# vörös bor / vörösbor



## Sowka

Szia 

I'm an absolute beginner in Hungarian (this is my sixth day of learning...). 

My Assimil textbook translates "vörös bor" as "red wine" (and the two guests in the restaurant in my textbook dialog order a liter of the substance!). 
My Langenscheidt dictionary German-Hungarian, however, gives "vörösbor" for "red wine".

Initially I thought that these were simply two ways of spelling the same thing, but then I found a difference in the Sztaki dictionary:

vörös bor - port
vörösbor - red wine

How do you use these words? Would you also make this distinction?

Köszönöm szépen. Minden jót.


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## Olivier0

There is no distinction and both can be found, maybe wrongly if it is the general idea of _vörösbor_ "red wine".
This can better be explained with _fehérbor_ "white wine": such wine is not really white and it can be a bit yellow for instance, so "white wine" is a general name and not the product (wine) + a colour which would be _fehér bor_.
In fact this is disputed, I think it is because of some new orthographical rules and Hungarian natives should be able to tell you more about this. At your level of course you do not need more than just know and accept both forms, but you may be curious.
-- Olivier


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## Sowka

Köszönöm, Olivier


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## francisgranada

I'd like to add that I (a native speaker) also have problems with this, i.e. when to write similar expressions separately and when together, even if the "rule" seems to be quite clear. And not only in Hungarian ... For example _háziasszony _(_housewife_) is written together both in English and Hungarian, but _háztető_ (_house roof_) in Eglish is written separately ...  Or _almeno _(_at least_) in Italian is written together, but the same _al menos _in Spanish has to be written separately ...


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## Sowka

Thank you, francisgranada 

We have similar problems in German (write together or not...). But I was mainly wondering if you'd associate a different liquid with the separate words, as does the dictionary mentioned above:

vörös bor = *port *wine (i.e., a thicker wine with more rpm  (mine has 19% vol.)
This is what Wikipedia says about port:


> Port wine is typically richer, sweeter, heavier, and possesses a higher  alcohol content than unfortified wines. This is caused by the addition  of distilled grape spirits (aguardente similar to brandy)  to fortify the wine and halt fermentation before all the sugar is  converted to alcohol and results in a wine that is usually 18 to 20%  alcohol.



vörösbor = red wine (i.e. a "normal" red wine with around 11% vol.).


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## gorilla

Hungarian orthography is quite irregular as to what is written in one word and what in two words. Often it depends on tradition.
A general rule of thumb is that expressions tend to be written in one word when there is some special extra meaning that is not conveyed by the two parts separately. This is very vague, and a lot of times it's simply tradition, as I said.
For example, világos sör (lager beer) is in two words even though not all "light colored" beers are lager beers.


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## francisgranada

Sowka said:


> ...  But I was mainly wondering if you'd associate a different liquid with the separate words, as does the dictionary mentioned above: vörös bor = *port *wine (i.e., a thicker wine with more rpm  (mine has 19% vol.) ...


 I'd say that surely not. It is a translation to English, maybe for the English "port" is an equivalent for "red wine" (vino tinto), I don't know ...

In Hungarian (as far as I know or "feel") _vörösbor _is a kind of wine that is normally _red _(due to the vine/grape used etc...), e.g. "Egri bikavér" or "Portói bor" or whichever, independently on the origin and the rpm. That is, a _vörösbor_ remains _vörösbor_, even if it is artificially coloured blue (for some reason ...). In such case we should have, _ad absurdum,_ a "_kék vörösbor"_ (blue _red wine_ or blue _port_?), but not a _vörös bor _(i.e. not a wine of _red colour_). At least, I think this is the logic of the _separate _versus _non separate _writing in this case (agreeing with Oliviero, post #2)...

 For curiosity, in Hungarian there are two words for _red_: _vörös _and_ piros, _with slightly different usage.


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## Sowka

Many thanks for your detailed explanation, Francis!  

So it seems that the online dictionary states a difference that is not made in normal language usage. I'll go with "vörösbor" in my vocabulary database (and, in the same way, "fehérbor"; interestingly, my textbook writes this in two words, too). I see the reasoning.

Thank you very much, everyone!


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## francisgranada

Sowka said:


> Many thanks for your detailed explanation, Francis!


Szívesen


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## Akitlosz

vörös bor = A wine, which is red. (The red is an attribute of the wine.)
vörösbor = red wine (The red is the part of the name of the single group of the wines.)

Otherwise all the same.


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## gorilla

"Vörös bor" is never used in the sense "a wine which just happens to be red color, but is not red wine". It is almost without exception a spelling error and it is supposed to mean "red wine".


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## Akitlosz

Vörösbor is a noun.

Vörös bor are an adjective and a noun.


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## gorilla

Vörösbor is orthographically considered to be a compound word and not a phrase of two words. But a "compound word" has no clear-cut definition, it is just an orthographical convention.
There are similar phrases that are written in two words even though the connection between them is very strong:
Világos sör, mezei nyúl, vajas kenyér,  fehér kenyér...

Spelling has to be learned, it is not about logic (sadly the orthographical rules defined by the academy are quite inconsistent and have lots of exceptions).


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## Encolpius

Now only vörösbor is acceptable. 
In the 19th century people wrote "vörös bor". So you can find that spelling in the older literature.


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## Sowka

Thank you, Encolpius


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## AndrasBP

As a native speaker of Hungarian, I'd like to point out that "vörös bor = port" is *definitely wrong*.
Port is called "portói" (portó + adjectival suffix "-i") or "oportó" (where "o" is the Portuguese def.article)


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## Sowka

AndrasBP said:


> As a native speaker of Hungarian, I'd like to point out that "vörös bor = port" is *definitely wrong*.
> Port is called "portói" (portó + adjectival suffix "-i") or "oportó" (where "o" is the Portuguese def.article)



Thank you very much, AndrasBP  This was the question that still bothered me.


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