# трудная трудное



## James Bates

I was wondering if there was any _audible_ difference between the feminine and neuter forms of трудный, i.e. тру́дная and тру́дное. Could a native help me out?


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## willem81

In speech this difference is very slight, nevertheless it does exist. Let's apply the rules of transcription to these two words:

трудная - [т р у́ д н а й а]

трудное - [т р у́ д н а и]

That's because the letter "е" in a non-stress position usually pronounces as "и", and an unstressed "o" - as "а".

Upd.: I believe those are the rules taught at school, however there might be some more thorough phonetic rules used by professional linguists.


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## learnerr

I usually think that there is. However, my ear may be mistaken. Or it may be different in some another variety of Russian. Or it may depend on the Moon's cycle. Well, I think something is different, but can't say what exactly.


willem81 said:


> трудная - [т р у́ д н а й а]
> 
> трудное - [т р у́ д н а и]


I heard those people who pronounce the [й] and those who don't (I personally don't). But I think both categories of people do that consistently. ;-) That is, either the [й] is present in both, or in neither.


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## willem81

I was not quite sure about the transcription of *трудное*. Perhaps it must be more precisely this way:

[ т р у́ д н а й иэ]


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## Maroseika

I think it is [*тру́днъjь]* for both трудная and трудное.

Here ъ (ер) is a reduced (weakened) unstressed sound encounterd after hard consonants and ь (ерь) - the same after soft consonants.


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## James Bates

I just came across the following, quite by accident: http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/целый

It seems це́лое and це́лая are pronounced exactly the same way: ˈʦɛləjə. It seems -ое and -ая are pronounced the same way when unstressed. Thus it would only make sense if тру́дная and тру́дное were pronounced identically too. But perhaps there are exceptions to the rule that -ое and -ая are both pronounced əjə when unstressed.


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## willem81

James Bates said:


> I just came across the following, quite by accident: http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/целый
> 
> It seems це́лое and це́лая are pronounced exactly the same way: ˈʦɛləjə. It seems -ое and -ая are pronounced the same way when unstressed. Thus it would only make sense if тру́дная and тру́дное were pronounced identically too. But perhaps there are exceptions to the rule that -ое and -ая are both pronounced əjə when unstressed.



The wiktionary article must be correct (which coincides with Maroseika's post) and so must your conclusion be. Intuitively it feels like there must be some very slight difference between them, but even if there is, it's almost negligible. So the answer is yes, they are pronounced identically.


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## palomnik

For what it's worth, foreigners learning Russian are generally taught that they are pronounced the same. I know many Russians have told me that this is not true, but personally I can't hear the difference.


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## James Bates

спосибо!


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## James Bates

Since я and е are both pronounced ə when unstressed, I guess the feminine and neuter of большой, i.e. больша́я and большо́е would be pronounced identically too (except for the а́ and о́, of course). That is, both would have ə at the end.


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## Maroseika

James Bates said:


> Since я and е are both pronounced ə when unstressed, I guess the feminine and neuter of большой, i.e. больша́я and большо́е would be pronounced identically too (except for the а́ and о́, of course). That is, both would have ə at the end.



The last sounds are really identical in these words, but due to the different stressed vowels the words sound differently enough to distinguish them unmistakedly.


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## CKM367

I am afraid трудные also sounds the same as трудная and трудное


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## Maroseika

CKM367 said:


> I am afraid трудные also sounds the same as трудная and трудное



Post-tonic ы is weakened, but nevertheless it is pronounced as mere ы. So трудные must differ from трудная and трудное.


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## James Bates

I'm guessing you guys can't tell whether your interlocutor said зна́ние or зна́ния since they sound exactly the same


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## willem81

The two distinct words sound indeed the same, but usually it becomes clear from the context whether plural or singular is being used.


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## ahvalj

We had already discussed that there is some discrepancy (regional and probably also personal) in the way different people reduce the unstressed vowels. In particular, in St. Petersburg (me included) the vowels are somewhat less reduced, both in length and quality, than in Moscow. I would say that I always make difference between final -а, -е and -и in open syllables, and in your example I pronounce something like [trudnaæ] vs. [trudnae] and [znanie] vs. [znaniæ], at least in a more or less careful speech.

Update. Here are the full paradigms:
[znanie znaniä znaniü znanie znaniem znanii znaniä znanij znaniäm znaniä znaniämi znaniäx]
[trudnyj trudnava trudnamu trudnyj trudnym trudnam trudnye trudnyx trudnym trudnye trudnymi trudnyx]
[trudnae...]
[trudnaä trudnaj trudnaj trudnuü trudnaj trudnaj...]

I use "a" instead of schwa because in Russian it has a distinct a-color, unlike, say, in French, where it is ö-colored, German, where it is e-colored (except before r), etc.


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## Yarost Slov

Very good question! I believe the deficiency is in the ability of the phonetic transcription to capture the very fine difference. I believe many native speakers would catch an attempt at intentional neutering of feminine adjectives. Tempo would also play a role. If one were to slowly pronounce the words, emphasizing the syllables, I believe the difference would be quite audible: "В одном часе любви – цел-а-я жизнь!" ...couldn't be "...цел-о-е жизнь!" When I first began to study Russian, I had difficulty hearing the difference between a soft ль and a hard л. The same with a soft нь and a hard н. The difference is, of course, more "pronounced" in that case...and would be captured in a phonetic transcription. Slowing the two "identically-sounding" words down with speech transcription software might reveal the difference in the audio wave form -- especially if the speaker is talented, such as a newsreader or a language teacher.


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## learnerr

willem81 said:


> The two distinct words sound indeed the same, but usually it becomes clear from the context whether plural or singular is being used.


What is also to note is that speakers might softly highlight the difference in pronunciation when they need to, even if in other circumstances they would reduce the vowels to the same sound. Here comes in the Moon's cycle.


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## James Bates

Thanks, everybody


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