# Have some modern Celtic words preserved Latin better?



## Roel~

I came up with this idea because of the Italo-Celtic language group in the past.
Of course Romance languages have preserved Latin better, because they are the descendants. But maybe some words of Latin origin are more accurate in modern Celtic languages and Celtic languages are much further away from Romance languages, for that reason it's more surprising if they still have words which were very close to Latin when they were one language group.

Let's make some comparisons.

The word for 'book' in different languages:

Latin:   Liber
French:  Livre
Spanish: Libro
Italian:  Libro

Irish Gaelige:  *Leabhar
*Welsh:  *Llyfr
*
Llyfr - leabhar - liber

Livre - libro - libro - liber

I think that modern Celtic languages have preserved this word much better then the descendants of the Latin language.

Let's take another one:

I 'm not sure about this, so correct me if I 'm wrong.

*why *and *because *are two words which are connected to eachother. The Latin word for *because *is*nam*.
The Welsh word for *why* is *pam*. Can anybody check if this is related or is this coincidence?

_Dog_

Welsh: *ci
*Latin: *canis
*
Modern Romance languages:  Fr: le chien      Es: El perro    It: el cane   Rum: câine

I think that in both the Romance languages as the Celtic languages the Latin origin can be seen, but still the Romance languages are closer here.


_Horn_

Welsh: *corn
*Latin: *cornu*

Fr: *corne*  Es: *cuerno*      It: *corno*   Rum: *corn
*
Both Welsh and Rumanian have the same word and seem to be close to cornu.

_God_

Welsh: *duw
*Latin: *divus


*Fr: *dieu     *Es: *dios *        It: *dio*          Rum: *dumnezeu
*
In this case Welsh seems to be surprisingly the most accurate one. The 'v' from Latin is best preserved in Welsh, which has: 'duw' as word for God, which sounds a lot like 'div' from divus, while the Romance language have lost the 'v' and aren't as similar as Welsh to the Latin anymore.

_punishment
_
Welsh: *poen
*Latin: *poena
*
Fr: *punition*       Es: *castigo*   It: *punizione*  Rum: *pedeapsă
*
Surprisingly, it's best preserved in Welsh.
_
window_

Welsh: *ffenestr*
Latin: *fenestra*

Fr: *fenêtre     *Es: *ventana     *It: *finestra       *Rum: *fereastră*

The Italian _finestra _is the closest one of course, but out of the French, Spanish and Rumanian versions, the Welsh one is the second closest though with ffenestr.

It could be of Germanic origin too of course.

I don't know why but Spanish has the most alternative words for some reason.


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## caelum

Roel~ said:


> I don't know why but Spanish has the most alternative words for some reason.



That's just due to the fact that the Iberian Peninsula was quite secluded thanks to the Pyrenees. Spanish and Portuguese (Catalan, etc) keep a large number of Latin words that had gone out of style in Roman Latin and other Romance languages. Plus they have a large number of Celtic, Arabic, and Germanic borrowings.


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## rbrunner

I am not certain, but I don't think the words that you give are similar in Romance and in Celtic languages because once there was an Italo-Celtic language as a common ancestor, possibly in the third or second millennium BC, according to this Wikipedia article.

I think the words that you give are *loan words* from Latin or early Romance descendant languages into Celtic languages. They are then much, much younger than words of common ancestry, several thousand years younger in fact, and thus it's not very surprising that there is still a high similarity.

Italo-Celtic seems to be controversial as a construct/theory anyway, if the Wikipedia article is accurate.


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## Gavril

As RBrunner said, most of these are cases of loans from Latin to Celtic, not commonly inherited words. I think that most of them were adopted during the Roman era or shortly afterwards (modern-day Wales was part of the Roman Empire for almost four centuries).



Roel~ said:


> Latin:   Liber
> [...]
> Irish Gaelige:  *Leabhar
> *Welsh:  *Llyfr
> *



Both the Irish and Welsh words were adopted from Latin _liber_ (which has no cognates in other IE languages, to my knowledge).



> *why *and *because *are two words which are connected to eachother. The Latin word for *because *is*nam*.
> The Welsh word for *why* is *pam*. Can anybody check if this is related or is this coincidence?



I think _pam_ comes from an interrogative stem *pa-* plus the preposition *am* "because of" (cognate with Latin _ambi_-). An earlier form of Welsh _pam_ was _*paham*, _which more clearly shows_ -am as _a separate element.



> _Dog_
> 
> Welsh: *ci
> *Latin: *canis
> *



Welsh *ci* (plural _cwn_, pronounced "kun") is cognate with English _*houn*d_, Greek *kuon*, etc. The Latin term seems to be related to these, but the vowel of _c*a*nis_ is unexpected, so it may be a loan from a neighboring Italic or non-Italic language.

_



			Horn
		
Click to expand...

_


> Welsh: *corn
> *Latin: *cornu*



The Welsh word is considered a loan from the Latin here. A possible cognate of Lat. _cornu_ is Welsh _carn_ "hoof".

_



			God
		
Click to expand...

_


> Welsh: *duw
> *Latin: *divus
> *


These (along with Irish *dia*) are indeed cognates, based on earlier *_deiwos_.



> _punishment
> _
> Welsh: *poen
> *Latin: *poena
> *



The Welsh word comes from Latin, which in turn comes from Greek _poine_.
_



			window
		
Click to expand...

_


> Welsh: *ffenestr*
> Latin: *fenestra*



Latin > Welsh loan.


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## Tegs

One of those is incorrect. The Welsh word for punishment is cosb, which is quite different from the Latin. Poen means pain


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## francisgranada

Roel~ said:


> ...  I don't know why but Spanish has the most alternative words for some reason.


The words _punición, punir _(verb), _pena _do exist also in Spanish and _castigo_ exists also in Italian. As to dog, _perro _is commonly used, but the the noun _can _still exists. _Finiestra _for window is no more used, however it was used in the past.


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## Stoggler

Roel~ said:


> Leabhar
> [/B]Welsh:  *Llyfr
> *
> Llyfr - leabhar - liber
> 
> Livre - libro - libro - liber



Apart from being a borrowing from Latin rather than being cognate (as already mentioned), I'd hardly have said that the Celtic versions are better "preservations" of the original Latin compared to the modern Romance versions.  For starters, the Welsh word starts with a sound that didn't even exist in Latin, and the 'bh' digraph in the Irish word isn't pronounced.  On the other hand, the Italian word matches the Latin ablative and dative forms of the word, as does the Spanish word when written on paper (and almost in sound too, the quality of the 'b' varying from the Latin).  And if you ask me, the French word is no further from Latin than the two Celtic versions given.


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## Cilquiestsuens

As mentioned by Gavril, some of the words mentioned are Latin loans. You can add *pont* (bridge) to your list and many others I guess, and by the way, the Breton language also has the exact same loans.

Many other words seem to be cognates and, I would agree with Roel~, that in some (rare?) cases the modern Celtic form seems to be closer to the original Latin than any other language, whether it is a loan or a cognate.

ex: (Br.): *deskiñ* (stem: *desk*-) : to learn = Cf. (Lat.) *discere* (stem: *disc*-) : to learn.

I am sure we could find a number of other examples.


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## fdb

Gavril said:


> Both the Irish and Welsh words were adopted from Latin _liber_ (which has no cognates in other IE languages, to my knowledge).



The original meaning of liber is "tree bark". It has lots of cognates in IE, including English "leaf".


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## Gavril

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Many other words seem to be cognates and, I would agree with Roel~, that in some (rare?) cases the modern Celtic form seems to be closer to the original Latin than any other language, whether it is a loan or a cognate.
> 
> ex: (Br.): *deskiñ* (stem: *desk*-) : to learn = Cf. (Lat.) *discere* (stem: *disc*-) : to learn.
> 
> I am sure we could find a number of other examples.



There are many other examples of Welsh or another Celtic language preserving the hard _*c*-/*g-*_ sound of a Latin word, where most Romance languages haven't: Welsh _di*sg*ynnu_ "descend" < Lat. _de*sc*endere_, Welsh_ *c*wynos_ "supper" < Lat. _*c*ena_, Irish _*c*ill_ "church" < Latin _*c*ella_.

Celtic also has examples like W. _diwrnod_ "day" < Lat. _diurnatus_, (cf. French _jour_, It. _giorno_) where _di_-/_ti_- are preserved as such rather than becoming [ts]/[dz].


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## Walshie79

What about the days of the week? Welsh preserves the classical Latin much better than any Romance language here, 

Dydd Llun
Dydd Mawrth
Dydd Mercher
Dydd Iau
Dydd Gwener
Dydd Sadwrn
Dydd Sul 

Note the classical Latin word order (Dies Lunae not Lundi) as well as the preservation of Dies Saturnis and Solis, which the Romance languages replace with Sabado, Domingo and similar forms. Dydd Sul is particularly notable as Welsh for sun is "haul", here it's preserved the Latin s instead.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Please, keep in mind that it is not Welsh only; but all extant Brittonic languages that preserve those features:



*Welsh
**Breton
**Cornish
*Dydd LlunDilun
Dy' Lun
Dydd MawrthDimeurzh
Dy' Meurth
Dydd Mercher
Dimerc'her
Dy' Mergher
Dydd IauDiriaou
Dy' Yow
Dydd GwenerDigwener
Dy' Gwener
Dydd SadwrnDisadorn
Dy' Sadorn
Dydd Sul Disul
Dy' Sul


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## bearded

To Roel
If you consider that in the Romance languages nouns are mostly derived from Latin accusatives, in the case of 'book' it seems to me that the Italian _libro_ preserves the original _librum_ better than the Celtic corresponding words, as both the b consonant and the final -u(m) sound (closed o) are respected.


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## Forero

Walshie79 said:


> What about the days of the week? Welsh preserves the classical Latin much better than any Romance language here,
> 
> Dydd Llun
> Dydd Mawrth
> Dydd Mercher
> Dydd Iau
> Dydd Gwener
> Dydd Sadwrn
> Dydd Sul
> 
> Note the classical Latin word order (Dies Lunae not Lundi) as well as the preservation of Dies Saturnis and Solis, which the Romance languages replace with Sabado, Domingo and similar forms. Dydd Sul is particularly notable as Welsh for sun is "haul", here it's preserved the Latin s instead.


Days of the week in Catalan (a Romance language): dilluns, dimarts, dimecres, dijous, divendres, dissabte, diumenge


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## Nino83

The Latin word _poena_ is _pena_ in Italian. 
The Latin word for _God_ is _Deus_. 
_Cane__(m)_ and _libru(m)_ are very similar to _cane_ and _libro_. 
Italian is the closest language (being the most conservative) to Classical and Vulgar Latin. 

Hope it helps 

Ciao


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## fdb

Nino83 said:


> Italian is the closest language (being the most conservative) to Classical and Vulgar Latin.



Italian and Spanish are probably the most conservative Romance languages from the viewpoint of phonology. Form the viewpoint of morphology, Romanian has preserved a number of archaic features lost in other Romance languages (three genders; separate case forms for nouns; etc.)


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## Copperknickers

Celtic languages didn't go through the same sound changes as Romance languages, so its natural many of the loanwords and cognates would be more similar to Latin.


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## Nino83

fdb said:


> Italian and Spanish are probably the most conservative Romance languages from the viewpoint of phonology. Form the viewpoint of morphology, Romanian has preserved a number of archaic features lost in other Romance languages (three genders; separate case forms for nouns; etc.)



Phonological stability influences morphological stability. 
The preservation of the neuter gender or case system is more a grammatical matter than a morphological one (being, for example, neuter declension very similar to the masculine one and identical in singular accusative case), so the lost of the neuter gender didn't lead to morphological changes. Es. Cathedraticu(m) --> cattedratico. 

P.S. 
With the loss of final _m_ in early Vulgar Latin, there's no difference between neuter and masculine (except in plural N-A-V cases).


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