# A question about when to add 'Hey' to possession.



## Julie.M

I am a beginner in Hebrew, so I truly appreciate any help anyone can give me.  My question is:

I always thought that when you said something like, 'My father', you said 
האבא שלי  where you added the possession, ' שלי (or any pronoun variation thereof) you always added a ה to whatever object/person/what-have-you that is being possessed.  Is this always true? I've seen people omit the 'hey' and I was wondering if there was a rule to follow?


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## arielipi

You dont always add he hayedi'a before possession... just like in english, my father - not the my father, same in hebrew.


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## Julie.M

So...then when do you add it?  Is it like, 'her book' it should have the 'hey' because it literally translates to 'The book of her'?


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## arielipi

Yes indeed.


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## tFighterPilot

The case of אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא are special cases where you never add ה הידיעה, since its already contained within these words, which are burrowed from Aramaic. (In Aramaic final א is the same as ה הידיעה in Hebrew). In the case of a book you would say הספר שלי.


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## arbelyoni

> The case of אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא are special cases where you never add ה  הידיעה, since its already contained within these words, which are  burrowed from Aramaic. (In Aramaic final א is the same as ה הידיעה in  Hebrew).


Aramaic had lost this quality of final Aleph long before Biblical Aramaic, so this is very unlikely to be the reason.

I think it actually happens because we usually treat the words אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא as titles, proper names (proper names are already definite and cannot have a definite article). This would explain why we also say אח שלי, דוד שלי etc...


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> The case of אבא, אמא, סבא, סבתא are special cases where you never add ה הידיעה, since its already contained within these words, which are burrowed from Aramaic.


ורק בגללי הוא *האבא *שלי
כי הבטיח הוא לי
שהוא רק שלי

(תלמה אליגון)


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## tFighterPilot

origumi said:


> ורק בגללי הוא *האבא *שלי
> כי הבטיח הוא לי
> שהוא רק שלי
> 
> (תלמה אליגון)


Then again *לְ*אבא שלי יש סולם

Not very consistent...


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## arielipi

מה הקשר???
גם לדעתי טעית טייס אוטומטי.


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## arbelyoni

There's no denying that *האבא *is possible. The question is why isn't אבא always definite in possession like other nouns (הספר שלי, הילד שלי)? Instead, it's almost always indefinite.


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## origumi

arbelyoni said:


> There's no denying that *האבא *is possible. The question is why isn't אבא always definite in possession like other nouns (הספר שלי, הילד שלי)? Instead, it's almost always indefinite.


As noted above, the Aramaic suffix א- serves as a definite article. However:

1. This depends on the Aramaic period and dialect, in many places (mainly Babylon) this suffix lost its meaning as a definite article
2. When borrowed to Hebrew, Hebrew speakers do not "feel" this definite article

Therefore it's natural (and also grammatical, I believe) to either omit or add the Hebrew definite article, resulting in האבא, הסבתא, החוטרא מההגדה.


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## arbelyoni

> Therefore it's natural (and also grammatical, I believe) to either omit or add the Hebrew definite article, resulting in האבא, הסבתא, החוטרא מההגדה.


But the choice whether to use a definite article with these nouns or not is not random (if that's what you're suggesting?).
The sentences אבא אוכל גלידה and האבא אוכל גלידה are essentially different in meaning.

In fact, it seems that the definite article plays a different role here:
אבא is a very specific father: my father (dad).
האבא is a specific father that is not my father (the father).
It is also the case of אמא, סבא, סבתא (and partly true in the case of אח, דוד, חבר).

I think the reason for this is that these nouns usually function as proper names, rather than regular nouns; it was definitely their original meaning in Hebrew (Even Shoshan describes אבא as: כינוי האב בפי בנו או בפי בתו). With time these words pushed aside and replaced the Hebrew cognates אב, אם, סב, סבה in the day-to-day language and took their general meaning of mother, father, grandfather and grandmother.
So האבא is a late invention that replaces האב.


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## tFighterPilot

Well yeah, but generally speaking "the father" isn't a concept that is often needed in common speech, and when you wish to say something like "The thrilled father" you won't say "האבא הנרגש" but rather "האב הנרגש".


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## origumi

arbelyoni said:


> But the choice whether to use a definite article with these nouns or not is not random (if that's what you're suggesting?).
> ...
> So האבא is a late invention that replaces האב.


As you wrote, אבא serves sometimes like a proper name, and yet in other cases it's an alternative to Hebrew אב. As a proper name it never gets a definite article, as a noun it complies with the language rules. Therefore you cannot say that אבא replaces (only) Hebrew האב or (only) Hebrew אב. It can stand for both, although not in the same proportion.


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