# Arabic "دنيا" ("dunya") vs. Macedonian "dunja"



## Homer MakeDonski

*Moderator note:*
*Split from here.*

Hi to all of you
I am Goce Janevski 41 and I found you thankfully to uncle Google search.
Been a while since I started my researches over the meaning of name of Macedonia or as I am splitting it Mace / Donia.
A friend of mine has pointed me Arabic words hayat a dunya and here I am,reading all of yours explanation meanings of Dunya 
In our Macedonian language we have :
Dunia or Dunja meaning the World 

Dunja f (arch. ) World *1*

As many of linguistically amateurs like me so do I am wondering what the possible origin of dunya could be ?
Could you maybe write me what do you think over the possible origin of dunya at Arabic ?
or how it come that we have dunia meaning all you nicely has explained.
Regards from Macedonia to all of you here 

Goce Janevski
aka
Homer MakeDonski 
_________________________
Ref: 
*1*-Todor Dimitrovski, Blagoja Korubin Trajko Stamatoski" Dictionary of the Macedonian language with Serbo-Croatian interpretations I ", Skopje 1961, p. 158 
Regards


----------



## origumi

The name Macedonia / Makednoi was used already in the 5th century BC [Herodotos]. When and where could Arabic have influence on this name?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)#Etymology

---

Or actually by Hesiodos, few hundreds years earlier.


----------



## vandaman

Dunja in Macedonian (Slavonic) is a Turkish loanword with Arabic origin. It is used wor the world and and the quince (cydonia oblonga)


----------



## ancalimon

I know it's very unprofessional and unlikely related, but "dünya" sounds very similar to "dönüyo" (and similar in other dialects) (English translation: it is spinning, turning) in Turkish.
Search for the Sufism as it contains within itself this concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

The other words used for Earth in Turkish are: Arz, Yer Yüzü (face of Earth, ground: according to ancient Turkic philosophy, ground was the face of Earth, and there were different places on Earth that were different parts of it. Like breasts of the world, belly of the world, etc...), yurt: (as in my country is all the world)

other Turkic words I think that might be related in concept:

GÜN, KÜN: (day, morning, sun, sunlight, the time that passes after a full turning of Earth) BUGÜN: (today, current age) DÜN: (yesterday)   güneş: (sun)   günaydın: (good morning: the day,morning is bright) DOĞU: (East, eastern: birth, it is giving birth), ÖRT: (to cover (as in mountains and oceans cover Earth)) ÖR: to spin, to weave, to lay, etc http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=%C3%B6rmek , ÖRTÜ: something that covers another thing., AN: A moment

We also use the pronouncement of English word "day" in sentences like: Güneş ufka değdi (deydi, tegdi) ; meaning: "The sun have touched the horizon."

The "IA" part is common through out the world. In Turkic languages, we call it "ÖYÜ", Persians called it "IA".

Just trying to help you in your research.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


Homer MakeDonski said:


> the meaning of name of Macedonia or as I am splitting it Mace / Donia.


Alas, I cannot help you with this query, but I do have a question, which arises from my ignorance. You write that you split up the word Macedonia into mace + donia. What would be the reason for doing so?

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## sokol

Here's the etymology suggested by etymonline:



> *Macedonia*
> from L. Macedonius "Macedonian," from Gk. Makedones, lit. "highlanders" or "the tall ones," related to makednos "long, tall," makros "long, large" (see macro-).



Possibly some linguists prefer other theories, but etymonline usually is a good and trustworthy source; however, your suggestion, Homer, is pure folk etymology.


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

Thanks for all your participation.
Regarding the name of Macedonia origin and meaning possibilities, It will be better if we open new separated topic.

Dear Origumi 
Could you please tell us how at your native language will say "the World" or Earth.
Does it have any dunya connections?



origumi said:


> The name Macedonia / Makednoi was used already in the 5th century BC [Herodotos]. When and where could Arabic have influence on this name?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)#Etymology
> 
> ---
> 
> Or actually by Hesiodos, few hundreds years earlier.


 
Dear Vandaman
Please do not get me wrong.
What for that necessity for writing Macedonian (Slavonic)
is there any other Macedonian language at the world?



vandaman said:


> Dunja in Macedonian (Slavonic) is a Turkish loanword with Arabic origin. It is used wor the world and and the quince (cydonia oblonga)


 
Thanks dear Ancalimon 
Turkish words used for Earth is something new to me .



ancalimon said:


> I know it's very unprofessional and unlikely related, but "dünya" sounds very similar to "dönüyo" (and similar in other dialects) (English translation: it is spinning, turning) in Turkish.
> Search for the Sufism as it contains within itself this concept.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism
> 
> The other words used for Earth in Turkish are: Arz, Yer Yüzü (face of Earth, ground: according to ancient Turkic philosophy, ground was the face of Earth, and there were different places on Earth that were different parts of it. Like breasts of the world, belly of the world, etc...), yurt: (as in my country is all the world)
> 
> other Turkic words I think that might be related in concept:
> 
> GÜN, KÜN: (day, morning, sun, sunlight, the time that passes after a full turning of Earth) BUGÜN: (today, current age) DÜN: (yesterday) güneş: (sun) günaydın: (good morning: the day,morning is bright) DOĞU: (East, eastern: birth, it is giving birth), ÖRT: (to cover (as in mountains and oceans cover Earth)) ÖR: to spin, to weave, to lay, etc http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=örmek , ÖRTÜ: something that covers another thing., AN: A moment
> 
> We also use the pronouncement of English word "day" in sentences like: Güneş ufka değdi (deydi, tegdi) ; meaning: "The sun have touched the horizon."
> 
> The "IA" part is common through out the world. In Turkic languages, we call it "ÖYÜ", Persians called it "IA".
> 
> Just trying to help you in your research.


 
Hi Frank 
Searching the answers make me have the name itself as my biggest source.
There are some Macedonian authors what has write theirs opinions over name meaning at the way that Macedonia means Mother ,and thus I have got Make=Mother .
Regards to you as well



Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Alas, I cannot help you with this query, but I do have a question, which arises from my ignorance. You write that you split up the word Macedonia into mace + donia. What would be the reason for doing so?
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


 
About this Arabic "دنيا" ("dunya") vs. Macedonian "dunja" situation .

When I have compare Macedonian name trough its possible meaning
with Hindi languages,these was result I have got .

At the Google translate site I have choose English to Hindi translate 
http://translate.google.com/#en%7Chi%7C ... ther%0A%0A
and typed these : World of Mother 
What I've got is word 
माँ की दुनिया
and its roman variant written as 
Mām̐ kī duniyā
When I press the sound bottom for hearing of translation I have been amazed with what I have heard 

Almost the very same pronounce as we do have 
Makedonija with a hard k.


My apologies for my English .I know that is fare for been good.


----------



## berndf

Homer MakeDonski said:


> Dear Vandaman
> Please do not get me wrong.
> What for that necessity    for writing  Macedonian (Slavonic)
> is there any other Macedonian language at the world?


For this discussion, it is important to distinguish modern Macedonian from the ancient Macedonian language which was not a Slavic language.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


Homer MakeDonski said:


> When I have compare Macedonian name trough its possible meaning with Hindi languages,these was result I have got .


Comparing 'donia' with formally similar words from the 6400+ other languages than the ones already mentioned here, is an exercise in tedious futility. You'll probably find 100s of donia-like words in 100s of other languages.

Wouldn't it be a bit better to first explain what your objections are against the etymology mentioned by Sokol (and which is so far the most plausible one, though not 100% sure). 


> *Macedonia*
> from L. Macedonius "Macedonian," from Gk. Makedones, lit. "highlanders" or "the tall ones," related to makednos "long, tall," makros "long, large" (see macro-).


Not glorious enough? Not Macedonian enough? Not fanciful enough? Too Greek?



Frank


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

Frank comparative methodology and Greek arguments of Macedonians name as offspring of "makednos" with meaning of: 
-long 
-tall 
-highlander 
compare with Hindi language 
Translation 
http://translate.google.com/#en|hi|long%2C%20tall%2C%20highlander%0A%0A 


Translate from:	English 
Translate into:	Hindi 
type: tall,long, highlander 

English to Hindi translation 
लंबे, लंबा, ज़मींदार 
Lambē, lambā, zamīndāra 
Contribute a better translation: 

as result will provide nothing
 not a single similarity neither coincidence 

Just wondering why ?



> an exercise in tedious futility



I like this one


----------



## Frank06

Homer MakeDonski said:


> Frank comparative methodology and Greek arguments of Macedonians name as offspring of "makednos" with meaning of:
> -long
> -tall
> -highlander
> compare with Hindi language
> Translation
> http://translate.google.com/#en|hi|long%2C%20tall%2C%20highlander%0A%0A
> [snipped]
> not a single similarity neither coincidence
> 
> Just wondering why ?


What do you mean by this?



> I like this one


That's possible, and I wish you a lot of fun. 
But EHL is not the place for this. Please read the rules.


> *15. Novelty theories*
> 
> This forum deals with (firmly) established historical linguistic peer reviewed theories.
> EHL is not a venue to launch or expand on private pet theories, pseudo-linguistic ponderings, idiosyncratic and fringe ideas. This also includes theories based upon random lists of similarly looking words, chance coincidences, wild speculations or associations and other pseudo-linguistic and pre-scientific methods.


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

berndf said:


> For this discussion, it is important to distinguish modern Macedonian from the ancient Macedonian language which was not a Slavic language.




If you would like   to guidance Macedonian language as part of Slavic  linguistic  group  than thanks because at the present Macedonian is classified at pointed linguistic group , but if you are about to claim Macedonians as   ethnic so called  Slavs I have to remind you that Slavs is linguistics category only and  Slavic migration theory will always remind as theory
Yet, Is there any other Macedonian language ?
And why a kind of distinguishing between language of Macedonians living at the present with theirs ancestors from the past?
What does all of us know about language of ancient times Macedonians?
As far as I know it is  nothing recorded situation


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

What did  I  thought  when I wrote 
"I like this one" as comment to your words "an exercise in tedious futility"
I have found myself at it 
I am  offending nobody for all mine about 10 years net discussions   experience .
My  apologies for any inconvenience


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

Comparative method is the one what I am keeping with at my researches. 


> *[Quote removed, too long. We'd like to urge you to read the rules one more time, very carefully. Please!*
> *Frank, moderator EHL]*
> 
> *2. Quoted material*
> 
> No web pages or copyrighted content may be inserted into WordReference posts except as indicated below. Minor fair use excerpts from dictionaries such as a definition/translation or two are permitted. Quotes and translations of texts up to 4 sentences are permitted. Links to content elsewhere are acceptable and appropriate, provided such links meet the requirements stated elsewhere in these rules.
> All forms of inserted content that do not meet these conditions will be removed without exception.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method#cite_note-64




> 15. Novelty theories
> This forum deals with (firmly) established historical linguistic peer reviewed theories.
> EHL is not a venue to launch or expand on private pet theories, pseudo-linguistic ponderings, idiosyncratic and fringe ideas. This also includes theories based upon random lists of similarly looking words, chance coincidences, wild speculations or associations and other pseudo-linguistic and pre-scientific methods.
> Novelty theories on the perceived relations between two languages (let's say Sumerian and Japanese), on the 'First' or 'Original language' (let's say Hebrew) or similar(ly) idiosyncratic theories, folk-etymologies etc. are outside the scope of this forum.
> These include pseudo-scientific authors as Isaac Mozeson, Edo Nyland, Zoltan Simon, Barry Fell, Joan Leaf, Polat Kaya, and, alas, many many many more.


----------



## Frank06

Homer MakeDonski said:


> Yet, Is there any other Macedonian language?


Macedonian: modern Slavic language.
Macedonian: Ancient Macedonian was the Indo-European language or Greek dialect of the ancient Macedonians.


Homer MakeDonski said:


> As far as I know it is nothing recorded situation





> [Wikipedia] Knowledge of the language [Ancient Macedonian] is very limited, there being only a few fragmentary surviving attestations, mainly in glosses and proper names. The volume of the surviving public and private inscriptions indicate that there was no written language in ancient Macedonia but Greek.


Limited doesn't equal "nothing".



Homer MakeDonski said:


> What did I thought when I wrote
> "I like this one" as comment to your words "an exercise in tedious futility"
> I have found myself at it
> I am offending nobody for all mine about 10 years net discussions experience .
> My apologies for any inconvenience


No no, my question was not about the exercise in tedious futility. 

I was wondering what you meant by the lines quoted below:


Homer MakeDonski said:


> Frank comparative methodology and Greek arguments of Macedonians name as offspring of "makednos" with meaning of:
> -long
> -tall
> -highlander
> compare with Hindi language
> Translation
> http://translate.google.com/#en|hi|long%2C%20tall%2C%20highlander%0A%0A
> [snipped]
> not a single similarity neither coincidence


 

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

Frank


> Knowledge of the language [Ancient Macedonian] is very limited, there being only a few fragmentary surviving attestations, mainly in glosses and proper names. The volume of the surviving public and private inscriptions indicate that there was no written language in ancient Macedonia but Greek.


Is this enough to claim that language of old times Macedonians was Greek or Greek dialect?
Where is its grammar? 

Greeks will claim Koine as ancient Greek dialect too.
So fare I have reach one Koine word only.Thats word lamb



> βάννε /'vannε/ ("lamb" for standard Greek αρνί) (cf. Cretan ϝαρήν).




changes of *V -J* onto presen day Macedonian 
eg.
*V*aglen -*J*aglen = Coal
*v*azhe-*j*azhe = rope
*v*azol-*j*azol=knot 

Let's see Koine word 

*β*άννε /'*v*annε/  
and change the first  letters 
*β/v* -*J *
βάννε /'vannε/  
*J*avve or *j*anne  or  jagne =lamb

todays Greek  language will state *αρνί*=lamb

todays Macedonian will state *jagne* =lamb 
janne as very close to present Bosnians dialectical *jannje or
janje= lamb


----------



## Frank06

Homer MakeDonski said:


> Is this enough to claim that language of old times Macedonians was Greek or Greek dialect?


To start with, it's more than your previous claim ("As far as I know it is nothing recorded situation").
I must add -- and my apologies if this would sound bad -- that I don't always understand what you mean. English is obviously not my native language either, but could you please _try_ to express yourself in a clearer way.



> Where is its grammar?


If you're looking for syntactic issues, then we'd beter stop. Glosses, names and words don't really give rise to incredible syntactic revelations. 
If you're looking for examples of phonological and morphological features, then please read the Wikipedia article again and have a look at the external links.



> Greeks will claim Koine as ancient Greek dialect too.


I hope that you connect this side note about Koine Greek with a discussion on Macedonian and -donian. Koine Greek, by definition is the "common Greek (or ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, the common dialect) [..] the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300)" 


> So fare I have reach one Koine word only.Thats word lamb


What do you mean by this? Where? In modern days Macedonian?

Besides, I do hope that we can bring this thread back to the original topic!

F


----------



## Homer MakeDonski

> I was wondering what you meant by the lines quoted below:
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Homer MakeDonski
> Frank comparative methodology and Greek arguments of Macedonians name as offspring of "makednos" with meaning of:
> -long
> -tall
> -highlander
> compare with Hindi language
> Translation
> http://translate.google.com/#en|hi|long, tall, highlander
> 
> 
> [snipped]
> not a single similarity neither coincidence


I was trying to say that according to comparative methodology meanings of word makednos (tall,long, highlander ) does not matched with any Hindi words .As they does not matching nothing(words or meanings) of  any surrounded to the Greeks languages.
As I believe final  results of comparative must to be  words  equalization  balancing similarity or meaning,what is called influence from one language to another. Or Greek language in makednos case does not made any influence to any other language world wide.

Quote:
So fare I have reach one Koine word only.Thats word lamb


> What do you mean by this? Where? In modern days Macedonian?


In modern day Macedonian we are spelling jagne for lamb
at the past record is that we have Greek  letters orthography as vanne
Between the past and the present we have letters deviations case 
from v to j 


> Koine Greek, by definition is the "common Greek (or ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, the common dialect) [..] the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300)"


Unfortunately definitions are  biggest Greek contributions to the modern World.
I will do my best to express my self as much as I can.
And yes lets us keep topic title 
please do what need to be done over it.

 Groetjes Поздрав
 to you


----------



## berndf

Homer MakeDonski said:


> If you would like   to guidance Macedonian language as part of Slavic  linguistic  group  than thanks because at the present Macedonian is classified at pointed linguistic group , but if you are about to claim Macedonians as   ethnic so called  Slavs I have to remind you that Slavs is linguistics category only and  Slavic migration theory will always remind as theory
> Yet, Is there any other Macedonian language ?
> And why a kind of distinguishing between language of Macedonians living at the present with theirs ancestors from the past?
> What does all of us know about language of ancient times Macedonians?
> As far as I know it is  nothing recorded situation


Sure, we know little about ancient Macedonian. But what we know is that there is no trace of Slavic languages in the entire region (Southern Balkans) before the Byzantine period. Whatever uncertainty might be associated with the hypothesis that Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect, your counter-hypothesis that it was a Slavic language like Modern Macedonian is grossly implausible.

So, if you refuse to explore the theory of a Greek origin of the name because you think the evidence we have is not certain enough, then you should reject any idea of reconstructing the origin of the name from Modern Macedonian even more adamantly.


----------



## Frank06

Homer MakeDonski said:


> I was trying to say that *according to comparative methodology *meanings of word makednos (tall,long, highlander ) does not matched with any Hindi words .As they does not matching nothing(words or meanings) of any surrounded to the Greeks languages.


Let's see if I understood well.
You took the word "makednos", and (or?) the words 'tall, highlander' etc. You then used *Google translate* and finally you looked for matches in Hindi?? And that's your comparative method?


> As I believe final results of comparative must to be words equalization balancing similarity or meaning,what is called influence from one language to another.


What do you mean by this?


> Or Greek language in makednos case does not made any influence to any other language world wide.


If the etymology mentioned by Sokol in a previous post is indeed to be accepted, then try looking for PIE mâk-, Greek mak(+ro)- and Sanskrit maha. But not, please, I beg you, not with Google translate.


> In modern day Macedonian we are spelling jagne for lamb
> at the past record is that we have Greek letters orthography as vanne
> Between the past and the present we have letters deviations case
> from v to j


I have no idea about Modern (Slavonic) Macedonian (which is not the same as Ancient Macedonian, a language/dialect closely related to Ancient Greek). I'd be highly surprised that there is only one loan from Koine Greek in modern Macedonian, but, hey, why not.
Anyway, what would be the problem with only one loan?



> Unfortunately definitions are biggest Greek contributions to the modern World.


There is not a single _atom_, let alone _nucleus_ of something that resembles linguistic value in your explanations.

Frank


----------



## Frank06

*Hi,*

*We recently got a few posts in EHL, which are, to put it mildly, a bit unsettling in the context of EHL. We do apologise for these recent threads and posts.*

*Once in a while, we let this kind of threads linger on, because all in all it can be an opportunity to write a bit more about the generally accepted methods used in historical linguistics. *

*However, we have our limits too.*

*We'd like to remind all participants that EHL is not a venue for ideosyncratic theories, nor for a random collection of fringe statements which present themselves as some sort of theory.*

*We do welcome everybody in EHL, we do welcome every question (well, almost every question). **We do not expect people who ask the original questions or participate in the discussions to have a PhD in historical linguistics.*

*But we do ask from the participants, by which I mean members who answer the questions or participate in the discussions following the original question, to have at least a basic understanding of the basic notions of basic historical comparative linguistics. *
*All in all, that's not much different from e.g. the Italiano-Français forum, where participants are expected to have at least a basic knowledge of either Italian or French.*

*As a general reminder, the **rules** of EHL can be found here (see also quote below). *
*The rules, and especially rule 14 to 16 present the context, the boundaries of EHL. Future participants either accept those rules and post, or don't accept them and don't post.*

*Before closing this thread, we'd like to add a few basic links from Wikipedia, which present excellent introductory information on historical linguistics and its methods.*
*- **historical linguistics*
*- **etymology*
*- **comparative method*
*- **internal reconstruction*

*Needless to say that the links in the articles provide more valuable, introductory information.*

*We'd also like to link once again to D. Ringe's paper "**On calculating the factor of chance in language comparison**" and Rosenfelder's texts "**Deriving Proto-World with tools you probably have at home**" and "**How likely are chance resemblances between languages?**". *


*To summarise the point of this moderator's note: this thread is closed.*

*Frank*
*Moderator EHL*



*PS:*


> *RULES FOR THE EHL FORUM*
> 
> 
> 
> *14. Acknowledge the source*
> 
> Try to back up your explanations with sound arguments based on accepted methods used in mainstream linguistics. Mention your source(s) when asked for.
> When you make an educated guess, please clearly indicate as such.
> *15. Novelty theories*
> 
> *This forum deals with (firmly) established historical linguistic peer reviewed theories. *
> *EHL is not a venue to launch or expand on private pet theories, pseudo-linguistic ponderings, idiosyncratic and fringe ideas. This also includes theories based upon random lists of similarly looking words, chance coincidences, wild speculations or associations and other pseudo-linguistic and pre-scientific methods. *
> *Novelty theories on the perceived relations between two languages (let's say Sumerian and Japanese), on the 'First' or 'Original language' (let's say Hebrew) or similar(ly) idiosyncratic theories, folk-etymologies etc. are outside the scope of this forum. *
> *These include pseudo-scientific authors as Isaac Mozeson, Edo Nyland, Zoltan Simon, Barry Fell, Joan Leaf, Polat Kaya, and, alas, many many many more. *
> *16. Politics*
> 
> WR and EHL are forums which deal with linguistics, not with politics. We do not allow political sneers or merely politically motivated statements, theories etc. disguised as linguistic theories.


----------

