# ń vs ni, ć vs ci etc.



## JakubikF

I have got a short question to people who learn Polish. Do you see any significant difference in pronunciation between ń and ni in words e.g. słońce|słonice or ć and ci in "wróć|wróci". Are you able to distinguish during a talk what is used in the moment, the letter ć, ń, ś, ź or ci, ni, si, zi.


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## Hal1fax

Well they're not even the same sound....
ń=ny
ni=nee
ć=ch
ci=chee
ś=sh
si=shee
ź=zh
zi=zhee


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## slowik

Hal1fax, you are wrong.

All of these sounds are exactly the same - _ń_ is pronounced in exactly the same way as _ni _and the difference lies somewhere else (probably you should read about Polish phonetics if you want your pronunciation to be perfect). 

What you have written is a bit simpler way of pronouncing Polish and it's aimed at foreigners who don't have to speak it perfectly. It's still incorrect though.

We think of it more like:

ń - ń
ni - ń-i
ć - ć
ci - ć-i
ś - ś
si - ś-i
ź -ź
zi - ź-i

_ń_, _ć_, _ś_ and _ź_ are Slavic-specific sounds and they can't represented correctly using English alphabet.


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## Thomas1

slowik said:


> Hal1fax, you are wrong.
> 
> All of these sounds are exactly the same - _ń_ is pronounced in exactly the same way as _ni _and the difference lies somewhere else (probably you should read about Polish phonetics if you want your pronunciation to be perfect).
> 
> [...]


Then I must have been wrong all my life as in the given examples they are different to me...

If they are exactly the same, why is it that I can tell which word is which in the following:
_wróci jutro_
_wróć jutro_
when enunciated?
To me, the difference in pronunciation is very conspicuous as well as in the meaning. 
I can clearly hear the it and have never been diagnosed as being hard of hearing.
It is interesting since I have heard a few times that they are the same and haven't really been able to come up with a satisfactory explication as to whether this is true or not. Could you please explain where I am, and some other Polish speakers too, wrong?


Tom


PS: the subject has already been brought up in the forum: Polish: Soft consonants.


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## .Jordi.

Mnie również bardzo dziwi, że ktoś mógłby pomylić _wróć jutro_ z _wróci jutro_, chociażby dlatego że to _i _nie tylko zmiękcza, lecz także - w przypadku _wróci _- pełni funkcję sylabotwórczą i nie wierzę, że ktoś nie słyszy różnicy między jednosylabowym _wróć _i dwusylabowym _wróci_. Analogicznie jest w wypadku pary _słonice_ - _słońce._


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## slowik

I wrote that Hal1fax was wrong because she wrote incorrect comparison of sounds. 

_Ci _obviously isn't _chee_.

What I meant was the fact that the _ć _sound in the words _słońce _and _słonice _is produced by exactly the same part of the tounge and in the same part of the mouth in both words. I wrote that because Hal1fax's comparison could be misleading and make other foreigners make unnecessary mistakes. 

I am a Pole too and I know that we all can hear the difference between _wróć jutro_ and _wróci jutro_. I would like you too read my post again (especially my comparison of sounds - it's much more accurate) - maybe I wasn't too clear the first time. Am I clear now?


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## .Jordi.

slowik said:


> I would like you too read my post again (especially my comparison of sounds - it's much more accurate) - maybe I wasn't too clear the first time. Am I clear now?



Nie do końca można się zgodzić z zaproponowanym przez Ciebie porównaniem, są wyrazy w języku polskim, w których ciąg liter _ci _nie jest realizowany ani jako [ć], ani jako [ći], przykład - cis [c'is].

Aby uprościć sprawę, można powiedzieć, że występowanie dwuznaku w miejsce jednego uzależniony jest od prawego kontekstu samogłoski. Jeśli po niej pojawia się samogłoska, to używamy dwuznaku, jeśli nie - konieczna jest spółgłoska z diakrytem. I oczywiście ich wymowa jest identyczna.

A wracając do pary _słonice _- _słońce_, jak się nad nią zastanowić i dobrze wsłuchać, to tutaj w wyrazie _słońce _nawet nie zachodzi zmiękczenie _n_. Nie zwróciłem był na to uwagi.


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## JakubikF

slowik said:


> All of these sounds are exactly the same


  My aim was to make aware people who learn Polish of the fact that those sounds ARE different from each other. I just wanted to know how (or if) they recognize this difference and discuss it. Nevertheless slowik is partially right . Hal1fax - the way of pronunciation of Polish soft sounds you presented is absolutely wrong. Not only you have used "English phonetic writing" (so the way you hear it), but also, as slowik wrote - sounds si, ni, zi, ci should be considered as śi, ńi, źi, ći. The point is pronouncing e.g. wróci and wróć are very similar but not the same. First of all, wró-ci  - two syllables, wróć - only one. Secondly, "-ć" is much shorter than "-ci". Thirdly the true pronunciation of "-ci" is "-ći". I think that you should find some records with pronunciation with Polish to understand it properly.


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## JakubikF

.Jordi. said:


> Nie do końca można się zgodzić z zaproponowanym przez Ciebie porównaniem, są wyrazy w języku polskim, w których ciąg liter _ci _nie jest realizowany ani jako [ć], ani jako [ći], przykład - cis [c'is].



 If I am wrong correct me but in my opinion in wróci and in cis (a tree) we pronounce it in the same way. Do you mean "cis" as a tree or "cis" as isomer cis/trans (in chemistry) or "cis" a sound in music. If you mean cis as an isomer I think it subjects to something else. As far as I know in Polish there is a rule which says that foreign words like "cis", "sinus" must be pronounced without making "c" or "s" soft.


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## .Jordi.

JakubikF said:


> If I am wrong correct me but in my opinion in wróci and in cis (a tree) we pronounce it in the same way. Do you mean "cis" as a tree or "cis" as isomer cis/trans (in chemistry) or "cis" a sound in music. If you mean cis as an isomer I think it subjects to something else. As far as I know in Polish there is a rule which says that foreign words like "cis", "sinus" must be pronounced without making "c" or "s" soft.



Owszem, moja wina, powinienem był napisać, że chodzi mi o _cis_ 'dźwięk w muzyce'. Co nie zmienia faktu, że nigdzie nie napisałem o tym, że w wymowie tego wyrazu _c_ jest miękkie, wyraźnie napisałem [c'is], a nie [ćis].


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## JakubikF

I might not be so well educated in this matter but for me [c'] is the same as [ć]. Am I wrong? In Czech it is used this way and transliterations from Cyrillic also require [ ' ] sign if a letter before it was softened.


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## JakubikF

However the example you have mentioned above is just an exception from standard rule, I suppose.


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## .Jordi.

Nie wiem, jakie rozwiązania są przyjęte w transliteracji z cyrylicy, za to wg fonetycznej transkrypcji slawistycznej [c'] i [ć] to dwa różne dźwięki.


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## JakubikF

Of course you're right, I withdraw my doubts about [c'] and [ć]. Certainly these are to different sounds. I got mixed up.


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## Hal1fax

I certainly do know how to pronounce Polish...I was merely stating the 'i' at the end of the sound differentiates them?  I used English phonetic writing intentionally. Maybe I don't understand the question here? The 'i' threw me off and I don't think ńi and ni sound the same at all, the ń is much more pronounced.
Anyway, bottom line, yes I can distinguish them I guess....
and I still don't think I understand the question....


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