# Legittimare



## OmarCore

Hi everybody
I'm searching for the english word of "*legittimare*".
_Legitimise_ doesn't meet my needs...are there any other suggestions?

(That's the sentence where the word causes problem) I'm talking about "Learning in an organisation"

A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimise (???) learning by providing adequate resources. 
 
Thank you so much for your help


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## morgana

I think it's "to legitimate"

Ciao


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## DDT

"to justify" might be suitable too, but some more context would help to better understand

DDT


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## Panpan

'Facillitate' would appear to work.

hope this helps
Panpan


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## DesertCat

I agree that facilitate sounds right.


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## lsp

How about to support or to validate?


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## Silvia

OmarCore said:
			
		

> I'm searching for the english word of "*legittimare*".
> _Legitimise_ doesn't meet my needs...are there any other suggestions?
> 
> (That's the sentence where the word causes problem) I'm talking about "Learning in an organisation"
> 
> A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimise (???) learning by providing adequate resources.


 Credo dovresti fornirci la frase in italiano, per capire meglio cosa vuoi dire esattamente. Comunque concordo con DDT, la traduzione migliore per "legittimare" sembra essere "to justify" in quel contesto, perché il verbo è usato in modo figurativo, infatti non fa riferimento ad alcuna legge.


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## Panpan

Justify doesn't really make sense in this context in English.  It would mean 'to defend' or 'rationalise' in the sense of verbally arguing for, and the sentance is talking about doing something practical, i.e. providing resources.

'Promote' would be better if you want to show a positive effort being made to encourage learning to take place.

Hope this helps

Panpan


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## lsp

Panpan said:
			
		

> Justify doesn't really make sense in this context in English.  It would mean 'to defend' or 'rationalise' in the sense of verbally arguing for, and the sentance is talking about doing something practical, i.e. providing resources.
> 
> 'Promote' would be better if you want to show a positive effort being made to encourage learning to take place.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Panpan


"Justify" changes the meaning, as Panpan said. I agree with his "promote" (or my "support"), to relate to the end of the phrase (a verb that would be modified by "by providing adequate resources."

We must ask, what does providing adequate resources do for learning? It promotes, supports, bolsters or encourages it.


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## Silvia

From dictionary.com

*justify*:
To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

That's what legittimare means in that context in Italian. That said, I have no idea whether the verb justify is not used for the above mentioned meaning in English.

Are you saying that?


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## leenico

> Hi everybody
> I'm searching for the english word of "legittimare".
> Legitimise doesn't meet my needs...are there any other suggestions?


"Warrant" would also fit the bill.


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## lsp

silviap said:
			
		

> From dictionary.com
> 
> *justify*:
> To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
> 
> That's what legittimare means in that context in Italian. That said, I have no idea whether the verb justify is not used for the above mentioned meaning in English.
> 
> Are you saying that?


I wasn't attempting to translate the word legittimare as much as I was trying to find the word with the meaning needed in the context of this sentence: "A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to *legitimise (???)* learning by providing adequate resources."

Again, seeking to relate to the end of the phrase (a verb that would be modified by "by providing adequate resources."), I think that "to justify learning" is not the same as justifying the expenses (adequate resources) to enable that learning to occur, which I interpret as the goal of the last part of the quote.

"Warrant" translates, but for the same reason I wouldn't vote for "justify", I think it does not work, IMHO, in this sentence.


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## Panpan

Quote: A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimise (???) learning by providing adequate resources.

With regard to Sylviap's contribution post #10 Yes it is a good definition, but that wouldn't make sense in this sentance. 

You could justify the provision of resources (prove that it is right to provide resources) by refering to the benefits of the learning outcomes that providing resources brings, but the sentance talks about legitimise (???) learning. 

You can justify learning by talking about the benefits that learning brings, but the provision of resources is not one of the benefits of learning, its the other way round, learning is a benefit of providing resources.

You could say 'to show that learning justifies providing (or the provision of) adequate resources'.

Is that the sense intended in the original?

Panpan


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## Silvia

Actually, I'm not analysing the content of what's been said. One could also say: I want to eat a house of gold and tiles of apricot. It doesn't make much sense, nevertheless I could translate that into Italian. Besides, we don't have the phrase in Italian, that would be the key for a correct interpretation.


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## OmarCore

I thank you all very much for your fruitful contributions and thin suggestions...I hadn't expect such a commitment seeking at the best word to use...
Now i had the inverse problem...too many verbs that could fill the gap!!!
Nonetheless I'm happy to have the choice rather than a single wrong word!

I add the previous and following sentence...

What i'm talking about is the "creation of a supportive culture" in an organisation. A culture that should justify/promote/support/encourage/warrant [legitimate] the action of "learning while working" of the collaborators of the organisation itself.

The concept of organisational learning had to become part of the organisation’s culture (meaning a set of basic values, ideologies and assumptions which guide norms and behaviour of its member): 
A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to justify/promote/support/encourage/warrant [legitimate] learning by providing adequate resources.
Related to a process that meant initiating and supporting a learning cycle : reviewing experience, concluding from experience and planning future action.

Actually there's no "Italian" version, having conceived and written the text myself and directly in English. In my point of view "Legittimare" is the verb with the highest correlation in Italian!

Many many thanks for your further involvement

I hope this thinking area isn't too complicated and/or polluting the mind ("spaccatesta")

Ciao

Omar


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## Panpan

In that case, I would use 'promote' or 'encourage'.  You could also use 'actively encourage', to show that something practical is expected, i.e. the provision of resources.

Hope that helps

Panpan


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## Silvia

Omar, allora ti chiedo di tradurre il tuo concetto in italiano, per favore, se puoi


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## OmarCore

silviap said:
			
		

> Omar, allora ti chiedo di tradurre il tuo concetto in italiano, per favore, se puoi


 
Cercherò di essere il più chiaro e conciso possibile, anche perché mi rendo perfettamente conto di essere in un campo abbastanza complicato e un pò troppo socio-filosofico a volte...

Il mio compito nel settore della gestione delle conoscenze (knowledge management) é quello di valutare quanto e in che modo la divisione e circolazione del sapere (knowledge sharing) é effettiva all'interno dell'organizzazione. Due livelli sono distinti in questo processo: da una parte la politica/strategia dell'azienda, dall'altra l'effettivo riscontro concreto sul terreno (tecniche lavorative, risorse,...)

Nella creazione/presenza di una "cultura aziendale di supporto", é indispensabile legittimare l'apprendimento -learning- dei collaboratori tramite l'allestimento di una rete di risorse tecniche e pratiche.

Spero di esser stato sufficientemente chiaro e mi scuso per l'eccessiva contorsione del pensiero che potrei provocare 

Omar


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## Silvia

Sì, hai ragione, faccio fatica a capire.

Credo proprio che la maggior parte dei verbi finora suggeriti non vada bene, per il semplice motivo che non corrispondono al concetto che c'è dietro. Una cosa è favorire l'apprendimento, altra cosa è legittimarlo, cosa che suppongo sia necessaria in un'azienda dove i costi devono essere supportati da motivazioni valide, altrimenti le spese vengono drasticamente tagliate. La legittimazione, come ho supposto finora, rende qualcosa valido e necessario.

Sinceramente non ho ancora capito perché il verbo justify non sia corretto in questo contesto, forse qualcuno potrà di lungarsi in una spiegazione più dettagliata. Riguardo a legitimate, trovo che anche questo sia giusto. Ma l'inglese non è la mia lingua madre e sono consapevole di non poter darti una certezza al riguardo.

Credo che dovremmo concentrarci su questi due verbi: legitimate e justify. E qualcuno dovrebbe gentilmente chiarire perché non si possono utilizzare.


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## Panpan

OK, I'll try, but I'll have to do it in English because my Italian is just not good enough.

Means can be justified by ends.
Ends can justify means.

Where:- 
means = method of doing something, or way of doing something, and
ends = outcomes, or results, or product.

In this sentance:- 
learning is an outcome, and
provision of resources is the means by which the learning is obtained.

Therefore; '...a willingness to justify learning by providing adequate resources' does not make sense.  'Providing adequate resources' does not 'justify' (=provide justification for) learning.

Providing adequate resources does or may;

 make learning possible;
 facilitate learning; 
 encourage learning;
 provide learning with support;
 promote learning.

You could say that learning justifies putting in resources, or that putting in resources is justified by the learning that is acheived.

What you would be saying if the sentance retains 'justify' would be something like;
'...a willingness to identify reasons for the continued existence of learning, by providing resources.'

'Legitimate' (as a BE speaker I would prefer to say legitimise) almost works, in the sense that it could mean 'permit to happen' which is not far from 'make possible, make happen'.  ('...a willingness to make learning happen....' is the sense that I understand you to intend).  However, 'legitimate' is used in a narrower sense in English, more like 'to give formal approval to'.

I hope very much that that has helped.  Also a question please for OmarCore on one small thing that has been puzzling me; would you mind explaining (by PM if it's too far off topic), what is a 'thin suggestion', is this a translation from an Italian expression?  

Thanks

Panpan


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## OmarCore

Panpan said:
			
		

> Also a question please for OmarCore on one small thing that has been puzzling me; would you mind explaining (by PM if it's too far off topic), what is a 'thin suggestion', is this a translation from an Italian expression?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Panpan


 
Thank you Panpan it HAS helped very much.
I'm afraid *thin suggestion* IS a translation from an Italian (sottile, fine) as well as a French (subtile) expression. In my opinion and in this specific case it is used when a suggestion goes right to the point and particularly into details. I have found your contribution absolutely adequate...and i have used this adjective to underline the accuracy of your proposals.

Does the _adjective_ thin not fit with the _noun_ suggestion?

And the discussion goes on...towards new undiscovered lands

)


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## ikester

OmarCore said:
			
		

> I'm afraid *thin suggestion* IS a translation from an Italian (sottile, fine) as well as a French (subtile) expression. In my opinion and in this specific case it is used when a suggestion goes right to the point and particularly into details. I have found your contribution absolutely adequate...and i have used this adjective to underline the accuracy of your proposals.
> Does the _adjective_ thin not fit with the _noun_ suggestion?


_Thin_ would not be used with _suggestion_ in English... perhaps _keen._ 

ciao,


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## Silvia

Panpan... your post opened the gate to a different perspective, and I realized there might be a mistake in Omar's English version. As I see it now, the problem is "by".



			
				OmarCore said:
			
		

> è indispensabile legittimare l'apprendimento -learning- dei collaboratori tramite l'allestimento di una rete di risorse tecniche e pratiche.


L'apprendimento avviene tramite l'allestimento di risorse, le risorse sono complemento dell'apprendimento, specificano com'è l'apprendimento.

A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimate learning through adequate resources.

What kind of learning is it? It is through adequate resources.

Does that make any sense?!


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## Panpan

Almost, and I think we are getting much closer.  'By' and 'through' are pretty much synonyms in this context, but using 'through' does exclude some of the other meanings of 'by' and make thing clearer.

However, as I said in post #20, personally I would substitute a different word for 'legitimate'.  Although I would guess the meaning from the context, 'legitimate' really does have a narrower meaning of providing formal confirmation or approval (and also I would use 'legitimise', because 'legitimate' is an adjective in British English, the opposite of 'illegitimate') .

If we are looking to classify the type of learning, as the type that 'is' or 'comes into existence through' the provision...etc, then I think the closest we can get is '... a willingness to generate learning through the provision of a.r.'

What a great collaborative team effort!  Well done everyone.

Panpan


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## Silvia

You legitimise that type of learning you get through adequate resources.

What about that? Can you get it? You only justify the learning you can get through adequate resources. That's the way I see it.


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## lsp

Panpan, I didn't mean to abandon this thread, but I see your posts have expressed my every thought better than I ever could have done. Compliments on articulating such esoteric explanations.


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## OmarCore

Sorry for this late reply

I just wanted to sincerely thanks you all for your help. I hadn't expect such a valuable commitment by everyone. This forum really surprised me in this sense.
Finally, and after a discussion with the responsible person for "Knowledge Management", i translate the Italian word "legittimare" with "actively encourage". In the specific context that was the most appropriate expression WE (me and in particular you all dear FORUMERS - forum participants) have found.

Thank you so much

Ciao

Omar


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## lsp

OmarCore said:
			
		

> Sorry for this late reply
> 
> I just wanted to sincerely thanks you all for your help. I hadn't expect such a valuable commitment by everyone. This forum really surprised me in this sense.
> Finally, and after a discussion with the responsible person for "Knowledge Management", i translate the Italian word "legittimare" with "actively encourage". In the specific context that was the most appropriate expression WE (me and in particular you all dear FORUMERS - forum participants) have found.
> 
> Thank you so much
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Omar


Thank you for providing the final chapter, Omar. I think you chose well after all.


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## sempre imparando

"A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimise (???) learning by providing adequate resources."

Somehow this thread has escaped my attention. I am not going to offer any recommendations as to the word legitimise/legitimize.

I do not understand the rules of English grammar as well as I would like, though I believe myself to be articulate. But the sentence itself is not complete; something is missing. If I read this sentence in some publication my response would have been, "say what?"; meaning, the entire sentence's meaning is not clear.


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## OmarCore

sempre imparando said:
			
		

> "A positive attitude to learning, a commitment by everyone to contribute to the process and a willingness to legitimise (???) learning by providing adequate resources."
> 
> Somehow this thread has escaped my attention. I am not going to offer any recommendations as to the word legitimise/legitimize.
> 
> I do not understand the rules of English grammar as well as I would like, though I believe myself to be articulate. But the sentence itself is not complete; something is missing. If I read this sentence in some publication my response would have been, "say what?"; meaning, the entire sentence's meaning is not clear.


 
You're right. Said this way it's not clear at all...but it's really a long and "contorted" story ...anyway thanks a lot for the remark!! The sentence does make sense in the context of the report!!

Ciao

Omar


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