# FR: negative - he didn't make a sound



## DT4

I am trying to translate the phrase he didn't make a sound.

Il n'a pas fait aucun bruit was my first attempt but I don't know if this is clumsy expression because of the double negative or not ?

Would it have to be Il n'a pas fait un seul bruit or would my first suggestion work ? Is the seul necessarry with the 2nd ?


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## pieanne

W>hat I would naturally say is "il n'a fait aucun bruit"


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## Franglais1969

pieanne said:


> W>hat I would naturally say is "il n'a fait aucun bruit"


 

I agree wholeheartedly. That seems the most natural to me.


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## DT4

I see thanks, but I always thought that the negation goes around the verb that changes. It is the same in another thread I recently started asking the difference between je ne suis qu'allé and je ne suis allé que. I now understand the difference between these but as I said I always thought the negation had to go around the verb that changes ?


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## Padraig

I don't see where your difficulty lies, DT4. You have your _ne_, then you have the verb _a fait_, then you have your negative complement in _aucun_.


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## ascoltate

DT4 said:


> I see thanks, but I always thought that the negation goes around the verb that changes.



only some negations go around the verb: "ne... pas" / "ne... jamais" / "ne... rien" (there may be a couple more...)

other ones go where they would logically fit in the sentence:

"ne.. aucun" : Je n'ai vu *aucun* chat. Je n'ai parlé à *aucun* policier.

"ne... personne" : Je n'ai regardé *personne*.

(even "ne ... rien" if it is the object of a preposition can do this: Je n'ai besoin de *rien*. -- even though it's: Je n'ai *rien* acheté.)


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## DT4

So in correct written french, the ne is necessarry ? You couldn't just say J'ai vu aucun chat ?

Is it just those three that have to go around the changing verb or are there others ? Those 3 always have to or the jamais/rien/pas could come later if its logical aswell ? Je n'ai fait rien or Je n'ai demandé rien for example ?


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## ascoltate

DT4 said:


> So in correct written french, the ne is necessarry ? You couldn't just say J'ai vu aucun chat ?
> 
> Is it just those three that have to go around the changing verb or are there others ? Those 3 always have to or the jamais/rien/pas could come later if its logical aswell ? Je n'ai fait rien or Je n'ai demandé rien for example ?



In written French you must use the "ne" (I mean, not in an e-mail or something, but in "correct" writing...).
In spoken French, it is left out more frequently than it is used...

There may be others like "rien" and "jamais" as I said, -- yes, "ne.. plus" is like that too, for example.
In those cases it is not correct to move the negation -- so you *can't* say : "Je n'ai fait rien", etc.


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## DT4

Thanks, so it is these four ? Pas, Jamais, Rien and Plus which have to come straight after the changing verb but it can change for the others Aucun, Que, Guère and Persoone ?


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## ascoltate

"guère" is like pas, jamais, etc.

--there should be a list somewhere--

anyone ??  anyone ??


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## itka

Since you are *learning* french, please always remember to use the two parts of the negation.
In correct french, it is not allowed to drop the first part and it's much more easy to use the two parts.
If you don't, you'll come to useless difficulties, for instance : "*j'ai vu aucun chat" which is completely wrong.


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## ascoltate

itka said:


> Since you are *learning* french, please always remember to use the two parts of the negation.
> In correct french, it is not allowed to drop the first part and it's much more easy to use the two parts.
> If you don't, you'll come to useless difficulties, for instance : "*j'ai vu aucun chat" which is completely wrong.



This is a matter of pedagogical debate. I think learners should learn how to speak as native speakers do. And native speakers, as I've often cited on this forum, delete "ne" between 80% and 99% of the time depending on the region. I would encourage learners to always write the "ne" and never say it....


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## Grop

Hello, I think ne dropping is more complicated than just "80% of speakers drop every ne in every sentence they say". It is likely to be dropped is many sentences - such as "J'ai pas vu de chat" -, but I really doubt it may be dropped in "je n'ai vu aucun chat".

Now, maybe the former sentence is more likely to be said .

(Concerning guère, it is really old-fashioned).


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## DT4

ascoltate said:


> "guère" is like pas, jamais, etc.
> 
> --there should be a list somewhere--
> 
> anyone ?? anyone ??


 
The exact list anyone ? Of which the negation doesn't have to inevitably follow the changing verb.

Why is j'ai vu aucun chat any more wrong than je sais plus (In the sense of current spoken french to say I no longer know/ I have forgotten) ?

If guère is outdated, how would you say a sentence with barely now ?


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## BigBen

If you are not sure whether to drop the "ne" or not: better use it!! This way you will never sound wrong!

For a sentence like  "I barely know" we would say "je ne sais pas trop"


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## ascoltate

Grop said:


> Hello, I think ne dropping is more complicated than just "80% of speakers drop every ne in every sentence they say". It is likely to be dropped is many sentences - such as "J'ai pas vu de chat" -, but I really doubt it may be dropped in "je n'ai vu aucun chat".
> 
> Now, maybe the former sentence is more likely to be said .



I've already had this argument many times with people on the forum.

It all depends if you want your French to sound stilted and unnatural or if you want to be able to speak as French people do.

But it isn't really a lot more complicated than "80%..." - that's actually even untrue. Almost all studies on the subject (and I once typed out a bibliography on here) find rates well over 90% for "ne"-dropping.

Anyway, the choice of whether to sound natural or text-booky is up to the individual learner...


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## DT4

Sorry to persist but anyone can confirm the negations which must come after the changing verb and which don't have to ? 

Anyone have an explanation for why j'ai vu aucun chat is any more wrong than other ne-drops, for example je sais plus which I often hear.

For Info, I am completely in agreement with you ascoltae, in the 6 months I have been here I have very very seldom heard ne in spoken french at all in any context. When I used it in conversation at the start of my time here, I got funny looks, similar with nous as a sentence subject. Although I'd use both in written French in most cases.


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## ascoltate

"J'ai vu aucun chat" is not more wrong- it's certainly how you'd say that sentence in Québec (which has a 99% ne-dropping rate). My guess is that it's a register mismatch-- "aucun" sounds somewhat fancy, and "ne"-dropping is more frequent in informal speech.

As for the list, most of the ones that are made for beginners that I can find online give only "pas", "plus", "rien", and "jamais" as obligatorily surrounding the conjugated verb-- many of the archaic or old-fashioned ones are presumably like these too (guère, point, goutte...)...


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## Montaigne

ascoltate,
"Je n'ai vu aucun chat" is french.
"J'ai vu aucun chat" is not and is wrong in whatever french speaking country (including Québec) you might hear it.


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## ascoltate

Montaigne said:


> ascoltate,
> "Je n'ai vu aucun chat" is french.
> "J'ai vu aucun chat" is not and is wrong in whatever french speaking country (including Québec) you might hear it.



By definition if you hear a native speaker say it, it isn't wrong.

"Je n'ai aucun vu chat." is WRONG, because a native speaker can't say it.
"J'ai vu aucun chat." is NONSTANDARD - but it is used and understood by native speakers.


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## itka

ascoltate said:


> By definition if you hear a native speaker say it, it isn't wrong.
> 
> "Je n'ai aucun vu chat." is WRONG, because a native speaker can't say it.
> "J'ai vu aucun chat." is NONSTANDARD - but it is used and understood by native speakers.
> 
> *sigh* some people will never learn...



I'm sorry, but if you hear somebody saying "J'ai vu aucun chat" you can be sure the person who said it is not speaking french as a native speaker.

But, if you wish to say it, please be comfortable. We'll understand you very well. We just understand in the meantime that you're not a french person.


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## ascoltate

itka said:


> I'm sorry, but if you hear somebody saying "J'ai vu aucun chat" you can be sure the person who said it is not speaking french as a native speaker.
> 
> But, if you wish to say it, please be comfortable. We'll understand you very well. We just understand in the meantime that you're not a french person.



This is false.
I happen to have access to a corpus of 206 interviews conducted with native French speaking Montrealers. I only have 4 of them on my computer right now, but I did a search through them for instances of "aucun/e". Out of 10 instances of "aucun/e" in complete sentences, there were 9 used without "ne" and 1 used with "ne" (of course if the sentence isn't complete, e.g. "Aucune idée!", then there can't be a "ne" anyway...).
When I get to the whole corpus, I'll try to give you the actual figures.
Anyway, I can't prove that the same would be true in France without access to a similar corpus, but I have already proven that it is true for Québec. And I'm willing to bet ythat you'd get pretty similar results in France, with the rate of "ne" being only slightly higher than in Québec, as is generally true for France; i.e., there is nothing special about "aucun"...


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## itka

Ascoltate, I do speak french for a long time ago, now. I don't need any examples of what is possible or not. I only wanted to tell you what we say.

You can hear : "aucune idée !" It's perfectly french.
You can hear : "je sais pas". It is not _correct _french but it is commonly said.

But, no native french speaker would say : "j'ai vu aucun chat" to express "j'ai pas vu de chat" which was the question of DT4. 

I think you should be more cautious when you tell people they just can drop the "ne" in negative sentences.
 Even if you heard a lot of occurencies, I think it depends _when_ and _where_ you got them. I'm sure you can provide a corpus with 100 % occurencies of "ne...pas" if you get your examples in another context (other social environment, other ages, other circumstances).

When a people learn french, I assume he wants to speak everytime, everywhere, a good french, not only in a few circumstances. Using always the "ne" is the right way to get it. To drop the "ne" doesn't always indicate a smart french speaker. It can show he's not educated enough, or he speaks far too familiarly, or he doesn't care enough what he says... Nobody would laugh at a foreign people using all the "ne" he can... but somebody forgetting the mandatory one's would just be ridiculous.

If you are always able to know when, with who, you can drop the "ne", feel free to do it, but don't tell other people to do so. You would be responsible of their mistakes.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hello DT4,

Your two suggestions are good! 
« Il n'a fait aucun bruit »
« Il n'a pas fait un seul bruit » 
And if I were learning French, I would follow itka's advice about keeping the "ne". Even if it's true, we, native speakers often "swallow" the "ne" when speaking fast, it's somehow still audible.  And in formal speech it would be even more stressed:
« Je vous le jure, je _n_'ai vu _aucun _chat, monsieur le juge ! »


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## tilt

ascoltate said:


> By definition if you hear a native speaker say it, it isn't wrong.


I can't agree with this statement.
Why not saying "if it's written by a native, it's spelled correctly", too?

Many people do speak and write their own language badly.


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## ascoltate

itka said:


> Ascoltate, I do speak french for a long time ago, now. I don't need any examples of what is possible or not. I only wanted to tell you what we say.
> 
> You can hear : "aucune idée !" It's perfectly french.
> You can hear : "je sais pas". It is not _correct _french but it is commonly said.
> 
> But, no native french speaker would say : "j'ai vu aucun chat" to express "j'ai pas vu de chat" which was the question of DT4.



You've obviously ignored what I wrote because the sentences that were in the corpus are just like "J'ai vu aucun chat."


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## tilt

ascoltate said:


> You've obviously ignored what I wrote because the sentences that were in the corpus are just like "J'ai vu aucun chat."


I agree "j'ai vu aucun chat" happens to be said, but I can assure you that any student saying this during a French exam would get a bad mark.

"J'ai vu aucun chat" is not _proper _French, Ascoltate, whatever you can argue. It's not the French that people who write in these forums are asking for, not the French that foreigners ought to speak, because before to take liberties with a language, you must _master_ it and know exactly, when you make some mistake like dropping _ne_, why you do it and what you should have say to be correct. 

So feel free to explain, each time you speak about negation, that most of the French speakers do drop _ne_. That would be very helpful for everybody.
But please, don't pretend this is right.


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## DT4

I don't think he was trying to say it is technically correct, I think he was trying to say that if you do use ne, apart from on a rare ocassion, you do not sound like a French native which is what many people on here are aiming for I assume. I agree completely that beginners should be taught with the ne but when they reach a certain level should be encouraged to speak as a french speaker would, which in my experience is nearly always without the ne. As long as they understand it should always be there in writing and in very formal conversations. On the j'ai vu aucun chat argument, he wasn't trying to say this was technically correct either he was just saying that french people would say it and this was a response to me asking (after someone else had said it was) why it is any more wrong than dropping the ne and saying je sais plus as a negative phrase.


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