# narzędnik czasu



## Encolpius

Hello, there is an interesting instrumental for time in Czech, but I am not sure if it exists in Polish as well. You know that you can reply to the question "when?" with pure instrumental (narzędnik) in Slavic languages (e.g.: jesienią...), is this sentence used / possible in Polish: Filip pracuje tu już *piątym rokiem*.??  That is the literal translation of a Czech sentence. Does it work in Polish, too? Thanks.


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## Thomas1

The sentence you give doesn't work in Polish.


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## Polilotte

You would say "Filip pracuje tu już *piąty rok", or "od pięciu lat".*


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## jasio

Encolpius said:


> Hello, there is an interesting instrumental for time in Czech, but I am not sure if it exists in Polish as well. You know that you can reply to the question "when?" with pure instrumental (narzędnik) in Slavic languages (e.g.: jesienią...), is this sentence used / possible in Polish: Filip pracuje tu już *piątym rokiem*.??  That is the literal translation of a Czech sentence. Does it work in Polish, too? Thanks.



Does "piątym rokiem" indeed respond to the question "when"?  What exactly would it mean in Czech? In Polish the phrase looks more like a responce to 'how long?'.

Indeed, in some cases you can respond to "when" using only instrumental: "nocą" (during the night), "dniem" (during the day, an archaism btw which nowadays is probaly used only in fixed phrases like "nocą i dniem"), "wiosną", "latem", "jesienią", "zimą" (names of seasons), perhaps a few more. 

However with numerals or demonstrative pronouns locativus is used instead, such as in "w drugim tygodniu ciąży, pracy, miesiąca" ('in the second week of pregnancy, work, month'), "w tym miesiącu" ('this month') or genitive ("tego dnia" - 'this day'). 

Also with time units alone locativus is used, although most of the cases it requires some form of time specification, such as "w roku, w którym oglądaliśmy zaćmienie Słońca nad Balatonem" ('in the year, in which we watched an eclipse of the Sun at the Balaton lake')  An exception would probably only be "w tygodniu", which in this context means something like 'during working days'.


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## Thomas1

It's occured to me that our instrumental, when used with nominal groups expressing time, answers the question _Kiedy?_ (When?) and is an adverbial of time: _Pracuje wieczorami._ (He works evenings). I'm not 100% sure this is always the case, but I'm unable to find a counterexample of another case in exactly the same function (maybe someone will). We will use it also to express an adverbial of place: _Szliśmy ulicą._ (We walked down the street.) or of manner: _Płynie żabką._ (He's swimming breaststroke).  

Your example is a bit different. It looks like an adverbial of time order, by which I mean an ordinal nominal group answering the question _Który rok? _(Which year?). What Polilotte suggests, "Filip pracuje tu już _piąty rok_." (Filip works here already the fifth year.), seems to be matching this function in the Polish language. Another possibility using only a nominal group is an adverbial of time length and it answers the question _Jak długo?_ (How long?) -- well, it looks like a specialised version of a time adverbial, but that's not important. You could say, to express the idea you're having in mind: _Filip pracuje tu już pięć lat. _(Filip works here already five years). I believe they both use the accusative.  

PS: the translations are literal and have been provided to show the Polish structures.

EDIT: I've just seen the post by Jasio.


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## Encolpius

Yes, you are right. The proper English question would be "how long". "piątym rokiem" means for 5 years...I meant when as a general particle for time...
The Polish expression "pracuje piąty rok" is interesting as well...let's admit that it does not exist in many languages, I mean using the ordinal number to express "how long"... Thanks.


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## jasio

Encolpius said:


> The proper English  question would be "how long". "piątym rokiem" means for 5 years...



So in Polish it is: 



Polilotte said:


> You would say "Filip pracuje tu już piąty rok", or "od pięciu lat".


or 


Thomas1 said:


> _Filip pracuje tu już pięć lat. _(Filip works here already five years).



However, 



Thomas1 said:


> I believe they both use the accusative.



In fact, with numerals ending with five or more it is genitive, if I am not mistaken, as well as with full tens and ending with one. With numerals ending with 2, 3 and 4 it would be accusative. 




Encolpius said:


> The Polish expression "pracuje piąty rok" is interesting as well...let's  admit that it does not exist in many languages, I mean using the  ordinal number to express "how long"



In fact "pracuje piąty rok" has a slightly different meaning. It means that he has already worked for full four years, and now it's his fifth year in the company.


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## Ben Jamin

Encolpius said:


> Yes, you are right. The proper English question would be "how long". "piątym rokiem" means for 5 years...I meant when as a general particle for time...
> The Polish expression "pracuje piąty rok" is interesting as well...let's admit that it does not exist in many languages, I mean using the ordinal number to express "how long"... Thanks.


Actually the expression "pracuje piąty rok" does not answer the question "how long", it is just a misunderstanding caused by Polish usage. If you want to be strictly precise you should answer "pracuje tu już pięć lat". 
The answer using expression "pracuje piąty rok" is actually not to the point.

The expression "pracuje piąty rok" can be translated literally to English as "it is the fifth year of his work here"*, and answers the question "what is the ordinal number of the year he has been working here", so the use of ordinal numbers is nothing unexpected. 
* This is, of course,  unidiomatic English.


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## Thomas1

Thomas1 said:


> [...]
> Your example is a bit different. It looks like an adverbial of time order, by which I mean an ordinal nominal group answering the question _Który rok? _(Which year?). What Polilotte suggests, "Filip pracuje tu już _piąty rok_." (Filip works here already the fifth year.), seems to be matching this function in the Polish language. Another possibility using only a nominal group is an adverbial of time length and it answers the question _Jak długo?_ (How long?) -- well, it looks like a specialised version of a time adverbial, but that's not important. You could say, to express the idea you're having in mind: _Filip pracuje tu już pięć lat. _(Filip works here already five years). I believe they both use the accusative.
> [...]





jasio said:


> [...] In fact, with numerals ending with five or more it is genitive, if I am not mistaken, as well as with full tens and ending with one. With numerals ending with 2, 3 and 4 it would be accusative. [...]


I meant the two wordings "piąty rok" and "pięć lat" in "Filip pracuje tu już _piąty rok_." and "Filip pracuje tu już _pięć lat._" respectively as a whole. We can clearly see that "wieczorami" in "Pracuje wieczorami." is in the instrumental, but I was hesitating about the case of these two formulae. Their genitive would be "piątego roku" and "pięciu lat" respectively. However, in the forms "piąty rok" and "pięć lat" they can be either in the nominative or accusative. I'd suppose the latter is the case in the sentences "Filip pracuje tu już _piąty rok_." and "Filip pracuje tu już _pięć lat_".


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## Encolpius

To decide if it is nominative or accusative we should try this sentence: Wojna trwa już piątu dekadu *or* piąta dekada...... if that sentence is possible...


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## Thomas1

Thanks for the useful tip, Encolpius. 

The sentence should read: _Wojna trwa już piątą dekadę._ It is indeed in the accusative.


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