# Urdu, Hindi, Punjabi: bastii vasdii - V->B shifts



## marrish

In another thread when we were discussing a vegetable, hindiurdu wrote:



> UM is right in that the correct pronunciation is 'arvii' but v/w → b is common in colloquial HU. There are many examples of this, eg vyaapaari → byopari, vinti → binti. Incidentally, there are many examples where Punjabi preserves the original 'v' even in rustic speech whereas HU turns then to 'b'. vasna (P) ↔ basna (HU), vela (P) ↔ bela (HU). In Punjabi, "towns get settled' would be "vastiyaan vas paindiyaan" whereas in HU it would be "bastiyaan bas jaati hain".



Why this shouldn't serve as a pretext for discussing what is described above. 

As the first person to start the discussion I'd like to deal with the last sentence: 

Punjabi: vastiyaaN vas paiNdiyaaN
Hindi/Urdu: bastiyaaN bas jaatii haiN

Which is the correct form for Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi? May I ask in what kind of Punjabi is this word _vastii_? I'm not familiar with it.


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## Alfaaz

> Punjabi: vastiyaaN vas paiNdiyaaN
> May I ask in what kind of Punjabi is this word _vastii_?


I had thought of the same thing when reading hindiurdu's post! However, it then occurred to me that many words which are pronounced with a b in Urdu are pronounced by some people with a v (as the Sanskrit original) in Hindi and Punjabi (especially in Indian Punjab).


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## marrish

Do you think that _vastii_ would be the original? So I'm assuming this word is pronounced in Hindi and Indian Punjabi as such?


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## Alfaaz

> Do you think that _vastii_ would be the original?


That's a good question! I am not sure, the dictionaries stated bastii comes from the Sanskrit vast. OUD and Platts. 



> So I'm assuming this word is pronounced in Hindi and Indian Punjabi as such?


Not necessarily. I have heard both from Indian Punjabi speakers, which makes it confusing. Even in Pakistani Punjabi, I (think) I might have heard both vas and bas, as in _"tera kar vasda/basda rawwe"_. In Urdu, however, I don't think I have ever heard vas/vasti.


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## marrish

Interesting. Have you heard vastii from Indian Punjabi speakers? Have you heard it from Western Punjabi speakers, too?


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## marrish

hindiurdu, 



> vela (P) ↔ bela (HU)




Could you please clarify what this pair of words means? Would _bela_ mean the flower or something else?


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## Alfaaz

Yes, vasti/basti; vesakhi/besakhi; vasant/basant; veLi/beli; etc. At first I thought the people using such were either speaking really _theth Punjabi _or maybe not _as educated as others_...but now it seems (after seeing the dictionary entries) that they could also be correct. I recently (and shockingly) heard on TV, kavaab for kabaab....!
I'm guessing Punjabi is (as probably QP once described) a "relaxed language" and both v and b can work in certain cases, depending on dialect and location...?


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## Qureshpor

I have not come across "vastii" in Punjabi. Neither am I aware of Urdu using "belaa" for Punjabi "velaa" (time). Furthermore, "belii" as in "Allah belii" is never velii for me.


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Yes, vasti/basti; vesakhi/besakhi; vasant/basant; veLi/beli; etc. At first I thought the people using such were either speaking really _theth Punjabi _or maybe not _as educated as others_...but now it seems (after seeing the dictionary entries) that they could also be correct. I recently (and shockingly) heard on TV, kavaab for kabaab....!
> I'm guessing Punjabi is (as probably QP once described) a "relaxed language" and both v and b can work in certain cases, depending on dialect and location...?



Yes, what I'm enquiring is *vastii vs. bastii*; all other examples, informative indeed, are not relevant (let's see), I believe.

Have the people whom you referred to as ''not educated as others'' - been the less or worse educated than others or ''well or better educated'' than others? Maybe that is why they speak correctly?


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> .....
> 
> As the first person to start the discussion I'd like to deal with the last sentence:
> 
> Punjabi: vastiyaaN vas paiNdiyaaN
> Hindi/Urdu: bastiyaaN bas jaatii haiN
> 
> Which is the correct form for Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi? May I ask in what kind of Punjabi is this word _vastii_? I'm not familiar with it.


 In Urdu it is always _*bastii*_ as it is in the Colloquial Hindi speech I've heard. The only time we use _*vastii*_ is as an echo word! So we do say _*bastii-vastii *_: _woh apnii bastii chalaa gayaa ho gaa _--> _woh apnii bastii-vastii chalaa gayaa ho gaa --- _but *bastii* is the primary word!


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Which is the correct form for Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi? May I ask in what kind of Punjabi is this word _vastii_? I'm not familiar with it.



I think hindiurdu had given the answer in his post itself, so I find this thread to be kind of redundant. He had already said, in Hindi/Urdu, it is "bastii". By the way, since marrish also seems to be interested in Gujarati from another thread, in Gujarati it is "vastii".


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## hindiurdu

I had ducked out of all this but couldn't resist checking the thread anyway (weak-willed maybe). I am a bit surprised at the comments here. Really? People have never heard 'vastiyaan' in Punjabi? In my experience, this word is actually *more* common from Pakistani Punjabis or West Punjabi origin Indians. An example was super-easy to find - "Tahira Syed Live - Jhanjhar Phabdi Na Mutyar Bina - Punjabi Folk Song" look for it on YouTube - almost the exact phrase shows up - 'jhanjhar phabdi na mutiyar bina, dil dhadke na chhankaar bina .... vastiyan vas paindiyaan, dil ujde te mud naiyon vasda.' Nice song and Tahira's voice is honey anyway, give it a listen.

On 'bela' this is used only poetically in HU now - e.g. 'aayi milan ki bela'. Just search 'milan ki bela' on YT, lots of videos show up. In Punjabi, 'vela' is super-common. 'Jis vele main othe gaya si'. With fast-speech this becomes 'jis-le main othey gaya si' and then 'jille main othe gaya si'.


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## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> I had ducked out of all this but couldn't resist checking the thread anyway (weak-willed maybe). I am a bit surprised at the comments here. Really? *People have never heard 'vastiyaan' in Punjabi? In my experience, this word is actually *more* common from Pakistani Punjabis or West Punjabi origin Indians. *An example was super-easy to find - "Tahira Syed Live - Jhanjhar Phabdi Na Mutyar Bina - Punjabi Folk Song" look for it on YouTube - almost the exact phrase shows up - 'jhanjhar phabdi na mutiyar bina, dil dhadke na chhankaar bina .... vastiyan vas paindiyaan, dil ujde te mud naiyon vasda.' Nice song and Tahira's voice is honey anyway, give it a listen.
> 
> *On 'bela' this is used only poetically in HU now - *e.g. 'aayi milan ki bela'. Just search 'milan ki bela' on YT, lots of videos show up. *In Punjabi, 'vela' is super-common.* 'Jis vele main othe gaya si'. With fast-speech this becomes 'jis-le main othey gaya si' and then 'jille main othe gaya si'.



Your contribution is appreciated - the experience of each of us can lead to some observations and this way we can have a meaningful exchange. 

Possibly is this word poetical but if so I would be grateful to see it used so in poetry. So according to the above, the meaning of *belaa* which I requested you to specify, is 'time, while'? Agreed as to the Punjabi usage!


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> I think hindiurdu had given the answer in his post itself, so I find this thread to be kind of redundant. He had already said, in Hindi/Urdu, it is "bastii". By the way, since marrish also seems to be interested in Gujarati from another thread, in Gujarati it is "vastii".


_OFF TOPIC: OP has it about correct__↔colloquial. No need to reiterate what has already been pasted in the OP because that is really redundant. Thank you for Gujarati but it is outside the scope of this thread. As long as even solely myself is going to learn anything from this thread, I don't think it is redundant._

Could you please contribute to the thread and say whether you have come across Hindi speakers saying *'vastii'*?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Could you please contribute to the thread and say whether you have come across Hindi speakers saying *'vastii'*?



Yes, occasionally. The more common pronunciation is of course "bastii".


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## hindiurdu

"ruk ja raat, theher ja re chanda, beete na milan ki bela" was a bollywood song. Sure to be on YT. There are many other v in punjabi vs b in HU examples. Vyah vs byah. Vich vs beech. Vichhoda vs bichhoda (separation). Vadda vs bada (big). Vagna vs bhagna, eg vagda dariya. You get some of this in Kashmiri too. Vangun vs baingan (eggplant). Offtopic, but there's also a strange v vs d example. Vekho vs dekho. In Kashmiri, vuchiv is the word.


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## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> "ruk ja raat, theher ja re chanda, beete na milan ki bela" was a bollywood song. Sure to be on YT. There are many other v in punjabi vs b in HU examples. Vyah vs byah. Vich vs beech. Vichhoda vs bichhoda (separation). Vadda vs bada (big). Vagna vs bhagna, eg vagda dariya. You get some of this in Kashmiri too. Vangun vs baingan (eggplant). Offtopic, but there's also a strange v vs d example. Vekho vs dekho. In Kashmiri, vuchiv is the word.


Leaving aside the transcription/pronunciation, such pairs may be formed. Good to know the word _belaa _for Hindi and thanks for the reference. I can say it is not Urdu but I'd be delighted to know otherwise because I like this word quite much!



> "Tahira Syed Live - Jhanjhar Phabdi Na Mutyar Bina - Punjabi Folk Song" look for it on YouTube - almost the exact phrase shows up - 'jhanjhar phabdi na mutiyar bina, dil dhadke na chhankaar bina .... vastiyan vas paindiyaan, dil ujde te mud naiyon vasda.' Nice song and Tahira's voice is honey anyway, give it a listen.



Point taken but there is something strange about it, in several other versions she sings _vastiyaaN *b*as paiNdiiyaaN_. An example of an opposite process? Or was she put off her stroke by _vastiyaaN_?


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## marrish

As far as Western Punjabi is concerned the word is _bastii_. I don't know about Indians with West-Punjabi background. It must have been around since long, surely by the end of the 17th century, as Bullhe Shah says:

_جہڑی بستی اے اوہو وَسدا jé_hRii *b*astii ai oho *v*assdaa ai._


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## hindiurdu

Basti is more prevalent in Punjabi than Vasti - actually I have never heard vasti, though I have heard vastiyaan - no idea why this is. The point is that the word vastiyaan doesn't even exist in HU whereas it exists in Punjabi. There are other terms like this also - rain vasera vs rain basera. Both exist in Punjabi but rain basera is more common. However, vasna and vasda is more common than basda. 'Mera vasda rave Punjab' sounds right and 'mera basda rave Punjab' sounds wrong or somehow poorer style. Afaik this is true of most Punjabi dialects (I am most familiar with Potohari due to family background - though Hindko and Majhi alike make sense to me - I have a tougher time with Multani, Ludhiyanvi, Hoshiyarpuri and such).


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## Qureshpor

I have not yet had the opportunity to listen to the Tahira Sayyid song. Hopefully, after a couple of days I shall be in my usual "seat" from where I hope to respond to posts in this thread as well as those in other on going threads.


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## hindiurdu

***** This is offtopic a bit, but related. If not, tell me and I will delete this post or start a separate thread if warranted *****

To confess something here, I am intrigued by the idea that this could be a Dardic holdout. As you may know, it is speculated that once upon a time Dardic languages were spoken in a larger area and slowly displaced by main-branch Indo-Aryan. There is speculation that some elements of that may survive in languages like Punjabi and Kumaoni (hills of Uttarakhand). HU has a powerful v → b flow. Vanaspati → Banaspati/Banaaspati (restored to Vanaspati by the Sanskritization movement in Standard Hindi, not so in Urdu). There is also an s → h move overall (dramatically faster in Iranian languages). Kashmiri and Dardic in general have partially resisted these trends due to their relative isolation. In some cases, Classical Sanskrit itself betrays greater 'vulgarization' (and resemblance to Persian languages) than Kashmiri does. Could this be a case where Punjabi has preserved 'v' where Hindi-Urdu has lost it due to some Dardic tendencies? Just a thought. I wonder if there are any words that are 'b' in Sanskrit but 'v' in Punjabi. Stuff like Vekho/Vuchiv is what triggers thoughts like this btw.


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## panjabigator

I've learned never to put my foot down in Punjabi, as you'll find people that argue it both ways. I've only heard "basti" in Punjabi, but "vasti" wouldn't surprise me. I also say "oh de vaare" for "oh de baare" quite often, but say "biir" for brother too. "Duniya 'ch loki vasde bathere" is also what'd I'd say. 

Judging on the progression of this thread, might we want to rename this thread to Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu and V-->B shifts?


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## marrish

panjabigator said:


> I've learned never to put my foot down in Punjabi, as you'll find people that argue it both ways. I've only heard "basti" in Punjabi, but "vasti" wouldn't surprise me. I also say "oh de vaare" for "oh de baare" quite often, but say "biir" for brother too. "Duniya 'ch loki vasde bathere" is also what'd I'd say.
> 
> Judging on the progression of this thread, might we want to rename this thread to Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu and V-->B shifts?



I agree fully with your comments, Punjabigator SaaHib, and I like the idea to rename the thread. What about bastii being retained? Say, like ''bastii vasdii - V->B shifts"?


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> I have not yet had the opportunity to listen to the Tahira Sayyid song. Hopefully, after a couple of days I shall be in my usual "seat" from where I hope to respond to posts in this thread as well as those in other on going threads.



Yes, Tahira Sayyid does sing "vastiyaaN vass paiNdiyaaN, dil ujRe te muR na'iyoN vasdaa". This pronunciation is new to me although sufficient number of examples of this word can be found on the net in Shahmukhi. I have even found an example where the verbal "vasdii" is written as "vastii".

aap na vastii, vannje sauhre te lokiiN mattaaN de'e

(aap to bastii nahiiN, jaatii hai susraal/sasuraal aur logoN ko nasiiHat kartii hai!)


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> I've learned never to put my foot down in Punjabi, as you'll find people that argue it both ways. I've only heard "basti" in Punjabi, but "vasti" wouldn't surprise me. I also say "oh de vaare" for "oh de baare" quite often, but say "biir" for brother too. "Duniya 'ch loki vasde bathere" is also what'd I'd say.
> 
> Judging on the progression of this thread, might we want to rename this thread to Punjabi/Hindi/Urdu and V-->B shifts?



Interesting PG Jii. I would n't say "ode vaare" for "ode baare" (About him/her). And I would say "viir"!


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## Qureshpor

hindiurdu said:


> On 'bela' this is used only poetically in HU now - e.g. 'aayi milan ki bela'. Just search 'milan ki bela' on YT, lots of videos show up. In Punjabi, 'vela' is super-common. 'Jis vele main othe gaya si'. With fast-speech this becomes 'jis-le main othey gaya si' and then 'jille main othe gaya si'.



One point to note here I suppose is that in Hindi "belaa" is feminine whereas in Punjabi "velaa" is masculine.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Yes, Tahira Sayyid does sing "vastiyaaN vass paiNdiyaaN, dil ujRe te muR na'iyoN vasdaa". This pronunciation is new to me although sufficient number of examples of this word can be found on the net in Shahmukhi. I have even found an example where the verbal "vasdii" is written as "vastii".
> 
> aap na vastii, vannje sauhre te lokiiN mattaaN de'e
> 
> (aap to bastii nahiiN, jaatii hai susraal/sasuraal aur logoN ko nasiiHat kartii hai!)


But in another instance, she sings vastiyaaN bas paiNdiyaaN!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> But in another instance, she sings vastiyaaN bas paiNdiyaaN!



Does she go on to say "basdaa" or "vasdaa"?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Does she go on to say "basdaa" or "vasdaa"?



She says _*v*asdaa_ further. 

_YT JHANJHAR PHABDI NA - TAHIRA SYED_


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> She says _*v*asdaa_ further.
> 
> _YT JHANJHAR PHABDI NA - TAHIRA SYED_



In this case, she had a "*bus*" on her mind because her car had broken down!


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## marrish

Probably the *bus* was coming from a _bastii_.


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## panjabigator

Returning to the topic at hand, can we agree, then, that some _ilāqe _say "v" and others say "b?" Has everyone heard "oh de bich" before?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Returning to the topic at hand, can we agree, then, that some _ilāqe _say "v" and others say "b?" Has everyone heard "oh de bich" before?



I would say "oh de vich" because I am a gentleman. If I used your pronunciation I am likely to receive a slap from an English speaking Punjabi lady who has interpreted this as "oh de --tch"! (Give me that, --tch!)


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## marrish

panjabigator said:


> Returning to the topic at hand, can we agree, then, that some _ilāqe _say "v" and others say "b?" Has everyone heard "oh de bich" before?


Yes I have, from a couple of East Punjabi speakers and I was a good bit amused when I heard the phrase in question. Those people seemed to confuse ''b'' with ''v'' and if my memory serves me rightly some words where b would be expected, they used v as well as the opposite.


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## panjabigator

I'd say, though, that it's not that they're "confused," but that there is a fluidity within the dialect. Indian Punjabis are taught to write "v" and "b" _correctly_, though pronunciations might differ. I've never seen "bichch" (is this how we're depicting the tashdeed?) written too much, but I hear it plenty.


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## hindiurdu

I've only heard 'bich' from people with affiliations to Hoshiarpur. It's not correct Majhi (or Malwi even?). It feels like a very localized dialect. I wonder how they would say vichkaar/vishkaar. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'bichkaar'. Also, I wonder if any Punjabis say 'vajaae' instead of 'bajaae' (instead of). 'Ik de vajaae do'. Hmmmm. I'm trying to imagine it but am not sure I've ever heard it. This would be interesting because it clearly be a b -> v shift rather than v retention where HU shifted.


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## Qureshpor

hindiurdu said:


> I've only heard 'bich' from people with affiliations to Hoshiarpur. It's not correct Majhi (or Malwi even?). It feels like a very localized dialect. I wonder how they would say vichkaar/vishkaar. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'bichkaar'. Also, I wonder if any Punjabis say 'vajaae' instead of 'bajaae' (instead of). 'Ik de vajaae do'. Hmmmm. I'm trying to imagine it but am not sure I've ever heard it. This would be interesting because it clearly be a b -> v shift rather than v retention where HU shifted.



For me it is "vishkaar" and "bajaa'e".


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## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> I've only heard 'bich' from people with affiliations to Hoshiarpur. It's not correct Majhi (or Malwi even?). It feels like a very localized dialect. I wonder how they would say vichkaar/vishkaar. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'bichkaar'. Also, I wonder if any Punjabis say 'vajaae' instead of 'bajaae' (instead of). *'Ik de vajaae do'.* Hmmmm. I'm trying to imagine it but am not sure I've ever heard it. This would be interesting because it clearly be a b -> v shift rather than v retention where HU shifted.


For me it ought to be _ikk dii thaaN do/ikk thaa'iiN do. _Also if this sentence would have ''b'' instead of this presumed ''v'' it would not be correct, unless you'd intended to say ''Give me one instead of two''.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> For me it ought to be _ikk dii thaaN do/ikk thaa'iiN do. _Also if this sentence would have ''b'' instead of this presumed ''v'' it would not be correct, unless you'd intended to say ''Give me one instead of two''.



Yes, I would also say "ik dii thaaN do" too. Reference "de bajaa'e" or "dii bajaa'e", my understanding is that this is a Punjabi direct transferral of the Urdu "ke bajaa'e" and "kii bajaa'e". I personally regard "kii bajaa'e" more correct but both forms are used.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Yes, I would also say "ik dii thaaN do" too. Reference "de bajaa'e" or "dii bajaa'e", my understanding is that this is a Punjabi direct transferral of the Urdu "ke bajaa'e" and "kii bajaa'e". I personally regard "kii bajaa'e" more correct but both forms are used.


Thank you for the clarification.


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