# Handwriting - differentiating <ə> and <s> in cursive



## iezik

When I try to write IPA pronunciation as a single word, both /ə/ and /s/ are very similar. Do you have any experience with distinguishing them? I emailed once to Azerbaijan where both letters are used in Azeri, but I didn't understand much from the reply.
Thanks


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## Rallino

I don't see much of a similarity. Was it perhaps related to the font used in that reply? Can you show a screenshot?


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## Stoggler

When writing IPA, I just wrote the letters as they are printed I’m text.  As a single word, do you mean in joined-up writing/cursive (i.e. with no gaps between the letters)?


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## bearded

Stoggler said:


> , I just wrote the letters as they are printed I’m text


What does '' I'm text '' mean? Please explain.


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## Rallino

It looks like an auto-correct for "in text".


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## Stoggler

It was indeed autocorrect!  Sorry, I usually reread any posts to ensure everything is spelled correctly.  It should be “in a text”.


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## iezik

Ok, here is an example of handwriting -rəs (e.g. the last sounds in English word "chorus").




Both "ə" and "s" are very similar, so this could be as well -rss, -rəə or -rsə.

So, is there a convenstion or form that distinguishes these two letters better?


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## Stoggler

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t write the individual letters/phonemes out as they are normally printed if you want to be clear, rather than join them up with the neighbouring letter.  If you want to be clear, don’t write in a way that isn’t clear!


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## iezik

Stoggler said:


> I don’t understand why you wouldn’t write


I'm interested in usages of the letters like /əɛɔ/ in regular text. These are not letters of any official language of the rich world, but they're already used for some languages.

/ə/ is used in Azeri.
/ɛɔ/ are used in Lingala.



Stoggler said:


> If you want to be clear


... I imagine I need to learn something that some people already know.


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## Määränpää

When you write about pronunciation using IPA, you _must_ use the "print" forms of the characters even when you're writing by hand. That's just how it is. There's no "cursive IPA".





iezik said:


> /   ə /  is used in Azeri. [in this case, it's an Azeri letter, not an IPA symbol]


This may interest you: New-Alphabet Disease?


> Following through on the alphabet decision is a hugely expensive and complicated proposition. [...] "It's given them _terrible_ handwriting." Different generations now read and write in different alphabets, [...]


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## iezik

Thanks Määränpää for helping formulate the question the correct way. But ... does it also mean that you don't know the answer? So, another attempt to ask: How are the following Azeri words written by hand in cursive or script (with connected lines): əsas, türkcəsi, içsə, dərsi, təhsil?


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## Määränpää

I have no idea. But I'm guessing there must have been some kind of official cursive version of the Azeri letter ə in the cursive Cyrillic alphabet back in the Soviet days... (In the Cyrillic alphabet, the problem of telling ə and s apart wouldn't exist because the /s/ sound is written with c.)


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## Määränpää

New Nation, New Alphabet: Azerbaijani Children’s Books in the 1990’s

Looks like these are the cursive forms of ə and s in the Latin version of the Azeri alphabet. (Unfortunately it doesn't show how they connect to other letters in the middle of a word)


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## iezik

This table is fine, wow. It seems that they divided different variants of "western s" between "Azeri ə" and "Azeri s". From my previous example for -rəs, both characters "əs" have pointed top. In Azeri, it seems that

s: the letter has a top part that is more pointed or even with an additional loop
ə: the top is not pointed, but a rounded one

So, the following is my attempt for əsas.


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## Rallino

I asked an Azeri friend of mine to write certain words in cursive. The words are fikirləşmək, düşünmək, söyləmək, demək.


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## iezik

Rallino, thanks for example. I think I understand now the Azeri way of writing "sə".


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## Red Arrow

These letters look like they come from World War I to me  This is how we learn to write "s" and the other letters of the alphabet in Belgium.





I find it rather absurd that s and ə are so alike in Azeri handwriting.


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