# Denigration of National Emblems



## GenJen54

I just returned from a local sporting event, where protocol has it, the US National Anthem is sung before the game.  This is a protocol I am accustomed to, so it is not a bother for me.

What is a bother for me is the continuing trend of "re-arranging" and turning into pop/rap/country/jazz (sorry, Chas) a song that should, at least in my opinion, be sung reverently.

It seems that more and more the song is becoming a mockery of itself, with each singer performing it as if they are auditioning for American Idol, or hoping some scout or agent in the audience will recognize their (ahem) talent and sign them on the spot.  

My question is, _does this happen in other countries_?  Do you feel it is denegration of your nation's anthem to hear it sung in different versions, or do people have the right to sing it publicly anyway they wish?

Likewise, is your country's flag used on items such as clothing/cups/plates/other household wares, etc?  Do you consider it disrespectful to use the flag in such a manner?


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## Kelly B

I agree, with reference to the US. I cannot stand it when the anthem is sung with extra notes thrown in all over the place! And I don't think the flag should be represented on paper goods, to be carelessly crumpled and thrown away.

On the other hand, I found the old flag-burning debate pretty ironic (there was a proposal a while back for a Constitutional amendment to ban flag-burning in the US), given that the proper way to dispose of a worn-out flag is to burn it, with respectful ceremony. Given that the only difference is intent and attitude, it certainly seemed like an infringement upon free speech to me.

To try to make these two points consistent - the flag and anthem should be treated with gravity, even for those who cannot bring themselves to show respect.


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## V52

We had the same problem in Italy for our anthem. Questions as "Do we have to change it?" or "Couldn't we use some more representative music?" 
Many soccer players were criticized because they didn't use to sing before matches etc etc ... Then our actual president pointed out the problem and now everyone sing "Fratelli d'Italia" on the attemption, with a hand on their heart... I find all this pure showing off. I don't feel it like a so important problem, I think I have a different feeling about "nationality" , even stronger than many showing off patriots. I agree, anyway, all these contaminations in singing are just pure exhibitionism.
Our anthem is considered a "low" quality one (banal music, rethoric words...) But definitely I like its story. Lyrics were taken from a poem composed by a 20 years old patriot in 1848 (Goffredo Mameli) and music by a not very gifted musician (Angelo Silvio Novaro). Definitely the result wasn't the best , maybe Verdi could do it better... but... As any italian thing, our anthem was born from the rush to do something , at last minute, with the "ingredients" they had at the moment... The same happened with our flag: it was created in 1821 trying to imitate the revolutionary french flag, but they couldn't find a blue tissue, so they used the green... What more representative of our attitude to adaptability? 
By the way...Garibaldi loved "Fratelli d'Italia" , because he said it brings luck, more than his own anthem the "Garibaldi's anthem" which he hated , saying it was a bad luck music! 
Vittorio


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## judkinsc

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

 Some tidbits (much shortened):

*Is it okay for an advertisement to use the flag?* No. 

*Is it okay to use flag napkins or flag paper plates?* No

*Is it okay to have a flag t-shirt with words written on it?* No.

*Can I have people sign my flag?* No.

*I am thinking of getting a flag tattoo. Is it okay?*

There is nothing in the Flag Code about tattoos. The question is one of respect for the flag. In this case one person's respect is another's disrespect, and we advise against a flag tattoo. Perhaps an American eagle would look good?*

Isn't the American flag stamp in violation of the flag rules?* 

This question has been asked by dozens of visitors to this page. The answer appears to be yes. Section 8e. (see below) reads, "The flag should never be ... used ... in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way." Section 8g. reads, "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark ... of any nature." 8i. reads, "[The flag] should not be printed or otherwise impressed on ... anything that is designed for temporary use and discard."

Despite what businesses do, it is still improper.


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## V52

judkinsc said:
			
		

> http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
> 
> Some tidbits (much shortened):
> 
> *Is it okay for an advertisement to use the flag?* No.
> 
> *Is it okay to use flag napkins or flag paper plates?* No
> 
> *Is it okay to have a flag t-shirt with words written on it?* No.
> 
> *Can I have people sign my flag?* No.
> 
> *I am thinking of getting a flag tattoo. Is it okay?*
> 
> There is nothing in the Flag Code about tattoos. The question is one of respect for the flag. In this case one person's respect is another's disrespect, and we advise against a flag tattoo. Perhaps an American eagle would look good?*
> 
> Isn't the American flag stamp in violation of the flag rules?*
> 
> This question has been asked by dozens of visitors to this page. The answer appears to be yes. Section 8e. (see below) reads, "The flag should never be ... used ... in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way." Section 8g. reads, "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark ... of any nature." 8i. reads, "[The flag] should not be printed or otherwise impressed on ... anything that is designed for temporary use and discard."
> 
> Despite what businesses do, it is still improper.


Well... maybe a too much "fundamentalist"  point of view... 
I don't like all the manifestations you pointed out either, but they can happen, like other stupid trends.  
V


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## judkinsc

Vittorio52 said:
			
		

> Well... maybe a too much "fundamentalist"  point of view...
> I don't like all the manifestations you pointed out either, but they can happen, like other stupid trends.
> V


The proper etiquette for the flag is very strict.

Here's another site, which is more concise.

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html


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## V52

judkinsc said:
			
		

> The proper etiquette for the flag is very strict.
> 
> Here's another site, which is more concise.
> 
> http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html


Signs change in their meaning... So American Flag has been used since a long time for any kind of comunication. But the first to use their flag in this wrong way were Us companies... Anyway... I don't like too much emphasizing my nationality, there's always something more behind a such behaviour something like "we are _uber  alles!  _"   Personally I don't need to be  the best, I just need ... to be...  Anyway I never wear clothes  with flags on... 
V


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## judkinsc

I was simply providing the _actual_ rules for flag etiquette. I thought they would be of interest. These are the rules for the US flag, in US territory. I imagine the etiquette for the Italian flag is much the same in Italy, or the French flag in France.

I was saying that, despite the consumers and companies which propagate these things, that they are in breach of the proper etiquette.

I was not able to find anything on the modification of the National Anthem, but I would guess that if you modify it...it is no longer the National Anthem.
There is etiquette for the proper respectful posture when listening to it, though. (One hand over the heart for a civilian/Military salute while in uniform for the military/etc).


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## V52

judkinsc said:
			
		

> I was simply providing the _actual_ rules for flag etiquette. I thought they would be of interest. These are the rules for the US flag, in US territory. I imagine the etiquette for the Italian flag is much the same in Italy, or the French flag in France.
> 
> I was saying that, despite the consumers and companies which propagate these things, that they are in breach of the proper etiquette.
> 
> I was not able to find anything on the modification of the National Anthem, but I would guess that if you modify it...it is no longer the National Anthem.
> There is etiquette for the proper respectful posture when listening to it, though. (One hand over the heart for a civilian/Military salute while in uniform for the military/etc).


I respect everything you want to do properly , but there are more important things that need our proper behaviour. I ear my Anthem on the attemption anyway. 
Vittorio


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## Hakro

During my 60+ years of life, I have never heard the Finnish national anthem played or sung in any other than the classical way. It's out of question here.

We also have quite strict rules how to handle our flag. On the other hand, using a _picture_ of the flag on different items is OK, in my opinion (and most of the Finns agree, I believe).


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## cuchuflete

I have mixed, even contrary, feelings about this.  The flag is a symbol that represents what the nation is supposed to be.  As such, it merits respect.  Period.

In contrast, we have a government leadership that talks about democracy, doesn't practice it, and demeans what the flag is supposed to stand for.

I like the idea of using the flag to point out the failures of government to genuinely honor that which it should represent, but cannot stomach the egoism and commercialism that afflict the anthem and flag these days. 

I'm spared the pain of listening to so-called entertainers desecrate the anthem, as I rarely attend sports events outside this little village, and don't have a baby sitter screen in the house.


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## belén

Here in Spain, the anthem is always sung the same way, we don't have lyrics, so it would be hard (but fun!!) to change the rythm into a hip hop song!

Regarding the use of the flag in other but flags, barely seen here, we are not really fond of the Spanish flag in the country, due to all the nationalistic stuff that is going on in Spain, and you won't even see people dressed combining red and yellow (those are the colors of the Spanish flag), it is "not fashionable" (imagine not being able to dress in blue and red in the US, I am talking about not combining a yellow t-shirt and red pants!)

Belén


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## V52

I think Cuchuflete and Belen are pointing out two realities:
Cuchuflete about the contrast between pride of being part of a nation and the reality of what governments can do in name of their countries.
Belen is indicating something very similar to what happened in Italy. For many italians it was very difficult to identify their belonging to the nation with colours of their flag, because of the unjustified use that post fascists did of italian colours in their party simbol (a white,green, red flame) putting themselves as "protectors" and "defensors" of "italianity" , trying, in an real unfair way, to hide what they did to Italy. The inheritance of fascism is very difficult to be cancelled...
Vittorio


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## judkinsc

I understand where you're coming from, Vittorio, and why you are interested in things other than the flag etiquette.

And I see Belen's point about the Spanish flag, too.

Americans though, on a whole, are very attached to our flag. We like to hang it up in places and take care of it. I have one in my room, which I brought with me when I came to France. 
The idea of someone treating the flag badly bothers me.  I believe it shows a lack of respect to our country and its symbol.

I understand the commercialisation of the symbol (putting it on everything) as more an "overeagerness" to display the symbol, as much as not knowing the proper etiquette for it.

Additionally, I'm not quite so musically inclined and have never heard (perhaps "noticed") the National Anthem played badly. But I do stand and salute when it is played.

Of course, I am also from a fairly military family...which means different things sometimes.


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## V52

Dear  Jud
I never said I am not attached to my country symbols, read my post about the story of italian flag and anthem. 
Ciao
Vittorio


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## V52

By the way, where am I coming from?


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## judkinsc

vittorio52 said:
			
		

> By the way, where am I coming from?


 You said you thought it was exhibitionism.  

If that is rather a question about the usage of the phrase in English...
It means "I understand your point of view."

I think of it as showing respect.  

There is no argument between our views. I was explaining the American flag and my attachment to it, not commenting on your usage, or not, of the Italian one.

My name though, is Chad.


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## V52

Dear Chad , sorry I used your Nickname.
I thank you for explaining me the reasons of your point of view. As we can understand by this discussion (very interesting in my opinion) the problems of country symbols are directily connected to the history of a country. 
I think both, millions of italians and spanishes feel still today betrayed by injustices perpetrated in name of their own national symbols. I repeat you that I like how Italy was born, and how our symbols where born, from passion and will of liberation. The poet who wrote our anthem, Goffredo Mameli, died in defense of Roman Republic in 1849 and he was 22 years old , a good reason for never touching his inheritance, in my opinion. The "gap" of fascist dictature imposed to all the risurgimental period its own shadow. This is the problem, and maybe this is the same problem for many spanishes. In 1936 democratic parties won elections in Spain and they where defeated by Franco in name of Spain, so this could create a real problem of identification in same symbols of dictature nowadays, as for many italians. 
Can you please correct my English? I'll appreciate.
Vittorio


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## elroy

Vittorio52 said:
			
		

> Dear Chad,
> Sorry I used your nickname.
> I thank you for explaining to me the reasons of behind your point of view. As we can understand  gather by from this discussion (a very interesting one, in my opinion), the problems of country  national symbols are directily  directly connected to the history of a  the country.
> I think both, millions of Italians and spanishes  Spaniards feel still today  today still feel betrayed by the injustices perpetrated in the name of their own national symbols. I repeat to you that I like how Italy was born, and how our symbols where born, from  with passion and the will of  desire for liberation. (I would reword: I would like to reiterate that I have respect for the sentiments that birthed the Italian nation and its symbols, for the passion and desire for liberty that motivated its beginnings.) The poet who wrote our anthem, Goffredo Mameli, died in defense of the Roman Republic in 1849 and he was 22 years old , a good reason for never touching his inheritance, in my opinion. (I don't understand this part - do you mean "a good reason not to taint his legacy"?) The "gap" (I don't understand.) of Fascist dictature  dictatorship imposed its own shadow (do you mean "its own rules/manners/lifestyles"?) to  on everybody (I insert this because you can't impose something on a _time period_.) throughout all the entire risurgimental period Risorgimento . This is the problem, and maybe this is  it might be the same problem for many spanishes Spaniards. In 1936 Democratic parties (the Democratic Party?) won the elections in Spain, and they where  had been defeated by Franco in the name of Spain., so This could create a real problem of identification in  with the same symbols of dictature  dictatorship nowadays, as for many Italians.
> Can  Could you please correct my English? I'll I'd appreciate it.
> Vittorio


Since you asked, I took the liberty of correcting your English. 

Just to stick to the topic, though, I'll throw in my two cents:

In Israel, the flag is flown and hung up and draped very frequently and commonly. I think that's logical considering the history of the country. I don't know about variations to the Israeli national anthem.

The Palestinian flag is also flown (also logical given the Palestinian cause), but not as frequently as the Israeli flag. I think the Israeli government doesn't allow it everywhere *but I could be wrong. *Again, I don't know about the Palestinian national anthem; I went to an American school where we didn't learn it and since graduating from high school I've been living in the States. 

In any case, I don't think Palestinians have particularly strong feelings about using the flag on paperware. I don't know what the situation is like for Israelis.


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## Valmar

Given the title of this thread and the question posed in GenJen's post, I am more than surprised no Argentines have answered yet. So, this is what I see.

*Anthem*
A few years ago, a famous rock musician in Argentina changed the music of our national anthem to... well, rock music. Because of his reputation (he is supposed to be addicted to drugs, completely insane and yet one of the best rock musicians in our country) and because of his alterations to this national emblem, many people thought this was disrespectful, rude, and in bad taste. I have heard this version of our anthem and, while I do not think it is disgusting, I still prefer the traditional version I learned in school.

BTW, the musician was Charly García. Does it ring a bell to any Spanish-speakers out there?

*Flag*
The major economic and political crisis Argentina had to face some 4 years ago prompted the use of Argentine flags everywhere, as a sort of national pride symbol. So important was this phenomenon that little flags were even printed or stamped inside shoes to prove that the material used was "genuine Argentine leather". This tendency seems to have faded somewhat lately.

I worked in a school with children aged 6 to 10, and we raised the flag with them and sang patriotic songs (not the anthem). It pained me to see our flag hanging in the front of the school building dirty and ragged because it is supposedly disrespectful to wash it. (There was even a letter to the editor of an important newspaper mentioning the pityful state of the flag in this particular school!) I still wonder: Is washing the flag disrespectful or is it more disrespectful to keep it exposed to the weather for days, weeks or even months?

Valmar


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## ampurdan

Hi!

I don't want to look disrespectful with anyone's feelings but I think that in many countries an excessive moral value is attached to the national anthem and flag. I understand that they represent all the people of a country, sometimes even the dead, and as such, they deserve respect. But I don't see the point in making them present everywhere in the daily life and, above all, I don't like the use that some people make of them, as if they were "tottems" of a tribu to identify the members against the enemies.

¡Un saludo!


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## Outsider

It's not customary to make modern versions of the national anthem in Portugal. I've never heard one.


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## judkinsc

Valmar said:
			
		

> ...
> I worked in a school with children aged 6 to 10, and we raised the flag with them and sang patriotic songs (not the anthem). It pained me to see our flag hanging in the front of the school building dirty and ragged because it is supposedly disrespectful to wash it. (There was even a letter to the editor of an important newspaper mentioning the pityful state of the flag in this particular school!) I still wonder: Is washing the flag disrespectful or is it more disrespectful to keep it exposed to the weather for days, weeks or even months?
> 
> Valmar



I can tell you the proper etiquette for the US flag, which is that it is shameful to display it dirty and ragged.  It should be washed with a mild soap solution, by hand.

Also, if the flag is in that bad of condition, it can be "retired".  The proper way to do that is by burning it with ceremony.


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## Agnès E.

A flag is just an object, it has no importance by itself.

What is important is all what this object is embodying, all the underlying values that this object represents. These values, the history of the country, the respect people feel towards them are making up what this country is, not the mere object called "flag".


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## Fernando

belen said:
			
		

> Here in Spain, the anthem is always sung the same way, we don't have lyrics, so it would be hard (but fun!!) to change the rythm into a hip hop song!


 No, it would not. Anything in hip hop rythm becames awful.

I do not think changing anthem interpretation is disrespectful. I think it is ugly. Anthems require a solemn interpretation. Otherwise they do not make sense. For the record, I could say the same for almost every music.



			
				belen said:
			
		

> we are not really fond of the Spanish flag in the country


 I am. 

For sure, Spaniards are (for my personal taste) too politically correct.
Anyhow, I do not feel most of the way you wear the national flag disrespectful, neither for the flag, nor for regions in Spain.


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## Hakro

judkinsc said:
			
		

> I can tell you the proper etiquette for the US flag, which is that it is shameful to display it dirty and ragged. It should be washed with a mild soap solution, by hand.
> 
> Also, if the flag is in that bad of condition, it can be "retired". The proper way to do that is by burning it with ceremony.


The etiquette for the Finnish flag  is about the same, but it can be washed by machine, too.

Burning used to be the right way to annihilate (is that a proper word?) the flag but it's not recommended for the modern artificial textiles, polyester for example. This kind of flag should instead be clipped into so small pieces that it can't be recognized as a flag, and when it's not a flag anymore the clippings can be put in the normal waste. These are the instructions in Finland.


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## Valmar

I agree with judkinsc and Hakro. Washing (whether by hand or in a machine) or retiring a flag after it no longer looks as a proper flag should be the norm and not the exception. The story I told applies in many other buildings in my city. So many old-looking flags out there...


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## JazzByChas

Hey, I'm actually behind you there, Jen. I realize all these young singers these days want to put a whole lot of "stylizing" into every song they sing. In my opinion, they go way overboard, and it actually sounds worse, from a musical point of view.

And yes, you can sing the National Anthem reverently and still have it sound good. 'Course your definition and my definition of "reverence" may differ from a lot of folks, especially the younger ones.




			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> What is a bother for me is the continuing trend of "re-arranging" and turning into pop/rap/country/jazz (sorry, Chas) a song that should, at least in my opinion, be sung reverently.


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## judkinsc

There is a great deal more "interpretation" by military, veteran, and civilian governmental groups about cleaning the flag than exists in the actual flag code.

The actual code for the Flag says only "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

There is no mention for the specific disposal of "newer textile" flags, although they are very prevalent. The Union (field of stars) on the flag is not suppose to be cut, which may be the reason cutting is not suggested.

One group suggests: 
"When your flag becomes dirty, wash it in warm water with a mild detergent, making sure to rinse it thoroughly—leaving no residue behind that can cause discoloration"

Thus, "by hand" or "by machine" is up to you, although I would take great care if placing it in a machine to be washed.

A new flag is suggested to be retired after 90 days, if made from nylon. It depends on the conditions of the area where it is flown, as well as if it is flown 24h/day or not. The flag can be flown 24h/day for several reasons, and should be properly illuminated. Otherwise, it should fly from dawn to dusk.


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