# Lord & Master



## ThomasK

Those terms are quite common and seem to have a similar meaning. How do you translate them in your language - or can't you really? And what meanings do they have ? (You can be quite brief !)

*Master*
1a. Originallly a teacher, so I learn: Lat. _magister_ (of course !)
1b. Now the 'boss' (others are subject to him): employer or owner --- of a dog, of slaves 
1c Very good at ... (He is a master of disguise)
> 1d Polite address formula: 'mister'

*Lord *
2a. Once a 'bread-guard' (_hlafweard_, lit. "one who guards the loaves) 
2b. An aristocratic title.
2c. Someone who rules over... 
2d. Reference to God (gods ?) 
2e. Address formula: 'My Lord, ..."

Dutch: 
*1. Meester: *
a (regional), 
b (not too common now), 
c (!!), 
d (standard for barristers only; [regional] for teachers)

*2. Heer: *
a (Old High German, comp. of _her_, 'old, dignified, important', parallel/ calque of Lat. _senior_)
b Only historical, I think
c Not very common; _heerser_ [commander/ dominator/...] will be more common here. 
d Still common
e Yes, in addresses: _de heer_ X [equivalent of Mr], _meneer_ [old: mijnheer, my Lord],


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## Rallino

Turkish:
*1. Usta:
*a. A master and teacher of a profession such as: Plumbering, blacksmithing, lumberjacking, construction, swordsmanship, repairing ...
b. Not that I know of, we use the word "_sahip_" = owner.
c. Very good at something.
d. Some young people call each other "Usta", to mean: dude, bro or some such thing.
>>Addressing formulae are: _Usta_ or_ Ustam

_*2. **Efendi:*
a. Lord, as in owner of something, might sometimes be equal to "sahip". This word is used in the _Master_-slave context. In modern language, this word is so rarely used, 2 notable examples are: _Beyefendi_ (Mister-Lord = sir) and _Hanımefendi _(Lady-lord = Miss). _Lord of the Rings_ was translated: _Yüzüklerin Efendisi._
b. For a land lord, we use the word "sahip". Also an owner of a dog is: Köpek sahibi.
c. Not very common.
d. I'm not sure if this is used for "God" in the Turkish Bible or Quran. But it wouldn't surprise me.
e. In addition to English and Dutch, when we couldn't understand something the other person has just said, and we want him to repeat, we say: Efendim?  (lit. My lord? / My sir?)
>> Addressing formulae are: _Efendim_ (My lord/sir) or _Efendimiz_ (Our lord/sir)


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Rallino: 
- so an _*usta*_ is more like teacher, not a boss ? But it is used as an address formula: doesn't that imply some kind of submission/ power relation? 
- _*effendi*_ is old then, except in address formula and when asking for repetition?


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, Rallino:
> --> - so an _*usta*_ is more like teacher, not a boss ? But it is used as an address formula: doesn't that imply some kind of submission/ power relation?
> -->  - _*effendi*_ _efendi_ is old then, except in address formula and when asking for repetition?



--> If you're the apprentice of a repairman, he naturally happens to be your boss, so in that respect: An _usta _MAY be a boss. But it doesn't sound very professional. You wouldn't call your boss "Usta", in a company for example.

--> Yes, it is a little archaic.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, R, sorry for insisting. The only reason for that is that straightforward translations are not that common - and I am trying to investigate how those terms should be read/ understood precisely. But here it is clear: _usta_ does not... sound 'bossy'. It is more like a compliment, I gather.


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, R, sorry for insisting. The only reason for that is that straightforward translations are not that common - and I am trying to investigate how those terms should be read/ understood precisely. But here it is clear: usta does not...  sound 'bossy'. It is more like a compliment, I gather.



Exactly, it's totally positive.


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## Tjahzi

I've interpreted as that you are asking for cognates of _master_ that serve as the above meanings. As such, here is my list for *Swedish*:

*Mästare*
1a. No such usage.
1b. No such usage.
1c. Yes. However, this is more commonly expressed through "very good at" since _mästare_ normally means _champion_.
> 1d. No such usage.

*Her-/Här-*
2a. _Herre_ could work, but it sounds awfully archaic.
2b. _Herr -_ mister (due to being a title, it's archaic by nature).
2c. _Härskare_, from the verb _härska_ - to reign.
2d. _Herren_ - Herr(e)+definite suffix. _The Lord._
2e. This looks similar to 2a. and 2b. to me, and again, it would sound awfully archaic.

To sum up, I can't think of any natural context in which I would use any of the above (_mästare _excluded). Obviously this is all partly due to the fact that Swedish has come a long way towards the total abolition of titles.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
*-Lord:* «Κύριος» ('cirios _masculine noun_); from the same classical noun «κύριος» ('kŭrīŏs _masculine noun_), from «κῦρος» ('kūrŏs _neuter noun_)-->_supreme power, authority_, PIE base *keu-, _to swell, inflate_, cognate with Sanskr. _Śūra_ (hero), Welsh _Cawr_ (giant). In the modern language «κύριος» is the title of respect prefixed to a man's name or position, or in Theology, the Lord (God).

*-Master:*
a/ «Δεσπότης» (ðes'potis _masculine noun_); from the same classical noun «δεσπότης» (dĕ'spŏtēs _masculine noun_)-->_despot, absolute ruler, master_. Compound formed by the joining together of the neuter noun «δέμας» ('dĕmās)-->_bodily frame_ or the masculine noun «δόμος» ('dŏmŏs)-->_house, abode_, both from PIE base *dem(h2)-, _to build_ + «πόσις» ('pŏsīs _masculine noun_) or «πόσσις» ('pŏssīs _masculine noun_)-->_master, lord, husband_ from PIE base *poti-, _powerful, lord_.
b/ «Μαΐστωρ» (ma'istor _masculine noun_); from the Latin _magister_. «Μαΐστωρ» is the Byzantine/medieval _master_, from which the modern «μάστορας» ('mastoras _masculine noun_) derives. With «μάστορας» nowadays we mean "artisan, craftsman". 
c/ «Αφέντης» (a'fendis _masculine noun_); from the Byzantine/medieval «ἀφθέντης» (aph'thentis _masculine noun_) ultimately from the classical «αὐθέντης» (au'tʰĕntēs _masculine noun_)-->_perpetrator, author_. Compound formed by joining together the combining form of the pronoun «αὐτο-» (autŏ-)-->_self, myself_ + masculine noun «ἕντης» ('hĕntēs)-->_accomplice_, PIE base *senh₁-, _to effect, accomplice_. «Αφέντης» has also produced «αφεντικό» (afendi'ko _neuter noun_) in the modern language, _boss, squire_.

[c] is a voiceless palatal plosive
[ð] is a voiced dental non-sibilant fricative


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## ThomasK

@Tjahzi: interesting cultural note! But then: how do you address a man? With _Herr(en)_ ?


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## Tjahzi

Well, if the name is unknown, I'd use _du._


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## ThomasK

@Tjahzi: interesting cultural note! But then: how do you write/ say 'Mr Tjahzi'? How do you say 'Ladies and gentlemen' ? 

In Dutch that would be "Dames en heren"... 



apmoy70 said:


> In Greek:
> *-Lord:* «Κύριος»from «κῦρος» ('kūrŏs _neuter noun_)-->_supreme power, authority_, .... In the modern language «κύριος» is the title of respect prefixed to a man's name or position, or in Theology, the Lord (God).
> 
> *-Master:*
> a/ «*Δεσπότης*» (ðes'potis _masculine noun_); from the same classical noun «δεσπότης» (dĕ'spŏtēs _masculine noun_)-->_despot, absolute ruler, master_. b/ «*Μαΐστωρ*» (ma'istor _masculine noun_); from the Latin _magister_. «. With «μάστορας» nowadays we mean "artisan, craftsman".
> c/ «*Αφέντης*» from the classical «αὐθέντης» (au'tʰĕntēs _masculine noun_)-->_perpetrator, author_. «Αφέντης» has also produced «αφεντικό» (afendi'ko _neuter noun_) in the modern language, _boss, squire_.


 
@Apmoy: equally interesting, again (as usual ! ;-))
But then 
- _ðes'potis_ is mainly/ only negative then, isn't it ? 
- _a'fendis_ is very bossy then, I gather; could effendi in Turkish have the same origin?


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> [...]
> - _a'fendis_ is very bossy then, I gather; could effendi *efendi* _(single 'f' !  )_ in Turkish have the same origin?



Yes, indeed, I've just checked Nişanyan Etym. Dict.: Efendi comes from authéntēs αυθέντης.


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## ThomasK

Please forgive me, Rallino! The reason is that I have seen the word with 'Effendi', but I cannot imagine in what context... I have tried to find it, but it has not worked. 

While checking on that at Wikipedia, however, I came across this information as well: 


> follows the personal name, when it is used, and is generally given to members of the learned professions and to government officials who have high ranks


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## Rallino

Ah, I didn't know about that. Thanks, I've learnt something.


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## Montesacro

*Master*
1a. Originallly a teacher, so I learn: Lat. _magister_ (of course !)
1b. Now the 'boss' (others are subject to him): employer or owner --- of a dog, of slaves 
1c Very good at ... (He is a master of disguise)
> 1d Polite address formula: 'mister'

*Lord *
2a. Once a 'bread-guard' (_hlafweard_, lit. "one who guards the loaves) 
2b. An aristocratic title.
2c. Someone who rules over... 
2d. Reference to God (gods ?) 
2e. Address formula: 'My Lord, ..."

Italian: 
*1. Maestro: *
a teacher, yes
b employer no, we usually say *capo*, owner (of a dog, of slaves) no, we say *padrone*
c very good at... yes 
d Polite address formula: 'mister' no, we say *signore*

*2. Signore: *
a (Once a 'bread-guard' (_hlafweard_, lit. "one who guards the loaves) no
b An aristocratic title yes
c Someone who rules over...yes
d Reference to God yes
e Address formula: 'My Lord, ..." yes (see point 1d). Very archaic if used with "my".


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## ThomasK

Great information! Does *'padrone'* refer to 'padre', _father_, do you think? I guess so, but... And '*capo'*: chief/ chef, head, I guess. Correct ?


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> - _ðes'potis_ is mainly/ only negative then, isn't it ?


Not in Greek. «Δεσπότης» could be a cruel and authoritative dictator but also - after Byzantine influence - the local Bishop (Orthodox Church).


ThomasK said:


> - _a'fendis_ is very bossy then, I gather; could effendi in Turkish have the same origin?


Yes, that is true; «αὐθέντης/αφέντης» produces the feminine noun «αὐθεντία» (autʰĕn'tīă, afθen'dia in modern pronunciation)--> _authority_ and the English _authentic, authenticity_ etc


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## Tjahzi

Well, practically, there is no such thing as _Mr. Tjahzi _(and that's not only due to the fact that Tjahzi is not a real name). Titles are frowned upon. Period. (When a celebrity enters a talk show or the stage, he or she is presented with his/her full name (that is first and surname)).

If someone would still use _Herr/Fru_ (which used to be the female equivalent), most people would find it very odd/old fashioned. 

That said, the expression _Ladies and gentlemen_ is translated to _Damer och herrar_. However, those are just to be considered slightly more formal versions of the standard words for _men _and _women _(_män _and_kvinnor)_. That is, they translate to "person of respective sex" and appear in compounds such as _damfrisör_ (ladies' hairdresser), _herrtoalett _(men's bathroom) and _damfotboll_ (women's football). (Of course these examples have their respective equivalents of the opposite sex as well.)


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## ThomasK

Very interesting, but quite new to me. Thanks.


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## Montesacro

ThomasK said:


> Great information! Does *'padrone'* refer to 'padre', _father_, do you think? I guess so, but...



Yes, _padrone_ and _padre_ are etymologically related.

_Padrone_ comes from Latin _patronus_, which in turn comes from _pater_.



ThomasK said:


> And '*capo'*: chief/ chef, head, I guess. Correct ?



Yes, correct.
_Capo_ also means "head" (but we usually say _testa_).


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## ThomasK

Ah si, capisco (_con capo, scusi, con testa ???_). Grazie !

_[I suppose not: capere will have to do with to grasp, lit. and fig. - and we can't use our head for the lit. grasping]_


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## Montesacro

ThomasK said:


> Ah si, capisco (_con capo, scusi, con testa ???_). Grazie !
> 
> _[I suppose not: capere will have to do with to grasp, lit. and fig. - and we can't use our head for the lit. grasping]_



I'm sorry, Thomas, you've lost me  

Maybe you were musing over a possible etymological relation between _caput/capo_ and _capere/capire_?


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## ThomasK

Yes, but there is not a strong relation with the topic, except via _chef/ chief/ capo_. Forget about that question so that we don't get off-thread. 

Where are our Slavic friends, telling us about 'Gospodi', etc.? ;-)


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*.

mestari
1) maailmanmestari = world champion
2) mestarivaras = master thief
3) mestarillinen ... = masterous ... (ie. very good)

The first five Google hits for _mestarillinen_:

_B. E. on mestarillinen ja intohimoinen peluri. _(player)
_T. S. on mestarillinen taktikko. _(tactician)
_H. Mäkelän "Kivi" on mestarillinen kuvaus Aleksis Kiven viimeisistä ajoista. _(description)
_Ja sellaisena se on mestarillinen taidonnäyte. _(demonstration of skill)
_Da Vinci -koodi on mestarillinen trilleri. _(thriller)


isäntä
1) (_of a house, of a slave, of a dog_) masteri
2) (_of a farmhouse_) farmer
3) (_of an inn_) innkeeper
4) (_of a feast_) host (_Illan isäntänä... _Tonight's host...)

herra
1) mister (_Old fashioned title, as in Swedish. That's why some people use it humoristically or even in the opposite meaning - to show contempt._)
2) Herra - Lord (_biblical_)
3) _hyvät naiset ja ~t_ - ladies and gentlemen
4) Taru sormusten herrasta. The Lord of the Rings.

maisteri
1) master (_advanced level degree in Finnish universities_)

lordi
1) A stereotypical royal old British person who lives in his manor in the countryside, rides all day, and in the evening drinks cognac by a fireplace.


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## ThomasK

Great! 

Do I recognize Latin and Germanic roots in _mestar/maisteri_ and _herra_? Could _isäntä_ be something like an owner? And how do you address a man formally? How do you write 'Mr' ?


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## Maroseika

Russian:

Master (мастер - loaned from Polish < German)
1a. - мастер (foreman, master, expert)
1b. Now the 'boss' (others are subject to him): employer or owner: no
1c Very good at: yes (мастер своего дела - the one knowing his trade) 
1d Polite address formula: no

Lord (господин) 
2a. господин - cognate of Lat. hospitis (master) < *hostipotis (owner of the shelter) 
2b. An aristocratic title: only as addressing: господин N (Mr. N)
2c. Someone who rules over: господин положения - master of the situation, господствовать - to prevail
2d. Reference to God: Господь
2e. Address formula: 'My Lord, ...": Господи (My Lord)


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## ThomasK

How interesting! But doesn't 'Gospodis' mean 'Mr' as well? (I think people referred to me on the train once in Croatia.)


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## Tjahzi

In BCS, it does.


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> How interesting! But doesn't 'Gospodis' mean 'Mr' as well? (I think people referred to me on the train once in Croatia.)


Not _Gospodis _precisely, but господин (gospodin). This is standard Russian addressing nowadays (also госпожа - Gospozha - for a woman).


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## ThomasK

I find the link between 'bread-guard' and host/ Gospodin interesting: of course possession of bread can be some kind of weapon, an instrument of power, but on the other hand it can also be a source of generosity. The ambiguity of power as such ('bossy' or a source of protection)?


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Great!
> 
> Do I recognize Latin and Germanic roots in _mestar/maisteri_ and _herra_? Could _isäntä_ be something like an owner? And how do you address a man formally? How do you write 'Mr' ?



Roots: Yes, you're correct.

Isäntä: The word is originally based on _isä_, father. I'd say it rather refers to being a "master"/supervisor/head person.

Formal addressing procedure: Indeed formally, we use _herra_ + surname. It can be abbreviated as _hra_. But just like the Swedes, we prefer using the entire name, in interviews etc. with an added job title.

_Toimitusjohtaja Jukka Niemi, mitä mieltä olette tästä?
_Managing director Jukka Niemi, what do you think about this?


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> I find the link between 'bread-guard' and host/ Gospodin interesting: of course possession of bread can be some kind of weapon, an instrument of power, but on the other hand it can also be a source of generosity. The ambiguity of power as such ('bossy' or a source of protection)?



I don't see any connection here. Господин and *hostipotis have deverged maybe in the Proto-Slavic epoch.


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## ThomasK

@Sakvaka: 
- _isänta_: like _padrone_ then... 
- you don't use the address formula very often then (_herra_), do you? Have you adopted Swedish (Skandinavian) culture to some extent ? 

@M: I may have jumped to conclusions. No link between _hospis_ and _hostipotis_? I think I see my mistake: _hosti_- is not _hospi_. But then I have just found this : 


> Entscheidend aber ist der Bedeutungsinhalt des russ. gospodj (Vasmer 1953:299 = *lat. hospes 'Gastfreund'* * < *hostipotis*, von potis 'vermogend, machtig'²), *...*


which combines hospitality* and power². Quite amazing...


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> @Sakvaka:
> - _isänta_: like _padrone_ then...
> - you don't use the address formula very often then (_herra_), do you? Have you adopted Swedish (Skandinavian) culture to some extent?



I am not going to
answer this question, for I find it badly formulated. Finland and the Scandinavian countries form an entity, the Nordic countries. Only our language, the Eastern influence (1809-1917) and what happened during the latest World War separate us from them. Sweden prides herself aloud on being the most egalitarian/well-being/... country in the world (and it is) - but Finland and other Nordic countries make a crucial part of the entire development towards social welfare states. This is why you will find all of them surprisingly similar. 

There's a bigger cultural border between Finland and Russia than between Finland and Sweden. (_OK, this one is merely my opinion._)


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## ThomasK

_I sincerely apologize for phrasing my question so bluntly! I did not mean to. Around here we are never quite sure of what 'Scandinavia' means, whether the 'Nordic' countries share some 'underlying culture', and think we know Sweden (and Denmark) a little better, etc., which results to unfair generalisations of all kinds... I apologize!_

Let's say you share a fairly egalitarian culture, which is reflected by (the absence of formal) address formulas.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> _I sincerely apologize for phrasing my question so bluntly! I did not mean to. Around here we are never quite sure of what 'Scandinavia' means, whether the 'Nordic' countries share some 'underlying culture', and think we know Sweden (and Denmark) a little better, etc., which results to unfair generalisations of all kinds... I apologize!_
> 
> Let's say you share a fairly egalitarian culture, which is reflected by (the absence of formal) address formulas.



Thank you, and no problem! Sometimes I find it slightly amusing to discover that people think of Finland as a dictatorship, the land of polar bears and igloos etc. Of course your image wasn't this exaggerated, but so it seems that people are never too old to get to know the actual world better!


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## ThomasK

_At my age I'd put it differently ;-) - and say that forums like these - with contributors trying to be open-minded but showing understanding in case someone's mind is not yet open enough - allow one to broaden one's mind. Reflectons on language - and fairly basic "relational" words like 'lord' and 'master' - contribute to that, I think: they show there are hardly any synonyms, they show that there is often a different underlying 'concept', etc._

Now, no speakers of Japanese, Chinese, African languages around? I remember vaguely the honorific suffixes _-san_, _-chan_, _-kun_, _-sama_ in Japanese...


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## Favara

*Catalan
*
1a. _Mestre_
1b. _Mestre, amo_
1c _Mestre_
1d _Mestre (val.)_, _cavaller, senyor_

2b. _Senyor_
2c. _Senyor_
2d. _Senyor (el nostre senyor_ = "our lord"_)_, _nostramo_
2e. _Senyor, cavaller, mestre_

_Mestre _from Latin _magister_.
_Amo_ from (according to the DCVB) _ama_ (wet nurse), itself derived from _mama_ (mum, mother). _Ama_ isn't used as "owner" for females, that's _mestressa_ (_mestre_ + fem.)
_Nostramo_ from _nostre amo_ ("our _amo_").
_Cavaller_ = knight, from _cavall_ (horse). There isn't a feminine form, women are either _senyora, senyoreta _or _dama _(Lat. _domina_ -> Fr. _dame_)
_Senyor_ from Latin _senior._


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## jazyk

For Portuguese, replace Catalan senyor with senhor, cavaller with cavalheiro, senyoreta with senhorita, mestressa with mestra, cavall with cavalo. The rest is spelled the same and behaves the same way.


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## ThomasK

Well, well, well: 'owner' connected with a 'wet nurse'... Very interesting, thanks!

Do you address some men as _*cavaller/ cavalheiro*_? I suppose that refers to chivalry, chivalresque(?) features, men with 'honour' (and qualities ?), but no horse... ;-)


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## jazyk

Sometimes we do, but I think it's falling out of use.

In Portuguese there are two words with different spellings and pronunciations:
cavalheiro - gentleman
cavaleiro - knight, horserider


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## Favara

ThomasK said:


> Do you address some men as _*cavaller/ cavalheiro*_? I suppose that refers to chivalry, chivalresque(?) features, men with 'honour' (and qualities ?), but no horse... ;-)


In Catalan it's a perfectly normal way of addressing strangers, specially in Valencian; so you'd be a _cavaller_ if you came here. It's like "gentleman" in English.
Same with _mestre_. In fact, when we're traveling by car and need some directions, Valencians often park near somebody and shout "mestre!" at them.

About _amo/ama_... I suppose that since an _ama _feeds and takes care of babies, somebody who "feeds" and takes care of anything else could be seen as a wet nurse. Don't you feed and take care of your dog? Don't you take care of your home and "feed" (maintain) it?


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## Orlin

Tjahzi said:


> In BCS, it does.





Maroseika said:


> Not _Gospodis _precisely, but господин (gospodin). This is standard Russian addressing nowadays (also госпожа - Gospozha - for a woman).


In Bulgarian господин is used in the same way as in Russian and BCS.


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## Outsider

I think the most idiomatic translation of the phrase "lord and master" into Portuguese would be "dono e senhor".

*dono* < L. _dominus_ 
*senhor* < L. _senior_

I assume the Latin roots are easily recognized by all...


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## ThomasK

Thanks, but what are their extra meanings? is a dono an owner? Senhor a master?


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## Outsider

Nowadays, _dono_ means owner and _senhor_ mainly means mister. However, in historical or religious contexts _senhor_ can also mean lord or master. The latter sense is the one present in the set phrase _dono e senhor_.


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## HUMBERT0

In Spanish (Mexico)
"señor y amo".


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## ThomasK

Could you be more specific on their meanings, Humberto ? I thought I had read about the 'amo' somewhere, but I can't seem to find it...


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## Outsider

"Amo" is another word that means lord or master. It exists in Portuguese as well, and would work here: "amo e senhor".


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## HUMBERT0

Yes, as Outsider points out “Amo”= “Master” and “Lord” = “Señor”, y like how Outsider arranged the order it sounds more natural “Amo y Señor”.


For example:

In the TV show “I dream of Jeannie” the word that she used to call him “master” was rightly translated as “Amo” into Spanish.
And for the usage of “Lord” in the Bible we use “Señor”


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## ThomasK

Any idea what the word is based upon? I just know 'amare' in Latin (to love), but that can't be the origin...


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## Outsider

According to the dictionary of the Real Academía Española, _amo_ is the feminine of _ama_, which derives from Hispanic Latin _amma_, meaning wetnurse. They do not say where the latter might have come from.


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## ThomasK

That's fine, thanks, but can an amma give birth to an owner ? ;-)


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## mataripis

Tagalog:1.) Lord= Panginoon    2.) Master= Guro'


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## ThomasK

Do you have other *pangi-* or *moon*-words (just trying)? And *guro *reminds me of guru. What are your associations with _guro_? Someone who knows a lot and/or someone who has a lot of power?


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## LilianaB

Lord is Pan and Master is Mistrz, in Polish. I have been trying to find out for a while where the word Pan comes from. It might come from shepherd. Lithuanian used mostly Polish titles. In fact there is a Lithuanian word for a lord: valdovas, which comes from valda estate and meistras for master which comes from the Latin master, I think. There is also ponas which means something similar to lord in some contexts.


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