# how do non-phonetic language speakers pronunciate the newly constructed/founded/invented words?



## rarabara

hi, 
as it stated , can someone explain this occasion?
thanks


----------



## Yendred

What do you call a non-phonetic language?


----------



## rarabara

well, we suggested a thread here: "phonetic" languages
both from the instructions given  there and the instructions I found via googling,I understand that ;

phonetic language is that although its some alphabetical characters (i.e. letters) being written samely on some words , are being pronunciated differently.

example: cherry , cycle (c is being pronunciated at the first word as ["ch"] , but as ["s"] at second one (also, consider c two times repeated in second word), so english is not a phonetic language .


----------



## rarabara

Yendred said:


> What do you call a non-phonetic language?


non - phonetic language is normally a language which does not conform with the definition provided above or not in the conformity with the relevant property (above)


----------



## Cork Irish

Well, speakers of languages like English pronounce words they don't know with an eye on other similar words, probably. E.g. *cycle* - there are no words with cy- pronounced with /k/. There are definitely some words where the spelling won't give you the exact pronunciation, so you would take a guess. This is particularly the case with stress. For a long time I wasn't sure how to pronounce redolent. I thought it was *reDOlent*, and not *REdolent*. But many of the pronunciation difficulties that are a problem for L2 learners are not so for native speakers who have been through the school system in English. This is because we have a bank of lexemes in our heads that we can compare a word to.

Actually, English is not 100% phonetic, but there is such a thing as a "reading pronunciation". Some pronunciations have changed over the last century to move more into line with the spelling. I say *offen*, but many people say *often*. I say *tray*, many say *trait*. I say I *ett* an apple; many say they *ate* an apple. Of course, there are many words whose pronunciations have not moved into line with the spelling, including *says* and *said*. So it seems there is a degree of phonetic information in the spelling of words, particularly if you are familiar with the spelling of thousands of other words, and so you should be able to guess, roughly, the pronunciation of a word.

Stress and voicing of consonants can be harder. The following spellings are adjusted eye-dialect: I live in a *house*. Those are *houziz*. We have a *houzing* problem. We need to *houze* people better. It is *eazy*. He is *prezident*. We need to observe *precedent*. Things like this are hard for L2 speakers. As are stress shifts like *refUze* and *rEfuse*, *frEquent* and *frequEnt*.


----------



## Messquito

Emoji vs emoticons
Emoji comes from Japanese 絵文字 meaning "illustrated text".
Emoticon comes from English emotion+icon.


----------



## Welsh_Sion

My language, Cymraeg/Welsh is more phonemic (I think that's the word we need here, not phonetic) than say, English. Consequently, I have been known to pronounce (unthinkingly) the name of the largecar sales company, 'Cargiant' as something like 'kar.GHEE.ant' (following Wwlsh pronunciation), whereas of course a native speaker of English would identify the name as, 'ka:.dzeye.ent' (i.e. 'car' + 'giant').

I'm being lazy by not putting in IPA symbols tonight - but if you can't work out my 'imitated pronunciation', I'll try typing them next time.


----------



## AndrasBP

Welsh_Sion said:


> Consequently, I have been known to pronounce (unthinkingly) the name of the largecar sales company, 'Cargiant' as something like 'kar.GHEE.ant' (following Wwlsh pronunciation)


Because it *is* Welsh, just with a typo. It should be "*Corgi*-ant".


----------



## Terio

French is not a strictly "phonetic" language, since orthography is based in phonology, etymology, analogy and grammar. But these various bases rarely impede the correct decoding of the new words. Newly borrowed words may be more frustrating, since we generally keep the original orthography : people who know the original language will tend to stay close to the original prononciation, other people will try to prononce it "as it is written". A strictly invented word (a trade mark for example) will follow the phonetic principle. In fact, French is hard to write, but quite easy to read : a sound may be written in many different ways, but a letter or a group of letters (given the context in some cases) generally represent the same sound.


----------



## Yendred

Terio said:


> a letter or a group of letters (given the context in some cases) generally represent the same sound.


Generally indeed. Try to pronounce the name of Louis de Broglie (although the Italian origin of his name explains it).
And what about _second(e) [sə.ɡɔ̃(d)] _or_ gageure [ɡa.ʒyʁ]   _


----------



## AndrasBP

Yendred said:


> Generally indeed. Try to pronounce the name of Louis de Broglie (although the Italian origin of his name explains it).
> And what about _second(e) [sə.ɡɔ̃(d)] _or_ gageure [ɡa.ʒyʁ]  _


My favourite example is "héros" = "Ayrault".


----------



## Yendred

AndrasBP said:


> My favourite example is "héros" = "Ayrault".


This example is in the first category mentioned by @Terio: a sound that is written in several different ways. A third way is _héraut_.


----------



## Terio

Yendred said:


> Generally indeed. Try to pronounce the name of Louis de Broglie (although the Italian origin of his name explains it).


Since I am not a prince, a duke or a specialist in the history of mathematics or physics, I would prononce it as bro-gli. It is, basically, a foreign word.



Yendred said:


> And what about _second(e) [sə.ɡɔ̃(d)] _or_ gageure [ɡa.ʒyʁ]  _


_Second _is one of many exceptions. _Gageure _follows the rule : _ge_ before _a, o _or _u _reads as _j_ (but you have to know that the suffix is _ure_, not _eure). _


----------



## Yendred

Terio said:


> _Gageure _follows the rule : _ge_ before _a, o _or _u _reads as _j_ (but you have to know that the suffix is _ure_, not _eure)._


Yes try to explain to a foreign learner why in _gageure _(based on _gage_) the sound is [ʒyʁ], and in _rageur_ (based on _rage_) or _nageur_ (based on _nage_) it is [ʒœʁ] 



Terio said:


> I would prononce it as bro-gli


You would, but you shouldn't. The family name of Louis de Broglie is pronounced [bʁɔj], whereas the French city of Broglie (although itself coming from the family de Broglie) is pronounced [bʁo.ɡli]


----------



## Terio

Yendred said:


> Yes try to explain to a foreign learner why in _gageure _(based on _gage_) the sound is [ʒ], and in _rageur_ (based on _rage_) or _nageur_ (based on _nage_) it is [ʒœʁ]


The only way is to explain that _gageure_ is _gag-_ [gaʒ] + the suffix _-ure_  [yʁ], as _bris-ure_, while _rageur_ is _rag- _[raʒ] + the suffix _-eur _[œʁ]. It should also be explained to the many French speakers who mispronounce that word. 

I think it should be written gageüre, but with the "immortals" of the Académie française, it can take a couple of centuries to make such a revolutionary decision.  






Yendred said:


> You would, but you shouldn't. The family name of Louis de Broglie is pronounced [bʁɔj], whereas the French city of Broglie (although itself coming from the family de Broglie) is pronounced [bʁo.ɡli]


Well, _noblesse oblige._


----------



## dojibear

> how do non-phonetic language speakers pronounce newly invented words?​


In English most "new words" are combinations of existing words. So you just pronounce the old words. English also has a number of standard prefixes (co-, un-, in-) and suffixes, with standard pronunciations.

Some examples: airplane = air+plane, airport = air+port, wristwatch = wrist+watch, smartphone = smart+phone, railroad = rail+road. 

Mandarin similarly combines existing words: airplane = fly+machine (飞机), airport = fly-machine+field (飞机场), smartphone = hand+machine (手机), wristwatch = hand+clock (手表), computer = electric brain (电脑).



Terio said:


> Newly borrowed words may be more frustrating, since we generally keep the original orthography : people who know the original language will tend to stay close to the original prononciation, other people will try to prononce it "as it is written".


Borrowing words from a different language happens often in English. In the last 70 years, English has borrowed many fashion and cooking words from French, Italian and elsewhere. How are they pronounced? Some people pronounce them the "correct" way (as pronounced in the original language), while other people convert it into "the nearest sounds that we use in English".

There isn't much "as it is written", since there isn't a consistent set of rules for "how to pronounce a word spelled this way".

For example the Japanese word "tsunami" is now common in English. But English has no words starting with "ts". Some people can say "tsu-". The ones who cannot say "sunami", and use the flat English "a".

The French word "chic" is now part of English (back in 1950 it was French). From the spelling you would expect it to be pronounced "chick", but it isn't. It is pronounced "sheek", which uses English sounds but imitates the French pronunciation.


----------



## Yendred

dojibear said:


> The French word "chic" is now part of English (back in 1950 it was French). From the spelling you would expect it to be pronounced "chick", but it isn't. It is pronounced "sheek", which uses English sounds but imitates the French pronunciation.


 
This reminds me of _Chicago_ [ʃɪˈkɑːɡoʊ], and its Algonquian origin.


----------



## Linnets

Italian is quickly becoming a "non-phonetic" language due to the incredible amount of English words arriving every day. We write _computer_ and _mouse_ but pronounce it [komˈpjuːter] and [mauz] instead of [komˈpuːter] and [ˈmɔuze] if they were pronounced following the orthography, as it's usual in Italian. There are also problems with some Italian borrowings in English: for example -_z_-/-_zz_- pronounced [-tts] or [-ddz-] in Italian but generally [-z-] in English. _Sgraffiti _begins with [zɡ-] a combination that doesn't exist in English at the beginning of a word and it's usually pronounced [sk-] in English. Words of Greek origin with _ps_- are pronounced [ps-] in Italian but [s-] in English; this leads to some interesting confusion: the film _Psycho_ by Alfred Hitchcock was distribuited as _Psyco _in Italy and pronounced [ˈpsiːko] instead of [ˈsaɪkoʊ].


----------



## Welsh_Sion

But English has no words starting with "ts". Some people can say "tsu-". The ones who cannot say "sunami", and use the flat English "a".

_______

Tsk, tsk, @dojibear. Have you not heard of the tsetse fly? (Though, I admit it's not an originally an English word.)


----------



## Linnets

Have you ever heard English speakers saying [ˈpʰiːzə] instead of [ˈpʰiːtsə]?


----------



## merquiades

@Yendred   How else are you to write the sound [ʒy] in "gageure"?  It can't be gagure [gy].  Think of mangeons, mangez.  The e softens the g.  I'm for writing gageûre though, like piqûre.




Linnets said:


> Italian is quickly becoming a "non-phonetic" language due to the incredible amount of English words arriving every day. We write _computer_ and _mouse_ but pronounce it [komˈpjuːter] and [mauz] instead of [komˈpuːter] and [ˈmɔuze]


Italian should start coining new words for modern items.  Perhaps they could be _computatore _and _topino_.


Linnets said:


> Have you ever heard English speakers saying [ˈpʰiːzə] instead of [ˈpʰiːtsə]?


Really?  You heard someone say pizza like Pisa?
It bothers me when Germans say pittsa with short i, as in Brad Pitt.


----------



## Linnets

merquiades said:


> Italian should start coining new words for modern items.  Perhaps they could be _computatore _and _topino_.


_Calcolatore_, _elaboratore_, and _computiere_ (coined by Italian linguist Arrigo Castellani) exist, but they are seldom used. As far as _mouse_ is concerned, _topo_, _topino _and similar have also some sexual meaning, so they didn't succed to replace the English words.



merquiades said:


> Really?  You heard someone say pizza like Pisa?


No, I was just asking. I know for English speakers the grapheme _z _is strongly linked to /z/ phoneme so it could be possible to mispronounce it in foreign words. I guess _nazi_ is often mispronunced as well.


----------



## Yendred

merquiades said:


> @Yendred How else are you to write the sound [ʒy] in "gageure"?


I was misinterpreted, I don't want to write it in another way  
I wanted to point out that some French words are not easily readable, and that the same group of letters does not always correspond with the same sound.


----------



## merquiades

Yendred said:


> I was misinterpreted, I don't want to write it in another way
> I wanted to point out that some French words are not easily readable, and that the same group of letters does not always correspond with the same sound.


No, no. It's me who wants to write it another way.  


Linnets said:


> _Calcolatore_, _elaboratore_, and _computiere_ (coined by Italian linguist Arrigo Castellani) exist, but they are seldom used. As far as _mouse_ is concerned, _topo_, _topino _and similar have also some sexual meaning, so they didn't succed to replace the English words.
> 
> 
> No, I was just asking. I know for English speakers the grapheme _z _is strongly linked to /z/ phoneme so it could be possible to mispronounce it in foreign words. I guess _nazi_ is often mispronunced as well.


Ok!
Maybe like in the 50's when pizza was exotic and unheard of, people might have pronounced _pizza _like that, but not nowadays.  It's used daily.  I've heard the elderly pronounce Italy and Italian wrong, but not pizza.


----------



## Yendred

merquiades said:


> It's me who wants to write it another way.


Then it could be simply spelled _gajure_, like in _jure_.


----------



## Linnets

merquiades said:


> I've heard the elderly pronounce Italy and Italian wrong


In what way? I'm curious.


----------



## merquiades

Linnets said:


> In what way? I'm curious.





Spoiler: Italy and Italian



Pronounce it-ly and eye-talian.


----------



## Cork Irish

Linnets said:


> No, I was just asking. I know for English speakers the grapheme _z _is strongly linked to /z/ phoneme so it could be possible to mispronounce it in foreign words. I guess _nazi_ is often mispronunced as well.


No, I have never heard any English speaker pronounce "pizza" with /z/, but then pizza is not a rare thing - everyone has pizza, so everyone knows. You transcribed it [ˈpʰiːtsə], and there may be native speakers who say that, but I would prefer [ˈpʰiːˀtsə] or even [ˈpʰiːʔsə], where [ˀ] is the symbol for pre-glottalisation. I think L2 awareness of pre-glottalisation is low, but nearly everyone in England has it in their English.

Nazi - well [ˈnɑːˀtsi]or [ˈnɑːʔsi] is what everyone says today, but Winston Churchill, in an era where there was less use of foreign pronunciations, said [ˈnɑːzi], and some people do still say that, although a small minority.


----------



## Cork Irish

merquiades said:


> Spoiler: Italy and Italian
> 
> 
> 
> Pronounce it-ly and eye-talian.


I don't know anyone who says It-ly, and I don't think that pronunciation exists. You probably mean [ˈɪʔl̩i], which does exist and is not a mispronunciation as such as glottal realisation of [t] is widely found. Note the glottal stop and the lingering on the syllabic [l]. This can also be [ɪʔᵊli]. This is *not* [ˈɪtli].


----------



## Linnets

Cork Irish said:


> I don't know anyone who says It-ly, and I don't think that pronunciation exists.


I think he meant [ˈɪtəlaɪ] and [aɪˈtʰæljən].


----------



## Cork Irish

Linnets said:


> I think he meant [ˈɪtəlaɪ] and [aɪˈtʰæljən].


In the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta HMS Pinafore, it is [aɪˈtʰælaɪˈjæn], but this is a humorous operetta, and it is sung, so the words have to fit the music.

e.g. in 



  at 00:40 you can hear it pronounced that way.


----------



## merquiades

Linnets said:


> I think he meant [ˈɪtəlaɪ] and [aɪˈtʰæljən].





Spoiler: Itly



[ˈɪtli:] and [aɪˈtʰæljən].  Both words with 2 syllables.  These are elderly people in the United States.  I'm very familiar with this pronunciation.


----------



## Terio

Linnets said:


> No, I was just asking. I know for English speakers the grapheme _z _is strongly linked to /z/ phoneme so it could be possible to mispronounce it in foreign words. I guess _nazi_ is often mispronunced as well.



In French : [pid'za] (or [pi'dza]) and [na'zi]. I don't know why the italian double z is associated with dz instead of ts.


----------



## merquiades

Terio said:


> In French : [pid'za] (or [pi'dza]) and [na'zi]. I don't know why the italian double z is associated with dz instead of ts.


Because it's natural in French to voice sibilants between vowels.


----------



## Dymn

In Catalan we say /ˈpiddzə/ (if native this would be written _pitza_).


----------



## Terio

merquiades said:


> Because it's natural in French to voice sibilants between vowels.


I am not convinced by that explanation. French opposes casse [kas] and case [caz] and such pairs are far from uncommon. The reason is probably in the letter z, (always [z] in French. If it were written  "pitsa", I am pretty sure that we would prononce [pitsa].


----------



## Penyafort

For new anglicisms in Spanish, there's a clear difference between most Latin Americans, who try to imitate the original English pronunciation, therefore getting apart from the spelling, and Spaniards, who don't incorporate non-Spanish sounds or pronounce it 'as written'. (For a Latin American, saying them 'as written' shows you're ignorant. For a Spaniard, saying them with English sounds make you look stuck-up or stupid. Both speakers think they're right in their stance, creating a difference in the reading of words like *wifi, meme, DVD, Instagram, Spiderman*, etc. ) Even when saying names, there are differences. Trump is said /tromp/ in Latin America and /tram(p)/ in Spain. Both are wrong but both think they're right.


----------



## Terio

Penyafort said:


> For new anglicisms in Spanish, there's a clear difference between most Latin Americans, who try to imitate the original English pronunciation, therefore getting apart from the spelling, and Spaniards, who don't incorporate non-Spanish sounds or pronounce it 'as written'. (For a Latin American, saying them 'as written' shows you're ignorant. For a Spaniard, saying them with English sounds make you look stuck-up or stupid. Both speakers think they're right in their stance, creating a difference in the reading of words like *wifi, meme, DVD, Instagram, Spiderman*, etc. ) Even when saying names, there are differences. Trump is said /tromp/ in Latin America and /tram(p)/ in Spain. Both are wrong but both think they're right.


The same difference exists between French spoken in Canada and in France. The degree of exposure to English is obviously different. Also, in Europe, many different languages are in contact. For a Frenchman or a Spaniard, English is just a language among others while, in America, English is "the" foreign language.

In Canada, if you prononce an English word the French way, people will find you a bit ridiculous. But if you dare prononce a Spanish or a German word "correctly" they will find you pedant. Yet, our prononciantions are clearly different from the original English.


----------

