# West of X



## larshgf

Hello,

Here a question about expressing a position of an Island (a town etc) in relation to another Island (town etc).
Not sure if the following sentences are correct:

Ικαρία βρίσκεται δυτικά της Σαμου
Ικάρια είναι στη δυτική της Σαμου

Best Regards
Lars


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## Perseas

larshgf said:


> Ικαρία βρίσκεται δυτικά της Σαμου
> Ικάρια είναι στη δυτική της Σαμου


Η Ικαρία βρίσκεται δυτικά της Σάμου. 
Η Ικαρία είναι στ*α* δυτικ*ά *της Σάμου.


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## larshgf

I guess that the - α ending is explained in both expressions by the fact that they are considered adverbs?


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## Perseas

Yes, adverbs.


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> στ*α* δυτικ*ά*





Perseas said:


> adverbs


I would agree that "στα δυτικά" is an adverbial expression. But it seems to be composed of a preposition, an article and an adjective in the plural. Can you explain the meaning of the whole expression by the meaning of its parts? (I wonder why it is in the plural, for example - or is it an adverb despite of the article?)

I'm sorry, I've already found the answer here:
Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής
(ως ουσ.) τα _δυτικά,_ το δυτικό τμήμα μιας περιοχής
(It just doesn't explain why it is in the plural.)


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I'm sorry, I've already found the answer here:
> Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής
> (ως ουσ.) τα _δυτικά,_ το δυτικό τμήμα μιας περιοχής
> (It just doesn't explain why it is in the plural.)


To the bottom it reads:
*δυτικά* *ΕΠIΡΡ* προς τη δυτική ή από τη δυτική πλευρά: _H ιταλική χερσόνησος βρίσκεται_ δυτικά _της Ελλάδας,_ *στα δυτικά*. _H Ελλάδα_ στα δυτικά _βρέχεται από το Iόνιο πέλαγος._


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## διαφορετικός

Hi Perseas,
Thanks for your answer.
Probably we have cross-posted above.
I don't have any doubt that "δυτικά" is (in many/most cases) an adverb. But in the expression "στα δυτικά", it looks like a noun, and the dictionary confirmed that in the expression "τα δυτικά" there is a noun ("ως ουσ."). I wonder why it is in the plural.


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## dmtrs

διαφορετικός said:


> the expression "στα δυτικά", it looks like a noun, and the dictionary confirmed that in the expression "τα δυτικά" there is a noun ("ως ουσ."). I wonder why it is in the plural.



It sure looks like the plural of an adjective. It is not, though. Δυτικά is an adverb, as Perseas wrote.
Your dictionary states it's a noun, because in Greek whatever word or phrase you put an article to becomes "a noun".
Examples:
Οι πάνω, ο μέσα, το χτες, το ποτέ, το ευχαριστώ, η καλημέρα...
Το μέσα έξω (it also has a "plural": τα μέσα έξω. Similarly: το/τα πάνω κάτω, το/τα μπρος πίσω...), το Κύριε ελέησον (see the proverb "Το πολύ το Κύριε ελέησον το βαριέται κι ο παπάς"), στο περίπου, το λέγε λέγε, στα καλά καθούμενα, στα αστεία... 
Τhe article in the plural, in my opinion, is suggested by the ending of the adverb that resembles the ending of an adjective in plural.


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I wonder why it is in the plural.


We often say in colloquial language "προς τα πάνω", "προς τα κάτω", "προς τα δεξιά", "προς τα αριστερά", "προς τα βόρεια", "προς τα νότια".

I don't understand the use of "τα ..." as plural, it's just a Greek expression.

cross-posted with dmtrs (I agree).

EDIT


διαφορετικός said:


> But in the expression "στα δυτικά", it looks like a noun, and the dictionary confirmed that in the expression "τα δυτικά" there is a noun ("ως ουσ."). I wonder why it is in the plural.


For example:
_Το πλοίο κατευθύνεται προς *τη Δύση* = Το πλοίο κατευθύνεται προς _*τα δυτικά. *(*τα* *δυτικά* functions like *τη* *Δύση*, which is a noun).


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## larshgf

Thank you διαφορετικός for raising this question and thanks to Perseas and Dmtrs for answering! 
Just reminding me of the fact (at least In my humble experience) that the Greek language is EXTREMELY complicated  

Wonder if it is possible to use this phrase: Η Ικαρία είναι δυτικά από την Σάμο.


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## διαφορετικός

This is funny, "τα" not denoting plural. Yes, I have often seen expressions like that, but thought that it must be explainable somehow.
Thanks to dmtrs and Perseas.


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## Perseas

larshgf said:


> Wonder if it is possible to use this phrase: Η Ικαρία είναι δυτικά από την Σάμο.


 



διαφορετικός said:


> This is funny, "τα" not denoting plural.


"στα δυτικά" just denotes direction, "to the West". It's an expression. Just like saying "προς τα πάνω" (upwards)/ "προς τα κάτω" (downwards)/"προς τα δεξιά" (to the right)/ "προς τα αριστερά" (to the left).

If you say "στα δυτικά χωριά", "δυτικά" is clearly plural adjective.


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## διαφορετικός

Thanks again, Perseas.

I would have guessed that the expression "στα δυτικά" has derived etymologically from "στα δυτικά μέρη" or something similar. At least, it seems to have the same meaning.


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> Thanks again, Perseas.
> 
> I would have guessed that the expression "στα δυτικά" has derived etymologically from "στα δυτικά μέρη" or something similar.


You are welcome. I see your point, which seems logical.
My opinion is that in "στα δυτικά" we have the prepositional article "στα" plus the adverb "δυτικά". It's not unusual in Greek to have the combination "neuter plural definite article" + "adverb": "προς τα πάνω", "προς τα πίσω", "στα σίγουρα", "στα κρυφά", "στα ξαφνικά", "στα όρθια".

But in any case, the important thing is in my opinion the adverbial usage of "στα δυτικά".


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> It's not unusual in Greek to have the combination "neuter plural definite article" + "adverb"


Since this phenomenon is rather independent of the concrete adverb, I understand that my etymological explanation is rather inappropriate.


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## Armas

*Στα αλήθεια* makes it quite clear that such expressions can't be analyzed as neuter plural, correct?


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## bearded

διαφορετικός said:


> it must be explainable somehow


In my mind it is explainable if you regard *τα δυτικά *as a neuter 'elliptic' plural, like ''the western(parts/places)'', as you said. And in all above combinations ''the things(neuter) that are above/behind..etc.''. From that, the language eventually adopted neuter plurals to form many adverbs.

--cross-posted with Armas--


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## Perseas

About "τα":
*3.* συχνά εμπρόθετο, με οποιοδήποτε μέρος του λόγου σε επιρρηματική χρήση _<often prepositional, with any part of speech in adverbial usage>_: _Στα ψέματα. Στα αλήθεια. Για τα καλά. Στα βαθιά. Στα ρηχά. Ως τα τώρα_. 
Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής

In Babiniotis' dictionary:
11β. (ουδ. πληθ. *τα*) πλεοναστικά <pleonastic>: _ώς τα σήμερα_ || _έλα προς τα κάτω_ (αντί <instead>- _έλα κάτω_).


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> About "τα":


This is interesting and shows how general (or wide-spread) the phenomenon is.



bearded said:


> In my mind it is explainable if you regard *τα δυτικά *as a neuter 'elliptic' plural


In many cases, it would be an acceptable explanation. But I don't know if it is etymologically correct.



Armas said:


> *Στα αλήθεια* makes it quite clear that such expressions can't be analyzed as neuter plural, correct?


This case cannot be explained like that (at least not by me), but maybe the origin of this case is different.


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## dmtrs

bearded said:


> From that, the language eventually adopted neuter plurals to form many adverbs.



The mechanism that gave us adverbs in -α (-ά) in modern Greek instead the -ως (-ῶς) ending in ancient Greek is thought to be different (through the plural of the adjective, anyway; you are right in this).

ἐνδύομαι πτωχά ἐνδύματα > ἐνδύομαι πτωχά (adj.) ἐνδύματα > (misunderstood as) ἐνδύομαι πτωχῶς (adv.) => πτωχῶς (adv.) >πτωχά (adv.)
λέγω καλούς λόγους > λέγω καλούς λόγους καλά (adj.) > (misunderstood as) λέγω καλῶς (adv.) => καλῶς (adv.) > καλά (adv.)

(The object that was etymologically linked to the verb was called _σύστοιχο _and was usually dropped as redundant; the accompanying adjective was usually transferred to neutral plural.)

(crossposting with someone)


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## bearded

Thank you, dmtrs. Very interesting.


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## dmtrs




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