# außer mir/ich



## Whodunit

I often wonder if it is correct to say "alle außer mir". I think in certain cases, it should be "alle außer mir" and in some other circumstances it'd be better to say "alle außer ich", for instance:


_nominative:_
Es waren alle da - außer mir.
Es waren alle da - außer ich.   

_nominative:_
Alle bekamen etwas zu essen - außer mir.
Alle bekamen etwas zu essen - außer ich.   


_genitive:_
Es wurden alle Pullover beschlagnahmt - außer meiner.   
Es wurden alle Pullover beschlagnahmt - außer mir.

_genitive:_
Die Häuser aller Anrainer unseres Flusses wurden evakuiert - außer meines.   
Die Häuser aller Anrainer unseres Flusses wurden evakuiert - außer mir.


_dative:_
Sie gab jedem einen Kuss - außer mir.   

_dative:_
Es wurde allen geholfen - außer mir.   


_accusative:_
Die kennt doch echt jeden - außer mich.   
Die kennt doch echt jeden - außer mir.

_accusative:_
Die Polizei fand alle Kumpanen der Gang - außer mich.   
Die Polizei fand alle Kumpanen der Gang - außer mir.


The question: In elementary school, I learned "außer" requires the dative case:

mit, nach, bei, von, zu seit, außer, aus

So - now I wonder why I can put every case behind "außer", on condition that the preceding sentence/phrase is written in the proper case.

nom. - außer + nom.
gen. - außer + gen.
dat. - außer + dat.
acc. - außer + acc.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I often wonder if it is correct to say "alle außer mir". I think in certain cases, it should be "alle außer mir" and in some other circumstances it'd be better to say "alle außer ich", for instance:
> 
> 
> _nominative:_
> Es waren alle da - außer mir.
> Es waren alle da - außer ich.
> 
> _nominative:_
> Alle bekamen etwas zu essen - außer mir.
> Alle bekamen etwas zu essen - außer ich.
> 
> 
> _genitive:_
> Es wurden alle Pullover beschlagnahmt - außer meiner.
> Es wurden alle Pullover beschlagnahmt - außer mir.
> 
> _genitive:_
> Die Häuser aller Anrainer unseres Flusses wurden evakuiert - außer meines.
> Die Häuser aller Anrainer unseres Flusses wurden evakuiert - außer mir.
> 
> 
> _dative:_
> Sie gab jedem einen Kuss - außer mir.
> 
> _dative:_
> Es wurde allen geholfen - außer mir.
> 
> 
> _accusative:_
> Die kennt doch echt jeden - außer mich.
> Die kennt doch echt jeden - außer mir.
> 
> _accusative:_
> Die Polizei fand alle Kumpanen der Gang - außer mich.
> Die Polizei fand alle Kumpanen der Gang - außer mir.
> 
> 
> The question: In elementary school, I learned "außer" requires the dative case:
> 
> mit, nach, bei, von, zu seit, außer, aus
> 
> So - now I wonder why I can put every case behind "außer", on condition that the preceding sentence/phrase is written in the proper case.
> 
> nom. - außer + nom.
> gen. - außer + gen.
> dat. - außer + dat.
> acc. - außer + acc.


 
I learned that it's possible to use other cases for emphasis.  However, sometimes only the dative sounds correct.  I think it depends on the context.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> I learned that it's possible to use other cases for emphasis.  However, sometimes only the dative sounds correct.  I think it depends on the context.



No, it depends on the preceding case. The context never governs the case. (Oh my God, that sentence is totally wrong!)


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> No, it depends on the preceding case. The context never governs the case. (Oh my God, that sentence is totally wrong!)


 
That's not what I meant.  I meant whether you use the dative or the corresponding case depends on the context.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> That's not what I meant.  I meant whether you use the dative or the corresponding case depends on the context.



Well, ok, but that doesn't answer my question yet.    Why can we use all cases for ONE preposition. And is "außer" a preposition here?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, ok, but that doesn't answer my question yet.  Why can we use all cases for ONE preposition. And is "außer" a preposition here?


 
Yes, it is.

The reason is that it is a special preposition that always refers to something mentioned elsewhere in the sentence.  When that thing is a noun or pronoun, it can be acceptable to use the corresponding case.

Think of "wie":

*Ich kann nicht schwimmen wie du.*

Or "als":

*Du schwimmst viel besser als ich.*

Now compare:

*Alle - außer ich - schwimmen gut.*

That's the idea.  However, please wait for others for a more "entgültig" reply.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> That's the idea.  However, please wait for others for a more "entgültig" reply.



Okay, I will, but are there other _prepositions_ which have such a power?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Okay, I will, but are there other _prepositions_ which  have such a power?


 
I don't think so.

"Have such a power" isn't an idiom, is it?


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> I don't think so.
> 
> "Have such a power" isn't an idiom, is it?



I think so, because a word or phrase can't do anything powerful, can it? It's actually like "that says it all". Words can't say anything.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I think so, because a word or phrase can't do anything powerful, can it? It's actually like "that says it all". Words can't say anything.


 
Of course they can.  "Having power" is not physical, like "saying" is.  I wouldn't consider it an idiom.

An anthropomorphism, perhaps, at best - but not an idiom.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Of course they can.  "Having power" is not physical, like "saying" is.  I wouldn't consider it an idiom.
> 
> An anthropomorphism, perhaps, at best - but not an idiom.



Oh my God, what a word!.   

I'll delete the arrow then, since you're the native speaker.


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## gaer

Daniel, "außer" is both a conjunction and a preposition, if I'm reading what is below correctly. But I THINK that when it is used without connecting it to another word (außer wenn, außer dass, außer um), then it is a preposition and should use dative, except in this instance:

d) /mit Gen.; nur noch mit Land/ a. Landes gehen, flüchten (das Land verlassen); er hat lange a. Landes gelebt 

Warning: EVERYTHING I'm guessing could be totally wrong. But here is what I found. It uses the old spellings…

außer 
  1. /bezeichnet eine Einschränkung, eine Ausnahme von etw./ ausgenommen   a) /*Konj*., meist in den Verbindungen/ a. wenn, a. daß es sei denn, daß: ich gehe täglich spazieren, a. wenn es regnet; es gibt keinen Ausweg, a. daß wir ihn um Hilfe bitten; Vrenchen ... ging nicht von seiner Seite, außer um die Arzneimittel zu holen G. Keller 6,111 (Romeo); *umg.* Aber die [Stellagen] gehören Ihnen nicht, Sie! Außer Sie bezahlen sie Brecht Guter Mensch 233; *niemand kann mir helfen a. ich selbst* 

(I'm assuming everything after "umg." is affected by this label.)

b) /_*Präp. mit Dat.*_/ abgesehen von: *ich habe keinen Freund a. dir*; *a. ihm war niemand zu Hause*; er verlangt a. (neben) dem Lohn auch gute Behandlung 

For this reason, I'm guessing that some of your "correct" answers MAY reflect common usage and not what is grammatically correct, from a formal standpoint.

I almost didn't write this. I feel on VERY SHAKY GROUND when I make suggests to "Muttersprachler" about what may or may not be correct. 

Gaer


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Now compare:
> 
> *Alle - außer ich - schwimmen gut.*
> 
> That's the idea. However, please wait for others for a more "entgültig" reply.


Elroy, in this instance I think you are making the wrong association. I believe this is correct:

"Alle, außer mir und [außer] ein paar Klassenkameraden, haben Ferien. Ich aber nicht."

I think the problem is that here "außer" is used much like "except for".

"Everyone, except for me and a few classmates, have 'time off' (vacation [days]."

I think the case is governed by the preposition. But we'll see what our "natives" have to say. 

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> Elroy, in this instance I think you are making the wrong association. I believe this is correct:
> 
> "Alle, außer mir und [außer] ein paar Klassenkameraden, haben Ferien. Ich aber nicht."
> 
> I think the problem is that here "außer" is used much like "except for".
> 
> "Everyone, except for me and a few classmates, have 'time off' (vacation [days]."
> 
> I think the case is governed by the preposition. But we'll see what our "natives" have to say.
> 
> Gaer


 
My example may have been off (although Who didn't say so, so I don't know).  I was quite hard put to come up with an example in which using a different case was acceptable, so I was taking a risk.  My point was that I think it can be used with other cases with emphasis.  I'm not sure though; I'll have to do some more research on the topic or wait for our beloved "Muttersprachler."


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## elroy

Ok, here we go. Straight out of my grammar book (I hope this isn't plagiarism!)



> *Ich konnte nichts sehen außer Straßernlichtern.*
> *Niemand wird es machen können außer mir.*
> 
> _Außer_ can also be used with the same case as the word to which it refers back, rather than with the dative. The following are acceptable alterantives to the examples above:
> 
> 
> *Ich konnte nichts sehen außer Lichter.*
> *Niemand wird es machen können außer ich.*
> 
> 
> In effect _außer_ is used in such contexts to introduce *a phrase in apposition* rather than as a preposition. It can also be used in a similar way to introduce another preposition, e.g. _Außer bei Regen kann man hier spielen._


 
So it seems to me that it has to do with how the phrase is to be understood - as an apposition or as a regular prepositional phrase...


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Ok, here we go. Straight out of my grammar book (I hope this isn't plagiarism!)
> 
> 
> 
> *So it seems to me that it has to do with how the phrase is to be understood - as an apposition or as a regular prepositional phrase... *


This conflicts with what I found, but it makes perfect sense. Could it be that we are, as so often is the case, dealing with different levels of formality? I will be VERY interested to find out what Jens, Axl and Rafl might have to say about this.

For instance, if Who thinks that the "wrong" way (meaning the less formal way) sounds correct, to me that's very strong evidence of a gap between formal and informal usage. 

Don't you find this discussion ironic? After all, here we are, two Americans, debating German grammar.  

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> This conflicts with what I found, but it makes perfect sense. Could it be that we are, as so often is the case, dealing with different levels of formality? I will be VERY interested to find out what Jens, Axl and Rafl might have to say about this.
> 
> For instance, if Who thinks that the "wrong" way (meaning the less formal way) sounds correct, to me that's very strong evidence of a gap between formal and informal usage.
> 
> Don't you find this discussion ironic? After all, here we are, two Americans, debating German grammar.
> 
> Gaer


 
Ok, now that I've edited my post and gotten rid of the ugly formatting WR had decided it wanted...

Yes, I am also very interested in their replies.  And yes, this is rather ironic.  For all we know, we might be the blind leading the blind.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Ok, now that I've edited my post and gotten rid of the ugly formatting WR had decided it wanted...
> 
> Yes, I am also very interested in their replies. And yes, this is rather ironic. For all we know, we might be the blind leading the blind.


Well, Who is usually pretty sharp about grammar, so if he's confused, I suspect it's a confusing point. 

But sometimes we can be useful, I think. I often learn things in the English forums about English, although I have not had much time to visit that forum lately. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Well, Who is usually pretty sharp about grammar, so if he's confused, I suspect it's a confusing point.
> 
> But sometimes we can be useful, I think. I often learn things in the English forums about English, although I have not had much time to visit that forum lately.
> 
> Gaer



Good call! And I think you were very useful, Gaer and Elroy. Now I understand the problem better. Let me conclude our conversation with this: I think the problem is not easy to solve, because "außer" actually requires the dative, but in informal and colloquial ways, it's always possible to use it in every other case, but you both helped we very well.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Good call! I just started the thread in order to get replies from other regions and from one germanist - Jens.  But now I'm led by two learners here, haha. Okay, I think the problem is not easy to solve, because "außer" actually requires the dative, but in informal and colloquial ways, it's always possible to use it in every other case. Correct?


Who, with my limited knowledge I think you're exactly right.

Do you remember this:

1. "Pardon me interrupting, but I'd like to ask a question."
2. "Pardon *my* interrupting, but I'd like to ask a question."

I learned about this in the English forum. Only the second is correct, formally, but I'm very sure that a very large percentage of educated people use the first (me) at least sometimes in speech.

I think I'm echoing what Jens has said many times. It's not really a matter of right and wrong as much as regional or informal language (which is less structured) vs. formal language. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Who, with my limited knowledge I think you're exactly right.
> 
> Do you remember this:
> 
> 1. "Pardon me interrupting, but I'd like to ask a question."
> 2. "Pardon *my* interrupting, but I'd like to ask a question."
> 
> I learned about this in the English forum. Only the second is correct, formally, but I'm very sure that a very large percentage of educated people use the first (me) at least sometimes in speech.



Well, I could swear I haven't ever heard "Pardon my interrupting", rather "Pardon me interrupting" or "Pardon my interruption", but never with "my + -ing". I often listen to English music (of course, informal) and I've never heard of "my + -ing". So I'll    keep my chin up.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I could swear I haven't ever heard "Pardon my interrupting", rather "Pardon me interrupting" or "Pardon my interruption", but never with "my + -ing". I often listen to English music (of course, informal) and I've never heard of "my + -ing". So I'll  keep my chin up.


 
Your intuitions make sense, Who.  "My + -ing" sounds stilted in informal speech but is the only correct form to use formally.  Goes to show how "informal" the music you listen to really is. 

It's kind of ironic, actually, since I'm sure you're more exposed to written English than to spoken English.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Your intuitions make sense, Who.  "My + -ing" sounds stilted in informal speech but is the only correct form to use formally.  Goes to show how "informal" the music you listen to really is.



Have you really ever heard of "formal music"? I'm sorry, but what kind of music do you listen to?   



> It's kind of ironic, actually, since I'm sure you're more exposed to written English than to spoken English.



Yes, that's correct. Just because I have no chance to practice my spoken English, because I haven't been in school for long and my friends don't want to talk in English.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Have you really ever heard of "formal music"? I'm sorry, but what kind of music do you listen to?


 
Of course there's formal music.  What about hymns and classical songs?  Ancient ballads and medleys?

I'm sure Gaer can express this more eloquently than I, but it is certainly a sweeping generalization at best and an impetuous oversimplification at worst to assert that ALL music is informal.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Of course there's formal music.  What about hymns and classical songs?  Ancient ballads and medleys?
> 
> I'm sure Gaer can express this more eloquently than I, but it is certainly a sweeping generalization at best and an impetuous oversimplification at worst to assert that ALL music is informal.



Well, I can't speak for English classics or ballads, but I'm aware that in German they aren't always "politically correct". I have examples, if you want; but since we don't want to talk about German classics here, let's close this topic or wait for Gaer's opinion about "formal music".

PS: Hymns are of course always formal.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I can't speak for English classics or ballads, but I'm aware that in German they aren't always "politically correct". I have examples, if you want; but since we don't want to talk about German classics here, let's close this topic or wait for Gaer's opinion about "formal music".
> 
> PS: Hymns are of course always formal.


 
Politically correct ≠ formal

Yes, let's wait for Gaer.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Of course there's formal music. What about hymns and classical songs? Ancient ballads and medleys?
> 
> I'm sure Gaer can express this more eloquently than I, but it is certainly a sweeping generalization at best and an impetuous oversimplification at worst to assert that ALL music is informal.


That's a very tough question, and I seldom listen to music that has words. In other words, I listen almost completely to what most people would call "classical music" (really a wrong term) or things like film scores.

In general, I would expect the lyrics of most songs to reflect spoken English rather than more formal English—I think that is probably true for most songs written during the 20th century and right through to the the present time.

When you talk about "classical" songs, I'm not sure if you are talking about "classical" in the sense of Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Imrpessionistic, etc. or in the sense of "classics" (songs that might originally have simply been called "pop" but that have continued to be popular for many decades).

The only point I wanted to make (which I'm sure you understand very well) is that we could find words or phrases in English that parallel the kind of split in usage that we discovered when examining "außer mir/ich". 

I guess I was not much help!

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, I could swear I haven't ever heard "Pardon my interrupting", rather "Pardon me interrupting" or "Pardon my interruption", but never with "my + -ing". I often listen to English music (of course, informal) and I've never heard of "my + -ing". So I'll  keep my chin up.


Who, I'm sorry I started this here. I was lazy. Let me open up a new topic!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> When you talk about "classical" songs, I'm not sure if you are talking about "classical" in the sense of Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Imrpessionistic, etc. or in the sense of "classics" (songs that might originally have simply been called "pop" but that have continued to be popular for many decades).



At least I was talking about "classics" (Schlager in German ), and I think there're several classics (old pop songs) in German that consist of very informal German.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> At least I was talking about "classics" (Schlager in German ), and I think there're several classics (old pop songs) in German that consist of very informal German.


Ah, "old hits". 

Okay. Let's start another thread if we are going to continue discussing musical terms! 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Ah, "old hits".
> 
> Okay. Let's start another thread if we are going to continue discussing musical terms!
> 
> Gaer



I totally agree. I think we should either "cut to the chase" (but the topic is actually finished), or start a new thread. "Old hits" gefällt mir; ich glaube, "alte Schlager/Hits" auch schon mal gehört zu haben.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I totally agree. I think we should either "cut to the chase" (but the topic is actually finished), or start a new thread. "Old hits" gefällt mir; ich glaube, "alte Schlager/Hits" auch schon mal gehört zu haben.


I started a new thread. Go here. 

Gaer


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