# Fair/honest



## ThomasK

How do you translate these phrases in your languages please? I am mainly concerned with the adjective though:

1. *Fair *trade
2. An *honest *person (you can rely on him/her, not false)
3. The government treats those person *unfairly/ unjustly*.
4. *Honestly *said, ... (frankly seems more like openly, so I consider it different)
5. *Injustice *
6. *Fair play
*
The funny/ curious ;-) thing is that some languages seem to use three or four different words. And I also see different roots: *honour*, *justice*, and to *'fair *[nice] (weather)'. But I am often inclined to think that semantically related concepts will show up in etymologically related words. Untrue of course. But OK, I am looking forward to your answers!


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## ThomasK

Dutch: 
1. *Eerlijke *handel
2. *Eerlijk *(eer, honour)
3. *Oneerlijk *(not according to the rules), *onrechtvaardig*.
4. *Eerlijk *gezegd
5. *ONrechtvaardigheid* (where the word 'recht', right, turns up - we link the word 'justice' to 'right')
6. *Fair *play (eerlijk spel).

So we have two roots: *honour *and *right/ justice*.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

1. In this context, «νόμιμο» ('nomimo, _n._)--> _legitimate_; Classical adj. «νόμιμος, -η, -ον» ('nŏmīmŏs, _m._/'nŏmīmē, _f._/''nŏmīmŏn, _n._)--> _observant of law, legal, legitimate_. From the ancient masculine noun «νόμος» ('nŏmŏs, 'nomos in Modern Greek)--> _law_ a derivation of the verb «νέμω» ('nĕmō)--> _to distribute, pay out, dispense_ (PIE base *nem-, _to allot, distribute_).
2. «Τίμιος» ('timios, _m._) or «έντιμος» ('endimos, _m._). 
A/ Classical adj. «τίμιος, -ία, -ον» ('tĭmīŏs, _m._/tĭ'mīă, _f._/'tĭmīŏn, _n._)--> _valued, worthy_ but it's used more in the sense of someone who is decent or fair. From the feminine noun «τιμὴ» (tī'mē, ti'mi in Modern Greek)--> _honour, dignity, value_ (PIE base *kʷei-(1), _to pay attention, regard_).
B/ Classical adj. «ἔντιμος, -ος, -ον» ('ĕntĭmŏs, _m.-f._/'ĕntĭmŏn, _n._)--> _honoured, honourable_ but has more the meaning of someone who is morally upright or beyond reproach. Compound, prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)--> _in, into_ +  feminine noun «τιμὴ» (tī'mē, ti'mi in Modern Greek)--> _honour, dignity, value_. 
Both «τίμιος» and «έντιμος» are used interchangeably nowadays.
3. «Ανέντιμα» (a'nendima) or «άδικα» ('aðika).
A/ Adv. «ανέντιμα» (a'nendima)--> _dishonourably, fouly, unfairly_.
B/ Adv. «άδικα» ('aðika)--> _unjustly_.
4. Αdv. «ειλικρινά» (ilikri'na); Classical adv. «εἰλικρινῶς» (eilĭkrī'nōs)--> init. _purely, simply, absolutely_, later, _frankly, honestly, trully_. A derivation of the ancient feminine noun «εἰλικρίνεια» (eilĭ'krĭneiă, ili'krinia in Modern Greek)--> _purety, sincerity_; compound, ancient feminine noun (now obsolete) «εἴλη» ('eilē)--> _the sun's heat_ or _warmth_ (with obscure etymology) + ancient verb «κρίνω» ('krīnō, 'krino in Modern Greek)--> init. _pick out, choose_, later, _decide, adjudge, give judgement_. PIE base *krei-, _to sieve, discriminate, distinguish_.
5. «Αδικία» (aði'cia, _f._); Classical feminine noun «ἀδικία» (ădĭ'kīă)--> _wrongdoing, injustice_; compound, privative prefix «α-»  (a-) + feminine noun «δίκη» ('dĭkē, 'ðici in the Modern Language)--> init. _order, right, custom_, later, _judgement, justice_. PIE base *deik-, _to show, point out_.
6. See 2A (in this case, it'd be «τίμιο», a neuter adjective, for game in Greek is a neuter noun). 

The expression "fair weather" in Greek does not exist. We use the adj. «καλός, -λή, -λό» (ka'los, _m._/ka'li, _f._/ka'lo, _n._)--> _good, beautiful_ as an attribute to weather (in this case, «καλός», the masculine adj, for weather in Greek is a masculine noun).
Also (to add another expression ) it's bad Greek to translate from English and use the expression "fair trial" in Greek: «Δίκαιη Δίκη» ('ðicei 'ðici) for «Δίκη» in the Greek language already embraces fairness and presupposes it is free from bias or injustice.


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## ThomasK

Is there any link with *timein*, to fear, Apmoy? I could imagine respect and awe having to do with some kind of fear, but I may be afraid. It is just a word I thought of. 

'Eerlijk proces' with us is possible, because the proces refers to the procedure, and no procedure is fair as such... ;-)

By the way: are any of those words quite common in the media nowadays ?


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## tFighterPilot

Hebrew
1) הוגן (hogén)
2) הגון/כן (hagún\ken)
3) באופן בלתי הוגן/צודק (be'ófen bílti hogén\tsodék)
4) בכנות (bekhenút)
5) אי הגינות / אי צדק(ee haginút \ ee tsédek)


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## ThomasK

Great information, tFP, and I believe I recognize a Biblical word 'tsedek', or *'tsedaka'*, which - I now learn - originally meant 'straight', like 'ortho-', I think, and which then corresponds to our word 'recht', right/ straight.   But would you be able to explain the *h-g-n* and *kh-n* roots? 

And how about 6, *fair play*? Do you translate that ?


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## rusita preciosa

Russian:
1. *Fair *trade - *справедливая торговля */spravedlivaya torgovlia/ - the root -прав(е)д- means "fair, right" (I have to admit I had to look the Russian term up - you can tell I have never been to Starbucks in Moscow )

2. An *honest *person (you can rely on him/her, not false) - *честный человек */tchestnyi tcheloviek/ - the Slavic root -чест- means "honesty, honor"

3. The government treats those person *unfairly/ unjustly*. - *несправедливо */nespravedlivo/ - same root as in (1), prefix не- means "not"

4. *Honestly *said, ... (frankly seems more like openly, so I consider it different) - *честно говоря */tchestno govoria/ - same root as in (2)

5. *Injustice* - не*справедливость* /nespravedlivost/ - same root as (1), same prefix as in (3)

6. *Fair play* - I'm not sure what it exactly means, but in terms of sports it is *справедливая игра */spravedlivaya igra/ - same root as in (1)


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## ThomasK

Perfect! Could -чест- be linked with the Latin root _just_- as in _justitia_? And what is the meaning of 'fair' in прав(е)д-? I believe it also means 'truth' (used to be the name of a newspaper, didn't it)?


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## rusita preciosa

ThomasK said:


> Perfect! Could -чест- be linked with the Latin root _just_- as in _justitia_? And what is the meaning of 'fair' in прав(е)д-? I believe it also means 'truth' (used to be the name of a newspaper, didn't it)?


-чест- sounds like it could be linked with _just_-, but the etymological resource where I looked it up did not indicate that.
-прав(е)д- means pretty much what "right" means in English: true, right (as in direction opposite of left), right (as in "just"), fair, correct, appropriate etc...


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks. But so no link with just-! (Just hoping ;-))


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## tFighterPilot

ThomasK said:


> Great information, tFP, and I believe I recognize a Biblical word 'tsedek', or *'tsedaka'*, which - I now learn - originally meant 'straight', like 'ortho-', I think, and which then corresponds to our word 'recht', right/ straight.   But would you be able to explain the *h-g-n* and *kh-n* roots?
> 
> And how about 6, *fair play*? Do you translate that ?


The root is k-w-n actually. Not sure about their origin, but I think they're both started appearing only in late (Mishnaic) Hebrew.

There isn't really a word for fair play. The closest thing I could think of is ספורטיביות sportiviut.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Is there any link with *timein*, to fear, Apmoy? I could imagine respect and awe having to do with some kind of fear, but I may be afraid. It is just a word I thought of


So, you're trying to establish a connection between the Latin timēre--> _to fear, dread_ and the Greek «τιμέω/τιμῶ» (tĭ'mĕō [uncontracted]/tī'mō [contracted])--> _to honour, hold in esteem_.
Pokorny gives timeō as deriving from the PIE root *stā-/*steye-, _to thicken, firm_.
Babiniotis gives τιμέω/τιμῶ as deriving from the PIE root *kʷei-(1), _to pay attention, regard.
_I'm no expert, but the experts say the two are unrelated.


ThomasK said:


> By the way: are any of those words quite common in the media nowadays ?


All the words I posted previously, are used in everyday speech (and in the media)


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> Perfect! Could -чест- be linked with the Latin root _just_- as in _justitia_?


No, it is not linked. Other Russian cognates are чтить (to honour) and читать (to read), from PIE *(s)kueit (cf. Ancient-Indian citti - thinking). 
And just < justitia is from jus - right, law, of unknown origin (as far as I know).


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## ThomasK

You're certainly right about 'jus', that is the word for 'right' indeed, and it will be the stem...


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## Favara

Catalan
1. Comerç *just*
2. una persona *honest*a
3. Tractar in*just*ament
4. Digué/Va dir *honest*ament...
5. In*just*ícia
6. Joc *net* ("clean", from Latin _nitidu_)


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## ThomasK

"Neat play": nice! It reminds me of "neat manners", as parents in Flanders used to say to their children in my dialect: _schone manieren ---_ or also _fraai zijn [be good]_(_fraai _still means beautiful)


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## jazyk

Portuguese:
1. Comércio *justo*
2. uma pessoa *honest*a
3. Tratar in*just*amente
4. (Vou dizer) *honest*amente...
5. In*just*iça
6. Jogo *limpo*


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## ThomasK

Great, but could you comment on limpo ? (Thanks)


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## jazyk

Clean, from latin limpidus.


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## Tamar

> Hebrew
> 1) הוגן (hogén)
> 2) הגון/כן (hagún\ken)
> 3) באופן בלתי הוגן/צודק (be'ófen bílti hogén\tsodék)
> 4) בכנות (bekhenút)
> 5) אי הגינות / אי צדק(ee haginút \ ee tsédek)



Just a few remarks:
1. Fair trade is translated as סחר הוגן sakhar hogen
2. אדם/איש כן I'd go for "ken" = honest. הגון hagun is normally translated as "decent"
6. fair play would be משחק הוגן miskhak hogent, just like "fair trade".



> Great information, tFP, and I believe I recognize a Biblical word 'tsedek', or *'tsedaka'** = tsdaka*



Just thought of one more way of saying "honest person": אדם ישר adam yashar. "yashar" here means honest, decent, but also "stright" (like a straight line קו ישר kav yashar).


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## 涼宮

ThomasK said:


> 1. *Fair *trade
> 2. An *honest *person (you can rely on him/her, not false)
> 3. The government treats those person *unfairly/ unjustly*.
> 4. *Honestly *said, ... (frankly seems more like openly, so I consider it different)
> 5. *Injustice *
> 6. *Fair play
> *



In Spanish:

1. comercio justo/trato justo 
2. una persona honesta/una persona confiable
3. el govierno trata a esas personas *de manera injusta/injustamente*
4. Hablando francamente/francamente hablando/ la mera verdad/honestamente hablando
5. Injusticia
6. juego limpio (Like Portuguese and Català)


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> How do you translate these phrases in your languages please? I am mainly concerned with the adjective though:
> 
> 1. *Fair *trade
> 2. An *honest *person (you can rely on him/her, not false)
> 3. The government treats those person *unfairly/ unjustly*.
> 4. *Honestly *said, ... (frankly seems more like openly, so I consider it different)
> 5. *Injustice *
> 6. *Fair play
> *
> The funny/ curious ;-) thing is that some languages seem to use three or four different words. And I also see different roots: *honour*, *justice*, and to *'fair *[nice] (weather)'. But I am often inclined to think that semantically related concepts will show up in etymologically related words. Untrue of course. But OK, I am looking forward to your answers!


In Pilipino ,these words are expressed in English and sometimes in pidgin Spanish.But here are my Tagalog versions. 1.) Fair Trade= Maayos na Kalakalan  2.)An Honest person= Isang matapat na tao.  3.)The Government treats those persons unfairly/unjustly= a.) Unfairly(Hindi maayos ang pagturing ng Pamahalaan sa mga taong iyon.) b.) Unjustly(Walang katarungan kung turingan ng Pamahalaan ang mga taong iyon.)  4.)Honestly said= Tapat na pasabi/pagkakasabi  5.)Injustice= kawalan ng katarungan     6.)Fair play= patas na laro


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## tFighterPilot

Tamar said:


> Just a few remarks:
> 1. Fair trade is translated as סחר הוגן sakhar hogen
> 2. אדם/איש כן I'd go for "ken" = honest. הגון hagun is normally translated as "decent"
> 6. fair play would be משחק הוגן miskhak hogent, just like "fair trade".
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought of one more way of saying "honest person": אדם ישר adam yashar. "yashar" here means honest, decent, but also "stright" (like a straight line קו ישר kav yashar).


You're right, ישר would be more fitting in this context.


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