# Old Russian: сокачий (cook)



## AndrasBP

Hello,

According to my Hungarian etymology dictionary, the common Hungarian noun "*szakács */'sɒka:ʧ/" (cook) is a loanword from Old Russian or Old Slavonic "*сокачий*", which might be of Turkic origin. This word is not used in modern Russian, as far as I know.

I've googled "сокачий" and most hits are from the website of a restaurant in Russia with this word as its name.
There are also a number of hits which refer to the same source from the 12th century. There's not much else I found.

Do you have any other information or sources about the origin of this word?


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## MiguelitOOO

1879. Alexandre de Cihac (he calls these words "Éléments Slave"):

 

1865.  Franz von Miklošič:
 

1899. Ivan Verkhratskyĭ:


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## Awwal12

In Old Russian the word certainly appears already in the XI century, in a variety of forms (сокачиiа, сокачии, сокачь). "Kitchen", on the other hand, is сокалъкъ, сокальница, сокало. Looking at such forms I'd really suppose a Turkic origin (original -cı and -lık look transparent). Sadly, I never read any proper etymological works on it; since it has no descendants in the modern East Slavic languages, it is absent in Vasmer's dictionary as well.


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## AndrasBP

Thank you for your replies.



MiguelitOOO said:


> 1879. Alexandre de Cihac (he calls these words "Éléments Slave"):


As far as I understand, the first dictionary entry is actually about the use of the Hungarian word in Transylvanian Romanian.



MiguelitOOO said:


> 1865. Franz von Miklošič:


Does the abbreviation "ostrog." refer to Ostrogothic? I'm not sure what to make of it.

Unfortunately, none of the entries explain the possible Turkic origin of the Old Slavic word. Perhaps it cannot be reconstructed because the Turkic root has not survived in any living Turkic languages or older written sources.


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## MiguelitOOO

I can´t read russian or turkish and that makes me incapable to find these etymologies.
I don't know how _сокачий _sounds. *Does "сока" sound similar to "khanā"*?


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## Torontal

i don't know any known etymology for it, the only remotely similar Turkic word i found is maybe the word _sa:lçı_ which is attested only once in the 11th century Kashgari's Diwan Lughat at-Turk where it is said:

_"Cook" in its root meaning. Then a kitchen knife is called "sa:lçı biçe:k"._

There is no other attestation of it and there is no appropriate known root word from where it could derive according to Clauson.

So this word has its own questions, and then i have no idea if the sound shift is possible, to arrive from sa:l* to sak/sok*


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## AndrasBP

MiguelitOOO said:


> I can´t read russian ...
> I don't know how _сокачий _sounds.


That took me by surprise. You can always use Google Translate (it has language recognition) to transliterate text written in a non-Latin script.
"_сокачий_" roughly sounds "socachiy" (using Spanish spelling).



MiguelitOOO said:


> *Does "сока" sound similar to "khanā"*?


No, not at all. (*сока *= soca)



Torontal said:


> So this word has its own questions


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## danielstan

AndrasBP said:


> As far as I understand, the first dictionary entry is actually about the use of the Hungarian word in Transylvanian Romanian.



Indeed, this word in regional in Romanian (Transylvania and its Northern part Maramaros). I did not hear it my entire life in any sentence (I live in Southern part of Romania, a.k.a Wallachia).
Other Romanian etymological dictionaries consider it a direct loanword from Hungarian and relate it as cognate to Slavic _сокачь _(' confer sl. _sokačĭ ' )_
dexonline


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## ahvalj

_Словарь русского языка XI–XVII вв. Выпуск 26 (снурб–спарывати) · 2002:_ 116 suggests that _сокачии/sokačьji _"butcher; cook" may have come from Turkic _*soqatčï_ "who slaughters cattle".


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## AndrasBP

ahvalj said:


> Turkic _*soqatčï_ "who slaughters cattle".


Do you know if there's any trace of this root in any Turkic language (from past or present)?


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## ahvalj

AndrasBP said:


> Do you know if there's any trace of this root in any Turkic language (from past or present)?


That's a completely obscure topic to me, so don't take the following too seriously. In _Starostin SA, Dybo AV, Mudrak OA · An etymological dictionary of Altaic languages: _1306 I have found a Proto-Turkic root _*sok-_ "to hit, to beat, to crush" (Turkish _sok-,_ Turkmen, Uyghur, Kirghiz, Kazakh, Noghay _soq-,_ Uzbek _sọq-_ etc.; cited e. g. here — Turkic etymology : Query result), homonymous to _*sok-_ "to pierce, to stick into" and _*sok-_ "to weave, to knit".


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## Torontal

it seems to be a good finding, again Clauson's An Etymological Dictionary of Pre-Thirteenth-Century Turkish mentions the sok-/suk- roots:
*sok-, suk-* Preliminary note. _Most modern NE, NC, SC, and NW languages distinguish between *sok-* 'to beat, crush, reduce to powder, forge (iron)', and the like with a Direct Object in the Acc., and *suk-* 'to insert, thrust (something into something else), with some connotation of force; to invite to enter, admit', and the like with a Direct Object in the Acc. and an Indirect one in in the Dat. In SE Türki Shaw, RS and Jarring all list *sok-* but only Shaw 125 *suk-*. In SW only *sok- (*Az. SOX-) exists; almost all its meanings belong to *suk-*, but some like '(of a snake) to bite; to injure, calumniate' in Osm. seem to belong to *sok-*. Kaş. treats both V.s in the same para.; in this and other early texts it is simply a matter of judgement which V. is involved._

I won't copy here the separate entries for the two roots, but in the entry for the *sok-* he also cites some early examples where as i see the verb's "crush" meaning could be used in relation to food preparation:
*sokğu tegirmen* 'a mill for crushing (grain)'
*bu otlar yumuşak sokup* 'crush these vegetables to a pulp'
And *er tu:z sokdı:* 'the man crushed salt'


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## AndrasBP

ahvalj said:


> _Словарь русского языка XI–XVII вв. Выпуск 26 (снурб–спарывати) · 2002:_ 116 suggests that _сокачии/sokačьji _"butcher; cook" may have come from Turkic _*soqatčï_ "who slaughters cattle".





ahvalj said:


> a Proto-Turkic root _*sok-_ "to hit, to beat, to crush"





Torontal said:


> *sok-* 'to beat, crush, reduce to powder, forge (iron)


I don't know if it was common in Turkic culture for the butcher and cook to be the same person, but if it was, the Turkic root *sok- could perhaps be linked to slaughtering animals in the same way as the English word "slaughter" is derived from "slay" = "schlagen" in German (to hit, to beat, to strike).


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## swintok

I don't have ready access to an etymological dictionary, but could the modern Slavic words associated with cutting (сік-, сок-, сек-) be cognates, especially given the possible Turkic connection to slaughtering, cutting, crushing, etc.? 

That having been said, for the Ukrainian _cокира _(axe), the etymology is possibly from Latin.

Сокира - Слово _сокира_ (біл._ сяке́ра_, рос._ секи́ра_ — «топір, бойова сокира», давньорус. секыра, сокыра, болг. _секи́ра_, серб. _сѐкира/sekira_, словен. _sekíra_, чеськ. _sеkуrа_, словац. _sеkеrа_, пол. _siekiera_, в.-луж. та н.-луж. _sеkеrа_) походить від прасл. _*sekyra_, що споріднене з лат. _secūris_ («сокира»), давн.в-нім. _sаgа, sëga_ («пилка»). При цьому не виключається можливість запозичення праслов'янського слова з латини: це унікальний випадок використання суфікса _-yr-_ для утворення назви знаряддя замість звичайного слов'янського _-dl-_.


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## ahvalj

The Slavic verbal root as present in the attested languages is _sěk- _(Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/sěťi - Wiktionary), with an etymologically long vowel. As far as I know, there is no verb _**sokati_ with this meaning. 
_
Sekyra~sokyra_ in Slavic is isolated because of its etymologically short vowel, and may either represent an ancient survivor or, indeed a loan, though the substitution of the Latin _-is_ with the Slavic *_-ā_ in an old loan would be unique. Otherwise, this could be a loan in both languages, coming eventually perhaps from the Middle East, compare the Akkadian _šukurru_ "spear" (Search Entry & Canaan in the Second Millennium B.C.E.).


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## ahvalj

To clarify the evidence:

the word in question is attested in Old Church Slavonic (10–11th centuries) and Old East Slavic (11–12 centuries) as _сокачии/sokačьji_ "cook; butcher" (cook: _Инѣмъ бо сокачиѩ, и благыѩ трапезы, и сокачиискаꙗ хѫдожьства, и хвалы…/Jiněmъ bo sokačьję, ji blagyję trapezy, ji sokačьjьskaja xǫdožьstva, ji xvaly…_; butcher: _Благо овьчѧ зъломъ сокачиꙗмъ отъдано закалаѥтъ сѧ/Blago ovьčę zъlomъ sokačьjamъ otъdano zakalajetъ sę_). In particular the above _сокачиискаꙗ хѫдожьства/sokačьjьskaja xǫdožьstva _means "culinary delights";
the form _сокачь/sokačь_ with the proper Slavic suffix is attested since the 12th century; the older form has the Turkic _-čьji;_
there were Old East Slavic words for "kitchen": _сокалъ/sokalъ_ and _сокалькъ/sokalьkъ, _also with non-native suffixes; especially the latter resembles the Turkic _**sokalïk _(cp. #3).
Concerning the Slavic etymology, a connection with _сокъ/sokъ_ "liquid; drink, juice; medicine; soup; sauce, dish with sauce" has been suggested. This doesn't explain the very rare Turkic-looking _-lьk- _though. As a compromise variant, the Turkic word that originally meant "butcher" may have contaminated with the Slavic word for "soup; sauce" and may have given rise to the primary Slavic meaning "cook".


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