# This is me the summer after I graduated.



## David Smith 100

I came across the website It’s Me vs It is I and two examples of "This is me" are used:

"This is me the summer after I graduated.
This is me when I joined the Marines."

Technically speaking, although to many it may come across as stilted speech, is it correct to say "This is I" even in the two examples above?


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## se16teddy

David Smith 100 said:


> is it correct


Can you please clarify what you mean by "correct"? For what purpose do you want to know whether it is correct or not?


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## entangledbank

I can't imagine anyone saying 'I' there. I'm not sure what it is about the phrases attached to the pronoun, but they definitely block the possibility 'I'.


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## Enquiring Mind

There's a previous thread here: this is I or this is me. No-one says "this is I", unless they are deliberately making a mistake in order to sound funny (and I'm not sure whether I mean funny-peculiar or funny-ha ha).


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## PaulQ

A point to bear in mind is that English does have a *disjunctive *form of the pronoun that is the same as the objective case

I -> me
He ->him
She -> her
We -> us
They -> them

A: "Who wants an ice cream?"
B: "Me"

A: "Who broke the window?"
B: "Him."

"It is me/him/us/them" 

If you speak French and translate "It is me" you will see the French disjunctive form.


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## Hermione Golightly

If you meet anybody who thinks this use of 'I' is acceptable, be very suspicious of them, and keep as far away from them as you possibly can!
The only person I know who uses 'I' like this is 86 years old, an incredible snob and in the early stages of dementia.


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## David Smith 100

se16teddy said:


> Can you please clarify what you mean by "correct"? For what purpose do you want to know whether it is correct or not?



Whether or not it is correct according to the rules of English grammar. It appears that even though it's very unlikely anyone would say "This is I" in such cases, technically that is the correct form that should be used, irrespective of whether it's considered pedantic or whatever.



entangledbank said:


> I can't imagine anyone saying 'I' there. I'm not sure what it is about the phrases attached to the pronoun, but they definitely block the possibility 'I'.



Likewise. But, according to the rules of English grammar, there aren't any exceptions so it should also be said in the two cases as well. 



Enquiring Mind said:


> There's a previous thread here: this is I or this is me. No-one says "this is I", unless they are deliberately making a mistake in order to sound funny (and I'm not sure whether I mean funny-peculiar or funny-ha ha).



I've heard the odd person say it but it's true that generally people do just say "it's me" or "'this is me", but strictly speaking those are both wrong.

You think people would think the person who said it made a mistake? I'm not entirely sure about that one.



PaulQ said:


> A point to bear in mind is that English does have a *disjunctive *form of the pronoun that is the same as the objective case
> 
> I -> me
> He ->him
> She -> her
> We -> us
> They -> them
> 
> A: "Who wants an ice cream?"
> B: "Me"
> 
> A: "Who broke the window?"
> B: "Him."
> 
> "It is me/him/us/them"
> 
> If you speak French and translate "It is me" you will see the French disjunctive form.



I agree with you that thee majority of people will say those that you have listed.

But the traditional rule states that if a pronoun follows a linking verb, the pronoun should be in the subject case.


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## David Smith 100

Hermione Golightly said:


> If you meet anybody who thinks this use of 'I' is acceptable, be very suspicious of them, and keep as far away from them as you possibly can!
> The only person I know who uses 'I' like this is 86 years old, an incredible snob and in the early stages of dementia.



Really? Haha! 

So if you were to hear someone in their 20s or 30s speaking as such you would assume that they were a snob? Interesting.

I would have thought a lot of people would have thought that it would be nice to hear someone following traditional rules rather than accepted forms of informal speech/slang.


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## Sparky Malarky

*"This is me the summer after I graduated.
This is me when I joined the Marines."*

When would you ever say this?  The only time I can imagine saying such a thing is if you are looking at an old photograph.  *This is *a picture of *me.*


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## JulianStuart

David Smith 100 said:


> Really? Haha!
> 
> So if you were to hear someone in their 20s or 30s speaking as such you would assume that they were a snob? Interesting.
> 
> I would have thought a lot of people would have thought that it would be nice to hear someone following traditional rules rather than accepted forms of informal speech/slang.


I would say they were clinging desperately to the old ways  It was less than a century ago when "It is I" dominated but it has obviously lost the race (You may need to click the search button there for the graph to be displayed ( for the graph to display?  )


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## David Smith 100

Sparky Malarky said:


> *"This is me the summer after I graduated.
> This is me when I joined the Marines."*
> 
> When would you ever say this?  The only time I can imagine saying such a thing is if you are looking at an old photograph.  *This is *a picture of *me.*



I agree that the usage in the two sentences would sound extremely weird and would probably raise a few eyebrows but I was simply pointing out the dispute over the traditional grammar regarding when a pronoun follows a linking verb.

I think in the two cases it would be better to word the sentence similar to how you demonstrated.


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## David Smith 100

JulianStuart said:


> I would say they were clinging desperately to the old ways  It was less than a century ago when "It is I" dominated but it has obviously lost the race (You may need to click the search button there for the graph to be displayed ( for the graph to display?  )



Thank you for the link. I did have to click the search button but what a striking comparison. 

Do you think it's necessarily wrong to want to stick to traditional rules? 

A lot of informal and slang speech has gradually crept into thee English language and is seen by many to be considered 'acceptable'. 

In fact, the word "creeped" was initially seen as informal is now accepted as a variant of the past tense of 'creep'.


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## JulianStuart

David Smith 100 said:


> Thank you for the link. I did have to click the search button but what a striking comparison.
> 
> Do you think it's necessarily wrong to want to stick to traditional rules?
> 
> A lot of informal and slang speech has gradually crept into thee English language and is seen by many to be considered 'acceptable'.
> 
> In fact, the word "creeped" was initially seen as informal is now accepted as a variant of the past tense of 'creep'.


There are lots of changes happening in English - there always have been.  Presumably the change from It is I to It is me is driven by the general collective set of English speakers, rather than a desire to break the rules that were established by previous generations of speakers.  Are they immutable?  Who determines this?  I included a more recent one where an active verb has become (or is becoming if you still resist it) a "middle" verb  (The document is printing.  The water is boiling etc.).  While I may not have agreed with W. Safire's politics, I can't deny his comment that "When enough of them/us are wrong they/we're right  What thinkest thou?


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## PaulQ

David Smith 100 said:


> But the traditional rule states that if a pronoun follows a linking verb, the pronoun should be in the subject case.


In "It is me", the disjunctive pronoun (me) *is *in the subject case.


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## David Smith 100

JulianStuart said:


> There are lots of changes happening in English - there always have been.  Presumably the change from It is I to It is me is driven by the general collective set of English speakers, rather than a desire to break the rules that were established by previous generations of speakers.  Are they immutable?  Who determines this?  I included a more recent one where an active verb has become (or is becoming if you still resist it) a "middle" verb  (The document is printing.  The water is boiling etc.).  While I may not have agreed with W. Safire's politics, I can't deny his comment that "When enough of them/us are wrong they/we're right  What thinkest thou?



Of course there are lots of changes in any language and things do eventually change over time but just because a general consensus happens either in a region or overall does not mean that a rule should be dismissed and replaced. 

Another example is that the subjunctive case is largely ignored, I think a lot of native speakers aren't even aware of it and when I hear in either in public or on TV "if I was you" I literally cringe. 

In certain parts of England, normally said by the youth, there are in my opinion annoying phrases such as "innit bruv" for "isn't it, brother?", "wag one" for "what's going on" or "yolo" for "you only live once", etc. I would like to think that the future generations of youth will not be replacing those examples with the more formal and educated words and phrases such as "how are you?", etc.

I think it all comes down to how you view language, whether you see it as an important part of communication and your life in general or you simply don't really care how yourself or other people speak.


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## David Smith 100

PaulQ said:


> In "It is me", the disjunctive pronoun (me) *is *in the subject case.



Not in English. In English it is always "It is I" when sticking to traditional grammar rules.

"It Is I" Versus "It Is Me"

Grammar Bytes! :: The Subject Complement

“It is I” vs. “It's Me” - Everything After Z by Dictionary.com

It's me or It's I?

The reason "It is me" has been more common and generally accepted is because "It is I" sounds rather pedantic and stilted to a lot of people's ears.


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## JulianStuart

David Smith 100 said:


> The reason "It is me" has been more common and generally accepted is because "It is I" sounds rather pedantic and stilted to a lot of people's ears.


That trend is the "collective" opinion being expressed by current day English speakers, what-ho, don't you know, chaps

As changes begin, most will say "Oooh that's wrong"  When lots of people start using it, it is because they "prefer" it for some reason.  Then when almost everyone uses it, the old way sounds "wrong".  Where one is on the spectrum of that changes will vary from person to person and individual change to change.  They can rise to the level of peeves, too (fortunately, my personal peeve right now is not linguistic, but vertical video from cell phones  - I can never see what's going on!)


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## kalamazoo

We don't speak following grammar rules; grammar rules are invented to codify and explain how we speak.  If current day well-educated native English speakers almost exclusively would say "This is me" then that should be considered "correct" and the rules should reflect that.


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## Loob

Where do your "rules of English grammar" come from, David?


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## ewie

David Smith 100 said:


> So if you were to hear someone in their 20s or 30s speaking as such you would assume that they were a snob?


I wouldn't think they were a snob*: I'd think they were mental.


David Smith 100 said:


> "It is I" sounds rather pedantic and stilted to a lot of people's ears.


And the reason it sounds rather extremely pedantic and stilted is because _people just don't say it any more_.  That's just how it is.
It's the same as using _thou_ [post #13]: people just don't *do* it any more.  It's not because there was anything *wrong* with _thou_: people simply stopped using it.

*I notice that you're happy to use singular-plural _they_, as in _If someone said "It is I", I'd think *they were* mental_.  A hundred years ago you'd have been publicly lynched for doing that


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## PaulQ

David Smith 100 said:


> Not in English. In English it is always "It is I" when sticking to traditional grammar rules.


I am English and always have been... please see my signature. English is constantly evolving and probably more rapidly than any other language. The mere statement that there is a "rule" indicates that there is someone to enforce it - English is determined by popular vote.

More to the point, 18th century linguists assumed a greater relation to Latin than can be justified: if the "rule" is insisted upon, there is the difficulty of explaining all of these.
From the OED under "me (pron.)
*5.* For the subjective pronoun I.Several of these uses (especially senses A. 5a), while common in colloquial English, have been regarded as nonstandard by many grammarians _*since the 18th cent.*_
*a. Forming with another pronoun or a noun the subject of a plural verb. Cf. I pron. 2a.*
1380   in W. Fraser Douglas Bk. (1885) III. 28   Me and myn ayres..haue releissit..al my rycht clayme persuit chalenge or askyng..to fourty markis worth of land.
*b. As sole head of a noun phrase forming the subject. Now regional, esp. Caribbean.*
c1380   Charter Edinb. Reg. House in Dict. Older Sc. Tongue at Ken   Be it kennyt till al men throch this presens me..haf hecht [etc.].
*d. Predicative.*
a1592   R. Greene Frier Bacon (1594) sig. F4   Marg...Who or of whome loue shall constraine me like. Serlsbie. Let it be me and trust me Margret.
a1616   Shakespeare Two Gentlemen of Verona (1623) ii. iii. 22   Oh, the dogge is me, and I am my selfe.
* f. With ellipsis of verb (usually in dialogue); frequently in me neither (see neither adv. 3b) and me too, signifying the sharing of or acquiescing in another person's view, experience, or desire* (
1971   Black World June 81/2   ‘I just asked.’ ‘Had no business asking.’ ‘Says who?’ ‘Me, stupid!’
*h. Introducing a sentence or clause with a participle. Cf. senses A. 5c   and A. 6a.*
1989  R. Bass _Oil Notes_ 172  Me padding around in down booties in the quiet house.


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## Loob

Nice one, Paul....

David: what is it you're looking for from your questions here?


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## Hermione Golightly

> ...*technically *that is the *correct *form that *should* be used, *irrespective *of whether it's *considered pedantic or whatever.*



(I have only glanced through the further responses and I'm responding only to the quote above.)

I have highlighted the eye-brow raising elements of your response.
You say you are a native speaker. So am I.


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## Hermione Golightly

> David: what is it you're looking for from your questions here?


My very own thoughts, dear Loob.


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## David Smith 100

JulianStuart said:


> That trend is the "collective" opinion being expressed by current day English speakers, what-ho, don't you know, chaps
> 
> As changes begin, most will say "Oooh that's wrong"  When lots of people start using it, it is because they "prefer" it for some reason.  Then when almost everyone uses it, the old way sounds "wrong".  Where one is on the spectrum of that changes will vary from person to person and individual change to change.  They can rise to the level of peeves, too (fortunately, my personal peeve right now is not linguistic, but vertical video from cell phones  - I can never see what's going on!)





kalamazoo said:


> We don't speak following grammar rules; grammar rules are invented to codify and explain how we speak.  If current day well-educated native English speakers almost exclusively would say "This is me" then that should be considered "correct" and the rules should reflect that.



Grammar rules tell us the 'correct' way to speak. A language would be nothing without grammar. Grammar is there for a reason. 

The absurd statement that because a majority of people say "This is me" then that is correct is the fallacy of appeal to popularity. 



Loob said:


> Where do your "rules of English grammar" come from, David?



That's a loaded question. Basic grammar rules which are taught to us at school and other forms of education. 



PaulQ said:


> I am English and always have been... please see my signature. English is constantly evolving and probably more rapidly than any other language. The mere statement that there is a "rule" indicates that there is someone to enforce it - English is determined by popular vote.
> 
> More to the point, 18th century linguists assumed a greater relation to Latin than can be justified: if the "rule" is insisted upon, there is the difficulty of explaining all of these.
> From the OED under "me (pron.)
> *5.* For the subjective pronoun I.Several of these uses (especially senses A. 5a), while common in colloquial English, have been regarded as nonstandard by many grammarians _*since the 18th cent.*_
> *a. Forming with another pronoun or a noun the subject of a plural verb. Cf. I pron. 2a.*
> 1380   in W. Fraser Douglas Bk. (1885) III. 28   Me and myn ayres..haue releissit..al my rycht clayme persuit chalenge or askyng..to fourty markis worth of land.
> *b. As sole head of a noun phrase forming the subject. Now regional, esp. Caribbean.*
> c1380   Charter Edinb. Reg. House in Dict. Older Sc. Tongue at Ken   Be it kennyt till al men throch this presens me..haf hecht [etc.].
> *d. Predicative.*
> a1592   R. Greene Frier Bacon (1594) sig. F4   Marg...Who or of whome loue shall constraine me like. Serlsbie. Let it be me and trust me Margret.
> a1616   Shakespeare Two Gentlemen of Verona (1623) ii. iii. 22   Oh, the dogge is me, and I am my selfe.
> * f. With ellipsis of verb (usually in dialogue); frequently in me neither (see neither adv. 3b) and me too, signifying the sharing of or acquiescing in another person's view, experience, or desire* (
> 1971   Black World June 81/2   ‘I just asked.’ ‘Had no business asking.’ ‘Says who?’ ‘Me, stupid!’
> *h. Introducing a sentence or clause with a participle. Cf. senses A. 5c   and A. 6a.*
> 1989  R. Bass _Oil Notes_ 172  Me padding around in down booties in the quiet house.



Do you disagree with any of what is said in the links I sent in the message? 

I've already agreed that most people will and do say "This is me" but "This is I" is technically speaking the correct way, it doesn't really matter if it has fallen out of usage or not. 

Could you please provide a source which states that English is "determined by popular vote"? 



Loob said:


> Nice one, Paul....
> 
> David: what is it you're looking for from your questions here?



To see how one would be viewed by using words/phrases like "it is I" or "it was I", etc.



Hermione Golightly said:


> (I have only glanced through the further responses and I'm responding only to the quote above.)
> 
> I have highlighted the eye-brow raising elements of your response.
> You say you are a native speaker. So am I.



Feel free to elaborate.


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## Loob

David Smith 100 said:


> That's a loaded question. Basic grammar rules which are taught to us at school and other forms of education.


Depends on the school....

I'm still puzzled about what you're looking for in your posts here.  Are you wanting people to support or demolish the "basic grammar rules taught to you"?


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## PaulQ

David Smith 100 said:


> I've already agreed that most people will and do say "This is me" but "This is I" is technically speaking the correct way, it doesn't really matter if it has fallen out of usage or not.


The technicality was wrong. The insistence on the universal use of the nominative was a misunderstanding at best, or an arbitrary insistence that seemed to have some authority and was therefore followed - that guidance has been shown to be wrong.

If you are saying "A lot of people think that the verb to be must be followed in all cases by the nominative", then I must agree. If you are saying "The verb to be must be followed in all cases by the nominative" you will see that you are up against it and the argument is untenable.


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## David Smith 100

Loob said:


> Depends on the school....
> 
> I'm still puzzled about what you're looking for in your posts here.  Are you wanting people to support or demolish the "basic grammar rules taught to you"?



If you say so.

I've already explained. I was wondering what people would think of someone who speaks very formal and uses quite old-fashioned grammar rules.



PaulQ said:


> The technicality was wrong. The insistence on the universal use of the nominative was a misunderstanding at best, or an arbitrary insistence that seemed to have some authority and was therefore followed - that guidance has been shown to be wrong.
> 
> If you are saying "A lot of people think that the verb to be must be followed in all cases by the nominative", then I must agree. If you are saying "The verb to be must be followed in all cases by the nominative" you will see that you are up against it and the argument is untenable.



I (pronoun):

When the pronoun is used as a subjective predicative complement, the nominative _I_ is sometimes encountered in (very) formal style:


"It is I."
But this is often seen as hypercorrect and may be unacceptable, as in:


* "This one [photograph] is I as a baby.
_Me_ is usually preferred as a subjective predicate, especially in informal style:


"This is me as a baby."
"It's me!"
Source: Geoffrey K. Pullum and Rodney Huddleston (2002). _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language



_


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## Juhasz

David Smith 100 said:


> I've already agreed that most people will and do say "This is me" but "This is I" is technically speaking the correct way, it doesn't really matter if it has fallen out of usage or not.



And what of Ewie's comment about _thou_?  Do you consider everyone who uses "you" as the informal second person singular incorrect?  Do you think it would be incorrect to answer that question with "yea" or "nay" instead of "yes" or "no"?*  If "yes" is not incorrect, but "it is me" is incorrect, what's the difference between them?  Is it only that _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language _does not include any rules about "thou" or "yea"?


*Yes and no - Wikipedia


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## Loob

David Smith 100 said:


> I was wondering what people would think of someone who speaks very formal and uses quite old-fashioned grammar rules.


That someone would be thought ... odd.

You're a native English speaker: surely you agree?


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## JulianStuart

Juhasz said:


> And what of Ewie's comment about _thou_?  Do you consider everyone who uses "you" as the informal second person singular incorrect?  Do you think it would be incorrect to answer that question with "yea" or "nay" instead of "yes" or "no"?*  If "yes" is not incorrect, but "it is me" is incorrect, what's the difference between them?  Is it only that _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language _does not include any rules about "thou" or "yea"?
> 
> 
> *Yes and no - Wikipedia


David already sidestepped that in#13 above


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## Hermione Golightly

To get back to your OP#1:


> "This is me the summer after I graduated.
> This is me when I joined the Marines."



There is nothing _whatsoever the matter grammatically or otherwise _with these formulations, to any _rational _person's mind, assuming that they are captions to photographs, or responses to phone calls, and such and so-on.

< Off-topic comment removed.  Cagey, moderator >


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## SevenDays

David Smith 100 said:


> If you say so.
> 
> I've already explained. I was wondering what people would think of someone who speaks very formal and uses quite old-fashioned grammar rules.
> 
> 
> 
> I (pronoun):
> 
> When the pronoun is used as a subjective predicative complement, the nominative _I_ is sometimes encountered in (very) formal style:
> 
> 
> "It is I."
> But this is often seen as hypercorrect and may be unacceptable, as in:
> 
> 
> * "This one [photograph] is I as a baby.
> _Me_ is usually preferred as a subjective predicate, especially in informal style:
> 
> 
> "This is me as a baby."
> "It's me!"
> Source: Geoffrey K. Pullum and Rodney Huddleston (2002). _The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language
> 
> 
> _



CGEL is talking about _usage_, not _rules_. Nominative/subject pronouns (_I, you, he_, etc.) appear with finite verbs. In,

_It is me!
This is me as a baby_

the finite verb "is" already has its subject ("It," "This"), so there's no grammatical/syntactic requirements for nominative "I." The accusative/object form "me" fulfills the syntactic need in such contexts, and also in contexts where the verb is non-finite (_This is *me swimming* in Malibu_). So, there's the rule: if it's the subject of a finite verb, use _I, you, he, we_, etc. otherwise, go with _me, him, them, _etc.

The idea of "It is *I*," where the subject complement is in the nominative, comes from Latin, but English isn't Latin.  The formal usage "it is *I*" is just that; _formal usage_, not _grammar_.


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## Edinburgher

Packard said:


> So, “this is me…” is really, “This is a photograph of me.”


That doesn't work as a general explanation.  Suppose it's a family photo, featuring ten people, and he says: "That's me over there on the left, with a grammar book under my arm."


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## David Smith 100

Hermione Golightly said:


> I'm not going to embark on an "I'm better educated than you" challenge, but I will say that I am highly educated by any standard.
> I was never _taught _"English grammar rules" at school. Why
> would we be? If we hadn't been able to express ourselves 'grammatically and correctly' aged eleven, we would never have been admitted, or in my case,got a scholarship into a top grammar school, let alone a world top class university, some seven years later.
> My 'techical' understanding of "English grammar" was gained on post- graduate TEFL courses many years later.



But someone still had to teach you a certain standard and understanding of the English language otherwise you wouldn't have been able to become highly educated.



Hermione Golightly said:


> Could you please explain why you say
> ?



What should I have said "formally"? 

You also made a mistake further up, you said 'techical'. Not that I care about that really though but since you're highlighting my mistakes I might as well higlight yours too. 



Hermione Golightly said:


> To get back to your OP#1:
> 
> 
> There is nothing _whatsoever the matter grammatically or otherwise _with these formulations, to any _rational _person's mind, assuming that they are captions to photographs, or responses to phone calls, and such and so-on.
> Do you know the word 'troll'?



I agree with you that to most people's ears the word "me" would sound right and be used in the two sentences used as examples but I'm on about strictly speaking "I" should be used rather than "me".



SevenDays said:


> CGEL is talking about _usage_, not _rules_. Nominative/subject pronouns (_I, you, he_, etc.) appear with finite verbs. In,
> 
> _It is me!
> This is me as a baby_
> 
> the finite verb "is" already has its subject ("It," "This"), so there's no grammatical/syntactic requirements for nominative "I." The accusative/object form "me" fulfills the syntactic need in such contexts, and also in contexts where the verb is non-finite (_This is *me swimming* in Malibu_). So, there's the rule: if it's the subject of a finite verb, use _I, you, he, we_, etc. otherwise, go with _me, him, them, _etc.
> 
> The idea of "It is *I*," where the subject complement is in the nominative, comes from Latin, but English isn't Latin.  The formal usage "it is *I*" is just that; _formal usage_, not _grammar_.



Have a read of the Wikipedia article I (pronoun) - Wikipedia

"It is me" is more commonly used but technically speaking "It is I" is the correct wording.

"The traditional grammar rule states when a pronoun follows a linking verb, such as "is," the pronoun should be in the subject case. It’s also called the "nominative." That means it is correct to say, "It is I".

"It Is I" Versus "It Is Me"


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## Keith Bradford

David Smith 100 said:


> Grammar rules tell us the 'correct' way to speak...


No they don't - unless you're one of those strange people who want to speak the way your grandparents did.  And why do you?

To stick to the specific "its' me/I" issue, you'll see from the ngram cited in #10 by Julian Stuart (Google Ngram Viewer) that *It's me* took over from *It is I* in 1933.  That was 13 years before I was born, and in my childhood I was taught the older version.  I don't want to use it today.  You're over 20 years younger than me; why should you want to use it?


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## David Smith 100

Keith Bradford said:


> No they don't - unless you're one of those strange people who want to speak the way your grandparents did.  And why do you?
> 
> To stick to the specific "its' me/I" issue, you'll see from the ngram cited in #10 by Julian Stuart (Google Ngram Viewer) that *It's me* took over from *It is I* in 1933.  That was 13 years before I was born, and in my childhood I was taught the older version.  I don't want to use it today.  You're over 20 years younger than me; why should you want to use it?



Well obviously grammar tells us how to speak, the very basic definition of grammar is all about language. Without grammar, communication would be very difficult.

I think most people's grandparents did/do speak a lot better than the way a lot of people speak these days!

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's more preferable to say "It is me", I have never said anything to the contrary. I'm not saying that I want to use it, even the phrase "it is me" isn't exactly used every single day. I was just merely curious at what was technically speaking correct. 

There are a lot of examples in English where the technically speaking correct way to say something is largely ignored for the more favourable or informal way. 

The same as the subjective mood and other grammar rules are also ignored by a lot of people.


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## Loob

You've lost me, David. I have no idea what your question is.
I'll bow out of the thread.


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## VicNicSor

David Smith 100 said:


> I think most people's grandparents did/do speak a lot better than the way a lot of people speak these days!


I agree. For example, Jim Morrison might have been someone's grandparent now too:
_I'm gonna love you 
Till the stars fall from the sky *for you and I*._


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## SevenDays

David Smith 100 said:


> Have a read of the Wikipedia article I (pronoun) - Wikipedia
> 
> "It is me" is more commonly used but technically speaking "It is I" is the correct wording.
> 
> "The traditional grammar rule states when a pronoun follows a linking verb, such as "is," the pronoun should be in the subject case. It’s also called the "nominative." That means it is correct to say, "It is I".
> 
> "It Is I" Versus "It Is Me"



Well, yes; if you follow traditional grammar, I suppose you'll just have to go around saying "It is I," because that's _the rule_.
In modern English linguistics, this "rule" is nonsense, and for good reason: the verb "is" already has its assigned subject ("it"); there's no need for "I;" _*me *_will do just fine.


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## velisarius

VicNicSor said:


> I agree. For example, Jim Morrison might have been someone's grandparent now too:
> _I'm gonna love you
> Till the stars fall from the sky *for you and I*._



Yeah, the Doors were such a bad influence on the young. And now English boy band Union J's  has a  _Song for You and I...

I let you go, that's when I wrote this song for you and I 
_
They don't even have the excuse that "I" is there for the rhyme.


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## VicNicSor

velisarius said:


> Yeah, the Doors were such a bad influence on the young. And now English boy band Union J's  has a  _Song for You and I...
> 
> I let you go, that's when I wrote this song for you and I
> _
> They don't even have the excuse that "I" is there for the rhyme.


It's definitely the Doors' influence

And I hear it in the *air*
This song for you and *I*
(............)
But I won't forget the day you left and said good*bye*
I let you go, that's when I wrote this song for you and *I
*
The second _I _definitely rhymes with _goodbye_, but they say the first _I _in such a way so it rhyms with _air_


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## heypresto

TS Eliot famously got there way before The Doors. But only a nerd would say so.


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## Keith Bradford

David Smith 100 said:


> ...I think most people's grandparents did/do speak a lot _*better *_than the way a lot of people speak these days!
> ... I was just merely curious at what was technically speaking *correct*...


Here, you've put your finger on one of the major debates in linguistics - should grammar be descriptive or prescriptive - should it describe *how *people talk, or tell them how they *should *talk?

There are so many different ways of answering this.  At the one extreme "anything goes", at the other extreme "follow the traditional rules".

Let's look at language as a tool, and compare it with another rapidly-developing tool, the motor car.  Nobody, I think, would say that the "correct" way to build a car today would be to add a starting-handle and direction indicators like this:









.

But these details were as "correct" in 1930 as was the use of "it is I".  Today both are outdated.

Conversely, it is incorrect today to put a car on the road without brakes, and it is incorrect to write a statement without a full stop (period) at the end.  Those details haven't changed since 1930 and we still see the usefulness of them.

In the end, that's the point: if a feature of language is no longer useful to us, we'll sooner or later drop it.


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## JulianStuart

Keith Bradford said:


> Here, you've put your finger on one of the major debates in linguistics - should grammar be descriptive or prescriptive - should it describe *how *people talk, or tell them how they *should *talk?
> 
> There are so many different ways of answering this.  At the one extreme "anything goes", at the other extreme "follow the traditional rules".
> 
> Let's look at language as a tool, and compare it with another rapidly-developing tool, the motor car.  Nobody, I think, would say that the "correct" way to build a car today would be to add a starting-handle and direction indicators like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> But these details were as "correct" in 1930 as was the use of "it is I".  Today both are outdated.
> 
> Conversely, it is incorrect today to put a car on the road without brakes, and it is incorrect to write a statement without a full stop (period) at the end.  Those details haven't changed since 1930 and we still see the usefulness of them.
> 
> In the end, that's the point: if a feature of language is no longer useful to us, we'll sooner or later drop it.



I had an old Morris Minor in 1974 and it was definitely going out of use even then, piece by piece.  I’d never dream of driviing using it today.


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## David Smith 100

ewie said:


> *I notice that you're happy to use singular-plural _they_, as in _If someone said "It is I", I'd think *they were* mental_.  A hundred years ago you'd have been publicly lynched for doing that



No I wasn't. I was using it in the sense of 'people in general' or 'a person of unspecified gender', I was not using it in relation to the silly trend of so-called gender-neutral pronouns.


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## ewie

David Smith 100 said:


> No I wasn't. I was using it in the sense of 'people in general' or 'a person of unspecified gender', I was not using it in relation to the silly trend of so-called gender-neutral pronouns.


_Ahem_.  If you meant people in general, you should've said that:


> _If people said "It is I", I'd think *they were* mental_.


If you meant person of unspecified gender, you should've said that:


> _If someone said "It is I", I'd think *he or she was* mental_.


No matter which way you cut it, you were using a gender-neutral pronoun: _they_.


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## Cagey

The English Only forum focuses on questions about actual usage.  
The question of what usage ought to be and how standards of usage should be decided is outside the scope of this forum. 

This thread is closed. 

Cagey, 
moderator


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