# ר (Resh) - Pronunciation



## sethmachine

Hello everyone,
                     I was wondering what the acceptable pronounciation of Resh is in Modern Hebrew.  I've been learning Hebrew all my life and I've always used a trill for Resh.


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## Nunty

Hi Seth.

No, it's not a trill; it's much farther back than that. Some people say it's like a French R, but in my experience the French R (or at least the Parisian one) is more like a khaf. The resh is almost like gargling.


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## scriptum

sethmachine said:


> Hello everyone,
> I was wondering what the acceptable pronounciation of Resh is in Modern Hebrew. I've been learning Hebrew all my life and I've always used a trill for Resh.


I am afraid the word "trill" doesn't say much in itself. "Resh" may be articulated as an uvular trill (like in French) or as an alveolar trill (like in Spanish, Italian, etc.). Both pronunciations are correct.


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## Tararam

Yes, Resh is close to the French R. it's just that sometimes the French R takes a little bit of the "ח" sound, but it's very slight and not as deep. All in all they are almost the same. I agree with scriptum both pronunciations are correct although you won't bump into many "rolled" r's like in spanish today. You can hear the rolled r from old radio broadcasters and old newscasters, but you won't hear it a lot in eveyday speech.

Nevertheless, sometimes the it does come out in speech but it's nothing intentional.
So, they are both correct only the uvular is much more common... much more.


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## sethmachine

Is it ok if I use the trilled R like the one in Spanish?  In my education, that's the way we were taught to read Hebrew with a rolled r, not a guttural one.


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## MarX

Resh can be pronounced in different ways, but I reckon the de facto standard is very close to standard German R, which is, as Nun-Translator suggested, rather different than the standard French R which sounds more like khaf (German "ach-Laut").


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## berndf

I don't think there is a big difference between German and French /r/. They can both be either [ʁ] or [ʀ], except that German also has a vocalized variant [ɐ] which is like a hatapf-patah. And either [ʁ] or [ʀ] is what I hear in Hebrew as well (I don't know about Sphardic speakers, they might pronounce Resh differently). There is a German dialect where /r/ is pronounced [x], i.e. like Kaph. But I can't hear this in Standard French at all.


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## Talib

Both Sephardim and Mizrahim traditionally pronounce it [r], like in Spanish or Arabic. Pronouncing it [ʁ] or [ʀ], like in Israeli Hebrew, was originally an Ashkenazic thing.


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## berndf

Talib said:


> Both Sephardim and Mizrahim traditionally pronounce it [r], like in Spanish or Arabic. Pronouncing it [ʁ] or [ʀ], like in Israeli Hebrew, was originally an Ashkenazic thing.


That's what I thought for a long time as well. I was very surprised to learn, e.g. here, that [ʀ] existed already in Tiberian Hebrew.


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## Talib

I find that claim extremely dubious. Why would there be a uvular R in a Semitic language spoken in the Middle East? This feature is distinctly European. It is believed to have begun in French in the last few hundred years and spread from there.

Given that Mizrahi and traditional Sephardic dialects have only an alveolar /r/ I strongly suspect this pronounciation originated in Yiddish under German influence, and the Ashkenazim who founded Israel transferred it (along with other features like merging ח and ע with כ and א) into their Hebrew.


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## berndf

There are contemporary sources suggesting the existence of a front and a back Resh in Tiberian (not Babylonian!) Hebrew, depending on whether the Resh is pronouncing close to a back of a front sound. If you have access to JSTOR or to the printed journal, have a look here.

There is some speculation about an alleged relationship between Ashkenazi and Tiberian Hebrew on the one side and Sephardic and Babylonian Hebrew on the other side. But I think it is just that: speculation. 

But the pronunciation of Resh in Modern Hebrew is certainly due to Ashkenazi influence and has nothing to do with how Resh was pronounced 1200 years ago in Tiberias.


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## MarX

Talib said:


> I find that claim extremely dubious. Why would there be a uvular R in a Semitic language spoken in the Middle East? This feature is distinctly European. It is believed to have begun in French in the last few hundred years and spread from there.


I'm not sure if it's a French thing.
I found out that in many languages, there's always a significant share of native speakers that use uvular R.
For example in Indonesian the ocurrence of uvular R is not that infrequent. I'd say around 15% of the native speakers use it, and some of them trill it so well you don't notice that they're using a uvular R.


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## Aoyama

> "Resh" may be articulated as an *uvular* trill (like in French) or as an *alveolar *trill (like in Spanish, Italian, etc.). Both pronunciations are correct


Exactly, especially if you think that Hebrew is still a "young" language, very muched influenced by the native language of its speakers.
I'd say that "sabra" Hebrew will pronounce resh very close to the French / Parisian r.


> Some people say it's like a French R, but in my experience the French R (or at least the Parisian one) is more like a khaf.


Huh ... For me (born 2 kms from Paris), khaf is almost the same as the Spanish _jota _(coming from Arabic) and very close to the German ch as in "ach", "nacht", much more guttural than French r, which, being uvular, starts just at the top of the throat whereas khaf, jota or kh in Arabic (khamsin) is a little _below_ in the throat.


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## Talib

The sound in Arabic and Hebrew is uvular. If it were below uvular, it'd be pharyngeal, which is the sound of ح. 


> I'm not sure if it's a French thing.
> I found out that in many languages, there's always a significant share of native speakers that use uvular R.
> For example in Indonesian the ocurrence of uvular R is not that infrequent. I'd say around 15% of the native speakers use it, and some of them trill it so well you don't notice that they're using a uvular R.


I mean that it began in French and spread to other European languages (German, Danish, Yiddish etc).

Does the uvular trill really occur in Indonesia? That's interesting. I imagine it has something to do with Dutch influence.


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## Aoyama

> If it were below uvular, it'd be pharyngeal, which is the sound of ح.


That is true.
Starting with resh, we will deal now with khaf or even khet... I don't hear any difference in modern Hebrew between khaf and khet ...


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## berndf

Talib said:


> I mean that it began in French and spread to other European languages (German, Danish, Yiddish etc).


I think this is a distorted view. You seem to be implying that the uvular (or other forms or guttural) "r" has only been invented ONCE in France and spread from there. While French influence may explain the uvular "r" in STANDARD German and Danish, it would be wrong to say it not native in Germanic languages. You always had dialects with "front" and others with "back" "r"s. I am not sure the _predominance_ of the uvular "r" in Yiddish (you find different articulations of "r" in Yiddish) can be explained by 19th century development in Standard German because the languages were already well separated at that time. And even in English you find dialects with uvular "r" (Northumbrian) where you would certainly not expect French influence.

I can confirm MarX's observation from my own experience and those of friends that even in languages where the alveolar "r" is the only correct one you often find a certain percentage of speakers who use the uvular "r" (my experience is with Greek speakers).


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## MarX

berndf said:


> I can confirm MarX's observation from my own experience and those of friends that even in languages where the alveolar "r" is the only correct (you mean "standard"?) one you often find a certain percentage of speakers who use the uvular "r" (my experience is with Greek speakers).


Exactly. In languages where the standard has "tongue-R", there's always a significant percentage of those who use uvular R, and the least of them are trying to copy the French. In addition to Indonesian/Malay, I've met/heard speakers of Romanian, Italian, Valencian, Spanish, etc. using uvular R.


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## berndf

I meant "correct *in* the standard". Some languages allow variations within the standard (e.g. German), some don't (e.g. Greek).


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## Talib

> Starting with resh, we will deal now with khaf or even khet... I don't hear any difference in modern Hebrew between khaf and khet ...


Most speakers don't make a distinction but I do and many Sephardim and Mizrahim do. Khaf sounds exactly like the Arabic خ and chet sounds like ح. I also pronounce the ayin which is the same as Arabic ع.


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## Aoyama

> Most speakers don't make a distinction but I do and many Sephardim and Mizrahim do. *Khaf* sounds exactly like the Arabic* خ* and *chet* sounds like *ح*. I also pronounce the *ayin* which is the same as Arabic *ع*.


This is true and shows that pronounciation/accent will vary according to origin.
Israelis (or Jews) coming from Arabic speaking countries (or knowing Arabic) will be influenced (or more rightly _go back to the semitic origin of Hebrew_) by Arabic and pronounce Hebrew the "Arabic way" or "the Middle-eastern" way.
This is why there is clearly a difference between Ashkenazic and Sephardic pronounciation.
You find this very clearly in France (where French people have always had a problem with guttural sounds -h-), where there is a striking difference of pronounciation of the above letters in Hebrew (and Arabic), depending on the community (Ashkenazi aor Sephardi).


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## majdak

Talib said:


> I find that claim extremely dubious. Why would there be a uvular R in a Semitic language spoken in the Middle East? This feature is distinctly European. It is believed to have begun in French in the last few hundred years and spread from there.
> 
> Given that Mizrahi and traditional Sephardic dialects have only an alveolar /r/ I strongly suspect this pronounciation originated in Yiddish under German influence, and the Ashkenazim who founded Israel transferred it (along with other features like merging ח and ע with כ and א) into their Hebrew.


 
I am really no expert in that, but I always thought that there must be a reason why _resh_ sometimes acts (in the grammar of Masoretic text of Bible) as guttural (_chet, ajin, alef, he_), e.g. it cannot accept _daggesh_. Cannot the rason be that _resh_ was pronounced as an alveolar? Or is that completely silly suggestion?


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## Talib

I thought that's simply because the letter couldn't be long/doubled. Like it can in Arabic (or Czech).


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## origumi

Wikipedia agrees with Talib's opinions. The following is explained there:

1. Originally the Hebrew R was similar to other Semitic languages such as modern Arabic.
2. Only 60 or 70 years ago its pronounciation changed to be more central European.
3. There is an evidence that this "European" R existed also during the middle ages in Eretz Israel but this is not conclusive.
4. R does get dagesh in 15 places in the bible and also in the Yemenite pronounciation of old texts.

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/ר


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## reletomp

well resh in classical hebrew is Resh ie R full throttle.Ancient Hebrews were semitic bedoins not goths!


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## berndf

reletomp said:


> well resh in classical hebrew is Resh ie R full throttle.Ancient Hebrews were semitic bedoins not goths!


The discussion was about Tiberian Hebrew, not about the times of nomadic tribes. And, btw, what makes you think the Goths used a uvular "r"?


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## clevermizo

I always found it interesting as well that _resh_ was listed along with the gutturals.

I believe there are dialects of Arabic in which the raa is pronounced uvular or velar (as ghayn), so this can occur as the cognate sound in a purely Semitic system. My point in saying this is it does not have to be of European origin.

It's nice to assume that Arabic is representative of the phonology that Hebrew had in the past, but it may very well be that the uvular sound is the Tiberian _resh_ and that the alveolar trill has occurred _because of Arabic influence_ rather than the uvular sound occurring because of European influence. Remember that Mizrahi Jews spoke/speak Arabic as a mother tongue.


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## Talib

I don't think any Arabic dialect does that, unless under French influence. All Arabic I've heard has an alveolar trill.


> It's nice to assume that Arabic is representative of the phonology that Hebrew had in the past, but it may very well be that the uvular sound is the Tiberian _resh_ and that the alveolar trill has occurred _because of Arabic influence_ rather than the uvular sound occurring because of European influence. Remember that Mizrahi Jews spoke/speak Arabic as a mother tongue.


Perhaps, but I don't see why there would be a uvular resh in Tiberian Hebrew. It's a very European feature. All of the other Semitic languages have an alveolar sound.

Either way the Arabic sound of ر (and Spanish r, which is similar) explain why this uvular sound is not found in Mizrahi or Sephardi speech.

Now Arabic and (classical) Hebrew phonology are not a perfect match, but they share most of the common sounds, so it makes sense to assume they sounded quite similar at the time.


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## berndf

berndf said:


> I don't think there is a big difference between German and French /r/. They can both be either [ʁ] or [ʀ], except that German also has a vocalized variant [ɐ] which is like a hatapf-patah. And either [ʁ] or [ʀ] is what I hear in Hebrew as well (I don't know about Sphardic speakers, they might pronounce Resh differently). There is a German dialect where /r/ is pronounced [x], i.e. like Kaph. *But I can't hear this in Standard French at all*.


I don't know, if this old stuff still interests anybody but I have to correct by statement. [x]~[χ] exists as an allophonic, devoiced variant of  [ʁ]~[ʀ] in front of unvoiced consonants and at the end of the word in French (e.g. in _po*r*te noi*r*_).


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## origumi

There's a commercial in the History Channel with participants of some American TV programs like Pawn Stars. They're trying to say יקר _yaqar _(expensive), but as a Hebrew speaker what I hear them saying is ya-qa-u (or ya-cow). I cannot imaging how the pronunciation (or imitation or Hebrew pronunciation) diverted so far.


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## Drink

Talib said:


> I don't think any Arabic dialect does that, unless under French influence. All Arabic I've heard has an alveolar trill.
> Perhaps, but I don't see why there would be a uvular resh in Tiberian Hebrew. It's a very European feature. All of the other Semitic languages have an alveolar sound.
> 
> Either way the Arabic sound of ر (and Spanish r, which is similar) explain why this uvular sound is not found in Mizrahi or Sephardi speech.
> 
> Now Arabic and (classical) Hebrew phonology are not a perfect match, but they share most of the common sounds, so it makes sense to assume they sounded quite similar at the time.



According to Wikipedia, there are at least a few Arabic dialects that use a guttural R:



> While most dialects of Arabic retain the classical pronunciation of ر rāʾ as an alveolar trill [r] or tap [ɾ], a few dialects use a uvular trill [ʀ]. These include:
> 
> 
> The dialect of Mosul in Iraq
> The Jewish and Christian dialects in Baghdad
> The Jewish dialect in Algiers
> The dialect of Fes in Morocco



While the last two could be due to French influence (which I still doubt), the first two could not possibly have had much French influence.


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## beezneez

origumi said:


> There's a commercial in the History Channel with participants of some American TV programs like Pawn Stars. They're trying to say יקר _yaqar _(expensive), but as a Hebrew speaker what I hear them saying is ya-qa-u (or ya-cow). I cannot imaging how the pronunciation (or imitation or Hebrew pronunciation) diverted so far.



I was surprised to find this thread right there, front and center, when I clicked on the Hebrew forum because it was just what I wanted to look up. I'm listening to a set of audio lessons on Hebrew and one of the speakers, both of whom are purported to be native Israeli speakers, pronounces his reshes like a "w" sound. Frankly, it sounds like a speech impediment and I am reluctant to imitate it. He sounds like an Israeli Elmer Fudd. The female speaker pronounces her reshes like a French "r."  Much more pleasant to the ear. Is the Elmer Fudd resh ("wesh?") common in Israel? Is it a fad, like the Valley Girl accent? From this thread, I take it I can go with either the French or the Italian approach as they are both common amongst Hebrew speakers. Toda.


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## Drink

beezneez said:


> I was surprised to find this thread right there, front and center, when I clicked on the Hebrew forum because it was just what I wanted to look up. I'm listening to a set of audio lessons on Hebrew and one of the speakers, both of whom are purported to be native Israeli speakers, pronounces his reshes like a "w" sound. Frankly, it sounds like a speech impediment and I am reluctant to imitate it. He sounds like an Israeli Elmer Fudd. The female speaker pronounces her reshes like a French "r."  Much more pleasant to the ear. Is the Elmer Fudd resh ("wesh?") common in Israel? Is it a fad, like the Valley Girl accent? From this thread, I take it I can go with either the French or the Italian approach as they are both common amongst Hebrew speakers. Toda.



That would be a uvular approximant [ʁ̞], which might sound a bit like a "w", but it is not exactly the same. I've heard many Israelis use it for the "r" sound in Hebrew, but if you prefer the uvualar fricative [ʁ̝] or the uvular trill [ʀ], then by all means use it. I think all three sounds are used interchangeably.


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## berndf

beezneez said:


> I was surprised to find this thread right  there, front and center, when I clicked on the Hebrew forum because it  was just what I wanted to look up. I'm listening to a set of audio  lessons on Hebrew and one of the speakers, both of whom are purported to  be native Israeli speakers, pronounces his reshes like a "w" sound.  Frankly, it sounds like a speech impediment and I am reluctant to  imitate it. He sounds like an Israeli Elmer Fudd. The female speaker  pronounces her reshes like a French "r."  Much more pleasant to the ear.  Is the Elmer Fudd resh ("wesh?") common in Israel? Is it a fad, like  the Valley Girl accent? From this thread, I take it I can go with either  the French or the Italian approach as they are both common amongst  Hebrew speakers. Toda.


Origumi wrote about a mispronunciation by an American actor, not about an actual pronunciation variant used by native speakers.

PS: But even I as a native speaker of a language that realizes /r/ as an uvular sound like Hebrew, hear this as [gaw] and not as [gaʁ]. How do Hebrew native speakers hear this?


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## arielipi

berndf - i see what you mean, though i can hear it as hebrew r too.

I think hebrew, influenced by all the places jews came form, developed three major r's, a person will often have one ruling, but sometimes in certain words a different one will appear.
french r.
russian r.
r gronit.


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## arbelyoni

berndf said:


> PS: But even I as a native speaker of a language that realizes /r/ as an uvular sound like Hebrew, hear this as [gaw] and not as [gaʁ]. How do Hebrew native speakers hear this?


I hear [gaʁ], and that's how I pronounce it too. Perhaps it's less noticeable when there's no vowel following it.


beezneez said:


> Is the Elmer Fudd resh ("wesh?") common in Israel? Is it a fad, like the Valley Girl accent? From this thread, I take it I can go with either the French or the Italian approach as they are both common amongst Hebrew speakers. Toda.


The Elmer Fudd Reish could be either a speech impediment or just a bad sound quality. It is not a common pronunciation in Israel.
The Italian R (ריש מתגלגלת) and the French R (ריש גרונית) are allophones of Reish. The former used to be considered more prestigious and formal while the latter used to be more colloquial. Today I don't know any native Hebrew speaker who was born and raised in Israel and uses the Italian R (unless it's for humorous purposes); in fact, I know many people who can't even produce it.


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## arielipi

arbelyoni said:


> Today I don't know any native Hebrew speaker who was born and raised in Israel and uses the Italian R (unless it's for humorous purposes); in fact, I know many people who can't even produce it.


I met a druze not long ago and he actually said the opposite; i then tried to do both but couldnt make the french r, though i can when it comes natural.


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## berndf

arbelyoni said:


> I hear [gaʁ], and that's how I pronounce it too. Perhaps it's less noticeable when there's no vowel following it.


So you say there is a tendency to vocalize /ʁ/ in a syllable coda. That makes sense and is indeed wide-spread. The difference between my and your language than seems to be that you tend to vocalize towards a high vowel or semi-vowel and we vocalize towards a low vowel, i.e. when I vocalize the /ʁ/ in /gaʁ/ (there is a German word _gar_) the result is [ga:].

I wonder how wide-spread this kind of vocalizations is? I had never realized it existed and it took me some time to find the sample I quoted (In German, vocalization of final /r/ is rather the norm than the exception). It it specific to certain groups or is it common Israeli? Does it co-exists with vocalization towards a low vowel as in German? If French speakers vocalize a final /ʁ/ which they don't do often, it is also rather towards a low than towards a high vowel.


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## airelibre

berndf said:


> So you say there is a tendency to vocalize /ʁ/ in a syllable coda. That makes sense and is indeed wide-spread. The difference between my and your language than seems to be that you tend to vocalize towards a high vowel or semi-vowel and we vocalize towards a low vowel, i.e. when I vocalize the /ʁ/ in /gaʁ/ (there is a German word _gar_) the result is [ga:].
> 
> I wonder how wide-spread this kind of vocalizations is? I had never realized it existed and it took me some time to find the sample I quoted (In German, vocalization of final /r/ is rather the norm than the exception). It it specific to certain groups or is it common Israeli? Does it co-exists with vocalization towards a low vowel as in German? If French speakers vocalize a final /ʁ/ which they don't do often, it is also rather towards a low than towards a high vowel.



I have to disagree because I've never heard a vocalised final /r/ in Hebrew. Perhaps it would be correct to say that in coda position it more often occurs that the voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] is less tense and is realised as an approximant [ʁ̞]. As for the uvular trill [ʀ] I believe it is more common initially and emphatically.


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## berndf

airelibre said:


> I have to disagree because I've never heard a vocalised final /r/ in Hebrew.


Well, I hear that particular sample (see #33) as darn close to vocalization. If you can't relate to this perception, I suppose we won't get together.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> Well, I hear that particular sample (see #33) as darn close to vocalization. If you can't relate to this perception, I suppose we won't get together.



Well approximants are basically vowels.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> Well approximants are basically vowels.


I think we essentially mean the same, yes, though approximants can actually contrast with vocalized consonants.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> Origumi wrote about a mispronunciation by an American actor, not about an actual pronunciation variant used by native speakers.
> 
> PS: But even I as a native speaker of a language that realizes /r/ as an uvular sound like Hebrew, hear this as [gaw] and not as [gaʁ]. How do Hebrew native speakers hear this?


Sounds like [ɡaʋ] to me.


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## arbelyoni

arielipi said:


> I met a druze not long ago and he actually said the opposite; i then tried to do both but couldnt make the french r, though i can when it comes natural.


What did he say? Bear in mind that Druze are not native Hebrew speakers.
And just to be clear:
"French R" - voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] or voiced uvular trill [ʀ].
"Italian R" - alveolar flap [ɾ] or alveolar trill [r].


berndf said:


> So you say there is a tendency to vocalize /ʁ/ in a syllable coda. That makes sense and is indeed wide-spread. The difference between my and your language than seems to be that you tend to vocalize towards a high vowel or semi-vowel and we vocalize towards a low vowel, i.e. when I vocalize the /ʁ/ in /gaʁ/ (there is a German word _gar_) the result is [ga:].
> 
> I wonder how wide-spread this kind of vocalizations is? I had never realized it existed and it took me some time to find the sample I quoted (In German, vocalization of final /r/ is rather the norm than the exception). It it specific to certain groups or is it common Israeli? Does it co-exists with vocalization towards a low vowel as in German? If French speakers vocalize a final /ʁ/ which they don't do often, it is also rather towards a low than towards a high vowel.





airelibre said:


> I have to disagree because I've never heard a vocalised final /r/ in Hebrew. Perhaps it would be correct to say that in coda position it more often occurs that the voiced uvular fricative [ʁ] is less tense and is realised as an approximant [ʁ̞]. As for the uvular trill [ʀ] I believe it is more common initially and emphatically.


I agree with airelibre; Reish is never vocalized in any accent or pronunciation I know. In the audio sample I hear it almost as a voiced velar fricative [ɣ].


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## لنـا

arbelyoni said:


> Today I don't know any native Hebrew speaker who was born and raised in Israel and uses the Italian R (unless it's for humorous purposes); in fact, I know many people who can't even produce it.



Since I was a kid, I thought that native Hebrew speakers in Israel can't pronounce Italian or Arabic r, because they just can't produce it, but in fact, I've heard some can, when they want to make fun and try to speak some words in Arabic!.
Since they can, why they use the French r? or it's just because it becomes widespread and people become accustomed to?


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## origumi

لنـا said:


> Since I was a kid, I thought that native Hebrew speakers in Israel can't  pronounce Italian or Arabic r, because they just can't produce it, but  in fact, I've heard some can, when they want to make fun and try to  speak some words in Arabic!.
> Since they can, why they use the French r? or it's just because it becomes widespread and people become accustomed to?


It's like the story of 7et vs. 5et. Modern Hebrew consonants usually follow the Ashkenazi accent, which is sort of "Central European" mix. This is not "French r" (althoug may be similar, @berndf is strong with these issues, he may elaborate).

Israelis can mimic several other kinds of "r" (Arabic, Russian, English, etc.) with certain success depending on the effort.


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## Drink

لنـا said:


> Since I was a kid, I thought that native Hebrew speakers in Israel can't pronounce Italian or Arabic r, because they just can't produce it, but in fact, I've heard some can, when they want to make fun and try to speak some words in Arabic!.
> Since they can, why they use the French r? or it's just because it becomes widespread and people become accustomed to?



The problem is not physical ability, but the natural tendency to mimic the way other people talk. For example, when a British person moves to America, he will slowly start picking up bits of an American accent and losing bits of his British accent (and likewise for an American who moves to Britain). I'm sure that even you, if you spent almost all of your time with native Hebrew speakers, might also start using the "French r".


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## لنـا

I see, so it depends! I can make the guttural one (gh غ in Arabic) but it makes me feel like I'm lisping!
Thank you both!


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## bazq

لنـا said:


> I see, so it depends! I can make the guttural one (gh غ in Arabic) but *it makes me feel like I'm lisping*!
> Thank you both!



Really? I don't think it should. I doubt Hebrew speakers can tell the difference between gh and the guttural R.


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## Drink

bazq said:


> Really? I don't think it should. I doubt Hebrew speakers can tell the difference between gh and the guttural R.



I'm assuming it's because she is used to the alveolar R, not because it is different from the Hebrew guttural R.


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## berndf

لنـا said:


> Since they can, why they use the French r? or it's just because it becomes widespread and people become accustomed to?


The uvular /r/ in modern Israeli Hebrew is undoubtedly due to Yiddish influence (i.e. brought to the country by immigrants with Yiddish as native language). Where Yiddish got it from (French? German?) I don't know. At the time Yiddish split from German (in late the Middle Ages), the uvular /r/ didn't yet exist in German.


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## berndf

arbelyoni said:


> I agree with airelibre; Reish is never vocalized in any accent or pronunciation I know.


It seems to be a debate about terms rather than substance. My choice of woulds might have been misleading (see #41). I tried to find a general term for similar processes of "weakening" of the velar/uvular fricative that occurs in several languages in the sillable coda.


arbelyoni said:


> In the audio sample I hear it almost as a voiced velar fricative [ɣ].


You seem to be able to hear "through" the labial component and detect a velar constriction. For me, and apparently also for Forero, the labial componant is too strong to hear a velar approximant or fricative.

It would probably need controlled experiments to decide if there is really an independently audible velar constriction involved we non-natives fail to detect or if it is just a perception by native speakers because [w]/[ʋ]/[β], or whetever it might be, is an established variant realization of /ʀ/.


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## Forero

berndf said:


> It seems to be a debate about terms rather than substance. My choice of woulds might have been misleading (see #41). I tried to find a general term for similar processes of "weakening" of the velar/uvular fricative that occurs in several languages in the sillable coda.
> You seem to be able to hear "through" the labial component and detect a velar constriction. For me, and apparently also for Forero, the labial componant is too strong to hear a velar approximant or fricative.
> 
> It would probably need controlled experiments to decide if there is really an independently audible velar constriction involved we non-natives fail to detect or if it is just a perception by native speakers because [w]/[ʋ]/[β], or whetever it might be, is an established variant realization of /ʀ/.


Actually, I do hear a velar component, but it is -like, not [ɣ]-like.


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## berndf

Forero said:


> Actually, I do hear a velar component, but it is -like, not [ɣ]-like.


That's why I said velar constriction. [w] has a velar component as well but it is vocalic, i.e. a resonance like in  but not a consonantic constriction.


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## Áskera

Hi, people! I find this so so interesting.

Is there any preference/difference of pronunciation regarding the _music _field? I have been listening to Sarit Hadad songs and it has taken me a little bit by surprise that she pronounces _resh _with the alveolar trill, given that it is music for a general public. As some of you already commented, Mizrahim traditionally pronounce _resh_ the alveolar way, and she performs the Mizrahi genre... I'm talking at least about songs like _Amen, Bat shel Melekh,_ _Aba Gadol, _etc. However, she pronounces it the uvular way in interviews and so. 

Is this a normal practice _in music_? Or it is just an artistic choice?


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## Drink

Áskera said:


> Is this a normal practice _in music_? Or it is just an artistic choice?



In Sephardi/Mizrahi music, it is part of the traditional Sephardi/Mizrahi pronunciations. Sephardi/Mizrahi singers use the traditional pronunciations to varying degrees.

In older Israeli Ashkenazi music (and perhaps in modern operatic style music), it is part of the classical European trend of preferring the alveolar trill in music, when singing in French, German, Portuguese, etc.

For Sarit Hadad, it's more likely the former, but could also be influenced by the latter.

Ultimately, it's always the artist's choice.


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## Áskera

Thank you very much for your quick feedback, Drink!

As for _Hava nagila_, which pronunciation would be the one, as a _folk song,_ you guys would urge a person to do (performed, for instance, by a choir of foreign speakers)? Would you guys find better the alveolar trill or the uvular one?




> In older Israeli Ashkenazi music (and perhaps in modern operatic style music), it is part of the classical European trend of preferring the alveolar trill in music, when singing in French, German, Portuguese, etc.


Riveting. Thanks.


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## Drink

Áskera said:


> As for _Hava nagila_, which pronunciation would be the one, as a _folk song,_ you guys would urge a person to do (performed, for instance, by a choir of foreign speakers)? Would you guys find better the alveolar trill or the uvular one?



If the foreign speakers would have trouble with the uvular sound, then I would recommend that they use the alveolar trill. If they are perfectly capable of using the uvular sound, then that is what I would recommend.


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## Áskera

Thank you, Drink. I appreciate your help, indeed


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