# La "Y"



## VenusEnvy

Ok, I have to ask this in English, sorry Spanish-speakers . . .

I was talking to a Spanish-speaker yesterday, ok, we were spelling. I pronounced the letter "y" like "igriega". But, when he pronounced it, he would say, "eee". I asked him why he pronounced it like "i", and he told me that "y" was called "eee-minusculo".    I have to admit, his logic didn't quite reach me. He also said that sometimes, people call it "doble l" (like: ll sound).

Can someone make sense of my situation? I hope what I've said has made sense to you all!   

Thanks, like always.


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## Artrella

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Ok, I have to ask this in English, sorry Spanish-speakers . . .
> 
> I was talking to a Spanish-speaker yesterday, ok, we were spelling. I pronounced the letter "y" like "igriega". But, when he pronounced it, he would say, "eee". I asked him why he pronounced it like "i", and he told me that "y" was called "eee-minuscula ".    I have to admit, his logic didn't quite reach me. He also said that sometimes, people call it "doble l" (like: ll sound).
> 
> Can someone make sense of my situation? I hope what I've said has made sense to you all!
> 
> Thanks, like always.




Hi Venusita!

This letter is *called* " y griega "
The *sound* is like an "i" (eee)
But some people pronounce it as a "ll".
"y">>> "y griega minúscula" but this is not related to pronunciation.
By no means the "y" is called "ll" but as I've said before, sometimes the pronuciation of both letters is the same.

Ask me if you still have doubts.


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## piloya

Hi,
Y is called "i griega" as you said and it is pronounced "ee"
"i" is called "i latina" and is pronounced "ee"
Phonetically they're the same sound when the "y" is at the end of a word, like in "Rey".

has it clarified your doubt?


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## crom

Y is called "i griega". This letter "i" is pronounced like the letter "e" in English, that is /I/ not /ai/.

I hope you understand me.

crom
"Please, correct me"


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## VenusEnvy

Ok, so the name of the letter is different from its pronunciation. I get it. So, when you spell out the word "city", what do you say? (Although I know it's an English word, how would one spell it out do a Spanish-speaker?)

I would say:
"say"
"ee"
"tay"
"igriega"

I hope what I've said made sense. I don't have a problem pronouncing words. In fact, I think I can speak Spanish (barring grammar) very well. However, when spelling words out loud, what does one say?

When he spelled the word city, he said:
"say"
"ee"
"tay"
"ee"


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## piloya

"Y" is pronounced "ll" when it's followed by a vowel, like "ya" or "payaso". Argentinians  make the difference between the sound of "ll" and the sound of "y" when followed by a vowel, but Spaniards don't. I pronounce both exactly the same way.
Note that all words that end with the sound "i" are spelled with "y". Examples: rey, ¡caray!


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## piloya

Hi Venusenvy,
your spelling is correct. I'd only point out that "c" is pronounced "se" and "t", "te", without the final "ee" sound at the end.


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## Artrella

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Ok, so the name of the letter is different from its pronunciation. I get it. So, when you spell out the word "city", what do you say? (Although I know it's an English word, how would one spell it out do a Spanish-speaker?)
> 
> I would say:
> "say"
> "ee"
> "tay"
> "igriega"
> 
> I hope what I've said made sense.




I will give you an example:

reyes = erre-e-y griega- e- ese

city = ce-i-te-y griega

Is this what you need?


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## VenusEnvy

piloya said:
			
		

> your spelling is correct. I'd only point out that "c" is pronounced "se" and "t", "te", without the final "ee" sound at the end.



Sorry, I spelled the letters according the pronounciation of my own language, English.


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## VenusEnvy

Artrella said:
			
		

> I will give you an example:
> 
> reyes = erre-e-y griega- e- ese
> 
> city = ce-i-te-y griega
> 
> Is this what you need?




YES, YES, YES!

Ok, so the way you just spelled out city, I said that exactly! But, when he spelled out the word, he said it like this: ce-i-te-i (Even though the word was right in front of us, and it was evident that there was a "y" at the end.)


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## Outsider

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Ok, so the name of the letter is different from its pronunciation. I get it. So, when you spell out the word "city", what do you say? (Although I know it's an English word, how would one spell it out do a Spanish-speaker?)
> 
> I would say:
> "say"
> "ee"
> "tay"
> "igriega"


In Spanish: _ce, i, te, i griega_, which is pronounced as "ceh, ee, teh, ee griega".


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## Artrella

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> YES, YES, YES!
> 
> Ok, so the way you just spelled out city, I said that exactly! But, when he spelled out the word, he said it like this: ce-i-te-i (Even though the word was right in front of us, and it was evident that there was a "y" at the end.)




He was wrong Venusita, the last letter is called "i griega" or "y griega" not "i".

"i" >>> i
"y">>> i griega o y griega

Saludos


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## VenusEnvy

Artrella said:
			
		

> He was wrong Venusita, the last letter is called "i griega" or "y griega" not "i".
> 
> "i" >>> i
> "y">>> i griega o y griega
> 
> Saludos



You'll have to understand my confusion.  When a Spanish-speaker corrects me, I usually believe that they are right!  I feel better now.


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## crom

Hi,
If you want to specify, it's possible that "i" is called "i latina", but "y" is always called "i griega" or "y griega" which is pronounced like in Spanish not in English.
So, you was right.

crom
"Please, correct me"


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## crom

crom said:
			
		

> So, you waswere right.


crom
"Please, correct me"


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## piloya

he might be a Spanish-speaker, but has he been educated in Spanish or English?


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## VenusEnvy

piloya said:
			
		

> he might be a Spanish-speaker, but has he been educated in Spanish or English?



Spanish, but it wasn't much of an education, apparently.


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## VenusEnvy

crom said:
			
		

> Hi,
> If you want to specify, it's possible that "i" is called "i latina",


Before this thread, I had never heard of that before. Why is it called "i latina"?


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## piloya

aha! good question.
Now, only guessing: "i" was the letter coming from the latin
"y" is called "y griega" but it should have been called "egyptian" since this is its origin, or so I've just found out on the internet.


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## LadyBlakeney

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Before this thread, I had never heard of that before. Why is it called "i latina"?



Hello VenusEnvy,

I am not a linguistic at all, but this much I know: the letter i in Spanish derives from Latin (Spanish being a "lengua romance", that is to say, it derives mainly from Latin), whereas the letter y derives from the *cyrilic?* (Greek) alphabet, whose influence is quite important in Spanish etymology.

Help me, please!

Is it *cyrilic*, *cirylic* or *cirilic*? I don't have any paper dictionary at hand and the on-line ones don't go that deep! I am referring to the Greek/Russian alphabet.

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Outsider

LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> Help me, please!
> 
> Is it *cyrilic*, *cirylic* or *cirilic*? I don't have any paper dictionary at hand and the on-line ones don't go that deep! I am referring to the Greek/Russian alphabet.
> 
> Thank you very much in advance!


Cyrillic. The Cyrillic alphabet, which is employed by Slavic languages like Russian, was based on the Greek alphabet, but they are different.

The letter _y_ was borrowed by the Roman intellectuals from the Greek alphabet. Latin didn't really need it, but it was used to transcribe loan words of Greek origin. That's why it's called "Greek i" in some languages.


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## piloya

Hi Lady B.,
I have just sent a message to the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española". If they don't know, nobody will. As soon as they reply, I'll send a message.


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## piloya

piloya said:
			
		

> Hi Lady B.,
> I have just sent a message to the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española". If they don't know, nobody will. As soon as they reply, I'll send a message.


 
Hi Outsider,
I got your message too late. I see you already had the answer. As we say, "a la cama no te irás, sin saber una cosa más".
thanks.


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## VenusEnvy

piloya said:
			
		

> As we say, "a la cama no te irás, sin saber una cosa más".



Oooh, I want to steal this quote!


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## LadyBlakeney

Hello,

Thank you very much Outsider and Piloya for your help!

Piloya, I would love to see what the Real Academia has to say about this, so please let us know anyway!


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## piloya

Lady B., of course, don't worry, I'll let you know.
Venus, about the idiom, feel free to steal it . it is used very often.


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## duder

I often hear younger people pronouncing the letter "y" as "ye" when spelling out words. Example:

mayo - eme - a - ye - o (as opposed to eme - a - y griega - o)

Thoughts on this?


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## Artrella

duder said:
			
		

> I often hear younger people pronouncing the letter "y" as "ye" when spelling out words. Example:
> 
> mayo - eme - a - ye - o (as opposed to eme - a - y griega - o)
> 
> Thoughts on this?




Yes, Duder!  We used to say "ye" when I was at school, some teachers teach that in that way, but some others say "y griega".  I like the latter better, because "ye" would be useful in our country only, since it is the pronunciation and not the name of the letter.


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## asm

If you want to know the difference for us, ask any Hispanic to read the following paragraph:

I do not have the yellow jello yet, but it's in the jet.

After you stop laughing at him/her you might understand a little better.
Ask them to pronounce word by word.





			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Ok, I have to ask this in English, sorry Spanish-speakers . . .
> 
> I was talking to a Spanish-speaker yesterday, ok, we were spelling. I pronounced the letter "y" like "igriega". But, when he pronounced it, he would say, "eee". I asked him why he pronounced it like "i", and he told me that "y" was called "eee-minusculo".   I have to admit, his logic didn't quite reach me. He also said that sometimes, people call it "doble l" (like: ll sound).
> 
> Can someone make sense of my situation? I hope what I've said has made sense to you all!
> 
> Thanks, like always.


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## LadyBlakeney

asm said:
			
		

> If you want to know the difference for us, ask any Hispanic to read the following paragraph:
> 
> I do not have the yellow jello yet, but it's in the jet.
> 
> After you stop laughing at him/her you might understand a little better.
> Ask them to pronounce word by word.



Of course, this "experiment" would only succeed if you make sure the "Hispanic" involved does not speak a single word of English and has never ever heard any of those words being pronounced by an English speaker, lest he/she may have retained something.

Honestly...


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## piloya

asm said:
			
		

> If you want to know the difference for us, ask any Hispanic to read the following paragraph:
> 
> I do not have the yellow jello yet, but it's in the jet.
> 
> After you stop laughing at him/her you might understand a little better.
> Ask them to pronounce word by word.


 
I completely agree with Lady B., I don't think my pronunciation made someone laugh, or so I've been trying all my years of study, but I must admit that paying attention to how a foreigner pronounces your language gives you a clue on how to pronounce certain sounds of theirs. It won't make me laugh, though.


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## asm

I works with almost everybody who "came late" to learn English. I was about to say in my original post that you should do it with people who do not have almost native accent. For the reasons you mention here, you were privileged because you learned English in such a way that pronunciation is not an issue. 
I do not agree with "does not a single word of English" if that were the case the experiment shouldn't work at all. it should be meaningless to that person.
I didn't want to offend anybody. You should be proud of your pronunciation

This experiment was made up for somebody else, and practiced on me. After this American laughed for a while she explained it to me, since then I have seen this works very well (her husband -of 25 years at least_ still has the flaw). If you ask the same to my wife, who is almost 100% bilingual you will not notice it, if you do it with my son, forget about it, now he speaks English better than Spanish.

It works!!!!! If not (for you), you could show off that at least the "y" and "j" sounds are done 



			
				LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> Of course, this "experiment" would only succeed if you make sure the "Hispanic" involved does not speak a single word of English and has never ever heard any of those words being pronounced by an English speaker, lest he/she may have retained something.
> 
> Honestly...


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## piloya

LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Thank you very much Outsider and Piloya for your help!
> 
> Piloya, I would love to see what the Real Academia has to say about this, so please let us know anyway!


 
Hi LadyBlakeney,
here you have the reply from the RAE to this old thread, but it's never too late to learn something new 



> La _Historia de las letras,_ de D. Gregorio Salvador y D. Juan R. Lodares, cuya lectura le recomendamos, indica que esta letra tiene origen griego (lo que explicaría su nombre por oposición a la _i_ del alfabeto latino) aunque se hubiese utilizado ya en la escritura hierática egipcia y formase parte de los alfabetos del Medio Oriente y del alfabeto fenicio:
> «Aunque no sea invento suyo, los griegos le dieron forma definitiva, la llamaron _ípsilon_ y la distribuyeron como cosa propia por otros alfabetos. El orden que ocupa en el latino, en la cola junto a la _z,_ no es un capricho del azar, responde a un hecho: los romanos incorporaron la _y_ a su alfabeto tarde (se naturaliza en el siglo -I), cuando al final de la cola estaba la _x_».​    El alfabeto latino la utilizó fundamentalmente para la adaptación de helenismos, ya que la_ y_ representaba «un sonido similar a la _ü_ alemana, como si en español fuéramos a pronunciar una _i_ pero pronunciáramos al final una _u_».


 
All the best,
Piloya


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## Robearsn

Hola. Alguien me puede explicar por que a veces se pronunica la "y griega" como "ll", y tambien a veces como una jota ingles? Yo suelo cambiar mi pronunciacion entre los dos, un resultado de haber ensenado por profesores de diferentes lugares.

Gracias.

- Robby

Lo siento, no he descubierto generar los acentos y otros simbolos.


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## supercrom

Robearsn said:
			
		

> Hola. Alguien me puede explicar por qué a veces se pronuncia la "y griega" como "ll", ¿y también a veces como una jota inglés? Yo suelo cambiar (mejor *alternar*) mi pronunciación entre los dos, un resultado de haber enseñado aprendido de profesores de diferentes lugares.
> 
> Gracias.
> 
> - Robby
> 
> Lo siento, no he descubierto cómo generar los acentos y otros simbolos.


 Hola Robby
Lo que sucede es que en las ciudades se suele pronunciar tanto la "y" como la "ll" como una "y griega" así como en el inglés el _*y*et_. En lugares alejadas de la ciudad se pronuncia (o conserva) la "ll", se hace diferencia entre _pollo_ y _poyo_. También existen otros sitios, como es el caso de la Amazonia Peruana, en que pronuncian una _ll_ e _y_ "fuerte", como en la _j_ inglesa (*j*et). Otro caso particular en en Argentina.

Si deseas los acentos u otros símbolos, haz clic aquí.

*Supercrom*


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## Outsider

Robearsn said:
			
		

> Hola. Alguien me puede explicar por que a veces se pronunica la "y griega" como "ll", y tambien a veces como una jota ingles? Yo suelo cambiar mi pronunciacion entre los dos, un resultado de haber ensenado por profesores de diferentes lugares


The pronunciation of the digraph _ll_ in Spanish varies from region to region. From what I understand, though, the pronunciation as an _y_ is widespread in Latin America.


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## piloya

Robearsn said:
			
		

> Hola. Alguien me puede explicar por que a veces se pronunica la "y griega" como "ll", y tambien a veces como una jota ingles? Yo suelo cambiar mi pronunciacion entre los dos, un resultado de haber *sido enseñado *por profesores de diferentes lugares.
> 
> .


Rob, 
la pronunciación de la "y" como la jota inglesa se produce más en ciertas partes de Sudamérica. Nuestros amigos del otro lado del Atlántico te han contestado muy bien. En España siempre se pronuncia como una "ll", en todos los casos. Antiguamente sí que se hacía una diferencia, pero con el tiempo se perdió. Igual pasó con la "v", que se pronunciaba como en inglés y la "b". Actualmente se pronuncian igual.


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## izzzi

Artrella said:


> Yes, Duder!  We used to say "ye" when I was at school, some teachers teach that in that way, but some others say "y griega".  I like the latter better, because "ye" would be useful in our country only, since it is the pronunciation and not the name of the letter.




Well, it depends of the country, because in some places it is pronounced similar than "jet", but it happens with "Y" and "Ll" adn it is called "yeísmo" so the letters might be called "ye" and "elle" (both with the same pronunciation) or may be called "y griega" and "doble ele"


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## XiaoRoel

Han resucitado este hilo y conviene decir que esta información que pego a continuación es errónea:


> la pronunciación de la "y" como la jota inglesa se produce más en ciertas partes de Sudamérica. Nuestros amigos del otro lado del Atlántico te han contestado muy bien. En España siempre se pronuncia como una "ll", en todos los casos. Antiguamente sí que se hacía una diferencia, pero con el tiempo se perdió. Igual pasó con la "v", que se pronunciaba como en inglés y la "b". Actualmente se pronuncian igual.


Lo aviso para estudiantes de español que lo puedan consultar.


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## elirlandes

"i" and "y" are vowels which served similar purposes in Latin and in Greek.

In English when we pronounce the names of these letters we say "ai" and "w-ai". 
For example, the bank (citi) and the urban area (city) are pronounced the same.

The pronoun for the first person singular ("I" in English) is "Yo" in Spanish and "Io" in Italian, but most peninsular Spanish accents have this sounding the same as the Italian ("i-o" to an English language ear).

In Spanish they are both considered a type of "ee", one is from latin ("i latina") and the other comes from greek ("i griega"). Because Spanish is a latin based language, the latin "i" is much more common, so the "latina" is often left unsaid. "y" is much less common in Spanish, and as such is almost always specified as "i griega".

On occasion you do here someone say "ee" for "y", and you might ask "¿i latina o i griega?". This happens especially when spelling foreign words or names.

As for pronounciation, in certain accents the letter "y" is pronounced the same way as the letter "ll", which can sound like the "dj" sound from English. For the first person singular pronoun "yo", this would sound like the English language name "Joe". Again, this pronounciation is also used by some for the spanish letter "ll".


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## XiaoRoel

En el mensaje anterior hay varios errores graves: 			 			 			 		  		


> "i" and "y" are vowels which served similar purposes in Latin and in Greek.





> The pronoun for the first person singular ("I" in English) is "Yo" in Spanish and "Io" in Italian, but most Spanish accents have this sounding the same as the Italian ("i-o" to an English language ear).





> As for pronounciation, in certain accents the letter "y" is pronounced the same way as the letter "ll", which can sound like the "dj" sound from English


Hay demasiados hilos sobre el tema para seguir dando datos aquí. El aviso de los errores va dirigido a estudiantes que pudiesen consultarlo.


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