# Dialects of German



## Sisyphus the Repetitive

I have read that Standard German comes mainly from High German, but I have always been told that it is most similar to the German spoken around Berlin, which as I understand it would be Low German. Is this correct? If so, how? Also, how much does the dialect vary on a village by village basis?


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## Frank78

Hi Sisyphus,

well it's partly true. Standard German is actually spoken in an originally Low German-speaking area, but not the Berlin-area. It's said the dialects in Lower Saxony, especially Hanover come closest to Standard German.



Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> If so, how? Also, how much does the dialect vary on a village by village basis?



Well, I'd say in my region it's roughly 10-15 miles before I hear a noticable difference. People from other parts of Germany might not hear the difference though.


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## Kajjo

Yes, it irritating, even for natives.

There are terms like "lower German / higher German" indicating dialects and referring to lower or higher altitude of the areas.

There is also the term "high" in the sense of "standard". 

These two completely independent and contrary (!) definitions mix up and nobody really understands it anymore. For almost all Germans "Hochdeutsch" means "Standarddeutsch" as given by codification. For a small linguisticly interested minority, "Hochdeutsch" is a strong Southern dialect. That's why we, in this forum, mostly speak from "standard German".


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## Schimmelreiter

For starters,


_*Hochdeutsch* steht für:_

_Standarddeutsch (auch Schriftdeutsch), die deutsche Standardsprache in den Varietäten_
_Bundesdeutsches Hochdeutsch,_
_Österreichisches Deutsch und_
_Schweizer Hochdeutsch._

_Hochdeutsche Dialekte, die Mundarten im mittel- und oberdeutschen Raum_

Hochdeutsch – Wikipedia


in English
Hochdeutsch - Wikipedia


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## Frank78

Where does the OP confuse standard and High German? As I read it, he is just surprised that in an originially Low German-speaking area a dialect is spoken that comes close to standard German, which ultimately has its origins in High and not Low German.


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## Schimmelreiter

As for the _bundesdeutsche _variety of standard German, what's Saxony today was considered "purest", linguistically, in the eighteenth century, only to be replaced by Hanover in the nineteenth.


berndf said:


> Noch radikaler war der Verlust des ursprünglichen Dialekts nur noch in der Gegend Hannover/Göttingen. Dort hat sich gar kein neuer, auf dem Hochdeutschen basierender Dialekt entwickelt, der dieses Phänomen aufweisen könnten. Daher auch die oft zu hörende Aussage, dass die Leute in der Gegend "das reinste Hochdeutsch sprechen".


Ich hatte doch da die Sache mit die Juden






As I indicated above, German, like English, is a pluricentric language, there being the _bundesdeutsche_, Austrian and Swiss varieties of standard German.


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## Sisyphus the Repetitive

Thank you all for replying, I think I better understand the situation now. I still wonder though about the degree of mutual intelligibility between the dialects. If one were a native of Saxony, how far could you travel before the local dialect can't be understood?


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## Frank78

Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> I still wonder though about the degree of mutual intelligibility between the dialects. If one were a native of Saxony, how far could you travel before the local dialect can't be understood?



That depends on many factors and is hard to generalize, e.g. the heavyness of the accent, the exposition of the other person to Saxon, the intoxication with alcohol... 

Another problem is that German dialects tend to be similar from the west to the east but can rather quickly change in north-south direction.

If it's not a total rural heavy dialect then all of them are pretty intelligible. My problems only occur in the south, Switzerland, rural Bavaria, South Tyrol.


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## Sisyphus the Repetitive

Frank78 said:


> That depends on many factors and is hard to generalize, e.g. the heavyness of the accent, the exposition of the other person to Saxon, the intoxication with alcohol...
> 
> Another problem is that German dialects tend to be similar from the west to the east but can rather quickly change in north-south direction.
> 
> If it's not a total rural heavy dialect then all of them are pretty intelligible. My problems only occur in the south, Switzerland, rural Bavaria, South Tyrol.



Are you still able to understand a Swiss-speaker for example?


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## Schimmelreiter

Are we talking dialects or standard varieties?
The standard varieties, of which one is standard Swiss, are mutually intelligible save for some lexical peculiarities, pretty much like AmE and BrE.


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## Sisyphus the Repetitive

Schimmelreiter said:


> Are we talking dialects or standard varieties?
> The standard varieties, of which one is standard Swiss, are mutually intelligible save for some lexical peculiarities, pretty much like AmE and BrE.



Sorry, I was referring to local varieties. I know these vary amongst themselves so let's take a native of Bern for example.


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## bearded

Frank78 said:


> It's said the dialects in Lower Saxony, especially Hanover come closest to Standard German.


You certainly mean ''the local varieties in Lower Saxony'':  by 'dialects' there I would consider Niedersächsich, which is by no means so close to Standard German - as far as I know.


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## berndf

Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> I have read that Standard German comes mainly from High German, but I have always been told that it is most similar to the German spoken around Berlin, which as I understand it would be Low German. Is this correct? If so, how? Also, how much does the dialect vary on a village by village basis?


I explained the historical development in the area on a different context a short while ago:


berndf said:


> Berlin hat, wie andere Städte im Norden, eine Besonderheit: Berlin war ursprünglich niederdeutsch- und nicht wie heute mitteldeutschsprachig. In dem heute verloren gegangenen havelländischen Dialekt, wie er in Fontanes Ballade von Herrn _Ribbeck auf Ribbeck im Havelland_ (der Ort liegt heute nur wenige km von der Berliner Stadtgrenze) noch dokumentiert ist zeigt in etwa, wie sich Berlinerisch heute anhören würde, wenn der ursprüngliche Dialekt überlebt hätte.
> 
> Wie viele Residenz- und freie Städte im niederdeutschen Sprachraum wechselte Berlin im 16. Jahrhundert mit dem Niedergang der niederdeutschen Geschäfts- und Literatursprache von Niederdeutsch zu Hochdeutsch. Niederdeutsch wurde zur "Bauernsprache" auf dem Land. Niederdeutsche Dialekte gehört nun aber zu denjenigen, in denen Akkusativ und Dativ praktisch nicht mehr unterscheidbar sind. Wenn man nun _Ick leev di _plötzlich in Hochdeutsch sagen soll, kann man bei wört-wörtlicher Übersetzung nicht sagen, ob es _Ich liebe dich_ oder _Ich liebe dir_ heißen soll. Es waren also Sprecher, die die Unterscheidung von Dativ und Akkusativ praktisch bereits seit langem verlernt hatten, damit konfrontiert, eine Sprache sprechen zu müssen, in der sie sich für die eine oder die andere Form entscheiden mussten. Heraus kam dabei dann eine sehr eigene Distribution von Dativ und Akkusativ in der sich neu entwickelnden Volkssprache. In vielen anderen niederdeutschen Städten, z.B. Hamburg, Bremen oder Lübeck, war der Verlust der alten Volkssprache nie so vollständig wie in Berlin und die Diglossie zwischen niederdeutscher Volkssprache und hochdeutscher Bildungssprache ist nie ganz verloren gegangen. Darum haben sich solche Phänomene dort nicht eingestellt, weil die Hochdeutschsprecher in solchen Grammatikfragen hinreichend sattelfest waren, sodass es zu keinen Dativ-Akkusativ-Vermischungen kam.
> 
> Noch radikaler war der Verlust des ursprünglichen Dialekts nur noch in der Gegend Hannover/Göttingen. Dort hat sich gar kein neuer, auf dem Hochdeutschen basierender Dialekt entwickelt, der dieses Phänomen aufweisen könnten. Daher auch die oft zu hörende Aussage, dass die Leute in der Gegend "das reinste Hochdeutsch sprechen".



Unfortunately, this is all in German. If you have trouble understanding it let me know. The gist of it is that with the demise of the Low German standard language in the 16th century, Low German was replaced by different varieties of High German in some areas, especially in the cities. Southern Niedersachsen (roughly south of Celle and north of Hannoversch Münden) is special because in that area the native dialect is completely lost and the modern colloquial language is an assimilation of the historical Middle German standard (until about 250 years ago Middle and Upper German had distinct standard registers which still influence modern Standard German usage).


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## Hutschi

Hi, as far as I understand it, in the former Low German areas they learned High German as a kind of foreign language. This reduced the amounts of irregularities as well in the sound system, as in vocabulary.
Berlin is a special case. In earlier times they spoke low German dialects. Later Berlin had a lot of "immigrants" from all dialect areas and it mixed up in a special way.

---
Concerning "sächsisch" - it was placed in the middle and so Luther assumed that most people could understand it.
Nowadays its reputation is low, I do not know why. Maybe because Saxxony lost all wars (This is a kind of joke.)

---
You have to split local varities of the colloquial language for Standard German with underlaying accent - and dialects.

In Dresden they do not speak dialect anymore but accent.
The same in Potsdam and mostly in Berlin.
But some speak really one of the Berlin dialects.

I knew only three or four persons in Dresden speaking saxxon dialect.

Where I came from (südlicher Thüringer Wald) the distance between different dialect varities may be as short as 4...5 km.
My mother came from Haselbach, my father from Steinach with different versions of "itzgründisch" - part of the "Oberfränkische Dialektgruppe".

They speak no dialect to strangers. So you seldom hear dialect there. The dialect itself is almost as different to standard German as Dutch.
It is not comprehensable. Different words, different grammar, different sound system.
Many words are kept which are not in standard German anymore.

Example: litzel = little

Lots of words sound similar to standard but you would misunderstand them.

Gruserich is not Gras but Schnittlauch.
Mahlflöck is a kind of Semmelknödel (Mehlflocken)

For others I do not know High German words.
Öwaschicharuhm is Kohlrabi
Zahmet is Kartoffelbrei

the system of directions

rauf un raa - herauf und herunter
nauf un naa - hinauf und hinab

ninter (nach hinten)
nunter (hinunter)
nei un naus (hinein und hinaus)
rei un raus (herein und heraus)
rüber und nüber (herüber, hinüber)

nein Wald = in den Wald hinein
di hool nauf = den Hohlweg hinauf

Double negation:
is kept:
_Wenn da kää Gald niä host, kaas da de fei nex gekeaf. Itzgründisch – Wikipedia_

Special "dative"-Genitive
_Mei Mudda ihr Haus (My mother her house=my mother's house)_
In standard German this is not available anymore, except in colloquial language where it is prohibited but often used.

Different local forms of greetings:
"Diena!" (Diener, "At your service") = Guten Tag

Of course there are sound shifts:

Husn = Hose/Hosen
Housn = Hase/Hasen

"Wu d hasn hosn hasn un d hosn husn hasn." (in some areas o is spoken "ou" as diphtongue, which is impossible in Standard German).
(literally Wo die Hasen Hosen heißen und die Hosen Hasen heißen)

Extended usage of diminutives
Mei Häusla = Mein Haus (nicht "mein Häuschen")


I wrote this to show you some differences between standard language and dialects.


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## Sisyphus the Repetitive

I plan on visiting Germany this summer and a great interest of mine was to travel between the different regions and observe the changes in dialect. I already understood that I probably wouldn't be spoken to in dialect, and maybe not in German at all when they realize I'm American, but do you think I will have any exposure to dialects during my trip? I also plan to live in Europe, no doubt in Germany for some time. If I were to live in an area long enough, would the locals eventually use a dialect with me?


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## Dan2

Hi StR - I think you'll find this thread of interest, especially the second half:
Deutsche Standard-Aussprache (lessons in German schools?)



Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> a great interest of mine (is) to travel between the different regions and observe the changes in dialect. I already understood that I probably wouldn't be spoken to in dialect,


But as a silent "eavesdropper", you will hear great variation as you travel.  As for what will happen when you speak, see the above thread...


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## Riverplatense

Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> Also, how much does the dialect vary on a village by village basis?



Just an example of my area (Tirol/Austria, Bavarian dialects): Within a valley near my native town (about 27 km/17 miles extension) there are, roughly speaking, the following words for German _rot_: [ʀoʊt], [ʀœːt], [ʀœat]. Generally, there are quite a lot of such differences in the vowel system.

Of course, morphological and syntactical differences aren't that likely to appear within a relatively small area, but there are interesting differences between dialect groups.


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## Dib

Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> I plan on visiting Germany this summer and a great interest of mine was to travel between the different regions and observe the changes in dialect. I already understood that I probably wouldn't be spoken to in dialect, and maybe not in German at all when they realize I'm American, but do you think I will have any exposure to dialects during my trip? I also plan to live in Europe, no doubt in Germany for some time. If I were to live in an area long enough, would the locals eventually use a dialect with me?



I also have similar interests and am living under similar conditions, and I am also a foreigner. I live in a region with a relatively strong presence of dialect (_Schwäbisch_), within half an hour's S-Bahn ride away from Stuttgart. I hear a lot of "mesolect" spoken around me as well as to me. The mesolect seems to be based primarily on standard German, but with a divergent phonetics (presumably shared with the real _Schwäbisch_), and peppered with dialect features, but I have rarely heard the "real dialect" (as described, e.g. by Wikipedia) even when eavesdropping.


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