# you and I / you and me



## oscarmadrid

hola a todos
quería saber si alguien podría aclararme cual de las dos frases (you and I or you and me) es la correcta cuando funcionan como sujeto. he visto las dos, pero no estoy nada seguro.

thank you in advance. saludos


----------



## chica11

Sabes que?? Yo soy hablante nativa, nacida en California y honestamente no se cual es la respuesta correcta. Probablemente use la forma incorrecta. Gracias por hacer la pregunta. La verdad es que a veces tengo verguenza en hacer preguntas sobre mi propio idioma, porque pienso que debo conocerlo mejor!!! 

De todos modos, creo que se depende en el contexto y oracion: Between you and me suena mejor que Between you and I pero no significa nada!!

Saludos y no tildes por flojera!!


----------



## Laura Madden

Hola Oscar.  Por ejemplo:
You and I will be married next June (I es sujecto).
You and I never got on. (Otra vez sujeto).

Ahora,
Who was the wine for? (It is for) you and me.
Who did they pick for the team? (They picked) you and me. 
Who will be married next June? You and I (will be married).


Entonces, se dice 'I' solamente cuando se usa como sujeto. Cuando se habla de la primera persona como objeto, siempre se usa 'me'.  Así es en la gramática inglesa.  Sin embargo, hay muchos nativos que usan mal los dos.  Espero que esto es de ayuda!


----------



## mayita

Hola!! 
Pregunta interesante!
Laura Madden solo una pequeña correccion

Sin embargo, hay muchos nativos que usan mal los dos. Espero que esto *sea* de ayuda!

Saludos!


----------



## oscarmadrid

hi everybody!!!!

thanks 4 your help!!!! vuestras respuestas me han sido de gran ayuda. Chica11, don't feel embarrased!!!! todos tenemos dudas sobre nuestra lengua nativa!!!

Saludos, y gracias otra vez


----------



## asm

En algun lugar lei que este es uno de los errores mas comunes de los hablantes nativos.

Los pronombres parecen muy sencillos, pero no siempre lo son. Leia hace unos dias que el concepto de pronombre como quien sustituye al nombre solo puede ser aplicado a la tercera persona. El argumento que mencionaban es que uno nunca se "sustituye a si mismo" ni se sustituye a quien escucha.

Me di cuenta de lo dificiles que son hasta que comence a dar clases de espanol. Hay alumnos que les cuesta mucho la dualidad de los pronombres, mientras que platicas con una persona siempre cambias la primera persona por segunda, pero cuando hablas acerca  de alguien nunca cambias de tercera persona. Si ya llegaste hasta aqui y no te has mareado por esta extrana explicacion es quizas porque tienes claro el concepto del pronombre.

Regresando a la pregunta original, el I y You se usan como pronombres personales, el me y you como objetos (complemento). Lo que confunde es que en YOU es el mismo, pero en primera persona hay dos diferentes.



			
				chica11 said:
			
		

> Sabes que?? Yo soy hablante nativa, nacida en California y honestamente no se cual es la respuesta correcta. Probablemente use la forma incorrecta. Gracias por hacer la pregunta. La verdad es que a veces tengo verguenza en hacer preguntas sobre mi propio idioma, porque pienso que debo conocerlo mejor!!!
> 
> De todos modos, creo que se depende en el contexto y oracion: Between you and me suena mejor que Between you and I pero no significa nada!!
> 
> Saludos y no tildes por flojera!!


----------



## BBolivar

Quisiera me indicaran cuando usar :
you and me
or
you and I


gracias


----------



## Dudu678

_You and I _cuando es sujeto.
_You and me_ cuando es objeto.

_You and I are going to be good friend.
This is for you and me._


----------



## BBolivar

Dudu678 said:


> _You and I _cuando es sujeto.
> _You and me_ cuando es objeto.
> 
> _You and I are going to be good friend._
> _This is for you and me._


gracias


----------



## 0scar

desgraciadamente no siempre es tan fácil...

por ejemplo, cuando alguien golpea la puerta

_Who is it?
It is me  _ 

( y me acá es sujeto)


----------



## Dudu678

No es cierto, el sujeto es *it*. 

En español sí es yo, por eso se dice yo y no mí o me.


----------



## unspecified

0scar said:


> desgraciadamente no siempre es tan fácil...
> 
> por ejemplo, cuando alguien golpea la puerta
> 
> _Who is it?_
> _It is me. *It is I.*_
> 
> ( y me acá es sujeto)


 
Aunque no sea muy común decir "It is I," es correcto mientras que "it is me" es incorrecto.

Con "linking verbs" (to be, to become, etc.), siempre se usa los pronombres nominales (I, you, he, she, we, they).


----------



## 0scar

...sin embargo entiendo que lo correcto es decir  _It is I_ pero nadie lo usa porque suena mal  o pretencioso...


----------



## 0scar

0scar said:


> ...sin embargo entiendo que lo correcto es decir  _It is I_ pero nadie lo usa porque suena mal  o pretencioso...



contestaba a Dudu678

no hay diferencia entre  _I me  _ y  _Yo me_ y por eso siempre me desconcierta cuando oigo en cine o TV que  todos contestan  _It is me  Soy me_


----------



## Forero

Cuando _you and me_ es objeto, está bien.  Cuando _you and I_ es sujeto, generalmente está bien.  Pero cuando no es ni objeto ni sujeto, hay duda.

"It is me" suena natural en situaciones cotidianas, pero lo cambiamos a "It is I" en situaciones formales.  El _I_ o el _me_ en tal frase no es objeto, pero tampoco es sujeto.  El sujeto de _is_ es _it_ con el que acuerda.

En posiciones en que el pronombre no es objeto pero el verbo y el pronombre no tienen que acordarse, hay duda.  Hay conflicto histórico entre el modelo francés, que evita el _je_/_I_, y el modelo latín, que favoriza el _ego_/_I_.

Los gramáticos ingleses originales tuvieron motivos para enseñar un modelo del inglés que facilitara la enseñanza del latín, que todos los que quisieran llamarse educados tuvieron que saber escribir.  Y esto fue cuando acababa de ser el francés el idioma preferido por el gobierno inglés.  Sobre esto también eran problemas culturales entre los anglicanos y los católicos romanos en inglaterra.

Generalmente es mejor, hoy día, usar el modelo latín para escribir, pero no es incorrecto usar el modelo medio francés para hablar.  Lo que suena mal en todos casos es el uso del _I_ en donde pertenece el _me_ en ambos modelos, suponiblemente porque suena como si la persona que lo usa así pareciera conocer sólo el modelo francés y tratara de convertirse a un modelo latín ignorante.


----------



## GiggLiden

Dudu678 said:


> _You and I _cuando es sujeto.
> _You and me_ cuando es objeto.
> 
> _You and I are going to be good friend.
> This is for you and me._




_You and I (plural subject) are going to be good friend(s)._


----------



## unspecified

Thanks for the explanation, *Forero*!  That's really interesting how the tendency for using "me" over "I" follows from French vs. Latin models.  I had no idea, but it makes good sense.

I also found this link, which may be of some help, for more information:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxitsmev.html


----------



## friedfysh

Although its correct, most British people tend not to use "you and I" as it sounds pretentious "me and you" (incorrect) is far more common, Americans are better than us at this one...


----------



## Chris K

The idea that "it is I" (at the door) is "correct," even though the vast majority of speakers (at least in the US) say "it is me" or "it's me," seems to me to be putting the cart in front of the horse. It would be a disservice to people learning English to teach them to speak according to abstract grammatical principles that in fact almost no one follows. Logic may dictate "it is I," but languages do not always adhere to logic. Without wading too deep into the perennial arguments between descriptive linguists and prescriptive grammarians, this is a case where the language that is actually spoken has clearly gone its own way.


----------



## Dudu678

GiggLiden said:


> _You and I (plural subject) are going to be good friend(s)._



That was a typo, but thanks.


----------



## GiggLiden

friedfysh said:


> Although its correct, most British people tend not to use "you and I" as it sounds pretentious "me and you" (incorrect) is far more common, Americans are better than us at this one...



Interesting. If we were to analyze the above grammatically, we'd bump into several items that need slight correction:

it's correct
; after pretentious  and instead of , after common. Otherwise we have a run-on sentence.
Americans are better than we (are), not us are.

Tricky business, this grammar.

(grin)


----------



## mhp

a man no mightier than thyself or me — Shakespeare
  why should a man be better than me because he's richer than me — William Faulkner

  Oxford dictionary classifies this usage of _than_ as a conjunction and hence both sentences by Shakespeare and Faulkner would be wrong. Merriam-Webster, on the other hand, acknowledges that _than_ in a comparison can function as a preposition: “You have the same choice Shakespeare had: you can use _than_ either as a conjunction or as a preposition.”

  Further discussion should probably be directed at

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=25090


----------



## gypsykatt1311

my question is WHY the IT  refering to ME  or  I    I was trying to discuss 
this in another forum, but it is another topic...why don`t answer.. WHO IS IT???? there is no way no change the way you guys talk or write  is the way we learn our tongues...
WHY::: WHO IS IT???


----------



## LaLoquita

Who is it?? It's me!
Bad grammar; everyday English.


----------



## Forero

gypsykatt1311 said:


> my question is WHY the IT  refering to ME  or  I    I was trying to discuss
> this in another forum, but it is another topic...why don`t answer.. WHO IS IT???? there is no way no change the way you guys talk or write  is the way we learn our tongues...
> WHY::: WHO IS IT???



Happy weekend, everybody!

I have seen terms like "bad grammar" and "incorrect" used to describe the use of "me" where the Latin model would have "I".

I think we can all agree that there is nothing "wrong" with the question "Who is it?".  It is usable at all levels of speaking and writing and is neither pretentious nor ignorant sounding.

Let me try to explain why this question "works" in English.

In this question, the subject of _is_ is _it_, which is placed after the conjugated verb because that is the normal order for an English direct question, which is different from the normal subject-then-verb order of a declarative sentence.

Here _it_ means _this_ or _that_ without regard to proximity to the speaker.  However, _it_ is not a demonstrative pronoun but a "personal" pronoun.

A question in English can be thought of as a derivative of some declarative sentence.  Thus "Who is it?" derives from something like "It is somebody; tell me who it is."  The use of _is_ vs. _are_ in a question depends on the usage in a declarative sentence.

A declarative sentence in English will always have a verb and an expressed subject, but the little word "it" is used as a subject even to the point of acting sometimes as a place-holder when there is no "logical" subject or when the logical subject is felt to need an "introduction" before being "invited" to subject position:  "It was good that the forks were already on the table because it was time for the cake."

In English, a predicate complement does not have to agree with the subject in any way - it can be different in gender and number.  In any case, the verb agrees with the subject, which usually comes first in a declarative statement:

"It is Jack."
"It is Jill."
"It is a teacup".  
"It is the two boys I am most concerned about."
"The two boys are what I am most concerned about."
"Marilyn and Veronica were 'Charley the horse' in the school play."
"In the school play, 'Charley the horse' was really Marilyn and Veronica."

Just as we use _is_, not _are_ in "It is somebody; tell me who it is.", we also use _is_ in its derivative, "Who is it?".

Having explained _it_ and _is_, I come to _who_.  The normal place for an interrogative pronoun in English is first, regardless of the role it plays in the sentence, though it may follow a preposition of which it is the object.

In formal writing and speaking, we make the predicate complement agree with the subject in case.   That is, we use the nominative, in this case _who_.

Informally, on the contrary, we sometimes dispense with case and may call people "him" and "her" and "me" except as the subject of a verb.  In other words, personal pronouns other than the subject of a verb take the same form as for the objective case, but I can argue that "disjunctive" describes this usage better than "objective".  But the interrogative pronoun "who"/"whom" appears as "who" in "disjunctive" positions.  In fact "whom" is almost no longer a word in some people's speech, being reserved as object of a preposition when the preposition needs to precede it: "Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls".  That's poetic, by the way.  In common speech, you might hear "Don't ask who the bell is ringing for", but you would probably never hear "Don't ask for who the bell is ringing."

So, formally or informally, we would not say "Whom is it?" but only "Who is it?"

But informally we would say "It's me" where formally only "It is I" is currently acceptable.  I can see other reasons, besides influence from Anglo-French, for this phenomenon, but they are essentially the same reasons French uses the disjunctive.

As far as what is "logical", the "olde Englisc" sentence "(H)it am ic" is more logical than modern English "It is I".  On the other hand, "It is I" and "It is me" each have their own logic of a different sort.


----------



## BBolivar

Forero said:


> Happy weekend, everybody!
> 
> I have seen terms like "bad grammar" and "incorrect" used to describe the use of "me" where the Latin model would have "I".
> 
> I think we can all agree that there is nothing "wrong" with the question "Who is it?". It is usable at all levels of speaking and writing and is neither pretentious nor ignorant sounding.
> 
> Let me try to explain why this question "works" in English.
> 
> In this question, the subject of _is_ is _it_, which is placed after the conjugated verb because that is the normal order for an English direct question, which is different from the normal subject-then-verb order of a declarative sentence.
> 
> Here _it_ means _this_ or _that_ without regard to proximity to the speaker. However, _it_ is not a demonstrative pronoun but a "personal" pronoun.
> 
> A question in English can be thought of as a derivative of some declarative sentence. Thus "Who is it?" derives from something like "It is somebody; tell me who it is." The use of _is_ vs. _are_ in a question depends on the usage in a declarative sentence.
> 
> A declarative sentence in English will always have a verb and an expressed subject, but the little word "it" is used as a subject even to the point of acting sometimes as a place-holder when there is no "logical" subject or when the logical subject is felt to need an "introduction" before being "invited" to subject position: "It was good that the forks were already on the table because it was time for the cake."
> 
> In English, a predicate complement does not have to agree with the subject in any way - it can be different in gender and number. In any case, the verb agrees with the subject, which usually comes first in a declarative statement:
> 
> "It is Jack."
> "It is Jill."
> "It is a teacup".
> "It is the two boys I am most concerned about."
> "The two boys are what I am most concerned about."
> "Marilyn and Veronica were 'Charley the horse' in the school play."
> "In the school play, 'Charley the horse' was really Marilyn and Veronica."
> 
> Just as we use _is_, not _are_ in "It is somebody; tell me who it is.", we also use _is_ in its derivative, "Who is it?".
> 
> Having explained _it_ and _is_, I come to _who_. The normal place for an interrogative pronoun in English is first, regardless of the role it plays in the sentence, though it may follow a preposition of which it is the object.
> 
> In formal writing and speaking, we make the predicate complement agree with the subject in case. That is, we use the nominative, in this case _who_.
> 
> Informally, on the contrary, we sometimes dispense with case and may call people "him" and "her" and "me" except as the subject of a verb. In other words, personal pronouns other than the subject of a verb take the same form as for the objective case, but I can argue that "disjunctive" describes this usage better than "objective". But the interrogative pronoun "who"/"whom" appears as "who" in "disjunctive" positions. In fact "whom" is almost no longer a word in some people's speech, being reserved as object of a preposition when the preposition needs to precede it: "Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls". That's poetic, by the way. In common speech, you might hear "Don't ask who the bell is ringing for", but you would probably never hear "Don't ask for who the bell is ringing."
> 
> So, formally or informally, we would not say "Whom is it?" but only "Who is it?"
> 
> But informally we would say "It's me" where formally only "It is I" is currently acceptable. I can see other reasons, besides influence from Anglo-French, for this phenomenon, but they are essentially the same reasons French uses the disjunctive.
> 
> As far as what is "logical", the "olde Englisc" sentence "(H)it am ic" is more logical than modern English "It is I". On the other hand, "It is I" and "It is me" each have their own logic of a different sort.


----------



## BBolivar

gracias a todos, nunca imagine tanta polemica,,, ahora quisiera alguien me haga un resumen pero en español.... tantas respuestas me confundieron
gracias


----------



## juanito23

Hola, Oscar:

Creo que ya ha sido expresado,  pero la regla básicamente es si el pronombre en cuestión es sujeto u objeto.

"You and I must purchase the gift tonight."   (*You and I* son los sujetos).
"The gift will be purchased for you and me".  ( En este caso,  *'you and me'*
                                                               son los objetos de la acción).

Eso determina cual pronombre se usa...caso nominativo u objetivo.

Bendición


----------

