# تبغدد، تمصر، إلخ



## xebonyx

Hey guys, I'm curious to know a little bit about "تبغدد" (tabaghdada) - to swagger, show off, to act like one from Baghdad;تمصر (tamaSSara)- to be an Egyptian, Egyptianize. There are other meanings with it, but I'm just focusing on these particular ones.

A. Are these terms common to use in MSA? Also, withتمصر , does that strictly mean obtaining Egyptian citizenship, or does it also mean "behaving" like an Egyptian? Does political context affect the power of these terms? What are the factors of behavior, is it related to speaking (or mimicking) the dialect and customs? 

B. Are there other terms such as these which exist, ie. "تسدن" (tasaddana) to act like one from Sudan, become Sudanese?

Thanks.


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## nanos

I think it originally meant acting like one, somebody from Baghdad, Egypt... so on (probably the stereotype of people from Baghdad is that they swagger, I DON'T KNOW)...


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## yasmeena

In colloquial Syrian they say تدمشق eddamsha2, in a sense similar to that of tabaghdad.

The term لبننة labnana (make Lebanese) is used quite often in MSA on the news. لبننة المشروع، لبننة الحوار (direct its course to the interest of Lebanon).

In colloquial, the term is used in the sense of behaving like the Lebanese - mostly meaning unsettlement, disagreement, sectarianism.


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## xebonyx

yasmeena said:


> In colloquial Syrian they say تدمشق eddamsha2, in a sense similar to that of tabaghdad.


 
That's very interesting info, Yasmeena. Thanks.

I'll just assume that if others exist, in order totake the pattern ت + country/city name, it must have a fatHa have after the first radical in the orginal word (hence b*a*ghdad, m*a*Sr, d*a*mashq). However, labnana still follows the "a-a" pattern well. So maybe "sadana" is a possibility if not tasadana. Or at least, we can create it 



> The term لبننة labnana (make Lebanese) is used quite often in MSA on the news. لبننة المشروع، لبننة الحوار (direct its course to the interest of Lebanon).
> 
> In colloquial, the term is used in the sense of behaving like the Lebanese - mostly meaning unsettlement, disagreement, sectarianism.


 
About what it means to be Lebanese, so I was correct in saying politics does have an affect on what these words mean. I wonder if others have such a negative connotation. For example, tabaghdada has probably come more to mean what labnana does in recent times (due to the Iraq war). 

Do you guys have a related positive word that espouses a sense of pride?


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## yasmeena

xebonyx said:


> (hence b*a*ghdad, m*a*Sr, d*a*mashq).


 
It is D*i*mashq.


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## nanos

I am Lebanese, the word "labnana" does not have a negative meaning by itself, it's where it appeared that gave it on those instances a negative connotation...


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## Josh_

xebonyx said:


> That's very interesting info, Yasmeena. Thanks.
> 
> I'll just assume that if others exist, in order totake the pattern ت + country/city name, it must have a fatHa have after the first radical in the orginal word (hence b*a*ghdad, m*a*Sr, d*a*mashq). However, labnana still follows the "a-a" pattern well. So maybe "sadana" is a possibility if not tasadana. Or at least, we can create it


The one I am familiar with is سودن، يسودن _sawdin, yisawdin_ -- "to Sudan-ize;" to affect the mannerisms of the the Sudanese. 

Another one I can think of that I have heard is سعود، يسعود _sa3wid, yisa3wid_ -- to "Saudi-ize;" to affect the mannerisms of the Saudis.

It seems to me that the majority of terms like this are quadriliteral, perhaps due in part to the fact that they have more than three letters in their names.


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## ayed

When we say Ta2amrak, it means "he Americanized himself"or behaves as if he is an American".
Gharrab : he *headed*/went *westwards*
sharraqa: he *headed* *eastwards* 
ashmala:he *headed* *northwards*
ajnaba:he *headed* *southwards*
If it were possible to derive a verb from the aforsaid, I would say:
_he westered, eastered...ect._


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## Mahaodeh

In Baghdad they say تتبغدد علينا وإحنا أهل بغداد 
 
The verb تبغدد is actually closer to colloquial, it came to be when Baghdad was in it's golden age in the late Middle Ages; Baghdad was then an affluent, rich and prosperous city known for it's culture and science. Someone from Baghdad (at the time) would act in culturally refined way that may seem to others as if he is showing off; hence the idea that someone who is showing off is pretending to be from Baghdad. Later, after the fall of Baghdad, the meaning of showing off remained highly used in colloquial.
 



yasmeena said:


> In colloquial Syrian they say





yasmeena said:


> تدمشق eddamsha2, in a sense similar to that of tabaghdad.



 
I don't recall hearing it, but I believe it must have the same origin.
 
تمصّر has a more classical origin. The word miSr مِصْر has more than one meaning; the root has several verbs in it, one of which is تَمَصَّرَ, which originally means "became a resident of a city" as opposed to being a nomad or a resident of a village or rural area. It is closely related to تَحَضَّرَ = to become settled after being a nomad; and تَمَدَّنَ = to have the culture of a city, to become civilized.
 
The first meaning that came to my mind was not that of "becoming Egyptian", but that of "becoming a resident of a city". Note that مَصَّرَ مِصْرًا = he built a city, or he turn the place into a city.


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## WadiH

Josh_ said:


> Another one I can think of that I have heard is سعود، يسعود _sa3wid, yisa3wid_ -- to "Saudi-ize;" to affect the mannerisms of the Saudis.



Actually this term simply means replacing non-Saudi employees with Saudi ones.  The term you're thinking of is تسعود, يتسعود, etc.


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## Faylasoof

Many of these country-associated verbs are of the 5th form. Do they also have the corresponding 2nd form? For example, does this exist: _baghghada_ بَغَدَ = make / turn something or someone Baghdadi???  

We do have _massara_ مَصَّرَ  and  _3arraba_ عَرّبَ  = to Arabacize a word, speak pure Arabic, drink pure water etc. (plus 8 other meanings!) and also _ta3arraba _ تَعَرّبَ = become a nomad Bedouin,  be translated into Arabic, become separated (plus 3-4 other meanings).

One of the meanings of _ta3arraba_ تَعَرّبَ  seems to be the opposite of one of the meanings of تَمَصَّرَ and that of تَحَضَّرَ :



Mahaodeh said:


> تمصّر has a more classical origin. The word miSr مِصْر has more than one meaning; the root has several verbs in it, one of which is تَمَصَّرَ, which originally means "became a resident of a city" as opposed to being a nomad or a resident of a village or rural area. It is closely related to تَحَضَّرَ = to become settled after being a nomad;....
> 
> The first meaning that came to my mind was not that of "becoming Egyptian", but that of "becoming a resident of a city". Note that مَصَّرَ مِصْرًا = he built a city, or he turn the place into a city.


 


In classical texts I’ve also found _hannada_ ھَنّدَ = to make from Indian steel – esp. a sword called _muhannad_ مُھَنّد (plus 4 other meanings). But I’ve yet to see _tahannada_ تَھَنّدّ anywhere.


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## cherine

Josh_ said:


> The one I am familiar with is سودن، يسودن _sawdin, yisawdin_ -- "to Sudan-ize;" to affect the mannerisms of the the Sudanese.
> 
> Another one I can think of that I have heard is سعود، يسعود _sa3wid, yisa3wid_ -- to "Saudi-ize;" to affect the mannerisms of the Saudis.


Just a little correction, Josh:
sawdana, yusawdin(u)
sa3wada, yusa3wid(u).



Mahaodeh said:


> In Baghdad they say تتبغدد علينا وإحنا أهل بغداد



 I like this one.


> The verb تبغدد is actually closer to colloquial, it came to be when Baghdad was in it's golden age in the late Middle Ages; Baghdad was then an affluent, rich and prosperous city known for it's culture and science. Someone from Baghdad (at the time) would act in culturally refined way that may seem to others as if he is showing off; hence the idea that someone who is showing off is pretending to be from Baghdad. Later, after the fall of Baghdad, the meaning of showing off remained highly used in colloquial.



I agree with the explanation of the origin. But, in Egypt, this word "el baghdada" is not negative at all, nor does it mean "showing off", but it's more of "leading a refined life" or having a refined life style.



			
				Maha said:
			
		

> تَمَصَّرَ, which originally means "became a resident of a city" as opposed to being a nomad or a resident of a village or rural area. It is closely related to تَحَضَّرَ = to become settled after being a nomad; and تَمَدَّنَ = to have the culture of a city, to become civilized.


In Egypt, we use "tamaSSara" and "tamSiir" تمصير for "making or becoming Egyptian", specially with things not people. It was often used with early cinematographic productions, when most movies where and "egyptianization" of foreign movies. You'd see on the movie title a sentence like: مأخوذ عن .... وقام بتمصيرها فلان 



Faylasoof said:


> Many of these country-associated verbs are of the 5th form. Do they also have the corresponding 2nd form? For example, does this exist: _baghghada_ بَغَدَ = make / turn something or someone Baghdadi???



I don't think بغَّد is used.
Most of these words follow the pattern فعلل and not فعَّل (maybe مصَّر is an exception). But note:
سَعْوَد - سَوْدَن - بَغْدَد - لَبْنَن 
And I don't think we can form these words from all country names. Some country names would be very difficult to render in this pattern.


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## xebonyx

Thanks a lot everyone. Especially to Cherine an excellent detailed explanation about "tamaSSara", and Maha as well about "tabaghdada".


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## Xence

May I add تجزأر _tajaz2ara_ referring to Algeria.
One may meet things like جزأرة التعليم or تيار الجزأرة (in politics).


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## xebonyx

Xence said:


> May I add تجزأر _tajaz2ara_ referring to Algeria.
> One may meet things like *جزأرة التعليم* or تيار الجزأرة (in politics).


Excellent.

Meaning to make education more nationalistic and tailored/oriented to the Algerian identity?


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## Xence

Yes. And also recruiting teachers almost exclusively among Algerians. The French established word is _algérianiser_  (_algérianisation_).


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## Faylasoof

cherine said:


> And I don't think we can form these words from all country names. Some country names would be very difficult to render in this pattern.


 I agree Cherine that it will not be possible to make a verb in these categories for every country, city or region. The minimum criteria would be to be able to adapt their names such that they either fall into a triliteral or a quadriliteral form.  

Below I summarise what we have so far are. As you all will notice, I’ve a few things I’m still not sure of, hence the liberal use of (?) - [New items are in blue]

*Triliteral forms*


*fa33ala *

maSSara مَصَّرَ =  to found / build a city, make a capital, make something Egyptian.

baSSara بَصَّرَ = to go to Basra, to become / make something Basran (?)

hannada هَنَّدَ = to make something of Indian steel (esp. sword: al-muhannad).

3arraba عَرَّبَ = to Arabacize a word, speak pure Arabic, teach Arabic.

kawwafa كَوَّفَ = to go to Kufa, to become /make something Kufan (?)

Gharraba غَرَّبَ = to head west, to westernise. 

sharraqa شَرَّقَ = to head east, to make something eastern /easternise(?) – never heard of this. _Is it so used?_ 

*af3ala*

ajnaba أَجنَبَ= to head / go south;

ashlamaأَشمَلَ = to head /go north;



*tafa33ala*

tamaSSara تَمَصَّر = to Egyptianize something, to become a city resident, to be / become an Egyptian 

ta3arraba    تَعَرَّب =   to be translated into Arabic, become a naturalised Arab, to become a nomad

takawwafa   تَكَوَّفَ= to appear / pretend to be a Kufan

taHaDhDhara تَحَضَّر = to become urbanised, settle down in a town





*Quadriliteral forms*


*fa3lala*

baghdada بَغدَدَ =  ?

labnana لَبنَنَ =  behave like a Lebanese 

damshaqa دَمشَقَ= to perform speedily,  dispatch

sawdana سَودَن =  to Sudanize

sa3wada   = سَعوَدَto replace non-Saudi with Saudi 


*tafa3lala*

tabaghdada  تَبَغدَدَ = to swagger, show off, to act like one from Baghdad, to go to Baghdad

tadamshaqa تَدَمشَقَ= to behave like a Damascene. 

tajaz’ara   تَجَزأَرَ= to “Algerianise”

ta’amraka  / Ta2amrak تَأَمرَكَ= to become Americanised / behave like an American

tasa3wada تسعود =  to affect Saudi mannerisms, 


One can come up with more: 

_landana __لَندَنَ =  to go to London_

_talandana __تَلَندَنَ = to behave /  act like a Londoner_


_Of course, these at the moment are not officially recognised, but as a Londoner I live in hope to see these in use one day._


Comments and corrections welcome.


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## Xence

Faylasoof said:
			
		

> _talandana __تَلَندَنَ = to behave / act like a Londoner_


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## Mahaodeh

You also have تأجْنَبَ = to become, or pretend to be, foriegn; but it's usually used to refer to someone trying to become Westernised as the word تَغَرَّبَ has already been taken for "to travel to a foriegn land and live there". Likewise, others would be difficult to use because the words have already been taken such as قَطَّر/تَقَطَّرَ، أمَّر/تَأمَّرَ، عَرَّقَ/تَعَرَّقَ، يَمَّنَ/تَيَمَّنَ.


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## djara

yasmeena said:


> In colloquial Syrian they say تدمشق eddamsha2, in a sense similar to that of tabaghdad.


I always wondered where the Tunisian verb _yitmajdaq _(يتمجدق)
I now can see it could come from تدمشق 
In Tunisian the verb means to say foolish, idle, and irrelevant things.


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## Mahaodeh

I would imagine that يتمجدق more likely comes from يتمشدق, which is used in IA to mean "to say big words so that one can seem as if he is knowledgeable or educated"; it comes from the fus7a تَشَدَّقَ, that means "to say something eloquent intentionally", derived from الشِدق, which is the inside lining of the cheeks, the part that "blobs" out when you have a big mouthful of food - to say فلان يتشدق بالكلام is like saying "he is saying words so big they a like big mouthful, too big for his mouth".
 
يتمشدق is derived in the form يتمفعل similar to يتملعب ويتمنطق ويتمرغل; this form is used quite often in IA, mostly to give the meaning of doing silly or stupid things intentionally.


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## Xence

We also, in Algeria, have this verb يتمجدق _yetmejdeg_ (at least in my region) with the meaning of _some one who has valuable things and deprives himself/herself of their benefits or refuses to share them_. It's a little childish vocabulary.
But, I think Mahodeh is probably right because we also use the word جدق _jdeg_ to mean _a bit of_ _bread_ (or any other kind of food): اعطني جدق خبز


***

And I agree about the form يتمفعل . Here are some other words used in Algerian Arabic: يتمسخر - يتمهبل - يتمسكن - يتمجنن - يتمروح - يتمسمر - etc.


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