# Merry Christmas - politically incorrect?



## tontolete

Le pregunté a un amigo norteamericano porqué en inglés se decía Merry Christmas en vez de Happy Christmas.... y francamente no puedo creer lo que me contestó.

Me dijo que en los Estados Unidos ya no se podia decir Merry Christmas, que la palabra Christmas esta casi prohibida, que ahora solo dicen happy holidays o Season's greetings.

Es eso cierto? si yo quiero desearle a mis amigos una feliz navidad no lo puedo hacer porque se enoja la gente? 

Entonces como debo decir? a mi season greetings no me dice nada y happy holidays pues es cualquier fiesta no?

Mi amigo estaba bromeando, no es verdad? Eso no puede ser cierto...


TRANSLATION:

I asked a friend from the US why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"...and to be honest I can't believe what he answered.

He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.

Is this true? If I want to wish my friends a Merry Christmas I can't in case I upset anyone?

So what should I say instead? Season's Greetings really doesn't mean anything to me and Happy Holidays is any holiday, isn't it?

My friend was joking, wasn't he? This can't be true...


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## ERASMO_GALENO

Tienes que averiguar lo que es "políticamente correcto".


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## jacinta

Hola, tontolete,

Me parece tontería lo que dice tu amigo.  Es cierto que hay muchas religiones y personas que no celebran la navidad pero de todos modos, sí es aceptado decir Merry Christmas a cualquier persona aquí.  No te preocupes.


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## tontolete

Gracias Jacinta. Me siento algo mejor.

Bueno, yo sé que este no es tema para el foro. Pero Erasmo, porqué se considera la navidad algo politicamente incorrecto?

Que raro cuando precisamente de eso se trata esta celebracion. 

Yo si he oido eso de la political correctness, creo que se llama y no le encuentro sentido. A mi pais eso no ha llegado y espero que no llegue nunca. 

Que extraordinario. 

Bueno, les deseo una feliz navidad a todos aqui. Ah y un prospero año nuevo también. 

tontolete


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## jinti

Es que la navidad es una celebración cristiana, y en este país hay muchísima gente que no se la celebra (judíos, muselmanes, y demás). Y recuerda que la navidad también es una temporada comercial, cuando las tiendas intentan vender lo máximo a toda la gente, no solamente a los cristianos, jejej. Como Hanukah viene alrededor de la Navidad, las tiendas quieren venderles regalos a los judíos también, y a toda persona que no puede resistir las gangas.  Y de ahí, mucho de la political correctness -- se dice Happy Holidays para incluir a todo el mundo y no dejar a nadie al márgen, porque puede ir a otra tienda.... También en lugares públicos, muchas veces se ponen carteles que dicen _Happy Holidays_ para incluir a todos. Hasta en la universidad donde trabajo, un alto porcentaje de los estudiantes y profesores no son cristianos, y solemos decir _Happy Holidays_ si no sabemos cuál "holiday" uno u otro celebra.

It's that Christmas is a Christian holiday, and in this country there are a lot of people who don't celebrate it (Jews, Muslims, and others).  And remember that Christmas is also a commercial season, when stores try to sell as much as possible to everybody, not just to Christians.  Since Hanukah falls around Christmastime, stores want to sell presents to Jewish people, too, and to everyone else who can't resist a sale.   So that's how you get a lot of the political correctness -- you say Happy Holidays to include everyone and not marginalize anyone, because they could go to some other store.....  Also, in public places, signs often say Happy Holidays to include everyone.  Even at the university where I work, a high percentage of students and faculty aren't Christian, and we tend to say Happy Holidays if we don't know which holiday someone or other celebrates.

_Addition:_  I don't think there's anything so terrible about wishing a non-Christian Merry Christmas -- it shouldn't cause him too many years on the analyst's couch -- but it is also true that members of dominant groups sometimes don't see how their behavior can be oh, a bit annoying to others. I'm not talking about this little thing of saying 2 words to someone, but the entire context of which that's just a tiny part: the INTENSE commercialization of the holiday -- which started before Halloween in my neighborhood this year! --, the fact that in many workplaces only this Christian holiday merits a day off from work, etc.  If Christmas weren't jammed down our throats by commercial interests for more than a month, people would probably be a bit more relaxed about it.


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## zebedee

Una pregunta interesante. Voy a mover este hilo al foro de Cultural Discussions porque tiene más cabida allí.


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## Soy Yo

Jinti tiene razón...no está prohibido pero puesto que en EE.UU. hay religiones que no celebran el nacimiento de Jesucristo y también muchos ateos, etc., algunos (todos los ?)judíos, musulmanes, ateos, etc., se sienten ofendidos si se les desea una "Feliz Navidad"...una manera de evitar la ofensa es expresar un deseo "no-sectario" como "Happy Holidays" puesto que todos celebran algo durante esta época del año...aunque sea sólo fin de año o Año Nuevo.

Así que si no sabes qué "creencia" tiene alguien que quieras saludar en esta temporada, "Happy Holidays" sirve.

Pero claro que no está prohibido "Merry Christmas" porque todos tenemos el derecho de la expresión


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## TrentinaNE

tontolete said:


> Is this true? If I want to wish my friends a Merry Christmas I can't in case I upset anyone?


If you know that your friends celebrate Christmas, then you have nothing to worry about in wishing them a _Merry Christmas._  With someone you don't know, who may not celebrate or recognize Christmas, Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings will be a "safer" choice.

Elisabetta


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## Lemminkäinen

tontolete said:


> He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.



Waay too much hyperbole.
It's a pretty small thing being blown out of proportions by some conservative media, claiming there's a "war on Christmas" because some people (most notably corporations) have started substituting "merry Christmas" with other greetings such as "happy holidays" or "season's greetings".

If you're writing a Christmas card to some friends, liberals won't storm your house and force you to end it with "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas", but that's obviously what some people seem to think.

I don't see why people should care what salutations are used by others, be they "happy Hannukah", "merry Christmas" or "happy Yuletide".


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## caballoschica

Lemminkäinen said:


> Waay too much hyperbole.
> It's a pretty small thing being blown out of proportions by some conservative media, claiming there's a "war on Christmas" because some people (most notably corporations) have started substituting "merry Christmas" with other greetings such as "happy holidays" or "season's greetings".
> 
> If you're writing a Christmas card to some friends, liberals won't storm your house and force you to end it with "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas", but that's obviously what some people seem to think.
> 
> I don't see why people should care what salutations are used by others, be they "happy Hannukah", "merry Christmas" or "happy Yuletide".



You're exactly right.  

I say Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year all year around...sarcastically sometimes if I feel like I'm giving the person a 'gift.'  Anyways, I said it the other week and someone asked me 'What if I was Jewish?' I'm like true, good point, maybe I should reform my habit to "Happy Birthday"  I think I will.  

There is not 'a war on Christmas' as your friend seems to think.  We'd just rather not offend someone's religion by telling them Merry Christmas when they aren't Christian.  First amendment of the Bill of Rights:  Freedom of Religion.  Stores use Happy Holidays so they don't offend other religions' holidays.  And we don't want it to seem like Christians are pushing their religion on people by saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.  They do try and push their religion on you, I've found, some times.  Someone told me to ask God about it when I told them I don't believe.  How is that going to work? 

A lot of liberals, like myself, say Merry Christmas.  I say Happy Holidays to people I don't know the religion of.  I heard someone say last year, "There's discrimination against Christians." It is Completely untrue!!


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## Sallyb36

I always say Happy Christmas and expect that if someone doesn't celebrate Christmas they would tell me, and then I could say happy whatever they celebrate.


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## JamesM

Well, I think the actual practice lies somewhere between the hyperbole of the original poster's friend and the downplaying of the most recent post, at least in the U.S. 

In business these days, people generally avoid mention of specific religious holidays on business cards, in business settings, or even among fellow employees. Unless you specifically know the person celebrates Christmas, "Happy Holidays" is the more common phrase for wishing people well during the holidays. Also, many common phrases that were used in the past in public settings that included religious holidays in their names have been altered to create a more "religion-neutral" environment. What used to be called "Christmas vacation" is now called "winter break". What used to be called the "Christmas concert" by the choir and band is now called the "winter concert." 

The effect is more far-reaching than Lemminkainen might be aware of. People are genuinely hesitant to say "Merry Christmas" in a public setting of any kind. For example, it used to be common for the cashier at a store to say "I hope you have a very merry Christmas" as you left his/her counter. That is gone as well. It's either "happy holidays" or nothing at all.  It has disappeared from hundreds of little places.  For example, there is a phone number you can call to get the correct time, offered as a service by the phone company.  On Christmas Day, it used to say, "Merry Christmas! (company-name) time is currently (time-of-day)".  That's gone, too.  They are each small in themselves, but the cumulative effect has a big impact.

In other words, there is a definite "chill" that has descended on the use of the phrase other than among friends or business associates you know well. It's not illegal, but its use has dropped dramatically in recent years.

As Lemminkainen says, I don't think it should matter how someone wishes you well. I would mind being wished a Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Hannukah, even though I don't celebrate either. I would just take it as someone wanting to share the joy of their holiday with me. There is such a fear of offending these days, though, that it has put a damper on sharing that kind of joy with others, whatever holiday you celebrate.


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## V3nom_is_here

tontolete said:


> Le pregunté a un amigo norteamericano porqué en inglés se decía Merry Christmas en vez de Happy Christmas.... y francamente no puedo creer lo que me contestó.
> 
> Me dijo que en los Estados Unidos ya no se podia decir Merry Christmas, que la palabra Christmas esta casi prohibida, que ahora solo dicen happy holidays o Season's greetings.
> 
> Es eso cierto? si yo quiero desearle a mis amigos una feliz navidad no lo puedo hacer porque se enoja la gente?
> 
> Entonces como debo decir? a mi season greetings no me dice nada y happy holidays pues es cualquier fiesta no?
> 
> Mi amigo estaba bromeando, no es verdad? Eso no puede ser cierto...
> 
> 
> TRANSLATION:
> 
> I asked a friend from the US why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"...and to be honest I can't believe what he answered.
> 
> He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.
> 
> Is this true? If I want to wish my friends a Merry Christmas I can't in case I upset anyone?
> 
> So what should I say instead? Season's Greetings really doesn't mean anything to me and Happy Holidays is any holiday, isn't it?
> 
> My friend was joking, wasn't he? This can't be true...


 
Are you serious ? This is wierd ... I don`t really think it can be true .. I think your friend was lying ..


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## Lemminkäinen

JamesM said:


> The effect is more far-reaching than Lemminkainen might be aware of.



Very possible (after all, while I try to get as much info on American culture as I can, I don't live there - reading through my post, perhaps I came across as too absolute in my words; this was not my intention  ).



> As Lemminkainen says, I don't think it should matter how someone wishes you well. I would mind being wished a Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Hannukah, even though I don't celebrate either. I would just take it as someone wanting to share the joy of their holiday with me. There is such a fear of offending these days, though, that it has put a damper on sharing that kind of joy with others, whatever holiday you celebrate.



I agree with this, and just to mention it, I think it's a bit silly to have to guard your tongue in a situation that's supposed to be festive and joyful.
I've seen some reactions (from both sides of this), and quite frankly, if you feel your faith is threatened by BestBuy wishing you Happy Holidays and not Merry Christmas, then I think it wasn't too stable to begin with (though this is, of course, a minority opinion).


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## Mate

Being a non-religious jew as I am, should I switch the traditional _shana tova_ for _Happy Holidays_ or _Season's Greetings_ from now on?


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## caballoschica

Lemminkäinen said:


> I agree with this, and just to mention it, I think it's a bit silly to have to guard your tongue in a situation that's supposed to be festive and joyful.
> I've seen some reactions (from both sides of this), and quite frankly, if you feel your faith is threatened by BestBuy wishing you Happy Holidays and not Merry Christmas, then I think it wasn't too stable to begin with (though this is, of course, a minority opinion).



You make an excellent point!  I agree with that!  I really don't think other minority religions really minded it when people used to say Merry Christmas, they'd just tell you they weren't Christian.  And now the Christians are becoming offended even though people aren't saying "Happy Channukah"  or other winter holiday, it's "Happy Holidays"  which includes Christianity.

mateamargo: You should say whatever you feel comfortable with.


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## Soy Yo

En español, ¿se dice "Felices Fiestas"? o no?


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## Mate

caballoschica said:


> mateamargo: You should say whatever you feel comfortable with.


I'm not concerned about political correctness. I won't get offended if someone, Christian or not, wishes me a Merry Christmas (I've always said that same salutation in return).
In addition to the above, I do not have the slightest intention to change our traditional _Shana Tova_ when our next anniversary as a nation comes for whatever reason, politically correct or not.

Merry Christmas - Mate


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## Mate

Soy Yo said:


> En español, ¿se dice "Felices Fiestas"? o no?


Si, pero también se acostumbra decir Feliz Navidad y Feliz Año Nuevo. Y a nadie se le mueve un pelo.


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## Soy Yo

Simplemente estoy señalando que en español existe un equivalente para "Happy Holidays"... y que si oyen "Felices Fiestas" no les parece raro.  No hay que sacarte de quicio por lo de Happy Holidays!


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## maxiogee

I am not religious, but I would still wish anyone a Happy Christmas - if they take offence, that's up to them - it is genuinely meant in a spirit of goodwill.

Christmas happens, whyether one celebrates it or not. What is wrong with wishing someone a few days of happiness?


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## V3nom_is_here

maxiogee said:


> I am not religious, but I would still wish anyone a Happy Christmas - if they take offence, that's up to them - it is genuinely meant in a spirit of goodwill.
> 
> Christmas happens, whyether one celebrates it or not. What is wrong with wishing someone a few days of happiness?


 
That`s the thing .. nothing is wrong with it .. I don`t understand how somebody could be offended by that


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## Sepia

I have heard of this not being PC, but think of it as absolute nonsense.

Christmas is the name of these holidays and whether people celebrate during that time or not there cannot be anything wrong with wishing they'll be happy  at this or any other time. 

I think such nonsense should make some Americans give it a thought if this whole PC-thing is of any value at all.


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## AIkelle

Mateamargo said:


> Si, pero también se acostumbra decir Feliz Navidad y Feliz Año Nuevo. Y a nadie se le mueve un pelo.


 

Most of Latin America is Christian so, people don’t really mind when hearing a _Feliz Navidad_, on the contrary, as it was mentioned earlier, it is received as an expression that comes with the sharing of the reason of joy for the holidays.

Besides, the Holidays wouldn’t be the same if for fear of offending we weren’t able to sing one of the most famous Spanish Christmas songs ever written: 

*Feliz Navidad*
*Feliz Navidad*
*Feliz Navidad, Próspero Año y Felicidad*


*I wanna wish you a Merry Christmas*
*I wanna wish you a Merry Christmas*
*I wanna wish you a Merry Christmas, from the bottom of my Heart.*

José Feliciano

Regards and, ¡Feliz Navidad!


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## xarruc

> why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"



I've always assumed Merry Christmas was used as you can then say "and a happy new year" - Happy Christmas can always be used but you cant say "merry new year". So that you dont repeat happy, merry makes a good alternative.


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## Lemminkäinen

Sepia said:


> Christmas is the name of these holidays [...]



Christmas is the name of _one_ of many holidays celebrated in the winter season, others being Solstice, Yule, Kwanzaa and Hanukkah to mention some.


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## ElaineG

America always takes a lot of heat on these issues, so I thought I'd note that most of the "war on christmas" stories I've been hearing this year have been coming out of the UK (we always have our share as well of course):  http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html

Personally, I don't celebrate Christmas and never have, but I don't get annoyed if someone wishes me a Merry Christmas.  I do usually try to tailor what I wish people to what I know they observe, and if I don't know, "Happy Holidays" works very well for me.

There are a multitude of holidays being observed in this period - even Christians are celebrating both Christmas and New Year -- and what's more the "holiday feeling" seems to cover a couple of week span when no one does much work and every one goes to a lot of parties, eats a lot etc.  The description "Happy holidays" fits just fine.


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## Tsoman

I don't understand how wishing a Merry Christmas to a non-Christian could be offensive.

I bet that it's not, to the majority of non-Christians.

Of course there are those people who get offended at everything. Some people even get offended on others' behalf. I think it's a way of feeling special.


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## TrentinaNE

Tsoman said:


> I don't understand how wishing a Merry Christmas to a non-Christian could be offensive.


One needn't understand something to recognize that it exists.  It's a matter of being sensitive to other people's viewpoints.  Isn't that what these CD threads are supposed to promote?   

Elisabetta


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## ElaineG

Not offensive, per se.  But I will try to explain:

At different points during my childhood, I was the only Jewish kid in my school, and even in my town.  (Not when we were in NY, obviously!)

At that time, and in those places, there was no thought given to cultural difference, or the possiblility thereof.  No one (well, not most people) meant badly, but in the way that kids do, I was very conscious of being different and of course as a kid different means "weird".  

This feeling of difference and left-outness was never so accentuated than at Christmas time, when it seemed like school, the town, all my friends exploded in an orgy of celebration that had nothing to do with me.  

It wasn't just the presents thing -- my parents, like most Jewish-American parents, upped the content and importance of Chanukkah to help ease those feelings.  

Did I feel offended when people wished me a Merry Christmas?  No.  Did I feel more mumble mumble strange when I had to explain that we didn't celebrate Christmas, conversations that as I grew older became increasingly tricky as I had to explain that no, we _didn't believe in Jesus_.  I still remember all the set speeches, "of course, he was a great man, it's just that we don't think he was the son of God..." to an often dubious and sometimes hostile audience.

I remember being called up on stage by some enlightened teacher during the middle school Christmas assembly and standing next to a creche to tell the Chanukkah story, and feeling like the weirdest kid on the planet.  Until my friend Niraj had to get up and tell the Diwali story, and the boys on the football team stopped mumbling "fucking Jew bagel" and started mumbling "dot head" ... 

As an adult, I love my atheist Catholic-raised boyfriend and his family more than anything, and I love decorating the tree with them, as I hope they enjoy lighting the menorah with me.

But I'm not sorry that most of the people around me now acknowledge that Christmas is not universally celebrated, and I don't regard it as an attack on anyone's tradition, but a recognition that not all of us have the same traditions.


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## maxiogee

TrentinaNE said:


> One needn't understand something to recognize that it exists.  It's a matter of being sensitive to other people's viewpoints.  Isn't that what these CD threads are supposed to promote?
> 
> Elisabetta



Sensitive to the point of _not_ wishing "Happy Christmas" to someone who is going to celebrate Christmas?
I doubt that anyone (sensible people) would _deliberately_ wish "Merry Christmas" to someone they knew to be a non-Christian.

Must Christians hide their faith in case anyone else takes umbrage? Are professions of _any_ faith to be discouraged lest some sensitive flower be upset by it? Because that's what one is doing when one wishes someone a Merry Christmas - professing one's own Christianity.


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## micafe

My personal opinion, and I don't know if anybody is going to feel offended, is that the United States is a mainly Christian country. The so-called 'Holidays' started to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. That's what it's all about, isn't it?

I myself feel bad when I go to a store and they say "Season's Greetings" (what season.. winter???) or "Happy Holidays". I always reply "Merry Christmas to you too". 

As far as I know 87% of the people in the US are *Christian*. Why should the other 13% feel offended because we celebrate our Christmas???. 

I bet they don't mind making money on the "Christmas gifts" people buy from them . 

Nobody has said for example that the Muslims cannot celebrate their Ramadan in their own countries!!! Their countries are Muslim.. they have the right to celebrate whatever.. and so do we!!!!! our country is Christian!! whether some people like it or not.

Those who don't like it don't need to celebrate. Nobody is making them do it. They should just close their eyes and ears, not buy presents, not have special dinners, etc. It's their privilege. Ours is to have our Christian celebrations. 

I'm very happy to know that this political correctness thing hasn't reached our Latin American countries,.. and I hope it never will. I'm not a terribly religious person, but I believe in traditions. 

*A country without traditions is nothing.*

*And as sad as it may sound, the United States is losing its* *traditions. Nothing is the same.*

I've become scared of saying things here I normally say in Colombia because they might not be politically correct. There's nothing wrong with them.. it's just that someone (who??? ) decided it was offensive to a minority of people. And I can't understand why.


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## ElaineG

> when one wishes someone a Merry Christmas - professing one's own Christianity.


 
I suppose it's based on your perspective.  I don't wish non-celebrators a Happy Hanukkah, but many non-celebrators wish me a Happy Hanukkah.

I don't celeberate Christmas, but I wish celebraters a "Merry Christmas".

I give my Muslim colleagues good wishes on Eid, not because I celebrate it but because they do.

I wish someone a Happy Birthday, not because it's my birthday, but because it's theirs.

Therefore, I've always seen these types of wishes as directed at the recipient, and therefore an expression of goodwill towards their tradition, not a celebration of mine.

Now, maybe in Ireland, Merry Christmas is a pretty safe bet.

Here in NY, trying to divine who celebrates what would be tricky business.  I get into a cab and the driver looks dark skinned and speaks with an South Asian accent:  He could be Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, something else, or he could be a Christian minority from that area.  I don't _know_ anything about him.  But I do know that wishing him "Happy Holidays" is a safe and polite thing to say, New Year's being a secular holiday in this country.

Similarly, what of my African-American friend Toyah, converted to Buddhism through her husband?  Meeting her, you'd probably say, "oh, Merry Christmas will go down well there" -- you'd have to chat a while to know that she's very unChristian.  So, why not go with Happy Holidays?


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## TrentinaNE

maxiogee said:


> Sensitive to the point of _not_ wishing "Happy Christmas" to someone who is going to celebrate Christmas?


My comment was in direct response to this claim:


> I don't understand how wishing a Merry Christmas to a non-Christian could be offensive.


and I said above that


> If you know that your friends celebrate Christmas, then you have nothing to worry about in wishing them a _Merry Christmas._  With someone you don't know, who may not celebrate or recognize Christmas, Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings will be a "safer" choice.


Though why anyone is so concerned about wishing anything to people whom they don't know is rather beyond me.  "Good evening" and "thank you" work just as well in December as any other time of year.



> I myself feel bad when I go to a store and they say "Season's Greetings" (what season.. winter???) or "Happy Holidays". I always reply "Merry Christmas to you too".


Because Jesus Christ was all about settling scores, right? I'm not very religious these days, but I recall singing a hymn in church many years ago, the chorus of which was "And they'll know we are Christians by our love." I think Jesus would be shaking his head in disbelief over all the umbrage and outrage expressed about his birthday and how little love actually seems to be shared.  

Elisabetta


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## ElaineG

> The so-called 'Holidays' started to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. That's what it's all about, isn't it?


 
That's so ignorant, I don't even know where to start.  Winter solstices pre-date Jesus Christ.  Hanukkah predates Jesus Christ, by a bit.
As I understand it, the big hooplah about Christmas started to replace traditional pagan winter festivals tied to the darkest time of the year, etc.  The big religious festival was originally Easter.



> I myself feel bad when I go to a store and they say "Season's Greetings" (what season.. winter???) or "Happy Holidays". I always reply "Merry Christmas to you too".


 
Why do you feel bad?  And why should you wish someone something that they may not celebrate? Why don't you say, "I celebrate Christmas, so it's Merry Christmas, for me."



> Why should the other 13% feel offended because we celebrate our Christmas???.


 
No one is offended that you celebrate "your" Christmas.   No one has been stopped from celebrating Christmas.  The question is, to what extend do you care about the feelings of the 13%?  Are they an important part of public life or not? You would find it very strange indeed I think, if your employer or town hung up "Happy Eid" banners or "Merry Diwali" or insisted that everyone get into the "Purim Spirit". 



> I bet they don't mind making money on the "Christmas gifts" people buy from them


 
Who is this mysterious "they"/"them"?  Care to explain that one?  Anyway, plenty of other traditions have gift giving exchanges during this season anyway.  



> Nobody has said for example that the Muslims cannot celebrate their Ramadan in their own countries!!!


 
Thankfully, they can celebrate it here too.  Thank God, Allah, whoever for that.



> Their countries are Muslim.. they have the right to celebrate whatever.. and so are we!!!!! our country is Christian!! whether some people like it or not.


 
The Constitution does not agree with you.  Again, thankfully.  I am not a Christian, does this mean that this is not my country?  If I wanted to be rude, I'd say it was more my country than yours, but I don't think that way.  This is a country.  A country does not have a religion.  People do.
Again, no one has anywhere indicated that you can't celebrate anything you like.



> *And as sad as it may sound, the United States is losing its* *traditions. Nothing is the same.*


 
Which traditions are those that we are losing?  And nothing is the same as when?  When religious bigotry against Catholics, Jews, Mormons, you name it was the norm rather than the exception?


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## micafe

I don't think many people get the point. The problem is not wishing "merry Christmas" to a single person. The problem now is big chain stores are afraid to put up Christmas trees and signs saying "Merry Christmas" because then non Christians will not go there to buy stuff. That seems to me kind of stupid. Now, taking it into account that most people in this country are Christians and celebrate Christmas, I don't think those stores will have much trouble making lots of money at this time of the year.. and they actually do. 

They don't want to offend the non-Christians. But how about Christians??? Can they -who are actually majority- be offended by seeing how their traditions are being dumped because somebody decided so? 

No, no matter what some people say, I'll never accept that silly political correctness. And the fact that the US is falling into that makes me really sad. Some people seem to always be trying to find an excuse to complain about something someone else said. It's become an obsession. 

What a shame.


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## ElaineG

> They don't want to offend the non-Christians. But how about Christians??? Can they -who are actually majority- be offended by seeing how their traditions are being dumped because somebody decided so?


 
Almost every large chain store I've been in is filled with Christmas decorations. All stores are decked to the nines, and Christmas (and Hanukkah) music is playing everywhere I go. My office building has 15 christmas trees, a million lights, and one menorah. My apartment building has three Christmas trees, several wreaths, and one menorah. 

The famous Macy's Santa is alive and well, as is the Rock Center Christmas tree (actually, that's dead and well, but you know what I mean), as are the 5th Avenue Christmas windows.

Could someone give me some facts, rather than hysteria, here please?

Anyway, please explain to me what part of the Christmas tradition it is that requires that large chain stores wish everyone a merry Christmas.

Did that start in Bethelem? Did the Bethelem Wal-Mart put on a big do in the year 00 with fir trees imported from the distant North to welcome the Christian Savior?

Or was that something that started in the Middle Ages? Trobadours singing Christmas carols in the atrium of the local Macy's?

Or maybe it didn't come around til the founding of America? We know how big the Puritans were on glitter, glitz, graven images and pagan celebrations of Christian rites. So they probably hung up a glittering winking neon Merry Christmas banner covered in elves and reindeer over the stocks in Salem.

Frankly, as a non-Christian, I'm rather content to let most of the fuss blow by me.  If I were Christian, I think I'd be more offended by my religious and family holiday turning into the world's biggest commercial orgy than by the difference between Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas.


----------



## TrentinaNE

micafe said:


> The problem now is big chain stores are afraid to put up Christmas trees and signs saying "Merry Christmas" because then non Christians will not go there to buy stuff. That seems to me kind of stupid. Now, taking it into account that most people in this country are Christians and celebrate Christmas, I don't think those stores will have much trouble making lots of money at this time of the year.. and they actually do.


Welll, now you're just talking about a business decision. If you don't want to patronize the stores that aren't saying "Merry Christmas," then you don't have to. Life is full of choices.  My experience here in Boston is much like Elaine's in NY. The pervasiveness of Christmas trees and other decorations, as well as Christmas music piped in everywhere, borders on overkill. 


> Some people seem to always be trying to find an excuse to complain about something someone else said. It's become an obsession.


And you don't see the irony of these statements?


----------



## cuchuflete

If you have been around these forums for more than a day or two, I think you will know that I have little patience with excessive political kerrectitude.  That is not the same as dismissing any and all attempts at sensitivity and common sense.

Since when did the advertising slogans of big chain stores have a damned thing to do with the essence of Christmas?

If the 'attack on tradition' is reflected by a commercial decision to seek a general greeting that goes down well with 100% of the buying public, rather than a large subset, what on earth has that got to do with anyone's right to enjoy their secular holiday expressions?  I assume that people practice their religious expression of Christmas spirit at home and in church, and not in the isles of Wal-mart!

I wish people a Merry Christmas if I know they celebrate Christmas.  If I don't know whether they do or not, I choose a more open-ended phrase.  That's being considerate, not ideological or PC.  They can say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas to me, and I take it as an expression of goodwill, and don't get my knickers in a twist one way or the other.  

I defy anyone to show me how a change in commercial behaviour by profit-seeking enterprises intrudes on any honest, sincere religious celebration.   

If you don't want to patronize stores without Christmas trees (show me the deep spiritual symbolism of those, please!), then shop elsewhere.


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## JamesM

ElaineG said:


> Could someone give me some facts, rather than hysteria, here please?


 
That, in itself, seems a bit hysterical, ElaineG.  I have not been hysterical, nor have many others who have been engaging in this debate.

The part that feels uncomfortable may be difficult for you to empathize with but to claim it is hysteria is dismissive and belittling.

It is a situation unique to the U.S., I believe, that we have a country with a vast majority of people who are followers of a particular faith but the fact is obscured to a great degree in the public arena. 

We are not a Christian country, despite what some may think.  We do not have a state religion.  We work hard to separate Church and State.  Those are all great things, in my opinion.

We are, however, country made up mostly of Christians.  However, I personally think it is lamentable that a great deal of subtle pressure is brought to bear in the workplace specifically, in the public arena in general, to act as if this were not the case.   I'm not saying that anyone should be minimized, but neither should people feel concerned about expressing their own well wishes from their own traditions.


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## ElaineG

For the record, I just went to Walmart's website, won't post the link in deference to the rules, but the website has four links under the what's new section: "Christmas"; "Hanukkah"; "Kwanzaa" and "Elmo T.M.X."
If you click on any of those links, you'll get your holiday cheer, tailor made for you.

I don't know about you all, but bowing to the traditionally important role played by big chain stores in setting the spiritual holiday tone, I'm going to wish everyone a *"**Merry Elmo T.M.X."* from now on.


----------



## ElaineG

> That, in itself, seems a bit hysterical, ElaineG. I have not been hysterical, nor have many others who have been engaging in this debate.


 
I was responding specifically to the post by Micafe who said that America was not what it once was because large chain stores do not celebrate Christmas as they once did. That should have been clear from the rest of my post.



> It is a situation unique to the U.S., I believe, that we have a country with a vast majority of people who are followers of a particular faith but the fact is obscured to a great degree in the public arena.


 
If you read my post linking the Guardian article above, you will see that situation is not unique to the U.S. It is also present in the UK. I would not be surprised to learn that similar issues were present in Canada, which has a strong tradition of multiculturalism.



> I'm not saying that anyone should be minimized, but neither should people feel concerned about expressing their own well wishes from their own traditions.


 
As I said in post #33, I have always seen wishes as being directed at the wishee, but I guess some people see them as being about the wisher.



> However, I personally think it is lamentable that a great deal of subtle pressure is brought to bear in the workplace specifically, in the public arena in general, to act as if this were not the case.


 
As I alluded to in post #30, I have experienced religious pressure subtle and unsubtle -- from being told by a 10th grade English teacher that she would give me special permission not to _read the book of Job_ because she understood that Jews despised the Bible, to my family being denied admission to the local tennis club, to being called all sorts of ethnic slurs by all sorts of kids and standing by embarrassed while those slurs were used in my presence by kids who didn't know I was Jewish, to having our synagogue covered in Nazi slogans by a gang of Midwestern kids who later said that their fathers agreed that having Jews in town was disgusting. I am heartily sorry that you are now experiencing these types of persecutions, no one should. 

My experiences growing up in certain parts of the Midwest (again, not the parts of my childhood I spent here) have led me to believe that we are not adult enough as a society to coexist with multiple religions in the public sphere, and the best place for religion is therefore in the private sphere.

But again, I dislike persecution of every stripe, and I'm very sorry that you feel that as a Christian you are subject to pressure not to be yourself. I still don't think it has f-all to do with chain stores.


----------



## micafe

ElaineG said:


> That's so ignorant, I don't even know where to start.
> 
> *Thank you!!! you are so kind... *
> 
> *This is a relatively new country. The reason why those celebrations started in the US was because of the birth of Jesus the Christ.*
> 
> Why do you feel bad? *Because I know those people have been told specifically not to say "Merry Christmas"..* And why should you wish someone something that they may not celebrate?* What's wrong with it? If I were in a Muslim country and they wished me whatever they wish there, I'd say 'thank you very much, the same to you'. *
> 
> Why don't you say, "I celebrate Christmas, so it's Merry Christmas, for me." *That's similar to what I say.*
> 
> No one is offended that you celebrate "your" Christmas. No one has been stopped from celebrating Christmas. *Of course, inside your home you still can do whatever you want. But they don't want celebrations in public places even if people want them. The non-Christians do not need to take part in them. I thought this was a free country.*
> 
> The question is, to what extend do you care about the feelings of the 13%? Are they an important part of public life or not? *Of course I care for them and I respect them. That is precisely why I expect them to respect me!!!!!*
> 
> You would find it very strange indeed I think, if your employer or town hung up "Happy Eid" banners or "Merry Diwali" or insisted that everyone get into the "Purim Spirit". *If it's that time of the year why not??????*
> 
> *I'm not Mexican and I've seen many times banners saying "Feliz cinco de Mayo". I don't feel offended. Why should I? I just don't celebrate it. *
> 
> Who is this mysterious "they"/"them"? Care to explain that one? *Sure... the non-Christians that own stores and are making a lot of money selling Christmas presents. They don't complain about that, do they. And it's ok with me, it's their business and businesses are made to make money. But then, do not complain because in the Shopping Mall they put up a Christmas Tree!!! *
> 
> Anyway, plenty of other traditions have gift giving exchanges during this season anyway. *Sure.. but I can assure you, most of them are Christmas gifts. Those stores wouldn't survive if only 13% of the population bought gifts. *
> 
> Thankfully, they can celebrate it here too. Thank God, Allah, whoever for that.* Yes, that's good and I can agree with that. And Christians do not oppose to that. *
> 
> The Constitution does not agree with you *in what way? Does the Constitution say you can't say "Merry Christmas? Because that's all my point.* Again, thankfully *Phew!.* I am not a Christian, *I can tell!! *does this mean that this is not my country? *Am I saying that?.. *If I wanted to be rude, I'd say it was more my country than yours,*you already said it in a very subtle way.. clever.. **but really, I couldn't care less what you think, I know what I am, that's all that matters..* but I don't think that way. This is a country. A country does not have a religion. People do. *That's exactly what I'm saying.*
> 
> Again, no one has anywhere indicated that you can't celebrate anything you like. *Yes, they have, because if people want to put up Christmas trees and decorations and banners saying "Merry Christmas" in, let's say, a public park, some people are going to protest. In fact, they've done it many times. Why? doing that is part of the celebration, isn' it??? *
> 
> *Would you tell the Mexicans they cannot put up a banner saying "feliz cinco de mayo"? It's their celebration. The only difference is, it's not a religious celebration.. That's what I find peculiar. It seems to do with religion always. *
> 
> Which traditions are those that we are losing? *Most of them. They have become a business. All people care about is money, money, money. Now the reason to celebrate 'mother's day', 'father's day' 'Halloween', etc, is because stores are going to sell more. That's all people seem to care about.*
> 
> And nothing is the same as when? When religious bigotry against Catholics, Jews, Mormons, you name it was the norm rather than the exception?* Geez... you are incredible.. lol.. going to extremes. That's not what I'm saying and, if you are as intelligent as I think you are, you know that perfectly well. *
> *What I'm saying is exactly the opposite. Let people have their celebrations without feeling offended because it does not make any sense!!![/*quote]
> 
> *I apologize if I offended anybody. I was just giving an opinion and there was a nasty reaction on this person's part. God knows why.*
> 
> *This is the last I'm going to say about this, I don't think it's worth it.*
> 
> *I also apologize for any mistakes I might have made in English. *
> .


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## Soy Yo

A couple of observations, the whole deal with the government is we have separation of church and state...and so there's a very fine line. The government (and its agencies, including schools) has mainly opted officially NOT to recognize Christmas. (But, government offices DO close )....

What businesses do is up to them. As was just pointed out, if it's in their interest to say Merry Christmas and make more money they'll do it. Freedom of expression.

What people do individually is up to them and there are millions of attitudes here. If you think it's societal pressure and you refuse to give in to pressure, that's fine...say Merry Christmas to your heart's content. If you find it awkward to wish someone who is not or may not be Christian a "Merry Christmas", by all means don't do it. You don't have to wish them anything or you can wish them Happy Holidays. Freedom of expression.

As for the word "season." Season not only means "spring,summer, autumn, winter" it also means the "time of the year"...so this is the season for hartos holidays...that's why we can call it the "Holiday Season" and wish "Happy Holiday Season" and "Season's Greetings" to everybody if we want to. Freedom of expression.


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## tontolete

Yo inicié este hilo y he tratado de entender todos los posts, desafortunadamente mi inglés no es tan bueno. Pero creo haber entendido la mayor parte.

La reacción iracunda de esa persona defendiendo el que no se debe decir 'merry Christmas', solo porque él no es cristiano y en contra de alguien que está tratando, a mi modo de ver, de ser justo, es increíble.

Malinterpretando lo que los demas dicen, no va a arreglar nada. 

Yo siempre pensé que los Estados Unidos eran el modelo de la libertad. Parece ser que no. 

Por lo que entiendo, ya no se pueden decir muchas cosas porque son ofensivas. Aún sin que intrínsecamente lo sean. Qué de malo tiene desearle feliz navidad a alguien así no sea cristiano?. Para mí es un acto de amabilidad mas que cualquier otra cosa.

Como dijo alguien, gracias a Dios eso no ha llegado a nuestros países latinoamericanos, al menos todavía. Pero como somos amigos de 'copiar' todo lo malo de los llamados países desarrollados, no tiene nada de raro que pronto suceda. 

No quiero vivir para verlo. 

Me dan lástima los niños de hoy, van a vivir en un mundo muy complicado. 

Qué bueno pensar que yo todavia en mi pais puedo decir "feliz navidad" sin que la gente me mire feo o me insulte.


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## ElaineG

> *But they don't want celebrations in public places even if people want them. *


 
This has to do with the separation of Church and State and government sponsorship of religion. You mentioned public parks -- those are public spaces. In the weird jurisprudence that has evolved, Christmas trees are usually OK, creches are not.

Those are fundamental principles of this country. 



> *The reason why those celebrations started in the US was because of the birth of Jesus the Christ.*


 
Of course, the Puritans or even our founding fathers 150 years later would not have recognized anything that passes for public or private celebration of Christmas in what goes on today, so I don't think that tradition is a good place to start.

Oliver Cromwell's puritan government banned _all_ celebrations of Christmas in England while they were in power there, and they brought those convictions with them to the New World.



> Puritans in the New World brought their ban with them, so in heavily Puritan Boston Christmas wasn’t celebrated between 1659 and 1681 (though Virginians and New Yorkers kept the party going). After the American Revolution, Christmas was seen as an English tradition and fell out of favor in the states.


 
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/3359

As late as 1847, my college, which was founded in the Puritan vein did not have a Christmas holiday.

So I don't think tradition is a great justification for a huge public celebration of Christmas -- especially not one that entails lots of glitzy trappings.

But the Fouding Fathers did write both the freedom of religion and the separation of church and state into the Constitution. So, no parks, possibly no Christmas celebrations -- Churches, privately rented facilities, your house, Madison Square Garden if you've got the dough -- go right ahead.

I don't think it's a bad compromise.


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## Soy Yo

Local tradition plays a role in this as well.  If you are in a small town and the town puts up a Christmas tree or creche in its park...and everyone in that town is Christian or doesn't care and NOBODY COMPLAINS or starts a law suit, that tree/creche may stay there for the entire season.  If it attracts attention and gets some complaints, then it may disappear in a New York minute.


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## ElaineG

> If you are in a small town and the town puts up a Christmas tree or creche in its park...and everyone in that town is Christian or doesn't care and NOBODY COMPLAINS or starts a law suit,


 
That's true. My town in Kansas was like that -- a Creche on the town hall lawn.  Not everyone was Christian, but those of us who weren't (the odd Jew, the odd Native American, the odd Indian or Chinese immigrant) had enough to do just getting along to call attention to ourselves by starting a lawsuit.  

People may see the complainers about such things as PC whiners, but I think they are brave to defend their Constitutional rights in the face of majoritarian (83%, as we've been reminded) pressure.


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## cuchuflete

> Which traditions are those that we are losing? Most of them. They have become a business. All people care about is money, money, money. Now the reason to celebrate 'mother's day', 'father's day' 'Halloween', etc, is because stores are going to sell more. That's all people seem to care about.


_ Screaming *Bold* removed, for legibility.
_
And, back in the good old days, when nobody gave a thought to the words used to greet anyone between Thanksgiving Day and mid-January, it was all about deep spiritual conviction, adoration of ......  Right.  Selective memory is a wonderful thing.

Let's get this straight:  The country is, according to a resident expert, 87% Christian.  (I don't think that's a correct number, but a large majority of the US population has at very least a nominal tie to some Christian religion or other, so we don't need to quibble about shakey statistics, at least not during the 
 holiday Christmas season.  Continuing right along, people used to buy lots of gifts during the holiday Christmas season.  Then, all the fine old commercial _deeply spiritual_ traditions came apart at the seams, and what happened?  People continued to buy lots of gifts during the holiday Christmas season.  

Stores used to display Christmas trees back in the good old days.  Stores display Christmas trees today.  But way back when....they had a deep spiritual meaning.  Today they are about supporting Canadian Christmas tree farmers?

The absolute and total decay of society as we know it is a function of a great international conspiracy, which is shredding the moral foundations of our nation by allowing Wal-mart to change its advertising slogans some of the time, to the terrible consternation of a beleagured majority.  

All people care about is money, money, money, and yet we have the true spiritual stalwarts, bent on preserving the appropriate commercially endorsed spiritual holiday greetings, the better to induce shoppers to spend money in the holiday Christmas spirit.


Well, I think I'll go turn on the Limbaugh program for an hour of confirmation that the world is going to hell in a handbasket,  Wal-mart is a sellout to the nefarious liberal commie pinko conspiracy, and Nancy Pelosi is an agent of Satan, and I can buy a pure silk Rush Republican necktie with pretty reindeer leaning to the right while saying, "Ho ho ho! Meeeeeeery Christmas!"

Then I'll go into the village to see all the pretty holiday Christmas trees and lights and get all nostalgic about the good old days when people said Merry Christmas when you paid for your spiritual purchases.


----------



## JamesM

Apparently this has turned into a trading of harangues rather than a discussion.  Pity.  There is something to be discussed here, but the knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the fence make it next to impossible.


----------



## ElaineG

Researching the history of Christmas in the U.S., I found this:



> Although Christmas was not widely celebrated in New England until 1852, it was popular in the American South beginning with the Anglican settlement of Jamestown, Virginia in 1607. The Virginian colonists were the first to establish eggnog as a holiday beverage. ("Nog" may come from the word *grog*, meaning any drink made with rum.) ... In 1836 Alabama became the first State to recognize Christmas, which finally became a federal holiday in 1870.


 
In the spirit of compromise, I would like to say that I will offer free legal services to anyone who wants to get back to the real American traditions of Christmas by dishing up egg nog in a public park. (No mixes please, from scratch only!)


----------



## papillon

tontolete said:


> Yo siempre pensé que los Estados Unidos eran el modelo de la libertad. Parece ser que no.


sorry for writing in English - my Spanish is only approaching decent.

Tontolete, I think you misinterpeted the situation in the United States. It is now December 14, and the signs of Christmas are everywhere. I am in Boston, and there is a large Christmas tree in a big park in downtown (Boston Common). There is an even bigger tree in the Rockefeller center in New York City, with hundreds of thousands of tourists around. My work holds a Christmas party, which I happily attend (for the booze), even though I am not a Christian.

Christians in EEUU are not fed to lions. Even for saying Merry Christmas. In fact, people say Merry Christmas all the time.

The US is a multicultural, multi-faith country. Happy Holidays - why is this offensive? 
A store can put up many signs: Merry Christmas, Sappy Hanukkah, Happy Quanza ... Or they can say: Happy Holidays. 

My suggestion: come to the US in December. You will see plenty of Christmas around!



> Originally Posted by *micafe*
> I bet they don't mind making money on the "Christmas gifts" people buy from them


 I know, those pesky Jews and Indians making money on poor Christians. When will it stop??


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## JamesM

ElaineG said:
			
		

> In the spirit of compromise, I would like to say that I will offer free legal services to anyone who wants to get back to the real American traditions of Christmas by dishing up egg nog in a public park. (No mixes please, from scratch only!)


 
Cute. But since "I see things from a different point of view" = "I am hysterical", I don't think there's much room for compromise here, nor intelligent discussion. Apparently the issue is too much of a hot button for too many to have a decent discussion. 

I do not agree with many statements that micafe has made. However, I do sympathize with certain aspects of what he is saying. There is too much hostility here, though, to actually make it worthwhile to attempt to discuss it. Perhaps this in itself is an answer to the original poster's question. 

There is a vehemence and vigor with which this topic is attacked if anyone wishes to discuss a change in the way in which this holiday is being expressed in the public arena. To even note the change is "hysterical", "hyperbole", right-wing ravings. Raving is an equal opportunity behavior, as is obvious here. To attribute so much to a basic statement is painting with a very, very broad brush. I am not right-wing, from all acounts of those who know me, but I'm already labeled as such simply because I have a differeing viewpoint on this topic.

I'm frankly surprised that this board, of all places, would not have room to discuss this in a more rational, measured fashion.


----------



## ElaineG

I started out in this discussion by saying in my first post that I was not offended by people who wished me a Merry Christmas, but that I viewed Happy Holidays as a more general and acceptable alternative.

In my second post, I explained why, in my view, some people might find the public pervasiveness of Christmas offensive. No one addressed the issues I raised there.

After that we were told that America is a Christian country, and that we are losing all our traditions because of behavior cited at "large chain stores."

I labeled _that _hysteria.   In using the word hysteria, I was also informed by the Guardian article I linked, which I doubt anyone read, which discussed how the War on Christmas in both the U.S. and the UK was largely an unfounded media creation that had few facts to back up the proclamations that Fox News here and the Sun there, had made.  As I said, I live in a place where Christmas everything is pervasive -- I can't go outside at lunch because of all the people coming to see the Rock Center tree.  Remaining in my building, I am surrounded in our cafeteria by Christmas and Hanukkah decorations.

If there are places where people are not experiencing this, I am curious to hear about them

I don't see anywhere else in this thread the word "hysteria" has been used.

I don't see where you have found the words "right wing ravings" either. Have I missed them?

I too was dismayed by the vigor with which micafe attacked after I expressed pleasure over recent changes in the way this holiday is expressed in the public arena. I would wish for more, largely because I think the types of public excess and commercialism that surround this whatever you want to call it period are distasteful.


----------



## AuPhinger

micafe said:


> I'm very happy to know that this political correctness thing hasn't reached our Latin American countries,.. and I hope it never will. I'm not a terribly religious person, but I believe in traditions.
> 
> *A country without traditions is nothing.*
> 
> *And as sad as it may sound, the United States is losing its* *traditions. Nothing is the same.*
> 
> I've become scared of saying things here I normally say in Colombia because they might not be politically correct. There's nothing wrong with them.. it's just that someone (who??? ) decided it was offensive to a minority of people. And I can't understand why.



I have quoted only part of micafe's post, the part I feel most strongly about.  I am not going into all of the discussion, arguments, etc., because this is not the place for it.  But what she describes is to me the case.  

In so many instances, certainly not just Christmas, we as a society are becoming afraid of our own shadows in the name of "political Correctness".  Tis indeed a shame.


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## JamesM

Well over half a dozen people were involved in the discussion before the post involving "hysteria", ElaineG, but your actual statement was:

"Could someone give me some facts, rather than hysteria, here please?"

If you can't see this as a dismissive remark towards those who disagree with you, there's not much point in pursuing a discussion about it.

There are so many assumptions being made here about what someone *must* believe if they believe that "Merry Christmas" as a greeting is somewhat suppressed in our society compared to the past that there's no room to discuss the topic itself.

As for right-wing ravings, you'll note that I didn't put it in quotes. That was intentional, to signal that they were my words, not someone else's. I figure it's an apt summing-up of this harangue, though:

"Well, I think I'll go turn on the Limbaugh program for an hour of confirmation that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, Wal-mart is a sellout to the nefarious liberal commie pinko conspiracy, and Nancy Pelosi is an agent of Satan, and I can buy a pure silk Rush Republican necktie with pretty reindeer leaning to the right while saying, "Ho ho ho! Meeeeeeery Christmas!"

This is what I mean. This is not conducive to any type of discussion.

Ironically, this bulldozer demonization of those who disagree, falsely attributing a whole boatload of opinions, thoughts, and attitudes to them because they disagree with the speaker on one point, reminds me very much of Rush Limbaugh, a detestable character, in my opinion.  I find the same tactics being employed for a different point of view have the same ugly ring to them.


----------



## ElaineG

> If you can't see this as a dismissive remark towards those who disagree with you, there's not much point in pursuing a discussion about it.


 
I don't know how many times and ways I can say that statement responded to the quote that I put above it. It should have been clear from the whole post which was addressed to that point. 



> There are so many assumptions being made here about what someone *must* believe if they believe that "Merry Christmas" as a greeting is somewhat suppressed in our society compared to the past that there's no room to discuss the topic itself.


 
Maybe you can clarify something about what you feel people are saying about what someone "must believe" if they believe that Merry Christmas is somewhat supressed -- and I assume, that this a bad thing. (I agree that it is somewhat suppressed, and view that as an expression and recognition of the diversity of this country, so not as a bad thing).

I am having a hard time figuring out what that is. My tendency before this thread would have been to say that people who care one way or another about the phrasing of a holiday greeting are oversensitive.

But when I am told that "America is a Christian country" and that "they" can celebrate "their" holidays in their own countries, then I think that maybe I am wrong, that there is more to holiday greetings than a choice of words, more or less sensitive, more or less thoughtful, that people view this as an us _v. _them issue, that I don't belong in my own country, and that I am irretrievably part of _them._

If people feel that their right to say Merry Christmas derives from their right to set the tone and the rules in this country because they belong to the majority religion, than I do find "Merry Christmas" more troubling that I thought it was. 

As I have described, I have lived this side of America, and it is _very unpleasant _to put it mildly. It's hard for people like me to forget that the people who litigated the Christmas cross in the public space case in Ohio were the Ku Klux Klan. I don't normally let things like that influence my view of Season's Greetings v. Merry Christmas, but "America is a Christian country" is a pretty strong statement. 

The majority rules, 87%, get used to it viewpoint is very troubling to me. I can't pretend it's not.


----------



## JamesM

This "I am told" is a characterization, ElaineG. Can you not see that? No one is "telling" anyone anything in a discussion. They are expressing viewpoints.  micafe's posts carry no more or less weight than yours or mine.  It's an exchange of ideas, positions, thoughts, and feelings.

I can only speak for myself. Only one person on this thread has taken the point of view that this is a Christian country and has used the "they" to refer to people of other faith. Yet, somehow, I, who do think it's a bad thing to have the expression suppressed, but for very different reasons, am now part of your "they/them" in people who wish to feel a freedom to express myself with a "Merry Christmas" and have it allowed in the public arena.

So one person speaking this way has now determined in your mind what *everyone* feels about wanting to express this particular holiday wish freely? Until we can talk about this, one person to one person, rather than getting lumped into "religous right-wing" and "leftie God-haters", there's no discussion. I am religious. I am not right-wing. I do not say that the minority should "lump it" when it comes to the tone and rules of this country. Why are you assuming so much from one person's posts? 

If I assumed you would be as biting and attacking as cuchuflete in this discussion, I would have stopped posting a while back. I have very little patience for sarcastic diatribes. I get the impression that the two of you are generally in agreement that the reduction of "Merry Christmas" is a good thing, or at least not a bad thing, but you obviously have very different ways of expressing it and probably different motiviations for your position. Can you leave the same room for those who feel it's a bad thing? Maybe there's more than one reason why someone might think that.


----------



## ElaineG

> Only one person on this thread has taken the point of view that this is a Christian country and has used the "they" to refer to people of other faith.


And that is I've been responding to -- you didn't answer my post in response to you many posts back.



> Yet, somehow, I, who do think it's a bad thing to have the expression suppressed, but for very different reasons, am now part of your "they/them" in people who wish to feel a freedom to express myself with a "Merry Christmas" and have it allowed in the public arena.


 
Well, I'm still waiting to hear any reasons other than: a) this is a Christian country, or b) the contrary view is political correctness.

I will tell you quite openly that public displays of religion make me deeply uncomfortable.  To me it is like making out with your partner in public.  It's a great and wonderful thing, but let's do it in private.

That comes from a personal experience of (other than in NY) being in a tiny minority of my religion,as well as a cultural practice in my religion that makes religion community and home centered -- not public centered -- for most of our 5,000 year history we have not been in the majority in any place, and for much of that history we've been actively chased around by someone or another with more or less murderous intent, so we've learned to keep religion to ourselves, for the most part.  Also, we actively do not believe in proselytizing, and if someone wishes to convert, they must ask 3 times and be refused, to test their sincerity, so this also tends to make our religious display less overt than some other faiths where actively seeking to convert the public is a mandate or a mission.

So I guess I have several questions:

1) Is saying "Merry Christmas" relating to an expression of actual overt active Christianity or not?  I'm very confused by that.  Some people on this thread seem to say yes.  Others say it's just a nice thing to say, and how could anyone take offense to it.  I say "Merry Christmas" to those who celebrate it, because I'm _wishing them a good time on a festive day_.  But some people seem to want to say it to affirm their Christianity?  Is that right or am I misunderstanding?

2) If it is a religious affirmation, why is it a good thing in the public sphere?  

3) What are actual examples where people have felt criticized or shunned for wishing someone a Merry Christmas or celebrating Christmas in a public way?  Is New York anamolous in being overdecked with Christmas (and other) icons -- have they gone away elsewhere?  

4) Do people feel that these public displays are an intrinsic part of their religious belief, or is it that they are an important _cultural _tradition?  That part confuses me too.  The religious Christians I know best are opposed to the commercialization of Christmas, viewing it as a serious religious holiday, but they are a bit eccentric.


----------



## JamesM

ElaineG said:


> And that is I've been responding to -- you didn't answer my post in response to you many posts back.


 
I'm sorry. I must have missed the post. I didn't see one directed to me from you. It could be the filter here at work which suppresses portions of this topic because of its religious content. (An interesting aside to this discussion, no?  )

I've tried to answer you on this particular post, but the filter has blocked my post. It will have to wait until later. I will try to follow up tonight or early tomorrow morning.

If you can briefly summarize the post I missed, that would help a great deal.  I will also look back through the thread when I'm at home so that I'm sure I can see everything.


----------



## cuchuflete

This is a fine example of the big earthmoving machine calling the bulldozer names.  

You may prefer tennis club cocktail lounge rules, in whispered voices, in reply to screaming, and not very thinly veiled bigotry.  

I do not.

You continued to post after what you object to, each time getting more forceful in declaring that you didn't care for the tone.   Would you have the argument conducted only by your own set of conventions?  Apparently so.   Well, as they say, that's just too bad.  There are quite a number of viewpoints and styles running around this thread, and nobody is required to adopt the one and only one that you are most comfortable with.

I sarcastically referenced the Limbaugh creature because I have listened to exactly the same crap come from his lips as was written here in bold red!    He spouts the same paranoia, the same not-so-disguised references to "they" and "them" who aren't "real Americans".   It's narrow minded filth, and the stench won't go away.  When I see it in these forums, I don't put on white gloves and hold my nose while striving to reply in the gentlest words known to human kind.

The thread I replied to in a manner more strenuous than you would have liked is full of half truths, lies, and smears.  It sounds just like Limbaugh, in tone and style and content.
If you don't believe that, go get the transcripts and compare them, word for stinking word.   
By the way, it's my country too, and I grew up in a time when
Catholics were commonly called "mackeral snappers" and much worse by other so-called Christians, when "Negoes" were treated like sub-humans without civil, or human rights, when Jews were treated to exclusions and insults, public and private, and prejudice in general was fine and dandy if practiced by the large majority.  I will not go one listing the many other groups who were disdained and disparaged by the complacent majority.  If they were even a little different, they "enjoyed" the fine American traditions whose loss is now being lamented in bold red letters.   

Guess what?  Some of it has gone underground, but there is still a lot of bigotry running loose.   So please don't cry so hard when someone points to a blatant example of it and says that it's rot.  


You are insistent:



> This is what I mean. This is not conducive to any type of discussion.


  Your own remark is conducive to ending the discussion!   If you have something to say, you have the freedom to say it, instead of whining because you don't care for the form or substance of another person's remarks.

Where do you stand on Wal-mart's preferred greeting?
Does it have anything to do with your celebration of your holiday?   What sticks in your craw, beyond the way I choose to respond to contemptible writing?  

Can you get past style and into substance?  




JamesM said:


> Well over half a dozen people were involved in the discussion before the post involving "hysteria", ElaineG, but your actual statement was:
> 
> "Could someone give me some facts, rather than hysteria, here please?"
> 
> If you can't see this as a dismissive remark towards those who disagree with you, there's not much point in pursuing a discussion about it.
> 
> There are so many assumptions being made here about what someone *must* believe if they believe that "Merry Christmas" as a greeting is somewhat suppressed in our society compared to the past that there's no room to discuss the topic itself.
> 
> As for right-wing ravings, you'll note that I didn't put it in quotes. That was intentional, to signal that they were my words, not someone else's. I figure it's an apt summing-up of this harangue, though:
> 
> "Well, I think I'll go turn on the Limbaugh program for an hour of confirmation that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, Wal-mart is a sellout to the nefarious liberal commie pinko conspiracy, and Nancy Pelosi is an agent of Satan, and I can buy a pure silk Rush Republican necktie with pretty reindeer leaning to the right while saying, "Ho ho ho! Meeeeeeery Christmas!"
> 
> This is what I mean. This is not conducive to any type of discussion.
> 
> Ironically, this bulldozer demonization of those who disagree, falsely attributing a whole boatload of opinions, thoughts, and attitudes to them because they disagree with the speaker on one point, reminds me very much of Rush Limbaugh, a detestable character, in my opinion.  I find the same tactics being employed for a different point of view have the same ugly ring to them.


----------



## cuchuflete

JamesM said:


> I get the impression that the two of you are generally in agreement that the reduction of "Merry Christmas" is a good thing, or at least not a bad thing, but you obviously have very different ways of expressing it and probably different motiviations for your position.



Where did you get that impression?  I posted what is below early in the thread.  You followed with your own post some ten minutes later, and didn't find grounds to dispute or debate what I had said.   

*I wish people a Merry Christmas if I know they celebrate Christmas.  If I don't know whether they do or not, I choose a more open-ended phrase. * That's being considerate, not ideological or PC.  *They can say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas to me, and I take it as an expression of goodwill, and don't get my knickers in a twist one way or the other. * 
[/quote]


----------



## JamesM

cuchuflete said:


> This is a fine example of the big earthmoving machine calling the bulldozer names.
> 
> You may prefer tennis club cocktail lounge rules, in whispered voices, in reply to screaming, and not very thinly veiled bigotry.
> 
> You continued to post after what you object to, each time getting more forceful in declaring that you didn't care for the tone. Would you have the argument conducted only by your own set of conventions? Apparently so. Well, as they say, that's just too bad. There are quite a number of viewpoints and styles running around this thread, and nobody is required to adopt the one and only one that you are most comfortable with.


 
I cannot dictate the type of tone of any discussion. I can express my preferences and viewpoint, just as anyone else can. I have made no demand to adopt a particular tone, cuchu. I can continue in the discussion as long as it seems worthwhile and I can leave when it doesn't. That is the extent of my control in the situation.  I do believe that discussions are not effective when they turn into screamfests, but that's just a personal belief born of personal experience. Your mileage may vary. Apparently it does.



> I sarcastically referenced the Limbaugh creature because I have listened to exactly the same crap come from his lips as was written here in bold red! He spouts the same paranoia, the same not-so-disguised references to "they" and "them" who aren't "real Americans". It's narrow minded filth, and the stench won't go away. When I see it in these forums, I don't put on white gloves and hold my nose while striving to reply in the gentlest words known to human kind.


 
Yes, but there wasn't just one person in the discussion. By spewing in the same tone the discussion gets shut down for others. That's my contention, anyway.



> The thread I replied to in a manner more strenuous than you would have liked is full of half truths, lies, and smears. It sounds just like Limbaugh, in tone and style and content.
> If you don't believe that, go get the transcripts and compare them, word for stinking word.


 
I'm familiar with Limbaugh, sorry to say. I can only handle him in short bursts, at best, but I do understand what you're saying, and I agree. I have quite a few interesting discussions with other Christians about whether or not this is a Christian country (my position is that it isn't and that that is a good thing, actually, for Christians).



> By the way, it's my country too, and I grew up in a time when
> Catholics were commonly called "mackeral snappers" and much worse by other so-called Christians, when "Negoes" were treated like sub-humans without civil, or human rights, when Jews were treated to exclusions and insults, public and private, and prejudice in general was fine and dandy if practiced by the large majority. I will not go one listing the many other groups who were disdained and disparaged by the complacent majority. If they were even a little different, they "enjoyed" the fine American traditions whose loss is now being lamented in bold red letters.


 
The problem is that the baby's being thrown out with the bathwater. from my point of view. Both you and ElaineG have lumped the expression of religion with the oppression of others. Yes, I agree that there was a time in our very recent past where the line was blurred and people did not make the distinction on a general basis. There was an assumption that the majority position was good enough for everyone. A lot of progress has been made in that area. But I think some overcorrection has occurred in certain areas, based on the same blurring of the lines by those who have made so much of the progress. 



> Guess what? Some of it has gone underground, but there is still a lot of bigotry running loose. So please don't cry so hard when someone points to a blatant example of it and says that it's rot.


 
Am I crying? I don't think so. I also don't think what you did was point out an example of it. 




> You are insistent:
> 
> Your own remark is conducive to ending the discussion! If you have something to say, you have the freedom to say it, instead of whining because you don't care for the form or substance of another person's remarks


 
I have said what I wanted to say. If you hear it as whining, there's not much I can do about that. 



> Where do you stand on Wal-mart's preferred greeting?
> Does it have anything to do with your celebration of your holiday?


 
That particular example, no. The policy that an employee should not say it, yes. 



> What sticks in your craw, beyond the way I choose to respond to contemptible writing?


 
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you honestly asking why I think we're losing something when we create an environment where people self-censor mild religious expressions in order to fit in? Or was this yet another rhetorical qestion?



> Can you get past style and into substance?


 
I think I can. Can you? I've been trying to stay on the substance of the conversation since the beginning, and I've pointed out when I think the discussion has wandered away from that topic into attacks. You may see it otherwise.

Because of the bizarre nature of the filter here at work, I cannot see all of page 3 now.  I can see page 4 and page 1, but page 4 visibility may change, depending on what words are used in subsequent posts. (It counts the number of "Questionable content" words until it reaches a score and then refuses to display the remainder of the page.)  I'll try to respond to ElaineG's questions late tonight.  I'll be happy to respond to any questions from you as well.  If the "what sticks in your craw" was sincerely a question about why I think it's not a good thing to create a chilly climate for religious expression in the public arena, I'd love to discuss that.


----------



## cuchuflete

> Both you and ElaineG have lumped the expression of religion with the oppression of others.


Kindly point out where I did this.

I first brought up bigotry in this country long, long after I had stated my rather indifferent views about Christmas greetings.

Further, I mentioned it to characterize the style of a single person.  At no point that I am aware of did I do anything near associating the expressions of religion with oppression.  I absolutely did associate bigotry with Limbaugh and someone who follows his lead, or at very least marches side by side with him.  

I share your displeasure at a company policy that tells employees how they are allowed to greet customers.  That is not sensitivity, but PC gone wild.  I think it is good for people to consider the effects of their greetings, and that, having done so, they should pick whatever words they choose, so long as these are sincere expressions of good will.    As to rote declarations in commercial settings, I can't help but wonder if these have anything at all to do with a genuine expression of good will, or a religious holiday.  Substituting "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" for a plastic "Have a nice day" really doesn't much matter, judging by the tone with which any of these are mumbled by harried clerks in mid-December. The employee should not be told which to use.



			
				JamesM said:
			
		

> I'll be happy to respond to any questions from you as well. If the "what sticks in your craw" was sincerely a question about why I think it's not a good thing to create a chilly climate for religious expression in the public arena, I'd love to discuss that.


 Yes, it was a sincere question about your viewpoints concerning "Happy Holidays" in place of "Merry Christmas".  When this started to appear as corporate policy a few (Many?) years ago, I was astonished.
I didn't see the point.  Now I can understand the intention, but still do not agree with any person being told what to say.

Those who are sincerely at ease with saying "Merry Christmas" to any and all should just go ahead and do so.  Most of the flack around this topic is in regards to business etiquette, if you will forgive the oxymoron.  Business practice has nothing to do with true holiday spirit, and even less to do with freedom of religion.  You have already given some good examples of the "chilly climate for religious expression" in another thread.  I see those examples from time to time, along with promotion of religion by the current administration.  Both are misguided and unnecessary in my view.


----------



## gaer

My point of view:

Members of a minority always know more about the majority than the majority knows about the minority. That means that the relatively small minority of non-Christians in the US will often feel left out, while those in the majority will say: "What's he big deal?"

Personally, I don't want any one to feel left out, and if that is an attack on tradition in the minds of some, pardon my not caring. This can be an incredibly painful time of year for many people. Regardless of what religion we celebrate—if any—I think most of us have painful memories of family and friends who are no longer with us.

I work with children, and I teach music. That means that I teach Christmas music. This is my standard question to my students:

Does your family celebrate Christmas, Chanukah, both or neither? What would you like to play?

I have Jewish parents who would prefer not to be involved in anything related to Christmas, and I respect their wishes.

I have Jewish parents who are comfortable with some Christmas music but who prefer not to have their children play music such as "Silent Night", "Away in the Manger", etc.

I have Jewish parents who don't care what "tunes" their children play.

Occasionally I have students whose parents are members of religions other than Christianity or Judaism. This is rather unusual in this area, but my approach is the same.

It's not at all unusual to have a mother who is Jewish and a father who is Christian, or the reverse. In most cases, the children in such families celebrate and play everything. There is no problem.

Occasionally parents are atheists and want nothing that is in any way related to any kind of religion.

When I know people are Christian, I wish them a "Merry Christmas". When I know they are Jewish and celebrate Chanukah, I wish them a "Happy Chanukah".

If I don't know what people celebrate, I wish them "Happy Holidays".

I'm typing this while enjoying our Christmas tree, which I love. The gifts underneath remind me of many happy memories, most of all from the time when I was a child.

For the record, although my family all went to church, my wife and I have no ties whatsoever to any form of organized religion.

So, to all of you who celebrate Christmas in any way, even if it is just with a tree, "Merry Christmas".

"Happy Chanukah" to all those who celebrate that holiday, including those who just like the tree and the lights. To all others, I hope you have "Happy Holidays" or "A Happy Holiday".

I suspect what I have said will seem to make no point for the simple reason that I have not insulted anyone, obviously or with barely concealed contempt. 

Gaer


----------



## cuchuflete

Gaer,

I accuse you of decency, intelligence, sensitivity and common sense.

cuchu


----------



## micafe

papillon said:


> I know, those pesky Jews and Indians making money on poor Christians. When will it stop??


 
Incredible.. I never once said the word 'Jew' or 'Indian'.. let alone 'pesky'.

You did.. I wonder why? 

I know, I said I was not going to write here anymore but frankly, this is just too much. 

And Mr. Cuchuflete, my "screaming bold" was used precisely to make legibility easier, to differentiate what I wrote from the other person's text. 

By the way, I'm not only a resident in this country. I'm a citizen. Some of you may not like it but that's the way it is. The American government thought I was good enough to become one of them. I'm privileged. 

Being touchy won't help anybody. Seeing bad things where there aren't any is not going to make you more correct or happier. Just the opposite. 

There are enough problems in today's world to make up more. Just live and let live or you're going to have a miserable life. 

As we say in Spanish: life is one, is short and is borrowed. So we need to live it the best we can without being aggressive towards our fellow human beings. Because that's what we all are, no matter what race or religion. And we all will end up in the same place when we die. Rich and poor, white and black, ugly and pretty. In a hundred years nobody will remember us.. just nobody. And to think that we wasted our years on this earth insulting others because they didn't agree with us. 

It doesn't sound very nice, does it. Not even animals do that. They usually respect their territory.

I know somebody here has the authority to delete my post. Go ahead. Nothing is going to happen to me. 

Saludos a todos.


----------



## tvdxer

tontolete said:


> I asked a friend from the US why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"...and to be honest I can't believe what he answered.
> 
> He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.
> 
> Is this true? If I want to wish my friends a Merry Christmas I can't in case I upset anyone?
> 
> So what should I say instead? Season's Greetings really doesn't mean anything to me and Happy Holidays is any holiday, isn't it?
> 
> My friend was joking, wasn't he? This can't be true...



I think he was exaggerating.  There has been a movement to replace "Christmas" with "holidays" so as not to horribly offend the 10 percent or so of Americans who do not celebrate Christmas (many non-Christians celebrate in a "secular" way), most of whom probably would not care otherwise.  (I don't think I'd be offended if somebody said "Happy Eid al Fitr" in Saudi Arabia or "Happy Diwali!" in Isndia).  

You often see this in writing.  In general speech, however, most people say "Merry Christmas" without fear of offending anybody.


----------



## gaer

tontolete said:


> I asked a friend from the US why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"...and to be honest I can't believe what he answered.
> 
> He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.
> 
> Is this true? If I want to wish my friends a Merry Christmas I can't in case I upset anyone?


This is not true. You might want to make sure that your friends are Christians before wishing them a Merry Christmas, but that's all. If anyone says that there is anything wrong with this, you are dealing with a fool or someone who has totally wrong information.


> So what should I say instead? Season's Greetings really doesn't mean anything to me and Happy Holidays is any holiday, isn't it?


Yes.


> My friend was joking, wasn't he? This can't be true...


Unfortunately, I don't know if your friend was or is joking. But s/he is wrong.

Gaer


----------



## invisibleu

tontolete said:


> I asked a friend from the US why you say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Christmas"...and to be honest I can't believe what he answered.
> 
> He told me you can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore in the States, that the word Christmas is almost forbidden and you can only say _Happy Holidays _or _Season's Greetings_.


I've only ever seen _Season's Greetings _written on Christmas cards, I can't imagine anyone saying that in a casual way where I live (in the UK). I've never personally heard anyone say "Happy Holidays" here either; if I did then it would sound more like an Americanised thing than a politically correct thing to me. (It reminds me of that annoying advert by a famous soft drinks company..."Holidays are coming, holidays are coming"... hmm, don't you mean "Christmas is coming"? You supposedly even invented the modern image of Santa Claus!).
"Happy Christmas" is still the most common way of wishing someone, erm, a pleasant yuletide in the UK. "Merry Christmas" comes next, although it sounds slightly cheesier somehow.


----------



## Swimxx2234

That is not true. We always say Merry Christmas.
If people aren't happy with it then they can just ignore you. 
There is not much of a difference between Happy and Merry
They have a simular meaning. Just to help you out!


----------



## danielfranco

Just as long as we're all on the same page: no, it's not forbidden. There is no Christmas police, or five to ten years in prison for caroling.
Now, would somebody possibly be offended for being wished a Merry Christmas?
Well, _ja_, but that has to do a lot more with them than with the well-wisher. I mean, I have never accosted anyone outside a synagogue and jumped up from behind the bushes to scream them to the ground with "Merry Christmas, you Scrooge butthole!"
I mean, there's no intentional insult in wishing "Happy Christmas" to passerbys.
And it's not like I ever felt insulted when people wish me "Happy Channkah". Can you imagine? "NOOOO, don't, please, don't!"

Anyway, Feliz Navidad.

Aw, crap, sorry if you ain't no Mexican...


----------



## MarcB

I guess I must be in a different part of the US from some of the people here. The US is not a Christian country as mentioned (separation of church and state) it is however a country with a majority of people at least nominally associated with Christianity. There is no ban on saying Merry Christmas. From long before most of us here were born happy holidays and seasons greetings have been said also. Like some of you here I say seasons greetings to people I do not know and Merry Christmas to people I know celebrate it, there is no loss to anyone and I do not even consider it an issue. Many stores say any and all of the phrases mentioned. The only limitations I see are public displays of any religion on government property where it can be considered endorsement of a religion. Historically Christians have mostly been persecuted by other so called Christians, that is why so many Europeans originally came to America. Most stores I see have more Christmas decorations than necessary. As far as I can see everyone is free to say or not say whatever they want.
By the way do people still say politically correct? I hardly ever hear it anymore in the last several years.


----------



## caballoschica

I just cannot believe how out of proportion this thread has gone!

No one is going to be thrust in jail for saying Merry Christmas.  

No one is going to be so offended that they are going to sit in a corner and cry if wished a Merry Christmas. People might just politely mention it to you that they aren't Christian.  Maybe a Christian would be offended if someone told them Happy Holidays.  That's the way it seems to be.  The Christians react and it's fodder for Limbaugh and the like to blow way out of proportion. I suppose I'm Christian (though very non-religious), I don't get offended at all with Happy Holidays.  

Again, I wish people I know that are Christmas, Merry Christmas, people I know that are Jewish, Happy Chanukah, people that are both Christian and Jewish(One of my best friends is) both Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah.  As for the others, I wish them Happy Holidays if I don't know their religion. 

I sung both Jewish, Christian, and even Kwanzaa songs in elementary school and thought absolutely nothing of it.  I thought it was cool to sing other types of carols.  

So to all of you out there since I don't know all your religions:
Happy Holidays!


----------



## .   1

micafe said:


> *blah..blah..blah..you already said it in a very subtle way.. clever ..yada..yada..yada*


I tried so hard to read your post but the large red bold font is too much for my new glasses to deal with.
May I point out to you that large red bold font is considered to be screaming and marks the poster as being of the odd opinion that yelling makes a point valid. Could you try some of your own advice and be a little subtle or clever or both. Yellers and screamers are boors.

.,,


----------



## micafe

. said:


> I tried so hard to read your post but the large red bold font is too much for my new glasses to deal with.
> May I point out to you that large red bold font is considered to be screaming and marks the poster as being of the odd opinion that yelling makes a point valid. Could you try some of your own advice and be a little subtle or clever or both. Yellers and screamers are boors.
> .,,


 
This is outrageous. I must have said something really terrible. Even someone who doesn't even have a name is angry at me. I don't remember mentioning your mother at all so I don't see why I offended you in any way. 

By the way, I didn't give that person any advice. I just made a comment. That person did insult me in a very subtle way. It's a fact, and I admire him/her for that. It was very clever... But he/she wasted his/her time because I am as American as he/she is, whether he/she likes it or not. 

What I like about all this is, I'm beginning to really know the way people are. I love understanding people's personalities even if I don't get a good opinion of them at the end. Reading things like these helps me understand why the world has become the mess it is now. 

You don't know me, whoever you are. I don't owe you an explanation but I'm going to give it to you. I did not know red bold font was considered yelling and screaming. 
I wonder why -if that's the case- they give the option of using different colors and different fonts and they even allow us to use 'screaming bold' letters. 
In fact, I was trying to make things more readable. 
I always thought the different colors were used to help people explain certain things, especially when explaining grammar rules. Apparently I made a huge mistake. However I won't apologize because I also deserve a little respect, you know. 

I was giving an opinion. I wasn't talking to anybody in particular and suddenly this person jumps on me as if I had insulted him or her. I have no idea why that person took it personally. And then somebody else was also very upset by those terrible words I said. 

And as if that wasn't enough, somebody else came and accused me of insulting people putting in my mouth -or in this case in my fingers- words I never used. 

It's incredible how agressive people can be. It wasn't their business but for some reason I became the enemy. They needed one. They had to get all their hatred out. Maybe I just said something that was true but they didn't want to hear it. 

It's not my fault if they're having problems at home or whatever is happening to them. 

And stupid me, I always thought there was freedom of speech in this country. At least that's what I learned when I was going to take my test to become an American citizen. Maybe some people haven't read the First Amendment to the Constitution. 

It's a shame because I like this country. And I like its people.. Of course you, the person without a name, are not even from the US. lol.. that makes it even more interesting. What does this have to do with you. 

I find this all very funny. It's hilarious actually and it tells me many things about people I hadn't even imagined before . We learn something new everyday. 

There's a saying in Spanish, I have no idea if there's a similar sentence in English: *"Truth hurts".* And people don't like to hear the truth. It makes them soooooooo angry and vulnerable. And they lose their temper. And they show what's inside them. And that's how the rest of the world finds out what and who they really are. A real tragedy. 

Don't worry, I won't wish any of you a Merry Christmas. I don't want to offend you. 

Maybe I can wish you a 'Happy New Year'.. or do you think people from countries where they celebrate the new year on a different day will get angry at me? Probably. Nothing can surprise me anymore. 

Maybe just 'good night' will do. (I wonder if people who work at night will get offended).


----------



## JamesM

After reviewing the thread, I find that I am unable to express what I would like to say, simply because I'm not putting it into words well. It is a frustration, but a minor one.  Perhaps it is a sign that my thinking is not clear on the subject. 

If anyone would like to PM me and discuss this further, I'll do my best to respond with something coherent. 

Elaine, I still did not find the post that I did not respond to. Sorry, I'm still missing it. If it's anything you'd like to go over with me, just drop me a PM.


----------



## gaer

ElaineG said:


> I say "Merry Christmas" to those who celebrate it, because I'm _wishing them a good time on a festive day_.


"Merry Christmas" means more than talking about a festive day to me. Each year I hope that some of the "spirit of giving" will be contagious. I hope that by some miracle whatever good there is in the day will carry over into the rest of the year. When I say "Happy Holidays", my intention is no different. Perhaps my point of view is not typical.


> 2) If it is a religious affirmation, why is it a good thing in the public sphere?


Personally, I think the idea of giving gifts is far bigger than any one religion, and potentially having one time of year that centers on the idea of giving and sharing is wonderful.

On the other hand, few (I think) would deny that businesses depend on Christmas to furnish a large percentage of their yearly profits. Personally I find that very unfortunate. It's a vicious cycle, and in my opinion the drive to make money has nothing to do with anything else than profit.


> 3) What are actual examples where people have felt criticized or shunned for wishing someone a Merry Christmas or celebrating Christmas in a public way?


I live in South Florida. I don't believe there has been any decrease in decorations of any kind. I have never known anyone who has been shunned or criticized for wishing anyone a Merry Christmas. I have also never been criticized (as far as I know) for wishing people a Happy Chanukuh, although I am not Jewish.


> Is New York anamolous in being overdecked with Christmas (and other) icons -- have they gone away elsewhere?


I see no lack of decorations of any kind where I live. 

Gaer


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## TrentinaNE

micafe said:


> And stupid me, I always thought there was freedom of speech in this country. At least that's what I learned when I was going to take my test to become an American citizen. Maybe some people haven't read the First Amendment to the Constitution.


Ciao, micafe.  For the record, the First Amendment says:


> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


So it applies to public speech, not commercial speech.  And when one voluntarily joins an organization and agrees to abide by its rules, the agreement extends to limits on speech that may be part of the rules.

Note that the amendment proscribes the government from "establishment of a religion" as well.  That seems to be the crux of much of the misunderstanding here.  In the U.S., people are free to follow the religion of their choice.  The government is supposed to be neutral.  Hence the recognition by the courts that religious symbols like "nativity scenes" are not appropriate on public space (like the plaza in front of city hall).  Again, commercial entities and private citizens can display whatever Christmas decorations they want.  (Well, within other community standards.  A public display of an elf giving Santa a Christmas blow-job probably won't pass muster, even if you worship at the Church of Sacred Sexuality.   )



> What does this have to do with you.


It's a multi-cultural forum.  People share opinions about things that happen in other countries all the time!  

Elisabetta


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## badgrammar

Wow!  This thread, like so many others lately, has really degenerated into a pissing contest.  

Please do not be offended if I skip the polemic and say that I tnd to use the "Happy Holidays" bit now, although when I was a kid I would have said Merry Christmas.  But we were basically a homogenous group where I grew up and it wasn't much of an issue. 

Being all grown up for some time now , I would not wish someone a Merry Christmas unless I was pretty darn sure they were Christian (or atleast going to celebrate Christmas".  Just like I wouldn't wish "Happy hannukah" to someone unless I was sure they were Jewish.

That said, I doubt anyone would get real upset about it if I did.  Interestingly enough, many of the muslims from North Africa who've been living in France fr a while do celebrate Christmas - but it's not a religious thing, just a gift-giving thing...


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## zebedee

This thread is closed to give people time to cool down their tempers.

I'm surprised and disappointed at the lack of so-called 'Christmas spirit' of peace, love and generosity shown by foreros here in this thread. What's got into everyone?

A very Merry Christmas to one and all.


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