# Conciencia gramatical / Grammatical awareness



## supercrom

Acerca de la conciencia gramatical del anglohablante​ 
Esto no es más que un comentario que tal vez merezca comentarios.

Una vez escuché que a los hablantes de inglés como lengua nativa no toleran mucho o se aburren cuando les hablan de gramática explícita o implíctamente. En cambio, el hablante de español o de italiano (no sé que tan cierto es esto), suele llevar una enseñanza de gramática más abierta desde los niveles escolares inferiores, es por ello que no son ajenos cuando les presentan gramáticas de otras lenguas...

No sé si me equivoco acerca de esto.  

Gracias de antemanom por dejar expresarme e intercambiar ideas.

*CROM*


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## Artrella

cromteaches said:
			
		

> Acerca de la conciencia gramatical del anglohablante​
> Esto no es más que un comentario que tal vez merezca comentarios.
> 
> Una vez escuché que a los hablantes de inglés como lengua nativa no toleran mucho o se aburren cuando les hablan de gramática explícita o implíctamente. En cambio, el hablante de español o de italiano (no sé que tan cierto es esto), suele llevar una enseñanza de gramática más abierta desde los niveles escolares inferiores, es por ello que no son ajenos cuando les presentan gramáticas de otras lenguas...
> 
> No sé si me equivoco acerca de esto.
> 
> Gracias de antemanom por dejar expresarme e intercambiar ideas.
> 
> *CROM*




Yo coincido con vos.  Creo que el hecho de que en español haya reglas establecidas para el uso correcto de la gramática es un factor que nos diferencia totalmente del inglés.  Quizás por esto no estén tan "conscientes" de la gramática como lo estamos nosotros.  Al menos por lo que yo he observado en este foro, la persona de habla inglesa no tiene tantas reglas gramaticales concientizadas, pero considero que ello se debe a que su idioma no está tan regulado como el español, en el cual uno encuentra normas claras y concretas, ya sea de ortografía o de gramática.


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## shoestring

Como angloparlante aprendiendo el castellano, los encuentro bastante graciosos sus comentarios acerca de esto.  En mis experiencas viajando por latinoamerica me he enterado que cada país, hasta cada región, tiene su propia manera de hablar.  Usan distintas palabras para referirse a las mismas cosas y incluso tienen diferentes concepciones de como, gramáticamente, se debe hablar el idioma.  Solo me tengo que referir al debate acerca del uso de pronombres para probar este punto. 

Y además, las únicas personas a quienes he conocido yo con una consciencia fuerte de la gramática son ellas las cuales han aprendido una segunda lengua.  En cualquier país del mundo, decimos no más lo que nos suena bien, ¿no cierto? 

Por favor corriganme si me equivoco.


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## alc112

Coincido con Shoestring, las personas que estudian otro idioma estan más pendiente a la gramática que las que no estudian otro idioma. Tenemos de ejemplo a Art. que se sabe un montón de idiomas y además de ser una gebia parace una profesora de lengua (sin ofender).


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## supercrom

alc112 said:
			
		

> Coincido con Shoestring, las personas que estudian otro idioma están más pendiente a la gramática que las que no estudian otro idioma. Tenemos de ejemplo a Art, que se sabe un montón de idiomas y, además de ser una *gebia*,parece una profesora de lengua (sin ofender).


What does gebia mean?

Is it any kind of slang or what?

*CROM*


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## Artrella

cromteaches said:
			
		

> What does gebia mean?
> 
> Is it any knid of slang or what?
> 
> *CROM*





Nooooo!!! ha ha ha !!! It was a typo!!  >>> genia!!!


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## alc112

Están muy juntas las dos teclas. Era genia como dijo Art.


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## Artrella

shoestring said:
			
		

> Como angloparlante aprendiendo el castellano, los encuentro bastante graciosos sus comentarios acerca de esto.  En mis experiencas viajando por latinoamerica me he enterado de que cada país, hasta cada región, tiene su propia manera de hablar.  Usan distintas palabras para referirse a las mismas cosas y e  incluso tienen diferentes concepciones de como, gramaticalmente, se debe hablar el idioma.  Solo me tengo que referir al debate acerca del uso de pronombres para probar este punto.
> 
> Y además, las únicas personas a quienes he conocido yo con una consciencia fuerte de la gramática son ellas las cuales han aprendido una segunda lengua.  En cualquier país del mundo, decimos no más lo que nos suena bien, ¿no cierto?
> 
> Por favor corríjanme si me equivoco.




Unas correccioncitas Mike...


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## shoestring

Gracias, Artrella.


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## zebedee

Hola chicos,
Es un tema interesante, lo voy a mover a _cultura _ para que se pueda hablar con más soltura entre más personas de todos los foros.

Maybe, crom, you could translate your original post to English so that more _anglohablantes_ might enjoy the debate. 

Thanks,
saludos,
zeb


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## cuchuflete

zebedee said:
			
		

> Hola chicos,
> Es un tema interesante, lo voy a mover a _cultura _ para que se pueda hablar con más soltura entre más personas de todos los foros.
> 
> Maybe, crom, you could translate your original post to English so that more _anglohablantes_ might enjoy the debate.
> 
> Thanks,
> saludos,
> zeb



Gracias por la oferta Zeb!  Bienvenidos a todos al foro de cultura.
Thanks for the offering Zeb, Welcome to the Culture forum everybody.

Crom--most of the English speakers in the world are not "Anglo" in any sense at all. Perhaps you and your pandilla de gebias can come up with a more accurate description!

Grammar? What's that? Until I started learning Spanish [to be consistent with your terminology, I suppose I might call it Celtiberian] I had never heard of the subjunctive. Then, when I learned what it meant, I discovered that 99% of my countrymen never use it.

saludos,
Cuchu


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## Neru

Same for me too, with regards to the subjunctive. I'm sure that most English-speaking people are not even aware that such a thing exists. I think the same also applies for other aspects of the language; it must be really frustrating for English learners who are struggling with phrasal verbs, for example, only to discover that most native speakers don't even know what they are(!).


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## cristóbal

Os puedo asegurar que como vosotros también hemos pasado años de haber sido golpeados en la cabeza con los libros de gramática.  Yo siempre, _desde luego_, he pensado que el inglés es la lengua más difícil de aprender entre todas--de ahí siempre he dado gracias al Señor por haber nacido en un país de habla inglesa, ya que siendo chiquitín, pensaba que habría muerto intentando aprender inglés como segunda lengua--así que, os felicito los que habéis hecho muy buen progreso en cuanto a aprender inglés.

Claro, con más años, me caigo en la cuenta de que no es así... hasta he conocido a españoles que me dicen que creen que el español es más difícil que el inglés.  Bueno, no estoy de acuerdo, pero da igual. 

Volviendo al tema de la gramática... Siempre he sido un rigorista por la gramática y con mucho gusto cuando empecé a aprender el español también me contagié del purismo gramatical en este idioma. 
De todos modos, aunque me parece muy bien una conciencia gramatical en la lengua nativa justo cuando uno empieza una nueva lengua la gramática no se hace tan importante.  Es decir, cuando uno se encuentra sin la capacidad de expresarse a pesar de la abundancia de expresión que está bulliendo por dentro, es una sensación de tanta inutilidad y tanto desengaño  que uno duda de sí mismo... Hablo de experiencia.  Yo suelo callarme hasta que tenga buena idea de lo que quiero decir.  Entonces, cuando me toca hablar en castellano, ¡Cuánto más me callo! ya que estoy conjugando verbos, colocando preposiciones, eligiendo preposiciones, derribando y construyendo frases... y en fin, creo que del principio cuando aprendemos una lengua debemos enfocarnos en lo que cuenta--la expresión.  O sea, si yo digo "Quiero que vienes", me entendéis perfectamente, ¿No?  Sin embargo, está mal. Pero eso se mejora con tiempo... lo más importante es decirlo porque con callarse uno no se aprende nada más que escuchar (que, claro, es buena cosa, pero vamos...)...
Sobre todo, siempre hay que recordar que lo más importante es la comunicación––hombre, claro, desde luego cuánto más precisión que tenga la comunicación mejor se comunica––y no las reglas y sus detalles.  Pero, para purista gramatical, yo.

Me perdonaréis ya que creo que he divagado del tema.


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## cristóbal

Neru said:
			
		

> I think the same also applies for other aspects of the language; it must be really frustrating for English learners who are struggling with phrasal verbs, for example, only to discover that most native speakers don't even know what they are(!).



Esto sí que es cierto, yo no creo que tenga la más mínima idea de lo que es verdaderamente un "phrasal verb"...


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## alc112

cristóbal said:
			
		

> Os puedo asegurar que como vosotros también hemos pasado años de haber sido golpeados en la cabeza con los libros de gramática. Yo siempre, _desde luego_, he pensado que el inglés es la lengua más difícil de aprender entre todas--de ahí siempre he dado gracias al Señor por haber nacido en un país de habla inglesa, ya que siendo chiquitín, pensaba que habría muerto intentando aprender inglés como segunda lengua--así que, os felicito los que habéis hecho muy buen progreso en cuanto a aprender inglés.
> 
> Claro, con más años, me caigo en la cuenta de que no es así... hasta he conocido a españoles que me dicen que creen que el español es más difícil que el inglés. Bueno, no estoy de acuerdo, pero da igual.
> 
> Volviendo al tema de la gramática... Siempre he sido un rigorista por la gramática y con mucho gusto cuando empecé a aprender el español también me contagié del purismo gramatical en este idioma.
> De todos modos, aunque me parece muy bien una conciencia gramatical en la lengua nativa justo cuando uno empieza una nueva lengua la gramática no se hace tan importante. Es decir, cuando uno se encuentra sin la capacidad de expresarse a pesar de la abundancia de expresión que está bulliendo por dentro, es una sensación de tanta inutilidad y tanto desengaño que uno duda de sí mismo... Hablo de experiencia. Yo suelo callarme hasta que tenga buena idea de lo que quiero decir. Entonces, cuando me toca hablar en castellano, ¡Cuánto más me callo! ya que estoy conjugando verbos, colocando preposiciones, eligiendo preposiciones, derribando y construyendo frases... y en fin, creo que del principio cuando aprendemos una lengua debemos enfocarnos en lo que cuenta--la expresión. O sea, si yo digo "Quiero que vienes", me entendéis perfectamente, ¿No? Sin embargo, está mal. Pero eso se mejora con tiempo... lo más importante es decirlo porque con callarse uno no se aprende nada más que escuchar (que, claro, es buena cosa, pero vamos...)...
> Sobre todo, siempre hay que recordar que lo más importante es la comunicación––hombre, claro, desde luego cuánto más precisión que tenga la comunicación mejor se comunica––y no las reglas y sus detalles. Pero, para purista gramatical, yo.
> 
> Me perdonaréis ya que creo que he divagado del tema.


 


Crist
Nosotros decimos que el español es el idioma más dificil de aprender (creo yo) porque hay más de 100 formas distintas de conjugar los verbos, cosa que ustedes que hablan ingles como primer lengua no hacen mucho con los suyos.
Te felicito por tu buena redacción, solamente quisera saber que significa "*billiendo*"
saludos


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## cuchuflete

alc112 said:
			
		

> Crist
> Nosotros decimos que el español es el idioma más dificil de aprender (creo yo) porque hay más de 100 formas distintas de conjugar los verbos, cosa que ustedes los *angloparlantes* no hacen mucho con los suyos.
> 
> saludos



Hola Alc,

Ten la bondad de usar otra palabra o frase.  Hablo inglés, pero ni tengo el más mínimo concepto de anglo.  Y vos, ¿hablás 'celtibérico'?

Pregunta al amigo Crom.

saludos,
Cuchu


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## alc112

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola Alc,
> 
> Ten la bondad de usar otra palabra o frase. Hablo inglés, pero ni tengo el más mínimo concepto de anglo. Y vos, ¿hablás 'celtibérico'?
> 
> Pregunta al amigo Crom.
> 
> saludos,
> Cuchu


 
OK
Ahora edito mi post entonces.

Saludos
PD: celtibérico?????????


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## Neru

cristóbal said:
			
		

> Esto sí que es cierto, yo no creo que tenga la más mínima idea de lo que es verdaderamente un "phrasal verb"...


Bueno, me imagino que lo habrás dicho en broma, Cris.  
Pero por si acaso no es así, echa un vistazo a esta página: http://usingenglish.com/reference/phrasal-verbs/


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## Artrella

Veo que Zeb y Alc han usado la palabra "angloparlantes" quizás haciendo un paralelo con la palabra "hispanoparlantes".  Si la palabra "angloparlantes" está mal usada, por favor ¿podrían decirme como se tiene que decir?

I see that Zeb and Alc have used the word "angloparlantes/hablantes" maybe establishing a parallel with the word "hispanoparlantes/hablantes".  If the word "angloparlantes" is not correctly used, please could someone tell me which word to use?

Esto es para el moderador Cuchufléte   no hay pandillas en este foro.  Por favor trate de usar otras palabras un poco más educadas.  Gracias.

This is for moderator Cuchufléte   there are no gangs in this forum.  Please try to use other words a little more polite.  Thank you.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Gracias por la oferta Zeb!  Bienvenidos a todos al foro de cultura.
> Thanks for the offering Zeb, Welcome to the Culture forum everybody.
> 
> Crom--most of the English speakers in the world are not "Anglo" in any sense at all. Perhaps *you and your pandilla de gebias * can come up with a more accurate description!
> 
> Grammar? What's that? Until I started learning Spanish [to be consistent with your terminology, I suppose I might call it Celtiberian] I had never heard of the subjunctive. Then, when I learned what it meant, I discovered that 99% of my countrymen never use it.
> 
> saludos,
> Cuchu





A.


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## Benjy

the last time i checked 1.9 billion (english speakers) > 65 million (anglo's)
maybe the rules of math have changed since i left school though


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## cuchuflete

Artrella said:
			
		

> If the word "angloparlantes" is not correctly used, please could someone tell me which word to use?
> 
> Esto es para el moderador Cuchufléte   no hay pandillas en este foro.  Por favor trate de usar otras palabras un poco más educadas.  Gracias.
> 
> This is for moderator Cuchufléte   there are no gangs in this forum.  Please try to use other words a little more polite.  Thank you.
> A.



I didn't say it was used incorrectly. I pointed out the inaccuracy of the term, as most English speakers are not "Anglo" nor is the language itself. I asked Crom, who I believe is a scholar of linguistics, to suggest a better--in the sense of more precise and accurate-- label. You yourself, in post #2 of this discussion, used 'personas de habla inglesa' which seems far more accurate and less misleading and confusing.

Pandilla is defined, both in my dictionaries, and in the daily usage from which I learned it, as a group or band of friends, 'grupo de amigos'. If the word has other connotations in your experience, that is yet another of the hundreds of demonstrations we see here each week of regional variations.
One of the five definitions give by the RAE is



> . Grupo de amigos que suelen reunirse para divertirse en común.



Another translates to gang. I used the word to mean the former. You interpreted it as the latter. Such is the ambiguity of words with multiple meanings.

When I am participating in the forums, it is generally as a forero, or forum member. When I act as a Moderator, I either identify myself as such, or it is abundantly clear from the context.

To avoid doubts or confusion, my participation in this thread is 100% as a forero/member.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to address your concerns,

un saludo,
Cuchu


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## cuchuflete

Benjy said:
			
		

> the last time i checked 1.9 billion (english speakers) > 65 million (anglo's)
> maybe the rules of math have changed since i left school though



Thanks Benjy,
I think these data should lead the scholars to reconsider their use of the term  Anglo to characterize the 1.835 million non-anglo speakers of English.
It's curious. In English itself there is no commonly used term to describe English speakers that includes the term 'anglo'.  I have seen it frequently in Spanish.

How do French and Italian speakers refer to those who speak English?

saludos,
Cuchu


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## Artrella

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I didn't say it was used incorrectly. I pointed out the inaccuracy of the term, as most English speakers are not "Anglo" nor is the language itself. I asked Crom, who I believe is a scholar of linguistics, to suggest a better--in the sense of more precise and accurate-- label. You yourself, in post #2 of this discussion, used 'personas de habla inglesa' which seems far more accurate and less misleading and confusing.
> 
> Pandilla is defined, both in my dictionaries, and in the daily usage from which I learned it, as a group or band of friends, 'grupo de amigos'. If the word has other connotations in your experience, that is yet another of the hundreds of demonstrations we see here each week of regional variations.
> One of the five definitions give by the RAE is
> 
> 
> 
> Another translates to gang. I used the word to mean the former. You interpreted it as the latter. Such is the ambiguity of words with multiple meanings.
> 
> When I am participating in the forums, it is generally as a forero, or forum member. When I act as a Moderator, I either identify myself as such, or it is abundantly clear from the context.
> 
> To avoid doubts or confusion, my participation in this thread is 100% as a forero/member.
> 
> Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to address your concerns,
> 
> un saludo,
> Cuchu




My apologies Cuchufléte!  I am really sorry!! I misunderstood that word!!

Saludos, N.


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## cuchuflete

Artrella said:
			
		

> My apologies Cuchufléte!  I am really sorry!! I misunderstood that word!!
> 
> Saludos, N.



Artrella, no need to apologize...no harm done.  You caused me to look up the word in five dictionaries, and I learned previously unknown meanings of it!
I learned it in Santander, Cantabria, where it simply meant a bunch of friends.

As to 'anglo', both the French and Italians use, with different spellings,
Anglophone/anglofono, so Spanish speakers are not alone.  I like your earlier phrase, 'de habla inglesa' better.  It's certainly less contentious!

Perhaps you can explain to Alc the parallelism between anglo and celtibérico...

Our saintly friends of the RAE tell us..


> *ibérico**, ca**.*
> (Del lat. _Iberĭcus_).
> * 1.* adj. Natural de Iberia.
> * 2.* adj. Perteneciente o relativo a la Península Ibérica.
> * 3.* m. Lengua de los *antiguos* iberos.
> 
> _Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados_



That makes it a pretty good parallel to Anglo, or so it seems to me.
What do you think?  Should we start a trend?
hispanohablante  ibéricohablante  

saludos,
Cuchu


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## Artrella

I'd say " hispano parlantes" and " personas de habla inglesa".  I cannot find a parallel for both.  

And as regards "Celtíberos", well may be some Spaniards are Celtic and some are Iberic, the Northern ones would be Celtic and the Southern ones would be Iberic.  So it depends on what language do you speak to establish if it is Celtic or Iberic.   All the same, I got your point and I think you are right.
However, in this thread we are discussing just this >>  Rules vs. usage.  If the majority of the countries of the world use "angloparlantes" why not use that word then?  I haven't heard of anyone adressing us as "Celtíberos parlantes" or whatever, but "hispanoparlantes/hablantes".  So if this is the usage, well we have to accept it.  

Saludos, N.


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## cuchuflete

Good points.  It is interesting that speakers of the major  Romance languages use 'anglo' to describe English speakers, while  English speakers themselves do not.

The celtíbero suggestion was obviously sarcastic and absurd...though it seems a fair parallel to 'anglo'.

We should hear what Germans and other non-Romance language speakers say.  I suspect that the Spanish term came from the French!



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> I'd say " hispano parlantes" and " personas de habla inglesa".  I cannot find a parallel for both.
> 
> And as regards "Celtíberos", well may be some Spaniards are Celtic and some are Iberic, the Northern ones would be Celtic and the Souther ones would be Iberic. So it depends on what language do you speak to establish if it is Celtic or Iberic. All the same, I got your point and I think you are right.
> However, in this thread we are discussing just this >> Rules vs. usage. If the majority of the countries of the world use "anglo parlantes" why not use that word then? I haven't heard of anyone adressing us as "Celtíberos parlantes" or whatever, but "hispanoparlantes/hablantes". So if that is the usage, well we have to accept it.
> 
> Saludos, N.


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## Artrella

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I suspect that the Spanish term came from the French!




Sorry, what term do you refer to? "Anglo parlantes"?


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## cuchuflete

Artrella said:
			
		

> Sorry, what term do you refer to? "Anglo parlantes"?



Sí...I don't have a good etymological source at hand, but I suspect...
educated intuition or bad guesswork ...you decide...that the term came from 
France to Spain.


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## Artrella

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Sí...I don't have a good etymological source at hand, but I suspect...
> educated intuition or bad guesswork ...you decide...that the term came from
> France to Spain.




Well, if it came from France then it does not refer to the "Anglosaxons" but to the language "Anglais" so it would be correct then! 
We have to find out its origin.


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## Benjy

Artrella said:
			
		

> Well, if it came from France then it does not refer to the "Anglosaxons" but to the language "Anglais" so it would be correct then!
> We have to find out its origin.



where do you think the word anglais came from? it was from the germanic tribe..


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## Artrella

Benjy said:
			
		

> where do you think the word anglais came from? it was from the germanic tribe..





The Germanic tribe was called "the Angles" and the other tribe that conquered England was "The Saxons", among the Danes, the Jutes and some other people.

Some regions of the UK were named after this tribe >> East Anglia, Middle Anglia.

Some other regions were named after the Saxons >> Wessex (West Saxons),
Essex (East Saxons), Sussex (South Saxons)

Source: A Shortened History of England (G.M. Trevelyan)


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## Outsider

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I didn't say it was used incorrectly. I pointed out the inaccuracy of the term, as most English speakers are not "Anglo" nor is the language itself. I asked Crom, who I believe is a scholar of linguistics, to suggest a better--in the sense of more precise and accurate-- label.


Are "England" and "English" inaccurate terms, too, then?
French-speaking people don't seem to mind being called 'francophones', even though only a fraction of them descends from the tribe of the Franks...


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## cristóbal

I personally don't have any qualms with being an "angloparlante"... it does sound a bit pretentious though. ;-)
Nevertheless, there's very little English blood in these veins of mine.  If you started calling me a WASP, or an anglo-saxon, or something of the like, well, then I would object.


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## cuchuflete

cristóbal said:
			
		

> I personally don't have any qualms with being an "angloparlante"... it does sound a bit pretentious though. ;-)
> Nevertheless, there's very little English blood in these veins of mine. If you started calling me a WASP, or an anglo-saxon, or something of the like, well, then I would object.



I should much prefer being called un angel parlante! But then that would be terribly inaccurate.  Maybe my sensitivity is due to the fact that so many tens of millions of English speakers have no Anglo-saxon heritage.  I certainly don't mind being tagged by the language I speak, but I prefer not to be mis-labeled as to tribal origins.  Tribalism is bad enough by itself.

The Angles were a Germanic tribe, and the English language owes much to them, but also owes much to other tribes.  I'll just have to wait for a better term, though I'm quite comfortable with Artrella's 'de habla inglesa'.

saludos,
Cuchu


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## cristóbal

Just as "English" comes from the name for the Angles....   does that mean you want to change the name of English to American?  Please, say it ain't so, Joe.


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## cristóbal

From there, let's just get rid of American too, because I have nothing to do with Amerigo Vespucci, let alone Italians.  I demand to be called Germanic, and my language is "The Bastard Child of Europe" from now on--none of this "English" business.


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## cuchuflete

cristóbal said:
			
		

> From there, let's just get rid of American too, because I have nothing to do with Amerigo Vespucci, let alone Italians. I demand to be called Germanic, and my language is "The Bastard Child of Europe" from now on--none of this "English" business.



If by "english business" you are referring to British Leyland, Lucas Electric etc, I understand your feelings completely.  We should rename the continent after some of the indigenous peoples, speak bastardo, and hire student architects to run the national academy of language.  All those over age 50 should be exiled to some place warmer than Maine, and ........
If we get rid of American, as you suggest, does that mean the end of American cheese, which isn't even cheese?  This is getting too complicated.

Let's all just speak Spanish and Portugues. Você acha?

saludos,
Cuchu


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## Outsider

Of course, in English you can simply say "English-speaking" (although the Angles are still hidden in the etymology of that phrase).   
But, you see, it's not as easy to build phrases like that in other languages. In Spanish, for instance, "hablante de inglés" is a longer and more cumbersome expression. It's preferable to go back to Greek and build "anglófono", which is a simpler and more compact word.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> Of course, in English you can simply say "English-speaking" (although the Angles are still hidden in the etymology of that phrase).
> But, you see, it's not as easy to build phrases like that in other languages. In Spanish, for instance, "hablante de inglés" is a longer and more cumbersome expression. It's preferable to go back to Greek and build "anglófono", which is a simpler and more compact word.



Leaving the hidden angles out of the geometry, what you have proposed is exacty what the Italians use, and very close to the French word.  

But what do we do with the term "Anglo-American", often used to describe relationships between the English speakers on each side of the puddle? Doesn't that imply a distinction?

saludos,
Cuchu de habla inglesa, deforme


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## Outsider

Just because the two words "anglófono" (or "anglohablante") and "angloamericano" are built with the same prefix _anglo-_, it doesn't mean that they have to apply to the same group of people...


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## supercrom

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola Alc,
> 
> Ten la bondad de usar otra palabra o frase. Hablo inglés, pero ni tengo el más mínimo concepto de anglo. Y vos, ¿hablás 'celtibérico'?
> 
> Pregunta al amigo Crom.
> 
> saludos,
> Cuchu


 
We, spanish speakers, don't use the word celtíbero... we could call our language "evolución peninsular del latín vulgar arabizado" (a language which evolved from vulgar latin with received arabic influence).

Actually it is easier to say: romance language, "lengua romance".



			
				DRAE dictionary said:
			
		

> *angloparlante.
> 1. adj. anglohablante. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
> 
> anglohablante.
> 1. adj. Que tiene el inglés como lengua materna o propia. Apl. a pers., u. t. c. s.
> *


 
*CROM*​ 
u.t.c.s. = usado también como sustantivo
Apl. a pers. = Aplícase a personas


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## cristóbal

Respectfully, Cuchu, I think you're creating a problem that doesn't actually exist. ;-)


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## supercrom

*English version*

Correct any mistake you find, plz! 

About English-speaker's Grammatical Awareness​​​
This is only a comment that maybe deserves other comments.​ 
I once heard that speakers whose mother tongue is English don't tolerate or get bored when they are taught explicit grammar. On the other hand, Italian or Spanish-speakers (I don't know if this really true), begin learning the language grammatically (of course not only grammar) from the lower school levels (elementary), that is why they don't find difficulties when they face other grammars...

Maybe I'm wrong about it.  

Thanks in advance for letting me express my ideas.

*CROM*

*Correct any mistake you find, plz!*


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## Benjy

i'll be honest, all the grammar that i have learnt has come from my own studies of other languages. i can only think of one specfic lesson in my seven years of secondary education where i was taught grammar, and i guess it stuck out in my mind because it was so exceptional. rather sad really =[


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## supercrom

Benjy said:
			
		

> i'll be honest, all the grammar that i have learnt has come from my own studies of other languages. i can only think of one specfic lesson in my seven years of secondary education where i was taught grammar, and i guess it stuck out in my mind because it was so exceptional. rather sad really =[



 I think you are a real testimony; therefore, you have confirmed what I wrote.

*CROM*


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## Benjy

cromteaches said:
			
		

> I think you are a real testimony; therefore, you have confirmed what I wrote.
> 
> *CROM*



in part.. i dont think that i was at a disadvantage when it came to understanding french grammar for example. the two structures are so different that the only thing in my opinion that would have been helpful is a prior knowledge of some of the terms used to designate the various parts of speech. that said, despite the fact that i dont really remember beong taught much grammar.. i still left "high school" knowing what adjectives nouns averbs etc were.. it was only the slightly more "advanced" terms (for want of a better word) necessary for complete mastery of a foreign language which were missing.


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## VenusEnvy

Benj: I agree with you on this. My situation was the same. Although we were taught what adjectives and verbs were, it never went beyond that. It was not until I began learning french (years ago) that I became aware that a language was more than a series of words that made sounds, and more of a formula. I was never taught English grammar directly. I learned it by speaking and reading it. When I became interested in other languages (as an adult), I then saw my own language in a whole new light.


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## cristóbal

Wow, well, let me be the exception... Although I had no idea what the subjunctive was, I had plenty of grammar growing up.  Perhaps it is a generation gap.


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## abc

cromteaches said:
			
		

> *English version*
> 
> Correct any mistake you find, plz!
> 
> About English-speaker's Grammatical Awareness​
> 
> 
> This is only a comment that maybe deserves other comments.​
> I once heard that speakers whose mother tongue is English don't tolerate or get bored when they are taught explicit grammar.


 
Know English grammar, understand English grammar, analyze English grammar...are not very important objectives to a great number of American educators, I'm afraid.  Hope this casual attention paid to grammar will not continue for long.


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## cristóbal

I think that statement's a bit overly generalized, don't you, abc?


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## VenusEnvy

abc said:
			
		

> Know English grammar, understand English grammar, analyze English grammar...are not very important objectives to a great number of American educators, I'm afraid.  Hope this casual attention paid to grammar will not continue for long.



Without straying too far from the topic, (and creating too much controversy) the problem is not only with American educators and not only about the subject of English. The problem lies within the the entire educational system (local, state and federal). This may include the teachers, administrators, other faculty, resources, supplies, funding, as well as a plethora of other issues concerning the curriculum and method of instruction.  I don't necessarily think that the educators are totally to blame here. Afterall, above the students themselves, they're are the bottom of the barrel! They receive much pressure from higher powers to teach certain subjects, and to teach them a certain way. We're talking here about an entire system change. 
:: puts tail between legs, scurries off ::


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## abc

> Originally Posted by *abc*
> _Know English grammar, understand English grammar, analyze English grammar...are not *very* important objectives to a *great* number of American *educators*, I'm afraid. Hope this casual attention paid to grammar will not continue for long._







			
				cristóbal said:
			
		

> I think that statement's a bit overly generalized, don't you, abc?


 
I hope it is, cristobal. 



			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Without straying too far from the topic, (and creating too much controversy) the problem is not only with American educators and not only about the subject of English. The problem lies within the the entire educational system (local, state and federal). This may include the teachers, administrators, other faculty, resources, supplies, funding, as well as a plethora of other issues concerning the curriculum and method of instruction. *I don't necessarily think that the educators are totally to blame here. Afterall, above the students themselves, they're are the bottom of the barrel! They receive much pressure from higher powers to teach certain subjects, and to teach them a certain way. We're talking here about an entire system change. *
> :: puts tail between legs, scurries off ::


 
I wholeheartedly agree with you Venus! I'm sorry for not elaborating my thoughts when I issued such a big statement. However, I had considered my words carefully before I posted the message. I did not choose the word *educators* to merely mean *teachers*. Just in case you were wondering...


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## VenusEnvy

abc/QH: Sorry, this is off-topic, but, did you change your name on WR?


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## abc

Venus, I did.


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## Narda

Sorry Shoestring, I do not agree.  Tuve que borrar todo lo escrito y solamente daré un ejemplo simple:

Inglés:  Me and Cory went fishing (aah... but people know that is not right)

Español:  Cory y yo fuimos a pescar.  If a 5-year old says something like the previous sentence (yo y Cory...) la madre, la tía, la hermana, el vecino lo corrigen con una frase muy simple:  "Con el burro adelante?" (meaning, the donkey does not know anything about correct speech, therefore...).  I understand that besides many Latin American countries using this phrase, it is also very popular in Asturias, couldn't tell the rest of Spain.  Cierto o no?


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## araceli

Hola:
Acá también decían: "¡Con el burro adelante para que no se espante!"  
Saludos.


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