# EN: ugly, fat ashtray squats - adjective order



## leoplume

Does this sound good to you? 


I have to merge these four sentences into one for my English class.


1. The ashtray squats.
2. The ashtray is fat.
3. The ashtray is ugly.
4. The ashtray is in the middle of the table.


It has to be as short as possible and, of course, gramatically correct. So I came up with this ¨The squatting ugly fat ashtray is in the middle of the table.¨, but I'm really not sure about this.

Could you please tell me if it's okay and if not what you would say instead.

Thanks in advance.


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## Gil

My non-native guess:
The ugly fat ashtray is squatting in the middle of the table.


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## leoplume

Canard: That's what I thought first. But then I checked the order of adjectives in English; It says opinion comes first, so I put ugly before fat.

Could you tell me why you put fat first and not ugly?


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## leoplume

And thank you both for your quick replies.


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## Canard

wow I was totally confused. Not only did I misread what you wrote, but I miscorrected you. I was telling myself "ugly, fat" sounds better and even wrote a reply to that effect before I realized that's what you had the whole time  Sorry! Just make sure you punctuate your sentence correctly 

*the squatting, ugly, fat ashtray is in the middle of the table*

Gil: "to squat" seems too active to be a stative verb like "lies" or "rests." I get the image in my mind of an ashtray with tiny legs actually squatting. Then again, the first sentence "The ashtray squats" is equally bizarre sounding.


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## leoplume

Canard: Sorry. I don't speak English very well. 

Anyways, thanks a lot.


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## Cath.S.

À mon humble avis, Gil a raison et _squat_ doit bel et bien être le verbe.


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## Canard

Oups, je m'excuse... j'oublie parfois que l'anglais n'est pas bien compris par tout le monde ici  J'ai traduit ma réponse pour toi. J'espère qu'elle n'est pas pleine d'erreurs.



> Eh bien, là je divaguais. Je n'ai pas seulement mal lu ce que tu as écrit, mais je me suis ensuit trompé en te corrigeant. Je me disais que « ugly, fat » sonne mieux et j'ai même répondu avec un message à cet effet avant d'avoir compris que c'était déjà ça que tu avais écrit depuis le début  Désolé ! Mais n'oublie pas de bien ponctuer ta phrase
> 
> *the squatting, ugly, fat ashtray is in the middle of the table
> 
> *Gil: « to squat » me semble trop actif pour jouer le rôle d'un verbe « statif » comme « lies » ou « rests ». Une image me vient à l'esprit d'un cendrier avec de petites pattes qui s'accroupit. Par contre, la première phrase « the ashtray squats » cloche, elle aussi.


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egueule said:


> À mon humble avis, Gil a raison et _squat_ doit bel et bien être le verbe.


Et je parie que tu as absolument raison dans le contexte de cet exercice. A la réflexion, une troisième solution m'est venu à l'idée : the *squat*, ugly, fat ashtray....
Je dirais même que je préfère celui-ci aux autres, puisque « squat » peut aussi servir d'adjectif (plus souvent pour une personne). Je pense que cette bizarrerie avec « squatting » et « squats » provient tout simplement du fait qu'on ne décrirait probablement pas un simple cendrier comme ça en anglais, de toute sa vie. Et si leoplume met « the squat... » sur son exercice, il/elle risque de recevoir un petit cercle rouge dans son devoir, à moins que son professeur soit anglophone.


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## Cath.S.

Canard said:
			
		

> dans le contexte


C'est le seul lieu dans lequel les traducteurs évoluent, non ? 
Nous ne pouvons pas nous permettre le luxe de l'absolu.


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## Gil

egueule said:


> C'est le seul lieu dans lequel les traducteurs évoluent, non ?
> Nous ne pouvons pas nous permettre le luxe de l'absolu.


Ben là, tu n'as jamais été aussi divine


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## wildan1

_The fat, ugly ashtray squats in the middle of the table._


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## leoplume

Canard: So I should say ¨The squat, ugly, fat ashtray is in the middle of the table.¨?

But then what does squat mean in this sentence? 

And yes, my teacher is an anglophone.


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## Canard

Well, given how the exercise is set up and "the ashtray squats" is given as one of the sentences to use, the teacher probably does want a suggestion like wildan1's, even though I would personally never say "the ashtray squats." Just sounds funny 

'Squat" as an adjective means:


> 8.(of a person, animal, the body, etc.) short and thickset.
> *9.low and thick or broad: The building had a squat shape. *
> 10.seated or being in a squatting position; crouching.


Maybe put both and hope for extra credit


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## pyan

The word "squats" was probably chosen so that people doing it had to work out if it was a verb or an adjective. The clue to the sort of word "squat" is in this sentence is the "s".  It can only be a verb.  Both "is squatting" or "squats" are OK.  

The order of adjectives is usually taught as   : opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose.  

"Ugly, fat...", which seems to follow this guidance, does not sound as natural to me as Wildan's "fat, ugly...".  To make "fat, ugly..." fit the guidance, you have to say that "fat" is an opinion.  

("Fat" as opinion or fact could be an off-topic debate.  I think this list is still useful as general guidance, however.   It is only "opinion" and "purpose" which can be unclear in my experience.)


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## Canard

It's a weird thing pyan, because I went an asked my partner if "ugly, fat old man" or "fat, ugly old man" sounded better, and we both agreed on the first. Maybe the introduction of yet another adjective changes things? :/


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## leoplume

I had a English class last Tuesday. His answer was ¨The fat, ugly astray squats in the middle of the table. So I guess pyan was right then.


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## wildan1

leoplume said:


> I had a English class last Tuesday. His answer was ¨The fat, ugly astray squats in the middle of the table. So I guess pyan was right then.


 
See also #11 (What am I--chopped liver?!)

Hope you got a prize for that one, Leo!


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## leoplume

wildan1: Sorry I didn't see your answer. Thanks a lot.


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## Keith Bradford

Could I suggest that when the two adjectives are so similar in type, length and familiarity as _fat_ and _ugly_, most English people don't really care what order they come in ?

Remember, English is not rule-bound. When Pyan says: "_The order of adjectives is usually taught as : opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose_", she means precisely that -- that is how they are taught... to foreigners.  But this is only an approximation to the actual language on the ground.

What I'm trying to say is that in the case of _fat_ and _ugly_ there is little to choose.


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