# Okula gittim zaman



## rupertbrooke

I find Turkish temporal clauses a bit of a nightmare! I asked a Turkish-speaking friend, who can neither read nor write Turkish but who is a fluent speaker, how she would say 'when I went to school' & her reply was the above. Is it correct? Or should it be '(Benim) okula gıttiğim Zaman)'? Most textbooks give complicated explanations of Turkish syntax & colloquial courses always trot out 'the correct way' of speaking, like 'istiyorum' for 'istiyom, which seems much commoner in my limited experience! Then there is 'Bir yere gidecek miyim (? gideceğim zaman) erken kalkarım.' Can I please have some help to guide me through the maze. I want to speak 'colloquial Turkish' not bookish correctness, however necessary the latter may be for accurate writing & comprehension of the written language.


----------



## Rallino

You're right: "Okula gittim zaman" makes no sense, it should be _gittiğim zaman_.

_"Bir yere gidecek miyim erken kalkarım_" makes no sense either. You can say it in two sentences: _Bir yere gidecek miyim? Erken kalkarım. _or _Bir yere mi gideceğim? Erken kalkarım_. -- wherein the speaker gives a sample of their thought process and insunates that they would ask themselves if they're going somewhere and act accordingly, which makes sense. But not the way you wrote it in one single sentence.

This can be done in past tense, though: _Bir yere gittim mi ilk işim hemen tuvalete gitmek olur_. (Whenever/Once I've arrived at some place, the first thing I do is go to the restroom,) where the reasoning is the same as in the previous example, but this has become an expression nowadays, and it's colloquially acceptable. I wouldn't like to read it in a book, though, unless it's part of a dialogue.

Regarding *istiyom*:

We should draw the line between what's _colloquial _and what's _dialectal_. There is the colloquial language, like "gidicez mi" instead of _gidecek miyiz_. This is the same colloquialness(?) when you say _gonna_ instead of _going to_. Anyone could say both in any situation as long as it's not written_. _And then there is the dialectal/ghetto speech which just shows a lack of education, such as _istiyom, _which is like saying _I ain't done nothing _instead of I haven't done anything. Not everyone would say the former.

So let's clear that out. The problem with _İstiyom_ isn't just that it's colloquial. You won't sound cool if you say that.


----------



## rupertbrooke

Thanks, Rallino, this is just what I was looking for. I presume that gittim mi is a question. I am glad that istiyorum is correct & to be imitated. I have noted on the Manisa Turkish site that the future is often abraded in quick speech e.g. Gideceğim  gidicem  I will go
Gideceğiz  gidicez - we will go
Yazacağım yazıcam I will write
Yazacağız We will write
Güleceğim gülecem I will laugh
Güleceğiz gülecez We will laugh.

I have greatly valued your comments. It is just that there does not seem to be any ready help for these sticky problems, like temporal clauses.


----------



## Gemmenita

rupertbrooke said:


> I find Turkish temporal clauses a bit of a nightmare! I asked a Turkish-speaking friend, who can neither read nor write Turkish but who is a fluent speaker, how she would say 'when I went to school' & her reply was the above. Is it correct? Or should it be '(Benim) okula gıttiğim Zaman)'?(...)



Hi Rupertbrooke,
Since you say that she is a _fluent_ speaker, she has certainly said 'gitti*ğ*im zaman' but when pronounced so _fast,_ it can be _heard_ : gittim zaman !


----------



## rupertbrooke

Thanks, Gemmenita!


----------



## emre0066

Hi Rupertbrooke! 



rupertbrooke said:


> Gideceğim  gidicem  I will go
> Gideceğiz  gidicez - we will go
> Yazacağım yazıcam I will write
> Yazacağız We will write
> Güleceğim gülecem I will laugh
> Güleceğiz gülecez We will laugh.



In fact, all these pronunciations are correct and they are not dialectal or something.

Let's agree on this first. Turkish is not a language that is spoken as it is written.

In modern Turkish, the letter ğ lengthens the preceding vowel in a word and it has no sound itself. For example, the word yağmur is pronounced as ya:mur.

But sometimes, actually most of the time, this letter does more than just lengthening the preceding vowel. Let's have a look at the following examples.

kağıt / ka:t (kâat)
ağız / a:az
sağır / sa:ar

The rule is if Ğ is between A and I, A lengthens and I is dropped and not pronounced.

There is also another case that if Ğ is between E and İ, or between E and E, it is pronounced as Y.

eğer / eyer
beğendi / beyendi

eğitim / eyitim
değirmen / deyirmen

To be honest, sometimes I pronounce it as Y sometimes just lengthen the preceding vowel. So it is all up to you how you prefer to pronounce. I'm sure no one will ever think that there is something wrong with your pronunciation during the conversation. Both are okay.

But when it comes to the word *değil*, we'd better stop and take a deep breath! değil is pronounced as *di:l*.  There is no any rules going on here. We can consider this as an exception. But most of the people, even the educated ones, pronounce this word incorrectly and say deil or deyil.

Now let's come to your example. When we pronounce gideceğim, we say gidice:m. You may ask "But the letter ğ is between E and İ. Why is the rule you have mentioned above is not valid here?" I don't know the answer either. All I know is this is how it is pronounced correctly. Also you may notice that the letter e before c has transformed into i.

More example:

gideceğim  gidice:m (e>i)
gideceğiz    gidice:z
yazacağım  yazıca:m (a>ı)
yazacağız   yazıca:z
güleceğim  gülüce:m  (e>ü)
güleceğiz   gülüce:z
döveceğim dövüce:m (e>ü)
soracağım  soruca:m (a>u)

I have given three general cases above. But the first and the last one is extremely important. If you say kaıt instead of ka:t for kağıt, this is totally wrong. Or if you say gideceim, or gidiceim for gideceğim, this is wrong as well! There are many people out there - and most of them are educated - making these mistakes unintentionally and thinking that pronouncing these words as they are written is the right way.

I remember when I was in high school, if one of us in the class were to say ...ceim, ...caım, for ...ceğim, and ...cağım in Literature class, it would drive our teacher crazy.  Same for kağıt, and değil.

I hope what I have written is useful to you. Lastly, I want you to know that before writing this post, I contacted the lecturer in Turkish from who I used to take classes at the university, and he approved of all I have said here.

Regards.

(edit: one more example)


----------



## rupertbrooke

I appreciate the immense amount of effort you have put in on my behalf in your answer to my query, including consulting your university lecturer for me. You have also answered several additional points which have been at the back of my mind, particularly the pronunciation of a before ğ, for I have notıced that in the phrase otobüs durağı, durağı is pronounced dura: & not dura:ı. Many words seem to be pronounced slightly differently from the way they are spelt e.g. ben. It seems that before l, n & r, 'e' is pronounced in certain words as a vowel between a & e [IPA æ?]. Moreover, değil mi I hear distinctly pronounced as dimi!
 I shall digest what every contributor has submitted. Particular thanks to you for this detailed entry.


----------



## emre0066

I'm glad you have found the post useful!

Yes, the correct pronunciation of 'durağı' is dura:

And you are right that there are so many words being pronounced differently from the way they are spelled. Apart from the grammatical rules I have mentioned above, another reason why many words are pronounced differently is because most of the words used in modern Turkish have been borrowed from other languages such as Arabic and Farsi. E.g. mide (stomach). It is pronounced as mi:de.

Yes, in everyday conversations, I don't bother to say 'di:l mi?', and just say 'di mi?' or 'de mi?' in the same sense. They are very common in everyday Turkish. But keep in mind that when reading 'değil mi?' it is 'di:l mi?.


----------



## RimeoftheAncientMariner

Hello There )

Btw,

"okula gittiğim zaman " would roughly correspond to

" By the time I go to school "


----------

