# Papiamento



## avok

Hi everbody,

I just want to know if, you people, know anything on Papiamento, the language of Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao? 

I happened to listen to Papiamento via internet and I can truly say that it should be considered a separate romance language rather than a creole based on Portuguese. 

What would you think of that?    

To listen to some Papiamento, you can visit

http://www.telearuba.aw/

bye,


----------



## jfm

Papiamentu *is* a language of its own, at least it's usually considered to be one by linguists. Popular opinion (folk linguistics) may differ, of course.

To say that it is "a creole based on Portuguese" is a statement about its history, namely that the language had lot of input from Portuguese during its birth period. There are several similar creole languages around the world. Many of these have some sort of origin in European languages (esp. Portuguese, French, English), others find their origin in other languages (esp. Arabic, Swahili).

In linguistics at least, the term "creole" is used as a technical label for a certain type of languages. It does not mean "patois", "dialect", or similar. 

---
jfm


----------



## Vanda

An interesting fact about Papiamento is in its roots. According to history its lexicon is about 60% from Portuguese, 25% from Dutch ant the rest from some West African languages. And because of the islands vicinity to Spanish speaking countries, mainly Venezuela, it has a great Spanish influence in it too. 
Its origin is attributed to the Sephardic Jews who fled from Brazil with their slaves (those slaves were from Africa). Also some creole from Cabo Verde came to the islands with slaves brought by the Dutchs.
The language has some similarity to Ladino spoken by Portuguese and Spanish Jews communities.



> Many early residents of Curaçao were Sephardic Jews either from Portugal, Spain, or Portuguese Brazil. Therefore, it can be assumed that Ladino was brought to the island of Curaçao, where it gradually spread to other parts of the community.


Wikipedia

Some Portuguese and Papiamento words: 
Bem-vindo- Bon Bini
Bom dia - Bon dia
Como vai? - Con ta bai?
Muito bom - Hopi bon 
 Eu estou bem - Mi ta bon
Tenha um bom dia - Pasa un bon dia
Comida - Cuminda
Pão - Pan


----------



## Joannes

avok said:


> it should be considered a separate romance language rather than a creole based on Portuguese.


 
Papiamentu is generally considered to be a seperate language. A creole is not a 'dialect' or something, it's a real language, but it mainly evolved from (or rather towards) another one.

If you think Papiamentu should be _classified_ as a Romance language, next to Portuguese, Italian, etc., then I don't agree, because its development was different; it didn't evolve from Latin but from Portuguese (and some Spanish, let's say 'Iberian'). 

Classification of creoles is hard because then you would have to decide on which language had the greatest input, which is often impossible to tell. So they just get classified as 'creole - X based'. (The only exception I know is Afrikaans.)


----------



## Outsider

jfm said:


> In linguistics at least, the term "creole" is used as a technical label for a certain type of languages. It does not mean "patois", "dialect", or similar.


Some creoles are called _patois_, nevertheless.


----------



## Spectre scolaire

35 years ago Richard E. Wood, a scholar possessing great knowledge in creole languages, wrote an article based on some observations from 300 years ago. The following abstract of his article (which is produced by the Dutch review _Neophilologus_) gives an idea of what Papiamentu is.

1. Papiamentu demonstrates, over a period of 200 years, a stability and unity noteworthy not only among creole languages, but in absolute terms, fully justifying Lenz's epithet of “un idioma fijo”.

2. It shows, throughout this period, a significantly constant ratio of Castilian and Portuguese elements in basic vocabulary, phonology, morphology and syntax, insofar as distinct derivations from one or the other Iberian language may be identified.

3. The hypothesis of an earlier strongly Portuguese Papiamentu with subsequent radical Hispanization, especially in the phonology, is unproven.

4. The derivation of Papiamentu from a former pan-Caribbean Spanish-affiliated creole itself showing a Portuguese substratum is the only reasonable explanation of the presence in Papiamentu, from the time of the earliest records, of specifically Castilian integral elements alongside the Portuguese. In this light, then, we way understand and largely endorse the classic observation by the polyglot Schabel (1704) that the language of Curaçao is “broken Spanish”.

Apparently, the conclusion that “the language of Curaçao is _broken Spanish_” seems to be a contradiction to the above statement of “Papiamentu [being] _un idioma fijo_”. The point of the abstract is, however, to indicate that the origin of Papiamentu is not an easy question, and at the same time to underline that the status of it as a _separate language_ is beyond question.

Ladino, by the way, is basically Spanish. In fact, Sephardic Jews (cf. Hebrew [sfar], “Spain”) would never call their language anything else. They arrived in the Ottoman Empire in the late 15th century, settling primarily in Istanbul and Saloniki. 
 ​


----------



## avok

Hi Joannes,

thanks for your answer,

But...you say "





> If you think Papiamentu should be _classified_ as a Romance language, next to Portuguese, Italian, etc., then I don't agree, because its development was different; it didn't evolve from Latin but from Portuguese (and some Spanish, let's say 'Iberian').


 
If Papiamento derilved "directly" from Portuguese then it evolved from Latin too but "indirectly". i.e. If Latin is the father, then Portuguese is the daughter and Papiamento is the grand daughter, it is still "related to Latin." At least that's what I think  

And in fact Portuguese , itself, did not directly derive from Latin but derived from "Galaico-português" ( the common ancestor of both Portuguese and Galician which evolved from "latin") but this fact does not make Portugues less Latin than "Galaico-portugues."

Look at Afrikaans,( as you mentioned) derived from Dutch, still classified as Germanic, not a language based on Dutch but a separate Germanic language. I also think, that Afrikaans looks more Germanic than English which directly evolved from Proto-Germanic language !


----------



## Outsider

The thing is, Avok, that Papiamento didn't derive _just_ from Portuguese. A great deal of its vocabulary is from Portuguese, but in recent centuries it has actually been more influenced by Spanish, Dutch, and English. And then there is the influence of African languages, and of local Native American languages. More importantly, the grammar of Papiamento is very different from the grammar of a Romance language. It seems that its origins are still being hotly debated (and sometimes with nationalistic overtones), but Papiamento has clearly had an important contribution from either African or indigenous languages. So it's as much a European language as it is an African or American language. It's a mix.
Take a look at this page on creole languages. For linguists, this is a different concept from a dialect.


----------



## Joannes

avok said:


> If Papiamento derilved "directly" from Portuguese then it evolved from Latin too but "indirectly". i.e. If Latin is the father, then Portuguese is the daughter and Papiamento is the grand daughter, it is still "related to Latin." At least that's what I think


And I agree. 



avok said:


> And in fact Portuguese , itself, did not directly derive from Latin but derived from "Galaico-português" ( the common ancestor of both Portuguese and Galician which evolved from "latin") but this fact does not make Portugues less Latin than "Galaico-portugues."


True. But, the difference between Portuguese and Papiamentu is that the former is thought to have evolved with 'language internal changes' (not exclusively of course) and the former was proven to be higly influenced by other languages in its development (like Dutch, English, Arawakan, and African languages -- some of which very likely to have been rather creolized / pidginized variants already). That makes classification tough: Romance, Germanic, Arawakan, ...?

(And because I realize to have been rather repetitive of Outsider, one new element  : ) There are quite some features that creole languages seem to have in common, but need not be features of one of their 'parent languages'. So simple classification as a "creole" also makes some sense in terms of a classification according to structural similarity.



avok said:


> Look at Afrikaans,( as you mentioned) derived from Dutch, still classified as Germanic, not a language based on Dutch but a separate Germanic language. I also think, that Afrikaans looks more Germanic than English which directly evolved from Proto-Germanic language !


Well, I mentioned Afrikaans as an exception. To be honest, personally I have no clue as to why Afrikaans was not classified as "creole - Dutch based", but rather "Indo-European, Germanic, West, Low Saxon-Low Franconian, Low Franconian" (_Ethnologue_). Maybe out of practical considerations; because Afrikaans has 'its own' creoles, although I don't quite see why that would be good enough a reason. 

Anyone who can explain to me why Afrikaans was not classified as a creole, please do so -- although you will probably have to open a new thread for it.


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> More importantly, the grammar of Papiamento is very different from the grammar of a Romance language


 
Hi Outsider,

Hmmm, you are right but I am not sure if the grammar of Papiamento is very different from the grammar of other Romance languages 

Look, this is in Papiamento and it looks so Romance and familiar to me... ( more than romanian for instance )

Mas o ménos mei mion di persona a bishitá santana “Nueva Esperanza” di Lima, un di e santananan mas grandi di Peru, pa resa dilanti di graf di nan famia ku a fayesé, kompañá pa serbes, bailenan i muzik. 

“Dia di tur Santu”, selebrá ayera na Peru, a keda probechá pa habitantenan di Lima pa bishitá nan sernan kerí den e santana aki di 64 hèktar di ekstenshon, den distrito di Villa Maria del Triunfo, di e kapital.


----------



## Outsider

Well, you have me at a disadvantage. I do not speak a word of Papiamento (well, maybe one or two words ), so I can't argue for or against what you say. But this is what linguists usually say about creole languages...


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> Well, you have me at a disadvantage. I do not speak a word of Papiamento (well, maybe one or two words ), so I can't argue for or against what you say. But this is what linguists usually say about creole languages...


 
"Voce fala Portugues" !!!!  so, I am sure if you read some on line news paper or something in Papiamento, you shall get the essence of the subject, it is not that mixed  
anyway, I am interested in the language whether it is romance or not...


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> To listen to some Papiamento, you can visit
> 
> http://www.telearuba.aw/


I just wanted to say that I tried to listen, but apparently my computer does not have the right software.


----------



## Outsider

avok said:


> "Voce fala Portugues" !!!!  so, I am sure if you read some on line news paper or something in Papiamento, you shall get the essence of the subject, it is not that mixed


Let's see...



> Mas o ménos mei mion di persona a bishitá santana “Nueva Esperanza” di Lima, un di e santananan mas grandi di Peru, pa resa dilanti di graf di nan famia ku a fayesé, kompañá pa serbes, bailenan i muzik.
> 
> “Dia di tur Santu”, selebrá ayera na Peru, a keda probechá pa habitantenan di Lima pa bishitá nan sernan kerí den e santana aki di 64 hèktar di ekstenshon, den distrito di Villa Maria del Triunfo, di e kapital.


I can certainly recognize many words and phrases:

mas o ménos = mais ou menos
mei mion di persona = meio milhão de pessoas
a bishitá = visitou?
santana = ? (from context, I'm guessing "ship", _navio_)
un di e santananan mas grandi di Peru = um dos navios mais grandes de Peru
pa para? resa dilanti di diante de graf di nan famia família ku a fayesé = ?
kompañá pa serbes = acompanhar para serviço (?)
bailenan i muzik. = bailes e música

“Dia di tur Santu”, selebrá ayera na Peru = "Dia de todos os santos" celebrar(-ado) _ayer_ (Sp.) em Peru
a keda probechá pa habitantenan di Lima pa bishitá nan sernan kerí den e santana aki di 64 hèktar di ekstenshon = a _ aproveitar para habitantes de Lima para visitar _ navio com 64 hectares de extensão
den distrito di Villa Maria del Triunfo, di e kapital. = desde o distrito de Villa Maria del Triunfo até a capital (? - took a guess here)

It seems they're talking about a big ship from Peru that is visiting town, but I can't get much more than that.



avok said:


> anyway, I am interested in the language whether it is romance or not...


And that's what counts.


----------



## avok

Outsider said:


> I just wanted to say that I tried to listen, but apparently my computer does not have the right software.


 
hi outsider,

today I tried to listen to the channel, but it just does not work, it has got nothing to do with your software try another day  and you can visit you tube too

the text, wait.........in Portuguese:

Cerca de meio milão de pessoas visitaram o cemitério "Nova Esperança" em Lima, um dos maiores cemitérios do Peru, para rezar diante dos túmulos de seus familiares que faleceram, acompanhadas de cerveja, danças e música. 
Os habitantes de Lima aproveitaram o "Dia de Todos os Santos", celebrado ontem no Peru, para visitarem seus entes queridos no cemitério de 64 hectares de extensão, localizado no distrito de Villa Maria del Triunfo, na capital.


----------



## Outsider

It's a cemetry (_cemitério_), not a ship!  
I do recognize _serbes_ as _cerveja_ now, though.

P.S. I watched the video. It does sound familiar in some ways, though I don't understand much of what's being said (the bad recording in part of the track doesn't help).


----------



## Spectre scolaire

Joannes said:
			
		

> Well, I mentioned Afrikaans as an exception. To be honest, personally I have no clue as to why Afrikaans was not classified as "creole - Dutch based", but rather "Indo-European, Germanic, West, Low Saxon-Low Franconian, Low Franconian" (_Ethnologue_). Maybe out of practical considerations; because Afrikaans has 'its own' creoles, although I don't quite see why that would be good enough a reason.
> 
> Anyone who can explain to me why Afrikaans was not classified as a creole, please do so -- although you will probably have to open a new thread for it.


 I don’t think it would be necessary to open a new thread if only a discussion surrounding other creole languages (or purportedly constituted creole languages) is focused on a comparison with Papiamentu. It seems obvious that Papiamentu _is_ a creole language, but the emergence of it is problematic.

A comparative creole approach seems to impose itself.
 I hope the moderator agrees to this. ​


----------



## Flaminius

Moderation Note

Since the discussion on how Afrikaans emerged has deepened well enough, it has been split to a new thread.


----------

