# Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau. - Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau.



## marcogaiotto

Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau - Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau

Here I am still asking for your help. Are the sentences both correct? I mean: can "und" replace the comma? Thanks a lot in advance!


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## Kajjo

_ Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau.
 Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau.
_
Both sentences are correct and idiomatic. They can have almost the identical meaning, but in general the comma-separated enumeration binds the last member more closely to the noun than the und-separated enumaration in which the members are more equal.


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## marcogaiotto

That's very kind of you, Kajjo! Thank you so much!


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> They can have almost the identical meaning, but in general the comma-separated enumeration binds the last member more closely to the noun than the und-separated enumaration in which the members are more equal.


 Interesting.  This is not the case in English, where the two versions are identical in emphasis.  The closer association with the second adjective would arise if there were *no* comma.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Interesting.  This is not the case in English, where the two versions are identical in emphasis.  The closer association with the second adjective would arise if there were *no* comma.


That's how I would describe it in German too. I think Kajjo just considered the alternatives with or without _and_ but didn't have the third option (neither _and_ nor comma) on his radar.


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## bearded

(Nur eine Randbemerkung): In Sprachen wie Italienisch, wo adjektivische Attribute oft dem Hauptwort _folgen, _ist nur die Fassung mit der Konjunktion (e/et..) möglich.
_Una donna bella e intelligente / une femme belle et intelligente. _
Auch die seltenere Wortstellung mit Adjektiven _vor _dem Nomen ist möglich (auf Ital. zumindest), allerdings immer mit der Konjunktion: _una bella e intelligente donna._


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## berndf

Ja, in Deutsch und Englisch (und wahrscheinlich auch in anderen germanischen Sprachen) kann man durch die hier beschriebe Art zwischen _einer Frau, die schön und intelligent ist _und zwischen _einer intelligenten Frau, die schön ist_ unterscheiden. Je nach Kontext kann dieser Unterschied bedeutsam sein und letzteres muss in romanischen Sprachen umschrieben werden. Auf Französisch würde ich _eine_ _schöne intelligente Frau_ als nicht-Muttersprachler so zu übersetzen versuchen: _une femme intelligente, qui est belle en même temps_. Wie würdest Du das auf Italienisch ausdrücken?


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## bearded

berndf said:


> . Wie würdest Du das auf Italienisch ausdrücken?


Es gibt verschiedene Möglichkeiten: am besten wäre die Verwendung von 'anche' = auch: _Una donna intelligente e anche bella. _Ansonsten kann man ein Adjektiv vor und eines nach dem Nomen haben (diese Möglichkeit habe ich eigentlich bei meiner #6 vergessen), je nachdem, was man betonen will: _Una bella donna intelligente...

<... Danke, korrigiert ...>_


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> but didn't have the third option (neither _and_ nor comma) on his radar.


True, I focused on the two possibilities asked.

_ Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau.
 Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau._
_ Das ist eine schöne kluge Frau.
_
The binding of the last adjective to the noun increases from top ("entirely parallel") to bottom ("eine kluge Frau, die auch schön ist").


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> _ Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau.
> Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau.
> Das ist eine schöne kluge Frau.
> _
> The binding of the last adjective to the noun increases from top ("entirely parallel") to bottom ("eine kluge Frau, die auch schön ist").


 In English the first two are entirely equal.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> In English the first two are entirely equal.


As I said, it is the same for me in German. The third option has a decidedly different meaning. I cannot see any robust distinction between frist two options.


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## Hutschi

For me, too.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> any robust distinction


Hm, might be a question of defining "robust" distinction. For me the ring of the words is distinctively enough different with or without "und". The first focuses on parallelity, the second is more a simple enumeration. I agree, however, that the first two are a lot closer to each other than to the third option.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Hm, might be a question of defining "robust" distinction. ... I agree, however, that the first two are a lot closer to each other than to the third option.


I think we can leave it at that.


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## elroy

The first two differ in rhythm, yes.  But there is zero difference in meaning or emphasis.  (In English.)


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Auf Französisch würde ich _eine_ _schöne intelligente Frau_ als nicht-Muttersprachler so zu übersetzen versuchen: _une femme intelligente, qui est belle en même temps_.


Das würde ich auf keinen  Fall sagen, das klingt nämlich so, als ob eine intelligente Frau, die (gleichzeitig) schön ist, einen Ausnahme darstellt. (*=* intelligente Frauen sind im Allgemeinen nicht sehr attraktiv)


Das ist eine schöne und intelligente Frau./ Das ist eine schöne, intelligente Frau. > C'est une femme belle et intelligente. 
Das ist eine schöne intelligente Frau. > C'est une belle  femme   intelligente. (_intelligente_ allein kann nicht vor dem Nomen stehen - zur Not  ginge auch: C'est une belle et intelligente femme._ - _aber das klingt nicht sehr idiomatisch_)_


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## elroy

JClaudeK said:


> Das ist eine schöne intelligente Frau.


 Honestly, I think this is an extremely unlikely thing to say in any language.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> The first two differ in rhythm, yes.  But there is zero difference in meaning or emphasis.  (In English.)


Here is a real world example where _und_ vs. comma makes a difference, though not the one Kajjo claimed. And I think this would work just the same in English:

After having learned that our favourite cat had been over by a car, I yesterday posted a photo of her on social media with the following caption:
(1) _Süße, liebe, kluge Lissy. Du fehlst uns so._

I could alternatively have written:
(2) _Süße, liebe und kluge Lissy. Du fehlst uns so_.

Option (2) sounds awkward because it lumps the three adjectives into an amorphic composite attribute while option (1) places equal and separate weight on each of them.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> Honestly, I think this is an extremely unlikely thing to say in any language.


Hi elroy, what is the problem? Do you see a grammatical problem, a sexism problem, or some other?

Of course it depends on the situation.

Does it depend on whether you say it to a friend or to a girl friend?

Do you mean "say" literally or do you mean "write"? (There the comma makes a difference.)

Or is the problem "das"?


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## JClaudeK

Hutschi said:


> Hi elroy, what is the problem? Do you see a grammatical problem, a sexism problem, or some other?


I don't understand either what's the problem.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> Here is a real world example where _und_ vs. comma makes a difference


 This is of course different, since there are three adjectives.


Hutschi said:


> Hi elroy, what is the problem?


 There’s no “problem.”  I simply think there are very few contexts in which that sentence would make sense or be used.


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## Hutschi

So it is like the most of complete sentences ...


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## berndf

elroy said:


> This is of course different, since there are three adjectives.


I cannot see why. The only thing that matters is if the last comma of an enumeration of comma separated attributes is replaced by _und/and_ or not.


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> So it is like the most of complete sentences ...


 Do you really not see what I'm saying?  Can you give me a likely, plausible scenario in which you would use that sentence?  We can construct far-fetched scenarios for most sentences, which is why I said it was _highly unlikely_, not impossible.  But it's so unlikely that it's almost not worth discussing how it would be said in French, for example.


berndf said:


> I cannot see why.


 Your own explanation for the difference was that the version with "und" creates an imbalance!  That's only the case because there is a third adjective.  "X und Y" and "X, Y" are similarly balanced.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Your own explanation for the difference was that the version with "und" creates an imbalance! That's only the case because there is a third adjective. "X und Y" and "X, Y" are similarly balanced.


No, that is not the issue. The emphasis in


berndf said:


> places equal and separate weight on each of them.


is on _separate_. In spoken language you would stress each adjective separately and add an extra pause after each of them.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> Do you really not see what I'm saying?  Can you give me a likely, plausible scenario in which you would use that sentence?  We can construct far-fetched scenarios for most sentences, which is why I said it was _highly unlikely_, not impossible.  ...


May be it is a cultural difference.
Do you mean the exact wording or the content?

I quite often said to my wife: "Du bist schön und klug, deshalb habe ich dich auch geheiratet."
And we discussed movies: "xxx ist nicht nur schön, sondern auch klug."
I found lots of pages about "schön und klug" in German, usually about woman. That is why I thought you write about sexism.
I just do not understand your point. Is it a kind of taboo in other languages? In German it isn't. (Except male politicians should not use it.)

It is called "compliment".

Sometimes it can fire back like a boomerang, if a minister says it - may be he will be accused for sexism by "political correct" people. (It happened half a year ago.)


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## elroy

@berndf: Please give me an example with just _two_ adjectives, and clearly articulate the difference you see in that concrete example.

@Hutschi: I'm only talking about the version without a comma or "und": "eine schöne intelligente Frau" (see #17).  Your post does not address this one.


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## berndf

Just delete _liebe_ from my example. The difference in emphasis would be the same.


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## Hutschi

...
@Hutschi: I'm only talking about the version without a comma or "und": "eine schöne intelligente Frau" (see #17).  Your post does not address this one.[/QUOTE]
Now I understand it. 
This is seldom used, I agree here.
The garden path was "say" can mean "to say" or "to write" here.


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## Kajjo

(1a) _Süße, kluge Lissy. Du fehlst uns so._
(1b) _Süße und kluge Lissy. Du fehlst uns so_.

I agree there is a significant difference in overall feeling and connotation.That is what I claimed all the time. These sentences are not entirely equal and exchangeable. They are noticeably different.

In my feeling the first one focuses more on Lissy and enumerates some endearing attributes. In the second one the focus is more on the two attributes. Further "süße und kluge" feels like it forms _one _attribute to Lissy, while "süße, kluge" enumerates two separate, more independent attributes.

Anyway, the sentences are different and not "entirely equal".


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## screamerer

Hi. I find _*Das ist eine schöne und kluge Frau *_(or, _*This is a lovely and intelligent woman*_) to add the extra element of combination. _*Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau  *_(or, _*This is a lovely, intelligent woman*_), though yields the meaning of the two attributes being combined, does not really give it as part of the direct interpretation, and so can't induce the same sense of coexistence being observed as does the _und_ version.


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## ayuda?

*Re:* *Das ist eine schöne, kluge Frau.*
That is a beautiful, intelligent woman. **[In English, the comma does not bind the last adjective to the noun, as it might in German. When they are separated by a comma, it is just a matter of how they are placed by the writer, with no special significance.]

*Just for the record: Comma Rule Concerning Adjectives in a Series*
In correct English, putting a comma between two adjectives (or a string of adjectives) is not just arbitrary. There are 2 kinds of adjectives: *coordinate* and *cumulative *in this case.

Commas with Adjectives
*NOTE:* Also click the Audio Box on the site above and Quiz below.

*From the site above:
Coordinate Adjectives: *
Coordinate adjectives are adjectives in a row that *each separately modify the noun that follows *(1), as in “*heavy, bulky box*.” Both “heavy” and “bulky” modify “box.” You can even rearrange the adjectives and say, “*bulky, heavy box.”*

*Cumulative Adjectives:*
Cumulative adjectives, on the other hand, *don’t separately modify the noun that follows* even though they are all stacked up before the noun too (2). Instead, the adjective right before the noun pairs with the noun as a unit, and then adjective before that unit modifies that. An example will make this more clear: In the phrase *“exquisite custom houseboat*,” (no comma) “custom” modifies “houseboat”—they become *a unit*—and then “exquisite” modifies “custom houseboat.”

[If you try to rearrange the adjectives, it is awkward—just doesn’t sound right—“custom exquisite houseboat.” You can’t rearrange cumulative adjectives and make it sound right.
*Test:*
Add the word *“and” *between the adjectives. If the phrase makes sense, the adjectives are coordinate; if not, they’re cumulative. For example, “It’s a bulky *and* heavy box” makes good sense but “It’s an exquisite and custom houseboat” does not. [awkward—vs exquisite custom houseboat (just sounds better to your ear).]

*Other examples of* *Coordinate Adjectives*: [If you change the order, it doesn’t make sense—sounds awkward.]
●Shannon loves wearing *pink cashmere* sweaters in the winter.
●Try brushed *pewter cupboard *knobs for accents to your decor that are timeless.
●We bought two dozen boxes *of mouth-watering peanut butter* Girl Scout cookies.
●We saw a* young golden* retriever.

*Note:* All of these first adjectives really modify the second adjective, which is intrinsic to the noun that follows.  And the first adjective is not sufficiently distinctive to be considered a powerful distinction in and of itself.
*Note also:*
A lot of Americans don’t know where or why a comma might belong there. It would probably go unnoticed by a lot of people, except by others who are more discerning about “proper” writing and grammar. What’s the story in German?

** If you think this comma business bugs you, it is a problem for Americans, too..."comma-itis," etc.


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## Kajjo

ayuda? said:


> Other examples of Coordinate Adjectives:


Cumulative?!

Interestingly, many of these examples are not really adjectives but look more like noun (cashmere, peanut, butter, cupboard). In German these would be compound nouns, probably.

In German the same distinction between coordinative and cumulative applies. Without comma, a list of stacked adjectives binds the last adjective closer to the noun.


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## Schlabberlatz

elroy said:


> Honestly, I think this is an extremely unlikely thing to say in any language.


Man könnte sich einen Kontext ausdenken, in dem der Satz funktioniert:
„Das ist eine _schöne_ intelligente Frau. Und das da drüben ist eine _nicht_ so schöne intelligente Frau.“
Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass man so etwas sagt, ist aber vielleicht wirklich gering.

Was den Unterschied zwischen den Versionen mit oder ohne Komma betrifft, ist es im Englischen so ähnlich wie im Deutschen, so weit ich weiß. Mit Komma: die Eigenschaften werden aufgezählt. Beispiel ohne Komma: "Give me the big blue box." (Not the small blue box that’s standing next to it.) Korrekt?


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