# third tone + neutral tone 轻声 / third tone + first tone



## yuechu

大家好！

I have a rather basic question about the pronunciation of a 3rd tone-轻声 (or 3rd tone-1st tone) combination, for example in the word "牡丹". I think that this can either be pronounced 3-1 or 3-轻声, right? I was wondering, are the pronunciations of the tone combinations 3-1 and 3-轻声 really that different? Actually, at least for some speakers, can these be the same?
Is the only difference between the two that the 1st tone is slightly higher than 轻声 in this context? When I try pronouncing them, I find it hard to tell the difference! (both in recognizing the difference and pronouncing both combinations)
If anyone does pronounce these differently, could you upload a sound file of them?

Thanks!


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## retrogradedwithwind

It's too hard to give a complete and correct reply...

Just to me, 牡丹 should be 3-1, never 3-轻. But for someone else 3-轻 is perhaps OK...

I can't say more about this question...


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## SimonTsai

The 丹 in 牡丹 should be always pronounced the first tone, I would say. It could be understood as 'red'.

The light tone is only for characters that add little meaning, such as the 頭 in 木頭, and the 子 in 孩子.

As for your question, examples of 3-1 and 3-0 would be desirable.


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## fyl

I'm OK with both 1st tone and neutral tone.
It's probably true that there is no big difference between the two pronunciations. All I can tell is it's mostly about the length rather than pitch. In mu3dan, 牡 is much longer than 丹. In mu3dan1, 丹 is pronounced in its full length.
And when speaking fast, it can often be something in between.


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## Skatinginbc

yuechu said:


> a 3rd tone-轻声


我的


yuechu said:


> 3rd tone-1st tone


好吃


yuechu said:


> are the pronunciations of the tone combinations 3-1 and 3-轻声 really that different?


Yes.
我嘚嘚的馬蹄聲
我的嘚嘚小馬


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## SimonTsai

@yuechu, I am sorry that I cannot upload an audio file, but someone could, maybe. Below are examples to be contrasted that I come up with:

好啊 (the light tone)！既然你這樣對我，我也就不再念你師父對我的救命之恩，跟你客氣了。
這個網站提供許多 (the first tone) 色情影片，男優個個人帥、器大、活好。
看著你過得幸福，我很高 (the first tone) 興，我很快樂。
要吃燒烤？好啊 (the light tone)！加一。


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## Skatinginbc

扁丹 biǎn3-dān1 (扁平的丹藥) vs. 扁擔  biǎn3-dan0


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## SimonTsai

Skatinginbc said:


> 擔  dan0


But there I always pronounce the forth tone. Although the light tone seems to be received, I am happy to be in the minority.


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## yuechu

Thank you all for your replies! I understand the difference between the two pronunciations a lot better now after reading your examples! 



Skatinginbc said:


> 我嘚嘚的馬蹄聲
> 我的嘚嘚小馬


Oh, sorry, Skatinginbc. What do those two sentences mean?

Actually, the reason I was asking about 牡丹 is because the online dictionary I've been using (Zhongwen Chinese Popup Dictionary for Firefox) only has the pronunciation 3-轻声 and not 3-1. Which of these two pronunciations is the standard? (or are both correct?)


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## fyl

In mainland standard Mandarin, 轻声 is the standard pronunciation according to 现代汉语词典. But the 1st tone is widely used (in the north) too.


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## hx1997

I didn't know the standard is 3-轻声! I've always pronounced it 3-1.


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## Skatinginbc

yuechu said:


> Oh, sorry, Skatinginbc. What do those two sentences mean?


我(wo3)嘚(de*1*)嘚的馬蹄聲 the clip-clop sound of my horse's hooves
我(wo3)的(de*0*)嘚嘚小馬 the clip-clopping pony of mine
嘚 (de1): an onomatopoeia of the sound of horse hooves 形容马蹄踏地的声音


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## yuechu

Thanks for the explanation, Skatinginbc!


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## stephenlearner

I repeated this sentence 这朵牡丹真漂亮 several times, with mu3dan1 and mu3dan0. I can't figure out which is more natural. But both are natural to me.

Sometimes, 轻声 can differentiate the meaning of a word. For instance:
地道4  vs 地道0
这个地道4很长：This tunnel is very long.
这样说不地道0：This kind of expression is not natural.


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