# die seit Jahren dem Jugendwahn verfallen ist



## candel

Hi,

In an article showing Sharon Stone "ohne Make-up" I read...Noch vor Kurzem präsentierte sich die Schauspielerin, die seit Jahren  dem Jugendwahn verfallen ist, glamourös auf der Fashion Week in Mailand  (s. kl. Foto

What could this expression mean? That she has for years been smitten by the desire for youth?

Danke sehr fuer die Hilfe..


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## Frank78

candel said:


> Hi,
> That she has for years been smitten by the desire for youth?



Yes, "Wahn" describes a strong desire, hope or belief up to the state of delusion.


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## candel

Great. Thanks Frank.


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## fdb

candel said:


> smitten by the desire for youth?



I do not think this quite captures what is intended. Jugendwahn is formed on the pattern of Größenwahn "delusion of grandure". So you might try something like "delusion of youthfulness", or even "youthitis".


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## Frank78

fdb said:


> I do not think this quite captures what is intended. Jugendwahn is formed on the pattern of Größenwahn "delusion of grandure". So you might try something like "delusion of youthfulness", or even "youthitis".



It has not to be a medical indication. Translations like "mania" or "obsession" are fine, too.


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## fdb

The point of the quotation is not that she desires to be young, but that she deludes herself into thinking she is young.


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## perpend

It's really a fine line, actually. Maybe "fallen under the spell of a craze to be young". Okay, that that doesn't sound great. 

"delude" is a strong word, but I see both sides of this. So I agree with both Frank and fdb.


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## exgerman

She's succumbed to the mania for youthfulness.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> The point of the quotation is not that she desires to be young, but that she deludes herself into thinking she is young.


I agree, the passage could be read this way. Yet, this is not how the word is normally used. "Obsession with youthfulness" (Frank) or "mania for youthfulness" (exgerman) are possible interpretations as well and they correspond to the usual meaning of _Jugendwahn_. Your association with _Größenwahn _is slightly misleading.


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## perpend

berndf said:


> I agree, the passage could be read this way. Yet, this is not how the word is normally used. "Obsession with youthfulness" (Frank) or "mania for youthfulness" (exgerman) are possible interpretations as well and they correspond to the usual meaning of _Jugendwahn_.



But neither "obsession with youthfulness" nor "mania for youthfulness" are idiomatic English. Sorry, Bernd.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> But neither "obsession with youthfulness" nor "mania for youthfulness" are idiomatic English. Sorry, Bernd.


I don't think they were offered by Frank and exgerman as translations but rather as explanations. If you asked me for a translation, I would offer "obsession with youth" (and that is certainly idiomatic).


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## perpend

"obsession with youth" is very ambiguous and creepy, bernd, sorry to say. It's not idiomatic.


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## candel

Surely the sense is that she has given way to the trend of trying to look forever young...she is not deluded but seeks through make-up to maintain an illusion. She is not deluded but seeks to deceive you might say or you might just say she is just playing the game of being a star. The writer is merely saying then that she has succumbed to the ubiquitous trend of striving to look young.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> "obsession with youth" is very ambiguous and creepy, bernd, sorry to say. It's not idiomatic.


You may not like it. But there are too many attestations of the expression to call it "not idiomatic". Here is an example example and this is a context where the term _Jugendwahn_ fits. Here is another one from the other side of the pond.

By the way: _Jugendwahn _is a creepy thing.


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## Dan2

perpend said:


> But neither "obsession with youthfulness" nor  "mania for youthfulness" are idiomatic English. Sorry, Bernd.





perpend said:


> "obsession with youth" is very ambiguous and creepy, bernd, sorry to say. It's not idiomatic.


These criticisms don't resonate with me.

First of all, I don't see anything particularly deviant in the phrases in question.  They could easily have been chosen by a native speaker of English in an attempt to capture the meaning of the German phrase.

Secondly, even if the phrases _were _non-native-sounding (they're not), that wouldn't be relevant here.  We're not attempting to produce the definitive English translation of a great work of German literature.  People are simply trying to express how they understand a phrase from a German news article, and they've done that, in my opinion, very well.


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## exgerman

Dan2 said:


> These criticisms don't resonate with me.
> 
> First of all, I don't see anything particularly deviant in the phrases in question.  They could easily have been chosen by a native speaker of English in an attempt to capture the meaning of the German phrase.
> 
> Secondly, even if the phrases _were _non-native-sounding (they're not), that wouldn't be relevant here.  We're not attempting to produce the definitive English translation of a great work of German literature.  People are simply trying to express how they understand a phrase from a German news article, and they've done that, in my opinion, very well.



This resonates with me.  It's crazy to expect that a full explanation of the implications of a German phrase will result in an elegant English expression.

What I try to do is explain the German----to point out that Jugend means youthfulness here, not youth, and that Wahn states that there is an element of insanity in the starlet's desire for youthfulness. I can't tell what use the original poster wants to make of this information. I can't tell what subset is relevant to his translation needs. And so I can't produce an "elegant English translation". That's the original poster's job.


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## berndf

exgerman said:


> ...to point out that Jugend means youthfulness here, not youth, and that Wahn states that there is an element of insanity in the starlet's desire for youthfulness.


I agree that this is meant. I'd just like to point out that the word pair _youth_ and _youthfulness_ exists in German, too. If I had to translate obsession with youthfulness into German I would chose _Jugendlichkeitswahn_ and not _Jugendwahn_.


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## perpend

berndf said:


> I agree that this is meant. I'd just like to point out that the word pair _youth_ and _youthfulness_ exists in German, too. If I had to translate obsession with youthfulness into German I would chose _Jugendlichkeitswahn_ and not _Jugendwahn_.



How do you differentiate between "Jugendlichkeitswahn" and "Jugendwahn", Bernd?


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## berndf

perpend said:


> How do you differentiate between "Jugendlichkeitswahn" and "Jugendwahn", Bernd?


I wouldn't. I would just say that _Jugendlichkeitswahn_ is more precise and more logical. This was the reason why exgerman chose _youthfulness_ rather than_ youth_. But since the same "imprecision" exists in the German word as well, so I think it would be OK to say _youth_ even if _youthfulness_ is semantically more accurate.


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## Frank78

exgerman said:


> What I try to do is explain the German----to point out that Jugend means youthfulness here, not youth, and that Wahn states that there is an element of* insanity* in the starlet's desire for youthfulness.



Interestingly, "Wahn" and "Wahnsinn" are not etymologically related.

http://www.sgipt.org/gipt/psypath/et_wahn0.htm


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## candel

Is it not more that in the German the insanity is an external force that drives starlets...as if she and others fall under its spell?


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## ABBA Stanza

berndf said:


> But since the same "imprecision" exists in the German word as well, ...


Good point, Bernd. I presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that someone could be accused of suffering from _Jugendwahn_ for a number of reasons, including (for example) ...

a) ... someone who undergoes an excessive amount of beauty treatment in order to look younger.
b) ... an older person who dresses inappropriately for their age (e.g., by wearing clothes designed for young people).
c) ... an older person who acts inappropriately for their age (e.g., engaging in activities that are normally reserved for young people).
d) ... someone who chooses partners much younger than themselves.
...

In addition, I found out from searching the web that _Jugendwahn_ is often used to describe excessive discrimination in favor of younger people (e.g., company looking to recruit new employees).

In all these cases, "obsession with youth" would also be appropriate. However, I'm not at all sure that replacing "youth" with "youthfulness" results in a better "fit" in every case. From my point of view, it's just minor detail that doesn't matter much in practice.

Cheers
Abba


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## berndf

candel said:


> Is it not more that in the German the insanity is  an external force that drives starlets...as if she and others fall  under its spell?


The verb _verfallen_ suggests that interpretation indeed.


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## berndf

ABBA Stanza said:


> In addition, I found out from searching the web that _Jugendwahn_ is often used to describe excessive discrimination in favor of younger people (e.g., company looking to recruit new employees).
> 
> In all these cases, "obsession with youth" would also be appropriate. However, I'm not at all sure that replacing "youth" with "youthfulness" results in a better "fit" in every case. From my point of view, it's just minor detail that doesn't matter much in practice.


I absolutely agree with you Abba. This is the context where _Jugendwahn _as opposed to _Jugendlichkeitswahn_ properly belongs which is quite different from the context of the OP.


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## candel

Youth and youthfulness are not always interchangeable.

I spent my youth in daydreams. I spent the time of being young in dreaming.
I spent my youthfulness in daydreams. I spent that quality of being or feeling young in dreaming. Though you could express youthfulness as not being physically young necessarily.


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