# Welsh: Ffordd



## Alxmrphi

Hi all,

I am wondering about the word_ ffordd_ in Welsh.
I am not sure if it is a word that has (at least) 2 clear cut, _different_ meanings (though related) or if it's just a _general _word used to convey _way / path / road_ in English.

Most bilingual roads here have a _Ffordd _counterpart, but there are also bilingual signs that have_ way / direction_ meanings. For example the "_One Way_" sign is "_Unffordd_", but other road names also have the word.

So is it _a _word that is describing _one_ general concept (i.e. of direction) and has 2 translations in English. Or is it a word that covers the two English senses of _way_ and _road_.

Just curious!


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## Gavril

Alxmrphi said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am wondering about the word_ ffordd_ in Welsh.
> I am not sure if it is a word that has (at least) 2 clear cut, _different_ meanings (though related) or if it's just a _general _word used to convey _way / path / road_ in English.
> 
> Most bilingual roads here have a _Ffordd _counterpart, but there are also bilingual signs that have_ way / direction_ meanings. For example the "_One Way_" sign is "_Unffordd_", but other road names also have the word.
> 
> So is it _a _word that is describing _one_ general concept (i.e. of direction) and has 2 translations in English. Or is it a word that covers the two English senses of _way_ and _road_.
> 
> Just curious!



I'd say that the second option is probably correct. In my opinion, Modern Welsh is heavily semantically influenced by English, due to the large number of people who learn Welsh with English as their first language. In the case of _ffordd_, the Welsh word seems to be used in more or less the same contexts where the words _way _and _road _would be used in English.

For example, _ar y ffordd _means "in the way (of something)" and "on the way/road (to somewhere)", _dangos y ffordd _means "show the way", and as you mention, _unffordd _means "one-way". _ffordd _can even mean "way" in the sense of "manner", just like English _way_: one internet page has the phrase _pa ffordd y bwriadant bleidleisio _"the way that they intend to vote". I think the reason for such exact correspondence is that Modern Welsh speakers are taking the English word as a model for how to use the Welsh word.

I hope that helps answer your question.


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## Herefordian

I read somewhere that Welsh _fordd_, way, is a loan-word from English.  Can anyone confirm that, and if so, does anyone know when the borrowing took place?

I have a nice little theory which depends on its being either not a loan word, or a very early one.


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## L'irlandais

Hi Herefordian,
Welcome to the forum.  I haven't a word of Welsh.  But while we've waiting for a Welsh-speaker to happen along, here's 
an *etymological* link which may (or may not) be of passing interest to you.

It suggests the Welsh for ford is rhyd, which makes me Wonder (out loud) if_ fordd_ has taken a different meaning in Welsh?


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## Herefordian

Thanks, irlandais, diolch yn fawr.  Yes, fordd means "way" in  modern Welsh. You hear everyday modern phrases like fordd allan, "way out".  So if it is a loan-word, it's not straightforward.

Oh dear!  The word is, of course, spelt _fford_.  _Ford_​ would be pronounced 'vorth'.  What a cock-up - sorry, ffolks!


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## Herefordian

Interesting.  Thanks very much, irlandais.  I've since found that the general opinion is that _ffordd _ is indeed a loan from English 'ford'.  Unless I can show that the borrowing took place pre, say, 700 my nice theory is dead.  Oh, well.


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## Tegs

It is definitely a borrowing from Old English _ford _and the earliest example cited in Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the Welsh dictionary) is in the 12th century. Nothing dating from 700.


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## Walshie79

But "ford" doesn't mean "road" or "way" in English. It means "river crossing". Which is "rhyd*" in Welsh. Yes it comes from the same root as "fare" (as in "thoroughfare") but AFAIK it meant the same in Old English as it does now, so why the change of meaning in Welsh?

*Is this word actually cognate with ford/fare too? Considering Celtic loses the p which becomes f in Germanic it seems quite possible.


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## Gavril

Walshie79 said:


> But "ford" doesn't mean "road" or "way" in English. It means "river crossing". Which is "rhyd*" in Welsh. Yes it comes from the same root as "fare" (as in "thoroughfare") but AFAIK it meant the same in Old English as it does now, so why the change of meaning in Welsh?



Maybe semantic widening from "path for crossing a river" to "path/road (in general)"? 

For what it's worth, according to the Etymonline site, English _road_ itself developed from the meaning "riding expedition, hostile incursion" (OE) to "riding, journey" (ME) to "open way for journeying between two places" (Mod. English).



> *Is this word actually cognate with ford/fare too? Considering Celtic loses the p which becomes f in Germanic it seems quite possible.



Yes, the Etymoline entry for "ford" supports the connection between _ford_ and_ rhyd_.


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## Walshie79

Gavril said:


> Maybe semantic widening from "path for crossing a river" to "path/road (in general)"?
> 
> For what it's worth, according to the Etymonline site, English _road_ itself developed from the meaning "riding expedition, hostile incursion" (OE) to "riding, journey" (ME) to "open way for journeying between two places"



"Raid" is originally just a northern dialectal pronunciation of "road". But I think "road" (OE rad) still had something close to its current meaning too, in some OE poem the sea is referred to as "hronrad" ("whale-road").


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## Gavril

Walshie79 said:


> "Raid" is originally just a northern dialectal pronunciation of "road". But I think "road" (OE rad) still had something close to its current meaning too, in some OE poem the sea is referred to as "hronrad" ("whale-road").



Well, it still seems as though a semantic development from "the action of riding" to "the location for riding" must have occurred at some point. (As long as we accept that the verb _to ride_ preceded the noun _road_.)


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