# hungry (accusative)



## Anne58

Hello,

I want to make sure I am creating the mansoob properly : 
The child is not hungry.
الطفل ليس جوعاناً

شكراً


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## rayloom

Hi Anne.
الطفل ليس جائعا

جوعان is a diptote, thus it doesn't get the tanwin at the end, only a -a to indicate that it's in the accusative.
الطفل ليس جوعانَ

While جائعا is a triptote, thus it receive the tanwin, and gets the alif associated with the fatHa tanwin.


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## paieye

I am struggling with the spelling of the Arabic word for hungry.  What is the 3rd letter ?


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## Muwahid

paieye said:


> I am struggling with the spelling of the Arabic word for hungry.  What is the 3rd letter ?



For جائع the third letter is a hamza, seated on the yaa'.

جائع

It's a yaa, with no dots and a hamza on top. The Hamza can take three letters as "seats" Obviously the alif, like in أكبر (greater; bigger), the waaw, as in لؤلؤة (pearl), and the yaa' in this example. Of course it can be on it's own too.


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## paieye

Thank you, that is helpful, but why are the dots omitted ?  And what is the effect of the hamza


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## Paterimon

Hi Anne58,

May I first call your attention to the correct spelling of "Accusative".

The Arabic translation I would recommend is: ليسَ الطفلُ جائعًا
I hope this is helpful.


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## Muwahid

Perhaps someone can enlighten us with a more elaborate explanation but I'm assuming it's just for clarity. 

The hamza is just a glottal stop, treat it as it's own letter. جائع would be pronounced like jaa'i3 (really not the easiest thing to pronounced.) لؤلؤة Might be easier, pronounced, lu'lu'a.


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## paieye

You do not exaggerate the grinding difficulty of pronouncing this word, but thank you for your helpful explanation.


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## Paterimon

The sentence "It's a yaa, with no dots" used by a colleague of mine  is a practical, approximate explanation. May I offer an accurate definition?
The hamza "seat" (in Arabic: كرسي) is not a yaa properly speaking, but just a small
blank "hook"  resembling  the letter"dal"(د) . It is never used in this blank form, but always with dots over or under it, in order to write the following letters in _their linked positions_:
بـ, تـ,ثـ , نـ, يـ , and ئـ
I hope this is helpful.


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## paieye

Excellent, that really is just what I wanted, and has saved me a long visit to the pages of Alif Ba.


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## إسكندراني

It shouldn't be too hard to pronounce...
djaa
E (pronounce the name of this letter)
3an
Ignore the 3 if it gives you trouble


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## barkoosh

If you want to hear how جَائِعًا is pronounced, copy that word, go to http://translate.google.com/, paste it in the box, and click the loudspeaker button.
(Note regarding using this feature for non native speakers of Arabic: It's better to use full diacritics, and don't count on it 100%)


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## paieye

Yes, I use Google Translate regularly, and very good it is, but knowing how a word is pronounced does not always bring with it the ability to pronounce it !


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## barkoosh

You're totally right. Iskandarani's method is effective.


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## Paterimon

_Marhaba _Rayloom,

Are you sure that جوعان  is a diptote? I am not.
It is if its feminine form is  جوعى.
It is not if the feminine form is جوعانة
So please check the feminine form and let me know.
Thank you!


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## Paterimon

Marhaba  اسكندراني

Why the "d" in "djaa"?
The letter ج has the pure sound of a French "j", not the composed sound
of he English "j" (dj). So I would transliterate the word جائعًا
by "jaa.'i.3an"  (' represents the hamza, the glottal stop in the cockney _bo'el)_


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## rayloom

Paterimon said:


> _Marhaba _Rayloom,
> 
> Are you sure that جوعان  is a diptote? I am not.
> It is if its feminine form is  جوعى.
> It is not if the feminine form is جوعانة
> So please check the feminine form and let me know.
> Thank you!



مرحبتين
The feminine form is جوعى, not جوعانة...Classicaly speaking.
مجمع اللغة العربية في القاهرة أجاز إضافة تاء التأنيث لمثل هذه الصفات التي تنتهي بالألف والنون.


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## barkoosh

Regarding the letter ج in Arabic (بالإذن من الأخ إسكندراني), its pronunciation differs among the Arab countries. The Levantine ج is pronounced the same as the French "j"; in Gulf countries it's like the English "j"; in Egypt it's pronounced "g" as in "golf".

Confirming what rayloom said concerning جوعان, it's classically considered a diptote (جوعانُ), since its جوعى in feminine. However, the Arabic Academy agreed to allow adding ة to make such adjectives feminine. In this case, جوعان becomes a triptote (جوعانٌ) with the feminine جوعانة. This is based on common usage
عطشى- عطشانة
سكرى - سكرانة
غضبى - غضبانة
etc
and on the fact that some Arabs in the past used that construction.

So it can be said that جوعانُ-جوعى and جوعانٌ-جوعانة are both correct.


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## Paterimon

Thank you for this interesting note. We may add that in the Gulf area there is a variant form for pronouncing the  ج.
I was in Kuwait for a while and noticed that they pronounce the ج  like a  ي.  For example they would say "yabal" instead of "jabal".


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## إسكندراني

The 'proper' way to pronounce ج is 'dj', though many people do not realise this 
I find that Egyptians in particular often have trouble pronouncing Arabic letters properly. It's not very important in normal usage but it's something I hope people become more educated about. Only those with a Qur'anic education (or from certain areas) pronounce most letters 'properly'. This topic pops up on here every now and again. Feel free to find/open a thread on any letter you are interested in; there are plenty of forumers who can help


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## Abu Talha

Paterimon said:


> The sentence "It's a yaa, with no dots" used by a colleague of mine  is a practical, approximate explanation.


I don't know. It seems like a pretty accurate explanation to me. This yaa can also take the final position in a word, e.g., شاطئ . As a side note, in Urdu we borrow many Arabic words and routinely replace the hamza, if it is saakin, with its seat. It is my impression, but I am not 100% sure, that some Arab tribes did not pronounce hamza in all words. So I would be inclined to think that the orthographic convention allowed for their pronunciation too. The hamza sign and the dots, it seems, were additions to the basic script.


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## Paterimon

daee said:


> I don't know. It seems like a pretty accurate explanation to me. This yaa can also take the final position in a word, e.g., شاطئ . As a side note, in Urdu we borrow many Arabic words and routinely replace the hamza, if it is saakin, with its seat. It is my impression, but I am not 100% sure, that some Arab tribes did not pronounce hamza in all words. So I would be inclined to think that the orthographic convention allowed for their pronunciation too. The hamza sign and the dots, it seems, were additions to the basic script.


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## Paterimon

Well, my Friend, since this "seat" can serve to draw six different letters including the "yaa", I honestly don't see why
you picked up the "yaa", not anyone else of the remaining five.


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## Abu Talha

Paterimon said:


> Well, my Friend, since this "seat" can serve to draw six different letters including the "yaa", I honestly don't see why
> you picked up the "yaa", not anyone else of the remaining five.


I think it is because, as I mentioned, this seat can also occur in the final position and there it is very clearly a yaa, and also to allow for the pronunciation where the glottal stop is not pronounced. However, I have not formally studied this subject so I can not proceed any further with this line of argument.


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## Paterimon

I think we must make a clear distinction between "Standard Arabic" and countless vernaculars.
No two people disagree, irrespective of their religious affiliations, that the Qur'an played a decisive role in unifying 
the Arabic language. Moreover, as you suggested, there is consensus on the pronunciation of a "Koranic ج". 
Why not simply adopt it as the "proper" one?


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## إسكندراني

Paterimon said:


> Why not simply adopt it as the "proper" one?


It is. But 'acceptable'≠'widespread'≠'proper'.


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## Paterimon

I fully respect your choice.
May I just  point out that what you perceive as "clearly a yaa" in words like  شاطئ is but another form of an "alif"
precisely called "alif maqsoura".


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## إسكندراني

Paterimon said:


> I fully respect your choice.
> May I just  point out that what you perceive as "clearly a yaa" in words like  شاطئ is but another form of an "alif"
> precisely called "alif maqsoura".


I think you are confusing ئ for ىٰ


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## Paterimon

Please explain what you mean.


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## Muwahid

The baa, thaa, taa, are all the same letter, this is apparent. In ancient Arabic script you wouldn't see them with dots making them indistinguishable. The yaa however can be distinguished in its final position. 

So to compare it to other letters I don't agree with. The dots on the yaa distinguish between /aa/ and /y/, /ii/, /ay/ so it seems appropriate to remove the dots to again distinguish between the sound which the letter represents.


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## Paterimon

شكرًا أخانا
But please note that when I considered the the manner in which we rite  ب  ت  ث  ن  ي  ء  in their linked position
I was not comparing _the letters themselves_, but just the "sinn" (tooth) or "kursi" (seat) or "hook" on which they sit.
This comparison immediately solved the problem for the friend who first asked the question.


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## clevermizo

We had a thread on the pronunciation of ج here for those who are interested.


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## Paterimon

As we all see, there are so may variants in pronouncing the  ج that  people (especially students of Arabic) are confused.
This chaotic situation needs to be remedied. I can see one way out: Since the grammatical rules of Classical Arabic are based on the Qur'an, why not adopt the Koranic pronunciation of the  ج_ ?
_It's as simple as that. Otherwise we will lose precious time in hair-splitting considerations. 
Is there anyone who corresponds with مجمع اللغة العربية؟ . If so why not offer this suggestion to them?


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## Finland

Hello!



Paterimon said:


> As we all see, there are so may variants in pronouncing the  ج that  people (especially students of Arabic) are confused.
> This chaotic situation needs to be remedied. I can see one way out: Since the grammatical rules of Classical Arabic are based on the Qur'an, why not adopt the Koranic pronunciation of the  ج_ ?
> _It's as simple as that. Otherwise we will lose precious time in hair-splitting considerations.
> Is there anyone who corresponds with مجمع اللغة العربية؟ . If so why not offer this suggestion to them?



I don't get it -- why should it be remedied? For example the word "fast" in English is pronounced /fa:st/ by some and /fæ:st/ by others; I don't think that situation needs to be remedied either. It's just a question of language variants, simple as that!

S


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## Paterimon

We already have this variation in pronouncing some _vowels _and don't perceive it as a major problem,
because the mispronounced (or differently pronounced) vowel remains immediately recognizable*. Not so for the ج.
A combined sound (dj) represents two different letters. Besides (dj) is totally different from the Egyptian 
"g"(as in get) or the Gulf "j" (as in yabal for jabal, mountain.)
The advantages of unifying the pronunciation of the  ج are obvious, especially for the foreign students of Arabic.
____

* Listen to a Moroccan say  المملكة المغربيّة, then have a Lebanese or a Palestinian or a Syrian say it, and compare.


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## Finland

Hello!



Paterimon said:


> We already have this variation in pronouncing some _vowels _and don't perceive it as a major problem,
> because the mispronounced (or differently pronounced) vowel remains immediately recognizable*. Not so for the ج.
> A combined sound (dj) represents two different letters. Besides (dj) is totally different from the Egyptian
> "g"(as in get) or the Gulf "j" (as in yabal for jabal, mountain.)
> The advantages of unifying the pronunciation of the  ج are obvious, especially for the foreign students of Arabic.
> ____
> 
> * Listen to a Moroccan say  المملكة المغربيّة, then have a Lebanese or a Palestinian or a Syrian say it, and compare.



I still think all this is completely natural for any language with a wide geographical distribution. The same goes for English, even with consonants: bottle /botl/ ~ /ba:dl/, schedule /šedju:l/ ~ /skedžual/ etc. In fact, the variation of ج is even easier than this, because the changes between the different dialects are often very consistent (that is, in Egyptian Arabic it is pronounced as /g/ in the overwhelming majority of words, etc.).

And anyway, I cannot think how any Arabic speaker would change an inherent feature of his mother tongue just for the sake of making things arguably easier for foreign learners ;-)

Greetings,
S (a great lover of the richness of the different varieties of Arabic and other languages)


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## Paterimon

LOL
Enjoy your pluralist approach to linguistics, my Friend!
French people have a saying: "_Vari_é_t_é_ fait la beaut_é_" (Diversity is beauty).

_I see your point of view and respect it, but this debate is about "Standard or Neo-Classical Arabic" not about the countless
vernaculars with their endless differences...the Arab world has scores of cockneys.


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## clevermizo

Moderator's note:

This thread is related to the discussion of the proper منصوب spelling of جوعان and by extension جائع. Discussions about variants of pronunciation of Arabic consonants either in Standard Arabic or in colloquial dialects are off-topic and belong in previous threads devoted to these discussions as mentioned above or in new topics as necessary. 

Regards,

clevermizo
Moderator.


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## Paterimon

Thank you, Clevermizo,  for the reminder.
I am a beginner and still  need to learn a lot about the
rules of he blog.
Next time, kindly stop us as soon as we depart from the
main topic.  وشكرًا


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## aurelien.demarest

Hi guys,

can anybody tell me please if the dual form of the sentence "_they're hungry_" is correct?

هما جَوْعان

thanks
Aurélien


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## Finland

Hello!

No, جوعان is singular. The dual is جوعانان.

HTH
S


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## aurelien.demarest

Thank you very much!


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## cherine

I would use the form جائعان .


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