# Communal showering



## Outsider

This is a continuation of a conversation between Avok and I that started in another thread. Others are welcome to give their contributions and opinions, too.



avok said:


> just the shower cubicles... to be honest most schools do not have showers so you have to go back to home to get washed. There are of course always exceptions.
> As I saw it in American movies all girls or all boys have shower in the same room/space all "naked". That's not the case here, that's what I am trying to say. Is it like in America in Portugal?


I guess so. Schools normally have showers for the students. Some of the students use the showers while others go home to shower. But my impression is that many (most?) do shower at school. Some of the more inhibited wear underwear or bathing suits (after swimming) while showering and cover themselves with a towel while changing out of and into their clothes, but others undress completely.

Well, this is based on old experience. It's been years... and I don't go to the gym, although I should.


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## avok

Hi outs,

As I told you before, communal showering is not common here.  I used to go to a local swimming pool when I was little and there were showers there but nobody would take off their bathing suits.


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## fenixpollo

Communal showering is typical at gymnasiums/fitness centers in the US, as well as in the locker rooms at public schools. When I was in PE (physical education) classes in secondary school, we were not given the option of not bathing, and we were not allowed to go home in the middle of the day to shower. Everyone had to take a shower in the communal shower.


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## tvdxer

In the U.S., many are afraid of communal showering (which is always with the same sex, of course), because they think they are fat or for whatever other reason.  In the past, it was quite common for high schools to require their students to shower, nude, after physical education sessions; today this seems to be rarer.


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## Pedro y La Torre

In my gym at home there are separate showers however in the university gym everyone has to shower together.

I don't think it really makes a different one way or the other.


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## heidita

In Spanish swimming pools ( in Madrid) the communal showering is normal, but only the same sex. All the swimming pools I have visited, there is one private cabin to get dressed and to have a shower privately , too. 

And here we go again: I didn't think it was _normal_ that up to 10 year old boys should be allowed to have showers together with their mothers in the women's shower and dressing area. 
After written complaints, now boys are obliged to shower with their fathers or with their mothers but in the "children area". 

I have also seen, *Outsider*, that mostly young girls do not undress completely to have the shower after swimming. They, with their beautiful bodies seem to be "ashamed" while very old ladies (over 70) have no problem to undress and shower naked.
With the age one seems to sort of "go back in time" as very young children don't have any problem with nakedness either.


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## Outsider

heidita said:


> And here we go again: I didn't think it was normal that up to 10 year old boys should be allowed to have showers together with their mothers in the women's shower and dressing area.


I think that mothers do that to keep their children within sight. When I was a kid, I used to go with my mother when I needed to use a public restroom.  
My father was a distant man.



heidita said:


> I have also seen, *Outsider*, that mostly young girls do not undress completely to have the shower after swimming. They, with their beautiful bodies seem to be "ashamed" while very old ladies (over 70) have no problem to undress and shower naked.
> With the age one seems to sort of "go back in time" as very young children don't have any problem with nakedness either.


It's the same with many boys. I think that puberty is a difficult stage in life where they become uncomfortable and insecure about their changing bodies. Later, most of them outgrow that shyness. It is a shame, because they are completely wrong to think that they're ugly.


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## stanley

At my old school we had showers, but to be honest, nobody ever washed himself/herself in there. Everybody goes home. I guess it's not because the people are to prude or something, they just don't want to show themselves naked.


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## panjandrum

Once upon a time I was at school.
The boys' shower was a communal shower.
The girls had individual shower cubicles.
Please don't ask how I know.


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## LaReinita

In high school, after swimming class, we all washed our hair in the communal shower, but no one took off their bathing suits. Most changed into their clothes quite modestly, including myself. As for gym class, there was a communal shower, and 3 private showers, but they made no difference. The gymnasium was at one end of the school and all the classrooms were at the other. The teacher never let us go until about 5 minutes before the bell rang. We couldn't have taken showers if we wanted to because we would risk being late for class as we only had 3 minutes between classes. I loved my senior year, when my gym class was last period of the day and I didn't have to go to another class all sweaty and yucky.


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## emma42

Oh, what awful memories this brings back.  In the 1970s we _had _to take communal (single-sex) showers after PE from the age of 14.  It was appalling, and I can't imagine that young people are forced to do this now.  It's against personal liberty etc.  I could not _believe _that I had to take my clothes off in front of everyone else and get in the shower, but we had to.  I don't know what would have happened if anyone had refused.  In those days, I suppose it was quite likely that the teacher could have forced us!  

The embarrassment about different rates of growth (breasts, pubic hair etc) was terrible.  I imagine the boys felt the same.  I mean, at 14, some people have adult bodies and some still have the body of  a child.

I wouldn't care now, however.  Not that I ever take any exercise, so it really doesn't apply.


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## coconutpalm

Communal showering is popular in northern China. At least this is what I infer from the conversations with my university roommates. They often talked about going to a public bathhouse.

As for school, there are many boarding school in China. In some poorer places, we don't have commual showering and students have to bathe in their own bathtubs, in their dorms. As for schools in cities? I don't know. Yet when I was in my last year of high school, a new dorm building was built and there is bathhouse with cubicles, yet without doors - that's why most girls simply don't use it.

Nonetheless, southerners seem much more reluctant to take communal showerings than northerners. That's terrible experience for nearly every southerner I know to go to a northern university and take communal showerings!  Although we get used to it after some attempts, most would still prefer a cubicle WITH a door.

And one of the best things of coming to Shanghai for my post-graduate study is that I don't have to take communal showerings any more.


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## Kajjo

Germans schools have communal shower rooms for physical education. When I went to school, almost no one used them, though. The showers were relatively shabby, the lockers too small and the time between classes severely limited. During the last school years, the sport lessons were the last of the day, luckily. During swimming education, there were only communal locker rooms to change and no one cared.

I do not know how it is today in schools, but my guess is that many pupils still do not take showers after physical education lessons. There might be drastic differences between individual schools, depending on the quality of the facilities and behaviour of the particular group. 

In public spas and swimming pools there used to be only communal showers, sometimes with doorless booths. Nowadays, many public swimming pools offer private booths with doors and a communal shower room. People usually use the private booth if they want to wash themselves (with soap and being naked) and the communal rooms if they just want to rinse of the chlorinated water (leaving the bathing suit on).

Kajjo


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## Etcetera

Outsider said:


> Schools normally have showers for the students. Some of the students use the showers while others go home to shower.


Russian schools normally have no showers. I guess private schools may have showers for their students, but in state schools it's something unheard of. And, as in Russian schools breaks are rather short (15-20 minutes) students don't go home to take shower. 

But swimming pools (and stadiums, I believe) do have communal showering rooms. And in swimming pools, there's a strict rule that people should take all their clothes off before taking the shower. Well, quite frankly, that was one of the reasons why I only was in a swimming pool twice.


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## Outsider

Etcetera said:


> Russian schools normally have no showers. I guess private schools may have showers for their students, but in state schools it's something unheard of. And, as in Russian schools breaks are rather short (15-20 minutes) students don't go home to take shower.


I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. When I said that students "go home" to shower, I should have said that they "shower at home" instead. That is, they _don't_ shower after Physical Education class, and wait until classes are over and they get home to do so. There is no time to go home during an intermission, of course. In fact, we often had only 5 to 10 minutes to shower before the next class, which might be another reason why some students prefer not to shower.

And here's another one: cold water. In one school I went to the water was heated with solar pannels, but it seemed that whenever there was a hint of clouds in the sky the water would be cold.  Mind you, this was back in the early nineties.


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## Etcetera

Outsider said:


> I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. When I said that students "go home" to shower, I should have said that they "shower at home" instead. That is, they _don't_ shower after Physical Education class, and wait until classes are over and they get home to do so. There is no time to go home during an intermission, of course. In fact, we often had only 5 to 10 minutes to shower before the next class, which might be another reason why some students prefer not to shower.


Thank you for clarifying this issue!


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## ayupshiplad

I think in the UK it's quite similar to Russia in the respect that most private schools have showers whilst most state schools don't. At my school you only have showers in the swimming pool bit, some which are communal and a few with really flimsy curtains that cover about half of the cubicle! So basically, no-one really wants to have a shower. Not necessarily because we're prudish or 'ashamed' of our bodies, but just because it's a bit weird. The answer? Apart from the ultimate swimming keeners, every girl either had an ear infection, 'chlorine allergy', or was on their period every week


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## sdr083

In Norway all schools (as far as I know) have showers and children are given enough time to shower between classes.  In secondary school (ages 13-16) people would usually _clean _themselves somehow after gym class, but there was not a lot of walking around completely naked.  After swimming however there was no other choice (exept for telling the teacher you had your period and skipping the class completely...).  By the time we were 16 people had got over the embarrasment and you would be considered strange (at best) if you didn't have a proper shower after gym/swimming.
Public swimming pools have communal showers and for hygenic reasons everybody is supposed to shower without clothes before entering.  Only very shy teenagers keep their swimsuits on.  Have never seen booths for showering (though there are sometimes a few to get dressed in) and have no problem with this frankly.


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## luis masci

Here in Argentina, the only place that I’ve seen communal showering was during my military service. We were not given the option; it was an obligation. But as it was during military dictatorship I didn’t care so much of it because there were a lot of worse things to worry.
On all other places like schools, swimming pools, clubs…I’ve seen only individual booths (with and without doors).
We had not showers during my school time. Apparently different what I’ve seen in this thread for other countries, in our school system, we have gym classes totally apart of ordinary classes. So there was not problem for us to go home immediately after gym class and take a shower there.


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## Mahaodeh

Where I come from totally underssing, whether with the same sex or not, is taboo; even if there were any communal showers nobody would use them and schools defintely can NOT enforce it on students or else we will have riots!!  In swimming pools, gyms...etc. there are some public showers but you have seperate stalls where you can shower in private.

You don't even have communal showers in the army or in prisons.


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## CrazyArcher

When I studied at school, there was a shower there, but no one used it.

When I was in the army's bootcamp, the showers there had walls dividing between people so it wasn't one mass of bodies. Overall, it was okay, I think. If one spoends 24 hours a day with the same people, showering together isn't a significant detail.


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## Tjahzi

sdr083 said:


> In Norway all schools (as far as I know) have showers and children are given enough time to shower between classes.  In secondary school (ages 13-16) people would usually _clean _themselves somehow after gym class, but there was not a lot of walking around completely naked.  After swimming however there was no other choice (exept for telling the teacher you had your period and skipping the class completely...).  By the time we were 16 people had got over the embarrasment and you would be considered strange (at best) if you didn't have a proper shower after gym/swimming.
> Public swimming pools have communal showers and for hygenic reasons everybody is supposed to shower without clothes before entering.  Only very shy teenagers keep their swimsuits on.  Have never seen booths for showering (though there are sometimes a few to get dressed in) and have no problem with this frankly.



That is pretty much the case for Sweden too. I remember being forced (as in, it was requested of me) to shower after PE in primary school, but you got over it pretty soon.


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## avok

I just cant understand the idea of being "forced" to get "naked" at that early age and ironically, this happens in richer countries that can easily afford seperate cubicles. Is there any Freudian theory for that??


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## Kajjo

avok said:


> I just cant understand the idea of being "forced" to get "naked" at that early age and ironically, this happens in richer countries that can easily afford seperate cubicles. Is there any Freudian theory for that??


No Freudian theory available. In many countries nakedness in same sex groups is not considered to be taboo. I believe that in Germany no man has any problems to be naked in a communal locker room. This is about prudishness and cultural, religious taboos, not about being rich or developed. 

An education targeted at removing the taboos of nakedness and talking straight-forwardly about sexual matters is seen as advantageous in many countries.

Kajjo


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## avok

Kajjo said:


> No Freudian theory available. In many countries nakedness in same sex groups is not considered to be taboo. I believe that in Germany no man has any problems to be naked in a communal locker room. This is about prudishness and cultural, religious taboos, not about being rich or developed.
> 
> An education targeted at removing the taboos of nakedness and talking straight-forwardly about sexual matters is seen as advantageous in many countries.
> 
> Kajjo


 
I am sorry but I have to disagree, people dont get naked out of their own will, they are "forced" to do it when they are "children". What is the advantage here? 

I am 28 and anyone can see me naked as long as "I" want them to see. It is not about being ashamed or a religious thing. If it is "my" body only I can decide what to do with it. no one could have forced me to get naked when I was 12 or 13 . Nakedness is never a taboo here, turks were even more naked in the Ottoman times in Turkish bathrooms or hamams. (just like outsider mentioned before.) 

This is "not" just about prudishness and cultural, religious taboos but about individualist patterns of the society that one lives in. All naked in a communal showering I cant see anything individualist here, it is collectivist and apparently Germans and Swedes (as mentioned by Tjahzi) are not as individualist as I thought. and I cant see any relation between being naked and talking straight-forwardly about sexual matters, many people are still naked in so called primitive societies, are they talking straight forward about sexual matters?

Do you really talk about sexual matters openly in Germany that's got deep Protestant ethics? I am not talking/asking about tacky TV shows or the availability to "adult" world. 
I am sure Freud had some theory about that too...


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## Outsider

avok said:


> I just cant understand the idea of being "forced" to get "naked" at that early age and ironically, this happens in richer countries that can easily afford seperate cubicles. Is there any Freudian theory for that??


Hygienic concerns coupled with a certain preference for uniformity? I don't think you need advanced psychoanalysis to explain it.



avok said:


> Nakedness is never a taboo here, turks were even more naked in the Ottoman times in Turkish bathrooms or hamams. (just like outsider mentioned before.)
> 
> This is "not" just about prudishness and cultural, religious taboos but about individualist patterns of the society that one lives in.


Ah, but maybe it became a taboo _after_ the Ottoman period...

Although I must say that I don't think words like "taboo" or "prudeness" are suitable in this context. In Portuguese there is the word _pudor_; I'm not sure how to say this in English -- modesty? A certain reservation about one's body. 

I don't see any connection with individualism or collectivism. And, if anything, collectivist societies (among which I would _not_ include Germany or Sweden) tend to be more conservative, and hence less comfortable with nudity.


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## avok

Outsider said:


> Hygienic concerns coupled with a certain preference for uniformity? I don't think you need advanced psychoanalysis to explain it.
> 
> Ah, but maybe it became a taboo _after_ the Ottoman period...
> 
> Although I must say that I don't think words like "taboo" or "prudeness" are suitable in this context. In Portuguese there is the word _pudor_; I'm not sure how to say this in English -- modesty? A certain reservation about one's body.
> 
> I don't see any connection with individualism or collectivism. And, if anything, collectivist societies (among which I would _not_ include Germany or Sweden) tend to be more conservative, and hence less comfortable with nudity.


 
No Outsider, It's never been a taboooooooo neither after nor before the Ottoman times. Here people do some things together, some things by themselves, and having shower naked, all together, is just not one of these things that people are expected or forced to do. If a teacher forces a young pupil to get naked and have a shower, the parents will take the kid away from the school or the teacher will be sued etc.

By the way,I did not say Germany and Sweden are collectivist but I said   
_"All naked in a communal showering I cant see anything individualist here, it is collectivist and apparently Germans and Swedes (as mentioned by Tjahzi) are not as individualist as I thought_.": Germans and Swedes are "less individualist" (but still so) than I once thought.


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## Porteño

Does anyone remember the government advertising slogan in the UK during a drought back in the 60s? 'Save Water - take a shower with a friend.'


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## Mahaodeh

??? Why don't they just say "save water, turn off the tap when you apply soap".


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## Porteño

Mahaodeh said:


> ??? Why don't they just say "save water, turn off the tap when you apply soap".


 
Because it was considered humorous and the Brits like their commercials to be funny, otherwise they switch off.


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## Kajjo

avok said:


> people dont get naked out of their own will, they are "forced" to do it when they are "children". What is the advantage here?


Little children have no problem at all with being naked. When adults and children are used to bath naked, to go from sleeping room to  bath room naked an so on, they will see nothing "forced" or shameful about being naked. Maybe it is not necessary at all, but it surely is advantageous to feel no shame about your own body inside you closest family. Equally, if children of the same sex learn that showering or redressing in communal rooms is normal and nothing to be ashamed of, they will not be ashamed of it. They will not feel forced, but just normal doing it.



> This is "not" just about prudishness and cultural, religious taboos but about individualist patterns of the society that one lives in.


What else is it? I sincerely believe that it is about cultural (what we learn from parents, traditions, how a society works) and religious taboos. How else could you come up with a restricted behaviour? And beware, I do not say that these taboos are negative -- many of the cultural traits of a society evolved because they support the society.



> All naked in a communal showering I cant see anything individualist here, it is collectivist and apparently Germans and Swedes (as mentioned by Tjahzi) are not as individualist as I thought. and


Well, obviously you do not know what individualism and collectivism is all about. Not being ashamed of your naked body has surely no connection with collectivism. As far as I know, Germany is a very individualist country, at least _a lot _more so than Turkey. Look at the diversity and variety of political, religious, cultural preferences and habits.



> I cant see any relation between being naked and talking straight-forwardly about sexual matters,


I can see the relation quite clearly. You are right that there does not necessarily have to be a relation, but in my life's experience there always has been a relation for those people I knew.



> Do you really talk about sexual matters openly in Germany that's got deep Protestant ethics? I am not talking/asking about tacky TV shows or the availability to "adult" world.


You simply do not know anything about protestantism, it appears. Northern Germany is by far dominated by protestantism and used to be very much more open about sexuality than catholicism or islam. Think about female priests, tolerated divorce, no enforcement of virginity before marriage and a general attitude of unprudishness. Bathing naked in the ocean is common in Northern Germany, but very uncommon for Catholics or Muslims.

Kajjo


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## Outsider

I noticed that some posters used the term "communal shower" in a more restrictive sense than I had in mind; or perhaps I used it incorrectly. They used the term for when there is a single, large shower room for everyone (like this). What I had in mind was not only that, but also when there cubicles with one shower in each (like this). I didn't think of making a distinction between the two situations, because my experience had been that even when there are stalls separating the showers the space where you are supposed to hang your clothes and change is common. It has since occurred to me (I think some posters alluded to this) that there might also be a division for hanging one's clothes and changing next to the shower, inside the cubicle. I couldn't find a good picture, but I've showered in a cubicle like this on a beach.

Anyway, so I googled the phrase "communal shower" to check how it was used, and found this curious old article from the BBC. 
A quote:



> [...] the North Westminster community school in London has scrapped communal showers after complaints that they breached Islamic law.
> 
> While the communal shower might owe its origins to Victorian public schools, the independent sector has already moved towards more modern changing facilities.


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## avok

Kajjo said:


> What else is it? I sincerely believe that it is about cultural (what we learn from parents, traditions, how a society works) and religious taboos. How else could you come up with a restricted behaviour? And beware, I do not say that these taboos are negative.
> 
> Really?
> 
> Well, obviously you do not know what individualism and collectivism is all about. Not being ashamed of your naked body has surely no connection with collectivism.
> But having to shower with some other guys in a communal showering is about *collectivism*. Or maybe Germans are "soooooo individualist" that they dont even see "other people" around them in the shower
> 
> As far as I know, Germany is a very individualist country, at least _a lot _more so than Turkey. Look at the diversity and variety of political, religious, cultural preferences and habits.
> 
> Cultural diversity has got nothing to do with individualism, and believe me Turkey is much more diverse (I would not even discuss it here) than any country in Europe.
> 
> When will you all understand that individualism is not about the number of people that someone shares their bed with? that it is not about swimming naked in the sea? that it is not about losing virginity at the age of 12? that it is not about egoism. It is about being able to contribute to the society that you live in, being able to express your feelings, sharing your ideas ,not being pushed into a category you have not choosen, not doing things that others do or things you are supposed to do, being given the chance of exploring your own sexuality/spiritual world/ideals etc. If I have chosen not to show my genitalia to someone I have never known before this should be respected in an "individualist" country apparently not in Germany...By the way, Turkey is a Muslim Middle Eastern country, so "any country" in _Europe _can be mooooore individualist than Turkey, not just Germany hahaha. This fact also should be respected though. I think, that the real individualist countries are Anglo-Saxon countries where people are encouraged to "talk" and "contribute" not just ignoring others.
> 
> Northern Germany is by far dominated by protestantism and used to be very much more open about sexuality than catholicism or islam. Think about female priests, tolerated divorce, no enforcement of virginity before marriage and a general attitude of unprudishness. Bathing naked in the ocean is common in Northern Germany, but very uncommon for Catholics or Muslims.
> By the way, you should come to Turkey (apparently you have not been), we have special coastal areas for people who bathe naked in the sea and it is much hotter than the Northern Sea.
> 
> Kajjo


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## Outsider

avok said:
			
		

> But having to shower with some other guys in a communal showering is about collectivism.


Avok, I don't think you can equate socializing (for want of a better word) with collectivism, and privacy with individualism. They are not the same.


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## avok

They are not the same but they have something to do with each other. I still think that having a shower is something "individual" and something individual should be respected more in an individualist country?


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## Outsider

It seems to me that the issue here is that you and others do not like the idea of being forced to shower with strangers. I can understand that. I was never forced either way, but if I had been I probably wouldn't have liked it, since I am generally rebellious to arbitrary rules. 

On the other hand, suppose it all happened while you were still very young. Years later, would you even remember your initial reluctance? Wouldn't you probably adjust very quickly to the situation? To make an analogy, many children are not too keen on going to school when it's their first day, but they soon get used to it.


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## Porteño

At my school in the UK, communal bathing and/or showering was the custom after sports, particularly after games of rugby in the winter when everyone was liberally covered in mud. No 'forcing' was entailed, it was simply a perfectly natural custom to which each boy got used to it and I don't remember any complaints, nor feelings of embarrassment.


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## samanthalee

panjandrum said:


> Once upon a time I was at school.
> The boys' shower was a communal shower.
> The girls had individual shower cubicles.
> Please don't ask how I know.



We have the same arrangement in Singapore too. The boys' shower is communal shower even though it is not common practice for brothers to bathe together at home (regardless of age). The things we inherit from our colonial past...



coconutpalm said:


> Nonetheless, southerners seem much more reluctant to take communal showerings than northerners. That's terrible experience for nearly every southerner I know to go to a northern university and take communal showerings!



That's totally true. Us the Singaporean students were properly scandalized when our female classmates from Northern China walked around naked in our locker room.

We don't have a habit of communal showering. I won't know where to lay my eyes when faced with so many naked bodies.


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## Kajjo

avok said:


> They are not the same but they have something to do with each other. I still think that having a shower is something "individual" and something individual should be respected more in an individualist country?


No, you are mistaking privacy with individualism.

Individualism is a social attitude concerned about liberty and independence, about the acceptance of diversity and plurality in a society. Individualists stress the importance of what single persons are able to achieve, about how much and how they contribute to and take from society.

Collectivism is a social attitude concerned about how a collective (a group of people) contributes to a society rather than individuals, which are of no real importance to collectivistic societies and communities.

Behaviour of individuals, like showering in privacy or public, is neither individualistic nor collectivistic.

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

avok said:
			
		

> Cultural diversity has got nothing to do with individualism, and believe me Turkey is much more diverse (I would not even discuss it here) than any country in Europe.


That might be true. Acceptance of cultural diversity has to do with individualism or collectivism -- at least to a certain degree.

I seriously did not understand your subsequent, red-marked ranting about what you call individualism. Does it have to do with our discussion?

Kajjo


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## Lugubert

In first grade, all kids once a month went to the central school for a bath. We had individual tubs, boys in one row, girls in an adjoing row like ===. Nobody seemed to find it strange. I suppose we just weren't interested in how the others looked. Anyway, somebody not concentrating on the scrubbing would have been reprimanded, if necessary probably physically, by the overseeing ladies. The first time, one girl initially protested. "We have a bathtub at home!" Didn't help, though. Where I lived, there was a bathtub in the cellar of our stairway for the 6 families, which we had to book in advance.

No shower in our school, but separate locker rooms for boys and girls. Phys ed (more like playing) was mixed.

Later, in a boys only school, the communal showering after phys ed wasn't forced, but no problem for anybody.

During my year of compulsory military service, the (communal) showers had only cold water. Once or twice, following some successful efforts, we were allowed showers with hot water at another building than ours.

Later still, after sports, Swedish wealth must have increased, because I remember only booths from that time. We of course walked just holding soap and a towel from where we (un)dressed to the showers.


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## anothersmith

fenixpollo said:


> Communal showering is typical at gymnasiums/fitness centers in the US



In my experience, gyms and fitness centers in the U.S. have individual shower stalls.  But maybe that's only for the women.


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