# Madame / Mademoiselle



## Conversepugkid01

*
Moderator note : Multiple threads have been merged to create this one. *

Ok, so this is more of a cultural question, if a french woman is divorced and she takes her maiden name, is she Madame or Mademoiselle? Does this depend on age?


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## Artcake

Well, it usually is upon the woman herself to decide how she wants to be called... 
Some don't like to be called Mademoiselle, because it generally refer to someone quite young, and it might seem weird to call a 50 year old woman Mademoiselle... 
But some old celebrities do like being called Mademoiselle so you see, it really depends on the person ! ^^


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## LivingTree

In Canada, a woman -- an adult -- is _Mme_ no matter what. (It helps that in Quebec women, by law, retain their birth surnames, so a common title for women became necessary, essentially.)

The honorific _Mlle_ is simply not used in Canada now. The downside of this is that English Canadian women who use the honorific "Ms.", and who have battled long and hard for years, like other women in the world, to throw off the patriarchal practice of identifying women publicly by marital status and by the man we belonged to, are now constantly addressed as "Mrs." by French speakers, who simply mistranslate _Mme_ into English. Extreme cultural insensitivity, and it gets up my nose daily.

I would like to hear that this practice is becoming current in France and other francophone societies - ? We'd love to welcome the world to the 20th century, when women stopped being chattel, at least in some places.


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## chrisp124

Je n'ai jamais entendu appeler une femme divorcée "Mademoiselle" en France.


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## OLN

chrisp124 said:


> Je n'ai jamais entendu appeler une femme divorcée "Mademoiselle" en France.


Les actrices sont un exemple. 
Cette exception faite, une femme d'âge à être mariée doit être appelée Madame, et il est dépassé (et déplacé) de nos jours de mentionner épouse, veuve, ou divorcée X.


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## LivingTree

Thank you OLN, that's what I was hoping to hear!


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## Ellea1

When you are over 30, you are called 'Madame' whether you like it or not. :/


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## greendreams

Hi I'm 28 and a french friend of mine wrote to me and called me Madame it pissed me off I'm not that old or it is a mark of being older woman
?


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## massromantic

greendreams, I lived in Paris last year at age 23 and was called both "Madame" and "Mademoiselle." If it is your friend writing, do you have any reason to assume they are trying to be rude? Even if they are teasing, it is gentle teasing. They might just be trying to be polite/formal. Personally I don't think either name is rude for a woman in her 20s.


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## allezallez

LivingTree said:


> The honorific _Mlle_ is simply not used in Canada now. The downside of this is that English Canadian women who use the honorific "Ms.", and who have battled long and hard for years, like other women in the world, to throw off the patriarchal practice of identifying women publicly by marital status and by the man we belonged to, are now constantly addressed as "Mrs." by French speakers, who simply mistranslate _Mme_ into English. Extreme cultural insensitivity, and it gets up my nose daily.



Your points are totally important and correct and good to know.  However, for cultural insensitivity to be "extreme" shouldn't there be more intent and less "simple mistranslation?"  Pardon my naivete in advance SVP!


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## greendreams

Madame sounds old it's a connotation that I have gathered


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## Ellea1

greendreams said:


> Madame sounds old it's a connotation that I have gathered


 
'Madame' is only a word that may sound 'old' or 'respectful'. I think it's just about which way you want to put it, and how you want to feel about being called 'Madame'.


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## Quaeitur

greendreams said:


> Madame sounds old it's a connotation that I have gathered


And Mademoiselle sounds condescending and paternalistic to me  

In France nowadays, both words Madame and Mademoiselle are loosing their original sense, the one that indicated the marital status of a woman. Women choose themselves how they prefer to be called. If one doesn't know though, it is normal and respectful to use madame. In a business setting, one may call the assistant mademoiselle, but rarely so the managers.


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## Lacuzon

Hi,

As far as I am concerned, Madame is used for women with children, whatever their age, and for married women. In addition also over a not well defined age.

So a divorced woman is still called Madame unless she has no child and she is still "young".

Nevertheless, some "old" women not married prefered to be called Mademoiselle.


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## LivingTree

allezallez said:


> Your points are totally important and correct  and good to know.  However, for cultural insensitivity to be "extreme"  shouldn't there be more intent and less "simple mistranslation?"  Pardon  my naivete in advance SVP!


In the situations I'm referring to, it's federal government employees  doing it. Mail and email are addressed to women as "Mrs.", women  speaking at official events are referred to in transcripts or orally as  "Mrs.", etc. When it's your guv'mint doing it and you live in a country  where women have fought for and won equality rights for a long time, and  doing it routinely and pervasively and constantly, it feels extreme. 

I'll leave my sig line on this one -- the Privy Council decision in  question, written by Viscount Sankey (my distant cousin), was the one  that held in 1929 that women were indeed "persons" under the  Constitution for the purposes of appointment to the Senate, after the  women known as the "Famous Five" lost in the Supreme Court of Canada and  took their case to London, as was then possible.

The honorific "Mrs." in English is used exclusively for married women  who have adopted their husband's surname (Mrs. John Smith, not Mrs. Jane  Smith) and for divorcees who keep that surname (Mrs. Jane Smith)  (widows may choose either form). It identifies a woman as an appendage.  Eighty years on from the Persons Case, it feels extreme.


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## eileen marie

We are here far from the original question (requiring an answer in French).
Mademoiselle in France is over, except for actresses.
Madame is used for any woman, divorced or not.
But within new generations, you will mostly hear the surname of the person even if she is 40 or more.


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## SteveRusso

My answer would be two-folded, and it applies to France only:
- From an administrative point of view, a woman can choose to be called Mademoiselle or Madame, regardless of her marital status. These honorific titles (Monsieur, Madame or Mademoiselle) are not part of the vital record anyway.
Some transcript of debate in French Senate on this topic: http://www.senat.fr/basile/visio.do?id=qSEQ060924509

- In everyday life, I would say that a woman who seems too young to be married will be called "Mademoiselle", and a woman old enough to be married "madame". Of course it is a very vague rule.


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## LivingTree

eileen marie said:


> We are here far from the original question (requiring an answer in French).
> Mademoiselle in France is over, except for actresses.
> Madame is used for any woman, divorced or not.
> But within new generations, you will mostly hear the surname of the person even if she is 40 or more.



Apologies if the intercultural dialogue offended you. I originally explained how the terms in question are used (and not used) in French in Canada - which is in fact precisely as you state in your post. For an English speaker asking the question, I think the current use of equivalent terms in English is relevant to understanding answers.

I think the basic answer is: "Mme" is properly used for a female person in French in any situation where "M." would be used for a male person. 

There is evidently no counterpart for "Mlle" as an honorific for a young man, and there is no need for a specific honorific for a young woman. The terms were used, for women, solely to distinguish married women from unmarried women, and that practice is outmoded and widely rejected.

Young men would undoubtedly feel some pride at being addressed as "monsieur". I have no idea why a young woman would feel insulted at being addressed respectfully as "madame", any more than I know why young women in English feel that way about being addressed as "ma'am" or "madam", as they apparently do. (Personally, I'm offended by male store clerks half my age calling me  "Miss", which is, as said above re "Mlle", condescending and  paternalistic.  )


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## sw0011

Bonjour tout le monde!  Cet automne je serai prof de français au lycée en Alabama.  J'ai 25 ans et je suis fiancée.  Je vais se marier avec mon fiancé l'été prochain.  Alors, pour mes élèves, c'est plus correct pour eux de m'addresser comme "Mademoiselle" cette année ou "Madame" en classe??  Merci!


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## LiWitt

Isn't it mademoiselle until marriage? I think it is.

Although I think it depends on age, even if one is married, they are still refered to as mademoiselle if they look young, and madame is used even when a woman isn't married but looks over the age of 30.


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## sw0011

Yes, but I was curious if Madame was in any way a default title for a teacher, regardless of her age and also which was most appropriate.


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## DearPrudence

I think that young people tend to see people above 18 as very old people! 
By default, I would say that they call every woman "*Madame*", no matter if they are married or not.
Maybe if they are older (17-18) and see you are young, they will use "Mademoiselle", whether you are married or not.



> Although I think it depends on age, even if one is married, they are still refered to as mademoiselle if they look young, and madame is used even when a woman isn't married but looks over the age of 30.


 Yes, they won't look at your ring finger to know whether you are married or not and what they should call you!


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## pointvirgule

sw0011 said:


> Je vais se marier avec mon fiancé l'été prochain. [...] c'est plus correct pour eux de m'addresser comme "Mademoiselle" cette année ou "Madame" en classe??


Ms.  French Teacher, please correct the errors highlighted in red.


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## franc 91

Count yourself lucky that you're not teaching in a junior school - there the pupils would call you Maîtresse (which might cause eyebrows to be raised in an American context) but I suggest Madame.


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## sw0011

Merci, franc 91.  Et point virgule, oui, quelle faute!  Double "d"?!  C'est "m'adresser" avec un seul "d."  On parle/écrit en français, pas en anglais, n'est-ce pas?   Et aussi, le verbe "s'adresser à" est un verbe que j'emploie rarement dans ce contexte.  Je crois que le verbe "m'appeller 'Madame'" soit plus convenable dans cette phrase, c'est ça?


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## orlando09

There has also been a movement by feminists to say that all women should be referred to as Madame, and that it is demeaning to use Mademoiselle as it suggests the person is "available" and there is no equivalent for men. The government recently agreed to remove the "Mademoiselle" box on all official forms. So... I would say "Madame" would be fine and there is no need to worry about telling them to call you one thing before you marry and then the other afterwards, especially as you are getting married soon anyway.


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## pointvirgule

sw0011 said:


> Je crois que le verbe "m'appeler 'Madame'" soit plus convenable dans cette phrase, c'est ça?


 Oui, c'est ça.  
_Appelez-moi madame _(ou _mademoiselle_, si vous y tenez) _quand vous vous adressez à moi / quand vous m'adressez la parole._


orlando09 said:


> There  has also been a movement by feminists to say that all women should be  referred to as Madame, and that it is demeaning to use Mademoiselle as  it suggests the person is "available" and there is no equivalent for  men. The government recently agreed to remove the "Mademoiselle" box on  all official forms.


Only some 40 years after Québec... Here, we call everybody madame  (except guys of course), and young single women don't mind a bit.


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## sw0011

Merci, orlando09 et pointvirgule! Je vais demander aux élèves de m'appeler, "Madame."  Mais oh la la mes fautes d'orthographe aujourd'hui, il faut que je copie les verbes cent fois!


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## cigogne

Hi,

If I don't know the woman to whom I am talking is married or not, should I address her Madame or Mademoiselle?

Thanks!


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## Micia93

it depends how old she is : if she's 18 up to 25, go for "Mademoiselle", otherwise, go for "Madame"


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## carog

I'd personally would say Madame if the lady looks old enough to be married. If on the phone, Madame is safer I think.


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## Hildy1

LivingTree, the forms of address Mrs, Ms, Miss are all abbreviations of Mistress, a title of respect. It was formerly applied to all female adults, married or not. So using Mrs for all women is just a way of going back to this custom in order to simplify things. I don't see anything objectionable about it. It's better than being asked whether you want to be called Mrs, Ms or Miss.


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## mirifica

Bonsoir à tous,

Dans l'administration où je travaille, nous avons reçu pour consigne de ne plus utiliser le "mademoiselle", ce qui ne plait pas à toutes les usagères du service. Certaines exigent, à 60 ans bien sonnés, que tous les documents soient refaits au nom de Mlle Trucmuch. Sidérant.


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## frspeng

Je vais enseigner le français à un collège américain cet automne. Je suis jeune et célibataire. Comment est-ce que les collégiens français s'addressent à leurs profs? Pour une femme, est-ce qu'ils emploient toujours «madame» pour montrer du respect?


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## Oddmania

frspeng said:


> Je vais enseigner le français à un collège américain cet automne. Je suis jeune et célibataire. Comment est-ce que les collégiens français s'addressent à leurs profs? Pour une femme, est-ce qu'ils emploient toujours «madame» pour montrer du respect?



Salut,

Oui, ce sera _madame_. En France, tous les élèves (surtout lorsqu'ils sont jeunes) appellent leur professeure _madame _"par défaut". Mais si vous souhaitez être appelée _mademoiselle_, vous pouvez le leur demander.

Je n'ai jamais vu d'élèves appeler leurs profs _mademoiselle _ou _professeur_, sauf dans des séries/films/livres anglo-saxons traduits en français (puisque dans les pays anglophones, il y a une réelle différence entre _Mrs. _et _Miss_).


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