# Pink (and things men should not wear)



## e.ma

Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).

What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?

Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)


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## Etcetera

e.ma said:


> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist?


If it's 1st April, they'll only laugh and say that their boss has an excellent taste, I suppose.
But otherwise, it would seem very, very strange. And I don't think dress codes are really outdated and should be abandoned: all in all, they have been developing throughout decades, if not centuries, and certainly have sense. 
Imagine a group of businessmen dressed each to his taste on a business meeting. I'm afraid bright clothes would only distract the attention from what is being discussed.


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## ciganka

Etcetera said:


> If it's 1st April, they'll only laugh and say that their boss has an excellent taste, I suppose.
> But otherwise, it would seem very, very strange. And I don't think dress codes are really outdated and should be abandoned: all in all, they have been developing throughout decades, if not centuries, and certainly have sense.
> Imagine a group of businessmen dressed each to his taste on a business meeting. I'm afraid bright clothes would only distract the attention from what is being discussed.


 
I don't agree with that Etcetera. In India is not that strange to see business people in bright colors, which i see very positive. Black and dark colors doesn't necessarily mean serious and professional approach.


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## Etcetera

But India is a special case, isn't it? And there are such things as traditions and common taste in each country. What is appropriate in India, may not be appropriate here; and what is more or less appropriate in Russia (being late for a business meeting for some 5 minutes due to traffic jams, for example) would be frowned upon in Germany.


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## danielfranco

There's always the counterpoint counterculture that insists on being counter-something or other... just contrary, you know?
For example, there's a T-shirt with a slogan around these here parts that reads: Real Men Wear Pink... If They Want To.
Usually, if the wearer is a rather large, beefy and hairy guy, very few will object to that sentiment.
So, like Etc. said, it very much depends on the dreaded "tradition" when it comes to accounting for taste in such matters.
I think...


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## jonquiliser

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> 
> Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)


 
I wonder the same. I find it ridiculous more than anything. There's also the obsession with gender distinction/segregation involved; "gender dress codes". Just think what would be of the world if we couldn't see on the surface whether someone is a dick- or a vagina individual! 

In Finland at least, it is as rigid as you suggest: the male boss walking in dressed in his pink suit and French twist won't avoid reactions (ridicule, not being taken seriously, thought to have lost his mind, or myriad other reactions...). A female boss, well, she'll probably not get to be boss in the first place if she's too pink, and then, she also shouldn't be too much of a gender bender to get to that position...


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## Sepia

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> ...


 

I'd find it cool - I judge my bosses by the their qualifications as bosses and not by their looks.

In Germany however it would be unlikely. German businesspeople wear the most boring selection of dark blue suits only (just like the CDU/CSU politicians). If you are at a business meeting and one of the people sitting around the table happens to wear a black suit in stead of a dark blue one I bet it is the guy from the advertising agency who is there for a presentation. (Could be me. We are the men in black - lots of us even drive black cars).


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## e.ma

I'm glad to hear about Indian men's freedom to colours: it only proves Indian culture is sager, at least at this point.

Jonquiliser's completely got my point. If women have already make a revolution to get equal chances (whether it's been successful or not), shouldn't it at last be marked as "politically incorrect" to go around showing those gender-power signs?

I read very interesting articles on this issue by professor Beatriz Preciado, but I have no time to look for the reference now.

Sepia: nice to hear that, but up to now there is very few people who judge their bosses (or whoever) by their qualifications and not by their looks. I mean VERY VERY FEW!


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## ciganka

e.ma said:


> I'm glad to hear about Indian men's freedom to colours: it only proves Indian culture is sager, at least at this point.
> 
> Jonquiliser's completely got my point. If women have already make a revolution to get equal chances (whether it's been successful or not), shouldn't it at last be marked as &quot;politically incorrect&quot; to go around showing those gender-power signs?
> 
> I read very interesting articles on this issue by professor Beatriz Preciado, but I have no time to look for the reference now.
> 
> Sepia: nice to hear that, but up to now there is very few people who judge their bosses (or whoever) by their qualifications and not by their looks. I mean VERY VERY FEW!


 
I am not sure that this shows men's freedom in India, it is just a custom, Black and white color are not very popular in India. In my country, Slovenia, another tendency is coming up. Not to wear suit at all. When I was living and working there I could hardly see my bosses wearing suit and ties (which i don't mind at all!!), but yes, when they did it was in a dark color.


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## ernest_

There is a semi-famous economist, Xavier Sala-i-Martin, who is well known for wearing extravagant, colourful ties and jackets. The funny thing is you'd expect him to have revolutionary ideas, but no. Far from it, in fact, he's a firm adherent to the classic orthodox economic doctrine.


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## e.ma

Nice to hear about this Slovenian "step-to-opening"


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## nichec

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> 
> Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)


 
Well, I don't think men are the only ones suffering from this "code".

As a working female, I have to go to work with "nice" outfits as well, which means no jeans, no T-shirt........And you certainly won't see me walking into a meeting with mini skirts or slippers There are days I am so tired that I just want to wear whatever makes me feel comfortable, but it's simply out of the question if I want to be respected (and I think this is even more unfair to women because we are always afraid of being accused of showing off our bodies)

Nobody tells me that, but I just know it by heart. Actually, if one day I have to discuss this matter with anyone in the office, then I'm sure I'm in big trouble


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## karuna

ciganka said:


> I am not sure that this shows men's freedom in India, it is just a custom, Black and white color are not very popular in India. In my country, Slovenia, another tendency is coming up. Not to wear suit at all. When I was living and working there I could hardly see my bosses wearing suit and ties (which i don't mind at all!!), but yes, when they did it was in a dark color.



Actually white dress is the most common color for Indian men, especially in rural areas. It is interesting that while India is very codified with dress colors – safron and red for renunciates, white for family men etc. – comparing with western countries there is much less social pressure regarding the color and type of clothing you want to wear. A man wearing pink suit would be regarding as extravagant but not immodest. And after Holi festival many will continue to were their color stained clothes to show how much fun they had.


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## argentina84

Sepia said:


> I'd find it cool - I judge my bosses by the their qualifications as bosses and not by their looks.
> 
> In Germany however it would be unlikely. *German businesspeople wear the most boring selection of dark blue suits only* (just like the CDU/CSU politicians). If you are at a business meeting and one of the people sitting around the table happens to wear a black suit in stead of a dark blue one I bet it is the guy from the advertising agency who is there for a presentation. (Could be me. *We are the men in black* - lots of us even drive black cars).


 
Wow! I find it very interesting! Mainly because here in Argentina business men don't ussually wear blue suits...they prefer black ones... or gray ones. 
And if a man turns up at work with a pink suit...he will surely appear on TV!  The most they can wear in pink is a tie. In fact, I like pink ties very much, but many people are still very conservative here.


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## Hakro

Sepia said:


> I'd find it cool - I judge my bosses by the their qualifications as bosses and not by their looks.


It's easy to say so, Sepia, but how many people really are capable to judge their bosses by qualifications? Very few. And when you meet your boss for the first time, how do you know his qualifications? You don't. You judge him/her by his/her looks.

And E.ma, you asked "why". Well, we have to keep in mind that what we wear is also a message to other people. If the boss comes to the office dressed like a clown, he/she wants to be taken as a clown; if he/she is wearing jeans, it's also a message. Even wearing a dark suit but leaving the tie away may be a message, if this happens in an official meeting. 

Look at the teenagers anywhere in the world. They seem to wear anything they want, just to raise a revolution against the "dress code". But no, they don't dress freely, they have very strict codes of their own.


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## e.ma

Hakro said:


> And E.ma, you asked "why". Well, we have to keep in mind that what we wear is also a message to other people. If the boss comes to the office dressed like a clown, he/she wants to be taken as a clown; if he/she is wearing jeans, it's also a message. Even wearing a dark suit but leaving the tie away may be a message, if this happens in an official meeting.
> 
> Look at the teenagers anywhere in the world. They seem to wear anything they want, just to raise a revolution against the "dress code". But no, they don't dress freely, they have very strict codes of their own.



You're just right, but I'm wondering, shouldn't we update the meanings inside those messages a little bit?

More over: women cannot choose either, but I think they have a wider spectrum of "allowed" possibilities. For example, in Spain, in formal meetings, men can't wear sandals, and not even take jackets off (imagine the heat  now in summer!), while women are allowed to wear very light outfits (maybe not TOO pink, but quite cool).
Anyway, both males and females are being too much restricted, and nobody wins.

One more thing: I've noticed that "men's" colours tend to be the same that or very near to mourning colours...!!!


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## Qcumber

Banning some colours for either sex is so moronic ... and makes me feel like wearing pink in countries where people believe men cannot wear it.
Besides it is well-known it was those sour 19th-c Protestant Puritans who compelled men to wear grey and black. Fortunately Benetton (United Colours) and fashion designers have been changing all this for at least 30 years.


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## argentina84

I would never date a guy who dresses pink suits...but that is my personal taste...I really think that everyone can dress whatever they want...but they also have to allow people to think what they want about it. Freedom in every respect.


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## Brioche

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> 
> Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)



Every country, every culture has ideas about what is suitable clothing for work and other occasions.

If a boss wants to be taken seriously, she or he must dress in the expected manner for that industry. If you're the boss of a Haute Couture fashion house you'll dress one way. If you're the Maitre d'Hotel, in another way, and so on.

Would you, as a man, wear a pink suit, make up and wig, to your grandmother's funeral? Would you wear a swimming costume and flip-flop sandals to your cousin's white wedding?


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## Etcetera

Brioche said:


> Would you, as a man, wear a pink suit, make up and wig, to your grandmother's funeral? Would you wear a swimming costume and flip-flop sandals to your cousin's white wedding?


Exactly.
What should be taken into account is the actual situation and what is suitable for it and what isn't. 
Dressing in fancy suits may be judged if it's a masquerade, for example. But if it's a normal working day, what's the point of distracting the attention of employees who have many other, more important, things to do?


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## Athaulf

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> 
> Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)



Well, humans are beings that place a great deal of importance on communication. And while the primary means of human communication is the spoken language, the other highly important factors are the body language and the choice of dress. It's inherent to the human species that certain choices of attire will send specific messages to other people. 

Of course, which choices of dress will send which messages greatly depends on culture, just like the same message is conveyed by very different sounds in different languages. But such conventions always exist -- if they change, they can only change towards standards of a different kind. Humans will always read messages from each other's dress, just like they will always read messages from each other's spoken utterances.



Hakro said:


> Look at the teenagers anywhere in the world. They seem to wear anything they want, just to raise a revolution against the "dress code". But no, they don't dress freely, they have very strict codes of their own.



An excellent observation. Anyone who imagines that the extravagant dress of various "rebellious" groups of youth is a sign of free individualism is very mistaken. 



nichec said:


> Well, I don't think men are the only ones suffering from this "code".



On the other hand, in a too relaxed working environment, one can also suffer from a _lack_ of dress code. I work at an university department where there is no dress code whatsoever, and as a result, many people tend to dress (and behave) in such ways that sometimes I feel like I'd rather work under a strict dress code and rigid rules of etiquette than in such an environment. Don't get me wrong, I dress in pretty casual ways myself, but when things go over a certain limit, I do become uncomfortable.


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## karuna

Athaulf said:


> An excellent observation. Anyone who imagines that the extravagant dress of various "rebellious" groups of youth is a sign of free individualism is very mistaken.



Clothing often can be a way of showing one's belonging to a certain group. The problem is that in western countries these groups are often very intolerant to each other on the basis of clothing. I don't know about all western countries but in Latvia people are very judgmental about clothes and I don't like it at all. I think it is not the fashion, color or price of the clothing that speaks about person but whether the clothing is clean, decent and practical. Suits are good for few official ocasions but otherwise I consider this type of clothing rather obsolete.


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## suslik

well, I just love when men are wearing something pink...or something colourful. In Spain I saw so many men wearing colours...included pink, and for me it seemed just intresting and I liked it. If they shave their hands, that's already other story But I think that men should not be afraid of wearing something pink, because for me it doesn't make them gay, offcourse if they are not all over pink, just a shirt would be good. Pink shirt and light blue jeans are just the way it's best
Like they say: Only confident men can wear pink. 
And as I heard from one of my Indian friend - Indian men never wear pink, that's too gay for them But they do wear other colours but only on special occasions.


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## e.ma

Etcetera: if you do it everyday, a moment will arrive when your employees attention is not distracted by that.

Athaulf: wise observations, but, at the end, why does such a thing make you feel uncomfortable?

I agree with all of Karuna's remarks, specially about the obsolescence of it.

Suslik: very nice.


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## Athaulf

e.ma said:


> Athaulf: wise observations, but, at the end, why does such a thing make you feel uncomfortable?



Even the most casual people will start feeling uncomfortable when the behavior and/or dress of others falls below a certain standard; it's just that this threshold is different in different people. I'm sure that all of the people who voiced their opposition to various norms of dress in this thread would get uncomfortable if things went below _some_ level. In my specific case, there are also other factors involved. For example, I often get the feeling that the abysmal standards of dress in my profession (engineering) significantly lower its reputation and prestige in the eyes of the general population.


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## jonquiliser

Athaulf said:


> Even the most casual people will start feeling uncomfortable when the behavior and/or dress of others falls below a certain standard; it's just that this threshold is different in different people. I'm sure that all of the people who voiced their opposition to various norms of dress in this thread would get uncomfortable if things went below _some_ level. In my specific case, there are also other factors involved. For example, I often get the feeling that the abysmal standards of dress in my profession (engineering) significantly lower its reputation and prestige in the eyes of the general population.


 
Hmm, I'm not convinced we're talking about one scale valid for all, here. For me it's not a thing of 'tolerance', 'I can take it up to a point and then not'. I think, for one thing, dress codes can be very different and in a way, can't be reduced to one scale (this does not mean that the different dress code can't be equally rigid; they may well be). Casual or dressed up mean different things to different people and in different contexts. What's casual to you might look stiff, uptight, posh, snobbish or whatever to me. And so on.

But more importantly, not everyone _is_ actually that fixated with other people's clothing. I mean, genuinely. It's not that how other people dress is indifferent, but it really isn't a crucial point of judgement for everyone. I think it's not really my business how others dress. I might like some things less or more than others, and I probably think about what people might want to convey through their clothing. But I definitely won't take people more or less seriously because of how they dress, I'm not a fan of elitism; and whatever ideas their clothing conjure up in my mind are just preconceived ideas that really aren't worth all that much until I know what the person says for herself what she is about. 

e.ma., I'm not convinced it's better for women, though - ever read a 'women's magazine' with all the tips for how to survive in the jungle of clothing, make-up and whatnot? It provides valuable insight about the expectations there are on women


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## Athaulf

jonquiliser said:


> Hmm, I'm not convinced we're talking about one scale valid for all, here. For me it's not a thing of 'tolerance', 'I can take it up to a point and then not'. I think, for one thing, dress codes can be very different and in a way, can't be reduced to one scale (this does not mean that the different dress code can't be equally rigid; they may well be). Casual or dressed up mean different things to different people and in different contexts. What's casual to you might look stiff, uptight, posh, snobbish or whatever to me. And so on.



True, dress codes obviously can't be reduced to a single scale valid for all social settings and contexts. My comment was more specifically about how people dress at work. In professional settings, there is a more or less well-defined scale of dress codes, and going too far on the casual side will become annoying to anyone beyod a certain point. 

Otherwise, I agree that stuff that's labeled "casual" by the more fashion-conscious people can look pretty uptight. In those few fashion shows that I've seen, there have been examples of "casual" looks that require a ridiculous amount of careful grooming (and money!) to achieve. 



> But more importantly, not everyone _is_ actually that fixated with other people's clothing. I mean, genuinely. It's not that how other people dress is indifferent, but it really isn't a crucial point of judgement for everyone. I think it's not really my business how others dress. I might like some things less or more than others, and I probably think about what people might want to convey through their clothing. But I definitely won't take people more or less seriously because of how they dress, I'm not a fan of elitism; and whatever ideas their clothing conjure up in my mind are just preconceived ideas that really aren't worth all that much until I know what the person says for herself what she is about.


But the choice of dress can often be a means of sending off messages willfully and explicitly. At least in such cases, I don't see any point in pretending that the message doesn't exist. And even if this isn't the case, if a certain way of dressing is recognized as sending off a particular message in a given society, how is that different from the other culture-specific human means of communication such as speech or gestures? Imagine if someone were, for example, constantly showing people the middle finger while claiming that he wasn't insulting them at all, but merely rebelling against the social convention that this gesture is considered as an insult. Why is this different from someone dressing in a way that is known to send off a particular message but then expecting not to be judged accordingly?



> e.ma., I'm not convinced it's better for women, though - ever read a 'women's magazine' with all the tips for how to survive in the jungle of clothing, make-up and whatnot? It provides valuable insight about the expectations there are on women


Well, it's not like the expectations on men are much more relaxed (though the rules tend to be somewhat simpler). Ignoring them tends to have more or less equal consequences for both men and women.


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## jonquiliser

Athaulf said:


> But the choice of dress can often be a means of sending off messages willfully and explicitly. At least in such cases, I don't see any point in pretending that the message doesn't exist. And even if this isn't the case, if a certain way of dressing is recognized as sending off a particular message in a given society, how is that different from the other culture-specific human means of communication such as speech or gestures? Imagine if someone were, for example, constantly showing people the middle finger while claiming that he wasn't insulting them at all, but merely rebelling against the social convention that this gesture is considered as an insult. Why is this different from someone dressing in a way that is known to send off a particular message but then expecting not to be judged accordingly?


 
I both agree and disagree. The ways of interpreting some or other way of dressing will have certain ideas as their starting point. But I'd say dressing is in a way significantly different from for example speaking. Clothing has dimensions that speaking doesn't, and the other way around. To try and illustrate the point with an example;  no matter how much some sort of clothing is considered 'male' - sold as men's wear, a little label stuck to it announcing it's men's wear, generally considered men's wear - if a woman wants to use it because it's comfortable, I'm afraid she's not sending off the message other people may think she is. 

Obviously, there's the similarity with language that meaning isn't rigidly fixed, but in our use of language we so to speak 'play with meanings'. But the 'play' with clothing is a little different, and one way to 'play' on meanings can be by stop viewing clothing as so meaningful  



Athaulf said:


> Well, it's not like the expectations on men are much more relaxed (though the rules tend to be somewhat simpler). Ignoring them tends to have more or less equal consequences for both men and women.


 
Yes, perhaps; I was only referring to a post by e.ma. saying it's better for women.


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## e.ma

jonquiliser said:


> Yes, perhaps; I was only referring to a post by e.ma. saying it's better for women.


Got your point


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## mirx

Athaulf, I completely agree with your comments. And of course there is an acceptable scale for code-dressing depending on one's occupation.

For some reason whores wear the clothes they wear, just as nuns do with their cloths or politician with theirs. Usually no one tells them how to dress, but their environments dictate the trend to follow to be successful in such environment.

So you do have all the right to feel uncomfortable if someone goes to your causual environemet disguised as a prostitue, or a clown or a priest.

Getting back to the color pink, I have noticed in México that men in middle-upper and upper classes wear different shades of pinks with all naturality and no ones seems to mind. The situation is different in middle-lower and lower classes where men wearing pink will definitely be signaled out.

About the suits, in México business men wear dark colors, blue, dark brown, black, beige is fairly acceptable, gray, probably a dark green.

And I agree that women have much more liberty about the way they dresss. A woman dressed as a man (jeans and shirt) is still a woman, if any remark at all she would pass perhaps a casual one. A man dressed as a woman (skirts and blouse) is definitely a woman.


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## karuna

Professions are groups therefore strict dress codes are understandable. But people can belong to different groups simultaneously. For example, a Sikh follower would identify himself as a religious follower first and only then as a member of certain profession. If the job did not absolutely require a special dress he would dress in his traditional religious dress in his work to show that he doesn't not stop being Sikh at his job too. But Western Countries, comparing with India, are much more conformistic. Western people perceive distinct dress as a sign of agression and as a result people are afraid to express their religious, political, etc. affiliation via clothing.


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## Athaulf

karuna said:


> Professions are groups therefore strict dress codes are understandable. But people can belong to different groups simultaneously. For example, a Sikh follower would identify himself as a religious follower first and only then as a member of certain profession. If the job did not absolutely require a special dress he would dress in his traditional religious dress in his work to show that he doesn't not stop being Sikh at his job too. But Western Countries, comparing with India, are much more conformistic. Western people perceive distinct dress as a sign of agression and as a result people are afraid to express their religious, political, etc. affiliation via clothing.



I'll readily admit that my knowledge about the culture of India is very superficial, but regardless, I would be very surprised if there was really much difference between any two human societies when it comes to the level of conformity in dress and appearance expected from each individual. The fact that in the West, dress codes have traditionally been determined by profession much more than religion, whereas in other places it's the other way around, says nothing about the overall level of  expected conformity. (Of course, as societies progress towards a greater sensitivity to physical violence and cruelty, the penalties for non-conformity tend to become less harsh and cruel, at least physically.)


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## karuna

Historically in Europe most minority groups have always been discriminated, and even today there is a lot of hate and tension despite the democratic governments. In India the basis of the discrimination was mostly the caste system which surpassed skin color, ethnicity or religion. And there was always a multitude of these different religious groups, ethnicities, philosophies etc. living together. In this way it was ok to show one's beliefs by clothing, hair style, tatoos and other bodily markings even if it was done in the name of following the tradition.


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## alfmartinez

Hello
i think that the job must be serious and so the clothes are serious. But about the informal dress, pink has nothing bad, although you can have a bad day going out all pink because of the prejuices


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## Athaulf

karuna said:


> Historically in Europe most minority groups have always been discriminated, and even today there is a lot of hate and tension despite the democratic governments. In India the basis of the discrimination was mostly the caste system which surpassed skin color, ethnicity or religion. And there was always a multitude of these different religious groups, ethnicities, philosophies etc. living together.



My impression might be mistaken, but when I read about the occasional disturbances in India fueled by ethnic and religious hatred, it seems to me that in many places there, the level of hate and tension is comparable to that from the periods in European history much darker than the present one. Not to mention the events during the partition of India in 1947 and the subsequent secession of Bangladesh from Pakistan in 1971; I'm certainly not getting a picture of an especially tolerant society from those. Also, isn't the caste system itself based on criteria determined exactly by skin color, ethnicity, and religion?



> In this way it was ok to show one's beliefs by clothing, hair style, tatoos and other bodily markings even if it was done in the name of following the tradition.


But even if the tradition mandated that the members of different ethnic or religious groups sport a different style, I really don't see what such rules represent, if not enforced conformity and discrimination? And even in pre-modern Europe, one can find examples of this kind of thing -- for example, Jews were often legally required to display a particular recognizable clothing style (and the Orthodox ones choose to do it even nowadays).


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## karuna

Athaulf said:


> My impression might be mistaken, but when I read about the occasional disturbances in India fueled by ethnic and religious hatred, it seems to me that in many places there, the level of hate and tension is comparable to that from the periods in European history much darker than the present one. Not to mention the events during the partition of India in 1947 and the subsequent secession of Bangladesh from Pakistan in 1971; I'm certainly not getting a picture of an especially tolerant society from those.



There certainly are Hindu-Muslim conflicts in certain areas in India but to me they seem very much politically instigated, not as ethnic or religious conflicts. And most of Bangladesh population are Muslims. It became separated when Pakistan government started to slaughter their own citizens. 



> Also, isn't the caste system itself based on criteria determined exactly by skin color, ethnicity, and religion?



One's caste is determined solely by birth. All other factors are irrelevant. As the caste determines one's occupation or profession, it would make sense for Indians to develop clothing or other visible symbolism that would signify one's caste. But for unknown reasons this aspect is not very prominent.



> But even if the tradition mandated that the members of different ethnic or religious groups sport a different style, I really don't see what such rules represent, if not enforced conformity and discrimination? And even in pre-modern Europe, one can find examples of this kind of thing -- for example, Jews were often legally required to display a particular recognizable clothing style (and the Orthodox ones choose to do it even nowadays).



European ethnicity is something you can't really change but inherit it from your parents. And religion historically was also very much determined by your parents. But by large part in India one's religion was always anyone's free choice without any previous qualifications or requirements. People just followed whatever charismatic leader they liked and they established successions of gurus and disciples. The different type of attire was probably to assert one's religious affiliation, and to recognize Godbrothers in public. It was different from mandatory requirement.


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## panjabigator

e.ma said:


> Its already late in History and there are still a lot of things that "normal" men wouldn't wear. And it has nothing to do with personal taste (leaving aside the fact that education allows our choices very little freedom).
> 
> What would everybody think if your company's big boss (male) showed up in the morning dressed in a pink suit, his hair styled in a French twist? Would he be less of a male? Would he be less of a boss? But why?
> 
> Do we still need all that attrezzo? (I mean dark colours and neckties and all that staff)




There is a certain group of people that possess the fineness of being able to "pull things off."  They can wear any color and not make a bold statement.  If one of those happens to be my boss, then I would probably be unaware to the change in his appearance.  If not, then I'd seriously wonder why they dressed the way they did.  Not really because of the color but because it was "not their style."


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## PABLO DE SOTO

In Spain you can see many men wearing pink shirts or similar like polo shirts or T shirts, and I would even say that's a trendy colour for posh men.
Pastel colour ties are also popular for men who wear suits.
Right wing politicians tend to wear those ties more than left wing ones and that can be also said for their respective sympathizers or supporters.

But almost nobody wears a pink suit or pink trousers.
Another item where you can see lots of colours and patterns is the swimsuit costume.


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## alexacohen

Hakro said:


> It's easy to say so, Sepia, but how many people really are capable to judge their bosses by qualifications? Very few. And when you meet your boss for the first time, how do you know his qualifications? You don't. You judge him/her by his/her looks.


 
In my country of origin, (culturally speaking, of course), and taking into account the new Law recently passed over Parliament allowing marriages between people of the same sex, a boss entering an office dressed entirely in a pink suit would be classified instantly by his subordinates as belonging to the group of men who would take good advantage of the afore mentioned Marriage Law.
There would be, too, a high possibility that the pink dressed boss would acquire a nick. Possibly related to one of the characters of the late cartoon The Pink Panther Show.


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## Joca

In terms of colours, I have never seen men wearing pink trousers or suits or socks in this country, but it's fashionable or at least acceptable these days for a man to wear rose pink shirts. The colour is indeed very pale and from a distance you would mistake it for white. Well, I think I am going to buy one for myself the next time I go shopping clothes.


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## Outsider

Pink shirt.

Pink suit.

Doesn't look too bad to me...


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## Macunaíma

Joca said:


> In terms of colours, I have never seen men wearing pink trousers or suits or socks in this country


 
Jô Soares has a pair of pink socks that he usually wears with a white suit with black stripes, and, ocassionally, with a pink necktie to match. He once said during a show they are his favourite.


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## e.ma

You are right, I used it with it's Spanish meaning, but written as in Italian (in Spanish it's "atrezo" or even "atrezzo", and means everything needed to put up a theater or cinema scene).

But this should not surprise you, since your reading it as "tool" fits quite well my sentence's intention: call it "atrezo" or "tool", I was meaning whatever you provide in order to get an effect...


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## Athaulf

Outsider said:


> Pink shirt.
> 
> Pink suit.
> 
> Doesn't look too bad to me...



Well, don't forget that this TV series was made during the same years in which these guys were major sex-symbols, and were even trying to create a badass image of sorts.  It was a time of quite different standards for masculinity of dress; I wouldn't fancy going out with either of these choices of outfit nowadays.


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## elizabeth_b

Joca said:


> In terms of colours, I have never seen men wearing pink trousers or suits or socks in this country, but it's fashionable or at least acceptable these days for a man to wear rose pink shirts. The colour is indeed very pale and from a distance you would mistake it for white. Well, I think I am going to buy one for myself the next time I go shopping clothes.


 
The singer Ney Matogrosso said once that the first time he saw Caetano Veloso, Caetano was dressing a pink suit.  This took place in the late sixties, was very strange to see a man wearing pink clothes and it was a way to show he disagree with the system and the goverment ruling Brasil at that time.  
But now I believe that there's no more that kind or rules in our society.  In the late 80's pink, lilac, peach, colors were introduced to men wardrobe.  Maybe only in some traditional families that wouldn't be acceptable. 
Perhaps more than colors nowadays it would be  schocking to see men using skirts or something like that unless we would be visiting Scotland or any other countries in which this could be part of their traditional wardrobe.


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## Lusitania

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> In Spain you can see many men wearing pink shirts or similar like polo shirts or T shirts, and I would even say that's a trendy colour for posh men.
> Pastel colour ties are also popular for men who wear suits.
> Right wing politicians tend to wear those ties more than left wing ones and that can be also said for their respective sympathizers or supporters.
> 
> But almost nobody wears a pink suit or pink trousers.
> Another item where you can see lots of colours and patterns is the swimsuit costume.


 

The same in Portugal, it's quite trendy for men to wear pink if they are the posh type and some suits by night. Although on a daily basis, people don't go around dressed in pink suits. It's not trendy for men or women, other "discrete" colours are more seen.

Also it's very natural to see men in orange and pink shirts and t-shirts and swiming suits.


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## heidita

Brioche said:


> Every country, every culture has ideas about what is suitable clothing for work and other occasions.


 
Quite true, Brioche. Which reminds me of funerals. In India I understand _white_ is the colour to wear, which would be simply shocking in Germany. In Germany one imply MUST wear_ black_, while here in Spain, people just wear street clothes, any colour.

I agree, if at work, one must adapt to the customs.

Pink , curiously, has always been thought of as a feminine colour. My brother I remember would never put on pink shirts, for any occasion. He said he looked gay. So...


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## ColdomadeusX

As a casual sort of thing, most "out going, metrosexual, new age" guys like wearing pink in everyday life. By new age I don't mean that they're all flamboyantly gay without actually being into other guys, I just mean they're average blokes who care a little more about their appearance than most.
As for office attire, many men wear pink shirts to work- I happen to know quite a few school teachers and even some Principals and Deputies that wear extrememly bright pink shirts! I'm not so sure that bosses wear extremely bright pink shirts (like a pink that really stands out; not a pale pink) because they might seems a little less "boss-like";for wantof a better word.However, I'm pretty sure that unless you're part of a major organisation or company, it's fine to wear pale pink shirts.
I suppose it's just one of those growing trends though.


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## Haylette

Call me old-fashioned, but it makes my eyes bleed to see a man wearing flip-flops.


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## faranji

There's something far worse than a pink suit, and much more common: a burgundy suit.

Lord Curzon famously said _A gentlemen never wears brown in London_. I add ..._nor burgundy in the whole solar system_.




Haylette said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but it makes my eyes bleed to see a man wearing flip-flops.


 
LOL... Ditto for shin-length trousers!!


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## heidita

Haylette said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but it makes my eyes bleed to see a man wearing flip-flops.


I can see this flip-flop business has become universal: men here in Spain wear them everywhere. I have seen them in the theatre with this. Most probably they wear them to work. 

If my_ jewel_ starts to wear them I will suit for divorce!


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## faranji

heidita said:


> I can see this flip-flop business has become universal: men here in Spain wear them everywhere. I have seen them in the theatre with this. Most probably they wear them to work.
> 
> If my_ jewel_ starts to wear them I will suit for divorce!


 
Come on, Heidi, I'm sure you two can reach some agreement. (¿Or maybe not?)


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## heidita

faranji said:


> Come on, Heidi, I'm sure you two can reach some agreement. (¿Or maybe not?)


 
Flip-flops with socks!!!!! That is sooooo unbecoming. I mean, terrible thought. 

I wonder: do people wear these terrible flip-flops everywhere in your countries too? Except on the beach, of course. Would you find it acceptable if you invite somebody to dinner and he appears with these terrbile things and socks!!!???? (Well, really, I wouldn't mind much, but I would think he is crazy)


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## elizabeth_b

Well were I live is very hot.  Sometimes we have 40C so flip flops are used by everybody very often although we're not near the beach.  Now... wearing them with socks... It's not even logical!  Why should I wear socks with flip flops?  It's weird...


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## jonquiliser

I don't usually pay much attention to what people wear, but today I made an extra effort to observe the situation. I spotted probably l_ess than ten_ men wearing pink shirts, _no_ men wearing other  pieces of clothes of the colour pink, and exactly _one _man wearing a skirt. 

For some perspective I should add that: the overall number of adult people wearing pink outfits wasn't too high; there was an expected abundance of pink in female teenagers; there were loads of people out on the streets; plenty of women wore skirts; London probably can't be taken as representative of anything but London. 

Conclusion: it doesn't seem to be too fashionable for men to wear pink. But then again, the core issue here isn't really just fashion, is it? It goes quite far beyond what then trend is at the moment.


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## Outsider

Does it? Why do you think so?


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## heidita

You saw ONE man wearing a skirt?

I haven't seen a man wearing a skirt in 30 years living in Spain. Ever!

I think that is out of the question here. And in Germany I would be very surprised. Of course, it is very cold there.


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## jonquiliser

Outsider said:


> Does it? Why do you think so?


 
Does what? You mean why I said it doesn't seem to be fashionable? Well, if so, I guess because if it's fasionable, I'd expect you see it  Though as should be obvious, I wasn't really trying to claim I've done fantastic research, eh


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## jonquiliser

heidita said:


> You saw ONE man wearing a skirt?
> 
> I haven't seen a man wearing a skirt in 30 years living in Spain. Ever!
> 
> I think that is out of the question here. And in Germany I would be very surprised. Of course, it is very cold there.


 
Yup, one man in skirt. I'm amazed there aren't more, skirts can be quite comfy in summer. A couple of male friends have realised that, though, but I've not seen too many other men wear skirts. Though a few here and there.


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## Outsider

I take it you're not referring to a kilt...



jonquiliser said:


> Does what? You mean why I said it doesn't seem to be fashionable? Well, if so, I guess because if it's fasionable, I'd expect you see it  Though as should be obvious, I wasn't really trying to claim I've done fantastic research, eh


Sorry. I meant to ask: is the core issue here not really a matter of fashion? Does it truly go "quite far beyond what then trend is at the moment"?


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## oshin

When someone talks about the pink color the very first thought what he conjure up is about the kids or women. Because the pink reflects the softness and kids and women are perfect snonymous to it . while on the other hand a man looks perfect or gentlemen specially the BOSS on formal attire which generally dont include pink.
when someone wears pink we make fun of him.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator note:  A word from the cultural guidelines:



> When responding to a Cultural Discussions thread:
> 
> - read the rest of the replies first;
> - remember this is a discussion, not a succession of personal statements



Please remember that this is a forum for cultural perspectives, not personal opinions.  Thank you for your cooperation.


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