# French phonetics and pronunciation



## James Bates

Is there any difference in pronunciation between:

1. "demain" and "deux mains",
2. "Je dis" and "jeudi",
3. "Il aime" and "Il l'aime",
4. "bon ami" and "bonne amie",
5. "Que demande-t-il?" and "Que demandent-ils?"


Thanks.


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## tilt

1. and 2. : the difference is the same.
It's not easy to explain it by writing ! In "_d*e*main_" and "j_*e* dis_", both "e"s are prounounced as "a" in "_*a* dog_" or 1st "u" in "_*u*ntrue_". In "_d*eu*x_" and "_j*eu*di_", the sound is the same as German "*ö*" in "_m*ö*glich_" (if it makes any sens for you, I don't think this sound exists in English).

3. The difference is audible, yes. In "_Il l'aime_", both "l"s are prounounced. Just say "_Il_" and then "_l'aime_".

4. and 5. For these, there is no audible difference.

I'm not sure an English ear can easily hear the difference in cases 1 and 2. I remember an English friend of mine, who was living in France for few months and found hard to hear any difference between "_poisson_" and "_puissant_"!

Another example of slight difference is "_br*un*_" and "_br*in*_". I know some native French people who say the same thing for both, even if the are really different.


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## zaby

1. "demain" and "deux mains",
2. "Je dis" and "jeudi",
Yes, 'e' (symbol) is pronounced differently than "eu" (symbol). I can't really describe it. e is shorter and more open. Have a look here (end of the page and next page)


3. "Il aime" and "Il l'aime",
I think the 'l' is pronounced longer in "Il l'aime"

4. "bon ami" and "bonne amie", no difference
5. "Que demande-t-il?" and "Que demandent-ils?" no difference


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## James Bates

Thank you.
Is "Je fais" pronounced "je fé" or "je fè"? And is "Il a fait" pronounced "Il a fé" or "Il a fè"? Thanks again.
Oh, yeah, one other thing. Are "Quand part-il?" and "Quand partent-ils?" pronounced the same way? What about "Où habite-t-il?" and "Où habitent-ils?"


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## tilt

> Is "Je fais" pronounced "je fé" or "je fè"? And is "Il a fait" pronounced "Il a fé" or "Il a fè"? Thanks again.


Always say if "fè", whatever the person is.



> Oh, yeah, one other thing. Are "Quand part-il?" and "Quand partent-ils?" pronounced the same way?


 No!
For "_part-il_", say "_partil_", and for "_partent-ils_" say "_partetil_"



> What about "Où habite-t-il?" and "Où habitent-ils?"


 Here, the pronounciation is the same.


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## belkira

Hello,

I would say that "bon ami" and "bonne amie" aren't pronounce the same way.  For me "bon" is definitely differently pronounced than "bonne", and the difference is the same for 'ami' and 'amie', for both you add the feminine mark.


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## tilt

I know that some people say "_bon-nami_", but IMHO, it is not "good" French.
As "_bon_" it is followed by a vowel here (1st letter of "_ami_"), its final "n" has to be pronounced with this vowel, and not with its preceeding "o" anymore.
Thus, "bon ami" becomes the same as "bonne ami".

Some people also pronounce a slight "e" at the end of "amie", but it sounds a bit ridiculous and totaly useless to me.


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## belkira

Ok that's always nice to see how differences can be huge in pronunciation from a place to another.

It's sure than in my region, i get the difference between bon ami and bonne amie. I trust you when you say it is not the same for you. But i will never be agree if you say that's useless. Differenciate feminine from masculine in a sentence, sounds for me like something useful !


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## James Bates

tilt said:
			
		

> Always say if "fè", whatever the person is.



But for "j'ai", "je sais", and "je vais", it's "jé", "je sé", and "je vé", right?


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## tilt

No, it is "jè", "je sè", etc.

The only case where I know "ai" to be pronounced "é" is for verbs of the 1st group (all verbs ending by "er" except "aller"), in their 1st person form of simple past tense :
_manger _-> _je mangeai

_It is unusal enough to make French people getting used to say "è" even here. The verb then sounds exactly like imperfect tense, and only the context allows knowing which one to write.


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## James Bates

Thank you for replying to my questions. I was wondering what part of France you're from. You see, my French textbook explicitly says that "j'ai", "je sais", and "je vais" are pronounced "jé", "je sé", and "je vé" while "je fais" is pronounced "je fè". I've heard French people pronounce it "je fé" though, so I don't know who to trust. Perhaps I'm hearing it incorrectly. Or perhaps these words are pronounced differently in different dialects. If that is the case, could you tell me how Parisians would pronounce these four words? Thanks again.


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## tilt

Well, it is true that people from the South of France have an accent where they tend to says "je vé".
But I assure you that these words have to be said as I told you. People on TV do. Parisians do. And me, native from Lyon, I do too.

Well, the best lesson we could learn from this thread is that... there is not one way of speaking French!
If you're fluent enough in French, you could try to read this very interresting essay : http://virga.org/cvf/normmyst.php


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## Ahmed

Could somebody tell me if the following phrases all rhyme? I mean if you remove the first letter from each of them will they sound exactly the same?

1. bonne amie
2. son ami
3. ton ami
4. mon ami


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## zaby

The first one doesn't rhymes with the others
1. bo/na/mi 
2. son/na/mi 
3. ton/na/mi
4. mon/na/mi

Note that (If I understood correctly) for Belkira "bon ami" would rhymes (bon/na/mi), but for me it's the same as bonne amie


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## tilt

Like Zaby, ans like most of the people around me, I say "bo/nami" as well for "_bon ami_" as for "_bonne ami_". As the final "n" of "_bon_" is pronounced with the "a" of "_ami_", it makes sense to detach it from its "o" (in fact, we say it like if it was a single word: "_bonami_")

On the other hand, for "_mon_" (and "_ton_" and "_son_"), we keep saying "mon/nami"! I have absolutely no explantation for this. And moreover, I know people how do say "mo/nami"!

I'm not sure there is really a standard rule for this!


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## Ahmed

Thanks a lot.
Could you please tell me if the "inquiéterons" in "nous nous inquiéterons plus tard" is pronounced "in quiét ron" or "in quièt ron"?
Secondly, are "Il peut venir" and "Ils peuvent nire" pronounced the same way? I know there's no such word as "nire", but let's just pretend it rhymes with "dire" and "lire".


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
Sorry, but the "e" sound in "jeudi", "je dis", "demain" and "deux mains" are the same. "je", "jeu", "de" and "deux" are a closed "e" like in "peu" or "feu", not an open "e" like in "bonheur", "peur" or "beurre"
Hope it helps!


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## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot.
> Could you please tell me if the "inquiéterons" in "nous nous inquiéterons plus tard" is pronounced "in quiét ron" or "in quièt ron"?



It should be said "é", but if you say "è", people wouldn't mind. I think it's because the corresponding adjective, _inquiet_, is pronounced "è".
It is the same for the verb _r*é*__gler_. A lot of people say "_r*è*gler_", probably because the noun is _r*è*gle_.

Note that the accentless "e" should be said : "in quié te ron". But we don't, usually.



> Secondly, are "Il peut venir" and "Ils peuvent nire" pronounced the same way? I know there's no such word as "nire", but let's just pretend it rhymes with "dire" and "lire".



No, they don't. But it's going to be hard to explain by writting !
In "_il peut_", the "eu" is the same of in "_bleu_", more acute than in "ils peuvent", where the sound is cllose to the "u" of "_to run_".


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## Rypervenche

James Bates said:
			
		

> Is there any difference in pronunciation between:
> 
> 1. "demain" and "deux mains",
> 2. "Je dis" and "jeudi",
> 3. "Il aime" and "Il l'aime",
> 4. "bon ami" and "bonne amie",
> 5. "Que demande-t-il?" and "Que demandent-ils?"
> 
> 
> Thanks.



N° 4 there is a difference in pronunciation, the same difference between votre and le vôtre, (learned at Académie Française ).  The best way I can describe it in text is to pronounce "bonne idée" like 'bunny day'.  Pronounce bon like you were taught.  Look around the internet for phonetics of the French language.


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## tilt

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Sorry, but the "e" sound in "jeudi", "je dis", "demain" and "deux mains" are the same. "je", "jeu", "de" and "deux" are a closed "e" like in "peu" or "feu", not an open "e" like in "bonheur", "peur" or "beurre"
> Hop it helps!


No, not for me...
I say "Je" and "de" just like "peur"! And the Harraps phonetic agrees with me. 

But as I said before, finally, it mainly depends on regional accents, so noone can really say they own the Truth (with a capital T).


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## Ahmed

Is "Médecin" pronounced "mèd sin"? Because that's the pronunciation the Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary gives.


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## marget

tilt said:
			
		

> It should be said "é", but if you say "è", people wouldn't mind. I think it's because the corresponding adjective, _inquiet_, is pronounced "è".
> It is the same for the verb _r*é*__gler_. A lot of people say "_r*è*gler_", probably because the noun is _r*è*gle_.
> 
> Note that the accentless "e" should be said : "in quié te ron". But we don't, usually.
> 
> 
> I think that the revisions put forth in 1990 by the Académie française now state that verbs such as s'inquiéter, préférer, etc.  may now be written in the future and present conditional with _è _instead of _é_.  Nous nous _inquièterons_.  I thought that the change was approved to relfect the actual pronunciation.  The same goes for the word _évènement_.
> 
> Can someone please let me know if I am correct?
> 
> Merci d'avance


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## tilt

No, I think we do say "m*é*dsin"...


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## tilt

marget said:
			
		

> I think that the revisions put forth in 1990 by the Académie française now state that verbs such as s'inquiéter, préférer, etc.  may now be written in the future and present conditional with _è _instead of _é_.  Nous nous _inquièterons_.  I thought that the change was approved to relfect the actual pronunciation.  The same goes for the word _évènement_.
> 
> Can someone please let me know if I am correct?



You're totally right !
http://www.orthographe-recommandee.info/

But note that most of the French people don't even know anything about that... And I'm sure old spellings are going to be taught for ages anyway...


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## marget

tilt said:
			
		

> You're totally right !
> http://www.orthographe-recommandee.info/
> 
> 
> Thanks. Would you know if new textbooks employ the changes?  As of now, I know that both the old and new forms are acceptable, but I imagine it may take many years (generations) before the changes are fully acknowledged and  employed.


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## tilt

Who knows ?
Being fully acknowledged and  employed will be long, but it may also *never* happen ! 
For me, a good test will be to see when speller applications will use theses rules.


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## HistofEng

IS there a difference in pronunciation between

'Je parlerais' and 'Je parlerai'

is it the same as 'parlrè' and 'parlré'?

and is this pronuncation difference applied to all first-person future and conditional? 

and how do you pronounce 'préférerai'.....do you have to pronunce all the vowels?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,


			
				CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Sorry, but the "e" sound in "jeudi", "je dis", "demain" and "deux mains" are the same. "je", "jeu", "de" and "deux" are a closed "e" like in "peu" or "feu", not an open "e" like in "bonheur", "peur" or "beurre"


 
J'ai pris le temps de vérifier :
On donne, en français 3 sons "e" : (1) "deux" -> très fermé, (2) "le" -> fermé, (3) "beurre" -> ouvert.

Le Petit Robert donne "je", "jeu", "de", "deux" identiques avec le son (1) et "beurre" avec le son (3)!

Le Robert & Collins différencie "deux", "je" et "beurre" : "deux" (1) , "je" (2) et "beurre" (3).
Voilà !


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## marget

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> 
> J'ai pris le temps de vérifier :
> On donne, en français 3 sons "e" : (1) "deux" -> très fermé, (2) "le" -> fermé, (3) "beurre" -> ouvert.
> 
> Le Petit Robert donne "je", "jeu", "de", "deux" identiques avec le son (1) et "beurre" avec le son (3)!
> 
> Le Robert & Collins différencie "deux", "je" et "beurre" : "deux" (1) , "je" (2) et "beurre" (3).
> Voilà !


 
My Larousse also indicates the same three distinct pronunciations  as the Robert & Collins.  However, my book "Phonétique" published by Hachette states that three vowel sounds are "disappearing"/"falling out of use", the "eu" of deux is "blending", if you will, with the "e" of de.

(The other two are â, which is more often pronounced as "a" and "un" changing to "in")

Of course native speakers would have to confirm this.


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## Morgan Le Faye

Wow!  This is so enlightening.  I've always had trouble with the various "e" sounds.  I used to do exercises with a tutor to try to stop mixing up the "e fermé" and the "e très fermé". The "e très fermé" often felt awkward, like you're puckering up for a kiss, so I would only do it properly when carefully enunciating.   Also it often seemed that people didn't differentiate between them, so I thought I just couldn't hear the difference.   Now I find out there was a reason why I didn't always hear a difference!  

Does it sound "improper/ poor pronunciation" to a French person to blend the "e très fermé" into a ""e fermé"?  Or is it just not very good enunciation, like the way most people barely pronounce the "t"s in "Atlanta" (/Adlanna/); not wrong, just more colloquial.


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
It seems that some pronounce "e très fermé" et "e fermé" slighthly differently, and some don't.
As far as I'm concerned, I never noticed and  "je veux le jeu de vieux oeufs" has only one sound ("e fermé" or "très fermé"). The real difference is when I pronounce it quickly. I can understress the "e fermé", not the "e très fermé" : "j'veux l'jeu d'vieux oeufs"
Hope it helps!


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## James Bates

HistofEng said:
			
		

> IS there a difference in pronunciation between
> 
> 'Je parlerais' and 'Je parlerai'
> 
> is it the same as 'parlrè' and 'parlré'?
> 
> and is this pronuncation difference applied to all first-person future and conditional?
> 
> and how do you pronounce 'préférerai'.....do you have to pronunce all the vowels?



According to my limited knowledge of French,

1. parlerais = par le rè
2. parlerai = par le ré

As for "préférerai", I guess it would be "pré fèr ré". But it might be "pré fè ré". We would have to check with a native speaker.


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## Ahmed

Could somebody tell me if "dix-sept (17)" is pronounced "di sept" or "dix sept(10 7)"? That is, is the "s" doubled in "dix-sept" or not?


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## tilt

Rypervenche said:
			
		

> 1. and 2. should both be pronounced as par le ré.  As for préférerai, it should be pronounced pré fé re ré.



Sorry but I don"t agree !
_ 1. parler*ais* = par le r*è*
2. parler*ai* = par le r*é*
_ is what has to be said IMHO_*.*

_It seems to be clear that French accents and habits vary at lot. You're not going to have definitive rules about pronounciation subtleties...

So let me suggest something simple: each time you hesitate between *é* and *è*, just keep saying *è*. Even if it is not formaly right, no French-speaker will mind.


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
If I pronouce "dix quatre" and "dix-sept" carefuly, the "s" of "dix-sept" is slightly longer thant in "dix quatre".
When I speak at normal/quick pace, I can feel the difference in the pressure of my tongue againts my front teeth but I can hardly hear it. I would say, it's the same as when I say "I couldn't" : I feel the "d" in my mouth but I can hardly hear it.

And it's "dizuit", "dizneuf"


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## tilt

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Hello,
> If I pronouce "dix quatre" and "dix-sept" carefuly, the "s" of "dix-sept" is slightly longer thant in "dix quatre".
> When I speak at normal/quick pace, I can feel the difference in the pressure of my tongue againts my front teeth but I can hardly hear it. I would say, it's the same as when I say "I couldn't" : I feel the "d" in my mouth but I can hardly hear it.
> 
> And it's "dizuit", "dizneuf"



CARNESECCHI
"Dix quatre" ??
Gosh, someone lied to me; I say "quatorze" for ages ! 

Ahmed
Just say "di set" and stop worrying for so little details !


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## KaRiNe_Fr

tilt said:
			
		

> CARNESECCHI
> "Dix quatre" ??
> Gosh, someone lied to me; I say "quatorze" for ages !


How do you say this : "10  4" ?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,


			
				tilt said:
			
		

> CARNESECCHI
> "Dix quatre" ??
> Gosh, someone lied to me; I say "quatorze" for ages !


 
As far as I'm concerned, I have been saying "quatorze" for "14" and for some fifty years now. But, in my long life, once in a while, I happened to pronounce "dix quatre" because, only God knows why, I found "10" followed by "4". 
Et gros poutous à karine!

And I was happy when someone explained me how to say "couldn't" in one single short breath!


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## Rypervenche

tilt said:
			
		

> Sorry but I don"t agree !
> _ 1. parler*ais* = par le r*è*
> 2. parler*ai* = par le r*é*
> _ is what has to be said IMHO_*.*
> 
> _It seems to be clear that French accents and habits vary at lot. You're not going to have definitive rules about pronounciation subtleties...
> 
> So let me suggest something simple: each time you hesitate between *é* and *è*, just keep saying *è*. Even if it is not formaly right, no French-speaker will mind.



So sorry, I was wrong.  It's been a few years, I have forgotten some I guess 
In phonetics...
1. parlerais = ɛ (è)
2. parlerai = e (é)
Sorry if I confused anyone.


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## Ahmed

How is the French letter "e" pronounced when reciting the alphabet? Is it pronounced like the "e" in "de" or like the "eux" in "deux"?


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## marget

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, I have been saying "quatorze" for "14" and for some fifty years now. But, in my long life, once in a while, I happened to pronounce "dix quatre" because, only God knows why, I found "10" followed by "4".
> Et gros poutous à karine!
> 
> And I was happy when someone explained me how to say "couldn't" in one single short breath!


 
You would find dix followed by quatre if someone were announcing the winning numbers of a lottery, right?


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## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> How is the French letter "e" pronounced when reciting the alphabet? Is it pronounced like the "e" in "de" or like the "eux" in "deux"?



Say "e" like in "de"


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## CARNESECCHI

hello,


			
				marget said:
			
		

> You would find dix followed by quatre if someone were announcing the winning numbers of a lottery, right?


 
Yes, for example, or when I read a list of numbers in a file! And also when I'm trying to feel the difference between pronouncing "dix-sept" and pronouncing "dix" followed by a number that does not begin with the "s" sound ("six" does not fit, nor does "cinq", and going down, I come to "quatre", hence "dix quatre")


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## xav

Rypervenche said:
			
		

> As for préférerai, it should be pronounced pré fé re ré.


Well, I'm sorry (dear Pervenche), but definitely nobody, at least in northern France, will say that : we say "pré fèr ré", as James Bates suggested.


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## Rypervenche

xav said:
			
		

> Well, I'm sorry (dear Pervenche), but definitely nobody, at least in northern France, will say that : we say "pré fèr ré", as James Bates suggested.



orz, shot down by the native  I won't post anything anymore unless i'm 100% sure.


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## Ahmed

Is "réveille-toi" pronounced "ré véy toi" or "ré vèy toi"?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
Is "réveille-toi" pronounced "ré véy toi" or *"ré vèy toi*"?
Hope it helps


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## James Bates

Would you pronounce "on se" (e.g. in "on se tutoie" or "on se croirait") as "once"? Or would you articulate the "e" in "se"?


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## Lezert

James Bates said:
			
		

> Would you pronounce "on se" (e.g. in "on se tutoie" or "on se croirait") as "once"? Or would you articulate the "e" in "se"?


depend about where you live...


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## CARNESECCHI

hello,


			
				James Bates said:
			
		

> Would you pronounce "on se" (e.g. in "on se tutoie" or "on se croirait") as "once"? Or would you articulate the "e" in "se"?


 
You can say "onseututoi" or "onstutoi", the latter being more logical because, since you start saying "tu", the language becomes less formal.
And "e" in "se" is not an e ouvert" like in "beurre", it's a "e fermé"
Hope it helps!


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## marget

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> hello,
> 
> 
> You can say "onseututoi" or "onstutoi", the latter being more logical because, since you start saying "tu", the language becomes less formal.
> And "e" in "se" is not an e ouvert" like in "beurre", it's a "e fermé"
> Hope it helps!


 

"La loi des trois consonnes" - I think I studied a rule of phonetics that stated that if you had an unaccented e surrounded by three consonant sounds, the "e" had to be pronounced, such as in the word "me*rcred*i" (that's actually four!) Would that rule apply to "on se croirait"?


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## Auryn

Rypervenche said:
			
		

> So sorry, I was wrong.  It's been a few years, I have forgotten some I guess
> In phonetics...
> 1. parlerais = ɛ (è)
> 2. parlerai = e (é)
> Sorry if I confused anyone.



I never ever pronounce the sound -ai_ '_é'_. _Always 'è', whatever the word. As far as I'm concerned, pronouncing it 'é' is extremely ugly. It seems to be a growing trend though, unfortunately. Whenever I hear a newsreader talk about "la _pé_ au Moyen-Orient", it makes me cringe.


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## CARNESECCHI

hello,
The "e" is between consonants that belong to other words, so you can say "on s'croirait", and,
I think it must be "three sounds" cause we (at least I) need to rest an short time on the ' to pronounce "mercr'di" or "vendr'di" or "âcr'ment", "plarl'ment", "parch'min" "appart'ment"
But it's easy to pronounce "bell'ment" "chich'ment" "truch'ment" "vach'ment" "arrang'ment" (n belongs to the sound "an")


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## marget

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> hello,
> The "e" is between consonants that belong to other words, so you can say "on s'croirait", and,
> I think it must be "three sounds" cause we (at least I) need to rest an short time on the ' to pronounce "mercr'di" or "vendr'di" or "âcr'ment", "plarl'ment", "parch'min" "appart'ment"
> But it's easy to pronounce "bell'ment" "chich'ment" "truch'ment" "vach'ment" "arrang'ment" (n belongs to the sound "an")


 
Merci.  Yes, I meant three sounds. I consider "ch" "ll" "ng" just one sound.  I thought you could say on se croirait as you suggested.  I just wanted to make sure.


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## Rypervenche

Auryn said:
			
		

> I never ever pronounce the sound -ai_ '_é'_. _Always 'è', whatever the word. As far as I'm concerned, pronouncing it 'é' is extremely ugly. It seems to be a growing trend though, unfortunately. Whenever I hear a newsreader talk about "la _pé_ au Moyen-Orient", it makes me cringe.



What part of France do you come crom Auryn?


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## Auryn

Rypervenche said:
			
		

> What part of France do you come crom Auryn?


My family is from northern France but I didn't grow up there. I can't really answer your question, to be honest. I was an Army kid.


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## Rypervenche

Auryn said:
			
		

> My family is from northern France but I didn't grow up there. I can't really answer your question, to be honest. I was an Army kid.



Ah ok, because I went to a school for 3 weeks where we could only speak in French the whole time.  During that time we took different classes to improve our knowledge of French life and our knowledge of the language.  In our phonetics class we learned the difference in parlerai and parlerais, and our teacher said many French people didn't know a lot of the things we were learning.


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## Auryn

Rypervenche said:
			
		

> Ah ok, because I went to a school for 3 weeks where we could only speak in French the whole time.  During that time we took different classes to improve our knowledge of French life and our knowledge of the language.  In our phonetics class we learned the difference in parlerai and parlerais, and our teacher said many French people didn't know a lot of the things we were learning.


Was your teacher a native French speaker then? Because I was never taught that there was a difference betwen the two, and I only ever went to French schools, in various regions of France. 

In fact, I remember learning a poem by Victor Hugo that's entirely in the future tense (Demain, dès l'aube) and having to recite it in class, and we were definitely supposed to pronounce the verbs _partir*è*, ir*è*, marcher*è*_ and so on. I did anyway and I was never corrected.


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## tilt

This arguing is endless! So many accents and habits exist through France and all the other countries where French is spoken!

Of course, there are some official and traditionnal rules (like saying "_é_" for conjugated verbs ending with "_ai_" - _and only these verbs Auryn, not all the words with "_ai_"!_) that foreign people should know in order to speak a correct French.
But in practice, people speak differently depending on the region they live in, the one they are native of, their social background, the places where they studied, the possible accent their parents had themsleves... And each one is sure to speak *the *correct way, considering that others have a fun and colourful but nonetheless strange accent! 
There are also everyday habits, making people shortering words whenever it is easy (that's why we'll say "_on s'croirait_" but not "_mercr'di_" as the 1st one is easy to say and not the 2nd).I bet this is the same for English langage across the world, isn't it ?

English-speakers, if you really want to know the official way to pronounce a word, maybe you should refer to a dictionnary rather than asking 
the versatile community of the users of this forum, or you'll "_lose your latin_".


----------



## Rypervenche

Well said tilt, well said.


----------



## Auryn

tilt said:
			
		

> Of course, there are some official and traditionnal rules (like saying "_é_" for conjugated verbs ending with "_ai_" - _and only these verbs Auryn, not all the words with "_ai_"!_)



Yes, I got that. My point was that *I*, a native French speaker, always pronounce the sound -ai _'è'_, even with verbs in the future tense and that no teacher or grammar book ever told me otherwise. Since I seem to be the only one on this thread, I thought my input might be interesting to non-natives. I wasn't arguing or telling others how to speak French.


----------



## James Bates

Is "tu es" pronounced "tu è"? If it is, does it sound exactly like "tuais" in "Je tuais"? If not, what's the difference?


----------



## tilt

James Bates said:
			
		

> Is "tu es" pronounced "tu è"? If it is, does it sound exactly like "tuais" in "Je tuais"? If not, what's the difference?



Yes it does sound the same.


----------



## James Bates

Thanks.
My French textbook says that "nous venons" and "nous ferons" are pronounced "nouv non" and "nouf ron" respectively. I was wondering if "nous faisons" would similarly be pronounce "nouf zon".
By the way, what exactly is the meaning of "Où allez-vous comme ça?"
Specifically, I know what "Où allez-vous" means but what does "comme ça" add?


----------



## tilt

I don't agrre with your manual!
I ususally say and hear "nou ve non" and "nou fe ron" or "nous fe zon". Of cours, in everyday life, we tend to shorten the words, but it is not a rule and it is never incorrect to detail all the syllables when speaking.

Litteraly, "comme ça" is "like that". For me, adding "comme ça" it at the end of the question implies the people you ask the question shouldn't go, or must at least first justify their will to go. The most important here is not where people go, but if they're allowed to.
Do other natives agree with me?


----------



## Auryn

Yes, I agree. Even when _reading_ the sentence "Où allez-vous comme ça?", I can _hear_ the suspicious tone


----------



## James Bates

tilt said:
			
		

> I don't agrre with your manual!
> I ususally say and hear "nou ve non" and "nou fe ron" or "nous fe zon". Of cours, in everyday life, we tend to shorten the words, but it is not a rule and it is never incorrect to detail all the syllables when speaking.


 
Okay, but do native speakers ever shorten "nous faisons" to "nouf zon" the way they do "nous venons" and "nous ferons"?


----------



## tilt

Yes, I can't find any reason which could make "noufzon" less usual than "nouvnon" or "noufron"...


----------



## Ahmed

What is the correct pronunciation of "Bruxelles"? Is it "bru sèl"?


----------



## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> What is the correct pronunciation of "Bruxelles"? Is it "bru sèl"?



Big question ! Even people living there do not all say it in the same way. I think the "correct" pronounciation is "bru sel", but some say "bruk sel".

It is the same for cities like Metz (mess / metss ?) or Auxerre (ossèr / aukssèr) !


----------



## James Bates

A question to those who pronounce "je vais", "je sais", and "j'ai" with é rather than è: how would you pronounce "vais-je", "sais-je", and "ai-je"? "véj", "séj", and "éj" or "vèj", "sèj", and "èj"?


----------



## Ahmed

I guess nobody pronounces them that way, James


----------



## Ahmed

Could a native please tell me how "préfèrerais" (as in "je préfèrerais") is pronounced? Is it pronounced "pré fè rè" or "pré fèr rè"? Thanks.


----------



## Vinh

"-rais" should be pronounced as "-rè", tho without context, there s no really means for a foreigner to make any difference between these

*1. "demain" and "deux mains",*
* 2. "Je dis" and "jeudi",*
*4. "bon ami" and "bonne amie",*
* 5. "Que demande-t-il?" and "Que demandent-ils?"*

Clearly, i think even a french could misunderstand if out of context. Regional accent apart, these tricks exists in other languages. Whatever the "good rules of pronunciations" are.


----------



## Ahmed

Thanks, but I wasn't asking about the pronunciation of the ending "-rais"! I was asking whether "préfèrerais" was pronounced "pré fè rè" or "pré fèr rè"? That is, do you sound the second "r" or drop it?


----------



## Vinh

Oh ok sorry, you pronounce the second "r".


----------



## James Bates

It seems that the "e" sound is usually dropped when dropping it doesn't result in three consonants coming together. For example, you say, "jes rai" for "je serai" and "douv nez vous" for "d'ou venez vous".

But what if you have a choice? I mean, what would you do in case of "vous revenez"? Would you drop the first "e" or the second? That is, would you say "vour venez" or "vous revnez"? You can't drop both because that would result in a violation of the loi des trois consonnes.

By the way, could somebody also tell me if "je te dis" is pronounced "jet dis" or "jte dis"? And are "paierai" and "essayerai" pronounced "pé ré" and "é sé ré" or "pèy ré" and "é sèy ré" or "pè ye ré" and "é sè ye ré"?


----------



## Kopydlow

In "vous revenez" I drop the first one : "vous r'venez"... but if I'm asking a question "vous revenez demain ?" I think I drop the second "vous rev'nez demain ?"


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Kopydlow said:
			
		

> In "vous revenez" I drop the first one : "vous r'venez"... but if I'm asking a question "vous revenez demain ?" I think I drop the second "vous rev'nez demain ?"


Dans le midi, on laisse tomber aucun "e" ! 

(t'es pas un vrai toulousain, toi ?  )


----------



## Kopydlow

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> (t'es pas un vrai toulousain, toi ?  )



J'suis un p'tit charentais expatrié à Toulouse et bientôt sur Paris... parce que "j'aime beaucouuup le france"


----------



## Kopydlow

My phonetics teacher (I'm studying linguistics in Toulouse) told me that you cannot drop the "e" of "cerise"... but I say "c'rise" [sriz]... She sucks


----------



## Vinh

James Bates said:
			
		

> But what if you have a choice? I mean, what would you do in case of "vous revenez"? Would you drop the first "e" or the second? That is, would you say "vour venez" or "vous revnez"? You can't drop both because that would result in a violation of the loi des trois consonnes.
> 
> By the way, could somebody also tell me if "je te dis" is pronounced "jet dis" or "jte dis"? And are "paierai" and "essayerai" pronounced "pé ré" and "é sé ré" or "pèy ré" and "é sèy ré" or "pè ye ré" and "é sè ye ré"?



1.don't drop anything and you won't get caught violating anything.
2."jte dis", but number #1, pronounce every syllable for safety.

The reason of 1. answer the regional dilemma, if you're fluent enough to make that kind of distinction, you will probably put it the right way just by listening to the locals. 

If not you ll be safe keeping everything in place  Just my opinion tho.


----------



## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Thanks, but I wasn't asking about the pronunciation of the ending "-rais"! I was asking whether "préfèrerais" was pronounced "pré fè rè" or "pré fèr rè"? That is, do you sound the second "r" or drop it?



As said before, do pronounce the 2nd "r", or you will be understood as saying "préférais" instead of "préférerais", which are not the same at all.


----------



## Sanda

Kopydlow said:
			
		

> My phonetics teacher (I'm studying linguistics in Toulouse) told me that you cannot drop the "e" of "cerise"... but I say "c'rise" [sriz]... She sucks



Well, I wouldn't follow that, James Bates. Manger des cerises, oui, mais manger des syllabes, bof. Si on dit "sriz", ça ne fait plus qu'une syllabe, au lieu de 2... et un alexandrin (ou autre) bancal dans un poème !

I agree with Vinh, don't drop syllables. If it were that normal/current to do so, we wouldn't have to sometimes write "j'vais t'casser la gueule" or "j'm'en fous" or "tu m'dis ça comme ça ?" or "eh, rev'nez, les gars" etc. to actually point out that we are dropping a syllable.


----------



## James Bates

Okay, thanks for the advice. Actually, I never dropped e's until I came across a French textbook that explicitly indicated e-dropping in verb conjugations. I guess things have changed since the seventies when the book was published. I know for a fact that French people don't usually drop the "q" in "cinq" when it's followed by a consonant, even though my textbook states otherwise. I even have an article on French phonetics that says the "t" in "sept" and the "f" in "neuf" are usually dropped when followed by a consonant! Can you believe that?

By the way, are "paierai" and "essayerai" pronounced "pé ré" and "é sé ré" or "pèy ré" and "é sèy ré" or "pè ye ré" and "é sè ye ré"?Thanks.


----------



## tilt

James Bates said:
			
		

> By the way, are "paierai" and "essayerai" pronounced "pé ré" and "é sé ré" or "pèy ré" and "é sèy ré" or "pè ye ré" and "é sè ye ré"?Thanks.


Formally, pronounce "pè ré" , but as mentionned before, almost everyone says "pè rè" and a lot even say "pè y(e) rè". The same for "essayer".

But please, are you so sure it really matters ?
If you, English speakers, you continue asking such questions, I promise I'll open a new thread about English pronounciation subtleties and let you debate about your own local accents, slangs and bad habits.


----------



## Sanda

tilt said:
			
		

> Formally, pronounce "pè ré" , but as mentionned before, almost everyone says "pè rè" and a lot even say "pè y(e) rè". The same for "essayer".
> 
> But please, are you so sure it really matters ?
> If you, English speakers, you continue asking such questions, I promise I'll open a new thread about English pronounciation subtleties and let you debate about your own local accents, slangs and bad habits.



C'mon Tilt, it matters to him  . I think it's great, and his questions are relevant. I understand his concern because I too need to do that with English (and Italian, and other languages, and French of course). And I believe this is the perfect place to do it, because "normal" foreign friends don't often understand why we go into what looks like subtleties to them.

"why do you say...", "when do you say...", "how do you say...", "to whom to you say...", etc.: that's one my favourite learning tools when I get to meet a native speaker!


----------



## tilt

Sanda said:
			
		

> C'mon Tilt, it matters to him  . I think it's great, and his questions are relevant. I understand his concern because I too need to do that with English (and Italian, and other languages, and French of course). And I believe this is the perfect place to do it, because "normal" foreign friends don't often understand why we go into what looks like subtleties to them.
> 
> "why do you say...", "when do you say...", "how do you say...", "to whom to you say...", etc.: that's one my favourite learning tools when I get to meet a native speaker!


Of course, I agree, this is the perfect place for such questions. And if I really got boared with them, I would have stop answering them, that's all.

But I wanted to point out that trying to master pronounciation subtleties may be vain, as they vary so much according to the country, the region, the education of the speaker. Even a same person may not always say things in the same way: I do say "nous rev'nons" as well as "nous r'venons", and be sure I absolutely don't know why...

Thus, I think it's impossible to give all these questions precise answers, and I would like our foreign friends to accept (sometimes) "_ça dépend_" as a satisfying answer.


----------



## Sanda

tilt said:
			
		

> Of course, I agree, this is the perfect place for such questions. And if I really got boared with them, I would have stop answering them, that's all.
> 
> But I wanted to point out that trying to master pronounciation subtleties may be vain, as they vary so much according to the country, the region, the education of the speaker. Even a same person may not always say things in the same way: I do say "nous rev'nons" as well as "nous r'venons", and be sure I absolutely don't know why...
> 
> Thus, I think it's impossible to give all these questions precise answers, and I would like our foreign friends to accept (sometimes) "_ça dépend_" as a satisfying answer.



I understand, and partly agree. Partly only, because when we're learning a language, we need a few things to lean on, be sure of. If we were told all the subtleties all at once right from the start, we'd never make it (well, I wouldn't  ). As far as French phonetics are concerned, I suppose the safe side is "don't drop syllables" (because you'll be closer to what's right), and the subtlety "many accents, many ways of speaking" (don't be surprised if you hear different options).

But I wouldn't call you a "boar" for all that!


----------



## dahut

Hello

I was told by a great French teacher the difference among French "e"s. I've never mastered them, though, but I found it quite useful.

I wasn't sure what "é", "è" really meant until someone (*thank-you*) used a phonetic symbol... I promise, you guys almost killed me of a heart attack! I found myself not to be able to pronounce a single word in French 



			
				Vinh said:
			
		

> 1.don't drop anything and you won't get caught violating anything.


 My French teacher told me, more or less, the same idea.
"_I want to hear all, if you have to drop something, it will come naturally or it won't come at all_".
I've learned that nobody will understand you better, if you try to sound too "native" before your time, if that _time_ ever comes, for the matter 

I asked him about accent rules once. "_Beauty_" answered he 
What if what you think is beautiful I think it isn't? I replied.
"_Then you'll have to follow what French people think sounds beautiful in French_".

Now, guys, you have to work a little bit harder in order to reach an agreement. Do it for us the non-native French speakers 

Yes, indeed, I still think French is one of the most beautiful languages ever


----------



## tilt

Sanda said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't call you a "boar" for all that!


Haha... Did I write that ???
My Gaulish roots, surely.


----------



## tilt

dahut said:
			
		

> My French teacher told me, more or less, the same idea.
> "_I want to hear all, if you have to drop something, it will come naturally or it won't come at all_".
> I've learned that nobody will understand you better, if you try to sound too "native" before your time, if that _time_ ever comes, for the matter
> 
> I asked him about accent rules once. "_Beauty_" answered he
> What if what you think is beautiful I think it isn't? I replied.
> "_Then you'll have to follow what French people think sounds beautiful in French_".
> 
> Now, guys, you have to work a little bit harder in order to reach an agreement. Do it for us the non-native French speakers
> 
> Yes, indeed, I still think French is one of the most beautiful languages ever


Well, I'm sure your French teacher was a good teacher.
Thanks for this very nice message. I'm not far from almost feeling nearly proud to be French.


----------



## fruey

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Could somebody tell me if the following phrases all rhyme? I mean if you remove the first letter from each of them will they sound exactly the same?
> 
> 1. bonne amie
> 2. son ami
> 3. ton ami
> 4. mon ami



In poetry, there are different rules. An e at the end of a line can be read as an extra syllable when it's a feminine agreement.


----------



## Sanda

dahut said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> I was told by a great French teacher the difference among French "e"s. I've never mastered them, though, but I found it quite useful.
> 
> I wasn't sure what "é", "è" really meant until someone (*thank-you*) used a phonetic symbol... I promise, you guys almost killed me of a heart attack! I found myself not to be able to pronounce a single word in French
> 
> My French teacher told me, more or less, the same idea.
> "_I want to hear all, if you have to drop something, it will come naturally or it won't come at all_".
> I've learned that nobody will understand you better, if you try to sound too "native" before your time, if that _time_ ever comes, for the matter
> 
> I asked him about accent rules once. "_Beauty_" answered he
> What if what you think is beautiful I think it isn't? I replied.
> "_Then you'll have to follow what French people think sounds beautiful in French_".
> 
> Now, guys, you have to work a little bit harder in order to reach an agreement. Do it for us the non-native French speakers
> 
> Yes, indeed, I still think French is one of the most beautiful languages ever



Very sensible teacher you have! What if you start dropping syllables with a native who has another accent? She/he may not understand you.

I think accents, colloquialisms, etc. are the most difficult things to grasp and use correctly in foreign languages. I always begin with "les classiques", even as far as accents go, they serve as a very sound basis to evolve from, to compare with.

I learned English abroad (in a country which had been colonised by the English, but at the American High School - don't ask me): my accent was American (as opposed to British), without a particular accent (sounded neither like a Redneck, nor like a Bostoner). When I got to England, I thought I should try to switch accents and work on a "British" accent (much harder to put on, IMO). That's where I discovered there existed thousands of accents in the UK, most of which I don't understand (pas l'habitude d'entendre...).

And, guess what, I was staying in Southend ("Soufend") and decided not to pick up that accent for a start! Woudn't I sound strange, as a foreigner, if I spoke the way the _Eastenders_ did (I watched it everyday and loved it)?. I remember a boy on the bus saying "oy loyke 'eavy me'al": would seem easier for the French to do without sounding "h" altogether! Nobody would think my English was any good if I dropped my hs.

Bref, tout ça pour dire qu'il faut se donner le choix, et pour ça partir du général et non du particulier (dans la mesure du possible). Et le général, c'est de ne pas lâcher des syllabes en cours de route sans savoir ce que l'on fait.


----------



## tilt

Sanda said:
			
		

> Bref, tout ça pour dire qu'il faut se donner le choix, et pour ça partir du général et non du particulier (dans la mesure du possible). Et le général, c'est de ne pas lâcher des syllabes en cours de route sans savoir ce que l'on fait.



Ite missa est, c'est la voix-même de la raison !


----------



## balaam

I may step in with some personal considerations, here.

I'm a native french speaker from Belgium and the great-father of my father was flamish speaker. my wife is french-speaker from Lorraine where german and french compete for dominance. 
word pronounciation is a daily discussion in my home.

Moreover, my wife is very talkative and use voice-over-IP with friends from all over the francophone country. I swear that I can tell the nationality or the region from her chatfriends by the way she speaks while replying on the microphone.

e.G. when she pronounce final -e where it is supposed to be mute, I know she talk with a french from Paris or are having live a long time in Paris. most of the time parisians pronounce the final -e EVEN IF HERE IS NO "-E" AT ALL !

influxion of sound "ou" is the landmark of quebecquois. the treatment receive by "R" is indicative of the proximity with the medditerannean sea.

remember this linguist in "my fair lady" ? he was able to determine social and geographical origins just hearing a few words.


in Bruxelles, where Wallons (French speaker) and flemishs (Dutch-speaker) mixed for more than a century, there is a traditional theatre play ("le mariage de madame Beulemans") where a brusseller family owner of an entreprise have an accountant from Paris. both accentuation are exaggerated, and the confrontation of oral habits constitue the main comic-relief.

I live in charleroi, a place that may be compare to the german rurh, the french Nancy, or american rust belt. the native have they own version of french, mildly understandable to Namur citizens (rural but weathy town), pitch-black for Bruxelles dwellers (federal and european capital) and easily catched by Liege inhabitants (a difficult to define place) ... whom germanized speaking may only be guessed the other. 
all that's cities are distant of 50 km or less.

by now, you may have undertand that it is no easy matter, be it on the  linguistic domain or politic implications.


----------



## Sanda

balaam said:
			
		

> e.G. when she pronounce final -e where it is supposed to be mute, I know she talk with a french from Paris or are having live a long time in Paris. most of the time parisians pronounce the final -e EVEN IF HERE IS NO "-E" AT ALL !



Ah, je crois que je vois ce que tu veux dire : c'est une espèce de mode assez récente (quelques années ?). C'est étrange, parce que ce sont normalement les gens du sud qui appuient le "e" final. But here in Paris and région parisienne, it is a very different way of sounding an invisible "e":

"ouais-e, tu vois-e". That's what you mean, right?


----------



## tilt

Sanda said:
			
		

> Ah, je crois que je vois ce que tu veux dire : c'est une espèce de mode assez récente (quelques années ?). C'est étrange, parce que ce sont normalement les gens du sud qui appuient le "e" final. But here in Paris and région parisienne, it is a very different way of sounding an invisible "e":
> 
> "ouais-e, tu vois-e". That's what you mean, right?



IMHO, it has to be heard not as an exagerated final "e" which, you told it, may even not exist, but a kind of everlasting hesitation about what will be the next words of their sentence:
"ouais, euh... tu vois, euh...  ce mec, euh... j'le kiffe trop, euh...".

I always get the feeling these people think slower than they speak, and it's highly annoying!


----------



## James Bates

Okay, I'm sorry if some of my questions are annoying (I admit I'm very meticulous when it comes to pronunciation), but I'm sure you'll all agree that the following questions are important 

1. How are "le six mai" and "le dix mai" pronounced? Is the final "x" dropped or pronounced "s"?

2. How are "le six août" and "le dix août" pronounced? Is the final "x" dropped, pronounced "s", or pronounced "z"?

3. How are "le huit mai" and "le huit août" pronounced"? Is the "t" dropped?

4. How are "le deux août" and "le trois août" pronounced?

5. Is the "six" in "j'en ai six à lire" pronounced "sis" or "siz"?

Thanks again


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

James Bates said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm sorry if some of my questions are annoying (I admit I'm very meticulous when it comes to pronunciation), but I'm sure you'll all agree that the following questions are important
> 
> 1. How are "le six mai" and "le dix mai" pronounced? Is the final "x" dropped or pronounced "s"?
> => dropped!
> 
> 2. How are "le six août" and "le dix août" pronounced? Is the final "x" dropped, pronounced "s", or pronounced "z"?
> => pronounced "z"!
> 
> 3. How are "le huit mai"
> => dropped!
> and "le huit août" pronounced"? Is the "t" dropped?
> => uitou!
> 
> 4. How are "le deux août" and "le trois août" pronounced?
> => pronounced "z" or dropped!
> => pronounced "ou" or "aoute"!
> 
> 5. Is the "six" in "j'en ai six à lire" pronounced "sis" or "siz"?
> => sis!
> 
> Thanks again


You're welcome!


			
				James Bates said:
			
		

> Actually, I never dropped e's until I came across a French textbook that explicitly indicated e-dropping in verb conjugations.


My advice: 
drop this book! 

P.S.: this is my pronounciation *only*!


----------



## timpeac

tilt said:
			
		

> Formally, pronounce "pè ré" , but as mentionned before, almost everyone says "pè rè" and a lot even say "pè y(e) rè". The same for "essayer".


So you would use è for the -ai of the future tense then? (like Auryn). In English schools they teach that the -ai of the future tense is é and the -ais of the conditional è.


----------



## tilt

James Bates said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm sorry if some of my questions are annoying (I admit I'm very meticulous when it comes to pronunciation), but I'm sure you'll all agree that the following questions are important



Sure enough!
If dropping rules may depende on the speaker and are always dispensable, slurs (is it the good word for language ? I use the music one by default) are highly important in French.
It may be very hard to understand someone who doesn't make them right.

Now, when I read KaRiNe_Fr answers, I start wondering why we make it "z" in "six août" and "s" in "six à lire"... How bizarre...


----------



## tilt

timpeac said:
			
		

> So you would use è for the -ai of the future tense then? (like Auryn). In English schools they teach that the -ai of the future tense is é and the -ais of the conditional è.


Yes. I think we said it somewhere in this thread already. Your teachers are theorically right, verbs ending with _ai_ (1st person of future but also of _passé simple_, to make it sound differently from _imparfait_) are supposed to be pronounced "é", and _ais_ is said "è".

But in practice, and for many years already, the "é" tends to vanish from our language in this case, both _ai_ and _ais _being said "è". Only the context may make the difference between future and conditionnal, then.
I would bet a lot of native French speakers even don't know they should say "é".


----------



## timpeac

tilt said:
			
		

> Yes. I think we said it somewhere in this thread already. Your teachers are theorically right, verbs ending with _ai_ (1st person of future but also of _passé simple_, to make it sound differently from _imparfait_) are supposed to be pronounced "é", and _ais_ is said "è".
> 
> But in practice, and for many years already, the "é" tends to vanish from our language in this case, both _ai_ and _ais _being said "è". Only the context may make the difference between future and conditionnal, then.
> I would bet a lot of native French speakers even don't know they should say "é".


Thanks. I was aware that the ai/ais difference was dying out - but I thought both sound more like é than è. I'll have to go and ask a few random colleagues and test my ears.


----------



## tilt

timpeac said:
			
		

> Thanks. I was aware that the ai/ais difference was dying out - but I thought both sound more like é than è. I'll have to go and ask a few random colleagues and test my ears.



I've been told, and I think it's true, that our ears miss training to hear sounds that don't exist in our mother tongue.

That's why so many French have trouble with the English "_th_", for example. And that's why an English friend of mine, when starting to learn French, found _poisson _et _puissant_ sounding the same, as they absolutely don't!

Thus, it make sense to imagine that it's difficult for English ears to make a real difference between "é" and "è".


----------



## timpeac

Perhaps - but it's quite a clear difference to my ear (actually, I've also taken a class in active listening and transcription of world phonetics). The 2 French guys I've just asked (without saying what I was listening to) say é for the future tense. Perhaps the é è difference at the end of the word is dying out, but in some regions to é and others, such as yours perhaps, to è.


----------



## Vinh

"è" 's not dead !
Don't listen too much to the Parisian's way of speaking


----------



## tilt

timpeac said:
			
		

> Perhaps the é è difference at the end of the word is dying out, but in some regions to é and others, such as yours perhaps, to è.



Are we going to face a war between _les Françé_ and _les Françè_ ?? 

At this level, it becomes a question of local accent, with an infinite number of variations between "é" and "è".


----------



## timpeac

tilt said:
			
		

> Are we going to face a war between _les Françé_ and _les Françè_ ??
> 
> At this level, it becomes a question of local accent, with an infinite number of variations between "é" and "è".


Yes - I'm sure that must be it. I don't mean to tell you what you are saying (I'm sure you know very well!!) It was just not what I was hearing these guys say. As you say - it must be a matter of local accent.


----------



## James Bates

I've noticed that "ou" before a vowel is pronounced "w", e.g. "oui" is "wi" and "ouais" is "wè". I was wondering if "où allons-nous" and "où étiez-vous" are similarly pronounced "wallons-nous" and "wétiez-vous.

By the way, can "nous serions" be contracted to "nous srions" just as "nous serons" and "nous ferons" are often contracted to "nous srons" and "nous frons"? I'm asking because whereas contracting "serons" and "ferons" would not result in a violation of the loi de trois consonnes, it seems a contraction of "serions" would, as, according to my book, it is pronounced "se ryon" in its uncontracted form.

Could the natives help me out here?


----------



## polaire

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Sorry, but the "e" sound in "jeudi", "je dis", "demain" and "deux mains" are the same. "je", "jeu", "de" and "deux" are a closed "e" like in "peu" or "feu", not an open "e" like in "bonheur", "peur" or "beurre"
> Hope it helps!


I read that the "e" sound in "deux" is subtly different, although perhaps only purists care about it.  In any event, the sound in "deux mains" is longer than in "demain," which ends up being pronounced more like "d'main."

If someone already addressed this, I apologize.  The thread's too long for me to read every entry with care.


----------



## polaire

timpeac said:
			
		

> Thanks. I was aware that the ai/ais difference was dying out - but I thought both sound more like é than è. I'll have to go and ask a few random colleagues and test my ears.


Someone told me once that while the difference is dying out in France, it's stringently maintained in Canada.

I observe the distinction, but I wonder sometimes if I sound fussy or old-fashioned.


----------



## polaire

Sanda said:
			
		

> Well, I wouldn't follow that, James Bates. Manger des cerises, oui, mais manger des syllabes, bof. Si on dit "sriz", ça ne fait plus qu'une syllabe, au lieu de 2... et un alexandrin (ou autre) bancal dans un poème !
> 
> I agree with Vinh, don't drop syllables. If it were that normal/current to do so, we wouldn't have to sometimes write "j'vais t'casser la gueule" or "j'm'en fous" or "tu m'dis ça comme ça ?" or "eh, rev'nez, les gars" etc. to actually point out that we are dropping a syllable.


I think it's a question of register.  I have a book prepared by phonetics experts and it provides explicit examples of sentences in which the vowel is dropped.


----------



## polaire

tilt said:
			
		

> Sure enough!
> If dropping rules may depende on the speaker and are always dispensable, slurs (is it the good word for language ? I use the music one by default) are highly important in French.
> It may be very hard to understand someone who doesn't make them right.
> 
> Now, when I read KaRiNe_Fr answers, I start wondering why we make it "z" in "six août" and "s" in "six à lire"... How bizarre...


The "linking of sounds" or something like that is preferable.  "To slur one's words" is pejorative in English.  It suggests sloppy enunciation, or a problem caused by being drunk or having a medical condition such as a stroke.


----------



## polaire

Vinh said:
			
		

> "-rais" should be pronounced as "-rè", tho without context, there s no really means for a foreigner to make any difference between these
> 
> *1. "demain" and "deux mains",*
> * 2. "Je dis" and "jeudi",*
> *4. "bon ami" and "bonne amie",*
> * 5. "Que demande-t-il?" and "Que demandent-ils?"*
> 
> Clearly, i think even a french could misunderstand if out of context. Regional accent apart, these tricks exists in other languages. Whatever the "good rules of pronunciations" are.


I made a comment on Point 1 elsewhere in the thread.  As for Point 4, I don't think that the o in "bon" and "bonne" sound at all alike.  The first is a nasal vowel.


----------



## polaire

There was a very funny scene involving pronunciation in the Audiard film _De battre mon coeur s'est arrêté_.  A Frenchman keeps correcting a foreign woman's pronunciation of the word "casserole."  

--Cassuhrole.

--Cass'role!  

--Cassuhrole.

--C'est cass'role!

Sometimes the problem is the adding of a syllable, not the dropping of one.


----------



## Auryn

timpeac said:
			
		

> So you would use è for the -ai of the future tense then? (like Auryn). In English schools they teach that the -ai of the future tense is é and the -ais of the conditional è.



I have to say that they sometimes teach stupid stuff in English schools. My boyfriend was taught to *pronounce* the -ent at the end of plural verbs, and so were many of my students!


----------



## polaire

Quote:
                                                 Originally Posted by *timpeac*
_So you would use è for the -ai of the future tense then? (like Auryn). In English schools they teach that the -ai of the future tense is é and the -ais of the conditional è._



I have to say that they teach some stupid stuff in English schools. My boyfriend was taught to *pronounce* the -ent at the end of plural verbs, and so were many of my students! 

_______________________________________________________________

--That's what I was taught, and I don't think it's incorrect.  It might sound dated or fussy to some people, but it's not the same thing as teaching people to pronoun "ent" at the end of plural verbs, or to pronounce "un" as the English word "urn."


----------



## CARNESECCHI

My "salt grain"
The rule I was taught (my father was a school teacher, old style) is "ai" = "è", with some exceptions like when followed by "n" (and not n+ vowel) or "ll" which steal the "i" so the sound becomes "*in*" or "*aï*"...
But, everyday when I dont take care, I pronounce sometimes "é" because it's easier (I'm so tired!!!)

And about the "ent" :
"Les poules du couvent couvent" = "lé poul du couvan couv", no doubt!


----------



## timpeac

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> My "salt grain"
> The rule I was taught (my father was a school teacher, old style) is "ai" = "è", with some exceptions like when followed by "n" (and not n+ vowel) or "ll" which steal the "i" so the sound becomes "*in*" or "*aï*"...
> But, everyday when I dont take care, I pronounce sometimes "é" because it's easier (I'm so tired!!!)
> 
> And about the "ent" :
> "Les poules du couvent couvent" = "lé poul du couvan couv", no doubt!


So for your father would "chanterai" and "chanterais" be pronounced the same way or did he advocate another pronunciation for the "ais"?


----------



## LV4-26

I am a native.

Until late in life (20 or so) I never really made nor heard the difference between é and è. I'm not even sure I realized there was one. It wasn't until my theater classes that I was taught that _chanterai_ should be [chanteré] and _chanterais_ must be pronounced [chanterè].
Even later, when I met my wife, she got confused when I spoke about _les marais_ because she thought I was saying_ "les marées".
_I think I caught that habit in Ivory Coast where I was born and where my schoolmates (African but also European) only used the [é] sound.
Even nowadays I sometimes have difficulties in pronouncing a proper 'è', (although the problem seems only to concern final [è]s : a word like _crème_ is OK for me).

The opposite tendency (only [è]s) is particularly common among the young generation of singers. The vowel [è] is more open than [é] and therefore, is more "gratifying" to sing. Maybe it is contaminating the way they speak and the way everybody speaks.


----------



## CARNESECCHI

timpeac said:
			
		

> So for your father would "chanterai" and "chanterais" be pronounced the same way or did he advocate another pronunciation for the "ais"?


He made the same sound "è" for both, and especialy for dictations, the sound was very clear.


----------



## Vinh

polaire said:
			
		

> I made a comment on Point 1 elsewhere in the thread.  As for Point 4, I don't think that the o in "bon" and "bonne" sound at all alike.  The first is a nasal vowel.



Let's see how you deal with that in a daily basis, you're in the street and here you go, spelling like a speech therapist... 

A lot of rules exists to normalize spelling, but i really doubt it covers the regional accent, the slangs drifts and other little marginal spellings.

At least i would say it preserves some cultural aspect of a living language, things that makes it interesting to understand "live" and not through writings.

Indeed, "bon" and "bonne" have specific rules, both with "demain" and "deux mains", tho, i defy you to spell it correctly in a normal common way without having your interlocutor raising an eyebrow.

I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, but, i'm not even sure there's a correct spelling after all. 

Who can tell which french accent is the right one ? South, North, Canadian, Parisian ? And my real point was to say that even a french native can be misleaded without context.

Semantic confusion exists as well. Like "Pipe" in french, without context, no need to get in the pronunciation to misunderstand it. Any rules for that ?

Friendly


----------



## polaire

Vinh said:
			
		

> Let's see how you deal with that in a daily basis, you're in the street and here you go, *spelling like a speech therapist...
> 
> A lot of rules exists to normalize spelling, but i really doubt it covers the regional accent, the slangs drifts and other little marginal spellings.*
> 
> At least i would say it preserves some cultural aspect of a living language, things that makes it interesting to understand "live" and not through writings.
> 
> Indeed, "bon" and "bonne" have specific rules, both with "demain" and "deux mains", tho, i defy you to spell it correctly in a normal common way without having your interlocutor raising an eyebrow.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, but, i'm not even sure there's a correct spelling after all.
> 
> * Who can tell which french accent is the right one ?* South, North, Canadian, Parisian ? And my real point was to say that even a french native can be misleaded without context.
> 
> Semantic confusion exists as well. Like "Pipe" in french, without context, no need to get in the pronunciation to misunderstand it. Any rules for that ?
> 
> Friendly


Vinh,

All I can say is that foreigners typically are taught the Parisian accent, which is considered standard.  My teachers in high school (most of whom were French) spoke it.  The people on my Hachette tape prepared as part of the Sorbonne's Francais langue etrangere program speak it.  My teacher at the Alliance Francaise speaks it.  The people on RFI speak it.  Yes, there may be slight variations, but basically it's the same accent.

I don't consider trying to speak properly the same thing as consulting a speech therapist.  "Bon" and "bonne," which I thought you were saying in your earlier post could be pronounced more or less the same, sound very different in a Parisian accent.  Non-native speakers who want to develop an excellent clear accent in French have to pay close attention to numerous little details.

Although there are cultural implications in the use of any accent, foreigners always do best to develop the accent that is considered standard.  For example, I'm an American, but if I my kid were for some reason learning English in England, I would want him or her to learn some version of Received Pronunciation.  I like many British regional accents, but they are harder to understand if you're not from that area and if one wants to enter fields like the media, one has to learn to speak "BBC"/'Oxbridge"/RP/"International English" -- whatever they call it these days.

I understand that some people may be offended.  If so, I'm sorry, but if you are a foreigner you have no real idea how you sound in someone else's language, so it's best to go with what is considered standard.


----------



## polaire

Vinh said:
			
		

> Let's see how you deal with that in a daily basis, you're in the street and here you go, spelling like a speech therapist...
> 
> A lot of rules exists to normalize spelling, but i really doubt it covers the regional accent, the slangs drifts and other little marginal spellings.
> 
> At least i would say it preserves some cultural aspect of a living language, things that makes it interesting to understand "live" and not through writings.
> 
> Indeed, "bon" and "bonne" have specific rules, both with "demain" and "deux mains", tho, i defy you to spell it correctly in a normal common way without having your interlocutor raising an eyebrow.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, but, i'm not even sure there's a correct spelling after all.
> 
> Who can tell which french accent is the right one ? South, North, Canadian, Parisian ? And my real point was to say that even a french native can be misleaded without context.
> 
> Semantic confusion exists as well. Like "Pipe" in french, without context, no need to get in the pronunciation to misunderstand it. Any rules for that ?
> 
> Friendly


Needless to say, if I'm ever able to live in France for an extended time, I'll listen to how educated people speak and make adjustments.  More than once I've posted comments in this forum asking whether such-and-such a usage sounded old-fashioned, stuffy, or precious.  For now, I'm going to follow the examples of the professionals who are trying to help foreigners develop a good accent, not just create my own Polaire-accent.  That would be far easier. 

Yes, the actors/language teachers speak much more clearly than the ordinary person, but, to borrow a line from _The Maltese Falcon_, "What do you want me to do, learn to stutter?"


----------



## Sanda

Vinh said:
			
		

> Let's see how you deal with that in a daily basis, you're in the street and here you go, spelling like a speech therapist...



You were quoting Polaire about "bon" and "bonne" (I don't know how to quote two posts at once ): I agree with Polaire that these two are different. I actually don't consider the "o" in "bon" as an "o" because it is combined with an "n", which makes it an altogether different sound (Polaire called it "nasal"). So we have the "on" sound, and an open o sound for "bonne".

It is a bit tricky though. When "bon" is followed by a vowel, it may either retain its "on" sound, or turn into an "onne" sound:
- "bon an, mal an"  liaison between "bon" and "an" makes us drop the "on" sound: sounds "bonne an" - same thing for "bon anniversaire" which actually sounds "bonne anniversaire" - "le bon usage des liaisons" also sounds "bonne", etc.
- "c'est un bon à rien"  ici une préposition suit l'adjectif, on ne fait pas de liaison: sounds "bon-a" - same thing for "il est bon en maths", or "il est bon avec les enfants".


----------



## LV4-26

The result is that when you say
_Mon_ _bon ami_ or _ma __bonne amie,_ the parts in blue sound exactly the same.


----------



## CARNESECCHI

Hello,


			
				LV4-26 said:
			
		

> The result is that when you say
> _Mon_ _bon ami_ or _ma __bonne amie,_ the parts in blue sound exactly the same.


 
You know what?
To pronounce it correctly, you should insist on the "nn", you should also pronounce "i" and "ie" differently : "i" is a short sound ending abruptly, while "ie" is slightly longer and gets a little bit of "ille".
Then you would hear
Mon bonami
Ma bonnamye
I know it's not everyday speech, but dictations should be done this way, as in classic theater


----------



## LV4-26

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> I know it's not everyday speech, but dictations should be done this way, as in classic theater


Come on ! That would be too easy . I mean with the possessive "_mon_ vs _ma_", the pupils should be able to know how to spell the last two words. 
That reminds me of Marcel Pagnol's "Revenons à nos_ moutonsses" (Topaze) _


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> That reminds me of Marcel Pagnol's "Revenons à nos_ moutonsses" (Topaze) _


Entendu en classe dans ma jeunesse "les moutonsses pèssinte" (les moutons paissent). C'est de la "désarticulation" de mots ça ou je ne m'y connais pas.


----------



## Vinh

Let me apologize first, you missed the part where i said :

_I'm not saying you're wrong, *not at all*, but, *i*'m not even sure there's a correct spelling after all. _

As a matter of fact, yes, it is considered a standard accent. Although, as a student i learned to question straight opinions (_orthodoxa_), and that's my point.

_I don't consider trying to speak properly the same thing as consulting a speech therapist. 

_Carnsecci said : 
_Then you would hear
Mon bonami
Ma bonnamye
_
This is how you get corrected by a speech therapist too. You caricaturize every phonems, this is also how teachers tips the students in the early dictations.

My question is exactly that, what is an excellent clear accent ? something inline with the purpose of the language ? Still, you're right, that s how people learn the language, and how it's been taught, but when it comes to speak properly, it means also speak in your time and place, and fulfill the purpose of the language : communicate. (and i mean in the broad sense, like transporting cultural traits.)

You're right for the theory, in practice, my statement stands.

And you just point the fact that i'm not speaking properly 



			
				polaire said:
			
		

> I understand that some people may be offended.



No offense taken 

I learned english in books, and practiced it in Scotland, i'm happy with that, rolling the 'r' is fun and easy for a frenchy. Tho, i try some effort to adapt myself when i move to another english accent region.

Once again, this is not a flame but more or less my opinion.

"Bon ami" and "bonne amie" sadly get the same spelling for me, i need to read it or be in the context to understand it. Worse, i'm a french native.


----------



## Vinh

polaire said:
			
		

> Yes, the actors/language teachers speak much more clearly than the ordinary person, but, to borrow a line from _The Maltese Falcon_, "What do you want me to do, learn to stutter?"



Oh i get it now, so much noise for nothing 

Sorry Polaire you're absolutely right, i didn't put in perspective your point of view. But i can explain that, i'm a consumer, i learn what's needed when i need it, hence, i'm not flying higher than the common "vocable".

I'm pissed, people are too smart here


----------



## tilt

Vinh said:
			
		

> "Bon ami" and "bonne amie" sadly get the same spelling for me, i need to read it or be in the context to understand it. Worse, i'm a french native.



There's nothing bad in this, especially for natives !
If there was any necessity for the distinction do be made, people would do it. We don't precisely because ususally, the context is enough.

Come on ! Some verbs in French have 2 opposite meanings (louer, apprendre), and we get along with this. So why worrying about some pronounciation similarities between genders ?


----------



## ChiMike

belkira said:
			
		

> Ok that's always nice to see how differences can be huge in pronunciation from a place to another.
> 
> It's sure than in my region, i get the difference between bon ami and bonne amie. I trust you when you say it is not the same for you. But i will never be agree if you say that's useless. Differenciate feminine from masculine in a sentence, sounds for me like something useful !


 
Du moins, c'est ce qu'ont pensé les italiens et les espagnols,les provençaux, et même les gascons. Quand j'étais jeune, j'ai passé l'été avec un ami américain dont la mère était belge de naissance à Menton. Nous nous sommes bien amusés et avons amélioré notre français en jasant aussi souvent que possible avec les habitants des environs.

Au retour, sa mère était horrifiée de l'amélioration phonétique qu'il avait apprise!
Ma tante, institutrice de français, mais née vers 1900 à Lucques, m'a félicité d'avoir apprécié le lien entre le français, l'italien, et le latin. Mais elle a remarqué: Chi lingua ha, a Roma va! Però non sempre a Prarigi!"
"Qui a une langue peut trouver le chemin à Rome! Mais pas toujours à Paris!"


----------



## Ahmed

Do "loua" ("he rented") and "noua" ("he knotted, he tied") sound the same as loi ("law") and noix ("walnut") respectively?


----------



## zaby

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Do "loua" ("he rented") and "noua" ("he knotted, he tied") sound the same as loi ("law") and noix ("walnut") respectively?


 
almost 
In _loua_ and _noua_, the sound "ou" is longer than in _loi_ and _noix._


----------



## Agnès E.

Yes, indeed.

_Loi_ and _noix_ sound like shortly pronounced *loa* and *noa*, whereas _loua_ and _noua_ clearly sound the way they are spelled.


----------



## Ahmed

Thanks 
What about "jouer", "jouons", "jouet", and"jouis"? Are they pronounced they way they are spelled? Or is the "ou" pronounced "w"?


----------



## Agnès E.

No, this *w* would be more the equivalent of a *oi* sound.

Here, you want to clearly pronounce *jou-é*, *jou-on*, *jou-è*, *jou-i* (like in oui => ou-i) instead.


----------



## polaire

Vinh said:
			
		

> Oh i get it now, so much noise for nothing
> 
> Sorry Polaire you're absolutely right, i didn't put in perspective your point of view. But i can explain that, i'm a consumer, i learn what's needed when i need it, hence, i'm not flying higher than the common "vocable".
> 
> I'm pissed, people are too smart here



Sorry, Vinh, I'm just catching up on my reading.  Yeah,* if you're a foreigner living outside France and with only limited access to French people, you sort of have to do it by the book or by the tape.  The ones I have are well designed, trying not only to teach pronunciation but something about French culture.  They use examples from all levels of speech. The one prepared by people at the Sorbonne even features insults.   

*Casual form of "yes."


----------



## polaire

Vinh said:
			
		

> Let me apologize first, you missed the part where i said :
> 
> _I'm not saying you're wrong, *not at all*, but, *i*'m not even sure there's a correct spelling after all. _
> 
> As a matter of fact, yes, it is considered a standard accent. Although, as a student i learned to question straight opinions (_orthodoxa_), and that's my point.
> 
> _I don't consider trying to speak properly the same thing as consulting a speech therapist.
> 
> _Carnsecci said :
> _Then you would hear
> Mon bonami
> Ma bonnamye
> _
> This is how you get corrected by a speech therapist too. You caricaturize every phonems, this is also how teachers tips the students in the early dictations.
> 
> My question is exactly that, what is an excellent clear accent ? something inline with the purpose of the language ? Still, you're right, that s how people learn the language, and how it's been taught, but when it comes to speak properly, it means also speak in your time and place, and fulfill the purpose of the language : communicate. (and i mean in the broad sense, like transporting cultural traits.)
> 
> You're right for the theory, in practice, my statement stands.
> 
> And you just point the fact that i'm not speaking properly
> 
> 
> *
> No offense taken
> *
> I learned english in books, and practiced it in Scotland, i'm happy with that, rolling the 'r' is fun and easy for a frenchy. Tho, i try some effort to adapt myself when i move to another english accent region.
> 
> Once again, this is not a flame but more or less my opinion.
> 
> "Bon ami" and "bonne amie" sadly get the same spelling for me, i need to read it or be in the context to understand it. Worse, i'm a french native.



I'm happy to hear that.


----------



## agoodeno

Just wondering:

How do the French distinguish between "Je voudrais réserver une chambre pour cette nuit" and "Je voudrais réserver une chambre pour sept nuits" when booking a hotel room?

Alan


----------



## Lezert

On fait comme dans n'importe quelle langue quand on craint une ambiguïté: on précise dans une autre phrase...
We do as i suppose you do in your mother language when it may occur some mistake, we precise in another sentence...


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Lezert said:
			
		

> On fait comme dans n'importe quelle langue quand on craint une ambiguïté: on précise dans une autre phrase...
> We do as i suppose you do in your mother language when it may occur some mistake, we precise in another sentence...


Je suis bien d'accord !  
Six plus une : sept !


----------



## LV4-26

Lezert said:
			
		

> On fait comme dans n'importe quelle langue quand on craint une ambiguïté: on précise dans une autre phrase...
> We do as i suppose you do in your mother language when it may occur some mistake, we precise in another sentence...


 Ou alors, on attend que l'interlocuteur pose la question :
- Je voudrais une chambre pour cette nuit
- Vous voulez dire pour la nuit qui vient ou pour une semaine ?
- Non, non, pour ce soir.


----------



## viera

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Thanks
> What about "jouer", "jouons", "jouet", and"jouis"? Are they pronounced they way they are spelled? Or is the "ou" pronounced "w"?


I would say that "jouis" is pronounced differently from the other three.  It is shorter and pronounced as one syllable "jwee".
In the other 3, you hear two syllables:  "joo-way" for jouer


----------



## Lezert

évidemment, pour les gens du sud de la France, il n'y a pas confusion, car on prononce le "e" de cette....


----------



## virtdave

whew!! I just plowed through this thread (is 146 posts on a thread a record for this site?) and found it fascinating.  Two comments:
1) as to dropped internal vowels: folks here (Limousin) did not understand me when I asked for 'gap-err-ohn' , but did when I said 'gaprohn'.  Good cheese, too.
2) one of the more useful French pronunciation websites I've found (though still a bit incomplete) is
http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/homophones.htm

and this one, which lets you hear a native speaker pronounce hundreds of words (use the 'reload' button to repeat a word):
http://french.about.com/library/pronunciation/bl-audiodico.htm


----------



## willeman3

agoodeno said:
			
		

> Just wondering:
> 
> How do the French distinguish between "Je voudrai une chambre pour cette nuit" and "Je voudrai une chambre pour sept nuits" when booking a hotel room?
> 
> Alan


I definitely think you can disting it... you just have to *insist on the "sept"*, because if it had been _"cette"_, you would not have do it : it wouldn't have been ambigous ( these 2 last parts of my sentance may not be correct :/ please correct me if i'm mistaken ).

Hope that helps.


----------



## Ahmed

Lezert said:
			
		

> évidemment, pour les gens du sud de la France, il n'y a pas confusion, car on prononce le "e" de cette....


 
Uh, shouldn't it have been "il n'y a pas *de* confusion"? If not, then what difference would "de" have made?


----------



## Lezert

french is my mother language, but i am not sure to speak "academic" french.Nevertheless, i think that in this case, we can put "de" or not, and that there is no difference.
wait for grammar specialist to answer


----------



## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Uh, shouldn't it have been "il n'y a pas *de* confusion"? If not, then what difference would "de" have made?



There's no difference at all, I'm even not sure which one is supposed to be the most formal.
Anyway, keep using "_de_" after "_il n'y a pas_" because when it is not optional, it is necessary.


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## Ahmed

virtdave said:
			
		

> and this one, which lets you hear a native speaker pronounce hundreds of words (use the 'reload' button to repeat a word):***


 
I think you should take the latter site with a grain of salt; it says that "et" and "est" are homophones. In another place it says that "j'ai" is pronounced the same way as "g".


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## Gardefeu

> 4. How are "le deux août" and "le trois août" pronounced?
> => pronounced "z" or dropped!
> => pronounced "ou" or "aoute"!



My son was born on August 2; his mother and I soon found out that pronouncing "le deux* z*août" (with the liaison) unescapably led people to understand "le douze août" (August 12). We have ever since dropped this wretched z and pronounce le deu août, although it _does_ sound less correct.


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## virtdave

I usually sneak around this by saying _le deux du mois d'août._


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## virtdave

Ahmed said:
			
		

> I think you should take the latter site with a grain of salt; it says that "et" and "est" are homophones. In another place it says that "j'ai" is pronounced the same way as "g".



Not sure if you mean the site about homophones (which was the first site I mentioned)--but in any case, I think the homophone site, though perhaps not totally consistent with perfect French pronounciation) gives non native speakers an idea of what's possible.  For instance, it was a revelation to me to have a native French speaker tell me (though this is not on the homophone site) that _Caen_ (the city) and _quand_ were homophones.


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## Ahmed

virtdave said:
			
		

> Not sure if you mean the site about homophones (which was the first site I mentioned)--but in any case, I think the homophone site, though perhaps not totally consistent with perfect French pronounciation) gives non native speakers an idea of what's possible. For instance, it was a revelation to me to have a native French speaker tell me (though this is not on the homophone site) that _Caen_ (the city) and _quand_ were homophones.


 
Yeah, sorry, I meant the first site.


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,


			
				tilt said:
			
		

> There's no difference at all, I'm even not sure which one is supposed to be the most formal.
> Anyway, keep using "_de_" after "_il n'y a pas_" because when it is not optional, it is necessary.


Si je puis me permettre :
"Il n 'y a pas confusion" dans le sens "on ne peut pas confondre" est incorrecte de multiples façons. Des formes correctes seraient "il ne *peut* pas y avoir *de* confusion (entre .... et ...)" ou "il n'y a pas *de* confusion *possible *(entre ... et ...)" ou "on ne peut pas faire de confusion (entre ... et ...)".

L'expression "il n'y a pas photo" (ou autre) est devenu tellement familière qu'on a oublié que c'était une forme familière.
Pour mémoire, "il n'y a pas photo" vient du monde des courses et de l'athlétisme et signifie "il n'est pas nécessaire de vérifier comme sur les photos d'arrivée des course, c'est évident!", ce qui est complètement différent de "il n'y a pas *de* photo" qui veut dire ... "Il n'y a pas de photo, elle n'a pas été prise, ou elle est perdue, ou elle est ailleurs".


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## tilt

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Si je puis me permettre :



Mais permets-toi, permets-toi ! Nous sommes là pour ça !
En plus, tu as entièrement raison.


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## Ahmed

Could a native please tell me whether the "ôle" in "je contr*ôle*" is pronounced like the "aul" in "P*aul*" or like the "ôle" in "dr*ôle*"? Thanks.


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## zaby

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Could a native please tell me whether the "ôle" in "je contr*ôle*" is pronounced like the "aul" in "P*aul*" or like the "ôle" in "dr*ôle*"? Thanks.


It is pronouced like in "dr*ôle*"

When the is an accent ^ on the 'o', it is always pronouced this way


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## CARNESECCHI

zaby said:
			
		

> When the is an accent ^ on the 'o', it is always pronouced this way


Seulement si l'accent tonique est sur le "ô", me semble-t-il. Par exemple, dans "hôtel", l'accent tonique est sur "tel", donc le "ô" est fermé, comme dans "autel"


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## zaby

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Seulement si l'accent tonique est sur le "ô", me semble-t-il. Par exemple, dans "hôtel", l'accent tonique est sur "tel", donc le "ô" est fermé, comme dans "autel"


 
Le fait est que je prononce de la même manière le o de drôle, contrôle, hôtel et autel : ce sont tous des o fermés pour la parisienne que je suis


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## Lezert

that's this little thing that makes difference between south of France people,  (like me...) : they don't pronounce the  ^ : ("drole", "controle" "Paul" are pronounced like "folle" )


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## CARNESECCHI

Finalement, rien ne vaut un Auvergnat d'adoption né en Kabylie, de père Italien et de mère Pied-noir pour trouver l'accent tonique en français!


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## Ariesguy

When I teach, I always tell my students that I teach the way that I was taught, but that they will hear other accents depending on who is speaking, where they're from, etc. so keep an open mind!


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## James Bates

Can "nous serions" be contracted to "nous srions" just as "nous serons" and "nous ferons" are often contracted to "nous srons" and "nous frons"? I'm asking because whereas contracting "serons" and "ferons" would not result in a violation of the loi de trois consonnes, it seems a contraction of "serions" would, as, according to my book, it is pronounced "se ryon" in its uncontracted form.


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## viera

"Nous serons" and "nous ferons" pronounced "srons, frons" sounds fine to me and that's the way I prounce them.
But "nous serions" and "nous ferions" do not sound natural to me when contracted.  Difficult to pronounce too.

What is "la loi des trois consonnes"?


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## polaire

viera said:
			
		

> "Nous serons" and "nous ferons" pronounced "srons, frons" sounds fine to me and that's the way I prounce them.
> But "nous serions" and "nous ferions" do not sound natural to me when contracted.  Difficult to pronounce too.
> 
> * What is "la loi des trois consonnes*"?



Je me demandais la même chose.


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## polaire

How many syllables does the following word have?  In normal speech (not extra slow) I've always heard it pronounced as three:  "pâtisserie."


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## Auryn

polaire said:
			
		

> How many syllables does the following word have?  In normal speech (not extra slow) I've always heard it pronounced as three:  "pâtisserie."



Yes, three: pâ-tiss-rie.


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## polaire

Auryn said:
			
		

> Yes, three: pâ-tiss-rie.



Thanks.  As noted, I can't imagine anyone except a foreigner saying it any other way.


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## Auryn

polaire said:
			
		

> Thanks.  As noted, I can't imagine anyone except a foreigner saying it any other way.


In the south of France people do pronounce the 'e' though, even when speaking fast. 

Only foreigners who actually live there and contribute to the economy are allowed to copy their accent


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## polaire

Here's a link that might be of interest.  It features free samples of listening and pronunciation exercises and you can sign up for a free email newsletter that sends additional samples, once a month, I think.  I used to subscribe to this service and thought it was very good and quite reasonably priced.

Full Disclosure:  I have no connection to this company.  

http://www.fluentfrench.com/s.nl/it.I/id.33/.f


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## tilt

viera said:
			
		

> What is "la loi des trois consonnes"?



Si j'ai bien compris ce que nos amis anglophones ont expliqué, la "loi des 3 consonnes" dit qu'on ne rend jamais un "e" muet si ça oblige à prononcer 3 consonnes d'affilée.


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## CARNESECCHI

hello,
Mais "srions" ne viole pas la règle des trois consonnes! Et on peut dire "nousrionsla"


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## Auryn

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> hello,
> Mais "srions" ne viole pas la règle des trois consonnes! Et on peut dire "nousrionsla"



On peut mais c'est du sport! Le 'ion' ne facilite pas les choses.


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## tilt

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> hello,
> Mais "srions" ne viole pas la règle des trois consonnes! Et on peut dire "nousrionsla"



La règle des 3 consonnes ne dit pas que l'élision du _e _n'est pas interdite dans d'autres cas !
Quant aux 3 consonnes à considérer, elles sont, je pense, des consonnes vocale, qu'on entend, pas comme le _s_ final de _serions_. Exemple : _Bretagne_ ne deviendra jamais _Brtagne_ (et c'est tant mieux !)


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## Ahmed

My dictionary says "essayer" is pronounced "é sé yé". I guess I can safely assume "essayez" is pronounced the same way. But what about "ayez" (the imperative from "avoir")? That's pronounced "*è* yé", isn't it? What about "payez"? Is it pronounced "pé yé"?
And what about "essaie" and "paie"? Are they pronounced "é sé" and "pé"? I know "aie" (another imperative from "avoir") is pronounced "è", not "é".
Last but not least, what about "essayons" and "payons"? Once again, I know "ayons" (yet another imperative from "avoir") is pronounced "*è* yon".

Also, could a native please tell me if there's any audible difference between "neuf" and "nèf"?

Thanks


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## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> My dictionary says "essayer" is pronounced "é sé yé". I guess I can safely assume "essayez" is pronounced the same way. But what about "ayez" (the imperative from "avoir")? That's pronounced "*è* yé", isn't it? What about "payez"? Is it pronounced "pé yé"?
> And what about "essaie" and "paie"? Are they pronounced "é sé" and "pé"? I know "aie" (another imperative from "avoir") is pronounced "è", not "é".
> Last but not least, what about "essayons" and "payons"? Once again, I know "ayons" (yet another imperative from "avoir") is pronounced "*è* yon".
> 
> Also, could a native please tell me if there's any audible difference between "neuf" and "nèf"?
> 
> Thanks


Most of the answers you may get depend on the local accent of the speaker !
According to dictionnaries, all the "ay" you give should be said *è* and not *é*!
é sè yé - è yé - pè yé - é sè - é sè yon - pè yon - è yon...
_Paie _is an exception as its end is said as the english _pay_ (maybe to avoid confusion with _paix_?), but the vowel is still *è*.

_Nèf_ is not a French word. You may mean _nef_, which can be a boat or part of a church. The sound is very different between _nèf _(vowel *è*) and _neuf _(vowel *e*, like the English _u_ of _cut_)


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## wonderful

tilt said:
			
		

> I know that some people say "_bon-nami_", but IMHO, it is not "good" French.
> As "_bon_" it is followed by a vowel here (1st letter of "_ami_"), its final "n" has to be pronounced with this vowel, and not with its preceeding "o" anymore.
> Thus, "bon ami" becomes the same as "bonne ami".
> 
> Some people also pronounce a slight "e" at the end of "amie", but it sounds a bit ridiculous and totaly useless to me.


 
I would say that there is a difference in the pronounciation between bon ami et bonne amie , the difference is hard to explain but it is the way of pronoucing the following: "b*on* ami" "b*onne* amie". 

The way of pronouncing the sound "on" or "onne" is not the same. And we can notice a difference when we pronounce them " moving of lips, tongue, ..."

This is the way we pronounce it where I live and as I have always heard it pronounced... I just wanted to give my opinion


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## polaire

wonderful said:
			
		

> *I would say that there is a difference in the pronounciation between bon ami et bonne amie *, the difference is hard to explain but it is the way of pronoucing the following: "b*on* ami" "b*onne* amie".
> 
> The way of pronouncing the sound "on" or "onne" is not the same. And we can notice a difference when we pronounce them " moving of lips, tongue, ..."
> 
> This is the way we pronounce it where I live and as I have always heard it pronounced... I just wanted to give my opinion


Your opinion is what I learned.  Here's a link to the voice synthesizer program that others have recommended.  I don't think it's an infallible way of learning an accent, by the way, but it's better than nothing.  This is interesting, however:  When I typed in "bon ami" and then "bonne amie,"  to my surprise, the combinations didn't sound much different.  But when I typed in "mon ami,"  the "o" was nasal.  I learned to pronounce "o"s in "bon" and "mon" with a pronounced nasal "o" as you did.

Maybe bon/bonne ami[e] is a special case?

One of my Phonétique pronunciation cassettes has a series of listening exercises for distinguishing the nasal and [non-nasal?] "o".  You have indicate which of the following was said:

Pont/pomme
tonne/ton
*bon/bonne*
donne/don,

and so forth.  

http://demo.acapela-group.com/


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## timpeac

In my Romance linguistics course I was taught that the French nasal vowels denasalise before vowels (plus the -n) and thus sound like the feminine equivalents. I don't necessarily claim that this is true for all accents, and have been surprised and interested by the amount of discussion and variation between natives above, but it does sound the same to me in the Parisian accents I have heard - even denasalising sometimes before an "n". In particular, I remember when I didn't know the set phrase "à main nue" and I thought there was an adverb (not having read the phrase only heard it) "amanu". They also seem to say "bonne amie" and "bon ami" the same, at least to my ear.


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## sasi kala

Thankyou zaby,,, 
    really it is a very usefull site to learn french pronounciation(language guide .org)   . If you have more sites like that please send me

thank you


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## Auryn

Ça me rappelle l'histoire de cette dame qui commande un gâteau d'anniversaire dans une boulangerie. Elle précise bien à la boulangère d'écrire "Bon Anniversaire" dessus. Mais quand elle revient chercher le gâteau, elle voit que le texte dit "Bonne Anniversaire". Elle se plaint de la faute à la boulangère qui lui répond: "Ah bon, je n'avais pas compris que c'était pour un garçon!"


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## agoodeno

And just when you thought this thread had finally died:

Is there a difference in pronounciation of quand and qu'on? If not, then how can I tell which one the speaker meant?

Alan


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## timpeac

agoodeno said:
			
		

> And just when you thought this thread had finally died:
> 
> Is there a difference in pronounciation of quand and qu'on? If not, then how can I tell which one the speaker meant?
> 
> Alan


There is - it's the same difference as between either "an" or "en" (which both sound the same) and "on".

The "an"/"en" one is like saying "ahhh" for the dentist then nasalising it and the "on" one is making a "o" with your lips very round and then nasalising it.

an on
blanc blond
sans son
mens mon

etc


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## CARNESECCHI

agoodeno said:
			
		

> And just when you thought this thread had finally died:
> 
> Is there a difference in pronounciation of quand and qu'on? If not, then how can I tell which one the speaker meant?
> 
> Alan


 
You have the same kind of difference as in "want" and won't"


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## Ahmed

Could a native please tell me if there's any _audible_ difference between "*veille*" and "*veuille*" (as in "qu'il *veuille*")?

I won't let this thread die


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## zaby

Yes there is, in veille, 'e' is pronouced like è (I didn't succeed in writing the phonetic symbol..), whereas in veuille, eu is prononced [ə]


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## tilt

Ahmed said:
			
		

> Could a native please tell me if there's any _audible_ difference between "*veille*" and "*veuille*" (as in "qu'il *veuille*")?
> 
> I won't let this thread die


Yes there is !
The same as between _nef _and _neuf_, as commented in some previous message.
Veille -> French *è* like in _steak
_Veuille -> French *e *like in _stuck
_


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## James Bates

Is the "d" in "apprend" pronounced in the following sentence? If so, is it pronounced "t"?"On apprend à lire à l'école."


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## DearPrudence

*"On apprend à lire à l'école."*
Je dirais que l'on ne prononce pas le "d" dans cette phrase.

Mais on le prononce dans :
*"Apprend-on à lire à l'école ?"*


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## JasmineIII

dans "apprend-on...", le "d" se prononce comme un "t".
non?


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## DearPrudence

Oui, tout à fait. Pardon, je n'ai pas été précise du tout


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## Fraser age 73

Hello James Bates,
In a French dictionary, such as “Le Micro-Robert,” each word is immediately followed by its phonetic transcription:
"demain" [d«mɛ̃] 
"deux mains" [dø mɛ̃]


Learning the phonetic alphabet helps in learning the different pronunciations of French words; the site below is very thorough:

http://www.languageguide.org/francais/grammar/pronunciation/

Fraser


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## tilt

DearPrudence said:


> *"On apprend à lire à l'école."*
> Je dirais que l'on ne prononce pas le "d" dans cette phrase.
> 
> Mais on le prononce dans :
> *"Apprend-on à lire à l'école ?"*


Normalement, la liaison se fait dans les deux phrases (et le "d" se prononce bien "t" ici). Mais il est vrai qu'à l'usage, peu de gens le font dans le 1er cas.

Les liaisons posent des soucis à beaucoup de gens (de plus en plus ?). Il n'y a qu'à voir le nombre de personnes qui n'ont toujours pas compris que "euro" commence par une voyelle et demande donc à être lié au nombre qui le précède...


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## Mani23

tilt said:


> Il n'y a qu'à voir le nombre de personnes qui n'ont toujours pas compris que "euro" commence par une voyelle et demande donc à être lié au nombre qui le précède...



Ca a au moins un avantage, celui de ne pas entendre "vingt z'euros" ou "cent z'euros"  ; c'est un problème d'orthographe plus que de prononciation, mais c'est vraiment horrible comme liaison


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## CARNESECCHI

Mani23 said:


> Ca a au moins un avantage, celui de ne pas entendre "vingt z'euros" ou "cent z'euros"  ; c'est un problème d'orthographe plus que de prononciation, mais c'est vraiment horrible comme liaison


Oui, ces liaisons "fort mal-t-à propos" nous font un sacré pataquès.


----------



## tilt

Mani23 said:


> Ca a au moins un avantage, celui de ne pas entendre "vingt z'euros" ou "cent z'euros"  ; c'est un problème d'orthographe plus que de prononciation, mais c'est vraiment horrible comme liaison


C'est vrai, mais _cent "heuro" _mais gène autant que _cent "zeuro"_, au final.

En passant... "euro" est censé être invariable (du fait que suivant les différents langues européennes, la marque du pluriel n'est pas toujours le "s"). Il n'y à qu'à regarder sur les pièces et billets pour s'en rendre compte !


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## zaby

tilt said:


> En passant... "euro" est censé être invariable (du fait que suivant les différents langues européennes, la marque du pluriel n'est pas toujours le "s"). Il n'y à qu'à regarder sur les pièces et billets pour s'en rendre compte !


 
Euh... non, en français euro n'est pas invariable 
Il n'y a pas de 's' sur les pièces et billets pour la raison que tu donnes mais en français on dit bien des euros et des centimes d'euro (même si c'est écrit "cent" sur les pièces).

http://www.academie-francaise.fr/langue/questions.html#euro


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## tilt

Au temps pour moi ! J'avais lu le contraire je ne sais plus où, mais ma source était visiblement mal renseignée.


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