# この本を日本語で読めるまでに、頑張ります。



## Myuu

Hello everyone,

I have a question about までに. 
I learned that まで means "until" and までに means "by." 
But there seem to be some times where　までに still means "until" and I don't understand why.

この本を日本語で読めるまでに、頑張ります。

この本を日本語で読めるまでに、勉強します。

いい成績を取れるまでに理解しました。

いい成績を取れるまでに理解が進みました

日本語をぺらぺら喋れるまでにどのぐらいかかるの？

Can someone explain why までに works in these sentences? 
Any help is much appreciated.


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## Ocham

I'm sorry までに doesn't work propery in any of these sentences. I made a minor correction in each sentence so that it sounds natural to me.

この本を日本語で読めるまでに、頑張ります。→読めるようになるまで

この本を日本語で読めるまでに、勉強します。→読めるようになるまで

いい成績を取れるまでに理解しました。→？(We don't use まで(に) in this context.)

いい成績を取れるまでに理解が進みました→？(We don't use まで(に) in this context.)

日本語をぺらぺら喋れるまでにどのぐらいかかるの？→喋れるようになるにはどのくらい


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## uchi.m

My two cents


Myuu said:


> いい成績を取れるまでに理解しました benkyou shite, gambarimasu.



You can't say--even in your own mother language--_*I understood until I could take good grades_

(sorry! no IME installed on this PC)


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## Myuu

Huh, I'm very confused now. The corrections certainly make a lot more sense to me, but my Japanese friend (native speaker) said these all sounded OK to him - although they also sounded like abbreviations in that they implied までになる or something... Um, different dialect?  
If anyone has any thoughts on this to share, please do!

Thanks a bunch guys. 

Edit: 
What about if you change the sentences to past tense? Do they sound just as wrong?
この本を日本語で読めるまでに、頑張りました。
この本を日本語で読めるまでに、勉強しました。


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## uchi.m

Myuu said:


> Edit:
> What about if you change the sentences to past tense? Do they sound just as wrong?
> この本を日本語で読めるまでに、頑張りました。
> この本を日本語で読めるまでに、勉強しました。


Xまでに is, as you mentioned,_ until X_. What follows then is something that will cause your achievement at that time, which has not come yet, or else you'd already have achieved it. I mean, it cannot be something in the past:


> *Until I can manage to read this book in Japanese, I studied [as a cause]


The past would be okay to use if the sentence were:


> I studied so hard that I get to read this book in Japanese


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## uchi.m

(Sorry---too many edits on the last post )


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## xiaolijie

uchi.m,
This type of sentences CAN be in the past, such as you're reporting what you did, and not just what you're going to do.


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## uchi.m

Let's say there are two points in a timeline:

Point when I utter: _kono hon wo nihongo de yomeru you ni naru made ni, *benkyou shimasu*_
Point when I get to read said book in Japanese
Notice how the highlighted part works as the cause of my getting to read the book in Japanese.

Now, consider the case where you utter something in the past:

Point when I utter: _kono webusaito wo nihongo de yomeru you ni naru made ni, *benkyou shimashita*_
Point when I get to read said website in Japanese
The highlighted part now isn't the cause of my getting to read the website; it is a report about something before Point 2, and, most probably, something before Point 1, too, so that the second timeline might be better phrased like this:

Point when I started studying
Point when I utter: _kono webusaito wo nihongo de yomeru you ni naru made ni, benkyou shimashita_
Point when I get to read said website in Japanese
One might ask: if benkyou shimashita is not the cause of my reading the website in Japanese, then the former timeline is different from the latter one. Therefore both sentences, that is:

_Kono hon wo nihongo de yomeru you ni naru made ni, benkyou shimasu,_ and
_Kono webusaito wo nihongo de yomeru you ni naru made ni, benkyou shimashita_
are not syntatically equivalent. Let's take a look at what are the renditions of both in English:

I am going to study until I can manage to read this book in Japanese, and
I studied until I can manage to read this book in Japanese
What do you think?


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## xiaolijie

> What do you think?


I think you're wrong!  

Now, what do you think is wrong with this?
_Kono hon wo nihongo de yomeru you ni (naru made), benky_ō_mashita._
(It's a bit awkward to translate literally into English, but this will do:_ I studied hard so that I'm able read this book in Japanese_)

By the way, as Ocham said in post #2, you don't need "ni" after "made" in these sentences.


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## uchi.m

xiaolijie said:


> I think you're wrong!
> 
> Now, what do you think is wrong with this?
> _Kono hon wo nihongo de yomeru you ni (naru made), benky_ō_mashita._
> (It's a bit awkward to translate literally into English, but this will do:_ I studied hard so that I'm able read this book in Japanese_)
> 
> By the way, as Ocham said in post #2, you don't need "ni" after "made" in these sentences.


These ones only work because, as Ocham pointed out, you used *made* instead of *made ni*. Otherwise _benkyou suru_ shika tsukaezu wo emasen.


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## almostfreebird

Myuu said:
			
		

> この本を日本語で読めるまで*に*、頑張ります。
> この本を日本語で読めるまで*に*、勉強します。



Remove "に" from those sentences,  then they won't sound strange.

"まで" indicates the point or goal you are trying to reach.

"この本を日本語で読めるまで、頑張ります" roughly means 
 "I'll work hard to (get to) the point where I could read this book. (I won't give up)"
-------------------------------

までに is used in situations like this:

Tom broke his leg only a week ago but now he is walking by himself anyway. 
His friend is surprised to see him walking and thinks, 

"すごいな、　たった一週間で歩けるまでに回復したのか！"　
Amazing!　He got well enough to be able to walk in only a week. (He got well to the point where he could walk)

"までに" implies the feeling of surprise, unexpectedness, etc.


"いい成績を取れるまでに理解が進みました" sounds awkward .
"いい成績を取れるところまで理解が進みました" (My understanding has developed to the point where I can get good grades)  is better.


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## Aoyama

この本を日本語で読めるまで、頑張ります。I _will_ study hard ([do] the best I can) until I become able to read this book in Japanese.
この本を日本語で読めるまで、勉強します。I _will _study until ....
English will use "will" (future).
I agree that に (in までに) is not needed here, though I might have used it also.
The point could be : is までに here really a mistake or is it just _better_ not to use に ?


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## alice313

How about this?
までに presents 'perfection' of action or condition and certain time limit(deadline).
まで presents 'present progressive' of action or condition.
For example, if you say '3時までに宿題をした', that means you've done with your homework by 3 o'clock.
And '3時まで宿題をした’ means you did your homework untill 3 o'clock. (but it also means you couldn't finish it yet.)

The action of 勉強する actually doesn't have a deadline. (as you know, there's no end in studying.)
So you can say:
この本を日本語で読めるまで勉強します。(means you will have studied(i.e. keep studying) untill you can read it in Japanese.) 

But if you regard a deadline as 'the time when you can read the book in Japanese', 
then you might be able to set up ending for studying Japanese - certain level of Japanese -.
So you can also say :
この本を日本語で読めるまでに勉強します。(means you'll be done with your Japanese study to certain level, so that you can read the book in Japanese.)

I think you can say both of it, but the best choice is just using ～ようになるまで, as Ocham said too.
この本を日本語で読めるようになるまで 勉強します　which means you'll keep studying hard untill you become to read the book in Japanese.
And it sounds more natural　and it's more common expression.


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## uchi.m

almostfreebird said:


> "いい成績を取れるところまで理解が進みました" (My understanding has developed to the point where I can get good grades)  is better


This まで is different from the one from the OP in that it doesn't mean _until_, but rather _to the point_. That's why the past tense is allowed on the following clause to まで.


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## Aoyama

Yes alice, this reasoning is interesting and pertinent BUT the example given needs to be adjusted :
'3時までに宿題をowaranakerebanaranai/oerubeki' = I must finish my/this homework *by* 3.
'3時まで宿題をowarimashita'= I finished ... at 3.
'宿題をした' (宿題をsuru) is a bit unusual (though not incorrect).
この本を日本語で読めるまでに勉強します = I'll learn/study (I'll keep learning/studying) *until *I can (I'm able to) read this book in Japanese.
roughly the same as :この本を日本語で読めるようになるまで 勉強します　
You could also say :
この本をraishuu madeni kaesanakereba naranai (kaesanakya) = I must return this book *by/until *next week.


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## uchi.m

Aoyama said:


> '3時まで宿題をowarimashita'= I finished ... at 3.
> '宿題をした' (宿題をsuru) is a bit unusual (though not incorrect).


終わる is a 自動詞, right? So you cannot say 宿題を終わった, but 宿題*を終えた*、宿題*を済んだ* instead.　宿題をした doesn't sound bad, either, I think 

Hint: remember the soap operas? they finish with 終わり because they finish by themselves


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## Flaminius

宿題*を済んだ* 

The verb 済む is intransitive.  Use 済ます or change the accusative postposition to the nominative.


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## uchi.m

Flaminius said:


> 宿題*を済んだ*
> 
> The verb 済む is intransitive.  Use 済ます or change the accusative postposition to the nominative.


shukudai wo sumashita, perhaps? or maybe, boku ha shukudai ga sumimashita?


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## almostfreebird

までに　has two meanings/functions.
One is "by":
８時までに宿題を済ました(or 済ませた) or ８時までに宿題を終えた(I finished my homework by eight).

The other is "to certain point" or "to certain degree":
歩けるまでに回復した＝歩けるほどに回復した＝歩けるところまで回復した



almostfreebird said:


> Remove "に" from those sentences,  then they won't sound strange.
> 
> "まで" indicates the point or goal you are trying to reach.
> 
> "この本を日本語で読めるまで、頑張ります" roughly means
> "I'll work hard to (get to) the point where I could read this book. (I won't give up)"
> -------------------------------
> 
> までに is used in situations like this:
> 
> Tom broke his leg only a week ago but now he is walking by himself anyway.
> His friend is surprised to see him walking and thinks,
> 
> "すごいな、　たった一週間で歩けるまでに回復したのか！"
> Amazing!　He got well enough to be able to walk in only a week. (He got well to the point where he could walk)
> 
> "までに" implies the feeling of surprise, unexpectedness, etc.
> 
> 
> "いい成績を取れるまでに理解が進みました" sounds awkward .
> "いい成績を取れるところまで理解が進みました" (My understanding has developed to the point where I can get good grades)  is better.


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## Aoyama

歩けるまでに回復した＝歩けるほどに回復した＝歩けるところまで回復した = I recovered to the point of/as to being able to walk.


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## almostfreebird

By the way,
"この本を日本語で読めるまでになった(or なりました)" sounds very natural.

Literal translation into English would be very awkward, so I leave it at that.


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## Aoyama

Literal translation in English (or in most other languages) wouldn't work because of the 読める form (to be able to read), that doesn't exist elsewhere (as far as I know).
I guess 読めるまでに is similar to 読めるyouni.


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## uchi.m

Aoyama said:


> Literal translation in English (or in most other languages) wouldn't work because of the 読める form (to be able to read), that doesn't exist elsewhere (as far as I know).
> I guess 読めるまでに is similar to 読めるyouni.


Or perhaps yomeru made ni = yomeru hodo as you pointed out previously, Aoyama-san. Which means this made ni is different from the made ni proposed in the OP.


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## uchi.m

almostfreebird said:


> By the way,
> "この本を日本語で読めるまでになった(or なりました)" sounds very natural.
> 
> Literal translation into English would be very awkward, so I leave it at that.


My two cents: It turned out that I am [now] able to read this book in Japanese! [yay]


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## Aoyama

Not exactly : I finally became able to read this book in Japanese.


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## uchi.m

Aoyama said:


> Not exactly : I finally became able to read this book in Japanese.


Does this mean that までに is equivalent to ように?  Where is the feeling of surprise and success in your sentence?


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## Aoyama

> Where is the feeling of surprise and success in your sentence?


there isn't supposed to be any ... Success, a bit maybe ...


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## almostfreebird

"I finally became able to read this book in Japanese. "
I think that the adverb "finally" suggests the feeling of achievement.

"It turned out that I am [now] able to read this book in Japanese! [yay] "
It seems to me that the interjection "yay" suggests the feeling of achievement.


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## Aoyama

> "I finally became able to read this book in Japanese. "
> I think that the adverb "finally" suggests the feeling of achievement.


 yes, quite true, but no surprise.


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