# Usage of Semitic pronunciation in Hebrew?



## tangershon

I'm doing a short research paper on the use of emphatics and alveolar-r (i.e. more "historical", Semitic pronunciation) in modern Israeli Hebrew, and was wondering if there were any papers to read. I'd prefer papers in English or French, though I can excruciatingly slowly read Hebrew and German.

Though Semitic articulation is technically tiknit the prestige form (as per the Academy), it also happens to be associated with the more disadvantaged Mizrahim, as well as ignored by most Ashkenazim. So when do european Israelis use semitic pronunciation? In what situations and under what contexts? Are there any videos?

I'm specifically looking for pharyngeal articulation for clarification and emphasis in ambiguous words or phrases, and the limitations of that (i.e. if tet and tav ever contrasted by european Israelis).

Hebrew, Arab, Mizrahi, pharyngeal, pharyngealization


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## k8an

Just so you know, the whole "disadvantaged Mizrahim/privileged Ashkenazim" myth barely exists anymore, if at all. It is a very dated concept. There are disadvantaged groups in every society but for the most part Ashkenazim and Mizrahim are just "Israeli" today. The way people of the younger generation speak Hebrew is identical, too. 

I also must correct those assumptions about Hebrew pronunciation. Modern Israeli Hebrew pronunciation was based on the traditional "Sfaradi" pronunciation style. It happens that many Europeans from Germany were unable to pronounce the "r" this way, so German/French "r" became incorporated into Modern Israeli Hebrew as the standard pronunciation. 

As far as Ashkenazim not using the "r" of Mizrahim, this is again not exactly true. Whilst it holds true today that many Jews speaking French/German use their version of "r" and English speakers use their version of "r" for Hebrew, most Ashkenazim actually come from Poland/Russia/Ukraine/Bulgaria and other Eastern European countries that pronounce "r" in basically the same way that Mizrahim do (even in Yiddish a lot of the time). I am very familiar with large communities of Ashkenazim (elderly) and none of them pronounce "r" when speaking Hebrew in the German/French/Modern Hebrew way unless they were raised with that pronunciation. It is actually difficult/impossible for them to do so. Most use the "r" of Polish/Russian/etc...and "Mizrahi" pronunciation. I understand how this stereotype came to be, but it is just not accurate to generalise in this way. 

As for your questions about pharyngeal articulation/tet and tav/r - these are not even recognised as having different pronunciations by most Israelis. It is common for younger Israelis (Mizrahim or Ashkenazim) to make fun (in a loving way) of older people who pronounce "het" and "ayin" in the pharyngeal way. To be honest, I think many people (not all) assume this has nothing to do with "Semitic" pronunciation of Hebrew but rather having an "Arabic accent" applied onto the Hebrew language (this perception holds amongst many "Mizrahim" too). 

I would love to share some papers with you, but sadly I don't have any. I could share hundreds of anecdotes with you, but that would not be too useful for an academic research paper


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## tFighterPilot

The majority of Israelis are not aware that there was ever any difference between tet and tav. The alveolar /r/ is common in older songs and was obligatory in radio broadcasts in the past. Pronouncing het and ayin correctly can also be associated with a forced atampt to speak correct Hebrew. An example of an Ashkenazi radio broadcaster who insists of using them (as well as alveolar /r/) is Dan Kaner.


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## refiZ

tFighterPilot said:


> The majority of Israelis are not aware that there was ever any difference between tet and tav.



I absolutely disagree. It was only a generation or two ago that a large chunk of Israel's forebears would say "Gut Shabbos" (גוּט שַׁבָּת).  And who hasn't sat next to the old guy in synagogue who sings, "beys Israel" !!! I will admit, I do not like that pronunciation at all. I prefer a very light 'th' rather than the sharp and more explosive 't' as in Spanish.

I also back what the others said about the 'r'. However, most people aren't even really consistent about that, moving between the 'r' and 'rr' in Spanish (flap versus trill) without really following the rules of the stresses. The thing about the 'r' type sound (rhotic) is that these three pronunciations are made in almost completely different sounds in the mouth (tongue, uvula, and cheeks) so there is not really a smooth transition between them. For those who sing classically or do speech therapy, it is not that hard to fix. Otherwise, it requires some effort, especially getting used to the transition between the different 'r' and adjoining syllables. Sometimes people even sound like they are saying 'w', as in this song (<<link removed by moderator>>) in the chorus.

I love ayin. I practice prayers with both pronunciations with the goal of being able to go between the two. Partially because it helps me remember how things are spelled! Caner does it great.

But if you really want an adventure... look into 'ח'. That is a distinction that is preserved in Arabic and in modern Hebrew can be merged. I, for one, love the more breathy variant, but that one can be harder.

Take a look:
(http://www.forvo.com/word/אחלה/#he) vs. (http://www.forvo.com/word/احلى/#ar)

The next one is a different case because it is a 'heh' (though I have seen it spelled with 'het').

(http://www.forvo.com/word/أهلا_وسهلا!/#ar) vs. (http://www.forvo.com/search/אהלן/)


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## origumi

refiZ said:


> I absolutely disagree...


Based on what? Such disagreements and claims require data, maybe by some kind of survey or extensive practical experience. The situation two generations ago is irrelevant.


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## bazq

origumi said:


> Based on what? Such disagreements and claims require data, maybe by some kind of survey or extensive practical experience. The situation two generations ago is irrelevant.



I agree. Most, if not all Israelis know the "older" sounds of "ר", "ח" and "ע" but that's about it. Most DON'T know the difference between "ט" and "ת", let alone the sounds of the rafe ד/ת/ג, and "צ" and "ק".

As to the question presented, ayin is more "accepted" than het. The ayin is usually used (if used) when trying to emphasize something, or to cancel ambiguity.
מגעיל = disgusting 
ערבי = Arab
(no connection between the two)
There are more, and sometimes it just happens randomly - there are no rules or common words. It tends to pop out when speaking angrily.


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## tFighterPilot

I agree about מגעיל, but they ע in ערבי is unlikely to be pronounced. Main reason being that the stress isn't on that syllable. Even ה is usually not pronounced when unstressed.


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## k8an

Extremely unfortunate collection of words


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## k8an

tFighterPilot said:


> I agree about מגעיל, but they ע in ערבי is unlikely to be pronounced. Main reason being that the stress isn't on that syllable. Even ה is usually not pronounced when unstressed.



Agreed. 

I think מגעיל might actually be the best example. It's as if we highlight the ע only when we want to really emphasise the disgustingness of the thing we are describing.


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## tangershon

Thanks for all the information everyone, especially about the clarification for Mizrahi pronunciation.

If possible, are there any publications or papers that anyone can recommend over Hebrew sociolinguistics?


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## refiZ

bazq said:


> Most DON'T know the difference between "ט" and "ת", ...



I agree. I think I should emphasize that most people would know/assume that at one point in time, these were pronounced differently. However, I don't think many know nor care about the specifics of how they were pronounced.


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## arielipi

I think most people know the (theoretic) differences, but find it hard to produce them, ק should be like the arabic q etc etc


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## Yuzer

refiZ said:


> I absolutely disagree. It was only a generation or two ago that a large chunk of Israel's forebears would say "Gut Shabbos" (גוּט שַׁבָּת).  And who hasn't sat next to the old guy in synagogue who sings, "beys Israel" !!! I will admit, I do not like that pronunciation at all. I prefer a very light 'th' rather than the sharp and more explosive 't' as in Spanish.


There is some myth that Ashkenazi Jews "ruined" Hebrew pronunciation.

Israeli Hebrew was revived in times when the Sephardim were the "ruling" ethnic group, and their accent was adopted. It has obviously changed with time, but Native Judeo Spanish have an accent which only has a different r, and some different intonation.

Just like Sephardic Jews retained phonemes that other Spanish speakers didn't, some Jews retained phonemes that we didn't. Judeospanish had 3 different phonemes for mujer, bajo and judio.


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## arielipi

Sephardic jews are not spanish! they are עדות המזרח in hebrew. ספרדים as we (ashkenazi jews) say


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## Yuzer

Actually,  Mizrahim don't tend to call themselves Sephardim as much, and Sephardim, which don't identify as Mizrahim, call their language Espanyol and in Hebrew Spanyolit.

Fact is that "true" Sephardic Jews do call themselves Spanish for a reason.


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## arielipi

I repeat, sephardic jews are not spanish. spanish jews are, sephardic is the word in english used for mizrahim.


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## Yuzer

A word used by ignorant people. Apparently if you google Sephardic or search Wikipedia there are people who do know the difference.

I'm sure Bulgarian Jews would appreciate you telling them they're edot amizrah because they identify as Sephardim.


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## arielipi

Yuzer said:


> A word used by ignorant people. Apparently if you google Sephardic or search Wikipedia there are people who do know the difference.
> 
> I'm sure Bulgarian Jews would appreciate you telling them they're edot amizrah because they identify as Sephardim.


In english they are either called balkan or ashkenazi, what happened to the street test of what most people say vs. what academy rules? be consistent, either you choose the street or the formal usages, but dont mix at what you want.


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## Yuzer

arielipi said:


> In english they are either called balkan or ashkenazi, what happened to the street test of what most people say vs. what academy rules? be consistent, either you choose the street or the formal usages, but dont mix at what you want.


You call Bulgarian Jews Ashkenazim? Have you ever met one?

And can you tell me if Turkish Jews are Ashkenazi as well, since they're the exact same ethnic group with families from both sides of the border? And Greek Jews?

You can just as well say that Ukrainians are Russians. It's not about choice of words, it's about ignorance, dividing united ethnic groups and putting them later in a different one. Street test is that JS speaking Jews from the Balkan and their descendants identify as Sephardim, meaning coming from Spain.


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## arielipi

Yes i have met, im not saying what i as a jew say, im saying what english says - its a difference you should notice; its pretty easy, ashkenazi are of germany, poland ans basically the northern half of europe with russia and ukraine; hever ha'amim is the rest of ussr; spharadim are of descendants of spanish people; mizrahim are north africa and middle east; temanim are yemen, beita israel is ethiopians iinw or indians; and there's the falashmura.


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