# Hindi: Tera/Teri or Tumhara/Tumhari



## Darshwana

Dear All,

I have started to learn Hindi. I would like to write postcards to my friends but I have doubt about "tera/teri" and "tumhara/tumhari". 

I understant that one is more and another one less formal. But for example if I write to my friend Monica, I should write "tumhari Darshwana", but if Monica wrote to her boyfriend, could she write "teri Monica"? And for example if I wrote to my teacher, I could write "apki Darshwana" - is it correct...?

Thanking you in advance for your help,

Darshwana


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## Kraus

I'd suggest "tumhari". If I remember well, tera/teri is the possessive adjective related to "tu:", while tumhara/tumhari is related to "tum", and "tu:" is used when quarrelling or when addressing to God.


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## panjabigator

It's kind of a tough question but it has a simple answer, if that makes any sense.  The distinction between being formal and informal, and polite versus impolite is (duh!) really subjective here.  I have (close) friends that have always used /aap/, or the formal second person pronoun with me unfailingly.  Then there are other close friends who have stuck with /tum/ and still others with /tuu/.  I think that /tum/ is the simplest solution because you really can't go wrong.  It's meant for friends and you don't have to worry about being too formal.


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## Darshwana

Kraus, Panjabigator,
thank you very much for your help - Dhanyavaad


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## Darshwana

In a book "Hindi - teach yourself", page 21, it is written:

"tu - indicates great intimacy and is used in addressing a close loved one or a small child.

tum - is informal and casual and is used with a person expecting no formality or deference - a friend, child or servant."

And therefore after reading it I thoght that i.e. a girl writing to her boyfriend could write "teri Monica"... but maybe "tumhari Monica" will sound better.

Well, it is always very difficult to feel such "thin" differences like between "tu" and "tum"...


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## Kraus

I've learned Hindi with the same book


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## Illuminatus

Even between a boy-friend and a girl-friend, Teri monica or Tera XYZ sound outright cheap to me, though some couples might use it.

I can add a lot on this topic; The nuances of Tu, Tum and Aap are something I have to teach to many Indians too, who don't have Hindi as their first language.


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## macta123

Yes , Tera/Teri is a very cheap usage.
Tumhari is the only polite informal usage in this case


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## panjabigator

I don't really understand what is meant by cheap here.  Tu is also more common in different regions of the Hindi/Urdu speaking belt.  In Lucknow you'll almost never hear tu used, but the frequency is much higher in Delhi (maybe in Mumbai too).  In Lucknow, tu is understood to be a bit rude.


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## Illuminatus

panjabigator said:


> I don't really understand what is meant by cheap here. Tu is also more common in different regions of the Hindi/Urdu speaking belt. In Lucknow you'll almost never hear tu used, but the frequency is much higher in Delhi (maybe in Mumbai too). In Lucknow, tu is understood to be a bit rude.


 
I said 'cheap' because that was the first word that came to my mind when I thought of the scenario. The thought of written communication using the forms of 'Tu' is repulsive.

About your assertions about the regional use of 'Tu':

The word 'Tu' is used in _informal_ and _familiar _situations. However, it's use it still quite derogatory if addressed to the wrong people. To me, it involves inherent disrispect for the listener. We never use _Tu _with strangers, even if they are younger than us.
_Tum _is much more safer, and general.

In fact, _Tum_ and _Aap _are as such sufficient for all social scenarios.

Delhi does see a lot of _Tu_ usage, agreed, possibly because of Bhojpuri and Buhari influence. Lucknow is highly influenced by Urdu, which is such a soft spoken language with so much respect and _Adab_ that the mere thought of something as base as _Tu _would be quite repugnant.

The usage in Mumbai has a much deeper reason. Marathi, the language of Maharashtra also has three forms of address._ Tu, Tumhi and AapaN. _The problem is that _Tu _of Marathi corresponds to _Tum_ of Hindi. Also, _Tu_ is used with even older people as long as they are familiar. That is almost never heard in Hindi. I won't expect a child in school to address his senior as _Tum/Tu _unless they are very very close (or some other scenarios).

So, due to this false cognate (The two _Tu _words), Marathi speakers tend to use Tu much much more frequently because _Tu_ is the de-facto word for informal conversation. It is a constant source of annoyance for me because, though my mother tongue is Marathi, I was brought up in a Hindi speaking area, and I find it quite insulting to be addressed by _Tu_ by a person younger than me. It is an absolute turn-off.

To non-native speakers who are learning Hindi:
You can very conveniently forget _Tu. _I can assure you you are not missing anything. Infact, you are better off without it because the scenarios where the usage of this form is acceptable are quite difficult to judge for non-natives.


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## panjabigator

I absolutely agree with you.  <tu> should not be used with strangers and you should use it cautiously with friends too.  Some might get upset.  

But I don't think it should be ignored.  Learn to recognize it and be comfortable with it if you hear it, but think twice before using it.  In Panjabi, there are just too forms of address:  <tuu.n> and <tusii.n>.  <tuu.n> is informal and <tusii.n> is formal.  Since there is no middle ground, <tusii.n> is preferred but <tuu.n> is still there for informal relationships.  Some teachers "tu-ed" me in Panjab, and that was alright by me, but absolutely unspeakable in Lucknow.


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## huhmzah

As an Urdu speaker too -- using "Tu" will almost certainly raise eyebrows. The only place where "Tu" is commonly used is in writing -- in particular in poetry and/or religious references to God where it is seen as a pronoun indicating intimacy from the Persian tradition ("to" تو vs. شما "shoma"). 

BUT in spoken language it will be seen as either vulgar, or impolite and I have probably never ever used it in real-life with anyone, unless I'm joking.

In Pakistan "tum" is usually used for people of equal age, colleagues, companions and siblings. NEVER for anyone older than you.

"Aap" is commonly used both when addressing someone significantly younger or significantly older than yourself. "Aap" is also fairly common between spouses. I say "aap" to my parents, and they to each other, but "tum" to my brother. They in turn, like all the other adults in the family, use "aap" when speaking to their children or nephews and nieces. If you speak with anyone in public whom you do not know, like a store-keeper, electrician, customer-service people you almost always will use "aap" unless you know them very well.

Also usually when non-related guys and girls speak with each other, even if they are of equal age, they usually use "aap" unless very close friends.

In general, it is always a better policy to use "aap".

I'm from a punjabi family and as Panjabigator has already mentioned -- in Pakistan too in Punjabi "Tuu.n" is the equivalent of "Tum", and "tusii.n" of "aap".


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## panjabigator

So would you "tuu.n" your brother as well?  Are you Panjabi speaking at home?


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## huhmzah

Nope :-/ My family's a mix of Punjabis and Kashmiris and ironically only the pure Kashmiris speak Punjabi at home -- the mutts (like me and my parents) all speak Urdu at home.


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## Illuminatus

The entire confusion arises because the word _Tu_ or very close sounding variants exist in most North Indian languages. But, their function varies greatly based on the language. (Refer to my previous post about Marathi tu). _Tu_ in Hindi is much more disrespectful than other languages.

For example, I will certainly not be interested in continuing a conversation with a person who addresses me with _Tu_ in the first meeting (even if he is of the same age as me)


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## BP.

As Antariksh said the problem is that different language treat <tu> differently. I'll quote a confusion I've had because of this my whole life shortly:

Personally, my whole life I've never used tu (when speaking Urdu) to anyone ever. But some friends (Panjabis and Pukhtuns) said they can't imagine calling their mothers the <aap>-equivalents of their language. I can't imagine otherwise! 


Reading these posts I realized they weren't really using equivalents of <tu> but of <tum> (tu(tuN?) and ta respectively). I can't imagine myself using <tum> either with mum!

I didn't know that Urdu-speakers used <tu> in Dilli(Dehli), and *frequenlty* at that. And if I hadn't read Antariksh's post, I would've continued thinking <tu> has become common in Hindi. Afteral, my only introduction to vernacular Hindi is the handful of Bwood movies I've seen, cringing every time someone said <tu> or <tum *tumharay* office maiN ho?> or <k-has>,<k-hushi>. Having Indian interns last summer didn't help either, they were all speaking Bwood Hindi. Even the kid from Kanpur.

The problem with us Lucknowites is that we're told anecdotes like this at a young age: <hamaaray zamaanay maiN To ghoRay-baan bhi apnay ghoRay ko aap sey mukhaatib kiya kartay thhay>!


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## Illuminatus

_Tu _is common amongst friends (young). In fact, in Mumbai, where I am staying right now, _Tu_ is the only form of address amongst people of same age/seniority level.

I used to stay in Rajasthan earlier, where the usage of _Tu _is relatively less. It was relatively unpleasant for me to be addressed by _Tu_ by people who were talking to me for the first time. But, I have somehow managed to de-sensitize myself.

BP, please take my comments to refer to Hindi speakers, and not Urdu speakers. I think Urdu speakers would rarely use Tu.

_Tu_ is the de-facto address for Mothers in Bollywood movies and is also used for addressing _God_. In some families, mothers are addressed with _Tu_. Fathers are almost always addressed with _Aap. _I can remember only one family (Gujarati) where the kids address their parents with _Tum_ (which was quite shocking for me when I heard it for the first time)


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## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> <hamaaray zamaanay maiN To ghoRay-baan bhi apnay ghoRay ko aap sey mukhaatib kiya kartay thhay>!


I've heard plenty of Lakhnavi vignettes that deplore the decay of Lucknow today.  This one is one of my favorites.


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## panjabigator

Illuminatus said:


> _Tu_ is the de-facto address for Mothers in Bollywood movies and is also used for addressing _God_. In some families, mothers are addressed with _Tu_. Fathers are almost always addressed with _Aap. _I can remember only one family (Gujarati) where the kids address their parents with _Tum_ (which was quite shocking for me when I heard it for the first time)



I've always wondered about the "tu-ing" (or should I use the Spanish _tuteo_ here) of mothers in Bollywood.  It seemed odd considering that most people I know would get a firm <thhappaR> if they stepped down from <aap>...


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## Illuminatus

Interestingly, even in Marathi, where *Tu *is almost equal to (rather, more respectful than) *Tum*, mothers are addressed by *Tu* and fathers are almost always (I haven't yet found an exception) addressed with *Tumhi* which is the higher form.


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## BP.

You're right in calling God <tu>. I intentionally skipped on that one, fearing of adding another complexity to the issue. The reason given is that God is so close and so dear to you that normal addressing manner don't apply.


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## panjabigator

Illuminatus said:


> Interestingly, even in Marathi, where *Tu *is almost equal to (rather, more respectful than) *Tum*, mothers are addressed by *Tu* and fathers are almost always (I haven't yet found an exception) addressed with *Tumhi* which is the higher form.



<tuu.n> in Panjabi is like the Hindi <tum>, but I don't know anyone who uses it with their mom.  <tusii.n> is the equivalent of the Hindi <aap>.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> You're right in calling God <tu>. I intentionally skipped on that one, fearing of adding another complexity to the issue. The reason given is that God is so close and so dear to you that normal addressing manner don't apply.


 
Bhai Saheb,

As one Luckhnawi Urduphone to another we'd rather jump in the well than address each other with <tu>!! Unless an insult is intended. Apparently, we even don't seem to talk to our kids like that. 

But coming to the point of informailty with God, something similar came to mind and it is this.

The <tu> or <tum> (and their derivatives <tera / teri and tumhaaraa / tumhaari etc.) in Urdu often occur even when referring to beings other than God. 

When individually addressing revered personalities, such as our Prophet (also other prophets), and other members of the <ahl-e-kisa> - <panj(a)tan -e- paak> in the Indo-Pak subcontinent- you get to hear the informal forms a lot. These forms, however are normally employed when the person’s <laqab / kunneeyyat> (title / epithet ) is used or when using their name with the vocatives <yaa> or <ay> ( = O’ ) rather than the name alone. Very common in many forms of devotional poetry. So you often hear in qawwalis (also applies to na’ats and manqabats): 

ay nabi tu hi aasraa hai mera ….

There is a well-known qawwali sung by the Saabri brothers which goes something like:

bhardo jholee meri yaa Muhaammad 
dar se tere nah jaooNga khaali 

tumhaare aastaane se zamaana kya nahiN paata 
koi maaNgne waalaa kabhi khaalee nahiN jaataa

etc., etc

(_Don’t recall the exact wordings but the above lines are close to the original_)

Similarly, for Ali (the cousin and later son-in-law of the Prophet) who Sufis regards as their <First Teacher>; he is also often addressed informally in devotional poems that are sung throughout the subcontinent. You might hear for instance, these lines:

ay moshkil koshaa ham par moshkil hai aaee
dekhaade to hum ko apni moshkil koshaaee


All informal addresses.


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## Illuminatus

So, can I say that _Tu_ never finds itself in Spoken Urdu?


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## panjabigator

Illuminatus said:


> So, can I say that _Tu_ never finds itself in Spoken Urdu?



Or that it's at least rare.

Would your grandparents or other _bizurg_ "tu" you?


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## Illuminatus

_*My* _grandparentswon't, but I know several families where Grandparents "tu" their grandchildren.

In fact, the practice is quite common in the Punjabi families I know.

In my family, Tum is used for younger people and Aap for elders. Of course, when we speak Marathi, we use _Tu_ and _Tumhi_.


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## BP.

Illuminatus said:


> So, can I say that _Tu_ never finds itself in Spoken Urdu?



If it didn't it wouldn't *be* there, would it? I've rarely heard it in standard practice but frequently among a particular group of people living in a particular locality. So it *is* used.

And of course sometimes people get angry too. So tu does have its purpose. 


A third level of addressing is something I haven't seen in any other language as yet.


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## Illuminatus

BelligerentPacifist said:


> A third level of addressing is something I haven't seen in any other language as yet.



Hmm, what about Hindi, Marathi, Bengali etc?


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## BP.

What about them, apart from Hindi? Do Marathi and Bengali have 3 darajaat-e-takhaatub? I don't know. You can tell us about Marathi. I have only one Bengali acquaintance here and I run into her very infrequently, so its better if you could ask one of yours.

I know about Sindhi, Panjaabi, French, Spanish, Persian and Mandarin Chinese having 2 addressing registers. Please augment this list and at the end we'd know if it is likely that Urdu and Hindi are the only languages cursed with this property.


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## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> 3 darajaat-e-takhaatub



Makarmii BG 

<mai.n ne apne lught me.n is lafz kii talaash kii hai magar kahii.n dikhaaii nahii de rahii hai.  mera xyaal hai ki "darjaat" darja kaa jama' hai, par "takhaatub" kaa matlab nahii mil rahaa hai>.  

I'm guessing <takhaatub> is related to <mukhaatib>, correct?  Just double checking.  Sorry to interrupt with blurbs on words...just want to be safe


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## Faylasoof

darajaat-e-takhaatub (تَخَاطُب درجات ِ) = levels / degrees of mutual address; takhaatub = (تَخَاطُب) is verbal noun of takhaataba = (تَخاطَبَ) – the 6th verbal form of the Arabic verb khataba (خَطَبَ), and means mutual address. While khaataba = (خاطَبَ) gives mukhaatib = (مُخاطِب) = (Addresser).  Other related words are: khateeb = (خَطيِب) = (Speaker, orator) and mukhaatab = (مُخاطَب) = (Addressee).  So, as you rightly guessed, takhaatub and mukhaatib are related - via the root khataba.   Hope this helps.


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## panjabigator

What about the word for calligraphy?  Isn't that related?

Very helpful!


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## Faylasoof

I assume you mean khattaati / khattaatee (خَطّاطی) ? This comes from another verb khatta  (خَطّ) = to draw a line, sketch, outline, and khattata (خَطّطَ). You also get from the first the Urdu word khat (خَط) = letter = chitthee with the plural khutoot (خُطوط).    Of course, as you know we also use two other words or rather compounds for calligraphy: khush khatee (خُوش خَطی) – hybrid Persian-Arabic- and khush naweesee (خُوش نَویسی) – purely Farsi. Consequently a calligrapher is a khattaat (خَطّاط) or khush nawees (خُوش نَویس) and his / her work is described as being khush khat (خُوش خَط).   [BTW, calligraphy is from Ancient Greek: kalos / kali = beautiful and  grapho = I write. The Farsi khush naweesee comes close to being a one-to-one translation.]    جنابِ محترم،  اب مجھے آرام كرنا ہے تو شب بخیر


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## panjabigator

Araam kijie aur madad karne ke liye bahut bahut shukriya.


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## Illuminatus

Marathi has: (all Ts are soft)
_Too -  _Lowest. Informal. Used with friends, close family (especially female members), and people of the same generation.
_Tumhi - _Formal. Normally used with male members of the family, strangers, and is the equivalent of _aap_ or _vous_.
_AapaN (N is retroflex) - _Ultra formal. Normally not used in everyday language. Will be heard when formally welcoming someone, or talking to somebody who's of a high social cadre or who is very venerable.

Bengali has _tui, tumi _and _aapni_, similar in function to _Tu, Tum, Aap_


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## panjabigator

I believe Oriya also has this three tiered level of formality too.  Gujarati has two - <tu> and <tame>.


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## BP.

Thanks Antarriksh. So 3 levels of addressing seem quiet a common trait in south asian languages.


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