# PA: adjective plurals



## Sidjanga

Hi again,

Is it true that, in PA, adjective plurals usually - and invariably - take the "broken" form if they have one, i.e. the form that in فصحى is reserved for (human) masculine plurals?

I.e., that it would have to be

قناني كبار - instead of قناني كبيرة
or 
طاولات طوال - instead of طاولات طويلة, 

for example, and equally بنات كبار ?

Thanks.


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## clevermizo

So this is a little complicated, because inanimate nouns can take strict agreement (with a plural adjective, not just broken plurals: قمصان غاليين _expensive shirts_) or feminine-singular agreement (as in fus7a).

I hope that Elroy can enlighten us a little more about the situation in Palestinian Arabic. Actually I think this has been discussed before, but I can't find the thread at the moment.

The basic principle at work has to do with whether or not the objects in question are considered as a collective (feminine singular agreement) or as individual items (plural agreement). I think that one might say:

كل القمصان في هالدكّان غاليين
All the shirts in this store are expensive (each and every one of them is expensive is the implication)

في هالدكّان بيبيعو قمصان غالية بسّ
They only sell expensive shirts at this store ("shirts" are a group - they may also sell cheap socks, expensive pants, colorful ties, ugly dresses etc.)

Again, a native speaker will have to comment.



> for example, and equally بنات كبار ?


They may say بنات كبيرات but we'll have to wait for confirmation. My instinct was to say بنات كبار but I'm not so sure about it now that you bring it up.


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## elroy

Sidjanga said:


> قناني كبار - instead of قناني كبيرة
> or
> طاولات طوال - instead of طاولات طويلة,
> 
> for example, and equally بنات كبار ?


 Yes, yes, and yes.



clevermizo said:


> كل القمصان في هالدكّان غاليين
> All the shirts in this store are expensive (each and every one of them is expensive is the implication)


 Yes, but I would say كل القواعي غالية.


> في هالدكّان بيبيعو قمصان غالية بسّ
> They only sell expensive shirts at this store ("shirts" are a group - they may also sell cheap socks, expensive pants, colorful ties, ugly dresses etc.)


 Yes again, but if I heard that sentence I would assume that they sold nothing else (actually, that's what the English translation sounds like too).

I'm really not sure what the rule is, if there is one.

I think Sidjanga is right, though, in that if the adjective has a _broken_ plural that's the one that's used.  Neither غاليين nor غالية are broken, so both are used, but كبيرات, for example, is never used.


> They may say بنات كبيرات but we'll have to wait for confirmation.


 No, it's never بنات كبيرات.  In fact, the word كبيرات is not used at all in PA.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> I think Sidjanga is right, though, in that if the adjective has a _broken_ plural that's the one that's used.



Interesting. So let's consider كبار with inanimate objects. Would you not have a circumstance when you could choose علب كبيرة instead of علب كبار. It's always علب كبار?

You wouldn't say for example, بتعرف محل بيبيعو فيه علب كبيرة (Do you know a store where they sell large boxes)?


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## elroy

علب كبيرة sounds funny to me, and I'm pretty sure I would always say علب كبار.  

علب فاضية, on the other hand, sounds fine, but there is no broken-plural version, so I'm inclined to agree that broken plurals are used predominantly, if not exclusively, if they exist.


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## Sidjanga

Why is it كل القمصان في هالدكّان غاليين but كل القواعي غالية ?

I don't know what the singular of القواعي is, but is it feminine anyway and that's why it's غالية , and it's غالية for the plural also because it's never ـات for inanimate things, even though masculine words _do _take the masculine plural form, i.e. ـين ??

And would you say عندي أسئلة كتيرة ?


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## elroy

Sidjanga said:


> Why is it كل القمصان في هالدكّان غاليين but كل القواعي غالية ?


 Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that كل القواعي غاليين would be wrong, just that كل القواعي غالية would not be.


> I don't know what the singular of القواعي is, but is it feminine anyway and that's why it's غالية , and it's غالية for the plural also because it's never ـات for inanimate things, even though masculine words _do _take the masculine plural form, i.e. ـين ??


 القواعي is plural and doesn't have a singular form (it's like "Kleider" in German).  It can take plural adjectives; قواعي حلوين, for example, is perfectly acceptable.


> And would you say عندي أسئلة كتيرة ?


 No, I would say كتير أسئلة.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> No, I would say كتير أسئلة.


And would you consider عندي أسئلة كتيرة wrong, or would you just not say it yourself but still find it normal or at least acceptable if someone else (another Palestinian) said it? 
(I've been told that عندي أسئلة كتيرة is a perfectly normal thing to say - well at least around here, and according to one person so far. Maybe I should carry out a survey for each and every new phrase I learn and see which version finds most followers. ).


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## clevermizo

I think this issue of how to use كتير maybe be the same as my question of how to say "Many governments". See this.


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## elroy

Yes, it is.  And my response is the same in this case: أسئلة كتيرة sounds somewhat formal/bookish to me.


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## Sidjanga

So to summerise:

Could we say that, 

- if there's an irregular plural form, that's the one that's used for all plurals, whether human or not.

- if there's no irregular plural form, the masculine plural or feminine singular form is used, where - depending on the adjective in quesion - one of the two is generally preferable over the other, although the other is not normally _wrong_.

- as for كتير, it's generally not inflected and precedes the noun it qualifies.

صح؟


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## elroy

I would say that's probably true in general, but there are probably exceptions as well.


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## Sidjanga

Revival...
Do you (sometimes) use the ـات ending for adjective plurals when qualifying the plurals of feminine, non-human nouns, perhaps حنفيات خربانات?


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## elroy

حنفيات خربانات sounds okay to me, but that could be because of the Galilean part of my idiolect.  In Galilean Arabic, the ـات- suffix is used a lot more frequently than in other parts of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, so other Palestinians may not agree with my judgment.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> حنفيات خربانات sounds okay to me,...


What exactly does "sounds ok" mean?  That you could just as well say حنفيات خربانة, and maybe also حنفيات خربانين?

- Also, today I heard that "عرب" is not normally used for women, and that you'd normally say ستات عربيات, and _not_ ستات عرب  - while it's obviously زلام عرب.

And what about non-human plurals in this respect?
Which form of the adjective would you use to qualify cars or houses as "Arab"?

- As for predicative adjectives: two or more women who are asked how they are would not normally say "مبسوطات", or would they?

So if I understand correctly and try to summarize what I've heard and have been told so far, you would say

الستات الفرسيات مبسوطات

but if you ask them how they are, they would probably reply

(إحنا) مبسوطين

correct?

- Similarly, as for participles, do you ever ask women وين رايحات؟ or is the plural form always رايحين, no matter who?


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## elroy

Sidjanga said:


> What exactly does "sounds ok" mean?  That you could just as well say حنفيات خربانة, and maybe also حنفيات خربانين?


 I would never say حنفيات خربانين (خربانين doesn't sound like a real word), but I might say حنفيات خربانة.


> - Also, today I heard that "عرب" is not normally used for women, and that you'd normally say ستات عربيات, and _not_ ستات عرب  - while it's obviously زلام عرب.


 Yeah, I would agree.



> And what about non-human plurals in this respect?
> Which form of the adjective would you use to qualify cars or houses as "Arab"?


 سيارات عربية/عربيات؛ بيوت عربية



> - As for predicative adjectives: two or more women who are asked how they are would not normally say "مبسوطات", or would they?


 Right, they would usually say مبسوطين.



> So if I understand correctly and try to summarize what I've heard and have been told so far, you would say
> 
> الستات الفرسيات مبسوطات


 الستات/النسوان الفرنسويات مبسوطين is used as well.



> if you ask them how they are, they would probably reply
> 
> (إحنا) مبسوطين
> 
> correct?


 Yes.


> - Similarly, as for participles, do you ever ask women وين رايحات؟ or is the plural form always رايحين, no matter who?


 It's usually رايحين, but رايحات is used sometimes (if all the addressees are women), particularly in the Galilee.


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## Sidjanga

Many thanks!





elroy said:


> حنفيات خربانات sounds okay to me...





elroy said:


> I would never say حنفيات خربانين (خربانين  doesn't sound like a real word), but I might say حنفيات خربانة.
> (...)
> 
> سيارات عربية/عربيات؛ بيوت عربية


Do you think there's a tendency to use the adjective with an ـات ending only if the plural noun ends in ـات ?

And what would you normally say? حنفيات خربانات or حنفيات خربانة ?


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