# cluere



## dcx97

Hello,

Does "cluere" (present stem: clueo or cluo) mean "to be called" or "to hear/listen"?

Thanks!


----------



## Scholiast

salvete amici!

This from L&S (the more modern _OLD_ has nothing of substance to add or improve on):

*clŭĕo* , ēre (*clŭo* , ĕre, _Aus. Prof. 21_; Att. ap. _Varr. L. L. 5, § 30_Müll.; Prud. ap. *Symm. 2, 585*; _Symm. Ep. 1, 1_; _Mart. Cap. 6, § 571_), v. n. and
*I.*_a._ [root klu-; Sanscr. s)ru, hear; cf. Gr. ἀκροάομαι, κλέος; Lat. laus], like audio, 5., _to hear one_'_s self called in some way_, _to be named_, _called_, _spoken of_, _reputed_, _esteemed_, or _famed in some way_, = dicor (only ante- and post-class.; most freq. in Plaut. and Lucr., but not in Ter.; mostly in mock-heroic style; cf. Lorenz ad *Plaut. Ps. v. 570*); with _pred. nom._: “ut meus victor vir belli clueat,”  *Plaut. Am. 2, 2, 16*; cf. *id. Trin. 2, 2, 33*; _2, 2, 36_.—With abl., etc., _of manner_, or _absol._: “ut Acherunti clueas gloriā,”  *Plaut. Capt. 3, 5, 31*; cf. *id. Trin. 2, 4, 95*: “corona, Per gentes Italas hominum quae clara clueret,”  *Lucr. 1, 120*: “si quod agit, cluet victoriā,”  *Plaut. Poen. 5, 4, 20*: “cluentum fides Quojusmodi clueat,”  *id. Men. 4, 2, 6*: “nam quaecumque cluent,” _every thing that has a name_,  *Lucr. 1, 450*; cf. *id. 1, 481*; *1, 581*; *2, 351*; 2, 525; 2, 791; 3, 207 al.; Att. ap. *Cic. Tusc. 2, 10, 23*.—With _inf._ and _pred. nom._: per gentes esse cluebat omnium miserrimus, Enn. ap. _Non. p. 88, 1_; *Plaut. Bacch. 4, 9, 1*; *Lucr. 4, 53* Lachm. _N. cr.;_cf. also clueor.

This is not to dissuade dcx97 from consulting in this Latin Forum, but he should know that L&S is freely available to access online at the splendid Perseus website organised by Tufts University, Perseus Digital Library.

Σ


----------



## dcx97

Why, thank you!


----------



## Scholiast

de novo, salutem!

I perhaps ought to have added: as L&S note, the verb is 'only ante- and post-class.', i.e. it is not found in Cicero, Caesar, Sallust, Catullus, Virgil, Horace, Ovid &c. But in the light of fairly frequent uses in Lucretius, I think this is not quite accurate. It stinks of a Greek origin (κλύειν = 'to hear'), and we must remember that even in the classical period there were substantial Greek-speaking communities in south Italy and Sicily, and rather as Norman French collided with Anglo-Saxon in mediaeval England, there must have been some linguistic 'contamination'. Lucretius' favour for the verb will have originated from a taste for what sounded 'learned' and 'ancient'.

Σ


----------



## Snodv

Sounds like one of those words which "went underground" in the classical period, not disappearing but not favored by the sophisticated.  It makes me think of _lucta, "_a wrestling or a struggle_," _cited somewhere or other (sorry, memory slips) as "old" Latin, but reappearing in Spanish as _lucha.  _You know Spanish didn't reach into the past to capture this word; it had to be current as the Romance languages were coming about.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete omnes!


Snodv said:


> _lucta, "_a wrestling or a struggle_,"..._reappearing in Spanish as _lucha..._


...and in French as _lutte_. A great many words may have been persistent in archaic or vulgar Latin (and hence left remnants in the Romance legacy) while barely touching the educated literary or epigraphic record of 'classical' Latinity.
Σ


----------



## bearded

Scholiast said:


> ...and in French as _lutte_.


...and in Italian as _lotta._


----------



## Sardokan1.0

...and also in Sardinian as _lutta, _we also use the term _"peléa"_ (from Spanish), as battle, struggle; and the term _"briga"_ as argument, quarrel.


----------



## Scholiast

salvete de novo


Sardokan1.0 said:


> and the term _"briga"_ as argument, quarrel.


Thanks Sardokan. But I was under the impression that this (the stem originally Celtic, cf. Welsh _bri_ = 'power', 'force') was standard, if colloquial, Italian, and not particularly Sardinian.
Σ


----------



## Scholiast

Scholiasta collucubrantibus SPD

How better spend a Sunday afternoon? A little more research (in _OLD_) reveals that the classical stem _luct-_ (in the verb _lucto_/_luctor_ and the noun _luctatio_ = 'wrestle', 'struggle'), connected with Greek λυγίζω, is thoroughly classical, appearing in, among others, Cicero, Virgil, Horace, the Senecas (both), Pliny (the Elder), Tacitus and Juvenal.

Σ


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Scholiast said:


> salvete de novo
> 
> Thanks Sardokan. But I was under the impression that this (the stem originally Celtic, cf. Welsh _bri_ = 'power', 'force') was standard, if colloquial, Italian, and not particularly Sardinian.
> Σ



In Italian the meaning is slightly different, it means "nuisance, annoyance"

Example :

prendersi la briga = prendersi il disturbo

In Sardinian instead "briga" literally means "quarrel, argument"; we also use in Sardinian the verb "brigare" which has two different meanings:  1) to argue 2) to reprimand. Meaning very different from the Italian "brigare" = darsi da fare = to get busy.

Example :

_1) Happo brigadu cun frade meu = I've argued with my brother
2) Happo brigadu a frade meu = I've reprimanded my brother

1) Happo hàppidu una briga cun frade meu = I've had an argument with my brother_


----------



## bearded

Scholiast said:


> Scholiasta collucubrantibus SPD
> How better spend a Sunday afternoon? A little more research (in _OLD_) reveals that the classical stem _luct-_ (in the verb _lucto_/_luctor_ and the noun _luctatio_ = 'wrestle', 'struggle'), connected with Greek λυγίζω, is thoroughly classical, appearing in, among others, Cicero, Virgil, Horace, the Senecas (both), Pliny (the Elder), Tacitus and Juvenal.
> Σ


Hello Scholiast
An Italian Etymologic Dictionary suggests that the Latin stem luct- could also have a different origin, namely in connection with a Sanscrit root beginning with r: rug- (to break) ( (although the Greek connection is more probable - and I saw your thread in the Greek forum): Etimologia : lotta;.

( off-topic: I like your word ''collucubrantibus'' immensely )


----------



## Scholiast

salvete de novo, praesertim bearded (_vis-à-vis_ # 12)

My authority for the putative connexion with Greek λυγίζειν is the _OLD_, _s.v._ 'luctor, -ari', where it is assigned the primary sense of 'to wrestle'. No such link with the Greek word is mentioned by L&S, so I am guessing that it is the fruit of more recent philological scholarship than was available to Lewis and Short.


bearded said:


> a Sanscrit root beginning with r: rug- (to break)


This is of course an ancestor (or at any rate a grand-uncle) of Greek ῥήγνυμι, and of Latin _frangere_ (stem _frag-_/_freg-_/_frac(t)-_).

'I like to drink, and lucubrate my fill...' [Byron]

On Sunday last I was not precisely 'lucubrating' as it means 'to work (or be active) by lamplight', i.e. at night. But many of us do that here.

Σ


----------



## Snodv

In my unfamiliarity with patterns of change among the most ancient tongues, I would have guessed Sanskrit _rug-_ to be more closely related to _rumpere_ than _frangere_.  (Hmm, both of these words have a nasal infix in the present system.)  Is it possible that these very different-seeming Latin words turn out to be cousins?
On relatives of _lucta_, let's not forget to mention English _ineluctable_, the derivative of _luctor_ which describes something one cannot fight his way out of.


----------



## Scholiast

@Snodv (# 14)

_OLD_ states that _rumpere_ (which you rightly say has a nasal infix in the present stem) is related to Sanskrit _rōpayati_, 'to break off', and Gothic _raupjan_. I am tempted to see a link with English 'rip' (= 'tear'), but have not checked that.

So I am sticking with my hypothesis in # 13.

Σ


----------



## bearded

Scholiast said:


> 'lucubrating'


In Italian the word has been retained with the e(x) prefix: _elucubrare, elucubrazione. _But this is of course off topic.
As for the luct- root I,too, think that the connection with lyg-izomai is more plausible than the one with rug- (rhegnymi, brechen, break,frango...).


----------



## Snodv

American Heritage Dictionary has a nice appendix on Indo-European roots. It does connect _rip_ and _rumpere_ with the same root *reup-.


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Curiously the verb "rumpere" in Sardinian means "to break" only in a metaphorical way, it means "to annoy, bother"

Unlike Italian, where the verb "rompere" literally means "to break" and it's also used as synonymous of "to annoy, bother"

While the verb "to break" but also "to cut" is translated in Sardinian as "segare".


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings all


Sardokan1.0 said:


> ...in Sardinian as "segare"


This is clearly > Latin _seco_, _secare_.

Incidentally, Moderator, thank you for not censoring this 'topic-drift': it has been interesting and informative.

Σ


----------



## Snodv

Cf. Spanish, which also voiced the medial consonant: _segar_ "to reap, cut down," and agent noun _segador/a.  _Similar voicing occurred in Latin _segmentum, _whence English_ segment _"a cut piece" contrasting with _fragment _"a broken piece."
Viva la lucha, viva cluere, viva topic-drift!


----------



## Snodv

Also in response to Sardokan concerning _briga_ in Sardinian as "quarrel, argument": it can still mean "trouble, bother" in Italian,  but is cited as meaning "strife" as the origin of English borrowings _brigade _and _brigand._


----------



## Scholiast

salvete de novo!


Snodv said:


> "strife" as the origin of English borrowings _brigade _and _brigand._


Also the 'brig' or 'brigantine', a two-masted, fast and highly manoeuverable, sailing vessel developed and used from the 16th-early 19th centuries AD, mainly as a minor warship, smaller than a (usually three-masted) frigate and with only a single gun-deck, but taking its name originally from Italian _brigante_, in the sense of 'pirate-ship', which is obviously a near cousin of the word 'brigand'.
Σ


----------

