# Arabic غ vs. French r



## cherine

Split from here.

One quick, off-topic, note : the sound ghayn غ is like the French "r". I only noticed this when a French friend of mine transliterated some words she had learned with the "r". First I thought she got them wrong, then I got the reason why she used the "r" to transliterate the sound غ .


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## Qcumber

One can successfuly pass for the other, but they are different.

In _The Handbook of the International Phonetic Association_ (Cambridge, UK, 1999), the French <r> is represented by a capital R upside down (voiced uvular fricative), whereas the Arabic ghain is represented by a gamma (voiced velar fricative).


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## DrLindenbrock

Yeah, I agree more with this explanation of ghayn... I speak French and must say that I hear the difference.
I think much can be explained by how we transliterate sounds.
kh خ
k ك
gh غ
g (no equivalent in MSA, unless we consider Egyptian ج)

So, the H is generally used to mean that khaaf is a "fricative kaaf" and that ghayn is a fricative G sound . I know this is not a technical and scientific way of describing the facts, but nevertheless I think it makes sense.

By the way, we could compare this with Hebrew, where ג (gimel) used to stand both for fricative and plosive voiced velar (roughly speaking, /gh/ and /g/) and כ (kaf) represents both fricative and plosive voiceless velar.
Enjoy posting


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## Tajabone

As a French native (yes, I contain multitude  ), I can say that the two sounds are different. You can easily distinguish a Berber or Arabic-speaking learner of French through that sound among others (though many come to do it in the French way (Ile-de-France/ centre) ).

 Confusing the two sounds would give what we hear with some Isrealis when they speak English (using a ghayn)


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## Nunty

I am an Israeli, and I am _delighted_ to learn that my _resh_ resembles a _ghayn_, but all the same I think there is a difference.

I speak Hebrew and (American) English as native languages, and French is presently my language of daily life. I notice that when my French-speaking sisters want to pronounce a _h__et _or a _k__af_ they substitute an _r_. But when I am speaking French -- I freely admit that my accent is absymal -- I find that I have to make my _resh_ more guttural for it to resemble a French _r_.

All that to ask, for those who have a basis of comparison, which is more like a _ghayn_: an Israeli _resh_ or a French _r_? (For the time being, I'm pronouncing it like _resh_.)


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## HKK

Qcumber's reference to the IPA handbook indicated that the french R is deeper, more guttural than ghayn (uvular is deeper than velar). Since you say it is also more guttural than resh, we might conclude that resh is either in between or (probably) similar to ghayn.


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> All that to ask, for those who have a basis of comparison, which is more like a _ghayn_: an Israeli _resh_ or a French _r_?


 To me, they all sound pretty much the same - or, more specifically, both of those sound to me more or less like an Arabic غ, which is what I pronounce them like.  

I don't doubt that each of them is distinct (and the German _r_, too, which I also pronounce like a غ), but honestly, I think that unless you're seeking absolute perfection in your pronunciation it's nothing worth losing sleep over.  There are more formidable obstacles (ع et alia) to overcome.


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## Anatoli

Being of Russian origin, I have different association of the Arabic ghayn (غ), it sounds to me like Ukrainian Г, which in standard Russian is pronounced as a hard G (get). The same sound exists in Belarusian, Czech and Slovak languages. I the last two it's rendered with the Roman letter H.

Ukrainian voiced glottal fricative ɦ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_phonology

See other languages where it is used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_glottal_fricative

To me this sound is very similar to the Arabic ghayn, especially in the position together with the Arabic ر, e.g. المغرب.


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## Jana337

Anatoli said:


> Being of Russian origin, I have different association of the Arabic ghayn (غ), it sounds to me like Ukrainian Г, which in standard Russian is pronounced as a hard G (get). The same sound exists in Belarusian, Czech and Slovak languages. I the last two it's rendered with the Roman letter H.


I cannot see any connection whatsoever between the ghayn and our G.


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## Tajabone

My very dear Nun-Translator,

 As long as the sounds do not provoke a semantic confusion (like *غاب*  and *راب* ), one can go on speaking in the easiest way he can afford. 

 To me, I perceive clearly the distinction between Arabic/Hebrew (ghayn and resh) and the French (Ile-de-France) R (which is never the same all over France  ).

 Moreover, one should notice that it's not the sound alone which is to be considered but the phonetic change that occurs in a linguistic prodution (mainly words but also sentences). In fact, a sound is not always the same in a phonetic environment.

 And I'm sure that I would perfectly understand what you could say in French and also in Arabic


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## Nunty

Well... in French maybe. 

I pronounce *ر *slightly rolled (trilled?) toward the front of my mouth, like an *r* in Latin, not at all like the *غ*, which is much farther back. Is that wrong?


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## Tajabone

Thanks Anatoli for the precious details.

Here is a very important concept in phonology: Minimal pair. It helps to understand why some soubds (considered with an other one) is "significative" while others are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_pair

 Bye !


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## Tajabone

Nun-Translator said:


> I pronounce *ر *slightly rolled (trilled?) toward the front of my mouth, like an *r* in Latin, not at all like the *غ*, which is much farther back. Is that wrong?


That's surely good and efficient to distinguish the two sounds.


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## Qcumber

Nun-Translator said:


> I am an Israeli, and I am _delighted_ to learn that my _resh_ resembles a _ghayn_, but all the same I think there is a difference.[...] I find that I have to make my _resh_ more guttural for it to resemble a French _r_.


From what you say, and from other contacts with Jews, I noticed Occidental Jews (Ashkenazi) pronounce Hebrew like Yiddish i.e. all the Semitic phonemes are eliminated, and only those also found in German are retained. As a consequence the Semitic phonemes are replaced by their German substitutes or become silent. 
The Classical Hebrew /r/ being pronounced like a French /r/ or a German /r/ is typical case of substitution.


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## Nunty

I would not  say we "pronounce Hebrew like Yiddish" (a sweeping and not entirely accurate statement), nor that "all the Semitic phonemes are eliminated" (ditto), but that is another thread. Actually, I have a feeling we've been there before.


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## Anatoli

Jana337 said:


> I cannot see any connection whatsoever between the ghayn and our G.


Not G but H.

I am not insisting they are identical but try pronouncing ghayn as Czech H, e.g.  in words Maghrib as Mahrib or Jughrafiyya as Juhrafiyya with Czech pronunciation.


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## Outsider

Here's a pertinent article, and a table with sounds.


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## Qcumber

I'm sorry, but Paul Meier doesn't pronounce the voiced laryngeal fricative (Arabic ain) correctly.


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## Ayazid

Anatoli said:


> Not G but H.
> 
> I am not insisting they are identical but try pronouncing ghayn as Czech H, e.g. in words Maghrib as Mahrib or Jughrafiyya as Juhrafiyya with Czech pronunciation.


 
Since I am a native speaker of Czech I did and don´t see any connection or similarity between them.


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## elroy

Ayazid said:


> Since I am a native speaker of Czech I did and don´t see any connection or similarity between them.


 I don't speak Czech, but I agree.  I think the Czech _h_ is like a soft خ.


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## francophone

IMO, it's not the same at all, an r in French is still an r, and depends on your accent, the Parisian r still doesn't sound like ghayn, kind of close but it's not the same sound.

As a simplification it works I guess. But it's not right.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Anatoli

elroy said:


> I don't speak Czech, but I agree.  I think the Czech _h_ is like a soft خ.



You are probably mixing it with the Polish H, Elias. (?) Czech H is the voiced version of CH. I know you know some Polish. Polish and Czech CH are identical and sound similar to Arabic خ. Polish doesn't have this sound and letter H is pronounced exactly as CH combination.

Czech/Slovak H has less frictions than Arabic غ but Parisian R seems an even less similar sound. Try pronouncing Parisian R + Italian R together غ + ر.

EDIT:

I found quite a few places where Russian teachers/learners of Arabic describe the sound غ (ghayn) with the Ukrainian "Г" (note: not Russian "Г"!). Since Ukrainian "Г" is identical to Czech and Slovak H. I used this camparison as well.


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## Arrius

Nobody seems to have pointed out that whereas the Arabic *غ (*ghayn) is used anywhere in a word, the French "R grasséyé" as in "la porte" is not used finally and the inital R as in the French pronunciation of "Rheims" for instance appears to be almost alveolar rather than guttural. I think the Arabic ghayn is closest to the Dutch G, which is more guttural than the German ach-laut as in "Bach"(stream or composer), and apparently unmentioned so far.  As can be seen from the examples,"geen" "vraag" "negen", "erg",  "daagt", all with the G pronounced the same way, it can like ghayn occur in various positions.


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## HKK

Arrius said:


> As can be seen from the examples,"geen" "vraag" "negen", "erg",  "daagt", all with the G pronounced the same way, it can like ghayn occur in various positions.



The g in these examples is unvoiced and thus more like kh than gh.

Only "geen" and "negen" may have a voiced g but in the Netherlands, the unvoiced g is much more popular.


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## elroy

Anatoli said:


> I found quite a few places where Russian teachers/learners of Arabic describe the sound غ (ghayn) with the Ukrainian "Г" (note: not Russian "Г"!). Since Ukrainian "Г" is identical to Czech and Slovak H. I used this camparison as well.


 You are right; I did confuse the Czech _h_ with the Polish _h_, but I am still unconvinced that the Czech _h_ is like the Arabic غ.  I talked to Jana about it and she told me that it is identical to the German (or English) _h_.


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## Anatoli

When I have a chance I'll make a recording. Czech H is not equvalent of English H, whic is the same as the Arabic haa' ه. The Czech/Slovak/Ukrainian/Belarusian one is distinctly more voiced and fricative.


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## francophone

The arabic ghayn is used anywhere in a word, in the middle, end, beginning.


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## Arrius

francophone said:


> The arabic ghayn is used anywhere in a word, in the middle, end, beginning.


 
Who said it wasn't? Certainly not me.  Salut.


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## Ayazid

francophone said:


> The arabic ghayn is used anywhere in a word, in the middle, end, beginning.


 
No, it isn´t. Certainly not here in the Czech republic  



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> I don't speak Czech, but I agree. I think the Czech _h_ is like a soft خ.


 
Actually, it´s identical with ه



			
				Anatoli said:
			
		

> When I have a chance I'll make a recording. Czech H is not equvalent of English H, whic is the same as the Arabic haa' ه. The Czech/Slovak/Ukrainian/Belarusian one is distinctly more voiced and fricative.


 
Anatoli

Strictly speaking, the Czech h is voiced glottal fricative and the English and Arabic h´s are voiceless glottal fricative, but difference between them is only very slight and in virtually all Arabic textbooks published here, the 2 sounds are considered to be identical (unlike our h and ح of course), more so in comparision with the arabic غ which is *completely different sound* (voiced uvular fricative).


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## Anatoli

Ayazid said:


> ...
> Anatoli
> 
> Strictly speaking, the Czech h is voiced glottal fricative and the English and Arabic h´s are voiceless glottal fricative, but difference between them is only very slight and in virtually all Arabic textbooks published here, the 2 sounds are considered to be identical (unlike our h and ح of course), more so in comparision with the arabic غ which is *completely different sound* (voiced uvular fricative).


Thanks, Ayazid.
Another term for the same sound is "voiced *velar* fricative":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ġayn


> It represents the voiced velar fricative (/ɣ/).


In the same article (see top) I don't quite understand the following:


> A voiced uvular fricative /ʁ/ (usually reconstructed for Proto-Semitic) merged with Ayin in most languages except for Arabic


So does Arabic have *voiced velar fricative*, *voiced uvular fricative* or both?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative

I am a bit unsure, since they use Egyptian Arabic, not MSA in the example.

There's also a reference to Czech "aby*ch* byl" where this sound appears, only I don't think it's the best example, since this sound is rendered with a Czech H and "CH"  becomes  "H"  only in front of another voiced consonant.

Sample sound of a voiced velar fricative, please confirm if it's the correct representation of the letter ghayn غ:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Voiced_velar_fricative.ogg

And here's the voiced uvular fricative:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Voiced_uvular_fricative.ogg

Note: My MP3 player is broken and unfortunately I can't provide the recordings I promised at the moment.


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## Talib

Anatoli said:


> So does Arabic have voiced velar fricative, voiced uvular fricative or both?
> I am a bit unsure, since they use Egyptian Arabic, not MSA in the example.


Depends on dialect, I think. In Classical Arabic, خ and غ were uvular. You'll notice the letters were formed from ح and ع, because uvular is the place of articulation right next to pharyngeal.

But in many dialects of modern Arabic, I believe the uvular fricatives have shifted forward to velar. I pronounce خ and غ this way myself because it contrasts better with ح and ع, and is also much easier to pronounce because English already has velar consonants but no uvulars.

So both are equally legitimate pronunciations, I think.



			
				Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> I pronounce *ر *slightly rolled (trilled?) toward the front of my mouth, like an *r* in Latin, not at all like the *غ*, which is much farther back. Is that wrong?


No, that's right.


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## clevermizo

I find myself able to produce the voiced uvular and velar spirants without much trouble distinguishing them, but I have also spent a lot of time training myself in phonetics. 

The basic difference is that the velar spirant (غ) is pronounced with the tongue slightly further forward in the mouth. That's all really. However, since Arabic fortunately does not contrast the two sounds within the language, nor French, we can use either one and be understood. 

Actually, I find the pronunciation of Arabic غ also very much like the Modern Greek pronunciation of the letter Γ (gamma). I believe it has had this [gh] sound for quite some time in recent history.


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## Mahaodeh

Darn me if I can tell the difference between an uvular ghain and a velar one!!!


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## Talib

Mahaodeh said:


> Darn me if I can tell the difference between an uvular ghain and a velar one!!!


A velar sounds sort of like an English G (or Egyptian ج). An uvular sounds more gutteral, closer to a ع.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> To me, they all sound pretty much the same - or, more specifically, both of those sound to me more or less like an Arabic غ, which is what I pronounce them like.
> 
> I don't doubt that each of them is distinct (and the German _r_, too, which I also pronounce like a غ), but honestly, I think that unless you're seeking absolute perfection in your pronunciation it's nothing worth losing sleep over. There are more formidable obstacles (ع et alia) to overcome.





Talib said:


> Mahaodeh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Darn me if I can tell the difference between an uvular ghain and a velar one!!!
> 
> 
> 
> A velar sounds sort of like an English G (or Egyptian ج). An uvular sounds more gutteral, closer to a ع.
Click to expand...

As a native German speaker I can assure you that I have no difficulty identifying غ as an "r", maybe a "light" one, but certainly within the range of free variation. I incidentally perceive the ع as a deep (emphatic) "r" (except when pronounced as a stop, of course).

Several European languages have the [ɣ] (i.e. Arabic غ) and the [ʁ] (i.e. French "r"): The Duch "g" (though many unvoice it to [x]) and the Greek "ɣ" except before front vowels are pronounced [ɣ]. The French, German, Danish and Portuguese "r" is pronounced [ʁ] (or its trilled variant [ʀ]). The difference between [ɣ] and [ʁ] is so minute that it is hard to image a language assigning phonemic significance to it. I am only aware of one exception and that is old Berlin dialect (until the early 20th century) which had the famous minimal pair "Augen" and "Ohren" pronounced [o:ɣən] and [o:ʁən], respectively. The two words were supposedly extremely difficult to distinguish. Today you can't tell it any more because even older dialect speakers pronounce "Augen" as [o:gən].


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## Ibn Nacer

cherine said:


> One quick, off-topic, note : the sound ghayn غ is like the French "r". I only noticed this when a French friend of mine transliterated some words she had learned with the "r". First I thought she got them wrong, then I got the reason why she used the "r" to transliterate the sound غ .



Bonsoir,

Personnellement je n'entends pas de différence entre les deux sons mais on ne retranscrit pas cette lettre avec un "r" mais plutôt avec "gh".


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## clevermizo

Ibn Nacer said:


> Personnellement je n'entends pas de différence entre les deux sons mais on ne retranscrit pas cette lettre avec un "r" mais plutôt avec "gh".



Vraiment vous n'entendez pas de différence entre la 'r' française et la de l'espagnol? (Parce que ça c'est basiquement le différence entre ر et غ.)


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## WadiH

Judging by the clips on Wikipedia, my غين is certainly uvular, not velar as Wikipedia would have us believe.


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## Ibn Nacer

clevermizo said:


> Vraiment vous n'entendez pas de différence entre la 'r' française et la de l'espagnol? (Parce que ça c'est basiquement le différence entre ر et غ.)



Si, il y a une grande différence entre ر et غ mais le son de la lettre غ est très proche du son du "r" français.

En français il n'y a pas de lettre qui corresponde au "ر", c'est un "r roulé".


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## clevermizo

Ok merci, j'ai mal compris la première fois.


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## berndf

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Judging by the clips on Wikipedia, my غين is certainly uvular, not velar as Wikipedia would have us believe.


These recordings of single sounds always sound a bit artificial. The first attached recording demonstrates how I as a native German native speaker pronounce the uvular "r". The text is meaningless but contains a lot of words starting with "r". Is this what you mean?

For comparison, the second recording contains the Greek word "Gamma", starting with a velar γ, pronounced to the best of my abilities as a Greek friend of mine taught me to pronounce it. (You have to ignore the short unvoiced start which is due to my own inability to say it naturally.)


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## Outsider

I agree that the difference between [ɣ] and [ʁ] is small (though aren't they distinct phonemes in Dutch?), but I think it's more noticeable between vowels than at the start of a word.

As for the other sounds, [ʀ] and [x] are nearly indistinguishable from [ʁ] to me. And yet in German I presume that [ʁ] (the standard _R_) is distinguished from [x] (the _ach-Laut_)...


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## berndf

Outsider said:


> I agree that the difference between [ɣ] and [ʁ] is small (though *aren't they distinct phonemes in Dutch?*), but I think it's more noticeable between vowels than at the start of a word.


Not in standard Dutch but there are variants where a phonemic contrast can occur. I once asked this question in the Dutch forum (click). If I understand the answers correctly, a reliable phonemic separation is only possible, if the uvular "r" is trilled (i.e. [ʀ] and not [ʁ]).



Outsider said:


> As for the other sounds, [ʀ] and [x] are nearly indistinguishable from [ʁ] to me. And yet in German I presume that [ʁ] (the standard _R_) is distinguished from [x] (the _ach-Laut_)...


This surprises me. [ʁ] (and [ʀ] for that matter) is voiced while [x~χ] is unvoiced. Distinction between voiced and unvoiced cononants is normally quite easy. Could it be that you were listening for the wrong trait to spot the difference between the two sounds? The _ach-Laut_ corresponds to Arabic ﺥ. I find it difficult to imagine that ﺥ and غ could be confused.


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## Outsider

Thanks for that link. I guess I can tell the difference between, say, the two sounds in the German words _A*ch*tung_ and _*R*aus_. But in Portuguese, where [ʁ] and [x] (or [χ]?) all exist as dialectal pronunciations of "rr", I never realised that they were different sounds until I read so. (To add to the confusion, supposedly another pronunciation of "rr", in Brazil, is as , but again I never noticed until this was pointed out to me.)


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## WadiH

The reason I can tell that my غين is uvular is because I produce it at the same location as the MSA قاف.  If it were velar, I would be producing it at the point where I produce the English [g] as in "go."

Am I correct in this?  This would explain why غين can turn into قاف and vice versa in some countries like Kuwait, Sudan and Yemen and among the Arabs of Iran.


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## berndf

Wadi Hanifa said:


> The reason I can tell that my غين is uvular is because I produce it at the same location as the MSA قاف. If it were velar, I would be producing it at the point where I produce the English [g] as in "go."
> 
> Am I correct in this?


Absolutely correct. If you pronounce غين like this it is definitely uvular.

I asked a friend who is both Arabic and German native speaker (he came as a small child from Damascus to Germany). He claims غين is *even* *further back* (sic!) than the German "r", i.e. he pronounces غين between the German "r" and ﻋﻴﻦ though closer to the former than to the latter.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> This would explain why غين can turn into قاف and vice versa in some countries like Kuwait, Sudan and Yemen and among the Arabs of Iran.


I once read that this was due to Persian influence for Kuwaiti, Iraqi and Iranian Arabic speakers. A uvular غين can turn into [G] which is a native sound in Persian and [q], the MSA realization of قاف, is the unvoiced counterpart of [G].


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## WadiH

berndf said:


> I once read that this was due to Persian influence for Kuwaiti, Iraqi and Iranian Arabic speakers. A uvular غين can turn into [G] which is a native sound in Persian and [q], the MSA realization of قاف, is the unvoiced counterpart of [G].


 
I seriously doubt that it is due to any Persian influence because that does not explain why this phenomenon occurs in places like Sudan and Yemen. In fact, it may have been common in previous generations here as well because my grandmother (who has never lived east of Riyadh) often pronounces her غين as [G] as well. Besides, Iraqi, Ahwazi and Kuwaiti dialects are relatively conservative dialects and it doesn't make sense that Persian pronunciation would influence their pronounciation of this one single consonant and not any other.


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## Serafín33

Qcumber said:


> In _The Handbook of the International Phonetic Association_  (Cambridge, UK, 1999), the French <r> is represented by a capital R  upside down (voiced uvular fricative), whereas the Arabic ghain is  represented by a gamma (voiced velar fricative).


I believe that there is simply some variation among Arabic speakers on  the pronunciation of their غين. Do you have access to the handbook? Does it say where the informant(s) is/are from?

I remember reading in an account of Arabic as spoken in Cairo (although  from the 1910s) and Beirut (from the 1970s) in IPA, that this phoneme is  pronounced in a velar position in the former and in a uvular position  in the latter.


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## Hemza

Wadi Hanifa said:


> This would explain why غين can turn into قاف and vice versa in some countries like Kuwait, Sudan and Yemen and among the Arabs of Iran.



This is also a feature of bedouin Maghrebi speeches. At least, in Mauritania, Morocco and Algeria (I don't know about Tunisia nor Libya), which make non bedouin speakers suffering to understand that "u*q*niya, *q*aaba, yeb*q*e" are actually "u*gh*niya, *gh*aaba, yeb*gh*e" (to rest/remain is said "yebga").


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