# mangels eigener Konzeption



## sedmont

*Have I correctly translated the red German phrase into English? Thanks for any help.

Context: the text elsewhere repeatedly says that the SPD had no clear concept of socialization. *

Damit zeichnete sich auch für Württemberg eine Strategie ab, die der SPD-Politik im Reich ähnelte und mit der auch Wilhelm Blos keineswegs unzufrieden war: die Sozialisierungsfrage mangels eigener Konzeption zunächst einmal zu vertagen.

_Thus emerged in Württemberg a strategy that resembled the SPD policy in the empire. It was also a strategy with which Wilhelm Blos was by no means dissatisfied: that of postponing the socialization question for lack of a distinct conception of it._


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## JClaudeK

I would say:
mangels eigener Konzeption = for lack of an own conception


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## sedmont

JClaudeK, thanks very much.

In English one does not say "an own" -- perhaps "its own" -- but the context seems to want "clear" or "distinct" -- not "own." Is "clear" or "distinct" not possible?


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> but the context seems to want "clear" or "distinct" -- not "own." Is "clear" or "distinct" not possible?


The German context claims that they didn't have their own concept, i.e.a concept prepared and created by them. I cannot find any "clear". "Distinct" does not really fit either, because I understand it to focus on distinguishing it from someone else's rather than on focusing on the individual creative process.

_ for lack of their own conception_


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## anahiseri

*eigen* means *own*, you can't translate it differently. 

Kajjos suggestion 
_for lack of their own conception_
is very good


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## sedmont

Thanks very much Kajjo.



Kajjo said:


> The German context claims that they didn't have their own concept



In my first post above, I did not supply the context I was referring to .  By context I meant a lot of text that I have not posted here.  In that unposted text it frequently says that they had no clear or definite ideas about what 'socialization' meant.

Now, if one takes _that _context into account, is there any translation of "eigen" with some word like "definite" "specific" "particular" "clear" instead of "own"?


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> that they had no clear or definite ideas


Yes, they didn't have their owb concept, a proposal or plan ready. No way aroud "own", I am afraid.


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## sedmont

ok, thank you. In any case, you've just enlightened me as to how lack of "own" concept, while not the same as lack of a clear concept, is more closely related to lack of clear concept than I had noticed.


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## Kajjo

They simply cam empty-handed, without a proper concept. So they postponed the decision...


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## sedmont

Let me ask this. Does the German sentence mean that

1) they postponed the question because they didn't _have _a conception of it -- or

2) they postponed the question because, in a way, the main thing they cared about was that the conception be _their _conception, and they did not care quite as much about the substantive content of the the conception, so long as it was their own?


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## sedmont

Kajjo said:


> They simply cam empty-handed, without a proper concept. So they postponed the decision...


 Ok, this seems to answer my question in post #10 above.  The basic idea is that they _had _no idea -- not that they were obsessed with the idea being their very own.

Therefore, perhaps it could be translated thus?:

_It was also a strategy with which Wilhelm Blos was by no means dissatisfied: that of postponing the socialization question because they lacked a conception of it._


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## exgerman

...in the absence of a concept of their own...


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## ayuda?

sedmont said:


> Damit zeichnete sich auch für Württemberg eine Strategie ab, die der SPD-Politik im Reich ähnelte und mit der auch Wilhelm Blos keineswegs unzufrieden war: die Sozialisierungsfrage mangels eigener Konzeption zunächst einmal zu vertagen.




*Summary with just the basic facts in general: *[Correct me if I am wrong.]
●There was a strategy in **[for] Württemberg that was similar to the SPD policy in the Reich.
●Wm. Blos was by no means dissatisfied with it:.. [*that strategy of the SPD *(_their_ own) was to_ postpone the socialization question_]
[*Repeated*:  Blos was not unhappy with that state of affairs:a putting off of the socialization problem
(because *he also* possibly lacked a clear idea of what he also wanted to do at first regarding that particular point. ??)
●_for lack of a distinct conception of._ = *for lack of a concept their own*
*for a lack of a concept of their [SPD's] own* [about the socialization problem]
*Note:* the *SPD’s* own not Blos’ own.

This is, and has to be, *a straight-forward translation*, that’s what is necessary in this instance. I don’t understand the difficulty.
Plus, _Kajjo _seemed to clarify and summarize things very well from the German standpoint.

Something might have been mentioned in earlier sections about there being *no “clear,” “definite,” “distinct” etc*. concept, but you can’t put in anything that isn’t there—then you’re paraphrasing. Otherwise, you should simply put something in brackets [*distinct*].
*
Notes and Questions:
1.)*_ that of *first *postponing the socialization question for lack of a concept of their own_
*first = *zunächst einmal
*2.)** *Damit zeichnete sich auch *für?? *Württemberg eine Strategie ab, _Thus emerged a strategy *for* Württemberg..._


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## sedmont

Thanks very much, ayuda.

Based on your (admirably) detailed response, I'm not sure if you read posts #8, #9, #10, #11, where you can see precisely what it is that I'm a little unclear about and perhaps you can clear things up for me.  

Kajjo's interpretation, in post #9, 


Kajjo said:


> They simply cam empty-handed, without a proper concept. So they postponed the decision...



seemed as I understood it to give me warrant for this translation:

_It was also a strategy with which Wilhelm Blos was by no means dissatisfied: that of postponing the socialization question because they lacked a conception of it._


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> It was also a strategy with which Wilhelm Blos was by no means dissatisfied: that of postponing the socialization question because they lacked a conception of it.


You didn't translate "eigene", though. Why don't you like "own"?

They didn't have their own conception of it.


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## exgerman

Using _Conception_ to mean _concept_ is translationese. The main meaning of conception is "Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization". 


sedmont said:


> Let me ask this. Does the German sentence mean that
> 
> 1) they postponed the question because they didn't _have _a conception of it -- or
> 
> 2) they postponed the question because, in a way, the main thing they cared about was that the conception be _their _conception, and they did not care quite as much about the substantive content of the the conception, so long as it was their own?


They may have been aware of other parties' policies, but they had not yet developed a position of their own on it, so they punted.


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## sedmont

exgerman said:


> The main meaning of conception is "Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization".



Thanks for your comment exgerman.

Conception is _very _frequently used to mean a whole way of looking at something.  In fact that usage is probably more common than the biological one, except among people talking about babies, procreation, obstetric wards, etc.

As for "translationese" -- that's all I'm trying for here -- I need this forum for help getting at the underlying meaning. Once I have that, I can shift it into decent English on my own.


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## sedmont

Kajjo said:


> You didn't translate "eigene", though. Why don't you like "own"?
> 
> They didn't have their own conception of it.



Kajjo, thanks very much for asking.

Perhaps my confusion would be cleared up if I could know the answer to these two questions:

A) Did they postpone the question because, in a way, the main thing they cared about was that the conception used should be _their _conception, and they did _not _care as much about the content of the conception, so long as it was their very own, one that they created?

B) In English an expression like "he had no concept of his own" can sometimes be an intensified version of the same meaning conveyed by "he had no concept". Adding "of his own" does not have to mean that "he had no concept that was his alone, his very own, or that he invented. Rather, the expression can mean something like: "he did not see the idea for himself". It refers to not having a clear inner experience of the structure of a concept, regardless of whose concept it is. So, when we read that these people did not have their own concept of socialization, does that simply mean they had no clear personal experience of the idea of "socialization" -- what it might mean -- whether their own concept or anyone else's?

If something like B) is what's behind the German sentence, then perhaps I should do something like this, which captures a bit the reflexivity described in B):

_It was also a strategy with which Wilhelm Blos was by no means dissatisfied: that of postponing the socialization question because *they themselves* lacked a conception of it.

Damit zeichnete sich auch für Württemberg eine Strategie ab, die der SPD-Politik im Reich ähnelte und mit der auch Wilhelm Blos keineswegs unzufrieden war: die Sozialisierungsfrage mangels eigener Konzeption zunächst einmal zu vertagen._


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## anahiseri

because they lacked a concept of their own 
I think this perfectly captures the meaning of the German sentence


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## anahiseri

I think it was Kajjos suggestion


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## sedmont

Thanks very much, anahiseri.


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## ayuda?

*QUOTE: *Thanks for the kind comment: “(admirably) detailed response”
Okay, then another one because your kind attitude has not gone unnoticed.

*Your Original question about what was meant by the part in red]:*
:die Sozialisierungsfrage *mangels eigener Konzeption *zunächst einmal zu vertagen.
Then it was just a question of narrowing down just the section in red!!:

Essentially, *the whole excerpt* was clarified because you seem to continually asking the same questions over and over, expecting to get a different answer. What that mean to me was you didn’t have an understanding of the basic German. I’m so glad you appreciate that.

*QUOTE:* Based on your (admirably) detailed response, I'm not sure if you read posts #8, #9, #10, #11, where you can see precisely what it is that I am a little unclear about and perhaps you can clear things up for me. *I think you are* *missing the point*.

*In case you missed it, this is the point:
Re:* *eigener = own*
[It took a while, but I hope you finally see that *eigener = own*.
●_for lack of a distinct conception of._ = *for lack of a concept their own *[said in many ways by many forum members in this thread forum]
*QUOTES:*
[*Kajjo + anahisieri + JClaudeK*] _for lack of their *own* conception_
*[ayuda?]* ●_for lack of a distinct conception of._ = *for lack of a concept their own
[anahisieri]* *Eigen* means *own*, you can't translate it differently.
*[sedmont]* you've just enlightened me as to how lack of *"own"* concept,
... described from every angle, yet you don’t seem to get that.
****And then *again later* *[Kajjo] *said you didn't translate *"eigene"*, though. Why don't you like *"own"?*

****[This is the main point and what you don’t understand. Now go back to all those posts you pointed out: #8, #9, #10, #11, etc., etc…. Is there still something you don’t understand there??* eigener = own*.


*Re:* *Conception: *[Is there some point you don’t understand _here_??]
*[ayuda?]* ●_for lack of a distinct conception of._ = *for lack of a concept their own*
[_Distinct_, distinctly doesn’t belong there either!]
*QUOTES:
[exgerman]* Using *Conception* to mean* concept* is* translationese*.
*[ayuda?] for lack of a concept their own
[anahisieri] because* they lacked a *concept* of their own [I also like the use of *because*.]
    I think this perfectly captures the meaning of the German sentence

_*Conception *_sounds just plain weird, wrong, stilted here in English [2 native speakers], etc.
Literal German does not always fit!
You stated confused about something in the thread.
Well, you shouldn’t be confused about anything at this point either even if your German might be lacking since again practically every word of the post has been translated or clarified by some really expert German speakers.

Please accept this the way it is meant. <...>:
*mangels eigener Kozeption**:* = *for lack of a concept their own [because of the lack a concept] *[very straight-forward]

<...>

Hope it helps.

Moderator note: off-topic remarks removed.


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## Kajjo

<...> "eigene" should be translated as "own" and nothing else.

Moderator note: reference to deleted post removed.


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## Bondstreet

.
...to postpone the socialisation question for the time being in the absence of a fully formed policy on it.
.


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## bearded

Sedmont
You had originally translated ''eigen'' as 'distinct', - which was not that far from being suitable in my opinion.
Now perhaps you might consider the adjective ''specific'':
..._in absence/for lack of a specific concept of their own..._


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## sedmont

Bondstreet and bearded, thanks very much for the helpful suggestions.


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