# Samekh and Sin



## sarmadi

I am interested to know why were there 2 letters to produce the same sound in biblical hebrew, Samekh and Sin. Why is Israel written using Sin and not Samekh? Why and how did Sin disappear from modern hebrew?


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## Drink

sarmadi said:


> I am interested to know why were there 2 letters to produce the same sound in biblical hebrew, Samekh and Sin. Why is Israel written using Sin and not Samekh? Why and how did Sin disappear from modern hebrew?



Originally the letter Sin was pronounced different from Samekh (Sin was a probably a voiceless lateral fricative /ɬ/). What do you mean that Sin disappeared from Modern Hebrew? It is certainly still there.


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## sarmadi

I am a barely beginning to learn the alphabet, not much background, so excuse if my questions seem a bit ignorant. From all the reading I have been doing, I haven't seen an occurrence of sin. Can you give me an example of where sin would be used and where samekh would be used please.


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## Drink

sarmadi said:


> I am a barely beginning to learn the alphabet, not much background, so excuse if my questions seem a bit ignorant. From all the reading I have been doing, I haven't seen an occurrence of sin. Can you give me an example of where sin would be used and where samekh would be used please.



It all depends on the root of the word. There is no "rule". It is true that Sin is rarer than Samekh, but this was true in Biblical Hebrew as well.

Examples of words spelled with Sin (I grouped words of the same root):

יִשְׂרָאֵל = Israel

שָׂרָה = Sarah

נָשָׂא = to carry
נָשִׂיא = president
נָשׂוּי = married

שָׂר = minister

שָׂרַף = to burn
שְׂרֵפָה = fire

שָׂמַח = to rejoice, to be happy
שָׂמֵחַ = happy
שִׂמְחָה = happiness

שָׂם = to put

עֶשֶׂר = ten
עֶשְׂרִים = twenty

עָשָׂה = to do
מַעֲשֶׂה = deed, story


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## sarmadi

Thank you so much. Last question. Is there a way for me to know how Sin is pronounced and Samekh is pronounced? What english words would you use Sin for and what english words would you use Samekh for?


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## Drink

sarmadi said:


> Thank you so much. Last question. Is there a way for me to know how Sin is pronounced and Samekh is pronounced? What english words would you use Sin for and what english words would you use Samekh for?



In Modern Hebrew, Sin and Samekh are both always pronounced "s" (مثل "س" في العربية).

Since you are an Arabic speaker, a general rule that might help you is:
1. If an Arabic word has ش, then its Hebrew equivalent probably has a Sin (عشر = עשר).
2. If an Arabic word has س, then its Hebrew equivalent probably has a Samekh or a Shin (سنة = שנה, سفينة = ספינה).


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## sarmadi

Thank you so much.
I also noticed that arabic ث is rendered Shin in hebrew. Examples would be weight ثقل shekel in hebrew, proverb مثل meshel in hebrew. 3 ثلاث shlosh in hebrew. How do you say one third 1/3 in hebrew?


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## Drink

sarmadi said:


> Thank you so much.
> I also noticed that arabic ث is rendered Shin in hebrew. Examples would be weight ثقل shekel in hebrew, proverb مثل meshel in hebrew. 3 ثلاث shlosh in hebrew.



Yes, you are right. But just to correct you, it is "mashal" and "shalosh".



sarmadi said:


> How do you say one third 1/3 in hebrew?



שְׁלִישׁ (shlish)


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## sarmadi

Is Sin used at all for modern loan words or transliteration? or is Samekh used exclusively.


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## Drink

sarmadi said:


> Is Sin used at all for modern loan words or transliteration? or is Samekh used exclusively.



No, only Samekh is used for loanwords.


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## sarmadi

That's the reason I thought Sin disappeared. I appreciate the time you took to reply to me. shalom


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## amikama

sarmadi said:


> I am interested to know why were there 2 letters to produce the same sound in biblical hebrew, Samekh and Sin. Why is Israel written using Sin and not Samekh? Why and how did Sin disappear from modern hebrew?


Hebrew (and also Arabic and other Semitic languages) originally had three distinct sounds - shin, sin and samekh. Two of these sounds (sin and samekh) were later merged into one sound.

The history of these three proto-Semitic letters/sounds was discussed in this quite long EHL thread.


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## sarmadi

Wow, thank you so much. I was going to recreate that thread all over again, thanks for stopping me lol.


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## berndf

Arabic once had the same three sounds. But they merged differently: In Arabic Shin and Samekh merged to س and Sin became the modern ش. This explains the strange rules Drink gave you above:


Drink said:


> Since you are an Arabic speaker, a general rule that might help you is:
> 1. If an Arabic word has ش, then its Hebrew equivalent probably has a Sin (عشر = עשר).
> 2. If an Arabic word has س, then its Hebrew equivalent probably has a Samekh or a Shin (سنة = שנה, سفينة = ספינה).


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## Ali Smith

Here's what Wheeler McIntosh Thackston says in _Introduction to Syriac_:

The Syriac ܣ that is ס in Hebrew is س in Arabic...while the Syriac ܣ that is שׂ in Hebrew is ش in Arabic...All Syriac ܫ's are س in Arabic.

I've also attached a picture from Muraoka's _A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew_.


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## JAN SHAR

At what point did the two sounds become one? I guess I mean at what point do we see scribes confusing the two, which would prove that they had started sounding the same to them?


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