# French and sarcasm



## agoodeno

I was wondering how much sarcasm is used in French, compared to English, and under what conditions?

Is there any characteristic aspect of French sarcasm (tone of voice, gesture, whatever) that would give a clue to an easily-confused Anglophone (such as myself) that a French speaker is being sarcastic, and so not to take him/her literally (which would be a huge mistake!)?

Alan


----------



## DDT

I am moving this thread to the "Cultural Discussions" forum

DDT


----------



## cuchuflete

DDT said:
			
		

> I am moving this thread to the "Cultural Discussions" forum
> 
> DDT



MMMmmmmmmmmm.  Might this be an example of French sarcasm?


----------



## BERENICE S

Hello,

"Sarcasme" does indeed exist in French ; it is an ironic mockery which is bitter, insulting, even nasty.

"Sarcastique" is the adjective deriving from "sarcasme"

You might say a person is "sarcastique" or "fait des commentaires sarcastiques" or "dit des paroles sarcastiques"

Hope it helps

Bye -B.


----------



## emma42

Hi Bérénice.  Could you give us some examples, including inflection/tone of voice etc?


----------



## oxazol

I live in France, and for me there are no differences in this issue between Spain and France.


----------



## BERENICE S

Hello,

An example : imagine I made some (big) mistakes in a paper at school, and the teacher -who is not very kind- reads the paper before the whole class and mocks my mistakes (moreover he has that crual smile and laughter...) ; I could say :

"Le professeur s'est moqué de moi, il ne plaisantait pas, il faisait des remarques d'un ton sarcastique"
"Le professeur est sarcastique"
"J'ai dû supporter le rire sarcastique du professeur"
"J'ai dû supporter les sarcasmes du professeur"

I hope it helps 

Bérénice

PS : Brrr I would not like to go back to school


----------



## la reine victoria

I was once subjected to some good old French sarcasm by a Parisian bus driver.

I boarded the bus without having my fare ready.  While I was fumbling for some coins the driver accelerated sharply and I almost fell over.  I said to him, "Arretez de rouler si vite pendant que je trouve d l'argent."

"Ce n'est pas moi qui roule Madame," he said (with that gorgeous Gauloise and garlic aroma coming from his mouth) - "c'est le bus!"



 
LRV
()


----------



## emma42

Thank you, Berenice and La Reine!  I did not know this about the French.  It has added pleasingly to my cultural knowledge.


----------



## geve

How to tell that a French person is being sarcastic?
Well that's very easy: they always are! So there.

 

When I was 20 we had a 14 years-old girl from the USA staying with me and my family for a while. She was considered part of the family and treated as such, and I took her out with my friends too. At first she really had a hard time, and she kept saying "Why are you being so mean to me?" It took us a few explanations but eventually, she understood what sarcasm was. She even started using it too - only she was sometimes misusing it, and was just being mean when trying to be sarcastic.  

So here's my advice to you, Alan: every time a French person says something mean, just consider it's sarcasm.  

I'm afraid I can't be more specific about gesture or tone of voice or... It seems to me that these are pretty much the same in other languages too. (only they might be used less often!) But perhaps non-natives who have experienced it would be able to point out a very French way of being sarcastic?


_PS: Some might consider that Parisians are particularly sarcastic. Some might even consider that my family, friends, and I are particularly sarcastic. This is typically a cultural issue, indeed, so DDT was not being sarcastic!_
_[Edit]...or maybe he was, since he's a Parisian!  _


----------



## emma42

So, geve, the French are "always sarcastic"?  Oh, really?  I hadn't noticed.

Seriously, though, your post was really informative.  (Oh no!  Everything I write now sounds sarcastic!  It is not meant to)


----------



## geve

emma42 said:
			
		

> So, geve, the French are "always sarcastic"? Oh, really? I hadn't noticed.
> 
> Seriously, though, your post was really informative. (Oh no! Everything I write now sounds sarcastic! It is not meant to)


There's no way to be sure, indeed... especially when I can only _read_ you and cannot infer anything from your gestures or attitude. I'll just have to trust your word  

But actually, I've always thought that the British were also pretty good (if not better) at sarcasm... was I wrong?


----------



## emma42

No, geve, the Brits are excellent at sarcasm.  On a personal note, I find that people sometimes think I am being sarcastic when I am not - particularly when I am being really serious or passionate about something.  Maybe this is because my style is sometimes rather more "Celtic" or "southern European" than some Brits are used to.  I know I have just indulged in cultural stereotypes to illustrate a point, but if anyone does not know what I mean or is offended, I will gladly choose different words or try to explain myself.


----------



## geve

So would you be able to describe the British way of being sarcastic?

I found this on wikipedia about how to recognize sarcasm:


> Ce sont souvent un certain accent ou une certaine mimique autour des yeux et de la bouche qui aident à reconnaître cette espèce d'humour. Dans les textes écrits, on le comprend plus difficilement


I'll have to carry around a mirror to check if that's accurate.  

I wonder, what historical/cultural aspects can lead a nation to be more sarcastic than others?


----------



## emma42

I would agree with that description, but only to an extent.

It is possible to be sarcastic in a dry, deadpan way, with no special use of expressions around the eyes/mouth etc. I think it is closely related to *irony*, which is interesting as Brits often accuse Americans of having *no sense of irony* at all.

I know I have not fullly addressed your post, but I need to think about it!


----------



## KittyCatty

> On a personal note, I find that people sometimes think I am being sarcastic when I am not - particularly when I am being really serious or passionate about something


.
emma42, I know exactly what you mean! One of my teachers has a stupid way of mocking/annoying me, by asking me if I walk in and say Hello, how are you, he says "now, is that a real or sarcastic question?". Apparently, everything I say sounds sarcastic (to him anyway). I'm thinking this is to do with the inflections of my voice, but I'm not sure exactly what. I certainly don't mean it anyway.
By the way, when I was in France I tried irony but it didn't really come off. We were at a nature place and one of the people I was with pointed to a pig in its muddy pen and said to me 'Propre?' and I went 'Oui' in what I thought was said in a tone like 'No, never!'. But I think she thought I was dumb or didn't understand cos she asked me again until I said no. I thought then, maybe the English are just more sarcastic, or the French do it in different ways. Then again, maybe she thought I didn't understand her, it was that simple.


----------



## Benjy

what surprises me about this is that in my own personal experience.. the french never really got my sarcastic antics at all while i was living there. that might have been down to the situation, or maybe my french was just that horrific. i don't know. i was only the victim of sacasm a few times and hence drew the conclusion that it was part of french humour. how wrong it appears i was.


----------



## emma42

Hmm. It certainly sounds like the French indulge in sarcasm.  I think the problem may be one of inflection or of difficulty being understood in the first place, so that any sarcasm is not "caught".  I think that if I try any sarcasm in a language not my mother tongue I will state clearly that I am being sarcastic!

Kittycatty, I sympathise with you re your teacher.  He is out of order and should not be speaking so to his students.  It is outrageous.


----------



## KittyCatty

Yes, concerning the sarcasm I think I appeared too much like an adolescent learning the language and clearly not proficient in it, so my sarcasm didn't work.  I don't think I'll try it again in a hurry! Concerning my teacher - he's just like that - mocking in nature! He's pretty sarcastic himself. It got on my nerves but I had my last day today anyway!  My friends disagreed with him, and I do, that's what matters!


----------



## ceci '79

I think sarcasm is very irritating and cowardly. Like a safe way of insulting somebody without facing the consequences.


----------



## emma42

It has, indeed, been described as "the lowest form of wit". I can't remember who said that, though. I will try to find out.

Someone on the net thinks it was Oscar Wilde.


----------



## la reine victoria

I've just remembered an occasion when I was successfully sarcastic in French.

On holiday in Britanny, staying at an hotel where we were well known, my husband managed to trip on something and the upper of one of his sandals became detached from the sole.  I knew exactly how to mend it.  I went and bought a packet of tiny nails then, taking the sandal with me, I went into the hotel bar to ask if I could borrow a hammer.

One of the old boys sitting at the bar said, "Voici ce qu'il vous faut faire . . . ."  He then gave me a lengthy explanation of how to mend the sandal.  When he'd finished I looked at him and said, "Alors, vous êtes cordonnier?"

Everyone found this incredibly funny.  There was general agreement that I was "very French for an English person".  I was treated to several drinks . . . . . I don't remember much more. 



LRV


----------



## geve

emma42 said:
			
		

> It has, indeed, been described as "the lowest form of wit".


Well you know, one has to adapt to his/her interlocutor's intelligence (hint: I might currently be having a sort of mimic around the eyes and/or mouth)  

In my mind though, sarcasm also includes self-deprecation.

But I admit that sarcasm is easy. I also confess that I can hardly resist an easy joke.


----------



## emma42

It was not me who said it, it was (probably) that Oscar Wilde!
I, too, like an easy joke, but it's usually of the double-entendre variety.  I can't help it.  I like Frankie Howerd.

LRV - I LOVE that story.  The context gives a good clue as to the sort of occasion one might be able to use sarcasm in French.


----------

