# Vietnamese: Name structure



## dtyt2009

According to _Wikipedia_, a Vietnamese name consists of 3 elements – a 'given name', a 'middle name' and a surname.

I wonder if the concepts of 'middle name' and 'given name' in Vietnamese are exactly the same as in English? In English, the given name is the name a person is known by in everyday situation, while the middle name is an additional name for the purpose of distinguishing individuals with the same given name and surname.

Suppose I want to present the name 'Nguyễn Văn Thiệu' (assuming that 'Nguyễn' is the surname, 'Văn' is the 'middle name' and 'Thiệu' is the 'given name') according to the rule in the English language, is it right to present the name as

(A1) 'Thiệu Nguyễn' (omitting the middle name altogether as per the convention in the Anglophone), 'Thiệu V. Nguyễn' (showing the initial of the middle name only), 'Thiệu Văn Nguyễn' (showing the name in full in the English order), and 'T. V. Nguyễn' (showing the initials of all given names only)?

Or should it be

(A2) 'Văn Thiệu Nguyễn' and 'V. T. Nguyễn' (like Chinese in which every word in a name apart from the surname forms the given name; assuming that the idea 'middle name' simply means that that particular word is in the middle of the name)?

According to _Wikipedia_, in the name 'Phan Thị Kim Phúc', 'Phan' is the surname and 'Kim Phúc' is the 'given name' (it also seems to imply that 'Thị' is the 'middle name'): if I want to do the same for this name as 'Nguyễn Văn Thiệu' above, is it right to present the name as

(B1) 'Kim Phúc Phan', 'Kim Phúc T. Phan', 'Kim Phúc Thị Phan', and 'K. P. T. Phan'?

Or should it be

(B2) 'Thị Kim Phúc Phan' and 'T. K. P. Phan' (with 'Thị Kim Phúc' being one single given name and 'Phan' being the surname)?

I've also heard that sometimes 'Văn Thiệu' can be one single given name while in most cases only 'Thiệu' is the given name: is there any way to tell precisely which is the case? Also, are there any names which are definitely a 'middle name' if they appear between the surname and the 'given name'?


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## Radioh

Greetings, dtyt.
The concepts are the same as in English. I guess you want to present those names in English, right ? If so, follow your English rule. And 'Văn Thiệu' is not a single given name, only 'Thiệu'.
R.


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## dtyt2009

Thanks, Radioh!


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## dtyt2009

By the way, does the same apply to the names of the Chinese Vietnamese?


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## Radioh

Greetings again, dtyt.
Please specify what you want. Name structure of Hoa people in Vietnam is the same, 'family name' + (middle name) + 'given name'. Some of them may have 'special' family names(can be one word or two words) that when you see you will recognise that they're Hoa. (by the way, my ancestors came from Taiwan, so I'm partially a Hoa person.)
R.


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## dtyt2009

I've heard that the Chinese Vietnamese were forced to adopt Vietnamese names in the 1950s. I presume they simply converted their names in Chinese characters or French transliterations into equivalent words in Vietnamese (e. g., changing 'Siu' (Cantonese Chinese)/'Chao' (Mandarin Chinese) into 'Thiệu' and 'Kam Sook' (Cantonese Chinese)/'Chin Shu' (Mandarin Chinese) into 'Kim Phúc')?

It's common in Chinese to have two-word given names, so I wonder if a Chinese Vietnamese will have a given name like 'Văn Thiệu' (instead of just 'Thiệu') and no middle name (there is no middle name in any Chinese name)? Or do they also follow the same practice as the Vietnamese in the context of the Vietnamese language?


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## Radioh

dtyt2009 said:


> I've heard that the Chinese Vietnamese were forced to adopt Vietnamese names in the 1950s.


Well, I don't know, but I'm curious to know where you got that.



> I presume they simply converted their names in Chinese characters or French transliterations into equivalent words in Vietnamese (e. g., changing 'Siu' (Cantonese Chinese)/'Chao' (Mandarin Chinese) into 'Thiệu' and 'Kam Sook' (Cantonese Chinese)/'Chin Shu' (Mandarin Chinese) into 'Kim Phúc')?



Yes, in order to comunicate well with Vietnamese people.



> It's common in Chinese to have two-word given names, so I wonder if a Chinese Vietnamese will have a given name like





> 'Văn Thiệu' (instead of just 'Thiệu') and no middle name (there is no middle name in any Chinese name)? Or do they also follow the same practice as the Vietnamese in the context of the Vietnamese language?


No, I have never met or heard of a Hoa/Chinese person with a two-word given name.


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## dtyt2009

Cool, thanks! 

I read about the 'Vietnamisation' policy from history books and online sources; if I remember correctly, it was non-communist South Vietnam that forced the 'Hoa' to adopt Vietnamese names. I'm not entirely sure what this really means; my understanding is that the South Vietnamese government was making the 'Hoa' spell their names in Latin alphabets in the Vietnamese way (i. e. transcribing their names according to Vietnamese pronunciation).

How about a non–Chinese Vietnamese person with a Chinese name? I've recently come across a fan page of the Hong Kong actor Bobby Au Yeung set up by his Vietnamese fans on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/BobbyAuYeungVNFanpage); the title of the page contains the Vietnamese version of Bobby Au Yeung's Chinese name: 'Âu Dương Chấn Hoa' ('Âu Dương' is his surname ('Au Yeung'); 'Chấn Hoa' is the transliteration of his Chinese given name 'Tsan Wah'). I wonder if people will treat 'Hoa' as the given name, 'Chấn' as the middle name and 'Âu Dương' as the surname in the context of the Vietnamese language? Or will they treat 'Chấn Hoa' as one single given name? Sorry for being pedantic


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## Radioh

No need to sorry. I've found this on Wikipedia*


> ...29 August 1956: Decree 52 was passed which required all Vietnamese citizens regardless of their ethnic origin to adopt a Vietnamese name within six months, failing which they had to pay a heavy fine...


As for 'Âu Dương Chấn Hoa', if his given name is 'Chấn Hoa', then we treat it as Chinese people treat it - a two-word given name.
(I wonder, when talking with those who have a two-word given name, is it polite or common to address them just by one word. For example, just 'Hoa', instead of 'Chấn Hoa'. ?)
*link to Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_people
R.

Edit: Dtyt, please note that what I have told you so far you is NOT 100% accurate. It is only my observation.
R.


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## dtyt2009

Radioh said:


> I wonder, when talking with those who have a two-word given name, is it polite or common to address them just by one word. For example, just 'Hoa', instead of 'Chấn Hoa'. ?



Unlike in Vietnamese, a person is addressed in different ways according to the context in Chinese.

In formal situations (e. g., when talking to a client or when a student talks to his/her teacher), a person is addressed by his/her surname (e. g., 'Mr Âu Dương'), unless it is clear that he/she prefers to be addressed by the given name.

In non-formal situations, a person is addressed by the given name (e. g., 'Chấn Hoa') or a shortened version of the given name (e. g., 'Chấn' or 'Hoa'): this is exactly like how, in English, a person called 'Steven' may be called 'Steve' by some people. 

I don't think Mandarin Chinese–speakers do this, but Cantonese Chinese–speakers address their friends as 'Ah [one-word given name/part of the two-word given name]' if they are not addressing their friends by the full form of the given name: for a person with a two-word given name like Bobby Au Yeung ('Chấn Hoa'), apart from caliing him 'Chấn Hoa', his friends may address him as 'Ah Chấn' or 'Ah Hoa', depending on what the friends prefer; for a person with a one-word given name, that person is addressed as 'Ah [given name]' (based on my observation; it seems like a matter of grammar to me that a person with a one-word given name is often addressed as 'Ah [given name]' in informal situations). Since there is no equivalence of 'Ah' in English, a person known as 'Ah Chấn' or 'Ah Hoa' in Cantonese Chinese will have the name written as simply 'Chấn' or 'Hoa' in English.

A person named 'Chấn Hoa' will introduce himself as 'Chấn Hoa', 'Ah Chấn' or 'Ah Hoa': there isn't a fixed rule and it's ultimately a matter of personal preference. But then, even if Chấn Hoa introduced himself as 'Chấn Hoa' in the first place, his friends may start calling him 'Ah Chấn' or 'Ah Hoa' at some point after they've become closer and, I guess, for the sake of convenience.

I'm not sure about the practice in other Chinese dialects.

By the way, as English is also a language of Hong Kong (alongside Cantonese Chinese), most people in that country have an English name as well as a Chinese name and they often go by their English name for everyday purposes; so, in practice, people are more often addressed by their English name instead of their Chinese name. Similarly, Portuguese has the same status in Macao (that smaller country next to Hong Kong) as English has in Hong Kong, so many people there go by their Portuguese name for everyday purposes. I guess it is in the Cantonese Chinese–speaking region of China (i. e. the Pearl River Delta) that the above 'rules' are more relevant.

Edit: The Mandarin Chinese equivalence for 'Ah', I think, is 'Ta' (literally means 'big') and 'Hsiao' (literally means 'small'): Chấn Hoa's Mandarin Chinese–speaking friends may call him 'Ta Chấn', 'Ta Hoa', 'Hsiao Chấn' or 'Hsiao Hoa'; my personal observation is that 'Ta Hoa' and 'Hsiao Hoa' are more common. The same applies to a person with a one-word given name.

I still need to verify it but my observation suggests to me that, in Mandarin Chinese, people sometimes address another by their full name (i. e. '[suename] + [given name]') and that it is much more common for a person with a one-word given name to be addressed by the full name.

Addressing a person by the full name is also acceptable (i. e. not considered to be rude) in Cantonese Chinese, but it seems to be less common than in Mandarin Chinese.


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## Radioh

Thanks, dtyt. Very valuable pieces of information. I often hear "Ah(it is 'A' in Vietnamese) + given name" in films and from Hoa people that I know(Usually from old people when they call someone (much) younger). I assumed it was old-fashioned, but now I know I was wrong.
I never heard 'ta' but I have heard 'da', as in 'lăo da'. ('da' is Cantonese meaning 'big' ?)
R.
(Hope that our dear moderators won't punish us for being off-topic, haha. I just can't stop my curiosity)


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## dtyt2009

You're welcome. And thanks for the information about Vietnamese.

The 'ta' I mentioned is exactly the same as the 'da' you mentioned, it's just that I used the more traditional Wade–Giles romanisation system and you used the Hanyu Pinyin romanisation system (which is now the most widely-used romanisation system for Mandarin Chinese). 'Ta' means 'big' in Mandarin Chinese; the Cantonese Chinese equivalence is 'daai'.


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## Radioh

Greetings, dtyt. How are you ?


dtyt2009 said:


> (...)
> 
> The 'ta' I mentioned is exactly the same as the 'da' you mentioned, it's just that I used the more traditional Wade–Giles romanisation system and you used the Hanyu Pinyin romanisation system (which is now the most widely-used romanisation system for Mandarin Chinese).


Ah-ha. I did not know that.


> 'Ta' means 'big' in Mandarin Chinese; the Cantonese Chinese equivalence is 'daai'.


Thank you. It must be 'daai', but I see it transcribed as both 'da' and 'daai'. In Vietnamese, it's 'đại'(in case you don't know, we borrow the word from you, and it's pronounced with a long 'a', similar to your 'daai' ). 
Unlike you, we don't add 'đại' when addressing someone. Instead, we add 'cu' before a child boy's name. And in the North, people add 'cái'(meaning female). It is common to call a young girl 'cái + given name'
R.


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## Ihsiin

Hello everybody,

I understand that Vietnamese given names are often single words. I would like to know if it's also common to find Vietnamese names composed of two words, as in Chinese. If so, how common is this, and does it pertain to a particular region/era/group of people?

Thanks.


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## newname

^Hi,  Regardless of the conversations above, Vietnamese given names are only single words. My sister's name, for example, has four words: Van Thi Duy Thanh. We (my family and friends and neiboughers and everyone else) almost always call her 'Thanh'. Rarely do we call her 'Duy Thanh'. If we do, it's only because there's another person named 'Thanh'. And 'Duy Thanh' is a convenient way to identify her.  Hope this helps.  P.S  If someone asks you your name and you answer, 'Duy Thanh', you are most certainly called 'Thanh'. I don't think many Vietnamese would have the time to add 'Duy' when calling your name later.


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## AmaryllisBunny

Ihsiin said:


> I understand that Vietnamese given names are often single words. I would like to know if it's also common to find Vietnamese names composed of two words, as in Chinese. If so, how common is this, and does it pertain to a particular region/era/group of people?


Because my family was "raised" Buddhist, I have a given name (two words) from my parents and a given name from temple (although this is probably not very common). My siblings were also given a nickname because their given names (both) were/are long.

Everyone on my mother's side has a composed "two-word" name, but that's because the first word is the same for all of them (they are referred to by the second word).


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## Ihsiin

Thank you all.
So there _are_ Vietnames given names which are composed of two words, but these are almost always shortened to the second word.
Thanks again.


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## Radioh

Well, I have never seen or heard a two-word Vietnamese given name, so I'm not sure if they are usually shortened to the second word is true or not. But if I ever see or hear one, I would consider the person who has that name to be not "100% Vietnamese".
R.


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## bubbyx

Hi 
I'm vietnamese and I disagree with what the other posters are saying. It's not true that Vietnamese dont have two words name. Just because Vietnamese like to shorten names doesn't mean Vietnamese only have one name. Most parents choose two words name for their children. Just google best names for babies in Vietnamese and you will see they give two words name, not individual name with a given name! However in the olden time some people used to have one word given name and a middle name to indicate gender, van for men and thi for women. Some people just have a surname and a one word given name like Nguyen Du, but now this is very rare. 
At school teachers call their students by two names not one names. Only in informal setting do the names get shortened to one word. 
Chinese in Vietnam just use their Chinese names pronounced in the Vietnamese way, like Tap Can Binh for Xi Jinping or Ly Quang Dieu for Lee Kwan Yew. They did not have to change anything so it's not true that Vietnam forced them to adopt vietnamese names. Also isn't ironic since Vietnamese names are made using Chinese words anyway?


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