# בתוך או בפנים



## bfitt

What is the difference between  בתוך and בפנים and when is it more appropriate to use one instead of the other?


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## ahshav

The first one (בתוך) is a preposition, e.g. בתוך הבית - in the house.
The other - בפנים is more a description, a declaratory (I'm sure someone else knows the correct grammatical term) - e.g. הוא בפנים - he is inside. However, "he is inside the house" necessitates a preposition - הוא *בתוך *הבית.


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## scriptum

ahshav said:


> the correct grammatical term


adverb


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## ahshav

Thanks scriptum - now I feel pretty dumb. I didn't really think of that because in the sentence I wrote the "to be" verb is implied.


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## origumi

ahshav said:


> The first one (בתוך) is a preposition, e.g. בתוך הבית - in the house.


 
I think that technically speaking *ב* is a preposition, *תוך* is a noun, תוך הבית is a construct (סמיכות) and therefore the accurate (even if awkward) translation for בתוך הבית is "in the center/inside/interior of the house".


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## dinji

origumi said:


> I think that technically speaking *ב* is a preposition, *תוך* is a noun, תוך הבית is a construct (סמיכות) and therefore the accurate (even if awkward) translation for בתוך הבית is "in the center/inside/interior of the house".


I think what you descibe is the origin of the preposition. But the way it is used today it really functions as a preposition.

The evidence I propose is that if you where right, we should be able to form a construct _bifnei-habayit_ as well. From what I remember, this would not be idiomatic Hebrew, because: _bifnei-_ is not in use as a preposition, right (as opposed to _lifnei-_, which is)?

We also would seldom say _batawekh_, the meaning of which definitely is narrrower than that of the preposition, effectively restricted to 'in the middle of/center'.


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## origumi

dinji said:


> I think what you descibe is the origin of the preposition. But the way it is used today it really functions as a preposition.


Aggreed. I tried to explain why *בתוך* behaves like a preposition vs. *בפנים* which is not.



dinji said:


> The evidence I propose is that if you where right, we should be able to form a construct _bifnei-habayit_ as well. From what I remember, this would not be idiomatic Hebrew, because: _bifnei-_ is not in use as a preposition, right (as opposed to _lifnei-_, which is)?


*בפני* as a preposition exists in "classic" Hebrew but not in the modern language. For example בבלי, תמורה כ"א א says: מה בכור אינו נאכל אלא *בפני הבית *אף מעשר אינו נאכל אלא *בפני הבית *and similarly in Maimonides (Rambam) משנה תורה, הלכות מעשר שני ונטע רבעי פרק ב.


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## ahshav

origumi said:


> *בפני* as a preposition exists in "classic" Hebrew but not in the modern language. For example בבלי, תמורה כ"א א says: מה בכור אינו נאכל אלא *בפני הבית *אף מעשר אינו נאכל אלא *בפני הבית *and similarly in Maimonides (Rambam) משנה תורה, הלכות מעשר שני ונטע רבעי פרק ב.



Moreover, the word פנים today has come to mean "facets" more than the interior of something (except for the specific word בפנים) - so today a common construct of preposition+בפנים would be על פני - "on the face of."

Does anyone know why/how has the word פנים come to mean both interior and exterior surface, as well?


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## scriptum

ahshav said:


> Does anyone know why/how has the word פנים come to mean both interior and exterior surface, as well?


We are talking about two different words, panim (surface) and p'nim (interior). Nobody seems to know for sure whether they are etymologically related.


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## Yasminka

Actually I would say the word תוך does stand on its own, even in the modern hebrew. It might sound weird to use it without a preposition, but I think Origumi is correct. 
And maybe it would sound out-dated to say בפני הבית, but you would use בפני in other occasions, like בפני הוועדה, בפני הקהל, בפני חברים. 
Whereas לפני could be used to indicate time, you can't use בפני to do that.


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## ahshav

Yasminka, but the meanings you cite for בפני do not mean "inside," but "in front of."

What do you mean that תוך can stand on its own? There are a number of different related words/meanings: 1. בתוככי - "in the insides of" (still a preposition). 2. תוך כדי "while" (still a preposition). I can't think of an appropriate usage for the word תוך when it is truly not a preposition.


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## dinji

ahshav said:


> Yasminka, but the meanings you cite for בפני do not mean "inside," but "in front of."
> 
> What do you mean that תוך can stand on its own? There are a number of different related words/meanings: 1. בתוככי - "in the insides of" (still a preposition). 2. תוך כדי "while" (still a preposition). I can't think of an appropriate usage for the word תוך when it is truly not a preposition.


Well, as Origumi said already: תוך (tokh)- is a construct (סמיכות) so when you look for stand alone use, look for _tawekh_ 'middle' instead. As the meanings have diversified a bit, the connection may be isn't that transparent anymore for native speakers?


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## origumi

dinji said:


> As the meanings have diversified a bit, the connection may be isn't that transparent anymore for native speakers?


 
This is true. The usual meaning of tawech תָּוֶךְ in modern Hebrew is slightly different. Instead of the biblical "middle" (for example Numbers 35:5 וְהָעִיר בַּתָּוֶךְ, Judges 16:29 שְׁנֵי עַמּוּדֵי הַתָּוֶךְ), it is used for "medium" or "solvent" etc., often related to physics or technology. Therefore Hebrew speakers may regard tokh תּוֹךְ and tawekh תָּוֶךְ as two different words.


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## ahshav

origumi said:


> This is true. The usual meaning of tawech תָּוֶךְ in modern Hebrew is slightly different. Instead of the biblical "middle" (for example Numbers 35:5 וְהָעִיר בַּתָּוֶךְ, Judges 16:29 שְׁנֵי עַמּוּדֵי הַתָּוֶךְ), it is used for "medium" or "solvent" etc., often related to physics or technology. Therefore Hebrew speakers may regard tokh תּוֹךְ and tawekh תָּוֶךְ as two different words.



Yes, exactly, I hadn't thought of the connection at all. However, in fact, one common (probably related) root is ת.ו.כ - to mediate, or serve as an agent. E.g., הוא תִּוֵך ביניהם


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## Yasminka

ahshav said:


> Yasminka, but the meanings you cite for בפני do not mean "inside," but "in front of."
> 
> What do you mean that תוך can stand on its own? There are a number of different related words/meanings: 1. בתוככי - "in the insides of" (still a preposition). 2. תוך כדי "while" (still a preposition). I can't think of an appropriate usage for the word תוך when it is truly not a preposition.


 
Hi everyone! I stated these words just for knowledge  Not because I thought they were linked to the topic discussed here (talking about your first comment).

And about your second comment : You can use the word תוך without the preposition ב - for example, doing something תוך כדי, or I want it done תוך יומיים. There are even expressions with the word תוך without a preposition, although they are hardly in use in the modern Hebrew.

This is actually very interesting, so I decided to look for the word in a most reliable dictionary - Even Shooshan, an old edition from 1974. It is not up-to-date, but definately reliable. It actually puts תווך (TAVEKH) and תוך (TOKH) together, as the same word. The first meaning that is given is "middle, centre". Second meaning : "inside (of something)". Third meaning : "The inside part". and there are a few other meanings, all similar to these first 3 meanings. In addition, the word תוך can be joined with other prepositions : מתוך ש.., לתוך... etc.

You can say things like "תוכו של הפרי", it might sound slightly weird to some but definately possible.


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## Yasminka

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the word תוך does not need a preposition in order to be used. It may be used slightly different today, but if you ask me, it's related to impoverishment of the language in general more than anything else... Just my personal opinion


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