# sofern man das nach einem Satz beurteilen kann



## vaibhavm

Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern man _*das *_nach einem Satz beurteilen kann...

What is the function of word _das _in this sentence?

vor sich hin #2


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## berndf

_Das_ refers back to the statement _Dein Deutsch ist gut_.


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## vaibhavm

berndf Thank you


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## elroy

Hm, I would say “das” stands for “deine Deutschkenntnisse” or “wie dein Deutsch aussieht.”


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## berndf

In this case it amounts to the same thing. These two replacement would be possible:

_...sofern man nach einem Satz beurteilen kann, ob dein Deutsch gut ist._
_...sofern man nach einem Satz beurteilen kann, wie gut dein Deutsch ist_.

My intuitive interpretation is 1. but I agree that 2. would be possible too. The message conveyed would be the same. 1 is the more obvious interpretation because it is very common in German to refer to entire statements as objects that can be referred to by pronouns or serve as NPs within larger sentences (the underlined text is a single subject NP: _Dass er gekommen war und außerdem noch seine Freundin mitbrachte, mit der er sich sonst nur im verborgenen traf_, _verwunderte mich_). Much more than in most other languages.


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> I would say “das” stands for “deine Deutschkenntnisse”  or “wie dein Deutsch aussieht. ”


_"_so,_ wie dein Deutsch aussieht"_ would stand for the whole sentence _"sofern man das nach einem Satz beurteilen kann", _IMHO.


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## anahiseri

schönes Beispiel für einen typisch deutschen Satz, berndf!


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## elroy

My point was that "das" stands for "your German level"* (whatever your German level is), not "that your German is good."**  "Das" is neutral.  Bernd, I agree that "*ob* dein Deutsch gut ist" fits but that's not "*dass* dein Deutsch gut ist."**  The former is neutral; the latter is not.

This is not about _the fact that_ German often refers to long clauses using a single "das"; it's about _what _"das" refers to in this case. 

*This is what I meant by "wie dein Deutsch aussieht" - but I see now that that was unidiomatic and confusing.  "Ob dein Deutsch gut ist" is better.
**Modified from the original "dein Deutsch ist gut" ("your German is good"), because the original would not fit syntactically.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> My point was that "das" stands for "your German level"* (whatever your German level is), not "that your German is good."**


I understood that and explained why this runs contrary to my intuition. The pronoun refers to the preceding statement *in its entirety* and whether it is true or false (either-or, no shades of grey or "levels") and not to anything contained within that phrase.


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## elroy

But your rewrite ("*ob* dein Deutsch gut ist") contradicts your purported disagreement with me.  So does this:


berndf said:


> whether it is true or false


 I agree that "das" refers to "*whether* the statement is true or false" (that's what I meant by "your German level," i.e. "*whether* your German level is good, bad, or something in between").  But that is not what the first part of the statement is saying.  It's saying "Your German *is* good."

There's a huge difference between, for example:

_Tell me *whether* your German is good.
Tell me *that* your German is good. _

I'm surprised I'm having to spell this out for you, Bernd.   This is an obvious and fundamental distinction.

This example might help clarify my position:

A. Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern man das nach einem Satz *beurteilen* kann.
B. Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern man das aufgrund eines Satzes *sagen* kann. 

I don't know if B is idiomatic, but hopefully my point can be successfully made anyway.

I don't think that the "das" in A and the "das" in B stand for the same thing.  The one in A stands for "*ob* dein Deutsch gut ist"; the one in B stands for "*dass* dein Deutsch gut ist."

Is "_beurteilen, dass_ dein Deutsch gut ist" even a licit construction?   It sounds wrong to me.


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## berndf

Not all differences that matter in _some_ respects also matter in _all_ respects.

The important thing *here* is that the pronoun refers to a statement and not to an object and _XXX beurteilen_ means *in this context* _evaluate to truth value of XXX_. And only propositions have truth values, not objects. That is why _das_ cannot refer to _Deutschkentnisse_ but only to the statement as a whole.

As I said, your interpretation is possible as well but it is not the obvious one.


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## elroy

We're talking past each other (again).

My "Deutschkenntnisse" was simply _shorthand_ for "ob dein Deutsch gut ist."  Which I've already made amply clear is what I meant.  That's even the interpretation you yourself subscribed to in #5.  So we agree on what the interpretation is.

What I don't agree with is that this is the same thing as the first part of the sentence.  It's not.  The antecedent of "das" is implicit; it's not explicitly stated in the sentence.  You have presented no arguments against this.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> We're talking past each other (again).


Yes, because you are hooked on a distinction (_ob_ vs. _dass_) that doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if _das_ refers to a statement or an object. Both conjunctions introduce statements that function as objects within the main clause. Which of the two conjunctions you use depends on the semantics of the verb: _sagen, behaupten, bezweifeln, ..._ require _dass_; _entscheiden, bewerten, beurteilen _require _ob_.


elroy said:


> The antecedent of "das" is implicit


No, absolutely not.


elroy said:


> You have presented no arguments against this.


Of course I did. Read what I said to arrive at the conclusion:


berndf said:


> That is why _das_ cannot refer to _Deutschkentnisse_ but only to the statement as a whole


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> _Das_ refers back to the statement _Dein Deutsch ist gut_.


I agree with berndf.
"Deutschkenntnisse" and "dein Deutsch ist gut" amount to the same thing - for me, too (in this context).

"Deutschkenntnisse" implies here "gute" for me > "so, wie dein Deutsch aussieht" _(elroy) _ hast du  wohl gute Deutschkenntnisse.


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## elroy

“Dass” vs. “ob” matters *a lot* because the *meaning* is different.  I’m talking about what “das” represents _semantically_, which I’ve tried to word in different ways.  

The first part of the sentence is “Dein Deutsch ist gut,” which is _semantically_ different from “ob dein Deutsch gut ist.”  Therefore, the former is not what “das” represents semantically.  It represents “ob dein Deutsch gut ist,” which is *not* expressed explicitly in the sentence.

I don’t care whether the semantic value of what “das” represents is expressed using a word, a phrase, or whatever.  Semantics doesn’t care about that.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I’m talking about what “das” represents _semantically_,


Yes, it refers (syntactically *and* semantically) to the assertion _Dein Deutsch is gut_.

I said that both interpretations (that of my #2 and that of your #4) are semantically possible but that this semantic distinction is pragmatically all but irrelevant.

I also said that my interpretation is more obvious (to a native speaker, of course) and therefore dominates your interpretation because:

It flows well in German.
It does not require assuming any "implicit" referent.


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## JClaudeK

Semantisch verstehe ich den gegebenen Satz so: 
X hat den Eindruck, dass Ys Deutsch gut ist, fragt sich aber, ob man *das *(dass Ys Deutsch gut ist) anhand eines einzigen Satzes beurteilen kann.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Semantisch verstehe ich den gegebenen Satz so:
> X hat den Eindruck, dass Ys Deutsch gut ist, fragt sich aber, ob man *das *(dass Ys Deutsch gut ist) anhand eines einzigen Satzes beurteilen kann.


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## elroy

Is “beurteilen, dass dein Deutsch gut ist” correct German?


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## Syzygy

I feel the _das_ does not directly refer to the statement in the main clause but I would interpret it like the _das_ in "_Diese Diskussion wird noch Jahre dauern. Siehst du _*das*_ auch so?_", i.e., as "_the situation_"/"_things_"/<the implicit question>.


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## elroy

Syzygy said:


> _the situation_"/"_things_"/<the *implicit* question>


 

Indeed, in my #4, I considered writing something like “die Situation mit deinem Deutsch” or “deine Deutsch-Situation,” but I wasn’t sure if those were idiomatic so I reworded to “wie dein Deutsch aussieht,” which ended up causing confusion.


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## berndf

Syzygy said:


> I feel the _das_ does not directly refer to the statement in the main clause but I would interpret it like the _das_ in "_Diese Diskussion wird noch Jahre dauern. Siehst du _*das*_ auch so?_", i.e., as "_the situation_"/"_things_"/<the implicit question>.


The interpretation is possible but not obvious to me. The obvious interpretation to me is that you are asking me if I agree with your statement. And if I had to answer your question with a simple _yes_ or _no_, that is what my answer would mean: I agree or I don't agree.

_Siehst du das auch so[, dass diese Diskussion noch Jahre dauern wird]?_


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Is “beurteilen, dass dein Deutsch gut ist” correct German?


No.


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## JClaudeK

elroy said:


> Is “beurteilen, dass dein Deutsch gut ist” correct German?


Lass "dass" weg, dann ist der Satz in Ordnung:
_X hat den Eindruck, dass Ys Deutsch gut ist, fragt sich aber, ob man *das *(= Ys Deutsch ist gut) anhand eines einzigen Satzes beurteilen kann._


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## Syzygy

berndf said:


> The interpretation is possible but not obvious to me. The obvious interpretation to me is that you are asking me if I agree with your statement.


I believed the difference between the two interpretations to be as follows:

(1) Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern man *dieses (von mir gerade gefällte) Urteil* nach einem Satz fällen kann. (_das_ refers to the statement)

(2) Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern man *in dieser Sache* nach einem Satz ein Urteil fällen kann. (_das_ refers to the matter that is being discussed in general)

At the moment, I can't really think of any contexts where these two wouldn't amount to the same thing, I can see either one being valid.

edit: I think I've come around to seeing it berndf's way; mainly because when emphasizing _das_ in "_*Das* sehe ich nicht so._" in my head, I am indeed referencing what the other person said specifically rather than "_the situation_" in general.


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## berndf

I agree; those are the alternative interpretations. And I (and JClaude) agree that there is no practical difference between them.


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## exgerman

It's perhaps worth noting that _einem _is the number "one", and not the definite article.


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## Hutschi

I propose a compromize:
I could reword the original sentence without changing the pragmatic meaning:

_*Dein Deutsch ist gut*, sofern man *das *nach einem Satz beurteilen kann..._

_Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern/wenn man nach einem Satz beurteilen kann, wie gut dein Deutsch ist. (Bernd)_
_Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern/wenn man nach einem Satz beurteilen kann, dass dein Deutsch gut ist. (Bernd)_
_Dein Deutsch ist gut, sofern/wenn man nach einem Satz beurteilen kann, ob dein Deutsch gut ist. (elroy)_
All are meaning basically the same, it is_: Can I decide about your German level, if I know  *only one* sentence from you?

The part:
Dein Deutsch ist gut. _
can have different meanings:


_Dein Deutsch ist gut. (without direct comparing)_
_Dein Deutsch ist gut. (in a multiple choice or as degree, compared to schlecht, sehr gut etc.)_
_Dein Deutsch ist gut. _(as compliment)
The second part refers to one of these (and may be more) statements. Here I fully degree to Bernd, "das" refers to the statement.) It removes 3. (compliment). Like: Du hast Beine wie ein Reh, oder wie heißt das Tier mit dem Rüssel?
You speak German very well. But it seems to be impossible to confirm it after just one sentence.
Depending on situation and on stress it can also be pragmatically a continuation of compliment._ I know you are in doubt, but I am in doubt, too - that it is really possible to decide it. So take it as compliment. _

_Sofern man das nach einem Satz beurteilen kann_ - this makes the sentence relative. It says: _I am not sure if it is true what I said in the first phrase._

So I agree to Elroy, too, in pragmatics.
In syntax I agree to Bernd. "das" relates to the first part.


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## Syzygy

Do you see a functional difference between _es_ and _das_ in such a sentence?
E.g.
_Wenn ich *es* richtig verstanden habe, dann seid ihr euch einig.
_


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> So I agree to Elroy, too, in pragmatics.
> In syntax I agree to Bernd. "das" relates to the first part.


I can't see much of a disagreement, neither on syntax nor on pragmatics. The argument was about semantics.


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