# Sanskrit, Tamil: Kumarakah/kumarakal



## john welch

I added the Tamil suffix -kal to "kumara-" and found the word exists. Probably it means _princes, young men, heirs_. However a comment on Sanskrit has the word as _babies_ but I can't find that in a  Skr dictionary.  Is that  a false comment and does "kumarakal" mean _princes, young men, heirs ?_


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## fdb

kumārá means ʻboyʼ, 'little boy', 'prince' in Sanskrit, from the Rig Veda onwards. You can find it in any Sanskrit dictionary.


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## john welch

oui mais c'est ne pas la question.


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## marrish

The plural ending is Tamil not Sanskrit and you should share your reference to "babies". Then your question and answers to you will sarisfy both you and the ones who respond to it.


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## john welch

*SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM - Prabhupada*

prabhupadabooks.com/pdf/SB6.3.pdf

... ; iisan-there came to be;    sapta-seven; ___________________*kumarakal*;-*babies*;____      te-they;     api-although; ca-also; ...
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Yes I knowi _-kal_ is not a Skr suffix.  I'm just double-checking to make sure that Tamil kumarakal is not  an abnormal , borrowed word in Skr.. Also I would like a definite answer that Tamil _kumarakal  has the suggested meanings.
Thank you._


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## mundiya

Therein lies the problem.  You are misreading "kumārakāḥ" as "kumarakal".  "kumārakāḥ" is a diminutive plural of "kumārá" and means "little boys" or babies in this context.  It's not Tamil.


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## john welch

OK thanks. So "dhanaka"  has  this type of diminutive plural, in Skr.
The implication is that "kumarakal" is the correct Tamil word-form. Could someone confirm that?


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## Gope

john welch said:


> OK thanks. So "dhanaka"  has  this type of diminutive plural, in Skr.
> The implication is that "kumarakal" is the correct Tamil word-form. Could someone confirm that?


Cher Monsieur, kumarakaL does not exist in Tamil. Tamil suffixes were meant for Tamil words, _à_ _l'origine_. 
-kaL, not -kal, is the plural suffix. It works fine for Tamil words: 'siruvan' small boy, 'siruvarkaL' small boys. Notice that even here, the final n of siruvan becomes r before -kaL. This is also not an invariable rule.
As mundiya ji has noted, it was not kumaarakal, but kumaarakaah to start with, which is the plural of kumaaraka, small boy.
It is necessary to study grammar to some extent to understand plural formation in Tamil and Sanskrit.


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## john welch

merci, 
*Koroshi dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koroshi_dialect
 The speakers of Koroshi live in scattered pockets in Southern *Iranian Fars* province. ... The *plural* is marked by the suffixes "-*gal*" 
-------
Persian Kamboja traders were in S India from 2300 BP. Perhaps they influenced       kumaarakaL .  Does the pronunciation sound like kumaarakull  as in "gull"?


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## fdb

john welch said:


> Perhaps they influenced       kumaarakaL .



Didn't Gope just tell you that there is no such word?

Anyway, the plural marker –gal occurs in several of the South-West Iranian languages. The received wisdom is that it derives from Old Persian gṛda- “people” (the development of –rd- to –l- is regular in SW Iranian). So not connected with Dravidian -kaḷ.


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## john welch

In #8 Gope wrote kum *aa *ra so I thought he was emphasising it is no pronounced kum *a *ra. As also he emphasised ka L is not ka l .
Her is one from Tamil Nadu:

*kumarakal - Beneficiary Details*

iay.nic.in/netiay/benificiary_detail.aspx?reg_no=TN-22-014...

District DINDIGUL. Block :KODAIKANAL.e : Beneficiary Name :*KUMARAKAL.
*

*If any of the Fars Baluchi and Devani speakers used -gal in Tamil Nadu, then isn't it possible that the final -l or -L came from that contact?*


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## fdb

The plural suffix -kaḷ occurs across the board in Dravidian. It goes back to proto-Dravidian and cannot be a borrowing from a modern Iranian language.


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## john welch

Then why is it that  " kumarakaL does not exist in Tamil."? Could you tell me the Tamil correct plural for kumaara?
"Epigraphically the Dravidian languages have been attested since the 2nd century BCE. "  This may allow for Persianl influence
 from a century prior to the recorded texts.


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## mundiya

There are a few results online for "kumarakal" (probably kumārakāla "son of the god Kāla/Shiva") and "kumarakali" (probably kumārakālī "son of the goddess Kālī").  In which case, neither has the Tamil plural suffix -kaL.


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## Gope

john welch said:


> In #8 Gope wrote kum *aa *ra so I thought he was emphasising it is no pronounced kum *a *ra. As also he emphasised ka L is not ka l .
> Her is one from Tamil Nadu:
> 
> *kumarakal - Beneficiary Details*
> 
> iay.nic.in/netiay/benificiary_detail.aspx?reg_no=TN-22-014...
> 
> District DINDIGUL. Block :KODAIKANAL.e : Beneficiary Name :*KUMARAKAL.
> *


I wrote aa for long a since I don't have the appropriate diacritical marks in my tablet. And I wrote L to mean that it is a retroflex consonant, written as ள், not ல். So I was saying kumarakal, குமரகல், does not exist in Tamil.


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## john welch

Yes. My memory is no good - I forgot that -gal is a Tamil suffix, which was my real interest.
Nepali has a similar collective -gal.  : Kumarigal and other location names. The info on word-shift to -gal was helpful. 
So then : kumaragal is the  correct Tamil plural?


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## Gope

john welch said:


> Yes. My memory is no good - I forgot that -gal is a Tamil suffix, which was my real interest.
> Nepali has a similar collective -gal.  : Kumarigal and other location names. The info on word-shift to -gal was helpful.
> So then : kumaragal is the  correct Tamil plural?


No, kumaragal does not exist in Tamil.


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## john welch

*பிரம்ம குமாரிகள் - Tamil*
www.valai*tamil*.com/brahma-*kumarigal*-video41-42-0...

*Buy Dangerous Girls 3 In 1 (Kolaigara Kumarigal / Kodura ...*
600024.com/.../dangerous-girls-3-in-1-kolaigara-*kumarigal*-kodura-kola...Tamil Movie DVD 

*Vasantham irandu part2 - tamilkam - peperonity.com*
peperonity.com/go/sites/mview/*tamil*kam/34479289
Makanaich chuttri oru *kumarigal* pattaalamae irunthathu.


?


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## Wolverine9

Just because a word shows up on Google doesn't mean it's correct.  Nepali and Tamil belong to different language families.  What is your objective in combining _kumārī _with_ -gal _or _-gaL_?


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## john welch

I agree about google and so I posted to double-check the false  Skr * kumarakal.
But google gives 5 "kumarigal" quotes, so some-one is using false Tamil, including  The Hindu :
*The Hindu : In Coimbatore Today*
www.thehindu.com/2004/03/07/stories/2004030710860300.htm
 Prajaapitha Brahma *Kumarigal* Eswarya Vishwa Vidyalayam: ... *Tamil*Nadu 


*Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center - About - Google+*
https://plus.google.com/100546705721044804490/about
Bremma *Kumarigal* Meditation Center . Colony Thoothukudi, *Tamil* Nadu ...
------
This thread may be closed if I venture too far into speculation.  *Kumara* is_ prince_ in Bali I*ndonesia. Cammeray i*s _comrades ,   *-*_*gal   *male collective suffix in east Australia.. 
*( Cammeraygal    : *tribal country of Sydney. )    So probably the theory relates to Tamil language of 500- 1000 BP.


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## Gope

john welch said:


> I agree about google and so I posted to double-check the false  Skr * kumarakal.
> But google gives 5 "kumarigal" quotes, so some-one is using false Tamil, including  The Hindu :
> *The Hindu : In Coimbatore Today*
> www.thehindu.com/2004/03/07/stories/2004030710860300.htm
> Prajaapitha Brahma *Kumarigal* Eswarya Vishwa Vidyalayam: ... *Tamil*Nadu
> 
> 
> *Bremma Kumarigal Meditation Center - About - Google+*
> https://plus.google.com/100546705721044804490/about
> Bremma *Kumarigal* Meditation Center . Colony Thoothukudi, *Tamil* Nadu ...
> ------
> This thread may be closed if I venture too far into speculation.  *Kumara* is_ prince_ in Bali I*ndonesia. Cammeray i*s _comrades ,   *-*_*gal   *male collective suffix in east Australia..
> *( Cammeraygal    : *tribal country of Sydney. )    So probably the theory relates to Tamil language of 500- 1000 BP.


But your original question is about kama*rakal*. And you are citing kuma*rigal* now. Kumarigal is an altogether different proposition.


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## john welch

I was asking about the correct Tamil plural. And still am asking.  If kumarigal is correct then why is kumaragal not correct?
 If kumarigal is incorrect then why are all these  quotes using it?


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## marrish

As our Expert on Tamil said, there is no such a word. Your examples are about brahmakumar*i*s = a religious sect. It's not a Tamil word, let's say it amounts to BRAHMA KUMARI'S in English where the English plural "s"  is added to a foreign word, a proper name.


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## john welch

Then if Brahma Kumarigal use that word  , then it is  is usable. Like these 2  that I posted:
*Buy Dangerous Girls 3 In 1 (Kolaigara Kumarigal / Kodura ...
600024.com/.../dangerous-girls-3-in-1-kolaigara-kumarigal-kodura-kola...Tamil Movie DVD 

Vasantham irandu part2 - tamilkam - peperonity.com
peperonity.com/go/sites/mview/tamilkam/34479289
Makanaich chuttri oru kumarigal pattaalamae irunthathu.
------
I*f a Tamil history book mentions 2 kumara, how would it express that plural ?
Another Tamil speaker tells me  that it would be kumarakal.
In English any foreign noun  (such a 2 Hindu:_ Hindus_ ) can be expressed.   So please , why is it so complex to say : " 2 kumara " in Tami.?


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## marrish

I can see that in both links it is still kumar*i. Not kumara.

*The rest about kumara and a Tamil history book and plural I can't answer. I am not conversant with Tamil. Perhaps when kumara is taken as a foreign word the Tamil suffix can be used to make a plural. Let's wait for Mr. Gope's explanation.


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## john welch

Yes I will wait.
It seems that you suggest that for example  " 2 Maharani" can be spoken by  Tamil people  but not the  word  " 2 Maharaja ".......


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## marrish

I'll wait too. I don't know Tamil, only Sanskrit. I think Tamil has its own words for both maharaja and maharani. Those examples with kumaarii are not equivalent to maharani because they are not just feminine of _kumaar_. It's brahma kumaarii = an adjective or an adjectival noun and it is a proper name here from Sanskrit which is used in Tamil.


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## john welch

*Maharaja* (2011 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Maharaja*_(2011_film)







*Maharaja* is a *Tamil* film directed by Manoharan.
------
If you bought 2 DVD-gal of Maharaj-gal you would be very fortunate..


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## Gope

marrish said:


> I can see that in both links it is still kumar*i. Not kumara.
> 
> *The rest about kumara and a Tamil history book and plural I can't answer. I am not conversant with Tamil. Perhaps when kumara is taken as a foreign word the Tamil suffix can be used to make a plural. Let's wait for Mr. Gope's explanation.


I am absolutely in the dark about how much Monsieur John Welch is aquainted with Tamil language, so I am hoping to make things as easy as possible. Kumaara is a Sanskrit word. When and if used in Tamil it takes the Tamil nominative (singular) ending -n and becomes kumaaran. But when adding the plural suffix -kaL the final n of kumaaran changes to r  and kumaararkaL is the plural of kumaaran. Although written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL. Even proper names change in this way: Raama-Raaman-RaamarkaL, pron. as RaamargaL. Same with Sankara, and so on.
Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too. If used in Tamil their plurals are MahaaraajaakkaL, and mahaaraaNikaL. Notice the -kk- in mahaaraajaakkaL, which means the k is pronounced as k, but in mahaaraaNikaL the k is pronounced as G.
In short, there are "if ... then" rules to be learnt for correctly formulating plurals and to pronounce them correctly. In Tamil the letter k is pronounced both as k and as g, the letter T is pronounced both as T and as D, and so on (there are "if ... then" rules here too).


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## john welch

eh bien beaucoup Gope. Your answer is exactly what I hoped it would be.
" ..written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL.,,"
Magnifique.


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## mundiya

Excellent post, Gope jii.  So, for "kumaarii" would I be right in guessing that the Tamil plural is "kumaarikaL" (pronounced "kumaarigaL")?


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## john welch

Excellent post mundiyaji.
:  "Excellent post, Gope jii. So, for "kumaarii" would I be right in guessing that the Tamil plural is "kumaarikaL" (pronounced "kumaarigaL")?"


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## Gope

Thanks very much, Monsieur Welch, and mundiyaji.  I am glad my post was helpful.
You both are absolutely right: kumaarii the Sanskrit word becomes kumaari (short i) in Tamil, and the plural is kumaarikal, pronounced kumaarigaL.


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## john welch

*Types of Pranāma*




A Mohiniattam dancer making anamaste gesture​
There are six types of Pranam:


Ashtangana (touching the ground with knees, belly, chest, hands, elbows, chin, nose, temple).
Shastanga (touching the ground with toes, knees, hands, chin, nose).
Panchanga (touching the ground with knees, chest, chin, temple, forehead).
Dandavata (bowing forehead down and touching the ground).
Namaskar (folded hands touching the forehead).
Abhinandan (bending forward with folded hands touching the chest).-
-------------
गोप्य



मान्द्य


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## Dib

Sorry guys, I don't mean to interrupt your flow. Just a tiny, maybe even inconsequential correction:



Gope said:


> Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too.



Actually, mahaaraanii is not (proper) Sanskrit. The "raanii/raaNii" part is modern IA. The proper Sanskrit feminine of "raajaa" is "raaj*ñii**".*


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## Wolverine9

Gope said:


> kumaarii the Sanskrit word becomes kumaari (short i) in Tamil, and the plural is kumaarikal, pronounced kumaarigaL.



Thanks for the information, Gope.  This is probably a typo, but just to make sure, is the word supposed to be kumaarikaL instead of kumaarikal?


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## Gope

Wolverine9 said:


> Thanks for the information, Gope.  This is probably a typo, but just to make sure, is the word supposed to be kumaarikaL instead of kumaarikal?


You are right, it is kumaarikaL, not -kal


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## Gope

Dib said:


> Sorry guys, I don't mean to interrupt your flow. Just a tiny, maybe even inconsequential correction:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, mahaaraanii is not (proper) Sanskrit. The "raanii/raaNii" part is modern IA. The proper Sanskrit feminine of "raajaa" is "raaj*ñii**".*


Thanks for the timely precision, Dib SaaHib, it is indeed as you have pointed out. I should have said "mahaaraanii is of Sanskritic origin" instead of "mahaaraanii is a Sanskrit word".


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## sanskrut_bhashik

Kumar is basically Sanskrit. -kal, -gal is plural suffix in Dravidian languages of south India.

 There are many words in Tamil,(even more in) other Dravidian languages which are from Sanskrit.

 E..g. Varsh (year) - not Varsha (rain),is Sanskrit, "Varshangal/varshankal" in Dravidian languages means "years". 

I do not know whether Kumarakal is a word in Tamil. But it could be derived as explained earlier. How commonly "kumarakal" is used in Tamil, I am not aware.

But Kumar has synonym in Sanskrit-derived languages, i.e. "Kuvara, kuvari". It may be of Prakrit origin or even from Tamil or other Dravidian languages.

Kuvara/kuvari stands for unmarried/virgin boy/girl. This word is very common in many north Indian languages. So common that many Bollywood uses this word in every other song.


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## sanskrut_bhashik

Moreover, Kumar/Kumari is very common "name" or part of name of a person. E.g. Kumar Sanu, where Kumar is first name. Ashok Kumar, Ravikumar Sharma where it is a part of name. It can be last name also.


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## Dib

sanskrut_bhashik said:


> Moreover, Kumar/Kumari is very common "name" or part of name of a person. E.g. Kumar Sanu, where Kumar is first name.



Actually, Kumar Sanu is not a good example. It is just a stage name of Kedarnath Bhattacharya.


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## mundiya

I don't consider "kumaara" and "ku.nvaaraa" to be exact synonyms.  "kumaara" has a wider range in meaning.

Also, Gope jii has explained that the word in Tamil is "kumaararkaL" and not "kumarakal".


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## sanskrut_bhashik

Kumar in Sanskrit is commonly for young men, esp. Unmarried. For babies, I am not sure if this word is used , if used it is very infrequent. 'Shishu' is more commonly used for babies.


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## sanskrut_bhashik

I could not think of a better example.


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## mundiya

"kumaara" is also for the god Skanda, the god Agni, a son, and a prince.  The latter is probably the meaning in mind when used as a name nowadays.


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## sanskrut_bhashik

mundiya said:


> I don't consider "kumaara" and "ku.nvaaraa" to be exact synonyms.  "kumaara" has a wider range in meaning.
> 
> Also, Gope jii has explained that the word in Tamil is "kumaararkaL" and not "kumarakal".



Yes, not exact meanings. But they specify same object i.e. young male.

It has been explaned nicely earlier. I skipped it.

Also, Sanskrit is notorious for completely unrelated meanings of the same word.


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## sanskrut_bhashik

Gope said:


> I am absolutely in the dark about how much Monsieur John Welch is aquainted with Tamil language, so I am hoping to make things as easy as possible. Kumaara is a Sanskrit word. When and if used in Tamil it takes the Tamil nominative (singular) ending -n and becomes kumaaran. But when adding the plural suffix -kaL the final n of kumaaran changes to r  and kumaararkaL is the plural of kumaaran. Although written as kumaararkaL, the pronunciation is kumaarargaL. Even proper names change in this way: Raama-Raaman-RaamarkaL, pron. as RaamargaL. Same with Sankara, and so on.
> Mahaaraajaa is a Sanskrit word, MahaaraaNii too. If used in Tamil their plurals are MahaaraajaakkaL, and mahaaraaNikaL. Notice the -kk- in mahaaraajaakkaL, which means the k is pronounced as k, but in mahaaraaNikaL the k is pronounced as G.
> In short, there are "if ... then" rules to be learnt for correctly formulating plurals and to pronounce them correctly. In Tamil the letter k is pronounced both as k and as g, the letter T is pronounced both as T and as D, and so on (there are "if ... then" rules here too).



Gope ji, I have a question.

Why plural of 'nimish' (the time taken to splash an eyelid, short period of time) is 'nimishankal '(-gal) and not 'nimisharkal' (-gal)? 

I think nimish is also Sanskrit. Similarly, Pushpangal? (Pushpa is Sanskrit but again root word 'pu' is Tamil.)


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## Gop

The Tamil singular is nimisham (more commonly nimiDam), a minute. The plural is nimiDam+kaL = nimiDangaL.
Similarly pushpam, pushpangaL.


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