# Macedonian: jac



## Vulcho

От известно време се чудя, защо на македонски "jас" се пише със "с", вместо със "з"? Интересно, в банатския български също пишат "ás". Може би причината е съвсем очевидна, но на мен ми убягва...


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## DarkChild

Защото така се произнася. По-скоро трябва да питаш защо на български се пише със З.


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## iobyo

DarkChild said:


> Защото така се произнася.



The same could be said for _јаз _which wouldn't have an effect on pronunciation. 

I don't quite remember why it's written as such but I do recall reading something about it; it falls into the same group as _секогаш _(> *_секогаж_).


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## marco_2

I think that Macedonian spelling (like Serbian) generally reflects the fact that consonants change their voiced quality in certain positions: *сладак - слатко, излез - испит *etc., probably except for *в (овца).*


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## iobyo

marco_2 said:


> I think that Macedonian spelling (like Serbian) generally reflects the fact that consonants change their voiced quality in certain positions: *сладак - слатко, излез - испит *etc., probably except for *в (овца).*



That's correct. However, etymologically voiced consonants are preserved when in final position (such as your example _излез_ above).

As for /v/, its assimilation varies a great deal from dialect to dialect (or accent to accent), whereas in BCS it never devoices.


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## Bog Svarog

Even I, as a Macedonian, am often puzzled by the logic of the Macedonian spelling.

Az jаtified = Jaz
Azbuka remains azbuka, not јазбука
Bez remains bez
Bez becomes bes in besplatno
Then jaz should always be written as jaz....it doesn't make sense.

What can I say...I've never been a fan of mr. Vuk Karadžić, and never will be.


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Even I, as a Macedonian, am often puzzled by the logic of the Macedonian spelling.



The Bulgarian and Macedonian spelling rules are equally (il)logical when looked at objectively, but not so when a speaker of one looks at the other: assimilation is an 'automatic' phonological process in both languages. What I mean is that a Bulgarian would see _врапци_ as a spelling error and a Macedonian would see _врабци_ as a spelling error. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Az jаtified = Jaz
> Azbuka remains azbuka, not јазбука



_Јас_ derives diachronically from Proto-Slavic, whereas _азбука_ is a Church Slavonic borrowing. The Russians, for example, don't say *_ябука_.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Bez remains bez
> Bez becomes bes in besplatno



Please don't take this the wrong way, but the reason why we write _бесплатно_ is taught to primary school students.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Then jaz should always be written as jaz....it doesn't make sense.



I suspect two things: 1) words ending in a voiced consonant and which do not occur in any other paradigms are spelled phonetically (I gave another example above); 2) there is a tradition for spelling _јас _(judging by dialectal texts).  



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> What can I say...I've never been a fan of mr. Vuk Karadžić, and never will be.



All Macedonian texts prior to the standardization use the same type of spelling. Whether this was in imitation of Serbian or not is impossible to say.


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## Bog Svarog

iobyo said:


> The Bulgarian and Macedonian spelling rules are equally (il)logical when looked at objectively, but not so when a speaker of one looks at the other: assimilation is an 'automatic' phonological process in both languages. What I mean is that a Bulgarian would see _врапци_ as a spelling error and a Macedonian would see _врабци_ as a spelling error.


I will agree to both Bulgarian and Macedonian having illogical spelling, but I'm inclined to say that Macedonian is a lot more illogical.

_



			Јас
		
Click to expand...

_


> derives diachronically from Proto-Slavic, whereas _азбука_ is a Church Slavonic borrowing. The Russians, for example, don't say *_ябука_.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but OCS was "our" language back in that day, which we merely called "Slovencki".
So talking about an "OCS borrowing" from the Macedonian/Bulgarian perspective seems a bit odd to me, unless it was borrowed 1000 years later (I know some words have been).
Can you cite a source which explains what word for azbuka we used before azbuka?
If we have used azbuka for the past 1500 years, I will be inclined to say that it still must be "az", as in Bulgarian, and a jatification of it must be "jaz".
It's a matter of equality and consistency to me; "jas" just looks wrong in my eyes, if in the same language there is "azbuka", regardless.
It's not something unique to Macedonian ofcourse; in Dutch we have this same phenomena with f/v as well, and I don't like it either.



> Please don't take this the wrong way, but the reason why we write _бесплатно_ is taught to primary school students.


I've never been to a Macedonian school, so please enlighten me.
All I can think of is:
Bez = without
plat = pay
+ no 
= Bezplatno, as in Bulgarian. But we write besplatno, because we have a phonetic spelling.
Is there anything I'm missing?



> All Macedonian texts prior to the standardization use the same type of spelling. Whether this was in imitation of Serbian or not is impossible to say.


Seeing how Macedonia was occupied by Serbia from 1913 to 1941, and any non-Serb conciousness was supressed, I wouldn't attach much value to how spelling was in that period.
Pre-1913, I look at "Тъга за юг", and "I" is merely "я". This could be Struga-dialect, or Russian influence, but perhaps "јас" is a later invention...I don't know this.
However, if it is a later invention, then even more so it should be "јаз", because of "az(buka)" and "bez".


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## iobyo

Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> I will agree to both Bulgarian and Macedonian having illogical spelling, but I'm inclined to say that Macedonian is a lot more illogical.



My point was that it's in the eye of the beholder.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> So talking about an "OCS borrowing" from the Macedonian/Bulgarian perspective seems a bit odd to me, unless it was borrowed 1000 years later (I know some words have been).



Macedonian and Bulgarian were standardized based on their modern dialects. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Can you cite a source which explains what word for azbuka we used before azbuka?



The word _азбука _has been more or less fossilized since it was coined in OCS. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> If we have used azbuka for the past 1500 years, I will be inclined to say that it still must be "az", as in Bulgarian, and a jatification of it must be "jaz".



The prothetic /j/ is a later development. 



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> But we write besplatno, because we have a phonetic spelling.
> Is there anything I'm missing?



That's correct. They are neutralized to the same voicedness.



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Seeing how Macedonia was occupied by Serbia from 1913 to 1941, and any non-Serb conciousness was supressed, I wouldn't attach much value to how spelling was in that period.



So here's an example from 1814:

_Ясъ Мано х Петко_



			
				Bog Svarog said:
			
		

> Pre-1913, I look at "Тъга за юг", and "I" is merely "я". This could be Struga-dialect, or Russian influence, but perhaps "јас" is a later invention...I don't know this.



There are several variants among the dialects, and you won't find Russian influence in folk poetry.


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