# to cook / boil / brew



## ThomasK

I happened to notice at the cooking thread that Finnish uses a verb to refer to boiling, maybe not to cooking. I suppose the relation is self-evident: we often need boiling water to cook. So: do you use the same verb (or the same root) to refer to both?

Dutch does: _*water kookt/ Ik kook* in de keuken... _


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## Mori.cze

*Czech: yes, we do*

"*Vařit*": *To cook,* to prepare food, independent of whether the food is boiled/fried/whatever (could be used even for a cold/raw meal as long as the preparation is complex enough)

"*Vařit se*": *To boil *(reflexive version of the same verb, literally meaning sort of "to boil/cook itself") Note: simple "vařit" without the pronoun "se" could be used as well, but it is less idiomatic.


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## Yendred

In French, we have these three verbs:
*cuisiner *: to prepare food, independently of whether the food is boiled/fried/whatever
*cuire *: to cook on a gas or electric hob, to bake (_cuire au four_), to steam (_cuire à la vapeur)_
*bouillir *: to boil. This verb is not transitive so we do not say _bouillir de l'eau _ but _faire bouillir de l'eau_ (to boil water).

and of course all sorts of variants... _mijoter, frire, braiser, blanchir, griller, gratiner, pocher, sauter, saisir, rissoler, rôtir, faire dorer, faire frémir, _...


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## ThomasK

So the same indeed. Interesting, had not thought of that before, whereas I could/ should have realized that…


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## apmoy70

Greek:

To cook: *«Μαγειρεύω»* [ma.ʝiˈɾe.vɔ] < Classical v. *«μαγειρεύω» măgei̯reú̯ō* --> _to cut up, butcher, cook_, a denominative from the Classical noun *«μάγειρος» mắgei̯rŏs* (masc.), *«μαγείραινᾱ» măgeí̯rai̯nā* (fem.), Koine fem. *«μαγείρισσᾱ» măgeí̯rissā* --> _slaughterer, butcher, cook_ (of unknown etymology, could be Pre-Greek, could be related to *«μάχαιρᾱ» mắkʰai̯rā* --> _large knife, butchery knife_, could be a borrowing).

To boil: *«Βράζω»* [ˈvra.zɔ] < Classical v. *«βράσσω» brắssō*, Attic *«βράττω» brắttō* --> _to shake violently, agitate, boil (up), winnow_ (of unknown etymology, could be of PIE origin, related to Ltv. murdēt, _to break_, Lith. murdyti (idem)).

They're not the same.


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## ThomasK

I'd guess that different cultures refer to various aspects of cooking when referring to the general idea/ concept: we might be thinking of hot water for cooking, Greek speakers might have associated it with slaughtering of animals… Do you think so too?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> So: do you use the same verb (or the same root) to refer to both?


No, not in Russian. "To cook" as a general term is actually "to prepare" (готовить - gotóvit'), while for boiling there are two additional verbs:
- варить - varít' - to cook by boiling;
- кипятить - kipyatít' - to boil something in a context unrelated to cooking. The latter is also related to the intransitive verb кипеть - kipét' - to boil.


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## ThomasK

Could you enlighten us on the roots of those words, especially of /gotovit/?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> Could you enlighten us on the roots of those words, especially of /gotovit/?


Well, there is no much to tell, they're almost elementary. "Gotóv" is a short adjective for "ready", so gotóvit' is "to get sth ready", "to prepare sth" (food, in this case). -kip- and -var- are both elementary (chiefly verbal) roots for these two kinds of boiling. The both are proto-Slavic at least.


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## ThomasK

Not much to tell, but I could not guess. Prepare reminds me of the same root: parare, make ready, I believe. But two roots for boiling? But then varit has about the same meaning as /gotovit/, doesn't it?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> But then varit has about the same meaning as /gotovit/, doesn't it?


Varít' means one particular way of cooking. Speaking about soups or porridges they are synonymous, of course, but you cannot use /varít'/ speaking about steaks, pancakes, shish-kebab, pies etc.

By the way, there is one more (albeit marginal and informal, hence sometimes derogatory) verb for cooking in general - стряпать (stryápat'). It is quite elementary from the modern Russian point of view as well.  The  etymology is unclear; apparently related dialectal verbs have a surprising range of meanings from "to be slow" to "to feed the cattle".

Speaking about cooking as boiling, there is one informal verb - кашеварить (kashevárit'), used mostly in ironical contexts. It is derived from кашевар (kashevár), an obsolete word for a military cook, which literally means "porridge-boiler", "one who boils porridge" (каша - kásha - is "porridge").


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## ThomasK

Here we have another link with boiling, I suppose. Reminds me of Finnish (and my soup hypothesis). Could the /varit/ be older than the others?

I could imagine a similar verb like _kashevarit_, containing cooking too (*bekokstoven*). That might be good for a separate thread... Thanks. We can use it in the sense of setting up a scheme, plotting… _*Cooking up*_ in English...


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## Circunflejo

*Spanish*:

To cook=cocinar
To boil=cocer or hervir.


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> Could the /varit/ be older than the others?


Two roots for boiling (boiling proper vs. boiling as cooking) seem old enough. Surprisingly enough, even the "cooking" meaning of /gotóvit'/ is quite old; at least that meaning, together with "preparing", exists in Old Russian already, and the both meanings are met in pretty remote Slavic languages as well. Regarding this word some scholars suppose a loan from Gothic (gataujan ~ "to make") into proto-Slavic.
Generally there is a strong tendency to use "specialized" words for cooking where applicable. For example, I have hard times imagining somebody actually using "to cook" when speaking about pies (pirogi) or pancakes (bliny, oladyi); they are nearly always "baked" and "fried" respectively.


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## ThomasK

In the meantime I discover that _parare_ does refer to ready (though the basic meaning in IE is "procure") and I have come to realize that we have a _ready_ verb in Dutch as well: ready >> _*bereiden*_ (prepare), whereas "ready" as such only has to do with riding, nothing else.

We can _bereiden_ lots of things but it sounds a little old-fashioned (we now prefer _*klaar-maken*_, make ready). Yet, indeed we would not bereiden/ klaarmaken pancakes, we bake them (bakken), like you do.

Interesting, "perspective-ful" additions. Thanks. I wonder this ready track leads to new things…


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## AndrasBP

In Hungarian, we always have different verb forms for transitive and intransitive meanings.
"To cook" can be "fő" (intr.) or "főz" (tr.), depending on which meaning is intended:

A leves fő. = The soup is cooking (the cook is not doing anything).
Péter leves*t* főz. = Peter is cooking a soup. (lit. Péter soup+Acc. cooks (transitive))

"To boil an egg" would still be "főz":
Péter tojás*t* főz. (tojás (egg) + Accusative marker -t)

However, "to boil water" is different:

A víz forr. = The water is boiling. (forr = boil, intransitive)
Péter vize*t *forral. = Péter is boiling water. (forral = boil, transitive)


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## Sardokan1.0

In Romance languages there are usually two verbs to translate "to cook"

*Latin :* _*1.* Coquere *2. *Coquinare_
*Sardinian :* _*1.* Coghere *2.* Coghinare_
*Italian :* _*1.* Cuocere *2. *Cucinare
_
While the verb "to boil"

*Latin :* _Bullire_
*Sardinian :* _Buddire_
*Italian :* _Bollire_


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## Awwal12

AndrasBP said:


> In Hungarian, we always have different verb forms for transitive and intransitive meanings.


Well, it is not a rarity in languages of the world, and as one could have seen already, Slavic languages largely exhibit the same behaviour (although there are many verbs which can work both as transitive and intransitive ones).
Cf.:
/kipét'/ (intr.) - /kipyatít'/ (trans.)
/varítsa/ (intr.) - /varít'/ (trans.; the affix -sya, among other fuctions, turns generic transitive verbs into intransitive/medium ones)
/gotóvitsa/ (intr.) - /gotóvit'/ (trans.)

But then comes a temptation to include aspectual nuances as well, and since perfectives tend to incorporate additional semantic elements, all that would lead this thread to becoming buried under piles of Russian verbs, with its original purpose being completely lost in process.


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## ThomasK

Indeed, the causatives are not that important here. The main question is whether boiling and cooking have the same root (and whether they are therefore considered related)… There is no general rule, but it seems to me that so far they are often unrelated, or seldom related…


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> Well, it is not a rarity in languages of the world


Indeed it isn't, the intransitive meaning is often expressed with reflexive verbs in IE languages. I just wanted to contrast Hungarian with Dutch and English.


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## bibax

In Czech:

1) to boil =
*vříti* (root *vr-/vř-* < **vьr-*), intrans. verb:
Voda vře. = Water boils/is boiling.
noun vření, var = boiling;
bod varu = boiling point, Russ. то́чка кипе́ния (kypění → kypěti);
vyvřelá (magmatická) hornina = igneous (magmatic) rock;

*kypěti* (perf. vzkypěti, vykypěti), intrans. verb = to boil, to seethe (swiftly/turbulently/tumultuously):
Polévka vzkypěla. = Soup has sodden [up] (suddenly and turbulently).
Mléko vykypělo (z hrnce). = Milk has sodden [out] (of the pot).
_(for me it is difficult to translate it into idiomatic English )
_
2) to cook =
*vařiti* (root *var-/vař-*, a grade of _*vьr-_) is a factitive verb to *vříti*, meaning _"to make something to boil"_, thus transitive,
and it is used also in the meaning _to cook sth_:
Vařím mléko, polévku. = I am cooking/boiling milk, soup. (i.e. I am making milk/soup to be boiling).
Vařím pivo. = I am brewing/boiling beer.
Vařím oběd. = I am cooking dinner.
Vařím čaj, kávu. = I am making tea, coffee.

reflexive *vařiti se* expresses a passive meaning (*se* is a reflexive pronoun/object in accusative):
Voda, mléko, polévka, oběd se vaří.  = Water, milk, soup, dinner is being boiled/cooked. (lit. water, milk, soup, dinner is boiling/cooking itself)

So, the factitive *vařiti *means both to boil sth and to cook sth.


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## ThomasK

If I am not mistaken, there are quite some parallels between Slavic languages (like Russian). But this broad meaning os /var-/ seems new: even brewing is included in cooking then? That is something that I had not expected, but of course they both have to do with boiling water for example…

As for boil1/boil2: I guess you are hinting at a pejorative boiling or something the like. It reminds me of _zieden_ in Dutch, both biling and raging, which I had not thought of whereas it is common from a historic perspective: a typical dish in G(h)ent is *waterzooi* (watersod, containing chicken and vegetables), and in the Netherlands there is a lot of talk about _*zooi, zooitje, zootje*_, all referring to (boiling leading to) a mess. Kypeti reeminds me of that, but I do not know if the result is a (metaphorical) mess...


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## AndrasBP

ThomasK said:


> But this broad meaning os /var-/ seems new: even brewing is included in cooking then? That is something that I had not expected,


Yes, brewery is "pivovar" or a similar term in several Slavic languages. Hungarian also uses the verb "főz" (cook) for beer.


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## ThomasK

Is /pivo/ also a word referring to cooking???


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## AndrasBP

No, "pivo" is derived from the verb piti, pitj or similar forms, meaning "to drink".


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## ThomasK

But then how strong is the link between brewing and /varim piwo/? Brewery is only a beer-makery, isn't it? No specific reference to cooking or boiling, yes?


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## AndrasBP

Well, it's a "beer-cookery", if you like.


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## ThomasK

But is that a linguistic link (root word), or just a natural semantic association? Linguistically it is a drinkery or a beerery, isn't it? But that might imply production, i.e., brewing…


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## AndrasBP

I'm afraid I'm starting to lose your track of thought.



ThomasK said:


> But is that a linguistic link (root word), or just a natural semantic association?


What do you mean?



ThomasK said:


> Linguistically it is a drinkery


 No, linguistically and actually a "pivovar" is a place where beer is produced.


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## ThomasK

I know and I am sorry, it is quite hard indeed. If you start from the words, does your word for brewing or brewery (etymologically) refer to cooking? I mean: we have two separate words, _brouwen_ and _koken_, and most people would never say that they cook beer (most people forget that boiling is part of brewing). For example: i brew beer = varim pivo? Or is there an altenative? --- If not clear, don't worry, not that important. It is just intriguing.


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## Awwal12

For one thing, Russian (as much as Czech, it seems) has no special root for brewing. Traditionally beer is "cooked (by boiling)".


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## AndrasBP

ThomasK said:


> ...It is just intriguing.


It's OK. I also find these differences intriguing, but they're quite common, actually. When we translate a word into another language, we might first think that the two are exact equivalents, but that is almost never the case; we find that one of the words has a broader or narrower usage, one is used in certain compounds where the other isn't; one has five, the other has six different meanings but only three of them are the same, etc.

In Hungarian, we seem to use the verb "főz" (cook) when there's hot water involved in the process. We "cook" soup, beer, tea and coffee, just like in Czech (#21).

We also use the same verb *süt */ʃyt/ for baking and frying, there's no distinction.
And what you may find even more surprising is that we use this verb to describe what the _sun _does, not only when it's scorching, "baking" hot, but it's simply the default verb for the sun :
Süt a nap. = The sun is shining.
napsütés = sunshine

(but that might be a new thread for you)


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## bibax

ThomasK said:


> But then how strong is the link between brewing and /varim piwo/? Brewery is only a beer-makery, isn't it? No specific reference to cooking or boiling, yes?


According to the Oxford Dictionary (on-line):

*to brew:*
1. to make (beer) by soaking, boiling, and fermentation;
2. to make (tea or coffee) by mixing it with hot water; _‘I've just brewed some coffee’_
(and for completeness: 3. intrans. to begin to develop _‘a storm was brewing’_)

In Czech we have only one standard verb *vařiti* for boiling/cooking/brewing, etymologically connected to the intransitive *vříti* (to boil/seethe; sieden in German):

*Vařím vodu.* ... _water_
*Vařím čaj, kávu.* ... _tea, coffee_
*Vařím oběd.* ... _dinner_
*Vařím pivo.* ... _beer_

_to cook_ is also *kuchtit* (root _kuch-_ from German), which is expressive (colloquial), to cook and kuchtit are equivalent:

*Co to kuchtíš?* = What are you cooking? (in a humorous way)


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for those contributions. To me they are intriguing in the sense that I only know start to realize that certain concepts are not that clear-cut as they might seem to be to a speakezr of one language. I have learnt at least six languages (if I include Latin and Greek at school), but still, it is only now that it dawns on me that words are not straightforward concepts, not even in this case those which lots of people speaking Dutch or West Germanic languages (or …) might consider basic (…) concepts. I am interested in how translations force one to reconsider viewpoints, invite to (re-)discover natural links that we do not think of (brewing and cooking for example), int at possible links, etc. Those distinctions and relations  forcing me to think differently and are in that sense stimulating.

That  is one way of how etymology can work. But let's not go into that here. If needed we could start a new thread at the Café/…


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## AndrasBP

ThomasK said:


> Thanks a lot for those contributions. To me they are intriguing in the sense that I only know start to realize that certain concepts are not that clear-cut as they might seem to be to a speakezr of one language.






bibax said:


> *to brew:*
> 1. to make (beer) by soaking, boiling, and fermentation;
> 2. to make (tea or coffee) by mixing it with hot water; _‘I've just brewed some coffee’_


Because of the beer-related meaning, I've always thought that "brewing" semantically included fermentation. For this reason, "brewing coffee/tea" sounds really odd to me.


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## apmoy70

Awwal12 said:


> For one thing, Russian (as much as Czech, it seems) has no special root for brewing. Traditionally beer is "cooked (by boiling)".


Greek uses either the generic (A) *«ζύμωση»* [ˈzi.mɔ.si] (fem.) or the specific (B) *«ζυθοποιία»* [zi.θɔ.piˈi.a] (fem.) for it:

(A) MoGr fem. *«ζύμωση»* [ˈzi.mɔ.si] --> lit. _fermentation_ also _brewing_ < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«ζύμωσις» zúmōsis* (nom. sing.), *«ζυμώσεως» zŭmṓsĕōs* (gen. sing.) --> _fermentation_ < Classical fem. *«ζύμη» zúmē* --> _leaven, beer-yeast_ (PIE *iuHs- _to mix, bring in movement_ cf Skt. यूष (yūṣa), _soup_, Lat. iūs (broth), Proto-Germanic *justaz, _cheese_ > D./N./Swe. ost, _cheese_).

(B) MoGr fem. *«ζυθοποιία»* [zi.θɔ.piˈi.a] --> _brewing_, lit. _beer-making_ a MoGr construction (1871), a compound:
MoGr masc. *«ζύθος»* [ˈzi.θɔs] --> _beer, ale_ < Classical masc. or neut. noun *«ζῦθος» zûtʰŏs* (idem), either an unknown ancient Egyptian word that described an alcoholic drink from barley, which the Greeks borrowed very early, or from the Sogdian _zute_ + MoGr v. *«ποιώ»* [piˈɔ] --> _to do, make_ < Classical v. *«ποιέω/ποιῶ» poi̯éō* (uncontracted)/*poi̯ô* (contracted) --> _to do, make, produce_ (also of _art, poetry_), _act_ (PIE *kʷi-eu̯-/*kʷei̯-u- _to gather, deem_ cf Skt. चिनोति (cinoti), _to select, choose_, Av. cinuuaiti, _to select_).


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## ThomasK

AndrasBP said:


> Because of the beer-related meaning, I've always thought that "brewing" semantically included fermentation. For this reason, "brewing coffee/tea" sounds really odd to me.


I have once read that a lot of _br-_ verbs in West (and North) German verbs have to do with fire: brew, _branden_ (NL/GER), _braden_ (fry in Dutch), etc. [maybe fr- in English: fry, fire, …]…


AndrasBP said:


> We also use the same verb *süt */ʃyt/ for baking and frying, there's no distinction.
> And what you may find even more surprising is that we use this verb to describe what the _sun _does, not only when it's scorching, "baking" hot, but it's simply the default verb for the sun :
> Süt a nap. = The sun is shining.
> napsütés = Sunshine (but that might be a new thread for you)


 Well, we can _bakken_ in the sun, too, which is like frying or being fried...


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## anahiseri

Circunflejo said:


> *Spanish*:
> 
> To cook=cocinar
> To boil=cocer or hervir.


Well, I think this has to be expanded a bit.
*hervir* is mostly used as an intransitive verb: el agua hierve = the water is boiling. But you can also use it transitively: hervir unos huevos = boil some eggs.
*cocer * is only transitive: cocer unos huevos.
*cocinar, *as in English *cook*, includes other ways of preparing food by means of heat, not only boil.


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