# All dialects: ج to د shift



## Hemza

Hello

I know that in some dialects, the ج is pronounced as a د (in some, under certain circumstances). I know it is the case in Egypt (صعيدي) and in the West of Morocco (when the word contains a س, ز, ص or a ش) although this is disappearing in Morocco except with the verb جاز/يجوز still pronounced داز/يدوز. I would like to know where else this shift exist.

Thank you.


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## akhooha

I don't know where else this shift exists, but I'm fairly certain that in Egypt it is not a feature of any صعيدي dialect. It is found in some Delta dialects.


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## Hemza

Thanks for your reply .
Well I heard صعيد people for example saying حادة instead of حاجة or ردل instead of رجل.


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## rayloom

I'm not aware of any dialects in the Arabian peninsula that do this. In fact the only example that comes to mind is that some Algerians pronounce الجزائر as دزاير.


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## I.K.S.

Hemza said:


> the ج is pronounced as a د (in some, under certain circumstances). I know it is the case in Egypt (صعيدي) and in the West of Morocco (when the word contains a س, ز, ص or a ش) although this is disappearing in Morocco except with the verb جاز/يجوز still pronounced داز/يدوز


It seems to be a typical western usage as you said ,However it's not disappearing ,but i would say some words are threatened due to the urbanization of rural areas ,and overall words containing those characters adjacently are already few,and i can give more examples that we still use to this day .
for ج س  we say داسر  < جاسر as فلان داسر  "brave"
for ج ص we say مدصص < مجصص as أرض مدصصة
for ج ش we say دحش < ( أعزكم الله)جحش
for ج ز we say جزاز < دزاز "Sheep shearer" , also يجزي< يدزي (in sense of يخلص)
but there are exceptions as well ,as in جزار and جزيرة that are simply pronounced "gezzar"  and "g'zeera" for instance.


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## Hemza

Now, I remember a Sudanese song in which the singer says دموعي تدري while he actually means دموعي تجري.



rayloom said:


> I'm not aware of any dialects in the Arabian peninsula that do this. In fact the only example that comes to mind is that some Algerians pronounce الجزائر as دزاير.



Thanks for your reply. About how some Algerians pronounce their country's name isn't linked with a ج to د switch but it is more a kind of shortcut. But if it doesn't exist in Arabia, so how did it happen to exist in Morocco and Egypt/Sudan? Either it developped in North Africa or it had been brought from Arabia? In this case, it means that such feature probably disappeared from there?



إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> It seems to be a typical western usage as you said ,However it's not disappearing ,but i would say some words are threatened due to the urbanization of rural areas ,and overall words containing those characters adjacently are already few,and i can give more examples that we still use to this day .
> for ج س  we say داسر  < جاسر as فلان داسر  "brave"
> for ج ص we say مدصص < مجصص as أرض مدصصة
> for ج ش we say دحش < ( أعزكم الله)جحش
> for ج ز we say جزاز < دزاز "Sheep shearer" , also يجزي< يدزي (in sense of يخلص)
> but there are exceptions as well ,as in جزار and جزيرة that are simply pronounced "gezzar"  and "g'zeera" for instance.



I got a bit ahead of myself about the fact it is disappearing but that's because if I hadn't read about it somewhere, I wouldn't even know about such feature existing in Morocco since I never heard it myself from Western Moroccans although I only heard people from cities so I don't know about rural areas. I'm glad it is still in use then .

Do you pronounce جالس as "jaales", "gaales" or "daales" or you rather use بارك or قاعد?


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## I.K.S.

^ 
We pronounce it ''gaales'' and we use بارك too,... قاعد ''gaa3ed'' sounds more rural,and its usage differs a bit from the two mentioned words ,especially said to someone who has been lying down before he sits,here the correct usage should be فلان قاعد and not ''gaales''.


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## Zoghbi

It occurs also in almost all dialects for the word دشيشة (also تشيشة) originally جشيشة.



> But if it doesn't exist in Arabia, so how did it happen to exist in Morocco and Egypt/Sudan? Either it developped in North Africa or it had been brought from Arabia? In this case, it means that such feature probably disappeared from there?



In North Africa (except for Soudan  according to your example) this phenomenon is attested only in contact with sibilants consonants (j, sh, s, z)  so the nature maghrebian dialects (lack of short vowels) can easily explain why theses kind modifications occur (the contact of sibilants in maghrebians dialect is a vast topic: sejra (algerian), zowz (hassani-lybian-tunisian), gebs (morrocan), 3ejouz (algerian), etc...).

The only examples I foun in Algerian are:
_dzaayr_ (already said)
_dzeera_ island
_dsheesha_ dish
_yedzi_ (also _yezzi_) to suffice


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## I.K.S.

Zoghbi said:


> gebs (morrocan), 3ejouz (algerian)


what do you mean by these two words ; "gypsum" and "mother-in-law" ?


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## Zoghbi

gebs (cl.جبس) "plâtre" and "old woman" ("mother-in-law" is nsiba in my dialect).

All the words have in common that they contain two sibilants.


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## I.K.S.

Here the pronunciation of "plaster" is a bit sharper ; "gabs"
and i asked you about the other word because عدوزة from عجوزة is the term we use for "mother-in-law" ( another example added to the list )


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## Zoghbi

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> Here the pronunciation of "plaster" is a bit sharper ; "gabs"
> and i asked you about the other word because عدوزة from عجوزة is the term we use for "mother-in-law" ( another example added to the list )



 Suprising, actually old short "a" is preserved in nouns almost only in specifical consonant environement (glutural and emphatics phonems) in Algerian westerns dialects (also in Algiers regions and North Constantinois), so I suppose it was the case inall morrocans dialects.



> for ج ز we say جزاز < دزاز "Sheep shearer"



Algerian (western and central "nomadic" dialects: _zejj _cl.جز)
Tunisian-tripolitan: _zezz_.

The permutation with a "d" or a "g" seems to be a distinctive feature of morrocan arabic.


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## I.K.S.

Zoghbi said:


> Suprising, actually old short "a" is only preserved in specifical consonant environement (glutural and emphatics phonems) in Algerian westerns dialects (also in Algiers regions and North Constantinois), so I suppose it was the case inall morrocans dialects.


Only in regions with Hilalian presence / influence if i'm not mistaken ,that the guttural harsh-sounding was a feature of them ,and i notice that especially when they sing their traditional poems called العيطة which surprisingly means "screaming"


Zoghbi said:


> The permutation with a "d" or a "g" seems to be a distinctive feature of morrocan arabic.


Yes but only in few cases as i mentioned earlier,I suppose we used to pronounce the ج as well in the past ,as in دجزاير for instance but The ج got dropped ,because people soften their language as time passes.. along with other factors.


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## 3arbiChawi

Zoghbi said:


> It occurs also in almost all dialects for the word دشيشة (also تشيشة) originally جشيشة.
> 
> _dzaayr_ (already said)


i agree with @Hemza this has a different origins. Dzair comes from the name of the founders or  Algiers (the Zirides الزيريون) and Djazair comes from the word the islands "لجزائر"


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## Zoghbi

"dzair" is indeed the diminutive of الجزائر no doubt about it. The city of Algiers carry this name (الجزائر) from centuries, "الجزائر بني مزغنة" is mentionned in Al-Bakri's description of North african cities.


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## Hemza

3arbiChawi said:


> i agree with @Hemza this has a different origins. Dzair comes from the name of the founders or  Algiers (the Zirides الزيريون) and Djazair comes from the word the islands "لجزائر"



Oups, I didn't say this, I said this:

"About how some Algerians pronounce their country's name isn't linked with a ج to د switch but it is more a kind of shortcut".

I couldn't have claimed that الجزائر and دزاير have different origins, because I didn't know about this, I always assumed it was just a diminutive form (independent from the ج to د switch as it occurs in the West of Morocco).


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## Golden-Rose

This has got me thinking, لا يوجد جزائر في الجزائر


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## Hemza

I think they are some along the Mediterranean coast.


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## Zoghbi

Hemza said:


> I think they are some along the Mediterranean coast.



Nope.


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## Hemza

I found another shift I came across in a study about Morocco. I don't think people use it anymore but according to the study, the verb جلس which is pronounced with a g in urban dialects, is (rarely) pronounced دلس in Western Moroccan dialects .


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