# What do you think of Arranged marriages?



## panjabigator

Everyone has their view points on these, but I would like to hear/read some of yours!  What do you think of arranged marriages?  I'll post my opinion in a bit!


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## Ana Raquel

Hi Panjabigator,

I know about arranged marriages in West Asia, India, Pakistan and west asian communities living in the west practicing it.

I'd say they are accepted and those marriages can work similarity to love- west marriages, but I still have my personal --totally subjective preconception and I see them as selfish in comparisson to love west marriages because the parts seek wealth, studies, colours of skin, same province in some cases , same religion, same customs, especailly wealth, studies.

In short, even if I see them selfish, I think many of those marriages are succesful, taken more as a contract and waiting the love comes after the marriage and in those communities divorce is bad seen, so, many of those marriages can look succesful but when they are not. Anyway many love marriages also fail...


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## Yuribear

I have mixed feelings about it, because I know several women in India who had gone through hell because their chosen husband mistreat them and have a horrible marriage, very bad arrangements (with little possibility of getting out of it). But on the other hand, there are other marriages that are wonderful. My conclusion is that what it is *really important* in a marriage is the attitude and commitment you really have towards it. In India it is more spirtually based whereas in the west it is more based on the senses.


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## maxiogee

Marrying for "love" is a relatively new thing in the western world.
Most ancient marriages were about land-ownership, property and power.
People under both systems were liable to find themselves in dreadful states, or in unions of great happiness to both.

I see nothing intrinsically wrong with either method of forming unions.


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## Outsider

Let's not confuse marriage of convenience with arranged marriage. The problem with arranged marriages is that the interested parties (bride and groom) do not have much of a say about whom they marry.
I'm glad I was born in a time and place where we no longer have that custom.


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## maxiogee

Outsider said:
			
		

> Let's not confuse marriage of convenience with arranged marriage.



Why?



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> The problem with arranged marriages is that the interested parties (bride and groom) do not have much of a say about whom they marry.



…and in a marriage of convenience they do? 
That's news to me. The _convenience_ involved is usually that of the parents of the couple. For the couple it is a most inconvenient arrangement.


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## Gato_Gordo

I also have mixed feelings about this, for once, the idea of somebody else deciding such an important part of my life strikes me as wrong.

But at he same time, if somebody with a cool head, ample experience in coupling psicology and a big net of carefully screened options, wanted to help me to decide.... and kept my parents happy.... I might as well pay for it ( ´ー｀)―♪

So I guess the big difference is whether I have a say or not in the final decision.

Matchmakers and celestinas are a constant through human history, even today we have computerized matchmaking services (which I feel are rubbish), so I guess their's is a worthy job.

Ummm.... I think I'll find my local shadchan ( ´ー｀)―♪


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## maree

I think that if both parts really wants to it's ok. 
I have seen some documentaries about this (I think these were Indian girls), and they looked quite happy with it.

But many Norwegian girls with other backgrounds are kidnapped back to their parent's country and forced to marry some stranger because the Norwegian men aren't good enough or something.
This is cruel.


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## Outsider

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> …and in a marriage of convenience they do?
> That's news to me. The _convenience_ involved is usually that of the parents of the couple.


An ambitious young woman marries a wealthy elderly man for his money -- this is a marriage of convenience, but it's not an arranged marriage, is it?


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## maxiogee

If he knows what she's doing (and he surely does) and he gets what he wants out of the *arrangement*, then yes, 

Seriously, 
Sorry, I misunderstood you earlier.


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## Pivra

It is as bad as eloping in my opinion. I would rather marry to the one I love and she must be accepted by my parents as well.


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## tvdxer

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm against it, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in that situtation myself.


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## maxiogee

"I would rather *(A)* marry to the one I love and *(B)* she must be accepted by my parents as well."​

And if *(A)* and *(B)* don't coincide? 
What if they don't approve of the woman you love, or if you don't love the woman they approve of?


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## Pivra

maxiogee said:
			
		

> "I would rather *(A)* marry to the one I love and *(B)* she must be accepted by my parents as well."​
> And if *(A)* and *(B)* don't coincide?
> What if they don't approve of the woman you love, or if you don't love the woman they approve of?


 
  Then thats tough lol. Who is wrong? County Paris or Romeo?


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## Aldin

I'm definitely against arranged marriages.
You have to live with that person for a long period,(in case of my country divorce is too expensive),and to get married just to please your parents that's just insane.I'm living in muslim region,we never did that,as long as I know.In communism arranged marriages vanished.


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## ummja'far

There is a difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

Forced marriages are e.g. mum takes daughter back to Pakistan (stereotype I know!) and tells her to marry her nephew otherwise she will kill herself. (This was the gist of something that happened here a few years ago. The girl managed to escape, found a british embassy, and ended up with an OBE or something I believe!)

An arranged marriage is (or can be?) where parents are other relatives/acquaintances of a couple introduce them to each other, they meet a few times, and then get married. I think the term arranged marriages includes quite a large variety of things, from something like forced marriage at one extreme, to just normal western dating and then getting married but with parental consent at the other. I think a good definition is always useful in controversial topics like these.


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## djchak

ummja'far said:
			
		

> There is a difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.
> 
> Forced marriages are e.g. mum takes daughter back to Pakistan (stereotype I know!) and tells her to marry her nephew otherwise she will kill herself. (This was the gist of something that happened here a few years ago. The girl managed to escape, found a british embassy, and ended up with an OBE or something I believe!)
> 
> An arranged marriage is (or can be?) where parents are other relatives/acquaintances of a couple introduce them to each other, they meet a few times, and then get married. I think the term arranged marriages includes quite a large variety of things, from something like forced marriage at one extreme, to just normal western dating and then getting married but with parental consent at the other. I think a good definition is always useful in controversial topics like these.




I would agree with that basic definition.

In a way, arranged marrigages are basically when the parents play matchmaker/and "screen" the son/daughter out to see if they are compatible. It's assumed that AFTER they get married, that's when the love should start and grow.


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## mytwolangs

maxiogee said:
			
		

> "I would rather *(A)* marry to the one I love and *(B)* she must be accepted by my parents as well."​
> And if *(A)* and *(B)* don't coincide?
> What if they don't approve of the woman you love, or if you don't love the woman they approve of?


That happens a lot in America. Hence the in-law jokes you often hear in the USA.
Ultimately, it is up to the two people getting married. 
Having a good relationship with the inlaws helps a lot of matters, but it is not a must.


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## hedonist

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Everyone has their view points on these, but I would like to hear/read some of yours!  What do you think of arranged marriages?  I'll post my opinion in a bit!


I wouldn't stand for it.  I'd imagine it would be extremely bad for my health if I was expected/forced/told/ordered/whatever to marry a complete stranger or someone that I have no feelings for.  As an adult, a decision of that sort of magnitude is entirely up to me and nobody else.  Unless of course I sought advice and wanted some input.


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## Moogey

I totally disagree with arranged marriages. I believe that when you interact with "the one" there is a 6th sense that tells you that he/she is the one, that only is "turned on" when interacting with the individual. I don't believe it is the parent's business at all to choose who you marry and what happens in your life once you are an adult. Once you are an adult, it is the parent's privilege, not their right, to be involved in your life. I would much rather marry a girl I love to death and displease my parents for whatever reason than for my parents arrange for me to marry some sleezeball that I can't stand and make them happy.

If each person in the marriage isn't giving it his or her 100%, it's not really a marriage (or at least not a healthy one). What kind of marriage would it be if you hated the person (or didn't quite like him/her?) That's the opposite of a marriage!

-M


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## Sallyb36

They are a worse idea than not-arranged marriages.


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## badgrammar

It is very hard for someone who has grown up in the "West" to even begin to understand arranged marriages.  It is not part of our culture, which, over the past couple of centuries, has decided that love - romantic love - is the most important thing in marriage -- as an aside, I wonder if that is not why the divorce courts are so full!

Arranged marriages are not necessarily "forced" today.  It is still common practice in many countries for family and friends to try to find a suitable spouse, intoduce the couple, and see what happens.  I met a successful Indian bachelor who lives outside of Delhi.  At 34, he is still not married, but he told me with delight, he might soon be...  to an educated professional woman "found" by his parents.  They met several times and hit it off, and both wish to marry.



> If each person in the marriage isn't giving it his or her 100%, it's not really a marriage (or at least not a healthy one). What kind of marriage would it be if you hated the person (or didn't quite like him/her?) That's the opposite of a marriage!



  Unfortunately, many people who marry for love find out a few years later that not only is neither party giving 100%, but also that what they feel for their partners feels closer to hate than to love.

Arranged marriages are sometimes far happier than many of those just based on "being in love", or on being "turned on", or on some other emotion that, while strong, may not last the next 50 years.  The couple can make a rational, well-thought out choice to marry someone with whom they believe they are compatible (religiously, socially), believing their love will grow.  

Granted, there are also forced arranged marriages, and especilly young women who are married in order to get them out of the house, to collect a dowry, or for other oppressive reasons.

But we should not put "arranged marriages" in the same category.  In it's best light, it is an ancient tradition with strong roots in many cultures, and has produced many great stories of love that lasted a lifetime.  I married for love.  I'm an American, that's what we do.  In other cultures, things are done differently.  Let us not be too hasty to judge practices we perhaps do not really understand...


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## Jenniferrrr

To me, idea of arranged marriage makes more sense than marrying for love. When you are in love you cannot think clearly... it is very easy to confuse love with infatuation and desire. Too many young people get married in the midst of this cloudy "love," and soon the lust fades away and there is nothing left... and their marriage crumbles.



> But at he same time, if somebody with a cool head, ample experience in coupling psicology and a big net of carefully screened options, wanted to help me to decide.... and kept my parents happy.... I might as well pay for it


 
Maybe we would be better off if someone who knew what they were doing eliminated all the drama and emotion for us. But, on the other hand, without all the love and hate and heartbreak, maybe we would not be living life to its fullest.


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## Sallyb36

It would be ok if both parties knew each other and agreed to it, but enforced arranged marriages are very wrong in my book.


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## badgrammar

But forced marriages are another topic...  An interesting one, but a different on nonetheless...


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## Sallyb36

ok, but I always thought that arranged ones were quite often forced ones.


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## badgrammar

They may sometimes be forced, but they are also part of cultures who have simply always done things that way...  This is often the case in cultures where men and women do not mingle freely, like in the West.  I wonder though if it has gone through a decine in popularity in recent decades as those countries have become more "westernized", and has it also gone through a comeback in past years?


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## Kelly B

I'm another one with mixed feelings about it. As badgrammar pointed out, we in the West associate "arranged" with "forced." In many countries, that is indeed the case, and I think that forced marriage is terribly sad and cruel. However...





			
				moogey said:
			
		

> I would much rather marry a girl I love to death and displease my parents for whatever reason than for my parents arrange for me to marry some sleezeball that I can't stand and make them happy.


Are you certain that your parents really care so little about your feelings? That is not the case in at least some of the cultures where marriages are arranged.
Arranged marriages can work very well when the parents do care about the feelings of their children, and make a strong effort to wisely choose partners that will really be a good match.

Like Jenniferrr, I think that the divorce rate in the West is probably tied to our inflated expectations for romance and sex. An awful lot of people seem to marry for lust, more than love, and pay no attention to whether the spouse would make a good partner or a good co-parent. When the fire cools, whether because of aging bodies or crying babies or dirty socks or just getting bored, people assume they're not "in love" anymore and dump the relationship. 

Mature couples can get beyond this out of friendship and a decision to love, whether the match was arranged, or for love at first sight.


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## Jenniferrrr

Very well said, Kelly B. I am in complete agreement. 

I would like to believe that the parents DO have their children's best interests in mind. Parents are more experienced in life, more experienced in love, and more experienced in marriage. Their children may not understand them at 18 or 20 years old, but most likely their parents are right, and their kids will realize this as they mature.

I do not know first-hand any couples who have had an arranged marriage, but it would be interesting to see if this is just an ideal, or if this is how it actually turns out.


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## djchak

badgrammar said:
			
		

> It is very hard for someone who has grown up in the "West" to even begin to understand arranged marriages.  It is not part of our culture, which, over the past couple of centuries, has decided that love - romantic love - is the most important thing in marriage -- as an aside, I wonder if that is not why the divorce courts are so full!
> 
> Arranged marriages are not necessarily "forced" today.  It is still common practice in many countries for family and friends to try to find a suitable spouse, intoduce the couple, and see what happens.  I met a successful Indian bachelor who lives outside of Delhi.  At 34, he is still not married, but he told me with delight, he might soon be...  to an educated professional woman "found" by his parents.  They met several times and hit it off, and both wish to marry.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, many people who marry for love find out a few years later that not only is neither party giving 100%, but also that what they feel for their partners feels closer to hate than to love.
> 
> Arranged marriages are sometimes far happier than many of those just based on "being in love", or on being "turned on", or on some other emotion that, while strong, may not last the next 50 years.  The couple can make a rational, well-thought out choice to marry someone with whom they believe they are compatible (religiously, socially), believing their love will grow.
> 
> Granted, there are also forced arranged marriages, and especilly young women who are married in order to get them out of the house, to collect a dowry, or for other oppressive reasons.
> 
> But we should not put "arranged marriages" in the same category.  In it's best light, it is an ancient tradition with strong roots in many cultures, and has produced many great stories of love that lasted a lifetime.  I married for love.  I'm an American, that's what we do.  In other cultures, things are done differently.  Let us not be too hasty to judge practices we perhaps do not really understand...



You said it better than I could. 

Most "arranged" marriages are not "forced", in any way. It's just a different mindset in the culture. Look at the front page of this popular website:

http://www.shaadi.com/

People go there that already have expectations about marriage BEFORE they meet the person...big difference compared with the West in general.
The whole idea of getting the parents involved is so they can judge the COMPATIBILTY of the 2 people..... so, the people looking for a spouse (ideally) WANT thier family to help make the choice.

Think of it this way: would you be against marriages where the couple met becuase of a matchmaker? Well it's basically the same thing.

It's not for me, but if you discount this, you should also discount matchmakers, or dating websites in general..becuase they are basically doing the same thing...helping couples to meet.

And again, "forced" marriages are disgusting, but not the same thing as "arranged" marriages.


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## Moogey

Kelly B said:
			
		

> Are you certain that your parents really care so little about your feelings?


No, I think they'd probably choose someone I can get along with and like, but I just used this as an example, if that were the case.

I just want to marry only who I want to marry. Thankfully this isn't a problem here.

-M


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## Everness

All marriages are arranged, at least unconsciously. We marry someone who is like our dad or mom or completely different than him or her. I liked the title of the following article: *Children who marry their parents*

http://watkins.gospelcom.net/marriage.htm


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## unefemme1

Since I'm only 17, nowhere near needing to decide whether to marry or not, I still think arranged marriages are horrible, and I don't think I could ever stay living if i was forced to marry some weird sleezbag. Really, just the thought of it makes me shudder. 

I don't know about other countries where arranged marriages are considered normal due to their religion or just family values, but certainly where I am, its not exactly a common sight. Unless abuse is involved of course. But that's another story altogether. 

Marrying someone whom you only knew for 10 brief minutes before you're whisked away with him sounds very scary. We are talking of marriage after all, and a marriage is nothing like dating, where you can break up in less than a day later...
How do other people feel? Are there people here who are in arranged marriages and whose relationships are still thriving? I'd like to find out, it would be really interesting to know from another's point of view.


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## nanel

I don't like the idea at all. I know that my parents would want what's best for me, but, am I going to let them decide all my life? If they're going to choose my husband, why not my profession? How many kids I'm going to have, where I should live, what I watch on TV.... everything!

In my humble opinion, if you're an adult, you should take your own decisions, your parents decide for you when you're a kid, but when you grow up... it's your life, it's your decision to make.

I undertand that this couples can choose, but how can you make a good choice if you've only met him/her some days before having to decide? Does a similar cultural level, believes and all that mean that you're going to get along well? Not necessarily. And yeah, we, those who decide for ourselves, make mistakes, but our mistakes, not someone elses.

I'm aware that I think this way because of my education and my culture, don't get me wrong, I respect everyone's opinion and believes, but since the purpose of this thread is sharing opinions, there goes mine.


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## cherine

It's seems that the confusion between arranged and forced marriages persist.
Forced marriage is a very low thing, brutal and stupid.
But arranged marriage, is somehow like blind dating in the modern Western countries : A guy looking for a wife, his family or friend suggest Miss X, he meets her, talks to her, they think/feel they can be happy together, and they get married. It's also very probable -and happens so often- that one or both doesn't feel like marriying, so they simply don't. 

I would like to remind of badgrammar's great post, which explains it very well.


			
				badgrammar said:
			
		

> Arranged marriages are not necessarily "forced" today. It is still common practice in many countries for family and friends to try to find a suitable spouse, intoduce the couple, and see what happens. I met a successful Indian bachelor who lives outside of Delhi. At 34, he is still not married, but he told me with delight, he might soon be... to an educated professional woman "found" by his parents. They met several times and hit it off, and both wish to marry.
> [...]
> Granted, there are also forced arranged marriages, and especilly young women who are married in order to get them out of the house, to collect a dowry, or for other oppressive reasons.
> But we should not put "arranged marriages" in the same category.[...]


Most of our parents -in the East I mean- were married this way (arranged, not forced). And untill now, many young couples get married this way, specially those who don't get the chance to meet people from the other sex : guys who work in the army or in the oil fields, young women who don't go out for work and don't have large families (i.e. no male acquaintance)....
And I agree with badgrammar in what he said about those marriages being successful. When people built their family on more rational reasons -with some feelings too, of course but not necessarily romance- they grow to love each other. But it's very often that those who marry for romance (or lust like someone said) loose some of the "brightness" of their love when they meet the cold realities of life.

I don't know which of those two kinds of marriages I'd chose for myself (arranges or romance), but I hope for myself to be able to choose the right guy in either ways


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## djchak

unefemme1 said:
			
		

> Since I'm only 17, nowhere near needing to decide whether to marry or not, I still think arranged marriages are horrible, and I don't think I could ever stay living if i was forced to marry some weird sleezbag. Really, just the thought of it makes me shudder.
> 
> I don't know about other countries where arranged marriages are considered normal due to their religion or just family values, but certainly where I am, its not exactly a common sight. Unless abuse is involved of course. But that's another story altogether.
> 
> Marrying someone whom you only knew for 10 brief minutes before you're whisked away with him sounds very scary. We are talking of marriage after all, and a marriage is nothing like dating, where you can break up in less than a day later...
> How do other people feel? Are there people here who are in arranged marriages and whose relationships are still thriving? I'd like to find out, it would be really interesting to know from another's point of view.



In the scenario you are describing, that sounds like forced marriage..... 10 minutes is a little short. From what I know people put a lot of effort into these things, matrimonial web sites and all. 

Personally, unless it was more of a subtle matchmaker situation (which it often is), I couldn't do it. My stubborn pride says I must find a woman all by myself, with no help from friends or family.


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## Maria Maya

I won't talk about forced marriages, to me they seem like crime, and should be punished. 

We are stupid and short sighted creatures, and even though God gave us free will, why should we rely our life on the decisions of other short sighted creatures who happen to have a few more years than we ? I don't buy experience as a strong reason to arranged marriages. I am not against arranged marriages, as long as bride and groom agree, people can be happy in many different contexts. But i think that social traditions tend to became suffocating, because some people who don't fit in the model will probably have trouble when they do not follow them. So, i would prefer a place where arranged marriages are not a tradition. But i would like to repeat that I think that it can work, and if both parts agree, ok.

I don't think either that just because some marriages fail (or even many of them), marriages for love are bad. I am happy that divorce exists and people who are unhappy need not to be tied to a person they do not take anymore. My mother have a "sucessful" marriage of more than 40 years because she thinks a woman belongs at the side of the husband. She is not from the east, just a tradicional type. Very unhappy one. 

Of course some arranged marries will succeed, some marriages for love will fail and vice versa. In life we learn from mistake, too bad, but true. Fathers and mothers teach everything they can to their children, and them they must set them free to make their own mistakes. That's what I think.


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## Everness

Maria Maya said:
			
		

> I won't talk about forced marriages, to me they seem like crime, and should be punished.
> 
> We are stupid and short sighted creatures, and even though *God gave us free will*, why should we rely our life on the decisions of other short sighted creatures who happen to have a few more years than we ? I don't buy experience as a strong reason to arranged marriages. I am not against arranged marriages, as long as bride and groom agree, people can be happy in many different contexts. But i think that social traditions tend to became suffocating, because some people who don't fit in the model will probably have trouble when they do not follow them. So, i would prefer a place where arranged marriages are not a tradition. But i would like to repeat that I think that it can work, and if both parts agree, ok.



Maria Maya, free will is a myth. The same God that gave us free will gave us an unconscious and a society. Our behaviors are ultimately informed by unconscious forces and by the process of acculturation. Trying to define our level of freedom as individuals taking into account this constraining reality is all but impossible. We think and wish we are making conscious and personal decisions when we marry but it's simply that: wishful thinking. 

Actually you don't need to live in a country where arranged marriages are the norm to understand that the process of picking a partner is extremely conditioned by irrational forces from within and cultural norms from without that eventually are internalized. Ah, don't forget to throw into the mix your own personal and unique life experiences. 

Bottom line: only Gods are able to exercise complete and unrestrained free will. We, human beings, must understand that we are like small sailing boats thrown by the Gods into an immense ocean with strong undercurrents and winds. Our goal is to live as responsibly as possibly in this type of conditions. God is in control and we are in charge. He/she knows it. That makes life and decisions much easier.


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## Yeu

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Arranged marriages are not necessarily "forced" today. It is still common practice in many countries for family and friends to try to find a suitable spouse, intoduce the couple, and see what happens. I met a successful Indian bachelor who lives outside of Delhi. At 34, he is still not married, but he told me with delight, he might soon be... to an educated professional woman "found" by his parents. They met several times and hit it off, and both wish to marry.


 
If nowadays that's the way "arranged marriages" are, I'm agree with that, because both wish to marry. 
Love is build day by day, and is more easy with a person with the same religion (if the religion is very important for you), similar background, same goals, you won't be identical for sure, but similar at least in the importat things for both.
My cousin introduced my husband to me, because she think we were very similar and looking the same, she gave me his e-mail, and the time did the rest  even against the distance (Chile-Mexico).

We are conscious we won't know everything about the other, and that we need to be patience and have the adaptation capacity. Maybe for that many arranged marriages are successful, they kept that in mind. In the other hand many "love marriages" think they know each other, and have a high expectation of the other, to find at the end, that she or he was a dream made in their mind, and is a real human.


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## justjukka

I've read that in cases of arranged marriages (not to say all or most) there is a matchmaker who knows both sides of the family very well.  The man and woman are given the chance to get to know each other before marriage, so they have the option of declining the match.  So, it isn't all bad.


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## Maria Maya

Very well, everness, i couldn't agree more. I like to use the figure of God and "free will" because it generally speaks to many hearts. Who could doubt we live under many constraints ? And sometimes we provide the strongest ones... Even so, who wouldn't like to be allowed to take his own decisions, yet they are not completely free ? I think that in all societies people can find ways to feel "happy" or "satisfied", mainly if you are raisen (is that correct ?) among that beliefs. But i think that sometimes the general rules cause great dissatisfaction for some individuals, or even groups, and because of this, I think that in some cultures it is easier to be "happy" or "satisfied", at least for some groups inside the society. And I dare saying that arranged marriages, AS A RULE, would cause more constraints to some individuals or groups (in this case, most likely to women, but also to men, why not ?), and so, would bring difficulty to some people to feel "happy". That what i think.


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## cherine

Rozax said:
			
		

> I've read that in cases of arranged marriages (not to say all or most) there is a matchmaker who knows both sides of the family very well. The man and woman are given the chance to get to know each other before marriage, so they have the option of declining the match. So, it isn't all bad.


Matchmaker used to be a "job" until almost 10 or 20 years ago in Egypt. A Woman's job, because it was usually done by a woman who has relations with many families, and hence was able to know who has a boy/girl for marriage, and which family is "stuitable"  for which....

The man's family would ask her to find a girl for their kid, she would suggest possible matches, the guy meet them, whenever/wherever the two parties agree on each other, the marriage take place, after a period of "finaçailles" of course.

The modern Webdating, is considered as the e-matchmaker  but it's not as trustworthy or respected as the traditional one.


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## GenJen54

I thought that many matchmakers, particulalry in India, relied on astrological charts not only to facilitate the "matches," but to also determine the date of weddings.

Is this still practiced, even with arranged marriages?


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## Everness

I think that arranged marriages are a better idea than the system we currently have in the West based on romanticism and pseudo-free will. Don't forget the following principle: Mothers know best and fathers (usually) don't care. Some people simply react against their parents' suggestions, recommendations, and objections (these always abound). Actually some people use marriage as a way of leaving home. And what could be better than marrying the b*tch your mother hates, right? Bottom line: listen to what mom says; after all, she gave birth to you and raised you (yes, I know, that's something she'll make sure you remember.) I love you mom!


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## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> I think that arranged marriages are a better idea than the system we currently have in the West based on romanticism and pseudo-free will. Don't forget the following principle: Mothers know best and fathers (usually) don't care. Some people simply react against their parents' suggestions, recommendations, and objections (these always abound). Actually some people use marriage as a way of leaving home. And what could be better than marrying the b*tch your mother hates, right? Bottom line: listen to what mom says; after all, she gave birth to you and raised you (yes, I know, that's something she'll make sure you remember.) I love you mom!



I actually believe that you believe that.  
You must have a rather unusual relationship to your parents, and an equally unusual understanding of the roles of parent and child.

I take it that you have personal, or strong anecdotal, evidence of people reacting against (what an uncommon, and negative, word to use with 'react'! Most people say "react to".) their parents' suggestions, recommendations and objections (and how you know "these always abound" boggles my mind).


----------



## ireney

Everness said:
			
		

> I think that arranged marriages are a better idea than the system we currently have in the West based on romanticism and pseudo-free will. Don't forget the following principle: Mothers know best and fathers (usually) don't care. Some people simply react against their parents' suggestions, recommendations, and objections (these always abound). Actually some people use marriage as a way of leaving home. And what could be better than marrying the b*tch your mother hates, right? Bottom line: listen to what mom says; after all, she gave birth to you and raised you (yes, I know, that's something she'll make sure you remember.) I love you mom!




Not my mom! Anyway, she tends to go by what I want so, in some sense, she does know best  .

Anyway, has any of you arranged for two of his friends to meet frequently just so they may hook up? That's a modern-day version of match-making.


----------



## Everness

ireney said:
			
		

> Not my mom! Anyway, she tends to go by what I want so, in some sense, she does know best  .



I'm sorry I'm the one who has to break the bad news. This is exactly what your mom wants you to believe to keep you happy and thinking she's not intruding or controlling your life and decisions. It's part of the plan. Sorry again...


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I actually believe that you believe that.
> You must have a rather unusual relationship to your parents, and an equally unusual understanding of the roles of parent and child.
> 
> I take it that you have personal, or strong anecdotal, evidence of people reacting against (what an uncommon, and negative, word to use with 'react'! Most people say "react to".) their parents' suggestions, recommendations and objections (and how you know "these always abound" boggles my mind).



Ay, ay, ay Tony! Always psychoanalyzing people! It's clear that you're a knowledgeable person when it comes to psychology. Have you ever heard the word "projection?" 

My point is that in the West romantic love is the main criterion to get married, stay married, or get a divorce. Visualize love as a pizza you cut in 3 slices. One slice represents cognition, the other one feelings and the third one actions. In the West, pizzas representing love have no slices. The whole pizza represents feelings. 

You marry someone because you fell in love with him/her. When romantic love naturally fades, people make one of two decisions. 1) They remain in highly unsatisfying relationships until they die. 2) They separate, get a divorce and move onto the next relationship until romantic love fades again and this goes on and on. *The West, with its hyperindividualism and excessivr emphasis on romantic love, has destroyed marriage as a valuable social institution.* 

Romantic love (including sex) is the icing of the cake but not the whole cake. However, true long-term loving relationships are not just based on feelings but on beliefs and actions. (Tony, I think I'm going to start charging you for the advice. Next time have your credit card ready, ok?)


----------



## Confused Linguist

Everness said:
			
		

> I think that arranged marriages are a better idea than the system we currently have in the West based on romanticism and pseudo-free will. Don't forget the following principle: Mothers know best and fathers (usually) don't care. Some people simply react against their parents' suggestions, recommendations, and objections (these always abound). Actually some people use marriage as a way of leaving home. And what could be better than marrying the b*tch your mother hates, right? Bottom line: listen to what mom says; after all, she gave birth to you and raised you (yes, I know, that's something she'll make sure you remember.) I love you mom!


 
Arranged marriages don't always work out. My parents have been married 34 years and I feel sorry for both of them.


----------



## Everness

Confused Linguist said:
			
		

> Arranged marriages don't always work out. My parents have been married 34 years and I feel sorry for both of them.



Well, there are always exceptions to the rule. My point is that people need to understand that marriage isn't a decision that 2 individuals make. There are unconscious forces and cultural and social forces at work. Even families of origin play a significant role that could determine the fate of the marriage. Let's not forget that when two individuals marry, two complex family systems marry too. 

My theory is that all marriages are arranged even in our post-modern and progressive West. The fact that both you and your fiancee escape to Vegas and get married without telling your folks isn't an act of individual freedom. It's exactly the opposite. You do it because you know that you are part of a social and family net that you find kind of restrictive. You don't know how to negotiate with those internal and external forces in order to reach a more or less rational decision.   

Bottom line: if you are planning to get married, really listen to what your parents have to say, especially your mom and then, and only then make a decision. Otherwise you'll repeat the experience of someone reading these lines. Yes, I'm talking to you! Didn't your mother tell you not to marry that scumbag? And what did you do? You disregarded her advice and moved ahead with your plans. And what happened? Ah!!! I told you, moms know best!


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> (Tony, I think I'm going to start charging you for the advice. Next time have your credit card ready, ok?)



Typical of many 'experts' who charge for their advice you fail to address any of the points I put to you, and you make points unrelated to the subject.


----------



## ireney

Everness said:
			
		

> I'm sorry I'm the one who has to break the bad news. This is exactly what your mom wants you to believe to keep you happy and thinking she's not intruding or controlling your life and decisions. It's part of the plan. Sorry again...




I am glad to see that you don't generalise and that you don't believe that all mothers behave in exactly the same way.




> My point is that in the West romantic love is the main criterion to get married, stay married, or get a divorce. Visualize love as a pizza you cut in 3 slices. One slice represents cognition, the other one feelings and the third one actions. In the West, pizzas representing love have no slices. The whole pizza represents feelings.




(I realise that the above quote is actually in answer to a different person but I couldn't resist)
Says who? Are we talking about loving someone or being in love? English doesn't help a lot in the distinction I am trying to make but there is a huge difference between the heady feeeling and the devil-may-care attitude of "in love" and the passionate yet 'rational' feeling of "love".


----------



## Confused Linguist

Everness said:
			
		

> My point is that in the West romantic love is the main criterion to get married, stay married, or get a divorce. Visualize love as a pizza you cut in 3 slices. One slice represents cognition, the other one feelings and the third one actions. In the West, pizzas representing love have no slices. The whole pizza represents feelings.


 
In the East, you will find pizzas that represent selfish expectations. The whole pizza represents the desire to live up to social expectations.



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> My theory is that all marriages are arranged even in our post-modern and progressive West.


 
This makes a lot of sense to me. 

I get the impression that you are biased towards arranged marriages. I'm not in favour of either kind of marriage, but I have no reason to think that young people always choose their marriage partners as an act of defiance against their parents.


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> Ay, ay, ay Tony! Always psychoanalyzing people! It's clear that you're a knowledgeable person when it comes to psychology. Have you ever heard the word "projection?"



No, but now that I've looked into it it does seem to describe what you are doing when you say things like:-



> Mothers know best and fathers (usually) don't care.





> And what could be better than marrying the b*tch your mother hates, right?





> I love you mom!


And then there is this jewel of a mother's heart-torn plaint…


> Bottom line: if you are planning to get married, really listen to what your parents have to say, especially your mom





> Otherwise you'll repeat the experience of someone reading these lines. Yes, I'm talking to you!


Who are you talking to here —> yourself? Or one of your own children?


> Didn't your mother tell you not to marry that scumbag?





> Ah!!! I told you, moms know best!


My goodness you sound really bitter, spiteful and vengeful!
What's behind all that little lot?
Whose father didn't care enough to back mother's attempted control of her dolly daughter?


----------



## panjabigator

Arrange marriages, in my family, have NOT been successful.  My parents should have divorced ages ago, but due to cultural reasons have chosen a life miserable together.  This entire experience has really turned me off from marriage...I don’t think I ever want to get married...but that is a side note!

Arranged marriages _can_ work out, but many times the mind set going into one of these is so *backwards!*  I know people who want their American son to marry an Indian girl because she is traditional and more than anything, subservient! They are purposely looking either a dumb bride or one who knows when to stay quiet.  But now a days, arranged marriages can be synonymous with arranged dating…only more serious!


----------



## groggy

But I think this can happen in Western marriages too (or at least it used to) because my parents are exactly the same as yours, i.e. due to cultural reasons they _chose_ to live a miserable life together, until death do them part.


----------



## Everness

ireney said:
			
		

> I am glad to see that you don't generalise and that you don't believe that all mothers behave in exactly the same way.
> 
> *Nothing is more than 80% true. Not all mothers know best but most of the time they know more than you and your dad. But let me clarify something. I'm talking about "mother" as an archetype. Actually men  can mother and women can father. Both men and women have a vulnerable, nurturing, feeling side and a rational, assertive, analytical side. I subscribe to a androgynous understanding of human beings. I know a gay man in his sixties who came out in his forties who is great mothering his 2 daughters. By the way, his ex is still alive and also has a great relationship with their kids. Gender is a social construction. Let's nurture and integrate both sides (the mothering and fathering), recognizing that they are complementary, equally valuable aspects of our full humanity as women or men. *
> 
> 
> (I realise that the above quote is actually in answer to a different person but I couldn't resist)
> 
> *This is an open conversation and we should all feel free to contribute.*
> 
> Says who? Are we talking about loving someone or being in love? English doesn't help a lot in the distinction I am trying to make but there is a huge difference between the heady feeeling and the devil-may-care attitude of "in love" and the passionate yet 'rational' feeling of "love".
> 
> *What is love? In another thread someone quoted I Corinthians 13.3-7 to define love. Disclaimer: If you are a co-dependent, stop here and read no further. There should be a law banning co-dependents from reading this chapter. If you're not, I think Paul gave us the litmus test for real love.
> 
> Love never gives up.
> Love cares more for others than for self.
> Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
> Love doesn't strut,
> Doesn't have a swelled head,
> Doesn't force itself on others,
> Isn't always "me first,"
> Doesn't fly off the handle,
> Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
> Doesn't revel when others grovel,
> Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
> Puts up with anything,
> Trusts God always,
> Always looks for the best,
> Never looks back,
> But keeps going to the end.
> *


----------



## Confused Linguist

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Arrange marriages, in my family, have NOT been successful. My parents should have divorced ages ago, but due to cultural reasons have chosen a life miserable together. This entire experience has really turned me off from marriage...*I don’t think I ever want to get married*...but that is a side note!


 
I hope you will someday find a woman who will love you and make you happy. I know this is possible because I have found my soulmate. He is absolutely wonderful.


----------



## Everness

Confused Linguist said:
			
		

> In the East, you will find pizzas that represent selfish expectations. The whole pizza represents the desire to live up to social expectations.



Good point! That's why when it comes to culture, I'm a relativist. In the West we focus on the individual at the expense of the group and in the East people tend to focus on the group at the expense of the individual. The key is to negotiate with your particular cultural reality and be as savvy as possible when it comes to finding the love of your life. However, it will be impossible to keep everyone happy. But that's ok.


----------



## vince

Everness said:
			
		

> *Nothing is more than 80% true. Not all mothers know best but most of the time they know more than you and your dad. But let me clarify something. I'm talking about "mother" as an archetype. Actually men can mother and women can father. Both men and women have a vulnerable, nurturing, feeling side and a rational, assertive, analytical side. I subscribe to a androgynous understanding of human beings. I know a gay man in his sixties who came out in his forties who is great mothering his 2 daughters. By the way, his ex is still alive and also has a great relationship with their kids. Gender is a social construction. Let's nurture and integrate both sides (the mothering and fathering), recognizing that they are complementary, equally valuable aspects of our full humanity as women or men. *


*

*You should have said that earlier then. Because without mentioning that you are referring to archetypes, most people are getting the impression that you are saying the male, by God's design flaw, just doesn't care about their kids.

IMO, using the terms you defined above, most parents are a mixture of the "maternal" and "paternal" archetypes. No female parent is entirely maternal, and no male parent is entirely paternal. But I disagree with you in that I believe maternal archetype also has flaws - the kid is taught to love and care and be emotional but they will grow up sheltered and with little practical skills and no backbone. And as you said, with only a paternal parent, one has no emotional support and grows up cold and aggressive.
 
Many dads are way better caring parents than their moms, I can speak from experience.


----------



## Everness

vince said:
			
		

> You should have said that earlier then. Because without mentioning that you are referring to archetypes, most people are getting the impression that you are saying the male, by God's design flaw, just doesn't care about their kids.



Moms and dads care but they care differently. Although I subscribe to an androgynous understanding of human beings, mothers and fathers should keep their own identity and social roles because this follows a biological design that we shouldn't be messing with. Biology rules! A mother isn't a father and vice versa. Otherwise, God would haven't created males and females. The problem is that we have assigned fixed intellectual, emotional and relational roles to men and women especially when it comes to parenting. Hopefully, one day we'll be able to create a more integrated way of parenting where moms and dads can draw upon their "feminine and masculine sides" (Jung). We won't hear more expressions like "Wait until your father comes back" or "I had a distant or absent father" or "My mom drives me crazy."


----------



## vince

Everness said:
			
		

> Moms and dads care but they care differently. Although I subscribe to an androgynous understanding of human beings, mothers and fathers should keep their own identity and social roles because this follows a biological design that we shouldn't be messing with. Biology rules! A mother isn't a father and vice versa. Otherwise, God would haven't created males and females. The problem is that we have assigned fixed intellectual, emotional and relational roles to men and women especially when it comes to parenting. Hopefully, one day we'll be able to create a more integrated way of parenting where moms and dads can draw upon their "feminine and masculine sides" (Jung). We won't hear more expressions like "Wait until your father comes back" or "I had a distant or absent father" or "My mom drives me crazy."



I'm sorry, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself

you believe in androgynous understanding of human beings
but yet social roles are biological design?

And God created men and women different, to be father and mother, but not both? But yet you say you are only referring to archetypes?

I am confused.


----------



## ireney

Everness, just so I understand:



> Love never gives up.
> Love cares more for others than for self.
> Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
> Love doesn't strut,
> Doesn't have a swelled head,
> Doesn't force itself on others,
> Isn't always "me first,"
> Doesn't fly off the handle,
> Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
> Doesn't revel when others grovel,
> Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
> Puts up with anything,
> Trusts God always,
> Always looks for the best,
> Never looks back,
> But keeps going to the end.



You think feeling so and marrying because you feel such a sentiment is wrong?

If not then I am confused.

Since I am a little slow at times could you do me an immense favour?
Re-state what you believe in in reference to all the now open issues?
e.g. I gather that you say we shouldn't marry out of love but follow the advice of our parents which in most situations means our mother because fathers usually don't care?

Although my mother (and father) doesn't fall into the archetype which you have in mind (I would appreciate an explanation of what that is too if you don't mind) I should follow her advice?

Why is it that my mother knows best?

Although fathers do have a 'female' side which would make them care more, should they decide to listen to it they shouldn't for that way they would not follow their social roles etc?

These questions are sort of guidelines on what I would like you to clarify by the way


----------



## panjabigator

Im sorry, I really do not want to sound like a horrible person, but can we exclude God from this topic?  I am a religious person, but many people on this forum do not share the same beliefs as you, and that already becomes a contradiction.

And in regards to parents, could it be that different regions of the world have different parental roles?  The 'female side' in the US may be different than the 'female side' in Zaire/Congo or whatever the current name is!!

Saludos


----------



## Everness

vince said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself
> 
> you believe in androgynous understanding of human beings
> but yet social roles are biological design?
> 
> And God created men and women different, to be father and mother, but not both? But yet you say you are only referring to archetypes?
> 
> I am confused.



I don't see any contradiction. Biology sets the foundation for human behavior. Evolution is a smart process: two different genders (I'm not talking about sexual orientation) have been created and continue to exist until today. So far mother nature isn't giving us any indication that she is changing her mind on this respect. So when I talk about the androgynous understanding of human beings, I'm mainly referring to intellectual, emotional and relational traits, not to physical characteristics. 

The fact that men and women are revisiting some rigid roles is great news but there are certain roles that aren't interchangeable. For instance, it’s women and not men who carry babies in their wombs for 9 months and it’s women and not men who breastfeed the babies for many more months. These two years of physical bonding create a special relationship between moms and their babies that is carried into other developmental stages. For instance, I once conducted an experiment. It wasn't very scientific but very telling. I asked men and women this same question. "If you had to choose with whom to stay: your husband/wife or your children, whom would you pick? Women answered immediately, almost automatically: "My children." Most men answered: "What do you mean?" 

Dads can be motherly but mothers bring something to the table of parenting that men can't due to a different biological design and function.


----------



## panjabigator

Everness, I don't think think that your findings are correct for 100% of people...I'm am pretty sure that my parents would in a heart beat choose my sister and myself before each other, ie no hesitation.  I'd venture to say that most arranged marriage couples would do the same...many do grow to love each other, but it may not be the same passionate love of the movies.


----------



## vince

Everness said:
			
		

> For instance, I once conducted an experiment. It wasn't very scientific but very telling. I asked men and women this same question. "If you had to choose with whom to stay: your husband/wife or your children, whom would you pick? Women answered immediately, almost automatically: "My children." Most men answered: "What do you mean?"


Umm these are emotional and relational traits.

The differences I acknowledge are physical traits. I don't believe that men are incapable of feeling certain emotions because they (by some design) don't have a special bond with children. I think a lot of problems have to do with fathers not being granted any significant parental leave after birth, and societal pressures to be the man of the house, gotta rake in the dough while the woman is the only one doing the hands-on parenting.


----------



## maxiogee

Everness,
Do you feel up to answering my questions yet?


----------



## Yuribear

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I thought that many matchmakers, particulalry in India, relied on astrological charts not only to facilitate the "matches," but to also determine the date of weddings.
> 
> Is this still practiced, even with arranged marriages?



Hi GenJen,

I found in India that *Hindus* who do matchmaking do rely on astrological charts. They also determine the date of the "engagement" (which is quite an occassion) and that of the wedding. However, I found that friends who belong to other religions in India, such as Christians, Parsis and Musslims do not have astrological charts drafted. Being the Christians the ones who have less arranged marriages. 

Another interesting thing I noticed was that depending on their "economic status" people will or will not have arranged marriages. Very rich people in India are more westernized. Most of them have studied abroad and travel quite often. Many even live part time in India and part time somwhere else. They do not tend to have arranged marriages, regardless of their religion.


----------



## Everness

ireney said:
			
		

> You think feeling so and marrying because you feel such a sentiment is wrong? If not then I am confused.
> 
> *Let's go back to the pizza image. Love is like a 3-slice pizza: cognition (values), feelings, and actions. Do the following exercise. Go over the list of true traits of love according to Paul in I Corinthians 13 and list each of them in 3 columns: cognition, feelings, and actions. How many traits ended up on the feelings column? I'm not against loving feelings or sexual feelings. As I stated above, they constitute the icing of the cake but by no means they constitute the cake itself. In life in general and when it comes to choosing a partner, it's good to listen not only to your heart but also to engage your neocortex. Unchecked feelings make a very unreliable compass. Ah, and don't forget to check with mom! *
> 
> 
> Since I am a little slow at times could you do me an immense favour?
> Re-state what you believe in in reference to all the now open issues?
> e.g. I gather that you say we shouldn't marry out of love but follow the advice of our parents which in most situations means our mother because fathers usually don't care?
> 
> *As I stated above, fathers care but differently. As I shared with Vince, I strongly believe that psychological, relational and social functioning is colored and informed by biology. For instance, women's limbic system is different and larger than men's. Studies tell us, for instance, that because of the difference in the limbic system, women tend to verbalize, while men are more prone to act. Design informs psychological and social functions. But the following information is more related to our topic.
> 
> An evolutionary look at the role of moms:
> 
> "The limbic brain also produces emotions. Emotions facilitate relationships. Mammals, unlike reptiles, care for their young. Mammals evolved brains hardwired for mother-child and other relationships."
> 
> "Females are more selective than males. Females do most of the work of producing and raising children. In contrast, fathering a child is less work, so males aren't so choosy."
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Relationships/The_Evolution_of_the_Human_Brain
> 
> An evolutionary look at the role of dads:
> 
> "Most mammal fathers have little or no involvement with their offspring. Male gorillas kill infants fathered by other males. Male chimpanzees help all the youngsters in their group, but they don't know who fathered each child."
> 
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Relationships/The_Evolution_of_the_Human_Brain
> 
> Then it adds,
> 
> "Human evolution may have begun when fathers helped raise their children, giving their children a survival advantage. Among hunter-gatherers today, children without fathers are more than twice as likely to die during childhood."
> 
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Relationships/The_Evolution_of_the_Human_Brain
> 
> Bottom line: fathers have evolved. Moms have an advantage over dads because their brains were hardwired for mother-child relationships first. Dads are still catching up.
> 
> That's possibly why we hear the expression deadbeat dads more than deadbeat moms. Now there are websites that expose deadbeat parents. That means that women might be catching up or rewiring their brain!  I'm glad that there are some changes in this front. However, I don't think that mother nature is planning to fuse both genders into one in the near future.
> *
> Although my mother (and father) doesn't fall into the archetype which you have in mind (I would appreciate an explanation of what that is too if you don't mind) I should follow her advice?
> 
> *An archetype is a model of a person, personality or behavior. As stated above mothers' brains were hardwired for mother-child relationships first. Mothers have been extremely efficient in making sure that their offsprings survive and thrive in life. Listen to this:
> 
> "Females choose males with features that make the males less able to survive. E.g., a peacock's bright colors make him visible to predators, and his huge tail slows his escapes. His beautiful tail communicates to peahens that he's an especially fit individual, i.e., he's so fast that he can escape predators despite his heavy tail. Sexual selection is, in general, the opposite of natural selection."
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Relationships/The_Evolution_of_the_Human_Brain
> *
> Why is it that my mother knows best?
> 
> *Because she is biologically built to make sure that you survive and thrive. *
> 
> Although fathers do have a 'female' side which would make them care more, should they decide to listen to it they shouldn't for that way they would not follow their social roles etc?
> 
> *I don't understand your question. However, I should restate that from an evolutionary perspective, dad's brains are still in the process of rewiring for father-child relationships. Maybe culture is having an impact on nature. Who knows? In other words, they are becoming more reliable but if I were you, I would go with mom's advice!  *
> 
> These questions are sort of guidelines on what I would like you to clarify by the way


----------



## panjabigator

> Originally Posted by *GenJen54*
> _I thought that many matchmakers, particulalry in India, relied on astrological charts not only to facilitate the "matches," but to also determine the date of weddings.
> 
> Is this still practiced, even with arranged marriages?_



Yes!  People will match their "numbers" through an astrologer and hope that they are a match!


----------



## Maria Maya

I think in the beggining of this topic the one who proposed the question was talking about an specific social practice, bounded in place and perhaps time. I think Everness, brilliantly, is changing subject (sorry, i do think so, i don't know where all this conversation about mons and dads and limbic brain is going), in the end i am full of doubts: when we are talking about arranged marriages, we are talking about India and where else ? Definitly we are not talking about all weddings, or the north-american use of introducing people (are we ?). I know too little about the subject, what i had in mind when i read the question was what I saw in some movies, like "Monsoon Wedding" ("Um casamento à indiana" in portuguese), and the echoes of news about girls who have been kidnaped and forced to marry (as i told before, i am not considering this as "arranged"). I have already presented my opinion, i recognise it is based on little knowledge, so i would like to hear more about the social practice that was meant in the begining.


----------



## ceci '79

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Everness, I don't think think that your findings are correct for 100% of people...I'm am pretty sure that my parents would in a heart beat choose my sister and myself before each other, ie no hesitation. I'd venture to say that most arranged marriage couples would do the same...many do grow to love each other, but it may not be the same passionate love of the movies.


 
In my opinion, _not_ expecting marriage to have the same passionate love of the movies is actually a very healthy attitude.


----------



## Everness

My point is that marriages in collectivistic non-Western countries are perhaps a better idea than non-arranged marriages in our individualistic Western countries. Why? It puts marriage in a larger social context, that is, the extended families, a natural locus. 

Some of us are measuring success of arranged marriages based on happiness of one or both spouses. Well, I don't see too many happy couples in the States either. Some stats: One-fifth of first marriages end within 5 years and one-third end with 10 years. 43 percent of first marriages end in separation or divorce within 15 years. 

Maybe HBO's "Big Love" has the solution to our marital problems.


----------



## panjabigator

Perhaps then there is no problem with arranged marriages....instead maybe it's marriage in general that is flawed


----------



## Maria Maya

theoretically there are advantages of putting marriage in a larger context, of extendend families, but as we were talking about real cultures, centered in the figure of man, or father, ("patriarcais", i don't know how to say it in english), then i fear the situation of women in the "arrangement" is weaker, submissive, maybe the ones who know the practice from nearer can correct me. 

Also i think marriage in the west is going through changes to a lesser rigid institution, with more complex families, and divorce is a part of it, marriages do not have to last "til death do us part", and it is not necessarily bad. I consider divorce an achievement, although it is certainly a painful process. Life hurts.


----------



## capsi

Different cultures do have different view points on the subject of marriage.In india the concept of marriage is not only between a guy and girl but between both the families. I think there is no herm in arranged marriages as long as its not a forceful one. In india where arrange marriages are common ,with time few changes have happend,like in older days parents used to deside the whole thing ,there was no say from the boy or the girl. Now both families meet, boy and the girl meet, they go out for some days ,to know each other then the desicion of marriage is taken after talking to both the boy and girl. To some culture it may seem odd and to others its normal. Now in india both arranged and love marriage (term in india for non-arranged marriage) happens,and as long as both the person lives happpily loving each other,the form of marriage does not matter to anyone.

to everness

In last 10-15yrs in india the number of divorce has increased many many times. We used to have joint families all brothers living with parents in a same house as a big happy family.Arrange marriages are basically to find someone who have the mentality to live with all family members, thats way parents used to go for that.Now people have become more self centered, no time for others not even for parents.Old age homes are big business in india now,because either the wife doesn't want the parents of his hubby or the guy doesnot care for his parents at all.


----------



## Everness

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Im sorry, I really do not want to sound like a horrible person, but can we exclude God from this topic?  I am a religious person, but many people on this forum do not share the same beliefs as you, and that already becomes a contradiction.
> 
> How would you feel if someone asks you to exclude your *ideology *from this or any other topic? Some people use ideologies to make sense of the world and other people resort to theology. These are two valuable and legitimate worldview categories. And most importantly, they can talk to one another. However, it seems that all ideologies are acceptable when it comes to debates but that all theologies are unacceptable and should be left out of any constructive dialogue or debate. That's not only contradictory but discriminatory. *Ideologies are secular theologies in disguise *
> 
> And in regards to parents, could it be that different regions of the world have different parental roles?  The 'female side' in the US may be different than the 'female side' in Zaire/Congo or whatever the current name is!!
> 
> I agree. However, let's remember that social roles (e.g. mother, father, etc.) follow and are informed by biology. Therefore, mothers and fathers across cultures behave in many ways similarly.
> 
> Saludos


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## Everness

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Perhaps then there is no problem with arranged marriages....instead maybe it's marriage in general that is flawed



I think we need to revisit the idea of marriage. Many of us have forgotten that marriage as a social institution is subservient to family. The main purpose of marriage is procreation and the provision of a roof (mom and dad)  that will ensure that children survive and thrive. This is what Mother Nature (I hope you find this expression more acceptable than God) had in mind when she created sexual beings and two genders. She is invested on the survival of the human species. 

Bottom line: Marriage is a means to an end and not an end in itself. We have separated the affective (romantic love) from the functional (reproduction and parenting) and we are paying the consequences. We have denaturalized marriage by considering it a way of ensuring our happiness as individuals. This transgression has now become a public health issue.


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## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> I think we need to revisit the idea of marriage. Many of us have forgotten that marriage as a social institution is subservient to family. The main purpose of marriage is procreation and the provision of a roof (mom and dad)  that will ensure that children survive and thrive. This is what Mother Nature (I hope you find this expression more acceptable than God) had in mind when she created sexual beings and two genders. She is invested on the survival of the human species.



Mother Nature has not been shown to have "a mind" in which to conceive a goal.
Sexual generation is what happened. It has worked remarkably well.
This ranges from creatures like snakes and other reptiles which reproduce sexually but lay eggs they never see hatch, through species where the male plays no part in the rearing or feeding of the offspring to ourselves and other species with long immature stages where both parents are needed to feed and bring some of the offspring to independence.
The ensuring of 'thrive and survive' is not a concomitant of sexual procreation - far from it.




> We have separated the affective (romantic love) from the functional (reproduction and parenting)


When did we put them together?
Is there any body of evidence to show that people married for love in centuries past?



> We have denaturalized marriage by considering it a way of ensuring our happiness as individuals.


I agree with you on this.
Marriage as a contracted vow, for life, is in flitters as an institution. Third marriages are not uncommon as people seek that elusive 'one' who will be the right one for them. I fail to see how one can take seriously anyone who makes that same promise a second time, let alone a third.
The idea that "I" am more important than the "family I form part of" is something I can only put down to the attitude which finds a consonance in the L'Oreal slogan —> Because I'm worth it - another way of saying "Me first and damn the cost!"


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## Yuribear

Dear Everness, it gives me the creeps just to read your message. Do you really think that way????? I hope that I am not reading correctly and that you are not resuming marriage to a mere biological, procreation, kind of thing!

Panjabigator, meri pyari dost, my heart aches for you. I suggest you go ahead and read the vows of the 7 steps of a Hindu marriage again, regardless of whatever religion you belong to, and if you do not have them let me know and I will email them to you separately. 

Although it is true and I agree with what has been said that nowadays, people tend to look in the wrong direction when they get married, and marriage becomes more a mean to satisfy personal needs, than a commitment to grow together spiritually, mentaly and emotionally. I am happy to inform you that there are many couples still around who do make a true commitment to their partner. Marriage is a growing phase, and it takes very hard work to let go of your ego and support your partner. It is a give an take, both ways and communication is essential. 

My husband and I knew exactly what we were looking for when we decided to get married. We made our vows, ... and we have them written down on our wall to remind us everyday what our marriage is really all about. Did you know that Bapu and Kasturba, renewed their vows every morning? and THAT was an arranged marriage. I truly hope you will one day have clear enough in you mind what marriage is all about, because until you don't have THAT clear, there is no way you can find that precious soul to share your life with.


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## ceci '79

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Dear Everness, it gives me the creeps just to read your message.


 
I don't necessarily agree with Everness, but you definitely need to toughen up a bit!  

Seriously, I have never understood those people who, upon hearing an opinion they don't agree with, start calling it "worrying", "scary", "dangerous", "disturbing", "unsettling", "disquieting", and so on. It' just that you disagree with it. This is just another (pretty low, in my opinion) way to discredit other debaters.


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## badgrammar

Hello Yuribear....

Yes, Bapu and Kasturba, there is a grand story of an arranged marriage and a love that transcended personal desires...  Could you send me the seven steps?  I am very interested in that...  



			
				Yuribear said:
			
		

> I suggest you go ahead and read the vows of the 7 steps of a Hindu marriage again, regardless of whatever religion you belong to, and if you do not have them let me know and I will email them to you separately.
> 
> Did you know that Bapu and Kasturba, renewed their vows every morning? and THAT was an arranged marriage. I truly hope you will one day have clear enough in you mind what marriage is all about, because until you don't have THAT clear, there is no way you can find that precious soul to share your life with.


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## Maria Maya

If you really insist to call biology to explain marriage, i would say that nothing about biology (i mean, human behavior as an animal) supports the idea about marrying one person and staying with that same person "til death do us part". I even would say (without any basis, i am not a student of the area) that it makes more sense to me that what we call passion, and lasts a couple of years, is a natural mechanism that ties the male to the female while pregnancy and children are too young, because they need protection. Can't this be true ? We usually call nature to give validation to our arguments. It is of human nature not to follow to closely nature. That is why there is many arrangments to what we call marriage. All of them have a function inside the societies they are, with advantages and disadvantages.  From what I read here, arranged marriages seem to function well in societies where extended families have a life together (youngers take care of olders, mothers/grandmothers stay with children, and so on), i have doubts about its functionality among groups where capitalism and urbanization molded life, where families are small groups in which both partners have a job.


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## panjabigator

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Dear Everness, it gives me the creeps just to read your message. Do you really think that way????? I hope that I am not reading correctly and that you are not resuming marriage to a mere biological, procreation, kind of thing!
> 
> Panjabigator, *mera pyara dost*, my heart aches for you. I suggest you go ahead and read the vows of the 7 steps of a Hindu marriage again, regardless of whatever religion you belong to, and if you do not have them let me know and I will email them to you separately.
> 
> Although it is true and I agree with what has been said that nowadays, people tend to look in the wrong direction when they get married, and marriage becomes more a mean to satisfy personal needs, than a commitment to grow together spiritually, mentaly and emotionally. I am happy to inform you that there are many couples still around who do make a true commitment to their partner. Marriage is a growing phase, and it takes very hard work to let go of your ego and support your partner. It is a give an take, both ways and communication is essential.
> 
> My husband and I knew exactly what we were looking for when we decided to get married. We made our vows, ... and we have them written down on our wall to remind us everyday what our marriage is really all about. Did you know that Bapu and Kasturba, renewed their vows every morning? and THAT was an arranged marriage. I truly hope you will one day have clear enough in you mind what marriage is all about, because until you don't have THAT clear, there is no way you can find that precious soul to share your life with.



I just bolded that area to change it for a man, since last I checked I was one 

Anyway, I dont feel that my comment on excluding God was at all discriminant and sorry if it is interpreted that way.  I'll leave it at that.


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## panjabigator

Perhaps when Im older my view of marriage shall soften up, but I don't see it happening at all in the near future.  If anything, mine would be a love marriage...my parents do not want to see me get into the same predicament they did...but I dont care if it were an arranged one...it's my choice in the end anyway!


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## hohodicestu

Hi

I totally agree with Moogey, but I also think that sometimes arranged-marriages end up well too. They may get married first and fall in love after.


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## Yuribear

ceci '79 said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily agree with Everness, but you definitely need to toughen up a bit!
> 
> Seriously, I have never understood those people who, upon hearing an opinion they don't agree with, start calling it "worrying", "scary", "dangerous", "disturbing", "unsettling", "disquieting", and so on. It' just that you disagree with it. This is just another (pretty low, in my opinion) way to discredit other debaters.



Ciao Ceci,

Well ... your reply tickles me    (oooops, just joking).......I am not trying to discredit Everness... I guess I just sometimes express openly how some things that are being said make me feel. Useless to pretend that I am not touched and I simply disagree. I am simply trying to understand where Everness is coming from with such an answer and when I say that it gives me the creeps, it is because I am wondering what is happening inside of him to make such a frivolous statement? This is not a "species reproduction discussion" it is about marriage. Expressions are not merely mentally calculated things, very often they come as a reaction from emotions. 
Va bene?


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