# بِالَّذِي أَسْكَرَ مِنْ عَرْف اللَّمَى.......كُلَّ كأسٍ تَحْتَسيهِ وَحَبَبْ



## gbasfora

Hi,
I am trying to understand the translation of the verse above. I've found four different translations but I believe none of them are 100% correct. Could someone please translate it correctly ? 

Context : 
*بالذي أسكر  - موشح أندلسي*

بِالَّذِي أَسْكَرَ مِنْ عَرْف اللَّمَى.......كُلَّ كأسٍ تَحْتَسيهِ وَحَبَبْ
وَالَّذِي كَحَّلَ جَفْنَيْكَ بِما............سَجَدُ السِّحْرُ لَدَيْهِ وَاقْتَرَبْ

1) The one who intoxicates by the scent of her dark lips ......Each cup she sips, and the pearl-like teeth

2) Swear to the one who got drunk by the soft lips .....And every oath you watered and taken

3) with the one who knew beautiful lips and get drunk....With a sipping cup of love

4) By the one who got me drunk from your sweeten dark lips ........Everytime you drink and stop. 

Thank you


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## Abu Talha

By the usage of the pronouns this reading makes most sense to me:
By the one who intoxicates, by the fragrance of their dark red lips, ... every cup that you sip and [every] water [that you drink]

حَبَب apparently can mean: dew, row of teeth, body or ripple of water, etc. So other readings might be possible.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Talha said:


> حَبَب apparently can mean: dew, row of teeth, body or ripple of water, etc.


Correct, it also means "water running across the teeth when drinking" (could be this), and a type of clay vessel used for drinking or storing water, plural حِباب. I suspect it's the last one because the waaw indicates العطف and the only possible word that it could be معطوف عليه is كأس; and any one of the other meanings of the word make much less sense than another vessel used for drinking - one is used specifically to indicate wine (the classical meaning, today it's used for any liquid), while the other is used specifically to indicate water. Makes perfect sense, right? This meaning would also explain why the pronoun in تحتسيه is masculine while كأس is strictly feminine.

Up to my knowledge the couplet is:

بالذي أسكر من _عذب _اللمى ... كل كأس  تحتسيه وحبب

بالذي means أقسم عليك بالذي - it's a common way to make a قَسَم in Arabic, you use الذي then after that a description of something that only God would do, because the overall meaning is God and the speaker is being poetic. Here the poet is making a request, most probably from the one he loves.

أسكر من عذب اللمى mean 'intoxicated [people/things] by the sweetness of the lips'. Note that اللمى does not mean lips, rather it's the name of a specific colour of lips (very dark red, almost blackish red), however, it's obvious that the poet used it كناية عن الشفاه.

Note here that the verb أسكر is transitive, and the object is كلّ in the second part of the couplet.

Basically, what the poet is trying to say is that her lips intoxicates everything it touches including objects such as the glass she drinks in and the water she sips. And he is using this expression for his قسم.

As such, I would say that the closest translation would be:

I implore you by the one that has made your sweet lips intoxicating to every glass or cup you sip.

Of course it's no longer a couplet, but I'm not a poet, I'm just giving you the meaning


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## gbasfora

Thank you Abu Talha.

This poem is very old . Perhaps he has been written over 1000 years ago during  Muslim  rule of the Iberian Peninsula . The key problem for me, though, is understandingg how the second part of the first verse( .كُلَّ كأسٍ تَحْتَسيهِ وَحَبَبْ )is linked to the first one (بِالَّذِي أَسْكَرَ مِنْ عَرْف اللَّمَى ).
I've found two more versions to first part: بِالَّذِي أَسْكَرَ مِنْ *عَرْف/ عَذْب/عَزْم* اللَّمَى .

Searching for حَبَب in old dictionaries, I also found that it might also mean teeth perfection , perfect teeth , foam and bubbles !

I believe that, based on the above datas, it would be better to try to describe the author's idea behind the verses than trying a literal translation.

My attempt :  He was intoxicated by the fragrancce of her seductive dark red lips 
                       And each nice teeth of hers was like a cup of wine sipped by him


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## gbasfora

Thanks a lot  Mahaodeh
unfortunately I only saw your post after writing my answer to Abu Talha. If I had seen it before, it would have saved me a lot of time.


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## Mahaodeh

gbasfora said:


> Thanks a lot Mahaodeh


You're very welcome

However, I was expecting a follow-up question, but you didn't ask. Hence I'm wondering whether you figured out where the end of the sentence is, because it's still not complete yet.


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## gbasfora

Mahaodeh said:


> You're very welcome
> 
> However, I was expecting a follow-up question, but you didn't ask. Hence I'm wondering whether you figured out where the end of the sentence is, because it's still not complete yet.



I'm sorry Mahaodeh but unfortunately I did not understand your question about where  the end of the sentence is.


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## I.K.S.

Mahaodeh said:


> Up to my knowledge the couplet is:
> 
> بالذي أسكر من _عذب _اللمى ... كل كأس تحتسيه وحبب


So do I, 


gbasfora said:


> This poem is very old . Perhaps he has been written over 1000 years ago during Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula . The key problem for me, though, is understandingg how the second part of the first verse( .كُلَّ كأسٍ تَحْتَسيهِ وَحَبَبْ )is linked to the first one (بِالَّذِي أَسْكَرَ مِنْ عَرْف اللَّمَى ).


The poet is Ibn al Khatib, and the verses are parts of a Muwashah called : زمان الوصل, both the poet and his poems are very popular amongst other poems he wrote such as لما بدا يتثنى_ here in Morocco, he was born in andalucia, pursued his studies at the university of Fes, took an important office and there he tragically died.
Back to your question, Mahaodeh was very close to the intended meaning, but i think what he meant by اللَّمَى in that context is "trickle of drool" and كأسٍ refers to "Wine" and حَبَبْ  means the same thing; a redundant synonym to fill in the gap of the rhyming...so the whole could be read as; 

By [the love of] who has made your sweet drool intoxicating to every glass of wine you sip.
This is linked to a later couplet where he says; ضع على صدري يمناك فما___اجدر الماء باطفاء اللهب
Put you right hand on my chest, Oh! how effective is the water at putting out the flame.


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## gbasfora

Thank you so much ishawiyen (not sure how to call you) . The meaning is very clear now. I had translated that last verse into :
Put your hand on my heart .......coz water is not able to extinguish the flames of passion .


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## Sun-Shine

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> ضع على صدري يمناك فما___اجدر الماء باطفاء اللهب
> Put you right hand on my chest, Oh! how effective is the water at putting out the flame.





gbasfora said:


> coz water is not able to


water is able to...
فما أجدر الماء isn't a negative sentence.


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## Abu Talha

Mahaodeh said:


> As such, I would say that the closest translation would be:
> 
> I implore you by the one that has made your sweet lips intoxicating to every glass or cup you sip.


That does make more sense. It seems أسكر is doubly causative here.


Sun-Shine said:


> water is able to...
> فما أجدر الماء isn't a negative sentence.


Definitely that is the correct translation of ما أجدرَ الماءَ

But do you think, given the previous couplet (والذي أجرى دموعي عندما .. عندما أعرضت من غير سبب), it is possible that ما here is ما النافية:
ما أجدرَ الماءُ
so that the meaning is that his tears are flowing onto his chest but they are unable to put out the flame inside, so he is asking the مخاطب to put their hand on his chest as it is more effective.

I'm not sure it satisfies the conditions of إعمال ما النافية عمل ليس due to the تقديم الخبر but there is the prepositional phrase بإطفاء اللهب so maybe that makes it ok?


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## Sun-Shine

Abu Talha said:


> But do you think, given the previous couplet (والذي أجرى دموعي عندما .. عندما أعرضت من غير سبب), it is possible that ما here is ما النافية:
> ما أجدرَ الماءُ


The meaning is not negative. Also أجدر is a verb.
ما أجدر --> ما أفعل (exclamation).


> I'm not sure it satisfies the conditions of إعمال ما النافية عمل ليس due to the تقديم الخبر but there is the prepositional phrase بإطفاء اللهب so maybe that makes it ok?


It's OK only when خبر مقدم is a prepositional phrase (for some grammarians).


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## Mahaodeh

gbasfora said:


> I'm sorry Mahaodeh but unfortunately I did not understand your question about where the end of the sentence is


The four couplets are one long sentence. The sentence starts with a قَسَم that requires a جواب. In terms of meaning, he starts by imploring by the name of God (in the way he did) and has yet to say what he wants.

As Ashayiyya said, he mentions that in the fourth couplet.


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> but i think what he meant by اللَّمَى in that context is "trickle of drool"


I assume you mean الريق. Actually, I did consider this, however, I didn't find that very idiomatic in English (nor do I expect it to be understood), so I went for lips   .


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> and حَبَبْ means the same thing; a redundant synonym to fill in the gap of the rhyming


I don't know about that, since the first time I heard the song it was water that jumped to my mind. Maybe because this word is still used in Iraqi Arabic to refer to what the Egyptians call القلّة - you know, a clay jug or jar used for drinking water.


Abu Talha said:


> But do you think, given the previous couplet (والذي أجرى دموعي عندما .. عندما أعرضت من غير سبب), it is possible that ما here is ما النافية:
> ما أجدرَ الماءُ
> so that the meaning is that his tears are flowing onto his chest but they are unable to put out the flame inside, so he is asking the مخاطب to put their hand on his chest as it is more effective.


No, for several reasons.
First, the entire expression is a standard صيغة تعجّب composed of ما التعجبية + فعل ماض جامد بصيغة أفعل. It is identical to فما أصبرهم على النار (سورة البقرة آية 175).
Second, the reason he is asking this is exactly because water extinguishes fire. It has to do, in my opinion, with the common Arabic expression. One would say for example ماء بارد على القلب to describe something you like very much or love - think of the expression like a having a drink of cold water in heat of summer. With this in mind, it makes much more sense that he is saying that her hand is like cold water on his heart, hence it _will _extinguish the fire.
Third, the verb أجدر يجدر إجدارا does not make sense in this context. It's a rarely used verb today, but the only meaning I found for it is "to grow or bloom" in the context of plants. It does not mean جَدُرَ يَجْدُرُ جدارة.
Fourth, الماء is in fact mansoub, I have never seen or heard it marfou3; this means that no one ever thought of it other than ما التعجبية - in the end langauge is what people understand, right? If everyone understood it in one way then it most probably is.


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## Mahaodeh

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> The poet is Ibn al Khatib, and the verses are parts of a Muwashah called : زمان الوصل,


Actually, it's not. The above four couplets are from a totally different muwashah by Abu Khalil Al-Qabbani. The original by Lisaan Ad-deen Al Khatib does not include these four couplets at all. 

The confusion comes from the collage made by الأخوين رحباني in the form of an 'inventive' (my description) muwashah and sung by Fairouz in the 1960s. The muwashah comprises mainly of different parts of Al Khatib's muwashah sung out of sequence (for example, the first couplet in the muashah is sung in the end) + these four couplets from Al-Qabbani's muwashah. In addition to that, she starts by singing two verses of a poem (قصيدة وليست موشح) by عنترة بن شداد العبسي. In fact, these four couplets disrupt Al Khatib's original pattern that consists of 2 verses, then 3 couplets, then 2 verses, then 3 couplets...etc. Thus making a new muwashah out of verses from 3 different eras!)

In addition to that, they made some subtle changes (you would notice them if you read the originals - I mean both originals) that are mostly not very important except for one. In the part where he says والذي أجرى دموعي عندما --- عندما أعرضت من غير سبب; Fairouz sings both عندما in the same way, as if repeating the word. Now I don't know if this is her mistake or theirs (probably simply a misunderstanding by all), when in fact the first one is عَندما (which is عَندم with the tanween pronounced as an alif) creating a جناس ناقص with عِندما (meaning when). The significance here is that in poetry it is incorrect to repeat a word simply to fix the meter (or else you might as well just have the whole poem composed of فعولن مفاعلن!), and the جناس is a very important rhetoric (بلاغي) method that the couplet lost by this change.

Anyone who sung the muwashah after that sung it the same way that Ar-Rahbani brothers did it and I doubt anyone even bothered to check the original later! The only thing that other singers removed were the two verses by Antara.

I just thought that someone might be interested in some trivia about these verses


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## Abu Talha

Mahaodeh said:


> Third, the verb أجدر يجدر إجدارا does not make sense in this context. It's a rarely used verb today, but the only meaning I found for it is "to grow or bloom" in the context of plants. It does not mean جَدُرَ يَجْدُرُ جدارة.


I wasn't proposing أجدر يجدر but rather the same اسم تفضيل as used in the ما التعجبية only as a خبر to ما النافية.
In other words if we replace ما with ليس then that is the reading I'm suggesting:
فليس أجدرَ الماءُ بإطفاء اللهب
But the grammar seems not to support this as Sunshine mentioned, or at least it's a stretch.


Mahaodeh said:


> Fourth, الماء is in fact mansoub, I have never seen or heard it marfou3; this means that no one ever thought of it other than ما التعجبية


Well, I found this image online with الماء marfoo3. (Interestingly it also has عَندما).




موشح "بالذي اسكر من عذب اللمى" - اجمل الموشحات و اقرب الألحان الى وجداني



Mahaodeh said:


> - in the end langauge is what people understand, right? If everyone understood it in one way then it most probably is.


True, and I find your second reason above quite convincing. But just wanted to bring this up to see how likely this is as an interpretation. (Not very likely evidently.)


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Talha said:


> I wasn't proposing أجدر يجدر but rather the same اسم تفضيل as used in the ما التعجبية only as a خبر to ما النافية.
> In other words if we replace ما with ليس then that is the reading I'm suggesting:
> فليس أجدرَ الماءُ بإطفاء اللهب
> But the grammar seems not to support this as Sunshine mentioned, or at least it's a stretch.


OK, I didn't consider that. I would imagine that the proper way to say it would be فليس الماء أجدر بإطفاء اللهب, however, since يحق للشاعر ما لا يحق لغيره it could be a possibility. I don't think so but I couldn't disagree that it's a possibility.



Abu Talha said:


> Well, I found this image online with الماء marfoo3. (Interestingly it also has عَندما).


This is indeed interesting! It just shows how no single person can claim that she's seen it all!


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## I.K.S.

Mahaodeh said:


> I assume you mean الريق. Actually, I did consider this, however, I didn't find that very idiomatic in English (nor do I expect it to be understood), so I went for lips  .


Yeah! It does look flirtatious in Arabic...in English is a bit sloppy 


Mahaodeh said:


> I don't know about that, since the first time I heard the song it was water that jumped to my mind. Maybe because this word is still used in Iraqi Arabic to refer to what the Egyptians call القلّة - you know, a clay jug or jar used for drinking water.


We also call it قلّة; "gullah"


Mahaodeh said:


> I just thought that someone might be interested in some trivia about these verses


Excellent excavation, can you share some links or resources? I'm among those interested.


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## Mahaodeh

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> Excellent excavation, can you share some links or resources? I'm among those interested.


I looked them up before the time of the internet (my Aunt and her husband were university professors in Arabic and her husband had an extensive library at home, mostly poetry).

However, I did a quick search on the net and found the original by Al Khatib here, I found some article talking about the song here, and the song by Fairooz here. I didn't find Al Qabbani's original, although I found a mention of it in the Wikipedia page about him.


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## I.K.S.

Thank you Maha! the article is very informative.


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## gbasfora

Thank you very much to all of you  for all the help you gave me. I had no idea the scale of the problem I was dealing with.


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