# みる, 歌ってみた



## Tom Greenhill

皆さんこんにちは,

I just had a question with the phrases like 歌ってみた (singing), 踊ってみた (dancing) and 演奏してみた (playing musical instruments). They are usually seen at ニコニコ動画 in videos' title and tag, indicating the nature of a video. So what exactly does it mean by 歌ってみた?

Is it true that the -てみた part is for 試しにやってみた, where the origin of み is "見"?
And is this the case that 歌ってみた means "(I) tried sining (this song)"?
Also, is this -てみた expression a common way to be polite while saying "I've done something" in daily Japanese?

ありがとうございます！


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## mthachigatsu

Hi,
I don't know the origin of み is 見, but yes these みs include a meaning of "just tried doing it".
It is common.

I don't think many people use "歌った。" or "踊った。" for video title. 
It is difficult to explain it... anyway, we use てみた in such cases. 

To say "I've done something", both 歌ってみた and 歌った are gramatically fine. It depends on situation.
歌ってみた is casual.
To be polite, 歌ってみた wil be 歌ってみました。


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## frequency

That みる is hojo dōshi, 補助動詞.
みる jisho org (5)
You know the combination of two verbs, such as try+singing and start+singing. That 歌ってみる is quite similar to it (might be almost the same in function).

That み can't be stand-alone. Don't separate it. The dictionary form みる has jodōshi た, みた.


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## Flaminius

The intent of 歌ってみる (> 歌ってみた) is to do something and see its effects.  They may be the outcome of hitting some obscure button (「押してください」と書かれたボタンを押してみたら、ワニが降ってきた) or finding one’s taste (このケーキ、食べてみたらとても美味しかった).

In the context of showing one’s performance to the whole world, the meaning of seeing the effects is to expect good reviews.  The plain past form, 歌った, is complete in itself and has little nuance of inviting judgments.

Inviting judgment is a gesture of humility in other less competitive contexts.  So yes, this construction is loaded with politeness: I did it, maybe it’s not the best way you like it.


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## Tom Greenhill

皆さんありがとう！

And Flaminius, thank you so much for mentioning the "see its effects" issue!!

That was being exactly my confusion. My classmate argued that it relates to the nuanced meaning of "trying to do something and seeing how it works", so he conclude the み is actually 見. But I doubted if み by itself has any real 'function' at all when used for "trying" (as mentioned by frequency).

So as native speakers, could you please tell me how do you perceive the みる expression?

Do Japanese people spontaneously relates the verb みる to the concept of "seeing (見~/観~/視~/看~)" even if it was used for "trying (= 試し)", and hence subconsciously integrating them to make it "try and see if it works / try and see how it works"?


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## frequency

Tom Greenhill said:


> Do Japanese people spontaneously relates the verb みる to the concept of "seeing (見~/観~/視~/看~)"


Almost yes and likely. I don't think you're wrong.
「みる」という語には本来「見る」という意味がありますが，Bではその本来の意味が薄れ、・・・



> "try and see if it works / try and see how it works"


If you want to say this, say 試して（、どうなるか）見よう。This sounds like you're doing trial and error, for example. This kanji version 見よう is usually taken as a usual verb, not hojo dōshi. I like adding どうなるか, because this way clearly can avoid sounding 試してみる.

Be careful that 試してみる doesn't mean "to try and see". It's just "to try" or "to give it a try".


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## Contrafibularity

Tom Greenhill said:


> So as native speakers, could you please tell me how do you perceive the みる expression?
> 
> Do Japanese people spontaneously relates the verb みる to the concept of "seeing (見~/観~/視~/看~)" even if it was used for "trying (= 試し)", and hence subconsciously integrating them to make it "try and see if it works / try and see how it works"?


As a native speaker, I personally don't see so much the concept of seeing in the construction 〜てみる.  　歌ってみた means you sang a song tentatively/casually/for a change.    
Also, I don't see much politeness in the construction either.   The gist of popular 〜てみた videos at sites like Niconico is that they did something tentatively and did it so well, way beyond the amateur level (otherwise they wouldn't have gained much popularity).   If we adopted the "see its effects/see how it works" function, 歌ってみた would mean "I did something and _saw_ its effects", which is odd because its effects _are going to be seen after the video is posted_.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I have the same opinion that ~~してみる has originally the connotation of ”do and see its effects." In other words, it is "do and check" in PDCA cycle (plan-do-check-act cycle). I think it was して見る originally.
Logically or philosophically speaking, "*trying something*" must be judged afterwords as success or failure, good or bad. Some assessments must be accompanied afterwords. Right?

However, as other members already mentioned, the original connotation might have gone.
I think it can be a modest expression. It's a kind of politeness.
"Trying something" leaves the possibility that turned out to be bad/wrong/negative.
The speaker seems less confident to do it, and it appeals the "*modesty*."

ゴルゴ１３, a very famous fictitious sniper who can murder the targets 100%, always says "やってみよう" when he contracts a murder/assassination.
This expression is a kind of virtue; he is confident in himself but expresses uncertainty in order to be modest.

In the context you said （ニコニコ動画）, it means something like "I just sang it, although I was not a professional singer or although I hadn't practiced it perfectly or although I don't know you like it."　
It has now become a kind of a set phrase.


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## Flaminius

What we see (_miru_) is not limited to the objects of the visual sense.  We “see” the taste (塩を分量より少なく入れて、味をみる) and more or less abstract things such as attitudes (わざと高い値段を言って、お客さんの反応をみる); and we even mean protections by “seeing” (子供を見ているから、買い物に行ってらっしゃい).

Like the first two examples, these senses can be used in the context of seeing the effects of an action.  I would say that forms like;
入れてみた
言ってみた
can be used in sentences that expect reactions from others after the actions are complete.  As 塩を少なく入れてみたけど、味はどう? tests the salt’s effect on the taster’s tongue, so 歌ってみた places judgment upon the performance.  I might also note in passing that ケーキ作ってみたんだけど、食べない? can be uttered when the baker believes that they made a great piece of cockery in good confidence.  Presenting oneself less confident is not dishonesty but a tinge of self-deprecation.  Why does one need the display of self-deprecation?  Because it prevents one from looking over-confident and boastiful, which are against the politeness codes of the Japanese spociety.  [I am aware that English is not lacking in expressions like “I suppose so,” “I would say,” “I think,” with which people present themselves less assertive and more humble before authority figures than before other jacks and betties.]

Uploading something that has been done tentatively but turned out well; this does not sound genuine.  I would sense behind these self-uploads hours of practice and tens of takes and retakes.  Displaying one’s cool for one’s best performance seems to be part of the YouTube and Niconico cultures.  There we go.  Where there is a gap between the action and what’s said about it, there is a room for politeness and other things.  They are, I mind you all, incongruent words but not dishonest activities.


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## Contrafibularity

Flaminius said:


> I would say that forms like;
> 入れてみた
> 言ってみた
> can be used in sentences that expect reactions from others after the actions are complete.


Yes, they can be but it wholly depends on context.  You could just as easily say 塩を少なく入れてみたけど、美味しくなかった or ケーキ作ってみたんだけど、失敗した without asking for others' judgement.   Likewise, 歌ってみた is a completed action and does not invite judgement by itself.  It is the act of uploading a video that invites judgement, and only then we know we are being asked to judge it.



Flaminius said:


> Uploading something that has been done tentatively but turned out well; this does not sound genuine. I would sense behind these self-uploads hours of practice and tens of takes and retakes.


It doesn't matter whether those video posters spent millions of hours taking and retaking their video, or they did it in one take.   The gist is the gap between their tentative tone and the quality of their performance, which has created one prominent genre.   And what I really don't get is how _politeness_ enters into the discussion here.   Is saying 歌ってみた _in any way more polite_ than saying 歌った？ Or is ケーキ作ってみたけど、食べない？ _in any way_ _more polite_ than ケーキ作ったけど、食べない？   The 〜てみた form adds to what you did some tentativeness, or modesty if you like, but no politeness as far as I'm concerned.


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## Flaminius

Contrafibularity said:


> Or is ケーキ作ってみたけど、食べない？ _in any way_ _more polite_ than ケーキ作ったけど、食べない？


Yes.  The more formal the context is, the more preferred the former is.

If tentativeness or modesty is often seen in conversations with those with higher social clout than you have, tentativeness or modesty is required out of codes of politeness.


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## Contrafibularity

I still disagree, Flaminius, and I'm afraid you are overgeneralizing.   There are cases where tentativeness in the てみた form does not signify politeness even on formal occasions.  For instance:  

上司：頼んでた仕事、やってくれた？
あなた：はい、昨日*やりました*。／はい、昨日*やってみました*。

Undoubtedly, やりました is more appropriate a reply than やってみました, because you should not be tentative where you should be assertive.   Saying やってみました can even be _impolite_ because it could be taken as your lack of responsibility.    



Tom Greenhill said:


> Also, is this -てみた expression a common way to be polite while saying "I've done something" in daily Japanese?


Coming back to this question of the OP's, I would say using the てみた form is NOT a common way to be polite when you say you've done something.


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## Flaminius

Contrafibularity said:


> There are cases where tentativeness in the てみた form does not signify politeness even on formal occasions. For instance:
> 
> 上司：頼んでた仕事、やってくれた？
> あなた：はい、昨日*やりました*。／はい、昨日*やってみました*。


Of course not.  A question, not a rhetorical: Where did I say that _V-te miru_ always marks the speech polite?

The king and the servant are on a hunting ride.
King: Was that renegade a gentleman or a peasant?
Servant: In my opinion, a gentleman, Your Grace.

If the servant is dead sure about what he says, the tentative "in my opinion" is incongruent.  Why is it there if not for politeness' sake?  The expression doesn't work in an English equivalent of your example.  I don't find it too odd that the same expression soothes pride in one context and incurs wrath in another.


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