# אבד‎



## elroy

Could someone please help me out with the conjugation of this verb אבד in the future tense?  I'm specifically interested in the אני form (Hebrew spelling + transliteration please), but if someone would like to provide the full conjugation with a transliteration that would be great. 

Also, how is the past tense היא form pronounced?  _Avadet_?  I ask because _dt_ seems hard to pronounce, so I'm wondering if the pronunciation is facilitated by the addition of a vowel.

One last question: What is the infinitive and how is it pronounced?

Thanks!


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## pachyderm

Same as אכל:
אֹבַד, תֹּאבַד, תֹּאבְדִי, יֹאבַד, תֹּאבַד
נֹאבַד, תֹּאבְדוּ, תֹּאבַדְנָה, יֹאבְדוּ
(oVAD, toVAD... tovDU, toVADna...)
This verb is in a relatively high register, in a more colloquial language you'll hear הלך לאיבוד or even נֶאֱבַד.
The infinitive is לֶאֱבֹד, but is very seldom used.
אָבַדְתְּ is indeed pronounced "aVAdet", like עבדתְּ (you f. worked) or עמדת (you f. stood). 

One other note: אבד belongs to a group of seven irregular (though very common) verbs: אבד, אכל, אמר, אהב, אחז, אבה, אפה; usually when the first root consonant is א the future paradigm is אֶאֱסֹף, תֶּאֱסֹף, תַּאַסְפִי etc.

(Data from פרופ' משה גושן-גוטשטיין, "הדקדוק העברי השימושי", 1996, הוצאת שוקן)


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## MiamianIsraeli

Is there a difference between this and the pi'el verb?


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## bat777

MiamianIsraeli said:


> Is there a difference between this and the pi'el verb?


 
In pa'al (which is the paradigm that pachyderm gave) the subject of the sentence is the one that is lost. 
In pi'el, the subject of the sentence lost something (in pi'el the verb becomes transitive- it must have an object, i.e. the thing that was lost).
Here is an example:

הספר אָבַד - The book is lost.
דני אִיבֵּד את הספר- Danny lost the book​I hope this is clear ​


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## MiamianIsraeli

Crystal. I had thought that the past participle was just an irregularity.


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## bat777

What past participle?


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## MiamianIsraeli

bat777 said:


> What past participle?



אבד/אבדה


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## elroy

MiamianIsraeli said:


> אבד/אבדה


 That is not the past participle, but the past tense (_he was lost_; _she was lost_). The past participle is אבוד.

And thanks to Pachyderm for the comprehensive and clear answer.


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## MiamianIsraeli

I'm still a bit confused. In ulpan they taught us that the past participle is אבד/אבדה

A "lost dog" would be כלב אבד/כלבה אבדה


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## pachyderm

I doubt your ulpan teachers taught you that (at least I hope they didn't)... Elroy is right, except for one correction: אבוד is the _present_ passive participle, Hebrew has only present participles.


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## elroy

pachyderm said:


> Elroy is right, except for one correction: אבוד is the _present_ passive participle,


 Hmm...I've never heard of that grammatical category.   I only know of present participles (like _interesting_) and past participles (like _interested_).





> Hebrew has only present participles.


  I suspect that you have an unconventional understanding of the term _present participle_.

A present participle is always active.
A past participle is passive.

I don't see how אבוד can be classified as a present participle.  Something that is אבוד is not actively losing anything; it itself is lost. 

Remember our discussion on מעניין and מעוניין? I would consider the former a present participle and the latter a past participle.


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## Flaminius

> I suspect that you have an unconventional understanding of the term _present participle_.


The reason passive participles are found in the present paradigm in most conjugation tables is beyond my ken but calling it a past participle does not make things better either.  The passive participle (existing for some _pa`al_ verbs only) usually functions as an adjective (cf. English _swollen_).  In other words a passive participle means something being in state of XXX right now.

English happens to use the name past participle for "interested," "biased," "swollen," "broken" and so on because they ultimately go back to Indo-European aorist stems.  This hardly applies to the Hebrew 1a2u3 participles.



> Remember our discussion on מעניין and מעוניין? I would consider the former a present participle and the latter a past participle.


However obsolete, _me`unyan_ has past conjugations (was interested in sth);
`unyanti
`unyanta
`unyant
etc.


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## elroy

I'm sorry, Flaminius, but I still don't see why it can't be considered a past participle.


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## pachyderm

I'd say the English grammatical term is a misnomer. A participle doesn't suggest a tense, only an _aspect_, i.e. time relative to the main verb. The English form I'd call a (passive) past participle is "having been done", not "done".


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## MiamianIsraeli

pachyderm said:


> I doubt your ulpan teachers taught you that (at least I hope they didn't)... Elroy is right, except for one correction: אבוד is the _present_ passive participle, Hebrew has only present participles.



I'm sure of it. Besides that I remember seeing a sign one time for כלבה אבדה in Ra'anana. Since Ra'anana has a large Anglo population I assumed that the writer didn't have a high level of Hebrew. Then, sometime later, it was pointed out as an irregularity in class.


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## elroy

pachyderm said:


> I'd say the English grammatical term is a misnomer. A participle doesn't suggest a tense, only an _aspect_, i.e. time relative to the main verb. The English form I'd call a (passive) past participle is "having been done", not "done".


 In English, "having been done" is a _perfect participle_.  "Having done" is also a perfect participle.  I guess you could distinguish the two by calling the former a "perfect passive participle" and the latter a "perfect active participle," but I've never come across these terms used in discussions of English grammar.

In any case, I'm not sure why you call _participle _a misnomer.  Do you have an authoritative source that states a definition of participle that contradicts the conventional one?

I can assure you that _done_ is a past participle in English, and it has been for decades.


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## Nunty

OK. I really hate showing how dumb I am, but I have to ask: _what is a participle_? Perfect or past or passive or active or any other kind? Please give examples in English and Hebrew, if possible with the same verb, because I have absolutely not understood the last several posts in this thread.


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## elroy

In English, a participle is a verb form that can be used as an adjective.

The present participle is the _-ing_ form, used (with the helping verb _be_) to form the progressive tenses. It is always active (the subject or the noun described _performs the action_).

The past participle is the form used to form the perfect tenses (with the helping verb _have_) and the passive voice (with the helping verb _be_). It often ends in _-ed_ or _-en_, but there are many irregular forms. When used as an adjective, it is always passive (the noun described _receives the action_). 

_(The copula and the linking verbs are not considered in the above descriptions, as they have no voice.)_

Examples:

present participle as verb: 

Am I *annoying* you with my questions?
He is *losing* his temper.
present participle as adjective: 

I could not sleep because of the *annoying* music.
I always root for the *losing* team.
past participle as verb (in passive construction): 

I am *annoyed* by your constant questions.
Many ideas are often *lost* in translation.
past participle as adjective: 

The *annoyed* man left the room in a huff.
There is no way to recover the *lost* funds.
As an adjective (it can't be part of a verb phrase), אבוד functions just like the _past participle_, and not the present participle, in English.


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## pachyderm

Elroy, when I used the word "misnomer" I didn't mean to suggest that the way_ you _use it is nonstandard in some sense, but that the term itself (_past_ participle) is misleading. I just didn't understand how "annoyed" in "I am annoyed" can be understood to convey a past-tense meaning.

MiamianIsraeli, כלבה אבדה (or better: אבדה כלבה) is not a noun phrase ("a lost dog") but a complete sentence ("a dog has been lost").


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## elroy

pachyderm said:


> Elroy, when I used the word "misnomer" I didn't mean to suggest that the way_ you _use it is nonstandard in some sense, but that the term itself (_past_ participle) is misleading. I just didn't understand how "annoyed" in "I am annoyed" can be understood to with a past-tense meaning.


 Ah!  Now I see what you mean! 

The _past_ part of _past participle_ has nothing to do with the past tense.  It is a reference to the _*passive*_ voice.  Now that you mention it, I guess _passive participle_ would be clearer, but for whatever reason, _past participle_ is the term that it used.  Similarly, _present participle_ is not a reference to the present tense, but to the _*active*_ voice.

But until there is a revolutionary change in grammatical terminology in English, I think it's accurate to consider אבוד a past participle.  In my opinion, it's more misleading to state that Hebrew has only present participles.


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## pachyderm

Perhaps, but I think grammar books written in English but describing other languages -- or at least the Ancient Greek and Latin textbooks I've seen -- don't use "past participle" in the sense of "passive present participle". So I suppose the level of confusion depends on which discipline you come from...


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## elroy

pachyderm said:


> Perhaps, but I think grammar books written in English but describing other languages -- or at least the Ancient Greek and Latin textbooks I've seen -- don't use "past participle" in the sense of "passive present participle".


 As I said earlier, I've never come across this term.  Is it really used?  (I've never formally studied Hebrew in English.) 

Personally, it would be clearer to me as an English speaker studying Hebrew if "past participle" were used - because it's something I could relate to.  "Passive present participle" would significantly confuse me.


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## MiamianIsraeli

elroy said:


> As I said earlier, I've never come across this term.  Is it really used?  (I've never formally studied Hebrew in English.)
> 
> Personally, it would be clearer to me as an English speaker studying Hebrew if "past participle" were used - because it's something I could relate to.  "Passive present participle" would significantly confuse me.


This may be going in circles, but the only way a present participle could be passive would be with "to be" e.g., the bill is being paid.


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## elroy

MiamianIsraeli said:


> This may be going in circles, but the only way a present participle could be passive would be with "to be" e.g., the bill is being paid.


 Correct, and even in that context the main verb is a past participle. 

I just thought of another reason "passive present participle" is problematic - past participles are not always used in the present tense: "I am annoyed," "I was annoyed," "I will be annoyed," etc.


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## Nunty

Well, I am no longer ashamed of being confused! Thank you for the examples and explanations.

Do I understand correctly that verbs like מובן and כתוב are past participles? Then what are הובן and passives like נכתב?


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> Do I understand correctly that verbs like מובן and כתוב are past participles? Then what are הובן and passives like נכתב?


 Those are normally conjugated verbs that express a tense.  The other two are adjectives that describe a state.


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## Nunty

elroy said:


> Those are normally conjugated verbs that express a tense.  The other two are adjectives that describe a state.


"Those"? "The other two"? Which? 

What do we call a participle in Hebrew? Do we have them at all? I am getting more and more confused.


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## MiamianIsraeli

Nun-Translator said:


> "Those"? "The other two"? Which?
> 
> What do we call a participle in Hebrew? Do we have them at all? I am getting more and more confused.



כתוב ומובן
would be past participles (read and understood).

The others describe passive states as in "it was written/it is being written" and "it was understood."


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## Nunty

Thanks, Miamian.


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## MiamianIsraeli

NP. It's not usual that I'm faster than Elroy.


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## Flaminius

*Miamian*,
_Katuv_ is not "read" but "written."

*NT*,
The Hebrew term for a participle is בינוני, hinting at its ambiguous rôle between an adjective and a verb.  Those participles that follow _pa`ul_ pattern are called בינוני סביל (passive participle) according to Shmuel Bolozky's _501 Hebrew Verbs_.

Present participle and past participle are misleading concepts since they are equally irrelevant to time.  As *Elroy *has written several times, present participles are active participles and past participles are passive participles (when used as an adjective; perfect with _have _auxiliary is another matter entirely).  Also note that they are taken out of English grammar books, to which proper Hebrew terms and standard translations are to be preferred.


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## MiamianIsraeli

Oops. I guess I wasn't awake at the time.


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## amikama

Flaminius said:


> The Hebrew term for a participle is בינוני, hinting at its ambiguous rôle between an adjective and a verb. Those participles that follow _pa`ul_ pattern are called בינוני סביל (passive participle) according to Shmuel Bolozky's _501 Hebrew Verbs_.


I always knew it as בינוני פעול, never heard of בינוני סביל. The active participle is called בינוני פּוֹעֵל. 

But now that I think of it, I think that בינוני פעיל and בינוני סביל are better names, since בינוני can be conjugated in בניינים other than the _pa'al_ one:
שמעתי חדשות *מטרידות* בטלוויזיה (active particle, binyan hif'il)
הכורסה ה*מרופדת* נוחה מאוד לישיבה (passive particle, binyan pu'al)


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