# Urdu/Hindi/Pashto: Pathan vs Pashtun/Pakhtun ...



## UrduMedium

I have heard that the name _paThaan_ is derived from _pashtuun/paxtuun_. While _paThaan_ does sound similar to the the other two, I'm curious if there's more to it. After all there seems to be no hindrance in pronouncing _pashtuun/pakhtuun_ (x to _kh _shift) in at least most North Indian languages. So why was the need to adopt a new name? Or perhaps the name is older than _pashtuun/paxtuun_? Are there other examples of sh/x to Th shifts? 

Doesn't seem like _paThaan _is of Pashto origin, as I don't believe it even has Th (aspirated T) sound.


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## BP.

It could have come from the name of Baitaan, apparently the name of the first Pashtun man to be found in Arabic records.


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## Qureshpor

UM SaaHib, here is a three page article of some value. I shall ask one of my Pathan friends if he is aware of the word origins. I shall get back if there is anything worth reporting back.

http://www.pakhtun.com/index.php/about-pashtuns/origins-of-pashtuns/pashtun-origins


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## UrduMedium

BelligerentPacifist said:


> It could have come from the name of Baitaan, apparently the name of the first Pashtun man to be found in Arabic records.





QURESHPOR said:


> UM SaaHib, here is a three page article of some value. I shall ask one of my Pathan friends if he is aware of the word origins. I shall get back if there is anything worth reporting back.
> 
> http://www.pakhtun.com/index.php/about-pashtuns/origins-of-pashtuns/pashtun-origins



Many thanks to both BP and QP saahibaan. Very insightful information. So per the link above, it may have gone pakhtun > pakhtana > paThaan route. The Baitaan linkage is also interesting. The following makes a brief mention of it as well.

http://www.hindukushtrails.com/tribes/pathans.asp


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## souminwé

The /sh/ in_ pashtun_ is actually retroflex. Or, written in Hindi, पष्तून. The plural of 'Pashtun' in Pashto is پښتانه _paṣtānə_. Seeing as Sanskrit ष्ट frequently becomes Prakrit ठ, I am going to assume that ष्त has been re-analysed similarily.

EDIT: I am not sure if _paṣtānə _is the plural of 'Pashtun' or if it means 'Pashtun race'. I seem to recall _-un_ being a plural marker in Pashto? I can't be sure, my Pashto knowledge is limited at this point.


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## souminwé

UrduMedium said:


> The Baitaan linkage is also interesting.



More likely than not, the Arabic name is merely a transcription from the Indic form.


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> The /sh/ in_ pashtun_ is actually retroflex. Or, written in Hindi, पष्तून. The plural of 'Pashtun' in Pashto is پښتانه _paṣtānə_. Seeing as Sanskrit ष्ट frequently becomes Prakrit ठ, I am going to assume that ष्त has been re-analysed similarily.
> 
> EDIT: I am not sure if _paṣtānə _is the plural of 'Pashtun' or if it means 'Pashtun race'. I seem to recall _-un_ being a plural marker in Pashto? I can't be sure, my Pashto knowledge is limited at this point.



Do you know if the sh in Pashto (language) is a retroflex?


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## UrduMedium

souminwé said:


> The /sh/ in_ pashtun_ is actually retroflex. Or, written in Hindi, पष्तून. The plural of 'Pashtun' in Pashto is پښتانه _paṣtānə_. Seeing as Sanskrit ष्ट frequently becomes Prakrit ठ, I am going to assume that ष्त has been re-analysed similarily.
> 
> EDIT: I am not sure if _paṣtānə _is the plural of 'Pashtun' or if it means 'Pashtun race'. I seem to recall _-un_ being a plural marker in Pashto? I can't be sure, my Pashto knowledge is limited at this point.


Very interesting. Thanks. Slightly off-topic, but can you share some popular examples of Sh-T -> Th? Also any other Sh-t -> Th examples?


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## souminwé

QURESHPOR said:


> Do you know if the sh in Pashto (language) is a retroflex?



Yes, that's what I was referring to. The /sh/, in dialects using it as opposed to /x/, is retroflex (you will note the "strange" form of shin in پښتانه). Wikipedia's 'Pashto Phonology' should help you out.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Very interesting. Thanks. Slightly off-topic, but can you share some popular examples of Sh-T -> Th? Also any other Sh-t -> Th examples?



I can give you a few Persian/Punjabi examples

kusht (linked to killing) >> kuTTh (in some dialects of Punjabi...maiN kukRii kuTThii e...I have killed the hen)

pusht (back) >> puTTh

angusht (finger)>> anguuThaa (as in Urdu)

usht(ur) (camel) >> huTTh (in some Punjabi dialects)

musht (fistful) >> muTTh (muTThii in Urdu)

I think there are more but I can't think of them at the moment.

goshah (not quite gusht!) [corner] >> guTTh


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## UrduMedium

^Thanks QP saahab. Excellent examples. It's a slam dunk


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## souminwé

UrduMedium said:


> Very interesting. Thanks. Slightly off-topic, but can you share some popular examples of Sh-T -> Th? Also any other Sh-t -> Th examples?



No, no, not off-topic at all! You are completely in the right to want back-up for my claims.

It is, first of all, just my hypothesis that the ष्त in 'Pashtun' was promoted to  ष्ट before becoming the phoneme we have today. So it could be wrong, but I have some reason to believe I am right. To my knowledge the sequence ष्त does not occur in Sanskrit; it may occur in some subsequent languages, which I think would be those occurring near Burushaski, Pashto etc. You only ever find ष्ठ or ष्ट in Sanskrit though. Which is expected; the entire consonant-cluster is usually retroflexed if one unit of the sequence is retroflex: ex. दर्शन but दृष्ट्वा (from this example, we might conjecture that retroflexisation is right spreading). More reason for ष्त to become ष्ट. Of course, Indic speakers at the time may have simply misheard the entire cluster. 

This all relies on the assumption that Indic speakers could still hear and pronounce ष at the time of borrowing, which has implications on the age of Pashto. The word may have been filtered through a language that did retain this sound before reaching Indic in the form of ष्ट  - and it would indeed be more likely that a language spoken closely to Pashto retain ष. It would probably be Indic or Iranian, though notably Burushaski has ष today. Examples of ष containing languages in Pakistan: Wakhi (Iranian), Shina and Kalasha (both Dardic - Kalasha is incredibly conservative of Sanskrit phonology and consonant clusters).

As for ष्ट -> ठ, there are plenty of examples.

ओष्ठ -> होंठ
अष्ट -> आठ
षष्टि -> साठ 
रुष्ट -> रूठा



PS. I'll put in romanisation soon,  but this has been so much easier in Devanagari IMO


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## souminwé

QURESHPOR said:


> I can give you a few Persian/Punjabi examples
> 
> kusht (linked to killing) >> kuTTh (in some dialects of Punjabi...maiN kukRii kuTThii e...I have killed the hen)
> 
> pusht (back) >> puTTh
> 
> angusht (finger)>> anguuThaa (as in Urdu)
> 
> usht(ur) (camel) >> huTTh (in some Punjabi dialects)
> 
> musht (fistful) >> muTTh (muTThii in Urdu)
> 
> I think there are more but I can't think of them at the moment.



I never noticed the _-sht_ maps right onto ष्ट in Persian-Sanskrit cognates! 
Ultimately your Punjabi examples are from Sanskrit. पृष्ठ, अङ्गुष्ठ, उष्ट्र, मुष्टि (don't know where_ kuTTh_ comes from but its relation to _kusht_ is intriguing). I don't really know what श्त becomes in Modern Indic. Most likely थ. But it seems like the cluster is consistently warped to ष्ट in common Indo-Iranian vocabulary. Which makes one wonder what was so special about श्त that Early Indic speakers retroflexed it.

Thoughts for another discussion I suppose, lol


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## hindiurdu

Retroflex sh is pervasive in soft Pashto. The same Pashto letter ښ becomes ख़/x or ष/retroflex sh depending on language. BTW it isn't legitimate to call the 'retroflex sh' Hindi-Urdu. It has been lost in that language(s) and speakers of it pronounce it as a regular sh. Sanskrit of course has it. Often Kashmiris and Pahari speakers will say it too, but as an allophone of the regular 'sh' (one more Sanskrit feature that is preserved in isolated languages). Classic example is 'foot' - pxaa/xpaa in hard Paxto variants and pshaa/shpaa (retroflex sh) in soft Pashto. I think Chinese has retroflex sh also from the sounds of it.


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> I shall ask one of my Pathan friends if he is aware of the word origins. I shall get back if there is anything worth reporting back.



I have managed to contact my Pathan friend who unfortunately is not aware of the etymology of the word. However, he does recommend a book called, "The Pathans: Olaf Caroe". In fact he has recommended this book to me on previous occasions because I too have a link with Pathans. In the past I have searched for this book but was unable to find it. However, you must be a lucky omen. Here it is if you ever have the time (or the inclination).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37228762/The-Pathans-by-Olaf-Caroe


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## hindiurdu

QURESHPOR said:


> I can give you a few Persian/Punjabi examples



At least one of this is more likely sanskrit to punjabi (uṣhtra, उष्ट्र), which would also be an example of retroflex sh-T going to Th. Hasn't camel been shatur (شتر) in Persian for a long time? 'Uṣh' or 'ux' (اوښ) in Pashto. ष (ṣh) is halfway between sh and x (feels closer to x and conflating those two seems pretty easy actually) and it is interesting that despite Vedic Sanskrit having x (visargic) and sh, it maintained this distinction all the way to classical Sanskrit (when x was lost from it). Interestingly, there seems to be a ṣh - x relationship in Sanskrit-Avestan/Persian cognates. One example is kṣhetra (→ khet in HU) - xšathra (→ shehr in MP). You can also see a ṣh → k/kʰ at work in many HU dialects. Dhanuṣh → dhanak. Akṣhar → akkhar. kṣhiir (= milk in Skt) → kʰiir (HU, a dessert). It is interesting that ṣh and x follow the same deterioration pattern to 'kʰ' which also reinforces their closeness in my mind.


Separately, I was also reminded of dialectical variations in the Punjabi word for 'saw' (to see) - dissyaa (Malwi)/vekhyaa (Majhi)/dikhiya (Pahari)/diTThyaa (Potohari).


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I have managed to contact my Pathan friend who unfortunately is not aware of the etymology of the word. However, he does recommend a book called, "The Pathans: Olaf Caroe". In fact he has recommended this book to me on previous occasions because I too have a link with Pathans. In the past I have searched for this book but was unable to find it. However, you must be a lucky omen. Here it is if you ever have the time (or the inclination).
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/37228762/The-Pathans-by-Olaf-Caroe


 Thanks QP sb for the book link. I'm also curious to know too, as one of my parental lines originates in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (Bajaur). 

Also thanks to everyone for very informative replies. The _sht _to _Th _shift theory leading to _paThaan _definitely seems weighty.


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## Qureshpor

hindiurdu said:


> Hasn't camel been shatur (شتر) in Persian for a long time?
> 
> Separately, I was also reminded of dialectical variations in the Punjabi word for 'saw' (to see) - dissyaa (Malwi)/vekhyaa (Majhi)/dikhiya (Pahari)/diTThyaa (Potohari).



P اشتر _ushtur [Pehl. ustar, Zend ustra, S. उष्ट्र], s.m. A *camel* (=شتر shutur, the com. form).

هزار اشتر ماده ٔ سرخ موی
بنه برنهادند با رنگ و بوی
(فردوسی

The word isڈٹھا and it goes beyond just Potoharii. 





_


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## hindiurdu

^ But this is like saying that the Hindi word for camel is 'ushtra'. From अंग्रेज़ी हिन्दी शब्दकोश (http://www.shabdkosh.com/s?e=camel&t=0) - _"camel" in Hindi - ऊँटनी, ऊंट (m), उष्ट्र, उष्ट्री, ऊँट (m)_. You'd find thousands of more recent examples of this in modern Hindi usage - way more recent than Ferdowsi. For one thing the Indian National Camel Research Center (राष्ट्रीय उष्ट्र अनुसंधान केन्द्र) in Bikaner. I don't see ushtar in http://www.aryanpour.com/ or http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/masood/cgi-bin/ or http://books.google.com/books?id=OxBMU6P-4S8C. Obviously, Ushtra is common to both children branches of Indo-Iranian but on the Persian side it has devolved to shatur and on the Indic side to oonT/oonTh.

Thanks for correcting me on DiTTha. It's true, I have only heard that form. 'Oh mainu DiTTha si' not 'Oh mainu DiTThya si.' Maybe it is broader than Potohari - this word is native to me from there. Now I feel that even 'dissya' is wrong in Eastern variants. Maybe it is 'oh mainu dissa si' (sounded very odd to me when I first heard it but am now used to it).

Anyway, the broader point is that ख़/x or ष/ṣh are pretty close and it's no surprise that there would be exchange between them.


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## Qureshpor

hindiurdu said:


> ^ But this is like saying that the Hindi word for camel is 'ushtra'. From अंग्रेज़ी हिन्दी शब्दकोश (http://www.shabdkosh.com/s?e=camel&t=0) - _"camel" in Hindi - ऊँटनी, ऊंट (m), उष्ट्र, उष्ट्री, ऊँट (m)_. You'd find thousands of more recent examples of this in modern Hindi usage - way more recent than Ferdowsi. For one thing the Indian National Camel Research Center (राष्ट्रीय उष्ट्र अनुसंधान केन्द्र) in Bikaner. I don't see ushtar in http://www.aryanpour.com/ or http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/masood/cgi-bin/ or http://books.google.com/books?id=OxBMU6P-4S8C. Obviously, Ushtra is common to both children branches of Indo-Iranian but on the Persian side it has devolved to shatur and on the Indic side to oonT/oonTh.
> 
> Thanks for correcting me on DiTTha. It's true, I have only heard that form. 'Oh mainu DiTTha si' not 'Oh mainu DiTThya si.' Maybe it is broader than Potohari - this word is native to me from there. Now I feel that even 'dissya' is wrong in Eastern variants. Maybe it is 'oh mainu dissa si' (sounded very odd to me when I first heard it but am now used to it).
> 
> Anyway, the broader point is that ख़/x or ष/ṣh are pretty close and it's no surprise that there would be exchange between them.



You used the word "shatur", which you may know is incorrect. "ushtur" is indeed the older form and in modern Urdu and Farsi, the word is "shutur" as in "shutur-gurbah" (camel-cat) which is used in Urdu poetry for a mis-match of words e.g. having "tum" in the first misra3 and "tere" (instead of tumhaare) in the second one. Other examples are shutur-murGh.

Re: DiTThaa, you are most welcome. There is no such past tense as "disaa". It is "disiyaa/disyaa".


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## souminwé

hindiurdu said:


> BTW it isn't legitimate to call the 'retroflex sh' Hindi-Urdu.



You are right, I apologise. I should have said "written in Devanagari script" when referring to ष. My postulation was basically that it must have been borrowed at an earlier (Middle Indic?) time, possibly through Dardic.

DiTThaa seems to be related to दृष्ट्(वा)


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## hindiurdu

souminwé said:


> My postulation was basically that it must have been borrowed at an earlier (Middle Indic?) time, possibly through Dardic. DiTThaa seems to be related to दृष्ट्(वा)



I agree, that seems quite possible.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Thanks QP sb for the book link. I'm also curious to know too, as one of my parental lines originates in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (Bajaur).
> 
> Also thanks to everyone for very informative replies. The _sht _to _Th _shift theory leading to _paThaan _definitely seems weighty.



My Pathan friend has also told me that the "gaRh" of pathans in India are cities of "Shahjahanpur", "Muradabad" and "Bareilly".


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