# Pronunciation



## Novac

Greetings to all!

I know there are many sources and guides regarding the pronunciation of Latin, even on the forums here, but there is an issue I have come across.

I have found that nearly everyone on the internet says the Classical pronunciation and the Ecclesiastical one differ, but it seems odd how everybody I know in real life, even Latin teachers, have told me that the Classical variant (c, g - always hard; v=w; etc.) does not exist/is incorrect. They seem not to have even heard about it; some were even genuinely puzzled when I told them how "Veni Vidi Vici" was supposedly pronounced in antiquity.

It looks like nearly every Romance language speaker I've met tells me the Ecclesiastical one is the correct pronunciation while the Germanic language speakers I have seen so far seem to say otherwise...

The conclusion is that I have no idea whom to trust because there seems to be an equally large number of people that support both opinions. How do I know the Church isn't right or that the Romans indeed pronounced "Caesar" something like "Kaisar"?...

Gratia for your attention!


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## Scholiast

And greetings as well as a welcome to Novac too.

The standard reference (in English) is to W. Sidney Allen's _Vox Latina_ (Cambridge, 1965).

From this it is clear that, if by 'classical' is meant the educated and literary language of Cicero and Caesar, yes, 'c' and 'g' were pronounced 'hard'; and yes 'v' resembled an English 'w'.

It is however likely (a) that the rhythms and intonations of the spoken language would resemble modern Italian; (b) that vulgar Latin tended   more than upper-class usage, even during the classical period, in the Italianate direction; and (c) that there were quite marked regional variations of accent (just as there are today—to someone from Milan, Sicilian or Sardinian may be virtually foreign tongues). 

But as Novac remarks, I too have met schoolteachers from Italy or France who, not knowing any better (!) would use the 'ecclesiastical' pronunciation. And in my own schoolteaching, for clarity and comprehensibility to students, I have tended to use an Anglicised pronunciation rather than pedantically to insist on Allen's principles, academically correct though they seem to me to be.

Σ


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## bearded

Novac said:


> nearly every Romance language speaker I've met tells me the Ecclesiastical one is the correct pronunciation


I like your 'nearly': as a matter of fact, there are exceptions..


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## Novac

Thank you, Scholiast! From what I have seen I actually presume this is a highly debated topic, though I honestly can't know for sure.

And, bearded, well, I always try to be open to exceptions instead of generalising. That 'nearly' is, indeed, important there.  In fact, this Youtuber called "Metatron" is a native Italian from what I understand and he agrees with the classical - ecclesiastical differences...

But it's frustrating how quite many teachers and people who have studied or remember what they have studied seem to say it shouldn't be like that, without even knowing there _is_ another variant to the pronunciation. They basically say the church one is right because that's how they were taught. I have met such individuals and so far most of them haven't really tried to be open to another explanation...


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


Novac said:


> From what I have seen I actually presume this is a highly debated topic


I very much doubt that among professional philologists there is much dispute here. And to my previous note here (# 2) I ought perhaps to have added that when I am reading Latin to myself (especially poetry), or on the precious rare occasions when I am called on to declaim it (as at an 80th birthday party earlier this year, in honour of a distinguished former professional colleague), I do try to conform with Sidney Allen's principles.
Incidentally, Novac, were you aware that right up to World War I, Latin was still in use for juridical and chancellery purposes in parts of the Austrian-Hungarian empire? I know this only from a fascinating series of enquiries here at WR from a Serbian scholar whom in some small ways I have been able to help.
Σ


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## Zec

Part of this confusion is, I think, that the question of Latin pronunciation is unfairly simplified to a dichotomy of "classical" and "ecclesiastical" pronunciation, while the latter is in fact just one of the many traditional regional pronunciations of Latin.

As another inhabitant of the former Austro-Hungarian empire, I can confirm that we used and still use a traditional pronunciation of Latin that differs from both the classical and ecclesiastical models (which is basically the traditional Italian pronunciation promoted to unify church Latin). In secondary schools, both the traditional and the classical pronunciation are taught, but the traditional one still prevails in practice - before the introduction of the vernacular language into liturgy, it used to prevail even in the church (my dad's old catechism teaches it, instead of the official ecclesiastical pronunciation). About higher education, I don't know since I'm not a professional latinist and haven't studied Latin for years - I should probably ask some of my colleagues.

I see the diversity of regional traditional pronunciations of Latin not as a bug, but as a feature, and regret that it is so rarely mentioned. I decided to post it here because it's possible that Novac is thinking about the aforementioned Austro-Hungarian traditional pronunciation when speaking of ecclesiastical, but I don't know for sure. How are the letters "c" and "g" pronounced in the Latin you were taught?

As for the classical pronunciation, I am fascinated by attempts to bring dead languages back to life, even if from a solely artistic perspective (regardless of all the potential scholarly mistakes - I detest the argument that "we don't have recordings of Latin so we will never know") - I wish there were more convincing recordings of spoken Latin that that which is available on Youtube, for example.


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## Snodv

The answer to this puzzle is, I think, simple.  The classical pronunciation has been _reconstructed _by the learned rather than handed down intact.  The ecclesiastical pronunciation is a later stage of Latin which is well on its way to becoming Italian, and it has been handed down  from speaker to speaker _after_ it developed out of an older Latin.  Evidence for the classical pronunciation includes, as one example, contemporary Greek transliteration of "Caesar" as KAISAP (Sorry I can't find a way to make the sigma in this program).
So, neither classical pronunciation nor ecclesiastical pronunciation is wrong, any more than French _chateau_ is wrong and Latin _castellum_ is right (or vice versa).  They simply represent different stages of development from different times.   So, Ah-way Maria and Ah-vay Kaesar can legitimately co-exist.


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## Snodv

Whoops, got that backwards.  Ah-vay Maria, Ah-way Kaesar.


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


Snodv said:


> Evidence for the classical pronunciation includes, as one example, contemporary Greek transliteration of "Caesar" as KAISAP


This is quite right. To which can be added that in Greek writers on Roman affairs like Dionysius of Halicarnassus or Plutarch, we can find not just Καῖσαρ for 'Caesar', but (for example) *Οὐ*εσπασίανος for 'Vespasian', alongside 'Βεσπασἰανος'—an indication of the sound-shift taking place in late antique pronunciation of the Greek letter 'Β' as well as that of Latin 'V'.
Σ


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## Novac

Hello there again!
First of all, thank you for sharing, Scholiast, what you have found out about the Austro-Hungarian Empire!  Wonder if, aside from the Vatican, there are any institutions where Latin is used, though.
Secondly, as for how were the 'c' and 'g' sounds taught to me, Zec, I must say we were told that, if before an "i" or an "e", they are pronounced basically as in Italian; that they are 'soft'.

Also, the evidence that Snodv and Scholiar are talking about seems convincing to me, but I presume I won't be able to convince my Latin teachers (or people in general) that the classical variant is correct too. So I think I will have to use the ecclesiastical version in classes, for example. Not that it is incorrect, it's just that I don't think the classical one will be accepted there.

Have a great day!


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## Zec

Novac said:


> Hello there again!
> First of all, thank you for sharing, Scholiast, what you have found out about the Austro-Hungarian Empire!  Wonder if, aside from the Vatican, there are any institutions where Latin is used, though.
> Secondly, as for how were the 'c' and 'g' sounds taught to me, Zec, I must say we were told that, if before an "i" or an "e", they are pronounced basically as in Italian; that they are 'soft'.
> 
> Also, the evidence that Snodv and Scholiar are talking about seems convincing to me, but I presume I won't be able to convince my Latin teachers (or people in general) that the classical variant is correct too. So I think I will have to use the ecclesiastical version in classes, for example. Not that it is incorrect, it's just that I don't think the classical one will be accepted there.
> 
> Have a great day!



Ah, so it seems you were taught the proper ecclesiastical pronunciation. The pronunciation I was talking about has /ts/ for <c> before <i>, <e> and <ae>, and /g/ for <g> in all positions.


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## Novac

Ooh, yes; there is this little audio file I have come across with some kind of Gregorian chant I think, singing "Pater Noster" and they did pronounce 'c' as 'ts'. I kept wondering why. 
Furthermore, I remember watching a clip about the Roman Empire where the pronunciation was closer to the ecclesiastical one but, again, the 'c' was pronounced like 'tz'.


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## fdb

The pronunciation of c as /ts/ before front vowels is long established tradition in German-speaking countries.


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## Novac

Thank you!


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## Scholiast

salvete de novo!


Novac said:


> Wonder if, aside from the Vatican, there are any institutions where Latin is used, though.


At Oxford University, the periodic _Encaenia_ ceremony (for the award of honorary degrees to distinguished individuals) always involves the delivery of a speech in Latin by the quaintly named 'Public Orator".
Σ


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## Novac

Thank you 'de novo'.


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## Scholiast

DGP OCTAGESIMO AETATIS ANNO FVNCTO

CVM HONORE AMORE AMICITIA

Fastos qui Populi Romani, Naso, canebas.
nunc adhibe arte tua, profer, ἐφημερίδας.
officio revocor, opus estque adiutrice Musa,
sicuti abhinc annis: da mihi quale canam:
sexaginta annis quondam te, Davide, functum
hexametris placuit tunc celebrare mihi,
aequales ut sint saeclo numerique canendo
aptenturque pares carminis atque pedes.
iam quoque praeteriisse alios denos bis et annos
natu aetate tua nos honorare decet:
octaginta igitur proprio pede largius apta,
exaequare annis dicere plura velim;
at vetat ‘octametros’ et mos et lingua togata:
βαρβαρόφωνοι essent, nec bona Musa sinit.
obex nam vati mihi permetriosius esset
addere Ovidianis versibus usque modos;
horrida ne tibi agam, turbem neu mente procaci,
(heus!) tales prohibet integra Musa iocos.
absint deinde ioci: procul absint carmine monstra
talia; Musa, vale: ius ita sorsque negant.
poscimur ad festum, sed dare dona vetamur:
quid tamen hoc curae? quid nocet arte mea
quisquilias offerre alias, quid laedit honorem
egregio laudes vel tribuisse viro?
accipe quos cecini versus, honorande magister,
qualia paupera sint, atque γενεθλιακόν.

You Ovid [Naso], who versed the Calendar of the Roman People Apply now with your art, make available, your ‘Diaries’:
I am recalled to the colours, and I need a Muse’s assistance,
Just as those years ago: grant me stuff to hymn with.

Your sixth decade, David, on that previous occasion,
It was gratifying for me to celebrate in verse of six measures,
So that the meter might match, equal and befit
The age we had then to commemorate.
Now too, that twice ten more years have passed,
It is right again for us to honour your birthday.
So for your eightieth, to compose in appropriate measure,
I would like more expansively to have formed matching eight-foot lines;
But tradition and the Latin language do not permit octameters:
They would sound barbarous, and the kindly Muse says no,
And it would be an affront for me as poet, and beyond metrical propriety,
To add to Ovid’s form extra feet;
Such horrid things may I not do, nor trouble you with cheeky intent,
(Heaven forfend!) as jokes like these the righteous Muse disallows.
So be there no such pranks here: from a poem, monstrosities should stay away Such as these. Farewell, then, Muse: thus justice and fortune command.
We are bidden to the feast, yet forbidden to bring gifts.
But what does this matter? What harm is there, after my style,
In offering other trifles, what hurt,
In bestowing tribute, honour or praise on a splendid man?
So accept these lines, honoured Master, that I have composed,
Howsoever poor things they may be, in lieu of a birthday present.


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## Kevin Beach

Zec said:


> Ah, so it seems you were taught the proper ecclesiastical pronunciation. The pronunciation I was talking about has /ts/ for <c> before <i>, <e> and <ae>, and /g/ for <g> in all positions.


I sang for 35 years with the Philharmonia Chorus in London. When we were performing Latin pieces for Germanic or East European conductors, we were usually required to use German pronunciations: "Gloria in Ek-tselsis Deo...", "Dona Nobis Pa-tsem" etc. But British, French and Italian conductors required "Gloria in eks-chelsis Deo" and "Dona nobis pa-chem".


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## Scholiast

Hello Kevin B (# 18) and everyone else:

Yes, I too am an experienced choral bass (RSNO Chorus, Edinburgh Festival Chorus and others), and can confirm this general pattern. To me it would be incorrigible to do anything by Palestrina or Monteverdi unless with Italianate enunciation, but Mozart's _Requiem_ calls for 'Reck-vee-em', and Bruckner's Masses likewise ('Dona nobis pa-tsem'), as KB's remarks suggest.

Amusingly, during a rehearsal for a Verdi _Requiem _I once found myself having to 'correct' Maestro Sasha Lazarev who as a Russian was probably insensible of these distinctions.

Σ


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## Kevin Beach

Scholiast said:


> Hello Kevin B (# 18) and everyone else:
> 
> Yes, I too am an experienced choral bass (RSNO Chorus, Edinburgh Festival Chorus and others), and can confirm this general pattern. To me it would be incorrigible to do anything by Palestrina or Monteverdi unless with Italianate enunciation, but Mozart's _Requiem_ calls for 'Reck-vee-em', and Bruckner's Masses likewise ('Dona nobis pa-tsem'), as KB's remarks suggest.
> 
> Amusingly, during a rehearsal for a Verdi _Requiem _I once found myself having to 'correct' Maestro Sasha Lazarev who as a Russian was probably insensible of these distinctions.
> 
> Σ


Interesting that our Viennese Chorus Master, Norbert Balatsch, would choose pronunciation according the the conductor. Giulini and Muti always got the Italianate version, but Solti, Klemperer and Masur wanted Germanic. Maybe Balatsch's Austrian background gave him a foot in both camps.


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## Scholiast

salvete noch einmal


Kevin Beach said:


> Maybe Balatsch's Austrian background gave him a foot in both camps


Maybe—or just contextual sensitivity to prevailing assumptions.
And on a related theme, one cannot but wonder what Herr Balatsch (whose surname sounds Slavic rather than Germanic) would have recommended, under a conductor of any nationality, for the pseudo-Latin of the Teutonic Knights in Prokofiev's fabulous _Alexander Nevsky. _I bet Prokofiev himself hadn't a clue.
Σ


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## Kevin Beach

Scholiast said:


> salvete noch einmal
> 
> Maybe—or just contextual sensitivity to prevailing assumptions.
> And on a related theme, one cannot but wonder what Herr Balatsch (whose surname sounds Slavic rather than Germanic) would have recommended, under a conductor of any nationality, for the pseudo-Latin of the Teutonic Knights in Prokofiev's fabulous _Alexander Nevsky. _I bet Prokofiev himself hadn't a clue.
> Σ


I can tell you exactly what he did, because he trained us for it and for Ivan the Terrible. The only variable, in fact, was in "cymbalis", which because a chunky "tsimbalis".

His surname is often spelt "Balaatsch". I wondered whether the origin was Hungarian. He is most definitely Viennese in his demeanour, though - a delightful chap.


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## bearded

Kevin Beach said:


> whether the origin was Hungarian.


Maybe from the Balaton-lake area..?


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## aefrizzo

Salvete omnes.
My personal experience (long time ago, Midhurst, WS or was it Easebourne?) is not so glamourous but I am still impressed. During a sight-seeing tour I bumped in a Church where an all male choir was engaged in rehearsal.
Some said "Dona nobis *patchem*". And the master immediately: no,no, "*pachem*"


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## bearded

aefrizzo said:


> no,no, "*pachem*"


You probably mean 'pakem'.  Otherwise, what other sound does ch represent? Is yours  English or Italian writing?


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## aefrizzo

It was a wannabe English. In Italian I would write: pa*cc*em  and pa*c*em, respectively. It was the first time, BTW, I heard a foreigner trying to distinguish simple from geminated Italian or Italianited consonants.


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