# EN: have been V-ing - present perfect continuous



## DOB_BY

I was wondering if anyone can explain how this english formation of passive with a present participle is replicated in French.

For example,

they have been playing outside
I have been reading a bit

and so on? I imagine you don't use the present participle but it's not an ordinary passive? I thought perhaps imperfect tense?

Thank you for your help! It will be interesting to see what everyone comes up with.


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## melu85

I don't think it's a passive at all, actually
It's the progressive form for "they have played".
the passive would be "have been played".


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## GEmatt

I think melu is spot on.  This is the present perfect progressive (cf. definition here) - nothing to do with passive.  The same page with definitions equates this with the French past imperfect.


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## Outsider

This is a tricky construction to translate into French, and the best way to convey it probably varies with the type of sentence. I must say that, in general, the imperfect seems like a poor way of translating it!

I would suggest:

They have been playing outside.
_Ils jouent au-dehors._

I have been reading a bit.
_Je suis en train de lire un peu._​


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## geostan

You cannot use the present tense to express this unless there is a time expression included, e.g.  Ils jouent dehors depuis un bon moment.

Unfortunately, the only possibility would seem to be the passé composé.


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## Outsider

How would you translate these two sentences using the _passé composé_?


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## geostan

J'ai joué dehors.
J'ai été en train de lire un peu.


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## GEmatt

There's a mode here that doesn't translate very readily, but in what way does the _passé composé_ capture the progressive aspect?

_Ils ont joué dehors_ is even less off the mark than, e.g. _Ils ont été jouer dehors_, isn't it?


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## geostan

There is no way that I know of that can be as specific as the English present perfect progressive, other than with a time expression. I know it's frustrating, but that's language.


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## Outsider

geostan said:


> J'ai joué dehors.
> J'ai été en train de lire un peu.


Those two sentences imply that you have finished playing/reading, which I believe is the opposite of the connotation the English construction has.


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## geostan

Only with a time expression such as "for ten minutes." Otherwise, they are completed actions, even though the progressive aspect of the actions is stressed.


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## itka

I agree with geostan.

We don't need in french to express the progressive aspect, except, as he said if you mention a special time expression.
I dare say we're not aware of this progressive aspect which mean nothing to us (just see our difficulties to use it in english !).

So, I'd translate :
they have been playing outside  _Ils ont joué (un moment) dehors_
I have been reading a bit   _J'ai un peu lu_ or _j'ai lu un petit moment

_Adding _"un moment"_ is a kind of time expression which give an idea of the progressive aspect.


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## jann

I don't see how the present perfect continuous can be translated by a passé composé in this context, because the present perfect aspect indicates actions that are not completed, or are still relevant in the present.  

"I have been reading a bit (understood: recently)" = _ces jours-ci je lis un peu.
_"They've been playing outside (understood: and they still are)" = _Ils jouent dehors (depuis...).
_"(With this beautiful weather we're having) they've been playing outside a lot" = _Avec ce beau temps qu'il nous fait, ils jouent souvent dehors.
_
For me, _J'ai un peu lu _and _Ils ont joué (un moment) dehors_ both indicate single events that have now finished --> I read for a bit, They played outside for a while.

Would it be helpful to make a very loose analogy?  I know it is not perfectly accurate, but maybe it will help.  In cases such as these, the relationship between the preterit and the present perfect aspect is similar in some ways to that between the _passé composé _and the _imparfait_.... except that you must think of it all from the framework of the present, instead of thinking about it from the framework of the past.


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## Outsider

I agree with Jann.


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## geostan

jann said:


> because the present perfect aspect indicates actions that are not completed, or are still relevant in the present.
> 
> But they are completed even if they are still relevant in the present.



Perhaps this will help.

A neighbour drops by to chat. He asks: What have you been doing?  The answer: I've been watering the lawn.  

Clearly the action of watering the lawn has been completed. Otherwise, the question would be irrelevant. As I see it, the only way to express this sequence is with the passé composé. This is an idiomatic peculiarity of English which is not translatable into French.

I realize it is unsatisfactory. I used to have trouble with this construction, but have just accepted it.


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## Outsider

geostan said:


> A neighbour drops by to chat. He asks: What have you been doing?  The answer: I've been watering the lawn.
> 
> Clearly the action of watering the lawn has been completed.


I disagree. It could have been merely interrupted.

As a matter of fact, I would say the present perfect continuous normally conveys more the idea of an interrupted or pending action, than of a concluded action.


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## geostan

It may have been interrupted, but it has still concluded. The passé composé may express an action that has ended, but that could be resumed.

The fact remains that to use the present means that a past action continues into the present, without interruption. Again the only time that I am aware of when a present may be used in such a construction is with the preposition depuis introducing a time expression (or equivalent).

As an aside, one occasionally finds the imperfect as an equivalent of the present perfect progressive.

Vous voilà enfin! Je vous attendais.   There you are at last! I've been waiting for you.


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## Outsider

geostan said:


> It may have been interrupted, but it has still concluded.


If it's interrupted, then it was never concluded.

The _passé composé_ is used for actions and events concluded in a past time, regardless of whether they may repeat after that.

The present perfect continuous refers to pending, ongoing or interrupted actions and events at or near the present, regardless of whether they will be resumed in the near future.



			
				geostan said:
			
		

> As an aside, one occasionally finds the imperfect as an equivalent of the present perfect progressive.
> 
> Vous voilà enfin! Je vous attendais. There you are at last! I've been waiting for you.


Yes, the imperfect _is_ a good choice in many cases, because it shares the "imperfective" (i.e. ongoing, not-yet-concluded) connotation of the present perfect continuous. For the same reason that you ordinarily cannot replace the _imparfait_ with the _passé composé_, the latter is usually a poor translation for the present perfect continuous.


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## Asr

hmm this is getting very confusing; I think DOB-BY knew it would be like that. 



Outsider said:


> The present perfect continuous refers to pending, ongoing or interrupted actions and events at or near the present, regardless of whether they will be resumed in the near future.
> .


 
But there is another aspect of Present perfect continous, where the action has totaly ended, and the effects of it are out there simply, or it is just still relevant as Jann put it. 

You might say: I didn't get any sleep; I have been studying all night.
or: Sorry can't give you a ride; I've been drinking. Right?

Would it be wrong to translate these using Passé Composé?

and I liked what Itka said about stressing the progressive in French. Looking forward to hearing more from you guys all... subtleties of a new language might be frustrating at times, but very amazing as well.


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## geostan

We'll just have to disagree on this. Itka, a native speaker, has already given his/her opinion. I would be interested in hearing from other native speakers on this thorny issue.


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## Outsider

Asr said:


> But there is another aspect of Present perfect continous, where the action has totaly ended, and the effects of it are out there simply, or it is just still relevant as Jann put it.
> 
> You might say: I didn't get any sleep; I have been studying all night.
> or: Sorry can't give you a ride; I've been drinking. Right?


As far as I know, the first sentence does not imply that you've already studied all you had to study. I can say "I've been studying all night" when I still have a lot more to study.

The second sentence may be one of the cases where the _passé composé_ would be an acceptable translation for the English construction ("J'ai bu"?), but in my opinion these are rare, overall.



geostan said:


> We'll just have to disagree on this. Itka, a native speaker, has already given his/her opinion. I would be interested in hearing from other native speakers on this thorny issue.


Itka is a native speaker of French, but not of English.

Jann, a native speaker of English, "has already given his/her opinion", too.


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## geostan

Well, I'm a native speaker of English as well, but that does not help when trying to determine what the French would say in this case. The French present tense, as I see it, cannot reach back into the past unless it has a time expression to show when the action began. That is why I would not use the present tense here.

Grevisse in my rather old edition of Le Bon Usage says this about the passé composé:

Le *passé composé* indique un fait achevé à une époque déterminée ou indétermnée du passé et que l'on considère comme étant en contact ave le présent, soit que ce fait ait eu lieu dans une période de temps non entièrement écoulée ou que ses conséquences soient envisagées dans le présent.

I think that the examples examined in this thread would correspond to this definition.


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## jann

Part of the difficulty in all this is that we can use the present perfect aspect for several different reasons and in several different types of situations in English.  I suspect that it cannot be universally translated by any one French tense. 

I like the "watering the lawn" example you gave above, geostan.  Let's elaborate on it to see if it helps us find any patterns in French tense choice.


			
				geostan said:
			
		

> A neighbour drops by to chat.
> He asks: What have you been doing?
> The answer: I've been watering the lawn.


The question is ambiguous, because the time frame to which it refers will be contextual.  It might mean, "What have you been doing this afternoon?" or "What have you been doing recently?" or "What have you been doing this week?"  

--> Now *if the neighbors spoke to each other this morning*, and this is their 2nd interaction of the day, it will be obvious to them both that the question "....doing (this afternoon, these last few hours)?" is implied.  Consequently the 2nd neighbor will reply with a specific reference to his activities since their previous conversation a few hours before.  For example, "I've been watering the lawn." "I took the kids to soccer, and since then I've been watering the lawn. I just need to move the sprinkler one more time."  etc.

-->  But *if they have not spoken recently*, then the 2nd neighbor may choose to interpret the question the way he wants to.  If he is feeling talkative, he might then say "I've been working on a ton of projects here at home!" thus leaving an opening to discuss these projects.  If he is feeling less communicative, he will say something like "Oh, I've been really busy at work".  Both of these answers convey an activity that has occupied him for some time, and still occupies him (though he may not be actively working on it as he speaks)... and both imply that he has interpreted the question as "...doing (recently, this week)?"  Finally, if neighbor 2 wants neighbor 1 to mind his own business, neighbor 2 will deliberately interpret the question as "...doing (today, these last few hours)?" and reply with an boring statement of recent fact, such as "I've been watering the lawn."

So, native French speakers, what would neighbor 1 ask neighbor 2... and how would neighbor 2 reply?  Would they use different tenses depending on what they wanted to imply?  Is there a single tense that neighbor 1 could use in his question in order to leave it deliberately ambiguous, thus inviting neighbor 2 to answer the way he wants to?


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## itka

Well... I come just now and I'm at a lost !

jann is right. I just didn't notice that _for you_ (english speakers !) the action is still performing when you say :
"I have been reading a bit" what I would translate as : "je suis en train de lire" (a bit ??? weird to translate it with "un peu" here, maybe "un moment"...) or "je lis".

But jann, if you say, as you did :  _"I have been reading a bit_ (understood: *recently*)" then the passé composé would be possible !

From all your very interessant explanations, I conclude for myself, that this tense can be translated as well with (or by ?) the present tense, if the verb is still performing or with passé composé like here :
_ "I didn't get any sleep; I have been studying all night._" ---> "_je n'ai pas dormi du tout, j'ai travaillé toute la nuit_". It doesn't mean my work is over !  It just explain how I spent my last night... and it's clear, if I say such a sentence, the night is over.

I think, the important fact to remember is that in french this progressive aspect is not relevant. 
YOU only have to check what is going on now (at the moment when you speak) : still going on ---> présent or imparfait, over ---> passé composé,

...and WE (poor people) have to try to _guess_ what would be the best way...

May I give you my small stuff ? It is not scientific at all, but it often works : listen the mistakes other people do when they try to speak your own language, you can be sure that's the right way you have to speak in their language...

I apologize for joking a little, but I'm afraid I'll never find useful rules for this question... Too difficult for me !

.................

jann I just saw your post and your questions. I need a moment to think before answering to be sure I understood correctly !


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## Outsider

geostan said:


> Grevisse in my rather old edition of Le Bon Usage says this about the passé composé:
> 
> Le *passé composé* indique un fait achevé à une époque déterminée ou indétermnée du passé et que l'on considère comme étant en contact ave le présent, soit que ce fait ait eu lieu dans une période de temps non entièrement écoulée ou que ses conséquences soient envisagées dans le présent.
> 
> I think that the examples examined in this thread would correspond to this definition.


And would you say that that definition coincides with the definition of the English present perfect *continuous*?

Going back to an earlier example, suppose it's daybreak, a friend calls you and you say:

"I've been studying all night! I've only just stopped, to leave for school."​
In this case the act of studying is finished, and in French you could use the passé composé to translate the sentence:

"J'*ai étudié* pendant toute la nuit ! Je viens juste d'arrêter, pour sortir pour l'école."​
But now suppose another friend phoned you in the middle of the night, while you were studying, and you said:

"I don't have the time to talk to you right now. I've been studying all night!"​
In this case the act of studying is not over yet, and, in my opinion, you could not translate the verb with the _passé composé_. I would suggest instead:

"Je n'ai pas de temps pour parler avec toi maintenant. J'*étudie* dès le début de la nuit !"​


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## Maître Capello

jann said:


> Part of the difficulty in all this is that we can use the present perfect aspect for several different reasons and in several different types of situations in English. I suspect that it cannot be universally translated by any one French tense.


 I'd further say that it's unfortunately the same for most French tenses: they cannot be universally translated with any of the English tenses.


> So, native French speakers, what would neighbor 1 ask neighbor 2... and how would neighbor 2 reply? Would they use different tenses depending on what they wanted to imply? Is there a single tense that neighbor 1 could use in his question in order to leave it deliberately ambiguous, thus inviting neighbor 2 to answer the way he wants to?


The thing is, you cannot accurately translate _What have you been doing?_ into French without adding some time-frame information. In other words, the question in French cannot be ambiguous. (Well, I should rather say that I haven't found a way to ask such an ambiguous question in French.)

_Qu'est-ce que tu étais en train de faire ?_ (implied: before I interrupted you)
_Qu'est-ce que tu as fait cette semaine ?
Qu'est-ce que tu as fait depuis que nous nous sommes vus tout à l'heure ?_

Note that just _Qu'est-ce que tu as fait ?_ doesn't make sense in the given context and neighbor #2 wouldn't know how to answer that one.



Outsider said:


> And would you say that that definition coincides with the definition of the English present perfect *continuous*?


The present perfect (simple or continuous) and passé composé are indeed *similar* but they *don't coincide*.



> Going back to an earlier example, suppose it's daybreak, a friend calls you and you say: "I've been studying all night! I've only just stopped, to leave for school." In this case the act of studying is finished, and in French you could use the passé composé to translate the sentence: "J'*ai étudié* pendant toute la nuit ! Je viens juste d'arrêter, pour sortir pour l'école."
> 
> But now suppose another friend phoned you in the middle of the night, while you were studying, and you said: "I don't have the time to talk to you right now. I've been studying all night!" In this case the act of studying is not over yet, and, in my opinion, you could not translate the verb with the _passé composé_. I would suggest instead: "Je n'ai pas de temps pour parler avec toi maintenant. J'*étudie*dèsdepuis le début de la nuit !"


Your first example is fine but your second one sounds weird to me in English—it seems odd to say *in the middle of the night* that you've been studying *all night*… I would rather say, e.g., _since 10 pm_… Anyway, the tense would definitely be the present in French whether or not you intend to continue studying.


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## L'Inconnu

DOB_BY said:


> they have been playing outside
> I have been reading a bit
> 
> and so on? I imagine you don't use the present participle but it's not an ordinary passive? I thought perhaps imperfect tense?



You ask yourself one important question: Are they still playing yes or no?

  “The back yard is a mess. What happened?” “They’ve been playing outside.”

  In this case, the answer is probably no. So you say

  “Ils ont joué au dehors”

  Why is it that the answer is probably “no”? Because, if they were still playing, you would have said “They’re playing outside”. “Ils jouent au dehors”. But, then again, if they are still playing, you might have said:

  “They’ve been playing outside since the crack of dawn.”
  “Ils jouent au dehors depuis au lever du jour/soleil."

  When you use _depuis_ you refer to a specific time when the action began, or to a specific duration of time in which the action has been going on.

  “They have been playing outside for an hour now”
  “Il jouent au dehors depuis une heure.”



  I find it curious that we could also have answered the same question by saying:

  “They were playing outside”. That is, in the case where they are no longer playing.

  In this case, could we say “Ils jouaient au dehors”?


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## Maître Capello

L'Inconnu said:


> I find it curious that we could also have answered the same question by saying: “They were playing outside”. That is, in the case where they are no longer playing.


There is however a big difference between _They've been playing outside_ and _They were playing outside—_the latter is a mere *description* of what happened whereas the former gives a *reason* for the mess, which is *still visible now*, whence the more logical use of the present perfect tense.



> In this case, could we say “Ils jouaient au dehors”?


No, we would still use the passé composé to answer the question. However we translate the past continuous by the imparfait if the verb is opposed to something that happened during that description, e.g.:

_They *were playing* outside when it started raining.
Ils *jouaient *dehors quand il se mit à pleuvoir.
_


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