# Pronunciation of "ii" and "oe"



## UkrainianPolyglot

I was just wondering if the i's are to be pronounced separately or as one long i, as I currently pronounce them. I'd like to know the rule for both the Classic and Ecclesiastical pronunciations. I also thought it'd be superfluous to create another thread concerning "oe", I was wondering whether in Eccleastical Latin the non-diphthongal "oe" as in coepit, coemo (co-epit, co-emo) or coegi (co-egi) would still soften its antecedent letter. Currently I pronounce coepit as "chepit" and coegit as "co-ejit", the latter thus because "e" in this case is long.


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## Nino83

_coepit_: ['kɔepɪt] "Classical pronunciation" ['ʧeːpit] "Ecclesiastical pronunciation"

see  here  (page 11-12)

About "ii", in Classical pronunciation it could be also a sequence of two /i/ but it was pronounced more often /iː/ and now it is pronounced /i/ (if this vowel is not stressed or if it is stressed but the syllable is closed).


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!


Nino83 said:


> ['ʧeːpit] "Ecclesiastical pronunciation"


I'm sorry I cannot at once find them, but there are other threads already on the "correct" pronunciation of "ecclesiastical" Latin. This is nonsense. The Latin of mediaeval science and philosophy and mathematics and logic was spoken in a variety of accents, with no central _Academia Latina_ to direct them to Duden-style regimentation.

What has come to be known as "Ecclesiastical" Latin is simply Latin as it is pronounced in the Italian manner. Gloriously exhibited, of course, in the works of Palestrina and Monteverdi above all. But it's not the way Haydn or Mozart expected their Latin to be sung, and it's not the way it was sung in Elizabethan England either.

Σ


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## Scholiast

salvete...


Nino83 said:


> This is nonsense.
> 
> Latin is spoken in Vatican City. The Pope speaks ecclesiastical Latin. Words like _coepit_ are pronounced['ʧeː].
> End of the story.


Of course His Holiness speaks Latin, but he does so with an Hispanic accent, just as Benedict spoke it with a German accent, and John-Paul II with a Polish accent.

The same thing applies to the way Latin is said, or sung (_ad maiorem Dei gloriam_) wherever it is - even in these godless British Isles.

Σ


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## Scholiast

salvete iterum



Nino83 said:


> Yes, of course, but they don't say /'seːpit/ or / 'siːpɪt/. In that case the right phoneme is /ʧ/.



There *is* no "right" phoneme, because there is no "correct" ecclesiastical Latin. There are just the forms and pronunciations  of Latin used, in music and liturgy, in all the various (and thank God, widespread) parts of the globe.

Σ


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## Scholiast

salve Nino83



Nino83 said:


> Until there is something called ecclesiastical pronunciation, followed by who speaks Latin, I report it.



I am genuinely mystified by what this is intended to mean.

Σ


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## Scholiast

Sodales omnes!


Nino83 said:


> I reccomend the English pronunciation /'seːpɪt/ or / 'siːpɪt/.


Let's get this straight: I am not irritated!
Just anxious to contribute to knowledge and understanding.
In singing, the "English" pronunciation, incidentally, would be "chay-pit", and in German "Tserpit".
And in Russian or Ukrainian, as Nino83 says, you just pronounce as it comes naturally.
Σ


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## Nino83

Scholiast said:


> In singing, the "English" pronunciation, incidentally, would be "chay-pit", and in German "Tserpit".



Anyway Pope Ratzinger pronounced /ke/ like /ʧe/, probably because "ecclesiastical pronunciation" exists and he followed it.  
If you're interested, you can watch the video of his resignations.  
He pronounces "Su*cce*ssoris Sancti Petri", "va*ce*t", "Summum Pontefi*ce*m", "Summo Pontefi*ce*" /ʧe/.


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## Pugnator

Scholiast said:


> salvete omnes!
> 
> I'm sorry I cannot at once find them, but there are other threads already on the "correct" pronunciation of "ecclesiastical" Latin. This is nonsense. The Latin of mediaeval science and philosophy and mathematics and logic was spoken in a variety of accents, with no central _Academia Latina_ to direct them to Duden-style regimentation.
> 
> What has come to be known as "Ecclesiastical" Latin is simply Latin as it is pronounced in the Italian manner. Gloriously exhibited, of course, in the works of Palestrina and Monteverdi above all. But it's not the way Haydn or Mozart expected their Latin to be sung, and it's not the way it was sung in Elizabethan England either.
> 
> Σ


Currently there are a Vatican Latin academy , it was created on 2012. Anyway  you are wrong, ecclesiastic pronunciation isn't Italian manner.We also know who diffused this false myth (I will not quote his name to don't give him publicity) but he wasn't a linguistic, so he may also be a professor but he still has no title on linguistic, who care if he wrote book (and not scientific publication) where he claimed that. Anyway the so called "ecclesiastic pronunciation" was the spoken latin of late imperial age and middle age, we know it for sure by source.


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## Nino83

The simple fact that the *German* Pope, Ratzinger, pronounces "ce" /ʧe/ and not /tse/, like Germans should pronounce it, according to Scholiast, is a proof of the existence of the ecclesiastical pronunciation.


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## Scholiast

Greetings again


Nino83 said:


> Anyway Pope Ratzinger pronounced /ke/ like /ʧe/, probably because "ecclesiastical pronunciation" exists and he followed it.
> If you're interested, you can watch the video of his resignations.


Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict has been domiciled in Rome since 1981, so it would be surprising if his pronunciation of Latin had not become more Italianate over the years. If you hear a Latin mass celebrated in a German church (or a German choir singing Latin works, secular or sacred), as I frequently have, you will hear what I mean.
Σ


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## Pugnator

Scholiast said:


> Greetings again
> 
> Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict has been domiciled in Rome since 1981, so it would be surprising if his pronunciation of Latin had not become more Italianate over the years. If you hear a Latin mass celebrated in a German church (or a German choir singing Latin works, secular or sacred), as I frequently have, you will hear what I mean.
> Σ


For a papal bull all mass should be pronunced according to ecclesiastic pronunciation,(I'm speaking about catholics , but there are a lot of protestant and reformed on Germany that do what thy want) but the ecclesiastic pronunciation wasn't invented by the church and isn't an italianizzed pronounce neither was born only on Italy. We know it for wrote source of volgar latin and medieval latin from all Europe.


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