# Christmas-esque Stories of Minoritarian Cultures



## DCPaco

Hello Everyone  :

Being that the Holidays are coming, I thought I'd open a thread about Christmas or Christmas(like) stories of cultures that are seldom in the limelight.

Quite a few years ago, I stumbled across a Basque story, Olentzero: Izena duan guztia omen da ("Olentzero: Everything that has a name exists"), and I have ever since enjoyed reading this story--it's beautiful. (For those who are from the Basque Country:  In this story there is something about him being a coal miner...could that possibly be related to the story about being bad and getting a lump of coal?)

Regards,

Paco

(For those who aren't familiar with it, I recommend reading it...it's not long at all...well at least the version by Angel Benito Gastañaga.)


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## maxiogee

DCPaco said:


> Hello Everyone  :
> 
> Being that the Holidays are coming,



Stop
- - - right 
- - - - - - - there!

- - - - - - - - - - - - Let's
- - - - - - - - - - - - sort
- - - - - - - - - - - - this
- - - - - - - - - - - - finally…

What is coming is not 'holidays' - it is *Christmas* - a time-honoured Christian festival which will be celebrated in many countries by people who will not be experiencing 'holidays'. These holidays are consequent on Christmas - not separate from it. To focus on them would be akin to someone saying "the dessert is coming" instead of "We are about to have dinner".

I will refrain from my secondary diatribe about the purloining of the definite article which is associated with this repugnant expression!

This seasonal rant has been brought to you by Pedants 'R Us


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## cuchuflete

It pains me just a wee bit to disagree with such a screaming weeny with big red letters, but on this side of the puddle, "The holidays" includes more than Christmas. It is a period of crass commercialism mixed with family reunions and mandatory frivolity at many places of work.  To hang all of that goodness and materialistic excess on a Christian festival is not accurate.


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## Lemminkäinen

maxiogee said:


> a time-honoured Christian festival



You mean "a festival with its roots and tradition in the pagan celebrations of winter solstice and the Roman celebration of Saturn, the date decided by a pope four centuries after the birth it is supposed to celebrate"?

The history of Christmas has as much to do with Christ as the pine in the living room have to do with the palm trees of Betlehem.


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## Victoria32

DCPaco said:


> Hello Everyone  :
> 
> Being that the Holidays are coming, I thought I'd open a thread about Christmas or Christmas(like) stories of cultures that are seldom in the limelight.
> 
> Quite a few years ago, I stumbled across a Basque story, Olentzero: Izena duan guztia omen da ("Olentzero: Everything that has a name exists"), and I have ever since enjoyed reading this story--it's beautiful. (For those who are from the Basque Country: In this story there is something about him being a coal miner...could that possibly be related to the story about being bad and getting a lump of coal?)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paco
> 
> (For those who aren't familiar with it, I recommend reading it...it's not long at all...well at least the version by Angel Benito Gastañaga.)


DC Paco, could you point me in the direction of that story in English please? 
I would really appreciate it!

Vicky


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## DCPaco

Victoria32 said:


> DC Paco, could you point me in the direction of that story in English please?
> I would really appreciate it!
> 
> Vicky


 
Vicky:

This site gives a bit of information on the tradition, and it also has the version of the story I'm talking about.

http://www.nabasque.org/NABO/Olentzero.htm

Let me know if you enjoyed it.

Take care,

Paco


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## DCPaco

Lemminkäinen said:


> You mean "a festival with its roots and tradition in the pagan celebrations of winter solstice and the Roman celebration of Saturn, the date decided by a pope four centuries after the birth it is supposed to celebrate"?
> 
> The history of Christmas has as much to do with Christ as the pine in the living room have to do with the palm trees of Betlehem.


 
Well, whatever it may be, do you have something from Norway to contribute?

Maxiogee:  Okay, then Christmas for you...have you got a story from your neck of the woods to contribute? 

Best regards to both of you,

Paco


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## John-Paul

We have this tradition in the Netherlands called Sinterklaas. Sinterklaas is short for Sint Nikolaas, or Saint Nicholas.  He was supposed to be the bishop of Myra in Anatolia in the 3d or 4th century. Somehow he ended up in Madrid, Spain. Ever since the Spanish-Dutch wars of the 15th and 16th century the Dutch celebrate Sinterklaas' birthday on the eve of december 5.  Every year he brings presents, he comes down chimney to put candy in a shoe and he also has the naughty/nice book. The Dutch brought Sinterklaas to America in the 17th century and kept the tradition alive. In the early 1900's Coca Cola put an American version of Santa in their advertisements and the rest, as they say, is histoy. Christmas spending, dear people is what keeps this country, ironically, afloat. Interesting fact: The original St. Nicholas was a black man.


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## DCPaco

Thank you John Paul...this is great!!! Now, I'm merely speculating based on what you've said, since the Olentzero was a coal miner do you think the Spanish-Dutch encounter could've ended up with a fusion of Sinterklaas and Olentzero making Santa Claus a fusion of Olentzero/Sinterklaas that was then exported to America? 

I ask because the Olentzero is the only one of these old guys that I know was a coal miner and it would explain why he came with coals for the bad kids--instead of toys. Or do you think that the coal was just handy because of the chimney?

I'm certain African-Americans would be thrilled to know that the original St. Nicholas was black.


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## Victoria32

DCPaco said:


> Vicky:
> 
> This site gives a bit of information on the tradition, and it also has the version of the story I'm talking about.
> 
> http://www.nabasque.org/NABO/Olentzero.htm
> 
> Let me know if you enjoyed it.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Paco


Thank you for that! I shall read it and let you know,... 

Yes, that is a great story!  

Vicky


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## DCPaco

I believe in France, there are two characters that are involved in the Christmas tradition...I can't remember their names at the moment, but if a French person reads this, please feel free to contribute.


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## Namakemono

DCPaco said:


> I'm certain African-Americans would be thrilled to know that the original St. Nicholas was black.


 
I'm sure blacks will be even more thrilled. 

Christmas has never had a religious meaning in my region, but it's a great occassion to be all together and have a great time. 
As a schoolboy, I was disappointed to find out every year that Santa Claus had a sore throat and couldn't talk with us when he came to our school. That was before I found out it was actually a grown-up cosplaying.


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## maxiogee

Lemminkäinen said:


> You mean "a festival with its roots and tradition in the pagan celebrations of winter solstice and the Roman celebration of Saturn, the date decided by a pope four centuries after the birth it is supposed to celebrate"?



You could equally have said "a festival which the Christian Church used to usurp and supplant an even older festival, about which few nowadays know anything."



> The history of Christmas has as much to do with Christ as the pine in the living room have to do with the palm trees of Betlehem.


In the same way that the 'history' of any annual event is connected to the person it commemorates - that Christmas is a religious feast celebrating the birth of Jesus is about as close to having "much to do with Christ" as you'll get —> How much does the average Thanksgiving Day have to do with those handful who survived their first year in New England? How much thanks is actually given?

=========
No, I don't think we Irish have any "Christmasesque" stories.


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## DCPaco

maxiogee said:


> =========
> No, I don't think we Irish have any "Christmasesque" stories.


 
Not even something Celtic that is remotely related?


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## Frank06

Hi,


Namakemono said:


> I'm sure blacks will be even more thrilled.



I don't want to spoil the party, but Sint Nicolaas is normally connected with a bishop from Lycia (modern day Turkey). Not many black people there...
There are quite some other ideas about the 'identity' of the original Sint, but as far as I know, none of them can be connected with Africa and hence neither with black people.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## tchristodouleas

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> I don't want to spoil the party, but Sint Nicolaas is normally connected with a bishop from Lycia (modern day Turkey). Not many black people there...
> There are quite some other ideas about the 'identity' of the original Sint, but as far as I know, none of them can be connected with Africa and hence neither with black people.
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


 
I have to agree with Frank, as a Greek, I was always taught that "Saint Nicholas" was an ethnic Greek living in what is now Turkey.  He was the son of a rich man who instead of spending his father's money on himself, he'd leave money at the doorstep (or down the chimney) of those in need.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?


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## John-Paul

If you look at the pictures of St. Nick (click on "other ideas") you will notice that his skin is brown. Visit his tomb in Bari, Italy, and you will find portraits of a dark skinned man.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that I believe we should constantly remind everybody that our history is corrupt. Ask anyone anywhere in the world to draw a picture of Jesus and he will appear with bleu eyes, rosy cheeks and blond hair. The beauty of a language forum is that we are able to criticize and question everything - not because we like to disagree, but because we have the power of language to find the truth.


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## modus.irrealis

John-Paul said:


> Ask anyone anywhere in the world to draw a picture of Jesus and he will appear with bleu eyes, rosy cheeks and blond hair.



Anyone anywhere? Or do you mean blue-eyed, blond-haired like this picture?


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## heidita

cuchuflete said:


> It pains me just a wee bit to disagree with such a screaming weeny with big red letters, but on this side of the puddle, "The holidays" includes more than Christmas. It is a period of crass commercialism mixed with family reunions and mandatory frivolity at many places of work. To hang all of that goodness and materialistic excess on a Christian festival is not accurate.


 
I must agree with this, even though I always have great fun and love Christmas. 

But I have heard that it is now "politically incorrect" to say Christmas in the States and one should opt for "holidays". Is this true?
I think that's real nonsense as there would be no holidays if it weren't Christmas. Strange.


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## heidita

maxiogee said:


> Stop
> - - - right
> - - - - - - - there!
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - Let's
> - - - - - - - - - - - - sort
> - - - - - - - - - - - - this
> - - - - - - - - - - - - finally…
> 
> What is coming is not 'holidays' - it is *Christmas* - a time-honoured Christian festival which will be celebrated in many countries by people who will not be experiencing 'holidays'. These holidays are consequent on Christmas - not separate from it. To focus on them would be akin to someone saying "the dessert is coming" instead of "We are about to have dinner".
> 
> I will refrain from my secondary diatribe about the purloining of the definite article which is associated with this repugnant expression!
> 
> This seasonal rant has been brought to you by Pedants 'R Us


 
This is what Jay Leno said on this show. You are quoting him! I know!


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## Victoria32

modus.irrealis said:


> Anyone anywhere? Or do you mean blue-eyed, blond-haired like this picture?


In Rotorua New Zealand, where I grew up, there is an Anglican church called St Faith's which is right on Lake Rotorua.

The church has a huge and beautiful stained glass window depicting Christ as a Maori, with _moko_, feather cloak and all... and He is walking on the water of the lake. I will see if I can find a link to a picture. 

Well here is all I could find! http://images.google.com/images?q="...official&hs=jqY&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi


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## DCPaco

heidita said:


> But I have heard that it is now "politically incorrect" to say Christmas in the States and one should opt for "holidays". Is this true?


 
Hi Heidita.  It is true that in the States, unless you know that all the recipients of your message are Christian you should stick to "holidays."   Here in the States, there are three major faiths (like in Spain and many other parts of the world...but PC here is just gone crazy):  Christian, Jewish, and Muslim.  Now, the Muslims Celebrate Eid ul Adha around that time; the Jews celebrate Chanukkah (and they have a very strong lobby in the USA...right next to the Christmas Tree on Independence Ave. is a HUGE Menorah; we celebrate Christmas; the atheists celebrate along with Christians but the consider the Holiday an entirely secular feast; then, there's also Kwanzaa.


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## John-Paul

modus.irrealis said:


> Anyone anywhere? Or do you mean blue-eyed, blond-haired like this picture?



I stand corrected. Awesome pictures...


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## Maja

John-Paul said:


> Ask anyone anywhere in the world to draw a picture  of Jesus and he will appear with bleu eyes, rosy cheeks and blond  hair.


I respectfully disagree. Actually, I never saw blond-haired Jesus. This  is how The Son is represented in my  church.


tchristodouleas said:


> I  have to agree with Frank, as a Greek, I was always taught that "Saint Nicholas"  was an ethnic Greek living in what is now Turkey. He was the son of a rich man  who instead of spending his father's money on himself, he'd leave money at the  doorstep (or down the chimney) of those in need. Does this sound familiar to  anyone?


 My mum says the same. When she was little (some time after WWII), St.  Nikola (Dec 19th) was the one who used to bring them presents. No Santa Clouse, no  Christmas tree.


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## modus.irrealis

Victoria32 said:


> In Rotorua New Zealand, where I grew up, there is an Anglican church called St Faith's which is right on Lake Rotorua.
> 
> The church has a huge and beautiful stained glass window depicting Christ as a Maori, with _moko_, feather cloak and all... and He is walking on the water of the lake.



That sounds like something I'd very much like to see. I've always found this sort of adaptation to local culture interesting to see what gets preserved and what gets altered. I'm in danger of going too off-topic but the character of Jesus across cultures is fascinating too from the gentle Jesus you see in a lot of places to some of the not quite-so-friendly-looking Jesuses I've seen.



John-Paul said:


> I stand corrected. Awesome pictures...



I was actually kind of surprised by your comment , since like Maja, all the depictions of Jesus I've seen in my religious tradition have not been of the blue-eyed kind, and I pretty much associate that with traditions rooted in Western Europe.


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## Victoria32

modus.irrealis said:


> That sounds like something I'd very much like to see. I've always found this sort of adaptation to local culture interesting to see what gets preserved and what gets altered. I'm in danger of going too off-topic but the character of Jesus across cultures is fascinating too from the gentle Jesus you see in a lot of places to some of the not quite-so-friendly-looking Jesuses I've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> I was actually kind of surprised by your comment , since like Maja, all the depictions of Jesus I've seen in my religious tradition have not been of the blue-eyed kind, and I pretty much associate that with traditions rooted in Western Europe.


I just wish I had been able to find some better pictures, Modus... Maja, those pictures are awesome! 

The BBC had a programme recently with speculation as to what Jesus really looked like - from what I remember, they came up with someone who looked like the singer Cat Stevens (now Yusuf Islam, who is half Greek-Cypriot and half Swedish, bit who grew up in London...)


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## Maja

Victoria32 said:


> I just wish I had been able to find some better pictures, Modus... Maja, those pictures are awesome!



Thank you


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## Zoowärter

In Austria the "Christkind" brings the presents on Christmas Eve, yet "Nikolo" is celebrated on Deceber 6th and brings (good) children chocalate & sweets, while "Krampus" (which is a kind of black&red devil) brings children coals on December 5th if they did not behave well ...


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## DCPaco

Zoowärter said:


> In Austria the "Christkind" brings the presents on Christmas Eve, yet "Nikolo" is celebrated on Deceber 6th and brings (good) children chocalate & sweets, while "Krampus" (which is a kind of black&red devil) brings children coals on December 5th if they did not behave well ...


 
Wow...that's very culturally rich!  Thanks for sharing Zoowärter!


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