# въезд



## C.S.Hy

I listened to forvo.com and fell most people were directly saying въезд as "вьезд". And some people seem to say съёмка as "сьёмка".

Is what I felt the truth?


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## Awwal12

C.S.Hy said:


> I listened to forvo.com and fell most people were directly saying въезд as "вьезд". And some people seem to say съёмка as "сьёмка".
> 
> Is what I felt the truth?


Absolutely. Most consonants aren't contrasted by softness before /й/; usually they're automatically palatalized (as long as they can, that is; /ц/, /ш/ and /ж/ obviously don't). The only consonants which are quite consistently contrasted by softness before /й/ are /т/ vs. /тʲ/ and /д/ vs. /дʲ/.


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## Saltie

C.S.Hy said:


> I listened to forvo.com and fell most people were directly saying въезд as "вьезд". And some people seem to say съёмка as "сьёмка".
> 
> Is what I felt the truth?


I find it equally normal to pronounce "въезд" as "въезд" or "вьезд", even though the latter can be heard less often, but it sounds absolutely ridiculous to pronounce "съёмка" as "сьёмка". If it was pronounced by a native speaker, I don't think you heard it right, unless the speaker intended to sound ridiculous.


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## Awwal12

Saltie said:


> but it sounds absolutely ridiculous to pronounce "съёмка" as "сьёмка"


Search for "съемка портрета обычному человеку" on YouTube, for instance. The speaker (Мария Павловская) pronounces the word with clear [sʲ] most of the time. Curiously, both [sʲ] and [s(ˠ)] can occur randomly  before /j/ in the same word for the same speaker.


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## Saltie

Well, I've just listened to the video long enough to hear the word three times and the sound in question was always hard. Which didn't surprise me.

PS
I've just listened to both speakers on forvo, they pronounce the hard 'съ', not the soft 'сь'


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## nizzebro

I'd say these cъё and сьё are neither hard nor soft but something in between. Full initial palatalization on /с/ would lead to intermediate vowel like  /и/ ; absence of palatalization is also impossible due to the subsequent /j/, it would only create some back sound like /э/ or /ы/.


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## Awwal12

I wonder how palatalization of a sibilant (which can be drawled indefinitely with no change of quality) can produce some vowel...


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## nizzebro

Well, just try to pronounce it quickly with the back of your tongue lifted more than usual and съёмка turns into сёмка or сиомка. Maybe it is not accurate to call that 'degree of palatalization' though, anyway that was what I meant.

In principle, I think all those differences  among speakers are due to their individual manner, or physical characteristics. As that with [v'j] - some of them have, say, their lower lip a bit sticking out so that timbre changes a bit.


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## C.S.Hy

nizzebro said:


> I'd say these cъё and сьё are neither hard nor soft but something in between. Full initial palatalization on /с/ would lead to intermediate vowel like  /и/ ; absence of palatalization is also impossible due to the subsequent /j/, it would only create some back sound like /э/ or /ы/.


I've got quite some difficulties cleared with the help of Russian speakers. Thank you very much!

Dare I say, in casual fast speech съ in съёмка and въ in въезд are palatalized by the following iotated vowels, although not as much palatalized as сь in сьедать and вь in вьюга.

As  for "……intermediate vowel like  /и/ " and  "……some back sound like /э/ or /ы/", I think they're so-termed "slide-offs" (usually considerably short non-syllabic vowels/ɘ, ɘ̠, ɘ̟, ə/, especially before pauses).

Isolated voiceless frictives and aspirated voiceless stops may be made without a glide-off, if you are making them rather long; but unaspirated voiceless stops can hardly be made without a glide-off. (Russian п, т and к are optionally unaspirated or slightly aspirated).

I found people often say some Russian words ending in -и before pauses as /ɪᵊ/(quite like/ɪə/) and once consulted about that on the net, but even those who themselves pronounced that way had denied the short /ə/ sound. Finally I made out that it was the glide-off that was confusing me.


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## Saltie

C.S.Hy said:


> Dare I say, in casual fast speech съ in съёмка and въ in въезд are palatalized by the following iotated vowels, although not as much palatalized as сь in сьедать and вь in вьюга.


вьюга is written with a 'ь' letter which shows that the previous sound 'в' ('вь') is "officially" soft, but it can also be pronounced as a hard consonant 'в' ('въ'), both are acceptable and normal.

съедать is written with a 'ъ' letter and is always pronounced as a hard consonant. If you say it as a soft consonant, it sounds as if you're mocking someone who can't pronounce it correctly. 

I don't know any rules about that, I'm not a teacher of the Russian language, I can only tell you how I and other people pronounce this or that particular word.


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## Saltie

nizzebro said:


> I'd say these cъё and сьё are neither hard nor soft but something in between.


I'm afraid I don't agree with you there.


nizzebro said:


> Full initial palatalization on /с/ would lead to intermediate vowel like  /и/ ; absence of palatalization is also impossible due to the subsequent /j/, it would only create some back sound like /э/ or /ы/.


Try to pronounce the name of the country "Сьерра-Леоне". Some people say its first part as "сь-йэ-ра", and some as "съ-йэ-ра", I'm not sure which one is officially considered correct, and I'm not even sure which one I would choose if I had to say in spontaneously. Anyway, you can clearly feel that in both cases you have no difficulty in clearly pronouncing 'йэ' after the first consonant, be it soft or hard, and the consonant is clearly either soft or hard, depending on which way you want to pronounce it.


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## nizzebro

C.S.Hy said:


> I found people often say some Russian words ending in -и before pauses as /ɪᵊ/(quite like/ɪə/) and once consulted about that on the net, but even those who themselves pronounced that way had denied the short /ə/ sound. Finally I made out that it was the glide-off that was confusing me.


That is really the case - as one relaxes muscles yet before the airflow fully fades - otherwise you had to keep the tongue near the palate for some time after the word has been fully pronounced already.

I have tried to record myself pronouncing съёмка and indeed it softens in general, but in the phrase 'за последующей съёмкой...'   sounds quite 'hard' - I hope I did not that intentionally.


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## nizzebro

Saltie said:


> Try to pronounce the name of the country "Сьерра-Леоне". Some people say its first part as "сь-йэ-ра", and some as "съ-йэ-ра", I'm not sure which one is officially considered correct, and I'm not even sure which one I would choose if I had to say in spontaneously. Anyway, you can clearly feel that in both cases you have no difficulty in clearly pronouncing 'йэ' after the first consonant, be it soft or hard, and the consonant is clearly either soft or hard, depending on which way you want to pronounce it.


I'm pretty sure the reason is not that it is the first consonant but that it is a word you do not use as an everyday one - you are separating it. Try to pronounce it among other words but with a decent tempo - it would get soft then.


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## Saltie

I doesn't matter how fast I'm speaking. I just have to choose which way to say it, and I might choose either one. It's clearly soft or hard. If I choose to say it as a hard consonant, it remains hard. So, let's agree to disagree )


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## nizzebro

Saltie said:


> and I might choose either one


This is the point actually, but I think it would be more accurate to say 'as long as I can choose'


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## C.S.Hy

nizzebro said:


> I have tried to record myself pronouncing съёмка and indeed it softens in general, but in the phrase 'за последующей съёмкой...'   sounds quite 'hard' - I hope I did not that intentionally.


I think the difference comes from the positions. The consonant cluster …йсъ… in the given phrase, (or rather an intonation/thought word group, a series of consecutive sounds without a compulsory prominent pause or interruption between any adjacent sounds), can be put either into the former or the latter syllable, or be separated and put into two syllables. If you take the first, the съ sound will come as the auslaut of the former syllable instead of as the anlaut in an isolated съемка, hence the difference.


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## nizzebro

C.S.Hy said:


> If you take the first, the съ sound will come as the auslaut of the former syllable instead of as the anlaut in an isolated съемка, hence the difference.


Indeed. I guess the reason for that separation is that both й and сь narrow the passage and weaken the airflow so that й+сь+й consumes all the energy; I'm literally unable to produce this cluster.


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