# Samochód myje się przez niego.



## coloboc66

Samochód myje się przez niego.
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Czy moźna tak powiedzieć po polsku?
Bo po rosyjsku moźna...


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## lukis421

Teoretycznie można, ale to zdanie ma mało sensu. Oznacza ono, że samochód dokonuje akcji mycia samego siebie, czego przyczyną jest ktoś inny, jakis "on".


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## coloboc66

Wtedy jak zrobić analogię angielskiego Continued:
The car is being washed by him now.
?


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## lukis421

W języku polskim aspekt bierny jest bardzo rzadko używany w takich sytuacjach, więc najbardziej naturalnym tłumaczeniem tego zdania byłoby "On myje teraz samochód". Jednakże, jeśli nalegasz na aspekt bierny, można też powiedzieć "samochód jest teraz myty przez niego".


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## jasio

lukis421 said:


> W języku polskim aspekt bierny


Strona bierna. 



lukis421 said:


> można też powiedzieć "samochód jest teraz myty przez niego".


Formalnie poprawne, ale trochę dziwne. Jeżeli wykonawcą jest ktoś nieokreślony, a skupiamy się na samochodzie, to zostawilbym samo "samochód jest teraz myty". Jeżeli chcemy zwróci uwagę na wykonawcę, ale podmiotem nadal jest samochód, rzeczywiście można go dodać - ale raczej powinien być to znany wykonawca, np. "samochód jest teraz myty przez Adama, a potem zostanie zwrócony klientowi".


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## Lorenc

As the original poster showed, in Russian the passive voice can be formed by using the reflexive form of the verb + the agent in the instrumental:
1. Машина моется мальчиком (Mašina moetsja mal'čikom) / Тhe car is being washed by the boy.
2. Книги возвращаются в библиотеку учениками (Knigi vozvraščajutsja v biblioteku učenikami) / The books are returned to the library by the pupils.
3. Эта книга долго писалась (èta kniga dolgo pisalas') / This book took a long time to write.

While for examples 1. and 2. Polish _must_ use some other structure, I'm wondering whether for 3. the analogous _Ta książa długo pisała się_ would be okay. To me it sounds okay, not as ridiculous as _samochód myje się_ or _książki wracają się do biblioteki._


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## jasio

Lorenc said:


> As the original poster showed, in Russian the passive voice can be formed by using the reflexive form of the verb + the agent in the instrumental


In Polish passive is passive, and reflexive is reflexive. 
Reflexive form of the verb + the agent in the instrumental is of course used, but the semantics is entirely different: the subject does something to itself using the agent as an instrument or tool. Chłopiec myje się mydłem. The boy is washing himself with a soap. That's why the car example sounds so amusing to or ears: this syntax, while grammatically correct, in Polish would mean that the car washes itself using a boy as soap our a brush. 



Lorenc said:


> 3. Эта книга долго писалась (èta kniga dolgo pisalas') / This book took a long time to write.
> 
> While for examples 1. and 2. Polish _must_ use some other structure, I'm wondering whether for 3. the analogous _Ta książa długo pisała się_ would be okay. To me it sounds okay, not as ridiculous as _samochód myje się_ or _książki wracają się do biblioteki._


Unless you intend to achieve a tongue in a cheek effect, it's very alike to the former. 

From the top of my head, I can think of three common semantic equivalents of the English passive voice:

Impersonal form, which in turn is virtually unused in English: tę książkę pisano bardzo długo, nad tą książką pracowano bardzo długo (btw, to me it sort of implies that it was a collective work)
Passive voice: ta książka była pisana bardzo długo (correct, but sounds natural only in specific contexts)
Active voice, especially using a generic noun as subject: autor pracował nad tą książką bardzo długo (it's obvious that the book has an author of some sort, so this word does not point to anyone specific).
The most natural form is 3 in an isolated statement, but in actual texts all three are possible, and the choice is made for stylistic reasons. 
Perhaps there are some other options possible as well.


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## jasio

A side note:


Lorenc said:


> _książki wracają się do biblioteki._


While in English and Russian the same word is used in both cases (return / возвращаться), in Polish it's different:

Ludzie *wracają* do domu
Książki są *zwracane* do biblioteki
It's possible to use the former colloquially with books or other objects (not in reflexive voice though), but it's a sort of a metaphor - for example, I use it sometimes to avoid imperative mood in a spoken language. I can also think of a using it in dialects (like in 'wróć tę książkę do biblioteki'), but I do not think it would be correct in an educated language - of course, unless you're really thinking about the books walking to the library on their own.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> In Polish passive is passive, and reflexive is reflexive.



Not quite so. Some reflexive constructions express actually a type of passive voice without a specified agent:

Chleb piecze się przez godzinę.
Bilety kupuje się w kasie. (In the XIX Century it was "Bilety kupuj*ą* się w kasie")


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## marco_2

So Russian native-speakers must be careful when using Polish passive voice or reflexive constructions: I remember one Russian guy, who tried to say something like "W Polsce kobiety puszcza się przodem", but he said "W Polsce kobiety puszczają się przodem" which changed the meaning of this sentence.


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## Lorenc

jasio said:


> In Polish passive is passive, and reflexive is reflexive.
> Reflexive form of the verb + the agent in the instrumental is of course used, but the semantics is entirely different: [...]



Yes, I understand. I'm not disputing your point, nevertheless it seems to me, as pointed out by Ben Jamin, that there are cases in which the reflexive form has a sort of 'impersonal passive' meaning, and such sentences may very well be translated into English using passive structures. Insofar as Polish is concern, you don't have to consider such structures as passive, only impersonal, but from the point of view of English or other languages one could ascribe them a passive meaning. For example, these are some of the results I found using google:
_1. Długo pisała się ta relacja, bo mimo, że bieg ukończyłam z sukcesem i życiówką [...]
2. Ta część dużo mniej drastyczna. Pisała się długo bo nie było odpowiedniej pogody i związanej z tym weny
3. Książka pisała się długo, od pewnego momentu równolegle powstawały filmy...
4. Tak pisała się historia "Wyklętych"._ The history of the "cursed" was written in this way.
_5. Na moich oczach pisała się straszna historia naszej ziemi, pisała się krwawymi literami, pisała się niewinną krwią... _Before my very eyes the terrible history of our land was being written, it was being written in bloody letters, it was being written with innocent blood...

You could translate the last two with a more literal, metaphorical 'it was writing itself'. Any comments on sentences 1-3?


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## Poland91pl

coloboc66 said:


> Samochód myje się przez niego.
> ----------
> Czy moźna tak powiedzieć po polsku?
> Bo po rosyjsku moźna...


Dla mnie to brzmi bez sensu. Ciężko mi było w ogóle domyśleć się o co chodzi. Bardziej powiedział bym " samochód jest myty przez niego"


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## Ben Jamin

Poland91pl said:


> Dla mnie to brzmi bez sensu. Ciężko mi było w ogóle domyśleć się o co chodzi. Bardziej powiedział bym " samochód jest myty przez niego"


To już było.


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## Shumkichi

Ben Jamin said:


> Not quite so. Some reflexive constructions express actually a type of passive voice without a specified agent:
> 
> Chleb piecze się przez godzinę.
> Bilety kupuje się w kasie. (In the XIX Century it was "Bilety kupuj*ą* się w kasie")


You're confusing two things: the constructions you mentioned are the remnants of what used to be the middle or medio-passive voice. It is still a part of the Greek language e.g. and not so long ago it was present in English too. So, contemporary Polish has only three voices: active, passive and reflexive.


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## Ben Jamin

Shumkichi said:


> You're confusing two things: the constructions you mentioned are the remnants of what used to be the middle or medio-passive voice. It is still a part of the Greek language e.g. and not so long ago it was present in English too. So, contemporary Polish has only three voices: active, passive and reflexive.


What is wrong in my statement then? You did not mention what the alleged confusion is about.


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## senjusan

Ben Jamin said:


> What is wrong in my statement then? You did not mention what the alleged confusion is about.


I am not sure what Skumkichi meant about "confusing" but I can point out how your sentences should sound in correct form:

1. Chleb piecze się przez godzinę - It looks like unfinished sentence in Polish. It should be something more like
"Piekę ten chleb od godziny" or "Chleb pieczemy przez godzinę" or if you really insist on this form you can say something like "Chleb piecze się przez godzinę, a my w tym czasie... (continuation of this sentence)

2. Bilety kupuje się w kasie - Again, this sounds like those tickets are buying themselves which is not logical at all. You can say for example :
"Bilety można zakupić w kasie" or "Bilety dostępne są w kasie" or "W kasie kupuje się bilety"- That last one is in form of statement of the fact that sounds much better than yours example.




Lorenc said:


> Any comments on sentences 1-3?



1. Complete nonsense, at least, without the context which is lacking here for sure. Moreover, "Długo pisała się ta relacja", again, "relacja" cannot write itself, and that how it sounds in this sentence. I would write this like this, and I will try to imagine what the context even is in this case:
"To sprawozdanie (synonym for relacja) zajęło mi wieki, bo mimo, że bieg zakończyłam wielkim sukcesem..." - Again, I dont understand what running "bieg" got common with "relacja", so this is only my wild guess here. One note though, word "relacja" in polish got different meaning in different context, so as I am not aware of full context of the sentence, I cannot be sure with all of this.

2. This one is not so bad, but again, it is taken out of context. I would write it like :
"Ta część jest dużo mniej drastyczna, co prawda pisałem/am ją dłużej ze względu na kiepską pogodę i związaną z tym prokastynacje" - I know, It is pretty advanced words, and I am not aware of your proficiency in Polish, so yea, sorry for that

3. Again same issue, book cannot write itself, somebody has to do it, and we need to indicate this. Of course you can say sentence like this and every single Polish native speaker will understand your intentions 100% correctly, but if you aim for being considered as native speaker, you would have to use something like :
 "Książka pisana była przez długi czas, aż od pewnego momentu równelegle zaczęły powstawać też filmy" - But, again, this is next sentence taken out of context, so I just guess what it should look like.

In other words, welcome in Polish, you picked up one of the hardest language to learn but don't worry to much and do not panic. Even native polish speakers are making stupid and silly mistakes even after 30 years of using this language, so we kinda accept unconsciously all of these small errors, and what is even better, we can be 100% sure that we were using some grammatical forms correctly, until some professor with PhD in Polish will tell the harsh truth that we were in fact, wrong all this time 

PS. This is my first post here, please do not be harsh for me guys.

Pozdrawiam


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## Ben Jamin

senjusan said:


> I am not sure what Skumkichi meant about "confusing" but I can point out how your sentences should sound in correct form:
> 
> 1. Chleb piecze się przez godzinę - It looks like unfinished sentence in Polish. It should be something more like
> "Piekę ten chleb od godziny" or "Chleb pieczemy przez godzinę" or if you really insist on this form you can say something like "Chleb piecze się przez godzinę, a my w tym czasie... (continuation of this sentence)
> 
> 2. Bilety kupuje się w kasie - Again, this sounds like those tickets are buying themselves which is not logical at all. You can say for example :
> "Bilety można zakupić w kasie" or "Bilety dostępne są w kasie" or "W kasie kupuje się bilety"- That last one is in form of statement of the fact that sounds much better than yours example.



You have misunderstood Skumkichis comment. He pointed to the historical origin of those expressions, which I found irrelevant to the examples given.

My examples are indeed perfectly complete sentences:
Q: "Jak długo piecze się chleb?"
R: "Chleb piecze się przez godzinę"

Q: "Gdzie kupuje się bilety?"
R: "Bilety kupuje się w kasie"

It's strange that you declare Polish as your mother tongue. Only a foreigner could find these constructions strange. Polish speakers are used to this peculiarity of the Polish language, and don't find it peculiar at all.


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## senjusan

Ben Jamin said:


> You have misunderstood Skumkichis comment. He pointed to the historical origin of those expressions, which I found irrelevant to the examples given.
> 
> My examples are indeed perfectly complete sentences:
> Q: "Jak długo piecze się chleb?"
> R: "Chleb piecze się przez godzinę"
> 
> Q: "Gdzie kupuje się bilety?"
> R: "Bilety kupuje się w kasie"
> 
> It's strange that you declare Polish as your mother tongue. Only a foreigner could find these constructions strange. Polish speakers are used to this peculiarity of the Polish language, and don't find it peculiar at all.


Ok man, now I am confused xd I am trying to find your comment i was refering to and I cant find it. It looks like I just quoted you and actually I have answered to Loren.

Anyway, if anybody would put it in the way like u with A and Q thqn there would be no confussion at all. And I can prove that I am pure Polish, lets make small talk in my native if you are not sure with mu previous sentences ^^


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## Ben Jamin

senjusan said:


> Ok man, now I am confused xd I am trying to find your comment i was refering to and I cant find it. It looks like I just quoted you and actually I have answered to Loren.
> 
> Anyway, if anybody would put it in the way like u with A and Q thqn there would be no confussion at all. And I can prove that I am pure Polish, lets make small talk in my native if you are not sure with mu previous sentences ^^


I don't question your being Polish, I only pointed out that your comment was strange for a native speaker.
If your comment had concerned the obsolete sentence "Bilety kupuj*ą* się w kasie", then I would have understood your impression. By the way, this construction uses the object (bilety) in the nominative and the sentence really sounds as if the word was the subject of the sentence.


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