# Rumi = Roman = Anatolian?



## Abu Rashid

Moved from here.


			
				Om1 said:
			
		

> And is there really such a link between Rumi and Anatolian?



Yes, rumi is often used for things/people from Anatolia, like the famous sufi mystic Jalal'ad-Deen ar-Rumi. He was not Roman, and actually not even Anatolian (he was from a place now in Afghanistan, originally) but he became known as ar-Rumi due to Anatolia being the place he lived most of his life. Rum was equivalent to Byzantium in the early Islamic period, and so anything Rumi generally refers to coming from the land of Byzantium, which was Anatolia.


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## 0m1

Abu Rashid said:


> Yes, rumi is often used for things/people from Anatolia, like the famous sufi mystic Jalal'ad-Deen ar-Rumi. He was not Roman, and actually not even Anatolian (he was from a place now in Afghanistan, originally) but he became known as ar-Rumi due to Anatolia being the place he lived most of his life. Rum was equivalent to Byzantium in the early Islamic period, and so anything Rumi generally refers to coming from the land of Byzantium, which was Anatolia.



Ahh right, I knew there was a definite link between Ruum and the Byzantines (as extensions of the Romans), but I didn't know the term applied to the geographic area too, interesting  

Hm, but actually, am I right in assuming that after the Turkic conquest of Anatolia the name was fairly swiftly dropped, or did in fact continue to apply to Turkic Anatolia for a while afterwards too?

EDIT: On second thought, the Ottoman Sultans did like to call themselves Kaisar-i-Rum didn't they, though perhaps that's more of a nod towards Istanbul/Constantinople, and hence Rome, seeing themselves as successors to the Romans (hence the Kaisar bit too), rather than as a result of ther rule of Anatolia...


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## Abu Rashid

Om1 said:
			
		

> Hm, but actually, am I right in assuming that after the Turkic conquest  of Anatolia the name was fairly swiftly dropped, or did in fact continue  to apply to Turkic Anatolia for a while afterwards too?



This is an assumption many make, but I don't think it was so. Likewise many assume the name Constantinople was swiftly dropped, but it most certainly was not. In fact the name was only dropped about 80 years ago. I have coins minted in 1912 which say on them "Darb fi Qustantiniyah".



			
				Om1 said:
			
		

> On second thought, the Ottoman Sultans did like to call themselves  Kaisar-i-Rum didn't they, though perhaps that's more of a nod towards  Istanbul/Constantinople, and hence Rome, seeing themselves as successors  to the Romans (hence the Kaisar bit too), rather than as a result of  ther rule of Anatolia...



It was because they ruled over the [Eastern] Roman lands. The first Turks to take the area were the Salajaqa and they were indeed called Salajaqa ar-Rum. Note also that Jalal'ad-Deen ar-Rumi lived a few centuries after the Turks had already conquered Anatolia, so it continued to be used to some extent. When the Ottomans arrived, Anatolia was already mostly Turkic, and had been so for a few centuries. They actually came as refugees there, seeking refuge from the Mongol onslaught. In Arabic it's quite clear the term Rumi refers to "of Anatolia" and has little to do with the actual city Rome.


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## sokol

Yes of course, "Rumi" derives from "Roman", as the Byzantine Emperors called themselves "Romans" too (even though their half of the Empire was the Greek one).
And the Seljuks living closest to the Byzantine Empire were called the Rum-Seljuks: they were named after them, so to speak.


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## Masjeen

sokol said:


> Yes of course, "Rumi" derives from "Roman", as the Byzantine Emperors called themselves "Romans" too (even though their half of the Empire was the Greek one).


 
rum: arabised word (from romans) 
(i): it is the Standard method to Attribute someone or something to  something

so.. 
Rum + i = an roman

During the Middle Ages, Arabs were called their neighbors in Anatolia Rum.



Abu Rashid said:


> Yes, rumi is often used for things/people from Anatolia.


 
Of course not, rumi is only used for things/people from Byzantine Empire Which was governing Anatolia or let's say they were Considering it as part of their country


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## shawnee

sokol said:


> Yes of course, "Rumi" derives from "Roman", as the Byzantine Emperors called themselves "Romans" too (even though their half of the Empire was the Greek one).
> And the Seljuks living closest to the Byzantine Empire were called the Rum-Seljuks: they were named after them, so to speak.



Yes. Though it was not just the emperors who used the term. The people of the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves Romans though they were Greek speaking. So this is the term that described that whole region known to Arab Caliphates and Turkic Sultanates as Rum.


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## sound shift

Yes. Hence "Erzurum", a city in Eastern Anatolia. Erz-u-Rum = Land of the Romans (i.e. Byzantines), if I'm not mistaken.


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## apmoy70

shawnee said:


> Yes. Though it was not just the emperors who used the term. The people of the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves Romans though they were Greek speaking. So this is the term that described that whole region known to Arab Caliphates and Turkic Sultanates as Rum.


A name that has survived until today in traditional folksongs or in poetry: «Ρωμιός, Ρωμιά» (Romi'os _m._, Romi'a _f._) a derivation of «Ῥωμαῖος» (Rhō'mæos, _the Roman_), was the Greek speaking Orthodox Cristian subject of the Byzantine Empire; besides, Eastern Romans called their Empire «Ῥωμανία» (Rhōma'nia _f._) and not _Byzantium_


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## DenisBiH

If this article is correct, it survives to this day in a derived form, used by Pontic Greek-speaking Turks to refer to their dialect.




> Muslims of Pontic Greek origins, speakers of the Pontic language (named *Ρωμαίικα Roméika*, not Ποντιακά Pontiaká as it is in Greece), which is spoken by some people in Tonya, Maçka, Sürmene, Çaykara, and Dernekpazarı districts of Trabzon.


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## apmoy70

DenisBiH said:


> If this article is correct, it survives to this day in a derived form, used by Pontic Greek-speaking Turks to refer to their dialect.


Yep, the Rumca


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## Abu Rashid

sokol said:
			
		

> And the Seljuks living closest to the Byzantine Empire were called the  Rum-Seljuks: they were named after them, so to speak.



Already mentioned: _"The first Turks to take the area were the Salajaqa and they were indeed  called Salajaqa ar-Rum." (Salajaqa ar-Rum = Rum-Seljuks)

_


			
				Masjeen said:
			
		

> Of course  not, rumi is only used for things/people from Byzantine Empire Which was governing Anatolia or  let's say they were Considering it as part of  their country




I've already mentioned Salajaqa ar-Rum and also famous people like Jalal'ad-Deen ar-Rumi, neither of which were anything to do with the Byzantine empire, but were both named as Rumi, merely because they were in the land of Anatolia.

I'm sure there's plenty of other cases as well.


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## sokol

Abu Rashid said:


> Already mentioned: _"The first Turks to take the area were the Salajaqa and they were indeed  called Salajaqa ar-Rum." (Salajaqa ar-Rum = Rum-Seljuks)_


_
Right, I didn't recognise (at first sight) the Arabic version of this name as their term for Seljuks. _


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## Masjeen

حسنا ببدو أنك محق.. قرأت ما كتبه ابن بطولة قبل 600 عام (1400م) هو يقول أنه انتقل من اللاذقية إلى بر تركيا (حسب وصفه!) وقال أن هذه البلاد معروفة باسم بلاد الروم لأن سكانها سابقا كانوا من الروم وأن كثير من سكانها اليوم سنة 1400 هم النصارى وحكامها من تركمان 

وهو يسمي الأنضول ببلاد الروم.. لذا يبدو أن الأنضول كانت تعرف ببلاد الروم


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## Abu Rashid

sokol said:
			
		

> Right, I didn't recognise (at first sight) the Arabic version of this  name as their term for Seljuks.



Yes because I used the Arabic broken plural, the singular is saljuq, that English transliteration you use doesn't represent the actual pronunciation, but instead the Turkish spelling, I think.


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## apmoy70

Masjeen said:


> حسنا ببدو أنك محق.. قرأت ما كتبه ابن بطولة قبل 600 عام (1400م) هو يقول أنه انتقل من اللاذقية إلى بر تركيا (حسب وصفه!) وقال أن هذه البلاد معروفة باسم بلاد الروم لأن سكانها سابقا كانوا من الروم وأن كثير من سكانها اليوم سنة 1400 هم النصارى وحكامها من تركمان
> 
> وهو يسمي الأنضول ببلاد الروم.. لذا يبدو أن الأنضول كانت تعرف ببلاد الروم


Would you please translate it into English for us who do not read/speak Arabic ?
Thank you


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## Masjeen

Masjeen said:


> حسنا ببدو أنك محق.. قرأت ما كتبه ابن بطولة قبل 600 عام (1400م) هو يقول أنه انتقل من اللاذقية إلى بر تركيا (حسب وصفه!) وقال أن هذه البلاد معروفة باسم بلاد الروم لأن سكانها سابقا كانوا من الروم وأن كثير من سكانها اليوم سنة 1400 هم النصارى وحكامها من تركمان
> 
> وهو يسمي الأنضول ببلاد الروم.. لذا يبدو أن الأنضول كانت تعرف ببلاد الروم


 
Translation:
Well, yes you are right ..  I read what was written by Ibn Batuta before 600 years (1400) he says that he has moved from Latakia to Turkey mainland(according to his recipe!), he Said that the country known as the roman lands because the population in the past were roman and the  most current population today are Christians but the rulers are Turkmen

 and he calles Anatolia as  Roman lands .. 
So Anatolia were called roman land in the  Middle Ages at least for the arabs


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## apmoy70

Masjeen said:


> Translation:
> Well, yes you are right ..  I read what was written by Ibn Batuta before 600 years (1400) he says that he has moved from Latakia to Turkey mainland(according to his recipe!), he Said that the country known as the roman lands because the population in the past were roman and the  most current population today are Christians but the rulers are Turkmen
> 
> and he calles Anatolia as  Roman lands ..
> So Anatolia were called roman land in the  Middle Ages at least for the arabs


Thank you very much...well, yes, it makes sense


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## WadiH

0m1 said:


> Hm, but actually, am I right in assuming that after the Turkic conquest of Anatolia the name was fairly swiftly dropped, or did in fact continue to apply to Turkic Anatolia for a while afterwards too?



Ruum basically referred to both Greeks (via the Byzantines) and Turks (as inheritors of the Byzantine realm).  That's how, as Abu Rashid explained, Anatolia came to be known as _Ruum _in the Middle East.  When the Ottomans invaded and occupied Arabia in the 19th century, they were referred to by the locals as _Ruum_.  There's even a location north of Riyadh known as قصير الروم (_gSeeir er-Ruum_), because the Ottoman had once set up a small fort there.


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## OldAvatar

The Turks used to name the Vallachs <Rumân> too.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Yes because I used the Arabic broken plural, the singular is saljuq, that English transliteration you use doesn't represent the actual pronunciation, but instead the Turkish spelling, I think.


The (modern) Turkish spelling is _Selçuk _and _Seljuk _is an English adaptation. And why should this not be the "actual" pronunciation? After all, it is "actually" a Turkish name.


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## seyyah

Rum continued to be used in Ottoman times. You can see it in the name: Rumeli for example. Presently, Rum means Greek of Turkey or Cyprus (but not of Greece!)


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## Cynastros

As far as I know the  ,  Rum -  Ρωμιοί - Ρωμαίοι - Romans, are the Christian  people of the Byzantine Empire.  
  The Greeks called ,  Ίωνες -  Ions -   yunani.
_a_ يونانیان _yūnānī,_ One Grecian; anything Greek, Grecian; Hellenist.


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## Faylasoof

In many of our South Asian languages and cultures too, especially that of Urduphones  which has been greatly influenced by both Persian and Arabic languages, the Anatolian (اناطولی_ anaTuulii_ ) region was often historically referred to as Rome (روم_ Rûm_). Not so now. We call it _turkii_ تُرکِی, just like in English it is now _Turkey_.



0m1 said:


> ...
> EDIT: On second thought, the Ottoman Sultans did like to call themselves Kaisar-i-Rum didn't they, though perhaps that's more of a nod towards Istanbul/Constantinople, and hence Rome, seeing themselves as successors to the Romans (hence the Kaisar bit too), rather than as a result of ther rule of Anatolia...


 
The Ottoman Sultan Mehmmed II did indeed take on the title Qayser-e-Rum (or Kaiser-i-Rûm) and the reference here really was to Byzantium - the eastern Roman Empire, which was essentially Greek. The same reference to Byzantium you find earlier in the Quran, where there is a separate chapter called _Surah Ar-R__û__m_ (number 30).

The Rûm-Turkish connection seems to be there even in the Arabic names of _turkey _and_ wild turkey_, the birds, which are respectively calledديك رومي (_diik rûmii_ ) /دجاج   رومي (_dajaaj_ _rûmii_) and الديك الرومي البري(_ad-diik ar- rûmii al-barrii_). 
As mentioned above, the poet Jalaaluddin has the epithet _rûmii _attached to his name, given that he settled in Konia, eastern Turkey. In Urdu, we always refer to this Persophone mystic poet (Jalaaluddin) from Balx / Balkh (present-day Afghanistan) as مولانا روم_maulana _(same as the Turkish _mevlana_) _rûm_ or simply  رومى_ rûmii _(Roman). 



berndf said:


> The (modern) Turkish spelling is _Selçuk _and _Seljuk _is an English adaptation. And why should this not be the "actual" pronunciation? After all, it is "actually" a Turkish name.


 Actually, you are right Bernd! Either _Seljuk_ or _Saljuq _is the normal way to refer in English to this Sultanate of Rûm - these “inheritors” of the Eastern Roman Empire. Both spellings are used. Modern Turkish no longer has a _q_ = ق sound hence a q -> k shift! Traditionally it was _Saljuq or __Seljuq_. Here and here. 



Cynastros said:


> As far as I know the , Rum - Ρωμιοί - Ρωμαίοι - Romans, are the Christian people of the Byzantine Empire.
> The Greeks called , Ίωνες - Ions - yunani.
> _a_يونانیان _yūnānī,_ One Grecian; anything Greek, Grecian; Hellenist.



I _almost_ concur with you on both counts!

While it is entirely true that by _Rûm_ we always refer to Byzantium but, as shown above, the name later on came to mean the Anatolian region as well and people and things from there were frequently referred to as either _Rûm_ or _Rûmii_. 

As for _Greece_, you are right that the Arabic-Persian-Urdu word for Greece has a Greek origin (!), it being _yunaan _يونان is indeed derived from Ἰωνία or Ἰωνίη. [BTW, Greek*s* are يونانیان  - Persian plural or Arabic nominative dual (two Greeks)]. While Greek / Grecian is يونانی (reference to mainland Greece) but _not necessarily_ even when it came from the “Greek” Byzantine period, e.g. Greek fire used by Byzantines against the Arabs in 674 CE. It is normally referred to as نار الإغريق_ naar-ul-2ighreeq_, at least in Modern Standard Arabic.  There is no reference to either _yunaanii_ يونانی= Greek / Grecian or even الروم_ ar-rûm_ = Byzantium / رومى_ rûmii_ = Byzantine.


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## Abu Rashid

berndf said:
			
		

> The (modern) Turkish spelling is Selçuk and Seljuk is an English adaptation. And why should this not be the "actual" pronunciation? After all, it is "actually" a Turkish name.



The modern Turkish orthography tries to fit the Turkish sounds into the Latin alphabet. In all languages in which the word was used in the Muslim world throughout it's history, it was always spelled with a 'qof' and never a 'kaf' as far as I'm aware. In Persian, Urdu, Arabic and Ottoman Turkish.



			
				Faylasoof said:
			
		

> Actually, you are right Bernd!



Not that it's that important who's right or wrong, but how on earth does it make him right if the original word is saljuq and not seljuk???


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> In all languages in which the word was used in the Muslim world throughout it's history, it was always spelled with a 'qof' and never a 'kaf' as far as I'm aware. In Persian, Urdu, Arabic and Ottoman Turkish.


...which was an attempt to fit the Turkish sound into the Latin Arabic alphabet. Neither Turkish nor Persian nor Urdu have the Qof sound. In Arabic (and Hebrew too, for that matter; I am not sure about Aramaic) it is customary to transcribe /k/ sounds in foreign words by qof rather than kaf. I am not quite sure why; I always wondered. In Hebrew and Aramaic it makes sense because the kaf has two allophones, /k/ and /x/ while qof is always the same. Maybe Arabic just copied the habit from Aramaic, I don't know.


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## origumi

berndf said:


> ...which was an attempt to fit the Turkish sound into the Latin Arabic alphabet. Neither Turkish nor Persian nor Urdu have the Qof sound. In Arabic (and Hebrew too, for that matter; I am not sure about Aramaic) it is customary to transcribe /k/ sounds in foreign words by qof rather than kaf. I am not quite sure why; I always wondered. In Hebrew and Aramaic it makes sense because the kaf has two allophones, /k/ and /x/ while qof is always the same. Maybe Arabic just copied the habit from Aramaic, I don't know.


Hebrew is inconsistent. The old name for Turkey (the country), for example, was תור*כ*יה, now it's טור*ק*יה (kaf in the past, qof today). Alexander is אל*כ*סנדר (kaf) while most "x" words are transliterated to "*ק*ס" (qof). The sounds are identical in modern Hebrew (and apparently for hundreds of years, at least in many communities) so mixing the two is natural. In modern time qof is usually preferred for European words, the original letter (whatever it is) for Semitic words, and again with exceptions: Iraq is עירק (qof instead of kaf), simply because kaf at end of word would sound as khaf (pronounced like "dirty" kh).

Therefore Hebrew spelling is not a good tool to tell the difference.


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## DenisBiH

> Not that it's that important who's right or wrong, but how on earth does it make him right if the original word is saljuq and not seljuk???


berndf already answered this, but just to add some additional perspective: as you of course know, Arabic alphabet had been adapted to write many languages, and I'm not sure that the Arabic spelling can tell us precisely what the original word was and how it was pronounced, that would be more in the domain of comparative & historical linguistics. As an example, Bosnian never had the sound qaf, nor does it have it now, yet the adapted Arabic alphabet used to write it during Ottoman times used qaf to represent k - here's an example (some, if not most, native Slavic words with a k were written with q in this text)

Unless you want to say that the word seljuk (or whatever it's spelled in different languages) is of Arabic origin, the Arabic representation of it is not much more relevant than the English one.


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## Abu Rashid

berndf said:
			
		

> ...which was an attempt to fit the Turkish sound into the Latin Arabic alphabet.



As Faylasoof already mentioned: _"Modern Turkish no longer has a q = ق sound hence a q -> k shift! Traditionally it was Saljuq or Seljuq."_



			
				DenisBiH said:
			
		

> Unless you want to say that the word seljuk (or whatever it's spelled in different languages) is of Arabic origin, the Arabic representation of it is not much more relevant than the English one.



Previously Turks seem to have distinguished between qof and kaf. When they adopted the Latin alphabet, they all merged into kaf (perhaps prior to that phonemically I'm not sure). So it is relevant.

The word Turk for instance was borrowed into Arabic with kaf, yet the word Saljuq with qof, obviously there's some difference that existed there previously. The explanation that foreign words always get borrowed with qof is just not relevant to Arabic, whatever it's relevance to Aramaic or Hebrew.


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## DenisBiH

The most reasonable approach, in my opinion, is to try and see what the Turkic/Turkish etymology of seljuk/saljuq is, and whether the qaf sound ever existed there.

The fact that Turks used both k and q in writing is interesting, but does not necessarily mean they distinguished those sounds in speech. They may have, for example, written qaf in Arabic loanwords that contained it.


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## Cynastros

*Seljuks*; in Turkish _Selçuklular_; in Persian: سلجوقيان _Ṣ__aljūqīyān_; in Arabic سلجوق _Saljūq_, pl. السلاجقة _al-Salājiqa_) 
  Sorry, what is the etymology of the adjective. I guess some ancestor or place had this name in the beginning.


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## DenisBiH

I'm not sure if I may link to other forums, so I will not provide a link at this time, but this is something that might be of interest, if it is indeed correct.




> Firstly, in Ottoman Turkish grammar there is a rule, "thick" wovels are used with "thick" consonants. Since U is a thick wovel, it should be used with a thick consonant kaf ق not with kef ك .


if this is correct, we may even be talking about an orthographic rule of Ottoman Turkish as the reason for the use of both k and q in it.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> As Faylasoof already mentioned: _"Modern Turkish no longer has a q = ق sound_


Nor did Ottoman Turkish. There never was no sound shift /kˁ/>/k/ but merely a change in spelling doing away with an orthographic distinction which phonetically never existed anyway.


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## Faylasoof

DenisBiH said:


> I'm not sure if I may link to other forums, so I will not provide a link at this time, but this is something that might be of interest, if it is indeed correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, in Ottoman Turkish grammar there is a rule, "thick" wovels are used with "thick" consonants. Since U is a thick wovel, it should be used with a thick consonant kaf ق not with kef ك .
> 
> 
> 
> if this is correct, we may even be talking about an orthographic rule of Ottoman Turkish as the reason for the use of both k and q in it.
Click to expand...

In Ottoman Turkish and the Turkic dialects the _qaaf _(ق = q) is pronounced distinctly from _kaaf _(ک = k) . 
Arabic is not the only language with this sound distinction and in fact shares it with Ottoman Turkish, many (if not all) Turkic dialects and Urdu. In Persian it is a little complicated as I briefly explain below, although I must stress that the spelling we use in Arabic, Persian and Urdu for _Saljuq _is exactly the same سَلجوُق . 

Here is the etymology for the word in English for all it is worth.




berndf said:


> Neither Turkish nor Persian nor Urdu have the Qof sound.


 Just a small correction Bernd! Ottoman Turkish, Persian and Urdu all have _qaaf_ (ق = q) . The sound is no different in Ottoman Turkish and Urdu than in Arabic. In Persian it is variable as some in some regions of Iran you hear it as a _qaaf _while in others it sounds like more the French <r> in <rouge>. In fact, the latter is the standard, Tehrani pronunciation.



Cynastros said:


> *Seljuks*; in Turkish _Selçuklular_; in Persian: سلجوقيان_Ṣ__aljūqīyān_; in Arabicسلجوق _Saljūq_, pl. السلاجقة _al-Salājiqa_)
> Sorry, what is the etymology of the adjective. I guess some ancestor or place had this name in the beginning.


 _Sejuq Baig_ was the reputed ancestor of the _Saljuqs_!

Edit: 
Bernd, I just saw your latest post. What I say above ábout the sound shift between Old and Modern Turkish was conveyed to me by a Turkish colleague who is familiar with Ottoman Turkish.


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## berndf

Faylasoof said:


> Bernd, I just saw your latest post. What I say above ábout the sound shift between Old and Modern Turkish was conveyed to me by a Turkish colleague who is familiar with Ottoman Turkish.


Ok, we have different information then. Concerning Farsi, what you describe is [G] not [q] or [kˁ]. But Old Persian apparently had [q]. The official language of the Seljuk empire was Persian though the name (Seljuk Bey) is Turkish. Maybe the spelling corresponds to the Persian pronunciation.


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## Faylasoof

berndf said:


> Ok, we have different information then. Concerning Farsi, what you describe is [G] not [q] or [kˁ]. But Old Persian apparently had [q]. The official language of the Seljuk empire was Persian though the name (Seljuk Bey) is Turkish. Maybe the spelling corresponds to the Persian pronunciation.


 
Well, for Farsi it seems to be variable. Some regions of Iran and esp. the Persophone Afghans pronounce _qaaf _clearly. But in other places it is a <gh = French 'r' > or <= [G]> as you say. I assume I'm clear about this. 
(This I didn't know!)
It is true they were bilingual (Turkish-Persian), just like the Moghuls of India. The speling the same for Persian, Arabic and Urdu.


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## seyif

Cynastros said:


> *Seljuks*; in Turkish _Selçuklular_; in Persian: سلجوقيان _Ṣ__aljūqīyān_; in Arabic سلجوق _Saljūq_, pl. السلاجقة _al-Salājiqa_)
> Sorry, what is the etymology of the adjective. I guess some ancestor or place had this name in the beginning.



In Ottoman Turkish dictionary the spelling is same with the Arabic one(سلجوقي). In my opinion for a Turk it is hard to say "Sel*j*uk/Sel*c*uk" it changed to Sel*ç*uk.


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