# "In quantum" and "nefors"



## Vladimir Nimčević

I have a question or two

In quantum vero in antelato oppido Sz. Maria turbatae Tranquillitatis Publicae Authores, et Rei Graeci ritus Sacerdotes esse  perhibentur, Arsenio Joannovich, ejusdem Ritus Patriarchae, et Metropolitae clementissime jam mandatum est, quatenus Popas, et alios Graeci Ritus Sacerdotes sibi Subordinatos districtim, et serio arceat, inhibeatque, ne se ad has, vel etiam alias imposterum nefors emergibiles inter Incolas praefati oppidi Szent Maria Differentias ullo modo ingerere, et immiscere praesumant.

In quantum - I think that this stays for cum or quoniam, but I am not sure.

nefors - I don't know what does this mean.


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## Scholiast

Поздрав Владимир et consobrini!

Wow. Another difficult text originating (I'm guessing) in Hungarian legal or chancellery Latin of the 18th century or thereabouts?

Without more context, I cannot fully understand the text, but I think I can illuminate the two points raised by VN:

(a) _in quantum_: this correlates to (old-fashioned and legal) English, 'Inasmuch as' or 'Forasmuch as', so yes, classical (and legal) Latin_ quoniam_ is an equivalent.

(b) _nefors_ = _ne _+ _fors_: ''lest perchance...", that is, "just in case this matter/issue ever arises in future" [_in posterum_ > _imposterum_]. It's not classical Latin, but from _ne_ + _fors _understandable in the context of the legalities that Vladimir _noster_ is thinking of.

I'd love to know more of the provenance of the text, and its date and historical context.

Incidentally, from a purely linguistic point of view, 'Metropolitae' is a curiosity on its own.*

Σ

*Edit: see now my #5 in the thread.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Dear Scholiast, thank you very much for your pieces of advise and remarks! )

The text originated from the Royal Hungarian Lord Lieutenancy (Consilium Regium Locumtenentiale Hungaricum), which had its seat in today's Bratislava (Slovakia). It has been sent to the County of Bácska in Baja (today's Hungary).

I've found it in the Archives of Vojvodina in Novi Sad. It speaks about the quarrel between the Catholic (Croat) and Orthodox (Serbs) population of Subotica in 1743.

Here is the whole text:


Intuitu ausuum, et domesticae Perturbationis per oppidi Sz. Maria Graeci Ritus Incolas, Eorundem Sacerdotis, seu Popae etiam incitamento attentatae, Sacra sua Regia Majestas sua Via per Militares utpote: Instantias disponi jam clementer commisit: Ut Incolae supraefati oppidi Sz Maria, qui nimirum Civico Loci Senatui subesse nolunt, verum Militares permanere cupiunt, tales inde ad Militaria Loca transferantur, ac in illis Fundos ad Eorundem subsistentiam sufficientes obtineant; In quantum vero in antelato oppido Sz. Maria turbatae Tranquillitatis Publicae Authores, et Rei Graeci ritus Sacerdotes esse  perhibentur, Arsenio Joannovich, ejusdem Ritus Patriarchae, et Metropolitae clementissime jam mandatum est, quatenus Popas, et alios Graeci Ritus Sacerdotes sibi Subordinatos districtim, et serio arceat, inhibeatque, ne se ad has, vel etiam alias imposterum nefors emergibiles inter Incolas praefati oppidi Szent Maria Differentias ullo modo ingerere, et immiscere praesumant.

Quod ipsum praetitulatis Dominationibus Vestris, velut pro nunc etiam Comitatum Bodroghiensem in quo idem oppidum situm est, respicientibus pro Notitia, et Directione, praecipue autem fine eo praesentibus intimatur: Quatenus Politico seu Civili in eodem oppido Sz: Maria constituto Senatui, omnem pro conservanda Tranquillitate Publica necessariam, et oportunam Assistentiam praebere noverint; ne intermittant: DATUM ex Consilio Regio Locumtenentiali, Posony Die vigesima nona octobris, Anno Millesimo Septingentesimo quadragesimo Tertio CELEBRATO

Praetitulaturum Dominationum Vestrarum

Comes Joannes Pallffi

Ad officia paratissimi

Georgius Fabiankovics

Michael Domsics

The signature of this document is F 56-P-743


Sincerely
Vladimir


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## Scholiast

Greetings, one and all.

Thank you Vladimir, for this valuable clarification (#3). I have the gist of the thing now, though I am still unable to disentangle all the details—in particular there seems to me to be a grammatical error, in that 'Arsenio J.', 'Patriarchae' and 'Metropolitae' appear to be in the dative case, but in apposition to that, 'Popas' and 'alios...Sacerdotes...subordinatos' are accusative.

But that aside, the general sense is:

'By most gracious order of the Royal Lieutenancy: in the light of the recent disturbances in the aforementioned town of St Mary's, and in so far as the Orthodox clergy are held responsible for fomenting them, Arsenius J., Patriarch and Metropolitan of the Orthodox faith, and the other priests of the Orthodox faith subject to his jurisdiction in their respective parishes, are now earnestly forbidden and debarred from taking it upon themselves to interfere or involve themselves in any way in the disputes, either those current or that might arise in future, among the residents of St Mary's'.*

Does this make sense in the historical context?

Easter blessings to all and sundry.

Σ

*Edit: this is not quite correct. See now my post # 6 below.


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## Scholiast

salvete de novo

An afterthought:


Scholiast said:


> from a purely linguistic point of view, 'Metropolitae' is a curiosity on its own.



I was at first puzzled by this, expecting 'Metropoliitano', but I now realise it issues from a direct Latinisation of the Greek Μητροπολίτης [Mētropolitēs] as _Metropolita_.

Σ


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## Scholiast

Meus maximus error!

This has been nagging at me, but now I think I've got it!

The Patriarch and Metropolitan Arsenius is enjoined [_mandatum est_] that *he *is to forbid and prevent [_arceat inhibeatque_], as regards the priests under his jurisdiction [_quatenus..._&c.], from presuming to involve themselves in the disputes present or that might occur in future...

So I was wrong to think (in # 4) that there was a grammatical error. _quatenus_ functions here as a preposition—not a classical usage, but again, comprehensible in the context. And Arsenius is explicitly being made responsible for the good behaviour of the clergy in his diocese.

I hope this clears things up.

Thank you, Vladimir, for raising this fascinating piece of social history and Latinity.

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Thank you again for you quickly assistance and enthusiasticaly fascinating endeavour which is not seen these days, especially in my close and far neighbourhood  The texts like this haven't been read for ages, since they are very difficult to understand, and some of them are full of contractions, abbreviations, gaps, and even fragmented.

I am more than sure that quatenus here actually means 'that'. Here is another example of that meaning.

Nos Universitas Praelatorum, Baronum, Magnatum, et Nobilium Comitatus Torontaliensis, damus pro memoria tenore praesentium significantes, quibus expedit universis, quod cum nos anno, mense, die, locove datarum praesentium pro pertractandis altissimum Servitium Regium, et Banum publicum tangentibus negotiis Generalem celebrando Congressus convenissemus, fuissemusque simul, ac ad invicem constituti; lotum supplicuerint nobis nobiles Nicolaus, Joannes, Mathias, ac Emericus omnes Pozojevich, *quatenus *Eisdem super vera, et indubia sua nobilitate Literas nostras Testimoniales extradare vellemus, ac dignaremur; Cum autem justa petentibus non esset denegandus assensus, et secus etiam indubiam nobilitatem suam authenticis Cottus Zagrabiensis Litteris Testimonialibus, hisce de verbo ad verbum, ut sequuntur insertis. „Nos Universitas Praelatorum, Banorum, Magnatum, et Nobilium Comitus Zagrabiensis memoriae commendamus tenore praesentium significantes, quibus expedit universis, quod cum nos anno Domini 1820. 4a et sequentibus mensis Decembris diebus in Libera, et Regia Civitate montis Graecensis Zagrabiensis; Loco videlicet celebrandarum Generalium aeque ac Particularium Congregationum nostrarum solito, et usitato, fine pertractandarum complurium altissimum summi Terrae Principis Servitium, et commune Patriae Bonum respicientium negotiorum Generaliter congregati fuissemus; lotum et ibidem supplicuerint nobis nobiles Nicolaus, Joannes, Mathias, ac Emericus omnes Pozojevich Episcopatus Zagrabiensis Praediales in una Domo, in I. Cottu Torontaliensi habitantes, qualiter Iisdem super indubia sua suorumque nobilitate Litteras Testimoniales extradari facere vellemus; Cum autem justa petentibus non esset denegandus assensus, neque pateremur Recurrentes justis suis Juribus, ac Praerogativis destitui – Ex eo nos quandoquidem supplicantes praeter id, quod denatus ex hac Familia Nicolaus olim Pozojevich pro se in specie, pro Congenerationalibus vero suis in genere Litteras Testimoniales super Nobilitate e Generali pro 29a et sequentibus mensis Martii 1802 diebus celebrato Zagrabiae Congressu nostro, more uti viguit expeditas obtinuisset, Filiationem, seu descendentiam suam ab articulari nobili Familia Pozojevichiana usque armalium Divi Rudolphi Iidi Regis Hungariae Impetratorem Urbanum condam Pozojevich Abbatiae Thopuszkensis Comitem Curialem coram Generali Regnorum horum anno 1789. die 18a mensis novembris celebrata Congregatione Litteralibus Instrumentis semet deducente ope Baptismalium recenter productarum clare comprobassent , Iisdem supplicantibus subsecuta fundorum per Eosdem in Croatia possessorum pro Confiniis Excorporatione, ad Banatum Temessiensem in specie Icottum Torontaliensem emigrantibus, atque in praesens in obtento pro amissis fundis aequivalenti residentibus, super vera, atque indubia Eorundem Nobilitate, audito quoque Fisco nostro magistratuali, ast nihil in Contrarium obmovente, praesentes authentico sigillo nostro munitas exerandas esse ducimus, et concedendas Litteras nostras Testimoniales, communi suadente Justitia, et nemine contradicente prout et extradedimus. Zagrabiae Expeditionis die Decima octava mensis Decembris, anno Domini Millesimo Octingentesimo Vigesimo L. S. Lect. extradat. per Josephum Suvich mp. I.Cottus Zagrabiensi Jur. Ord. Notarium Emericus Lentulay mp. I.Cottus Zagrabiensis Substv. Comes Christophorus Blaschovich I.Cottus Zagrabiensis I.Cottus ord. Judlium mp. Stephanus Babochay, ord. Judlium mp. Stanislaus Chegetelo mp. ord. Judlium, Joannes Zenko Dstlis vice Judlium mp. Franciscus Xav. Chachkovich de verhovina Dstlis v. Judlium mp. Josephus Verhovacz mp. Canonicus Zagrabiensis. Stephanus Chachkovich de verhovina, I.Cottus Zagrabiensis Sedriae assessor mp. Nicolaus Valichich mp. I. Cottus Zagrabiensis Sedrialis Assessor Joannes Zernchich mp. I.Cottus Zagrabiensis Sedrialis assessor. Praesente Antonio Praunsperger mp. Ord. Cottus Fiscali, et sedriali assessore„ adaequate legitimassent; Hinc Eisdem Nicolao, Joanni, Mathiae, ac Emerico omnibus Pozojevich super vera, et indubia nobilitate sua, Fisci nostro Magistratuali nihil in obversum opponere queunte, praesentes authenticus Cottus nostri Sigillo munitas extradandas esse ducimus, et concendas Literas nostras Testimoniales communi suadente Justitia. Ex Gener. Congregatione nostra anno 1821 18a et subsequis mensi Junii diebus in oppido Nagy Becskerek celebrata.

Thanks for your blessings!

Happy Easter to you and your beloved


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## Scholiast

Hello again


Vladimir Nimčević said:


> I am...sure that quatenus here actually means 'that'


Yes, that makes eminent sense, in both the text which sparked Vladimir's original question, and this one in # 7.
Cheers, Vlad!
Σ


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