# воспитанный / вежливый



## poisongift

What's the difference between these words?


----------



## rusita preciosa

I'd say, they are close. 

*Bоспитанный* means *well brought-up / well raised *(generally), while *вежливый* means *polite* (more of a situational characteristic).


----------



## Drink

rusita preciosa said:


> *Bоспитанный* means *well brought-up / well raised *(generally)



A good translation is "disciplined".


----------



## rusita preciosa

Drink said:


> A good translation is "disciplined".


 I personally cannot think of a context where it would be the translation.


----------



## Drink

rusita preciosa said:


> I personally cannot think of a context where it would be the translation.



Practically any context: воспитанный ребенок = disciplined child


----------



## Linguoman

Drink said:


> Practically any context: воспитанный ребенок = disciplined child



Isn't it more like "дисциплинированный"? I am not sure, but I can guess it.

"Дисциплинированный" and "воспитанный" are not synonyms.
The former is more like "someone who has been trained to follow rules, strict order etc., who performs all their duties properly", it can be used for a student, an employee, or for the military service.
The latter is more like "having good social manners".


----------



## rusita preciosa

Drink said:


> воспитанный ребенок = disciplined child


 Bоспитанный and disciplined have different meanings.


----------



## Drink

Linguoman said:


> Isn't it more like "дисциплинированный"? I am not sure, but I can guess it.
> 
> "Дисциплинированный" and "воспитанный" are not synonyms.
> The former is more like "someone who has been trained to follow rules, strict order etc., who performs all their duties properly", it can be used for a student, an employee, or for the military service.
> The latter is more like "having good social manners".



In English, "disciplined" covers both of those meanings. After all, aren't manners and etiquette also just rules that people are trained to follow?



rusita preciosa said:


> Bоспитанный and disciplined have different meanings.



English "disciplined" and Russian "дисциплинированный" do not have the same usage. If I wanted to compliment someone's son about his manners, I would say "Your son is very disciplined."


----------



## rusita preciosa

Drink,

I'm not sure why you keep insisting. Two native speakers with a very good command in English told you that you are wrong.


----------



## poisongift

_Drink_ is also a native Russian speaker.

I would like to point out that _disciplined _in English certainly can mean _polite_ as well as _hard-working.
_
Someone who continually sacrifices a great deal in order to reach his/her goals is _disciplined_, and a child who follows rules is _disciplined_.

It seems to me, based on this conversation, that воспитанный means the latter (polite) but not the former (hard-working). Right?


----------



## Maroseika

poisongift said:


> It seems to me, based on this conversation, that воспитанный means the latter (polite) but not the former (hard-working). Right?



Exactly. Someone can be воспитанный, but not disciplined and not hard-working. However he cannot but be polite.
For a disciplined child I'd suggest another word: послушный.


----------



## Drink

rusita preciosa said:


> Drink,
> 
> I'm not sure why you keep insisting. Two native speakers with a very good command in English told you that you are wrong.



Having grown up in a Russian-speaking household in America, household topics such as this one are one of the few areas where my Russian is still better than my English. So let me assure you that while your command of Russian as a whole may be better than mine, I know just as well as you do the meaning of the word _воспитанный_. And yet, my command of English in this area is still better than that of any non-native English speaker. I know people who came to America from Russia in their teens in the 1970s, went through high school and university in America, and then raised kids in America, but still mispronounce _consequences_ as _con-SEE-quences_. Thus, I find it hard to believe that you magically know better than I do the meaning of _disciplined_ in English.



Maroseika said:


> Exactly. Someone can be воспитанный, but not disciplined and not hard-working. However he cannot but be polite.
> For a disciplined child I'd suggest another word: послушный.



In Russian, _воспитанный_ is not just "polite", but specifically "raised to be polite". I don't know why you don't believe me that in English, _disciplined_ can (but does not always) have this same meaning.

For _пуслушный_, I would suggest _obedient_. I would rarely use _disciplined_ for such a meaning.


----------



## poisongift

Thanks, Drink.

So then, is there a distinct reason to use "вежливый" instead of "воспитанный", or are they often interchangeable? What I've gathered so far is that "вежливый" doesn't necessarily imply anything about a person's upbringing, but simply that he/she was acting politely by putting others' needs ahead of his/her own (holding a door open, etc.).


----------



## Sobakus

poisongift said:


> Thanks, Drink.
> 
> So then, is there a distinct reason to use "вежливый" instead of "воспитанный", or are they often interchangeable? What I've gathered so far is that "вежливый" doesn't necessarily imply anything about a person's upbringing, but simply that he/she was acting politely by putting others' needs ahead of his/her own (holding a door open, etc.).



They aren't interchangeable at all, see post #2. You've got the meaning of _вежливый_ right.

I also think that _disciplined_ isn't a good translation for _воспитанный_, their meanings may overlap, but the connotations are quite different. _Well-mannered_ sounds closer to me, even though it encompasses both Russian words.


----------



## poisongift

Sobakus said:


> They aren't interchangeable at all, see post #2. You've got the meaning of _вежливый_ right.
> 
> _Well-mannered_ sounds closer to me, even though it encompasses both Russian words.



I am confused by what you're saying. You say they aren't interchangeable, but I don't see a difference between "well-mannered" and "polite". Those words seem basically interchangeable to me in English. So what's the difference in Russian? Are you telling me that I can only say "воспитанный" when the courteous action is the result of a decent upbringing? The difference seems absolutely minute to me.


----------



## Sobakus

poisongift said:


> I am confused by what you're saying. You say they aren't interchangeable, but I don't see a difference between "well-mannered" and "polite". Those words seem basically interchangeable to me in English. So what's the difference in Russian? Are you telling me that I can only say "воспитанный" when the courteous action is the result of a decent upbringing? The difference seems absolutely minute to me.



_Воспитанный_ only denotes a good upbringing, while its results are mostly implied and don't really have to include any outstanding politeness. If anything, it denotes the lack of socially unacceptable behaviour, and today is mostly applicable to minors and possibly young adults.


----------



## Drink

Sobakus said:


> _Воспитанный_ only denotes a good upbringing, while its results are mostly implied and don't really have to include any outstanding politeness. If anything, it denotes the lack of socially unacceptable behaviour, and today is mostly applicable to minors and possibly young adults.



That's probably the best explanation I've seen.


----------



## thereme

poisongift said:


> The difference seems absolutely minute to me.


The difference appears absolutely clear to me: the former is derived from воспитать, like 'disciplined' is derived from 'to discipline', the latter is an adjective on its own right, specifically denoting people's politeness. Even this difference is not minute to me (for example: это был человек, воспитанный в подвале), but there is also more. Воспитать does not refer only to rules (manners, etiquette, etc), it also refers to knowing what is good and what is bad, some basic ideas about the world, and so on, i.e. such knowledge that cannot be condensed into rules. Вежливый also does not refer only to rules, it refers to the general sense of consideration for other people's feelings, to people who have such sense and may also use rules, or anything else on choice, to follow it. Тактичный is closer to вежливый than воспитанный is, but the meaning of тактичный is temporal more than generic: тактичный человек knows the right time for any word or action, while вежливый человек just knows that other people's feelings exist and need be respected. Someone's воспитание (upbringing) can be either directed or not at achieving such sense of consideration for others. Воспитывать seems to have a broader meaning than 'to discipline', because it does not have to refer either to rules or to punishment. Дисциплинированный, unlike 'disciplined', is not derived from any verb (это не тот человек, которого "дисциплинировали" (such verb is not present in Russian), это тот человек, который соблюдает дисциплину), and the rules it refers to must be distinctly pronounced, and aimed at a special niche, if not then this word has no sense.


Drink said:


> After all, aren't manners and etiquette also just rules that people are trained to follow?


Not only. See above.


----------



## thereme

Linguoman said:


> The latter is more like "having good social manners".


I think that this comment is a natural and usual mistake, formed by an illusion of consciousness: in childhood, children's attention is drawn to manners, because manners are something that needs to be learned consciously, unlike many other things that are also included in воспитание, so then all life it seems that manners is all that воспитание is about. This methodological mistake is really widespread, as far as I see, and it covers not only perceptions of воспитание, but many other perceptions as well. We notice mostly what we need to pay conscious attention to, disregarding what happens without intended goal-setting.


----------

