# Cultural Traditions: Santa Klaus



## JaneDoe

Do other cultures such as Africa and France celebrate with Santa, and if so, does Santa Klaus become of their race? Like in Africa, is he african? Just wondering.


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## Garou

i doubt about the race assumption. Just cannot imagine that


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## diegodbs

JaneDoe said:
			
		

> Do other cultures such as Africa and France celebrate with Santa, and if so, does Santa Klaus become of their race? Like in Africa, is he african? Just wondering.


 
The main celebration in Spain is January 6th, The Three Magi. This has always been the main cultural tradition. "Papá Noel" is also celebrated in some families, but not Santa Klaus.


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## annettehola

It's a funny question; though! I never thought about some Big Black Santa wiggling around in sandals, shorts and a thin shirt so as not to get too blackened by the fierce sun in Africa. 
No guys, the Santa thing is nothing but a product of the white - or pinkish, better - man's fantasy of commerce.
Ho-Ho-Ho.
Annette


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## claro

Hmm, I know it's a popular (mis)conception that Santa Claus (or at least his modern image) is just the invention of a certain soft drinks company, but there's much more to it than that. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus.
By the way, in the United Kingdom we usally call him Father Christmas (who in fact has different origins to the American version).


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## Garou

Ded Moroz ('Grand Dad Frost') in Russia


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## cuchuflete

Reminder: this is the topic of this thread.  

"Do other cultures such as Africa and France celebrate with Santa, and if so, does Santa Klaus become of their race? Like in Africa, is he african? Just wondering."

If you wish to share thoughts on related, or unrelated, topics, please open another thread.


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## Fernando

First, theoreticaly, no, in Spain we prefer the (much better) Reyes Magos (Three Kings/wise, Die Drei Koenigen).

The fat guy is gaining ground thanks to US fims and TV programs. I foresee its complete victory in the next generation.

We do not distinguish very much between Papá Noël and Santa Claus. The connection with Saint Nicholas is totally unknown.

And we use the typical Coca-Cola design: a fat bearded man with a stupid red suit. He is not dark-haired in Spain.


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## Vanda

Your question is interesting. I'd like to know what is it like in other places  aside Europe and North America. 
Sometimes they try to adapt Papai Noel (Santa Klaus) to our tropics, sort of  a brunet or black Santa wiggling around in sandals, bermudas and a thin shirt, but it never goes popular. Our 'traditional" Santa is the European one. In some regions, degrees  varying from 35 to 40, Santa is wearing those red heavy clothes, with cotton beards,  sweating as hell, but, even though, very European style. Anyway, it's ridiculous if you can imagine what's like dressing this kind of clothes under this weather conditions. Tradition is sometimes hard to change. 
In the state of Bahia this Christmas they have decorated the historical part of the capital city with a tropical Santa, Maria and Baby Jesus, all looking like baianos (most of them African descendants), but along the country, all shopping malls and  squares have the traditional Santa with the snow landscape and all.


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## cherine

In Egypt, North of the African Continent, we have Santa Claus, called until very recently Papa Noel (French culture), but with the "invading" Americanism, people began preferring the Santa Claus name (though they both are one and same).
He doesn't look Egyptian, nor African, but the same European model : Red clothes and snow beard.... 
The amusing thing is that he's not exclusively Christian  Some muslim families consider him as one of the symbols of New Year's celebrations, and give their children presents claiming they were brought by Santa (or Papa Noel)


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## Hakro

You should remember where Santa Claus comes from: A mountain named Korvatunturi in Finland, behind the polar circle. Even when he goes to Africa to give Christmas gifts to African children he's the same red-skinned, white-bearded man. He can't change his nationality.


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## annettehola

Alright, Hakro, I don't believe a word of what you say. I just got back from Christmas holiday, and during my days in the North and in the snow and with my granddad's woollen hat on my head I tell you this: I went to Greenland as well, and if you don't believe me, that I can't change. And I got my childhood belief confirmed there: Yes! It is true! The red fatty is from Greenland originally. I saw his house. It is red and has a great big chimney on the roof with a ladder. He has a stable as well, next to the house. And a huge letterbox. I can't describe it in greater detail now, but I saw what I saw, yes, I did. About Korvatunturi, I don't think he uses it for much more than a holiday resort these days, to be honest.
Annette


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## xav

Now a word about France.

We have two "Papa Noël", or rather "Père Noël". We don't know "Santa Claus".

The most common one comes from the US and can be seen in the streets and at the door of stores. He speaks to young children and gives them candies. They write to him letters in which they say how they are well-behaved and what they want for Christmas. He doesn't say "Ho-ho-ho !".
This one is rather recent : he came after WWII. He was burnt in front of the cathedral of Dijon, as a deviant idol, in the 50s.

The second one is much older ; it's the original one, "Saint Nicolas" (= "Sankt Niklaus" in German, hence "Santa Claus"), only know in eastern and northern France, probably coming from a German tradition. A very old city of Lorraine wears his name (Saint-Nicolas-de-Port). He is supposed to have been the bishop of Myre (not far from Izmir = Smyrne, in Turkey) and to have brought back to life three young children who had been killed and carved out by a butcher to be eaten later. His feast is on Dec. 6th, and you'll find his photograph on gingerbread men you can buy in every boulangerie in December. On 6th, he leads a parade in the streets of big cities and distributes candies to well-behaved children. He always is accompanied by the "Père Fouettard" (fouet = birch), his Mr Hide, who is in charge to discipline bad children.
In my childhood's village, things were done a bit more seriously : Saint Nicolas came home with the Père Fouettard, and asked the parents how their children had behave during the year. If they weren't satisfied, no candies for them, but strong menaces from the Père Fouettard. Much impressive, and probably rather efficient.

But of course, educating today's children no longer needs anything else as candies. We've seen a first result of this in our "banlieues", two months ago.


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## Outsider

JaneDoe said:
			
		

> Do other cultures such as Africa and France celebrate with Santa, and if so, does Santa Klaus become of their race? Like in Africa, is he african? Just wondering.


The figure of Santa Claus is well known in Portugal (we call him Father Christmas in our language). Needless to say, this  is a recent trend. It was not traditional to honour him, back in the day. Instead, we would honour (and we still do) the birth of Baby Jesus in Christmas, and the visitation of the three Magi in early January. I think you may be underestimating the extent to which Anglo-Saxon culture, and especially American culture, has penetrated the world today.


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## Outsider

Hakro said:
			
		

> You should remember where Santa Claus comes from: A mountain named Korvatunturi in Finland, behind the polar circle. Even when he goes to Africa to give Christmas gifts to African children he's the same red-skinned, white-bearded man. He can't change his nationality.


The real Santa Claus (=Saint Nicholas) lived somewhere in Roman Turkey, I believe. Needless to say, his legend and commercial image have been much transformed.


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## annettehola

In Roman Turkey somewhere, you suggest? Well; why not. I'm beginning to suspect there are more than just one. Or else he's a secret agent, and, in perfect accordance with this, changes his name depending on where he chooses to go. But, no! Lo and behold! Is this really a sort of international fiction accepted by all despite culture and other borders? And is "American culture," a thing that really exists? We can at least conclude that America exists because Santa does.
Does he wear his dreadlock-mask when on Jamaica, I wonder? Distributing his presents saying:"Heeere, man, merry man, yeah!"
The truth is: Sad.
It's nothing but cultural imperialism.
Annette


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## zebedee

annettehola said:
			
		

> In Roman Turkey somewhere, you suggest? Well; why not. I'm beginning to suspect there are more than just one. Or else he's a secret agent, and, in perfect accordance with this, changes his name depending on where he chooses to go. But, no! Lo and behold! Is this really a sort of international fiction accepted by all despite culture and other borders? And is "American culture," a thing that really exists? We can at least conclude that America exists because Santa does.
> Does he wear his dreadlock-mask when on Jamaica, I wonder? Distributing his presents saying:"Heeere, man, merry man, yeah!"
> The truth is: Sad.
> It's nothing but cultural imperialism.
> Annette


 
And a very merry Christmas to you too!


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## GenJen54

> In Roman Turkey somewhere, you suggest? Well; why not. I'm beginning to suspect there are more than just one. Or else he's a secret agent, and, in perfect accordance with this, changes his name depending on where he chooses to go. But, no! Lo and behold! Is this really a sort of international fiction accepted by all despite culture and other borders?


What's with the vitriol?

Saint Nicholas *was* a Bishop in Roman Turkey in the 4th Century AD. There is quite a bit of history on him, some of it factual and some of it "mythic" in nature, should one bother to read it. 

Saint Nicholas Day, according to those who celebrate Saints Days, is December 6, as has already been mentioned, and he is indeed the "inspiration" for the modern day Kris Kringle or Santa Claus. (Saint Ni*klaus). *His more modern Western origins come from Germany (Nikolaus) and The Netherlands (Sinterklauss).

He was a fixture in the Catholic and Greek/Eastern Orthodox churches for centuries (say 1500 years) before he ever became "Americanized" with the red velvet suit and "ho, ho, hos" sometime in the 1950s. 


> And is "American culture," a thing that really exists?


Sure it does, but that would be way off-topic to discuss it here.


> We can at least conclude that America exists because Santa does.


 Not sure what your point is here.


> Does he wear his dreadlock-mask when on Jamaica, I wonder? Distributing his presents saying:"Heeere, man, merry man, yeah!"


Why wouldn't he? There are just as many cultural interpretations of "Santa Klaus" as there are interpretations of Christmas itself.  Why wouldn't Jamaicans be able to take this figure and attribute it so it better relates to people of their own culture?


> The truth is: Sad.


What's sad is the comment you made about Jamaica, which borders on some sort of overt cultural "bias."


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## Outsider

I'm still wondering whether Anettehola was being serious, or facetious.

P.S. I've just noticed that the Wikipedia has a detailed page on Christmas worldwide. There may be others on the Net.


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## Ryu

Hello, I'm from Japan.

It's very strange (and could be very profane) that Christmas is celebrated all over Japan in a big way although there is only a handful of Christians in this country of polytheism (Buddhism and Shitoism).

But we don't "celebrate" Christmas as Christians do.  It is a kind of "festival" or "a happy occasion" very much promoted by commercialism, but we certainly enjoy that.  Many people buy cakes and do Christmas decorations and the town is lit up with electric decorations and cake sellers wearing Santa Claus attire.  Children are wishing their socks be filled with presents (which are almost always given by their fathers or parents), not knowing what Christmas means and who Santa Claus is.

Japan is basically a polytheistic country and we accept any kind of gods if they can mingle with us.  Similar to Romans in the Roman days. 

Do you find it very profane?

There aren't many Christians in Japan (about 1% or so, perhaps) because, I presume, monotheism does not fit the Japanese mentality and culture (and it has little to do with the Imperialism or "national Shintoism" that backed up the Emperor-centered regime after the Meiji Restoration in 1868, which was the governmental change from the samurai feudal system to the Emperor-centered modern government system).

Santa Claus, in Japan, is the very image of Santa Claus in the Western (or American) culture.  And the real Santa Claus (you know those people in some Scandinavian country who officially claim they are real Santa Clauses, in a commercial sense, often visits Japan in the Christmas season.


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## annettehola

Ho-ho-ho you're all funny! I like your comments, all of them. I am obviously both joking and being quite, rather and somewhat serious at one and the same time. That might confuse some. Don't worry, I can't change now. I am, in fact, biased, GenJen. I would be but a soulless body were I not. All I said, say and will say will always, always be biased. You know, my bias is me, I can't imagine myself without me. And so, I'm biased, I guess. But, then, you see, I do believe Santa is; too. And today my childhood belief has crumpled to pieces: I now totally believe Santa is from America. He was invented there, and then exported. It's good dough, and everyone everywhere needs a little extra care and some Christmas-ho-ho now and then, so it was easy to sell the fiction. I always exaggerate somehow to make my point clearer, but I think Santa is good for the American economy. That's what I meant. And then that about American culture: It does exist. But I think it's feeble and biased. It's based on money for the greatest part, and Santa is - in my opinion - a representative for this. But I love Walt Whitman! I love this one book by Steinbeck:"The Grapes of Wrath," I love Paul Auster! I love you when you are not on about money, honey all the time.
Yeah!
Annette


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## xav

"money, honey" - what does that mean ?

I share your view. Le Père Noël, as we call him in France, is an American deviation of Sankt Niklaus' myth, from (an already deviant) christianism toward a pure pagan myth, now slipping down into Mammon's big mouth like most of the American society.
Fortunately neither internet nor this wonderful forum.  

It is now said here that Santa Klaus was invented by Coca-Cola ! Is that true ??


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## annettehola

Money and honey has nothing, nothing to do with each other. That is why I put them side by side. They do not go well together; look! 
I should not show great signs of astonishment if Cola-Cola is involved in this crap. But who invented Cola-Cola? Who owns it? Is that known?
Well; they can take their crap and stick it..aside. I don't take it, for I don't like it. 
Now about real words: "Yule tide," you know, means Christmas. No, it does not. It comes from Scandinavia, - it actually does - and means "time for yule." Now, in Danish this is: "juletid." It originally comes from Icelandic, this word "jul." 
Listen! _it cannot be more PAGAN, (for...Christ's sake!!)_ 
Christ-mas, a mass for Christ, is an absolute and total *mis*understanding based, of course, on a total misinterpretation. Biased, that is. 
In what? Christianity, Sir. And the Church. And Family as an Institution we 
(we???who???) cannot live without. And the President and the Premier Minister on TV. And lots and lots of ho-ho and presents. Consume, worker, for you worked day and night for another year now, take this golden opportunity to buy a little piece of peace and..and..Happiness..Merry, Merry Christmas! Jesus loves you for celebrating His birthday.
I somehow find this a trifle American, see? That's why I wrote that about their lack of culture.
Annette


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## lyrwriter

annettehola said:
			
		

> I now totally believe Santa is from America. He was invented there, and then exported. It's good dough, and everyone everywhere needs a little extra care and some Christmas-ho-ho now and then, so it was easy to sell the fiction. I always exaggerate somehow to make my point clearer, but I think Santa is good for the American economy. That's what I meant. And then that about American culture: It does exist. But I think it's feeble and biased. It's based on money for the greatest part, and Santa is - in my opinion - a representative for this.


 

I find it interesting to see how a non-American views American culture, but disagree with the idea that "Santa" is the invention of capitalist money-driven CEO's in an office building somewhere in New York City. Although I agree that crass commercial usage of "Jolly Old St. Nick" certainly exists, I'm saddened to think that parts of the international community believe that this is all "American Christmas culture" consists of. Has anyone ever heard of the famous "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter? You can read it here: http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

For many Americans, Santa becomes a symbol for "the Spirit of Christmas" once the innocence of childhood belief has passed. Interestingly enough, American children are much more likely to buy into (no pun intended ) the "crass consumer" vision of Santa Claus (who brings them presents if they've been good), a view which has usually vanished by the time they reach adulthood. But of course, there are always those adults who refuse to grow up... I leave it up to you to determine whether that's a good thing or a bad thing... It's this "Spirit of Christmas" that causes things like THIS to happen and inspires people to give in a more meaningful way than boxes and parcels. That, is truly a part of American culture.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion, I will certainly not dispute that...

Sorry about my sentimental little pathos-filled ramble... 

Happy New Year, everyone!


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## stop

lyrwriter said:
			
		

> I find it interesting to see how a non-American views American culture, but disagree with the idea that "Santa" is the invention of capitalist money-driven CEO's in an office building somewhere in New York City. Although I agree that crass commercial usage of "Jolly Old St. Nick" certainly exists, I'm saddened to think that parts of the international community believe that this is all "American Christmas culture" consists of.


Hi, not everyone thinks that, but there are some bitter people out there who get a kick out of slagging off just about everything from your wonderful country. 
I think you'll have a hard job convincing them about the "Spirit of Christmas" thing, but I definitely know what you're talking about with that (I'd prefer to be optimistically naive over bitterly cynical any day).

As to the supposed invention by a fizzy drinks company of the modern, evil, capitalist Santa Claus, if people checked the Wikipedia article menitoned in a post above they would find this:

"Images of Santa Claus were further cemented through Haddon Sundblom's depiction of him for The Coca-Cola Company's Christmas advertising. The popularity of the image spawned _urban legends_ that Santa Claus was in fact invented by Coca-Cola."

Anyway, thanks to American cultural imperialism, it's great to be able to wish everyone a *Happy New Year* in the global language of English on an American-owned website.


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## lyrwriter

stop said:
			
		

> Hi, not everyone thinks that, but there are some bitter people out there who get a kick out of slagging off just about everything from your wonderful country.


 
Well, obviously not everyone thinks that. But I owe you an apology if I sounded too general...and I'm not sure if the part about my "wonderful country" is supposed to have a sarcastic twinge to it, but no matter. There are times when I find myself so angry with my country's political/social workings I could scream...and do...  



> I think you'll have a hard job convincing them about the "Spirit of Christmas" thing, but I definitely know what you're talking about with that (I'd prefer to be optimistically naive over bitterly cynical any day).


 
Yay! Join the optimist's club! Actually, I just recently found out there is such a club...how odd... At any rate, I think my general fondness for the "Spirit of Christmas" comes from the fact that I'm a lot younger than most of the people on this forum...perhaps less jaded as well? I don't know...


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## annettehola

Though not a member of the "American Christmas Culture-" Club, nor the "Spirit of Christmas-"brother/and sister-hood, but, on the contrary, "Annette's Anti-All-American Awfulness" I now wish you a fine day as well and I can't wish anybody anything for a whole year, so make it happen yourselves or avoid it or whatever else you need to do. Just be well, that's all; basically. Keep up the Spirit that is Real and Good, and leave those that can't do that to their Christmas spirit. I find it sad.
Annette


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## Outsider

annettehola said:
			
		

> I always exaggerate somehow to make my point clearer, but I think Santa is good for the American economy. That's what I meant.


And not just the American economy, by the looks of it.


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## annettehola

It can hardly get any funnier, any sadder, nor any more enraging. I have a few questions to the tour guides: What is "Scandinavian breakfast?" Oh, I bet it's the same as "European breakfast," we all know what that is. I wish I could see the "Northern Lights Program," I bet the Northern Light in itself would simply be a bit too bright; pass the program, will you; please? Thank you. My last inquiry is that about "Ice Fishing." I was just wondering why anybody would wish to pay for fishing ice, but I'm so ignorant. Excuse me. 
I also greatly enjoy the rhetoric used:"Today we visit an original reindeer ranch, sit on a sledge and steer a reindeer. The reindeer herder explains everything about reindeer herding..." That's lovely. He must be a nice man. Well; have a look at the vocab and spelling used: "Ranch," "program," - it obviously is directed towards Americans. 
Money is money, honey. Santa is great in his original element. 
Oh, headache! Go away!
Annette


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## stop

lyrwriter said:
			
		

> Yay! Join the optimist's club! Actually, I just recently found out there is such a club...how odd... At any rate, I think my general fondness for the "Spirit of Christmas" comes from the fact that I'm a lot younger than most of the people on this forum...perhaps less jaded as well? I don't know...


I think I may fall into the same category. 
There was no sarcasm about the "wonderful country" thing, by the way, athough I know that that will probably seem incredulous to people with an obsessive and unhealthy grudge towards the Great Satan the USA, not to mention a lack of perspective.
Keep it real. 



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> And not just the American economy, by the looks of it.


Hi Outsider, that page is from an American travel company.


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## cuchuflete

A Christmas parable

Once upon a time, in a faraway galaxy, 
there lived a fat, cholestorel-filled devil.
His corpulence was, according to the doctors from
the still fatter pharmaceutical institute in another faraway land, due to kultural starvation, juxtaposed with excessive intake of junque foods. 

The devil in question had a curious sort of name,
"The Big Bad Exporter"!!!
He exported machinery, paper, tools, wheat,
soybeans, software, and all sorts of other useless stuff.
He even exported movies too dreadful to watch, and
caca-phoney called pop music.

His export business was so successful that it grew to equal
nearly 60% of the volume of his import business, but that's another parable for another day, when we tell the story of the Export Ogre in the great "out there" realm, that sent stuff to the Export Monster's place.

Now why? you children ask, did the Big Fat Ugly Export Ogre
sell so much stuff away from his home?  
Simple, really.

Lots and lots and lots and gobs and mobs of children of all ages in the great "out there" realm thought as hard as they could, and decided that each and every individual one of them wanted to buy that dreadful stuff!

Astonishing? Yes, quite. They could just as well have decided to buy local stuff, but they wanted to buy the Big Bad Worst Meanest Ever Export Monster/Ogre's stuff instead. 
Thus the great "out there" was soon filled to the brim with
blue denim trousers, recorded noise, awful films, and holidays!

Holidays? you ask.  Yes, Holidays!
But, didn't the people of the great "out there" already have
perfectly good holidays of their own?
Why, yes, of course they did.

Did someone, anyone, force them to buy holidays from the Big Bad Exporter?

No.  

How very strange.  None was forced to buy 
Big Bad Ugly Exporter's holidays, yet they did.
And then some of them decided that Big Bad....
Oh, let's just call him BBUE for short...
So they decided that BBUE was responsible for
all the ills and perils and misfortunes of the great
"out there"....and while they wailed and railed and decried
the BBUE's exports of holidays and stuffffff,
they continued, unforced, to decide to buy more
of that horrible stuff.

Moral:  Peoples is odd, queer, funny, lovable, endearing, generous, dorky, strange, sweet....

but especially, illogical.  


Happy New Year
Cuchuflete


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## xav

> I'd really like to understand when, where, how and why this (beautiful) myth is born in one of the most christian nations of the world... Was it in a part of the country which was de-christianizing ?


Finally, since his name comes from Dutch rather than from German, I suppose he was created in New York.


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## te gato

Here in Calgary..Santa ..and he comes on the 24th of Dec.
yet I also share in my mothers Dutch background..there he is Sinterklauss..or..St.Nick (shortened form)..and comes on a big white horse with Black Peter on Jan. 6th..if you were good St. Nick left you something in your wooden shoe..if you were bad Black Peter gave you a lump of coal and tried to take you away to the 'salt mines'.
Also the Christmas Tree stays up until the Tree Wise Men come and take it down..
tg


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## xav

... *te* tree wise men, i suppose ?


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## jupa

xav said:
			
		

> I completely admit this spirit exists, even if I don't like it too much, I'll say why.
> As a young father, I didn't agree with my wife who told our children about le Père Noël, but I nevertheless respected it. My opinion (1) is : it's a deviation of christian love (why should love and peace happen only at the end of the year ?) ; it's a pagan myth and an idol (the projection of man's desire onto an imaginary being) ; it's a lie. How sad when you learn he doesn't really exist ! "Did my parents lie ??"
> To say it otherwise : He is a distorted figure of God, who IS love - but not only love : justice,too.
> My children discovered "le pot aux roses" rather early - the younger was 4 as he saw that le Père Noël had the same shoes and the same voice as his Uncle Christian. I was filming him, one can virtually see him understanding !
> I'd really like to understand when, where, how and why this (beautiful) myth is born in one of the most christian nations of the world... Was it in a part of the country which was de-christianizing ?
> 
> 
> (1) about le Père Noël, dear Lyrwriter - for Santa, I'm not entitled.



I agree with you xav. I too feel that Santa Claus distorts Christian ideals.  I don't plan on encouraging my (future) children to believe in Santa either.

In regards to the comments involving America and Santa Claus, I'd like to share some thoughts. While Santa Claus does play huge part in the commercialism of Christmas, it isn't completely an ignoble concept. As mentioned by Ryu, many non-Christians celebrate this holidy as a time for joy and fun. Santa Claus is just that--joyful and fun. 
Santa Claus is an accessory to Christmas. He does not define it. 

As a Catholic, I celebrate Christmas by attending Mass, spending time with my extended family, and praying for the rebirth of Christ in my heart. 
Many Americans do similar things. Other Americans have very different traditions equal in valor. Please give us some credit. We are not soley concerned with money. In movies and TV shows you see the commercial side of Christmas, but keep in mind that the movies and TV shows are themselves commercial entities of the holiday. Do you expect more from them?
America is a diverse country. Though not every American recognizes this holiday for it's Christian origins, we do have values (not just the value of a dollar.)


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## Brioche

jupa said:
			
		

> I agree with you xav. I too feel that Santa Claus distorts Christian ideals. I don't plan on encouraging my (future) children to believe in Santa either.
> 
> .)


 
When my late mother was a little girl, she was taught to believe that Father Christmas brought the Christmas presents.
She was also taught that telling lies was intrinsically evil.

When she learned the truth, she was greatly upset that her parents lied to her, and decided that she would not tell such lies to her children.

When I was a little boy, I knew that Father Christmas was "just pretend", the same as the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.  I went to see Father Christmas in his [fake] "snow cave", and sat on his knee and told him what I wanted for Christmas, knowing all the time that it was all play-acting, and that the presents really came from my parents.  

I played the same games with my children, and we knew they were games.  We still write "Love from Father Christmas" on some of the presents we give, eventhough my children are adults. (No grandchildren yet!)


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## KingSix

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> What's with the vitriol?
> Saint Nicholas Day, according to those who celebrate Saints Days, is December 6, as has already been mentioned, and he is indeed the "inspiration" for the modern day Kris Kringle or Santa Claus. (Saint Ni*klaus). *His more modern Western origins come from Germany (Nikolaus) and The Netherlands (Sinterklauss).


 
Actually in The Netherlands and Flanders Saint Nicholas is called "Sinterklaas" or sometimes "Sint Nicolaas". We indeed celebrate this day on 6 December, where parents give presents to their children saying that Sinterklaas brought them. 
Santa Claus (on Christmas) is simply called "de Kerstman" (the Christmas-man) in Dutch speaking countries. De Kerstman also brings presents but not only for children. In Flanders it's more a tradition to give presents to each other, like Thanksgiving.
The strange is, if you believe that Saint Nicolas is indeed from Turkey, most countries "used" the figure Saint Nicolas and moved him from 6 December to Christmas.


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## xav

So, about my question "where was he born ?", I think the answer is "in New York", since he comes from the German/Dutch culture.
Am I wrong ?


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## gorbatzjov

In Belgium we celebrate Christmas with Santa ("de Kerstman" in Dutch; "le Père Noël" in French) and children sing from door to door dressed as the 3 Kings on 07/01.

Also, typically for The Netherlands, Belgium and some parts of Germany, we have a Saint who comes from Spain and he's called "Sinterklaas" in Dutch. (Saint Nicolas). He brings candy (oranges) and toys to little kids on 6 dec. He has a big book that tells if you're been good or bad this year. He has several black helpers, called Zwarte Piet(en) in Dutch [there are some jokes about this as Piet is both a boy's name and the name of the male genital]. The night of the 5th he rides his white horse on the rooftops and this black helpers deliver gifts through the fireplace (hence they are black).


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## xav

Thank you, Gorbatzjov - we already had the main part of this information in the precedent posts ; your Santa comes from the USA as our Père Noël, and my question was about the time and the location of the transformation of 

Sankt Niklaus / Sinteer Klaus, supposed to have been in the IIId century the bishop of Myre (Mino Asia), accompanied by Black Peter to enforce the "christian" moral "if you do well you become gifts, if you do wrong you go to hell" ; feast on Dec 6

into

Santa Klaus, living somewhere over the Polar circle with a tribe of reindeers, and bringing candies and Christmas' gifts without any idea of retribution.


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## Aldin

In Bosnia
djed mraz
in Croatia
djed božičnjak
We don't use english words.


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## maxiogee

Aldin, I see that 'djed' is in both names. Does it mean "father" by any chance?


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## Aldin

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Aldin, I see that 'djed' is in both names. Does it mean "father" by any chance?


No,djed is grandfather not father,father is otac in Bosnian


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## Chazzwozzer

I was a little kid when I first heard Santa Claus actually lived in Turkey. I was watching an American cartoon, children were searching for Santa Claus. Eventually, they found out that Santa Claus had lived in Turkey so many years ago.

I visited Santa Claus church in Demre, Turkey before I came to the Netherlands last week. I took some photos there and I can upload them if anybody wants. In Turkey, we never think he belongs to our race. We call him 'Noel baba' which means 'Father christmas'


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## Poetic Device

In America, as far as the physical appearance of Good Olde St. Nicholas is concerned, you will see just as many (if not more) African-American versions of the jolly old man as you will the caucasian.  I have never seen any other derrivative.


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