# Persian cognate of Avestan arashi



## mojobadshah

Is there a Persian cognate for arashi "poet priest" Sanskrit rishi?


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## Wolverine9

I haven't found any Persian cognate for it.


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## mojobadshah

What about Per. rish "beard"?


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## Wolverine9

Persian _rīš _'beard' is unrelated to Ave_s_tan _ərəši-._


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## fdb

There is no Avestan word "arashi". Av. _ər__əš_ ‘rightly’ is cognate with NP _r__āst_ etc. Av. _ər__əši-_ ‘envy’ is cognate with NP _ra__šk_. There is no connection between the two.


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## mojobadshah

Is ereshi "envy" related to ereshi "poet priest or bard".  Z was an ereshi "bard".


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## Wolverine9

^_ ər__əši- _in the sense of ''priest-poet'' is mentioned in Yasna 31.5 and is of unknown etymology.  Some propose it was a loanword into Proto Indo-Iranian.


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## fdb

Yasna 31,5 (Ahunauuaitī Gāϑā). Whether _ər__əši-_ means ‘seer’ (Humbach) or ‘envy’ (Bartholomae) is debated, like everything in the Gathas.


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## mojobadshah

Could envy be rage?  ML West relates ereshi to Get. raisen "rage"


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## mojobadshah

If it helps to find the Persian cognate M.L. West says ereshi is akin to German raisan/ rasen "to rage."  OED says the following: race (n.1) 

"act of running," c.1300, from Old Norse ras "running, rush (of water)," cognate with Old English ræs  "a running, a rush, a leap, jump; a storming, an attack;" or else a  survival of the Old English word with spelling influenced by the Old  Norse one. The Norse and Old English words are from Proto-Germanic *res- (cf. Middle Dutch rasen "to rave, rage," German rasen, Old English raesettan "to rage" (of fire)), from a variant form of PIE *ers- "be in motion" (see err).  Originally a northern word, it became general in English c.1550.  Meaning "act of running" is from early 14c. Meaning "contest of speed"  first recorded 1510s.

If I'm not mistaken the reason ereshi is related to Ger. rasen "to rave or rage" is because these poet-priests would consume psychadelics that would throw them into mantic, sometimes rough, trances.

The PIE according to Joseph T. Shipley is *ergh and is related to a few interesting English cognates raise, run.  Could the ereshi have had anything to do with the doctrine of the Resurrection?  In the NT Jesus calls himself "the Rising Again."


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## fdb

My point is simply that _ər__əši-_ occurs exactly once in the Avesta, in a very obscure passage. Nobody really knows what it means. In this circumstance it is not possible to propose a likely etymology.


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## Dib

Can the second part of Xerxes's name be related with Skt. ṛṣi (as the Avestan term is obscure)?
Xšaya-ṛšā / Xšayāršā


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## fdb

Rüdiger Schmitt (following Hoffmann et al.) writes: 

“Old Persian _Xšaya-__ṛ__šā_ is a compound with the verbal stem _xšaya_- “ruling” as the first element and the _n_-stem noun *_ṛ__šan_- “hero, man” as the second element; the original _n_-stem paradigm, however, is preserved only in the nominative form, whereas the other cases are remodeled analogically in one way or another (see Kent, p. 65a); with the primary meaning “ruling over heroes” it is close to Ved. _k__ṣ__ayád-vīra_- “id.” with a similar formation.”

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/xerxes-1-name


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## Dib

Thanks. But, how secure is this *_ṛ__šan_- “hero, man”? Do we have other cognates or attestations?


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## fdb

_ar__š__an-_ ‘man, hero, male animal’ is very common in the Avesta (see Bartholomae, _AiWb_ 203), the regular Young Avestan reflex of *ṛšan- (Hoffmann, _Aves. Laut- u. Flexionslehre_ 91); cf Gk ἄρσην, Ved. _ṛṣ__abh__á_- ‘bull’.


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## Dib

Cool. Thanks!


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## Wolverine9

Monier Williams doesn't define _ṛṣ__abh__á _as a 'steer' (castrated bull), but somewhat contrarily as 'a bull (as impregnating the flock)'. The latter meaning seems to work better when considering the Avestan evidence; a virile bull is more "heroic" than a castrated one.


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## fdb

You are right. The word we need is English "bull" (German "Stier"). I have corrected it in no. 15.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> My point is simply that _ər__əši-_ occurs exactly once in the Avesta, in a very obscure passage. Nobody really knows what it means. In this circumstance it is not possible to propose a likely etymology.



M.L. West seems pretty confidant that ereshi is akin to Ger. raissan which is PIE ergh, but shiply groups ergh with *rei and *res and river is lumped with rave and rage.  If I'm not mistaken Av. Urvan "soul" and NPer. Ravan shenasi "psychology" and Rohani "spiritual leader" are indirectly relate to Av. Ereshi.


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## fdb

rūḥānī is Arabic.


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## Wolverine9

ML West is not a comparative linguist.  He is a scholar of Greek, particularly Ancient Greek classics.


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## mojobadshah

Wolverine9 said:


> ML West is not a comparative linguist.  He is a scholar of Greek, particularly Ancient Greek classics.



Check that.  He translated the Gathas.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> rūḥānī is Arabic.


Wikipedia says its from Persian that's why I figured it was related to Persian ravan "psyche".  On Pres. Rohanis wikipedia.


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## mojobadshah

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouhani_(surname)


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## fdb

My colleague M L West is a very distinguished classicist. Many years ago he wrote a book about Indian parallels to the Greek philosophers. This was severely criticised at the time. It was pointed out in particular that he would never have tolerated anyone writing about Greek authors if that person did not know Greek, and asking how West could venture to write about Indian texts without knowing any Sanskrit. West took the criticism to heart and actually learned Sanskrit, and Avestan too. Recently he has published his translation of the Gathas. This too has been rather fiercely criticised by specialists in Iranian studies. West’s strong point is that he actually tries to make sense of the texts rather than just translating words at random (as some others have done). But sometimes he bends the meaning of the words just a bit too much. The Gathas do remain an extremely obscure work.


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## mojobadshah

fdb said:


> My colleague M L West is a very distinguished classicist. Many years ago he wrote a book about Indian parallels to the Greek philosophers. This was severely criticised at the time. It was pointed out in particular that he would never have tolerated anyone writing about Greek authors if that person did not know Greek, and asking how West could venture to write about Indian texts without knowing any Sanskrit. West took the criticism to heart and actually learned Sanskrit, and Avestan too. Recently he has published his translation of the Gathas. This too has been rather fiercely criticised by specialists in Iranian studies. West’s strong point is that he actually tries to make sense of the texts rather than just translating words at random (as some others have done). But sometimes he bends the meaning of the words just a bit too much. The Gathas do remain an extremely obscure work.




He also wrote a good book on PIE and IE Poetry and myth.  

Also in regards to the Avesta being an obscure text I have been familiar with it for over a decade and I have not noticed so many obscurities.  We are still able to recognize the Zoroastrian contribution to the core of the Abrahamic faiths.


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