# Of shallots and spring onions



## natkretep

I was watching the Julia Child DVD _The French Chef_ last night and was struck be how she pronounced _shallot_. I was only familiar with the pronunciation with the stress on the second syllable /ʃəˈlɒt/. She had the stress on the first syllable /'∫ælət/. Can I check with AE speakers if this pronunciation is common?

The other thing that surprised me was that she said that 'spring onions' were a possible substitute if shallots were not available. Now I was under the impression that Americans said _scallions _ and that _spring onions_ was the BE term. But obviously the difference is not that clear cut. Can I again check with AE speakers if they say _spring onions_?


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## JamesM

I'm not a chef at all and I'm not the best at reading IPA, but if that's representation of shallot rhyming with "pallet" that's the way I would say it.

I'm not familiar with spring onions. I've heard scallions and green onions. I know only enough about cooking to be kept out of the kitchen for the safety of my family. 

(Shallots, by the way, are sometimes quite difficult to find, at least in my area.  I've had to find them for a couple of things I cooked and they are not a staple in our local grocery stores.)


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## sdgraham

I've only heard SHAL-lot, but M-W online accedes to both.


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## lablady

I agree with the previous posts. I do a lot of cooking with these things.  Shallot has the stress on the first syllable, and a good substitute would be scallions, or green onions. I haven't heard of spring onions.


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## natkretep

Thanks - that's very interesting. So SHALLot is a common AE pronunciation (and shalLOT is more BrE). The Julia Child DVD is from the 1960s so maybe 'spring onion' is the older AE term?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

natkretep said:


> Can I check with AE speakers if this pronunciation is common?


I would say that in American English it is the standard pronunciation. I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced with the accent on the second syllable.



> The other thing that surprised me was that she said that 'spring onions' were a possible substitute if shallots were not available. Now I was under the impression that Americans said _scallions _and that _spring onions_ was the BE term.


You were mistaken. Some of us Americans say "scallions", but some (and I am among them) say "green onions", and others say "spring onions". Note that it is always dangerous to make assumptions about what "Americans" say when compared to "the BE term", if for no other reason than there are six times as many of us as there are of speakers of BE, and so a variety of terms is far more likely in AE than in BE.


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## Adge

I've always called the weedy onions that grow in our yard "spring onions", and the ones you use to cook "green onions."  That being said, I decided to google it and found this link, which claims that scallions, green onions, and spring onions, are all names for the same plant harvested at different times.

And just to toss in my 5 cents, I agree with all the other AE speakers.  I always pronounce "shallot" with the accent on the first syllable.


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## ewie

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced with the accent on the second syllable.


(More amazement.  I don't think I've ever heard the word pronounced with the accent on the _first_ syllable.
Mind you, I'm about as interested in cookery as I am in, say, football ... which is to say _not one iota_.)


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## Rover_KE

I expect Tennyson's poem _The Lady of Shal*ott*_ influences the way we pronounce _shallott._

The metre of the poem allows of no other pronunciation.

Rover


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## natkretep

Adge said:


> I've always called the weedy onions that grow in our yard "spring onions", and the ones you use to cook "green onions."  That being said, I decided to google it and found this link, which claims that scallions, green onions, and spring onions, are all names for the same plant harvested at different times.



So Julia Child was actually referring to something that had a decided bulb at the bottom - which makes sense if you want a substitute for shallots. I don't think I've ever seen this before. What I have seen are things with just very slender bulbs - normal for East Asian food - which I would also call _spring onions_, and which your website calls _green onions_.

The AE pronunciation destroyed my little theory about how in AE the preference is to have the stress on the second syllable for bisyllabic French loan-words (bal-LET, buf-FET, ga-RAGE) in contrast to BrE (BAL-let, BUF-fet, GAR-age). But then again, maybe not, because the original French (échalote) contained three syllables.

Presumably, AE speakers say 'the Lady of Sha-LOTT' for Tennyson's poem?
_Ah, I see Rover has the same idea_


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## Brioche

Daniel Jones' "English pronouncing dictionary", an English publication, offers only one pronunciation for Shallot or shallot, with the stress on the second syllable.


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## cuchuflete

In this northeastern corner of AElandia, scallions are common.  Spring onions are the same thing named by visiting BE speakers.  Shallots have emphasis on the first syllable, and are nothing at all like scallions in appearance or flavor.



_Off-topic aside:  _We have multiplier onions in the herb garden (and wherever else they feel like growing), and I have no idea what relationship these have to the other alliums. They are also called top onion and Egyptian onions.  They look like scallions when starting new spring growth.  Allium cepa (proliferum group)/syn. A. cepa          var. viviparum

Picture and details


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## Esca

Definitely SHAL-lit. I've only heard sha-LOT on cooking shows with British or Aussie chefs.
I've never heard of spring onions. To me, green onions are the same thing as scallions. 
(Incidentally, I always say "green onions" when the topic arises. I'll admit that I'm afraid of mixing up the words "shallot" and "scallion," since they are very similar-sounding oniony words.)


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## ewie

My partner, who is as English as the day is long, calls spring onions (AE: _green onions_) _scallions_.  Not sure why.


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## Loob

I'm completely lost in this thread.  All I know is that I pronounce _shallots_ with the stress on the second syllable.

Oh, and I've never, quite, seen the point of _spring onions_.


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## timpeac

Loob said:


> I'm completely lost in this thread.  All I know is that I pronounce _shallots_ with the stress on the second syllable.
> 
> Oh, and I've never, quite, seen the point of _spring onions_.


Me too - and scallions is something I thought you went to the doctor for, so I've learnt something too!


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## panjandrum

Here is a terminology statement from my part of the world.

Scallions, spring onions and salad onions are picked and used while the leaves are fresh and green.  The fresh green leaves are eaten, along with the white bits.  I expect spring onions to have fatter white bits than scallions, and salad onions have fatter white bits than spring onions.
They are normally eaten raw.
What's the point of spring onions 
Like the others mentioned above, they are absolutely delicious and can be used in many different ways.

Sha_*l*__*lot*_s are significantly different in that like onions they are often kept until the leaves are dead and the outer skin is brown.
They are normally cooked.


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## ewie

The OED _(awww ~ bless!)_ has this for _scallion_:


> *a.* _U.S._ The shallot.    *b.* The Welsh onion or ‘chibol’.    *c.* An onion which fails to bulb but forms a long neck and strong blade; = _spring onion_


Not much the wiser for it, really.

I'm pretty much convinced that the term _salad onion_ is a supermarketing invention to try and get folks to eat more salad at times when folks don't feel inclined to eat salad (in the UK: 18th June > 29th May) ...


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## lablady

panjandrum said:


> What's the point of spring onions


They're for those people who intended to harvest scallions, but they waited too long. 


			
				natkretep said:
			
		

> Presumably, AE speakers say 'the Lady of Sha-LOTT' for Tennyson's poem?


Actually, yes. I have no difficulty differentiating between the lady and the plant. They aren't spelled the same.


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## cuchuflete

> *a.* _U.S._ The shallot.


  That must be for the date range provided by ewie.  At all other times of the year, scallions are greener, more tender, far less bulbous, and much less cooked than shallots.  The OED may have been correct a hundred years ago, but certainly that definition is not correct today.


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## JamesM

At our house we usually eat only the green tops of green onions, chopped and sprinkled over salads or baked potatoes.  (Now I'm getting hungry.)


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## ewie

cuchuflete said:


> The OED may have been correct a hundred years ago, but certainly not today.


That sounds about right.



JamesM said:


> At our house we usually eat only the green tops of green onions, chopped and sprinkled over salads or baked potatoes.


That partner of mine only uses the _white_ bits; I use the whole thing.


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## natkretep

ewie said:


> My partner, who is as English as the day is long, calls spring onions (AE: _green onions_) _scallions_.  Not sure why.



I've never heard an Englishman or an Englishwoman say scallion. Please do ask him why he says _scallions_ - pray do - I do watch a fair bit of British cookery programmes on BBC Lifestyle - _Masterchef_, James Martin, Gordon, Hugh, Jamie, etc.


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## ewie

Direct from the horse's mouth: "It's the Scottish word for them, isn't it?  Or is it Irish?  It's a nice word.  And spring onions only exist in Spring, like spring cabbage, whereas you get scallions all year round, like the ones we've got growing out the back at the moment.  I just think _spring_ onions are not well-named, they're inappropriately named.  And I'm _not_ a horse."


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## natkretep

Thanks, Ewie! He's certainly entitled to his point of view. And all of that verbatim.

What's that bit about not being a horse? Do stallions eat scallions?


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## panjandrum

I have always had the impression that scallion is Irish/Scottish.
The OED doesn't help with this theory, though it suggests that for some reason the name derives from Ashkelon, a coastal city in Israel.


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## ewie

panjandrum said:


> The OED suggests that for some reason the name derives from Ashkelon, a coastal city in Israel.


As does ~ apparently ~ _shallot_.  This is from my _Petit Robert_ (French dictionary), definition of *échalote ('shallot')*:


> originally _escaluigne_, 12thC; from Latin _ascalonia cepa _~ 'Ascalon onion'


('Scuse my French).


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## Nunty

The Romans apparently had a yen for Ashkelon onions. Click here and here, for example. I never knew that!

The second site adds: 





> The name, scallion, has no true horticultural or botanical standing. It is simply a type of shallot, but the name is frequently misapplied to any LGO (little green onion) pulled before the bulb formed.


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## natkretep

Thanks for that link to Ashkelon - which I never knew about.

The other thing I just found out is that what I call the spring onion is also known as the Welsh onion: see wikipedia. Another surprise for me, as I'd never heard the term before! Indeed, this site suggests that this is the normal term in England. I'm sure it's lying through its teeth.


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## ewie

natkretep said:


> this site suggests that this is the normal term in England


Maybe it means 'in _Wales_', Nat


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## Loob

panjandrum said:


> I have always had the impression that scallion is Irish/Scottish.


My _Concise Scots Dictionary _would agree with you, but only (if I'm reading the punctuation aright) when it doesn't mean "scallion": 





> *scallion* _n_ *1* = scallion _19-._ *2* a spring onion _la20-,_ _C[entral] Uls[ter Scots]_


I said I was lost in this thread.


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## xqby

Huh, I always had a fuzzy association between scallions and onions, but up until now I'd never bothered to figure out exactly what the former refers to. I tend to call them "green onions" or "leeks," pretty much interchangeably.


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## timpeac

Never heard of Welsh onions before personally.


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## ewie

Oh for heaven's sakes, XQ, don't bring _leeks_ into it! ~ we're all confused enough already


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## suzi br

ewie said:


> I'm pretty much convinced that the term _salad onion_ is a supermarketing invention to try and get folks to eat more salad at times when folks don't feel inclined to eat salad (in the UK: 18th June > 29th May) ...


 
Ah, how wise you are, ewie -- you must be right.  thre weeks of salad eating is plenty!


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## Aaar

What are you people talking about?  These are shallots.  These are various onion-but-not-shallot things with helpful descriptions.

As to Julia's pronunciation, are we sure she wasn't just adding one of her "eccentric" touches?

Sorry to be a rapscallion  - R.


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## Loob

Very helpful, Aaar.  So fat onions are called something different from thin onions? I believe I am beginning to understand.

Being a citizen of the European Union, I would of course need to have the categorisation explained in precise metric terms.


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## Scalloper

natkretep said:


> I've never heard an Englishman or an Englishwoman say scallion.



You have now: scallions! That is definitely the usual word used in at least this part of England


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## Loob

Scalloper said:


> You have now: scallions! That is definitely the usual word used in at least this part of England


Where is "this part of England", Scalloper?


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## Scalloper

South east Northumberland (and probably wider afield)


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## jeff9705

As an American living in Europe I disagree with you.  Most of the world is taught British English (including the 300M that live in Western Europe).  Most people on the planet know British English (as they dominated 85% of the world) than they do American English.  Having visited 30 countries on five continents I have personally experienced it.



GreenWhiteBlue said:


> I would say that in American English it is the standard pronunciation. I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced with the accent on the second syllable.
> 
> 
> You were mistaken. Some of us Americans say "scallions", but some (and I am among them) say "green onions", and others say "spring onions". Note that it is always dangerous to make assumptions about what "Americans" say when compared to "the BE term", if for no other reason than there are six times as many of us as there are of speakers of BE, and so a variety of terms is far more likely in AE than in BE.


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## Shahrooz

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Note that it is always *dangerous *to make assumptions about what "Americans" say when compared to "the BE term", if for no other reason than there are six times as many of us as there are of speakers of BE, and so a variety of terms is far more likely in AE than in BE.





And, where's the *danger *of wrong assumptions over the names and pronunciations of veggie in AmE or BrE?


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## Cameljockey

رضا said:


> And, where's the *danger *of wrong assumptions over the names and pronunciations of veggie in AmE or BrE?



 OK no-one will die.....

UK regional variations are also often still quite marked, but as the country is smaller perhaps they travel and dilute a little more easily than in the US.


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## abenr

natkretep said:


> Thanks - that's very interesting. So SHALLot is a common AE pronunciation (and shalLOT is more BrE). The Julia Child DVD is from the 1960s so maybe 'spring onion' is the older AE term?



It's SHALLot in common AE, but the accent is on the last syllable in Tennyson's poem of Lancelot, "The Lady of Shallott"  As for spring onions, it means scallions, the term I'd use.


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## abenr

ewie said:


> Direct from the horse's mouth: "It's the Scottish word for them, isn't it?  Or is it Irish?  It's a nice word.  And spring onions only exist in Spring, like *spring cabbage*, whereas you get scallions all year round, like the ones we've got growing out the back at the moment.  I just think _spring_ onions are not well-named, they're inappropriately named.  And I'm _not_ a horse."



_*Spring cabbage*_?  That's a new one on me.  Might they be what I call Brussel sprouts?


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## Shahrooz

Cameljockey said:


> OK no-one will die.....
> 
> UK regional variations are also often still quite marked, but as the country is smaller perhaps they travel and dilute a little more easily than in the US.



Thanks god that the danger is literal not lethal.


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## Shahrooz

abenr said:


> _*Spring cabbage*_?  That's a new one on me.  Might they be what I call Brussel sprouts?




Suggestion:

Why you people don't simply Google the image of "Spring onion" , then you see that the word is All Correct! 

Unless, you are talking about another stuff, but not the one which images are showing.


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## Uncle Bob

What a shame, it means the AE pronunciation does not permit the pun "That's shallot"



Loob said:


> Oh, and I've never, quite, seen the point of _spring onions_.


If you have problems finding room on the bus/train when travelling to
work in the morning then spring onions for breakfast are second only to chewing a clove of garlic.


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