# Swedish: ska ha dödats vs. har dödats



## kilton

A metro.se article starts out with:

"En av världens farligaste terroristledare ska ha dödats i Pakistan."

I don't understand why 'ska' is in there. Can someone explain? I would have written it as "...har dödats...". And in fact I found another article which does say it that way:

"En av världens mest efterspanade män har dödats i Pakistan."

Thanks!


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## Typiskt

kilton said:


> A metro.se article starts out with:
> 
> "En av världens farligaste terroristledare ska ha dödats i Pakistan."
> 
> I don't understand why 'ska' is in there. Can someone explain? I would have written it as "...har dödats...". And in fact I found another article which does say it that way:
> 
> "En av världens mest efterspanade män har dödats i Pakistan."
> 
> Thanks!



"Ska ha dödats" is like saying "allegedly killed". So it means that it's not confirmed that he is dead.

Har dödats on the other hand is "have been killed".

Hope that helps.


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## kilton

Thanks.


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## Tjahzi

Ahh, this is indeed one of compound verbs that Swedish uses to express the renarrative mood! That is, the combination _ska ha *supine verb* _expresses that the speaker is retelling information that he/she has not been able to verify.


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## kilton

Thanks Tjahzi. Are there other such compound verbs that you can list?


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## Dexter_prog

Tjahzi said:


> Ahh, this is indeed one of compound verbs that Swedish uses to express the renarrative mood! That is, the combination _ska ha *supine verb* _expresses that the speaker is retelling information that he/she has not been able to verify.


wow, that's a weird way of saying that, haha. Wouldn't "skulle ha" sound more natural? At first I though it meant "will get killed" (as in executed like the USA did with Sadam Hussain). Maybe I am too used to thinking in English. Thanks for explaining that.


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## AutumnOwl

Dexter_prog said:


> Wouldn't "skulle ha" sound more natural? At first I though it meant "will get killed" (as in executed like the USA did with Sadam Hussain). Maybe I am too used to thinking in English. Thanks for explaining that.


If it had said "skulle ha dödats" I would have understood it as that they had tried to kill him but it was a miss, in English "should have been killed".


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## Tjahzi

Sorry kilton, I'm under the impression that this field is, both by me and by linguists in general, quite poorly investigated. As such, I'm afraid I don't have any examples in mind, but I'll come back would they pop up. 

However, Swedish is quite innovative when it comes to create compound verbs, here's a few that pops up:
_
Kan ha dödats - _might have been killed.
_Kan komma att dödas - _might be killed (in the future).
_Kan kunna dödas - _might be possible to kill.
_Skulle ha dödats - _should have been killed.
_Skulle kunna dödas - _could be killed (in the future or now).
_Ska kunna komma att dödas - _will possibly be possible to kill.

(Do note that all of these are not really standard, just combinations that I put together.)


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## kilton

Thanks Tjahzi.


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## fsm*

Tjahzi said:


> Ahh, this is indeed one of the compound verbs that Swedish uses to express the renarrative mood! That is, the combination _ska ha *supine verb* _expresses that the speaker is retelling information that he/she has not been able to verify.



If I understand you correctly, Tjahzi, this form is used for an action which is alleged _to have happened_ in the past. Is there also a way to tell about something which is alleged _to be happening_ right now?

For example, could one say:
_Hon ska bo i Malmö_ to mean _She is apparently living in Malmö_ ?


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## Tjahzi

Yes. Though, I'd say _Hon ska bo i Malmö_ translates to _She lives in Malmö [according to someone/thing]_ (as opposed to_ She is apparently living in Malmö _which I interpret as a verified information).

In short _ska+verb_ means that _verb_, which can be both present or supine, is unverified information (not untrustworthy, just not _confirmed_ (yet)).


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## fsm*

I wouldn't say that _She is apparently living in Malmö_ sounds like verified information in English, at least not to my ears. As with _ska_ + verb, it has the connotation that I've heard or seen this information somewhere, or something else has caused me to deduce this information, but so far it remains unconfirmed. 

I chose _apparently_ in this case because of the nature of the sentence, involving casual conjecture about where a person might be living, whereas the word _allegedly_ sounds more legal or journalistic. But both words have in common the fact that nothing has yet been confirmed. And so, I assume that both could be translated by _ska_ + verb. Anyway, thank you Tjahzi for your excellent explanations.


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## Tjahzi

Fair enough. (However, if we were to rephrase it as _Apparently, she is living in Malmö_, would it still have this sense of not being verified?)

Adding adverbs can of course take this to another level, but if we were just to apply _tydligen_, corresponding to _apparently_, the difference between _Hon bor tydligen i Malmö _and _Hon ska tydligen bo i Malmö _is just that the latter is clearly not verified (and hence I might be interpreting the former as confirming, although it's less so then the latter is disconfirming).


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## e2efour

Some good examples of this Swedish construction (which does not exist in English) can be found be googling "hon ska ha stulit", where "allegedly" fits well.
But I would like to see some examples of its use with the present tense. _Hon ska bo i Malmö_ could mean "she appears to living in Malmö" if you stress _ska_. But how could you distinguish this from "she intends to live" or "she will be living" etc? I find it difficult to think of a context.

A new drug has been discovered which cures xxxxx but causes severe complications. Could one say something like _Läkemedlet ska [kunna] orsaka svåra komplikationer? _It doesn't sound natural to me, but, of course, I am not a native speaker. (The English would be something like "the drug appears to cause severe complications".)


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## Tjahzi

Indeed, it hasn't been mentioned, but this construction can exist thanks  to the fact that Swedish has two, slightly different, verbs to express  future, _komma_ and _sk(ol)a, _and that the distinction between _Hon ska bo i Malmö _and _Hon kommer (att) bo i Malmö_ is huge and clear. 
I'm not sure that I agree that stressing _ska_ makes the phrase _Hon *ska *bo i Malmö_ mean _She appears to be living in Malmö_. Rather, it gives me the impression of that it means that the phrase is an imperative and the verb is present-future, as in _I'm ordering her to live in Malmö (from now onwards), _or possibly _She WILL live in Malmö (there is no way you can change her mind). _
A normal stress pattern could either have the meaning of _She will live in Malmö (she had decided that she will be living in Malmö) _or the already mentioned_ According to [some source], she is living in Malmö_.
Obviously, the most natural and neutral way to express that _She will be living in Malmö (from now onwards/at an unspecified point in the future) _is to say _Hon kommer (att) bo i Malmö_.

Good example there, e2efour. I was just about to start listing possible constructions, but I think we can just conclude that Swedish can present a few more alternatives than English. What exactly would you like to express? _
The drug appears to cause severe complications _could be translated as _Läkemedlet tycks/verkar orsaka biverkningar _(the latter more colloquial and hence a bit odd in this context), but then I've used specific verbs to express _seem_, and no regard is given to where the information comes from, how trustworthy it might be or the speakers relationship to it. Tense is present-future. So, it's a matter of what exactly you want to say.

(Out of curiosity, how good would you consider your Swedish to be?)


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## e2efour

Hi Tjahzi. What I am curious to know is how common it is to use _ska_ in the sense of anses, påstås, lär, torde referring to the present. For example, we might say _Christine Lagarde ska vara mycket skicklig_ (=is said to be highly competent).
Do you think it natural to say _hon ska bo i Malmö_ in the sense of _she is said to live there? _(leaving aside stress and intonation!).
The example I gave of the drug was not a question about how to translate to Swedish, but whether and in what context one could say _läkemedlet ska leda till komplikationer _(in the sense of "apparently leads to complications" or "is rumoured to" or literally "is said to"), not _biverkningar_, by the way, which is quite another matter. I feel that _lär_ is more suitable than _ska_ here.

Another example: someone is found who has a power equal to that of King Midas. If we want to use this _ska_ construction ("allting han vidrör ska omvandlas till guld"), it seems to me that this is more naturally interpreted as a statement of fact (when we could also omit _ska_). But if we substitute _lär_ for _ska_, perhaps it sounds more like "apparently turns to gold". Of course, we can use verbs like verka/tyckas/förefalla, but these verbs also exist in English, unlike _ska _in the sense we are discussing.

As to my Swedish, perhaps I can say that any problems I have concern the spoken language.


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## Typiskt

e2efour said:


> Hi Tjahzi. What I am curious to know is how common it is to use _ska_ in the sense of anses, påstås, lär, torde referring to the present. For example, we might say _Christine Lagarde ska vara mycket skicklig_ (=is said to be highly competent).
> Do you think it natural to say _hon ska bo i Malmö_ in the sense of _she is said to live there? _(leaving aside stress and intonation!).
> The example I gave of the drug was not a question about how to translate to Swedish, but whether and in what context one could say _läkemedlet ska leda till komplikationer _(in the sense of "apparently leads to complications" or "is rumoured to" or literally "is said to"), not _biverkningar_, by the way, which is quite another matter. I feel that _lär_ is more suitable than _ska_ here.
> 
> Another example: someone is found who has a power equal to that of King Midas. If we want to use this _ska_ construction ("allting han vidrör ska omvandlas till guld"), it seems to me that this is more naturally interpreted as a statement of fact (when we could also omit _ska_). But if we substitute _lär_ for _ska_, perhaps it sounds more like "apparently turns to gold". Of course, we can use verbs like verka/tyckas/förefalla, but these verbs also exist in English, unlike _ska _in the sense we are discussing.
> 
> As to my Swedish, perhaps I can say that any problems I have concern the spoken language.



It's not uncommon to use "ska" in that sense"

I would not say_ läkemedlet ska leda till komplikationer_ though. Some might interpret that as "The medicine is supposed to lead to complications." It depends on the context, but i think "lär" would be fine. I would probably say _ läkemedlet kan leda till komplikationer_ though. (could) or _ läkemedlet kommer antagligen leda till komplikationer_ though. (will probably).

Your other example: If you use "ska" there, it would sounds more like a exhortation or statement. I would probably use "allting han vidrör ska tydligen omvandlas till guld" or "allting han vidrör omvandlas tydligen till guld"


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## kilton

Tjahzi said:


> (However, if we were to rephrase it as _Apparently, she is living in Malmö_, would it still have this sense of not being verified?)



Yes, oddly. If it were verified I'd expect someone to just say "She is living in Malmö". 

I think this a good definiton of _apparently_: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=apparently&hl=en

Note the 2nd definition of _apparent _here: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=apparent&hl=en


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## Tjahzi

e2efour said:


> Hi Tjahzi. What I am curious to know is how common it is to use _ska_ in the sense of anses, påstås, lär, torde referring to the present. For example, we might say _Christine Lagarde ska vara mycket skicklig_ (=is said to be highly competent).
> Do you think it natural to say _hon ska bo i Malmö_ in the sense of _she is said to live there? _(leaving aside stress and intonation!).


I see. Well, not _that_ common. After all, this is a construction normally only preferred in context when these specific requirements are met, since there are quite a few ways to say it. Personally, I'm under the impression that mainly news organs (having the ambition to be neutral) really use this frequently and that it's rather unusual in most informal contexts. There, constructions such as _x sa att hon bor i Malmö, jag har hört/hörde att hon bor/bodde i Malmö, hon verkar bo i Malmö _and so on are more natural.


e2efour said:


> The example I gave of the drug was not a question about how to translate to Swedish, but whether and in what context one could say _läkemedlet ska leda till komplikationer _(in the sense of "apparently leads to complications" or "is rumoured to" or literally "is said to"), not _biverkningar_, by the way, which is quite another matter. I feel that _lär_ is more suitable than _ska_ here.


_Ska _is indeed very problematic, since when used in this context, it's not obvious that it's not used in the imperative, intentional or futural sense, as pointed out by _Typiskt_. As such, I can imagine this construction being used about positive outcomes, _läkemedlet ska bota x_, but that _kan_ is used for risks, _läkemedlet kan (komma att) orsaka [problem]_. (I'm under the impression that _komplikationer _is something that can occur from a treatment, such as surgery, rather than from using a drug and hence substituted it with _biverkningar_ (which is indeed something else), but I could be wrong on this one.)
So, to answer your question, it's not a very good way to say it, or at least, there are better ways. As for _lär_, I'd say it's a bit too colloquial actually. Personally, I'd probably go with my above suggestion (_kan_), or maybe _läkemedlet riskerar att, enligt x kan läkemedlet orsaka, man tror/befarar/misstänker att läkemedlet kan leda till/orsaka, _


e2efour said:


> Another example: someone is found who has a power equal to that of King Midas. If we want to use this _ska_ construction ("allting han vidrör ska omvandlas till guld"), it seems to me that this is more naturally interpreted as a statement of fact (when we could also omit _ska_). But if we substitute _lär_ for _ska_, perhaps it sounds more like "apparently turns to gold". Of course, we can use verbs like verka/tyckas/förefalla, but these verbs also exist in English, unlike _ska _in the sense we are discussing.


Hm, no. To me, _allting han vidrör ska omvandlas till guld_ also has the meaning of _according to rumours/it seems/they say everything he tounches is turned to gold_. Omitting _ska_, however, does indeed give the impression of a verified fact. 
Using _lär_ instead gives me the impression of that it's either _likely_ or the very same meaning, that is, _is said to (etc.)_. If the latter, I'd probably ad a _tydligen _after _Allt han __vid __rör lär tydligen omvandlas till guld_.
(That said, it _could_ be the case that other natives disagree with me, but this is certainly how _I_ view it.) 


e2efour said:


> As to my Swedish, perhaps I can say that any problems I have concern the spoken language.


Hehe, sounds like the typical situation for the native English Swedish learner.


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## Tjahzi

Hm, kilton, what would you say about the following example?



			
				Some dude said:
			
		

> I think that colloquially there's an extended meaning of "apparently"  that's not so much "it appears that" as "it turns out that".  For ex., I  go to a supermarket at 7 PM on a Sunday and find it closed and dark  (altho it was clearly open at 4). I might come back home and say,  "Apparently they close early on Sunday". There really is no doubt that  this is true.


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## kilton

Hey Tjahzi. Yep, that's yet another flavor of _apparently_. I would define it as "I just found out that". In the example you quoted, I would start the sentence with _apparently_ right after I got home -- but not, for example, a week later when telling someone else. (Unless, perhaps, I was trying to tell the story in an amusing way.)


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## Tjahzi

Well, I interpreted _Apparently, she is living in Malmö _as said just after receiving the information.


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## kilton

Yeah, it's all about context right?


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## Tjahzi

Well, at least more so in English than in Swedish, I'd say, both in general, and in these cases.


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