# vrac



## tchev

I'm looking for a single english word that would convey both meanings of "miscellany" and "mess" like the french word "vrac" does. Does such a word exist?
Thanks!


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## valerie

WR dictionary says bulk


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## tchev

valerie said:
			
		

> WR dictionary says bulk


Yes, but I don't think it suits too well the meaning of "messy miscellany"...


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## Gil

tchev said:
			
		

> Yes, but I don't think it suits too well the meaning of "messy miscellany"...


You could check "a-tumble" and "pell mell" (pêle-mêle).  The problem is they are adjectives.  Could they still do the job?


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## craiguito

_hotch-potch_ maybe


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## tchev

I think you got the right meaning guys... but unfortunately I don't feel fully satisfied  (Feel free to insult me if you think I'm too demanding!!  )

Ok, how I want to use these words is a bit complicated, but I'll give a "similar" situation...

Imagine you work in a library shop, and you have to sort and store the books on the shelves by categories. You would have, say, 10 main categories (Sci-Fi, Romance, Comedy, Drama...). Then you would have an 11th category for all the books that do not fit in any of the 10 main categories. And then you would have a 12th category for all non-book publications like magazines, city guides, maps, and a few film DVDs, music CDs...

The question is... how would you label the 2 last categories? In french, I would label them "non classé" and "vrac". I would appreciate something less trivial than "other, misc, divers". And  "various" is reserved for another use.


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## Jabote

Tchev: _"how would you label the *last 2* categories?"
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



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Can't see what's wrong with miscellaneous...


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## Gil

tchev said:
			
		

> Then you would have an 11th category for all the books that do not fit in any of the 10 main categories. And then you would have a 12th category for all non-book publications like magazines, city guides, maps, and a few film DVDs, music CDs...
> 
> The question is... how would you label the 2 last categories? In french, I would label them "non classé" and "vrac". I would appreciate something less trivial than "other, misc, divers". And  "various" is reserved for another use.



11 - Autres livres
12 - Autres supports


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## tchev

Jabote said:
			
		

> Tchev: _"how would you label the *last 2* categories?"
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I first wrote "last 2", then changed for "2 last"... I never remember the right order... thanks Jabote.


			
				Jabote said:
			
		

> Can't see what's wrong with miscellaneous...


Well I'm currently using "miscellaneous" for "vrac" (12th) and "unfiled" for "non classé" (11th), but I thought that perhaps there would be something better. But maybe not.

Actually my classification hierarchy has too many "misc/others/various..." at same or different embedded levels, making it confusing, and I was looking for words with similar but different enough meanings to distinguish them.

And compound forms as Gil suggests are not really suitable in this case...


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## Jabote

Well then just "Others" maybe ?


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## RODGER

what about "other subjects" and "pot luck" ?

cheers

Rodger


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## tchev

Yeah, interesting, although "pot luck" would not fit in this case, it makes me think, by association of ideas, of (at,to,about  ) "random". Could "random" be used in a classification hierachy for "vrac"?


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## Sev

Moi il me semble que "random" véhicule une idée d'aléatoire, ce qui voudrait dire que ces livres ont atteri là par hasard...mais attendons l'avis d'un english native...


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## JeremyC

I agree with Rodger - if you've already got an "Unclassified" category of books and you want to use an informal expression, then your 12th category would be given a semi-humorous name such as "Pot luck", "Lucky Dip" or (in this example) "Anything but books". You certainly would not use "Random" on its own

Sorry, but I really can't think of a single English expression or word which conveys what you want.


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## leln

how about:

"bits and pieces" which is not really a very good translation of vrac but seems to make sense for your library situation?


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## zinc

JeremyC said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I really can't think of a single English expression or word which conveys what you want.


 Moi non plus et ça fait des jours que j’y réfléchis!


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## leln

also just thought os "bits and bobs" which is nicer than bits and pieces


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## Tsarina

In English there is a category called Grab Bag --- but I don't know how that would work with books in a store.


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## squeeky

how about diverse? vrac & divers are close neighbours in french...


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## tchev

Thanks a lot to everyone for your good ideas and comments. I think I'll keep the usual Others and Miscellaneous for the moment (might change my mind later...)
Your efforts where usefull anyway, I've learned a lot


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## jalkues75

We like to use the term hodge-podge,  e.g.   You appear to have a hodge-podge collection of books.   At times,  potpourri also works.


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## RODGER

Up to you tchev, but what the hell is the point of bothering all those people, who produced some really good suggestions, if you're going to stick to your initial idea ?

Rodger


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## gaer

tchev said:
			
		

> Actually my classification hierarchy has too many "misc/others/various..." at same or different embedded levels, making it confusing, and I was looking for words with similar but different enough meanings to distinguish them.
> 
> And compound forms as Gil suggests are not really suitable in this case...


 
When I saw "hotch-potch", I thought it was a mistake, but it's a great word. And it is quite correct to write it as one: hotchpotch.

Same with hodgepodge.

And if you are not dead-set against a new word in another language:

bits and pieces der Krimskrams 
gibberish der Krimskrams 
hodgepodge [Amer.] der Krimskrams 
hotchpotch [Brit.] der Krimskrams 
junk der Krimskrams 
medley der Krimskrams 
rubbish der Krimskrams 
odds and ends der Krimskrams 

Great German word. Leave out the article, just use *Krimskrams* 

It does have the meaning of junk, but it's softer and takes in all sorts of unmatched things that you just can't find another place for!


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## fetchezlavache

RODGER said:
			
		

> Up to you tchev, but what the hell is the point of bothering all those people, who produced some really good suggestions, if you're going to stick to your initial idea ?
> 
> Rodger



in my humble opinion you should watch out what you're saying, for you sound horribly mean and arrogant. *our suggestions in this forum are not gospel, and people seeking out our advice are still free not to follow said suggestions. *


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## gaer

RODGER said:
			
		

> Up to you tchev, but what the hell is the point of bothering all those people, who produced some really good suggestions, if you're going to stick to your initial idea ?
> 
> Rodger


 
I certainly did not feel bothered. 

These discussions take on a life of their own, and I always learn things by reading the suggestions. For instance, I had no idea that hotchpotch is the UK equivalent of our hodgepodge. I also did not know these two words do not need to be hyphenated. Vrac is a new word for me. Perhaps no one is the least bit interested in Krimkrams, but maybe someone is. Who knows?


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## RODGER

Thanks Gaer for not feeling bothered and for letting me express myself !

cheers

Rodger


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## gaer

RODGER said:
			
		

> Thanks Gaer for not feeling bothered and for letting me express myself !
> 
> cheers
> 
> Rodger


 
Well, I've fired off a few sharp comments myself in the past. I'm trying to reform. 

It seems strange, but words can really hurt because we can't see the person we're talking to, and we have no "background" about what kind of day he or she has had.

The same discussion that makes me smile on night might make me totally frustrated on another, if I've had a bad day.


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## tchev

I had a initial question. This thread has brought a brilliant answer to my question: what I was looking for does not exist.

I was _initialy _ using Various+Miscellaneous but, thanks to the valuable contributions of everyone in this thread, I have changed my mind for the _usual _ Others+Miscellaneous. Not a big move, especially when you don't know the context, but I'm quite satisfied with it though. Usual does not mean initial.

At the same time, I've learned many alternative expressions that I may use later and/or in other situations.
And, last but not least, I have clarified the usage of "random" in my mind (which is a word I use very often in a specific professional context).

For this, thank you so very much!! You helped me a lot.
I am very VERY grateful to all of you for whom helping is no bother.

And I'm actually interested, not by Krimkrams really  but... by "junk" you just mentioned. I also see that "scraps" can be a sysnonym...


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## gaer

tchev said:
			
		

> And I'm actually interested, not by Krimkrams really  but... by "junk" you just mentioned. I also see that "scraps" can be a sysnonym...


 
It's quite amazing how these discussion evolve. I wonder how many people feel as I do, that if I had it "all to over again", I'd spend my life exploring languages. I did not even know I was interested in them when I was young. Strange!


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## Kat LaQ

OK, slightly more than 2 years later, but I happened to be looking up "vrac". For the sense of "messy miscellany", I propose "odds and ends".

Better late than never .


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