# Swedish: det Judiska land



## TrampGuy

So there's this song called Den Bortsålda by Garmarna, where this "term" appears quite often.
 I'll give an example in context : "Du må nu komma till det Judiska land till att vandra"

I'm really interested as to what this "term" might mean? not literally, but maybe culturally or historically. 
Not sure, really, how to explain this, but I just don't get the "term" itself, if it is term? or maybe it is some sort metaphor?

Thanks.


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## timtfj

I'm honestly just guessing based on the similarity with German and what I know of Norwegian---which of course isn't Swedish---but the phrase _looks_ as though it would literally mean "the Jewish land". Which could mean "the promised land", maybe? But I'm guessing wildly here.


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## TrampGuy

timtfj said:


> I'm honestly just guessing based on the similarity with German and what I know of Norwegian---which of course isn't Swedish---but the phrase _looks_ as though it would literally mean "the Jewish land". Which could mean "the promised land", maybe? But I'm guessing wildly here.



Not probable, since the connotation, in context, is negative, whereas yours appears to be positive. The literal translation is : "you shall wander the land of the Jews".


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## Tjahzi

Actually, my interpretation matches that of timtfj. I can see no other reference that that is in fact referring to the land of the Jews, Israel that is.


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## TrampGuy

Ok, I probably didn't explain myself good enough. We all agree that the literal translation would be "land of the Jews" or "the Jewish land", but I'm not sure it actually refers to Israel, the so called "promised land". I think this "expression" has at least some metaphoric meaning if not an actual cultural/historical based one.
I'll try and give a fuller context so you guys can see what I'm talking about when saying it has a negative connotation : 

"<...>
Jag ser min broder komma i rosende lund

Å kära min broder du haver ej mer än guldfålarna två
Den ena kan du sälja och lösa mig igen
Jag *vill ej* komma till det Judiska land till att vandra" - definitely a bad place, but why? and is it in fact Israel? if so, why is Israel looked at as such an horrendous place to be in?


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## Tjahzi

Well, I did look up the song, read the lyrics and listened to the recordings in order to ensure they do in fact sing _det judiska land_ (which they indeed do). Yet, I'm afraid there is not an awful lot left to add to the matter. I understand your question, and it's very relevant, but I believe you are asking for something that there might not even be an answer for. Remember that these songs are "Old folk lore ballads" and they are full of archaisms, metaphors and very irregular grammar. In fact, most of it is incomprehensible to me on a pragmatic level. As such, my simple answer is that I have absolutely no idea what the reference is meant to say, despite having listened to the song and read the lyrics. It might even be the case that the band members haven't written the text themselves and as such not even they know what meaning the original author meant to convey. Or maybe they wanted the listeners to make up their own opinions. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that since the translations posted on their website (which you have obviously seen, since you have copied it) gives very few hints in the English translation. That said, it could just be a rather mediocre translations, overall, I wasn't very impressed by it, but then again, I don't understand the original, so what do I know really?

Sorry to be discouraging, but I'm afraid this question is beyond "tricky".


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## LilianaB

I am pretty sure it is the Promised Land. I saw it some other Swedish poetry, from the beginning of the 20th century.

The Holy Land is usually called, however, det heliga landet.


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## TrampGuy

Tjahzi said:


> Well, I did look up the song, read the lyrics and listened to the recordings in order to ensure they do in fact sing _det judiska land_ (which they indeed do). Yet, I'm afraid there is not an awful lot left to add to the matter. I understand your question, and it's very relevant, but I believe you are asking for something that there might not even be an answer for. Remember that these songs are "Old folk lore ballads" and they are full of archaisms, metaphors and very irregular grammar. In fact, most of it is incomprehensible to me on a pragmatic level. As such, my simple answer is that I have absolutely no idea what the reference is meant to say, despite having listened to the song and read the lyrics. It might even be the case that the band members haven't written the text themselves and as such not even they know what meaning the original author meant to convey. Or maybe they wanted the listeners to make up their own opinions. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that since the translations posted on their website (which you have obviously seen, since you have copied it) gives very few hints in the English translation. That said, it could just be a rather mediocre translations, overall, I wasn't very impressed by it, but then again, I don't understand the original, so what do I know really?
> 
> Sorry to be discouraging, but I'm afraid this question is beyond "tricky".



The reason I chose to ask in these forums is because I've seen several users here who are quite knowledgeable in the fields of culture and folklore. 
I'm definitely sure this question has an answer, but it might be that no one here knows it .

The translation, on their site, seems to me like a pretty good literal translation - can't you give them that at least? . It is a shame, however, they did not offer any further information about the text.


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## TrampGuy

LilianaB said:


> I am pretty sure it is the Promised Land. I saw it some other Swedish poetry, from the beginning of the 20th century.
> 
> The Holy Land is usually called, however, det heliga landet.



Again, for some reason I don't think it's that simple as the literal translation implies. Plus, why would one be deterred from going to *the "*Promised Land"?
And if it is not the Promised Land (what I suspect), then what is it?


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## LilianaB

It is definitely related to the Biblical theme of the Wandering Jew. It may just refer to Earthly existence.


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## JohanIII

They use rather convoluted figures of speech here.

It starts with the woman being sold (as the song's name implies).
Then immediately after follows "Du må nu komma till det Judiska land till att vandra".

I think it may be referring to the 40 year march through the desert, described in the bible.
I offer the translation _ökenvandring_, as in a miserable life.
As I said - convoluted.

Though I still wonder where sailors, and oars overboard fits in.


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## TrampGuy

JohanIII said:


> They use rather convoluted figures of speech here.
> 
> It starts with the woman being sold (as the song's name implies).
> Then immediately after follows "Du må nu komma till det Judiska land till att vandra".
> 
> I think it may be referring to the 40 year march through the desert, described in the bible.
> I offer the translation _ökenvandring_, as in a miserable life.
> As I said - convoluted.
> 
> Though I still wonder where sailors, and oars overboard fits in.



Sounds a bit vague still, yet I like your thinking - you're the only one who went with a more metaphoric approach - which is surely the way, as this translation is not simply literal.


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## Eskil

I guess this has to do with the Promised Land or Heaven as well

Just a question about the meaning of "vill" in the phrase "jag vill ej komma"
In Norwegian the phrase "jeg vil ikke komme" could have two meanings:
Either it could mean: "I do not wish to come to the land" 
or "vil" can be seen as future tense "I am not going to come to the land"

I am not a Swedish speaker, so I can't say if this is a parallel in that language
But if it is, the underlying meaning could be something like "I'd love to go to the Promised land, but it will not happen"
And even if there is no longer this ambiguity in modern Swedish, maybe "vill" had this meaning earlier - in parallel with Norwegian?


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## Tjahzi

Indeed,while the original meaning of 'will' in the Germanic languages was _wish, desire_, in some languages (most notably English) it has shifted to have the futural meaning as well. 

However, Swedish is not one of those languages. (Then again, this song is so weird that it's possible that the authors still intended it to be interpreted like that.)


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## TrampGuy

Eskil said:


> I guess this has to do with the Promised Land or Heaven as well
> 
> Just a question about the meaning of "vill" in the phrase "jag vill ej komma"
> In Norwegian the phrase "jeg vil ikke komme" could have two meanings:
> Either it could mean: "I do not wish to come to the land"
> or "vil" can be seen as future tense "I am not going to come to the land"
> 
> I am not a Swedish speaker, so I can't say if this is a parallel in that language
> But if it is, the underlying meaning could be something like "I'd love to go to the Promised land, but it will not happen"
> And even if there is no longer this ambiguity in modern Swedish, maybe "vill" had this meaning earlier - in parallel with Norwegian?



Very interesting idea! and now it could also fit the context. However, it still sounds like they talking about banishment somewhere to me.

<...>


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## Lars H

My guess is that Joahn III got the right explanation. The wandering in "Judiska Land" will come to the girl as a consequence of being sold. Hardships and suffering.

And then the song continues with ideas of if her brother (at first) and her fiancé (second) will be able to raise the money needed to release her. 
It is not about the promised land, but about awaiting 40 years of misery.

"Sartavalla ö" is probably one of the rather large island situated in front of the town of *Sortavala*, at the northern tip of lake Ladoga. Originally a Finnish town, founded during Swedish reign, since 1947 part of Russia.

I don't know where the song originates from, but considering the place name I wouldn't be surprised if the song has a Finnish original text as well.


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## timtfj

I haven't learnt Swedish, only Norwegian, but I've just realised that there's no definite ending on _Land_. In Norwegian, _det jødiske *landet*_ would I think be a concrete reference to a specific place, while _det jødiske *land*_ would be more abstract. If Swedish works the same way, that seems to me to point away from its meaning anything where specific places are important. So a state of wandering (as during the exodus) does seem to fit better than the idea of the Promised Land does.


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## Eskil

While "det jødiske landet" would be more correct gramatically, it is not uncommon in poetry to see the equivalent to "det jødiske land". The meaning would be the same in both. In fact, "the Promised Land" is often referred to as "det lovede land" even if "det lovede landet" would be more correct


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## Hannouschka

If the song is called "Den bortsålda" and starts with the woman being sold, which is then followed by "Du må nu komma till det Judiska land till att vandra" -- wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that whoever bought our main character will force her to walk the Jewish realm (whether literally or metaphorically speaking)? To me it seems clear that it's something negative, be that because of a reference to the 40 years of suffering mentioned above (metaphor) or for another reason (forced pilgrimage? simple "abduction"?)


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## TrampGuy

Hannouschka said:


> If the song is called "Den bortsålda" and starts with the woman being sold, which is then followed by "Du må nu komma till det Judiska land till att vandra" -- wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that whoever bought our main character will force her to walk the Jewish realm (whether literally or metaphorically speaking)? To me it seems clear that it's something negative, be that because of a reference to the 40 years of suffering mentioned above (metaphor) or for another reason (forced pilgrimage? simple "abduction"?)



I agree, it sounds negative because that's how it is in the context, but what is this "Jewish realm" and why is it a bad place, is not yet clear to me. 
At first I thought it had something to do with that Jews were looked down upon and hated throughout history, which might have made the word Jew, be itself, an indication of something negative. Then again, I'm not sure how were Jews perceived at the time, or even what time it is exactly that the song was written in. Maybe the writing of the song followed some incident, or perhaps the writer had something to do with picking this specific use.


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