# All Slavic languages: numbers 5-20 and case



## Al-Indunisiy

Hi,

I have a problem with numbers and noun cases. 

If my memory serves me well, when using numerals 5-20 the noun takes genitive singular, and when using the numerals above them the noun takes the genitive plural.

Now, it would not be a problem if: 1) the phrase is in nominative, accusative and genitive cases since those functions can be known from syntax, and 2) the phrase uses prepositions since the function can be known directly from the prepositions.

The problem I have is when the function is dative, locative and instrumental cases. This is because their functions/meanings are determined from the case endings themselves. 

How would this problem be counter-acted?

PS. I also have the same problem with indeclinable nouns.


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## Awwal12

Um, couldn't you explain, which of Slavic languages are you talking about, please?.. ))


> If my memory serves me well, when using numerals 5-20 the noun takes genitive singular, and when using the numerals above them the noun takes the genitive plural.


In *Russian*:

1, 21, 31... 101, 121...
- a noun is in singular, case of the noun is the same as case of the numeral;

2-4, 22-24, 32-34... 102-104, 122-124...
- when a numeral is in nominative, a noun is in genitive singular;
- when the numeral is in any other case, noun is in plural and in the same case as the numeral.

all other numerals (5-20, 25-30, 35-40...)
- when a numeral is in nominative, a noun is in genitive plural;
- when the numeral is in any other case, noun is in plural and in the same case as the numeral.

(P.S.: obviously, in Russian indeclineable nouns have no plural forms as well, so there is no problem anyway)
(P.P.S.: and, of course, that is a rule for common numerals only; as for alternative numerals 2-10 for masculine animated nouns, rules of their use are a bit simpler)


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## bibax

> ... and 2) the phrase uses prepositions since the function can be known directly from the prepositions.


It is not so simple. Take into account that some preposition can take different cases with different meaning.



> The problem I have is when the function is dative, locative and instrumental cases. This is because their functions/meanings are determined from the case endings themselves.
> 
> How would this problem be counter-acted?


First, the numerals are declinable words, so they have dative, locative and instrumental case (although all forms can be identical, e.g. for 5).

Second, the nouns after numerals (> 1) are in plural dative/locative/instrumental as well (and not in genitive) - at least in Czech.


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## Awwal12

> although all forms can be identical, e.g. for 5


Well, but at least for Russian it isn't true: n - пят*ь*, g - пят*и*, d - пят*и*, a - пят*ь*, i - пят*ью*, p - пят*и*. Just a note. )


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## DenisBiH

For BCS:

In BCS paucal forms are remnants of dual that are used with numbers 2-4 and the word oba/ob(j)e and they may have different forms when used with numerals in nominative.

paucal of masculine and neuter nouns is today the same as *genitive singular* (tri radnika)
paucal of feminine nouns is today the same as *nominative plural* (tri žene)
paucal of masculine and neuter adjectives is same as *neuter nominative plural* (doš*la* su tri visok*a* radnika) *1
paucal of feminine adjectives is also same as *nominative plural* (doš*le* su tri visok*e* žene)

For masculine adjectives BCS paucal forms seem to agree with Slovenian dual forms as in _midva bova vide*la*_ 

As for the forms used with numerals in other cases, I don't decline those numerals very often so someone else may comment, but I guess it's the same as in Russian, in plural and agreeing in case with the numeral. The classification Awwal12 gave for Russian numerals (1, 21, 31...; 2-4, 22-24, 32-34...; 5-20, 25-30, 35-40...) seems to otherwise agree with BCS usage.

*1 For some reason the author of that Wikipedia article linked to above does not think so, but I don't see where the forms are different in form from neuter plural


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## bibax

I think that the original question is how to distinguish dative, locative and instrumental.

In Czech it is simple (even if one uses digits), the nouns after numerals are in dative|locative|instrumental:

Dat: 2 ženám, 5 ženám, 10 ženám, ...
Loc: 2 ženách, 5 ženách, 10 ženách, ...
Inst: 2 ženami, 5 ženami, 10 ženami, ...

The dative, locative and instrumental cases are not problematic as both numerals and nouns are in the desired case (as one would expect). The same is true for the genitive case.

There is a problem with the indeclinable nouns, of course, but they are rare in Czech.


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## DenisBiH

Regarding BCS, as I suspect Al-Indunisiy is inquiring about Bosnian, I'll quote Duya from here:




> However, in modern language (which I also recommend to learners), they are not declinable, and take the nominative form throughout. When there's ambiguity (such as in dative of _četiri žene_), the sentence is often rephrased.


This is regarding simple numerals from 2-4, I believe. For 5+, to quote Ranko Matasović



> Brojevi od 5 do 9 bili su imenice ž. roda (deklinirali su se kao i-osnove). Zabilježeni su primjeri deklinacije tih brojeva, poput stsl. o pe,ti ženo »oko pet žena«, no oni su uglavnom izgubili padežne oblike tijekom općeslavenskoga razdoblja.


So, at least for BCS, it seems 5+ simple numerals lost their declension during Common Slavic, and 2-4 still have grammatical forms but those are rarely used in everyday speech. As the numerals 2-4 themselves are not (or are rarely) declined in everyday speech, obviously the accompanying nouns aren't either. However, if they were, one should note that in BCS:

- dative and locative singular forms are the same, except for a difference in accent in a small number of words
- dative, locative and instrumental plural forms are the same 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

As numerals when declined would require plural forms, there is no way to distinguish D I and L by form of the accompanying noun or adjective then. Also, here is what the declension of numerals 2-4 should look like. As you can see, they also have the same forms for D I L. Some of these forms I would use (dvjema) some of them sound archaic (trima, četirima) or simply strange (dvama)

So to sum it up

Czech:



> The dative, locative and instrumental cases are not problematic as both numerals and nouns are in the desired case (as one would expect).


BCS



> The dative, locative and instrumental cases are problematic as neither simple numerals nor nouns that they qualify usually decline in everyday speech, and even if they did, dative, locative and instrumental cases of both numerals and nouns would look the same.


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## bibax

I think all West and East Slavic languages have distinct forms for dative, locative and instrumental in plural and using them after numerals is obligatory. The numerals themselves are declinable as well, although some have only two or three distinct forms (Czech: pět, pěti; Russian: пять, пяти, пятью).

Czech example:

Pět koček (N or A) poslalo pěti psům (D) pěti ras (G) pěti způsoby (I) pět myší (N or A).

_Five cats sent five mice to five dogs of five breeds in five ways._

Can be interpreted also: _Five mice sent five cats to five dogs ..._


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## Awwal12

2bibax:
This problem (the absence of difference between nominative and accusative) exists in many other cases as well, numerals are just one of examples. Well, at least in Russian.
сыр засыпал сор - it is unclear, either the cheese has strewed the litter, or the litter has strewed the cheese.
Also "молоко поглотило масло", "сон вызвал страх", etc (i.e. all cases where both subject and object are unanimated masculine/neuter nouns, and there is a simple transitive verb).


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