# He waited to the ninth hour until the rest of the ships should come together



## Lamb67

He waited to the ninth hour until the rest of the ships should come together.

Ad nonam horam mansit dum reliquae naves convenirent

Just unsure of the ' to the ninth hour' here.

Please comment

Thanks.


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## Starfrown

I think we may need to change the English sentence a bit first. Perhaps:

"He waited until the ninth hour, when the rest of the ships came together." [I don't think this needs any further explanation.]

"He waited until the ninth hour, when the rest of the ships would/should have come together." [This one has two possible interpretations depending on how "should" is taken by the reader. It may mean that the ships ought to have come together, but they didn't--this reading is only possible with "should." Then again it may simply show the subject's conviction that the ships would have come together by that time--possible with "would" or "should."]

"He waited until the ninth hour, when the rest of the ships would come together." [They always came together at the ninth hour.]

For some reason, it seems odd to me to combine "waited" with "would/should come together" in this sentence. On the other hand, the following is completely fine:

"He would wait until the ninth hour, when the rest of the ships would/should come together."

In short, it would probably be best for you to clarify exactly what you wish to say before any attempt at translation is made.


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## Lamb67

Quote ' It(dum) means until, and may be followed by the Subjunctive, if purpose is implied.

Dum reliquae naves eo convenirent, in ancoris expectavit,

He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should assemble there. unquote.

That's what my textbook explains on Dum. 

So I just amended it now as : Dum reliquae naves convenirent ad horam nonam expectavit.( the main verb in changed to expect instead of wait.)


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## Starfrown

Lamb67 said:


> Quote ' It(dum) means until, and may be followed by the Subjunctive, if purpose is implied.
> 
> Dum reliquae naves eo convenirent, in ancoris expectavit,
> 
> He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should assemble there. unquote.
> 
> That's what my textbook explains on Dum.
> 
> So I just amended it now as : Dum reliquae naves convenirent ad horam nonam expectavit.( the main verb in changed to expect instead of wait.)


I think that you may safely ignore my above post, though I think it's okay to let it stand since it does contain some potentially valuable information.  I realize now that your sentence was written in archaic English.  In contemporary English, we would be almost certain to say instead:

"...till the rest of the ships _assembled_ there."

It's somewhat confusing because "assembled" can represent either a factual or not-yet-factual event in until/till clauses in English.  In archaic English, "should assemble" has only a not-yet-factual reading.

In Latin, factual events in a _dum_ clause are rendered with the indicative, not-yet-factual events with the subjunctive--thus such clauses indicate expectation, intention, etc.


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## Lamb67

Interrestingly, If ' He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should assemble there' is an archaic English expression, then 'He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should BE assembled there.' might be an acceptable modern one.

What's your opinion please?


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## XiaoRoel

Usque ad horam nonam exspectaui, dum reliquae naues conuenirent


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## Starfrown

Lamb67 said:


> Interrestingly, If ' He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should assemble there' is an archaic English expression, then 'He waited at anchor till the rest of the ships should BE assembled there.' might be an acceptable modern one.
> 
> What's your opinion please?


In general, "should" in an until clause, denoting expectation or intention will have a slightly antiquated flavor, whether the verb form is active or passive--I'm not absolutely sure whether it should technically be called archaic yet. I would NEVER use it in speech, and I would not expect to see this even in writing in contemporary America. Still, any well-read American would be quite familiar with it, and it is possible that the expression is still in frequent use in some of the other English-speaking countries.

By the way, I don't think it's been mentioned yet that this is an adaption of Caesar:

_[D]um reliquae naves eo convenirent ad horam nonam in ancoris expectavit._


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## XiaoRoel

> By the way, I don't think it's been mentioned yet that this is an adaption of Caesar:
> 
> _[D]um reliquae naves eo convenirent ad horam nonam in ancoris expectavit._


Por eso me sonaba a algo mi traducción, no me acordaba del texto de César pero debía estar en mi memoria profunda. Gracias por el dato, Starfrown.


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