# transcend to



## Alladine

Bonjour,
J'ai déjà du mal avec "transcend" alors, "transcend to", ça me dépasse.

_This distinction is critical because financial discipline must *transcend to* any wealth campaign._
Contexte : ce qui est généralement conseillé par la Société pour s'enrichir (Faire des heures sup', découper des bons de réduction, ne pas s'endetter, etc.) et qui implique une discipline de fer où l'on hypothèque le présent dans le but d'un avenir meilleur, ce que MJ DeMarco appelle la Voie lente pour s'enrichir (dans _The Millionaire Fastlane),_ peut effectivement faire partie d'un plan pour s'enrichir, mais ne doit pas représenter tout le plan. C'est la distinction à laquelle il est fait allusion ici. Mais je ne comprends pas la phrase avec ce "transcend to". Ou peut-être est-ce le _wealth campaign_...?

Help needed please. Merci,
Alladine


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## Garoubet

Je le traduirais par "se dépasser" ou "s'élever au niveau de". La discipline financière doit s'élever au niveau d'une course à la richesse.
Je n'aime pas trop mais je ne trouve pas mieux.


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## Itisi

My try: ...trouver moyen de s'appliquer à toute opération destinée à accroître sa fortune

Edit - on doit trouver moyen d'appliquer cette discipline à toute etc


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## Kelly B

I've read the selection and I still can't see what the word _transcend _is meant to be doing in that sentence. 
What I'd expect the sentence to say in context is _should be only an element/aspect of, _or even _be subordinate to, _but that sure isn't what it says.
context


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## Itisi

That's M J DeM for you!


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## Alladine

Garoubet said:


> La discipline financière doit s'élever au niveau d'une course à la richesse.



Merci Garoubet pour cette tentative (j'aime bien "course à la richesse"). Donc "transcend TO" serait en fait différent de "transcend" ? Je crois que je comprends !


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## Itisi

Garoubet said:


> Je le traduirais par "se dépasser" ou "s'élever au niveau de".



L'idée de *Garoubet* paraît logique, et pourtant la phrase qui en résulte, pour moi en tout cas, n'a pas de sens... Une course à la richesse n'est pas plus 'élevée' qu'une discipline financière.  En fait, ni 'transcend' ni 'transcend to' n'ont de sens, et essayer de traduire ce verbe là ne mène nulle part... Je crois qu'on est _obligé_ d'oublier les mots que l'auteur a employés pour retrouver l'idée derrière... Vraiment, il ne nous facilite pas les choses !


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## Alladine

N'y a-t-il pas l'idée de "s'élever" quand on passe de la passivité de la "discipline financière" (on fait attention aux dépenses, on investit scrupuleusement dans son plan épargne retraite, etc.) à l'action de la "course à la richesse" (on prend des décisions beaucoup plus draconiennes comme larguer son travail de salarié, etc.) ? C'est comme ça que je comprends la phrase de l'auteur en tout cas...


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## Uncle Bob

It is "transcend to any..." so the "any" rules out something to which it must rise. I can only think that the "to" is one of Mr De Marco's added extras and shouldn't be there (_...dépasser tout course à la richesse_")

(I can only imagine Mr.d.M. made his wealth because people gave up trying to read his contracts!)


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## Itisi

doit changer de registre pour s'appliquer à une campagne pour s'enrichir.

Edited


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## Alladine

@Uncle Bob: So is this "_to_" after _transcend_ a mistake? Would that sentence mean that however rich you want to become, you always need to have financial discipline (which makes sense too!)?


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## Itisi

Sorry I'm not *Uncle Bob* , mais je pense que 'dépasser toute course à la richesse' ne va pas... D'après le contexte du lien, la discipline doit s'appliquer au niveau de la 'wealth campaign'. Je disais que 'transcend to' ne se dit pas, mais je vois quelques exemples de 'transcend to the next level'...(ah, ces américains...), et j'ai l'impression de peut-être voir mieux ce que l'auteur veut dire, et ce que *Garoubet* voulait dire, aussi... 

Désolée de contredire tout le monde, là, je ne considère personne comme un adversaire à pourfendre, je vous assure...


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## Alladine

Merci pour ton aide Itisi, mais que dis-tu de mon post 8 ? Ça donnerait ceci :

_Si les bons de réduction et autres stratégies de la Voie lente ne sont pas inutiles dans un plan, elles ne devraient pas constituer le plan. Ce qui est un problème, c'est la Voie lente comme plan global, et non pas que la Voie lente fasse partie du plan. Cette distinction est fondamentale parce que la discipline financière doit s'élever au niveau d'une course à la richesse._


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## Itisi

*Alladine*, ce que tu dis à #8 me paraît tout à fait plausible mais, comme je le disais à #7, je ne suis pas convaincue que 's'élever au niveau d'une course à la richesse' fasse sens.  (Je suis d'accord avec moi-même à #10, faute de quelque chose qui me convainque mieux...)  (Je n'aime pas trop 'course à la richesse' non plus, mais ce n'est pas ma décision...)


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## Uncle Bob

Unlike *itisi *I read it as saying "financial discipline" should go or reach beyond some money-making project (assuming that is what a "wealth campaign" is). I agree that even for that _...dépasser tout course à la richesse_ leaves much room for improvement.


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## Itisi

*Uncle Bob*, I kind of understand the opposite!

I like 'money-making project'...


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## Alladine

Aïe aïe aïe ! 

I understand what Uncle Bob understands... And when someone has "money-making projects", he is always impatient to see results, hence the "course à la richesse" which appealed to me.


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## Itisi

I think perhaps you misunderstand what Uncle Bob understands, then!  He understands that fin disc should transcend money-making, that is, leave it behind, whereas _you_ understand - if I understand you correctly - that fin disc should transcend* to* a wealth campaign. That is different, the opposite, even... And so, I disagree that we (you and I) disagree!  Sorry to disagree again!

Sleep well!


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## Alladine

Luckily I've seen your post after sleeping Itisi .
I have contacted the author directly. Hoping I will have an answer soon - which I will give you all of course.


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## Itisi

Yes, it would be great to hear what he says.  And let's hope we can understand his answer!


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## Alladine




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## Nicomon

Alladine said:


> he is always impatient to see results, hence the "course à la richesse"


 Est-ce qu'on peut faire quelque chose avec  _appât du gain ?   _Suggéré sans conviction...


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## Itisi

A mon avis, déjà avec 'course à la richesse' on s'éloigne du sens de 'wealth campaign', qui est une expression factuelle, qui ne décrit pas, qui ne dit pas qu'on est impatient ou autre chose, mais avec 'appât du gain', on s'éloigne encore plus, parce qu'il y a nettement une notion de jugement moral...

(Pour revenir à 'course à la richesse', on ne traduirait pas 'campagne présidentielle' par 'course à la présidence', ce n'est pas le même sens. (Et si on me dit que 'run for presidency' = 'course à la présidence', je dirais, non, c'est un contresens, ça veut dire 'briguer la présidence')

*Edit* - campaign = projet


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## Nicomon

Admettons que... j'ai perdu une occasion de me taire.   C'est "impatient to see results" (que j'ai cité) qui m'y a fait penser.
Encore heureux que j'aie écrit : suggéré sans conviction.._. _


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## Itisi

J'espère que tu me pardonneras...


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## Nicomon

Bien sûr que je te pardonne.    Le   se voulait de l'autodérision.

Mais je pardonne pas à DeMarco d'écrire des trucs aussi incompréhensibles.


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## Itisi

...Et dictés par l'appât du gain !


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## nodnol

Ce concept doit être radicalement élargi /cette principe /cette manière d'agir doit être radicalement étendue pour s'appliquer à/devenir partie intégrale de tout projet de s'acquérir une fortune. Se fournir un patrimoine.

So I agree with itisi in post #3. Once again I think people didn't pay enough attention to context. "The Millionaire Fastlane" the title alone strongly suggests this belongs to the genre of books which generally say something very simplistic but say it in a vivid language designed to get people fired up and motivated. Does it sound reasonable to declare that there is such a thing as a millionaire fastlane? It isn't meant to look reasonable its meant to get people fired up.

Given that context, how reasonable should the choice of the word 'transcend' be? When what an author is advocating seems like penny pinching, miserliness and being a wage slave, if their purpose to get readers excited about those things, it is probably not a good strategy to speak in plain, lucid language. (My concession was to add in the rather meaningless  'radicalement').
PS
In other words
"Transcend to= spread to, cross over to."

But since it spread, it crosses conceptual limits, and the most grandiose, dynamic and dramatic way of saying that is, it transcends limits.

The phrase is 'bad' by general standards because it is nonsense to say, _financial discipline must _*transcend to*/spread to. Financial discipline isn't an agent. "Financial discipline must be applied to." It is bad in any other context, but it is carefully chosen to suit this American/'global' readership and this context.

PPS (I could have made of simpler if i had said, the everyday term for this is, language which is "attention-grabbing". " Transcend " is attention grabbing, "radicalement" is attention-grabbing. I have toned down the effect but not lost it.)

 #3 and #10 seem a bit too plain and matter of fact, I don't think they have enough immediacy.


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## Itisi

nodnol said:


> Ce concept doit être radicalement élargi /ce principe /cette manière d'agir doit être radicalement étendue pour s'appliquer à/devenir partie intégrale de tout projet de s'acquérir une fortune.


Voilà, pas besoin d'attendre l'explication de l'auteur ! (Non, c'est vrai !)


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## broglet

Warning! The expression "transcend to" is not part of the English language and any use of it is doomed to be incomprehensible.


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## balzar

Of course "transcend to" Is absolutely meaningless


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## Garoubet

Interestingly enough, only one native AE answered this post, Kelly. I understand that "transcend to" is not common in UK, but it's used in AE, mostly on the West coast.  
Here is a discussion around this concept that'll give some more context to the word. https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-transcend-reality-to-a-higher-plane-of-reality


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## Uncle Bob

The title of the link is "transcend something to..." which is fine in BE, the problem is that transcend is a transitive verb so you can't just transcend.
(The contents of the link are short bits by different people some of whom transcend something and others who just transcend.)


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## Garoubet

I understand that the sentence is not gramatically correct; the link was proposed to explain the idea behind the word because I wasn't  sure to understand the points discussed here since I'm quite used to hear "transcend to". 
I've been to the US west coast for business meetings and events for years. I've seen some increase of verbal bluster and bombast over the years and the raise of the usage of  "transcend to". It's a sort of buzzword in some business circles.  You don't just do better or more, you need to transcend to another level of achievement.


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## broglet

Garoubet said:


> You don't just do better or more, you need to transcend to another level of achievement.


Now that's a horrible business-speak possibility that did not occur to me. It is being used as an alternative to "ascend" with some implication that you are climbing over things - which are probably other people


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## Nicomon

How would you  understand / translate "transcend to" in this example, which seems similar ?


> “So, having the drive to discover the next big technology is crucial to being successful – and this can *transcend to any* business in any sector.”


   How about these? 





> - Dr. Dubroy explains personality traits that *transcend to any *profession.
> - Level 7 individuals can operate at any Level, they can *transcend to any* of the lower levels at will to relate and work with others.


  Right or wrong (probably the latter, again ) I understand something like « _(se)_ _transposer _», or a synonym of it.
The last example certainly doesn't mean _s'élever / dépasser.  _Those all sound (to me) closer to _transfer / transferable.   _

I agree with this : 





nodnol said:


> "Transcend to= spread to, cross over to."


_
_


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## Itisi

*Nico*, right !  

Your examples seem to make it clear that there isn't actually the idea of reaching a higher level, only one of translating/adapting to something else, which takes a lot of the angst out of translating , haha, our sentence...  (Really, it's pointless to use 'transcend' when you don't mean what the word means!) 

I agree with *Uncle Bob* that *Garoubet*'s link is about the 'normal' transitive BE use of 'transcend'

*1. * To pass beyond the limits of (a category or conception, for instance): "our desire to ... find love, recognition and acceptance that transcends stereotype, class, age, poverty and physical imperfection" (Catherine Orenstein).
*2. * To be greater than, as in quality or intensity; surpass: a new film that transcends all her previous efforts.
*3. * To exist above and independent of (material experience or the universe): "One never can see the thing in itself, because the mind does not transcend phenomena" (Hilaire Belloc).


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## Uncle Bob

For your two examples, *Nicomon*, I would, if have understood them correctly, use "extrapolate".


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## Itisi

Ah, yes, or 'to extend'...


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## Nicomon

Thanks to both of you, Itsi and Uncle Bob.  I never thought of_ extrapolate / extend.  _

I understood the Dr. Dubroy example as "transferable qualities / skills".


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## nodnol

"Now that's a horrible business-speak possibility that did not occur to me. " post  #35.

Yes, but what is the excuse for it not occurring to you? The title of the book was given for all to research. "Brash" and "unconventional" are among the _positive _terms Amazon reviewers have used for this author. Expectations of conventional 'good English ' ignored the context, that you would not expect much deference from this author towards authorities on the correct use of language. author . Posts #31 and #30, an equivalent would be saying, 'when an athlete says "I am hoping to medal" it has no meaning.' On whose behalf are you speaking?

in Post #34 we hear from someone who is, so to speak, at the cutting edge, where new uses of language are being forged and established -- uses which may or may not become significant enough to be included in dictionaries, and surely will never be respectable enough to be recommended by general reference works on how to write good English. But Amazon reviews are where you should look to see whether people think the language of this book is suitable for its purpose. It is for the target audience and for peers to judge.

---

In the examples we have seen, transcend to may mean rise to, or it may mean spread to or cross over to (there was a transcend _down _in Post #36), and it is used in preference to more widely accepted language by writers or speakers wishing to use attention grabbing language in the context of addressing a business audience and trying to sound 'dynamic ', trendy or for distancing effect etc and such language innovation/"misuse " of language is nothing new.


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## Alladine

Garoubet said:


> "transcend to". It's a sort of buzzword in some business circles. You don't just do better or more, you need to transcend to another level of achievement.


 YES Garoubet!
{New uses}





nodnol said:


> surely will never be respectable enough to be recommended by general reference works on how to write good English. But Amazon reviews are where you should look to see whether people think the language of this book is suitable for its purpose.


 YES Nodnol.
We can understand that the author has his reasons for trying to make new uses of American expressions, even though they don't always appear fluid to us readers.
The good thing is he has already replied to me in an email explaining what he meant by that. Here is his answer:

_Other meanings: 
This distinction is critical because financial discipline must *be considered for* any wealth campaign.
This distinction is critical because financial discipline *is integral* to any wealth campaign._
 Dur métier parfois que celui de traducteur !...


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## Itisi

Alors ça correspond à ce que je disais à #3 !


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