# I haven't not taken my cell phone with me.



## GeogeHalin

Hello members.

Imagine you are leaving from your home for school, you sister says goodbye to you,, and you leave the house and close the door. Then you realise you forgot to take your phone with you.
Do you say "Oh! I haven't taken my cell phone with me" or "Oh! I didn't take my cell phone with me." before you open the door again to get in to get your phone? And your sister sees you and asks "You're back!" so you answer "Yeah, I haven't not taken my cell phone with me." or "I didn't take my cell phone with me

This happened to me today, and it got me thinking what is the correct thing to say.
I think if we are already out of the house, we use the past tense. And we also use the past tense with our sister because we want to refer to the time before we got out the house. At least I think in AE we do that.
Would the British use the present perfect?

Thank you! I think this is different from the similar posts I have read since the time is tricky.


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## Tegs

I would say "Oh, I forgot my phone!" and then after "You're back!" - "Yes, I forgot my phone". 

_To forget your phone _is much more common than _to not take your phone with you_.


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## sdgraham

Do you say "Oh! I haven't not taken my cell phone with me"

In other words: "Oh! I have *not not *taken my cell phone with me

This double negative means you did indeed take your phone. It's also highly unnatural.


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## london calling

I agree with Tegs that _to forget your phone_ is more common that your suggestion, GH, but I (personally) would use the present perfect: _I've forgotten my phone. _

PS: I any case you cannot say _I haven't not taken_.....not not?!


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## sound shift

To myself, before I open the door: "I've forgotten my phone."
To my sister, back inside: "Yeah, I forgot my phone."


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## london calling

sound shift said:


> To myself, before I open the door: "I've forgotten my phone."
> To my sister, back inside: "Yeah, I forgot my phone."


Yes, same here.


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## DonnyB

First of all I'd say "Oh, I've forgotten my phone" or "Oh, I haven't got my phone".
Then to my sister: "Yeah, I forgot my phone" or "Yeah, I went without my phone".


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## GeogeHalin

Sorry, it was a typo. I meant "Oh! I haven't taken my cell phone with me".

Would you minding telling mw what you'd use as an AE speaker, SDG, please?
Thanks!


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## Sparky Malarky

AE is exactly the same as BE in this case -- "I forgot my phone."


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## london calling

Sparky Malarky said:


> AE is exactly the same as BE in this case -- "I forgot my phone."


We don't use the past simple in both cases, however.


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## GeogeHalin

Sparky Malarky said:


> AE is exactly the same as BE in this case -- "I forgot my phone."


Hi!
Do you mean we use past tense before we open the door and after we've gone back to the house??


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## Ivan_I

london calling said:


> but I (personally) would use the present perfect: _I've forgotten my phone._



Which makes "I haven't taken my phone" possible...


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## Ivan_I

sound shift said:


> To myself, before I open the door: "I've forgotten my phone."
> To my sister, back inside: "Yeah, I forgot my phone."


Still I wonder would it be also possible to say to the sister "I've forgotten my phone."


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> Still I wonder would it be also possible to say to the sister "I've forgotten my phone."


By the time you say something to your sister, you have already remembered, so the forgetting is definitely in the past, so "present" perfect no longer works


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## zaffy

sound shift said:


> To myself, before I open the door: "I've forgotten my phone."
> To my sister, back inside: "Yeah, I forgot my phone."



Non-natives will never master your way of perceiving things


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> By the time you say something to your sister, you have already remembered, so the forgetting is definitely in the past, so "present" perfect no longer works


Good point. But I remember that when you tell news to someone it's typical to use the present perfect. 
*She has had a baby!
Peter has come back!*

Isn't it a good situation to crack the news to the sister! I know that I have already remembered but she doesn't know yet. 
*Oh, I have left my phone! *
Otherwise, can the sister interpret the "I forgot my phone!" as something which happened last week or else when in the past but not recently?


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> Non-natives will never master your way of perceiving things


The instant at which the realization occurs is "now" and the realization is that "I have forgotten my phone". A few seconds later, the realization (and the forgetting) are in the past.


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## sound shift

zaffy said:


> Non-natives will never master your way of perceiving things


I'm not sure you can speak for all non-natives, but in any case, what am I supposed to say here - other than that there's no universal logic that applies to all languages, so different ways of perceiving things are to be expected.


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> The instant at which the realization iccurs is "now" and the realization is that "I have forgotten my phone". A few seconds later, the realizxation (and the forgetting) are in the past.


So, if the guy had decided to come back home due to a different reason (without realizing that he had forgotten the phone) and if at the moment when his sister had opened the door he had recalled that he didn't have the phone he would have said: "I have forgotten my phone"?


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> *Oh, I have left my phone! *
> Otherwise, can the sister interpret the "I forgot my phone!" as something which happened last week or else when in the past but not recently?


The situation changes when you change the verb 
In the OP context, the sister will understand that the explanation is being provided as a reason for the return (to pick up the "just forgotten" phone).  Why would someone return to inform the sister that they had forgotten a phone a wek ago ? Changes in context and logic MUST be included in trying to understand sentences.


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## Myridon

Ivan_I said:


> Good point. But I remember that when you tell news to someone it's typical to use the present perfect.
> *She has had a baby!
> Peter has come back!*
> 
> Isn't it a good situation to crack the news to the sister! I know that I have already remembered but she doesn't know yet.
> *Oh, I have left my phone! *
> Otherwise, can the sister interpret the "I forgot my phone!" as something which happened last week or else when in the past but not recently?


The baby and Peter are still here.  The "forgotten" state of the phone is not.
If you forgot your phone last week, this would be a very odd time to tell your sister about it.


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> Why would someone return to inform the sister that they had forgotten a phone a wek ago ?


Still, it's not impossible....


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> So, if the guy had decided to come back home due to a different reason (without realizing that he had forgotten the phone) and if at the moment when his sister had opened the door he had recalled that he didn't have the phone he would have said: "I have forgotten my phone"?


If that is the instant he realizes, then he might well say "I came back to change my shoes but now I realize I have forgotten my phone"


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## zaffy

Say we are at school and the teacher asks a student to hand in the homework. What does the student reply?

-I'm sorry I forgot to do my homework
-I'm sorry I've forgotten to do my homework.

-I'm sorry I forgot to bring my homework
-I'm sorry I've forgotten to bring my homework.


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> Still, it's not impossible....


But not very helpful in a discussion of the sentence in the OP,  We should not waste time on such stupid extremely unlikely context possibilities


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## Ivan_I

Myridon said:


> The baby and Peter are still here.  The "forgotten" state of the phone is not.


The point is not to remember that you have forgotten your phone but to pick it up. So, even if I recalled that I had forgotten the phone it doesn't compensate the missing phone. I consider that the "missing" state of the phone is still ON/HERE. 
Or do you mean if "leave" was used then it would be OK to use the present perfect because the "I have left my phone" would indicate that the phone is still left?


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> Say we are at school and the teacher asks a student to hand in the homework. What does the student reply?
> 
> -I'm sorry I forgot to do my homework
> -I'm sorry I've forgotten to do my homework.
> 
> -I'm sorry I forgot to bring my homework
> -I'm sorry I've forgotten to bring my homework.


If they are in class as you describe, then ask yourself when the forgetting happened?


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> The point is not to remember that you have forgotten your phone but to pick it up. So, even if I recalled that I had forgotten the phone it doesn't compensate the missing phone. I consider that the "missing" state of the phone is still ON/HERE.
> Or do you mean if "leave" was used then it would be OK to use the present perfect because the "I have left my phone" would indicate that the phone is still left?


The transition from forgetting to remembering takes an instant.  The the "forgotten" state is instantly and definitely in the past.


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## zaffy

JulianStuart said:


> If they are in class as you describe, then ask yourself when the forgetting happened?



The forgetting to do the homework took place at home, so the Simple Past, right?
However, the forgetting to bring it, has reference to the present class, so the Present Perfect?


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> Forgetting to do the homework took place at home, so the Simple Past, right?
> Forgetting to bring it has reference to the present class, so the Present Perfect?


The forgetting occurred in the past - when you forgot to put the homework in your school bag.  Right now, (or some time after getting on the school bus) is you when you "remembered", so it's the same as telling your sister about "realizing about forgetting the phone"


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> The transition from forgetting to remembering takes an instant.  The the "forgotten" state is instantly and definitely in the past.


OK, but these are also in the past
*She has had a baby!
Peter has come back!* 

The very actions of *bearing *and *coming *are also in the past. But they are used in the present perfect. Why? 

The problem is that we take into consideration two point "when something happens" and "what result is has in the present". And to be honest, it's not clear when prevails the first factor and when the other.


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## zaffy

JulianStuart said:


> so it's the same as telling your sister about "realizing about forgetting the phone"



It is the same if he remembered it, say, at the beginning of the class and then he knows he doesn't have it on him when asked by the teacher. But what if he realises he doesn't have his homework on him the moment the teacher asks him to hand it in?


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## Ivan_I

zaffy said:


> It is the same if he remembered it, say, at the beginning of the class and then he knows he doesn't have it on him when asked by the teacher. But what if he realises he doesn't have his homework on him the moment the teacher asks him to hand it in?


In theory it should be the present perfect... but you never know.)


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## sound shift

zaffy said:


> But what if he realises he doesn't have his homework on him the moment the teacher asks him to hand it in?


Then it could go either way:

"I forgot to bring it": implicit reference to the moment when he should have picked it up; OR

"I've forgotten to bring it": focus on the discovery there and then and its present relevance.


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> But what if he realises he doesn't have his homework on him the moment the teacher asks him to hand it in?


Then he has bigger problems than what tense to choose  He still realizes that the forgetting occurred in the past, not in the classroom.


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> Then he has bigger problems than what tense to choose  He still realizes that the forgetting occurred in the past, not in the classroom.


JulianStuart, but *all *sentences using the present perfect refer to the actions occurred in the past. So, what is the present perfect for? If it was so easy to determine which one to use by simply realizing when the action took place then it would be easy and we would always use the past simple.... Because even one nano second ago is in the past.... I think it's more complicated than that. Don't you think so?


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> JulianStuart, but *all *sentences using the present perfect refer to the actions occurred in the past. So, what is the present perfect for? If it was so easy to determine which one to use by simply realizing when the action took place then it would be easy and we would always use the past simple.... Because even one nano second ago is in the past.... I think it's more complicated then that. Don't you think so?


The length of the time period we call "now" varies from almost nothing:  the shortest time possible is the Planck time 10-43 seconds (I think) to millennia/era.
Different verbs are used differently (and are still influenced by context and logic).
I don't think I can help any further with the current question, and trying to generalize is frequently not helpful, as you have illustrated


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## Ivan_I

JulianStuart said:


> I don't think I can help any further with the current question, and trying to generalize is frequently not helpful, as you have illustrated


Thank you for trying anyway... I think, I and Zaffy will be "terrorizing" you from time to time with other "stupid" questions))))


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## JulianStuart

Ivan_I said:


> Thank you for trying anyway... I think, I and Zaffy will be "terrorizing" you from time to time with other "stupid" questions))))


Choice of simple/present perfect and use of articles must be particularly troublesome for learners whose language does not use them.  Weird contexts don't advance the learning process much, however


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## zaffy

And say I want to address someone yet I don't remember their name. What do I say?

Sorry, I forgot your name. Can you remind me?
Sorry, I've forgotten your name. Can you remind me?


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## JulianStuart

Both will work.  One nuance might be that the present perfect suggests you have only just forgotten (or recently) which would be more polite/pleasant than implying that you forgot them a long time ago


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## RM1(SS)

To myself, before I open the door: "[_Expletive deleted_]!"
To my sister, back inside: "Forgot my phone."


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## zaffy

JulianStuart said:


> Both will work.



I asked this question also on a different forum and interestingly enough, a BE speaker liked the Present Perfect only.


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> I asked this question also on a different forum and interestingly enough, a BE speaker liked the Present Perfect only.
> 
> View attachment 43977


A very polite person


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## london calling

zaffy said:


> I asked this question also on a different forum and interestingly enough, a BE speaker liked the Present Perfect only.
> 
> View attachment 43977


Same here, to be perfectly honest.


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> I found this example with no context in a dictionary. "During the break I called in to the office." What does it mean? How does it differ from "During the break I called the office."?


(Separate thread?)


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## zaffy

And how about AE? Would they care about being polite or not, or will they just say 'Sorry I forgot your name'?


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> And how about AE? Would they care about being polite or not, or will they just say 'Sorry I forgot your name'?


Are you asking whether AE speakers are polite?  Or whether they feel the nuance of verb choice relates to politeness? As a native BE speaker (acquiring AE "skills" later in life) I am not qualified to answer the latter - you'll have to do a research study (or hope enough AE speakers respond to this thread )


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## zaffy

I'm asking with reference to this   



JulianStuart said:


> Both will work. One nuance might be that the *present perfect suggests you have only just forgotten (or recently) which would be more polite*/pleasant than implying that you forgot them a long time ago


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## london calling

It's nothing to do with being polite, it's just the way we usually say it. I never use the past simple in this context. I'd class it as US usage.


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## JulianStuart

zaffy said:


> I'm asking with reference to this


You mean this?


JulianStuart said:


> Both will work. * One nuance might be* that the present perfect suggests you have only just forgotten (or recently) which would be more polite/pleasant than implying that you forgot them a long time ago


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## JulianStuart

london calling said:


> It's nothing to do with being polite, it's just the way we usually say it. Is never use the past simple in this context. I'd class it as US usage.



We are back to the "style" difference between AE and BE in usage of simple versus present perfect.


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