# Pronunciation: 拎



## yuechu

大家好，

I have a question about the pronunciation of the word "拎". One of the dictionaries I use (Perapera dictionary) says that the pronunciation is "lin1" but in Taiwan, it is "ling1". This surprised me because even in Mainland China, I think that the people who distinguish "ing" from "in" are in the minority (am I right?). In Taiwan, do some people distinguish "ing" from "in" such as for this word "拎" ling1?

Thanks!


----------



## M Mira

For me, the difference between -in and -ing is almost orthographical, and I may occasionally mix them up. But 拎 is firmly -ing due to the phonological part 令 (ling4)


----------



## Skatinginbc

《唐韻》《集韻》《韻會》 郞丁切，音零。"ling".
Do the majority of people in China actually pronounce 拎 as lin???


----------



## fyl

拎 is lin1 in mainland, not only in dictionaries but also everyone will say lin1. ling is not acceptable.
It is not true that people who distinguish "ing" from "in" are in the minority. This depends on where people come from. In certain areas people don't distinguish. But in the north (except some parts in northwest, I guess), there is a huge difference. I will never mix them up. That is not acceptable.
As for why 拎 (it was ling in ancient Chinese) with 令 is pronounced lin1 now, there might be complicated stories in etymology. Maybe it comes from areas that do not distinguish -ing and -in. Another example is 弄. It was "long", but now it is "nong" though we distinguish n/l clearly in the north.


----------



## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> 令 is pronounced lin1 now


Really? Surprise!


----------



## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> Really? Surprise!


No no no. I mean 拎 is lin1 although it has a 令ling. Sorry for confusing.


----------



## stephenlearner

Never heard of ling1.


----------



## Messquito

fyl said:


> 拎 is lin1 in mainland, not only in dictionaries but also everyone will say lin1. ling is not acceptable.


So you guys pronounce 拎 like you do with 臨/林 (despite the tones)?


----------



## SuperXW

Well, as a Beijinger I pronounce it ling1...Now if I think about it, it seems somebody else pronounces lin1. According to our dictionary I may be "wrong".


----------



## brofeelgood

粤语也出现一样的现象. "拎"正确音节为ling1,但很多人都念lik1, e.g. 又食又拎 (lik1).


----------



## Ghabi

粵語ling1(老一輩人讀ning1)和lik1是同義詞,沒所謂哪一個"正確",跟北方話的lin1也未必有關係(事實上用法不一樣,但有點難解釋),不宜相提並論。


----------



## Skatinginbc

Can you name any word other than 拎 that is also pronounced lin1 in "Standard Mandarin"?


Messquito said:


> So you guys pronounce 拎 like you do with 臨/林 (despite the tones)?


Obviously, Mesquito could not find any word for _lin_1 and so he had to say "臨/林 (despite the tones)".  What does that tell us?  _Lin_1 is an "異類" (oddity) in the "Standard Mandarin" that we know of (i.e., Taiwan Mandarin for Messquito and me).
拎 is _lin_ (陰平) in some southern Mandarin dialects (e.g., 西南官话桂柳片). 令 reads _lin_ (去聲) in some southern Mandarin dialects (e.g., 西南官话桂柳片, 江淮官话洪巢片) as well as in some Xiang (e.g., 長沙) and Wu dialects (e.g., 崑山, 無錫, 溧陽, 蘇州老派) where 拎 also ends with /-n/ (e.g., 無錫 /_ʔlin_/ for 拎).


Ghabi said:


> 北方話的lin1


I'm not sure "北方話的lin1" is truly a 北方話.  It seems to be a loan from a southern dialect.


----------



## fyl

Messquito said:


> So you guys pronounce 拎 like you do with 臨/林 (despite the tones)?


I always pronounce so.
I'm surprised that SuperXW says ling1...



Skatinginbc said:


> Can you name any word other than 拎 that is also pronounced lin1 in "Standard Mandarin"?
> Obviously, Mesquito could not find any word for _lin_1 and so he had to say "臨/林 (despite the tones)".  What does that tell us?  _Lin_1 is an "異類" (oddity) in the "Standard Mandarin" that we know of (i.e., Taiwan Mandarin for Messquito and me).


You are right that 拎 is the only character pronounced lin1. But this kind of oddity isn't really odd. For example, 肮[骯]ang1, 甭beng2, 瘪[癟]bie3, 卒瓦cei4, 噌ceng1, 蹭ceng4, 欻chua1. (I only skimmed A-C in a dictionary very quickly, and I didn't include all characters I found.) Some of these may have characters with the same sound in a bigger dictionary, but those won't exist in the spoken language. There are also maybe well-known examples like 佛fo2, and 扽den4 in north dialects.


----------



## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> this kind of oddity isn't really odd. For example, 肮[骯]ang1, 甭beng2, 瘪[癟]bie3, 卒瓦cei4, 噌ceng1, 蹭ceng4, 欻chua1...佛fo2, and 扽den4.


Some of them are not "odd" (e.g., 甭 beng2 is a fusion of bu2 and yong4; 欻chua1 is onomatopoetic).  Some of those that are "odd" actually suggest borrowing.  Take 骯髒 for example.  It was originally 骯 kang3 (高亢) + 髒 zang3 (婞直).  The derogatory use of 骯髒 was attested during the Yuan and Ming dynasties in the works of such writers as 柯丹丘(1290—1365 浙江仙居人),  冯梦龙 (1574－1646 江苏苏州人），and 周茂兰 (明末清初, 江苏苏州人). 骯髒 ang1zang1, as well as 唵噆 an3can3 (高安道, ca. 1321, 生平不详), and 腌䐶/臢 a1za1 (金 董解元; 王实甫 ca. 1260－1336, 河北定兴人; 秦简夫, 元末, 大都人), seems to be a transliteration.


----------



## brofeelgood

Don't forget 给. It's not just the one and only gei3, but also the one and only gei(1/2/3/4).


----------



## Skatinginbc

Good example, Bro, but 给 gei3 (like 佛 fo2) is a 破音字 read differently on purpose to signal specific meanings or grammatical functions.  I think 拎 lin1 is more like 扽 den4: Both are marked with 〈方〉 in 汉典, meaning they are dialectal features.  
《玉篇》：扽，引也，撼也。古通作頓。 
元．關漢卿《南呂·一枝花·不伏老》鋤不斷、斫不下、解不開、頓不脫. 
無名氏《隔江斗智》摔破玉籠飛彩鳳，頓開金鎖走蛟龍.  
明. 羅貫中《宋太祖龍虎風雲會》雄赳赳人披繡襖，不剌剌馬頓絨絛. 
關漢卿(山西運城人) and 羅貫中(山西太原人) were northerners.  They wrote 頓 instead of 扽.

頓 was homophonous with 扽 (《唐韻》《集韻》都困切，音頓).  頓's pronunciations in various dialects include:
北京 /tuən/ (pinyin dun), 濟南 /tuẽ/, 太原 /tuŋ/, 西安 /tuẽ/, 蘇州 /tən/, 合肥 /tən/, 長沙 /tən/, 武昌 /tən/, 漳州 /tun/, 廣州 /tøn/ (deon6).

零 was homophonous with 拎 (《唐韻》《集韻》郞丁切，音零). 零's pronunciations in various dialects include: 
北京 /liŋ/, 濟南 /liŋ/, 太原 /liŋ/, 西安 /liŋ/, 蘇州 /lin/, 合肥 /lin/, 長沙 /lin/, 武昌 /nin/, 漳州 /lan/, 廣州 /liŋ/.

See the pattern?


----------



## yuechu

Thanks, everyone, for your replies! 



Skatinginbc said:


> 頓 was homophonous with 扽 (《唐韻》《集韻》都困切，音頓). 頓's pronunciations in various dialects include:
> 北京 /tuən/ (pinyin dun), 濟南 /tuẽ/, 太原 /tuŋ/, 西安 /tuẽ/, 蘇州 /tən/, 合肥 /tən/, 長沙 /tən/, 武昌 /tən/, 漳州 /tun/, 廣州 /tøn/ (deon6).
> 
> 零 was homophonous with 拎 (《唐韻》《集韻》郞丁切，音零). 零's pronunciations in various dialects include:
> 北京 /liŋ/, 濟南 /liŋ/, 太原 /liŋ/, 西安 /liŋ/, 蘇州 /lin/, 合肥 /lin/, 長沙 /lin/, 武昌 /nin/, 漳州 /lan/, 廣州 /liŋ/.


Wow, this is fascinating! Are there dialect dictionaries on the internet where you can get this information? It's so neat to be able to compare the dialects like this! Thanks, Skatinginbc!


----------

