# Cardinals & Ordinals



## linguist786

السلام عليكم

I have not come across the rules of using numbers (whether cardinals or ordinals) as of yet. I understand that in Arabic, it's a bit strange in that the ة/ـة does not appear for feminine words, and it _does_ for masculine words - is that right? So for example:

ثماني بنات (thamaanii banaat) but:
ثمانية رجال (thamaaniya rijaal)

Would that be correct?

Secondly, the ordinals:

First question is, are they gender-specific?

I guess the answer is yes, since I know of the difference between the two "first"s (uulaa & awwal) - but is that just an exception or do we have things like "ثامنة" (thaamina)

Secondly, if they _are_ gender-specific, are they also "the other way round" (e.g. الرجل الثامنة but الإمرأة الثامن)


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## elroy

Hi, Linguist.

You are right about the gender switch with cardinal numbers.  Masculine nouns take feminine numbers and vice versa.

As or the ordinal numbers, they _are _gender-specific but they do not go with nouns of the opposite gender.  They function like normal adjectives.

الرجل الأول، الامرأة الأولي
الرجل الثاني، الامرأة الثانية
etc.


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## linguist786

Thanks elroy!

Another question:

Is the word order always like that for the cardinals? (like in English) or can it ever be the other way round (noun first, then number). For example "رجال ثماني" or something like that?


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## elroy

It can be, but not in your example.  The word order would switch if there were a definite article.
 
the eight men - الرجال الثمانية
 
In this case the gender of the number is always feminine. 
 
the eight women - النساء الثمانية


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## ayed

elroy said:


> the eight women - النساء الثمانية


النساء *الثمان*


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## cherine

وعليك السلام يا محمد
You're asking about one of the most complicating things for me  Whenever I want to write numbers, I almost always get back to my grammar book first 
Well, here's the rule from the book :
*1, 2* *follows *the gender of the words.
 الأعداد من 3 إلى 9 تكون على عكس المعدود تذكيرًا وتأنيثًا (سواء أكانت مفردة أم مركبة أم معطوفًا عليها) وعند تحديد نوع المعدود يُنظر دائمًا إلى مفرده
العدد 10 يكون على عكس المعدود إذا كان مفردًا، ومن نوع المعدود إذا كان مركبًا ​Which means: from 3 to 9, numbers are the opposite of the gender of the word. And to determine the word's gender we look at the singular not the plural
*10* is the *opposite* of the word's gender *if it's "simple"* (i.e. just 10), and the takes the *same gender when it's composite* (i.e 11-19).
Examples :
قرأتُ أربعةَ كتب
بالمنزل خمسُ حجرات
حضر عشرةُ رجال
حضرت عشرُ سيدات
رأى يوسفُ أحد عشرَ كوكبًا
​


ayed said:


> النساء *الثمان*


Yes, we say النساء الثمان، السماوات السبع (the eight women, the seven skies)
But we say المرأة الثامنة the eighth woman.


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## elroy

cherine said:


> Yes, we say النساء الثمان، السماوات السبع (the eight women, the seven skies)


 I stand corrected, then.  I was not aware that the "opposite gender" rule applied even with a definite article.  النساء الثمانية sounded good to me, but this was probably yet another dialectal influence!
 
Also, I wanted to mention that in my comment about cardinal numbers in my first post I was just referring to the numbers 3-10, since, as Cherine stated, the numbers 1 and 2 do agree in gender with the nouns they go with.  I was not thinking about them when I (hastily) answered.


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## cherine

elroy said:


> النساء الثمانية sounded good to me



It sounded good to me too  but then I remembered that in the Qur'an there's a verse saying ربّ السموات السبع so I stood corrected too  


> Also, I wanted to mention that in my comment about cardinal numbers in my first post I was just referring to the numbers 3-10, since, as Cherine stated, the numbers 1 and 2 do agree in gender with the nouns they go with. I was not thinking about them when I (hastily) answered.


We usually don't think about them because they don't really represent a problem. The problem is always with the numbers from 3-10


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## Abu Bishr

All of النساء الثمان ,النساء الثماني and النساء الثمانية are correct.You can either apply the number rule or the "Sifah-mawSuuf" rule. Using more MSA examples: الدول الثلاث and الدول الثلاثة are both correct - the first because of the number rule and the second because of the "Sifah-maSuuf" rule. As for الثماني and الثمان it is just because of takhfiif (easy pronunciation) in the latter.


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## elroy

Glad to know I wasn't totally off the mark.  

As a matter of fact, although النساء الثمان and السموات السبع sound good to me, there are other masculine-feminine combinations that sound horrible to me - البنات الست, for example.  It would probably be wise for learners of Arabic to always go with the feminine.


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## Qureshpor

In Arabic "three books" would be ثلاثةُ کتب (thalaathatu kutubin)....

If I wanted to say, "the three books", would all the following be correct?

ُالکتبُ الثلاثة 

الثلاثةُ الکتبِ

الثلاثةُ کتب (aththalaathatu kutubin)

ثلاثةُ الکتبِ

According to an Arabic grammar book by Thatcher (page 235), apparently کتب ثلاثة is also found, though rare, for "three books". Is this still acceptable in this day and age?


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## Romeel

بعد تفكير  أرى أن لكل واحدة معنى مختلف

أدق ترجمة ل the three books هي "الکتبُ الثلاثة"
*الكتب الثلاثة* معرّفة كوحدة واحدة للمتكلم والمستمع

مثل: هذه هي *الكتب الثلاثة*
This is the three books 

ثلاثة كتب = three books
قرأت ثلاثة كتب = I read three books


الثلاثةُ کتب
This when eg someone ask what are these? you respond saying: الثلاثة (هي) كتب

ثلاثةُ الکتبِ
This when eg you give someone three books as a part of many others: خُذ ثلاثة الكتب

الثلاثةُ الکتبِ
؟؟؟ لا أدري لكن كأنّ الكتب هنا زادة


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> الثلاثةُ الکتبِ
> ؟؟؟ لا أدري لكن كأنّ الكتب هنا زادة


Thank you for your kind response @Romeel. This form is given in one of the Arabic grammar books I have been looking into.


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> Thank you for your kind response @Romeel. This form is given in one of the Arabic grammar books I have been looking into.


If you mean he is using الثلاثة الكتب like الكتب الثلاثة maybe it is okay


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> If you mean he is using الثلاثة الكتب like الكتب الثلاثة maybe it is okay


ِالثلاثةُ الكتب

See page 378 of Modern Standard Arabic - Alhawary

Modern Standard Arabic Grammar: A Learner’s Guide | Mohammad T. Alhawary | download


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> ِالثلاثةُ الكتب
> 
> See page 378 of Modern Standard Arabic - Alhawary
> 
> Modern Standard Arabic Grammar: A Learner’s Guide | Mohammad T. Alhawary | download


The link is not working for me

But generally we use الكتب الثلاثة


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> The link is not working for me
> 
> But generally we use الكتب الثلاثة


You open the link and click on download.


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## Romeel

The link is not working for me at all


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