# Dutch: toch



## Chazzwozzer

Can anybody tell me when is toch used in a sentence? Is it a discourse particle or a declaratory word or something else?

How would you translate the slogan of Media Markt_(Ik ben toch niet gek!)_  into English?

Thanks in advance.


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## optimistique

Good question! *Toch* is a difficult one to explain, because there are two 'toch's.

But to start with the one from your example:

_Ik ben toch niet gek_ = *I'm not crazy!, As if/Like I'm crazy!*

The first is more litteral; you don't translate 'toch'! And that's exactly the point. I gave the second translation, because that one represents better the colouring of the sentence by 'toch'.

What 'toch' is all albout in this particular case, is in some way reproaching some person of thinking that the speaker is crazy. A rephrasing of the sentence would be '_Denk je soms dat ik gek ben?' _- _Do you think I'm crazy?
_They both have the same meaning.
In the case of Media Markt the context is like this: 

- Winkel X probeerde me deze DVD-speler voor veel te veel geld te verkopen, maar dat heb ik niet gedaan. Ik ging naar Media Markt; ik ben toch niet gek!

- Shop X tried to sell me this DVD-player for way too much money, but I didn't do that. I went to Media Markt instead. I'm not crazy!


It could however also indicate doubt:

_Ik heb toch niet teveel fooi gegeven?_ - I didn't give too much tip, did I?

I see now that you can always exchange this *'toch'* with: *'*_*do you think that.. ?'* - 'denk je soms dat.. ?'_
or 'you don't think.., do you?' - 'je denkt toch niet dat..?'
_*If it is seriously meant, then it indicates doubt. Is it sarcastically meant, then it indicates a sort of indignation.*_

Note that 'toch' is never stressed in these cases. Would it be, then you have another 'toch' with another meaning, but I don't want to confuse you too much!
I hope I've been clear and not been too long and elaborate!


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## Chazzwozzer

_"Waarom meer betalen dan nodig? Ik ben toch niet gek." _is the exact slogan that Media Markt has on its bags. Now, it makes sense. 

It has been very informative. Dank je wel!


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## Chazzwozzer

I've just come across the phrase "ja toch" and I'm not quite sure what it could mean. What about that?


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## optimistique

Chazzwozzer said:


> I've just come across the phrase "ja toch" and I'm not quite sure what it could mean. What about that?



Hi Chazzwozzer,

Actually, it's the same *toch* as in the Media Markt slogan. Here it is comparable to '_right' _in English, as in: _"So you'll help me, right?"

_This *toch* is asking for confirmation ('_tell me that it's true, what I'm saying, or tell me that you agree!' _That's what it's asking for, and thus what it means).
You'll have to give me a bit more context for a correct explanation. You could transcribe the MM-slogan as: "_Ik ben niet gek! Toch?" _Do you see how it works? By putting 'toch' you add more doubt. With 'toch' you are simply begging for confirmation.

When used with a lot of cynicism, it can also be used to emphasize your right (So more like: "_Don't you dare do anything else than agree with me!_"). 

_Hij moet niet zeuren. Ik heb mijn best gedaan. Meer kan ik niet doen! Ja toch?
He should not be complaining. I have done my best. That's all I can do! Isn't it so, then?
_ 
I hope my explanation has helped you!


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## Chazzwozzer

I've seen it here on a comment of the video.

I totally get you what you mean and it helps a lot as ever, but how about if it's used alone? Could it be more like a disapproval usage as in "Yeah, right..."?

Title of the website says "Je weet toch" so how do you interpret it "You know, right?" or "Like/as if you know."?


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## optimistique

Chazzwozzer said:


> I've seen it here on a comment of the video.
> 
> I totally get you what you mean and it helps a lot as ever, but how about if it's used alone? Could it be more like a disapproval usage as in "Yeah, right..."?
> 
> Title of the website says "Je weet toch" so how do you interpret it "You know, right?" or "Like/as if you know."?



It cannot be a disapproval. 'Yeah right...' would be: '_ja, tuurlijk_!'

If 'ja toch' used alone, you can not be sure that it has this meaning. It depends if the stress is on 'toch' or not. If it is, it means: _is it like this after all? _= at first it appeared to be not the case, while eventually it does.

*Je weet toch* is more referring to 'You have not forgotten that you know, have you?'. It's more like: I know that you know, so... it's no surprise/you should not be surprise that X is the case (whatever comes after 'toch').

My god, it must seem terribly complicated, but it's so difficult explaining something in a language that has no equivalent at all for it.


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## Chazzwozzer

It's very complicated indeed. I learn usage of toch step-by-step, so I believe it won't be that complicated to me, well, couple of years later. 

Dutch is a vey fun language to learn. Thank you VERY much, optimistique.


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## James0007

Just think about it's meaning.

Sometimes English people use "do" to stress the fact whether you did something or not.

You DID do that, didn't you?
Je hebt dat toch gedaan?

The "toch" in dutch is quite similar, but "toch" isn't a verb obviously.

When you're not sure whether something is the way it is, you use "toch".
When you're suprised of the way something is going, because you expected it otherwise, you use "toch" too.

for instance:

Heb je de tafel dan toch verkocht?
Did you sell the table after all?


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Everyone

In Afrikaans we use the same word but we write it as "tog", and can be translated as "yet" or "still" or "even so" or "in that case" or "on top of that" in some contexts and in other contexts  as "off course" or "obviously".

Ek is tog baie bly dat jy gekom het (I'm still very happy that you came)

Ek is tog nie gek nie? (I'm off course not crazy)

Tog is hy my maat (Still, he is my friend)

Hy moes tog geweet het (He should obviously have known)


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## steve47

_ recently had to make this teaching aid when a student asked "How do you use 'toch'in English? I found nine different usages...._
TOCH – english equivalents
toch = still, all the same, after all, in fact, just, yet, actually = bijwoord 
1) ondanks dat = yet
betekenisverwante termen
synoniem: echter 
context; _hoe graag ik ook zou gaan, ik blijf toch thuis 
en toch is het waar_ = and yet it’s true
om na herhaalde tegenwerpingen aan te geven dat men bij zijn standpunt blijft 
_ik doe het lekker toch _
_I’m going to do it all the same
_
2 ) eigenlijk (als verbetering van een zojuist gedane uitspraak) 
context; _toch wel! _
_But it is.
_
3 ) om nadruk te leggen op een conclusie 
betekenisverwante termen
synoniem(en): even 
context; _toch maar goed dat ... _
_Just as well that 
_
4 ) ter versterking van een ongeduldige of verbaasde vraag, bevel 
context; _sta toch stil_
_Just keep still_ 

5 ) ter uitdrukking van schrik, verbazing, ongeduld 
context; jongen _toch, hoe kan je dat nou doen? 
__zij had me toch een wagen_
_Oh you! How could you do that? 
_
6 ) nu eenmaal (ter vaststelling van nu eenmaal bestaande feiten) 
context; _het wordt toch niks_
_It’ll never work 
_
7 ) in vragen, na mededelingen om aan te geven dat men bevestiging 
of instemming verwacht 
context; _ja toch?_ 
vraag om bevestiging 
_Isn’t it?_

8 ) immers 
betekenisverwante termen
synoniem: immers 
context
_ik vertrouw hem, hij heeft me toch geholpen_
_I trust him, he helped me, after all. 

_9 ) bij nader inzien 
context_; dat pand is toch nog verkocht_
_It turns out that house is sold_

_Hope this helps!_
_Steve_


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## papeheimers

So many different meanings for "toch" and yet as a native when you use them you never even think about it's importance to convey meaning that much, at least I didn't.  But I can see how at first it can cause a difficulty when trying to learn Dutch. Although eventually when you get the overall picture of when to use it, I'm sure you'll find yourself using it a lot. ;-)


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