# Possessive pronouns



## monkey

In Italy, is it part of everyday spoken language to use the article with the possessive pronoun, or is it more common to just use the possessive pronoun? This is probably a pretty simple/possibly dumb question, but I was just curious how it works there.


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## DDT

Hi monkey,
Welcome to WR forums!

The possessive pronoun (not the adjective, whose use is more complicated to explain) cannot ever be used without the article...
Except perhaps when requested to identify as the owner of something, i.e.    "- Di chi è questo libro? - Mio" (" - Whose book is this? - Mine ")...yet I am sincerely wondering whether this case "mio" might be considered as a pronoun or an adjective   

DDT


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## Manuela

monkey said:
			
		

> In Italy, is it part of everyday spoken language to use the article with the possessive pronoun, or is it more common to just use the possessive pronoun? This is probably a pretty simple/possibly dumb question, but I was just curious how it works there.


 
HI Monkey and welcome

There not such a thing as a dumb question!!! oops.. the teacher in me is trying to come out .  Back to the Q.. yes it's used always with the articles even in spoken Italian

ex. Il mio migliore amico-- (the) my best friend...without the article would be wrong..even though Italian people are cool  an they would understand you anyway..

Hope that answered your question
and come to us for ANY question you have
ciao


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## mimitabby

Mi dispiace, 
when you use family members, you also can use the pronoun without the article
mia mamma
tua sorella
suo padre


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## DDT

mimitabby said:
			
		

> Mi dispiace,
> when you use family members, you also can use the pronoun without the article
> mia mamma
> tua sorella
> suo padre



Actually this is considered an adjective, not a pronoun in Italian 
I ignore whether that's considered a pronoun in English   
Please enlighten me 

DDT


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## mimitabby

it is called  a "possessive pronoun" in my dictionary.
I hope that is enlightening enough..
I don't have a book with me or I would be more descriptive.


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## DDT

I'm still quite confused...
I hope some grammar expert can help to clear up this pronoun thing...

DDT


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## mimitabby

i found this, no wonder you are confused!

POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVES AND PRONOUNS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In Italian, possessive adjectives and possessive pronouns are exactly the same. They correspond to the English ones, but while in English possession is expressed by two different forms, one as adjective (my, your, his, her, etc.) and one as pronoun (mine, yours, etc.), Italian has only one form, used in both cases. 


mio my - mine 
tuo your - yours 
suo

 his/her/its - hers


nostro our - ours 
vostro your - yours (plural) 
loro their - theirs


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## DDT

But my doubt is:
when referred to a noun, as in the example you quoted ("mia mamma"), that's considered an adjective, not a pronoun  (in Italian, I mean)  

DDT


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## monkey

Two points:

- Yes, I have heard that the article can be dropped when talking about a "singular, unmodified family member" such as mio fratello, ma madre, etc., but that it must be la mia mamma or il mio papà

- Also, yes, the way in which I was talking about them would be better called "possessive adjectives"


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## monkey

Oh, I forgot...thanks!


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## Benjy

ok.
my italian may be near non existant but..

mia momma

mia isn't replacing a noun here, its describing it, so it cant be a pronoun, its a possevive adjective.

at least thats how i understand it.


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## monkey

yes...the post in which i acknowledged that is on the last page...so I'm guessing you just didn't see it. i realized that they would technically be adjectives...I was just so used to referring to the whole thing as pronouns because that's how it is in my textbook... 

if you refer to my post on the previous page, do "mamma" and "papà" need articles, as I guess they are technically "modified" somehow? I've been taught that they do...just curious about other opinions.


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## Manuela

one of my houses--article (possession)
a house of mine--pronoun (because mine is referred to the house)

hope that helps the discussion


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## Manuela

We have previously discussed the mamma- papa` topic:

you can use them with or without articles, because it's an endearing noun

mio papa`--il mio papa`
mia mamma--la mia mamma
(not for madre or padre however)
just like you would say: la mia nonnina but *not *la mia nonna
for the other next of kin in the singular only--do not use an article

mio zio
mio cugino etc.

P.S. That doesn't mean this people are not endearing to you!!! LOL


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## miri

DDT said:
			
		

> But my doubt is:
> when referred to a noun, as in the example you quoted ("mia mamma"), that's considered an adjective, not a pronoun (in Italian, I mean)
> 
> DDT


 
Hi DDT!
Quoting from The Heinemann English Grammar:
*we use a possessive adjective before a noun to say who the noun belongs to:*
*I can't find my keys.*
*We use a possessive pronoun without a noun, when the noun is understood:*
*"Is this Peter's book?" "No, it's mine." (=my book)*
*I've got my coat, but Maria can't find hers. (= her coat)*

It's the same in Italian, when we want to avoid repetition, we use a possessive pronoun, but, as it has been pointed out, possessive pronouns do not differ from possessive adjectives as in English.
When the possessive qualifies a noun, it is an adjective, so in "mia mamma", "mia" is an adjective.
I am not sure if I answered the question.
There would be much more to say about the use of articles with possessive adjectives and pronouns. In a hurry now!


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## Silvia

Yes, miri, you did, there was a real confusion in here! Now it's all cleared up


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## miri

Hello!
The difference between possessive adjectives and pronouns seems to have been cleared up. Now I will try and tackle the doubts about the use of articles.

POSSESSIVE *ADJECTIVES* AND ARTICLES

General rule: always use articles before possessive adjectives BUT
*omit* the article in *exclamations *such as "Amore mio!" or "Signori miei!".

FAMILY MEMBERS

*Omit *the article before the following family members:*padre,madre, figlio, figlia,marito, moglie. *The omission is optional with all the other family members, therefore you can say both "mia nonna" and "la mia nonna".

*Do not omit *the article:
1) before *plural family names:* i suoi *fratelli,* le tue *sorelle*
2) before *modified* family names: il mio *fratellino*
3) before endearing forms: la mia *mamma,* il suo *papà,* il nostro *babbo*
4) before family names qualified by another adjective: il mio *caro* fratello
5) before family names followed by the genitive case: il mio cugino *di Napoli*

POSSESSIVE *PRONOUNS* AND ARTICLES
They are always used with 1) a definite article or 2) a preposition combined with a definite article
1) Giulia ha perso il suo libro e *il mio.*
2) Io gli parlavo dei miei problemi e lui pensava *ai suoi.*

I have investigated about cases such as "Dammelo! *E' mio*!" or "Di chi è?" "*E'* *nostro*." which do not seem to conform to the rule, but I have been told that these are not considered as pronouns but as substantivized  pronouns (i.e. pronouns used as nouns).

All this sounds so difficult and boring  but I hope it can be helpful.


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## monkey

Thanks, miri...that was very helpful! Not boring or confusing at all!


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## Manuela

Miri

I really liked your explaination..but I'm just puzzled about one thing..I've never used "la mia nonna"
to me sounds wrong (just my opinion):
"mia nonna si chiama Ada" 
" La mia nonna si chiama Ada" 
" vado da mia nonna" 
" vado dalla mia nonna" 
they sound a little funny, but it could be just me...


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## miri

Manuela said:
			
		

> Miri
> 
> I really liked your explaination..but I'm just puzzled about one thing..I've never used "la mia nonna"
> to me sounds wrong (just my opinion):
> "mia nonna si chiama Ada"
> " La mia nonna si chiama Ada"
> " vado da mia nonna"
> " vado dalla mia nonna"
> they sound a little funny, but it could be just me...


 
I agree with you, Manuela! But that's what fussy grammarians say. Anyway grammars have that both forms are correct, at least!


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## stevenvh

miri said:


> FAMILY MEMBERS
> 
> *Omit *the article before the following family members:*padre,madre, figlio, figlia,marito, moglie. *The omission is optional with all the other family members, therefore you can say both "mia nonna" and "la mia nonna".
> 
> *Do not omit *the article:
> 1) before *plural family names:* i suoi *fratelli,* le tue *sorelle*
> 2) before *modified* family names: il mio *fratellino*
> 3) before endearing forms: la mia *mamma,* il suo *papà,* il nostro *babbo*
> 4) before family names qualified by another adjective: il mio *caro* fratello
> 5) before family names followed by the genitive case: il mio cugino *di Napoli*



Thanks Miri for the clear overview.
I was wondering if the list "*padre*, *madre*, ... *moglie*" is exhaustive. Isn't the article omitted for *fratello*, *sorella *as well?
Is there a _complete _list of the family members where the article is always omitted, and one with the optional omissions?
TIA
Steven


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## BlueWolf

stevenvh said:


> Thanks Miri for the clear overview.
> I was wondering if the list "*padre*, *madre*, ... *moglie*" is exhaustive. Isn't the article omitted for *fratello*, *sorella *as well?
> Is there a _complete _list of the family members where the article is always omitted, and one with the optional omissions?
> TIA
> Steven



It's simpler to say the complete list of the family members where the article is _not_ omitted. 
It's very short: papà, mamma, nonno, nonna. They can not have the article too (and with nonno/a it is the most common, but la mia nonna _isn't _wrong).


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## Pasquale Gatto

Ciao a tutti,

My question is, are personal indirect objects also used as possessive pronouns? I cannot verify this anywhere I looked. Two recent examples of this occured in my attempt at self teaching.

(Doctor to patient) 
Le sto misurando la pressione. (I’m taking _your_ blood pressure).

(Customer to computer technician) 
Mi può accendere il computer? (Can you turn on _my_ computer?)

These example sentences were introduced in the lessons but without explanation. In my studies it often occurs that new grammar is introduced without explanation but usually a lesson or two later the rules become clear. In the cases above, I found nothing in looking ahead that explains the seemingly use of indirect objects as possessive pronouns.

Grazie,

PG


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## Paulfromitaly

I'm afraid I fail to understand what's your question..


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## stella_maris_74

Hi Pasquale,
the best advice I can give to you is not to take grammar rules that belong to the English language and apply them to Italian 
I'm saying this because your assumption is wrong: in the sentences you mentioned, the italian pronouns are not "used as possessive pronouns".
It so happens that in English you need so to speak to "tag" everything with a proper possessive pronoun (I stick _my_ hand in _m_y pocket), whereas in Italian you don't need to do so, because Italian works differently (mi metto le mani in tasca).

It's simply a different construction 

I hope this helped a bit!

Ciao,

dani


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## Pasquale Gatto

Paulfromitaly said:


> I'm afraid I fail to understand what your question..


 
Sorry about that.  Let me try again.

Yesterday I asked if "Le sto misurando la pressione." could also be stated as "Sto misurando la Sua pressione".  The answer was yes.  So my assumption is that in the first case "Le" and in the the second case "Sua" translate to the english possessive pronoun "your".

I believe that this sentence "Mi può accendere il computer?" can also be stated as "Può accendere il mio computer".  So my assumption is that in the first case "Mi" and in the the second cae "mio" translate to the english possessive pronoun "my".
 
Does this make my question easier to understand?
 
PG


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## Pasquale Gatto

stella_maris_74 said:


> Hi Pasquale,
> the best advice I can give to you is not to take grammar rules that belong to the English language and apply them to Italian
> I'm saying this because your assumption is wrong: in the sentences you mentioned, the italian pronouns are not "used as possessive pronouns".
> It so happens that in English you need so to speak to "tag" everything with a proper possessive pronoun (I stick _my_ hand in _m_y pocket), whereas in Italian you don't need to do so, because Italian works differently (mi metto le mani in tasca).
> 
> It's simply a different construction
> 
> I hope this helped a bit!
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> dani


 
Grazie dani,

I responded to PaulfromItaly before I saw your reply.

PG


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## Pasquale Gatto

stella_maris_74 said:


> Hi Pasquale,
> the best advice I can give to you is not to take grammar rules that belong to the English language and apply them to Italian
> I'm saying this because your assumption is wrong: in the sentences you mentioned, the italian pronouns are not "used as possessive pronouns".
> It so happens that in English you need so to speak to "tag" everything with a proper possessive pronoun (I stick _my_ hand in _m_y pocket), whereas in Italian you don't need to do so, because Italian works differently (mi metto le mani in tasca).
> 
> It's simply a different construction
> 
> I hope this helped a bit!
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> dani


 
Dani,

I do understand that in Italian the possessive pronouns are not always used or needed.  The example that you provided makes perfect sense to me ("Mi metto le mani in tasca.") because the reflexive pronoum and the verb are first person singular.

The examples I provided are confusing to me.  

In this example "Le sto misurando la pressione." is "Le" needed?  
In this example "Mi può accendere il computer?' is "Mi" needed?
 
If yes, and if they don't indicate "your" or my" respectively then I'm having a hard time understanding why they are needed.  For example, could a doctor say to a patient "Sto misurando la pressione."?  or could I say to a computer technician "Può accendere il computer?" Not using "Le" or "Mi" actually makes more sense to me.  Sorry that "non capisco".
 
PG


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## mrg

Ciao PG, maybe this will help:

While le and mi are not possessive pronouns, they do indicate possession. Maybe a more literal translation will help you with the grammar:

_Le_ sto misurando la pressione.
I am measuring the blood pressure _for you_.

_Mi_ può accendere il computer?
Can you turn on the computer _for me_?

Of course we would never say it this way in English. It's just one of those times when the joy of learning Italian will be when you realize you have assimilated an idiom that seemed unnatural at first.  The verbs mancare and piacere use this construction quite a lot.  Maybe if you haven't come to those yet this all will become clearer when you do.


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## Pasquale Gatto

mrg,

Grazie!.  In my attempt to better understand it did cross my mind to think of this as "for you' and "for me".  My method to learning this is probably a lot different than usual.  I try to think in terms iof the literal translation (no matter how unusal it may turn out) .  So I'll try to remember these types of sentences as "For you I am measuring the (blood) Pressure".  "For me, can you turn on the computer?".

Grazie mille!

PG



mrg said:


> Ciao PG, maybe this will help:
> 
> While le and mi are not possessive pronouns, they do indicate possession. Maybe a more literal translation will help you with the grammar:
> 
> _Le_ sto misurando la pressione.
> I am measuring the blood pressure _for you_.
> 
> _Mi_ può accendere il computer?
> Can you turn on the computer _for me_?
> 
> Of course we would never say it this way in English. It's just one of those times when the joy of learning Italian will be when you realize you have assimilated an idiom that seemed unnatural at first. The verbs mancare and piacere use this construction quite a lot. Maybe if you haven't come to those yet this all will become clearer when you do.


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## mrg

You're very welcome.  If I could offer one more bit of advice:  since you understand the construction, you might try using it in Italian rather than thinking about translating back and forth.  Best of luck!


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## virgilio

Pasquale Gatto,
                     The answers to your two questions are two slightly different answers.
(1) The languages derived from Latin (French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian are the main ones) tend not to use possessive adjectives in certain contexts, particularly in connection with parts of the body or anything intimately connected with the person, such as clothing. Instead those languages tend to use the dative case of the pronoun signifying the 'possessor', while the noun 'possessed' is qualified by the definite article:
e.g.
mi duole la testa - literally "the head is hurting for me"  = my head is hurting.

La donna si spalmava il viso con crema - the woman was smearing for herself the face with cream = the woman was smearing her face with cream.
Blood pressure is plainly a part of the body, so to speak.
Hence:
Le sto misurando la pressione - I am measuring for you the pressure.

If you studied Latin at school, you won't need me to tell you what a dative case is. But, in case you were not so fortunate, the "dative" case (from the verb "dare" - the 'giving' case) is the form of a substantive or pronoun which indicates the person for whose advantage or disadvantage the action of the verb takes place.
e.g.
Mio padre (nominative) gli (dative) da (verb) un libro (accusative)
My father gives a book - and "gli" (him) indicates the person for whose advantage or disadvantage that action happens - if it's a good book, advantage; if it's rotten, disadvantage!
In other words a substantive or pronoun is dative if and only if *unaccompanied by either of the prepositions "to" or "for"* it implies one or other of those absent prepositions:
e.g.
Call *me* a taxi!   The pronoun "me" is here a dative for it implies the preposition "for" (Call for me a taxi) *without* being assisted by that preposition.

If we inadvertently took "me" to be an accusative, we would make the comical reply: "Very good, sir! You're a taxi!"

(2) Mi può accendere il computer. 
 Here the dative "mi" simply implies "for me", without necessarily introducing any idea of possession.
"Can you turn on the computer for me?" or, if you like, "Can you turn on my computer for me?" or  (closer to the italian) "Can you turn me on the computer?" is even possible in English, isn't it?
Hope this helps.
Best wishes from one autodidact to another. It's the only real way to learn!

Virgilio


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## Pasquale Gatto

Virgilio,

Very interesting. I learned a lot. Unfortunately I didn't study Latin so this was very helpful.

Molte grazie!

PG



virgilio said:


> Pasquale Gatto,
> The answers to your two questions are two slightly different answers.
> (1) The languages derived from Latin (French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian are the main ones) tend not to use possessive adjectives in certain contexts, particularly in connection with parts of the body or anything intimately connected with the person, such as clothing. Instead those languages tend to use the dative case of the pronoun signifying the 'possessor', while the noun 'possessed' is qualified by the definite article:
> e.g.
> mi duole la testa - literally "the head is hurting for me" = my head is hurting.
> 
> La donna si spalmava il viso con crema - the woman was smearing for herself the face with cream = the woman was smearing her face with cream.
> Blood pressure is plainly a part of the body, so to speak.
> Hence:
> Le sto misurando la pressione - I am measuring for you the pressure.
> 
> If you studied Latin at school, you won't need me to tell you what a dative case is. But, in case you were not so fortunate, the "dative" case (from the verb "dare" - the 'giving' case) is the form of a substantive or pronoun which indicates the person for whose advantage or disadvantage the action of the verb takes place.
> e.g.
> Mio padre (nominative) gli (dative) da (verb) un libro (accusative)
> My father gives a book - and "gli" (him) indicates the person for whose advantage or disadvantage that action happens - if it's a good book, advantage; if it's rotten, disadvantage!
> In other words a substantive or pronoun is dative if and only if *unaccompanied by either of the prepositions "to" or "for"* it implies one or other of those absent prepositions:
> e.g.
> Call *me* a taxi! The pronoun "me" is here a dative for it implies the preposition "for" (Call for me a taxi) *without* being assisted by that preposition.
> 
> If we inadvertently took "me" to be an accusative, we would make the comical reply: "Very good, sir! You're a taxi!"
> 
> (2) Mi può accendere il computer.
> Here the dative "mi" simply implies "for me", without necessarily introducing any idea of possession.
> "Can you turn on the computer for me?" or, if you like, "Can you turn on my computer for me?" or (closer to the italian) "Can you turn me on the computer?" is even possible in English, isn't it?
> Hope this helps.
> Best wishes from one autodidact to another. It's the only real way to learn!
> 
> Virgilio


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