utiliserait le futur, mais dans mon exemple je voulais tout simplement montrer que c'est l'indicatif et non le subjonctif qui s'emploie!  J'espère que tu iras bien!


 
Oui, c'est correct. On n'utilise pas le subjonctif après "espérer". D'ailleurs, qu'en penses-tu de ma traduction de "Happy Birthday" vers le latin?


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## jazyk

Je ne vois rien de fautif avec _J'espère que tu as: J'espère que tu as reçu mon cadeau. 

_Jazyk


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## Whodunit

jazyk said:


> Je ne vois rien de fautif _(je pense que l'on utiliserait 'faux' ici)_ avec _J'espère que tu as: J'espère que tu as reçu mon cadeau. _
> 
> Jazyk


 
C'est une autre possibilité d'utiliser le mot "espérer" en beaucoup de langues. On peut toujours prendre le temps passé après "espérer", mais je ne le verrais pas important pour ce fil. Au cas où vous voulez continuer de le discuter, je propose d'ouvrer un fil dans le forum français.


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## Musical Chairs

we used to say "felix dies natalis tibi!" ("happy birthday to you," like the song)


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## Whodunit

Musical Chairs said:


> we used to say "felix dies natalis tibi!" ("happy birthday to you," like the song)


 
And why did you use it in the nominative? As far as I know, in case-based languages (German is one of them ), they use the accusative to wish something to something (required by the verb 'to wish'). I would have expected, if at all, "*Felicem diem natalem tibi.*"


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## Musical Chairs

Well maybe if it went like "I want a happy birthday for you." It could be alright if it meant "It is a happy birthday for you" or "there is to you a happy birthday" right? I'm not sure since I have switched languages and I haven't taken Latin in a while.


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## jazyk

I totally agree with Whodunit, with the caveat that Russian would use the genitive there, but that's a whole nother thing.

Jazyk


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## Musical Chairs

But isn't it true that "felix dies natalis tibi" could be translated into "it is a happy birthday for you" or "there is to you a happy birthday" since there is no verb?


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## Whodunit

Musical Chairs said:


> But isn't it true that "felix dies natalis tibi" could be translated into "it is a happy birthday for you" or "there is to you a happy birthday" since there is no verb?


 
Yes, it could, but that is a statement and not a wish. You wouldn't say "お誕生日めでとうごはざいます" in Japanese either, if I understand the use of お before めでとうご in the correct expression, would you?


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## Musical Chairs

In that way it's like "good night"...maybe "happy birthday" alone (without "to you") could be interpreted as "have a happy birthday." (I'm not sure what this would be in Latin anymore though.)

I wish I could go back to my teacher and ask her why she put it in the nominative case but that's impossible :-(


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## Whodunit

Musical Chairs said:


> In that way it's like "good night"...maybe "happy birthday" alone (without "to you") could be interpreted as "have a happy birthday." (I'm not sure what this would be in Latin anymore though.)


 
Whichever verb you use, it's always the accusative (have/wish/want/celebrate). No verb (except for the copula 'be') can take the nominative.

"Have a happy birrthday" would be "_Felicem diem natalem habe_."


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## Musical Chairs

I think "happy birthday" can be interpreted different ways alone (without the context of "to you" or the song).


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## mateo19

I would tend to agree with Whodunit!  I would expect the Accusative case since you are wishing °A HAPPY BIRTHDAY° to someone.  It is the direct object, even if it's not explicit (verbo tácito).  I too would say, *Felicem diem natalem tibi.*


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## mateo19

An amazing idea just occurred to me!  It is very possible that in Ancient Rome they didn't say "Happy Birthday to you" or "I wish you a happy birthday"!  I was just thinking about Spanish, Portuguese and Russian...  In Spanish we often say "Felicidades", "Que los cumplas feliz" instead of "Feliz cumpleaños", in Port. "Parabéns" and my Russian friends always tells me, "Congratulations" on my b-day.  Maybe the Romans said something to the tune of "congrats" or "happiness!"

Just an idea.  Any second opinions?


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## Whodunit

mateo19 said:


> Just an idea. Any second opinions?


 
That would be "gratulationem" and I don't think that they used it in this context. I will ask my Latin teacher on Tuesday, if I get the chance to do that.

By the way, Google the phrase "Felicem diem natalem" brings up quite a lot hits (in comparison to the other suggestions). 

EDIT: I've just found another version: _Felix sit natalis dies_. But I don't like it.


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## Stephanus

In my school when a pupil in a class has his or her birthday we sing (to the tune of "Happy Birthday to you", "Joyeux anniversaire", "Cumpleaños feliz" etc.):

Felix dies natalis, felix dies natalis,
felix dies natalis, care/a ..............., tibi sit!

- with the name of course in its Latin form if possible. I'm sure there must be other Latin versions but this is the one I thought up in a few seconds thirteen years ago.


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## Musical Chairs

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's known it to be felix dies natalis tiibi.


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## Spectre scolaire

mateo19 said:
			
		

> It is very possible that in Ancient Rome they didn't say "Happy Birthday to you" or "I wish you a happy birthday"!


_mateo19_ still ends up by focusing on _birth_, but I think birthday celebrations are something relatively new. Earlier, people didn’t know on which day they were born – and nobody really cared, unless the birth took place in connection with some important event in the local community. In that case they would relate it to this – exactly as Ancient Romans related a _year_ to the advent of their emperor. It was a work of Herculean proportions to relate all events in the classical world to another _imperator_, i.e. to fix an _anno domini_ to battles, birth_years_ of various celebrities, the first performance of a play by Aeschylus - you name it. 

If we look at the question from a socio-anthropological point of view, in all societies there are _rites de passage_ which are of capital importance for every individual. Take Christian (original) _sacraments_ as *a*) baptism, *b*) first holy communion and *c*) marriage, all being central _rites de passage_, not only in Christian communities, but just anywhere – with different names and different contents, of course, and often with a more clear-_cut_[sic] relation to body and nature. You are *a*) registered as a member of the community, *b*) you reach adult age, *c*) you get permission to procreate, and then, those who remain will (probably) commemorate your passing away.

_Where is *birth* in this picture?_

In today’s Greece, it is only very recently that people started celebrating *birthdays*. What is being celebrated is a person’s *namesday*. If there is a traffic chaos in Athens, be sure that a Γιάννης, a Δημήτριος or a Βασίλης is celebrating a saint with the corresponding name - and himself...

In Turkey, no individual above 80 (or thereabout) would know his or her birthday – unless they belong to a family which “keeps records”, But ordinary people don’t do that! Archives are associated with central administrative things. It was quite interesting to see when the Turkish Republic was celebrating its 70th anniversary, its 75th and its 80th anniversary. _Nobody_ ever came up with a claim saying that they were exactly as old as the Republic. And if somebody thought he or she was, it would have been a delicate matter to prove it. No doubt, many newpapers would have published a picture of such a person. No newspaper did – as far as I can remember. 

So, did the Romans (or the Ancient Greeks) have a formula for “Happy birthday?” I don’t think they had! –which doesn’t prevent us from working out how to say it in Latin...

Pour terminer dans l’esprit polyglotte de cette discussion, hier geht es wahrscheinlich nur um des Kaisers Bart zu streiten...




			
				Whodunit said:
			
		

> Au cas où vous voulezvoudriez continuer de le discuter la discussion, je vous propose d'ouvrerir un fil dans le forum français.


-- ou bien de renvoyer la discussion aux _calendes grecques_, c.-à-d. de la remettre à un temps qui ne viendra jamais, les Grecs, précisément, n’ayant pas de calendes comme les Romains.

By the way, _Whodunit_ – happy 10.000 interventions in the WordReference Forums! Presently referring to your post #9,999, I suppose bottles of Champagne have already become _cadavres_**)* et les confetti ne représentent plus que de faibles souvenirs...
 **)* = bouteilles vidées ​


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## Stephanus

The Romans may or may not have had a stereotype greeting for birthdays, but they - or at least those of a certain social standing - certainly celebrated them. One only need think of Horace celebrating Maecenas' birthday according to the well known lines in the 11th Ode in the Fourth Book:
xxx
        iure sollemnis mihi sanctiorque
        paene natali proprio, quod ex hac
        luce Maecenas meus affluentis
             ordinat annos


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## Spectre scolaire

Stephanus said:
			
		

> The Romans may or may not have had a stereotype greeting for birthdays, but they - or at least those of a certain social standing - certainly celebrated them.


Indeed! And thanks for the ode reminder! It just proves my point: 



			
				Spectre scolaire said:
			
		

> In Turkey, no individual above 80 (or thereabout) would know his or her birthday – unless they belong to a family which “keeps records”. But ordinary people don’t do that!.


Maecenas was a high-ranking political counsellor.
​


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## Nurnen

mateo19 said:


> I would tend to agree with Whodunit! I would expect the Accusative case since you are wishing °A HAPPY BIRTHDAY° to someone. It is the direct object, even if it's not explicit (verbo tácito). I too would say, *Felicem diem natalem tibi.*


 
I agree with you both. The idiomatic phrase is *Felicem diem natalem tibi (exopto/precor)*


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## Whodunit

Yesterday, I found another phrase suggested by Wikipedia: Bonam natalitiam. I, personally, don't like it, but what do you think about it?


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## relativamente

I think bonam natalitiam it's o.k. although it seems to me it's a modern construction.  I don't think most Romans knew which day they were born.  Some perhaps would know they were born some days before the kalendae of April of the year on the consulate of consul X, others not even that.  But some knew how many days  they have lived.  For example in one tombstone 
To the spirits of the dead and the eternal memory of Mattonius Restitutus, citizen of the tribe of the Triboci, salesman of cured meats, a most decent man, who died at the age of 40 years, 3 months, 18 days; Ruttonia Martiola, his wife, who lived with him 9 years, 9 days without any wounding of the heart, and Mattonius Germanus, left by his father at the age of 3 years, 1 month, 12 days, and Mattonius Respectinus, 9 months, his children and heirs took the care of putting up this dedication and, still living, dedicated this for themselves while still under construction. 
This would be a short for "bonam diem natalitiam habeas."  Dies is masculine in more ancient texts "carpe diem....postero" but is feminine in ecclesiastical Latin "dies irae, dies illa"


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## Stephanus

The Romans of Classicla and pre-classical times were very "day-conscious". They had a very complicated calender to keep a grip on with holidays and festivals spread out in an untidy fashion and no week to make sense of it all. So it is really rather likely that free men and their families knew which days were their birthdays, and not impossible that the same would apply to slaves who grew up in ordered circumstances with parents at hand or in a single household. When I mentioned "social standing" I was thinking of what can be proven to have been the case by means of written evidence. If we consider what probably was the case, well, I think that probably a knowledge of birthdays would have been pretty commonplace.


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## Nurnen

Whodunit said:


> Yesterday, I found another phrase suggested by Wikipedia: Bonam natalitiam. I, personally, don't like it, but what do you think about it?


 
In Latin there is the adjective _natalicius,a, um _that has to do with birth. For example in Cicero Phil. 2, 15 we can find the noun _natalicia, ae_ meaning_ birthday supper_, in Censorinus _natalicium,ii _meaning _birthday gift._

We have also the adjective _natalis, e_ which too has to do with birth in phrases like_ natalis hora _=_ birth hour; natalis humus _= _homeland_. But it also means _birthday _as we can find in Plautus _mi est natalis dies _= _it's my birthday _or _natalis _= _birthday _in Cicero.

I think that the phrase you have found in Wiki could be a late or vulgar form, or a modern construction - as Stephanus pointed out.
But it sounds strange to me.


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## Sacripante

I think that

Felix dies natalis is correct and is a wish, if we consider

Felix dies natalis sit tibi (possessive dative)


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