# forme di cortesia: tu - lei - voi - loro



## ChrisM

(Appologies in advance for my horrible Italian)

Capito nel'italiano sono due metodi parlare a un'altra persona: in modo formale (Come sta Lei), ed informale (Come stai). 

Leggo libri aiutare imperare italiano. Ora, leggo 'Pinocchio' di Carlo Collodi. In questo libro, Collodi ha scritto una conversazione fra mastr'Antonio e Geppetto come questo:

- Perchè mi offendete
- Chi vi offende?
- Mi avete detto Polendina!

Ci sono solo due persone nella conversazione. Perchè ha usato 'voi' e non 'tu' o 'Lei'? Perchè il libro è vecchio? E' cosa letteraraia?


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## Manuela

Dear ChrisM

In Italian the "voi" is also FORMAL, however is a little outdated; usually older people use it with each other ( my grandmother still does) as a form of respect. Young people don't use it much, modern grammar calls for the "Lei" form, and that's what we use. However a lot of books, especially classics like "Pinocchio", will still have it.
I hope that helped

P.S. You are doing very well with your Italian, keep it up!

Manuela


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## EvanC

Manuela said:
			
		

> In Italian the "voi" is also FORMAL, however is a little outdated


 
Does this mean that the "voi" form is not used to address more than one person? Example:
[Voi] Andate in Italia. - meaning You [guys] are going to Italy. 
And since we are on the subject of how to say "you" in Italian, is the "Loro" form used when addressing a group of people that you are on formal terms with? Or is that outdated aswell? I think that it is, but I'm not sure. 
Thanks for the help!
Evan C


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## carrickp

In Italian class they taught us "tu" for familiar, "lei" for formal and "voi" when speaking to more than one person. I'm a musician, and I notice that in the libretti of Italian operas up well into the 20th century the "voi" form is used for formal address ("voi siete un gentiluomo") in exactly the same way that "vous" is used in French. The "lei" form is used only rarely, mainly when a lower-ranked person is addressing someone in the nobility in a very, very formal manner. Is the "voi" form used for formal address just a poetic thing, or was it common in speech in earlier times?


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## laratri

carrickp said:
			
		

> In Italian class they taught us "tu" for familiar, "lei" for formal and "voi" when speaking to more than one person. I'm a musician, and I notice that in the libretti of Italian operas up well into the 20th century the "voi" form is used for formal address ("voi siete un gentiluomo") in exactly the same way that "vous" is used in French. The "lei" form is used only rarely, mainly when a lower-ranked person is addressing someone in the nobility in a very, very formal manner. Is the "voi" form used for formal address just a poetic thing, or was it common in speech in earlier times?


 
Before the Second World War it was common in speech..
But now only Lei is used......

Lara


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## Manuel_M

When, many years ago, I was taught Italian, I was told that_ voi _(besides being the second person plural) could be used to address strangers who were considred (horrible notion) one's social inferiors. I have never actually heard it being used that way. I've often wondered whether it was really at one time used in that context.


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## V52

Dear friends,
this is a quite interesting post!  As Laratri says "Voi"  is  now a very very rarely used form.
But for 19th century and before we can say :
Tu : (second  singular person)  for familiar uses  between brothers, very closed friends etc. 
Lei or Ella : (third singular feminine  person)  for  official  relationships  in  equal  rank persons , wich should be changed in "tu", after  a more closed, confidential and friendly relationship. *
Voi:  (second plural person)  from  a lower rank  person to a superior rank person.
So,  a son or a daughter  had to speak with voi to a parent. A soldier to a lieutenant, a  coutryman to a noble man... etc  so it is easily found in operas , where the language must be more  "elegant" .

Under Fascism Regime a "culture ministry" decided to  abolish the use of  "Lei" , wich  was  completely forbidden in any  daily use! The reason was "Lei" is the use of  "plutocratic people" and italian had to "rescue the language of Fathers ". Nothing  more wrong of course, because  the "Lei" "Ella" form was  as common as "Voi" in  previous times , and  Romans used definitely only "Tu"  in every case.  

* In old movies  a man and a woman use between them "lei" or "voi" form , after the first kiss... "tu"  of course... 
Ciao a tutti
VItt52


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## ivanbcn

Hi, I'm not sure, but maybe in Southern Italy (I'm thinking of Naples, for example), the polite "voi" is still quite widely used in everyday language; maybe someone from the South of Italy could tell us

ciao
ivan


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## lisetta

Certainly when I used to go back to southern Italy as a child in the 70s my mother used to address her elderly aunt with 'voi', but that doesn't tells us whether it's still in use today, but like Ivan I would imagine that it probably is.

ciao,
Lisetta


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## ikester

lisetta said:
			
		

> Certainly when I used to go back to southern Italy as a child in the 70s my mother used to address her elderly aunt with 'voi', but that doesn't tells us whether it's still in use today, but like Ivan I would imagine that it probably is.
> 
> ciao,
> Lisetta


Most certainly. I hear it almost daily from clerks and waiters. When I say "grazie', the inevitable response is "a voi."

Many people here still use "voi" when speaking to someone who is a generation older, even if they've known the person for years.

ciao!


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## carrickp

Thanks to all for this explanation.

A follow-up question: Does one use "voi" when addressing more than one person, even politely?


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## ikester

carrickp said:
			
		

> Thanks to all for this explanation.
> 
> A follow-up question: Does one use "voi" when addressing more than one person, even politely?


The plural is always "voi", whether formal or informal.

ciao!


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## DDT

ivanbcn said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm not sure, but maybe in Southern Italy (I'm thinking of Naples, for example), the polite "voi" is still quite widely used in everyday language; maybe someone from the South of Italy could tell us
> 
> ciao
> ivan



As ikester confirmed, the formal "voi" is still commonly used in Southern Italy

DDT


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## Otter

*Salve tutti,*

*I'm here, listening to Italian Language tapes and I wonder how often and when does one use the formal Io and Lei when speaking with people one meets in Italy?*

*Is it necessary when speaking with hotel and restaurant people, with store owners, strangers and when one meets friends and relative of someone one already knows?*

*grazie.*


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## brian

Otter said:
			
		

> *Salve tutti,*
> 
> *I'm here, listening to Italian Language tapes and I wonder how often and when does one use the formal Io and Lei when speaking with people one meets in Italy?*
> 
> *Is it necessary when speaking with hotel and restaurant people, with store owners, strangers and when one meets friends and relative of someone one already knows?*
> 
> *grazie.*


 Hi Otter,

I think you mean the formal _Lei_ vs. the informal _tu_, right?  _Io_ in itself is neither formal nor informal...it just means _I_.  The question of formality instead deals with how to address someone else, either as formal _Lei_ or informal _tu_.

There have been some past discussions of these, such as this.  But since this is a very important topic, you may be able to spark up some discussion here.

I think all your above scenarios would call for the formal use.  Since hotel, restaurant, and store people would address their customers formally, I think it would be customary to respond back to them formally as well.  As for strangers, unless the stranger is a child or if you are both teenagers, then you should use the informal; otherwise, use formal.

The informal is basically reserved for close friends, family, and maybe someone you've recently met but whom you've asked (or who has asked you) to speak informally.  You can ask this by saying something like, _Ci diamo del *tu*, d'accordo?_  There's a thread around here somewhere....


Brian


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## Otter

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Hi Otter,
> 
> I think you mean the formal _Lei_ vs. the informal _tu_, right? _Io_ in itself is neither formal nor informal...it just means _I_. The question of formality instead deals with how to address someone else, either as formal _Lei_ or informal _tu_.


*Thanks, Brian No, I meant lei and Io vs. what, I don't know. (I think that rhymes). I've been listening to language tapes and they're using Lei and Io in conversation between an American and an Italian who meet as strangers.*


> There have been some past discussions of these, such as this. But since this is a very important topic, you may be able to spark up some discussion here.
> 
> *Thanks again.  I checked it out.*
> 
> I think all your above scenarios would call for the formal use. Since hotel, restaurant, and store people would address their customers formally, I think it would be customary to respond back to them formally as well. As for strangers, unless the stranger is a child or if you are both teenagers, then you should use the informal; otherwise, use formal.
> 
> The informal is basically reserved for close friends, family, and maybe someone you've recently met but whom you've asked (or who has asked you) to speak informally. You can ask this by saying something like, _Ci diamo del *tu*, d'accordo?_ There's a thread around here somewhere....
> 
> 
> Brian


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## Jana337

Otter said:
			
		

> *Thanks, Brian No, I meant lei and Io vs. what, I don't know. (I think that rhymes). I've been listening to language tapes and they're using Lei and Io in conversation between an American and an Italian who meet as strangers.*


OK but your question is a bit cryptic. What can be formal about "io"? Could you give some examples?

"Lei" can be formal - you won't address strangers with "tu".

Jana


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## brian

I think I see what you're asking now.  In my experience, language tapes gloss over all the grammatical points in favor of brute repetition, which is fine and valuable as well.  However, because of this, they often unnecessarily use the subject pronouns _io _and _lei_ in every sentence.  I say this is unnecessary because in Italian the verb already contains information as to its subject person.  Hence, the typical use of the subject pronoun in Italy is either for emphasis or for clarification if the verb usage is ambiguous.

Language tapes often unnecessarily use the subject pronouns just because it makes it easier for the listener to comprehend what's going on, as well as force the listener to repeat them so that when they eventually speak in Italy and use the subject pronouns, there will be less of a chance of miscommunication.

So if you're asking when does one use the subject pronouns and when does he leave them out, I'd say only use them for emphasis or clarification.  If you're asking about formal vs. informal, then refer to my previous post.  And if I'm _still_ not understanding you, please let me know. 


Brian


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## TrentinaNE

In this thread, Paul indicated that Leibe should address a male that she doesn't know well with the "lei" form.


> Spero che lei continui il suo viaggio senza problemi.


Alternatively, Kraus suggested here that the "tu" form


> Ti stai divertendo in Sicilia e a Siracusa?


is OK in addressing what I presume is the same individual.

I'm not at all clear on when the line from tu to Lei (or vice versa) is crossed. I'd love to hear perspectives from_ i madrelingua._  

Elisabetta


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## kan3malato

Ciao
A mio modo di vedere anche nel tuo secondo link Leibe dovrebbe usare del "lei".
Non credo esistano regole fisse, comunque dovresti usare del "lei" quando:
1)Non conosci la persona con cui stai parlando.

2)Se la persona è più grande di te, soprattutto  se anziana(è una forma di rispetto).

3) Se pur conoscendo una persona vuoi comunque mantenere una certa distanza(non vuoi dare troppa confidenza).

Considerazioni:
In realtà però le cose non sono così definite, per esempio bambini e ragazzi anche se non si conoscono non si danno del "lei", danno del "lei" solamente a persone più grandi di loro (oggi sempre meno comunque).
Se conosci qualcuno su Internet non ho mai sentito dare del "lei", il linguaggio è molto informale. Non darei del "lei" neanche se incontrassi in un forum il Papa o il presidente della repubblica, tanto per intenderci... Ma gli darei del "lei" se li incontrassi di persona.
Per quanto riguarda l'età è un pò difficile da stabilire in linea generale vista la tua età potresti dare del "tu" a tutti i ragazzi sotto ai trent'anni.
Poi ti ripeto, dipende anche molto come ti poni tu verso gli altri, che tipo sei, quanto vuoi rimanere "distaccata" ecc ecc
Non mi viene in mente altro per ora, sicuramente qualche altro del forum potrà  aiutarti meglio.

Ciao



TrentinaNE said:


> In this thread, Paul indicated that Leibe should address a male that she doesn't know well with the "lei" form.
> 
> Alternatively, Kraus suggested here that the "tu" form
> 
> is OK in addressing what I presume is the same individual.
> 
> I'm not at all clear on when the line from tu to Lei (or vice versa) is crossed. I'd love to hear perspectives from_ i madrelingua._
> 
> Elisabetta


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## orchidea

We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other. 

"lei" = when we don't know the person with whom we talk; when we talk with an old person or with ours superiors

"tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.

I hope it's useful.


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## TrentinaNE

orchidea said:


> "tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.


Grazie, kan e orchidea.  I think Leibe's concern might be: if she uses the _tu_ form with a man of her own age that she doesn't know well, will he think she's being overly familiar?  From your explanations, I would think not, and that instead, he might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as_ lei_.

Other thoughts?

Elisabetta


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## orchidea

You think well! He might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as_ lei_.


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## Mickele

Ciao. Condivido le affermazioni di kan3. Aggiungo che - a mio parere - in alcuni contesti e situazioni è facile passare rapidamente dal "Lei" al "tu" per esempio quando conosci qualcuno da poco ma trovi dei legami in comune (siete della stessa città o avete frequentato la stessa università oppure, parlando in senso lato, appartenete allo stesso "club"...). In alcune circostanze è possibile anche il contrario, ovvero inizi con il "tu" ma dalla reazione di colui che ti ascolta credi sia meglio passare al "Lei" per mantenere un certo distacco. In alcuni ambiti (anche familiari) ed in alcune regioni (si usa spesso anche in Toscana) persiste un'ulteriore forma di rispetto, il "Voi". Io stesso mi rivolgo col "Voi" (al singolare) ad alcuni miei conoscenti molto anziani e la cosa sorprendente è che anche i loro stessi figli usano il "Voi" quando si rivolgono ai genitori. Un po' complicato, vero? Sono sicuro che altre opinioni seguiranno.


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## kan3malato

orchidea said:


> We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other.
> 
> "lei" = when we don't know the person with whom we talk; when we talk with an old person or with ours superiors
> 
> "tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.
> 
> I hope it's useful.


Ciao.
 Non sono totalmente daccordo, dipende molto dall'età secondo me, indipendentemente se hanno la solita età.
Immagina due "signore" sposate intorno ai 45/50 anni (anche meno) che si incontrano al supermercato e casualmente si parlano" Signora, prego passi lei"/"che ne pensa di questi pannolini.." /" oh! dovrebbe  prendere questa marca di detersivo, sapesse è miracoloso"/ "ha visto lo sconto sui surgelati?"
Tanto per rendere l'idea...


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## MünchnerFax

orchidea said:


> We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other.





orchidea said:


> You think well! He might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as_ lei_.



Non sono per niente d'accordo su questo discorso che persone coetanee si diano automaticamente del _tu_, dipende molto dall'età. Se i due sono giovani (sotto i 30 anni), si daranno subito del _tu_. Ma se sono per esempio due cinquantenni che non si sono mai incontrati prima, al 99,9% si daranno del _lei, _e nessuno dei due penserà di comportarsi in modo troppo formale. Anzi, sarebbe considerato piuttosto sfacciato indirizzarsi con il _tu_.

Io stesso che ho meno di 30 anni considero con un certo fastidio che mi apostrofi con il _tu_ un perfetto sconosciuto più anziano di me, se il contesto è 'serioso' come all'università o sul luogo di lavoro, o perché no anche tra compagni di viaggio sul treno; e ovviamente in queste condizioni uso sempre il _lei_. Ma qui dipende anche, per l'appunto, dalla sensibilità personale al tema e dal contesto.


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## Akire72

Io do del Lei alle persone che non conosco diciamo dai 40/45 anni in su, ai clienti del mio negozio, ai miei capi ingegneri, a commessi di negozi/bar/agenzie ecc (se over 20/25).

Do del tu agli amici, ai colleghi, ai familiari, a persone che hanno dai 30 in giù anche se estranee (es. entro in un bar la barista è una ragazza giovane le do del tu anche se non l'ho mai vista).

Non credo che dare del tu a una persona giovane sia mancanza di rispetto. Io, quando hanno cominciato a chiamarmi "signora" e a darmi del Lei, mi sono sentita terribilmente vecchia!


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## TrentinaNE

So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with _lei _instead of _tu_?

For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50).  Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"?  Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?

Elisabetta


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## Paulfromitaly

TrentinaNE said:


> So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with _lei _instead of _tu_?
> 
> For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50).  Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"?  Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?
> 
> Elisabetta



If I were in your shoes, I'd use "lei" for 2 reasons:

First because people in their 40s or older would say "lei";
Second because approaching a person you've never met before using "tu" might give the wrong impression that you do it down to a lack of knowledge of the right form to use (typical of some foreigners) whereas I'm sure you speak Italian very well.


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## kan3malato

TrentinaNE said:


> So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with _lei _instead of _tu_?
> 
> For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50).  Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"?  Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?
> 
> Elisabetta


In my opinion you should start using "lei" and then if the situation Will be allow to do it you can use "tu"..



A volte poi capita di incontrare dei tipi che anche prima che tu parli, dal modo come sono vestiti e si atteggiano sembrano dirti "Dammi del lei", come mi piace in queste situazioni dargli a "chiocco" del "tu"..  ;-D


ps
Elisabetta Have a look at my English,please ;-D


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## cas29

My feeling is that I'd rather make the error of being too formal at first, -- that is a "polite" error and no one will think worse of you if you make it.

I'm pretty close to your age Elisabetta, and I'd use Lei to anyone over 40-ish in an social setting-- but with the underlying expectation that they would suggest shifting to "tu" fairly quickly in that context.

For work, dealing with clients (the people who pay as opposed to the people I teach)  I *always *use Lei until asked to do otherwise.  If I'm the older person, (which is happening more and more!  ) I sometimes suggest using tu, but not usually.  I like to maintain a bit of distance.

With my students, who are generally all younger than me, I permit them to use "tu" if we speak in Italian because I want to have a relaxed relationship.

Personally I prefer to be addressed with lei at first, because I like the "distance" involved.   (For example, at my bank in Canada I really DISLIKE it when the staff at the bank call me by my first name--- I don't feel this is professional behaviour). 

Like many things in Italy, it isn't black and white.
However, just as, in Milan it is almost impossible to be "too dressed up"... in general I'd say it is impossible to be "too polite" --- especially if you are a foreigner!


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## Paulfromitaly

cas29 said:


> My feeling is that I'd rather make the error of being too formal at first, -- that is a "polite" error and no one will think worse of you if you make it.
> 
> I'm pretty close to your age Elisabetta, and I'd use Lei to anyone over 40-ish in an social setting-- but with the underlying expectation that they would suggest shifting to "tu" fairly quickly in that context.
> 
> For work, dealing with clients (the people who pay as opposed to the people I teach)  I *always *use Lei until asked to do otherwise.  If I'm the older person, (which is happening more and more!  ) I sometimes suggest using tu, but not usually.  I like to maintain a bit of distance.
> 
> With my students, who are generally all younger than me, I permit them to use "tu" if we speak in Italian because I want to have a relaxed relationship.
> 
> Personally I prefer to be addressed with lei at first, because I like the "distance" involved.   (For example, at my bank in Canada I really DISLIKE it when the staff at the bank call me by my first name--- I don't feel this is professional behaviour).
> 
> Like many things in Italy, it isn't black and white.
> However, just as, in Milan it is almost impossible to be "too dressed up"... in general I'd say it is impossible to be "too polite" --- especially if you are a foreigner!



You drew a perfect pic of the situation: I'd stick with it.


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## Ron V

In another thread, we got off on a tangent when I brought up my earlier question about the use of vuole and vorrebbe and got into lei versus tu usage.

The last comment was:
If the method that Ron uses addresses all people with "Lei" I think that's ridiculous. In Italy, no one uses "Lei" for family or friends.

My language course - I'm about halfway into level I - uses lei for every reference to the second person as in:
vorrebbe bere con lei? Given the quote above, obviously 'lei' is not used as often as is indicated in the course to the point I have progressed.
I would be grateful for some specific examples of what to use when:
talking to airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, shop owner
talking to a waiter who has been very friendly with me
in a conversation with people who are  very new friends in Italy
talking to my family

molte grazie


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## Evito

It also depends how old you are. I'm 22, and I would always address airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, or a shop owner with "Lei" unless they had my age or were younger than me.

To people of the same age you usually say "Tu".

The same goes for a waiter...if the person is a bit older than you, I think you would have to say "Lei" but if it's a younger person you don't have to.

New friends, I would absolutely say "Tu". Family: Always use "Tu".

It's better if someone else specifies how Italians handel this because I'm from The Netherlands, but I don't think there's a big difference. I'm a polite person so I think you could use these rules.

I have two Italian teachers, of about 40 and 50, and they don't really mind if we use Tu or Lei. I use Lei, to be polite.

With other teachers, I sometimes use "Tu".

In our course there's also an older gentleman of about 65 years of age. In the beginning I used to use "Lei" with him (or the Dutch equivalent) but now I don't because I got to know him better.

My Italian friend at the university says that in her family they always used "Tu" even for grandma and grandpa (in the Netherlands we might have to use "Lei").

I don't think the Italians are overly polite. It also seems to have to do with the city you're in. I've been told in Rome everyone uses "Tu", but outside the city you might hear more "Lei".


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## ElaineG

> talking to airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, shop owner -- you can't go wrong using Lei, but since they know you are a foreigner no one will be offended if you say tu
> talking to a waiter who has been very friendly with me - Again, Lei is appropriate unless the waiter is a teenager or similar.
> in a conversation with people who are very new friends in Italy - with new friends, you can stick with Lei until they invite you to use "tu" (usually happens quite rapidly).  Again, though, when I first moved to Italy, I made ample use of tu since I didn't really have a grip on Lei and no one got offended.
> 
> talking to my family  - tu tu tu...


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## x_moose_x

Hi! 

I'm writing an information booklet for a fictional town and was wondering which person to use throughout! Should it be voi? ie 

'se non vorreste rilassarsi in spiaggia tutto il giorno....'

or would you use 'si'  as in, in English 'one' ? ie

'se non vorrebbe rilassarsi in spiaggia....'

Thanks!


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## Kraus

It's better to use "voi". "Lei" is a bit cool. "Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno..."


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## arenas

Kraus said:


> It's better to use "voi". "Lei" is a bit cool. "Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno..."



Ottimo suggerimento!
Ricorda che se usi il congiuntivo nell'ipotesi, la conseguenza richiede il condizionale. Ad esempio:
_Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno, *potreste* visitare le bellezze della città._

Nell'ipotesi potresti anche usare l'indicativo, e il verbo nella conseguenza andrebbe all'indicativo:
_Se non volete rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno, *potete *__visitare le bellezze della città._

Comunque, poiché una guida non pretende di sapere con certezza le preferenze del lettore , io starei sul congiuntivo come suggerito da Kraus

Ciao


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## Stumpy457

I am going to Italy in a few months and I just wanted to be sure to get this right: when you go into a shop, restaurant, etc., would you use _Lei _and _Loro _when talking to the staff? For instance, if I go into a book shop and want to find _Le Avventure di Alice nel Paese delle Meraviglie _(which I do, BTW XD), would I say, 'Hanno il libro _Le Avventure..._' or would I say 'Avete...'? I'm just a little confused on this one...(and just when I thought I understoond T/V distinction, this rolls up!)

Grazie!


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## Danieloid

You'd ask: "Mi scusi, avete _Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie?_"
Mi scusi, (you, the man in the bookshop who I'm speaking to - singular - formal) avete (you, the owners of the bookshop - plural) _Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie?_
The _Tu/Lei_ problem, discussed in this thread, is for singular form.


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## -STEVE-

You can also use "Loro":
"Hanno loro il libro "_Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie"?_
It's a very ancient formal form.
If you said that to a shop assistant, he or she would take some time to realise the meaning of the question, just because it's arcaic.


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## brian

-STEVE- said:


> You can also use "Loro":
> "Hanno loro il libro "_Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie"?_
> It's a very ancient formal form.
> If you said that to a shop assistant, he or she would take some time to realise the meaning of the question, just because it's arcaic.



Then that would probably mean you *can't* use it.  Right?

Just like I'd tell a non-native English speaker that you *can't* ask a shopkeep, "Doth thou have _Alice in Wonderland_?" even though maybe once upon a time you could say it.


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## federicoft

_Loro_ as a formal pronoun is a bit old-fashioned. The informal pronoun (_Voi_) is perceived polite enough when addressing more than one person. 
Still, should I address two old ladies, I would use it. But I agree those are just niceties.


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## brian

Really?

A few years ago when I first started learning Italian, I read in some thread here some Italian say something like, "Even if I were addressing the present and the pope, I'd still use _voi_" because _loro_ is so outdated and odd-sounding. And in my personal experience I've never ever heard _loro_ used as a formal _voi_ (even though it's in our textbooks).

But I suppose it depends on a lot of things. I also don't hang out with many prestigious people.


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## federicoft

brian8733 said:


> I also don't hang out with my prestigious people.




So do I, still I would feel a bit uncomfortable by saying e.g. "scendete alla prossima fermata?" to an elderly couple. Probably it's a matter of personal perceptions.

Actually even in restaurants or shops is not so uncommon to address customers with _Loro_: "i signori desiderano?".


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## brian

Sorry, that "my" should've been "many," of course!

Okay but "I signori desiderano" is a _little_ different, no? It would sound a little weird to say, for example, "Voi signori desiderate.." wouldn't it? I think the inclusion of "signori" allows for the "loro" form much more easily.

If you take out the direct address, it sounds a little weirder, doesn't it? Would you say, for example, "Mi scusano, (loro) hanno già chiesto?" to ask "Scusatemi (signori), avete già chiesto?" It just sounds weird, but maybe because it's very very formal/old and I'm not used to it.


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## AlabamaBoy

Brian, it was more than 30 years ago, but my friend and I were going to rent an apartment in Trieste that was being vacated by an elderly lady. Every time she spoke to us she insisted on calling us "Loro" instead of "voi"  -- at first we felt like looking around to see who else was there - and sometimes we would get completely confused and she'd have to use "voi" and then she pretended to be embarrassed and apologized for using "voi." The story about the bank director and private detective reminded me of this incident.


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## vale_ca

Cogliendo un ottimo suggerimento, propongo due casi e due domande a proposito di Lei e tu.

Non considerando il caso a): "Lei", quando ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando un titolo (Signore, Avvocato, Professore...); o il caso b): "tu" tra amici, familiari o coetanei; ci sono i seguenti casi: 

caso c) ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando il cognome e il Lei 
   esempi: un insegnante che si rivolge agli allievi (di solito adulti)
                 io quando mi rivolgo al direttore del personale della mia azienda

caso d) ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando il nome e il Lei
    esempi: un avvocato che si rivolge alla segretaria
                  io quando mi rivolgo alla badante di mio padre

Domanda 1) c'e' un modo per distinguere in inglese i casi c) e d) tra loro e dal caso b)? 

Domanda 2) traducendo un romanzo dall'inglese in italiano e' meglio usare Lei o voi nei casi a), c) e d)? 
(Ho visto usare entrambi i modi).

Grazie per il vostro illuminato parere


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## AlabamaBoy

For question 1.

In English, the difference between *Lei* and *tu* in these cases is not an exact equivalent to Italian, but Lei is indicated in several ways:


a) the use of Mr. or Ms. and the last name (cognome)
b) the use of passive voice
c) the use of impersonal phrases
d) the use of very polite or formal language
e) avoiding speaking of one's personal relationships (they are taboo for someone you would _dare del "Lei"_ 
f) other non verbal cues - respecting personal space, acting as if you were in public (no personal grooming or other things considered impolite in public)

For tu, conversely, it is shown by

a) speaking in conversational English
b) more use of idioms, punctuating speech with jokes or slightly off color references
c) all subjects are fair game
d) freedom to make self deprecating remarks, or slight insults
e) very direct and personal phrasing
f) reducing sentences to only the essential words
g) use of local pronunciation or phrasing (similar to dialects)
h) non verbal cues

(Unfortunately, some people do some from the Lei group and some from the tu group, leading to some confusion.   For example I have had people come right up and touch me while talking, yet use polite language and impersonal forms. This left me bewildered.  In Alabama, a lot of people speak only the local _Southern_ so, they may be very formal while still speaking _Southern. _In certain rural areas in the South, there is no Lei/tu differentiation that I can notice. )

Question 2 

I am not qualified to answer. I always saw "voi" in books but "Lei" in real-life. That seems to be because I lived in Lombardia, Veneto, and Friuli. But I understood books were edited in Rome.


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## federicoft

vale_ca said:


> Domanda 2) traducendo un romanzo dall'inglese in italiano e' meglio usare Lei o voi nei casi a), c) e d)?
> (Ho visto usare entrambi i modi).



Direi decisamente 'Lei'.
Il 'voi' come pronome formale penso si possa ormai definire un meridionalismo.


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## borzov

Voi is as good as any other P.P. but sounds very dowdy. I understand they use it in the South of It a lot but I do not recommend it. Moreover, it is always in dispute whether _voi _is formal or familiar. I hear it used in both manner. 
 
I think _lei_ is much more elegant for the_you _formal. Moreover, even though _loro _ for (_you _plural, formal or not) is a bit awkward, I prefer it to _voi_. 
 
It is time to simply break with the past and get rid of _voi_ once and for all. 
I find it frustrating when I still hear _voi _ used by many people, including people on television and movies. 
Maybe we need a language police in Italy.


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## laratri

federicoft said:


> Direi decisamente 'Lei'.
> Il 'voi' come pronome formale penso si possa ormai definire un meridionalismo.




ho un'amica che usa il voi con suo padre... è meridionale... ma penso che quando si  comincia in un modo è difficile cambiare stile...
tocca aspettare le nuove generazioni...


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## borzov

laratri said:


> ho un'amica che usa il voi con suo padre... è meridionale... ma penso che quando si comincia in un modo è difficile cambiare stile...
> tocca aspettare le nuove generazioni...


 
ciao...sono calabre anche io (pero' abbito negli USA). ricordo che il _voi nel _mio paese venga usato molto. non sentivo mai usare il lei. 
non voglio dare l'impressione che sono contro l'uso meridionale. anzi, mi piace assai il calabrese ed il siciliano, specialmente quando usano molto il passato remoto piu' del passato prossimo come fanno nel nord. "fu una grande persona" o, "disse molte storia" e cosi via. 
ma no mi piace quando si usa il voi perche' fa molta confusione. {even though] e piu' facile ricordare il _voi_ che il _lei._

_(feel free to correct my mediocre italian. i look forward to it)_


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## laratri

borzov said:


> ciao...sono calabre anche io (pero' ab(b)ito negli USA). ricordo che il _voi nel _mio paese venga viene usato molto. non si sentiva mai usare il lei.
> non voglio dare l'impressione che sono contrario all'uso meridionale. anzi, mi piace assai il calabrese ed il siciliano, specialmente quando usano molto il passato remoto piu' del passato prossimo come fanno nel nord. "fu una grande persona" o, "disse molte storia" e cosi via.
> ma non mi piace quando si usa il voi perche' fa molta confusione. {even though] e piu' facile ricordare il _voi_ che il _lei._
> 
> _(feel free to correct my mediocre italian. i look forward to it)_




ti ho corretto un poco, anche se si capisce molto bene ciò che hai detto...


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## kc1005

Whem you say that the "voi" form is old fashioned, what would you use in it's place, "tu"?  If you're asking two people how they're doing, you wouldn't commonly hear "Come *state*"?


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## evrix

nope, if you're asking two people you must say "voi". I was referring to the use of "voi" as a formal speech in case you refer to a single person. nowadays the most common way to be formal to someONE is to say "lei", which would actually mean "she" as a third person...
It's a bit tricky:
in English the pronoun "you" is used both for singular and plural form while in Italian "tu" is referred to a single person and "voi" to two or more persons. Moreover, "lei" is the usual translation for "she". However, in Italian a formal speech can be obtained by referring to "you" as a single person using both "voi" or "lei". The first form is a bit outdated while the second is more common.


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## federicoft

kc1005 said:


> Whem you say that the "voi" form is old fashioned, what would you use in it's place, "tu"?  If you're asking two people how they're doing, you wouldn't commonly hear "Come *state*"?



Absolutely. When addressing two or more people, both formally and informally, _voi_ is not just perfectly fine. Indeed, it is the only pronoun I can think of.

On the previous page we were talking about using _voi_ when addressing (politely) one person. That is an old fashioned usage.


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## darkmatter

Is there ever a time when two people would use "tu" with each other, and then switch back to Lei? (Maybe they had a huge disagreement and want to distance themselves from each other?) Could anyone give an example where this might be possible?

Also, I remember in the first Italian book I ever read, they said that the plural of the formal Lei was Loro (not voi) Does anyone ever use the Loro form still today? 

Thanks!


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## ToWhomItMayConcern

darkmatter said:


> Is there ever a time when two people would use "tu" with each other, and then switch back to Lei? (Maybe they had a huge disagreement and want to distance themselves from each other?)



It would be highly unlikely. However, after a huge disagreement, I think it may actually happen: Two people who are no longer friends but for some reason have to continue to speak to each other may use "lei" instead of "tu." This would be somewhat ironic, since "lei" is known as the "forma di cortesia" (the "courtesy form").



darkmatter said:


> Also, I remember in the first Italian book I ever read, they said that the plural of the formal Lei was Loro (not voi) Does anyone ever use the Loro form still today?



As far as I know, it's obsolete (it might still be in use in some dialects, who knows?) It's still found in the phrase _lor signori_, now only used in a joking way.


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## brian

It happened once when I was on a bus in Rome. The driver and a passenger started arguing pretty intensely, and the passenger switched to _tu_. The sense, then (at least to me), was sort of like, "You're so disagreeable that you don't even deserve to be called _Lei_." Or perhaps she just got so caught up in her high-intensity yelling - which, after all, most people probably only do with friends/family members anyway, I guess - that she switched to _tu_ unconsciously.

However, after some more arguing, the passenger switched to a calmer, quieter, and slower tone, albeit still very intense and direct, and switched back to _Lei_, as if the heated "informal" method was unsuccessful, so now she was trying the more "civilized" method, in the hopes that her message would be clearer and successfully reach the driver. Or it could be that she wanted to just stop the argument, and so by switching back to _Lei_, she was giving it some closure, i.e. taking things full circle.

But yeah, this was all within one conversation/argument. In the case of two parties agreeing to go from _Lei_ to _tu_, I think the only reason they'd ever go back would be after a falling out, as ToWhomItMayConcern said.


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## MünchnerFax

And even in that case, I think it would be extremely unlikely that they switch back.


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## ZazieTheBeast

ToWhomItMayConcern said:


> As far as I know, it's obsolete (it might still be in use in some dialects, who knows?) It's still found in the phrase _lor signori_, now only used in a joking way.



The courtesy form 'loro', especially the expression 'lor signori', is still actually used in very formal environments. For instance, in a first class restaurant the waiters would use it to refer to a group of customers ('lor signori vogliono ordinare' or stuff like that).


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## johngiovanni

It's confusing for us Brits, too!  However, I found this article useful: http://www.locuta.com/forme.htm
I would be grateful if native speakers could check it out for its accuracy.  With regard to your question: " Tipico della* forma di cortesia* è l'uso dei pronomi Lei (scritto con la prima lettera maiuscola, sia per uomini che per donne al singolare), Loro (scritto con la prima lettera maiuscola, al plurale) e Voi (scritto con la prima lettera maiuscola, per uomini e donne). Con il Lei si usa il verbo alla *terza persona singolare*. Con il Loro si usa il verbo alla *terza persona plurale* e con il pronome Voi si usa il verbo alla *seconda persona plurale.*"  I think (from my limited reading) there are regional differences (see http://www.impariamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1519#Shoutbox), and "voi" is used more in Southern Italy. But, obviously, you need to wait for the native Italian speakers to "chime in" on this one.  All I would add is that the first time I was addressed in the polite form - when the receptionist of a hotel in Sorrento spoke to me about a reservation - I was silent for a few seconds before I realised she was addressing me, and then had to "think on my feet" to reply in like kind.


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## LaMezzaItaliana

Ciao tutti,
This is my very first post on here. I have a bit of a general question that I'm hoping to get some help with. I already speak several Romance languages that I've learned in school, but as an American I am still unclear about when I should use Lei and when I should use tu. Since we don't have those distinctions for formal and informal in English, it's been hard for me to know when it is appropriate to stop using Lei and start using tu. Or, when it is too formal to use Lei when first meeting someone, and I should have used tu instead at the very beginning. I just want to make sure I am not being either rude or overly formal. Obviously I would rather be overly formal than rude, but I run into this problem a lot and would love some advice. Mi dispiace per non scrivere in italiano, pero entrambe le lingue sono accetabili qui. Solo voglio capire le regole, se ne ci sono, come il migliore voi le possono esprimere. Grazie a voi!!
Ciao


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## giginho

First of all, the general guidelines:

1. on the job: is better use "LEI" when you speak to someone. In some Company is acceptable to use "TU" between colleagues but never use "TU" in a formal conversation.
2. during a night at the pub: use always "TU" referring to everyone
3. at the restaurant: use "LEI" adressing the waiter 
4. at a shop: use "TU" if it is a casual and informal shop (music shop, jeans shop ecc) but use "LEI" if is a charmy shop (Prada, Valentino, Gucci)
5. in the street: if you are looking for a piece of information and you stop a gentleman, use "LEI". If you are addressing to a boy or a man (not over 40) you can use "TU" if you are of the same age of that man or older. 

If you have any dount, feel free to ask giving examples!


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## Nerino

Mi dispiace per (-) non scrivere in italiano (or: mi scuso/ scusate se non scrivo in italiano), però / ma (so che) entrambe le lingue sono accettate qui. Solo voglio /Voglio solo capire le regole, se ci (ce ne) sono, nel modo migliore in cui voi le potete esprimere (I'm not very sure what you mean here). Grazie a voi / Vi ringrazio!!

And a few links on the subject:

[URL]http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allocuzione

http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php?id=5497&ctg_id=93[/URL]
http://www.locuta.com/forme.htm

Ciao!


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## Paulfromitaly

> *Moderation note*: there are already 66 posts in this thread: Please read them all before adding a further comment.
> Ci sono già 66 messaggi in questa discussione: per favore leggiamoli tutti prima di aggiungere eventualmente il nostro contributo.


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## James Bates

Interesting discussion! It left just one small question unanswered: is it possible to use "Loro" to address _one_ person politely? If so, we would have the following scale (when addressing one person):

tu - informal
Lei - more formal
voi - very formal
Loro - extremely formal


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## AlabamaBoy

I've never heard "loro" for one person. Even addressing more than one person with "Loro" was pretty rare in my experience, but I was in northern Italy.


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## federicoft

I agree with AB. Also, as pointed out by others, "voi" is not a more formal form than "lei": it is an intermediate form between "tu" and "lei", very common in some Southern dialects though not in standard Italian.


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## James Bates

I find that strange. I was watching Disney's Robin Hood and in it Prince John is addressed by his obsequious minister Sir Hiss as "voi". The minister's preferring "voi" over "Lei" is what led me to believe the former was more polite and deferential than the latter.


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## Paulfromitaly

James Bates said:


> I find that strange. I was watching Disney's Robin Hood and in it Prince John is addressed by his obsequious minister Sir Hiss as "voi". The minister's preferring "voi" over "Lei" is what led me to believe the former was more polite and deferential than the latter.



VOI is more formal, that's why you will hardly hear people use it in Northern Italy.
If you carefully read the previous post, it says that "..it's very common in some* Southern dialects* though *not in standard Italian*."


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## federicoft

James Bates said:


> I find that strange. I was watching Disney's Robin Hood and in it Prince John is addressed by his obsequious minister Sir Hiss as "voi". The minister's preferring "voi" over "Lei" is what led me to believe the former was more polite and deferential than the latter.



Oh, that makes sense. Besides being used in Southern dialects, "voi" also has an archaic flavour. In fact, "voi" was the preferred formal pronoun in Medieval or Renaissance Italian. 
I wouldn't say it was more formal than "lei", though. It was just the pronoun it was used back then, and it was replaced by "lei" starting from the 16th Century.

In my previous post I was discussing only about the current usage. Today, "voi" is perceived as dialectal and definitely less deferential than "lei". It is also worth nothing that "voi" is a 2nd person pronoun, so it does imply a more direct, confidential relationship than "lei", which sounds very formal and aloof. It is common in Southern Italy to hear people using "lei" when addressing their peers and switching to "voi" when addressing someone much younger or in a lower social position (i.e. professessor vs. students at university).


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## Paulfromitaly

Che cosa desiderano? This is actually the only context in which you will ever hear "LORO".


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## James Bates

And even there it's used to address more than one person. I guess it can NEVER be used to address one person.


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## Paulfromitaly

James Bates said:


> And even there it's used to address more than one person. I guess it can NEVER be used to address one person.



No, in that case you'd use VOI.


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## James Bates

Sorry, I don't understand you.


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## Mary49

Paulfromitaly said:


> *Che cosa desiderano? *This is actually the only context in which you will ever hear "LORO".


I often hear some people using "*vedano*" or "*chiamino*" or other verb forms referring to "Loro" when they are selling something on TV sales, especially art objects and paintings.


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## voltape

carrickp said:


> In Italian class they taught us "tu" for familiar, "lei" for formal and "voi" when speaking to more than one person. I'm a musician, and I notice that in the libretti of Italian operas up well into the 20th century the "voi" form is used for formal address ("voi siete un gentiluomo") in exactly the same way that "vous" is used in French. The "lei" form is used only rarely, mainly when a lower-ranked person is addressing someone in the nobility in a very, very formal manner. Is the "voi" form used for formal address just a poetic thing, or was it common in speech in earlier times?


After a lot of years I enter this forum. As a matter of fact, I have never studied Italian, yet I have been using daily for half a century, and this thanks to opera.  At the time of The Great Caruso (1951) many young people all over the world wished to imitate Mario Lanza, among which Pavarotti and ...... me! Well I wasn't as successful, yet I managed to sing in the showers to the horror of all my family.  The best part of all, in addition to obtaining a broad operatic culture,  was that I learned Italian (I'm a Peruvian in Peru so my native Spanish helped a lot.) -- back to the discussion of voi-lei, I remember I had an Italian baritone who coached my singing and when I was new in his class, I flaunted my newly-acquired Italian, and of course I used "voi" all the time, as opera characters spoke.  My coach explained me it was obsolete; yet I find all the time "voi" in written Italian!


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## giginho

voltape said:


> , I remember I had an Italian baritone who coached my singing and when I was new in his class, I flaunted my newly-acquired Italian, and of course I used "voi" all the time, as opera characters spoke.  *My coach explained me it was obsolete*; yet I find all the time "voi" in written Italian!



Not so fast, my friend!

Indeed in some part of Italy (such as, the North side of the Boot) "voi" is unusual and a bit obsolete, BUT (there's always a "but") if you go in the South you will find a more frequent usage of "voi" in order to address people older than you or as a formal way of addressing people. It's not rare, when you enter a shop and start talking that the manager ask you: "ma voi di dove siete? Non siete di Napoli/Palermo/Catania/Bari, vero?".

So, do not think that the use of "Voi"  in the direct speech is just a matter of "opera lirica"!


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## Paulfromitaly

> *Moderation note*: there are already 80 posts in this thread: Please read them all before adding a further comment.
> Ci sono già 80 messaggi in questa discussione: per favore leggiamoli tutti prima di aggiungere eventualmente il nostro contributo.


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## Darkicity

If I use voi instead of Lei, would I get weird looks? Especially in the north?


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## AlabamaBoy

If you read the whole thread, you will understand that you risk some weird looks in the north by using essentially southern dialect. But it is more complex than that; that's why you should read the whole thread.

I NEVER heard Voi singular in the north except from an older lady who moved from Palermo to Trieste. I saw it used in comic books and I was a little confused until someone told me they were published in Rome.


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## Paulfromitaly

AlabamaBoy said:


> If you read the whole thread, you will understand


Precisely: please do read the whole thread since so many people took the time to post their contribution.


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