# elbow pasta - рожки



## Encolpius

Hello, is elbow macaroni also popular in Russia and what do you call it? Thanks a lot.


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## elemika

Hi,
maybe, рожк*и* (here) (with *и* accented)


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## Awwal12

Yes, рожки /rozhk*i*/ [rɐʐkʲ'i] (pl.) are popular enough - at least you can find them in each food store among other macaroni foods.


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## Encolpius

Thank you, very interesting. The origin could be German, they call it also Hörnchen.


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## Awwal12

> The origin could be German, they call it also Hörnchen.


Well, everything is possible, but I believe, there were no need to loan this word - it just seems to suggest itself.


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## Maroseika

Isn't it р*о*жки? I've never heard рожк*и*.
After all it resembles small horns and not a trumpet or a shoehorn.
Gramota.ru gives рожк*и* http://gramota.ru/spravka/buro/29_377423 but I'm not sure they are right.


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## elemika

Sorry, I was wrong...
Р*о*жки


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## Awwal12

> Isn't it рожки? I've never heard рожки.


And I always heard "рожк*и*".  Looks like it is the same case as with "св*ё*кла" vs "свекл*а*" and "тв*о*рог" vs "твор*о*г"... Even if there is a rule, there is no stable pronunciation in colloquial speech... or even the majority pronounces a word "incorrectly".


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## elemika

I don't know...
 I always say "рожк*и*" and the shop-assistants correct me: "р*о*жки ?"


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## Natalisha

It's so interesting! I've never heard "рожк*и*". I always say "р*о*жки".


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## Maroseika

However according to Ozhegov it is рожок in singular. But рожок should be smth. expanding. So I'm now completely confused...


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## Awwal12

The vocabulary of Russian Verbal Stress (at dic.academic.ru) gives "рожк*И*" (about the macaroni food).


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## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> Isn't it р*о*жки? I've never heard рожк*и*.
> After all it resembles small horns and not a trumpet or a shoehorn.
> Gramota.ru gives рожк*и* http://gramota.ru/spravka/buro/29_377423 but I'm not sure they are right.



It's definitely рожк*и*. I've never ever heard it otherwise.



> *Рожки* -ов - Макаронное изделие
> *Рожки*, рожек, рожкам, ед. не употр. Уменьш. к мн. рога
> 
> _И. Л. Резниченко
> Орфоэпический словарь русского языка. Произношение, ударение._



PS Если кому нужна ссылка на загрузку орфоэпического словаря, пишите ЛС.


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## Q-cumber

Awwal12 said:


> Looks like it is the same case as with "св*ё*кла" vs "свекл*а*" and "тв*о*рог" vs "твор*о*г"... Even if there is a rule, there is no stable pronunciation in colloquial speech... or even the majority pronounces a word "incorrectly".



 Тв*о*рог и твор*о*г are both OK. Свекл*а* isn't correct.


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## Awwal12

> Творог и творог are both OK. Свекла isn't correct.


I know. The only problem is that the pronunciation "свекл*а*"  is extremely widespread in colloquial speech and, probably, even more often than the correct one.


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## Andrey05

Q-cumber said:


> It's definitely рожк*и*. I've never ever heard it otherwise.


 
Quite interesting! Have a look at the forum: http://community.livejournal.com/pishu_pravilno/3929796.html
it's almost 50-50 

PS: I'm with Maroseika. Myself and everybody around have always used р*о*жки.



Awwal12 said:


> Looks like it is the same case as with "св*ё*кла" vs "свекл*а*" and "тв*о*рог" vs "твор*о*г"... Even if there is a rule, there is no stable pronunciation in colloquial speech... or even the majority pronounces a word "incorrectly".


 
Perhaps  At least I'm sure if you ask a shop assistant in Ekaterinburg if they sell рожк*и* s/he won't know what you mean 

The strange thing is, I've heard both "тв*о*рог" and "твор*о*г" off a lot, as well as "св*ё*кла" and "свекл*а*" ("свекл*а*" a lot less often than "св*ё*кла" though), but never рожк*и *


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## cyanista

I thought it might be interesting to add a poll to this thread (see above).  

It goes without saying that the results can't be viewed as a recommendation of any sorts because they will only show preferences of our users.


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## Andrey05

cyanista said:


> I thought it might be interesting to add a poll to this thread (see above).
> 
> It goes without saying that the results can't be viewed as a recommendation of any sorts because they will only show preferences of our users.


 

Good idea! Is there a way of providing an extra option in the poll, so that the participants can specify which region of Russia (or another Russian-speaking country) they are from? I suspect there might be a strong regional influence in this case. Would be interesting to find out!


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## Ptak

When it's about macaroni food, I always called it рожк*и*. I'd never call it р*о*жки because р*о*жки only means "little horns" for me, in the literal sense.


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## cyanista

Andrey05 said:


> Good idea! Is there a way of providing an extra option in the poll, so that the participants can specify which region of Russia (or another Russian-speaking country) they are from? I suspect there might be a strong regional influence in this case. Would be interesting to find out!



I would love to have something of the kind but I'm afraid our limited technical possibilities do not allow that.  The poll being public, you can certainly check the location field of every participant but many of us have moved far away from their birthplace...


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## elemika

Похоже, они все-таки "рожк*и*" (здесь) 
Возможно, что источник тот же, что и в комментарии Awwal.

А знаете, бывают еще "рожки с гребешком" : забавно выходит с ударением на "о"!


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## juliedusoleil

I've almost never heard of «рожк*и*». Friends, family - they all pronounce it with the accent on the first syllable.


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## Q-cumber

Andrey05 said:


> Quite interesting! Have a look at the forum: http://community.livejournal.com/pishu_pravilno/3929796.html
> it's almost 50-50



I like this comment: 


> Обычно "рОжки" говорят те же люди, что и "ложить", такую я заметила закономерность.


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## Andrey05

Q-cumber said:


> I like this comment:
> Обычно "рОжки" говорят те же люди, что и "ложить", такую я заметила закономерность.


 
This statement has been disproved at that forum, and to confirm that again: I don't say "ложить" either 
I tend to agree with another comment, namely: "Закономерность - региональная, а не классово-социальная"


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## Q-cumber

Frankly, I see no ground for discussion here. "Рожк*и*" means "elbow pasta", whilst "р*о*жки" stands for small horns. So is stated in all the reliable dictionaries. People mispronounce words quite often. Everyone does, and I'm not the exception. However, as it was said by Mohandas Gandhi "an error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it."


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## Andrey05

Q-cumber said:


> Frankly, I see no ground for discussion here. "Рожк*и*" means "elbow pasta", whilst "р*о*жки" stands for small horns. So is stated in all the reliable dictionaries. People mispronounce words quite often. Everyone does, and I'm not the exception. However, as it was said by Mohandas Gandhi "an error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it."


 
Well, I'm actually quite curious about the difference, as this word is "mispronounced" not just by a few people (like свекл*а *is), but apparently by the whole cities and regions. Perhaps we've just discovered that this pronunciation is *dialectal *(in which case it should be captured by the dictionaries as such), and thus not erroneous. 

I like the following argument in the forum cited: 
"Если вам кажется, что совокупность мелких предметов в пачке макаронных изделий, напоминает маленькие рога, то называйте их рОжками. А если _каждый отдельный_ мелкий предмет в пачке напоминает вам маленький рог (рожок), то все вместе они будут рожкИ. Выбор за вами."


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## Ptak

Andrey05 said:


> as this word is "mispronounced" not just by a few people (like свекл*а *is), but apparently by the whole cities and regions.


Excuse me, but from what facts is this "apparently"? 

And would you please specify the cities and regions?


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## Maroseika

I cannot notice any regional regularity in the distribution of the two stresses. Maybe sampling is too small.
But there is no evidence of the real origin of this pasta species: whether it was derivated from the animal horns, musical horns,  ice-creme cones or anything else. Consequently, "etymologically correct" stress remains unknown.


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## Andrey05

Ptak said:


> Excuse me, but from what facts is this "apparently"?
> 
> And would you please specify the cities and regions?


 
Well, from my experience I can say that about Ekaterinburg. And according to other forums it might be reflected in other big (and not so big) cities and regions (Irkutsk, Tjumen', most of Siberia, partly St Petersburg).

There was another poll of 30 participants on this question, The result is 33 / 50: http://pushistyj-koshk.livejournal.com/174153.html

That's why I'm curious to discuss if that's a dialect...

But you're right, Maroseika, that the sample is too small. Let alone that you haven't voted yet


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## Maroseika

Why, I did. That's actually what caused all that fuss here.


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## Q-cumber

Actually "рожки", like many other food-related terms, is sort of a "family word" that passes from generation to generation. So if your  great grandmother used to say "р*о*жки",  you'd most likely keep this tradition. 
   For example, my grandma used to call a kitchen strainer "друшл*а*г"  and I apt to call it this way, even though I know that the correct spelling is "дуршл*а*г". I've hardly ever heard or used this word outside the family, so I tend to use the family pattern...


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## juliedusoleil

Well, I can definitely tell you that in my native region of the Far East (Sakhalin island, Khabarovsk, Kamchatka) people say «р*о*жки»


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## Q-cumber

juliedusoleil said:


> Well, I can definitely tell you that in my native region of the Far East (Sakhalin island, Khabarovsk, Kamchatka) people say «р*о*жки»



My close relatives lived in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky until recently and none of them says "р*о*жки"...


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## Andrey05

Maroseika said:


> Why, I did. That's actually what caused all that fuss here.


 
I mean, to vote in the poll on top of this thread. See those red and blue bars?


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## juliedusoleil

Q-cumber said:


> My close relatives lived in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky until recently and none of them says "р*о*жки"...



Really?)) I`ve got some friends from there and they say «r*o*zhki­» (I´ve asked their opinion to vote for this way of pronounciation). Anyway, I don´t think it´s quite important in the language.


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## Ptak

juliedusoleil said:


> Well, I can definitely tell you that in my native region of the Far East (Sakhalin island, Khabarovsk, Kamchatka) people say «р*о*жки»


Excuse me, but I don't think you personally can definitely say anything for the whole, and in addition, so huge region.


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## juliedusoleil

Ptak said:


> Excuse me, but I don't think you personally can definitely say anything for the whole, and in addition, so huge region.



OK, I can _definitely _say that all people I´ve asked stress the first syllable.


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## Andrey05

Ptak said:


> Excuse me, but I don't think you personally can definitely say anything for the whole, and in addition, so huge region.


 
Sorry Ptak, but I think we should trust the locals on that. Don't take it too literally. Clearly, what juliedusoleil was saying is: most (if not all) of the people she knows in the region pronounce it that way. This is hardly attributable to chance, family feature or a particular social group. I have the same experience with Ekaterinburg. 

<off-topic part removed>


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## Maroseika

Andrey05 said:


> I mean, to vote in the poll on top of this thread. See those red and blue bars?


Now yes, thanks.


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## dnldnl

РОжки! I don't care what those bars say at the top. That's what my mother always called them.


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## Sobakus

Рожки here :-D That's a funny thread, never thought there were any variations in this particular word.. Рожки would always mean "little horns" to me. Like, it's рожок(вафельный там), ergo рожки.. Though I know there isn't any "ergo" when you're talking about the Russian stress =D


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## Angelo di fuoco

For me, it's "рОжки да нОжки", but "вафельные рожкИ". I'm from Moscow.


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## Ptak

Angelo di fuoco said:


> For me, it's "рОжки да нОжки", but "вафельные рожкИ". I'm from Moscow.


Vote please.  The pool is in the top of the page.


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