# Classical Persian: گوینده   گویا   گویان



## Qureshpor

Could you please explain to me the difference in meaning and usage between these three grammatical formations of Persian grammar.

گوینده   گویا   گویان


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## searcher123

گوينده = sayer
گويا =  a person that have ability to say
گويان = saying


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> گوينده = sayer
> گويا =  a person that have ability to say
> گويان = saying



Thank you Morteza. Can you please quote some examples from literature to illustrate the differences?


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## searcher123

ماه امشب در سماء ظاهر نشد.......مست گــویی از رخ ماه تو شد
 شب منـوّرتر ز هـر شــــام دگـــر.......ربّنا گويان جهان زد دست بسر
*شاعر: ناشناس*
---------------------------------
شکــر ديد و عناب و شمع و شــراب...ده از نعمت آبــــاد و مـــــردم خراب
يکي غايب از خود، يکي نيم مست...يکي شعر گويان صراحي به دست
ز ســويي برآورده مطــرب خــــروش....ز ديگــــر سو آواز ســاقي که نوش
*شاعر: سعدي*

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Unfortunately I cannot remember any poem with گوينده and گويا (albeit گويا in above meaning) at the present. ​
​


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## Faylasoof

We did گوينده here.


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## searcher123

And now with گويا

ای دو زلـفـت دراز و بالا هــــم........وی دو لعـلـت نهــــــان و پیــدا هم
شوخ تنها که خواند چشم ترا........چشم تو شوخ هست و رعنا هم
بسته‌ي تـو هزار نادان هست........چـــــه عجــب صدهــــزار دانــا هم
بسته‌ي تست طبـع ناگویـــــا........مـن چـه گـویـــم زبــــــان گویـا هم
*شاعر: سنايي
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* قلم سر سلطان چه نيكو نهفت.....كه تا كارد بر سر نبودش نگفت​ بهـــايم خموشند و گويـــــا بشر.....زبان بسته بهتر كه گويا به شر​ *شاعر: سعدي*​


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> We did گوينده here.



Yes, we did indeed cover "goyandah" in another very recent thread , but you will see that there is a link between this word and the others in this thread!


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## searcher123

Ureca! 

نپيچــد كسي سـر ز فرمان اوي...........نيـــــارد گــذشتن ز پيمـــان اوي​ تو نيز آفريـن كـن كـه گـوينده اي............بــــدو نـــــام جــاويد جوينده اي​ چو بيدار گشتم بجستم ز جاي............چه مايه شب تيره بودم به پاي​*شاعر: فردوسي
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* نگــه كرد دستان ز تخت بلنـد......بپرسيد كاين گل پرستان كيند؟
چنين گفت گوينده با پهلــوان......كه از كاخ مهـــــراب روشن روان​ پرستندگان را سوي گلستان.....فرستــــد همي مـــاه كابلستان
*شاعر: فردوسي*
​ ​


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> ماه امشب در سماء ظاهر نشد.......مست گــویی از رخ ماه تو شد
> شب منـوّرتر ز هـر شــــام دگـــر.......ربّنا گويان جهان زد دست بسر
> *شاعر: ناشناس*
> ---------------------------------
> شکــر ديد و عناب و شمع و شــراب...ده از نعمت آبــــاد و مـــــردم خراب
> يکي غايب از خود، يکي نيم مست...يکي شعر گويان صراحي به دست
> ز ســويي برآورده مطــرب خــــروش....ز ديگــــر سو آواز ســاقي که نوش
> *شاعر: سعدي*
> 
> ------------------------
> Unfortunately I cannot remember any poem with گوينده and گويا (albeit گويا in above meaning) at the present. ​
> ​



Morteza, thank you. These are excellent examples for گویان. Here is an example for گویا

درکار گه  کوزه گری رفتم دوش 
دیدم دو هزار کوزه گویا و خموش

Here is one for  گوینده

اول اردی بهشت ماه جلالی 
بلبل گوینده بر منابر قضبان 

Would you say گوینده here is equivalent to گویان or گویا as shown in the verses quoted?


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## searcher123

To be honest, I cannot understand the meaning of your second poem at all. Sorry to say this, but for me, it is not even a poem too!


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## Faylasoof

The second set of verses (اول اردی بهشت ماه جلالی  etc.) are from *سعدی* and have been discussed in the thread entitled *بلبل گوینده* as referred to above. 

Sorry, are you saying that _Sa3di_ couldn't compose Persian poetry!


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## searcher123

Surely سعدي is one of the biggest Iranian poets and I love his poem very much, but سعدي is not only a poet. He have many artistic stylistic proses too and the above is one them of گلستان. Can you see any poetry Vazn on it?


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## IMANAKBARI

searcher123 said:


> ماه امشب در سماء ظاهر نشد.......مست گــویی از رخ ماه تو شد
> شب منـوّرتر ز هـر شــــام دگـــر.......ربّنا گويان جهان زد دست بسر
> *شاعر: ناشناس*​



*شاعر: سید اعلم

*ماه امشب در سماء ظاهر نشد
 مست گویی از رخ ماه تو شد
 شب منورتر ز هر شام دگر
 ربنا گویان جهان زد دست بسر


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Surely سعدي is one of the biggest Iranian poets and I love his poem very much, but سعدي is not only a poet. He have many artistic stylistic proses too and the above is one them of گلستان. Can you see any poetry Vazn on it?



Morteza Jaan, please don't worry about whether the lines are poetry or not. The word قضبان means شاخ ها .


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## searcher123

Thanks dears, *IMANAKBARI* & *QURESHPOR*, for your clarifications.

@*QURESHPOR
*Now I can understand the prose better  

اول ارديبهشت ماه جلالي است. بلبل بر روي شاخسار درخت مي‌خواند

So the meaning of گوينده in above prose is گويان, not گويا.


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## Faylasoof

searcher123 said:


> Surely سعدي is one of the biggest Iranian poets and I love his poem very much, but سعدي is not only a poet. He have many artistic stylistic proses too and the above is one them of گلستان. Can you see any poetry Vazn on it?



Yes I do realise Sa3di used highly stylised prose too but now we are talking of poetry not prose!  

This is the rest where you can see the rhyme:

اول اردیبهشت ماه جلالی
بلبل گوینده بر منابر قضبان
بر گل سرخ از نم اوفتاده لآلی
همچو عرق بر عذار شاهد غضبان

... and btw,  گوینده here shouldn't be translated as _saying / speaking_ but rather _chirping / singing_. We've already discussed in *this thread*!


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Thanks dears, *IMANAKBARI* & *QURESHPOR*, for your clarifications.
> 
> @*QURESHPOR
> *Now I can understand the prose better
> 
> اول ارديبهشت ماه جلالي است. بلبل بر روي شاخسار درخت مي‌خواند
> 
> So the meaning of گوينده in above prose is گويان, not گويا.



Is it possible to offer an explanation of some sort why you think that here گوینده means گویان and not گویا. 

In  خیام's couplet:

در صومعه و مدرسه و دیر و کنشت 
ترسنده ز دوزخ اند و جویا ی بهشت  

can we change  ترسنده to ترسا or ترسان and  جویا to جوینده or جویان ?


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## searcher123

Faylasoof said:


> Yes I do realise Sa3di used highly stylised prose too but now we are talking of poetry not prose!
> 
> This is the rest where you can see the rhyme:
> 
> اول اردیبهشت ماه جلالی
> بلبل گوینده بر منابر قضبان
> بر گل سرخ از نم اوفتاده لآلی
> همچو عرق بر عذار شاهد غضبان
> 
> ... and btw,  گوینده here shouldn't be translated as _saying / speaking_ but rather _chirping / singing_. We've already discussed in *this thread*!



I know we are going out of the topic, sorry, I will not continue; I promise! Just for my last argument: this is just a rhythm, not a rhyme. If it is a poet, can you tell me what is the type of the poet, please? غزل, رباعي,مثنوي, دوبيتي, etc.?


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## Faylasoof

searcher123 said:


> I know we are going out of the topic, sorry, I will not continue; I promise! Just for my last argument: this is just a rhythm, not a rhyme. If it is a poet, can you tell me what is the type of the poet, please? غزل, رباعي,مثنوي, دوبيتي, etc.?



Not quite sure what you mean by this! There are rhymed verses here!

Well, it would be called a quatrain (رباعي) that by itself can be a poem or it can be a stanza within a longer poem consisting of four lines which usually follow the following rhyming schemes: abab, abba, abcb, aabb, or aaba  
These verses of _Sa3dii_ fall in the first scheme of a quatrain (رباعي) : abab i.e. lines 1 and 3 rhyme with each other as do lines 2 and 4 in turn rhyme together.

Some extra info about the English equivalents or _near equivalents_ for the terms you mention: غزل = sonnet; رباعي = quatrain; مثنوي = mathnavi / masnavi (no real English equivalent); دوبيتي = couplet.


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## searcher123

Faylasoof said:


> Not quite sure what you mean by this! There are rhymed verses here!
> 
> Well, it would be called a quatrain (رباعي) that by itself can be a poem or it can be a stanza within a longer poem consisting of four lines which usually follow the following rhyming schemes: abab, abba, abcb, aabb, or aaba
> These verses of _Sa3dii_ fall in the first scheme of a quatrain (رباعي) : abab i.e. lines 1 and 3 rhyme with each other as do lines 2 and 4 in turn rhyme together.
> 
> Some extra info about the English equivalents or _near equivalents_ for the terms you mention: غزل = sonnet; رباعي = quatrain; مثنوي = mathnavi / masnavi (no real English equivalent); دوبيتي = couplet.



Thank you very much for your equivalents. Really useful for me. Albeit I think the definition of رباعي for us is a bit different of yours. As far as I know, the رباعي rhyming scheme is just aaba, not abab, however, I should confess that I'm not a pro in poetry.

Some others are:
غزل=aababa
مثنوي=aabbcc
قطعه=abcbdb
دوبيتي=aaba
قصيده=abbcca


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