# Evolution of Latin -ium ending in french



## killerbee256

I'm working on a mod for the game crusader kings 2. I want to create localizations if various Romance cultures control various regions. Basically I wonder what _Latium_ become under french sound/spelling changes.


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## CapnPrep

I guess the regular outcome of _Latium_ would have been _Lais _(cf. _palatium_ > _palais_).


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## ahvalj

Or else _Lace_ (like in _spatium>espace_), if semi-learnt (I guess it is more plausible since Rome was conquered under Charlemagne, and the word might have escaped a couple of evolutionary steps). Judging from this list http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=end&lookup=atium&lang=la , _Lais_ & _Lace_ are the two only possibilities, since only _palātium_ and _spatium_ seem to have passed to French. Bookish -_ātius_ produce -_ace_: _Horace_, _Pancrace_.


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## fdb

killerbee256 said:


> I'm working on a mod for the game crusader kings 2. I want to create localizations if various Romance cultures control various regions. Basically I wonder what _Latium_ become under french sound/spelling changes.





CapnPrep said:


> I guess the regular outcome of _Latium_ would have been _Lais _(cf. _palatium_ > _palais_).



 I think he is asking "what Latium became", not what it "would have" become hypothetically. The French word for Latium is Latium.


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## killerbee256

No I was asking for a hypothetical what if, because it becomes _Lácio_/_Lacio_ in western Iberian and _Laci_ in Catalan and Occitan. It just doesn't look right to have it remain the Latin spelling if the french control the area.


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## Nino83

In Portuguese it would be also _Laço_ like _spatium > espaço_ while in Catalan it would be _Lau_, like _palau_ (< _palatium_). 
The Catalan evolution is _palatiu > palaʦu > palaʣu > paladz > palau_


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## killerbee256

Hmm, so the ones are posted have heavy Italian influence then? Or are they purposeful constructions? I found them on Wikipedia.


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## ahvalj

killerbee256 said:


> Hmm, so the ones are posted have heavy Italian influence then? Or are they purposeful constructions? I found them on Wikipedia.


I think the word for Latium didn't exist in the speech of virtually anybody outside Italy (and most West Romance speakers at that time simply didn't know about the existence of such a region), so naturally all the variants we find across the languages are just semi-bookish interpretations of the original Latin word.


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## Nino83

Spanish and Portuguese are regular, _Lacio/Lácio_, the French one is a learned word. 
Also the Catalan but it seems a little strange, because Vulgar Latin intervocalic -tj-, later -ts- was sonorized to -(d)z- and in final position became -u-, but probably proper names are an exception to the rule.


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## ahvalj

Nino83 said:


> Spanish and Portuguese are regular, _Lacio/Lácio_


_puteum>*putju>pozzo/pozo/poço_
So, regularly, we'd expect _**Lazzo/**Lazo/**Laço_.


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## Nino83

ahvalj said:


> _puteum>*putju>pozzo/pozo/poço_
> So, regularly, we'd expect _**Lazzo/**Lazo/**Laço_.



Not always, _palatium > palácio_


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## ahvalj

Nino83 said:


> Not always, _palatium > palácio_


I think we're dealing here with the opposition "everyday words" vs. "words of culture and education". After all, _Italia_ itself is a latinism (should have been **_Itaglia/Taglia, cp. Apulia>Puglia, battaglia, figlia_).


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## Nino83

And _palácio_ had an alternative, popular, form, in Portuguese (which is still present today in Galician), _paço < palaço_.


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## Cossue

Nino83 said:


> And _palácio_ had an alternative, popular, form, in Portuguese (which is still present today in Galician), _paço < palaço_.



I was about to say that  Galician _pazo _(= _paço_, eastern Galician _pacio_, all from medieval_ paaço_) is a patrimonial word which is applied to the mansions and tower houses of noblemen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazo. 

So, for Galician(-Portuguese) the expected evolution would have been _Latium _> **_Laço_ (although, of course, Latium was not a patrimonial word of Galician or Portuguese).


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## Nino83

In fact I just said in #6 that in Portuguese could be also _Laço_, but I was not sure that _tium > ço_ was the only possible change, seeing that there are a lot of words ending in _cio/cia_.


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## exgerman

Of course, nobody called the area Latium during the crusader period. It was the papal state, or the patrimony of St. Peter. The modern term Lazio was brought back from the dead when the area became part of the kingdom of Italy in the 19th century.


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## killerbee256

I finally got around to using these thank you guys for your help. There are several more I've like to create, what sources other then Wikipedia can I can find for sounds changes from Latin to romance languages.


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## Dymn

Nino83 said:


> In Portuguese it would be also _Laço_ like _spatium > espaço_ while in Catalan it would be _Lau_, like _palau_ (< _palatium_).
> The Catalan evolution is _palatiu > palaʦu > palaʣu > paladz > palau_


There's also _espai _and _servei_. And a palatalization from /l/ to /ʎ/ could also be expected if it was a popular word. So _Llai _or _Llau_, I really don't know which one.


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## Cenzontle

> what sources other then Wikipedia can I can find for sounds changes from Latin to romance languages?


• Ramón Menéndez Pidal, _Manual elemental de gramática histórica española_ (see index of Spanish words).
• Edwin B. Williams, _From Latin to Portuguese_ (sorry, no Google Books access).
• Peter Boyd-Bowman, _From Latin to Romance in Sound Charts._


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## killerbee256

Thank you those look useful, I've got some bugs to work out on the software end, but once I have them worked out, I will read thought those and set about making hypothetical place names, then see what you folks think about my work.


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## Cenzontle

• Mildred K. Pope, _From Latin to Modern French, with Especial Consideration of Anglo-Norman: Phonology and Morphology_ (sorry, no Google Books access).


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## yong321

Cenzontle said:


> • Mildred K. Pope, _From Latin to Modern French, with Especial Consideration of Anglo-Norman: Phonology and Morphology_ (sorry, no Google Books access).



But you can search book content for a snippet view:
From Latin to modern French with especial consideration of Anglo-Norman; phonology and morphology for 1934 ed.
From Latin to modern French with especial consideration of Anglo-Norman for 1966 ed.


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## Angelo di fuoco

ahvalj said:


> _puteum>*putju>pozzo/pozo/poço_
> So, regularly, we'd expect _**Lazzo/**Lazo/**Laço_.



In Catalan it's pou.



Nino83 said:


> Not always, _palatium > palácio_





Nino83 said:


> And _palácio_ had an alternative, popular, form, in Portuguese (which is still present today in Galician), _paço < palaço_.



Lisbon toponym: Terreiro do Paço.


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