# thee/thy



## Consuelo

tengo entendido que *thy* equivale a you(tù-ud)como una forma antgua del pronombre 
ahora, es lo mismo que *thee* o esa es la forma pluralconfused: )
podria traducirlo como *ustedes/you*
*aqui esta la frase completa:*
"I challenge thee, do not cross this bridge alone"
gracias de antemano


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## gotitadeleche

Consuelo said:
			
		

> tengo entendido que *thy* equivale a you(tù-ud)como una forma antgua del pronombre
> ahora, es lo mismo que *thee* o esa es la forma pluralconfused: )
> podria traducirlo como *ustedes/you*
> *aqui esta la frase completa:*
> "I challenge thee, do not cross this bridge alone"
> gracias de antemano



Thou = you (tú)
Thee = you (te)
Thy = your (tu)


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## Consuelo

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Thou = you (tú)
> Thee = you (te)
> Thy = your (tu)


gracias por la aclaracion


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## Like an Angel

¿Sería alguien tan amable de decirme como se pronuncia cada uno de ellos?


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## fenixpollo

Like an Angel said:
			
		

> ¿Sería alguien tan amable de decirme como se pronuncia cada uno de ellos?


Se me olvidaron algunas cosas de mis clases de lingüística, pero allí va:

En las tres palabras, la "th" suena (sonorizada?) como en "that" o "there".
Escritas fonéticamente en español, serían:
thou = /thau/
thee = /thi/
thy = /thai/

Vean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thouhttp://en.wikipedia/ para la historia de estos pronombres.

Saludos.


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## Phryne

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Se me olvidaron algunas cosas de mis clases de lingüística, pero allí va:
> 
> En las tres palabras, la "th" suena (sonorizada?) como en "that" o "there".
> Escritas fonéticamente en español, serían:
> thou = /thau/
> thee = /thi/
> thy = /thai/
> 
> Vean wikipedia para la historia de estos pronombres.
> 
> Saludos.


 Muy bien fenix! 

La explicación de wikipedia es muy interesante. Ahora, lo que nunca terminé de entender es el uso del "thee", si es que significa "te" es castellano.

Por ejemplo, sería: 

I know you = I knowest thee 

Está esto bien? 

Gracias!
MJ


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## RainWoman

Yo sé que cuando alguien está haciendo una oración a Dios en inglés, debe usar el "thee" siempre por respeto.
"We thank *thee*, Father, blah blah blah...", "We ask *thee* blah blah blah...".
También en la Biblia siempre vamos a encontrar eso de thou, thy y thee.
Saludos!


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## fenixpollo

Phryne said:
			
		

> La explicación de wikipedia es muy interesante. Ahora, lo que nunca terminé de entender es el uso del "thee", si es que significa "te" es castellano.
> 
> I know you = I knowest thee
> 
> Está esto bien?


Creo que pusiste el verbo en la forma de "thou", pero con "I" como el subjeto. Creo que sería mejor así: 
_I know thee. Thou knowest me._ _Thou art a really smart person, MJ, and I respect thine opinions. If thou hast any more questions, please asketh._

Antes, el inglés tenía "tú" y "Usted", igual que el castellano. Pero en algún momento, dejamos de hablar de manera casual con la gente y ahora siempre nos hablamos de Usted en inglés... como los Venezolanos (thread).

thou = tú 
thee = te 
thy/thine = tu, tuyo 

you = Usted
you = le
your = su, suyo

Saludos!


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## gotitadeleche

Phryne said:
			
		

> Muy bien fenix!
> 
> La explicación de wikipedia es muy interesante. Ahora, lo que nunca terminé de entender es el uso del "thee", si es que significa "te" es castellano.
> 
> Por ejemplo, sería:
> 
> I know you = I knowest thee
> 
> Está esto bien?
> 
> Gracias!
> MJ



Hi Phryne, Your sentence is correct. You can say "From this day forward I shall give this land unto *thee * and to all *thy * descendents."


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## Phryne

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Creo que pusiste el verbo en la forma de "thou", pero con "I" como el subjeto.  Creo que sería mejor así:
> _I know thee.  Thou knowest me._ _Thou art a really smart person, MJ, and I respect thine opinions.  If thou hast any more questions, please asketh._
> 
> Antes, el inglés tenía "tú" y "Usted", igual que el castellano. Pero en algún momento, dejamos de hablar de manera casual con la gente y ahora siempre nos hablamos de Usted en inglés... como los Venezolanos (thread).
> 
> thou = tú                       you = Usted
> thee = te                       you = le
> thy/thine = tu, tuyo         your = su, suyo
> 
> Saludos!


 Guau, excelente!!! (guau = mi versión castellana de _wow_ )

Así como perdieron la forma casual de tratarse, también agregaron el auxiliar. Mirá:

_What hast thou?_ _= __What do you have?_  _
What hath she?_    = _What does she have?_ 

Bueno, empezaré a practicar, a ver si alguna vez en mi vida puedo leer a Shakespeare en su lengua original! 

I thank thee. Thou _impressest _me! Thy explanaition ist excellent.  

Gracias Rainwoman y gotitadeleche por sus aporte también!  

saludos


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## fenixpollo

Phryne said:
			
		

> I thank thee.  Thou _impressest _me!  Thy explanation ist is excellent. (is refers to the explanation, not thou)


Sorry, gotita, but I have to disagree about Phryne's first attempt.  You're getting it now, though, Phryne!  

Using _hath_ in the third person is really Old English... To practice that form more, try to read the introduction to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales... that'll make your head spin!

Cheers!


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## PSIONMAN

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Antes, el inglés tenía "tú" y "Usted", igual que el castellano. Pero en algún momento, dejamos de hablar de manera casual con la gente y ahora siempre nos hablamos de Usted en inglés


You might be interested to know that the use of the Second Person has not died out completely. When I was growing up in Mid Wales it was very common to hear people use these forms. However, the people that used them were considered to be unsophisticated and poorly educated. I now feel embarrassed that I thought that and I realise that it was part of our dialect and culture

I am sure there are other places in the UK where it is still used in dialect forms. Does anyone know of any?


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## Phryne

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Sorry, gotita, but I have to disagree about Phryne's first attempt.  You're getting it now, though, Phryne!


 El problema es que no sé las conjugaciones...   sólo estoy jugando con ellas y aprendiendo tipo ensayo y error.





> Using _hath_ in the third person is really Old English... To practice that form more, try to read the introduction to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales... that'll make your head spin!
> 
> Cheers!


 Lo voy a tener en cuenta! 

Mil gracias!!!!! 



			
				PSIONMAN said:
			
		

> You might be interested to know that the use of the Second Person has not died out completely. When I was growing up in Mid Wales it was very common to hear people use these forms. However, the people that used them were considered to be unsophisticated and poorly educated. I now feel embarrassed that I thought that and I realise that it was part of our dialect and culture
> 
> I am sure there are other places in the UK where it is still used in dialect forms. Does anyone know of any?


 Muy interesante Psionman! No tengo ni idea quién habla así. 

I salute thee and thee!


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## gotitadeleche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Sorry, gotita, but I have to disagree about Phryne's first attempt.  You're getting it now, though, Phryne!
> 
> Using _hath_ in the third person is really Old English... To practice that form more, try to read the introduction to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales... that'll make your head spin!
> 
> Cheers!



You're right fenix, I didn't pay attention to the verb.


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## gotitadeleche

PSIONMAN said:
			
		

> You might be interested to know that the use of the Second Person has not died out completely. When I was growing up in Mid Wales it was very common to hear people use these forms. However, the people that used them were considered to be unsophisticated and poorly educated. I now feel embarrassed that I thought that and I realise that it was part of our dialect and culture
> 
> I am sure there are other places in the UK where it is still used in dialect forms. Does anyone know of any?



I don't know if they still do it, but I always heard that the Quakers here in the USA still use that form of speaking. Can anyone out there verify that?


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## fenixpollo

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> I don't know if they still do it, but I always heard that the Quakers here in the USA still use that form of speaking. Can anyone out there verify that?


From the wikipedia article I posted above (boldface mine):
_Quakers__ formerly used thee as an ordinary pronoun; the stereotype has them saying thee for both nominative and accusative cases. This was started by __George Fox__ at the beginning of the Quaker movement as an attempt to preserve the egalitarian familiarity associated with the pronoun; it was not heard that way, and seemed instead to be an affected attempt at speaking like the King James Bible. *Most Quakers have abandoned this usage.* The dropping of the subjective case thou has also extended to their usage of the ye, the subjective 2nd person plural pronoun, which is a hypothesis of why "you" is missing its subjective case._

_In Modern English in some parts of northern England, "tha" is still used as a familiar pronoun in everyday speech._

Have a good one, y'all!


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## gotitadeleche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> From the wikipedia article I posted above (boldface mine):
> _Quakers__ formerly used thee as an ordinary pronoun; the stereotype has them saying thee for both nominative and accusative cases. This was started by __George Fox__ at the beginning of the Quaker movement as an attempt to preserve the egalitarian familiarity associated with the pronoun; it was not heard that way, and seemed instead to be an affected attempt at speaking like the King James Bible. *Most Quakers have abandoned this usage.* The dropping of the subjective case thou has also extended to their usage of the ye, the subjective 2nd person plural pronoun, which is a hypothesis of why "you" is missing its subjective case._
> 
> _In Modern English in some parts of northern England, "tha" is still used as a familiar pronoun in everyday speech._
> 
> 
> Have a good one, y'all!




Thank you fenix!!!


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## Like an Angel

¡¡¡Muchísimas gracias a todos por las explicaciones!!!, especialmente fenixpollo


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## fenixpollo

Thou art too kind, Like an Angel.  It is always a pleasure collaborating with thee.


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## josama

I hadn't read this thread. Wiki's article on thou/thy/thee is beautiful!


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## morgana05

Does anyone watch Coronation Street?  There is a character called Fred Elliot, a broad Lancashire man.  He often uses Thee Thy etc.  A typical example is: What's the matter with thee?  Don't speak to thy mother like that  (He always repeats himself twice)  It is a Yorkshire Lancashire thing and sounds so comical   I LOVE IT


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## cirrus

I come from the North but live down south so these days I only use it if I'm drunk or emotional because I got sick of people taking the mick.


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## Eugens

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> _I know thee. Thou knowest me._ _Thou art a really smart person, MJ, and I respect thine opinions. If thou hast any more questions, please asketh_


Hi Fenixpollo! I do have a question for thee! 
There is something I don't understand: why "asketh" and not "askest"? Isn't it "thou askest" and "he/she asketh"? Or is it that in the imperative the conjugation is different?
Is there a website (besides the Wikipedia's page) that explains these old conjugations?


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## fenixpollo

The answer, Eugens, is on the wikipedia page:





> Some later authors [such as fenixpollo] also use _thou thinketh_ and similar forms with the old third person singular ending in _-eth_ with _thou_. *This is a mistake*, and usually crops up in writing using _thou_ in later parody.


 I confused the third person verb form with the second person.  You are correct that I should have written _askest_... although if there is such thing as an irregular second-person verb in English, I would make the case that this would be one of those.   I am slightly less familiar with thee/thou than I am with the vosotros form in Spanish... and I couldn't conjugate vosotros to save my life!  

The wiki article goes on to say this: 





> In modern regional English dialects that use 'thou' or some variant, it generally takes the third person form of the verb. This comes from a merging of Early Modern English 2nd person singular ending'-st' and 3rd person singular ending '-th' into '-s'.


 I don't know of any other sites off the top of my head.... it bears investigation.


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## Eugens

jaja  Thank you!


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## nikvin

my understanding was that the letter y  as in you/thou, ye /the
came into use as a quick way of writing a th, but later became the accepted norm, much the same way as the spanish ñ was originally a way of writing nn, and in french
the ˆ over letters was written to replace a following S (hospital/hôpital etc..)

if y was indeed used to replace th, it would explain some of the confusions over the varied old forms.


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## LizzieUSA

Phryne said:
			
		

> El problema es que no sé las conjugaciones...  sólo estoy jugando con ellas y aprendiendo tipo ensayo y error.


 
Here is the conjugation for Middle English regular verbs:

I (yo) same as today's conjugation: I say, I walk
thou (tú/vosotros) -est:   Thou sayest, thou walkest
you (usted/ustedes) same as today's conjugation: You say, you walk
he/she/it (él/ella) -eth: He sayeth, he walketh
we (nosotros) same as today's: We say, we walk

I think it is interesting to note that God was spoken to using the informal pronoun.


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## pcplus

----
ahora los ingleses y americanos hablan de tú a todo (tú es lo mismo que usted en inglés), yo no diría que es de usted porque entre personas muy cercanas siempre "you", aunque también para las lejanas.


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## fenixpollo

Estoy de acuerdo que el registro o el tono suena como si todos los angloparlantes nos habláramos de "tú", pero gramaticamente, "you" = usted.

Saludos.


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## pcplus

*y hace cuanto que se dejó de hablar así?? era sólo a principios de siglo???*

*entonces era sólo para el presente normal, y para las preguntas y negaciones era lo mismo???*
*---------------------------------aprovecho esto para decir*

*por cierto, el auxiliar "shall" para el futuro de la primera persona (singular y plural) también está en desuso. Desde cuando la gente no dice: "I shall go" (yo iré)???*
*Y cómo se distingue "I shall go" (debo ir) de "I shall go" (yo iré) ???*


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## fenixpollo

pcplus said:


> y hace cuanto que se dejó de hablar así?? era sólo a principios de siglo???
> 
> entonces era sólo para el presente normal, y para las preguntas y negaciones era lo mismo???
> ---------------------------------aprovecho esto para decir
> 
> por cierto, el auxiliar "shall" para el futuro de la primera persona (singular y plural) también está en desuso. Desde cuando la gente no dice: "I shall go" (yo iré)???
> Y cómo se distingue "I shall go" (debo ir) de "I shall go" (yo iré) ???


 Lo de "shall" lo dejamos para otro hilo. Puedes buscar en el foro o en el diccionario para encontrar mucha información sobre "shall".

No estoy seguro cuándo se dejó de hablar de "thou", pero me imagino que en las colonias inglesas en América, fue a finales del siglo 17 o a principios del siglo 18.


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## pcplus

*vosotros como se decía?*

y luego hay otra manera de decir usted que es *ya* o* cha*-(creo que esta es moderna y coloquial)
-----
aquí he encontrado un texto que me resulta raro comprender porque también cambian los auxiliares

With the one side of his mouth *sayeth* *he*: 'Don't eat of *ye* fish, nor of other fruits of *ye* great seas.' and thence *doth* *he* say, '*Ye* seas art safe, and so enjoyeth thine fruits.' Mortals, Cthulhu *hast* always a soft spot for such hypocrites. Especially whence they sacrifice so many unto me, and those meats so soft and sweet.

***he encontrado esto en la wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou


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## fenixpollo

Se lees *todo* el hilo, pcplus, verás que puse el mismo enlace en post #5.

Tienes razón que una pronunciación moderna de "you" es el informal "ya".  Si quieres ver cómo "ya" se convierte en "cha" después de una "t", puedes ver los hilos don't cha y don't "cha".


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## expatriotlaguy

pcplus said:


> vosotros como se decía?
> 
> aquí he encontrado un texto que me resulta raro comprender porque también cambian los auxiliares
> 
> With the one side of his mouth sayeth he: 'Don't eat of ye fish, nor of other fruits of ye great seas.' and thence doth he say, 'Ye seas art safe, and so enjoyeth thine fruits.' Mortals, Cthulhu hast always a soft spot for such hypocrites. Especially whence they sacrifice so many unto me, and those meats so soft and sweet.
> 
> ***he encontrado esto en la wikipedia



The *y* in the above paragraph is not really a y, it is a thorn, *þ*, which stands for the sound th. Thus, the *ye* here is really the definite article, *the*, NOT the old second person plural pronoun ye. It's unfortunate that y has so often been substituted for þ.

More on thorn is available on wikipedia (I'm not allowed to post links).


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## PSIONMAN

expatriotlaguy said:


> More on thorn is available on wikipedia (I'm not allowed to post links).



But I can 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)


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## gothboy

muy interesante , yo tngo una pregunta mas, leyendo lyrics me encontre con este fragmento:

"And obedient to Commands
Thine eyes impose on me
Caressed by thine scathing hands
I fall, one more, for thee"

en este caso esa palabra seria "ti", Caigo una vez mas por ti?


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## Argónida

gothboy said:


> muy interesante , yo tngo una pregunta mas, leyendo lyrics me encontre con este fragmento:
> 
> "And obedient to Commands
> Thine eyes impose on me
> Caressed by thine scathing hands
> I fall, one more, for thee"
> 
> en este caso esa palabra seria "ti", Caigo una vez mas por ti?


 
Deduzco que sí, por lo que han explicado. Yo precisamente descubrí la existencia de "thee" en una canción de U2 (Who's gonna ride your wilde horses) que dice "... who's gonna fall at the foot of thee".

Y también tengo una pregunta: ¿la impresión que da ese "thee" es como la que nos produce a nosotros nuestro "vos" medieval? Es decir, se podría traducir como "¿Quien va a caer a los pies de vos/a vuestros pies"? (o algo así).


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## expatriotlaguy

gothboy said:


> muy interesante , yo tngo una pregunta mas, leyendo lyrics me encontre con este fragmento:
> 
> "And obedient to Commands
> Thine eyes impose on me
> Caressed by thine scathing hands
> I fall, one more, for thee"
> 
> en este caso esa palabra seria "ti", Caigo una vez mas por ti?



Sí, exactamente.  Creo que el línea ultima debe ser "I fall, on*c*e more, for thee".


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## Chris K

The Quaker usage was a little different, because they used "thee" exclusively and did not use "thou": "thee is welcome" instead of "thou art welcome."


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## Forero

Lots of things to point out here.

1. "Thou" is traditionally used with God because He is personal and because He is One.  Same in Spanish with "Tú".  "Thou" is also used in poetry to one's lover.
2. La frase "I respect thine opinions" de Fenixpollo demuestra otro fenómeno:  "thy" devuelve "thine" ante una vocal o "h"+vocal: "thine house".  Antiguamente, se puede decir lo mismo sobre "my" ("mine eyes").
3. "If thou hast any more questions, please asketh."  No está correcto porque "asketh" es indicativo (tercera persona) y lo que debe usarse aquí es "ask (thou) me, if it please thee".  Imperativo es igual en singular y plural, pero el pronombre, si se quiere usar, sigue el verbo imperativo (e.g. "go ye and teach").
4. "Ye" es más común como nominativo, "you" como acusativo/dativo, pero son parcialmente intercambiables.
5. Los Cuáqueros de Pennsylvania usan "thee is" como singular y también como plural.  Digo los tradicionales.  Hay Cuáqueros también que hablan como todo el mundo.


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## Jellby

Argónida said:


> Y también tengo una pregunta: ¿la impresión que da ese "thee" es como la que nos produce a nosotros nuestro "vos" medieval? Es decir, se podría traducir como "¿Quien va a caer a los pies de vos/a vuestros pies"? (o algo así).



Yo no soy anglohablante, pero creo que sí es algo parecido, quizá un poco más extraño y desconocido (en algún libro en inglés dicen que "hablan raro" los que usan esos pronombres). La principal diferencia, creo, es que mientras en español el "vos" es muestra de respeto (el antiguo, no el americano), el "thou" inglés era usado informalmente, como ahora usamos "tú".


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## jinti

fenixpollo said:


> From the wikipedia article I posted above (boldface mine):
> _Quakers__ formerly used thee as an ordinary pronoun; the stereotype has them saying thee for both nominative and accusative cases. This was started by __George Fox__ at the beginning of the Quaker movement as an attempt to preserve the egalitarian familiarity associated with the pronoun; it was not heard that way, and seemed instead to be an affected attempt at speaking like the King James Bible. *Most Quakers have abandoned this usage.* The dropping of the subjective case thou has also extended to their usage of the ye, the subjective 2nd person plural pronoun, which is a hypothesis of why "you" is missing its subjective case._


 


Forero said:


> 5. Los Cuáqueros de Pennsylvania usan "thee is" como singular y también como plural. Digo los tradicionales. Hay Cuáqueros también que hablan como todo el mundo.


OK, I'm coming awfully late to the discussion.... but I'm not sure either of these are right in this case.

_Thee_ was used by early Quakers -- and continues to be used by some modern Quakers, mostly Conservative -- for a couple reasons. 

One is that Quakers put a lot of emphasis on equality and refused to use a form of address meant to separate people according to status (_thee_ to lower status and _you_ to upper). 

_Thee_ was also used when speaking to one person -- regardless of rank or social status -- because _you_ was a plural form that crept over to singular usage as a form of flattery, much as _usted_ grew out of the plural _vuestra merced_. Quakers put a lot of emphasis on truthfulness, and so could not pretend that singular people were plural -- it was simply untrue. This is why, from all the Quakers I have ever listened to, I have never heard _thee_ for the plural, either -- it would be equally untrue. 

We do use _thee_ for both nominative and accusative cases (and oddly enough, we also use 3rd person verbs). However, that pattern of usage is paralleled in the modern use of _you_ by everyone, not just Quakers.

Originally:
_nominative _   thou / ye
_accusative_    thee / you

English in general dropped the nominatives and extended the use of the accusatives. Quakers are just holding onto the singular longer.


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## zafiro

Hi fenixpollo! 
It was really interesting to read all you wrote. I had no idea of all these English old forms. Anyway, I got lost with "_MJ_" (Sorry if the answer is too obvious.) 

_Thou art a really smart person, *MJ*, and I respect thine opinions. _

Thanks a lot!


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## chamyto

Creo que este tipo de pronombres sólo se usa en poesía, la biblia y poco más


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