# Persian: کودک is infant; کودك is baby



## Daffodil100

Hi,

Aryamp mentioned:




> Keep in mind though ك is the final K strictly used in Arabic, and it's wrong to use it in Persian though still it's wrongly used in many texts probably because of font issues .




http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2656204
Post# 12 


But my dictionary especially defines کودک is infant; کودك is baby. The two words are just next to each other in my dictionary. Obviously there are not out of font issues.

I also found in my dictionary there are a bunch of words with ك ک

Do you have any idea about them?

Thank you!​


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## Treaty

Hi,
Both should be کودک. 
کودک means a very young person. Depending on the context کودک may mean infant, baby, child or underage. However, the highly preferred word for infant is نوزاد (= new-born).


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## Daffodil100

Thank you very much, Treaty.


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## Aryamp

Hi

Your dictionary seems to have some eccentricities which I can't get my head around. I can assure you کودک and کودك are absolutely identical words except that one is written with the wrong form of letter as I explained in the other thread. 

Of course I can only speak for Persian in Iran ,  maybe your dictionary is about some dialect of Persian which is unknown to me. 

Doesn't your dictionary explain what dialect of Persian it's based on? If it's made based on Persian in Iran then it's definitely wrong to use ك instead of ک and then distinguish the meaning of identical words based on such difference.


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## marrish

Treaty said:


> Hi,
> Both should be کودک.
> کودک means a very young person. Depending on the context کودک may mean infant, baby, child or underage. However, the highly preferred word for infant is نوزاد (= new-born).


Is there an expression بچہ شیر خوار in Persian?


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## Aryamp

marrish said:


> Is there an expression بچہ شیر خوار in Persian?



Yes , that expression is also used to describe a baby in infant stage.


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## Treaty

marrish said:


> Is there an expression بچہ شیر خوار in Persian?


شیرخواره is also used in Persian but not as common as نوزاد. Besides, it is usually used as an adjective (for بچه or نوزاد) and when the message is somehow related to nutrition. 
بچه itself is also used for both نوزاد and کودک especially and frequently in colloquial language.


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## marrish

Treaty said:


> شیرخواره is also used in Persian but not as common as نوزاد. Besides, it is usually used as an adjective (for بچه or نوزاد) and when the message is somehow related to nutrition.
> بچه itself is also used for both نوزاد and کودک especially and frequently in colloquial language.


There is no doubt about _bachchah_ and yes, it is used as an adjective in our language too. For نوزاد we use نو زائیدہ or نو مولود (infant), would you deem these possible on the Persian ground>?


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## Treaty

نو مولود and نو زاییده are new for me. However, نوباوه is sometimes used, both as noun and adjective. Also تازه متولد شده is used as an adjective.


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## Daffodil100

Aryamp said:


> Hi
> 
> Your dictionary seems to have some eccentricities which I can't get my head around. I can assure you کودک and کودك are absolutely identical words except that one is written with the wrong form of letter as I explained in the other thread.
> 
> Of course I can only speak for Persian in Iran , maybe your dictionary is about some dialect of Persian which is unknown to me.
> 
> Doesn't your dictionary explain what dialect of Persian it's based on? If it's made based on Persian in Iran then it's definitely wrong to use ك instead of ک and then distinguish the meaning of identical words based on such difference.




Thank you for your reply. I think you and Treaty are reliable.


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## .::Prince_of_Persia::.

First of all, *کودک* is correct and کودك is not correct.

When we refer to کودک we are talking about ages around less than 5 years or so. For instance, on the medicine box you may see it's written دور از دسترس کودکان نگهداری شود Hence may be the word *infant* is a good equivalent for it.

*بچه* can be used for *child*. ---> *بچه ها* for *Children*

*نوزاد *for a *new-born* or *baby*. ---> *نوزادان* for *babies*


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## Aryamp

.::Prince_of_Persia::. said:


> When we refer to کودک we are talking about ages around less than 5 years or so.



What do you call children between 5 to 13 years of age?  To me کودک includes all the age groups up to "teenager" and specifically this is revealed in the phrase کودکان و نوجوانان


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## Treaty

Aryamp said:


> What do you call children between 5 to 13 years of age?  To me کودک includes all the age groups up to "teenager" and specifically this is revealed in the phrase کودکان و نوجوانان



Also, in legal and human right cases (including work, abuse and  punishment) کودک may be used for underage people (as old as 16  sometimes!).


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## Aryamp

Treaty said:


> Also, in legal and human right cases (including work, abuse and  punishment) کودک may be used for underage people (as old as 16  sometimes!).



True, there are no well-defined lines and in some context کودک is used as opposed to adult.


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## .::Prince_of_Persia::.

Treaty said:


> Also, in legal and human right cases (including work, abuse and  punishment) کودک may be used for underage people (as old as 16  sometimes!).



Well it depend to the context whether it is informal, formal or a law text. In law since they had to choose "one" equivalent for "child" under 18 that is used in English law texts, they have used کودک in opposed to "adult". But as we know even in informal and talking English we don't call a 14 year old boy a child although from law point of view he is.

Hence in formal text you can use کودک for ages around teenagers too but not in informal usage at least. For instance in programs that are considered for children when the one who does the performance in that program wants to talk to the audience (children) he/she won't tell dear my کودکان , instead he/she may say  سلام بچه ها because those children of ages around 10 may consider it rude to be called کودک although in formal usage and based on law they are کودک. Or for instance, I would never say my brother has a کودک of age 10; instead I might use the word بچه . That is why even for the programs considered for children they almost use both the کودکان و نوجوانان together so that those children won't consider it rude for themselves.

In formal usage we can extend the usage of کودک for up to 12 years children and in law texts even for up to 18 years old children. Therefore may be the context should be considered.

In formal context we may use these words with ages going up:

جوانان <---- نوجوانان <---- کودکان <---- نونهالان <---- نوزادان


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## Aryamp

I would never say "سلام کودک ها" in any context to any child of whatever age, hence the reason it's never said is not because children will get offended, it's just not used that way.

And then I would never say something like برادرم کودکی ۵ ساله دارد or whatever other age , the most natural word to use in that context is بچه , because بچه and child in English refer to a young person (regardless of the exact age group) also generally they are used for human offspring of any age, so even a 50 year old man can be a "child" to his mom.

Even in your classification you seem to consider کودکی stage extends up to teenage years so in fact it will include children of much older than 5.  In fact the age of puberty is very critical here , and also among these words  نوجوانان <---- کودکان <---- نونهالان    نوزادان if we were to choose only one word that would best represent them all then کودک is definitely the best choice because in fact in practice it conveniently includes all ages groups from newborn up to early teenage years. 

Also I think we're all very familiar with this poem : کودکی ۱۰ ساله بودم شاد و خرم ٬‌نرم و نازک‌٬ چست و چابک so the notion that a 10 year old might get offended if he/she is called a کودک is definitely out of the question.


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## .::Prince_of_Persia::.

The reason that I used that ages for کودکان was that from educational point of view we call kindergarten مهدکودک or کودکستان ( = place for کودکان) which is intended for children who are not yet ready for دبستان

دانشگاه (18 سال به بالا) <--- دبیرستان (14 تا 18 سال) <--- راهنمایی (12 تا 14 سال) <--- دبستان (7 تا 12 سال) <--- کودکستان یا مهدکودک (کمتر از حدود 6 سال

But as others noted in every context the usage may be different. As we can see in law text it is used in opposed to adults.


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## Aryamp

.::Prince_of_Persia::. said:


> The reason that I used that ages for کودکان was that from educational point of view we call kindergarten مهدکودک or کودکستان ( = place for کودکان) which is intended for children who are not yet ready for دبستان



Oh I see but that's just a name, all the children in کودکستان are کودک however it doesn't mean all کودکs are only in کودکستان , like دانشگاه , there's definitely دانش in دانشگاه but دانشگاه is not the only place with دانش .


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## .::Prince_of_Persia::.

Aryamp said:


> Also I think we're all very familiar with this poem : کودکی ۱۰ ساله بودم شاد و خرم ٬‌نرم و نازک‌٬ چست و چابک so the notion that a 10 year old might get offended if he/she is called a کودک is definitely out of the question.



Well indeed the word کودک has been used in different contexts for different ages and we cannot precisely define it. As you might have heard in physiological texts we use کودک درون ( = the inner child) to express one's innocent judgment apart from social norms, law, etc. Which in that context it is also referring to ages when one has not yet disciplined his/her behavioral system based on social norms likely less than 7 years old. The important thing is that, the usage of this word in every context refers to special ages.


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## Treaty

Aryamp said:


> In fact the age of puberty is very critical here .



Exactly!
 Formally, since age of puberty differs from person to person, "age of consent" (sometime in mid-teenage) is considered the boundary.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> There is no doubt about _bachchah_ and yes, it is used as an adjective in our language too. For نوزاد we use نو زائیدہ or نو مولود (infant), would you deem these possible on the Persian ground>?


 marrish SaaHib, we use all of these in our Urdu as well: _bachchaah_, _shiir-xwaar_ شیرخوار (pronounced by us as _shiir-xaar_),  _nau-zaad_ نوزاد as well as نو مولود _nau-mauluud_. But _kuudak_  کودک is not used. Only when we are speaking Persian.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, we use all of these in our Urdu as well: _bachchah_, _shiir-xwaar_ شیرخوار (pronounced by us as _shiir-xaar_),  _nau-zaad_ نوزاد as well as نو مولود _nau-mauluud_. But _kuudak_  کودک is not used. Only when we are speaking Persian.


Agreed! I was only testing different Urdu words amongst which _nau-zaa'iidah_ on our Persian friend. Incidentally I have come against _nau-zaa'iidah_ more frequently than _nau-zaad, _which appears simpler_. _I didn't ask about_ nau-zaad _because it was already there.


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## Qureshpor

.::Prince_of_Persia::. said:


> First of all, *کودک* is correct and کودك is not correct.
> 
> When we refer to کودک we are talking about ages around less than 5 years or so. For instance, on the medicine box you may see it's written دور از دسترس کودکان نگهداری شود Hence may be the word *infant* is a good equivalent for it.
> 
> *بچه* can be used for *child*. ---> *بچه ها* for *Children*
> 
> *نوزاد *for a *new-born* or *baby*. ---> *نوزادان* for *babies*


I don't know why the latter would be "incorrect". It is just a different style of writing the letter kaaf. I have books printed in Iran in which this version of kaaf is employed.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> I don't know why the latter would be "incorrect". It is just a different style of writing the letter kaaf. I have books printed in Iran in which this version of kaaf is employed.


 I quite agree with you it is quite OK to have _kuudak_ written as کودك. It is all a matter of font! One only has to google کودك to see how often it is being used.


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