# Forgive (Italian, Icelandic & English)



## Alxmrphi

Hi all,

Quick question, I can see the same meaning splits in these three languages, 2 morphemes, the first meaning "for" and the second "give", for example:

fyrir-gefa (for-give)
for-give (for-give)
per-donare (for-give)

Do these connections have a shared root going back to an earlier time or are they calques? If so, which language did the other two take it from? And a side-question: Do any other languages you know have this meaning and division with a word for 'for' and 'give' ?

Thanks


----------



## Kevin Beach

German is close: _Ver-geben_


----------



## miguel89

According to the OED, it's a calque from Latin.


> The modern sense of "to give up desire or power to punish" is from use of the compound as a Germanic loan-translation of L. perdonare (cf. O.S. fargeban, Du. vergeven, Ger. vergeben, Goth. fragiban; see pardon).


----------



## Fericire

In Portuguese it is: "Per-doar". Although nowadays "per" doesn't mean anything. It is "por" that means "for".
But in Old Portuguese, "per" means "for".

and "doar" means "to give".
edit.: actually, "to donate", but it may be used as "to give"


----------



## Alxmrphi

Fericire said:


> In Portuguese it is: "Per-doar". Although nowadays "per" doesn't mean anything. It is "por" that means "for".
> But in Old Portuguese, "per" means "for".
> 
> and "doar" means "to give".



Is it the same in Spanish, do you know?


----------



## Copperknickers

It's the same in Spanish as in Catalan: perdonar. It's the same in all Romance languages I think, with the possible exception of Romanian. It's just an inherited Latin construction, of course any language descended from Latin is going to use similar structures. The real question is do languages like Greek and Persian and Russian use it.


----------



## Claudiopolis

You are right about Romanian being the exception. In Romanian it's "a ierta", "iertare" from Lat. "libertare".


----------



## berndf

Alxmrphi said:


> Do any other languages you know have this meaning and division with a word for 'for' and 'give' ?


You are aware, that the prefix _for-_ (German _ver-_) and the preposition _for_ (German _für_) are unrelated in Germanic and is ultimately related with _fore_ (German _vor_)? The prefix expresses either a strengthening (e.g. English _forsake = to deny completely_) or a negative rendering of the verb (e.g. German _verfahren = go in the wrong direction_). The original Germanic meaning of Gothic _fragafan_, OE _forgiefan_, OHG _farkepan_ and OSaxon _fragiban_ is _to give up, to give away _(_=to give completely_). In German, _vergeben_ could also mean _to give in a wicked intend. _Derived from this meaning, it also meant _to poison_, in some areas until 100 years ago. Even in modern German, _vergeben_ has several different meanings unrelated to _perdonare_.

Hence, not the verb as such but only its restricted  interpretation as _to give up the desire for punishment_ as quoted by Miguel is a claque of VL _perdonare_.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> You are aware, that the prefix _for-_ (German _ver-_) and the preposition _for_ (German _für_) are unrelated in Germanic and is ultimately related with _fore_ (German _vor_)?


 
I don't know anything about German, so no I didn't know this.
I didn't know what the preposition would be or how it related to a prefix etc, but I do now 



> Hence, not the verb as such but only its restricted interpretation as _to give up the desire for punishment_ as quoted by Miguel is a claque of VL _perdonare_.


 
So it was the case that these verbs already existed and had different meanings before a comparison with _perdonare_? So they're not actually new calques that were created, but rather a new meaning was added to them?

I'm confused.


----------



## berndf

Alxmrphi said:


> So it was the case that these verbs already existed and had different meanings before a comparison with _perdonare_? So they're not actually new calques that were created, but rather a new meaning was added to them?




And in English it became the only meaning while in German some other meanings still exist.

PS: I think there is one context left in English where the original meaning _to give up, to give away_ is still transparent: _to forgive a debt_.


----------



## Alxmrphi

berndf said:


> And in English it became the only meaning while in German some other meanings still exist.


 
So can we have an educated guess about when this happened based around the remnants in other languages? Of course I know it's not scientific, all I mean is if there is enough stuff to look at to be able to guess reasonably? Before or after the split of the Germanic tribes?


----------



## berndf

Alxmrphi said:


> So can we have an educated guess about when this happened based around the remnants in other languages? Of course I know it's not scientific, all I mean is if there is enough stuff to look at to be able to guess reasonably? Before or after the split of the Germanic tribes?


According to GRIMM, keyword "VERGEBEN, _verb._", meaning "2d)", the meaning _to forgive something_ in the sense of to _forgive a sin_ can be traced back to Gothic:
_jah izvis dauþans visandans (in) missadedim .. miþ gaqivida miþ imma, *fragibands uns allos missadedins*.
_Colossians 2, 13.
For comparison I looked up the NIV and Vulgate versions of the verse:
_When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful  nature, God made you alive with Christ. *He forgave us all *our *sins*__.
et vos cum mortui essetis in delictis et praeputio carnis vestrae convivificavit cum *illo donans vobis** omnia delicta*._

This shows that Gothic_ fragiban_ was already used to translate Classical Latin _donare_ in the sense of _to forgive_. Hence the modern meaning as a figurative use of the verb is already quite old.

Concerning the development in English, the youngest quotation given in the OED for the sense _to give up_ is from 1564: _I can nocht forgif to do my sobir diligens in furderance of the kirk. _The oldest quotation in the sense of _to pardon_ is from 1000: _And forgyf us ure gyltas_. Hence the two meanings coexisted in English for at least half a millennium, quite probably considerably longer.


----------



## robbie_SWE

Copperknickers said:


> It's the same in Spanish as in Catalan: perdonar. It's the same in all Romance languages I think, with the possible exception of Romanian. It's just an inherited Latin construction, of course any language descended from Latin is going to use similar structures. The real question is do languages like Greek and Persian and Russian use it.





Claudiopolis said:


> You are right about Romanian being the exception. In Romanian it's "a ierta", "iertare" from Lat. "libertare".



Well, Romanian does have *a pardona* from French, but it's slightly archaic today. 

 robbie


----------



## merquiades

Alxmrphi said:


> I
> So it was the case that these verbs already existed and had different meanings before a comparison with _perdonare_? So they're not actually new calques that were created, but rather a new meaning was added to them?
> 
> I'm confused.



Interesting thread.  I noticed this similarity too. Sorry to complicate it more, but I was just wondering.... If it were indeed a calque wouldn't the English verb have had to be "*perdonate"?  Well, actually we do have "to pardon someone" which may rather be a calque from the French "pardonner" that does mean "forgive". Also for a new meaning to be given to the original germanic which meant "give away" wouldn't the average person have had to know Latin to be able to translate it and associate it to the already existing verb (assuming at least in English that the identification of for with fore was forgotten)? Perhaps the verb forgive/vergeben.. with the modern meaning just developed naturally? I guess I'm confused too.
Just to add something "perdonar una deuda" is possible too.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Copperknickers said:


> It's the same in Spanish as in Catalan: perdonar. It's the same in all Romance languages I think, with the possible exception of Romanian. It's just an inherited Latin construction, of course any language descended from Latin is going to use similar structures. The real question is do languages like Greek and Persian and Russian use it.



Russian: прост*и*ть (perfective), прощ*а*ть (imperfective), прощ*е*ние (noun). Прост*о*й means "simple". 
"Отпуст*и*ть" (pf.), "отпуск*а*ть" (impf.), which means "to release", "to relinquish" is sometimes used in relation to sins.
There is the verb извин*и*ть (pf.), извин*я*ть (impf.), which is constructed alike to Latin "excusare".


----------



## mav72

Hello everybody, I'm Mauro, a new entry:
About "forgive": isn't it that its root is in the meaning as "give as a gift"? (Ital: dare per/come dono). I think forgiving is an action someone does of his own will, with no obligation: just as a gift. 
I dunno in the other languages, maybe it is the same..


----------



## Alxmrphi

> .... If it were indeed a calque wouldn't the English verb have had to be "*perdonate"?


 
Hi merquis... no actually, it wouldn't, that would be a borrowing.
A calque is when you get something like a compound word in one language, you break it into its separate parts and translate the individual parts and then put it back together again. A good example is skyscraper, which is obviously made up of "sky" and "scraper".

In Italian there is a calque of it where "sky" is translated as "cielo" (normal) and "scraper" is translated as "gratta" (from _grattare_, to scrape/grate) then the calque ends up of "grattacielo". I see your native languages are Spanish and French so you'll recognise their calques too...

"_rasca-cielos_" / "_gratte-ciel_" 

English did borrow *pardon* though, originally from_* perdonare* (that's a borrowing)._
If you have foreign elements in your translation that aren't present in the other language, it can't be a calque.


----------



## bo-marco

In emilian too:
pardunàr=par-dunàr=for-give


----------



## Ben Jamin

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Russian: прост*и*ть (perfective), прощ*а*ть (imperfective), прощ*е*ние (noun). Прост*о*й means "simple".
> "Отпуст*и*ть" (pf.), "отпуск*а*ть" (impf.), which means "to release", "to relinquish" is sometimes used in relation to sins.
> There is the verb извин*и*ть (pf.), извин*я*ть (impf.), which is constructed alike to Latin "excusare".


 Are you sure that 'простить' is related to 'простой'? Have you found it in an etymological dictionary?


----------

