# Persian: بار کردن



## seitt

Greetings

I think this is the definition of "بار کردن" (to cook/boil slowly for a long time):
غله و جز آن . آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را. مظروف دیگی . مظروف ظرفی . هر چیز که آنرا خورند. (برهان ). قوت و خوراک هرچه باشد. (ناظم الاطباء

My problem is with the first two sentences. Re غله و جز آن ., what does جز آن mean? Is there a kasre after جز?

Please could you translate the second sentence?
 آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را. مظروف دیگی .

Best and many thanks

Simon


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## Aryamp

There's no Kasre. I think it wants to say "other things besides cereals" or "cereals and the rest"

آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را. . =

To cook whatever they put in the pot such as grains, vegetables, meat and etc  

مظروف دیگی= 
The contents of a pot


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## seitt

Thank you so much, indeed most helpful.


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## seitt

Coming back after a break, I should like to ask another question about this sentence, please:


> آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را.


My question: Why the را at the end of the sentence? What does it refer to?


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## searcher123

> Is there a kasre after جز?


Yes, there is a Kasre on جز. it is جزء in reality and mean "partitive".



> Why the را at the end of the sentence? What does it refer to?


It is because of its old structure. According with modern Persian structure it will be as the follow: 

آنچه از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن كه براي پختن در دیگ ریزند


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## Aryamp

searcher123 said:


> Yes, there is a Kasre on جز. it is جزء in reality and mean "partitive".




There is no kasre! ء  is not a Kasre it´s called a   همزه and then جز and جزء are two different words (one from arabic origin the other pahlavi) :

جزء = part , portion  
جز = except , but , other than


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## Aryamp

seitt said:


> Coming back after a break, I should like to ask another question about this sentence, please:
> 
> My question: Why the را at the end of the sentence? What does it refer to?



I think it wants to say something like this :
آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را *گویند

*No doubt it´s an old structure. But the point in putting "ra" after "pokhtan" is that پختن is the key word here _(and not آنچه در دیگ ریزند). _What the dictionary wants to say is that بار کردن can also mean *To Cook *whatever they put in the pot.

By the way I think the definitions given there are not all for بارکردن specifically but بار in general.
(actually I'm not sure if بارکردن would mean the same thing as بار گذاشتن , I think بار or بار گذاشتن are the entry words for which those definitions are given)


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## seitt

Many thanks, excellent.


> آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را.


So is the را an equivalent of "in order to"? I.e. Colloquial Persian “برای پختن”?


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## Aryamp

seitt said:


> Many thanks, excellent.
> 
> So is the را an equivalent of "in order to"? I.e. Colloquial Persian “برای پختن”?



I would say no , in fact in old dictionaries it was very common to use this structure when giving the meaning of a word : 

را گویند............................. 

Specially برهان seems to use this structure a lot for example the meaning of بالیده as given by Borhan :
آدمی و درخت و جز آن *را گویند* که تنومند و بلند و دراز شده باشد. 

And then again "joz an" which implies other things that could be similar in a way so I think "joz an" could also be translated as (the like)


I think گویند after پختن is omitted by the rule of Ellipsis, we need the complete entry from the original Borhan to be sure of that.


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## seitt

Many thanks, most enlightening – ah, something has just occurred to me. Would it be better to use a comma as follows?
آنچه در دیگ ریزند، از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را.


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## Aryamp

No I don´t think so. That would separate the two parts that are actually linked and must be considered together.  I wouldn't say it's totally wrong though, just that I don't see any problem without comma in there.


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## seitt

Much obliged - as the را  in the sentence goes with a word meaning "they say", which is understood, can I add another را like this?
آنچه را در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن را.

Why is it ریزند but پختن - surely the same people are carrying out the action? Why not پختند?


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## Aryamp

There are different places we can add را

آنچه را در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن
آنچه  در دیگ ریزند را از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن پختن
آنچه در دیگ ریزند از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و جز آن را پختن

In the first case it seems the emphasis is put on the things that are put in the pot (compared to things that are put in some other place) 

The other examples follow the structure of :  غذا را پختن   just that in the last version را is shifted to the end of the object clause.

But we also have غذا پختن , there is a delicate difference between when Ra is used and when it isn´t (e.g. غذا خوردن <> غذا را خوردن)

In Borhan, the structure is the same as غذا پختن or other  general compound verb forms such as : 
  سیب زمینی سرخ کردن ، سبزی پاک کردن ، شام درست کردن ،  
etc

I think Ra after آنچه is not necessary really, it wronly gives emphasis to a part that does not need it.  But this is a complicated sentence structure and I'm really struggling here to explain things , so sorry if I'm not able to clarify it efficiently. But that sentence in simple persian would be something like :

پختنِ هر آنچه در دیگ بریزند مانند حبوبات و سبزی و گوشت و غیره

Modern dictionaries don't usually use that structure _را گویند _anymore but if I work that into the phrase it will be something like :
به پختنِ هر آنچه در دیگ بریزند-مانند حبوبات و سبزی و گوشت و غیره -  گفته می شود


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## Aryamp

seitt said:


> Why is it ریزند but پختن - surely the same people are carrying out the action? Why not پختند?



پختن must be infinitive because obviously that's the definition given, that's the main word : To cook 

آنچه در دیگ ریزند  seems to have an active voice while in fact its function is the same as a passive phrase : 

پختن آنچه در دیگ _*ریخته شود*_

This is a special case where "they" in the active voice is very general and works the same way as passive voice.


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## searcher123

Aryamp said:


> There is no kasre! ء  is not a Kasre it´s called a   همزه and then جز and جزء are two different words (one from arabic origin the other pahlavi) :
> 
> جزء = part , portion
> جز = except , but , other than



So this sentence have a different meaning for me  May be I'm wrong, but جز in this sentence mean "part" and "portion" for me. In other words, I'm reading it as follow:

آنچه از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و اجزاي آنها كه براي پختن در دیگ ریزند


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## Aryamp

searcher123 said:


> So this sentence have a different meaning for me  May be I'm wrong, but جز in this sentence mean "part" and "portion" for me. In other words, I'm reading it as follow:
> 
> آنچه از حبوب و بُقول و گوشت و اجزاي آنها كه براي پختن در دیگ ریزند



به چند دلیل این واژه جز است و نه جزء 
1. واژه جزء به معنی بخش یا قسمتی از چیزی حتماً باید با همزه نوشته شود و یا با واو در پایان هم می نویسند.
2.از مفهوم جمله مشخص است که قصد نویسنده معنی "مانند آن و غیره" بوده است و نه بخشی 
3.جزئی از گوشت همان گوشت است و بخشی از حبوبات همان حبوبات پس نیازی به تکرار آن نیست و اگر منظور اجزای تشکیل دهنده باشد که مثلا اجزای تشکیل دهنده گوشت یا نخود چه است که نیاز به ذکر آن باشد؟
4.اما مهم ترین دلیل آنکه ترکیب "جز آن" بسیار معمول و پر کاربرد است و نمونه های بسیاری از آن را که کمتر شبهه  انگیز باشد  می توان یافت :

چاردس و پا: چهار دست و پا. (دهخدا)روشي در راه رفتن چون روش سگ و گوسفند و اسب و *جز آن* . شيوه راه رفتني چون راه رفتن حيوانات
چاپ مجموع عملیاتی است که متن خام را به اثر درخور انتشار مانند کتاب، مجله، روزنامه، و *جز آن* تبدیل کند

می: شراب قرمز و شراب انگور. مطلق شراب اعم از اینکه از انگور حاصل آید یا مویز و خرما و *جز آن* (لغتنامه دهخدا)

چاه : گودي دايره اي عميقي که در زمين جهت بيرون آوردن آب و *جز آن *کنند.مغاک . چال . (ناظم الاطباء)


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