# 何と言う種類の宝石だろう、とても綺麗な宝石



## mdbvma

"大きな青緑の、何と言う種類の宝石だろう、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"

I sense that there are some implied words between "だろう、" and "とても" which the author left out. What are they? Is it perhaps "大きな青緑の、何と言う種類の宝石だろう*かを知らずに*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"


----------



## wind-sky-wind

It's just like "（大きな青緑の、）何と言う種類の宝石だろう" modifies "（とても綺麗な宝石のついた）指輪など."
If you can insert something, it would be just "か."


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

"大きな青緑の、*『何と言う種類の宝石だろう』と私が思うところの*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*『何と言う種類の宝石だろう』と私が思わずにはいられないところの*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*『何と言う種類の宝石だろう』と（私が）思ってしまうような*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*『何と言う種類の宝石だろう』と思わず興味を持ってしまうような*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"

I think it modifies *（とてもきれいな）宝石.*


----------



## frequency

The first two work like speech, md. It's something like speech without かぎかっこ 「」, so it's in the middle of 
'Oh what kind of..' and 
I wonder what kind of..(a sentence).


----------



## spu001

Nothing's left out of this line unless you think the author must identify who wears the rings and the absence of the subject in the sentence is regarded as, if any, an omission, which is the well-accepted wording in Japanese out of modesty since Japanese people don't want to point out someone's name as long as it's understandable without any subject, so it's a quite complete sentence with a parenthetical expression "何と言う種類の宝石だろう." I'll get around to explaining this.
First thing first, I, too, sense a sudden hiatus between the words "だろう、" and "とても," if I needed to fabricate some words to insert between them, going against the grain, I'd pull off expressions like ones that SoLaTiDoberman wrote, which is exactly right wording, but I'm sorry to tell you that your "何と言う種類の宝石だろう*かを知らずに*" doesn't make good sense.
But we do not need to insert words; the author wrote all the words that he/she had to describe in this little sentence because "何と言う...*と私が思うところの*" and "何と言う...*と思わず興味を持ってしまうような*" are not interchangeable, as the former doesn't clarify that you're, if you intend to describe the latter, very interested in the gem, so if you want to express a liking to the fancy stone you should write about that thought with the phrasing "*と思わず興味を持ってしまうような*," we know that the speaker appreciates that gem from an aesthetic point of view but never know if he/she is personally interested in it or not from the single sentence.
It's just a parenthetical expression punctuated with Kudokuten(句読点), though in formal writing you use M dashes in order to indicate that you shortly go on a different tack like English, you can also punctuate with a pair of kudokuten, this is, however, a little bit sloppy style like a chatter, i.e. 車を買うなら、まぁすることはないと思うけど、失敗したくないし時間、じっくりとまではいかなくても、かけなきゃね。 in this instance, 'まぁすることはないと思うけど' and 'じっくりとまではいかなくても' are somewhat unnecessary. the sentence can be completed without them: 車を買うなら失敗したくないし時間かけなきゃね, and the sentence you quoted can be perfectly completed without the parenthetical expression '何と言う種類の宝石だろう,' too: *大きな青緑のとても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた* ...quite conventional and too straight to arouse a reader's affinity toward him/her.
So, you could have another option to put '何と言う種類の宝石だろう' after the complete sentence but we don't want to put an emphasis on the tad ephemeral expression, if it's at the end of the sentence people think your interest is in the type of the gem: 大きな青緑のとても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。_何と言う種類の宝石だろう_。 the speaker never wants listeners to butt in and tell him/her "I know, it's an onyx!" "No, it's a black diamond!" "Let me see, to me it seems..." and blah blah blah and, if they keep talking on the fine discussion, then the speaker may say "Anyway... I'll carry on."
He/she just wants them to "hear through" the expression '何と言う種類の宝石だろう,' but he/she must inform them and us of the fact that the name of the gem is, for the time being, unknown even if it's revealed in due course.
So, it's not an attributive clause that modifies '指輪など' nor 'とても綺麗な宝石,' instead, just a parenthetical expression he/she just briefly mentions.

Spu


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

Spu001's interpretation makes sense to me. And I think it's something.

However, I stick to my interpretation.
Or I change my mind to anther interpretation.

"大きな青緑の、*何と言う種類の宝石だろう*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*オパールまたはサファイヤの*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*〇〇という種類の*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"

この「なんという種類の宝石だろう」という部分には、もしこの筆者が宝石に詳しかったとすれば、宝石の種類を述べることになっていたはずであり、
"大きな青緑の、オパールのついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"　と書かれていたと思うのです。
しかし、筆者は石の名前を知らなかったので、
「何と言う種類の宝石かは知らないが、なにさま、とても綺麗であることは間違いないところの『宝石』のついた指輪などを４本の指にしていた　と述べているのだと思います。

いずれにしても、とても「きれいな宝石」を修飾していると自分は考えます。

"大きな青緑の、『*何と言う種類の宝石だろう』と思ってしまい、自分には石の種類の同定はできないのだが、なにさま1つ言えることは*、*とても綺麗な宝石*のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"


----------



## Flaminius

*spu001*, _kutōten_ (句読点) is a general reference to punctuation marks including periods, commas, quotations and parentheses.  If you meant "、", it's called _tōten_ (読点).  I find em-dashes are too heavy to mark off such a passing observation.

何と言う種類の宝石だろう、とても綺麗な宝石 simply means that the writer does not know that name of the stone.  In a sense, it is the same kind of むかしあるところに, the typical opening of a Japanese fairy tale.  The difference is that a locale needs to be specified in order for the story to unfold whereas the name of a pretty stone may be trivial to the story.  This gives much room as to why the author brought it up in the first place.  It is up to the reader to emphasize on the narrator's curiosity in the stone like *SLTD* or to take little note of it like *Spu*.


----------



## YangMuye

Does 何と言う種類の宝石だろう directly modify 宝石, or is it just a parenthetical?
I thought it was just subconsciously uttered, used to fill the pause before the speaker could find the appropriately word. Apparently, the speaker didn't find a satisfying word he wanted, and just said “きれいな宝石” instead.
Maybe this 何…であろう is more like ええと or どうやら grammatically.


----------



## spu001

> "大きな青緑の、オパールまたはサファイヤの、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
> "大きな青緑の、〇〇という種類の、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"


If it's the case that both of "大きな青緑の" and "何と言う種類の宝石だろう/オパールまたはサファイヤの etc." are indeed modifiers  those punctuation marks that marks off the "second modifier" no longer mean anything. you can also write "*大きな青緑のオパールまたはサファイヤのとても綺麗な宝石*" and if you read it out it sounds butter smooth whereas on the line with punctuation marks you have to pause a second, that's why we sense a sudden hiatus. I don't think that we have choices to ignore the punctuation marks and avoid a split second of meaningless silence. the pause means something.
Parenthetical expressions always need punctuation, never treat them like punks. we can confidently stop at them to mark off.
I should give my two cents' worth for punctuation's sake, but I, for one, like your interpretation.

P.S. my teacher in elementary school told me, 'you should pause for one second at '、' punctuation.



> _kutōten_ (句読点) is a general reference to punctuation marks including periods, commas, quotations and parentheses. If you meant "、", it's called _tōten_ (読点). I find em-dashes are too heavy to mark off such a passing observation.


I meant *punctuation*, not only '、(touten)' and I wrote 'in formal writing you use M dashes' that's because I wanted to explain Japanese punctuation marks also function to mark off like English counterparts. punctuation includes (round brackets), <angle brackets> etc. besides, almost all my teachers preferred 'Kudokuten,' though 'kutouten' is considered normal and Shirakawa Shiuzuka-sensei might frown at 'kudokuten,' it's WELL-accepted. I could've mentioned how to read '句読点' for the record in my last post. but that's a good point, Flaminius.



> 何と言う種類の宝石だろう、とても綺麗な宝石 simply means that the writer does not know that name of the stone


Yes, it's plain to see, we sense there's an abrupt pause between "だろう、" and "とても," and we need to deal with it when we read the sentence out not ignoring punctuation marks.



> In a sense, it is the same kind of むかしあるところに, the typical opening of a Japanese fairy tale.
> ...This gives much room as to why the author brought it up in the first place.


I don't agree with that, but quite interesting! I almost like this point of view. they don't give us room to imagine because 'むかしあるところに' is completely replaceable with '楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり' or something like that. the narrator must draw attention to the story to start off the tale and that's all, in English you invite boys and girls to your story with a FIXED phrase 'Once upon a time...'  on the other hand, '何と言う種類の宝石だろう' must be mentioned but shouldn't be emphasized because some future events may be foreshadowed by this little gem ring. the "speaker" wants listeners to imagine on the gem for a split second but never wants to be interrupted.  "narrators" may be happy to stop at the end of every passage and when someone says "it's a black diamond" a narrator may say "you have good taste, well, we will see!" but if you speak something you don't want listeners to care about little things too much, plus this sentence sounds conversational, that's why I call him/her the "speaker." yes, we can imagine on every single word of novels and that's fun but we shouldn't imagine too much when someone speaks to us with one little expression, when someone takes the liberty of over-interpreting your words you couldn't be happy: "車を買うなら、まぁすることはないと思うけど、失敗したくないし時間、じっくりとまではいかなくても、かけなきゃね。" a friend says "失敗することないと言い切れるときってそうそうあるかな？" you say "...とにかくもう 少しだけ 時間をもらうから." it's not up to listeners, we should understand what people try to say. in the end, but in the first place, I don't explain this from "novel reader's" point of view.

Regards


----------



## Flaminius

spu001 said:


> I meant *punctuation*, not only '、(touten)' and I wrote 'in formal writing you use M dashes' that's because I wanted to explain Japanese punctuation marks also function to mark off like English counterparts. punctuation includes (round brackets), <angle brackets> etc. besides, almost all my teachers preferred 'Kudokuten,' though 'kutouten' is considered normal and Shirakawa Shiuzuka-sensei might frown at 'kudokuten,' it's WELL-accepted.


Granted that _kudokuten_ is fairly well-known mistake in reading 句読点, there is no such word per se.  It is surprising to hear that "almost all" teachers you have ever met in school condoned the error.

Formal writing in Japanese has many standards.  Not all of them decree the use of em-dashes.  Even by ones that do use, em-dashes are for more wider narrative gaps than a passing observation.  For instance, if the narrator inwardly wonders what the name is, then em-dashes are understandable.




> I don't agree with that, but quite interesting! I almost like this point of view. they don't give us room to imagine because 'むかしあるところに' is completely replaceable with '楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり' or something like that.


No it's not.  Substitute 楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり for it in the following and you will see what I mean:
むかしあるところに、おじいさんとおばあさんが住んでいました。



> the narrator must draw attention to the story to start off the tale and that's all, in English you invite boys and girls to your story with a FIXED phrase 'Once upon a time...'  on the other hand, '何と言う種類の宝石だろう' must be mentioned but shouldn't be emphasized because some future events may be foreshadowed by this little gem ring.


The fixed "once upon a time" and the famous いづれの御時にか are introductory phrases for fictions.  A modern version for the former is:
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....​These phrases assure the reader that the following accounts are fictitious.  They have an important function in the story.

In contrast, I cannot see what role the name of the stone would play in the story.  You are right that it may foreshadow what the author is going to tell further down the text, but it can be a narrative device to allude that the name is not important.  The storyteller controls what information is available to the characters and to the readers.  If she says she does't know the name, it could be that she wants readers to avoid categorized thinking.  We will never know without reading the story.  I would just say being open to all possibilities is more important.


----------



## mdbvma

Thank you for all of your interesting and helpful replies.


----------



## spu001

> Granted that _kudokuten_ is fairly well-known mistake in reading 句読点, there is no such word per se. It is surprising to hear that "almost all" teachers you have ever met in school condoned the error.


No words prove themselves "per se" because all words depend on their backgrounds, if you're a pedant dependent on lexicons enormous number of words around must be tagged "." Besides, my teachers never "condoned" any error, they just preferred '_kudokuten_,' now it seems that I have to champion them, they're well-educated and qualified teachers who go with the flow and they don't try to insist on obscure ideas like "You should follow the "rule" _hiragana _for _gitaigo_ and _katakana _for _giseigo_!" or "_Kakushinhan _is not a person who deliberately commits crime!" or something like that and not try to have conversations like "It's hard to dissuade him since he's a _kakushinhan" _"yes, he knows the pros and cons it seems to me that he's hesitating because he's a _kakushinhan" _"No, he doesn't hesitate since he's _kakushinhan." _"what???"
My stance on such words is that I go with the flow like my teachers as far as words are well-accepted like 'deliberate_ kakushinhan' _and the likes.



> Formal writing in Japanese has many standards. Not all of them decree the use of em-dashes. Even by ones that do use, em-dashes are for more wider narrative gaps than a passing observation. For instance, if the narrator inwardly wonders what the name is, then em-dashes are understandable.


I know. But that's a good point, since we, sooner or later, had to elucidate this as you and I mentioned em dashes 5 times (including this post.) thank you for explaining. but I just wanted to introduce parenthetical expression marked off with punctuation for the OP, I just mentioned m dashes as an English counterpart for introduction, so I didn't want to talk about m dashes so much.



> No it's not. Substitute 楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり for it in the following and you will see what I mean:
> むかしあるところに、おじいさんとおばあさんが住んでいました。


You can replace the traditional 'bell sound' with the 'happy' one, here you are, 楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり。おじいさんとおばあさんが住んでいました。 clumsy? we're creatures of habit, we don't want old school tales to be varied.
Here's other examples, 楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり。あしがら山の山奥に、金太郎という名前の男の子がいました。
楽しいお話のはじまりはじまり。浦島太郎という若い漁師が母と二人で暮らしていました。
All you need to do is draw kids' attention, you wrote, on your first post on this thread, "a locale needs to be specified in order for the story to unfold" and "This gives much room" but they really don't, there's no room. Be that as it may, as I said on a previous post, I like this interpretation of yours. To protect the traditional bell sound's position I'll shortly mention its benefits: sounds like lullabies, satisfies creatures of habit and can be replaced with another fixed phrase.



> The fixed "once upon a time" and the famous いづれの御時にか are introductory phrases for fictions. A modern version for the former is:
> A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
> These phrases assure the reader that the following accounts are fictitious. They have an important function in the story.


Yes, they do function as bells that tell you 'the following accounts are fictitious' but they have no room for you to imagine. We can imagine if we try but that sounds silly and the narrator may frown at us and may say 'Ahem... May I start?'



> In contrast, I cannot see what role the name of the stone would play in the story. You are right that it may foreshadow what the author is going to tell further down the text, but it can be a narrative device to allude that the name is not important. The storyteller controls what information is available to the characters and to the readers. If she says she does't know the name, it could be that she wants readers to avoid categorized thinking.


It seems that we're on the same page as for this, I wrote "because some future events MAY be foreshadowed by this little gem ring" to explain the very important point that the speaker doesn't want to emphasize the name of the gem for some reasons, my interpretation could be the case and your "she wants readers to avoid categorized thinking" could also be.
She/he is able to stop the time, fly like a bird and explode a building with just blowing a kiss toward it as long as he/she is in "his/her" own imaginary world but she/he doesn't do it, instead, he/she makes a short remark: 何と言う種類の宝石だろう.



> We will never know without reading the story. I would just say being open to all possibilities is more important.


True, I, too, stay open to the rest of the story for the future, but I should lay my cards on the table when trying to shed light on the talking point.

You're welcome, Mdbvma.

Spu


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

YangMuye said:


> I thought it was just subconsciously uttered, used to fill the pause before the speaker could find the appropriately word. Apparently, the speaker didn't find a satisfying word he wanted, and just said “きれいな宝石” instead.
> *Maybe this 何…であろう is more like ええと or どうやら grammatically*.



Now I agree with #8. 
I now prefer *YangMuye*'s interpretation to mine.

"大きな青緑の、*なんだっけ・・*・、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*ええっと・・・*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"
"大きな青緑の、*ええっと何て名前だっけ・・・*、とても綺麗な宝石のついた指輪などを四本の指にしていた。"

Now I think the bold part modifies nothing. It doesn't modify 宝石　like I said.
It may be independent from all the other part of the sentence.

Anyway, it's a matter of grammatical consideration.
It would be okay when we understand the correct meaning of the sentence.


----------

