# Religious Belief: U.S. and Europe



## tvdxer

It has come to the attention of many Americans, through the news media and like, that the U.S. is one of the developed world's most religious countries, with religious beliefs far more pervasive than in most of Europe, where measures such as church attendance and values surveys have shown a major trend towards secularization over the second half of the 20th century and now.  

What really drove this to mind was a large (and exceedingly interesting) survey, the Eurobarometer, which seems to have been conducted by the European Commission in early 2005.  You can download it, a mid-sized PDF file, here.  On page 9 you will find a question given to participants in the E.U. countries, as well as 7 non-E.U. European or partly European nations: "Which of these statements comes closest to your beliefs", with the possible responses

_"I believe there is a God"
"I believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"
"I don't believe there is any sort of spirit, life force, or God"
"I don't know"_

Only 52% of respondents in the EU25 said they believed in God, and a full 18% answered that they did not believe in any God or life-force.  Of course, this varies from country-to-country; over 80% of Maltese, Cypriots, Greeks, Portuguese, and Poles believe there is a God, while less than a quarter of Swedes, Estonians, and Czechs gave this answer.

On the other hand, in polling by Pew Research (source), 96% of Americans stated that they believed in a God or supreme being, which actually equals results of a similar survey done in 1965 (though those describing themselves as secular have increased

Church attendance, another indicator of religiosity often cited, is generally said to be around 35-45% (weekly) in the U.S. (although some suspect that many American respondents may be lying to the surveyer in this regard), while many European countries, especially Scandinavian ones, dip below 10%, even 5%, in this measure.  One source for this, using rather outdated statistics, is here.  The same reports that of the British, French, and German, only about 15% consider religion to be very important in their lives, compared to over half of Americans.  

Now for the questions: What makes the U.S. so comparatively religious, at least in word?  What accounts for the huge decline in religious practice and faith / increase in secularization in most of Europe (after all, Europe probably wasn't so much more secular in 1906), and why did the U.S. not experience this to same degree?


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## mansio

I have one answer: education. The more you know and the less you tend to believe by faith.


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## Fernando

Yeah. That is why Albania was an atheist country.


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## danielfranco

mansio said:
			
		

> I have one answer: education.


 
I'm sorry, I'm just too slow to get this right...
Is the meaning of this answer that all the people in Europe - in general - are better educated or have had a superior education than the Americans, and as a result it accounts for a higher percentage of believers in a nation?
And the decline in faith in Europe is generally an inverse relationship to the level of education of its inhabitants?
That's an interesting perspective.
I thought that Americans were just used to fundamentalism, since it was one of the original motivations of the first European immigrantions to the American continent.
Go figure.


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## maxiogee

Throughout history Gods have lived in our Dark Places.
When we learn about those places we cease to need the Gods we previously associated with them.
Who today in 'The West' would even think of offering a prayer to a God of Rain, or making a sacrifice to a God of Agriculture?
We don't, because we know how those things work.
Gods are for the credulous.

As to a Supreme Being.
I think one needs to clarify the concept. Many people see the word "God" and think of a being which has a specific interest in them. Which acts on and in their lives.
Others see the word to mean a Creator - a non-active player in the affairs of earth.

I go with the second.

I have tried to encapsulate my attitude to 'religious' people in a few lines.

Like grains of sand upon a beach, upon a grain of sand
Which whirls across the greater beach of countless, endless size.
We stand upon our grain of sand and think ourselves important!


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## sandzilg

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I'm just too slow to get this right...
> Is the meaning of this answer that all the people in Europe - in general - are better educated or have had a superior education than the Americans, and as a result it accounts for a higher percentage of believers in a nation?
> And the decline in faith in Europe is generally an inverse relationship to the level of education of its inhabitants?
> That's an interesting perspective.
> I thought that Americans were just used to fundamentalism, since it was one of the original motivations of the first European immigrantions to the American continent.
> Go figure.



Precisely. That would be the basis for it, and it hasn´t been that long ago, after all, with history in perspective. But it is also very true that having had a poor education or none at all is directly proportional to believing in some sort of god or having religion as the basis in life. I am not expressing an opinion here but a fact when I say that religious fanatics (and not that fanatic, all kinds of preachers) prey on uneducated people. 
Of course, then you have Tom Cruise. But then again, he is very proud of his self-teaching methods.


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## fenixpollo

So America is an uneducated Dark Place.  Got it.  

Many, many Americans (including many of the original settlers) immigrated to this land for the specific reason of finding religious freedom.  Because of that or in addition to that, most Americans think in terms of absolutes -- black and white, right and wrong, with us or against us, etc. -- an attitude which lends itself well to exclusionist religions.


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## sandzilg

Fenixpollo, that is not what I meant! Hey, I live in the US, I married a US citizen, and among my friends are some of the most intelligent people I've ever come across!!! And I've been to many many places... 

But I do agree that many Americans came here escaping persecution, for religious reasons. It is also true that the English puritans were considered in the UK what we would call today a sect. And I am not the one who says that.  There are a lot of people in this country who still hold on to those beliefs, especially in the Midwest and parts of the South. The US is a huge country, and that's a LOT of people we're talking about!


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## Jana337

A couple of random thoughts/hypotheses:

The U.S. religious market is much more active than the European one - with beneficial impacts on the believers: American religious groups cater to the spiritual needs of people much better than European ones. When they don't, they will experience an outflow of "customers" sooner or later. Unlike U.S. religions that are usually firmly embedded in their communities, European churches are very hierarchical, rigid and not very inspiring.

With a decent degree of precision, you can divide Europe into areas dominated by a particular religion. The same would be harder for the US - here's a map gallery of religions in the U.S. As you see, states like Utah are rather an exception to the rule. Religions overlap on this side of the pond.

Formerly, when religious freedom was an unknown concept, your denomination was determined by your place of birth (speaking about Europe, obviously). Nowadays, your choice is basically between being an atheist/agnostic and belonging to the denomination that is common where you live. Conversions are rather rare. 


> “They (_Latino immigrants in the U.S._) try out religious pluralism for a while, then decide they          don’t like it and go back _(to Catholicism)_,” he said. “There’s a lot          of switching.” Source


 Switching and experimenting - and without a stigma? Quite unthinkable in Europe. Religions seem to take a continual swelling of their ranks for granted, purely on geographical grounds. They exert little effort to attract new people. Rather, they preach about decadence and an unsufficient vertical dimension of our lives as secularization marches forward.

Now I am curious how many people will want to smash me for speaking about a market of religions. 

Jana


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## tvdxer

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I'm just too slow to get this right...
> Is the meaning of this answer that all the people in Europe - in general - are better educated or have had a superior education than the Americans, and as a result it accounts for a higher percentage of believers in a nation?
> And the decline in faith in Europe is generally an inverse relationship to the level of education of its inhabitants?
> That's an interesting perspective.



I think the gap for belief in God between Americans of varying educational levels is similar to that of Europe, but university-educated Americans are still far more likely to believe in God and be religious than university-educated Europeans.



> I thought that Americans were just used to fundamentalism, since it was one of the original motivations of the first European immigrantions to the American continent.
> Go figure.



That was _some_ of the first European immigrations.  Puritans (very strict Christians) and Quakers (not so much strict as different) were among the early settlers, but many more came here for completely secular reasons.


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## tvdxer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> A couple of random thoughts/hypotheses:
> 
> The U.S. religious market is much more active than the European one - with beneficial impacts on the believers: American religious groups cater to the spiritual needs of people much better than European ones. When they don't, they will experience an outflow of "customers" sooner or later. Unlike U.S. religions that are usually firmly embedded in their communities, European churches are very hierarchical, rigid and not very inspiring.
> 
> With a decent degree of precision, you can divide Europe into areas dominated by a particular religion. The same would be harder for the US - here's a map gallery of religions in the U.S. As you see, states like Utah are rather an exception to the rule. Religions overlap on this side of the pond.
> 
> Formerly, when religious freedom was an unknown concept, your denomination was determined by your place of birth (speaking about Europe, obviously). Nowadays, your choice is basically between being an atheist/agnostic and belonging to the denomination that is common where you live. Conversions are rather rare.
> 
> Switching and experimenting - and without a stigma? Quite unthinkable in Europe. Religions seem to take a continual swelling of their ranks for granted, purely on geographical grounds. They exert little effort to attract new people. Rather, they preach about decadence and an unsufficient vertical dimension of our lives.
> 
> Now I am curious how many people will want to smash me for speaking about a market of religions.
> 
> Jana


I'm a religious person and I certainly _won't_ smash you for speaking of a "market of religions".  While religion certainly is far more valuable and important than physical goods, I do think this might be part of the reason religious belief remains so strong in the U.S.  When the ancestors of most Americans came here (and note that most Americans are _not_ descended from the Puritans, etc.), which in my case was a little before the turn of the century, they built churches and chapels that acted not only as houses of worship but also as places to congregate as an ethnic community.  But even then...by the time when secularization really got its grip, in the 1960's and 70's, most middle-aged Americans traced their heritage here back at least two or three generations, and were completely assimilated into the culture, probably often even to the point of hardly recognizing their ancestry.  So I think this may be part of the explanation, but certainly not all.

Also, thanks a million for the link.  Very interesting.


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## cuchuflete

I live in a tiny village appended to a town of about 1500 people.
There are at very least ten different churches. The neighboring towns have dozens more churches. There are so many sects or groups or religions or whatever you may choose to call them, that no one or two predominate. In much of the US that is the case.

So here is an unsubstantiated theory: When there is total religious freedom, not only by law but by custom, it's less of a black and white choice. In much of Europe, one either accepts the dominant local religion, for better and for worse, or rejects it or leaves it alone. Wholehearted acceptance of any religion, if the choice is limited to yes and no, is like deciding whether to patronize Wal-mart or the many little shops in one's community--it's a stark choice between clearly opposing life styles.
By contrast, in the US one may sample the wares of different purveyors, come and go, drop in and out, with not too much pressure to conform. That makes it easier for many people not to leave a single religious choice to the side.

Also, TVdxer says his source tells us that about 50% of Americans think religion is important, yet a smaller percentage attend church. Of those who claim to attend, some may be lying. Of those who actually do attend, my experience says that many go for social reasons, or out of family habit, and bring little dedication with them.
So, prepare to throw mud, maybe Europeans who attend church do so more honestly, out of faith and conviction, and those who eschew church are likewise honest. Americans...or some large number of them, attend without deep belief or passion. 

Someone pointed out the role of immigrants' churches as meetings halls for social, ethnic groups.  That is certainly true.
Also true is that as new waves of immigrants assimilate into the broader society, and physically move from their original enclaves, they are less apt to continue needing a church for other than religious reasons. 

Finally, note the huge statistical difference between those Americans who accept the idea of a higher power, creator, force, god, or whatever name tag you like, and those who attend religious ceremonies. Acceptance of mankind as something less than the greatest force in the universe absolutely does not require any sort of religious affiliation. 

When I pray and meditate, my higher power assures me that
religion is optional.  By whatever means, most Europeans seem to have received the same message.   

The statistics, if carefully considered, show that 52% of Europeans believe in God, and I assume some additional large percentage believe in some power differently named. So Europe also has a very large discrepancy between believers and church-goers.


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## Outsider

tvdxer said:
			
		

> Now for the questions: What makes the U.S. so comparatively religious, at least in word?  What accounts for the huge decline in religious practice and faith / increase in secularization in most of Europe (after all, Europe probably wasn't so much more secular in 1906), and why did the U.S. not experience this to same degree?


Interesting questions; I've wondered about them sometimes.

I don't know the answer, and there's probably more than one cause. Although I do not think education explains the discrepancy between the U.S. and Europe, there seems to be an undeniable correlation between the quality of the education system and the prevalence of atheism _within_ Europe.

Perhaps the extra-competitive life style of Americans makes them hungrier for a higher power to give them some emotional comfort at the end of the day. 

On the European side, I have a theory that the Holocaust and fascism had something to do with the decline of religiousness. It wasn't noticeable at first; there's always some inertia in social change. But I get the feeling that a European of today who looks back on the history of the 20th century can't help question himself about those events. Many conclude that they simply cannot accept a God who sided with people like Hitler and Franco. (Or whose representatives on this Earth sided with them, which amounts to the same.)


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## mansio

People from ancient times are supposed to be more religious than us. They were as barbarians as the XXth century Nazis. Catholics and Protestants used to slaughter and torture each other in France in the XVth century.


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## natasha2000

Jana337 said:
			
		

> A couple of random thoughts/hypotheses:
> 
> The U.S. religious market is much more active than the European one - with beneficial impacts on the believers: American religious groups cater to the spiritual needs of people much better than European ones. When they don't, they will experience an outflow of "customers" sooner or later. Unlike U.S. religions that are usually firmly embedded in their communities, European churches are very hierarchical, rigid and not very inspiring.
> 
> With a decent degree of precision, you can divide Europe into areas dominated by a particular religion. The same would be harder for the US - here's a map gallery of religions in the U.S. As you see, states like Utah are rather an exception to the rule. Religions overlap on this side of the pond.
> 
> Formerly, when religious freedom was an unknown concept, your denomination was determined by your place of birth (speaking about Europe, obviously). Nowadays, your choice is basically between being an atheist/agnostic and belonging to the denomination that is common where you live. Conversions are rather rare.
> Switching and experimenting - and without a stigma? Quite unthinkable in Europe. Religions seem to take a continual swelling of their ranks for granted, purely on geographical grounds. They exert little effort to attract new people. Rather, they preach about decadence and an unsufficient vertical dimension of our lives as secularization marches forward.
> 
> Now I am curious how many people will want to smash me for speaking about a market of religions.
> 
> Jana


 
From what you've said, it could be said then that US Americans take the religion and pertaining to one religion more loosely and with less seriousness than Europeans. Europeans are or religious or not, and if they are, than it is a religion of their forefathers. At least I have never heard that someone changed its religion because they only wanted to. 

Or maybe, US Americans are restless spirits, who are still in serch for the "right" religion. So they go on experimenting until they come accross the "religion of their lives".... 


Anyway, I do agree with you... for sure, there is a much bigger "religions" market in US than in Europe...


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> On the European side, I have a theory that the Holocaust and fascism had something to do with the decline of religiousness. It wasn't noticeable at first; there's always some inertia in social change. But I get the feeling that a European of today who looks back on the history of the 20th century can't help question himself about those events. Many conclude that they simply cannot accept a God who sided with people like Hitler and Franco. (Or whose representatives on this Earth sided with them, which amounts to the same.)


 
At least from my point of view, I do agree, a 100%. Sadly, I do not have to turn much back into the history and go to Hitler and Franco (You forgot Mussolini), only some 15 years back to the territory of my own country and to see the barbarities that were done IN THE NAME OF GOD...! How disgusting, which God would ask for such things? And if there is any God who would do that, He certainly does not deserve that I believe in Him....

Besides, no God will help me when I need help but me, myself and I  

The funny thing is that there is a contradictory thing in Americans. They believe both in a self-made man and God... Interesting...


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Sadly, I do not have to turn much back into the history and go to Hitler and Franco (You forgot Mussolini)


I just named two well-known examples. There were plenty more.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> I just named two well-known examples. There were plenty more.


 
It was a joke remark, since the three of them came to power more or less at the same time. Nothing more. I am sure you are aware of many other examples.


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## Outsider

I figured as much. I just didn't want other readers to get the wrong impression.


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## cuchuflete

Once the dust has settled, and we either do or do not come to a conclusion as to whether Americans are really more religious, or just say they attend church more, that will leave us with the corollary question:

Outside of church, do Americans behave more in accord with their proclaimed religious beliefs than any other group?  I've never seen any evidence to suggest that.  Therefore I wonder what difference it makes that Americans declare their belief in some sort of god, and spend time in religious ceremonies.
Are rates of theft, adultery, extortion, murder, gossip, jaywalking and traffic violations substantially different in countries with higher and lower church attendence?  Are American churchgoers typically more obese than non-churchgoing Europeans? Are they kinder? Do they have more clergy convicted of crimes? Do they feed their pets a better diet?

In short, if Americans go to church in greater numbers and/or percentages, what does it matter?


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## sandzilg

In short, if Americans go to church in greater numbers and/or percentages, what does it matter?[/quote]

True. I'd certainly say it doesn't make people better. Sometimes, it makes them more intolerant.
But it does matter when people with huge amounts of power use religion as a political weapon. And when they impose THEIR truth as THE ONLY truth. And when they plant the seed of fear in people so they will feel hopeless, therefore incredibly vulnerable, losing their ability to reason by themselves. 
We all know the consequences, and it doesn't look pretty.


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Once the dust has settled, and we either do or do not come to a conclusion as to whether Americans are really more religious, or just say they attend church more, that will leave us with the corollary question:
> 
> Outside of church, do Americans behave more in accord with their proclaimed religious beliefs than any other group?  I've never seen any evidence to suggest that.  Therefore I wonder what difference it makes that Americans declare their belief in some sort of god, and spend time in religious ceremonies.
> Are rates of theft, adultery, extortion, murder, gossip, jaywalking and traffic violations substantially different in countries with higher and lower church attendence?  Are American churchgoers typically more obese than non-churchgoing Europeans? Are they kinder? Do they have more clergy convicted of crimes? Do they feed their pets a better diet?
> 
> In short, if Americans go to church in greater numbers and/or percentages, what does it matter?



I think it matters a great deal politically. On the one hand, churches were the rock on which the Civil Rights movement was built. But religion, and cults in general, can be the launching grounds of social movements that I'm sure most Americans are well aquainted with.


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## Fernando

Yes, indeed. The peoples who have got rid of religion are free-minded and fear-free, strong and powered. As an example, US is a dictatorial place, while North Korea...mmm, not...let me think... China! No, China, no. I meant Cambodja... Well, nevermind, religion is bad, and religious people are all bigots who burn the good nice atheists, such as Stalin...no, shit!


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## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> Yes, indeed. The peoples who have got rid of religion are free-minded and fear-free, strong and powered. As an example, US is a dictatorial place, while North Korea...mmm, not...let me think... China! No, China, no. I meant Cambodja... Well, nevermind, religion is bad, and religious people are all bigots who burn the good nice atheists, such as Stalin...no, shit!



I would n't say that in N Korea, China, and Cambodia they got rid of religion. They just started worshiping human beings. The US has the great advantage that no one denomination is overwhelming. In that sense, the symbolic theocratic elements in government life, God is on our money, our pledges, our courts, and even our president has chats with him and asks him to bless us when he has chats with us, is not as disturbing to me as it would be if we had a large Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster denomination in this country.

But we do talk about God alot here. Can you imagine God on the Euro? Could you imagine Zapatero or Chirac asking God to bless the Spanish or the French? Can you imagine "In God we Trust" in a European courtroom? 

Is it not risible?


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## Fernando

My post was not intended as an answer to yours but to sandzilg. 



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I would n't say that in N Korea, China, and Cambodia they got rid of religion. They just started worshiping human beings.


 I name that "worshipping of human beings", not religion. No God nor spirits involved. Well, maybe just whisky.




			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> But we do talk about God alot here. Can you imagine God on the Euro? Could you imagine Zapatero or Chirac asking God to bless the Spanish or the French? Can you imagine "In God we Trust" in a European courtroom? Is it not risible?



Can you imagine the Spanish Parliament declaring the "big apes" as having human rights?. That's risible. And happened yesterday.

In the euro we have:

- 12 stars ¿? 
- Several kings (very rational indeed!). For the record I am monarchist from time to time.
- Several swans.
- A young girl with a red hat.

I think you Americans prefer God to stay, considering the alternatives.


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## Outsider

tvdxer said:
			
		

> Only 52% of respondents in the EU25 said they believed in God, and a full 18% answered that they did not believe in any God or life-force.  Of course, this varies from country-to-country [...]


In a comparison between Europe and the U.S., there's something else you should take into account. Many countries in Eastern Europe were under communist rule for about half a century. I realised a while ago that the communists had considerable success in fighting religion.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Yes, indeed. The peoples who have got rid of religion are free-minded and fear-free, strong and powered. As an example, US is a dictatorial place, while North Korea...mmm, not...let me think... China! No, China, no. I meant Cambodja... Well, nevermind, religion is bad, and religious people are all bigots who burn the good nice atheists, such as Stalin...no, shit!


No one has claimed that a random atheist will be a better person than a random Christian.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Can you imagine God on the Euro? Could you imagine Zapatero or Chirac asking God to bless the Spanish or the French? Can you imagine "In God we Trust" in a European courtroom?
> 
> Is it not risible?


When the European Constitution was being discussed, I remember certain groups lobbying to have the 'Christian foundations of Europe' written into it.

P.S. Sorry, the above was not well explained. I meant to say that they wanted the Constitution to _state_ that European civilization _had_ Christian foundations, not that they wanted to put the Ten Commandments in it, or anything like that.


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## frenchtranslater

maxiogee said:
			
		

> As to a Supreme Being.
> I think one needs to clarify the concept. Many people see the word "God" and think of a being which has a specific interest in them. Which acts on and in their lives.
> Others see the word to mean a Creator - a non-active player in the affairs of earth.
> 
> I go with the second.
> 
> I have tried to encapsulate my attitude to 'religious' people in a few lines.
> quote]
> 
> I have been studying the bible for many years, I am not religious, but I believe that if one book makes so much trrouble there might be a reason to study it. The first twenty pages of the bible explain the creation. Many of you, non-hebrew speakers, are misled but what bible mean, so as marketing is very easy to make in English, because the bible was not translated properly. The bible implies in hebrew, that "God" made once his work and by giving Adam the honor to chose the name of the animals, "God" metaphorically and symbolically gave Adam and the human race, the reign of Earth, and that "God" himself doesn't want anymore to interupt, earth course of action (one of the reasons why the Talmud believes why "God" made Shabbat a holly day). The reason I think that the U.S. is more religius than Europe is because Europeans are aware that there are mistranslations in the Bible (Americans don't seem to have learned anything from Salem, btw, there was a mistranslation where it said that people should kill witches). One of the reason of this awarness is that in European Universities, theology and philsophy courses are given, which let the young asults realise many things about religion than Americans.


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## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> I think you Americans prefer God to stay, considering the alternatives.


My very personal opinion is "al Cesar lo que es del Cesar". Jesus would have had a harder time with that parable if "In Gods We Trust" were on those Roman coins. But this country never really intended to keep God out of politics just one particular church and I think it's done a pretty decent job at that (we don't have a national church and I like that). 

The problem countries have anytime there is a very large majority is that the minorities tend to feel left out. Do I care that people say I live in one nation under a God I don't believe in? Do I care I have to stand up and put my hand on my chest and pretend I'm saying it and believing it before every public concert, little-league baseball game, etc. because I will appear to be a subversive-terroristlover-communist if I don't? Perhaps not. If it's just me and my anarchist, God-hating, baby-eating, Satan-worshiping, friends I don't. If I'm at the game with my conservative boss I play along. It's cultish and a good example of mob rule.

I live in a country that loves Elvis, Apple pie, baseball, and Jesus but that's something I have grown to live with and I'm not moving anywhere just because the president chats with God whenever he has to make an important decision. But I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. It does.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> When the European Constitution was being discussed, I remember certain groups lobbying to have the 'Christian foundations of Europe' written into it.



Yes but who? Let me guess. Was it the Jean-Marie Le Pen crowd? Certain groups *here *would like to put a swatstika on the American flag but the "issue" here is that the "In God We Trust" crowd is in the mainstream of politics and have been in power for a very long time. 

Ike put *God *into the pledge of allegiance and I wouldn't call Eisenhower a right-wing racist lunatic. In fact, he was quite progressive in that respect. It was under Ike that the military was de-segregated.


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## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> On the European side, I have a theory that the Holocaust and fascism had something to do with the decline of religiousness. It wasn't noticeable at first; there's always some inertia in social change. But I get the feeling that a European of today who looks back on the history of the 20th century can't help question himself about those events. Many conclude that they simply cannot accept a God who sided with people like Hitler and Franco. (Or whose representatives on this Earth sided with them, which amounts to the same.)


I don't know the answer to the question asked, but I feel that you might well be on to something here. The world wars affected all European countries deeply - albeit in different ways. For my own country it was clear that social norms had been turned on their heads. The English world was very different before and after the 2nd world war. The rigid class system was broken, women were becoming empowered. And imagine what many of those people had been through and seen (no more than many other countries of course). I imagine it was a time for questioning all previous assumptions and a time of upheaval generally.

In support of Cuchuflete's description of Europe being more homogenous in the religions found in a certain place - I can say this: I was 14 before I knowingly met a Catholic (although I must have met them before without knowing) when a classmate mentioned he was catholic once. I remember being so surprised (!) and I was at university before I knowingly met a Jew (I remember being fascinated that you wouldn't know from looking at them!(I don't know what I expected) ) I know that little story doesn't reflect too well on me, but I don't mind sharing it since I think it goes to show the spread of religions other than protestantism I had come across living my childhood in the home counties near London!


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## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> On the European side, I have a theory that the Holocaust and fascism had something to do with the decline of religiousness. It wasn't noticeable at first; there's always some inertia in social change. But I get the feeling that a European of today who looks back on the history of the 20th century can't help question himself about those events. Many conclude that they simply cannot accept a God who sided with people like Hitler and Franco. (Or whose representatives on this Earth sided with them, which amounts to the same.)



Er... I have noticed this post of Outsider and I am a bit upset. Exactly why God "sided" Hitler? As far as I remember, Hitler was not exactly a devote Christian and he was overcome by the join forces of an atheist movement (Russia-Soviet Union) and US+UK. I assume US was not much more or less religious thanm today.

Meanwhile he overcame mostly Catholic France and totally Catholic Poland and his main enemies were the Jews (not exactly, atheists).

So, I can hardly believe this is the explanation of the difference among Europe and US.


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## timpeac

Yes - what I meant was the idea that the world war had an impact on this issue, not necessarily the specifics that Outsider gave - sorry for any confusion.


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## Outsider

Fernando said:
			
		

> Er... I have noticed this post of Outsider and I am a bit upset. Exactly why God "sided" Hitler?


I did not write that phrase as a statement of fact, only as an opinion that some Europeans have. Needless to say, other Europeans are of the opinion that Hitler and Christianity had nothing in common.


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## Fernando

Your point was clear, timpeac, I was writing against Outsider's thesis.

I have none, but maybe some of you have a point:

- In countries where religion had much importance in civil issues anti-clericalism derived in anti-God=atheism. That is, opposition to statu quo almost implied to be a religious offender

Anyway, US is free from another "religion", called communism, which has been a major force in Europe during 80 years and still have some "children" quite alive nowadays. I suspect there is a relation.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> I did not write that phrase as a statement of fact, only as an opinion that some Europeans have. Needless to say, other Europeans are of the opinion that Hitler and Christianity had nothing in common.



Then, agreed. Please, count me in the 2nd group.

Of course, Franco and Croatian leaders supported in Christianity, but I doubt very much this fact would have such an overwhelming influence.


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## cuchuflete

More grist for the mill...still supposition, without much --if any--factual evidence...

In the first half of the last century, many European countries were either monarchies, with strong alliances between a state church and the royals, or were, like Spain, former monarchies. In the case of Spain, religious neutrality was uncommon. One was generally either religious or anti-clerical.

Then came the second world war, and the decline of royalty to either a figurehead position, or in some cases dear to the heart of Timpeac, a laughingstock. Old authority figures associated with religion lost their aura of leadership. In Spain it came later, and in an ambiguous way, as Franco's alliance with a church was strong.

This may all cast a little light on the decline of religion in Europe, but the US is entirely different. There has never been a state religion, although most presidents are at least nominally Christian, often for electoral reasons only. Perhaps it's that there is more inertia, socially, in the role of religion in the US. There has been no major upheaval to lead people to question their historical habits. The anti-communist (hence anti-atheist) hysteria of the 1950s reinforced the role of religion, and the anti-Vietnam War movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s was confined to a single generation, mine, that questioned all authority, including religion.
After that, things returned to "normal".


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## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> Anyway, US is free from another "religion", called communism, which has been a major force in Europe during 80 years and still have some "children" quite alive nowadays. I suspect there is a relation.


I share your suspicion. Part of it is that the government had a list and checked it twice. Being a communist in the US has not always been the safest thing to do if you wanted the government out of your life (and phone line). We've had several red scares and witch hunts. But then again, two messainic religions (one where God is going to send another Jesus and another where History is going to send another Lenin) aren't very compatible. They are too similar to co-exist. For one, the explanation to everything is God and to the other, it's class-struggle.


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## Jana337

Outsider said:
			
		

> In a comparison between Europe and the U.S., there's something else you should take into account. Many countries in Eastern Europe were under communist rule for about half a century. I realised a while ago that the communists had considerable success in fighting religion.


But where?

If anything, Marxism had considerable success in fighting religion in _Western_ Europe. My country is one of the most atheist countries in the world, but it is simply faithful to its pre-communist atheist tradition. On the other hand, if the role of religion in Poland was substantially diminished by the communists, I would be interested to know what the country would be like if it hadn't experienced the communist rule.

However surprising it might be for some, 40 years of repression is not enough to obliterate a long-standing cultural heritage.

Jana


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## Fernando

To Residente Calle 13:Yes, but consider in Europe in Europe the "red scares" have been quite more violent than in US. 

You are right: The most alike to religion, specially Catholicism, is Communism.

Prophet: Jesus-Marx
Book: Bible-Capital
Explanation for all: God-Class struggle
Organization: Cat. Church-Communist Party
etc.


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## Outsider

Jana337 said:
			
		

> But where?
> 
> If anything, Marxism had considerable success in fighting religion in _Western_ Europe. My country is one of the most atheist countries in the world, but it is simply faithful to its pre-communist atheist tradition. On the other hand, if the role of religion in Poland was substantially diminished by the communists, I would be interested to know what the country would be like if it hadn't experienced the communist rule.


Scrolling down this page you will find a list of the 50 countries with the highest rates of atheism/agnosticism/non-belief in God. Many ex-communist states are in it, and several are near the top.

Poland is an exception to the general pattern.

P.S. Compare also the estimated rates of Western Germany with those of Eastern Germany.


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## fenixpollo

So, according to this article, the U.S. has a *high* number of non-believers?  That means that the U.S. has more in common with atheist Europe than it would appear.


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## Outsider

All is relative. 
It's among the 50 countries with the highest rates, but at the bottom of the list (nr. 44), with only 3 to 9%.


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## fenixpollo

"only" 3 to 9 percent -- it probably sounds like a lot of atheists if you are one of the believers, but for the atheists, it probably seems like a very small company.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> Scrolling down this page you will find a list of the 50 countries with the highest rates of atheism/agnosticism/non-belief in God. Many ex-communist states are in it, and several are near the top.
> 
> Poland is an exception to the general pattern.
> 
> P.S. Compare also the estimated rates of Western Germany with those of Eastern Germany.


 

Well, There are 9 ex-communist countries in the list, and there are four countries that don't even reach more than 10% of population that don't believe in God, and they are all but one (Croatia 7%) the countries with the *most severe communists dictatorship* - Poland,(3%), Rumania (4%) and Albania (8%). One country that does not go over 20% - Slovakia (17%), three that don't go over 35% - Hungary (32%) Bulgaria (34%), And Slovenia (35%). And only one, Czech Republic, that goes over half of the population (61%). There is not very big difference if we compare it with Western countries - traditionaly southern and mostly catholic countries are more religious, and northern and protestant are less religious.

You also should take into account as an interesting data that Slovenia and Croatia were under the same regime (which was pretty religious tolerant), yet the number of non-believers is very different - Croatia with only 7% and Slovenia with 35%. It is also very interesting that Serbia (which is not included in this poll, and I am sorry for this, because it intrigues me to know the exact percentage) being under the same regime during more than 50 years, became all of a sudden very religious, once the communism disaapeared. Until 90' nobody belived in God. All of a sudden, after 1989 many Serbs became believers and church-goers (although I would say that in this they are like US - many goers but very few real believers , but then I cannot claim it, since this opinion is based only on my impression).

Also, I would note that Rumanian Chauschesku regime was one of the most inhuman regimes, people lived in absolute poverty and in human fear, yet, they have only 4% of population who is not religous... It seems the more pressure communist put, people became more religious. 

So, I wouldn't say that communism had a bigger influence in non-religiousness of ex-communist countries.


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## natasha2000

Then, there's Cuba, with only 7% of non-believers, and Cuba has been suffering the economical embargo for more than 50 years bacause of communisim!!! Isn't that a little bit wierd?


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Well, There are 9 ex-communist countries in the list [...]


I count:

- 18 1/2 former communist countries among the top 50.
- plus 4 that are still communist, Cuba, China, North Korea, and Vietnam.

I had to check whether Vietnam was still communist in the CIA World Fact Book. I didn't check any of the others, but if they still are communist I think that adds to my point (or, at best, makes the data about them less reliable). Perhaps you were thinking only of European former communist states...

As for the embargo on Cuba, I suppose you can't throw all of the blame for it on communism.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> I count:
> 
> - 18 1/2 former communist countries among the top 50.
> - plus 4 that are still communist, Cuba, China, North Korea, and Vietnam.
> 
> I was counting only European countries, since the question is religiousness in Europe/US. OK, I didn't include Russia and ex -soviet republics, maybe the picture would change a little then.
> 
> I had to check whether Vietnam was still communist in the CIA World Fact Book. I didn't check any of the others, but if they still are communist I think that adds to my point (or, at best, makes the data about them less reliable). Perhaps you were thinking only of European former communist states...
> 
> As for the embargo on Cuba, I suppose you can't throw all of the blame for it on communism.
> Of course not, if you ask me for my opinion I think there is more to blame US foreign policy than communism for such a cruel embargo that nowadays, doesn't even have any sense at all. Never had, as a matter of fact. My pointing out to Cuba here was only in relation to the religion-comunism relationship, nothing more.


 
And, everything is, as you said, relative. Everything depends on how you look on things.
Maybe for someone 30% of non-religious people in one country is much. For me, it is not. And the country with less than 10% of non-religious population, for me, is a very religious country. Therefore, if these are the top 50 no-religious countries in the world, I would say the world is still VERY religious in the 21st centrury, which is incredible, for me.
But then, this is only my personal opinion...


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## tvdxer

Some ideas:

Spain - Franco's repressive regime turns many people off to the church.  The end of it causes _la movida_, which helps to secularize society.

France - Long atheist tradition beginning with the French Revolution.  Religion rebounded after it, but once again felt the pain of the 60's, with the student riots, etc.

Poland - Religion survives as a unifying force during the years of communist cultural repression.  Emerges strong when the country becomes democratic, and having Pope John Paul II certainly helped.

Czech Republic - They say the anti-religious tradition goes back to the repulsion of the "Holy Roman Empire" (which, as one once said, was neither holy nor Roman  ).  I don't know if that accounts for the current situation, though.

Germany - According to others, remains very religious in Bavaria.


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## Fernando

tvdxer said:
			
		

> Spain - Franco's repressive regime turns many people off to the church.  The end of it causes _la movida_, which helps to secularize society..


You are right, but la movida had a very limited influence. You should better refer to "la transición".



			
				tvdxer said:
			
		

> "Holy Roman Empire" (which, as one once said, was neither holy nor Roman


 ...nor an Empire.


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## heidita

I have been living in Spain for more than 30 years and learned to love the country and its customs dearly.

I do think though that there are customs soooooo ancient that they should be done away with. 

I have seen that people go to church "just to be seen" at church, not for their religious believes. When youngsters celebrate their Holy Communion all parents celebrate the day but then they never go to church again afterwards. 

My personal experience was rough, as the Spanish Catholic church *obliges* you to get a so called "dispensa" (permission) to marry a non catholic person (I am a protestant, that's why I am always protesting, I suppose) if you want a church wedding.  So my husband had to get this dispensa . We needed two witnesses to vouch for us and then the "obispado" gave my husband permission to marry. 

But , even worse, we had to do a so called *"premarital course*", two weeks of telling the people how to behave, what to do, what not to do...... I did not accept to do any kind of course at the age of 33 and only when my husband convinced the priest and NOT do the course, could we finally get married in the beautiful "Iglesia de Santa Mónica " in Madrid. The course still exists and the church obliges you to do it (with really very, very few exceptions), as it was done by one of my dear students, the first of all of them to get married, last year, and not only did *he and his bride have to assist but also his parents*. I do think that this seems like the stone ages.

Well, I wonder if their is anything similar in your country and do you agree with these archaic customs?


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## heidita

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Once the dust has settled, and we either do or do not come to a conclusion as to whether Americans are really more religious, or just say they attend church more, that will leave us with the corollary question:
> 
> Outside of church, do Americans behave more in accord with their proclaimed religious beliefs than any other group? I've never seen any evidence to suggest that. Therefore I wonder what difference it makes that Americans declare their belief in some sort of god, and spend time in religious ceremonies.
> Are rates of theft, adultery, extortion, murder, gossip, jaywalking and traffic violations substantially different in countries with higher and lower church attendence? Are American churchgoers typically more obese than non-churchgoing Europeans? Are they kinder? Do they have more clergy convicted of crimes? Do they feed their pets a better diet?
> 
> In short, if Americans go to church in greater numbers and/or percentages, what does it matter?


 
I have just read this interesting post of yours, and do think that there is great fundament in it. What does it matter that they SAY that they belief if they do not behave accordingly?

In Spain as a strongly catholic country there must be a great amount of percentage of church goers and believers. Even students of mine, 16 to 26 year old, *do* go to church and find it very normal. We have had discussions about the topic and they DO believe that religious education is important or has been so for them.

I also think that one of the ways you can see these believes are the relationships the Spanish people still have family wise. Even though there are cases where the elders are abandoned and live alone and lonely this is not the usual case. Most of the elders I know live with their daughters and families and I think that this has a lot to do with the religious education the people receive when they are young.


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## Fernando

I think this is quite off-topic, but I completely disagree. You have two options:

1) To marry according a catholic wedding.

2) Otherwise (to marry according any other religion, civil system or just living together.

If (1) you have to respect the rules, that are thought (quite obviously) for catholic-catholic spouses. It is not mandatory. The only forbidden thing is to marry an atheist (why an atheist would like to marry in a Catholic Church?).

It is quite strange to me you have to do an exam and to show an ability for anything in this life except for:

- Committing for all your life.
- Producing a new human being.

I would say a premarital course is not such a big problem.

Mods, feel free to kill this post.


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## parodi

Even though I am not religious myself I am glad that other Americans are religious. The USA was founded upon what was called "the natural rights of man" during the framing of our constitution in the late 1700's.  Other federalists identified these rights as "God given."

If our rights of freedom of speech, assembly, religion, etc are granted by a creator it means that these rights cannot be taken away by humans.  In totalitarian states, rights are granted by the politburo to favored citizens and those rights can be taken away by the same men. 

If you believe in the inalienable right of every person to be free, perhaps you could consider that religion--or "authority from a higher plane"-- is the only way to guarantee those rights beyond the whims of kings, mullahs, imams, and dictators.


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## cuchuflete

Heidita,
 We obviously agree on your first point.  On your last one, I'm not so sure.  I see a coincidence, in Spain, of close family ties and religious education.  I'm not sure if that coincidence implies causality.  I think people tend to follow the examples they grow up with...so if a family includes people from three or more generations, living together, the children are more likely to continue that practice.  I've seen this with Spanish friends who are religious, and with Spanish friends who are not at all religious.

Parodi--



> If you believe in the inalienable right of every person to be free, perhaps you could consider that *(1) religion*--or (2)"authority from a higher plane"-- is the only way to guarantee those rights beyond the whims of kings, mullahs, imams, and dictators.


 You have equated belief in a higher power/God/"authority from a higher plane" with religion.  They are not one and the same.

I keep company with a great many people who have a profound faith in a higher power, and who have no religious practice.







			
				heidita said:
			
		

> I have just read this interesting post of yours, and do think that there is great fundament in it. What does it matter that they SAY that they belief if they do not behave accordingly?
> 
> In Spain as a strongly catholic country there must be a great amount of percentage of church goers and believers. Even students of mine, 16 to 26 year old, *do* go to church and find it very normal. We have had discussions about the topic and they DO believe that religious education is important or has been so for them.
> 
> I also think that one of the ways you can see these believes are the relationships the Spanish people still have family wise. Even though there are cases where the elders are abandoned and live alone and lonely this is not the usual case. Most of the elders I know live with their daughters and families and I think that this has a lot to do with the religious education the people receive when they are young.


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## Ana Raquel

Hi Heidita,

that of a premarital course and so it is something of the church, not something of the country. The vast majority of people around me, young and old are not religious, ignore the church, don't do any premarital course, don't marry in a religious wedding but civil as maximum, many live together withouh marrying, in short, all of that you told belongs to the catholic churh, not to the country, it is made by people who pay attention to religion.



			
				heidita said:
			
		

> I have been living in Spain for more than 30 years and learned to love the country and its customs dearly.
> 
> I do think though that there are customs soooooo ancient that they should be done away with.
> 
> I have seen that people go to church "just to be seen" at church, not for their religious believes. When youngsters celebrate their Holy Communion all parents celebrate the day but then they never go to church again afterwards.
> 
> My personal experience was rough, as the Spanish Catholic church *obliges* you to get a so called "dispensa" (permission) to marry a non catholic person (I am a protestant, that's why I am always protesting, I suppose) if you want a church wedding. So my husband had to get this dispensa . We needed two witnesses to vouch for us and then the "obispado" gave my husband permission to marry.
> 
> But , even worse, we had to do a so called *"premarital course*", two weeks of telling the people how to behave, what to do, what not to do...... I did not accept to do any kind of course at the age of 33 and only when my husband convinced the priest and NOT do the course, could we finally get married in the beautiful "Iglesia de Santa Mónica " in Madrid. The course still exists and the church obliges you to do it (with really very, very few exceptions), as it was done by one of my dear students, the first of all of them to get married, last year, and not only did *he and his bride have to assist but also his parents*. I do think that this seems like the stone ages.
> 
> Well, I wonder if their is anything similar in your country and do you agree with these archaic customs?


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## sandzilg

_ Well, I wonder if their is anything similar in your country and do you agree with these archaic customs?

_Well, the catholic church is an archaic institution. If you choose to be a part of it you should abide by its rules. If not, why getting married in chruch? I guess my point is, if you believe in the scrament, it would make sense to get some type of training. If it sounds completely ridiculous to have to go through it when you are 33, maybe the whole thing doesn´t make a lot of sense, right? On a personal note, I don´t believe the fact that joining my partner for life needs to be blessed by any institution. So of course the whole premarital course has no use for me. But then, nothing in the whole process of getting married in church does. I don´t think you can pick one thing and not the other.


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## GenJen54

Hola,

If I could please remind everyone of the topic at hand, which is:



> What makes the U.S. so comparatively religious, at least in word? What accounts for the huge decline in religious practice and faith / increase in secularization in most of Europe (after all, Europe probably wasn't so much more secular in 1906), and why did the U.S. not experience this to same degree?



Pre-marital counseling as required by the Catholic church does not fit into this thread topic.  If you'd like to start another thread about whether you think it should be required, you are welcome to do so.

Thank you. 

GenJen54
Moderator


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## cuchuflete

Addressing the first question only:

" 			 				What makes the U.S. so comparatively religious, at least in word?"

The US has a strongly rooted capitalist mentality.  Many religions are good at the business end of things.  They are good marketers.  They research the potential market for member contributors, and give them cleverly crafted messages that attract those people to the institution.

Churches advertise in small town newspapers!  They use radio and television and the internet to promote membership.  Some of these institutions, regardless of theological motives, are damned good marketers.


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