# Levantine: He/she knows



## ihsaan

Hi,

I am sitting and listening to an audio file on my computer. When Arabic native speakers are saying the phrases: "he knows", "she knows", it almost sounds if there is a "b" in between the inte (b) ta3rif, inti (b) ta3rfi

I've tried to listen over and over again, but to my ears it sounds like a "b". I thought "b" was only used in the start of a verb for the 1st person?


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## elroy

No, the _b_ is there in all persons! 

In my variety of Palestinian Arabic, the _b_ is replaced by an _m_ in the 1st person plural, but the _b_ variant is alive and kicking in the Levant (as well as other places, like Egypt).

Here's a full conjugation:

_ana ba3raf
inte bti3raf
inti bti3rafi
huwwe b(y)i3raf
hiyye bti3raf
i7na mni3raf / bni3raf
intu bti3rafu
hinne/humme b(y)i3rafu_


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## Haroon

In some dialects , Egyptian for example  , there is really a ( b) letter and sound at the beginning of the verb with all pronouns , but it is not standard Arabic .


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## ihsaan

Ah, so it is a b I'm hearing then. I'm not crazy after all.

Thanks!

Yes, I know it is not standard arabic, and hence my lack of knowledge when it comes to conjugating verbs in dialects.


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## Nikola

ihsaan said:


> Ah, so it is a b I'm hearing then. I'm not crazy after all.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Yes, I know it is not standard arabic, and hence my lack of knowledge when it comes to conjugating verbs in dialects.


Look at resources 7 and 9 for more information on spoken Arabic.


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## ayed

I see this phenomenon is not limited to Arabic.I once heard an English-native uttering "at home" as " *arrhom*".It is a matter of quickness and accent.


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## clevermizo

And just in case you were curious, here's the conjugation in Syrian and Lebanese dialects:

_ba3ref
bta3ref
bta3rfi (or bta3rfe _in Lebanese)
_bya3ref
bta3ref
mna3ref
bta3rfu
bya3rfu

_In the Syrian and Lebanese dialects the sound 3 (ع) causes the first vowel to be 'a' in all persons. I'm not aware whether or not *bna3ref with the 'b' unchanged (as in some varieties of Palestinian) exists - mna3ref is all I've ever learned.


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## elroy

As an interesting tidbit, in Galilean the forms are (as usual) something of a cross between the Lebanese/Syrian ones and the Jerusalem ones (the ones from my first post):

_ba3ref_
_bti3ref_
_bti3irfi_
_bi3ref_
_bti3ref_
_mni3ref_
_bti3irfu_
_bi3irfu_

Notes:

1. In the third person, _y_ does not occur after the _b_. In Jerusalem, both forms occur (hence the parentheses in my first post).

2. In the first person plural, the form with _b_ does not occur. We can observe a gradual shift across a north-south dialect continuum (Egypt - _b _only; Jerusalem - _b _and _m_; Galilee/Lebanon/Syria - _m_ only).

As usual, Palestinian Arabic combines features of multiple surrounding dialects.


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## clevermizo

The thread title still seems broad enough for me to post this. Just out of curiosity, I wanted to know if there would ever be an occasion to use the "progressive" form, عم (ب)يعرف of this verb. So I googled a bit and found an example like this:

بدك تبعت رسالة حب للحبيب وما عم تعرف كيف بدك تبلش

What's the best way to translate عم تعرف? Is it just more emphatic than بتعرف here? My first instinct for a translation is "You want to send a love letter to your beloved but you don't know how you want to start (it)." However, is there a more precise translation that carries the meaning of عم تعرف, because it seems you could also say "بدك تبعت رسالة حب للحبيب وما بتعرف كيف بدك تبلش".


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## elroy

In Palestinian Arabic, we would not use the progressive in that context but the active verbal participle (مش عارف).  The former sounds Lebanese/Syrian to my ears, but it is readily understandable.

The difference between the progressive and the simple present in this case is a very subtle nuance.  While the latter simply expresses "not knowing," the former emphasizes the subject's inability to reach a state of knowing.  The AVP, as opposed to the present, connotes a "state of not knowing" as opposed to simply "not knowing."  In most contexts, مش عارف and بعرفش are interchangeable.

A translation into English that has the same feel as the progressive would be "can't seem to figure out," as opposed to just "don't know."

By the way, بدك in this context does not mean "want."  It is used to expresses the future ("how you _are going to_ start"), but an idiomatic translation into English would use the infinitive: "can't seem to figure out how _to start_."


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## yasmeena

clevermizo said:


> بدك تبعت رسالة حب للحبيب وما عم تعرف كيف بدك تبلش


ما عم تعرف is a repetitive مش عارف \ ما بتعرف
He tried; did not know how( ما بيعرف) . Tried again, and did not know how( ما بيعرف) . So he is ما عم يعرف . 


			
				elroy said:
			
		

> a "state of not knowing"


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## clevermizo

yasmeena said:


> ما عم تعرف is a repetitive مش عارف \ ما بتعرف
> He tried; did not know how( ما بيعرف) . Tried again, and did not know how( ما بيعرف) . So he is ما عم يعرف .



ٍSo just for fun, based upon Elroy's and your post, I will try to translate the following sentence:
_
I've been working on this math problem for two hours but I still can't seem to figure out how to solve it_.

صارلي ساعتين عم بشتغل بهالمشكلة الرياضية بس لسا مش عم بعرف كيف حلّها.
_Sarli se3ateen 3am bishtighel b-hal-mishkle* r-riyaaDiyye bas lissa mish 3am ba3ref kiif 7illa*.

* _As an aside, I'm not sure if مشكلة nor the verb حلّ are appropriate for this context or not.


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## yasmeena

clevermizo said:


> صارلي ساعتين عم بشتغل بهالمشكلة الرياضية بس لسا مش عم بعرف كيف حلّها.
> _Sarli se3ateen 3am bishtighel b-hal-mishkle* r-riyaaDiyye bas lissa mish 3am ba3ref kiif 7illa*._
> 
> _* _As an aside, I'm not sure if مشكلة nor the verb حلّ are appropriate for this context or not.


 
Bravo 

حل is appropriate , but مشكلة is not .

صارلي ساعتين عم بشتغل على هالمسألة الرياضية ، بس لسا مش عم بعرف كيف حلّها


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> _Sarli see3teen 3am bishtighel ba7ill* b-hal-mishkle* mas2alle r-riyaaDiyye bas lissa mish 3am ba3ref kiif 7illa* ._


 In Palestinian Arabic, we would say "mish 3aaref" (as per my previous post), but I think your usage of "3am ba3ref" would be correct in Syrian/Lebanese.

*_3am ba7ill_ can be used to mean "working on" or "*trying* to solve."


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## clevermizo

yasmeena said:


> Bravo
> 
> حل is appropriate , but مشكلة is not .
> 
> صارلي ساعتين عم بشتغل على هالمسألة الرياضية ، بس لسا مش عم بعرف كيف حلّها



Would you prefer _Sarli see3teen 3am b7ill hal-mas2ale_ (as per Elroy's comments), or does it sound just as natural to you as _3am bishtighel 3ala hal-mas2ale_?

Also, thanks to you and Elroy. You guys answered frighteningly fast.


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## yasmeena

You're welcome 

Both sound natural. Note that in Lebanese/Syrian Arabic, it is "3am 7ill" , not " 3am ba7ill".


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## clevermizo

yasmeena said:


> You're welcome
> 
> Both sound natural. Note that in Lebanese/Syrian Arabic, it is "3am 7ill" , not " 3am ba7ill".



Ah, I thought you could use either one _3am+b_ or just _3am_. I tend to use them both interchangeably in my own speech. Then again, I don't have a native dialect like native speakers, so people have no "expectations" about how I should speak .


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## yasmeena

Well , in some cases, you can use both interchangeably. I think it depends on the حركة on the 'b'. 

For example, you can say both : 
عم إدرس عربي \ عم بدرس عربي
عم آكل تفاح \ عم باكل تفاح


With other verbs however, due to double sukoon إلتقاء الساكنين , you have to eliminate the 'b'.
In Palestinian, it is '3am ba7ill' عم بَحل with a fat7a فتحة on the 'b' , so there is no problem. But try to pronounce that with the Lebanese سكون on the 'b' ; '3am b7ill' عمْ بْحل - not easy, right ? That's why we eliminate the 'b'. 
Another example is '3am bdawwer' عمْ بْدوّر , again we have 2 سكون, so we eliminate the 'b' ending up with 3am dawwer عم دوّر.

As I type now, I'm trying to think of the cases in which the 'b' comes with a sukoon, thus has to be eliminated . I don't know how accurate this may be, but it seems to me that verbs starting with an (أ) are those that take a 'b'.

عم إلعب \ بلعب 
عم إرتاح \ برتاح
عم إمزح \ بمزح
عم أعطي \ بعطي
عم إجي \ بجي

عم لوّن
عم ودّع
عم صوّر
عم روح 
عم شوف

I hope this isn't too confusing


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## clevermizo

yasmeena said:


> With other verbs however, due to double sukoon إلتقاء الساكنين , you have to eliminate the 'b'.
> In Palestinian, it is '3am ba7ill' عم بَحل with a fat7a فتحة on the 'b' , so there is no problem. But try to pronounce that with the Lebanese سكون on the 'b' ; '3am b7ill' عمْ بْحل - not easy, right ? That's why we eliminate the 'b'.
> Another example is '3am bdawwer' عمْ بْدوّر , again we have 2 سكون, so we eliminate the 'b' ending up with 3am dawwer عم دوّر.
> ....
> I hope this isn't too confusing



No, actually it makes perfect sense! I just assumed if you actually said عم بحلّ it would come out عم إبْحل because, indeed, it would be too hard to pronounce. So you have to either add a vowel, or get rid of the ب, and it seems that actually you just get rid of the ب.

Thanks!


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