# kefir v. yogurt



## albondiga

Hi all,

I've encoutered both *kefir *and *yogurt *(sorry for lack of Cyrillic script) used as the Russian word for "yogurt"... are these words interchangeable in Russian, or do they refer do different substances?

Thanks!


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## Setwale_Charm

Yes and no. Semantically, kefir is yogurt, but it is rather the Russian or Asian type. Kef*i*r was the Soviet-time yoghurt which is more sour, it is without any additives, like fruit, or flavour, it is more "homogenous" without any pieces of fruit or nuts (although with natural lumps often).
I personally prefer that to yoghurt. 
The latter was borrowed in the recent years from the West so it continues to carry the Western name though it is the same thing in principle and it is made with adding fruit, with various flavours and is considered more "fun" while the traditional kefir was considered more of healthy food stuff which children nornally hate.


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## albondiga

Thanks, Setwale!


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## Maroseika

albondiga said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've encoutered both *kefir *and *yogurt *(sorry for lack of Cyrillic script) used as the Russian word for "yogurt"... are these words interchangeable in Russian, or do they refer do different substances?


Absolutely no, these are two quite different products.
Main difference consists in the character of fermentation: yogurt is a result of only lactic acid fermentation, while kefir - of the spirit fermentation as well, and contents up to 1% of spiritus plus carbonic acid.
To the taste kefir is sourer than yogurt, kefirs differ in the time of ageing -1,2 or 3 days, the latter is the "strongest". 
However in fact yogurts are sourer than kefirs, but their acidity is concealed by fruit additions. That's why kefir, acting more sparely, is better for children and sick people.
Another distinction from the yogurt - type of the fermentating agent: kefir is fermentated with the fingus consisting of the lactic acid streptococcus and yeast, while for the yogurt they use Bulgarian bacillus and thermophile lactic acid streptococcus.
And the last diffference: kefir is produced from the whole or even degreased milk, and yogurt - only of fat milk (6%), i.e. in fact - from milk with addition of cream.
Besides kefir, there are two other Russian products more similar to yougurt: ряженка - *ryazhenka *and простокваша - *prostokvasha*. Prostokvasha is produced from the degreased milk and ryazhenka - from the baked milk. 
There is a modern sort of prostokvasha - *acidophlin*, differeing from it with the type of fermentator - acidophilic bacillus.
There is also a sort of ryazhenka, *varenetz,* differring from it with the absense of crime in the milk, and less fattiness.


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## Vladislav

Completely different, as Maroseika says.

 Kefir is a drink: http://images.google.ru/images?hl=ru&newwindow=1&q=%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%80&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

 Yogurt is a food, is what you undestand by "yog(h)urt". Is what you eat with a spoon.


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## albondiga

Interesting, thanks everyone!


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## Darina

Don't you actually have a Russian word meaning yogurt?


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## Maroseika

Darina said:


> Don't you actually have a Russian word meaning yogurt?


Yes, we have, but this is very recent loan from English.


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## Darina

Maroseika said:


> Yes, we have, but this is very recent loan from English.


 
And how do you call the yogurt if you try to avoid Endlish loans?


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## Maroseika

Darina said:


> And how do you call the yogurt if you try to avoid Endlish loans?


You see, what we call yogurt now was never produced in USSR or Russia, like I've explained below.
What we call yogurt nowadays is a substance, often with fruits, in small plastic jars, there is also drinkable yougurt, also usually with fruits; and all our old drinks, such as ryazhenka, kefir, prostokvasha, atsidofilin are produced in quite another package, they have quite another consistence and taste, nobody can confuse yogurt with anything of it, and finally we don't have any own word in Russian for yougurt. 
Thus - no need to avoid English loan.


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## natasha2000

kefir and yogurt are two different things and they also have different taste. I find kefir a little bit stronger than yogurt, but I also like it very much!
In Serbian we also distinguish kefir and yogurt. We also have the third name for the third fermented milk product - kiselo mleko.

As a matter of fact, kiselo mleko is what in other countries is called yogurt, when you make it liquid, then it is yoghurt.

BTW - yoghurt is NOT English word, but Turkish. So, if Russian has the word yoghurt, it is loan from Turkish and not form English.

What's smetana?


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## natasha2000

One thing more. Yoghurt does not necessarily have fruits. There is natural yoghurt, with no additives, and it is also sour. I also wouldn't call it food.


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## Vladislav

Smetana? One of the best products in my opinion.   You can eat it directly or add it to some other products (very good with pelmeni).

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сметана

http://images.google.ru/images?hl=ru&q=сметана&btnG=Поиск+картинок&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi


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## Maroseika

natasha2000 said:


> In Serbian we also distinguish kefir and yogurt. We also have the third name for the third fermented milk product - kiselo mleko.
> Is this kiselo mleko the same product as prostokvasha from one of my previous descripions (below)?
> 
> 
> natasha2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, kiselo mleko is what in other countries is called yogurt, when you make it liquid, then it is yoghurt.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure.
> Prostokvasha was the most widespread product, because you can obtain it directly from the milk (souring). Therefore prostokvasha or sour milk should have been known by each and every people in the world.
> However, yougurt - is not just a sour milk, because to make it you need very special souring bacilla. So people may call ANY sour milk yogurt only thru misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> natasha2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW - yoghurt is NOT English word, but Turkish. So, if Russian has the word yoghurt, it is loan from Turkish and not form English.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure, yogurt is Turkish. But to Russian it came from English or German or French, I don't remember which was the first yogurt imported here.
> That's why in Russian yogurt is not Turkish loan.
> 
> 
> natasha2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's smetana?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is a sour product made of cream, fermentated by pepsin and/or rennet ferment.
> Fattiness - 10-48%.
Click to expand...


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## natasha2000

Vladislav said:


> Smetana? One of the best products in my opinion.  You can eat it directly or add it to some other products (very good with pelmeni).
> 
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0
> 
> http://images.google.ru/images?hl=ru&q=сметана&btnG=Поиск+картинок&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi


 
OK, now I know. Since in English article it mentions Croatian VRHNJE, then I know wnat it is. We call it PAVLAKA. I like it very much! In Spain, they call this yogur griego - greek yogur.



Maroseika said:


> Is this kiselo mleko the same product as prostokvasha from one of my previous descripions (below)?
> 
> I'm not sure.
> Prostokvasha was the most widespread product, because you can obtain it directly from the milk (souring). Therefore prostokvasha or sour milk should have been known by each and every people in the world.
> However, yougurt - is not just a sour milk, because to make it you need very special souring bacilla. So people may call ANY sour milk yogurt only thru misunderstanding.


 
I wouldn't know what prostokvasha is, but in Serbia, kiselo mleko is made by simple fermenting of the milk. I remember we ourselves made it sometimes, by boiling the milk, and putting a some "smetana" or just already made yogur or kiselo mleko in it, and put it in a warm place. The next day we get kiselo mleko. And if you stir it, you get yogurt. Of course, in Serbia there are a lot of brands of yoghyurt and kiselo mleko, and they all differ a little bit among themselves in taste, depending on the way of making of that particular manufacturer. I personally like more dense than liquid and not too sour taste. And apart of these there are fruit youghurts. 

But, I am sorry for interrupting here. I just realized the quiestion was made for Russian.


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## Maroseika

natasha2000 said:


> OK, now I know. Since in English article it mentions Croatian VRHNJE, then I know wnat it is. We call it PAVLAKA. I like it very much! In Spain, they call this yogur griego - greek yogur.


Are you sure? Then what's *crema agria?*


natasha2000 said:


> I wouldn't know what prostokvasha is, but in Serbia, kiselo mleko is made by simple fermenting of the milk.


Then kiselo mleko is really prostokvasha, litereally prostaya kvasha, i.e. simple sour. 


natasha2000 said:


> I remember we ourselves made it sometimes, by boiling the milk, and putting a some "smetana" or just already made yogur or kiselo mleko in it, and put it in a warm place. The next day we get kiselo mleko. And if you stir it, you get yogurt.


Sorry, but will it really be yougurt then? I guess it will be curds. I frequently made it more or less like you described, namely boil milk and kefirt 2/1 = some black bread, cool and let whey stream down thru the gauze.
But it seems to me that's not yogurt by no means, because nor you nor me use special yogurt bacilla here.


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## natasha2000

Maroseika said:


> Are you sure? Then what's *crema agria?*


It's the same. Yogur griego is commertial name. It sells better if it has some unusual name.  




> Sorry, but will it really be yougurt then? I guess it will be curds. I frequently made it more or less like you described, namely boil milk and kefirt 2/1 = some black bread, cool and let whey stream down thru the gauze.
> But it seems to me that's not yogurt by no means, because nor you nor me use special yogurt bacilla here


 
As I said, I described what we call yougurt. I assure you any industrially made yougurt has better taste than the one I made, and foru sure I do not use any bread to make it. Maybe some others use, I don't know, I am not an expert on makin yogurts . In Serbia, the difference between yougurt and kiselo mleko is made not in a way it is made, but in its aspect. If you can eat it with a spoon, then it's kiselo mleko. If it is liquid, then it is yogurt. And there are many different kinds of yougurts. Some are delicious, some are awful. Personally, as I alaredy said, I prefer mild taste and more dense. But there are also more lquid and more sour, which are, for me at least, awful.


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## Bonjour

If you add jam or smth of the kind to kefir, you'll get smth similar to yogurt

Yogurt is tastier (IMHO) kefir is more sour and nastier 

I woud neve drink kefir on its own (I would use it to make оладьи=small pancakes or to make fried chicken).....yogurt, on the other hand, is great! Love it 

you can make kefir by letting milk rot in the fridge....


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## natasha2000

Kefir with chicken? Or with fruit??? 

I like kefir very much, at least the one I used to dring in Serbia or this one that now I can buy in Healthy food shops here in Spain... It has a little bit stronger taste, but that is the point. I usually drink the whole bottle (1/2 liter) without anything added. Just to calm thirst.


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## natasha2000

Bonjour said:


> you can make kefir by letting milk rot in the fridge....


 
This is not true and you know it.... You're exaggerating a little bit..


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## Maroseika

Bonjour said:


> you can make kefir by letting milk rot in the fridge....


No, never. You'd need special bacilli and warm, not chill.


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## heidita

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9fir

I have come across this curious thread. Kefir used to be commercialized in Spain as a sort of sponge which fermented in milk. 

I don't see the relationship to yogurt at all. But appearantly it is not only made with this "sponge"?

Actually this Kefir sponge has desappeared from Madrid at least.


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## Maroseika

heidita said:


> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9fir
> 
> I have come across this curious thread. Kefir used to be commercialized in Spain as a sort of sponge which fermented in milk.
> 
> I don't see the relationship to yogurt at all. But appearantly it is not only made with this "sponge"?
> 
> Actually this Kefir sponge has desappeared from Madrid at least.


Sponge - you mean fungus?

From that link:
Debido a que contiene cierto nivel bajo de alcohol, en Rusia es un remedio popular contra la resaca.
To say he truth, I have never heard of anything like that. Remedio habitual de antano es la salmuera de pepinos o col.


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## heidita

Maroseika said:


> Sponge - you mean fungus?


 
Yes, I suppose so, it looks to me like a natural sponge.


http://www.bayon.es/ampliaciones/310esponjanaturalgrande160-160.jpg

In the link before there is a photo of the actual Kefir fungus.


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## Maroseika

heidita said:


> Yes, I suppose so, it looks to me like a natural sponge.
> 
> 
> http://www.bayon.es/ampliaciones/310esponjanaturalgrande160-160.jpg
> 
> In the link before there is a photo of the actual Kefir fungus.


Anyways, I've never seen such "solid" kefir, like there in your site. Would be interesting to try...


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## heidita

Maroseika said:


> Anyways, I've never seen such "solid" kefir, like there in your site. Would be interesting to try...


I am really surprised at this . Don't you make Kefir, soaking the fungus, which I thought and in spain has always been called, Kefir in milk? The result looks like Yogurt and is similar in taste. I thought it was wonderful. What then do you actually call Kefir?

This was some time ago available in Madrid. It ws soaked in milk and both the result and the sort of sponge itself was called Kefir.


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## Maroseika

heidita said:


> What then do you actually call Kefir?


Heidita, please, look the message # 4 in this thread, there is description of kefir and features distinguishing it from yogurths and other sour products.
As far as I understand our Kefir is soemthing like Smanish kefir-in-milk, i.e. non-fat milk soured by special bacillus.


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## Anatoli

I miss kefir in Australia, which is quite expensive here. It's very healthy and tasty. I can't be bothered to make it myself, we did try, couldn't get exactly the same taste.

Back in Russia, I worked as an English-Russian interpreter with a financial adviser from IMF, he literally bought boxes of kefir every day and said he wondered why this product wasn't well-known in the West. He loved kefir more than I did.


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## Hutschi

In Germany, we have both kefir and yoghurt, too, they are different products, both are made from milk, but with very different procedures. 

I made kefir at home. The "sponge" is a kind of fungus with a special bacillus. It ferments the lactose and causes a very small amount of alcohol in the kefir. 

When I go into the shops, they have much more yoghurt than kefir.


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## Bonjour

well, a bit


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## anglii

Hello all,

15 years ago when I lived in Vienna, a friend had a so called kefir "sponge".  She made wonderful tasting smoothies with this kefir. She obtained it from a local farmers market.

Since then I've hoped to find one with no such luck. Does anyone have such a sponge or know where I may get one?

I've tried the kefir cultures (starter kits) and what results does not taste anywhere near as good and they are quite expensive. The sponge on the other hand can be used over and over again. Her's eventually died because it wasn’t maintained properly in fresh milk.


Also, I was told that there may be a problem with possible food poisoning from the sponges as apposed to the cultures.

Still, I would love to have such a sponge.

Thank you in advance for your assistance


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## Maja

Maroseika said:


> I'm not sure.
> Prostokvasha was the most widespread product, because you can obtain it directly from the milk (souring). Therefore prostokvasha or sour milk should have been known by each and every people in the world.
> However, yougurt - is not just a sour milk, because to make it you need very special souring bacilla. So people may call ANY sour milk yogurt only thru misunderstanding.


 I agree. *Kiselo mleko*  has different taste then *jogurt* (it is more sour, hence the name) and it  is more dense. I even think it can be more easily made (I know some people who  were making "domestic" kiselo mleko, but no one who made any jogurt). 
So  kefir, jogurt, kiselo mleko  and pavlaka are four  different dairy products (although some SR-EN dictionaries translate kiselo  mleko as yogurt?!)! 
How they are made and which  bacteria is used for their making I really don't know (but I think links I've provided can help ).


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## wbross4reel

Differences between yogurt and kefir:

analagoatcompany.com/Earth%20Mother/yogurvskefir.htm



Let's clear up the mythology for good. Anyone interested in learning about Kefir visit this link: 

users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage


Peace and Love
-Will


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## Maroseika

wbross4reel said:


> Differences between yogurt and kefir:
> 
> analagoatcompany.com/Earth%20Mother/yogurvskefir.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Let's clear up the mythology for good. Anyone interested in learning about Kefir visit this link:
> 
> users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage
> 
> 
> Peace and Love
> -Will


I never thought chemical formula of kefir is so simple. It's real miracle, you know... We can easily make it from the propane... Maybe letting pass the gas from the gas stove through the milk? Or even water?


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## wbross4reel

My understanding at this point is that certain scientists and laymen alike have attempted to duplicate kefir grains from scratch. Thus far results have shown no promise.

At this point, with all accumulated knowledge of Kefir Grains the only way to duplicate grains is with grains gathered from the original "mother culture" itself with origins among the caucaucus mountain regions. Evidentally the origin of the grains themselves is steeped heavily amidst mixed stories and bouts of folklore. Some state the prophet Mohhamed had a hand in introducing them to the people of the region while others maintain the position that they were a direct gift from God, linking them to the biblical story of Moses and Manna during the desert trek.......the grains being the manna.

No one is going to deny that the Kefir grains themselves are absolutely amazing after looking into their history and benefits. And as far as miracles go, anyone delving into the topic and doing a bit of research on their own could easily come to similar conclusions that the whole subject is nothing short of a miracle. Keep up the research on the grains if you find yourself interested.....it may just get exciting!

I have actually been propagating my own Kefir Grains for about a month now. Transferring them from raw milk batches weekly creating my own Kefir and I must say I have noticed some benefits so far in energy level and overall health. I recommend this for anyone that has a small amount of time to devote to their health. It's quite the trade-off: Good health and a wonderful new friendship with ancient living organisms that have the capability to outlive the human race! I'm sure they are chock-ful of wonderful information if you get to know them! Just take good care of them.

P.S. 

read about the benefits obtained from consuming the grains themselves on Dom's website: 
users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html

And here is the link with information on possible origins: 
users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#gift-from-allah


Peace and Love,
Will


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## perevod

Can you make prostokvasha just by letting milk stay outside the fridge on a warm day? It smells "bad" to me and I would never drink it, but my wife, who is Russian, insists that it is called prostokvasha and is perfectly safe to drink, even healthy. Also, is there any difference between milk in the United States and Russia in terms of what happens when it naturally sours in this way?


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## wbross4reel

Prostokvasha from the way I understand it is identicle to what Americans would call clabbered milk. And yes, Prostokvasha, or clabbered milk is created simply by allowing milk to ferment naturally. Usually the milk is placed in a somewhat warmer and dark area (such as in a high cupboard).

It is different from Kefir in that Kefir is created using a specific clump (grain) of advanced bacteria. There wouldn't be any difference in the milk per say between countries. The difference would be found however, in the type of cow the milk comes from and the type of forage the cow grazes upon. Obviously better soil would translate to higher vitamin and mineral content in the milk. This may also effect the strains of bacteria as well.

One other factor to take into consideration is whether or not the milk has been heated and pasteurized. You would get quite a deficient product if you were to use the pasteurized equivalent of milk. The result would be that the milk would tend to putrify as opposed to souring naturally. Milk's inherent healthy composition is drastically skewed in the process of heating. This includes a major loss of vitamins, minerals, enzymes, fat soluble activators, antibodies and virtually all health-promoting bacteria.

One could simply add a culture to pasteurized milk, but you would still end up with something far short of the natural methods of cultivation. Simply locate local farmers that raise their cattle in a conscoius manner and purchase healthy raw milk.

Have a beautiful day,

William Ross


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## tkekte

I drank "healthy" non-pasteurized moo moo milk one time. After that I had diarrhea straight for 3 days.  Yay!


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## Q-cumber

*Maja*

I think Kiselo mleko should mean prostokvasha (простокваша). 


PS I like kefir very much and drink it every day.


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## tkekte

Without sugar?


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## Q-cumber

*tkekte*
If you ask me, I never add sugar to any drinks.  Yet my son prefers kefir with sugar.


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