# Urdu: adnaa ادنی



## Chhaatr

This thread is about _adnaa_ but I'm unable to get a humzah over _chhoTii ye_.

I am familiar with _adnaa saa insaan_ but does _adnaa_ also have a feminine version as in _adnii sii jaan_?

Thanks!


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## marrish

Hello,

Actually there should be no _hamzah_ but a "_khaRaa alif_" on top of "_chhoTii ye_": ادنیٰ . It's absence however doesn't change the meaning and is not important at all.

I didn't think about this earlier but I believe this adjective is the same for all genders and numbers:

_adnaa saa insaan - adnaa se insaan ko - adnaa se insaan aa'e - adnaa sii jaan - adnaa sii jaaneN - adnaa sii jaanoN ko_ etc.


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## Dib

Not to answer the original question, but to add a piece of interesting information:

I am sure real Arabic-knowing members will correct me here (I am not one of them), if I am making a mistake, but I believe, as far as Arabic grammar is concerned, the etymological feminine of أدنیٰ 'adnaa (masculine comparative-superlative/elative of دنيّ daniiy = low, abject, near < root d-n-w) is دنیا dunyaa, which however has been specialized in the meaning of "the (mortal, lowest, nearest) world", i.e. our world, as opposed to the heavens.


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## Chhaatr

آپ کے تفصیلی جواب کے بعد مزید سمالات کی گنجائش نہیں. 

بہت شکریہ


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Not to answer the original question, but to add a piece of interesting information:
> 
> I am sure real Arabic-knowing members will correct me here (I am not one of them), if I am making a mistake, but I believe, as far as Arabic grammar is concerned, the etymological feminine of أدنیٰ 'adnaa (masculine comparative/elative of دنيّ daniiy = low, abject, near < root d-n-w) is دنیا dunyaa, which however has been specialized in the meaning of "the (mortal, lowest, nearest) world", i.e. our world, as opposed to the heavens.


From one, who also is NOT a "real Arabic-knowing member", you are not mistaken.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Dib said:


> Not to answer the original question, but to add a piece of interesting information:
> 
> I am sure real Arabic-knowing members will correct me here (I am not one of them), if I am making a mistake, but I believe, as far as Arabic grammar is concerned, the etymological feminine of أدنیٰ 'adnaa (masculine comparative-superlative/elative of دنيّ daniiy = low, abject, near < root d-n-w) is دنیا dunyaa, which however has been specialized in the meaning of "the (mortal, lowest, nearest) world", i.e. our world, as opposed to the heavens.



This is right, but _*dunyaa*_ meaning '_the world we live in_' is  actually a truncated form of the oft-recurring phrase = _*al-Hayaatu al-dunyaa*_ = the nearest life (with a secondary meaning of lowly/lowliest), while most non-Arabic speaking Muslims believe the said expression means 'the life of this world', but as you can see it is a *man3uut-na3t* (noun - adjective) construction not a genitive one (no _*muDaaf, muDaaf ilayhi*_).

This accounts for the feminine gender of the word. Because, otherwise, synonymous words like *3aalam* aren't feminine.


@ marrish Sb. I have heard what you call *khaRaa alif* called* khaRii zabar*. Does this sound good/familiar/weird/hurtful to your ears?


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> This is right, but _*dunyaa*_ meaning '_the world we live in_' is  actually a truncated form of the oft-recurring phrase = _*al-Hayaatu al-dunyaa*_ = the nearest life (with a secondary meaning of lowly/lowliest), while most non-Arabic speaking Muslims believe the said expression means 'the life of this world', but as you can see it is a *man3uut-na3t* (noun - adjective) construction not a genitive one (no _*muDaaf, muDaaf ilayhi*_).
> 
> This accounts for the feminine gender of the word. Because, otherwise, synonymous words like *3aalam* aren't feminine.
> 
> @ marrish Sb. I have heard what you call *khaRaa alif* called* khaRii zabar*. Does this sound good/familiar/weird/hurtful to your ears?


You are right Cilquiestsuens SaaHib but you will agree, by extension one does end up with the meaning of "life in this world" as Hans Wehr also explains.

I am not sure if I have understood your comment "This accounts of for the feminine gender of the word". Well, "dunyaa" is assigned a feminine gender and that is why it is matched with the feminine noun "Hayaat".

This ye, as you are no doubt aware, is called alifu_lmaqsuurah or "The shortened alif". The khaRaa alif/khaRii zabar is added to remind us mortals not to turn "lailaa" to "lailii", as she is often known in the Persian speaking world. This pronunciation is not unknown in Urdu literature.

nah hu'ii gar mire marne se tasallii nah sahii
imtiHaaN aur bhii baaqii ho to yih bhii nah sahii

nafas-i-Qais kih hai chashm-o-charaaGh-i-saHraa
gar nahiiN sham3-i-siyah-Khaanah-i-Lailii nah sahii

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2228717&highlight=lailii

buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai!


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor said:


> You are right Cilquiestsuens SaaHib but you will agree, by extension one does end up with the meaning of "life in this world" as Hans Wehr also explains.
> 
> I am not sure if I have understood your comment "This accounts of for the feminine gender of the word". Well, "dunyaa" is assigned a feminine gender and that is why it is matched with the feminine noun "Hayaat".





Well, I was just referring to the grammatical construction, with al- in front of each noun composing it '*al Hayaat*' and '_*al-dunyaa*_'. This is not a genitive construction as **Hayaat-al dunyaa* would be... Which is by the way a very common mistaken interpretation. 

An other common mistake of the same _*qumaash*_ is saying and writing '*_*asmaa2 al Husnaa*_ instead of '_*al-asmaa2 al Husnaa*_', 

This mistake is most surely explained by people understanding the second word as a noun indicating the possessor while it is actually an adjective describing the first noun. This makes a big difference in meaning and : ''the nearest life'' creates a much more rich and powerful meaning than the flat : life of this world.


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## marrish

Cilquiestsuens said:


> @ marrish Sb. I have heard what you call *khaRaa alif* called* khaRii zabar*. Does this sound good/familiar/weird/hurtful to your ears?


It does sound familiar but it is also weird: *khaRaa zabar*. It was a slip on my part, I should have written *khaRaa zabar* because _alif_ is always "_khaRaa_"


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## Cilquiestsuens

marrish said:


> It does sound familiar but it is also weird: *khaRaa zabar*. It was a slip on my part, I should have written *khaRaa zabar* because _alif_ is always "_khaRaa_"



Right. 

You are therefore not used to see _*zabar*_ treated as a feminine noun ?


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## Qureshpor

^ I have always thought of zabar/zer/pesh as feminine but this could mean I have been wrong all the time!! Sign of being human!


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## marrish

It's worth checking - for me they are masculine but I heard them being used as feminine as well - perhaps due to their minuteness. The online urduencyclopedia says it's feminine with plural "_zabareN_". Never heard the plural form like this - I go for "_do zabar_".


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## Qureshpor

^ It would be "do-zabar" in the case of tanviin. But for the "zabars" in a word such as "m*a*rt*a*b*a*h", one would have to say..

 lafz "martabah" meN tiin zabreN (zabareN?)/zabar haiN...depending on if a zabar is perceived as feminine or masculine.


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## marrish

Right, "do-zabar" as a compound would be that but also "_lafz "zabar" meN do z*a*b*a*r haiN_" and as you said, _tiin, chaar_ etc. As I said before I perceive it as masculine.


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## aevynn

I find myself on this old thread after the below exchange! 


aevynn said:


> You are simply amazing and "adnii sii kaavish" is not even remotely appropriate for how helpful that was!!





Dinraat said:


> Haha it's pronounced *adnaa* sir.





marrish said:


> I didn't think about this earlier but I believe this adjective is the same for all genders and numbers:
> 
> _adnaa saa insaan - adnaa se insaan ko - adnaa se insaan aa'e - adnaa sii jaan - adnaa sii jaaneN - adnaa sii jaanoN ko_ etc.


Thanks, @Dinraat jii and @marrish jii --- it's good to know that this is the "invariable" usage is preferred!

Has anyone encountered the "declining" usage (ie, adne/adnii) in informal speech at all?

Also, if I might be permitted to expand the range of this thread: Has anyone encountered the "declining" usage (adne/adnii) in Punjabi?

[The declining usage (obviously) sounded pretty normal to me, likely because I've encountered it in speech before. There were few hits for spellings that clearly implied that the declining style was intended when I searched in the Urdu script, but they weren't non-existent. For example, the definition of _Tharraa_ found here reads "sastii aur ghaTiyaa qism kii sharaab jise 3amuuman adne darje ke log piite haiN." There are also various Urdu Twitter quotes that use a final baRii ye ("adne se warkar ko," "is adne insaan kaa," etc).  There were also hits for the declining style in Devanagari, mostly in informal Twitter-type stuff, but also in some literarily-minded texts, including some older and strongly Urdu-influenced texts like Chandrakanta.]


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## marrish

aevynn said:


> Has anyone encountered the "declining" usage (ie, adne/adnii) in informal speech at all?


Yes, _taazii_ likewise. Has a Hindustani touch to it, he he. Also, I wrote those words deliberately together ادنی سی and on top of it I avoided the _alif xanjariyyah_ _aka khaRaa zabar_  "ادنیٰ"


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## aevynn

marrish said:


> I wrote those words deliberately together ادنی سی and on top of it I avoided the _alif xanjariyyah_ _aka khaRaa zabar_ "ادنیٰ"


I suppose I walked head-on into this "trap" that you set up for me?


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## Qureshpor

aevynn said:


> I suppose I walked head-on into this "trap" that you set up for me?


No, aevynn SaaHib, you need not worry. I've been in touch with my mate Associate Professor of Hindi at Oxford University, Dr. Imre Bangha who tells me that after extensive archeological excacations at the site of the river mentioned in the Vedas and other Hindu sacred literature, namely "Saraswati", certain scrolls have been discovered concerning which he could not contain his excitement and called them, "The Dead Saraswati Scrolls". These have information in them on words such as "adnii", lailii", "taqvii", "3iisii" and more, perhaps from some Arab travellers in ancient times. He knew the poet Mirza Assadullah Khan Ghalib has employed such words in his Ghazals and that there is no way he could have got them from an Urdu source. He believes Mirza Ghalib's source must have been connected with the Saraswati Scrolls and he is thinking of naming the "bhaashaa" or "bolii" in which they were first used as "KhaRistani" or his preferred choice, "KhaRindi". After all, the dicovery *was" in "Hind", so this name has to feature somewhere.

For your information, the Ghazals that have such words are...

1.
نہ ہوئی گر مرے مرنے سے *تسلی *نہ سہی
امتحاں اور بھی باقی ہو تو یہ *بھی* نہ سہی

نفس قیس کہ ہے چشم و چراغ صحرا
گر نہیں شمع سیہ خانۂ *لیلی* نہ سہی

2.
دہر میں نقش وفا وجۂ تسلی نہ ہؤا
ہے یہ وہ لفظ کہ شرمندۂ *معنی* نہ ہؤا

کس سے محرومیٔ قسمت کی شکایت کیجے
ہم نے چاہا تھا کہ مر جائیں سو وہ *بھی* نہ ہوا

مر گیا صدمۂ یک جنبش لب سے غالبؔ
ناتوانی سے حریف دم *عیسی* نہ ہوا

So if Qais (MajnuuN)'s beloved "Lailaa" can be written and pronounced as "Lailii" and Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) known as 3iisaa can be written and pronounced as "3iisii" why can't in comparison an  "adnaa" word be written and pronounced as "adnii"!? [No even the Punjabis don't pronounce it as "adnii", for the simple reason that they are not as sophisticated as you, marrish SaaHib and of course Ghalib!]

If you still feel a bit bad about all this, then I can tell you I've been in a similar position as you, as I thought the feminine of the word "laRaakaa" was "laRaakii"! I take consolation from DaaGh's famous shi3r...

nahiiN khel ai daaGh, yaaroN se kah do
kih aatii hai Urdu zabaaN aate aate

In my case "aate aate" is "work in progress"!

PS: Readers, please take the contents of most of this post with a little pinch of salt!


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## aevynn

Qureshpor said:


> even the Punjabis don't pronounce it as "adnii"






Qureshpor said:


> I've been in touch with my mate Associate Professor of Hindi at Oxford University, Dr. Imre Bangha who tells me that after extensive archeological excacations at the site of the river mentioned in the Vedas and other Hindu sacred literature, namely "Saraswati", certain scrolls have been discovered concerning which he could not contain his excitement and called them, "The Dead Saraswati Scrolls". These have information in them on words such as "adnii", lailii", "taqvii", "3iisii" and more, perhaps from some Arab travellers in ancient times. He knew the poet Mirza Assadullah Khan Ghalib has employed such words in his Ghazals and that there is no way he could have got them from an Urdu source. He believes Mirza Ghalib's source must have been connected with the Saraswati Scrolls and he is thinking of naming the "bhaashaa" or "bolii" in which they were first used as "KhaRistani" or his preferred choice, "KhaRindi". After all, the dicovery *was" in "Hind", so this name has to feature somewhere.
> ...
> PS: Readers, please take the contents of most of this post with a little pinch of salt!


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