# Persian: Take 1



## taraa

What is the meaning of 'take 1'?


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## PersoLatin

I think 'take1' here means 'attempt1', the first try.

In film/sound studios, a 'take' is usually a section (scene/sequence/segment) of a film/music, that's made in one attempt, these portions are then put together to make a complete program/film/music track. Sometimes these scenes/sequences take many attempts or 'takes' to complete, as things go wrong, and so they are numbered take1, 2, 3....


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## taraa

PersoLatin said:


> I think 'take1' here means 'attempt1', the first try.
> 
> In film/sound studios, a 'take' is usually a section (scene/sequence/segment) of a film/music, that's made in one attempt, these portions are then put together to make a complete program/film/music track. Sometimes these scenes/sequences take many attempts or 'takes' to complete, as things go wrong, and so they are numbered take1, 2, 3....


Many thanks for the awesome explanation.


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## Sheikh_14

PersoLatin said:


> I think 'take1' here means 'attempt1', the first try.
> 
> In film/sound studios, a 'take' is usually a section (scene/sequence/segment) of a film/music, that's made in one attempt, these portions are then put together to make a complete program/film/music track. Sometimes these scenes/sequences take many attempts or 'takes' to complete, as things go wrong, and so they are numbered take1, 2, 3....



Do you have a term for these in Persian, after all Persians are well and truly film buffs?


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## Shih-Wei

Sheikh_14 said:


> Do you have a term for these in Persian, after all Persians are well and truly film buffs?



برداشت

فهرست اصطلاحات سینمایی و تئاتر - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد


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## Sheikh_14

That's fascinating! For us i.e. in Urdu bardaasht means forbearence, tolerance or patience. Does the modern-day Persian definition differ radically or that it signifies a sense of bear with us for the final product takes time and toil?


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## PersoLatin

برداشتن in Persian has always meant, to pick up/take up/lift up with bar/بر meaning  up/high and داشتن to have/hold, both physically and figuratively.


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## Sheikh_14

Indeed but the term suggested for Take is bardaasht the meaning of which is nearly identical to the one we have in Urdu برداشت (p. 172) برداشت _bardāsht_, Endurance; a musical instrument pertaining to royalty (doubtful meaning); — _bar-dāsht kardan_, To suffer, endure, bear patiently.

Bardaashtan on the other hand means to prop up and support as you suggested. 1) بر داشتن (p. 172) بر داشتن _bar-dāshtan_, To exalt, raise, elevate; to bear up, support, prop, sustain; to pick up; to take, assume; to take upon oneself.

This brings me back to my point that unless there has been a semantic shift in connotations it appears to mean bear with us. That is unless in modern-day Persian forbearance is no longer its primary definition. That would suggest a divergence rather than it "always" being the case.

From a quick online glance it does seem that the definition of the word has changed markedly in Persian from forbearance to removal, harvest and elevation.

So in essence perhaps "take" has been adapted to harvest in Persian with each take being akin to pickings which is quite poetic indeed.


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## PersoLatin

The point I was making is that, in Persian there’s no semantic shift in any form of برداشتن and the shifts you are referring to can only have happened in Urdu, which makes sense as Urdu has borrowed the word.


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## Sheikh_14

The definitions I have provided above are from a Persian dictionary, not an Urdu one thence there has been a clear semantic shift. When it was loaned into Urdu Bardaasht as opposed to the verb bardaashtan used to mean endurance as suggested here A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary, Including the Arabic Words and Phrases to be Met with in Persian  Literature.

Thence unless Steingass is secretly an Urdu-phone masquerading as a Persian dictionary author the semantic shift is clear for all to see.

From the above the parallels between bardaasht kardan in late 19th- early 20th century Persian and bardaasht karnaa in modern-day Urdu are telling. Both use it to mean bear, endure. I can see that this is no longer the case for Tehrani Persian. I would be keen to see if the semantic shift exists for Dari and Tajik too or have they stuck to the original definition?

I've attached the above to clear any misconception.


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## desi4life

^ Please note Steingass’ work is an Indo-Persian dictionary. It reflects pre-20th century Persian usage in India and does not necessarily reflect the usage in Iran/Afghanistan. Just as Indo-English can differ in usage from U.S./U.K. English, the same is true for Indo-Persian differing from Irani/Afghani Persian.


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> ^ Please note Steingass’ work is an Indo-Persian dictionary. It reflects pre-20th century Persian usage in India and does not necessarily reflect the usage in Iran/Afghanistan. Just as Indo-English can differ in usage from U.S./U.K. English, the same is true for Indo-Persian differing from Irani/Afghani Persian


Thank you, myself & others have had this conversation many times on this forum.

It’s about time Steingass was renamed an indo-Persian dictionary.


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## Sheikh_14

desi4life said:


> ^ Please note Steingass’ work is an Indo-Persian dictionary. It reflects pre-20th century Persian usage in India and does not necessarily reflect the usage in Iran/Afghanistan. Just as Indo-English can differ in usage from U.S./U.K. English, the same is true for Indo-Persian differing from Irani/Afghani Persian.


The modern day Persian dictionary was withdrawal. Thence take 1 has been translated to withdrawal 1. The above however is not correct Steingass is a Classical Persian dictionary whereas Hayyim is a Tehrani Persian dictionary which is why the latter is a better representation of how words are pronounced and used in modern day Iran as opposed to how they were spoken prior to the the semantic shifts. 

) برداشت (p. V1-0249) *برداشت* (_bar-dasht_) Noun 1. Amount of money taken by a partner out of the earnings. 2. Introduction, (method of) beginning (a conversation, piece of music, etc.). Ex. برداشت صحبتش بد نبود
       برداشت کردن Transitive verb To withdraw (from one's earnings). To begin New Persian-English dictionary, complete and modern, designed to give the English meanings of over 50,000 words, terms, idioms,and proverbs in the Persian language, as well as the transliteration of the words in English characters

The dictionary above is marketed as a Classical Persian not an Indo-Persian dictionary .https://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Persian-English-Dictionary/dp/8120606701 Therefore I am befuddled as to where you got that from. It is also indicative of why it pronounces words as they were originally with the qaaf and wao being prominent. The above is merely a case of languages evolving and semantic shifts from within rather than a comparison between Jamaican Creole and British English. Anyway putting that to a rest the primary query has been answered so let's leave it at that.


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## Sheikh_14

PersoLatin said:


> Thank you, myself & others have had this conversation many times on this forum,
> 
> It’s about time Stengass was renamed an indo-Persian dictionary.


Could you recommend an online Classical Persian dictionary which would put this issue to bed? There have been instances where Perso-phones such as yourself have made the claim without any corroboration whatsoever as was the case here: Persian: pronunciation of ترسناک. When pressed they simply refuse to respond but stand by their guns.


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## desi4life

Sheikh_14 said:


> The modern day Persian dictionary was withdrawal. Thence take 1 has been translated to withdrawal 1. The above however is not correct Steingass is a Classical Persian dictionary whereas Hayyim is a Tehrani Persian dictionary which is why the latter is a better representation of how words are pronounced and used in modern day Iran as opposed to how they were spoken prior to the the semantic shifts.
> 
> ) برداشت (p. V1-0249) *برداشت* (_bar-dasht_) Noun 1. Amount of money taken by a partner out of the earnings. 2. Introduction, (method of) beginning (a conversation, piece of music, etc.). Ex. برداشت صحبتش بد نبود
> برداشت کردن Transitive verb To withdraw (from one's earnings). To begin New Persian-English dictionary, complete and modern, designed to give the English meanings of over 50,000 words, terms, idioms,and proverbs in the Persian language, as well as the transliteration of the words in English characters
> 
> The dictionary above is marketed as a Classical Persian not an Indo-Persian dictionary .https://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Persian-English-Dictionary/dp/8120606701 Therefore I am befuddled as to where you got that from. It is also indicative of why it pronounces words as they were originally with the qaaf and wao being prominent. The above is merely a case of languages evolving and semantic shifts from within rather than a comparison between Jamaican Creole and British English. Anyway putting that to a rest the primary query has been answered so let's leave it at that.



Indo-Persian usages abound in Steingass, and this has been discussed many times on this forum by @fdb and others.


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## Sheikh_14

Yes because for the most part Urdu has borrowed from Classical Persian and not modern day Iranian Persian. Thence the parallels are bound to be striking. That explains nothing. Using Steingass: A Tutorial | Cameron Cross – Iranian Studies Why would they teach Indo-Persian at an Iranian Studies institute?
It's a befuddling case of Iranian Persian speakers not wanting to admit that for better or for worse their language has undergone drastic semantic shifts. Everything from usage to pronunciations has either been corrupted or evolved. Instead of branding something as foreign outright it must be proven as such.


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## desi4life

Sheikh_14 said:


> Yes because for the most part Urdu has borrowed from Classical Persian and not modern day Iranian Persian. Thence the parallels are bound to be striking. That explains nothing. Using Steingass: A Tutorial | Cameron Cross – Iranian Studies Why would they teach Indo-Persian at an Iranian Studies institute?
> It's a befuddling case of Iranian Persian speakers not wanting to admit that for better or for worse their language has undergone drastic semantic shifts. Everything from usage to pronunciations has either been corrupted or evolved. Instead of branding something as foreign outright it must be proven as such.



They would use Steingass’ dictionary because I believe it’s still the most comprehensive Persian-English dictionary in existence, and it’s readily available online. Here’s what Encyclopaedia Iranica has to say about Steingass’ dictionary (emphasis mine):

“Johnson had revised the Arabic-Persian-English dictionary (2 vols., Oxford, 1777-1780) of John Richardson (d. 1795), and his revision in turn became the model for the Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary (London, 1892) by Francis Joseph Steingass (1825-1903) – *each in content an English distillation of the Indo-Persian tradition.*”


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> “Johnson had revised the Arabic-Persian-English dictionary (2 vols., Oxford, 1777-1780) of John Richardson (d. 1795), and his revision in turn became the model for the Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary (London, 1892) by Francis Joseph Steingass (1825-1903) – *each in content an English distillation of the Indo-Persian tradition.*”


I am sure that should put the matter to bed, I very much doubt it though.

Maybe someone can explain, how it is that modern day Iranian Persian speakers can read & understand the popular and less popular works that fall under 'classical Persian' (CP), despite this; 'semantic shift' & 'lack of knowledge' of CP.

I personally have genuine difficulty taking in & appreciating Indo-Persian poetry, in the genuine way I have seen enjoyed in the sub-continent.


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## truce

I think "take1" in the OP means "فرض 1"


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