# Erscheinungshaftigkeit der Welt (Mauthner)



## Löwenfrau

For what I understand, the words _haftig_, _Haftigkeit_ etc., are not of current use in Germany nowadays, is that true? I only know words with -_haft_ ending - like _wahrhaft_, _ernsthaft_, etc. - in a qualifying function, I assume. And the verb _haften_ - _stecken_? Engl. _adhere_, _stick_?

Here I believe we have a neologism from Mauthner:

"Galilei, Boyle und Gassendi, besonders aber Locke, haben mit immer stärkerer Entschiedenheit gelehrt, daß die sekundären Qualitäten, d.h. die so wohl bekannten sinnlichen Eigenschaften der Dinge nicht objektiver Art sind, sondern subjektiver Art; Berkeley und nach ihm Kant haben sodann den subjektiven Charakter auch der primären Qualitäten, man denke an Größe und Bewegung, durchschaut. Mit dieser Phänomenalität oder (Verzeihung für das Wort) Erscheinungshaftigkeit der Welt war den vorhin erwähnten Sprachgewohnheiten, Eigenschaften zu substantivieren, ihr Recht abgesprochen." 

I can "sense" the meaning, but I'm not sure about how to translate it, I'm not sure it can be literally translated. Would "phenomenic consistence of the world" be too far?


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## Schimmelreiter

_Phänomenalität = Erscheinungshaftigkeit
phenomenality = __phenomenality
_


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> _Phänomenalität = Erscheinungshaftigkeit
> phenomenality = __phenomenality
> _



Yes, I know that... 

But I have to use two different words, anyway... So, I assume, by his excuse ("Verzeihung für das Wort") that _Erscheinungshaftigkeit_ doesn't sound natural as _Phenomenalität_, nor actually exists... Hence, I'm just trying to find an equally unnatural word in Portuguese (via English).


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## perpend

I want to say something like "semblant nature".

Maybe these words will help you understand Mauthner's construction: Boshaftigkeit / Bildhaftigkeit

I don't think "haften" comes into play. Not sure.


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## Schimmelreiter

_Erscheinungshaftigkeit _doesn't seem to be a Mauthnerist idiosyncrasy but sufficiently well-established in philosophical discourse. Perhaps _​the world's constitutedness by phenomena.
-edness_ might be *somewhat* similar to _-igkeit._


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## perpend

I thought about this for a long time, , before posting above. I thought about the "-(ed)ness" routes, but couldn't really try to make anything sound good in English.

 "erscheinungshaft" in itself is hard to translate in one word. I think you might need two words for that in English. When you try to add a "-ness" to that mess, , any attempt to create one word in English for "Erscheinungshaftigkeit" turns into a hot mess.

 So, that's why I suggested maybe a two-word (or three-word?) solution, with "nature" being the last word.

So ... just had to express my thought process.


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## bearded

''Mit dieser Phänomenalität oder (Verzeihung für das Wort) Erscheinungshaftigkeit der Welt''
my attempt
with this phenomenality or (sorry for the expression) phenomenonlike nature of the world
(I had also thought of ''intrinsic phenomenonlike nature'', but it seems to be too heavy).


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## manfy

Since these are such odd words (in German and in English), I had to look them up.
I first thought, phenomenality might be related to phenomenal, in the sense of extraordinary or special. But it's not so, at least not directly.
It relates to Phenomenalism, i.e. the philosophical idea that objects can only be sensed the way they appear and not the way they actually are. And, I guess, this appearance (Erscheinung) is the phenomenon how this object presents itself to us. 
(Please don't ask me what that means. I'm still rolling my eyes and scratching my head myself!  )

Ergo: Erscheinungshaftigkeit = die Eigenschaft eines Objekts, erscheinungsbehaftet zu sein, wodurch ein Rückschluss auf tatsächliche, objektive Eigenschaften wie Form, Substanz, Qualität, etc. erschwert oder unmöglich wird. 
These are my own words, my own interpretation! I'm not sure if it's philosophically accurate!

It doesn't make much sense to me in the physical world, but that changes considerably when you apply it to abstract ideas.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> _Erscheinungshaftigkeit _doesn't seem to be a Mauthnerist idiosyncrasy but sufficiently well-established in philosophical discourse. Perhaps _​the world's constitutedness by phenomena.
> -edness_ might be *somewhat* similar to _-igkeit._



I thought it could be a neologism because I couldn't find it in any dictionary, nor in Wikipedia. But, of course, many established words in the field of philosophy are not to be found in dictionaries... 


perpend: 





> So, that's why I suggested maybe a two-word (or three-word?) solution, with "nature" being the last word.



phenomenic constitution of the world? phenomenic nature of the world? phenomenic consistence of the world? character of the world? (why 'nature' _in the end_, anyway?)

manfy: 





> It relates to Phenomenalism, i.e. the philosophical idea that objects can only be sensed the way they appear and not the way they actually are.


I think that is a possible interpretation, but, if we can't be sure this is actually it, we should not pull the interpretation in this direction, should we? (I mean, specifically: calling it a philosophical idea or doctrine)



> And, I guess, this appearance (Erscheinung) is the phenomenon how this object presents itself to us.



That makes sense too, but, as Schimmelreiter (#2), I think Mauthner  is just providing a synonym: Phenomenalität oder (was das gleiche ist) Erscheinunshaftigkeit der Welt.


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## bearded

@ Löwenfrau
Apparently, the adjective 'phenomenic' does not exist in English (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).
What a pity, 'fenomenico' is so useful in many a Romance language.
I would have liked ''natura fenomenica'', so I suggested 'phenomenonlike nature'. Probably you can say 'natura(leça?) fenoménica' in Portuguese...?


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## Löwenfrau

bearded man said:


> @ Löwenfrau
> Apparently, the adjective 'phenomenic' does not exist in English (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).
> What a pity, 'fenomenico' is so useful in many a Romance language.
> I woul have liked ''natura fenomenica'', so I suggested 'phenomenonlike nature'. Probably you can say 'natura(leça?) fenoménica' in Portuguese...?



I imagined that, and in Portuguese the word "fenomênico" is indeed very common... "natureza fenomênica", this could work.


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> I think that is a possible interpretation, but, if we can't be sure this is actually it, we should not pull the interpretation in this direction, should we? (I mean, specifically: calling it a philosophical idea or doctrine)


 Don't let the seemingly 'common sense'-style of Mauthner's writing fool you! He's following very much the academic style of philosophy - and 'common sense'-interpretation of academic philosophy is very often misplaced. I tripped over this bit several times, too.

Duden says: http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Phaenomenalismus
Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenalism
Mauthner says: "...haben ... gelehrt, daß die sekundären Qualitäten, d.h. ... Eigenschaften der Dinge *nicht objektiver Art sind*, *sondern subjektiver Art*; ..."
manfy says  : "...not what they are (objectively) but what they appear to be (subjectively)..."


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## Löwenfrau

You made your point, manfy, thank you. 
But does it have to change the translation? I mean, Phänomen and Erscheinung are both corrent words for phenomenon. In Portuguese that is tricky. We don't usually translate Erscheinung as "aparência" ("appearance"), because this leads to the idea of "mere appearance"... We usually translate both Phänomen and Erscheinung as "fenômeno". Do you think there is a problem in rendering Mauthner's usage of both words as "fenômeno"? Like: _fenomenalidade_ e natureza _fenomênica_ do mundo?

By the way: I was searching in German wiki, and there is no allusion to the expression "Erscheinungshaftigkeit" in the article "Phenomenalismus"... Are you sure the expression is fundamentally connected to this philosophical point of view?


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> By the way: I was searching in German wiki, and there is no allusion to the expression "Erscheinungshaftigkeit" in the article "Phenomenalismus"... Are you sure the expression is fundamentally connected to this philosophical point of view?


Yes, that's not surprising!
"Erscheinungshaftigkeit" sounds very much like a self-made word - which is legitimate in German, BTW. And that also explains the comment "Verzeihung für das Wort". It's rather incomprehensible without specific context that attaches meaning to it. 
I browsed the term and it brought up quite some results (all of which made sense within the 2-line browser preview. Therefore I assume it must have become a reasonably common word in some circles - but not in 'normal' language!)

Quite similar to "Phänomenalität", actually. Without any context, I would - quite rigthly - assume, it is the noun created from the adjective "phänomenal" and as such it inherits its core meaning. But this would make little sense in this context, hence it must have its own specific meaning.


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## berndf

Erscheinung has a strong connotation of the unreal. It evokes connotations of deceit or it can also mean apparition of a ghost. What you need is a word in your target language that conveys as much of these connotations as possible. Concerning the epistemological context, manfy's description in #8 is correct. The topic is what is called "the problem of induction", i.e. 1) how can we derive laws of nature from individual observations? and 2) how can we know these laws that prima facie only describes the our perceptions correspond to real things that exist outside of our perceptions (Kant's "Dinge an sich")? Some philosophers like Lock think that 1) can be solved but not 2) and that we have to content ourselves with knowledge about appearances and cannot assume we would even know anything about "real" objects nor whether the exist in the first place.


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## manfy

I just did some more browsing and found this on google books:_... Kant's theoretical philosophy, he calls "the idea of the appearableness [*Erscheinungshaftigkeit*] of our being-there in the division between subject and object, ...
._​I'd say, appearableness is equally awkward, just like *Erscheinungshaftigkeit* ! 

PS: Since Kant used that word, I'm sure you should be able to find an established Portuguese word for it too if you browse through some translations of Kant!

PPS: Maybe something like "...possibilidade de manifestar-se (*Erscheinungshaftigkeit*), o mundo encontra..."
(Just enter "Kant Erscheinungshaftigkeit Portuguese" into google and you should get this and maybe other results)


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## berndf

I don't think Kant used this word. He used the word _Erscheinungen _in the sense of sensual perceptions very frequently but not _Erscheinungshaftigkeit_. This term only appears in secondary literature about Kant.


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## manfy

berndf said:


> I don't think Kant used this word. He used the word _Erscheinungen _in the sense of sensual perceptions very frequently but not _Erscheinungshaftigkeit_. This term only appears in secondary literature about Kant.


 I had the same impression.
I found quite some academic texts and papers where Kant and _Erscheinungshaftigkeit_ were used in the same sentence, but actually not a single genuine text from Kant where that word is actually used!


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## Löwenfrau

> Erscheinung has a strong connotation of the unreal. It evokes connotations of deceit or it can also mean apparition of a ghost. What you need is a word in your target language that conveys as much of these connotations as possible.



Not necessarily. Kant uses _Erscheinung_ as a synonym of phenomenon. Yes, Erscheinungen are all the objects that can be observed, but they are objectives, not ghosts, not unreal, not deceits.
I truly don't think that Mauthner is thinking in a ghost-character of the world here. Like Kant, he stresses that _we can only know what is a possible object of experience: Erscheinungen._


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Kant uses _Erscheinung_ as a synonym of phenomenon. Yes, Erscheinungen are all the objects that can be observed, but they are objectives, not ghosts, not unreal, not deceits.
> I truly don't think that Mauthner is thinking in a ghost-character of the world here. Like Kant, he stresses that _we can only know what is a possible object of experience: Erscheinungen._


which is why I submitted 





Schimmelreiter said:


> _the world's constitutedness by phenomena.
> -edness_ might be *somewhat* similar to _-igkeit._


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## Löwenfrau

> Maybe something like "...possibilidade de manifestar-se (*Erscheinungshaftigkeit), o mundo encontra..."
> (Just enter "Kant Erscheinungshaftigkeit Portuguese" into google and you should get this and maybe other results)*



Thanks for the suggestion. I've found two occurrences: the one you already posted "possibilidade de manifestar-se" and "intuicidade", translation of _Erscheinungshaftigkeit _by Karl Jaspers. (And Karl Jaspers is one of Kant's acclaimed commentators, so he quite probably used the word knowing that Kant himself did it). "Intuicidade" would be "intuitionability" (German "anschaubarkeit"?), "possibility to be intuited".


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## Löwenfrau

"appearable nature of the world" (natureza aparecível do mundo), or "appearability" (aparecibilidade) - maybe this captures the meaning...


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I've found two occurrences: the one you already posted "possibilidade de manifestar-se" and "intuicidade", translation of _Erscheinungshaftigkeit _by Karl Jaspers. (And Karl Jaspers is one of Kant's acclaimed commentators, so he quite probably used the word knowing that Kant himself did it). "Intuicidade" would be "intuitionability" (German "anschaubarkeit"?), "possibility to be intuited".


I don't know who did the translation. You can't possibly say _the world's "Anschaubarkeit"._ Kant's very point is that the _res per se _is NOT _"anschaubar"_. Only inasmuch as we sense phenomena can we conclude what the world may be like.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> I don't know who did the translation. You can't possibly say _the world's "Anschaubarkeit"._ Kant's very point is that the _res per se _is NOT _"anschaubar"_. Only inasmuch as we sense phenomena can we conclude what the world may be like.




Yes, but I think that when he says "Erscheinungshaftigkeit" he already is talking about the world only from the phenomenal point of view. In this sense, "Anschaubarkeit" would be perfectly fine.


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## Schimmelreiter

This is the sentence:
_Mit dieser Phänomenalität oder (Verzeihung für das Wort) Erscheinungshaftigkeit der Welt war den vorhin erwähnten Sprachgewohnheiten, Eigenschaften zu substantivieren, ihr Recht abgesprochen.
_I don't think you can say _Mit dieser Phänomenalität oder (Verzeihung für das Wort) Anschaubarkeit der Welt _when _Anschaubarkeit_ is the *opposite *of _Phänomenalität_.

The world can't be looked at, only the phenomena conveyed by our senses can be. If you will, the brain looks at what phenomena the senses convey but neither it nor the senses can look at the world since it's *not* _anschaubar_.


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## Löwenfrau

But then again, you are reading 'Welt' as 'Welt an sich'. If so, I agree with you, of course. But I'm more inclined to read it as 'Welt als Phänomen/ Erscheinung". So, ok, not Anschaubarkeit, but "appearability" as I posted above.


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## Schimmelreiter

I can't say for Portuguese obviously but _appearable/appearability _is one of the ugliest creatures ever, presupposing a transitive _to appear something._


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## Schimmelreiter

What about _the appearance-impartedness of the world _?

​The world is imparted to us through appearances.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> I can't say for Portuguese obviously but _appearable/appearability _is one of the ugliest creatures ever, presupposing a transitive _to appear something._



Portuguese "aparecer" is intransitive, like "show up" ("You must show up", we'd say "You must appear").




> What about _the appearance-impartedness of the world ?
> 
> ​The world is imparted to us through appearances._



That sounds fine indeed, but doesn't work in Portuguese.


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Portuguese "aparecer" is intransitive, like "show up" ("You must show up", we'd say "You must appear").


So how can it be turned into an _-able-_type adjective? _Something appearable/something that can be appeared. _


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> So how can it be turned into an _-able-_type adjective? _Something appearable/something that can be appeared. _




I'm not sure about English, but in Portuguese "appearable" can mean "something that can 'appear' (show up)" (active subject, not passive).


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## manfy

I don't quite like the word 'to appear or appearance' because it has 2 core meanings:
a) to come into view or to come into being, to emerge
b) to look as if, to seem, to give the impression

Erscheinungshaftigkeit embodies meaning b), I think.
Last night I was trying to find an exact definition of Erscheinungshaftigkeit, but I couldn't find a single entry with a specific description.
Therefore I made my own (based on all the different papers I browsed through):_
Erscheinungshaftigkeit beschreibt:
_​_* dass eine Sache eine Erscheinung hat (= mit den menschlichen Sinnen wahrnehmbar ist)
__* dass diese Erscheinung jedoch nur als Phänomen, d.h. als sinnlich wahrnehmbare Empfindung, der Sache verstanden wird und *nicht die Sache selbst "ist"*.
_​
_PS: "mit menschlichen Sinnen wahrnehmbar" inkludiert in unserer modernen Zeit auch alle wissenschaftlichen Instrumente, die naturwissenschaftliche Erscheinungen wie Elektrizität, Magnetismus, sub-atomare Partikel messen können, welche sich den direkten Sinnen des Menschen entziehen, denn all diese Instrumente basieren auf den menschlichen Sinnen der Wahrnehmbarkeit.
_
_Sie sind jedoch exklusive aller Sachen und Erscheinungen, die sich jenseits unserer physischen Wahrnehmbarkeit befinden, wie Willenskraft, Glaubenskraft, Liebe, etc. - kurz, Phänomene, deren Existenz zwar schlecht bestritten werden kann, die jedoch wissenschaftlich schlecht beschrieben werden können und damit als nicht messbar gelten, folglich von der Naturwissenschaft als rein chemisch-biologische Effekte erklärt und abgetan werden. 

_Based on this, the translation "possibilidade de manifestar-se", i.e. the possibility or ability to manifest itself is not quite right. It should actually read: the nature of manifesting itself (natureza de manifestar-se?) This would work particularly well, if "manifestar-se" has a strong connotation that it is a mere manifestation/impression/perception and not the actual object itself.

I know, that's much to ask, but rest assured, also the German word is not really self-explanatory! It leads the reader's thoughts in the right direction, but in the end it's anybody's guess what you make out of it. 
Maybe that's why it's so hard to find a clear definition in writing??!!


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## Löwenfrau

hi manfy, everything you said is perfect, but there is only one thing I don't fully agree: 





> I don't quite like the word 'to appear or appearance' because it has 2 core meanings:
> a) to come into view or to come into being, to emerge
> b) to look as if, to seem, to give the impression
> 
> Erscheinungshaftigkeit embodies meaning b), I think.



I think it embodies both. Why? Because of Kant distinction between thing in itself and phenomenon. Things in itself can never appear to us. But phenomenon are not only those actual phenomenon that we see right now or that we saw sometime, and they are certainly not _mere appearances_ (illusions): phenomenon are all possible phenomenon, objects that _can_ appear to us. That's why Kant says that we can "predict" and "induce" experiments. Ok: this is not your whole meaning 1): perhaps not "come into being", but perhaps "to emerge" (yes, to emerge as phenomenon, although a better word for that is "manifestation", as you said), and certainly "to come into view". A phenomenon can  come into view either as it truly is, or as it isn't (and deceive us). Thing in itself is untouched. 
The only thing I don't like about "manifestation" is that it makes no direct and necessary reference to our senses and perception. I mean, something doesn't necessarily manifest itself _to us_. The reference goes more in the direction of the object (even as something per se) than in the direction of the subject.


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## berndf

I also don't see the problem with the two different connotations of _appear _(_emerge_ and _seem_). German _erscheinen _has the same two connotations. If there is a possibility to misunderstand the context in English that this possibility exists in German as well. So, there should be no problem. On the contrary, I agree with Löwenfrau that evoking the _emerge _connotation isn't necessarily undesirable.


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## manfy

After rethinking this I realized, it's not the base word that bothered me so much but the way it is turned into a noun._a) to come into view or to come into being, to emerge
_​_b) to look as if, to seem, to give the impression
_​
Actually definition b) implies definition a), because to be able to "appear as something else than what it is" it must be first in view. 

The English appearability means the ability to appear, hence it forces my thoughts toward definition a). A German word that has the same effect is Erscheinungsfähigkeit or maybe Erscheinbarkeit.

Erscheinungshaftigkeit, on the other hand, comes from erscheinungshaft, i.e. mit einer Erscheinung behaftet, and that guides my thoughts very much towards definition b) - even without knowing the precise philosophical definition of the word. 

One English word that might convey a similar sense as Erscheinungshaftigkeit might be "perceivableness". 
But anyways, since English is not your target language, there's probably not much point in haggling over the "perfect English translation".
Nevertheless, I hope this discussion provided you with some good ideas for Portuguese!


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## Löwenfrau

Thanks manfy. Actually, I was considering "perceivableness", which would be in Portuguese "perceptibilidade".


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