# za(karpats'ka) vs. pri(dnestrovskaia)



## Gavril

Hello,

The region of Ukraine that we (in English) call *Trans*carpathia is called *Za*karpats'ka Oblast in Ukrainian, and the breakaway state *Trans*nistria is called *Pri*dnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublika in Russian.

Are there different geographical nuances in the prefixes _za_- and _pri_-? E.g., does the_ za_ in _Zakarpats'ka_ have to do with the Carpathians being a mountain range rather than a river like the Dniester? Or, is this more a reflection of differences between Russian and Ukrainian?

Thanks


----------



## marco_2

Hello Gavril,

I think your first guess is correct: Transcarpathia is located *za *(behind) the Carpathians, i.e. a mountain range, whereas Pridnestrovye lies by the river Dniester (*pri *means next to, beside sth) - at least people see it like that.


----------



## ahvalj

The only reason is that Latin has the prefix _trans-_ that corresponds to the Slavic _za-_ (behind), but lacks a prefix that would translate the Slavic _pri- _(at). Interestingly, it existed in Celtic: the toponym _Ar(e)morica_ etymologically more or less corresponds to the Russian _Primor'ye_.


----------



## ahvalj

Also the reason is that Transcarpatia is a translation of the Russian term: it lies behind the Carpathian mountains when seen from the east, while the name Transnistria is created by Romanians: it lies behind the River Dniester (Romanian Nistru) when seen from the west. Yet, since Transnistria never belonged to Romania in the recent centuries, the preference of the Romanian term is explained by the abovementioned gap the Latin prefixation: it is simply impossible to translate _Pridnestrov'ye_ into something latinate. The very idea to translate the toponym is strange, but is probably excused by the unusual consonant clusters: likewise Crna Gora becomes Montenegro.


----------



## Apollodoros

Just to mix things up a bit but not completely off topic, in Slovak now Zakarpatská Ukrajina used to be called Podkarpatská Rus - Rus' below the Carpathians (all the way until 1945 when it was part of the Kingdom of Hungary and subsequently Czechoslovakia). The Hungarian term is matching (without naming either Ukraine or Rus' though) - Kárpátálja which literally means Below-Carpathians. From the Hungarian/Czech/Slovak point of view the region is below the Carpathians rather than behind the Carpathians, but we now respect the Ukrainian official name and call it Zakarpatská Ukrajina in Slovak. I am quite sure Hungarians continue calling it Kárpátálja.


----------



## Maroseika

One more interesting detail:  Transnistria Governorate (1941-1944) was translated in Russian as Заднестровье (Zadnestrovje) - the calque of Transnistria. But even before that Bessarabia also was sometimes called in Russian Заднестровье.
Thus, Заднестровье was used from two opposite points of views - from West and from East.


----------



## AndrasBP

Apollodoros said:


> I am quite sure Hungarians continue calling it Kárpátálja.



Yes, we do call it Kárpát*alja*, and we also say Alpok*alja*, Mátra*alja*, Mecsek*alja*, which literally mean "the bottom part of" the mountain range in question.


----------



## Dunav

Latin had a preposition "apud" - among, at - so what's wrong with calling it Apudnistria?


----------



## ahvalj

Dunav said:


> Latin had a preposition "apud" - among, at - so what's wrong with calling it Apudnistria?


The problem is that Latin didn't use _apud_ as a prefix (compare with Slavic, where _kъ_ exists as a preposition but is virtually non-existent as a prefix: Russian, e. g., has probably only one word with it: _закоулок_).


----------



## ahvalj

In principle, one could have used the Roman model with _cis-/trans- (Gallia Cisalpina/Gallia Transalpina)_, but it would have left the question what is the reference point — Romania (then Moldavia is _Cistyria_ as opposed to _Transtyria, _from the classical _Tyras _"Dniester") or Russia (then the terms should be reversed). Plus, in English this would resemble the later toponym _Styria_. Thus, if/when Transnistria becomes formally independent, I would suggest to call it simply _Dniestria_ in English.


----------



## vianie

Toponym-wise, the _Carpathian Rus'/Ruthenia/Ukraine_ is actually _*Trans*carpathian Rus'/Ruthenia/Ukraine_.

_*Sub*carpathia / Karpaten*vor*land / *При*карпаття (*Pry*karpattia, *Cis*carpathia)_ lies at the outer base of the Carpathian arc.


----------



## klemen

ahvalj said:


> The only reason is that Latin has the prefix _trans-_ that corresponds to the Slavic _za-_ (behind), but lacks a prefix that would translate the Slavic _pri- _(at). Interestingly, it existed in Celtic: the toponym _Ar(e)morica_ etymologically more or less corresponds to the Russian _Primor'ye_.


I thought that latin word for slavic prefix pri- is cis- (as opposite of trans-).


----------



## ahvalj

klemen said:


> I thought that latin word for slavic prefix pri- is cis- (as opposite of trans-).


_Cis_- means "at this side" as opposed to _trans_- "through>behind". The Slavic _pri_ means "at", so we get the following picture:
_Gallia Cisalpina_ — _Predalьpьjьskaja Galьja_
_Gallia Transalpina_ — _Zaalьpьjьskaja Galьja_
no Latin correspondence — _Prialьpьjьskaja Galьja_ (=the entire Alpine region)
(Slavic examples are given in Old Church Slavonic for neutrality).


----------



## ahvalj

I've corrected one of the examples from my yesterday post. Actually, all three variants are in use in Russian:
_Предкавказье/Predkavkaz'ye, Предуралье/Predural'ye
Закавказье/Zakavkaz'ye, Зауралье/Zaural'ye, Заволжье/Zavolzh'ye
Прикавказье/Prikavkaz'ye, Приуралье/Priural'ye, Поволжье/Povolzh'ye, Поочье/Pooch'ye_.

For a close vicinity of a certain geographic center, Russian uses also the prefix _под-/pod-_ (_Подмосковье/Podmoskov'ye_), though not with the mountains or rivers where the direct meaning "under, below" might interfere.


----------

