# left on a Monday



## grammar-in-use

Hello,

I made these two sentences myself, without context:

a. He left on Monday and returned two days later.

b. He left on *a *Monday and returned two days later.

To me, "a" expresses the recent Monday previous to now (say, today is Friday), while "b" expresses some Monday in the past, irrelevant to now.
Am I correct?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## london calling

'A Monday' could be any Monday in the past.


----------



## grammar-in-use

london calling said:


> 'A Monday' could be any Monday in the past.



Thank you for your replies. Suppose today is Friday and he left on Monday this week, can we say "He left on* a* Monday" in this case?


----------



## exgerman

grammar-in-use said:


> Thank you for your replies. Suppose today is Friday and he left on Monday this week, can we say "He left on* a* Monday" in this case?


NO. The indefinite article in _a Monday_ tells your hearer that you don't know which specific Monday is meant.

As LC said, a Monday could be any Monday in the past.


----------



## grammar-in-use

exgerman said:


> NO. The indefinite article in _a Monday_ tells your hearer that you don't know which specific Monday is meant.
> 
> As LC said, a Monday could be any Monday in the past.



Thank you. I think so. On the other hand, I'd think "a Monday" could also be any Monday in the* future*, right?


----------



## exgerman

grammar-in-use said:


> Thank you. I think so. On the other hand, I'd think "a Monday" could also be any Monday in the* future*, right?


not with a past-tense verb


----------



## lingobingo

You can never use “a Monday” to mean a specific Monday. It has the “indefinite” article. But you can use it to mean any Monday in the past, present or future.

He left on a Monday but was back by the Friday [of the same week]. (which Monday or which week is not specified)
She does the washing on a Monday and the cleaning on a Tuesday. (referring to a regular routine)
They will have to set off on a Saturday because that’s the only day the ferry goes to their destination.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Thank you very much. I love your example sentences, which are very enlightening.

This sentence is from the Oxford dictionary:

You wouldn’t catch me working (=I would never work) on *a* Sunday! 

I guess "a Sunday" here also refers to a regular routine, right?


----------



## lingobingo

Yes. (Or perhaps a lack of routine, if the person would never work on a Sunday! )


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> Yes. (Or perhaps a lack of routine, if the person would never work on a Sunday! )



Yeah, definitely, you're right, I really appreciate your help.


----------



## zaffy

lingobingo said:


> She does the washing on a Monday and the cleaning on a Tuesday. (referring to a regular routine)



I guess we could also say 'on Mondays' and 'on Tuesdays' in that example, right? Which option would most natives choose? In Polish only the plural forms work.


----------



## lingobingo

Those examples were to demonstrate the use of the indefinite article in this context. But yes, there are other ways of describing a weekly routine; for example, by saying that you do a particular thing *on Mondays*, or *every Monday*.


----------



## kentix

Here's a line from the movie "Forrest Gump".

Forrest is at the grave of his beloved Jenny and is talking to her.

"You died on a Saturday morning."

Of course, he knows the exact day she died. But the exact date is not important. What sticks in his mind is that it was a Saturday*. Saturday has a different feel than a weekday. In his mind it's more memorable than a specific number.

* to complicate things, according to discussion sites, she actually died on a Monday but he remembers it as a Saturday in his mind


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> Those examples were to demonstrate the use of the indefinite article in this context. But yes, there are other ways of describing a weekly routine; for example, by saying that you do a particular thing *on Mondays*, or *every Monday*.


Is "*on Monday*" used either to describe *a weekly routine* (meaning "on Mondays" in this case) or to specify *a particular Monday in the past or future *(meaning a specific Monday relative to the time of speaking)?


----------



## lingobingo

Out of context, “I do such-and-such on Monday” could mean either “I’ve arranged to do that on Monday of next week” or “I’m in the habit of doing that on Monday [of every week]”.


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> a. He left on Monday and returned two days later.


This would _usually_ mean the last Monday but not necessarily; context could make a difference.


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> Out of context, “I do such-and-such on Monday” could mean either “I’ve arranged to do that on Monday of next week” or “I’m in the habit of doing that on Monday [of every week]”.


Thanks. I get it.

Here's a sentence from the Oxford dictionary:
I went to Paris *on Thursday*, and came back the following Monday.

So, "on Thursday" here refers to the past Thursday, doesn't it? If so, why does the writer say "the following Monday"?
I don't quite understand the context for it. When is the speaking of time? For example, now is Wednesday?
The time line could be:
Thursday (went to Paris) --- Monday (came back) --- Tuesday or Wednesday (speaking time)

What if the speaking time is the following Friday? Like:
Thursday (went to Paris) --- Monday (came back) --- *Friday* (speaking time)
In which case there would be two Thursdays before the speaking time of Friday. How should I say the sentence in this time line?


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> So, "on Thursday" here refers to the past Thursday, doesn't it?


Probably, but not necessarily. As I said above, context could make a difference.


grammar-in-use said:


> If so, why does the writer say "the following Monday"?


It means the first Monday after that Thursday, or the first Monday to follow that Thursday.


grammar-in-use said:


> When is the speaking of time? For example, now is Wednesday?
> The time line could be:
> Thursday (went to Paris) --- Monday (came back) --- Tuesday or Wednesday (speaking time)


The time of speaking (not "the speaking of time") can only be after the "following Monday", because the following Monday is obviously in the past.


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> In which case there would be two Thursdays before the speaking time of Friday. How should I say the sentence in this time line?


Sentences aren't spoken in isolation. The context would make it clear which Thursday was meant. 

_On 19 July 2015, a Sunday, he decided to go to Paris. He left on Thursday and returned the following Monday._

Context tells you Thursday is 23 July 2015, and the following Monday is 27 July 2015. The person who said this could have said it on any date after 27 July 2015, including yesterday, 3 August 2020.


----------



## lingobingo

I’m going to Paris on Thursday (of this week) and coming back *next* Monday.
I went to Paris on Thursday (of last week) and came back *on* Monday (of this week).
I went to Paris on Thursday (of some week in the past) and came back *the following* Monday.


----------



## kentix

Barque said:


> It means the first Monday after that Thursday, or the first Monday to follow that Thursday.




He could have come back the next Monday after that, or the one after that or the one six Mondays after that Thursday. "The following Monday" tells you it was the very next one.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Barque said:


> This would _usually_ mean *the last Monday* but not necessarily; context could make a difference.


If it does not mean "the last Monday" but "some previous Monday" (of, say, years ago), how would you say it? (He left on *a/the* Monday and returned two days later???)


----------



## Barque

Both are possible, depending on what was said earlier--context. It could also work without an article. Without context, it's difficult to identify the right choice, and even then there may be multiple ones. It's usually possible to say something in several different ways in English.


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> (1). I’m going to Paris on Thursday (of this week) and coming back *next* Monday.
> (2). I went to Paris on Thursday (of last week) and came back *on* Monday (of this week).
> (3). I went to Paris *on Thursday* (of some week in the past) and came back *the following* Monday.


Thank you very much! It did clarify my confusion. So, the "*on Thursday*" in (3) is not likely to mean "last Thursday", is it?
The phrase "the following Monday" leads me to locate the whole situation in the distant past, not the recent past as in (2).


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> So, the "*on Thursday*" in (3) is not likely to mean "last Thursday", is it?


It can mean that. No, because of "the following Monday", but it could mean the Thursday before the last one. If it was last Thursday, "the following Monday" wouldn't be used as that would be Monday of the current week.
It can also mean some Thursday in the distant past.


grammar-in-use said:


> The phrase "the following Monday" leads me to locate the whole situation in the distant past, not the recent past as in (2).


It could be as recent as last Monday (the Monday of the previous week). It just means the first Monday after the Thursday referred to.


----------



## Barque

Sorry, I typed too fast and had to make some edits. Please read the post now.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Barque said:


> It can mean that. No, because of "the following Monday", but it could mean the Thursday before the last one. If it was last Thursday, "the following Monday" wouldn't be used as that would be Monday of the current week.
> It can also mean some Thursday in the distant past.
> 
> It could be as recent as last Monday (the Monday of the previous week). It just means the first Monday after the Thursday referred to.


Yeah, I see your point. I agree. Thank you so much for your great patience and insights. I really appreciate your help.
(One last request, if I can make, could you possibly give me an example of "on *the* Thursday" or "on *the* Monday"?)


----------



## grammar-in-use

kentix said:


> Here's a line from the movie "Forrest Gump".
> 
> Forrest is at the grave of his beloved Jenny and is talking to her.
> 
> "You died on a Saturday morning."
> 
> Of course, he knows the exact day she died. But the exact date is not important. What sticks in his mind is that it was a Saturday*. Saturday has a different feel than a weekday. In his mind it's more memorable than a specific number.
> 
> * to complicate things, according to discussion sites, she actually died on a Monday but he remembers it as a Saturday in his mind


Thank you very much, Kentix. You've always been very helpful.


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> (He left on *a/the* Monday and returned two days later???)


_He went to Paris on Saturday. Then he left on the Monday for London and returned two days later._
This means he left for London on the first Monday after he reached Paris.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Barque said:


> _He went to Paris on Saturday. Then he left on the Monday for London and returned two days later._
> This means he left for London on the first Monday after he reached Paris.


Thanks. I would probably locate the whole situation in the distant past, not within the current one week or two.
If it was in the latter case, I would probably say something like (suppose today is Thursday):
_He went to Paris *last Saturday*. Then he left *on Monday* for London and returned yesterday._
In this case, we don't need to say "on *the* Monday", do we? 
(To my understanding, "on Monday" has a different time reference point from "on the Monday".)


----------



## natkretep

lingobingo said:


> Yes. (Or perhaps a lack of routine, if the person would never work on a Sunday! )


Or perhaps another routine (day with the family, church activities etc). You know the old song 'Never on a Sunday' (Petula Clark - Never On A Sunday Lyrics | AZLyrics.com)?


> Or you can kiss me on a Wednesday, a Thursday,
> A Friday and Saturday is best;
> But never ever on a Sunday, a Sunday, a Sunday
> 'Cause that's my day of rest.


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> In this case, we don't need to say "on *the* Monday", do we?


You don't _need_ to. You can, to mean the Monday that followed.


grammar-in-use said:


> (To my understanding, "on Monday" has a different time reference point from "on the Monday".)


I haven't followed this.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Barque said:


> I haven't followed this.


It is my understanding that "on Monday" usually means a particular day relative to now, while "on *the* Monday" expresses a specific day relative to another time in context (but not to now).


----------



## Forero

natkretep said:


> Or perhaps another routine (day with the family, church activities etc). You know the old song 'Never on a Sunday' (Petula Clark - Never On A Sunday Lyrics | AZLyrics.com)?


The name of the song is "Never on Sunday", with no article.


----------



## natkretep

Forero said:


> The name of the song is "Never on Sunday", with no article.


My apologies. I was thinking of the lyrics, and the page that I linked too also indicated 'Never on a Sunday' as the title. That's interesting in relation to this thread, because I think 'Never on a Sunday' and 'Never on Sunday' mean the same thing.


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> while "on *the* Monday" expresses a specific day relative to another time in context (but not to now).


My example uses "on the Monday" that way.


----------



## zaffy

kentix said:


> "You died on a Saturday morning."



But isn't a different use? I mean here the 'a' refers to the 'morning', not to 'Saturday', doesn't it?


----------



## lingobingo

I think the way days and weeks are referred to varies between American and British English, but in terms of what we say in the UK… 

The definite article implies what it always does – a specific Monday (or whatever other named day or month), in the sense of the Monday of the week in question. It’s only used in relation to a particular week (or year), whether that’s in the past or the future.

In July 2012 he joined Cardiff Blues but in the November he returned to London Welsh, who were then competing in the Premiership.​During the festival there are/will be events every day, culminating in a grand street parade on the Saturday.​


----------



## zaffy

So could you please tell me whether or not you would use articles here? Would that be a BE/AE thing?

A: We spent a fantastic weekend in Paris a few years ago.
B: Did you visit the Eiffel Tower?
A: Sure, but it was a mistake to do it on ____ Sunday. It was so busy. Much busier than ___Saturday. 
B: So why didn't you go there on ____Saturday?
A: Well, I just didn't know ___Saturday was a better option.


----------



## lingobingo

It was a mistake to do it on the Sunday [of that week]. 

But otherwise, you just use whatever best expresses what you mean. 
It was much busier than a Saturday [normally is].​It was much busy than the Saturday [had been].​


----------



## zaffy

And would any of those work with no article?


----------



## lingobingo

There’s no sensible answer to that – especially since you’re talking about ad hoc dialogue, in which all combinations could be used, depending on who’s speaking. If it’s clear which Saturday or Sunday is meant, it might well be referred to without a determiner. There’s no rule.


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> The definite article implies what it always does – a specific Monday (or whatever other named day or month), in the sense of the Monday of the week in question. It’s only used in relation to a particular week (or year), whether that’s in the past or the future.


Good point!   


lingobingo said:


> In July 2012 he joined Cardiff Blues but *in the November* he returned to London Welsh, who were then competing in the Premiership.


In this context, is "in November" fine?


lingobingo said:


> During the festival there are/will be events every day, culminating in a grand street parade *on the Saturday*.


Likewise, can we use "on Saturday" here? (It wouldn't sound natural, would it?)


----------



## lingobingo

The definite article can always be omitted if it’s clear from the context that a specific day is meant. But we don’t have much context for those examples. 

In the second, it’s only the presence of that definite article that tells us (or at least leads us to assume) that it’s a week-long festival. And in the first, “in November” would be ambigiuous.


----------



## zaffy

And could you tell me why in this nursery rhyme, we've got 'a' before Monday only?

Solomon Grundy, 
Born on* a* Monday, 
Christened on Tuesday, 
Married on Wednesday,
Took ill on Thursday,
Grew worse on Friday,
Died on Saturday,
Buried on Sunday,


----------



## lingobingo

I’m sure you can work that out for yourself?

What day of the week were you born on? I was born on a Tuesday (as opposed to any of the other 6 days of the week).

But in that humorous rhyme, Solomon Grundy’s other life events are intentionally presented as though they all happened in the _same_ week as the one that began on that Monday.


----------



## pob14

Also, and perhaps just as importantly, the line “Born on Monday” would be one syllable short.


----------



## lingobingo

Quite.


----------



## elroy

lingobingo said:


> She does the washing on a Monday and the cleaning on a Tuesday. (referring to a regular routine)





zaffy said:


> I guess we could also say 'on Mondays' and 'on Tuesdays' in that example, right? Which option would most natives choose?


 I would only say “(on) Mondays/Tuesdays.”  lingobingo’s version sounds wrong to me. 


lingobingo said:


> Out of context, “I do such-and-such on Monday” could mean either “I’ve arranged to do that on Monday of next week” or “I’m in the habit of doing that on Monday [of every week]”.


 Again, for the latter meaning, I would say “(on) Mondays.”


----------



## grammar-in-use

lingobingo said:


> During the festival there are/will be events every day, culminating in a grand street parade *on the Saturday*.
> it’s only the presence of that definite article that tells us (or at least leads us to assume) that it’s *a week-long festival*.


In other words, the use of "*on Saturday*", instead of "on the Saturday", would (probably) lead people to assume that the festival will last *more than a week*. Am I right?


----------



## lingobingo

I really can’t say what people would assume. it would depend largely on how much they already knew about the subject.


----------



## zaffy

Say I'm talking about a distant past. Are these ok?

A: What day was your granddad's brother born on?
B: On *a* Monday, but he passed away on *the* Wednsday.
A: Oh, did he live just two days?
B: He did, sadly.


A: Do you know on what days your grandad's brother was born and died?
B: Well, to the best of my knowledge, he was born on *a* Monday, and died on *a* Wednesday at the age of 78.


----------



## lingobingo

Yes, they both work (unlikely though the first one is!).


----------



## Barque

grammar-in-use said:


> In other words, the use of "*on Saturday*", instead of "on the Saturday", would (probably) lead people to assume that the festival will last *more than a week*. Am I right?


No.


----------



## grammar-in-use

Barque said:


> No.


Thank you. So, do you think "on Saturday" is the same meaning as "on *the* Saturday" in this case?


----------



## Barque

We don't have background beyond a single sentence. Whatever was said earlier may indicate that they both mean the same, or they may not. I was merely answering your question on whether it would _probably_ lead people to assume that the festival would last more than a week. We have no way of knowing. Logic tells us that festivals rarely last more than a week, but the sentence doesn't.


----------



## zaffy

This Brit has moved to the US and he made this video about AE/BE differences. He mentioned BE's "go to hospital" and AE's "go to the hospital" and then he said that the Brits drop the 'the' before hospital, but they would instead add 'the' before days, giving this example "I'll meet you at hospital on the Wednesday". I'm confused. Did he mean some Wednesday in the future, that is, not this coming one?


----------



## Barque

The context will tell the listener what's meant. If they'd referred to Monday, 14th September, and he then said "the Wednesday", it'd mean 16th September.


----------



## zaffy

I see, but I would imagine AE speakers would say the same thing, wouldn't they? So I wonder why he pointed that out as a AE/BE thing.


----------



## Barque

zaffy said:


> but I would imagine AE speakers would say the same thing, wouldn't they?


I don't know. Perhaps they don't? Let's wait for an American to comment.


----------



## zaffy

So if I'm now making some arrangements for the future, say a holiday in June, I would say this, right? 

"We will arrive in London on *a* Monday and then, on *th*e Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool."


----------



## Forero

I hope I speak for all AmE speakers when I say that we would never say "the Wednesday" except where there is something else modifying Wednesday (e.g. "the next Wednesday", "the Wednesday after that").


----------



## zaffy

Forero said:


> I hope I speak for all AmE speakers when I say that we would never say "the Wednesday" except where there is something else modifying Wednesday (e.g. "the next Wednesday", "the Wednesday after that").



So would you remove both articles from #61?


----------



## Myridon

What's the rest of the sentence?
I'll meet you at the hospital on the Wednesday it's convenient for you.  could work.


----------



## zaffy

Myridon said:


> What's the rest of the sentence?


He didn't give the rest. He just gave that example.


----------



## Myridon

Does the sentence end with "it's"?  I really wouldn't want to say anything without hearing it myself.


----------



## zaffy

I'll send you the link as I can't paste it here. When will the rules change?


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Not in my language it wouldn't. It would mean that Saturday was the last day of a festival that lasted a few days before.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Don't take any notice of that video.  It's not worth worrying about. There may be regional differences, who knows. But talking about the following day of the week, most people would use the day name without an article.

Today is Friday: I having a zoom meeting with my friends in NYC on Sunday.
I don't remember what year my mother died, but it was on a Christmas Day.
I think this is a really advanced point about colloquial language and your students don't need to worry about it. So long as if there's any doubt in their mind they ask for the date.


----------



## PaulQ

*1. I must go to Manchester on Saturday – I hear they have a good market*. > The speaker is referring to a Saturday of which the listener is aware.

*2. I must go to Manchester on a Saturday – I hear they have a good market.* > Manchester has markets every Saturday. (A Saturday = an example of a Saturday)

*3. I go to Manchester on Saturdays. Habitual; every Saturday.

4. “Saturdays1, I go to Manchester" * Habitual; every Saturday.

*5. I am in Manchester from the 1st until the 10th: I must go to the market on the Saturday* > That Saturday that falls between the 1st and the 10th, i.e. the Saturday during my stay.

*6. I stayed in Manchester for two months but on the Saturdays, I always went to Liverpool.* (Each of the Saturdays during those two months.)

1.” (Adverbial genitive English possessive - Wikipedia


> Another remnant of the Old English genitive is the adverbial genitive, where the ending s (without apostrophe) forms adverbs of time: ***nowadays** *[= now, of a day]*, closed ***Sundays** *[= of a Sunday]**. There is a literary periphrastic form using of, as in **of a summer day**. There are also forms in -ce, [Note the sound = “/s/”] from genitives of number and place: once, twice, thrice; whence, hence, thence.


----------



## zaffy

Thanks Paul. Great examples. And does #61 work for you?


----------



## PaulQ

Yes, it does. It is a combined  example of 2 and 5 above.


----------



## Forero

In my AmE:

_We will arrive in London on a Monday and then, on the Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool.
We will arrive in London on a Monday and then, the next Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool.
We will arrive in London on a Monday and then, that Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool._


----------



## lingobingo

A definite article used before a day of the week indicates that you mean that day in the particular week under discussion. It serves the same purpose as usual – making the reference specific rather than general.


----------



## kentix

During the festival there are/will be events every day, *culminating* in a grand street parade *on the Saturday*.



grammar-in-use said:


> In other words, the use of "*on Saturday*", instead of "on the Saturday", would (probably) lead people to assume that the festival will last *more than a week*. Am I right?


No, because you are overlooking what we call "the elephant in the room". That means a huge fact that shouldn't be ignored but that no one has mentioned.

The word culminating means ending, basically, or coming to an end. So the sentence tells you directly the festival is ending on Saturday. It doesn't matter what the wording is ("on Saturday"/"on the Saturday") the word culminating removes all doubt. Saturday is the last day.


----------



## kentix

Forero said:


> We will arrive in London on a Monday and then, that Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool.


I was about to say the same thing about this example.



zaffy said:


> A: What day was your granddad's brother born on?
> B: On *a* Monday, but he passed away (on) *the that* Wednsday.



Although I will say I think _there are_ uses for (or users of) the "the" form in American English.


----------



## PaulQ

kentix said:


> During the festival there are/will be events every day, *culminating* in a grand street parade *on the Saturday*.


Even if you change "culminating to "with", "on the Saturday" = _(i) on the only Saturday that is included in the festival_ or, _(ii) on the (=that) Saturday that I have previously mentioned, _or _(iii) on the (=that) Saturday of which we are both aware._




Forero said:


> We will arrive in London on a Monday and then, on the Wednesday, we will visit Liverpool.


This is perfectly normal in BE = the Wednesday of the week in which the previously mentioned Monday falls, or the Wednesday that follows the Monday. 

"Today's Tuesday, I'll start the job on my own on the Friday; on the Monday, the plasterer will arrive; the electrician will be there on the Wednesday and I will have finished on the Thursday."


----------

