# d'esdevenir un conjunt d'accions



## Matti

Hola 

Em podeu ajudar amb aquesta frase?

"Per tant, han d'esdevenir un conjunt d'accions que han de contribuir al desenvolupment de la persona, han de donar accés a nous nivells d'educació i fer front al repte de la flexibilització del treball i la presència de nous perfils professionals que ens demana la nostre societat del coneixement"

Vol dir "a group of actions have to come together"??

Gràcies per endavant.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

Matti said:


> "Per tant, han d'esdevenir un conjunt d'accions que han de contribuir al desenvolupment de la persona, han de donar accés a nous nivells d'educació i fer front al repte de la flexibilització del treball i la presència de nous perfils professionals que ens demana la nostre societat del coneixement"
> 
> Vol dir "a group of actions have to come together"??


 
Yes, it does mean that, but I think it would sound better in English by making the subject explicit. That is, "something" which is not in this context has to turn into a group of actions. 

If you tell us what that "something"* is, maybe we could remake the whole thing into English. I think it would sound better.

Bye for now, Matti!

*Hopefully it's somewhere before in the text!


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## Matti

Thanks for speedy reply TraductoraPobleSec. Preceeding sentence goes like this:

"Com a municipi entenem que l'educació permanent ha de garantir el dret a la formació bàsica, que possibiliti cohesió social i la preparació professional. Per tant han d'esdevenir etc."

For which I have:

"As a municipality we understand that permanent education has to be able to guarantee the right to basic training, making social cohesion and transprofessional preparation possible. Therefore, a group of actions....." 

a combination of actions? Does "esdevenir" only mean "become". Not quite clear yet but getting there, thanks!


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## TraductoraPobleSec

Yes, Matti, _esdevenir_ is our very own beautiful verb for become (not that widely used, sadly...) 

Of course I might be wrong not being a native, but I would start the next sencence with _These_ _should become a combination of actions/group of actions_; "these" meaning basic ed., social cohesion and transprofessional prep.

You could still keep "therefore", though!

What do you think?


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Yes, Matti, _esdevenir_ is our very own beautiful verb for become (not that widely used, sadly...)
> 
> Of course I might be wrong not being a native, but I would start the next sencence with _These_ _should become a combination of actions/group of actions_; "these" meaning basic ed., social cohesion and transprofessional prep.
> 
> You could still keep "therefore", though!
> 
> What do you think?



I don't quite see it that way, though I may be wrong.  My feeling is that the authors first state what they believe "permanent education" must entail ("garantir el dret a la formació bàsica, cohesió social, preparació professional, etc.).  Therefore, to bring about this guarantee, an as yet unspecified series of actions must occur which "contribuir al desenvolupment de la persona, donar accés a nous nivells d'educació...", etc.  

Perhaps later in the document suggestions will be made as to what this series of actions should be.

Do you see what I mean?  Again, I may be way off base.

Lou

Addendum:  I also feel the Catalan is a little shaky (TPS, you'd know better than I): Wouldn't it sound better to say "s'han d'esdevenir un conjunt d'accions..."?  "esdevenir", as you say, means "become" or "turn into", and "esdevenir-se" means "happen", "occur" or "come about".  It seems to me that the actions have to "happen", "occur" or "come about", not "become" or "turn into".


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## ampurdan

louhevly said:


> Addendum:  I also feel the Catalan is a little shaky (TPS, you'd know better than I): Wouldn't it sound better to say "s'han d'esdevenir un conjunt d'accions..."?  "esdevenir", as you say, means "become" or "turn into", and "esdevenir-se" means "happen", "occur" or "come about".  It seems to me that the actions have to "happen", "occur" or "come about", not "become" or "turn into".



Indeed. In this case, it should be "s'han d'esdevenir".

My try:

"Therefore, a series of actions must take place, helping towards personal development (?), guaranteeing access to further (?) levels of education and facing up to the challenge of relaxation of laws relating to terms of employment and that of the presence of new professional profiles (?), which the society of knowledge requires from us".


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## megane_wang

I agree with ampurdan's try... with the same potential errors too 

BTW: Would it be "facing up to the challenge" as suggested, or "facing up the challenge" ? Or none of them ?


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## Matti

Wow! You have been busy! How did I miss all this?!

Yes Megane wang, it would be 'facing up To the challenge', but I've since changed that to "take on the challenge". And Ampurdan thanks for clarification of "han d'esdevenir". I've now got that as "a combination of actions are required". All sounds better but I'm not sure if it's correct, maybe needs some fine tuning. Moltes, moltes gràcies! 

"As a municipality we understand that permanent education has to be able to guarantee the right to basic training, making social cohesion and transprofessional preparation possible. Therefore, a combination of actions are required that will contribute to the development of the person, they must provide access to new levels of education and take on the challenge of the new flexibility of work and the emergence of new professional positions which we must adapt to in our knowledge-based society.


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## louhevly

megane_wang said:


> I agree with ampurdan's try... with the same potential errors too
> 
> BTW: Would it be "facing up to the challenge" as suggested, or "facing up the challenge" ? Or none of them ?



"facing up to the challenge", for sure.

Also, just a slight correction:
"... the challenge of relaxation of laws" should be:
"... the challenge of the relaxation of laws".

So here's my try, which is a modification of ampurdan's.  (I should mention that I am a very poor initial translator; it takes me forever sometimes to do what others seem to be able to just rip off in a few minutes. I much prefer trying to improve someone else's work.)

Therefore, a series of actions must take place to help towards personal development and to guarantee access to further levels of education. These actions must also face up to both the challenge of the relaxation of laws relating to terms of employment and the advent of those new professional profiles required of us by the "information society".

Lou


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## louhevly

Matti said:


> Wow! You have been busy! How did I miss all this?!
> 
> Yes Megane wang, it would be 'facing up To the challenge', but I've since changed that to "take on the challenge". And Ampurdan thanks for clarification of "han d'esdevenir". I've now got that as "a combination of actions are required". All sounds better but I'm not sure if it's correct, maybe needs some fine tuning. Moltes, moltes gràcies!
> 
> "As a municipality we understand that permanent education has to be able to guarantee the right to basic training, making social cohesion and transprofessional preparation possible. Therefore, a combination of actions are required that will contribute to the development of the person, they must provide access to new levels of education and take on the challenge of the new flexibility of work and the emergence of new professional positions which we must adapt to in our knowledge-based society.




Very nice!  I like yours better than mine. Especially "knowledge-based society".  I never would have thought of that one. But I would change:
... development of the person, they...
to:
... development of the person; they...

Also I think you should keep the "relaxation of laws relating to terms of employment", or something similar.  I believe this specifically refers to the fact that, in order to encourage employers to give people jobs when the employers need them, laws are making it easier to lay them off when they aren't needed.

"...the new flexibility of work..." doesn't quite carry this meaning.

Lou


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## Matti

Thanks Lou!
Yes, I wasn't quite sure what was meant by "flexibitizació de treball" I thought it maybe meant different ways of working, from home 'virutally' (like me), etc. but I see what you mean and think you're right.

Have to confess that I saw "knowledge-based society" in a translation I had to proof-read this morning; I liked it so I nicked it!

There's 9 pages of this article so don't go away!


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## ajohan

Two more suggestions mate. Why not "continuing education" or "lifelong learning" in place of "permanent education", which doesn't collocate too well in English?
And further down "personal development"
Cheers


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## Matti

Yes, 'permanent education' does sound a bit too literal, maybe 'ongoing' or your suggestions better but I googled it and got 'permanent education' 131.000.000 times!!! so I'll stick with it, maybe it's more of an American English term.


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## ajohan

But if you put quotes round permanent education it's down to a few thousand compared to nearly 50 million for continuing education. These two terms I suggested are buzz words at the moment in educational discourse. "Lifelong learning" is a bit more specific and means the right to have an education throughout your life to enhance or adapt your professional skills to new working environments. "Continuing education" is used similarly but is also used to mean "further education" in some contexts, so it can confuse the reader somewhat.


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## ajohan

Just another thought about "conjunt de accions". What about "measures"?
"Therefore, measures should be taken to contribute ......"

Sorry if I seem a bit pedantic but "combination of actions" sounds non-native to me.
Good night


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## Matti

Don't apologise Ajohan please! I really welcome any suggestions, particularly for this 'heavy', never ending text I'm lumbered with right now.

Whole translation is still at the rough stage so I will be changing phrases here and there and "measures" sounds like a good alternative to "combination of actions", and "lifelong learning" much better than "permanent education".

Can I send you whole thing when it's finished? you come up with such good ideas


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## ajohan

Hi
Some of my inspiration often comes while driving for some reason and it occurred to me this morning that "a series" is the best word that collocates with "measures" - so, "a series of measures". And what about the verb "devise" for "esdevenir"? 
"A series of measures should be devised that would contribute ......".

And yes, the Catalan is shaky to say the least - "La nostr*e* societat???"

Cheers


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## Matti

Great minds think alike! I nabbed your "measures" and added my own "series of". Might have another look at "esdevenir" but I'm just at end of checking whole thing now and will be glad to see the back of it! Drive carefully!


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