# Pronunciation: 冯 (von)



## yuechu

大家好！

I was recently looking up the Chinese name (阿格里帕·冯·内特斯海姆) for the polymath Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa and was wondering whether 冯 should be pronounced Feng2 or ping2? (I think it's Feng2, right?)
Thanks!


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## Yujan Chou

Yes, you are right. It should be pronounced feng2 here.


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## yuechu

Thanks, Yujan Chou!


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## Messquito

In southern China many people pronounce it fóng.
This thread talks about that [labial sounds (b/p/m/f/w)+eng[ become [(b/p/m/f/w)+ong] in some areas.


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## Skatinginbc

Why is 冯 _feng_ [fəŋ], not 芬 _fen_ [fən], employed to transcribe German _von_ [fɔn] when [fən] is apparently closer to [fɔn] than [fəŋ] is?  I think the reason is that 冯 here actually reads _fong_ [fɔŋ] as Messquito correctly pointed out in #4.


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## fyl

Even to my northerner ears, feng is much closer than fen, because it is a back vowel and not a front vowel.
I think the difference pointed out by Messquito is mostly about roundness, not front vs back.


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## Skatinginbc

You're right, fyl.  It's about roundedness.
BTW, this is German von.


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## fyl

Thanks for the link. Well, this does sound a bit like a 芬... The 'n' is clearer than my imagination..


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## Skatinginbc

德國鋼琴家*漢斯凡*畢羅/*漢斯*馮*畢羅*/*漢斯*封*畢羅*(Hans von Bulow 1830~1894) ==> Note: German "von" equates Dutch "van" 凡 (as in 凡高/*梵高* Vincent van Gogh，1853－1890).  Their distinction is like _caught_ vs. _cot_ (I mean: they sound the same to some people) or, if there is indeed a distinction, British _fawn_ vs. American _fawn_.  
馮 (中古开口) as a transliteration for _von_ makes sense to me only if it reads fóng2 (封, 中古合口).  Otherwise, I would rather have 凡 fan2 (an open vowel) than 馮 feng2 (a close-mid vowel).


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## SuperXW

baosheng said:


> I was recently looking up the Chinese name (阿格里帕·冯·内特斯海姆) for the polymath Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa and was wondering whether 冯 should be pronounced Feng2 or ping2? (I think it's Feng2, right?)


Why ping2...? Does 冯 has such a sound?


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## Yujan Chou

SuperXW said:


> Why ping2...? Does 冯 has such a sound?


You might wanted to check out the idiom 暴虎冯河


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## yuechu

SuperXW said:


> Why ping2...? Does 冯 has such a sound?


The dictionary I use says that with the pronunciation "ping2", it can mean "to gallop", "to assist" and "to attack". I'm not sure if it's a common word here for this pronunciation though. (maybe not, right?)

Thanks, everyone, for your replies!


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## retrogradedwithwind

冯，今天只有两音两义。
Feng2, 姓。
Ping2，只用于暴虎冯河一词。

在平水韵中，冯属东韵，和“风、东”同韵。所以，是读fong2的


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## Youngfun

Skatinginbc said:


> 德國鋼琴家*漢斯凡*畢羅/*漢斯*馮*畢羅*/*漢斯*封*畢羅*(Hans von Bulow 1830~1894) ==> Note: German "von" equates Dutch "van" 凡 (as in 凡高/*梵高* Vincent van Gogh，1853－1890).  Their distinction is like _caught_ vs. _cot_ (I mean: they sound the same to some people) or, if there is indeed a distinction, British _fawn_ vs. American _fawn_.
> 馮 (中古开口) as a transliteration for _von_ makes sense to me only if it reads fóng2 (封, 中古合口).  Otherwise, I would rather have 凡 fan2 (an open vowel) than 馮 feng2 (a close-mid vowel).



In Standard Mandarin (at least Mainland Mandarin — Northern accent), you cannot have ong before b, p, m, f.

But I've always had the impression that transliteration of foreign sounds use eng for /on/, such as 蒙古, I suspect that they considered the dialectal pronunciation.

Also, Northern accent eng [ɤŋ] has a more back (not sure if this is the correct term) vowel than my own pronunciation [əŋ] (I use the same vowel for eng and en), so that means that their eng is closer to the /on/ sound.

And Northern accent ong [ʊŋ] also has a more closed vowel than mine: [ɔŋ~oŋ].
Before realizing this, I've never understood why Wade-Giles and many other romanizations transcribed it as "ung". Now I forgot how Zhuyin Fuhao transcribes this rhyme, maybe ㄨㄥ?


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## Skatinginbc

Youngfun said:


> Also, Northern accent eng [ɤŋ] has a more back (not sure if this is the correct term) vowel than my own pronunciation [əŋ] (I use the same vowel for eng and en), so that means that their eng is closer to the /on/ sound.


Vowel backness is not as relevant as vowel openness in this case because German "von" has a _fronted_ back vowel, that is, a back vowel becomes somewhat fronted due to anticipatory assimilation with the front consonant /n/.  This applies to American English "fun" as well.  Many Chinese students pronounce "fun" with a true back vowel (i.e., [ʌ]) rather than a _fronted_ back vowel (close to [ɜ]) and therefore betray a foreign accent.

BTW, I believe the majority of Taiwan people pronounce 冯 as fong2.


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## SuperXW

baosheng said:


> The dictionary I use says that with the pronunciation "ping2", it can mean "to gallop", "to assist" and "to attack". I'm not sure if it's a common word here for this pronunciation though. (maybe not, right?)


It is not common at all. I don't think it has meanings of "to assist" or "to attack".


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## Yujan Chou

SuperXW said:


> It is not common at all. I don't think it has meanings of "to assist" or "to attack".


The meaning "to assist" is also unknown to me. The only remotely related meaning that I could find is "凭借，依靠 [rely on]" when 冯 serves as a 通假字 for 凭。But 冯 does have the meaning "to attack, to humiliate, to bully" as in 冯弱犯寡，则眚之(《周礼·夏官·大司马》) 。

Update: Well I think I found the example, 冯 does mean "to assist" as in 君大夫冯父、母、妻、长子，不冯庶子(《礼记·丧大记》)。


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## SuperXW

Good to know, Chou!


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