# Language learning in middle age



## Nunty

Good morning. 

As I was doing my Arabic homework, I was struck by some of the differences I find in learning a language now, at age 51, as opposed to in my university days. I have much more trouble memorizing declensions and tables and learning new vocabulary than I used to (*), but I find that my ability to grock from context and intonation is much greater than when I was a mere babe of 25 or so. I have the sense that there are other differences, too, but I can't quite put my finger on them.

I am interested in hearing particularly from language learners over 45 years old (my arbitary starting line for middle age) and from language teachers who have middle-aged pupils. Do you notice these differences, or others?





(*) In my case, this is due in part to medical treatment I underwent that impairs memory, but the phenomenon is widespread enough that I thought it would be interesting to hear from other "almost-seniors".


----------



## mirx

Hi Nun translator.

Well, definitely adults are much more analitical, so if they are given a text, they will guess many of the words by context. be it through association or by mere intuition.

However if they are given words that they've not come across before and with no similarity to their own language it would be very difficult for them to retain that word.

Adults also tend to use the same structures and are somehow afraid of experimenting with new concepts, that may also difficult their leraning.

Cheers.


----------



## maryjolos

Hi,

<LI class=texto>A child’s brain processes multiple languages in parallel paths, building a second language system alongside the first.

<LI class=texto>A young learner can access a second language separately, without having to translate, or go through the native language as a path.

<LI class=texto>An older learner (after puberty) stores new languages in a separate area of the brain, requiring translation and explicit grammar training to learn.

<LI class=texto>The diminishing plasticity of the brain makes early learning optimal.  
Ciao


----------



## badgrammar

My two cents, as someone who began learning a 3rd and 4th language at the age of 36:  It is wonderful excercise for the brain!!!  And since it is something done entirely by choice, I found it difficult and challenging, but very rewarding.  Learning German (I am far from speaking it fluently/correctly, but have solid notions) helped my English, which surprised me.  Learning Turkish, which is syntactically and grammatically nothing like English, helped my mathematical and analytical skills, memory and logic.  

I'm all for it, gott' use your brain or loose it!!!


----------



## Etcetera

Nun-Translator said:


> I am interested in hearing particularly from language learners over 45 years old (my arbitary starting line for middle age) and from language teachers who have middle-aged pupils. Do you notice these differences, or others?


In my group, there are students aged from 20 to 42. 
Younger students memorise new vocabulary quicker, but they have more difficulties in understanding grammar rules. Older students may think more before saying something, but when in the end they utter a sentence, it's usually much more correct grammatically than what a younger student can say after thinking for some 10 seconds.


----------



## Bonjules

Hola,
clearly it's much harder. I even find re-learning my 
French (of which I had a some when quite young) arduous ( I am older than Sister Claire).
But, keep at it! The neurologists think now that even
at a more advanced age we can selectively grow some new brain cells and make new connections, athough much less dramatically than a child can.
saludos


----------



## palomnik

Interesting question. I've been working on learning new languages for years (I'm 56) and I don't find it markedly more difficult to learn new ones. 

I suspect that the experience I've had learning previous ones makes learning new ones easier. It could be that if you have the mindset established, it's easier to learn new languages when you're older than if you embark on the project for the first time in middle age. You've seen most examples of variant constructions that can be used for expressing things in languages, especially if you've studied some non-European, and non-Indo-European, languages.  Also, you're not deterred by what are ultimately ancillary problems like an unfamiliar script or phonological items that don't occur in your own language; you have come to realize that these are transient problems and are overcome reasonably quickly with regular work. Currently I'm working on two South Asian languages and I don't find it particularly onerous.


----------



## karuna

I can really say if it is becoming much harder or not but now I enjoy learning languages much more than during my school years. In fact I hated it at school. One thing is that at that time there was a lot of pressure when teachers are saying you will need this language for your future job or career, but school marks never really motivated me to study harder. 

Now I can spend my time learning other language, let's say, as an entertaiment or intelectual game. And I have discovered that 
I enjoy the process very much and the results are also generally better than they were at school.


----------



## Qcumber

I tried to learn Czech when I turned 61, but wasn't able to remember much.
Besides, the choice of methods is very limited and these are not very good. For the best one (James NAUGHTON's) you need a teacher. So I gave up after a couple of months.


----------



## John-Paul

I'm learning French in English - it drives me nuts, because it feels like I have an English-French, English-Dutch and a Dutch-French dictionary in my head. Some words I have to translate from English to Dutch to French (mostly the simple words I learned at school). When I have to translate something into German it's even worse, because I don't have an English-German dictionary in my head - I have to tripletranslate everything.


----------



## Nunty

John-Paul, you made me laugh! I learned NT Greek in French, when I didn't know French all that well. I was 47 at the time, and I understand what you are saying! 

I think that of course the prior languages help us with the mindset necessary to learn a new one, as someone else pointed out, but there may also be something in the maturity that comes with age (in most cases!) that helps us relativize some things but also make connections to others.


----------



## Qcumber

Unless there is no other way, learning a langue through another foreign language is a mistake because your brain cannot directly relate your new knowledge to your core knowledge, and you'll have to make more efforts to keep the new knowledge


----------



## Nunty

You are right, Qcumber, but the first part of your sentence is the operative one


----------



## jester.

On the other hand, many people recommend learning a foreign language through another one in order to study both at the same time and to consolidate their knowledge in the first foreign language.


----------



## JazzByChas

This is, indeed an interesting thread!

I am now 52, and I am (re-)learning French. I started studying it back when I was about 15 in the 10th grade. I think that yes, it is a little harder to learn the new vocabulary/conjugations and all those other neat nuances in a different language, but I have found that if I just "let the force guide me," i.e. I read in french, and guess what is going on from the context, it is much easier than trying to subconsciously translate the meaning into english. Further, now I find it is almost easier to speak and write/read in French than it is to translate from one to the other. 

Now, of course, my analytical mind wants to be sure I understand exactly what is being said, so I must look up the meaning of phrases, which aren't necessarily the sum of their parts...but overall, it has always been hard for me to learn a new language because I am such a perfectionist, I try to know exactly what I want to say before I say it...but hey...I have learned that there is nothing wrong with a little linguistical "egg on one's face" from time to time!


----------



## ElaineG

Everything written says that the younger you are the easier time you'll have of it.

BUT, when I learned French as an adolescent, there was no Internet and no WRF!  I also couldn't go anywhere, which hampered things quite a bit.  I was also paralyzed by adolescent shyness, when I finally did get to spend a month in Quebec at 16, I didn't want to say anything if I was going to sound "stupid".

Learning Italian in my 30s was a comparative breeze -- my brain might have been stiffer, but the resources available to me -- particularly being able to _be_ in Italy, and of course, use the Internet and other computer based learning tools -- were infinitely greater.  

Most importantly, though, now that I am "old", I accept that I sound stupid much of the time in every language, so I have been much freer and easier, speaking Italian.


----------



## palomnik

Qcumber, I can't say that I agree with you; I agree with jester that learning a third language via a second language is a useful and productive way of reinforcing both languages.  I've used this in a number of situations; I learned much of my Japanese via Chinese, I've used Russian books to learn Chinese (in fact, the best Chinese dictionary I've ever used was a Russian one), and by necessity I've had to use Spanish books to learn native Mexican and South American languages.


----------



## Qcumber

palomnik said:


> Qcumber, I can't say that I agree with you; I agree with jester that learning a third language via a second language is a useful and productive way of reinforcing both languages. I've used this in a number of situations; I learned much of my Japanese via Chinese, I've used Russian books to learn Chinese (in fact, the best Chinese dictionary I've ever used was a Russian one), and by necessity I've had to use Spanish books to learn native Mexican and South American languages.


Can you hold a conversation in Chinese with a native speaker? Can you read a Chinese newspaper?


----------



## geve

At first I had read this thread's title as "Language learning in Middle Ages". Oh well, this topic will do. 


Etcetera said:


> In my group, there are students aged from 20 to 42.
> Younger students memorise new vocabulary quicker, but they have more difficulties in understanding grammar rules. Older students may think more before saying something, but when in the end they utter a sentence, it's usually much more correct grammatically than what a younger student can say after thinking for some 10 seconds.


Come to think of it, students above 50 in the French class where I volunteer tend to ask more complex grammar questions. The kind of questions I have difficulties answering. I hate middle age students!


----------



## Etcetera

geve said:


> At first I had read this thread's title as "Language learning in Middle Ages". Oh well, this topic will do.


I, too, thought at first that it must be about how people were learning languages in these times. 



> Come to think of it, students above 50 in the French class where I volunteer tend to ask more complex grammar questions. The kind of questions I have difficulties answering. I hate middle age students!


Yes, indeed. Whereas young people want to learn as many new words as possibly and as quickly as possibly, older students want to know more about what they already know. They always ask for more details.


----------



## Marga H

Hi Nun-Translator,
It is really nice to find out that somebody cares about my problems! I am 56 and I have been learning different things for different reasons since I can remember.In spite of permanent mental exercises I must confirm ( what has already been said by others ) that in my "middle age " I memorise much more slowly ( and I don't like it at all! ). As some consolation however: teaching languages myself I was able to work out my own methods of studying, useful for me. Also I am enjoying more learning languages just for fun, not for exams.


----------



## palomnik

Qcumber, to answer your question, yes, I can hold a discussion in Chinese with a native speaker.  Having said that, I must in all conscience point out that I didn't learn Chinese _exclusively _through Russian; I took an undergraduate degree in Chinese at an American university.  In fact, I can't say that I've studied any language exclusively through a second language with the exception of some native American languages I've studied, and I'd hardly consider myself fluent in any one of those.  I'm merely saying that study material in other languages can prove useful.


----------



## Sepia

geve said:


> At first I had read this thread's title as "Language learning in Middle Ages". Oh well, this topic will do.
> 
> Come to think of it, students above 50 in the French class where I volunteer tend to ask more complex grammar questions. The kind of questions I have difficulties answering. I hate middle age students!



Yes, that is probably true. Especially the students who already know a few foreign languages. It is simply a matter of structure - and you know how the grammar works in one of the similar languages. You know how to express what you want to know, put you answer into a "little boxes" - it is mainly like this and this that I already know, or it is different. It also speeds up the process a lot. 

However, many teachers have a problem with students who work like that.


----------



## John-Paul

Sepia said:


> Yes, that is probably true. Especially the students who already know a few foreign languages. It is simply a matter of structure - and you know how the grammar works in one of the similar languages. You know how to express what you want to know, put you answer into a "little boxes" - it is mainly like this and this that I already know, or it is different. It also speeds up the process a lot.
> 
> However, many teachers have a problem with students who work like that.



Can you give an example?


----------



## jester.

John-Paul said:


> Can you give an example?



Do you mean an example of similar structures?

Think of conditional sentences in Romance languages.


----------



## Qcumber

palomnik said:


> Qcumber, to answer your question, yes, I can hold a discussion in Chinese with a native speaker. Having said that, I must in all conscience point out that I didn't learn Chinese _exclusively _through Russian; I took an undergraduate degree in Chinese at an American university.


Whatever, congratulations. 
So it's very hard to determine how much Chinese you learned through Russian.


----------



## Nunty

Well, whatever Greek I know (still pretty basic), I learned and continue to learn in French. There is no other possibilty for me at the moment, and I don't find it too cumbersome. In fact, some of the explanations have helped improve my French.


----------

