# με πονάει or μου πονάει ?



## oh_kristine

Γειά σε όλους

In my textbook I found sentences like:

_*με* πονάει το κεφάλι μου_
and
_του γιου μου *του* πονάει η κοιλιά του_

Shall I use accusative or genitive with πονώ ?  

ευχαριστώ πολύ


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## parakseno

> _*με* πονάει το κεφάλι μου_
> and
> _του γιου μου *του* πονάει η κοιλιά του_
> 
> Shall I use accusative or genitive with πονώ ?



As far as I know, it's the Accusative one should use.
In your second example I think it's because of the word order that _*του*_ appears twice (as a possesive pronoun: _*του* πονάει η κοιλιά του_).

I think the word order would be:
_η κοιλιά του __γιου μου __πονάει._
The object is not expressed here as in the first example:
(Εμένα) με πονάει το κεφάλι μού.

But I guess, it would be better for us to wait for someone more knowledgeable... I might be extremly wrong here...


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## avalon2004

Hi there

In this construction you always use the accusative (or direct object pronouns):
*Με πονάει όλο το σώμα* --> My whole body is sore/aches

What you are probably referring to is something like:
*Το πόδι μου πονάει*, where the genitive/indirect form of εγώ has a possessive meaning (i.e. μου = my, after the noun here)
So this would literally translate as "my foot hurts", rather than "the foot is causing pain to me"

_του γιου μου *του* πονάει η κοιλιά του
_As for this, I would say the του in bold is superfluous, but I am not a native speaker.

Sorry, I don't think I have been very clear!


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## ireney

Parakseno you are extremely right 

In the first example, με is the object. My head is hurting me

In the second example, "του" has more the sense of "of his" of personal well... pronoun (trying to explain without getting technical hear). It means the head is hurting "for him".

Consider μου αρέσει, μου πηγαίνει (I like, it suits me). In both cases, the object should be in accusative (αρέσει σε μένα, πηγαίνει/ταιριάζει σε μένα). 

The genitive shows who likes it so to speak, who it suits but NOT as an object. It looks good for my sake, for my taste. Does it make any sense? If not and you know ancient Greek let me know so I can give you some example of the dative used the same way


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## parakseno

ireney said:


> The genitive shows who likes it so to speak, who it suits but NOT as an object. It looks good for my sake, for my taste.



Hope my grammar doesn't fail me now... 
In Romanian there is direct and indirect object. The indirect object is usually in the Dative case. Not sure this is the proper English terms... here's an example of what I mean:
(Eu) îi scriu o scrisoare.
I to him write a letter.
îi - indirect object
o scrisoare - direct object

μου αρέσει = îmi place
μου πηγαίνει = îmi vine bine
So it might be that Greek would have had some similar "expressions" if it still had the Dative... As for Classical Greek, I'm not very sure on my knowledge...



ireney said:


> Does it make any sense? If not and you know ancient Greek let me know so I can give you some example of the dative used the same way


Well, at least please give them for the rest of us, mere mortals.


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## parakseno

loool, sorry about this... I forgot to add this...

Maybe an English rendition of
_του γιου μου *του* πονάει η κοιλιά του
_
could be...
"my son's belly; it hurts him."


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## ireney

Parakseno we do indeed have indirect object. This would be the case if we actually had to objects though 

Του έδωσα ένα δώρα ή έδωσα ένα δώρο σ'εκείνον. In both cases, του and σ'εκείνον are indirect objects.

However in, του πονάει η κοιλιά, μου αρέσει, μου πάει we only have one object. One could argue that it IS the same case, since the personal pronoun is almost always in genitive (I think we've discussed that in another thread?). 

However there's always the meaning. In all the above cases the personal pronoun doesn't only how whose belly aches, who it suits, it shows something else too.

Mind you, this is one of the most obscure syntactical cases and I know academics who still argue about that.


Now let's venture into AG and Dative, whose functions have been "split" between genitive and accusative (although the accusative, palying the "role" of dative is always - I think- preceded by to/at σε). See, your wish is my command dear friend 

*A* Ἐμοῖ δοκεῖ οὐχ ὣρα εἶναι ..... (It seems to me it's not time to..)
Impresonal verbs take a dative that actually shows who is the person doing what the verbs says . 

Μου φαίνεται is such a case (no argument about that in academia)

*B*

Και μοι την γραφήν ἀνάγνωθι (And read me the accusation)

Διάβασέ μου την καταγγελία. It's not a case here of read the accusation to me. It's read the accusation for me, for my sake

Same goes for
Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά. Θα σου τον κάνω να κλαίει. Του χάλασε η μέρα (got the AG examples from a book by the way, I don't have such an amazing memory)

*C* Γέρων γέροντια γλῶτταν ἡδιστην ἒχει και παῖς παιδί ( an old man talks the sweetest for an old man, and a child for a child).

This is the same function as in 
Του ήταν αδιάφορο (it was of no interest for him, regarding him)

There are others but I'll stop here


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## parakseno

Euxaristo para poly irrenoula!


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## oh_kristine

Thank you all !


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