# bedächtig stille Menschen gehn... (bedächtig)



## Löwenfrau

Hi.
As far as I've learned in my google researches, apparently this word "bedächtig" can have many connotations, from "prudent" and "cautious" to "silent", "calm", "slow". Is that correct? If so, I'm not sure how to read it in this poem by Trakl:

_Ein Brunnen singt. Die Wolken stehn 
Im klaren Blau, die weißen, zarten. 
 Bedächtig stille Menschen gehn 
Am Abend durch den alten Garten._

Trakl often mingles different moods in his poem: something calm can also be melancholic, and even anxious (although this strophe sounds like pure peacefulness, that's not the case with the following strophes - whole poem here:Georg Trakl: Gedichte von Georg Trakl - Text im Projekt Gutenberg). I think that could be the case here, but I'm not sure.

Thank you.


----------



## jedna

Hi Löwenfrau,

Bedächtig, after Duden, means:

_ 1. ohne jede Hast, langsam, gemessen: 
bedächtige Bewegungen; 
etwas bedächtig hinstellen; 
Der Soldat tat einen bedächtigen Schluck (Hilsenrath, Nacht 219). 

2. besonnen, umsichtig, vorsichtig, wohlüberlegt: 
bedächtige Worte; 
Nur zwei Tage später richtet Thomas Mann an den Autor dieses Werks ein wortreiches und bedächtiges Dankschreiben_

Duden Synonyms says:

 1. gemächlich, gemessen, geruhsam, in aller Ruhe, langsam, ruhig, seelenruhig.
 2. aufmerksam, behutsam, besonnen, mit Besonnenheit, mit Umsicht, mit Vorsicht, sorgfältig, überlegt, umsichtig, vorsichtig, wohlüberlegt.

I think you have to choose one of the meanings given under Duden 1. and Duden synonyms 1.
And if I had to make a choice, I would say: _quietly silent people walk._
I found two English translations. They both say: thoughtfully, but I think 'thoughtfully' isn't the right translation for 'bedächtig'; and the idea, I presume, both translators wanted to communicate with 'thoughtfully'' has in a way also already been given by the word 'silent'.
http://www.salzburg.info/bdb02_sehenswertes/trakl_broschuere_salzburg_gedichte_en.pdf
Trakl: Poems

Success! kind regards, jedna


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, "thoughtfully" refers to the meaning "gedankenverloren"/"in Gedanken versunken" which is also found in "bedächtig".

I am not sure about the construction.

"*bedächtig stille Menschen* gehn"
or
"*bedächtig *stille Menschen *gehn*"

Both forms are strange somehow.


"Bedächtig stille Menschen" - this is highly poetic and unusual. 


"Bedächtig gehen stille Menschen" - this is quite common. But in "*bedächtig *stille Menschen *gehn*" it is in conflict with the rule "finit verb at second place". This rule is weakened in poetry however: there are additional inversions possible to the standard. This word order you can find quite often in poetry. I think this is what Trakl meant. And it is what you find in the translation jedna referred to. "Silent people wander thoughtfully". Trakl: Poems
I agree to jedna's proposal, you can select a translation from the synonyms.

Considering dict.cc dictionary :: bedächtig :: German-English translation


> bedächtig: cautious {adj}, thoughtful {adj}, placidly {adv}, deliberately {adv}, measured {adj} [voice, tone], carefully {adv},  careful {adj}, slowly {adv}, slow {adj} {adv}, sedate {adj} [prose], cool {adj}
> 
> bedächtig [Wesen, Bewegung]: deliberate {adj} [careful, slow]



Also "slowly" works, but you miss the thoughts here.
"Deliberate" does not work well in the poem according to my feeling.

My feeling is "langsam, in Gedanken versunken, im Gleichgewicht".


"thoughtfully" fits best.


----------



## bearded

Hi LF
I understand 'bedächtig' here rather as ''in Gedanken versunken'' (and therefore silent). In Italian I would use the adjective _pensieroso _(maybe a cognate language is of help), or the adverb _pensierosamente. _

Cross-posted with Hutschi.


----------



## Hutschi

Is "silent" "in Gedanken versunken"? In this case it works best.
I did not know this.

None of the many translations gives all nuances.

"Silent and thoughtfully"


----------



## bearded

'Silent' is just still, but in the text there are both words ('bedächtig still': one explains the other..).   I agree that ''thoughtfully silent people'' is the meaning.


----------



## Hutschi

So you analyse it this way: "(*bedächtig stille Menschen)* gehn"
contrary to the sources given by Jedna.

It is a possible understanding. And it avoids rule braking of V2 rule.


----------



## bearded

Yes, I tend to agree with the two English translations jedna mentions at the end of #2.  On the other hand, when you wrote 'silent and thoughtfully' you seemed to be on the same line.  In the translation, of course, one has to adjust/decide which one is adverb and which one adjective.


----------



## Demiurg

The translation mentioned above reads


> Silent people wander thoughtfully
> Through the old garden in the evening.



_Stille Menschen gehen bedächtig ..._

i.e. _bedächtig_ belongs to _gehen_, not to _stille_ (=> Hutschi's variant 2). That's also my preferred interpretation.


----------



## Hutschi

I prefer this, too. It was my first reading. But I gave both readings to show the problems of this line.
In the translation you do not have to translate the words but the picture. You see people walking slowly and silent along their paths without a visible goal -- musing and pondering. The tone of the line is slow, as well, and sounds a little bit dark.


----------



## Löwenfrau

Very nice discussion, thank you.
The only trouble is that I have chosen a ryhming translation, respecting metrics, and in this case I'm not managing to fit in two adjectives, but I came to these results:

"men/people with/in calm steps wander...", or "men with silent steps..." Port. "Passeiam homens em calmos passos", "Passeiam homens com silenciosos passos", or "Passeiam homens com passos graves" ("grave" would correspont more to Duden meaning and synonyms 2). I think that by adding "passos" (steps) I somehow compensate te lack of the second adjective, since the combination of "calmos passos" gives a good picture of "Seelenruhigkeit". Any critics?




Hutschi said:


> The tone of the line is slow, as well, and sounds a little bit dark.



Yes, that's what I meant in #1. Trakl can make us think of something calm and dark at the same time...


----------



## jedna

Hi Hutschi and bearded,

When I looked up thoughtfully, I found in the sense of 'bedächtig' it means: prudent:thoughtfully - LEO: Übersetzung im Englisch ⇔ Deutsch Wörterbuch
But as I see, Hutschi, you found another dictionary with more synonyms
My reasons for thinking of 'quietly' were 1. that 'gedankenvoll' was not mentioned in Duden, nor in Duden synonyms, 2. because 'quietly' gives (apart from still, ruhig, geräuschlos, friedvoll), a picture of how the people _move,_ and 3. because the word 'silent', in my opinion, already points out the 'thoughtfulness'. But you both are right: thoughtfully communicates a beautiful atmoshpere, and together with silent the two words intensify each other.


----------



## Löwenfrau

jedna said:


> 2. because 'quietly' gives (apart from still, ruhig, geräuschlos, friedvoll), a picture of how the people _move,_ and 3. because the word 'silent', in my opinion, already points out the 'thoughtfulness'.


That's my feeling too, that's why I think my translation in #11 could work... I understand it is not perfect, but if I can preserve a rhyming, metrified translation by this means, maybe it is worthy...


----------



## jedna

Löwenfrau said:


> "men/people with/in calm steps wander...", or "men with silent steps..."



Hi Löwenfrau,

In your above translation the 'mind-aspect' is missing. It tells (at least for my taste) something about the way how people walk.
But you have to! (regarding the rhyme and rythm-aspects) I would prefer: men with silent steps, even if it doesn't communicate the mind-aspect.
Maybe: men with thoughtful (gedankenvoll/in Gedanken versunken) steps: telling how they walk and how they think/feel, to my opinion closest possible (in your case) to what Trakl wanted to communicate. But, as you said,  it has to fit in your language, in rhyme and metrics too...


----------



## Löwenfrau

jedna said:


> Hi Löwenfrau,
> 
> In your above translation the 'mind-aspect' is missing. It tells (at least for my taste) something about the way how people walk.
> But you have to! (regarding the rhyme and rythm-aspects) I would prefer: men with silent steps, even if it doesn't communicate the mind-aspect.
> Maybe: men with thoughtful (gedankenvoll/in Gedanken versunken) steps: telling how they walk and how they think/feel, to my opinion closest possible (in your case) to what Trakl wanted to communicate. But, as you said,  it has to fit in your language, in rhyme and metrics too...



Thanks for your opinion, jedna.
I will try. Anyway, the translation will be followed by an analisis, so if necessary I can explain the whole of what Trakl wanted to communicate.


----------



## Scholiast

Gruss an alle!

I come only late to this discussion, so apologies all round if I have missed anything vital.

To me (I have occasionally tried to compose English poetry, including "translations" of Goethe, Rilke and others) the keynote of _bedächtig_ in this context is of calm. "In quiet thought..." might convey it  and be metrically suitable. But (sorry again!) I cannot—yet—do Portuguese.

Σ


----------



## Kajjo

1. If _bedächtig_ means _slow, without haste_ I do not see a "denkend" connotation at all. 

2. In this case "sie gehen bedächtig" means they walk with measured steps, slowly, without haste. _Bedächtig_ belongs to gehen. The word order is unusual, but the relation clear.

_Quiet people walk without haste_


----------



## jedna

Hello Kajjo,

That's what I thought too: slowly. But I prefered 'quietly' because this word holds, apart from 'slowly', more meanings, also those which come closer to the atmosphere.


----------



## Löwenfrau

jedna said:


> Hello Kajjo,
> 
> That's what I thought too: slowly. But I prefered 'quietly' because this word holds, apart from 'slowly', more meanings, also those which come closer to the atmosphere.



I agree. "Slowly" is a less complete rendition than "quietly" and "silently".


----------



## Kajjo

Löwenfrau said:


> "Slowly" is a less complete rendition than "quietly" and "silently".


I don't agree.

"stille Menschen" = silent, quiet people -- this fits. You don't want to use the adjective twice?

"bedächtig gehen" = to walk without haste -- where to you get "slient" here?


----------



## Löwenfrau

Kajjo said:


> "bedächtig gehen" = to walk without haste -- where to you get "slient" here?



We are talking about associated ideas. A silent person can easily be imerged in thoughts. I think "slow" can also be associated with that, but a little less evidently. Of course this might be a subjective impression.


Kajjo said:


> "stille Menschen" = silent, quiet people -- this fits. You don't want to use the adjective twice?


I'd like to, I'm just not managing to fit it in the rhyming version yet. If possible, I'll use "thoughtfull" (or an equivalent) too. Time will say.


----------



## jedna

To my opinion walking slowly tells something of the 'technique' and (maybe even) of the (conscious) decision for that kind of moving on. For example: Because the train would arrive only after half an hour, we had all the time, so we walked only slowly towards the station.
Walking quietly tells something of the feeling of calmth, rest, peacefulness that this kind of slow walking (the one in the poem) communicates, especially because in the poem it's evening. All the more to intensify the contrast to the following strophes.


----------



## jedna

Just a thought concerning 'gehen'... Trakl uses 'stehen' for the clouds, and 'gehen' for the people, so: the contrast. Maybe he chose 'gehen' only for rhyme's sake. But if he also wanted to create the contrast, you could consider to use '' sich bewegen' which is still more 'mysterious' than 'walk'.


----------



## Kajjo

Löwenfrau said:


> We are talking about associated ideas. A silent person can easily be imerged in thoughts.


That's true, but "stille Menschen" means "quiet people" and "bedächtig" means "without haste". Both ideas combine well with each other, no doubt. But both ideas are clearly distinct and not the same.


----------



## bearded

Löwenfrau said:


> A silent person can easily be imerged in thoughts



'Bedächtig' means slow, but one cannot deny that originally the word is derived from the root 'dachte/bedachte' ((be)denken). In my opinion, in poetry it may retain its original meaning of thoughtful, and  'silent people walk thoughtfully' (nachdenklich, in Gedanken versunken) is a suitable interpretation. See above Hutschi (and Scholiast's ''in quiet thought'')..


----------



## Löwenfrau

jedna said:


> Maybe he chose 'gehen' only for rhyme's sake.


Yes, that surely is possible. Or he chose "stehen" only for rhyme's sake.


----------



## Hutschi

Das Wort ist in besonders betonter (prominenter) Stelle.
Deshalb denke ich, dass es etwas von seiner Wurzel behalten hat.

Langsam ist natürlich dabei, auch geruhsam. Aber eben auch: besonnen, mit Besonnenheit, mit Umsicht, überlegt.
Und nach meinem GefühL bedachtsam, in Gedanken. Letzteres natürlich im gegebenen Kontext, nicht allgemein.

Stände da: "Er geht langsam und bedächtig die Straße entlang." - dann würde ich es als Duplikation von "langsam" auffassen mit der Konnotation: etwas schwerfällig.


----------



## Löwenfrau

I might have found something: we have in Portuguese the word "divagar", which means at the same time to roam and to be thoughtful. If I say something like "Pessoas quietas, tranquilas divagam..." I manage to insert the "thoughtful" part preserving the rhyme.

EDIT (Crossposted with Hutschi) >  For "etwas schwerfällig" I have the option "Passeiam com passos graves".


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings once more

In my earlier post (# 16) I confess I missed the nuance of _schwerfällig_, so apologies. In English one might have some mileage with "in leaden thought...".

Σ


----------

