# FR: Negation (pas, rien, plus, personne, etc.) without "ne" in colloquial speech



## Mimi2005

Sometimes I hear french speakers (in a sentence with a negation) use only the last part of the negation. For example: `moi j´ai rien dit` instead of `moi je n´ai rien dit`.
It is not that I´m not listening closely, some people just don´t say it. I must say, it is not really often that I hear it.
Is this slang, or just plain wrong ?

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## Outsider

It's an increasingly popular way of speaking, but still regarded as colloquial.


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## breevdk

hello, I am french and well, unfortunately we do like to eat words (like you) and often we say "_moi j'ai rien dit_". It is not grammatically correct but you will hear it a lot.

similar to your "_me neither_ !"


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## samcluk

I know the 'ne' is often omitted in spoken french.

But must it always be there in written french? Even in a familiar letter to a good friend?


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## JD-Styles

In a familiar letter it's not really necessary. Just like in a familiar letter in English you might write "gonna" instead of "going to" just because it's more akin to how you'd say it.


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## Maître Capello

I disagree. Why be lazy? Just use it whenever you write. Nobody would blame you for using it whereas you could be blamed for *not* using it…


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## samcluk

Well my homework is to write an informal letter (we are practising different registers of french) so I was wondering if omitting the 'ne' would make it informal or just wrong?

If I was writing a real letter I'd probably just put it in but I'm looking for informal stuff!


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## Maître Capello

You need to write an informal letter, but it is a letter still. In my opinion it is acceptable to omit the _ne_ only in speech…


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## Tower of Babel

Hello Everyone,

In colloquial French, the word "ne" is sometimes omitted in negation:"Je sais pas."
"Ils sont pas mauvais."​- Does this usage sound impolite or uneducated if used with a stranger or an authority (such as a gendarme)?
- Would the same standards of acceptability apply to both written and spoken French?
- Has the frequency of this usage been changing over time?

Thank you for any information!


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## machigma

Hello Tower of Babel!  I'm not sure to be able to give a thorough answer to your questions, but here's at least something! Sentences like "je sais pas" or "ils sont pas mauvais" are normally not used in written language - except for instance in a thriller or a novel, where some figures would speak a colloquial language, and this would then show the difference between someone who speaks "good" French and someone who doesn't. It doesn't sound very nice even in spoken language, though we might use it quite often! You could say "je sais pas" to a policeman, it will not show that you don't respect him - just that you don't speak proper French! I don't think the frequency of this usage has been changed over time.
Hope it's clear enough...


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## Hermione

Just a small thing, I personally wouldn't say "je sais pas" to a policeman, but "je NE sais pas", ça fait "meilleure impression" !


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## Tower of Babel

[…]

Now I would like to just confirm whether "ne" is also sometimes omitted at the *start* of a phrase. Could the following examples occur in colloquial speech?
"Penses-tu pas que c'est une bonne idée?" (interrogatif)
"Regarde pas!" (impératif)​In fact, can anyone think of an example where "ne" could *never* be omitted, even in informal conversation?


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## machigma

You cannot ommit _ne_ in "Ne penses-tu pas...?" (interro-negative form). You can say "Regarde pas!" (imperative), but it's very, very colloquial - no good French. You'd rather say "ne regarde pas".


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## tilt

Dropping _ne _in _Ne penses-tu pas... ? _would make no sense, since it is colloquial speech whereas keeping the subject inverted is formal speech.
But if you say it fully colloquial, you can drop _ne _without any problem: _Tu penses pas... ?_


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## machigma

"Tu pense*s* pas que...", as _penses_ here is the second person of present indicative, and not the imperative form (where you don't put the _s_ at the end, like in "pense un peu à toutes ces belles choses")


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## ascoltate

machigma said:


> You cannot ommit _ne_ in "Ne penses-tu pas...?" (interro-negative form). You can say "Regarde pas!" (imperative), but it's very, very colloquial - no good French. You'd rather say "ne regarde pas".



As I think I've said on this forum before, _multiple_ studies have shown that in spoken French, "ne" is deleted about 91% of the time in European French and 99% of the time in Québec French. So, when speaking, it is *never* inappropriate to leave it out. It is not "very, very colloquial," but rather the norm. You would sound absolutely strange if you never dropped "ne" when speaking, or maybe even if you only dropped it 1/2 the time.
That being said, it would in most cases be inappropriate to say "Ne penses-tu pas" in spoken European French anyway. It should be noted, however, that only in Europe would this be the formal form. In Québec, inversion with subject pronouns is the normal way to ask a question, so "Penses-tu pas" sounds totally natural--"est-ce que" is the formal way to ask a question in Québec.

see also:
Elsig, Martin, and Shana Poplack. 2006. "Transplanted Dialects and Language Change: Question Formation in Québec." _U.Penn. Working Papers in Linguistics_ 12.2: 77-90.


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## Tower of Babel

Hello *ascoltate*, thank you for the information. I would like to check that I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that subject inversion carries opposite connotations of formality in France versus Québec? Are my sentences below a correct reflection of what you're saying? (I've changed the "tu" to "vous" for the formal 2nd person singular to make it more realistic):

*European French*
Ne pensez-vous pas que c'est une bonne idée? (formal)
Tu ne penses pas que c'est une bonne idée? (informal)
Tu penses pas que c'est une bonne idée? (more informal)

*Québec French*
Est-ce que vous ne pensez pas que c'est une bonne idée? (formal)
Ne penses-tu pas que c'est une bonne idée? (informal)
Penses-tu pas que c'est une bonne idée? (more informal)


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## ascoltate

Yes, that is what I'm saying! 
Although two things should be noted:
1. Even the use of "tu" + "ne" sounds unlikely. The use of "ne" is _extremely_ formal -- as I said, it rarely occurs in casual speech, if at all. So, I would suggest trying all those sentences in your example with "vous" instead of "tu" to get a better idea of the social register difference.
2. Québec French also has intonation available as a way of asking questions, as European French has "est-ce que" available.


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## Maître Capello

ascoltate said:


> The use of "ne" is _extremely_ formal -- as I said, it rarely occurs in casual speech, if at all.


Your statement is much too strong! I'm using the _ne_ in regular speech maybe half of the time and it doesn't sound “_extremely _formal” as you said. In other words, I'd rather say the _ne_ is used in proper speech but dropped in everyday's colloquial speech…


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## ascoltate

You don't. You only think you do-- I challenge you to record your speech for a day and count.
I am willing to bet you don't. The study that found the _highest_ rate of "ne" retention speech in everyday speech still had it at less than 20%.
So, no, my statement is much too weak, because I'm trying to be polite to others who don't base their statement on actual data, but rather on their impressions (which, we know, are often false). To a nonnative speaker who asked me, I would tell them that it's a much greater error to pronounce "ne" 1/2 the time than to never pronounce it at all, so it's a good idea to get in the habit of leaving it out entirely in speech.
But I was afraid that might offend people who still think that the Académie can regulate people's speech successfully.


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## Maître Capello

ascoltate said:


> You don't. You only think you do-- I challenge you to record your speech for a day and count.
> I am willing to bet you don't. The study that found the _highest_ rate of "ne" retention speech in everyday speech still had it at less than 20%.



OK, let's assume I use _ne_ only 10% of the time… But that doesn't mean I sound “extremely formal” when I do use it!


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## ascoltate

No of course not!!  You are right. I should préciser:
I meant that given the informality of "tu" and the relative formality of "ne", the likelihood of their occurrence is very small, although obviously not impossible (probably next to impossible in Québec, however, where the frequency of "ne" is already at about 1%...)


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## tilt

The point is maybe to specify what _formal _means. You seem to distinguish only two levels of language, Ascoltate: formal and informal. I consider I use at least three of them.

What I call _formal _French is a speech I almost never use orally, except in very specific situations, and where _ne _is never dropped and the subject is always inverted when required. With friends and family, people I address as _tu_, I speak a _colloquial _speech and I certainly drop most of the _ne_'s and forget subject inversion. But at work, or while shopping, for example, with people I address as _vous_, I use a _common _level of language where _ne _is generally not dropped, even if the subject inversion often happens to vanish.

In other words, I wouldn't mind saying the subject inversion is "_extremely _formal", but I wouldn't say the same about not dropping _ne_.


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## ascoltate

Thanks for the précision, Tilt! It is certainly far from my intention to imply that language has only two registers. That being said, there is no register of spoken French in which "ne" is never dropped (even if it may be retained at a higher percentage). But yes, there are certainly registers of French spoken in France where inversion would never occur but "ne" retention would occur. In Québec, it would naturally be the reverse. So, I will limit the term "_extremely_ formal" to those registers where "ne" is retained 100% of the time in discourse and not, say, 50%.


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## mtmjr

Je suis certain qu'il existe des fils sur ce sujet, mais je ne pouvais pas les trouver...  Quand on parle, je sais qu'il est courant de laisser tomber le "ne" dans les phrases négatives, mais en ce qui concerne quand on écrit?  Je me trouve voulant laisser tomber surtout le "ne" quand j'écrit "ce n'est pas".  Je ne sais pas pourquoi, mais "c'est pas" me semble mieux.  Je veux le faire aussi aux phrases:

_Je sais pas._
_Je pense pas._
_Je peux pas._

Comment accepté est ce construction aux écritures?


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## arundhati

Eh non, ce n'est pas correct. "Ne" est obligatoire dans ces exemples.


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## Moon Palace

Omitting 'ne' in a sentence is very commonplace in casual conversations, but when you write, you need to add 'ne'. (except if you are writing a dialogue and wish to emphasize the poor command of grammar on the part of the locutor).


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## JeanDeSponde

_Je sais pas_ ? It ain't no correct...


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## Outsider

Plutôt _I dunno_.


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## mtmjr

But people would say these in casual conversation, right?


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## JeanDeSponde

Absolutely. It would not be taken as "poor" or "ill-educated"; exactly as Outsider's _dunno._


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## L'Inconnu

Anyway, getting back to writing an informal letter, if we want to represent a colloquial speech pattern, we could write “’J’sais pas”.  But, then again, I suppose we could also ask would “I dunno” look write in an English letter?


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## Lizoo

I agree with Maître Capello that the use of _ne_ is not extremely formal, at least in France. It is also true, though, that more and more French politicians, including the current president, drop the _ne_ when giving speeches. This may be due to a desire to avoid appearing aloof and to be seen to be closer to ordinary people.


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## t_liv

Even though I am absolutely sure that someone has already asked this question, I can't find it by searching the forums!

I know that dropping the "ne" is less "formal" than including it, but when I studied in France, I got the impression that hardly anyone ever used "ne" when they spoke. My French university friends told me that "ne" is never used in spoken French except when reading aloud from a book. Eventually I stopped using it altogether.

My question: Should I ever use "ne" when speaking? And to who? Professors? People that I vouvoyer? Vendeurs? My boss? Police officers? 

If anyone can help me or direct me to a previous thread which discusses this, I'd be much obliged. 

Merci beaucoup,
t_liv


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## Welshie

Welllllll, whenever you want to be formal. Under what circumstances would you say "is going to" instead of "is gonna" in English? Under what circumstances would you say "do not" instead of "don't"? I wouldn't say "ne" is never used in conversation, but it entirely depends on the context.


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## Fred_C

Yes,
Besides, I would add that if you want to sound formal, you do not always say "ne", you just increase the frequency.
I do not think that there exists anyone that absolutely never drops a "ne".


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## felicia

How would (could) you then say " J' (ne) c'est pas"??  Would the meaning come through without "ne"?  Learnt French many many years ago!! and have forgotten a GREAT DEAL.


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## Katoussa

Yes of course, the 'negation meaning' is still understood since 'pas' is still in the sentence. 'ne' is so unaccented in French, that it just disappears.

We would pronounce 'je ne sais pas' like
- je sais pas
- j'sais pas
and even - chais pas



Katoussa.


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## HistofEng

Relatedly...Is it normal to pronounce 'je ne sais pas' as 

Je n'sais pas

For some reason I do this a lot instead of dropping the 'ne' all together (meaning I tend to just pronounce the 'n')


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## Punky Zoé

Yes, I do agree and I would say I make it more fréquently than dropping the "ne".
Probably, a question of regional accent, and the way we do pronounce all syllables around here.

Moreover, I would say than in work related context, I generally pronounce the "ne". It is only with relatives that I pronounce sometimes "je sais pas", "ch'ais pas" or "je n'sais pas".


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## Ezysqezylemnpezy

Salut tout le monde!

I just have a quick grammar question.

Est-ce qu'on dit "Il y a rien a faire" ou "Il n'y a rien a faire?"

I was confused with the double negative.

Merci beaucoup à l'avance!


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## wildan1

_il *n'*y a *rien* à faire is correct. Il y a rien à faire_ is a colloquial (oral) way of saying the same thing, where the _" ne "_ gets dropped.

This is not really a double negative, since French negatives usually are a "sandwich" around the verb: _ne...pas; ne... rien; ne... jamais, etc._

A double negative here would be _il *n*'y a *pas rien* à faire_, meaning _There IS something that can be done._


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## Bobby Lamarck

Always "Ne" or "N' " with "Rien" or "jamais" etc...


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## Tim~!

... in standard French.  They're often dropped when spoken, however.  Unlike in English, there's no notion that the person breaking the formal rules is "wrong" or an idiot, so you'll hear it a lot.


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## wildan1

Tim~! said:


> ... in standard spoken French.


 
Unless you are sending a text message or writing a post card, you should always _write_ ne...


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## sunsail

Salut,
What is the difference between these?

je ne sais pas 

je sais pas ( I heard this in one of the movies)

merci d'advance


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## newg

These sentences mean the same thing: "I don't know".
When speaking you will hear _"je sais pas"_ most of the time.
In written work, you will see _"je ne sais pas"_ most of the time.

Je sais pas > français parlé
Je ne sais pas > français écrit


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## tilt

_Je sais pas_ and _Je ne sais pas _mean the same, so they both usually translate in _I don't know_.
That said, if you really want to render in English the colloquial side of _je sais pas_, maybe _Don't know_ could work.


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## newg

Ou "_Dunno_"


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## tilt

newg said:


> Ou "_Dunno_"


Oui !


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## mplsray

newg said:


> Ou "_Dunno_"



I have doubts about this. The French generally show a greater distinction between the written language and the spoken language than do native speakers of English, according to linguist John McWhorter in his book _The Power of Babel: A Natural History of Language_. (He gives as an example of this the use in spoken French of _on_ rather than _nous_ for the second-person pronoun.) This leads me to think that both _Don't know_ and _I dunno_ would be inappropriate translations for _Je sais pas,_ in most cases, while _I don't know_ would be an appropriate translation for both _Je sais pas_ and _Je ne sais pas_ in speech and somewhat informal writing  (which includes much newspaper journalism here in the US). Finally, _I do not know_ would, of course be used to translate _Je ne sais pas_ when it appears in very formal writing.

Your thoughts on the subject?


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## tobywashere

mais regarde, ascoltate vient du québec, où personne (ou plutôt 99%) ne dit «ne». Donc «ne» est plus soigné là-bas
mais tu viens de suisse, où l'on parle le français européen, donc «ne» est plus courant (on dit «ne» 10% du temps).
et à propos, est-ce qu'on peut omettre le «ne» dans le phrase ci-dessus «personne ne dit»


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## ascoltate

Le "ne" peut toujours être omis dans le français parlé, y compris dans une phrase comme "Personne ne dit" -- par contre, ce serait difficile à l'oral de distinguer entre l'absence et la présence de "ne' dans cette phrase, parce que le schwa à la fin du mot "personne" peut également être prononcé ou omis (presque toujours omis en français québécois, mais prononcé régulièrement en français du Midi, par exemple...).


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## Lacuzon

Punky Zoé said:


> Yes, I do agree and I would say I make it more fréquently than dropping the "ne".
> Probably, a question of regional accent, and the way we do pronounce all syllables around here.
> 
> Moreover, I would say than in work related context, I generally pronounce the "ne". It is only with relatives that I pronounce sometimes "je sais pas", "ch'ais pas" or "je n'sais pas".


I've just read that whole post, and I would add:

I do not  pronounce J'sais like Ch'sais. I make a difference.

When speaking, I use:
J'sais pas (rarely)
Je sais pas (very rarely)
Je n'sais pas (often)
Je ne sais (often albeit very formal)
Je n'sais (very often)
J'ne sais pas (very often)
Je ne sais pas (rarely, formal speech) 

When writing only Je ne sais pas of course.

Ok that was for pronouns.

With nouns, when speaking,  I use 50% noun + ne +verbe + pas and 50% noun + verb + pas.

With expletive ne, I always use it in such sentences: avant qu'il ne vienne or je n'ai que.

About negative ne without pas, I use 50% je ne + verb and  50% Je ne + verb + pas. (percentage of ne + verbe increases with savoir and pouvoir).

Am I so different?


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## 2PieRad

Hello,

I'm sure there are a lot of discussions about this, but sifting through the search results of "ne" is a daunting task, so I'll just tack my question onto this thread. 

In informal spoken French, (especially in Canada), is there a tendency to keep the _ne_ with certain subjects? (je, tu, il, elle, on, ça, nous, vous, ils, elles, il y a, etc.)
-Je ne sais pas, j'sais pas, ché pas
-C'est possible, c'est pas possible.
-Vous travaillez, vous travaillez pas.
-y'a des pommes dans le panier, y'a pas de pommes dans le panier.

I was thinking about dropping the _ne_ with _il, elle, on._
Il voyage. Il voyage pas.
On part. On part pas.
Elle étudie. Elle étudie pas.

But with a verb like _avoir_, I don't think it sounds good to drop the _ne._
Il a trois frères.
Il a pas de frères. 
Il n'a pas de frères.

I think the issue is that _il a pas de frères_ begins to sound like _y'a pas de frères, il n'y a pas de frères. _

Elle a une chemise rouge.
Elle a pas de chemise rouge.
Elle n'a pas de chemise rouge.

I don't think _elle a pas_ is quite as bad as _il a pas_ because you can't confuse it with _elle n'y a pas_, which doesn't exist_.
_
On a un chien.
On a pas de chien.
On n'a pas de chien.

Because of _o*n* a_, the last two sentences sound pretty much the same, don't they?

In casual speech, would you tend to keep or omit the _ne_ in these examples?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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## Maître Capello

In casual speech, the _ne_ is typically dropped in all those cases:

_J'sais pas
C'est pas possible
Vous travaillez pas
Y a pas d'pommes
Y voyage pas
Il a pas d'frères
Elle a pas d'ch'mise rouge_​
The only case where you can't really know whether or not the _ne_ is omitted is in _on (n')a pas_ because the _on_ before _a_ triggers the liaison even in the positive. In other words, _on a_ and _on n'a_ are always pronounced the same:

_On a deux chiens_ [ɔ̃.n‿a]
_On a pas d'chien_ [ɔ̃.n‿a]
_On n'a pas d'chien_ [ɔ̃.na] = [ɔ̃.n‿a]​


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## dattse

Bonjour,

I know that French people never use "ne" in everyday conversation, e.g. "Il travaille plus ici. (He doesn't work here anymore.) However, beginners like myself are taught to use it. If I spoke fast, like native speakers, I could dispense with _ne_, but the problem is I am not very fluent yet. My question is: would it sound strange if someone spoke French slowly and omitted _ne_?

Merci !


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## atcheque

Bonjour,


dattse said:


> I know that French people never use "ne" in everyday conversation


 Wrong. _Never_ is wrong. That may answer the rest 
Don't try to mimic native speakers. Let it come naturally.


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## jekoh

As long as you drop the [l] in "_il_" and "_plus_" that's ok


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## atcheque

jekoh said:


> As long as you drop the [l] in "_il_" and "_plus_" that's ok


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## olivier68

No, Dattse. Omitting that "ne" is a common error, but remains a fault. You must use it.


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## Maître Capello

Well, I don't quite agree here. Omitting _ne_ *should* certainly be avoided in *careful speech* and it *must* be avoided in *writing* (except for dialogues). It is however so widespread in colloquial speech – even among educated native speakers – that I wouldn't consider it a mistake.

Anyway, back to the question asked, I would suggest all non-native speakers should consider omitting the _ne_ (in casual speech) only when they are really fluent in French and they know all the subtleties of colloquial speech. As already suggested above, if you are casual enough to drop the _ne_, you should also drop the /l/ in _il_, etc. You should not do things by half. In short, if you are a beginner, you should never drop that _ne_.


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