# Double causative constructions in Japanese?



## Nino83

Hello everyone.

I read in this paper that Japanese allows double causative constructions (i.e with sasesaseru). 

Taroo ga   Ziroo ni   Itiroo o       aruk-ase-sase-ta
Taro NOM  Jiro DAT  Ichiro ACC   walk-CS-CS-PST
‘Taro made/had Jiro make Ichiro walk.’ 

Yooko ga   Taroo ni   Hanako ni    isya ni/o            ko-sase-sase-sase-ta
Yoko NOM  Taro DAT Hanako DAT doctor DAT/ACC  come-CS-CS-CS-PST
‘Yoko made (let) Taro make (let) Hanako make/let the doctor come.’

Or, for example, JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋 を掃除させさせる. 

It is said that "The native speaker who assisted me with the Japanese data felt that (27) was fully grammatical. However, she hastened to point out that it was very awkward and would not likely be seen or heard in day-to-day written or spoken discourse. This bears out Shibatani’s claim. She added, too, that the sentence would have been more acceptable if Hanako were sentence-initial." 

Do you find these sentences strange, ungrammatical, odd? Do they are rare or common?

Thank you


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## karlalou

What is 'sentence-initial'?
I agree with what they are saying.

I've been thinking about your sentence while I'm doing other things.. It's so hard to make a sense out of it..
I think if it was JohnはMikeにPaul*を*掃除させさせた like other sentences, it was easier to understand.

Double causative is possible but it's too confusing to construct or understand, and there's better way to say the same thing, so we don't seldom use that.

After all, I think "JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋を掃除させさせる" is valid grammatical sentence.


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## jamesh625

karlalou said:


> Double causative is possible but it's too confusing to construct or understand, and there's better way to say the same thing, so we don't seldom use that.


ならば、どのように言うんでしょうか？


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## karlalou

(Responding to OP's request, now I'm adding the translation for each sentence.)

例えば、

部長は*みなに～させるよう課長に言った*。 
The chief told the section manager to make everyone do ~.

母が妹に言って帰りに玉子を買ってこ*させて*と*私に頼んだ*。
Mother *asked me* to tell my sis and make her get some eggs on the way home.

母が*私に、*妹に言って帰りにたまごを買ってこさせてと*頼んだ*。
Mother asked me to tell my sis and make her get some eggs on the way home.

先生が私に*みんなに*手伝うよう*言う*よう言った。
Teacher told me to tell everyone to help out.

Ａさんが*私に*あなたにさせるように*させた*のです。
A made me make you do.


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## karlalou

I think I got what is sentence-initial. A sentence starts with the sentence-initial, right?


Nino83 said:


> She added, too, that the sentence would have been more acceptable if Hanako were sentence-initial.


So, "Yooko ga Taroo ni Hanako ni isya ni/o ko-sase-sase-sase-ta" becomes
花子に医者に来させさせてと洋子が太郎に言った and now it's so much clearer and easier to understand.



> JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋 を掃除させさせる


This would be ポールに部屋を掃除させるようジョンはマイクに言った。



karlalou said:


> Ａさんが私にあなたにさせるようにさせたのです。


あなたにさせるようＡさんが私をさせたのです。 I like this one better.

先生が私にみんなに手伝うよう言うよう言った。>> みんなに手伝うよう言うよう先生が私に言った。


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## Nino83

karlalou said:


> I think if it was JohnはMikeにPaul*を*掃除させさせた like other sentences, it was easier to understand.
> After all, I think "JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋を掃除させさせる" is valid grammatical sentence.


Thank you, karlalou. So it is easier to understand double causative with intransitive verbs or with transitive verbs used intransitively.


karlalou said:


> 例えば


I'm sorry, but without translation I can't understand anything.  
I know that the form "to ask/tell somebody to do something" is "するようにいます". Have you used a similar structure, "するよう言う", without "に"?
John told Mike to make Paul clean the room (lit. John told Mike so that Paul cleaned the room), JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋 を掃除させるようにいました?
Would you translate the sentences you wronte in #4?


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> sasesaseru.


No, we don't say so. Aren't you confusing with _saserareru_?

_ジョンはマイクに、ポールに部屋を掃除させさせた。？_
It's hard to say that we say so. If you say させさせた, させた would be fully okay.

ジョンはポールに部屋を掃除させた: John had Paul clean the room. But what is Mike supposed to do between them? Is he a message sender? I don't understand.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> ジョンはポールに部屋を掃除させた: John had Paul clean the room. But what is Mike supposed to do between them? Is he a message sender? I don't understand.


Yes, it is an "intermediary". It's like saying "John ordered/asked/wanted/told Mike to make Paul clean the room".
And what do you think about the first two sentences, those from the paper I linked in #1?


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## frequency

Ah, a message sender.
_ジョンはマイクに、ポールに部屋を掃除させるように言った（命じた）。_
This would be okay. Mike will have to tell Paul so. 
_ジョンはマイクに、ポールは部屋を掃除するように言った（命じた）。_is okay, too. Notice that I'm using _Paul cleans the room._

_Taroo ga Ziroo ni Itiroo o aruk-ase-sase-ta_
タロウはジロウに、イチローを歩かせるように言った。Oh this works.　Jiro is going to tell Ichiro that Jiro lets Ichiro walk.
This is タロウはジロウに、（ジローは）イチローを歩かせるように言った。

_Yooko ga Taroo ni Hanako ni isya ni/o ko-sase-sase-sase-ta_
No, this doesn't work well. You'll have to make another approach.

ヨウコはタロウに、ハナコのところへ医者を来させるように言った。
Yoko asked Taro that Taro has the doctor visit Hanako. Taro will have to tell the doctor to visit Hanako. Using ところへ just makes the whole more understandable.


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## Nino83

Thank you, frequency.
So you agree with karlalou. With an intransitive verb (or with a transitive verb used intransitively) the double causative (sasesase) is understandable (although uncommon), while with transitive verbs it doesn't work.
Probably because there are more people marked with the same particle, に?


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## frequency

No, it's not the double causative. Because Mike, Jiro, and Taro are message senders.

Indirect object of the verb _ask_ + have sb do sth.

In タロウはジロウに、（ジローは）イチローを歩かせるように言った。

タロウはジロウに言った.
_Taro asked Jiro_. Jiro is the indirect object of the verb ask.
Plus
（ジローは）イチローを歩かせるように
Jiro has Taro walk.

_Taro asked Jiro_ (indirect object) _a question_ (direct object).

And I think the writer of the paper is confusing.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> And I think the writer of the paper is confusing.


Ah, ok, I thought you found _Taroo ga Ziroo ni Itiroo o aruk-ase-sase-ta_ understandable, but now I see you don't.  
So you find "sasesase" strange, confusing and uncommon in every single context.


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> So you find "sasesase" strange, confusing and uncommon in every single context.


Yes, we don't say so. Probably the writer is mixing or confusing it with saserareru, resulting in a weird interpretation.


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## Nino83

Thanks.
That paper was exploring one of the features that some languages, called "agglutinative" (Turkish, Finnish, Hungarian, Japanese), share, like the possibility to form double causative constructions, in theory. It's interesting to know what native speakers think about it.
(The same thing happened with Hungarians. Most people don't use it and find it strange, odd, rare, uncommon. So it seems there is a difference between the theorical possibility and the effective usage.)


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## karlalou

Nino83 said:


> I know that the form "to ask/tell somebody to do something" is "するようにいます". Have you used a similar structure, "するよう言う", without "に"?


"to ask/tell somebody to do something" is "するようにいいます". There must be two い.
いいます=言います. It's just 言う reads いう, and it conjugates to 言います.
するように言う is the fully spelled out version, and it's just as same as するよう言う.



> John told Mike to make Paul clean the room (lit. John told Mike so that Paul cleaned the room), JohnはMikeにPaulに部屋 を掃除させるようにいました?


So this one, too, have to have two い, and it should be ～～～掃除させるよう（に）言いました, and it reads いいました.



> Would you translate the sentences you wronte in #4?


I've added the translations on #4. 



Nino83 said:


> So it seems there is a difference between the theorical possibility and the effective usage.)


Yeah, I think Japanese is a language that works fur from like a math formula, and it values much more how smooth the flow is.


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## Nino83

Thank you, karlalou. 
It's interesting the word order. The first "causee" is often placed after the subject or after "you ni".


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