# Germanic languages: The initial "kn"



## Abu Bishr

Hi All

What is the origin of the "kn" initial in some European languages, and is the "k" in "kn" only silent in English? For example, in English we say "knee" with a silent "k" but in Afrikaans we say "knie" with the "k" pronounced. Also, was the "k" in "kn" always silent in English or did it evolve from being pronounced to not being pronounced?

I look forward to your answers.

Thank you in anticipation.


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## jonquiliser

I don't know the answers to all your questions, but I'd imagine it wasn't always silent in English, and that it evolved as to the k gradually disappearing, whereas in other Germanic languages it didn't - Swedish pronounces the k of knä (knee) for example (as in a good many other words). 

(But I'm a little unsure as to Anglo-European languages - that must be only English, then? )


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## Abu Bishr

jonquiliser said:


> (But I'm a little unsure as to Anglo-European languages - that must be only English, then? )


 
Thanks for the correction. Yes, I meant 'European languages including English'. Maybe one of the mods can change "Anglo-European" in the heading to "European". Sorry about that folks.


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## Arrius

The K used to be pronounced in English. In Chaucer's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, the poet writes: "A knight there was and that a worthy man" in which _knight_ was pronounced _k-nicht_ (_ch_ as in Scots_ och_ and _loch_). Knight is a cognate of German _Knecht_ meaning servant and now with a pejorative meaning, but originally the servant of a knight (chevalier) who would himself eventually also become one. The K in _know_ was also once pronounced as evidenced by the related synonym _to ken_ (Scots and archaic English), cognate German _kennen_, Afrikaans _om te ken_, to know. 
So English has shed the K in words beginning with_ kn_- . 
Now I come to think of it, this Kn sound is still retained in the name of the English king Canute (though we have found it necessary to interpose an A) who allegedly bade the tide to stop coming in at Southampton and got his feet wet. He was originally King Cnut or in Old Norse, the Vikings' language, Knúttr.


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## Frank06

Hi Abu,


Abu Bishr said:


> Thanks for the correction. Yes, I meant 'European languages including English'. Maybe one of the mods can change "Anglo-European" in the heading to "European".


Do you mean the Germanic languages?

In Dutch, as you might have guessed , kn- is pronounced. In German too. Another example is the English word 'knight', which in Dutch is 'knecht' and in German 'Knecht' (but mind the (modern) differences in meaning). Both 'knee' and 'knecht' come from Germanic root with *kn-.

In Old English, 'knee' and 'knight' were written with <cn-> (but that and the change to <kn-> is only a matter of orthography, <cn-> did sound as /kn-/,however). The change from /kn/ to /n/ seems to have been quite late (17th century) and seems to have had some intermediate phases: /kn/ > /hn/ or /tn/ > /n/. 
Probably there are some English dialects which have preserved any of these intermediate phases (guessing here).

[edit: see here]

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Abu Bishr

Thank you, Everybody. I have now a much clearer picture on the "kn". The wiki link by Frank is very informative. In Afrikaans we also say "kneg" for "servant" with the "g" pronounced like the Scottish "ch" in the word-final position.

So, am I correct in assuming that only English from amongst the Germanic languages does not pronounce the "k" in "kn"? If that is the case, then it is a very interesting phenomenon.

Now, that we have sort of resolved this issue, I was going to ask about the [p] in [ps] which, I think, has a Greek origin, but I think it's better if I open up a separate thread for that.


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## Andreas_Jensen

Arrius said:


> The K used to be pronounced in English. In Chaucer's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, the poet writes: "A knight there was and that a worthy man" in which _knight_ was pronounced _k-nicht_ (_ch_ as in Scots_ och_ and _loch_). Knight is a cognate of German _Knecht_ meaning servant and now with a pejorative meaning, but originally the servant of a knight (chevalier) who would himself eventually also become one. The K in _know_ was also once pronounced as evidenced by the related synonym _to ken_ (Scots and archaic English), cognate German _kennen_, Afrikaans _om te ken_, to know.
> So English has shed the K in words beginning with_ kn_- .
> Now I come to think of it, this Kn sound is still retained in the name of the English king Canute (though we have found it necessary to interpose an A) who allegedly bade the tide to stop coming in at Southampton and got his feet wet. He was originally King Cnut or in Old Norse, the Vikings' language, Knúttr.


 
In Danish we also pronounce the 'k' in words beginning with 'kn'. For example we have the word 'knægt', which is pronounced with the 'k' and means 'boy' (or lad, if you will) nowadays, but used to mean 'soldier'. I actually thought the English 'knight' came from that word, with the vikings . 
And speaking of vikings, I have to stress that king Canute (the Great) was a Danish (and Norwegian) king who managed to conquer England . In Danish he is called Knud den Store.

- Andreas


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## Arrius

My Scandinavian is only passive but I assumed you would have some word like Knecht: even the French have or had the word *lansquenet* which was a foot soldier in the very international Thirty Years' War and derives from the German_ Landsknecht_. I gave the Viking name Knúttr for our Cnut or Canute, so obviously I was aware of his Scandinavian origin. And I am quite aware of how much trouble you Danes had already given our good Anglo-Saxon King Alfred the Great whose estate was at Lewisham where I was born (but somewhat after his times).
Skål !
A.


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## jonquiliser

A few examples of words in Swedish with the kn-cluster: knä (knee), knekt (knight), knåda (knead), kniv (knife), knut (knot, but also the name as already mentioned)...


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## Lemminkäinen

jonquiliser said:


> A few examples of words in Swedish with the kn-cluster: knä (knee), knekt (knight), knåda (knead), kniv (knife), knut (knot, but also the name as already mentioned)...



In Norwegian: kne, knekt, kna, kniv, knute (with the 'k' pronounced in all).


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## Forero

Abu Bishr said:


> What is the origin of the "kn" initial in some European languages, and is the "k" in "kn" only silent in English?


 
The origin of initial _kn_ Germanic is Indoeuropean _gn.  _English_ know_,_ knee_; Latin (_co)gnoscere, genu _(or whatever the source of English _genuflect_); Greek (yi)gnosco, etc.  I think English is the only Germanic language "uncomfortable" with _kn_ beginning a syllable.



Andreas_Jensen said:


> In Danish ... we have the word 'knægt', which is pronounced with the 'k' and means 'boy' (or lad, if you will) nowadays, ...


 
Interesting that _kn__ægt_ seems to be synonymous with _Knabe_ (German) or _knave_ (Middle English).


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## Frank06

Hi,


Forero said:


> Interesting that _kn__ægt_ seems to be synonymous with _Knabe_ (German) or _knave_ (Middle English).


Danish is apparantly the only Germanic language which kept the original meaning of the word *knehta.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Arrius

*Danish is apparently the only Germanic language which kept the original meaning of the word *knehta.(Frank)*

I take it that the asterisk is on *knehta because you quote it as a hypothetical form, but in fact , whatever it is here, it coincides exactly with Old High German. I do not think that Danish is the only Germanic language that has kept the meaning of boy, because German _Knecht_ often implies a very young male person in a lowly job,and the related forms_ Knabe_ and_ Knirps_ do mean boy, the latter also being used as an alternative word for dwarf (Zwerg) and a handy telescopic umbrella that reduces to a few centimetres. Another variant form _Knappe_ refers to what is known in English as a squire, i.e. an apprentice knight. But all this doesn't take us much farther.
We have heard nothing yet about Russian. I only know a few Russian words but I have read my Dostoevsky etc. in German and often come across the German word _Knute _(a heavy whip for disciplining serfs - a sjambok) from the Russian _knout,_ which although it is traceable back to Icelandic_ knu:tr_ (knot), does serve to show that Russian uses the pronounced consonant pair kn-. And , of course, there is the word _knige_, a book.


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## eclepticearth

I have heard that these kn- words, and their Germanic cognates, are remnanats, fossils, of vocabulary adapted from the now extinct languages of Europe, replaced by IndoEuropean languages.  Anyone have more information?


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## Forero

Welcome to the forums, Eclepticearth.

The only derivations I know of for Germanic _kn-_ words go back either to Indoeuropean roots beginning with _gen-_, as _knee_ and _kneel_ compared with Greek _gonion_ and Latin _genuflect_, or to a common Germanic _kn-_ root with a meaning like "compact" or "wad up into a ball".

_Knave_ and _knight_ are even less traceable, but the telesoping umbrella, though obviously not the source of the word, suggests that German _Knabe_ and  English _knave_ may be relatives of the "wad up" words (_knot_, _knob_, the _knap- _of _knapsack_, _knit_, etc.).


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## eclepticearth

Perhaps further back these words had a non-ProtoIndoEuropean root.  The Celtic, Italic, and Germanic branches of Indo-European separted from the Balkan (Baltic, Slavic, Illyrian, Greek and Indo-Iranian families) and Steppe groups (Tocharian), before then further separating into these branches.  Did these cognates arise in from earlier proto-IndoEuropean roots, or did this Northwestern branch of PIE encounter another language group from which these words were adapted?  

I am reading David Anthony's "The Horse, The Wheel & Language).


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