# Egyptian/Yemeni Arabic: ج/جيم pronounced as hard g



## SofiaB

I am curious as to why in Cairo and northern Egypt as well as Aden Yemen ج  has that sound.The two dialects are otherwise quite different. Can we find that sound in other places? Is it from the influence of a non-Arabic language?


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## Abu Bishr

Hi All

I'll attempt to answer the question.

Classically speaking the point of articulation of the ج is the middle part of the tongue (which is also point of articulation of the ي as a consonant) together with the part of the palate directly opposing it. Now, if you listen to the way the Sudanese pronounce the ج then you'll see it's a sort of mixture between a ي and a ج which comes very close to the [g] or Egyptian ج . If you know a Sudanse then ask him or her to pronounce the word "hajj" then you will see what I mean. I've heard Somalians also pronounce their ج like the Sudanese. So I'd say that the Sudanese ج is sort of a precursor to the Egyptian ج .

Check any book on Quranic Tajwiid for the articulation point of the ج and you will see it's the one described above. Moreover, in the past there have been Arabic dialects that transformed a ي into a ج which shows the closeness these two letters share with regard to point of articulation. By the way the ش completes the group of letters that emanate from central or middle part of the tongue, and they are referred to by Arabic phonologists as الحروف الشجرية because of the emanation from the شجر اللسان i.e. the central part of the tongue.


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## mansio

I have read somewhere that originally in the jîm was pronounced like "g".

That corresponds to the way it is pronouced in Hebrew. For example jisr (bridge) is gesher in Hebrew.


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

I agree with Abu Bishr's comment about the pronunciation in Somalia.  I've also heard it in Sana'a, so I don't think that Aden is the only place in Yemen where they do it.


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## cherine

I'm not sure where the Egyptian g came from, nor why do we -Egyptians- pronounce it this way like the Yemenites do.

But speaking in general about Arabic لهجات , I remember reading that some expressions where known to be used by some of the Arab tribes of the Jazira الجزيرة العربية , and some of those expressions, ways of pronouncing, some suffixes to sounded -to me- like those used in Egypt.
So here's what I think : the way we pronounce some letters or use some words, we learned it from the Arabs who first came to Egypt, but there were different tribes, each settled in a region of Egypt, and maybe this what makes us -Egyptians- have different dialects. In some parts of Egypt, people pronounce the ج  "j", in others they pronounce it almost like a "d".


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## SofiaB

اشكركم جميعا


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## MarcB

Abu Bishr said:


> Classically speaking the point of articulation of the ج is the middle part of the tongue (which is also point of articulation of the ي as a consonant) together with the part of the palate directly opposing it. Now, if you listen to the way the Sudanese pronounce the ج then you'll see it's a sort of mixture between a ي and a ج which comes very close to the [g] or Egyptian ج .


In some countries *ج * ispronounced as ي .


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## Qcumber

The _Encyclopedia of Islam_ gives the list of the various pronunciations of the letter * ج*.
The evolution can be summed as follows: 
g > gy (Yemen and North-Arabic nomads)
> dy > j > Z (pronounced like the French <j>) 
e.g. gamal > gyamal 
/ > dyamal > jamal > Zamal.
Then there must have been variations such as zy, z, y.


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## Phosphorus

Maybe this thread is left for a long time, but a question of mine took me here I am to reactivate this thread. Well I too have discerned Egyptians pronouncing original Arabic "j" as "g". All I speculated at once was that it might be referred to a pre-Islamic influence of Ancient Egyptian language (should I call it Hemitic?) in which equivalents of Arabic words containing "j" were originally pronounced by "g", maybe similar to the case of Hebrew?


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## fdb

Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> I agree with Abu Bishr's comment about the pronunciation in Somalia.  I've also heard it in Sana'a, so I don't think that Aden is the only place in Yemen where they do it.



If you heard it in Sanaa you heard it from a Southerner. Sanaa dialect has /ʤ/.


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## cherine

Phosphorus said:


> All I speculated at once was that it might be referred to a pre-Islamic influence of Ancient Egyptian language (should I call it Hemitic?) in which equivalents of Arabic words containing "j" were originally pronounced by "g", maybe similar to the case of Hebrew?



I don't think this speculation is right. Please check the posts # 2 and 3 of this thread, and the other posts as well. This pronunciation is not an influence of the Egyptian language, but one of many Arabic dialects/pronunciations. Another proof is that it's not only found in Egypt.


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## Phosphorus

cherine said:


> I don't think this speculation is right. Please check the posts # 2 and 3 of this thread, and the other posts as well. This pronunciation is not an influence of the Egyptian language, but one of many Arabic dialects/pronunciations.



Well I checked those posts, but they do not seem to preclude any presumable role of Ancient Egyptian. Abu Bashir points out the case of "j"/"y" resemblance, which as far as I am concerned is attested in many languages-including Indo-European ones (development of Proto-Iranian "y" > "j" is a characteristic of many New Iranian languages, as well as the vice versa: "j" > "y"). But the case with Egyptian Arabic is that they seemingly develop original "j" into "g"-which at least surprises an native Indo-European speaker such as me-in whose mother tongue and its family of languages it is "g" which shifts to "j" and not the vice versa! By the way even I was, if not mistakenly, given to speculate that such a change, "g" > "j", is inherent to Arabic (e.g. Hebrew "Gabriel" vs. Arabic "Jibrail"); thence Arabic alphabet totally lacks a letter for "g"!
By the way Abu Bashir refers to Quranic Tajwiid. As a matter of fact all of these sources are post-Islamic-namely they pertain to the era that Muslim Arabs had successfully conquered originally non-Arabic areas such as Egypt, Levant or Iraq and the local people had, for any reasons, undergone an accomplished period of so-called Arabification. Therefore it is fairly safe to think that by those times, early centuries of Hegira, there must have been Arabic speakers of non-Arab origin who would pronounce original Arabic "j" as "g".

Also in regard with Mansio's hearsay, unfortunately this contributor does not provide any sources for his indication.    



cherine said:


> Another proof is that it's not only found in Egypt.



Yes it is apparently not restricted to Egypt, but other countries in this case-Sudan or Sumalia are most likely influenced by Ancient Egypt in a historical context too. Maybe the only original (if I am not mistaken) Arab people who are speculated of pronouncing "j" as "g" are Yemenies, who, as you have pointed out, do not pronouce it in the same way as Egyptians do. So it still cannot rull out the Ancient Egyptian proper, I presume.


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## WadiH

Phosphorus,

The pronunciation of _jiim_ as [g] is widespread even today in Yemen and Oman.  The Cairo area was settled early on by Arabian tribes from that area.  That is the probable origin of this phenomenon.  One thing you may not have considered is that this feature was historically restricted to Cairo and perhaps other larger cities in lower Egypt.  In the countryside and especially in Upper Egypt (which is where the influence of pre-Islamic languages would be expected to linger the longest), the traditional pronunciation has always been [dj].  It is notable in this regard that the tribes that settled in Upper Egypt in the Middle Ages were from central and western Arabia (Mudhar and Rabi'a), as opposed to the Yemenite tribes that settled in Al-Fustat (latter-day Cairo).


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## Phosphorus

Well that explanation is something and sounds rational. So is it historically recorded that only Yemenite tribes have settled in Cairo and its surrounding areas? Do you by Upper Egypt mean Alexandria and Nile Delta? Is it attested that they have always pronounce "j" unchanged? If so then can I say that there are two trends in Egyptian Arabic towards "j": one in Northern Egypt in which it is unchanged, and the other-discussed in this thread is attested in Central and Southern Egypt? Please correct if I am wrong. I think in this case one thing is for sure: it fatally lacks a scientific survey.


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## dkarjala

Why certain dialects pronounce /j/ the way they do is a matter of history and migration. The fact of the matter is, there are 4-5 ways it is pronounced in different dialects and registers. The only plausible explanation, linguistically speaking, is that the sound began as a hard /g/ and went through the normal typological shifts one would expect. (Compare Latin g to the different pronunciations of g in Spanish, Italian, French, etc.).

As it happens, the language that all Semitic languages stem from probably had a /g/ because that explains the evidence best. Therefore, those languages and dialects that use /g/ have *kept* the old pronunciation while other dialects and languages have changed to a variety of other pronunciations. That means that languages with /g/ are more conservative vis-a-vis others.


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## Phosphorus

That, shift of original "g" to "j", is evidently the case in Semitic linguistics. But the surprising part is that it sounds far-fetched to assume that those Arabic dialects with "g" have in one or another way retained the original sound; because, as you pointed out the case of Latin "g", as far as I am concerned the Arabic alphabet, as opposed to that of Latin, misses a letter for "g" at all. Thus when they have devised their alphabet, they were supposedly had changed "g" into "j" and duly they found it unnecessary to dedicate any letters to this consonant in their writing system. And as a matter of fact major areas in which Arabic "j" is explicitly pronounced as "g" (namely Egypt as perhaps the most populated Arabic speaking country in the globe) are ones that original Arabic speakers had conquered, under the rule of their Second Caliph, long after the emergence of an Arabic writing system with no letters for "g"! Maybe I miss something here, but for now this is all there is and it complicates the issue.


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## dkarjala

Phosphorus said:


> As far as I am concerned the Arabic alphabet, as opposed to that of Latin, misses a letter for "g" at all.



Don't mix up letters, sounds and roots. The letter ج is the same letter that is pronounced /g/ in other dialects and languages. In fact, the very letter itself is the Aramaic letter g, which has been modified for the Nabatean and eventually Arabic script. Since the pronunciation is either /g/ or /j/ (but never both!) you only need one letter. All of the roots that have a /g/ in Semitic will be pronounced as some kind of /j/ in many Arabic dialects and as a /g/ in the dialects in question.

In addition, the Arabic alphabet was not developed by all Arabs at once, but was used by certain speakers with certain pronunciations, so it reflects their own pronunciation of everything. That is why there is no _hamza_ in the original script and it has to be added - because the Hijazi speakers did not have that sound in their dialect. They did, however, have vowels where the _hamza_should have been, so now we write it on top of vowels. It is the same for /j/. They have the letter ج where the /g/ goes, but they just pronounce it in their own way. 

And at the end of the day, it is conceivable that in some dialects a /j/ sound simplified back to the original /g/ sound on their own, over time. It just happens to also be the original sound shared by all those languages - so the fact that the letter ج is _traditionally _a /j/ sound doesn't mean that there is "no letter for /g/" in Arabic.


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## Phosphorus

dkarjala said:


> Don't mix up letters, sounds and roots. The letter ج is the same letter that is pronounced /g/ in other dialects and languages. In fact, the very letter itself is the Aramaic letter g, which has been modified for the Nabatean and eventually Arabic script. Since the pronunciation is either /g/ or /j/ (but never both!) you only need one letter. All of the roots that have a /g/ in Semitic will be pronounced as some kind of /j/ in many Arabic dialects and as a /g/ in the dialects in question.



Accordingly it stands to reason that there is no distinction between "g" and "j" in the alphabets of the other Semitic languages-specifically the ancient ones?



dkarjala said:


> In addition, the Arabic alphabet was not developed by all Arabs at once, but was used by certain speakers with certain pronunciations, so it reflects their own pronunciation of everything. That is why there is no _hamza_ in the original script and it has to be added - because the Hijazi speakers did not have that sound in their dialect. They did, however, have vowels where the _hamza_should have been, so now we write it on top of vowels. It is the same for /j/. They have the letter ج where the /g/ goes, but they just pronounce it in their own way.



I did not say it is developed at once. I only stress the fact that it is evidently developed by those who could not pronounce "g", "ch", "p", and "zh" (as "z" in English "azure"). I do not think that Arabs either pronounce "z" or "zh"! For example in Iranian toponyms most official ones are Arabified: "Buzjan" which stands for original Iranian "Bo_zh_gan", or "Isfahan" for "Espahan". Even in the modern times I have so many times noticed that they use "gh" instead of original "g" when they want to write a, for instance, Western name in Arabic (e.g. "doqtur Kinghz" for "Dr. Kings" کینغز). It implicates that at least in the so-called Standard Arabic they apparently do not regard "j" as an equivalent of "g".   



dkarjala said:


> And at the end of the day, it is conceivable that in some dialects a */j/ sound simplified back to the original /g/* sound on their own, over time. It just happens to also be the original sound shared by all those languages - so the fact that the letter ج is _traditionally _a /j/ sound doesn't mean that there is "no letter for /g/" in Arabic.



I too still presume that "j" might have shifted into "g". Nonetheless Wadi Hanifa pointed out some historical notes suggesting that no changes has occurred, but instead Egyptian Arab speakers have retained an originally Yemenite pronunciation of "j", which some claim to be "g". However no body has provided any archaeologically authentic evidences for these indications so far. I wonder how come no reliable scholar has ever taken this issue, in a scientific manner, into account?


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## clevermizo

Phosphorus said:


> Accordingly it stands to reason that there is no distinction between "g" and "j" in the alphabets of the other Semitic languages-specifically the ancient ones?



That is correct. However, in modern Aramaic I believe that the base letter for _gamal_ (I think is the name) can be modified with dots to indicate [dƷ] or [ɣ]. But I'm not quite sure about Aramaic phonology and it depends on region.



> It implicates that at least in the so-called Standard Arabic they apparently do not regard "j" as an equivalent of "g".



Well, very often Egyptians use the [g] pronunciation in their renditions of standard Arabic. So I think there it is considered equivalent. 



> I too still presume that "j" might have shifted into "g".



This is unlikely given normative processes in phonology. Affricates and fricatives rarely evolve into plosives in the world's languages, if ever, however plosives commonly evolve into affricates and fricatives. However it is, I guess, not impossible.



> Nonetheless Wadi Hanifa pointed out some historical notes suggesting that no changes has occurred, but instead Egyptian Arab speakers have retained an originally Yemenite pronunciation of "j", which some claim to be "g". However no body has provided any archaeologically authentic evidences for these indications so far. I wonder how come no reliable scholar has ever taken this issue, in a scientific manner, into account?



The evidence that the original sound is [g]-like is primarily because most Semitic languages have [g] as the sound in cognate words. But I will admit I'm not sure if there's compelling historical evidence that it was originally [g]-like in Arabic. Nevertheless, given the evidence from other Semitic languages as well as normative processes in phonology, we would hypothesize that the original sound was [g]-like and was later affricated, and the affricate has been canonical in Standard Arabic.


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## Phosphorus

clevermizo said:


> That is correct. However, in modern Aramaic I believe that the base letter for _gamal_ (I think is the name) can be modified with dots to indicate [dƷ] or [ɣ]. But I'm not quite sure about Aramaic phonology and it depends on region.



Yes I gave it a whirl and checked it. They appear to originally lack "j" (however I only skimmed some 30 words).



clevermizo said:


> Well, very often Egyptians use the [g] pronunciation in their renditions of standard Arabic. So I think there it is considered equivalent.



I meant in the Standard Arabic, not a dialectal form such as Egyptian Arabic. They presently use "gh" for "g" and "tsh" for "ch" (in names such as Charles or Kings). But still, in accordance with the tradition, they have "f" for "v" and "b" for "p", in non-Arabic words.



clevermizo said:


> This is unlikely given normative processes in phonology. Affricates and fricatives rarely evolve into plosives in the world's languages, if ever, however plosives commonly evolve into affricates and fricatives. However it is, I guess, not impossible.



I am trying to point out a historical background that has caused original Arabic (Hijazi?) to be pronounced as "g" in Egypt. I was given to think of Ancient Egyptian as the one to blame, however Wadi suggested Proto-Islamic Yemenite tribes who settled somewhere in today Cairo. Despite this some other contributors asserted that pronouncing "g" instead of "j" is not universal in terms of Yemeni Arabic, also Cherine, herself a native Egyptian Arabic speaker, mentioned that even those, let's say, sporadic cases of "g" pronunciation in Yemeni Arabic are not similar to that of Egyptian.



clevermizo said:


> The evidence that the original sound is [g]-like is primarily because most Semitic languages have [g] as the sound in cognate words. But I will admit I'm not sure if there's compelling historical evidence that it was originally [g]-like in Arabic. Nevertheless, given the evidence from other Semitic languages as well as normative processes in phonology, we would hypothesize that the original sound was [g]-like and was later affricated, and the affricate has been canonical in Standard Arabic.



As for the Proto-Semitic proper, yes "g" is evidently the original sound. But historical materials indicate that Arab invaders of early Islamic period pronounced "j". As a matter of fact many Iranian toponyms have been changed after the Arab conquest of Iran, and fortunately Iranians can pronounce both sounds, "g" and "j"; therefore when Iranians have been pronouncing it "Zanjan" instead of "Zangan" (an Iranian city) from the earliest centuries of Hegira, then it firmly suggests the Arab conquerors were in favor of "j" than "g" (note that the Perso-Arabic also alphabet distinguishes "g" from "j"). The importance of this fact lies in the very point that Iran and Egypt are almost conquered at the same period and here the question raises: how come Arabified Egyptians have come up with the decision to pronounce it in its ancient form, "g", while the very Arab conquerors were already pronouncing "j"?

Wadi's suggestion sounds pretty rational in this case: am alleged Yemenite influence. But unfortunately I got no authentic materials in terms of Yemenite tribes being settled, perhaps in an exclusive manner in terms of that area, in recently-by that time- conquered land of the deified Pharaohs.


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## WadiH

Phosphorus said:


> I meant in the Standard Arabic, not a dialectal form such as Egyptian Arabic. They presently use "gh" for "g" and "tsh" for "ch" (in names such as Charles or Kings). But still, in accordance with the tradition, they have "f" for "v" and "b" for "p", in non-Arabic words.



What Mizo is telling you is that the Egyptian rendition of _Standard_ Arabic uses _jiim_ for [g].  A book or newspaper published in Egypt would never indicate a [g] sound using غـ, كـ or قـ (which are used in other countries).



> I am trying to point out a historical background that has caused original Arabic (Hijazi?) to be pronounced as "g" in Egypt. I was given to think of Ancient Egyptian as the one to blame, however Wadi suggested Proto-Islamic Yemenite tribes who settled somewhere in today Cairo. Despite this some other contributors asserted that pronouncing "g" instead of "j" is not universal in terms of Yemeni Arabic, also Cherine, herself a native Egyptian Arabic speaker, mentioned that even those, let's say, sporadic cases of "g" pronunciation in Yemeni Arabic are not similar to that of Egyptian.



I don't know what Cherine said, but the _jiim_=[g] feature, while not universal in Yemen and Oman, is nonetheless very widespread (probably the most widespread in Yemen) and cannot be described as sporadic.  It is also indistinguishable from the Cairene pronunciation.  FYI Yemen has a group of dialects (e.g. Taizz and Tihama) that have qaf=[q] and jiim=[g] and dialects (e.g. Sanaa) that have qaf=[g] and jiim=[dj].



> As for the Proto-Semitic proper, yes "g" is evidently the original sound. But historical materials indicate that Arab invaders of early Islamic period pronounced "j". As a matter of fact many Iranian toponyms have been changed after the Arab conquest of Iran, and fortunately Iranians can pronounce both sounds, "g" and "j"; therefore when Iranians have been pronouncing it "Zanjan" instead of "Zangan" (an Iranian city) from the earliest centuries of Hegira, then it firmly suggests the Arab conquerors were in favor of "j" than "g" (note that the Perso-Arabic also alphabet distinguishes "g" from "j"). The importance of this fact lies in the very point that Iran and Egypt are almost conquered at the same period and here the question raises: how come Arabified Egyptians have come up with the decision to pronounce it in its ancient form, "g", while the very Arab conquerors were already pronouncing "j"?



What historical materials are you referring to?  The fact that the Arabs transcribed [g] with a _jiim_ does not tell us much about how they pronounced _jiim_.

(by the way, Arabs are able to pronounce [g], even if the orthography does not have a separate character for it)



> Wadi's suggestion sounds pretty rational in this case: am alleged Yemenite influence. But unfortunately I got no authentic materials in terms of Yemenite tribes being settled, perhaps in an exclusive manner in terms of that area, in recently-by that time- conquered land of the deified Pharaohs.



According to Islamic historical sources, the tribes that initially conquered lower Egypt were largely from Yemen.  I see no reason to discount this.



Phosphorus said:


> Well that explanation is something and sounds rational. So is it historically recorded that only Yemenite tribes have settled in Cairo and its surrounding areas? Do you by Upper Egypt mean Alexandria and Nile Delta? Is it attested that they have always pronounce "j" unchanged?



I can't really say as I'm not an expert in that regard.  I can't recall whether rural Lower Egypt had [g] or [dj] (perhaps the Egyptian members can tell us). However, Egyptian Arabic has been very well studied (beginning at a relatively early date) and I'm sure there are plenty of academic books that answer this question.  Perhaps you can start with _Encyclopedia of Islam 2_.



> If so then can I say that there are two trends in Egyptian Arabic towards "j": one in Northern Egypt in which it is unchanged, and the other-discussed in this thread is attested in Central and Southern Egypt? Please correct if I am wrong. I think in this case one thing is for sure: it fatally lacks a scientific survey.



What do you mean by scientific survey?


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## aisha93

I think the issue of the letter (g) in Arabic language is a very large and complicated one since the word (g) or گ in Persian alphabet is widely used in Gulf countires,Iraq and yemen.

For example the word (q) or ق is pronounced (g) or گ in many of the words as قال/گال..قوی/گوی..قبل/گبل..قلب/گلب

This is probably due to the influence of the Persian (Sassanid Empire) which had conquered/occupied and ruled current Yemen & Oman & Bahrain & Kuwait & UAE & Qatar & Iraq and a part of current Saudi (east region) in 6th century.

There are Arabic words which have been Arabized like جاموس which is originally a Persian word گاومیش and the word خنجر which is a Persian word too خون گر but nowdays even in Iran the word is pronounced as its new form (the arabic form) خنجر as many other words such as اصفهان/اسپهان .. فارس/پارس

But the strange thing is that Omanis and Yemenis still pronounce the word خنجر as خنگر !! 

So it is obvious that the letter (g) has come from the Persian language into the Arabic local dialects.

Not to mention the letter (ch) چ which is used in many different words like کم/چم which I think the word كم itself is the Arabic form of the Persian word چند.

We use the letter (ch) instead of (k) as چلب/کلب..چبیر/کبیر..کأنك/چنک..کان/چان

I realized these things because I know both languages very well, because my mother is an Arab and my father is a Persian.

According to Egypt I don't have any knowledge why do they use (g) instead of (j), but Egypt has gone through different foreign governments through the history such as "Romans/Persians/Arabs/turks" and I guess even egyptians themselves can't easily understand the origin of some words or letters (i.e linguistics matters).

Cause I noticed some Turkish words in egyptians accent like "عربية" referring to a car from the turkish word (araba)

افندم which is (efendim) and باشا which is (başkan or baş).

And let's not forget about the Kurds who ruled Egypt who are known as(Ayyubid dynasty) and the influence of the ancient Pharaonic Language and Coptic Language.So I guess it is not an easy task to discover about the origin of some of the words&letters which are spoken in current Egyptian Accent.


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## Phosphorus

Wadi Hanifa said:


> What Mizo is telling you is that the Egyptian rendition of _Standard_ Arabic uses _jiim_ for [g]. A book or newspaper published in Egypt would never indicate a [g] sound using غـ, كـ or قـ (which are used in other countries).



I know Mizo was talking about Egyptian Arabic, and I meant the Standard Arabic (that is the one they use in Aljazeera, for instance). Because whatever they use in Egypt is after all considered, compared to the Standard one, dialectal; is not it?



Wadi Hanifa said:


> I don't know what Cherine said, but the _jiim_=[g] feature, while not universal in Yemen and Oman, is nonetheless very widespread (probably the most widespread in Yemen) and cannot be described as sporadic.  It is also indistinguishable from the Cairene pronunciation.  FYI Yemen has a group of dialects (e.g. Taizz and Tihama) that have qaf=[q] and jiim=[g] and dialects (e.g. Sanaa) that have qaf=[g] and jiim=[dj].



I see. Interesting notes.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> The fact that the Arabs transcribed [g] with a _jiim_ does not tell us much about how they pronounced _jiim_.



I mentioned not the transcription, but pronunciation.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> (by the way, Arabs are able to pronounce [g], even if the orthography does not have a separate character for it)



I did not say the are essentially unable to pronounce it. As a matter of fact, I believe, people can learn to pronounce every single sound which is pronounced somewhere on this earthy globe by another man 



Wadi Hanifa said:


> According to Islamic historical sources, the tribes that initially conquered lower Egypt were largely from Yemen.  I see no reason to discount this.



And do these sources affirm that only they have settled there, namely no trace of other non-Yemenite tribe's major presence?



Wadi Hanifa said:


> I can't really say as I'm not an expert in that regard.  I can't recall whether rural Lower Egypt had [g] or [dj] (perhaps the Egyptian members can tell us). However, Egyptian Arabic has been very well studied (beginning at a relatively early date) and I'm sure there are plenty of academic books that answer this question.  Perhaps you can start with _Encyclopedia of Islam 2_.



Thank you for the source. I will give it a chance.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> What do you mean by scientific survey?



Something scientifically reliable  that is, in this very case, an investigation that meets both linguistic and archaeological criteria when it comes to conclude any suggestions of facts.


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## WadiH

Phosphorus said:


> I know Mizo was talking about Egyptian Arabic, and I meant the Standard Arabic (that is the one they use in Aljazeera, for instance). Because whatever they use in Egypt is after all considered, compared to the Standard one, dialectal; is not it?



We're talking about _Standard_ Arabic as written by Egyptians.  For example, a book by an Egyptian author in Standard Arabic would spell "Graham" as  جراهام whereas a book by a Syrian author in Standard Arabic would probably spell it as غراهام.



> I did not say the are essentially unable to pronounce it. As a matter of fact, I believe, people can learn to pronounce every single sound which is pronounced somewhere on this earthy globe by another man



I meant pronounced natively. For example, he [g] sound is one of the most frequent sounds in my dialect.



> And do these sources affirm that only they have settled there, namely no trace of other non-Yemenite tribe's major presence?



Probably not exclusively, but enough of a majority to have had an influence on the formation of the dialect of the city.


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## Phosphorus

aisha93 said:


> I think the issue of the letter (g) in Arabic language is a very large and complicated one since the word (g) or گ in Persian alphabet is widely used in Gulf countires,Iraq and yemen.
> 
> For example the word (q) or ق is pronounced (g) or گ in many of the words as قال/گال..قوی/گوی..قبل/گبل..قلب/گلب



Yeah I have discerned it so many times too. Once an old lady from Lebanon was chanting "mukawma! mukawma!" in TV and recently I remember many anti-Ghaddafi militia pronouncing his name as "M3ammar Gaddafi". Usage of "g" and, maybe to a much less extent, "k" instead of original Arabic "q" is also noticeable here and there in the Arabic speaking world.



aisha93 said:


> This is probably due to the influence of the Persian (Sassanid Empire) which had conquered/occupied and ruled current Yemen & Oman & Bahrain & Kuwait & UAE & Qatar & Iraq and a part of current Saudi (east region) in 6th century.



It is an exquisite presumption. Yes one should take into consideration the probable influence of Sasanians, when thinking of this issue.



aisha93 said:


> There are Arabic words which have been Arabized like جاموس which is originally a Persian word گاومیش and the word خنجر which is a Persian word too خون گر but nowdays even in Iran the word is pronounced as its new form (the arabic form) خنجر as many other words such as اصفهان/اسپهان .. فارس/پارس
> 
> But the strange thing is that Omanis and Yemenis still pronounce the word خنجر as خنگر !!
> 
> So it is obvious that the letter (g) has come from the Persian language into the Arabic local dialects.



I noticed many examples of these Arabified words of Iranian origin. It is surprising that in Iran they pronounce it as "khanjar" which reflects the so-called Standard Arabic pronounciation-that stands in contrast to the current pronunciation in Oman or Yemen.



aisha93 said:


> Not to mention the letter (ch) چ which is used in many different words like کم/چم which I think the word كم itself is the Arabic form of the Persian word چند.
> 
> We use the letter (ch) instead of (k) as چلب/کلب..چبیر/کبیر..کأنك/چنک..کان/چان
> 
> I realized these things because I know both languages very well, because my mother is an Arab and my father is a Persian.



Very interesting information. I had no clue that there is "k" to "ch" change in dialectal Arabic. Yes it is a significant characteristic in Iranian languages. Old Iranians have evidently changed many of original Proto-Indo-European "k" sounds into "ch" ("ts") and then "s". Many Old Iranian "k" sounds are also developed into "ch" and later "zh", "z", or "sh" in New Iranian languages (e.g. Avestan "raeka-" > "recha" > "redja" > "riz" ~ "pour" in Persian). 



aisha93 said:


> According to Egypt I don't have any knowledge why do they use (g) instead of (j), but Egypt has gone through different foreign governments through the history such as "Romans/Persians/Arabs/turks" and I guess even egyptians themselves can't easily understand the origin of some words or letters (i.e linguistics matters).
> 
> Cause I noticed some Turkish words in egyptians accent like "عربية" referring to a car from the turkish word (araba)
> 
> افندم which is (efendim) and باشا which is (başkan or baş).
> 
> And let's not forget about the Kurds who ruled Egypt who are known as(Ayyubid dynasty) and the influence of the ancient Pharaonic Language and Coptic Language.So I guess it is not an easy task to discover about the origin of some of the words&letters which are spoken in current Egyptian Accent.



Completely true. The issue is due to the reasons you have mentioned above, too much complicated. Every impacting elements must be taken into consideration in order to obtain a dismistfied picture of some dialectal Arabic varieties that contrast the so-called Standard Arabic.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> We're talking about _Standard_ Arabic as written by Egyptians.  For example, a book by an Egyptian author in Standard Arabic would spell "Graham" as  جراهام whereas a book by a Syrian author in Standard Arabic would probably spell it as غراهام.



I do not mean Egyptian or Syrian Arabic. I stress the so-called Standard Arabic, like the one used in Aljazeera for instance, which holds "Ghraham" for "Graham", and not "Jraham", in its writing.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> I meant pronounced natively. For example, he [g] sound is one of the most frequent sounds in my dialect.



We all agree that in many Arab dialects people natively pronounce lot of "g"s . The question is in regard with Standard Arabic which contains no "g" at all and has left its trace in this respect in places such as Iran since around 13 centuries ago.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> Probably not exclusively, but enough of a majority to have had an influence on the formation of the dialect of the city.



I see. If true then its influence is pretty plausible.


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## clevermizo

Phosphorus said:


> I do not mean Egyptian or Syrian Arabic. I stress the so-called Standard Arabic, like the one used in Aljazeera for instance, which holds "Ghraham" for "Graham", and not "Jraham", in its writing.



But Standard Arabic is not used the same everywhere. We understand that you are not referring to dialect here. In Egypt, in Standard Arabic, 'g' is represented by ج. Al-Jazeera is not based in Egypt, so naturally they do not use ج for 'g'.


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## dkarjala

aisha93 said:


> For example the word (q) or ق is pronounced (g) or گ in many of the words as قال/گال..قوی/گوی..قبل/گبل..قلب/گلب
> 
> This is probably due to the influence of the Persian (Sassanid Empire) which had conquered/occupied and ruled current Yemen & Oman & Bahrain & Kuwait & UAE & Qatar & Iraq and a part of current Saudi (east region) in 6th century.



Just a note on _qaaf _that I always find interesting. 1) Sibawayh says that _qaaf _is a voiced consonant 2) Many rural dialects in different areas use /g/ for _qaaf _and it is often a clear distinction between urban/rural (and even male/female in some cases). So it stands to reason that the original articulation in many dialects was a voiced g-sound and this would thus be a retention rather than a borrowing.


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## Phosphorus

clevermizo said:


> But Standard Arabic is not used the same  everywhere. We understand that you are not referring to dialect here. In  Egypt, in Standard Arabic, 'g' is represented by ج. Al-Jazeera is not  based in Egypt, so naturally they do not use ج for 'g'.



Pal let go the standard forms of dialectal Arabic varieties. I am  talking about the one Standard Arabic they use in international and  global cases, not local ones. That is the one which is used when, for  instance, a non-Arabic country uses in order to broadcast or publish in  Arabic. When you check Al-Sharq Alwasat, BBC Persian or the Iranian  periodicals in Arabic you get "Folksfaghen", "konghres", or "Teleghraf",  just like Aljazeera, instead of "Folksfajen", "konjres", or "Telejraf".  This Standard Form is also the one they use in Quranic contests-for  example, and even if I am correct the famous reciter of Quran, Abdul  Basit-himself speaking Egyptian Arabic as mother tongue- did not  pronounce it "a3udhu .... min ashShaytan ra*g*im!"-nor it  is the prevalent pronunciation they teach young qaries to read Quran,  around the globe. I hope this time it is clear what I mean by Standard  Arabic. 



dkarjala said:


> Just a note on _qaaf _that I always find interesting. 1) Sibawayh says that _qaaf _is a voiced consonant 2) Many rural dialects in different areas use /g/ for _qaaf _and it is often a clear distinction between urban/rural (and even male/female in some cases). So it stands to reason that the original articulation in many dialects was a voiced g-sound and this would thus be a retention rather than a borrowing.



Yes they originally pronounce "q" as "g", since they are historically not original Arabic speakers. But the question is why is it so? While even, if I am not mistaken, all Semitic languages are supposed to contain this consonant, "q", it seems to be an influence from a supposedly adjacent Indo-European language-which originally lack "q" (at least in the languages spoken in that vicinity-Middle East).


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## WadiH

dkarjala said:


> Just a note on _qaaf _that I always find interesting. 1) Sibawayh says that _qaaf _is a voiced consonant 2) Many rural dialects in different areas use /g/ for _qaaf _and it is often a clear distinction between urban/rural (and even male/female in some cases). So it stands to reason that the original articulation in many dialects was a voiced g-sound and this would thus be a retention rather than a borrowing.



The [g] pronunciation of _qaaf_ seems to originate from western and central Arabia.  The ancient eastern Arabian pronunciation was [q], of which traces can still be found in the traditional sedentary dialects of Qatif, Bahrain and (I think) Oman.

http://acc.teachmideast.org/texts.php?module_id=1&reading_id=113 
http://acc.teachmideast.org/texts.php?module_id=1&reading_id=36&sequence=2

Part of the confusion here seems to be that Phosphorus treats Standard Arabic as developing before the dialects rather than after.  But by definition it is _Standard_ and so was preceded by diverse dialects.


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## Phosphorus

Wadi Hanifa said:


> The [g] pronunciation of _qaaf_ seems to originate from western and central Arabia.  The ancient eastern Arabian pronunciation was [q], of which traces can still be found in the traditional sedentary dialects of Qatif, Bahrain and (I think) Oman.



But apparently, as Aisha herself a native Bahraini Arabic speaker affirms, in those areas they majorly pronounce original "qaaf" as "g". Or maybe by "q" you actually mean "g"?



Wadi Hanifa said:


> NITLE Arab World Project
> NITLE Arab World Project



Truly a useful source. I cordially thank you.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> Part of the confusion here seems to be that Phosphorus treats Standard Arabic as developing before the dialects rather than after.  But by definition it is _Standard_ and so was preceded by diverse dialects.



In terms of pronouncing letter "jeem" as "dj", it had definitely being established before the Arabification of the conquered lands such as Egypt. Local Arabized toponyms and even post-Islamic borrowings in Arabic confirm the absence of "g", "ch", "p", and "zh" (as "z" in "azure") sounds in the standard speech of the Arab conquerors.

Your given source is very valuable in terms of Arabic linguistics. It investigates the diversity in Arabic dialects in a rather precise as well as inclusive manner; but unfortunately, while pointing out the differences regarding pronunciation of "qaaf" and "jeem" even in the pre-Islamic era, it fails to handle it in terms of giving any idea what ever for such differences exist and, as the most important question, how come Arab Muslims picked "q" and "j", and not "k/g" and "g", pronunciations for the language which, besides being their mother tongue, they most heartedly believed to be the chosen language of God?

By the way I got that the aforesaid source, in another article on the language of the pre-Islamic Arabs (Jahiliyah), explicitly points out the probability of foreign influence when investigating the diversity of Arab dialects.


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## dkarjala

Phosphorus said:


> Yes they originally pronounce "q" as "g", since they are historically not original Arabic speakers. But the question is why is it so? While even, if I am not mistaken, all Semitic languages are supposed to contain this consonant, "q", it seems to be an influence from a supposedly adjacent Indo-European language-which originally lack "q" (at least in the languages spoken in that vicinity-Middle East).



Actually, Sibawayh says the pronunciation of _qaaf _is voiced by its nature. It is still probably a uvular plosive and not velar /g/. It could also explain why Aramaic uses _qaaf_ where _Daad_ should be - because it may have also been a voiced emphatic.

Once you start going that far back, it's hard to say what languages lack what sounds. There were apparently many post-velar sounds in earlier Indo-European dialects. And the Greek alphabet even has two letters, qoppa and digamma, that aren't used in standard forms.


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## Phosphorus

dkarjala said:


> Actually, Sibawayh says the pronunciation of _qaaf _is voiced by its nature. It is still probably a uvular plosive and not velar /g/. It could also explain why Aramaic uses _qaaf_ where _Daad_ should be - because it may have also been a voiced emphatic.



In the source provided by Wadi it is speculated that the cases of "qaaf" and "jeem" have probably existed in the pre-Islamic era too in Arabia. It explicitly affirms the differences. But gives no idea what for "q" and "dj" pronunciations became standard.



dkarjala said:


> Once you start going that far back, it's hard to say what languages lack what sounds. There were apparently many post-velar sounds in earlier Indo-European dialects. And the Greek alphabet even has two letters, qoppa and digamma, that aren't used in standard forms.



In case of proto-Islamic Arabic it is definitely not that hard. Iranian toponyms such as "Zanjan", "Isfahan", "Sa'in", or "Buzjan" which are Arabized forms of "Zangan", "Espahan", "Chain" and "Bozhgan" respectively; confirm that the Arab conquerors failed to pronounce the originally Iranian endonyms containing "g", "p", "ch", and "zh". Even pre-Islamic borrowings indicate such a situation too (e.g. Quranic "firdaws" < originally from Avestan "paradaiza" ~ "paradise" or "kanz", again from Quran, < most likely from Persian "ganj" with a shift of "j" into "dz" and then "z").


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## dkarjala

Phosphorus said:


> In terms of pronouncing letter "jeem" as "dj", it had definitely being established before the Arabification of the conquered lands such as Egypt. Local Arabized toponyms and even post-Islamic borrowings in Arabic confirm the absence of "g", "ch", "p", and "zh" (as "z" in "azure") sounds in the standard speech of the Arab conquerors.



I'm sorry to be so detail-oriented, but I also think an interesting question is raised by the two spellings اسبهان، اسفهان. They come from different times and, to me, are worthy of creating some controversy about Arabic p/b.


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## Phosphorus

dkarjala said:


> I'm sorry to be so detail-oriented, but I also think an interesting question is raised by the two spellings اسبهان، اسفهان. They come from different times and, to me, are worthy of creating some controversy about Arabic p/b.



Well if I am not mistaken, "Isbahan", is just a rather regular transcriptional error by overlooking tow dots which would make "b" as "p". That is "Isbahan" is nothing outside of "Espahan" which has gradually found its way in the lexicon along with "Isfahan"-which dominates as even today almost all Iranians call the city this way (I can only recall a beloved old Kurdish lady, an illiterate person, who always use to call it "Aspahan"; to point out an exclusion). As far as my minds go "b" for "p", "k" for "g", "dh" for "d", and even "z" for "r", are repetitive orthographic mistakes in classical texts in regards with the Iranian proper.

By the way taking it into account in a detailed manner is a gift in order to seek the truth


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## WadiH

Phosphorus, there are many detailed studies of Bahrani Arabic (e.g. the one by Clive Holes) and the presence of [q] in the *traditional*dialect of the Bahrani (Shi'ites) of Bahrain and Qatif is well known.  Notice I say presence, not dominance.  Most words are pronounced with a [g] but there are still traces of the [q] in some words.  The urban Gulf dialects also have [q] in some words, probably under the influence of the older Bahrani dialects.



dkarjala said:


> Actually, Sibawayh says the pronunciation of _qaaf _is voiced by its nature. It is still probably a uvular plosive and not velar /g/. It could also explain why Aramaic uses _qaaf_ where _Daad_ should be - because it may have also been a voiced emphatic.



Further to Sibawayh's testimony, in Arabian dialects (such as Najdi and Gulf dialects), the _qaaf_ (which, of course, is voiced) affects the quality of the following vowel much like an emphatic consonant.  It also "darkens" nearby [l]'s and [r]'s.  So, perhaps what Sibawayh heard was a sort of emphatic [g].


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## Phosphorus

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Phosphorus, there are many detailed studies of Bahrani Arabic (e.g. the one by Clive Holes) and the presence of [q] in the *traditional*dialect of the Bahrani (Shi'ites) of Bahrain and Qatif is well known.  Notice I say presence, not dominance.  Most words are pronounced with a [g] but there are still traces of the [q] in some words.



Indeed.


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## Hemza

I think that Egyptian pronounciation of "jim" as "gim" comes from tribes who settled in Egypt, because this pronounciation also exists in Morocco (althought, not for all words) but not in Tunisia (I don't know about Algeria). And as some Yemeni tribes settled in Southern Morocco, Andalusia (then, fled to Morocco and settled), and as in some Yemeni areas, they pronounce it as "gim", it can comes from Yemeni who settled and influenced the dialects of Egypt and Morocco. For example, we say
-"gazar" instead of "jazar" (meat seller)
-"guz" instead of "juz" (nut)
-"3aguz" (old man).

Of course, I'm not sure, but that's my hypothesis.


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## DarrenLamb

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I don't know what Cherine said, but the _jiim_=[g] feature, while not universal in Yemen and Oman, is nonetheless very widespread (probably the most widespread in Yemen).



It's fair to say that it is pretty widespread in Oman among the native Omanis and I'd say that a majority use this pronunciation. A couple of regions speak with Bedouin dialects and hence pronounce it as "j".


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