# Americans turn an argument upside down?



## Malevo

Hola a todos. Estaba viendo algo en television, una escena de un film norteamericano en que unas personas iban en camino a algun lugar, por en medio de un bosque. Uno de ellos queria seguir camino pero el otro queria acampar. Este ultimo le dice en ingles "cual es tu prisa?" y el otro le contesta sarcasticamente "cual es tu desgano?". 
 En este dialogo se pone de manifiesto una forma de ver la parte opuesta de una cuestion, en solo una linea, el que queria seguir camino da vuelta el asunto, mira el hecho desde el lado opuesto, todo tiene su opuesto.  He visto no solo en dialogos, sino tambien en la vida real como los Americanos usan mucho este recurso para ganar una discusion o un argumento. Un ejemplo de esto es cuando uno explica el por que de determinada accion, para entenderse mutuamente con la otra persona y esta le contesta "bullshit, it`s just excuses". Alguien sabe como se le llama a esto?
Por que los Estadounidenses son tan buenos haciendo esto, dando vuelta los argumentos buscando el lado opuesto de las cosas, para  ganar una discusion? 
Alguien por alli dio un ejemplo. 

-It`s hot in here!
-No, it`s not cold..

Do you know what i mean? 

BUeno gracias a todos.


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## .   1

*SOME* Americans turn an argument upside down.

*SOME* Spaniards turn an argument upside down.

*SOME* Australians are incomprehensible to some people.

.,,


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## Malevo

. said:


> *SOME* Americans turn an argument upside down.
> 
> *SOME* Spaniards turn an argument upside down.
> 
> *SOME* Australians are incomprehensible to some people.
> 
> .,,


 
I understand your clarification and perhaps i should not have generalized. However, such thing  which I`ve pointed out seems to be a big deal among  the people in the US, that`s why i said "americans". 

e.g Argentine people use the word "che" very often.


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## Poetic Device

Malevo said:


> -It`s hot in here!
> -No, it`s not cold...


 

I always considered that the art of sarcasm.  More times than not it's funny as can be, but it does have its place.


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## .   1

Malevo said:


> I understand your clarification and perhaps i should not have generalized.


 It is only safe to generalise about generalisations.



Malevo said:


> However, such thing which I`ve pointed out seems to be a big deal among the people in the US, that`s why i said "americans".


Why do you say that?
Why are Americans more contrary than Spaniards or Australians?



Malevo said:


> e.g Argentine people use the word "che" very often.


I do not understand.

.,,


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## Malevo

. said:


> It is only safe to generalise about generalisations.
> 
> Why do you say that?
> Why are Americans more contrary than Spaniards or Australians?
> 
> I do not understand.
> 
> .,,


 
Well, in answer to your question, I guess It`s because I`ve noticed such thing among Americans, since I  didn`t have the honor  to meet Australians and on the other hand, I have not noticed such big deal of sarcasm among the Spanish-speaking world as much as in the US. 
In the holywood films as well as in real life, Americans are so good in using the sarcasm, sometimes it is hurtful and is so irritating,  I wonder why they are like that...


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## .   1

Malevo said:


> In the holywood films as well as in real life, Americans are so good in using the sarcasm, sometimes it is hurtful and is so irritating, I wonder why they are like that...


Do you speak of Hollywood or reality?

Seinfeld would get his nose broken every five minutes if he carried on like that in real life.

Springer would be flayed alive.

The only reason that shock jocks survive is because they hide their real life away from their slagging public personas.

.,,


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## mickgreen58

[SARCASM ON]
Cause we all know Hollywood is a true representation of what America is all about
[/SARCASM OFF]


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## .   1

mickgreen58 said:


> [SARCASM ON]
> Cause we all know Hollywood is a true representation of what America is all about
> [/SARCASM OFF]


This must be galling for Americans.
I am not a Yank and it gives me a severe case of the irrits.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

The first post made me pause and think.  Perhaps it is a discussion technique, among others, in widespread use.

I haven't noticed it as much as Malevo has, but I'll try to see if it is especially common among one group of people more than another.

In the meantime, I typed foro+argentina+política into Google, to see what sorts of debate techniques were
in use in a few Argentine political discussions. What I've read so far could easily be a US political forum, at least in terms of technique.  http://www.redargentina.com/comun/foros/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41527 is one example.

I haven't read enough to spot any general patterns that I wouldn't find normal in a US political forum...the routine collection of party cant and exaggerations by all sides of the discussion.


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## Xewells

I would say that Americans do use sarcasm more than some other cultures, but it's just our way. I'm living in Peru right now, and I remember being squished into a taxi and saying "Que comodo (how comfy)" And my Peruvian friends thought I meant I was actually comfortable. Just like other countries have slapstick comedy and other forms, we have sarcasm. But I would also say that I have met some Germans and Dutch with good senses of sarcasm too.


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## cuchuflete

Malevo said:


> ... I have not noticed such big deal of sarcasm among the Spanish-speaking world as much as in the US.



Here we have a recent thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=390243 *use of sarcasm in Latin American culture *in which many of the finer Spanish-speaking foreros demonstrate as well as declare that sarcasm is  both better and more frequent in Latin America, and a few mention that they had to turn theirs off on arrival in the US.

I wonder what they would make of the assertion quoted above?


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## Poetic Device

. said:


> This must be galling for Americans.
> I am not a Yank and it gives me a severe case of the irrits.
> 
> .,,


 
Don't get me wrong.  I adore sarcasm.  I thinkk that it is one of the greater arts of humor.  However, yes, Hollywood is a bit much.  Also, some--not all obviously--of the people there are exactly what you woulod tend to think they are like or what they portray themselves to be.  If you go to Long Island you will see a lot of this!  (If you do decide to go, stay away from Stephen King.  He's absolutely horrible in attitude and with sarcasm!)


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## Jigoku no Tenshi

. said:


> Do you speak of Hollywood or reality?
> 
> Seinfeld would get his nose broken every five minutes if he carried on like that in real life.
> 
> Springer would be flayed alive.
> 
> The only reason that shock jocks survive is because they hide their real life away from their slagging public personas.
> 
> .,,


Hello Everybody!

In My country it's also a natural thing to do, If a male friend who has only shallow girls in his neighbourhood says "I don't like the girls around my block", I will say "So, you like the guys", and he will say another thing to start an argument until one of us give up, but it all depends on the place you are, we also use puns to turn a argument against the other people, but it is used when you feel comfortable enough to do it, when I'm with my friends or co-workers, that's a rule, actually we have a Top Ten about sentences who we shouldn't have said just because it was turned against you too easily, so it's sarcasm, and shorts replies very used and allowed.

Now talking about Seinfield and sarcasm, I like being a sarcastic guy, but more than  once or twice I've had to apologize just for avoiding a beating or because it was too hard for the person, so now I only use when I know I can use it. 

People in my country are usually very kind, specially when it's an outsider who is around, so I wonder if people in my country in some grade is naturally sarcastic or is it just influence of the TV, because in small towns, people are very humble and kind, but in the cities, we can be very sarcastic and pedantic if we want, but there's definetly something on my culture that makes us turn sentences and words againts the one who says it, specially if we are under influence of alcohol, but IT'S almost ALWAYS FOR FUN


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## fenixpollo

I don't see this as sarcasm. I see it as a thought pattern in which a situation is described with its opposite.

The "hot/cold" example that Malevo cites in his first post is not a sarcastic response to a question, but merely an answer. Rather than answering in the positive ("yes, it's hot"), the person responds with the negative, or opposite phrase ("it's not cold"). 

Other examples:
-- Do you like chocolate ice cream?
-- It's not bad. (instead of saying "it's all right")

-- How are you today?
-- Not bad. (instead of saying "I'm OK")

-- She's a gorgeous woman, isn't she?
-- She's not unattractive. (instead of saying "she's beautiful" or "she's pretty")

Responding with the opposite/negative is not inherently sarcastic, although it is a form of irony.

I've noticed that English-speakers in general tend to respond in this way more than Spanish-speakers.


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## Poetic Device

So you think that this is just a disagreement in temperature?


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## Mei

Hi there:

 I've met spaniards doing that and I know that there are a lot of people from different places that do it as well... not only Americans. 

Just an opinion. 

Cheers

Mei


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## ireney

We do the same if the weather is mild  I mean when you think it's "hottish" you can either reply "Well, it's not cold certainly, and some people may find it hot but I am not sure I do" or just say that it's not cold. That's how I see it at least and that's a reply both me and my father have often given to my mother (who is prone to complain about the hot weather, honestly you wouldn't believe the woman is born and raised in Greece )


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## .   1

fenixpollo said:


> -- Do you like chocolate ice cream?
> -- It's not bad. (instead of saying "it's good")


It's not bad is totally different to, it's good.
The first is saying that I can take it or leave it.  I'ts acceptable but nothing to writh home to mum about.
The second is a positive statement ind indicates real pleasure.
So sarcasm.  Just shades.



fenixpollo said:


> -- How are you today?
> -- Not bad. (instead of saying "I'm fine")


Again different meanings.
Not bad, but I could be better.
I'm fine, life is sweet.



fenixpollo said:


> -- She's a gorgeous woman, isn't she?
> -- She's not unattractive. (instead of saying "she's attractive")


She's not unattractive, I mean I wouldn't crawl over her to get to you but she's no glamour.
She's attractive.  Flat statement agreeing that she is gorgeous.

No sarcasm just nuances.

.,,


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## Musical Chairs

Malevo said:


> Hola a todos. Estaba viendo algo en television, una escena de un film norteamericano en que unas personas iban en camino a algun lugar, por en medio de un bosque. Uno de ellos queria seguir camino pero el otro queria acampar. Este ultimo le dice en ingles "cual es tu prisa?" y el otro le contesta sarcasticamente "cual es tu desgano?".
> En este dialogo se pone de manifiesto una forma de ver la parte opuesta de una cuestion, en solo una linea, el que queria seguir camino da vuelta el asunto, mira el hecho desde el lado opuesto, todo tiene su opuesto.  He visto no solo en dialogos, sino tambien en la vida real como los Americanos usan mucho este recurso para ganar una discusion o un argumento. Un ejemplo de esto es cuando uno explica el por que de determinada accion, para entenderse mutuamente con la otra persona y esta le contesta "bullshit, it`s just excuses". Alguien sabe como se le llama a esto?
> Por que los Estadounidenses son tan buenos haciendo esto, dando vuelta los argumentos buscando el lado opuesto de las cosas, para  ganar una discusion?
> Alguien por alli dio un ejemplo.
> 
> -It`s hot in here!
> -No, it`s not cold..
> 
> Do you know what i mean?
> 
> BUeno gracias a todos.



Do you think you could translate that for the rest of us who don't know Spanish?


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## Xewells

Hello everyone, I was watching something on tv, a scene from an american film where some people are walking to somwhere in the middle of the forest. One of them wants to keep walking but the other wants to came. The last says in English "Why are you hurrying?" and the other says sarcastically, "Why are you taking so long?"
In this dialogue, they use the opposite to form a point, in just one line. The one who wanted to keep going turns the tables, look at the fact from the opposite side, everything has its opposite. I have seen this not only in dialogues, but also in real life as Americans use this recourse a lot to win a discussion or arguement. An example of this is when one explains the reason of a determined action, to understand each other mutually with the other person and this he answers with "bullshit it's just excuses." Does somebody know what this is called? Because Americans are good at doing this, turning the arguement looking at the opposite side of things, to win a discussion. Someone over there gave an example

-It's hot in here"
-No, it's not cold...

Do you know what I mean?
Well, thanks to all. 

That was my best attempt at translating it. I didn't know what you were refering to at some parts and it shows in the translation, so Malevo if you can give a better translation, that would be awesome.


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## fenixpollo

. said:


> It's not bad is totally different to, it's good. The first is saying that I can take it or leave it. I'ts acceptable but nothing to writh home to mum about. The second is a positive statement that indicates real pleasure.
> 
> Again different meanings. Not bad, but I could be better. I'm fine, life is sweet.
> 
> She's not unattractive, I mean I wouldn't crawl over her to get to you but she's no glamour. She's attractive. Flat statement agreeing that she is gorgeous.
> 
> No sarcasm just nuances.


Thanks for the corrections, dotcommer. You're right that each of the "nuanced responses" implies something different than just a flat response. 

However, my point is still valid: rather than flatly agreeing with a positive statement (with a "yes"), English-speakers often answer with a "no" statement. Maybe the reason is that these nuanced responses convey a different meaning, or maybe it's an attempt by people from low-context, literal thinkers to add some sub-text to their speech.


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## jazyk

> Other examples:
> -- Do you like chocolate ice cream?
> -- It's not bad. (instead of saying "it's all right")
> 
> -- How are you today?
> -- Not bad. (instead of saying "I'm OK")
> 
> -- She's a gorgeous woman, isn't she?
> -- She's not unattractive. (instead of saying "she's beautiful" or "she's pretty")


I don't see this as sarcasm. I think it's just litotes.

Jazyk


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## mrbilal87

Malevo said:


> Well, in answer to your question, I guess It`s because I`ve noticed such thing among Americans, since I  didn`t have the honor  to meet Australians and on the other hand, I have not noticed such big deal of sarcasm among the Spanish-speaking world as much as in the US.
> In the holywood films as well as in real life, Americans are so good in using the sarcasm, sometimes it is hurtful and is so irritating,  I wonder why they are like that...



I think sarcasm is fairly universal among English-speakers in general and its usage is not really restricted to the United States. I know it's used fairly often here and in the UK as well, though sarcasm in the UK seems to be a bit different from sarcasm here.


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## danielfranco

[Personal opinion, unsupported by any facts, be warned.]

I believe that Americans are big with _*understatements*_. Their particular brand of irony is often expressed with litotes. I don't think it's a matter of "turning the argument around" or of being sarcastic. I think that, being a country that reputedly was founded by fundamentalist or puritan religious people, maybe these understatements are a cultural legacy of false modesty. Or maybe even real modesty. I think that, in the USA, we are told constantly to avoid being boastful (consider: "keeping up with the Jonses" is an underground guerrilla-like competition where nobody comes right out saying, "look, we are better than you because we have nicer toys"). And understatements often are statements with less finality and more flexibility for different opinions than assertive statements.
Instead, the Latin American people I've met (including my family), are rather fond of direct sarcasm to express irony. Like it has been discussed before, sarcasm needs to be turn down a notch or too often when some of us Latin Americans transplant ourselves to the States.
Is all, I mean to say.


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## fenixpollo

jazyk said:


> I don't see this as sarcasm. I think it's just litotes.


 I agree... although I had never heard the word litotes until you posted it. I still don't know how to pronounce it, but a definition I found on line describes this phenomenon perfectly.


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## faranji

jazyk said:


> I don't see this as sarcasm. I think it's just litotes.


 
Exactly. A characteristic feature of English, especially when compared to Romance languages. 

'Not unattractive': 87.800 _googles_.
'Not uninteresting': 47.900 _googles_.


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## jazyk

Voilà.

Jazyk


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## anthodocheio

cuchuflete said:


> Here we have a recent thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=390243 *use of sarcasm in Latin American culture *in which many of the finer Spanish-speaking foreros demonstrate as well as declare that sarcasm is both better and more frequent in Latin America, and a few mention that they had to turn theirs off on arrival in the US.
> 
> I wonder what they would make of the assertion quoted above?


 


Jigoku no Tenshi said:


> Hello Everybody!
> 
> In My country it's also a natural thing to do, If a male friend who has only shallow girls in his neighbourhood says "I don't like the girls around my block", I will say "So, you like the guys", and he will say another thing to start an argument until one of us give up, but it all depends on the place you are, we also use puns to turn a argument against the other people, but it is used when you feel comfortable enough to do it, when I'm with my friends or co-workers, that's a rule, actually we have a Top Ten about sentences who we shouldn't have said just because it was turned against you too easily, so it's sarcasm, and shorts replies very used and allowed.
> 
> Now talking about Seinfield and sarcasm, I like being a sarcastic guy, but more than once or twice I've had to apologize just for avoiding a beating or because it was too hard for the person, so now I only use when I know I can use it.
> 
> People in my country are usually very kind, specially when it's an outsider who is around, so I wonder if people in my country in some grade is naturally sarcastic or is it just influence of the TV, because in small towns, people are very humble and kind, but in the cities, we can be very sarcastic and pedantic if we want, but there's definetly something on my culture that makes us turn sentences and words againts the one who says it, specially if we are under influence of alcohol, but IT'S almost ALWAYS FOR FUN


 


danielfranco said:


> [Personal opinion, unsupported by any facts, be warned.]
> 
> I believe that Americans are big with _*understatements*_. Their particular brand of irony is often expressed with litotes. I don't think it's a matter of "turning the argument around" or of being sarcastic. I think that, being a country that reputedly was founded by fundamentalist or puritan religious people, maybe these understatements are a cultural legacy of false modesty. Or maybe even real modesty. I think that, in the USA, we are told constantly to avoid being boastful (consider: "keeping up with the Jonses" is an underground guerrilla-like competition where nobody comes right out saying, "look, we are better than you because we have nicer toys"). And understatements often are statements with less finality and more flexibility for different opinions than assertive statements.
> Instead, the Latin American people I've met (including my family), are rather fond of direct sarcasm to express irony. Like it has been discussed before, sarcasm needs to be turn down a notch or too often when some of us Latin Americans transplant ourselves to the States.
> Is all, I mean to say.


 
Hello everybody!
What I see here is that we are talking about two different kinds of sarcasm. I certainly cannot put a name to the "American" one but I think is clear that the "Spaniard" one is direct, as says Daniel, and made to make fun, as says Jigoku.
It can be irritating as well, but only to those that don’t get that you’re want to make fun of the situation.

In the example Malevo gave it’s a totally different thing. 
-Let’s stay.
-No, let’s keep walking.
-Why? Are you in a hurry?
-Why? Are you tired?
This is turning the things upside down. This way you can’t get anywhere. This is not a conversation and it’s painful if one is actually trying to say something to the other person. I know. As Irene said about her father, I would have to mention my teenage brother. He don’t let be talked to, this way. OK, that shows is not just an “American” issue. I just wanted to point out that we are talking about two different things here. …As far as I understand…

Saludos
anthodocheio


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## Malevo

This is my translation of the original post, It might not be so good, however i hope you all can understand what I try to say.


hi everybody! I was watching some movie on tv, a scene of an American film in which some people were on their way to somwhere, walking through a forest. One of them wanted to keep walkinh, but another one wanted to camp. This one tells the other "cual es tu prisa" and the other replies sarcastically "cual es tu desgano" (i don&acute;t know how to translate this last one, it appeared like that in the spanish subtitles) 
THis dialogue shows a particular way to see the opposite side of a matter, in just one line, the guy who wanted to keep walking looks for the opposite side of the matter everything has its opposite. I`ve noticed it not only in dialogues in the movies, but also in real life, how Americans use this resource to win over an argument or a discussion. An example of this is when you try to explain yourself, to get understanding, and tell the other person why you did something and this person tells you "bullshit, that`s just excuses". Does anybody know how such thing is called? Why are Americans so good in doing this, turning the arguments upside-down, looking for the opposite side of things, to win over a discussion?


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## Xewells

A much better translation than mine.

I think, however, the example of "Bullshit, that's just excuses" and using the opposite of a statement to make a point are different techniques. One is posing a sort of socratic answer while this other is just offering a blunt and rhetorical answer.


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## Malevo

anthodocheio said:


> Hello everybody!
> What I see here is that we are talking about two different kinds of sarcasm. I certainly cannot put a name to the "American" one but I think is clear that the "Spaniard" one is direct, as says Daniel, and made to make fun, as says Jigoku.
> It can be irritating as well, but only to those that don’t get that you’re want to make fun of the situation.
> 
> In the example Malevo gave it’s a totally different thing.
> -Let’s stay.
> -No, let’s keep walking.
> -Why? Are you in a hurry?
> -Why? Are you tired?
> This is turning the things upside down. This way you can’t get anywhere. This is not a conversation and it’s painful if one is actually trying to say something to the other person. I know. As Irene said about her father, I would have to mention my teenage brother. He don’t let be talked to, this way. OK, that shows is not just an “American” issue. I just wanted to point out that we are talking about two different things here. …As far as I understand…
> 
> Saludos
> anthodocheio


 
I certainly agree with you about the fact that when you are talking to someone and they answer like the guy-who-wanted-to-rest you get nowhere. But you also get nowhere when whatever you say is attacked in this particular way I meantioned. I`m going to try to find a better example. And this matter I`m trying to learn about is more than sarcasm. 
For example, a good resource Americans use (not all of them, but in general) to defend themselves is to say that something is insulting. You might have never thought oabout insulting them, things that are not rude for you, could be rude for them. No examples come to my head now but I`ll try to find some. Or else, when you try to analize a certain matter, they tell you "don`t jump to conclusions" when you know that something is really obvious. I`ve noticed that most of them have always a way to get away with it, they always win, and sometimes it`s so irritating.. `
Howver i was not very clear, bcause i know that this irony/sarcasm or whatever name you wanna call it, is used all over the world, it`s just that I`ve seen that its so strong among americans, and that`s also shown in soap-operas, and in comedies too in a very funny way


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## Acrolect

What is sarcasm? Is it a form of irony, is it the same as irony or is something completely different? I am just asking because this question keeps haunting me because I feel it is one of these terms that people use a lot without any clear definition.

Litotes, IMHO, does not have a fixed function. I think it can be used as understatement and in this case _not bad_ actually means 'pretty good', or for downtoning disagreement. In the dialogic examples given I'd say it is the latter. So if I say _This is wonderful _and somebody replies _It is not bad_, I take this as an indication that she does not really agree. But I would not count this as either irony or sarcasm.


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## mrbilal87

Acrolect said:


> What is sarcasm? Is it a form of irony, is it the same as irony or is something completely different? I am just asking because this question keeps haunting me because I feel it is one of these terms that people use a lot without any clear definition.



In general, sarcasm is the use of irony to offend others; irony itself may not be offensive.


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## .   1

The Collins:
*irony* _n_ *1* the humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean. *2* an instance of this, used to draw attention to some incongruity or irrationality. *3* incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is, or a situation or result showing such incongruity[C16: from Latin _ironia_, from Greek _eironeia_, from eirondissembler, from _eirein_ to speak.]
*sarcasm *_n_ *1* mocking, contemptuous, or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult. *2* the use or tone of such language. [C16: from Late Latin _sarcasmus_, from Greek _sarkasmos_, from_ sarkazein _to rend the flesh,from _sarx_ flesh.
*sarcophagus* _n_ a stone or marble coffin or tomb, especially one bearing sculpture or inscriptions. [17: via Latin from Greek _sarkophagos _flesh devouring; from the type of stone used, which was believed to destroy the flesh of corpses.]

Irony is gentle and intended to display irrationality or incongruity.
Sarcasm is an intent to use words to rend the flesh of the victim.

.,,


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## Packard

fenixpollo said:


> I don't see this as sarcasm. I see it as a thought pattern in which a situation is described with its opposite.
> 
> The "hot/cold" example that Malevo cites in his first post is not a sarcastic response to a question, but merely an answer. Rather than answering in the positive ("yes, it's hot"), the person responds with the negative, or opposite phrase ("it's not cold").
> 
> Other examples:
> -- Do you like chocolate ice cream?
> -- It's not bad. (instead of saying "it's all right")
> 
> -- How are you today?
> -- Not bad. (instead of saying "I'm OK")
> 
> -- She's a gorgeous woman, isn't she?
> -- She's not unattractive. (instead of saying "she's beautiful" or "she's pretty")
> 
> Responding with the opposite/negative is not inherently sarcastic, although it is a form of irony.
> 
> I've noticed that English-speakers in general tend to respond in this way more than Spanish-speakers.


 

When I was about 8 years old I went to my Grandmother's house.

I said, "Grandma, it is hot outside, can I open the window?"

And she said, "And if you open the window, will it get cold outside?"

And _that_ is sarcasm.  (Thank you, Grandma.)


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## Poetic Device

Better use of sarcasm:

"Excuse me, are you having car trouble?"
"No, I just wanted to sit here and inhale the fumes of the cars passing me by."


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## mrbilal87

Another good one, before we get off topic:
_
Person 1: Nice shirt. Did you make it yourself from all the old food in the garbage can?

Person 2: That's a good one. Did you come up with that on your own?_ 

Someone actually said that to me, and that's how I actually responded.


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