# What do you want me to say?



## aleksk

Sometimes I can manage quite a lot of complex German (ok, Kafka is still somewhere in the distant future  ), and sometimes I'm struggling with very basic sentences that I'd like to use in everyday communication. Like this one: What do you want me to say?  

Was willst du ich zu sagen? 
Was willst du von mir zu sagen?
Was willst du, dass ich sage?

All of these sound kind of wrong. Help me, please.


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## Kajjo

Idiomatic:
_Was soll ich sagen?
Was soll ich Deiner Meinung nach sagen?
_
You suggestion _"Was willst Du, daß ich sage."_ is correct, but rarely used.

Kajjo


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## aleksk

Kajjo said:


> Idiomatic:
> _Was soll ich sagen?
> Was soll ich Deiner Meinung nach sagen?
> _
> You suggestion _"Was willst Du, daß ich sage."_ is correct, but rarely used.
> 
> Kajjo



Thanks. Could you tell me why the first two are wrong? I mean, I know intuitively that they are, they sound wrong to me as well, but I don't know why. 

And also, wouldn't Was soll ich sagen be more like What should I say? 
What if I really want to emphasize YOU, what do YOU want me to say? Probably I would use your second suggestion, but it sounds way too formal, or not?


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## cyanista

aleksk said:


> And also, wouldn't Was soll ich sagen be more like What should I say?
> What if I really want to emphasize YOU, what do YOU want me to say? Probably I would use your second suggestion, but it sounds way too formal, or not?


Dann würde ich aber sagen: *Was willst du (denn) von mir hören?* 

Was willst du ich zu sagen? ??? Du hast irgendwie vergessen, dass es im Deustchen Kasus gibt. 

Was willst du von mir zu sagen? An wollen kann man keine Infinitivkonstruktion anschließen, wenn das Subjekt anders ist. Man braucht einen Nebensatz.


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## aleksk

cyanista said:


> Dann würde ich aber sagen: *Was willst du (denn) von mir hören?*



That's it! Very smart, thanks. I should learn to think outside the box when speaking German.


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## aleksk

cyanista said:


> Dann würde ich aber sagen: *Was willst du (denn) von mir hören?*
> 
> Was willst du ich zu sagen? ??? Du hast irgendwie vergessen, dass es im Deustchen Kasus gibt.
> 
> Was willst du von mir zu sagen? An wollen kann man keine Infinitivkonstruktion anschließen, wenn das Subjekt anders ist. Man braucht einen Nebensatz.



Yes, I see clearly why  Was willst du von mir zu sagen? is wrong now. But I still don't get the  "Was willst du ich zu sagen?" one. Of course I never forget the cases, but there is no noun or personal pronoun affected by the cases here, is there?  It sounds wrong grammatically to me too, no doubt about it, but I just can't see the reason.


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## cyanista

"Was willst du ich zu sagen?

Ich persönlich verstehe gar nicht, was in diesem Satz was ist.   Das klingt wie eine ziemlich sinnlose Wort-für-Wort Übersetzung, außer das "me" nicht "ich" wäre, sondern "mich" oder "mir"!


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## aleksk

Ok, let's say I do need a literal translation (I don't, but let's suppose I do, merely to facilitate the discussion). Is there not a way to translate the original sentence in a language so rich and complex as German? 

I'm aware of the fact that literal translation from English to German is wrong, and I always try to avoid it, I was just wondering what is grammatically wrong with that sentence. Because, I can think of three other languages at the moment, where a literal translation of this sentence works perfectly well  (Macedonian, Bulgarian and Serbian). I'm just wondering why it doesn't work in German, don't tell me just because it sounds wrong, I knew that from the very beginning - read my initial post.


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## Acrolect

aleksk said:


> But I still don't get the "Was willst du ich zu sagen?" one. Of course I never forget the cases, but there is no noun or personal pronoun affected by the cases here, is there? It sounds wrong grammatically to me too, no doubt about it, but I just can't see the reason.


 
The _ich_ is affected. You use the nominative, but the subject of an infinitive clause cannot be assigned the nominative (at least in the languages that I speak - this definitely applies to German and English). It can be assigned the accusative if it is raised into the object position of the matrix/embedding clause, as would be the case in the English version of the sentence: _What do you want *me *__to say_? But in German this does not work with the verb _wollen_, just with a few verbs (mainly those concerned with sensual perception: _Was hörst du ihn sagen?_).



> Dann würde ich aber sagen: *Was willst du (denn) von mir hören?*


Wow! This is the first thing that came to my mind when I read the original sentence. I think it fully captures all levels of meaning of the English original.


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## Arrius

Was erwartest du, das ich sage?


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## aleksk

Acrolect said:


> The _ich_ is affected. You use the nominative, but the subject of an infinitive clause cannot be assigned the nominative (at least in the languages that I speak - this definitely applies to German and English). It can be assigned the accusative if it is raised into the object position of the matrix/embedding clause, as would be the case in the English version of the sentence: _What do you want *me *__to say_? But in German this does not work with the verb _wollen_, just with a few verbs (mainly those concerned with sensual perception: _Was hörst du ihn sagen?_).
> 
> 
> Wow! This is the first thing that came to my mind when I read the original sentence. I think it fully captures all levels of meaning of the English original.



Thanks Arcolect. Your explanations are so good. 

Anyway, what do I do in such cases when I need to use a similar form? Like, What do you want me to do, Where do you want me to go, etc?
Was willst du, dass ich mache? Wohin willst du, dass ich gehe? These sound kind of wrong as well. Or not? Any suggestions?


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## Kajjo

aleksk said:


> Thanks Arcolect. Your explanations are so good.
> 
> Anyway, what do I do in such cases when I need to use a similar form? Like, What do you want me to do, Where do you want me to go, etc?
> Was willst du, dass ich mache? Wohin willst du, dass ich gehe? These sound kind of wrong as well. Or not? Any suggestions?


As I said before: Just say "Was soll ich machen?", "Wo soll ich hingehen?" -- Man kann die exakte Phrase kaum übertragen und meine ursprüngliche Antwort war wohl überdacht eine allgemeine, für viele Fragen gültige Version. 

Es gibt auch viele kurze deutsche Sätze, die man nicht so einfach auf Englisch sagen kann -- und umgekehrt eben auch. "What do you want me to..." ist einfach eine prägnante Phrase, aber kein Deutscher würde all diese Fragen so stellen.

Kajjo


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## aleksk

ok. Then, I'll stick to the "was soll ich deiner Meinung..." form.


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## Acrolect

aleksk said:


> Like, What do you want me to do, Where do you want me to go, etc? Was willst du, dass ich mache? Wohin willst du, dass ich gehe? These sound kind of wrong as well. Or not? Any suggestions?


Many of the constructions where I move a WH-element out of a subordinate clause into the main clause (_du willst, dass ich *was *mache - *Was* willst du, dass ich mache_) sound strange because we cannot help associating it with the verb of the main clause. This also shows in the fact that the worse these fit together, the less acceptable the sentence becomes, e.g.:

_Wem willst du, dass ich helfe._
_Welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ein Angebot machen wird._
_Wessen Hut erinnert er sich, dass du bei seinem Geburtstag getragen hast._

These should work syntactically, but you will not get an unanimous judgement on the grammaticality/acceptability of these sentences (to make matters worse, you may probably even hear more complex forms, e.g. for the second sentence above: _Von welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ihr ein Angebot machen wird_).

Coming back to your question, with _want sb. to do sth._, I think you are fairly safe if you use modal_ sollen_, as suggested, because the context will show that the source of the suggestion/obligation is the addressee/the second person and it is thus very close in meaning to the English infinitive clause construction.


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## Kajjo

@Aleksk:


Acrolect said:


> _Wem willst du, dass ich helfe. Wem soll ich helfen?_
> _Welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ein Angebot machen wird. Welcher Frau wird sie Deiner Meinung nach ein Angebot machen?_



@Acrolect: Ja, bezüglich Deiner Erklärung sind wir uns einig. 

Kajjo


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## Acrolect

aleksk said:


> ok. Then, I'll stick to the "was soll ich deiner Meinung..." form.


 
_Deiner Meinung nach_ is OK in most cases where you translate from English to German, but there is no one-to-one correspondence because 

_Was soll ich deiner Meinung nach tun?_

could also be used if I want to hear somebody's advice. In this case, the German sentence would not be the translation of _What do you want me to do?_, but rather _What do you think I should do?_


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## aleksk

Acrolect said:


> Many of the constructions where I move a WH-element out of a subordinate clause into the main clause (_du willst, dass ich *was *mache - *Was* willst du, dass ich mache_) sound strange because we cannot help associating it with the verb of the main clause. This also shows in the fact that the worse these fit together, the less acceptable the sentence becomes, e.g.:
> 
> _Wem willst du, dass ich helfe._
> _Welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ein Angebot machen wird._
> _Wessen Hut erinnert er sich, dass du bei seinem Geburtstag getragen hast._
> 
> These should work syntactically, but you will not get an unanimous judgement on the grammaticality/acceptability of these sentences (to make matters worse, you may probably even hear more complex forms, e.g. for the second sentence above: _Von welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ihr ein Angebot machen wird_).
> 
> Coming back to your question, with _want sb. to do sth._, I think you are fairly safe if you use modal_ sollen_, as suggested, because the context will show that the source of the suggestion/obligation is the addressee/the second person and it is thus very close in meaning to the English infinitive clause construction.



Arcolect, you got me now thinking  even more. So, how would you express those three sentences (the ones you used for illustration) in common German? ok, for the first one you'd say "Wem soll ich helfen"? What about the other two? How would you simplify them so that they sound natural?


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## aleksk

Ok, I see Kajjo corrected the second one.

Gosh, if I ever hear this one _Von welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ihr ein Angebot machen wird, _I would have to stop and think for some good 5 minutes what the speaker wants to say.


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## Stardenver

> Gosh, if I ever hear this one _Von welcher Frau glaubst du, dass sie ihr ein Angebot machen wird, _I would have to stop and think for some good 5 minutes what the speaker wants to say.



LOL....thats exactly what I thought, when I read this....


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## dec-sev

Acrolect said:


> _Deiner Meinung nach_ is OK in most cases where you translate from English to German, but there is no one-to-one correspondence because
> 
> _Was soll ich deiner Meinung nach tun?_
> 
> could also be used if I want to hear somebody's advice. In this case, the German sentence would not be the translation of _What do you want me to do?_, but rather _What do you think I should do?_


 
But how would you translate _What do you want me to do_?


> As I said before: Just say "Was soll ich machen?", "Wo soll ich hingehen?" -- Man kann die exakte Phrase kaum übertragen und meine ursprüngliche Antwort war wohl überdacht eine allgemeine, für viele Fragen gültige Version.
> 
> Es gibt auch viele kurze deutsche Sätze, die man nicht so einfach auf Englisch sagen kann -- und umgekehrt eben auch. "What do you want me to..." ist einfach eine prägnante Phrase, aber kein Deutscher würde all diese Fragen so stellen.
> 
> Kajjo


 
Ich glaube, wir einen Moment vergessen. _What do you want *me* to do_ enfhält, meiner Meinung nach, einen Vorwurf oder Unzufriedenheit mit jemandem (*me*) . _Was soll ich machen_ mangelt am Vorgeworfenen. 

Die einzige Lösung die ich sehe ist das von Cyanista vorgebrachte Beispiel als Grundlage nehmen and sagen: 
_Was willst du denn von mir (gemacht) haben_.


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## Henryk

> What do you want me to do?


Was soll ich denn tun?

Für den Satz im Titel finde ich, dass _"Was soll ich denn sagen?"_ perfekt passt.


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## dec-sev

Henryk said:


> Was soll ich denn tun?


 
What should I do?


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## aleksk

Henryk said:


> Was soll ich denn tun?
> 
> Für den Satz im Titel finde ich, dass _"Was soll ich denn sagen?"_ perfekt passt.



Yes, I accepted that formulation as such, since all of you natives unanimously agree, and I thank you for your help. Although it seems imperfect approximation - if somebody gave me this sentence _"Was soll ich denn sagen?" _and asked me to translate it in English or any other language, I'd say it means: What should I do (then)?, not What do you want me to do? 

Furthermore, as I said, I can translate the English original at least in three other languages perfectly well (for those who understand, Macedonian for example: што сакаш (јас) да кажам?), but it simply doesn't work in German. I've accepted long time ago that German is fascinatingly weird


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## Henryk

dec-sev said:


> What should I do?



Yes, but in that case it's got the meaning of "sollte". "Soll" normally means that you don't act according to what you think is "adequate" but what someone else says. And in this context it fully reflects the English sentence. You'll do what the other person says, and normally the person would say what he/she wants.

_Peter soll seine Hausaufgaben machen.
Jochen soll einkaufen gehen.
_
-> It's not their decision but someone else's. Here it can't mean "sollte".

It's a matter of context.


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