# /k/ > /x/



## Testing1234567

/k/ voiceless velar plosive > /x/ voiceless velar fricative

This change seems to have happened a lot in the Germanic branch of Indo-European languages.

For example:

Proto-Indo-European **kéh₂ro-* (whence Latin *cār*-) > Proto-Germanic* *hōrǭ*/*hōrōn-* /ˈxɔː.rɔ̃ː, ˈxɔː.rɔː.n-/ (> English *whore* with extraneous *w* in spelling)
Proto-Indo-European **kʷis* (whence Latin *quis*) > Proto-Germanic* *hwaz* /xʷɑz/ (> English *who*)

Proto-Germanic **makōn-* /ˈmɑ.kɔː.n-/ (whence English *make*) > Old High German *mahhōn* /max.xoːn/ (> German *machen*)
Proto-Germanic* *kirikǭ*/*kirikōn-* > Old High German *chirihha* /xi.rix.xa/, Old English *ċiriċe* /ˈtʃiritʃe/ (> English *church*)
Do you guys know any example from other languages?


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## arn00b

It occurs in Persian:

*keh₂n- (sing) > xândan (read, recite, sing)
*kwrei (sp?) (pay) > xarîdan (buy)


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## bearded

Testing1234567 said:


> This change seems to have happened a lot in the Germanic branch of Indo-European languages.


 Indeed. It's a phenomenon described by ''Grimm's law'': Grimm's law - Wikipedia.


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## Testing1234567

arn00b said:


> It occurs in Persian:
> 
> *keh₂n- (sing) > xândan (read, recite, sing)
> *kwrei (sp?) (pay) > xarîdan (buy)


This is interesting. Wikipedia says that this occurs in the Iranian languages when *k* is followed by a consonant or original laryngeal, and in Old Irish in intervocalic *k*, such as Proto-Celtic **bekos* > Old Irish *bech* /bʲex/.



bearded said:


> Indeed. It's a phenomenon described by ''Grimm's law'': Grimm's law - Wikipedia.


Thanks for your information, but Grimm's law only describes the changes from Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic, yet my examples above include changes from Proto-Germanic to the Germanic languages.


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## bearded

Testing1234567 said:


> Thanks for your information, but Grimm's law only describes the changes from Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic, yet my examples above include changes from Proto-Germanic to the Germanic languages.


 Please also consider the section 'further changes', as well as the 'examples' in my link.


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## berndf

Testing1234567 said:


> Thanks for your information, but Grimm's law only describes the changes from Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic, yet my examples above include changes from Proto-Germanic to the Germanic languages.


Ther is only one such shift and it applies to Old High German. Grimm called this together with a few related shifts in OHG like _skip>skiff>Schiff _and _appul>aphul>Apfel_ the "second Germanic consonant shift".


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## Testing1234567

berndf said:


> There is only one such shift


According to Wikipedia, Liverpool English speakers pronounce *book* as [bʉːx].


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## Testing1234567

And how can I have forgotten Ancient Greek χ /kʰ/ > Greek χ /x/?


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## berndf

Testing1234567 said:


> According to Wikipedia, Liverpool English speakers pronounce *book* as [bʉːx].


If you include micro-dialects like that then absolutely everything can happen.


Testing1234567 said:


> And how can I have forgotten Ancient Greek χ /kʰ/ > Greek χ /x/?


That is a completely different shift. We are talking here about /k/>/x/. This is /kʰ/>/x/-/ç/. Since Ancient Greek had phonemic contrast between /k/ and /kʰ/ this difference is important.


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## Testing1234567

berndf said:


> That is a completely different shift. We are talking here about /k/>/x/. This is /kʰ/>/x/-/ç/. Since Ancient Greek had phonemic contrast between /k/ and /kʰ/ this difference is important.


Alright.


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## berndf

Testing1234567 said:


> Old High German *chirihha*


OHG is _kirihha_. The first _k _is not affected by the 2nd Germanic sound shift except in High Alemannic and Highest Alemannic where is shifted to /x/ and some Bavarian-Alemannic transition dialects where it shifted to /kx/.


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## Testing1234567

berndf said:


> OHG is _kirihha_. The first _k _is not affected by the 2nd Germanic sound shift except in High Alemannic and Highest Alemannic where is shifted to /x/ and some Bavarian-Alemannic transition dialects where it shifted to /kx/.


I believe that both _kirihha_ and _chirihha_ are attested, although German indeed did not inherit the word-initial /(k)x/.


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## berndf

Testing1234567 said:


> I believe that both _kirihha_ and _chirihha_ are attested, although German indeed did not inherit the word-initial /(k)x/.


As I said, this is a dialectal variant. The affrications /t/>/ts/ and /k/>kx/ occurred only in the extreme south but while /t/>/ts/ (as in English _tin_ vs. German _Zinn_) finally spread all over the High German dialect continuum, the affrication /k/>/kx/ remained confined to a relatively small dialect area.


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## Delvo

It's happening again/still now. I hear it multiple times every day in America (more often where an aspirated /kʰ/ is expected than a plain /k/). But almost nobody talks about it because it's inconsistent (the plosive is still preserved as a plosive much more often than not) and there's no generally acknowledged concept of such a fricative in English.


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## origumi

Similar phenomenon in Aramaic and Hebrew about 2000-2500 years ago, for all of b-g-d-k-p-t that may become bh-gh-dh-kh-ph-th depending on their surrounding.


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## Testing1234567

origumi said:


> Similar phenomenon in Aramaic and Hebrew about 2400 years ago, for all of b-g-d-k-p-t, depending on their surrounding.


Could you cite examples?


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## berndf

Testing1234567 said:


> Could you cite examples?


It is a consistent allophonic split. Word initial, geminated and after a closed syllable = plosive, all other cases fricative. In modern Israeli Hebrew this split is only active for b-k-p and is reversed for g-d-t.


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## fdb

arn00b said:


> It occurs in Persian:



Iranian x is normally either from IE *kh or from IE *k before a consonant, e.g. Avestan xratu- (New Persian xirad) versus Sanskrit kratu- “spiritual power”. Otherwise, IE *k is Iranian k, with a very small number of exceptions.


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