# EN: if I would have known [sic]



## francis0077

On entend de plus en plus la forme du conditionnel après if en anglais. Est-elle acceptable? Une de mes grammaires indique qu'elle est "colloquial" donc pas fausse.
EX: If I would have konwn
(au lieu du traditionnel : " If I had known")


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## lingogal

Ça se dit de plus en plus, mais grammaticalement, c'est faux. Même en français, on entend des fois "Si j'aurais su..." eek, mais là aussi, c'est faux, n'est-ce pas?


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## geostan

lingogal said:


> Ça se dit de plus en plus, mais grammaticalement, c'est faux. Même en français, on entend des fois "Si j'aurais su..." eek, mais là aussi, c'est faux, n'est-ce pas?



Absolument.


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## baker589

Je ne l'ai pas entendu. Est-ce que c'est courant aux États Unis?


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## kkkk4444

Je ne dirais pas qu'elle est acceptable - 'If I had known' est meilleure


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## L'Inconnu

baker589 said:


> Je ne l'ai pas entendu. Est-ce que c'est courant aux États Unis?




You mean something like:

"I wish I would have met you?'

Sounds normal to me, albeit a rather obvious grammatical flaw.


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## mplsray

baker589 said:


> Je ne l'ai pas entendu. Est-ce que c'est courant aux États Unis?


 
À ce sujet, dans son article _would have for had, The American Heritage _
_Book of English Usage_ dit: 



> In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use _would have_ in place of the subjunctive _had_ in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as _If she would have_ (instead of _if she had_) _only listened to me, this would never have happened._ But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing.


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## baker589

It sounds really strange to me! Probably best to avoid saying it.


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## Maître Capello

On dirait que cette phrase vient de la traduction anglaise de _La Guerre des boutons_…


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## L'Inconnu

mplsray said:


> À ce sujet, dans son article _would have for had, The American Heritage _
> _Book of English Usage_ dit:



I recommend French speakers study

"if clauses-the traditional rules"

"were" is used fairly often by most American speakers. 

"If I were you... I would..."


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## djamal 2008

L'Inconnu said:


> I recommend French speakers study
> 
> "if clauses-the traditional rules"
> 
> "were" is used fairly often by most American speakers.
> 
> "If I were you... I would..."





We use the form : Had I known it would rain, I wouldn't have come.

Also, were I to be invited, I wouldn't be able to make it.


We say  I wish  I met you before, not  I wish I would have met you, here you are tying up a wish and a condition, which doesn't make any sense to me.


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## geostan

djamal 2008 said:


> We say  I wish  I met you before, not  I wish I would have met you, here you are *tieding??* up a wish and a condition, which doesn't make any sense to me.



I would not say this; I would say:

I wish I *had met* you before.


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## L'Inconnu

Well, if French speakers are curious to know what actually comes out of an American’s mouth. Let’s say that you go to your friend’s house at 1:00. A little while later, at 1:30, it starts raining. At this point you say:Well, if I had known it _was going to rain_, I wouldn’t have come. 
Alors, si j’avais su qu’il _allait pleuvoir_, je ne serais pas venu. ​Do French speakers use this construction?


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## Maître Capello

L'Inconnu said:


> Do French speakers use this construction?


Yes, we do.


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## Dzienne

"If I would have known" est maladroit, mais oui, il y ont des personnes qui utilisent ça.  On peut dire (informellement), "If ida known".  Ce n'est pas trouvé souvent dans l'écriture.  Dans l'écriture et le discours qui est plus correcte, ce serait plutôt, "If I knew" ou "If I had known".


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## baker589

J'ai essayé de trouver un exemple où on dit 'if I knew...' mais sans succès.  Est-ce que vous pouvez donner une possibilté? A mon avis, 'if I knew...' est un peu familier.


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## the-quality-man-4

lingogal said:


> Ça se dit de plus en plus, mais grammaticalement, c'est faux. Même en français, on entend des fois "Si j'aurais su..." , mais là aussi, c'est faux, n'est-ce pas?


Pourquoi c'est faux????!!!!!!! puis-je avoir une explication.


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## aztlaniano

Dzienne said:


> ""If I knew" ou "If I had known".


Or "Had I known..." (as Djamal has pointed out above).


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## Dzienne

baker589 said:


> J'ai essayé de trouver un exemple où on dit 'if I knew...' mais sans succès.  Est-ce que vous pouvez donner une possibilté? A mon avis, 'if I knew...' est un peu familier.



Peut-être c'est un Amercainisme ? Par exemple, "If I knew you were going to the party, I would have called you so we wouldn't both wear this dress!"


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## L'Inconnu

Dzienne said:


> Peut-être c'est un Amercainisme ? Par exemple, "If I knew you were going to the party, I would have called you so we wouldn't both wear this dress!"



Sounds like a typical sentence to me. I take it she should said:

If I had known...


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## baker589

Dzienne said:


> Peut-être c'est un Amercainisme ? Par exemple, "If I knew you were going to the party, I would have called you so we wouldn't both wear this dress!"



I think it must be.  I know I would definitely say _If I'd known_ here, and I expect most other BE speakers would.  The use of pluperfect and perfect in BE and AE has been discussed quite recently, and I think the outcome was that the British use the pluperfect more often than Americans.


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## baker589

the-quality-man-4 said:


> Pourquoi c'est faux????!!!!!!! puis-je avoir une explication.



Here is a link that explains/gives examples of if clauses:


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## lingogal

Here is an explanation from the previously-cited book:
*
would have for had.*  In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use _would have_ in place of the subjunctive _had_ in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as _If she would have_ (instead of _if she had_) _only listened to me, this would never have happened._ But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amount—but 16 percent—accepts it in the sentence _I wish you would have told me about this sooner.

_I wouldn't go so far as to say that the incorrect usage is an "Americanism", but probably more Americans than Brits speak this way, alas!


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## jann

baker589 said:


> J'ai essayé de trouver un exemple où on dit 'if I knew...' mais sans succès.  Est-ce que vous pouvez donner une possibilté? A mon avis, 'if I knew...' est un peu familier.


Not at all informal, simply a different tense.   Compare: 

Comment to a friend about a third friend, as the waiter arrives:
_"John just stepped out to take a phone call! *If I knew* what he wanted, I would order a drink for him."

vs.

_Remembering the situation later:
_John had just stepped out to take a phone call!  If I had known what he wanted, I would have ordered a drink for him.
_


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## the-quality-man-4

Thanks for getting back to me,Baker.


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## L'Inconnu

jann said:


> Not at all informal, simply a different tense.   Compare:
> 
> Comment to a friend about a third friend, as the waiter arrives:
> _"John just stepped out to take a phone call! *If I knew* what he wanted, I would order a drink for him."
> 
> vs.
> 
> _Remembering the situation later:
> _John had just stepped out to take a phone call!  If I had known what he wanted, I would have ordered a drink for him.
> _



Well, your sentences are grammatically correct. What about this typical phrase:If I _knew_ what he wanted I _would have_ ordered a drink.​What about phrases like:
I _called_ her before I _went_ to her house
After I _had_ a cup of coffee, I _went_ to work​


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## jann

L'Inconnu said:


> Well, your sentences are grammatically correct. What about this typical phrase:If I _knew_ what he wanted I _would have_ ordered a drink.​


This is precisely the "typical phrase" we're discussing in this thread! 

To summarize what has been said so far, people seem to feel that, "If I knew what he wanted, I would have ordered him a drink" is common enough in spoken and even in written English (perhaps more so in some parts of the world than others).... but that from the point of view of what would be considered strictly grammatically correct, we should instead say, "If I had known what he wanted, I would have ordered him a drink."



			
				L'Inconnu said:
			
		

> What about phrases like:  I _called_ her before I _went_ to her house, After I _had_ a cup of coffee, I _went_ to work


These sentences have nothing to do with the topic of the thread established by the question in post #1 (_"if I would have known..."_).  If you want to discuss them, please open a separate thread.


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## baker589

Thanks for clearing that up for me jann! I really couldn't think of a sentence with it in, by now you've given one I can see it's right.


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