# decade



## Einstein

Does anyone know a concise translation of the Italian "decade", meaning a ten-day period? I'm almost resigned to writing "the second ten-day period of the month", but it would be nice to have a shorter term.


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## Saoul

DE MAURO PARAVIA says "ten days period".

Idem per Garzanti Linguistica di cui non posso mettere il link.


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## giovannino

Isn't "ten days period" wrong? I think you can only say "ten-day period", as in Einstein's post.
However, there are many results for "ten days period" on Google. Over to the native speakers.


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## Saoul

Sorry, giovannino, I don't get it. Einstein's question is about a "ten day period". The word "decade" in English means "ten-year period", but I think she needs to find a more concise word for "ten-day period". Or did I get it all wrong?


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## giovannino

Sorry, Saoul. What I meant was that I always thought that "a ten day*s *period" was wrong and that only the hyphenated form (ten-day) was correct, unless maybe one added an apostrophe (a ten days' period) but I'm not sure at all, which is why I asked native speakers for their input.


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## Saoul

Oh, I see. You are absolutely right.  Sorry.


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## Einstein

Thanks, Saoul and giovannino. You've confirmed that there's no other term except "ten-day period". "Decade" seems to be an entirely Italian concept, although in my context I saw it was used in international shipping, so I thought there might be a more concise English term.

Anyway, "ten-day period", not "ten days period".

I see that "decade" is now often used to translate the English "decade" (ten-year period). Of course it should be "decennio", but the anglophilism of Italian journalists knows no bounds...


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## cirolemiro

*T*he *I*talian word "decennio" is translated in *E*nglish as "decade".
To translate the *I*talian word "decade" (meant as a ten days period) *I* would use "dekad" as found in a number of scientific pubblications even if what *I* am writing has nothing to share with science... Suggestions?


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## Lorena1970

cirolemiro said:


> To translate the *I*talian word "decade" (meant as a *ten-day* period) *I* would use "dekad"



It would be interesting to know in which scientific texts was it used...?
Anyway, unless you are speaking Malay   , I would advise against using it, unless *a native* will confirm it is correct...

My 2 cents!


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## london calling

_Dekad_ is not Standard English and I'd avoid using it. 

Entro la prima decade del mese
_Within the first 10 days of the month_

The problem is "seconda decade":

Within the second ten-day period of the month? I really can't think of a decent way of saying that......


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## Paulfromitaly

I'd simply say "within the third week of the month".


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## effeundici

_In the ten central days of the month?_


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## cirolemiro

Lorena1970 said:


> It would be interesting to know in which scientific texts was it used...?
> Anyway, unless you are speaking Malay  , I would advise against using it, unless *a native* will confirm it is correct...
> 
> My 2 cents!


 
2 cents for what?

I've been working for quite a period abroad in scientific research (agriculture) in institutes using english as both working and reporting language. I was under FAO contract (where Malay is not an official language wheras English is). And on FAO papers and reports dekad is used for "ten days period". See http://www.fao.org/giews/english/shortnews/ZimbabweFeb07.pdf Fig. 1 (Estimated Rainfall by dekad - Zimbabwe (region of Matebeleland South).
My question was not if the word exist (because I know it does). I was asking if it might be "usable" out of the scientific context. 
So, no native here... but quite experienced...
Cheers


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## Lorena1970

Sorry Ciro, I didn't mean to sound irritating at all, and in case that was the feeling, please accept my sincere apologies.
I mentioned Malay because the only Google hints where I found "dekad" mentioned were some pages referring to Malay.
And in effect it appears in wiki, used to describe a ten-day period of rainfall but the entry doesn't seem to be fully reliable (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dekad).

All that, anyway, didn't seem to have so much to do with your question, and that's why I personally suggested to avoid using it, relying at same time upon native's opinions.
Now your question sounds much clearer and I am sure that some native will answer it.


PS: "My 2 cents" = It used to preface the tentative stating of one’s opinion. By  deprecating the opinion to follow — suggesting its value is only two  cents, a very small amount — the user of the phrase hopes to lessen the  impact of a possibly contentious statement, showing politeness and  humility.


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## cirolemiro

Cheers Lorena!

The fact is that this "ten days period" is somehow and sometime "too heavy". I will try to avoid it as much as possible...

Thank you for your advise



london calling said:


> _Dekad_ is not Standard English and I'd avoid using it.
> 
> Entro la prima decade del mese
> _Within the first 10 days of the month_
> 
> The problem is "seconda decade":
> 
> Within the second ten-day period of the month? I really can't think of a decent way of saying that......


 

Thank you for your advice. For "seconda decade" I think you may skip al that "ambaradam" and just say "within the 20(th) of the month". But might not work sometime... Try with "durante la seconda decade del mese"... eheheheh. Could "from 10(th) until 20(th) of the month" do it?


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## rrose17

I'm thinking the only reasonable things would be
_The first ten days of the month_
_The middle of the month / Between the 10th and the 20th of the month_
_The last ten days of the month_

_Within the third wee_k to me is way too ambiguous. Perhaps _by the third week_?


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## cirolemiro

rrose17 said:


> I'm thinking the only reasonable things would be
> _The first ten days of the month_
> _The middle of the month / Between the 10th and the 20th of the month_
> _The last ten days of the month_
> 
> _Within the third wee_k to me is way too ambiguous. Perhaps _by the third week_?


 
The fact is that the italian word "decade" when referred to a month gives complications in English. The last one of the month could be composed by a number of days not equal to ten (e.g.: the last one of February is composed of 8 (or 9) days; the last one of May is of 11... ). So, better to avoid the "ten days period" that most of dictionaries suggest... trying to find other ways to express the concept


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## italtrav

AE knows nothing of a dekad. I'm beginning to think that there ought to be some such term as "parallel English" (henceforth PE?) to describe the adaptive usages evolving as a result of non-native English speakers who, for international communication in bureaucracies, academia, sciences, etc., are compelled to write in English.


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## Lorena1970

italtrav said:


> AE knows nothing of a dekad. I'm beginning to think that there ought to be some such term as "parallel English" (henceforth PE? what is it???) to describe the adaptive usages evolving as a result of non-native English speakers who, for international communication in bureaucracies, academia, sciences, etc., are compelled to write in English.



As a NON-native and in my very NON-native smallness, I COMPLETELY  agree!


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## italtrav

"I'm beginning to think that there ought to be some such term as "parallel English" (henceforth PE? what is it???)"

I meant that just as we have AE and BE, now we would have also PE, for Parallel English. I just know that there is a doctoral thesis in linguistics waiting for some lucky grad student.


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## Lorena1970

italtrav said:


> I meant that just as we have AE and BE, now we would have also PE, for Parallel English.



OMG! Yes! Tonight I am COMPLETELY out of sync!


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## cirolemiro

italtrav said:


> "I'm beginning to think that there ought to be some such term as "parallel English" (henceforth PE? what is it???)"
> 
> I meant that just as we have AE and BE, now we would have also PE, for Parallel English. I just know that there is a doctoral thesis in linguistics waiting for some lucky grad student.


 



Might be also that the language is evolving trying to include words to express new concepts. Neologismi... And English, as many other languages, could get something from other languages. In this particular case from ancient Greek where "dekas" (genitive: dekados) was used to indicate the division of the calendar months used in Athens. French used the same for their calendar after the revolution.
Maybe scientists started to use first because of the urgent need to have a word to express the concept of "ten days period" so necessary to plot data and numbering them progressively over the year or the month. That's why FAO, USAID (a Native AE speaker and writer!), and other use it. 
So, let's agree that for scientific use it is correct. Then for other uses... lets wait few "decades"!
Peace? Peace!


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## italtrav

cirolemiro said:


> Might be also that the language is evolving trying to include words to express new concepts. Neologismi... And English, as many other languages, could get something from other languages. In this particular case from ancient Greek where "dekas" (genitive: dekados) was used to indicate the division of the calendar months used in Athens. French used the same for their calendar after the revolution.
> Maybe scientists started to use first because of the urgent need to have a word to express the concept of "ten days period" so necessary to plot data and numbering them progressively over the year or the month. That's why FAO, USAID (a Native AE speaker and writer!), and other use it.
> So, let's agree that for scientific use it is correct. Then for other uses... lets wait few "decades"!
> Peace? Peace!



I'm all for peace, and evolution. And I don't think English could fairly be accused of being resistant to either borrowing from other languages or to incorporating neologisms.

The primary problem with dekad is that almost no one has heard of this term, it is in no dictionary that I can find, and it is even difficult to find on the web. This was a translation problem, and I still think that the translator would be ill-advised to incorporate a term (no matter how useful) that is virtually unknown—at least without placing an asterisk next to it and adding the definition at the bottom of the page.


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## Lorena1970

cirolemiro said:


> And on FAO papers and reports dekad is used for "ten days period" correct form:"ten-day period".





cirolemiro said:


> The fact is that this "ten days period" correct form "ten-day period"is somehow and sometime "too heavy". I will try to avoid it as much as possible...





cirolemiro said:


> So, better to avoid the "ten days period" correct form "ten-day period" that most of dictionaries suggest...Uhm, not sure to agree, sorry... trying to find other ways to express the concept





cirolemiro said:


> Maybe scientists started to use first because of the urgent need to have a word to express the concept of "ten days period" correct form "ten-day period" ... That's why FAO, USAID (a Native AE speaker and writer! Sorry,_ do you describe this __United   States Agency for International Development_ (_USAID_) as a "*native speaker and writer*...? Sounds like a US Organization, instead...)



Sorry, but it seems that natives already stated that *the correct form is* *"ten-day period"*, and this is a language forum. I am sure you will forgive me.



> Originally Posted by* italtrav*
> The primary problem with* dekad* is that almost no one has heard of this  term, it is in no dictionary that I can find, and it is even difficult  to find on the web. This was a translation problem, and I still think  that the translator would be ill-advised to incorporate a term (no  matter how useful) that is virtually unknown—at least without placing an  asterisk next to it and adding the definition at the bottom of the  page.


Wise and of course appropriate (not that you needed my confirmation!)- again, in my (NON native) small.


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## cirolemiro

Si, USAID é un'agenzia governativa degli USA e per questo si suppone che usi l'inglese-americano per comunicare. Mi dispiace che tu non abbia colto il senso delle parole tra parentesi. Assimilavo USAID ad una persona "native AE speaking".

For the rest... I quit. But you may give a look at something connected to Columbia University http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/dochelp/Documentation/details/index.html?func=dekadalAverage





_____________________________________________________________
 Language is a virus​


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## Lorena1970

Beh, era un'affermazione poco chiara, no?

Comunque constato che in alcuni documenti del link seguente (consultabili) è menzionato "dekad" e a questo punto spero che qualche nativo intervenga  Io non ho strumenti per valutare oltre... La questione sta diventando bizzarra...! http://gsearch.info.usaid.gov/search?site=lpa_collection&getfields=rec_no.title.ftfilesz&entqr=0&ud=1&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&q=dekad&btnG=SEARCH


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## cecil

Einstein said:


> I see that "decade" is now often used to translate the English "decade" (ten-year period). Of course it should be "decennio", but the anglophilism of Italian journalists knows no bounds...


 
That is incredibly depressing.


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## italtrav

cecil said:


> That is incredibly depressing.




And oddly enough, there is a perfectly good English word, decennial to match decennio.


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## cecil

italtrav said:


> And oddly enough, there is a perfectly good English word, decennial to match decennio.


 
I'm afraid if we live long enough, we are certain to see our language decimated.


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## Einstein

As the initial thread starter I ought to say something!
Probably a reasonable solution for "entro il secondo decade di aprile" is "by the 20th of April" or, more concisely "by 20 April". I'm not sure if that would fit the original context, which I've forgotten...

Like the others, I've no wish to dispute that DEKAD exists, I can only say that I'm absolutely sure that 99% of readers wouldn't understand it.


cecil said:


> I'm afraid if we live long enough, we are certain to see our language decimated.


Well, I think it's the Italian language that's being decimated, with all these allegedly "Anglo-Saxon" neologisms.

Just to emphasise the grammatical point:
A five-minute break
A ten-day period
A 100-metre race
A five-pound note
A ten-dollar bill.


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## london calling

Einstein said:


> As the initial thread starter I ought to say something!
> Probably a reasonable solution for "entro il secondo decade di aprile" is "by the 20th of April" or, more concisely "by 20 April". I'm not sure if that would fit the original context, which I've forgotten...


_Entro la seconda decade/_by 20 April I think is a viable solution, but you try and translate "La merce è stata consegnata nella seconda decade di aprile"! It's a killer! You end up saying something like "the goods were delivered towards mid/end April."

The fact of the matter is that we divide the months up into weeks, not into 10-day periods. For example, if I speak to a foreign supplier and I want him to deliver on 20 April I will either specify "on 20 April" or "(during) week 16". This is now very common in Italian too, fortunately, although the company I work for does like to tell its Italian suppliers that the goods are to be delivered "entro la prima decade di ogni mese" (which I translated in a previous post, as you will have seen).


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## Einstein

london calling said:


> ...try and translate "La merce è stata consegnata nella seconda decade di aprile"! It's a killer!


You're right!


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## MIDAV

From reading this thread, I get the impression that "the second ten days (of a month)" somehow sounds  wrong to a native ear. Is the impression correct? I'm asking because I've been using this expression to translate a similar Russian concept  (similar to Italian seconda decade) denoting the ten days in the middle of a month.

Could I say "the middle ten days (of a month)" instead? Would that sound better?


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## london calling

MIDAV said:


> From reading this thread, I get the impression that "the second ten days (of a month)" somehow sounds wrong to a native ear. Is the impression correct? I'm asking because I've been using this expression to translate a similar Russian concept (similar to Italian seconda decade) denoting the ten days in the middle of a month.
> 
> Could I say "the middle ten days (of a month)" instead? Would that sound better?


Your impression is correct.
_The middle 10 days_ might sound a little better and it would certainly be comprehensible, but I can't say it sounds natural because, as I said before, we don't have this "prima/seconda decade" concept at all in English (so basically any version sounds strange!). And again, as I said before, we prefer to use "week" (_delivery in/at the end of _or _beginning of week 10, 11_ etc. etc).


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> Your impression is correct.
> _The middle 10 days_ might sound a little better and it would certainly be comprehensible, but I can't say it sounds natural because, as I said before, we don't have this "prima/seconda decade" concept at all in English (so basically any version sounds strange!). And again, as I said before, we prefer to use "week" (_delivery in/at the end of _or _beginning of week 10, 11_ etc. etc).



I think people tend to use settimane much more than decadi nowadays unless they're talking about astrology..


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> I think people tend to use settimane much more than decadi nowadays unless they're talking about astrology..


Paul, when I talk to our suppliers I always use "settimane" too, but let me assure you that "decadi" is still common company-talk here, as I mentioned before: I avoid it wherever possible, but sometimes.......


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> Paul, when I talk to our suppliers I always use "settimane" too, but let me assure you that "decadi" is still common company-talk here, as I mentioned before: I avoid it wherever possible, but sometimes.......


Sure, but my impression is that it's becoming less common.


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Sure, but my impression is that it's becoming less common.


True, thank God!


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## Einstein

And this ten-day period is not at all practical! Most months are not made up of three precise 10-day periods and the _decadi _themselves are not uniform; some contain two weekends, others one, so it's not even a standard working period.

Not a linguistic comment, of course. Sorry


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## Paulfromitaly

Einstein said:


> And this ten-day period is not at all practical! Most months are not made up of three precise 10-day periods and the _decadi _themselves are not uniform; some contain two weekends, others one, so it's not even a standard working period.
> 
> Not a linguistic comment, of course. Sorry


Although it's not practical, as you've pointed out, it gives the suppliers a certain leeway: a 10-day period is longer than a week


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## MIDAV

Thanks everybody. Actually, what I had in mind was a scientific context, not commercial. Talking about natural events like snow beginning to melt or temperatures reaching a certain level, using weeks would probably be too vague since they are not tied to the beginning of the month/year (not tied to the natural cycle).


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## london calling

MIDAV said:


> Thanks everybody. Actually, what I had in mind was a scientific context, not commercial. Talking about natural events like snow beginning to melt or temperatures reaching a certain level, using weeks would probably be too vague since they are not tied to the beginning of the month/year (not tied to the natural cycle).


I'm afraid the context in this case makes no difference. We don't talk about 10-day periods as they do in Italian and you do in Russian, full stop. Sorry...


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## MIDAV

london calling said:


> We don't talk about 10-day periods as they do in Italian and you do in Russian, full stop.



Whatever you say, but it still has to be translated


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## london calling

MIDAV said:


> Whatever you say, but it still has to be translated


We already suggested some translations Midav: the one you suggested is as good as anything we could come up with.  What we're saying is that any translation doesn't and can't sound natural, because we don't have the "decadi" concept in English, so you have to work round the idea and render it comprehensible (your sentence does that).


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## wizzerad

cecil said:


> That is incredibly depressing.



Well, I am a native italian speaker and I would say that, maybe little wrongly, in the part of Italy I come from "decade" as italian word is more often used to denote a ten-year period, rather than a ten-day period. You find this usage also here, at the point d) : http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/decade/ 
More practically, you may look for "decade del secolo" in google and you'll find some hundred thousands hits.


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## Einstein

wizzerad said:


> Well, I am a native italian speaker and I would say that, maybe little wrongly, in the part of Italy I come from "decade" as italian word is more often used to denote a ten-year period, rather than a ten-day period. You find this usage also here, at the point d) : http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/decade/
> More practically, you may look for "decade del secolo" in google and you'll find some hundred thousands hits.


Any frequent use, however incorrect originally, will give plenty of google hits and will sooner or later find a place in dictionaries; in the end it will be considered correct. The dictionary's job is to describe, not prescribe. However, note that Treccani gives four references to time periods, the first three meaning ten days and only the fourth meaning ten years.

As for the Google search, the hundreds of thousands of hits are often illusory. You have to go to the bottom of the page and keep clicking on the last page number until you reach the end. I found:
Seconda decade del mese: 305
Seconda decade del secolo: 140


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## curiosone

I'll confess:  I never realized "decade" meant anything other than a 10-year period!   And I'd certainly never use the English "decade" to translate the Italian concept of a 10-day period.
As Paul mentioned previously, 10-day periods (in English) are familiar only in astrological terms.  So, when I realized what "decade" actually means in Italian (in my 21-year job in shipping, we always and only referred to weeks of the year, as Lorena suggested early on), the only English term that came to mind was "cusp" - which refers to the three 10-day periods of each astrological sign.  So you could say "the second cusp", and the concept ("seconda decade") would be clear to a lot more natives, but it would still sound a bit odd in any other context than astrological.


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## wizzerad

Einstein said:


> Any frequent use, however incorrect originally, will give plenty of google hits and will sooner or later find a place in dictionaries; in the end it will be considered correct. The dictionary's job is to describe, not prescribe. However, note that Treccani gives four references to time periods, the first three meaning ten days and only the fourth meaning ten years.
> 
> As for the Google search, the hundreds of thousands of hits are often illusory. You have to go to the bottom of the page and keep clicking on the last page number until you reach the end. I found:
> Seconda decade del mese: 305
> Seconda decade del secolo: 140



Hi Einstein, thanks for the reply.  
I completely agree with you that "decade", in the italian dictionary of some 50 years ago, probably was only meaning a ten-day period, and that only recently, due to the widespread incorrect usage, has got the meaning of ten-year period. However, dictionary is what the italian language has come to be now and if you asked whether or not that usage is correct today, we must surely answer "yes, now it is". 

As to the hits in google, I get 482.000 hits and I can go to the 34th page and select "include similar results", for which the whole 482.000 hits are displayed. If you don't do that, then only some hundreds are displayed, as you pointed out. Taking your results, 305 hits against 140 sounds like at least one third of Italy uses "decade" to indicate a ten-year period, which is quite a large amount . Given that, I would not underestimate the acquired meaning of ten-year period, if you want to be understood in Italy (or in my family for example ). Many people here use "decade" as indicating both a ten-day period and a ten-year period.

In another thread (forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=329416) I see that you already pointed out this issue, when another italian user was using "decade" as italian word to denote a ten-year period.  I believe that this originally misuse is now really widespread and must be definitely taken into account.


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## Teerex51

wizzerad said:


> Many people *here* use "decade" as indicating both a ten-day period and a ten-yer period.


Hi Wizzerad, can you tell us where _here_ is? Earlier you mentioned _"__the part of Italy I come from"_, but we're still none the wiser.


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## wizzerad

Hi Teerex51,
I am from the nothern part of the region Marche.


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## Teerex51

Thanks for the info, I'll quiz a few friends I have there. 

Funny thing, this _decade_ conundrum...I know at some stage I must have said _decade_ in Italian meaning _ten-year period_ in English, but I'm the same guy who used the bogus adverb _basicamente_ for years fully convinced it was a bona fide Italian word.
It's taken me ages to grow out of that habit.


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## mr cat

Just reading through this thread I came to realise that no-body has suggested improvising and using the terms 'initial, middle and final third'.
So: the initial third of the month - la prima decade del mese.
the middle third of the month  -  la seconda decade del mese
the final third of the month - la terza decade del mese
I realise that it's not ideal (possible confusion with third as a date) but still an option isn't it? Tin hat on .

Just one question, when you Italians use decade to mean 10 years is it still the Italian pronounciation?


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## Teerex51

mr cat said:


> Just one question, when you Italians use decade to mean 10 years is it still the Italian pron*o*unciation?


_DEH-ca-deh _in both cases. And it's _pronunciation_


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## Einstein

mr cat said:


> So: the initial third of the month - la prima decade del mese.
> the middle third of the month  -  la seconda decade del mese
> the final third of the month - la terza decade del mese


A reasonable translation. It still sounds odd, though, simply because the 10-day period isn't used in English, as others have pointed out.


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## Paulfromitaly

Einstein said:


> A reasonable translation. It still sounds odd, though, simply because the 10-day period isn't used in English, as others have pointed out.



That's when the translator's expertise comes into play: for example a professional would often translate decina as dozen because it makes much more sense 
Strictly speaking a decade is a group of ten items, be them years, days or seconds!


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## Einstein

wizzerad said:


> I believe that this original misuse is now really widespread and must be definitely taken into account.


Certainly! If I see the word "decade" in an Italian newspaper article I'm open to both meanings. But I will continue to say "decennio" when I mean ten years; so far no one has tried to correct me with "decade".


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