# lembrar-se, lembrar-se de



## anoronha

hello,

Cam someone please tell me where should 'Lembrar-se' or 'Lembrar-se de' be used.

Why is the 'de' added in some cases and not in others.

Todos lembram-se do que aconteceu.  -  de is used

Lembras-te de Ana?  -  de is not used

Similarly,

Esqueci-me do chapéu no autocarro.  - de is used

Why is that de added after the reflexive verb?

thanks


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## Jabir

Hello! 

First of all, there's no need to explain every single case (like "lembrar", "esquecer", etc...) You just need to know the difference between a Direct Transitive Verb and an Indirect Transitive Verb. 

All Indirect Transitive Verbs DO NEED an preposition (in this case, "de"). 

This "de" is what is called preposition. And, as "esquecer" and "lembrar" are Indirect Transitive Verbs, they do need the preposition. 

And, in your example, "Lembras-te de Ana?" you used the "de". 
"Lembras-te *de *Ana?"

The only case where there would be no need of the "de" would be in sentences without the Object, or where the Object is ommited:

Example:

- Lembras-te de Ana?
- Lembro! ("de" is omitted here. The full sentence would be: "Lembro de Ana!", but there is no need to make such long sentence).

Now... How do you know if a verb is Direct Transitive or Indirect Transitive? Well, I think that just through practice you may know, or looking in the dictionary.

Hope I made myself clear.

Bye and luck with Portuguese!


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## anoronha

Muito obrigado. Isso foi muito útil.  excuse the mistakes pls


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## Jabir

No problems 

Are you trying to learn Brazilian Portuguese or the one spoken in Portugal?


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## anoronha

The one spoken in Portugal because that's the one used in Goa ( a former portuguese colony).. but it sounds all gibberish!
I love the way the Brazilian accent sounds.. its easier to understand and it sounds so much better than the European one.


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## Jabir

Anoronha, check again my post explaining the rule.. I made some mistakes hehehe


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## anoronha

In my question I wanted to write this example of a sentence where the *de* isnt written...

Lembras-te a que horas é o jogo?


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## Carfer

As a rule, _'lembrar-se'_, in the sense of _'to remember'_, _'to recall'_, _'to recolllect'_,_ 'to think of'_,  _'to come into someone's head', 'to bear in mind' _requires the preposition (_'Lembro-me de ti')_. However, if it means _'to remind someone to do something' _it frequently doesn't (_'Lembre à Clara o almoço de amanhã', _altough you can also say _'Lembre a Clara *do* almoço de amanhã'. 'Lembro os heróis de antanho', _I remind you about the heroes of yore).


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## XiaoRoel

*Lembras a que hora é o jogo?*, mas* lembras-te de a que hora é o jogo?* 
A forma pronominal está intransitivizada, é por isso que não leva um complemento directo, senão um complemento de regímen (que é logicamente um CD, mas tem a forma dum sintagma preposicional). Este CR introduzido por *de* continua no galego e no português o _genitivo original do latim_, língua na que os _verbos de recordo_, deponentes (é dizer, intransitivizados), levavam um complemento de regímen em genitivo (que era o "caso", é dizer, a forma que tomavam os complementos de nome que nós construímos com *de*, _de casa, de pau, de ouro_).


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## anoronha

Muito obrigado pelas respostas. Having troubled me a lot it has now become much clearer. I shall keep a sharp look out for these verbs as i read my daily dose of Portuguese...!


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## Jabir

Don't forget that the same verbs ("Precisar", for example) can have different usages.

- Eu preciso de ajuda.
- Eu preciso comer.

The verb "precisar" does not usually comes followed by a preposition if the next word is a verb in the infinitive.

Always keep your eyes wide open for exceptions in the rule


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## Istriano

In Brazilian Portuguese it's perfectly fine to omit the clitic:  eu não lembro dela 


> Lembro de todos, amo todos


 (Lygia Fagundes Telles)


In the movie Dum Maaro Dum (set in Goa), you can hear Brazilian Portuguese (and not the Continental Portuguese), and there's also a song _Te amo_ (instead of _Amo-te_). 
In the movie Urumi (Vasco da Gama), you can hear Portunhol for Portuguese.


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## Jabir

Just to add that "dela" = de + ela


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## uchi.m

_Lembras-te de que horas é o jogo_ would be the best rendition IMHO


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## anoronha

Istriano said:


> In Brazilian Portuguese it's perfectly fine to omit the clitic:  eu não lembro dela
> (Lygia Fagundes Telles)
> 
> 
> In the movie Dum Maaro Dum (set in Goa), you can hear Brazilian Portuguese (and not the Continental Portuguese), and there's also a song _Te amo_ (instead of _Amo-te_).
> In the movie Urumi (Vasco da Gama), you can hear Portunhol for Portuguese.




I haven't seen the movie but i'v heard the song.. and i always thought the song was in Spanish. It didn't strike me that it could be Brazilian Portuguese! Bollywood dosent care much for details anyways.. 

Anyways I can assure you that continental portuguese is spoken in goa.. the vowel dropping makes understanding it very dificult, esp with the rapid pace at which it is spoken. The basic Portuguese course text-books in Goa also follow the Contiental version.. Pronouns follow the verb etc

Also, Konkani - the native language of Goa, has many Portuguese words incorporated into it, and almost all of them drop the final vowel of the word.
Cansad, Mes, Janel, Praç... and so on.


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## Istriano

In Dravidian languages the vowel is retained, I think they have more loan words than Konkani:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Sri_Lankan_Tamil#Portuguese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Malayalam#Portuguese


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## uchi.m

Istriano said:


> In Dravidian languages the vowel is retained, I think they have more loan words than Konkani:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Sri_Lankan_Tamil#Portuguese
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Malayalam#Portuguese


I have a Sri Lankan friend who once asked me what armariu was in Portuguese, but she spoke Singhalese instead of Tamil


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## anoronha

Istriano said:


> In Dravidian languages the vowel is retained, I think they have more loan words than Konkani:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Sri_Lankan_Tamil#Portuguese
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_words_in_Malayalam#Portuguese




I have no idea about the influence of Portuguese on the dravidian languages. The list of Portuguese loan words in Konkani given on the Wiki page for konkani is woefully inadequate. My dad who studied in Portuguese - he completed his Segunda Grau, uses a lot more Portuguese words.

I had planned to join a Portuguese course conducted by the Instituto Camoes, but time constraints prevented me from joining.


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## anoronha

uchi.m said:


> I have a Sri Lankan friend who once asked me what armariu was in Portuguese, but she spoke Singhalese instead of Tamil



Despite the fact that Goa was under the Portuguese for almost 450 years, Portuguese died a quick death after 1961. English replaced it at all levels, and the people of goa helped it die a faster death. The knowledge of Portuguese among the youth now is next to zero.


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## Istriano

French is still alive in Puducherry (where it is still one of the official languages), and people learn French in schools in Pondy. Even street signs are in French.

As for Goa,
Even Konkani is being pushed away by English, maybe because of the imposition of the Dev'nag'ri script. But because of this preference of English, Goans do well on TOEFL test: 
http://www.abusms.com/goa/books/konkanis.htm

http://tinilink.com/h73mmBa   

(page 102 is interesting)


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## anoronha

Google books did not show me page 105!! But I've read that article about Goans doing well in IELTS. But theres a movement going on in Goa by some groups demanding that English be replaced by Konkani in schools. While some are even demaning Marathi as the main teaching language. 
Wonder where that's going to take us?!


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## anoronha

And speaking of Languages, Goa's newest state language is Russian!
the huge influx of Ruassian immigrants and tourists, esp in North Goa has given Russian a wide presence. Shop names, restaurant menu cards, Ad billboards... are written in English and Russian, sometimes with the latter taking precedence.


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## FloMar

Acho meio difícil seguir tudo que está escrito emcima, assim vou salientar as perguntas que permanecem para mim em relação ao verbo lembrar. Quero saber se as regras podem ser simplicadas assim: lembrar + artigo p.e. não lembro o nome dele,  e se lembrar + de + artigo p.e. não me lembro do nome dele com significação igaul. Também não entendo a diferença entre lembrar e fazer lembrar: Fazer lembrar = remind, mas como traduzir X me lembra o Y ou é igual à tradução anterior em inglês?


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## Carfer

Não estou certo de ter entendido bem a última parte da sua pergunta. '_Fazer lembrar_' significa frequentemente '_to evoke_' e usamo-lo muitas vezes para falar de semelhanças: '_Fulano faz-me lembrar sicrano_' quer dizer que sicrano tem semelhanças, físicas ou de maneira de ser ou de se comportar, com fulano. Também podemos dizer que uma determinada situação '_faz-me lembrar'_ outra por terem aspectos comuns que trazem esta outra à memória. Mas 'fazer lembrar' também pode ser uma forma enfática, algo autoritária, de lembrar um facto a alguém que não o quer considerar: _'Faço-te lembrar que se não fizeres isto não conseguirás aquilo'._ É óbvio que há diferenças entre as variantes, mas no português europeu, na maioria dos casos, é '_lembrar*-se de* alguma coisa_' (no sentido de '_to remember something'_). '_Lembrar alguém'_, como em '_lembro-te que a Ana faz anos amanhã_' significa '_to remind someone of something_', mas, mesmo nesse caso, pode usar-se a preposição: '_lembro-te de que a Ana faz anos amanhã_'


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## pfaa09

Consultando a regência do verbo lembrar, lá está a preposição "de".

Regência do verbo lembrar

Nota: FloMar, aproveite e leia sobre o verbo lembrar como verbo pronominal.
Uma boa parte deste verbo é acompanhada por pronomes.


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