# nicht etwa gedankenlos entstanden



## Löwenfrau

Hallo.

Ab und zu habe ich Zweifel an den Ausdrück "etwa". Hier nämlich:


"Aus der Existenz des Wortes hat man wieder einmal auf die Existenz der Sache geschlossen, als ob der ontologische Beweis zu den Instinkten der redenden Menschen gehörte. Und mir fällt eine Wortfolge Luthers ein, die nicht *etwa* gedankenlos entstanden ist; sie steht vielmehr gleich im ersten Artikel der wohlüberlegten und fast diplomatisch stilisierten Augsburgischen Konfession. »Erstlich wird einträchtiglich gelehret und gehalten..., daß ein einig göttlich Wesen sei, welches genennet wird, und wahrhaftiglich ist, Gott.«" Mauthner

1) "And I recall a speech from Luther, which haven't been conceived in a thoughtless way, it rather lays at..."
(thoughtless way = etwa gedankenlos)

2) "And I recall a speech from Luther, which by the way/ moreover haven't been conceived in a thoughtless way, it rather lays at..." (etwa = by the way/moreover) (etwa = überdies)

3) "And I recall a speech from Luther, which indeed/ actually haven't been conceived in a thoughtless way, it rather lays at..." (etwa = indeed/ actually)

4) "And I recall a speech from Luther, which haven't been conceived in a somewhat thoughtless way, it rather lays at..."
(somewhat thoughtless way = etwa gedankenlos)

which one is correct? More than one is possible here? Any of them could never be possible, because of the way the phrase has been constructed?
Thanks a lot!


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## Schimmelreiter

I take _nicht etwa_ to mean _we may rule out/it may be ruled out, _which I believe is tantamount to _certainly not_:

_And I recall a sentence from Luther, which he certainly did not formulate thoughtlessly._


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## bearded

Hallo
Die Übersetzung dieses Adverbs _etwa_ ist hier wirklich sehr schwer. Meine Meinung: es bedeutet ''zum Beispiel'' im Sinne von ''wie man glauben könnte''.
_Er ging aus dem Haus, nicht etwa um ein Bier zu kaufen_: nicht um - zum Beispiel - ein Bier zu kaufen / nicht, wie man z.B. glauben könnte, um Bier zu kaufen.
Ich glaube, im Englischen gibt es so ein Wort nicht. Ich würde übersetzen: a succession of words.. which actually did not have a thoughtless/hazard origin, but...
Maybe a more skilled translator can suggest a better and more suitable expression.

EDIT: SR's _certainly not_ ,which I am now seeing, is a good alternative to my 'actually not', although none of the two can fully reproduce the 'taste' of that _etwa.
Sorry, I wrote partly in German and partly in English, but all of you understand both languages after all..._


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## Schimmelreiter

I believe that _nicht etwa_ is used to demonstrate 
(1) either that one has considered an idea that one has oneself had, and found it invalid
(2) or that one knows or anticipates that others have an idea which one wants to rule out as invalid.


ad (1)
Example: _Er ist *nicht etwa* böse, wie ich selbst eine Zeit lang dachte, sondern er ist dumm.

_ad (2)
Example: _Er ist *nicht etwa *böse, wie manche denken (mögen), sondern er ist dumm.
_


As a translation, I suggested "certainly not" for the following reason:

 In the process of considering a certain idea, the respective person has achieved "certainty" that the idea is invalid and is, hence, to be ruled out.




So I believe Mauthner's underlying idea is:

_And I recall a sentence from Luther, which it would be quite wrong to believe he formulated thoughtlessly._


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## bearded

@ Schimmelreiter
It seems to me that you substantially confirm my interpretation _wie man meinen/glauben könnte (your no.(2). _I find your 'certainly not' a good translation, for the reasons you explained. Maybe 'not certainly' would be even better?


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## Schimmelreiter

Why? _nicht etwa_ expresses that something is *certainly not *the case, NOT that it is probably the case but just not certainly so.


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## bearded

You are right, SR, although it is a very subtle distinction. If I say ''a word order that had its origin, not certainly from...,but from...'' ,then not certainly refers to all following words- up to the comma -, just like 'certainly not', but I would find it  more expressive.  A different case would be if I said ''...that did not have its origin certainly from...'' In the latter case 'not' would only refer to 'certainly', and you would be 100% right.  Besides, I suggested 'not certainly' with the purpose of respecting the _Reihenfolge_ of 'nicht etwa'.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Why? _nicht etwa_ expresses that something is *certainly not *the case, NOT that it is probably the case but just not certainly so.


I am not so sure. I completely agree with your description here:


Schimmelreiter said:


> I believe that _nicht etwa_ is used to demonstrate
> (1) either that one has considered an idea that one has oneself had, and found it invalid
> (2) or that one knows or anticipates that others have an idea which one wants to rule out as invalid.


Neither of this has anything to do with adamancy but that is exactly what adding the adverb _certainly _would express. On the contrary: _etwa _adds vagueness to the clause in an attempt to exempt you from the obligation to substantiate why one should think Luther said this thoughtlessly as it doesn't matter anyhow. It is a rhetorical device to introduce a hypothetical counter-position you are going to demolish in the next sentence anyhow.

I find BM's periphrasis _wie man meinen/glauben könnte_ (=_as one might (be tempted to) think_) spot on.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> I am not so sure. I completely agree with your description here:
> 
> Neither of this has anything to do with adamancy but that is exactly what adding the adverb _certainly _would express. On the contrary: _etwa _adds vagueness to the clause in an attempt to exempt you from the obligation to substantiate why one should think Luther said this thoughtlessly as it doesn't matter anyhow. It is a rhetorical device to introduce a hypothetical counter-position you are going to demolish in the next sentence anyhow.
> 
> I find BM's periphrasis _wie man meinen/glauben könnte_ (=_as one might (be tempted to) think_) spot on.


You perfectly describe the difference between our two readings. You see _vagueness_ in _etwa, _I don't.

There's nothing _vague_ about *this* _etwa. _This _etwa_ resembles _beispielsweise_, it does not resemble _ungefähr_: _Wollte man beispielsweise einwenden, Luther habe gedankenlos formuliert, so wäre dies falsch. _


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> There's nothing _vague_ about *this* _etwa. _This _etwa_ resembles _beispielsweise_, it does not resemble _ungefähr_: _Wollte man beispielsweise einwenden, Luther habe gedankenlos formuliert, so wäre dies falsch. _


_Beispielsweise _expresses the same kind of vagueness I described above: It allows me to escape the need to explain why I would have mentioned _gedankenlos_ in the first place.


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## bearded

If the controversy is now between _zum Beispiel_ und _wie man meinen könnte_ (both proposed by myself in my first translation), then I would say there is not much difference between the two.
Going back to my example _er geht aus dem Haus, nicht etwa um Bier zu kaufen, _people might suppose he is going to buy several different things, _for example beer. _Well no, he is not going to buy beer, _as one might think._ So the two meanings of _etwa_ are very near to each other, in my opinion. In the original sentence, if that ''word order did not originate from a thoughtless formulation, as one might think'' or ''..did not originate for example from a thoughtless formulation'', the two translations have practically the same meaning.
Also SR's translation _certainly not_ , although not so literal, expresses the same overall meaning.


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## berndf

And what do you need the certainly for? For_Er geht nicht etwa aus dem Haus um Bier zu kaufen, sondern um einen Spaziergang zu machen_
_He leaves the house not to buy bear but to go for a stroll
_​is sufficient. I can't see what _certainly_ could possibly add that is also present in the German sentence.


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## Schimmelreiter

What's your translation of Löwenfrau's sentence? Do you, in the translation of a philosophical text, render _etwa_ as _as one might think_​?


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> What's your translation of Löwenfrau's sentence? Do you, in the translation of a philosophical text, render _etwa_ as _as one might think_​?


Providing an English translation was never the purpose of this thread but now that you request it (first rephrasing it eliminating the need for _etwa _and then translating that into English):


_Und mir fällt eine Wortfolge Luthers ein, die nicht etwa gedankenlos entstanden ist; sie steht vielmehr gleich im ersten Artikel der wohlüberlegten und fast diplomatisch stilisierten Augsburgischen Konfession._
_Und mir fällt eine Wortfolge Luthers ein, die nicht gedankenlos entstanden ist, sondern vielmehr gleich im ersten Artikel der wohlüberlegten und fast diplomatisch stilisierten Augsburgischen Konfession steht._
_And a sequence of words by Luther comes to my mind which wasn't created thoughtlessly but rather occurs immediately in the first article of the well thought through and almost diplomatically worded Augsburg Confession._


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## bearded

After the meaning of 'etwa' has been discussed here for days, I am a bit surprised at seeing how easily berndf wants to eliminate that word from the translation. I understand that he does not approve of SR's translation _certainly not_, but the word _etwa_ is there, and I feel that - respecting the text - some translation must be provided.  Now, several translations have been suggested: '' for example / as one might think / certainly not...'', and in my opinion the meaning of that _etwa_ has been clarified enough in this thread. Since the final translation, though, must be to Portuguese and not to English,  I would now leave it to the OP to decide which translation is most suitable , and I am sure Löwenfrau can find the best solution in her mother-tongue.


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## berndf

@BM: In my sprachgefühl, the _etwa _is only necessary because the second semi-colon is un-introduced. If you reduce the semi-colon to a comma and introduce it by _sondern_, essentially the same purpose is served. You can leave the _etwa _rhetorical device to re-emphasize the connection between the two commas but it is not necessary any more to convey the message. Adding adverb(ials) like _certainly not _or_ by no means _might then still be possible but, in my mind, adds a degree of adamantcy that is not present in the original text and leaving it out entirely is the lesser evil.


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## bearded

Alles klar, berndf, danke.  Deine ist also eine weitere mögliche Alternative.


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> @BM: In my sprachgefühl, the _etwa _is only necessary because the second semi-colon is un-introduced. If you reduce the semi-colon to a comma and introduce it by _sondern_, essentially the same purpose is served. You can leave the _etwa _rhetorical device to re-emphasize the connection between the two commas but it is not necessary any more to convey the message. Adding adverb(ials) like _certainly not _or_ by no means _might then still be possible but, in my mind, adds a degree of adamantcy that is not present in the original text and leaving it out entirely is the lesser evil.



But how is it then in another idiom?

_And I recall a sentence from Luther, which he certainly did not formulate thoughtlessly.

_If I simply cut off the "certainly", the phrase turns to have no emphasis...


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## berndf

that has been my whole point all along: whatever "etwa" expresses, it is *not* emphasis.


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> that has been my whole point all along: whatever "etwa" expresses, it is *not* emphasis.



Sorry, I missed something in your reasoning. So, you mean "etwa" doesn't have to be translated by any correspondent word, so I can simply cut off  "certainly" and not include any other word in its place?


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## berndf

I added "sondern" = "but" in the next clause instead. That is not perfect but in my mind good enough.This use of etwa sort of de-emphasises the clause it appears in in order to emphasise the subsequent one. That's also why this usage of etwa cannot appear without a subsequent clause.


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## Löwenfrau

I see. But don't you think that "by the way" is more neutral than "but" and, hence, more suitable?
In Portuguese I'd say "aliás". It's a sort of a way to add a remark in the sub-clause without giving any emphasis, neither positive nor negative.


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## bearded

Hello
I do not well understand whether your 'by the way' should stand for _etwa_​ (it is a possibility, but it would change the meaning:  a sequence of words which_, by the way,_ was not formulated without thought..) ,  or should stand for 'sondern/vielmehr':  the latter is not possible, in my opinion. I see it as a strong opposition:  nicht etwa....(sondern) vielmehr...., and here _ by the way_ instead of _sondern _would frankly be too 'weak'.


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## Löwenfrau

bearded man said:


> If the controversy is now between _zum Beispiel_ und _wie man meinen könnte_ (both proposed by myself in my first translation), then I would say there is not much difference between the two.
> Going back to my example _er geht aus dem Haus, nicht etwa um Bier zu kaufen, _people might suppose he is going to buy several different things, _for example beer. _Well no, he is not going to buy beer, _as one might think._ So the two meanings of _etwa_ are very near to each other, in my opinion. In the original sentence, if that ''word order did not originate from a thoughtless formulation, as one might think'' or ''..did not originate for example from a thoughtless formulation'', the two translations have practically the same meaning.
> Also SR's translation _certainly not_ , although not so literal, expresses the same overall meaning.



I was thinking, in this sense, why not use: "he didn't go out for something like [buying a] beer". And hence: 

_And I recall a sentence from Luther, which he did not formulate kind of thoughtlessly.

_I know this sounds too informal, but my question is: does the meaning of it conveys that of "etwa"? Because in Portuguese this solution wouldn't sound informal, and, if it is correct, I don't see why not using it... But anyway, I understand that it comes to the same as "nicht..., sondern..."
In English, "not..., on the contrary, ...." seems to me a fine solution too.


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## bearded

Yes, for me it is a possible solution, and it conveys the meaning of _etwa_. Anyhow, in the final translation it should really not be as informal as 'kind of' !
I had misunderstood you because in your #22 you wrote ''more neutral than but'', so I thought you would say 'by the way' instead of 'sondern/but'.  
Now I know better.  In English you could also say  ''which he did not formulate ,say, thoughtlessly, but on the contrary..'' (still informal).  I feel that you are approaching your goal.


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## Löwenfrau

bearded man said:


> Yes, for me it is a possible solution, and it conveys the meaning of _etwa_. Anyhow, in the final translation it should really not be as informal as 'kind of' !
> I had misunderstood you because in your #22 you wrote ''more neutral than but'', so I thought you would say 'by the way' instead of 'sondern/but'.
> Now I know better.  In English you could also say  ''which he did not formulate ,say, thoughtlessly, but on the contrary..'' (still informal).  I feel that you are approaching your goal.





thanks


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