# pronunciation: often [BE: Silent t']



## MonsieurAquilone

Hello all

I was just wondering what is the Queen's English way of pronouncing "often", I have always been under the impression that it sounds like "offin" and not "oftin:, can i have some clarification?


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## Dimcl

I pronounce it "offin".


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## LouisaB

Dimcl said:


> I pronounce it "offin".


 
So do I, except when I'm on my party manners, or giving a speech. Then I say 'of*te*n' - as does the Queen. It depends what you mean by Queen's English!

Louisa


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## Hockey13

MonsieurAquilone said:


> Hello all
> 
> I was just wondering what is the Queen's English way of pronouncing "often", I have always been under the impression that it sounds like "offin" and not "oftin:, can i have some clarification?


 
Dare I ask why you seek a "Queen's" English response?


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## JamesM

The long-running joke in Gilbert & Sullivan's "The Pirates of Penzance" regarding the confusion of "often - meaning frequently" and "orphan - meaning parentless" wouldn't make much sense unless some dialects of British English spoke it without the "t".  I've always wondered, though, if the joke was that it sounded strange to the typical Londoner's ear to hear it pronounced without the "t".  

I hope someone from England weighs in on this.


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## LouisaB

I _am_ English, James!

You're quite right about the Pirates of Penzance - I'd missed that point. The reference is to the supposedly upper-class way of pronouncing short 'o' as 'or' - eg 'orf' instead of 'off'. Prince Charles certainly does do this, and the Queen herself does at times.

So actually, I'd amend my last answer to:

I personally use 'of*te*n' when trying to speak my best. That would be what used to be called 'BBC English' - ie what is perceived as being the most correct.

The Queen, however, might say 'orften'. I've never heard her drop the 't', though. Maybe Victoria did....

Louisa


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## Hockey13

LouisaB said:


> The Queen, however, might say 'orften'. I've never heard her drop the 't', though. Maybe Victoria did....
> 
> Louisa


 
Precisely why I'm fascinated by people who assume the Queen is the ultimate source for proper English.


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## MonsieurAquilone

Well, often places of high establishment throught aristocratic Europe would dictate how a language should be prounounced...by the way, is there a definitive answer in a British English dictionary which outlines the correct proper one?


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## Hockey13

MonsieurAquilone said:


> Well, often places of high establishment throught aristocratic Europe would dictate how a language should be prounounced...by the way, is there a definitive answer in a British English dictionary which outlines the correct proper one?


 
I'm not European, but I don't believe this is necessarily the case in England anymore. To answer your question in as straightforward a sense as I can, there _is_ no "correct proper one." But considering I know what you're trying to ask, I will stop pestering you about semantics and suggest that you pronounce the T even though I have never done so in my life.

*Edit*: I renounce this. I think you should pronounce it as "offen."


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## se16teddy

The Oxford English Dictionary records that Elizabeth I pronounced often without the t, but it doesn't comment on her current successor!  If you don't pronounce the e in often and soften, as I don't, I don't think it makes much difference whether you pronounce the t, because it is hardly audible anyway.


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## MonsieurAquilone

Thank you very much.


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## EmilyD

Growing up in New York City (and its environs) I only heard *"often"* pronounced with a silent "t"...

It seems in Rhode Island, I usually hear the "O*ff**-**t*en" pronunciation.

I understand that both pronunciations are acceptable, which is more common in your neck of the woods  ??

My apologies if there is already a thread addressing this question...I did search, but did not open every thread I found...

Many thanks for any contributions to this query...
_
Nomi_


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## The Scrivener

Hi Nomi,

In BE it is widely pronounced with a silent "t" - "offen".


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## Dimcl

Silent "t" in my world, too.


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## emma42

Both, in my neck of the woods, although my mum used to tell me off for saying "off-ten".


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## Tabac

*I have no reason to believe that it is regional. Far more people do not pronounce the 't', but I think you find those who do pronounce it just about everywhere.*


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## final-intimacy-84

Maybe it is regional, though, because I know of very few people who say it "offen." It is almost always pronounced "of-*t*en where I live.


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## sabbathically

in Chicago they don't pronounce the "T"
but because of my accent, and language understanding, I pronounce the "T".
xD


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## Outsider

> During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in _handsome_ and _handkerchief_, the (p) in _consumption_ and _raspberry_, and the (t) in _chestnut_ and _often_. [...] With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the _t_ in _often_, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as _soften_ and _listen_, the _t_ generally remains silent.
> 
> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language


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## sdgraham

Off-ten seems to occur frequently out here in Oregon. I have no idea why. We didn't say it that way in Chicago, where I was born and raised.


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## kuirl

well, i say "offen"


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## Forero

I rhyme "oft" with "soft" ("t" sound) and "often" with "soften" (no "t" sound).


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## panjandrum

Found at last, in the "awffen" shibboleth


> For dropping pronunciation of t, see Pronounced or not??
> <<And a link to the thread to which today's has just been added>>


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## nzfauna

I use both interchangeably.

Although, interestingly, the other day a friend of mine made fun of me for saying it with the T.  I told it was just another way of saying it.  I had never had anyone question it before.


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## jamesjiao

I was brought up with 'offen'. I find people who are less educated tend to pronounce it as 'often'. These are just my two cents.


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## jess oh seven

I pronounce the "t" in "often" and I have an American accent (although I live in Scotland).


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## EmilyD

Thank you kind *PongoMod*  and to every person who has contributed to these threads.

My confusion is unabated, but I am cheered by the opinions, the history and collective wisdom.

  

_Nomi _( it may be relevant that I was raised by anglophiles...)


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## nzfauna

I think this is interesting. It makes me believe that neither is right nor wrong, that neither is "less educated", and that the two pronunciations currently existing are *merely part of the natural ebb and flow of a living language*.


—Pronunciation note Often was pronounced with a _t_-sound until the 17th century, when a pronunciation without the /t/ came to predominate in the speech of the educated, in both North America and Great Britain, and the earlier pronunciation fell into disfavor. Common use of a spelling pronunciation has since restored the /t/ for many speakers, and today [both pronunciations] exist side by side. Although it is still sometimes criticized, often with a /t/ is now so widely heard from educated speakers that it has become fully standard once again.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


AND

_*Usage Note*_: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in _handsome_ and _handkerchief,_ the (p) in _consumption_ and _raspberry,_ and the (t) in _chestnut_ and _often._ In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the _t_ in _often,_ which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as _soften_ and _listen,_ the _t_ generally remains silent.​_[...]_


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## vallapereza86

I´m from Brighton (Sussex, UK) and I´d always say an almost OFF-turn like word


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## Brioche

The traditional Received Pronunciation of _often_ is /ɒfn/.

It is still the first pronunciation given in dictionaries, including Merriam-Webster.

The pronunciation /ɔːfn/ which sounds like orphan was considered old-fashioned in 1926, if you believe Fowler's Modern English Usage.

Fowler also commented that the often/orphan joke in Pirates of Penzance _"would soon be unintelligible to the audience._"

In 1933 the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary recorded that the sounded t  was frequent in the south of England


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## ewie

Like the NZ chap in post #24, I'm pretty certain I use both randomly  interchangeably


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## pops91710

Merriam-Webster's says it both ways: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/often


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## mplsray

pops91710 said:


> Merriam-Webster's says it both ways: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/often



There is a distinction between the two pronunciations which is worth mentioning, however. The pronunciation with /t/ is preceded by an obelus, \÷\.



> \ˈȯ-fən, ÷ˈȯf-tən\



The dictionary's use of the obelus is explained here (a pdf document), where it says:



> \÷\ The obelus, or division sign, is placed before a pronunciation variant that occurs in educated speech, but that is considered by some to be questionable or unacceptable. This symbol is used sparingly and primarily for variants that have been objected to over a period of time in print by commentators on usage, in schools by teachers, or in correspondence that has come to the Merriam-Webster editorial department.


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## time to speak languages

Hello
 I have a question about the word often, is it possible to pronounce the "t" ? 
Thanks


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## JustKate

Not if you want to pronounce it correctly.  Pronouncing the "t" is what's known as an "over-correction," and it's the kind of over-correction that makes both native and non-native speakers sound as though they don't know what they're doing.

Edit: I should point out that this is the case in American English. It could be different in BE.


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## JustKate

Time to speak, because this has been discussed fairly often )) before, I've combined your thread with one of the earlier threads. If this doesn't answer your questions, you're welcome to ask them in this thread.

JustKate
English Only moderator


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## natkretep

I think the perception is similar in BrE.

The phonetician John Wells lists it (_often_ with /t/) as an example *spelling pronunciation*:


> A speaker who is familiar with the written form of a word but not with its spoken form may, on the basis of the spelling, infer a pronunciation different from the traditional or generally used one. This is spelling pronunciation. Well-known examples include _often _with a t-sound and _clothes _with *-ðz*. In the case of backwards the spelling pronunciation with _w_ has entirely displaced the earlier *ˈbækədz*, *ˈbækɚdz*. In the case of _falcon_, formerly*ˈfɔːkən*, my own pronunciation *ˈfɔːlkən* and the newer *ˈfælkən* represent successive stages of spelling pronunciation, as first the letter l and then the letter a receive their usual ‘value’.


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## Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

It is interesting to note in Hollywood productions, "offen" is the prevalent pronunciation (also in metropolitan areas such as NYC or LA, I presume). However, I have noticed that Southern speakers use "offTen" more frequently. Is that true?


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## ewie

JustKate said:


> Not if you want to pronounce it correctly.  Pronouncing the "t" is what's known as an "over-correction," and it's the kind of over-correction that makes both native and non-native speakers sound as though they don't know what they're doing.
> 
> Edit: I should point out that this is the case in American English. It could be different in BE.


We've learnt to be rather more relaxed about it.  The last burning-at-the-stake for pronouncing the /t/ was in 1647; even cases of complete and utter social ostracization for the crime are now relatively rare.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Hi,
there are multiple threads about the pronunciation of "often," and I don't know this is the right place or not, but I just heard that in 2021 the pronunciation [ɔ:ftən] has increased worldwide than [ɔ:fən] .
Do you agree with that information?
I'd like to know the evidence of historical/chronicle change of the pronunciation of "often."
Can somebody tell the change or unchangeability by the "corpus of English word pronunciation" or something?

Or is there someone who has changed the pronunciation from  [ɔ:fən] to  [ɔ:ftən] by their own?
Thank you.
(In my case, I basically learned it as  [ɔ:fən] and I pronounced so. However, now, when I speak with a native speaker, I'll adapt to choose whichever according to them. Therefore, in my case, the chance of [ɔ:ftən] has increased than it used to be.)


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## natkretep

Many thanks. Where did you hear about the /t/ pronunciation becoming more popular?

Do you really say /ɔ:fən/? That sounds like the Queen? A lot of people have a short vowel instead. I say /ˈɒfən/.


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## dojibear

According the audio clips on this page, AE speakers does not say the T while BE speakers say the T:
often - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

But further down, that page lists both (with/without T) as correct AE pronunciations and correct BE (Collins) pronunciations.
I have no idea which is more common worldwide. I just know that both are correct. 

According to etymonline.com, "often" comes from "oft", in which the T is always pronounced. But "often" has been used since the 1600s.


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## JulianStuart

natkretep said:


> Many thanks. Where did you hear about the /t/ pronunciation becoming more popular?
> 
> Do you really say /ɔ:fən/? That sounds like the Queen? A lot of people have a short vowel instead. I say /ˈɒfən/.



Me too - this has shades of cot-caught merger but I'm not sure that's it.  Certainly the  ɔ: version is what I hear in the "RP of old" when off sounded like awf. I had read somewhere that the Queen's vowels had "opened" (if that's the term) over the yahs years but no news on the t. 

I think I don't sound the t very, well, often, but saying it out loud does not sound unusual, so perhaps I use both, like some others here.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

natkretep said:


> Many thanks. Where did you hear about the /t/ pronunciation becoming more popular?


A Japanese person wrote it in their blog written in Japanese about the pronunciation of "often" with or without "T."
They claimed that they've apparently heard the with-T version much more frequently these days and that it has become the world's trend.
I myself did not believe their story and thought that it was merely their "coincidental" experience. But I wanted to make sure at this language forum.



natkretep said:


> Do you really say /ɔ:fən/? That sounds like the Queen? A lot of people have a short vowel instead. I say /ˈɒfən/.


No.
I just wanted to distinguish the with-T version and the without-T version. I copied and pasted the two pronunciations from an online English textbook written in mainly Japanese.
I'd like to correct them to /ˈɒfən/ and /ˈɒftən/ as in "English definition" of this forum.
Thank you!


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## Aliph

[This question has been added to a very comprehensive previous thread on the same topic.  DonnyB - moderator.]

As I learned English I learned to drop the T in often. Now I heard a native speaker who pronounces it. Are there regional variations ?


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## Mr.Dent

It is definitely much less common for people to pronounce the T where I live. Both are acceptable.


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## Aliph

Well, I read all the posts of this thread and I’m still puzzled.
Apparently both pronunciations are admitted.
When I lived in California, I was very careful to drop the T to avoid the spelling pronunciation mentioned in #37
So I was surprised when I recently heard a person from New Zealand who had lived more then 10 years in the UK who pronounced clearly the T in often. He is an academic.


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## JulianStuart

Don't be puzzled  There is no authority that rules on acceptability (other than the local collective consciousness) and there are many such pronunciation variations in English.


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## dojibear

The WR dictionary has audio samples at the top, showing the pronunciation in different countries.

often - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

In the 2 US audioclips, I hear no T sound. 
In the 3 UK audioclips, I hear a T sound.


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## Aliph

dojibear said:


> The WR dictionary has audio samples at the top, showing the pronunciation in different countries.


Thank you dojibear! I never noticed this great feature.


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