# persimmon



## elroy

I'm wondering what words different languages use for "persimmon."

The word used in Palestinian Arabic is كاكا (_kāka_), which also means "poop"! 

I've always found this a most unfortunate name for the fruit.  I wonder if it was borrowed from another language in which the word is benign?

Thanks!


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## Sardokan1.0

In Italian is "cachi" or also written "kaki"


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## apmoy70

In Greek it's *«λωτός»* [loˈtos] (masc.) < Classical masc. *«λωτός» lōtós* < a Mediterranean Wanderwort, οr *«διόσπυρος»* [ðiˈospiɾos] (masc.) --> _Zeus' fruit_ < *«Ζεύς» Zeú̯s* (masc. nom. sing.), *«Διός» Dĭós* (gen. sing.) + *«πῡρός» pūrós* (masc.).
Never heard of the names kaka, kaki, or cachi for the fruit.


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## Sardokan1.0

Apparently "Kaki" is the Japanese name

Persimmon - Wikipedia


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## Yendred

In French, this fruit is also called _kaki_.
_Diospyros kaki _is the species name of the tree.

As told by Sardokan, "_kaki_" comes from Japanese.
_"Diospyros_" (as told by apmoy70) comes from Greek ("the fruit of God")
and "_persimmon_" comes from Algonquian language meaning "dry fruit".

"_kaki_" is not to be confused with "_khaki_" color (the color of many army uniforms), which comes from Hindi, meaning "soil-colored".


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## bibax

Czech:

tree: *tomel japonský* (botanical term);

fruit:* kaki, churma* or *kaki-churma* (also written *kakichurma*, ch is pronounced [x], or sometimes [k], also written *kaki kurma*, also ... );

Rather rare in our shops.


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## Ghabi

In this part of the world, the fresh fruit (known as lam4ci2 腍柿 in Cantonese) is only eaten/displayed on the day of the Mid-Autumn Festival, otherwise it appears in its dried form (ci2beng2 柿餅 "persimmon cake", which has become a generic name for a very flat object in Cantonese, as in "the car was run over by a truck to become a persimmon cake"), which is extremely sweet.


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## Dymn

*Catalan *and *Spanish*: _caqui_


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## franknagy

elroy said:


> The word used in Palestinian Arabic is كاكا (_kāka_), which also means "poop"!



Hungarian : _kaki_ which means in childern's language _poop_, too.
So I prefer _kakiszilva_ where _szilva = plum_.


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## bibax

In Czech kakati = Latin cacare; e.g. Kaká kaká. = Kaká cacat. _(Kaká, the Brasilian footballer)
_
But no kaki derived from kakati, there is only a certain similarity with khaki (colour).


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## AndrasBP

In Hungarian it's also called _datolyaszilva _(date plum) which is longer than _kakiszilva_, but sounds much nicer!


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## KalAlbè

Portuguese: _Caqui_


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## franknagy

Is not is interesting that *the word "kaki"* ("kaka"/ "chaqui", ...) means the same thing in so many unrelated languages, is it?


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## bearded

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Italian is "cachi" or also written "kaki"


Correct.  Some Italians (including myself) say ''caco'' in the singular.
We  say 'cachi' also  for the colour.
The It. vulgar word for 'poop' is _cacca._


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## jazyk

The word I am familiar with in Portuguese is caqui (stress on the last syllable).


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## Sardokan1.0

bearded said:


> Correct.  Some Italians (including myself) say ''caco'' in the singular.
> We  say 'cachi' also  for the colour.
> The It. vulgar word for 'poop' is _cacca._



I've heard sometimes on tv people saying "caco"; here is considered weird, no one would name the fruit "caco"


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> *Catalan *and *Spanish*: _caqui_



In *Spanish*, it can also be written kaki. Same pronounciation in both cases.


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## franknagy

@Circumflejo
Caqui/kaki
Off topic question:
The Latin and Romance languages disliked the the letter *"K".* Why? Because it is a Greek letter?
Nowadays, however, the letter "K" is respected again.


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## Yendred

franknagy said:


> Is not is interesting that *the word "kaki"* ("kaka"/ "chaqui", ...) means the same thing in so many unrelated languages, is it?



Well it's just because the word has an exotic origin in all these languages, and because it evenly describes an exotic object for all the cultures of these languages.

You can observe the same effect for example with the word "_kangaroo_":
English: _kangaroo_
French: _kangourou_
German: _Känguru_
Spanish & Italian: _kangaroo_
etc.

The word had no reason to evolve diferently in all these languages since all these cultures have the same relation with an object attached to Australia and the word describing it attached to its australian indigenous origin.
(although according to Wikipedia, the etymology of "kangaroo", supposed to mean "I don't understand" in local indigenous language, is mythological)


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## Circunflejo

Yendred said:


> Spanish & Italian: _kangaroo_



You got the Spanish wrong. It's canguro in *Spanish*.


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## sound shift

I know them as "persimmons", but I've often seen them advertised in the UK as "Sharon Fruit". I've just found out that that's a trade name.


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## Yendred

Circunflejo said:


> You got the Spanish wrong. It's canguro in *Spanish*.



Oops sorry! I got it wrong 
Thanks for the correction.


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## bearded

Circunflejo said:


> It's canguro in *Spanish*.


Same in* Italian.*


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## Welsh_Sion

*Welsh

persimon* (n.m.) (We don't really like doubling letters ...)
*eirinen* (n.f.)* goch* = 'red plum'

*caci* (n.m.) = 'kaki' (fruit). (We don't do <k> anymore).

And* cangarŵ *(n.m.) for 'kangaroo'.


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## apmoy70

bearded said:


> Same in* Italian.*


Same in Greek: *«(το) Καγκουρό»* [(tɔ) kaŋ.ɡuˈɾɔ] (neut.) --> _(the) - neut. definite article in the nominative - canɡaroo_


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## bearded

apmoy70 said:


> Same in Greek: *«(το) Καγκουρό»*


...except for the stress, I would say  . Our word is _cangùro._


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## alfaalfa

Ciao





apmoy70 said:


> In Greek it's *«λωτός»* [loˈtos]


In *Italian  *too we say _loto _(even if it's rarely used)_. _


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## symposium

Sardokan1.0 said:


> I've heard sometimes on tv people saying "caco"; here is considered weird, no one would name the fruit "caco"


Here I've always heard and said "caco"; until I read this thread I even thought it was an Italian word ("caco" because it's as soft as...  ).


franknagy said:


> The Latin and Romance languages disliked the the letter *"K".* Why? Because it is a Greek letter?


That might be an interesting question. First of all, one has to see how common the letter K was in written Latin: if its use was not very widespread it doesn't come as a surprise that it just fell out of use in most Romance languages. Secondly, I suppose it was a matter of intelligibility: maybe written K was too easily mistakable for other letters (perhaps Rs or Hs) so they decided to discart it altogether in favour of longer yet clearer ways to indicate the same sound ("qui/que" in Spanish and French, "chi/che" in Italian). There are no words with Ks in modern Spanish, French or Italian apart from foreign words that have been adopted into those languages.


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## Awwal12

In Russian it's хурма (khurmá) [xʊr'ma], a loanword from Turkic languages (the fruit doesn't grow in Central Russia, obviously, being cultivated only in the southernmost regions of the modern day Russia).


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## Welsh_Sion

symposium said:


> Here I've always heard and said "caco"; until I read this thread I even thought it was an Italian word ("caco" because it's as soft as...  ).
> 
> That might be an interesting question. First of all, one has to see how common the letter K was in written Latin: if its use was not very widespread it doesn't come as a surprise that it just fell out of use in most Romance languages. Secondly, I suppose it was a matter of intelligibility: maybe written K was too easily mistakable for other letters (perhaps Rs or Hs) so they decided to discart it altogether in favour of longer yet clearer ways to indicate the same sound ("qui/que" in Spanish and French, "chi/che" in Italian). There are no words with Ks in modern Spanish, French or Italian apart from foreign words that have been adopted into those languages.



I can't speak for the history of the Romance languages, but I'll add this piece as an aside to this interesting question.

The Welsh New Testament was translated in 1567, and the London printers (Wales had been annexed by the Kingdom of England in the previous generation) did not have enough *<k>*'s to satisfy the needs of the Welsh. So, the translator, William Salesbury, banished *<k>* from our alphabet and replaced it with *<c>* in all cases. To this day, *<c>* *always* has the sound of */k/* in Welsh words.

The only possibilities of having *<k>* in Welsh would be in personal names appropriated from other places, e.g. *'Keith', 'Kaunda'* or in the prefix *'kilo-', *where even then* 'cilo-' *could be used. In spelling a word with this letter in it, we would say *'ce' /ke:/.* So,* 'Kenneth' *would be* 'ce: e: dʊi en e: eθ'.*


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## nimak

In *Macedonian* it is called *јапонско јаболко* (_jáponsko jábolko_) ['japɔnskɔ 'jabɔɫkɔ] _lit. "Japanese apple"_. The term *каки* (_káki_) ['kaki] is also known.

p.s. Like in some other languages, in Macedonian children's language *каки* (_káki_) ['kaki], *кака* _sg_. means: _"poop", "dirt"_.


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## apmoy70

Awwal12 said:


> In Russian it's хурма (khurmá) [xʊr'ma], a loanword from Turkic languages (the fruit doesn't grow in Central Russia, obviously, being cultivated only in the southernmost regions of the modern day Russia).


In Greek *«χουρμάς»* [xurˈmas] (masc.) is the date fruit < Tur. hurma


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## Awwal12

apmoy70 said:


> In Greek *«χουρμάς»* [xurˈmas] (masc.) is the date fruit < Tur. hurma


Yes, there obviously was some sort of confusion about exotic southern fruits.  In Russian the word for the date fruit is "финик" (fínik), from Byzantine Greek.


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## apmoy70

Awwal12 said:


> Yes, there obviously was some sort of confusion about exotic southern fruits.  In Russian the word for the date fruit is "финик" (fínik), from Byzantine Greek.


Ah, from the Byzantine *«φοινικοβάλανος» phoi̯nikobálanos* (fem.) --> _nut of the palm tree_ (=*«φοῖνιξ»* (masc.), _palm tree_ + *«βάλανος»*, _acorn, nut in general_). It hasn't survived at all in MoGr, we prefer the Turkish word.


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## Awwal12

apmoy70 said:


> *phoi̯nikobálanos* (fem.)


That's the Ancient Greek transcription, though. Byzantine had already experienced most phonetic shifts leading to Modern Greek.


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## Nanon

Yendred said:


> In French, this fruit is also called _kaki_.
> [...]
> and "_persimmon_" comes from Algonquian language meaning "dry fruit".


There is another, seldom used French name: _plaquemine_, from the Algonquin _piakimin_ (or _piakimina -_ the local name for _Diospyros virginiana_ according to the French Wikipedia). 
_Plaqueminier _is the name of the tree, but some speakers use _kaki _for the tree as well as for the fruit.


jazyk said:


> The word I am familiar with in Portuguese is caqui (stress on the last syllable).


In European Portuguese, _dióspiro _is used.


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> In Russian it's хурма (khurmá) [xʊr'ma], a loanword from Turkic languages





apmoy70 said:


> In Greek *«χουρμάς»* [xurˈmas] (masc.) is the date fruit < Tur. hurma


I think it's worth mentioning that the Turkish word is of Persian origin:  *xurmâ *(meaning "date").


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## Şafak

Awwal12 said:


> In Russian it's хурма (khurmá) [xʊr'ma], a loanword from Turkic languages (the fruit doesn't grow in Central Russia, obviously, being cultivated only in the southernmost regions of the modern day Russia).


Hm... even though I agree with "hurma" sounds like a Turkic word, "hurma" means "date" in Turkish... I think "persimmon" is "trabzon hurması" or "japon hurması" (literally "Japanese date") in Turkish. Interesting.


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## Awwal12

Jennifer Weiss said:


> I think "persimmon" is "trabzon hurması" or "japon hurması" (literally "Japanese date") in Turkish.


Ah. That makes it clear then. It's just deletion of the attributive.


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## Delvo

franknagy said:


> Off topic question:
> The Latin and Romance languages disliked the the letter *"K".* Why? Because it is a Greek letter?





symposium said:


> That might be an interesting question. First of all, one has to see how common the letter K was in written Latin: if its use was not very widespread it doesn't come as a surprise that it just fell out of use in most Romance languages.


All Roman letters were Greek letters, so that's not it.

But the Romans didn't get the alphabet straight from the Greeks. Rome and the area around it were under Etruscan rule at the time, and the Greeks were primarily dealing with Etruscans, so the alphabet was used by Etruscans for a while before the Romans got it. And the Etruscan language appears to have lacked a distinction between voiced and unvoiced plosives. An Etruscan word with a T could also sometimes appear with a D, one with a P could also sometimes appear with a B, and one with a K could also sometimes appear with the letter that represented the sound we now associate with G, although it looked like a C. But instead of randomly switching back & forth indefinitely, they started arbitrarily favoring one letter over the other in each pair, so D, B, and K started getting less & less common (with T being used for both "*t*" and "*d*", P being used for both "*p*" and "*b*", and C being used for both "*k*" and "*g*"), and would probably have disappeared if the Romans hadn't started writing and preserved them. By that time, K had simply gotten farther along in that process of fading away than D or B had, so it was so rare that the Romans hardly thought of it as a letter at all anymore and weren't clear on how it was supposed to be different from C, which had ended up representing both its own original sound "*g*" and its counterpart "*k*" which the Etruscans considered the same sound. Eventually, the Romans decided that having one letter for both "*g*" and "*k*" was a bad plan, so they started marking it slightly differently depending on which of its two sounds was intended, thus creating G. But the new symbol got the letter's original sound and the old symbol was assigned a new sound, so C went from "*g*" to both "*g*" and "*k*" to just "*k*". (As a result, for any words that only appeared before then, like the name "Caius", we don't know the original pronunciation, which is why it sometimes gets rendered as "Gaius".)

There was an intermediate stage in which, regardless of whether the K/C/Q sound was voiced or not, there might have been some consistency for a while in the use of K before A, C before E and I and consonants, and Q before O and U (because it came from another Greek letter representing "*kʷʰ*" back when Greek still had that sound before it shifted to "*pʰ*").  This was probably based on the vowels in the letters' names: Kappa, Gimel, and Koppa/Qoppa. But, even before the invention of G, C started gradually taking over from K and Q before A and O, which drove K almost completely out of business, left behind the unique persistent digraph QU, and made C the natural choice as the one to make G out of.

K barely managed to hang on in Latin in just a few rare words with stubborn old spellings lingering from a previous era, and, since they mostly perceived it as a foreign letter, for quoting Greek words that used Kappa. It has that in common with Y, which was used for quoting Greek words containing the letter Upsilon.

Any other sounds you might think of for G and C other than "*g*" and "*k*", such as the sounds that English also spells with J, CH, or S, are the results of palatalization in later languages.

* * * * *

Back to the original topic about names for a plant, here's the persimmon page on a website that's full of various languages' words for a bunch of different kinds of plants:

M.M.P.N.D. - Sorting Diospyros names


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## Cowrie

*Japanese*: 柿/カキ/かき [kaki] (multiply cross-posted)

I could not find the definite, substantiated etymology of the name, but all the candidates I found were benign (such as red, shine, and solid).

Trivia: October 26 is Kaki Day in Japan. (I think most Japanese people are unaware, though.)

Happy Kaki Day!


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