# Active past participles



## panettonea

In a book I have, it states: "Active past (traditionally 'aorist') participle[s] [are formed] in -ας, -ασα, -αν or -ών, -ούσα, -όν....The active past participle in -ας- is formed from the active perfective stem, e.g. ο γράψας....Examples of the other type of active past participle include:  ο παθών,...ο τυχών...."

What is the difference (if any) between these two types of active past participles?  If you have an arbitrary verb that does have an active past participle, how would you know whether to form it in -ας, -ασα, -αν, or -ών, -ούσα, -όν?  And is it possible for a verb to have both kinds, or just one or the other?  Thanks for any info.


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## sotos

I am not sure if there is more general rule, but empirically I see that verbs in -άνω form the aorist in -θών. (τυγχάνω - τυχών, μανθάνω - μαθών, λανθάνω -λαθών etc).  
I don't think there are verbs with both kinds of aorist participles. If you take in account other aor.partcples (γιγνώσκω - γνούς) it seems that we have a nearly unpredictable phenomenon. Like earthquakes.


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## ireney

That's a complicated one. You see, these participles are remnants of ancient Greek. Well, you could say Katharevousa but let's stick with ancient Greek. Now, in ancient Greek there were two kind of Aorist (simpler to write  ). 

The first kind of aorist was the most usual one. The endings were very similar to the MG (-σα, -σες, etc). So, we're talking about all verbs like λύνω, γράφω, κόβω etc. These have an aorist participle endings in -ας, -ασα etc.

The second kind of aorist took the same ending as the ancient greek imperfect (παρατατικός). Which doesn't help much in modern Greek because we've normalized the endings of the Aorist.

So while in ancient Greek you'd have 
Λύω - έλυσα - λύσας
but
πάσχω - έπαθον - παθών

in modern Greek you have

λύνω -έλυσα- λύσας
and
πάσχω- έπαθα - παθών.

A general rule of thumb in modern Greek is that, if the aorist is created by a different stem than the present then chances are it takes the second set of endings for its participle (haven't opened a book to see if there's an actual rule; still haven't finished my coffee). Look at all the examples sotos provided for instance.


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## panettonea

sotos said:


> I am not sure if there is more general rule, but empirically I see that verbs in -άνω form the aorist in -θών. (τυγχάνω - τυχών, μανθάνω - μαθών, λανθάνω -λαθών etc).
> 
> I don't think there are verbs with both kinds of aorist participles. If you take in account other aor.partcples (γιγνώσκω - γνούς) it seems that we have a nearly unpredictable phenomenon. Like earthquakes.



Thanks.  Is there a resource on the Web that lists these participles for common verbs?  Or, when unsure about the proper forms, does your average person in Greece have to mosey on over to the local library and open up some big, fat reference book to find this information?


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> A general rule of thumb in modern Greek is that, if the aorist is created by a different stem than the present then chances are it takes the second set of endings for its participle (haven't opened a book to see if there's an actual rule; still haven't finished my coffee). Look at all the examples sotos provided for instance.



Thanks for the helpful info.  When you say _different stem_, do you mean "the stem changes by more than one letter"?  For instance, λύνω/έλυσα = same stem but πάσχω/έπαθα does not?

My book really should have given more information on this matter.  Although it's a great book overall, sometimes it's a bit deficient on certain topics.


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## Perseas

I found a pdf file with a table of the most common verbs that form aorist b (αόριστος β'). There is also theory. In active voice the endings of the participle of aorist b is _-ών,-οῦσα,-όν_ while in middle voice is _όμενος,-ομένη,-όμενον_. (That is endings of the present tense).
http://www.venetokleio.gr/school/userFiles/path/%CE%91%CE%9F%CE%A1%CE%99%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%A3%20%CE%92.pdf

For ex. the first verb of the table:
present:_ἄγω_ / participle:_ἄγων,ἄγουσα,ἄγον_
aor.b :_ἤγαγον_/ participle:_ἀγαγών,ἀγαγοῦσα,ἀγαγόν_. (Note:the stem of aor. b is _ἀγαγ-_. The initial_ η_ is augment and exists only in the indicative mood of the past tense)


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## ireney

Urgh, urgh, URRRRRGH! Forgot about that nonsense!

Yeah, that's the (insert vile word here) problem with modern Greek. You see, what happens is that _in reality _the stem is λυν- and the n disappears before the sigma of the ending. That's the much simpler rule we learn in ancient Greek. But in modern Greek what we now say is that λύνω has 3 bloody stems (λυν- λυσ- and λυθ), and γράφω has two (γραφ- and γραψ) and so on and so forth because nothing's better than complicating our lives!

And of rant (and that's short, trust you me).

Well, given that all grammars of modern Greek you're going to find talk about a multiple stem kind of deal, let me modify my advice: If you encounter a verb whose Aorist does not have an /s/ sound before the ending (which means no -σα, -ψα, -ξα) it's likely if not surely going to have the second set of endings.


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## sotos

panettonea said:


> when unsure about the proper forms, does your average person in Greece have to mosey on over to the local library and open up some big, fat reference book to find this information?



It depends on how correct you want to be. The aor.partcpls are not frequently used in modern spoken Greek. Usually they are replaced with  _periphrasis_  like "αυτός που ... (v. in aorist)...".  If you want to write formal katharevousa, you have to look in a Dictionary of Verbs of Ancient Greek, or a Dict. of Irregular Verbs. These are not terribly hefty books and they give you all the 1st person singular forms of all tenses, participles, irregularities etc. 
Ancient forms of aor. partcpls are sometimes used wrongly in modern spoken Gr.  For ex. some say "ο παθός είναι και μαθός" instead of  "ο παθών είναι και μαθών".


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> I found a pdf file with a table of the most common verbs that form aorist b (αόριστος β'). There is also theory. In active voice the endings of the participle of aorist b is _-ών,-οῦσα,-όν_



Thank you--that's very helpful to know the most common cases.  Many of the forms look rather puristic, but hopefully that doesn't change the basic concept.



> while in middle voice is _όμενος,-ομένη,-όμενον_.



Is there a middle voice in modern Greek?


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> Yeah, that's the (insert vile word here) problem with modern Greek.



So even native speakers get frustrated sometimes, I see.    I imagine that for a lot of schoolchildren in Greece, Greek isn't their favorite subject.  



> If you encounter a verb whose Aorist does not have an /s/ sound before the ending (which means no -σα, -ψα, -ξα) it's likely if not surely going to have the second set of endings.



Thanks--that's short and sweet.


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## panettonea

sotos said:


> It depends on how correct you want to be. The aor.partcpls are not frequently used in modern spoken Greek.



It sounds as though mainly just in newspapers.  In fact, apparently someone wrote a dissertation on this topic 25 years ago:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Present_and_Aorist_Participles_in_Contem.html?id=f8TcNAAACAAJ



> If you want to write formal katharevousa, you have to look in a Dictionary of Verbs of Ancient Greek, or a Dict. of Irregular Verbs. These are not terribly hefty books and they give you all the 1st person singular forms of all tenses, participles, irregularities etc.



Glad that these resources exist, and that they aren't beyond the budget of your average Greek.  



> Ancient forms of aor. partcpls are sometimes used wrongly in modern spoken Gr.  For ex. some say "ο παθός είναι και μαθός" instead of  "ο παθών είναι και μαθών".



I guess those folks are just living in the past.


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## Nona35

OK if you please I want to know what is exactly the meaning of "γενέσθαι", which I found it is the 
"γίγνομαι ρήμα μέση αόριστος β απαρέμφατο"? Thank you


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## Αγγελος

Nona35 said:


> OK if you please I want to know what is exactly the meaning of "γενέσθαι", which I found it is the "γίγνομαι ρήμα μέση αόριστος β απαρέμφατο"? Thank you


γίγνομαι means "I become" or "I happen".
The infinitive present is γίγνεσθαι; the infinitive aorist is γενέσθαι. There are two more infinitives: future (γενήσεσθαι) and perfect (γεγονέναι).
The difference between present and aorist in moods other than the indicative is NOT one of time, but one of aspect. Thus, both γίγνεσθαι and γενέσθαι will be translated as "to become" or 'to happen", the difference being that the former implies an ongoing or repeated occurrence and the latter a single, completed one. To make up examples, ᾤετο λύκος γίγνεσθαι = he thought he was turning into a wolf, but εβούλετο λύκος γενέσθαι = he wanted to turn into a wolf.
Two standard expressions involving that form are το δυνατόν γενέσθαι, meaning "that which can happen", and τί μέλλει γενέσθαι; meaning "what is going to happen?"
In your grammatical explanation, μέση refers to the voice of the verb γίγνομαι and β to the fact that its aorist is formed with the endings of the imperfect (εγενόμην, εγένου... as opposed to a regular "first" aorist, such as ελυσάμην, ελύσω...)
All this, of course, concerns Ancient Greek only. In Modern Greek there are no infinitives and the aorist of γίνομαι is έγινα.


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