# Norwegian: -a (noun suffix)



## mezzoforte

<Moderator note: New topic - new thread, split from Norwegian: 'to see someone as he truly is'>

(BTW, do you know which neuter nouns take obligatory "a" ending in definite plural, e.g. "barn".)


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## vestfoldlilja

mezzoforte said:


> (BTW, do you know which neuter nouns take obligatory "a" ending in definite plural, e.g. "barn".)



I think it might only be barna actually that ends with an _a,_ but I could be mistaken.


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## Cerb

vestfoldlilja said:


> I think it might only be barna actually that ends with an _a,_ but I could be mistaken.


In nynorsk, definite plural neuter ends with "-a" as a rule and sometimes "-i" as well depending on the dialect of the speaker. As far as I can gather the "-a" ending is actually an accepted side form of definite plural neuter even in Bokmål now. It's not common to all dialects that use bokmål, but I have to admit I find myself using it as well at times.  It's probably better to just stick with what you're used to while learning however  It might even have mostly to do with preference.

Some dialects and "posh" sociolects (in lack of a better word) treat feminine nouns as masculine avoiding the "-a" ending. Using a lot of "-a" endings, especially for plural definite neuter, will put you at the other side of the table to many people's ears unless it's native to your dialect. Another peculiar phenomena native to at least Oslo is mixing masculine and feminine giving "ei elv, elver, elve*n*, elvene" for instance. Wiki has a slightly different take on it, but I'm not sure I agree with their analysis.


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## mezzoforte

You confused me with the last sentence.  In particular, what is "elven"?


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## vestfoldlilja

Cerb said:


> In nynorsk, definite plural neuter ends with "-a" as a rule and sometimes "-i" as well depending on the dialect of the speaker. As far as I can gather the "-a" ending is actually an accepted side form of definite plural neuter even in Bokmål now. It's not common to all dialects that use bokmål, but I have to admit I find myself using it as well at times.  It's probably better to just stick with what you're used to while learning however  It might even have mostly to do with preference.
> 
> Some dialects and "posh" sociolects (in lack of a better word) treat feminine nouns as masculine avoiding the "-a" ending. Using a lot of "-a" endings, especially for plural definite neuter, will put you at the other side of the table to many people's ears unless it's native to your dialect. Another peculiar phenomena native to at least Oslo is mixing masculine and feminine giving "ei elv, elver, elve*n*, elvene" for instance. Wiki has a slightly different take on it, but I'm not sure I agree with their analysis.



This is true, I should have thought of that earlier, especially since I myself usually end everything I can with an a, not just definite neuter plural like:
tak – taka (ceiling – the ceilings or roofs – the roofs)

loft – lofta (attic – the attics)

but also traditionally masculine words as bok – boka (book – the book) 

and skje – skjea (spoon – the spoon).

In my dialect it is common for many traditionally masculine words to change to feminine, but also for feminine words to change to masculine, and even to mix them up! I would usually say en jente – jenta as opposed to (feminine) ei jente – jenta, or (masculine) en jente – jenten.

Some points to remember might be that words ending with ene (in bokmål) can end with just an a, but also ane for many masculine words such as gutt – guttene/guttane, støvel – støvlene/støvlane.  These things depend on the dialect of the speaker as well as preference.  

Ah, language is a confusing thing!


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## vestfoldlilja

mezzoforte said:


> You confused me with the last sentence.  In particular, what is "elven"?



Elven means the river. 

It should be either en elv, elver, elven, elvene 
Or

ei elv, elver, elva, elvene, 

but in some dialects people mix feminine with masculine (or the other way around as well, I suppose), 

so you get ei elv, elver, elven, elvene.


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## SweetCherry

Thanks again, vestfoldlilja! 


vestfoldlilja said:


> I think it might only be barna actually that ends with an _a,_ but I could be mistaken.


 
What about _klærna_?


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## basslop

SweetCherry said:


> Thanks again, vestfoldlilja!
> 
> 
> What about _klærna_?



No, *klærna *is not valid in written Norwegian, but it may occur in some dialect - in Western Norway I think. Besides the word *klær/klærne* do not have singular form. If you want to express clothes in singular, use *et klesplagg - klesplagget, klesplagg - klesplaggene*. One may even drop *kles* and just use *plagg*.


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## SweetCherry

basslop said:


> No, *klærna *is not valid in written Norwegian, but it may occur in some dialect - in Western Norway I think. Besides the word *klær/klærne* do not have singular form. If you want to express clothes in singular, use *et klesplagg - klesplagget, klesplagg - klesplaggene*. One may even drop *kles* and just use *plagg*.


 
I live in Eastern Norway, and everyone says _klærna _here.

The thing that people are allowed *to write* the dialect is putting Norwegian language in danger. One can speak whichever dialect they want, but if they write it too, gradually, they forget what is gramatically correct.
It happend to many times that my Norwegian teachers in school weren't sure if what they wrote was gramatically correct, or it was just the dialect they spoke. 
Someone told me recently: I am afraid that the only place you will be able to read proper Norwegian at in the near future will be Donald Duck magazine.

It is good that there are still people out there who can answer the questions about what is gramatically correct.  Thank you.


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## Cerb

The singular form of "klær" is "klede", but it probably makes more sense to say that "klær" is derived from "klede" rather than calling "klede" a proper singular. "Klede" can mean a piece of cloth or a type of wool fabric, but isn't used in the meaning of a garment. I can think of dialects that don't have "æ" in definite plural ("klea"), and "klæra" also works for me, but "klærna" just doesn't fit with any dialect I've heard. My guess is that "klærne" has been mixed up with one of those forms to make "klærna". Aside from Nynorsk, "klærne" is still the only correct written form however.


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## vestfoldlilja

SweetCherry said:


> The thing that people are allowed *to write* the dialect is putting Norwegian language in danger. One can speak whichever dialect they want, but if they write it too, gradually, they forget what is gramatically correct.
> It happend to many times that my Norwegian teachers in school weren't sure if what they wrote was gramatically correct, or it was just the dialect they spoke.



This is me in a nutshell! I think it has only gotten worse since I finished school as well, less reason to worry about grammar when no one is correcting you. Also a text can seem very foreign and stilled if I have to use the correct and proper grammar all the time, especially if I have to use a lot of words, or just endings really, I would never dream of using when speaking. 



Cerb said:


> but "klærna" just doesn't fit with any dialect I've heard.



I know _klærna_ is very much used in my own vestfold dialect, and I’m sure it can be heard in other dialects around the Oslo fjord at least.


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## SweetCherry

vestfoldlilja said:


> I know _klærna_ is very much used in my own vestfold dialect, and I’m sure it can be heard in other dialects around the Oslo fjord at least.


 
I have now tested my husband. 
- How would you say "the clothes"?
- Klærna.
- W-what is that sound in the end, is it an A or an E?
- *Æ*. 

- Do you write it with an A or an E?
- E. 

---



Soooo. I apologise. They say klærnA, they mean klærnÆ, and they write klærnE... Or was it the other way around... 
No, seriously, the dialects are going to drive me crazy.


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## mezzoforte

It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between those "semi-vowels".... like in English: "roses", "Rosa's".


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## Grefsen

I'm not sure if anyone has officially welcomed you to the forum yet so...

*Velkommen til nordisk språkforumet **mezzoforte!  *

*Tusen takk* for making such a positive contribution with this really informative thread.  I completely missed seeing it before because I had been extremely busy with work and then was off on vacation for a week. 



mezzoforte said:


> It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between those "semi-vowels".... like in English: "roses", "Rosa's".


Another one of the many challenges of learning Norwegian. 

BTW - this is a great example you have provided.  I'm going to quiz some of my English as a second or third language friends on this one.


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## mezzoforte

Thank you Grefsen 

Since I started learning Norwegian, I've had on my desk this list, with groups of vowels that sounded the same to me.... most of it is short vowels...


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## mezzoforte

Grefsen said:


> BTW - this is a great example you have provided.  I'm going to quiz some of my English as a second or third language friends on this one.



I love that example!  It's the difference between a "schwi" and a "schwa"!!!  (But I think that the distinction is based on dialect.  N.B. I've learned all this from browsing Wikipedia.)


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