# I think he won't pass the exam



## RagsToRich

I'm English by the way - but this is annoying me. I have a Spanish friend who has been taught this is incorrect and the correct way is:

"I don't think he will pass the exam."

However, to me that's a slightly different meaning. Saying that you have a believe that he will not pass the exam is not equal to saying that you do not have a belief that he will pass the exam.

Because there's other options for example - IE: the exam might be cancelled.

Can someone shed light on what is wrong with this:

"I think he won't pass the exam."


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## Aidanriley

There's nothing wrong with it.


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## LovableJim

To a native speaker there is nothing wrong with it. As someone who's had some training in teaching English to non-native speakers, however, I know that sometimes it's better to teach people an easier distinction at lower level - i.e. the negation of "I think" is "I don't think". Perhaps it was wrong of your friend's teacher to outright say it was incorrect.

I disagree with your distinction, though. If someone says to me "I don't think he will pass", to me that means exactly the same as "I think he won't pass", rather than merely expressing that you don't have any opinion on whether he will or not.


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## jrbbopp

I teach Spanish speakers English, and we always tell them to use "I don't think he'll pass" because they always want to say "I think he won't pass", which is a direct translation from Spanish.  It's a bit of overcorrection on our part, but it's done in order to get them used to the "more normal" way of saying it; once they've gotten that down pat, then you can introduce the wrinkle that "I think he won't pass" does make sense and can be said.  That said, to me, "I think he won't pass" is a rather colloquial usage, and one that I use very rarely, though it does make sense in its context (but if you tell them that it's okay, they won't bother learning "I don't think he'll pass", which I would say is used more frequently)


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## RagsToRich

jrbbopp said:


> I teach Spanish speakers English, and we always tell them to use "I don't think he'll pass" because they always want to say "I think he won't pass", which is a direct translation from Spanish.  It's a bit of overcorrection on our part, but it's done in order to get them used to the "more normal" way of saying it; once they've gotten that down pat, then you can introduce the wrinkle that "I think he won't pass" does make sense and can be said.  That said, to me, "I think he won't pass" is a rather colloquial usage, and one that I use very rarely, though it does make sense in its context (but if you tell them that it's okay, they won't bother learning "I don't think he'll pass", which I would say is used more frequently)



This makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.


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## Bandama

jrbbopp said:


> I teach Spanish speakers English, and we always tell them to use "I don't think he'll pass" because they always want to say "I think he won't pass", which is a direct translation from Spanish.  It's a bit of overcorrection on our part, but it's done in order to get them used to the "more normal" way of saying it; once they've gotten that down pat, then you can introduce the wrinkle that "I think he won't pass" does make sense and can be said.  That said, to me, "I think he won't pass" is a rather colloquial usage, and one that I use very rarely, though it does make sense in its context (but if you tell them that it's okay, they won't bother learning "I don't think he'll pass", which I would say is used more frequently)


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## k-in-sc

I saw the title of this thread and thought, "Gee, that doesn't sound native." Glad others agree.


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## zetem

A quote below is from "Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), Oxford":
"Typical mistake: *I think, you haven't met my wife.
When verbs like _think, believe, suppose, imagine_ are used to introduce negative ideas, it is generally the introducing verb (think, etc.) that is made negative.
I don't think you've met my wife. I don't believe she is at home.
_Hope_ is an exception: I hope it won't rain (Not: I don't hope ...) "


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## RagsToRich

Ok that's fine. The fact is it's preferred, but it is not wrong. Which is true because the sentences have a different exact meaning.


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## k-in-sc

I think you're projecting a difference in meanings that doesn't actually exist.


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## obz

I would only say "I think he won't pass the exam" in place of "I don't think he will pass the exame" IF..

Speakign with another person, with whom I disagree, and I want to contradict what they have said.

"I think he will pass the exam"
"Yeah? Well I think he won't"

Otherwise, while not incorrect, it just doesn't want to come out of my mouth, except in a contradictory fashion.


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## duvija

zetem said:


> A quote below is from "Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), Oxford":
> "Typical mistake: *I think, you haven't met my wife.
> When verbs like _think, believe, suppose, imagine_ are used to introduce negative ideas, it is generally the introducing verb (think, etc.) that is made negative.
> I don't think you've met my wife. I don't believe she is at home.
> _Hope_ is an exception: I hope it won't rain (Not: I don't hope ...) "


 

Just in case, it's called 'negative raising'. It's common to move the negative word to where you find it more comfortable, even if the semantics (meaning) doesn't match. It's not true that 'you don't think', because you do think! 
Semantically, it should be 'I think [NEG] verb...'
Still, both sentences convey the same idea.


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## RagsToRich

k-in-sc said:


> I think you're projecting a difference in meanings that doesn't actually exist.



There is a definate logical difference. Depending on how well you understand logic, and how well you understand what the verb "to think" actually means you may or may not understand why that is.

But certainly "I don't think he will..." sounds better.


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## k-in-sc

This isn't logic, it's language. Unfortunately, you generally can't use logical principles to arrive at the "correct" way to say something. Is the double negative in Spanish "logical"? No, but it is correct.


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## obz

I'm with k-in-sc, if a difference is seen, it's because the viewer wishes to see it. Not because it is really there.


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## k-in-sc

Another point: One meaning of "to think" is "to believe," and saying ''I don't think'' in the sense of "I don't think he'll pass the exam'' doesn't mean ''My brain has ceased functioning'' or "There are no thoughts in my head." It means ''I don't believe he'll pass,'' which seems perfectly logical to me.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> This isn't logic, it's language. Unfortunately, you generally can't use logical principles to arrive at the "correct" way to say something. Is the double negative in Spanish "logical"? No, but it is correct.


 
Sorry. English and Spanish, both, use metaphors for negation. English uses 'multiplication' and Spanish 'sum'. Therefore in English two NEG cancel each other, but in Spanish it becomes an ever bigger NEG.


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## k-in-sc

No offense, I wasn't suggesting Spanish was illogical, I was trying to say you can't trot out some simplistic reasoning for why you "should" say something one way and not another. Language goes too deep for that ...  
(I'm reminded of kids bickering in the back seat: "You said you DIDN'T have NO cooties! That means you DO have cooties!" Etc. ...)


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## duvija

jrbbopp said:


> I teach Spanish speakers English, and we always tell them to use "I don't think he'll pass" because they always want to say "I think he won't pass", which is a direct translation from Spanish. ...
> ... context (but if you tell them that it's okay, they won't bother learning "I don't think he'll pass", which I would say is used more frequently)


 
Sorry, but in Spanish 'no creo que vaya a pasar' (or even 'no creo que pase')is as common as 'creo que no va a pasar'. The subjunctive in the 'no creo que + subj.' sentence may be difficult for English speakers, but not so much for Spanish monolinguals.
I find strange the fact that you say ' ... is a direct translation from Spanish', so maybe there are regionalism in place in this area.


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## SevenDays

Hello

If I remember correctly, the concept of _negative raising_ works when you have a main verb that expresses an opinion (_think, believe_, etc.) followed by a _that-clause_ with a modal (_will, should_, etc.). _I think (that) he won't pass the exam; I don't think (that) he will pass the exam_. They are two structures with the same meaning. But, with verbs such as _think_, it is useful to know that English speakers seem to prefer and are more likely to say _I don't think he will pass the exam. _

Cheers


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## duvija

SevenDays said:


> Hello
> 
> If I remember correctly, the concept of _negative raising_ works when you have a main verb that expresses an opinion (_think, believe_, etc.) followed by a _that-clause_ with a modal (_will, should_, etc.). _I think (that) he won't pass the exam; I don't think (that) he will pass the exam_. They are two structures with the same meaning. But, with verbs such as _think_, it is useful to know that English speakers seem to prefer and are more likely to say _I don't think he will pass the exam. _
> 
> Cheers


 
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~koster/DenBesten/Klooster.pdf
This is a decent paper on Neg. raising. There are tons of easier ones in Google.


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## duvija

SevenDays said:


> Hello
> 
> If I remember correctly, the concept of _negative raising_ works when you have a main verb that expresses an opinion (_think, believe_, etc.) followed by a _that-clause_ with a modal (_will, should_, etc.). _I think (that) he won't pass the exam; I don't think (that) he will pass the exam_. They are two structures with the same meaning. But, with verbs such as _think_, it is useful to know that English speakers seem to prefer and are more likely to say _I don't think he will pass the exam. _
> 
> Cheers


 
I think this is an easy article on the subject of NR. Strangely enough, it doesn't show the name of the author (but the URL is http://www2.let.uu.nl/UiL-OTS/Lexicon/zoek.pl?lemma=Negative+raising)


Negative raising 

*SYNTAX: *The phenomenon that a negation in the matrix clause of a sentence is interpreted in negating the complement clause. *EXAMPLE:* The negation in the matrix clause (ia) is interpreted in negating the complement clause, which makes (ia) equivalent to (ib): (i)	a	I don’t think he’ll come	b	I think he won’t come 
The phenomenon owes its name to the early transformational analysis as an instance of movement (Lakoff 1970): the negation is raised out of its embedded clause to a position in the matrix clause. It is also called neg-raising. Examples of predicates that allow negative raising are _believe, want, seem, suppose, likely, ought to_, but not _know_, for instance. Negative raising has later received a pragmatic explanation. The ‘displaced’ interpretation of the negation results from a strengthening of the unlikely wide interpretation of (ia) to the more likely narrow interpretation that corresponds to (ib). See Horn (1989) for an extensive overview. 
*LIT. *Horn, Laurence R. (1989)
Lakoff, G. (1970)


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## OrCuS

I don't think he will pass the exam -> No creo que apruebe el examen.
I think he won't pass the exam -> Creo que no aprobará el examen.

To me, both mean the same in both languages


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## sound shift

I can't imagine anyone I know saying "I think he won't pass the exam."


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## derail

k-in-sc said:


> I saw the title of this thread and thought, "Gee, that doesn't sound native." Glad others agree.


That's exactly what I thought. It sounds to me like something a Spanish-speaker would say in English.


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## zetem

I don't THINK he will pass an exam. I KNOW he will!


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## roanheads

duvija said:


> Sorry, but in Spanish 'no creo que vaya a pasar' (or even 'no creo que pase')is as common as 'creo que no va a pasar'. The subjunctive in the 'no creo que + subj.' sentence may be difficult for English speakers, but not so much for Spanish monolinguals.
> I find strange the fact that you say ' ... is a direct translation from Spanish', so maybe there are regionalism in place in this area.


 
Estoy muy de acuerdo contigo, en lo que a mi parecer " no creo + subjuntivo" suena muy castellano y muy correcto.
Saludos.


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## derail

Charlando con ciberamigos hispanohablantes, he notado que usan a menudo construcciones como la de "I think he won't..." en casos cuando alguien que tenga el inglés como lengua materna casi siempre diría "I don't think he'll...". 



duvija said:


> Sorry, but in Spanish 'no creo que vaya a pasar' (or even 'no creo que pase')is as common as 'creo que no va a pasar'. The subjunctive in the 'no creo que + subj.' sentence may be difficult for English speakers, but not so much for Spanish monolinguals.
> I find strange the fact that you say ' ... is a direct translation from Spanish', so maybe there are regionalism in place in this area.


Has mencionado que en español la construcción "no creo que + subjunctive" es tan común como la de "creo que no... ". Sin embargo, no es así en inglés con "I think he won't..." y "I don't think he will...." (mira lo que han dicho en los otros mensajes). Por lo que me parece razonable que un angloparlante deduzca que "I think he won't..." puede ser una traducción literal del español, la sea o no.


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## OrCuS

Estoy de acuerdo en que "I think he won't..." y derivados suenan extraño, incluso a mí que no soy nativo no me suena natural pero... eso no hace que sea incorrecto ¿no?


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## derail

OrCuS said:


> Estoy de acuerdo en que "I think he won't..." y derivados suenan extraño, incluso a mí que no soy nativo no me suena natural pero... eso no hace que sea incorrecto ¿no?


Tienes razón, pero creo que el único que ha dicho que es incorrecto ha sido el profesor del amigo español del RagstoRich. Sería interesante saber de dónde viene ese profesor.


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## k-in-sc

A construction could be "incorrect" in the sense that non-native speakers are advised to avoid it.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> A construction could be "incorrect" in the sense that non-native speakers are advised to avoid it.


 
But you can do that only after you present that construction to the non-native speakers, otherwise how would they know what to avoid, if they hear it on the street?
Are you talking about a single level of college students? or to non-natives in general?


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## k-in-sc

I was saying that in response to comments that ''the construction isn't really _wrong_." And I meant non-natives in general. Natives tend to be attuned to hints of ''foreignness" in the speech of non-natives, don't you think?


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## nkbvbgrl

Perhaps this is a difference in American English but I would never say "I think he will not pass his exam". Like someone else said, to me it doesn't sound native. But again, neither do a lot of British phrases. I'm curious to know whether this is a British nuance. Do you know what kind of English your friend is being taught? If your friend is being taught in Europe, then it is most likely British English. If your friend is in the United States, however, this might explain your confusion.


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## derail

nkbvbgrl said:


> Perhaps this is a difference in American English but I would never say "I think he will not pass his exam". Like someone else said, to me it doesn't sound native. But again, neither do a lot of British phrases. I'm curious to know whether this is a British nuance. Do you know what kind of English your friend is being taught? If your friend is being taught in Europe, then it is most likely British English. If your friend is in the United States, however, this might explain your confusion.


Hi. No, it's not a British nuance. In a previous post someone quoted a few lines from a book by a British author: "Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), Oxford":

_*Typical mistake: *I think you haven't met my wife.*
When verbs like __think, believe, suppose, imagine are used to introduce negative ideas, it is generally the introducing verb (think, etc.) that is made negative.
I don't think you've met my wife. I don't believe she is at home.
_ _Hope is an exception: I hope it won't rain (Not: I don't hope ...) "_


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## nkbvbgrl

Oh oops. Didn't see that. Thanks for clearing that up!


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## bronsonduerden

Have you asked your friend if his teacher was Northamerican, or if it was Northamerican English he was learning?

For me, saying, "I think he won't pass the exam" makes sense but I would never state it like that, neither would anyone from where I am(speculation).  I would either say, "I don't think he's going to pass the exam" or "I think he's going to fail the exam".  Obviously there is nothing wrong with any of these three sentences, and I think it completely depends on the colloquial use of where the speaker learned English.  Another example of how although English varies from place to place and things are said differently, we can still easily communicate.


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## zetem

The following is an extract from "A comprehensive Grammar of the English Language" (Randolf Quirk, et al) Longman: "Transferred negation (negative raising), particularly common in informal style, is the transfer of the negative from a subordinate clause (generally a that-clause) where semantically it belongs to the matrix clause.  For example, _I don't think it's a good idea_, can have two meanings, one in which the negation applies to the matrix clause, and one in which it applies through transferred negation to the subordinate clause (_I think it isn't a good idea_). It is the difficulty of distinguishing the first meaning from the second that in part accounts for the transfer. Another explanatory factor is that generally  the focus is on the content of the subordinate clause, which is pragmatically more important: the meaning of the sentence approximates to: _It is probably not a good idea_. The first meaning, however, becomes prominent if the focus is on THINK:  _I don't think it's a good idea. I KNOW it is._ In this context, transferred negation does not take place. Because of the presence of the tow meanings, of the matrix clause, the negative force of the transferred negation in: _I don't think it's a good idea_, is weaker for the subordinate clause than in the less common: _I think it isn't a good idea, _where the negative is actually present in the clause".


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## duvija

zetem said:


> Another explanatory factor is that generally the focus is on the content of the subordinate clause, which is pragmatically more important: the meaning of the sentence approximates to: _It is probably not a good idea_. The first meaning, however, becomes prominent if the focus is on THINK: _I don't think it's a good idea. I KNOW it is._ In this context, transferred negation does not take place. Because of the presence of the tow meanings, of the matrix clause, the negative force of the transferred negation in: _I don't think it's a good idea_, is weaker for the subordinate clause than in the less common: _I think it isn't a good idea, _where the negative is actually present in the clause".


 

Yes, the stronger you want it, the closer you place it. (It also works for 'only' in another question we were talking about)


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## Aidanriley

I don't have a problem with "I think he won't pass his exam." E.g.
-Is he doing well in the class, what do you think?
-I think he won't pass his exam.


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