# Practicality of binyanim conjugation



## theunderachiever

My question, in a nutshell, is how useful is it to learn the the binyanim system?

The way I've learned Hebrew up until now has been largely informal. Some study was required, but I began as sort of an experiment to see how much I could learn through as limited an academic approach as I could manage. There have been some drawbacks and benefits, IMO, but upon beginning a more typical method of study in Hebrew, I quickly found myself overwhelmed by the binyanim...I guess you would call it conjugation system. I find myself questioning whether it is practical to learn precisely when and why each root suffers a dropped consonant, an unexpected vowel, consonants getting flipped around (that set of irregularities might actually prove to be worth learning), etc.

It's very interesting, and I think any serious student of Hebrew must learn this to a degree, but to what degree? At what point does studying this cross the line from aiding one in language acquisition to a purely academic exercise more befitting a grammarian or scholar? I realize how open to interpretation this question is and how much it may depend on the speaking proficiency of the student in question, but I think it's general enough to warrant an inquiry. I'm afraid that if I invest too much time in this, I may find my speech suffers as I pause to wonder what happens to the 3rd consonant of this word if I conjugate it in pi'el...or wait, was it pu'al...oh, the second consonant is a 
ה! It's a weak root! Ok, so add the 7, carry the 1...I think I've made my point. 

This is unrelated to my question, but I just wanted to say that although I haven't participated in more than one thread, I feel quite at home here. I've been on a few obscure boards before which left me feeling a bit alienated and resentful of many members who seemed to revel in this idea of some sort of exclusive club. After reading through thread after thread here, I was surprised to see a lot of my own tendencies reflected in a great many members of this forum. There seems to be a deep appreciation for unambiguous use of language (naturally), a deep-seated sense of respect, many analytical while simultaneously intuitive minds, and keen eyes for detail that I feel several may identify as pedantic, but something I identify as precision. Maybe these are qualities that inadvertently draw many toward linguistics. Most important, though, is the courtesy I have seen from nearly every regular member. It's magnificent, refreshing, and I'm not accustomed to seeing so much of it. I feel I am among an extraordinarily like-minded group of individuals and I just wanted you all to know how appreciative I am of how you conduct yourselves and how much I respect the collective intellect I've seen in these threads.

Happy holidays to everyone. I hope you and yours have a wonderful year to look forward to.

Cheers.


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## ystab

In my opinion, an important aspect of language learning is the ability to identify patterns and implement them when you don't already know how a word is written or sounds, especially in Hebrew, which is largely based on roots put in mishqalim (or patterns). If you know the patterns you will find it easier to understand forms, instead of studying them by heart.


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## origumi

If you want to learn Hebrew (or any other Semitic language) you better control the binyanim. Otherwise the language might remain vague.

(I was too lazy to read the whole post, maybe I missed your point).


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## Albert Schlef

You know English. Let's say that in a far away land two people, A and B, are trying to learn English. You're shown two scenes and are asked to predict who of the two is going to make it. Person A is shown reading a story book in English. On the table is a stack of more story books. A grammar book is on the shelf. Person B is shown reading a grammar book. A story book is on the shelf.

Who of the two is going to make it? Person A, of course.

==

 Somebody once told me how he's studying foreign languages: He picks a good grammar book, reads it over, then he puts it *aside*, and reads as many texts in that language as he can get his hands on. His recipe may not suit everybody, but I think it has a point.

You should expose yourself to many texts (or speeches) and let the learning process occur in your brain. When you repeatedly notice, in texts you read/hear, a way certain verbs are conjugated, *then* you should go back to your grammar book and look up that specific subject to consolidate your learning.

===



> This is unrelated to my question, but I just wanted to say that although I haven't participated in more than one thread, I feel quite at home here. [...] It's magnificent, refreshing [...] I just wanted you all to know how appreciative I am of how you [...]



 Watch out. Discussions here are moderated very strictly. Writing about personal feelings is off-topic and will cause your questions to be deleted and their asker to be put in front of a firing squad


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## hadronic

I always see two sets of questions pertaining to binyanim:

- Content: what is the meaning carried by each binyan, what are the relationships between binyanim on the same root, how does it behave as a semantic system : this is a fascinating topic, with lots of literature on it, but this is more for academical purposes. Native do develop an inner feeling of the whole system, but there are still a lot of open questions, and I don't think we'll ever come up to a definitive answer. The classical take on it "Pi'el is intensive, Hif'il is factitive, Hitpa'el is reflexive" is very reductive, there's a lot more to that : transitive, intransitive, inchoative, causative, stative, agentive, passive, reflexive,... 

- Form: how do they conjugate, how do they handle weak roots, etc... : this is a must-learn. In all details and exceptions. Period.
And honestly, even if it looks daunting on the first sight, I find it a lot easier than French or Spanish irregular verbs, or even English irregular verbs. Each
 "class of irregularities" is big enough to not be that "irregular", it's just a subset, which really makes sense on the long run.
Moreover, most of those changes are changes you notice in the entire language: it's not only on verbs, but also on nouns or adjectives. Those are strong underlying phonetically-motivated changes that are hard to ignore. It's of the same nature as, how should you pronounce "-s" / "-ed" in English following voiced or unvoiced consonnants.


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## Drink

Albert Schlef said:


> Somebody once told me how he's studying foreign languages: He picks a good grammar book, reads it over, then he puts it *aside*, and reads as many texts in that language as he can get his hands on. His recipe may not suit everybody, but I think it has a point.



But notice how he does in fact read a grammar book? In my opinion, you definitely need both.


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## hadronic

With most Hebrew story books being non-vocalized, Hebrew is part of those languages (like Japanese and Chinese) that needs a lot of formal learning before feeling confident enough to open a story book. Of course, you could pickup a vocalized text... but selection very is limited.


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Of course, you could pickup a vocalized text... but selection very is limited.



Get yourself one of these <<link removed>> and you're set for life.


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## hadronic

Maybe, but dotted text is, in a way, not _real_ Hebrew...

I wonder... How much undotted texts can you read after years of reading only dotted texts ? Not much, I assume.


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> I wonder... How much undotted texts can you read after years of reading only dotted texts ? Not much, I assume.



I think it would take some getting used to, but it shouldn't be too hard. At that point, you should be familiar with the possibilities.


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## theunderachiever

I don't argue for one minute that binyanim/other aspects of the grammar should be learned.  What I question is whether or not it is wise to focus too much on a system, as a beginner, that has so much fine print.  There are a great many verbs that exist as a result of binyanim which are supposed to produce verbs of a different voice and nature.  There are a lot of consonants which do very strange things when a binyan is applied to a root.

I'm just afraid of becoming too preoccupied with this aspect of Hebrew and lacking an intuitive grasp of the tongue.  I don't want to end up trying to run before I've learned to walk when I'm not convinced I'm crawling yet.  Maybe I'm being told this _is_ crawling.  How much attention is too much attention, is what I'm asking.  Knowledge is never bad, but the wrong knowledge can be distracting if a learner is not equipped to apply the knowledge he sought to gain.

I want to be careful in my approach.  Learning this language efficiently and *well* is immensley important to me.  I'm just a little worried that I'll focus too much on this.  Neglecting grammar is not a concern of mine.  I love grammar.  Grammar texts read like novels to me.

I find it very intriguing and will continue to educate myself, but I am very concerned that I'll learn the words to the song but not the music, if that makes sense.  With that said, if anyone wants to achieve a moderate to advanced amount of ability in a language, I think these sorts of things must be learned.


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## Drink

My impression is that you already know enough to know how much you need to know. Start reading, and when you get to the point that you feel that you want to know some more details about the grammar, then go and find about them.


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## hadronic

There's no set answer to your question, everybody is different and is attracted to different things. Personally, I focused on  the whole binyanim and gzarot (root "diseases") system first thing when I started Hebrew (and more generally, the entire morpho-phonemic system).


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## theunderachiever

Perhaps.  You're probably right.  I think I'm just overly worried because of the role this language will likely play in my life. I just wanted some other perspectives.

hardonic, I know, mon ami 

I ask questions without an empirical right or wrong often to expose myself to avenues of thought I otherwise would not find.  I think asking advice about a subject like this from a group of individuals, more accomplished in language study than I, who undoubtedly have _opinions _on said subject is of worth.  Smart people ask smarter people for their advice.  That's the only way THIS fool has managed this far in life .


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