# Mood



## Alxmrphi

Okay, I know about moods, there are four moods in Italian, The Indictative / Imperative / Subjunctive / Conditional.

I've been racking my brain trying to understand the subjunctive recently and last week when I was in work, something hit me, I will explain what I mean and hopefully you can tell me if I am right.

In all language, expressing, well words there has to be a mood, if the indicative expresses facts and the imperative expresses orders/suggestions and the conditional expresses possibility then the subjunctive is used in sentences where none of the above fit?

"I don't think I am going to go out tonight"
"I hope that one day I meet Yngwie Malmsteen"

These aren't facts, or orders, suggestions or conditions.

Is this where the subjunctive is used? Do I have the logic correct on understanding this?

******

My next question was, what is it's function? first person singular conjugated of essere becomes sia, why not use sono ? I think this might be one of those things where I will understand it after accepting it without questioning it.

Thank You.


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## F4sT

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Okay, I know about moods, there are four moods in Italian, The Indictative / Imperative / Subjunctive / Conditional.
> 
> I've been racking my brain trying to understand the subjunctive recently and last week when I was in work, something hit me, I will explain what I mean and hopefully you can tell me if I am right.
> 
> In all language, expressing, well words there has to be a mood, if the indicative expresses facts and the imperative expresses orders/suggestions and the conditional expresses possibility then the subjunctive is used in sentences where none of the above fit?
> 
> "I don't think I am going to go out tonight"
> "I hope that one day I meet Yngwie Malmsteen"
> 
> These aren't facts, or orders, suggestions or conditions.
> 
> Is this where the subjunctive is used? Do I have the logic correct on understanding this?
> 
> ******
> 
> My next question was, what is it's function? first person singular conjugated of essere becomes sia, why not use sono ? *I think this might be one of those things where I will understand it after accepting it without questioning it.*_ (You are right ^_-)_
> 
> Thank You.


 
"I don't think I am going to go out tonight"= Non penso *di uscire* sta sera
"I hope that one day I meet Yngwie Malmsteen"= Spero che un giorno incontrerò Yngwie Malmsteen


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## Alxmrphi

Okay, that sort of helps, but the post was essentially about when to use it, what are your thoughts on what I posted? Am I close?


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## **ellie**

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Okay, I know about moods, there are four moods in Italian, The Indictative / Imperative / Subjunctive / Conditional.
> 
> I've been racking my brain trying to understand the subjunctive recently and last week when I was in work, something hit me, I will explain what I mean and hopefully you can tell me if I am right.
> 
> In all language, expressing, well words there has to be a mood, if the indicative expresses facts and the imperative expresses orders/suggestions and the conditional expresses possibility then the subjunctive is used in sentences where none of the above fit?
> 
> "I don't think I am going to go out tonight"
> "I hope that one day I meet Yngwie Malmsteen" In order to how you translate these two sentences in italian they ARE facts, so you cannot use the subjunctive.
> 
> These aren't facts, or orders, suggestions or conditions.
> 
> Is this where the subjunctive is used? Do I have the logic correct on understanding this?
> 
> ******
> 
> My next question was, what is it's function? first person singular conjugated of essere becomes sia, why not use sono ? I think this might be one of those things where I will understand it after accepting it without questioning it.
> 
> Thank You.


 
HI, ok in some cases you can use both of them like: I hope you are feeling better: Spero tu ti SENTA meglio and, Spero che ti SENTI meglio.
First one is sub. second one is normal present! In spoken language you don't make that difference anymore but the problem is when you have to use the sub. and cannot cheat such as: Speravo che tu venissi: I wish you had come (you don't have the sub. in english have you?) well here it is clear that we are in the impossibility field, IT HASN'T HAPPENED, but how if I say: Solo se tu venissi ti perdonerei: Just if you came I'd forgive you (here too you escape with a simple past), this is not impossible but possible, YOU STILL MIGHT COME.

Eheh, 100% I confused your mind more but this is how I explain things ahah...I'll look for a better explaination, let me know exactly whay you cannot understand


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## Alxmrphi

You did (ish)!

It sort of made sense though. What did you mean when you said you don't make the difference in the spoken language?
Can you list out a set of rules that I can work through to see if I need to use the subjunctive?

I see how my two examples are actually factual.
Is it used in the past mostly? How is it used in the future?

Okay, If I can give a few examples that need the subjunctive in Italian and they are correct I will be a lot happier.

"I might do so later"
"I wondered if he knew how to do that" -* ahh, I think thats a factual one.*
"I didn't know at the time"
"You might upset me if you do that again" - *Again, I think this might be fact.*

Well, what about the other ones, I can't think of any others.


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## Alxmrphi

(Please keep seperate)



> The Subjunctive mood expresses doubt, uncertainty, hope, fear, possibility, opinions, etc. and is used much more frequently in Italian.  It is mainly used in dependent clauses (sentences introduced by a conjunction that do not have a complete meaning) that are introduced by _che_.


 
Okay, I see it expresses fear.

*I fear you* - This is a fact and not expressing uncertainty, do I need sub?

Or do all (well, most) of those different topics of language normally express non-factual statements that naturally take the subjunctive?


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## **ellie**

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> You did (ish)!
> 
> It sort of made sense though. What did you mean when you said you don't make the difference in the spoken language?
> Can you list out a set of rules that I can work through to see if I need to use the subjunctive?
> 
> I see how my two examples are actually factual.
> Is it used in the past mostly? How is it used in the future?
> 
> Okay, If I can give a few examples that need the subjunctive in Italian and they are correct I will be a lot happier.
> 
> "I might do so later" it is not sub. but a conditional
> "I wondered if he knew how to do that" -* ahh, I think thats a factual one.*Mi chiedevo se lui sapesse come farlo OPPURE Mi chiedevo se lui _sapeva _come farlo (you see how you can put l'imperfetto indicativo, instead of l'imperfetto congiuntivo
> "I didn't know at the time" this is a simple past
> "You might upset me if you do that again" - *Again, I think this might be fact. *Mi sconvolgeresti se lo facessi ancora. A conditinal followed by a sub.
> 
> Well, what about the other ones, I can't think of any others.


 
The sub. in italian has just 4forms, and no future, you can't use it for a future action, the forms are: presente, passato, imperfetto, trapassato!

Il congiuntivo è il modo verbale del dubbio, della possibilità, dell'incertezza e del desiderio. Se l'indicativo è il modo dell'obbietà e indica i fatti come sono nella realtà, il congiuntivo è il modo della SOGGETTIVITA', e indica i fatti come li pensiamo, li sentiamo, li desideriamo o li speriamo:
ie: Spero tu venga (cong presente), Ho paura che faccia tardi (cong presente), Penso se abbia fatto bene (cong passato), vorrei che tu venissi (cong imperfetto). ALL OF THEM CAN BE CHANGED INTO THE INDICATIVE MOOD like this: Spero che tu verrai (spoken lang), Ho paura che arriverà tardi (same), Penso che hai fatto bene, Vorrei che vieni (sounds horrible).
So don't be surprised if you hear something like this.
 Hope I've been better at explaination !
​


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## **ellie**

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> (Please keep seperate)
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I see it expresses fear.
> 
> *I fear you* - This is a fact and not expressing uncertainty, do I need sub? Nope this is something sure I DO FEAR YOU, the sub ca be used: I'm afraid he won't come, where you use the future we'd say: Ho paura che non venga, but you can also say, Ho paura che non verrà. I really believe it is the same!
> 
> Or do all (well, most) of those different topics of language normally express non-factual statements that naturally take the subjunctive?


 
Ask me everything else you need ahah you made look at my VERY OLD italian grammar books!
​


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## Alxmrphi

Hiya Ellie, you have really helped but I'm afraid I still dont get it, I am going to read and pummel it into my head and practice with it.

Can you give me sentences (In English) where (when translated into Italian) would need

Subjunctive
Indicative
Subjunctive
 Indicative
Subjunctive
 Indicative

For as long as you want to! The more I see examples the easier I think it will be.


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## JasonNPato

From my grammar book:
"The subjunctive mood allows you to express a point of view, fear, doubt, hope, possibility -- anything that is not a fact..."

Some of the most common verbs it is used after are:
credere
desiderare
dubitare
immaginare
pensare
sembrare
sperare
volere


some examples

crede che loro arrivino stasera. *He thinks they are arriving tonight*

Dubitano che voi finiate in tempo. *They doubt that they will finish in time.*


again from my book: "Impersonal verbs or expressions that precede the relative clause also require the subjunctive. An impersonal expression is one only used in the third person."

Ex. = E' probabile che il professore non ti conosca. *It's probable that the professor doesn't know you.*

Bisogna che tu studi una lingua straniera. *It's necessary that you study a foreign language.*


It's also used after superlative expressions...

Tu sei la piu` intelligente che io conosca. *You are the most intelligent one I know.*


and finally...It is used after certain conjunctions and indefinite pronouns...

_Dovunque_ tu vada, io ti seguiro`. *Wherever you go, I will follow you.*

_Benche` piova, _esco lo stesso. *Although it's raining, I'm going out just the same.*

Here is a list of common words.
*Indefintie pronouns*
_chiunque_
_dovunque_
_qualsiasi/qualunque cosa_

*Conjunctions*
_affince`_
_benche`/ sebbene_
_come se *(although with this one, I've often seen the conditional)*_
_nel caso che_
_nonostante che_
_senza che_
_prima che_
_purche`_


I hope this helps...basically, you can try to remember the rule...but for me...it's less confusing just to memorize the words.


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## cas29

English does actually have the subjunctive.

this site explains it quite well
http://www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/guide.html


"Long live the king!"
"May God be with you". 
"I wish I were with you"
(we use the past tense here, even though it isn't the past because it is the subjunctive)

English used to have inflections and it was a lot easier to identify this mood, - but with the evolution of the language they disappeared.


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## moodywop

JasonNPato said:
			
		

> ..basically, you can try to remember the rule...but for me...it's less confusing just to memorize the words.


 
Jason, I agree. I think when rules are too abstract(uncertainty, doubt etc) they're not very helpful. The best thing is to study lots of examples and memorize the main verbs/phrases which are foillowed by a subjunctive. One of our indefatigable _moderatrici, _Jana, is in the process of revising an extremely comprehensive of such verbs/phrases/adjectives, which I hope she will share with us 




			
				JasonNPato said:
			
		

> again from my book: "Impersonal verbs or expressions that precede the relative clause also require the subjunctive. An impersonal expression is one only used in the third person."
> 
> Ex. = E' probabile che il professore non ti conosca. *It's probable that the professor doesn't know you.*
> 
> Bisogna che tu studi una lingua straniera. *It's necessary that you study a foreign language.*


 
Are you sure that's what your textbook says? There are no relative clauses in your examples. Here's an example of a subjunctive in a relative clause: _sto cercando qualcuno che possa aiutarmi con questa traduzione._

_



			come se *(although with this one, I've often seen the conditional)*

Click to expand...

_ 
Are you sure you're not confusing _come se _with _come si, _as in _come si potrebbe aiutarlo?(what can we do to help him?)._

_Come se _is always followed by a subjunctive: _si comporta come se fossimo ai suoi ordini(he acts as if we were at his beck and call)._
_Come se _can also be used at the beginning of a sentence: _Come se non lo sapesse!(As if he didn't know!)_

Carlo


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## Alxmrphi

sono molto confondo, ma, proverò capire tutto questo.



> some examples
> 
> crede che loro arrivino stasera. *He thinks they are arriving tonight*
> Dubitano che voi finiate in tempo. *They doubt that they will finish in time.*
> 
> again from my book: "Impersonal verbs or expressions that precede the relative clause also require the subjunctive. An impersonal expression is one only used in the third person."
> 
> Ex. = E' probabile che il professore non ti conosca. *It's probable that the professor doesn't know you.*
> 
> Bisogna che tu studi una lingua straniera. *It's necessary that you study a foreign language.*
> 
> It's also used after superlative expressions...
> Tu sei la piu` intelligente che io conosca. *You are the most intelligent one I know.*
> 
> and finally...It is used after certain conjunctions and indefinite pronouns...
> _Dovunque_ tu vada, io ti seguiro`. *Wherever you go, I will follow you.*
> _Benche` piova, _esco lo stesso. *Although it's raining, I'm going out just the same.
> *



puoi mi dà dove il conjuntivi è usato?


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## JasonNPato

moodywop said:
			
		

> Jason, I agree. I think when rules are too abstract(uncertainty, doubt etc) they're not very helpful. The best thing is to study lots of examples and memorize the main verbs/phrases which are foillowed by a subjunctive. One of our indefatigable _moderatrici, _Jana, is in the process of revising an extremely comprehensive of such verbs/phrases/adjectives, which I hope she will share with us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure that's what your textbook says? There are no relative clauses in your examples. Here's an example of a subjunctive in a relative clause: _sto cercando qualcuno che possa aiutarmi con questa traduzione._
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure you're not confusing _come se _with _come si, _as in _come si potrebbe aiutarlo?(what can we do to help him?)._
> 
> _Come se _is always followed by a subjunctive: _si comporta come se fossimo ai suoi ordini(he acts as if we were at his beck and call)._
> _Come se _can also be used at the beginning of a sentence: _Come se non lo sapesse!(As if he didn't know!)_
> 
> Carlo


 
You know...for some reason I always have a tendency to call the imperfect subjunctive the "conditional."  
So forgive me please, because they don't teach us Americans about that stuff and so we don't know what to call any of the moods or tenses unless we go well out of our way to find out... 

as for the relative clause thing...I'm actually not sure what a relative clause even is. I thought that it only meant the clause to which the verb relates. In other words, the part of the sentence in which the verb actually is.
But yes, that is what my book says.


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## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> sono molto confuso, ma, proverò a capire tutto questo.
> 
> 
> 
> puoi dirmi dove si usa il congiuntivo?


 
Don't get confused by this:  The subjunctive and il congiuntivo _are one and the same thing_.  

Thus, Jason's examples of the subjunctive (the English word) _are _examples of il congiuntivo (la parola italiana).


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## JasonNPato

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> sono molto confondo, ma, proverò capire tutto questo.
> 
> 
> 
> puoi mi dà dove il conjuntivi è usato?


 
The example with _benche_ was one...

Carlo gave us some others with _come se_...

Nel caso che non ti veda stasera, mi lasci abbraciarti adesso! *In case I don't see you tonight, let me hug you now!*

Also, I forgot one more case where you need subjunctive.
"to express wishes and exhortations."

_Che scriva lui! *Let him write!*_
_Che mangi tutto! *Let him eat everything!*_
_(Che) I think the "che" is optional here Dio ce la mandi buona! *God help us!*_
_Dio lo voglia! *God willing*_


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## LoPhatEuro

Alex
Time was when one might read in the Times: Would that I had the means to procure a dwelling ( a flourish of the subjunctive). In the Sun (popular English newspaper) that would be rendered: I wish I had the dosh to buy a gaff. The fact is that the subjunctive is used in the dons common rooms but has fallen out of use on the street. Can it be that all Italians speak in the former manner.


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## Alxmrphi

Ciao LoPhatEuro, ma non ho capito che ha detto. può lo dire differentemente per favore?

spero che un giorno capirò il conjungtivo, speramente!

Grazie a tutto per tutto i vostri aiuto!!!!

spero che ho detto tutto questo vero!


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## Jana337

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Ciao LoPhatEuro, ma non ho capito che hai/avevi detto.
> 
> 
> 
> può
> 
> 
> 
> puoi lo  dirlo differentemente in modo diverso per favore?
> 
> Spero che un giorno capirò il congiuntivo, speramente! Magari! Speramente secondo me non esiste. Temo che l'italiano non abbia un equivalente molto preciso per hopefully.
> 
> Grazie a tutti (tutto - everything) per tutto il vostro aiuto!!!!
> 
> Spero che ho detto tutto questo vero di aver detto tutto bene (questo è ancora difficile per te, non preoccuparti)!
Click to expand...


NB:
In questo forum ci diamo del tu (non diciamo "Lei è molto gentile, Elisa, può spiegarmelo?" però "tu sei molto gentile, Elisa, puoi spiegarmelo?").

E dopo aver scritto qualcosa (after writing something) prova a rileggerlo e trovare degli errori. Per esempio sono sicura che avevi potuto trovare gli errori in questa frase:
 Grazie a tutti (tutto - everything) per tutto il vostro aiuto!!!!

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

Oah, non so che ho fatto cosi molto errori!
Penso che (the plural form of _*you*_ had to have a plural definite article) ma penso che mi sono sbagliato.

Ahh ho sempre stato confondo circa (I hope this has the same use in both ways in Italian as it does in English) usare tutto e tutti, porterò più tempo trovare il vero parola nel futuro!

(I desperatly hope when explaining that I will take more time to find the correct word's I didn't make a mistake)

Arrivederci a tutt_*i*_


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## b2b

Jana337 said:
			
		

> NB:
> Magari! Speramente secondo me non esiste. Temo che l'italiano non abbia un equivalente molto preciso per hopefully.


Io tradurrei "speramente" (che non esite in italiano) con "_lo spero_!";


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## Alxmrphi

Ahh non lo so, pensa la parola italiano che provo trovare?
penso che se porto "mente" alla fine della parola "sper" (hope) dunque avrò la parola "hopefully", ma adesso penso che ero sbagliato.

Mi Dispiace se la mia italiano è cattivo ma io provo molto lo perfezionare.


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## b2b

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Ahh non lo so, pensa la parola italiano che provo trovare? (questo non l'ho capito...)
> pensavo che se avessi messo "mente" alla fine della parola "speranza" (hope) dunque avròavrei creato la parola "hopefully", ma adesso ho capito che mi sono sbagliato.
> 
> Mi Dispiace se il mio italiano non è buono ma io provo molto a migliorami.




Italian is not esperanto, where you can build whatever word you want


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## Alxmrphi

I have no idea what esperanto means but I never tried to "invent" a word, I've seen so many times before, a word I knew, where "mente" was appended to the end and it qualified to mean "word-lly", I thought if I did the same with the stem to what I thought meant "hope" it would make the word "hopefully"



> Ahh non lo so, pensa la parola italiano che provo trovare? (questo non l'ho capito...)




I'll have another go..

puoi pensare della parola che provo trovare?


Im going to try and write some examples with Jana's file and see if I can make my first correct sentence with a subjunctive in.


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## b2b

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I have no idea what esperanto means but I never tried to "invent" a word, I've seen so many times before, a word I knew, where "mente" was appended to the end and it qualified to mean "word-lly", I thought if I did the same with the stem to what I thought meant "hope" it would make the word "hopefully"
> 
> I'll have another go..
> 
> puoi pensare della parola che provo trovare?
> 
> 
> Im going to try and write some examples with Jana's file and see if I can make my first correct sentence with a subjunctive in.
> [/color]



Esperanto is an "costructed" language, with a very simple grammar.
My _guess_ of your sentence: _Riesci a capire la parola che sto cercando di trovare?_

Ciao


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## Alxmrphi

I'm pretty sure you have good enough English to understand what someone at the level I am at, is trying to say. Okay it might not be perfect, but my problem isn't about the structure of the sentence, it's the answer, can anyone _else_ help me please?


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## ElaineG

*Alex*, what is the question? This thread has gotten _very_ convoluted.  If the question is, how I do I say "hopefully" in Italian or something else, I ask you to start a new thread.

This thread is about the use of the subjunctive to express a certain mood.

Thanks.


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah, the point of where we are, is I want to say something that expresses desire, hope, I want to know how to say hopefully, and then try and create as many sentences using the subjunctive to see if I can see how to use it, it all is linked.


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## ElaineG

Alex, to say "I hope that...", you say "spero che...." and then the clause after spero can be put in the subjunctive.

The use of "hopefully" as a shortcut for "I hope" is a  relatively recent development in English and is still considered to be wrong by many many people, (see this interesting article: http://www.mediabistro.com/articles/cache/a4028.asp), so it is not surprising that there is no direct Italian translation for that usage.


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## Alxmrphi

Oh okay, What in your opinion is the closest translation to it, that would require a subjunctive conjugation? magari?


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## ElaineG

Very good, *Alex*.  I think "magari" could work quite nicely.  Of course, I'm not a native speaker.


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah I was thinking that, but.. I think it can only substitute for the use of hopefully in this sense : 

*Hopefully I will be rich
Magari sarò ricco.*

but not necessarily in the sense of :

Dave : Hey, you going to Amsterdam on monday
Alex : Yeah, oh come on, you should go too.
Dave : I don't really have the money, but I'll try, and hopefully I will be able  to go.

In this sense, if magari is translated as "if only" / "I wish that.." then it sort of portrays an idea that the speaker doesn't really think they can do, it's a "ohh sigh" moment whereas *hopefully* shows enthusiasm and chance.


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