# l'art pour l'art



## Kumpel

As I understand it, the French phrase is used in German where the English would translate it. Even though it's not used, would you agree that my translation is correct.

_l'art pour l'art
art for art's sake
*Kunst aus Kunstliebe*_

Thanks all,
Lloyd


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## michamotor

Kumpel said:


> As I understand it, the French phrase is used in German where the English would translate it. Even though it's not used, would you agree that my translation is correct.
> 
> _l'art pour l'art
> art for art's sake
> *Kunst aus Kunstliebe*_



Das hört sich etwas trocken an, besser wäre

Kunst aus Liebe zur Kunst 
Kunst wegen der Liebe zur Kunst


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## Spharadi

Kunst um der Kunst willen


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## Sowka

Hallo 

"Kunst um der Kunst willen" würde ich auch sagen; von Liebe ist in dem französischen Text keine Rede. 

Und Wiki hat auch etwas zu berichten:


> *L’art pour l’art* [laʀpuʀˈlaʀ]  (frz. wörtlich: _Die Kunst für die  Kunst_, sinngemäß: _Die Kunst um der Kunst willen_, manchmal  auch lat. _Ars gratia  artis_) ist eine Redewendung. Sie hat die Bedeutung: _etwas um der Sache selbst willen tun, ohne  Hintergedanken an Anwendung, Geschäft, Nutzen_. Die Wendung wird auch  abwertend gebraucht für: _etwas Nutzloses tun_, _verspielt sein_.  Sie stellt somit die extreme Gegenposition zu jeglicher Kunstauffassung  mit zweckbestimmter, politisch-agitatorischer Zielrichtung wie bspw. Tendenzliteratur oder Agitprop  dar.


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## Kumpel

Aha, danke sehr.

Lloyd


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## Kumpel

Is _Wortfülle um der Wortfülle willen_ understandable?

Like, _la verbosité pour la verbosité_ (l'art pour l'art) or _verbositas gratia verbositatis_ (ars gratia artis).
Verbosity for verbosity's sake.

Lloyd


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## michamotor

Sowka said:


> Hallo
> 
> "Kunst um der Kunst willen" würde ich auch sagen; von Liebe ist in dem französischen Text keine Rede.
> 
> Und Wiki hat auch etwas zu berichten:




Ihr habt natürlich Recht, mit der Liebe und so 
ich hatte mich zu sehr vom ursprünglichen Vorschlag inspirieren lassen.


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## Kumpel

Oh, tut mir leid! 

Anywho, what d'you make of _Wortfuelle um der Wortfuelle willen_?


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## Frank78

Kumpel said:


> Oh, tut mir leid!
> 
> Anywho, what d'you make of _Wortfuelle um der Wortfuelle willen_?



It sounds a bit odd/strange.
I'd rather say "Wörter um der Wörter willen" oder vielleicht gängiger "Reden um des Redens willen". I'm not sure what the French sentence tries to say.


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## Kumpel

What I'm trying to say is like, verbosity for verbosity's sake - like, art for art's sake.

An autotelic kind of verbosity - it serves no purpose other than being what it is. Like autotelic art, or l'art pour l'art, it is just art for the joy/sake of art.


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## Cpt.Eureka

Aber bitte nicht vergessen, dass die Wendung "[Irgendwas] um des/r [irgendwas] willen" grundsätzlich negativ behaftet ist, da wir es eigentlich nicht mögen, wenn etwas zum "Selbstzweck verkommt", auch wenn die Kunst hier sicher eine Ausnahmestellung genießt.


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## Kumpel

Ihr mögt es eigentlich nicht, wenn etwas zum "Selbstzweck verkommt"?

I think I've misunderstood.


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## sokol

Kumpel said:


> Ihr mögt es eigentlich nicht, wenn etwas zum "Selbstzweck verkommt"?
> 
> I think I've misunderstood.



Well, you cannot generalise here - it is ambiguous to say that you adore "l'art pour l'art": some might think that's the way it is supposed to be, others however would say that's nonsense.
But I guess that's the case everywhere in the world. 

Artists usually would subscribe to the line "l'art pour l'art".
The Wiki quote given by Sowka really says it all - and isn't it like that in the English speaking nations too?


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## Kumpel

It wasn't me generalising.

I just want to use the phrase like _art for art's sake_, but _verbosity  for verbosity's sake_.
That is, autotelic verbosity; using an abundance of big words for no  other reason than the fun of using an abundance of big words.

_Kunst um der Kunst willen_ - art for no reason other than the joy  of art.
_Wortfülle um der Wortfülle willen_ - Verbosity for no reason other  than the 'joy' of verbosity.

(_Wortfülle _from dict.cc)

Lloyd


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## sokol

Well, sorry, Lloyd, but I fear "Wortfülle" wouldn't come over too good to native speakers. Possibly you could use "Wortgewalt":

"Wortgewalt um der Wortgewalt willen."

This of course is _not_ a standing idiom, but it sounds better at least to my ear - just wait what other native speakers think about this, or possibly someone can suggest something better.


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## Kumpel

How d'you like _Schwulst um des Schwulstes willen_?


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> How d'you like _Schwulst um des Schwulstes willen_?


Sounds really schwülstig.


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## sokol

Cpt.Eureka said:


> Sounds really schwülstig.



And funny. 

Lloyd, if you want to be ironic you can use that - good one!


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## Kumpel

Aha, thanks allerseits. All sorted then.


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> Aha, thanks allerseits. All sorted then.



No problem. Just one question, please.

Would you translate "l'art pour l'art" as "Art as an end in itself"?


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## Kumpel

Cpt.Eureka said:
			
		

> Would you translate "l'art pour l'art" as "Art as an end in itself"?



Um, no. It makes sense, but _art's for art's sake_ is much more understandable/idiomatic.


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> Um, no. It makes sense, but _art's for art's sake_ is much more understandable/idiomatic.



I also learned, "something becomes an end in itself" mostly has a negative connotation, while "sake" is mostly positive.

You can use "[Etwas] um des/der [etwas] willen" in both ways, depending on the "etwas".


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## Kumpel

_For someone's sake_ means like, well...

"I did it for your sake." - I did it to help you, to benefit you, for your benefit; something like that.


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> "I did it for your sake." - I did it to help you, to benefit you, for your benefit; something like that.



Right, so any construction with "sake" in it means usually soemthing good. It implies that "Art's for art's sake" has also to be soemthing good.

So it probably sounds weird to say "Power for the sake of power."

"Kunst um der Kunst willen" or "Helfen um des Helfens willen" is  usually something good. But "Macht um der Macht willen" is something for evil dictators and "Reden um des Redens willen" a thing for narcisstic people.


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## Kumpel

"I did it for your sake" isn't really positive...
It implies that you don't like what I did, even though I did it to help you.

Annoyed house mate - _YO MAN, WHY DID YOU KILL MY CAT?!_
Schizo house mate - _I did it for your sake... she was plotting to kill you._


Yeah?


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> "I did it for your sake" isn't really positive...
> It implies that you don't like what I did, even though I did it to help you.
> 
> Annoyed house mate - _YO MAN, WHY DID YOU KILL MY CAT?!_
> Schizo house mate - _I did it for your sake... she was plotting to kill you._
> 
> 
> Yeah?



So the shizo had good intentions, right? To protect his mate from a killer cat.


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## Kumpel

I suppose it's both positive and negative.
It depends whether you're the schizo, the ex-cat-owner, the cat, or Schrödinger.


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## Cpt.Eureka

Kumpel said:


> Schrödinger.



I'm with Stephen Hawking here.


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