# Matayemón Samá



## Arpin

*Marayemon sam* 

Hola, no sé si alguno habla español. Me gustaría saber por el sonido (no sé la grafía) me pudieran decir qué significa este sonido japonés en español. Gracias


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## holasunshine

Hola,
Suena como un apellido. 
Será "Marayemon-san"? 

El sonido "sam" no existe en Japones, con excepción de la N no tienen consonantes que funcionan solas. son soló vocales y sílabas.
A, I, U, E, O, 
KA, KI, KU, KE, KO
GA, GI, GU, GE, GO
...
y la N


Saludos!!


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## Flaminius

Hello,

Transcription of the Japanese phrase can be; _Maraemon san_.  You may have heard a [j] between [a] and [e] but the sequence [je] is not recognised as such in the Japanese phonology (not the separate phonemes, they are recognisable in various syllables such as [ja] and [se]).  It is usually an allophone of /e/ to a Japanese speaker.

Anyway, _Maraemon san_ is most likely someone calling another person by the name Maraemon ("Hi, Maraemon").  This is a bit of problem as Maraemon is not an authentic Japanese name.

I'd like some explanations on the context and the background of your phrase.  Where did you hear it?  If it is not in a fiction, an oddity like Maraemon won't pass for an ordinary name.


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## Arpin

Hi, sorry for my english language. The context: A spanish dominic religious in XVII siecle went to Japan. The japanese christians called marayemon sam a religious

Thanks


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## Flaminius

*Arpin*, don't worry about English.  Just keep writing in Spanish.  I won't be able to answer in Spanish, but I can try reading at least.



> The japanese christians called marayemon sam a religious


I didn't realise you were referring to historical Japanese.  Maybe you can directly quote the book you are reading?  For the last 400 years, Japanese have undergone considerable change.  What may have been an ordinary word then is very hard to recognise today.  It would help us help you better (besides, it's the requirement of the rules ).


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## Arpin

Flaminius said:


> *Arpin*, don't worry about English.  Just keep writing in Spanish.  I won't be able to answer in Spanish, but I can try reading at least.
> 
> 
> I didn't realise you were referring to historical Japanese.  Maybe you can directly quote the book you are reading?  For the last 400 years, Japanese have undergone considerable change.  What may have been an ordinary word then is very hard to recognise today.  It would help us help you better (besides, it's the requirement of the rules ).



If you can't answer in Spanish, can I write in Spanish? For me is more easy.

Yo estoy haciendo un trabajo sobre un español que estuvo en Japón. Yo he visto hilos (threads) que hablan (se menciona) a este hombre. En uno de los hilos (threads) tú respondías. Yo estoy leyendo el documento y pone:

"Y así era lenguaje ordinario, que si no era mina nueva, no tratasen de llevar a  _*Matayemón Samá*_ (que así me llamaban en traje de Japón) a sus casas......"

Perdón, si queréis, no sé si puedo, poner un fichero de cómo se pronuncia. Gracias (Yo pongo tantas veces  "yo", es para facilitar  la traducción)


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## Flaminius

> Yo estoy haciendo un trabajo sobre un español que estuvo en Japón.


Maybe you could tell us whom you are referring to?  

Regarding the quote from the document, I am not sure what the ordinary language has to do with new mines but Matayemón is perfectly an ordinary name back then.  [Any names with _-emon_ are outdated nowadays.]  Samá is a title for respectable persons.  I really would like to know the name of the Spaniard as I suspect the Japanese chose for him a Japanese name similar to the Spanish name, which they could not get around to pronouncing.


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## Arpin

Hola,

su nombre era Diego Collado y escribió la primera "gramática hispanojaponesa", entre otras obras como un diccionario.

El texto que he puesto está escrito en castellano antiguo, por lo que el significado no se entiende fácilmente, pero más o menos quiere decir
"Y así era lenguaje ordinario, que si no era mina nueva, no tratasen de llevar a Matayemón Samá (que así me llamaban en traje de Japón) a sus casas......"
Por todos era conocido o sabido, que si no era casa de cristianos, no intentasen llevar a Diego Collado. Diego Collado iba vestido con el traje japonés (para pasar desapercibido) y por eso le llamaban Matayemon Sama.

Gracias


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## mikun

Hola,
I understand a small part of espagnol.
I cheked 'matayemon' by google and get 1 hit in 17th century.  It is a explanation of that 1 hit,
Around the 1600, beginning of Tokugawa era, many christian people came to Japan and do their religious works.  Tokugawa government has prohibited christianity in 1614 and many christian peoples including foreign and domestic have been killed after that.
Foreign christian leader 'hasinto orfanes' has been killed in 10 Sep 1622. All the families who lent their house to  'hasinto orfanes' was killed in 12 Sep 1622.  Their name was 'Matius matayemon', wife 'Maria', sons 'dominngo' and 'migueru' and mother 'Maria'.
This story is not known well in Japan.


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## Flaminius

Good evening, *mikun*.  As I understand, _Mataemon_ is Diego Collado, the writer, himself.

Anyway, there is no knowing why people called him (or he called himself) _Mataemon_.


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## Arpin

Hi, Flaminius is right. The japanais people called Matayemón Samá to Collado. And Mikun is right also.


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## Tzuru

Hi everyone, pleased to meet you all. I'm a friend of Antonio's from Madrid, and have been following this thread with great interest. I thought I might add a couple of details to see if we can move it further along.

Antonio's interest in Diego Collado, "Matayemón-sama" comes from having been born in the same town of the Extremadura region in Spain. Antonio is researching his life on an ethnographical basis.

Apparently Collado was a key historical figure but due to his complicated political career within the Dominican order, a lot of his life has either not been documented or possibly expunged from Spanish and/or eclesiastical records. 

One of the most interesting datums he has found is that Collado was known in Nippon, during his life, as "Matayemón-sama". He has only found the Romanji reference to this name, so we are unsure as to the proper Kanji or Hiragana characters this is translated from. 

Antonio believes the original meaning of his name could be important to better understand Collado's standing, works and influence in Nippon during his stay there. From your kind contrubutions and other research, we understand that the -sama honorific must mean he was highly honoured by some, and that the personal name is indeed archaic, but that's as far as we can tell at present time.

Antonio relies on translating internet engines i.e. Babelfish and you fine folk to access Japanese-language content, as no one in our group of friends can read modern or ancient Japanese alphabets. This makes your contributions especially appreciated.

I hope these details have helped fill some gaps, and please let me know if I may provide any further details. Many thanks again for all your help, and best wises to all.


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## Flaminius

Saludos, Tzuru y Antinio.

I don't have much more else to offer but let me write Mataemon in the original script:
又右衛門

又 (_mata_): I don't know if it is the case with the Japanese morpheme (or what's written in italics, which usually means "crotch" or "branching") but the character meant "to help" in ancient Chinese.  Japanese literati were always aware of this meaning.

右衛門 (_-emon_ from older _-yemon_): This was a common suffix to form men's names.  Literally, it means "imperial guard of the right station" but, by the time Collado was in Japan, it was already a bound morpheme only for men's names, irrelevant of the office in the imperial court.


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