# Leb demeden leblebiyi anlamak — [Etymology]



## Baston

_*Moderator's Note: This thread was split from here.*_


The thing is that leb is a Persian word, which means "lip", and leblebi is chicpea.There is a language game here. When you say 'leb demeden' you mean "before the lip says". 
So let's take is from the start: Understanding leblebi, before the lip says... Meaning understanding quickly, to be clever etc...
I hope this is not so confusing


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## macrotis

Unfortunately, it _is_ confusing.

*Leb* in the expression has nothing to do with the Persian *leb*=_lip_, it's just the first syllable of *leblebi*, which is _roasted chickpea_, and, as far as I think, no pun is actually intended: It's just the emotional appeal of similarly sounding and repeating syllables. It wouldn't be so appealing if it were _kes demeden kestaneyi anlamak_.

Because the sentence is grammatically elliptical, the exact translation is _to understand *leblebi* as soon as someone says *leb*_, meaning _to predict that someone is going to say *leblebi *as soon as he says *leb*_.


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## Baston

Actually I don't understand why we're speaking in English, as I see everybody's maternal language is Turkish...
Macrotis, you can believe anything you want about "leb" and "leblebi" but I recommend you to do a little research where you'll see why this example is quite different than "kes" and "kestane".
Everything has a sense...But it's up to you of course...
Bye...


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## Rallino

Baston said:


> Actually I don't understand why we're speaking in English, as I see everybody's maternal language is Turkish...
> [...]



Hello Baston 
As this forum is also a source for the learners of the Turkish Language, it would be kind of us to stick to one language in every thread. Think of a person who has an elementary knowledge of Turkish but needs to make a research about the language. It would be cruel for them if we changed the language of a thread that was originally in English. This is, of course, not a strict rule; given that not everyone has to speak English. However, I see that you can flawlessly express yourself in both languages, so I would like to ask you to, please, _*not*_ change the language in the middle of a discussion.


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## Baston

I didn't change the language and I WON'T.
Bu if this is a Turkish forum, which I think not for Turkish people but for foreigners, we have to speak in Turkish to help them improve their Turkish... And also I said so because everybody involved in the conversation seemed Turkish.
Anyway, the question still remains unanswered... I mean the leb thing... 
But it is closed now....


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## Rallino

Baston said:


> [...]
> Anyway, the question still remains unanswered... I mean the leb thing...
> But it is closed now....



I don't have an answer, but those who do, can always join the discussion here, but not on the other thread which was originally just a translation request. 

We try and encourage _foreros_ to talk about only _one topic pro one thread_. There was a need for an etymological discussion, so I created one and moved there the posts thereabout.

Feel free to discuss the etymology of the idiom here.


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## BinWord

macrotis said:


> Unfortunately, it _is_ confusing.
> 
> *Leb* in the expression has nothing to do with the Persian *leb*=_lip_, it's just the first syllable of *leblebi*, which is _roasted chickpea_, and, as far as I think, no pun is actually intended: It's just the emotional appeal of similarly sounding and repeating syllables. It wouldn't be so appealing if it were _kes demeden kestaneyi anlamak_.
> 
> Because the sentence is grammatically elliptical, the exact translation is _to understand *leblebi* as soon as someone says *leb*_, meaning _to predict that someone is going to say *leblebi *as soon as he says *leb*_.



I would second that, as it perfectly makes sense with the logic of this expression, for the person only may reason that the word is *leblebi*, after an input (in this case, *leb*) is given. If *leb *here meant *lip*, then the person who comes up with the guess *leblebi *is just lucky as there is no X-Y input in the equation.
But, yes... Why would there not be a pun by the first inventers of this expression? Let's assume there was. But then, I and many people in Turkey interprete and use the expression in exactly the same way as Macrotis.


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## TekYelken

Though I agree that posts written in English will be better understood by the majority of the readers, I can not help but think that there are flavours in Turkish which can not be translated into English. Therefore, I hope you will excuse me writting the following argument in Turkish.

Şimdi, Baston'un dediğini de düşünmek lazım. '*Leb demeden leblebiyi anlamak' *sözü büyük ihtimalle saray şairlerinden birinin incisidir. Bilindiği gibi vaktiyle bu şairlerin yazdıkları beyitler eğer beğenilip saray tarafından kabul edilirse kendilerine hazineden para verilirdi. İnce nükte sanatı içeren ve çoğunluğu Farsça'ya dayanan bu beyitlerden Türkçe'de kendine yer edinebilen birçok örnek vardır. Söz konusu deyim de *'Bir şeyi anlamak için ille de söylemek mi gerek' *anlamında kullanılmış olabilir. Ne var ki, eğer kökeni böyleyse, bu deyim günümüze gelene kadar değişime uğramıştır. Bugün bunu bu anlamda kullanamıyoruz.


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