# 頂けないでしょうか



## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Hello everyone, 皆様、こんにちは。☺️

A Japanese friend told me that the best way to write: "May I please suggest a meeting?" in a formal situation, would be the following:
『会議を提案させていただけ*ない*でしょうか。』

Why is 『頂け*ない*』in the negative form here? 
It sounds quite counter-intuitive, as the English translation doesn't include a negative form: "May I please suggest a meeting?". 🤔

Or is the negative form of『頂け*ない*』here a way to show humility, indirectness and politeness? 
➡️ If so, what would be the name of such a negative form in Japanese? 🤔 

The full context / sentence is the following:
『遠隔会議を提案させていただけないでしょうか。
ご都合が悪い場合は遠慮なくお知らせください。』

As the context is formal, the goal is to be not too direct, and to show deference, humility and politeness.
Moreover, the goal is to give alternatives to the recipient. Indeed, Westerners can be quite direct in their daily correspondence, whereas in Japan, *it is ill-advised to corner someone in order to get an answer from this same person.* 😰 ➡️ This way, I want to give the chance/the alternative to the recipient if this suggestion/question to say no. 🙂

If you have any better alternatives, please do not hesitate to let me know either. 😉

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Why do you say "why* not *use the negative form?" instead of "you may use the negative form." in English?

What do you call this kind of "rhetorical question" or something?


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## Kico

I believe that you understand Japanese pretty much and hope these two Japanese sites may help you.

”「*させていただけないでしょうか*」は、*相手に許可を求める言葉*です。…したがって「させていただく」と一方的に言うのは不適切ですが、「させていただけないでしょうか」と目上の人から自分の行為に許可をもらうときに使用することが可能です。”
「いただけないでしょうか」は失礼？意味と敬語、用法、漢字、類語、英語を解説

”…「Vますか」は一次的には聞き手の意向をたずねているだけなので、勧誘（提案）の色合いが表面化しません。「Vませんか」は聞き手の意向をたずねながら、「聞き手がそうしてくれるとよい」という話し手の願望も表わすので、積極的な勧誘（提案）になります。”
日本語 文法 Vませんか：解説

提案させていただけますか
提案させていただけ*ません*か（*ない*でしょうか）

I could not find how we call this kind of negative form, but it may similar to your saying.
Won't you please...
Will you please...

提案させていただけますか (May I suggest) or 提案したいと思います（I'd like to suggest) can be alternatives🤔.


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## gengo

TheUnitedStatesOfEurope said:


> Or is the negative form of『頂け*ない*』here a way to show humility, indirectness and politeness?



That's right.  The negative form implies that you are assuming the other person will say no, so it makes your request more polite.  That is, the literal translation is something like "I probably wouldn't be allowed to suggest a remote meeting, right?"

Of course, in real life, we don't really make such assumptions, but this is just a way of being polite, so that the request doesn't sound too brusque.


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## Flaminius

I probably shouldn't meddle with the choice of words by your friend given that no context has been given in this thread, but 提案する isn't the verb I'd use.  I'd probably say: 打ち合わせ/ミーティングをお願いできませんでしょうか。

The question of this thread has been about the negative element for the main verb.  Changing the above to an affirmative sentence, the paraphrased version, お願いできますでしょうか, sounds more ingratiating than the negative.  Why?  The affirmative version assumes that the answer would be a yes.


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Thank you so much everyone. m(_ _)m
I'm learning loads here. 🤯

@SoLaTiDoberman さん : So, it is indeed a rhetoric form to ask permission. All is clear now. 👌
I suspected it, but I was too afraid to write something insulting to someone important. 😰 It would have been the ultimate (and quite silly, because easily avoidable) diplomatic faux-pas. 😅 The negative form led me to think that it would not convey my intentions, or worse, be interpreted in a bad/odd way by the recipient. 😰

@Kico さん, thank you so much for the links. 😊 Very informative stuff. 👌
提案させていただけますか (May I suggest) or 提案したいと思います（I'd like to suggest), may be less polite, as they don't have a negative form, right? As you are a native, do you see a nuance here? A boss or someone important (diplomat, emissary, customer, etc.) should be always addressed with the negative form. Right?

@gengo さん, thank you very much for the very clear explanation. That was a perfect clarification. 👌

@Flaminius さん, 打ち合わせをお願いできませんでしょうか。is a great alternative (I'll keep it for later use 😋) , although I grant you that 打ち合わせ sounds more logical, however, doesn't it sound counter-productive: it is polite because of the negative form, but also quite direct and self-assertive? 提案する indicates a mere suggestion + there is the use of the negative form. This show extra deference, while still being forthcoming. Do you see it like that too? 🤔

As for the context, well there isn't much, because the email is very short and asks simply for a meeting with this person.  🙂

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺


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## KLAUSED

提案する doesn't collocate well with 会議 hence Flaminius' comment. 会議の開催を提案する sounds more natural but I don't think it fits the context.


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## Flaminius

TheUnitedStatesOfEurope said:


> [お願いする] is polite because of the negative form, but also quite direct and self-assertive? 提案する indicates a mere suggestion + there is the use of the negative form.


I know _suggestion_ entails a humble attitude in English, but not so in Japanese.  That is, suggestion and 提案 aren't really on the same level of politeness.  I preferred お願いする in the sentence because it is suppliant to 提案する, which comes across rather obtrusive.  Unless you and your customer have agreed to hold a meeting and you are now proceeding to fix a date (具体的な日付は、21日を提案させていただけないでしょうか), you must be, in a formal written Japanese, a humble supplicant without expectations if a meeting is even possible.  In contrast, 提案 refers to a plan that involves both the speaker and the listener.  Who are you to tell me what to do?  Just politely state your need and wait for me to grant or deny your wish.

I think politeness is oftentimes expressed in Japanese by shunning reference to the second person, but this will be a lengthy discussion for another thread.


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

@KLAUSED さん、 @Flaminius さん，thank you so much. 
I learned again loads.  🤯

*On a separate cross-cultural note | 異文化の注釈 : *

I keep being amazed every day how the Japanese language has been finding new ways in showing politeness and respect. 🤯

In Western countries, using a *negative form* tends to be avoided, because it leaves the recipient with either the temptation to say: "no" 😕, or the temptation to say something like: "Well, obviously you should! We're having this email correspondence to meet, right?! Otherwise you're wasting my time young man!" 😅 In the West, too much politeness is also seen as suspicious (hidden intentions) or as being obsequious. In Western countries, the notions of: 『温良恭倹譲、顔を立てる、 服従 、敬意』have no direct equivalence or are more loosely applied. ➡️ No wonder Japan is the country of politeness, par excellence 😊. 🥇 🏆 🥇

The nuances between 提案する and お願いする is a good example of that too. 👌

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺


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## Flaminius

Having said:


> The affirmative version assumes that the answer would be a yes.


I am probably great deal to blame for cultural clichés in the thread.  I must insist, however, cultural comparison should defer to linguistic comparison.  The negative adds a jussive nuance in the question.  Formal uses like 頂けないでしょうか and お願いできませんでしょうか are hard to appreciate the nuance, so let's compare an affirmative and a negative in their simplest form.

Suppose someone is offering you an apple:
Afr: りんご、食べる?
Neg: りんご、食べない?

Unless these utterances are echoing (repeating part of what the listener has just said), they are understood thus:
Afr: Will you eat the apple?
Neg: Would you want to eat the apple?

The latter additionally has a nuance of "I want you to eat, by the way".

What I have said above is a thin layer beneath the politeness issues I previously discussed, and above the formal cut-and-dry syntax.  Sorry to confuse you with many posts but it has been hard to put into words.


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## Kico

If I am speaking to someone important, I would use a negative form to be safe.🤔


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

@Kico thank you very much for the confirmation. 🙂

To be even more respectful and polite, should I add 御, in front of 遠隔会議, such as in: 御遠隔会議お願いできますでしょうか ?  🤔 

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺👌


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## Kico

Dear 🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺:

We don't add 御, in front of 遠隔会議🙄, although we add 御 in front of 主人; 御主人（your or someone's husband), 挨拶; 御挨拶 (greetings) etc...😐

Please add を after 遠隔会議 →　遠隔会議"を”お願いできますでしょうか


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

Kico said:


> Dear 🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺:
> 
> We don't add 御, in front of 遠隔会議🙄, although we add 御 in front of 主人; 御主人（your or someone's husband), 挨拶; 御挨拶 (greetings) etc...😐
> 
> Please add を after 遠隔会議 →　遠隔会議"を”お願いできますでしょうか



@Kico さん、Thank you so much for the explanation. 👌 敬語が難しいです。😭

Regarding を I know that I have to add it. 😋
I forgot it earlier because of a too quick copy/paste. #注意散漫な  😅  🙈
Thank you very much for your vigilance. ☺️ 👌

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺


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