# Kefir



## Wolverine9

Does this Russian word originate in Turkic or a Caucasian language?  It refers to a yogurt based drink, but what would be its literal meaning?


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## ancalimon

I can't find kefir in a certain etymology dictionary. It's probably Caucasian. Maybe their attempt at making Kımız (fermented horse milk)


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## Maroseika

According to the Ossetian etymologist Vasiliy Abayev, in Russian this word is from some Caucasus language, however not clear from which one exactly and whether this word is proper Caucasian or loaned, cf.:

Mingrelian kipuri - sour clotted milk prepared in the skin n(isolated word);
Balkar gǝрǝ - kefir;
Ossetian къæпы [kkapy] - kefir.

At least these form show that it can't be Turkic.


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## Wolverine9

Ossetian is an Iranian language, though.  It must have borrowed the word too.  

Wikipedia proposes an etymology from Old Turkic _köpür _"milk froth, foam."  I don't know if that's tenable.


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## Treaty

Wolverine9 said:


> Ossetian is an Iranian language, though.  It must have borrowed the word too.
> Wikipedia proposes an etymology from Old Turkic _köpür _"milk froth, foam."  I don't know if that's tenable.



If it was related to "foam" the the Persian _kaf _and Soghdian _kwb _(both mean foam or froth) may have been better explanation. However, as you said, the probability of an Iranian origin is very low.


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## Maroseika

Turkic source of the Ossetian word is far not evident, as Abayev even doesn't mention this possibility.

What makes this Turkic version rather doubtful is that in Turkish it doesn't mean any foodstuff, but just "foaming" from köpük - foam. Proper kefir in Turkish is called kefir - the word loaned ulimately from Russian. 
By the way, I'm not sure köpür really means "milk foam" and not just "foam". Maybe some Trukish native will clarify this point.

From what we can conclude from the history of kefir, it has first got to Russia from Karachai and Balkar people in the end of the 19 century and yet later it has appeared outside the Russian Empire. Before that it was not known outside the region near Elbrus mountain. Therefore Balkar form gǝрǝ should have been the primary form and it's very likely that the word is ultimately Balkarian.


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## ancalimon

Actually there is a word kef in Turkish.  It is the foam that is created when you boil meat.

It comes from kef , kew , küf  meaning the following :  "to relax" "to unwind" "to loosen" "to fade" "to ease off" "to soften"

köpük : foam (from anything including food or water or shampoo, etc..)

köpür (verb form) : to effervesce , to spume, to create foams.


This verb should also be related: kabar: to bloat, to surge, to swell, to tumefy, to vesicate

By the way, "Persian _kaf _and Soghdian _kwb" _probably are Turkic loans. Also Mongolian "köge" probably comes from Turkic.


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## fdb

Ossetic къæпы /kʼʌpə/ is definitely a loanword from one of the Caucasus languages. The ejective consonants like /kʼ/ do not occur in Ossetic words of Iranian etymology.


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## Maroseika

ancalimon said:


> Actually there is a word kef in Turkish. .



But if we follow the Turkic version, how came there is no word in Turkish similar to "kefir" and referring to what we now call kefir? Of course, thru centuries the name might switch from one sour milk product to some other one, but is or was there really anything like that in Turkish language and cuisine?


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## Wolverine9

I bought a bottle of Kefir today and it listed the word's origin from Turkish _keif _"good feeling."  This appears to be another fanciful etymology.


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## Treaty

Wolverine9 said:


> I bought a bottle of Kefir today and it listed the word's origin from Turkish _keif _"good feeling."  This appears to be another fanciful etymology.



Another fanciful etymology is found in Persian Wikipedia as a corruption of _kaf_+_shiir_ (foam[ing] milk).



ancalimon said:


> This verb should also be related: kabar: to bloat, to surge, to swell, to tumefy, to vesicate
> 
> By the way, "Persian _kaf _and Soghdian _kwb" _probably are Turkic loans. Also Mongolian "köge" probably comes from Turkic.



I would say it may be reverse. _Kaf- _is found in Avestan (meaning foam) and, I suppose, in Sanskrit as _kapha_ (= frothy). 

_Kabar _also reminds me of Arabic root _k-b-r_ (~ large, grow), especially the verb _kabbar_- (of form II) with similar meanings as you mentioned. However, I can't be sure if there is no genuine Turkish word like this.


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## Maroseika

fdb said:


> Ossetic къæпы /kʼʌpə/ is definitely a loanword from one of the Caucasus languages. The ejective consonants like /kʼ/ do not occur in Ossetic words of Iranian etymology.


So къæпы could not come directly from Balkar gǝрǝ? As the first consonant in Balkar cannot be гъ, only г. Unfortunately I don't know what kind of "k" is in the Mingrelian word - plosive ყ or soft კ.
By the way, are there any cognats of Balkar gǝрǝ in Turkish?


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## Yigidim

Treaty said:


> Another fanciful etymology is found in Persian Wikipedia as a corruption of _kaf_+_shiir_ (foam[ing] milk).
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it may be reverse. _Kaf- _is found in Avestan (meaning foam) and, I suppose, in Sanskrit as _kapha_ (= frothy).
> 
> _Kabar _also reminds me of Arabic root _k-b-r_ (~ large, grow), especially the verb _kabbar_- (of form II) with similar meanings as you mentioned. However, I can't be sure if there is no genuine Turkish word like this.



I would say this is 100% reverse that you say, cause sound change couldn´t be "f" > "p", it is wrong, a well known example older indo european "p" sound was replaced by an "f" sound such as pater>phather(father) in modern language, so it not possible to happen like " kaf "or "kapha(kafa)" > " köpür " in Turkic language so Turkic couldn´t take from this language but it could be reverse "köpür/köpir" > kephir(kefir) > kaf/kef, it is also the same sound change like that for example "yubga/yupka" from OldTurkic to "yufka" in modern turkic language,  moreover latin A, it is descended from phoenician aleph(alef) from reconstructed proto canaanite "alp" from akkad "alpu" but actually it is originate from Sumerian "ud" or "gud" from proto Turkic "ud"/"bud" which means "ox"

Avestan and sanskrit from akkad after Sumerians language which introduced like unknown but actually sumerians language is much more closer to Ural Altaic (Turkic) language than the other residuas languages such as between akkad language and arabic language. 

There is actually genuine Turkish word like köpük/köpür from<<OldTurkic  Köpürmek/köpirmek,(verb), which means foam, lather, bubble, swell, swell out and also like kabarcik/kabarik Turkic word from<<OldTurkic kabarmak(verb) which means swell, upsurge, bubble, swollen, swell up, grow up from <<OldTurkic  root "kap-/kab-"


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## scythian_horseman

the term Iranian is a big myth , like scythians were not Iranians , it was the other way around , scythians were forefathers to the persians of Bronze age.


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## amed

According to the Turkish etymology dictionary, Kefir (kefir - Nişanyan Sözlük) has nothing to do with Turkish or Turkic but a fabrication of false nationalist propaganda.

Kefir is most probably derived from Persian, Kurdish, Sogdian, Sanskrit... (Indo-European: *kapʰas) word of Kef, Kaf, Kapha, etc. meaning frothy, froth, foam, bubbles...

There is another relevant word in Turkish; "kevgir (kefgir)" which is a loan word from Kurdish and Persian meaning Kev (Kef: foam) + gir (holder): Skimmer. This is exactly what skimmer does, filtering foam or froth.

Answers to other claims:

1- "word's origin from Turkish _keif _"good feeling..": No it is not right, the word derives from Arabic _كَيْف_‎ (kayf) and means pleasure.

2- People need to know that almost all Turkic nations are linguistically either Persianised or Aryenised in history. Gokturk's official language was not Turkic but Sogdian which is an Indo-European language close to Tajik, Kurdish, Pashto etc.

3- Claiming that Kefir is deriving from Turkish "Köpür" has no etymological or historic ground or connection but another fanciful etymology claim of Turkey-based nationalist propaganda. You may not know or know that they even claimed that all existing languages are Turkish in the 1930s. So beware when referencing Turkish sources.


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## SparkInTheDark

amed said:


> Kefir is most probably derived from Persian, Kurdish, Sogdian, Sanskrit...


Most probably derived from which language? From all these languages? How can a word derive from many languages?



amed said:


> There is another relevant word in Turkish; "kevgir (kefgir)" which is a loan word from Kurdish and Persian


Again, how can a language borrow the very same word from two different languages?



amed said:


> 2- People need to know that almost all Turkic nations are linguistically either Persianised or Aryenised in history. Gokturk's official language was not Turkic but Sogdian which is an Indo-European language close to Tajik, Kurdish, Pashto etc.


What do you mean by _"almost all Turkic nations linguistically Persianised or Aryenised_"?

Did Gokturks have an official language? If they really had one and if it was not Turkic but Sogdian, then why did they not use their own language, Sogdian but a Turkic language on Orkhon inscriptions?



amed said:


> Kefir (kefir - Nişanyan Sözlük) has nothing to do with Turkish or Turkic but a fabrication of false nationalist propaganda.





amed said:


> but another fanciful etymology claim of Turkey-based nationalist propaganda.


How can an attempt of an etymological explanation be a certain country-based propaganda?

And do you have any kind of serious linguistic evidence to support all you have said so far?


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## konb

To comment just on this one: 


SparkInTheDark said:


> How can an attempt of an etymological explanation be a certain country-based propaganda?


There is actually a brilliant example in this very thread, where a user traces something back from Latin via Akkadian to Sumerian, and then in the end... to Proto-Turkic! that was really a good one


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## amed

SparkInTheDark said:


> Most probably derived from which language? From all these languages? How can a word derive from many languages?
> 
> 
> Again, how can a language borrow the very same word from two different languages?
> 
> 
> What do you mean by _"almost all Turkic nations linguistically Persianised or Aryenised_"?
> 
> Did Gokturks have an official language? If they really had one and if it was not Turkic but Sogdian, then why did they not use their own language, Sogdian but a Turkic language on Orkhon inscriptions?
> 
> 
> 
> How can an attempt of an etymological explanation be a certain country-based propaganda?
> 
> And do you have any kind of serious linguistic evidence to support all you have said so far?


Q-1: Most probably derived from which language? From all these languages? How can a word derive from many languages?

A-1: Yes from all these languages while all mentioned languages are Indo-European languages and share the same root word. All branches of the same family groups share the same root words that is similar to "I" in English, "Ich" in German, and "ik" in Dutch, and so on.

Q-2: Again, how can a language borrow the very same word from two different languages?

A-2: A language can take a word from 2 different languages if both belong to the same family. Turkish has thousands of loan words from Arabic, Persian, and Kurdish. Persian and Kurdish are belong to the same groups and Turks lived in both communities while Kurdish and Persian share similar root words, when this word passed to Turkish then it is either Kurdish or Persian so a language can borrow the same word from two different languages with a slight pronunciation.

Q-3: What do you mean by _"almost all Turkic nations linguistically Persianised or Aryenised_"?
A-3: If you read the history you would know what it means, as when most central Asian tribes or later on khanates moved in Khorasan and into Iran, most adopted Persian or Iranic languages as court language as well as lingua de franca. That means they are culturally Aryenised and most Turkic people adopted the cultural heritage of Iran.

Q-4: Did Gokturks have an official language? If they really had one and if it was not Turkic but Sogdian, then why did they not use their own language, Sogdian but a Turkic language on Orkhon inscriptions?
A-4: Yes Gokturks had an official language that is being used when they write to Chinese and neighbor states for communication and that was Sogdian language, not a Turkic language. Another example of how they use an Indo-European language. I am sure you can find many sources to understand this sociological transition and change.

Q-5: How can an attempt of an etymological explanation be certain country-based propaganda?
A-5: Turkey has attempted to fabricate baseless "facts" since 1924 claiming all languages of the world is deriving from a Turkic language. They even founded so-called institutions to fabricate stories for this including fabricating baseless so-called etymological explanations. If you read about how Turkey trying to distort history and fact, then you can see all clearly and please read and do your research about this: The *Sun Language Theory: * Sun Language Theory - Wikipedia

Q-6: And do you have any kind of serious linguistic evidence to support all you have said so far?
A-6: I have explained all to you above and if you want to know more please read about Persianised Asiatic groups and languages of Asia and the court languages of each state founded from China to Syria etc.

In addition to this, the word for Kefir is not Turkish or Turkic, the most extensive Turkish etymological dictionary says it all: "There is no connection between Kefir and any Turkic language word as claimed". Link is here for you to check: kefir - Nişanyan Sözlük. Turkish Universities even fabricate stories and baseless etymological explanations just because they want to claim for anything as much as they can. I have studied in Turkish university and I have seen how they do this and their intentions. Their motto is "claim for everything as much as you can" and if there is no connection to their version of the story then fabricate one.


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## amed

konb said:


> To comment just on this one:
> 
> There is actually a brilliant example in this very thread, where a user traces something back from Latin via Akkadian to Sumerian, and then in the end... to Proto-Turkic! that was really a good one


It is called nation-state pure false propaganda for this case. But some people still don't get how Turkish so-called universities are fabricating even the words not exist in Turkish or a Turkic language but just to say oh that is in our language and claim for it! I have studied in Turkey and I have seen how they fabricate baseless facts to spread it later on for propaganda purposes (so later on they can refer to a fake or fabricated source on wiki or here), pitty!


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## Sobakus

SparkInTheDark said:


> How can an attempt of an etymological explanation be a certain country-based propaganda?


Oh come on, surely few things are more common on this very forum: Protochronism on rationalwiki.


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## SparkInTheDark

konb said:


> There is actually a brilliant example in this very thread, where a user traces something back from Latin via Akkadian to Sumerian, and then in the end... to Proto-Turkic! that was really a good one





Sobakus said:


> Oh come on, surely few things are more common on this very forum: Protochronism on rationalwiki.



Yes, you are right. I should have been more precise as to what I was referring to because it obviously caused a misunderstanding. When I said "_an attempt of an etymological explanation"_, I really meant it, otherwise not such pseudo-linguistic/etymological claims as _konb_ pointed out. (Unless the OP provides reasonable linguistic evidence, his claim is doomed to be labelled as „pseudo”). So my question was indeed for any linguistic attempt which aims at providing a reasonable etymological explanation for a word, etc..


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## SparkInTheDark

amed said:


> I have explained all to you above



I will not bother to correct your mistakes, more precisely your deliberate distortion of facts. All you have written so far are sheer anti-Turkish/Turkey propaganda. All I can tell you is looking down on and trying to debase other people, nations, cultures, etc does not make yours better.


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## Włoskipolak 72

Kefir is very popular in Poland.. , but we have also  *maślanka *(buttermilk) , anyway I was curious about the origin so I read something about kefir !

The drink probably comes from the Caucasus. It is assumed that it was invented by ancient Caucasian shepherds [3]. For a long time it was produced in a traditional way in leather bags or oak barrels. Bags with kefir were hanged near the door so that passing people hit the sack, which allowed to maintain milk and kefir seeds well mixed . Armenians already in early ancientness drunk specially prepared fermented milk. Armenian name Kefiru is Macun (մմծուն).

*Kefir* (also spelled as *kephir* or *kefier*, Russian: Кефир; Adyghe: Къундэпс; Karachay-Balkar: Гыпы) (/kəˈfɪər/ _kə-FEER_), is a fermented milk drink similar to a thin yogurt or ayran that is made from *kefir grains*, a specific type of mesophilic symbiotic culture. The drink originated in the North Caucasus, in particular the Elbrus environs along the upper mountainous regions of Circassia, Karachay and Balkaria from where it came to Russia,and from there it spread to Europe and the United States.


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## MrMors

Hello everybody. I know this is an old thread but could not control myself not writing hear as finding Kefir words origin was driving me Crazy. A little background that, I am from a region in Iran that native language is a branch of turkic family of languages pretty close to Azeri turkish but with an accent known as old turkish. 

Surprisingly, in this region people use the word "Kifirmish: kifir+mish" for something that is mouldy or fermented. How this word can be used for example: 

kifarub: it is fermented.
Kifarmakh: fermentation.

It came to my surprise that in Azerbaycan (the country) they are not using this word but actually they are using Kifli which is most probably from the same root Kif+li

Hope this be find interesting to some experts opinions.


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## rarabara

ancalimon said:


> I can't find kefir in a certain etymology dictionary. It's probably Caucasian. Maybe their attempt at making Kımız (fermented horse milk)


as far as I know, Kımız is a type of old Turkish beer which has no relation with the explained word to the point of my view.
that word more properly is known here as "kebir" or "kefir" in Turkey.


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## Awwal12

rarabara said:


> Kımız is a type of old Turkish beer which has no relation with the explained word to the point of my view


The closest old Turki*c* analogue of beer is boza, which is, however, likely an Iranism. Qumız, on the other hand, is made from horse milk.


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## rarabara

Awwal12 said:


> The closest old Turki*c* analogue of beer is boza, which is, however, likely an Iranism. Qumız, on the other hand, is made from horse milk.


nope. 
because "boza" is not a beer. 
at least I know so. 
I do not say that Kımız was not made from horse milk. Check OP's first post.


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## Awwal12

rarabara said:


> because "boza" is not a beer.


A weak alcoholic beverage made from fermented cereals = beer, in the wider sense at least.  And in the most narrow sense it was created only about 1200 years ago and became sufficiently common in Europe just about 500 years ago.


rarabara said:


> I do not say that Kımız was not made from horse milk.


Well, beer made of milk is almost an oxymoron, as the technologies will be way too different (as much as the taste of the final product).


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## rarabara

Awwal12 said:


> A weak alcoholic beverage made from fermented cereals = beer, in the wider sense at least.


well, yes , really and very interestingly when I checked over google, it returned me that the explanation appearing above was correct. So, ... it is haram.
to be honest,I have been  deeply surprised.
I hope (InshaAllah) Allah will forgive Muslims (at least who were NOT aware from such details)


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