# un vs. vin -- the claim of different vowel sounds



## Slim Harpo

Bonjour,

I have noticed, in two different textbooks, a distinction claimed between the vowel sound in the words "un" and "vin". Other textbooks consider these sounds to be identical. My guess is that there is an extremely subtle difference, which most textbooks do not consider sufficient for a phonetic rule. Personally I was never aware of a distinction. I am currently helping a beginner with his French, and in my view, those textbooks that teach that distinction are adding an unnecessary complication to the teaching of French. But I'm interested in hearing from native speakers in France -- how real is this distinction to you? (Obviously it cannot be a complete fantasy, if at least two different textbooks claim it.)

Toute idée est la bienvenue -- merci beaucoup de votre aide


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## Grop

I think it is safe to consider all these -un -in -ain -ein are the same.

I suspect there may have been a difference in the past, and it might also be found in some local accents, but you don't need to deal with it: French natives don't.


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## Slim Harpo

Merci Grop!  This confirms my belief that it is ridiculous to make such a distinction in a beginner's textbook. And these are not old textbooks I'm speaking of. C'est idiot!


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## suzanne joy

Very interesting!

I hear the difference... my husband is a FLE prof, and he suggested that I write these examples to demonstrate the accent:

un vin

The sound of "vin" is a higher nasal than "un"... the mouth changes position from one word to the other.

These two don't have the same sound when he pronounces them, and it's really evident when the two are pronounced right next to each other...  He's Parisian, if that makes any difference.

un brun, un brin...different, non?  Anyway, all the phonetics classes I ever took made a distinction between these two sounds, and they're absolutely given different IPA symbols... Is there anyone else with a thought on this?   Is the distinction really disappearing from actual spoken French in some areas?


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## wildan1

the nasal sound in _un, brun, jeûn_ was originally distinct from the sound in _fin, craint, thym_, but it has disappeared in the last 30-50 years. You will not hear younger people make this distinction. _Un_ now rhymes with _fin._

That's what the linguists say, anyway...

It is indeed silly to have young learners worry about this nowadays!


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## Parigigi

In the South, some would say : "veine-té-un" or "un bon verre de véing". But it's local. In Paris, nobody really distinguishes them. 

" The sound of "vin" is a higher nasal than "un"... the mouth changes position from one word to the other." That's pretty true, but noone really makes the effort anymore.


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## Grop

After giving it more thougth I agree, Suzanne, that a subtle difference may exist (and I admit it is slightly different when I say brun or brin). But I also think you can only hear it with a lot of good will, and that it does not matter for a beginner.


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## suzanne joy

Interesting!  Thanks for the responses.  I guess Philippe's just a purist... along with those linguistics profs... (And sorry for highjacking your thread, Slim Harpo!)


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## Hakro

When I was in school some fifty years ago I was taught that _-un_ and _-in_ are pronounced in a different way except in Paris.


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## walnsal

I've been struggling with this very issue. I have a _*Traveler's French Dictionary*_ which says word _un,_ and the letters _in _in _vin,_ have the same nasal sound. But this is not what I hear French folks speak.



So, may I suggest the following, as this is what I have observed? 

_Un _is pronounced like the _un _in _un_cle. It sounds like a grunt. 
_Vin, _on the other hand, is pronounced like _van _in English, but with a nasal _n,_ of course.
D'accord, anyone?


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## Grop

Hello walnsal, I don't think un sounds like the un in uncle, or that vin sounds like van. Now it may depend on your dialect of English, and on your dialect of French.

Are you editing said dictionary?


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## dawid

> I've been struggling with this very issue. I have a _*Traveler's French Dictionary*_ which says word _un,_ and the letters _in _in _vin,_ have the same nasal sound. But this is not what I hear French folks speak.
> 
> 
> 
> So, may I suggest the following, as this is what I have observed?
> 
> _Un _is pronounced like the _un _in _un_cle. It sounds like a grunt.
> _Vin, _on the other hand, is pronounced like _van _in English, but with a nasal _n,_ of course.
> D'accord, anyone?



*Pas d'accord!* 



> When I was in school some fifty years ago I was taught that _-un_ and _-in_ are pronounced in a different way except in Paris.


*
Totalement d'accord!*

I'm Parisian. I have never heard any difference between un, ein, ain, in. I agree that the difference of sounds, whether it is nasal or from a different mouth position, comes from a classical education (not that it is bad though) or from a local accent. 

I think if any Parisian say "un vin" the only reason why the mouth changes position is because of the -v-. If you say "Un -in de cette région... blablabla", without saying the -v- but thinking of the actual word "vin", you should not see your mouth moves. 

If you want to be a purist, it's French ethymology that you should be interested in. I don't think the first idea was to put different sounds through the whole language. Some words have been modified because of their latin origin. And people then have changed their pronunciation through centuries. 

I also think you shouldn't bother with such a small issue. If you don't make a difference between un and vin and all the other ones, all French will definitely understand you.


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## Albert 50

In many parts of Canada (specifically in the French-speaking parts of Manitoba where I spent my youth) there is a clear difference between the nasal sound of "un" and the sound in "vin".

When I worked in France (Paris) for six years I noticed that very little, if any, diffrerence was made. I continue to pronounce these sounds differently because "my people" spoke/speak that way. Its probably a "small issue" but, at least in most parts of Canada, the difference is audible.

Cordialement
Albert


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## TucsonCilou

As a French native, I cinserely would say no difference. But perhaps depending on the words the "in, ain..." sound is in, it may have a slight tiny difference. But don't worry about it!


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## Nicomon

Albert 50 said:


> In many parts of Canada (specifically in the French-speaking parts of Manitoba where I spent my youth) there is a clear difference between the nasal sound of "un" and the sound in "vin".


 I agree with Albert. Same goes in Quebec. A recurrent topic on this forum...

Here's a (bilingual) *interesting article* about the 4 nasal vowels, that gil (post #22) gave a link to in *this thread*. *You can listen to them.*

There is also this *other thread* (and yet other links inside).


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## bingface

There's not supposed to be a difference?! Tous mes profs m'ont trompées!


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## doodlebugger

Dans le midi, avec l'accent, il y a une différence audible entre _brun_ et _brin_.
Mais certainement pas de quoi embrouiller les étudiants de la langue de Molière !


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## dawid

> There's not supposed to be a difference?! Tous mes profs m'ont trompé/ée! (if you are a boy/girl)



Well... perhaps it's the reason why English people have an accent when speaking French


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## baixiaoming

i think it's better to distinguish them between each other...


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## bingface

dawid said:


> Well... perhaps it's the reason why English people have an accent when speaking French



"Trompée" parce que je suis une fille, n'est-ce pas? 

And I guess it must just be my Midwest accent forcing it's way through. I could swear I learned that "vin" was pronounced to rhyme with "can't".


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## dawid

> "Trompée" parce que je suis une fille, n'est-ce pas?



That's exactly right!

As for the accent thing, honestly everybody could see that even French people disagree because they come from different regions. I think French is quite difficult and easy for that: there's no one French. Every word can be pronounced differently even by the same person, according to his/her mood, the context etc. 

You won't hear the same sound for Bonjour! whether the person is happy, depressed, going to work, rushing, sad, laughing, shy, happy to see you again after on year, imitating some regional accent, presenting a show on TV etc.

I could easily say "vin" with 10 different sounds. 

Not only that, but every region has also its own accent, and other sounds... 

It's exactly the same with English. I remember an Irish friend saying Boy and noice to say Bye and nice... The Aussie "maaate" and English "mate" are definitely not the same sound either. And so on...


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## bingface

dawid said:


> That's exactly right!
> 
> As for the accent thing, honestly everybody could see that even French people disagree because they come from different regions. I think French is quite difficult and easy for that: there's no one French. Every word can be pronounced differently even by the same person, according to his/her mood, the context etc.
> 
> You won't hear the same sound for Bonjour! whether the person is happy, depressed, going to work, rushing, sad, laughing, shy, happy to see you again after on year, imitating some regional accent, presenting a show on TV etc.
> 
> I could easily say "vin" with 10 different sounds.
> 
> Not only that, but every region has also its own accent, and other sounds...
> 
> It's exactly the same with English. I remember an Irish friend saying Boy and noice to say Bye and nice... The Aussie "maaate" and English "mate" are definitely not the same sound either. And so on...



Je comprends. It just blew my mind that all my teachers have lead me astray! I mean, I didn't even notice it when I studied there. But then, le compréhension orale was always my weakest area...


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## wildan1

It's not quite as simple as different accents.

The difference here is that the debate is whether French has one phoneme with two allophones (meaning the two different sounds have the same meaning) or two phonemes with different meanings.

In English b and v are always pronounced as distinct phonemes -- /bæt/ "bat" and /væt/ "vat" mean different things. 

In Spanish b and v are two allophones of the same sound -- /vaso/ "glass" and /baso/ "glass", when said outloud by different speakers, sound different but mean the same thing.

That is what we are debating. French is not clear on what kind of distincton there is between these two sounds. It was clear 100 years ago that they were different everywhere--maybe in another 50 to 100 years it will be clear again.


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## walnsal

Hello, all. This has been quite an experience. While doing my at-home studying of French, I was trying to decipher whether there is a difference between the pronunciation of the vowel sounds in the words _un_ and _vin_. So I simply googled the words and came upon our discussion group. I thought, “This is just what I was looking for.” But then I noticed that all of the postings were in February of 2008. So, when I added my posting as of October 22, 2009, I thought either the subject was dead or the interested parties were.

Lo and behold, it seems I started an mini-avalanche. I am thankful for the give-and-take everyone has generated. It is amazing how much feed-back there was to what I thought was such a simple question about two little words—five letters in all. And, you know, as I read each person’s comments, I felt myself thinking, yes, he or she is correct, even if the comments seemed to directly contradict each other. 

So, kindly excuse me if I wax a little philosophical and postulate that I believe you—and we—are all correct. Which means how we should pronounce these petite words is based on a combination of culture, accent, dialect, aural acuity (or even the lack thereof), _et cetera_, _et cetera_. Just listen to someone from Boston, Massachusetts, say “_park_ the _car_,” and you will see what I mean. And several of you have said the same thing: that it is not something to worry about.

As proof of this, I signed on to another chat room or blog and entered the words “_un vin_” to see what kind of response I would get. The site also has many words and expressions which include the words, and while most of the pronunciations sounded as if the words were homonyms (_i.e.,_ they rhymed), some did evidence distinctions. And this is what some of your postings have demonstrated. You can find the subject at “forvo.com.”

In conclusion, I think my attempt at eliciting a _consensus_ of a bright-line distinction in the pronunciation of the words in question was naïve. Therefore, I’d like to invite each and every one of you to share with me _un vin_ so we can not only resolve our differences about the subject at hand, but as to all of the world’s problems so we can all live happily-ever-after.


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## Keith Bradford

Two minor thoughts:

I've always assumed that the word *un* was an exception, and did rhyme with _vin_, but that other words ending in /-un/ didn't.
When I studied linguistics I learnt the value of *limiting pairs*.  These are two words or phrases where the words sound almost identical, but have to be pronounced differently if the meanings are to be kept distinct. E.g. there is a tiny but essential difference in English between "_white shoes_" and "_why choose?_" that makes them distinguishable in speech.  Wildan's _bat/vat_ are likewise a limiting pair.  I'd have thought the limiting pair here in French is _*brun/brin*_.  Are they absolutely identical?


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## Nicomon

Keith Bradford said:


> I'd have thought the limiting pair here in French is _*brun/brin*_. Are they absolutely identical?


Not in my mouth.   But then... when I pronounce _un vin_,  _un _and _vin_ don't rhyme either.


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## walnsal

So, Nicomon, just how do you pronounce each of the words in question, _*un*_ and _*vin*_? How does each sound?


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## Nicomon

walnsal said:


> So, Nicomon, just how do you pronounce each of the words in question, _*un*_ and _*vin*_? How does each sound?


 
Hello walnsal,

You may have not seen #15, that I copied (in part) below.



Nicomon said:


> Here's a (bilingual) *interesting article* about the 4 nasal vowels, that gil (post #22) gave a link to in *this thread*. *You can listen to them.*


  I personally pronounce :  _œ vɛ  _


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## jann

Nicomon, I think you're missing the tildas that (critically) indicate the nasalization of these sounds.  They only show properly in certain fonts. (And a couple of the tildas are missing on that UTex site too.) 

_un vin _- [œ̃] [vɛ̃]

At the risk of repeating information from the other threads Nicomon linked to... the non-nasals [ɛ] (as in _nef_) and [œ] (as in _neuf_) are a pair of vowels that fall in the "front open-mid" category of the IPA classification.  The difference between the two is that [œ] is "rounded" while [ɛ] is not.  If you are one of the people who maintain the distinction when you nasalize, you pronounce _un vin_ as [œ̃] [vɛ̃]. 

As people have said above, as is remarked on the UTex site in Nicomon's link, as is noted in the pronunciation section of the TLFI entry on _un_, etc., many people make no distinction, giving:
_
un vin _- [ɛ̃] [vɛ̃]

N.B. The IPA symbols here do not represent the "southern" pronunciation mentioned by Parigigi.  That's really a different matter entirely, not at all what French teachers are referring to when they tell their anglophone students that _un_ and _vin_ are different nasals.


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## Nicomon

Thank you for pointing this out jann. I never noticed that the tildes were missing.


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## Viobi

I pronounce the same as Nicomon, _un vin _- [œ̃]  [vɛ̃].
"_un_" is no exception as far as I'm concerned: it's pronounced exactly as in _brun_, alun, _importun _(_im _in here being pronounced [ɛ̃]), _embrun_, _emprunt_...
_empreinte _et _emprunte _sound very distinctly in my mouth. But then again, it's not general (not anymore, at the very least).

Edit:
A common joke when a someone says "Hein?" (instead of the formal "comment?") is to reply: "Deux! J'ai gagné!"
Sloppy pun, as I hear it!


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