# Pronouncing the surname Czibor



## cisarro

Hello:

How can I pronounce the *Cz* in the surname Czibor? (Czibor Zoltán is a former Hungarian football player).


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## Zsanna

I haven't heard the name yet but if it goes according to the rules (99,5% sure), the "Cz" is pronunced exactly as if there were only a "c" at the beginning. 
It is just an old way of spelling that is kept up in family names. 

So a /ts/ like in *ts*ar.


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## cisarro

I think so. I was watching some old matches of Zoltán Czibor related in Hungarian in Youtube, and it sounds closer to /ts/ but I wasn't sure.

Thank you Zsanna


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## franknagy

The sound /ts/ like in *tsar *was denoted by "cz" in general until 1922. The "z" is unnecessary in the digraph, so since that time only the family names retained the "cz". E.g. my grandson's family name is _Maczkó_ but_ mackó_ means teddybear.


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## cisarro

Thank you Frank


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## franknagy

_Hydrophilus.piceus_
This water insect is named *csíbor* in Hungarian, pronounced with Spanish _ch_-.
 Take care with Hungarian and Polish _cz_ and _cz_. Hungarian is ts, Polish is _ch._


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## Zsanna

What Frank left out of the previous was that it is possbile that the name _Czibor_ comes from the name of the above mentioned insect as this old "cz" was pronounced as our present day "cs" (like ch in _such_) at a certain time (and by a certain group of people). 
I don't know whether it is really the case (it is difficult to look it up) but it is likely.
Thanks, frank, for the idea.


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## francisgranada

The name _Czibor _may also come from the Slavic given name _Ctibor _(eliminating the "t" as consonant clusters like "ct" at the beginning of the word did not exist in Hungarian).


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## franknagy

Zsanna, you are wrong.
The old Hungarian texts contained much more Latin words than the present ones. Therefore the sound of *tz*ar was denoted in the 19th century and before by cz because the Latin *c *might be prounounced as _*K*_, and the sound of *ch*ildren was denoted by ts  according to the old Hungarian orthography. The cz has changed to c and the ts has changed to c. The coincidence of _Czibor_ family and _csíbor _insect is false because the cz did never denote the sound of *ch*ildren in the Hungarian spelling.
Regards
            Frank


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## Zsanna

Frank, I only tried to decipher the reason for your comment (no.6) and I said I couldn't be sure whether it was right. (If the name originates before the 18th C, it is highly unlikely to be able to be sure.)

However, it is sure that the *cz* could be pronounced several ways, namely three, according to this from the Czuczor-Fogarasi Dictionary of Hungarian Language, including the one I mentioned above. (There are examples for it in the link like: czibe -> csibe, czihol -> csihol, etc.)


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## francisgranada

franknagy said:


> The sound /ts/ like in *tsar *was denoted by "cz" in general until 1922 ...


This may be true in general, but not generally. E.g. the famous "Pallas nagy lexikona" from 1893 uses simply "c" as we write it today.


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