# One must, one sings etc



## McBabe

Hello all 

I swear I tried advanced searching for something on a similar note, but the searches came up with nothing. So please feel free to redirect me if you know of an existing thread. 

I'm looking for a way to say "one must". I know, for example, "one can" is normally translated by "можно", but is there another formula you can (or one can  ) use for one + other verb? 

For example:

Я думаю что русскй язык очень трудный потому что "one must" очень хорошо знать граматику.

Do you use something along the lines of "it is necessary to"? Or some other formulaic expression? 

What about for other expressions with one/impersonal you + verb? For example: "To make someone hear you, you shouldn't speak quietly".

And (off topic), how would you go about treating the first instance of 'you' in the above sentence? Would you make it passive (to make yourself heard)? 

Sorry for any spelling errors or other mistakes! 

Thanks in advance for any help


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## rusita preciosa

*One must* in your context = необходимо, надо, нужно.

You are supposed to open a separate thread for the other question.


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## Axel_Carvalho

McBabe said:


> Hello all
> 
> I swear I tried advanced searching for something on a similar note, but the searches came up with nothing. So please feel free to redirect me if you know of an existing thread.
> 
> I'm looking for a way to say "one must". I know, for example, "one can" is normally translated by "можно", but is there another formula you can (or one can  ) use for one + other verb?


As a general rule (I mean for most verbs) we use the form of the third person plural, i.e. поют, говорят, пишут.
But for modal verbs we have impersonal forms: можно, нужно, следует и т.д.

"*you can*" is possible and often used (generally in plural, which is more formal): вы можете (ты можешь).
But pay attention, that these are possible only in instructions or the like, not in impersonal statements.


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## morzh

"One must" is not only difficult for a foreigner to comprehend in Russian - it is also true the other way around, when a Russian is studying, say, English.

During my school years, they did not teach us how to use "have to". What we knew was: "должен"  is "must".

And then there are various degrees of "necessity/obligation".

So, try to find some topic discussion in a textbook, or in a dictionary - here we will be simply trying to duplicate that, trying to think of all the situations possible, and then explaining what and how to use.
And then it will still be incomplete, or too scattered.

Very large topic to discuss.

--

As for your example:
Я думаю что русскй язык очень трудный потому что "one must" очень хорошо знать граматику.

Here you need to use an impersonal verb: "нужно", "требуется", "следует", "должно" (obsolete - if you encounter it).

Я думаю, что русский язык очень трудный потому, что *требуется* (*нужно*) очень хорошо знать граматику.


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## Axel_Carvalho

morzh said:


> Я думаю, что русский язык очень трудный потому, что *требуется* (*нужно*) очень хорошо знать граматику.


Just one note to this sentence: 
*требуется *is to pass exam on the subject "Russian language" well, *нужно *if one wants to know the language


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## dec-sev

McBabe said:


> Я думаю что русскй язык очень трудный потому что "one must" очень хорошо знать грамматику.


Sorry but your example is not quite good, I believe. What you're actually saying is "I think that Russian is difficult _because one must know_ the grammar well" which makes little sense. You may say that Russian is difficult because of its grammar which is difficult indeed, but not because one must know it well".
I guess you tried to say "Russian grammar is very difficult and one must know it well in order to master this difficult language" or something like that.
In this case it would be "Русская грамматика очень сложная, и нужно знать её хорошо, чтобы..."
You can use all the words mentioned by Rusita. "необходимо" sounds a bit formal, though.


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## Ottilie

> Я думаю, что русский язык очень трудный потому, что требуется (нужно) очень хорошо знать граматику.



На мой взгляд, ''требуется'' тут ни при чем,ведь никто не обязан/никого не заставляют выучить грамматику,а скорее всего вот это вот желание выучить ее как раз связанноe  с его собственным выбором

К тому же,если имеется в виду ''необходимо для того,чтобы'',вообще-то можно  говорить ''*Русский язык очень трудный,именно поэтому требуется хорошее знание грамматики*.''


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## morzh

Axel_Carvalho said:


> Just one note to this sentence:
> *требуется *is to pass exam on the subject "Russian language" well, *нужно *if one wants to know the language



It's not that important here as we are talking on the subject of "need/necessity/must/obligation" etc.

Also, there is very fine difference between "нужно/требуется", as both stand for pretty strong degree of necessity, and it is in accordance with a speaking person's understanding of that degree, that the choice will be made.

I can say "чтобы рассчитать эту схему, требуется хорошее понимание теории цепей", and I can also say ".....нужно хорошо понимать.....". I don't think either one is illegal or out of proper style.


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## Ottilie

Полностью согласна с тем,что эти 2 примера означают одно и то же,однако разница в том,что ''требуется'' более формальное по сравнению с ''нужно'',если не ошибаюсь


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## morzh

Ottilie said:


> Полностью согласна с тем,что эти 2 примера означают одно и то же,однако разница в том,что ''требуется'' более формальное по сравнению с ''нужно'',если не ошибаюсь



Да, "требуется" - несколько более формальное слово.


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## McBabe

Thank you all for your contributions! And apologies for taking a while to reply, have been away for a few days.



Axel_Carvalho said:


> "*you can*" is possible and often used (generally in plural, which is more formal): вы можете (ты можешь).
> But pay attention, that these are possible only in instructions or the like, not in impersonal statements.



Could you give me an example of this? 



dec-sev said:


> Sorry but your example is not quite good, I believe. What you're actually saying is "I think that Russian is difficult _because one must know_ the grammar well" which makes little sense. You may say that Russian is difficult because of its grammar which is difficult indeed, but not because one must know it well".
> I guess you tried to say "Russian grammar is very difficult and one must know it well in order to master this difficult language" or something like that.



I was going to say  that I think Russian is very difficult because you have to know the  grammar very well _before you are able to construct basic sentences. _I  didn't finish the sentence because I wasn't sure it was really  relevant, and I probably would have chosen a wrong aspect for construct  anyway, and that is another grammatical issue  

 Also, I thought _должен_ was more along the lines of 'should'?  Obviously I bow to your superior knowledge, as my Russian is far from  advanced, but there is quite a difference between 'must' and 'should'. I know there is no 'conditional' in Russian (something which my brain still has to adjust to), but such differences in meaning are enormous! But alas, that is for another discussion  

In conclusion, you can use the 3rd person plural vaguely in the same manner that English uses you/one + verb? 

And whilst Rusita says I must open another thread for my second question, I think it is still relevant? Admittedly I did say it was off topic in my post, however I have changed my mind! It is still on the subject of how you would translate 'you/one', but obviously as it is in a different case in my example of "To make someone hear you, you must..", the answer to how to formulate such questions would be different.

Please pardon my slight ramblings, but for a native English speaker (as I'm sure many of you know), even with knowledge of other languages, the first Slavic one is hard to crack, and I want to make sure I fully understand how to forumlate certain structures 

Thanks again!


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## morzh

McBabe said:


> ...I think Russian is very difficult because you have to know the  grammar very well _before you are able to construct basic sentences. _



*Translation:* Я думаю, что русский труден потому, что для того, чтобы составлять даже очень простые предложения, нужно очень хорошо знать правила.

(I used impersonal. But personal can also be used. But I prefer the former.)



McBabe said:


> I  didn't finish the sentence because I wasn't sure it was really  relevant, and I probably would have chosen a wrong aspect for construct  anyway, and that is another grammatical issue
> 
> Thanks again!




As in any language you don't know well (same goes for those you do know well, but for the others -  especially so), it pays to presume that the proper translation will depend on the whole sentence, and even on the context the sentence is used in, so the more you put down, the better the chance of 1) getting the right answer the first time, and 2) people not scolding you for not for not doing so.


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## McBabe

morzh said:


> As in any language you don't know well (same goes for those you do know well, but for the others -  especially so), it pays to presume that the proper translation will depend on the whole sentence, and even on the context the sentence is used in, so the more you put down, the better the chance of 1) getting the right answer the first time, and 2) people not scolding you for not for not doing so.



True, but given that I wasn't asking for a translation for a whole sentence, just a particular construction, I thought it would be easier not to include a bit which I didn't think was especially relevant and that might cause more discussion than the actual answer I wanted. 

In addition, it is pretty difficult not to be scolded by at least one person per thread at WR, and I thought that that information was irrelevant, and thus would have been scolded for that. Or would have been scolded for not providing an attempt at translation for the bit of the sentence which I hadn't included, etc, etc. 

Maybe for my next 1000 questions about Russian I'll find a way to keep everyone happy!


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## dec-sev

McBabe said:


> Also, I thought _должен_ was more along the lines of 'should'?  Obviously I bow to your superior knowledge, as my Russian is far from  advanced, but there is quite a difference between 'must' and 'should'. I know there is no 'conditional' in Russian (something which my brain still has to adjust to), but such differences in meaning are enormous! But alas, that is for another discussion


 I guess that many are aware of the difference between  "you should" and "you must",but we can limit our discussion to "one must" vs. "one should". If you explain the difference between the two,  how they are used, _examples_, etc. we will try to exaplain it to you how to express the two in Russian. 
I know the difference between "you must finish the work by 10" and "you should finish your work by 10", but I'm not sure if the difference between "one must behave oneself" and "one should behave oneself" is that huge. My be the examples are not good and not idiomatic at all but nothing else comes to my mind at the moment.


McBabe said:


> ..."To make someone hear you, you must..", the answer to how to formulate such questions would be different..


... чтобы тебя услышали. 
You must what?


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## McBabe

*<...>*

My example sentence used the phrase one must, but generally my question was on the construction of you/one + verb, which was not something that can be got around by other formulae, ie, "you can" can be "it is possible", "you must" can be "it is needed/necessary" etc.

For example "You work to earn money", "You should learn French if you want to live in France" etc. From an earlier post, Axel Carvalho said you can use third person plural by itself to convey this. Can this be used in parallel with the English usage, or is it to be used with caution?


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## Mtasya

Just a little confused about the "you" question. Do you actually use it in the same sense as "one must"? If yes, then translating is easy - just use present tense for the 2nd person  the one you'd use for "you" but skip the actual you part - just the verb. For example: "one/you has/have to speak up if wants/you want to be heard" - "(если хочешь,) Чтобы тебя услышали - говори громче" or "нужно говорить громче, чтобы тебя услышали". Just as long as you skip "ты" part, the sentense will have a meaning of general rule (as well as direct advice to your converser). If you say "ТЫ должен говорить громче, чтобы тебя услышали" it only means you are telling this to a person in front of you.


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## McBabe

Mtasya said:


> Just a little confused about the "you" question. Do you actually use it in the same sense as "one must"? If yes, then translating is easy - just use present tense for the 2nd person  the one you'd use for "you" but skip the actual you part - just the verb. For example: "one/you has/have to speak up if wants/you want to be heard" - "(если хочешь,) Чтобы тебя услышали - говори громче" or "нужно говорить громче, чтобы тебя услышали". Just as long as you skip "ты" part, the sentense will have a meaning of general rule (as well as direct advice to your converser). If you say "ТЫ должен говорить громче, чтобы тебя услышали" it only means you are telling this to a person in front of you.



So it's just as simple as using the second person singular verb form without ты? 

Russian, my love, you have impressed me. Even easier than: "What...? Russian past tense doesn't conjugate?"


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