# Bisitî altın (Osmanlıca)



## dudasd

I found this in a book of a recent date. After some persistant Google search, I found it in Evliya Çelebi's Seyâhatnâme, but he just mentions it with no explanation. Does someone happen to know the meaning or the etymology of the word "bisiti"?

I apologize because of somewhat unusual questions I am posting here, but I have a task to do.  Thank you in advance.


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## Torontal

بیست bist in Persian means _twenty_, for its etymology see بیست - Wiktionary

Regarding the occurance of the word _bisti (or bisîtî,_ it is the same word with diff transliteration into Latin script_)_ in the Seyahatname, according to Robert Dankoff's _An Evliya Çelebi Glossary/Evliya Çelebi Seyahatnamesi Okuma Sözlüğü_ it refers to "a Persian coin"/"bir İran sikkesi":



> *bistî* bir İran sikkesi II 294a.30 'abbâsî ve bistîler, 297b.30 kırk tümen bistî, 302a.35, 314a.21, IV
> 292b.22 bistî-yi şâhî = yigirmi akça, 295a.7 'abbâsî ve bistîlerinde. Krş. _Cambridge History
> of Iran 6:562_



And according to the Cambridge History of Iran vol 6 p 562. it was a silver coin minted under Abbas I worth *20* dinars. 

In your example I assume it could mean 20 golds, but maybe it is more clearer in the context


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## dudasd

Thank you very much, both for your answer and the information about this Dictionary, it is precious!

I think the author misled me by using that word as that it was not a number but an adjective; he says: "...levanten altını denilen taler, Hint altını, Bisitî ve Abbasî altınlarını bu ülkelerin piyasalarında dolaştırarak..."

The fact that abbasi was a silver coin and the author's formulation (plus his capital letters) made me think it denoted the origin of money (Indian golden coin, "Bisiti" and Abbasid golden coins...). I suppose I won't make a mistake if just I call it "Iranian" or "Persian" gold, for "bist" in this contex just wouldn't work.


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## sound shift

It looks as if you have a solution, but maybe I can help, because I possess a book of selections, in English translation, from Evliya Çelebi's _Seyâhatnâm_e. In which volume of the _Seyâhatnâme _does the word "bisitî" occur?


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## Torontal

dudasd said:


> Thank you very much, both for your answer and the information about this Dictionary, it is precious!
> 
> I think the author misled me by using that word as that it was not a number but an adjective; he says: "...levanten altını denilen taler, Hint altını, Bisitî ve Abbasî altınlarını bu ülkelerin piyasalarında dolaştırarak..."
> 
> The fact that abbasi was a silver coin and the author's formulation (plus his capital letters) made me think it denoted the origin of money (Indian golden coin, "Bisiti" and Abbasid golden coins...). I suppose I won't make a mistake if just I call it "Iranian" or "Persian" gold, for "bist" in this contex just wouldn't work.



Yes here it seems to mean the Bisiti as a type of Iranian coin, not an ammount. 
Another note, here in your text I think _Abbasi_ doesn't refer to the _Abbasid_ dynasty. It was also the name of another Iranian coin named after Shah Abbas I 
ABBÂSÎ - TDV İslâm Ansiklopedisi
ʿABBĀSĪ – Encyclopaedia Iranica

So personally i would keep their original name in translation too, something like _Iranian "bisiti" and "abbasi" gold coins_


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## dudasd

I really don't know what would it be in the English version, I found it in the Turkish edition (in the part starting with year 1640). But seeing that the word is explained in Dankoff's _Glossary_, I suppose it was not translated in the English original.


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## dudasd

Torontal said:


> So personally i would keep their original name in translation too, something like _Iranian "bisiti" and "abbasi" gold coins_



But _were_ there golden coins called bisiti and abbasi in 16th century?

This book has some historical inaccuracies, so I am trying to avoid them whenever it is possible. And somewhat earlier in the book, I have a footnote explaining abbasi as a silver coin.


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## sound shift

dudasd said:


> I really don't know what would it be in the English version, I found it in the Turkish edition (in the part starting with year 1640). But seeing that the word is explained in Dankoff's _Glossary_, I suppose it was not translated in the English original.


We may not be talking about the same editions: there is a glossary in my volume, but the word does not appear in it. Maybe that means that the passage containing the word was not selected for inclusion. I don't know.


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## dudasd

I don't have any of the English editions, so that was just my guess. In the Turkish edition, it's mentioned in descriptions of Uçkilise, Erdebil and some more. But now this appears to be more an issue of logic in this other book. I am rather ready to believe that the author used the word just because it sounded nicely archaic, without paying much attention at the historical facts.


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## Torontal

dudasd said:


> But _were_ there golden coins called bisiti and abbasi in 16th century?
> 
> This book has some historical inaccuracies, so I am trying to avoid them whenever it is possible. And somewhat earlier in the book, I have a footnote explaining abbasi as a silver coin.



I see and I get your problem, in fact it confused me too that they are called gold coins. Abbasi could be both gold and silver coin, but about the bisiti I only found reference to silver coins and I got the impression they both appeared only during the monetary reform of Shah Abbas I. Also the thalers which are called "Levantine gold" in your text were in fact silver coins too to my knowledge (thalers are silver, not gold coins Thaler - Wikipedia ). So these are good questions what could be in the author's mind )


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## dudasd

Torontal said:


> So these are good questions what could be in the author's mind )



You have the point. 

I will be satisfied with this I've learnt about bisiti, and try to do my best to reconcile that knowledge with the author's idea. Thank you very, very much.


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## sound shift

dudasd said:


> But _were_ there golden coins called bisiti and abbasi in 16th century?


According to Wikipedia, there were gold and silver coins called 'abbasi' in the 17th century (the century in which Evliya went on his travels). According to the same source, a bisti was one-tenth of an abbasi.


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## Torontal

sound shift said:


> It looks as if you have a solution, but maybe I can help, because I possess a book of selections, in English translation, from Evliya Çelebi's _Seyâhatnâm_e. In which volume of the _Seyâhatnâme _does the word "bisitî" occur?



In the 2nd and 4th volumes. 7 times in the 2nd volume, 2 times in the 4th volume if I counted it well ( I checked it in
_Evliya Çelebi Seyahatnâmesi_ / _Topkapı Sarayı Bağdat 304 Numaralı Yazmanın Transkripsiyonu_,_ dizini_ )


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## dudasd

Thank you very much, Torontal and sound shift. This was a great help, now I think I have an idea how to solve it.


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## sound shift

Thanks, Torontal and dudasd.

I looked for the 'Iranian' parts of the 2nd volume. The first of these in my book of selections* is about Tabriz. In it there is the following sentence:

"At our heels came _tumans _of _bisti _coins as bath money, …": "bisti" is left untranslated in my volume (the italics are not mine; they appear in the book).

* "An Ottoman Traveller - _Selections from the Book of Travels of Evliya Çelebi_ - Edited and translated by Robert Dankoff and Sooyong Kim"


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## Torontal

sound shift said:


> Thanks, Torontal.
> 
> I looked for the 'Iranian' parts of the 2nd volume. The first of these in my book of selections is about Tabriz. In it there is the following sentence:
> 
> "At our heels came _tumans _of _bisti _coins as bath money, …": "bisti" is left untranslated in my volume (the italics are not mine; they appear in the book).



Thanks, I think this might be the same as _Akîbimizce hammâm-bahâ kırk tümen bisitî ve bir zeyn rahtıyla küheylân-ı karaçabuk atı ve bir alaca aşkar yorga at ve yedi deve yükü me’kûlât [ü] meşrûbât [ve] müsmirrât hedâyâlar gelüp hânemiz ganîmet oldu. _In the Turkish text. (There it says: _At our heels 40 tumans of bisiti came as bath money and a very fast purebred Arab horse with an ornamented harness, and a... etc_)

I agree best to keep bis(i)ti untraslated as a currency name.


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## sound shift

Torontal said:


> Thanks, I think this might be the same as _Akîbimizce hammâm-bahâ kırk tümen bisitî ve bir zeyn rahtıyla küheylân-ı karaçabuk atı ve bir alaca aşkar yorga at ve yedi deve yükü me’kûlât [ü] meşrûbât [ve] müsmirrât hedâyâlar gelüp hânemiz ganîmet oldu. _In the Turkish text. (There it says: _At our heels 40 tumans of bisiti came as bath money and a very fast purebred Arab horse with an ornamented harness, and a... etc_)


Yes, it's the same!

You're a linguist and a scholar, Torontal!


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## Cahittinsan

*20* dinars. .


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