# wobei



## elroy

In English "whereas" can be used in a juxtaposition, in which two dissimilar concepts are discussed in the same sentence:

Most linguists are interested in theory, whereas I am more interested in applied linguistics.
My friend calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.

Can "wobei" be used in such situations?


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## Ralf

elroy said:
			
		

> In English "whereas" can be used in a juxtaposition, in which two dissimilar concepts are discussed in the same sentence:
> 
> Most linguists are interested in theory, whereas I am more interested in applied linguistics.
> My friend calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.
> 
> Can "wobei" be used in such situations?


Meine Vorschläge:

Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)
Mein Freundin ruft mich jeden Abend an; ich *hingegen* tue dies selten. (Hier würde "wobei" sehr ungewöhnlich klingen.)

"Wobei" verwende ich eher, wenn ich eine Auswahl treffen bzw. eine Spezifizierung ausdrücken möchte:

Ich mag alles, was Mark Twain geschrieben hat, *wobei* mir sein Aufsatz über "die schreckliche deutsche Sprache" am besten gefällt.

Ralf


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Meine Vorschläge:
> 
> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)


Here "whereas" could also be "while". You are not expressing two things that are opposed. Most people are interested in theory, WHILE you are interested in related "linguistics".


> Mein Freundin ruft mich jeden Abend an; ich *hingegen* tue dies selten. (Hier würde "wobei" sehr ungewöhnlich klingen.)


Now the meaning is "on the other hands".


> "Wobei" verwende ich eher, wenn ich eine Auswahl treffen bzw. eine Spezifizierung ausdrücken möchte:
> 
> Ich mag alles, was Mark Twain geschrieben hat, *wobei* mir sein Aufsatz über "die schreckliche deutsche Sprache" am besten gefällt.


Here "wobei" is probably best not translated. Strangely, in English you often end up with an "ing" verb-form expressing the idea that the second part is something that is part of the first part. It is understood that you mean "…, and of all he wrote, his ----- appeals to me most of all.

"I like everything that M.T. wrote, his essay about "the awful German language" appealing to me most of all."

It's a nasty bit of translating!

Gaer


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## Tanuki

Well yes, "wobei" does fit in such cases, but Ralf's examples are indeed smoother. The best choices for your examples would be "..., ich hingegen ..." or, a tad more colloquial and fluid: "..., ich dagegen ..."

Another phrase that's also applicable and fitting here is a während, i.e.
"Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *während *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere."

Side note: wow, it has been a while since I last saw a wohingegen... 

-T


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## Whodunit

Tanuki said:
			
		

> Side note: wow, it has been a while since I last saw a wohingegen...


 
Really? I'd even prefer that in writings, especially formal things like applications etc.:

Ich persönlich interessiere mich am meisten für die Sprachen, *wohingegen* mir die naturwissenschaftlichen Fächer wie Physik oder Biologie nicht besonders liegen. Viele Menschen finden Sprachen nicht anwendbar, *ich jedoch* möchte später einmal in ein fernes Land reisen, um dort meine Sprachfähigkeiten weiter auszubauen, da ich mich sehr für sie interessiere. *Während* ich mich meine ganze Schulzeit gegenüber mit Sprachen und Religion beschäftigt habe, haben viele meiner Mitschüler lieber die Leistungskurse Mathematik und Physik belegt. *In Anbetracht dessen* bin ich zwar sehr talentiert, *jedoch* weiß ich, dass man auch eine bestimmte Leistungskurve in der Mathematik vorweisen können sollte.

Das schreibe ich nicht über mich, sondern nur als Sample-Text.


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## Tanuki

Aber sicher, im formalen Kontext macht es sich allemal besser als die anderen Alternativen - indes ändert das aber nichts daran, daß ich es seit geraumer Zeit nicht mehr gesehen habe. 

-T


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## elroy

Ralf said:
			
		

> Meine Vorschläge:
> 
> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)
> Mein Freundin ruft mich jeden Abend an; ich *hingegen* tue dies selten. (Hier würde "wobei" sehr ungewöhnlich klingen.)
> 
> "Wobei" verwende ich eher, wenn ich eine Auswahl treffen bzw. eine Spezifizierung ausdrücken möchte:
> 
> Ich mag alles, was Mark Twain geschrieben hat, *wobei* mir sein Aufsatz über "die schreckliche deutsche Sprache" am besten gefällt.
> 
> Ralf


 
Wie wäre es denn mit einem klaren Zusammenhang?

Meine Freundin und ich leiden unter vielen Problemen.  Vor allem geht es um das Telefon.  Sie ruft mich jeden Tag an, wobei ich dies selten tue.

Ich weiß nicht, ob das überhaupt was ändert, aber ich möchte nur wissen, ob es irgendeinen Zusammenhang geben könnte, in dem "wobei" in diesem Satz überhaupt verweden werden dürfte.


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> Here "whereas" could also be "while". You are not expressing two things that are opposed. Most people are interested in theory, WHILE you are interested in related "linguistics".


 
But "while" expresses the same type of juxtaposition as "whereas."  And I didn't say "opposing," but "dissimilar," which both "whereas" and "while" in English express.

After all, you wouldn't say

My friend likes ice cream, while I do too

or

My friend likes ice cream, where I do too.



> Now the meaning is "on the other hands".
> 
> Here "wobei" is probably best not translated. Strangely, in English you often end up with an "ing" verb-form expressing the idea that the second part is something that is part of the first part. It is understood that you mean "…, and of all he wrote, his ----- appeals to me most of all.
> 
> "I like everything that M.T. wrote, his essay about "the awful German language" appealing to me most of all."
> 
> It's a nasty bit of translating!
> 
> Gaer


 
I agree!  

In English neither "whereas" not "while" would work.  "While" might work if we used it with the first part of the sentence.

While I like everything that M.T. wrote, his essay ... appeals to me most of all.

The "-ing" structure is also a good suggestion.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Wie wäre es denn mit einem klaren Zusammenhang?
> 
> Meine Freundin und ich leiden unter vielen Problemen. Vor allem geht es um das Telefon. Sie ruft mich jeden Tag an, wobei ich dies selten tue.
> 
> Ich weiß nicht, ob das überhaupt was ändert, aber ich möchte nur wissen, ob es irgendeinen Zusammenhang geben könnte, in dem "wobei" in diesem Satz überhaupt verwede*t* werden dürfte.


 
Erkläre deine Idee mal bitte an einem englischen Beispiel. Ich kann dir leider nicht ganz folgen.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Erkläre deine Idee mal bitte an einem englischen Beispiel. Ich kann dir leider nicht ganz folgen.


 
Dann übersetze ich einfach mal dasselbe Beispiel:

My friend and I are going through many problems. It mostly has to do with the telephone. She calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.

So that's one of the primary reasons that we're having problems.

Auch wenn dieses Beispiel allerdings das "wobei" nicht erlaubt, möchte ich gerne wissen, ob es überhaupt ein Zusammenhang geben könnte, in dem "wobei" in diesem Satz (mit dem Telefonieren) verwendet werden dürfte.

Ist es schon klar, oder stehst du noch auf der Leitung?


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## nic456

Elroy,

ich möchte zwei Anmerkungen anbringen.

1 Es geht doch auch While she calls me every night, I rarely call her.
 oder Whereas she calls me every night, I rarely call her.

2 Ich würde wobei als Begleitumstand auffassen, also eine nähere Beschreibung der Umstände.

Er ging weg, *wobei* er hämisch grinste.  

Das passt zu gaers Vorschlag einer Partizipialkonstruktion der Gegenwart (-ing Form).


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Dann übersetze ich einfach mal dasselbe Beispiel:
> 
> My friend and I are going through many problems. It mostly has to do with the telephone. She calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.
> 
> So that's one of the primary reasons that we're having problems.
> 
> Auch wenn dieses Beispiel allerdings das "wobei" nicht erlaubt, möchte ich gerne wissen, ob es überhaupt ein Zusammenhang geben könnte, in dem "wobei" in diesem Satz (mit dem Telefonieren) verwendet werden dürfte.
> 
> Ist es schon klar, oder stehst du noch auf der Leitung?


 
Vielleicht  hänge ich noch immer hinterher, aber "wobei" würde ich auch in diesem Satz verwenden. Im text sowie im Gesprochenen. Ist es das, was du hören wolltest?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Vielleicht  hänge ich noch immer hinterher, aber "wobei" würde ich auch in diesem Satz verwenden. Im text sowie im Gesprochenen. Ist es das, was du hören wolltest?


 
Wenn es die Wahrheit ist, dann schon.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> But "while" expresses the same type of juxtaposition as "whereas." And I didn't say "opposing," but "dissimilar," which both "whereas" and "while" in English express.
> 
> After all, you wouldn't say
> 
> My friend likes ice cream, while I do too
> 
> or
> 
> My friend likes ice cream, where I do too.


I'm lost.

Ths sentence was:

Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)

_For most linguists [the] theory is interesting, whereas I am more interested in related "applied linguistics"._

Since I don't know anything about linguistics, I may be misunderstanding the sentence. But if this is correct, I most definitely would also use "while" there.



> After all, you wouldn't say
> 
> My friend likes ice cream, while I do too


What in the name of heaven and earth does that have to do with the above sentence???  

I must be missing something REALLY basic here, Elroy. 

Gaer


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## nic456

gaer said:
			
		

> I'm lost.
> 
> Ths sentence was:
> 
> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)
> 
> _For most linguists [the] theory is interesting, whereas I am more interested in related "applied linguistics"._
> 
> Gaer


 
I believe you should only use wobei when referring to a *verb*, so it would be unsuitable in the example given above.

Gaer/Elroy, is there any chance you can provide a reason for (not) using whereas/while in the above example?


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Wenn es die Wahrheit ist, dann schon.


 
Eigentlich dürfte sie es sein. Wenn jemand unser Einzelgespräch hier mitverfolgt hat, dann hat er möglicherweise eine andere Antwort  zu bieten.


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> I'm lost.
> 
> Ths sentence was:
> 
> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)
> 
> _For most linguists [the] theory is interesting, whereas I am more interested in related "applied linguistics"._
> 
> Since I don't know anything about linguistics, I may be misunderstanding the sentence. But if this is correct, I most definitely would also use "while" there.
> 
> 
> What in the name of heaven and earth does that have to do with the above sentence???
> 
> I must be missing something REALLY basic here, Elroy.
> 
> Gaer


 
The point was that "while" and "whereas" are synonyms in this case, so it's  six one way, half a dozen the other.  Either way, there is some sort of *contrast*, as evidenced by the inadvisability of that last sentence I suggested - in which both you and your friend like ice cream.

Is it clearer now??


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## elroy

nic456 said:
			
		

> I believe you should only use wobei when referring to a *verb*, so it would be unsuitable in the example given above.
> 
> Gaer/Elroy, is there any chance you can provide a reason for (not) using whereas/while in the above example?


 
You can use either "whereas" or "while" because you are emphasizing that you differ from most linguists.  Perhaps "zwar" (in a loose translation) might serve to highlight that juxtaposition by emphasizing the contrast.

*Zwar* ist die Theorie für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler interessant, aber ich interessiere mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften.

Of course, a better English translation of _that_ would use "granted" (Granted, most linguists,...but,...) but the point is that such a situation would allow "while" or "whereas" in English.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> The point was that "while" and "whereas" are synonyms in this case, so it's  six one way, half a dozen the other. Either way, there is some sort of *contrast*, as evidenced by the inadvisability of that last sentence I suggested - in which both you and your friend like ice cream.
> 
> Is it clearer now??


No. It's not. Please give me a direct answer.

Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)

_For most linguists [the] theory is interesting, whereas I am more interested in related "applied linguistics"._

Is my translation wrong? If it is not, then I would also use "while" there. If my translation is wrong, then please tell me why.  

Your ice cream sentences are not even in the same universe as what I was talking about.  

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> No. It's not. Please give me a direct answer.
> 
> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)
> 
> _For most linguists [the] theory is interesting, whereas I am more interested in related "applied linguistics"._
> 
> Is my translation wrong? If it is not, then I would also use "while" there. If my translation is wrong, then please tell me why.
> 
> Your ice cream sentences are not even in the same universe as what I was talking about.
> 
> Gaer


 
Ok, let's start from the beginning...

You said



> Here "whereas" could also be "while". You are not expressing two things that are opposed. Most people are interested in theory, WHILE you are interested in related "linguistics".


 
I said 



> But "while" expresses the same type of juxtaposition as "whereas." And I didn't say "opposing," but "dissimilar," which both "whereas" and "while" in English express.
> 
> After all, you wouldn't say
> 
> My friend likes ice cream, while I do too
> 
> or
> 
> My friend likes ice cream, where I do too.


 
because I see no difference between "whereas" and "while." In both cases, you are expressing a *dissimilarity*. Theoretical linguistics and applied linguistics are practically on two ends of the spectrum, but even if they weren't, they're still dissimilar. My ice cream example shows that you cannot use "whereas" or "while" (which are synonyms in this context) when there is no dissimilarity. If both you and your friend like ice cream, you would not say "while" or "whereas." If you like different things, though - or even if you like two different types of ice cream - you may use either "whereas" or "while."

While/Whereas I like chocolate ice cream, my friend prefers strawberry.

Therefore, saying that I could substitute "while" for "whereas" doesn't really prove anything. In *both* cases there is a juxtaposition, a dissimilarity. My question was whether "wobei" would work as a substitute. 

It seemed to me that you were maintaining that "whereas" implied stark opposition, while "while" simply implied a comparison (look! I just used "while" without even thinking about it!) If so, then I don't agree with that, because I think that for the most part, they can be used interchangeably.

There is nothing wrong with your translation. I just didn't see the point in bringing in the "while." There are countless synonyms that I'm sure would work great, but they wouldn't prove anything about whether "wobei" would work.

If that's not clear I don't know what else I can do.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Ok, let's start from the beginning...


Okay. 

I said:

_Here "whereas" could also be "while". You are not expressing two things that are opposed. Most people are interested in theory, WHILE you are interested in related "linguistics"._ 

That's where everything went wrong. I wanted to say that "whereas", in such a sentence does not have to show direct opposition, merely contrast. I thought my idea was obvious, but now I see it wsa not. 

"You are studying many languages, while I am only studying two."

If you prefer, use wheras above. This is not opposition. Right? But it shows a difference or *dissimilarity*. To me, opposition is the extreme of *dissimilarity*. Now, I'm getting confused. To me it's such an obvious thing, I thought it was obvious to everyone else. Sorry. 


> because I see no difference between "whereas" and "while." In both cases, you are expressing a *dissimilarity*. Theoretical linguistics and applied linguistics are practically on two ends of the spectrum, but even if they weren't, they're still dissimilar.


Elroy, aren't we saying the same thing?


> My ice cream example shows that you cannot use "whereas" or "while" (which are synonyms in this context) when there is no dissimilarity. If both you and your friend like ice cream, you would not say "while" or "whereas." If you like different things, though - or even if you like two different types of ice cream - you may use either "whereas" or "while."
> 
> While/Whereas I like chocolate ice cream, my friend prefers strawberry.


I understand your point.


> It seemed to me that you were maintaining that "whereas" implied stark opposition, while "while" simply implied a comparison.


No. I never meant that. Frankly, I would be a pretty stupid person if I made such a statement. I agree with you.


> There is nothing wrong with your translation. I just didn't see the point in bringing in the "while." There are countless synonyms that I'm sure would work great, but they wouldn't prove anything about whether "wobei" would work.


I see every reason in the world TO bring in a word such as "while", because it might help Germans who may not realize that, in such a sentence as Ralf showed us, "while" may also be used for a translation. I realize we have strayed away from talking only about wobei, but in this case I think it is justified, since we were talking about related words: wohingehen, hingehen, während.

I know that the name of this forum is "German", but I think you may be forgetting that we who speak English as our first language AND who are able to understand German fluently are in a unique position to give special tips to those here who wish to improve their English.

I was trying to make clear to "natives" how we might solve the same problem, in reverse, since Ralf kindly posted several example sentences. 

<whew>

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> Okay.
> 
> I said:
> 
> _Here "whereas" could also be "while". You are not expressing two things that are opposed. Most people are interested in theory, WHILE you are interested in related "linguistics"._
> 
> That's where everything went wrong. I wanted to say that "whereas", in such a sentence does not have to show direct opposition, merely contrast. I thought my idea was obvious, but now I see it wsa not.
> 
> "You are studying many languages, while I am only studying two."
> 
> If you prefer, use wheras above. This is not opposition. Right? But it shows a difference or *dissimilarity*. To me, opposition is the extreme of *dissimilarity*. Now, I'm getting confused. To me it's such an obvious thing, I thought it was obvious to everyone else. Sorry.
> 
> Elroy, aren't we saying the same thing?
> 
> I understand your point.
> 
> No. I never meant that. Frankly, I would be a pretty stupid person if I made such a statement. I agree with you.
> 
> I see every reason in the world TO bring in a word such as "while", because it might help Germans who may not realize that, in such a sentence as Ralf showed us, "while" may also be used for a translation. I realize we have strayed away from talking only about wobei, but in this case I think it is justified, since we were talking about related words: wohingehen, hingehen, während.
> 
> I know that the name of this forum is "German", but I think you may be forgetting that we who speak English as our first language AND who are able to understand German fluently are in a unique position to give special tips to those here who wish to improve their English.
> 
> I was trying to make clear to "natives" how we might solve the same problem, in reverse, since Ralf kindly posted several example sentences.
> 
> <whew>
> 
> Gaer


 
Gotcha! 

I guess I was so focused on the original question I lost sight of your intention.  My apologies.

I think we are in full agreement.  Both "whereas" and "while" express dissimilarity.   They could express opposition, but they don't have to.

(Everyone else can ignore this bewildering skirmish. )


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## pedro_trionix

Hallo, ich habe einen interessanten Artikel über die Funktion von _wobei _im gesprochenen Deutsch gefunden.

https://d-nb.info/1081296704/34

wobei als Relativ- <-> Adverb Angabe eines kookkurrierenden Sachverhaltes bzw. Aussagenpräzisierung
wobei mit einer konzessiven Lesart "wenn p, dann normalerweise ¬ q"; der thematisierte Sachverhalt ist gültig trotz einer generellen Unverein- barkeit zwischen Situationen des Typs P und Q
wobei zur Einschränkung <-> bzw. Korrektur der vorausgehenden Aussage die Gültigkeit der vorausgehenden Äußerung wird im Nachhinein eingeschränkt bzw. vollständig zurück- genommen
wobei als Dissensmarker der Gültigkeit der vorausgehenden Aussage (des 1. Sprechers) wird durch den 2. Sprecher teilweise bzw. vollständig widersprochen


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## Schlabberlatz

elroy said:


> Can "wobei" be used in such situations?


Das ist denkbar. Immerhin haben sich hier einige Muttersprachler in der Richtung geäußert (auch wenn es schon ein paar Jährchen her ist). Ich persönlich würde ›wobei‹ nicht als Synonym für ›wohingegen‹ verwenden.



elroy said:


> Most linguists are interested in theory, whereas I am more interested in applied linguistics.
> My friend calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.





Tanuki said:


> Well yes, "wobei" does fit in such cases





Ralf said:


> Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, *wohingegen *ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere. ("Wobei" ist in diesem Beispiel jedoch auch möglich.)


Für die meisten Sprachwissenschaftler ist die Theorie interessant, wobei ich mich mehr für angewandte Sprachwissenschaften interessiere  


elroy said:


> My friend and I are going through many problems. It mostly has to do with the telephone. She calls me every night, whereas I rarely call her.





Whodunit said:


> Vielleicht  hänge ich noch immer hinterher, aber "wobei" würde ich auch in diesem Satz verwenden.


Sie ruft mich jeden Abend an, wobei ich sie nur selten anrufe  
Der Satz ist möglich, aber die Aussage ist zu stark abgeschwächt. Deshalb passt ›wobei‹ nicht.


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