# הרי ש..."‏"



## Albert Schlef

(I'm a native Hebrew speaker.)

*Is "הרי ש..." grammatically correct? That's my question.
*
For example: "מכיוון שאסתר היא הבת הצעירה הרי שרונית היא הגדולה מבין השתיים".

Since הרי is מלת רמז, shouldn't we be able to just drop it? But then we're left with a clause that starts with a "ש..." that isn't connected to anything.

So, shouldn't the correct sentence be "מכיוון שאסתר היא הבת הצעירה הרי רונית היא הגדולה מבין השתיים"? (I removed the "ש".)

===

Now, I used google and I see plenty of "הרי ש", as in "אם עבירה הייתה מבטלת את הגיור, הרי שחטא העגל במדבר היה צריך להביא לידי ביטול של מתן תורה". Are these sentences grammatically correct?

Let me rephrase the question: "הרי שחטא העגל ..." is the main part of the sentence, yet it begins with מילית שעבוד and I'm not sure this is legal. The "אם עבירה היתה..." is a clause (פסוקית תנאי) and we should be able to drop it, after which we're left with a "sentence" that contains only the "הרי ש..." part and this doesn't look valid.

My dictionary (אבן שושן) doesn't mention "הרי ש". (Well, it does, but only in Talmudic Hebrew where it means "if".)


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## Albert Schlef

Some additions:

- Here a person (by the name of "Slus"), who I know to be very knowledgeable in Hebrew, says "The grammar is wrong". Am I to learn from this that "הרי ש" is indeed incorrect?

- I see that י"ח ברנר wrote: הואיל שבכל חברה [...], הרי ש"רק במקום שיש הרחבה יש התקדמות". I assume ברנר knew Hebrew. So am I to conclude that "הרי ש" is correct? On the other hand, ברנר perhaps lived at a time when Modern Hebrew wasn't streamlined.


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## origumi

It's common in the Gemara and therefore correct enough. See for example the ten occurrences in ירושלמי, מועד קטן, פרק ג: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/r/r2c03.htm


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## Albert Schlef

origumi said:


> It's common in the Gemara and therefore correct enough. See for example the ten occurrences in ירושלמי, מועד קטן, פרק ג: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/r/r2c03.htm



 You missed the little note about אבן שושן in my question.

Indeed, "הרי ש" is in the Talmud, but its meaning there is *very different* than in nowaday Hebrew. According to אבן שושן, the meaning of the Talmudic "הרי ש" is: "אם-, במקרה ש-‏ [בתחילת מאמר]‏"

So my question still stands: *Is "הרי ש", as we use it in nowaday Hebrew, grammatically correct?*


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## origumi

The Talmudic form proved that הרי can be followed by ש. This is important because if (as I suspect) the argument against הרי ש is that הרי cannot introduce a secondary sentence (not sure about the term) - well, it can.

In the benyehuda.org project there are many writers who do not hesitate to write הרי ש, for example:

דרויאנוב: http://benyehuda.org/droyanov/sridim.html
גורדון: http://benyehuda.org/gordon_ad/atzmenu_05.html
'אהרונוביץ: http://benyehuda.org/aharonovich/poalim.html
ברנר: http://benyehuda.org/brenner/brenner203.html (as you mentioned)
בילינסון: http://benyehuda.org/beilinson/beilinson172.html
שטיינברג: http://benyehuda.org/steinberg_yehuda/lo_leelohim_velo_laanashim.html
טביוב: http://benyehuda.org/tavyov/talmuda.html

I have a similar issue every time I see בגלל ש - my language teachers always insisted that it's incorrect, and yet you can hear this combination everywhere (and nicely described here: http://www.safa-ivrit.org/style/biglal.php).

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added: here is a modern grammar book that permits הרי ש: http://books.google.co.il/books?id=...QPsuPS7BQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And Maimonides, although this can be regarded as imitation of Talmudic language: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3405.htm


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## Albert Schlef

Thank you for the time you took to investigate this and provide the many links. I appreciate this.



			
				origumi said:
			
		

> The Talmudic form proved that הרי can be followed by ש.



 But in the Talmud "הרי ש" opens פסוקית תנאי/סיבה. This is different than nowadays Hebrew, where "הרי ש" opens the main part. So quoting the Talmud doesn't help (at least not automatically).



> I have a similar issue every time I see בגלל ש



 "בגלל ש" too opens פסוקית, so it's irrelevant.



			
				origumi said:
			
		

> In the benyehuda.org project there are many writers who do not hesitate to write הרי ש, for example:



Thanks. So I now have to conclude that "הרי ש", as it's used in nowadays Hebrew, is grammatically correct. I don't know why, though.

If somebody pointed a gun at my head and asked me to invent a proof that "הרי ש" is legitimate I would answer that "הרי" means "see:", and the "ש" opens a פסוקית מושא.


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## Albert Schlef

Hey, I have an idea!

Is it possibvle it's a פסוקית נושא? E.g.:

‎(1) ידוע שאנחנו בבעיה.
‎(2) ניכר שאנחנו בבעיה.
‎(3) הרי שאנחנו בבעיה.

 In the first two sentences, "שאנחנו בבעיה" is פסוקית נושא. Maybe in the third sentence too it's the same? That might be one way to explain why "הרי ש" is valid.


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## origumi

Albert Schlef said:


> Is it possible it's a פסוקית נושא


The actual use and the question weather it's grammatical at all are different issues.

If you look at the בגלל ש explanation in the link above - the motivation to say it's not grammatical hides in the word history (started as a construct state etc.). Therefore I think one should do the same with הרי - find its origin (era, etymology, morphology) - and then decide.

Notice the similarity  (by sound and meaning) of הרי and Greek ἆρα. I don't claim it's borrowed from Greek yet wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's some influence.


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## Albert Schlef

@origumi: thanks.

I certainly have a lot to study.


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