# Ressentiment vs. Groll



## cperaltamartin

Hi,

I am doing a research on resentment for my PhD and Nietzsche is the main contributor to the topic. Unfortunately, I cannot speak a word in German. I have read that Nietzsche had to use the french word "ressentiment" in his Genealogy of Morals because there is not a german word for this concept. But dictionaries also mention "Groll", so I am a bit confused. 

-In common language what is the difference between Ressentiment and Groll?
-How do you say that someone is "resentful"?

I would really appreciate any help,

Cristina


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## JClaudeK

cperaltamartin said:


> -How do you say that someone is "resentful"?



Jemand ist *nachtragend/ übelnehmerisch.*


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## Fragezeichen

Well, "Groll" means the accumulation of anger, indignation and hatred within oneself which leads to bitterness. "Ressentiment" has a very similar meaning but in my opinion there is not as much emphasis on the bitterness but rather on the resulting aversion.


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## Kajjo

I am not sure, but I believe that _ressentiment (French)_ and _Ressentiment (Deutsch) _ nicht exakt dieselbe Bedeutung haben. Wie bei Lehnwörtern üblich, kann es eine gewisse Bedeutungsverschiebung gegeben haben.

Der Duden definiert so, wie ich das Wort kenne und empfinde: _auf Vorurteilen oder einem Gefühl der Unterlegenheit oder Neid beruhende gefühlsmäßige, oft unbewusste Abneigung._

Im Französischem scheint die Grundbedeutung mehr in Richtung Verbitterung und Groll zu liegen, ebenso im Englischen _resentment _und _resentfulness._

Wie Nietzsche damals das Wort wirklich gemeint hat, kann ich leider nicht sagen. Typischerweise würde ich es aber als "jemand hat Vorbehalte / Abneigungen" verstehen. Ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, welches Konzept das Deutsche hier angeblich nicht kennt.


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## cperaltamartin

JClaudeK said:


> Jemand ist *nachtragend/ übelnehmerisch.*


Thank you, JClaudeK


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## cperaltamartin

Fragezeichen said:


> Well, "Groll" means the accumulation of anger, indignation and hatred within oneself which leads to bitterness. "Ressentiment" has a very similar meaning but in my opinion there is not as much emphasis on the bitterness but rather on the resulting aversion.


Thank you, Fragezeichen


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## cperaltamartin

Kajjo said:


> I am not sure, but I believe that _ressentiment (French)_ and _Ressentiment (Deutsch) _ nicht exakt dieselbe Bedeutung haben. Wie bei Lehnwörtern üblich, kann es eine gewisse Bedeutungsverschiebung gegeben haben.
> 
> Der Duden definiert so, wie ich das Wort kenne und empfinde: _auf Vorurteilen oder einem Gefühl der Unterlegenheit oder Neid beruhende gefühlsmäßige, oft unbewusste Abneigung._
> 
> Im Französischem scheint die Grundbedeutung mehr in Richtung Verbitterung und Groll zu liegen, ebenso im Englischen _resentment _und _resentfulness._
> 
> Wie Nietzsche damals das Wort wirklich gemeint hat, kann ich leider nicht sagen. Typischerweise würde ich es aber als "jemand hat Vorbehalte / Abneigungen" verstehen. Ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, welches Konzept das Deutsche hier angeblich nicht kennt.


I am afraid I do not speak Deutsch, Kajjo. I cannot understand your answer


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## Kajjo

Sorry. That was thoughtless of me.

Please consider a possible difference in meaning between French _ressentiment _and German _Ressentiment_. The German version is more about emotional aversion or prejudice.


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## Shiratori99

Yes, I think there is no native German word with the same connotations as_ ressentiment_. However, there is the idiom _mit jemandem eine Rechnung offen haben_, which comes close imo.


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## cperaltamartin

Kajjo said:


> Sorry. That was thoughtless of me.
> 
> Please consider a possible difference in meaning between French _ressentiment _and German _Ressentiment_. The German version is more about emotional aversion or prejudice.



Ah ok. One could say that French ressentiment has a moral dimension -I feel resentful because I have been unjustly wronged- that the German one does not have. I was just wondering why Nietzsche used Ressentiment if he could have used Groll instead, if, as Fragezeichen has said, Groll also emphasizes that sense of bitterness, aversion, hatred... That is why I wanted to know how a native speaker uses them.

Thank you very much


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## cperaltamartin

Shiratori99 said:


> Yes, I think there is no native German word with the same connotations as_ ressentiment_. However, there is the idiom _mit jemandem eine Rechnung offen haben_, which comes close imo.


 Thank you, Shiratori!


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## merquiades

Kajjo said:


> Sorry. That was thoughtless of me.
> 
> Please consider a possible difference in meaning between French _ressentiment _and German _Ressentiment_. The German version is more about emotional aversion or prejudice.


@Kajjo , Just to say I think from what you have explained the German and the French meanings are the same:  to harbor ill feelings towards someone and suffer because of this.  There is a lot of hurt, frustration and pain here but no hatred and not really a desire for revenge either. But that part is not clear. Literally _re+sentir_ means to feel something repeatedly, over and over.

Edit:  Judging by the definitions of G_roll_, it would seem like the connotation is more offensive and proactive:  with animosity, revenge, spite and grudge a key component of it.  The emphasis is not just on the hurt or frustration you harbor.


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I feel "Ressentiment" in German does not neccessary include suffer plain hurt and pain, but psychological one - prejudice caused by helplessness and powerlessness.
The word is seldom now, so there may be different meaning variations depending on context.

Ressentiment gegen Ausländer = aversion (mostly based on prejudice) against foreigners 

Here you can find different translations:
http://www.dict.cc/?s=resentful
nachtragend, gereizt, aufgebracht, verärgert, gekränkt, verbittert, giftig, reizbar etc.

Groll does not include prejudice but anger and bitterness as others described before.


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## merquiades

Hutschi said:


> Hi,
> I feel "Ressentiment" in German does not neccessary include suffer plain hurt and pain, but psychological one - prejudice caused by helplessness and powerlessness.
> The word is seldom now, so there may be different meaning variations depending on context.
> 
> Ressentiment gegen Ausländer = aversion (mostly based on prejudice) against foreigners
> 
> Here you can find different translations:
> http://www.dict.cc/?s=resentful
> nachtragend, gereizt, aufgebracht, verärgert, gekränkt, verbittert, giftig, reizbar etc.
> 
> Groll does not include prejudice but anger and bitterness as others described before.


Interesting.  I just remembered it can be used like that in English too.  Resentment towards foreigners.  I resent foreigners being here.
It's all "kind of" similar, the sense of helplessness and frustration goes on to mean hatred and prejudice.

This page may also give some interesting translations in context.


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## Hutschi

Ressentiment (German) is weaker than hatred (Hass) in this context. But there is only a step.


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## merquiades

Hutschi said:


> Ressentiment (German) is weaker than hatred (Hass) in this context. But there is only a step.


Agreed.  I think Nietzsche probably used _Ressentiment_ rather than _Groll_ because he wanted to emphasize the hard-feelings and suffering. I would have to read his work to know.


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## Fragezeichen

Well, here is the definition of "Groll" from Duden.de:

"heimliche, eingewurzelte Feindschaft oder verborgener Hass, zurückgestauter Unwille, der durch innere oder äußere Widerstände daran gehindert ist, sich nach außen zu entladen, und Verbitterung hervorruft"

"hidden, ingrained hostility or concealed hatred, restrained indignation, that is inhibited to manifest itself due to inner or outer opposition and causes bitterness"

duden.*de/rechtschreibung/Groll


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## cperaltamartin

When Hutschi mentioned that sense of impotence or helplessness to make your anger count, I though that this was going to be the key aspect to distinguish Ressentiment from Groll.  
But given that last definition of Groll  ("hidden, ingrained hostility or concealed hatred, restrained indignation, that is inhibited to manifest itself due to inner or outer opposition and causes bitterness"), I cannot see any difference again...

Both are:
-hard, negative emotions (physical and psychological).
-seek for revenge or retribution. 
-cannot be freely expressed because of external or internal causes.

Thank you all


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## Hutschi

Hi, I think "Groll" includes some onomatopoetic. (Compare: Donnergrollen - roll of thunder)
It remains inside but is just one step away from blaze of anger. And it is permanent for some time.
It is much more intuitive than Ressentiment, Ressentiment is more influenced from reasoning. It is activated basically when you think about the person you have ressentiments against, for example.


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## cperaltamartin

That is very interesting. Thank you


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## JClaudeK

*Ranküne* = "*rancour*" is given as a synonyme for "Ressentiment"
https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Groll



> a feeling of hate and continuing anger *about something in the past**:
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/rancour



"*rancour*" seems very close to "Groll" for me.
*"in the past" is important for the meaning of "Groll".


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I do not know "Ranküne". May be it is dated or regional. Does anybody know the status of it?


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## manfy

I've never heard it either! Wiki calls it "_gehoben, *veraltend*_" (highlighting by me)

It's definitely not an everyday word!


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## JClaudeK

> Ranküne
> _gehoben, veraltend_ Groll, heimliche Feindschaft, Rachsucht, Gehässigkeit
> http://www.dwds.de/?qu=Ranküne



Yes, it is dated (=veraltend) and elevated (=gehoben).
But Nietzsche isn't a contemporary. 

Anyway, the important thing (for me) is  the meaning of  "rancour".


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## fdb

Since this started off as a question about Nietzsche someone might wish to chase up the references here: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/suche?q=ressentiment
He obviously used it a lot.


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## Kajjo

Danke für den Link zu Spiegel-Gutenberg. Ich habe einige Stellen gelesen und bin zu dem Schluss gekommen, dass Nietzsche hier ziemlich eindeutig _Ressentiment_ im Sinne von "Ablehnung und Abneigung aus einem Gefühl der Unterlegenheit heraus" meint. Nietzsche lehnt Ressentiment ab und verwendet das Wort als Begriff des Klassenkampfs, für seine gedankliche Gegenseite "des Pöbels", empfindet seine Ressentiments als schwach, unwissend und ohnmächtig.

Heutzutage würde er aber möglicherweise in einigen Situationen das Modewort "Vorurteile" verwenden und von Neid und Abneigungen sprechen.


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## Schlabberlatz

Among the references (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/suche?q=ressentiment) there is an essay by one Theodor Lessing (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/nietzsche-7707/9), who writes: "Behind all the values of the Christian millennia – which also means: behind the social ethics of Europe in their entirety – he is to seek out the crumpled feelings towards life of those who have come out badly, the neediness of the masses of people and of the people of the masses. It is the victory of the frustrated will to power; it is the will to power of countless frustrated people. Nietzsche’s second main term – which has since been robbed of its core and is now commonly misused – helps in this seeking out of feelings and motives; it is this term: Rückschlagsgefühl ["backlash-feeling"] (Ressentiment). To him, backlash-emotions are all excitations in life that do not directly come from a free character and from one’s own actions, but rather from a powerlessness that is crowded back into itself, a powerlessness that – in order to be able to heal up, to save, to justify, or to revenge – has to live, to live out, to realize indirectly and round the back."


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## cperaltamartin

Schlabberlatz said:


> Among the references (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/suche?q=ressentiment) there is an essay by one Theodor Lessing (http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/nietzsche-7707/9), who writes: "Behind all the values of the Christian millennia – which also means: behind the social ethics of Europe in their entirety – he is to seek out the crumpled feelings towards life of those who have come out badly, the neediness of the masses of people and of the people of the masses. It is the victory of the frustrated will to power; it is the will to power of countless frustrated people. Nietzsche’s second main term – which has since been robbed of its core and is now commonly misused – helps in this seeking out of feelings and motives; it is this term: Rückschlagsgefühl ["backlash-feeling"] (Ressentiment). To him, backlash-emotions are all excitations in life that do not directly come from a free character and from one’s own actions, but rather from a powerlessness that is crowded back into itself, a powerlessness that – in order to be able to heal up, to save, to justify, or to revenge – has to live, to live out, to realize indirectly and round the back."



Thank you very much Schlabberlatz. that makes a lot of sense! thank you


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