# Hindi: safar/yaatraa



## albondiga

Hi everyone, 

8 mahine ke bad is forum meN vapas lauT aayaa, aur khushii ki baat yeh hai ki ab hindi/urdu ke bare meN zyaadaa aur charchaa hai... (hope that made sense...) anyway, meraa pehlaa savaal bahut relevant hai mere liye, so here goes:

Is there a difference between a <safar> and a <yaatraa>?  When would  each these be used?  I get the impression that yaatraa is often used for a Hindu religious pilgrimage, so I guess it would also be used for, say, a Christian or Navajo or Australian aboriginal religious pilgrimage.  Would yaatraa be better used for anything with a specific destination, but not for random wandering?  For someone travelling around a country without one specific destination, would safar be the better word?  Are there other such words for travels that I'm missing but that might be better in certain contexts?

And as an extension, what about "traveller"? <musaafir> is apparently derived from safar, and I've also encountered <paryaTak> and <raahgiir> in print, though I don't know if these are used colloquially.  And the dictionary also has <yaatrii>, obviously derived from yaatraa, and <paathik>...  I'm very confused as to when to use which in daily speech.

And what about business trips?

Thanks for any help on this!


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## BP.

I think _yaatra_ in Hindi literally means journey (or visit) but for some of us (at least where I live) it conjures up the image of a religious pilgrim. Same for _ziyaarat_ in Urdu.
Also _yaatri_ == _zaa-ir_, the pilgrim.


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## Faylasoof

The word safar (سفر ) comes from the Arabic verb safara (سَفَرَ ) = to travel, go around. But _yaatraa_, as I have understood it, is more to do with pilgrimage performed by Hindus to their holy sites. So it is equivalent to the English word _pilgrimage_. Platts (1884), however originally defined _yaatraa_ both in this specific term (of performing a pilgrimage), but also as travelling about/ moving around. What I’m not sure is whether one could use still it generally for any pilgrimage performed by anyone, i.e. non-Hindus visiting their own holy sites - I suppose one – or indeed for any journey.

_{I see PG has already given an answer, so mine should be seen in this light as far as __yaatraa is concerned__}_

The word _safar_ has a more general meaning of _travelling_ but if you want to say that someone is gone on a tour / gone sightseeing / on business trip, then there are specific words and expressions you can use.  

Let me summarise everything:  

_yaatraa_ = pilgrimage = ziyaarat karnaa (for holy sites – can be used generally regardless of religious persuasion. Can even be used for non-religious visits!). [Muslims of course have a special pilgrimage called ‘Hajj’.]

_yaatree_ = participant of a pilgrimage = =  zaa’ir(sing- زائر ) , zuwwaar (pl- زُوّار) [Haajee (sing -  حاجی), Hujjaaj (pl-  حُجّاج).]
 _yaatree_ =  participant of march / campaign etc. = muhim joo  (مُہم جو ). 

_safar_سفر  = to travel generally (may or may not be with a specific purpose). A traveller is a musaafir (مسافر  ) – from the Arabic verb _saafara_ (سَافَرَ ). In modern terminology it also means _passenger_.  A fellow traveller is a _hamsafar_ (ہم سفر ).

To go on tour = _siyaaHat karna_  (سیاحت كرنا ) and a tourist = _siyyaaH _(سیّاح ) 
                       = sayr karnaa  (سیر كرنا ) / sayr par jaanaa (سیر پر جانا ) / ghoomne phirne jaanaa (گھومنے پھرنے جانا  ) = To go sightseeing.

_raahgeer _(راہ گیر ) = wayfarer , traveller [not commonly used]

paryaTak ?

For business /work-related trips, we usually say:  daura karnaa دورہ كرنا  /  daure par jaanaa دورہ پر جانا .


I’ve also slightly modified your original statement as follows:

8 mahine ke bad is forum meN vapas lauT aayaa, aur khushii ki baat yeh hai keh ab hindi/urdu ka aur charchaa ho gayaa hai... meraa pehlaa savaal bahut ahim hai mere liye

Best wishes.


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## panjabigator

A pilgrimage in Hindi is a <tiirath yaatraa> and a pilgrim is a <tiirath yaatri>, but I still associate the word <yaatraa> with pilgrimage.  Still, I believe that <yaatraa> and <safar> (and <yaatri> with <musaafir>) are perfect synonyms.  

BP and Faylasoof, what do you call Umrah then?  A <ziyaarat> or is it something special?


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## Faylasoof

I see, so they are synonymous! Good to know as I always assumed that _yaatraa _is normally considered to be something religious, but from what you say, it doesn't have to be. 

An Umrah is called a lesser Hajj - fewer rituals ,shorter and can be performed at anytime of the year. But when performing the big Hajj or the Umrah you can still perform the 'ziyaarat' if you visit the tomb of the Prophet or those of his family / companions in Madina or elsewhere at the time. 

As you perhaps already know that a 'ziyaarat' can be performed at anytime and at the graves of any you consider blessed. There are many Sufis in Indo-Pak whose shrines receive _zuwwaar_ in huge numbers daily, e.g. Nizamuddin in Delhi and Sheikh Chisti in Ajmer. There are also sites in Iraq, Iran and Syria where you also see pilgrims = _zuwwaar_ all thru' the year.

... and 

_Amaa.n BP MiaN_! Sorry! I meant to give you credit for getting in there before me - the underlined sentence in my first post- and not our friend PG, who came a bit later.


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## Illuminatus

<Yatra> is journey, and does not imply pilgrimage.

We use <safar> much more, but <yatra> is used too. 

<Yatree> is a traveler. <Yatreegan kripaya dhyaan dei.n> is a standard Railway Station announcement


And yeah, _Failasoof_, I will need to correct your correction!

... aur khushii ki baat yeh hai kehki ab hindi/urdu ka ki aur charchaa ho gayaa hai gayee hai (but _rahee hai _is 100 times better)... meraa pehlaa savaal bahut ahim hai mere liye...

Charchaa is feminine, and in Hindi, the correct form is _ki_ not _keh_.


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## BP.

Falsafi saahab nobody gives two hoots about taking credit for our replies! The fact that albondiga had his/er problem sorted out suffices. And, we're all here to learn.

Illum's right, this is a Hindi thread. But taking the liberty of using an Urdu word, I too would like to correct your correction: relevant should be _bar maHal_ not _ahim_. But the original poster did say "hindi/urdu" so its not really off the road.


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## Faylasoof

Illuminatus said:


> And yeah, _Failasoof_, I will need to correct your correction!
> 
> ... aur khushii ki baat yeh hai kehki ab hindi/urdu ka ki aur charchaa ho gayaa hai gayee hai (but _rahee hai _is 100 times better)... meraa pehlaa savaal bahut ahim hai mere liye...
> 
> Charchaa is feminine, and in Hindi, the correct form is _ki_ not _keh_.



   Illuminatus,

I have looked up Platts' Dictionary of Hindi, Urdu and English and he gives _charchaa_ as MASCULINE! We use it in Urdu too, a language that you may be familiar with, I assume. Traditionally, in both Lucknow and Delhi it was treated as masculine. So its transsexual identity seems a later phenomenon, perhaps brought about the same people who use words like _aatash baaz_, a pyrotechnician, for a terrorist!

  … and as you ought to know, _ki _is used to make a grammatical feminine oblique, in both Urdu and Hindi. So using _ki_ for _keh_ is just grammatically incorrect. I know many do this...and who am I to say. I’m just an <Urduphone>.


  BP,

  How would you describe this sentence?

_maine abhi abhi  bahut  baRi gaaRi dekhi_

  Is this Hindi or Urdu?

  We need to remember that there is a common speech form for both and as far as this thread is concerned, just because someone labelled it as Hindi doesn’t mean I cannot recognise words used in both Urdu and Hindi. Words like _safar, musaafir, raahgeer ._ 

  You have perfect freedom to agree / disagree with anyone you like, but surely you do recognize the above words. They are not Hindi, so the thread itself is mislabelled. 
  .                  
  As far as your use of _bar maHal_ is concerned instead of _ahim_, well I beg to differ. The former is just too grand to be used in this context. I’d still use the latter. 

I'm flattered that people are so eager to correct my corrections but perhaps there is more to a language than meets the eye. Besides, I was merely trying to help but it seems that perhaps I might have stepped on a few toes.


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## BP.

Good lord, must've been a long day there!

If you hear vernacular Hindi, _keh_ seems to be absent. Maybe it existed a while ago, but Hindi appears to have evolved to supplant it with _ki_. It was awkward listening to in the beginning but I learnt not to object. Different language, different word. Maybe its simply down to a different/miss -reading of the script. Example: even when _nuqaat_ are omitted in _Devnagri_ some people read q correctly but most don't.

"
_maine abhi abhi  bahut  baRi gaaRi dekhi_
   Is this Hindi or Urdu?
"

This specific example exploits common vocabulary, there's no point trying to classify it.

I'd agree the ساءل asked about both Hindi and Urdu words, but many people don't know which words are traceable to Urdu since they ARE used by Hindiphones in order to be comprehensible to a wider listener base. Many Hindiphones are oblivious of the fact that some of these words aren't actually Hindi, like the first poster, and can't really be blamed.

Aziizi, _barmahal_ is a frequently used word in speech, maybe not in all sections of the society but still you can't say you haven't heard it in conversation. I'm fairly confident of that. 'Correcting your correction' isn't the objective for any of us, but settling for second-best shouldn't be either. Plus I'm sure it added to the تنٌوع and some of them learnt a new word.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Good lord, must've been a long day there!



That is funny coming from you!



			
				If you hear vernacular Hindi said:
			
		

> keh[/i] seems to be absent.



Yes, I know. It is called dumming down. Happens a lot. True for Urdu as well. Lot of dumming down these days.  



			
				
"
  [I said:
			
		

> maine abhi abhi  bahut  baRi gaaRi dekhi[/i]
> Is this Hindi or Urdu?
> "
> 
> This specific example exploits common vocabulary, there's no point trying to classify it.



Precisely my point. The post started with a common vocabualry,but you said: "Illum's right, this is a Hindi thread". Hence this example. Nothing more.



			
				 Aziizi said:
			
		

> barmahal[/i] is a frequently used word in speech, maybe not in all sections of the society but still you can't say you haven't heard it in conversation.



Of course I've heard it. But that is not the point I was making. Here is what I said: "_As far as your *use of bar maHal* is concerned instead of __ahim, well I beg to differ. The former *is just*__* too grand to be used in this context. *I’d still use the latter_."



			
				   but settling for second-best shouldn't be either. [/quote said:
			
		

> Second best? I don't think that comes into it. In this context, _bar maHal_ is simply just too pompous and so inappropriate, my friend. My humble and frank opinion.


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## Illuminatus

I'll not get into sparring, so, just two small points.

1. To my native years, charchaa being used as masculine word simply sounded wrong. You may say this is because I've probably heard it that way all these years, but that's how it is.

2. In several years of Hindi education, I've never seen Ke के being used in place of ki for meaning _that.

_The post title is *Hindi: safar/yaatraa*. Albondigamentioned Hindi/Urdu in his sentence, that's all.


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## panjabigator

I don't think Hindi's choice of <ki> for the Urdu <keh> is at all dum*b*ing down.  It's not the feminine in this case either; it's a short i.


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## albondiga

Thanks to all for the help on the different words for travelling! And sorry for the late reply, but abhii dakshin amrika meN _ghoom rahaa hooN_ , isliye har roz internet kaa istemaal nahiiN kartaa hooN.

(and maybe someone should open a new thread to settle the ¨charchaa¨ charchaa...  )


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## xjm

I figure it is probably better to post my question about these exact words in this old thread than to open a new one, so that others can find it as easily as I did.  

So, there are four terms I see:
yaatraa - trip, has religious connotations for some (looks like Urdu speakers mostly have this impression of it)
safar - travel generally, considered Urdu but recognized by Hindi speakers
siyaaHat - tour of the sort tourists do
daura - used for business trips and maybe delivery routes?

Which would you prefer to use for a pleasure drive/ride/etc. around your hometown or in the country?

Which would make most sense to use for a camping trip, where one goes somewhere in the country for a few days or weeks and then returns home?

Edit: I don't wish to cause any debates about what is Hindi or Urdu, just to learn which words are natural to use.


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## Faylasoof

xjm said:


> …Which would you prefer to use for a pleasure drive/ride/etc. around your hometown or in the country?


 There are many ways to express this idea but the ones we always use involve these verbs:

sayr karnaa / par jaanaa / lagaanaa
[where the diphthong <ay> sounds almost like the <ey> of the word _eye_>.
g-hoomne jaanaa

To go for a drive would also use these. Additionally, in Urdu we also use <hawaa khorii par jaanaa / ke liye nikalnaa>.


> Which would make most sense to use for a camping trip, where one goes somewhere in the country for a few days or weeks and then returns home?


 We didn’t really have the idea of a camping trip until recently and although the words for camp / camping exist they give a very different idea – not quite of a camping holiday. Words for <camp site>:

پڑاوٴ पड़ाव paRāo
 ڈیرا﻿  Dera
خیمہ گاہ xaymah gaah

But we never use them for a camping trip! Most people use the English term when they precisely mean a trip involving a camp site. Other wise we would use one of the verbs I mention above.

… and you needn’t worry about this:


> Edit: I don't wish to cause any debates about what is Hindi or Urdu, just to learn which words are natural to use.


 These issues have been much discussed in several threads!


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## Cilquiestsuens

Illuminatus said:


> I'll not get into sparring, so, just two small points.
> 
> 1. To my native years, charchaa being used as masculine word simply sounded wrong. You may say this is because I've probably heard it that way all these years, but that's how it is.
> 
> 2. In several years of Hindi education, I've never seen Ke के being used in place of ki for meaning _that._
> 
> The post title is *Hindi: safar/yaatraa*. Albondigamentioned Hindi/Urdu in his sentence, that's all.


 

Just one remark amid this interesting albeit chaotic thread....

*Charchaa* in feminine in Hindi as a *tatsam* borrowing from sanskrit... (plural charcha'ein)

*While it is masculine in Urdu....*


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## bakshink

*चर्चा* स्त्री. [सं.Öचर्च्+णिच्+अङ-टाप्] 1.किसी विषय पर या व्यक्ति के संबंध में होनेवाली बात-चीत। जिक्र। वार्तालाप। 2.बहुत से लोगों में फैली हुई ऐसी बात जिसके संबंध में प्रायः सभी लोग कुछ न कुछ कहते हों। 3.किसी प्रकार का कथन या उल्लेख। 4.विचारपूर्वक किसी बात के सब पक्षों पर होनेवाला विचार। जैसे-आज की गोष्ठी में इन्हीं विषयों पर चर्चा हो सकती है। 5.किवंदती। अफवाह। 6.किसी चीज के ऊपर कोई गाढ़ी चीज पोतना,लगाना या लेपना। लेपन। 7.गाय़त्री रूपा महादेवी। 8.दुर्गा।
  Charcha is feminine in Hindi.
  Charche is the plural for charchaa when it means (5) above hearsay, gossip and when charchaa stands for vaartalaap (discussions) then plural charchaae.n is used. 
  Aaj kal tere mere pyaar ke charche har zabaan par, sab ko maluum hai aur sab ko khabar ho gayii- a popular Hindi song lines but here ‘ke’ has been used with charche and this usage is accepted among all Hindi and Urdu speaking people. Do we agree?
  Yaatraa means travel, journey and as PG has mentioned Pilgrimage is ‘tiirth yaatraa’
  For pleasure trip the word used in Hindi is bhraman (भ्रमण). 

Dauraa is not a Hindi word though but it is used in Hindi for tour (official tour- sarkaarii dauraa).


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Just one remark amid this interesting albeit chaotic thread....


 
There were many chaotic threads at that time, including those in which you and I were involved! Our enthusiasm had got the better of us. We've moved on since then.



> *Charchaa* in feminine in Hindi as a *tatsam* borrowing from sanskrit... (plural charcha'ein)
> 
> *While it is masculine in Urdu....*


 
Yes and the argument was valid from each side since at some point Urdu as a derivative of KhaRiii Bolii got this gender. In fact, in KhaRii Bolii there was some ambiguity about gender for some words anyway. We had threads / a thread about this too, I reacll.

Shall not continue on this as this is off-topic!


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