# ذلك الكتاب لا ريب فيه



## Qureshpor

In the sentence, "daalika_lkitaabu laa raiba fiihi hudan li_lmuttaqiin", one sometimes finds the translation as:

This is the book in which there is no doubt; a guidance for the God-conscious"

Q1: Why not "That is the book...."

Q2: Why not, "That book, without dout, is a guidance for the God-conscious"?

I find this sentence rather complex to analyse. Please help me to understand its structure.


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## Mazhara

Word by Word Analysis 2:02


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## Josh_

I was going to explain the different elements that make up the demonstrative ذلك, but since Mazhara provided a link with an explanation (explained better than I could have) there is no need for me to do it.

As for why the translators translated it as "this" rather than "that", who knows. It was probably just a personal preference. Perhaps they thought it would have more impact, it would bring the book closer, make it more personl, in a manner of speaking, than using the more distant 'that.' I know that ذلك is a distancing pronoun (since it contains لام البعد, laam of distance) hence your question, however understanding of spatial distance often varies from culture to culture and therefore from language to language. As such one's understanding of the spatial distance of pronouns varies.

It may also be worthy to note that I believe in modern times the لام البعد and the كاف الخطاب (second person pronoun kaaf) have pretty much lost their original meaning. Concerning كاف الخطاب, this is evident in that the fact that the masculine ـكَ (-ka) is used invariably despite whether attention is being directed to a male, female, or group of people. In other words, all demonstratives that make use of the كاف الخطاب (e.g. ذلك dhaalika, تلك tilka, هؤلائك haa2ulaa2ika, etc), always use the masculine ـكَ (-ka) and not the feminine ـكِ (-ki) or the plural ـكُم (-kum). We do not find structures such as ذلكِ (dhaaliki), تلكِ (tilki), ذلكم (dhaalikum), هؤلائكَ (haa2ulaa2iki), or هؤلائكُم (haa2ulaa2ikum), etc., used. 

Truth be told, this كاف الخطاب thing at the end of demonstratives has puzzled me since I first learned about it. Like I said, in modern the masculine is used invariable, hoever, I'm not even sure that feminine and plural forms were ever used at all (even in ancient times) to any great extent. It may be a very archaic feature that had even largely become obsolete by the time the first Arabic philologists appeared and started codifying the language at the end the 8th century.


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## Fiorentino97

I think that, in general, deixis is tricky to translate. All three of the English translations here use "this" for dhālika. This site offers excellent word-level and sentence-level analysis of the Qur'anic text.


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## Mazhara

> As for why the translators translated it as "this" rather than "that", who knows. It was probably just a personal preference. Perhaps they thought it would have more impact, it would bring the book closer, make it more personl, in a manner of speaking, than using the more distant 'that.' I know that ذلك is a distancing pronoun


 
Thanks Josh.

The Laa'm in ذلك refers an indication pointing towards a comparitively distant object. 
The speaker uses the demonstrative pronouns at the start of speech only to point out and introduce to the listener and focus his attention on the distant object. And oral pointation may have parallel action of his hand rising towards the direction of that distant thing. 
And if he uses a distant demonstrative pronoun after giving detailed information about anything or person, it gives an emphasis which makes that earlier statement a detailed introduction of the subject.

English "that" indicate somebody or something that has already been mentioned or identified or something that is understood by the speaker and listener.

Demonstrative pronouns are definite in Arabic pointing to a specific, known object or person or concept. Therefore in this Ayah, I preferred to translate it as "This is that Book",  "that" referring to its predicate which gives information about its contents which are still distant for the reader since he has not yet read those.
In normal practice an author introduces his book and highlights salient features of it to the reader/audience.
 I tried to convey it starting from First Ayah Alif Laam Meem, introducing the Book.

So called mystery of initial letter and consonants


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## Qureshpor

Would this sentence be a grammatical correct translation for this sentence?

That book, in which there is no doubt, is a guidance for the God-conscious.


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## Josh_

It seems grammatically correct to me, however it seems a little unnatural.

Perhaps:

"That book, without doubt, contains guidance for the God-conscious."

Or:

"That book, without doubt, is a guide for the God-conscious."


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## Qureshpor

Thank you and everybody else for their kind help.


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## Mazhara

> "That book, without doubt, is a guide for the God-conscious."


 
The simple manner of speech is that the speaker makes that thing as subject of a talk which is known to both speaker and the listener/reader and the predicate is delayed which signifies ascription, some news about the subject. 

In Arabic text word "doubt"-Arabic equivalent شك is not used. With apoplogies from الجلالين , words شك and ريب are not synonyms.


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## Faylasoof

*ذلك الكتاب لا ريب فيه*

Most translators do have “_This is the book …”_ instead of “_That is the book …_” with reasons that are mostly understood as Josh explained above. 

But one notable exception is *Arberry's Translation*:

_That__ is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing who believe in the Unseen,_

(The Koran Interpreted)

There is however a small point I might mention here. In some books, esp. of بالاغۃ, you might see discussions of how in _fuSHa_ , a distancing demonstrative pronoun (like ذلك, here), may be used to create an idea / effect of reverence when what one might actually mean is “_this_”! 

For example, in a certain context saying ذلك الرّجل, with a distancing demonstrative, would indicate a greater respect for someone rather than saying ھذا الرّجل , although what really is meant is indeed the latter.  In this case the use of ذلك_ is stylistic_ and needn’t necessarily be taken literally. 

BTW, in pre-classical Arabic other forms did exist:
 ذاکم / ذلکم
 ذلکنّ
 تلکما 
etc.

So, ذاکم صاحبکم could be used to mean:
_Here is your companion! / There is your companion!_

But as these forms have now been extinct for nearly one and half millennium it would be best to avoid using them!


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## rayloom

Faylasoof said:


> BTW, in pre-classical Arabic other forms did exist:
> ذاکم / ذلکم
> ذلکنّ
> تلکما
> etc.
> 
> So, ذاکم صاحبکم could be used to mean:
> _Here is your companion! / There is your companion!_
> 
> But as these forms have now been extinct for nearly one and half millennium it would be best to avoid using them!



In Pre-classical, Classical and MSA. It's not extinct. 
Although in MSA, ذلك is the most commonly used form, because most of MSA speakers/writers don't make the distinction, nor have the distinction in their native dialects, and it has become so common, even though it's taught in grammar lessons in school! (as part of the "standardized" grammar we're taught).

In Classical Arabic, you can find such forms in the Quran, Hadith, and literary works.
In fact, the Quran is thought to always make the distinction, that in this ayah, it is thought to be addressed to the prophet PBUH.

Also you have from the Quran:
قال كذلكِ قال ربك هو علي هين (addressing Mary)
ذلكما مما علمني ربي
عَن تِلْكُمَا الشَّجَرَةِ
ذلكم توعظون به
فذلكن الذي لمتنني فيه

...etc

You can still hear it from time to time!
Especially in the Khutbas of Jum3ah, where the Arabic spoken is more Classical in style.

No reason to shy away from using such forms. I commonly use ذلكم in writing.


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## Josh_

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you and everybody else for their kind help.


You're welcome.



Mazhara said:


> In Arabic text word "doubt"-Arabic equivalent شك is not used. With apoplogies from الجلالين , words شك and ريب are not synonyms.


Be that as it may, I think that generally translators try to translate according to overall meaning, not word for word.

Thanks Faylasoof and Rayloom for the information you guys provided.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> *ذلك الكتاب لا ريب فيه*
> 
> Most translators do have “_This is the book …”_ instead of “_That is the book …_” with reasons that are mostly understood as Josh explained above.
> 
> But one notable exception is *Arberry's Translation*:
> 
> _That__ is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing who believe in the Unseen,_
> 
> (The Koran Interpreted)
> 
> There is however a small point I might mention here. In some books, esp. of بالاغۃ, you might see discussions of how in _fuSHa_ , a distancing demonstrative pronoun (like ذلك, here), may be used to create an idea / effect of reverence when what one might actually mean is “_this_”!
> 
> For example, in a certain context saying ذلك الرّجل, with a distancing demonstrative, would indicate a greater respect for someone rather than saying ھذا الرّجل , although what really is meant is indeed the latter.  In this case the use of ذلك_ is stylistic_ and needn’t necessarily be taken literally.
> 
> BTW, in pre-classical Arabic other forms did exist:
> ذاکم / ذلکم
> ذلکنّ
> تلکما
> etc.
> 
> So, ذاکم صاحبکم could be used to mean:
> _Here is your companion! / There is your companion!_
> 
> But as these forms have now been extinct for nearly one and half millennium it would be best to avoid using them!



Thank you.The point you make is also mentioned in the "Kanzu_liimaan" translation of the Qur'an by Imam Riza Ahmed Khan. 

Regarding "dzaalika_lkitaabu", what makes a translator immediately go for "This/That *is* the book" compared with the expected "This/That book...."? One reads in grammar books that the former normally has a seperating pronoun, "dzaalika huwa_lkitaab...".


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## Antonio Tavanti

[Merged with a previous thread]
Hi all.

According to all grammars I've read, "that is the book" can't be rendered with ذلك الكتاب, because this would mean "that book (is) ...". One needs to put the so-called "separating pronoun", saying ذلك هو الكتاب.

So, why is this line from the Quran translated "that is the book about which there is no doubt" (and similar)? If I were to adhere to the grammar rules I've learned I'd translate it "that book, there's no doubt about it", with what seems a sort of emphatic anticipation.

In the end the meaning is the same, but I'm puzzled about the grammar.

Thanks.


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## Antonio Tavanti

Cherine, I agree that the sentence around which the threads revolve is the same, but I think I posed a different question than the original poster of this thread, a question that seemingly I can't find answered here.

Namely, I asked how a compound such as [demonstrative pronoun + 'al + noun] could stand for a nominal sentence, since grammars of Modern Arabic forbid that.
To my understanding, ذلك الكتاب will always mean "that book", and never "that is the book".


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## rayloom

Arabic grammar is descriptive not prescriptive (as they say) 
They can appear prescriptive especially in simplified grammar books or for teaching purposes. Otherwise, grammars of Arabic have no right to "forbid" something that does occur in Arabic (Classical, Standardized and even Colloquial), such as the [demonstrative pronoun + 'al + noun] standing as a nominal sentence.


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## Antonio Tavanti

Well, not to be too fastidious about it... but who says that the meaning of that ذلك الكتاب really is "that is the book", contrasting thus with rules of grammar (however descriptive they may be), apart from us the readers?

Uses of language that stray from what are the ordinary patterns should be proved at least with further examples from sources of the same author/time/context as the construct in question.
So, is such a use of demonstrative pronouns present elsewhere in 'al-qur'aan?


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## rayloom

The differing opinions regarding ذلك الكتاب is as old as the history of Quranic exegesis and the history of Arabic grammar. So it's not just us the readers!!
Such usage doesn't stray from ordinary patterns!
Further examples can be found if you put the effort to search for such occurences in the Quran and elsewhere in the Hadith and Classical Arabic literature!


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## AndyRoo

Actually I think the literal translation is "this book, there is no doubt in it.." It is just translated as "this is the book in which there is no doubt" because it sounds better in English and the meaning is the same.


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## Antonio Tavanti

Thanks rayloom, that's perhaps what I wanted to hear. 

Maybe you already said it in your previous message, but I needed to know about it more precisely.

Yes Andy, I also thought it could be just the wording of the English translations. Perhaps it is much so.

By the way, the meaning of "this" instead of "that" for ذلك puzzles me less, since it is quite frequent for languages to switch between the two at various stages of their evolution.


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## Tracer

This is the Book,* wherein is no doubt*, a guidance.......(Arberry)
This is the Book, *there is no doubt in it*, a guidance.....(internet)
This is the Book *about which there is no doubt*, a guidance.....(internet)
This is the Book;* in its guidance sure, without doubt*, to those who fear God....(Yusuf Ali)
Etc.

To me, all the above translations are inadequate, mainly because the meaning is unclear and uncertain (in English)

In some cases, it appears to say that there is no doubt about what the CONTENTS of the Book relate.
In others, it appears to say that there is no doubt about the AUTHENTICITY of the Book itself.
Yusuf Ali's translation seems to indicate that it is the GUIDANCE that cannot be doubted.  And so on.

In other words, a careful reading shows that* they are all really saying something different.  *This is unacceptable.

I have always believed a translation of a text is only valid if it gets the MEANING across in another language, *no matter how far it diverges in form and content from the original.  *Yes, ideally keeping as much of the original in form and content is IDEAL, but often, it proves impractical or inadequate (or totally worthless).  This is one of the occasions where we have to alter some of the form to arrive at an adequate translation.  Therefore, when I write my translation of the Koran, I will render the text under discussion here as:

*This is the unambiguous Book, a guide to those who........
*
Now it is clear what there is no doubt about...it is the Book itself (not just its contents or the guidance it provides or any other single category alone), that is explicit, distinct and absolute.


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## إسكندراني

This particular verse has a multitude of interpretations - not all are acceptable, but nobody says there is only one.
To start off with there is the 'stop either here or there' symbol*.•. .•. تفيد جواز الوقف بأحد الموضعين وليس في كليهما *
In one case is ذلك الكتاب - لا ريب فيه - هدى للمتقين which is 'that is the book. there is no doubt/uncertainty in it, guidance for the pious.
In the other is ذلك الكتاب لا ريب - فيه هدى للمتقين 'that is the book, there is no doubt [in that]. In it is guidance for the pious'.
But since we aren't trained in interpretation we shouldn't be exploring the meaning. Hopefully the grammatical question on ذلك الكتاب has been answered; the خبر can be definite and the pronoun thing is not essential. So we should leave it there.


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## Paxos

Faylasoof said:


> BTW, in pre-classical Arabic other forms did exist:
> ذاکم / ذلکم
> ذلکنّ
> تلکما
> etc.
> 
> So, ذاکم صاحبکم could be used to mean:
> _Here is your companion! / There is your companion!_
> 
> But as these forms have now been extinct for nearly one and half millennium it would be best to avoid using them!


السَلام عليكم

 I don't know if I have to open a new thread.

In the Quran :

ذَٲلِكُمۡ وَصَّٮٰكُم بِهِۦ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تَعۡقِلُونَ (This He has commanded you that you may understand) 6.151
 فَذٰلِكُنَّ الَّذِىۡ لُمۡتُنَّنِىۡ فِيۡهِ‌ؕ This is he (the young man) about whom you did blame me) 12.32 (Translator : Dr. Moshin)

So, there is a relation between the ending of ذَٲلِكُمۡ and ذٰلِكُنَّ , and the persons adressed to.

  Is it used to emphasize the persons to whom one speak ? or to insist on the  object of the discussion (if so, why these endings) ?

Has the form ذالِكِ ever existed ?


Thank you !


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## Mazhara

> Has the form ذالِكِ ever existed ?




*قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ 
[Ref 19:21]
قَالُوا كَذَلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكِ 
[51:30*


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## Paxos

Thank you Mazhara


Mazhara said:


> [Ref 19:21]
> قَالُوا كَذَلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكِ
> [51:30


Is it a different reading ?
So, do you think these forms are used to to catch the attention of the person talked to, or to mark the emphasis on her ?

Or were they simply the "normal" forms at the time of the revelation ?


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## Mazhara

I regret and beg pardon that I cut and pasted from a website without noticing typing error of vowel sign which should be kasra. It is like this in Qur'aan
*قَالُوا كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ *
*They replied to her, "This is because, Madam, this has been said by the Sustainer Lord of you.*​


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## إسكندراني

كذلكَ addressing one male
كذلكِ addressing one female


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