# Icelandic: nokkrum vinum sínum



## Alxmrphi

Gott kvöld allur

There is a sentence I just cannot understand, I want to know it's structure and what's going on but I'm not sure why I haven't been able to figure it out!

*Christof*: Já, er það? Hvað verður hún gömul?
*Björn*: 27 ára. Hún ætlar að bjóða okkur og* nokkrum vinum sínum* í mat annað kvöld.
*Christof*: Já, flott.

My book gives me the translation of it '_a few friends of hers_' but I'm trying to figure it out, I can understand the rest of it fine.

Nokkrum doesn't appear in any dictionary I've looked in. Is it from* nokkrir*? Ah, I had thought I got it wrong, but in the dictionary it doesn't recognise *nokkrir*, so maybe that's why I had problems..
Ok so *bjóða* needs the stuff after it to be in the dative, so that explains nokkrum I guess.
Is *nokkrir* only used with 'people' ? *How come no dictionary / decliners have this word listed?? *

'vinum', if it is the possessive, (a few of *her* friends) doesn't that mean it requires the definite article? Shouldn't it be 'vinunum' ?
Do you use the definite article with friends? I assumed you did because in Italian (the other language I'm learning) you don't use the article with close family (like Icelandic) but you* do* for friends.. so maybe I'm just transferring rules between languages and maybe you don't use the article with friends, I'm not sure....

Ahh I see now *sínum* means 'her' in the plural dative, I was expecting to see *þeirra*, the genitive plural of *hún* (her), would that be wrong in this case?
Ahh maybe that's why you don't need the article, because it's not that, maybe you would if you used *þeirra*, right?

Ok, if there is anyone that can shed some light / info / an opinion on what I've wrote, tell me if I've got it right or wrong, I'd appreciate it!

Takk fyrir!
- Alex


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## hanne

Hm, it looks like general Scandinavian knowledge is useful right now, so here are my 10 cents...

"Nokkrum" seems to come from "nokkur" (http://www.ismal.hi.is/ob/birta/index.cgi), if that's of any help (it's nogle/några in some other Scandinavian variants). I'd usually translate it as "some" rather than "a few".

"sínum" (Scand. "sin") is an alternative form of his/her/its that we use sometimes, when the owner has been indicated in the same sentence. I don't have a clue what the rules are, perhaps somebody else can explain it , but here's a classic example:
"He took his hat."
Here "his" should be translated with "sin". If it's translated with "hans" it sounds like he took somebody else's hat! I think this goes for your case too. (but as I said, we'll need somebody else to explain why it works like this...)


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## Alxmrphi

Ahh it's from *nokkur* !!
I don't see a difference really between '_some_' and '_a few_', can I ask why you would only use 'some' ?

I also remember reading about something to do with that, the* sinn* thing, I remember it gave an example of where there is some ambiguity in English with this article and that is eliminated in the Scandinavian languages because of the other pronoun, I will definitely go and look into it and come back with (hopefully) an explanation!


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah it looks like if somebody has already been mentioned in a sentence, you use this form, otherwise it will refer to somebody else...



> *T*he forms _hans_, _hennar_ and _þeiirra_ also mean 'his', 'her' and 'their', *but not 'his, her, their own'*! When an _own_ can be included in English one must use the pronoun _sinn_ 'his, her, its, their (own)'
> 
> _Hann drap faður sinn_ = 'He killed his own father'
> _Hann drap faður hans_ = 'He killed his (somebody else's) father')


I see, so she is going to invite her own friends, so it's not _*þeiirra* !!

All clear now! 

I see it has been talked about in Danish here.. and it's called reflexive possessive pronouns
_


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## hanne

Excellent, somebody else had already explained it .
On a side note, some Danish dialects actually don't use the "sin" form at all, so in some areas (western Jutland I think) I believe you're allowed to write "han tog hans hat og gik hans vej" in school. I don't know if this is only up to a certain age or something though - and I don't know if the other languages have such dialects too.

"A few" are fewer than "some" to me - don't know if that's just me. But if "he took a few of the books from the shelf" it would be like 2-4 perhaps, and if "he took some of the books..." he could well have taken 10 or more (anything less than 50% I guess).


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## thegooseking

Alex_Murphy said:


> Yeah it looks like if somebody has already been mentioned in a sentence, you use this form, otherwise it will refer to somebody else...
> 
> I see, so she is going to invite her own friends, so it's not _*þeiirra* !!
> 
> All clear now!
> 
> I see it has been talked about in Danish here.. and it's called reflexive possessive pronouns
> _



It wouldn't be *þeirra* anyway, unless _she_ (not her friends) was more than one person. *Þeirra* _is_ the the genitive plural of *hún*, which is to say it's the genitive of *þær* (and þeir and þau for that matter) which refers to more than one person - that is to say, *þeirra* means *their* (hence the similarity between the Icelandic and English words). If she was inviting someone else's friends, it would, then, be *hennar* - don't pluralise the genitive case just because there is more than one 'owned' thing; only pluralise it if there's more than one 'owner'._

Do_, however, use the plural of the possessive pronoun if there's more than one 'owned' thing (e.g. *sínum* instead of *sínu*, assuming her friends aren't all the same gender).

Note that there are only possessive pronouns for singular people: *minn* ('my'), *þinn* ('your for you-singular'), *sinn* ('his', 'her', 'its'). For plurals 'we', 'you-plural', and 'they' use the appropriate genitive form *okkar*, *ykkar*, and *þeirra* respectively instead. (Okay, so _technically_ there's also *vor*, the possessive pronoun for 'we', but my girlfriend says "the president uses it, but otherwise it's archaic".) You may find *okkar*, *ykkar* and *þeirra* referred to as possessive pronouns in dictionaries, but unlike the other possessive pronouns, they are indeclinable, and are really more correctly called genitive forms of personal pronouns.

I have a feeling I'm not making perfect sense here - is this understandable?


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## Alxmrphi

> don't pluralise the genitive case just because there is more than one 'owned' thing; only pluralise it if there's more than one 'owner'.



That's Italian grammar creeping in again, it's strange for me to not make it plural if there is more than one owned thing! But I see the logic in it now 
I think the rest of what you said makes sense..

I just thought the pronouns were minn/þinn/sinn/okkar/ykkar/þeirra, but you make a distinction, but yeah I know you can decline the singular ones into different genders, and you can't with the plural ones...

hundurinn *minn* - my dog
vegabréfið *mitt* - my passport
bókin *mín* - my book
Ég las bókinu *mína - *I read my book
Ég glataði skeiðarnar *mínar* - I lost my spoons

And for the others, in the plural it always remains okkar / ykkar / þeirra, is that what you mean?
Also, these ones would be the same as the genitive forms of the subject pronouns?

So *okkar* is the genitive of *við* and *ykkar *is the genitive of *þið* etc?

Have I understood?


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## thegooseking

Oh, yes. I don't know Italian, but you do the same in French. I guess it's the same as the difference between *i suoi*/*le sue* (French: *ses*) and *i loro*/*le loro* (French: *leurs*).

Yep, that's what I mean. Actually, it didn't occur to me to mention that *okkar*, *ykkar* and *þeirra* don't decline for gender. I was just talking about case, but you're right, they don't decline for gender either.


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## Alxmrphi

Exactly! 

Her friend - il suo amico
Her friends - i suoi amici

So, yeah Icelandic does the same (with sinn) but if in the sentence it needed to mean somebody else's friends then it would still remain as hennar ?

She _(Mary)_ wants to invite her _(Mary’s)_ friends to her _(Mary’s)_ birthday party
Hún vill bjóða *vinum sínum *í afmælisveislu sínni.
Here ‘*her*’ is in the plural for ‘*her* friends’ ..

She _(Mary)_ wants to invite her _(Jane’s)_ friends to her _(Mary’s)_ birthday party
Hún vill bjóða *vinunum hennar* í afmælisveislu sínni.
Here ‘*her*’ is in the singular for ‘*her* friends’ .. because she is inviting Jane’s friends not her own.

Is this right?
I wasn't sure about 'to her birthday party' so I assumed it was í + noun in the dative + possessive pronoun in (gender of word) dative.


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## thegooseking

This is mostly my girlfriend's answer, not mine.

"to her birthday party" - *í afmælisveisluna sína* (It needs the definite article, and generally, you should use the accusative case with *í* when change or motion is indicated.) 

Apart from that, the first sentence is correct.

The second sentence has the same problem in Icelandic that is has in English: it's ambiguous and awkward (though it _is_ less ambiguous in Icelandic than it is in English). "*Vinunum* (or just *vinum*) *hennar*" is correct on its own, but it sounds a little bit odd to have *hún* and *hennar* referring to different people. It may be okay, depending on the context, though, but to avoid ambiguity it may be better to just say "*Hún vill bjóða vinum Jane í afmælisveisluna sína*".

A final thing: it's possible to use "*Hana langar að bjóða...*" rather than "*Hún vill bjóða...*", though neither is really incorrect. My girlfriend says "I just like the sound of *langa* better."


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## Alxmrphi

I thought '*langa*' was a 'quirkey' verb where you had to use *mér langar*... but I might be mixing that up with *finnst* or *vantar* right now, both have been swirling around in my mind in the last hour....

I know what you mean about the second sentence, but I never intended that to make sense or sound good, I only wrote it to express how it might be different, and used 'Jane' as a context so 'hennar' would make sense (though it obviously wouldn't sound good)

It was just more to illustrate the differences of when each pronoun is used, that's all



> "to her birthday party" - *í afmælisveisluna sína* (It needs the definite article, and generally, you should use the accusative case with *í* when change or motion is indicated.)


 
Ah! Ok, I didn't realise even in this kind of thing, I didn't see any movement in it so I went for the dative, but yeah, I suppose there is '*to her party'*... that was just my silly mistake, and I need to start remembering the definite article!


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## thegooseking

Alex_Murphy said:


> I thought '*langa*' was a 'quirkey' verb where you had to use *mér langar*...



I think... *mig*, not *mér*, possibly? It's not something I'm entirely clear on. But yes, I was wrong; I think it should be *hana langar*. That was my mistake - my girlfriend said "hana langar" but I introduced the mistake myself.

*Edit:* Oh, okay, I saw the other thread about younger people using *mér* there these days.



> I know what you mean about the second sentence, but I never intended that to make sense or sound good, I only wrote it to express how it might be different, and used 'Jane' as a context so 'hennar' would make sense (though it obviously wouldn't sound good)
> 
> It was just more to illustrate the differences of when each pronoun is used, that's all


Yeah, I understand that, although it's important that it's less ambiguous (though not totally unconfusing) in Icelandic than it is in English, because, like you say, *vinum hennar* means something different to *vinum sínum*, so yes, you were right.


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