# être entre le marteau et l'enclume



## gevreyf

Bonjour,

Avez vous la traduction anglaise de l`expression?

"etre entre le marteau et l`enclume"


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## Agent Literary

Hello gevreyf,
If it means what I think it means (being trapped between two equally difficult decisions/things/situations) then the English equivalent is, "To be between a rock and a hard place."


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## gevreyf

Many Thanks for that answer.


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## archijacq

pourquoi pas:
"caught between hammer and anvil" ?


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## Agent Literary

I have never heard that in English - it is certainly not an idiom.


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## Crème Brulée

archijacq said:


> pourquoi pas:
> "caught between hammer and anvil" ?



Bonjour,

Oui ,c'est intéressant mais ça se dit pas. Pour rigoler entre amis qui parlent les deux langues ça serait plutôt drôle!


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## edwingill

to be between the devil and the deep blue sea or to be between a rock and a hard place


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## Suehil

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.


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## Crème Brulée

Suehil said:


> You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.



I like this suggestion too! I thought of another one:
"It's a catch 22 situation".


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## OlivierG

Hi,

I'm not sure that "to be between a rock and a hard place" conveys the same meaning than "entre le marteau et l'enclume".
Here is a definition of this expression (Wikipedia):


> *Être entre le marteau et l'enclume. *
> Être pris entre deux parties que l'on ne peut satisfaire simultanément ou servir d'intermédiaire entre deux parties qui ont des choses à se reprocher.


It means more to be caught into a conflict in which you are not personally involved.


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## mignardise

I think that "caught between a rock and a hard place" is about the closest you'll get to a literal translation. The specific definition and situation described by OlivierG falls under the domain of situations covered within the phrase "caught between a rock and a hard place". 

For example, if I couldn't make my mom and dad both happy in any given situation, I'd say that I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.


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## broglet

Maurice Rat in his "Petit dictionnaire de locutions françaises" suggests a more general meaning: "Être pris entre deux partis ou deux personnes qui ont des intérêts opposés et recevoir des coups ou des dommages de part et d'autre"  Both Collins-Robert and Oxford-Hachette translate it as "to be between the devil and the deep blue sea".  To my mind "caught between a rock and a hard place" means much the same, as does (for those who enjoy mythological references) "to be between Scylla and Charybdis"


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## pitchou

broglet said:


> To my mind "caught between a rock and a hard place" means much the same, as does (for those who enjoy mythological references) "to be between Scylla and Charybdis"


 
Also in French "voguer de Charybde en Scylla"


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## Agent Literary

mignardise said:


> I think that "caught between a rock and a hard place" is about the closest you'll get to a literal translation. The specific definition and situation described by OlivierG falls under the domain of situations covered within the phrase "caught between a rock and a hard place".
> 
> For example, if I couldn't make my mom and dad both happy in any given situation, I'd say that I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.


 
I agree entirely. I also suspect that being "between the devil and the deep blue sea," is more of an AE expression, having never heard it myself in Britain. They both seem to able to encompass the meaning of the French though, so I think either will do.


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## broglet

Agent Literary said:


> I also suspect theat being "between the devil and the deep blue sea," is more of an AE expression, having never heard it myself in Britain


I disagree. It is commonly used in Britain.  You must have been in Paris too long!


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## Agent Literary

broglet said:


> I disagree. It is commonly used in Britain. You must have been in Paris too long!


 
Dammit! You may be right 
In any case, I still think both are legitimate translations.


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## edwingill

This is what Petit Robert says abou the matter: Être entre le marteau et l'enclume, pris entre deux camps adverses et exposé à recevoir des coups des deux côtés.


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## Paf le chien

From TLFi enclume:

‣ _Mettre le doigt (se trouver) entre l'enclume et le marteau._ Se trouver entre deux partis opposés qui présentent tous deux des inconvénients, des contraintes. _Ami! ne mettons pas le doigt entre le marteau et l'enclume_ (Borel, _Champavert,_ 1833, p. 67). _Cependant l'Iran est pris entre le marteau soviétique et l'enclume anglo-saxonne_ (Mauriac, _Journal,_ 1950, p. 194).

 Hope this may Help


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## Agent Literary

edwingill said:


> This is what Petit Robert says abou the matter: Être entre le marteau et l'enclume, pris entre deux camps adverses et exposé à recevoir des coups des deux côtés.





Paf le chien said:


> From TLFi enclume:
> 
> ‣ _Mettre le doigt (se trouver) entre l'enclume et le marteau._ Se trouver entre deux partis opposés qui présentent tous deux des inconvénients, des contraintes. _Ami! ne mettons pas le doigt entre le marteau et l'enclume_ (Borel, _Champavert,_ 1833, p. 67). _Cependant l'Iran est pris entre le marteau soviétique et l'enclume anglo-saxonne_ (Mauriac, _Journal,_ 1950, p. 194).


 
These both show pretty conclusively that the "devil/sea" and "rock/hard place" oppositions are the right ones for "l'enclume/le marteau".
Are there any similar expressions in French to describe this situation. A slightly different, but certainly connected phrase in English is "to go out of the frying pan and into the fire". In this case, you are not caught between two difficult circumstances/people, but rather going from one to the other and seeing no improvement. How is this expressed in French? Idiomatically? Is this worth another thread? I think so...


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## edwingill

avoir le choix entre la peste et le choléra?


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## Agent Literary

edwingill said:


> avoir le choix entre la peste et le choléra?


 
Wow! That's pretty strong. I've started a new thread for this one. Incidentally, someone has just posted the phrase "avoir le c** entre deux chaises" in that thread (a feeling I'm experiencing right now, in fact). This seems to me like a natural, colloquial equivalent for "l'enclume/le marteau". Am I right?


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## nous2et2

je ne dirais pas que c'est l'équivalent.  Pour moi, 3avoir le cul entre deux chaises" c'est plus être dans une situation désagréable où on ne sait pas sur quelle "chaise" s'assoire.

Je pense aussi à l'expression "ne pas savoir sur quel pied danser". La personne à plusieurs informations contradictoire et ne sais plus laquelle prendre en compte.


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## wildan1

I agree that _devil/deep blue sea_ and _rock/hard place_ are *not* the same as _entre le marteau et l'enclume, _which really means_ to be stuck in the middle of a situation _or _to be left holding the bag._


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## Pedro y La Torre

broglet said:


> I disagree. It is commonly used in Britain.  You must have been in Paris too long!



Old thread but I have never heard 'to be between the devil and the deep blue sea' in common speech. Without context, I wouldn't have had the foggiest idea of what it means.

To be between a rock and a hard place, however, is widely used.


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## wildan1

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I have never heard 'to be between the devil and the deep blue sea' in common speech.


Well, the expression has been around for almost 400 years now--


> *"Between the devil and the deep blue sea"* is an idiom meaning a dilemma—i.e., to choose between two undesirable situations (equivalent to "between a rock and a hard place").
> 
> The first recorded citation of "the Devil and the deep sea" in print is in Robert Monro's _His expedition with the worthy Scots regiment called Mac-keyes_, 1637: "I, with my partie, did lie on our poste, as betwixt the devill and the deep sea."


Source

I don't go around saying it on a daily basis, but its use is fairly common in AE and certainly not considered dated here.

But as I said above, I do not equate its meaning with that of _entre le marteau et l'enclume_.


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## broglet

An American when asked if he would vote for Clinton or Trump said 'It's like choosing between pneumonia and dysentery'


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## Nicomon

For those who like regionalisms, in Quebec we say :  _être pris / se trouver entre l'arbre et l'écorce. _
Copied from Antidote: 





> entre l’arbre et l’écorce
> Entre deux camps, deux partis, dans une situation inconfortable. Se trouver entre l’arbre et l’écorce.


 There is also : _Mettre le doigt entre l'arbre et l'écorce_
And the English equivalent would indeed be : _ between a rock and a hard place, _as per this page

Entre le marteau et l'enclume is given as a synonym, however... 





> (by extension, idiomatic) Loosely identical to "In a bad situation"; or to _between a rock and a hard place_ or _between the devil and the deep blue sea_. But it is not so strong and it doesn't catch the idea of being forced to take into account antagonist interests (the "hammer" and the "anvil"). when a decision is hard to make between one or the opposite one, neither of them being ideal.


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## broglet

A literal reading of being 'entre le marteau et l'enclume' seems to suggest that something bad is about to happen to you and there is no choice to be made. Is this how it is used? The other metaphors imply that you have to make a choice between equally unappealing alternatives.


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## Nicomon

@ broglet ... just to get the ball rolling again.   I personally don't use the expression, but I found this (bolding mine). 





> Être pris entre le marteau et l'enclume = *être pris entre deux feux* ; se trouver attaqué de deux cotés à la fois sans pouvoir se défendre.
> Ex. : Entre les exigences de rentabilité des actionnaires et les revendications des syndicats, je suis pris entre le marteau et l'enclume.  *Source*


  I would indeed be more likely so say « _pris entre deux feux_ »*.
*
And *this page* of the WR dictionary once again suggests the _rock/hard place_ or_  devil/deep blue sea_  idioms to translate that to English.


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## catheng06

I do agree with posts 28 and 29

These two expressions mean the same to my French ears.


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