# In-situ questions : "you are who ?"



## hadronic

Hello,

I was wondering which languages allow in-situ questions, colloquially or formally ?
In French, in-situ question is almost the rule colloquially. But I'm very bothered when I'm trying to use this in English, most of the time people won't understand at all. 
"Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ?
"Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?"
"La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?"


----------



## CapnPrep

hadronic said:


> I was wondering which languages allow in-situ questions, colloquially or formally ?


Have a look at this map. For more information, click on "chapter text". This is a large-scale typological survey, though, so the treatment of each individual language is necessarily simplified. (For example, you will probably disagree with their classification of French.)


----------



## Ana_Ca

I'm not sure about all the Slavic languages, but in the colloquial Russian (as it has free word order) such type of questions can be used. 
So, the questions like 
"Ty kto?" (you (are) who?) as well as "Kto ty?" (Who (are) you?).
"Eto gde?" (It (is) where?) = "Gde eto?" (where (is) it?).
"Ty kak?" (You (are) how?) = "Kak ty?" (How are you?)
are very common.


----------



## sound shift

This type of question is sometimes found in colloquial English.
"And that means _what_ in this particular case? is an example, but most questions in English are not in-situ and I am afraid I do not know if there is a "rule" about the situations in which they are feasible.


----------



## Forero

I know that even in formal English we use _in situ_ questions when the asker already knows the answer, for example when a teacher poses a question for students, or when a preacher or other orator is "spelling out" a logical connection:

_And this type of government is called what?_

_Jesus asks "Whose image, and whose inscription?". God created what in his own image? And the shema is to be carried where and written where? So our hearts and minds and heads and hands belong to Whom?
_
English also has no problem with mixed questions, such as "Who was who?" and "What's what?"

Another situation (pardon the pun) that calls for an _in situ_ question is when we are not sure we have heard something right:

_The judge said who was responsible for the documents and who forgot?

_Are the French examples used differently?


----------



## CapnPrep

Forero said:


> Are the French examples used differently?


Yes. In addition to the English uses you mentioned (which also exist in French), _in situ_ _wh_-questions can also just be ordinary requests for information in spoken French. hadronic's examples simply correspond to English "When do you think it'll be ready?" "Who do you think you are?" "Where is Cecile's party going to be, do you know?"


----------



## artion

This type of question is used in spoken Greek, too. Usually gives some extra emphasis to the whole question. 
- Let's go.
- To go where?

Also, in the case that the asking person wants a repetition of the answer.
- Who is this man?
- He is John.
- He is who?
- John, I said.


----------



## Forero

Hi, Hadronic.

I am quite surprised that your _in-situ_ questions would not always be understood by English speakers. We use _in-situ_ questions often, usually with a nuanced feel to them, but sometimes we use them just because it is easier than having to rearrange.

How would you translate your examples?


----------



## jazyk

It is possible in Portuguese:

"Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? - (Tu) pensas que isso será bom para quando?
"Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" - Não, mas (tu) te tomas por quem?
"La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?" - A festa de Cecília vai acontecer onde, (tu) sabes?


----------



## jmx

In Spanish, in-situ questions have a limited use, roughly as in English, and not the extensive use typical of French.


----------



## englishman

CapnPrep said:


> Yes. In addition to the English uses you mentioned (which also exist in French), _in situ_ _wh_-questions can also just be ordinary requests for information in spoken French. hadronic's examples simply correspond to English "When do you think it'll be ready?" "Who do you think you are?" "Where is Cecile's party going to be, do you know?"



"Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? = "You think that it'll be ready when ?"
"Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" = "No but who do you think you are ?"
"La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?"     = "Cecile's party, where's it taking place, do you know ?"

I'm not seeing the problem here. How is this different in French to the similar constructions I've given above ? They're all good (if colloquial) English, no ?


----------



## Forero

englishman said:


> "Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? = "You think that it'll be ready when ?"
> "Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" = "No but who do you think you are ?"
> "La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?"     = "Cecile's party, where's it taking place, do you know ?"
> 
> I'm not seeing the problem here. How is this different in French to the similar constructions I've given above ? They're all good (if colloquial) English, no ?


They are good colloquial English, and certainly understandable, as are these, in my estimation:

_No, but you think you are who?
Cecile's party, it's going to take place where, you know?_

I tend to not believe a native English speaker could have any trouble understanding these. I have asked the original poster for the translations that caused a problem, but the original poster seems to have disappeared.


----------



## jmx

Having studied both languages, I am pretty sure that in-situ questions are much more common in French than in English. In French, they have become sort of "standard".


----------



## englishman

jmartins said:


> Having studied both languages, I am pretty sure that in-situ questions are much more common in French than in English. In French, they have become sort of "standard".



Can you give an example of such a question that is possible in French but not in English, please ?


----------



## jmx

englishman said:


> Can you give an example of such a question that is possible in French but not in English, please ?


No, I can't, but my point is simply to confirm what the opening post said:


hadronic said:


> In French, in-situ question is almost the rule colloquially.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

englishman said:


> "Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? = "You think that it'll be ready when ?"
> "Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" = "No but who do you think you are ?"
> "La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?"     = "Cecile's party, where's it taking place, do you know ?"
> 
> I'm not seeing the problem here. How is this different in French to the similar constructions I've given above ? They're all good (if colloquial) English, no ?



Yes, you've got the point for this one: 
"Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? = "You think that it'll be ready when ?"

But for the following two sentences, I don't think so, first  this one:
"Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" = "No but who do you think you are ?" (that would correspond to the French question : ''Pour qui vous prenez-vous?"). So it would rather be impossible to have the equivalent in English : *''You think you are who?*''

Same for the third sentence =
"La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?"     = "Cecile's party, where's it taking place, do you know ?" (that would translate : "La fête de Cécile, où va-t-elle avoir lieu?"). Another impossible English question = *"Cecile's party, it's taking place where?"

My take is that English doesn't use the equivalent forms...
*


----------



## hadronic

Yes, I'm still here 

I think the issues I have in English are twofold :
- English may allow it, but it most of the time doesn't sound natural at all,
- I may have difficulty to render a correct questioning melodical pattern to the whole sentence, letting the people hesitating between a question or an affirmation...


----------



## hadronic

Ferero just said he would allow :
_No, but you think you are who?
Cecile's party, it's going to take place where, you know?_

Side note : I'm not sure the French "non mais" should be translated as "no but"...


----------



## englishman

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Yes, you've got the point for this one:
> "Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? = "You think that it'll be ready when ?"



OK.



> But for the following two sentences, I don't think so, first  this one:
> "Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" = "No but who do you think you are ?" (that would correspond to the French question : ''Pour qui vous prenez-vous?"). So it would rather be impossible to have the equivalent in English : *''You think you are who?*''


This is entirely possible. It's more usually modified to something like: "And you think you're *who*, exactly ?" with stress on the word "who".



> Another impossible English question = "Cecile's party, it's taking place where?"


This is absolutely fine, and very common (though again you would probably add "exactly" or "d'you know" to the end of the sentence.
*



			My take is that English doesn't use the equivalent forms...
		
Click to expand...

*As far as I can tell, English uses very similar forms, and very frequently. I wouldn't say that they are the norm, but they're rather common.

Now I'm confused as to what exactly is an in-situ question, though. Why did you invert the word order in a couple of my examples ? I don't see why that makes the question be considered as in-situ.


----------



## englishman

hadronic said:


> Ferero just said he would allow :
> _No, but you think you are who?
> Cecile's party, it's going to take place where, you know?_
> 
> Side note : I'm not sure the French "non mais" should be translated as "no but"...



You're right. I guess it's more like "And just who do you think you are ?" or "Really ! Who do you think you are ?"

It doesn't affect the main point under discussion, though.


----------



## englishman

Forero said:


> They are good colloquial English, and certainly understandable, as are these, in my estimation:
> 
> _No, but you think you are who?
> Cecile's party, it's going to take place where, you know?_
> 
> I tend to not believe a native English speaker could have any trouble understanding these. I have asked the original poster for the translations that caused a problem, but the original poster seems to have disappeared.



I didn't see this post earlier. Yes, I agree; this is standard, common English, and clearly used on both sides of the pond. (Any Aussies want to comment on how these sound to them ?)


----------



## englishman

hadronic said:


> Yes, I'm still here
> 
> I think the issues I have in English are twofold :
> - English may allow it, but it most of the time doesn't sound natural at all,



Can you give an example which sounds unnatural  to you ? There may be instances where it is not often used but I'm not sure there are ever any sentences that are impossible to formulate in this way.



> - I may have difficulty to render a correct questioning melodical pattern to the whole sentence, letting the people hesitating between a question or an affirmation...


I suspect that this is more likely to be the problem, rather than a lack of comprehension due to the form of the question itself.


----------



## Forero

englishman said:


> Now I'm confused as to what exactly is an in-situ question, though. Why did you invert the word order in a couple of my examples ? I don't see why that makes the question be considered as in-situ.


I think we're talking about _in-situ_ interrogatives like _wh-_ words and _how_ as opposed to interrogatives moved to the front (and causing subject-verb inversion). Of course interrogatives as subjects stay _in situ_.

I have to say that interrogatives _in situ_ are actually easier to understand than the more common fronted ones, and easier to handle when formulating a question.

But I am curious in what sense they are more "normal" in French. I suspect it is due to emotional connotations sometimes associated with the form in English.





hadronic said:


> Ferero just said he would allow :
> _No, but you think you are who?
> Cecile's party, it's going to take place where, you know?_
> 
> Side note : I'm not sure the French "non mais" should be translated as "no but"...


It shouldn't, but I do not understand _non mais _very well.

 A more common sentence in English would be:

_So you think you're who?_

 but I don't want to presume it means the same as the _non mais_ sentence.


----------



## hadronic

Examples I don't think could work in English:_
(I've been waiting for 30min now,) You come when ?
(Oh, your daughter is wonderful,) She is how old ?
(Nice to meet you,) Your name is what ?_
all three are pure informational questions, not rhetorical, i.e. not in the sense of "What did you just say ?? your name is _what_ ? John Lennon ?!"


----------



## englishman

hadronic said:


> Examples I don't think could work in English:_
> (I've been waiting for 30min now,) You come when ?
> (Oh, your daughter is wonderful,) She is how old ?
> (Nice to meet you,) Your name is what ?_
> all three are pure informational questions, not rhetorical, i.e. not in the sense of "What did you just say ?? your name is _what_ ? John Lennon ?!"



(The first sentence should be "You came when ?", by the way).

These are all fine, and again commonly used. The only way in which the could be inappropriate is that, in English, they sound rather agressive when used in their raw form, as given above. We usually soften them in various ways:

"30 minutes ? And you came when ?"
"Your daughter, she is how old, exactly ?"
"Your name is what, Sir ? I'm afraid I didn't hear you clearly."


----------



## Outsider

jazyk said:


> It is possible in Portuguese:
> 
> "Tu pense que ca sera bon pour quand" ? - (Tu) pensas que isso será bom para quando?***
> "Non mais tu te prends pour qui ?" - Não, mas (tu) te tomas por quem?
> "La fete de Cecile, elle va avoir lieu où, tu sais ca ?" - A festa de Cecília vai acontecer onde, (tu) sabes?


While indeed possible when expressing emphasis, I would say that such constructs sound too abrupt in neutral speech, in Portuguese.

***I think it would rather be "Pensas que isso vai estar pronto _quando_?"


----------



## Aydintashar

There are interesting situations in Turkish:

- Bu kitabı okumayan kişi kendisine güvenemez. (He who has not read this book, may not rely on himself).

- _Hangi _kitabı okumayan kişi kendisine güvenemez? (He who has not read _which _book, may not rely on himself?).
- Bu _neyi _okumayan kişi kendisine güvenemez? (He who has not read this _what_, may not rely on himself?).
- Bu kitabı _ne yapan_ kişi kendisine güvenemez? (He who has not _done what_ with this book, may not rely on himself?).
- Bu kitabı okumayan _kim _kendisine güvenemez? (_Who _who has not read this book, may not rely on himself?).
- Bu kitabı okumayan kişi kendisine _ne yapamaz_? (He who has not read this book, may not _do what_ on himself?).

I hope you will not get confused. The important thing is that, they are all natural questions.


----------



## Istriano

_Você conhece *quem*? _*Whom *do you know? [in situ]
_*Quem *você conhece?_ *Whom *do you know?
_*Quem *conhece você? _*Who *knows you?


----------



## hadronic

englishman said:


> (The first sentence should be "You came when ?", by the way).
> 
> 
> "30 minutes ? And you came when ?"
> "Your daughter, she is how old, exactly ?"
> "Your name is what, Sir ? I'm afraid I didn't hear you clearly."



(For the first sentence, I meant sth like "I've been waiting for you for 30 minutes and you're not here yet, when are you coming ?)

Your renderings are exactly what I don't want my initial questions to be, ie kind of rhetorical questions, as a recall of something you already knew at some point in the past, or that show surprise, suspicion, misunderstanding etc...
Here, I'm really into pure "first hand" informational questions.


----------



## englishman

hadronic said:


> (For the first sentence, I meant sth like "I've been waiting for you for 30 minutes and you're not here yet, when are you coming ?)



OK. In that case, it should be: "And you're coming when". You have to use the present progressive form here.



> Your renderings are exactly what I don't want my initial questions to be, ie kind of rhetorical questions, as a recall of something you already knew at some point in the past, or that show surprise, suspicion, misunderstanding etc...
> 
> Here, I'm really into pure "first hand" informational questions.


You've misunderstood me. None of these are rhetorical questions. If I understand your expression correctly, they are all "first hand" informational questions. To be explicit:

"You're coming when ?" is semantically identical to "When are you coming ?" but sounds less polite  (in some circumstances) so is usually softened with additional filler words. The same holds true for the other examples I gave. So for example, we could have:

"John, when are you coming to the party ?"
"8 o'clock"
"And Pete, you're coming when ?"

(with slight stress on the word when)

Another example of common usage of an in-situ question:

"Hello, I'd like to register my daughter with this surgery."
"Thank you Sir. She is how old, exactly ?"

(with slight stress on the word how)

Do you see any problem with these ? If so, I'm confused, because they're standard English.


----------



## clevermizo

This phenomenon occurs regularly in Egyptian dialects of Arabic (and maybe others too).


----------

