# 言ってろ



## zebedeee

I saw this recently. 言ってろ is a contraction of 言って＋いろ?
Is there any difference between that and 言え?


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## Aoyama

言ってろ = (I am) saying
 言え would depend on context.


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## Wishfull

Hi, Aoyama
It is not 言ってる　but 言ってろ.


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## Aoyama

> It is not 言ってる　but 言ってろ


Absolutely RIGHT.
言ってろ= let him say (it)/talk
言え = say it


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## Wishfull

Hi.
I, too,  think the original form of 言ってろ is 言って＋いろ.
I think 言ってろ　and 言え　has nearly the same meaning. They're imperative and used as rhetorical.
言っていろ　is imperative, and progressive tense of 言え.

ばか言え。 Say the foolish thing. 
ばか言ってろ。 Continue saying the foolish thing.

=Don't be silly.


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## zebedeee

Okay, 言え is telling them to talk and 言ってろ to keep talking 

ばか言っ てろ <- I have seen this example before. 

勝手に言ってろ - would this mean don't be selfish?

Rhetorical, I see. I think I'm getting it now   So is it usually used to imply you shouldn't be doing something?


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## Aoyama

> 勝手に言ってろ - would this mean don't be selfish?


For a negative imperative to be expressed, you would have to have :
勝手に言わないで
rather than "don't be selfish", 勝手に/na ...(+ verb and context) means : have one's way, do as one pleases, be freakish, behave capriciously etc.


> ばか言え。 Say foolish things.
> ばか言ってろ。 Continue/keep saying foolish things.


all this according to context.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
Yes, rhetorical.

勝手に言ってろ。
＝You can say anything.  I don't care.
=You can say anything you like, but that is non of MY business.
=You shouldn't say that.
=勝手に言わないで。（As Aoyama mentioned.)


勝手にしろ。
＝You　can do anything you like. I don't care, even how bad things will happen to you.
=You should not do that.

I think you've learned already. 

And as Aoyama said, it depends on the context, if it is rhetorical or not.
Yet, I think 言ってろ is often used as rhetorical things.
And it is abrupt words, so Japanese-learners had better not use them.


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## Aoyama

> 勝手にしろ


 to be noticed, is how Godard first movie "A bout de souffle" (Breathless, 1959) was translated at first in Japanese (title changed a bit later). Real meaning in Japanese ends up to be "do as you please".
*勝手*にしやがれ A Bout de Souffle (1959) - Audio-Visual Trivia - 
J.L. *Godard* Pointing at Michel Alfred Hitchcock（ヒッチコック）はカメオ出演で有名ですが、「勝手にしやがれ」でも監督の*ゴダール*が密告男の役で *...* ("*勝手にしろ*！"とか"息が詰まった"）」とは言ってるがタイトルは「Breathless（息切れした）」


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## Flaminius

I am not sure if grammar books agree with what I feel, but I find _V-ro_ and _V-e_ somewhat different in their functions.



> ばか言え。 Say foolish things.


It does not sound to me an imperative.  Gibberish has already been uttered before this statement.  An imperative, even a rhetorical one, would not affect that.  When one says this, one's intention is to make the interlocutor understand that one knows what has been said is gibberish.  "I have heard you say gibberish.  By letting you know this observation, I hold your blather in check."

On the contrary, ばか言ってろ does seem to me an imperative with a rhetorical twist.  "You can say your gibberish all you want.  I don't stop you.  You will see consequences yourself."

I hope I am not splitting hair...


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## Aoyama

ばか言え: Say foolish things.


> It does not sound to me an imperative.


 Not to me either. But it can be understood as "[to] say foolish things".


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## Flaminius

Sorry, but how regarding it like an infinitive promotes understanding of this expression?


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## Aoyama

First of all "say foolish things (!)" as an imperative would be strange. How could you _order_ someone "to say foolish things" (unless in a special context) ?
As you explained 





> "You can say your gibberish all you want. I don't stop you. You will see consequences yourself."


 or also "it's up to you to speak inconsiderately, you'll know better afterwards" ...


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## rukiak

zebedeee said:


> I saw this recently. 言ってろ is a contraction of 言って＋いろ?
> Is there any difference between that and 言え?



言ってろ is a slang. I don't think this phrase is worth remembering.

By the way, 言ってろ, which is probably 言っていろ, means to be feeling you can't be helped, not to want to continue our talk about the topic and to give up talking with you, but on the other hand, 言え means an order to say something.


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## Wishfull

Flaminius said:


> Sorry, but how regarding it like an infinitive promotes understanding of this expression?



Hi.
I think it is imperative, not infinitive.

It comes from
ばかを言うな　ばかを言いなさんな　＝Don't say foolish thing.


ばかを言え　バカを言いなさい　＝Say foolish thing.(literal translation) =Don't say foolish thing.(true meaning translation) = ばかを言うな、　ばかをいいなさんな。


In the movie, *Presumed Innocence*, 
Harrison Ford was asked by his friend's layer; "Did you murder your wife?"
He replied sarcastically, "Yes, I did.".

After that the layer said that Harrison Ford confessed himself, but the court-judge rejected it, saying, "Yes, I did" here means actually "No, I didn't."
"To say opposite is the matter of course around here, so it can not proof anything......"   or something like that.....

What I wanted to say is human-being languages sometimes use the opposite expression to mean something.

Another exapmle;
おととい来い（きやがれ）＝Come the day before yesterday. =来るな



I don't know its definition is "rhetorical" or "sarcasm", but it IS something like that, I believe.
What do you think?


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## Aoyama

> I think it is imperative, not infinitive.
> 
> It comes from
> ばかを言うな　ばかを言いなさんな　＝Don't say foolish thing.
> 
> 
> ばかを言え　バカを言いなさい　＝Say foolish thing.(literal translation) =Don't say foolish thing.(true meaning translation) = ばかを言うな、　ばかをいいなさんな。


Right. An _affirmative imperative_ (say foolish things !) would be strange, but a _negative imperative_ would of course be possible, ending up meaning :
ばかを言え = ばかを言うな .
Maybe now, the real question is _why does _言え = 言うな ?


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## Wishfull

Aoyama said:


> Maybe now, the real question is _why does _言え = 言うな ?



In Japanese grammar, it is called "反語法"

From 広辞苑

はんご　（反語）
１．断定を強めるために、言いたい意の肯定と否定とを反対にし、かつ疑問の形にした表現。「そんな事しるものか」の類。
２．表現面と真に表したい事とをわざと反対にし、しかも真意をほのめかす表現。朝寝坊をした人に「早起きですね」という類。

はんごほう（反語法）
強調のために反語１．を用いる表現方法。
...................
So 馬鹿を言え　might be stronger than 馬鹿を言うな,  although it is 破格(hakaku) (疑問の形にはしておらず、命令形のため）.


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## Aoyama

Enlightening.


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## Flaminius

I don't know what to call this construction, Wishy, but ばかを言え is different from "regular" imperatives in two respects.

First, imperatives (negative ones, prohibitions, included) can be used before the fact but ばかを言え cannot.  A sentence like below is impossible in the sense of prohibition:
*これから会うお客さんはとても生真面目な方だ。だからばかを言え。
ばかを言え is after the fact, meaning that it always follows a stupid remark.

Second, this construction is limited to a few number of verbs and expressions:
嘘をつく, ほざく, ぬかす, ばかを言う
Even a slight alternation is checked as wrong; いいかげんを言え.  I will be glad if someone add more examples to the list, but I cannot help babbling a tentative observation from this inexhaustive list: They are all verbs/expressions that cast a negative light to the words of the interlocutor.


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## Aoyama

Can ばかを言え be linked to an expression like [kodomo mitaina]mane ha yose !  ?


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## Flaminius

_Yose_ is a regular imperative of the verb _yosu_, or to stop.


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## Aoyama

> _Yose_ is a regular imperative of the verb _yosu_, or to stop.


Right.


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## zebedeee

A very enlightening discussion indeed  

Rest assured I don't want to use expressions like these in conversation. I read *言ってろ* in a story and just wanted to know what it meant.


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