# Spanish book / book of Spanish



## nueche

Hola a todos. ¿Alguien podría explicarme claramente cómo usar correctamente el equivalente a ''de'' en inglés? La posesión (Jim's book) y el origen (Jim is from London) la entiendo, pero con el resto tengo dudas, sobre si poner ''of'' o cambiar el orden de las palabras. 

A Spanish book?/ A book of Spanish?
A lemons box?/ A box of lemons?

Gracias!!


----------



## obz

"Lemon Box" puede existir, y me imagino que existen donde se cultivan limones...

No hay regla fija que se siga,...tendrás que memorizarlas e  ir aprendiéndolas poco a poco. Muchas se hacen por costumbre.
Pero, como guía, las dos tienen que ser sustantivos para realizarse la palabra "compueta". En inglés "Spanish" es adjetivo, y "Spaniard" es sustantivo, asi que, tu ejemplo de "book of Spanish" no tiene sentido... palabras compuestas, o con "of" no suenan bien para nada con ajectivos. 

Aqui pongo ejemplos que no tienen normas para seguir, como ejemplos inventados. Los que si siguen normas, solo hay que aprenderlos.

Con adjetivo : A red box  / A box of red 
Con sustantivo : A popcorn bag (supongo? pero.. puf) / A bag of popcorn 

Con adjetivo : A book of wet   / A wet book 
Con sustantivo : A list of ingredients  / An ingredients list (supongo de nuevo pero no me gusta)


----------



## nueche

Muchas gracias!!


----------



## VictorBsAs

Este es un tema que siempre me interesó. Si hubiera alguna regla, me gustaría conocerla. Quisiera agregar algo. Cuando se unen dos sustantivos como 'door bell', el primer sustantivo oficia de adjetivo y como los adjetivos en inglés no tienen plural, debe ir siempre en singular. Por eso, cuando el plural del modificador es importante para el significado, yo prefiero usar la forma con 'of' como en 'list of ingredients'. Por favor corríjanme si estoy equivocado.


----------



## kanttwo

Yo tambien estoy interesado en saberlo, posteo para no perderlo de vista.


----------



## obz

Por cierto, _doorbell_ es palabra compuesta. Así se unen en una sola palabra.

Palabras mas usadas tienden a unirse en una sola palabra, debido a uso y conveniencia. 
Tal cual _"laptop", "backpack" "headlights" "desktop" _etc, las menos usadas, supongo que nadie se habrá tomado la molestia de actualizar el diccionario por su desuso como... "exhaust pipe" "monitor cable" o cualquiers otras palabras que no se usen tanto como las que si son compuestas.


----------



## elianecanspeak

*Se necesita un sustantivo* para usar la plantilla  "un ---- of -----":

*No* decimos "a book of Spanish".  "Spanish" es adjetivo; no hay sustantivo.
Decimos "a book of *Spanish* *prose*". "Spanish" es adjetivo; "prose" es sustantivo.
Decimos "a book of  *prose*". No hay adjetivo; "prose" es sustantivo.


----------



## Frank Furt

Well, from my point of view, you can say "a book of Spanish" if you are talking about a book which teaches you Spanish.

A "Spanish book" is any book published in Spain. A "bookf of Spanish" is a book about the language, and it could have been published anywhere. So you could even say: "a French book of Spanish", if it is a book on Spanish language, published in France.


----------



## kanttwo

Frank Furt said:


> Well, from my point of view, you can say "a book of Spanish" if you are talking about a book which teaches you Spanish.
> 
> A "Spanish book" is any book published in Spain. A "bookf of Spanish" is a book about the language, and it could have been published anywhere. So you could even say: "a French book of Spanish", if it is a book on Spanish language, published in France.


 
Yes,I think so. I agree.
If we think in spanish,it makes sense.

Let´s wait for a native speaker´s opinion about this.


----------



## AnitaBig

Frank Furt said:


> Well, from my point of view, you can say "a book of Spanish" if you are talking about a book which teaches you Spanish.
> 
> A "Spanish book" is any book published in Spain. A "bookf of Spanish" is a book about the language, and it could have been published anywhere. So you could even say: "a French book of Spanish", if it is a book on Spanish language, published in France.



Sí, porque "Spanish" en este caso, al referirse al idioma, no es un adjetivo sino un sustantivo. Así que, si he comprendido bien, "book of Spanish" estaría siguiendo la regla que mencionaban obz y elianecanspeak. 
Saludos!


----------



## nueche

Muchas gracias por vuestros comentarios, me han aclarado mucho. Me gustaria que un nativo afirmara que es correcto ''a book of spanish'', por aquello de que efectivamente, ahi no actua como adjetivo, y de otra forma no podriamos distinguir entre ''un libro español'' o un ''libro de español'', que claramente no es lo mismo.


----------



## stallion

Yo diría "a book on (of) Spanish grammar or literature" o lo que sea"

Book of Spanish no tiene mucho sentido...
S


----------



## AnitaBig

stallion said:


> Yo diría "a book on (of) Spanish grammar or literature" o lo que sea"
> 
> Book of Spanish no tiene mucho sentido...
> S



¿Podrías explicar por qué no tiene sentido "book of Spanish"? ¿No se consideraría sustantivo en este caso? En el ejemplo que das, agregas "grammar" o "literature", que son sustantivos, por lo que "Spanish" sigue funcionando como adjetivo. 
Gracias!


----------



## elianecanspeak

Frank Furt said:


> Well, from my point of view, you can say "a book of Spanish" if you are talking about a book which teaches you Spanish.
> 
> A "Spanish book" is any book published in Spain. A "book of Spanish" is a book about the language, and it could have been published anywhere. So you could even say: "a French book of Spanish", if it is a book on Spanish language, published in France.



Based on my experience as a native speaker (who has done graduate work in English linguistics and taught English) I do not agree.  Those supporting this construction are not native speakers, and it is an easy mistake to make. I have never heard a native speaker say "a book of Spanish".  This is not a matter of dialect as far as I know.

Could we hear from more native English speakers?


----------



## AnitaBig

elianecanspeak said:


> Based on my experience as a native speaker (who has done graduate work in English linguistics and taught English) I do not agree.  Those supporting this construction are not native speakers, and it is an easy mistake to make. I have never heard a native speaker say "a book of Spanish".  This is not a matter of dialect as far as I know.
> 
> Could we hear from more native English speakers?



Justamente porque soy hispanohablante, y me es difícil apartarme de la lógica de mi idioma, me pregunto cuál es la razón por la que ustedes (native speakers) no aceptan esta construcción. Por mi parte, acepto que sea como dices tú, pero me gustaría saber específicamente, si es que puedes explicarme, cuál es el motivo por el que no la consideran válida.
Gracias!


----------



## elianecanspeak

AnitaBig said:


> Justamente porque soy hispanohablante, y me es difícil apartarme de la lógica de mi idioma, me pregunto cuál es la razón por la que ustedes (native speakers) no aceptan esta construcción. Por mi parte, acepto que sea como dices tú, pero me gustaría saber específicamente, si es que puedes explicarme, cuál es el motivo por el que no la consideran válida.
> Gracias!



No conosco una regla precisa, pero voy a buscarla. Te contestaré mas tarde hoy si no hay una buena respuesta.


----------



## stallion

Un "book of Spanish" simplemente no nos dice nada. En inglés se debe decir sobre que trata. 
I agree that it is not a matter of dialect.


----------



## Spug

elianecanspeak said:


> Could we hear from more native English speakers?



Sí, como no. 

I agree with elianecanspeak. We would never say "my book of Spanish."

Why? Well, I can't give you a discrete grammatical rule. It's probably just a usage convention. Whenever we speak about textbooks in the US, it's always "_____ book." For example: Math book, Spanish book, English, book, Social Studies book, etc.

Espero que les sirva de algo... y saludos.


----------



## AnitaBig

elianecanspeak said:


> No conosco una regla precisa, pero voy a buscarla. Te contestaré mas tarde hoy si no hay una buena respuesta.



Muchas gracias! Espero tu respuesta.


----------



## ampurdan

Supongo que si quiseran decir un libro impreso en España, dirían "A book printed in Spain". Después de todo, tampoco es muy común hablar de "_libros_ españoles".


----------



## stallion

Sí, se diría "a book printed in Spain"


----------



## AnitaBig

stallion said:


> En inglés se debe decir sobre que trata.



En castellano también. Sólo que lo que intentábamos decir es que el libro se trata del español como idioma (sustantivo), y no de algo español (adjetivo). 



Spug said:


> Sí, como no.
> 
> I agree with elianecanspeak. We would never say "my book of Spanish."
> 
> Why? Well, I can't give you a discrete grammatical rule. It's probably just a usage convention. Whenever we speak about textbooks in the US, it's always "_____ book." For example: Math book, Spanish book, English, book, Social Studies book, etc.
> 
> Espero que les sirva de algo... y saludos.



Sí, creo que sirve de mucho tu aporte. ¿Sería correcto decir que en todos esos casos, los sustantivos (Math, etc.) están cumpliendo una especie de función adjetiva?



ampurdan said:


> Supongo que si quiseran decir un libro impreso en España, dirían "A book printed in Spain". Después de todo, tampoco es muy común hablar de "libros españoles".



Gracias! Diste en el clavo (o en uno de ellos, al menos)


----------



## ampurdan

Now, the problem is that "a Spanish book" usually means "a book in Spanish", right?


----------



## Spug

Hola AnitaBig,



AnitaBig said:


> ¿Sería correcto decir que en todos esos casos, los sustantivos (Math, etc.) están cumpliendo una especie de función adjetiva?



Bueno, efectivamente, supongo que sí... también se sobreentiende que el contenido del libro trata del adjetivo... no sé si me explico... o sea, cuando decimos "spanish book", todos sabemos que se trata de un libro de texto para enseñar el español. Y así por el estilo con las otras materias (geografía, matemáticas, lo que sea...).

ampurdan...

"Now, the problem is that "a Spanish book" usually means "a book in Spanish", right?"

Bueno, a mi modo de ver, no necesariamente. Sin más contexto, yo siempre entendería "Spanish book" como "libro de texto de la lengua española". Claro que habrá casos en que puede significar "a book in Spanish", pero cuando oyemos "Spanish book" a secas, sin más contexto, creo que casi todos los estadounidenses vamos a entender que se refiere a un libro de texto del idioma español.

Espero que esto les ayude... gracias por la charla, y saludos.


----------



## elianecanspeak

AnitaBig said:


> Justamente porque soy hispanohablante, y me es difícil apartarme de la lógica de mi idioma, me pregunto cuál es la razón por la que ustedes (native speakers) no aceptan esta construcción. Por mi parte, acepto que sea como dices tú, pero me gustaría saber específicamente, si es que puedes explicarme, cuál es el motivo por el que no la consideran válida.
> Gracias!



Después de consultar muchas fuentes, llegué una conclusión muy sencilla.
*La regla es que el objeto de una preposición debe ser substantivo o pronombre y nada más.*

Cuando el sustantivo funciona come adjetiva "a *lace (adj)* curtain" no puede seguir la preposición.  Se puede decir "a *curtain made of lace (noun)*" porque aquí la palabra "lace" funciona como sustantivo y puede seguir una preposición como su objeto.

El uso de "of" con el significado *"made of"* ocurre tambien, pero con menos frecuencia y *en un contexto más poético o retórico*: "way up north in the land of ice and snow"; "a day of infamy"; "a curtain of lace".  Aquí, tambien, lo que sigue la preposición debe ser sustantivo. 

*En los dichos ejemplos el substantivo no es igual al adjectivo:* ice/icy, snow/snowy, lace/lacey. *Tal vez esto sea importante a nuestra cuestión;* "French (adj)" y "French (noun)" son lo mismo.

Ojalá sirvas.


----------



## Frank Furt

Pues voy a aportar un nuevo punto de vista sobre "Spanish book" y "book of Spanish".

La cuestión es que trabajo en una editorial, que está implantada en varios países. La comunicación interna de mi empresa es en inglés y la expresión "Spanish book", refiriéndose a un libro "made in Spain" es muuuuy frecuente, como también lo es "Italian book", "French book", cuando es el equipo editorial de esos países el que hace el libro, independientemente del contenido del mismo.

Por eso, para mi, en mi contexto, es muy clara la diferencia entre "Spanish book" y "book of Spanish" (es que también publicamos libros de aprendizaje de idiomas, por lo que también es una expresión que escucho con mucha -demasiada, a veces- frecuencia)


----------



## ramaya

Hay palabras en ingles que no se pueden revertir porque no tienen sentido al pronunciarlas, como por ejemplo:

a box of red, A book of wet

Y hay veces que cuando se revierten las palabras tambien cambia el significado de las mismas, por ejemplo:

A Spanish book= un libro escrito en español
a book of Spanish= un libro de español, lo cual se puede considerar como un libro para aprender español 

esto puede ser relativo a un libro de ingles o un libro en ingles...


Y si el idioma ingles tiene reglas pero estan llenas de muchas excepciones, para ser sincero tiene mas excepciones que reglas.


----------



## ramaya

ampurdan said:


> Now, the problem is that "a Spanish book" usually means "a book in Spanish", right?




not necessarily


----------



## Frank Furt

¿Quereis que la liemos? Pues ahí voy:

What is the difference between "an English teacher" and "a teacher of English"? Isn't it the same as between "an English book" and "a book of English"?


----------



## ramaya

Frank Furt said:


> ¿Quereis que la liemos? Pues ahí voy:
> 
> What is the difference between "an English teacher" and "a teacher of English"? Isn't it the same as between "an English book" and "a book of English"?



In this case the English teacher does not change in meaning but the book of English does.

We cannot speak or write in English thinking in Spanish nor we can apply the same rules in both languages.


----------



## Frank Furt

OK. Liémoslo más aún:

"I have got a teacher of Maths"
"I have got an English teacher of Maths"

"I have got a teacher of English"
"I have got an English teacher of English"

I really can see a difference in meaning between "teacher of English" and "English teacher", can't you? Exactly, the same difference in meaning between "book of English" and "English book".


----------



## ramaya

Frank Furt said:


> OK. Liémoslo más aún:
> 
> "I have got a teacher of Maths"
> "I have got an English teacher of Maths"
> 
> "I have got a teacher of English"
> "I have got an English teacher of English"
> 
> I really can see a difference in meaning between "teacher of English" and "English teacher", can't you? Exactly, the same difference in meaning between "book of English" and "English book".



 Usually native speakers  won't say "I have got a teacher of maths" instead they say "I have a math teacher".  English speaking people always try to be as short as possible in their phrases, nothing compare with Spanish sentence structure.


----------



## Frank Furt

I agree with you, but they are just examples. I'm trying to find out whether there is or not a difference in meaning between both structures (no matter how usual they are).

How would we say that my English teacher comes from England?

"I have got an English English teacher" or "I have got an English teacher of English"

(don't you think that playing with the language is fun???)


----------



## ramaya

Frank Furt said:


> I agree with you, but they are just examples. I'm trying to find out whether there is or not a difference in meaning between both structures (no matter how usual they are).
> 
> How would we say that my English teacher comes from England?
> 
> "I have got an English English teacher" or "I have got an English teacher of English"
> 
> (don't you think that playing with the language is fun???)



It's frustrating sometimes, especially when you speak with native English speaking people. Anyways, an English teacher from England it's just that "an English teacher from England" 

Aqui no aplica el orden de los factores no altera el producto ya que el orden de las palabras si alteran el sentido de lo que se dice.


----------



## Arrius

_*A book of poems/of short stories/ of quotations*_ are normal English, but a _book of Spanish_ is just not said or written.


----------



## Frank Furt

Arrius said:


> _*A book of poems/of short stories/ of quotations*_ are normal English, but a _book of Spanish_ is just not said or written.



Well, we (people in my work) must sometimes say or write "a book of Spanish" (Spanish grammar, vocabulary, etc.) because it is the only way we have to distinguish it from "a Spanish book" (a book made by the Spanish team of my company).


----------



## ramaya

Frank Furt said:


> Well, we (people in my work) must sometimes say or write "a book of Spanish" (Spanish grammar, vocabulary, etc.) because it is the only way we have to distinguish it from "a Spanish book" (a book made by the Spanish team of my company).




You could use the term:
Spaniard's books


----------



## Frank Furt

ramaya said:


> You could use the term:
> Spaniard's books



Uf, no sé Ramaya, pero eso sí me suena raro. Y nuestros compañeros "Britons" en España igual se enfadan...


----------



## Arrius

*Spaniard's books* no se dice tampoco. Si fuera así, significaría _unos libros que suelen tener los españoles_, que suena muy raro también.


----------



## ramaya

Arrius said:


> *Spaniard's books* no se dice tampoco. Si fuera así, significaría _unos libros que suelen tener los españoles_, que suena muy raro también.




No quize ofender a nadie, pero si buscan en el diccionario encontraran que Spaniards es lo mismo que decir Españoles, no se si actualmente ya no se use este termino; de la misma manera que se nos dice a los nativos de las americas de habla Hispana "Hispanos" 

No sabia que era desagradable para ustedes, disculpen, pero para eso mismo entre a este foro, para aprender. 


gracias.


----------



## jmx

Arrius said:


> _*A book of poems/of short stories/ of quotations*_ are normal English, but a _book of Spanish_ is just not said or written.


Would you say this? "A book about Spanish."


----------



## chileno

Interesting!

Spanish book, and Spanish textbook, as in learning the Spanish language, comes to mind.

What's the name for a novel written in the Spanish language?


----------



## Arrius

jmartins said:


> Would you say this? "A book about Spanish."


 
Yes, or _on Spanish_, but that would be a description of the language rather than a book for learning it, which would be _a Spanish course(book)/dictionary/grammar _etc. _A Spanish book_ is any book written in Spanish.


----------



## roanheads

From the dict. , one of the definitions of " Book " ( noun ) is,
" main division *of *literary works"
Therefore a literary work such as a Book of Spanish, complies with this definition which divides it from, for example, a Book of English.
A book has to consist of " something ",whether it be Spanish or whatever, as in " a telephone directory book, which is a book of telephone numbers.
So perhaps in a grammatical sense it is correct, only we don't use it very often. ?

¿O es que ,al igual que Frank, que me gusta liarla para sacar comentarios ?


----------



## elianecanspeak

The problem with "of" in English is that it has multiple, distinct meanings, each with specific rules .  The following is a partial list from the Cambridge dictionary.  
of preposition POSSESSION
of preposition AMOUNT
of preposition CONTAINING
of preposition POSITION
of preposition TYPICAL
of preposition DAYS
of preposition MADE OF
of preposition WITH ADJECTIVES/VERBS
of preposition JUDGMENT
of preposition RELATING TO
of preposition THAT IS/ARE
of preposition DONE TO
of preposition FELT BY
of preposition THROUGH
of preposition COMPARING
of preposition TIME
of preposition SEPARATE FROM
of preposition LOSS
of preposition DURING

In this thread we have discussed and compared uses of "of" which fall into different catagories.  The use of "of" for "containing" is different than the use of "of" for "made of".

So, some of the rules we must consider apply to prepositions in general, and others to specific uses of "of".  Hence the confusion.


----------



## findingraichu

Frank Furt said:


> Well, from my point of view, you can say "a book of Spanish" if you are talking about a book which teaches you Spanish.
> 
> A "Spanish book" is any book published in Spain. A "bookf of Spanish" is a book about the language, and it could have been published anywhere. So you could even say: "a French book of Spanish", if it is a book on Spanish language, published in France.


Not so.  Si quisiera decir así, diría "A book published in Spain" o posible "A book from Spain".
Por lo más, "A Spanish book" es un libro de texto, para aprender español.
Si un libro es escrito en la idioma español, es "A book in Spanish" o "A book written in Spanish".
"A book of Spanish" makes no sense.  "A book of Spanish [noun]" does.


----------



## panjandrum

Please forgive me for butting in and especially if previous posts in Spanish have already said what I am about to say.  I have no Spanish.

What is "a Spanish book"?
The answer depends entirely on context and especially on intonation - how you speak the words.

_Where is my Spanish book?_

If I stress _Spanish _a lot more than _book_, then I am talking about a book that is about the Spanish language - a text book.

If I stress _Spanish _and _book _equally, then I am talking about a book that is Spanish.  It is probably written in Spanish.  It may have been published in Spain.

I would not talk about a "book of Spanish".  That phrase seems very strange to me.


----------



## horsewishr

Frank Furt said:


> Well, we (people in my work) must sometimes say or write "a book of Spanish" (Spanish grammar, vocabulary, etc.) because it is the only way we have to distinguish it from "a Spanish book" (a book made by the Spanish team of my company).



Imagino que la gente con quein trabajas habla español--ya que eres de España.  Angloparlantes no hablarían asi.


----------



## Spug

Hello,



panjandrum said:


> _Where is my Spanish book?_
> 
> If I stress _Spanish _a lot more than _book_, then I am talking about a book that is about the Spanish language - a text book.
> 
> If I stress _Spanish _and _book _equally, then I am talking about a book that is Spanish.  It is probably written in Spanish.  It may have been published in Spain.



In American English, if you use the phrase _Spanish book_ without additional context, I believe that virtually all of us will understand that to mean a textbook for learning the Spanish language, regardless of your intonation. Perhaps other AE speakers will respond...

To refer to a book published in Spain, I believe most of us would simply say, "a book published in Spain ", or "a book from Spain."

Cheers...


----------



## problem solver

When you say Spanish book, you are using Spanish as an adjective describing what the book is about. When you say a box of lemons, you are using "of" as a preposition which then gives information on the object in the box, the lemons. Lemons would be a noun in this case. If you were to say lemon box, lemon would be an adjective describing the box.and not a noun as in the previous sentence.  Hope this helps


----------



## chileno

And at Merrian-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spanish

it is listed as functioning as a noun, but in the etymology is listed as an adjective.

Whereas at the AskOxford http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0796240#m_en_gb0796240

They have as both.


----------



## k-in-sc

Spug said:


> To refer to a book published in Spain, I believe most of us would simply say, "a book published in Spain ", or "a book from Spain."


"A book from Spain"! Finally! I was wondering when somebody would say that ...


----------

