# Chap



## Dr.Appalayya

Does the word 'chap' have offensive meaning? Can we replace it with 'guy'?


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## aulait

_chap_ is more formal than _guy _I believe.

I would not use it in writing though, speaking is fine.
But here in Britain, only old people really use them..


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## Aud Duck

Here in the US, you would be considered pretentious if you said "chap." There seems to be a general consensus that only rich Englishmen say it. "Guy" means the same thing, but it is a very colloquial form. Another, even less formal synonym that is common here is "dude" (though its usage tends to be limited to a certain demographic).


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## Dimcl

Dr.Appalayya said:


> Does the word 'chap' have offensive meaning? Can we replace it with 'guy'?


 
I don't think it's "offensive", per se but it certainly has an English, old-school ring to my ears.  It's rarely used in Canada although I have heard older Canadians use it ie. "The chap at the garage said I need new tires".  In this context, "guy" would most commonly be used.


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## Brian P

When I lived in the UK in the 40's and 50's "chap" was an inoffensive word used by the upper classes.  In fact "old chap" was a term of endearment.  Working class people were more inclined to say "bloke". I believe that these terms are rarely used these days.  Brits have now adopted the American word "guy".  Maybe some of our UK members can verify this.

Brian


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## Dr.Appalayya

Thank you, Aulait, Dimcl,Brian P, Aud Duck.


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## whi

source: (OALD [y. 2000])
*chap *(_BrE informal_ becoming _old-fashioned_)

 Would you agree that _only 50[?] years_ ago this word _was still in *regular use*, on the same footing as 'bloke'?. 
W_ould you say it was [/is] used by a particular class, or just everybody in "colloquial" speech?.
How would you define "my dear chap":  'patronizing' or what?
Have you heard or read it recently?
Would you say it was [is/can be] used only by a particular class or also by "working class"?


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## Copyright

_Please use appropriate capitalization in your posts -- and please go back and correct this one before we reply. _(Rule)


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## Copyright

_This thread is open for answers now. _


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## panjandrum

These questions have, generally, been addressed in previous threads.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=299387
chap origin of the word
He's a nice chap [for someone you don't like?]
lad, chap, guy, bloke, lad, character
old chap
Rightio, tally-ho and chap - still used in British English?


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## whi

Thanks, panjandrum.
 My question is about "_my dear chap_", I cited OALD only to inform general public about current linguistics description of "chap": someone may not know this word, older Brits might not realize it has become 'old-fashioned" etc...
"my dear chap" has a different story


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## panjandrum

whi said:


> Thanks, panjandrum.
> My question is about "_my dear chap_", I cited OALD only to inform general public about current linguistics description of "chap": someone may not know this word, older Brits might not realize it has become 'old-fashioned" etc...
> "my dear chap" has a different story


In that case, your first post is misleading as the first two points are quite specifically about the word "chap".
I expect those points, at least, are addressed in the linked threads.


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## suzi br

The phrase _*my dear chap*_ is not very widely used these days. It could be used for comic effect in some contexts, perhaps amongst friends.  

I don't think it would be the phrase of choice for anyone being patronising, either, although obviously it has that potential in a limited number of contexts it sounds too dated to work that way.


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## whi

suzi br said:


> . It could be used for *comic* effect in some contexts, perhaps amongst friends.  .


Thank you suzibr.
Do you spot any other "connotation" un/friendly, patronizing, stiff-upper-lip, my-son or... other ?
What would be 'neutral' form now: my dear fellow,sir/man/bloke/pal...?
Do you think that , (when it was in normal usage,) it was *typical* of a[n upper] class?. 
This is the most important question: in another thread many native British speakers maintained that "working class" people would die rather than use "chap" or " my dear chap". I disagree and this is the motivation of my thread, the reason why I included also "chap"


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## ewie

*Moderator note: *Today's question has been merged with one of the threads previously linked to in post #10 above.


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## whi

Thanks ewie, do they use 'chap' and 'my dear chap' in Manchester?


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## ewie

I use _chap_ a fair bit (as I think I said in one of the other threads), though never in direct address.  I'm sure if I went to my local newsagent and said _Give me 20 Benson & Hedges, my dear chap_, I'd get punched.  It would sound: (a) idiotic, and (b) extremely condescending.


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## whi

ewie said:


> I use _chap_ a fair bit (as I think I said in one of the other threads), though never in direct address.  I'm sure if I went to my local newsagent and said _Give me 20 Benson & Hedges, my dear chap_, I'd get punched.  It would sound: (a) idiotic, and (b) extremely condescending.


Would you agree that a) is/was used when [in response] 'disagreeing/correcting someone' or b) [as an opening] addressing someone to tut-tut or to advice?


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## Andygc

ewie said:


> I use _chap_ a fair bit (as I think I said in one of the other threads), though never in direct address..


I, too, still use it and would have no hesitation in direct speech: "Come on chaps, hurry up!", "Are you chaps going to the pub?"


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## whi

Andygc said:


> I, too, still use it and would have no hesitation in direct speech: "Come on chaps, hurry up!", "Are you chaps going to the pub?"


Thanks, Andy,  you seem  unaware it's_ at-least-dated_; what about _'my dear chap'_ , would* you* get punched in your district?


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## sound shift

My father uses "chap" and "bloke" pretty indiscriminately. He probably knows that "chap" is in decline, but he couldn't care less.
I might still use "chap" to mean "bloke", but I think I mostly use "chap" in the restricted sense of "upper class male (real or aspiring) with a strong sense of tradition and exclusivity": the ex-public school types who man the fighter planes in British WW2 films; the men wearing MCC ties in the Members' Enclosure at Lord's Cricket Ground, etc. I don't think I would say "chap" to a chap's face, except perhaps in "Are you chaps coming?" and similar.

Neither my father nor I would say "My dear chap", except in jest.


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## whi

sound shift said:


> sense of* "upper class* male (real or aspiring) with a strong sense of tradition and exclusivity": the ex-public school types who man the fighter planes in British WW2 films; the men wearing MCC ties in the Members' Enclosure at Lord's Cricket Ground, etc. .


Thanks, soundshift , for your articulate analysis. People seem to have different ideas on the topic.
You say  that _'chap_' has a positive _'approving_' connotation, why should someone punch you , if you address him  'my dear chap', or think you are _condescending, irrespectful_, that is: that  you are *diminishing *him? He should be flattered.


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## panjandrum

Here is what the OED has to say about chap.


> *1.  A buyer, purchaser, customer. Still dial.*
> 
> *2a. colloq.  ‘Customer’, fellow, lad. (Todd, in 1818, said ‘it usually designates a  person of whom a contemptuous opinion is entertained’; but it is now  merely familiar and non-dignified, being chiefly applied to a young  man.)*


I once had a colleague who used "chaps" frequently to refer to any group of colleagues.  The term was entirely neutral.
I feel that the addition of "my dear" in "my dear chap" makes the form of address patronising/condescending.  It's only a little less so than "my man".


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## whi

panjandrum said:


> I feel that the addition of "my dear" in "my dear chap" makes the form of address patronising/condescending.  It's only a little less so than "my man".


That is really intreaguing, panjandrum, a chap in the other thread went as far as saying 'it sounds *colonial* English'. I wonder if we have any member from India.
Now, I am much older than you, if I closed this post with _colloquial_ English .....ta,ta-ta, my dear chap!, would you feel offended?
To my mind, it simply evokes a figure like Robert Morley.


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## panjandrum

whi said:


> That is really intreaguing, panjandrum, a chap in the other thread went as far as saying 'it sounds *colonial* English'. I wonder if we have any member from India.
> Now, I am much older than you, if I closed this post with _colloquial_ English .....ta,ta-ta, my dear chap!, would you feel offended?
> To my mind, it simply evokes a figure like Robert Morley.


No, but then I don't offend easily, and context makes a great deal of difference.
In a different context, in a thread on a completely different topic, I might well feel irritated at such a closure.


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## Alxmrphi

I could never bring myself to say _chap_ in a serious way.
I know for a 100% fact my friends around me would all turn their heads slowly to me with an expression of "Did you just say that? What's the joke I'm not getting?" or then go on to ridicule me if I had said it seriously (in the same way I would do to someone else my age or younger if I heard them say it). If it came from someone from another generation, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## Andygc

whi said:


> Thanks, Andy,  you seem  unaware it's_ at-least-dated_; what about _'my dear chap'_ , would* you* get punched in your district?


Firstly, I have declared my age to WR Forums, so perhaps I'm a bit dated (note Alxmrphi's different attitude to the word). Secondly, I would only ever say "my dear chap" jokingly and probably not to a shopkeeper. Thirdly, shopkeepers in Devon appear to be less aggressive than those in Manchester .


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## PaulQ

I too use, "chap" regularly, "This chap stopped me in the street...", "Some chap had reversed his car into mine..." 

"Dear chap" is indeed dated.


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## JulianStuart

whi said:


> Thanks, Andy,  you seem  unaware it's_ at-least-dated_?



Whi, I think you perhaps misinterpret the meaning of "dated".  What that term means, as this thread has amply demonstrated, is that it is used by the older (more, ahem, "dated") people in the population.*  I still hear it occasionally from British friends of my generation (same as Andy's and, I suspect, Paul's). When we're all gone, the dictionaries will designate it "obsolete" and then it will eventually become "archaic"!

*It's not as though a dictionary designates it as dated and sends a memo to all the people born before a certain date and informs them of the new designation


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## JulianStuart

It's a fair cop.

I think we, the older ones, are usually aware it is "dated" in the same way we are often "unaware" of the meanings of many of the words the "younger" people either make up or repurpose until they are reclassified from "code/slang" to "colloquial, _esp. for young people_".  I am so bad


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah there's nothing wrong with using dated words or expressions. I am fully aware and fully expect in the future I will have no problem using terms that are being used today, but younger people would never use. Some words go through this cycle all the time. I used a word in a message to my younger brother who is 5 years younger than me and he laughed at my use of some words, but I'll never change it as long as people who I hang around with (same age) would still use it. There should be no offence taken when younger people say things are a bit out of date, as the same thing will happen to them and it's all part of the greater linguistic cycle of words that come in, are new, get associated to a specific time period, then fall out, and younger generations see the association of that time (that they weren't involved in) and associate it as being an older thing, and new words would come in in their time, which will then be associated to their generation, which will then be tied to their "time".


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## LV4-26

I spent one month each year in England (Solent, to be exact) between 1964 and 1970 and I never ever heard the word _chap_.
I heard  _bloke_ quite a lot, especially in the last 2 years.

But then, I may have been in the wrong region or mixed with the wrong social class. My friends were mostly lower middle-class youths.


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## JamesM

Alxmrphi said:


> Yeah there's nothing wrong with using dated words or expressions. I am fully aware and fully expect in the future I will have no problem using terms that are being used today, but younger people would never use. Some words go through this cycle all the time. I used a word in a message to my younger brother who is 5 years younger than me and he laughed at my use of some words, but I'll never change it as long as people who I hang around with (same age) would still use it. There should be no offence taken when younger people say things are a bit out of date, as the same thing will happen to them and it's all part of the greater linguistic cycle of words that come in, are new, get associated to a specific time period, then fall out, and younger generations see the association of that time (that they weren't involved in) and associate it as being an older thing, and new words would come in in their time, which will then be associated to their generation, which will then be tied to their "time".



There is also another factor involved, though, that is often not discussed. There are words I didn't use in my twenties because I considered them so "dated", but I began to use those same words in my thirties or forties.  The narrow band of acceptability that is part of being a teenager begins to broaden out as you age, and words that were once something you'd think only your parents would say become part of your vocabulary, too.

This isn't true of all words, of course, but I think people are often surprised how many words they wouldn't say in their teens  became part of their vocabulary as they aged. 

So I take the declaration that a word is passé from someone in their teens or twenties with a grain of salt.    It means "not current with people my age", but that doesn't mean it will not be current with people their age as those same people get older.


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## sound shift

While doing some field research At the barber's the other day, I heard a 65-year-old of working-class background use "chap" in an entirely neutral way. He employed the word to describe a third party; he did not address me or the barber as "(my) old chap". So, while the term "chap" may well be "becoming obsolete", it is not yet "moribund".


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## suzi br

whi said:


> Thanks, Andy, you seem unaware it's_ at-least-dated_; what about _'my dear chap'_ , would* you* get punched in your district?



*Are you chaps* going to the pub is not dated.  The phrase "my dear chap" IS dated, as I have already said! 

 It is best avoided for numerous reasons.  I am now  nterested to know why you are so persistent about it.  Did you get punched for using it?


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## PabsVazq

It is obvious that 'chap', 'old chap' or 'my dear old chap' are becoming obsolete expressions. Another example is 'lads' as 'Hello, lads'; I learned this words when I was in middle school (late 80s) from a Swedish born teacher who hadn't been in UK since the 70s.
Hello lads is used by Sir Michael Caine in The Italian Job, so I guess it's an example of a colloquial expression in a working class environment.
As my personal experience, I was working in London when after doing something, my three times superior boss congratulated me saying "well done, dear chap". It was in 2008. I should mention that my boss was a sixty something Irishman born educated at only-boys public schools in England and I was me (then I was 28 Spaniard boy). I took it as a compliment, perhaps a bit condescending but he was actually my boss.

I hope I helped you out a little bit. Cheers.


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## Andygc

Welcome to the forum.

As we have already said "chap" remains in use. It is expressions such as "old chap" and "my dear chap" which have all but disappeared.


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## ewie

(Also: _lad_ is still very much very alive and very well in the North of England, even in direct address to a bunch of friends: _Ahreight lads!_)


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## sound shift

Dr.Appalayya said:


> Does the word 'chap' have offensive meaning? Can we replace it with 'guy'?


For some of us BrE speakers, "guy" is AmE, so we need an alternative. That's why we use the BrE terms "chap" and "bloke". They will become 'obsolete' because the younger generation has adopted the American term.


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## Keith Bradford

sound shift said:


> For some of us BrE speakers, "guy" is AmE, so we need an alternative. That's why we use the BrE terms "chap" and "bloke". They will become 'obsolete' because the younger generation has adopted the American term.


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## london calling

sound shift said:


> For some of us BrE speakers, "guy" is AmE, so we need an alternative. That's why we use the BrE terms "chap" and "bloke". They will become 'obsolete' because the younger generation has adopted the American term.


And that's not the only  problem. US speakers refer to women as 'guys' as well ("Hi guys!), which some British ladies still object to (it doesn't bother me particularly, but ..).


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## Scrawny goat

PabsVazq said:


> It is obvious that 'chap', 'old chap' or 'my dear old chap' are becoming obsolete expressions. Another example is 'lads' as 'Hello, lads'; I learned this words when I was in middle school (late 80s) from a Swedish born teacher who hadn't been in UK since the 70s.
> Hello lads is used by Sir Michael Caine in The Italian Job, so I guess it's an example of a colloquial expression in a working class environment.


‘Lads’ is commonly used in Ireland, as is ‘fellas’ (fellows). ‘Guys’ is also creeping in, but I avoid it myself as it sounds too much like what it is- a borrowing from American TV.


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## suzi br

Is lads used in Ireland the same way guys is used in US?  i.e. for men and women?


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## Scrawny goat

suzi br said:


> Is lads used in Ireland the same way guys is used in US?  i.e. for men and women?


Are we sure ‘guys’ is accepted as referring to women as well as men in AE?

In Ireland, some people would use ‘lads’ for a mixed or even an all female group but I would say that is a minority of speakers and generally it refers to men.


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## suzi br

I wouldn’t say “sure” but other people have mentioned it and I was first aware of it myself when I met a lot of young Canadians in the 1970s. It confused me for a while but I’ve seen / heard it a fair bit since then.

My Irish family use lads for mixed groups, but I wondered how common that is.


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## Scrawny goat

suzi br said:


> I wouldn’t say “sure” but other people have mentioned it and I was first aware of it myself when I met a lot of young Canadians in the 1970s. It confused me for a while but I’ve seen / heard it a fair bit since then.
> 
> My Irish family use lads for mixed groups, but I wondered how common that is.


More common outside of the large cities, I would say. I find it quite endearing, whereas I find ‘guys’ for women really irritating. I can’t explain why!


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## suzi br

Thanks. They are country folk! 
I don’t really mind inclusive “guys” or “chaps” for that matter!


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## sdgraham

Note Panj's contribution to this 11-year-old thread resurrection.
These questions have, generally, been addressed in previous threads.

chap origin of the word
He's a nice chap [for someone you don't like?]
lad, chap, guy, bloke, lad, character
old chap
Rightio, tally-ho and chap - still used in British English?

... or have things changed?


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## london calling

Scrawny goat said:


> Are we sure ‘guys’ is accepted as referring to women as well as men in AE?


Yes. For example, a (female) US friend of mine always called  my family 'guys', even when my husband and son weren't present (which means she was talking to three females). As I said, it doesn't bother me particularly and it's certainly becoming common in the UK. My son for example uses it all the time now in London when speaking English: he picked it up in there because I certainly never taught him to say that.


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