# brauchen/gebrauchen



## Salbei

Hello!
I found a text that talks about "Wahrsagen", and I'm not sure if the verbs "brauchen" or "gebrauchen" or both are possible in the sentence, and what would be its translation.

Context:
"Sie werden ein Haus bauen. Aber es wird viele Probleme geben. Sie werden jede Unterstützung *brauchen/gebrauchen* können. Gehen Sie am besten gleich zu einer Rechtsanwältin."


Danke !


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## Jana337

Hola Salbei, 

"could use" übersetzt man "gebrauchen können". Mit brauchen würde mir der Satz seltsam klingen, du solltest aber auf die Meinung der Muttersprachler warten.

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Hola Salbei,
> 
> "could use" übersetzt man "gebrauchen können". Mit brauchen würde mir der Satz seltsam klingen, du solltest aber auf die Meinung der Muttersprachler warten.
> 
> Jana


Jana, I think this would be wrong:

"Sie werden jede Unterstützung *brauchen* können."

I believe this would mean: "They will be able to NEED…", which is impossible unless I am missing something. I think it must be "gebrauchen"—they will be able to USE…"

Just another guess by a non-native. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

Google kann sich ebenso wenig wie ich für eine Variante entscheiden. Ich denke, dass in der Umgangssprache "brauchen" tatsächlich öfter zu hören ist, aber man sollte in der Standardsprache sicherlich "gebrauchen" verwenden. 

Ich hoffe, Ralf, Jens oder andere Muttersprachler haben das gleiche Sprachgefühl, damit ich nicht der Einzige bin, der sich nicht entscheiden kann.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Jana, I think this would be wrong:
> 
> "Sie werden jede Unterstützung *brauchen* können."
> 
> I believe this would mean: "They will be able to NEED…", which is impossible unless I am missing something. I think it must be "gebrauchen"—they will be able to USE…"
> 
> Just another guess by a non-native.
> 
> Gaer


 
Hi Gaer,

good to have you here again. 

Would it be impossible to say They'll be in need of any support from us" in English?


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## MrMagoo

Hi Salbei,

according to your context, I would chose "*brauchen*";
"Sie werden jede Unterstützung brauchen können":

=> "Es wird Probleme geben"
This means that support is needed, support cannot be "used"; this will be clearer when you have a look at the simple sentences:
"Ich brauche Unterstützung" vs. "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung":
---> "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung" does not really make sense.

Most Germans are usually not aware of the distinction between "brauchen" and "gebrauchen" (neither am I)- Grammarians complained about that 100 years ago already, so it won't be such a big mistake if you used "gebrauchen" when "brauchen" would be correct... 


All the best
-MrMagoo


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## Jana337

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Hi Salbei,
> 
> according to your context, I would chose "*brauchen*";
> "Sie werden jede Unterstützung brauchen können":
> 
> => "Es wird Probleme geben"
> This means that support is needed, support cannot be "used"; this will be clearer when you have a look at the simple sentences:
> "Ich brauche Unterstützung" vs. "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung":
> ---> "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung" does not really make sense.


 Hallo Jens,

ist es eine große Frechheit, einem Muttersprachler mit einem exzellenten Sprachgefühl zu widersprechen? 

Die Umschreibung des Satzes ändert natürlich die Situation.

Es ist mir kalt. Ich brauche einen Pulli.  Ich gebrauche einen Pulli. 
Es ist mir kalt. Ich könnte einen Pulli brauchen.  Ich könnte einen Pulli gebrauchen. 

Bin ich auf dem Holzweg?

Jana


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## MrMagoo

Jein - ich sagte ja, daß auch wir Muttersprachler hier nicht immer genau unterscheiden (und da das schon vor 100 Jahren ein Problem war, wird sich das wohl gehalten haben ) -

Ich brauche einen Pulli = I need a pullover  
Ich gebrauche einen Pulli = I use a pullover  
Ich könnte einen Pulli brauchen = "_I could need a pullover_"  (in German)

"Ich könnte einen Pulli gebrauchen" bedeutete "I could use a pullover"; nach strikten Regeln wäre das falsch, aber der allgemeine Sprachgebrauch unterscheidet hier nicht mehr.

Ich werd' mal eine kleine Passage aus dem alten Büchlein über "brauchen/gebrauchen" zitieren, wenn ich die Stelle gefunden habe


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Es ist mir kalt. Ich brauche einen Pulli.  Ich gebrauche einen Pulli.
> Es ist mir kalt. Ich könnte einen Pulli brauchen.  Ich könnte einen Pulli gebrauchen.


 
"Ich gebrauche einen Pulli" ist möglich, wenn auch äußerst selten. Stell dir folgendes vor: Mein Freund rutscht an der Klippe ab und konnte sich geradeso noch an einem Stock festhalten. Da musste ich meinen Pulli nutzen/benutzen/gebrauchen (brauchen  ), damit ich ihn wieder hochziehen wollte.

Also, was ich sagen will ist, dass "gebrauchen" eigentlich im Sinne von "nutzen" oder "benutzen" (wo ist hier der Unterschied? ) _verwenden/gebrauchen/nutzen/benutzen_ könnte.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Google kann sich ebenso wenig wie ich für eine Variante entscheiden. Ich denke, dass in der Umgangssprache "brauchen" tatsächlich öfter zu hören ist, aber man sollte in der Standardsprache sicherlich "gebrauchen" verwenden.
> 
> Ich hoffe, Ralf, Jens oder andere Muttersprachler haben das gleiche Sprachgefühl, damit ich nicht der Einzige bin, der sich nicht entscheiden kann.


Who, I flipped them. No idea why. When I looked at it today, without thinking, I saw instantly that I reversed them.

Very strange.

Gaer


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> "Ich könnte einen Pulli gebrauchen" bedeutete "I could use a pullover"; nach strikten Regeln wäre das falsch, aber der allgemeine Sprachgebrauch unterscheidet hier nicht mehr.


This is really strange, since "I could use a pullover" is so common in English. If I said that, I would mean that it is cold and I don't have one, but having one certainly would be useful and possibly keep me from getting a cold. 

Gaer


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Ich könnte einen Pulli brauchen = "_I could need a pullover_"  (in German)


Is this because in this case the translation would be "might"? I might need a pullover?

Wow, this is so confusing out of context! I don't think I've ever misunderstood a sentence using brauchen and gebrauchen, but I've never thought about it, and the more I think about it, the more confusing it is becoming! 

Gaer


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## Salbei

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Hi Salbei,
> 
> according to your context, I would chose "*brauchen*";
> "Sie werden jede Unterstützung brauchen können":
> 
> => "Es wird Probleme geben"
> This means that support is needed, support cannot be "used"; this will be clearer when you have a look at the simple sentences:
> "Ich brauche Unterstützung" vs. "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung":
> ---> "Ich gebrauche Unterstützung" does not really make sense.
> 
> Most Germans are usually not aware of the distinction between "brauchen" and "gebrauchen" (neither am I)- Grammarians complained about that 100 years ago already, so it won't be such a big mistake if you used "gebrauchen" when "brauchen" would be correct...
> 
> 
> All the best
> -MrMagoo





Ok, now I understand what you mean in this context. I just asked because that sentence is repeated twice in my "Kursbuch" (Tangram 3, Hueber) and it has a different verb in each one, so I thought one of them had to be wrong, but I didn't know which one.

Thanks to all of you. You are very helpful people and that encourages me to keep learning German!

Marina


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## gaer

Salbei said:
			
		

> Ok, now I understand what you mean in this context. I just asked because that sentence is repeated twice in my "Kursbuch" (Tangram 3, Hueber) and it has a different verb in each one, so I thought one of them had to be wrong, but I didn't know which one.
> 
> Thanks to all of you. You are very helpful people and that encourages me to keep learning German!
> 
> Marina


Just remember that there are always many other people learning here, along with you. 

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Who, I flipped them. No idea why. When I looked at it today, without thinking, I saw instantly that I reversed them.
> 
> Very strange.
> 
> Gaer


 
Hi Gaer,

in this case "gebrauchen" also fits, now that I think about it...
Semantically "use" is correct as well as "need" in this kind of context;
in my opinion, the differenciation between "brauchen" and "gebrauchen" tends to be lost (formally, not semantically) and so even us native speakers aren't really aware of the two forms.


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Hi Gaer,
> 
> in this case "gebrauchen" also fits, now that I think about it...
> Semantically "use" is correct as well as "need" in this kind of context;
> in my opinion, the differenciation between "brauchen" and "gebrauchen" tends to be lost (formally, not semantically) and so even us native speakers aren't really aware of the two forms.


Sure, but consider this:

Ich gebrauche etwas zu essen. 

I know this is an extreme case, but I'm not going to let myself off the hook so easily. Trust me, I had a major  "brain-fart" yesterday. 

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Sure, but consider this:
> 
> Ich gebrauche etwas zu essen.
> 
> I know this is an extreme case, but I'm not going to let myself off the hook so easily. Trust me, I had a major  "brain-fart" yesterday.
> 
> Gaer


 
It _does_ work if you said "Ich könnte etwas zu essen gebrauchen" (= I could use something to eat); 

"Ich _ge_brauche etwas zu essen" would mean that you have to "use" some food as a kind of tool to do something else...


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> It _does_ work if you said "Ich könnte etwas zu essen gebrauchen" (= I could use something to eat);
> 
> "Ich _ge_brauche etwas zu essen" would mean that you have to "use" some food as a kind of tool to do something else...


Well, if you are planning a food fight using only food fit to eat.


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Well, if you are planning a food fight using only food fit to eat.


 
Right - then you can say "Ich gebrauche etwas zu essen, um Dich zu attackieren" (I could also use something else, but here, "food" might be appropriate *hehe*)

"Ich brauche etwas zu essen" would imply that food would be the best thing to attack you with. I've been trying it with something else the whole time, but nothing would be as effective as food.


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Right - then you can say "Ich gebrauche etwas zu essen, um Dich zu attackieren" (I could also use something else, but here, "food" might be appropriate *hehe*)
> 
> "Ich brauche etwas zu essen" would imply that food would be the best thing to attack you with. I've been trying it with something else the whole time, but nothing would be as effective as food.


Has anyone mentioned the obvious problem that both verbs form the same participle?


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Has anyone mentioned the obvious problem that both verbs form the same participle?


 
Not yet - but in these cases, we only had present tense forms or the infinitive; Gaer, are you planning to confuse us?! *hehehe*


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Not yet - but in these cases, we only had present tense forms or the infinitive; Gaer, are you planning to confuse us?! *hehehe*


Actually, no. 

This was once a very hard thing for me to understand. How could two completely different verbs (potentially in meaning) have the exact same participle?

But there may be something just like that in English that I've never noticed. You know how it is: we notice these things in any additional languages because we stumble over them, but in our own we remain blissfully unaware until people ask us questions. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> This was once a very hard thing for me to understand. How could two completely different verbs (potentially in meaning) have the exact same participle?


 
It seems to be almost quite normal in German.  Here's an older topic dealing with the same problem.


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Actually, no.
> 
> This was once a very hard thing for me to understand. How could two completely different verbs (potentially in meaning) have the exact same participle?
> 
> But there may be something just like that in English that I've never noticed. You know how it is: we notice these things in any additional languages because we stumble over them, but in our own we remain blissfully unaware until people ask us questions.
> 
> Gaer


 

This might happen in English as well; not especially the past participle, I think (even though I think there might be some anyways), but for some other forms of verbs.

While I was in Northern Ireland two and a half years ago, I asked my Irish friend whether it was allowed over there to lie in court.
She was wondering but told me that I would never have to lie in court while I was over there, as it is by no means legal!

You can imagine what I did? 
Have a look at this:





(The picture shows me lying in court! - I just couldn't resist...*g*)


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> This might happen in English as well; not especially the past participle, I think (even though I think there might be some anyways), but for some other forms of verbs.
> 
> While I was in Northern Ireland two and a half years ago, I asked my Irish friend whether it was allowed over there to lie in court.
> She was wondering but told me that I would never have to lie in court while I was over there, as it is by no means legal!
> 
> You can imagine what I did?
> Have a look at this:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/MrMagoo/LyingInCourt.jpg
> (The picture shows me lying in court! - I just couldn't resist...*g*)


Laughing!!! 

Gaer


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