# שבת



## rushalaim

1. Is the word שבת has the root שבת ?
2. The verb שבת has infinitive לשבת , the verb ישב has infinitive לשבת . May I assume those verbs: שבת and ישב have the common root ישב ?


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## amikama

Did you mean שַׁבָּת (Sabbath/Saturday) or שָׁבַת (he struck) or שֶׁבֶת (sitting)?
שַׁבָּת and שָׁבַת have the root ש-ב-ת. 
שֶׁבֶת has the root י-ש-ב.


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## rushalaim

I read that the word שַׁבָּת is Assyrian in origin (Shabbatu), like Tzitzit (Sisiktu).  
Maybe, verbs שָׁבַת and ישב have the common root ישב ?


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## origumi

Some useful comments here: El origen de la actual palabra castellana "sábado"., Sabbath, Arabic/Hebrew: days of the week


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## rushalaim

1. Perhaps the noun *שַׁבָּת* is _Akkadian_. 
Egypt had two calendars: Solar 10 days week 30 days month 12 months and 5 additional days in the end of a year, and only priests used Lunar calendar for their cult.
Jews used Egyptian Solar calendar in Egypt before Exodus.
Then, God ordered to Moses to use Lunar calendar (Exodus 12). The noun  *שַׁבָּת* firstly appeared after Exodus when the new Lunar calendar was used (Exodus 16:23).
Later, Jewish priests counted Lunar months using Solar calendar to keep seasons and Pascal-feast in Spring, in secret, and common Jews were using only Lunar calendar daily.
In year 500, when Talmud appeared Pharisees(rabbies) mixed their Luni-Solar calendar with Christian Solar calendar together, thus Jewish Lunar-Shabbath started be celebrating on Christian Solar-Saturday.
According to Jewish Encyclopedia Shabbath was always celebrated according to Lunar calendar in ancient time. Lunar-Sabbath are 8, 15, 22, 29 days of the Lunar month.
SABBATH - JewishEncyclopedia.com
_"The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day."_

2. My main question is about the verbs שָׁבַת and ישב
Did they derive from the common root ישב ?


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## Drink

Akkadian and Hebrew are related languages. If you find a cognate word in Hebrew and Akkadian, that doesn't mean Hebrew necessarily borrowed it _from_ Akkadian, it could easily have been inherited by both languages their common ancestor.


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## GeriReshef

My limited knowledge doesn't enable me to decide whether or not there is a connection between שבת and ישב.
However, if you are trying to formulate a thesis that both verbs has a common meaning of sitting / resting / avoid doing / stop working / etc; note that the verb ישב appears in the bible generally in the meaning of living (somewhere) or staying, and less as sitting on a chair.


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## rushalaim

Yes, you understood my assumption right, I think that Sabbath doesn't have any connection with the verb שָׁבַת
I think, Bible time didn't have any chairs at all. They had tents to live. Maybe modern word "strike" has also double meaning: to cease working and to sit on a ground with slogans to protest against smth. (like in Biblical time in a tent). Moreover, infinitives are similar: לשבת and לשבת


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> Bible time


"Bible time" is some 1300 years since the patriarchs, more if we take the far past, with a lot of cultural and technological change.



> didn't have any chairs at all.


Chair כסא is mentioned dozens of times in the Bible, usually meaning "throne".



> They had tents to live.


Israelites were urbanized since about 1000BC.



> Maybe modern word "strike" has also double meaning: to cease working and to sit on a ground with slogans to protest against smth. (like in Biblical time in a tent).


This has nothing to do with Biblical Hebrew.



> Moreover, infinitives are similar: לשבת and לשבת


Not so similar: "lishbot" vs. "lashevet". There are numerous examples of incidental similarity of written / spoken words in Hebrew.


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## rushalaim

"Strike" I meant שביתה
I mean if the word שַׁבָּת was appeared just after the Jewish exodus from Egypt, Jews were lived in their tents in the desert on a ground. And of course, there were not any chairs then.
ראו כי יי נתן לכם *השבת* על כן הוא נתן לכם ביום הששי לחם יומים *שבו* *איש תחתיו* אל יצא איש ממקמו ביום השביעי


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## utopia

Actually, I've read somewhere that the name of the god Zeus is related to the root SH.B.T.

ZeVuS>SH.V.TH???


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## Drink

utopia said:


> Actually, I've read somewhere that the name of the god Zeus is related to the root SH.B.T.
> 
> ZeVuS>SH.V.TH???



That's nonsense. In Ancient Greek it was pronounced zews (with a "w"), and the "s" is only a marker of the nominative and not part of the stem.


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## utopia

thanks for the info.

I don't remember where I read about this alleged etymology, but it looked convincing, at least back then.


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## rushalaim

One more passage about Sabbath in Pentateuch:
בסכת *תשבו* שבעת ימים כל האזרח בישראל *ישבו* בסכת


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## fdb

For a very recent discussion of the etymology of "Sabbath" you might want to look at this:
The Etymology of 'Sabbath' - Calendars in Antiquity and the Middle Ages


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> One more passage about Sabbath in Pentateuch:
> בסכת *תשבו* שבעת ימים כל האזרח בישראל *ישבו* בסכת



What does that have to do with the Sabbath?


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> What does that have to do with the Sabbath?


Succot (Tishrei 15) is the full-moon, it is Sabbath also according to the Lunar-calendar.
The Lunar-month' Sabbaths are 8, 15, 22, 29 days.

All holidays depend on the moon. Pascal-feast is full-moon, Succot is full-moon, Rosh-haShanah is Rosh-Hhodesh, Day of Atonement depends on Rosh-haShanah/Rosh-Hhodesh, Pentacost depends on Pascal-feast.

The Pascal-feast (Nisan 15) is also Lunar-Sabbath of the full-moon.
Rabbis say that Karaites counted Omer (sheaf) after Sabbath:
והניף את העמר לפני יי לרצנכם ממחרת *השבת* יניפנו הכהן
Rabbis say one must count Omer right after Pascal-feast:
וספרתם לכם ממחרת *השבת* מיום הביאכם את עמר התנופה שבע שבתות תמימת תהיינה
I think both opinions are correct, but Karaites' view is older and thus more correct. If Sabbath must be celebrated according to the Lunar-calendar like all holidays, Pascal-feast is the Lunar-Sabbath and Omer is counted right after it.


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## origumi

And yet, what does "בַּסֻּכֹּת תֵּשְׁבוּ שִׁבְעַת יָמִים כָּל הָאֶזְרָח בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל יֵשְׁבוּ בַּסֻּכֹּת" have to do with the Sabbath?
And what does the Omer counting demonstrate about שבת-ישב or anything else in this thread?
The Karaites emerged two millennia after the Hebrew calendar was set, how are they related to the basic meaning of Shabbath?


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## rushalaim

1. Karaites are the followers of Sadduces who got their calendar from Moses.
2. Succot is the Lunar-calendar Sabbath.
3. I assume, there is connection between *שבת* and *ישב* verbs. Pentateuch tells us to sit (literally) inside our tent/sukkah all Sabbath through. I think, the verb *שבת* derived from the root *ישב* . 

Examples:
ויאמר אלהם הוא אשר דבר יי שבתון *שבת* קדש ליי מחר את אשר תאפו אפו ואת אשר תבשלו בשלו ואת כל העדף הניחו לכם למשמרת עד הבקר
ראו כי יי נתן לכם *השבת* על כן הוא נתן לכם ביום הששי לחם יומים *שבו איש תחתיו* אל יצא איש ממקמו ביום השביעי
והניף את העמר לפני יי לרצנכם ממחרת *השבת* יניפנו הכהן
וספרתם לכם ממחרת *השבת* מיום הביאכם את עמר התנופה שבע שבתות תמימת תהיינה
בסכת *תשבו* שבעת ימים כל האזרח בישראל *ישבו* בסכת


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## origumi

The claim that קראים Karaites are followers of Sadduces mean nothing until you bring a reliable source or argument. They were tagged like that as a contempt.
The צדוקים Sadduces emerged more than a millennium after Moses, they are not closer to Moses than the פרושים Pharisees or any other 2nd temple Jewish sect.
Those claims about Succot as Sabbath mean nothing until you bring a reliable source or argument.
Your examples demonstrate merely nothing. You can claim as well that שבת is related to שבע.

If we want to have a fruitful discussion, it's better not to flood it with new doubtful facts whenever asked to establish former ones.


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## rushalaim

1. I really doubt that the word _"Sabbath"_ derived from the numeral _"Seven"_, though connection is obvious.
2. I agree, as Saddusees(priests) as Pharisees(rabbis) were appeared at the same time by Moses. But their purpose was quite different.
Sadducees counted Luni-Solar calendar in secret and declared the New-Moon coming aloud. That was their own right by the law.
Pharisees were judges to judge financial cases in courts among Jewish nation. No more.
3. Pentateuch gives you reliable sources that Pascal-feast and Succot are the Lunar-calendar's Sabbaths both in the full-moon of the day 15.
והניף את העמר לפני יי לרצנכם ממחרת *השבת* יניפנו הכהן

By the way, modern rabbis forbid to wave Lulav if seven days of Succot fall on Saturday. But that is rabbinical invention, I assume. Only the first day of Succot of seven falls on Sabbath always because of Tishrei 15 is the full-moon and the Lunar-calendar's Sabbath always.
NEW MOON - JewishEncyclopedia.com


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## fdb

There is a lot of modern scholarly work on the history of the Jewish calendar, notably: Sacha Stern, "Calendar and community", Oxford 2001:

Calendar and Community:A History of the Jewish Calendar, 2nd Century BCE to 10th Century CE



origumi said:


> The Karaites emerged two millennia after the Hebrew calendar was set.



Stern has shown that there is no evidence for the Jewish calendar in its current Rabbinic form before the 9th century CE. By that time the Karaites were in full swing.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Stern has shown that there is no evidence for the Jewish calendar in its current Rabbinic form before the 9th century CE. By that time the Karaites were in full swing.


I referred to the calendar part that dictates holiday times, not necessarily the medieval/modern calendar. I think there's no doubt that in Biblical time (for sure after returning for Babylon, 6th century BC) the holidays were celebrated in fixed days of the lunar month, not according to the hypothetical proto-Sabbath described above. I don't think there's robust info about the situation in pre-David time (before 10th century BC). It seems fishy to me establishing the etymology of Sabbath on hypothetical Calendar, Clends-Ides-Nones-like days, the semi-nomadic ways of early Israelites.

Unless good arguments or references in favor a revisionary Shabbath are shown, which I don't see in this thread.


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## fdb

origumi said:


> I think there's no doubt that in Biblical time (for sure after returning for Babylon, 6th century BC) the holidays were celebrated in fixed days of the lunar month, not according to the hypothetical proto-Sabbath described above.



We agree on this.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> I think there's no doubt that in Biblical time (for sure after returning for Babylon, 6th century BC) the holidays were celebrated in fixed days of the lunar month


It's absolutely impossible! If Jews would follow your assumption, their spring holidays would be celebrated in Autumn, like Muslims' Lunar-calendar makes. 
Moses and Jews used Jewish Lunar-calendar with Egyptian Solar-calendar in order to their holidays would follow their seasons.  
CALENDAR, HISTORY OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
CALENDAR - JewishEncyclopedia.com


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## fdb

Have you ever heard of intercalation?


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## Drink

origumi said:


> I think there's no doubt that in Biblical time (for sure after returning for Babylon, 6th century BC) the holidays were celebrated in fixed days of the lunar month, not according to the hypothetical proto-Sabbath described above.



Just to clarify, the Akkadian _šapattu_/_šabattu_ was the name for the 15th day of the lunar month. The problem is that rushalaim keeps conflating terminology, making his unlikely but perhaps possible claims seem confusing and ridiculous. Even if the word שבת is related to to the Akkadian word _šapattu_/_šabattu_, that doesn't mean the words can be used interchangeably; they still refer to entirely different concepts.


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## origumi

Claims I saw in this thread:
(1) שבת and ישב are originated from the same root. No supporting argument for that in the thread, doesn't look likely to me unless we talk about Proto-Semitic.
(2) שבת is from Akkadian šabattu. No supporting argument for that in the thread, I cannot judge how likely it is.
(3) After The Exodus (12th-10th century BC or even later) Sabbath marked a specific day in the lunar month. No supporting argument for that in the thread.

The Bible excepts above that contain שבת, ישב in the same sentence do not help.
The Karaite tradition doesn't help.
The fact that for some holidays days are counted starting Sabbath doesn't help.


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## fdb

origumi said:


> (2) שבת is from Akkadian šabattu. No supporting argument for that in the thread, I cannot judge how likely it is.



Do have a look at the paper linked in no. 15.


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