# official letter



## eugene.n

Hey everyone!

Can someone help with the translation of the following sentence: 

"Please find the original of my birth certificate enclosed that Państwo has requested. Given the fact that I work full time I don't have an opportunity to present the mentioned document myself. "

Best regards,





Thanks!


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## LilianaB

W załączeniu przesyłam akt urodzenia, który Państwo zażyczyli sobie. Ze względu na to że pracyję w pełnym wymiarze godzin nie moge go dostrczyć osobiscie. That should be it.


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## eugene.n

Dziękuje bardzo!


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## dreamlike

Liliana's translation is basically fine, but the "który Państwo zażyczyli sobie" part sounds cumbersome. It should be - który sobie Państwo zażyczyli, but I'd advise against using this word altogether. 

W załączniku przesyłam swój akt urodzenia, o który Państwo prosili. Jako że pracuję na pełen etat (or _w pełnym wymiarze godzin_), nie mogę dostarczyć wspomnianego dokumentu osobiście.


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## LilianaB

No, it does not have to be. This is just a matter of style  -- there is no fixed word order in Polish. I like my version more, not that is is mine but it just sounds better to me.

You absolutely do not need _swój_ in the sentence. _Mój_, maybe, but it is not needed either. I am very sorry Dreamlike, but the sentence you are suggesting sounds somewhat cumbersome. I read a lot of official Polish letters, so I have some basis to express such opinions.


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## dreamlike

Rest assured that "który Państwo zażyczyli sobie" is a wrong word order and it sounds plain wrong. 

What do you mean there is "no fixed word order in Polish"?  That we can use the words all we like? If there is no fixed word order, why not writing this?

Urodzenia przesyłam akt w załączeniu, sobie który Państwo zażyczyli...


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## dreamlike

I'm not going to quarrel about such a petty thing. I just strictly followed the original.

Please find the original of *my *birth certificate enclosed that Państwo  has *requested.* Given the fact that I work full time I don't have an  opportunity to present *the mentioned document* myself. 
W załączniku przesyłam *swój* akt urodzenia, o który Państwo *prosili.* Jako że pracuję na pełen etat (or _w pełnym wymiarze godzin_), nie mogę dostarczyć *wspomnianego dokumentu *osobiście.

"ktory Państwo zażyczyli sobie" is really a wrong worder order, Liliana, why would I want to undermine your version for no reason? But let's wait for others to confirm.


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## LilianaB

No, Dreamlike. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sentence I suggested. Maybe you are not used to formal correspondence. "Moj akt urodzenia" -- "mój" is redundant. The word order in the the sentence I suggested is not wrong  -- perhaps just typical of more formal types of correspondence. Other word orders are possible as well.


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## dreamlike

Of course, you always know better, Liliana. I've seen a lot of formal pieces of writing in my life and "Który państwo zażyczyli sobie" is as wrong as it can be.

Oto samochód, który Tomek sobie kupił.
Oto komputer, który Anka sobie kupiła. 

In such a context, "sobie" always follow those who perform the action - "Państwo", "Tomek", "Anka".
Please wait for other native speakers of Polish to contribute.


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## kknd

dreamlike said:


> "ktory Państwo zażyczyli sobie" is really a wrong worder order, Liliana, why would I want to undermine your version for no reason? But let's wait for others to confirm.


jest zdania szyk w języku polskim, który fleksyjny jest, dość w ogólności swobodny. wyrazów jednakże uporządkowania niektóre są za bardziej uważane natualne, a za mniej inne. wynika prawdopodobnie to z chęci rytmu wypowiedzi zachowania, a z odwrotnego przede wszystkim niż w angielskim języku zdania tematyczno-rematycznego porządku, czy też zapewne uświęconej tradycją zdrową naturalnej kolejności informacji dostarczania w zdaniu. znowu zgadzam się z obojgiem w pewien sposób, choć przychylam się tutaj bardziej do widzenia dreamlike'a punktu jednak.


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## dreamlike

Bardzo trudno czyta się Twój post napisany przy użyciu tego "swobodnego" szyku.


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## LilianaB

Yes, you can say: zażyczyli sobie or sobie zazyczyli. it really does not make that much difference in Polish. Certain word order can be used for emphasis, just as an example.


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## majlo

I absolutely agree with dreamlike. Your sentence does sound cumbersome. I don't why you're so adamant, Liliana, you're not a Polish native speaker.


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:


> eally does not make that much difference in Polish. Certain word order can be used for emphasis, just as an example.



It makes all the difference in the world in the given context. Który państwo zażyczyli sobie is simply a bad style and it sounds odd, as suggested by me or majlo.
But I know it might prove difficult for me to convince you.


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## mateo1114

I definitly agree with Majlo and Dreamlike.
Even for my "Który państwo zażyczyli sobie" is sounds cumbersome and odd. This style is common in Bible and another  an archaic literary work. Recently I make the observation that it's really hard to convince LilianaB, even if native speakers make different conclusion.


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## ewie

*(Interim) Moderator note: *Approximately two whole pages of off-topic argument have been hacked off the end of this thread.  Will everyone please try to stay on-topic and, if the urge to argue strikes you, do it via private message._

_Finally, here's a reminder of this old saw (I've forgotten the exact wording so will paraphrase it):_

If one person calls you a horse, smile and ask for a second opinion.
If two people call you a horse, start worrying.
If three people call you a horse, neigh politely and eat your hay.
_


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## Ben Jamin

dreamlike said:


> Rest assured that "który Państwo zażyczyli sobie" is a wrong word order and it sounds plain wrong.
> 
> What do you mean there is "no fixed word order in Polish"?  That we can use the words all we like? If there is no fixed word order, why not writing this?
> 
> Urodzenia przesyłam akt w załączeniu, sobie który Państwo zażyczyli...



I must agree here with LillianaB that the incriminated word order is not* wrong*. Certainly it is not grammatically or syntactically wrong, but the style can be discussed. The placing of "sobie" gives a strong stress at this word, and may be perceived as impolite ("why on earth did* you *ask for this?!").


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## LilianaB

Thank you for acknowledging the truth. (I will not discuss it any further -- I promise -- slightly pretentious rather than impolite)


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## dreamlike

Well, make what you will of that, I still find it wrong. Even if it's not syntactically or grammatically wrong, I consider it as such because it's a bad style.


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## ewie

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

_(That's the line drawn under the argument)_


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