# Do you still say "Good evening" after twelve midnight?



## Snappy_is_here

People say, "Good evening," when you greet someone in the evening.
  Do you still say, "Good evening," when you meet someone after twelve midnight and before dawn?

  In Japan, professional musicians and other entertainers always say, "Good morning," regardless of time. Is this the same in English-speaking countries?


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## DrKnowsAlot

Good morning can be said till about the afternoon.  There are no specific rules on the subject but typically it would be considered weird for someone to say "good morning" at night.  So I guess to sum it up, your answer is no.  We typically use the greeting that is appropriate for the time of day.


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## natkretep

I'm trying to rack my brains to think about what I'd say if I met someone at say 4 am. It would depend on the circumstances. I think if we were at the airport to catch an early flight, I'd say 'Good morning'.

The St Andrew's Ball here with Scottish country dancing finishes about that time. After our Auld Lang Syne, I don't think the band says 'Good morning', but I think it would be _possible_ for them to say so.

The distinction might be whether it's soon after midnight, or closer to dawn, I suppose.


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## fsabroso

Hi:

I work at a hospital and when people greet someone after midnight, let's say around 2:00 or 3:00 AM. they say "good morning"


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## Cagey

Thank you, fsabroso; it is interesting to hear what is said by people who use this regularly.

Here is a thread in which the question is discussed in great detail: Good Morning / Afternoon / Evening / Night.


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## Hitchhiker

In South Africa it's fairly common to hear, "Good morning" right after midnight. The nights are short and daylight hours are long in South Africa. In America it's evening or night until sunrise or until you've gone to bed and morning after you wake in the morning. So in America you wouldn't normally say, "Good morning" until after you've slept. Then you can say, "Good morning" before sunrise.


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## Astropolyp

I often greet hundreds of people during my six-to-six night shifts. Usually, I hear _good evening_ until about two o'clock, and _good morning_ afterwards.


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## Topsie

I've never really given it much thought! I suppose I'd just say "Hello"!


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## Snappy_is_here

Thank you everyone.

I wrote: In Japan, professional musicians and other entertainers always say, "Good morning," regardless of time.

I wanted to say that here in Japan, they say, "Good morning" regardless of time when they meet each other, and not to the audience.


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## Snappy_is_here

fsabroso said:


> Hi:
> 
> I work at a hospital and when people greet someone after midnight, let's say around 2:00 or 3:00 AM. they say "good morning"



In fact, it must be a "bad morning to you and the patient." (Just a cheap joke. Don't take this serious.)

Anyway, thank you for your information.
You are doing something worth while and meaningful for people's health.


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## fsabroso

Snappy_is_here said:


> In fact, it must be a "bad morning to you and the patient." (Just a cheap joke. Don't take this serious.)
> bad, if they wake me up
> 
> Anyway, thank you for your information.
> You are doing something worth while and meaningful for people's health.



Thank you!


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## foxfirebrand

I once worked swing shift (3 to 11PM), and there are bars and eateries that people who work those hours single out to patronize.  If you go to a general-population bar, the day people are hitting their stride just as you're getting going-- and starting to crash just as you're hitting your stride.  So factory workers are often separated by shift in their leisure time, as well as at work.

Anyway, in a bar whose clientele is dominated by swing-shifters, "good evening" at midnight would be only natural, and very common.


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## Sk8ergirl3898

'Good morning' would be used.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Snappy_is_here said:


> The day is long in the summer of New York.


The day is relatively long in the summer everywhere on the face of the earth.



> Then it is possible to say, "Good afternoon," and not "Good evening," at around 8 PM (before sunset), isn't it?


It is certainly _possible_.  It is just as _possible_ to greet people by shouting "Boo!" at them.  That does not mean it is customary, though.


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## foxfirebrand

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> It is certainly _possible_.  It is just as _possible_ to greet people by shouting "Boo!" at them.  That does not mean it is customary, though.



You're right, of course-- and funny.  Thanks for the laugh!


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## aFriendlyCow

I know this is about over 9 years old. But I say, Good Midnight to people between 12 am - 3 am. As Europeans and 1920's - 1970's American agreed it's Good Morning at 4 am - 11 am.


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## boozer

aFriendlyCow said:


> But I say, Good Midnight to people between 12 am - 3 am.


 Really?!?! Sounds to me like Good Friday.  I was surely not one of the Europeans who struck the 'good morning' deal back in the 20s, but I feel I would have insisted on adopting 'Good morning' also for the 12 am - 3 am period, if I had been born while deliberations on the issue were taking place.

That said, I do not think I could see the goodness of any time period, morning or evening, when I am stirred from my sleep, so I would probably not pay attention to the wording. At least not immediately. I might appreciate 'Happy New Year' once a year, though. 

EDIT: Oh, by the way, welcome to the forum, FC.


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## sdgraham

aFriendlyCow said:


> I know this is about over 9 years old. But I say, Good Midnight to people between 12 am - 3 am. As Europeans and 1920's - 1970's American agreed it's Good Morning at 4 am - 11 am.



(If you would kindly modify your profile to show which variety of English you claim as native, we could see where this might come from)
Welcome to the forum.


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## UberSpunk

Snappy_is_here said:


> People say, "Good evening," when you greet someone in the evening.
> Do you still say, "Good evening," when you meet someone after twelve midnight and before dawn?
> 
> In Japan, professional musicians and other entertainers always say, "Good morning," regardless of time. Is this the same in English-speaking countries?



Thanks for the question.

I will answer through clarification.

Morning technically begins at sunrise, which can vary by location and time of year.

Sunrise signifies the start of a new day. It is technically correct to say 'see you tomorrow' after midnight, and mean that you will see that person after sunrise.

The word morrow means morning, and tomorrow means at morning, or the next daytime.

Morning ends and Evening begins after the sun reaches the zennith, its highest point in the sky, regardless of the time of day.

Evening ends and Nighttime begins after the sun has set, and also varies by location and time of the year.

The anti-meridiem (am) hours before midday are technically considered night hours if it's before sunrise, and day hours after sunrise... For example, in places where the sun has risen at 5am it is technically morning, however at 5am somewhere the sun has not yet risen, it is still night.

Post-meridiem (pm) hours after midday are considered day before sunset and night after sunset.

Midday and midnight are not precisely the middle of the day and night according to sunrise and sunset. They simply mean 12 o'clock during the day or night.

Afternoon means strictly after 12pm (midday), ending in the evening when it starts getting dark.

In conclusion, it is technically still correct to say good morning after 12pm, as long as the sun has not yet reached its zennith. Whether or not it is acceptable on the receiving end is another matter.

It is not technically correct to say good morning as a greeting before sunrise, or good evening after sunset. Morning, followed by evening are the two halves of the sun's course in the sky.

I hope this clarifies a few misconceptions and settles any arguments.


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## JulianStuart

UberSpunk said:


> Thanks for the question.
> 
> I will answer through clarification.
> 
> Morning technically begins at sunrise, which can vary by location and time of year.
> 
> Sunrise signifies the start of a new day. It is technically correct to say 'see you tomorrow' after midnight, and mean that you will see that person after sunrise.
> 
> The word morrow means morning, and tomorrow means at morning, or the next daytime.
> 
> Morning ends and Evening begins after the sun reaches the zennith, its highest point in the sky, regardless of the time of day.
> 
> Nighttime begins after the sun has set, and also varies by location and time of the year.
> 
> The anti-meridian (am) hours after midnight are technically considered night hours before sunrise, and day hours after sunrise... For example, in places where the sun has risen at 5am it is technically morning, however at 5am somewhere the sun has not yet risen, it is still night.
> 
> Post-meridian (pm) hours are considered day before sunset and night after sunset.
> 
> Midday and midnight are not precisely the middle of the day and night according to sunrise and sunset. They simply mean 12 o'clock during the day or night.
> 
> Afternoon means strictly after 12pm, ending in the evening when it starts getting dark.
> 
> In conclusion, it is technically still correct to say good morning after 12pm, as long as the sun has not yet reached its zennith. Whether or not it is acceptable on the receiving end is another matter.
> 
> It is not technically correct to say good morning before sunrise, or good evening after sunset.
> 
> I hope this clarifies a few misconceptions and settles any arguments.


Welcome!
You wisely included some "technically" comments - presumably based on some astronomical definitions (or other field where such specifications are important, and not everyone follows those definitions) , but I doubt you have settled many arguments on the appropriate greeting at different times of the day   For example, in the middle of the summer when it starts to get dark only around, say, 8 pm, does that mean we can still say "Good afternoon" at that time? 





UberSpunk said:


> Afternoon means strictly after 12pm, ending in the evening when it starts getting dark.


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## Keith Bradford

In everyday life (rather than the business life of people who work night-shift) I think we work on the principle of "Have I slept yet?"  Before you sleep, you say Good evening, after you have slept you say Good morning.

However, not everybody works to this same principle.  As a student I attended midnight mass (the 11.30 pm Christmas Eve religious service).  The wife of my college principal was there and as we left the church she invited me and my wife to "lunch tomorrow".  We interpreted this as Christmas Day lunch but realised much later that she had meant Boxing Day lunch (December 26).  Their family were enormously gracious at receiving their unexpected guests 24 hours early...  So British!


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## UberSpunk

JulianStuart said:


> Welcome!
> You wisely included some "technically" comments - presumably based on some astronomical definitions (or other field where such specifications are important, and not everyone follows those definitions) , but I doubt you have settled many arguments on the appropriate greeting at different times of the day   For example, in the middle of the summer when it starts to get dark only around, say, 8 pm, does that mean we can still say "Good afternoon" at that time?



As I've explained, the general consensus is that the afternoon is a period of time after noon, ending when it starts to get dark. Using that information, and some logic; if it has started to get dark around 8pm, you would no longer call it the afternoon.

Of course, some people have decided on their own specific times for afternoon as a matter of personal preference (noon 'til 6pm for example).

Regardless of personal preference, it is widely accepted that the afternoon is over when the day starts to get darker, independent of time. You would then say good evening before the sun sets, and after sunset; goodnight.


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## boozer

UberSpunk said:


> You would then say good evening before the sun sets, and after sunset; goodnight.


Well... nooooo  I would say 'good evening' when meeting someone and 'goodnight' right before going to bed or sending the other person to bed.


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## Andygc

UberSpunk said:


> As I've explained, the consensus is
> <snip>
> Regardless of personal preference, it is widely accepted that the afternoon is over when the day starts to get darker, independent of time. *You would then say good evening before the sun sets, and after sunset; goodnight.*


What consensus? I don't recall there having been a conference on this topic, with invitations to a public consultation.

As to the bold text, I say "good night" in the same circumstances as boozer:


boozer said:


> right before going to bed or sending the other person to bed.





UberSpunk said:


> The anti-meridian (am) hours


I take it this is some sort of movement against there being a midday. Is there a link to their website?


UberSpunk said:


> Afternoon means strictly after 12pm, ending in the evening when it starts getting dark.


That'll be 12 hours post meridian, which I reckon must be midnight. Did you mean 12 midday?


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## Pisces2076

*12am* is the exact moment the 12th hour of the *morning* finishes (am), and similarly for pm. Therefor *12am* is midday and pm would start straight after. The confusion has started since the invention of the digital clock. 
For me,..I usually say goodmorning after 12am or 12midnight.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Pisces2076 said:


> *12am* is the exact moment the 12th hour of the *morning* finishes (am), and similarly for pm. Therefor *12am* is midday and pm would start straight after.



Welcome to the forum, Pisces. 

Unfortunately, what you have said above is not correct.  The "M" in both "A.M." and "P.M" is _Meridiem_, which means "midday" -- in other words, noon.  A.M. is _ante meridiem_, or "before noon", and P.M. is _post meridiem_, or "after noon".  Logically, noon cannot come before or after itself, and therefore 12:00 noon cannot be called either "A.M." or "P.M."  Logically, 12:00 A.M. is the hour of 12:00 that occurs before noon -- and that means that 12:00 A.M. is 12:00 midnight.  However, 12:00 P.M. means the hour of 12:00 that occurs after noon -- so that means that logically, 12:00 P.M. is also 12:00 midnight!!  Thus, while one make speak of 12.01 A.M., or 12:01 P.M. without confusing anyone, it is best not to use "A.M." or "P.M." with 12:00 itself, and instead say 12 noon, or 12 midnight.  One can avoid this confusion by using a 24 hour clock (usually called "military time" in the US), although that also results in some confusion about whether the minute before 0001 hours is 0000 hours, or 2400 hours.


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## UberSpunk

Andygc said:


> What consensus? I don't recall there having been a conference on this topic, with invitations to a public consultation.
> 
> As to the bold text, I say "good night" in the same circumstances as boozer:
> 
> 
> I take it this is some sort of movement against there being a midday. Is there a link to their website?
> That'll be 12 hours post meridian, which I reckon must be midnight. Did you mean 12 midday?



You do know that 12pm is midday right?


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## UberSpunk

boozer said:


> Well... nooooo  I would say 'good evening' when meeting someone and 'goodnight' right before going to bed or sending the other person to bed.



I don't know why anyone would, since the evening ends after the sun has set. But.., if you insist on propagating misinformed ways, who am I to judge. As they say nowadays, you do you.


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## JulianStuart

UberSpunk said:


> the evening ends after the sun has set.


 You have some rather dogmatic-sounding assertions here Are you saying that it *stops *being "evening" *when* the sun sets or simply stating that the end of evening occurs *after* the sun sets?


boozer said:


> Well... nooooo  I would say 'good evening' when meeting someone and 'goodnight' right before going to bed or sending the other person to bed.


I agree with boozer - when greeting someone after, say, 6 pm, I would say "Good Evening" whether the sun was still up or not.  Only when leaving would I say "Goodnight" - it's a departure salutation.


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## UberSpunk

Andygc said:


> What consensus? I don't recall there having been a conference on this topic, with invitations to a public consultation.
> 
> As to the bold text, I say "good night" in the same circumstances as boozer:
> 
> 
> I take it this is some sort of movement against there being a midday. Is there a link to their website?
> That'll be 12 hours post meridian, which I reckon must be midnight. Did you mean 12 midday?


I wrote 12pm, and 12pm is midday, so yeah...


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## LVRBC

I agree with Julian - Goodnight is a departure salutation.  If I arrived for an ER shift at 3AM, I'd say good morning to others coming to work and good night to the colleagues going home.  How's that for confusing?  If a volunteer fire department pager went off at 1AM, we might say "Good morning" to each other on the call, but this would be mildly sarcastic.  But special situations aside, people I know usually say "Good morning from the time they get up until noonish, then good afternoon until dark, then good evening.  Unless they just say "Hi; how's it going?"


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## UberSpunk

JulianStuart said:


> You have some rather dogmatic-sounding assertions here Are you saying that it *stops *being "evening" *when* the sun sets or simply stating that the end of evening occurs *after* the sun sets?
> I agree with boozer - when greeting someone after, say, 6 pm, I would say "Good Evening" whether the sun was still up or not.  Only when leaving would I say "Goodnight" - it's a departure salutation.



Morning is the sun's time in the first half of the sky, and evening is the sun's time in the second half. After sunset, it's night. I didn't make it up. That's the traditional convention.
Of course, anyone can say what they like. Your "truth" is your own. 
I might start calling red 'green', and not stop at traffic lights. Screw convention. I'm gonna live my "truth"...


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## JulianStuart

Snappy_is_here said:


> People say, "Good evening," when you greet someone in the evening.





UberSpunk said:


> Morning is the sun's time in the first half of the sky, and *evening is the sun's time in the second half*. After sunset, it's night. I didn't make it up. That's the traditional convention.


The thread topic is the greetings used.

So when you say "evening is the sun's time in the second half" does that mean that after the sun has passed overhead, it is locally evening, and you would say "Good evening" upon meeting someone at 3pm -  - what happened to afternoon ?    Do you greet someone  at 6 pm in winter, when the sun has set with "Good night?"

Can you tell us where you got this "traditional convention" set of notions? They often seem to be at odds with everyone else's.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

UberSpunk said:


> You do know that 12pm is midday right?



No, it isn't.  See my post at #26, directly above where you posted this comment.


Getting back to usage, out of habit I usually said "good morning" at the beginning of my work day as I walked to my office, although on some days I actually started work after 12 noon, and would then correct myself (or be corrected...) with "Good afternoon."  At the end of a workday -- even if it was 4 o'clock on a sunny summer afternoon -- on departing from work I would say "Good night" to my coworkers, or they would say "Good night" to me.  I have also had occasion to arrive for, and to depart from, work assignments at 0300 hours.  If I was arriving at that hour, I would greet my similarly arriving coworkers with "Good morning", while if I was finishing work I would say "Good night."  For me, the difference at that hour of the day between "Good morning" and "Good night" was whether I was arriving or leaving, and not the time of day.  "Good evening" is probably the one I use least.  I might use it when arriving at a social event, or addressing a group, after 6 P.M., but probably not after 1 or 2 A.M.  I would never say "good evening" at 12:30 or 1:00 in the afternoon, because in English as I speak it, the time that follows noon is not "evening", but is instead "afternoon."  I am sure that if I greeted anyone I know in New York at 1 or 2 P.M. with "Good evening", they would think I was deranged.


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## sdgraham

UberSpunk said:


> Morning is the sun's time in the first half of the sky, and evening is the sun's time in the second half. After sunset, it's night. I didn't make it up. That's the traditional convention.


Really?
WordReference Random House Learner's Dictionary of American English © 2020
morn•ing _/ˈmɔrnɪŋ/_  n.

the first period of the day, usually from dawn, *but sometimes considered from midnight, up to noon:*[uncountable]On Monday morning we arrived at work.[countable]On Monday mornings she usually com
... especially here in northern climes where, in the winter, we are up, dressed, fed and at work well before the sun peeks over the horizon.

.


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## boozer

UberSpunk said:


> I don't know why anyone would, since the evening ends after the sun has set. But.., if you insist on propagating misinformed ways, who am I to judge. As they say nowadays, you do you.


Oh, come ON, US!  I am sure you know better.
You know, I always like a good nice juicy argument, but this subject is just not worth the time and effort. If you decide to stay on and a suitable topic crops up, I promise to give you a good ride for your money one day, but it has to be more exciting than your trivial 'goodnight' 

There are days in December on which the sun sets at 16:30 and at 16:45 it is already pitch dark. I do not start good-eveninging at 14:00 just to suit the astronomical 'convention' and I do not say goodnight at 5 p.m. when it is not yet even decent time to have a shot of whiskey, never mind going to bed  Life is a little more complicated than the Earth's spin and position relative to sun and moon make it appear...


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## GreenWhiteBlue

UberSpunk said:


> Morning is the sun's time in the first half of the sky, and evening is the sun's time in the second half. After sunset, it's night. I didn't make it up. That's the traditional convention.



And this explains why women who go to fancy parties after sunset don't wear _*evening* gowns_, and men don't wear _*evening* clothes_, but instead the guests arrive dressed in _*nightgowns*_ and_ *night* clothes_, right?  Um, no...


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## Andygc

UberSpunk said:


> You do know that 12pm is midday right?


Try reading the various posts above in which an assortment of educated, literate people have pointed out what "ante", "post" and "meridiem" mean. And it seems that you haven't noticed that "anti" is not used in describing time. 12 hours after midday is not midday. It's midnight, and so is the same time as 12 hours before midday, which you could write as "12 am" or "12 pm". Fortunately, sensible people use "12 midday" and "12 midnight".



UberSpunk said:


> and evening is the sun's time in the second half.


Sigh. No afternoon in Australia, then? No afternoon session during a Test Match? No tea interval between afternoon and evening sessions? You never say "good afternoon"? How sad.

However, all that is pretty well irrelevant when discussing whether we arrive at a party at 11 pm and don't say "good night", preferring "good evening" and reserving "good night" for when we leave to go home to bed.


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## UberSpunk

Andygc said:


> Try reading the various posts above in which an assortment of educated, literate people have pointed out what "ante", "post" and "meridiem" mean. And it seems that you haven't noticed that "anti" is not used in describing time. 12 hours after midday is not midday. It's midnight, and so is the same time as 12 hours before midday, which you could write as "12 am" or "12 pm". Fortunately, sensible people use "12 midday" and "12 midnight".
> 
> Sigh. No afternoon in Australia, then? No afternoon session during a Test Match? No tea interval between afternoon and evening sessions? You never say "good afternoon"? How sad.
> 
> However, all that is pretty well irrelevant when discussing whether we arrive at a party at 11 pm and don't say "good night", preferring "good evening" and reserving "good night" for when we leave to go home to bed.


12pm is midday and 12am is midnight. I haven't said anything contrary, and I'm not disputing that. To avoid confusion, yes it is more helpful to say 12 midday or midnight.

Afternoon is time related terminology. The afternoon occurs either in late morning (if the sun hasn't reached zenith, but it's already noon on the clock) or in the early portion of the evening from 12 midday 'til whatever time feels late enough to no longer be labelled as the afternoon (usually around 6 or so, or when the day starts to get dark)

Of course I know that almost everyone goes by the clock rather than the sun.

Evening literally means 'the coming of the eve', referring to the coming of sunset, the time before night. I don't know why people insist on saying good evening well after sunset and well into the night, but whatever...


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## JulianStuart

UberSpunk said:


> I don't know why people insist on saying good evening well after sunset and well into the night, but whatever...


But you DO know


UberSpunk said:


> Of course I know that almost everyone goes by the clock rather than the sun.



The WRF dictionaries evening - WordReference.com Dictionary of English includes a dialectal usage that is what you are claiming is "technically correct", but it is not the first definitions (the ones most of us use)


> *eve•ning*  (ēv*′*ning), n.
> 
> the latter part of the day and early part of the night.
> the period *from sunset to bedtime*:He spent the evenings reading.
> *Dialect Terms*[Chiefly Midland and Southern U.S.]the time between noon and sunset, including the afternoon and twilight.





> Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::
> *evening*/ˈiːvnɪŋ/n
> 
> the latter part of the day, esp from late afternoon until nightfall
> the latter or concluding period: the evening of one's life
> the early part of the night spent in a specified way: an evening at the theatre
> an entertainment, meeting, or reception held in the early part of the night
> Southern US BRIT  *dialect*  the period between noon and sunset


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## Egmont

UberSpunk said:


> Thanks for the question.
> 
> I will answer through clarification.
> 
> Morning technically begins at sunrise, which can vary by location and time of year.
> 
> Sunrise signifies the start of a new day. It is technically correct to say 'see you tomorrow' after midnight, and mean that you will see that person after sunrise.
> 
> The word morrow means morning, and tomorrow means at morning, or the next daytime.
> 
> Morning ends and Evening begins after the sun ...



Thank you for a completely logical and technically correct explanation of how English rationally ought to be spoken.

The unfortunate fact is that natural languages were not put together by logicians with the objective of rationality. They evolved. Their evolution is not driven by logic. It is driven by millions of attempts on the part of flawed human beings, over hundreds or thousands of years, to communicate what matters to them. Those attempts are based how people think subjectively, often subconsciously, about one thing or another. In this case, most people think of the end of the day in terms of when they go to sleep, with a period of sleep dividing one day from the next. Considerations of when the sun reaches a point on the opposite side of the earth, or what a clock set to an arbitrary time zone happens to indicate, are at best secondary and usually irrelevant.

The English language is full of logical inconsistencies. That is a fact you must learn to accept, just as King Canute many years ago - as the story is usually mistold - had to accept that he could not sweep back the tide. Millions of people, in all their delightful and fascinating irrationality, have said "good evening" after midnight for generations. They will continue to do so for as long as English is spoken. That practice is what matters to the Japanese speaker who opened this thread in hopes of obtaining useful guidance for using this phrase, not logic or lack of it. And I, despite holding a Ph.D. in engineering and therefore presumably capable of logic and rationality, will be among them.


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## natkretep

Moderator note: I'm closing this thread as we've had a sufficiently long and full discussion on the matter.


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