# Schadenfreude



## Robert Bennie

Dear forum,

Is schadenfreude a word in common use?

What does schadenfreude mean to you?

Is the emotion of schadenfreude common?

Are there alternative words that mean schadenfreude?

Sincerely,

Robert Bennie.


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## jacinta

Hello, Robert;

Well, I've learned a new word today.  Because this is a term used in the English language, it belongs in that forum.  I will move it there for you.


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## te gato

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> Dear forum,
> 
> Is schadenfreude a word in common use?
> 
> What does schadenfreude mean to you?
> 
> Is the emotion of schadenfreude common?
> 
> Are there alternative words that mean schadenfreude?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Robert Bennie.


Hey Robert;
The *word *is not very common..but what it means..Yes...
Sadly...I think that it is a fact of life..maybe even human nature..to get pleasure out of something bad happening to another person...It personally makes me sick..but it is done..and some people thrive on it..they are not happy unless someone else is sad..and beaten...and hopeless...Maybe it gives them an EGO boost..I don't quite know why....

te gato


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## Whodunit

Hi Robert,

no, te gato is right, this is not a common word in English. But in German. It is a German word that means "malicious glee", it's simply a loanword.

Here you have some synonyms and translations.


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## Axl

Pleasure derived form the misfortune of others.

Axl.


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## Artrella

New word to me, in English and in German.  Good to know it... it applies to many, many, many people.  Although not common as the English-speaking natives have expressed, it is really a good one,  just one word to describe such awful feeling.


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## Jeremy Sharpe

While it's true that it's not very common, it is by no means never used. I hear and use it once in a while.

And yes, it means 'taking pleasure in someone else's pain.' (but do not confuse it with 'sadism', which is 'taking pleasure in inflicting pain on someone else')


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## Robert Bennie

G'day Jeremy 
Pleased to meet you

So a sadistic schadenfreuder would be a caution

Robert


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## Whodunit

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> G'day Jeremy
> Pleased to meet you
> 
> So a sadistic schadenfreuder would be a caution
> 
> Robert



schadenfreuder doesn't exist. Neither in German nor in English.


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## Robert Bennie

G'day Whodunit

Thank you for that but I must say that it does exist in Australian.  We borrowed your word and then applied our rules to it therefore schadenfreude is a concept but a schadenfreuder is a person who employs schadenfreude.

What is the German term for a person who uses schadenfreude?

Danke

Robert


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## Agnès E.

Bonjour Robert,
I know the adjective "schadenfroh" for a person feeling Schadenfreude.
I am not sure about the possibily of any noun related to this state.


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## gaer

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> G'day Whodunit
> 
> Thank you for that but I must say that it does exist in Australian.


Interesting!

I've warned people from other countries that we love to "verb" things. But we "noun" things too. 

In fact, "a sadistic schadenfreuder" seems like linguistic-overkill, since anyone who gets enjoyment from the misfortunes of others already seems rather "sadistic" to me. 

G


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## Robert Bennie

G'day Agnes E.

When I look at your post 'Schadenfreude' looks as though it would sound like an angry word and 'schadenfroh' looks as though it would sound sad when spoken.

Would that be correct?

Robert


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## Agnès E.

Excuse me Robert, do you mean the real sound of the word when pronounced, or do you mean the mental image of the word when read?


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## Robert Bennie

Actually it was the shape of the word on the page at first.  Schadenfreude looked harsh and pointy and schadenfro looked almost rhythmical.  I know nothing of German pronunciation other than the cartoon accents on film and backpackers on the streets of Byron who all want to say g'day.  That does sound funny.

Robert


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## gaer

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> Actually it was the shape of the word on the page at first. Schadenfreude looked harsh and pointy and schadenfro looked almost rhythmical. I know nothing of German pronunciation other than the cartoon accents on film and backpackers on the streets of Byron who all want to say g'day. That does sound funny.
> 
> Robert


Be aware that "sadistical schadenfreuder" sounds VERY weird to those of us who read German. 

Gaer


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## Agnès E.

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> Actually it was the shape of the word on the page at first. Schadenfreude looked harsh and pointy and schadenfro looked almost rhythmical. I know nothing of German pronunciation other than the cartoon accents on film and backpackers on the streets of Byron who all want to say g'day. That does sound funny.
> 
> Robert



Well, German is a very rhythmical language, by the way. That's why I like pronouncing it, it is so easy in spite of the apparent difficulty of the words when you don't know them.
Schadenfroh is ended by a long "Ohhhhh" (I'm obviously exagerating in an explaination purpose), while Schadenfreude is shorter, and sharper pronounciated. Froh means "happy", it's a nice word to say!


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## gaer

Agnes E. said:
			
		

> Well, German is a very rhythmical language, by the way. That's why I like pronouncing it, it is so easy in spite of the apparent difficulty of the words when you don't know them.
> Schadenfroh is ended by a long "Ohhhhh" (I'm obviously exagerating in an explaination purpose), while Schadenfreude is shorter, and sharper pronounciated. Froh means "happy", it's a nice word to say!


True, but schadenfroh is an ugly, ugly word because of the way "joy" is perverted. 

Gaer


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## Agnès E.

Yes, Schadenfreude is a perfect dichotomy: you just place two perfect opposite words to built a new one!


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## gaer

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> G'day Agnes E.
> 
> When I look at your post 'Schadenfreude' looks as though it would sound like an angry word and 'schadenfroh' looks as though it would sound sad when spoken.
> 
> Would that be correct?
> 
> Robert


No. Schadenfreude is the noun form and should properly be capitalized in German. The adjective form is schadenfroh.

Freude=joy
Ich bin froh…, I'm glad…
Schade=harm, adversity, etc.

Schadenfreude=malicious glee 
schadenfroh=maliciously gleeful

I would caution you to be careful how you use these words!

Normally this would be a topic for German, but since these words are also used in English, I think it's good for other people to know what these words really mean. 

Gaer


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## Robert Bennie

Sorry mate
Probably good advice but I'm notoriously bad at taking good advice.

I reckon that if I bump into a schadenfreuder they'll get sick of hearing the word from me.

Robert


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## gaer

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> Sorry mate
> Probably good advice but I'm notoriously bad at taking good advice.


Now why does that not surprise me?  

Gaer


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## la grive solitaire

I've heard Schadenfreude used quite a lot, perhaps more written than spoken. Although its meaning and prevalence make me sad, it's interesting linguistically since as Agnès pointed out, it's a near-oxymoron.


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## mjscott

4/19/05 7:40 p.m.
On Jeapoardy: An answer to the question,
What is a person who gets joy out of someone else's pain?


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## te gato

mjscott said:
			
		

> 4/19/05 7:40 p.m.
> On Jeapoardy: An answer to the question,
> What is a person who gets joy out of someone else's pain?


Oh oh oh ..
Can I play??
An a**..  in Alberta English... a Schadenfreude in that other English..

te gato


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## gaer

la grive solitaire said:
			
		

> I've heard Schadenfreude used quite a lot, perhaps more written than spoken. Although its meaning and prevalence make me sad, it's interesting linguistically since as Agnès pointed out, it's a near-oxymoron.


I almost answered this last night but was too tired.

In this case I don't agree. German compound nouns work in a different way.

The second noun tends to "possess" the first, so the meaning is more like:

The "enjoyment of" or "delight at" "pain" (of others). It's actually sadistic in nature. I see nothing "oxymoronic" about the enjoyment of misfortune happening to other people. Just meanness. There is nothing unuusal or unepected happening when someone enjoys the defeat of another person, or when a group of people enjoys the defeat of another group. Schadenfreude just takes it to a more horrible level. Malicious glee is not an oxymoron. It's the description of evil.

I really hate this word, yet I think it is necessary because it describes something truly evil in human beings better than any other words I've ever seen. 

Gaer


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## LadyBlakeney

Interesting word... truly intere*s*ting... now comes the big question for me...How do you pronounce it? It would be pretentious of me to assume that I am able to pronounce it in the German way... so I would be content to get an approximate imitation of what English speakers say. After all, Ich sprech Deutsch nacht (criminal grammar, but I hope the meaning remains  )

Thank you in advance.


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## te gato

LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> Interesting word... truly interenting... now comes the big question for me...How do you pronounce it? It would be pretentious of me to assume that I am able to pronounce it in the German way... so I would be content to get an approximate imitation of what English speakers say. After all, Ich sprech Deutsch nacht (criminal grammar, but I hope the meaning remains  )
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Hey LadyBlakeney;
Schadenfreude..is pronounced...Shad n froi de..
Shad--('a'..like in father)
N--(en)
Froi--(froy)
De--(with 'e' like in item..them)
and said ten times really..really fast. 

te gato


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## atlantaguy33

The musical "Avenue Q" has a song called "Schadenfreude" that explains the meaning pretty humourously (and a bit vulgarly).  "Right now you are down and out and feeling really crappy. And when I see how sad you are it sorta makes me happy. Sorry baby, human nature. Nothing I can do. It's Schadenfreude making me feel glad that I'm not you."

Then they give some examples of things that inspire a Schadenfreude--

"Straight A students getting B's. Ex's getting STDS. Waking doormen from their naps. Watching tourists reading maps. Football players getting tackled. CEO's getting shackled. Watching actors never reach the ending of their Oscar speech!"

It is definitely approaching the word from a more playful and less malicious tone that it is usually intended.


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## aprendista

I agree it is not common, but it is a word without an adequate native alternative.  However, I personally doubt that schadenfreude is always a bad thing. When the Berlin Wall fall, I was undeniably happy to watch the distressed faces of communist leaders, some of whom would later end up in prisons for crimes against humanity such as ordering border guards to shoot  unarmed refugees.


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## Whodunit

te gato said:
			
		

> Hey LadyBlakeney;
> Schadenfreude..is pronounced...Shad n froi de..
> Shad--('a'..like in father)
> N--(en)
> Froi--(froy)
> De--(with 'e' like in item..them)
> and said ten times really..really fast.
> 
> te gato



With the original American rolled "r"? Because we have the uvula r in German like the French have. And I think it would sound strange to me with the American "r". In exchange we have so many American words borrowed as German slang words, such as "great":

Das ist ja great.
That's really great.

If we pronounced it with the American r, it would sound ugly in a German sentence, but it's right. Most Germans would say it with a German r.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Be aware that "sadistical schadenfreuder" sounds VERY weird to those of us who read German.
> 
> Gaer



Oh, you can't guess how right you are. "Schadenfreuder" sounds that weird, so that I couldn't believe, Australians have such a word.


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## Whodunit

Robert Bennie said:
			
		

> G'day Whodunit
> 
> Thank you for that but I must say that it does exist in Australian.  We borrowed your word and then applied our rules to it therefore schadenfreude is a concept but a schadenfreuder is a person who employs schadenfreude.
> 
> What is the German term for a person who uses schadenfreude?
> 
> Danke
> 
> Robert



G'day again,

Oh, it will be even harder to learn your language: Australian-German English.    If we have a term for the person? Nope. Never heard, never seen. Only, as Agnes said, "Schadenfrohe Person".

What a funny country, Oz!


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## te gato

whodunit said:
			
		

> With the original American rolled "r"? Because we have the uvula r in German like the French have. And I think it would sound strange to me with the American "r". In exchange we have so many American words borrowed as German slang words, such as "great":
> 
> Das ist ja great.
> That's really great.
> 
> If we pronounced it with the American r, it would sound ugly in a German sentence, but it's right. Most Germans would say it with a German r.


Hey whodunit
(not me)..he he he
What is an American 'r'?? I'm Albertan  
Here we do not roll our r..at least I do not think we do. .I would say the 'r' like I say Rob..Roy..Round..Robot..Radish..Red...Rose..yadda,yadda..
Pppleeeaaasssseee..someone help me!! Do I roll my R ??

te gato


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## Whodunit

te gato said:
			
		

> Hey whodunit
> (not me)..he he he
> What is an American 'r'?? I'm Albertan
> Here we do not roll our r..at least I do not think we do. .I would say the 'r' like I say Rob..Roy..Round..Robot..Radish..Red...Rose..yadda,yadda..
> Pppleeeaaasssseee..someone help me!! Do I roll my R ??
> 
> te gato



OHH! I'm screwing up again! I didn't want to say "rolling r". The r produced in your throat with a rolled TONGUE! Like in are, bear, beer, rate etc.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> OHH! I'm screwing up again! I didn't want to say "rolling r". The r produced in your throat with a rolled TONGUE! Like in are, bear, beer, rate etc.


Who,

Don't forget that you also here the "rolled r" in German, not only in some regions, but also on stage sometimes. 

Gaer


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## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> Who,
> 
> Don't forget that you also here the "rolled r" in German, not only in some regions, but also on stage sometimes.
> 
> Gaer


Psssstttt..gaer;
_whispering in his ear..._what is a German 'R'...I am still lost trying to figure out what an American 'R' is.... 

te gato


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## gaer

te gato said:
			
		

> Psssstttt..gaer;
> _whispering in his ear..._what is a German 'R'...I am still lost trying to figure out what an American 'R' is....
> 
> te gato


If you have heard German's pronounce words like "Braun" (brown), you will get it immediately. Sometimes it almost sounds like "bwaun", but with the sound coming out of the throat at the same time.

It's a foreign sound. Something rather similar exists in French too. This is the wrong medium to explain it. 

Gaer


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## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> If you have heard German's pronounce words like "Braun" (brown), you will get it immediately. Sometimes it almost sounds like "bwaun", but with the sound coming out of the throat at the same time.
> 
> It's a foreign sound. Something rather similar exists in French too. This is the wrong medium to explain it.
> 
> Gaer


gaer;
grrrrrracias..
te gato


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## LadyBlakeney

te gato said:
			
		

> Hey LadyBlakeney;
> Schadenfreude..is pronounced...Shad n froi de..
> Shad--('a'..like in father)
> N--(en)
> Froi--(froy)
> De--(with 'e' like in item..them)
> and said ten times really..really fast.
> 
> te gato



Thank you very much, te gato!

Thank to this thread I found out I can produce four different sounds for "r":

Spanish strong "r" (roca, rabia)
Spanish soft "r" (caro, pero)
American "r" (Rob Roy) - Is there a British "r"?
German/French "r" (froid, frau)

How amusing! Now I only wish my brain would agree to use them appropriately, which it does not!


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> If you have heard German's pronounce words like "Braun" (brown), you will get it immediately. Sometimes it almost sounds like "bwaun", but with the sound coming out of the throat at the same time.
> 
> It's a foreign sound. Something rather similar exists in French too. This is the wrong medium to explain it.
> 
> Gaer



Never heard! The American sound is "buwaun", isn't it? And the German one is more like "bchaun" with a throat h like a spit (growl in a guttural fashion).


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## te gato

LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> Thank you very much, te gato!
> 
> Thank to this thread I found out I can produce four different sounds for "r":
> 
> Spanish strong "r" (roca, rabia)
> Spanish soft "r" (caro, pero)
> American "r" (Rob Roy) - Is there a British "r"?
> German/French "r" (froid, frau)
> 
> How amusing! Now I only wish my brain would agree to use them appropriately, which it does not!


Hey LadyBlakeney;
You are verrrrrrrrrrry Welcome..
te gato


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Never heard! The American sound is "buwaun", isn't it? And the German one is more like "bchaun" with a throat h like a spit (growl in a guttural fashion).


 
"buwaun" would be wrong for both Americans and people in the UK. It sounds like a speech impediment. 

Really, these sounds are impossible to describe. You have to hear them, I think.


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## Benjy

ta da!

german spanish french and both uk and us accents represented phonetically. type your word and you're away


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## piloya

Hello,
how do you pronounce the word? just as the Germans do?


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> ta da!
> 
> german spanish french and both uk and us accents represented phonetically. type your word and you're away


Now, if everyone wasn't asleep or I could find headphones. 

Gaer


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## piloya

Oops Gaer,
I didn't realise the question had already been posted. Yes, I'm still asleep.


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## gaer

piloya said:
			
		

> Oops Gaer,
> I didn't realise the question had already been posted. Yes, I'm still asleep.


Is it morning where you are? 

I'm not sure how this word is pronounced here, since I know the German pronunciation and have never heard it pronounced by someone who does not know German.

But in general German is pretty badly pronounced. Think of the new pope. (Should this be Pope, even without a name?) I have heard "Rat singer" over and over again, but it should be "rhaht----". 

Gaer


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## piloya

Hi Gaer, 
is is nearly 8 0'clock here, but today I started working at 7.00 am so my body is here but my mind is in still in bed 
The same happens with the Spanish pronunciation of foreign words.
Schadenfreude.... how did such a word get into the English language? Was this question already posted??? if so, ignore my asking.


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## gaer

piloya said:
			
		

> Hi Gaer,
> is is nearly 8 0'clock here, but today I started working at 7.00 am so my body is here but my mind is in still in bed
> The same happens with the Spanish pronunciation of foreign words.
> Schadenfreude.... how did such a word get into the English language? Was this question already posted??? if so, ignore my asking.


It's a long topic, so maybe someone answered your question, but I have no idea how this word became used in English. 

Gaer


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## LadyBlakeney

Benjy said:
			
		

> ta da!
> 
> german spanish french and both uk and us accents represented phonetically. type your word and you're away




A hundred thousand thanks, Benjy!!! Now I am on the good path...


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## Whodunit

Benjy said:
			
		

> ta da!
> 
> german spanish french and both uk and us accents represented phonetically. type your word and you're away



But please type in "schadenfreude" and here the US and UK pronunciation! If that is the right one, please shoot me!


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> But please type in "schadenfreude" and here the US and UK pronunciation! If that is the right one, please shoot me!


It's TERRIBLE.

Charles from the UK shu DENN frood. HORRIBLE

But if you listen to Reiner or Klara (German), it sounds perfect to me.

By the way, the French pronunciation is equally horrible (of this word), and much like the British.

I had never heard this word spoken by an English native before. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> It's TERRIBLE.
> 
> Charles from the UK shu DENN frood. HORRIBLE
> 
> But if you listen to Reiner or Klara (German), it sounds perfect to me.
> 
> By the way, the French pronunciation is equally horrible (of this word), and much like the British.
> 
> I had never heard this word spoken by an English native before.
> 
> Gaer



Of course, the French pronunciation of 'schadenfreude' is ALLOWED to sound terrible, because it's not their word, like 'dictionnaire' in German is "dickt - so - narre". But it's really horrible to hear the wrong English pronunciation, because they're supposed to know how to pronounce their words (they = persons from "AT&T").


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## Benjy

who... i don't get it? its a program, right? it takes words breaks them down into phonems then strings the words together using rules based on the language. ie the english voices use different rules from the german ones. what is the problem?


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## Whodunit

Benjy said:
			
		

> who... i don't get it? its a program, right? it takes words breaks them down into phonems then strings the words together using rules based on the language. ie the english voices use different rules from the german ones. what is the problem?



The problem is that we were talking about a German word IN the English language. I.e. there should be a proper pronuciation for this special word. Listen to the French-English word fiancé which is pronounced correctly, IMHO. The same goes for wiener schnitzel and langlauf, but not for edelweiss etc. It doesn't replace a native speaker, does it?


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> who... i don't get it? its a program, right? it takes words breaks them down into phonems then strings the words together using rules based on the language. ie the english voices use different rules from the german ones. what is the problem?


The problem is that English speakers are notorious for either ignorantly or deliberately mispronouncing things.

Imagine: day JA voo
sah voer fairy

If you don't know a language, you don't mind hearing it mangled. If you do, it's painful. 

Surely you know some French words that are so badly pronounced, it's painful!  

G


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## Benjy

gaer said:
			
		

> The problem is that English speakers are notorious for either ignorantly or deliberately mispronouncing things.
> 
> Imagine: day JA voo
> sah voer fairy
> 
> If you don't know a language, you don't mind hearing it mangled. If you do, it's painful.
> 
> Surely you know some French words that are so badly pronounced, it's painful!
> 
> G


i totally agree  all im aying is that att's text to speech demo doesn't know that it is speaking a german word. hence it mangles it.


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> i totally agree  all im aying is that att's text to speech demo doesn't know that it is speaking a german word. hence it mangles it.


Wait: are you telling me that these words are not spoken by human beings? 

What have I missed?

Gaer


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## Benjy

gaer said:
			
		

> Wait: are you telling me that these words are not spoken by human beings?
> 
> What have I missed?
> 
> Gaer



hehe. i guess it fooled you. they have taken real peoples speech and analysed it and made a program with it. try typing in something like lalallalala. this isnt a word. the program will try and guess what it *should* be. it does that with everything. hence my comment about phonems


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> hehe. i guess it fooled you. they have taken real peoples speech and analysed it and made a program with it. try typing in something like lalallalala. this isnt a word. the program will try and guess what it *should* be. it does that with everything. hence my comment about phonems


Oh! Then it's very impressive! I thought I was hearing someone in the England and in France supposedly pronounced the German word as we do.

Duh! And I don't even have blond hair. Well, it almost looks that way now, red but fading fast. 

Gaer


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## mgarizona

I can't remember where but I remember once coming across an author who had a very positive notion of what _schadenfreude_ is.

Imagine if, from a place of safety, you witness someone drowning, from a distance so there is no notion of you being a position to save that person. Even is genuinely empathetic and filled with anguish at the cruelty of fate, you are going to be experiencing a joy as well, a renewed joy in being alive, of being warm, safe, a joy in your own skin, your surroundings, existence.

One can experience _schadenfreude_--- joy in the face of sorrow--- without the slightest ill-will or maliciousness.

I always liked that.


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## gaer

mgarizona said:


> I can't remember where but I remember once coming across an author who had a very positive notion of what _schadenfreude_ is.
> 
> Imagine if, from a place of safety, you witness someone drowning, from a distance so there is no notion of you being a position to save that person. Even is genuinely empathetic and filled with anguish at the cruelty of fate, you are going to be experiencing a joy as well, a renewed joy in being alive, of being warm, safe, a joy in your own skin, your surroundings, existence.
> 
> One can experience _schadenfreude_--- joy in the face of sorrow--- without the slightest ill-will or maliciousness.
> 
> I always liked that.


But that's a total distortion of the word, which is German. It just doesn't mean that.


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## suzzzenn

mgarizona said:


> I can't remember where but I remember once coming across an author who had a very positive notion of what _schadenfreude_ is.
> 
> Imagine if, from a place of safety, you witness someone drowning, from a distance so there is no notion of you being a position to save that person. Even is genuinely empathetic and filled with anguish at the cruelty of fate, you are going to be experiencing a joy as well, a renewed joy in being alive, of being warm, safe, a joy in your own skin, your surroundings, existence.
> 
> One can experience _schadenfreude_--- joy in the face of sorrow--- without the slightest ill-will or maliciousness.
> 
> I always liked that.



I, like Gaer,  also think the author misunderstood the word.


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## mgarizona

By no means was it a misunderstanding, rather a reexamination, along the lines of 'Greed is good' only without the self-interest.

No one owns the word 'schadenfreude,' or any other word. People of intelligence have the right to reclaim them whenever it suits them.


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## Bonjules

gaer said:


> The "enjoyment of" or "delight at" "pain" (of others). It's actually sadistic in nature. I see nothing "oxymoronic" about the enjoyment of misfortune happening to other people. Just meanness. There is nothing unuusal or unepected happening when someone enjoys the defeat of another person, or when a group of people enjoys the defeat of another group. Schadenfreude just takes it to a more horrible level. Malicious glee is not an oxymoron. It's the description of evil.
> 
> I really hate this word, yet I think it is necessary because it describes something truly evil in human beings better than any other words I've ever seen.
> 
> Gaer


 
Not so fast, Gaer!
Schadenfreude covers a great variety of situations, not all of them reprehensible. E.g. imagine someone trying to do (or having done) something horrible to you and it backfires on them. 
Who wouldn't experience some 'serves them right' Schadenfreude - quite understandably? Not to feel that would maybe be saintly, but not common.


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## Bonjules

mgarizona said:


> I can't remember where but I remember once coming across an author who had a very positive notion of what _schadenfreude_ is.
> 
> Imagine if, from a place of safety, you witness someone drowning, from a distance so there is no notion of you being a position to save that person. Even is genuinely empathetic and filled with anguish at the cruelty of fate, you are going to be experiencing a joy as well, a renewed joy in being alive, of being warm, safe, a joy in your own skin, your surroundings, existence.
> 
> One can experience _schadenfreude_--- joy in the face of sorrow--- without the slightest ill-will or maliciousness.
> 
> I always liked that.


 
Here I agree with you, Gaer, this is NOT Schadenfreude.


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## gaer

Bonjules said:


> Not so fast, Gaer!
> Schadenfreude covers a great variety of situations, not all of them reprehensible. E.g. imagine someone trying to do (or having done) something horrible to you and it backfires on them.
> Who wouldn't experience some 'serves them right' Schadenfreude - quite understandably? Not to feel that would maybe be saintly, but not common.


That's a good point, and I have to admit that I "overstated my case".

I absolutely agree with you, although you are quoting something that I said in April of 2005 and it is a bit out of context. (There was a long discussion.)

When I said that I really "hate that word", or whatever I said, I was talking about the fact that it:

1) Describes something that is negative, even if deserved (it serves you right).

2) People who do not know a word of German grab hold of the word, as if it is somehow typical of German to masterfully describe only very negative things. 

Gaer


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## gaer

mgarizona said:


> By no means was it a misunderstanding, rather a reexamination, along the lines of 'Greed is good' only without the self-interest.
> 
> No one owns the word 'schadenfreude,' or any other word. People of intelligence have the right to reclaim them whenever it suits them.


So if I am a "person of intelligence", I can redefine any word, from any language, at any time, in any way?


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## winklepicker

gaer said:


> So if I am a "person of intelligence", I can redefine any word, from any language, at any time, in any way?


 
Humpty-Dumpty beat you to it, I'm afraid.


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## Earquake

Hello everyone.
Schandenfreude is not a commonly used word because it is a philosophical term (which explain why it remains a German word in all languages, it's because it was coined by a German philisopher).
It refers to the shameful but human trait that consists in taking pleasure in the misshaps of others (because, to view this positively, it comforts our own sense of security as someone pointed out).
Other German philosophicl terms include "Dasein", which also remains in German in all languages.
It's perfectly ok to use it as is in English or in French, but in an educated / philosophical context. In front of your pint in the pub you would use a more colloquial English expression I guess, unless you'd want to be suspiciuously stared at by the beanie wearing regulars.
cheers,
Fred


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## NAMELESS4421

Imangine this conversation between two co-workers, about another co-worker...
"Come on, he feels bad about that."
"No, not true.  The only thing he feels is schadenfreud, he is not a good person."

Is that the proper use for the word in a sentance?


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## Earquake

NAMELESS4421 said:


> Imangine this conversation between two co-workers, about another co-worker...
> "Come on, he feels bad about that."
> "No, not true.  The only thing he feels is schadenfreud, he is not a good person."
> 
> Is that the proper use for the word in a sentance?



I would rather imagine this situation.
You come to work one morning and learn that because of downsizing the company has to let go either you or your co-worker. Finally the personnel director choses to let go the other person.
You would express sympathy for the person you had been working with for so many years, but deep down, you would experience Schadenfreude.

Then in the evening  you tell the anecdote to a friend of yours.
If you are a professor at some university you could say "Mind you, I was so revolted by this injustice, but I must say I felt a bit of Schadenfreude. Only human..."

If you are a construction worker you'd say.
"Tell you what, them bosses are just bastards,  but I'm glad it wasn't me! (...) Schadenfreude? No, I don't drink lager, pint of bitter for me, cheers mate."

Fred


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## Violet Green

Schadenfreude, Schadenfreuder... I've never heard them in Ireland. Maybe these are the kinds of words that start getting used in the English of regions where people of German origin live


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## .   1

NAMELESS4421 said:


> Imangine this conversation between two co-workers, about another co-worker...
> "Come on, he feels bad about that."
> "No, not true. The only thing he feels is schadenfreud, he is not a good person."
> 
> Is that the proper use for the word in a sentance?


It seems clear to me.

.,,


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## NAMELESS4421

Fred,

Thanks for the response, it makes much more sense now.  

Regards,
Ross

Violet Green,

Don't feel bad about never hearing it in Ireland, I've never heard it in the U.S., never heard my German friends use it (although I probablly wouldn't have noticed it they did), and I've actually never heard it in Japan either.  Although, I do notice sometimes, after learning a new word, I all of a sudden will hear someone use it in a conversation, or on tv or something.  Interesting...

Regards,
Ross


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## --Monty---

Hi! Well I haven't read this post and I just wanted to say that this is what I _think _Schadenfreude is (having never used it I am dredging this up from deepest memory):

Taking pleasure in others' misfortune.

I'm now going to read the post and see if I was right.


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## .   1

NAMELESS4421 said:


> Don't feel bad about never hearing it in Ireland, I've never heard it in the U.S., never heard my German friends use it (although I probablly wouldn't have noticed it they did), and I've actually never heard it in Japan either.


It has possibly become an English word and is no longer in the German lexicon.
I became aware of the word via The Simpsons. A very popular U.S. cartoon series.

Robert


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## heidita

--Monty--- said:


> Hi! Well I haven't read this post and I just wanted to say that this is what I _think _Schadenfreude is (having never used it I am dredging this up from deepest memory):
> 
> Taking pleasure in others' misfortune.
> 
> I'm now going to read the post and see if I was right.


You certainly are, Monty, but what surprises me is that this word should be common in English. How very weird. Is there no equivalent possible?


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## heidita

. said:


> It has possibly become an English word and is no longer in the German lexicon.
> I became aware of the word via The Simpsons. A very popular U.S. cartoon series.
> 
> Robert


 
Oh, through the Simpsons, I never watch them. 

But no, you are not right, the word is a German frequently used word.


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## .   1

heidita said:


> But no, you are not right, the word is a German frequently used word.


I like being not right because that means that I have learned something.

Robert


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## heidita

. said:


> I like being not right because that means that I have learned something.
> 
> Robert


 
I have learnt something too, I had no idea that Schadenfreude was used in English.


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## .   1

heidita said:


> I have learnt something too, I had no idea that Schadenfreude was used in English.


Sadly the use and the need for the use of schadenfreude are increasing.  

Our lexicon reflects our soul. 

Robert


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## Bonjules

Earquake said:


> I would rather imagine this situation.
> You come to work one morning and learn that because of downsizing the company has to let go either you or your co-worker. Finally the personnel director choses to let go the other person.
> You would express sympathy for the person you had been working with for so many years, but deep down, you would experience Schadenfreude.
> 
> Fred


 
If this term is going to be used in other languages, we should make sure it is used correctly. 
So for the umpteenth time: To the above situation, Schadenfreude does not really apply.
That is, relief at having been spared in a bad situation does normally not engender Schadenfreude, even if it comes at the expense of another person. That is, unless one holds a particular grudge a gainst that same individual, something that would motivate you to get pleasure from their misfortune.
saludos


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## Pnevma

I try and use Schadenfreude whenever it fits. But that isn't too often, normally in response to a story.

I also learned about it from non-German-speaking (what a wretched word I just created) friends. I understood it when they said it, but have never heard it in my experience with German. Of course, my German is far from fluent.

And in-case this is still in the air:
I pronounce it in English as German (shah-den-froy-deh) With an "American", rather than German 'r' and sometimes I pronounce the last syllable more Americanized: "duh" rather than "deh"


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## Safransky

> It has possibly become an English word and is no longer in the German lexicon.



It's still a common word in german and it's often used by teachers who try to explain their pupils that there is nothing funny about a person slipping on a banana peel. 

What I'm curious about: Do you only have the noun "schadenfreude" as a loanword or do you also have the adjectiv (which would be "schadenfroh", as mentioned before)? And if you don't use the word "schadenfroh" in english, which word do you use instead?


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## .   1

Safransky said:


> What I'm curious about: Do you only have the noun "schadenfreude" as a loanword or do you also have the adjectiv (which would be "schadenfroh", as mentioned before)? And if you don't use the word "schadenfroh" in english, which word do you use instead?


I had not heard of scahdenfroh before this thread and I doubt that it would be understood in English.
I have always referred to a person who indulges in schadenfraude as a schadenfreuder.

Robert


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## heidita

. said:


> I had not heard of scahdenfroh before this thread and I doubt that it would be understood in English.
> I have always referred to a person who indulges in schadenfraude as a schadenfreuder.
> 
> Robert


 
This is funny, Robert, as *Schadenfreuder* does not exist in German.


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## difficult cuss

Hi Heidita,
you say...
"I have always referred to a person who indulges in schadenfraude as a schadenfreuder." 
I have never heard "schadenfreuder" why not a schadenfreudist?


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## Hutschi

Robert Bennie said:


> G'day Whodunit
> 
> What is the German term for a person who uses schadenfreude?
> 
> Danke
> 
> Robert


 
Hi, 
I do not know a special German term for such a person and I'm in doubt, whether it exists at all. 

You can only say that a person feels "Schadenfreude" or is "schadenfroh".

Examples:
Er ist schadenfroh.
Sie spürt Schadenfreude.
Er wurde von Schadenfreude ergriffen.

"Schadenfreuder" is no German word.

Considering the form, if you would invent it, it would mean: a "Schadenfreuder" is a person who makes another person to become schadenfroh (or a person who produces schadenfreude) in analogy to other words.

The best approximation would be "_*ein Schadenfroher*_" (male) or "_*eine Schadenfrohe*_" (female). "Ein Schadenfroher" does not use but feel "Schadenfreude", meaning, the person is "schadenfroh".

In German language, you cannot _use *_"Schadenfreuder". 

Best regards
Bernd


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## gepayo

Someone has probably already said this, but in German "Schadenfreude" (all nouns are capitalized in German) means "Shame-joy."  It means to be happy about someone else's misfortune.  I felt Schadenfreude, after years of being berated by Europeans about racism in the United States, when European countries started having racial problems.  I thought, "Oh, so you're not so superior after all."


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## difficult cuss

Gepayo,

The politics of racial tension/problems should be left out of this forum.


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## Pnevma

I think he was just giving an example that came to mind.

But, in response to gepayo: I think we've already discussed the meaning of schadenfreude (Or Schadenfreude, to be more correct.) At this point we are discussing the topic further.


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