# shukriyah



## urdustan

Hello,

How did the Arabic shukran evolve into shukriyah in Urdu?  I don't think either word is used in Persian.


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## ancalimon

urdustan said:


> Hello,
> 
> How did the Arabic shukran evolve into shukriyah in Urdu?  I don't think either word is used in Persian.



It's Şükriye in Turkish too. But we also have the name Şükran. Both are old fashioned female given names.


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## guilaK

Hi,

I'd to inform you that,the word;*motashakkeram *Or *tashakkor *is used in persian,instead.


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## ancalimon

guilaK said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'd to inform you that,the word;*motashakkeram *Or *tashakkor *is used in persian,instead.



That's weird. A non-Turkish word being used in a Turkish form in Persian.  müteşekkürü*m*.  M : I am


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## Treaty

ancalimon said:


> That's weird. A non-Turkish word being used in a Turkish form in Persian. müteşekkürü*m*. M : I am


It is not a Turkish form. The final _am_ is genuinely Persian, as a first person singular form of verb declension suffix and "to be".


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## Ben Jamin

guilaK said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'd to inform you that,the word;*motashakkeram *Or *tashakkor *is used in persian,instead.



Do they come from Arabic?


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## asanga

Ben Jamin said:


> Do they come from Arabic?



_motashakker-am_ looks like the active participle of the Arabic form V verb (تَفَعَّلَ) with the Persian 1st person singular of the verb "to be": "I am thankful"; _tashakkor _is the masdar (verbal noun) of the same verb form. Form V of a verb is usually reflexive and intransitive, so while form I of the verb _shakara _means "to thank", form V _tashakkara _means "to be thankful".

Back to _shukriyah_, it looks a lot like a feminine nisba _shukriyyah _of the form I masdar شُكْرٌ . Maybe this was used in accordance with the rule that non-human plurals get feminine singular adjectives? I.e. _shukriyyah _is short for "[words, tokens, expressions etc.] of thanks". I believe izafe constructions with a plural first member and singular feminine adj. are quite common in Persian: e.g. قرون ماضیه , گناهان کبیرہ. Maybe _shukriyah _was originally part of an Indo-Persian phrase of this type? Is it ever pronounced with tashdeed?

In Indonesian, we use the masdar شُكْرٌ (pronounced with an extra vowel because Indonesian doesn't allow consonant clusters like -kr-) with a native prefix: _bersyukur. _This can be interpreted as a reflexive verb "to be thankful" or an adjective "having thanks".


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## fdb

_š__ukran_ is the accusative of _š__ukr_ “thanks”; _mut__aš__akkir_ is a participle “thanking”; _š__ukriyya_ is the feminine singular of the adjective _š__ukr__ī_ “thankful”, but it can be used also as an abstract noun “thankfulness”. All these words are Arabic, but only the first is used to mean “thank you” in Arabic.


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## Qureshpor

^ Your post should answer the inquiry posed by OP. I often wondered about shukriyah. Your reply makes it crystal clear. Thank you.


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## asanga

I thought that the تاء مربوطة of a feminine nisba used as an abstract noun becomes -t in Udru, e.g. علمیت، انسانیت etc. So shouldn't we expect شکریت if it means "thankfulness"?

Slightly off-topic: in Hindi this abstract noun suffix is pronounced and spelled with a single y, इंसानियत, and I've heard this in Urdu as well (the spelling is of course ambiguous without diacritics). Is this the standard pronunciation in Urdu, or do high registers double the y, -iyyat?


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## Qureshpor

asanga said:


> I thought that the تاء مربوطة of a feminine nisba used as an abstract noun becomes -t in Udru, e.g. علمیت، انسانیت etc. So shouldn't we expect شکریت if it means "thankfulness"?
> 
> Slightly off-topic: in Hindi this abstract noun suffix is pronounced and spelled with a single y, इंसानियत, and I've heard this in Urdu as well (the spelling is of course ambiguous without diacritics). Is this the standard pronunciation in Urdu, or do high registers double the y, -iyyat?


First point: Some if not most nouns are with -t, as in muHabbat/maHabbat but there are instances of the noun remaining with -ah ending, e.g iraadat/iraadah

Second point: Yes, careful speakers do double the -y.


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## marrish

asanga said:


> _[...] _Back to _shukriyah_, it looks a lot like a feminine nisba _shukriyyah _of the form I masdar شُكْرٌ . Maybe this was used in accordance with the rule that non-human plurals get feminine singular adjectives? I.e. _shukriyyah _is short for "[words, tokens, expressions etc.] of thanks". I believe izafe constructions with a plural first member and singular feminine adj. are quite common in Persian: e.g. قرون ماضیه , گناهان کبیرہ. Maybe _shukriyah _was originally part of an Indo-Persian phrase of this type? [...]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fdb said:
> 
> 
> 
> _š__ukran_ is the accusative of _š__ukr_ “thanks”; _mut__aš__akkir_ is a participle “thanking”; _š__ukriyya_ is the feminine singular of the adjective _š__ukr__ī_ “thankful”, but it can be used also as an abstract noun “thankfulness”. All these words are Arabic, but only the first is used to mean “thank you” in Arabic.
Click to expand...

Great explanations and suggestions with which I can wholeheartedly agree. There is a phrase _آدابِ شکریّہ aadaab-e-shukriyyah _which I believe gave origin to the stand-alone word _shukriyyah._


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## puddgyballerina

motashaker in Persian is derived from shakoor, Shakur, shukran, shakriyyah, shukriyyah


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## urdustan

Is _shukriyyah _"thankfulness" used at all in Persian? For example, is the Urdu phrase _aadaab-e-shukriyyah_ also used in Persian? If not, then this is an example of a word that was adopted directly from Arabic to Urdu without Persian as an intermediary.

Thanks.


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## urdustan

I now see that _shukriyya/shukriya_ is not listed in Steingass' comprehensive Indo-Persian dictionary, which points to an Urdu borrowing of the word directly from Arabic.


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## CyrusSH

I think the suffix _-ya_ has been added in Urdu/Hindi and doesn't relate to neither Arabic, nor Persian. The word _shukr_ is used for "thanks" in Persian too, especially when it is used with the word _sepas_. (شکر و سپاس)


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## berndf

It is a completely regular Arabic derivation pattern for abstract nouns. Even with only minimal knowledge of Arabic (like me) one would intuitively understand its meaning without a moment's hesitation. See #8.


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## CyrusSH

It doesn't matter Arabic شكرية‏ has a similar meaning or not (that I think not), the important point is that it has double "y" and the last letter is "t", for example about Arabic أهمية (importance) in Persian/Urdu there is "ahammiyyat", not "ahammiya".


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