# Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi: yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai



## Abu Talha

Hello,

Can you say, "_yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_" for "This car needs to be washed"?

The reason I'm asking is that _dhonaa_ is transitive so I would think one should use _dhulnaa_ here, unless _waalaa_ can be used with either the subject or the object.

Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can you say, "_yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_" for "This car needs to be washed"?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that _dhonaa_ is transitive so I would think one should use _dhulnaa_ here, unless _waalaa_ can be used with either the subject or the object.
> 
> Thanks.



daee SaaHib, I shall take a guess and am of course open to corrections and criticism.

I think your sentence is possibly an Urdu adaptation of the Punjabi way of saying the same, "e gaDDii t_hoNR (v)aalii ho ga'ii e". I would say that if someone was being really picky, this (Urdu) sentence would be considered wrong and its literal English translation would be, "This car has become the one that washes"! (?) or even "This car is on the verge of becoming a washer" (?).

What would be alternative for "This car needs to be washed"? 

is gaaRii ko dhone kii zaruurat hai.


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## greatbear

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can you say, "_yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_" for "This car needs to be washed"?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that _dhonaa_ is transitive so I would think one should use _dhulnaa_ here, unless _waalaa_ can be used with either the subject or the object.
> 
> Thanks.



As QP said, it would mean rather "this car has now got the ability to wash"! Though since cars can't wash, your sentence would be understood. QP's proposed sentence is perfect, but looking at more idiomatic options, "yeh gaarii dhone kii ho gai hai" would fit the bill perfectly: it would mean that the car now needs washing.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Qureshpor, Greatbear. A few questions for you guys: 

1. Would you say using waalaa like this in Urdu or Hindi is grammatically incorrect? Can't we use the _waalaa_ after an infinitive to mean that it is about time for something, e.g., _maiN yih karne waalaa huuN_? What about _yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_? 
2. Whether or not it is correct, do you hear this type of construction a lot in Urdu/Hindi? The original sentence is one that I came up with myself, but perhaps it is Punjabi influence because Qureshpor Sb's example from Punjabi is definitely something I've heard.


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## Alfaaz

Couldn't one say "aey gaDDii thuLan (w)aalii ho ga'ii e" even in Punajbi which would be similar to the Urdu "_yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_" ? So not sure about whether or not it is influenced. The sentence, however, is commonly heard in addition to the other alternative given by Qureshpor.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Thanks Qureshpor, Greatbear. A few questions for you guys:
> 
> 1. Would you say using waalaa like this in Urdu or Hindi is grammatically incorrect? Can't we use the _waalaa_ after an infinitive to mean that it is about time for something, e.g., _maiN yih karne waalaa huuN_? What about _yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_?
> 2. Whether or not it is correct, do you hear this type of construction a lot in Urdu/Hindi? The original sentence is one that I came up with myself, but perhaps it is Punjabi influence because Qureshpor Sb's example from Punjabi is definitely something I've heard.




daee SaaHib, the suffix "vaalaa" is regularly used in situations where grammarians are most likely to make a big fuss.

mujhe yih vaalaa chaahiye vuh vaalaa nahiiN!

I need this one not that one!

Let's take your sentence first and then change its subject and verb.

yih gaaRii dhulne vaalii ho ga'ii hai.

This car has become one that is about to be washed.

yih bakrii marne vaalii ho ga'ii hai.

This goat has become one that is on the verge of dying.

Now the real question is this. Does "vaalaa" impart the meaning of need or necessity? I have my doubts.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> daee SaaHib, the suffix "vaalaa" is regularly used in situations where grammarians are most likely to make a big fuss.
> 
> mujhe yih vaalaa chaahiye vuh vaalaa nahiiN!
> 
> I need this one not that one!


 So grammarians don't like this?! I would be hard pressed to say it without waalaa if I wanted to give the same meaning.



> yih bakrii marne vaalii ho ga'ii hai.
> 
> This goat has become one that is on the verge of dying.


This is a good example. I think it would be impossible to say "m*aa*rne waali" because that would mean that the time has come for its being killed [by a human], not for its dying by itself. So perhaps it has to do with the nature of the verb. A car can not be washed by itself. Perhaps that is why _dhona_ works there?


> Now the real question is this. Does "vaalaa" impart the meaning of need or necessity? I have my doubts.


 Actually, I admit that my initial translation is very inaccurate and I only wrote it "needs to be" because I couldn't think of a better idiomatic way to say it in English. I think the meaning is more like the car has, over time, become so dirty that it has come to the point where it should be washed. (I still can't word it in English without an element of need: "should"!)


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## Abu Talha

Alfaaz said:


> Couldn't one say "aey gaDDii thuLan (w)aalii ho ga'ii e" even in Punajbi which would be similar to the Urdu "_yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_" ? So not sure about whether or not it is influenced. The sentence, however, is commonly heard in addition to the other alternative given by Qureshpor.


Thanks for your reply, Alfaaz. I don't speak Punjabi very well at all, but "_yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_" in Urdu sounds less common or more unusual than "aey gaDDii thuLan (w)aalii ho ga'ii e" in Punjabi. What do you think?


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## Alfaaz

> I think it would be impossible to say "m*aa*rne waali" because that would mean that the time has come for its being killed [by a human], not for its dying by itself.



_Couldn't this also mean/give the impression that the goat has become abusive, defensive, attacker, (like a bull or trained hunting dog)? مارنے والی / قاتل بکری اور چالیس چور _


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## Abu Talha

Alfaaz said:


> _Couldn't this also mean/give the impression that the goat has become abusive, defensive, attacker, (like a bull or trained hunting dog)? مارنے والی / قاتل بکری اور چالیس چور _


I never thought of that! You're very right, of course.

Also, just for clarification, when I said, "I think it would be impossible to say "maarne waali"...", I meant that it would be impossible to say "maarne waalii" and get the same meaning as "marne waalii", while it is apparently possible to say "dhone waalii" and "dhulne waalii" with the same meaning.


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## Alfaaz

> but "_yih gaaRii *dhulne* waalii ho gai hai_" in Urdu sounds less common or more unusual than "aey gaDDii thuLan (w)aalii ho ga'ii e" in Punjabi. What do you think?



Not sure! I guess it sounds somewhat common (depends on surroundings/people around a person)...others would probably opt to say "is gaaRi ko dhone/saaf karne/dhulai/safai ki zarurat hai"

As stated in the question about the goat, it could also give the impression that the car has become a "cleaning vehicle"...probably, or maybe not?


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## Qureshpor

Here is what one of the Urdu grammar writers (C.M.Naim) has to say about the suffix -vaalaa.

ghar-vaalaa = head of the household/husband
ghar-vaalii se = with the mistress of the house or the wife
baaje-vaale ko = to the person with the musical instrument

jaane-vaaloN ko = those who are going
pakaane-vaaloN ke = of those who cook

Examples of cooloquial usage "generally not found in standard texts".

achchhii-vaalii kitaab = the good book
baazaar-vaalaa khaanaa = the food brought from the market
aane vaaloN ne kahaa = Those who came, said.
jaane vaale chale ga'e = Those who were going have left

gaaRii jaane-vaalii hai = The train is about to leave

C.M. Naim does not mention the need/requirement/necessity type of meaning for "vaalaa".

How about..

yih gaaRii (ab) dhone ke laa'iq hai
yih gaaRii dhone-jog hai


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## Abu Talha

Thanks for the research Qureshpor Sb!


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## Faylasoof

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can you say, "_yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_" for "This car needs to be washed"?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that _dhonaa_ is transitive so I would think one should use _dhulnaa_ here, unless _waalaa_ can be used with either the subject or the object.
> 
> Thanks.


 daee SaaHib, we do indeed say this (_yeh gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_) to mean _yeh gaaRii dhulne waalii ho gai hai_ OR _yeh gaaRii dhulne waalii ho hai_ - and the latter has_ two meanings_: 1) This car needs to be / ought to be washed! 2) This car is about to be washed! The context tells you what is meant.


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## Abu Talha

Many thanks Faylasoof Sb. I also remembered that we say _dhone waale kapRe_ for the clothes meant for washing.


Faylasoof said:


> ... OR _yeh gaaRii dhulne waalii ho hai_ - and the latter has_ two meanings_: 1) This car needs to be / ought to be washed! 2) This car is about to be washed! The context tells you what is meant.


I don't think I've heard _ho hai_ before. Do you mean _hui hai_?


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## Faylasoof

daee said:


> Many thanks Faylasoof Sb. I also remembered that we say _dhone waale kapRe_ for the clothes meant for washing.


 Yes, we say this (_dhone waale kapRe_) and, as above, _dhulne waale kapRe _too!



daee said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> ... OR _yeh gaaRii dhulne waalii ho hai_ - and the latter has_ two meanings_: 1) This car needs to be / ought to be washed! 2) This car is about to be washed! The context tells you what is meant.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I've heard _ho hai_ before. Do you mean _hui hai_?
Click to expand...

 No! Sorry, a case of bad editing on my part! I meant: _yeh gaaRii dhulne waalii ho gaii hai _

We can express the same idea by these expressions, by replacing _waalii_ (_waalaa_ / _waale_) with قابل _qaabil_ or لائق _laai'q_:

_yeh gaaRii dhulne ke qaabil hai / ho gaii hai_
_yeh gaaRii dhulne ke laa’iq hai  / ho gaii hai_
_This car ‘deserves’ to be washed = __This car__ needs to be washed.  
_


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> We can express the same idea by these expressions, by replacing _waalii_ (_waalaa_ / _waale_) with قابل _qaabil_ or لائق _laai'q_:
> 
> _yeh gaaRii dhulne ke qaabil hai / ho gaii hai_
> _yeh gaaRii dhulne ke laa’iq hai / ho gaii hai_
> _This car ‘deserves’ to be washed = __This car__ needs to be washed.
> _



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib for clearing up yet another issue!

In post 12, I also suggested..

yih gaaRii (ab) dhone ke laa'iq hai

Is the following type of sentence used at all?

yih gaaRii dhone-jog hai 

I believe I got this usage from farhang-i-asfiya. In Punjab "jogaa/jogii" is used quite frequently, as in

e gaDDii t_hoNR jogii hai.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib for clearing up yet another issue!
> 
> _*In post 12, I also suggested..
> 
> yih gaaRii (ab) dhone ke laa'iq hai*_


 _*Welcome *__*QP SaaHIb!*__* Oh yes you are right!  I seemed to have missed this one! *_Anyway it is good that 2 people came up with it!


> Is the following type of sentence used at all?
> 
> _*yih gaaRii dhone-jog hai *_
> 
> I believe I got this usage from farhang-i-asfiya. In Punjab "jogaa/jogii" is used quite frequently, as in
> 
> e gaDDii t_hoNR jogii hai.


  This is an interesting one and I must say we don't have this usage! Actually, I'm wondering if some of the vocabulary that _farhang-i-asfiya _has also includes some Punjabi borrowings that may have been more prevalent / started and remained in the Delhi School (_dabistaan-e-dehli_) of Urdu, esp. the _dehlavi urdu_ of the first half of the 20th century. I think this never made it to our _dabistaan-e-lakhnau_! I can ask my elders if they've ever heard this.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Is the following type of sentence used at all?
> 
> yih gaaRii dhone-jog hai



In Hindi, yes. "Yeh gaarii (ab) dhone yogya hai".


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> In Hindi, yes. "Yeh gaarii (ab) dhone yogya hai".


 You mean western dialects of Hindi! According to QP SaaHIb it is there in 'western' Urdu too - _farhang-e-asafiyyah_ (Urdu lexicon) was compiled in Delhi which is good reason to accept that it was used in the Urdu of Delhi. But in the east we don't use this expression, whether it be the Urdu of Lucknow or the Awadhi dialect. I  don't think it is there in Bhojpuri either but I could ask.


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## greatbear

I don't really think, as far as Hindi is concerned, it's a question of dialects: "yogya" is one of those words appertaining to the so-called "shuddha" Hindi. I have certainly heard the word, anyway, from Biharis.


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## Faylasoof

I understand what you are saying but, there are Biharis and there are Biharis! The Biharis I know don't use it! What I'm saying is this is not common in the eastern dialects! One can always learn words that are used from one end of the country to the other, esp. given the vast reach of the media and shuddh Hindi teaching in schools.... and at the risk of repition, it seems to have   been _used in the Urdu of Delhi but not in our speech in Lucknow_. So I don't think this is a Hindi-Urdu issue, more like an issue of east-west dialects.


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## greatbear

Granted you've not heard of it in the eastern dialects, Faylasoof, but I find that surprising since the word "yogya" is heavy in usage in particular contexts: e.g., "shaadi ke yogya ladka dhoondhna" or even just "yogya ladka dhoondhna" (heavy also in Bollywood films in this particular context).


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can you say, "_yih gaaRii dhone waalii ho gai hai_" for "This car needs to be washed"?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that _dhonaa_ is transitive so I would think one should use _dhulnaa_ here, unless _waalaa_ can be used with either the subject or the object.
> 
> Thanks.




daee SaaHib, I forget to mention one or two points. Firstly, thank you for starting this thread. I have often thought about this kind of construction, e.g "The dishes need washing". This essentially means that the dishes are in need of washing or they require to be washed. In Punjabi we say, "p_haaNDe t_hoNR joge ne". We now know that it is perfectly alright to say "bartan dhone/dhulne vaale haiN". In my heart of hearts I neither find the Punjabi expression satisfactory nor the Urdu one. I am not sure if "vaalaa", "jog/yogya", "laa'iq" really convey the concept of "requirement" accurately


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> You mean western dialects of Hindi! According to QP SaaHIb it is there in 'western' Urdu too - _farhang-e-asafiyyah_ (Urdu lexicon) was compiled in Delhi which is good reason to accept that it was used in the Urdu of Delhi. But in the east we don't use this expression, whether it be the Urdu of Lucknow or the Awadhi dialect. I  don't think it is there in Bhojpuri either but I could ask.



Just to clarify, Faylasoof SaaHib. Whilst searching for a suitable equivalent for "need" in farhang-i-asifiya, I stumbled upon the word "kardanii", which you would of course know very well. Its meaning is given as:

karne ke laa'iq, karne-jog

This is where I got the idea from and I substituted "karne" with "dhone".


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> daee SaaHib, I forget to mention one or two points. Firstly, thank you for starting this thread. I have often thought about this kind of construction, e.g "The dishes need washing". This essentially means that the dishes are in need of washing or they require to be washed. In Punjabi we say, "p_haaNDe t_hoNR joge ne". We now know that it is perfectly alright to say "bartan dhone/dhulne vaale haiN". In my heart of hearts I neither find the Punjabi expression satisfactory nor the Urdu one. I am not sure if "vaalaa", "jog/yogya", "laa'iq" really convey the concept of "requirement" accurately


You're very welcome, Qureshpor SaaHib. It is I who have benefited from this discussion. Regarding your point about not finding this expression satisfactory, I was looking at it from another angle. The Urdu/Punjabi expression with _waalaa_ incorporates an element of the time having occurred for an action which "need" and "requirement" in English don't convey. As you mentioned earlier, we have "zaroorat" for expressing need. What do you think?


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> I am not sure if "vaalaa", "jog/yogya", "laa'iq" really convey the concept of "requirement" accurately



"yogya" and "laaiq" literally mean to deserve to be: the car deserves to be washed. One could also say here "gaarii dhone kaabil hai", though that would be a bit more idiomatic.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> "yogya" and "laaiq" literally mean to deserve to be: the car deserves to be washed. One could also say here "gaarii dhone kaabil hai", though that would be a bit more idiomatic.




yogya/jogaa: worthy/suitable

aap jogaa : suitable for you

laa'iq: able/capable/competent/qualified
         worthy/suitable

ke laa'q : worth

qaabil: able/capable/competent/qualified
          worthy/deserving

So, the commonality in the three words is "worthy/deserving/suitable". I am not suggesting that their use with car/clothes etc. is wrong. I just don't feel fully at easy with the sentences.

Going back to "yih gaaRii *dhone vaalii* ho ga'ii hai". One can analyse this sentence as..

This car has become *one for washing*

I know this sentence looks quite awkward. But we can and do say...

bataa'o! hai ko'ii yahaaN yih mushkil *kaam karne vaalaa*?

Tell me! Is there anyone here who is *one*/*up for doing* this difficult task?

= Tell me, is there anyone ready to do this difficult task?

Conclusion:

yih gaaRii dhone vaalii ho ga'ii hai.

This car has become ready for washing/This car is ready to be washed.

Could one say..

yih gaaRii dhone ke liye ho ga'ii hai?


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Could one say..
> 
> yih gaaRii dhone ke liye ho ga'ii hai?



Do you not need some kind of adjective here? yih gaaRii dhone ke liye _taiyaar_ ho ga'ii hai - or maybe taiyaar is the wrong word to use here, but you get my point.


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> Do you not need some kind of adjective here? yih gaaRii dhone ke liye _taiyaar_ ho ga'ii hai - or maybe taiyaar is the wrong word to use here, but you get my point.



Yes, I get your point loud and clear,Tony SaaHib. I think "ho ga'ii" is possibly the problem.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Going back to "yih gaaRii *dhone vaalii* ho ga'ii hai". One can analyse this sentence as..
> 
> This car has become *one for washing*
> 
> I know this sentence looks quite awkward. But we can and do say...
> 
> bataa'o! hai ko'ii yahaaN yih mushkil *kaam karne vaalaa*?
> 
> Tell me! Is there anyone here who is *one*/*up for doing* this difficult task?
> 
> = Tell me, is there anyone ready to do this difficult task?
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> yih gaaRii dhone vaalii ho ga'ii hai.
> 
> This car has become ready for washing/This car is ready to be washed.



I wouldn't analyse the two in the same way.
"karne wala" means rather the one who does something.
Thus "dhone wali" would mean the one who washes. Apparently the car is not doing the washing but is being washed.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> How about..
> yih gaaRii dhone-jog hai



I don't know exactly whether it is used in Urdu (I don't do it) but in Punjabi, we can say _gaDDii t_hon *jogii* e._


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I don't know exactly whether it is used in Urdu (I don't do it) but in Punjabi, we can say _gaDDii t_hon *jogii* e._



This was the catalyst for my suggestion. In addition "jogaa" is mentioned in my "Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English Dictionary" with the meanings "fit, suitable" and an example "aap jogaa" (Suitable for you).


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> This was the catalyst for my suggestion. In addition "jogaa" is mentioned in my "Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English Dictionary" with the meanings "fit, suitable" and an example "aap jogaa" (Suitable for you).


Very nice! This is how I have always understood it! 
Perhaps I was wary to use in Urdu out of unjustified fear to mingle Punjabi speech into my language. But the fact is that in our family it was not used. I'm wondering whether such usage one can find in Hindi? I think one can. Let's wait for the opinion of Hindi experts (however this thread is only for Urdu).


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Very nice! This is how I have always understood it!
> Perhaps I was wary to use in Urdu out of unjustified fear to mingle Punjabi speech into my language. But the fact is that in our family it was not used. I'm wondering whether such usage one can find in Hindi?



I had this kind of thought process in my mind when I started the thread (link below). Perhaps "jogaa" could be added to that thread.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2350682&highlight=Punjabi+words


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## panjabigator

Shall I edit the thread to include Punjabi and Hindi?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Shall I edit the thread to include Punjabi and Hindi?




Yes please, PG SaaHib.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _*Welcome *__*QP SaaHIb!*__* Oh yes you are right!  I seemed to have missed this one! *_Anyway it is good that 2 people came up with it!
> This is an interesting one and I must say we don't have this usage! Actually, I'm wondering if some of the vocabulary that _farhang-i-asfiya _has also includes some Punjabi borrowings that may have been more prevalent / started and remained in the Delhi School (_dabistaan-e-dehli_) of Urdu, esp. the _dehlavi urdu_ of the first half of the 20th century. I think this never made it to our _dabistaan-e-lakhnau_! I can ask my elders if they've ever heard this.




Here is a relevant sentence from "Betaal Pachiisii" (originally a Sanskrit work, translated into Braj Bhasha by Surat Naam Keshvar  and then into Urdu by Mazhar Ali Khan Vilaa and Lalu Jii Laal Kavi in 1805).

us besvaa ne apne man meN bichaaraa kih yih phal raajaa ke *dene-jog* hai.

That loose woman thought to herself that this fruit is worth giving to the King. (i.e worthy of the King)


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _*Welcome *__*QP SaaHIb!*__* Oh yes you are right!  I seemed to have missed this one! *_Anyway it is good that 2 people came up with it!
> This is an interesting one and I must say we don't have this usage! Actually, I'm wondering if some of the vocabulary that _farhang-i-asfiya _has also includes some Punjabi borrowings that may have been more prevalent / started and remained in the Delhi School (_dabistaan-e-dehli_) of Urdu, esp. the _dehlavi urdu_ of the first half of the 20th century. I think this never made it to our _dabistaan-e-lakhnau_! I can ask my elders if they've ever heard this.



Here is quote from DipTii Nazeer Ahmed's "banaatu_nna3sh".

bachche bahut chhoTe chhoTe haiN. kuchh kaam *karne-jog *nahiiN.

From Nur-ul-LuGhaat"..

kunbah meN ko'ii *is jogaa* nahiiN kih is musiibat meN un kaa saath de.

So, based on this usage, we could say..

yih gaaRii *dhone-jog* hai.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I don't know exactly whether it is used in Urdu (I don't do it) but in Punjabi, we can say _gaDDii t_hon *jogii* e._



luGhaatu_nnisaa3-1917 (Sayyid Ahmad Dihlavii) has "marne-jogaa" 

marne jogaa- maran haar-marne ke qaabil-jaan haar (musalmaan 3aurateN Haalat-i-xafagii meN marne jogaa boltii haiN).


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## panjabigator

I hear "maran jogā" weekly from my mother


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> I hear "maran jogā" weekly from my mother



Indeed! jogaa/joge/jogii is common usage in Punjabi.

k_har vich zahr khaaNR jogaa na'iiN te eh halvaa maNgdaa e peyaa!!


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