# Hindi/Urdu: verb ending with 'hona'



## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

I need some clarification on verbs ending with 'hona'. As an example, let us take 'shuru hona' which means 'to be started' while 'shuru karna' would mean 'to start'. So when I say 'maiN is naaTak ko shuru karta huN.',would it mean that 'I start this play.'? Then to say 'This play starts.', would it be 'yeh naaTak shuru hota hai' or is it 'yeh naaTak shuru hai.'? 

Based on the construction using 'karna' I would go for the former. Then what would the other option mean? 

Thanks!


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## marrish

The difference is that _H. प्रारम्भ, शुरू होना praarambh, shuruu/ U. شروع ہونا shuruu3 honaa_ is an intransitive verb while with _karnaa_ it is transitive. What about looking up this difference (the sense of transitiveness and intransitiveness) and then taking a look at the following:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/digbooks/dig_toc.html?BOOKID=PK1983.N2_1999_V1 
- introductory course for Urdu, CM Naim, for grammar matters in general.

Your choice of the former earns you a prize!^ This is the right option! The other option would mean "This play has started."


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## lafz_puchnevala

marrish said:


> "This play has started."



I would have thought that this would mean 'yeh naaTak shuru hua hai'   Would that be acceptable as well?

Thanks!


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## tonyspeed

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need some clarification on verbs ending with 'hona'. As an example, let us take 'shuru hona' which means 'to be started' while 'shuru karna' would mean 'to start'. So when I say 'maiN is naaTak ko shuru karta huN.',would it mean that 'I start this play.'? Then to say 'This play starts.', would it be 'yeh naaTak shuru hota hai' or is it 'yeh naaTak shuru hai.'?
> 
> Based on the construction using 'karna' I would go for the former. Then what would the other option mean?
> 
> Thanks!



"yeh naaTak shuru hotaa hai" would mean this play generally starts (i.e. it starts on Monday, Tues, Wed, Thurs, etc)
which, to me, is a very unrealistic but valid expression.


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## Abu Talha

tonyspeed said:


> "yeh naaTak shuru hotaa hai" would mean this play generally starts (i.e. it starts on Monday, Tues, Wed, Thurs, etc)
> which, to me, is a very unrealistic but valid expression.


It could also mean "This play starts [right now, as we speak]". This usage of the habitual (?) is very common with mention of an accompaniment, and I think it is similar to English in this regard. For example,

_is ke saath hamaaraa programme ixtitaam pe *pahunchtaa hai*. ijaazat diijiye. xudaa HaafiZ._
With this, our program comes to an end. etc. etc.


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## Abu Talha

lafz_puchnevala said:


> or is it 'yeh naaTak shuru hai.'?


It seems to me that this option is only valid if the primary component of the compound verb doubles as an adjective. In the case of "shuruu3" it sounds as if it might possibly, but it's a stretch.

With others, it is flat out wrong. You can't, for instance, say "ye chiiz isti3maal hai" for "This thing is used/in use/etc".

For "has started", you can't go wrong with "shuruu3 ho gayaa hai."


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## lafz_puchnevala

Abu Talha said:


> "ye chiiz isti3maal hai" for "This thing is used/in use/etc".



Should it be 'is cheez ka istemaal hua hai'?

Thanks!


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## lafz_puchnevala

Abu Talha said:


> It could also mean "This play starts [right now, as we speak]". This usage of the habitual (?) is very common with mention of an accompaniment, and I think it is similar to English in this regard. For example,
> 
> _is ke saath hamaaraa programme ixtitaam pe *pahunchtaa hai*. ijaazat diijiye. xudaa HaafiZ._
> With this, our program comes to an end. etc. etc.



Following the above logic, can I modify it by saying '_is ke saath hamaaraa programme ixtitaam hota hai.' to mean 'With this, our program ends.'?
_
Thanks!


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Following the above logic, can I modify it by saying '_is ke saath hamaaraa programme ixtitaam hota hai.' to mean 'With this, our program ends.'?
> _
> Thanks!


 Actually, it would be: '_is ke saath hamaar*e* programme *kaa* ixtitaam hota hai.'_


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## lafz_puchnevala

Faylasoof said:


> Actually, it would be: '_is ke saath hamaar*e* programme *kaa* ixtitaam hota hai.'_



Some clarification on the need for the possessive 'kaa' here would be very much appreciated.  Could I have said '_is ke saath hamaar*a* programme *khatm* hota hai.' instead?
_
Thanks!


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## lafz_puchnevala

One final exercise on this important topic using 'razi hona' which means to agree...

'maiN aate hue fursat meiN mulk ke aas paas safar karne par razi hota huN.' I agree to tour around the country in the coming vacation.

Thanks!


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## hindiurdu

Forgetting about awkward vs non-awkward usage, in my mind, the rough equivalences are:

a) Ye shuru hota ha - This is beginning.
b) Ye shuru hai - This has begun.
c) Ye shuru hua hai - This has (just/recently) begun.
d) Ye shuru hona hai - This is (yet) to be begun.
e) Ye shuru karna hai - This needs to be begun.
f) Ye shuru kiya hai - This has been begun.



lafz_puchnevala said:


> 'maiN aate hue fursat meiN mulk ke aas  paas safar karne par razi hota huN.' I agree to tour around the country  in the coming vacation



Not quite -
a) "Mulk ke aas-paas" means "(externally) around the country". So "France ke aaspaas" means Belgium, Spain, Italy, Germany.
b)"Mulk meiN idhar-udhar" means "(internally) here and there in the country".
c)"Razi hota huN" sounds almost like an announcement - "I hereby agree" or "I am (in the process of) agreeing".
c)"Aate hue fursat maiN" conveys something different from your intention (at least to me) - "When I am coming (from somewhere), in my free time" - so your sentence overall means - "When I come, I hereby agree to tour some areas neighboring the country in my free time."

Better common usage might be: MaiN aane vaali chhuTTi/chhuTTi(y)oN meiN mulk meiN idhar-udhar safar karne ko/par raazi hoon. chhuTTi = holiday, chhuTTi(y)oN = holidays - both work, much as in English. You could use a more exotic word for holiday like faraghat or avkaash but virtually no one I know does in non-pedantic usage. You could also say "Mulk meiN aas-paas" but that carries a flavor of "Inside the country close to the areas where I am planning on being (for some other reason)".


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Some clarification on the need for the possessive 'kaa' here would be very much appreciated. Could I have said '_is ke saath hamaar*a* programme *khatm* hota hai.' instead?
> _
> Thanks!


 Yes, this is correct!

*is*_ programme / bar-naamah *kaa* *ixtitaam* *hotaa hai* _
*yeh *_programme / bar-naamah *xatm hotaa hai*_

If you use *yeh* with *ixtitaam *then you need to add the post-position *par *together with the appropriate conjugation of the verb *pahuNchnaa*, just as as Abu Talha SaaHib used above. The example below gives the same meaning: 

*yeh*_ programme / bar-naamah *ixtitaam par pahuNchtaa hai.*_


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## lafz_puchnevala

hindiurdu said:


> Forgetting about awkward vs non-awkward usage, in my mind, the rough equivalences are:
> 
> a) Ye shuru hota ha - This is beginning.
> b) Ye shuru hai - This has begun.
> c) Ye shuru hua hai - This has (just/recently) begun.
> d) Ye shuru hona hai - This is (yet) to be begun.
> e) Ye shuru karna hai - This needs to be begun.
> f) Ye shuru kiya hai - This has been begun.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite -
> a) "Mulk ke aas-paas" means "(externally) around the country". So "France ke aaspaas" means Belgium, Spain, Italy, Germany.
> b)"Mulk meiN idhar-udhar" means "(internally) here and there in the country".
> c)"Razi hota huN" sounds almost like an announcement - "I hereby agree" or "I am (in the process of) agreeing".
> c)"Aate hue fursat maiN" conveys something different from your intention (at least to me) - "When I am coming (from somewhere), in my free time" - so your sentence overall means - "When I come, I hereby agree to tour some areas neighboring the country in my free time."
> 
> Better common usage might be: MaiN aane vaali chhuTTi/chhuTTi(y)oN meiN mulk meiN idhar-udhar safar karne ko/par raazi hoon. chhuTTi = holiday, chhuTTi(y)oN = holidays - both work, much as in English. You could use a more exotic word for holiday like faraghat or avkaash but virtually no one I know does in non-pedantic usage. You could also say "Mulk meiN aas-paas" but that carries a flavor of "Inside the country close to the areas where I am planning on being (for some other reason)".



Are you saying that with 'hota' the verb becomes more formal here? What about '...razi ho raha huN'? Does that also imply a continuous tense?

Thanks!


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## hindiurdu

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Are you saying that with 'hota' the verb becomes more formal here? What about '...razi ho raha huN'? Does that also imply a continuous tense?



Yes, I think so -

- Raazi hota hoon - I get to (a state of) agreement.
- Raazi ho raha hoon - I am (in the process of) getting to (a state of) agreement.

- MaiN ab raazi hota hoon - I now get to a state of agreement = I now announce my agreement = I now agree. This signals an announcement/decision/decree.
- MaiN ab raazi ho rahaa hoon - I am now getting to agreement = I am now beginning to agree. This signals a process that's moving unambiguously in a certain direction.

- Aaj se khaanaa muft hota hai - From today, food is (announced to be) free.
- Aaj se khaanaa muft ho rahaa hai - From today, food is (beginning to be) free.

BTW, in this example, you can also use jaa -
- Aaj se khaanaa muft kiyaa jaataa hai
- Aaj se khaanaa muft kiyaa jaa rahaa hai

Similarly, with raazi -
- Main razaamandi deta hoon - I give my agreement.
- Main razaamandi de rahaa hoon - I am giving my agreement.

Hope that helps.


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## Abu Talha

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Should it be 'is cheez ka istemaal hua hai'?!


Not sure if technically correct or not, but to me it seems okay.



lafz_puchnevala said:


> Following the above logic, can I modify it by saying '_is ke saath hamaaraa programme ixtitaam hota hai.' to mean 'With this, our program ends.'?_


Faylasoof and HindiUrdu Sbs have already expertly answered your questions but I wanted to address why you can say _yih program shuruu3 hotaa hai_ but you can't say _yih program ixtitaam hotaa hai_.

I am a little hesitant attempting to explain this as I'm making it up as I go along. I hope some grammar book addresses it more adequately. Basically you have to understand the meaning of the primary component of the compound word by itself, as used in Urdu. (And this may differ somewhat from its original meaning or sense in Arabic.) 

_shuruu3 _is the action of beginnning (and this is different from other possible meanings of "beginning"). So if you say _yih program shuruu3 hotaa hai_, it means "This program begins".

ixtitaam, on the other hand, means the end-part or the "close" (as a noun) of something. So you can't say _yih program ixtitaam hotaa hai_ because it would mean "This program <end-part>s". You have to either use the possessive: 

This program's end-part occurs = _is program kaa ixtitaam hotaa hai_.

or you can say:

This program reaches [its] end-part/close = _yih program ixtitaam pe pahunchtaa hai_.

An exact counterpart of _shuruu3 _is _xatm_. You can say_ yih program xatm hotaa hai_. But _xatm _can (sometimes) also take a meaning similar to ixtitaam and can (I think) be used with a possessive.


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## panjabigator

I started a thread on Istimaal four years ago for anyone who is interested.


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## lafz_puchnevala

hindiurdu said:


> Yes, I think so -
> 
> - Raazi hota hoon - I get to (a state of) agreement.
> 
> 
> - MaiN ab raazi hota hoon - I now get to a state of agreement = I now announce my agreement = I now agree. This signals an announcement/decision/decree.
> .



I deeply appreciate Abu Talha's and your detailed comments! Now I would like to know the difference between the above and plain 'maiN razi huN' if this construction exists at all.

Thanks!


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## Abu Talha

lafz_puchnevala said:


> I deeply appreciate Abu Talha's and your detailed comments! Now I would like to know the difference between the above and plain 'maiN razi huN' if this construction exists at all.


You're most welcome. _maiN raaZii huuN_ is perfectly correct and it means "I am pleased/(sufficiently) satisfied". _raaZii_ is an adjective and this statement is similar to _maiN xush huuN_ "I am happy".


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## lafz_puchnevala

So in Platts, I usually find '<word> hona' which of course signifies a verb. In this case can I then assume that if I want to use this verb in the present imperfective tense, then I will have to say '..... <word> hota hai'?

Let us take 'halaak hona' which I recently learnt means 'to die'. Eg. 'is film meiN woh kirdaar halaak hota hai.' In this film that character dies.  VS 'woh halaak hai.' He is dead.


To conclude, do we all agree that '<verb> hota hai' does not necessarily mean that the action is habitual or repetitive?

Thanks!


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## tonyspeed

hindiurdu said:


> f) Ye shuru kiya hai - This has been begun.



I'm not 100% about that translation. Would we not say "ye shuru kiyaa gayaa hai"? 
"ye shuru kiyaa hai" seems to be "(us ne) ye shuru kiyaa hai" which is really (he/she/it/they) started this, but we have left off the subject,
which is different from "has been begun" which is the passive form: "kiyaa gayaa hai"

Correct me if I am mistaken.


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## marrish

lafz_puchnevala said:


> So in Platts, I usually find '<word> hona' which of course signifies a verb. In this case can I then assume that if I want to use this verb in the present imperfective tense, then I will have to say '..... <word> hota hai'?
> 
> Let us take 'halaak hona' which I recently learnt means 'to die'. Eg. 'is film meiN woh kirdaar halaak hota hai.' In this film that character dies.  VS 'woh halaak hai.' He is dead.
> 
> 
> To conclude, do we all agree that '<verb> hota hai' does not necessarily mean that the action is habitual or repetitive?
> 
> Thanks!



You are right, that is why I told you in my first post that it was OK.

_halaak honaa_ means to be killed, BTW.


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## Abu Talha

tonyspeed said:


> I'm not 100% about that translation. Would we not say "ye shuru kiyaa gayaa hai"?


I think I agree.





> "ye shuru kiyaa hai" seems to be "(us ne) ye shuru kiyaa hai" which is really (he/she/it/they) started this..


 Here's what I think:

yih shuruu3 kiyaa: [He] started this. 
yih shuruu3 kiyaa hai: [He] has started this. 
yih shuruu3 kiyaa thaa: [He] had started this.

This note is also interesting:





> Although formally speaking the Urdu past perfect tense corresponds very nicely to the English past perfect, in colloquial usage it often doesn't. For example, someone will tell you, kal mai;N ne film dekhii thii , but no one will normally say in English (as a free-standing statement), 'Yesterday I had seen a film'. Thus the Urdu is often marking something other than greater past-ness-- something more like emphatic completedness or one-shot 'over'-ness.
> Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ghalib/038/38_01.html?#fwp


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## Abu Talha

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Eg. 'is film meiN woh kirdaar halaak hota hai.' In this film that character dies.  VS 'woh halaak hai.' He is dead.


I agree with Marrish Sb. Both sentences are correct with the meanings that you have provided.





> To conclude, do we all agree that '<verb> hota hai' does not necessarily mean that the action is habitual or repetitive?


I agree. I think it corresponds, more or less, to the English simple present tense.


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## marrish

marrish said:


> You are right, that is why I told you in my first post that it was OK.
> 
> _halaak honaa_ means to be killed, BTW.


I forgot to mention that to be precise "<verb> hotaa hai" is incorrect. It should be <non-verbal part of a compound verb> hotaa hai. hotaa hai is the verbal component of compound verb. I hope my understanding is right.


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## lafz_puchnevala

marrish said:


> I forgot to mention that to be precise "<verb> hotaa hai" is incorrect. It should be <non-verbal part of a compound verb> hotaa hai. hotaa hai is the verbal component of compound verb. I hope my understanding is right.



Yes, I shouldn't have written 'verb' there. Often there will be a noun or adjective there.


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