# des belles filles, de belles filles



## jamie96

I find it difficult to understand when to use 'des', instead of 'de' when adejctives precede plural nouns. Which grammatical rule do I have to follow or to explain to french students.


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## [Marc]

That a tough one !!! (at least for me). I know by ear, but I don't know any rule...


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## pitchou

I'd say "des belles filles" is incorrect, but that's just me...


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## moe0204

pitchou said:


> I'd say "des belles filles" is incorrect, but that's just me...


Maybe "des belles filles" doesn't sound as wall as "de belles filles", but it is absolutely correct.


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## juliobenjimino

as in 'il y a beaucoup des belles filles'?
I would have used 'de' there. Oh dear


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## moe0204

with _beaucoup _: _de _only !


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## pitchou

Makes me think of something, if I may steal your example and modify it: "il y en a beaucoup(,) des belles filles, ici !" sounds acceptable.
Doesn't it?
update: comma needed after beaucoup??


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## moe0204

pitchou said:


> Makes me think of something, if I may steal your example and modify it: "il y en a beaucoup(,) des belles filles, ici !" sounds acceptable.
> Doesn't it?
> update: comma needed after beaucoup??



Correct (but better with _de_)...
And better with a comma


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## pitchou

Could you give an example that doesn't sound weird? Because I always have the impression something's wrong...


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## titi82

OK, I would say that in spoken, very informal french, you could say, entering a bar for example: il y en a de la femme ici! But speaking about someones daughters, you would say "Il a des belles filles". Don't know if it helps...


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## titi82

I might be on to something, feedback please if you don't agree.

de belles filles: is like you are considering the women as one entity.
des belles filles: you are regrouping them as one, but they stay "seperate"


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## moe0204

pitchou said:


> Could you give an example that doesn't sound weird? Because I always have the impression something's wrong...


In fact, you're right pitchou  Sorry 
I found a grammatical rule : we have to use _de_ when there is an adjective between _des _and the noun.
_Des filles. _---> _De jolies filles.

_


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## pitchou

well, I guess we're just used to hearing it in a formal context then but that it is grammatically incorrect (as are so many things...)

And I would agree with titi to say that the possible "des belles filles" would imply that the speaker knows them personally or at least that he has some specific pretty girls in mind and he refers to them more or less individually (although grouping them with a plural)... don't know if it's really clear


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## gliamo

moe0204 said:


> In fact, you're right pitchou  Sorry
> I found a grammatical rule : we have to use _de_ when there is an adjective between _des _and the noun.
> _Des filles. _---> _De jolies filles.
> _


On the one hand, _des jolies filles_ doesn't sound right to me, but on the other hand, _des petites filles_ does!


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## ascoltate

moe0204 said:


> In fact, you're right pitchou  Sorry
> I found a grammatical rule : we have to use _de_ when there is an adjective between _des _and the noun.
> _Des filles. _---> _De jolies filles.
> 
> _



Yes, this is the text book rule, plain and simple. Always use "de" in these contexts. But in speaking, you'll rarely hear "de"--it's usually "des"-- so it's a question of written versus spoken style as opposed to different contexts.


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## moe0204

ascoltate said:


> Yes, this is the text book rule, plain and simple. Always use "de" in these contexts. But in speaking, you'll rarely hear "de"--it's usually "des"-- so it's a question of written versus spoken style as opposed to different contexts.


I don't totally agree...
Even in speaking, _de_, in this case, is more often use.


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## DearPrudence

ascoltate said:


> Yes, this is the text book rule, plain and simple. Always use "de" in these contexts. But in speaking, you'll rarely hear "de"--it's usually "des"-- so it's a question of written versus spoken style as opposed to different contexts.


I agree with ascoltate. Actually I had found it in a grammar book as I've indicated in this thread.





gliamo said:


> On the one hand, _des jolies filles_ doesn't sound right to me, but on the other hand, _des petites filles_ does!


 Maybe it's because "petites filles" is considered as a whole, like "petits pois"  (je veux dire, ça ne veut pas dire qu'elles sont petites vraiment, mais surtout qu'elles sont jeunes. Peut-être que dans une autre langue, cela correspondrait à un seul mot, l'adjectif "petit" n'est pas ajouté en contexte mais l'expression "petite fille" existe déjà ...)


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## jamie96

I found that there seem to be different rules, e.g.
'Nous avons discute des *differentes* choses,  but I also read about the existing grammatical rules where it says 'Il y a *beaucoup de* belles  or jolies filles (i.e. quantity: beaucoup de). I am now totally confused. Perhaps there is a difference when the sentence begins with 'des belles filles se promenent .....' or something like that. Jamie 96


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## Kolan

DearPrudence said:


> Maybe it's because "petites filles" is considered as a whole, like "petits pois"  (je veux dire, ça ne veut pas dire qu'elles sont petites vraiment, mais surtout qu'elles sont jeunes. Peut-être que dans une autre langue, cela correspondrait à un seul mot, l'adjectif "petit" n'est pas ajouté en contexte mais l'expression "petite fille" existe déjà ...)


On parle *des petites-filles* (_les filles d'un fils ou d'une fille_) de quelqu'un ou, bien, *de petites filles* si elles sont juste petites (_fillettes_), n'est vrai?


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## DearPrudence

jamie96 said:


> I found that there seem to be different rules, e.g.
> 'Nous avons discuté des *différentes* choses


Hmm, as such, it isn't really possible ...



jamie96 said:


> 'Il y a *beaucoup de* belles  or jolies filles (i.e. quantity: beaucoup de).


For 
*"a lot of Ø / few Ø + noun"
"beaucoup/peu de + nom"


a lot of Ø rain: beaucoup de pluie
a lot of Ø girls: beaucoup de filles
a lot of Ø pretty girls: beaucoup de jolies filles* 


Kolan said:


> On parle *des petites-filles* (_les filles d'un fils ou d'une fille_) de quelqu'un ou, bien, *de petites filles* si elles sont juste petites (_fillettes_), n'est vrai?


I agree for the first part only.
But if you say:
*"J'ai vu de petites filles"* it means that they were short, as opposed to tall:
*"J'ai vu de petites filles, de grands garçons, ..."
*but that doesn't sound great I must say. I suppose we would rather say things like:*
"J'ai vu des filles qui n'étaient pas très grandes ..."
*
But to mean "(young) girls" (*fillettes *indeed), you will use "des":
*"J'ai vu des petites filles qui jouaient à la corde à sauter : elles avaient l'air de bien s'amuser"*

But I'll add again that apart from that "exception",
"des + [adjective + noun]" is supposed to be grammatically incorrect though in spoken language, you may hear it.


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