# Lord (Christianity)



## peaceforHim

I have a Muslim friend (I am Christian) [...] (Moderator's Note: Split from another thread) He also says there is not a word/concept in Arabic for "Lord". I read that "Lord" could be "Rabb" or "Sayyid". He says the closest word/concept is Khaleefa (what I know as Caliph). Any help is appreciated


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## Masjeen

Lord = al-mawla
my lord = mawlai
also "Rabb" and "Sayyid" can be used.
[...] (reply to another question)


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## shafaq

[...] (reply to another question)
Lord= ربّ. Rabb
lord= سيّد sayyid, and  موْلى  mawlaa


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## Razin'

[...] (reply to another question)
As for the Christian concept of "Lord" , i think رب (Rabb) is the closest answer.


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## Abu Rashid

> He says the closest word/concept is Khaleefa (what I know as Caliph).  Any help is appreciated



He probably said this because from a Muslim perspective a "lord" in respect to a human being just means someone who has guardianship or authority or rulership over you, whereas "lord" in the religious context only refers to God almighty. In a Christian context this is obviously different.

The Christian Biblical word for lord is Kureos in the NT, and this word is probably most equivalent in Arabic to Sayyid or Mawlah since it conveys the meaning of a respected person, sir etc. As has been mentioned already. The word "Rubb" (cognate with the Biblical Hebrew/Aramaic Rabb from which rabbi derives) is used for Lord, but for Muslims is almost exclusively used for God almighty alone, except for in certain fixed expressions like "rubb al-bayt" (Lord of the manor), and using it in respect to a human being would be considered strange, even blasphemous, normally since it would suggest a polytheistic meaning.
[...] (reply to another question)


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> The word "Rubb" (cognate with the Biblical Hebrew/Aramaic Rabb from which rabbi derives) is used for Lord, but for Muslims is almost exclusively used for God almighty alone,



Isn't this how it's used by Christians too? In the Hebrew Bible, the word "adon" meaning "lord" is used in two senses: one's lord or master and God. However, to Christians, calling Jesus Christ "The Lord" is synonymous with calling God "The Lord" because of the doctrine of the trinity. Do you happen to know what Lord is in the Arabic Bible?

It's true in Hebrew _rav (_< older *rabb) means "master" so _rabbi_ means "my master." The root _r-b_ in Hebrew connotes "greatness" or "largeness." For example _pru u-*rvu* u-mil'u et ha-arets_ ("Be fruitful and *multiply*(i.e. become many or great) and fill the earth," God's command to Adam and Eve). We find sages being called "rabbi" in the second temple era, but more traditional Hebrew word for "sage" or learned wise person is "7akham" (cognate with Arabic حاكم).

I have a suspicion that in the Arabic translation of the Bible, The Lord is rendered السيد. It reminds me of how in the Spanish Bible The Lord is El Señor. I haven't checked it though, hopefully someone can comment.


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## elroy

Razin' said:


> [...]As for the Christian concept of "Lord" , i think رب (Rabb) is the closest answer.


  As a Christian Arab, I can confirm that those are exactly the right words to use. 





Abu Rashid said:


> He probably said this because from a Muslim perspective a "lord" in respect to a human being just means someone who has guardianship or authority or rulership over you, whereas "lord" in the religious context only refers to God almighty. In a Christian context this is obviously different.


  What is the difference that you see? 





> The Christian Biblical word for lord is Kureos in the NT, and this word is probably most equivalent in Arabic to Sayyid or Mawlah since it conveys the meaning of a respected person, sir etc.


 "Lord," when referring to God, is always translated as رب in the Bible.

سيد is used to refer to human beings (it usually corresponds to the English word "master," as in "master and slave").  The word مولى does not appear in the Bible, as far as I know. 





> The word "Rubb" (cognate with the Biblical Hebrew/Aramaic Rabb from which rabbi derives) is used for Lord, but for Muslims is almost exclusively used for God almighty alone, except for in certain fixed expressions like "rubb al-bayt" (Lord of the manor), and using it in respect to a human being would be considered strange, even blasphemous, normally since it would suggest a polytheistic meaning.


 It's exactly the same in Christianity


clevermizo said:


> However, to Christians, calling Jesus Christ "The Lord" is synonymous with calling God "The Lord" because of the doctrine of the trinity.


 That's exactly right.





> Do you happen to know what Lord is in the Arabic Bible?
> 
> [...]
> 
> I have a suspicion that in the Arabic translation of the Bible, The Lord is rendered السيد.


 Nope, it's الرب.


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## peaceforHim

Thank you everyone for your input!!!


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## Abu Rashid

elroy,



> What is the difference that you see?


The word rubb is inherently tied into the concept of taw7eed in Islam. Any recognition of lordship beyond taw7eed is considered shirk. That's very different to the Christian concept. I don't think anyone could doubt the way we see it is very different.



> "Lord," when referring to God, is always translated as رب in the Bible.


That may well be how it's been translated, but I don't know if it's the best match for the Greek word. Since the Greek word doesn't actually seem to be related too much to the lordship of God, but more to the position of respect and authority people have over one another.

Likewise it's always translated into Lord in English, doesn't mean it's necessarily the most exact match. As clevermizo mentioned in Spanish it's translated to el senor, which would match more what I suggested.



> "Lord," when referring to God, is always translated as رب in the Bible.


Well the Greek word used is usually for human beings, not for deities. Hence my suggestion rubb is probably not as suitable as sayyid.



> سيد is used to refer to human beings (it usually corresponds to the  English word "master," as in "master and slave").


Precisely, it's the word that refers to human beings, as does Kureos.



> It's exactly the same in Christianity


Well you're delving into what different religions think of different figures a bit too much there. I don't think you mean to steer the discussion in that direction, so I'll cut that line of discussion short.


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## Mahaodeh

Technically, ربّ does in fact mean "lord" as in 'master'; as the poet says:

فإذا انتشيت فأنني رب الخورنق والسدير === وإذا صحوت فإنني رب الشويهة والبعير
When I get drunk I am the Lord of Al-Khawarnaq and As-Sadeer (two pre-Islamic palaces)
and when I am sober I am the Lord of the sheep and camel

Pre-Islam Arabs used the word to mean master, but Islam reserved the use for God only (the same goes for the word عبد - a master would call his slave عبدي and a slave would call his master ربّي; after Islam it became مولاي وغلامي) so maybe the case is similar in Christianity and Judism.


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## cherine

Abu Rashid said:


> elroy,
> 
> The word rubb is inherently tied into the concept of taw7eed in Islam. Any recognition of lordship beyond taw7eed is considered shirk. That's very different to the Christian concept. I don't think anyone could doubt the way we see it is very different.


Abu Rashid,
I think you're the one who's taking this discussion to the religious field when it should be simply -and strictly- linguistic.
Both Muslim and Christian Arabs translate the word Lord as رب when it refers to God. 
We -Muslims and Christians- translate it as السيد when the meaning is "master". And we also keep "rabb" in expressions like: رب البيت، رب الأسرة .


> That may well be how it's been translated, but I don't know if it's the best match for the Greek word. Since the Greek word doesn't actually seem to be related too much to the lordship of God, but more to the position of respect and authority people have over one another.


No matter what the Greek word actually means, the word Lord is still translated as rabb in Arabic.  Check the Qur'an and the Arabic translations of the Bible.
In some passages, Jesus is addressed as يا سيد when people spoke to him. But speaking about him, as a God, the reference/word used is رب .


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## londonmasri

Very very briefly:
It may be more apt to translate the two as follows:

Lord (diety in this context?) = ilaah (having said that Lord means many things... see below)
Rabb =  sustainer

Both words are used with the same purpose generally and for all intents and purposes are refer to 'the almighty'. 

Note muslims say _la *ilaha* illa-allah (_as one half of the proclamation of faith). You father or mother or anyone can be your _rabb_, but not your ilaah. Allah refers to himself as _ilaah_ and _rabb_ in the quran (it would be interesting to know which one is used more...)

Nevertheless, Lord in the English language does not specifically imply 'diety' (e.g. Lord of the Manor).  As such,_ la-ilaha illa-allah_ is often translated as 'there is no *diety* worthy of worship other than Allah'.

Nice discussion 

Feel free to correct my mistakes.


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## Faylasoof

londonmasri said:


> Lord (diety in this context?) = ilaah (having said that Lord means many things... see below)
> Rabb = sustainer
> 
> Both words are used with the same purpose generally and for all intents and purposes are refer to 'the almighty'.


 
Not necessarily! Yes, this is true and you illustrate it well by mentioning the term _Lord of the Manor_.

The Arabic ربّ = _lord,_ in English (also, _master, owner, proprietor, father / head of the family _[رب العائلة]). 

In fact, in English one also uses the terms _lord _or _lord and master_, in strictly common, secular, non-religious usage which would also be translated back into Arabic as ربّ, again in a non-theological sense. 

But ربّ (and الرَّبُّ esp.) can mean Lord (for God). Here is one example of the Biblical use of الرَّبُّ to mean Lord:

فَنَظَرَ الرَّبُّ إِلَى هَابِيلَ وَقُرْبَانِهِ، 5وَلكِنْ إِلَى قَايِينَ وَقُرْبَانِهِ لَمْ يَنْظُرْ​ (التكوين  Genesis , 4)    ​ 
.. and here of سیَّد to mean Lord / Master:

وَلَمَّا دَخَلَ يَسُوعُ كَفْرَنَاحُومَ، جَاءَ إِلَيْهِ قَائِدُ مِئَةٍ يَطْلُبُ إِلَيْهِ وَيَقُولُ:«يَا سَيِّدُ، غُلاَمِي مَطْرُوحٌ فِي الْبَيْتِ مَفْلُوجًا مُتَعَذِّبًا جِدًّا».​ 
(Mathew,8:5) ​
In the Quran too ربّ is used to mean Lord (i.e. God):

إِذْ قَالَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ أَسْلِمْ قَالَ أَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ​ [Al Baqarah ,131]​ 
_Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."_ [2:131] - translator Yusuf Ali


It is always in this sense that we use ربّ in Urdu- _specific meaning_ of God or Lord (theological term) and not _lord_ - common usage. 




elroy said:


> The word مولى does not appear in the Bible, as far as I know.


 
Well, in _some versions_ of the Arabic Bible, the word موْلى_ is _used. Here all three, موْلى, السيد and رب are used in the same sentence!


واغلق على المصريين في يد مولى قاس فيتسلط عليهم ملك عزيز يقول السيد رب الجنود​ 
[مولى قاس = cruel master]​ (Isaiah, 19:4)​ 
BTW, موْلى can mean _both_ “master” or “slave”. We had a brief discussion about this earlier but, as usual, I can’t find the thread!

... and as for _submission_, it would be either خضوع or استسلام.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> The word rubb is inherently tied into the concept of taw7eed in Islam. Any recognition of lordship beyond taw7eed is considered shirk. That's very different to the Christian concept. I don't think anyone could doubt the way we see it is very different.


 I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. 





> That may well be how it's been translated, but I don't know if it's the best match for the Greek word. Since the Greek word doesn't actually seem to be related too much to the lordship of God, but more to the position of respect and authority people have over one another.
> 
> Likewise it's always translated into Lord in English, doesn't mean it's necessarily the most exact match. As clevermizo mentioned in Spanish it's translated to el senor, which would match more what I suggested.
> 
> Well the Greek word used is usually for human beings, not for deities. Hence my suggestion rubb is probably not as suitable as sayyid.
> 
> Precisely, it's the word that refers to human beings, as does Kureos.


 Do you know Ancient Greek?  Are you sure that the Greek word was used _exclusively_ for human beings?

Anyway, regardless of what the Greek word meant, the best translation of "Lord" (when it refers to God) is undoubtedly رب.  I would even go so far as to say that any other translation is downright wrong.


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## Abu Rashid

cherine,



> I think you're the one who's taking this discussion to the religious field when it should be simply -and strictly- religious.



Not really. Only in the context of the questions. I tried carefully to tread about the sensibilities about what each religion considers to be Lord, but some distinctions need to be made. The Islamic & Christian concepts of Lord simply aren't the same.



> Both Muslim and Christian Arabs translate the word Lord as رب when it refers to God.



In some cases yes. As mentioned above in some cases no. 



> No matter what the Greek word actually means, the word Lord is still translated as rabb in Arabic.



Well it would relate back to the Greek meaning because that's where the Christian concept of Lord ultimately derives from. So mentioning it would be quite relevant I think.



> In some passages, Jesus is addressed as يا سيد when people spoke to him. But speaking about him, as a God, the reference/word used is رب .



In English it's almost always translated as Lord, so this only proves further how much of a disparity there is in the way the terms are translated. It's not as clean cut and straight forward as you are suggesting.


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## Abu Rashid

elroy,



> Do you know Ancient Greek?  Are you sure that the Greek word was used _exclusively_ for human beings?



No I don't, but the Bible's translators and exegetes state this:

Kureos:
*1)* he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
*a)* the possessor and disposer of a thing
*1)* the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
*2)* in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
*b)* is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
*c)* this title is given to: God, the Messiah

You'll note that the only mention of God is in reference to it being 'given' to Jesus (pbuh). Meaning that before this, it simply didn't have that connotation, and that this connotation is only a result of it being 'given' to Jesus (pbuh).



> I would even go so far as to say that any other translation is downright wrong.



Quite obviously many translators of the Bible disagree with you then.


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## elroy

Okay, obviously the word "lord" means "master," etc. but in the Bible God is described as "THE Lord," "THE Lord of Lords," etc., which automatically gives the word a completely different connotation.  He is the Master of the Universe, the Ruler of All, the Eternal Sovereign, the Everlasting God.  The definite article makes a huge difference, and I suspect this is just as true in Greek as it is in other languages.


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## Faylasoof

From the discussion we are having it is clear that Lord / lord can have both secular and religious signification. Though it is true that in the literature of the different dialects of Ancient Greek ( Epic / Homeric, Attic, Ionic etc.) the word _κυριος_ was associated with both humans and the Greek gods, by the time the Septuagint - _The Old Testament in Koine Greek_ – was completed in 132 BCE, this word is seen frequently associated with ‘o θεος – the Greek word for God. So even prior to its use in the New Testament, _κυριος_ had already acquired a more specialised use. This we can illustrate by going from the Hebrew Old Testament all the way to Arabic and English Bibles, via Koine Greek. Quite at random I’ve chosen Genesis 4:6:
 
The Hebrew Bible 
 וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל־קָיִן לָמָּה חָרָה לָךְ וְלָמָּה נָפְלוּ פָנֶיךָ׃
 Genesis 4:6

 [ יְהוָה is regarded as the _unutterable _name of God. This _kitev_ (written) form had a _qere_ (read) form “Adonai”. It is not relevant here to discuss how and why “Adonai” came to be used. However, there was / is a question about how best to pronounce the original _yhvh_ consonantal form since there may have been a case of vowel reversal in ancient times].

 The Hebrew word  יְהוָה was translated into Greek as κυριος ‘ο θεος = The Lord God.

The Septuagint  –  _The Old Testament in Koine Greek_ 
 και ειπεν κυριος ‘ο θεος τω καιν ινα τι περιλυπος εγενου και ινα τι συνεπεσεν το προσωπον σου;
 Genesis 4:6

The Arabic Bible
 فَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لِقَايِينَ: «لِمَاذَا اغْتَظْتَ؟ وَلِمَاذَا سَقَطَ وَجْهُكَ؟
 Genesis 4:6
 [In other places, instead of الرَّبُّ = The Lord, we see الرَّبُّ الإِلهُ = The Lord God = κυριος ‘ο θεος].
  

The English Bible
 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why is your expression downcast?
 Genesis 4:6


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