# Persian: به سر رسد



## wannabee.farsi.nerd

Hello, 

There is a phrase I have come across, and I'm having trouble grasping what it means. An example is from a Khayyam rubaiyat. Relevant portion I'm struggling with is bolded and in the subject line.  



> چون عمر *به سر رسد* چه شیرین و چه تلخ


​I translated this as "as life ends, whether sweet or bitter." I know *سر *= head/top, and *رسد *as a noun is share/portion, but together I'm having trouble what this means; it seems like a phrase/compound noun, rather than individual words that should be read separately.


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## Qureshpor

A rod has two ends and from one end to the other end is سر تا سر.

Think of life as a span and the end of it is سر

So...

When one's life *reaches the end *whether (it was) sweet or bitter....

"rasad" is a verb in the مُضارع format/tense.


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## mannoushka

_Be sar ressad_ is a compound verb.
Infinitive: _be sar resseedan_, to reach the end after a length of time.


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## PersoLatin

> چون عمر *به سر رسد* چه شیرین و چه تلخ


سر in به سرآمدن/رسیدن means 'the top/head/upper most', so 'reach/come to the top', same as in سر رفتن/go to the top, which in day-to-day language means 'to spill over', e.g. when boiling milk or when a vessel is overfilled, one can imagine the body as a vessel holding life/time, به سر رسیدن is when the vessel is full (the process ends) with life/time, good or bad.

There's another saying جان به لب رسیدن  (life reaching one's lips "to reach one's limit of tolerance"), here life/جان doesn't reach/رسیدن as far as the top/سر, only to the lips/لب.


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> _Be sar ressad_ is a compound verb.
> Infinitive: _be sar resseedan_, to reach the end after a length of time.


Is there a tashdiid on the "s" in the verb "rasiidan" رَسِیدن?


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## mannoushka

Qureshpor said:


> Is there a tashdiid on the "s" in the verb "rasiidan" رَسِیدن?


No, there isn’t. It is good that you asked, though. The doubling of the ‘s’ is just my way of ensuring nobody pronounces the letter like a ‘z’. 

Incidentally, the س in question does not take a _kasre_.


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> No, there isn’t. It is good that you asked, though. The doubling of the ‘s’ is just my way of ensuring nobody pronounces the letter like a ‘z’.
> 
> Incidentally, the س in question does not take a _kasre_.


I see. The double s is your own style. I believe the siin does have a kasra which is then followed by a ye to give the sound "sii". But we will not worry about this as we will be going off topic.


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## mannoushka

Ascertaining how the verb in question is normally written makes this remark relevant to the topic. Giving the ‘s’ a _kasre_ is supposed to alter the ‘see’ to a ‘say’: _re-*say*-dan, _which is non-standard.


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> Ascertaining how the verb in question is normally written makes this remark relevant to the topic. Giving the ‘s’ a _kasre_ is supposed to alter the ‘see’ to a ‘say’: _re-*say*-dan, _which is non-standard.


I think you may be misintrpreting something that I am saying. This is how I would spell out "rasiidan" in the Persian script. The direction of writing, needless to say, is from right to left.

ر + زبر + س + زیر +ی+دال+زبر +ن = رسیدن

If you spell it in any other way, that's fine with me.


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## PersoLatin

جا نم به لبم


Qureshpor said:


> ر + زبر + س + زیر +ی+دال+زبر +ن = رسیدن


Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
Or
ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> جا نم به لبم
> Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
> ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
> Or
> ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن


Well, PeroLatin, the convention that we have been brought up is this.

a = alif +zabar
aa = alif + zabar +alif = alif + madd on top
baa = be + zabar + alif

Similarly..

i = alf + zer
ii = alif +zer +ye
bii= be +zer +ye and
sii therefore = siin+zer+ye

Likewise, 

u= alif +pesh
uu= alif +pesh +vaa'o
buu= be +pesh+vaa'o

We also have two dipthongs and two majhuul vowels which you know all about.


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## mannoushka

Thank you, Qureshpor, for elaborating. 

Does this convention exist in the Urdu script? Or are you saying this is acceptable to (some) Persian writers? Who is the “we” in your post above?

In any case it is good to know that such a difference can exist.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> *جا نم به لبم*
> Using your convention, رسیدن in modern Iranian Persian is:
> ر + زبر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن
> Or
> ر + زیر + س + ی + دال + زبر + ن = رسیدن


Sorry everyone, جا نم به لبم is a phantom piece of text, please ignore. (it was left in the panel when I wrote post #4)


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> Thank you, Qureshpor, for elaborating.
> 
> Does this convention exist in the Urdu script? Or are you saying this is acceptable to (some) Persian writers? Who is the “we” in your post above?
> 
> In any case it is good to know that such a difference can exist.


This convention has been passed on from the Arabic script into Persian, Urdu and other Arabic based scripts with one main difference. In Arabic, no word begins with a vowel.

So,

a = hamza + fatHah (hamzah sitting on top of an alif which is only the bearer of the hamzah)
aa = hamzah + fatHah (sitting on an alif as above) + alif of prolongation = آ

In کــَتَبَنِی  kataba-nii (He wrote to me), in the suffix "nii" we have a nuun + kasrah + yaa2

The "sii" in rasiidan" would therefore be spelt as سِی. In Arabic, the final ye, you will no doubt know, is given two dots unless it belongs to an الاسم المقصور such as الھدی , موسی and لیلی etc.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Sorry everyone, جا نم به لبم is a phantom piece of text, please ignore.


That's good to know. I thought you had had enough of me and were in the process of writing..

خدایا، _جانم به لبم_ رسیده است، مرا نجات ده


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Well, PeroLatin, the convention that we have been brought up is this.
> 
> a = alif +zabar
> aa = alif + zabar +alif = alif + madd on top
> baa = be + zabar + alif
> 
> Similarly..
> 
> i = alf + zer
> ii = alif +zer +ye
> bii= be +zer +ye and
> sii therefore = siin+zer+ye
> 
> Likewise,
> 
> u= alif +pesh
> uu= alif +pesh +vaa'o
> buu= be +pesh+vaa'o
> 
> We also have two dipthongs and two majhuul vowels which you know all about.


It's good that you have a convention. 

Will you be kind enough to write out the following in that convention please, as close as you can get to the Iranian Persian pronunciation, perhaps use the Latin as a guide.
ابرو امید ‏ایران ‏ آب مو ‏‏‏شو/abru omid Irân âb mu ŝo (last two are 'hair' and 'go/get')


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> That's good to know. I thought you had had enough of me and were in the process of writing..
> 
> خدایا، _جانم به لبم_ رسیده است، مرا نجات ده


Is there an emoji for that? 

It was left in the panel when I wrote post #4


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> It's good that you have a convention.
> 
> Will you be kind enough to write out the following in that convention please, as close as you can get to the Iranian Persian pronunciation, perhaps use the Latin as a guide.
> ابرو امید ‏ایران ‏ آب مو ‏‏‏شو/abru omid Irân âb mu ŝo (last two are 'hair' and 'go/get')


If the last one is the imperative of the verb verb "shudan", then here goes my reply. Please do not forget that, just like Persian and Arabic, the zabars, the zers and the peshs are not normally written.

اَبرُو, اُمِید, اِیرَان, آب, مُو, شَو

Any more tests?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> If the last one is the imperative of the verb verb "shudan", then here goes my reply. Please do not forget that, just like Persian and Arabic, the zabars, the zers and the peshs are not normally written.
> 
> اَبرُو, اُمِید, اِیرَان, آب, مُو, شَو
> 
> Any more tests?


Thank you for that, but I meant in the Latin convention (post 11), so I can get familiar with it. Also reading the version you have sent, they are not in modern Iranian Persian, so in your Latin convention but in modern Iranian Persian style, if possible please.

In fact there is a post here for that so I am fine now thank you.


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## mannoushka

Qureshpor said:


> This convention has been passed on from the Arabic script into Persian, Urdu and other Arabic based scripts with one main difference. In Arabic, no word begins with a vowel.


(This last sentence brings a fresh bout of bafflement: how about آخر, امارات, اوتار, just off the top of my head?)

In Iran the rules applied in writing in Arabic are deemed valid only for the Arabic language, which is taught extensively, I expect. It must be the case that those who study both languages develop two mindsets, one each for dealing with either _dabeere_. 

Persian textbooks for the first up to maybe second grade, in which diacritics are printed, certainly don’t abide by the Arabic convention سِی (sounding like ‘see’), deeming the spelling erroneous.

The use of the _kasre_ or _zir_ under a consonant and just before a ی is in the Persian of Iran reserved for where it’s really needed, eg. in these words: 

شِیهه (_shayhe_, the neighing of a horse), 
پِیکر (, _paykar_, body), 
نِیسان (_naysaan_, archaic name of a month in spring),
دِی (_day_, month of Day in winter).


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## Qureshpor

mannoushka said:


> (This last sentence brings a fresh bout of bafflement: how about آخر, امارات, اوتار, just off the top of my head?)
> 
> In Iran the rules applied in writing in Arabic are deemed valid only for the Arabic language, which is taught extensively, I expect. It must be the case that those who study both languages develop two mindsets, one each for dealing with either _dabeere_.
> 
> Persian textbooks for the first up to maybe second grade, in which diacritics are printed, certainly don’t abide by the Arabic convention سِی (sounding like ‘see’), deeming the spelling erroneous.
> 
> The use of the _kasre_ or _zir_ under a consonant and just before a ی is in the Persian of Iran reserved for where it’s really needed, eg. in these words:
> 
> شِیهه (_shayhe_, the neighing of a horse),
> پِیکر (, _paykar_, body),
> نِیسان (_naysaan_, archaic name of a month in spring),
> دِی (_day_, month of Day in winter).


Please open another thread, quoting this post of yours and your bafflement will be removed


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## Alfaaz

Relevant thread where this topic could be discussed in further detail: All IIR language that use Arabic script: Vowel Markings


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