# rather prefer...



## 1plato

How does one diplomatically put:  'If you would rather prefer (that...)' ?  Is this use of the subjunctive tense?


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## Schimmelreiter

_Wenn (es) dir lieber ist, dass ...


_The correlate _es_, representing the subject clause introduced by the conjunction _dass_, is optional.

I don't quite get what you mean by _diplomatically_. Depending on what follows, I can't guarantee that your marriage will survive the sentence.

Isn't _prefer_ redundant in your sentence?
_If you'd rather I buy you a Ferrari, I'll send the Lambo back.
_Is _buy _the subjunctive you mean? German doesn't use the subjunctive at this point.


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## ABBA Stanza

1plato said:


> How does one diplomatically put:  'If you would rather prefer (that...)' ?  Is this use of the subjunctive tense?


I think you could almost do a direct translation here, even if such cautious politeness is not as frequently encountered in the German language as it is in English:

_Wenn Sie es lieber vorziehen würden, dass ..._

I agree with SR that "rather prefer" seems a bit tautological, but it is sometimes used, and a web search for "lieber vorziehen" returns quite a few hits as well, if that goes to prove anything ...

By the way, w_ürden _is Konjunktiv (II), which is not always equivalent the subjunctive in English. In some cases (such as this) it's more closely related to the conditional.

Cheers,
Abba


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## 1plato

Hehehe, no, no marriage-issue involved, just a foreign contact who is reneging on a (friendly) earlier agreement, one which I am prepared to let ride, so diplomacy seems called for.

Agreed, surplusage, but applies to 'rather' rather than 'prefer' I think. Thoughts? Unless one were to be in your happy example of buying a Ferrari. Thnks for the heads up, tho'. 

Thks re subjunctive. I think ABBA's expl. re subj tense solves the problem. Don't you?


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## 1plato

Oh dear, I don't think I have the hang of this yet. Seems I posted SR's reply to your ? But re yours, thnks very much. Nun ist alles in ordnung. Danke! Conditional seems the way to go, also in French. I think I bring the Latin aspect into modern languages too glibly.


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## 1plato

Ho SR, please revert to answer to ABBA below.


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## bearded

> ABBA Stanza:
> Wenn Sie es lieber vorziehen würden


On the same 'diplomatic' line, I would say (using conditional/KonjunktivII of 'sollen'): _Sollten Sie es vorziehen / sollten Sie lieber...._ 
Example:  Sollten Sie es vorziehen, dass wir nicht ins Kino gehen,....


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## Schlabberlatz

I think "Wenn Sie es _lieber_ vorziehen würden" is bad style. The "lieber" is redundant. "Wenn Sie es vorziehen würden" would be a good choice, though. "Wenn Sie es vorziehen" is also possible, and when you add "würden" to it, you make it more diplomatical.


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## 1plato

Schlabberlatz said:


> I think "Wenn Sie es _lieber_ vorziehen würden" is bad style. The "lieber" is redundant. "Wenn Sie es vorziehen würden" would be a good choice, though. "Wenn Sie es vorziehen" is also possible, and when you add "würden" to it, you make it more diplomatical.



Thnks!


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## perpend

1plato said:


> How does one diplomatically put:  'If you would rather prefer (that...)' ?  Is this use of the subjunctive tense?



I've been following this thread, but am still confused, so I'm going to start "up above" (with the OP).

1plato, Does your "rather" hear modify "prefer"? Maybe what's intended is "Wenn Sie besonders vorziehen würden, dass ...".

I think I'm missing something. I just have to say that the English version isn't very typical in American English, thus my asking.

EDIT: I think I'm overanalyzing, but I'll leave my post, since I think that there must be a way to say it in German without "tautological-ness".


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## 1plato

Thnks perpend, I appreciate your persistence. I'm afraid it's a typical British idiosyncratic mannerism, possibly untranslatable. In speaking tone one would append to _rather _a longer emphasis than any other word in the sentence. It would be _r-a-t-h-e-r, _with a pause before 'prefe'r, to indicate even an uncertainty in the speaker as to the rest...indicative of the speaker being sensitive to the possible earlier expression of the receiver of those words having made a preference that the speaker now acknowledges may not *really* have been _that_ speaker's wishes but may have been made on the assumption that it was the preference of second speaker, i.e. sufficient have the second speaker say, in effect (but not say directly): "You have suggested us doing X, but are you really only saying so because you think that I want to do X? Would you prefer to do Z?" I do hope I have not muddled everything.


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## perpend

That's helpful. It sounds like trying to politely give someone an out.

To me, "rather" sounds more to me like a "doch" or a "trotzdem" in German! And, I think the word is important to the meaning of what you want to say, so I don't see any tautology.


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## ABBA Stanza

Schlabberlatz said:


> I think "Wenn Sie es _lieber_ vorziehen würden" is bad style. The "lieber" is redundant.


Maybe ... or maybe not. 

For example, on the web one can find many examples like

_"Kenne genug Leute die fast 30 sind und sowas tausend mal *lieber vorziehen* würden, als die von manchen hier vorgeschlagenen Titel"_.

I think the point is that "vorziehen" can also mean (Duden, Bedeutung 5c)

"jemanden, etwas wählen, sich aussuchen; sich für jemanden, etwas entscheiden".

So, by sustitution, _"Wenn Sie es lieber vorziehen würden, dass ..."_ would be equivalent to

_"Wenn Sie sich lieber dafür entscheiden würden, dass ..."_,

which no longer sounds tautological at all.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the use of "prefer" in constructions involving "rather prefer" works analogously to "vorziehen" here, and should be interpreted as "to give preference to" (or, somewhat more loosely, "to choose"), rather than as "to like more".

Cheers
Abba


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## Schimmelreiter

The tautology stems from the prefix _vor-_, which is perceived as comparative. Together with the comparative _lieber (gern - lieber - am liebsten)_, this makes two comparatives, which is one too many, similarly to _​*mehr lieber.


_Cf. the deverbal adjective _vorzüglich_: _*vorzüglicher._


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## ABBA Stanza

Schimmelreiter said:


> The tautology stems from the prefix _vor-_, which is perceived as comparative. Together with the comparative _lieber (gern - lieber - am liebsten)_, this makes two comparatives, which is one too many, similarly to _​*mehr lieber.
> _




Sorry, SR, but you've completely lost me there! Firstly, there are a lot of verbs with the prefix "vor-" that have nothing to do with comparisons. Secondly, the use of "vorziehen" I was talking about (see Duden definition 5c again) had more to do with a choice than a comparison. Of course, the same Duden entry also contains definitions (5a, 5b) where "vorziehen" means "lieber mögen". In contexts where this meaning is intended, I would therefore agree with you that an additional (explicit) "lieber" would be tautological.

Cheers
Abba


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## Schimmelreiter

5c doesn't exist as a separate meaning. Dictionaries tend to present meanings in a systematic fashion although they are all derived from the same basic, etymological meaning. The basic meaning of _vor-ziehen _reflects a hierarchy of desirability, whereby you *pull* something _*ahead*_ _​of s__omething else (etwas vor eine andere Sache ziehen > etwas einer anderen Sache vor-ziehen_; cf. _pre-fer [prae-ferre] something to something)_, so the *more*_ desirable is *ahead *of the *less* desirable_, which makes _vorziehen _inherently comparative. Hence, you can't _mehr/lieber vorziehen _anything.

I've already pointed out that the above is also reflected in the incomparability of the deverbal adjective _vorzüglich (vorziehen > vorzüglich)_: You can't say of anything that it's _*vorzüglicher _​than something else.


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## ABBA Stanza

Schimmelreiter said:


> 5c doesn't exist as a separate meaning. ... The basic meaning of _vor-ziehen _reflects a hierarchy of desirability, whereby you *pull* something _*ahead*_ _​of s__omething else ..._


I understand and agree with your metaphor.

However, although "vorziehen" is not the usual translation for "to choose", one could express the English sentence "He chose a salad" in German as

_Er zog einen Salat vor._

I think the confusion here has arisen because many people automatically assume that if someone "pulls" A "ahead" of B (to use your metaphor), then they must like A more than B. But I'm not sure this is true. For example, it may be that other factors were behind the decision:

_Er zog einen Salat vor. Er hätte *lieber* eine Currywurst mit Pommes *vorgezogen*, musste aber an die Kalorien denken._

Maybe I'm blind, but in such cases, I still don't see the tautology. For me, the "lieber" is referring here to a personal preference (liking), whereas "vorziehen" is referring to what he actually gave preference to (i.e., chose), in comparison to the other items on the menu.

Cheers
Abba


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## Schimmelreiter

ABBA Stanza said:


> However, although "vorziehen" is not the usual translation for "to choose", one could express the English sentence "He chose a salad" in German as
> 
> _Er zog einen Salat vor._


I, for one, disagree completely. We should wait for others to comment, but when I hear _Er zog einen Salat vor_, I immediately ask, myself at least, _Welchem Gericht hat er den Salat vorgezogen?


_PS
Context usually makes that question unnecessary:

_Es gab Wiener Schnitzel und Pasta. Er (aber) zog einen Salat vor._


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## kolkrabe

> However, although "vorziehen" is not the usual translation for "to  choose", one could express the English sentence "He chose a salad" in  German as
> 
> _Er zog einen Salat vor._
> 
> I think the confusion here has arisen because many people automatically  assume that if someone "pulls" A "ahead" of B (to use your metaphor),  then they must like A more than B. But I'm not sure this is true. For example, it may be that other factors were behind the decision:
> 
> _Er zog einen Salat vor. Er hätte *lieber* eine Currywurst mit Pommes *vorgezogen*, musste aber an die Kalorien denken._



I agree with Schimmelreiter..."He chose a salad" would make sense if there was some information included about the alternative. Like: "He could have had the steak, but he thought of the calories and chose a salad". ->"Er hätte das Steak nehmen können, dachte aber an die Kalorien und zog den Salat vor." And even then, I would probably say: "...dachte aber an die Kalorien und entschied sich für den Salat".
BTW, "vorziehen" seems quite old fashioned to me. Or at least very formal.

As for your second example, this would kind of translate to: "He preferred the salad. He would have preferred to prefer a Currywurst with french fries".
That said, I wouldn't except the combination of "lieber" and "vorziehen", but, as mentioned above by @Schlabberlatz, it's bad style.

Which leads to the original question. IMHO "rather" would not have to be translated literally (either "lieber" or "doch"), but more seen as emphasis to underline that it is all about the recipient's choice. While "lieber" is a common paraphrase of "vorziehen" - as in "würden Sie lieber" or "wäre es Ihnen lieber, wenn...".
Personally, I would stick to something like that, too.


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## Schlabberlatz

Schimmelreiter’s explanation looks reasonable to me.





> ABBA Stanza:
> _Er hätte *lieber* eine Currywurst mit Pommes *vorgezogen*_


I’d say this is unidiomatic, too. In my opinion, one would say "genommen" instead of "vorgezogen" in this context. Anyway, why worry about this? There are so many idioms for which one cannot find a good word-by-word translation. If one cannot find one for "rather prefer", so what?


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## ABBA Stanza

Schlabberlatz said:


> Schimmelreiter’s explanation looks reasonable to me.I’d say this is unidiomatic, too. In my opinion, one would say "genommen" instead of "vorgezogen" in this context. Anyway, why worry about this? There are so many idioms for which one cannot find a good word-by-word translation. If one cannot find one for "rather prefer", so what?


Actually, I still believe "lieber vorziehen" is the direct translation for "rather prefer", even though I value the opinions of the regulars on this forum very highly. But no, I'm not worried about it, so if I'm the only one here with this opinion, then so be it. I certainly don't want to pursue the matter to the extent that I'm just flogging a dead horse. 

There are a couple of reasons why I still feel this way. Firstly, you're all saying that "lieber vorziehen" sounds tautological, but so does "rather prefer" (indeed, I can't remember ever having used the latter before this thread came up). So "lieber vorziehen" is faithfully translating the redundancy inherent in the original.

The second reason for being skeptical is the power of numbers. Have you tried looking up "lieber vorziehen" on Google? You'll get a lot of hits! So, yes, we can all denounce it here as being unidiomatic or unnecessary, but this doesn't alter the fact that it seems to be used quite a bit! 

However, I don't want to go on and on about this, so I'll probably quit posting on this topic from now on and leave you all in peace! 

All the best and see you on another thread,
Abba


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## Schlabberlatz

> So "lieber vorziehen" is faithfully translating the redundancy inherent in the original.


Yes, if you look at it from that angle – translating bad English style as bad German style – "lieber vorziehen" is a good option


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## manfy

When it comes to style, nothing's really written in stone --- except, of course, for all those countless 'better writing in 10 minutes'-style guides that oversimplify and giftwrap 1000 years of language evolution into a concise and low-cost paperback format  

I can think of a good reason to use "rather prefer" over "prefer":
Sales talk with a client:
The straightforward but somewhat blunt "if you prefer" might make the buyer feel pressured into making an immediate yes/no decision (with an outcome that I might not like). The simple addition of 'rather' takes the edge off that demanding and pushy tone of the straightforward style.
The very same scenario I can imagine with the German equivalent.

Tautological expressions do have a purpose and a well-deserved place in every language (although, I admit, more so in spoken language than in written one).

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After (finally) reading the whole thread I can say: These are all good arguments! And yes, generally we tend to prefer the use of particles in German instead of obvious tautologies.
And yet, it would not cause me any serious heartache to use "und wenn Sie es lieber vorziehen würden".

or maybe I'd go towards "und wenn Sie es doch eher vorziehen würden". ('eher' is here a direct synonym to 'lieber', so the tautology remains ... it's just less obvious  )
or possibly "und wenn Sie doch eher in Richtung X tendieren, kann ich ..." This avoids the pitfall of pushing the buyer into making a mental pre-selection (assuming you don't want that)

What it comes down to is what the other party feels sub-consciously when he/she receives the written or preferrably spoken message. It's a bit of a psychological mind game.


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## Schimmelreiter

manfy said:


> maybe I'd go towards "und wenn Sie es doch eher vorziehen würden". ('eher' is here a direct synonym to 'lieber', so the tautology remains ... it's just less obvious  )


No, that's not a synonym of _lieber_, neither is it a tautology:_

Ich ziehe eher den Salat vor. _ ≠ _Ich ziehe lieber den Salat vor. _

_Ich ziehe eher den Salat vor_ means _I tend towards preferring the salad._


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