# Spanish -mbre / -mbra < Latin -mine / -mina



## istenaldja

Would someone please tell me other examples for this?:

Spanish hambre < Latin famine ’hunger, hungry’
Spanish hombre < Latin homine- ’man, male’
Spanish hembra < Latin fēmina ’woman, female’

And examples, where there is no such development:

[Spanish *dombre] < Latin domine ’lord’


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## ahvalj

_Domine_ was the Vocative Singular, which was never inherited. _Dominus_ regularly gave _dueño,_ the allegro form gave _don.

Rhymes:Spanish/ambɾe - Wiktionary_
*_exāminem>enjambre, *stāminem>estambre

Rhymes:Spanish/imbɾe - Wiktionary
*vīminem>mimbre

Rhymes:Spanish/ombɾe - Wiktionary
*nōminem>nombre

Rhymes:Spanish/umbɾe - Wiktionary
*alūminem>alumbre, *culminem>cumbre, *lūminem>lumbre

_


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## Penyafort

As Ahvalj says, there is no _dombre _because the word _dueño _comes from _dominu_, not from _domine_. Same thing with _sueño_.

Those links are good but about rhymes and therefore show some words that are not even Latin in origin. The common ones for what you ask would be: (I compare them with cognates in other Romance languages)

*LATIN  -  SPANISH *- [cognates in _Portuguese | Catalan | French | Italian_]

*aeramine *- aramne > arambre > *alambre *'wire' - [_arame|aram|airain|rame_]
*certitudine *- certidumne > *certidumbre *'certainty' - [_certidão|certitud|certitude|certitudine?_]
*consuetudine > *cossuetumine > *costumine *- costumne > *costumbre *'custom, habit' - [_costume|costum|coutume|costume, consuetudine_]
*culmine > *cu(l)mne > *cumbre *'summit' - [_cume|-|-|culmine_]
*examine > *e_n_xamne > *enjambre *'swarm' - [_enxame|eixam|essaim|sciame_]
*famine > *famne > fambre > *hambre *'hunger' - [_fome|fam|faim|fame]_
*ferrumine > *ferrumne > ferrumbre > *herrumbre *'rust'
*homine > *homne > *hombre *'man' - [_homem|home, hom|homme, on|uomo_]
*legumine >* legumne > *legumbre *'legume' - [_legume|llegum|légume|legume_]
*lumine > *lumne > *lumbre *'light, fire' - [_lume|llum|-|lume_]
*mansuetudine >* mansuedumne > *mansedumbre *'meekness' - [_mansidão, mansedume|mansuetud|mansuétude|mansuetudine_]
*multitudine >* muchedumne > *muchedumbre *'crowd' - [_multidão|multitud|multitude|moltitudine_]
*nomine >* nomne > *nombre *'name' - [_nome|nom|nom|nome_]
*servitudine >* servidumne > *servidumbre *'servitude, servants' - [_servidão|servitud|servitude|servitù_]
*stamine >* stamne > *estambre *'stamen' - [_estame|estam|étaim|stame_]
*vimine >* vimne > bimbre > *mimbre *'wicker' - [_vime|vim, vímet||vimini_]

There is *hembra *'female' (< femna) coming from -mina (FEMINA), as well as some internal ones like *sembrar *'to sow' (< SEMINARE). Most other -br- have a different origin, although sometimes the phenomenon is similar, as in _*hombro *_'shoulder' from _hom'ro _(HUMERU). 


​


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## CapnPrep

See also the following thread:
Spanish words of type homBRe & hemBRa


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## Cenzontle

> As Ahvalj says, there is no _dombre _because the word _dueño _comes from _dominu_, not from _domine_. Same thing with _sueño_.


But we still have to ask why "dominu" didn't give "*duembro".
I suspect it is because "dominu"—exceptionally—suffered the loss of its unstressed "i" in the *early* round of syncope, 
while "famine", "homine", "femina", etc. waited for the *late* round.
(
There were two rounds.  The first round was limited mostly to vowels in contact with a liquid or /s/: solidu > sueldo, viride > verde, consutura > costura, etc.
But Menéndez Pidal (_Manual_, Sec. 25) finds "domnus" early, in Plautus and other inscriptions.
Presumably the "-mn-" was swept along with "-nn-", to become "-ñ-".
When the second round of syncope struck the other "-min-" words, the "-mn-" > "-nn-" change was no longer active;
so the "-mn-" cluster was resolved differently:  "-mn-" > "-mr-" > "-mbr-".
)
Let's not consider "sueño" (from "somnu" and "somniu") as one of those counterexamples that istenaldja asks for, since the "m" and "n" were never separate.
So, is there any other word besides "dueño" to satisfy istenaldja's request for...


> examples, where there is no such development:


?


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## ahvalj

istenaldja said:


> And examples, where there is no such development:



The words that in Acc. Sg. are proparoxytones with the structure -_minVm_ can have the following Nom. Sg.:
_-minus: _Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results
_-minum:_ Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results
_-mina:_ Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results
It appears that of these only _dominus,_ _domina_ and _fēmina _have passed to Spanish.

_-minis: Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results
-mine: _the neutra of the previous type
None of this has passed to Spanish.

_-mō:_ only _homō
-men _(> late Latin / early Romance masculine):_ Latin Dictionary Headword Search Results_
>_-mbre_ (see #2 & 3): I have checked some words from that list but those present in Spanish either end on _-mbre _or are learned words (though some, like _limen,_ may in principle represent _*līminem>**limene>limen_).

P. S. _-Men_ was a productive type in Latin and nevertheless we see that only a small number of words have persisted in the daughter language. That's indicative of the overall problems the reconstruction of the languages faces: a once widespread type may vanish with only few traces remaining.


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## istenaldja

Wow! Thanx for the answers! I really appreciate!

At the link of a similar topic given by CapnPrep, berndf wrote: *To my knowledge, the tendency to insert /b/ between /m/ and /r/ is extremely strong in Spanish. I was just to days ago told of a Mexican boy whom his parents gave the Hungarian name "Imre" and he was consistently called "Imbre" by other children. This tendency might be due to the rhythm of Spanish which tends to be spoken as sequences of fast "bursts" of phonemes.*

Such is Spanish, but the intrusion of -_b_- seems to be more widespread. Most of the cases seem to be tied to syncope.

Maybe it’s slightly motivated phonologically, but is far from being a necessity. A lot of languages have -_VmrV-_ (like Modern English _camera_ pronounced _kæmrə_) without any _b_-like feature.

I made a little list (using etymonline) for some -_Vmb(V)r-_, where there is a -_b_- intrusion – they are from different sources. Can it be a trace of a substrate? Or what else may it be?

*-b- from English*

_timber_ < PG *_timran_ (cognates _Zimmer_ etc., in all Germanic languages, nowhere else is -_b_-) < *_deme_- "to build," possibly from root *_dem_- "house, household" (source of Greek _domos_, Latin _domus_; see _domestic_)

_slumber_, Old English _sluma_ "light sleep" (compare Middle Dutch _slumen_, Dutch _sluimeren_, German _schlummern_ "to slumber"). For the -_b_-, compare _number_, _lumber_, _chamber_, etc.

_lumber_ "to move clumsily," c. 1300, _lomere_, probably from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Swedish _loma_ "move slowly, walk heavily," Old Norse _lami_ "lame"), ultimately cognate with _lame_ [we can guess an ON noun *_lomr_ / *_lamr_]

_ember_, Old English _æmerge_ "ember," merged with or influenced by Old Norse _eimyrja_, both from Proto-Germanic *_aim-uzjon_- "ashes" (cognates: Middle Low German _emere_, Old High German _eimuria_, German _Ammern_); a compound from *_aima_- "ashes" (from PIE root *_ai_- (2) "to burn") + *_uzjo_- "to burn" (from PIE root *_eus_- "to burn;" source also of Latin _urere_ "to burn, singe"). The -_b_- is intrusive.

*-b- from Romance*

_chamber_, c. 1200, "room," usually a private one, from Old French _chambre_ "room, chamber, apartment," also used in combinations to form words for "latrine, privy" (11c.), from Late Latin _camera_ "a chamber, room", from Greek _kamara_ "vaulted chamber."

_cucumber_, late 14c., from Old French _cocombre_ (13c., Modern French _concombre_), from Latin _cucumerem_ (nominative cucumis), perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language. The Latin word also is the source of Italian _cocomero_, Spanish _cohombro_, Portuguese _cogombro_

_number_, c. 1300, "sum, aggregate of a collection," from Anglo-French _noumbre_, Old French _nombre_ and directly from Latin _numerus_ "a number, quantity," from PIE root *_nem_- "to divide, distribute, allot" (related to Greek _nemein_ "to deal out;")

_remember_, early 14c,.from Old French _remembrer_ "remember, recall, bring to mind" (11c.), from Latin _rememorari_ "recall to mind, remember," from _re_- "again" + _memorari_ "be mindful of," from _memor_ "mindful"

*-b- from Latin*

_member_, late 13c., from Old French _membre_ "part, portion; topic, subject; limb, member of the body; member" (of a group, etc.)," 11c., from Latin _membrum_ "limb, member of the body, part," probably from PIE *_mems-ro_, from root *_mems_- "flesh, meat" (cognates: Sanskrit _mamsam_ "flesh;" Greek _meninx_ "membrane," _meros_ "thigh" (the "fleshy part"); Gothic _mimz_ "flesh")

_umbrage_ ’shadow, shade’, early 15c., from Old French, from Latin _umbra_ "shade, shadow," perhaps from a suffixed form of PIE *_andho_- "blind, dark" (cognates: Sanskrit _andha_-, Avestan _anda_- "blind, dark"). Cf. also _umbrella_, from Italian _ombrello_; _somber_, from French; _sombrero_, from Spanish (the latter 2 both from Late Latin _subumbrare_ "to shadow," from _sub_ "under" + _umbra_) [according to this, it’s not intrusion, but _d(h) > b_]

*-b- from Greek*

_ambrosia_, from Greek _ambrosia_ "food of the gods,", probably literally "of the immortals," from _a_- "not" + _mbrotos_, related to _mortos_ "mortal," from PIE *_mer_- "to die"


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## francisgranada

Isten áldjon, Istenáldja .



istenaldja said:


> ... Maybe it’s slightly motivated phonologically, but is far from being a necessity. A lot of languages have -_VmrV-_ (like Modern English _camera_ pronounced _kæmrə_) without any _b_-like feature.


 It's not a necessity, but surely related  to the articulation, as _m _is a bilabial consonant, while_ r_ is not. In my opinion, if you let your lips touching each other a bit _longer _than "normal", you will produce a thin _b_-like sound even in Hungarian when pronouncing e.g. _Imre_.  If true, this might (at least partially) explain why this _-b-_ in Spanish  appears mostly in cases when the (unstressed) vowel following_ m_ was gradually lost.

A propos, a similar phenomenon is _-d-_ between _n _and _r_, e.g. _venirá > ven*d*rá _(Spanish) or _vien*d*ra _(French)_. _The Italian solution is_ ve*rr*à, _however  some (Italian) people pronounce e.g. _San Remo_ as _san*d*remo _(we have been already speaking about this in an other thread).


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## istenaldja

Téged is, Kedves francisgranada 

Yes, if you pronounce it longer (-_mmr-_), then the -_b-_ intrudes easily (also the -_d_- in -_nnr-_).

But: English _comrade_, _Monroe_, SerboCroat _mraz _'frost', Hungarian _kamra _'chamber', _kínra _'on(to) pain', Hebrew _Qumran, _German_ Anruf _etc. -- no any -_b_- or -_d_-.

Spanish, and French seems to have the strongest tendency. How about Celtic?


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## hadronic

And also  _sangre, _with a velar this time.

Yes, the intrusive stops phenomenon used to be very strong in French (see also _essere > esre > estre > être_), but is not active anymore. With the deletion of the "mute e" , a lot of /mr/ and /nr/ reappeared, that are not turning into /mbr/ or /ndr/.  Ex: sèmera, aimera, mènera, sonnerie. That's surely because /r/ is not alveolar anymore.


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## CapnPrep

hadronic said:


> And also _sangre, _with a velar this time.


How can you tell that this /g/ is intrusive, and not a continuation of the Latin velar?


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## hadronic

I meant, the -ine part in _sanguine_ also exhibited a change to -re. But you're right, probably no intrusive stop here.

That said, since we're seeing in the other examples that the transformation of -ine into -re is triggered by a contact with a nasal, if it is not the case in sangre, how would one explain that the change took place?


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## CapnPrep

hadronic said:


> That said, since we're seeing in the other examples that the transformation of -ine into -re is triggered by a contact with a nasal, if it is not the case in sangre, how would one explain that the change took place?


Dissimilation can also work at a distance, the sounds don't necessarily have to be immediately adjacent. Or there may be some other explanation for the _n_ → _r_ substitution in this word.

But the development you suggest is also possible:
sanguine[m] > saŋgne > *saŋne* > *saŋre* > saŋgre​The question is whether there is evidence for the two steps in bold, or if it went directly from _saŋgne_ (which I imagine must have been very short-lived) to _saŋgre_.


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## danielstan

The rhotacism of /n/ (the transformation _n_ → _r_ in some phonetic contexts) is a phonetic change which happened some times in Romanian:
lat. _fenestra _> rom. _fereastră_
lat. _minutus _> rom. _mărunt_

Other examples of rhotacisms in various languages (including Romance languages):Rhotacism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

As for an "explanation" of such phenomenon - who can explain why a language changes from generation to generation?
Probably the tongue makes similar movements when pronouncing the _n_ or _r_ sounds, but then remains the problem of why these phonetic changes have happened in some Romance languages and not in all of them and not in all instances where applicable.


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## francisgranada

danielstan said:


> As for an "explanation" of such phenomenon - who can explain why a language changes from generation to generation?


 We could ask also an "opposite" question: why a language does not change from day to day (or from moment to moment)?

In my opinion a language tends to change continuously in time and space (finally, from person to person). This is true for everything, not only for the languages: the instability seems to be an intrinsic property of the nature/universe in general. On the other hand the necessity of the mutual understanding (global or regional) among people acts against this tendency, so the result is a certain (temporary) equilibrium of the two factors which hold  the speed of changements between "rational" limits ...


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## istenaldja

So what about Celtic? Just because (I know very little about it, and) it is commonly held that among the most important factors producing the differences between Romance languages are their substrates' differences. And these, in many cases, like Spanish and French, are Celtic. In Spanish they suppose a non-IE substrate, too, but -_mbr_- is a common Spanish-French [-English?] isogloss.


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## danielstan

I found a very convincing explanation about similar phenomena in French: http://passerellesdutemps.free.fr/edition_numerique/IGCD/4_LANGUES/41_Linguistique_generale/410_Grammaire_historique_de_la langue_francaise.pdf (page 125, but you may find it more easily by searching the word "camera" in .pdf)

They say that pronouncing 2 liquid consonants one after another is difficult and during the evolution of French a new consonant was inserted, in order to separate the liquids.
Examples from French:

1. ML > MBL
lat. _hu*mil*is _> _hu*ml*is _> fr. _hu*mbl*e_
lat. _cumulus _> _cumlus _> fr. _comble_
lat. _simulo _> _simlo _> fr. _semble_
lat. _insimul _> fr. _ensemble_

2. MR > MBR
lat. _numerus _> _numrus _> fr. _nombre_
lat. _camera _> _camra _> fr. _chambre_
lat. _cucumerem _> fr. _concombre_

3. LR > LDR
fr. _moudre_, _foudre_, _poudre (_Old French_ moldre, foldre, poldre)_

4. NL > NGL
lat. _spinula _> _spinla _> fr. _epingle_

5. NR > NDR
lat. _ponere _> _ponre _> fr. _pondre_
lat. _summonere _> fr. _semondre_
lat. _gener _> fr. _gendre_
lat. _tener _> fr. _tendre_
lat. _minor _> fr. _moindre_


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## wtrmute

danielstan said:


> As for an "explanation" of such phenomenon - who can explain why a language changes from generation to generation?
> Probably the tongue makes similar movements when pronouncing the _n_ or _r_ sounds, but then remains the problem of why these phonetic changes have happened in some Romance languages and not in all of them and not in all instances where applicable.



There are a few people who make the attempt.

Regarding _n_ and _r_ (or rather [ɾ]), it's a question of nasalization and denasalization.  Guarani has a lot of nasal mutations where r becomes n and back; they are otherwise very similar phones.


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## danielstan

Impressive! 
I didn't spend time to understand the mathematical formulas from those books, but I am amazed to see that somebody tried to make a mathematical model for the evolution of languages.
I wonder if it is possible to predict the main trends of evolution of a certain language for the next 100 or 1000 years, publish them in a book and let the posterity to validate this theory.


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