# FR: Elles viennent étayer son propos



## AJ2018

Could someone please explain the nuance added when using the verb *venir *in the following context. 

_Les quelques observations qui suivent *viennent étayer *son propos._

Please don't accuse me of not researching. I looked as best as I could online, and I did not find any information that I was satisfied with. There is info out there, but again, it did not clear up the confusion I have. 

FYI: I have checked: The Academie Française, Le Tresor and others. While some cover the issue, I still don't get the nuance. 

So, again, if there is someone who can explain the nuance, I welcome your remarks.


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## Maître Capello

See TLFi s.v. _venir_ (emphasis mine):


> *III. −* _Empl. semi-auxil._
> *A. −* *Venir* + inf.
> *1.* [Indique le but du mouvement au terme duquel se réalise l'action exprimée par l'inf., le commencement de l'action exprimée par l'inf.] _Venir acheter, réclamer qqc.; venir voir qqc.; venir chercher, voir qqn; venir demander conseil._ _Juliette eut presque de la joie lorsqu'elle entendit le pas de sa grand-mère qui venait vérifier au salon le bon fonctionnement des convenances_ (Miomandre, _Écrit eau_, 1908, p. 137).
> *2.* [Indique le caractère fortuit ou possible de l'action exprimée par l'inf.] _On viendra sans doute dire que._ _Que le courtisan ne vienne pas ramper sur mon amour; que la vipère ne vienne pas jeter son venin sur mes fleurs_ (Dumas père, _Intrigue et amour_, 1847, 7etabl., 3, p. 274).
> *3.* [Indique une mise en relief de l'action exprimée par l'inf.] _Vous venez prétendre que; ne venez pas dire que._ _Le souvenir vague et confus venait étinceler par moments à son esprit_ (Sue, _Atar-Gull_, 1831, p. 18)._ Mais une occupation vint la distraire _(Flaub., _Cœur simple_, 1877, p. 25).


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## AJ2018

Thank you Maître Capello for expertly helping me locate the above explanation.

I would like to focus on what you highlighted. _Indique une mise en relief de l'action exprimée par l'inf._

That means that, if I were to say ... *Les *_*quelques observations qui suivent viennent étayer son propos ... *_could I then write in English the following:

_*The few observations that follow will surely / really / indeed support his remarks.*_

Does this capture this important nuance in English?


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## Maître Capello

Not exactly.  Your use of the adverbs (surely/really/indeed) is stronger than the original French.

In the English translation, I would simply disregard _venir_:

_The few observations that follow support his remarks._


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## AJ2018

@Maître Capello, I have seen several translations of this, and they all disregard the _*venir*_.

However, this raises the question: what sort of emphasis, then, are we actually putting on the word _*étayer ? *_Because the definition you cited specifically says:


> [Indique une mise en relief de l'action exprimée par l'inf.]


   -  It indicates an emphasis (mise en relief) on the action expressed by the infinitive.

So, if I drop the _venir _and just say _*support*_, well, we have done just the opposite. We have not added any emphasis to the infinitive (étayer).

Curious to get your thoughts.


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## Maître Capello

It may be used for emphasis, but it may also be a mere figure of speech, which is the case here.


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## Bezoard

Yes, you could also use other figures of speech as :
_Les observations qui suivent vont étayer son propos /Les observations qui suivent sont là pour étayer son propos/ Voici des observations pour étayer son propos._


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## AJ2018

@Bezoard - Thank you so much for chiming in. 

Could you give some of those examples in English. The issue is that I'm trying to capture this nuance in English. 

Thanks so much!


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## Enquiring Mind

Rather difficult on the basis of the single short sentence you quote, and the figure of speech (or style) is really quite subtle. Maybe* "(And) there are *the following observations which support ..."

Here's an elegantly (in my view) translated example from Amnesty International where, of course, they've changed the structure in the English version and concertinaed the first sentence into the one that follows, but it's difficult to say that the translator has been able to render the nuance of "viennent". In your example, we don't know what follows or what similar possibilities there might be to play around with the sentence structure.


> De nombreux éléments viennent étayer le fait que les prisons égyptiennes sont surpeuplées, manquent de soins médicaux et présentent de piètres conditions d’hygiène et sanitaires. Aussi les autorités doivent-elles envisager de libérer les détenus placés en détention provisoire et les détenus particulièrement vulnérables à la maladie, notamment ceux qui souffrent de pathologies sous-jacentes et ceux qui sont âgés.
> In addition, given well-documented concerns that Egyptian prisons are overcrowded and suffer from poor health care and hygiene and sanitation conditions, the authorities should consider releasing detainees held in pre-trial detention, as well detainees who are especially vulnerable to the disease, such as those with underlying medical conditions and the elderly.



Even at the level of advanced translation, it's not always possible to render every stylistic nuance.


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## AJ2018

@Enquiring Mind Thank you for your thoughtful contribution.

There is, indeed, a lot going on in the example sentence you have put forth. But, it is brilliant! It does EXACTLY what the French definition calls for, placing that emphasis on _*étayer.*_

How? Through the use of the word _*well*, as in *WELL-documented*. _The translator didn't simply write _*documented*_, and call it a day. That is what I am seeing all too often, sentences that simply drop this ever so important nuance.

I now look forward to coming across this phrase in the future in my work. At least I'll know the leeway I am granted in rendering this idea.

I trust this thread will be quite fruitful to future readers.

Cordial regards,


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## Maître Capello

To be honest, I think you are overthinking this.  The French does not really emphasize _étayer_ as much as you think it does.

Moreover, "well-documented" is a bit of a stretch as it does not convey the same nuance as the French original, which is a lot more factual. As a matter of fact, nothing is said to be "documented" in the French version.


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## Locape

It's true the original text talks about 'éléments', not 'documents' (a large number of elements), it could be anything (allegations, claims, etc).


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## Enquiring Mind

But note that the verb "document" means _décrire, rendre compte de, récolter des données sur, fournir des preuves_ so that covers all bases - allegations, claims, witnesses' phone calls - anything that claims to be "evidence".  "Well-documented" is fine in the Amnesty translation, in my view.


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## AJ2018

You might be right @Maître Capello. I don't doubt you. But the dictionary is clear in that emphasis is to place on the infinitive. Just leaving _étayer _without any emphasis goes completely against what the dictionary indicates.

In fact, That definition you highlighted is from the _Centre National de Ressource Textuelles et Lexicales (CNRTL) -_ They are absolutely meticulous about their definitions.


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## Maître Capello

AJ2018 said:


> But the dictionary is clear in that emphasis is to place on the infinitive.


In my opinion there are other uses not clearly listed in the dictionary.


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## Hildy1

In #9, are you sure that the French text is the original and the English is a translation? The English version is, in my opinion, better than the rather wordy French one.


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## Enquiring Mind

I don't know which came first - the_ chicken_ or the _œuf,_ the _poulet _or the _egg._ I just tried to find an example where _viennent faire quelque chose_ occurred in a French text and a stylistically and professionally comparable English version was available online in order to see what, if anything, the translator could do in English with the _viennent, _and the answer here does, indeed, seem to be "nothing". It's really a minor stylistic nuance in French.
The multilingual pages on the websites of large organisations often aren't an academically perfect rendering between one language and the next, and of course there's always room for the translator's personal style and feel for the idiom of the target language.


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## Hildy1

Enquiring Mind said:


> ... in order to see what, if anything, the translator could do in English with the _viennent, _and the answer here does, indeed, seem to be "nothing".


If the English text is the original one, then the question is not what the English translator does with _viennent_, but why the French translator uses it (along with the other fuzzy verbiage).


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## AJ2018

@Hildy1 - I see we must have another professional translator in our midst. You, indeed, asked the right question. Is the original the English or the French? The fact that we cannot tell for certain is a sign of top-notch translation work. However, that very thought did cross my mind, although fleetingly. Particularly, with the phrase “well-documented concerns.” Evidence is usually what is “well-documented, particularly when you’re talking about overcrowding, poor hygiene, and poor healthcare conditions in a prison. But nonetheless, excellent observation.


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## Locape

I personally don't find the French version wordy or fuzzy, I find it perfectly good French.


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## Hildy1

Locape said:


> I personally don't find the French version wordy or fuzzy, I find it perfectly good French.


I was thinking particularly of the very beginning, not the rest of the passage. In any case, you are certainly more qualified than I am to judge the style.


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## Locape

It's true you might wonder why an article on the Amnesty International website on egyptian prisons need to be stylish or formal. It looks like it's a quote from Philip Luther who's working for them concerning Middle East and North Africa, he might be used to this kind of formal language in his job.


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