# Pronunciation of plural forms /lh / nh



## gvergara

Hi people:
How do you pronounce the final _s_ of the plural forms ?(_nuven*s*__, cançõe*s*, cidade*s*_) As well as that, I'd like to know how the consonant combinations _lh_ (does it sound li?) and _nh_ (does that sound like the Spanish _ñ_ or the French and Italian combination _gn_?) are to be pronounced. That's all, look forward to your answers

Gonzalo
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## Vanda

Hola Gonzalo,

plural forms ?(_nuven*s*__, cançõe*s*, cidade*s*_) - I'm not an expert in comparing Sp to Pt but I think you pronounce it the same way you would with Sp words ending in s. casa*s*. 


As well as that, I'd like to know how the consonant combinations _lh_ (does it sound li?) - like the Spanish *ll *- calle (European way). 

and _nh_ (does that sound like the Spanish _ñ_ or the French and Italian combination _gn_?) - well here we have some controversy. For my ears yes, it's like the ñ , but someone has discussed it here somewhere (I'll try to find it) and doesn't agree to that. Also like the Italian gn (my surname for example, a It one is proncounced like that)

We have Spanish natives here, Tombatosslas is an example, (also some others from other nationalities) who can explain that better for you.


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## Leandro

Hi, here in this very forum I've asked about the portuguese NH sound.
I thought it was exactly the same as the french GN or the spanish Ñ.

But it's not, the portuguese NH is exactly the same as the french GN, but the spanish Ñ is different.

Take a look at this topic

In the end of the topic we discuss about the NH and Ñ sounds...


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## Vanda

Leandro do you remember which thread was that? I couldn't find it....


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## Leandro

Vanda said:
			
		

> Leandro do you remember which thread was that? I couldn't find it....



Vanda, the link is at "look at this topic" , just click in it


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## ronanpoirier

Vanda,
do people still speak LL like our LH? I thought it had disappeared and now it's only like our DJ ;-)

Gvergara,
if this helps you, LH is a palatized L, that means that instead of touching the upper teeth, the tongue will touch the palate (that bone behind your upper teeth)... Here in Brazil when we speak N before I or before a final unestressed E or before an unstressed E which is before the stressed syllabe, the N will sound like Ñ (which is a palatized N).

Bye bye


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## gvergara

Hi again:
Thanks people for your valuable help. Thought it was easier, though. I'll take a look at the suggested link, bye

Gonzalo
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## Outsider

gvergara said:
			
		

> Hi people:
> How do you pronounce the final _s_ of the plural forms ?(_nuven*s*__, cançõe*s*, cidade*s*_)


It varies with dialect, but many Brazilians pronounce it basically as in Spanish.



			
				gvergara said:
			
		

> As well as that, I'd like to know how the consonant combinations _lh_ (does it sound li?) and _nh_ (does that sound like the Spanish _ñ_ or the French and Italian combination _gn_?) are to be pronounced. That's all, look forward to your answers


As near as I can tell, Spanish _ñ_ and French/Italian _gn_ are all pronounced the same way. 
As for _lh_, you can say that it sounds approximately like "li", but not exactly. Properly speaking, it's a palatal consonant -- the _old_ sound of "ll" in Spanish, which some Spanish speakers still use.

Fíjese.


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## pickypuck

I've always pronounced both ñ and nh the same and I've never received any weird looks whenever I cross a raia  

¡Olé!


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## Leandro

Pickypuck, Ousider, it's no 100% the same sound, it's a little bit different:
french/italian gn = portuguese nh
but both are different from the spanish ñ
They're "similar" but not the same.

I use to thought it myself too, that there was no difference 
Take a look at this phonetical article on the ñ, gn and nh sounds.

Wikipedia Article


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## pickypuck

I believe you   But let's say that for me it's just a question for phonetics fans  

¡Olé!


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## ronanpoirier

I think Ñ and Italian GN are the same and NH and French GN are the same because French and Spanish has nasal sounds and here in Brazil Nh would be a nasal glide /ji~/... but I think they all come from the same palatal N...

And for LH... palatal L for sure, just like Italian GL.


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## Vanda

> both ñ and nh the same ....
> But let's say that for me it's just a question for phonetics fans


Graças a Deus pickypuck! Estava começando a duvidar dos meus ouvidos.  Quer dizer que tem quem a pronuncie assim.


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## vince

Leandro said:
			
		

> Pickypuck, Ousider, it's no 100% the same sound, it's a little bit different:
> french/italian gn = portuguese nh
> but both are different from the spanish ñ
> They're "similar" but not the same.
> 
> I use to thought it myself too, that there was no difference
> Take a look at this phonetical article on the ñ, gn and nh sounds.
> 
> Wikipedia Article



The article says that Spanish ñ is generally the same as French/Italian/Portuguese, but that the Mexican ñ is pronounced like Russian нь.

I have also heard that some Brasilians pronounce "nh" as ~j, where ~ denotes nasalization of the previous vowel.
i.e. ganhar would sound like French "gant hiarre" (making up words here)

Is this true?


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## Chriszinho85

vince said:
			
		

> I have also heard that some Brasilians pronounce "nh" as ~j, where ~ denotes nasalization of the previous vowel.
> i.e. ganhar would sound like French "gant hiarre" (making up words here)
> 
> Is this true?


 Hey Vince. You're right. The pronunciation of "nh" as you described is called a "nasal glide." We talked a little about this in the thread indicated in Leandro's post above.


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## Outsider

Leandro said:
			
		

> Pickypuck, Ousider, it's no 100% the same sound, it's a little bit different:
> french/italian gn = portuguese nh
> but both are different from the spanish ñ
> They're "similar" but not the same.
> 
> I use to thought it myself too, that there was no difference
> Take a look at this phonetical article on the ñ, gn and nh sounds.
> 
> Wikipedia Article


I know that according to Wikipedia there's an offglide after Spanish "ñ" and Italian "gn" that Portuguese doesn't have. Sometimes, it does sound like that to me, but I would look for a more authoritative source before taking that for granted. In any case, the difference is very slight. I don't think it matters much in practice.


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## pickypuck

> I don't think it matters much in practice.


 
It doesn't matter at all. I speak Portuguese weekly or more often with natives (sou um raiano  ) and also lived in France. And I can tell you that I haven't ever had problems with it, received weird looks, etc. That is why I said in my last post that this was for phonetics fans  

¡Olé!


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## ronanpoirier

It has just occured to me that the NH sound in Portuguese sounds (at least to my ears) similar to the NG in English like in "speakiNG"... are there any relations?

P.S.: I was reading a book about Portuguese's linguistics and it said that depending on the dialect, NH may sound like Spanish Ñ or the nasal glide, and LH may sound like /lj/ or that other sound represented by the Greek letter _lambda _or even like a /j/ :-S


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## ronanpoirier

Another thing:

About the plural, I have noticed (especially in São Paulo) people usually doesn't pronounce the S, only in the article or demonstrative pronoun, etc. It's becoming French :-O


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## Outsider

ronanpoirier said:
			
		

> It has just occured to me that the NH sound in Portuguese sounds (at least to my ears) similar to the NG in English like in "speakiNG"... are there any relations?


A relation, yes: they are both nasal consonants. However, the _-ng_ of English is a velar nasal, not a palatal. Still, each is a good first approximation to the other, IMHO.



			
				ronanpoirier said:
			
		

> P.S.: I was reading a book about Portuguese's linguistics and it said that depending on the dialect, NH may sound like Spanish Ñ or the nasal glide, and LH may sound like /lj/ or that other sound represented by the Greek letter _lambda _or even like a /j/ :-S


I've read that LH is pronounced [j] in the _caipira_ dialect ("filha" --> "fiya"). So, we have "yeísmo" in Portuguese, too, although it's much more limited than in Spanish. 
I have never heard anyone pronounce LH as "ly", though ("filya"?  ).


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## Vanda

> I have never heard anyone pronounce LH as "ly", though ("filya"?


).

Ah, Out, that's because you don't live here. We have things  that even God Himself doubts!  

Ronan, _um chops e dois pastel.  _


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## Outsider

In which regions of Brazil is this pronunciation of LH heard?


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## Vanda

Well, I wouldn't know how to answer this one. In fact, I'm not sure if this is according to regions, I think it has to do with being or nor literate. I've heard some illiterate people saying that. .. Let's wait for Ronan.


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## ronanpoirier

And here I am Vanda ;-)

Well, I heard people talking on television doing that "ly"... That book I read, it showed the 3 different ways to pronounce and I was kinda impressed when I read that there is a difference between "ly" and that sound made by the Greek letter lambda (I thought they were the same) XD it also said if you pronounce Julho and Júlio in the same way, then you probably pronounce the LH as a "ly". I'm not sure where people speak like that... here they certainly do! And in Santa Catarina too... and São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro because I hear on TV news and soap operas!



			
				Vanda said:
			
		

> Ronan, _um chops e dois pastel._


I heard once on the radio once that the plural in the word Real should be used only after 10 and so on. Then we'd have _1 Real, 2 Real, 3 Real,..., 10 Real _and _11 Reais, 12 Reais... _Of course they were kidding! They were just making a joke about the way people who don't have so much education speak it. 

And Outsider,
/k/ and /g/ are velar sounds? Because when I pronounce the NH, my tongue seems to be placed like I would prnounce /k/ or /g/ :-S however, it seems to have another sound attached: senha would be spoken /sei~NHa/ (where NH is the velar nasal).



			
				Vanda said:
			
		

> We have things that even God Himself doubts!


I wouldn't be surprised if God Himself doesn't know how to pronounce ALL the dialectal differences from Portuguese hahahaha


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## Vanda

Hip hip hurra!!! Just found the Pt alphabet read by a Brazilian and a Portuguese native . Listen to it here. After the alphabet you'll find the vowels and diphthongs and the consonants pronunciation as well.

I've just included it in our Resources on the top of the Pt forum.


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