# Omitting relative pronouns in Russian -- unacceptable?



## comrade b

Hello again, everyone.

English is very permissive when it comes to dropping relative pronouns, especially from informal speech.

I was always told not to skip relative pronouns in Russian, but often in doing so, using them strictly and wherever possible feels...sort of unnecessary and almost verbose.

I know you use *который* if there is an antecedent, and *что *if there isn't an antecedent (and occasionally when there is, as in *"**все, что" & "то, что"*).

However, I notice that *что gets dropped quite regularly in informal conversations, but is there a rule of thumb or something to refer to, in order to know when it's reasonable to omit it? Perhaps some examples?*


I'm guessing the usage of *который* is enforced much more stringently than *что, *and must be used at all times?

Thanks guys.


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## Maroseika

Please give exact examples with "что" to make discussion more concrete.


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## comrade b

I was worried I'd get called out for not providing an example, but I honestly have very little off the top of my head. However, simple constructions, such as

"Я думаю, что нет" часто сокращается на "Я думаю, нет"

and the like. I was wondering if, in your experience, there is a habit of omitting relative pronouns in casual speech.


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## Maroseika

Well, now the question is quite clear.

Yes, this "что" can be omitted, thus making it less formal, but far not colloquial.


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## CKM367

comrade b said:


> I'm guessing the usage of *который* is enforced much more stringently than *что, *and must be used at all times?
> 
> Thanks guys.



You seem being right; however, can you give an example of a phrase you would like to omit *который* in? Often, *который *may be substituted with *что *that cannot be omitted, e. g. *книга, которую я сейчас читаю* = *книга, что я сейчас читаю*, but you cannot say *книга я читаю* (the book I read now)


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> Often, *который *may be substituted with *что *that cannot be omitted, e. g. *книга, которую я сейчас читаю* = *книга, что я сейчас читаю*


To me, this construction with _что_ looks either obsolete or Ukrainian. I have never heard it in person.


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## gvozd

ahvalj said:


> To me, this construction with _что_ looks either obsolete or Ukrainian. I have never heard it in person.



I've never heard it too, but came across it in Russian literature many times.


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## ahvalj

gvozd said:


> I've never heard it too, but came across it in Russian literature many times.


But not contemporary.


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## CKM367

ahvalj said:


> But not contemporary.


You can google "книга, что я сейчас читаю". You'll find examples of last years.


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> You can google "книга, что я сейчас читаю". You'll find examples of last years.


Southerners?


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## rwils79

*comrade b*, maybe it'd help if I added my 5 kopecks, since I too am a learner. I used to struggle with 'который' and 'что', simply because in English we can skip it far more often than in Russian. Maybe some of this will help you. I hope so.

"*Всё, что* я вам сказал, - правда." Here, we'd simply say "What I told you is the truth". But in Russian we can't say "Что я вам сказал - правда." You can ask "Что я вам сказал?"
"Книга*, которую* я сейчас читаю." As we say in English, "the book (that) I'm reading right now". In Russian this "that" cannot be omitted in this example. "Книга я сейчас читаю" doesn't make sense, "книгу я сейчас читаю" is a little bit strange by itself, you'd say something more like "Какую книгу я сейчас читаю?" or "Угадайте*, какую* книгу я сейчас читаю!"

Девушка*, с которой* я познакомился. (The only way to say it in Russian/По-русски можно только так)

The girl with whom I got acquainted. (Most formal, correct way of saying it)
The girl whom I got acquainted with. (A mix between formal and colloquial)
The girl with who I got acquainted. (Failed attempt by someone who wants to sound smart)
The girl who I got acquainted with. (Decent attempt by someone who knows that living things require "who" rather than "that", but still not realising that it's not "who", in this situation, but "whom".)
The girl I got acquainted with. (Probably the most widespread colloquial way)
In my opinion, with the degradation of society, we no longer talk this way. We don't say "acquainted", we say "met". Then we drop the "with". "The girl I met".

Oh, we could talk about the usage of "что" and "который" until the cows come home. (Австралийское выражение, означающее что эту тему можно вечно обсуждать, потому что домой коровы уже никогда не вернутся!)

Oh and by the way, there's an older version of "который", and it's "кой". I kinda like it. "На кой чёрт я им понадобился?" (What the hell did he need me for? (A quote from the Soviet-era film "Собачье сердце")) Об этом слове подробнее на Википедии.


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## CKM367

ahvalj said:


> Southerners?


I don't think so. See, for example, http://yablor.ru/blogs/naley-ka-ryumku-roza-god/855925 . Any sign od a southerner?


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> I don't think so. See, for example, http://yablor.ru/blogs/naley-ka-ryumku-roza-god/855925 . Any sign od a southerner?


She uses a stable expression _книга "что я сейчас читаю",_ probably seen or heard somewhere. Anyway, I think it must be somehow geographically restricted: may be taken from relatives that originate from the south, or used in some pockets elsewhere in the Russian-speaking area. I honestly have never heard it either in SPB or on the radio. In contrast, in Ukrainian _що_ is the major way to unite subordinate clauses (e. g.: _У США двоє конгресменів підготували законопроект, який пропонує уточнити мандат «Голосу Америки», що є державною структурою, і реорганізувати інших, недержавних мовників США, що працюють на інші країни і отримують кошти на це з американського бюджету у вигляді ґрантів_ — http://www.radiosvoboda.org/content/article/25368645.html).


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> To me, this construction with _что_ looks either obsolete or Ukrainian. I have never heard it in person.



I actually hear this quite regularly from some of my relatives from Odessa (they don't speak Ukrainian at all, only Russian; and they currently live in Israel, so things might have changed).


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> I actually hear this quite regularly from some of my relatives from Odessa (they don't speak Ukrainian at all, only Russian).


The last 90 years Odessa has been located in Ukraine. It may change, however ,-)


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## Drink

Also Gorodnitsky, who was from Leningrad, sings in one of his songs, "И тень оленя, *что* бежит по тундре".


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> Also Gorodnitsky, who was from Leningrad, sings in one of his songs, "И тень оленя, *что* бежит по тундре".


I guess it is done for metric purposes (_который_ is two syllables longer). I don't say this construction is impossible: it does occur in the old texts and hence any educated person is familiar with it, but it seems to be not in active use to the north of Ukraine anymore.

I personally dislike it for two reasons: I don't like the hard _ш_ and I don't like that _что_ lacks case, gender and number agreement provided by _который_.


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## CKM367

The words *тот, что я знаю* or *тот, что я дал тебе *are more common in all Russia than *тот, который я знаю* or *тот, который я дал тебе*


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> The words *тот, что я знаю* or *тот, что я дал тебе *are more common in all Russia than *тот, который я знаю* or *тот, который я дал тебе*


I can swear I have never ever heard any of these _что_-phrases.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> I can swear I have never ever heard any of these _что_-phrases.



I have never heard "тот, что", but I have heard and even use myself "то, что".


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> I have never heard "тот, что", but I have heard and even use myself "то, что".


_То, что я дал тебе_ is standard.
_То кольцо, что я дал тебе_ is not used where I live.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> _То, что я дал тебе_ is standard.
> _То кольцо, что я дал тебе_ is not used where I live.



That's exactly my point.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> _То кольцо, что я дал тебе_ is not used where I live.



That's really wonderful. For me что here seems much more natural than the ponderous который.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> That's really wonderful. For me что here seems much more natural than the ponderous который.


I have heard that in the early years of the UN a chairman asked what was the meaning of the Russian "katori": it was the most frequent word he was hearing from the Soviet speakers.


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## ahvalj

Just out of curiosity:
_"книгу, которую я читал"_ — 876 000 entries — https://www.google.ru/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=B6diU8WpJoydwAPqooCIDA

_"книгу, что я читал"_ — 41 700 entries — https://www.google.ru/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=AKdiU7z4G4ydwAPqooCIDA


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## CKM367

Drink said:


> I have never heard "тот, что", but I have heard and even use myself "то, что".


Haven't you ever heard the words "*Умер мой сосед, что справа, тот, что слева, ещё нет*"? Does the line seem to you obsolete or dialectical?


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> Haven't you ever heard the words "*Умер мой сосед, что справа, тот, что слева, ещё нет*"? Does the line seem to you obsolete or dialectical?


The word _obsolete_ I had used may be not the right one: they are not obsolete for the entire language (like _понеже_) but obsolete for the everyday speech (like_ кабы_). These constructions with _что_ exist as part of the passive knowledge: I am ready to meet them in the literature, fixed phrases or in the provincial speech, but this conjunction is not in active use anymore, at least in SPB and in the formal texts. So, I expect to encounter either _*кабы* умер мой сосед, *что* справа_ or _*если бы* умер мой сосед (, *который*) справа._


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> I have heard that in the early years of the UN a chairman asked what was the meaning of the Russian "katori": it was the most frequent word he was hearing from the Soviet speakers.



Probably, "speakers" is a key word. In the live speech который seems to me much rarer used.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Probably, "speakers" is a key word. In the live speech который seems to me much rarer used.


Let's take a script of some radio program, e. g. this: http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/svoi-glaza/1309548-echo/#element-text
Of 151 entries of the word _"что ",_ I have found none that would fit the above construction. In contrast, there are 128 entries for _"котор"_.


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## Maroseika

I'm not sure radio programme script is what I mean by the live speech. At least in the example with кольцо the word что seems to me more natural for the live speech.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> I'm not sure radio programme script is what I mean by the live speech. At least in the example with кольцо the word что seems to me more natural for the live speech.


But it was a very informal talk of two young journalists about their trip. As you can see and hear, it was not a structured tale. And there are many more such scripts available.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> But it was a very informal talk of two young journalists about their trip. As you can see and hear, it was not a structured tale. And there are many more such scripts available.



I did not hear exactly this talk, but unfortunately the speech of many ЭМ journalists is too far from being natural. I'd better focus on the exact examples with что and который.


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## CKM367

*Кто из этих двоих Сергей? - Тот, что справа.* It seems to me more natural than* Тот, который справа.*


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## Drink

CKM367 said:


> *Кто из этих двоих Сергей? - Тот, что справа.* It seems to me more natural than* Тот, который справа.*



In this case, I would say "Тот, *кто* справа."


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## ahvalj

CKM367 said:


> *Кто из этих двоих Сергей? - Тот, что справа.* It seems to me more natural than* Тот, который справа.*


(1) It's a stable expression
(2) _что_ to me has a kind of folk stylistic: it may be passable when spoken but I hardly imagine it in a modern formal text.


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## CKM367

Drink said:


> In this case, I would say "Тот, *кто* справа."


That seems to me rather unusual, still less natural than even Тот, *который* справа.


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## Drink

CKM367 said:


> That seems to me rather unusual, still less natural than even Тот, *который* справа.



Well take a look at this Ngram. Clearly it's not unusual.


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## CKM367

ahvalj said:


> (2) _что_ to me has a kind of folk stylistic: it may be passable when spoken but I hardly imagine it in a modern formal text.



If you mean канцеляризм then I can agree.


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## CKM367

Drink said:


> Well take a look at this Ngram. Clearly it's not unusual.



I have looked. Sure, *тот, кто *is very natural and used in such phrases as *тот, кто знает* or *тот, кто говорит*; but in phrases like *тот, кто справа* or *тот, кто с повязкой * (when pronoun is not followed by verb) it seems more natural to speak *тот, что справа *and *тот, что с повязкой*.Remember Vladimir Vyssotsky I quoted. His language was very natural.


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