# Difference between й and ы



## Dminor

What's the difference between й and ы?

Is there a difference in pronunciation? Or is the one used in other words than the other, or something like that?


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## se16teddy

й and ы are entirely different sounds. 
й is pronounced like the English y in yes. It can't form a syllable on its own. 
We don't have a sound close to ы in English. It is a vowel, pronounced a bit like English oo in pool but with unrounded lips. 
The only thing they have in common is that they are both often transliterated as y.


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## Dminor

Ah, so if I understand it correctly, й = [j] and ы = [y]?


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## pjay

No, Russian ы fills a gap in the western vowel system. The vowel does not exist in Western languages. It's as se16teddy said an o with unrounded lips. It's a so called back vowel like [o] but unlike _._


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## Dminor

Okay, so since I've probably never heard the sound before, I just have to listen to sound samples in order to get the right "catch" of it..


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## se16teddy

Dminor said:
			
		

> Ah, so if I understand it correctly, й = [j] and ы = [y]?


 
й = [j] 
I don't think ы = [y]. Maybe ы = [i with a line through it] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonologyhttp://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/vowels.html


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## diegodbs

Russian pronunciation.


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## pjay

> Okay, so since I've probably never heard the sound before, I just have to listen to sound samples in order to get the right "catch" of it..



Well yes. Although you could try this: Try to pronounce [o]. Don't move your tongue. Your tongue should produce a closure in the back of your mouth like when you pronounce [o]. Then just move your lips without moving your tongue. Lips should not be rounded, like when you pronounce _. I guess this is a difficult exercise, as you will most likely move your tongue when you move your lips until you get the hang of it._


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## Etcetera

Hi pjay,
you're quite right. I tried to do the exercise you've described, and the sound was quite like [ы].
But, *Dminor*, the best way to learn pronuciation - of any language - is to learn it from a native speaker. Or at least from a person who has a very good level in the language.


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## Dminor

I know.  But I lack such a person.  So I'll have to do it with sound files (I can try to pronounce it following the steps above, but I need to check if it's right anyway). Thanks everybody!


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## vince

European Portuguese has the *ы* sound.

saudad*e*. leit*e*.


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## Jana337

vince said:
			
		

> European Portuguese has the *ы* sound.
> 
> saudad*e*. leit*e*.


But is the Portuguese sound so "dark", too? 

Jana


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## vince

what do you mean by "dark"?


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## Jana337

vince said:
			
		

> what do you mean by "dark"?


I cannot define it properly, but I think I mean "(a sound) coming from the throat". Makes sense, Russian natives/speakers?

Jana


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## vince

The European Portuguese sound is represented by _ with a bar through it. It's pronounced in the middle of the mouth, not the back like .

From what I've heard, the Russian sound is also the crossed-out i, which would mean it's also a mid-vowel and not a back one (represented in IPA by an upside-down m)._


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## pjay

The Russian sound is definitely a back vowel, no doubt about it. Your reference to the mid-vowelness of *ы *would make it more like a "schwa" and its likes. But it's nothing like a "schwa", which you can find in many European languages including English.


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## Etcetera

Certainly a back vowel.


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## vince

No, I am not talking about the schwa. The schwa (upside down e) is lower than the [-i-], not the same.

I think I meant "central" vowel, not "mid", which would imply half-way down.
[-i-] is a high central vowel.

Check out the positions of [-i-] and [upside m] in the IPA chart:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/IPA_chart_2005.png


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## se16teddy

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Certainly a back vowel.


 
Hi Etcetera!  If you are quoting respected Russian phonologists here, maybe you should take the matter up with Wikipedia! Wikipedia says it is a mid vowel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology


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## Etcetera

Well you're right here! It's a mid vowel, indeed. 
Sorry for the confusion.


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## looker

Well, I guess it's much easier to describe how to sound that. You must pronounce some vowel, e.g. 'i' and while doing that you move out your jaw, when you can't do it anymore you've already got it!


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## Toadie

I'm just now beginning to learn Russian, and I'm trying to figure out what the function of the character ы is.  For example, what is the difference in pronunciation of стол and столы?


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## slavic_one

*Ы* is so called "hard" *i* (*и*). It's pronounced very hard.
стол - stol
столы - staly (y - hard i)
The best is try to find some audio where some russians say for example *мы*. It's pronounced in back of mouth.


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## Outsider

The symbol ы (which is considered a letter in the Russian alphabet) represents a vowel vaguely similar to the "i" in English "bit", though it's not the same vowel. Well, sometimes it is. Its pronunciation varies mostly according to whether it's stressed or unstressed (as with all Russian vowels). More information here.

Please note that the symbol ь alone is considered a different letter (the soft sign) when not used before I.


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## Blacklack

vince said:


> European Portuguese has the *ы*  sound. saudad*e*. leit*e*.


No, it's not the same sound. It's more like shwa and can be compared only to an unstressed and reduced Russian *ы*.
Russian stressed *ы* is a bit like Norwegian *u* (in an open syllable) and Swedish *u *(in a closed syllable) — without lips being rounded, of course, — and Polish *y*, but 'darker' (more at the back of the tongue) than the latter.


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## Christo Tamarin

Dminor said:


> What's the difference between й and ы?
> 
> Is there a difference in pronunciation? Or is the one used in other words than the other, or something like that?


 


Toadie said:


> I'm just now beginning to learn Russian, and I'm trying to figure out what the function of the character ы is. For example, what is the difference in pronunciation of стол and столы?


 
The letter *й* denotes a consonant, similar to the letters *y* and *i* in the English words _bo*y *_(Cyrillic notation: бой) and _so*i*l_ (Cyrillic notation: сойл; just one syllable). 

Note that the letters *y* and *i* have the same value in English, however, they can denote either a consonant (as in _bo*y*_ and _so*i*l_) or a vowel (as in _p*i*t*y*_). 

In modern Cyrillic as it is used in Russian and Bulgarian, there is a separate letter *й* to denote the consonant while the letters *и* and *ы* always denote vowels.

Unlike consonants, vowels make syllables and can be either stressed or unstressed. Note that a vowel in a stressed and in an unstressed position can sound very differently.

So, the letters *и* and *ы* denote two similar vowels in Russian. In Bulgarian (and in some other Slavic languages as Serbian, Czech, etc), those vowels are not distinguished any longer and thus the letter *ы* is not used and replaced by *и* everywhere. (Czech people still distinguish those vowels in the orthography.)

Those who are just beginning to study Russian, at the first approximation, can regard the letters *и* and *ы* denoting the same vowel as in the English _p*i*t*y*_, e.g. 

Reason 1: While the letter *и* can be met at the beginning of a word (*игра*, e.g.), the letter *ы* cannot. Historically, before any initial *ы*, an extra *в*- was added in Proto-Slavic (e.g. *выход*).

Reason 2: The letters *и* and *ы* are not distinguished in the position immediately after a consonant *г*, *к*, *х*, *ж*, *ч*, *ш*, *щ*, or *ц*. There are orthographic rules saying which letter is to be used in these cases but the vowel is the same anyway.

So, the letters *и* and *ы* denote two different Russian vowels only in a position after a consonant different than *г*, *к*, *х*, *ж*, *ч*, *ш*, *щ*, and *ц*. Mastering your Russian at the next approximation, you have to learn that difference. Please consider that there is a difference in the preceding consonant, actually.

In modern Russian, all consonants (except *г*, *к*, *х*, *ж*, *ч*, *ш*, *щ*, and *ц*) have two versions: a hard one and a soft one. After a soft consonant, the letter *и* is used. After a hard consonant, the letter *ы* is used.

The history of the sound and letter *ы* can be the object of further considerations.


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## Blacklack

Cannot agree with Christo. Russian *и* and *ы* have a significant difference in quality because while producing them vocal organs function quite differently. So it seems better for a student to train pronunciation of *ы* from the beginning.


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## palomnik

I think part of the original confusion between й and ы stems from the fact that they are usually both transliterated as "y" in English, at least. this may lead some people to think they are identical in pronunciation.

As for the pronunciation of ы, the noticeable thing about this sound is not the sound itself, but the effect it has of velarizing the preceding consonant. If you hear a Russian pronounce the sound of the letter ы in isolation all by itself (something which Russians rarely do, since it can't stand alone at the beginning of a word), it sounds close to the English i in bit; the center of the tongue is just a bit lower. However, the velarization of the consonant in front of ы makes the vowel sound very different indeed to the learner, almost like a Turkish ı, which, however, would be a mistake.


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## b_fly

diegodbs said:


> Russian pronunciation. LINK


*ы* : *i in ill* - I don't think so... 



> Those who are just beginning to study Russian, at the first approximation, can regard the letters *и* and *ы* denoting the same vowel as in the English _p*i*t*y*_, e.g.


 
*ы* is a lot like y in pity, that's write. But not completly, because it's made of i+j, and in Russian it's 6+j (shwa+j). And how explain to Englishman what's shwa, that I don't know.


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## Outsider

b_fly said:


> *ы* is a lot like y in pity, that's write.


"Pity" is pronounced [ˈpɪti]...


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## Rare_Tiger

I'm sorry for bumping this ancient thread. I'm learning Russian currently. There are some people who know Russian in my area whom I can ask, but before I get to ask anyone, does the letter ы resemble any letter in Arabic?


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## Maroseika

Rare_Tiger said:


> I'm sorry for bumping this ancient thread. I'm learning Russian currently. There are some people who know Russian in my area whom I can ask, but before I get to ask anyone, does the letter ы resemble any letter in Arabic?



Hi Rare_Tiger, and welcome to Russian Forum!

It's all right to bump old and ancient threads - this is exactly what they are for.
However I think you have better chances to get the answer to your question, if ask it at All Languages Forum.


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## Great Dane

Good day. I don't know phonology and I am learning English pronunciation and what I have found? Russian and English vowels are quite different and some English vowels sound like between Russian и and ы.
So we may found sounds that are closer to ы
For my mind these sounds are in the words sink, simplicity (the first syllable). Not perfect but close to.


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## Miralasa

It vaguely looks like i in صِ.


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## Rare_Tiger

Miralasa said:


> It vaguely looks like i in صِ.


Alright! Now I understand! Thanks!


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