# BCS: Hraniti - Gasiti



## Tassos

A couple of questions for you:

*Hraniti* --> wiktionary and hjp both say it means *feed* but R. Alexander's book translates it also as *preserve*. Are both meanings correct? Also, the book gives the perfective partner for the *preserve* meaning as _*sahraniti*_. Does that hold for the *feed* meaning too?

*Gasiti* --> I have two perfectives here, *ugasiti* from my book and *gansuti* from hjp. Are they both correct? And generally is it possible for an imperfective verb to have two perfective partners, one from suffixation and one from prefixation?

Thanx!


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## VelikiMag

Tassos said:


> *Hraniti* --> wiktionary and hjp both say it means *feed* but R. Alexander's book translates it also as *preserve*. Are both meanings correct? Also, the book gives the perfective partner for the *preserve* meaning as _*sahraniti*_. Does that hold for the *feed* meaning too?


Today, _hraniti_ exclusively means _to feed_. It is probably possible that somewhere in the literature one can find this verb in the meaning of _preserve/protect_, because in the Old Church Slavonic and even in modern Russian it means exactly that. But in modern Serbian it doesn't. The exception which comes to my mind is the word _tjelohranitelj_ - the one who protects you, not the one who feeds you.

In Montenegro, occasionally you can hear _raniti _(rānȉti, the initial _h _was dropped) and it means _to put (something in a safe place)_ ≈ _to preserve_. But it is not a standard word and in other regions you probably wouldn't be understood.

In Croatia they have _pohraniti / pohranjivati_ which means _to preserve, to save_. I have usually heard it in the sense of saving data to a computer.

_Sahraniti _is a perfect form of _sahranjivati_, not of _hraniti_. And it means _to bury_. (In Russian _сохранить_ means _to preserve_)


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## Brainiac

_Sahraniti_ is opposite from _to preserve_ - when you're alive! But when something/sombody dies, you preserve it -  sahraniti (pokopati): preserve (sth) in the ground. (symbolically)


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## VelikiMag

Tassos said:


> *Gasiti* --> I have two perfectives here, *ugasiti* from my book and *gansuti* from hjp. Are they both correct?


I have never heard _gasnuti_. I wouldn't even know what it could mean. Perfect forms of _gasiti_ are _ugasiti_ and  _pogasiti_.



Tassos said:


> And generally is it possible for an imperfective verb to have two perfective partners, one from suffixation and one from prefixation?


I'm not sure about this one, but sometimes a perfective verb has two imperfective counterparts:
pročitati - čitati / pročitavati
istrčati - trčati / istrčavati


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## Tassos

Based on your replies I started rechecking the prefixed aspect partners of my book and I found a couple of discrepancies.
For example it gives the following as *aspect pairs*:
braniti <--> zabraniti (zabranjivati)
šiti <--> sašiti (sašivati)
moliti <--> zamoliti (zamoljavati)
ljutiti <--> razljutiti (razljućivati)
In the parenthesis of course is the _other_ imperfective partner of the perfective verb (the so-called _derived_ imperfective).
The book says of course, that when you put a prefix on a verb it changes its meaning further than just adding the "perfectivity". And that from all the prefixed perfectives we choose the most "neutral" as its perfective partner. So, for example, *pisati* has 14 prefixed perfectives but throughout the book *napisati* is chosen as its perfective partner. Now I see that all this is not as clear as it seems (still I have to say I always thought pročitati as the partner of čitati). I guess it all means that with prefixation you can never get a perfective partner that fits *exactly. *You have to know the subtle differences in meaning to choose the one that fits better what you have to say.
You must undestand of course that when you are a new learner of the language and you are talking to someone and want to say e.g. "What will you read?" or "What will you write?", it's nice to have something ready to use and not search in your mind among the 7 prefixed forms of čitati or the 14 prefixed forms of pisati for the right one 
As for the imperfectives there is the distinction between the *trajni* and *učestali* imperfectives. My book says that this distinction is little used today simply because a few verbs have both these imperfectives. But as we currenty see maybe they are not so few


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## VelikiMag

Sometimes the meaning could be slightly changed, as you have noticed. It depends in which situation you use it. I guess you must have some experience as well. For example, _braniti _means _to forbid_, and the perfect form is _zabraniti_. But _braniti_ also means _to defend_, in that case the perfect form is _odbraniti_.
You shouldn't worry too much about those other forms in brackets. They aren't used that often and as long as you understand what they mean, there is no need that you use them yourself. The 'simple' imperfective form will usually do.

Could you write here some of those forms for _pisati_? Maybe we could clarify them for you.


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## Brainiac

VelikiMag said:


> I have never heard _gasnuti_. I wouldn't even know what it could mean. Perfect forms of _gasiti_ are _ugasiti_ and  _pogasiti_.



Never heard of it?  Frankly, my grandma uses it often, but I may bump into this word in some "arty" books:



> ...i dok bi slaba _svetlost_ života *gasnula* u pojedinim smrznutim mozgovima.





> Dnevna _svetlost_ je _gasnula_, ali on je prepoznade bez teškoća





> ... u smiraj dana, na _svetlosti_ koja je sve više _*gasnula*._





> ...dok je Vincelovska _vatra_ u Požego polako *gasnula*,...



"One translation of the Serbian term *gasnuti in English is extinguish;quench;turn off*."



VelikiMag said:


> I'm not sure about this one, but sometimes a perfective verb has two imperfective counterparts:
> pročitati - čitati / pročitavati
> istrčati - trčati / istrčavati



I have never used "*pročitavati*" in my life! I use "*iščitavati*" instead.


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## Tassos

OK!
What I already know:

napisati - write to the end ("neutral" partner)
opisati - describe
potpisati - sign my name
prepisati - copy, prescribe medicine
propisati - issue, regulate

What I don't know:

dopisati
ispisati
otpisati
popisati
pripisati
raspisati
upisati
zapisati
nadopisati

(to all the new learners of BCS - Not ALL the verbs have so many prefixed forms  )


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## VelikiMag

Just as I thought! Good news for you is that all those verbs aren't perfective forms of _pisati_, but have separate imperfective forms. Only the root is the same, but the meaning of all of them is different.



> napisati - pisati - write to the end ("neutral" partner)
> 
> opisati - opisivati - describe
> potpisati - potpisivati - sign my name
> prepisati - prepisivati - copy, prescribe medicine
> propisati - propisivati - issue, regulate
> 
> What I don't know:
> 
> dopisati - dopisivati - to add (to the text)
> ispisati - ispisivati - to write out
> otpisati - otpisivati - to discard, to write off
> popisati - popisivati - to list
> pripisati - pripisivati - to ascribe
> raspisati - raspisivati - to announce
> upisati - upisivati - to write in
> zapisati - zapisivati - to note
> nadopisati - nadopisivati - same as dopisati, but I haven't seen this one


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## Brainiac

*dopisati* - to add a few (or more) words to the sth you've already written (or somebody else wrote, but then is usually dodati - to add)

*nadopisati *- like dopisati, like to add another note, but rarely used. I don't use, for example, this verb.

*ispisati* - to write everything or to write down words (you heard, you have in your head...)

ispisati se - to withdraw, to sign out, to cancel sth  (membership, subscription...), to retreat, pull away, draw/move back, 
ispisati iz (škole) - to withdraw a child from a school, (to sign out, take out)

*otpisati* - http://onlinerecnik.com/recnik/srpski/engleski/otpisati

*popisati* - http://onlinerecnik.com/recnik/srpski/engleski/popisati

.....

Go to *onlinerecnik.com*, you have all the verbs there... if you have question or if you don't understand sth, come back and ask. 

You have expressions with those verbs too. And Srpski leksikon, Serbian-Serbian dictionary.

I hope it will help you.


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## VelikiMag

@Brainiac
Well, "arty" books aren't really the language which we use every day. You can't say _gasnuti svetlo _or _gasnuti kompjuter_ 
According to HJP, gasnuti is a perfective verb. That was an original question here. And in your examples it somehow carries an imperfective meaning, especially with _sve više_. It would be more like reflexive imperfective _gasiti se_. Anyway, I didn't see it until today.


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## Brainiac

@Veliki Mag
Those arty books are now "in" among young people and they like to play with words and invent new styles, I don't see why should our creativity be bothered by strict rules.

Of course you don't say gasnuti komp or gasni sijalicu 
but we say _pali/gasi_ kompjuter insread of _uključi/isključ_i kompjuter

If you haven't heard of it, check here:
http://dictionary.faxo.com/gasnuti


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## Duya

VelikiMag said:


> @Brainiac
> According to HJP, gasnuti is a perfective verb. That was an original question here. And in your examples it somehow carries an imperfective meaning, especially with _sve više_. It would be more like reflexive imperfective _gasiti se_. Anyway, I didn't see it until today.



I sense it as bi-aspectual (and your quotes agree with me), though it is so rare and poetic that it does not matter much.



Brainiac said:


> @Veliki Mag
> but we say _pali/gasi_ kompjuter insread of _uključi/isključ_i kompjuter



Who 'we'? Both types of expression are in widespread use, when applied to machinery of all sorts. The only use where _pali/gasi_ clearly prevails over _uključi/isključi_ is with lightning (_svetlo/sijalicu/reflektor_ etc.), because of obvious analogy with candles.


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## Brainiac

> Who 'we'? Both types of expression are in widespread use, when applied to machinery of all sorts. The only use where _pali/gasi_ clearly prevails over _uključi/isključi_ is with lightning (_svetlo/sijalicu/reflektor_ etc.), because of obvious analogy with candles.



You are not in 'we'. (we - young people)



> The only use where _pali/gasi_ clearly prevails over _uključi/isključi_ is with lightning (_svetlo/sijalicu/reflektor_ etc.)



Reflektori se uključuju i isključuju, a ne pale i gase (a u ovi sam sigurna jer to spada u deo moje profesije). Isto važi za duga i kratka svetla (u pozorištu, npr)
Čak sam guglovala, evo rezultata:

uključiti reflektore - 234.000 rezultata
upaliti reflektore - 50.100 rezultata

Mašine se po pravilu uključuju i isključuju, a ne pale i gase, no ova druga varijanta se zaista raširila u običnom govoru. Ali i karijes je običan i čest, ne znači da je dobar i prihvatljiv.

I ne pale se i gase machinery of all sorts, samo one koje svako danas koristi, kao što su komjuteri, kola, TV... Aparati se ne pale i gase, samo uključuju i isključuju. (Aparati nisu isto što i mašine).


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## Tassos

@VelikiMag

Thanks! I think that with pisati it's definitely clear which is the best "partner", the meanings of the others are markedly different. It's a good example of how the whole system works.
On the other hand, a *bad* example in my opinion is letjeti (in the meaning of *fly* of course).
Look what I found
nadletjeti (nadl(ij)etati) - fly over (wiktionary)
odletjeti (odl(ij)etati) - fly away (wiktionary)
preletjeti (prel(ij)etati) - fly over/across (wiktionary)
doletjeti - fly to, arrive in a hurry (hjp - no imperfective is given)
izletjeti - leave a space flying, fly, run (hjp - no imperfective is given)
razletjeti se - fly off in different directions, run in a hurry (hjp - no imperfective is given)
poletjeti (pol(ij)etati) - take off (airplane) (wiktionary)
uzletjeti (uzl(ij)etati) - take off (airplane) (wiktionary)
uletjeti - bounce (srpsko - enlgeski rečnik - no imperfective is given)
naletjeti - pounce, run across (srpsko - enlgeski rečnik - no imperfective is given)

As you can see the differences between the first six are not so clear, and of course you can't say for sure which verb is the neutral pertner of the original letjeti (izletjeti  or maybe there is none and it depends on what you want to say)...

@Brainiac
Thanks for the meanings and the srpsko - enlgeski rečnik!


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## VelikiMag

In general, all these verbs could be a perfective counterpart of _letjeti_, because they are all either the cause or the result of the process of flying. But in the same time they all have their own imperfective pair, which implies that the action which is finished is being repeated over and over.


> doletjeti - dolijetati
> izletjeti - izlijetati
> razletjeti se - razlijetati se
> uletjeti - ulijetati
> naletjeti - nalijetati


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## Brainiac

Oh, you forgot *s*leteti 
sleteti - to fly down, touch down, to alight, to come down, to ground, to land...
sleteti s puta-trake - to run off the road-track


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## YKYPEH

Just wanted to run an idea by you, native speakers. One of the most important differences between 1) gasiti and 2) gasnuti is that 1) is intransitive and 2) is transitive. Someone can "gasiti" something, but things "gasnu" on their own, so to speak... What are your thoughts?


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## Duya

Well, you mixed up the definitions (_gasiti_ is transitive and _gasnuti_ intransitive), but you're right. The synonym for _gasnuti _is _gasiti *se*_ (reflexive). 

_Gasnuti_ is almost exclusively poetic, though. Apart from many false hits, Google search for "gasnem" gives as much as four different poems on first two pages (by Milorad J. Nikić, _D__obroslav Petričević_, Predrag Lucić and Skender Kulenović), as well as few other lyric fragments. And yes, there are few Russian hits as well.


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## Милан

VelikiMag said:


> Today, _hraniti_ exclusively means _to feed_. It is probably possible that somewhere in the literature one can find this verb in the meaning of _preserve/protect_, because in the Old Church Slavonic and even in modern Russian it means exactly that. But in modern Serbian it doesn't. The exception which comes to my mind is the word _tjelohranitelj_ - the one who protects you, not the one who feeds you.


Serbian national anthem
Боже спаси, боже *храни*


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