# shibboleth



## Maroseika

Shalom.
Does this word - shibbolet - exist in the modern Hebrew and what does it mean? I encountered different versions - ear (herb), flow, deluge.


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## amikama

Yes, it exists - but only in the meaning of "ear (of herb)". The meaning of "flow" is Biblical.


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## Maroseika

amikama said:


> Yes, it exists - but only in the meaning of "ear (of herb)". The meaning of "flow" is Biblical.


But what's the connection between ears and flows? Homonyms?
Anyway, does it mean that the Halaads asked Hanaans about the flow?


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## amikama

Maroseika said:


> But what's the connection between ears and flows? Homonyms?


No connection - they are just homonyms.


> Anyway, does it mean that the Halaads asked Hanaans about the flow?


Who are the Halaads and Hanaans?
Are you referring to the Biblical story about the Shibbolet of Ephraim?


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## tFighterPilot

The word is especially used in Shibolet Shual, which is Oat.


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## Maroseika

amikama said:


> Who are the Halaads and Hanaans?
> Are you referring to the Biblical story about the Shibbolet of Ephraim?


Sure.
But I'm not sure how these peoples are spelled in English.


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## Spectre scolaire

amikama said:
			
		

> Are you referring to the Biblical story about the Shibbolet of Ephraim?


 That’s what _I_ thought!

I think it is written shibboleth in English. 

Does the story boil down to the inability of the _Ephraimites_ to pronounce the correct sibilant? Would it correspond to the inability of the Greeks and the Spaniards to pronounce a [sh]? -sorry, I haven't got the correct IPA sign. Or are we talking about an _emphatic consonant_?
 ​


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## amikama

Spectre scolaire said:


> Does the story boil down to the inability of the _Ephraimites_ to pronounce the correct sibilant?


Yes, exactly. The story is that the judge Japhthah of Gilead was angry over the Ephraimites and ordered to kill them. The people of Japhthah knew that the Ephraimites had the lisp of pronouncing "sh" as "s", so every time they met a stranger they asked him to say "shibboleth". If he pronounced it as "sibboleth", it was clear that he was Ephraimite, and they killed him. 

The point is that the meaning of the word "shibboleth" has no special role in the story - they could choose any word that contains the constant "sh" - _Shabbat_, _shu'al_, _geshem_, etc.


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## Spectre scolaire

I just wonder how a whole group of people, in casu the _Ephraimites_, could have a lisp, which for all intents and purposes means a “speech defect”.  

Is there any evidence pointing towards another dialect of Hebrew, a dialect which had a different phonemic inventory?

Or is the whole story made up in hindsight in order to show a prejudice against some neighbours?
 ​


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## Maroseika

amikama said:


> Yes, exactly. The story is that the judge Japhthah of Gilead was angry over the Ephraimites and ordered to kill them. The people of Japhthah knew that the Ephraimites had the lisp of pronouncing "sh" as "s", so every time they met a stranger they asked him to say "shibboleth". If he pronounced it as "sibboleth", it was clear that he was Ephraimite, and they killed him.
> 
> The point is that the meaning of the word "shibboleth" has no special role in the story - they could choose any word that contains the constant "sh" - _Shabbat_, _shu'al_, _geshem_, etc.


Let me correct you a bit.
Ephraimites got angry on Yaphthah because he has not invited them to the war against Ammonites (sorry, don't know exact writing of this name in English), whom he has defeated (and obviousely plundered) before that. Therefore Ephraimites crossed Jordan and attacked the people of Yakhthah but also were defeated and tried to make sail. However enemy has taken their stand at all the passages across the river, and let go only those who could spell "shibboleth" correct and therefore belonged to Gileads. All others were killed. 
And surely this was not a defect of the Ephraimites that they could not spell "shin" hard enough, but just a feature of their accent.


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## Spectre scolaire

So, this _is_ a proof, would you say, of dialect distinctions in Ancient Hebrew?
​


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## scriptum

Spectre scolaire said:


> So, this _is_ a proof, would you say, of dialect distinctions in Ancient Hebrew?
> 
> ​


Of course not. This is just a macabre story of doubtful authenticity.


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## Maroseika

scriptum said:


> Of course not. This is just a macabre story of doubtful authenticity.


Sure, it's just a tale, but scarcely concocted for no reason; most likely it was based on a well-known accent distinction. Besides, such legends appeared in the different places of the Ancient, world, such as a Greek one, mentioned before.
Just compare with the myth about Iaphthah dauther - even if it has never happenned, it could easily happen.


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