# تسلم  تفلح



## Qureshpor

*تسلم  تفلح*
If you submit, you will be successful.

Is the following also correct?

taslim wa tufliHu*تسلم و تفلح   *


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## إسكندراني

There are other possible meanings for تسلم but since I'm not familiar with the expression I'll leave the floor for the more knowledgeable!


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## cherine

I'm not sure I understand the question myself 

But if you, Qureshpor, are asking about the conditional structure, then the answer is no.

tuslim tafla7 (which should be إن تسلم تفلح ) means if you do this you get that). 
But the structure تسلم وتفلح means you do this and that. No meaning of conditional شَرْطِيَّة here.


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## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question myself
> 
> But if you, Qureshpor, are asking about the conditional structure, then the answer is no.
> 
> tuslim tafla7 (which should be إن تسلم تفلح ) means if you do this you get that).
> But the structure تسلم وتفلح means you do this and that. No meaning of conditional شَرْطِيَّة here.



Thank you. What I had in mind was the the equivalent Arabic for, as for example, in Cowboy films.

"Put your hands up and you'll be safe!"

Here, essentially we have a shart and a jawaab, but connected with an "and".  Similarly, I am enquiring whether it is correct to say

*tuslim wa tufli7u ( The jawaab is in the indicative mood)

Submit and you'll be successful

*I hope I have made myself clear now.


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## rayloom

And why is it tuslim and not tuslimu?


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## ayed

> QURESHPOR
> "Put your hands up and you'll be safe!"


estas.lem taslam
*استسلم تسلم!*


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## Qureshpor

rayloom said:


> And why is it tuslim and not tuslimu?



I will have to start with an apology. It has been a long time since I was last looking at Arabic language and its grammar. Currently I am asking the learned members of this  forum certain questions which I am hoping will clear up the doubts that have remained in my mind concerning this subject

Regarding this thread, my question was totally wrong. What I meant to write was...

*aslim wa tufli7a* (Submit and you will be successful)

My question is this: Is tufliHa correct after the wa. I believe this wa might be the wa of accompaniment.

In the negative, one can have

*laa ta3kuli_samaka wa tashriba_llabana*

(Don't eat fish and drink milk together (at the same time)

So, if aslim wa tufli7a is not correct, my next question was if

*aslim wa tuflihu *

would be correct?


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## cherine

ayed said:


> estas.lem taslam
> *استسلم تسلم*


Good one ya Ayed 


QURESHPOR said:


> Regarding this thread, my question was totally wrong. What I meant to write was...
> 
> *aslim wa tufli7a* (Submit and you will be successful)
> 
> My question is this: Is tufliHa correct after the wa. I believe this wa might be the wa of accompaniment.


My answer is that the use of و is incorrect in the first place.
The English structure "Do this and you get that" is not to be translated litteraly in Arabic. We say "do this get that". If you use the و it will be a simple sequence of imperative verbs. كل واشرب، ذاكر واجتهد ....

Another thing: the و is called a حرف عطف and the word or verb following it always follows the same إعراب of the word or verb preceding it. So, if the و is preceded by a فعل مجزوم then the verb following the "waw" *must* also be مجزوم .



> So, if aslim wa tufli7a is not correct, my next question was if
> 
> *aslim wa tuflihu *
> 
> would be correct?


No. First, because -as I said- the two verbs must have the same i3raab. Second, because the meaning wouldn't be "surrender and you'll be successul", but "surrender and be successful".


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## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> Good one ya Ayed
> 
> My answer is that the use of و is incorrect in the first place.
> The English structure "Do this and you get that" is not to be translated litteraly in Arabic. We say "do this get that". If you use the و it will be a simple sequence of imperative verbs. كل واشرب، ذاكر واجتهد ....
> 
> Another thing: the و is called a حرف عطف and the word or verb following it always follows the same إعراب of the word or verb preceding it. So, if the و is preceded by a فعل مجزوم then the verb following the "waw" *must* also be مجزوم .
> 
> 
> No. First, because -as I said- the two verbs must have the same i3raab. Second, because the meaning wouldn't be "surrender and you'll be successul", but "surrender and be successful".



But tufliHu is not in the imperative mood, it is in the indicative.

Secondly, is this sentence correct..

لاتأ كل السمك و تشرب اللبن where the second verb has a fatHa on the baa?


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## lukebeadgcf

QURESHPOR said:


> *تسلم  تفلح*
> If you submit, you will be successful.
> 
> Is the following also correct?
> 
> taslim wa tufliHu*تسلم و تفلح   *



I remember seeing:

تدرسْ تنجحْ If you study, you will succeed.


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## Josh_

QURESHPOR said:


> *تسلم  تفلح*
> If you submit, you will be successful.
> 
> Is the following also correct?
> 
> taslim wa tufliHu*تسلم و تفلح   *





cherine said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question myself
> 
> But if you, Qureshpor, are asking about the conditional structure, then the answer is no.
> 
> tuslim tafla7 (which should be إن تسلم تفلح ) means if you do this you get that).
> But the structure تسلم وتفلح means you do this and that. No meaning of conditional شَرْطِيَّة here.





lukebeadgcf said:


> I remember seeing:
> 
> تدرسْ تنجحْ If you study, you will succeed.


Yes, I've seen structures like this as well.  I've also seen ادرسْ تنجحْ in which the first verb is an imperative and the second is jussive (mazjuum).  

I think you can create a conditional sentence using two verbs in the mazjuum case without a conditional particle (أداة شرط).  The conditional particle actually acts on the verbs by changing them to the jazm case so perhaps this is a case of إضمار (if that's the right term to use).  The conditional إنْ is مضمرة, but of course still acts on the sentence by changing the verbs to mazjuum.

Perhaps a discussion for another thread.

At any rate, as for Qureshpor's sentence تسلمْ تفلحْ would be correct, but not تسلمْ تفلحُ. Both verbs would need to be mazjuum.



cherine said:


> No. First, because -as I said- the two verbs must have the same i3raab. Second, because the meaning wouldn't be "surrender and you'll be successul", but "surrender and be successful".


As Qureshpor said the second verb is not in the imperative.  But there is also the matter of logical sequence. The actions of these two verbs cannot occur simultaneously, but rather you have to fulfill the action of the first verb in order to fulfill that of the second.  If the first verb occurs in the present, then the second will have to occur in the future. So even though the verb is not explicitly (syntactically) future, it implicitly is.  

As for translation I believe both "surrender and you'll be successful" and "surrender and be successful" are okay.  Even though "be successful" is syntactically imperative it is also a future action (all imperatives are future actions anyway) as per the sequence issue discussed above.


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## Qureshpor

Can anyone please summarise what is correct and what is n't with regard to this topic?

Also, is *لا تأكل السمك وتشرب اللبن (**laa ta3kuli_samaka wa tashriba_llabana) *correct?

Don't eat fish and drink milk together (at the same time

This is, in essence, the negative of 

*اسلم و تفلح* *(aslim wa tufliHa)

Submit and you will be successful
*


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## rayloom

*لا تأكل السمك وتشرب اللبن
تشرب here carries 3 possible moods, each with a differing meaning.

tashrab(i) majzuum, indicates that the waw here is a conjunctional waw...meaning Don't eat fish and don't drink milk.

tashraba, manSuub by واو المعية with an أن مضمرة, means that both actions occur simultaneously. And this waw would only precedes a verb in the case that it's a jawab 6alab (otherwise it's reserved for nouns).
Meaning: Don't eat fish and at the same time drink laban.

tashrabu, marfuu3. Meaning the waw here is "conjucting" a sentence to sentence, not verb to verb. Ultimately meaning: You drink laban and (but) you don't eat fish.

The waw al-ma3iyya is dictated by the meaning of the phrase.
Although 
اسلم وتفلح can occur, but it can't carry the meaning of simultanuity. It has a cause effect relationship, thus you can say:
أسلم تفلح 
aslim tufli7 (majzuum).
or 
أسلم فتفلح
aslim fa-tufli7a (manSuub by the فاء السببية)



As for 
تسلم تفلح
tuslim can not occur as a majzuum just like that in the beginning of a sentence (or context)!
Even if we say there is an omitted أداة شرط (and that can occur), the verb would be in the indicative.
tufli7 can not occur in the majzuum also if there is no أداة شرط, unless it's a jawab.
A jawab is indicated by 3 things:
-imperative
-prohibitive
-question

tuslim tufli7 -->wrong
in tuslim tufli7 --> correct
aslim tufli7 --> correct
laa tuslim tufli7 --> correct
aslim fa-tufli7a--> correct
aslim wa-tufli7a--> grammatically correct, semantically no.

*


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## Qureshpor

*Thank you. I have tried to absorb all that you have written but I still have one or two queries.*



rayloom said:


> *لا تأكل السمك وتشرب اللبن
> تشرب here carries 3 possible moods, each with a differing meaning.
> 
> tashrab(i) majzuum, indicates that the waw here is a conjunctional waw...meaning Don't eat fish and don't drink milk.
> 
> Understood.
> 
> 
> tashraba, manSuub by واو المعية with an أن مضمرة, means that both actions occur simultaneously. And this waw would only precedes a verb in the case that it's a jawab 6alab (otherwise it's reserved for nouns).
> Meaning: Don't eat fish and at the same time drink laban.
> 
> Understood. And based on this, why can't we have the opposite of the sentence? If we can have the original sentence as below,
> 
> **لا تأكل السمك وتشرب اللبن*
> *Do not eat fish and (at the same time) drink milk.
> 
> **كل السمك واشرب **اللبن*
> *
> kuli_samaka wa_shraba_llabana
> 
> Eat fish and (at the same time) drink milk.
> 
> If this is correct, then this would be equivalent to:
> 
> **اسلم و تفلح   *
> *aslim wa-tufli7a*
> *
> tashrabu, marfuu3. Meaning the waw here is "conjucting" a sentence to sentence, not verb to verb. Ultimately meaning: You drink laban and (but) you don't eat fish.
> 
> I presume the sentence is:
> laa ta2kulu_lsamaka wa tashrabu_llabana
> 
> aslim wa-tufli7a--> grammatically correct, semantically no.
> 
> Would it mean exactly the same as:
> 
> aslim tufli7?
> 
> *


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## Qureshpor

Brother Rayloom, could you please help me to tie the remaining loose ends! Please take a look at my last post. I know you and others have helped me no end already. For this I am truly grateful.


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## ayed

*لا تأكل السمك وتشرب اللبن* 
Admonition: Don't eat fish and drink laban(respectively)​ 
*اسلم وتفلح*
It seems to me to be a sort of a conditional request. You won't succeed unless you submit. Here we have a cause and a result:
If you submitted, you would succeed.
In order to succeed, submit firstly.
Submission = = > Success ​ 
At last, I feel it may be conveyed as:
Submit to succeed.​ 
This is what I can think of. ​


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## rayloom

*كل السمك واشرب **اللبن*
*
kuli_samaka wa_shraba_llabana

Eat fish and (at the same time) drink milk.
*
Not correct because waw al-ma3iyyah (with its أن المضمرة) would only affect the imperfect, not the imperative. You can't have a subjunctive imperative.
*
**
I presume the sentence is:
laa ta2kulu_lsamaka wa tashrabu_llabana
*
I meant: laa ta2kuli 's-samaka wa tashrabu 'l-labana
Here tashrabu "you drink" has a suggestive meaning, rather suggesting: drink laban
Don't eat fish, but drink laban.

If it were 
laa ta2kulu 's-samaka wa tashrabu 'l-labana
Then it's quite straight forward, it's not prohibitive.
You don't eat fish and (but) you drink laban.


 *aslim wa-tufli7a--> grammatically correct, semantically no.

Would it mean exactly the same as:

aslim tufli7?
*
No because aslim wa-tufli7a has a semantical problem with it.
It's more of an equivalent to 
aslim fa-tufli7a*
*


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## Qureshpor

rayloom said:


> laa tuslim tufli7 --> correct


How would you translate this please?


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