# Regency of prex



## Casquilho

Salvete! I have a quick question.

Can you please clarify to me what's the correct case to use with _prex_, meaning a prayer to a deity? To say for example "prayer to the gods", should I use accusative, _prex in deos_, dative, _prex diis_, or some other form?


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## metaphrastes

Salve!
I was able to find in Lewis-Short one example including mention to gods, by Plinius: _"tribuunt ei successus petitionum a potestatibus, et a diis etiam precum"_. Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short,  A Latin Dictionary, prex

It seems _diis _is in Ablative, as the preposition _a _would call. I cannot say however if this pattern is standard in Classical Latin. The impression from the quotes, however, is that the fact the _preces _were addressed to gods would rather be understood from context than having to be explicitly affirmed.
Even today, if one says: _All were praying fervently _or _I will pray for your healing_, it is most often assumed from the specific religious-cultural context to whom these prayers will be addressed - in most occasions, it is a given. This may probably explain the scarcity of explicit mentions to deities in Lewis-Short.


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## Casquilho

Yeah I got that impression from Lewis & Short too. The problem is, what if I want to describe a prayer specific to a deity, like Prayer to Apollo or Prayer to Mars? My first guess would be ablative, but I consulted a bilingual Greek-Latin edition of the Homeric Hymns, and there the construction was in accusative, Εἲς Ἀφροδίτην was translated as _[Hymnus] In Venerem_, etc.

The word _prex_ occurs some times in Horace's Odes but I couldn't find this specific construction, "Prayer to [...]".


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## metaphrastes

Well, actually I cannot be of too much help on Classical Latin literature and usage, but I would assume that Jerome on the Vulgata would follow standard syntactic patterns to refer both to any prayer to the God of Israel or to anyone among the multitude of pagan gods.

So far, I found these examples with the word _*prex* _and mention to the one being addressed:
_Factum est autem, cum illa *multiplicaret **preces* *coram Domino*, ut Heli observaret os ejus. (1Sm 1:12 clm).
Coram _of course emphasizes not only the one being addressed but being in His presence, before Him and His sight. As you certainly know, it asks Ablative case.

_Sed ad hoc tantum facta est, ut respicias orationem servi tui, et obsecrationem ejus, Domine Deus meus, et audias *preces* quas *fundit *famulus tuus *coram te* : (2Cr 6:19 clm)._

_Quantum in te est, evacuasti timorem, et *tulisti preces coram Deo*. (Jó 15:4 clm)._

Here appears another pattern, _*ad* + *accusative*_:
_Hæc passus sum absque iniquitate manus meæ, cum *haberem *mundas *ad Deum preces*. (Jó 16:17 clm)._

Again the same pattern in Job, now with a pronoun:
_Numquid *multiplicabit ad te preces*, aut loquetur tibi mollia ? (Jó 41:3 clm)._

Now this example uses again _coram + ablative, _being the prayer addressed to the king:
_dices ad eos : *Prostravi *ego *preces* meas *coram rege*, ne me reduci juberet in domum Jonathan, et ibi morerer. (Jr 38:26 clm)._

Now another pattern, whose emphasis is however very similar to _coram - *in conspectu + genitive*:
Et dixit ad eos : Hæc dicit Dominus Deus Israël, ad quem misistis me ut *prosternerem preces* vestras *in conspectu ejus* : (Jr 42:9 clm).
_
Another pattern, bearing the same emphasis:
_Inclina, Deus meus, aurem tuam, et audi : aperi oculos tuos, et vide desolationem nostram, et civitatem super quam invocatum est nomen tuum : neque enim in justificationibus nostris *prosternimus preces ante faciem tuam*, sed in miserationibus tuis multis. (Dn 9:18 clm)._

_Cumque adhuc loquerer, et orarem, et confiterer peccata mea, et peccata populi mei Israël, et *prosternerem preces* meas *in conspectu Dei mei*, pro monte sancto Dei mei : (Dn 9:20 clm)._

Now, again *ad + accusative:*
_Qui in diebus carnis suæ *preces*, supplicationesque *ad eum* qui possit illum salvum facere a morte cum clamore valido, et lacrimis *offerens*, exauditus est pro sua reverentia. (Hb 5:7 clm).
_
There is another example, from the inscription before Psalm 102:
_Oratio pauperis, cum anxius fuerit, et *in conspectu Domini* *effuderit precem* suam. Domine, exaudi orationem meam, et clamor meus ad te veniat. (Sl 102:1 clm)._

Actually, I did not find even one Biblical example of _prex _or _preces _being addressed to gods. St Jerome uses in their case terms as _serving them, fearing them, offering immolation to them, praising them, &c, _and maybe this has roots in the very monotheistic character of Scriptures, though comparison with Classical Latin (pagan) corpus would be needed to clarify this distinction of word choice.

Anyway, it seems that the most neutral, though the less used pattern, is _*ad + accusative*. _The examples seemed to bear rather and attributive character, mentioning to whom the prayer was addressed as a complementar information or qualification of the prayer. On other hand, the patterns that bear the meaning of presenting the prayer _before, in the sight, in the face of God _seemed to bear a more predicative character, making a positive assertion about to whom the prayer was addressed.

Again, I cannot say how such patterns would be adequate in a radically distinct religious context, while for certain many terms, locutions and expressions from Scriptures find syntactic and lexical parallels with polytheistic cults.

Espero ter sido dalguma ajuda.

*Note: *_post edited in order to highlight the use of verbs, that are related with the issue, as seen in a later post - #7 - by Scholiast._


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## wandle

Casquilho said:


> To say for example "prayer to the gods"


In what sense? This phrase could have more than one meaning or use. There are also other possibilities in Latin besides those mentioned by *metaphrastes*.
Could you give a sentence in English showing how you would use the phrase?


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## metaphrastes

Casquilho said:


> I consulted a bilingual Greek-Latin edition of the Homeric Hymns, and there the construction was in accusative, Εἲς Ἀφροδίτην was translated as _[Hymnus] In Venerem_, etc


Well, a _hymn _is not exactly the same thing as a _prex-prayer, _in that the former is a petition while a _hymn_, in religious language, implies selfless praise, above all. It often happens that praising and making a petition are intertwined in the same _prayer _or _hymn_, but strictly speaking, they are different genres and we cannot assume they would call for the same regency.

Anyway, from the Vulgata again, I could find the following pattern regarding a hymn, or song, addressed to God:
_Tunc cecinit Moyses et filii Israël *carmen *hoc *Domino*, et dixerunt : Cantemus Domino : gloriose enim magnificatus est, equum et ascensorem dejecit in mare. (Ex 15:1 clm)._

_Et immisit in os meum canticum novum, *carmen Deo* nostro. Videbunt multi, et timebunt, et sperabunt in Domino. (Sl 40:3 clm).
_
There are other less clear examples using the word _hymnus _that always are addressed to _Deo, _or _Domino_, in dative/ablative form.

Regarding _gods, _in plural, I found two quotes about giving them praises or hymns - however they do not use any noun as _carmen _or _hymnus_, but rather the verb _laudo_, that asks accusative:
_Bibebant vinum, et *laudabant deos suos* aureos et argenteos, æreos, ferreos, ligneosque et lapideos. (Dn 5:4 clm)._

_... *deos *quoque argenteos, et aureos, et æreos, ferreos, ligneosque et lapideos, qui non vident, neque audiunt, neque sentiunt, *laudasti *: porro *Deum*, qui habet flatum tuum in manu sua, et omnes vias tuas, non *glorificasti*. (Dn 5:23 clm)._

See that the two contrasting clauses follow the very same syntactic pattern _*accusative *+ *attributive clause* + *verb*_: _*deos *(their attributes) *laudasti *: *Deum *(His attributes as manifested through His works) *non glorificasti*.
_


wandle said:


> There are also other possibilities in Latin besides those mentioned by *metaphrastes*.


Yes, certainly, and context matters a lot, as always.


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## Scholiast

salvete amici!

Permit me, please, to make a general observation not often (to the best of my knowledge) discussed in the usual manuals of Latin grammar.

Classical Latin dislikes the use of nouns with prepositional clauses. Such nouns, or noun-phrases, will most commonly be amplified with a verbal complement, as in (e.g.) _preces deae Veneri sublatae_, 'prayers *raised* to the goddess V.', and it is unsurprising therefore that L&S, as lexicographers rather than prescriptive grammarians, can offer only scant guidance.

I'll gladly look for chapter and verse to support this if need be, but have not the leisure therefor right now.

Σ


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## metaphrastes

Scholiast said:


> Classical Latin dislikes the use of nouns with prepositional clauses. Such nouns, or noun-phrases, will most commonly be amplified with a verbal complement, as in (e.g.) _preces deae Veneri sublatae_, 'prayers *raised* to the goddess V.', and it is unsurprising therefore that L&S, as lexicographers rather than prescriptive grammarians, can offer only scant guidance


That makes a lot of sense, and all examples from the Vulgata - though post-Classical - follow this verbal pattern. For the sake of emphasizing that, I edited my previous posts and put the verbs in *bold types and blue color*. The pairs of verb+noun used throughout the Vulgata are _*multiplico preces, fundo preces, fero (tulisti) preces, habeo preces, prosterno preces, offero preces, effundo preces* _and Latin certainly would not be short of other verbs as _tollo (sublateo) _in order to image the activity of prayer.

Just now I recalled a verse that is paradigmatic, biblically speaking, on prayer - though it says _oratio _and not _prex:
*Dirigatur oratio mea* sicut incensum *in conspectu tuo* ; elevatio manuum mearum sacrificium vespertinum. (Sl 141:2 clm)._
Many modern translations of this verse in particular render _dirigatur_, contextually, as _raising up, elevating_ (obviously because the smoke of incense raises up, being lighter than air), an idea that is reinforced by the second clause with _elevatio manuum mearum _and that is universally associated with prayer to "whomever be" on High.

One of the quotes above gives additional confirmation to Scholiast's post, in that both the Hebrew as well the Greek version of the Septuagint have no verb at all in the second clause, but St Jerome added one in the Vulgata, that grammar seems to demand:
_Hæc passus sum absque iniquitate manus meæ, cum [haberem] mundas *ad Deum preces*. (Jó 16:17 clm)_
In most modern translations, there is a verb either between brackets or in _[italic and gray color]_, in order to show it was not present in the original text.

@Scholiast: from all quotes above, read in the light of your explanation, I got the impression that what actually determines the regency, in such a case, is rather the verb than the noun, be the verb explicit or implied. Did I get it right?


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## Scholiast

salvete amici, praesertim metaphrastes



metaphrastes said:


> @Scholiast: from all quotes above, read in the light of your explanation, I got the impression that what actually determines the regency, in such a case, is rather the verb than the noun, be the verb explicit or implied. Did I get it right?



That is very much my 'feeling'—but based on no such exact textual reference as you have supplied. Rather, just from years (nay, decades!) of reading and teaching Classical Latin, and I would be happy to be corrected or disabused of any misapprehension on my own part.

Σ


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