# Rules and Exceptions



## Hutschi

Hi, in the German forum, we had discussions about rules and about exceptions in the language.

What is the relation between the two?

I think, we have two kinds of rules:

1. non-written rules we find by generalization 
2. prescriptive rules, we have to learn (either written or non-written rules)

Exceptions are not always strict exceptions, sometimes they are forms, I do not have a rule to describe it yet, sometimes, they are rules themselves.

When I want to declare something, is it better to go from the example to the rule or vice versum?

How far should I go with exceptions?

Best regards
Bernd


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## Kajjo

If language learners ask a relatively precise question, if favor to reply to exactly that question. I will reply in a manner that is most useful to the poster. If general rules exist, I will tell the rule and explain its application to the question at hand. If no strict rule exists, I will tell my personal opinion based on my experience and knowledge and indicate that I did so. I do not see any point in explaining eight important exceptions that do not have any relevance to the title question at hand. This repeatedly leads to confusion and irritation -- beginners need a precise and absolutely correct answer, otherwise they have difficulties in acquiring the fundamentals. 

If the thread turns out to focus on exceptions, I feel it is important to clearly mark the general rule. If something is true in about 99% of all cases, I will emphasise that. The remaining 1% should only be discussed if relevant and interesting. Exceptions should be clearly marked as exceptions and their range of application has to be explained precisely. 

I believe that it is dangerous to promote an "everything goes" attitude, only to dive into a multitude of exceptions and its justifications -- and often forget about the good old standard.

For example, in German it is possible to build sentences with a variety of word orders. However, one word order is predominant in the vast majority of sentences. If I am asked for a translation into German, I would give the standard order and would not explain all other rare possibilities. However, if I am asked precisely about possible word orders, I would mention all possibilities and rate them according to my native feelings.

Kajjo


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## cuchuflete

I get the feeling from Kajjo's post that German may be more precise more often that English.  Most of the senior members of the English Only forum address learners' questions (by first seeking context and background and then, finally) with a direct answer.  Other closely related usages are often mentioned.  These are generally labelled as formal or colloquial, or slang, or high or low register.  Regional differences are constanty discussed, as correct standard forms of the language vary between and within countries.  

Now and then someone decides to show off their erudition by trotting out unrelated material.  This is often confusing to learners, and so other members point out that some or all of what has been said is a rarity.


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## Outsider

In language matters, I adopt a statistical definition of "rule" and "exception". A "rule" is a pattern which repeats many times, though not necessarily always. The cases when it fails to hold are the "exceptions" to that rule, which may in turn be governed by special rules of their own.


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## Kajjo

cuchuflete said:


> Now and then someone decides to show off their erudition by trotting out unrelated material.  This is often confusing to learners, and so other members point out that some or all of what has been said is a rarity.


Thanks, Cuchuflete, for mentioning this. Such behaviour is unfortunately quite regular at the moment in the German forum. "Trotting out unrelated material" is nice wording!

Kajjo


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## gaer

Hutschi said:


> Hi, in the German forum, we had discussions about rules and about exceptions in the language.
> 
> What is the relation between the two?
> 
> I think, we have two kinds of rules:
> 
> 1. non-written rules we find by generalization
> 2. prescriptive rules, we have to learn (either written or non-written rules)
> 
> Exceptions are not always strict exceptions, sometimes they are forms, I do not have a rule to describe it yet, sometimes, they are rules themselves.
> 
> When I want to declare something, is it better to go from the example to the rule or vice versum?
> 
> How far should I go with exceptions?
> 
> Best regards
> Bernd


Bernd, in general too little information is preferable to too much.

Those of us who teach or have taught have all learned, from experience, that explaining "one more thing" is often "the straw that breaks the camel's back".

I favor trying to address the question(s) of the poster as directly as possible. You would be suprised how often other members will sense if something important has been omitted, and people who ask questions are often much better than you think at asking follow-up questions when they are unsatisfied with the information they have been given.

I think you have to experience seeing students suddenly lose confidence when given too much to process in order to understand what happens.

People who have not taught often "kill people with kindness". They are eager to help, but in the attempt to do so they "avalanche" students with information, and the result is frequently not only misunderstanding regarding what is being asked at the time but also a kind of "domino-effect" that makes them unsure of other things they have recently learned.

Unfortunately, knowing what to explain and what not to is a "feel". It can't be fully explained, but I believe you will understand what I just said.

Does this make sense? 

Gaer


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## Hutschi

Thank you. This is clear. 

One question:

In many cases, the rule might be unimportant, because the question is for the exception. Is it necessary to say, that it is an exception and give the rule in such cases?

Is it necessary to make a difference between descriptive and prescriptive rules?

Hutschi


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## gaer

Hutschi said:


> Thank you. This is clear.
> 
> One question:
> 
> In many cases, the rule might be unimportant, because the question is for the exception. Is it necessary to say, that it is an exception and give the rule in such cases?


I would say yes. It's not "necessary", but it is clear and helpful to do so.


> Is it necessary to make a difference between descriptive and prescriptive rules?


When possible, it helps to know what is being asked. Any question regarding "whom", for instance, may cause many problems.

When in doubt I try to give a presciptive answer using a prescriptive source, but I also try to mention when a "descriptive answer" may be equally important.

In the English forum, for example, we have members who mention rather strict, conservative rules that may or may not be supported by more descriptive sources such as the OED. 

Gaer


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