# ו (vav/waw) - Pronunciation



## Hemza

Hello,

I'm trying to learn Hebrew by myself (not so hard thanks to Arabic) but I have a problem: On some websites, the letter "ו" is transliterated as a "vav" and some others as a "waw". What's the right pronounciation? "wa" or "va"? Or are both correct?

Toda li 3olam (hope I'm not wrong)


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## tFighterPilot

Depends on the word. ו can be pronounced as /v/, as /w/, as /u/ and as /o/. However, it's pronounced /w/ only in loanwords.


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## Hemza

Thank you for your reply. Is it the same for Old Hebrew? Because I would like to keep Old Hebrew pronounciation.

Example: I saw on some websites the number "4" written "arva3a" or "arba3a" (3=ע).Which one is the right one? Or are both acceptable?


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## arielipi

usually double vav denotes a w sound.


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## airelibre

In Biblical Hebrew the pronunciation was mostly like w (or wa/u where appropriate) but nowadays I don't think Arabs pronounce it as w (correct me if I'm wrong) although by all means feel free to use the Arabic ח/ح and ע/ع if you want, since these are used by a lot of Arab Hebrew speakers.


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## bazq

Hemza said:


> Thank you for your reply. Is it the same for Old Hebrew? Because I would like to keep Old Hebrew pronounciation.
> 
> Example: I saw on some websites the number "4" written "arva3a" or "arba3a" (3=ע).Which one is the right one? Or are both acceptable?



The name of the number "4", and the cardinal number for feminine nouns, is arba3 (always b). 
arba3a is the cardinal number for male nouns, for example "four people" = "arba3a 'anashim".


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## Hemza

Thanks .


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## Drink

Just to clarify: The letter vav can be either a vowel or a consonant (just like Arabic waw). When it is a vowel, it is pronounced "u" or "o", and when it is a consonant is consonant, it is pronounced "v" in Modern Hebrew, but was probably "w" in Biblical Hebrew. It is unknown whether it was pronounced "w" or "v" by the Tiberian masoretes. In loanwords (especially from English and Arabic), it is pronounced "w" in Modern Hebrew.


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## Hemza

Many thanks for being so accurate!! So if I understand correctly, it can either be a "و" (waw) as in "وعد" (promise) or "و" as a long vowel, as in "حوت" (whale)?

I'll stick to the hypothetical Biblical Hebrew pronounciation as it's close to Arabic. Thanks again .


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> Many thanks for being so accurate!! So if I understand correctly, it can either be a "و" (waw) as in "وعد" (promise) or "و" as a long vowel, as in "حوت" (whale)?



Yes, only in Modern Hebrew, long and short vowels are pronounced the same.


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## Hemza

airelibre said:


> In Biblical Hebrew the pronunciation was mostly like w (or wa/u where appropriate) but nowadays I don't think Arabs pronounce it as w (correct me if I'm wrong) although by all means feel free to use the Arabic ח/ح and ע/ع if you want, since these are used by a lot of Arab Hebrew speakers.



We do pronounce it "waw". Or did you mean in modern Hebrew? I have no idea, I'm not Palestinian.

Yes, I plan to pronounce the letters "ע" and "ח" .

One more question: the verb "to write" is pronounced (in Biblical Hebrew) with "v" or "w"? Because I saw "ani katavti" but it seems that in Biblical Hebrew, it it/was pronounced "waw" as you told me, but it sounds weird to my ears to say "ani katawti" for example. Is there an explanation?


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## origumi

Letter "b" as in k-t-b is not pronounced "w" in modern Hebrew, only "b" or "v", depending on several rules. It may become "w" in certain neo-Aramaic dialects.


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## Hemza

Ok, so what I've seen on the website was a mistake, it's not actually "v", it's "b" (in "k-t-b"). Thank you ^^. I prefer to adopt the Biblical Hebrew pronounciation, I think it shall be easier for me.


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## Drink

Outside of those neo-Aramaic dialects that origumi mentioned, ב is never and was never pronounced as "w". Even Yemenite Jews who pronounce ו (vav) as "w", pronounce the fricative ב as "v". If you're interested in why ב has two pronunciations (plosive and fricative), you can read about the begedkefet letters on Wikipedia.


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## لنـا

السلام عليكم حمزة،

ו اول الكلمة تلفظ ﭪ حتى لو كانت حرف عطف او حرف عادي وباخر الكلمة نفس الشيء. مثال: ורדים ﭪْرَدِيم وليس وْرَاديم ، צו تْسَاﭪ وليس تساو(هناك حالات خاصة عند استعارة كلمة من لغة اجنبية)
وبنصف الكلمة: اظن ان تسطيع ان تفرق بين اللفظين عن طريق ترديد الكلمة عدة مرات كما علمونا في المدرسة ولكن في الغالب تقرأ واو
مثلا: מטוס تقرا ماطوس وليس مَطْﭪَس
רווח ريﭪاح وليس ريواح


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## arielipi

no no no, its root is כ-ת-ב where ב is either b or v sound.
ו is either a vowel - u or o.
or consonant, sound either v or w.
usually two vavs denote a w sound.


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## k8an

لنـا said:


> السلام عليكم حمزة،
> 
> ו اول الكلمة تلفظ ﭪ حتى لو كانت حرف عطف او حرف عادي وباخر الكلمة نفس الشيء. مثال: ורדים ﭪْرَدِيم وليس وْرَاديم ، צו تْسَاﭪ وليس تساو(هناك حالات خاصة عند استعارة كلمة من لغة اجنبية)
> وبنصف الكلمة: اظن ان تسطيع ان تفرق بين اللفظين عن طريق ترديد الكلمة عدة مرات كما علمونا في المدرسة ولكن في الغالب تقرأ واو
> مثلا: מטוס تقرا ماطوس وليس مَطْﭪَس
> רווח ريﭪاح وليس ريواح



Good explanation!

Hemza, this is a good one


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## k8an

arielipi said:


> no no no, its root is כ-ת-ב where ב is either b or v sound.
> ו is either a vowel - u or o.
> or consonant, sound either v or w.
> usually two vavs denote a w sound.



Right. Except, as لنا pointed out, in רווח and words like מקווה it's still a v sound.


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## arielipi

Yes, I stand against writing them with two vavs


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## Drink

arielipi said:


> usually two vavs denote a w sound.





arielipi said:


> Yes, I stand against writing them with two vavs



Regardless of where you personally stand, the "v" sound in the middle of a word is usually written with a double vav, just like the "y" sound in the same positions is usually written with a double yud. It has been this way at least since Mishnaic times.


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## arielipi

Drink said:


> Regardless of where you personally stand, the "v" sound in the middle of a word is usually written with a double vav, just like the "y" sound in the same positions is usually written with a double yud. It has been this way at least since Mishnaic times.


It has not, i also stand against two yods if theyre both the consonant.
הייתי is ok, since one is vowel and one is consonant,
ראיתי is ok.
היה is ok but הייה isnt.


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## hadronic

הייה is not normative, since doubling the yod doesn't occur when close to another matres lectionis (here, the ה).
-ייה  should always mark the ending -iya.

So, are you "against" doubling in words like תייר , קיים , מאיים?


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## arielipi

well, some words _are _too imprinted on us to change, but theres a 'zliga' in this. in truth, tayar shouldve been one yod.
fyi, there are people who write ייהיה or יהייה for יהיה.


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## hadronic

Ok, in short, you're not against doubling, you're against erroneous / superfluous/uneducated doubling. Your position is nothing particular : you're just against errors.
Fine. 
Next.


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## MuttQuad

Originally Posted by *arielipi*  usually two vavs denote a w sound.

I am getting confused. I wasn't aware that Hebrew has a "w" sound at all except, perhaps, in loan words.


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## hadronic

Arielipi seems to have his/her own set of rules..


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## Drink

MuttQuad said:


> Originally Posted by *arielipi* usually two vavs denote a w sound.
> 
> I am getting confused. I wasn't aware that Hebrew has a "w" sound at all except, perhaps, in loan words.



He was referring to loanwords.


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## arielipi

hadronic said:


> Arielipi seems to have his/her own set of rules..


his  and yes, there are stuff im against the academia, against the public consensus.


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## Albert Schlef

arielipi said:


> there are stuff im against the academia, against the public consensus.



Against knowledge. Against humility.


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## arielipi

Albert Schlef said:


> Against knowledge. Against humility.


basically im against


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## Hemza

I'm not anyone to fix rules, but I think that if in Old Hebrew or at least, once in history, it has been pronounced "w", it's not incorrect, right? I understand that in most words, it's rendered as "v" though. In Arabic, the sound "v" doesn't exist. May be, Aramaic can help about this if someone knows about it? 

Anyhow, many thanks to everyone for your participation


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> I'm not anyone to fix rules, but I think that if in Old Hebrew or at least, once in history, it has been pronounced "w", it's not incorrect, right? I understand that in most words, it's rendered as "v" though. In Arabic, the sound "v" doesn't exist. May be, Aramaic can help about this if someone knows about it?
> 
> Anyhow, many thanks to everyone for your participation



Here is where the question of why you are learning the language becomes important. If you are learning Hebrew just to read the Bible, then you can pronounce either the historical or the modern way. But if you are learning Hebrew to be able to communicate with Israelis, then it will sound very strange if you use the historical pronunciation. Even traditional Ashkenazi Jews and Yemenite Jews, who each have their own traditional Hebrew pronunciations that they still use for liturgy, use the modern Israeli pronunciation in conversation.


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## Hemza

Drink said:


> Here is where the question of why you are learning the language becomes important. If you are learning Hebrew just to read the Bible, then you can pronounce either the historical or the modern way. But if you are learning Hebrew to be able to communicate with Israelis, then it will sound very strange if you use the historical pronunciation. Even traditional Ashkenazi Jews and Yemenite Jews, who each have their own traditional Hebrew pronunciations that they still use for liturgy, use the modern Israeli pronunciation in conversation.



No, it's not for reading Bible (at least, not yet ). It's just because I like it. No offense, but I don't like how modern Hebrew sounds, I hear too much "kh" and "k" sounds. Also, Biblical Hebrew pronounciation is closer to Arabic than modern Hebrew (comparing modern Hebrew with Arabic). I'm aware that it probably sounds very strange to Hebrew speakers today to hear biblical pronounciation but it's not to communicate with Israelis (not yet so I have time before being mocked ) but I have a friend who is Algerian-Tunisian and he knows Hebrew so we've concluded a kind of agreement: I learn Hebrew and he helps me and he learns Arabic and I help him. Also, to help myself, I use videos on youtube of a woman who gives Hebrew lessons (in English).


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> No, it's not for reading Bible (at least, not yet ). It's just because I like it. No offense, but I don't like how modern Hebrew sounds, I hear too much "kh" and "k" sounds. Also, Biblical Hebrew pronounciation is closer to Arabic than modern Hebrew (comparing modern Hebrew with Arabic). I'm aware that it probably sounds very strange to Hebrew speakers today to hear biblical pronounciation but it's not to communicate with Israelis (not yet so I have time before being mocked ) but I have a friend who is Algerian-Tunisian and he knows Hebrew so we've concluded a kind of agreement: I learn Hebrew and he helps me and he learns Arabic and I help him. Also, to help myself, I use videos on youtube of a woman who gives Hebrew lessons (in English).



In that case, it seems that you should go with how your friend pronounces it.


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## k8an

Hemza said:


> No, it's not for reading Bible (at least, not yet ). It's just because I like it. No offense, but I don't like how modern Hebrew sounds, I hear too much "kh" and "k" sounds. Also, Biblical Hebrew pronounciation is closer to Arabic than modern Hebrew (comparing modern Hebrew with Arabic). I'm aware that it probably sounds very strange to Hebrew speakers today to hear biblical pronounciation but it's not to communicate with Israelis (not yet so I have time before being mocked ) but I have a friend who is Algerian-Tunisian and he knows Hebrew so we've concluded a kind of agreement: I learn Hebrew and he helps me and he learns Arabic and I help him. Also, to help myself, I use videos on youtube of a woman who gives Hebrew lessons (in English).



Even for me, someone who has been speaking Hebrew since early childhood, Hebrew has too much "kh". I think this became really obvious when I started speaking Lebanese as a teenager - people always think Arabic sounds "harsh" but Hebrew is much harsher in my opinion. In any case, I think Hebrew has its own unique beauty and once you learn to speak it well you will see what I mean  Speaking Hijazi and Moroccan should make it super easy for you to speak Hebrew. 

Anyway, to sum up, لنا gave very good explanations on the previous page. Basically, in most cases, pronouncing Hebrew with w instead of v sounds as strange as pronouncing و as v in Arabic instead of w. Quite bizarre - not recommended for learners at all


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## لنـا

k8an said:


> Even for me, someone who has been speaking Hebrew since early childhood, Hebrew has too much "kh". I think this became really obvious when I started speaking Lebanese as a teenager - people always think Arabic sounds "harsh" but Hebrew is much harsher in my opinion. In any case, I think Hebrew has its own unique beauty and once you learn to speak it well you will see what I mean  Speaking Hijazi and Moroccan should make it super easy for you to speak Hebrew.
> 
> Anyway, to sum up, لنا gave very good explanations on the previous page. Basically, in most cases, pronouncing Hebrew with w instead of v sounds as strange as pronouncing و as v in Arabic instead of w. Quite bizarre - not recommended for learners at all



That’s because Lebanese has a smooth and romantic sounds, unlike MSA, which still has its harsh sounds (as qaf, ssad, dhad, zal, za2….) that couldn’t be found in Hebrew as well.

I understand Hamza’s aspect, however, I like Israeli Hebrew, especially their “r” and “ kh”, but I can’t imagine myself speak like them , Not because I don’t know how, but simply, I don’t like to!

PS: thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you found it useful!


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## origumi

Hemza said:


> I don't like how modern Hebrew sounds, I hear too much "kh" and "k" sounds.


It's amusing to hear it from an Arabic native, this is exactly what many Hebrew speakers would say about Arabic (and also about Dutch maybe, but this is irrelevant here).


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## Hemza

Many thanks to you all, you helped me a lot, I admit I've been really confused when some where debating about the pronounciation  that's why I chose to not reply until everyone agree.

@*K8an*: thanks, so I'll pronounce it "v" from now. Yes, Arabic helps a lot and me and my friend like to compare both languages and look for things in common. We both have French as our native language (even I speak Arabic better than he speaks Hebrew, he hasn't practiced it for 8 years). About Lebanese Arabic, we often say it sounds effeminate   (even if it sounds beautiful) compared to Arabian dialects or Maghrebi ones but it's just a way to make fun of Lebanese, nothing offensive ^^.

@*لنا*: Both of my dialects sound harsh ahahaha!! I watch a Palestinian woman's videos who gives Hebrew lessons and I like it because she gives the old pronounciation and the modern one like with "I'm sorry", "ani mitsta2ekh" and "ani mista3er" (the second sound more beautiful in my opinion but I respect others' opinions).

@*origumi*: I guess we're influenced by our native language so we usually find others harsher than our native one . My French friends tell me Arabic sound horrible lol while I love how it sounds. On the other side, I have an Iranian friend and I told him Persian sound harsh while he finds it really normal lol. About Dutch (and German) I think a majority of people find it harsh ahahahah!!!

Thanks again everyone, I'll stick to "v" pronounciation then, I was also thinking that "ani katawti" sounds too weird compared to "ani katavti" .


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## arielipi

Hemza said:


> Thanks again everyone, I'll stick to "v" pronounciation then, I was also thinking that "ani katawti" sounds too weird compared to "ani katavti" .


thats a vet. not a vav.


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## hadronic

Wait, as a native speaker of French, you shouldn't find Israeli Hebrew's "r" harsh!


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## origumi

Somewhat off-topic yet an example of Arabic confusion regarding Hebrew spelling/pronunciation, in a photo from a wedding in Gaza this week. "ח" instead of "כ", mater lectionis "א" to lengthen a vowel.


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## David S

Before Modern Hebrew came about, was the waw pronunciation more popular than the vav one among non-Ashkenazi Jews? Or were there other communities that pronounced vav like vav?


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## k8an

David S said:


> Before Modern Hebrew came about, was the waw pronunciation more popular than the vav one among non-Ashkenazi Jews? Or were there other communities that pronounced vav like vav?




From what I know, only some (not all) Mizrahim pronounced it as waw. All Ashkenazim, Persians, Sfaradi and other Jews always pronounced it as vav. I'm not 109% sure of this but that's what I remember learning.


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## origumi

David S said:


> Before Modern Hebrew came about, was the waw pronunciation more popular than the vav one among non-Ashkenazi Jews? Or were there other communities that pronounced vav like vav?



Look here (first table)


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## Drink

k8an said:


> From what I know, only some (not all) Mizrahim pronounced it as waw. All Ashkenazim, Persians, Sfaradi and other Jews always pronounced it as vav. I'm not 109% sure of this but that's what I remember learning. In any case,



Only the "true Mizrahim" pronounce it as "w". Most Mizrahim are actually a mix of the original Mizrahim and later Sfaradi immigrants dispersed by the Ottoman Empire. The only pure Mizrahi tradition I know of is that of the Yemenite Jews, and they surely do pronounce it as "w".


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## Drink

origumi said:


> Look here (first table)



I disagree with two things in that table regarding _vav_:
- The Tiberian pronunciation is unknown whether it was [v] or [w].
- In Mishaic Hebrew, there is already some confusion between _bet_ and _vav_, showing that they were pronounced the same (at least by some people) at the time.


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## k8an

Just a note: I think we are really getting Hemza confused here. As a student of Hebrew, obviously using waw would make someone incomprehensible to most of us. I believe the information Hemza wanted to know is that we pronounce it as vav. 

If anybody is interested in historical pronunciation, maybe we should split this into two topics?


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## Drink

k8an said:


> Just a note: I think we are really getting Hemza confused here. As a student of Hebrew, obviously using waw would make someone incomprehensible to most of us. I believe the information Hemza wanted to know is that we pronounce it as vav.
> 
> If anybody is interested in historical pronunciation, maybe we should split this into two topics?



It might be difficult at this point to go through all the posts and decide what to split. I think Hemza already got his answer.


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## hadronic

Hemza asked about modern pronunciation and biblical pronunciation (the latter being his preference / target). So the discussion here is spot on.


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> Hemza asked about modern pronunciation and biblical pronunciation (the latter being his preference / target). So the discussion here is spot on.



Yes, exactly .

About French "R", it's not the same sound as the Arabic/Hebrew "kh" even if I agree, it sounds close. But when I hear Hebrew (modern one) I compare it to Arabic words when I recognize them, like
-"world": "olam" in modern Hebrew, "3olam/3alam" in Old Hebrew/Arabic  ("3=ע")
-"head": "rosh" (with a French R) in modern Hebrew while in Old Hebrew, it's pronounced almost like Arabic "rosh" vs "ra'ass" (with a resh).


it sounds weird to my ears to hear "Rosh" (French "R") or "olam", like if there is something missing. Of course, I'm not any kind of authority to say to people how to talk but I prefer to adopt the old Hebrew pronounciation, it sounds more beautiful (that's just my opinion ^^).

Ps: If I'm wrong about my examples, don't hesitate to correct me.


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## Hemza

Drink said:


> I disagree with two things in that table regarding _vav_:
> - The Tiberian pronunciation is unknown whether it was [v] or [w].
> - In Mishaic Hebrew, there is already some confusion between _bet_ and _vav_, showing that they were pronounced the same (at least by some people) at the time.



If I understand well, "bet" and "vav" are sometimes confused with each other? Like the verb "to write", you mean that it can be pronounced either "katabti" (like in Arabic) or "katavti"?


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## arielipi

Hemza said:


> If I understand well, "bet" and "vav" are sometimes confused with each other? Like the verb "to write", you mean that it can be pronounced either "katabti" (like in Arabic) or "katavti"?


no, bet is a letter that either delivers the sound b or v, depends if its with dagesh or not. its katavti with a vet, not a vav


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> If I understand well, "bet" and "vav" are sometimes confused with each other? Like the verb "to write", you mean that it can be pronounced either "katabti" (like in Arabic) or "katavti"?



First of all to clarify, Mishnaic Hebrew was the Hebrew of the first few centuries A.D., during which most of the Hebrew daily prayers were written.

At that time, "I wrote" was almost certainly always pronounced "katavti", with a "v". The question is whether they pronounced the letter _vav_ as "w" or "v". The link that origumi gave said that it was pronounced "w", but actually there is evidence of confusion between _bet_ and _vav_. Take for example the words אביב (aviv, "spring") and אביו (aviv, "his father"). Today, these words are pronounced exactly the same, but at some point historically, "spring" was pronounced "aviv", while "his father" was pronounced "aviw". The question is then whether these two words were pronounced the same way in Mishnaic Hebrew. The confusion I was referring to is when someone writes a _vav_ when the word should have a _bet_, or when someone writes a _bet_ when the word should have a _vav_. There is evidence that such confusion existed in Mishnaic Hebrew, proving that some people already pronounced words like "his father" and "spring" the same way.

In case you're interested, Syrian Jews say "katabti" for "I wrote" (but they pronounce _vav_ as "v", not "w").


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## hadronic

It reminds me my Arabic teacher, he was Syrian and could speak perfect French, but he was rolling the "r" because he thought it "made more sense" and that sounded more "true" and "beautiful" to his ears. We were like?....


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## Hemza

Drink said:


> First of all to clarify, Mishnaic Hebrew was the Hebrew of the first few centuries A.D., during which most of the Hebrew daily prayers were written.
> 
> At that time, "I wrote" was almost certainly always pronounced "katavti", with a "v". The question is whether they pronounced the letter _vav_ as "w" or "v". The link that origumi gave said that it was pronounced "w", but actually there is evidence of confusion between _bet_ and _vav_. Take for example the words אביב (aviv, "spring") and אביו (aviv, "his father"). Today, these words are pronounced exactly the same, but at some point historically, "spring" was pronounced "aviv", while "his father" was pronounced "aviw". The question is then whether these two words were pronounced the same way in Mishnaic Hebrew. The confusion I was referring to is when someone writes a _vav_ when the word should have a _bet_, or when someone writes a _bet_ when the word should have a _vav_. There is evidence that such confusion existed in Mishnaic Hebrew, proving that some people already pronounced words like "his father" and "spring" the same way.
> 
> In case you're interested, Syrian Jews say "katabti" for "I wrote" (but they pronounce _vav_ as "v", not "w").



Many thanks for explanation.

Could be it because of the differences of Hebrew dialects a while ago? I mean may be, those differences of pronounciation comes from the fact that there were regional dialects or even Hebrew-Aramaic speakers?


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> It reminds me my Arabic teacher, he was Syrian and could speak perfect French, but he was rolling the "r" because he thought it "made more sense" and that sounded more "true" and "beautiful" to his ears. We were like?....



Off topic: the rolled "r" isn't a mistake in French, it exists in some rural areas . But I admit that saying this as your Syrian teacher was saying is a bit weird . I'm sure it was just a pretext because he couldn't pronounce it correctly  (joking).

In Hebrew, it makes sense to say what I've said since the "r" is originally rolled. As I said, I'm no one to tell to people how to speak but I want to stick to old Hebrew, even if it can sound odd to a Hebrew speaker . That's because why Modern Hebrew sound weird to me: those three letters "ר ,ח ,כ" are pronounced the same, as a "כ"  and I hear too much "כ", it doesn't sound beautiful (again, no offense, that's just my opinion, my French friends find Arabic horrible lol) that's why I prefer to adopt the old Hebrew pronounciation .


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## hadronic

If anything, ר  is closer to Arabic ghayn, isn't it? It's certainly not pronounced the same as  כ and ח. It's sometimes so soft that you barely hear it, like noix / noir in French.


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## hadronic

Ok now, how are you planning on pronouncing words like אח (brother)? will you pronounce it like أخ (as it is in arabic) or like أح ? won't you feel you "miss" something?


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> If anything, ר  is closer to Arabic ghayn, isn't it? It's certainly not pronounced the same as  כ and ח. It's sometimes so soft that you barely hear it, like noix / noir in French.



No (as far as I know) the "ר" is like "ر" (ra) a rolled "r". The "ghayn" is written like this "غ" which is like the French "r". Those are two different letters. I meant that some letters (sorry, I avoid to quote them to avoid mistakes as I did) are pronounced in modern Hebrew like the "kh" sound right? Or the "ghayn", I forgot .



hadronic said:


> Ok now, how are you planning on pronouncing words like אח (brother)? will you pronounce it like أخ (as it is in arabic) or like أح ? won't you feel you "miss" something?



I plan to pronounce it as it was pronounced in old Hebrew . I suppose it's pronounced like the Arabic one (أخ) right?


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## Hemza

Sorry, I think I made everyone confused. I'll try to explain my point:

When I hear modern Hebrew, I hear sounds like "*kh*" or "*gh*" (Arabic "خ" or "غ") but I NEVER hear the sounds "*ha*" (Arabic "ح"). Same with "*kaf*": I always hear "*k*" but never "*q*" (the glottal one  "ق") while those sounds exist in Hebrew.

Example: how do you say in modern AND old Hebrew "a horn"? in Arabic (transcripted) it's "qurn" (with the ק/ق) and I'm pretty sure that it's the same in old Hebrew. And I think that in modern Hebrew, this sound is pronounced like an English "k" right?

 So I would like to pronounce Hebrew with all the letters and not replacing some with other sounds like modern hebrew speakers seem to do.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone with my opinion about modern Hebrew pronounciation but I prefer the old one.

I've found a video on youtube of a guy who explain how to pronounce all the letters in biblical Hebrew so it helped me a lot. BUT he said that "ו" was pronounced like "w" in English and at the end, he speaks about a letter, "taw" (English "w") but he pronounce it "tav" (English "v). It's confusing, I'm sorry if I bother you with all my questions, but I'm a bit lost, I wasn't expecting Hebrew alphabet to be sooo confusing  for me and it's annoying as hell because it's really close to Arabic!!!


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## hadronic

In a previous post, you said that כ, ח and ר are all pronounced the same in modern hebrew, namely kh. That's not the case. כ (without dagesh) and ח are, but ר is a whole different sound , similar to french r or    close to Arabic ghayn. 

Now, no : in biblical hebrew, ح and خ merged into one sound, ح, noted ח. So Biblical Hebrew makes no difference between those two radicals. אח was pronounced أح, unlike Arabic. Same with 'ayn and ghayn, that merged into 'ayn, hence the very disturbing pair ערב / מערב (Arab / Western)


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> In a previous post, you said that כ, ח and ר are all pronounced the same in modern hebrew, namely kh. That's not the case. כ (without dagesh) and ח are, but ר is a whole different sound , similar to french r or    close to Arabic ghayn.
> 
> Now, no : in biblical hebrew, ح and خ merged into one sound, ح, noted ח. So Biblical Hebrew makes no difference between those two radicals. אח was pronounced أح, unlike Arabic. Same with 'ayn and ghayn, that merged into 'ayn, hence the very disturbing pair ערב / מערב (Arab / Western)



I FINALLY understood what is "dagesh" .

Yes, sorry, I was wrong, I thought modern Hebrew pronounce those letters a a "kh" while it's actually as a "gh". So I prefer to avoid this pronounciation and stick to old Hebrew's pronounciation.

So why the guy in the video about old Hebrew pronounciation I watched, was making a distinction between the letters "khaf" and "het"? Are you sure it merged?


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## arielipi

כ without dagesh is like german ch,
כ with dagesh is like english k.
ב dagesh is b
ב dageshless is v
ח is kh
ק is lost, nowadays its like k, and if anyone can provide its original sound...
anything else?


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## bazq

arielipi said:


> כ without dagesh is like german ch,
> כ with dagesh is like english k.
> ב dagesh is b
> ב dageshless is v
> ח is kh
> ק is lost, nowadays its like k, and if anyone can provide its original sound...
> anything else?



You make it seem as if there's a distinction between a כ without a degesh, and ח, when there clearly isn't.
They are both pronounced χ.

Before ק shifted to /k/ it was probably /q/ or an ejective /k'/.


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## hadronic

Regarding the merger I was referring to earlier : the two semitic inherited phonemes /kh/ and /H/ merged in pre-biblical times into /H/, whereas Arabic kept them distinct. 
Much later, in modern times, that /H/ raised to /kh/. 

So whereas Arabic has /'akh/ (brother), /khamsa/ (five) but /waaHid/ (one), Biblical Hebrew had /'aH/, /Hamesh/, /eHad/ with /H/ for all three, and Modern Hebrew /'akh/, /khamesh/, /ekhad/ with /kh/ for all three. 

You're free to choose your side, either biblical or modern, but pronouncing אחד (one) and חמש (five) with two different types of sound for ח is NOT an option...


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## arielipi

bazq said:


> You make it seem as if there's a distinction between a כ without a degesh, and ח, when there clearly isn't.
> They are both pronounced χ.
> 
> Before ק shifted to /k/ it was probably /q/ or an ejective /k'/.


there should be, im telling how it should be.


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## hadronic

So the difference that we "should" make, is "German ch" for כ (w/o dagesh) on one side, and "kh" for ח on the other. How would you qualify the difference between those two sounds? In what ways is German ch different from kh? 

Moreover, when you say "should", what type of hebrew are you referring to?


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## arielipi

kh is like the arabic equivalent of khet (guys who know how to show the correct api sound please do)
when i say should, i mean some sort of combination of ashkenazi and temani pronunciation rules. the way we should be speaking is:
for בגד כפת
ב dagesh b, no dagesh v
ג dagesh g, no dagesh temani thingy (or is it the other way around?)
ד dagesh d, no dagesh ditto
כ dagesh k, no dagesh ch
פ dagesh p, no dagesh f/ph
ת dagesh t, no dagesh th

ק arabic thingy
ע is like 3
א regular a sounds
ה h

is there any letter i missed with confusions?


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## hadronic

I think that in the wildest dreams of the revitalists and purists, nobody ever ever had this type of Hebrew as a target... 

Well, are you starting tomorrow?


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## arielipi

hadronic said:


> I think that in the wildest dreams of the revitalists and purists, nobody ever ever had this type of Hebrew as a target...
> 
> Well, are you starting tomorrow?


im saying what should be, as ashkenazi i dont think i can produce now all of beged kefet, im too old to learn the sounds. same for q.
i am though trying to put (avri gilad style) khet and ayin correctly.


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## hadronic

Ok, so you're talking about how it probably *was*. 

Plus you forgot :
ט, like emphatic t in Arabic. 
צ, like emphatic s in Arabic (but this sounds is a merger of three Arabic consonant : ض ص and ظ). 

And I would precise :
ד without dagesh : like ذ

@Hemza: we need to do all the above  Either you go Biblical, or you don't... 
BehaSlaHa welehith-ra'oth !


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> Regarding the merger I was referring to earlier : the two semitic inherited phonemes /kh/ and /H/ merged in pre-biblical times into /H/, whereas Arabic kept them distinct.
> Much later, in modern times, that /H/ raised to /kh/.
> 
> So whereas Arabic has /'akh/ (brother), /khamsa/ (five) but /waaHid/ (one), Biblical Hebrew had /'aH/, /Hamesh/, /eHad/ with /H/ for all three, and Modern Hebrew /'akh/, /khamesh/, /ekhad/ with /kh/ for all three.
> 
> You're free to choose your side, either biblical or modern, but pronouncing אחד (one) and חמש (five) with two different types of sound for ח is NOT an option...



Thanks for those explainations. I'll go for Biblical Hebrew, so the sound "kh" wasn't pronounced in Biblical Hebrew so I shall pronounce "ח" as a "H". But in the video, the guy was clearly making a difference between the letter "khaf" and the letter "Het". I'm not saying you're wrong, but WHO must I trust? You or the guy in the video?

Ps: if you want the video, I can send you the link by private message.


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## Ihsiin

כ is pronounced either as /k/ or /x/; that is, kaf or khaf. I believe this feature was imported from Aramaic into Hebrew sometime between the 5th and 1st centuries BC. If you don't care about the pronunciation of Modern Hebrew you might as well pronounce it as /k/ in all cases, then you wouldn't have any instances of /x/ at all.



origumi said:


> It's amusing to hear it from an Arabic native, this is exactly what many Hebrew speakers would say about Arabic (and also about Dutch maybe, but this is irrelevant here).



This sounds strange to me. I would guess, since Modern Hebrew has /x/ as a reflex of three proto-Semitic phonemes and Arabic only of one, Modern Hebrew would have a much higher proportion of /x/ than in Arabic.



arielipi said:


> kh is like the arabic equivalent of khet (guys who know how to show the correct api sound please do)



If you mean like Arabic ح (IPA: /ħ/) than your use of 'kh' is very confusing. We usually use 'kh' to transliterate /x~χ/, equivalent to German 'ch'. The presence of k makes us think it's a velar sound, whereas /ħ/ is pharyngeal. It would be better if you used a capital H to transcribe this sound, as is fairly common with regards to Arabic.


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## arielipi

Ihsiin said:


> If you mean like Arabic ح (IPA: /ħ/) than your use of 'kh' is very confusing. We usually use 'kh' to transliterate /x~χ/, equivalent to German 'ch'. The presence of k makes us think it's a velar sound, whereas /ħ/ is pharyngeal. It would be better if you used a capital H to transcribe this sound, as is fairly common with regards to Arabic.


I speak hebrew, not arabic, i write as it was and is usually done by most people to show how hebrew letters should be pronounced.
i honestly dont get why everyone is so confused, khet kh is the way temanim aslim say khet, same goes for ayin and all the rest of beged kefet, kuf, etc etc.


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## Ihsiin

The problem is when you write 'kh' people read it as the Ashkenazi pronunciation of ח, not the Yemeni one which is the one you seem to mean. This is what's getting people confused.


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## hadronic

Everyone is so confused because /kh/ is NEVER used to note the /H/ sound of yemenite ח. It's up to you to choose not to follow the conventions, but don't be surprised when people don't get what you aim at.


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## k8an

The fact is that most Hebrew speakers are shockingly ignorant about Arabic and the same can be said if Arabic speakers about Hebrew. Hebrew speakers often _think _they know something about Arabic, but the reality is very different. 

This thread will likely go round and round in circles because of this. I suggest keeping threads to a specific topic (pronunciation of vav) in order to keep things tidy.


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## arielipi

as i said hadronic, most people use kh to denote the temani khet sound. at least the people i know, and it makes sense really because if you notice, old english used kh for names and stuff with this kind of sound.


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## hadronic

Ok, now Old English used to have the yemenite /H/ sound... I'm giving up


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## arielipi

hadronic said:


> Ok, now Old English used to have the yemenite /H/ sound... I'm giving up


thanks for the correction; in any case, today, most people in israel (at least those i know) use kh for yemenite khet.


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## bazq

arielipi said:


> thanks for the correction; in any case, today, most people in israel (at least those i know) use kh for yemenite khet.



Yes, some people use kh to represent ח and ch to represent כ when writing in the Latin alphabet (others use one of them to represent both), but do note that such transcriptions are "ill suited" to a linguistic discussion, let alone a historic one. It's not about פלצנות, it just helps to avoid misunderstandings like the one we encountered above.


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## Drink

This is all confusing because there were many mergers and splits in the History of Hebrew.

Here's a short summary, using Hebrew letters to represent written letters and Arabic letters to represent sounds.

In pre-classical Hebrew:
- ח represented both ح and خ
- כ/ך represented only ك
- ק represented only ق

At some point, ح and خ merged to ح

At some point later, ك split into both ك and خ

In classical Hebrew:
- ח represented only ح
- כ/ך represented both ك and خ
- ק represented only ق


Later, in some dialects, ح and خ merged to خ, and ك and ق merged to ك

In Modern Hebrew (for most speakers):- ח represents خ
- כ/ך represents both ك and خ
- ק represents ك

A similar story happened with ג and ע, and the sounds ج* and ع and غ, except that after Classical Hebrew, ع instead merged with ء, while غ merged back with ج*
* the Egyptian ج "g"


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## hadronic

Only in loanwords. It is actually written with double-vav.
But contrarily to what arliepi states, double-vav is not, and by far, only used for that. In 99.99% of cases, it's the plain old "v" sound.


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## arielipi

hadronic said:


> Only in loanwords. It is actually written with double-vav.
> But contrarily to what arliepi states, double-vav is not, and by far, only used for that. In 99.99% of cases, it's the plain old "v" sound.


yes, thats the doubling i stand against.


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## Hemza

arielipi said:


> thanks for the correction; in any case, today, most people in israel (at least those i know) use kh for yemenite khet.



Hello, that's why I've got confused, because I was thinking you use "kh" for the letter "khaph". At least, that's how I understood it until now (and others too). For the "khet", I would have used "H". Good thing it has been clarified .




Drink said:


> This is all confusing because there were many mergers and splits in the History of Hebrew.
> 
> Here's a short summary, using Hebrew letters to represent written letters and Arabic letters to represent sounds.
> 
> In pre-classical Hebrew:
> - ח represented both ح and خ
> - כ/ך represented only ك
> - ק represented only ق
> 
> At some point, ح and خ merged to ح
> 
> At some point later, ك split into both ك and خ
> 
> In classical Hebrew:
> - ח represented only ح
> - כ/ך represented both ك and خ
> - ק represented only ق
> 
> 
> Later, in some dialects, ح and خ merged to خ, and ك and ق merged to ك
> 
> In Modern Hebrew (for most speakers):- ח represents خ
> - כ/ך represents both ك and خ
> - ק represents ك
> 
> A similar story happened with ג and ע, and the sounds ج* and ع and غ, except that after Classical Hebrew, ع instead merged with ء, while غ merged back with ج*
> * the Egyptian ج "g"



What do you mean by "classical Hebrew" and "pre classical"?

If it's too long to explain, it's ok, I'll do some research on internet . From what you wrote, I guess I was thinking about the "pre classical Hebrew". That's how I would like to pronounce it and I don't care if it sounds weird nowadays .

Thank you all for your help. I have to admit that when I wrote my post, I thought one reply would be enough, I wasn't expecting more than 70 . But you all helped me a lot so thank you.


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> What do you mean by "classical Hebrew" and "pre classical"?
> 
> If it's too long to explain, it's ok, I'll do some research on internet . From what you wrote, I guess I was thinking about the "pre classical Hebrew". That's how I would like to pronounce it and I don't care if it sounds weird nowadays .



Classical Hebrew is just a term I made up. I guess it represents Biblical Hebrew as seen and idealized by the Tiberian Masoretes (5th-10th century C.E.), while pre-Classical is probably what Biblical Hebrew really was in Biblical times. The problem is that no one really knows when any of these changes took place.


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## Hemza

Thank you . So I'll keep your message, it's well made it will help me for pronounciation ^^.


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> Thank you . So I'll keep your message, it's well made it will help me for pronounciation ^^.



Just remember one more thing: The history of the vowels is even more complicated. It would be very weird to try to pronounce words with the Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels.


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## Hemza

Drink said:


> Just remember one more thing: The history of the vowels is even more complicated. It would be very weird to try to pronounce words with the Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels.



O_0

So it's not like in Arabic? Or is spoken Hebrew different from written Hebrew like Arabic?
Ps: Do you advise me to stop learning Hebrew and try another language? Joking


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## Drink

Hemza said:


> O_0
> 
> So it's not like in Arabic? Or is spoken Hebrew different from written Hebrew like Arabic?
> Ps: Do you advise me to stop learning Hebrew and try another language? Joking



No, it's not like Arabic. Classical Arabic has three vowels (a, i, u), which can all be long or short (and two diphthongs: ay, aw). If you go back far enough to way before Biblical times, Hebrew had the same system. Classical Hebrew has six vowels (a, e, i, o, u, ə). Three of them (a, e, o) can be long, short, or ultra-short (ultra-short may have actually been the same as short). Two of them (i, u) can be long or short. And the shva (ə) is always ultra-short. Tiberian Hebrew has seven (or eight if shva was considered different) vowels (a, ɛ, e, i, ɔ, o, u), with no length distinctions. *Modern Hebrew only has five vowels (a, e, i, o, u) with no length distinctions. The actual vowel system of Biblical Hebrew in Biblical times is unknown.*


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## MuttQuad

Just remember one more thing: The history of the vowels is even more  complicated. It would be very weird to try to pronounce words with the  Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels.

How so? As far as I know, that is exactly what is done in the services of most American congregations; and it is certainly what is taught in most Hebrew Schools -- unless you maintain that the vowels of Biblical Hebrew are considerably different than the vowel sounds used today.


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## Drink

MuttQuad said:


> Just remember one more thing: The history of the vowels is even more  complicated. It would be very weird to try to pronounce words with the  Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels.
> 
> How so? As far as I know, that is exactly what is done in the services of most American congregations; and it is certainly what is taught in most Hebrew Schools -- unless you maintain that the vowels of Biblical Hebrew are considerably different than the vowel sounds used today.



Are you trying to say that American congregations use the Biblical Hebrew consonants? They most certainly do not.


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## MuttQuad

Drink said:


> Are you trying to say that American congregations use the Biblical Hebrew consonants? They most certainly do not.



We were talking about vowels, I believe. As for consonants, how would we know the difference, as there is no recording of Biblical speech?


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## Drink

MuttQuad said:


> We were talking about vowels, I believe.



To clarify, when I said "It would be very weird to try to pronounce words with the Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels", I meant the combination of both at once.



MuttQuad said:


> As for consonants, how would we know the difference, as there is no recording of Biblical speech?



While we don't _know_ what the consonants sounded like, we have pretty good guesses. If you're interested in what we do and do not know about Biblical Hebrew, I can recommend the book In the Beginning: A Short History of the Hebrew Language.


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## MuttQuad

To clarify, when I said "It would be very weird to try to pronounce  words with the Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels",  I meant the combination of both at once.

That's what I thought. Are you saying that in American congregations when the Torah and Haftorah are read, or other Biblically-based liturgy, such as the Shema, that it is being pronounced "weirdly" in some way?


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## Drink

MuttQuad said:


> To clarify, when I said "It would be very weird to try to pronounce  words with the Biblical Hebrew consonants and the Modern Hebrew vowels",  I meant the combination of both at once.
> 
> That's what I thought. Are you saying that in American congregations when the Torah and Haftorah are read, or other Biblically-based liturgy, such as the Shema, that it is being pronounced "weirdly" in some way?



You are completely misunderstanding me. I am not referring to the written text of the Bible, but the pronunciation of the consonants in Biblical times. American congregations do not use the Biblical Hebrew pronunciation of the consonants. All congregations I have ever heard of use either their own traditional pronunciation (Askenazi, Sefardi, etc., and many subdivisions thereof), the Modern Hebrew pronunciation, or some sort of mix of the two. None of those options correspond to the Biblical Hebrew pronunciation of consonants.


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## berndf

arielipi said:


> as i said hadronic, most people use kh to denote the temani khet sound.


That is a convention essentially only used in Israel and conflicts with the Western convention to use _kh _to denote the sound of German _ch _in oriental languages (e.g. _Khalif _and _Khan_). Neither of them is "right" or "wrong". You just have to be aware of the difference in transcription conventions.

In the English speaking world, the transcription _kh_ = /ħ/, i.e. Yemenite ח, is unknown. The digraph _kh_ can either stand for /kʰ/ for transcriptions from languages that contrast /k/ and /kʰ/ (which Hebrew doesn't) or for /x/~/X/, i.e. the sound of Hebrew כ without dagesh. As hadronic explained you, in English and other Western languages, we rather use _H_ the transcribe the sound of Yemenite ח. The traditional academic transcriptions are _ḫ_ for כ and خ and _ḥ_ for ח and ح.


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## Hemza

Hello everyone and sorry for not giving back news.

I found 2 videos of prayer in Hebrew. The first one was recitated by a Yemeni and the second, it was stated that it was sephardi (Iberian or North African? Are they the same?) pronounciation. I had the impression to hear Arabic, the "ק",  "ע" , "צ" and the "ט" (hope to not be wrong this time with letters ) were pronounced (in the second video) and this is how I would like to pronounce Hebrew. It's not for conversing in Hebrew for the moment (I know no Hebrew speaker and my level is still far from being good).

Ps: I have a friend who is Algerian-Tunisian. I guess he has the sephardic prononuciation (although he didn't speak Hebrew for 8 years) but it's not like in the video AT ALL, when he tells me how he pronounces . Which one is wrong? The video, stating that it's "sephardi pronounciation" or my friend who has been influenced by ashkenazi pronounciation, considering we live in France so they're kind of mixed?


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## hadronic

I guess you got it by now : There isn't such a thing as "being wrong". There isn't one stage where you can say "this is Hebrew !!!".  You choose your side, and go for it. (but don't try to speak with an Israeli after )


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> I guess you got it by now : There isn't such a thing as "being wrong". There isn't one stage where you can say "this is Hebrew !!!".  You choose your side, and go for it. (but don't try to speak with an Israeli after )



I don't think I've said somewhere that modern Hebrew or any dialect/version of it is "wrong", I wouldn't allow myself to say such thing especially that even in Arabic dialects, some letters aren't pronounced like in standard Arabic. It's just that I want to adopt one of the pronounciation which isn't the modern one .

I guess I would be mocked but I don't care .


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## hadronic

I didn't say that you said that modern Hebrew was wrong. 
In the same way that I'm not saying that other pronunciations are wrong.  They all have their validity, for their time and space. That said, it's easy to also come up with a monster : a *combination* of pronunciations that never existed at a given point of the space and the time. But it's up to you to invent it : Modern Hebrew didn't do any different...


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## Hemza

hadronic said:


> I didn't say that you said that modern Hebrew was wrong.
> In the same way that I'm not saying that other pronunciations are wrong.  They all have their validity, for their time and space. That said, it's easy to also come up with a monster : a *combination* of pronunciations that never existed at a given point of the space and the time. But it's up to you to invent it : Modern Hebrew didn't do any different...



You mean that I can invent a new Hebrew version which might be recognised in the world one day (or not)? Joking . Anyhow, many thanks for your help and clarification .


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## ralphzak

I read  in this thread

ו (vav/waw) - Pronunciation

Drink wrote 
"
Take for example the words אביב (aviv, "spring") and אביו (aviv, "his father"). Today, these words are pronounced exactly the same, but at some point historically, "spring" was pronounced "aviv", while "his father" was pronounced "aviw". The question is then whether these two words were pronounced the same way in Mishnaic Hebrew. The confusion I was referring to is when someone writes a _vav_ when the word should have a _bet_, or when someone writes a _bet_ when the word should have a _vav_. There is evidence that such confusion existed in Mishnaic Hebrew, proving that some people already pronounced words like "his father" and "spring" the same way.
"

I'd be interested to see references for this.. 

Thanks


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## Abaye

An example given sometimes is from בבלי ראש השנה:


> אמר רבי אלעזר לא התקין רבן יוחנן בן זכאי אלא ביבנה בלבד


where יבנה is spelled יוונה in the Kaufmann Manuscript which is regarded as accurate because in several words it contains alternative spelling typical to older times.

Other examples from Mishnaic / Gemaraic Hebrew (מבוא לנוסח המשנה-חלק שני - אפשטיין, עמודים 1223 והלאה) are:
* אביר - אויר (as in אֲבִיר יַעֲקֹב I think)
* אבז - אווז
* בילן - ווילון
* גביל - גוויל
* הבאי - הואי
* המחובר - המחוור
* צבר - סואר
* מובאת - מוות
* מובל - מוול
* כבינתי - כוינתי
* ענבה - ענוה
* שבה - שוה

I'm not sure to which period each example is attributed.


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## Drink

Also, contrary to what I said before, it is actually not clearly whether both vet and vav were pronounced "v" or whether they were both pronounced "w".

The latter, for example, is the case in Modern Aramaic dialects (e.g. כתבא came to be pronounced kthawa/ktawa/ksawa/klawa, and spelled כתאוא in the short-lived Jewish literary variant of Northeastern Neo-Aramaic attested in the 18th century).


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## Abaye

Drink said:


> Also, contrary to what I said before, it is actually not clearly whether both vet and vav were pronounced "v" or whether they were both pronounced "w".
> 
> The latter, for example, is the case in Modern Aramaic dialects (e.g. כתבא came to be pronounced kthawa/ktawa/ksawa/klawa, and spelled כתאוא in the short-lived Jewish literary variant of Northeastern Neo-Aramaic attested in the 18th century).


This eventual "b" to "w" shift is attested in Neo-Aramaic (e.g. the Turoyo dialect), centuries after Mishnaic Hebrew, hundreds of kilometers away, so how robust would it be to assume it may have already been presented in the Mishnah?

A concise description of these consonant shifts: Aramaic in its Historical and Linguistic Setting, O. Jastrow, 2008, specifically page 4 figure 6.


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## Drink

Abaye said:


> This eventual "b" to "w" shift is attested in Neo-Aramaic (e.g. the Turoyo dialect), centuries after Mishnaic Hebrew, hundreds of kilometers away, so how robust would it be to assume it may have already been presented in the Mishnah?



It's a evidence of the possibility, not evidence that it was definitely that way. As I said, we know the בֿ and ו were pronounced the same. Since ו was originally pronounced "w", it's reasonable to assume they were both pronounced "w" in Mishnaic Hebrew, and since ו today in many communities is pronounced "v", it's also reasonable that they might have both been pronounced "v" in Mishnaic Hebrew. We don't know.


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## ralphzak

when we get the 6th letter doubled up, do we know what that's all about?

e.g.  of the three occurrences of yavneh in the mishna, (sefaria shows three references), then  looking in the kaufman manuscript

Dávid Kaufmann and his collection 

(yavneh with 6th-letter)     RH 4:2
(yavneh with vet)    Mishna, Seder Nezikin,   Avot 4:4
  (yavneh with double 6th-letter)   RH 4:1



https://imgur.com/Gfwofgz




https://imgur.com/G5B3982




https://imgur.com/aHgwxvq


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## Drink

Starting in Mishnaic Hebrew, the letters vav and yud were frequently doubled to emphasize that they are a consonant and not a vowel.

For example, in Mishnaic Hebrew, the plural of שור šōr is שוורים šəwārīm, and the plural of עיר ʿīr is עיירות ʿăyārōṯ. Both these words can alternatively be spelled with just one vav or yud.

So likewise, the name יונה/יוונה yawne can be spelled with either one or two vavs.


----------

