# 高祖爲人隆準而龍顔



## Starfrown

More 訓読 fun! I triple-checked the text this time, so there shouldn't be any errors.
 
高祖爲人隆準而龍顔
高祖人と爲り隆準にして龍顔。
かうそひととなりりゅうせつにしてりょうがん。
 
I need some assistance on several points in this sentence. 
 
Firstly, would you agree with the following syntactical analysis?
 
高祖人と爲り隆準にして龍顔。
 
Red = topic
Blue = adverbial here?
Orange = topic complement
 
My text notes that 爲人 in the sense of “personality” is routinely translated into Japanese as 人と爲り. I don’t quite understand why that is the case. Is its literal meaning something like “becoming a person” or “being a person” or perhaps even “making [someone] a person” (the implication being that one’s personality “makes” one a unique person)?
 
Now on to the—or rather, _my attempt at_—literal translation:
 
“Kao Tsu, by personality, although high in standards, was dragon-faced.”
 
It doesn’t sound very good to me as it stands, so I hope the native speakers, be they Japanese or Chinese, will be able to suggest some refinements. I’m particularly concerned about 隆準, as I could not find an entry for it in either Japanese or Chinese dictionaries. I suppose it means “high/exacting in standards/rules,” but I’m not sure at all, really.
 
Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I just thought that maybe I should instead interpret 人と爲り as the subject of the clause 人と爲り隆準にして, giving:

"Kao tsu, although his personality was high in standards, was dragon-faced."

Again, I await the superior judgements of the native speakers.


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## Flaminius

Hello, 星顰先生.

人と爲り
I am more familiar with an all-kanji representation of the word; 為人.  All the same: it usually means personality but 司馬遷 describes 劉邦's physiognomy in this paragraph (having 72 moles on the left thigh etc.).  Looks may be a more apt translation.


隆準にして龍顔
These words are probably used in 史記 only for describing the mugshot of 劉邦.  For 隆準, 隆 is high.  準 is either cheekbone or bridge of the hose according to different commentators.  If you want a ready-made answer which has been the traditional Japanese understanding, here it is:


> 鼻柱の高いこと。また、高い鼻。



龍顔 came to be a typical description of an emperor's countenance in later periods.  劉邦 is described dragon-like because the legend has it that he was the off-spring of his mother and a dragon (One of the meanings of "dragon" in Modern Greek is rapist, by the way).  Again, commentators differ as to what this word means but "ridged brow bone" is the established interpretation.

For the text and the comments on 『史記・高祖本紀』, I referred to 中央研究院漢籍電子文献.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Hello, 星顰先生.
> 
> 人と爲り
> I am more familiar with an all-kanji representation of the word; 為人. All the same: it usually means personality but 司馬遷 describes 劉邦's physiognomy in this paragraph (having 72 moles on the left thigh etc.). Looks may be a more apt translation.
> 
> 
> 隆準にして龍顔
> These words are probably used in 史記 only for describing the mugshot of 劉邦. For 隆準, 隆 is high. 準 is either cheekbone or bridge of the hose according to different commentators. If you want a ready-made answer which has been the traditional Japanese understanding, here it is:
> 
> 
> 龍顔 came to be a typical description of an emperor's countenance in later periods. 劉邦 is described dragon-like because the legend has it that he was the off-spring of his mother and a dragon (One of the meanings of "dragon" in Modern Greek is rapist, by the way). Again, commentators differ as to what this word means but "ridged brow bone" is the established interpretation.
> 
> For the text and the comments on 『史記・高祖本紀』, I referred to 中央研究院漢籍電子文献.


Many thanks. I was really struggling to understand the sentence before because I was not aware of the physiological meaning of 準. Now it makes perfect sense.

The correct syntactical analysis then must be:

高祖人と爲り隆準にして龍顔。

Red = topic
Blue = subject
Orange = subject complement

It is already clear to me that reading Kanbun will require the consultation of resources that simply are not available in English--and of course my learned friends here at the WR forums.


Flaminius said:


> I am more familiar with an all-kanji representation of the word; 為人.


Either way, it's read ひととなり, right?


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## Lamb67

高祖这个人，高鼻子，一副龙的容貌
That's the modern Chinese translation, means Gao Zu (is) such a peron, (who has) a big nose, (and) Dragon-faced .

爲人 as what the OP explained :' that 爲人 'in the sense of “personality and Starfrown seems to be puzzled by it.
 
Now I can say the text in his hand must make a mistake- it only explained  爲人 in a modern Chinese context.
 
It's Flaminius' post  that  explains it well in a classical Chinese context.


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## Starfrown

I see now that I should also have simply translated にして as "and" in this sentence, although it may have an adversative reading elsewhere.

I remember reading long ago that 而 may be used to mean "however" in Classical Japanese, and I simply assumed that it had the same sort of meaning in the Chinese text here, but it appears that it is more or less performing a simple conjunctive role.


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## Flaminius

Yes, 為人 is read _hitotonari_.



> I remember reading long ago that 而 may be used to mean "however" in Classical Japanese, and I simply assumed that it had the same sort of meaning in the Chinese text here, but it appears that it is more or less performing a simple conjunctive role.


而 is read in a few ways (underlined portion is _okurigana_); shikōshite, shikaredomo, shikamo.  Translations can be "and," "however," "additionally" etc.  It's just an _and_ here but you will wait and see other usages.    What it means in Classical Japanese may be ignorable because it is always used in _kambun_ or _kambun_-like officious styles.



> 高祖人と爲り隆準にして龍顔。
> 
> Red = topic
> Blue = subject
> Orange = subject complement


This is the best understanding of the Japanese translation but I am not sure if Ancient Chinese had the idea of the topic.  It may well be that 高祖 modifies 爲人 (an omission of 高祖之爲人).


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## Lamb67

It's fun indeed. Let me analyse the following modern Chinese translation by borrowing Flam and Star's ideas. 

Gao ZU 这个人，高鼻子，一副龙的容貌

.这个人= This man himself ; 而= and, a conjunctive , omitted in modern chinese translation.

爲人seems to be translated as ' this man himself' and 这个人 is usually a leading phrase in modern Chinese to show that more details about him/her soon follow and happens to lean more on the personality.Suggest you read further along the same Classical Chinese text( do it by google in Chinese ). You'd find the following text are more about his personality such as a benevolent man, a broad-minded man etc.


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## Lamb67

After reading the modern Chinese translation more carefully, I think it is right to say that  爲人 'in the sense of “personality is quite a good translation in this question.
And there is no evidence as far as I know of now, it is a word for physique, appearance, or look. 
In short ,爲人 'in the sense of “personality should be read in a whole paragraph rather than inthe opening only.


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## Starfrown

Lamb67 said:


> After reading the modern Chinese translation more carefully, I think it is right to say that 爲人 'in the sense of “personality is quite a good translation in this question.
> And there is no evidence as far as I know of now, it is a word for physique, appearance, or look.
> In short ,爲人 'in the sense of “personality should be read in a whole paragraph rather than inthe opening only.


May it perhaps encompass both the physical and psychological meanings at the same time?


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## radagasty

Lamb67 said:


> After reading the modern Chinese translation more carefully, I think it is right to say that 爲人 'in the sense of “personality is quite a good translation in this question. And there is no evidence as far as I know of now, it is a word for physique, appearance, or look. In short, 爲人 'in the sense of “personality should be read in a whole paragraph rather than inthe opening only.


 
On the contrary, I would say that there is good evidence for 爲人 meaning 'looks' or 'comportment'. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that this was historically the principal meaning of the compound.

For example, in 日出東南隅, we have:

*爲人*潔白皙 鬑鬑頗有鬚 盈盈公府步 冉冉府中趨 坐中數千人 皆言夫婿殊


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