# Portuguese cadê and Russian где(gdye)



## terredepomme

The two words seem to be very similar in sound and meaning.
Cadê tu? = Where are you?
Где ты(Gdye tï)? = Where are you?

Now the Portuguese wiktionary says (without citing any sources) that cadê is a


> Forma abreviada de "que é (feito) de?"


And according to Terence Wade in Russian Etymological Dictionary, где is related to Common Slavic root *-de as in здесь(zdes', here).
So apparently, if we believe the Portuguese Wiktionary, they are unrelated.
So is this just a surprising coincidence?


----------



## Ben Jamin

terredepomme said:


> The two words seem to be very similar in sound and meaning.
> Cadê tu? = Where are you?
> Где ты(Gdye tï)? = Where are you?
> 
> Now the Portuguese wiktionary says (without citing any sources) that cadê is a
> 
> And according to Terence Wade in Russian Etymological Dictionary, где is related to Common Slavic root *-de as in здесь(zdes', here).
> So apparently, if we believe the Portuguese Wiktionary, they are unrelated.
> So is this just a surprising coincidence?



There are many such coincidences of apparent cognates which are not related, for example: Spanish ‘mucho’ and English “much’, German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.


----------



## LilianaB

I think there is a very silimar word in Bulgarian: _kade_, meaning where to, probably in some other South Slavic languages as well. The Russian _gdye_ is related to the Polish _gdzie_. You could check what they claim as the etymology of _gdzie_ or the Bulgarian _kade_.


----------



## terredepomme

> for example: Spanish ‘mucho’ and English “much’, German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.


To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.


----------



## Ben Jamin

terredepomme said:


> To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.



'Much' i derived from M.E. muchel, from O.E. micel "great in amount or extent," from P.Gmc. *mekilaz, from PIE *meg- "great (cognate with Latin 'magnus') while 'mucho' is derived from Latin 'multus' . These words are therefore not cognates. Relation between PIE stems 'mel' and 'meg' is just a hypothese.


----------



## Ben Jamin

terredepomme said:


> To my knowledge those pairs come from similar PIE roots, for example mucho from *mel- and "much" from *meg-. So they *might* be related or be close to each other in some way I think.



These are different PIE stems, and as such the words should be regarded as not cognates. According to literature much i derived from from M.E. muchel, from O.E. micel "great in amount or extent," from P.Gmc. *mekilaz, from PIE *meg- "great."Spanish 'mucho' i derived from Latin 'multum'.


----------



## Christo Tamarin

LilianaB said:


> I think there is a very silimar word in Bulgarian: _kade_, meaning where to, probably in some other South Slavic languages as well. The Russian _gdye_ is related to the Polish _gdzie_. You could check what they claim as the etymology of _gdzie_ or the Bulgarian _kade_.


Old Slavic *къдѣ* => Bulgarian {*къдe* (before 1945: къдѣ), abbreviated где, де} Russian где (before 1945: гдѣ), Polish _gdzie.
_When Ъ is omitted, then K changes to G before the voiced consonant D. In Russian and Polish, Ъ is always omitted. 
According to Fassmer, Sobolebski supposed the final ѣ to be influenced by the locative case ending.


----------



## Dhira Simha

I quite agree with  Max Vasmer that this word is directly linked with the Vedic kū  and kuha "where". This is how this word appears in _Russian-Sanskrit Dictionary of Common and Cognate Words_



*2123*
*где
*hde*kū*
*कू*
gdewhere?where?With the addition of the suff -da which  is used to form a number of question words and demonstrative pronouns  (cp. когда  kogda  = Skr. kada कद 'when'; тогда togda Skr. tada तद  'then', куда kuda = Avestan kudā 'where' etc.) in Locative. Voicing of  /k/ before a voiced stop is common. UA де; O.RU къде; BG де, къде́; SRB  кди, SLO gdė̑, kjè; CZ kde; PL gdzie, O.LS (h)dźe, L.LS źe, źo. VAS  1


As for  Portuguese, I would tentatively presume that it is also linked to the old kū but it needs further research.


----------



## Outsider

For the origin of the Portuguese word, see the first post.


----------



## Dhira Simha

Outsider said:


> For the origin of the Portuguese word, see the first post.



I am not qualified to discuss Portuguese, I did read the first post but it is in my nature not to take anything  I read in an etymological dictionaries for granted. I do not say that it is not correct, I just  do not know the full story behind it. I have my own opinion about Russian _gde_. If the Portuguese dictionary you quoted is correct then we have a rare case of a  phonetic and semantic coincidence of otherwise not related words. In any case, is an interesting fact. Thank you for highlighting it!


----------



## Audie

As to '_cadê_' (Portuguese), sometimes it's possible to hear some (mainly older) people say '_quêde_' instead of '_cadê_', in Brazil (or at least in the Northeast).


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Ben Jamin said:


> There are many such coincidences of apparent cognates which are not related, for example: [...] German ‘haben’ and Latin ‘habeo’.


Please elaborate that point!


----------



## Ben Jamin

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Please elaborate that point!



I just mean that unrelated words may take a very similar form, and mislead people to think that they have the same origin, especially if they have the same meaning.


----------



## Sanduleak

It reminds me of slovak *kde *(where).
*Kde *si? = Where are you?
*Cadê* tu? = Where are you?

I think the pronunciation is also very similar.


----------



## Forero

If _cadê_ and _quêde_ do derive from "que é (feito) de", then it makes sense that the _qu-_ here is the _qu-_ of Latin interrogatives, a cognate of the _wh-_ of English interrogatives, may be related to the _k-_/_ch-_/_-g_ of Russian interrogatives and hence to the _g-_ of где.


----------



## tresblase

"Cadê" comes from "Que é de".


----------



## Dhira Simha

I wonder, what is the origin of  the preposition _de_ in Romance languages?  The final _-e_ does suggest an old Locative case in _-e_. In Russian there is _куда ku-da _"where to?" and _г-де g-de_ "where?" in which _g_  is a voiced and reduced form of _ku_  and _-de_ is believed to be a locative of  _-da_.


----------

