# Present Participle !



## babaz

Hello,

I've put a lot of questions in a previous topic about past participles in Hebrew.

I would now like to ask you about how to build what we call in English, French... present participles.

As in:

"I realized this by listening to his explanation. "

Thank you!


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## naamatt

In Hebrew there is only one present.
I'm listening / I listen -> Same thing.

הבנתי את זה דרך הקשבה להסבר שלו.


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## ks20495

> "I realized this by listening to his explanation. "



In this sentence, "listening" is not functioning as a present participle. In English, the "-ing" form of the verb has three functions: 
(1) It is used in combination with auxiliary verbs to form the progressive aspect (i.e., an ongoing action): "I am listening." "I will have been listening."
(2) It is used as a verbal noun: "Listening [i.e., the act of listening] helps you to understand."
(3) It is used as a present participle, an adjective that describes a noun that performs the verb: "The listening students watch the teacher." (a little awkward, but grammatically correct) "Listening to the teacher, the students hoped to understand more."

In your sentence, as you can see, "listening" is functioning not as a present participle, but as a verbal noun. That is why Naamatt correctly translated it as "הקשבה", which is also a verbal noun. 

In fuller answer to your question, Hebrew has nothing similar to the "-ing" verb form -- i.e., a verb form with the three functions above. 

As Naamatt noted, Hebrew has no progressive aspect at all.

There are, as we have seen, verbal nouns in Hebrew that function like "-ing" verbal nouns.

Finally (and this is the real answer to your initial question), like present participles in English, the present tense of verbs in Hebrew can function as adjectives. For example, "The listening students watch the teacher" = "התלמידים המקשיבים מביטים במורה".


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## Ambassador Charles

In Hebrew there are only 3 tenses, and verbs usually change depending on the tense. 

For instance, the infinitive *ללכת* (to walk), root ה-ל-ך (H-L-CH) 

Present tense, *male*: אני הולך (I walk/I am walking)
Past tense: אני הלכתי (I walked)
Future tense: אני אלך (I will walk)

[As far as I know, there is no difference in verbs in terms of gender at past & future tenses]


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## berndf

Ambassador Charles said:


> Present tense, *male*: אני הולך (I walk/I am walking)


Strictly speaking this *is* an active participle., i.e. a verbal adjective ("I walking"; Hebrew doesn't need a copula "is"). That is why this form is declined (masculine-feminine, singular-plural) and not conjugated (1st, 2nd, 3rd person).


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## babaz

Thank you for your answers.


ks20495 said:


> In this sentence, "listening" is not functioning as a present participle. In English, the "-ing" form of the verb has three functions:
> (1) It is used in combination with auxiliary verbs to form the progressive aspect (i.e., an ongoing action): "I am listening." "I will have been listening."
> (2) It is used as a verbal noun: "Listening [i.e., the act of listening] helps you to understand."
> (3) It is used as a present participle, an adjective that describes a noun that performs the verb: "The listening students watch the teacher." (a little awkward, but grammatically correct) "Listening to the teacher, the students hoped to understand more."
> 
> In your sentence, as you can see, "listening" is functioning not as a present participle, but as a verbal noun. That is why Naamatt correctly translated it as "הקשבה", which is also a verbal noun.


I'm sorry but in French, it's a French participle, or, more precisely, a "gérondif présent" :
"Je l'ai réalisé en écoutant son explication."
In fact, I could have written : "Ecoutant son explication, je l'ai réalisé."
But, in French, the "act of listening" isn't expressed by a present participle (-ing/-ant) but by an infinitive ("écouter vous aidera... etc.").

In "דרך הקשבה להסבר שלו", d"דרך" means "by" ?



> In fuller answer to your question, Hebrew has nothing similar to the "-ing" verb form -- i.e., a verb form with the three functions above.
> 
> As Naamatt noted, Hebrew has no progressive aspect at all.
> 
> There are, as we have seen, verbal nouns in Hebrew that function like "-ing" verbal nouns.
> 
> Finally (and this is the real answer to your initial question), like present participles in English, the present tense of verbs in Hebrew can function as adjectives. For example, "The listening students watch the teacher" = "התלמידים המקשיבים מביטים במורה".


How would you say :

"Understanding this problem, he could solve it."
"Comprenant ce problème, il put le rédoudre."

Thank you !


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## berndf

babaz said:


> I'm sorry but in French, it's a French participle, or, more precisely, a "gérondif présent" :
> "Je l'ai réalisé en écoutant son explication."


Exact! C'est un _gérondif_, pas un _participe_. En Anglais c'est la même chose : C'est un _gerund_, pas un _participle_._ Écoutant_ est un participe dans la phrase suivante: _La personne écoutant son explication est moi_.


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## Ambassador Charles

> In "דרך הקשבה להסבר שלו", d"דרך" means "by" ?


Yes. "By listening to his explanation-"


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## Flaminius

Hi,

What is the difference between דרך הקשבה and *ב*דרך...?  I always thought you need a -ב here like dictionaries say (eg, Milon Morfix):בדרך - by means of, via, by way of, through  ;​Having the preposition makes the sentence more grammatical, right?

Another question:
Whether it is _bederekh_ or _baderekh_ or _derekh_, does the construction always take gerunds as the complement?


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## ks20495

> Exact! C'est un gérondif, pas un participe. En Anglais c'est la même chose : C'est un gerund, pas un participle. Écoutant est un participe dans la phrase suivante: La personne écoutant son explication est moi.



Je pense que je t'ai compris...So, yes, that would be the difference I was highlighting, and apparently it's the same in French.




> "Understanding this problem, he could solve it."
> "Comprenant ce problème, il put le rédoudre."



I was considering putting this in my initial response...But, I decided against it lol.

So, like I said, the _beinoni_ can be used as an adjective. BUT, unlike in English or French, it must be adjacent to the noun it modifies. 

Because of that, to translate the sentences above, you need to use a different form. I would probably translate them as:
משהבין את הבעיה, הוא הצליח לפתור אותה
"מש" means something like "since". But, it implies both causality and temporality -- i.e., he could solve the problem both because and specifically after he understood it.



> What is the difference between דרך הקשבה and בדרך...? I always thought you need a -ב here like dictionaries say (eg, Milon Morfix):
> בדרך - by means of, via, by way of, through ;
> Having the preposition makes the sentence more grammatical, right?
> 
> Another question:
> Whether it is bederekh or baderekh or derekh, does the construction always take gerunds as the complement?



בדרך is OK...But, דרך is more common as a preposition. I would use "בדרך" more as a translation of "in...way". For example, "בדרך זו, פתרתי את הבעיה" = "In this way, I solved the problem." 

Just like its English translation "through", דרך can take any noun as its object. For example, "נסענו דרך מרכז העיר" = "We went through the center of the city."


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## Flaminius

תודה, *ks*.
מה שאני רוצה לדעת זה אים או לא יחולים להשתמש בבינוני באותו משפט של "דרך".
האים זה צודק לומר "פתרתי את הבעיה דרך שאני הבנתי אותה"?


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## ks20495

> תודה, ks.
> מה שאני רוצה לדעת זה האםאים או לא יחכולים להשתמש בבינוני באותו משפט של "דרך".
> האים זה נכוןצודק לומר "פתרתי את הבעיה דרך שאני הבנתי אותה"?



כמו שאתה בטח יודע, אחרי כל מילת יחס - ובכללן "דרך" - חייב לבוא שם-עצם. לכן אתה בעצם, אם הבנתי אותך, שואל האם קיימת צורה בעברית המאפשרת לנו להפוך פעלים לצירופים שמניים (noun phrases). התשובה לשאלה זו היא כן.

אלא, שיש כמה בעיות במשפט שלך. קודם כל, תחשוב רגע על הלוגיקה: לא פותרים בעיות *דרך* הבנה, אלא *בעקבות* הבנה או *הודות* להבנה. לכן, אני אציע משפט חדש: *פתרתי את הבעיה בעבקות....הבנתי אותה*.

סבבה. אז, בקשר לדקדוק, אני רואה שהשתמשת ב"ש" כדי להפוך את הפועל לצירוף שמני. בעברית, אנו בדרך-כלל משתמשים בצורה אחרת, שהיא "...זה ש" או "כך ש". "כך ש" קצת יותר פורלמי. אז המשפט הסופי הוא: "פתרתי את הבעיה בעקבות *זה/כך ש*הבנתי אותה." 

אני גם רוצה לציין, שכמו שאתה רוצה, לא ממש משנה מהי מילת היחס (דהיינו, לא חשוב האם היא דרך או בעקבות) ולא ממש משנה מהו זמן הפועל.


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## babaz

berndf said:


> Exact! C'est un _gérondif_, pas un _participe_. En Anglais c'est la même chose : C'est un _gerund_, pas un _participle_._ Écoutant_ est un participe dans la phrase suivante: _La personne écoutant son explication est moi_.


Mais la valeur de ce gérondif présent et de ce participe présent me paraît tout à fait semblable dans ces deux tournures :

1) Je l'ai réalisé *en écoutant* son explication. (*gérondif présent*)

2) *Écoutant *son explication, je l'ai réalisé. (*participe présent*)



ks20495 said:


> So, like I said, the _beinoni_ can be used as an adjective. BUT, unlike in English or French, it must be adjacent to the noun it modifies.
> Because of that, to translate the sentences above, you need to use a different form. I would probably translate them as:
> משהבין את הבעיה, הוא הצליח לפתור אותה


So, your sentence can be translated (litteraly) by : "From (since perhaps better ?...) his understanding, he could... etc."
Given the existence of the present participle in English, it would certainly sound like a paraphrase somehow.



> "מש" means something like "since". But, it implies both causality and temporality -- i.e.,* he could solve the problem both because and specifically after he understood it*.


Is there a way to express a simultaneity (as with a *present *participle) without using "bederekh" ?


ks20495, thank you for your excellent explanations : I couldn't ask for more...


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## ks20495

> Is there a way to express a simultaneity (as with a present participle) without using "bederekh" ?



Well, yes -- "כאשר" or "כש" (when).


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## babaz

ks20495 said:


> Well, yes -- "כאשר" or "כש" (when).


Ok, thank you !


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## Flaminius

Rav todot, *ks20495*.  Hakol achshaw bahir.


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