# my son and she (her)



## Brausa

Guys, i am really new to this forum, and i looked before everywhere, but could not find, i have an english doubt, it's pretty basic...but really got me

"my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"

Thanks
Gracias


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## aloofsocialite

Brausa said:


> Guys, I am really new to this forum, and I looked before everywhere beforehand, but could not find an answer. I have an English doubt. It's pretty basic... but it's really got me.
> 
> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"
> 
> Thanks
> Gracias



Hi!
An interesting question.  My first thought was that the second one was the correct option, but once I thought it over, I'm not sure.  The second option is the way it would be commonly said in everyday speech, but I think it actually isn't grammatically correct.

I think you would say "She and my son met each other."  In this case, for it to be grammatically correct, you need to place the other person before "your son" in the sentence.  This is similar to:

"Me and Jane went to the movies last night." Not correct, but commonly said,
and
"Jane and I went to the movies last night." 
but
"I and Jane went to the movies last night," is never correct. 

The first one is said very often, but is not grammatically correct.  The second one is the most correct option.
My mother used to yell at me when I was a kid when I would start sentences with "Me and..."

Anyways, I hope that helps!


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## duvija

This is similar to the 'mirror' sentences ("John and Mary saw themselves in the mirror". Does this mean that each of them saw just him/herself? or each other? Or both?

Why does aloofsocialite believe that the use of 'her' in that sentence isn't grammatically correct? if it is so commonly used?

And what about leaving out 'each other'? Mi son and X met (at the movies) (last night).
It calls for new information, and 'each other' would be redundant.


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## aloofsocialite

duvija said:


> Why does aloofsocialite believe that the use of 'her' in that sentence isn't grammatically correct? if it is so commonly used?



Because in everyday speech we often times use a ton of structures that are grammatically incorrect, but have become ingrained usages.  

In all honesty I don't know for certain that "my son and her..." is incorrect, it's just an impression.  I use that exact construction all the time.  As a native-speaker, I'm not stuck on being grammatically correct all the time, since it would be annoying to be policing a lifetime of habits constantly.  

However, I would say at least as many people use constructions like:

"Me and Joe..." grammatically incorrect

as 

"Joe and I..." correct

and also probably more people say things like

"It isn't him," which is more common, yet not technically correct

rather than

"It isn't he," which is grammatically correct, but is so seldom used that it sounds off to a lot of people (me included).


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## elianecanspeak

Brausa said:


> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"



Welcome to the forum.  I hope we will continue to hear from you.

You can always break the sentence down to see what makes sense:
*My son* met someone.
and 
*She* met someone.
*They* (she and my son) met each other.

Notice , too, how it sounds a little better if the pronoun comes first:
"*She* and my son" _as opposed to_ "My son and *she"*.

So another way to check is to switch the position of the noun and the pronoun.


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## aloofsocialite

Hi elianecanspeak!
You've corroborated my beliefs and my earlier explanation, but do you know the technical reason why it wouldn't be "my son and her"?  I can't quite put my finger on the reason why, other than it just sounds wrong.


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## aloofsocialite

Hi nazha1024!
I'm not entirely clear what you're getting at.  I guess my doubt was about the English grammar surrounding the use of the pronoun "her" in "my son and her", since "her" is not always considered to be a possessive pronoun in English.  It is also considered to be the "objective case" of "she".  Also, I'm sorry to disagree, but "my son" translates as "él" and not "ello".  "Ello" is the neuter personal pronoun.  

Thanks!


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## aloofsocialite

nazha1024,
I think I get it!  Thank you!


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## horsewishr

aloofsocialite said:


> Hi elianecanspeak!
> You've corroborated my beliefs and my earlier explanation, but do you know the technical reason why it wouldn't be "my son and her"?  I can't quite put my finger on the reason why, other than it just sounds wrong.





> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"



"She" is a subject pronoun.  "Her" is an object pronoun.

Since "My son and she" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence, you have to use the SUBJECT PRONOUN, "she."  

You wound never say "her met them."  So you can't say "My son and her met each other."

And elianecanspeak is right.  It's better to say "she and my son."


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## duvija

horsewishr said:


> "She" is a subject pronoun. "Her" is an object pronoun.
> 
> Since "My son and she" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence, you have to use the SUBJECT PRONOUN, "she."
> ---
> 
> That's a perfect explanation for Standard English - the one nobody speaks. All the examples with 'I' or 'He/She', etc. sound really stilted. At least in linguistics you learn how a language is actually spoken (as in 'please, listen to the radio, and how people speak when they call in'). The use of the subject pronoun in a case like this, has almost disappeared.
> Of course, grammar always accept the changes long after they happened.


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## horsewishr

Personally, I would NEVER say "My son and her met each other."  But I don't say "I seen this guy yesterday" or "I ain't got no money" either.  Lots of people do, but it will never be correct.


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## duvija

horsewishr said:


> Personally, I would NEVER say "My son and her met each other." But I don't say "I seen this guy yesterday" or "I ain't got no money" either. Lots of people do, but it will never be correct.


 
I think that with the "I ain't" you're losing it... 
And the word 'correct' is a little bit too strong. 'Standard' is milder. And there is no way to know what the standard will be in a few years/centuries.


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## elianecanspeak

duvija said:


> horsewishr said:
> 
> 
> 
> "She" is a subject pronoun. "Her" is an object pronoun.
> 
> Since "My son and she" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence, you have to use the SUBJECT PRONOUN, "she."
> ---
> That's a perfect explanation for Standard English - the one nobody speaks. All the examples with 'I' or 'He/She', etc. sound really stilted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> duvija -- Are you more comfortable with "She and my son are going . . ."?  I don't know that it is any kind of grammar rule, but to me it does not sound stilted when the pronoun goes first.
> 
> Re linguistics: I think we need to value both prescriptive and descriptive linguistics.  For foreign language learners it is important to know the standard, because you need a starting place for nuancing your conversation to an appropriate level for the group with which you are interacting.  In an immersion situation this becomes clear more quickly and may just seem intuitive.  Some people do speak standard English, and in some business, social, and academic settings it is basic.  To say "Hey man, what's happenin' " when you are introduced to your future boss could create some problems. Similarly, "Please complete the enclosed survey and return it to Sharon and I" does raise hackles  and cause those who equate grammar usage with intelligence to cringe and change their opinion about the abilities of the sender of the memo.  (And I myself prefer descriptive linguistics -- much more fascinating.)
Click to expand...


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## duvija

100% right


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## Corintio44

My son and she.

"My son and her" is gramatically incorrect because "her" is an indirect object and possessive pronoun. One must use a subject pronoun. She and my son also is acceptable in my opinon.


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## FromPA

duvija said:


> horsewishr said:
> 
> 
> 
> "She" is a subject pronoun. "Her" is an object pronoun.
> 
> Since "My son and she" are the SUBJECTS of the sentence, you have to use the SUBJECT PRONOUN, "she."
> ---
> 
> That's a perfect explanation for Standard English - the one nobody speaks. All the examples with 'I' or 'He/She', etc. sound really stilted. At least in linguistics you learn how a language is actually spoken (as in 'please, listen to the radio, and how people speak when they call in'). The use of the subject pronoun in a case like this, has almost disappeared.
> Of course, grammar always accept the changes long after they happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard English is what educated people speak every day.  I would never, ever use an object pronoun as the subject of a sentence.  It sounds incredibly bad.  That's the kind of grammatical error you would expect from a child.  Please don't misinform people by telling them that this is acceptable English.
Click to expand...


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## Corintio44

I agree.  I hear errors in English more often than standard English and it drives me crazy.

He don't like it. (correct = He doesn't like it.)
I've never went there. (correct = I've never gone there.)
I seen it. (correct = I saw it.)
Do you want to go with her and I? (correct = Do you want to go with her and me.)
Him and me went to the movies. (correct = He and I went to the movies.)
She sings good. (She sings well.)

Don't base your language skills on what other native-speakers say.  Many of them slaughter the language.  Learn to speak correctly and then teach others.

I


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## elirlandes

The answer is - "She and my son met." 

A few points:

1) You cannot use "her" anywhere in this sentance. Not even people with bad English grammar can make a construct using "her".

2) "She" will always come first. Again, you will not find anyone who says "My son and she".

3) If there is no other object (i.e. they did not meet somebody else) then the "each other" is superflouos. Some people would say "She and my son met each other", but it would seem more natural to me to say "she and my son met". If there is ambiguity because of context, then somebody might ask "Who did they meet?" and you would answer "They met each other" to clarify.
To illustrate... *My wife and I met many years ago*... you would not say, "my wife and I met _each other_ many years ago."


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## Sebastian11

Brausa said:


> Guys, i am really new to this forum, and i looked before everywhere, but could not find, i have an english doubt, it's pretty basic...but really got me
> 
> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"
> 
> Thanks
> Gracias


How not to mix the subjective (Nominative) and the objective case.
Subjective: I, you, he, she, it, we, they, who 
Objective: Me, you, him, her, it, us, them, whom

Rules: The subjective case carries out the action of the verb.
Pronouns in the objective case receive the action of the verb. The objective pronoun is also the object of a preposition.

Examples: Between you and me (both pronouns are object of "between").
She and my son (he) met recently.
He gave her a present.


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## duvija

Don't base your language skills on what other native-speakers say. 

I[/QUOTE]


This is one of the most interesting sentences I've read all day.  Really? I'm trying to find a scenario for it.

- I would like to learn a language. What's the best way?
- Oh, it's proven. Total immersion. 
- Cool
- Just "Don't base your language skills on what other native-speakers say"
- ??? Others? as opposed to ...???


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## Sebastian11

Brausa said:


> Guys, i am really new to this forum, and i looked before everywhere, but could not find, i have an english doubt, it's pretty basic...but really got me
> 
> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"
> 
> Thanks
> Gracias


How not to mix the subjective (nominative) and objective case.

Subjective: I, you, he, she, it, we, they, who
Objective:   me, you, him, her, it, us, them, whom

Rules: The subjective case carries out the action of the verb.
          The objective case receives the action of the verb.
          The objective prounouns are also the objects of  prepositions.
Examples: Between you and me, both pronouns are objective because they are objects of the preposition "between".
She met my son (he) recently.
He gave her a present.  
To whom it may concern. (Whom is the object of the preposition "to").


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## elirlandes

Sebastian11 said:


> She met my son (he) (*him*) recently.


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## Sebastian11

I stand corrected.
What I meant to say was "She and my son" met recently.
Thank you for the correction.


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## Corintio44

My point:  just because a native speaker says something, it doesn't mean it's correct:

In English, many native speakers say:

He don't like it.
I seen it.
I've never went there.

Make sure you learn the right way by every means:  speaking with all types of native-speakers, reading grammar books, dictionaries, etc...

Just because a native-speaker says it, it doesn't make it right.  Verify!!!


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## elianecanspeak

Corintio44 said:


> In English, many native speakers say:
> 
> He don't like it.
> I seen it.
> I've never went there.
> 
> Just because a native-speaker says it, it doesn't make it right.  Verify!!!



Quierría destacar que estes tres ejemplos son de habladores de un dialecto de inglés no estandar. (Corintio44 lo insinua, pero tal vez no sea claro  al estudiante del nivel principiante.)


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## Corintio44

Duvija:

Seguramente no me expliqué adecuadamente cuando dije "Don't base your language skills on what other native-speakers say."

Lo que quería decir es que no hay que imitar a ciegas a los hablantes nativos, pues hasta los hablantes nativos cometen errores. Muchos norteamericanos dicen: "him and me went to the the store." Dicha frase es muy incorrecta y es importante consultar con los diccionarios, los libros de gramática, y con otros hablantes nativos para comprobar. Si no, puede correr el riesgo de aprender mal. Un angloparlante quizás le diga que es correcto decir "him and me went to the store." Por eso, hay que comprobarlo. 

Usted también preguntó cómo se puede aprender un idioma. Mi respuesta: utilizando todos los recursos disponibles:

Hablando con hablantes nativos
Estudiando los libros de gramática
Leyendo todo tipo de libros (en voz alta al tiempo de grabarse la voz)
Escuchando música
Viendo televisión y películas (repitiendo las frases)
Cantando
Aprendiendo de memoria los trabaleguas, los poemas, etcétera.
Pensando en el idioma
Hablando solo (contando algo al tiempo de grabarse la voz)
Interpretando
Traduciendo

La lista no se acaba. Mi argumento: no hay que imitar "a ciegas" a los hablantes nativos. Estos cometen errores también. En lugar de eso, cuente con todos los recursos disponibles.

Espero que haya aclarado mi comentario.

Gracias.


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## duvija

De acuerdo. Pero los 'errores' de los hablantes pueden no ser errores, sino cambios en el idioma . Por supuesto tenemos que aprender el standard, pero que algo sea 'standard' NO lo hace legítimo. Los libros de gramática tienen que ser re-escritos cada tanto. (Años de estudio de lingüística me permiten decir esto).


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## elianecanspeak

elirlandes said:


> To illustrate... *My wife and I met many years ago*... you would not say, "my wife and I met _each other_ many years ago."



"We met each other" is a very common (though less elegant) usage in American English.


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## Heredianista

elirlandes said:


> The answer is - "She and my son met."
> 
> A few points:
> 
> 1) You cannot use "her" anywhere in this sentance. Not even people with bad English grammar can make a construct using "her".
> 
> 2) "She" will always come first. Again, you will not find anyone who says "My son and she".
> 
> 3) If there is no other object (i.e. they did not meet somebody else) then the "each other" is superflouos. Some people would say "She and my son met each other", but it would seem more natural to me to say "she and my son met". If there is ambiguity because of context, then somebody might ask "Who did they meet?" and you would answer "They met each other" to clarify.
> To illustrate... *My wife and I met many years ago*... you would not say, "my wife and I met _each other_ many years ago."




Why wouldn't you say "my wife and I met _each other_ many years ago"?


"My wife and I met _each other_ many years ago at a festival in France."


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## Heredianista

elianecanspeak said:


> Welcome to the forum.  I hope we will continue to hear from you.
> 
> You can always break the sentence down to see what makes sense:
> *My son* met someone.
> and
> *She* met someone.
> *They* (she and my son) met each other.
> 
> Notice , too, how it sounds a little better if the pronoun comes first:
> "*She* and my son" _as opposed to_ "My son and *she"*.
> 
> So another way to check is to switch the position of the noun and the pronoun.



This is the easiest way to determine the answer to your question, Brausa. 

In your example: 

"my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"

just remove "my son" and compare:

"she met" vs. "her met"

"Jane and I/me went to the movies" ->

"I went" vs. "me went"

etc.


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## elianecanspeak

Re "we met (each other): I started a new thread in English only. If the question of the redundancy intrigues you, please join.


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## elirlandes

Heredianista said:


> Why wouldn't you say "my wife and I met _each other_ many years ago"?
> 
> 
> "My wife and I met _each other_ many years ago at a festival in France."



Implicit in the idea of "my wife and I met each other" is that :
1) I met my wife, and
2) My wife met me.
...but, it would not be possible for my wife to meet me, without me meeting her. It is already a mutual act. Therefore, "my wife and I met each other" is a tautology.


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## Heredianista

elirlandes said:


> Implicit in the idea of "my wife and I met each other" is that :
> 1) I met my wife, and
> 2) My wife met me.
> ...but, it would not be possible for my wife to meet me, without me meeting her. It is already a mutual act. Therefore, "my wife and I met each other" is a tautology.




You're right. 

Unless it's used to distinguish from meeting (together) someone else. Right?


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## elirlandes

Heredianista said:


> You're right.
> 
> Unless it's used to distinguish from meeting (together) someone else. Right?



If (together) we are meeting someone else, there is an object for the verb "to meet" and the verb is transitive.
Where there is no object, the verb acts intransitively, and does not require a distinction to be made - it is implicit that these are the two people who meet.


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## FromPA

duvija said:


> De acuerdo. Pero los 'errores' de los hablantes pueden no ser errores, sino cambios en el idioma . Por supuesto tenemos que aprender el standard, pero que algo sea 'standard' NO lo hace legítimo. Los libros de gramática tienen que ser re-escritos cada tanto. (Años de estudio de lingüística me permiten decir esto).


 
Or the "errors" could simply be ignorance of the standard due to lack of proper education.  The way you speak reveals somthing about your level of education.  I'm curious, if a non-native deviates from the standard, is that an error or just a change in the language?


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## Corintio44

Good point "FromPa!"


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## duvija

FromPA said:


> I'm curious, if a non-native deviates from the standard, is that an error or just a change in the language?


 
Of course, non-native differences are very likely 'errors'. The problem is when you listen to natives. And when the non-natives listen to the same natives.
Needless to ask, but: are we discussing here spoken or written language? They are clearly different. Kinda 'formal/informal', if you want, with some overlap.


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## elianecanspeak

FromPA said:


> Or the "errors" could simply be ignorance of the standard due to lack of proper education.  The way you speak reveals somthing about your level of education.  I'm curious, if a non-native deviates from the standard, is that an error or just a change in the language?



It depends on what the non-native is trying to achieve, and in whose judgment it is an error. 

If the non-native speaker wanted to learn to speak standard English and work for an international company, transgressing the norms would be an error.

An adolescent who lives in an urban hip-hop environment might want to conform to the language norms of his or her peer group.  Deviating from _peer group _norms would then be an error to the adolescent.

It is all a question of where we want to fit in.  Is it considered an error to use a standard Indian English (a recognized dialect of English with its own standard) term that is obscure to American or British speakers an error?

Also, language is *always* in transition.  There is the question of when an "error" becomes standard practice and when former standard practice becomes obsolete.


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## FromPA

If an individual chooses to use substandard English, that individual choice doesn't convert his usage to standard English.  If I choose to act rudely when I hang around with rude friends, my behavior is still rude regardless of the fact that I'm behaving that way to fit in with my friends.  Some future generation may find my behavior charming, but for now I'm still rude.


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## duvija

elianecanspeak said:


> It depends on what the non-native is trying to achieve, and in whose judgment it is an error.
> 
> If the non-native speaker wanted to learn to speak standard English and work for an international company, transgressing the norms would be an error.
> 
> An adolescent who lives in an urban hip-hop environment might want to conform to the language norms of his or her peer group. Deviating from _peer group _norms would then be an error to the adolescent.
> 
> It is all a question of where we want to fit in. Is it considered an error to use a standard Indian English (a recognized dialect of English with its own standard) term that is obscure to American or British speakers an error?
> 
> Also, language is *always* in transition. There is the question of when an "error" becomes standard practice and when former standard practice becomes obsolete.


----- 

Good! I don't know why sometimes is so hard for people to accept the idea of 'language change'.  Of course, we always have to check for register, colloquialisms,  regionalisms, etc. but from here to call it 'error', there is a long step. 
My kids could deal with Spanish, but they didn't know exactly when to use 'vos/usted', but this problem is paralinguistic. Is it an 'error' to use 'vos' with your old next-door neighbor? It depends.


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## Corintio44

There are errors that are commonly recognized as errors in current language by native-speakers such as "no sabo" instead of "no sé" and there are also other grammatical errors such as "lo traducí" instead of "lo traduje" which have become widespread and perhaps will one day become accepted by authorities.

For example, in English, many native-speakers say, "She sings good" instead of "She sings well. However, the first is grammatically incorrect. We must have a standard. Yes, it is true that the standard changes, but for the time being it is incorrect to do something "good."

Sometimes using correct grammar sounds pretentious to some people. For example the following phrase is very correct:

With whom are you going?

Most people say "Who are you going with?"

I have always learned that ending a sentence with a preposition is incorrect grammar, however, this way of speaking has become widespread. Nonetheless, I do not consider the second example grammatically correct.

Yes, language is continually evolving. However, you surely correct your child when he or she says "no sabo" instead of "no sé" or "I done it" instead of "I did it." At least it is hoped. Why the correction? Because, there are current grammar standards. Of course, there is a continuum. Although, I prefer to say "I am well" instead of "I am good" I do not make a big deal out of the latter choice. However, I do often inform people of their error when using a verb incorrectly. Many people use the past participle incorrectly (have drank instead of have drunk / have went instead of have gone). Although these forms are widespread, they are by no means correct, at least at this moment in time. Same goes with saying "he ponido" instead of "he puesto." There is no doubt that the first is incorrect.

No one disagrees with the fact that language changes. What is correct now may become completely strange sounding later. For example, Which this ring I thee wed.

We don't put the word "thee" or "you" before the verb in modern English. We have preserved this specific phrase in English despite its archaic grammatical structure, but saying "I you marry is grammatically incorrect now." Nevertheless, we should not dismiss current errors just because language changes.


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## duvija

Corintio44 said:


> Which whom are you going?
> 
> Most people say "Who are you going in with?"
> 
> I have always learned that ending a sentence with a preposition is incorrect grammar, however, this way of speaking has become widespread. Nonetheless, I do not consider the second example grammatically correct.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I hope you meant:
> With whom are you going?
> Who are you going with? (without the 'in')
> 
> I just have a question. What do you mean by 'I do not consider the second example grammatically correct'? I mean, who is affected by your opinion? do you teach ESL?
> 
> What's your standing in few/less? 'Few' is disappearing so fast, it's almost gone, even in the written language.


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## Corintio44

Of course I meant:  With whom are you going?  It was a typo.

I obviously think it's okay to say:  Who are you going with?

Nonetheless, English teachers correct their students' papers when they use prepositions at the end informing them that it is grammatically incorrect.  When teaching ESL, I prefer to teach many possibilities:

I am going to go to the store.
I'm going to go to the store.
I'm gonna go to the store.

At any rate, it was interesting discussing this topic.

Thanks


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## Spug

duvija said:


> Corintio44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Few' is disappearing so fast, it's almost gone, even in the written language.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This really needs some context.
> 
> Consider the following example: "A few of us decided to go to the bar."
> 
> Are you suggesting that the more common usage today is, "A less of us decided to go to the bar."?
> 
> Or... "...very few truly understand..." Do you think anybody would ever say, "...very less truly understand..."
> 
> _Few_ is in no imminent danger of disappearing from standard English - neither spoken nor written.
> 
> Un saludo.
Click to expand...


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## Corintio44

Spug: It looks like Corinitio44 had said that comment, however, it was not him. It's kind of confusing.  It was a quote from Duvija. Maybe you can quote by just typing what was said.  

Thank you


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## Corintio44

I agree with Spug that the word few is not in any imminent danger of disappearing.  How did Duvija come to that conclusion?


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## elianecanspeak

FromPA said:


> If an individual chooses to use substandard English, that individual choice doesn't convert his usage to standard English.  If I choose to act rudely when I hang around with rude friends, my behavior is still rude regardless of the fact that I'm behaving that way to fit in with my friends.  Some future generation may find my behavior charming, but for now I'm still rude.



I agree that the alternative dialect is non-standard English.  I would not call it "sub-standard" however, because that seems to attach an inherent values to various dialects.  The dialects that become standard often become standard by chance (Dante and Gutenberg).  

I am also unsure about the amount of choice that is available.  Most people learn to speak the way their families speak. If they are taught standard grammar at school and used it at home and in the community, the families and communities may see it as rejection, and the child acting superior to the parent or community members; it might end up a choice between your family and community and "standard" speech.   

My other concern is the parallel made between rudeness and non-standard English.  It could convey the idea that non-standard speakers are less good, trustworthy, kind, polite, etc., which is obviously not the case.

I never find rudeness charming, but I do find it to be in a very different category from particular dialects.

This is a separate question from whether standard the standard should be taught.  (And I agree that it should.) I just do not feel that anyone should be judged or devalued as a person (or an intelligent person) because their grammar deviates from the norm.


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## Corintio44

Good point:  Elianecanspeak.


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## duvija

Corintio44 said:


> I agree with Spug that the word few is not in any imminent danger of disappearing. How did Duvija come to that conclusion?


 
I was talking about the place where 'fewer/less' are used. (Did I say 'few'? I meant 'fewer'. Sorry).
The context is normally "there are ...  than ...  (Ye olde 'if you can count'em is 'fewer', if not is 'less').  
Even in the news (I hope you consider that, 'standard, RP, the queen's English') they use only 'there are less ...


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## ampurdan

MODERATOR NOTE:

Please, stay on topic and deal with the question of the first post of this thread:



> Guys, i am really new to this forum, and i looked before everywhere, but  could not find, i have an english doubt, it's pretty basic...but really  got me
> 
> "my son and (she) met each other" or "my son and (her) met each other"
> 
> Thanks
> Gracias


Thank you all.


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