# כי נקל לגמל לעבר דרך נקב המחט



## rushalaim

כ' נקל לגמל לעבר דרך נקב המחט

I suppose, this is the ancient oriental widespread saying. Originally it was Aramean. Does anybody have any thoughts? Maybe arabic-speaking guys?


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## arbelyoni

It is a verse from the New Testament (Lucas 18:25):
כִּי נָקֵל לַגָּמָל עֲבֹר בְּתוֹךְ־נֶקֶב הַמַּחַט מִבּוֹא עָשִׁיר אֶל־מַלְכוּת הָאֱלֹהִים (Delitzsch's translation)


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## origumi

Similar expressions appear in the Gemara (Aramaic):
* בבא מציעא ל"ח ב says: דלמא מפומבדיתא את, דמעיילין פילא בקופא דמחטא? = are you from פומבדיתא (today's Falluja in Iraq), where they can insert an elephant through the needle's eye?
* ברכות נ"ה ב says: לא מחוו ליה לאינש לא דקלא דדהבא ולא פילא דעייל בקופא דמחטא = (it makes no sense to) show to a person neither a golden palm tree nor an elephant inserted through the needle's eye.

So I guess the NT also reflects an existing expression.


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## rushalaim

arbelyoni said:


> It is a verse from the New Testament (Lucas 18:25):
> כִּי נָקֵל לַגָּמָל עֲבֹר בְּתוֹךְ־נֶקֶב הַמַּחַט מִבּוֹא עָשִׁיר אֶל־מַלְכוּת הָאֱלֹהִים (Delitzsch's translation)


I knew that. But when that human-being told this expression to crowd he might presume that this widespread saying will be understood with everybody. That means this expression is ancient and was known long before that human-being.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Similar expressions appear in the Gemara (Aramaic):
> * בבא מציעא ל"ח ב says: דלמא מפומבדיתא את, דמעיילין פילא בקופא דמחטא? = are you from פומבדיתא (today's Falluja in Iraq), where they can insert an elephant through the needle's eye?
> * ברכות נ"ה ב says: לא מחוו ליה לאינש לא דקלא דדהבא ולא פילא דעייל בקופא דמחטא = (it makes no sense to) show to a person neither a golden palm tree nor an elephant inserted through the needle's eye.
> 
> So I guess the NT also reflects an existing expression.


It's interesting! This was in the Gmarah!? I doubt about "elephant" or "palm-tree". I guess, if this is an Aramean expression therefore here is a connection with an Aramean alefbet where "tet"-letter has the meaning of "needle-eye".


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> I doubt about "elephant" or "palm-tree".


What's the doubt? This is the text.


> I guess, if this is an Aramean expression therefore here is a connection with an Aramean alefbet where "tet"-letter has the meaning of "needle-eye".


Tet means the eye of a needle? Historically letter qof is the eye of a needle. This is apparent in the ideograph of Q - a thread goes through the eye.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> What's the doubt? This is the text.
> 
> Tet means the eye of a needle? Historically letter qof is the eye of a needle. This is apparent in the ideograph of Q - a thread goes through the eye.


Right, "qof". If to imagine to insert "gimmel" into "qof" it's impossible to do. I think this is a kind of nation's joke (even with sexual sense maybe), no?


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## airelibre

origumi said:


> What's the doubt? This is the text.
> 
> Tet means the eye of a needle? Historically letter qof is the eye of a needle. This is apparent in the ideograph of Q - a thread goes through the eye.



I thought qof was a monkey with its tail hanging down. This meaning is preserved in modern Hebrew: קוף = monkey.

edit: according to Wikipedia, it's not agreed upon:

The origin of qoph is uncertain. It is usually suggested to have originally depicted either a sewing needle, specifically the eye of a needle (Hebrew קוף, means "hole"), or the back of a head and neck (qāf in Arabic meant "nape").[1] According to an older suggestion, it may also have been a picture of a monkey and its tail.[2]


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## origumi

"Monkey" (or ape) is improbable, as explained here: http://www.balashon.com/2007/01/kuf.html.


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## airelibre

rushalaim said:


> Right, "qof". If to imagine to insert "gimmel" into "qof" it's impossible to do. I think this is a kind of nation's joke (even with sexual sense maybe), no?



I think you're looking into it too much.



origumi said:


> "Monkey" (or ape) is improbable, as explained here: http://www.balashon.com/2007/01/kuf.html.




Aww, I liked that interpretation. Since there's good evidence against it though, I don't mind conceding that it's not the actual explanation for the letter.


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## rushalaim

airelibre said:


> I think you're looking into it too much.


Why not? I heard a saying of modern hebrew where "nun" represents a male organ. Maybe in ancient times it was the same with "gimel"?


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## airelibre

And you believe it? Sorry to be dismissive before I've even seen the argument for it, but it's just a letter. The original Phoenician letters almost certainly represented actual things but their only function is to represent sounds. Also, the Hebrew and English alphabets are simply borrowed from Phoenician, with no underlying meanings intended. 
Note also that the "Hebrew alphabet" is not actually Hebrew, it's an Aramaic transliteration basically. There never was an alphabet just for Hebrew, before Aramaic, the paleo-Hebrew script was used, which is almost identical to the Phoenician's script.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> I heard a saying of modern hebrew where "nun" represents a male organ.


Such claim requires a reference. Otherwise it's meaningless. And I'm doubtful whether a reference can be found.


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## arielipi

i wonder where you get your stuff airlibre.
Modern hebrew alphabet letters are borrowed from the ashuri alphabet.
each letter's pronunciation is a word.


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## airelibre

arielipi said:


> i wonder where you get your stuff airlibre.
> Modern hebrew alphabet letters are borrowed from the ashuri alphabet.
> each letter's pronunciation is a word.



Ashuri alphabet *is* aramaic.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Such claim requires a reference. Otherwise it's meaningless. And I'm doubtful whether a reference can be found.


You gave an example of theme's with an "elephant". An elephant has a trunk. I think in this case it also presents sexual meaning: elephant's trunk and needle's hole.

About "nun":נחש​


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## rushalaim

airelibre said:


> Ashuri alphabet *is* aramaic.


There are several versions of this idea. And huge argue among the scientists. 
I think Aramaic don't have letters at all! Once it adopt Phoenican alefbet later it used Hebrew alefbet. Because it's just oral language of Jews (and the whole ancient Middle East). But when it needs to write a note using Aramaic were used Hebrew ("ashuri") letters.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> You gave an example of theme's with an "elephant". An elephant has a trunk. I think in this case it also presents sexual meaning: elephant's trunk and needle's hole.


A camel has a hump. According to the dictionaries hump is "_Vulgar Slang  _The act or an instance of having sexual intercourse". Do you think that Lucas had some kind of sexual obsession? Such phallic (or any other farfetched) ideas need more beef than "I heard a saying of modern Hebrew".


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> A camel has a hump. According to the dictionaries hump is "_Vulgar Slang  _The act or an instance of having sexual intercourse". Do you think that Lucas had some kind of sexual obsession? Such phallic (or any other farfetched) ideas need more beef than "I heard a saying of modern Hebrew".


You cannot see this saying because of Lucas. First of all this saying is euphemism, I think. Lucas cannot say frankly. Lucas even haven't see that man who said this saying and heard nothing himself! Secondly this saying is in Matt.19:24. Formly it was written in Aramaic. Later it was written ancient Greek. But this all is insignificant!

The fact is this is the ancient Aramaic saying among simpletons common people! The sense of the saying is "impossibility to do or to be".


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## airelibre

rushalaim said:


> The fact is this is the ancient Aramaic saying among simpletons common people! The sense of the saying is "impossibility to do or to be".



Exactly, so why bring sex into it?


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## rushalaim

airelibre said:


> Exactly, so why bring sex into it?


A camel and hole. An elephant and hole. How can you explain this?


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## arielipi

What the hell do you want rushalaim? if you want our opinion than here it is: you talk rubbish.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> A camel and hole. An elephant and hole. How can you explain this?


"Hole" does not automatically imply feminine sex organ. "Elephant", "camel", "snake" do not automatically imply masculine sex organ. Such hypothesis requires strengthening, away beyond subjective intuition.


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## rushalaim

arielipi said:


> What the hell do you want rushalaim?


I just ask the Aramaic variant of the saying and when it was used usually. 


> if you want our opinion than here it is: you talk rubbish.


"Our"? How many of you?


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> "Hole" does not automatically imply feminine sex organ. "Elephant", "camel", "snake" do not automatically imply masculine sex organ. Such hypothesis requires strengthening, away beyond subjective intuition.


Right! But when these words are used in one whole expression it means something, no?


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## arielipi

God, i believe youve been given the answer already on the first page in the first comment!
There is *no* correlation to sex in any way at all.

just like saying out of the blue means out of sex (blue = porn)


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> Right! But when these words are used in one whole expression it means something, no?


An elephant / camel and the eye of a needle? Doesn't sound too sexy to me. It requires more than reasonable amount of imagination.

And again, if you find any robust (and acceptable by others) support in the text or its cultural, historical, lingual, social, contextual background - this may change the picture.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> An elephant / camel and the eye of a needle? Doesn't sound too sexy to me. It requires more than reasonable amount of imagination.
> 
> And again, if you find any robust (and acceptable by others) support in the text or its cultural, historical, lingual, social, contextual background - this may change the picture.


OK, I saw in Talmud that the word נקב​ means "_the organs of extremities, urinary organ"._


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## Albert Schlef

rushalaim said:


> I think in this case it also presents sexual meaning



You yourself admit that the sense of the saying is "impossibility to do or to be". Are you insinuating that sexual intercourse is an "impossibility"?


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## rushalaim

Albert Schlef said:


> You yourself admit that the sense of the saying is "impossibility to do or to be". Are you insinuating that sexual intercourse is an "impossibility"?


It's impossible to make sex into "urinary organ" because it is narrow. I assume that phrase tells us about impossibility to go through because of narrowness of entrance and a richman cannot be in the future to come because of his greediness. כי נקל לגמל לעבר דרך נקב המחט


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