# С мужчином???



## marco_2

Doing shopping some days ago I overheard two Russian girls from a nearby dorm and to my great surprise one of them said *... и я встретилась с этим мужчином. *Is it a common mistake or some novelty in Russian I haven't heard about yet?


----------



## Moro12

It sounds more like a joke for me. I think she made this mistake intentionally, to achieve a comic effect.


----------



## LilianaB

What is the joke, Moro? I don't get it. Thanks. Do you mean the accent on the last syllable?


----------



## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> What is the joke, Moro? I don't get it. Thanks. Do you mean the accent on the last syllable?



The same kind of joke as эта мужчинка. Not too subtle, but still a joke. Maybe she wanted to underline his masculinity.


----------



## Moro12

LilianaB said:


> What is the joke, Moro? I don't get it. Thanks. Do you mean the accent on the last syllable?



I think Marco has underlined the last syllable not because it was accented, but just in order to draw our attention to the wrong declension pattern.
Should be: с мужчиной.


----------



## LilianaB

Yes, you are right, of course. It does not strike me though as unusually odd. The final sound is very subtle. It is not a full й. Some people may pronounce it wrongly or rather use the wrong declension, especially from outside of Russia, from the former republics. I do not think she did it purposely. There are a lot of forms like that on the Internet; I checked. It is the wrong form, but it is often used by people from regions other than Russia. I have contact with people from different  places of the former Soviet Union, so maybe this is why it did not really strike me. I think some people from Caucasus may use it, perhaps even from Ukraine.


----------



## Moro12

LilianaB said:


> The final sound is very subtle. It is not a full й.



This is true, the final "й" is quite subtle. But still, there is no way for that sound to be confused with "м".



LilianaB said:


> ..., perhaps even from Ukraine.



I have had lots of contacts with people from Ukraine. I would hardly believe any Ukrainian could make this kind of mistake.



LilianaB said:


> I think some people from Caucasus may use it



That might be possible. Or from any other non-Slavic republic of the former USSR. But I should admit that
1) they should most likely have some foreign accent as well;
2) if there were two girls from the same country, they would likely to speak their mother tongue to each other;
3) Marco wrote: "two Russian girls".

Thus,your assumption makes sense. There is a probability one of the two girls was a non-native speaker.
But I'm 90% sure it was an intentional "figure of speech" used by a native Russian girl. Indeed, many people sometimes add some "tricks" like that to their speech for the comic effect, especially in informal communication.
I can hear sometimes "моя мама и моя папа". Or: "Ты пойдёшь? - Я пойдёшь" etc. They are not grammar mistakes because of imperfect Russian, but rather "joky modifications".


----------



## LilianaB

Hi, Moro. please check the Internet and see that this form is used often, even though it is wrong. I found some Armenian sites and other sites. I think the shop assistant in one of the stores where I go sometimes speaks like that: I think she is from Georgia. People who listen to Polish a lot may also mix the form sometimes: it is z mezczyzna in Polish.I do not know what it is in Ukranian or Belarusian. The final nasal a is pronounced as om.


----------



## morzh

"Мужчином" as Instrumental is used mostly for comical effect, especially when emulating Caucasian/Transcaucasian speech.

In the same fashion:

- Мама, можно я буду спать* со светом*?
- Да, сынок.
- Света, захады!


----------



## gvozd

There is an expression where the ending -ом is used instead of -ой. I mean, for a comic effect. Warning! Contains mat.

Instead of "Трактор накрылся пи...дой" they say
"Трактор накрылся пи...дом"


----------



## LilianaB

Maybe she said с мужиком?


----------



## gvozd

LilianaB said:


> Maybe she said с мужиком?



Hardly. The sound "щ" is too loud to be mixed up with "ж".


----------



## marco_2

It was *с мужчином *for sure but I am not so sure if they were 100% Russian - they spoke Russian fluently but they of course could come from some former Soviet republic - I didn't check their passports.  So from your comments I can deduce it was not a typical mistake caused e.g. by analogy with a regular masculine ending *-oм, *but, let's say, a kind of occasional joke?


----------



## morzh

LilianaB said:


> Maybe she said с мужиком?



Liliana

At some point you have to give up and admit that there are intricacies you yet to have to learn in Russian.
There's more than one person here who says "yes it may be used for comic effect", and it is not theoretical, but first-hand practical knowledge of us, people who lived or still live in Russia for a long time.

Not to disparage you or anything, but you yourself have to know that. You can't be multilingual polish-lithuanian-english-Russian and know Russian the way people who grew up as monolingual. At least most times it is so. One has to accept one's limitations...sometimes. Your Russian is very good, but......


----------



## LilianaB

Yes, you are right. People who live in different countries and are not monolingual may have some deficiencies in a particular language as opposed to people who speak just one language. Do they really use this form of the noun in many jokes I wonder. P.S. Just the order of my languages is wrong in you post, but I do not want to discuss it: it is not the place.


----------



## viesis

ha-ha. It's a typical Belarusian mistake. So familiar to me: "з мужчынам, з Колем, з Сашам, з Васем". This peculiarity of Belarusian instrumental case is just transfered into Russian.


----------



## bibax

In Czech you can hear:

s maminkem (correct: s maminkou)
s tatínkem a maminkem (correct: s tatínkem a maminkou)
s maminkou a tatínkou (correct: s maminkou a tatínkem)
etc. (maminka = мама, tatínek = папа);

Also:

- Mohu ...? (= Can I ...? May I ...?)
- Moheš. (correctly: Můžeš. = You can.)

No native Czech makes such stupid mistakes. Still you can hear it occasionally.


----------



## marco_2

Well, I heard such endings in some remote villages of Western Ukraine, e.g. *з дівчином / з дівчинов *instead of standard *з дівчиною*, but I was surprised hearing them in Russian.


----------



## Moro12

bibax said:


> In Czech you can hear:
> 
> s maminkem (correct: s maminkou)
> s tatínkem a maminkem (correct: s tatínkem a maminkou)
> s maminkou a tatínkou (correct: s maminkou a tatínkem)
> etc. (maminka = мама, tatínek = папа);
> 
> Also:
> 
> - Mohu ...? (= Can I ...? May I ...?)
> - Moheš. (correctly: Můžeš. = You can.)
> 
> No native Czech makes such stupid mistakes. Still you can hear it occasionally.



Yes. There are some deliberate errors people do to sound funny and everyone understands it is not a mistake due to someone's poor knowledge, but rather a sort of "word play".
The Slavic languages are similar in this field, I suppose. I attended a rock concert when I was in Czech Republic. After one of songs, a Czech singer said in English: "Thank you very much" pronouncing "much" as if it were written in Czech (i.e. "mookh", Rus. "мух"). And I believe no one had a thought that he did no know how it should be pronounced in English. Everybody understood it was a kind of joke.


----------



## marco_2

Still I suppose *viesis *may be right: you can meet quite a few Belorussian students in my city.


----------



## LilianaB

Yes, Moro, I agree with you, but with the other example I really think some people speak like that, especially from Belarus, maybe even Ukraine and Caucasus. I talk to people from different places a lot and this form would not surprise me that much at first sight. Of course when I think about the grammar, it is wrong. In a word like Sveta and co Svetom it would strike me right away as wrong, because nobody speaks like that in real life, unless somebody who does not know the language well.


----------



## LilianaB

I don't think there will be too many Russian students in Poland.


----------



## viesis

marco_2 said:


> Still I suppose *viesis *may be right: you can meet quite a few Belorussian students in my city.


If it's in Poland, then I'm not surprised.  And Russian is the first language for virtually all Belarusians, so they can be easily mistaken for Russians... You can spot a Belarusian by such funny errors as "с мужчином" or by some local vocabulary. E.g. words like "шуфлядка" and "шильда"  are widely used by Belarusians and hardly understood by Russians.


----------



## morzh

viesis said:


> If it's in Poland, then I'm not surprised.  And Russian is the first language for virtually all Belarusians, so they can be easily mistaken for Russians... You can spot a Belarusian by such funny errors as "с мужчином" or by some local vocabulary. E.g. words like "шуфлядка" and "шильда"  are widely used by Belarusians and hardly understood by Russians.


М

Most Belorussian I spotted by their pronunciation of the words like "тряпка". They always replace "я" for "a" in words like this one.
"Трапка, веровка".


----------



## viesis

morzh said:


> М
> 
> Most Belorussian I spotted by their pronunciation of the words like "тряпка". They always replace "я" for "a" in words like this one.
> "Трапка, веровка".


Yes, that's an undoubtful "tell-tale" "р" and "ч" are never palatalized. 
But this particular phonetic phenomenon is quite rear among the urban population in Belarus.


----------



## Prower

morzh said:


> practical knowledge *of us*


???


----------



## morzh

Prower said:


> ???



I am not sure myself why I said that  I probably wanted to say "by us". Or "with us".


----------



## Manuel Lucero

Never heard such a form. Some people seem to like to distort words, so you had better ignore such specimens.


----------



## Explorer41

Manuel Lucero said:


> Never heard such a form. Some people seem to like to distort words, so you had better ignore such specimens.


"Ignore the world, my darling, it's too cruel for your eyes" 

They are not very "specimens", in fact; they just feel themselves free in streets to speak the foolish way, and good  . This freedom is very far from being the worst freedom of our world -- the freedom to kill and destroy.


----------



## LilianaB

I just think these were Belarusian girls speaking: many people from Belarus speak like that, and it is not considered a mistake in their version of Russian. It could have even been Belarusian.


----------



## Natalisha

LilianaB said:


> I just think these were Belarusian girls speaking: many people from Belarus speak like that, and it is not considered a mistake in their version of Russian. It could have even been Belarusian.


 I can't agree, I know a lot of Belarusians but I've never heard 'с мужчином' from them. If they were girls, they must have used that form as a joke. Otherwise they were speaking Belarusian and said 'з мужчынам' which doesn't sound like the Russian form at all (with clearly pronounced 'з' and hard 'ч').


----------



## viesis

Natalisha said:


> I can't agree, I know a lot of Belarusians but I've never heard 'с мужчином' from them. If they were girls, they must have used that form as a joke. Otherwise they were speaking Belarusian and said 'з мужчынам' which doesn't sound like the Russian form at all (with clearly pronounced 'з' and hard 'ч').


I live in Belarus and happen to hear "с мужчином" quite often. It's called "трасянка" (trasianka).


----------



## morzh

Manuel Lucero said:


> Never heard such a form. Some people seem to like to distort words, so you had better ignore such specimens.



You can't say that. If people use ethnic-accent-based humor, one may want to know why and how it is formed. It is all part of language. No one says one has to use it, but understanding it may be useful.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

bibax said:


> In Czech you can hear:
> 
> s maminkem (correct: s maminkou)
> s tatínkem a maminkem (correct: s tatínkem a maminkou)
> s maminkou a tatínkou (correct: s maminkou a tatínkem)
> etc. (maminka = мама, tatínek = папа);
> 
> Also:
> 
> - Mohu ...? (= Can I ...? May I ...?)
> - Moheš. (correctly: Můžeš. = You can.)
> 
> No native Czech makes such stupid mistakes. Still you can hear it occasionally.



Могёшь and можут are sometimes encountered in Russian colloquial speech, very like moheš and můžou.


----------



## gvozd

Вот недавно я наткнулся на заголовок в одной газете. Я его видоизменю, оставив общий смысл неискаженным. А то что-то борьба за авторские права пугает.:d

Коля - моя самая лучшая подружка (из уст женщины).


----------



## Carrot Ironfoundersson

Может, подругу Василисой зовут.


----------



## gvozd

carrot ironfoundersson said:


> Может, подругу Василисой зовут.



В оригинале было самое что ни на есть мужское имя, я ж говорю, имена изменены:d


----------



## Carrot Ironfoundersson

gvozd said:


> В оригинале было самое что ни на есть мужское имя, я ж говорю, имена изменены:d



А, тогда понятно, а то я ж не знал, что Вы там видоизменили. Бедный муж...


----------



## marco_2

Большое спасибо всем за отзывы и комментарии. Сомневающимся скажу, что я уверен, что эти девушки разговаривали по-русски - я умею отличить русскую речь от белорусской. Но они могли быть белорусками и судя по контексту разговора они не шутили, значит это была, таскать, системная ошибка одной из них.


----------

