# trust / truth



## ThomasK

Could you give me your words for 'truth' and 'trust'? 

No link in Dutch: 
- *waarheid*, truth
- _*vertrouwen*_, trust

[(Of course some active Foreros will have noticed in the meantime that I keep circling around some concepts (searching for light... ;-), such as _faith _vs. _belief_, _faithfulness/ trust_, and the links between them. I find these links interesting because they seem to throw light on the meaning and their 'interrelatedness' (?) of the words (or concepts), which I wish to examine from a broader than religious point of view. I consider making a list mentioning both roots and semantic parallels (equivalents), but... ]


----------



## apmoy70

No link in Greek also:


Trust: «Εμπιστοσύνη» [embisto'sini] (fem.)


Truth: *«Αλήθεια»* [a'liθi.a] (fem.) < Classical fem. noun *«ἀλήθειᾱ» ălḗtʰeiā* --> lit. _that which cannot be hidden, be unknown_; compound; privative prefix *«ἀ-» a-*, prevocalic *«ἀν-» an-* (PIE *n̥-, after vocalisation of the nasal *n̥-HV-) + Classical v. *«λήθω» lḗtʰō* --> _to be hidden, unknown_ (PIE *leh₂dʰ-, _to be hidden_ cf Lat. latēre, _to be concealed, hidden_).


----------



## arielipi

Hebrew:
truth א-מ-ת '-m-t
trust - א-מ-נ '-m-n;
no initial relation but trust is also believe (in root) in hebrew; so if one believes another, he believes he speaks the truth.
also, truth root is used for confirmation, strengthen of what was said and such.


----------



## ThomasK

I suppose you are hinting at an underlying (psychological...?) link that we all recognize: that trust must be founded on truth. Or do you mean something else? 

I just checked on Swedish, because I remembered *'tro' *(linked with _trust_, and _vertrouwen _in Dutch), meaning 'believe'. I now find _*förtrënde *_as a noun, '(the) trust', and *sanningen *as 'truth' (probably linked with 'sense')...

I thought of French, and of course, *verité *and *confiance *(_foi _???) don't have a common root. They are related with _veritas _and _fides _in Latin (the latter meaning 'faith, trust, trustworthiness, loyalty', but also 'promise, pledge'). 

I am very curious about Slavic languages, where the _ver_-/у*вер*енность root turns up in 'faith', I believe (but I might be mistaken), and I wonder whether it is not linked with the Latin _veritas_.


----------



## bazq

arielipi said:


> Hebrew:
> truth א-מ-ת '-m-t
> trust - א-מ-נ '-m-n;
> no initial relation but trust is also believe (in root) in hebrew; so if one believes another, he believes he speaks the truth.
> also, truth root is used for confirmation, strengthen of what was said and such.



Both truth "אמת" and trust "אמון" come from the same root "א-מ-נ" ( '-m-n ). 
א-מ-ת is a relatively new root derived from the noun "אמת". 
There is a connection between "truth" and "trust" in Hebrew, a complete connection (both stem from the same root).


----------



## arielipi

bazq said:


> Both truth "אמת" and trust "אמון" come from the same root "א-מ-נ" ( '-m-n ).
> א-מ-ת is a relatively new root derived from the noun "אמת".
> There is a connection between "truth" and "trust" in Hebrew, a complete connection (both stem from the same root).


Wikimilon says its the two roots actually, it defines '-m-t as a shoresh gazur (derived root)... pretty interesting.


----------



## origumi

arielipi said:


> Wikimilon says its the two roots actually, it defines '-m-t as a shoresh gazur (derived root)... pretty interesting.


See here: http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2011/03/אמת-ונכון/


----------



## Grefsen

Norwegian:

*stole på*  - trust/rely on

*sannhet* - truth/veracity


----------



## ThomasK

Would you be able to trace the roots of these words, Grefsen? I had thought 'sannhet'  might be related with 'sense', etc., but no idea what the root of 'stole ..." could be. Any idea? _(Is it related with the German/ Dutch 'stellen'???)_


----------



## ancalimon

In Turkish, trustworthy and true~straight might be related.

dürüst: trustworth
doğru: true, through~towards, straight, trustworthy, correct, right  (related with doğu meaning east and doğ meaning rising of the sun.. and also might be with the catchall ethnonym Turk itself)

The thing is dürüst is listed as a Persian loan inside TDK dictionary ( http://tdk.gov.tr/index.php?option=com_bts&arama=kelime&guid=TDK.GTS.5344982e5c28b0.13540925 ) but it still sounds like it could be related with the word doğru.


----------



## ThomasK

I had been thinking the link trust/truth was accidental, but now... Thanks for the information...


----------



## Treaty

In Persian they are related. We use the following (Ar. = Arabic loanword):

True[th]: _dorost[__ī__], rāst[__ī__], ḥaq[īqat]_ (Ar.)Trust: _eʿtemād_ (Ar.), and somehow _bāvar _and_ eṭmīnān_ (Ar.)



ancalimon said:


> The thing is dürüst is listed as a Persian loan inside TDK dictionary ( http://tdk.gov.tr/index.php?option=com_bts&arama=kelime&guid=TDK.GTS.5344982e5c28b0.13540925 ) but it still sounds like it could be related with the word doğru.



Turkish dürüst is from NPers. _durust _that is from MPers. _drust, _meaning healthy and right (cognate of _dorūd/drōd_ "hello" in NPers./MPers.), cognate of synonymous Avestan _druuañt- _(if I transliterate it right). The _u_ between _d_ and _r_ is because formal NPers. lost the ability to pronounce consecutive consonants in the beginning of the word.


----------



## arielipi

origumi said:


> See here: http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2011/03/אמת-ונכון/


Thank you.
translated from the academy:
The words אמת and נכון, indicate matters that match the reality and confirmation of the existence of something, share basic tangible significance: existence and compliance, strength and stability.

נכון is more like simple confirmation nowadays.


----------



## ahmedcowon

In Arabic:

Truth: حقيقة /ḥaqīqa/ - صدق /Sidq/
Trust: ثقة /thiqa/ - ائتمان /e'timān/



ancalimon said:


> doğru: true, through~towards, straight, trustworthy, correct, right  (related with doğu meaning east and doğ meaning rising of the sun.. and also might be with the catchall ethnonym Turk itself)



We use this Turkish loanword in some Arabic dialects with the same meaning (pronounced as "doghri")


----------



## ThomasK

Do I perceive a link between the two words, Ahmed (-iqa), or is that just an ending?


----------



## ancalimon

ahmedcowon said:


> In Arabic:
> 
> Truth: حقيقة /ḥaqīqa/ - صدق /Sidq/
> Trust: ثقة /thiqa/ - ائتمان /e'timān/
> 
> 
> 
> We use this Turkish loanword in some Arabic dialects with the same meaning (pronounced as "doghri")



We also use "hakikat" meaning truth in Turkish. But as usual the foreign word is used when a little bit of drama is to be added.  Generally "gerçek" is used instead.


----------



## ThomasK

Treaty said:


> In Persian they are related. We use the following (Ar. = Arabic loanword):
> 
> True[th]: _dorost[__ī__], rāst[__ī__], ḥaq[īqat]_ (Ar.)Trust: _eʿtemād_ (Ar.), and somehow _bāvar _and_eṭmīnān_ (Ar.)
> 
> Turkish dürüst is from NPers. _durust _that is from MPers. _drust, _meaning healthy and right (cognate of _dorūd/drōd_ "hello" in NPers./MPers.)


Very interesting information, thanks.  But could you comment on the difference between _*eʿt*emād _and _bāvar, __*eṭ*mīnān_ ? On the precise difference, I mean, and maybe on the et- if that is somehow relevant, not just a coincidence.

I am looking forward to a reply with regard to Slavic languages... (Thanks in advance)


----------



## myšlenka

ThomasK said:


> Would you be able to trace the roots of these words, Grefsen? I had thought 'sannhet'  might be related with 'sense', etc., but no idea what the root of 'stole ..." could be. Any idea? _(Is it related with the German/ Dutch 'stellen'???)_


Scandinavian _sann/sand_ comes from PIE *es-, _to be/exist_. Norwegian/Danish _stole__ på_ comes from PIE *sta-, _to stand_.


----------



## ThomasK

Aha... Interesting. Just one thing: is -_ann _a root often used in Swedish? And are you quite sure about the 'exist'? You may well be right, you know, I just ask because there are other hypotheses about the Dutch _zin_/ German _sinn, _which might be related etymologically, or so I thought (or hoped)...


----------



## myšlenka

ThomasK said:


> Aha... Interesting. Just one thing: is -_ann _a root often used in Swedish? And are you quite sure about the 'exist'? You may well be right, you know, I just ask because there are other hypotheses about the Dutch _zin_/ German _sinn, _which might be related etymologically, or so I thought (or hoped)...


If _-ann_ is a suffix in Swedish? I don't speak Swedish, but I don't think it is.
Yes, I am quite sure it's related to PIE *es-_, to exist._


----------



## ThomasK

I meant: in Norwegian, forgive me. But then I do believe you, you know... Just wanted to be sure...


----------



## ahmedcowon

ahmedcowon said:


> Truth: حقيقة /ḥaqīqa/ - صدق /Sidq/
> Trust: ثقة /thiqa/ - ائتمان /e'timān/





ThomasK said:


> Do I perceive a link between the two words, Ahmed (-iqa), or is that just an ending?



The 4 words are from 4 different roots:

(ḥaqīqa) can also mean "reality" and it's from the root (h-q-q)
(Sidq) usually used as the opposite of "lying" from the root (S-d-q)
(thiqa) can also mean "confidence, reliance" from the root (w-th-q)
(e'timān) means "credit" like in "credit card" from the root ('-m-n)


----------



## ThomasK

Very nteresting information, Ahmed, thanks. Yet, I am quite surprised to read that truth and reality can be referred to using the same word, but I guess the first two have a different use, are not perfect synonyms. 

Could we say with regard to /thiqa/ and /e'timan/ that the latter is the applied version of the former, which is more theoretical?


----------



## Awwal12

In *Russian* they're not directly related.
The basic word for "truth" is правда 'právda' (the most literal morpheme-by-morpheme translation would be 'rightness').
"Trust", in turn, will be доверие 'dovériye' (literally - "tobeliefdom"), most closely related to the words вера 'véra' (faith, belief, trust; religion), верить 'vérit'' (to believe, to have faith, to trust) and верный 'vérnyi' (true to smb/smth, faithful, loyal; also correct, accurate - about results, data etc.). The word synonymous to 'correct' in the last meaning is 'právil'nyi' (lit. righteous); so, an indirect semantic link connecting the two words is still present.


----------



## porkkanaraaste

Not related in Finnish.

trust = luottamus
truth = totuus


----------



## ThomasK

@Awwal: would you have any idea of the etymology of this *vér*-element? Could it be traced back to the same root as Latin 'veritas'? 

@Porkkanaraaste: do you have a different root for the word 'true' then, *jossa*, according to Google Translate? Can you trace back one of those 'true' roots in other words in Finnish?


----------



## porkkanaraaste

No, _totuus_ is derived from _tosi _'true, real', a loan possibly from Proto-Germanic *_stodia _'firm, steady' or Proto-Baltic *_statija _'upright'.
_
Jossa _is the relative pronoun _joka _in inessive case.


----------



## arielipi

ahmedcowon said:


> The 4 words are from 4 different roots:
> 
> (ḥaqīqa) can also mean "reality" and it's from the root (h-q-q)
> (Sidq) usually used as the opposite of "lying" from the root (S-d-q)
> (thiqa) can also mean "confidence, reliance" from the root (w-th-q)
> (e'timān) means "credit" like in "credit card" from the root ('-m-n)


in hebrew the root ח-ק-ק kh-q-q is used for rules, laws.
ס-ד-ק s-d-q is used for crack (as in crack a bone) and can be used in relationships descriptions. essentially its like a rift.
ו-ת-ק v-t-q is used for seniority related stuff.

also i've seen you asked about relation of reality and truth/trust... in hebrew reality comes from the root that is also used for 'find'.
מ-צ-א m-ts-' 
מציאות metsi'ut reality
מצא matsa found.


----------



## ahmedcowon

ThomasK said:


> Very nteresting information, Ahmed, thanks. Yet, I am quite surprised to read that truth and reality can be referred to using the same word, but I guess the first two have a different use, are not perfect synonyms.
> 
> Could we say with regard to /thiqa/ and /e'timan/ that the latter is the applied version of the former, which is more theoretical?



_ḥaqīqa_ is the common word from "truth", "reality" and "fact".

_e'timan_ is usually used with thing related to business while _thiqa_ is used generally



arielipi said:


> in hebrew the root ח-ק-ק kh-q-q is used for rules, laws.
> ס-ד-ק s-d-q is used for crack (as in crack a bone) and can be used in relationships descriptions. essentially its like a rift.
> ו-ת-ק v-t-q is used for seniority related stuff.
> 
> also i've seen you asked about relation of reality and truth/trust... in hebrew reality comes from the root that is also used for 'find'.
> מ-צ-א m-ts-'
> מציאות metsi'ut reality
> מצא matsa found.



ḥ-q-q in Arabic is also used for rights, investigations


----------

