# Al-Andalus/Al-Maghreb



## xav

Hello,

Does "al-Andalous" mean "the West" ? I thought "the West" was the meaning of "Maghreb", by opposition to "Mashrek" ?


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## cherine

Salut Xav et bienvenue au forum arabe 
Al-andolous is simply the Arabic pronounciation or name of the *Vandal*'s land (at least this is the etymology I know).
And yes you're right; maghreb is west (most precisely : the place where the sun goes down), and mashrek is east (the place where the sun come up).


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## DAH

but was not the meaning of Morocco, the west or what was the more percise meaning of Morocco?


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## cherine

Little add :
maghrib is : the place *where* the sun sets.
al-gharb = the *west*.
when we speak of the cardinal points we say : shamaal, januub, sharq, gharb (North, East, South, West).

Further morpholigical explanation :
maghrib is what's known in Arabic as *ism al-makaan* (noun indicating the place of an action) the ism al-makaan is derivated from the same root of the verb of the action:
*gh-r-b: *maghrib (ism makaan of the place where the sun sets), gharuba (verb in the past, we say gharubat ash-ashamsu: the sun set) 
*sh-r-q:* mashriq : (ism makan for the place where the sun rises), ashraqat (past tense of the verb, ashraqit ash-shamsu means the sun rose)
*l-3-b:* mal3ab (place where people play, or simply the playground), la3iba: verb that means to play.

I hope I didn't get too much off topic, just wanted to add this tip.
Dear moderator, feel free to split the thread where/when you see right.


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## Outsider

linguanaut said:
			
		

> Morocco in Arabic is "al maghrib", meaning "where the sun sets" [...]


Spanish and Portuguese have analogous words, _poniente/poente_.

And the Middle East is sometimes called the _levante_, where the sun rises.


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## xav

Merci, Cherine, pour ces passionnantes explications.
As you know, in French

- the word "Maghreb" (prononcé à la française : "magrèb") exists and means "the western part of North Africa, from Morocco to Tunesia" (Morocco is called "Maroc")
(we are not so far from Andalousia, after all...)

- we have, for "East", the more poetic words "Orient" and "Levant", which have the same meaning as "Mashrek" in Arab (Latin "orior" = French "se lever") ; and for "West", Occident", "Ponant" and "Couchant" (Latin "occidere" & "ponere" = French "tomber" & "poser").




> *Al maghrib: Morocco, third prayer in Islam*


? Is there a prayer in each cardinal direction ?


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## cherine

Salut Xav,
Maghreb is used in Arabic the same way as you metioned: to refer to the countries between Morocco ad Tunisia (sometimes it extends to Lybia and Moritania too)
It's interesting how the different languages chose for the East and West the same origin : the sun's movement 
As for the Muslim prayers, i'll only add to what Linguanaut said, what i've already said in post #6 about ism al-makan. The word maghrib, in what concerns prayers, is an ism zaman: a word expressing time, not an ism makan. It's because this prayer's time is at the sunset. The prayers in Islam don't have anything to do with cardinal point for the simple reason that they are directed to one point: Mecca.


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## cherine

DAH said:
			
		

> but was not the meaning of Morocco, the west


Yes, Maghreb is called so because it lies to the west. I'm not sure, though, of the word Morocco itself : is it just a variation of the Arabic name, or does it have another etymology


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## lampiao

Say cherine, I thought "al gharb" meant "the south", since the name of the southernmost portuguese province is Algarve, and we [portuguese] all know that that name derives from the arabic...


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## cherine

This indeed is amazing. But South means al-janub. Maybe Algarve was named so because it is to the West of Al-Andalus (the actual Spain) ? Just guessing


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## Outsider

And in the West of the Medieval Islamic world, perhaps.


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## lampiao

Well, I guess I'll have to change my perspective on that matter 
It's good to know the -REAL- meaning of the word


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## lampiao

by the way, 





> Al-Andalus


 is a spanish region located on the south of Spain


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## cherine

Yes you're right, that's why I said that al-andalus (of that time) is the actual spain, actually it's the actual Spain AND Portugal 
Now it's only a region of modern Spain. 
And yes Outsider, I think you're right too


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## Outsider

Outsider said:
			
		

> And in the West of the Medieval Islamic world, perhaps.


Or maybe they just thought it was in the West of al-Andalus. It makes more sense this way.


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## cherine

That's what I suggested in post#13
So we agree then


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## Outsider

Yes, you did. In my haste to post my idea I had missed yours.


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## cherine

No problem. I'm glad we agree


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## xav

linguanaut said:
			
		

> and about your question concerning the prayer, "al maghrib" here refers to a specific time, there are five prayers, each one of them is done in a certain time.


So, if the third one is done at sunset, does it mean there are still two afterwards, in the night ? Perhaps when stars appear, and when going to sleep ?

What are the names of the four other ones, with their translation ?


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## cherine

Cher Xav,
Maghreb is the Fourth prayer.
Daily Muslim prayers are to be performed at determined times of the day: dawn (fajr or sub'h), noon (zuhr), midafternoon (asr), sunset (maghrib), and evening (isha). The dawn, noon, and sunset prayers do not start exactly at dawn, noon, and sunset; instead, they begin just after, to distinguish the Islamic ritual from earlier practices of worshiping the sun when it rises or sets.


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## Fernando

Well, given that Algarve was the westmost part of Islamic Europe maybe we will never know. And obviously, Al-Andalus (I can be wrong here) comprised both current Portuguese and Spanish territories.


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## cherine

Yes, for a certain period (not too many years) Al-Andalus did in fact comprise both current Portugal and Spain. Then it was only the region of Andalucia.
Then the Arabs were thrown out of it all.


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## Fernando

Well, it is the shortest way of telling 800 years of History (711-1492) I have ever heard.


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## cherine

Glad you liked it ;-)


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## xav

Thank you very much, Cherine - I'm preparing a small presentation of islam.


			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Al-Andalus (I can be wrong here) comprised both current Portuguese and Spanish territories.


Except, I suppose, the Basque country, Asturias and Galice ?


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## Fernando

You are right. Most Galicia, Asturias, Santander, Basque Country and Pyrinees were never occupied or just suffered ocassional "razzias" (raids). By AD 800, a more or less stable frontier was stablished in the Duero/Douro river till say 1000. By 1200 Muslim rule only comprised current Andalusia and Algarve had been taken by Portugal.


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## xav

So, my last question on this theme is a 1000 € one :

Why did the Arabs call Spain "Andalus" from the Vandal's name, when Vandals were in northern Africa as they came ?? 
In Spain did the Wisigots reign, capital Toledo.

The Arabs called

- "Maghreb", the Latin "Africa" (today's Maghreb), which was owned by the Vandals ;

- "Andalous", Spain, occupied by the Wisigots.

??


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## Outsider

Before the Vandals settled in North Africa, they spent some time in Iberia. For some reason, their name became associated with the peninsula. I'm not sure why.


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## Fernando

Vandals invaded Northern Africa travelling via Spain. They ruled all W Mediterranean Sea (Morocco, Argelia, Tunisia, Sicily, Balearic Island and...Andalusia).

Eventually, wisigoths (who were stablished in S France and N Spain) expelled vandals from most Spain and byzantines ended the job, taking Vandalusia from vandals (and vandals' capital in current Tunisia).

Eventually, Franks expelled wisigoths from nowadays France except Septimania and wisigoths expelled byzantines from Vandalusia.

The rest is history 

Please, send my € 1,000 check to PO Box 001 Madrid


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## DAH

xav said:
			
		

> Thank you very much, Cherine - I'm preparing a small presentation of islam.
> Except, I suppose, the Basque country, Asturias and Galice ?


 
mostly definitely the Basque language is not derived from any Indo-European language. I believe the Asturians also use the Basque language and (*Galicians (west of Asturia) use a language linguistically related to the original Iberians (the Iberians (Basque, Catalans, Galicians and Asturians) were the one's that the Romans had the most difficulty killing off, when the Romans conquered the pensiula. Before the Romans, the Peloponnesians and Greeks settled southern Spain, but not the northern part.) I say this parenthically because I don't have the reference material with me.) Arabic is linguistically an Indo-European language, is it not?


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## lampiao

Dah, I don't know if the galicians have a dialect that's completely different from spanish and portuguese, but they do speak a bit of a mixture of spanish and portuguese... Or so I think


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## Outsider

DAH said:
			
		

> mostly definitely the Basque language is not derived from any Indo-European language.


I think you may have misunderstood the topic of this conversation, DAH...  
I will reply to part of your post here. As the rest is not related to the subject of this thread, I will reply to it, and to *lampiao*'s post through private message.



			
				DAH said:
			
		

> [...]Before the Romans, the Peloponnesians and Greeks settled southern Spain, but not the northern part.) I say this parenthically because I don't have the reference material with me.)


You are right about that.



			
				DAH said:
			
		

> Arabic is linguistically an Indo-European language, is it not?


No, Arabic belongs to a different language family, called Afro-Asiatic. See this page.


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## Fernando

PD: I did not see outsider post.

Off topic, but:



			
				DAH said:
			
		

> mostly definitely the Basque language is not derived from any Indo-European language.
> 
> Right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the Asturians also use the Basque language
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very Doubtful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and (*Galicians (west of Asturia) use a language linguistically related to the original Iberians (the Iberians (Basque, Catalans, Galicians and Asturians)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No. Iberians = W Spain, Celts = E Spain (Galicia included) (broadly speaking)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before the Romans, the Peloponnesians and Greeks settled southern Spain, but not the northern part.) I say this parenthically because I don't have the reference material with me.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Peloponnesians were Greek. They settled in the Mediterranena coast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabic is linguistically an Indo-European language, is it not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is semitic.
Click to expand...


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## elroy

_Just a friendly reminder to remain on topic. 

We are discussing the origins and meanings of "Al-Andalus" and "Al-Maghreb," and possible derivatives thereof, in Arabic (not an Indo-European language, by the way)._

_Thanks!_


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## Fernando

Other explanations for "Al-Andalus":

1) Meaning "The Heaven". I can not speak Arabic, so it is impossible to me to endorse such a meaning.

2) Coming from a German term. There is a good explanation in wikipedia (1) (though it endorses this origin, the weirdest and less extended I have ever heard).

(1) I have checked the Spanish wiki.


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## Outsider

Ultimately, the word does come from a Germanic term, since the Vandals were a Germanic tribe.


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## cherine

I agree with Outsider.

Fernando, the "Heaven" thing is very very strange. The Arabic word for Heaven in Firdaws فـردوس, or Jannah جـنة. So, you see, it can't be the etymology. Though al-Andalous WAS indeed a heaven on earth 
Here's the English wiki for the possibilities of the etymology.


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## MarcB

Morroco = maghreb al awsat the farthest west.Based on sun set. Al andalous has already been answered.


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## cherine

Are you sure about that ? al-awsat means middle (like we say "ash-shark al-awsat" for Middle East.
Morroco is in fact al-maghrib al-aqsa (the furthest west)


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## MarcB

Cherine, of course you are right. my mistake


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## AlGoRiS

I know my post comes late but it's just in order to precise something the English word Morocco (Marokko in german Maroc in french and Marrueccos in spanish) is originally the name of a moroccan city :Marrakesh that was the capital of the country for a long while  Morocco is AlMaghrib Al Aqsa in medieval texts but the Moroccan Empire included Algeria Tunisia and the Andalous under the Morabitin and Mowahidin dinasties


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## Gharnaty

Thank you for all explanations.
They were all very interesting!


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## gusfand

cherine said:


> Maghreb is used in Arabic the same way as you metioned: to refer to the countries between Morocco ad Tunisia (sometimes it extends to Lybia and Moritania too)





cherine said:


> Morroco is in fact al-maghrib al-aqsa (the furthest west)


Morocco =  al-maghrib al-aqsa
Maghreb = al-maghrib al-3araby


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## Tracer

Just a note:  

Recent linguistic research confirms that the word "Andaluz(s)" predates the Roman conquest of Iberia (c. 200 BC).  This means several things:

1.  The word "Andaluz" does not come from the tribal name "Vandal" because the Vandals did not enter Spain until around 400 AD, or about 600 years AFTER the Roman conquest.  That is to say, the term "Andaluz" existed before both the Roman and Vandals ever set foot in Iberia.

2.  The Arab conquest of Spain took place several centuries after the arrival of the Vandals.  

Bottom line:  The term "Andaluz" existed before the Roman invasion, before the Vandal invasion and long before the Arab invasion of Iberia.  Therefore, "Andaluz" was a term the Arabs adopted from an already existing usage.

Therefore, to state that modern Spanish term "Andalusia" "comes" from Arabic is simply incorrect. In fact, the reverse (with modifications) is more likely the case.

The "impact" of the Arab conquest upon Spanish language and culture has often been exaggerated and almost always misinterpreted. 

For example, I recently read on this forum (and other places) that something like 30% of modern Spanish words "comes from" Arabic. As a native Spanish speaker, I can assure you that that assertion is totally laughable and completely without foundation.


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## Outsider

Tracer said:


> Recent linguistic research confirms that the word "Andaluz(s)" predates the Roman conquest of Iberia (c. 200 BC).


That seems extraordinary. What research are you referring to, specifically?


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## Miguel Antonio

lampiao said:


> Dah, I don't know if the galicians have a dialect that's completely different from spanish and portuguese, but they do speak a bit of a mixture of spanish and portuguese... Or so I think


Quite frankly, I don't know either, out of the dozens or maybe even hundreds of Galician dialects spoken from one valley to the next, they are as different from one another or from Spanish and Portuguese as you may want them to be... And you think wrong, *we do not speak a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese*, but a language that was common to that of the County of Portus Cale in the early middle ages, from where a sister (or daughter?) language evolved: Portuguese. The only people I have ever met in my life (and quite a few, actually) who speak a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese are Portuguese language natives, such a hybrid is known as portuñol.


Tracer said:


> Recent linguistic research confirms that the word "Andaluz(s)" predates the Roman conquest of Iberia (c. 200 BC).  This means several things:
> 
> 1.  The word "Andaluz" does not come from the tribal name "Vandal" because the Vandals did not enter Spain until around 400 AD, or about 600 years AFTER the Roman conquest.  That is to say, the term "Andaluz" existed before both the Roman and Vandals ever set foot in Iberia.


As Outsider above, I too would very much like to learn more about this interesting theory that you are postulating. In fact, if your assumptions were to be true, the Vandals may have adopted an earlier toponymic or patronymic reference to give themselves a name, which in turn could have evolved to the Arabic "Andalus".

We look forward to your clarifications.


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## Tracer

TO: Messrs. OUTSIDER and MIGUEL ANTONIO

Voila!

========================
Etymology of al-Andalus

"The etymology of the word "al-Andalus" is disputed. Furthermore, the extent of Iberian territory encompassed by the name changed over the centuries. As a designation for Iberia or its southern portion, the name is first attested by inscriptions on coins minted by the new Muslim government in Iberia circa 715 (the uncertainty in the year is due to the fact that the coins were bilingual in Latin and Arabic and the two inscriptions differ as to the year of minting).


*At least three specific etymologies have been proposed in Western scholarship, all presuming that the name arose after the Roman period** in the Iberian Peninsula's history.* Their originators or defenders have been historians. 

*----->> Recently, linguistics expertise has been brought to bear on the issue.* Arguments from toponymy (the study of place names), history, and language structure demonstrate *the lack of substance in all preceding proposals,* and evidence has been presented *that the name predates, rather than postdates, the Roman occupation.*<-----

A major objection to all earlier proposals is that the *very name Andaluz* (the equivalent of _Andalus_ in Spanish spelling) *exists in several places in mountainous areas of Castile.* Furthermore, *the fragment and- is common in Spanish place names, *and the *fragment -luz also occurs several times across Spain.*

The name "Andalusia" or "Vandalusia" was traditionally believed to be derived from "Vandal" (the Germanic tribe) that colonized parts of Iberia from 407 to 429). *However, there is no historical reference to support this."*
*======================*

My specific source is:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus


Altho Wikipedia cannot usually be considered a "legitimate" source, in this particular case, *the article provides specific academic references* to the statments made.



Therefore, I take it as legitimate and I stand by my original statement *that the "Arabic" term Al-Andaluz was not Arabic at all and that therefore the term Andalusia did not "come from" the Arabic. The reality is that exactly the opposite occurred. Arabic adapted the name from an already existing designation.*


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