# If you will (idiom): French origin?



## Schrodinger's_Cat

I am curious about the idiom *if you will*

People in the media use it quite often. I get annoyed when I hear too often... as with the abuse of "like" such as:
She's, like, so hot!
etc.

Does this idiom come from the French language?

In French there are the expressions: *Si tu veux, Si vous voulez, Si l'on veut*


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## sokol

Both French and German origin ("Wenn Sie wollen") are not unlikely if we take into account that both French and German indeed had _some _influence on American English.
However I wouldn't know if another source could be the origin - probably even some English dialects (as you know New England still shows traces pointing to old English dialects).


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## Joannes

Do we have reasons to suspect it wouldn't just come from English?

*Will* is still used with a volitional meaning (and I mean the verb, the noun obviously denotes volition as well). Seems like a natural evolution..


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## Wilma_Sweden

Swedish has an equivalent expression: om du så vill 

In theory, the phrase could have been imported from French, as this was the language en vogue in 18th century Sweden, but I have found no evidence to suggest that. I find it more likely to be a general phrase that exists in several languages independently of each other.

/Wilma


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## sokol

Joannes said:


> Do we have reasons to suspect it wouldn't just come from English?
> 
> *Will* is still used with a volitional meaning (and I mean the verb, the noun obviously denotes volition as well). Seems like a natural evolution..


I agree of course.  (In my post I tried to suggest this too.)

It may also be explained through English. - But as Wilma mentions Swedish: many Scandinavians immigrated to America, and it is thus not unlikely that this also had an influence.

Another thing also is possible: let's suppose that this phrase always existed in English, but was rather marginal.
But when other influences came along (Frech or German or Swedish or yet others) the balance tipped and the phrase turned from "marginal" to "popular".
It is a possibility - but still, guesswork only, yet.


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## brian

The thing is that _if you will_ no longer really expresses volition--at least not to my ears. So the question is, do _wenn Sie wollen_, _si vous voulez_, etc. express volition with the meanings of _if you *want/wish*_? I suspect they do, since _wollen_, _vouloir_, etc. pretty much only have volitive connotations, I believe; and if that's the case, then you cannot say _if you will = wenn Sie wollen, si vous voulez_.

So then what does _if you will_ mean? I'm not really sure, but it has almost become synoynomous with _if you *would*_. Example:

_Gentlemen of the jury, take a good look, if you will, at evidence item A._
(in an article, to the reader) _Consider, if you will, the problems in classification of..._

I guess it can mean _wish/want_ in the case of something like:

_Okay so let's not call it X... call it Y, if you will._

I think it's usually used when you're creating a word or maybe using a word that doesn't exactly fit, but the idea is "Let's call it this, if you want / if that's okay with you."

Whatever the case, I'd say in 99% of the cases I say "if you wish, if you want," I could not substitute with "if you will," e.g. _We can go to the movies tonight, if you will. _ even though you can say _wenn du willst_ and _si tu veux_.

Anyway, I'm personally not very clear on what _if you will_ actually means--I think its meaning can range over a few possibilities--so in that sense I'm not sure if it even has an equivalent in other languages.

I'd be surprised, though, if it didn't simply have its own origins in (old) English.


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Brian,

*If you will is an idiom* is used as a way of making a concession in a sentence.

E.g. He wasn't a very honest person, a liar if you will.

[see Italian-English forum]

In English, the future tense is used, but not in French. How is it expressed in other languages?


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## brian

Right, in that case it's like _if you'll allow me to say so,_ or _so to speak_. It doesn't really express any sense of volition. As you can see, in Italian you cannot say _se vuoi_ or anything similar, so that's why I wonder if _wenn Sie wollen_ and _si vous voulez_ are actually equivalents.


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

brian8733 said:


> Right, in that case it's like _if you'll allow me to say so,_ or _so to speak_. It doesn't really express any sense of volition. As you can see, in Italian you cannot say _se vuoi_ or anything similar, so that's why I wonder if _wenn Sie wollen_ and _si vous voulez_ are actually equivalents.


 
Right! _if you will_ <==> _if you allow me_

In French, "si tu veux, si vous voulez, si l'on veut" doesn't 100% express that.


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## Wilma_Sweden

OED explains the phrase like this: "*if you will* is sometimes used parenthetically to qualify a word or phrase: = ‘if you wish it to be so called’, ‘if you choose or prefer to call it so’."

The earliest record of this usage in OED is from 950, i.e. pre-Norman conquest, which I think rules out any direct French influence, don't you think?

Also, bear in mind that the meaning of will as volition rather than future intent goes back to OE. On the other hand, so does the future usage. Most of the Germanic languages have similar verbs, presumably from Indo-European wol-, wel-. From OED: "The most remarkable feature of this vb., besides its many idiomatic and phrasal uses, is its employment as a regular auxiliary of the future tense, which goes back to the OE. period, and may be paralleled in other Germanic languages, e.g. MHG."

I can only vouch for Swedish, where this future auxiliary does not exist. In modern Swedish the meaning is exclusively volition: want, wish, desire.

I think we can safely rule out any direct French influence and conclude that any corresponding phrases in other languages have developed independently of each other.

/Wilma


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## Joannes

brian8733 said:


> The thing is that _if you will_ no longer really expresses volition--at least not to my ears.


I agree. I'd say it doesn't either in any of the other languages that were mentioned that use an equivalent expression to denote the same thing (although in all of those, the *will* part is the 'standard' volition verb). Anyway, my point was that the evolution (from volition to this kind of expression) seems to be a natural one (while I guess it would be hardly conceivable with a future aux). I'm not surprised about the timing Wilma found.

(Btw, in Dutch as well: *as ge wilt*, *zo u wil*.)


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## CapnPrep

Wilma_Sweden said:


> The earliest record of this usage in OED is from 950, i.e. pre-Norman conquest, which I think rules out any direct French influence, don't you think?


The citation from c950 is not an example of the "if you will" we are discussing here, but a simple case of VP ellipsis (but with _will_ = _want_). It's from Matthew 26:39 – in the KJV, it's "let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will."

The first example that might be relevant is:* 1586* _Let us consider if you will in generall._
More clearly: *1696* _Gravity… depends entirely on the constant and efficacious, and, if you will, the supernatural and miraculous Influence of Almighty God._


			
				Wilma_Sweden said:
			
		

> I think we can safely rule out any direct French influence and conclude that any corresponding phrases in other languages have developed independently of each other.


I don't think we have done enough "research" here to conclude anything.


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## Forero

I think the expression "if you will" goes back to the days when "will" was a subjunctive, similar to "if you would" today.  Similarly the expression "if God will"/"if the Good Lord will (it)" has subjunctive "will" rather than indicative "wills".


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## berndf

Forero said:


> I think the expression "if you will" goes back to the days when "will" was a subjunctive, similar to "if you would" today. Similarly the expression "if God will"/"if the Good Lord will (it)" has subjunctive "will" rather than indicative "wills".


Interesting idea but I don't think so. "He will" and "he wills" are to separate verbs, so it is difficult to tell if "if God will" is subjunctive or indicative. But you can make the distinction in the second singular:
Indicative:
_I will_
_Thou *wilt*_
_He/she/it will_
Subjunctive:
_I will_
_Thou *will*_
_He/she/it will_

I looked up a few examples in a Shakespeare corpus and in the King James Version of the Bible. The scan was not exhaustive but I found a few examples and only "if thou wilt". Therefore, unless we find examples of "if thou will" in early modern English or Middle English texts, we would have to conclude that it has always been indicative.


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## Wilma_Sweden

CapnPrep said:


> I don't think we have done enough "research" here to conclude anything.


Agreed, I also admit that my interpretation of OED was rather sloppy. However, I have not seen any compelling evidence that the phrase originated from French, either.

/Wilma


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## Forero

The expression I have heard from those of my grandparent's generation is "if the Good Lord will (it)", both with and without the _it_.  I think this has to be subjunctive.  Even if I had never heard it with the _it_, the change of subject in a context like "James comes back tomorrow if the Good Lord will" does not allow this _will_ to mean "is going to", "is willing to", etc.  It means something like "if God would allow (it)."

So I believe "if you will" (= "if you would allow (it)") is an instance of the same "will" and is not new jargon or a foreign idiom but plain English.

How people used to say this with "thou" might shead some light on the subject, whether they said "if thou wilt", "if thou will", "if thou willst", or "if thou willest", but the modern usage makes sense to me as a fixed expression in the subjunctive.

It does seem presumptuous for a speaker to say "if you will" or "if you please" without any real choice on the listener's part.


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## berndf

Forero said:


> ...but the modern usage makes sense to me as a fixed expression in the subjunctive.
> 
> It does seem presumptuous for a speaker to say "if you will" or "if you please" without any real choice on the listener's part.


I also prefer the subjunctive interpretation; no question about it. But since the topic of this thread is the *origin* of the phrase, I think it would still be relevant to analyse older forms where a true differentiation is possible.


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