# mon tour de le mater



## Novanas

G'day, Folks!  I'm not at all sure of the meaning of the above word in the context I have, and I'm hoping that someone can help clarify it for me.

This is from Didier Daeninckx's novel, _La route du Rom_, and I hope I can explain the context well enough.

A young guy named Antonio was in prison.  One day all the prisoners were doing stretching exercises when suddenly the pants of the man standing in front of him ripped up the back, leaving his bum exposed.  Antonio couldn't help but laugh, and then all the other men started laughing.  The man with the torn pants wasn't happy being laughed at, and so Antonio became afraid that he would attack him when he had the chance.  Then he says this about the man who was laughed at:

Deux jours plus tard, il s'est arrangé pour surveiller notre équipe, aux blockhaus.  Le hasard a voulu qu'une poutrelle nous échappe des mains à l'instant précis où il passait devant nous.  Elle a filé sur la glaise, droit au but, à la vitesse d'une torpille.  Il gueulait comme un âne, coincé dessous.  C'était à mon tour de le *mater*, je m'en suis pas privé.

Then he goes on to explain that when they pulled the girder off the man, his leg came off with it.  The man was taken away to a hospital, and they never saw him again.

But I really don't know what "mater" means here.  I think the best possibility I've found is this definition: "to take in hand".  That is, Antonio is saying that he now has the advantage over the other man.  One problem I have here is the verb tenses: "était", "suis privé".  Perhaps by saying that he had a chance to get the advantage over the other man, he's saying that it wasn't really an accident that they dropped the girder.  They did it on purpose.

But I'm not at all sure of this.  So if anyone can help clarify this for me, many thanks.


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## Pirwet

"mater" is to look at somebody up and down instistently 
That is usually said in a sexual connotation


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## silaya

Hi,

Actually, "mater" can have two meanings:
One is, as Pirwet said, to look at someone with intensity,  with, indeed, a sexual connotation (boy checking at a girl for instance).

But it can also mean "put down", "submit", for a rebellious person or for an offender for instance.

In your context, both could be possible, but I think that the first option is the one.
It had nothing to do with the event of the pants. It's just that it seems that the guy was a guard (in slang we actually say "maton"), in charge of putting down the prisoners when needed. And then Antonio had the chance to submit the guard. Which is why he says "It was my turn to put him down, and I blithely did/ I did it without a second thought.


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## sophie3210

Mater is to eye up, to ogle


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## Novanas

Thanks to all of you for your replies.  Perhaps I should explain that this man was not a guard.  He was "un droit-commun".  There were 25 prisoners to each dormitory, and one of those would be the leader.

If "mater" here means "to look at closely", I'm not really sure why Antonio would do that.  Obviously, there wouldn't be any sexual connotation.  I suppose it might be connected to what Antonio said about this man two days earlier when his pants ripped:

Il m'a lentement toisé, de la tête aux pieds, en faisant la grimace. . .

Although that was two days earlier, it is only a few sentences earlier in the text.  So perhaps that's the connection.


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## Wordsmyth

Seneca the Duck said:


> I suppose it might be connected to what Antonio said about this man two days earlier when his pants ripped:
> Il m'a lentement toisé, de la tête aux pieds, en faisant la grimace. . .
> 
> So perhaps that's the connection.



I'm convinced it is, Seneca. "Il m'a .. toisé" = "He looked me up and down". 
Then later "C'était à mon tour de le mater" = "It was my turn to stare at him".

_[Edit]:_ OK, so _'toiser'_ usually suggests contempt, and _'mater'_ usually has the sexual connotation, but maybe the author was running out of colloquial terms for 'look, stare' .

Ws


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## Novanas

Thanks, Wordsmyth.  Having looked back over the text, I really can't find any other explanation, so I think I should go with it.


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## lucas-sp

Is it really clear that Antonio has no desire for the other prisoner? That would explain A) how the other prisoner would "toiser" Antonio when he realizes that Antonio is staring desirously at his buttocks (his stare/sneer would be accusing A of being a queer, as if taunting Antonio for revealing his desire) and B) why Antonio would revel in this chance to "mater" the other guy, with the other guy being in so much pain that he can't look back at Antonio and thus shame him. (There's also the obvious sexual-sadistic symbolism of the "accidental" loss of control of the girder/torpedo aimed right at the other guy's crotch.)

Not that I would really want to ogle a guy whose leg had just been broken off but... les français!


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## Novanas

Hello, Lucas!  Having gone back to the text, I'd say there's nothing sexual here. There's nothing that would justify the suggestion that Antonio was "staring desirously at his buttocks".  It's just that all of a sudden his bum was exposed, which Antonio couldn't help but notice since he was standing right in front of him.  Then Antonio started laughing.  No suggestion of any sexual longing.

As for "toiser", this comes right after Antonio has challenged the guy to a fight.  When Antonio started laughing, then of course the other guy immediately got angry, and the two of them started getting aggressive. No surprise in this sort of situation.  So Antonio challenged him to a fight.  That's when we get

Il m'a lentement toisé, de la tête aux pieds, en faisant la grimace: «Je n'ai pas envie de me salir.  Les Gitans, ça vaut encore moins que les juifs.  On ne se bat pas avec les vermines de ton espèce. . .»

Then later on we learn

. . . il me poursuivait de son regard noir, et je sentais bien qu'il préparait une embuscade.

So there has been some looking and sizing up, but none of it of a sexual nature.


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## silaya

Hi!

Honestly, I don't see why he would say that it was his turn to be ogling him when he was already the first one to actually make fun of him.
"Toiser" just means looking up and down , with contempt. The other guy never had the chance to "ogle" Antonio...but maybe I'm wrong, of course.

Are you sure the other guy never punished Antonio or hit him before?


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## Novanas

Antonio had never had any trouble with this guy before.  He tells us that once he was sent to prison, he learned very quickly to keep his mouth shut, not to protest about anything, not to cause any trouble, because it would only make things worse for him.  As for this particular incident, in his account of it he starts out like this:

C'est là que j'ai eu mon seul accrochage avec un droit-co.

So as far as we know from the text, no, he'd never had any trouble with the man before.


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## silaya

Alright then...I don't know.
I guess Antonio is a political prisoner whereas the other one is a prisoner "de droit-commun", supposed to be more violent...I don't see how "ogle" could fit in this situation but perhaps that's the right definition!


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## Punky Zoé

Hi there!

At first I thought of mater meaning 'put down, submit', but my second thought, considering the context, is 'eye-balling, staring at him'.
In the first case there would be no particular reason to add 'à mon tour'.


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## sophie3210

I would add that I often hear the verb "mater" without any sexual connotation. It is used as slang for "regarder (avec attention)".


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## Novanas

Thanks to both of you for these further replies.  If "mater" can be used without any sexual connotations, then I think it would be appropriate.  As regards "ogle", my dictionary indicates that it can be used without any sexual connotations, but I don't think I've ever heard the word used that way.  For me, it always has such connotations.  I think "ogle" would be inappropriate in this passage.  As for "mater", I'll go with whatever you good folks decide.


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## JeanDeSponde

_To eyeball him_?


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## Novanas

"To eyeball him" would probably work.  Having looked over the text (again and again), I think I'd probably go with "It was my turn to size him up."

To be honest, I don't really like this sentence.  When you look at what comes before and after it, I don't really see the purpose of it, and if it were left out, I don't think the story would be losing anything.  I think that's one reason I couldn't figure it out.  It's hard to see what it's doing there.


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## sophie3210

"size him up" seems fine to me. But indeed, the sentence is not superfluous. It says that the man can take his "revenge", by watching, in his turn, his nemesis being "ridiculous" in front of other people (if losing a leg could be compared with having one's bum exposed, of course !).

Here is an example where "mater" can be used without sexual connotations :
"On se mate un dvd ?" (not necessarily a porn  )


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## Novanas

sophie3210 said:


> But indeed, the sentence is not superfluous. It says that the man can take his "revenge". . .



This is a good point, Sophie.  Seeing revenge here can help in interpreting the sentence.  Antonio was getting revenge for the look and the insult the other man gave him.  Of course, it was the other man (we're never told his name) who both had his bum exposed and then lost his leg.


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## Wordsmyth

I'm not sure "size him up" is the best expression for a man who's now smaller by one leg! . But seriously, 'sizing someone up' is most often used in assessing someone's suitability for some activity, or someone's ability to beat you in a fight. Neither of these seems appropriate to a man lying half-crushed under a girder.

"Look him over", "eyeball him", "stare at him" avoid the question of Antonio's motive. (I would also say it's revenge, or at least satisfaction, but we don't seem to be unanimous on that).

Ws


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## Novanas

Wordsmyth said:


> I'm not sure "size him up" is the best expression for a man who's now smaller by one leg! . But seriously, 'sizing someone up' is most often used in assessing someone's suitability for some activity, or someone's ability to beat you in a fight. Neither of these seems appropriate to a man lying half-crushed under a girder.



I myself think it would work.  I agree it might seem odd out of context, but I'm looking at the passage as a whole.  In context, I think it's OK.


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## Wordsmyth

OK Seneca, your call, of course . It was just a passing thought.

Ws


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## Novanas

No, you're right. Out of context, it might seem odd.  But consider: in the first scene, they're about to get into a fight.  Until the other guy sizes him up and insults him.

Then, just after the accident, "it's my turn to size him up."  I.e., what does he look like, lying on the ground howling, crushed beneath a girder?  There's a bit of irony there--and a fair bit of cruelty.  That's why I think it would work.  Translate both "toiser" and "mater" as "size up".  (Assuming that the French allows that, of course.  If it doesn't, we'll cheat a bit.)


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## Wordsmyth

Good point. If you use it for "toiser" (and there he is indeed sizing him up), then using the same expression later does emphasise the link with the first instance. As for the French 'allowing that', I don't see why not: both words are colloquial usage, so I can't see anyone setting the Académie on your heels! 

Ws


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## friasc

> Here is an example where "mater" can be used without sexual connotations :
> "On se mate un dvd ?" (not necessarily a porn  )



Du moins c'est ce que je pensais jusqu'au jour où, lors d'une réunion de travail, j'ai dit nonchalamment à un collègue "dis, t'as pas maté le fichier excel que je t'ai envoyé ?" et alors c'était le fou rire général pendant 2 minutes ! Ensuite on tenait à m'expliquer gentiment que mater, c'est de l'argot, que ça veut dire regarder une personne avec convoitise (ce que d'ailleurs je savais parfaitement), que du coup on ne dit pas "mater un film" ou "mater un site web". N'osant pas contredire tout le monde, je me suis contenté de laisser tomber et de m'excuser pour mes lacunes en argot. Du reste, après réflexion je n'étais plus trop sûr non plus qu'on pouvait en effet dire 'mater un fichier excel'. 

Certes, n'étant pas francophone 'natif', il m'arrive souvent de ne pas saisir la portée de mes mots, surtout avec l'argot. Toujours est-il que la réaction de mes collègues ce jour-là ne me paraissait pas en proportion avec mon erreur, car en France j'entendais tout le temps les gens autour de moi dire "mater la télévision", "mater youtube", etc. Je sais bien que "mater" peut comporter une connotation sexuelle, pourtant j'avais l'impression (peut-être fausse) que de nos jours ce verbe était devenu à peu près un synonyme familier de regarder. Peut-être le sens non-sexuel de "mater" n'est-il pas aussi courant que je le pensais ? 

Pd: Je précise que mes collègues sont presque tous français et à peu près du même âge que moi (27-35 ans).


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## friasc

Une rapide recherche sur google semble confirmer mon intuition :

"Mate le message qu'elle m'envoie"
"Venez chez moi on se mate Avengers"
"Je viens de mater le site de la fnac , jsuis grav surpris"
"Si tu mate le script de l'API javascript de Google Map, tu ne verra pas une seule fois le mot Class, juste des fonctions"


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## Itisi

When it doesn't mean 'ogle' or 'observe, 'mater' means 'subdue/bring to heel', _not_ 'size up', 'toiser'.  Sorry, but *Novanas*' suggestion doesn't work, apart from being far fetched in the situation.


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## friasc

In your opinion, Itisi, does 'mater' invariably connote a kind of lustful gazing or can it also be used as simply a very informal synonym of 'regarder'? If the latter is true, then is this more general use of 'mater' restricted to certain contexts? It seems like you can 'mater' something on a screen (a movie, a video, maybe even a computer program or a website?) but for instance can you 'mater' a book or a newspaper? Surely not.


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## Itisi

friasc said:


> does 'mater' invariably connote a kind of lustful gazing? No. Or can it also be used as simply a very informal synonym of 'regarder'? Yes. If the latter is true, then is this more general use of 'mater' restricted to certain contexts? It does seem like you can 'mater' something on a screen (a movie, a video, maybe even a computer program or a website). Bbut for instance can you 'mater' a book or a newspaper? You can 'mate' page 3! ("*Page 3* is a feature found in the British tabloid newspaper  The Sun, consisting of a large photograph of a topless female glamour  model usually published on the newspaper's third *page.")*.


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## friasc

> You can 'mate' page 3! ("*Page 3* is a feature found in the British tabloid newspaper The Sun, consisting of a large photograph of a topless female glamour model usually published on the newspaper's third *page.")*.



But then we *are* talking about lustful ogling, not just observing! I can't be sure since I'm not real francophone, but something tells me it's possible to say something like:

- as-tu étudié pour l'examen de mi-semestre ?
-bof, j'ai même pas maté le texte ...

-as-tu lu le texte pour aujourd'hui ?
-j'ai juste maté vite fait.

Or maybe also:

-Quand je vais à la Fnac pour acheter un bouquin, je mate la couverture, le nom de l'auteur et la 4ème de couverture et si ça m'intéresse, j'achète.

If I'm not off way base, in these cases 'mater' would be more or less equivalent to 'jeter un oeil à'. However, something tells me this doesn't work in all contexts: 

'mate le deuxième paragraphe à la page 125 du manuscrit' ?

What are the *semantic *limits, then, of this use of the verb 'mater'? Obviously it's a very informal word, so it would be incongruous to use it in a formal setting. But can it really be used anytime you can use 'jeter un oeil à'?


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## Punky Zoé

Hi there!

IMHO, the meaning of "mater" and  the way it will be understood is mainly depending on the context.

Anyway, I wouldn't say it is equivalent to "jeter un coup d'oeil" which conveys the idea of a quick glance, on the contrary "mater" imply attention paid to something (with or without lust).

Quant au fou rire de tes collègues, peut-être est-il dû pour partie au ton sur lequel tu as posé la question et pour partie à l'association mater/internet qui évoque facilement un contenu à caractère porno.


FYI, Le Trésor gives "Voir ou regarder attentivement" at the entry "mater".


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## Itisi

*friask*, I don't think _anyone_ has said that 'mater' only meant 'lustful ogling'.  (I actually said that wasn't the case).    *Punk Zoe *has summed things up.


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## friasc

> *friask, I don't think anyone has said that 'mater' only meant 'lustful ogling'. (I actually said that wasn't the case). Punk Zoe has summed things up.*



A year later, I'm still wondering about this! What I meant, Itisi, is that the colloquial use of the verb 'mater' (nothing to do with the sense of 'dompter', 'asservir', etc.) seems to mean two very different actions. On one hand, it means, like Pukny zoe explained, 'regarder fixement (avec ou sans convoitise)', perhaps we could translate this sense of the word as 'stare'. On the other hand, it seems we can use 'mater' when we are watching TV, activity which demands a lesser degree of attention. I must not understand something, because this seems like a contradiction: how is it possible to use the same verb for two apparently different ways of looking? How can one both (excuse the machist examples) "mater le décolleté d'une jolie femme" in other words stare intensely, and "mater un film dans l'avion" which could suggest a more distracted mode of viewing (à moins que ce soit un film avec des filles en tenue légère, mais alors justement on revient au sens premier du verbe)? I'm not sure I understand the 'logic' behind this verb.


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## Mauricet

Moi, c'est la logique de (cette relance de) la question qui m'échappe : comment s'étonner qu'un verbe signifie différentes actions, selon le contexte ?? Ce n'est pas propre à _mater_, que je sache ...


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## Wordsmyth

Je suis d'accord avec Mauricet. Il y a beaucoup de mots (verbes et autres) qui ont plus qu'un seul sens.

Ws


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## guillaumedemanzac

Having read all the totally varied interpretations, IMHO "to get an eyeful (of)" or "to eyeball" seem the best English for mater - 1960s slang would be to goggle (at) - though that has made a comeback with the TV programme "GoggleBox" which is people watching tv avidly and commenting on programmes they consistently watch = mater ?????


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## friasc

> Moi, c'est la logique de (cette relance de) la question qui m'échappe : comment s'étonner qu'un verbe signifie différentes actions, selon le contexte ?? Ce n'est pas propre à _mater, que je sache ..._



C'est vrai qu'avec une telle insistance, ma question peut sembler tourner à l'obsession... toujours est-il que j'ai l'impression que quelque chose m'échappe dans l'emploi de ce verbe. Je comprends qu'un même mot puisse avoir des sens opposés ("hôte", "louer", etc.), mais il me semble qu'ici c'est plus une question de nuance que d'opposition sémantique. A ce que je comprends, "Mater" signifie regarder d'une certaine façon; et cette façon peut varier selon le contexte. On peut mater une femme aussi bien qu'un match de foot. Mais quel est le lien entre ces deux façons de voir ? De "regarder très attentivement (surtout un objet de désir sexuel)" comment passe-t-on à "regarder" dans un sens plus général, de sorte qu'on parle éventuellement de "mater une émission de télé" sans que celle-ci ait forcément un contenu érotique. 

Pour simplifier ma question : abstraitement, quel est le sens "de base" du verbe "mater" ? Ce verbe est-il essentiellement "neutre", ou comporte-t-il toujours une nuance de perversité (mater serait donc regarder avec trop d'attention, regarder ce qu'il ne faut pas voir, etc.)

Enfin, mon incompréhension face à cette polysémie m'a déjà causé des ennuis professionels  voilà pourquoi j'insiste


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## guillaumedemanzac

Contexte, context.  English would change the preposition/particle.

You can eye up a woman. You can watch a football match on the Goggle Box. Go to U-tube and get an eyeful of that naked woman running round Central Park. You can eye-ball that agressive bloke in the pub - but be careful not to stare too long or he might turn on you. "I can't take my eyes off of you" was a pop-song with unnecessary second preposition because it had to scan with the music.


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## franc 91

and so I got my turn to have a good look at/watch him (as he was lying there yelling in pain) - suggestion


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## Itisi

*friasc*, voici les sens que Wikitionnaire donne à 'mater' (dans le sens de regarder) :


_(Argot)_ ou _(Populaire)_ Regarder attentivement.
_Il me *mate* sans arrêt, ça commence à m’énerver !_

_(Argot)_ ou _(Populaire)_ Observer avec concupiscence, faire le voyeur.
_Les voisins qui aimaient la mater dans son jardin ont été condamnés par la justice._


Donc la suggestion de *franc* est la bonne, à mon avis.


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## guillaumedemanzac

Itisi said:


> *friasc*, voici les sens que Wikitionnaire donne à 'mater' (dans le sens de regarder) :
> 
> 
> _(Argot)_ ou _(Populaire)_ Regarder attentivement.
> _Il me *mate* sans arrêt, ça commence à m’énerver !_
> 
> _(Argot)_ ou _(Populaire)_ Observer avec concupiscence, faire le voyeur.
> _Les voisins qui aimaient la mater dans son jardin ont été condamnés par la justice._
> 
> 
> Donc la suggestion de *franc* est la bonne, à mon avis.



Il m'est venu qu'il faut chercher l'origine de "mater" - does it mean to master, to checkmate?? to control and to overcome - English would be to stare down, to refuse to give way by blinking when someone tries to "stare you out".

Your example 2 argot is voyeurism!!!    sneaking a look at.......  but this form of "mater"seems to mean "dominate by a fixed look".


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## Mauricet

Il y a trois verbes _mater_ différents (sans compter _mâter_ ...). Celui dont il est question dans ce fil est le plus récent, et argotique. Son étymologie d'après CNRTL :





> *Étymol. et Hist.* 1897 (s. réf. ds Chautard, _Vie étrange arg._, p.304).  Orig. incertaine. Peut-être dér. de _mata_ dans l'expr. du fr. d'Afrique du Nord _faire la mata_ «faire le guet», ou simplement _mata!_ exclamation utilisée par celui qui fait le guet pour donner l'alerte; empr. à l'esp. _mata_ «buisson» (_cf._ Lanly, pp.130-131). Évolution sém. probable: «buisson M lieu où l'on se cache pour faire le guet M guet». _Cf_. les expr. esp. _saltar de la mata_ «se faire connaître (en parlant de quelqu'un qui était caché)», _a salto de mata_ «en fuyant et se cachant», _andar a salto de mata_ «être sur le qui-vive».


Rien à voir, donc, avec le _mater_ dérivé du _mat_ des échecs (dominer, contrôler ...)


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## Wordsmyth

... et ce dernier est dérivé de l'arabe _māt(a)_ = il est mort. 

(Bon, en anglais on dit "If looks could kill ...", mais quand on mate quelqu'un il est peu probable qu'on veuille le tuer!)

Ws


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