# Icelandic: þessi / þetta



## Alxmrphi

*See here*.

If '*þessi*' is the main word (dictionary form), and '*þetta*' is only used in the Nominative and Accusative neuter declensions, in the sentence:

*Er þetta gömul stytta?*

I can't understand it, I would have thought either masculine form (þessi) because it's not linking to anything, like a dictionary form of a word, or it would be the feminine (relating to the feminine word *stytta* (_statue_))

What I can't understand is why it is *þetta*?
I see *þetta* so much more than *þessi* that I think maybe there is a rule I don't know about where it is the used form in certain cases.

If anyone knows or can shed some light on this that'd be great!

Takk.
*
[Edit]*


> Demonstrative pronouns, like possessive pronouns, actually modify nouns. They usually don't stand alone. Thus, they have to match the inflections of the nouns they modify and will coincide in case, number, and gender.


Ok after reading this, it does look like it should be* þessi*, as *gömul stytta* couldn't be anymore of a _'feminine declension'.._


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## Magb

I made a post explaining a similar phenomenon in Norwegian a while ago here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=6337341#post6337341. I believe Icelandic works the same way. The gist of it is that when _þessi_ modifies a noun directly (i.e. when it's functioning as a *determiner*) it agrees in number, gender and case with the noun it modifies. On the other hand, when it references a noun indirectly (i.e. when it's functioning as a *pronoun*) you always use _þetta_.

In the example you posted ("Er þetta gömul stytta?") it's a bit hard to see that _þetta_ is a pronoun and not a determiner because the question word order make it stand right next to the noun (actually the adjective, but that's part of the noun _phrase_). It's easier to see in a declarative statement: "Þetta er gömul stytta".

An example of a sentence where _þessi_ does decline would be "Ég sá þess*a* gaml*a* stytt*u*" ("I saw this old statue"), where all three words are in the accusative.


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## Alxmrphi

Ok tell me if I make any mistakes, it was hard to follow with all the new terms..
Let me see if I can sum it up for myself:



> The gist of it is that when _þessi_ modifies a noun directly (i.e. when it's functioning as a *determiner*) it agrees in number, gender and case with the noun it modifies



This black dog
These green shoes
*(þessi)*



> On the other hand, when it references a noun indirectly (i.e. when it's functioning as a *pronoun*) you always use _þetta_.



(like seperated by to be / að vera ?)
This is a black dog
These are green shoes

(*þetta*)

I hope my assumption is true (about the separation of 'to be' makes the determiner (direct modifier) a pronoun (separated by 'to be') because I can understand the next sentence then...

Because, in questions the verb and noun are inverted, which puts it right next to it where it is NOT separated by 'to be' but a conjugation of it, IS there, but just before the word, so it is the pronoun, because 'to be' is present, but it's inverted as it is a question, which puts it next to it like it would be a determiner (something like this black dog)

So, let me see if I can get these sentences right then..

*Determiner*
*Pronoun*

*Þetta er gömul stytta* - This is an old statue
*Er þetta gömul styrra* - Is this an old statue?

*Þessi svartur hundur* - This black dog
*Þetta er svartur hundur* - This is a black dog
*
Ég réttaði henni þessa bláu poka - *I handed (to) her these blue bags*
Þessir eru bláir pokarnir, Ég réttaði þá henni *- These are the blue bags, I handed them to her.

In the first one it's the same thing (pronoun), in the second one *I hope* is a determiner and the other, a pronoun, as for the last sentences, no sentence has taken me longer to figure out in my entire life but I think I got it in the end. (ahh just spotted a mistake now...fixed)

Is that right Mag?


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## thegooseking

That seems correct, though I think it's any verb, not just 'to be'. In English, if you can substitute '*this*' for the word '*the*' and the sentence still makes sense, it's a determiner, and if it doesn't make sense, it's a pronoun. E.g. "the black dog" makes sense, but "the is a black dog" doesn't.

It doesn't really work in Icelandic, because *hinn *itself is both a determiner and a demonstrative pronoun (not to mention the complication of postfixed definite articles), but it's one way to understand it.


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## Alxmrphi

I had wondered but as it was a new thing I only wanted to understand the difference between them, I've had a little read about Determiners and Pronouns in the past hour or so and I think I know the difference better and can widen my knowledge to more than "separated by 'to be'"... which is a good thing, I had read about the substitution thing (works for pronouns but not for determiners, like you said)

What I don't understand is what you said '_doesn't really work in Icelandic_', because Magb gave an explanation about how it functions, so that is what we were talking about and we come up with some different sentences to show it and then you say it doesn't work?

Or are you only talking about the separate definite article? I thought we were just talking about *This/These Þessi/Þetta*... if you are talking about something else can you let me know because right now I don't feel as if I've understood anything....

I thought 'hinn' was 'the' (definite article) and *Þessi / Sá* were the demonstrative pronouns... ?


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## thegooseking

No, no. All I meant was that the substitution 'trick' doesn't work in Icelandic.

*Hinn *is the definite article, like you say, but it's also a demonstrative pronoun (meaning something like "that one") so *hinn er...* is a perfectly legitimate construct. Therefore *hinn svartur hundur* and *hinn er svartur hundur* both make sense, so the substitution trick doesn't work.

There are three demonstrative pronouns in Icelandic: the two you mentioned, plus *hinn*, is basically what I'm saying.


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## Alxmrphi

Ah....... I was reading the explanations about the English language (where for the most part it does work) I didn't realise that's what you were talking about (I'm releived!!)

I didn't know the separate definite article was also a demonstrative pronoun, when I was double-checking I found this and it only shows two..
But of course Wikipedia has the right answer

Do you agree with this statement:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> . _Þessi_ and _sá_ roughly correspond to _this/that_ and _hinn_ means _the other one of two_.



It's just because *sá* seems to be very much '*that one*' and I wasn't sure if you meant '*that one*' like '*that other one*', so I thought it's best to get a consensus before learning it.


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## butra

Magb said:


> "Ég sá þess*a* gaml*a* stytt*u*" ("I saw this old statue"), ...


 
Ég sá þessa gömlu styttu


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## butra

Alex_Murphy said:


> *Þetta er gömul stytta* - This is an old statue
> *Er þetta gömul styrra* - Is this an old statue?
> 
> *Þessi svartur hundur* - This black dog
> *Þetta er svartur hundur* - This is a black dog
> 
> *Ég réttaði henni þessa bláu poka - *I handed (to) her these blue bags
> *Þessir eru bláir pokarnir, Ég réttaði þá henni *- These are the blue bags, I handed them to her.


 
þetta er gömul stytta.
Er þetta gömul stytta? -typo!

Þessi svarti hundur.
Þetta er svartur hundur.

Ég rétti henni þessa bláu poka.
Þetta eru bláu pokarnir. Ég rétti henni þá.


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## butra

thegooseking said:


> *Hinn *is the definite article, like you say, but it's also a demonstrative pronoun (meaning something like "that one") so *hinn er...* is a perfectly legitimate construct. Therefore *hinn svartur hundur* and *hinn er svartur hundur* both make sense, so the substitution trick doesn't work.


 
hinn svartur hundur -does not work!

hinn svarti hundur - the black dog -rarely used
svarti hundurinn -the black dog -far more common

hinn svarti hundurinn -the other black dog
hinn er svartur hundur - the other is a black dog


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## Alxmrphi

Ahh I didn't know 'svartur' had to change with þessi, I'll look into that rule in a sec
And of course, it is *þetta *in the last one, I was careless there! (It's separated by 'eru' !)

But what confuses me is, ahhh ok... if you see here....
I've just noticed there are two entries for *að rétta* .... one has the* retti* ending and the other has the *rettaði* ending, how come this is the case, does it take a different ending depending on the meaning or not, I just thought someone entered it in twice by mistake when I looked up the past tense...

But now I see both entries have different past tenses....

And I see the other thing, I chose the strong declension of blue, but poki has the definite article attached which means I need the weak declension! (Another silly mistake!)

But I am quite confused about the *rétti / réttaði *thing though


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## Magb

Ah yes, the mistake we all made was forgetting that determiners make a noun phrase definite, so you have to use weak adjectives with them.

This, however, is a different issue:


butra said:


> Ég rétti henni þessa bláu poka.
> Þetta eru bláu pokarnir. Ég rétti henni þá.



Notice that you use _þetta_ even though the noun being referenced is plural, in other words you say "This are blue bags"! This is an eccentricity that as far as I know is common to every nordic language and dialect. What makes it doubly strange in Icelandic and Faroese is that the verb _does_ agree in number/person (the Scandinavian languages have no verbal agreement), so that you're saying "this are" rather than "this is" or "these are".


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## Alxmrphi

I had heard Norwegian doesn't agree in number, but I didn't realise it was the other languages as well, I had noticed it was weird to say *þetta eru* ... I think that's why I might have subconsciously chose *þessir* instead.



> What makes it doubly strange in Icelandic and Faroese* is that* *verbs *(general verbs / not a specific one) _*do*_ agree in number/person (the Scandinavian languages have no verbal agreement),


 
Hi Magb, sorry, but did you mean this?
I think I've got what you meant now, it's normal in the other languages, but they don't agree, the fact this happens and verbs do agree in number in Icelandic and Faroese make it more strange as it seems like "*This are..."*


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## Magb

Alex_Murphy said:


> Hi Magb, sorry, but did you mean this?



That's a less terrible way of phrasing it, yes! I'm having a hard time stringing two words together right now for some reason.

As for the _rétti_/_réttaði_, I think it's just that there are two different verbs with different conjugations. One is a standard weak verb, the other takes -i in both the past and the present tense. The latter is the one you want.

1: http://bin.arnastofnun.is/leit.php?id=425158
2: http://bin.arnastofnun.is/leit.php?id=427609


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## Alxmrphi

Ah, it has both Group 1 & 2 verb conjugation patterns!
But I wonder what the difference in meaning will be then?

Yep...

The one (give/hand meaning) I was looking for is the Group 2 (-i / rétti)
That dictionary doesn't seem to recognise one that behaves in the other way.


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## butra

Alex_Murphy said:


> But I wonder what the difference in meaning will be then?


 
The most common meaning of the verb rétta is:

rétta - réttaði - réttað: to put someone on trial – to gather sheep in a pound
rétta - rétti - rétt: to make something straight - to hand something out to someone


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## Alxmrphi

butra said:


> The most common meaning of the verb rétta is:
> 
> rétta - réttaði - réttað: to put someone on trial – to gather sheep in a pound
> rétta - rétti - rétt: to make something straight - *to hand something out to someone*


 
Thanks for clearing that up for me!
I intended to use it with the meaning of, to hand (*give/pass*) someone something, like, a bag, or, maybe a drink, like pick it up and give it to them, is this the correct usage or do you mean 'hand out', like a teacher hands out test papers to all the students at the beginning of an exam?


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## butra

Alex_Murphy said:


> I intended to use it with the meaning of, to hand (*give/pass*) someone something, like, a bag, or, maybe a drink, like pick it up and give it to them, is this the correct usage or do you mean 'hand out', like a teacher hands out test papers to all the students at the beginning of an exam?



You are absolutely correct! But you can also use it in the meaning to hand out papers like a teacher would do. You can say:

 réttu mér bókina – give me the book – hand it over to me
 réttu þeim blöðin – give them the papers – hand them over to them


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