# Urdu-Hindi: Past tense construction to depict future



## Qureshpor

This thread is a continuation from the closed thread whose link is given below.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2386867&highlight=past+for+future

In this thread I have argued that in Urdu, a form that in appearance resembles a past tense, can in fact give future meaning. A number of examples were provided there. Urdu speakers agreed that this formation exists in Urdu but most Hindi speakers were of the view that this type of sentence is wrong.

Today, I was watching a short Youtube video (1.22 minutes) in which Imran Khan was speaking. At 1.07 there is a caption in Urdu which says...

jis din Supreme Court ne 4 HalqoN kii *tasdiiq karvaa'ii*, taariixii dhaaNdlii saamne aa'e gii.

The day Supreme Court *verifies/will verify *the four constituencies, a historical rigging will come to light.

Fortunately, we have several new arrivals to the Forum from Hindi speaking background. It would be good if they are able to take a quick look at the linked thread and offer their views here. Is the sentence quoted in this thread correct as far as Hindi grammar is concerned.


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## Dib

I am not well-acquainted with formal Hindi grammar, but I do hear this kind of usage in the spoken language. Perfectly fine by me.

EDIT: By "formal", I meant "prescriptive".


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> I am not well-acquainted with formal Hindi grammar, but I do hear this kind of usage in the spoken language. Perfectly fine by me.


Thank you. Hopefully we'll get more responses from Hindi speakers.


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## littlepond

I think it'd be good that the moderators either reopen that thread or close this thread as well. There are several good points made there by greatbear jii, so it's not worthwhile to go over them again. The sentence in the OP of this particular thread looks fine, but is it of the same genre as the sentences quoted from Alfaaz jii's post in the original thread is very much doubtful to me.


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## Qureshpor

littlepond said:


> I think it'd be good that the moderators either reopen that thread or close this thread as well. There are several good points made there by greatbear jii, so it's not worthwhile to go over them again. The sentence in the OP of this particular thread looks fine, but is it of the same genre as the sentences quoted from Alfaaz jii's post in the original thread is very much doubtful to me.


I think it is best if this decision is left with the moderators.

I believe the sentence quoted in my opening post and the sentences quoted from Alfaaz SaaHib in the opening post of the linked thread are the same so far as the use of past tense in the first clause and future tense in the second clause is concerned. If you don't agree with this, that's fine.


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> In this thread I have argued that in Urdu, a form that in appearance resembles a past tense, can in fact give future meaning. A number of examples were provided there. Urdu speakers agreed that this formation exists in Urdu but most Hindi speakers were of the view that this type of sentence is wrong.
> [...]
> jis din Supreme Court ne 4 HalqoN kii *tasdiiq karvaa'ii*, taariixii dhaaNdlii saamne aa'e gii.
> [...]
> Is the sentence quoted in this thread correct as far as Hindi grammar is concerned.


According to Hindi grammar, a past tense can give future meaning:

(1) कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 168 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 168):

One of the usages of the simple past tense is an action that will occur in the near future:

तुम चलो, मैं *आया*। (tum chalo, maiN *aayaa*.)



(2) कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 222 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 222):

The simple past tense can give future meaning in conditional sentences:

अगर आपने मुझे *बुलाया*, तो मैं आऊँगा। (agar aap ne mujhe *bulaayaa*, to maiN aa'uuNgaa.)

यदि मैं अमरिका *गई*, तो आपके पास जर्मनी में रुकूँगी। (yadi maiN America *ga'ii*, to aap ke paas Germany meN rukuuNgii.)

अगर तुम वर्षा में *भीगे*, तो बीमार हो जाओगे। (agar tum varshaa meN *bhiige*, to biimaar ho jaa'oge.)


--------------------------------


According to Hindi grammar, in using "जैसे ही"(jaise hii), both verbs should be used in same tense:
It means:
<"jaise hii" + past tense, ...past tense> ; like third example (III)
<"jaise hii" + present tense, ...present tense> ; like first example (I)
<"jaise hii" + future tense, ...future tense> ; like fourth example (IV)

कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 238 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 238):

(I) जैसे ही मुझे समय मिलता है, मैं हिंदी सीखता हूँ। (jaise hii mujhe samay miltaa hai, maiN hindii siikhtaa huuN.)

(II) जैसे ही पिता जी घर से निकलते थे, बच्चे खेलने लगते थे। (jaise hii pitaa jii ghar se nikalte the, bachche khelne lagte the.)

(III) जैसे ही वह तैयार हुआ, हम चल पड़े। (jaise hii vo tayyaar hu'aa, ham chal paRe.)

(IV) जैसे ही हम नया घर ख़रीदेंगे, आप सब को दावत देंगे। (jaise hii ham nayaa ghar xariideNge, aap sab ko daavat (da3vat) deNge.)


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## Qureshpor

^
Thank you for your quoting from Kavita Kumar’s grammar book. May I ask if she has acknowledged the sources, if any, that she has resorted to in writing her grammar book?

The example you have given “tum chalo maiN aayaa” has already been mentioned by me in the linked thread, Urdu-Hindi: Past tense construction to depict future. As for the use of past tense for future in conditional sentences, our Hindi speaking friends do not have a problem with it. So, we need not bring this construction into the discussion even though in my view the use of past tense in the first clause to depict future is independent of “agar”, “jab”, “jaise hii”, “jyuuN hii” etc. 

I can’t quite understand what is so unique about “jaise hii” that its presence compels the verb to be in the same form in both the clauses. What logic does Kavita Kumar base her claim on?

I am grateful to you for your no doubt time consuming research and coming up with quotes from Kavita Kumar’s book. But the quote most relevant to this thread is no. III but even this translates into two past tense clauses.

(III) जैसे ही वह तैयार हुआ, हम चल पड़े। (jaise hii vo tayyaar hu'aa, ham chal paRe.)

As soon as he was ready, we set off.

So, in terms of our discussion, we don’t seem to have moved forward.


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## marrish

I think I have found a written instance in Hindi of *past* tense *following* _jaise hii_ which clearly expresses *the future*, just as it is used in Urdu. I'm quoting a larger context, here we go:

इस शरीर को *जैसे ही* तुमने ज्ञान *दिया*। इस शरीर में कब तक *रहेगा* जब तक ये शरीर है। *जहाँ ये शरीर बंद हुआ और अगले जन्म में दूसरा शरीर मिला, तब सब कुछ सफाचट मिलेगा कुछ भी नहीं मिलेगा।* उसको मेमोरी ही नहीं है तो कहाँ से आयेगा, उसके पास, बस ऐसे ही तो हमने किया। (a certain Vivek Jha, N. Delhi)

_is shariir ko *jaise hii* tumne gyaan *diyaa*, is shariir meN kab tak *rahegaa* jab tak ye shariir hai. *jahaaN ye shariir baNd huaa aur agle janm meN duusraa shariir milaa , tab sab kuchh safaachaT milegaa, kuchh bhii nahiiN milegaa*. usko 'memory' hii nahiiN hai to kahaaN se aayegaa, uske paas, bas aise hii to hamne kiyaa.

_Another one: (comment by one Anup Shukla)

पंकज चिंता न करो *जैसे ही मौका मिला तो तुम्हारे साथ भी इंसाफ होगा*.तब नहीं रोक पायेंगे तुम्हारे मित्र. 
_Pankaj chintaa na karo *jaise hii maukaa milaa to tumhaare saath bhii insaaf hogaa.* tab nahiiN rok paayeNge tumhaare mitr.

_And this one:
दुकान वाला बोला आजाओ काम करने को काम करने वालो की में क़द्र करता हु समीर ने कहा *जैसे ही मौका मिला भाग के आजाऊंगा*... 
_dukaan vaalaa bolaa aajaao kaam karne ko kaam karne vaaloN kii meN qadr kartaa huuN, Samiir ne kahaa *jaise hii maukaa milaa bhaag ke aajaauuNgaa*... _(Shanti Purohit)

And here:

लेकिन *जैसे ही* समय *मिला* तो अपना बोरी बिस्तर उठाकर हिमालय भ्रमण में लम्बी पद यात्रा पर *निकल जाऊँगा*।_ lekin *jaise hii* samay *milaa* to apnaa borii bistar uThaakar himaalay bhramaNR meN lambii pad-yaatraa par *nikal jaauuNgaa*. _(Sandeep Panwar, N. Delhi)

Here too:

हाल ही में हुई एक बातचीत में फरहत ने बताया कि *जैसे ही* मौका *मिला* वे एक बार फिर इस शहर में *आना चाहेंगे*. _haal hii meN huii ek baatchiit meN Farhat ne bataayaa ki *jaise hii* maukaa *milaa* ve ek baar phir is shahr meN *aanaa chaaheNge*. _(Kumar Mukesh, Kaithal)

How about this: 

*जिस दिन* पता *चला* तो चौपाल पर नहीं *दिखूंगा*. _*jis din* pataa* chalaa* to chaupaal par nahiiN *dikhuuNgaa*_. (a forum)

This sentence, although in the second clause there is no explicit future tense, is also about future:

*जिस दिन* समय* मिला* सब कुछ कर लेना *चाहता हूँ *|_*jis din* samay *milaa* sab kuchh kar lenaa *chaahtaa huuN*. _(comment by Shankar Phulara, Delhi/Uttarakhand).

Finally, the sentence below, however not being exactly representative of future expression by a past tense, it still seems to be an example of going against the grammar rule of the same tense after _"jaise hii""
_
*जैसे ही *मौका *मिला*, ये घोटाले को *अंजाम दे डालते हैं*। _jaise hii maukaa *milaa*, ye ghoTaale ko *anjaam de* *Daalte haiN*. _(Ravikant Prasad, Muzaffarpur)

And this one: 

इन खबरों से ऊब कर वीरू ने जैसे ही टीवी बंद करने के [?लिए] रिमोट *उठाया* तो एक चैनल पर ब्रेकिंग न्‍यूज *आ रही थी* कि वैज्ञानिकों ने दावा किया है कि उन्‍हें चांद पर पानी मिल गया है। 
_in khabroN se uub kar Viiruu ne *jaise hii* TV band karne ke [?li'e] rimoT [remote] *uThaayaa* to ek chainal (channel) par breking nyuuz [breaking news] *aa rahii thii* ki vaigyaanikoN ne daavaa kiyaa hai ki unheN chaaNd par paanii mil gayaa hai. _(Himanshu, Agra).

[I transcribed फ as [f] when applicable even if there was no dot].


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> May I ask if she has acknowledged the sources, if any, that she has resorted to in writing her grammar book?


unfortunately koii source diyaa nahiiN gayaa hai.



Qureshpor said:


> I can’t quite understand what is so unique about “jaise hii” that its presence compels the verb to be in the same form in both the clauses. What logic does Kavita Kumar base her claim on?



maiN bhii is kii vajah jaannaa chaahtii huuN (agar koii vajah ho to), par kavitaa kumaar ne vajah ke baare meN kuchh nahiiN likhaa hai.



Qureshpor said:


> I am grateful to you for your no doubt time consuming research and coming up with quotes from Kavita Kumar’s book. But the quote most relevant to this thread is no. III but even this translates into two past tense clauses.


aap kii baat sahiih hai, par grammar kii kitaaboN meN DhuuNDte DhuuNDte itnaa hii milaa.



Qureshpor said:


> So, in terms of our discussion, we don’t seem to have moved forward.


bilkul sahiih farmaate haiN aap.
agar is mauzuu3 ke baare meN mujhe duusrii kitaaboN meN kuchh aur milaa to zaruur yahaaN likh duuNgii.

grammar kii baat karnii hai, isii liye mujhe yuuN hii apnii taraf se kuchh likhnaa munaasib nahiiN lagtaa.


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## sapnachaandni

marrish jii, hindii misaaleN likhne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa.


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## Qureshpor

sapnachaandni said:


> marrish jii, hindii misaaleN likhne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa.


kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle durust the? saath hii yih kahnaa durust nahiiN ho gaa kih Hindi-bhaashii isii tarH bolte haiN varnah vuh aisaa kyoN likh rahe haiN? aur agar vuh is tarH nahiiN bolte to in sab likhne vaaloN ne Ghalat grammar meN likhaa hai.

 vaise to tonyspeed SaaHib pahle bhii ek misaal de chuke haiN jo nah jaane kyoN radd kar dii ga'ii thii. lekin ab to marrish SaaHib ne muuslaa-dhaar baarish kii tarH hamaare liye misaal par misaal barsaa dii hai!

natiijah yih hu'aa kih # post7 ke bar-3aks xaatir-xvaah pesh-raft hu'ii hai.


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## Qureshpor

# post 8. marrish SaaHib, maiN aap kii kaavish par # post 11 meN izhaar kar chukaa huuN. yaqiin-an aap shukriyah ke mustaHiqq haiN aur ham sab aap ke iHsaan-mand haiN. kyaa yih mumkin hai kih har jumle ke saath aap net kaa rabt bhii faraaham kar deN. is se har ko'ii us jumle kaa mukammal siyaaq-o-sibaaq dekh sake gaa aur saath hii shaayad likhne vaale kaa naam bhii jaan sake gaa.


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle durust the? saath hii yih kahnaa durust nahiiN ho gaa kih Hindi-bhaashii isii tarH bolte haiN varnah vuh aisaa kyoN likh rahe haiN? aur agar vuh is tarH nahiiN bolte to in sab likhne vaaloN ne Ghalat grammar meN likhaa hai.
> 
> vaise to tonyspeed SaaHib pahle bhii ek misaal de chuke haiN jo nah jaane kyoN radd kar dii ga'ii thii. lekin ab to marrish SaaHib ne muuslaa-dhaar baarish kii tarH hamaare liye misaal par misaal barsaa dii hai!
> 
> natiijah yih hu'aa kih # post7 ke bar-3aks xaatir-xvaah pesh-raft hu'ii hai.


maiN aap se ittifaaq kartii huuN, par agar ye bhii maaluum ho jaa'e ki kyaa grammarian logoN ne is baat kaa zikr kiyaa hai ki nahiiN, to aur achchhaa hai.


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## Qureshpor

^ yih bhii ma3luum ho jaa'e gaa kih "grammarian-oN" ne kyaa likhaa hai. kahte haiN sabr kaa phal miiThaa hotaa hai! 

aap kii nazar meN sab se puraane aur afzal Hindi grammarian kaun-kaun haiN? un kii kitaaboN meN dekhne kii zaruurat hai.


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> marrish jii, hindii misaaleN likhne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa.





Qureshpor said:


> # post 8. marrish SaaHib, maiN aap kii kaavish par # post 11 meN izhaar kar chukaa huuN. yaqiin-an aap shukriyah ke mustaHiqq haiN aur ham sab aap ke iHsaan-mand haiN. kyaa yih mumkin hai kih har jumle ke saath aap net kaa rabt bhii faraaham kar deN. is se har ko'ii us jumle kaa mukammal siyaaq-o-sibaaq dekh sake gaa aur saath hii shaayad likhne vaale kaa naam bhii jaan sake gaa.


You are welcome, I am glad myself that some progress has been made! What I needed was some inspiration and a weekend off. sapnachaandnii jii, _yih misaaleN merii likhii hu'ii nahiiN haiN balkih duusre hindii bolne waaloN ke haathoN kii haiN. haaN ek aadh ko mujhe na'e sire se Taa'ip karnaa paRaa._
QP SaaHib, it has taken too long to come up with any examples so I don't think I should be thanked for it. Someone should have done it many months before. I have edited the post, added links and author's names and locations and one more example at the end.


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## sapnachaandni

marrish said:


> sapnachaandnii jii, _yih misaaleN merii likhii hu'ii nahiiN haiN balkih duusre hindii bolne waaloN ke haathoN kii haiN. haaN ek aadh ko mujhe na'e sire se Taa'ip karnaa paRaa._


jaantii huuN marrish jii, yahaaN un kaa zikr karne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> *kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle durust the? *saath hii yih kahnaa durust nahiiN ho gaa kih Hindi-bhaashii isii tarH bolte haiN varnah vuh aisaa kyoN likh rahe haiN? aur agar vuh is tarH nahiiN bolte to in sab likhne vaaloN ne Ghalat grammar meN likhaa hai.[...]


mere xayaal meN in misaaloN kaa Alfaaz SaaHib ke likhe ga'e jumloN ko durust yaa Ghalat saabit karne se ko'ii bhii ta3alluq nahiiN hae aur yih isliye kih Alfaaz SaaHib ne apne jumle urduu meN hii likh diye the jabkih merii faraaham kardah misaaleN hindii kii haiN. agar Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumloN kii taHqiiq karnaa ho to aa'iye urduu kii kuchh misaaleN faraaham kar diijiye gaa. baaqii jahaaN tak hindii kaa ta3alluq hae - xwaah jinhoN ne tasdiiq kii thii kih sun_ne meN aisii misaaleN hiNdii meN 3aam murawwaj hotii haiN vuh xud hindii-go nahiiN the phir bhii un kii raa'e aksariyyat meN thii. bas itnii mushkil rahii thii kih aisii misaaleN talaash karnaa kaafii dushwaar hae aur kal tak hamaare saamne baHs karne ke liye kaafii mawaad nahiiN the. ab mere haath jo kuchh aisii misaaleN lag hii ga'iiN yih da3wah karnaa be-faa'idah ho gaa kih hindii meN is tarH kii tarkiibeN naa-paid haiN. yih kahnaa Haqiiqat ke bar-3aks ho gaa.

maiN nahiiN samajhtaa kih yih grammar ke liHaaz se Ghalat hoN gii. yih mumkin hae kih shaayad jumle kii is tarH kii saaxt hindii meN ziyaadah musta3mal nah hotii ho, nahiiN to kam az kam likhne meN yih ziyaadah nah paa'ii jaatii ho, magar jabkih bolne meN (aur likhne meN bhii) aise jumle maujuud hii haiN aur yih taur-tariiqah sab ko to Ghalat nahiiN lagtaa, yih mas'alah Ghaalib_an grammar waaloN kii nazaroN se chhupaa rah gayaa thaa. aaxir meN to nah isii laRii meN nah hii pichchhlii meN urduu grammar kaa ise tasdiiq karne waalaa Hawaalah pesh aayaa. janaab-e-QP SaaHib, aap ne afzal hindii grammaroN kaa zikr kiyaa hae - vuh kaun kaun sii haiN is kaa mujhe 3ilm nahiiN magar kyaa jadiid-tariin kitaabeN ziyaadah kaam nahiiN aa'eN gii?


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## Qureshpor

^ 
pahlaa para.

aap ba-jaa farmaa rahe haiN. mujhe chaahiye thaa likhnaa..

_kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle Hindi meN bhii durust gine jaate haiN?

_duusraa para

sapnaachaandii se us savaal ke piichhe ek xaas Hikmat-i-3amalii thii. lekin unhoN ne ko'ii javaab hii nahiiN diyaa..so vuh vahiiN dharii kii dharii rah ga'ii!


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## marrish

_mere nazdiik maiN ne ko'ii aisii baat nahiiN kahii jis se sapnachaandnii SaaHibah ko raa'e zanii meN diqqat pesh aa sake, maiN ne to dar-asl ba-jaa'e aap ke sawaal kaa jawaab dene ke aap se 3arz kiyaa thaa kih is se pahle kih hindii grammar kii kitaaboN kii xaak chaanii jaa'e aise jumloN kii urduu grammar kii kitaaboN meN se Hawaalah pesh kiyaa jaa'e._


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> aap kii nazar meN sab se puraane aur afzal Hindi grammarian kaun-kaun haiN? un kii kitaaboN meN dekhne kii zaruurat hai.


afzal kaun-kaun haiN, ye kahnaa mushkil hai. 

har kitaab kii ek xuubii hotii hai, misaal ke taur par classification ke hisaab se, kavitaa kumaar kii "हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण" bahut achchhii hai. par kabhii-kabhii inhoN ne kam vazaahat kii hai. 

Dr. hardev baahrii kii "व्यावहारिक हिंदी व्याकरण तथा रचना" bhii bahut achchhii kitaab hai. achchhii vazaahateN miltii haiN is meN, par sabhii baateN is meN shaamil nahiiN kii ga'ii haiN.

kaamtaaprasaad guru kii "हिंदी व्याकरण" kii kuchh fasleN bhii achchhii haiN, par ye bhii mukammal nahiiN hai.

mujhe do aur kitaaboN kaa ilm bhii hai, par un meN koii xaas baat nahiiN hai.

in kitaaboN meN se kaamtaaprasaad guru kii "हिंदी व्याकरण" puraanii hai, par Dr. hardev baahrii aur kavitaa kumaar kii kitaabeN na'ii haiN.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> [...]maiN nahiiN samajhtaa kih yih grammar ke liHaaz se Ghalat hoN gii. yih mumkin hae kih shaayad jumle kii is tarH kii saaxt hindii meN ziyaadah musta3mal nah hotii ho, nahiiN to kam az kam likhne meN yih ziyaadah nah paa'ii jaatii ho, magar jabkih bolne meN (aur likhne meN bhii) aise jumle maujuud hii haiN aur yih taur-tariiqah sab ko to Ghalat nahiiN lagtaa, yih mas'alah Ghaalib_an grammar waaloN kii nazaroN se chhupaa rah gayaa thaa. aaxir meN to nah isii laRii meN nah hii pichchhlii meN urduu grammar kaa ise tasdiiq karne waalaa Hawaalah pesh aayaa. janaab-e-QP SaaHib, aap ne afzal hindii grammaroN kaa zikr kiyaa hae - vuh kaun kaun sii haiN is kaa mujhe 3ilm nahiiN magar kyaa jadiid-tariin kitaabeN ziyaadah kaam nahiiN aa'eN gii?


Qavaa'id-i-Urdu, Maulana Abdul Haq-1914 (pp 262-263)

"maazii mutlaq aise fi3l ko zaahir kartii hai jo zamaanah-i-guzashtah meN bilaa ta3ayyun-i-vaqt hu'aa magar 3alaavah is ke. muHaavare meN ba3z duusre maqaamaat par bhii isti3maal hotii hai, masal-an bajaa'e mustaqbil.

vuh aayaa aur maiN chalaa. (jis vaqt vuh aa'e gaa maiN chal duuN gaa ya3nii us ke aate hii chal duuN gaa)..."


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## marrish

Thank you so much. It is enough for me in order to be reassured that this manner of saying things is nothing new and not under English influence, as suggested once in the previous thread No. 1.


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## Qureshpor

sapnachaandni said:


> maiN aap se ittifaaq kartii huuN, par agar ye bhii maaluum ho jaa'e ki kyaa grammarian logoN ne is baat kaa zikr kiyaa hai ki nahiiN, to aur achchhaa hai.


Kellogs dvaaraa likhii "A Grammar of the Hindi Language" (1876) meN yah vaakya hai. (pannaa 331)

  jis ne sansaar meN aa’e tumhaaraa naam nah *liyaa *tis ne amrit chhoR vish *piyaa*

From "Hindi Grammar" by Edwin Greaves (1896/1921) p 278

yadi kahiiN mil bhii *gayaa* to binaa bhakti sthir nahiiN rahtaa

aur jab aisaa mat *hu'aa* to agyaan aa hii *gayaa*


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## Qureshpor

Here is a couplet from Miir Taqi Miir (1723-1810)

عشق ہمارے خیال پڑا ہے خواب گیا آرام گیا 
جی کا جانا ٹھہر گیا ہے صبح گیا یا شام گیا 

3ishq hamaare xayaal paRaa hai xvaab gayaa aaraam gayaa 
jii kaa jaanaa Thahar gayaa hai subH gayaa yaa shaam gayaa 

Engrossed is my mind with love; sleep is no more, comfort has gone
The heart is waiting to go; it will be gone in the evening or at dawn


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## marrish

My gratitude for this clear-cut example of past for future, from this author especially.


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## marrish

An example I've just heard on Urdu news is کہ اب تھوڑی دیر میں یا اگلے دن تک سعودی گورنمنٹ اِس کے متعلق ایک بیان دینے لگی ہے کہ اُس کی موت حادثاتی طور پہ ہو گئی۔ _kih ab thoRii der meN yaa agle din tak sa3uudii gavarnminT is ke muta3alliq ek *bayaan dene **lagii hae** kih us ki maut Hadisaatii taur pih ho ga'ii_. There can be no confusion about it standing here for future and it is not a conditional sentence.

*It's not clear to me up to which degree it can be classified as a 'past tense construction'... because it's referred to as 'present perfect', but it is in perfect mood and it is noteworthy.


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## Qureshpor

"کہ اب تھوڑی دیر میں یا اگلے دن تک سعودی گورنمنٹ اِس کے متعلق ایک بیان دینے لگی ہے کہ اُس کی موت حادثاتی طور پہ ہو گئی۔

_kih ab thoRii der meN yaa agle din tak sa3uudii gavarnminT is ke muta3alliq ek *bayaan dene lagii hae** kih us ki maut Hadisaatii taur pih ho ga'ii_."

I would suggest that "ek bayaan dene lagii hai" would translate to "is about to make a statement". I would further dare to put forward a stance that this construction is possibly Punjabi influenced. We would normally expect "ek bayaan dene vaalii hai".


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Here is a couplet from Miir Taqi Miir (1723-1810)
> 
> عشق ہمارے خیال پڑا ہے خواب گیا آرام گیا
> جی کا جانا ٹھہر گیا ہے صبح گیا یا شام گیا
> 
> 3ishq hamaare xayaal paRaa hai xvaab gayaa aaraam gayaa
> jii kaa jaanaa Thahar gayaa hai subH gayaa yaa shaam gayaa
> 
> Engrossed is my mind with love; sleep is no more, comfort has gone
> The heart is waiting to go; it will be gone in the evening or at dawn


A better translation might be...

Engrossed is my mind with love; sleep is no more, comfort has gone
Life's ending is inevitable, whether it goes in the evening or at dawn


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> A better translation might be...
> 
> Engrossed is my mind with love; sleep is no more, comfort has gone
> Life's ending is inevitable, whether it goes in the evening or at dawn


Both translations are very good but they differ on the approach to our subject matter, "past for future". There's also a slight difference in interpretation. 

What about the following attempt to illustrate the Urdu &/Hindi point of grammar by means of the English language? Would that be comprehensible (anyone?)

By love, have my thoughts been ruptured,.sleep left me and my peace is gone 
My soul has been scheduled for departure, at dawn or the day's end it's gone


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## Qureshpor

Here are a couple of ash3aar from one of Ghalib's most celebrated Ghazals. The second shi3r illustrates the use of past for future.

sab kahaaN kuchh laalah-o-gul meN numaayaaN ho ga'iiN
xaak meN kyaa suurateN hoN gii kih pinhaaN ho ga'iiN

Not all, some have manifested themselves in the form of tulip and rose
There are many many such beloveds who became hidden in the dust

ham muvaHHid haiN, hamaaraa kesh hai tark-i-rusuum
millateN jab *miT ga'iiN*, ajzaa-i-iimaaN *ho ga'iiN*

I am a unitarian, my faith is the abandonment of doctrines and practices
As different creeds are* erased*, *they will become* members of one faith


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