# FR: pouvoir - imparfait / passé composé



## femmedevinophile

*Moderator note*: multiple threads merged to create this one
See also FR: pouvoir, vouloir, savoir, penser - past tenses


My French grammar review book says that the meaning of _pouvoir_ is different in the imparfait and the passé composé (at least in the negative).

The examples given are: 

_Il ne pouvait pas sortir._ He couldn't go out. (It was hard for him.)

_Il n'a pas pu sortir. _He couldn't go out (and he didn't).

I'm having trouble seeing the distinction here.  Does the use of the imparfait imply that he _did_ go out (despite the difficulty)?


----------



## Maître Capello

femmedevinophile said:


> Does the use of the imparfait imply that he _did_ go out (despite the difficulty)?



No, it is just the same as _He couldn't go out_: you can't tell whether or not he eventually went out.

Anyway, let's say he didn't. Then the imparfait just describes the situation in the past whereas the passé composé describes the present situation, i.e., it rather describes the result…

Possible translations:
_Il ne pouvait pas sortir. →_ He couldn't go out. He was not able to go out.
_Il n'a pas pu sortir. _→ He hasn't been able to go out.


----------



## Areyou Crazy

so maitre for the imparfait

would you use
 he wasn't able to go out (at that time)

rather ,would that be appropriate as a translation..?

I thought that

the passé composé could be translated as...

He didn't manage to go out

I'm not sure if it's the same in French for permission and ability
In English 'couldn't do something' does not tell us if the intended result occured whereas 'was able to' is more precise and tells us that the person had the chance to do something and actually did it


----------



## Maître Capello

Areyou Crazy said:


> I'm not sure if it's the same in French for permission and ability


Yes, _pouvoir_ can be used for either permission or ability. So, depending on the context, it may not be appropriate to translate it with _be able to_.

_Il n'a pas pu sortir parce que sa mère l'a puni._ → He couldn't/was not allowed to go out…

_Il n'a pas pu sortir parce qu'on l'a enfermé. _ → He couldn't/was not able to go out…


----------



## jemappellekelly

Bonjour!

Je vais faire une activité avec ma classe de français la semaine prochaine où ils décident si les verbes dans des comptines anglaises devraient être au passé composé ou à l'imparfait. Je vais tout simplement leur donner les mots en anglais avec les verbes souligner et ils vont m'expliquer pourquoi on choisirait le passé composé ou l'imparfait si on traduiait le texte.

Le seul problème est que je ne suis pas tout à fait à l'aise avec le verbe "pouvoir". Je ne sais jamais si on devrait utiliser le passé composé ou l'imparfait... est-ce que quelqu'un peut m'expliquer la différence? Voici la comptine qui me pose des problèmes. J'ai tendance de choisir l'imparfait. Est-ce que c'est correct ici?

Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater
Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater 
Had a wife and couldn’t keep her;
He put her in a pumpkin shell
 And there he kept her very well.


----------



## jann

I would say that your hunch is correct. I've merged your question into a similar existing thread. 

[...]

Jann
member and moderator
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1069480


----------



## itka

I don't agree with you, jemappellekelly and jann... If I understand well your little song, I'll translate it so :

Peter, Peter, Pumpkin Eater 
Had a wife and couldn’t keep her  = _(Il) avait une femme et ne savait (où) l'abriter_
[...]

Dans ce genre de comptine, on utiliserait le passé simple, mais à défaut, le passé composé convient dans les deux derniers vers.


----------



## jann

Hello itka, 

I'm terribly confused.  

Why is it that you disagree?  You yourself translated "couldn't keep her" with the imperfect... using _savoir_ instead of _pouvoir_, it's true... but very much in _imparfait, _not _passé composé _or_ passé simple_.


----------



## itka

All I meant is that imperfect fit well for the two first verbs : _had_ and _couldn't keep_, but not for the others...

[...]


----------



## jann

Thanks Itka, now I understand!  [...]


----------



## SilverPetal

Hello,
I learned today in class that when pouvoir is in the passé composé tense, its meaning is different from when it's imperfect. This is the explanation from my sheet:

Il ne *pouvait *pas sortir. => He *couldn't *go out. (It was hard for him.)
Il *n'a pas pu *sortir. => He couldn't (and didn't) go out.

I still don't get the difference though! Does the first one mean that he did go out but it was just hard for him? Doesn't the first one also mean that he didn't go out, just like the second one which says in brackets 'and didn't'?

One of the questions was to translate this:
"Did they want to spend the day in town? Yes, but they couldn't." 
For the second part, I wrote pouvoir in imperfect form, but it was supposed to be passé composé. Can someone please explain this for me? Another one was "I was able to work yesterday, but I refused to leave the house." I wrote passé composé for the first part, but it was supposed to be imperfect!

Please, any help would be appreciated


----------



## geostan

SilverPetal said:


> Does the first one mean that he did go out but it was just hard for him? Doesn't the first one also mean that he didn't go out, just like the second one which says in brackets 'and didn't'?


No. And I don't understand why your instructor suggested (it was hard for him.)

Imperfect - At the moment referred to,_ he couldn't go out_. But the action is incomplete. Something might occur to change that. 

Passé composé _- _it is a past action; he couldn't change his mind, because the action is already over and done with. The speaker will have moved on to another action.

You should always have a context, because it is difficult to analyse isolated sentences.

Here is an example for the imperfect.

_Je lui ai dit qu'il ne pouvait pas sortir._  At the moment I spoke to him, he could not go out, but that does not mean he did not go out. He might have gone out despite what I said to him or I might have changed my mind.

An example for the passé composé might be_:
_
_ Je l'ai invité à sortir, mais il n'a pas pu (le faire), et j'ai dû rentrer tout seul._

I hope this helps.


----------



## SilverPetal

Yes, it does help, but I think I still need clarification, since I got both of my questions wrong.
I had to translate this:
"Did they want to spend the day in town? Yes, but they couldn't." 
For the second part, I wrote pouvoir in imperfect form, but it was supposed to be passé composé. The other one was "I was able to work yesterday, but I refused to leave the house." I wrote passé composé for the first part, but it was supposed to be imperfect!


----------



## Gargamelle

Il ne *pouvait* pas  sortir: conditions made it difficult for him to go out, and he didn't even try.

Il *n'a pas pu* sortir: he tried to go out and wasn't able to.

Je *pouvais* travailler:  conditions were such that it was possible to work (the weather was good, you weren't sick or injured, it wasn't a holiday, etc, etc...), but you refused to leave the house.

Je * j'ai pu* travailler: conditions were such that it was possible to work, and you actually _did_ work.

Hope this helps.  The whole passé composé/imparfait thing with pouvoir (and devoir, vouloir, and savoir) can be confusing!

Bonne chance!

Gargamelle


----------



## geostan

SilverPetal said:


> Yes, it does help, but I think I still need clarification, since I got both of my questions wrong.
> I had to translate this:
> "Did they want to spend the day in town? Yes, but they couldn't."
> For the second part, I wrote pouvoir in imperfect form, but it was supposed to be passé composé. The other one was "I was able to work yesterday, but I refused to leave the house." I wrote passé composé for the first part, but it was supposed to be imperfect!



For you first sentence, it fits in with the description in your notes.

Did they want to spend....town?  Yes, but they couldn't (and didn't). So use the passé composé.

For your second sentence, if you said _j'ai pu travailler hier_, it would mean that _you were able to *and did*_. But that is contradicted by the rest of the sentence which said that you didn't leave the house. So the imperfect should be used.


----------



## Michel09

I know that you got an answer but I just googled it to see if I could find a webpage for you, and this is one.  

The main difference between the two is the accuracy of the action and expression.  Remember that.  But once you understand this, it becomes easier to tell when to use the two.

http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa060799.htm


----------



## SilverPetal

For the first sentence though, wouldn't imperfect also work?
Thanks


----------



## geostan

It could if you had the right context.

If the meaning is NOT They couldn't (and didn't). Or you don't know whether they eventually did or did not.

That's it for tonight! Best of luck with your studies!


----------



## Fred_C

SilverPetal said:


> I had to translate this:
> "Did they want to spend the day in town? Yes, but they couldn't."
> For the second part, I wrote pouvoir in imperfect form, but it was supposed to be passé composé. The other one was "I was able to work yesterday, but I refused to leave the house." I wrote passé composé for the first part, but it was supposed to be imperfect!


 
Hi,
The rule given by your teacher sounds wrong and very offputting to me.
In your examples, I think it is much easier to follow the "longer action-shorter action" rule.
When you have two actions, one being shorter than the other one, put the shorter action in the compound past tense, and the longer one in the imperfect tense.

In your first sentence, the action of realising that it is impossible to spend the day in town is certainly shorter than the fact of wanting to go out.

In your second sentence, the action of refusing to leave the house is shorter than the fact of being able to work.


The reason why your teacher told you that "pouvoir" in the imperfect has a meaning of "having difficulties" is perhaps because using "pouvoir" in the imperfect tense is often done in order to say for example "I tried, but I could not" ("j'ai essayé, mais je ne pouvais pas"), where your tries are shorter actions that the general state of your incapacity.
On the other hand, using "pouvoir" in the compound past tense is often done in order to express the short action of "realising that you cannot", which is shorter than "wanting to" for example ("Je voulais, mais je n'ai pas pu").

Your teacher's rules seem to be rules of a thumb, therefore, they are not always very effective.


----------



## geostan

Fred_C said:


> "j'ai essayé, mais je ne pouvais pas"


Fred, I would probably have put both verbs in the passé composé. I suppose the imperfect is possible if the verb pouvoir by the end of the sentence is open-ended, but my thought is that the sentence likely means: _I made an attempt but was unsuccessful._


----------



## Fred_C

Geostan,
yes you are right, the sentence is better with twice the compound past tense if you mean for example "J'ai essayé de me lever, mais je n'ai pas pu me lever" (Two successive events : Your try to stand up, then your realising that you could not.

But you could say for example "J'ai essayé de préparer le petit déjeuner, mais je ne pouvais même pas me lever (parce que j'étais malade)"
Here the incapacity is clearly a context, that is longer than your try to prepare breakfast.


----------



## odonut-yj

I just learnt this in my french lessons too..
My teacher explained it as this: 

passe compose--> could, and did. 
(if in negative form then it means could not but did, as in your example, "Did they want to spend the day in town? Yes, but they couldn't." where the did spend the day in town but originally couldn't.)

imparfait--> could, but did not, as in your example, "I was able to work yesterday, but I refused to leave the house." where you could work but did not do so. 
(if in negative form then it means could not and did not)

this is the same for vouloir, devoir and falloir. 
i.e., passe compose of volour is wanted to and did, if in negative means you didn't want to, but you did. 
imparfait is wanted to but did not, and if in negative means you didn't want to and you didn't. 
same case for devoir and falloir. basically is about whether you did it or not. 

hope i helped, i think this explanation is quite clear but i'm not absolutely certain its correct for all cases


----------



## Trendywendy_41

I'm also struggling with Imperfect tense and Pouvoir.

The sentence "Je n'ai pas pu me lever ce matin." suggests that I couldn't get up this morning - and didn't. To the listener, I'm still in bed.

The sentence "Je ne pouvais pas me lever." needs some kind of reason or other event such as....quand ma fille est entrée dans ma chambre et elle m'a tiré du lit!"
OR "Je ne pouvais pas me lever parce-que j'étais si comfortable." 
Am I on the right track? I'm driving my French teacher mad!!


----------



## Rallino

Yes that's right. You're having trouble, probably because in English you don't use the past continuous of the modal "can".
You have no problem distinguishing the sentences:
_Hier j'ai regardé la télé_ vs_ Hier je regardais la télé._

Because in English these sentences equate to: Yesterday I didn't watch TV and I wasn't watching TV, respectively.

But since there is no saying for the modal verb *can*: "This morning I was canning..", It causes trouble. 

So if it's going to help you, maybe in your head you can equate the constructions: _je n'ai pas pu_ with _I couldn't_, and _je ne pouvais pas_ with _I wasn't able to._

Je n'ai pas pu me lever ce matin.
_This morning, I couldn't get up._ 

Je ne pouvais pas me lever parce que j'étais très comfortable.
_I wasn't able to get up because I was very comfortable.

_I admit it sounds weird, but I thought it could give you a hint, in the future, for deciding whether you've used it correctly or not =)


----------



## lebanna

Fred_C said:


> In your examples, I think it is much easier to follow the "longer action-shorter action" rule.
> When you have two actions, one being shorter than the other one, put the shorter action in the compound past tense, and the longer one in the imperfect tense.
> 
> In your first sentence, the action of realising that it is impossible to spend the day in town is certainly shorter than the fact of wanting to go out.
> 
> In your second sentence, the action of refusing to leave the house is shorter than the fact of being able to work.


I like this 'shorter' and 'longer' sense (of action) to help understand whether to use the passé composé or the imparfai verb. Mind you, that's as well as using several other tools. But, eventually with practice, understanding comes.
It's a simple tool to use.  Thanks Fred


----------



## Trendywendy_41

> I like this 'shorter' and 'longer' sense (of action) to help understand whether to use the passé composé or the imparfait verb. Mind you, that's as well as using several other tools.


 
Am I right in thinking that another tool or rule maybe is that the imparfait needs another idea, event, reason so as not to leave it open.

Like my sentence "Je ne pouvais pas me lever." would require from the listener a "Yes? What? Then what happened?"

Having said that, if the sentence read "Je n'ai pas pu me lever." Wouldn't the listener still want to enquire the same? (At least a "Pourquoi pas?")

What do you think?


----------



## alevtinka

What is the difference between the following two sentences ? I undertand both as "I could / was able to tell a lie".

J'ai pu mentir.

Je pouvais mentir.


----------



## Glasguensis

This is simply the difference between the perfect and the imperfect. You use the perfect for an action which is complete, and you use the imperfect for an action which is incomplete or habitual.
Je pouvais mentir quand j'étais jeune (habitual action)
Je pouvais mentir jusqu'au moment où il m'a regardé dans les yeux (interrupted action)


----------



## Maître Capello

Glasguensis said:


> Je pouvais mentir quand j'étais jeune (habitual action)
> Je pouvais mentir jusqu'au moment où il m'a regardé dans les yeux (interrupted action)


As a matter of fact, in your second example there is no on-going action that gets interrupted. We would indeed use the passé composé:

_J'*ai pu* mentir jusqu'au moment où il m'a regardé dans les yeux._


----------



## Haghenschlapfter

Gargamelle said:


> Il ne *pouvait* pas sortir: conditions made it difficult for him to go out, and he didn't even try.
> 
> Il *n'a pas pu* sortir: he tried to go out and wasn't able to.


 
This is what I was taught and the same went for Spanish as well. Can anyone confirm that for me (that is, for French)?  It FEELS right to me.


----------



## Maître Capello

That's correct except for the "he didn't even try" bit:


> Il ne *pouvait* pas sortir: conditions made it difficult (or even impossible) for him to go out, and he didn't even try.
> 
> Il *n'a pas pu* sortir: he tried to go out and wasn't able to.


----------



## MiddStu

I have two questions about the use of the passé composé and the imparfait that have haunted me for sometime. 

When students in America are taught the difference between the two tenses they are most often told that verbs such as penser, croire, vouloir (les verbes d'état) are mostly to be conjugated in the imparfait when talking about the past.  However in certain paragraphs I feel like I could make an argument for the passé composé.  I am not a native speaker, so I know that I can't count on what sounds right to me.  Here are two examples of the type of situation that confuses me:

Example #1:
[...]

Example #2:
Nous sommes restés ensemble toute la soirée.  A minuit il m'a raccompagnée chez moi et nous avons échangé nos numéros de téléphone.  Cette nuit là, je me sentais si amoureuse que je (n'ai pas pu / ne pouvais) pas dormir.

I'm still not sure what the answer should be in either case and I would love an explanation if possible, especially if it's the passé composé.

Merci!


----------



## Gérard Napalinex

Hi MiddStu, and welcome on the WR forums 

We have many grammar-skilled people in the forums, of which I am none, so let me give you my gut feelings.

[...]

About your #2, I would opt for passé composé - with guts only  But both are perfectly all right and equally common.

Note: cette nuit-là. Thank you for leaving me with space for hairsplitting


----------



## Interrif

Pourvoir

Imperfect - could, was able to, whether it was done or not

Passé Composé - could, was able to, and did (the action was certain to be made)

This mean that if you use the imperfect, you weren't able to sleep, but you might have been able to sleep later on.
If you use the passé composé, you weren't able to sleep, and you didn't sleep at all.

I'm not a native, but this is what the lesson below states. The usage in the passé composé is apparently not used as often as it is in the imperfect.

http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/advpasttenses.htm


----------



## Maître Capello

In your example, MiddStu, the appropriate tense depends on the context, especially on the sentence that comes next. If the next sentence talks about a later time, e.g., the next morning, only the passé composé really makes sense, but if it describes some state, circumstance or event that occurred that very night, the imparfait would be appropriate.

_Cette nuit-là, je me sentais si amoureuse que je n'*ai* pas *pu* dormir. Le lendemain, je n'ai pas pu m'empêcher de le rappeler le matin même._
_ 
Cette nuit-là, je me sentais si amoureuse que je ne *pouvais* pas dormir. Je comptais les moutons, mais en vain. J'étais trop excitée pour trouver le sommeil. À trois heures, je suis allée boire un verre d'eau._

P.S.: By the way, welcome to the forums!


----------



## nouvelleprof

Bonjour! I am confused by the use of pouvoir as well. Here are the following fill-in-the-blank sentences : "Un orage a éclaté....le vent a déchiré notre voile. Nous ___________(ne plus pouvoir) diriger le bateau et nous ___________ (avoir) très peur." My instinct is to always write "nous avions très peur" and therefore put pouvoir à l'imparfait to match the tense, but reading the above statements about "he couldn't go out, and he didn't" are making this unclear for me. Appreciate your corrections!


----------



## olivier68

Passé composé : action courte, rapide, bien située dans le temps. Action achevée.
Imparfait : action dans le passé, mais qui a une certaine durée ou une notion de répétition. Action pas nécessairement achevée.


----------



## JClaudeK

nouvelleprof said:


> My instinct is to [...]  write "nous avions très peur" and therefore put pouvoir à l'imparfait to match the tense


----------

