# Dubbing conventions in your country



## Diaspora

Are tv shows and films dubbed (voice-overed) in your country or are they subtitled?

In the US, most foreign movies are subtitled, dubbing is rare. DVDs usually come in English, Canadian French, and American Spanish, BluRay also has Portuguese sometimes. 

In the Balkans films are almost always subtitled except movies for children.
There was a movement in Croatia to adapt dubbing for all foreign films but it never happened.

Why are movies dubbed into American and European Spanish versions? I watched both versions and I can understand both.


----------



## Guigo

In Brazil, DVD movies are generally offered with subtitles in Portuguese but if it's a documentary (wildlife, for instance) or an animated movie for children there's the dubbed option. It's also interesting to watch Brazilian movies with English or Spanish subtitles.

In the "open" TV, foreign movies, sitcoms & soap operas are dubbed while in the cable TV you may have both options. Talk-shows, like David Letterman, are mainly subtitled.

Anyway, I dare to say that here there's no general rule.


----------



## palomnik

Diaspora said:


> In the US, most foreign movies are subtitled, dubbing is rare.



This is probably true today, although it was not so true up to 20 years or so ago.

Whether or not a movie shown in the USA is dubbed largely seems to have to do with the presumed audience.  The more likely the movie is to appeal to the art house crowd, the less likely it will be dubbed.

However, movies with mass appeal are likely to be dubbed in; indeed, some movies, like _La Cage aux Folles, _had the curious distinction of having two dubbed in versions in circulation, with different editing, to boot.


----------



## sokol

In German speaking nations:

- Germany: films shown in TV almost exclusively are dubbed (only occasionally you get to see subtitled films or original versions on quality TV stations); some cinemas however also show subtitled films or original versions

- Austria: it is pretty much the same as in Germany and usually there are no dubbed Austrian German versions (there are very few films which are dubbed by Austrian speakers, German dubbing studios have a monopoly on the dubbing market); in Vienna and the bigger provincial towns however subtitled films and original versions are shown in specialised cinemas which usually do not show any dubbed versions at all

- Switzerland: subtitled versions are preferred in cinema while in TV dubbed versions are not uncommon

Documentaries oftentimes are not dubbed but shown either with subtitles or a voice-over translation.


----------



## Hulalessar

In Spain almost all foreign language films shown on TV are dubbed into Spanish. A law was passed in Franco's time requiring films to be dubbed. Whether the law is still current I don't know, but the practice continues with the occasional exception for an "art" film.


----------



## Miguel Antonio

Hulalessar said:


> In Spain almost all foreign language films shown on TV are dubbed into Spanish. A law was passed in Franco's time requiring films to be dubbed. Whether the law is still current I don't know, but the practice continues with the occasional exception for an "art" film.


I don't think that law is in force any longer, otherwise we wouldn't be able to watch anything in its original version, as was the case in Franco's time. Dubbing back then also provided an opportunity for censorship. "Mogambo" was famous, where a situation of adultery was disguised leading to implied  incest!


----------



## curly

In Ireland a large majority of foreign films are subtitled. I think that it's partly due to the fact that most of our foreign films are American or British, so there's obviously no need.

 Dubbed films, particularly old Chinese martial arts films, are considered silly because of lack of coordination between mouth movement and sound. There are a few comedy series that make fun of them such as "Badly Dubbed Porn" and "Soupy Norman".

Personally I find dubbed films very disturbing to watch whereas subtitles feel a bit more natural. 

I've noticed that lots of television and cinema in France is dubbed. People, to me, seem so used to it that they sometimes don't notice that a film is dubbed.


----------



## RaLo18

In Israel, dubbing is very rare, especially on TV. Only animated children's shows are dubbed (in most cases). Children's movies are sometimes available dubbed, but all foreign movies are always available subtitled.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

curly said:


> I've noticed that lots of television and cinema in France is dubbed. People, to me, seem so used to it that they sometimes don't notice that a film is dubbed.



This is true, however I notice those who speak English (or another foreign language) tend to find it more annoying than those who do not, my girlfriend for example tends to avoid dubbed films where possible. I myself greatly dislike dubbed material, even if I have gotten somewhat more used to it since coming to France. 

Nevertheless, it feels rather surreal to watch a film where the facial movements are almost laughably out of sync with the real thing. In France you unfortunately have virtually no hope of finding anything on national TV in V.O. even if cinemas in bigger cities generally have showings of more popular films in the original language.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

Diaspora said:


> Why are movies dubbed into American and European Spanish versions? I watched both versions and I can understand both.


 

In Spain we can perfectly understand a Latin American Spanish version, with the exception of some few words or local expressions but people here feel more confortable with our Spanish accent.
I know there are different Latin American accents. I really mean an accent that  people know it is not from Spain and it is supposed to come from somewhere beyond the ocean.
I suppose it is the same in Latin America, they do not feel comfortable with the European Spanish accent.
In the sixties Tv movies were aired in Spain with a Latin American dubbing but many people disapproved it and since the seventies until now everything is dubbed in Spain.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

As Pablo has wirtten, here in Mexico almost all children movies are dubbed, because all the jokes or situations wouldn't be understood. because sometimes jokes are so american..., about our spanish one day I saw a movie in European Spanish and believe me, even I could understans everythink it just sounds so funny and phony for me that I prefer to watch it in my accent or in english.

Tv shows are dubbed all the time, but u have the SAP choice so u can hear it in the original language, I'll havet o say sometimes dubbed shows are not so bad, for example The nanny or Bones, has excelent voices for their characters in spanish so it's sounds perfect, but sometimes the voices are not good and that's why u prefer to watch them in english.


----------



## Hulalessar

I think that the reason that films are dubbed in Spain and France is simply because so many English language films are shown. There are some great French and Spanish film makers but they have not made enough films to fill the airwaves and they certainly do not make blockbusters. Native English speakers are a bit spoilt. They may prefer watching foreign language films with subtitles, but I think they would soon get a bit tired of it if the majority of the films they watched had subtitles.


----------



## JGreco

I don't think we would get tired of foreign films if they were all subtitled. It is the complete opposite here in the states. It is always seen as a joke if a film is dubbed into English here in the states. An example is the dubbing of many Asian films into English annoy the heck out of many here. We just simply prefer to here the natural sound of the actors voice. Even the best dubbing into English still sounds strange to our ears. There is only one genre exception when it comes to dubbing. Most Americans would prefer to hear Japanese anime dubbed into English than the original Japanese. It may be because the people who specifically dub in that genre are very good at dubbing Japanese Anime. It is the only dubbed genre that I can actually stand.


----------



## Carfer

In Portugal, only children's movies and a few documentaries are dubbed, everything else being subtitled.


----------



## HUMBERT0

I’ve seen dubbed films into English and the end result is horrid in my opinion, the voices don’t match with the characters or with what they’re saying, and they speak with an accent; especially when I compare it with dubbing into Spanish (movies or shows dubbed into European Spanish are not well received, the voices sound kinda artificial, and colloquial speech/ phrases are different). You often don’t see/hear that poor quality of dubbing here like the one I’ve seen in the US, they do make a greater effort to match movement of lips with the speech that you hear, however I do prefer to watch movies in their original language with subtitles.

Kids movies are dubbed, movies that are for a wider audience may come in both formats, the moviegoer can pick which movie show to see, usually bilingual people (Spanish/English) in this case (the majority of movies that come from the outside are in English, although not all) prefer them in English with subtitles.


----------



## Joannes

In French speaking Belgium, it's the same as in France: dubbing everywhere.

In Flanders, subtitles are used. On TV practically all programmes in different languages are subtitled, except some children's movies that are dubbed (but still many of the VRT's broadcastings for children have subtitles..) I'm not really sure if children's movies that come out on DVD have dubbed versions in Dutch..

Animated movies and TV-shows can have Dutch voice-overs but it depends on the audience. For example, shows like _The Simpsons_ or _Family Guy_ are subtitled, while Disney animation series are 'dubbed'. Dubbed shows often only have Northern Dutch speakers (i.e. from the Netherlands) but that seems to be changing and many animated movies that come out on DVD have a Dutch _and_ a Flemish version apart from the original English. The reasons are the same as the ones mentioned for the different Spanish versions. (One movie for which a Flemish version was indispensable was _Chicken Run_, a movie which all sociolinguists should love.)

Documentaries often get a voice-over in Dutch, sometimes even when the narrator stars in it himself, but not when it's someone famous like Sir David Attenborough, for example.

Personally, I like it that we don't dub here. I like to hear the true voices of the actors and not sixteen dubbers over and over again . Besides, the benefits of subtitles for second language learning have been proved by scientists.


----------



## curly

Do you think dubbing is used as a sort of linguistic protectionist measure? In the same genre of France's law requiring at least 25% French language in any given hour of radio broadcasting?


----------



## shawnee

I was about to say that all foreign television here in Australia is subtitled then I remembered the Japanese series 'Iron Chef'! The dubbing on that show reaches such heights of ridiculousness that laughing at the accents becomes more important than the object of the show itself. On the other hand I've noticed that when watching a subtitled movie I will often adjust the volume so as not to miss the spoken language even if I don't understand it.


----------



## W. Chopin

On Russian TV, all foreign films and programmes are dubbed. 
It seems to me that there are about 20 people who do the dubbing for all the films in Russia and their voices are so instantly recognisable that it distracts you from watching the film. I prefer to buy DVD movies which are generally subtitled. It gives me a chance to practice the language while listening to the film or reading the subtitles. 
Some cinemas in Moscow show films in their original version or with Russian subtitles. Even if you know very little, it can be very helpful to go to see movies with subtitles. If you see translated what the people are saying in a film, you understand more of what you hear. It gives you some passive knowledge of other languages.


----------



## Gwan

It's almost all subtitling here as well so not much to add to the discussions above except to point out the *most* annoying of all (in my opinion) which I saw often on reality shows in France - they keep the original English soundtrack and dub over the top, so you can hear both. For someone who is a native English speaker and speaks okay but not perfect French it was a nightmare to watch, because I couldn't help but strain my ears to hear the English under the French and end up not understanding either language!


----------



## Miguelillo 87

By the way We also have to make the statment almost everybody here (in this fourm) likes to learn languages and more than one speaks two or more languages, but a lot of people in my country and I supposed in yours, not have this preference and they rather to watch the film in a language they undersand 'cause they are not interested in lerning anything so sometimes it's more tired for them to watch and read a movie than only to watch it and fully enojoy it


----------



## SDLX Master

Here we get both, dubbed and subtitled and it is up to the viewer to decide which one you want to watch, and that is applicable to movies and DVDs. I particularly prefer movies with the original language.


----------



## Outlandish

I'm addicted to foreign soap from various cultures. I saw many soap tv series from Latin America, central Asia, Korea, Japan, and many other places.

I adore watching them with subtitles and never dubbed. They are so so so enjoyable in their original form and very phony when dubbed. However, some Arab audiences love them dubbed, I have no idea why!


----------



## Anna_Barcelona

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> In the sixties Tv movies were aired in Spain with a Latin American dubbing but many people disapproved it *and since the seventies until now everything is dubbed in Spain.*


 
Well, this isn't completely true... I grew up in the 80's and I remember that virtually all of the cartoons I watched on TV when I was a kid - specially Warner Bros. stuff - were dubbed in Latin American Spanish. Remember Piolín (Tweety) and his "me pareció ver un lindo gatito"?  Or Yogi bear, who had "emparedados" instead of "bocadillos" or "sandwiches"?

I guess that buying the dubbed versions straight away was cheaper for TVE than re-dubbing them, at least at that time...


----------



## HBZ55

In my country Tunisia, dubbing is for documentaries, Mexican soap operas and more recently Turkish ones, and some channels air dubbed versions of American TV shows in French with or without Arabic subtitles.
The channels I watch the most are in English with Arabic subtitles, and that really benefited my passive and to a lesser degree active understanding of the English language.


----------



## Sepia

W. Chopin said:


> On Russian TV, all foreign films and programmes are dubbed.
> It seems to me that there are about 20 people who do the dubbing for all the films in Russia and their voices are so instantly recognisable that it distracts you from watching the film. I prefer to buy DVD movies which are generally subtitled. It gives me a chance to practice the language while listening to the film or reading the subtitles.
> Some cinemas in Moscow show films in their original version or with Russian subtitles. Even if you know very little, it can be very helpful to go to see movies with subtitles. If you see translated what the people are saying in a film, you understand more of what you hear. It gives you some passive knowledge of other languages.




Huh? There are stil lots of films/TV-seriies on networks like RPR or "1"" (=important Russian TV networks)that are neither dubbed nor subtitled, rather than being voiceovered by something like an interpreter talking like one would normally expect it in a documentary.


----------



## SaveTheManatees

I'm in the US. When it comes to DVDs, they're almost always subtitled, except Chinese movies which often come with a dub option as well. 

Foreign movies on TV are also usually subtitled, with the exception (again) of Chinese movies. Only the more recent movies out of China are shown in Chinese, and sometimes even the brand new ones are dubbed over. Finding a Jet Li movie from 2000 or earlier in the original language is nearly impossible. =P


----------



## Grop

Everything is dubbed in France, but you may expect to find the original version plus subtitles on most* DVDs.

* Where most is probably > 95%.


----------



## Anatoli

Dubbed or subtitled affects how foreign movies are perceived. In *Russia*, most foreign movies are dubbed and there is a big interest in different kinds of movies. In *Australia*, movies are subtitles and general population have little idea about foreign movies, some simply refuse or unable to watch subtitles movies.

There's also a *voiceover *by just one or a few readers, which is not very good but still more preferable if it's a good quality. I watched the French Napoleon series with the Russian voiceover (multiple readers) - great job!

Subtitled movies are an excellent method to learn foreign languages but they also discourage a large number of people.



HBZ55 said:


> ...
> The channels I watch the most are in English with Arabic subtitles, and that really benefited my passive and to a lesser degree active understanding of the English language.


I wonder if foreign movies were all dubbed in Fus-ha (standard Arabic) in Arabic countries, then people would know it better than they do now and it would enjoy a greater popularity.

Dubbed movies are bad news for foreigners wishing to watch American movies in English. So in Russia, I hear it's hard to find cinemas where movies are not dubbed.

In Japan they dub a lot of movies, which may be bad news again for foreigners. I enjoyed watching some old movies I know in Japanese, for me it was fun because I could follow what they were saying much easier (Japanese is one of the languages I study).


----------



## b00nish

In (german speaking) Switzerland the situation is as follows:

Swiss TV: 
Foreign tv shows often come in 'Zweikanalton', that means that you can chose between the german dubbed version and the original language by selecting the audio channel on your television. Late in the evening there are sometimes movies/shows in original language with subtitles.

German TV (since the majority of tv channels here are form germany):
Usually more ore like everything is dubbed.

Cinema:
If you live in a city with more than just a handful of cinemas, you usually can chose between going to a presentation in original language with german and french subtitles or going to a dubbed presentation. The kids tendentially go for the dubbed ones while I have the impression that a lot of adults (like me) are preferring the subtitled versions.

DVD:
They often come packed with the original and the german dubbed soundtrack. Sometimes there are even more languages included. Plus there are often plenty of subtitles. But it depends on the DVD.


----------



## Paolo Yogurt

In Italy, we use to dub pretty much everything. All the movies coming out in theaters and TV are dubbed. 

It is also extremely hard to find theaters that put on subtitled movies.


----------



## kirsitn

In Norway everything is subtitled except for children's movies (target audience < 8-10 years old). Animated movies which appeal to both children and grown ups (like Nemo and Chicken run) are often shown in both original and dubbed versions. TV shows are never dubbed. 

And although I'm not English, I find dubbed movies seriously annoying. I want to hear the actor's voice even if I don't understand the language.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

Anna_Barcelona said:


> Well, this isn't completely true... I grew up in the 80's and I remember that virtually all of the cartoons I watched on TV when I was a kid - specially Warner Bros. stuff - were dubbed in Latin American Spanish. Remember Piolín (Tweety) and his "me pareció ver un lindo gatito"?  Or Yogi bear, who had "emparedados" instead of "bocadillos" or "sandwiches"?
> 
> I guess that buying the dubbed versions straight away was cheaper for TVE than re-dubbing them, at least at that time...


 

Oh yes, I forgot cartoons. I should have written "almost everything".
I remember La pequeña Lulú in the eighties, saying "vamos a segar el pasto de nuestro jardín" what sounded funny to our Spanish ears.

I suppose they thought that children would not be as demanding as the adults..


----------



## eafkuor

Paolo Yogurt said:


> In Italy, we use to dub pretty much everything. All the movies coming out in theaters and TV are dubbed.
> 
> *It is also extremely hard to find theaters that put on subtitled movies.*


Do they even exist in Italy?


----------



## Dmitry_86

Diaspora said:


> Are tv shows and films dubbed (voice-overed) in your country or are they subtitled?
> 
> In the US, most foreign movies are subtitled, dubbing is rare. DVDs usually come in English, Canadian French, and American Spanish, BluRay also has Portuguese sometimes.
> 
> In the Balkans films are almost always subtitled except movies for children.
> There was a movement in Croatia to adapt dubbing for all foreign films but it never happened.
> 
> Why are movies dubbed into American and European Spanish versions? I watched both versions and I can understand both.



In Russia I have hardly ever seen any film dubbed. The reason for this is that if a film was originally been made in another language (in any one other than Russian) it is always followed by the oral translation in Russian which sometimes "overlaps" with the speech in the original language. I mean that sometimes when watching such films we hear Russian but also some short pieces of the original language - it means that the translation lacks synchronism. 

At the same time I remember one or two movies that were broadcast without the presenter's Russian translation and indeed there were subtitles visible at the bottom of the T.V. screen. I cannot name these films now because itr was rather long ago and I did not pay much attention to them, but, definitely, that films were world masterpieces and most people wanted to listen to the original words, songs - everything connected with it. Sometimes words are not so necessary as picture and the plot is quite understandable. This reminds me of Joe Dassen's songs in French - I hardly ever understood anything except a few words but I found the music and the songs themselves truly magnificent!!!


----------



## Paolo Yogurt

eafkuor said:


> Do they even exist in Italy?



I didn't rule out this possibility so that I couldn't get contradicted.

In fact, I've never heard of them in my whole life.


----------



## Hakro

I think this topic has been discussed here, not so long time ago.

Anyway, in Finland the movies and TV shows or films are *never* dubbed, except for kids' programs. 

This is (one of the reasons) why the Finns learn quite easily foreign languages, especially English.


----------



## Horazio

Movies are dubbed into spanish using the central american accent that sounds horrible for all those spaniards including me who are not familiar with that accent. Go figure carribean accent exported to the river plate, people would rather read the subtitles !

In italy all movies are dubbed. I notice frequent translation mistakes though...
I remember hearing "Vuoi il CONDIZIONATORE per i capelli ?" which is a wrong translation of "hair conditioner".

Another weird thing is a sort of "movie language" that you only hear in italy with foreign movies. There are words like "sbirro" ("cop/policeman") or many others that i've never heard in real life unless someone was INTENTIONALLY wanting to sound like he was from a movie.


----------



## Zsanna

In Hungary a lot of films are dubbed although there has been some effort made to do subtitling films even on television at a time... (Now mainly for DVDs.) 
My experience is that there are less films with subtitles in the cinemas now than around the 90s (maybe because of the exorbitant prices for the entrance tickets) and they even seem to disappear from the telly screen (even if there has never been a lot to start with).

This, however, has nothing to do with the enthusiasm or the level of wanting to learn foreign languages which is certainly more important now than ever before.

Also, we used to be very good at dubbing films. Some of the films had become better than the original due to the exceptional dubbing. (E.g. The Flintsones or the old Saint series...) 
I noticed that the Italians keep a trace of "who does the voice of..." a certain character, it was the same in Hungary for a long time. (And a lot of people like a particular actor just for his/her voice.)
But even in France, in recent times, for example Bruce Willis's French voice has been very popular - which was used by a lot of advertisers who wanted to make sure that their advert would surely be successful.
(Now there's a proof - if we ever wanted one - for the use of dubbing! )


----------



## Montesacro

eafkuor said:


> Paolo Yogurt said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Italy, we use to dub pretty much everything. All the movies coming out in theaters and TV are dubbed.
> 
> It is also extremely hard to find theaters that put on subtitled movies.
> 
> 
> 
> Do they even exist in Italy?
Click to expand...

 
Certo che ci sono.


----------



## Grop

Zsanna said:


> I noticed that the Italians keep a trace of "who does the voice of..." a certain character, it was the same in Hungary for a long time. (And a lot of people like a particular actor just for his/her voice.)
> But even in France, in recent times, for example Bruce Willis's French voice has been very popular - which was used by a lot of advertisers who wanted to make sure that their advert would surely be successful.
> (Now there's a proof - if we ever wanted one - for the use of dubbing! )



Indeed, each famous foreign actor has their own French dubber, who is consistenly used in different movies. These folks aren't really famous (I couldn't name any of them) but it clearly sounds funny if a dubbed movie features an actor with an unusual French voice.

Some dubbers have quite a different voice from the actor they dub; Sylvester Stallone for intance sounds very macho when dubbed in French, which sort of makes him viewed as a ridiculous stereotype.


----------



## Zsanna

Grop said:


> Some dubbers have quite a different voice from the actor they dub; Sylvester Stallone for intance sounds very macho when dubbed in French, which sort of makes him viewed as a ridiculous stereotype.


 
On the other hand the main actor in Cameleon was exactly the opposite...

I appreciate very much the French voices because there is often a very good correspondance between the "type" and the voice. (It is not the dubber editors' fault if later on a character is "stereotyped"...)

For example NCIS is much better in French than in English as far as the voices are concerned. You can tell the characters much better apart.
(Now it turns out what sort of things one watches on telly!)


----------



## Miguelillo 87

Zsanna said:


> On the other hand the main actor in Cameleon was exactly the opposite...
> 
> I appreciate very much the French voices because there is often a very good correspondance between the "type" and the voice. (It is not the dubber editors' fault if later on a character is "stereotyped"...)
> 
> For example NCIS is much better in French than in English as far as the voices are concerned. You can tell the characters much better apart.
> (Now it turns out what sort of things one watches on telly!)


 
In Mexico it's the same, one voice try to be always tie to an actor, and sometimes when the voice it's used for other actor, you're like...Hey this is not the voice of... 

By the way Bones, it's better in spanish than english, voices just match perfect and in English Brennan doesn't sound as intelligent as in spanish


----------



## rusita preciosa

Grop said:


> Indeed, each famous foreign actor has their own French dubber, who is consistenly used in different movies. These folks aren't really famous (I couldn't name any of them) but it clearly sounds funny if a dubbed movie features an actor with an unusual French voice.
> 
> Some dubbers have quite a different voice from the actor they dub; Sylvester Stallone for intance sounds very macho when dubbed in French, which sort of makes him viewed as a ridiculous stereotype.


I have a friend who is an executive with an ad agency. A few years ago he was shooting a commerical for a French carmaker. He said that he hired Harrison Ford to do the voiceover. When I asked how he got such a huge budget, he said that was not HF himself, but the local actor who always dubbed HF and whose voice the French audience knows as HF's


----------



## Mishe

Almost no dubbing at all in Slovenia, except for some cartoons for really small children. It's the same elsewhere in ex-Yugoslavia as far as I know. I prefer subtitling to dubbing anytime. Dubbed TV shows, sitcoms and films just don't have the same effect when they are dubbed. And voice is of course the actor's or the actress's tool, so the one doing dubbing has to be appropriately acting-coached, unless it becomes completely phoney. In the end, I think it can never be the same as the actor's real voice. 

I saw a dubbed Polish film, there was the same voice for all actors and actresses. Hillarious.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Mishe said:


> I saw a dubbed Polish film, there was the same voice for all actors and actresses. Hillarious.



I too have seen this while in Poland and found it highly bizarre. The strangest thing is that the voice employed is generally monotonous and shows no emotion irrespective of what's happening on screen.
I was led to believe that it's down to the networks simply not having enough money to employ professionally trained dubbers, however I have no idea whether that's true or not.


----------



## Mishe

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I too have seen this while in Poland and found it highly bizarre. The strangest thing is that the voice employed is generally monotonous and shows no emotion irrespective of what's happening on screen.



Exactly. It is very bizarre indeed. And I think it's also probably due to the lack of money.


----------



## Zsanna

In my mind (and about 15 years ago) it was very closely connected to the apparition of the commercial channels which were in a hurry to show one "Western" film after the other to bother about providing proper translation. 
At the beginning such hurry (and the lack of money) could be understood. 
What puzzles me is how come they still survive doing the same thing _now_?


----------



## Sepia

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I too have seen this while in Poland and found it highly bizarre. The strangest thing is that the voice employed is generally monotonous and shows no emotion irrespective of what's happening on screen.
> I was led to believe that it's down to the networks simply not having enough money to employ professionally trained dubbers, however I have no idea whether that's true or not.


 

I know what you mean and I mentioned that with reference to Russian television. But would your really call that dubbing? I'd call it simultaneous translation. At least I would not use the German word for dubbing to describe this, because there are no actors playing the parts in audio and speaking in synch with the actors in the film.


----------



## Istriano

No dubbing in Croatia, it's excellent since you can learn many languages (there are even German and Mexican soap operas).

We can normally get Italian tv's here in Istria, and everything is dubbed, but I like watching it since I love the TV accent (lingua toscana in bocca romana).
Our Italian is dialect-flavored.


----------



## Outlandish

Hi guys!
_*I would like to ask a related question about dubbing.*
_

I wonder what are the standards, regulations, and steps which the movie goes through before its display in theaters or tv channels? For example, how is it possible that the translation of every quotation or sentence (?) doesn't overrun the time of the original sayings? It seems to me that they just keep revising it over and over again.
There must be also other regulations in dubbing pertaining to every procedure in this process which I would like to find about, thanks every one.


----------



## xyontheodore

In Indonesia, Telenovelas from South AMerica are often dubbed since many housewives watch this kind of film. Children animation movies from Japan ,like "Doraemon" or other mangas, and from English like "Teletubbies" are dubbed also. If it is a box office movie like _Titanic_,It is rarely being dubbed since it might lose some essential part of the movie.


----------



## Anna_Barcelona

Sepia said:


> I know what you mean and I mentioned that with reference to Russian television. But would your really call that dubbing? I'd call it simultaneous translation.


 
I'd call that voice-over, because the speaker is not actually interpreting or translating simultaneously. He's reading from a translated script.


----------



## Sepia

Mishe said:


> Almost no dubbing at all in Slovenia, except for some cartoons for really small children. It's the same elsewhere in ex-Yugoslavia as far as I know. I prefer subtitling to dubbing anytime. Dubbed TV shows, sitcoms and films just don't have the same effect when they are dubbed. ...


 

Not the SAME, but they can be just as good as the original, only different. It all depends on the quality of the script and the actors dubbing the original actors. 

If the scrpt re-writers only try to copy what was in the original, it is bound to be pretty bad. However, if they are creative and try to bring new jokes, puns and whatever into the script and thus sometimes more than compensate for what is lost in translation, and if the dubbing-actors are good, the result can be excellent. 

A good and wellknown example of this is the German-language version of "The Persuaders". If one knows both languages one should really watch both ...


----------



## Outsider

Some more replies can be found in this older thread.


----------



## trance0

Mishe said:


> Almost no dubbing at all in Slovenia, except for some cartoons for really small children. It's the same elsewhere in ex-Yugoslavia as far as I know.




Well, this has changed somewhat in the recent years. Nowdays pretty much all Hollywood cartoons are dubbed in Slovene and even some films, usually children/family comedies, like Garfield and some others(but in our cinemas you always have a choice to watch either subtitled versions or dubbed ones). We also have all the commercials dubbed and most of the documentary films. There was a debate not long ago whether we should start dubbing all movies and series into Slovene, but I don`t quite know how this ended/will end. Some opponents of dubbing say that Slovene as a language is special and that it would be very difficult to correctly apply Slovene dubbing to the (usually) English speaking actors in films. This claim doesn`t seem quite plausible to me, at least not entirely since I have seen fairly good results. Another often claimed minus of dubbing is the negative impact it would have on foreign language learning(learning through watching of movies). Especially the accent and pronunciation would suffer if children weren`t exposed enough to foreign languages through TV. I agree with this, but aside from that I see nothing wrong with dubbing. Especially since in the digital era everyone can choose for himself in what language(dubbed or subtitled) he wants to watch movies/series. There is nothing wrong with giving people more choice, especially small children and some elderly people would likely appreciate dubbing. I would however be against dubbing only, like this is mostly the case in for example the German speaking countries. It is great if you have both options available for most movies/series, although I doubt this will ever actually happen in Slovenia as we are a small nation and additional/extensive dubbing means extra costs, which just might be a wee bit too high for us.


----------



## Piotr_WRF

Anna_Barcelona said:


> I'd call that voice-over, because the speaker is not actually interpreting or translating simultaneously. He's reading from a translated script.



Yes, voice-over is used almost exclusively on Polish TV. Contrary to Russia, I believe, where there is a male speaker for the male actors and a female one for the actresses, in Poland there's only one male speaker for all actors. See also this post of mine in a related thread.


----------



## Porteño

When I lived in Brazil, all TV programmes were dubbed and seemed to have only a handful of voices so it didn't matter if it was Sir Lawrence Olivier or Brad Pitt in the movie, the voice was the same - intensely annoying. I think at the time the law demanded dubbing for all programmes. However, in the cinema it was different and the movies were sub-titled.

In Argentina we still have a lot of sub-titled movies on TV although I see a trend towards dubbing. I fear that our current 'ultra-nationalistic' administration might have something to do with that. In the cinema you can often have the choice between seeing the dubbed version or one that is sub-titled and the cinema adverts advise you in advance.


----------



## thatgirlinitaly

I am an American living in Italy.

Here, everything is dubbed. On TV, movies, everywhere. I keep flipping channels hoping to see a movie in English with Italian subtitles just for a brief respite and the chance to hear my language again, but to no avail of course.

Italy is famous for its dubbing. I must say, it's done well, and actors will have the same voice actor for years so you begin to associate the Italian voice with the actor. However, if I'm watching an American show or movie in Italy and I hear Italian voices when I know what the real ones sound like, it's maddening to me!


----------



## anaczz

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I too have seen this while in Poland and found it highly bizarre. The strangest thing is that the voice employed is generally monotonous and shows no emotion irrespective of what's happening on screen.



I saw this in Russia too, but was very useful to me, cause in the brazilian soaps I could hear the original voices under the russian ones and was good to learn some russian expressions.


----------



## slowik

I'm surprised not to see any answers from the Polish because as far as I know we are an example of a very specific localization technique called voice-over. 

When it's done, you hear both the original sound (though it's not the most prominent thing) and a voice of one (rarely two) person saying everything that needs to be translated. It's funny but I'm so used to that that it would be weird to turn on the TV and not see (hear) it.


----------



## sokol

I knew of this Polish way of voice-over which even is used for TV series and films because a friend of mine told me about it (and naturally found it extremely weird ).

Especially it was weird, he told me, that the same voice (say, a male voice) is used for both male and female voices.

This voice-over synchronising is done in German only with documentaries where it is preferred over dubbing or subtitling.


----------



## Hakro

slowik said:


> When it's done, you hear both the original sound (though it's not the most prominent thing) and a voice of one (rarely two) person saying everything that needs to be translated. It's funny but I'm so used to that that it would be weird to turn on the TV and not see (hear) it.


Lately I've been watching the Formula One programs from a German channel. They have a similar system: when interviewing in English, they don't mute the original sound totally but it's overrun by a simultaneous interpretation.

I can understand English quite easily and I understand German, too, but two foreign languages at the same time are nearly impossible to understand. 

I believe that the natives (English or German in this case) don't have such problems, but I still can't see what's the point of leaving the foreign language to be heard in the background - just for confusing? How about the natives who have difficulties to understand their own language? (There are such persons in every nation.)

If it's considered important to hear the voice of the interviewed person, the best method (in my opinion) is to give a few of his/her first words, then to mute it and give the interpretation. That's how they do it in Finnish broadcasting channels (as subtitles are impossible).


----------



## slowik

sokol said:


> I knew of this Polish way of voice-over which even is used for TV series and films


It's not used even in TV series and films. It's universally used there. If it was used only on live transmissions t wouldn't be weird at all. Polish-style voice-over is a professional translation read by one person over original sound 

Still, I recall some shows and movies on very specific channels broadcast with subtitles. Voice-over remains a choice of nearly all tv channels. It's also often available on DVDs. 

A few days ago I saw a clip on YouTube with the owners of all the popular voices used in voice-over. It was weird to see these people after having listened to them on a daily basis since I remember. 

Oh, and I kind of envy the Scandinavian. It must be great for a learner of foreign languages to have everything available with original sound and professional subtitles.


----------



## djmc

This often happens on French television. The speaker talks in his own language and a translator breaks in after a few seconds in French and the original speaker is muted but not enough that it is not confusing.


----------



## sokol

slowik said:


> It's not used even in TV series and films. It's universally used there.


Oh but that's what I meant: it isn't so unusual to do voice-over in documentaries, or also in interviews; what IS so exceptional is that _even_ in films and tv series this is done. 
So no disagreement, just a misunderstanding.


----------



## Uncle Bob

W. Chopin said:


> It seems to me that there are about 20 people who do the dubbing for all the films in Russia and their voices are so instantly recognisable that it distracts you from watching the film.


 In France the actors who dub films also do the voices for advertisments on the television. It can be amusing: "Oh, that's Bruce Willis (or whoever) advertising tooth paste (or whatever)".


----------



## Miguelillo 87

Uncle Bob said:


> In France the actors who dub films also do the voices for advertisments on the television. It can be amusing: "Oh, that's Bruce Willis (or whoever) advertising tooth paste (or whatever)".


 
Sometimes here in Mexico happens the same, there is a voice in a vitamines commercial, which it's the same of one agent in Criminal minds serie.


----------



## Sepia

In countries that hardly ever dub movies you often have movie actors speaking off voices in documentaries. Or even famous singers - like Annie Lennox.

However, TV ads in dubbed versions? OK, they exist, but I can't imagine them as the general rule ... for various reasons.

I could think of at least as many TV ads where less known actors actually act in front of the camera and earn the rest of their living voice-acting/dubbing foreign movies.


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Sometimes here in Mexico happens the same, there is a voice in a vitamines commercial, which it's the same of one agent in Criminal minds serie.



And sometimes the voice actor can to raise more expectations than the movie/show itself...

As Dragon ball evolution movie with Mario Castañeda as Goku's voice and Carlos Segundo as Piccolo's one (the original guys than dubbed them in the anime).

Also voice actors are pretty well accepted in manga/anime expos, although they getting some recognition is a recent thing...


----------



## chrysalid

In Turkey, foreign films and series have always been dubbed. However, there is a TV channel that has been on for 7-8 years now where all the series and films are subtitled. At cinemas, films are almost always with subtitles excluding the ones for children.


----------



## Rallino

chrysalid said:


> In Turkey, foreign films and series have always been dubbed. However, there is a TV channel that has been on for 7-8 years now where all the series and films are subtitled. At cinemas, films are almost always with subtitles excluding the ones for children.



Indeed. On TV, everything is dubbed in Turkey, and I think they do a good job. But In Cinema everything is subtitled, although occasionally, you may find some movies that are present in both original and subtitled in different rooms (saloons?).

In an Azerbaijani TV, I had watched a movie in which every person -men, kids, women, was dubbed by one man; and when the kid's little dog barked, the dubber also barked ! That was hilarious


----------



## xmarabout

Joannes said:


> In French speaking Belgium, it's the same as in France: dubbing everywhere.


It is not (or is no more) always so. If you want to go to the cinema, for the most important movies, you will have the two versions: one dubbed, the other one with subtitles in two different rooms. The same for the public TV, for some movies, you can see the one dubbed one the 1st Channel (la Une) and the original version with subtitles on the second (la Deux).

Most of the DVDs are sell with 3 versions: French, English, Dutch with a lot of options for subtitles.


----------



## Hillbilly

I have watched over sixty Italian films, and most come to the US now with English subtitles.  I hate it when they are dubbed into English.

However:  through the years, Italian film makers became experts at dubbing.  In the old days, everything was dubbed.  The film was shot first; sound was added later.  Not only that, directors often employed foreign actors who spoke their lines in their native languages.  On some sets three or more languages were spoken by the actors.

One of my favorite films is Visconti's _Il Gattopardo,_ in which Burt Lancaster did a wonderful job in the lead role.  Now the full movie is available with Italian soundtrack and English subtitles.  One hardly notices that Lancaster's lips don't move with the words.  

The bonus material includes excerpts of the dubbed version that was originally released in the US.  Lancaster's own voice in the English language just doesn't fit the part at all!


----------



## Julz

shawnee said:


> I was about to say that all foreign television here in Australia is subtitled then I remembered the Japanese series 'Iron Chef'! The dubbing on that show reaches such heights of ridiculousness that laughing at the accents becomes more important than the object of the show itself.


I think it's crucial to mention here though that the dubbing is obviously by an American cast and I'm sure if it weren't for that we'd probably just have the show in English subtitles. I can't watch that show because of the voice-over; it annoys me way too much.
All foreign movies released in Australia are with the original audio track and English subtitles (occasionally others, such as Jet Li's Fearless, which also included European French and European Spanish language tracks and subtitles). I noticed that the US DVD of this movie has the English dub on it, but we do not have this on our DVD.
I've also noticed that in the USA many foreign movies are dubbed into English (as mentioned in previous posts, the movies that aren't "arty"). Ones I remember seeing with English dubs on the DVD (and English titles) are _Låt den rätta komma in (Let the right ones in)_, _In 3 Tagen bist du tot (Dead in 3 days)_, and _Fritt Vilt (Cold prey)_.
I've only ever seen one foreign film DVD in Australia with an English language track - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I have to admit, I thought the dubbing matched the lip movements well and didn't sound _*as*_ out-of-place...but probably because they didn't have these broad (and fake-sounding) American accents. It was dubbed by an Asian cast. I think I've seen this movie broadcast in the English language on TV here as well as original and subtitled, but I prefer to watch foreign movies with original audio and subtitles.

I know I'll probably repeat a lot of what's already been said, but here are some of my personal observations and just some things I'd like to add:

*Dutch & Flemish*
I have to agree with the observation that Flemish dubs are becoming more popular - I also have noticed that. Disney often doesn't dub in Flemish, maybe only a dozen films come to mind where Disney has dubbed in Flemish.

*French:*
Many children's movies are now also being dubbed into Quebecois French, compared to ten years ago when studios such as Dreamworks were only dubbing it once in France. This caused some difficulty for the young audiences in French-Canada due to the vast difference in accents.

*Portuguese:*
It once used to be that a lot of movies (for adults too) were dubbed in Portugal too, but in recent years this has stopped and so the only Portuguese dub we are finding is from Brazil (for movies such as James Bond). Also some of the older children's movies (such as Land Before Time or Balto) were only dubbed into Brazilian Portuguese.

*Spanish:*
Most of the "Classic" Disney movies (such as Fox & the Hound, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Jungle Book) were dubbed once in Latin American Spanish but now all the new movies are dubbed into two different varieties of Spanish. I think maybe some old movies are re-dubbed into European Spanish but this doesn't seem so for Disney.

*German:*
On rare occasions movies are dubbed into Swiss German (Babe, Stuart Little) and Austrian German (Babe, Shrek 2, Little Mermaid, Chicken Little) though with the latter usually only one or two voices change while the rest of the cast remain the same as the German cast.

*Ukrainian:*
I am not 100% certain for a fact, but I believe Ukrainian dubbing came about after the split of the USSR - before then there was only the Russian dub available. Many of the more recent and highly popular movies are being dubbed into Ukrainian as well as Russian (Shrek the Third, The Dark Knight, Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3).

I've also noticed a recent trend for dubbing in Estonian; usually Dreamworks (Madagascar 2, Shrek 2) or 20th Century (Horton). I've also heard rumours that Disney's G-Force was dubbed into Estonian.




Outlandish said:


> For example, how is it possible that the translation of every quotation or sentence (?) doesn't overrun the time of the original sayings? It seems to me that they just keep revising it over and over again.


Generally speaking, the gist of a sentence is translated but it's not always word-for-word, but the meaning still gets across. Occasionally things are added in or left out to get the sentence to a similar length (or tempo of speech adjusted accordingly). Some studios have a system display set up of scrolling text passing through a "speak" line - once the syllable hits the "speak" line the dubber has to speak that syllable. I'm not sure if this is regular practice but I have seen it in use. I imagine more than anything, experienced voice actors will work out the timing and practice over and over again to perfect the line's timing - there are also voice directors who are with them in recording.



Rallino said:


> In an Azerbaijani TV, I had watched a movie in which every person -men, kids, women, was dubbed by one man; and when the kid's little dog barked, the dubber also barked ! That was hilarious


My dog can bark in all languages, but apparently not in Azerbaijani. I must teach her lol


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Julz said:


> *French:*
> Many children's movies are now also being dubbed into Quebecois French, compared to ten years ago when studios such as Dreamworks were only dubbing it once in France. This caused some difficulty for the young audiences in French-Canada due to the vast difference in accents.



It has always struck me as strange that the majority of films (and even American TV series) shown in Quebec have the accompanying European French dubbing. I would have thought that they, much like the Spaniards, would prefer to hear their own accent(s) and phrases used.

Funnily enough, many English television commercials shown in Ireland are dubbed with an Irish accent to make the product more marketable.


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

Julz said:


> *Spanish:*
> Most of the "Classic" Disney movies (such as Fox & the Hound, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Jungle Book) were dubbed once in Latin American Spanish but now all the new movies are dubbed into two different varieties of Spanish. I think maybe some old movies are re-dubbed into European Spanish but this doesn't seem so for Disney.



Lion King was the first Disney's movie with an European Spanish dub appart from the Latin American dub.
Also, we usually compite for show that our dub is better... so, if you watch in Youtube any clip of a show/movie in one of the Spanish dubs you'll see comments as "Latin Americans must watch all with our dub for learn what's the real spanish" or "Spaniard voice actors have no emotion, and their literal translations suck". 

Now... some of the things I saw about both dubbing "schools"...

European Spanish: Their translations usually are more word-by-word & they try to keep the dialogues closest to the original possible. The way they pronounce the english names is a bit "caractheristic", kinda spanished. Also, as they have no other market appart from Spain itself, they are more free for using their slang & local words as _joder_, _coño_, _tio_, _hostia_, etcetera. They use the standard Madrid's accent though.

Latin American Spanish: Translations can be a bit localized, specially the dialogues that are very "american" humor sense, Mexican voice actors usually converts that jokes for more Mexican or Latin American. In movies and serious shows, names are pronounced closest to the original English way possible, but this doesn't happen in cartoons (specially American ones) where names are spanished or changed totally (Homer is _Homero_, Top Cat is _Don Gato_, Patrick Star is _Patricio Estrella _...). As shows/movies will be watched all around Latin America & the US, studios have to dub with an special accent called "Acento neutro", that's the one used by the media. Also, they try to use the words & phrases that are used in more countries, and refuse the slang (although, Mexican dubs abuses of the slang in cartoons lately).


----------



## Julz

Pedro y La Torre said:


> It has always struck me as strange that the majority of films (and even American TV series) shown in Quebec have the accompanying European French dubbing. I would have thought that they, much like the Spaniards, would prefer to hear their own accent(s) and phrases used.


I believe this is the case mostly because of budget restrictions, however certain examples are present, such as The Simpsons, or the South Park movie, where a Quebec French dub has also been recorded for marketing in North America. In other examples, _some_ Disney movies (e.g. Pocahontas, Tarzan) have been dubbed in Quebec French also, but this generally occurs with a neutral accent. I often prefer this dub to the European French dub, because of the neutralised accent and lack of slang (as with South American Spanish, as stated in the post above this one). Depending on the film, there is often a separate Quebec dub for other movies too; National Treasure, Pirates of the Caribbean and other Hollywood movies but sometimes the European French dub is still used in place (e.g. X-Men Quadrilogy), it depends I think on the translation budget of the movie or the studio.



Mr. P Mosh said:


> European Spanish: Their translations usually are more word-by-word & they try to keep the dialogues closest to the original possible. The way they pronounce the english names is a bit "caractheristic", kinda spanished. Also, as they have no other market appart from Spain itself, they are more free for using their slang & local words as _joder_, _coño_, _tio_, _hostia_, etcetera. They use the standard Madrid's accent though.


I agree completely with you, the Latin American Spanish translation is more adventurous and more enjoyable, I enjoy it far more than the European Spanish (plus the neutral accent is pleasant, because I don't like the Madrid accent very much). I find sometimes that seemingly more effort goes into matching the lip-movements in the Spanish dialogue (sometimes it's difficult to tell it's a dub) and also to matching the voices well (so that they sound more like the original voice).



Pedro y La Torre said:


> Funnily enough, many English television commercials shown in Ireland are dubbed with an Irish accent to make the product more marketable.


I always find these bits of trivia interesting  but I guess it's only the fact of the accent that makes the product more marketable, since English is widely used in Ireland too.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

Julz said:


> * I find sometimes that seemingly more effort goes into matching the lip-movements in the Spanish dialogue (sometimes it's difficult to tell it's a dub*) and also to matching the voices well (so that they sound more like the original voice).
> .


 

This is the reason why we prefer LatAm Spanish dubs, Sometimes in Spanish dubbed movies, the actor is still talking and the spanish voice is off. Also the European Spanish it's so literal.


----------



## carlosch

TV all is spanish latin a. dubs. We get all the spanish dubs from Mexico like the rest of Latin America even though Puerto Rico was the first place were the spanish dubing industry took place and was exported to the rest of the region, the industry died down and Mexico took over with great success until today. 
The dubs from Spain are very disliked here, the voices sound like very old people, lifeless tones.... and then the tight galician accent used in some that is hard on our ears.


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

carlosch said:


> TV all is spanish latin a. dubs. We get all the spanish dubs from Mexico like the rest of Latin America even though Puerto Rico was the first place were the spanish dubing industry took place and was exported to the rest of the region, the industry died down and Mexico took over with great success until today.
> The dubs from Spain are very disliked here, the voices sound like very old people, lifeless tones.... and then the tight galician accent used in some that is hard on our ears.



Mexico's dub monopoly is changing lately... Discovery channel's documentals are dubbed mostly by Argertinian, and Nickelodeon's (and some WB's cartoons) shows & cartons haves mostly Venezuelan dubs.


----------



## TimLA

As mentioned previously, most of the foreign films in the US are dubbed.

Through Bruce Lee, many Chinese films were brought over in the 1970's and 80's, and this led to a whole comedy genre.
Some comedians would pretend to be in a movie, and would speak English for a few words, then they would move their mouths silently,
mimicking the obvious disconnect between what the Chinese actor was saying, and the overlying English.
It was pretty funny at the time. You can see some interesting examples with YouTube.

I believe some of Eastwood's Spaghetti Westerns were partially dubbed.
They were filmed in Spain and used some Spanish speaking actors.
It was funny to watch Eastwood and perhaps other actors speaking English, and in the next frame, seeing a dubbed Spanish speaker.

One of the more interesting examples of dubbing/subtitles was an Irish movie I watched some years ago.
I was rolling through channels at 2AM, and noted a subtitled movie. So I started to watch it, and it turned out to be Irish, with all of the actors speaking English.
But the English had such a heavy Irish accent it required subtitles for the non-Irish.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

TimLA said:


> I believe some of Eastwood's Spaghetti Westerns were partially dubbed.


Last summer when I was in Cali I watched some spaghetti Westerns on Blue ray (Eastwood's and Bud Spencer & Terence Hill 's).
The Italian actors were dubbed by native English speakers, even Spencer and Hill, although they both speak English.





> I was rolling through channels at 2AM, and noted a subtitled movie. So I started to watch it, and it turned out to be Irish, with all of the actors speaking English.
> But the English had such a heavy Irish accent it required subtitles for the non-Irish.


I'm pretty sure it's the same for "Trainspotting": even though the guys actually speak English and not Scottish, they have such a heavy accent that it'd be really hard for an American audience to understand what they say.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

I have heard that Americans had to have some foreign English-language films subtitled but I presumed it was a myth.

Trainspotting for one, excluding the slang, is quite easy to understand, the accents are not _that_ strong.


----------



## Paulfromitaly

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Trainspotting for one, excluding the slang, is quite easy to understand, the accents are not _that_ strong.


Not _that_ strong for an Irish speaker like you or for British people, but maybe heavy enough for American people.


----------



## Grop

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I have heard that Americans had to have some foreign English-language films subtitled but I presumed it was a myth.



Mad Max was apparently dubbed in the US. Including Mel Gibson's voice.


----------



## slowik

A few years ago, when my English was not very good but decent enough to try watching English movies without subtitles I tried to watch Stanley Kubrick's "The Clockwork Orange".
It was completely incomprehensible. Do you by any chance know what accent was used there?


----------



## TimLA

slowik said:


> A few years ago, when my English was not very good but decent enough to try watching English movies without subtitles I tried to watch Stanley Kubrick's "The Clockwork Orange".
> It was completely incomprehensible. Do you by any chance know what accent was used there?


 
I've read the accent for Alex was a combination of a London and cockney.

The problem with "A Clockwork Orange" (a troubling film, but truly remarkable) is that much of the language is contrived (nadsat), derived from Cockney rhyming, and even words taken from Russian - droog - friend, horror show - good, ok.


----------



## JGreco

> I have heard that Americans had to have some foreign English-language  films subtitled but I presumed it was a myth.
> 
> Trainspotting for one, excluding the slang, is quite easy to understand,  the accents are not _that_ strong.




That might of been true a decade or two ago, but now, I do not know any foreign films except *all Asian Films* that are dubbed. Speaking of UK and Irish accents, and foreign English comprehension in films and on TV, since many of the most famous TV presenters and celebrities in The United States are from the UK, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand, the majority of Americans are accustomed to hearing all forms of English on television so the dubbing of the most remote UK accents are unlikely now. In fact BBC America is one of the top networks in the United States so I am pretty sure the average Americans can understand a lot of British slang. The only two English accents that I have heard Americans say they have difficulty comprehending is Indian English, and Jamaican English.


----------



## crome

There used to be a few dubbed TV series I watched when I was a kid (children's programs from Europe, plus "Monkey" from Japan - remember that? ), but apart from that I can't really remember watching anything dubbed. Any foreign language film I've seen has always been with subtitles. I think most people here are just not used to seeing dubbed programs/movies.

I guess with any kind of drama entertainment you have to lose yourself to an extent into what you're watching. You know it's not real, but you can get really into the characters and the situations they find themselves in. This process of making yourself believe what you're seeing is real is harder to do when the voices of the characters and the words you're hearing don't match up. There are usually other incongruities too like cultural references and so on.

The last time I was in Spain I watched some American and British TV programs dubbed into Spanish, and got the same yucky feeling I get with any dubbed stuff. It seems people from mainland Europe are much more used to it as they see so much American stuff dubbed into their own languages, whereas here we just get the original version.

By the way, the thing about the dubbing being done with just one voice for every character seems totally bizarre to me, what's all that about?


----------



## Julz

Paulfromitaly said:


> Not _that_ strong for an Irish speaker like you or for British people, but maybe heavy enough for American people.


We have TV shows from various regions being broadcast regularly. From the anglophone world, we have several English comedies and from time to time shows or movies from Ireland or Scotland and many American TV shows too, even a New Zealand comedy - none of these are subtitled but to the untrained ear, yes, some of the broad accents can be hard to understand. But I grew up hearing English in about 6 different accents, so to me the difference is only like as if it were just two different voices without different accents.
I think sometimes the American market is spoiled because there are so many great shows and movies that come out of USA but for us it's weird to see a show or movie where someone speaks our own accent.



crome said:


> By the way, the thing about the dubbing being done with just one voice for every character seems totally bizarre to me, what's all that about?


Budget restrictions.


----------



## Maja

Mishe said:


> Almost no dubbing at all in Slovenia, except for some cartoons for really small children. It's the same elsewhere in ex-Yugoslavia as far as I know.


 Yes, in Serbia, only cartoons and documentaries are dubbed,  everything else is subtitled.



Istriano said:


> No dubbing in Croatia, it's excellent since you  can learn many languages (there are even German and Mexican soap  operas).


 Hahaha, exactly! I think that half of Serbian housewives speak a bit of Spanish thanks to Latin soaps!


----------



## Smithy73

A lot of the stuff in Britain comes from the USA and I often have to turn on subtitles. They don't do English dubbed versions.....
Seriously though: most of the French films e.t.c. (the majority of foreign language films in Britain) are subtitles. We don't tend to get many documentaries in other languages.


----------



## 20100

slowik said:


> A few years ago, when my English was not very good but decent enough to try watching English movies without subtitles I tried to watch Stanley Kubrick's "The Clockwork Orange".
> It was completely incomprehensible. Do you by any chance know what accent was used there?


 
Even the french dubbed version is beyong understanding. It is an important part of the movie and it has to stay that way.

I have watched both french and english version and both are hard to understand.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

I'm an ardent advocate of subtitling. It has so many advantages that it's almost impossible to believe dubbing still exists. Dubbing is fifteen times more expensive than subtitling.

I live in Belgium. I believe the situation here has already been explained.


----------



## JGreco

> A lot of the stuff in Britain comes from the USA and I often have to  turn on subtitles. They don't do English dubbed versions.....



I've never had trouble understanding any spoken English from anywhere around the globe (wait a minute....that is not totally true...Indian and Jamaican English can be incomprehensible to my ears) when I watch any television program or movie.


----------



## Madrid829

I lived in Spain for a couple years, and other foreigners, Spaniards, and people from other European countries all attributed a great deal of Spain's lagging in English, compared with so many other European countries, to the fact that they have no regular exposure to the English language —and especially American English— because they dub everything.  For television I can understand, because so many shows are English or American (with some German ones thrown into the mix) and that would be a LOT of subtitles all day long, but for movies it's very frustrating.  When I would travel to other countries, even Portugal right next door, and mention how good their English was compared to my peers in Spain, almost every single one of them would reply, "Well, here we don't dub our movies."

Also, I find Spanish dubbing especially irritating because of the voices and speech that they use.  So many of the voices sound identical — sometimes I swear they have the same five people dubbing all the shows and movies.  They have voices of 20-year-old characters clearly being performed by middle-aged women, sometimes children's voices are clearly adults pretending to be children, and the way that they talk, especially in the television dubbings, is entirely unnatural, a manner of speech I've never heard from any Spaniard in any situation.


----------



## Outsider

Madrid829 said:


> Also, I find Spanish dubbing especially irritating because of the voices and speech that they use.  So many of the voices sound identical — sometimes I swear they have the same five people dubbing all the shows and movies.  They have voices of 20-year-old characters clearly being performed by middle-aged women, sometimes children's voices are clearly adults pretending to be children, and the way that they talk, especially in the television dubbings, is entirely unnatural, a manner of speech I've never heard from any Spaniard in any situation.


That's common when dubbing children's programmes. I used to find it irritating to hear boys speak like women, but now I try to remind myself that the dubbing agencies are probably not allowed to hire minors.


----------



## Grop

On the other hand, some women make convincing children's voices, especially in Japan.


----------



## Einstein

In Italy I can think of three dubbing defects:
1) Foreigners, for example a German in an English-language film, are often dubbed in perfect Italian.
2) Often people such as gangsters, who should be dubbed in colloqual, ungrammatical Italian, are made to speak like school-mistresses.
3) In some comedy programmes the characters are dubbed with silly voices; evidently those who organize the dubbing think we won't understand that we have to laugh if the jokes are made in normal voices.

However, I'm in favour of dubbing rather than subtitling. Films are much easier to follow if we don't have to look at the bottom of the screen all the time to read the subtitles. The award-winning Italian film "Life is beautiful" was not appreciated in America until it was dubbed.


----------



## TriglavNationalPark

Here is a map I made for another forum -- the European countries in red use subtitling on television (except for children's programming, in most cases), while the rest prefer dubbing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/az2si/SubtitlesMap.gif

The map is approximate; there may be errors.


----------



## Outsider

Interesting, thanks!


----------



## Fernando

TriglavNationalPark said:


> Here is a map I made for another forum -- the European countries in red use subtitling on television (except for children's programming, in most cases), while the rest prefer dubbing:/QUOTE]
> 
> Thank you, Triglav.
> 
> I think (said in a previous post) that is almost all about economics. "Big" (number of speakers) cultures (German, Spanish, French, Italian, Russian, Polish) dub. "Small" cultures or with poorer speakers have not the resources to dub.
> 
> It is a surprise to me Hungary.
> 
> It would be interesting to me to know how many not-in-English films are shown in UK or Ireland. For the people who think that dubbing means easiness to speak other languages, UK is not exactly an example.
> 
> Of course, it is not only economics. Catalan and Galician autonomous TVs dub (and pay for the dubbing) sinc ethey feel they need it to maintain their languages. Catalan government wants to make it compulsory for theaters.


----------



## Zsanna

Fernando, I agree that it would not be simply the question of money. GB would be "rich" enough to dub and they still prefer subtitling - as far as I can tell from the BBC, on the fairly rare occasions when I see a non-English speaking film.

In Hungary's case the trouble is that we have fairly long words and when it is a film where there is a lot of dialogue, it would be impossible to do good subtitling. So it is mainly a "technical" question what you can and what you can't subtitle.


----------



## TriglavNationalPark

An interesting case is Slovakia, where apparently TV stations mostly show movies and series dubbed into Czech rather than Slovak. I've heard that Slovak audiences actually prefer Czech-dubbed movies and series because the Prague-based dubbing studios have a long tradition in this area and do a good job -- and the Slovak audiences are used to it.

Here in Slovenia, people are so used to subtitles and so opposed to the concept of dubbing, which they (we) see as unnatural, that there would be riots in the streets if TV stations decided to dub foreign programming, regardless of cost.


----------



## Fernando

Thank you for the information about Hungarian, Zsanna.



Zsanna said:


> GB would be "rich" enough to dub and they still prefer subtitling - as far as I can tell from the BBC, on the fairly rare occasions when I see a non-English speaking film.



My (evil) suggestion was that common English-speaking people simply do not watch foreign films (dubbed or not) because most blockbusters are filmed in English.

People watching foreign films in the isles are film fans that consider that they "must" watch the film on their original version.

Am I evil or true?



> Here in Slovenia, people are so used to subtitles and so opposed to the concept of dubbing, which they (we) see as unnatural, that there would be riots in the streets if TV stations decided to dub foreign programming, regardless of cost.



Are there Slovenian-dubbed films? (You know, I am really evil.)


----------



## TriglavNationalPark

Fernando said:


> Are there Slovenian-dubbed films? (You know, I am really evil.)


 
Most cartoons and some children's films are dubbed. You can do a search for *kung fu panda v slovenščini* (no quotes) on YouTube to watch the trailer of a DreamWorks cartoon dubbed into Slovenian.

All other films (in theaters and on TV) are subtitled.


----------



## vianie

TriglavNationalPark said:


> An interesting case is Slovakia, where apparently TV stations mostly show movies and series dubbed into Czech rather than Slovak. I've heard that Slovak audiences actually prefer Czech-dubbed movies and series because the Prague-based dubbing studios have a long tradition in this area and do a good job -- and the Slovak audiences are used to it.



All up is true, but... Some few years already, the situation is changing on Slovak television stations.
Czech dubbed movies are systematically displacemed and replacemed by movies with Slovak dubbing  .
The punch line is, the Czech dubbing is way more situational than Slovak one.



TriglavNationalPark said:


> Here in Slovenia, people are so used to subtitles and so opposed to the concept of dubbing, which they (we) see as unnatural, that there would be riots in the streets if TV stations decided to dub foreign programming, regardless of cost.



Here in Slovakia the situation is contrary - the subtitles are counteractive resp. counterproductive.
If a man want to have a real movie experience, he choose a dubbing in most cases.


----------



## Hakro

vianie said:


> If a man want to have a real movie experience, he choose a dubbing in most cases.


I'm sorry, Vianie, but I have to disagree. I'm a man, and when I want to have a real movie experience, I want to hear the original voice of the actor. (This doesn't necessarily include the typical American movies where all the nations of the world speak more or less American English. I seldom watch such movies.)


----------



## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> ...In Hungary's case the trouble is that we have fairly long words...



Sorry, Zsanna, but I think that is not a factor. I think it is just *tradition *and people just got used to it. And if something works excellently why to change? And I don't think we have such a long words in general. Now I watch many films on DVDs with Hungarian subtitles and it is no problem.


----------



## vianie

Hakro said:


> when I want to have a real movie experience, I want to hear the original voice of the actor



Yes, also my ordinary logic say so. On the other hand, an inclination towards dubbing instead of subtitles is not as paradoxical as it could seems. As you can see, there are not few countries, where dubbing at least as natural as original voices (ap)perceived is. A man can more and better identify with an actor, when he talks in his native language. Without mention of disturbing interference by subtitles.


----------



## Encolpius

Reading the comment about Slovakia, one very unique thing occurred to me. A couple of years ago it was also common in the Czech republic, but I think it is still quite common on Slovak TV stations and it is called *"dual broadcasting"*. I wonder if other nations has something like this. The thing is if you have a stereo TV set, you get 1st main sound in the original language and the 2nd sound the dubbing. So you can listen to the original or the Czech / Slovak version, too. And of course to both *at the same time*! Now that is common on digital satellite channels, but you cannot listen to more than 1 dubbing at the same time. Now this is not so useful, but 10-15 years ago, when no DVDs, that way to study and listen to the original sound was really something.


----------



## travix

Fernando said:


> It would be interesting to me to know how many not-in-English films are shown in UK or Ireland. For the people who think that dubbing means easiness to speak other languages, UK is not exactly an example.





Fernando said:


> My (evil) suggestion was that common English-speaking people simply do not watch foreign films (dubbed or not) because most blockbusters are filmed in English.
> 
> People watching foreign films in the isles are film fans that consider that they "must" watch the film on their original version.
> 
> Am I evil or true?


Fernando, I don't know if you're evil or not, but what you've said above is definitely true.


----------



## Porteño

Sadly, I see a trend away from subtitling into dubbing here in Argentina. The only logical reason would seem to be that the dubbing company has 'friends' in the government.


----------



## Zsanna

Fernando, I couldn't tell the reason why foreign films are subtitled on the BBC (I watch it from abroad...) but apart from everything else, subtitling is not only cheaper but also faster than dubbing. (Let us be optimistic.)

Encolpius, I understand your feelings about "our long words" (it is such a commonplace!) but unfortunately, in the case of subtitling, it has a very important role. (I have done some so I have seen the problem a bit closer.) 
You have so many characters at a time. Say 32/subtitle. If the film contains a lot of dialogues (which can be up to 3 times more than that), it is impossible to translate everything even if our words were shorter. (I can see it between English and French!) 
It is only possible to do if you don't translate but adapt. This is what happens on DVDs. (Even if they call it "translation".)


----------



## Encolpius

To agree or disagree with Zsanna I wish I knew how it all started in countries. If technology played or plays any role and any changes have been done. But I think German or Finnish words tend to be long, too and they differ in that matter.


----------



## Einstein

Zsanna said:


> Fernando, I couldn't tell the reason why foreign films are subtitled on the BBC (I watch it from abroad...) but apart from everything else, subtitling is not only cheaper but also faster than dubbing. (Let us be optimistic.)


It's all a question of market. There are enough British- or American-made films to satisfy the tastes of the vast majority of film-goers. Of course, it means missing very valid films made in other languages, but that (unfortunately) is of interest to a minority.
In Italy, where I live, a large number of foreign films are shown, so there is a well-developed dubbing industry. In the UK few foreign films are shown, so dubbing is not such an important industry and subtitles are an easier solution.
In Italy I've heard English-speakers complain about the dubbing of films at the cinema; I can't help feeling that this is because they find English easier to understand than Italian! Personally, if a film is in a language that I don't understand (Russian, Chinese, German) or don't understand well (French, Spanish), I prefer hearing a dubbed dialogue to reading the bottom of the screen all the time. Of course the film will "lose" something in the dubbing, but the loss is felt only by those who understand the original language. What's the use in hearing the tone and expression of the original if you understand what's being said only from the subtitle?


----------



## Zsanna

Don't you think that it is a bit like food? (= You prefer the one you are used to.)

We can see from all the comments here how subtitling/dubbing is appreciated and not the other. 
But I think, just like Einstein has just said it, that the reasons behind doing one or the other are mainly practical and they both have their advantages and disadvantages... _And_ you'll like what you got used to.


----------



## Encolpius

And how about the factor of *literacy*? We mustn't forget if subtitles are used people must be able to read them. Well, although literacy is rather OK and was OK in Hungary even 50 years ago, I heard in some other Southern countries it is still a problem. But I cannot imagine how some Hungarian families read subtitles if they haven't finish primary school. On the other hand it would be an excellent pedagogical trick to motivate some people to read more, if they broadcast e.g. Big Brother -like series or shows subtitled.


----------



## Zsanna

I don't think that any connection could be found between illiteracy and dubbing as far as Hungary (or any other European country) is concerned. 
People who don't bother about schools or learning, bother about other things, they'll get on otherwise. And watching films is probably not in the center of their attention... (Especially if they are very poor.) I think, unfortunately, motivation would be more around food and clothes at least to start with...
There is life without cinema.


----------



## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> ...There is life without cinema.



I must disagrre Zsanna. Have you seen shanty towns anywhere in the world with satellites on the roofs? For most people *information *is preferred to food and clothes and that's nice. And I can understand it partly.


----------



## Zsanna

_Information_, even _fun_, yes...


----------



## Porteño

Encolpius said:


> I must disagrre Zsanna. Have you seen shanty towns anywhere in the world with satellites on the roofs? For most people *information *is preferred to food and clothes and that's nice. And I can understand it partly.


 
You'll find plenty of them in Brazil and Argentina.


----------



## Fernando

Information? So in favelas, shanty towns and ranchitos they mostly watch CNN+, Sagan's Cosmos and subtitled Renoir's films?

Sadly, in Spanish chabolas (and palaces) they watch entertainment TVs and culebrones.


----------



## Porteño

Fernando said:


> Information? So in favelas, shanty towns and ranchitos they mostly watch CNN+, Sagan's Cosmos and subtitled Renoir's films?
> 
> Sadly, in Spanish chabolas (and palaces) they watch entertainment TVs and culebrones.


 
Probably most of them watch ESPN.


----------



## Encolpius

Hakro said:


> I'm sorry, Vianie, but I have to disagree. I'm a man, and when I want to have a real movie experience, I want to hear the original voice of the actor...



Hello, I must disagree with Hakro. Have you heard Bruce Willis' original voice?  It's a Real experience.


----------



## MOC

vianie said:


> If a man want to have a real movie experience, he choose a dubbing in most cases.




I really fail to see how this could be remotely true. Would you mind explaining this idea? At present, I'm searching through every creative explanation my mind can come up with, and have yet to find anything that would shed some light on why a man would want a dubbed movie to have a real movie experience.


----------



## Encolpius

MOC said:


> I really fail to see how this could be remotely true. Would you mind explaining this idea? At present, I'm searching through every creative explanation my mind can come up with, and have yet to find anything that would shed some light on why a man would want a dubbed movie to have a real movie experience.



Tell us how you can enjoy the beautiful scenery of a country better if you drive the car or sit at the back of the car?


----------



## MOC

I'm sorry. I still don't get it. Didn't even find the connection.


----------



## Encolpius

MOC said:


> I'm sorry. I still don't get it. Didn't even find the connection.



Well, then it means now, another explanation makes no sense.  Just different way of thinking and considering things.

Edit: By the way, dubbing or subtitles makes no sense any longer (for me). I love films, and there are a couple of movies which I watch in more ways, subtitles, original, dubbing, etc. So if you really love something you could new choose how to watch it . Last night I have seen a film dubbed and I am now planning to watch it in original. Now it is possible. A couple of years ago it was less possible.


----------



## Einstein

The only way to enjoy a film fully is to see it in the original language, *on condition that you understand it well.*
If you don't know the language of the film you have to choose between:
1) hearing a language you don't understand, while you look at the bottom of the screen to read an imperfect translation; hearing the intonation and expression has little value for me in this case.
2) listening to another voice instead of the actor's. Not entirely satisfactory, I agree, but I prefer it to subtitles.

I ask all those who prefer subtitles if they prefer them even when they don't understand a word of the original language. Having watched a film with subtitles, do they really go home remembering the intonation and expression in the original language, even if they didn't understand what was being said?


----------



## MOC

Einstein said:


> The only way to enjoy a film fully is to see it in the original language, *on condition that you understand it well.*
> If you don't know the language of the film you have to choose between:
> 1) hearing a language you don't understand, while you look at the bottom of the screen to read an imperfect translation; hearing the intonation and expression has little value for me in this case.
> 2) listening to another voice instead of the actor's. Not entirely satisfactory, I agree, but I prefer it to subtitles.
> 
> I ask all those who prefer subtitles if they prefer them even when they don't understand a word of the original language. Having watched a film with subtitles, do they really go home remembering the intonation and expression in the original language, even if they didn't understand what was being said?





I think a distinction has to be made. I only watch subtitles movies if the language isn't a romance language nor english, but even when I didn't understand those languages, and so had to read subtitles, I never thought reading subtitles distracted from the movie too much.

It would probably be different for a child who just learned how to read obviously, but otherwise, to fully read a sentence it doesn't take more than a "micro-instant" to just take a peek at it. We aren't exactly reading it letter by letter or even word by word. Those are usually small sentences, or even half-sentences showing on your screen at once whose meaning you obtain at once too.

An example: "I'm going to Spain"

Does anyone really read this word by word? I can be looking at the smiley above, not even take a direct look at the sentence and still read it. 


I really can't watch any dubbed movie more than 5 minutes and although I understand this is personal preference, I honestly have a hard time figuring out, how does one evaluate the performance of an actor if one can't hear such an important thing as the entonation of his voice (well, you can hear the entonation of the dubber's voice).


----------



## Encolpius

MOC said:


> ... how does one evaluate the performance of an actor if one can't hear such an important thing as the entonation of his voice (well, you can hear the entonation of the dubber's voice).



That is the task of the dubbing companies, and believe me they sometimes work wonders. At least in Hungary. It is not a good idea to read subtitles if e.g. the actor is speaking a dialect (grandpa in Amarcord), speaking a crazy slang, using 13th century language, word games (they are often put into quotes in subtitles) - easier that than try to find an equivalent.


----------



## Fernando

MOC said:


> how does one evaluate the performance of an actor if one can't hear such an important thing as the entonation of his voice (well, you can hear the entonation of the dubber's voice).



No way, it is impossible to evaluate the performance without hearing his voice.

But, why would I want to evaluate the actor performance? I am not a jury in Cannes. I only want to enjoy the film. Spanish dubbers makes possible to me to watch a film which I could not fully enjoy other way.


----------



## Encolpius

Fernando said:


> ...Spanish dubbers makes possible to me to watch a film which I could not fully enjoy other way.



Now it is evident, Hungarian and Spanish dubbers are the best.


----------



## JGreco

I think they use very goods dubs in Spanish. But sometimes, those peoples voices that they use to dub are really annoying. Especially when they're used really badly to reflect a situation. Sometimes it just makes my ears cringe. The only pet peeve I have is when HBO Latino completely dub all the Brazilian shows that they air. None of the dubs ever reflect the rhythm or passion in any of the characters voices, especially in the shows _Mandrake _and _Alice. _I get so frustrated when I hear the dubs. I ended up downloading the original versions of both shows.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Einstein said:


> The only way to enjoy a film fully is to see it in the original language, *on condition that you understand it well.*
> If you don't know the language of the film you have to choose between:
> 1) hearing a language you don't understand, while you look at the bottom of the screen to read an imperfect translation; hearing the intonation and expression has little value for me in this case.
> 2) listening to another voice instead of the actor's. Not entirely satisfactory, I agree, but I prefer it to subtitles.
> 
> I ask all those who prefer subtitles if they prefer them even when they don't understand a word of the original language. Having watched a film with subtitles, do they really go home remembering the intonation and expression in the original language, even if they didn't understand what was being said?



Yes, I prefer to hear the original language and I actually pay a lot of attention to how that language sounds, the intonation etc. 
It would bother me a whole lot more to see a foreign film dubbed. Language is, in my opinion, a very important aspect of film. I'd hate to see a Chinese film dubbed, it would lose all its credibility if the actors "spoke" Dutch, for example. 

And I agree with MOC, reading subtitles doesn't really distract me from the film.


----------



## hollabooiers

Einstein said:


> I ask all those who prefer subtitles if they prefer them even when they don't understand a word of the original language. Having watched a film with subtitles, do they really go home remembering the intonation and expression in the original language, even if they didn't understand what was being said?



I actually do, yes. Of course that's mostly just because I take an interest in languages in general, but still. Even if I don't know anything about the language, it's -always- interesting to listen to the sound of it and pick up a few words here and there.

As for the original question, the only things that get dubbed in Estonia are soaps (and I really mean your classical Latin American soaps, not just any TV series) and movies/cartoons aimed at children. Everything else is subbed and I wouldn't have it any other way - it's more or less the reason why I can speak proper(-ish >>) English and understand some German even though I've never studied it in any context. It's obviously up to personal preferences and what one's used to, but I personally avoid dubbed stuff in fear of traumatic experiences.


----------



## Juan Nadie

I guess that if when it is dubbed you lose part of the acting then when it is subbed you lose part of the image/picture (and let me remember you that a film is an audiovisual thing). Actually, if there is a lot of dialoge the subbed can't possible have all what they are saying, so the fact is that you lose a part of the dialoge (even if you get the more important) and that means that you lose part of the film. Another not-so-possitive aspect in the subbed is that you can't take off your eyes from the screen while they are talking.

I find that some films/series are fine in their original version, others subbed, other dubbed and other dubbed in another language. Surprisingly I have found that some series I couldn't stand nor in original neither dubbed in my main language are much more suited for me when dubbed in other than my main language.

If I were to learn ZZZish, as I am more interested in the spoken part of the languages, and it is way easier to understand dubbed spoken films than it is original films (or original ZZZish radio) that would be one of my starting points (but not the first), and once I were more confident, maybe I would watch an original ZZZish film (or radio, or whatever). And I am sure that it is very much possible to find subtitles in ZZZish for almost every dubbed ZZZish film, but maybe not otherwise, which makes just a little more difficult for me to learn ZZZish...



In ZZZish every word is writtend with z or Z, so: ZzzzZz z zz Zzz zZ means that someone is sleeping, and so on...


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> I guess that if when it is dubbed you lose part of the acting then when it is subbed you lose part of the image/picture (and let me remember you that a film is an audiovisual thing). Actually, if there is a lot of dialoge the subbed can't possible have all what they are saying, so the fact is that you lose a part of the dialoge (even if you get the more important) and that means that you lose part of the film. Another not-so-possitive aspect in the subbed is that you can't take off your eyes from the screen while they are talking.



When a film is subtitled the emphasis goes from the 'verbal sound channel' (words spoken by actors) to the 'verbal visual channel' (subtitles). This is, of course, not the case with dubbing. 

I agree that with subtitles you lose a part of the film, but I'd say the same is true for dubbing. The original needs to be translated either way and if any attention is paid to lip synchronisation it's not uncommon that dialogues are shortened, for example. Jokes, wordplay, etc. will be lost whether the film is subtitled or  dubbed. A sentence in language A can be very short, while this might not be the case in language B. In Spain (during the regime of Franco) the dialogues were adjusted to suit Franco's socio-political ideals. 

A film can be a window into another culture. By superimposing your own language, I think you lose not only parts of the dialogue but also a chance to get a glimpse of another culture. Futhermore, the illusion, which is the beauty of film, is destroyed.


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> I agree that with subtitles you lose a part of the film, but I'd say the same is true for dubbing. The original needs to be translated either way and if any attention is paid to lip synchronisation it's not uncommon that dialogues are shortened, for example. Jokes, wordplay, etc. will be lost whether the film is subtitled or  dubbed. A sentence in language A can be very short, while this might not be the case in language B.



Of course, I was not in favor nor against the methods, just pointing out that all that negativity is the same for subbed or dubbed. I am afraid I failed at doing so.




The Machine of Zhu said:


> In Spain (during the regime of Franco) the dialogues were adjusted to suit Franco's socio-political ideals.
> 
> A film can be a window into another culture. By superimposing your own language, I think you lose not only parts of the dialogue but also a chance to get a glimpse of another culture. Futhermore, the illusion, which is the beauty of film, is destroyed.


For the first point, I think that if the films were subbed, that wouldn't have changed a thing, because the subtitles would have been adjusted too. And if the general public were proficient enough to understand the foreing language, the film would just have never been released in theaters.

For the second point, I think I don't really understand what you mean.
By subbing you are also superimposing you own language and I don't think the illusion gets lost by dubbing more than it does by subbing. Otherwise nobody would be willing to watch films dubbed which is obviously not true.
And I am sure that the glimpse to the other culture is exactly the same, after all, stereotypes (that is the cultural glimpse) are very similar amongst countries, subbing or dubbing.


----------



## Fernando

The Machine of Zhu said:


> A film can be a window into another culture. By superimposing your own language, I think you lose not only parts of the dialogue but also a chance to get a glimpse of another culture. Futhermore, the illusion, which is the beauty of film, is destroyed.



About the illusion: My (very personal) opinion is that you like some "exotic" film just because they are exotic. If you would have heard them in your own language (deprived of exotism) you would realize they aren't worth, or you would notice the similarities with your own culture. .


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> Of course, I was not in favor nor against the methods, just pointing out that all that negativity is the same for subbed or dubbed. I am afraid I failed at doing so.



I personally believe subtitling has a lot more advantages than dubbing. You did get your point across, I simply wanted to add my own view. 




> For the first point, I think that if the films were subbed, that wouldn't have changed a thing, because the subtitles would have been adjusted too. And if the general public were proficient enough to understand the foreing language, the film would just have never been released in theaters.



Fair enough. 



> For the second point, I think I don't really understand what you mean.
> By subbing you are also superimposing you own language and I don't think the illusion gets lost by dubbing more than it does by subbing. Otherwise nobody would be willing to watch films dubbed which is obviously not true.
> And I am sure that the glimpse to the other culture is exactly the same, after all, stereotypes (that is the cultural glimpse) are very similar amongst countries, subbing or dubbing.



I disagree. Subtitles are added to the film so you'd be able to understand what the actors are saying. The intonation, stress, speed, sounds etc. of the foreign language remain perfectly intact. With dubbing the emphasis is on the target culture, with subtitling it's on the source culture. 

I think people watch dubbed films mostly because that's what they are used to. I do think the illusion gets lost. If you disagree tell me what sounds more authentic to you, a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Mandarin Chinese (or other Chinese languages) or a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Spanish or French? Which of the two would make the illusion work best? 

Stereotypes are indeed similar. If I go to Italy and I see a group of Italians talking loudly, moving their hands and arms frantically around to add emphasis to their speech etc. I'd say I saw a glimpse of Italy. If, however, they were all speaking Dutch (yet still talking loudly and simultaneously, gesturing around etc. ) I'd feel like I didn't see the real Italy at all because in the 'real Italy' people speak Italian, not Dutch.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Fernando said:


> About the illusion: My (very personal) opinion is that you like some "exotic" film just because they are exotic. If you would have heard them in your own language (deprived of exotism) you would realize they aren't worth, or you would notice the similarities with your own culture. .



Well, personally I'm not really a film buff and I don't watch a lot of films. I certainly don't watch films because they are "exotic."

If they aired a Chinese film dubbed in Dutch I wouldn't bother watching. Not because it's stripped of its exotic flavour (the storytelling, the faces, the customs... in the film are still very much exotic) but rather because it's been deprived of its authenticity.


----------



## Einstein

Has anyone considered that _The Merchant of Venice_, _Romeo and Juliet_ and plenty of other Shakespeare plays are Italian stories dubbed into English?

I'm joking, of course, but it does raise the point that films can be made in English about a non-English-speaking country. _Smilla's sense of snow_ (1997) was made in English, but the original story was in Danish. Should it have been made in Danish with subtitles? There are plenty of other examples where the "original" language of the film is not the original language of the setting. I think this should give us a sense of proportion about dubbing depriving the film of its "authenticity".


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> I disagree. Subtitles are added to the film so you'd be able to understand what the actors are saying. The intonation, stress, speed, sounds etc. of the foreign language remain perfectly intact. With dubbing the emphasis is on the target culture, with subtitling it's on the source culture.


With subtitles you will not understand what they say more than you would do with dubbing. And while you listen to the intonation... you read the subtitles at your own pace, intonation, stress... while with dubbing the empahasis is on the story, as it is in subbing.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> I do think the illusion gets lost. If you disagree tell me what sounds more authentic to you, a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Mandarin Chinese (or other Chinese languages) or a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Spanish or French? Which of the two would make the illusion work best?


I disagree. I do because the comparasion is not honest. The question should have been "What sounds more authentic to you, a buch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Mandarin while someone writes down in a big piece of paper what they are saying in Dutch or a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Spanish?" To me... well both are unlikely, but probably the second one has a slightly higher probability.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> Stereotypes are indeed similar. If I go to Italy and I see a group of Italians talking loudly, moving their hands and arms frantically around to add emphasis to their speech etc. I'd say I saw a glimpse of Italy. If, however, they were all speaking Dutch (yet still talking loudly and simultaneously, gesturing around etc. ) I'd feel like I didn't see the real Italy at all because in the 'real Italy' people speak Italian, not Dutch.


Poor Italians...
So, if I were on holidays to the Flemish region and they were to talk to me in English for hotel registration, restaurants and guided tours just because I can't speak the local language, I just would feel cheated and I should have chosen any English speaking country for holidays.
Or see the previous point.


----------



## Juan Nadie

Einstein said:


> Has anyone considered that _The Merchant of Venice_, _Romeo and Juliet_ and plenty of other Shakespeare plays are Italian stories dubbed into English?
> 
> I'm joking, of course, but it does raise the point that films can be made in English about a non-English-speaking country. _Smilla's sense of snow_ (1997) was made in English, but the original story was in Danish. Should it have been made in Danish with subtitles? There are plenty of other examples where the "original" language of the film is not the original language of the setting. I think this should give us a sense of proportion about dubbing depriving the film of its "authenticity".



Oh man... you made me think about remakes...


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Einstein said:


> Has anyone considered that _The Merchant of Venice_, _Romeo and Juliet_ and plenty of other Shakespeare plays are Italian stories dubbed into English?
> 
> I'm joking, of course, but it does raise the point that films can be made in English about a non-English-speaking country. _Smilla's sense of snow_ (1997) was made in English, but the original story was in Danish. Should it have been made in Danish with subtitles? There are plenty of other examples where the "original" language of the film is not the original language of the setting. I think this should give us a sense of proportion about dubbing depriving the film of its "authenticity".



I think this is a different discussion. But I am a little disappointed whenever I see a film about Russia, for example, and not a word in Russian is uttered.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> With subtitles you will not understand what they say more than you would do with dubbing. And while you listen to the intonation... you read the subtitles at your own pace, intonation, stress... while with dubbing the empahasis is on the story, as it is in subbing.



I disagree. I'm not saying, by the way, that you'd understand the film better with subtitles. I never read subtitles out loud, and I don't read them with intonation or stress. I simply read them to know what has been said. 

With dubbing the focus is on the target culture, with subtitling it's on the source culture. 



> I disagree. I do because the comparasion is not honest. The question should have been "What sounds more authentic to you, a buch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Mandarin while someone writes down in a big piece of paper what they are saying in Dutch or a bunch of Chinese people in a Chinese town who all speak Spanish?" To me... well both are unlikely, but probably the second one has a slightly higher probability.


Obviously, I disagree. When you watch a subtitled film, you hear the original language, which usually - but certainly not always - corresponds to the setting of the film. Subtitles are merely there so you'd understand what is being said. Dubbing eliminates the original language completely and replaces it with the target language. Perhaps this is a little bit simplistic but subtitling adds a component to the film so you'd understand, dubbing replaces a component of the film. 




> So, if I were on holidays to the Flemish region and they were to talk to me in English for hotel registration, restaurants and guided tours just because I can't speak the local language, I just would feel cheated and I should have chosen any English speaking country for holidays.
> Or see the previous point.


I don't know how you'd feel. But I do know that dubbing isn't selective, so in order to make your comparison fair, people wouldn't just speak English to you in your hotel, restaurant or on a guided tour... Everyone everywhere would speak English and you wouldn't hear a word of Dutch at all. 

Like I said, I don't know about you, but at the very least I'd find that a bit odd.

Anyway, I think we'd better agree to disagree.


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> I never read subtitles out loud, and I don't read them with intonation or stress. I simply read them to know what has been said.


People in the theater would be a little bothered if everyone there were reading them out loud  but I am not so sure about intonation, stress... We have our own language deep rooted...
Imagine the actor saying (I am using ZZZish): Zzzz zzzzzZZzzz, Zzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz // To be or not to be, that is the question (I am sure that the stress in English is not were it is in ZZZish, but when I read that, I put the stress, intonation, pace... in (what I think it is) English, and not in ZZZish.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> Obviously, I disagree. When you watch a subtitled film, you hear the original language, which usually - but certainly not always - corresponds to the setting of the film. Subtitles are merely there so you'd understand what is being said. Dubbing eliminates the original language completely and replaces it with the target language. Perhaps this is a little bit simplistic but subtitling adds a component to the film so you'd understand, dubbing replaces a component of the film. Yes, maybe it is, because dubbing is also there so you can understand the film too, and subtitles are over the image, replacing part of it with text... again, audio+visual is the whole.
> 
> I don't know how you'd feel. But I do know that dubbing isn't selective, so in order to make your comparison fair, people wouldn't just speak English to you in your hotel, restaurant or on a guided tour... Everyone everywhere would speak English and you wouldn't hear a word of Dutch at all.
> 
> Like I said, I don't know about you, but at the very least I'd find that a bit odd.


What do you disagree with?
To make my comparison fair, I should have everyone with little pieces of paper in English or Spanish where I could read the translation of what they are saying (before or at the same time they say it, to make it even fairer). Which is, certainly, a bit odd too.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> With dubbing the focus is on the target culture, with subtitling it's on the source culture.


I would need you to explain this a little further, because I could say: With subtitling the focus is on the target culture, with dubbing it's on the source culture. And you would think this is a personal opinion with no fundamentals (which by the way it is not even my opinion). So, if you don't mind...


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> I would need you to explain this a little further, because I could say: With subtitling the focus is on the target culture, with dubbing it's on the source culture. And you would think this is a personal opinion with no fundamentals (which by the way it is not even my opinion). So, if you don't mind...



OK, I'll try to explain my point very briefly. If a film is dubbed, the source language is replaced by the target language, for example Spanish. If a film is subtitled, the audience of the film can still hear the the foreign language or the source language. In other words, dubbing prevents any contact with foreign languages. Subtitling does not, although it does add a translation/adaptation so that the audience can understand. Here's an example: a Spanish person and a Dutch person go to see a Chinese film. Both have never heard any Chinese languages. Both have never seen Chinese people and both have never seen Chinese landscapes. The Spanish person, who saw the dubbed version, will know what Chinese people look like, what the landscapes look like but he won't have the slightest idea what Chinese sounds like. The Dutch person, who saw the subtitled film, however, _will _know what Chinese sounds like and, just like the Spaniard, he will have seen the landscapes and the people. The subtitled version, in my humble opinion, gives more of the source culture than the dubbed version.


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> OK, I'll try to explain my point very briefly. If a film is dubbed, the source language is replaced by the target language, for example Spanish. If a film is subtitled, the audience of the film can still hear the the foreign language or the source language. In other words, dubbing prevents any contact with foreign languages. Subtitling does not, although it does add a translation/adaptation so that the audience can understand. Here's an example: a Spanish person and a Dutch person go to see a Chinese film. Both have never heard any Chinese languages. Both have never seen Chinese people and both have never seen Chinese landscapes. The Spanish person, who saw the dubbed version, will know what Chinese people look like, what the landscapes look like but he won't have the slightest idea what Chinese sounds like. The Dutch person, who saw the subtitled film, however, _will _know what Chinese sounds like and, just like the Spaniard, he will have seen the landscapes and the people. The subtitled version, in my humble opinion, gives more of the source culture than the dubbed version.



But this is really different to that "focus is on the target/source culture"!


That is a good point! But even that is not 100% true. Dubbing country citizens also know how other languages sound like, so how is this possible?
Films use to have something else on them, crowds and a soundtrack which are not generally dubbed neither subtitled, and there your dubbed-citizen has contact with that part of the culture that you miss. (Sometimes in a non-Chinese film a part is taking place in Chinatown, where Chinese people are speaking in their language and it is not understood by the film star, and that part remains original in the dubbed version).

I could watch any film dubbed in Chinese and that would do the trick too, and I could chose which film I want to watch, so I can know how some silly joke I listened previously in a film sounds in dubbed Chinese, and that way I could improve my silly Chinese jokes skills. I should apologize for this.



I would appreciate an answer to my (previous post) question: Why do you disagree? It is not so obvious to me yet...


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> But this is really different to that "focus is on the target/source culture"!



I have to disagree again. One is more open to the foreign culture than the other. The audience is exposed to more of the foreign culture with subtitling i.e. the audience is exposed to the language, which is not the case with dubbing. 




> That is a good point! But even that is not 100% true. Dubbing country citizens also know how other languages sound like, so how is this possible?



You missed my point, I'm afraid. I'm not saying Spanish people, for example, don't know what Chinese sounds like. 



> Films use to have something else on them, crowds and a soundtrack which are not generally dubbed neither subtitled, and there your dubbed-citizen has contact with that part of the culture that you miss.



I'm sorry I don't really understand your point. Can you rephrase that please?



> (Sometimes in a non-Chinese film a part is taking place in Chinatown, where Chinese people are speaking in their language and it is not understood by the film star, and that part remains original in the dubbed version).



True, yet my point remains valid. Subtitling exposes viewer to more of the 'original' culture than dubbing. 




> I could watch any film dubbed in Chinese and that would do the trick too, and I could chose which film I want to watch, so I can know how some silly joke I listened previously in a film sounds in dubbed Chinese, and that way I could improve my silly Chinese jokes skills. I should apologize for this.



You lost me here. 



> I would appreciate an answer to my (previous post) question: Why do you disagree? It is not so obvious to me yet...



Let's go back to the Chinese village. You say my example would only work if people were holding cards or signs with a translation of what is being said. OK, so I'm in this Chinese town and the people are speaking Chinese, next to me is an interpreter, who lost his voice, and he writes down the translation. 

In 'your' Chinese town everyone just speaks your native language.

My point here was about the illusion of film. I think dubbing shatters that illusion. I appreciate your disagreement. You are (and please do correct me if I'm mistaken) used to dubbed television. But I think if you grew up with subtitles, it's very hard to accept dubbed films. It sound extremely unnatural and at least for me, it destroys the illusion. 

Besides, subtitles have proven economical and educational benefits.


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> I have to disagree again. One is more open to the foreign culture than the other. The audience is exposed to more of the foreign culture with subtitling i.e. the audience is exposed to the language, which is not the case with dubbing.
> 
> You missed my point, I'm afraid. I'm not saying Spanish people, for example, don't know what Chinese sounds like. No, I didn't, but nevermind.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't really understand your point. Can you rephrase that please?
> 
> True, yet my point remains valid. Subtitling exposes viewer to more of the 'original' culture than dubbing. Actually, that is original version, but once again, nevermind.


Yes, sure. Sorry for the trouble.
I mean that  films have a soundtrack (songs, music: usually from the culture/country where they set the film) which remains in the dubbed film without dubbing and in the subtitled version without subtitles. There is also ambience, crowds that remains unsubtilted/undubbed. The final result is exposure to the original language (little, yes, but that is relative).

This lead to the second part, I agree there is more contact, but that is quantity, not quality. A citizen from a dubbed country could have more quantity just by watching more films than a citizen from a subtitling country.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> You lost me here.


 Sorry again... not my day.
I don't know if Chinese sub or dub (allow me to put them as dubbers this time). I wanted to say that if I were really interested in how Chinese sound, I could enjoy the latest superb not-Chinese dubbed-in-my-language film  in Chinese dubbed version, so I could even understand (if I learnt by heart ot similar) what they are saying without subtitles and without knowing a word in Chinese.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> Let's go back to the Chinese village. You say my example would only work if people were holding cards or signs with a translation of what is being said. OK, so I'm in this Chinese town and the people are speaking Chinese, next to me is an interpreter, who lost his voice, and he writes down the translation. Yes, that is. But take into consideration that he translates (by writting) everyone in that town.
> 
> In 'your' Chinese town everyone just speaks your native language. Yes. It is not mine, that is a pity, but yes.
> 
> My point here was about the illusion of film. I think dubbing shatters that illusion.


I can't break that tie, that would be for others members of the forum. To me, the same that it is unlikely everyone speaking my language, it is unlikely this aphonic interpreter that writes so fast. I see both at the same level.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> I appreciate your disagreement. I appreciate you opposition in this discusion too. You are (and please do correct me if I'm mistaken) used to dubbed television. But I think if you grew up with subtitles, it's very hard to accept dubbed films. It sound extremely unnatural and at least for me, it destroys the illusion.


I am used to dubbing, other-language-dubbing, subtitling and original version films/series/tv. I like all of them, just not at the same time. One thing may work better than the others for one particular program.
I think that growing up with subtitles, if you accept dubbing, you open a whole new world of enjoyment. Of course the dubbing should be properly done, but the same is of application to subtitling.



The Machine of Zhu said:


> Besides, subtitles have proven economical and educational benefits.


Hmmm... not so sure about that. It depends on how you look at it, I guess. It may accept lots of interpretations. If you have any source or want to give an example on this, it will be kindly accepted.




If something remain unclear... it was on purpose . But do not hesitate to point it out.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Juan Nadie said:


> Hmmm... not so sure about that. It depends on how you look at it, I guess. It may accept lots of interpretations. If you have any source or want to give an example on this, it will be kindly accepted.



I read a study on the pros and cons of subtitling and dubbing. I'll try to find it. Actually, to be honest it was an article that cited the study, but I'm sure I can find the original research somewhere. 

Basically, it said that dubbing was fifteen times more expensive than subtitling. Subtitling is relatively cheap. One person can subtitle a film rather quickly, and that's all there is to it. Dubbing a film is more expensive because a translator must be paid (translating for dubbing is more difficult than translating/adapting for subtitling, especially if the translator has to pay attention to lip synchronisation, which is, I think, a crucial factor if you want high standard dubbing). Then the voice actor or actors need to be paid, this drives up the cost substantially. 

It is my personal experience (and belief) that the command of the English language is generally better in countries that opt for subtitles (for a possible explanation see Chomsky's Universal Grammar or Principles and Parameters) 

I'll comment on the rest of your post later. 

Cheers.


----------



## Anatoli

I have experience living in *Russia* where all or most movies we dubbed, rarely a voice-over was used and in *Australia* where you never see a dubbed movie - all movies are subtitled.

I like foreign movies and I watch them in Australia as well but I see most Australians don't watch foreign movies, simply because they hate reading subtitles.

Neither approach is perfect. To my regret, although I prefer to watch movies with the original soundtrack, the majority is not like that. In English speaking countries English make up 99% of what people watch, if they watch a foreign movie with subtitles, it's an exception, not a rule. 

The situation is different with English language movies in other countries - they are still very popular, even if they are subtitled because the knowledge of English is becoming increasingly good and yes, the countries where English/American movies are dubbed speak a better English.


----------



## MOC

Anatoli said:


> and yes, the countries where English/American movies are dubbed speak a better English.



Come again? What are you basing that opinion on? Traveling through all of Europe, what I've experienced is precisely the opposite. People from countries where movies are dubbed, *in general*, have a lot of trouble speaking proper English, whereas in those where movies are subtitled (again, in general), the majority of people won't have any troubles with it.


----------



## itreius

MOC said:


> what I've experienced is precisely the opposite


Add me to that list.

It doesn't make sense for a _decreased_ availability of English content to make a positive effect on the populace's proficiency in said language.


----------



## Juan Nadie

The Machine of Zhu said:


> Basically, it said that dubbing was fifteen times more expensive than subtitling. Subtitling is relatively cheap. One person can subtitle a film rather quickly, and that's all there is to it. Dubbing a film is more expensive because a translator must be paid (translating for dubbing is more difficult than translating/adapting for subtitling, especially if the translator has to pay attention to lip synchronisation, which is, I think, a crucial factor if you want high standard dubbing). Then the voice actor or actors need to be paid, this drives up the cost substantially.
> 
> It is my personal experience (and belief) that the command of the English language is generally better in countries that opt for subtitles (for a possible explanation see Chomsky's Universal Grammar or Principles and Parameters)


That is what I was afraid of.

I can accept that it is x15, so it means what? That there is more people and money moving in the market. Isn't that the essence of our economy? It requieres also a higher level of technology. Isn't that good for society? This should be reflected in the price you pay for a ticket, don't you think so? FACUA has done that for me (if you don't like that source, I will accept almost whichever you want) and the results doesn't reflect it.

The educational part is different, because among the countries that don't dub, you have UK and USA, where the command of English couldn't be better, but what about others languages? (I don't know) There are socioeconomic factors which have a great effect on this subject.
There is no doubt that if you are learning English and keep a constant contact with that language, it will help, but if there is a good educational system that boost/promote language learning, that will help too.
It is no so easy as to blame dubbing or subtitling in this situation.

Regards.


----------



## Fernando

As I said in a previous posts, smaller languages do not dub, because they do not have the resources to do it. 

No surprise these are also the same countries where the proficiency in other languages (namely English) is bigger. But the reason is not they do not dub (even when I admit that it helps). The reason is that, since they are smaller, they are exposed to other languages. Dubbing / subtitling is just other example.

A Spaniard (or German or Franch or Italian) can live all their lifetimes without speaking a word in other languages. Our democratic presidents, as an example, have been illiterate in languages. 

Meanwhile, a Flemish speaker (no offense intended. I have deliberately chosen a comparatively big language), even assuming Dutch is the same laguage, can not drive for more than 100 km in almost any direction without switching to other language. Foreign books can not be translated at the needed speed.

As a summary, people who can choose (because their economies/population size allow them to dub), use dubbing, even when it is much more expensive than subtitling.


----------



## Ayazid

Fernando said:


> As I said in a previous posts, smaller languages do not dub, because they do not have the resources to do it.
> 
> No surprise these are also the same countries where the proficiency in other languages (namely English) is bigger. But the reason is not they do not dub (even when I admit that it helps). The reason is that, since they are smaller, they are exposed to other languages. Dubbing / subtitling is just other example.



Not quite true. In the Czech republic and Slovakia, in spite of being relatively small countries, most foreign movies and TV series are dubbed, both in public and commercial channels. The only exception to this rule (at least to my knowledge) is the second channel of our public TV, where some films deemed to be "artistic" are subtitled. An interesting exception is the Monty Python's Flying Circus, since this show was broadcast subtitled (unlike in Spain or Italy), although their humor is not excessively intellectual, so sometimes the criteria for what show/movie will be dubbed or not seem to be rather random, but as I said, almost everything is dubbed ...

... which I find really annoying since I simply hate when the original voices (in any language, no matter if I understand it or not) are substituted by some studio Czech ones. To me it feels completely unnatural and horrible and I don't find reading of subtitles to be exceptionally distracting or exhausting, it's just a matter of practice. Thanks to God, in multiplex movie theaters the offer is more diverse and usually it's possible to choose between a subtitled and dubbed version of the same movie.

A good example how dubbing can deprive a movie of its authenticity is the case of the French flick _L'auberge espagnole_ which was dubbed here. Basically, it's a story of a French guy who goes to Barcelona to spend there his Erasmus. Since most of his roommates were Americans, Brits, Germans, Italians and Spanish, their _lingua franca _was English. But guess what, in the Czech version both French and English were substituted by Czech ... Go figure! But of course, most of the viewers probably didn't notice this little "linguistic mystery", after all how could they? The dubbing gave them no choice, just to suppose that the guy was speaking with his companions in French all the time (not in Spanish, since lines in español were just subtitled, probably to leave "mercifully" some linguistic authenticity in the movie).

But ... a cada uno lo suyo chicos


----------



## Juan Nadie

@Ayazid: First paragraph is informative (thanks for it), but as you have stated, the second is personal opinion. You could turn terms and it would be the same.

The third one is just an example of a bad dubbing... I am sure you have never found a bad subtitling, haven't you? Wouldn't that be an example of how subtitling can deprive a movie of its authenticity?

It is a matter of not being so extremist.


----------



## Zsanna

I think it is misleading to draw a parallel between subtitling/dubbing practises and knowledge of foreign languages in a country. 
The first may depend on _economic reasonings_ firstly, meanwhile the second on something that could be summed up as _social, linguistic factors_. (Difficult to define but a bit like "big nations are not eager to learn foreign languages and small nations have a tendency to be".) 
But one may be stronger than the other in spite of it all... 
In Hungary _dubbing_ is usual meanwhile we _are_ eager to learn foreign languages... 
If there are even more people now who can speak foreign languages quite well it is mainly because they can travel and study abroad more easily - as well as because of new laws about validity of university diplomas provided you have a language exam of fairly good level. (I think one is enough.) 
Nothing to do with the practice of dubbing.
Of course, everyone who learns a language would make an effort to watch subtitled films. I remember I did. (And _could_ even in the 80s!) 
Of course, we also complained about not having more films with subtitles but now even that is different with the film renting possibilities and that you have the choice of the language on DVDs...


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Zsanna said:


> I think it is misleading to draw a parallel between subtitling/dubbing practises and knowledge of foreign languages in a country.



Of course other factors are involved as well, but anyone who wants to study a language properly should be confronted with, or even better, immersed in that language. 

I've been exposed to the English language ever since I was a kid. When you hear English on a daily basis you pick up quite a bit of vocabulary and grammar even if you're not really interested in learning the language. 

You can't underestimate the impact direct contact with a language has on the acquisition of a language. I think every language learner knows this.


----------



## Cpt.Eureka

The Machine of Zhu said:


> You can't underestimate the impact direct contact with a language has on the acquisition of a language. I think every language learner knows this.



Yes, but what kind of language.
"Frak" or "shoot" as surrogates for swear words or phrases like "I don't know nothing." are very common. These are real traps for people without proper knowlegde of the language. And when I watch German movies or - help god - daily soaps, I'm thinking "Who the hell talks like that?" very often.


----------



## Ayazid

Juan Nadie said:


> @Ayazid: First paragraph is informative (thanks for it), but as you have stated, the second is personal opinion. You could turn terms and it would be the same.
> 
> The third one is just an example of a bad dubbing... I am sure you have never found a bad subtitling, haven't you? Wouldn't that be an example of how subtitling can deprive a movie of its authenticity?
> 
> It is a matter of not being so extremist.


 
Juan, I think that all of us are basically discussing our personal opinions about the alleged dis/advantages of dubbing/subtitles in this phase, since how the things work in Netherlands, Spain, Italy, UK, Czech Republic etc. has been already stated 

Of course, I have already found a bad subtitling, but it can't deprive a movie of its authenticity, just to create some misunderstandings when it is bad. Ditto for a bad dubbing. In the case of the mentioned movie, bad subtitles would obscure some things, but all the people would still talk in the original language, be it French, English or Spanish with various types of accents. With the dubbing almost all of that linguistic "flavour" was gone and who know how good the translation was, so where are the advantages?

I still fail to see any "objective" advantages of dubbing beyond the fact that it's easier to watch a movie when you are not used to read subtitles and feel disturbed by them, but judging by the posts I read here and in other sites, it doesn't to be a huge problem for many people in Portugal, Sweden, Netherlands, Estonia, Croatia etc. (I don't count in the English speaking countries as UK and USA, since thanks to the exceptional fecundity of Hollywood most people there probably never watch any "foreign" movies).

And whenever it is possible I try to avoid watching dubbed movies, since I profoundly dislike this way of "enhancing" or "making accessible" foreign movies. If I am extremist because of this, ok, no problem. Lo admito y con orgullo  Now let's talk objectively


----------



## Juan Nadie

Ayazid, I am not against personal opinions, I just found naked opinions to be of little help. But you are entitled to write your naked opinion, of course.

I fail to see "objective" advantages of subtitling beyond the fact that it's easier to watch a film when you are not used to dubbing and feel disturbed by it. (As you can see, your naked opinion turned over. Not my own opinion, btw).

You are not an extremist because of disliking something, but because of " I find really annoying since I simply hate [dubbing]". Anyhow, extremists use to have a good reasoning, I just wanted to enjoy yours 

You may notice that "I profoundly dislike this way of [...] 'making accesible' foreing moveis" could be used against subtitling in a convincing demagogy extremist way...


----------



## MOC

Juan Nadie said:


> I fail to see "objective" advantages of subtitling beyond the fact that it's easier to watch a film when you are not used to dubbing and feel disturbed by it. (As you can see, your naked opinion turned over. Not my own opinion, btw).



Some big advantages for many people (obviously as this thread shows, not for everyone) are the fact that you really are able to admire the actors performance; and the possibility of enjoying the movie as it is originally without "cuts to its integrity".
The one negative aspect I could think about in what concernes subtitling is the space subtitles take in the screen, which obviously makes me prefer the original version without the subtitles (except for languages I don't understand), but subtitles are in the bottom of the screen, not in the middle of it. The way I look at it, when you're used to them, they go barely unnoticed.

You may consider those irrelevant (like someone replied before), and still prefer dubbed movies. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but just because you (plural) feel it's not relevant, it doesn't mean it isn't for others. The "objective" advantages have been presented before.


----------



## Juan Nadie

MOC, the thing is that the argument can be easily reversed, and works, which shows how feeble are the arguments in favor or against any of them:


MOC said:


> Some big advantages for many people (obviously as this thread shows, not for everyone) are the fact that you really are able to admire the actors performance (or tho admire the physical performance and not only voice, or to pay attention to your coke/popcorn and not to lose anything just because you are not looking at the screen, or just to enjoy without thinking too much); and the possibility of enjoying the movie as it is originally without "cuts to its integrity". I don't even need to change a thing, it works for both.
> The one negative aspect I could think about in what concernes dubbing is when there is a famous non-actor voice, which obviously makes me prefer the original version without dubbing (except for languages I don't understand), but dubbing is not distracting. The way I look at it, when you're used to it, it go barely unnoticed.
> 
> You may consider those irrelevant (like someone replied before), and still prefer subtitled movies. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but just because you (plural) feel it's not relevant, it doesn't mean it isn't for others. The "objective" advantages have been presented before.


The conclusion is that original version is THE one, but if you cannot understand the original version language, the others options are fine.


----------



## Ayazid

Juan Nadie said:


> I fail to see "objective" advantages of subtitling beyond the fact that it's easier to watch a film when you are not used to dubbing and feel disturbed by it. (As you can see, your naked opinion turned over. Not my own opinion, btw).
> 
> You are not an extremist because of disliking something, but because of "  I find really annoying since I simply hate [dubbing]". Anyhow,  extremists use to have a good reasoning, I just wanted to enjoy yours



Well, the thing is that both with subtitles and dubbing the viewers will more or less know what is going on and therefore will have a chance to enjoy the movie (in case they would not speak the language of the movie). In that sense both options work just fine and as the saying goes _de gustibus non est disputandum_. It's really just a matter of personal taste. 

In my case, I dislike dubbing because to me it feels very unnatural and unauthentic. I want to hear the original language and the true voice of the actor. I don't care that thanks to some Jaromír Procházka or Kateřina Drtinová I don't have to read subtitles or that they have more "impressive" voices than Antonio Banderas or Zhang Ziyi. I just don't need and don't want to hear them, because I am still aware of the fact that those voices are "false" and recorded in some Czech studio. Subtitles don't bother me nearly as much and I don't mind them even when I understand the language, but have some difficulties to understand the actors (because of their accent or rapidity of speech).

Which leads me to believe that an "objective" advantage of dubbing might be its usefulness for language learning. When people have at least basic knowledge of a language or it is enough similar to their native tongue, then watching of subtitled movies or shows in it might help them to improve their ability to understand its spoken form, to get used to the pronunciation, various accents of the language etc. In the Czech republic, in spite of being a small country, it's not so difficult to live without having the need to use any foreign language. Although nowadays it's compulsory to learn foreign languages in school (minimally English), even most young people know them rather poorly. I am sure that if they had the chance to watch most movies subtitled just as their peers in for example Netherlands or Slovenia, their skills would be better (at least in English, with subtitled films and programmes it would be present in TV all day long).


----------



## Fernando

If your aim is to improve your knoledge of a foreign language it is objectively better subtitling.

If you like cinema and you want to fully evaluate actors, subtitling is also better.

If your aim is just to enjoy a film, dubbing is objectively better. You just sit down in front on TV (or do whatever you want in your home) and watch Avatar without worrying about losing a phrase in the film because you are not watching subtitles.

In Spain we have subtitling theaters ("cines en versión original") and dubbing theaters (90%?). Most people prefer dubbed films. 

As mentioned before, the government of Catalonia (strongly pro-Catalan use) is subsidising Catalan dubbing and trying to obligue the theaters to show the films dubbed in Catalan, because they feel that only dubbed films are watched by big audiences. They think that Spanish dubbing is a way to maintain Catalan as a second language. 

To me, it is an evidence that people (at least in Spain, where we have a sad record on foreign languages) prefer dubbing.


----------



## The Machine of Zhu

Fernando said:


> If your aim is just to enjoy a film, dubbing is objectively better. You just sit down in front on TV (or do whatever you want in your home) and watch Avatar without worrying about losing a phrase in the film because you are not watching subtitles.



I'm not so sure about this. Most people I know, if not everyone I know here in Flanders (and the Netherlands) would prefer a subtitled film and would not even enjoy a dubbed one. 

I'm not worried about missing something because a) I watch DVDs so I can rewind, b) I have digital TV so I can rewind and c) you can grab your popcorn or whatever when there's no talking. 



> In Spain we have subtitling theaters ("cines en versión original") and dubbing theaters (90%?). Most people prefer dubbed films.



If we had a choice here, I'd say about 90% would go to the subtitled films.


----------



## MOC

I think it would be an even higher percentage in Portugal. I think the actual proof is to see how much the lip sync technique in dubbing is mocked in comedy shows around here.


----------



## Ottilie

In Moldova all the movies on television are dubbed in Russian,maybe that's how they buy them,however,on torrents sometimes one can find the original movie,but that happens when they get it right after the movie appeared in the US in cinemas


----------



## Grux

The Machine of Zhu said:


> Most people I know, if not everyone I know here in Flanders (and the Netherlands) would prefer a subtitled film and would not even enjoy a dubbed one.



Perhaps it depends on the quality of dubbing. In Spain, dubbing actors are generally very good. If you didn't know the original actors and you don't look directly at their lips, you wouldn't notice that the voices are dubbed. 

If you don't understand the original language, a well dubbed film can be enjoyed more than the original version (unless your prejudices prevent you from enjoying it.)



The Machine of Zhu said:


> I'm not worried about missing something because a) I watch DVDs so I can rewind, b) I have digital TV so I can rewind and c) you can grab your popcorn or whatever when there's no talking.


I agree if you are watching something in DVD and you are ONLY doing this. But if you are watching TV or if you are with someone 
who can distract you, it is very difficult to read everything, and easy to lose some important key.


----------



## Red Arrow

I have been trying to figure out in vain what the RTBF news bulletin's dubbing / subbing policy is like. There seemed to be no logic behind it. So I looked it up...

1) Dutch gets subtitled if the footage is more than 1 hour old. (Live stuff can be dubbed)
2) English and German are also often subtitled, but it is not a necessity. (I think as a general rule, Belgians are subtitled as little as possible)
3) Other languages are always dubbed.
4) On the radio, everything is dubbed into French.

VRT subtitles everything on TV and typically paraphrases everything on the radio. For instance, if Putin says something, it will be in Russian on Flemish radio channels, followed or preceded by a paraphrase.


----------



## Penyafort

Hulalessar said:


> In Spain almost all foreign language films shown on TV are dubbed into Spanish. A law was passed in Franco's time requiring films to be dubbed.



Dubbing in Spain existed alredy before Franco. In fact, both Spanish and Catalan first dubbings took place in 1931, right at the beginning of Second Republic. (Eight years later, Franco would force everything to be in Spanish. No English, no Catalan)

Dubbing in Spanish, Catalan, French and Italian started very early indeed, in between 1929 and 1931, that is, as soon as talkies became a thing.

Regarding Catalan, this one below was the very first dubbed movie, the French 1931 Chatin's _Bric-à-brac et compagnie_, starring Fernandel, one of the greatest comic actors from France then, famous around Europe. (It's a historical and linguistic document, as it shows how only 90 years ago Barcelonians sounded just as Catalan as the rest of Catalonia.)


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Whoa, how interesting. I'm used to hearing Catalan that sounds so much like Spanish that it takes me a while to decide which is which but that is very different indeed.


----------



## merquiades

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Whoa, how interesting. I'm used to hearing Catalan that sounds so much like Spanish that it takes me a while to decide which is which but that is very different indeed.


Yes, it sounds more like continental Portuguese.


----------



## apmoy70

Here only children's movies and Disney productions are dubbed (don't know why, but Disney's films require Greek dubbing, with well known Greek actors seriously auditioning for the roles, and two copies of the movie are released, one dubbed, one with subtitles). There were some attempts to release dubbed movies in the '80's but they flopped and they switched to subtitling. We're not used to dubbing. I remember when I was a boy, I used to sit next to my grandma and reading the subtitles for her as she had difficulties with reading small fonts. She liked Hollywood musicals from the 1930's-'40's (with Fred Astaire & Ginger Rogers)


----------



## Sepia

Ottilie said:


> In Moldova all the movies on television are dubbed in Russian,maybe that's how they buy them,however,on torrents sometimes one can find the original movie,but that happens when they get it right after the movie appeared in the US in cinemas




Are they really dubbed or just with voice over translation like they used to do in Russia?


----------



## bamia

Many Dutch commercials are entirely in English, they're not subtitled. Movies and series in foreign languages are subtitled by default, albeit often badly so. Movies and series for children used to be dubbed but I think nowadays many people opt for Netflix or YouTube, I suppose that stuff is all subtitled rather than dubbed. People who speak Dutch or Flemish with a really strong regional accent are usually subtitled.


----------



## Red Arrow

Many commercials? Rather "some". Dubbing is definitely the norm when it comes to advertising. Sure, when there is a famous actor or whatever, then he/she is left undubbed.


----------



## Hakro

Nowadays many Finnish TV-programs (news etc.) are subtitled in Finnish. It is said to be done for people with hearing problems but it's useful also for ordinary people (like me) who have difficulties to understand the lousy pronunciation of TV-people.


----------



## AutumnOwl

Hakro said:


> Nowadays many Finnish TV-programs (news etc.) are subtitled in Finnish. It is said to be done for people with hearing problems but it's useful also for ordinary people (like me) who have difficulties to understand the lousy pronunciation of TV-people.


The same is true in Sweden, it's possible to choose if you want Swedish programmes texted in Swedish, and sometimes even in sign language. When it comes to dubbing, traditionally it has only been films and cartoons for young children that has been dubbed. Recently one of the movie streaming sites have began to dub other films for teens and adults into Swedish, although it's also possible to choose the undubbed version too.
As for me, if I had to chose between seeing a dubbed film, or do something else, I would skip seeing the film.


----------



## Red Arrow

AutumnOwl said:


> Recently one of the movie streaming sites have began to dub other films for teens and adults into Swedish, although it's also possible to choose the undubbed version too.


Which site does that?


----------



## AutumnOwl

Red Arrow said:


> Which site does that?


Därför väljer Netflix att dubba allt fler filmer till svenska

The opinion of many Swedes:
Netflix svenska förändring sågas: ”Känns som en parodi”


----------



## Red Arrow

Netflix also dubbed Fuller House into Dutch, but to be fair, it "feels" like something that could air on Disney Channel.

(Until the mid 2000s, sitcoms for children were subtitled here, but now they are dubbed. We can thank American channels (Nickelodeon & Disney Channel) for that)


----------



## Linnets

In Italy happened the opposite: some series have been recently broadcast in original language with subtitles or, more commonly, as an option, thanks to digital TV and streaming platforms. A good deal of commercials are in English only; George Clooney, always dubbed in movies, sports his own voice in Nespresso ads.


----------



## bamia

Linnets said:


> A good deal of commercials are in English only; George Clooney, always dubbed in movies, sports his own voice in Nespresso ads.


Yes, that's a good example. The Dutch Nespresso commercial featuring George Clooney (and John Malkovich, I think)  was entirely English spoken as well, albeit with Dutch subtitles.



Red Arrow said:


> Many commercials? Rather "some". Dubbing is definitely the norm when it comes to advertising. Sure, when there is a famous actor or whatever, then he/she is left undubbed.



It's quite common - in fact, some commercials that aired in the Netherlands are in another language than Dutch or English and they're subtitled in English. This one is a classic, everyone remembers it. It has English subtitles rather than Dutch ones


----------



## Red Arrow

But now you are ignoring the majority of ads that are dubbed into Dutch (for instance the laundry ads).

In fact I cannot imagine seeing an English ad on Dutch television unless the speaker is some well-known celebrity.


----------



## pimlicodude

In the Russian-speaking word, everything is dubbed. It can be quite annoying, because a lot of films can be found on sites like kinopoisk, but only dubbed. So if you're looking for a rare English-language film that is not easily downloadable on the Internet, you often find that it exists on the Russian Internet, but without the original soundtrack. Russian sites ignore copyright in other words, and provide a huge selection of Western films for copyright-busting download, but not with the original audio tracks! 

The quality of dubbing has improved a lot over time. The word for "dubbed" is дублированный. You need to look for professional dubbing (профессиональный) and those with dubbing by different voices (многоголосый). Strange to say, but in the 1990s, foreign films were often dubbed with a single reader reading the translation of the entire film - you could hear the original foreign-language soundtrack, but over the top someone read the Russian translation of all the parts, male, female, in a single monotonous voice. This is called одноголосый дубляж, dubbing with a single voice. Of course, that totally destroys the user experience.


----------



## Terio

In Quebec, dubbing is complex matter. Popular films and television programs are generally dubbed.

Some are dubbed in France. They are often too close to France French. To Quebecers, it may seem unlikely and ridiculous that an American gangster speak using European French slang words that we know only because we hear those words only in French films.

Some are dubbed here, but using an "International" French. Using a typically Quebec French would sound ridiculous too as would be, I suppose, dubbing a French film using  a strong Texas or Newfoundland English.

So, finding the right balance may be touchy.

Another aspect is that the market is relatively small. In France, there are protectionist laws that prevent the distributionon of films dubbed en Quebec, and the language used may seem strange to French ears anyway. But the same measures cannot be taken here against films dubbed in France, because it would be too expensive to make two different versions and the films would just not be unavailable here.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

pimlicodude said:


> The quality of dubbing has improved a lot over time. The word for "dubbed" is дублированный. You need to look for professional dubbing (профессиональный) and those with dubbing by different voices (многоголосый). Strange to say, but in the 1990s, foreign films were often dubbed with a single reader reading the translation of the entire film - you could hear the original foreign-language soundtrack, but over the top someone read the Russian translation of all the parts, male, female, in a single monotonous voice. This is called одноголосый дубляж, dubbing with a single voice. Of course, that totally destroys the user experience.


I saw this on Polish TV circa 2008. Of course, it's a ridiculous experience and only good for laughs.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Terio said:


> In France, there are protectionist laws that prevent the distributionon of films dubbed en Quebec


I knew this already but it's still insane!


----------



## Red Arrow

French television has lots of Belgian voice-actors though.


----------

