# Pronunciation of ayn ع/عين



## Jana337

A question for learners of Arabic who got the unfortunate sound right: HOW? 

For the time being, I either ignore it altogether, or I sound like I am in labor. 

Many thanks.

Jana


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## JLanguage

I believe Daniel can do the Ayn so you'll have to wait for him. I  bet a large number of those learning Arabic fail to accurately reproduce that sound.


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## elroy

You are right, Jonathan.  Most people drop it because they simply cannot reproduce it.  Quite a few learners, however, manage to produce it - or at least something tolerably close.

I would also be interested in what strategies and methods learners have used - so that I know how to answer people who want me to teach them how to pronounce it!


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## Josh_

I am a native English speaker but I have taught myself to pronounce the sound even though I'm sure it still isn't like a native. I have heard many explanations as to how to reproduce this sound but the best explanation I heard was that "if you sound like you are being strangled you will have mastered the 'voiced pharyngeal fricative'." -- Russell McGuirk from "A Colloquial Arabic of Egypt." McGuirk also says to try to swallow the sound 'ah'. I thought about that for a while and then came up with my own technique (although it has probably been used before, but I have never heard about it.

I think a better way to learn it (and this is how I finally got it) is to reduce your air flow by putting pressure on your throat with your hand, or, in essence, choking yourself.

Start by saying the sound 'ah' as in f_*a*_ther and then hold your open hand out in front of your face with the palm facing the floor -- in other words parallel with the floor. You will be looking at the profile of your index finger and your thumb. Now, while saying the sound 'ah' slowly move your hand towards your throat, above the Adam's Apple or below where the chin meets the neck. I imagine most who are reading this know how the 3een should sound like so, that said, when your hand reaches your throat keep pushing (slowly) until it sounds like you think it should. I looked at my profile in the mirror while doing this to try to judge how far I push my hand into my throat, but it is difficult to tell -- maybe anywhere from a half inch to an inch. 

Anyway, this is a good exercise just to get you familiar with producing the sound, the muscles that produce it, and what they need to do to produce it. Eventually, with enough practice, one should be able to produce the sound without choking him/herself. 

Using this technique try saying a few words, such as 3een (eye), 3ilba (box) or tin, 3ilaaqa (relation), or whatever. Produce the sound using the technique and then right before saying the rest of the word pull your hand away really fast so you can say the rest of the word.

I guess you can tell I have put a lot of thought into this.


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## elroy

Josh - amazing!  I tried your method and it seems to work.  However, I may be inclined to say ع the way I normally say it as a native speaker and assume that correlation means causation.   I'd be interested in hearing if it works for other learners on the forum.


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## cherine

Josh, the way you explain your method sounds fun, and SMART. I love it when people try new techniques to help themselves learn better.
Personally i've never imagined this letter was hard for non-native untill i heard it from a French friend of mind, who could never produce it. And that helped me understand better that some of the things that seem so "natural" for some of us, don't have to look the same for others.
Any way, good luck with your Arabic. And "chapeau" for the detailed explanation.


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## Whodunit

JLanguage said:
			
		

> I believe Daniel can do the Ayn so you'll have to wait for him. I bet a large number of those learning Arabic fail to accurately reproduce that sound.


 
I'm not sure if I can, but I definitely can produce it better than the qaf sound, which is a nightmare for me. 

Anyway, my method was to drop the jaw as far below as possible. When finished that face practice (), I tried to say the normal German long "a" (similar to the "a" in f*a*ther, but a bit closer to the u in m*u*m). It still sounds like a normal English "a" in my experience, so now comes the most difficult part: Try to bend the upper part of your lower lip over the incisors. Simultaneously, you have to touch your uvula with the tip of your tongue.

Sounds complicated but I come close to the sound Josh has described.


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## majlo

Would someone mind telling me what's the sound for *ع* ?

I cannot figure it out from the IPA sign.


Thank you in advance,
majlo


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## ayed

Have you ever heard the sound of she-sheep? 
B_*a'a'a'a'a'a*_


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## linguist786

It is hard to explain because it's not a sound that exists in English (and most other languages for that matter!). It is like a guttural vowel sound. We usually use the number 3 to transcribe it here on the forum.

I'm sure there is a website where they pronounce each letter of the Arabic letter for you. Have a look at the resources sticky.


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## majlo

I will.  Actually, I've visited a few websites from the thread, but so far I've only found pronunciation of the name of the letter, that is 'ayn.


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## HKK

The name of the letter starts with the sound


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## majlo

I know but that does not give me any clue.


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## Jagal

Maybe this'll help. When you get disgusted from something you may say "eew", right?. Or you may say "ya3" or "ya3i". Or just simply ask any Arabian person to pronounce it for you.


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## elroy

linguist786 said:


> It is like a guttural vowel sound.


 This is dangerous advice, because it's not a vowel sound.  The first step in learning how to pronounce it is to realize that it's a consonant. 


Jagal said:


> Maybe this'll help. When you get disgusted from something you may say "eew", right?. Or you may say "ya3" or "ya3i". Or just simply ask any Arabian person to pronounce it for you.


 That's not helpful because it's only Arabs that do that!   I made the same mistake when I tried to help a foreigner pronounce "7" by telling her that it's the sound in "a77" or "a77uuu" which is what you say when you're cold.  But of course, that's not what they say in all languages! 

*Moderator Note*: Majlo, I have merged this thread with a previous thread on the topic, one with posts that I trust will help you.  Please remember to perform a search before starting a new thread.


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## majlo

I know I should've searched before posting; that would've provided a lot of information. I'll do it next time.

To what more standard sound is the 3 similar? I'll try to pronounce it anyway.


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## Qcumber

ayed said:


> Have you ever heard the sound of she-sheep? B_*a'a'a'a'a'a*_


This is amusing. In the 1960s, my teacher, who was an Algerian ulema, advised me to begin by imitating a sheep, then he tuned me to the exact phone. Nowadays, when I have to quote a word that has it, native speakers say my pronunciation is correct, so his method was a good one. Baa.


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## suma

New learners must master this sound. It is very common and appears in many words.

Try finding sound clips on the net. The bleating of sheep comes close as does Josh's explanation of the choking sound. 

The first obstacle to overcome is to train the ear to discern the sound; often we don't even hear it and mispronounce it as hamzah.


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## mansio

A description of the 3ayn I found one day on the net: it is supposed to look like the sound of a car engine when you try to start it up by ten below zero.


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## HKK

I have Some clue... I treat it rather like a stop, that is, a sound which for an instant blocks All air from passing through your throat. And I don't think that's the right way: it sounds okay in the beginning of a word like 3ayn or 3alaykum, but doesn't work well e.g. in sa3uudi. 

Can you use a stop or does some air still have to pass?


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

suma said:


> New learners must master this sound. It is very common and appears in many words.
> 
> Try finding sound clips on the net. The bleating of sheep comes close as does Josh's explanation of the choking sound.
> 
> The first obstacle to overcome is to train the ear to discern the sound; often we don't even hear it and mispronounce it as hamzah.


It depends on who pronounces it. 
Iraqis,Bedwins and Maghrebis,prounounce it very hardly,and there's no way it can be heard like a hamza or any other letter.
Levantine people pronounce it very softly,and to my Maghrebi ears,it sounds more like an emphasised "a" than "3ayn".

Regarding my experience,There are many non-native Arabic learners in my university,and they all end up pronounced it correctly after a few mounth,while pronouncing "Qaf" correctly can take years!!


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

HKK said:


> I have Some clue... I treat it rather like a stop, that is, a sound which for an instant blocks All air from passing through your throat. And I don't think that's the right way: it sounds okay in the beginning of a word like 3ayn or 3alaykum, but doesn't work well e.g. in sa3uudi.
> 
> Can you use a stop or does some air still have to pass?



Well,I can't feel any stop while pronouncing it...I think it's a bad way to learn it,because as you say it works in the beginning of a word,but not in other cases...You should be able to say the word "sa3uudi" whithout any stop.What I can feel when saying this word is my throat vibrating when switching from the "a" to the "uu" of sa3uudi"


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## Qcumber

HKK said:


> Can you use a stop or does some air still have to pass?


It's not a stop; it's a fricative.


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## Lugubert

The way I learned it: "A hoarse 'theatre whisper', but voiced." Say a  ح , but engage your vocal chords.


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## palomnik

I had no problem with this sound. I had to learn to make the same sound when I sang in choir as a child. In order to avoid slurring the sounds when singing _melismas (_a string of notes on one syllable) in Gregorian Chant, I had to learn to use the _ayn_ sound to punctuate the transition from one note to the other. It sounds much better than using a glottal stop (which sounds choppy) or the _h _sound (which is OK when singing in a group but sounds as if you're laughing when singing solo). Students with some voice training will have an advantage.


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## Qcumber

I think part of the problem is due to its being represented by a single quotation mark in many Latin transcriptions as though it were not a consonant, but some secondary feature added to the vowel.


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## elroy

Qcumber said:


> I think part of the problem is due to its being represented by a single quotation mark in many Latin transcriptions as though it were not a consonant, but some secondary feature added to the vowel.


 Hear hear! 

Although in their defense, there's not really a Latin character that could faithfully represent it, so the choice would be pretty random.


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## Anatoli

Pity, in most transliterations of Arabic names, *`ayn* is simply missing, as if there is no consonant there: `Oman, `Iraq, Sa`udi `Arabia; `Amman, San`a. Single or backquote is better than nothing at all, IMHO.

In Somali language the ﻉ is represented simply by letter C, if some diacritics were added to the letter (Ċ - C with a dot above), it could serve as a Roman letter for `ayn, like Ġ (G with a dot above) serves to represent ﻍ
What do you think: *Ċiraq, Ċuman, Saċudi Ċarabiyya*? (if you can see the character correctly). A bit unusual?

I find it difficult to pronounce `ayn at the end of a word, e.g in "shari`" - street.


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## HKK

That may be a problem for people who aren't interested in Arabic, but we learned very soon that the 3ayn is a sound to be reckoned with 

By the way, in casual transcriptions, there isn't even a sign of 3ayn. Same for ghayn in Dutch: we write Bagdad.

The "voiced 7aa" doesn't sound right at all to me. But these things help, better than the "sheep sound" hints (In Dutch a sheep just says Baaaa, or something like Bahahaa). How about: a voiced near-hamza / a ghayn but even deeper and without vibration of the tongue / ...?


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## Qcumber

Anatoli said:


> Pity, in most transliterations of Arabic names, *`ayn* is simply missing, as if there is no consonant there: `Oman, `Iraq, Sa`udi `Arabia; `Amman, San`a. Single or backquote is better than nothing at all, IMHO.


ElRoy, Anatoli, it goes without saying that I was deploring this in scholarly publications, not in newpapers.
By the way, for my own research I use <ĥ> to transcribe <ع>, e.g. 
ĥain aš šams عين الشمس


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## Nunty

My teacher told us to constrict our throat. The result is very much like Josh's recommendation. 

Take heart, Jana. I don't know if I sound like I'm in labor, but I usually have the impression that I'm swallowing my tongue. Sometimes I get it right at the beginning of a word, but rarely at the end. Whenever my teacher tells me I got it right I'm always too shocked to remember what I've just done.


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## mansio

Anatoli said:


> In Somali language the ﻉ is represented simply by letter C, if some diacritics were added to the letter (Ċ - C with a dot above), it could serve as a Roman letter for `ayn, like Ġ (G with a dot above) serves to represent ﻍ
> What do you think: *Ċiraq, Ċuman, Saċudi Ċarabiyya*? (if you can see the character correctly). A bit unusual?



Anatoli

That's exactly the transcription I use personally. 
I write the 3ayn as "c" because that letter has otherwise no use in transcription and because it looks like the Arabic letter. 
Another reason is that it derives from the quotation mark/reverse apostrophe used by scholars except that it is written on the same line as the others letters.
I didn't know that the Somali language had the same symbol.


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## Anatoli

I wonder if I can request recordings of some files containing ع.

The sounds causes a lot of difficulty to foreign learners. One native speaker said I was 80% correct when saying some words with `ayn.  That's not good enough, I need 100%. 

I have no confidence when saying it in the final position like shaari` - شارع. For some reason, it's also easier for me to pronounce e.g.  عمان (`Umaan) than عراف (`Iraaq). Maybe because it's a bit harder when `ayn is followed by an "i' (ee) sound.


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## elroy

I am attaching my pronunciations of شارع and عمان and العراق.

I hope this helps.


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## Anatoli

Thanks a lot, Elias! 

I am sure this will help others in this thread as well!
(I haven't listened to the audio yet, I'll copy the files onto my mobile phone aka mp3 player and listen on the way home).


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

After hearing your recording elias,I'm 100% conforted in my idea that "3ayn" is very different depending on the region.Your " 3ayn" is to my ears VERY soft.


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## Anatoli

Tariq_Ibn_zyad, have you got a microphone?


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## elroy

I was going to say the same thing. 

It would be interesting to compare pronunciations.


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## HKK

This thread is very interesting! Elroy, your sound file was nice to hear after the many horror stories about strangling oneself and exploring the inner sheep  Just like in Ka3boul (if you remember), I found the 3 in Al-3iraq very hard to distinguish.

Is it a hassle to use the microphone? Otherwise I'd like to make a little request too Or maybe for another fluent microphone-owner: a "minimal pair" with hamza and 3ayn, two words between which only these sounds are the difference. If it exists... Thanks!


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## elroy

It's not too much hassle, but the problem is that there is a limit to the number of kilobytes a user can attach.  Nevertheless, I think this recording is small enough to be within the limits, but I don't think I'll be able to attach any others.

In this one I pronounce the minimal pair علم and ألم.  I trust you'll be able to tell which is which.


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## HKK

Thank you for the trust you place in me  It's clear indeed, thanks.


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## Anatoli

Thank you, Elias for recording and posting the audio files. I can hear `ayn clearly but I am not so good and imitating it exactly. I'll practice a bit more.


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## Nunty

Yes, thank you, Elias. I'll be practicing with the files, too!


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## DrLindenbrock

I agree with most of what you guys said... but it would be hard to quote anyone, so please feel free to see your contribution throughout these lines even if I do not acknowledge it explicitely!  After all, what is in forum is shared knowledge anyway!  
I think the method my Arabic grammar (in Italian, the first one I used) suggested to learn how to pronounce 3ayn is very close to Josh's method.
But in the end, the book's explanation wasn't very clear for me, especially because it told us to basically pronounced a voiced 7aa2! Although I've read enough stuff to know that this is correct linguistically, it just doesn't make sense to my ears...  
So, my method essentially consisted in listening to my lecturers and watching al-Jazeera television, and trying to imitate them!  
I think that by now I can at least pronounce something that is - in Elroy's words - tolerably close to 3ayn.
And as Anatoli suggested, there are some occurences of 3ayn which are easier to pronounce that others.
I think it is an ascertained fact that 3ayn is easier to pronounce when followed by a fat7a than when followed by a kasra or a Damma. 
If you guys wish we could discuss this further... I realise this is not the purpose of this thread.
Anyway, I think I get it pretty good in words like 3amal, 3ayn, 3uyuun, isti3maal, a little less well in words like 2usbuu3, shaari3, and definitely in a poor way in 3inaB, 3iraaq, 3umq ... I guess there are some general conclusion on this, i.e. an initial 3ayn followed by fatHa seems to be pretty easy for me, whereas... well, I'll let the examples I made speak for me.  
Lastly, I agree with Whodunit... although 3ayn is a sound I - as an Italian and English speaker - had never encountered before, after a month or two I think I was able to imitate well enough to make it clear that was what I was pronouncing (of course, there's no way I could seem like a native), but I think other sounds are much harder - at least for me.
An MSA qaaf is definitely the hardest - I really have to concentrate to pronounce it in a single word, but when speaking "quickly" it basically just sounds like a "weird" kaaf. 
Then, there's ghayn (3'ayn), which I probably get well enough, but still gives me some problems.
So, for me, the degree of difficulty is as follows:
1 - qaaf
2 - 3ayn
3 - ghayn

All, this is finally the end of my post... I realise I talked about me and my way of learning 3ayn, but I felt this was what Jana, Elroy and the rest of you were mostly interested in.
See you around,
Have a nice day (or morning or evening or night, choose what applies to you )


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## elroy

Since Cherine's "quick, off-topic note" blossomed into a little discussion, we now have a new thread:

Arabic غ vs. French r

Please restrict your comments in this thread to ones about the pronunciation of the letter ع. Thanks.


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## Bilbo Baggins

*Mod note:*
*I merged this new thread to the older one to avoid repetitions. Please don't forget that the forum rules require that we search the forum for older thread before starting new ones.*
*Thanks.*

How would you describe the proper pronunciation of _ayn_. According to my materials, ayn, independently, makes a sound similar to an animal call (no offense....but that's how it sounds to me) and when it's in words, it's hard for me to really pick up on its proper pronunciation. It seems that ayn actually has a slight range within it. Any thought? Thanks!


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## ayed

Welcome , Bilbo Baggins..
The best way to acquire these sounds is to listen too much to Audio clips ..
I recorded the sound "ayen". Click on the following link and listen..
I hope this could help you...

http://www.fileshost.com/en/file/5678/ayen-zip.html


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## Alchemy

Wow, that is really different to how I've interpreted descriptions on how to pronounce it. What a unique sound.

Could you write down (transliteration) what's being said on the clip?

Thanks.


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## ayed

Just click on the clip and look at the following words
*عين ، عا، عا
مزارع - مزرعه -شارع-سبعه-عمرو-عين*


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## Sidjanga

My experience is that the basic thing is to push/press the lowest point possible of the back of your tongue against the back wall of your throat (it helped me a great deal when I read in _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ (by David Crystal) that this is the actual point of friction, for ع as well as for ح).
For some reason, you get to read and hear loads of rather vague indications all over, at times quite entertaining, like the one from the Wikipedia about ع, which recommends singing the lowest tone you can master within your personal register, and then one lower... (the result is at least interesting).

I think the "swollow the [a:]" advice is also rather useful*, and I reckon that that one in combination with "the lowest point possible of the back of your tongue pushed/pressed against the back of your throat" should work fine for most people [prepared to invest a bit of patience and dedication].

____________
* without having read or heard about it before, that was actually (a bit) the impression I had whe I had the feeling I had (basically) "got there".


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## bcrich6

The way I'm learning to prounounce it is like the Haa', but vocalized.
I take my tongue, and just pull it back, then say "aaaaahhhhh".
I get the Haa', but with my vocal cords vibrating. I was always told this was the right way, but please correct me if i'm wrong.


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## vega3131

majlo said:


> I cannot figure it out from the IPA sign.



ع [  ʕ], ض [  dˤ], غ [  ɣ]

All Arabic sounds are listed in IPA site


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## berndf

Yesterday I pronounced عربية and a Syrian colleague said I said [ʢara'bi:ja] whereas I should have said [ʕara'bi:ja]. I am aware of the two variants (plus [ʔˤ], but that is a totally different matter); what surprised my is that he said it was a matter of context, you wouldn't use [ʢ] in front of an [r]. I always thought this were an issue of dialectal of even free variation. Is there in Standard Arabic some logic behind whether you pronounce ع pharyngeal or epiglottal?


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## clevermizo

That's interesting. I don't think whether it is truly epiglottal or truly pharyngeal is context-specific. I think it's mostly idiosyncratic, as well as region or dialect-specific. However in most contexts it sounds more pharyngeal than epiglottal to me, but to be honest I sometimes have a hard time distinguishing between the two.

My guess is that your Syrian colleague heard something "off" about your epiglottal ع and corrected that to the way he normally pronounces ع. This might be different were you to talk to someone of different regional or dialect origin.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I would also be interested in what strategies and methods learners have used - so that I know how to answer people who want me to teach them how to pronounce it!


I use a strategy which probably only for speakers of a language knowing the French "r": I position the tongue like for an "r" but place the point where I press the back of the tongue against the back of the throat a few centimeters deeper. To pronounce the varieties I am aware of, I pronounce [ʕ] with a straight neck and I sense the resonance of the vocal cords at the back of my throat. The [ʢ] I pronounce with my neck slightly bend forward so I sense the resonance at the epiglottis, i.e. at the front of my throat. For the plosive variant [ʔˤ] I position my tongue like for [ʕ] and then pronounce [ʔ].

The attached files are my attempt to pronounce [ʕ]="ayin1.mp3", [ʢ]="ayin2.mp3" and [ʔˤ]="ayin3.mp3".


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## WadiH

Okay I'm a bit confused here -- are we talking about ع or غ?  Because you titled your clips "ayin" but they all sounded like attempts at غ (ghayn).  Some of the Wikipedia clips that Wikipedia claims represent the Arabic "ayn" sound more like "ghayn" as well


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## berndf

Do they? I would pronounce غ like this. Do I get it all confused?


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## WadiH

To my (unsophisticated) ear, all four of these clips fall under a big category called "ghayn."

I've tried uploading a couple of clips for you, but it hasn't worked out (Sorry!).


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## berndf

Thank you for your feed back. It is certainly my fault. For me as a German these letters are basically variants of my language's "r" sound. I might miss some crucial distinctions. Let me try to say [ع] in the context of a word; that is often easier than saying it in isolation. This is my attempt to say  [ʕara'bi:ja]. Is that better?


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## WadiH

Now that sounds like a 'ayn.


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## berndf

Pooh! I am relieved. This happens if you want to try to be too perfect, you get it all wrong. I have noticed this with phoneme samples from various places. They never sound right. It is always better to use entire words.

Thank you for your help. Is is much appreciated.


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## WadiH

My pleasure.


clevermizo said:


> That's interesting. I don't think whether it is truly epiglottal or truly pharyngeal is context-specific. I think it's mostly idiosyncratic, as well as region or dialect-specific. However in most contexts it sounds more pharyngeal than epiglottal to me, but to be honest I sometimes have a hard time distinguishing between the two.



Would you be so kind as to create a couple of ع clips for us, one "pharyngeal" and the other "epiglottal?"  Preferably as part of actual words perhaps ?


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## clevermizo

Sure, I'll do my best. But as I said, I sometimes have a hard time telling them apart (similar to the difference between a uvular غ and a velar غ). In an audio clip this may be exacerbated.

عَ، ــَعَ [pharyngeal] [epiglottal]
عين [pharyngeal] [epiglottal]
تعال [pharyngeal] [epiglottal]
شارع [pharyngeal] [epiglottal]

Saying تعال with an epiglottal ع was very difficult for me. Also with شارع I don't think a difference comes across much.


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## WadiH

Thanks, Mizo.  I hope that wasn't too much trouble.  I wasn't really able to tell the difference.  I've resorted to just "feeling" my vocal cords with my hands, and based on that I suspect the pharyngeal is closer to how I pronounce it.


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## clevermizo

Yes, I think the distinction can't really be phonemic in any language, much like velar or uvular غ. They sound too close for the listener. You can tell it's different when you make the sound because you can feel different parts of your throat working. I always pronounce it pharyngeally, because it's easier on my throat muscles.

Anyway, I have a feeling this is the sort of thing that may actually be at the person to person level of variation more so than regional or dialectal differences.


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## WadiH

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a "voiced pharyngeal fricative" and a "pharyngeal glottal stop?"


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## berndf

A fricative is a sound where the air is pressed through a narrow channel producing grating or hissing sounds. Stops or plosives are sound produced by completely blocking the airflow and building up of pressure followed by a sudden release. Plosives can be implosive or explosive but Semitic (and IE) languages do not have implosives, hence stop and explosive can be treated as synonym in this context. Here you can find a list of plosives and fricatives in Arabic.

A "glottal stop" is a Hamza. In my understanding, "pharyngeal glottal stop" is a sound which starts like a Hamza and ends like an 3ayn.


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## WadiH

Thanks, Bernd.

I am aware of the difference between fricatives and stops generally, but I'm having trouble "pharyngealizing" my glottal stops without them turning into fricatives in the process.  Perhaps I don't know how to "pharyngealize" properly, but I am skeptical about Wikipedia's claim that the Arabic 3ayn is a "pharyngealized glottal stop" simply because, when I produce the 3ayn, the point of articulation is at all times significantly lower than the point of articulation of my glottal stops.


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## clevermizo

I have a feeling that these claims are based on analysis of actual waveform spectra for the sounds. However in "real life" it may be difficult to perceive a difference between the alleged "pharyngealized glottal stop" and a "pharyngeal fricative". In other words, although speakers may reproducibly generated "pharyngealized glottal stops" as opposed to "pharyngeal fricatives" based upon frequency analysis, without a computer one might find it hard to identify.

You can easily look at the waveform of a sound and tell if it is fricative or plosive by its shape. The fricative is characterized by many multiple peaks and a stop has a clear peak which is the "burst".

Also note that _all stops_ have a glottal stop as their component. A glottal stop is simply the most basic kind of stop (no air passes, air passes) that one can produce. All other stops are built upon it. For example, when I produce /p/ or /b/ I must also produce a glottal stop, because that's where the air comes from in the first place. Similarly all fricatives have  as their component, because the air must be passing through the larynx in order to be modified in the mouth or elsewhere. If you create a fricative without doing anything with your tongue, teeth, etc., you will create .

I also don't understand what you mean by your 3ayin's being pronounced "lower" than your glottal stops. The larynx is as low as you can go.  The pharynx is above it. Maybe by articulation you mean "tongue"? The tongue is not involved in the production of glottals. Your tongue must be pulled back and down to produce pharyngeals, so maybe that's why you think of pharyngeals as "lower". The only thing you need to produce glottals are a good set of vocal cords. 

What pharyngealized glottal stop means is that with your tongue pulled back near the pharynx, you produce a stop consonant in your vocal chords. It's not a "pharyngeal stop" because you're not actually stopping air at your pharynx. When I pronounce 3ayin it does sound more to me like this than a fricative. In other words, if I were to take my tongue out of the picture, would I be pronouncing  or [ʔ (2)]?

To test this out yourself, start pronouncing the sequence [3a] prolonged. Then slowly bring your tongue out of your pharynx, relaxing it. If you hear [ha] then what you were pronouncing (underlying) was a fricative. If you here [a] then what you were pronouncing (underlying) was a stop (because all vowels begin with a glottal stop since the air originates in the vocal cords).

It's also important to dissociate "glottal stop" here from the actual consonant phoneme in Arabic ء. "Glottal stop" might be easier understood as the barrier between "no sound" and "sound".


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## berndf

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I am aware of the difference between fricatives and stops generally, but I'm having trouble "pharyngealizing" my glottal stops without them turning into fricatives in the process. Perhaps I don't know how to "pharyngealize" properly, but I am skeptical about Wikipedia's claim that the Arabic 3ayn is a "pharyngealized glottal stop" simply because, when I produce the 3ayn, the point of articulation is at all times significantly lower than the point of articulation of my glottal stops.


After the discussion we had here I now very much doubt all the text-book identification of the point of articulation of 3ayn and ghain -- and hamzah for that matter. According to Tajweed rules the point of articulation of hamzah is supposed to be deeper than that of 3ayn (click).


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## WadiH

clevermizo said:


> I also don't understand what you mean by your 3ayin's being pronounced "lower" than your glottal stops. The larynx is as low as you can go.  The pharynx is above it. Maybe by articulation you mean "tongue"? The tongue is not involved in the production of glottals. Your tongue must be pulled back and down to produce pharyngeals, so maybe that's why you think of pharyngeals as "lower".



Yes, I think that's the reason.  Either that or I'm dyslexic.   Sorry about that.



> What pharyngealized glottal stop means is that with your tongue pulled back near the pharynx, you produce a stop consonant in your vocal chords. It's not a "pharyngeal stop" because you're not actually stopping air at your pharynx. When I pronounce 3ayin it does sound more to me like this than a fricative. In other words, if I were to take my tongue out of the picture, would I be pronouncing  or [ʔ (2)]?
> 
> To test this out yourself, start pronouncing the sequence [3a] prolonged. Then slowly bring your tongue out of your pharynx, relaxing it. If you hear [ha] then what you were pronouncing (underlying) was a fricative. If you here [a] then what you were pronouncing (underlying) was a stop (because all vowels begin with a glottal stop since the air originates in the vocal cords).




I'm getting more [a]'s than [ha]'s when I do this (although I don't think I'm a reliable judge on this).  But if my ع is a stop, then I wonder how one would produce a pharyngeal fricative.  What happens if I just go: عععععععععععععععععععععع?


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## clevermizo

Well you can get [ha]'s you just have to produce a lot of ع noise, really heavily. Perhaps like the sound of a bleating ram. Try doing عععععععععععععععع if you can. altough I have a feeling it will mostly come out عـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــا because ععععععععععععععععععععع seems rather difficult for me (although I'm non-native).

Remember that if it is truly a pharyngealized glottal stop, that's basically a fancy way of saying that it starts out as a stop, and then is mostly a pharyngeal-coloring of the vowel itself. So most of the milliseconds of duration of عَ is spent actually pronouncing [a] with a pharyngeal coloration. The "stop" quality is just at the beginning when you are making a break between the start of the sound and whatever came before it (either nothing or another word or sound).

I recommend trying this exercise with other consonants to further understand the underlying mechanism of your muscles. For example, you can easily hold out شششششششششششششش . While doing that, and trying as hard as you can to keep everything else constant, slowly bring your tongue down from the roof of the mouth to resting position. This should result in ههههههههههههههههههههههه.

My guess is that ع can be a stop, or a fricative, or even an approximant or just a pharyngeally pronounced vowel, and that this distinction is not phonemic, but rather idiosyncratic or perhaps depending on phonetic context and environment of other sounds. Arabic only has two pharyngeal sounds, ع and ح. There's no mistake that ح is a fricative, but the main contrast between the two is voice. As long as ع is pharyngeal and voiced, it's really the only sound like it in its class - therefore the need to properly distinguish between fricative, stop, or approximant erodes because it's unnecessary. So the speaker does whatever is easiest or natural at that moment. However with other consonants, changing the manner of articulation can alter meaning and so it's important to make sure that ك is a stop and خ is a fricative.


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## WadiH

Yes, I can say عععععععععععععععععع.  When I try to take my tongue out of the process, I end up with [aaaaaaaa] instead of [hhhhhhhhh], but that's just a function of of ع being voiced, isn't it?  Anyway, I can see now that there isn't much to differentiate between the two.  Thanks.


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## vaftrudner

Hi there!

I have worked for a long time on my 3ayn as well, and if you would be so kind, I would be happy to get some feedback. I've recorded the following to try 3ayn in different positions, including doubling which I find really challenging:

"شعرها مجعد. أحب الطعام في ذلك المطعم. هذه الشوارع بشعة"

I'd appreciate your comments!


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## clevermizo

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Yes, I can say عععععععععععععععععع.  When I try to take my tongue out of the process, I end up with [aaaaaaaa] instead of [hhhhhhhhh], but that's just a function of of ع being voiced, isn't it?.



Well yes in a way, but you might have fricative "noise" due to the _voiced_ version of , the sort of heavy breathy murmur or humming noise. In IPA this is represented by [ɦ]. For example if I pronounce the French _j_ or Levantine ج and slowly remove my tongue, I should have [ɦɦɦɦɦɦɦɦɦ] humming or buzzing sound. This is a voiced .


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## Johnohecto

I have always wondered. I am unsure about this. Because when you think about it Ayn is just a "raspier" version of all the vowels depending on the context. But then again, Arabic is an abjad and I don't know what to make of this. Please answer my question: Is Ayn a consonant or a vowel?


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## Levinsky

Definitely a consonant. Just like hamzah is a consonant.
I think it is exactly the same as ح except that it is voiced while ح is unvoiced. Other than that, they are identical and form a voiced-unvoiced pair, like خ/غ and ث/ذ.


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## elroy

Levinsky said:


> Definitely a consonant. Just like hamzah is a consonant.
> I think it is exactly the same as ح except that it is voiced while ح is unvoiced. Other than that, they are identical and form a voiced-unvoiced pair, like خ/غ and ث/ذ.


 Absolutely right. 

Non-native learners who expect to master this sound perceptually and articulatorily need to completely abandon the idea that it has anything to do with vowels.


Johnohecto said:


> Because when you think about it Ayn is just a "raspier" version of all the vowels depending on the context.


 No it's not.  This is completely flawed.


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## Johnohecto

elroy said:


> No it's not.  This is completely flawed.


 I might have thought that because Ayn is almost always followed by a vowel as far as I know. A consonant cluster including an ayn is something that I have never heard of.


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## Ghabi

How about words like bu3d, ba3D, Sa3b, da3m?


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## Johnohecto

Of all those, I only know to ba3D. Didn't think of that. It makes sense, however. I guess it's because I pronounce the D as a syllable of its own. But if Ayn and Ha are the same voiced and unvoiced. What about Ghayn? Does it have an unvoiced equivalent?


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## elroy

The unvoiced counterpart of غ is خ, but I don't see how that's relevant to the linguistic classification of ع.

ع appears in the same phonological environments as other consonants; as Ghabi demonstrated, it does appear in consonant clusters.  Furthermore, even if it _were_ only followed or only preceded by vowels, that wouldn't mean that it wasn't a consonant.

It's a consonant for the plain and simple reason that it matches the linguistic definition of "consonant" and not that of "vowel."


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## Johnohecto

elroy said:


> The unvoiced counterpart of غ is خ, but I don't see how that's relevant to the linguistic classification of ع.


 It might not. I only assumed so because the letter is derived from Ayn so the old Arabs clearly thought the sounds sounded related. Thanks for the answer, though.  





elroy said:


> appears in the same phonological environments as other consonants; as Ghabi demonstrated, it does appear in consonant clusters. Furthermore, even if it _were_ only followed or only preceded by vowels, that wouldn't mean that it wasn't a consonant.


 I know that now. Keep in mind that I only asked that I was unsure whether Ayn was a consonant or not and sought clarification, not that I postulated that it was _not_ a consonant. Though I thank everyone for that clarification. 

As for consonant clusters, I consider the /ɯ/ to be a vowel and I am pretty sure it is that release of air between every consonant, so that might have been why I regarded Ayn to be a raspier version of all the vowels. If it was situated in consonant clusters, I would have assumed that it was a raspier version of "ㅡ" instead of a consonant. Not that it is to be defended, but justified for my mistaken belief.


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## Interprete

Johnohecto said:


> It might not. I only assumed so because the letter is derived from Ayn so the old Arabs clearly thought the sounds sounded related.


What you wrote just made me realize that ح is voiceless, and its voiced counterpart is ع
Now if you add a dot to those two letters, you get another pair with a voiceless consonant (خ) and its voiced counterpart (غ)
So the old Arabs were very logical 

On a sidenote, I wonder if the significant differences in the way 3ayn is pronounced from one region to another should be taken into account. I have noticed that Gulf dialects have a much stronger/deeper 3ayn than Levantine and Egyptian, for example.


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## Hemza

Interprete said:


> On a sidenote, I wonder if the significant differences in the way 3ayn is pronounced from one region to another should be taken into account. I have noticed that *Gulf dialects have a much stronger/deeper* 3ayn than Levantine and Egyptian, for example.



The same goes with the Maghreb. I noticed it while being around Egyptians, our ع is much stronger than theirs.


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