# I want a divorce



## ampurdan

Hi!

This usage of the indefinite article puzzles me: "I want *a* divorce". Context: one spouse tells the other that he wants to put a legal end to their married life.

En castellano, decimos "quiero el divorcio". It is understood that a couple can only get one divorce for their current marital relationship, so it's "the" divorce. I've been told that the spouse wants _a_ divorce because he does not want any specific divorce (the divorce he saw on TV), "any divorce will do". Well this explanation sounds very strange to a Spanish speaker, since a couple cannot get "any divorce", but just the divorce that puts an end to their marriage. Noone could want the divorce he saw on TV because it's the divorce of other people.

It looks as though "a divorce" was treated like a thing. Something you could order in a restaurant or buy in a shop. "I want a divorce and a cheeseburger, please", that's how it sounded to me when I first heard it.

I would like to understand the logic under this usage, if possible. 

I've asked about this question in the English forum (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1487204), but what I've been told there has made me realize that it would be perhaps more easy to find an answer in this forum.


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## Allison de Arkansas

Hi ampurdan,

I can only speculate as to why we say "a divorce" in English. However, maybe this will shed some light on your inquiry. Once a couple's divorce is being legally processed, and especially once it has been completed, it becomes *the divorce* or *our/my divorce*. As in "I'm glad the divorce is over." and "I don't want to talk about my divorce."

From this perspective, the indefinite article indicates uncertainty and/or incompleteness.


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## ampurdan

Thank you for your answer, Allison. That's pretty much the same I've been finally told in the other thread in the English Only forum, but it's good it also comes up here because we can compare it to Spanish.

In that thread, ms.creant put these sample sentences:



> *I am afraid of what a divorce will do to the children.*



In Spanish, we could say:

"Tengo miedo de lo que implique un/el divorcio para los hijos".

I think we would choose "un" if we would just considering the possibility of a divorce, but we would choose "el" if we were already in the process or considering it like a very real possibility.



> *I never thought we would get a divorce.*



"Nunca creí que conseguiría el divorcio".

We would not use "un" in this case, it would sound weird.

So, I think the logic is basicly the same, only that English and Spanish put the divisory line in different places.


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## sound shift

I posted something about this in your other thread, Ampurdan. but something else has come to mind.

You talk about "logic" and being "puzzled", but there is no "absolute logic" that applies to all languages; there is only the logic that appplies within a certain structure. Languages reflect different ways of seeing things; we should not be puzzled when one language differs from another.


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## ampurdan

sound shift said:


> You talk about "logic" and being "puzzled", but there is no "absolute logic" that applies to all languages; there is only the logic that appplies within a certain structure. Languages reflect different ways of seeing things; we should not be puzzled when one language differs from another.



Yes, I know. I used "logic" because I lacked an appropriate word. I thought I had made clear that I did not intend to imply that English or Spanish is illogical, but that I did not understand the "view of English language". Sorry if what I said was offensive, I did not mean it, really.


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## Thomas1

I am wondering if this can have something to do with the generic use of articles in both languages.

In English the definite article used as a generic determiner has rather limited use in comparison to Romance languages. As a result the language of Shakespeare often uses the indefinite article while a Romance language will use the definite one. 

*I never thought we would get a divorce.
*"Nunca creí que conseguiría el divorcio".
The chances of getting a divorce at all were low in both cases according to their author. 

How about such a sentence:
_I never thought we would wipe out the elephant._
The use of the indefinite article wouldn't have much sense, I believe.
How about Spanish:
_Nunca creí que exterminaríamos el elefante._
Sorry if they aren't idomatic sentences, I am still learning.

Does it make sense to you, the natives?


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## ampurdan

"Nunca creí que exterminaríamos el elefante". I think you mean the species, right? Then this sentence is OK, but I fail to understand what it has to do with the subject topic of this thread.


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## Thomas1

Don't the sentences:
_I never thought we would get a divorce.
Nunca creí que conseguiría el divorcio_
use articles in their generic function?


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## ampurdan

I must admit I'm rather clueless as to what is the generic function of articles.


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## Thomas1

The instance of it, you can find in the examples with  the elephant where it means "the species". It is opposed to specific, for example _He killed the elephant we'd found wound two days ago in the forest._


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## ampurdan

Oh! I see. Then, no, I don't think that in "Quiero el divorcio", "el" is a generic definite article, it refers to a specific divorce, in my opinion. I may be wrong.

And judging by what English speakers have said in the other thread, I think the "a" in "I want a divorce" is not a generic article either.


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## NewdestinyX

ampurdan said:


> Oh! I see. Then, no, I don't think that in "Quiero el divorcio", "el" is a generic definite article, it refers to a specific divorce, in my opinion. I may be wrong.
> 
> And judging by what English speakers have said in the other thread, I think the "a" in "I want a divorce" is not a generic article either.


Ampurdan, not to muddy the waters too much, but it's not at all uncommon to hear 'the divorce' in English.. It just has to have the right context.

She's the one that wanted the divorce.

In that sentence -- 'a' would sound weird to my ears. 

In this case it's "the divorce we're going thru".. that's why the 'the' seems better.

Grant


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## ampurdan

NewdestinyX said:


> Ampurdan, not to muddy the waters too much, but it's not at all uncommon to hear 'the divorce' in English.. It just has to have the right context.
> 
> She's the one that wanted the divorce.
> 
> In that sentence -- 'a' would sound weird to my ears.
> 
> In this case it's "the divorce we're going thru".. that's why the 'the' seems better.
> 
> Grant



So:

"She's the one who could want a divorce".

"She's the one who wants a divorce".

But:

"She's the one who wanted the divorce".

Did I get it right?


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## Sköll

ampurdan said:


> Hi!
> 
> This usage of the indefinite article puzzles me: "I want *a* divorce". Context: one spouse tells the other that he wants to put a legal end to their married life.
> 
> En castellano, decimos "quiero el divorcio". It is understood that a couple can only get one divorce for their current marital relationship, so it's "the" divorce. I've been told that the spouse wants _a_ divorce because he does not want any specific divorce (the divorce he saw on TV), "any divorce will do". Well this explanation sounds very strange to a Spanish speaker, since a couple cannot get "any divorce", but just the divorce that puts an end to their marriage. Noone could want the divorce he saw on TV because it's the divorce of other people.
> 
> It looks as though "a divorce" was treated like a thing. Something you could order in a restaurant or buy in a shop. "I want a divorce and a cheeseburger, please", that's how it sounded to me when I first heard it.
> 
> I would like to understand the logic under this usage, if possible.
> 
> I've asked about this question in the English forum (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1487204), but what I've been told there has made me realize that it would be perhaps more easy to find an answer in this forum.


The use of 'a' with divorce is unusual in English. 

Divorce is not like a car: I want a car and a divorce!

The usage may have its origins in the religious aspects of divorce: Until divorce do us part!

Whatever the reason, you ask for *a *divorce (un divorcio), not *the *divorce (el divorcio).


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## Thomas1

> I'm sorry, but neither of your sentences work. "the divorce" does not work, because that would imply that there is a specific divorce in mind. This is not the case, the man wants "a" divorce, not a specific divorce (the divorce I saw on TV) - any divorce will do!
> 
> "I want divorce" could be said, but not in this context. This means he wants divorce as a general concept. For example: "I want divorce (to exist) in our society". But this is far too general to be applied to this context. He wants "a divorce" - one, and any one will do


  The explanation by Welshie seems to be in line with my way of thinking.

  In English also the indefinite article has a generic function, like in Spanish I assume. The thing is that the definite article that has this function* too doesn’t work the same in both languages. 

  *there is also a difference in the degree of genericalness between the definite and indefinite article.

  Welshie’s sentence:
_I want divorce in our society. _
  Wouldn’t it translate as: 
_Quiero el divorcio en nuestra sociedad. _
  into Spanish?

  A wife to her husband:
_I want a divorce. Quiero el divorcio._
  This, to my mind, is also generic. Spanish definite artcle has at least two funcitons: specific and generic. They may be mixed up, I'd wager.

  The same divorce becomes specific after it’s been pronounced (notice that it is also _pronounce a divorce_ in English, I guess it’s _pronunciar el divorcio_ in Castilian, no?):
  Two friends are talking about Mike:
_His parents broke up for good. He doesn't seem to cope with it._
_Yeah, the divorce (of his parents) has really depressed him._


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## ampurdan

As I said, I may be wrong, but I only see a generic article in Welshie's explanation when s/he talks about the zero article "I want divorce to exist in our society" and that's not the usage we were discussing.

"Quiero el divorcio" is not talking about "a state of divorcedness", it's talking about a specific divorce.


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## elianecanspeak

I think that the distinction between wanting something that you don't yet have  --

legal matters: a divorce, an annulment, a restraining order --or any object : a Jaguar, a new Catalan dictionary, a house in the country -- all of these refer to something that is not yet realized, and therefor take an indefinite article.

Once the divorce or annulment has occurred, or you have bought the dictionary or car, you choose a definite article because you have a particular item or event in mind. 

This is similar in concept to the the distinction between the use of the indicative and subjunctive in Spanish:  Busco alguien que pueda explicarme . . . and Conosco alguien que puede explicare  . . .

This being said, you hear both 
"He was the one who wanted a divorce" and
"He is the one who wanted the divorce"

with equivalent meaning, because the reference is to something that has already occurred.


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## ewie

Lo siento Ampurdan, pero sigo convencido (tal como dije en el otro hilo) que en las lenguas románicas _el divorcio (el divorci, le divorce ...)_ que se ve en *Quiero el divorcio* es un nombre abstracto ~ más o menos _Quiero salir del «estado de matrimonio» y entrar en el «estado de divorcio»_ ... mientras que en inglés _*I want a divorce* _es un nombre verbal confused ~ _Quiero «un divorciándome»_


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## ampurdan

ewie said:


> Lo siento Ampurdan, pero sigo convencido (tal como dije en el otro hilo) que en las lenguas románicas _el divorcio (el divorci, le divorce ...)_ que se ve en *Quiero el divorcio* es un nombre abstracto ~ más o menos _Quiero salir del «estado de matrimonio» y entrar en el «estado de divorcio»_ ... mientras que en inglés _*I want a divorce* _es un nombre verbal confused ~ _Quiero «un divorciándome»_



Quiero el divorcio, quiero la nulidad, quiero la separación.

Quiero obtener la sentencia de divorcio, nulidad, separación.

Para mi es algo concreto, no es "quiero el estado de divorcio".

Ahora que lo considero así, no me suena raro: "quiero una sentencia de divorcio". Lo que pasa es que en castellano no lo solemos pensar así, creo yo, porque normalmente solo habrá una sentencia que ponga fin al matrimonio (que luego se podrá recurrir, pero en cualquier caso el matrimonio finalizará o no a partir de esa sentencia). Por eso es "la sentencia", el divorcio. Es el único divorcio, por eso es "el" divorcio en castellano.

Por lo que he visto, por lo que han dicho otros, en inglés solo llega a ser "el" divorcio una vez se ha acabado el proceso.


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## NewdestinyX

ampurdan said:


> Por lo que he visto, por lo que han dicho otros, en inglés solo llega a ser "el" divorcio una vez se ha acabado el proceso.


I think that is the case. 

"The" divorce is the 'process' we *went* through. And it's in the past. As other native English speakers have pointed out - it's fine to use 'a' in the 'past statement' as well but 'the' would seem strange in the present or other tenses that refer to the desire for 'a' divorce. But the difference between 'a' and 'the' in English is very much a semantic one and neither one is incorrect and 'a divorce' is way more common all around.

Grant


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## elianecanspeak

Ampurdan-- I just noticed a problem in one of your sentences in post #15.

"She's the one who could want a divorce".

 "Could" sounds slightly irregular to me, although it might be acceptable in some English dialects.  I think this sounds a little strange to me because "could" means "would be able to", and being able to want a divorce seems too convoluted.

"She's the one who would want a divorce"   or
"She's the one who might want a divorce"

would make more sense to me.


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## neal41

ampurdan said:


> under[/S] behind this usage, if possible.


 
I cannot think of any arguments that would elucidate the matter that you have brought up.  However, it occurs to me to make an analogy.

Why do we say 'behind this usage' but not 'under this usage'?  Metaphorically either one makes sense, but we use only one.  Both mean "I would like to understand the logic upon which this usage is based."

Maybe the difference between 'the divorce' and 'a divorce' is mostly just arbitrary.


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## Forero

Creo que "a divorce" y "the divorce" se usan gramáticamente como "an abortion" y "the arbortion", como "Quiero un aborto" y "el aborto que tuve".

(A algunos un aborto o un divorcio es algo que se puede comprar múltiples veces, o el divorcio es un mero negocio. )


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## elianecanspeak

Exacto, Forero.


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## ampurdan

Thank you, Elianecanspeak, Forero and Neal! Thank you for your corrections too!

"Quiero un aborto" sería una manera rara de decir, normalmente diríamos "quiero abortar". Sí diríamos "tuvo un aborto", "el aborto que tuvo".


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## NewdestinyX

neal41 said:


> ampurdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to understand the logic under behind this usage, if possible.
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot think of any arguments that would elucidate the matter that you have brought up.  However, it occurs to me to make an analogy.
> 
> Why do we say 'behind this usage' but not 'under this usage'?  Metaphorically either one makes sense, but we use only one.  Both mean "I would like to understand the logic upon which this usage is based."
> 
> Maybe the difference between 'the divorce' and 'a divorce' is mostly just arbitrary.
Click to expand...

I think 'behind' refers to _the precedent from a while back in history_. So 'behind' makes sense to me'. "Under" could work too for 'underpinning'. 

Interesting question though,
Grant


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## Peterrobertini7

ewie said:


> Lo siento Ampurdan, pero sigo convencido (tal como dije en el otro hilo) que en las lenguas románicas _el divorcio (el divorci, le divorce ...)_ que se ve en *Quiero el divorcio* es un nombre abstracto ~ más o menos _Quiero salir del «estado de matrimonio» y entrar en el «estado de divorcio»_ ... mientras que en inglés _*I want a divorce* _es un nombre verbal confused ~ _Quiero «un divorciándome»_


 

I want a divorce = quiero divorciarme
I want the divorce = quiero el divorcio
I asked for a divorce= le pedí el divorcio.


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## Forero

_Divorce_ can be either a count noun or a noncount noun:

_They are headed for a divorce._ [count]
_They are headed for divorce._ [noncount]

Sometimes "el divorcio" means _divorce_ in the non-count sense, but in the case of "I want a divorce", we have the count noun that refers to the/an end to a marriage. The "count" in this case is not one as opposed to two or three but one in contrast to none, "a divorce" vs. "no divorce". Count "the divorce" would contrast with some other divorce but not with "no divorce".

_There is a dog under the sofa._ = Hay un perro bajo el sofá. [¿Correcto?]
_There will be an end to this marriage._ = _ [¿Cómo se dice en español?]

_There is no dog under the sofa._ = No hay perro bajo el sofá.
_There will be no end to this marriage._ = _ [¿Cómo se dice?]

_I want _(_to get_)_ a dog._ = Quiero (obtener) un perro._
I want _(_to get_) a divorce. = Quiero (obtener) ¿el? divorcio. [¿Porque es el único divorcio de que se trata?]

Sorry I don't know enough about Spanish articles to properly compare usage here.

This usage is right in front of us. There must be a reason behind it, a reason that explains it and backs it up. Otherwise, there is no reason behind it and it is like a Hollywood back-lot street full of fronts of houses with no real houses behind them. (¿Se dice "debe de haber un razón" y "No hay razón" sin artículo, o qué?)


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## ampurdan

Forero said:


> _There is a dog under the sofa._ = Hay un perro bajo el sofá. [¿Correcto?]
> _There will be an end to this marriage._ = _ [¿Cómo se dice en español?]
> 
> _There is no dog under the sofa._ = No hay perro bajo el sofá.
> _There will be no end to this marriage._ = _ [¿Cómo se dice?]
> 
> _I want _(_to get_)_ a dog._ = Quiero (obtener) un perro._
> I want _(_to get_) a divorce. = Quiero (obtener) ¿el? divorcio. [¿Porque es el único divorcio de que se trata?]



Habrá un final para este matrimonio.

No habrá final para este matrimonio.

Quiero obtener el divorcio. Reason (I think): they can get no other divorce, but the one which puts an end to their marriage.


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## elianecanspeak

They could get a divorce in Mexico, or Reno, or at home.  They don't really care which it is to be, just as long as it finishes this interminable marriage.  *Any* legal divorce will do. They just want *a* divorce.


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## Bandama

In fact, in Spanish (maybe a language less accustomed to the term "divorce" than English ) we don't use this word to refer to the ceremony (*an* act), but to *the* institution. In this sense, the word "divorce" is used in the same way as "perdón", "absolución", "custodia", "manutención" and other similar words which don't take the indefinite article.

"Quiero *el* perdón/*la* absolución de mis pecados"

"Le dieron *la* custodia al padre, pero es él quien tiene que encargarse en exclusiva de *la* manutención"


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## elianecanspeak

It makes perfect sense to me that in Spanish  the definite article is used, for all of the reasons stated on this thread.  It also makes perfect sense why the indefinite article is used in English (also or all the reasons stated on this thread).  The words "divorce" and "divorcio" have similar, but not identical meanings.

But Ampuran's original question was about the _*English*_ usage of the terms "divorce", and why in *English* it took the definite article in the instances that it does.

The English and Spanish uses are not logically opposed; they address slightly different concepts, as all of us have pointed out in such an illuminating fashion.  I will always remember and understand the difference after participating in this thread.


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## acher

The difference between "a divorce" and "the divorce" in English is that the second refers to a specific divorce, a divorce "en concreto." "Divorce" is the institution/legal process. "A divorce" is what you get or want to separate from a husband or wife. "The divorce" would be a reference to an act in progress or in the past. Ya esta.


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## ampurdan

Thank you very much for all your answers. I've come to think that it's true that we Spanish-speaking people think about it as a legal institution and English speakers consider it more a specific act in this situation, as many of you have suggested and Bandama has summarized very well.

I don't think it's as easy as that, though. We could say "quiero una/la declaración de divorcio". Both are correct in this situation (one spouse talking to the other spouse about their divorce).

By the way: could they say "their divorce" if they haven't still got a divorce?


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## sound shift

ampurdan said:


> By the way: could they say "their divorce" if they haven't still got a divorce?


Yes: it would be possible to say "Their divorce hasn't come through yet".


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## elianecanspeak

I agree with sound shift (above).


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## Juan Nadie

ampurdan said:


> This usage of the indefinite article puzzles me: "I want *a* divorce". Context: one spouse tells the other that he wants to put a legal end to their married life.
> 
> En castellano, decimos "quiero el divorcio".



Me voy a permitir saltarme el resto de comentarios por esta vez.
Cuando lo he leído he pensado lo mismo, y tras leer el otro hilo de ampurdan, llego a la conclusión de que para que me resulte más 'cómodo' aceptar esa *a*, tengo que pensar que la frase es:
I want an act of divorce 
Y que el uso hace que resulte en:
I want a divorce.

(this trick really helps, at least when you don't know what else you can do)


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## Oso De Peluche

de acuerdo con ampurdam.No es una traducciòn literal.Es la expresiòn y en castellano:Quiero el divorcioAnd he put it in the right context


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## Milton Sand

Hi,
Well guys, we should focus on the subject rather than the use of pronominal verbs' infinitives as nouns, which is quite normal.


Juan Nadie said:


> Me voy a permitir saltarme el resto de comentarios por esta vez.
> Cuando lo he leído he pensado lo mismo, y tras leer el otro hilo de ampurdan, llego a la conclusión de que para que me resulte más 'cómodo' aceptar esa *a*, tengo que pensar que la frase es:
> I want an act of divorce
> Y que el uso hace que resulte en:
> I want a divorce.
> 
> (this trick really helps, at least when you don't know what else you can do)


Ampurdan, creo que Juan Nadie estaba logrando un enfoque. Yo lo veo más o menos como él. Al parecer es una diferencia de sentidos: tal vez *"divorce" se trata de un proceso* mientras que *"divorcio" se trata de una decisión o un resultado*.

En español no decimos tan gratuitamente: "Quiero *el* proceso de divorcio", se necesita un contexto apropiado. En cambio decimos con facilidad: "Quiero *un* proceso de divorcio", sin necesidad de un contexto.

A veces diremos: "Quiero *un* divorcio pacífico", considerando que el tal divorcio pueda tomar otras características. Aquí sí tomamos "divorcio" como proceso, no como resultado. ¿Cómo te suena esto: "Quiero *el* divorcio pacífico"? Dan ganas de responder: "Yo me quedo con el divorcio divertido". 

Con todo lo leído aquí, pensé que difícilmente se oiría "I want *the* divorce". Pero Google me muestra casi 780 000 resultados que no son pocos ante los 910 000 aciertos de "I want *a* divorce".

¿Logré darte alguna pista?


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## elianecanspeak

Juan Nadie said:


> Cuando lo he leído he pensado lo mismo, y tras leer el otro hilo de ampurdan, llego a la conclusión de que para que me resulte más 'cómodo' aceptar esa *a*, tengo que pensar que la frase es:
> I want an act of divorce
> Y que el uso hace que resulte en:
> I want a divorce.
> 
> (this trick really helps, at least when you don't know what else you can do)



I do like this memory aid, but we English speakers need something that works in the opposite direction.

"Quiero un [??? d]el divorcio."


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## Juan Nadie

elianecanspeak said:


> I do like this memory aid, but we English speakers need something that works in the opposite direction.
> 
> "Quiero un [??? d]el divorcio."


I am not sure about I can help with this. Probably English speakers would do a better job.

Maybe
I want an act of divorce -- Quiero un acta de divorcio -- and then change the 'de' with 'del' to 'el'.
Quiero los papeles de divorcio -- I want the papers for a divorce // the-el.
Quiero un abogado para el divorcio.


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## Milton Sand

Maybe what I wrote in my post (#39 in this thread) can help you.


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