# Plural and Singular



## Hailed

Okay so I'm learning on a self-study course, and so far I've been doing alright figuring the stuff out but once I hit the plural and singular section I sort of got lost.




Heres a few examples:

ippon no hana (one flower?)
nambonka no hana (group of flowers?)

hitotsu no me (one eye?)
futatsu no me (two eyes?)

ippiki no inu (one dog?)
nambikika (group of dogs?)



Now what Im wondering is, how do you know which ones to use where? Whats the difference between ippiki, hitotsu, ippon and the difference between nambonka, futatsu, and nambikika?


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## Captain Haddock

You know how in English, certain things need "counting words" to be numbered? For example:
5 cups of water 
10 head of cattle
a cluster of grapes

In Japanese, _all_ nouns are counted this way, using "counter words".

"Ippon" means "one long thing". "Hon" is "long thing", and it combines with "ichi" (one) into "ippon", sort of a contraction since it's easier to say than "ichi hon".

Anyway, you can't just say "one flower". You have to say literally "one long thing of flower(s)".

Also, most counter words combine with the Sino-Japanese numbers (ichi, ni, san...) but some combine with the older Japanese numbers (hito, futa, mitsu ...)

ippiki = ichi + hiki, "small animal"
hitotsu = hito + tsu, "generic thing"


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## SpiceMan

The only way is to memorize.

other counters: 
- nin for people: san nin (3 people) juu nin (10 people), exceptions: hitori (one person) futari (2 people)
- satsu for books: ichi + satsu = issatsu, nisatsu, sansatsu, etc.
- wa for birds: ichiwa, niwa, sanwa...
- ko for small things, such as apples, onigiri...: ikko, niko, sanko...
- hai for cups: ippai, nihai, sanbai...
- mai for flat things such as sheets of paper, shirts, etc: ichimai, nimai, sanmai...
- dai for home appliances such as computers, tv box, etc: ichidai, nidai, sandai
- hako for boxes: hitohako, futahako, sanhako/sanpako
- kakoku for countries: ikkakoku, nikakoku, sankakoku
- hon for small long things such as bottles, cigarrettes, etc: ippon, nihon, sanbon...

there are zillions of counters, even japanese people don't know them all.


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## Hailed

Thanks a lot you two!


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## Captain Haddock

May I respectfully correct SpiceMan, in that the box counter is pronounced "bako" for one, two, and three.


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## Flaminius

Captain, could I prevail upon you to beg to differ?

一箱 --- hitohako
二箱 --- futahako
三箱 --- sambako/sampako
四箱 --- yonhako
五箱 --- gohako
...... etc.

Flaminius


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## Outsider

These are called measure words.


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## s_a_n_t_i

Let me add some few more 数詞 (suushi → measure words)

～部〔ぶ〕 To count books, magazines, etc.
～冊〔さつ〕 To count newspapers, pamphlets, documents, etc.
～頭〔ぶ〕 To count big animals, like a lion, a cow, etc.
～羽〔わ〕 To count birds, animals with feathers.
～軒〔けん〕To count houses, stores, etc.
～戸〔こ〕To count houses.
～棟〔とう〕To count apartments, hospitals, places with lots of rooms
～台〔だい〕To count electronic stuff, TV's, phones, also cars, taxies, etc.
～隻〔せき〕To count ships (to count boats, we use ～そう).
～機〔き〕To count airplanes.
～脚〔きゃく〕To count domestical stuff with legs, such as a table, a chair, etc. (Nowadays it's common to hear also 「ひとつ、ふたつ…」)
～足〔そく〕To count something that you use in your feet. (Shoes, socks, etc)
～膳〔ぜん〕To count hashi's (chopsticks)

I'm afraid to tell you that there's no rule for this, you just have to memorize them as you learn new words. But don't be dissapointed, if you don't remember them, you can use 「ひとつ、ふたつ、etc」 and be understood as well.

Best regards.
Peace.
Santi.


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## AesSedai

May I also point out that, in general, the counter goes *after *the noun it qualifies. 
For example, "Kasa ga sanbon arimasu," "Hon o nansatu kaimasita ka?" etc.
This is particularly important in contrasting situations like "Kono nihon no pen o kaimasita." vs. "Kono pen o nihon kaimasita."  
"Kono nihon no pen o kaimasita." translates as "(I) bought these two pens." whereas "Kono pen o nihon kaimasita." translates as "(I) bought two (units) of this pen."  
In the first case, you may have bought a red and a black pen. In the second case, you have bought two of the same type, color, shape, make, etc.

Also note that, as a rule, counters are never followed by particles when they are used to 'count' objects (i.e., if they answer or ask questions like "how many," "how long," "how much," etc.)

As a final reminder, please remember that the counter for birds (and rabbits) is "itiwa, niwa, sanBA, yonwa, gowa, rokuwa, shichiwa, hachiwa, kyuuwa, jiPPa" and the question word is "NanBA".


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## Flaminius

AesSedai said:


> As a final reminder, please remember that the counter for birds (and rabbits) is "itiwa, niwa, sanBA, yonwa, gowa, rokuwa, shichiwa, hachiwa, kyuuwa, jiPPa" and the question word is "NanBA".



Wa is a very unstable counter.  There are several numbers that have alternate forms.

ichiwa, niwa, sanwa/samba, yonwa/yomba, gowa
rokuwa, shichiwa/nanawa, hachiwa, kyūwa, jūwa/jippa
Cf. Japanese words can never have an "n" immediately before "b", "p" or "m."  In such a case, "n" regularly turns into "m."
Jippa is increasingly becoming obsolete.


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## AesSedai

Flaminius said:


> Cf. Japanese words can never have an "n" immediately before "b", "p" or "m."  In such a case, "n" regularly turns into "m."
> Jippa is increasingly becoming obsolete.



The じっ form for 10 in 助数値 compounds is certainly becoming more and more uncommon.  
As for the 'n' in front of 'b', 'p', 'm', it will largely depend on the transliteration method used.  Since ん has actually 3 different pronunciations (/n/, /m/, and /ng/) depending on context, one is free to represent it differently.  I, personally, prefer the Spanish ñ to represent ん, but that is not a common notation.


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## Flaminius

By the way,
*助数値
Ok助数詞


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## AesSedai

I stand corrected.... That's what I meant to write.


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## Captain Haddock

Flaminius said:


> Cf. Japanese words can never have an "n" immediately before "b", "p" or "m."  In such a case, "n" regularly turns into "m."



Anyone with a decent grasp of Japanese phonetics will know how to pronounce ん in any situation, so the Roman notation is unimportant and entirely up the writer in my view.  AesSedai's trick of writing it as ñ is rather clever, and negates the need for an apostrophe before vowels.



Flaminius said:


> Jippa is increasingly becoming obsolete.



All the more reason for me to remember it. Learning details like that makes Japanese more fun and impresses the natives.


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## cucu

Wow! Thanks my friend. And also one more question. We say in English 2 cars. But in Japanese, if there isn't any difference between singular and plural, we can say ni kuruma. Right?


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## cucu

Wow! Thanks my friend. And also one more question. We say in English 2 cars. But in Japanese, if there isn't any difference between singular and plural, we can say ni kuruma. Right?


Moderation Note
Five posts including this one have been moved from a thread that started on a different topic.


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## jorge_val_ribera

xxxx

As for your second question: no. You have to use what's called a *counter*. There are specific counters for different things and you have to choose the right one.


I think the counter for vehicles is 台　(dai). "2 cars" would be ２台の車 (nidai no kuruma).


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## Cereth

Nidai kuruma = two cars
I think here "の" -no- is not necessary...


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## Cereth

Nidai kuruma = two cars
I think here "の" -no- is not necessary...


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## jp_fr_linguaphile

Cereth said:


> Nidai kuruma = two cars
> I think here "の" -no- is not necessary...


Actually の in this case is obligatory.  You can say 
kuruma ni dai," however.  Especially, when you are making a list of items along with their quantities.


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## jp_fr_linguaphile

Cereth said:


> Nidai kuruma = two cars
> I think here "の" -no- is not necessary...


Actually の in this case is obligatory.  You can say 
kuruma ni dai," however.  Especially, when you are making a list of items along with their quantities.


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## jp_fr_linguaphile

In Japanese, although pluralization is mostly optional, it is understood through context.  For example, 私に友達が二人います。(watashi ni tomodachi ga futari imasu.)  I have two friends.  With numbers it is obvious you mean plural.  Take this example: あそこに車がたくさんあります。(asoko ni kuruma ga takusan arimasu.)  There are many cars over there.  

Here's another example: 私は像が好きです。(watashi wa zou ga suki desu.)  I like elephants.  Of course, if you said あそこの像が好きです。(asoko no zou ga suki desu.) it would be understood through situational context whether you like those elephants over there or that elephant over there. 

I think you are getting the idea of what I am saying.


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## jp_fr_linguaphile

In Japanese, although pluralization is mostly optional, it is understood through context.  For example, 私に友達が二人います。(watashi ni tomodachi ga futari imasu.)  I have two friends.  With numbers it is obvious you mean plural.  Take this example: あそこに車がたくさんあります。(asoko ni kuruma ga takusan arimasu.)  There are many cars over there.  

Here's another example: 私は像が好きです。(watashi wa zou ga suki desu.)  I like elephants.  Of course, if you said あそこの像が好きです。(asoko no zou ga suki desu.) it would be understood through situational context whether you like those elephants over there or that elephant over there. 

I think you are getting the idea of what I am saying.


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## Flaminius

jp_fr_linguaphile said:


> Here's another example: 私は像が好きです。(watashi wa zou ga suki desu.)  I like elephants.



Elephant is 象.  像 is statue, image or shape.

By the way, I think a Japanese noun is to be interpreted as a group of something.  Contexts may narrow the number of the members contained in a group to 1.


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