# Persian: هندى / هندوستانى (Indian)



## seitt

Greetings,

You seem to have two words for India: هند and also هندوستان.

Are these synonyms or is there a difference between them?

What about the words for an Indian, هندی and also هندوستانی? These echo the first two words.

Best wishes, and many thanks,

Simon


----------



## searcher123

> Are these synonyms or is there a difference between them?


Both are the same.



> What about the words for an Indian, هندی and also هندوستانی?


Both are the same, but هندي is much more common.


----------



## Qureshpor

seitt said:


> Greetings,
> 
> You seem to have two words for India: هند and also هندوستان.
> 
> Are these synonyms or is there a difference between them?
> 
> What about the words for an Indian, هندی and also هندوستانی? These echo the first two words.
> 
> Best wishes, and many thanks,
> 
> Simon



This thread may add some information to your query.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1534440&highlight=Hind

Both Hind and Hindustaan mean the same thing, India. I am aware that Hindustaan has also had the significance of Northern India only as well and if I find an Urdu couplet linked to this thought process, I shall post it in this thread.

Hindi/Hindustaanii are both people (Indian) and language. For people...

From Iqbal's "taraanah-i-*Hindi*" (*Indian* National Anthem), "saare jahaaN se achchaa HindustaaN hamaaraa.....

mazhab nahiiN sikhaataa aapas meN bair rakhnaa
*Hindii* haiN ham vatan hai HindustaaN hamaaraa

Edit: Apologies Simon. For some reason I thought the language title was "Urdu/Hindi".


----------



## Phosphorus

They are actually synonyms. The second word however appears to be of an older origin: Middle Persian "Hindug" ~ "Indian; Hindu", thence "Hindugan" ~ "India"; which is reflected in New Persian "Hendustaan" (< "Hindugistan*").

"Hendi" and "Hendustani" are also synonyms, however "Hendi" is popular in the colloquial speech: فیلم هندی ~ Bollywood movies (which are sort of popular in Iran-specially among young girls).

But from a technical (official) viewpoint "Hendi" might often refer to "Hindi" ethnicity, language and culture, while one can use "Hendustani" in order to generally refer to the body of colorful languages, cultures, etc. in India.


----------



## fdb

Old Persian hindu-, Middle Persian hindūg, New Persian hindū, hindūstān, hindūstānī are etymologically Persian.

Hind, hindī are Arabic.


----------



## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> Both Hind and Hindustaan mean the same thing, India. I am aware that Hindustaan has also had the significance of Northern India only as well and if I find an Urdu couplet linked to this thought process, I shall post it in this thread.


No it was n't an Urdu couplet but a Persian one!

rubaahaaN gird aamadand az har kinaar
ham az Hind-o-Sind va az Bang-o-Bihaar

Isma'il Merathi 1844-1917

The foxes got together from every corner of the land
From north India and Sind as well as Bengal and Bihar


----------



## urdustan

fdb said:


> Old Persian hindu-, Middle Persian hindūg, New Persian hindū, hindūstān, hindūstānī are etymologically Persian.
> 
> Hind, hindī are Arabic.



This is interesting fdb SaaHeb.  I have read that there also used to be the forms *Hinduī *and *Hindavī*.  Are these forms originally Persian or Arabic?  Is there a reason for so many variations?


----------



## Faylasoof

urdustan said:


> This is interesting fdb SaaHeb.  I have read that there also used to be the forms *Hinduī *and *Hindavī*.  Are these forms originally Persian or Arabic?  Is there a reason for so many variations?


 _*Hinduī *_and _*Hindav**ī* _ (_hindawii_) are earlier names of Urdu and were used in the increasingly Persianized culture of northern regions of India. Sheikh Sa'adi even attempted compositions in *hindawii* when he came to Delhi. ... and yes the word _hindawii_ is of Indo-Persian usage.


----------



## urdustan

Thank you Faylasoof SaaHeb.  So *Hinduī *and *Hindawī *are not of Standard Persian or Arabic origin, but Indo-Persian instead?


----------



## Faylasoof

urdustan said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHeb.  So *Hinduī *and *Hindawī *are not of Standard Persian or Arabic origin, but Indo-Persian instead?


 Well, let me put it this way. The way I came across the usage of *هندوی* *Hinduī *and *Hindawī* was in the context of Indo-Persian as an early name for Urdu - the language has had other names too, including _Hindi_ and _rextah_! 

However, the usage of *هندوی* can be found among Persian poets too who, unlike Sa'di, did not go to India and were not talking of a language when using the word. As far as I know Rudaki (died 941) didn't go to India but you find him using this word:

رای تو هست برتر از رای هندوان 
تیغ تو هست برتر از تیغ  *هندوی*
رودکی 


Superior is thy thought to that of the Hinduwaan's*
Thy sword (too) is superior to those of the Indians**

_Rudaki (ruudakii)_


* ... and it is _Hinduwaan_ ( pl. of Hindu ) and not _Handawaan_ - a fort in Balkh.
** Swords of Indian steel were well known in the Ancient Near East, so much so that in pre-Islamic Arabic there was a specific noun associated with it, viz. *مھند* _*muhannad*_ = Sword of Indian steel, while the the verb ھنّد *hannada* = To Indianize, make a sword of Indian steel.

As yet I haven't seen *هندوی *used in Arabic to mean the same as what we are talking about, unless it is used as a borrowing,


----------



## gagun

What is meaning of the word Hindi(hind+ii) in Persian language. Is it like "relating to India" or other?
Thank you.


----------



## eskandar

gagun said:


> What is meaning of the word Hindi(hind+ii) in Persian language. is it like "relating to India" or other?
> Thank you.


In contemporary Persian, هندی _hindii_ has two meanings: (1) of or related to India, eg. غذای هندی _ghazaa-yi hindii_ "Indian food", and (2) the Hindi language. I should note that most Iranians are sadly very ignorant about India and many assume that "Hindi" is the only language spoken there.


----------



## colognial

Hello, everyone. 

Traditionally, the old word used in Persian literature has been 'hendu'. Nowadays, for Iranians, the word 'hendu' refers exclusively to a person from India who is a hindu by religion. So Hendi now refers to a person coming from the country India, regardless of ethnic or religious background. We do, however, distinguish among nationalities,  religions and local languages. A person from Pakistan, Bangladesh, or  Sri Lanka is not Hendi, and is never thought of as one. Also, it is understood that across the country India there are spoken many different languages and dialects.

Finally, we do speak of 'hendi' films, 'hendi' song and dance, 'hendi' food, 'hendi' attire, mannerisms and idiosyncracies, etc., regardless of Internationally recognized borders. What we mean by this generalization is 'from that part of the world' without distinction, nor with a clear idea of what it is that lends itself to such generalization. What is popular worldwide about these cultural features must be the unifying essence here.


----------



## mundiya

^ If I understand you correctly, you would refer to a Pakistani film as a Hendi film?


----------



## colognial

mundiya said:


> ^ If I understand you correctly, you would also refer to a Pakistani film as a Hendi film?


 Certainly not in reference to its country of production. We might, though, in order to talk about a type. To me, personally, the 'hendi film' is traditionally one with song and dance, sari, love having a big say in things, good and evil being manifested in characters who will have a showdown, couples and families trying to overcome separation and economic and social strife. If the film was a 'farsi film' but had enough of these characteristics, I would probably liken it to a typical hendi film.


----------



## Stranger_

All that come to an Iranian mind upon hearing the word "hindii" are:
1) An Indian person, i.e. a person of Indian nationality regardless of their language and religion.
2) Hindi language
3) Indian culture including music, food, dress, movies...etc.

The word "hinduustaan" on the other hand refers to the whole subcontinent with its great history and diversifying culture. This word evokes a greater feeling of respect and admiration in us than simply "hind" or "hindii".

I can't speak for Dari, Tajiki and Indo-Persian though.


----------



## mundiya

Faylasoof said:


> _*Hinduī *_and _*Hindav**ī* _ (_hindawii_) are earlier names of Urdu and were used in the increasingly Persianized culture of northern regions of India. Sheikh Sa'adi even attempted compositions in *hindawii* when he came to Delhi. ... and yes the word _hindawii_ is of Indo-Persian usage.



It's important to mention that* Hinduī *and _*Hindav**ī* _ (_hindawii_) also referred to other language forms besides Urdu, and they are covered by the term _*Hindī*_.


----------



## Qureshpor

I would like to formulate my reply to gagun SaaHib in a systematic way. We have now had replies from three Persian speakers, namely aaqaayaan-i-eskander, colognial and Stranger and this should suffice to form a coherent view.

1) Hind-ii = of India (adjective)

From contemporary Persian, we have been given examples of Indian Food, Indian films etc, i.e Ghizaa-ye-Hindi and fiilm-i-Hindi. From Classical Persian literature, the most frequent occurrence with the adjective "Hindii" are sword, iron and steel. Of course other nouns such as "cuisine" are used too.

teGh/Shamsher/aahan/polaad-i-Hindi

sifat-i-ta3aam-i-Hindi (Amir Khusrau – Description of Indian Cuisine)

2) [Language] of India = Indian (noun)
​Just like the country France produces the adjective "French" and the noun "French" for the language and the people speaking it, the word "Hind" in the same manner produces the adjective "Hindii" (Indian) and the noun "Hindii" (Indian). For example:-

asl-am turk-ast agarchih Hindi goyam (Rumi)

My roots are Turkish although I speak Indian.

Then (and it seems eskandar SaaHib is saying possibly even now), according to the Persian speaking peoples, in India people spoke/speak Indian as opposed to their Paarsii/Faarsii/Darii. One plural of Hindii (an Indian) is "hunuud", although this may be very rare if used at all in Modern Persian.

The word "Hindii" has been used as a proper name as well in Classical Persian.

malik-zaadah~e buud Hindii ba-naam (Nizami)

There was a prince called "Hindii".

3) [Person] of India = Indian (noun)

I have n't been able to find an example from Persian but I have already quoted one from Urdu and I will quote it again.

Hindii haiN ham, vatah hai Hindustaan hamaaraa (Iqbal)

We are Indians and our homeland is Hindustaan

4) A language that has come to be called "Urdu" has been called "Hindii" in as late as 1938, the example of which I have already quoted. I should add that Iqbal wrote in English, German, Urdu and Farsi. He did not write anything in Modern Hindi.  Another example of this word "Hindii" for Urdu is in the title of a book (a memoir/anthology) in Persian written in 1794 by Sheikh Hamadani Mus'hafi (1750-1824) of Urdu poets. It was called "tazkirah-i-Hindii-goyaan" (تذکرہ ٔ ہندی گویان)

5) It would not be inconceivable in Modern Persian, be it from Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan or anywhere else for that matter to represent Modern Hindi of India as

zabaan-i-Hindii زبانِ ہندی or simply "Hindii".


----------



## colognial

Excellent effort at formulation, Qureshpor Saahib. Thank you. Your post makes me think of the shared history that could perhaps be traced by a historian through the many layers and variations of this word.


----------



## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> 4) A language that has come to be called "Urdu" has been called "Hindii" in as late as 1938, the example of which I have already quoted. I should add that Iqbal wrote in English, German, Urdu and Farsi. He did not write anything in Modern Hindi.  Another example of this word "Hindii" for Urdu is in the title of a book (a memoir/anthology) in Persian written in 1794 by Sheikh Hamadani Mus'hafi (1750-1824) of Urdu poets. It was called "tazkirah-i-Hindii-goyaan" (تذکرہ ٔ ہندی گویان)



Keep in mind that Urdu is not the only language form that has been called Hindi in the past.  But these are issues that have been discussed elsewhere.


----------



## eskandar

Historically "Hindi" has been a more general than specific term, including languages that are today called Hindi and Urdu as well as even others. "Hindi, however, remained the generic term for Indian languages, so that even in the nineteenth century Maulvi Khuda Bakhsh of Taunsa (D.G. Khan) termed his rhyming dictionary from Persian to Siraiki a 'Hindi' dictionary" (_Language and Politics in Pakistan_, Tariq Rahman, 1996, p. 173, citing from _Nisaab-e-Zaruurii_, Khuda Bakhsh, 1960, p. 15).


----------



## mundiya

^ Thank you for the excerpt, eskandar jii.  I was attempting to indicate something similar by using the phrase "language form(s)" for the registers, dialects, and languages that have been called Hindi / Hindavi / Hindvi / Hindui.


----------



## colognial

May I ask the Hindi speakers here whether the 'i' at the end of the words listed, i.e. Hindi, Hindavi, Hindvi, Hindui, is one of those 'i's that mean 'related to, of'? And if it is, then is it there in each of those words because in those languages, as in Persian, Arabic (apparently) and certainly English, one uses an 'i' to indicate a relationship? What I am wondering, which prompts these questions, is whether the 'i' at the end of a noun that names a country or people has that meaning in a lot of languages besides Persian. (I do think my question is answering itself, but, well, one does, from time to time, feel the urge to uncover as many small mysteries as possible while passing over the big ones!)


----------



## eskandar

I am not a Hindi speaker per se but yes, that -_i_ has the same meaning as the nisba in Arabic, Persian, etc. Yes, it has that meaning in many languages. It has at least three separate origins (in Semitic languages, found in Arabic, Hebrew, and others; in Persian, coming from a Middle Persian suffix if not earlier; and in Indic languages, coming from a Sanskrit adjective ending if I am not mistaken). It is also found in a great many other languages of the broad region encompassing most of West and Central Asia and the northern part of South Asia. It is most likely an areal feature whose origins are overdetermined by its coincidental occurrence in Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit, and possibly Turkic as well.


----------



## colognial

Going by your answer, eskandar Saahib - there, you ARE a speaker per se! - I feel this feature, this 'i', must be a gift, the germ of a spontaneous Esperanto, and as such, wonderful to share in along with so many others. Thank you very much!


----------

