# All dialects: Mutual intelligibility



## omar al-mukhtar

Hello

To the native speakers of arabic, which dialects/accents do you find difficult to understand? I know that many arabs find western North Africa hard to understand (i.e. Morroco, Algeria). But what about Iraqi, Libyan, Khaleejee?

I am Libyan and have spoken to many people from the levant and al-Khaleej and they say they can understand as far as Libya then Algeria and Morroco are troublesome. I don't know where Tunis fits in there.


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## elroy

I am Palestinian, and I can understand Levantine (obviously), Egyptian, Sudanese, Iraqi, Saudi, and Gulf Arabic.

I have trouble with Tunisian, Algerian, and Moroccan.

I don't think I've ever heard Libyan.


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## Anatoli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arabic


> Libyan Arabic is a collective term for the closely related spoken varieties of Arabic as spoken in Libya. It can be divided into two major dialect areas; the eastern, centred on Benghazi and the western, centred on Tripoli. The eastern variety is very similar to varieties of Arabic spoken in the west of Egypt.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arabic#Intelligibilty_to_Non-Libyan_Arabs


> Libyan Arabic is highly intelligible to Tunisians and to a good extent to eastern Algerians. However for eastern Arabs, including Egyptians, it can be moderately difficult to understand and requires some adaptation on their part for a seamless comprehension.


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## MarcB

omar al-mukhtar said:


> To the native speakers of arabic, which dialects/accents do you find difficult to understand? I know that many(Eastern) arabs find western North Africa hard to understand (i.e. Morroco, Algeria). But what about Iraqi, Libyan, Khaleejee?
> 
> I am Libyan and have spoken to many people from the levant and al-Khaleej and they say they can understand as far as Libya then Algeria and Morroco are troublesome. I don't know where Tunis fits in there.


 You chose the name of Libya’s hero!

Arabic like many languages has a continuum. Adjacent countries often speak the same language or have no trouble understanding each other. The two extremes Morocco on one end and Iraq, Bahrain on the other have the hardest time understanding each other. Urban shami and urban Egyptian have a lot in common except shami pronounces ta marbuta as “eh” most Africa ,most of the Gulf and Egypt pronounce it as “ah”. Northern Egyptians and Adani from Yemen pronounce jiim as giim.Urban shami and Egypt pronounce qaf as hamza.Rural and badu in those countries say g or q. All of Africa except urban Egypt say g or q. At opposite ends of Africa Mauritania and Sudan do not use sh at the end of a verb for negation Most Syrians and Gulf do not either.
Most North Africans from Libya west swallow the first vowel in a word.
Letters with a th sound exist in parts of Tunisia,Iraq and some Eastern Gulf dialect. They are different sounds in the rest of Africa and shami.
Shami and Egyptian (including) Saiidi and Sudan are mutually intelligible with minor differences, rural and Bedouin are not the same but are understood. Khalleji depends on the dialect whether it can be understood by the others.kaf is often chaf. Moroccan and Algeria have some overlap and can usually understand each other. As do Tunisians and Libyans. Since in 2007 many people have been exposed to other dialects and accents and have studied MSA many people can at least communicate with people of different accents if they speak slowly and deliberately.


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## Anatoli

> ...Since in 2007 many people have been exposed to other dialects and accents and have studied MSA...


What has happened this year, MarcB?


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## MarcB

Anatoli said:


> What has happened this year, MarcB?


Perhaps I was unclear. I mean the current situation vs. the past when people had less exposure.


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## Sefora112

I am a Marrocan and I understand realy good the accent and dialect of Algeria. However the dialects of Middle-East sounds like the literal arab, and I hardly understand it.

Note that in my dialect we use the sound /g/ which doesn't exist in the arab language ! (it's amazing no !!)
To pronounce /qol/ we say /gol/ (which means "say")

salam wa'likoum


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

omar al-mukhtar said:


> To the native speakers of arabic, which dialects/accents do you find difficult to understand? I know that many arabs find western North Africa hard to understand (i.e. Morroco, Algeria). But what about Iraqi, Libyan, Khaleejee?
> 
> I am Libyan and have spoken to many people from the levant and al-Khaleej and they say they can understand as far as Libya then Algeria and Morroco are troublesome. I don't know where Tunis fits in there.


About tunisian,

It sounds more eastern than western if you only look at the "accent",the intonation,the rythm.
To my hears Lybian and Tunisian sound very similar,but all Lybians seem to speak a rural bedouin dialect while in Tunisia urban and rural are easily distinguishable.
Moroccan and Algerian differ(again mostly by intonation,accent..etc) from all other dialects because they are spoken with a berber accent.
For example a Chelhi Berber and an "Arab" from Southern Morocco have a very similar accent.same thing with other regions in the 2 countries.


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## Abu Rashid

as-salaamu alaykum sefora,



> Note that in my dialect we use the sound /g/ which doesn't exist in the arab language ! (it's amazing no !!)
> To pronounce /qol/ we say /gol/ (which means "say")


Actually millions of Arabs use the same sound. Most of Iraq, and rural areas of Sham, Egypt & most of Saudi Arabia use this sound in replacement of Qaf (ق).


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## linguist786

It's funny this thread was made - I was going to make it myself in a poster I'm making for a linguistics module.

I need to find out which dialects are mutually comprehensible with other Arabic dialects. So using information on this thread, I'm going to sum up what people have said. I do need to fill in the gaps though (of which there are a lot!) I want to know which ones are mutually intelligible to _most_ people of that country - not if somebody's _learnt_ a certain dialect. Help would be appreciated 

*(Dialect* - mutually intelligible with...)

*Moroccan, **Algerian, **Tunisian & **Libyan -* all mutually intelligible
*Egyptian* - Sudanese

*Sudanese* - Egyptian

*Palestinian* - (all Levantine dialects), Sudanese, Iraqi, Saudi, and Gulf Arabic.
*Syria -* (all Levantine dialects)
*Iraqi -* Kuwait

*Yemeni - Saudi* = mutually comprehensible along with other Gulf Arab countries (UAE, Qatar, Bahrayn, Aman)

Please correct some of my guesswork  I understand the Egyptian dialect is understood in a lot of countries because of influence from the media - are there any countries which it is _not_ understood?


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## omar al-mukhtar

hello everyone

I respectfully disagree that Libya's dialect is represented as mutually intelligible only among the Maghreb since Libyans speak a bedouin dialect similar to other parts of the arab world. The differences between Libyan arabic and others being a few Italian words which are quickly fading out and the Libyan accent. I know many arabs from the khaleej and they understand Libyans fine. I guess what I am trying to say is that Libyan arabic is closer to the eastern arabic world than Algeria or Morrocco since these dialects are largely influenced by the French colonization. But don't get me wrong there are similarities between Libyan, Tunisian, Algerian and Morroccan in terms of maghrebi arabic (i.e. using n as a verb prefix, etc.).

I remember this one time when a Morrocan came and started talking with some Libyans. I am not really familiar with the Morrocan dialect but I could clearly distinguish the two and his speech could not be clearly understood by the Libyans. I think people add Libya to that group since Libya is Maghrebi.


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## Zaeem

Hi,
From what I know, I can say that all Arabic dialects are mutually intelligible except Moroccan & (I have no experience with Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian and Mauritania dialects, so I don’t know about their dialects)

so, you can group them (mutually intelligible) from what I know in this way:

Group1:
*Moroccan*

Group2:
The rest of the Arabic dialects.

Group3 (ones that I have no experience with):
*Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisian* and* Libya*

If you know about (*Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisian *and* Libya*) dialects, please put them in the proper group.

thanks


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## linguist786

omar al mukhtar said:
			
		

> hello everyone
> 
> I respectfully disagree that Libya's dialect is represented as mutually intelligible only among the Maghreb since Libyans speak a bedouin dialect similar to other parts of the arab world. The differences between Libyan arabic and others being a few Italian words which are quickly fading out and the Libyan accent. I know many arabs from the khaleej and they understand Libyans fine. I guess what I am trying to say is that Libyan arabic is closer to the eastern arabic world than Algeria or Morrocco since these dialects are largely influenced by the French colonization. But don't get me wrong there are similarities between Libyan, Tunisian, Algerian and Morroccan in terms of maghrebi arabic (i.e. using n as a verb prefix, etc.).
> 
> I remember this one time when a Morrocan came and started talking with some Libyans. I am not really familiar with the Morrocan dialect but I could clearly distinguish the two and his speech could not be clearly understood by the Libyans. I think people add Libya to that group since Libya is Maghrebi


So what you're saying is, Libyan Arabic is not mutually intelligible with the other Maghrebi dialects? (Moroccan/Tunisian/Algerian)
Who would understand Libyan Arabic? (Speakers of which other dialects)


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## omar al-mukhtar

Of course not, I am not trying to say that. It is true that Libyan arabic is highly intelligible with Morrocan, Algerian and Tunisian arabic. I am trying to say that Libyan arabic is not your typical Maghrebi Arabic. By this I mean most eastern arabs have a hard time understanding most Maghrebi dialects (i.e. Morrocan/Algerian) but Libyan arabic is different than this. Of course if two Libyans talk to each other in their specific dialect (i.e. Benghazi), others may not fully comprehend the conversation and thus may not be highly intelligible to them. Whereas if a Libyan speaks to an Iraqi or a Saudi, their level of understanding will be quite high if not perfect comprehension but this is usually not the case with an Algerian or a Morrocan.


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## linguist786

So would it be safe to say that (most) speakers of Levantine Arabic would understand Libyan Arabic?


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## MarcB

Linguist I teaked it a bit.

*1.Moroccan, **Algerian,  Mostly depends on region   *


* 2.Tunisian & Libyan -*  mutually intelligible southern Tunisian and norther Libya are almost the same.

*3. Egyptian* - Southern Egypt (Saiidi) and Sudanese

*3.a Sudanese* - Egyptian with limited effort Levantine

*3.b*  (all Levantine dialects), (PalestineSyria, Lebanon,Jordan)

*4.a Iraqi -* Kuwait,Bahrain

*5. Yemeni - Saudi* = mutually comprehensible along with other Gulf Arab countries (UAE, Qatar, Oman)

The same numbers are considered mutually intelligible.
3-5 can communicate with limited  trouble.1 and 2 can communicate with limited  trouble
Libya overlaps with Sudan and rural Egypt which is different from Urban Egypt.Egypt is the most widely recognized due to media. These are approximations. Abiliy to understand increases with exposure and if peope speak slowly.


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## WadiH

Ok I'm going to put my two cents here
My native dialect is Najdi, and here's how I group different dialects according to intelligibility, from highest to lowest

(1) Hejazi, Gulf, Bahrani (mainly spoken by Shi'as of the Gulf), Junoobi (dialect of southern Saudi Arabia), Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Sudanese, Hadhrami ("south" Yemen) - I have no problem conversing even with older speakers of these dialects, and I oftentimes switch to their dialects unintentionally.

(2) Beduin dialects in general (although that's probably due to the simplification that Najdi Arabic has undergone over the past few decades). Libyan to me sounds more like a beduin dialect than a Maghrebi one.

(3) Iraqi: it's easy to understand educated Iraqis on TV who speak a simplified form of their dialect, but when Iraqis decide to speak in their *real* Iraqi dialect, it becomes much harder.

(4) Contrary to what many seem to believe, Yemeni is not mutually intelligible with most Saudi dialects. I've always had a hard time communicating with Yemenis, as they seem to have a completely different vocabulary from most other Arab dialects (and they talk super-fast too).

(5) Tunisian: like most North Africans, Tunisians use a much simpler form of their dialect when speaking to "Mashariqah" like me, so I have no trouble conversing with a minimally educated Tunisian. However, when two Tunisians converse with each other I need a few seconds to process each utterance.

(6) Moroccan sounds like a totally different language to me (even though I would understand it easily if it were transcribed). Algerian should be easier in theory, but in fact it's just as difficult for me to understand if not worse, probably due to the heavy French influence that complicate the matter even further than it already is.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

> So what you're saying is, Libyan Arabic is not mutually intelligible with the other Maghrebi dialects? (Moroccan/Tunisian/Algerian)


Well there is no real "Maghrebi Arabic".

In general in North Africa,people would understand dialects from from regions that are close to theirs.
for example Eastern Moroccan with Western Algerian,Eastern Algerian with Tunisian,Southern Tunisan with Lybian...etc



> Linguist I teaked it a bit.
> 
> *1.Moroccan, **Algerian,  Mostly depends on region   *
> 
> 
> * 2.Tunisian & Libyan -*  mutually intelligible southern Tunisian and norther Libya are almost the same.


You are quite right,
We generally separate Western Maghrebi(Moroccan,Algerian) from Eastern Maghrebi(Tunisian,Lybian)
Of course all of maghrebi dialects have similarities,but there are much more differences between for example the casablanca dialect and the tunis dialect than between beyrut and amman.



> Moroccan sounds like a totally different language to me (even though I would understand it easily if it were transcribed). Algerian should be easier in theory, but in fact it's just as difficult for me to understand if not worse, probably due to the heavy French influence that complicate the matter even further than it already is.


Exactly,it is more a matter of accent and rythm,but when you read it,it's still Arabic.

For algerian,yes I know what you mean!
Many Algerians like to conjugate french verbs with the arabic system!For example "nerva/ynervi" from French "énerver".
They also like to switch from Arabic to French in the same sentence.


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## linguist786

This is much more complicated than I first thought! Very interesting though.


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## omar al-mukhtar

Wadi Hanifa said:


> (2) Beduin dialects in general (although that's probably due to the simplification that Najdi Arabic has undergone over the past few decades). Libyan to me sounds more like a beduin dialect than a Maghrebi one.
> 
> (6) Moroccan sounds like a totally different language to me (even though I would understand it easily if it were transcribed). Algerian should be easier in theory, but in fact it's just as difficult for me to understand if not worse, probably due to the heavy French influence that complicate the matter even further than it already is.



Exactly what I was trying to say. Arabic in Libya has is a Bedouin dialect which has outlasted colonialization from the Italians and does not have the French influence. That is primarily why it is not a typical Maghrebi dialect but rather a Bedouin one.


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## WadiH

I think it's more to do with Berber influence, which becomes stronger as you move westwards, whereas the Libyans are more heavily influenced by the Arabian beduin tribes that migrated to the area over the centuries. That's why Libyans pronounce the 'qaf' as 'ga' (like they do in the Arabian Peninsula) while Moroccans pronounce it as 'qaf' (if I'm not mistaken).


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## Nikola

From Tunisia to Morocco some say qaf and some gaf.
Tariq would you look here and see if you understand
7e. http://geocities.com/TheTropics/Caba....html#Heading1
(Mauritanian Arabic, with French explanations)
I have visited several Arabic countries and agree neighboring countries usualy understand each other at normal speed. People are often able to communicate with other dialects if they speak slowly.


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## WadiH

Arabic Wikipedia has an interesting article on Libyan Arabic under the title لهجة ليبية, but I'm not allowed to post any URL's here. It basically divides Arabic in Libya into a "Maghrebi" variety in the west, and a Bedouin variety in the south and east.


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## omar al-mukhtar

Actually if I may add something, a small Berber community in the west (very close to Tunis), speak a Maghrebi-type dialect but the rest of the Libyans speak a Bedouin dialect.  This is because as mentioned before, Libya is influenced by the Bedouins whereas countries westward, Berber influence is strong.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

> I think it's more to do with Berber influence, which becomes stronger as you move westwards, whereas the Libyans are more heavily influenced by the Arabian beduin tribes that migrated to the area over the centuries. That's why Libyans pronounce the 'qaf' as 'ga' (like they do in the Arabian Peninsula) while Moroccans pronounce it as 'qaf' (if I'm not mistaken)



Well,
Berber influence is important but only if you look at syntax and accent.Berber words are not that much.Let's say 90-95% of the vocabulary is Arabic,then the rest is mostly French,Spanish and Italian.Don't get it wrong when Algerians use loads of French words,it's just a style,a type of speech,but the majority of the french words they use have an equivalent in Algerian Arabic.
Moroccans pronounce both Qaf and Gaf.In the North(tangiers,tetuan) Qaf is exclusive,in the south Gaf is more used than Qaf,we call these speakers "3ruubi",and in most of the regions it's 50/50 depending on the speaker.80% of moroccans would say "gul li" but you will never hear "gahwa" but alway "qahwa",it depends on the words.


> Tariq would you look here and see if you understand



Not really.
Well I can understand it but not more than  Lybian or Syrian.
As you said if they speak slowly it won't be a matter,however this dialect is quite far from northern Maghrebi


omar al-mukhtar said:


> Actually if I may add something, a small Berber community in the west (very close to Tunis), speak a Maghrebi-type dialect but the rest of the Libyans speak a Bedouin dialect.  This is because as mentioned before, Libya is influenced by the Bedouins whereas countries westward, Berber influence is strong.


Well Berber influence on Tunisian is close to 0.
It's mostly Moroccan and Algerian that are influenced by Berber


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## Spectre scolaire

Most of what I glean from the present debate – most of it, not all! - seems to be of a very impressionistic nature. An example: After a lot of talk about “Libyan Arabic”, it is only in contribution #23 that we get to know the following fact:



			
				Wadi Hanifa said:
			
		

> It [an article in Wikipedia] basically divides Arabic in Libya into a "Maghrebi" variety in the west, and a Bedouin variety in the south and east.


I am surprised. I thought this was common knowledge.

Do I have any reason to be surprised or is it a sheer fact that nobody has written anything _comprehensive and unprejudiced_ about the question of mutual intelligibility in the Arab world? I would be searching for something like a *“Linguistic Atlas of the Arabic Language”*, an atlas based on relevant parameters and isoglosses. _It is only from such a work that a functional discussion about Arabic interintelligibility could take place._ Or *is this wishful thinking?*

I have browsed through numerous articles containing material relevant to this question, but the comparisons made and the isoglosses established always fall short of a more general approach. Sometimes I wonder if such an approach is ultimately undesirable because it would focus on _diversity_ rather than _unity_. And that is not “good Latin” in the Arab world.


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## WadiH

A comprehensive study on mutual intelligibility has not been undertaken mainly due to the fact that the question is far too complex.  Spoken Arabic runs as a spectrum not only geographically but also across social and economic classes, not to mention education levels.  Another important factor is age.  Arabic has been - and continues to be - in constant flux.  Dialects are merging, undergoing simplification or becoming more complex, and many dialects are unfortunately disappearing.  It's not uncommon to find communication easier between two people from different countries than between a teenager and his grandfather.


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## Nikola

*Spectre scolaire* ,
Also many people think of colloquial as somehow inferior or slang. Colloquial although the native form of Arabic is not well studied.


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## omar al-mukhtar

Spectre scolaire said:


> Most of what I glean from the present debate – most of it, not all! - seems to be of a very impressionistic nature. An example: After a lot of talk about “Libyan Arabic”, it is only in contribution #23 that we get to know the following fact:
> 
> 
> 
> Wadi Hanifa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It [an article in Wikipedia] basically divides Arabic in Libya into a "Maghrebi" variety in the west, and a Bedouin variety in the south and east.
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised. I thought this was common knowledge.
Click to expand...

 
Actually it is not that simple or should I say true. The accent in the west is somewhat different from that of the east but the dialects do not reflect this difference.


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## Golden-Rose

[Moderator note: Thread merged with the previous one about the same topic. Cherine]

When you speak with someone who speaks a different dialect, do you use MSA? Or do you have a conversation with each person speaking a different dialect? Or does one of you try to use the other person's dialect?


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## Stephen Schmidt

Hello Rose,
For me, I tend to speak with my own dialect if I happen to speak with a person from any of the Gulf States (where I come from), I tend to do so with a person from the Levant area and also Egyptians--though I--sometimes--try to imitate their dialect when they don't understand my language. But in case the addressee was from any of Maghreb States I certainly start to speak in MSA because I can't understand a word.


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## Mahaodeh

We generally each use our respective dialects. Most of the cases are very easily mutually intelligible. When not, we tend to just avoid the use of very local words and replace them with more common words or MSA borrowings. For those in the eastern parts of the Arab world, the borrowings are generally not a lot, just specific words.

The only two exceptions are Algerians and Moroccans. I met some in the UAE and they tend to use an unidentifiable dialect, maybe something made up because it included borrowings from many dialects including their own and MSA, but they seemed to understand our dialects without trouble.


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## Hemza

My best friend is Egyptian (native Arabic speaker) while I'm from Moroccan and to a lesser extent, Mauritanian and Hijazi origin (native French speaker, learnt Arabic with my parents). First time we met and began to speak Arabic, I couldn't understand him neither he could understand me (I speak a mix of bedouin/urban dialects of Morocco). I wasn't used to Egyptian accent and typical expressions (special mention to البتاع دا  ). After sometimes, I got used to his speech and now, I understand Egyptian with ease (not like a native Egyptian though) and he understands me although when I use words I know he doesn't know them, I explain him their origin (let's say 90% of them being from Arabic origin, the rest from Persian, some Berber, some Turkish, but not used in Egypt or at least, not by him) although he doesn't always believe me about the origin of the word (روشن/بالزاف/شرجم for example, the three being from Persian origin but for my friend, those words come from Mars ) and I try to make my pronunciation more understandable. He doesn't always understand everything and sometimes I have to repeat myself but it is much better than the first time we spoke Arabic. Sometimes, we also end up into very funny/awkward situations because a word bear different meaning acording to the dialect. Also, we may influence each other (unvoluntarily) like when he says something and I repeat the same word but in his way and vice versa. Once, I said شنو تبغي؟ and he replied ما نبغي or when he told me: مش عارف and I reply: كيف مش عارف؟.

I don't speak well Hijazi and I'm not used to use it and as it is a bedouin-based dialect too, bedouin Moroccan or bedouin Hijazi, both would sound Japanese to my friend's Egyptian ears so I went with bedouin Moroccan.

It is not really a choice, I like practicing Standard Arabic but I'm not that good at it. I understand it pretty well (if I watch a documentary/debate, I may get 95% of what it is said) but speaking it is another matter. As for the vocabulary, one may say I use Standard Arabic words yet I don't really make a clear distinction between dialects and Standard Arabic, they're not (in my opinion) two different languages but two different levels of speech of the same language.

As there are some Arabic speakers in my university (most of them being Algerians/Egyptians), I noticed Egyptians/Lebanese/Syrians/Palestinians tend to keep their dialect (expecting EVERYONE fully understand them) while Maghrebis/Iraqis tend to switch to either, other dialects, or try to avoid using typical expressions from their dialects (Iraqis for example often switch or include Syrian features when speaking with non Iraqis or Maghrebis switch/include Egyptian features).



Mahaodeh said:


> The only two exceptions are Algerians and Moroccans.



Unless it is your point, this is very subjective and up to each one experience and exposure. I don't understand why Tunisians/Libyans would not be part of this "exception" but Algerians would be. What would make one more easier to understand compared to the other? The accent? As for the lexicon, Algerian is not very different from Libyan/Tunisian (unless you mean people who speak a mix made of their dialect and French, this is another case).


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## Mahaodeh

Hemza said:


> this is very subjective and up to each one experience and exposure.


I'm sorry if I offended you. Yes, it is subjective and based on my experiences in the UAE. Algerians and Moroccans were a minority among Arabs there, that's why very few understood their dialects so they spoke a hybrid dialect that others could understand. They probably understood the people there without trouble because they are used to their dialects.


Hemza said:


> I don't understand why Tunisians/Libyans would not be part of this "exception" but Algerians would be


Frankly, I don't recall meeting a Tunisian. The single Libyan that I met (one of my students) spoke mostly her own dialect but obviously 'softened' it by replacing some words with either MSA or other dialects - mostly Emarati dialect or Levantine.
I noticed that the difference between Algerian and Moroccan compared to other dialects is the speed of speech. One of my best friends was an Algerian, she spoke a hybrid dialect with me, but I did hear her speak to her family in Algerian. What I noticed was that it wasn't really difficult, but too fast for me to catch up with.


Hemza said:


> I noticed Egyptians/Lebanese/Syrians/Palestinians tend to keep their dialect (expecting EVERYONE fully understand them)


Yes, I understand. In the Eastern part of the Arab world everyone does. It mainly has to do with TV, they tend to get more exposure in terms of films and TV series so speakers of other dialects get used to their dialects at a very early age. They probably just assume that their dialects are easy to understand. Egyptian actually isn't that easy but TV does make a lot of difference. Levantine is pretty close to badawi and gulf dialects than they themselves know, so it's not that hard to understand for most people.


Hemza said:


> Maghrebis/Iraqis tend to switch to either, other dialects, or try to avoid using typical expressions from their dialects (Iraqis for example often switch or include Syrian features when speaking with non Iraqis


From my experience with Iraqis, they don't fully switch, but they do try to soften their dialect considerably and the first choice of replacements comes from Levantine Arabic. I think the main reason was the long isolation of Iraqis until 1991 (laws in Iraq made it harder for them to travel). However, I've noticed that nowadays they don't really change the dialect much, at least not in the UAE. Peoples speaking the dialects around them have had 26 years of exposure, which makes it easier to understand. Well, maybe in other places it's different.


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## elroy

I've never conversed with an Arab in MSA.  Nor have I ever consciously modified my dialect to accommodate my interlocutor.  But I have an advantage because Palestinian Arabic is pretty much universally understood across the Arab World. 

I can relate to Maha as far as speaking with Moroccans is concerned.  To date I think I've only ever had _one_ Moroccan actually speak to me in Moroccan, and I struggled to understood.  Every other time Moroccans have accommodated me to some extent, whether it meant speaking Levantine only, MSA only, or a mix of the two (sometimes they've thrown Moroccan into the mix, probably unconsciously or because they didn't realize that the word or expression in question was specifically Moroccan).


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## Hemza

Mahaodeh said:


> I'm sorry if I offended you.



No, you didn't at all, I just wanted to know why you considered them exceptions and not some others .



> Yes, it is subjective and based on my experiences in the UAE. Algerians and Moroccans were a minority among Arabs there, that's why very few understood their dialects so they spoke a hybrid dialect that others could understand. They probably understood the people there without trouble because they are used to their dialects.



I see. Thanks for sharing your experience.



> I noticed that the difference between Algerian and Moroccan compared to other dialects is the speed of speech. One of my best friends was an Algerian, she spoke a hybrid dialect with me, but I did hear her speak to her family in Algerian. What I noticed was that it wasn't really difficult, but too fast for me to catch up with.



While it is true that some people swallow words, it is not the case for everyone and again, it is a matter of exposure. The first time I heard my Egyptian friend, I could only grasp some words (not counting the fact he speaks really fast) while now, it is much easier for me. Him too had problems with my speech but muuuch less now.



> Yes, I understand. In the Eastern part of the Arab world everyone does.It mainly has to do with TV, they tend to get more exposure in terms of films and TV series so speakers of other dialects get used to their dialects at a very early age



That depends. It is true that media has helped a lot. As for the "Eastern block", I don't think a بحريني and a مصري would be able to communicate easily if any of both never heard the other's dialect (I speak in theory). Of course, closer are the areas, easier it is to communicate, but dividing Arab countries into an "Eastern block" which is able to communicate and a "Western block" which is separated from it, isn't something accurate in my opinion. Even within the Western part which is not an uniform part (especially Algeria, which is pretty big), communication can be hard, depending on the area (as everywhere else, vocabulary more or less differs from an area to another within a country). There are some Moroccans which are harder to understand for me than my Egyptian friend the first time I heard him. As for me, the bedouin dialect I speak itself, isn't intelligible to many Moroccans but is to Mauritanians (so when I go there I have to switch to urban Moroccan to be understood/not be mocked sometimes).



> They probably just assume that their dialects are easy to understand. Egyptian actually isn't that easy but TV does make a lot of difference.



Agree . It proves that exposure plays a big role. For instance, many Egyptians here  work or go around with Maghrebis and even with no former exposure, each one quickly gets use to the other's speech and understands it with ease without any of both soften his dialect.



> Levantine is pretty close to badawi and gulf dialects than they themselves know, so it's not that hard to understand for most people.



I know a group of Palestinian (I'm actually a member of a دبكة troup  ) and I remember once putting a song sang by a Sinaï bedouin singer and surprisingly, I could understand it more easily than them (the worst is that one of these Palestinian is from Bedouin origin). But I can't generalise from this case to everyone of course. I think it relies on people abilities. Also, we communicate a lot by writing and I sometimes have to explain some words like the day I wrote them صهد, no one understood, because they never came across it.



> From my experience with Iraqis, they don't fully switch, but they do try to soften their dialect considerably and the first choice of replacements comes from Levantine Arabic. I think the main reason was the long isolation of Iraqis until 1991 (laws in Iraq made it harder for them to travel). However, I've noticed that nowadays they don't really change the dialect much, at least not in the UAE. Peoples speaking the dialects around them have had 26 years of exposure, which makes it easier to understand. Well, maybe in other places it's different.



They don't fully switch but let's say, mix (afterall, it is hard to completely switch unless being used to another dialect بشكل عميق). In the UAE, the situation may be different from my environnement because people are exposed to Iraqi/Kuwaiti and if I'm not wrong, Iraqi shares features with Gulf dialects which make it easier to understand even to non Gulf people who live in the Gulf while in France, these Iraqis speak with Arabic speakers who aren't used to hear Iraqi. By the way, I can't explain why but Iraqi (at least Baghdadi) is probably my favourite accent .
I have an Iraqi classmate who is always with her two Algerian friends. I don't know how much time it took, but she's able to understand them with no issue.

I relate my experience but people who tend to understand (or at least to get used) the most easily to Maghrebi dialects, are often Saudis.


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## Aloulu

Speaking Tunisian i do stick with non-Tunisians with a more general dialect. Meaning typical Tunisian words will be replaced by general/MSA words. 

Examples? 

Instead of "barsha" (alot) saying "ktir". 
Instead of "behi" saying "kweyes". 
Instead of "ghadi" saying "honak". 

Thats basically the most changes i use when speaking to non-Maghrebis. Cuz i know moroccans or Algerians do understand the Tunisian equivalents of above words i speak with them more Tunisian than i do with Eastern Arabic speakers. 

For me not having been exposed to Arabic soaps or music alot Egyptian dialect is sometimes difficult to understand. Depends on the persons though but some talk from the nose, inside their mouth and i have to ask now and then what they mean. All other dialects i have no problem to communicate with whatsoever.


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## apricots

Aloulu said:


> Instead of "ghadi" saying "honak".



ghadi would probably be understood in Palestine in Jordan where many speakers use ghād.


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## tounsi51

apricots said:


> ghadi would probably be understood in Palestine in Jordan where many speakers use ghād.



I noticed when I visited Jordan for the first time. 

But for me, living in the UAE, I do use mix of all dialects, including Tunisian to speak with colleagues or people. For car, I will say sayara not karhba. But I won't speak Lebanese Arabic with a Lebanese or Egyptian Arabic with Egyptian but a dialectal MSA 

I noticed that also Levantine and Egyptians tend to replace some words with MSA. For example, using ghorfa instead of oda for room.


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## Interprete

I have heard an Arab interpreter saying that mutual intelligibility between dialects like Egyptian and Syrian is rather superficial, and that most speakers *think* they understand the other dialect because they get the general idea, although a lot of details or nuances may not be grasped. She also explained that because most Levantines (and other Arabs) are exposed to the Egyptian dialect through the media, they may get acquainted with colloquial idioms and deduce their possible meanings through context, but they may also ascribe an incorrect meaning to those idioms with no one available to ever explain what they truly mean. She mentioned an example of a phrase (can't remember which one) which she heard many times and all her life believed to mean X, until an Egyptian friend explained to her it meant Y.
Has anyone found this to be true, at least to some extent? Or is it an overstatement?

Thanks.


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## Hemza

I think people who tend the most to transform their dialect/adapt themselves are people who come from areas which escape media spotlights (whether it is TV or songs) or have weak media compared to others and I think it includes the Maghreb, Sudan, Chad, Southern/Western Egypt, almost all bedouin areas (whatever the country), mountain areas of the Levant and Arabia (Southern Saudi Arabia and Yemen, mountains of Lebanon/Syria may be too?) and probably Iraq (not sure for Iraq though).

People from Northern Egypt, urban/rural areas of the Levant, urban areas of Saudi Arabia (Ryadh, Jeddah, Mecca, Madina) and urban areas of the Gulf (aka Kuwait, UAE) tend more or less to keep their dialects since they know (consciously or not) they would be understood by many people if not almost everyone (I speak about native speakers).


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## tounsi51

Did any one watch Al Sodma program during Ramadan on MBC? This year they went to Tunisia and they added subtitles in Egyptian Arabic when Tunisians speak.


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## apricots

tounsi51 said:


> I noticed that also Levantine and Egyptians tend to replace some words with MSA. For example, using ghorfa instead of oda for room.



This could be the case but also in Levantine ghurfe is widely used, possibly more than ōDa.


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## Mahaodeh

apricots said:


> but also in Levantine ghurfe is widely used, possibly more than ōDa


I can vouch for that, ghurfa is used much more widely.


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> I can vouch for that, ghurfa is used much more widely.


 In Palestine, this is regional.  In the Galilee, "ōDa" is more common by far, while in Jerusalem "ġurfe" is somewhat more common.


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## eskandar

Hemza said:


> although he doesn't always believe me about the origin of the word (روشن/بالزاف/شرجم for example, the three being from Persian origin but for my friend, those words come from Mars )


روشن (light, bright) is Persian and شرجم is also Persian, a variant of شلغم (turnip). But there's nothing like بالزاف / بزّاف in Persian. I always thought it was a Berber-origin word but I also found this online:


> فكلمة "بْزّاف" التي تضحك بعض المشارقة
> " أصلها "بِجُزَافٍ" حيث دمغت الجيم في الزاي مع سرعة الكلام وأصبح المغاربة ينطقونها "بِزّاف" والباء هي حرف جر. بـ.. جزاف ـ جازفَ ـ يجازف ـ جِزافا
> وجُزاف معناها في القاموس العربي: شيء لا يُعلم كيله أو وزنه عند البيع أو الشراء "اشتراه جِزافًا" / بوفرة وكثرة "كال له المديح جِزافًا"


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## Hemza

eskandar said:


> روشن (light, bright) is Persian and شرجم is also Persian, a variant of شلغم (turnip). But there's nothing like بالزاف / بزّاف in Persian. I always thought it was a Berber-origin word but I also found this online:



روشن:

تعريف و معنى روشن في معجم المعاني الجامع، المعجم الوسيط ،اللغة العربية المعاصر - معجم عربي عربي - صفحة 1

شرجم and روشن
الأصول التاريخية للدارجة الجزائرية: طاقة، شرجم، روشن، شباك

 شرجم (or شرجب but this pronunciation probably disappeared) is actually چهار چوب in Persian.

Both words mean "window" and not turnip 

As for بالزاف, it is not Berber but Persian and came through Arabic as you found out .


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## eskandar

Hemza said:


> شرجم (or شرجب but this pronunciation probably disappeared) is actually چهار چوب in Persian.
> 
> Both words mean "window" and not turnip


Ahh, got it! The transformation of their meanings makes sense, from "light" to "something that lets in light" (for روشن) and from "framework" [lit. four-wood] to "window [frame]" (for شرجم). I just assumed the latter was turnip because the word شرجم exists in Persian as a variant of شلغم "turnip". But I wonder how Moroccan Arabic got these words from Persian in the first place...via Ottoman Turkish, maybe?



> As for بالزاف, it is not Berber but Persian and came through Arabic as you found out .


The supposedly original word is گزاف _gezaaf_ in Persian. If this etymology is true, it's a fascinating one. Looks like you discussed it earlier here.


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## Besbes

From what I know eastern dialects are more or less mutually intelligible. Maghreb dialects are quite different from others due to the singular history of the region. They are more innovative than other dialects, and are more influenced by other languages in phonology and in vocabulary. They also use some Arab words whose meanings have changed or old Arab words not known in the East.
It would be difficult to compare the mutual intelligibility of Arabic dialects to what exists in European languages. Something like Scandivian languages ? Dutch/German ? Spanish/Portuguese ? It very depends on the dialect ( distance between Libyan and Egyptian is not the same that Moroocan-Iraki)


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## Hemza

Besbes said:


> From what I know eastern dialects are more or less mutually intelligible. Maghreb dialects are quite different from others due to the singular history of the region.



Well, this is over simplification and Yemen and Lebanon don't really share a common history (except for some events). I don't see how the Maghreb would be different from other countries. Each area went through singular events which led to what they are today. Also, as you pointed out, there is no one Maghreb dialect but hundreds. About being intelligible, again it relies on each one exposure. A dialect by itself isn't really intelligible with something else. A person talking a dialect is (or not). Put a Lebanese with a Yemeni, you will get surprises. Not that no one is able to understand each other but Arabic is a continuum so a Lebanese will meet no hardship to get a Syrian or a Palestinian, an Iraqi, but it will be a bit less easier with a Yemeni, a Gulf speaker or a Maghrebi (but again, this order may change according to exposure) I've never understood why people (especially the Maghrebis themselves) always try to take distance from other Arabic speakers as if this opposition with an "Eastern uniform block" was as simple as it seems to be (while it is not).



> They are more innovative than other dialects, and are more influenced by other languages in phonology and in vocabulary



Innovative in which way? To which dialects do you compare?
As for vocabulary, it depends on the area (Maghrebi themselves sometimes struggle to understand each other and awkward situations aren't rare) and being "more influenced" is something one should prove. As for phonology, I wonder again in which way it is "more influenced by other languages" (and which languages?). I'm not saying your statements aren't true but your comparison to I suppose, non-Maghrebi dialects, in my opinion, make it frail since from a Hijazi point of view, Bahraini is pretty innovative, from a Palestinian point of view, Egyptian may be innovative (in which case, it would merely mean "different" actually).



> They also use some Arab words whose meanings have changed or old Arab words not known in the East.



You mean they kept some words with their old meaning? That happens for all dialects to a more or less degree, not only in the Maghreb. As for "words not being known in the East", that's probably true for some dialects but the Arabic words used in the Maghreb definitely came with Arabic speakers thus either used to be used in this "East" (which area in this East?) but aren't anymore or are used by some dialects which aren't display in media. A Maghrebi may say (as instance) اخزر or اشبح (look) or حوت (fish) or صهد (heatwave) to a Palestinian (that really occured to me) yet not being understood (or wrongly understood) while being understood by a Saudi or another nationality (and the reverse is possible, the Palestinian may get something another one won't get or get wrongly, like عيط)



> It would be difficult to compare the mutual intelligibility of Arabic dialects to what exists in European languages. Something like Scandivian languages ? Dutch/German ? Spanish/Portuguese ?



That would be irrelevant to compare since history of all those languages "families" (may I call it like this since I'm not skilled enough) are different from each other. There would be no interest because even the result wouldn't have really any meaning.



> It very depends on the dialect ( distance between Libyan and Egyptian is not the same that Moroocan-Iraki)



I agree on this point. Yet, one may find features found in Iraq and found in Morocco as well (and other Maghreb countries), some features found in the Maghreb and Egypt but not elsewhere, some features found in the Levant and in the Arabian peninsula but not elsewhere, some in Egypt/Sudan and the Levant but not elsewhere, some in the Maghreb and Arabia but not elsewehere etc, so it's much harder and complexe than most people think when it comes to the distance between dialects, it doesn't only rely on geography.

Since the thread has been merged with a previous one, I'm surprised by how some (pointing mainly at Maghrebis) tend to consider Libyan being a "bedouin" dialect rather than a Maghrebi one as if there was an opposition, as if no bedouin dialects exist in Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. If some would be willing to create a bedouin group to put Libya along Arabian peninsula, yet some should add all bedouin dialects of all Arab countries into the box. I listened to many Libyan videos, I read some studies (containing lexicon list) made on Libyan dialects (West/East) and there are almost identical to other bedouin varieties of the Maghreb (yet probably just a little bit more conservative for what concerns some features). What one can say about Libyan is the absence of French influence مطلقا which is not found in most other bedouin Maghrebi dialects as well.


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## Besbes

Hemza said:


> Well, this is over simplification and Yemen and Lebanon don't really share a common history (except for some events). I don't see how the Maghreb would be different from other countries. Each area went through singular events which led to what they are today. Also, as you pointed out, there is no one Maghreb dialect but hundreds. About being intelligible, again it relies on each one exposure. A dialect by itself isn't really intelligible with something else. A person talking a dialect is (or not). Put a Lebanese with a Yemeni, you will get surprises. Not that no one is able to understand each other but Arabic is a continuum so a Lebanese will meet no hardship to get a Syrian or a Palestinian, an Iraqi, but it will be a bit less easier with a Yemeni, a Gulf speaker or a Maghrebi (but again, this order may change according to exposure) I've never understood why people (especially the Maghrebis themselves) always try to take distance from other Arabic speakers as if this opposition with an "Eastern uniform block" was as simple as it seems to be (while it is not).



I said that to simplify the thing, but in a general way it's true, a Libyan, a Tunisian and an Algerian won't have many problems to talk with each other, same thing for a Lebanese, Egyptian, and Saudi. But yes as you say there are some exceptions, for example I'm not sure a Mauritanian would be well understood in Tunis or in Algiers speaking his own dialect, same thing for Yemeni dialect. I don't say that to separate North African dialects from others, but in terms of mutual integibillity they clearly consitute a distinct family of dialects


Hemza said:


> Innovative in which way? To which dialects do you compare?
> As for vocabulary, it depends on the area (Maghrebi themselves sometimes struggle to understand each other and awkward situations aren't rare) and being "more influenced" is something one should prove. As for phonology, I wonder again in which way it is "more influenced by other languages" (and which languages?). I'm not saying your statements aren't true but your comparison to I suppose, non-Maghrebi dialects, in my opinion, make it frail since from a Hijazi point of view, Bahraini is pretty innovative, from a Palestinian point of view, Egyptian may be innovative (in which case, it would merely mean "different" actually).



Some examples of innovation : wahed- used as an article, n- in first person, removal of the dual form ( except for some words), use of a verb "to be" ( rani, rak, rah...), a simpler short vowels system, negation in "ma ... ch" ( shared with Egyptian), all those features distinguish the Maghreb dialects fully or partially from others. For phonology I think Berber languages have a strong influence in phonology ( especially in Morocco and West Algeria), for example Berber has only one short vowel : a schwa ( unknown in Standard Arabic) and this vowel is much used in Maghreb dialects ( increasingly from the East to the West)


Hemza said:


> You mean they kept some words with their old meaning? That happens for all dialects to a more or less degree, not only in the Maghreb. As for "words not being known in the East", that's probably true for some dialects but the Arabic words used in the Maghreb definitely came with Arabic speakers thus either used to be used in this "East" (which area in this East?) but aren't anymore or are used by some dialects which aren't display in media. A Maghrebi may say (as instance) اخزر or اشبح (look) or حوت (fish) or صهد (heatwave) to a Palestinian (that really occured to me) yet not being understood (or wrongly understood) while being understood by a Saudi or another nationality (and the reverse is possible, the Palestinian may get something another one won't get or get wrongly, like عيط)



I know it happens in all dialects, but it's one of the reasons why Easterners have problems to understand North African dialects, there are many NA words 100% Arabic but unkown in most East countries.


That would be irrelevant to compare since history of all those languages "families" (may I call it like this since I'm not skilled enough) are different from each other. There would be no interest because even the result wouldn't have really any meaning.


Hemza said:


> Since the thread has been merged with a previous one, I'm surprised by how some (pointing mainly at Maghrebis) tend to consider Libyan being a "bedouin" dialect rather than a Maghrebi one as if there was an opposition, as if no bedouin dialects exist in Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. If some would be willing to create a bedouin group to put Libya along Arabian peninsula, yet some should add all bedouin dialects of all Arab countries into the box. I listened to many Libyan videos, I read some studies (containing lexicon list) made on Libyan dialects (West/East) and there are almost identical to other bedouin varieties of the Maghreb (yet probably just a little bit more conservative for what concerns some features). What one can say about Libyan is the absence of French influence مطلقا which is not found in most other bedouin Maghrebi dialects as well.



I'm not specialist of Lybian dialect but from what I heard of it ( Tripoli dialect) it's quite similar to Tunisian, a bedouin category would make no sense, because as you say many other NA dialects are of Bedouin origin ( before the Bedouin invasion Arabic was only spoken in cities), moreover Tripoli dialect has some strong urban features ( for example removal of interdental sounds). For me Tripoli dialect is a Maghrebi dialect for sure, Eastern Libyan dialect is told to be more related to Egyptian ( but I don't know it to confirm )


----------



## Hemza

Besbes said:


> I said that to simplify the thing, but in a general way it's true, a Libyan, a Tunisian and an Algerian won't have many problems to talk with each other, same thing for a Lebanese, Egyptian, and Saudi.



Within the same country, some people may have problems to communicate. All Saudis don't understand each other and they have to use a kind of "common" dialect or to resort using what is used through the media to communicate. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria are big countries so someone from the North/East/South/West may have problem to get what say someone from the opposite end.



> But yes as you say there are some exceptions, for example I'm not sure a Mauritanian would be well understood in Tunis or in Algiers speaking his own dialect,



Certainly not, neither a Mauritanian would be able to understand someone from Algiers or Tunis. It's the difference between Bedouin and Urban dialects, exactly like someone from Cairo would have some troubles to understand someone from the Egyptian Western desert or a Damascus citizen, with someone from the Syrian desert (All of this of course, if there is no previous exposure). This phenomena exists for all languages I think.



> same thing for Yemeni dialect. I don't say that to separate North African dialects from others, but in terms of mutual integibillity they clearly consitute a distinct family of dialects



As Bahraini constitutes a kind of sub-group with Emarati, Kuwaiti, Southern Iraqi, as Syrian may be grouped with Lebanese and Palestinian, Egyptian with Sudanese and Urban Hijazi, etc.



> Some examples of innovation : wahed- used as an article



Only in Morocco and Algeria (and not in bedouin dialects).



> n- in first person



A feature found in some places in Egypt as well and which existed in Arabia in some places. I don't think it is a Maghrebi innovation but rather came with the dialect spoken by the tribes which arabised the area. As far as innovations are concerned, you may add the "ب" used in Egypt and the Levant before verbs, you may add the ع put in many words in some Yemeni dialects which make someone who is not used to such feature, unable to understand, all the features of Gulf dialects (some shared with Iraqi/Jordanian/Palestinian/Syrian) like the تش of the feminine, the غ which becomes ق or vice versa (a feature found in the Maghreb as well) the ج which becomes ي etc. Each dialect has innovations (if we compare to standard Arabic).



> removal of the dual form ( except for some words)



That depends on the area, some areas continue to use the dual in most cases but I agree that in many places, it disappeared except in some set sentences/words (شهرين, يومين).



> Use of a verb "to be" ( rani, rak, rahu...)



Rather peculiar to Algerian dialects. The rest of the Maghreb also use it but much less and for some different instances. This verb also exists in the Gulf to emphasise if I'm not wrong, which is also how it is used in Mauritania/Morocco/Tunisia/Libya.



> a simpler short vowels system



Compared to فصحى, it's true, yet you may find (mostly in bedouin based dialects) the loss of الضمة in many words, replaced by الكسرة.



> negation in "ma ... sh" ( shared with Egyptian)



Also shared with some Palestinian/Jordanian areas, some Yemeni ones too (it existence in Yemen proves it is not a North African/Palestinian innovation). This is not really an innovation compared to other dialects, just what we can call a double negation. Also, this feature isn't present in the bedouin dialects of Morocco, is absent from Mauritania and from some Libyan dialects (probably in some Algerian areas too but I'm not sure).



> All those features distinguish the Maghreb dialects fully or partially from others.



Maghreb dialects do have features which distinguish them from other dialects but again, each area distinguishes itself from another so in my opinion, it is more complexe than this splitting between a Western block vs an Eastern block, because it depends on what level we compare.



> For phonology I think Berber languages have a strong influence in phonology ( especially in Morocco and West Algeria), for example Berber has only one short vowel : a schwa ( unknown in Standard Arabic) and this vowel is much used in Maghreb dialects ( increasingly from the East to the West)



Berber may have influenced the phonology of some Maghrebi dialects as well as some other dialects are influenced by other languages in their phonology too, it is not peculiar to the Maghreb. Even in Morocco and Western Algeria, it depends on the area, some areas tend to use a schwa more frequently than some others, Berber influence may be stronger in some places than others (Berber influence also exist in Tunisia and Libya contrary to what some said). Where Berber is the most prevalent on Arabic dialects is probably the North-West of Morocco and Jijel area in Algeria.



> I know it happens in all dialects, but it's one of the reasons why Easterners have problems to understand North African dialects



This is rather the lack of exposure, Maghreb media are rather weak (to not say really bad and poor in quality content, in most cases). On the other hand, you have some sentence building or expressions typically Egyptian (sometimes shared with Sudanese) that everyone understand thanks to Egyptian media exposure. No other Arab country would say عامل ايه؟ or النهار دا yet everyone is able to understand it (and I'm sure there are ways or asking "how are you" used in Egypt not heard in media thus unknown by other Arabic speakers) . Similarly, people are able to get وش لونك for example which means in the Gulf/Iraq/Syria/Jordan "how are you?". If there wasn't any exposure to these dialects in a way or another, many people who aren't from those areas would have misunderstood it as "what is your colour?". In the same way, if Maghreb media were under the spotlight, people would have no problem to get اشحالك, كيف داير/عامل, وش راك, شنوا/وش حوالك, شن الجو, كيف مداير, etc.



> xThere are many NA words 100% Arabic but unkown in most East countries.



I agree since I experience this on a daily basis but this doesn't distinguish the Maghreb from this "East". A Saudi from the North may use an Arabic word unknown in the next area, a Syrian may use an Arabic word unknown by an Iraqi, etc. This issue exists in all Arab countries.




> I'm not specialist of Lybian dialect but from what I heard of it ( Tripoli dialect) it's quite similar to Tunisian



And Eastern Algerian as well.



> For me Tripoli dialect is a Maghrebi dialect for sure, Eastern Libyan dialect is told to be more related to Egyptian ( but I don't know it to confirm )



Eastern Libyan is closer to the rest of the Maghreb (yet the closest to it is probably Western Egyptian near the Libyan border, but not the Nile dialects) since the tribes which settled in Eastern Libya are the same as the ones who settled in the rest of the Maghreb (and in Western Egypt). It is rather Western Egyptian dialects which exhibit some features found in the Maghreb (mainly bedouin Maghrebi) rather than Nile Egyptian. It is not only a matter of geography but you have to take in account whether what you're talking about is a bedouin dialect, an urban one, a rural one, what are its main features, etc.


----------



## Besbes

Hemza said:


> Within the same country, some people may have problems to communicate. All Saudis don't understand each other and they have to use a kind of "common" dialect or to resort using what is used through the media to communicate. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria are big countries so someone from the North/East/South/West may have problem to get what say someone from the opposite end.



Within a same country it might be more a question of accent or local expressions than a real difference in the dialect, this happens in every country, but at the point of not understanding each other I'm not sure.


Hemza said:


> Certainly not, neither a Mauritanian would be able to understand someone from Algiers or Tunis. It's the difference between Bedouin and Urban dialects, exactly like someone from Cairo would have some troubles to understand someone from the Egyptian Western desert or a Damascus citizen, with someone from the Syrian desert (All of this of course, if there is no previous exposure). This phenomena exists for all languages I think.



I'm not sure the Bedoui/Urban difference can explain it all, for example people from Djelfa region in northern Sahara would be fully understood in Algiers, same thing for Tunisia I guess. It's also a geographical issue



Hemza said:


> Only in Morocco and Algeria (and not in bedouin dialects).



So at least 80% of Maghreb people



Hemza said:


> A feature found in some places in Egypt as well and which existed in Arabia in some places. I don't think it is a Maghrebi innovation but rather came with the dialect spoken by the tribes which arabised the area. As far as innovations are concerned, you may add the "ب" used in Egypt and the Levant before verbs, you may add the ع put in many words in some Yemeni dialects which make someone who is not used to such feature, unable to understand, all the features of Gulf dialects (some shared with Iraqi/Jordanian/Palestinian/Syrian) like the تش of the feminine, the غ which becomes ق or vice versa (a feature found in the Maghreb as well) the ج which becomes ي etc. Each dialect has innovations (if we compare to standard Arabic).



The fact the innovation was brought doesn't change the fact that it is an innovative feature of Maghreb dialects, a very logical innovation by the way. Indeed every dialects have their own innovations which make them distinct from others, but NA dialects concentrate a higher amount of innovation, and I have forgotten some,



Hemza said:


> That depends on the area, some areas continue to use the dual in most cases but I agree that in many places, it disappeared except in some set sentences/words (شهرين, يومين).



Well dual forms might have been kept by some dialects, but the very large majority of Maghreb people would say _juj/zoudj/zouz kleb _rather than _kelbeen (_two dogs). Which would sould very odd pronounced in a Marrakech, Constantine or Bizert street. 



Hemza said:


> Rather peculiar to Algerian dialects. The rest of the Maghreb also use it but much less and for some different instances. This verb also exists in the Gulf to emphasise if I'm not wrong, which is also how it is used in Mauritania/Morocco/Tunisia/Libya.



Yes Algerian speakers may use it more than others and the sense can be slightly different, for example in Tunisian you may say "rani tounsi" ( I'm Tunisian), whereas in Algeria ra forms are only used for location ( rani f-ed dar : I'm at home) , humors ( rani farhan : I'm happy), present continuous ( rani djay : I'm coming), it's the equivalent of Spanish verb Estar
I'm quite amazed to learn it exits in the Gulf 



Hemza said:


> Maghreb dialects do have features which distinguish them from other dialects but again, each area distinguishes itself from another so in my opinion, it is more complexe than this splitting between a Western block vs an Eastern block, because it depends on what level we compare.


 
It's not about comparing two blocks, because these are not blocks, but families of dialect based on mutual intelligibility. We can discuss the number of families thera are, ( 2,3,4, more ?), but for me it's clear NA dialects constitute a very distinct family, probably the most "unique" family of dialects



Hemza said:


> Berber may have influenced the phonology of some Maghrebi dialects as well as some other dialects are influenced by other languages in their phonology too, it is not peculiar to the Maghreb. Even in Morocco and Western Algeria, it depends on the area, some areas tend to use a schwa more frequently than some others, Berber influence may be stronger in some places than others (Berber influence also exist in Tunisia and Libya contrary to what some said). Where Berber is the most prevalent on Arabic dialects is probably the North-West of Morocco and Jijel area in Algeria.



Every dialects has been affected by previously spoken languages but the Berber influence is unique to the Maghreb and it is probably stronger than for other dialects ( Berber is still widely spoken in NA unlike Coptic, Aramean etc...). Indeed it concerns the whole Maghreb even if it is stronger in Morocco than in Tunisia ( for geographical and historical reasons I guess)



Hemza said:


> This is rather the lack of exposure, Maghreb media are rather weak (to not say really bad and poor in quality content, in most cases). On the other hand, you have some sentence building or expressions typically Egyptian (sometimes shared with Sudanese) that everyone understand thanks to Egyptian media exposure. No other Arab country would say عامل ايه؟ or النهار دا yet everyone is able to understand it (and I'm sure there are ways or asking "how are you" used in Egypt not heard in media thus unknown by other Arabic speakers) . Similarly, people are able to get وش لونك for example which means in the Gulf/Iraq/Syria/Jordan "how are you?". If there wasn't any exposure to these dialects in a way or another, many people who aren't from those areas would have misunderstood it as "what is your colour?". In the same way, if Maghreb media were under the spotlight, people would have no problem to get اشحالك, كيف داير/عامل, وش راك, شنوا/وش حوالك, شن الجو, كيف مداير, etc.



Pure mutual integibillity doesn't depend on exposure, I'm sure a Spanish speaker looking everyday at an Italian TV show could understand quite a lot of what is said after some month of watching , that doesn't mean that Spanish and Italian are mutually comprehensible, I guess it'd be the same for Dutch and German.
Real mutual integibillity comes when two person speaking different languages/dialects can understand each other without prior knowledge of the other person language. 
3amel ih would be easily understood by almost every Arab ( the verb 3ml is widely used and with an interrogative intonation it's easy to guess what the question is ), same thing for nahar da.



Hemza said:


> I agree since I experience this on a daily basis but this doesn't distinguish the Maghreb from this "East". A Saudi from the North may use an Arabic word unknown in the next area, a Syrian may use an Arabic word unknown by an Iraqi, etc. This issue exists in all Arab countries.



Maghreb dialects have very specific shared vocabulary and expressions, there are many words you'll hear only in NA, some examples : 
Hanout : shop
3esses : keeper
Sabbat : shoe
Hellouf : pig
fellous : baby chicken
(l)(a)tey : tea 
Hchouma : shame
khammem : think
njem : can
khzar : watch
hdar : speak
dar : do
chtaH : dance
khallas : pay
della3 : wartermelon
kermous : fig
degla : date ( fruit)
feggous : melon/cucumber
loubia : bean
chkoun : who
ta3 : possessive pronoun
bech : in order to 
3la khater : because
yekhi/yek : isn't it
za3ma : allegedly
bel3ani : on purpose
Ou zid 

There are hundreds of others ( maybe thousands if we consider Berber, French and Turkish words)
That's what make me say that there is a real typical NA vocabulary and for sure it doesn't make comprehension with Eastern countries easier 



Hemza said:


> Eastern Libyan is closer to the rest of the Maghreb (yet the closest to it is probably Western Egyptian near the Libyan border, but not the Nile dialects) since the tribes which settled in Eastern Libya are the same as the ones who settled in the rest of the Maghreb (and in Western Egypt). It is rather Western Egyptian dialects which exhibit some features found in the Maghreb (mainly bedouin Maghrebi) rather than Nile Egyptian. It is not only a matter of geography but you have to take in account whether what you're talking about is a bedouin dialect, an urban one, a rural one, what are its main features, etc.



Ok thanks for the information  It's quite unusual to hear Libyan arabic, and the few we hear is mostly Tripoli dialect so this dialect for me is quite a mistery


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## Aloulu

If the question is whether NA arabic can be considered a different type of arabic compared to the others then there is no doubt about that. The Maghreb has its own unique history, obviously. Berbers were mentioned. Which can also be found back in its language. So no discussion about the fact that it composes a different family compared to the rest of the Arab world. 
The wrong assumption however is that "all the words that are different to Eastern arabic are therefore non-arabic words". Many words on the small list above are actually arabic words often going back to classical arabic (pre dating msa arabic). Some of the words are until today still used in yemen for example. This wrong assumption often comes up when people think that arabic started once from msa arabic. And along this line "since easterners speak a language closer in vocabulary to MSA the maghrebis unique vocabulary must be non-arabic and berber for example". Classical arabic pre-dates MSA. And even back in the days and before the time of prophet Muhammed there were sometimes very separate arabic dialects in the huge arabic peninsula.

Tripoli (Libyan) Arabic is indeed very similar to southern Tunisian arabic. And in terms of typical tripoli arabic their typical words as the same as our tunisian words in many instances. Benghazi arabic however is more Egyptian with typical words like "zayyek", "mabsout" etc but still not "real Egyptian" in the sense that it does have some typical Maghrebi features/words. In general i would say u have a "western maghrebi dialect" from the far west of morocco to algiers somewhere. I initially had some problems understanding this though i speak Tunisian. 
And "eastern maghrebi dialect" from eastern algeria (Annaba possibly Constantine) to Tunis all the way to Tripoli. Benghazi/eastern libya is in that sense a separate somewhat "non typical maghrebi dialect". But this classification does not take typical and seperate bedouin dialects into account like hassaniya in morocco or desert libyan dialects as spoken in southern libyan desert towns.


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## Hemza

Besbes said:


> Within a same country it might be more a question of accent or local expressions than a real difference in the dialect, this happens in every country, but at the point of not understanding each other I'm not sure.



I had a classmate at university from South-Western Saudi Arabia, himself told me he could never use his local dialect but had to switch to Urban Hijazi dialect when talking to other Saudis. Oh and he needed few times to get used to my dialect and to my surprise, we had many features in common. Of course, this intelligibility is more or less prevalent but within a same country, some people may be unable to understand each other while for some others, some expressions may be hard to get.



> I'm not sure the Bedoui/Urban difference can explain it all, it's also a geographical issue



Of course, the bedouin/urban duality doesn't explain everything yet it should be taken into consideration. I can't speak for Algeria and Tunisia isn't very big  but a Northern Moroccan will have the hardest time to understand a حسانية speaker.



> So at least 80% of Maghreb people



You've got a point .



> The fact the innovation was brought doesn't change the fact that it is an innovative feature of Maghreb dialects, a very logical innovation by the way. Indeed every dialects have their own innovations which make them distinct from others, but NA dialects concentrate a higher amount of innovation, and I have forgotten some



It is not an innovation then, since it has been brought but it's a feature of Maghrebi dialects today since they all retained it.



> Well dual forms might have been kept by some dialects, but the very large majority of Maghreb people would say _juj/zoudj/zouz kleb _rather than _kelbeen (_two dogs)



True, yet many other dialects (non-Maghrebi) would say "اثنين كلاب" (by the way, زوج isn't used in my bedouin dialect although I personnaly use it sometimes beside اثنين).



> Yes Algerian speakers may use it more than others and the sense can be slightly different. I'm quite amazed to learn it exits in the Gulf



In Arabia (not only the Gulf, sorry) it has been kept as a conjugated verb (ترى/ترين etc) while in the Maghreb, it seems that only the imperative form had been kept.



> For me it's clear NA dialects constitute a very distinct family, probably the most "unique" family of dialects



It is distinct yet even in the East, you find distinct groups, that was my point.



> Every dialects has been affected by previously spoken languages but the Berber influence is unique to the Maghreb and it is probably stronger than for other dialects ( Berber is still widely spoken in NA unlike Coptic, Aramean etc...). Indeed it concerns the whole Maghreb even if it is stronger in Morocco than in Tunisia ( for geographical and historical reasons I guess)



I have no idea if it's stronger or not compared to other areas. Berber is still spoken yet I think that Turkish influence is even stronger on Maghrebi dialects than Berber (for lexicon).



> Pure mutual integibillity doesn't depend on exposure, I'm sure a Spanish speaker looking everyday at an Italian TV show could understand quite a lot of what is said after some month of watching , that doesn't mean that Spanish and Italian are mutually comprehensible, I guess it'd be the same for Dutch and German.



I don't think the comparison is right when it comes to Arabic dialects. Those languages' history are pretty different. If Morocco and Algeria, Tunisia and Libya were one country (or Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc), we wouldn't even talk about all those dialects but it would bear the name of the country.



> Real mutual integibillity comes when two person speaking different languages/dialects can understand each other without prior knowledge of the other person language



That would make only dialects whithin the same group, intelligible then. In such case, Ba7raini isn't intelligible to a Palestinian let's say.



> 3amel ih would be easily understood by almost every Arab ( the verb 3ml is widely used and with an interrogative intonation it's easy to guess what the question is )same thing for nahar da.



With no prior exposure and according to how it is used by most dialects, I think most non Egyptians would understand it as "what are you doing?" and not "how are you?". I said this to show how media exposure is decisive. 3amala is widely used but not with such a meaning (or in such expression) across most dialects.



> Maghreb dialects have very specific shared vocabulary and expressions, there are many words you'll hear only in NA



حانوت= Arabic word used if I'm not wrong in almost all Arab countries with a slight different meaning than its use in the Maghreb (which is "a shop").
عساس= old Arabic word. I don't know if it is still used in other Arab countries but my Egyptian friend understood it the day I said it.
صباط= also used in Lebanon and Syria (and in the Maghreb, you also find نعال at least in my dialect)
حلوف= also used in Egypt but I forgot its meaning.
أفلوس= looks like a Berber word. I guess it is used in Algeria. In Morocco as far as I know, we call it either كتكوت or فريخ
التاي= True that only the Maghreb use it (Libya say شاهي). But all words for "tea" are loanwords so...
حشومة= I don't know if it's used for "shame" but for sure, the roots حشم is used in some places in other Arabic countries.
خمم= Arabic word originally خمن (used in Egypt at least for sure) and it means "to guess". In the Maghreb, فكر is also used.
نجم= typical from Algeria/Tunisia and it is an Arabic word. Well, it is not used in the whole Maghreb
خزر= Arabic word still used in Arabia I think (beside شبح, used in the Maghreb and some places in Arabia)
هدر= Arabic word, still used the same way as in the Maghreb in the Yemen. In Saudi Arabia, it means "to talk non sense". You can add دوى/يدوي and هدرز yet this latter is typical from Libya and it is probably a deformation of هدر.
دار/يدير= Arabic word (you know ادارة I guess?) not used for "to do" as far as I know in non Maghrebi countries, but you find it in Syria and Iraq if I'm not wrong in the expression دير بالك the same way Maghrebis would say رد بالك (be careful). عمل is also used in the Maghreb and in some dialects, عدل.
شطح= Arabic word used in other countries yet with a different meaning. Some Maghrebi areas do use رقص too, both verbs exist.
خلص= Arabic word which means "to put an end" and I think it was used for contracts. So it make sense to say "خلص" for "to pay" since a transaction is a kind of contract.
دلاع (or دلاح in some Moroccan areas)= I don't know the origin of this word but you're right on this, this is typically Maghrebi.
كرموس= Typically Maghrebi too and I don't know its origin (Berber may be?)
دقلة= a kind of date if I'm not wrong. Typical from Algeria/Tunisia. In Morocco, we call it تمر.
فقوس (pronounced "feqquus" in Morocco) is an word (I ignore its origin), a kind of cucumber a bit different from خيار (it means "melon" in Algeria?) called in English "Armenian cucumber".
لوبية= beans. The word used in all Arabic countries as far as I know.
اشكون= contraction of many Arabic words, أي+شي+يكون, this one is typical from the Maghreb,yet contraction happened in all Arabic countries (وش, شنو, etc). You also find من and منهو which are widespread too in the Maghreb.
تاع= or متاع or نتاع are from Arabic origin and as far as I know, used in many countries like Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria (بتاع/تاع). Some Maghreb dialects lack a possessive pronoun and only use الاضافة
باش= again, the contraction of Arabic words, ب+اي+شي. Typical from the Maghreb but you also find على جل, على ود, على خاطر, على قبال and much more old fashioned, على شان which survived only in Libya, to mean "in order".
ياخي/اياك= both being Arabic words and word related to "brother" are used in all Arabic countries I think.
زعما= Arabic word (roots زعم) that you also find in the Gulf with the same meaning under the form يا زعم
بالعاني= Arabic (عنى/يعني). Probably used in other areas yet I must find where.

Most of those words haven't been "created" in the Maghreb but came with the Arabic speaking people who came to arabise the Maghreb so it means that in Arabia, almost all those words and expressions where at a time (I can't say until now for everything yet for some words, until now) used.

I'm not saying all those words would be understood by everyone (exactly like no one understand all Iraqi/Palestinian/Yemeni etc expressions and features) but many are actually used in other Arabic countries.



> Maybe thousands if we consider Berber, French and Turkish words



Berber words don't make up a lot of the lexicon. As for Turkish, you find them in almost all Arabic countries, you may find نيشان in Morocco and in Iraq (in spite the distance) and Turkish words are even more numerous in Syria/Iraq than the Maghreb.



> That's what make me say that there is a real typical NA vocabulary and for sure it doesn't make comprehension with Eastern countries easier



I agree on this, but isn't it the case for all dialects? Is a Jordanian able to understand easily أشتي أشوف سقلك? I don't think so, yet a Yemeni/South-Western Saudi (my ex-classmate) would say that to say "I want to see your children". Again, it has to do with media exposure and if people were more exposed to Maghrebi vocabulary, they would be able to understand it easily exactly like it happened to Levantine dialects and Egyptian which themselves have some expressions not used everywhere.



> Ok thanks for the information  It's quite unusual to hear Libyan arabic, and the few we hear is mostly Tripoli dialect so this dialect for me is quite a mistery



You're welcome. Libya is rather unknown that's why.


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## Besbes

Aloulu said:


> If the question is whether NA arabic can be considered a different type of arabic compared to the others then there is no doubt about that. The Maghreb has its own unique history, obviously. Berbers were mentioned. Which can also be found back in its language. So no discussion about the fact that it composes a different family compared to the rest of the Arab world.



Indeed it is, I'm not a specialist of Eastern dialects to say how many families of dialects there are, but at least Maghreb dialects are one undoubtedly.



Aloulu said:


> The wrong assumption however is that "all the words that are different to Eastern arabic are therefore non-arabic words".



It's a common mistake made by non Maghrebi speakers to consider words they don't know as non Arabic word, actually the basic vocabulary of NA dialects is more than 90% of Arabic origin.



Aloulu said:


> In general i would say u have a "western maghrebi dialect" from the far west of morocco to algiers somewhere. I initially had some problems understanding this though i speak Tunisian.
> And "eastern maghrebi dialect" from eastern algeria (Annaba possibly Constantine) to Tunis all the way to Tripoli.



That's an interesting attempt of classification but we would need more objectives features to classify these dialects, even if it makes sense for me. Regarding mutual intelligibility it would difficult to classify NA sub-dialects, because a dialect can be comprehensible with a second one but not with a third. For instance someone from Central Algeria could understand well a Libyan speaker and a Moroccan speaker but  a Moroccan and a Libyan could get trouble to converse


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## Besbes

Hemza said:


> I had a classmate at university from South-Western Saudi Arabia, himself told me he could never use his local dialect but had to switch to Urban Hijazi dialect when talking to other Saudis. Oh and he needed few times to get used to my dialect and to my surprise, we had many features in common. Of course, this intelligibility is more or less prevalent but within a same country, some people may be unable to understand each other while for some others, some expressions may be hard to get.



Well communication must not be something easy in this country . It's probablè due to the fact SA is a huge desert, with some dialects remaining very isolated from others



Hemza said:


> It is not an innovation then, since it has been brought but it's a feature of Maghrebi dialects today since they all retained it.



Not an innovation but at least an innovative feature



Hemza said:


> True, yet many other dialects (non-Maghrebi) would say "اثنين كلاب" (by the way, زوج isn't used in my bedouin dialect although I personnaly use it sometimes beside اثنين).



From what I've heard from Syrian and Egyptian dialects they always use dual forms for nouns, I can't say for others



Hemza said:


> In Arabia (not only the Gulf, sorry) it has been kept as a conjugated verb (ترى/ترين etc) while in the Maghreb, it seems that only the imperative form had been kept.



But with the sense of " being" or "seeing" ? 



Hemza said:


> I have no idea if it's stronger or not compared to other areas. Berber is still spoken yet I think that Turkish influence is even stronger on Maghrebi dialects than Berber (for lexicon).



It's difficult to compare the influences of Turkish and Berber because Berber is a substratum language, Turkish has brought many words to NA dialects, it hasn't changed the pronounciation or the syntax of the Arabic dialects



Hemza said:


> I don't think the comparison is right when it comes to Arabic dialects. Those languages' history are pretty different. If Morocco and Algeria, Tunisia and Libya were one country (or Syria, Lebanon, Palestine etc), we wouldn't even talk about all those dialects but it would bear the name of the country.



I don't compare the languages, I just say that with exposure many languages who basically are not mutually comprehensible can become it.



Hemza said:


> That would make only dialects whithin the same group, intelligible then. In such case, Ba7raini isn't intelligible to a Palestinian let's say.



Well my limited knwoledge of Bahraini dialect doesn't allow me to reply  But I think that without exposure a Palestinian shouldn't have much difficulties to talk with most of Near-Eastern dialect speakers



Hemza said:


> حانوت= Arabic word used if I'm not wrong in almost all Arab countries with a slight different meaning than its use in the Maghreb (which is "a shop").
> عساس= old Arabic word. I don't know if it is still used in other Arab countries but my Egyptian friend understood it the day I said it.
> صباط= also used in Lebanon and Syria (and in the Maghreb, you also find نعال at least in my dialect)
> حلوف= also used in Egypt but I forgot its meaning.
> أفلوس= looks like a Berber word. I guess it is used in Algeria. In Morocco as far as I know, we call it either كتكوت or فريخ
> التاي= True that only the Maghreb use it (Libya say شاهي). But all words for "tea" are loanwords so...
> حشومة= I don't know if it's used for "shame" but for sure, the roots حشم is used in some places in other Arabic countries.
> خمم= Arabic word originally خمن (used in Egypt at least for sure) and it means "to guess". In the Maghreb, فكر is also used.
> نجم= typical from Algeria/Tunisia and it is an Arabic word. Well, it is not used in the whole Maghreb
> خزر= Arabic word still used in Arabia I think (beside شبح, used in the Maghreb and some places in Arabia)
> هدر= Arabic word, still used the same way as in the Maghreb in the Yemen. In Saudi Arabia, it means "to talk non sense". You can add دوى/يدوي and هدرز yet this latter is typical from Libya and it is probably a deformation of هدر.
> دار/يدير= Arabic word (you know ادارة I guess?) not used for "to do" as far as I know in non Maghrebi countries, but you find it in Syria and Iraq if I'm not wrong in the expression دير بالك the same way Maghrebis would say رد بالك (be careful). عمل is also used in the Maghreb and in some dialects, عدل.
> شطح= Arabic word used in other countries yet with a different meaning. Some Maghrebi areas do use رقص too, both verbs exist.
> خلص= Arabic word which means "to put an end" and I think it was used for contracts. So it make sense to say "خلص" for "to pay" since a transaction is a kind of contract.
> دلاع (or دلاح in some Moroccan areas)= I don't know the origin of this word but you're right on this, this is typically Maghrebi.
> كرموس= Typically Maghrebi too and I don't know its origin (Berber may be?)
> دقلة= a kind of date if I'm not wrong. Typical from Algeria/Tunisia. In Morocco, we call it تمر.
> فقوس (pronounced "feqquus" in Morocco) is an word (I ignore its origin), a kind of cucumber a bit different from خيار (it means "melon" in Algeria?) called in English "Armenian cucumber".
> لوبية= beans. The word used in all Arabic countries as far as I know.
> اشكون= contraction of many Arabic words, أي+شي+يكون, this one is typical from the Maghreb,yet contraction happened in all Arabic countries (وش, شنو, etc). You also find من and منهو which are widespread too in the Maghreb.
> تاع= or متاع or نتاع are from Arabic origin and as far as I know, used in many countries like Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria (بتاع/تاع). Some Maghreb dialects lack a possessive pronoun and only use الاضافة
> باش= again, the contraction of Arabic words, ب+اي+شي. Typical from the Maghreb but you also find على جل, على ود, على خاطر, على قبال and much more old fashioned, على شان which survived only in Libya, to mean "in order".
> ياخي/اياك= both being Arabic words and word related to "brother" are used in all Arabic countries I think.
> زعما= Arabic word (roots زعم) that you also find in the Gulf with the same meaning under the form يا زعم
> بالعاني= Arabic (عنى/يعني). Probably used in other areas yet I must find where.
> 
> Most of those words haven't been "created" in the Maghreb but came with the Arabic speaking people who came to arabise the Maghreb so it means that in Arabia, almost all those words and expressions where at a time (I can't say until now for everything yet for some words, until now) used.
> 
> I'm not saying all those words would be understood by everyone (exactly like no one understand all Iraqi/Palestinian/Yemeni etc expressions and features) but many are actually used in other Arabic countries.



Nice explanations 
But you have not well understood what I've said, of course those words have an origin and so are related to roots you may find in a country or another, but the fact these words are shared homogeneously ( in form and meaning) in all Maghreb countries make them a specific Maghrebi vocabulary, like I guess Levant dialects have a shared typical vocabulary and maybe the same for Arabian dialects. To sum up, if you show that list to  a Moroccan, or to an Algerian, or to a Tunisian they will all understand the whole liste ( or 90%), it wouldn't be the case for a Egyptian, a Syrian or a Saudi I'mnot sure they would understand (with the right meaning) more than 25%.
To get back on the list I'm sure hanout is widespread outside of Maghreb countries same for loubia, delle3 may come from Arabic "dhalla3" rib, karmous probably from karma ( fig tree in NA, but vine tree in Arabic), degla is a variety but may be used for all dates in general like tamra.



Hemza said:


> Berber words don't make up a lot of the lexicon. As for Turkish, you find them in almost all Arabic countries, you may find نيشان in Morocco and in Iraq (in spite the distance) and Turkish words are even more numerous in Syria/Iraq than the Maghreb.



If you come to children vocabulary and farming Berber words are quite a lot, but you're right in basic language they are few, for Turkish the borrowed words may be different from a country to an other. 



Hemza said:


> I agree on this, but isn't it the case for all dialects? Is a Jordanian able to understand easily أشتي أشوف سقلك? I don't think so, yet a Yemeni/South-Western Saudi (my ex-classmate) would say that to say "I want to see your children". Again, it has to do with media exposure and if people were more exposed to Maghrebi vocabulary, they would be able to understand it easily exactly like it happened to Levantine dialects and Egyptian which themselves have some expressions not used everywhere.



A Jordanian I don't know but an Algerian could have got it , the verb yechti means "to like/to love" in Eastern Algeria, what a surprise to see it in a Yemeni sentence !


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## Aloulu

Besbes said:


> A Jordanian I don't know but an Algerian could have got it , the verb yechti means "to like/to love" in Eastern Algeria, what a surprise to see it in a Yemeni sentence !



I have not been exposed alot to Algerian or Moroccan Arabic and always noticed that Eastern Algerian Arabic differs quite alot from Western Algerian. The last one being more difficult for me. 

But this expression of" yechti echouf saqlek"... I would not be sure what it means although having a general guess what it could mean. To show you the difference even from someone speaking Tunisian compared to apparently Eastern Algerian. One of the reasons is also that i have been less exposed to it due having grown up outside Tunisia and not familiar alot with for example Algerian music. 

We would say "n7eb nshouf wildek/awlaadek".


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## Hemza

Besbes said:


> Well communication must not be something easy in this country . It's probablè due to the fact SA is a huge desert, with some dialects remaining very isolated from others



Saudi Arabia is far from being an exception. You may find Moroccans which are unable to communicate correctly because of this. I'm suuure it also happens in Algeria which is a big desert too  (my classmate comes from moutain area, the South West is made of mountains, not desert). Egypt probably faces such case too, Libya, Iraq, Sudan, probably Syria etc.



> From what I've heard from Syrian and Egyptian dialects they always use dual forms for nouns, I can't say for others



One of my closest friend is Egyptian and he uses the dual for some words, for some others, he uses اثنين+plural.



> But with the sense of " being" or "seeing" ?



In the case we're talking about, it's like the French "tu vois" we add sometimes to emphasise.

As for the meaning "to see", I don't know if it's used in Arabia but I know the verb أرى is used in the Maghreb to say "to see" too (ريتك, ما ريناكش etc).



> It's difficult to compare the influences of Turkish and Berber because Berber is a substratum language, Turkish has brought many words to NA dialects, it hasn't changed the pronounciation or the syntax of the Arabic dialects



Berber may have influenced the pronunciation to a more or less degree yet it depends where in the Maghreb, also how it affected the syntax? I'm asking because I don't know.



> I don't compare the languages, I just say that with exposure many languages who basically are not mutually comprehensible can become it.



I think it will be muuuch easier for a Moroccan to get used to Iraqi (or the opposite) than for a Spaniard to get used to Italian.



> Well my limited knwoledge of Bahraini dialect doesn't allow me to reply



Mine too but from what I read about Gulf dialects, I'm surprised by the similarities they have with North Africa (and other dialects too). Dialects are closer with each other than most people think.



> But I think that without exposure a Palestinian shouldn't have much difficulties to talk with most of Near-Eastern dialect speakers



A Palestinian (as instance) with no exposure to Iraqi, to Lebanese, to Egyptian, may get what is said most of the time but for the Gulf, it's pretty different. My point isn't to divide (and conquer  ) but rather to prove that the "Near Eastern dialects" don't form an homogenous block as many people (especially Maghreb people) may think. I have the chance to be exposed to various dialects (in my university) and through my readings and there is definitly (in my opinion) not an Eastern block. There is a Maghrebi block but one may put Egypt, Sudan and Urban Hijazi in a group, then Najdi, Southern Jordanian (basically Najdi/Hijazi dialects) Gulf dialects and Southern Iraqi together, Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian and urban Jordanian together, etc. My ranking itself isn't accurate at all and in order to be accurate for such thing, one must take in account a lot of factors.



> Nice explanations



You're welcome . I like etymology.



> But you have not well understood what I've said, of course those words have an origin and so are related to roots you may find in a country or another, but the fact these words are shared homogeneously ( in form and meaning) in all Maghreb countries make them a specific Maghrebi vocabulary, like I guess Levant dialects have a shared typical vocabulary and maybe the same for Arabian dialects. To sum up, if you show that list to  a Moroccan, or to an Algerian, or to a Tunisian they will all understand the whole liste ( or 90%), it wouldn't be the case for a Egyptian, a Syrian or a Saudi I'mnot sure they would understand (with the right meaning) more than 25%.



I got your point now and I agree with you. Yet, a similar conclusion may be made about non Maghrebi dialects too, between the sub-groups.



> To get back on the list I'm sure hanout is widespread outside of Maghreb countries same for loubia, delle3 may come from Arabic "dhalla3" rib, karmous probably from karma ( fig tree in NA, but vine tree in Arabic), degla is a variety but may be used for all dates in general like tamra.



Thank you for those information but I'm not really convinced by ضلع.



> If you come to children vocabulary and farming Berber words are quite a lot, but you're right in basic language they are few, for Turkish the borrowed words may be different from a country to an other.



True, children related vocabulary contains many Berber words. About farming, too but I don't know it well (I never lived in the Maghreb to be honest , just a month per year).



> A Jordanian I don't know but an Algerian could have got it , the verb yechti means "to like/to love" in Eastern Algeria, what a surprise to see it in a Yemeni sentence !



You may find much more surprises if you read about Eastern dialects, especially those we aren't exposed to through media . I knew an Algerian who use this verb too (from Eastern Algeria). It is not surprising, the dialects we speak didn't come from the sky nor have been created in North Africa but had been brought from somewhere (some say Najd, some Hijaz, other, Yemen) where some people used to talk this way (or at least, something close to it  because of course, some modifications may have occured across centuries in the Maghreb). The same goes for Egypt and you may find many similarities between some Yemeni dialects and Northern Egyptian dialects (ج pronounced g, عايز etc).

As for what concerns Algeria's and non Maghrebi dialects' vocabulary similarities, you may find وشو/وشي/وش (the interrogative word) used as well in Najdi and most bedouin dialects across Arabia and the Levant, مليح, used in the Levant, Iraq and Yemen (pronounced منيح in Lebanon/Syria), زين used in bedouin dialects (Levant, Iraq, Arabia and Egypt), كاين/ما كاينش used in Iraq/Kuwait under the form أكو/ماكو (both are derived from كان/يكون), غدوة used in Yemen (as well as by my classmate), حوت with the meaning "fish" in Southern Arabia and Sudan (and الله أعلم where else), my favourite expression found across the Maghreb فيسع  is also used in Yemen, قصعة is used in Egypt and Yemen (in Yemen, it means "plate" and in Southern Egypt too), the expression كما used a lot in the Maghreb is also used in Yemen, the verb بغى/يبغي used across Arabia, the word دربوكة in Yemen, the word هكة in Yemen (هكذا), the word بزبوز (tap) is used in the Gulf as well as in Yemen, the word ذزي/ذراري in Najdi, etc. This is what I have in mind right now.



Aloulu said:


> I have not been exposed alot to Algerian or Moroccan Arabic and always noticed that Eastern Algerian Arabic differs quite alot from Western Algerian. The last one being more difficult for me.



That's normal, Eastern Algerian is closer to Tunisian and the accent is different.



> But this expression of" achti achouf saqlek"... I would not be sure what it means although having a general guess what it could mean. To show you the difference even from someone speaking Tunisian compared to apparently Eastern Algerian. One of the reasons is also that i have been less exposed to it due having grown up outside Tunisia and not familiar alot with for example Algerian music.



Again, that show how exposure is important and that even between areas close with each other, you may have differences. I was born in France and always lived in France yet I'm exposed the most to Palestinian and Egyptian dialects (and I have no problem in general to speak with Algerians, and Tunisians). It doesn't go without clashes and issues and misunderstandings but the more we're exposed, the more we're able to understand (and it comes more or less quickly depending on the person).



> We would say "n7eb nshouf wildek/awlaadek".



There are many ways to say this in the Maghreb,
I would say نبغي نشوف أولادك but some other may say
نحب, نشتي, نبي, نريد, for "to want"
عيالك, الذراري, for "your children" or "the children".


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## Hemza

Besbes said:


> Indeed it is, I'm not a specialist of Eastern dialects to say how many families of dialects there are, but at least Maghreb dialects are one undoubtedly.



Of course Maghreb group is one family of dialects but in the "East" (from a Western point of view) there are also many families and not "one Eastern block".



> It's a common mistake made by non Maghrebi speakers to consider words they don't know as non Arabic word, actually the basic vocabulary of NA dialects is more than 90% of Arabic origin.



Indeed, it is a widespread mistake . People instead of questioning their knowledge of Arabic, prefer to throw the stone on non well known/understood dialects (yet Yemeni and most Gulf dialects escape this since they're located in Arabia) and Maghrebi themselves often end to think that most words they use aren't Arabic since not heard in most media or in Modern Standard Arabic and prefer to use words coming from other dialects which only serve to strengthen non Maghrebis' beliefs (and we end in awkward situations where some Maghrebis switch to a kind of broken Egyptian or a broken Lebanese dialect  )

The same happens in France where some French people tend to consider Canadian French as a different language because they ignore that most of their expressions are actually old French expressions (mostly Western French dialects I think) not used anymore in France (at least by youth).

Ps: nothing wrong with trying to speak other's dialects in order to be understood but it's very funny because the accent doesn't always match


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