# give <up>



## selfzhouxinrong

I have a question for a long time.

Generally speaking："up" means move something to a higher position.
Why _"give up"_ use *"up"*? Giving things to people with high status, leave it away ? Is there any metaphor hidden in it?

By the way：
"break up", "split up" How I understand the"up" in these two phrasal verbs !
Thank you


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## Keith Bradford

Three possible answers:

Don't try to explain it, just accept that it's a two-word verb.
Imagine a pair of hands offering a sacrifice *up *to God; imagine a floor breaking into pieces by being thrust *upwards *by an earthquake.
Learn that these derived from Germanic verbs beginning with _auf-_, which became separated in two in Middle English.
Whichever of these works for you is a good answer.


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## selfzhouxinrong

Keith Bradford said:


> Imagine a pair of hands offering a sacrifice *up *to God; imagine a floor breaking into pieces by being thrust *upwards *by an earthquake.


Do native speakers really understand this?   

"give up" is very similar to "surrender"
"surrender" = sur- "over" + do- "to give", means ‘deliver over, give up’

At the level of meaning, Is there any connection between them ?


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## london calling

If you try and rationalise phrasal verbs and the like you'll get yourself into hot water. Just accept that_ give up_ means surrender, despair etc. (depending on the context).

Edit. _Offer up a sacrifice_ is perfectly normal English. Again, don't try to rationalise the use of 'up'.


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## kentix

We recognize the current meaning as one complete unit. Give up. We don't try to break it apart. When we are speaking normally, there is no time for that. It's no different than chair or any other word. Where does chair come from? It doesn't matter. Neither does it matter for give up.


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## Barque

selfzhouxinrong said:


> Generally speaking："up" means move something to a higher position.
> Why *does* _"give up"_ use *"up"*?





selfzhouxinrong said:


> At the level of meaning, Is there any connection between them ?


You probably know that many words in English have multiple meanings, and can be used in very different ways. Here, "up" _doesn't_ mean "to a higher position".

Do you analyse Chinese words as closely? I'm guessing you don't, though I could be wrong of course.


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## natkretep

I agree with others. Sometimes, you can recover vestiges of meaning from the particle (preposition), and quite often _up_ means 'completely' - compare 'break' and 'break up', 'fill' and 'fill up', 'finish' and 'finish up'.


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## selfzhouxinrong

Barque said:


> You probably know that many words in English have multiple meanings


Except for developed from different origins, the underlying meanings of most words are only one.
Most multiple meanings are made by Translation.
When I teach somebody Chinese, I analyze every word. Therefore every expression can be understood more quickly.
As the same, except for developed from different origins, the underlying meanings of most words are only one.
But because I am a teacher, I know that.
As you said, most Chinese do not know what I know.


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## london calling

Do you know what phrasal verbs are? Are you ware that _give up_, _give out, give back, give in, give off_ and _give over_ (for example) all have different meanings, which you have to learn and accept what they mean without analysing why a particular preposition is used?


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## dojibear

selfzhouxinrong said:


> Do native speakers really understand this?
> 
> "give up" is very similar to "surrender"


Native speakers know that "give up" means "surrender; resign; quit". Native speakers *do not* know the origin of the phrasal verb "give up".

Website *etymonline.com* says that "give up" has had the meaning "surrender; resign; quit" since the mid-1200s. So your question about "up" is asking about something that happened 770 years ago. Historians may know the answer, or they might not. Is that information written anywhere?


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## dojibear

There are some theories about the "give up" origin (from French, Latin, German) at this page:

What is the origin of the phrase "to give up"


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## selfzhouxinrong

london calling said:


> Do you know what phrasal verbs are? Are you ware that _give up_, _give out, give back, give in, give off_ and _give over_ (for example) all have different meanings, which you have to learn and accept what they mean without analysing why a particular preposition is used?


I don't agree with you !

For example：
give out = give sth out,   if you have written a book，You give it out，means you issue it, you make it public, 
How do I understand "out"? "out"= outside in space = public, opposite to having it yourself.

Can't you analyze "give back"/"give off"/"give over"? I don't believe it.

Every language can be analyzed, *because every language must evolve from metaphor.* 
If you don't know, we can discuss, but you shouldn't say "don't analyze."


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## london calling

I repeat: don't analyse. Learn the verbs as they are in context.


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## Barque

selfzhouxinrong said:


> If you don't know, we can discuss, but you shouldn't say "don't analyze."


I'm not sure you're following.

Your original question wasn't "Help me analyse the _up_ in _give up". _You asked why "up" is used though it usually means "to a higher position". All the answers you received were from that perspective--that that's just how it is.

If you want to analyse why "up" doesn't have its usual meaning, that's a different question and I believe there are other forums like one on etymology where you can discuss those things.

Your question made us believe you were trying to understand why "up" doesn't have its usual meaning, and therefore everyone answered saying it doesn't matter and that that's how it's used in "give up".


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## selfzhouxinrong

dojibear said:


> There are some theories about the "give up" origin (from French, Latin, German) at this page:


Thank you ! 
So，is it from *Gave up the ghost ?*
Somebody hand over the soul, then he lost control of his body, he dies?

so I "give up something" = "let it die"?
It makes sense, though I am not sure.


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## kentix

Just consider this.

Back down is not the opposite of back up.
Give out is not the opposite of give in.
Stand out is not the opposite of stand in.

Don't spend too much time trying to understand the deeper meaning of phrasaI verbs. Sometimes one seems to exist but in general they are what they are. No one wastes a second thinking about it while they are speaking.


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## dojibear

selfzhouxinrong said:


> So，is it from *Gave up the ghost ?*



No. According to the sources I read, "give up" (mid-1200s) is older than the Bible (1610).

But the phrase in bold is in the Bible, and that may explain why "give up" is still commonly used, so many years later.


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## london calling

kentix said:


> Don't spend too much time trying to understand the deeper meaning of phrasaI verbs. Sometimes one seems to exist but in general they are what they are. No one wastes a second thinking about it.


Precisely. Phrasal verbs are often not logical. It's pointless trying to understand why a given preposition is used, unless you are a linguist or similar studying the origin of words.


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## dojibear

selfzhouxinrong said:


> give out = give sth out


That is only 1 of 4 common meanings for "give out".

It also means "become exhausted" _Our petrol gave out and the car stopped._
It also means "emit or discharge"_ The suspicious package gave out sparks._
It also means "make known" _The boss gave out that he would resign._

give out - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


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## selfzhouxinrong

dojibear said:


> That is only 1 of 4 common meanings for "give out".
> 
> It also means "become exhausted" _Our petrol gave out and the car stopped._
> It also means "emit or discharge"_ The suspicious package gave out sparks._
> It also means "make known" _The boss gave out that he would resign._
> 
> give out - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


Are they different? they are the same meaning. They are all *metaphor,  *


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## london calling

selfzhouxinrong said:


> Are they different? they are the same meaning. They are all *metaphor,  *


Of course they're different. The verb has different meanings. Why do you refer to them as metaphors?


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## dojibear

selfzhouxinrong said:


> Every language can be analyzed, *because every language must evolve from metaphor.*


That may be true. But there is an important difference between Chinese and English.

Chinese has existed for 6,000 years. For thousands of years Chinese was the "language of experts" in its part of the world. So countless words migrated from Chinese to other languages (Japanese, Korean, and others) over the last 1000 years.

None of this is true for English.

In Europe, Latin and Greek were the "language of experts" from 1000 BC until modern times (1800). Modern English is a combination of 5 or 6 older languages. Modern English is less that 1,000 years old. For older words, we must look to other languages: Germanic, French, Latin, Greek, Norse, and Celtic. The origins of words and phrases in English come from those languages, not from English.


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## selfzhouxinrong

@*dojibear*
It may be complicated
I am sorry.
My English ability does not support me to explain this problem clearly. 

Although it may not be possible to find an accurate path of evolution, humans' perception of the world is the same, so we can find the explanation with the smallest conflict and with a high probability.

In the first time，why people express specific meanings in specific words? Only because it makes sense!  So what sense does it make?
I just want to find it.


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## selfzhouxinrong

london calling said:


> Of course they're different. The verb has different meanings. Why do you refer to them as metaphors?


 Aren't they different?

Thinking: You had some grain; now you give it out.
1.What are you left ? nothing. so your car stopped with no petrol.
2.Doesn't the grain like sparks?
3.The grain is not in your hand, but everywhere, now, everyone knew.

Can I understand as this？


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## Keith Bradford

I'm with Selfzhouxinrong here.  There is often an underlying metaphor in these phrasal verbs, and it is possible to trace the multiple meanings.  Whether it's necessary or even useful is not certain, but it's definitely interesting and I'm all in favour of that!

Give+up is the same structure as auf+geben and uber+geben (German) and sur+render (from French, from Latin) and over+geven (Dutch - Danish is similar).  This isn't coincidence.  It's because humans expand their vocabulary by metaphor and even if the precise elements of the words are different the thought-processes are the same.

In English *give up* has two meanings.  It can mean to abandon, to sacrifice (_give up smoking... give up one's life to save a friend._..) and I'd bet that the underlying image is religious: _up = towards heaven_.  The other meaning is to hand over posession, and here the upwards meaning is weaker.  It can be replaced by *give over *or *hand over* (_the army gave up possession of the fort... give your documents over to the immigration officer._..).

Does the average native speaker always recognise this, or even care?  Well, no, it's possible to learn English parrot-fashion without thinking about etymology or metaphor.  But where's the fun in that?  

(By the way, I feel that English may depend more than many other languages on metaphors of *physical or geographical position*.  This is clear in_ up, over, out, in, under_... as verbal elements and knowing this may be useful to foreign learners. So long as you don't take it as any kind of "rule". This is English after all!)


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## selfzhouxinrong

Keith Bradford said:


> It's because humans expand their vocabulary by metaphor and even if the precise elements of the words are different the thought-processes are the same.


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## selfzhouxinrong

Keith Bradford said:


> Does the average native speaker always recognise this, or even care? Well, no, it's possible to learn English parrot-fashion without thinking about etymology or metaphor. But where's the fun in that?


Thank you for your support . Your words are very much like a linguist. If you are interested in Chinese, I can be your partner&friend.


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## Oswinw011

As a language learner, I have been through your phase. There was a time when I intended to figure out each word's meaning so that I can memorize and use them better. But sadly it's a wild goose chase. I'm not trying to put a damper on your spirits, but being persnickety about the particle Up is like beating a dead horse.

Here's is a failed a attempt I once made like you.
Example: *The ring went off. (Edit: the alarm went off)*

I used to spend a lot of time trying to find out why it was not went 'up', but 'off'. Logically, if something is off, it means something stops functioning. Nevertheless this explanation doesn't fit in this context at all.

So later I just accepted the fact that breaking down some phrases to trace its etymology back to hundreds of years ago is nothing more than a futile attempt.

Just my two cents for your inference.


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## JulianStuart

The shorter words are often problematic because of their multiple uses.  This exacerbates problems for those trying to learn by tracing the original "meaning".  Up is a good example - in many, many uses it has absolutely nothing to do with physical position and is often used simply as an emphatic or to indicate completeness.  Hard to find good threads as examples but "I am closing my shop" and "I am closing up my shop" can have very different meanings.  In the first, I will open again (e.g. for normal business tomorrow) while the second means I will not (I am shutting _down_ my business  ). You can choose to stick with the approach or you can just accept some phrases/particles as you find them.  It is _up_ to you


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## kentix

Oswinw011 said:


> Example: *The ring went off.*


You probably mean "The alarm went off", right?


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## kentix

Here's another example of down versus up.

A sports analyst might break down the action of a game.

That means he will separate what happened into individual, smaller topics and talk about those parts.

But if something breaks up, like a ship that then sinks, that means it comes apart into individual, smaller parts.

So break up and break down can both mean separate into smaller parts.


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## Keith Bradford

Like I said, there's no rule.  But as it happens, _to shut up shop_ (#29) probably does derive from a physical putting up the shutters which were common on shops in the Middle Ages. They folded down to form an outdoor display counter when the shop was open.


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## JulianStuart

Keith Bradford said:


> Like I said, *there's no rule*.  But as it happens, _to shut up shop_ (#29) probably does derive from a physical putting up the shutters which were common on shops in the Middle Ages. They folded down to form an outdoor display counter when the shop was open.


Indeed - some can be traced and others not. Like closing up a wound with stitches  In my example, the up can indicate stopping business permanently, not protecting it with shutters overnight. But closing a business down is the opposite of starting up a business which obviously means putting up a shingle, but starting an engine "up" isn't so obvious


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## dojibear

There is a separate forum called "Etymology, " which talks about the history of words. 

In English, many etymologies (word histories) involve other languages. 

That is why we often don't discuss them in this "English-only" forum.


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## Barque

dojibear said:


> There is a separate forum called "Etymology, " which talks about the history of words...
> That is why we often don't discuss them in this "English-only" forum.


Yes. I mentioned that twenty posts ago.


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## london calling

Keith Bradford said:


> I'm with Selfzhouxinrong here.  There is often an underlying metaphor in these phrasal verbs, and it is possible to trace the multiple meanings.


Really? I don't consider phrasal verbs metaphors. And unless you're a linguist why would you bother to trace their multiple meanings instead of learning what they mean in context?


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## selfzhouxinrong

Oswinw011 said:


> Example: *The ring went off. (Edit: the alarm went off)*


Thank you for your reminder.
As an English learner, accepting it directly maybe is a better way for someone self;  As a teacher, I think it is necessary for me to spend more time to find the easiest way for students to understand it,
Maybe My ability is limited, but My efforts are cumulative. To find it is difficult, but to understand it is simple, That is the point.
A small number of people spend time to help most people save time; That is my wish.

The explanation for* "the alarm went off"
"off" means "away", *
"the alarm went off" means"let the sound go away from the sound source"
your thought about "if something is off, it means something stops functioning." is not accurate. "off" doesn't mean "stoping function".
*It just means "away", *
In the circuit, the connection means the contact of the two ends of the wire, so we use "on", If you take one end of the wire away from another, the connection break,  so use "off".   ( turn on & turn off )

Trust me, everything has a reasonable explanation, all I have to do is find it.


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## selfzhouxinrong

dojibear said:


> There is a separate forum called "Etymology, " which talks about the history of words.


Thank you for your reminder.


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## selfzhouxinrong

Keith Bradford said:


> Like I said, there's no rule.  But as it happens, _to shut up shop_ (#29) probably does derive from a physical putting up the shutters which were common on shops in the Middle Ages. They folded down to form an outdoor display counter when the shop was open.


Coincidentally in Chinese, We use "关起" to Express "shut up", "起"exactly equal to"up". As a native speaker I also don't know why use "起"
But my language sense tells me that there must be some possible explanations.
1.Maybe the ancients need to lift something to close.
2.Maybe we need to *set up* a fence to trap the herd.


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## Cagey

When it is part of a phrasal verb, we often call a word like 'up' a 'particle'.   This may help you do Internet searches for information.

Some links that may be useful:
MacMillan has published _Phrasal Word Plus,_ which may be useful to you, but it is available only for sale and seems to very expensive

However, this essay which explains the thinking behind the book contains a discussion of phrasal verbs and 'metaphor'.
Understanding phrasal verbs: is there a system? - MED ...​
This Wiki article is an extensive list of the many phrasal verbs that include 'up'. so you can get a sense of the range of its use.
Category:English phrasal verbs with particle (up) - Wiktionary​Each verb links to the Wiki page on that verb.​
Here is Wiki's overview of phrasal verbs: Phrasal verb - Wikipedia
It is followed by references to scholarly works that may be of use.


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## Keith Bradford

Look for ancient shops like this in China.






This is a mediaeval shop in Dinan, France, with split shutters which shut both upwards and downwards.


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## selfzhouxinrong

"shut up" for mouth
Maybe you should lift your chin to shut up your mouth ?


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