# Lady Muck



## philosophia

I came across this expression once or twice. I know it means "a woman who has pretensions of being of a high station" but actually isn't (Urban dictionnary). I can't come up with a good translation. The best I can think of is "_Princesse_" or "_la princesse_" said scornfully. Any better idea?


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## jierbe31

How about "Miss-je-me-la-pète"? Trop vulgaire ?
Après tout, on dit bien de ce type de personnes qu'elles pètent plus haut qu'elles n'ont le trou du cul, non ?


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## philosophia

Pas mal en effet. Quant à savoir si c'est trop vulgaire, aucune idée. Je ne sais pas à quel point l'expression "_Lady Muck_" est _slang_.


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## Suehil

'Lord/Lady Muck' is colloquial, but not really slang. It can be said in the presence of the fussiest of grandmothers.


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## philosophia

Thank you Suehil , then jierbe31's translation is too slang (I would'nt have said that in the presence of my grandmother and I wouldn't say it myself anyway). Still I'm still not satisfied with my own translation.


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## jacquesvd

jierbe31 said:


> How about "Miss-je-me-la-pète"? Trop vulgaire ?
> Après tout, on dit bien de ce type de personnes qu'elles pètent plus haut qu'elles n'ont le trou du cul, non ?


 
Est-ce que Madame "m'as-tu vue' se rapproche? Seulement, comment écrit-on 'vu' dans cette expression: vu ou vue, sachant que ce 'm' réfère à un COD féminin précédant le verbe?


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## Vickyx3

Miss "M'as-tu vue" ou "Pense bonne". Le second terme étant utilisé principalement par des ados. Princesse peut aussi être utilisé, non?


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## philosophia

I'm not enthusiastic about "_Madame/Mademoiselle m'as-tu vue_" because it means a woman who attracts attention, by her bad taste sometimes (we might say "_Mme/Melle Bling Bling_" nowadays) whereas Lady Muck means a woman who behaves as if she were upper class, as if she were superior to the people around. 
I didn't know "_pense-bonne_", I guess it's typically _québécois_. It sounds good but would'nt be understood on this side of the Atlantic (we have so little imagination when it comes to translations ).
Do we have to go back to "_princesse_" then?


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## jacquesvd

philosophia said:


> I'm not enthusiastic about "_Madame/Mademoiselle m'as-tu vue_" because it means a woman who attracts attention, by her bad taste sometimes (we might say "_Mme/Melle Bling Bling_" nowadays) whereas Lady Muck means a woman who behaves as if she were upper class, as if she were superior to the people around.
> I didn't know "_pense-bonne_", I guess it's typically _québécois_. It sounds good but would'nt be understood on this side of the Atlantic (we have so little imagination when it comes to translations ).
> Do we have to go back to "_princesse_" then?


 
I'm not sure that 'une m'as-tu vue' has necessarily bad taste like 'une Melle BlingBling'. I believe it is more a person who wants to show off believing she is 'better' or prettier. I agree it's not quite exactly a Lady Muck for which reason I wondered whether it was sufficiently close but I cannot think of anything better.

Now I wonder whether a Lady Muck is somebody who just behaves as if she were upper class or somebody who also thinks deep  inside herself that she is better.


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## philosophia

I said *sometimes *about bad taste.  I totally agree with your definition though.
Here are the 2 cases in which I read "Lady Muck" :
_Atonement_ by Ian McEwan : Cecilia Tallis, one of the principal characters, is called Lady Muck by her landlady. She actually _is_ upper class but works as a nurse because she has broken up with her family.
_London Fields_ by Martin Amis : the principal feminine character, Nicola Six, is called Lady Muck by the main masculine character, Keith Talent. She's definitely higher class and much more learned than he is. It's not an insult when he calls her Lady Muck.
In both cases, they don't behave _as if they were_ upper class, or don't think they're better (in Cecilia's case at least) : they _are _above the others. I'm not sure it answers your question. Plus I don't know if these two cases are representative.


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## Suehil

How about 'Madame la Comtesse de la Fiente' ?


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## philosophia

Nice try ! 
That's exactly the kind of name I'm looking for. Except it's not as idiomatic in French as Lady Muck is in English. I'm not giving up yet!


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## philosophia

Got it!
We'd say_ princesse_ or _duchesse_ or _comtesse* de mes deux*_ (no clue as to the origin of the expression). I definitely find myself brilliant tonight!
Thank you all for your help and good night.


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## Vickyx3

"de mes deux"!?!

It's really slang... and impolite.


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## jacquesvd

philosophia said:


> I said *sometimes *about bad taste.  I totally agree with your definition though.
> Here are the 2 cases in which I read "Lady Muck" :
> _Atonement_ by Ian McEwan : Cecilia Tallis, one of the principal characters, is called Lady Muck by her landlady. She actually _is_ upper class but works as a nurse because she has broken up with her family.
> _London Fields_ by Martin Amis : the principal feminine character, Nicola Six, is called Lady Muck by the main masculine character, Keith Talent. She's definitely higher class and much more learned than he is. It's not an insult when he calls her Lady Muck.
> In both cases, they don't behave _as if they were_ upper class, or don't think they're better (in Cecilia's case at least) : they _are _above the others. I'm not sure it answers your question. Plus I don't know if these two cases are representative.


 
You have convinced me that 'une m'as-t vue' is not a good translation because it always carries a negative undertone and a 'Lady Muck' apparently doesn't. I hope you'll find the idiomatic translation you're looking for, but so far 'princesse' seems to me the best try then.


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## Scrivener

my slang dictionary suggests _Madame de Grand-Air_


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## philosophia

Vickyx3 said:


> "de mes deux"!?!
> 
> It's really slang... and impolite.


 
I didn't find it that slang.
Anyway I like scrivener's proposition.


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## philosophia

I re-open my own thread because I came up with new ideas that could sound pretty idiomatic in French (unlike_ "Madame Pense-Bonne"_ or _"Madame de Grand-Air_" which are great translations but not idiomatic in France) and could be said in the presence of the fussiest of grandmother (unlike my previous proposition which wasn't so brilliant ).
In French, we'd say about a Lady/Lord Muck : "_elle/il se croit sorti de la cuisse de Jupiter"_, so I propose :
"_Madame J'me crois sortie de la cuisse de Jupiter"_. 
It's a bit long but I think it'd work pretty well in the 2 cases mentionned before. For a shorter translation, I'd go for "_princesse_" as suggested by myself and Vickyx3.
Anybody still interested ?


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## pylamy

Bonjour

Comme beaucoup de termes humoristiques anglais, Lady Muck est un jeu de mots, dans ce cas avec Lady Luck.

Littéralement, cela veut dire Madame Chance, on retrouve la trace de cet usage dans Robert et Collins

Lady [ˈleɪdɪ]*4.* _Archaic_ an allegorical prefix for the personifications of certain qualities Lady Luck
Ça me fait penser à notre utilisation en français de "Miss catastophe" ou "Madame-je-sais-tout".

Lady Luck pourrait se traduire par "belle chançarde" ou "miss baraka" ou "madame-j'ai-de-la-chance". 

Comme "muck" veut dire "boue", on pourrait trouver un équivalent humoristique autour de ce terme, en cherchant la rime et le clin d'œil.

- miss je m'la joue (sonne "jeune", mais pas top)
- princesse de mes fesses (là ça rime mais un peu trop vulgaire)
- baronne-du-caniveau (ça renvoit au côté sale et un peu loser de "muck", mais ça a aussi une connotation "vieille soularde")
-

Good luck !


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## xiancee

Je pense a un titre de roman de Chester Himes :  " La reine des pommes" Cela conviendrait il?
mais j'avoue que Madame de Grand-Air est une trouvaille!


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## philosophia

Merci à tous les deux pour vos contributions.

Bienvenue sur le forum Pylamy . Et quelle entrée !
En effet, j'ai construit "Madame je me crois sortie de la cuisse de Jupiter" sur le modèle de "Madame je sais tout".
J'aime bien aussi "Madame/Mademoiselle je m'la joue" ou encore "Madame je m'y crois".

Je ne suis pas sûre que "la reine des pommes" conviendrait au contexte. Pour moi, le reine des pommes désigne plutôt une personne qui manque de jugeotte ou que tout le monde prend pour une bonne poire.


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## LILOIA

Il me semble que la marquise de Grand-Air est un personnage de Bécassine. I think she really is upper-class.


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## philosophia

You're absolutely right Liloia. I've just found out (thanks to you ) that Bécassine works for "_la marquise de Grand Air_" who actually is upper class, she's a real _marquise_.
What bothers me for the translation is 
1) the name is now outdated and not so well-known
2) I think Lady Muck is more offensive than "_Madame de Grand Air_".

Still, it's a good translation, according to context as always.
Thank you Liloia and Scrivener who first suggested it (and whose slang dictionary is more learned than me !).


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## xiancee

Indeed but since "Grand Air" seems to be working as a literary reference (Bécassine!) It will fit quite well with Lady Muck!


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## akaAJ

pylamy must be correct that it is a play on "Lady Luck" (someone who brings good fortune -- "[Lady] Luck be a Lady tonight !], so, literally, "Lady Muck" would be the opposite.  I've never heard that expression, though, and the two examples in BE seem to indicate more that the Lady has descended into the muck to do good (McEwen), and possibly the same in Amis (with Amis, you never know).  The speculation around "Madame de Grand-Air" or equivalents seems to be off the mark.

That said, I would expect scrivener to know what he's talking about [hadn't seen the post],although he's not talking from personal experience.


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## philosophia

I'm sorry to disagree. In Urban dictionary's definition (post 1) as in the 2 examples a Lady Muck is a woman "_qui prend de grands airs_" and is considered to be muck by the others for some reason.
In McEwan's case, Cecilia Tallis tells her landlady to watch her language in the presence of her younger sister Briony, that's why the landlady calls her "Lady Muck" because she still behaves as is she were a lady whereas she's now only a nurse.
In Amis's case, Keith Talent thinks of Nicola Six as "Lady Muck" because she's more sophisticated than any woman he ever met and at the same time she enjoys dirty sex.
So "_Madame de Grand Air_" would perfectly fit if it was less old fashioned. In fact, it fits for McEwan's _Atonement_, the scene taking place in June 1940.


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## pylamy

Bonsoir,

Contrairement à Lady Muck, Madame de Grand Air est purement local (Québec) et n'est jamais utilisé en France et en Belgique.

En plus, Madame de Grand Air est trop formel et distingué par rapport à Lady Muck, que je trouve plus rude.


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## philosophia

"Madame de Grand Air" n'est en effet pas utilisé à l'heure actuelle (raison pour laquelle c'est Scrivener qui m'a appris cette expression), mais Bécassine était plus populaire en 1940, époque de l'action d'_Atonement_. C'est pourquoi je pense que la traduction pourrait, là, convenir, malgré les réserves que j'avais émises précédemment (message 23). En tout cas, c'est mieux que la solution du traducteur français : "Madame la souillon"...
Dans des contextes contemporains, comme celui de _London Fields_ de Martin Amis, il faut trouver autre chose. "Madame/Mademoiselle J'm'y crois/J'me la joue" ne me paraissent pas mal.


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## alecalgo

Much of the foregoing is based on the assumption that we are discussing the attributes and attitudes of a third person; a 'would-be lady' who goes around with her nose in the air, "thinking she is somebody grand."   
Whereas, in fact, it's the attitude of the person who is making the 'judgement' that should be examined.  This 'labeller' of others, is the sort of person who probably has not done so well in life, and is perhaps a little jealous ... there are zillions such ... and they are so very happy to tell you that so and so is behaving like 'Lady Muck'  ... 
Except that the term is not used these days (more the parlance of pre & post WW2 years).    Now, in this 'anything goes world', when we get 'effing & blinding' on the TV etc, the more civilised remark to be heard from ordinary folk would be ..."she is a right stuck up cow/bugger, her" ; or the older one "she's all fur coat and no knickers" .... and worse .... much worse .... you can forget about 'slang' and 'colloquialisms' 
cheers
alec


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## xiancee

Wow that was a nice way to put it! 

So let's stop " mucking around "  et finis les "grands airs!" Lady Gaga you said???


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