# B****



## gdbass64

does anyone know the translation of the word bitch   in japanese symbols

  - expression is used by some but not all speakers in a very relaxed situation. Such words should be handled with extreme care by the non-native speaker.


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## Flaminius

Hi gdbass64, welcome to the forums!



> *D*oes anyone know the translation of the word bitch in *J*apanese symbols?


We encourage using standard languages in all the WR forums. Here, standard English capitalisation is advised.  

Also, please include your question both in the title and the main body, of your post. Offensive words, however, cannot be placed _as is_ in the title (#20).

You can read our rules here. Article 22 pertains to the use of standard language.
Post early, post often...
Flaminius, Japanese Forum Moderator


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## jazyk

雌犬 (めすいぬ)


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## Anatoli

jazyk said:


> 雌犬 (めすいぬ)



Isn't "mesuinu" just a translation: "female dog", without carrying the offensive English meaning? Please confirm.


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## gaer

Anatoli said:


> Isn't "mesuinu" just a translation: "female dog", without carrying the offensive English meaning? Please confirm.


First of all, we have to make it clear that there are at least THREE meanings for "bitch":

1) female dog. (This is 100% correct English, although I have never liked the word. But it is used by people who breed dogs.)

2) "to bitch": to complain, Stop bitching=stop complaining. This is very mild, although it is certainly not polite.

3) bitch, noun, used in a very nasty way to insult a woman.  

It is necessary to be careful of which meaning we are trying to translate into Japanese.

I think we need to be very careful about learning and using words in Japanese that are equally rude, so it should be explained to us what the consequences are of using such words.

I have found at least three words that I think are used in Japanese and that are very insulting to women, but I would not dare paste them in here without asking for advice first from a "Japanese native". 

Gaer


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## Aoyama

*Baita* can be used, as a slang equivalent to prostitute .


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## jazyk

> Isn't "mesuinu" just a translation: "female dog", without carrying the offensive English meaning? Please confirm.


Of course it is.


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## Aoyama

But then, nobody would use *mesu inu *for a human being (as in _bitch_ in english). More over, one would rather say (I think) : kono inu wa mesu desu (not kono mesu inu ...).


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## jazyk

> But then, nobody would use *mesu inu *for a human being (as in _bitch_ in english).


Of course not.  Can't anybody see the smiley I used after my first post? I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking.


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## Flaminius

Jazyk, maybe "of course not" is a bit stronger allegation than what has been my impression.  While it is true that she-dog is not the traditional Japanese metaphor for a promiscuous conniving woman, _mesuinu_ has been tried as the translation for English _bitch_ for literary translation.

It is certainly not part of the colloquial register, so I am not sure if uttering it can be a very strong disparagement, even if the implication is correctly understood. For a word to be taboo, the speech community should not only understand its meaning but also recognise it as taboo.  One can intend a very strong insult with _mesuinu_ with the knowledge of English but it is not without the possibility that the insult may, for the hearer, reek of self-congratulatory, affectations air on the side of the speaker.

Ao has suggested _baita_ is a derogatory reference to a prostitute (which is true) but I wonder if it can be an equivalent of the English _bitch_.  It can cause a very strong reaction when uttered but not everyone seems to understand it.  I have known several young Japanese men who have never heard it or at least have have to take several moments to remember what it meant.  I can think of other words that sexually disparage women but none seems to be as wide-spread as the English word.


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## jorge_val_ribera

But _bitch_ isn't just used in a sexual way, is it? For example, I've heard _bitch_ used very often just to refer to an obnoxious woman. _Baita_, which apparently means something close to _prostitute_ wouldn't be appropiate in that situation, right?


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## gaer

jorge_val_ribera said:


> But _bitch_ isn't just used in a sexual way, is it? For example, I've heard _bitch_ used very often just to refer to an obnoxious woman. _Baita_, which apparently means something close to _prostitue_ wouldn't be appropiate in that situation, right?


We often use "witch" is place of "bitch".

"Wow, she is such a witch!"

The meaning is very, very close to the same.

I would suggest using any word or phrase in Japanese that describes a particular woman as being:

Cruel, snotty, nasty, mean, unpleasant, unreasonably bossy, etc.

By the way, we all know that men can act the same way. I want to make it clear that I am trying to define a word, not support it!

Sometimes one word, in one language, almost needs a paragraph in another to explain the nuances and useage of that word. Perhaps some of the synonyms I just mentioned will help our Japanese members find something that works!

Gaer


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## Aoyama

To go back to *baita* (a nasty word), it is true that many Japanese (especially young ones) wouldn't even understand it. That shows (if ever there was a need to) that _dirty words_ don't really _fit in japanese_ as they would in another language. It would be a mistake to try to "calque" (trace) words like bitch, whore etc in japanese. Even if those words exist, they would not be used in japanese as they would in, say, english.


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## gaer

Aoyama said:


> To go back to *baita* (a nasty word), it is true that many Japanese (especially young ones) wouldn't even understand it. That shows (if ever there was a need to) that _dirty words_ don't really _fit in japanese_ as they would in another language. It would be a mistake to try to "calque" (trace) words like bitch, whore etc in japanese. Even if those words exist, they would not be used in japanese as they would in, say, english.


I have to make one point. I would never ever disbelieve what the Japanese tell me about their country and their language, but I don't think you understand something very important about English.

Those of us who are polite and educated do not use nasty, hurtful words to describe people or to challenge them.

I don't call anyone a whore, a bitch, or even an idiot. Even calling someone "stupid" or "ignorant" is an insult I avoid at all costs.

Why do so many people think that it is 100% acceptable for someone to call another person a fool or an idiot in English? I think this is horrible. If someone called me a fool or an idiot, I would be very angry.

Don't accept what happens in Holloywood films as representative of all the people in the US!

Gaer


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## Aoyama

Right, I follow you on what you said.
 But when it comes to_*  don't accept what happens in Hollywood films as representative of all the people in the US !*_ I'd say that it is a tricky matter. I personally like Hollywood stuff, as an entertainement. This being said, who could deny the pervasive influence of foul mouth and violence "made in Hollywood" that penetrates the whole world, and here, especially Japan, through dialogue dubbing that , one way or another, have to render that foul mouth that is part of the _flavor_ of the movie in question.
Many _four letter words_ have become _gairaigo_ in japanese (for luck of  suitable japanese equivalents, that, if there ever were some, would sound strange). 
 Swearing in english is cool, one could say .


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## timpeac

Aoyama said:


> Swearing in english is cool, one could say .


Not in English speaking countries it's not.


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## Flaminius

As the original poster has not showed up for 15 posts, we are perhaps at liberty to clarify the extent of the topic ourselves.  I suggest we should discuss the most common Japanese words used to derogate women.

Now, slightly back to the topic;
いやな女 (iyana onna): literally nasty woman.  Can be used by anyone to any woman, if he so wishes.  This is the weakest in its taboo-breaking force of the three I list here.
ねえちゃん (nēchan): something like dear sister.  Used mainly by men to women who are younger than they.  Offensive grade I give is  .
くそばばあ (kuso babā): shitty hag.  Used both by men and women to women who are older tha they.  Offensive grade I give is   .

Flam


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## MarcB

I have heard Joro  as a loose woman.


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## Aoyama

> Swearing in english is cool, one could say .
> Not in English speaking countries it's not.


 Right ! I was just saying that using foreign words ( a distinct japanese _tropism_ that we know of) will make things look or sound _cooler_, because words _taste different_ when they switch from one language to another.
_Bad words_ should only be used by those who know what they're talking about .


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## gaer

Aoyama said:


> Right, I follow you on what you said.
> But when it comes to_* don't accept what happens in Hollywood films as representative of all the people in the US !*_ I'd say that it is a tricky matter. I personally like Hollywood stuff, as an entertainement. This being said, who could deny the pervasive influence of foul mouth and violence "made in Hollywood" that penetrates the whole world, and here, especially Japan, through dialogue dubbing that , one way or another, have to render that foul mouth that is part of the _flavor_ of the movie in question.
> Many _four letter words_ have become _gairaigo_ in japanese (for luck of suitable japanese equivalents, that, if there ever were some, would sound strange).
> Swearing in english is cool, one could say .


I was going to respond to this while at work. (I saved this message.) But it is getting too general. Let me just say one thing which I think is on topic. Every country has mean, nasty, insulting people in it. Every county has polite, kind, considerate people. This is the way of the world.

I don't believe that men are more considerate of women in Japan. Not ALL men of ALL women. Furthermore, I believe that there are probably just as many insulting words in Japanese to make women feel little, unimportant, useless, or worse. They may not be what you consider swear words or curse words, but that does not matter. It is quite possible to be cruel to people using words that are formal and correct.

This is not a Japanese problem, a US problem or an "any country" problem. It is a human problem. In my opinion.

Let me give you one example of how you can say something worse than "bitch" with no swear words. Consider this:

"You are a plain Jane with the personality of a mushroom, no talent, and you have no more intelligence than my cat. No one needs you. You are useless."

So is that any better than calling someone a "stupid bitch"? 

I don't think so. I think it is far worse. When clever words are used to make someone feel worthless, they often hurt more.

This is why we have to be VERY careful of understanding HOW words are used, not just what they mean. And this is what makes any discussion of "bad words" extremely complicated—and why different people have such radicially different views about which words are the worst. 

Gaer


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## Flaminius

MarcB said:


> I have heard Joro  as a loose woman.


Right, because 女郎, jorō, was one of the names/kinds of prostitutes in Edo Period.  I have never heard it in use except as a simile.  It is, by no means, a common word.

Flaminius


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## MarcB

Flaminius said:


> Right, because 女郎, jorō, was one of the names/kinds of prostitutes in Edo Period. I have never heard it in use except as a simile. It is, by no means, a common word.
> 
> Flaminius


Yes I have heard it in jest but never knew the origin. Interesting!


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