# Arabic تلميذ, Hebrew תלמוד



## bearded

Hello everyone

I would like to know whether the word _tilmiidh_ (MSA for 'pupil') and the Hebrew word Talmud (Bible teaching and traditional commentary) come from the same semitic root.

Many thanks in advance for your kind replies.


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## fdb

tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.


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## bearded

fdb said:


> tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.


Very interesting, fdb.  And would you say that Talmud is from the same root (perhaps with a passive meaning, like 'apprehended science...)?


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## eskandar

Yes, the Hebrew 'talmud' is from the same Semitic root l-m-d (_lamadh_, 'he learned').


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## bearded

Again many thanks for your replies, fdb and eskandar.


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## Ali Smith

fdb said:


> tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.


Given that the root ל-מ-ד exists in Hebrew is it not possible that תַּלְמִיד is _not_ a loanword from Aramaic תלמיד (Syriac: ܬܠܡܝܕ) but a native Hebrew word that is cognate with the Aramaic?


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## berndf

Ali Smith said:


> Given that the root ל-מ-ד exists in Hebrew is it not possible that תַּלְמִיד is _not_ a loanword from Aramaic תלמיד (Syriac: ܬܠܡܝܕ) but a native Hebrew word that is cognate with the Aramaic?


@fdb's statement was about the Arabic word, not about Hebrew one. The final _-dh_ (rather than -_d_) would be difficult to explain unless it were a loan from Aramaic. This argument does not apply to the Hebrew word.


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## Ali Smith

Thanks! I don't understand why it can't be a native Hebrew word and still have the _dh_ sound. After all, beged-kepet letters change into fricatives when preceded by a vowel so long as they're not doubled. And that's precisely the case in the Hebrew word.


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## berndf

Ali Smith said:


> I don't understand why it can't be a native Hebrew word and still have the _dh_ sound.


Nobody said it couldn't. The *Arabic* word can't be native *in Arabic*.


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## Mahaodeh

Interestingly, the root ل م د exists in Arabic with very few words, mainly meaning _humble_. You can find it in classical dictionaries such as لسان العرب والقاموس المحيط. When you look up تلميذ, you would find it under تلمذ (another indication that it was borrowed) and the meaning in classical dictionaries is serving apprentice (as in an apprentice that serves his master). It seems that the meaning of student came later.


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## Ali Smith

fdb said:


> tilmīdh is a loanword from Aramaic talmīdhā, which in turn is borrowed from Akkadian talmīdu ‘apprentice’. It is from the root l-m-d 'to adhere to something'.


Interesting! But I don't understand why the vowel in the initial syllable changed from _a_ to _i _in Arabic.


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## raamez

Ali Smith said:


> Interesting! But I don't understand why the vowel in the initial syllable changed from _a_ to _i _in Arabic.


Probably because this would have meant for Arabs that تلميذ has تَفعيل as a pattern (like تجريح, تلقيح,تسفير, etc.) and this hence would made no sense for them.


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## fdb

Ali Smith said:


> Interesting! But I don't understand why the vowel in the initial syllable changed from _a_ to _i _in Arabic.


Many loan words have patterns with /i/ in the first syllable, like diabolos > ʾiblīs, or euangelion > ʾinjīl.


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## djara

Interestigly, the root _lmd _exists in berber with similar meanings.
_elmed _means to learn, to study, to understand
_lemmud_, pl. _lemmudan_, means lesson
_asâlmad_, pl. _isalmadan_, means teacher
_anelmad_, pl. _inelmaden _means apprentice, disciple


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## raamez

djara said:


> Interestigly, the root _lmd _exists in berber with similar meanings.
> _elmed _means to learn, to study, to understand
> _lemmud_, pl. _lemmudan_, means lesson
> _asâlmad_, pl. _isalmadan_, means teacher
> _anelmad_, pl. _inelmaden _means apprentice, disciple


Lmd is maybe related to lmm to collect. We still say in Arabic شخص لا يلم بالموضوع for he doesnt understand the subject


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## Ali Smith

fdb said:


> Many loan words have patterns with /i/ in the first syllable, like diabolos > ʾiblīs, or euangelion > ʾinjīl.


If إبليس is from δῐᾰ́βολος, what happened to the initial consonant?


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## fdb

Ali Smith said:


> If إبليس is from δῐᾰ́βολος, what happened to the initial consonant?


One theory is that diabolos was reinterpreted as Aramaic d- plus *iabolos, like in English, where Persian naranj was reinterpreted as “an orange”.


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## WadiH

Could there have been an Aramaic or Syriac intermediate form without the "di"?


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## Ali Smith

WadiH said:


> Could there have been an Aramaic or Syriac intermediate form without the "di"?


I don't think such a form is attested in any variety of Aramaic.


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## Abaye

djara said:


> Interestigly, the root _lmd _exists in berber with similar meanings.


This articles says it's a loanword from Punic.


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## djara

Abaye said:


> This articles says it's a loanword from Punic.


That makes a lot of sense!


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