# Punks



## rachel6927

I am doing a research project on punk culture and fashion, does anyone consider themselves a punk or ex-punk and mind expressing some current views on the subculture? or know anywhere I can find some good information?

Thank you!

Rachel


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## Swettenham

I'm ex-punk.  The best place to go is a punk show!  It has to be small and cheap— something in a hole in the ground.  No Green Day.

For me, punk rock was about community and finding new ways to express oneself...  I remember $5 shows, $5 CDs, everything handmade, people constantly traveling the country or the world.  There are thousands of different punk scenes, each one unique.  Each city has dozens.  I can only speak for the one I was a part of.  I was in a few bands and we played all over the DC area.  I'm not in the scene any more, because I can't keep up with the fashion and everything.  It's really more of a fashion show than many want to admit.  So I don't know what's going on with it, because onec you're out of the loop it becomes invisible, hidden in the woodwork.  It's there, though, probably thriving under our toes, making revolution and noise.


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## BasedowLives

yeah i agree it's more fashion than anything now.

i really love some of the music that modern punk/hardcore has right now though.   (amanda woodward, hot cross, at the drive in (RIP))

still though, girl pants and tight shirts are what dominate the style right now.


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## astronauta

Ex-punk as well.

About 14-15 yrs. ago I was a punk/goth mix. I listened to the cure (among others) all day and wore black and purple. Went to so many concerts, they were so cheap the invitations were just flyers done in black and white photocopied paper. I almost killed my hair with th eover processing. I stopped being a punk when I became a raver.


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## rob.returns

For me, Sid Vicious(sex pistols) is the most popular and visible icon of the punk movement, crazy, i-dont-care attitude, and a killer(literally).

PUnk is more of fashion with noise music. Im not a punkie but I do admire some groups.

One question, Do you consider "the Clash" a punk group?


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## MetalMarianne

I just know about the poser-punks in town.... they claim to be 'against the system' but wear fashion clothes mommy bought and have mobile phones..... So, where is the 'against' part of it?

(sorry for being so hard, but again, I just see poser around here. never met a real punk)


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## rob.returns

Is being a punk more anti-political or anti-social? The line is blurry when it comes to this, i believe.





			
				MetalMarianne said:
			
		

> I just know about the poser-punks in town.... they claim to be 'against the system' but wear fashion clothes mommy bought and have mobile phones..... So, where is the 'against' part of it?
> 
> (sorry for being so hard, but again, I just see poser around here. never met a real punk)


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## fenixpollo

rob.returns said:
			
		

> One question, Do you consider "the Clash" a punk group?


Yes, the Clash was a punk group.

And, by the way, punk is dead.


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## damianvila

I've never been a punk (how can I call myself a punk if I lived with my parents?, and also, was too young to be part of it), but I believe I understand the punk movement.
The original punk movement, wich started with punk music, was full with rebellious individual anti-society attitude. If I'm not wrong, people in the UK moved to squattered houses, wore broken/painted clothes, pins, razor blades, safety pins and cut and dyed their own hair to show their radical opinions. They where trying to be "out of the system" in an aggressive way (in clear contrast to the hippies, the heavy metals, etc.). It was a "spit in your face" attitude.
In Argentina specifically it was a little more dangerous, since it was a rebellion against a militar non-democratic government that could cost you your life (there's a famous punk band called "Violadores" wich had a song against the militar government, I still don't know how they managed not to get killed by that).
Soon the spirit was translated to every part of the movement, specially fanzines and graphic material (posters, flyers, t-shirts, etc).
As with all this kind of phenomenons, it loose momentum and finally degraded into a more mainstream version of what it originally was.
But I belive some of the spirit remained in rock music, specially some bands.
Grunge and skaters (two of the movements I was really part of) are direct child of the punk movement.
And you can see influences of the punk fashion everywhere.
I recommend you the book "Fucked Up + Photocopied: Instant Art of the Punk Rock Movement" by Bryan Ray Turcotte and Christopher T. Miller.
It will give you a glimpse of the movement through the band's posters and flyers.
There's a site called Lip-Service (with a dash) that's got some punk fashion you can buy online (I love the clothes!).
Personally I'm about to form a new band with a heavy punk influence. And I use a kind of punk style for some of my designs.
Regards.


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## rob.returns

damianvila said:
			
		

> Personally I'm about to form a new band with a heavy punk influence. And I use a kind of punk style for some of my designs.
> Regards.


 
So fenixpollo, punk is not dead after all.


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## BasedowLives

rob.returns said:
			
		

> So fenixpollo, punk is not dead after all.



i think he means the scene as a whole is dead.

a small handful of bands' existence is not enough to qualify for a thriving scene.


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## fenixpollo

Damianvila, I respect you as an artist and I respect you for your personal story above, but I'm going to use your post as an example of why punk is dead.  No offense. 


			
				damianvila said:
			
		

> As with all this kind of phenomenons, *it lost momentum and finally degraded* into a more mainstream version of what it originally was.
> *But I belive some of the spirit remained in rock music, specially some bands.*
> And *you can see influences* of the punk fashion everywhere.
> 
> Personally I'm about to form a new band with a heavy *punk influence*. And I use a kind of *punk style* for some of my designs.


 Most stories about punk rock are, like dv's, written in past tense.  While the style and influence remain, the punk rock movement ended -- the only argument is _when_.  

What people call "punk" now is not punk, but something different that has evolved from punk, or borrowed from it, and this new movement has co-opted the name "punk".  The bands that exist are good bands, and talented, and all that.  They may have been inspired by the Pistols, Clash, Siouxie, NY Dolls, etc.... but they are something new.


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## Swettenham

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> What people call "punk" now is not punk, but something different that has evolved from punk, or borrowed from it, and this new movement has co-opted the name "punk".  The bands that exist are good bands, and talented, and all that.  They may have been inspired by the Pistols, Clash, Siouxie, NY Dolls, etc.... but they are something new.


That turns this into a debate over terminology, which is really what it should be.  The question is, what is punk?


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## damianvila

Hey!, fenixpollo, no offense, really!
I do agree with you, punk's (as a movement) dead.
Punk rock and fashion influences remains, though.
Grunge's dead, too. And most of what once was the skater movement (I'm really surprised to see Tony Hawk still around, but where's Natas Kaupas?, and Lance Mountain, Steve Caballero, Tommy Guerrero, Mike McGill, Rodney Mullen...?).
That's OK. Those movements where not supposed to last. They appeared in a very particular social and political context that has dissapeared, so it's motivation's are long gone.
My new band will *not* be a punk band. It will have an evident punk influence, but I'm trying to make something new, so it will also have some electronic influence too (punks with synthesizers?  ). That will definitely not be punk...
I think that the "punk rock" entry in Wikipedia is a very interesting reading.
Regards.


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## Maria Juanita

Hola a todos. Hi everyone...
I think that to have the whole idea of what Punk means, we just have to read the "Punk Manifesto" (available in Bad Religion's website). I also recommend this link: "punksunidos"which has some pretty good ideas about it. What's interesting about the punk movement is that it's based on the idea of fighting against fear and stupidity and finding salvation through music -noise- and a whole _new _ spiritual concept.
When I was younger, I wanted to be a punk, but I found out later I was deceiving myself with it: I was about to go to the University, and trying hard to be part of the society. I didn't have an "attitude", (even though sometimes, it's not all about tatoos and piercings and stuff)...  

Anyway, as it always happens, every "ism" n/or mouvement is called to be ruined by society and stupid p pl who misunderstand it, and...long story short, history repeats itself. Remember Bob Marley's dread looks and what happened to it?? now anyone can go to a beauty parlor and have a "jamaican" look and buy a pair of pants all riped off and look "cool".    

saludillos...


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## rob.returns

I think Bob Marley is far more meaningful than the punk movement. It entails happiness, being with yourself, loving one another, and enjoying every bit of it. 
In addition, it goes with responsibility, its being against the government that does abuses, slavery, the superiority-and-inferiority phenomenon.
Although I don't agree with marijuana usage(but i think this would be an exemption for their movement or religion, not sure about this). But still up until now, it relaxes me, make me see what is the whole world all about and how bad would reality bite you if you are pathetically blind about it.

If Im depressed or not in the mood, the music of the great reggaeist would do wonders. 

Punk movement would be more on being sick and tired of life, not wanting to be normal. Harnessing the urge to be mad and unpretentious. 





			
				Maria Juanita said:
			
		

> Anyway, as it always happens, every "ism" n/or mouvement is called to be ruined by society and stupid p pl who misunderstand it, and...long story short, history repeats itself. Remember Bob Marley's dread looks and what happened to it?? now anyone can go to a beauty parlor and have a "jamaican" look and buy a pair of pants all riped off and look "cool".
> 
> saludillos...


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## Maria Juanita

Hi again, everyone. Hi Rob...  
I took my time to answer this, so here we go (It might take long, jejeje)...

I've never tried to compare Mr Marley with Punk movement, cuz they're totally different (not opposite, though), Rob. I just wanted to take his dread looks for an instance on how some aesthetics based on ideologies suddenly turn out to become fashionable (and comercializable...and I have many other examples of that) What I meant was that those dread looks have some spiritual meaning and the person who wears it usually goes against fashion and consumerism rules, but now we see many p-pl on t.v. and many teenagers who think that's "cool" and go to a store get a jamaican look, with very expensive t-shirts and stuff...
Nevertheless, it has nothing to do with Marley's figure, which remains legendary, meaningful and powerful.
Some of my friends are part of some culture related to reggae, hip hop, "rasta fari" and stuff like that, and I've learned with them that this kind of music is really REDEMPTIVE (If I may say so) and it has such a big impact in p-pl's heart that it would be impossible for me to describe here. It's the most spiritual music i've found -considerering POP as reference, even though that would be very subjective-

_**The fact that my nickname is Maria Juanita, it doesn't mean that I agree with pot usage -however, I don't disagree, though...jejeje-**._   
When it comes to the Punk issue, I have some other things to say ...


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## Swettenham

rob.returns said:
			
		

> I think Bob Marley is far more meaningful than the punk movement. It entails happiness, being with yourself, loving one another, and enjoying every bit of it.
> In addition, it goes with responsibility, its being against the government that does abuses, slavery, the superiority-and-inferiority phenomenon.
> Although I don't agree with marijuana usage(but i think this would be an exemption for their movement or religion, not sure about this). But still up until now, it relaxes me, make me see what is the whole world all about and how bad would reality bite you if you are pathetically blind about it.
> 
> If Im depressed or not in the mood, the music of the great reggaeist would do wonders.
> 
> Punk movement would be more on being sick and tired of life, not wanting to be normal. Harnessing the urge to be mad and unpretentious.


I like that.  I like that a lot.  Well said, Rob.


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## pentangeli

hi ...i will like to know about the gothic people ..are they another branch of the punk fashion? or just another movement ?


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## Maria Juanita

Here are some quotes on what Punk means. (They're not mine, but they express my feelings about it...)


"PUNK is:
-The personal expression of uniqueness that comes from experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.
-A movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated trough willful ignorance of human nature.
-The constant struggle against fear of social repercussions.
-A process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social revolution."

(From: Punk Manifesto by Greg Graffin.)

*"(To me) Punk Rock means Freedom"-Kurt Cobain-*


I agree with Rob when it comes to Bob Marley, but what I say is that Punk rock is more than "being sick and tired of life". And when I said that I wanted to be normal, I meant that I realized I could never be a Punk rocker, at least not in the way many p-pl thinks of it. If we try to find a concept of Punk -as mouvement n/or as way of thinking/living, music, etc, by searching the meaning of the word in a dictionnary it don't give us a clear idea of the whole thing; it's not all about anger and social alienation...(In my humble opinion...well, I'm just a girl,   and I would appreciate any corrections or discussions on this points of views. It's always stimulating to find ppl who disagrees with you or has things to say about yr comments. It's a way to learn more and surprise oneself with the differences between us. tnx)

Saludillos...


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## Maria Juanita

Pentagelli, there's another thread on the meaning of goth. Anyway, it s another sub-culture based on darkness and romantic litterature (E.A. Poe, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Mary Shelley, etc) 

nos vemos...


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## zebedee

Maria Juanita said:
			
		

> Here are some quotes on what Punk means. (They're not mine, but they express my feelings about it...)
> 
> 
> "PUNK is:
> -The personal expression of uniqueness that comes from experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.
> -A movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated trough willful ignorance of human nature.
> -The constant struggle against fear of social repercussions.
> -A process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social revolution."
> 
> (From: Punk Manifesto by Greg Graffin.)
> 
> *"(To me) Punk Rock means Freedom"-Kurt Cobain-*
> 
> 
> I agree with Rob when it comes to Bob Marley, but what I say is that Punk rock is more than "being sick of tired of life". And when I said that I wanted to be normal, I meant that I realized I could never be a Punk rocker, at least not in the way many *p-pl* thinks of it. If we try to find a concept of Punk -as mouvement *n/or* as way of thinking/living, music, etc, by searching the meaning of the word in a dictionnary it don't give us a clear idea of the whole thing; it's not all about anger and social alienation...(In my humble opinion...well, I'm just a girl,  and I would appreciate any corrections or discussions on this points of views. It's always stimulating to find *ppl *who disagrees with you or has things to say about *yr *comments. It's a way to learn more and surprise oneself with the differences between us. *tnx*)
> 
> Saludillos...


 
Hola María Juanita,

Gracias por tus pensamientos y reflexiones sobre este asunto.
Por favor, no uses abreviaciones como las que te he marcado en negrita. Recuerda que, al estar vinculados a un diccionario, muchísimas personas usan nuestros posts en estos foros para aprender idiomas y no quisiéramos confundirles.

Gracias,

Un saludo,
zebedee
Moderator


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## Maria Juanita

Pentagelli, there's another thread on the meaning of goth. Anyway, it s another sub-culture based on darkness and romantic litterature (E.A. Poe, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Mary Shelley, etc) 

nos vemos...


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## Maria Juanita

entendido. Gracias, Zebedee...


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## pentangeli

y de donde nacen estas culturas tanto el punk como la gotica?


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## Beautiful Princess

damianvila said:
			
		

> The original punk movement, wich started with punk music, was full with rebellious individual anti-society attitude. If I'm not wrong, people in the UK moved to squattered houses, wore broken/painted clothes, pins, razor blades, safety pins and cut and dyed their own hair to show their radical opinions. They where trying to be "out of the system" in an aggressive way (in clear contrast to the hippies, the heavy metals, etc.). It was a "spit in your face" attitude.
> 
> In Argentina specifically it was a little more dangerous, since it was a rebellion against a militar non-democratic government that could cost you your life (there's a famous punk band called "Violadores" wich had a song against the militar government, I still don't know how they managed not to get killed by that).
> 
> Soon the spirit was translated to every part of the movement, specially fanzines and graphic material (posters, flyers, t-shirts, etc).
> 
> As with all this kind of phenomenons, it loose momentum and finally degraded into a more mainstream version of what it originally was.
> 
> And you can see influences of the punk fashion everywhere.
> 
> Personally I'm about to form a new band with a heavy punk influence. And I use a kind of punk style for some of my designs.
> Regards.


 
Hi.. 

Heard of the punk influence in music, in fashion as well... for me punk in terms of being activists... also exists... though punks for me are those trying to be radicals as you have mentioned...


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## damianvila

Well, it's funny, because for different people it will mean different things.
For me, punk is all about an Do-It-Yourself attitude that I really like...
But, to quote Monty Python, I guess I "always look at the brightest side of life"...
Regards.


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