# German Seher & Arabic Sahir "magician"



## CyrusSH

Was there a relation between these words?


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## berndf

A _Seher_ is a person who _sees _(i.e. a _seer_)_,_ composed of the verbal stem_ seh- (see) + _suffix_ -er._ No relation whatsoever.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> A _Seher_ is a person who _sees _(i.e. a _seer_)_,_ composed of the verbal stem_ seh- (see) + _suffix_ -er._ No relation whatsoever.



It doesn't mean simply looker or visitor but it refers to a supernatural power.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> It doesn't mean simply looker or visitor but it refers to a supernatural power.


And?

It means _fortune teller_ (not _magician_) and the derivation is absolutely obvious.


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## fdb

sāḥir is the active participle of the verb s-ḥ-r “to conjure”. /r/ is part of the root. In Seh-er it is part of the suffix.


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## CyrusSH

What are the origins of these words? The Persian stem _seh_ also means "to see": سیل کردن | پارسی ویکی

نگاه کردن این فعل بدلی است از سهستن یا سهیستن در زبان پارسی به مانا (معنای ) نگریستن و نگاه کردن در گویشهای تهرانی کهنه و شیرازی واژگان بسه یا سی (سیل) یا سه کو ( سه کن ) به فراوانی شنیده میشود. در لری کهگیلویه و ممسنی و سپیدانی گویند سیل کن یا سی کو از این فعل میتوان ریخت های سهستن - سهیدن و سهیستن را بکار برد نزدیکی بی مانندی به see انگلیسی و se ژرمن اسکاندیناوی دارد واژگان پیشنهادی برگرفته : اندرسهستن - درسهستن = درنگریستن - غورکردن برسهستن - ابرسهستن = مشرف بودن - از بالا نگریستن - نگاه اشرافی داشتن به چیزی فراسهستن = دور دیدن - آینده را دیدن - گسترده و جامع نگریستن به داستان یا چیزی فروسهستن = خوار دیدن - کوچک شمردن - کم دیدن - دست کم گرفتن


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## berndf

_Seh-_ is reconstructed PIE _*sekʷ-_. An original labialisation (_sehʷ_) can be deduced from Gothic _saiƕ_- (=/se:hʷ/). Apparent cognates include Latin _sequ- _(_follow_) which suggests a semantic development _follow with one's eyes _> _watch_ > _see_.

The Arabic verbal root _s-ḥ-r_ is discussed in this thread: Arabic سحر "magic" siHr etymology? . 

As far as I can decipher the text under your link with my dismal knowledge of Persian aided by Google Translate, it is a discussion about an alleged verb _S?Y?L-_
(no idea about the vowels). I don't see _seh-_ anywhere.


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## CyrusSH

There is also a thread about the Persian verb that I mentioned: Persian Seh (see)

You said German _seher_ means "fortune *teller*" and ahvalj said in that thread: *sekʷ- → Lithuanian _seku_ "I tell", Greek _ἐννέπω_ "I say, I announce", Latin _inquit_ "he says".

And Middle Persian _saxwan_ means "speech" and (with prefix _pati-_) _pasaxw_ "answer".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> There is also a thread about the Persian verb that I mentioned: Persian Seh (see)


Your claim has already been rejected there.

For my own curiosity: I don't understand why you bring it up again. I would still like to know where _seh-_ appears in that article.



CyrusSH said:


> You said German _seher_ means "fortune *teller*" and ahvalj said in that thread: *sekʷ- → Lithuanian _seku_ "I tell", Greek _ἐννέπω_ "I say, I announce", Latin _inquit_ "he says".


_Fortune teller_ is what _Seher_ (not _seher_; capitalisation is lexically significant in German) *means*, not where it comes from. You must understand the fundamental difference between a translation and an etymology. Different languages can express the same concept with words from completely different sources and they can develop radically different meanings for words with the same ultimate source.

But I understand your confusion. Also the German verb _sagen _and its English cognate _say _are reconstructed to be derived from the same root _*sekʷ-_, but not from the bare root itself but from some _o_-grade suffixed derivative. The PGm reconstruction (a bit less shaky than an PIE reconstruction) of the origins of _sehen _and _sagen_ are _*sehʷan _and _*sagjan _(though strictly speaking on the umlauted versions like Low German _seggen _can properly be attributed to the _-j- _form), respectively. From a morphological analysis point of view, this means that at the PGm. stage, _sagen_ was a causative (_-j-_) derivation of _sehen_. This implies the meaning _to make see_, i.e._ show_.


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## Treaty

I've never heard _seyl_ as a verb but in combination with _kardan_. I can't say whether there is a verb version of it or not. Some SW dialects tend to omit the final letter before consonants like _sey ko _or_ sē ko _as imperative but retain it before vowels, like _seyleX ko _with an accusative pronoun _X_. The word apparently exists in Dari dialects as well. In at least one Luri dialect, it is _seyr_. Considering this _l/r _ending *_sekʷ _alone would be an unlikely root.

_Seher_ is the literal cognate of English _seer,_ and comparable to French _voyant(e) _with meaning both "one who sees" and "one who prophesies".


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Your claim has already been rejected there.
> 
> For my own curiosity: I don't understand why you bring it up again. I would still like to know where _seh-_ appears in that article.



What was rejected?! Fdb didn't reply to my last post, Persian _sahestan_ certainly means "to see": معنی سهستن | فرهنگ فارسی معین whether fdb confirms it or not.

This thread is about German and Arabic words that I mentioned, German _seher_ means "wise man, sage", the word "magus" also means both "wise man" and "magician". It seems to be possible the Semitic word has an Indo-European origin.


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## Ihsiin

CyrusSH said:


> This thread is about German and Arabic words that I mentioned



German _Seher _means 'seer' and Arabic ساحر means 'one who works magic'. They are different words with different meanings and different origins, they are not related. This has been established.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> This thread is about German and Arabic words that I mentioned, *German seher Seher means "wise man, sage"*, the word "magus" also means both "wise man" and "magician". It seems to be possible the Semitic word has an Indo-European origin.


You were told what _Seher _means. You don't do anybody a favour by misleadingly tweaking the meaning in such a way that is suggests a relation that doesn't exist.


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## inquisitiveness1

CyrusSH said:


> This thread is about German and Arabic words that I mentioned, German _seher_ means "wise man, sage", the word "magus" also means both "wise man" and "magician". It seems to be possible the Semitic word has an Indo-European origin.


No matter what Semitic etymology you ascribe to Arabic ساحر _sāḥir _(which as said in the linked thread about سحر, could be related to Akkadian, Hebrew, or Sabaic...with Akkadian being the more popular opinion), it is clear that the Semitic root *(1)* never had anything to do "seeing", which is the original sense of the Germanic word (the "magic"-related sense is clearly a latter development, just like how English "seer" in the mystical sense clearly came from the literal agent noun "seer - one who sees (something)"), and *(2)* had senses relating to magic (or at least "charming") much earlier than any Germanic attestation of "Seher" in that meaning.

And if you are saying the Semitic word was borrowed from IE (which I don't believe in the slightest), it would have to be from a word that includes the /r/, so there is no point in discussing other forms of the word that lack this /r/.


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## berndf

inquisitiveness1 said:


> so there is no point in discussing other forms of the word that lack this /r/


Correct. This means there is nothing to discuss at all as the productive suffix -_er_ is not Germanic but an early medieval loan from the Latin agent suffix -_or_.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> Correct. This means there is nothing to discuss at all as the productive suffix -_er_ is not Germanic but an early medieval loan from the Latin agent suffix -_or_.



Very good point.


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