# попадать в вилку



## Interprete

Hello,

Can вилка  have the meaning of 'dilemma'? This is what I would guess here, but I'm not sure. It is not a meaning I find in the Wordreference dictionary, nor on Wiktionary... 
Но есть одна проблема: если социальное порождает сознание, то социальное должно было возникнуть тогда, когда люди были еще в бессознательном состоянии. Как это возможно? Если же социальное порождается сознанием, то тогда нельзя объяснить возникновение сознания социальным. И Лев Семенович и его последователи попадают здесь в эту противоречивую вилку.

Thanks!


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## Awwal12

Basically, yes. Cf. the English meaning of "fork" as "an intersection in a road or path where one road is split into two", also present in Russian.


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## Interprete

Thank you Awwal12. Should this meaning be added to the Wordreference definition, in your opinion?


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## Awwal12

Well, as that isn't some sort of occasionalism, I suppose it should.


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## Enquiring Mind

Yes, I like "dilemma". Here's another example in context, where вилкa is paraphrased as неудобное положение:


> Визит президента России Владимира Путина в Индию _поставил США в __неудобное положение_. После того, как Дели демонстративно пошёл на сближение с Москвой, Вашингтон, по сути, угодил в собственную санкционную ловушку. (...)
> По словам Марии Бутиной, теперь США _попали в "вилку"_: либо наказать Индию санкциями и потерять над ней влияние, либо в исключительном порядке не вводить санкции и потерять лицо. (tsargrad.tv)


_The visit has put the US in a dilemma_ .....  _the US has got itself into a dilemma._


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## Maroseika

Enquiring Mind said:


> Yes, I like "dilemma". Here's another example in context, where вилкa is paraphrased as неудобное положение:
> 
> _The visit has put the US in a dilemma_ .....  _the US has got itself into a dilemma._


This example seems to be of the different kind - two undesirable options, and it may originate just from the chess terminology (вилка - a threat to two figures at once). While in the first example it's rather about развилка - two possible ways of development the mankind.


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## pimlicodude

Maybe противоречивая вилка can, as a phrasal unit, be translated in some contexts simply by the single word "conundrum"?


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## Maroseika

Conundrum seems to be just a mistery or puzzle, while вилка is always about TWO options/variants/ways.
Actually, "противоречивая вилка" seems very strange expression itself. The first word looks unnecessary and confusing.


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## nizzebro

Вилка is not exactly dilemma - with dilemma, one option can turn out better, but вилка means two ways are destined, and, either way has_ basically the same value._


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## lena55313

"Fork" is a word from the chess glossary. It means a simultaneous attack by a single piece on two (or more) of the opponent's pieces (or other direct target, such as a mate threat). 
I believe that the authour of the text meant the case in which the person had made something that involved him into the situation that was not good for him anyway: if he chose A, he would lose B and vice-versa.


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## pimlicodude

lena55313 said:


> "Fork" is a word from the chess glossary. It means a simultaneous attack by a single piece on two (or more) of the opponent's pieces (or other direct target, such as a mate threat).
> I believe that the authour of the text meant the case in which the person had made something that involved him into the situation that was not good for him anyway: if he chose A, he would lose B and vice-versa.


That sounds a bit like a "catch-22".


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## Enquiring Mind

Not sure I can agree that _dilemma_ (by its very etymology) is unsuitable, even in the original post:


> A Fork in the Road: Responsible Approaches to Ethical Dilemmas (eatrightstore.org)


There's nothing in _dilemma_ that tells us whether one outcome may be better than the other. But still, it's a forum.


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## Vovan

Maroseika said:


> Conundrum seems to be just a mistery or puzzle, while вилка is always about TWO options/variants/ways.


_Conundrum _can mean just that in current English. Moreover, it's that very meaning that keeps the word alive in more or less daily communications in English among native speakers of the language (while the _mystery _meaning remains fairly bookish).


> *conundrum *_n_
> *1. *a riddle, esp one whose answer makes a play on words
> *2. *a puzzling question or problem; *a dilemma*:
> _the conundrum, thus far unanswered, of achieving full employment without inflation_​(Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition.)


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## nizzebro

Enquiring Mind said:


> Not sure I can agree that dilemma is unsuitable, even in the original post:


Well, it is the same thing essentially, but the difference is in the perspective.
Дилемма is the matter of choice, where you can see the equality and, in some context, you can reject both the two with no negative effects.
Вилка is a catch (and Pimlicodude was right basically about 'catch') - if you  take the path which is the 'leg' (handle?) of the fork - then, no way back there.
And, I'd say that дилемма is still only about the way the two options look initially, while вилка is a guarantee of a specific outcome.

As already noted by Awwal, вилка is a colloquial term; and that противоречивая is just the writer's choice - not so felicitous, I think; the whole construction is more descriptive than rational.


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## Vovan

Interprete said:


> Как это возможно? Если же социальное порождается сознанием, то тогда нельзя объяснить возникновение сознания социальным. И Лев Семенович и его последователи попадают здесь в эту противоречивую вилку.


As already been said, "противоречивая вилка" is not what would ever occur to the mind of an average native speaker. There's just one single occurrence of that pleonastic phrase - in the nominative case - in Google Search.
_(Click to expand.)_​


​In general, the choice of the metaphor "вилка" in the original sentence looks baseless. For that matter, more relevant to the discourse would be "_The chicken or the egg_ causality dilemma". Normally, university professors just say "Возникает противоречие" or something  close to that in similar instances.


Anyhow, here's a close sense of the word in Efremova's Dictionary of Russian:


> *ви́лка *_ж._ 5) _перен. разг. _Расхождение, несоответствие между чем-л.
> https://classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Efremova-term-9037.htm


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> is just the writer's choice


That was again from a lecture (i.e. from spontaneous speech), by the way.


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## Maroseika

Vovan said:


> *...a dilemma*:
> _the conundrum, thus far unanswered, of achieving full employment without inflation_


This is very strange example of the dilemma. At least I would never call it as such.
It would be a dilemma, for example, if we choose between full employment and zero inflation.


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## Vovan

Maroseika said:


> This is very strange example of the dilemma. At least I would never call it as such.


Me either. It seems that the phrase was meant to illustrate "a puzzling question or problem" (I copied the dictionary entry in full).
As for "conundrum" for "dilemma", I have often heard it in US movies.

Here's a much clearer explanation from the website "Literary Terms":


> Imagine you got into only two colleges – one was a better school with better faculty, but the other has a reputation for being more fun, and has a more socially active student body. Which school should you pick? <...> This is a practical conundrum that thousands of students face, in different forms, every year. (Read more...)


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## pimlicodude

Vovan said:


> Me either. It seems that the phrase was meant to illustrate "a puzzling question or problem" (I copied the dictionary entry in full).
> As for "conundrum" for "dilemma", I have often heard it in US movies.
> 
> Here's a much clearer explanation from the website "Literary Terms":



A conundrum often has two choices, as you say, the conundrum of how to achieve full employment without spurring inflation. But I think "conundrum" lays more stress on the fact that it is a brain-teaser - it is difficult to work out how to do one without occasioning the other result too. Dilemma lays more stress on the moral choice. There is a made-up word (unofficial word) for a dilemma with three options, namely "trilemma".

Edit: I just checked and "trilemma" is in the OED, so it is a recognised word.
Quadrilemma is also attested - but is not in the OED - a dilemma with four options.


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## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> Dilemma lays more stress on the moral choice.


I'd say that Russian counterpart has no special bias for morals; дилемма can arise  at some stage of planning or theorizing of any kind. It is just a fancy way to say that both options are bad as there are equally unacceptable factors behind them.
But my vision well may be subjective, or, the matter is be which contexts prevail around us.


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> дилемма is just a fancy way to say that both options are bad as there are equally unacceptable factors behind them.


To me, "bad" looks like an exaggeration: often, the two options are _not ideal_, and given the chance, a person might even gladly choose both of them (in some situations)!

Also, "дилемма" can be posed more abstractly/radically: as a choice between someone's wish and their modest current capabilities/resources, or between a wish and a necessity, etc.


​


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