# Mordant refined Spanish and other languages



## ampurdan

Someone said to me: "there is such a thing, especially in well-educated Spanish writing, as delivery of devastating insults in very formal, overly courteous language". I was surprised. I thought that any language with a long history of educated writing was provided with many refined means to hurt. For instance, satire as a genre exists in the literature of many languages. Are the Spanish specimens speacially withering?


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## Fernando

I do not think Spanish is specially brilliant. Many English jokes and anecdotes are based in hidden insults.

Anyhow I remember a Spanish one. A guy (I can not remember his name) was addressed a long, critical and stupid speech. Afterwards he only said: "Tomo su opinión en lo que vale" (I will consider what is worth in your opinion").


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## Mate

Fernando said:


> I do not think Spanish is specially brilliant. Many English jokes and anecdotes are based in hidden insults.
> 
> 
> 
> Just Read or re-read anything from Oscar Wilde's phenomenal pen to confirm how very true is what Fernado stated.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow I remember a Spanish one. A guy (I can not remember his name) was addressed a long, critical and stupid speech. Afterwards he only said: "Tomo su opinión en lo que vale" (I will consider what is worth in your opinion").
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> O "lo tomo como de quien viene", lo que viene a ser algo parecido aunque mucho menos sutil.
> 
> Mateamargo
Click to expand...


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## RIU

Hi, 

I think that all languaje have sufficient resources for be biting. It depends on the hability of writer in that.


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## Outsider

For mordant and refined, I don't think you can beat French and English.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Outsider said:


> For mordant and refined, I don't think you can beat French and English.


... speakers. I think it's not the language, but rather, the culture.

For example, language puns are virtually possible in any language, but the trickiest ones I've ever seen so far are in English and French, especially in English.

If you take a look at Spanish-speaking comediants, you notice most jokes are a little silly, almost childish (huuuuge generalization in here). On the other hand, most English-speaking comediants come up with witty, elaborate play-on-words, and political criticism (another generalization). Language differences? I don't think so. 

I mean, one can find individuals in both cultural milieus whose sense of humour/use of pun are entirely different than what I'm describing, but in general lines, as a culture, things seem to work that way.

Anyway, that's just my view. Feel free to challenge me


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## Outsider

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> ... speakers.  I think it's not the language, but rather, the culture.


I agree that it's the culture, not the language. 


They had a more devious, cunniving history.


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## ampurdan

I think I've made myself misunderstood. I wasn't talking about humour, I was talking about devastating insults hidden under educated wording. I think also that Spanish is not particularly endowed for this purpose, but that's what a native English-speaker told me.

Now, I remember that once a French told me that when he began learning Spanish, he had the impression that this language was very harsh. The only example he gave me that I can recall is "don nadie" (something like "Mr. Nobody" for referring to people who have no importance), he thought it was a very cruel insult and he said that French has no insult of this kind. I thought he had to be overstating...


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

ampurdan said:


> I think I've made myself misunderstood. I wasn't talking about humour, I was talking about devastating insults hidden under educated wording. I think also that Spanish is not particularly endowed for this purpose, but that's what a native English-speaker told me.


Ok then. For those who can't take generalizations: the door is wide open (so you can kick me out any time!  Just kidding...) I'm bending my own rules in order to say this but, what the heck! 

I believe we (Spanish speakers) tend to be very open, direct and, sometimes even rude in the way we speak. Things with us tend to be quite straight-to-business when we express ourselves (not with other matters, though). So most of the times, we don't use educated wording to hide devastating insults. We just drop what we think/believe/feel right out. That of course, in general lines.

Maybe if we try to compare that familiarity, that rudeness we share all over the Spanish speaking world, with what we know of (or the way we perceive) other cultures, one might note the difference.

Again, I'm being as clumsily broad as one can be, so feel totally free of contradicting me, challenging me, fighting me... well, you get it


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## Fernando

Maybe, Ampurdan's friend is thinking in a phrase as (Please, NOTE it is just an example):

"Personalmente, no pienso que un Don nadie al que nada excepto el ninguneo debe otorgarse, sea tan cretino y pisaverde como para pergeñar semejantes sandeces. "


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## xarruc

A very British sense of humour is the belittlement of other's achievements. (Some in the UK condemn this as public-school boy humour, or macho humour, or so on, but I think it stems from a refusal to brag or let others brag).

The art of the "put-down" comes from just the thing Amp is getting at: Subtle use of language to be very harsh.

This can even be just a look. A common one is when someone comes in bragging about something and you competelty dismiss them, saying something like "...anyway, nice weather today." or "what do you want, a Blue Peter badge?)". Alternatively one can, rather over-enthusiastically declare "well, well done you!" and then leave a pause long enough to cut any further conversation.

These may not be sophisticated but they can be very subtle. I see nothing at all like that in the Spanish mentality - if someone brags everybody rushes to kiss-kiss and hear the story which will happily be dished out in full theatrical style. 

I know Amp was nt talking about humour, but they are related because this behaviour is so ingrained, I think, in the Brisitsh mentality that it can come out with some really strong and nasty, yet seemingly benign comments. Just watch the (House of) Commons debating to see the experts.

Spanish on the other hand, when I have a friendly discussion, serious debate or watch a debate in the media or Parliament it is always so serious, so heavy handed, the speakers drone on and on and on and make very well structured, very meticulous comments. The UK Commons is quick and snappy (when they are laying into each other), the two speakers are like jack-in-the-boxes. Here (Spain) it's sincere, magnanimous declarations with a holier-than-though attitude, not witty references to the others incompetence.

In addition to this, cultural element to the mordant comment, I think the language does not lend itself to this kind of task: I find it very hard to translate my put-downs at work. Often I have a witticism at hand, look in the dictionary and find that the word translates as something mundane, spoiling the effect of using a more sophisticated word. In addition I find that frequently words are not used figuratively in Spanish, when their equivalents are in English. So often I think I have my witicism translated perfectly, all double-entendres or metaphors are conserved, and hey presto! - it falls flat. (Of course there's always my sense of humour to question!).

As for the American point of view I'll let someone else discuss that, except to say that their style seems more serious, and less 'cheeky' than the Briitsh style.

PS. Sorry for using so many idioms, I hope you can all follow.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Fernando said:


> Maybe, Ampurdan's friend is thinking in a phrase as (Please, NOTE it is just an example):
> 
> "Personalmente, no pienso que un Don nadie al que nada excepto el ninguneo debe otorgarse, sea tan cretino y pisaverde como para pergeñar semejantes sandeces. "


Oh well, then it's a matter of redundance, instead of un-refined acrimony...


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## xarruc

> "Personalmente, no pienso que un Don nadie al que nada excepto el ninguneo debe otorgarse, sea tan cretino y pisaverde como para pergeñar semejantes sandeces. "



Personally, I don't believe that a Mr Nobody to whom nothing but my scorn should be awarded, could be so cretinous and pompous that he carries out  such nonsense.

How did I do?


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## xarruc

That reminded me. Another point about Spanish debates is that they send me scrambling to the dictionary looking up so many words. I think that haughtiness is perhaps approved in Spanish debate, as if to say, look I'm cleverer than you, your opinions aren't as important as mine because my vocabulary is better.

(Not that I would level that accusation at anyone present, or not, from WRF)


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

xarruc said:


> That reminded me. Another point about Spanish debates is that they send me scrambling to the dictionary looking up so many words. I think that haughtiness is perhaps approved in Spanish debate, as if to say, look I'm cleverer than you, your opinions aren't as important as mine because my vocabulary is better.
> 
> (Not that I would level that accusation at anyone present, or not, from WRF)


Oh yes, that's true. But I don't quite see how that supports or contradicts ampurdam's main point...


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## Fernando

xarruc said:


> This can even be just a look. A common one is when someone comes in bragging about something and you competelty dismiss them, saying something like "...anyway, nice weather today." or "what do you want, a Blue Peter badge?)". Alternatively one can, rather over-enthusiastically declare "well, well done you!" and then leave a pause long enough to cut any further conversation.
> 
> These may not be sophisticated but they can be very subtle. I see nothing at all like that in the Spanish mentality - if someone brags everybody rushes to kiss-kiss and hear the story which will happily be dished out in full theatrical style.



Jo, ¡qué inteligentes sois! De mayor quiero ser como vosotros.  [Please, forgive me]

I must admit I envy English Parliament debates. Spanish debates are too stiff and too based in long speeches. 

Obviously, if the speech said something I would prefer them but since politicians have nothing to say I prefer them to "get down" from the hills and return to puns and humour.


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## Fernando

xarruc said:


> Personally, I don't believe that a Mr Nobody to whom nothing but my scorn should be awarded, could be so cretinous and pompous that he carries out  such nonsense.
> 
> How did I do?


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## xarruc

> Oh yes, that's true. But I don't quite see how that supports or contradicts ampurdam's main point...


Well the British version of Fernando's biting comment, which I assume would be used when someone widely considered incompetent had just ballsed yet another thing up badly, might be to seemingly disinterestedly and resignedly sigh; "Well what did you expect?" This would be a put-down both to the one who cocked it up and to the one who employed him to cock up.


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## xarruc

> Jo, ¡qué inteligentes sois! De mayor quiero ser como vosotros



¡Ahora estás apriendo!


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## cuchuflete

Forget humor...which is an interesting but distinct topic.  Have a look at some of the more prolonged, even bitter debates in gramática and solamente español.   Note the trajectory of the tone and register, as people dig their heels in, and keep on repeating the same points.  What begins as casual, colloquial conversation acquires an ever stiffer, more formal style.  "hombre" morphs into 'mi estimado colega'.  The other party corresponds, shifting from ordinary speech to an ever higher register, as the battle escalates.  Insincere compliments to one's opponent are offered as preamble to a verbal punch in the snout.

I'm not at all surprised that the native SP speakers don't notice this, and that some 'foreigners' do.


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## papa majada

I wish I could offer a great example, but I can't. All I can say is that as a speaker of both languages, and knowing both the "anglo" (U.S) and "latino" (Puerto Rico/España) cultures, I have to agree with Ampurdan that the English language does lend itself to a more subtle and sophisticated way of insulting!


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## ireney

cuchuflete said:


> Forget humor...which is an interesting but distinct topic.  Have a look at some of the more prolonged, even bitter debates in gramática and solamente español.   Note the trajectory of the tone and register, as people dig their heels in, and keep on repeating the same points.  What begins as casual, colloquial conversation acquires an ever stiffer, more formal style.  "hombre" morphs into 'mi estimado colega'.  The other party corresponds, shifting from ordinary speech to an ever higher register, as the battle escalates.  Insincere compliments to one's opponent are offered as preamble to a verbal punch in the snout.
> 
> I'm not at all surprised that the native SP speakers don't notice this, and that some 'foreigners' do.



This is slightly different too though isn't it? I mean it is not the language itself that facilitates such an exchange but its users that have such a "habit".  Since I hardly speak any Spanish I cannot comment on how refined the insults can be in this language but I can say for sure that I have read exquisite phrases in both English and Greek that are the verbal equivalent of multiple stabbings.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

ireney said:


> This is slightly different too though isn't it? I mean it is not the language itself that facilitates such an exchange but its users that have such a "habit". Since I hardly speak any Spanish I cannot comment on how refined the insults can be in this language but I can say for sure that I have read exquisite phrases in both English and Greek that are the verbal equivalent of multiple stabbings.


Exactly.  As I said already, I think, culturally, Spanish speakers are more prone to say things with no refining proccess...  but that is a blunt generalization.

Individuals are individuals.  As we say in Spanish, "cada cabeza es un mundo" => each head is a world of its own (I forgot the corresponding idiom in English...  ).  So if we state that not every man/woman is qualified to join the army, neither should we state that every English speaker is more skilfull/willing to use subtle manners to insult others...


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## cuchuflete

ireney said:


> This is slightly different too though isn't it? I mean it is not the language itself that facilitates such an exchange but its users that have such a "habit".  Since I hardly speak any Spanish I cannot comment on how refined the insults can be in this language but I can say for sure that I have read exquisite phrases in both English and Greek that are the verbal equivalent of multiple stabbings.



You may be right.  I think it's much more 'cultural' than linguistic, _per se_. Let's go back to Ampurdan's original citation:  



> "there is such a thing, especially in well-educated Spanish writing, as delivery of devastating insults in very formal, overly courteous language".


As two or more tenacious combatants exhange vollies, the native Spanish speakers, especially the better educated ones, tend to move from 'normal' speech patterns to a more elevated register.
The juxtaposition or overlaying of high-sounding stylistics and flat disagreement and highlighting of the opponent's logical or factual lapses create what is, for an English speaker, a sense of witnessing an argument between Luís de Góngora and Francisco Quevedo.  The language is elegant, eloquent, and even arcane, but the disagreement, and the force of the blows and parries, is blunt.  

It's something we tend not to do in English, where we try, with greater or lesser effect, to substitute wit for force.  The BE speakers are usually better than the AE contingent, as it is part of their cultural tradition.

​


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## panjabigator

These are qualities which I believe are inherent to the Urdu language. There are a myriad of ways in which one can be subtly rude or even indignant without saying anything vulgar. I remember once being told that to tell someone to get lost in Urdu, one would say literally "please remove your presence from here." A bit much.

 Not to offend anyone, but I think insults vary based on the sophistication of culture.  Urdu culture is generally considered the most refined and polished of South Asia.  It only makes sense that their insults follow suit.


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## Outsider

Aren't you confusing politeness with sarcasm, Panj?


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## panjabigator

It very well could be sarcasm in some instances, but I always viewed Urdu as a language of refinement, which had an unecessarily high quantity of "polite" type insults.  I could very well be confused...nothing new there.  

I think it is interesting that French is opinioned to be more lofty with insults than Spanish.  How do the Iberian languages compare amongst each other?


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## Outsider

Outsider said:


> For mordant and refined, I don't think you can beat French and English.


And when you mix the two...



			
				[URL=http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=2074717#post2074717]Grop[/URL] said:
			
		

> Well, I suspect your inquiry failed to ask a representative portion of French population. In 2002 we made a very funny poll: Would you rather have Chirac or Le Pen for president for the next five years?
> 
> Millions of people were asked, and the answer is that we generally preferred Chirac.


_Superbe !_


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## Outsider

panjabigator said:


> I think it is interesting that French is opinioned to be more lofty with insults than Spanish.  How do the Iberian languages compare amongst each other?


From what I've been reading, I suspect that Portuguese and Spanish are equally crude. And I've heard it from English-speaking expats that us Latin folk are dumb as a doorknob when it comes to sarcasm -- we tend to take it at all face value, and think they're just being mean (this was said without malice). 

On the other hand, to be honest, one thing that impressed me in these forums was the almost baroque, intricate refinement of some of the exchanges (or arguments, in a few cases) I read in Spanish. It feels almost like reading a nineteenth century novel, sometimes! It seems Portuguese speakers tend to more telegraphic and monochordic. Though that may be because there are fewer of us.


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## Mate

cuchuflete said:


> As two or more tenacious combatants exhange vollies, the native Spanish speakers, especially the better educated ones, tend to move from 'normal' speech patterns to a more elevated register.
> 
> 
> 
> I concur.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The BE speakers are usually better than the AE contingent, as it is part of their cultural tradition.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In that regard the same can be said referring to SP Spanish speakers compared to SA Spanish speakers.
Click to expand...

 
Mateamargo


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## elbeto

_Damas y caballeros. ¡Que placer leer sus opiniones! Es un deleite percibir un dejo de orgullo en lo que, en otro contexto, podría considerarse una autoacusación respecto de la incapacidad para ser asertivos. Es impresionante la argumentación presentada por cada uno de los participantes, tanto, que a la lectura de cada opinión, la propia se modifica otorgando una credibilidad casi irrestricta a los pensamientos allí plasmados. No puedo más que felicitarles por discutir con tal denuedo y cortesía. Solo quiero decir, para concluir mi participación, que el enriquecimiento de mi mente, obtenido a través de sus comentarios, es invaluable. Es mi más sincero deseo que esta discusión se prolonge lo suficiente como para permitirnos acrecentar nuestro acervo cultural hasta niveles jamás imaginados._

Not really, just giving a simple example. Want the short version for that?

_Me vale_.

I think is a matter of culture, more than language. See the first example above? Well, that's written by an ignorant... I believe a well educated person could acomplish much more than a "direct punch" in Spanish or any other language. I've seen it, I've heard it.


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## Chaska Ñawi

I don't know about now, especially since one Toronto defense lawyer last month offered to punch out a witness right in the courtroom, but Canadian courtrooms used to have wonderfully backstabbing dialogue with lots of ornate flourishes.

As the acrimony escalated, so did the courtesy.  "My friend" became "my learned friend"; "my esteemed colleague" did indeed put in an appearance; and one heard such statements as "My learned friend has, by some small oversight, neglected to mention the recorded fact that Mr. X was indeed on the premises on the night in question.  Upon a review of the facts, I am certain that he will bring his understanding to bear ....." and more of the same.

My late stepfather, meticulously polite in public and private, could nevertheless be wonderfully scathing in matters legal.  Occasionally I find myself channelling him in letters to banks and other institutions ....


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