# Urdu: گمنا gumnaa



## marrish

Yesterday I heard someone say and thought to share it with you: 
_
معمولاً میری چیزیں نہیں گمتیں۔ 
ma3muul-an merii chiizeN nahiiN gumtiiN_. 

I welcome, as ever, you thoughts as to this usage, which I wasn't familiar with before.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Yesterday I heard someone say and thought to share it with you:
> _
> معمولاً میری چیزیں نہیں گمتیں۔
> ma3muul-an merii chiizeN nahiiN gumtiiN_.
> 
> I welcome, as ever, you thoughts as to this usage, which I wasn't familiar with before.



Here is my penny's worth.

1) A "verbal fusion" has taken place in the speaker's buccal cavity resulting in "gum hotiiN" >>"gumtiiN" (Very unlikely)

2) The speaker is using the verb "gumnaa" (for "gum honaa") in the same way people might have used "qubuulnaa" for "qubuul karnaa". (Unlikely)

3) In Punjabi, one could hear both "aam tor te meriyaaN chiizaaN na'iiN gumdiyaaN" as well as "gum hondiyaaN". (Likely to very likely)

I would be interested to know how this speaker expresses the "gum karnaa" concept.


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## greatbear

I think there does exist "gum jaanaa", even if "gum ho jaanaa" is more common, so this verbal usage "gumnaa" is in fact not wrong (and it is also more poetic) to me than the mundane "gum honaa", where "gum" more acts like a state rather than something done (involuntarily).


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## Qureshpor

marrish SaaHib, in the haunting and nostalgic words of the "magician"..

lahroN ke laboN par haiN kho'e hu'e afsaane
gulzaar ummiidoN ke kab ho ga'e viiraane
teraa patah paa'uuN kahaaN suune haiN saare Thikaane
jaane kahaaN gum ho ga'e, jaa ke vuh agle zamaane


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> I think there does exist "gum jaanaa", even if "gum ho jaanaa" is more common, so this verbal usage "gumnaa" is in fact not wrong (and it is also more poetic) to me than the mundane "gum honaa", where "gum" more acts like a state rather than something done (involuntarily).


 Interestingly, I've heard: _woh gum ga'e!_ But that was from people who had a tendency to speak a certain kind of Urdu!


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Yesterday I heard someone say and thought to share it with you:
> _
> معمولاً میری چیزیں نہیں گمتیں۔
> ma3muul-an merii chiizeN nahiiN gumtiiN_.
> 
> I welcome, as ever, you thoughts as to this usage, which I wasn't familiar with before.


 marrish SaaHib, گُمْنا gumnaa can be confusing! It may look as if it falls in the same category words like as _badalnaa_ etc., i.e. non-Indic stem + Indic _naa _to give the infinitive. It is even listed in this usually (but not always) reliable online Urdu lexicon, here. However, I didn’t find it in some other Urdu lexicons - still looking. However, there seems to exist a similar word with the ‘u’ to ‘a’ vowel change, i.e. _gamnaa, _also with one meaning of _getting lost_:

گمنا गमना _gamnā_ [_gam˚_ = Prk. गम्म(इ)=S. गम्यते, pass. of rt. गम्], v.n. To go by, to pass, elapse; to be passed or spent (as time);—to be lost; to go astray (cf. _gum_);—to procrastinate. 

_gamnaa_ is listed [URL="http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=62154"]here [/URL]too but in our speech it is hardly used with either meanings. 

Most of us do opt for _gum ho jaanaa_ (passive), instead of _gumnaa_, and _gum karnaa_ (active). 

The other _gumnaa_ listed here (= to turn about / rotate) is just a variation of _ghumnaa_ - from ‘_ghuumnaa_’:

گهمنا घुमना _ghumnā_, v.n. (colloq. & Dakh.)=_ghūmnā_, q.v.

Dropping the ‘_h_’ will make _ghumnaa_ to _gumnaa_. This is of course not the meaning in your sentence but mentioned here just for completeness.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Here is my penny's worth.
> 
> 1) A "verbal fusion" has taken place in the speaker's buccal cavity resulting in "gum hotiiN" >>"gumtiiN" (Very unlikely)
> 
> 2) The speaker is using the verb "gumnaa" (for "gum honaa") in the same way people might have used "qubuulnaa" for "qubuul karnaa". (Unlikely)
> 
> 3) In Punjabi, one could hear both "aam tor te meriyaaN chiizaaN na'iiN gumdiyaaN" as well as "gum hondiyaaN". (Likely to very likely)
> 
> I would be interested to know how this speaker expresses the "gum karnaa" concept.



QP SaaHib, your presentation of the possible scenarios is much appreciated and I can follow you on all accounts. Although that speaker knows Punjabi (as a ?-th language) he is a native speaker of Urdu so there is no possiblility his speech is affected by Punjabi in any way. I think it is the case 2). I found this usage very attractive, that's why my thread.

The speaker deems incriminating oneself unidiomatic, hence the intransitive usage, and blaming others directy (_gum kar diyaa_) impolite. If in the applicable situation, he says he'd say _chiizeN gumaa diiN_ or _gum kar diiN_, both being OK, but he doesn't know when he'd tend to say which one.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, گُمْنا gumnaa can be confusing! It may look as if it falls in the same category words like as _badalnaa_ etc., i.e. non-Indic stem + Indic _naa _to give the infinitive. It is even listed in this usually (but not always) reliable online Urdu lexicon, here. However, I didn’t find it in some other Urdu lexicons - still looking. However, there seems to exist a similar word with the ‘u’ to ‘a’ vowel change, i.e. _gamnaa, _also with one meaning of _getting lost_:
> 
> گمنا गमना _gamnā_ [_gam˚_ = Prk. गम्म(इ)=S. गम्यते, pass. of rt. गम्], v.n. To go by, to pass, elapse; to be passed or spent (as time);—to be lost; to go astray (cf. _gum_);—to procrastinate.
> 
> _gamnaa_ is listed here too but in our speech it is hardly used with either meanings.
> 
> Most of us do opt for _gum ho jaanaa_ (passive), instead of _gumnaa_, and _gum karnaa_ (active).
> 
> The other _gumnaa_ listed here (= to turn about / rotate) is just a variation of _ghumnaa_ - from ‘_ghuumnaa_’:
> 
> گهمنا घुमना _ghumnā_, v.n. (colloq. & Dakh.)=_ghūmnā_, q.v.
> 
> Dropping the ‘_h_’ will make _ghumnaa_ to _gumnaa_. This is of course not the meaning in your sentence but mentioned here just for completeness.


Thank you for presenting all possible and impossible! I also don't use ''gamnaa''. I think in the case of _gumnaa_ it is the Indicization (any other fitting word here?) of the Persian elements.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> QP SaaHib, your presentation of the possible scenarios is much appreciated and I can follow you on all accounts. Although that speaker knows Punjabi (as a ?-th language) he is a native speaker of Urdu so there is no possiblility his speech is affected by Punjabi in any way. I think it is the case 2). I found this usage very attractive, that's why my thread.



I know the focus of your query is Urdu based but I have heard Punjabi speakers use "gamNRaa" in their Punjabi as in "merii kitaab gam ga'ii e." (I've lost my book). I would say "khRaach ga'ii e" although, I think, most Punjabis would say "gavaach ga'ii e".


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## marrish

Interesting to hear that this verb is also used in Punjabi (as well as Urdu (Hindi)- according to the findings of Faylasoof SaaHib. I remember now myself that there are people who speak like this! And I'd go for _ gavaach ga'ii e_.


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## Abu Talha

How about the sentence _merii chiiz gumii hu'ii hai_. Is this incorrect too? Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

Abu Talha said:


> How about the sentence _merii chiiz gumii hu'ii hai_. Is this incorrect too? Thanks.



I don't believe this sentence would pass the quality control test, for Urdu!


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## marrish

Abu Talha said:


> How about the sentence _merii chiiz gumii hu'ii hai_. Is this incorrect too? Thanks.


Joining QP SaaHib here, not heard of.


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## Alfaaz

QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> Abu Talha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the sentence _merii chiiz gumii hu'ii hai_. Is this incorrect too? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe this sentence would pass the quality control test, for Urdu!
Click to expand...




			
				marrish said:
			
		

> Joining QP SaaHib here, not heard of.


So how would one express AT SaaHib's thought in simple Urdu, apart from the "higher" register _"meri cheez gum shudah hai"_ ?
_
meri kitaab gum hai_- my book is lost 
_meri kitaab gum hui hai_- my book has gone lost ?
_meri kitaab gum ho ga'ii hai_-my book has become lost
_meri kitaab gumi hui hai_- my book _has been and still is_ lost- past to present ?

Something about it sounds odd and wrong to the ears though.....


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> So how would one express AT SaaHib's thought in simple Urdu, apart from the "higher" register _"meri cheez gum shudah hai"_ ?
> _
> meri kitaab gum hai_- my book is lost
> _meri kitaab gum hui hai_- my book has gone lost ?
> _meri kitaab gum ho ga'ii hai_-my book has become lost
> _meri kitaab gumi hui hai_- my book _has been and still is_ lost- past to present ?
> 
> Something about it sounds odd and wrong to the ears though.....


I wouldn't say about a thing ''gum-shudah''.

As to the sentences you suggest, I agree that something  sounds odd and wrong. I'd like to know under which circumstances one would go for which sentence. The last one sounds definitely wrong.

Also, _merii kitaab gum ho chukii hai_.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> So how would one express AT SaaHib's thought in simple Urdu, apart from the "higher" register _"meri cheez gum shudah hai"_ ?
> _
> meri kitaab gum hai_- my book is lost
> _meri kitaab gum hui hai_- my book has gone lost ?
> _meri kitaab gum ho ga'ii hai_-my book has become lost
> _meri kitaab gumi hui hai_- my book _has been and still is_ lost- past to present ?
> 
> Something about it sounds odd and wrong to the ears though.....



If we assume that Urdu has the verb "gumnaa", then Abu Talha SaaHib's sentence is fine. 

merii chiiz gum hu'ii hai ..would be the preferred form BUT

merii chiiz gum hu'ii hu'ii hai..would provide the exact sense of his sentence! However this is not acceptable in Standard Urdu although "hu'aa hu'aa" form is often heard, Please see...http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=862662&highlight=garm+kiyaa+hu'aa+paanii  (Posts 13-14)


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## marrish

Regarding the last suggestion, I do use it in day-to-day language.


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