# Greek Loanwords in World's Languages



## mojobadshah

Does anyone know 1.) how many Greek loanwords there are in the world's languages 2.)  how many Greek words vs loans are in the Greek language or languages and how many from each group?


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## ahvalj

Nobody knows: that can't be practically estimated. Plus, it is often hard to distinguish between real Greek loanwords and neologisms created from Greek elements (like _telephone_), which sometimes were borrowed into modern Greek itself.


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## sotos

words like _telephone_ or _antibiotic_ are still greek and not products of another language. They can hardly be considered as products of another civilisation. Therefore they shouldn't count as "loans". Are the afro-american words "loans" in Britain?
As for the original question, I will search for some works on the foreign loans in modern Greek (before the advance of the informatics culture).


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## ahvalj

A loanword is a word that pre-existed in the source language. If one uses the means of that language (especially the extinct one) to construct new terms, it can hardly be regarded in the same league as the real borrowing. I recall my visit to Armenia in summer 1998, where I was surprised that all the car-repairing facilities used Russian as their advertising language (taking into consideration that there were and are virtually no Russians in that country — for one month I met Russians only in a village of Russian sectarians who settled there in the 18th century), inventing, when necessary, Russian-looking terms, absolutely unknown to me and my colleagues.


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## ireney

The _components_ of words like "telephone" are, undeniably, Greek. However,since no such word existed in Greek before its creation by non-native Greek speakers and no native Greek speaker ever thought of them (let alone used them) before their creation they cannot be considered loan words.
Most certainly one can chalk them up to the influence of Greek or the Greek civilization or however you want to call it, to other civilizations but the words are certainly the product of whomever came up with them.


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## sotos

The "turkish" (*) loans in new Greek must be few hundred words, maybe around 200. Here is a glossary of turkish loans, claiming that lists about 1000 words, but it includes the products and variants (e.g. astari > astarono (v.) > astaroma etc). https://sites.google.com/site/lexikotdeg/paradeigma-alphabetiko-eureterio-2

Another glossary from a credible source  lists about 200 words https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/220turkish/

Latin loans must be more than few hundreds and slavic less than turkish.

(*) Many of those words  are actually persian or arabic in origin. The "cleaning" of modern turkish from arabic and persian loans happened after 1920's, when Greek language  was not under  Turkish influence any more.


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## Hulalessar

ireney said:


> The _components_ of words like "telephone" are, undeniably, Greek. However,since no such word existed in Greek before its creation by non-native Greek speakers and no native Greek speaker ever thought of them (let alone used them) before their creation they cannot be considered loan words.



Does that not lead to a rather narrow definition of "loan word"? How are words like "hydrogen" to be categorised?


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## apmoy70

^Well hydrogen and oxygen were coined by the Frenchman Lavoisier, are they Greek loanwords into French? or French calqued words?


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## berndf

Hulalessar said:


> Does that not lead to a rather narrow definition of "loan word"?


Not really. Why? If the were true than _Handy _meaning _mobile phone_ would an English loan word into German. I would call it a _German neologism influenced by English_.


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## Hulalessar

If you import wood and make a shed you have not imported the shed but you still imported the wood!


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## berndf

Hulalessar said:


> If you import wood and make a shed you have not imported the shed but you still imported the wood!


Exactly. Hydor is Greek, genos is Greek, hydrogène is not.


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## sotos

ahvalj said:


> A loanword is a word that pre-existed in the source language.


We have to review the definition of "word", then (there was a thread on that recently, and the case of lengthy complex german words was made). Is the w.  _Electroencephalography _one newly constructed  or three (possibly 4 if you count _en_) pre-existing?


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## sotos

Hulalessar said:


> If you import wood and make a shed you have not imported the shed but you still imported the wood!


Not only. If you import bamboo wood, you have to import the technique/culture of bamboo-shed construction, as well, which was not known in medieval England. The same often  applies to latin and greek terminology. Empirically I see that in english you cannot easily combine more than two english words to make a usable scientific term.  I wonder how _phosphorofructokinase_  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphofructokinase  ) would look in english made by the english words _light+bear+fruit+move_.


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## Hulalessar

berndf said:


> Exactly. Hydor is Greek, genos is Greek, hydrogène is not.



I confess I am having a little difficulty thinking of_ hydrogen_ as a French loan word, though I suppose it is no different from the many words which have come to English from Greek via another language where the Greek origin is not obvious e.g. _butter.
_
The question is what to call coinages made up of Greek and/or Latin elements to describe things unknown to Cicero and Plato and whether it should have a different name if it does not come into your language direct?

If _hydrogen_ had been coined by an English chemist from _hydor_ and _genos_ would it be a Greek loan word in English?


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> Exactly. Hydor is Greek, genos is Greek, hydrogène is not.





Hulalessar said:


> If _hydrogen_ had been coined by an English chemist from _hydor_ and _genos_



Ηydor and genos or hydor and gonos?
By the way the Greek word is υδρογόνο < Fr. hydrogène


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## Hulalessar

Perseas said:


> Ηydor and genos or hydor and gonos?



Pass! I never studied Greek. I was just copying Berndf. Wiktionary says: From French _hydrogène_, coined by Louis-Bernard Guyton de Morveau, from Ancient Greek _ὕδωρ_ (húdōr, “water”) + _γεννάω_ (gennáō, “I bring forth”).



Perseas said:


> By the way the Greek word is υδρογόνο < Fr. hydrogène



A boomerang, then.


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## Perseas

Hulalessar said:


> Pass! I never studied Greek. I was just copying Berndf. Wiktionary says: From French _hydrogène_, coined by Louis-Bernard Guyton de Morveau, from Ancient Greek _ὕδωρ_ (húdōr, “water”) + _γεννάω_ (gennáō, “I bring forth”).


The verb _γεννάω _is the root from which derive_ γένος, γόνος, γένεσις etc. _and we use it to say _give birth_. In the Greek _υδρογόνο_ I see _γόνος_ (= offspring) not _γένος_ (= gender, race)


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Ηydor and genos or hydor and gonos?


To my knowledge indeed from _γένος_. But I won't bet on it.


Perseas said:


> By the way the Greek word is υδρογόνο < Fr. hydrogène


In this context, by _Greek_ we obviously mean _Ancient Greek_.


Perseas said:


> In the Greek υδρογόνο I see _γόνος_ (= offspring) not γένος (= gender, race)


That is obviously an adaptation to modern semantic shifts: _γένος _meant _offspring _in Ancient Greek but not in Modern Greek.


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## berndf

Hulalessar said:


> If _hydrogen_ had been coined by an English chemist from _hydor_ and _genos_ would it be a Greek loan word in English?


I would call it a _neologism from Greek roots_.


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## M Mira

berndf said:


> I would call it a _neologism from Greek roots_.


And just so it happens that neologism is a neologism from Greek roots.

Back on topic, I presume that you would also say that "salaryman" isn't a loanword but neologism from English roots, right?


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## Hulalessar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword#Linguistic_classification

The above sets out a system of classification. Unfortunately, neologisms constructed from Greek or other roots do not seem to be covered.


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## Hulalessar

On reflection, is _neo_logism an appropriate term for a word which has been around for a couple of centuries?


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## sotos

Hulalessar said:


> On reflection, is _neo_logism an appropriate term for a word which has been around for a couple of centuries?


No. _Plagiarism_ is better.


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## sotos

To expand on the etymology of hydrogene: It's interesting that the modern learned Greeks transliterated it to hydro-_gono_ and not to hydro-_geno_. I suppose they had in mind that the v. γεννώ, as second in complex words becomes -γονώ (e.g. ζωο-γονώ). So, the meaning is "generating water". The same with oxygene>oxygono. Not to be confused with the neo-plagiarisms  _pentagon, hexagon_ etc.


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## Hulalessar

sotos said:


> No. _Plagiarism_ is better.



Plagiarism is the appropriation of someone's efforts and passing them off as your own.


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## berndf

Hulalessar said:


> On reflection, is _neo_logism an appropriate term for a word which has been around for a couple of centuries?


The issue is whether is pre-existed at the time of its introduction in the target language of if it was coined at that point in time.


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## M Mira

Hulalessar said:


> Plagiarism is the appropriation of someone's efforts and passing them off as your own.


Indeed. And given that basically everyone agrees that it's formed by binding two Greek roots together I don't see anything that's remotely plagiarism.


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## Hulalessar

berndf said:


> The issue is whether is pre-existed at the time of its introduction in the target language of if it was coined at that point in time.



All definitions I have found stress newness as an element of a neologism with some suggesting that a neologism has yet to enter general use.


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## berndf

Hulalessar said:


> All definitions I have found stress newness as an element of a neologism with some suggesting that a neologism *has yet to enter general use*.


There is a neologism for that: a newly coined word that still has to enter general use is called a _protologism_ these days. If you don't like _neologism _I could offer _innovation_. But that is less specific because it doesn't apply only to words.


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## fdb

Perseas said:


> The verb _γεννάω _is the root from which derive_ γένος, γόνος, γένεσις etc. _and we use it to say _give birth_. In the Greek _υδρογόνο_ I see _γόνος_ (= offspring) not _γένος_ (= gender, race)



To be absolutely accurate, γένος, γόνος, γένεσις belong to the same root as γί-γν-ομαι (with gn as zero-grade ablaut of gen, gon), not γεννάω which, though distantly cognate, has an unexplained geminate -nn-. γένος and γόνος are both primarily “offspring, progeny, race”, but γόνος can also mean “begetting, procreation”. In this spirit, “hydrogon” (the begetter of water, Wasserstoff) would have made better sense than the established “hydrogen” (which ought to mean “offspring of water”). I do not, however, see the logic of the Modern Greek neuter form υδρογόνο. Why not -ος?


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## Perseas

fdb said:


> To be absolutely accurate, γένος, γόνος, γένεσις belong to the same root as γί-γν-ομαι (with gn as zero-grade ablaut of gen, gon), not γεννάω


True, thank you. And the IE root is *genə-*.



fdb said:


> I do not, however, see the logic of the Modern Greek neuter form υδρογόνο. Why not -ος?


Almost all chemical elements are neuter. Perhaps because _στοιχείο_ (element) is neuter. Exceptions are _άνθρακας (C), φωσφόρος (P), σίδηρος (Fe), χαλκός (Cu), ψευδάργυρος (Zn).._


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> By the way the Greek word is υδρογόνο < Fr. hydrogène


Just a small add-on to my previous comment: Since Western European languages are full of words of Ancient Greek origin but apart from Gyros, Metaxa and Retsina have virtually no Modern Greek influence, we usually distinguish between _Greek_ and _Modern Greek_ and not between _Ancient Greek_ and _Greek_. It might be useful to keep this in mind to avoid further misunderstandings.


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> In this context, by _Greek_ we obviously mean _Ancient Greek_.


I know that berndf, besides in my post I 've written that _υδρογόνο_ derives from Fr. _hydrogène_.
This statement of mine was more like a wonder, why in M. Gr. is _υδρογ*ό*νο whereas _in Fr._ hydrog*è*ne, _which I think has been answered_._ I didn't mean to bring up confusion.


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## fdb

Perseas said:


> Almost all chemical elements are neuter. Perhaps because _στοιχείο_ (element) is neuter.



That makes sense; perhaps it is really an adjective with the implied referent _στοιχείο._


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## apmoy70

fdb said:


> That makes sense; perhaps it is really an adjective with the implied referent _στοιχείο._


Yes, it's a nominalised adjective (Greek likes to nominalise adjectives alot)


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## amed

sotos said:


> The "turkish" (*) loans in new Greek must be few hundred words, maybe around 200. Here is a glossary of turkish loans, claiming that lists about 1000 words, but it includes the products and variants (e.g. astari > astarono (v.) > astaroma etc). https://sites.google.com/site/lexikotdeg/paradeigma-alphabetiko-eureterio-2
> 
> Another glossary from a credible source  lists about 200 words https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/220turkish/
> 
> Latin loans must be more than few hundreds and slavic less than turkish.
> 
> (*) Many of those words  are actually persian or arabic in origin. The "cleaning" of modern turkish from arabic and persian loans happened after 1920's, when Greek language  was not under  Turkish influence any more.



Thats right even now most of words in Turkish language are loan words from Persian, Arabic, Kurdish, Mongolian languages this is because Ottoman never used Turkish as state language but Arabic in science and religious purposes and Persian in literature, music etc. Turkish is very poor language in terms of words and some words were just created by Ataturk with no grammar systematic and entomology knowledge such as "Ucgen" which means "Triangle" Uc=Three and Gen=edge but indeed "gen" was taken from "gon" which is in "Penta-gon" and old Greek word (gonos=angled) , and there are many words "just created" after 1930's with such absurd approach of Turkish nationalists/racists in order to claim that they have a rich language. Please read more about this absurdity by searching "The *Sun Language Theory*".


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