# born, bred and buttered



## TheRock55

Salve a tutti.

Se scrivo questa frase ad un nativo americano:

I was born and bred in south italy, and buttered further upstate in Milano.

Mi aspetto che venga interpretata cosi:

Sono nato e cresciuto in sud italia, e successivamente da adulto mi sono trasferito a Milano.

E' corretto?
Grazie


----------



## Saoul

Non sono un madrelingua, ma "to breed" credo che sia "allevare" animali.

I was born and grown up in South Italy, and then I moved to Milan when I grew up.

Io direi qualcosa del genere, ma aspetta un madrelingua.


----------



## TrentinaNE

"Born and bred" is a set phrase in English (at least in AE), which means born and reared.  So born in southern Italy and grew up there is a good interpretation.

_Born, bred, and buttered_ is a cute play on "bread and butter" that I haven't heard before.   

Elisabetta


----------



## usa_scott

The phraseology is strictly colloquial and entirely figurative, meaning born in southern Italy and raised in Milan.


----------



## superscout_girl

I was born and raised in Southern Italy, and as an adult I moved to Milan.

Small corrections.


----------



## TrentinaNE

Ciao, Scott. I noticed that freedictionary.com says of born and bred





> if you were born and bred in a place, you were born and grew up in that place and have the typical character of someone who lives there. _She was born and bred in Jamaica but now lives in France._ (often + _in_) _He's a Londoner born and bred._


Do you take the expression to mean only born in southern Italy and reared in Milan? I thought perhaps "buttered" meant "gained additional seasoning" in Milan, in the sense of moving there after the formative years. But I have to admit, it's a new one on me!

Elisabetta


----------



## usa_scott

TrentinaNE said:


> Ciao, Scott. I noticed that freedictionary.com says of born and bred
> Do you take the expression to mean only born in southern Italy and reared in Milan? I thought perhaps "buttered" meant "gained additional seasoning" in Milan, in the sense of moving there after the formative years. But I have to admit, it's a new one on me!
> 
> Elisabetta



 Yes, you're right - good clarification. You can take it either way. In your case, however, the individual draws a delineation between the place of birth and the place of upbringing. Most times when "born and bred" is used, we stick with a single location.

And as Trentina has noted, _buttered_ is merely an addendum to the standard _born and bred_ and serves as a play-on-words with reference to "bread and butter", which, in America, is like _pane, olio, sale_ is in Italy.


----------



## TheRock55

Molto spesso trovo i tre termini insieme  ad esempio:
born, bred, and buttered in Brooklyn
oppure
born in manhattan, bred in the bronx and buttered in los angeles.
Non trovo sui dizionari il termine esatto per buttered

Ciao


----------



## GavinW

TheRock55 said:


> Molto spesso trovo i tre termini insieme ad esempio:
> born, bred, and buttered in Brooklyn
> oppure
> born in manhattan, bred in the bronx and buttered in los angeles.
> Non trovo sui dizionari il termine esatto per buttered
> 
> Ciao


 
Molto spesso? Davvero? Io, che sono madrelingua inglese, non ho mai incontrato questo gioco di parole. It may be a neologism, and may be restricted to AE. Boh.


----------



## TheRock55

Credo che sia molto AE, solo di alcune parti.

Grazie per i chiarimenti.

Un saluto.


----------



## danalto

Secondo me, a naso, è un soltanto un giochino di parole - tra l'altro molto carino -


----------



## usa_scott

TheRock55 said:


> Molto spesso trovo i tre termini insieme  ad esempio:
> born, bred, and buttered in Brooklyn
> oppure
> born in manhattan, bred in the bronx and buttered in los angeles.
> Non trovo sui dizionari il termine esatto per buttered
> 
> Ciao



It's worth noting that the _breeding_ does indeed take place before the _birthing_, whereby, _born and bred_, although standard AE-speak, is not entirely user-intuitive.


----------



## phistash

As a colloquial phrase "born and bred" is standard AE.  "Born, bred, and buttered" is new to me.  I have never heard anyone say that he was born, bred, and buttered in Brooklyn, and I'm from New York.  I would refrain from using that phrase if you are not a native speaker.


----------



## TrentinaNE

phistash, the expression gets more Google hits than I had expected.   

Elisabetta


----------



## cas29

Saoul said:


> Non sono un madrelingua, ma "to breed" credo che sia "allevare" animali.
> 
> I was born and grown up  *raised *in South Italy, and then I moved to Milan when I grew up.
> 
> Io direi qualcosa del genere, ma aspetta un madrelingua.


 

This is something I hear a lot from non-native speakers.

To try to clarify: 

We raise children (take care of them, teach them manners)
Farmers raise crops (in Lombardia that would be rice, corn or barley! - they plant them, water them, weed them and so on)

Children do "grow up" - but that is spontaneous.
Crops grow, but they don't "grow up"

Lately I have heard of "growing a business" but even though it is used a lot it still sounds very incorrec to me, I prefer "developing or expanding".

And with regards to the initial question - it is new to me, but very cute!
(and I agree that the use of "born and bred" is standard in North America, meaning born and raised, even though it probably sounds very strange to our Italian friends.)


----------



## GavinW

"breed" as a transitive verb: livestock comes to mind, obviously. Or germs. But there was probably a time when it didn't sound strange to use it for kids. And the sense is still there with the nouns "breeding" and "in-breeding" and the adjectives "well-bred" and "ill-bred", and other variants.

"Born and bred": perfectly normal, AE and BE. "Tirare su"/"tirato su" is pretty close to the meaning (although in Italian one says "nato e cresciuto").


----------



## ElaineG

> Lately I have heard of "growing a business" but even though it is used a lot it still sounds very incorrec to me, I prefer "developing or expanding".


 
Nice explanation, Cas.  And I'll join you in opposing growing things that aren't plants.  Every time Bill Clinton used to talk about "growing the economy" to mean "improving/expanding/developing" it sent shivers up my spine.  I blame him for popularizing the use, which has firmly taken root in management-speak.

"Born bred and buttered" è troppo carino, non l'ho mai sentito prima, ma lo userò.  Grazie Rock!

Elaine
(born and bred in Boston, but buttered all over the world)*

*Actually, that sounds rather filthy, I may not use it after all.


----------



## phistash

TrentinaNE said:


> phistash, the expression gets more Google hits than I had expected.
> 
> Elisabetta


 
Thanks, Elisabetta. This makes me wonder if I have heard the phrase before, but filed it away as too cute (or "filthy"). Either way, I still think that it sounds strange and a bit forced coming from someone who is not a native speaker. Also, how exactly is Milan "upstate" from the south of Italy?


----------



## TheRock55

the first time i heard this phrase was a couple of months ago chatting with an old newyorker man , native, (bred in bronx) 85 years old, and i found this phrase cool.. but hard to translate correctly...

i hope this help
ciao


----------



## TrentinaNE

If anyone cares to participate, I've set up a poll about this expression in the English Only forum.   

Elisabetta


----------



## TheRock55

hi phistash, i used upstate based on this my interpretation 
"in the northerly section of a state"
see thefreedictionary.com
May be i am wrong
Ciao


----------



## Bookmom

This is the very first time I've heard the expression with the buttered addendum and three out of three customers in the bookstore at the moment say the same thing.  Really cute alliteration, but new to us.


----------



## phistash

TheRock55 said:


> hi phistash, i used upstate based on this my interpretation
> "in the northerly section of a state"
> see thefreedictionary.com
> May be i am wrong
> Ciao


 

Yes, that is correct, but in American English the "state" to which this word refers is invariably one of the fifty states, and not la nazione. Lo stato e' come una regione. In English the "state" can refer to the nation, just not in this case. So it makes no sense to say that you moved upstate from the South of Italy to Milan, since Lombardia is northern. For instance, if someone from New York State tells me that he is moving upstate I would never take that to mean that he is moving to a more northern section of the United States, but that he is moving to a more northern section of New York.
So you could say, "I was born and raised in the south of Italy but as an adult I moved north to Milan."
Does this make sense or did I not understand your initial post?
Ciao


----------



## TheRock55

Yes phistash you understood well my post.
Your explanation is very clear, thank a lot.
Ciao


----------



## moki

phistash said:


> Yes, that is correct, but in American English the "state" to which this word refers is invariably one of the fifty states, and not la nazione. Lo stato e' come una regione. In English the "state" can refer to the nation, just not in this case. So it makes no sense to say that you moved upstate from the South of Italy to Milan, since Lombardia is northern. For instance, if someone from New York State tells me that he is moving upstate I would never take that to mean that he is moving to a more northern section of the United States, but that he is moving to a more northern section of New York.
> So you could say, "I was born and raised in the south of Italy but as an adult I moved north to Milan."
> Does this make sense or did I not understand your initial post?
> Ciao



Actually I have to disagree...the 50 states are actually states that are united under another singular government. Italy itself is a state, and I don't know about other AE speakers, maybe learning other languages has influenced me, but I, along with other people I know, comonly use the word "state" meaning "nation"


----------



## Snowman75

moki said:


> Actually I have to disagree...the 50 states are actually states that are united under another singular government. Italy itself is a state, and I don't know about other AE speakers, maybe learning other languages has influenced me, but I, along with other people I know, comonly use the word "state" meaning "nation"


I think phistash's point was that although "state" can mean "country", "upstate" is only used when referring to one of the 50 U.S. states. And actually I would tend to agree. Although Australia is also composed of states, we would never use the term "upstate" in that context.


----------



## moki

Alright I will concede.


----------



## TheRock55

Hello everybody
I asked to a native AE (bronx) about the origin of the terms "broad, bred and buttered" , he don't know the origin of the expression. but he gave me this explanation :
First of all, it is a play on words. You know that we "butter bread"---however, the pun "I was born, bred (meaning brought up or reared) and buttered (that is "trained, prepared to face life) in the Bronx."

Here is a sentence you could use to make sense: "I was born in Rome, bred in Milano, and buttered in Naples." Translation: I was birthed in Rome, brought in Milano, and prepared for life in Naples." 

The real pun is on the word "bread" used as "bred". You butter toast, which is preparing to eat it, giving it a special taste, rather than no butter. 

Make sense? Ciao!


----------



## L'equilibrista

In order to maintain a certain assonance of meaning with plants,
I would say "nato, cresciuto e trapiantato", 
for ex. "born in Rome, bred in Milan and buttered in Turin" I would say "nato a Roma, cresciuto a Milano e trapiantato a Torino".

But if it's like TheRock55 says, that is "buttered" = "trained, prepared", then it is different. It would be "nato, cresciuto e formato..".


----------



## Mikk1981

Buongiorno ragazzi,

esiste un modo di dire regionale che recita così: nato, cresciuto e pasciuto, ove _pasciuto_ prende il significato di _mantenuto_. Pertanto _buttered_ suppongo si possa tradurre, non letteralmente di certo, con _mantenuto_ nella misura in cui una persona possa essere cresciuta nella comodità, nella bambagia, mi verrebbe da dire.

Tutto ciò può essere opinabile, ma discutendone con mio nonno si é venuti a capo solo di questo modo di dire, che potrebbe rendere più o meno l'idea.


----------



## italtrav

In italia del sud, sono nato e allattato, poi  a milano ero omogenizatto.

Just playing<g>


----------

