# rág és rágcsál



## jazyk

Jó napot kívánok!

"Rág" és "rágcsál" között külonbséget láttok? Például _rágja a körmét_ és _rágcsálja a kórmét, csontot rág _és _csontot rágcsál_ között. 

Köszönöm.


----------



## Zsanna

Hello jazyk,

It is one of those things that cannot be defined exactly. I have just read what our one language dictionary (Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár) writes about them (I don't like it too much but) I'll translate that first:
*rág* - chopping up into little pieces continuously or mash into a pulp with teeth or another organ having a similar role (= to chew)
(this is the one out of the 4 meanings that concerns us here)
*rácsál* - chew slowly, biting off little pieces one at a time

I see why "continuously" is mentioned in connection with the first even if it was a bit surprising to see it mentioned - it is the type of action one does (in the mouth) with the food before (and in order to be able to) swallowing it - there is nothing more (special) to it.
Meanwhile, in the case of second verb, already the aim of the whole action may be slightly different: the aim is not simply "to eat something" but maybe just to "chew for the sake of chewing" (except when it is done by an animal whose official name is "rágcsáló" = rodents - like rats, mice, etc. - who eat "normally" in that way). 
What is called "slow" in the definition above is a bit misleading in my reading because it doesn't _look like_ slow (on the contrary), although in terms of quantity, it may turn out that less is eaten like that... (But the bit about biting off a little bit at a time is OK, although somehow it is still not that that seems to be the most important about it... But the way the whole thing happens...)

To go back to your examples:
I'd say that the normal expression is _rágja a körmét_ and not _rácsálja_. (One would _rág_ one's food - properly or not -, a chewing gum, something that needs cheewing before being swallowed.)
A person could _rágcsál_ a biscuit (savouring it, enjoying it) or, alternatively, some food that he doesn't really want to eat. 
There could be some sort of a game playing behind it or absent mindedness (thinking of something and not noticing that a bite has been chewn for minutes) or nervousness (where the accent is again on what is on the person's mind as opposed actually chewing an swallowing the food properly) or pretending to be interested in the food but trying to "force down" as little as possible by using the technique of _rágcsál _(where the accent is on what's going on in the mouth and not to swallow anything in the end).
For me the second example would indicate that you do that because you enjoy eating your fingernails or because you'd be obliged to chew on them and would want to satify the person who obliges you to do it by pretending to... (Nonsense.)
However, you can hear more and more Hungarians use the language in a very sloppy way so I certainly cannot say (anymore) that no Hungarian would say such a thing.

With your other example, it is easier to see the difference:
When a dog csontot rág, he is busy eating whatever he can get out of it. When he csontot rágcsál, however, he is not hungry anymore (necessairly), he is chewing on it out of "fun", with less intensity maybe noticing the world a bit more around himself - that can be just a pleasant passtime for him. 
Although it could be other things, too. (Like a different way of eating the bone, not "continuously" but going at it bit by bit because he cannot get it in his mouth and chews on at one end at a time.)

But I think now I'd better give you and others a chance to say their word, too.


----------



## levendula

interesting that rágcsál can refer both to the act of savouring with joy but also with a suffering obligation. So it might not be easy to understand the usage of it.  
I would differ them by the explanation that rág is simply the act of chewing and the csál-ending gives the word a duration or mostly a repetitive sense.


----------



## Zsanna

No, I don't think you could say "suffering", what I meant was more like the way you eat something just to show that you know that it should be eaten but you express it at the same time that there is no joy involved in doing so. (Can be accompanied by a bit of sulking, "willy-nilly"-ness.)
The duration is another aspect that I don't think would be typical for rágcsál. It can be long or short but the point is that the action istelf consists of smaller (but "sharper") units of movements ("staccato"-like) as opposed to the almost uniform type of movent chewing involves ("parlando"). 
Or - if you prefer a more image-like analogy: 
rág - involves mouth movements like a cow or a camel meanwhile 
rágcsál - involves those of a mouse or a squirrel would produce when eating a small piece of something.


----------



## hayamburuk

Think about "rágcsáló" (rodent)

in my mind rág is slower than rágcsál - imagine a cow chewing the grass and a squirrel nibbling at a nut...

Ah! Perhaps that's it!

Rág - Chew
Rágcsál - Nibble

Hmm?


----------



## Zsanna

Hello hayamburuk,
Yes, _nibble_ could be a good equivalent to _rágcsál_ - say in about 80% of the cases (as I feel it). 
Another idea for a translation: to munch. (Especially because it refers to an action you do once the food is already inside the mouth rather than "going at it" several times.)


----------



## Encolpius

And Jazyk's next question could be what the difference is between farag - faragcsál, köhög - köhécsel, nyög - nyögdécsel, szökik - szökdel -szökdécsel.  As you can see -csál/-csél is a simple affix appeared around 1600 and as menitoned before it meant repetitiveness. I personally do not see much difference in meaning but in style. Words with -csál/-csél sound more softly, pleasantly, childish. I wonder if there are similar "softness affixes" in Portuguese /or other languages, Slavic languages sure have/.


----------



## hayamburuk

the suffix for repetitiveness is -gat -get, isn't it? 

mos, mosogat
megy, megyeget

"Mit csinált a pattkány amikor unatkozott? Rágcsálgatott!"

Hmm?


----------



## Encolpius

hayamburuk said:


> the suffix for repetitiveness is -gat -get, isn't it?
> 
> mos, mosogat
> megy, megyeget
> 
> "Mit csinált a pattkány amikor unatkozott? Rágcsálgatott!"
> 
> Hmm?



Yes, it is the most common and most productive suffix for repetitiveness. And rágcsálgat is perfectly OK. There may be other suffixes for repetitiveness as well I can't remember now.


----------



## Zsanna

Enclopius, it is true that a lot of questions could be put of similar nature... but let's face it: it would not be all that surprising as 1) we have an awful lot of different suffixes that can express a lot of different shades of meaning 2) I wouldn't say that a meaning for them is "simple". Yes, it can be simple, if you want to give an answer in one sentence - but it may not answer the original question clearly enough. 
And then there is this other thing: there are suffixes that express the "same" basic meaning, however, they are still used differently and express slightly different things...

But if you meant that there were an awful lot of exchanges about a thing "as simple as that", I tend to agree with you, again, to start with. 
However, everybody has the chance to prove they can do it "shorter"... So let us see how it goes!


----------



## Zsanna

hayamburuk said:


> the suffix for repetitiveness is -gat -get, isn't it?
> 
> mos, mosogat
> megy, megyeget
> 
> "Mit csinált a pattkány amikor unatkozott? Rágcsálgatott!"
> 
> Hmm?


 
Your examples show really well that "-gat/-get" is *not* simply a suffix to indicate that an action is carried out more frequently (although it is called that: gyakorítóképző)!
(E.g. doing the washing up is by no means the same action as washing clothes, only "more often"!)
And the accumulation of the two gyakorítóképző (csál + gat in "rágcsálgatott") shows that there is something more to them than simply indicating an action done more frequently...

P.S. Just for the sake of other learners let me do a little correction in your question:
Mit csinált a patkány, amikor unatkozott?


----------



## Encolpius

Zsanna said:


> Enclopius, it is true that a lot of questions could be put of similar nature... but let's face it: it would not be all that surprising as 1) we have an awful lot of different suffixes that can express a lot of different shades of meaning 2) I wouldn't say that a meaning for them is "simple". Yes, it can be simple, if you want to give an answer in one sentence - but it may not answer the original question clearly enough.
> And then there is this other thing: there are suffixes that express the "same" basic meaning, however, they are still used differently and express slightly different things...
> 
> But if you meant that there were an awful lot of exchanges about a thing "as simple as that", I tend to agree with you, again, to start with.
> However, everybody has the chance to prove they can do it "shorter"... So let us see how it goes!



I think the rág/rágcsál problem is so difficult and complicated that I wanted to point at the fact we can sometimes approach the problem from another point of view which may be more simpler and our brains finish the rest. I am sometimes surprised how I find the correct answer in a foreign language I can't even explain mayself. 
In the conrate examples I can't see much difference. 

Kicsim, ne rágd már megint a körmöd!
Kicsim, ne rágcsáld már megint a körmöd!
Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rágja!
Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rág(i)csálja!
Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rág(i)csálgatja! (this sounds unnatural to me)


----------



## Zsanna

Encolpius said:


> I think the rág/rágcsál problem is so difficult and complicated ...)


I see..., sorry, it wasn't the impression I had.



Encolpius said:


> ....that I wanted to point at the fact we can sometimes approach the problem from another point of view which may be more simpler and our brains finish the rest.)


Why are we waiting then...? 



Encolpius said:


> In the conrate examples I can't see much difference.
> 
> Kicsim, ne rágd már megint a körmöd! - it is an action (= "bad habit") one does when nervous
> Kicsim, ne rágcsáld már megint a körmöd! -nothing to do with the above mentioned habit but means to chew on (without repeating the action of chewing off another piece) an already chewn off bit (maybe just one piece!) for a long time
> Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rágja! - more or less equal to "he is still eating it"
> Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rág(i)csálja! = does not "eat it" properly just pretends to, tries to have goes at it (but doesn't succeed for one reason or another), or doesn't do it "seriously" - at least according to the speaker (it is more difficult to explain in the case of a dog)
> Anyu, Frakk még mindig a csontot rág(i)csálgatja! (this sounds unnatural to me) - yes, it does sound fairly artificial but in an individual usage and at a given time it may be used to indicate how "not seriously at all/willy-nilly..." that dog is chewing on that bone


----------

