# of the same substance



## Casquilho

Hello, can you please tell me how can I say in good Latin the clause "of the same substance/matter/stuff/essence", the context is this phrase, "your genius and the eagle are of the same substance"?
OBS: I'd rather like an expression, not an adjective like "consubstantial", for that would sound somewhat weaker to me.


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## jrundin

There is a Greek word, ὁμοούσιος [homoousios; "homo-"= same], which means "of the same substance." It is contrasted
with "ὁμοιούσιος [homoiousios; "homoi-"= similar]," which means of similar substance. Both these terms go back to 
the debates over the Arian Heresy. Arius held that Jesus was of similar, but different
substance with God the Father (i.e., Jesus was ὁμοιούσιος); the opposite point of view,
that Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father (i.e., Jesus was  ὁμοούσιος)
triumphed at the Council of Nicaea. This position was codified in the 
Nicene Creed, which came out of the Council of Nicaea. Unfortunately, 
all this went on in Greek, not Latin, and there are many
Latin Nicene creed translations of the Nicene Creed, which could supply different models for your
question. Several translations render "of the same substance" as  "eiusdem substantiae"
Others, however, translate the idea as "consubstantialis, -e," which is a more
direct translation of "ὁμοούσιος." In any case, I would translate something like

"tuum ingenium et aquila eiusdem substantiae sunt" OR
"tuum ingenium et aquila consubstantalia sunt." 
The second one here is harsh because of the forced concordance of "aquila" and "consubstantalia," 
so I might soften it by saying "tuum ingenium aquilae consubstantale est," putting "aquila" in the dative. 

Your question is the harder because it is unclear what is meant by "genius" in your inquiry. 
I took it to mean "talents, abilities, intelligence," and translated it here accordingly as "ingenium." 

However, if you really mean "genius" in the Latin sense, which does not mean what "genius" in
English does usually, but is the vaguely defined animistic spirit of something, then you would 
get 
"tuus genius et aquila eiusdem substantiae sunt" OR
"tuus genius et aquila consubstantiales sunt." 
The concordances work out better in this second sentence than in the version 
above with "ingenium," so I think it's o.k. as it stands.


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## Casquilho

Hi jrundin, I thank you for your help. But it seems like you looked over my observation: what I want is a locution, not an adjective, precisely because I want to avoid the teological color of the word "consubstantial", furthermore I think the poetic strength of the phrase is better rendered with a locution. With "genius" indeed I did mean intelligence, dexterity, habilities. _eiusdem substantiae sunt _sounds promising. Anyone has other suggestions?


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## jrundin

Well, I must confess that it escapes me how "consubtantialis" is in any sense more teleological 
than "eiusdem substantiae," but that's my problem, I guess. 

What I will say is that, I think among more sophisticated audiences, "consubtantialis
has won the day in translations of the Nicene Creed. Some 
versions of the Nicene Creed in Latin do have "eiusdem 
substantiae." Others have "unius substantiae" [= "of one substance"].  I know of no other
variants (though they do vary in how they express the "with the Father" that is typically
attached ["cum Patre," "qua Pater est,"...]). 

"substantia" is the Latin translation of "οὐσία," Greek for "being." There is an alternate
translation, "essentia," which is medieval, so you could use that instead. Then you'd have
"unius essentiae" or "eiusdem essentiae." However, this strikes me as a bit of a barbarism.


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## Casquilho

jrundin said:


> Well, I must confess that it escapes me how "consubtantialis" is in any sense more teleological
> than "eiusdem substantiae," but that's my problem, I guess.



What I meant is that the religious, teological use of the word has printed on it that meaning as the chief, e. g. the Greek word _agape _to our modern eyes immediately means love of God, even though there are instances of it being used in erotical sense on Greek writings.

How about _materia_? Do you think it could be used too?


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## jrundin

I'm not sure about that. "materia" or "materies" is a philosophical term, and I 
am unfamiliar with such things. I think that it refers to the concrete physical
stuff (atoms or whatever) of which something is made: the material cause in
an Aristotelian sense. 

"substance" is, I think, a more difficult word with many usages in different
philosophers. I think it may be more associated with the "formal" cause of 
something as opposed the material cause. But this is outside my realm of
expertise.


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## Kevin Beach

In the standard Latin version of the Nicene Creed use din the Catholic Church, the words _consubstantialem patri_ are used to mean "of the same substance as the father"

The nominative would be consubstantialis.


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