# Urdu: birth certificate



## teaboy

What is the official term for birth certificate? Must be _paidaaish something_, yes?


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## BP.

I don't know that they call it really, but I can suggest _sanad e aafriinish_ - سندِ آفرینش. You could add _naamah _after _sanad _if you wish.

I don't like the use of _paedaa2ish _for birth. For me it is simply synonymous with _maujuudgii_.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I don't know that they call it really, but I can suggest _sanad e aafriinish_ - سندِ آفرینش. You could add _naamah _after _sanad _if you wish.
> 
> I don't like the use of _paedaa2ish _for birth. For me it is simply synonymous with _maujuudgii_.



I think "sanad-i-aafriiish" may give the connotation "Certificate of creation"! 

I too wonder sometimes whether "paidaa'ish/paidaayish" really has anything to do with birth but Steingass has this entry and this word is the normal "official" word in Urdu for birth as in "taariiKh-i-paidaa'ish" (date of birth).

If one went to obtain a "birth certificate" in Pakistan, what one would be given is "naql-i-paidaa'ish" which is a copy from the register of births and deaths. So, in a way, "naql-i-paidaa'ish" is one's birth certificate.

To answer the original question, I would go for the following "paidaa'ishii saarTiifikeT" or "paidaa'ish naamah" for the time being. I say this because I am sure someone will come up with a better alternative!


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> I think "sanad-i-aafriiish" may give the connotation "Certificate of creation"!
> 
> I too wonder sometimes whether "paidaa'ish/paidaayish" really has anything to do with birth but Steingass has this entry and this word is the normal "official" word in Urdu for birth as in "taariiKh-i-paidaa'ish" (date of birth)....



OK how about سندِ تولید/ولادت then? 

As for date of birth, I've begun saying _taariikhe aafriinish_ and nobody has yet not understood. But the official or the widely accepted term is as you say _taariikhe paedaa2ish_.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> OK how about سندِ تولید/ولادت then?
> 
> As for date of birth, I've begun saying _taariikhe aafriinish_ and nobody has yet not understood. But the official or the widely accepted term is as you say _taariikhe paedaa2ish_.



tauliid carries the meaning of "reproduction". I would certainly go along with "vilaadat-naamah". To my mind "sanad" inclines more towards a "qualification" than a paper cerificate.


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> tauliid carries the meaning of "reproduction". ...


Upon reflection, yes we may drop it in favour of wilaadat.


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## teaboy

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I don't know that they call it really, but I can suggest _sanad e aafriinish_ - سندِ آفرینش. You could add _naamah _after _sanad _if you wish.
> 
> I don't like the use of _paedaa2ish _for birth. For me it is simply synonymous with _maujuudgii_.



_Paida karna_ seems a lot more actively about birth than _maujud hona_!


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## Qureshpor

teaboy said:


> _Paida karna_ seems a lot more actively about birth than _maujud hona_!



I would tend to agree with you here.

paidaa honaa = to come into being/ to be born

paidaa karnaa = to cause to come into being/ to give birth to..

maujuud honaa = to be present/to exist


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## BP.

حضرات، معلوم ہوتا ہے کہ تنوٌعِ معانی کی تفہیم کی جنس ناپید ہوتی جا رہی ہے!​


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> حضرات، معلوم ہوتا ہے کہ تنوٌعِ معانی کی تفہیم کی جنس ناپید ہوتی جا رہی ہے!​



janaab-i-giraamii-i-man, aadaab-o-tasliimaat.

Huzuur, bandah-i-Haqiir-o-pur-taqsiir ne faqat apnii raa'e kaa izhaar kiyaa hai. zaruurii nahiiN kih aap ise Harf-i-aaKhir samjheN.


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## BP.

Take it as an example using a derivative of _paedaa_!


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## Cilquiestsuens

I know my answer will shock / disappoint / irritate you, but teaboy was asking for the official word... I am pretty sure it is 'birth certificate' in Urdu in 2011 Pakistan (let me check tomorrow when I have time), I meant to say: _birth sarTifikeT_....

Now, Urdu speakers call it simply _janam-parchii_...


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## BP.

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I know my answer will shock / disappoint /  irritate you, but teaboy was asking for the official word... I am  pretty sure it is 'birth certificate' in Urdu in 2011 Pakistan (let me  check tomorrow when I have time), I meant to say: _birth sarTifikeT_....


_Birth certificate_ might be the official word, and therefore the one we might offer to an official, but can we not talk about it amongst ourselves otherwise? 



Cilquiestsuens said:


> ...
> Now, Urdu speakers call it simply _janam-parchii_...


Wow that's a simple and succinct. That's the first time I've seen use of _parchii _in this way. I like it. But I might need explain to some of the people what _jaNme _means each time I use it.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _Birth certificate_ might be the official word, and therefore the one we might offer to an official, but can we not talk about it amongst ourselves otherwise?
> 
> 
> Wow that's a simple and succinct. That's the first time I've seen use of _parchii _in this way. I like it. But I might need explain to some of the people what _jaNme _means each time I use it.



Yes, it might be a "wow and simple.." but how many *Urdu* speakers use "janam"? Besides, "parchi" means no more than a slip of paper. Not quite a certificate.


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## Cilquiestsuens

QURESHPOR said:


> Yes, it might be a "wow and simple.." but how many *Urdu* speakers use "janam"? Besides, "parchi" means no more than a slip of paper. Not quite a certificate.



You should just trust me on this... 

Check it out here, and here, and here, and here.... 

Every-one in Pakistan understands this word...

As for ولادت نامہ technically there's nothing wrong in it, but it's just not used... There is a common word that sounds like it:  وصیت نامہ wasiyat-naamah (will, testament)...

Another official word, which really sounds ugly to me is : پیدائشی سرٹیفکیٹ.


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## teaboy

Urdu is so much fun!  Seriously, it is a very creative and ever-evolving language!


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> You should just trust me on this...
> 
> Check it out here, and here, and here, and here....
> 
> Every-one in Pakistan understands this word...
> 
> As for ولادت نامہ technically there's nothing wrong in it, but it's just not used... There is a common word that sounds like it:  وصیت نامہ wasiyat-naamah (will, testament)...
> 
> Another official word, which really sounds ugly to me is : پیدائشی سرٹیفکیٹ.




Ciiquiestsuens SaaHibah, aadaab-o-tasliimaat.

The links you have provided me, unfortunately, are tantamount to looking for a needle in a haystack! ......

I think if you stood in a street in Nazimabad, Karachi and carried out a survey asking 100 persons what the word for "Birth Certificate" was in Urdu, the reply would contain "paidaa'ish(ii)"/" naamah"/"certificate" in the 90+ of the cases with possibly vilaadat in the rest. As for "certificate", beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so we are told. I would eat my hat or "pagRii" if anyone came up with "janam parchii". 

Qureshpor


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## Koozagar

As far as I remember, I think it used to be called 'paidaish sertifikayte' with no izaafat or 'sertifikayte-e-paidaish', or simply 'birth sertifikayte'. 'Paidaish Naama' would be a good proper Urdu word. I don't remember hearing 'Janam Parchi'.
Would just like to add that as soon as we admit that ' kaard' and 'sertifikayte' are as much words of Urdu as 'vilaadat' and 'shanakht',  these matters will become easier to resolve.


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## BP.

Cilqui bhai,

The BBC is famous for its quirky use of Urdu. I wouldn't count on it for teaching somebody the language. As for the other links, the word's existence a revelation, but all three links could be using an official term (like _birth sarTificeeT_) in Bhaarat so someone might instictively say "Please hand me your janm parchi" even in English...just theorising for its apparent absence from our vocabulary.

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QURESHPOR said:


> The links you have provided me, unfortunately, are tantamount to looking for a needle in a haystack!


Please use the find feature of your web browser to locate the words. You'd have to first type it in the script elsewhere obviously.


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## Cilquiestsuens

QURESHPOR said:


> The links you have provided me, unfortunately, are tantamount to looking for a needle in a haystack!



If you don't have enough time to read twelve lines of Urdu at least you can just check the Edit menu of your browser and select the 'find' option and search for the word جنم پرچی . And if you don't know how to type Urdu on your computer you can still use this excellent transliteration website. 

And if you don't feel like reading more than two lines here is another reference.

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QURESHPOR said:


> I think if you stood in a street in Nazimabad, Karachi and carried out a survey asking 100 persons what the word for "Birth Certificate" was in Urdu, the reply would contain "paidaa'ish(ii)"/" naamah"/"certificate" in the 90+ of the cases with possibly vilaadat in the rest. As for "certificate", beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so we are told.



First to start with, *paidaa'ishii sarTifiikeT* is a word I was the first to mention in this thread in my previous post... I fail to see it in your previous suggestions. As for other words, like the one you seem to like a lot... vilaadat-(naamah), it is in my knowledge not the official word in any of the four+ provinces of Pakistan.  

As for judging the beauty of that word, I see nothing wrong in _*parchii*_... What you mean to say maybe, is that this word is not a proper word for a certificate... Not Arabic enough??? Well, as you know, * parchaa* is used for F.I.R., don't tell me you don't know this one... 

Moreover, *janam-parchii*, as I mentioned in my above post, is not an official word, it is rather informal... What surprised me is that upon googling it, I found more instances of it than in any other words (I was not expecting to see it written).... It means this word made its way to the media...

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QURESHPOR said:


> I would eat my hat or "pagRii" if anyone came up with "janam parchii".



Will you be true to your words? . I wish you don't come across the authors of the numerous online references I have already provided... or their readers... or go bareheaded...


As for another of your assumptions, about the word *janam*, let me disagree with you again. The  verb جنم لینا  janam lena is commonly used in the Urdu language, so I would say yes,  the word جنم is still understood as an Urdu word (and not purely Hindi)...


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## Qureshpor

muHtaramii-o-mukarramii janaab-i-Ciiquiestsuens SaaHib, aadaab 'arz hai.

.....

Teaboy SaaHib/ah ne apnii pahlii  post meN "birth certificate" ke sarkaarii mutabaadil ke baare meN  puuchhaa thaa. tiisrii hii posT meN maiN ne "paidaaishii saarTifikeT"  aur " paidaa'ish naamah" likh kar apnii raa'e kaa izhaar kiyaa thaa.  shaayad aap ne merii posT Ghaur se nahiiN paRhii. chauthii posT meN BP  SaaHib ne "vilaadat" ko zer-i-baHs laayaa aur maiN ne "vilaadat-naamah"  ko bhii ek achchaa tarjumah gardaanaa. yaad rahe kih post no.18 meN  Koozagar SaaHib/ah ne "paidaa'ish certificate" aur "birth certificate"  se maanuus hone kaa i'tiraaf kiyaa jab kih "janam parchii" se laa-'ilmii  kaa izhaar kiyaa hai. yahaaN tak kih BP SaaHib ko is baat kaa andeshah  thaa kih shaayad unheN kuchh logoN ko "janam" ke ma'nii samjhaane paReN!  maiN ne apnii posT (no.14) meN yih hargiz nahiiN kahaa kih log "janam"  ko samajhte nahiiN balkih yih savaal puuchhaa thaa kih is lafz ko "kitne  Urdu bolne vaale log isti'maal karte haiN". maiN maantaa huuN kih  Hindustaanii filmoN ke zer-i-asar 'aam log bahut se aise alfaaz se  shinaasaa haiN lekin merii Haqiir raa'e meN Urdu-daan "janam lenaa" kii  jagah "paidaa honaa" bartate haiN. maiN ab bhii is baat par musirr huuN  kih "janam parchii" birth certificate ke liye nah sirf munaasib lafz  nahiiN balkih aap ise 'aamiyaanah (slang) taHriiroN hii meN shaayad  paa'eN. is lafz (parchii) kaa 'arabii nah hone se mujhe kuchh farq  nahiiN paRtaa. aur jii haaN, maiN parchah aur is ke ishtiqaaq se bahut  achchhii tarH vaaqif huuN. merii nazar meN ko'ii bhii lafz bad-numaa  nahiiN. agar log kisii bhii lafz ko apnii bol-chaal meN isti'maal karte  haiN to us lafz kii asl se sar-o-kaar nahiiN honaa chaahiye.

meraa  javaab pahle hii bahut taviil ho gayaa hai. chuuN kih yih ek  "moderated" anjuman hai is liye maiN aap kii tamaam baatoN kaa yahaaN  javaab denaa jaa'iz nahiiN samajhtaa. vaise Urdu qavaamiis/farhang,  qaumiyyat, mazhab aur 'Abbaasii Khaandaan ko is baHs meN laanaa  be-ma'nii aur Ghair-zaruurii thaa.

Qureshpor


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## teaboy

Wow!  I really did not mean to start all this!  One of the reasons why I love Urdu is that there is so much to it - and it is so creative and there is no absolute single way things are said.  It is not Latin or Sanskrit: it is alive and well, and it does my heart good to see all the myriad ways the human mind can express itself in just one language.  

That said, I was actually looking for the term one could expect when filling out a govt form, rather than intending to create a new (and seemingly Arabo-philic) term.  And I certainly didn't mean to have people slicing and dicing each other's tongues or ancestries.  

Araam karen-ji!


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## BP.

QP sahib, the language by mutual courtesy on this board is English. We have a diverse member base, and selfishly speaking I find it much harder to read roman Urdu. Please don't mind my saying.

@teaboy, none of the terms suggested were 'arabo-phillic'. Strange you see that. The only two words of Arabic borrowing were wilaadat and sanad, but nobody would consider them any more Arabic than native.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> QP sahib, the language by mutual courtesy on this board is English. We have a diverse member base, and selfishly speaking I find it much harder to read roman Urdu. Please don't mind my saying.
> 
> @teaboy, none of the terms suggested were 'arabo-phillic'. Strange you see that. The only two words of Arabic borrowing were wilaadat and sanad, but nobody would consider them any more Arabic than native.



BP SaaHib, you make a valid point and I have no problem with writing in English. However, I thought that if one can write in French when Farsi is being discussed, why not use Urdu when Urdu is being discussed. I would n't like to think that all languages are equal but some are more equal than others!

Also, I seem to detect an anti-Arabic mindset. May be it's just my imagination.


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## Cilquiestsuens

.....
 



qureshpor said:


> teaboy saahib/ah ne apnii pahlii  post men "birth certificate" ke sarkaarii mutabaadil ke baare men  puuchhaa thaa. Tiisrii hii post men main ne "paidaaishii saartifiket"  aur " paidaa'ish naamah" likh kar apnii raa'e kaa izhaar kiyaa thaa.  Shaayad aap ne merii post ghaur se nahiin parhii. Chauthii post men bp  saahib ne "vilaadat" ko zer-i-bahs laayaa aur main ne "vilaadat-naamah"  ko bhii ek achchaa tarjumah gardaanaa. Yaad rahe kih post no.18 men  koozagar saahib/ah ne "paidaa'ish certificate" aur "birth certificate"  se maanuus hone kaa i'tiraaf kiyaa jab kih "janam parchii" se laa-'ilmii  kaa izhaar kiyaa hai. Yahaan tak kih bp saahib ko is baat kaa andeshah  thaa kih shaayad unhen kuchh logon ko "janam" ke ma'nii samjhaane paren!  Main ne apnii post (no.14) men yih hargiz nahiin kahaa kih log "janam"  ko samajhte nahiin balkih yih savaal puuchhaa thaa kih is lafz ko "kitne  urdu bolne vaale log isti'maal karte hain". Main maantaa huun kih  hindustaanii filmon ke zer-i-asar 'aam log bahut se aise alfaaz se  shinaasaa hain lekin merii haqiir raa'e men urdu-daan "janam lenaa" kii  jagah "paidaa honaa" bartate hain. Main ab bhii is baat par musirr huun  kih "janam parchii" birth certificate ke liye nah sirf munaasib lafz  nahiin balkih aap ise 'aamiyaanah (slang) tahriiron hii men shaayad  paa'en. Is lafz (parchii) kaa 'arabii nah hone se mujhe kuchh farq  nahiin partaa. Aur jii haan, main parchah aur is ke ishtiqaaq se bahut  achchhii tarh vaaqif huun. Merii nazar men ko'ii bhii lafz bad-numaa  nahiin. Agar log kisii bhii lafz ko apnii bol-chaal men isti'maal karte  hain to us lafz kii asl se sar-o-kaar nahiin honaa chaahiye.




مجھے اعتراض نہیں آپ کی زیادہ تر باتوں پر سوا اس کےشا‌‎ئد کہ سلینگ کی بجا‌ۓ ،  کا لو کوی آل جیسا لفظ زیادہ صحیح مناسب اور حقیقت کے قریب لگتا ہے.  باقی مجھے مو شگافیوں ميں پڑنے کا شوق ہے نہ میری مصروفیات اس کی اجازت دیتی ہیں. بہرحال، لفظ جنم پرچی کی بابت کچھ اور باتیں عرض کرنا چاہوں گا ، ایک تو یہ کہ کافی کھوج لگانے کے باوجود – یعنی مختلف زبانوں کی چند نامور لغات کے مطالعہ کے بعد، اس مرکب کی اصل کا کو‏ئ سراغ نہیں مل پایا ، لگتا ہے کہ وہ اردو کا لفظ ہے، نہ پنجابی کا، نہ ہندی کا... (ہندی میں جنم پرمانک* کہتے ہیں)... دو یہ کہ اپنے بیٹے کا *برتھ سرٹیکیٹ*میں نے ڈھونڈھ لیا ہے اس پر ''پیدا‌ئش سرٹیکیٹ" ہی لکھا ہے. اب یقینی طور پر یہ کہ سکتے ہیں کہ پاکستان میں یہی الفاظ سرکاری طور پر مستعمل ہیں ​


qureshpor said:


> meraa  javaab pahle hii bahut taviil ho gayaa hai. Chuun kih yih ek  "moderated" anjuman hai is liye main aap kii tamaam baaton kaa yahaan  javaab denaa jaa'iz nahiin samajhtaa. Vaise urdu qavaamiis/farhang,  qaumiyyat, mazhab aur 'abbaasii khaandaan ko is bahs men laanaa  be-ma'nii aur ghair-zaruurii thaa.
> 
> Qureshpor



 اورہاں ایک آخری بات، میں نے خاندان کا نہیں، عباسی دور کا ذکر کیا تھا، جو کہ جیسا کہ آپ با خوبی جانتے ہیں اسلامی دنیا میں علوم و فنون کے عروج کا دور تھا. اس کا تذکرہ اسی حوالے سے تھا



qureshpor said:


> also, i seem to detect an anti-arabic mindset. May be it's just my imagination.



من الّذي يحبّ اللغة العربية أكثرمني يا أخي الكريم ‏‏؟

जनम प्रमाणक    = *  
​


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## marrish

Cilquiestsuens said:


> *برتھ سرٹیکیٹ*میں نے ڈھونڈھ لیا ہے اس پر ''پیدا‌ئش سرٹیکیٹ" ہی لکھا ہے. اب یقینی طور پر یہ کہ سکتے ہیں کہ پاکستان میں یہی الفاظ سرکاری طور پر مستعمل ہیں​


بھارت میں  اس طرح کے کاغذات اردو میں دستیاب ہوتے ہیں؟ وہاں کیا مروج ہوتا ہے؟ بھولیے نہ  کہ پاکستان پر اردو دنیا ختم نہیں ہوتی۔

علاوہ ازیں، چونکہ میں نے اس لڑی میں پہلے شرکت نہیں کی تھی، میں آپ اور قریشپور صاحب سے متفق ہوں کہ واقعی پاکستان میں پیدائش سرٹیفکیٹ استعمال ہوتا ہے (ف کے ساتھ)۔ سندِ پیدائش سب سے اچھا لگتا ہے۔ ولادت اس لیے سراسر غلط ہے کہ ماں بھی تو ہوتی ہے!۔  میرے خیال سے ولادت صرف والد کی نشاندہی کرتی ہے مگر میں غلطی پر ہو سکتا ہوں۔​


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