# на днях; на этих днях



## eni8ma

Normally events that last less than a week are expressed as в Acc.
Mentioning a certain week is usually на Prep (на ... неделе)
These expressions are на Prep, even though they are less than a week.

на днях - на P(plural) - the other day
на этих днях - на этих P(plural) - one of these days

Is this an older form that has continued on, so does not fit the current "rule"?


----------



## morzh

I rarely heard "на этих днях". It is usually "на днях".
Also "Днями".


----------



## eni8ma

на этих днях comes from wiktionary.com and scores 319,000 results on Google, whereas на днях only has 20,900,000 results.

However, the question is "_why_ is it expressed as на Prep instead of в Acc?".


----------



## eni8ma

Since you mentioned дня́ми, what does it mean?

I know that днём means "by day, during the day". Does дня́ми mean "in those days" or "during those days"?


----------



## morzh

Днями - means same as "на днях". More or less.

Here's thesaurus for you.

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dic_synonims/106240/остались


----------



## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> на этих днях comes from wiktionary.com and scores 319,000 results on Google, whereas на днях only has 20,900,000 results


Only? Is not 21 mln a bit more than 300 thousand?



> However, the question is "_why_ is it expressed as на Prep instead of в Acc?".


It can be Acc as well: в эти дни. But the sense is a bit different - these days, though it can be used similarly:
На этих днях (в эти дни) я был очень занят.
However на днях means only 'recently' or 'in the nearest future'.

My main perplexity though is why do you think there is any rule< relating to the duration of the period or something else? I don't think there is any. Of course you can elaborate some mnemonic rule to memorize it, but this is not a rule meaniong some objective regularity. Too many factors influenced too long.


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> на этих днях comes from wiktionary.com and scores 319,000 results on Google, whereas на днях only has 20,900,000 results.
> 
> However, the question is "_why_ is it expressed as на Prep instead of в Acc?".



You forgot the smiley face after "only" (2 orders of magnitude difference in usage).


As for "Acc". - 1) Can you give me an example of what you mean, and 2) "На днях" is not "what last less than a week". "На днях" is point of time, not duration. "Occurs" may be the word of choice. But then, again -  we here can only answer what you've asked, not what you think you've asked.


----------



## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> Since you mentioned дня́ми, what does it mean?
> 
> I know that днём means "by day, during the day". Does дня́ми mean "in those days" or "during those days"?



It means 'in the nearest future':
Мы ждем его днями (soon). 
So it is only partially the same as "на днях", which means 'recently' or 'soon'.
But днями is a bit obsolete.


----------



## eni8ma

eni8ma said:


> на этих днях comes from wiktionary.com and scores 319,000 results on Google, whereas на днях only has 20,900,000 results.



Oops  It's just after 6 am here - perhaps I should open the other eye as well


----------



## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> However на днях means only 'recently' or 'in the nearest future'.


Future? in English, "the other day" is like saying "one day recently". I  know that the reference I found the phrase was not giving exhaustive  definitions, but do you use "на днях" for future sense as well?

"на этих днях" was given the meaning "one of these days", which is a future orientation.

In English, "the other day" is recent past; "one of these days" is future, but vague about how long it will be (could even imply "never" )


----------



## morzh

На днях - means both future and past. (near)

Когда ты приезжаешь? - На днях (when are you coming? - any day now). (Future.)
На днях видел я Петрова; он прошел и даже не поздоровался - I saw Petrov recently; he walked past me without even saying "hello". (Past.)


----------



## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> My main perplexity though is why do you think there is any rule relating to the duration of the period or something else?


I did put "rule" in quotes, because I know that Russians may just "know" what to say, and not have a rule.

The "rule" came from an English speaking site, explaining when to use various constructions.

As per that web page, there are three kinds of time periods:
_*event*_: when did it happen? - perfective verb
_*duration*_: for how long did it happen? - imperfective, progressive
*frequency*: how often did it happen? - imperfective, iterative

(for "did", read "did/does/will")

I have renamed "punctuality" to "event", because  "punctuality" did not  feel quite right to me.  An "event" (when did it happen?) can last from "a moment in time" through  to a whole year (or perhaps more).

He explained that events can be grouped as follows:
в A - _*event*_: less than a week e.g. в канун Рождества; a minute
на P - *event* - a certain week - this week; the week before Christmas
в P - *event* - longer than a week e.g. в августе

There also seems to be:
на A - *event*: special Events e.g. на Рождество, etc.
However, that one I created for myself, based on (very limited) observed usage.

на днях seems to be better suited to answering the question "when did it happen?", so I was wondering why it has the form на P, which I have so far only seen in reference to "a (particular) week".


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Когда ты приезжаешь? - На днях (when are you coming? - any day now). (Future.)


Thanks - I can see what you mean now


----------



## eni8ma

BTW, an example of an "event" that lasts for more than a week:


morzh said:


> *В этом году* у меня родился ребенок (This year I had a baby born).


When did it happen? this year.
It is not duration (for how long did it happen?) because the baby did not take that long to be born (nor did the gestation, for the pedants among you )
And it does fit the observed pattern of:
в P - *event* - longer than a week e.g. в августе,  в этом году


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> BTW, an example of an "event" that lasts for more than a week:
> 
> *В этом году* у меня родился ребенок (This year I had a baby born).



OK, notice "lasts for more than a week" (atually it took 10 minutes... but....)



eni8ma said:


> It is not duration (for how long did it happen?) because the baby did not take that long to be born (nor did the gestation, for the pedants among you )



Well....so is it duration or is it not?


PS> I am not being feisty here or try to pick on you - I am honestly trying to understand, as then I can generalize and try to use rules and exceptions. So far I am at a loss.


----------



## eni8ma

Based on the original web page I have sorted the categories according to how they answer these questions.

_*event*_: when did it happen? - perfective verb
_*duration*_: for how long did it happen? - imperfective, progressive
*frequency*: how often did it happen? - imperfective, iterative



morzh said:


> *В этом году* у меня родился ребенок (This year I had a baby born).


To understand which construct to use, I need to ask which question that sentence answers.

when did it happen? answer - в этом году
for how long did it happen? - в этом году !? does not make sense
how often did it happen? - в этом году ?! how many babies did you have?!?

The time period is a whole year (which is much longer than a week), but it fits my definition of an "event" because it best answers the question "when did it happen?"

[Of course, the birth of a baby is indeed an event ]


----------



## eni8ma

An example of duration vs event. (I hope the Russian is correct )

Я работаю на этой неделе - when is it happening? - this week - event
Я работаю целую неделю - for how long is it happening? whole week - duration

For duration, there are different rules, which I have not mentioned in this thread.


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> Based on the original web page I have sorted the categories according to how they answer these questions.
> 
> _*event*_: when did it happen? - perfective verb
> _*duration*_: for how long did it happen? - imperfective, progressive
> *frequency*: how often did it happen? - imperfective, iterative



Yes.



eni8ma said:


> To understand which construct to use, I need to ask which question that sentence answers.
> 
> when did it happen? answer - в этом году OK
> for how long did it happen? - в этом году !? does not make sense OK
> how often did it happen? - в этом году ?! how many babies did you have?!? - What are you, the Census Bureau?
> 
> The time period is a whole year (which is much longer than a week), but it fits my definition of an "event" because it best answers the question "when did it happen?"
> 
> PLUS, the verb used is perfective, so it is an "event".
> 
> [Of course, the birth of a baby is indeed an event ]



OK.


So, "в этом году" I think is actually "locative" case.


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> An example of duration vs event. (I hope the Russian is correct )
> 
> Я работаю на этой неделе - when is it happening? - this week - event
> Я работаю целую неделю - for how long is it happening? whole week - duration
> 
> For duration, there are different rules, which I have not mentioned in this thread.



Я работаю на этой неделе - It is not an event; it is a process of a certain duration. He is working this week.


----------



## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> It can be Acc as well: в эти дни. But the sense is a bit different - these days, though it can be used similarly:
> На этих днях (в эти дни) я был очень занят.
> However на днях means only 'recently' or 'in the nearest future'.


You seem to be saying that 'в эти дни' has a different shade of meaning from на этих днях.

на этих днях - one of these days
в эти дни - these days

I just looked up "в эти дни" and "в дни" on google - clearly much more common than на днях. Perhaps на днях is an archaic or literary form, or just not very commonly used (as Google attests).

I hadn't thought of putting it into в A form and searching for that.

I can breathe easier now - the "rules" still apply (mostly )


----------



## morzh

No, "в эти дни" means "these days" or even "during this time".
"На этих днях" means "soon after / shortly before".

В эти дни мы все должны поддерживать друг друга - during this time we all should support each other.
На этих днях схоронили мы деда - not long ago we buried grampa.


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> No, "в эти дни" means "these days" or even "during this time".
> "На этих днях" means "soon after / shortly before".


Well, I'm glad I did ask about these phrases, because they obviously have a much wider application than the simple phrase offered on wiktionary.

Большое спасибо


----------



## morzh

Большое пожалуйста


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Я работаю на этой неделе - It is not an event; it is a process of a certain duration. He is working this week.



I realise that it is not an event in the normal sense - I mean that it is an "event" in the sense of my definition that an event answers the question "when did it happen?".  I simply chose "event" as a simple word to encapsulate "when did it happen?" - if you have a word that you think better suits, I'm fine with that. 

Я работаю на этой неделе
- *when* is it happening? (*when* is he working?)
- event (see the list of definitions)
- this week -> на P -> на этой неделе

Я работаю целую неделю
- for how long is it happening? - whole week 
- duration
- duration of main verb -> Acc -> целую неделю

You Russians don't have to go through this process - you just know which case and preposition to use.

We foreigners have to say 
- is it when/how long/how often?
- if *when*, then:
 - did it happen in a minute or a day? -> в A
 - did it happen in a certain week? -> на P
 - did it happen in a certain month or year?  -> в P
 - did it happen on Special Occasion (Xmas, Easter, etc)? -> на A

_etc_.

(Please note the etc - this is not an exhaustive list - although we may feel exhausted going through the list to see which prep and case to use )


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> I realise that it is not an event in the normal sense - I mean that it is an "event" in the sense of my definition that an event answers the question "when did it happen?".  I simply chose "event" as a simple word to encapsulate "when did it happen?" - if you have a word that you think better suits, I'm fine with that.
> 
> Я работаю на этой неделе
> - *when* is it happening? (*when* is he working?)
> - event (see the list of definitions)
> - this week -> на P -> на этой неделе
> 
> Я работаю целую неделю
> - for how long is it happening? - whole week
> - duration
> - duration of main verb -> Acc -> целую неделю
> 
> You Russians don't have to go through this process - you just know which case and preposition to use.
> 
> We foreigners have to say
> - is it when/how long/how often?
> - if *when*, then:
> - did it happen in a minute or a day? -> в A
> - did it happen in a certain week? -> на P
> - did it happen in a certain month or year?  -> в P
> - did it happen on Special Occasion (Xmas, Easter, etc)? -> на A
> 
> _etc_.
> 
> (Please note the etc - this is not an exhaustive list - although we may feel exhausted going through the list to see which prep and case to use )




I'll throw one more monkey wrench in your clockwork: All these are the same.
This week - 
Я работаю на этой неделе.
Я работаю эту неделю.
(Colloq.) Я работаю в эту неделю.

This night.
Этой ночью я работаю.
В эту ночь я работаю.


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> I'll throw one more monkey wrench in your clockwork:





morzh said:


> All these are the same.
> This week -
> Я работаю на этой неделе.
> Я работаю эту неделю.
> (Colloq.) Я работаю в эту неделю.


Certainly, when someone is a full-time worker, those two probably are the same in a general sense.

However, if asked "Когда вы работаете?", wouldn't the correct answer be "Я работаю на этой неделе"? and if asked "На сколько вы работаете", then the answer would be "Я работаю эту неделю".

Also, consider a part-time worker (let's call him Иван), who normally works, let's say, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

If Иван said "Я работаю на этой неделе", does he mean that he will be working this week, but only for his usual days? Is there another meaning that sentence might have, for Иван?

If Иван said "Я работаю эту неделю", does he mean that he is working all week, rather than his usual three days?

Or could Иван say both of those sentences, and mean the same thing?


morzh said:


> This night.
> Этой ночью я работаю.
> В эту ночь я работаю.


Good - that means that we have a few choices, and won't be wrong either way


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> However, if asked "Когда вы работаете?", wouldn't the correct answer be "Я работаю на этой неделе"? and if asked "На сколько вы работаете", then the answer would be "Я работаю эту неделю".



"На сколько Вы работаете" - incorrect and I don't even know what you meant by it (if you doubled it in English I would've been able to give you the correct Russian way).



eni8ma said:


> Also, consider a part-time worker (let's call him Иван), who normally works, let's say, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
> 
> If Иван said "Я работаю на этой неделе", does he mean that he will be working this week, but only for his usual days? Is there another meaning that sentence might have, for Иван?
> 
> If Иван said "Я работаю эту неделю", does he mean that he is working all week, rather than his usual three days?
> 
> Or could Иван say both of those sentences, and mean the same thing?
> 
> Good - that means that we have a few choices, and won't be wrong either way



You know, you got me with this one.
I am not sure. 
For me they are practically (I will emphasize "practically") the same, as in conversation people, especially those of'em who are Ivans and are part time workers, will not go for subtle differences, and will say it the way they are accustomed to saying it.

If we go for subtleties, then "*Я эту неделю работаю*" is closer to "*I work this week*". That is "It is my working week" is the general meaning. This may mean both part time / full time hours, but this means "habitual" hours. This is the week I work, whatever the hours are. As compared to the week I do not work, and hence I am free to do whatever. It implies some sort of schedule. Like for instance "this week I work, and the next I don't - this is the schedule".

"*Я на этой неделе работаю*" - is closer to "*I work during this week*". Which may mean both part time /full time, but it does not strongly epmphasize "I work mu usual hours". It just states the fact of Ivan being involved with his job during this week, nothing more, nothing less. Say, I picked up some side job, and I will be making an extra buck this week.

Now, in a conversation this is so subtle, most people (me included - call me Ivan the Worker) will disregard it.

I've heard both from doctors, engineers and building contractors alike. Both in English and Russian, so I think the difference, though still in existence, is really minor, enough so to be disregarded during a casual conversation.


----------



## eni8ma

eni8ma said:


> However, if asked "Когда вы работаете?", wouldn't the correct answer be "Я работаю на этой неделе"? and if asked "На сколько вы работаете", then the answer would be "Я работаю эту неделю".


Oh dear, I did try to find the right way to say that 

Ok, with English:
- Когда вы работаете? when are you working?
- Я работаю на этой неделе - I'm working this week

- На сколько вы работаете? my feeble attempt at "For how long are you working?"
- Я работаю эту неделю - I am working for a week

Is it possible to say:
- Когда вы работаете? 
- Я работаю эту неделю

- For how long are you working?
- Я работаю на этой неделе


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> - На сколько вы работаете? my feeble attempt at "For how long are you working?"
> - Я работаю эту неделю - I am working for a week



Ah-ha! If I had to guess, I'd probably interpret it is "for how much money do you work?" (how much do you make?)



eni8ma said:


> Is it possible to say:
> - Когда вы работаете?
> - Я работаю эту неделю


Yes.



eni8ma said:


> - For how long are you working?
> - Я работаю на этой неделе



No. The answer would be (if you ask "for how long") "Я работаю всю неделю" (I work the whole week) or "Я работаю 3 дня / Я работаю понедельник, вторник и среду".

the question respectively is:"Сколько времени (сколько дней) Вы работаете / будете работать" or, even closer: "Как долго Вы работаете / будете работать?"


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> No. The answer would be (if you ask "for how long") "Я работаю всю неделю" (I work the whole week) or "Я работаю 3 дня / Я работаю понедельник, вторник и среду".


So Я работаю на этой неделе is an answer to "when?" but not an answer to  "for how long?", so it is an "event"  and thus "на ... неделе".


morzh said:


> the question respectively is:"Сколько времени (сколько дней) Вы работаете / будете работать" or, even closer: "Как долго Вы работаете / будете работать?"


::sigh:: I had Как долго Вы работаете as my first option, but it sounded so much like putting English in Russian word for word, that I went searching for a "right" way to say it.

I got my translation from this page, but apparently, they are incorrect. Have not seen that website before, and I guess I won't return to it either.


----------



## morzh

It is possible "как....." (как много, как долго) originated in the past as calques from some European language; doubt it was English, but then Europeans calqued off of each other left and right, so it does not matter, but it is indeed sounds like a calque.

However it is normal expression by today's standard; sound a little formal, but then it is also used mostly in "Вы"-type conversation, like :"Как долго мне ждать?", "Как долго Вы будете над этим работать?".
Asking a friend about his working hours, you probably say "сколько тебе над этим работать"? 

There are no strict rules about this one.


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> However it is normal expression by today's standard; sound a little formal, but then it is also used mostly in "Вы"-type conversation, like :"Как долго мне ждать?", "Как долго Вы будете над этим работать?".
> Asking a friend about his working hours, you probably say "сколько тебе над этим работать"?



"над этим работать" definitely looks non-intuitive.
"over this work" = "doing this work"?

Как долго Вы будете над этим работать?
How long will you be over this work?
For how long will you be working?


----------



## eni8ma

BTW I found an example for днями:
Мы занимались целыми днями
We studied for days on end


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> BTW I found an example for днями:
> Мы занимались целыми днями
> We studied for days on end



This is different "днями".

The one we discussed earlier was "recently/near future" expression.

This one...well, you already translated it.


----------



## eni8ma

The original expressions were:
на днях
на этих днях

There was some discussion on page 1 about днями having a similar meaning.
Anyhow, it is all sorted now 

Спасибо 		
Спокойной ночи


----------

