# achtzehn



## Black Forest

Hi! I was wondering if someone could tell me if "achtzehn" is pronounced with two t's or just one. I've heard a couple of native speakers, and they all seem to pronounce it as though it were "ach zehn" rather than "acht zehn". Thanks.


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## Jektor

If you click the arrow next to "achtzehn" you can hear it spoken:
dict.leo.org - achtzehn


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## Black Forest

My ears are not properly attuned to German pronunciation. That's why I'm asking.


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## Jektor

I am not a native German speaker, but my impression is that, as in English, when hard consonants appear together in words, one or other tends to be elided out in normal conversation. There is a specific reference to this elision in "achtzehn" here:
"In German, there is much juxtapositional elision... the correct pronunciation of numerals beginning with "acht-" is with the elimination of one 't'...
The preceding and following text provides extensive information on the subject of German elision, if you have a need of it:
books.google.co.uk - German Pronunciation and Phonology - achtzehn elision
.


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## Black Forest

Why, thank you! That sure helps!


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## anahiseri

I think it would take a considerable effort to pronounce "achtzehn" according to its spelling, that is, in such a way that the sound "t" can be heard twice, or with a little pause in the middle.


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## Black Forest

I see. Do you native speakers pronounce "achtzehn" according to its spelling on formal occasions?


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## manfy

No. If you were to pronounce it with two /t/-sounds, it might be misunderstood as "acht, zehn", which is a common short way of saying "acht bis zehn".


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## Black Forest

Oh, I see.


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## Jektor

Black Forest said:


> My ears are not properly attuned to German pronunciation. That's why I'm asking.


.
You and others here might find the Deutsche Welle (DW) "slow news" service for learners of German helpful.
They post daily news bulletins in slow spoken German, with a text transcript:
dw.com - langsam gesprochene nachrichten
dw.com - deutsch lernen s-2055
dw.com - learn german _s-2469
.


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## Black Forest

Thank you so much, Jector! You don't know how much this means to me!


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## bearded

manfy said:


> If you were to pronounce it with two /t/-sounds,


Why do you (and anahiseri) say ''two t sounds''? There is just one t in the word.  Would the z in 'zehn' include a further t sound?


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## elroy

bearded said:


> Would the z in 'zehn' include a further t sound?


 Yes, because it’s pronounced [ts].


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## bearded

elroy said:


> because it’s pronounced [ts]


I see. I always thought of z=ts as a unit, in which no separate t sound would be audible.


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## anahiseri

bearded said:


> I always thought of z=ts as a unit, in which no separate t sound would be audible.


Well, if the t weren't audible, it would be    s    and not    ts


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## bearded

Interesting point of view.


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## Black Forest

I believe the German "z" represents an affricate, just like the Italian "z", except unvoiced.


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## Kajjo

Black Forest said:


> if "achtzehn" is pronounced with two t's or just one


Just one kind of t-sound and that is part of the "ts" combination of letter "z".

  [aχ.t͡seːn] (similar to "ach-zehn")
  [aχt.t͡seːn] (similar "acht-zehn")



Black Forest said:


> Do you native speakers pronounce "achtzehn" according to its spelling on formal occasions?


No, the correct pronunciation is just that: correct.  A "hyper-correct" version would be just wrong.


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## berndf

Black Forest said:


> I believe the German "z" represents an affricate, just like the Italian "z", except unvoiced.


The Italian _z_ is also unvoiced except in initial position.


anahiseri said:


> Well, if the t weren't audible, it would be    s    and not    ts


That's how I see it as well.


Kajjo said:


> A "hyper-correct" version would be just wrong.


With a double-closure yes, I fully agree. A long _t_ without intermediate release would sound "bookish" but not "wrong".

The historical pronunciation was probably [t:s], like _zz_ in Italian and like it was in German words like _hetzen_. When the long consonants merged with their short counterparts in modern German, the final _t_ of the first syllable ceased to be audible.


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## bearded

Black Forest said:


> I believe the German "z" represents an affricate, just like the Italian "z", except unvoiced.





berndf said:


> The Italian _z_ is also unvoiced except in initial position.


In Italian we have both, voiced and unvoiced z. But the voiced z can actually be found not only in initial position: e.g. in the word _zanzara _(mosquito) both zs  are voiced. And a double z can be sometimes voiced (like in _razzo = _rocket) and sometimes unvoiced (like in _tazza _= cup) - mostly according to complicated derivation rules from Latin.

If unvoiced z is represented as /ts/, I'm sure voiced z will be /dz/.  I'm uncertain as concerns double z (maybe /tsts/ and /dzdz/ respectively….?).


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## berndf

Interesting, thank you. I have only come across the voiced variant in initial position and that is what people told me it was only there. Could this be a regional thing? I was working in Lugano and the people there were practically all from Lombardy or southern Ticcino, which is linguistically Lombard as well. I have checked the pronunciation razzo on Forvo and 3 were voiced but 1 was invoiced. So there is variation.

The long unvoiced _zz_ is clearly [t:s] and that was very likely also the original pronunciation in _achtzehn_. German does not have many long consonants left but when they occur they no so at morpheme boundaries or even word boundaries with liaison effects. Example: _Schifffahrt_ (contrasting with _Schiffart = Schiff-art_) or_ im Meer_.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> Interesting, thank you. I have only come across the voiced variant in initial position and that is what people told me it was only there. Could this be a regional thing? I was working in Lugano and the people there were practically all from Lombardy or southern Ticcino, which is linguistically Lombard as well. I have checked the pronunciation razzo on Forvo and 3 were voiced but 1 was invoiced. So there is variation.


Yes, there are regional variations in Italy as concerns pronunciation of z in various positions. However, what I described/tried to describe is the standard pronunciation - or, in German terms, die_ Bühnenaussprache_ (do you utter a long sh in this word? or do you clearly distinguish: first s and then sh?).
And in _Schiffart_ can a shorter a be perceived, compared to Schifffahrt? Thanks in advance for your replies.


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## berndf

It is not exactly a minimal pair as Schiffart usually has a glottal stop at the beginning of -_art_. But the f in Schifffahrt is surely long.

In _Aussprache_ the _s_ may or may not be dropped. But if it is dropped, it does not cause lengthening of the _sch... _Or maybe sometimes. Anyway, the standard variant is with _s._


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> _ Bühnenaussprache_ (do you utter a long sh in this word?


What do you mean with long? There is only one kind of "sch"-sound [ʃ] and that is pronounced. The "s" before the [ʃ] is maybe a bit weakened but clearly present. The [ʃ] is normal.



bearded said:


> And in _Schiffart_ can a shorter a be perceived, compared to Schifffahrt?


No, the last syllable is exactly the _same _diphthong [aːɐ̯] sound and the result of r-vocalisation.

Consider the minimal pair:

fad [faːt]
Fahrt [faːɐ̯t]

Since the second syllable of Schiffart starts with a vowel, we have an additional glottal stop. Further, a second f-sound is pronounced. There are two differences between the words, but the vowels are the same.

Schiffart (Schiff + Art) [ˈʃɪf ʔaːɐ̯t]
Schifffahrt (Schiff + Fahrt) [ˈʃɪfˌfaːɐ̯t]


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> No, the last syllable is exactly the _same _diphthong [aːɐ̯] sound and the result of r-vocalisation.


It's about the consonant (the f), not the vowel length.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> It's about the consonant (the f), not the vowel length.


Sorry, I don't understand you. The question was:



bearded said:


> And in _Schiffart_ can a shorter a be perceived, compared to Schifffahrt?


In Schifffahrt there are two f-sounds, but the question was about the a-sound.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> In Schifffahrt there are two f-sounds.


A single long one. That describes it better. But to a certain degree it is a matter of terminology and not of fact. So, there is no point in arguing too much about is.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> A single long one.


I see your point, but both pronunciations are possible and valid. My own pronunciation depends on how strong I stress the word.

In spontaneous speech and unstressed position I agree that I pronounce [ff]. However, in stressed position I pronounce [fˌf]. Wiktionary (with all agreed limitations) gives the latter, too.


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## anahiseri

Und dann gibt's noch die *Skifahrt. . . .   *


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## Black Forest

Danke sehr!


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