# duas cervejas (Carioca)



## kynnjo

In the Carioca accent, would one pronounce "duas cervejas" as

dua*sh s*ervejash

or as

dua*ss*ervejash

Judging only by my level of difficulty in producing these two alternatives, especially in rapid speech, I would guess that the second form is the one most commonly used in Carioca, but obviously for all I know, to a native Carioca speaker, the first form may not be difficult at all.

Thanks!

~K


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## Nonstar

Kynnjo,

I´m just a neighbour (pauli_sh_ta) but I believe it is easier for our cariocash to use the second choice, for obvious reasons. That has to do with being economical.
Just for the record, you might even hear them say: duaj (zh - like in mea_s_ure), or duaj (like in _j_amón).

Hope it helped.


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## kynnjo

Nonstar said:


> Kynnjo,
> 
> I´m just a neighbour (pauli_sh_ta) but I believe it is easier for our cariocash to use the second choice, for obvious reasons. That has to do with being economical.
> Just for the record, you might even hear them say: duaj (zh - like in mea_s_ure), or duaj (like in _j_amón).
> 
> Hope it helped.



Muito obrigado!

~K


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## Boris i17

Am I late? I hope not, hehe.

Well, I'm carioca and I think I can help you a bit more precisely. But consider what Nonstar said, he's absolutely right.



kynnjo said:


> Judging only by my level of difficulty in producing these two alternatives, especially in rapid speech, I would guess that the second form is the one most commonly used in Carioca, but obviously for all I know, to a native Carioca speaker, the first form may not be difficult at all.



Well, you're a bit wrong about "the first form may not be difficult at all". I'll tell you a thing: it IS dificult for us to say it this way, because we would have to stop suddenly at the middle of the sentence. If we were talking slowly, of course, it would be a lot easier.

*Duas cervejas*, we say exactly *duasservehash*, the second option. But keep in mind that many of us unconsciously often don't say the *"sh"*, but don't do that, it's not very intelligent.  

See you!


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## kynnjo

Boris i17 said:


> *Duas cervejas*, we say exactly *duasservehash*, the second option.



Glad to know.  I'll drink duasservejash to that!  

~K


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## Istriano

It's funny that in Continental Portuguese (which is chiante ''sh''-pronouncing like the city of Rio), the relaxed/fast pronunciation would be:  duashervezhash, -s + s- makes /sh(sh)/, unlike /s/ in _carioquês_.
Another thing, nascer which is frequently _nasher _in relaxed Continental Portuguese, but it is _nasser _in Brazilian Portuguese (and it can be _naissê(r)_ in carioquês:  _eu naisci_  ).


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## Leandro

True, it's not a "sh" sound but a "j" sound as the "s" in "measure". Thus it's not "duash cerverjash" but "duaj cervejaj" instead. It does sound weird saying "s" like "sh".


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## Istriano

I still think carioca s's/z's are voiceless at the very end of the word (isolated) and at the end of the sentence and before a voiceless consonant:

Quero é ser *feliz*. [fehleesh  or  feeleesh]   sh
Feliz Páscoa. sh
Feliz é quem sabe amar.   z
Feliz dia dos namorados.  zh


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## Guigo

Some may disagree with me and others will say that I'm crazy but I can identify 3 different accents within the limits of the city of Rio de Janeiro. I divide through 3 major areas but it's a very personal division.

_1. Zona Sul_
_2. Centro & Zona Norte_ (the one I speak)
_3. Zona Oeste_

New areas like _Barra-Recreio_ while between 1. and 3. have received a great influx of people coming from 2. and then I'd list these areas as _incerta sedis_.

The Carioca accent for beginners and for many scholars (who don't live here) sounds like a blend of 1. and 2. However, the differences among them are very smooth (varying slightly according to age, education level, ect) and hard to be noticed except for a 'trained' ear.

That said the final _s/z_ may sound _/j /sh /ss_... if it can be clearly defined geographically I leave it to the specialists.

Also, it's noticeable that there are differences between the accents of the city and the accents of its surroundings, but it's another story.


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## Nonstar

Tell you one funny thing. This guy used to work with me, he´s from Nikity (Niterói city) and pronounces words in the most bizarre way, to my paulista (meu!) ears. Examples:
ônibus(busão)=buisão 
passagem=paissazi 
nascer=naicer 
hoje=ozi/oizi 
Jesus=Zezuihh 
dois real=dohhreá 

Do you confirm guys?


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## Istriano

I can't identify all these differences but there is a carioca accent I like (think _Paula Toller_) and there is one I don't like (think _Fernanda Abreu_). 
This reminds me of L.A. - there is a standard Californian accent, and a Valley Girl / Surfer's dude accent that sounds completely different.


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## Guigo

Istriano said:


> I can't identify all these differences but there is a carioca accent I like (think _Paula Toller_) and there is one I don't like (think _Fernanda Abreu_).
> This reminds me of L.A. - there is a standard Californian accent, and a Valley Girl / Surfer's dude accent that sounds completely different.


 
Paula Toller was raised in Tijuca (_Zona Norte_).

Fernanda Abreu was raised in Jardim Botânico (_Zona Sul_).


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## Guigo

Nonstar said:


> Tell you one funny thing. This guy used to work with me, he´s from Nikity (Niterói city) and pronounces words in the most bizarre way, to my paulista (meu!) ears. Examples:
> ônibus(busão)=buisão
> passagem=paissazi
> nascer=naicer
> hoje=ozi/oizi
> Jesus=Zezuihh
> dois real=dohhreá
> 
> Do you confirm guys?


 
Nikity is another planet...


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## Nonstar

Guigo said:


> Nikity is another planet...


Indeed!! LOL!


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## Leandro

Istriano said:


> I can't identify all these differences but there is a carioca accent I like (think _Paula Toller_) and there is one I don't like (think _Fernanda Abreu_).
> This reminds me of L.A. - there is a standard Californian accent, and a Valley Girl / Surfer's dude accent that sounds completely different.



It's all about the "intonation" and "rhythm" when you speak. Paula Toller has a "carioca accent", a more neutral one; Fernanda Abreu, on the other hand, has a very strong "carioca accent" - the one spoken by most of the rich girls from the south part of the the city (Copacabana, Ipanema, Leblon, Laranjeiras, Jardim Botânico, etc.)


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## Vanda

I've been trying to remember something I intended to say for such a long time. Damn Alzheimer! Well, go to that famous video site, look for Fullgás, Marina Lima (the accoustic one) and listen to her speaking a nice ''carioquês" full of /ssshh/ and then repeating the sound in the lyrics, mainly when she sings the words _/reshpeito/ carash/ discosh/ fullgásh/ eshperto/ eshtar/ braçosh/ paísh/ fazh/ _f_elizh/_ and so on.


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## Istriano

Marina Lima is not from Rio, but from Nikitty


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## Guigo

Istriano said:


> Marina Lima is not from Rio, but from Nikitty


 
Same place for Cauby Peixoto, Sergio Mendes, Baby Consuelo, Zelia Duncan and Ronnie Von.


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## Vanda

aham... voltando pro tema.... e meus dedos estão coçando para começar a deletar todos os _off-topics._


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## Guigo

Vanda said:


> aham... voltando pro tema.... e meus dedos estão coçando para começar a deletar todos os _off-topics._


 
Vanda, ao citar cantores conhecidos, fica para os amigos não-lusófonos a opção de ouvi-los e captar seus sotaques. Têm tudo a ver com o tópico!


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## pedrohenrique

People:
I am carioca, and never said (or heard anybody saying) "duasservejash".
At my ears it would sound totally weird ("eshtranho").
I say, as in Kinnjos' first idea, "duash cervejash", or even "duaj cervejaj". 
Speaking swiftly, I say "doizônibush", "duash passagensh", "doish reaish".
I hear less educated people saying "doish reau".
As Guigo said, Niterói is another planet, but some of Nonstar's examples sound totally strange, and even my acquaintances from Niterói would be astonished at such pronunciation.


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## Istriano

It seems strange.

The contrast in

Carioca/Continental Portuguese vs Non-carioca Brazilian Pt is

palatal ~ non-palatal (sibilant)

sh ~ s

zh ~ z

Respecting the original voicedness/voicelessness.


I've always heard carioca's final s's as unvoiced: [sh]'s  (which are just a palatalized version of my sibilant [s]'s):  coisas [kojzas / kojzash].

[kojzazh] sounds strange  (unless linked to a word starting with a voiced consonant: as in:  coisas mexicanas).

Beats me, maybe cariocas hear they [sh's] as [zh's]...
We've yet to find a linguistic paper stating Carioca Portuguese exibits final voicing of [sh]'s. It would be an unprecedented thing in Portuguese language phonetics.


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## Erick404

Istriano said:


> It seems strange.
> 
> The contrast in
> 
> Carioca/Continental Portuguese vs Non-carioca Brazilian Pt is
> 
> palatal ~ non-palatal (sibilant)
> 
> sh ~ s
> 
> zh ~ z
> 
> Respecting the original voicedness/voicelessness.
> 
> 
> I've always heard carioca's final s's as unvoiced: [sh]'s  (which are just a palatalized version of my sibilant [s]'s):  coisas [kojzas / kojzash].
> 
> [kojzazh] sounds strange  (unless linked to a word starting with a voiced consonant: as in:  coisas mexicanas).
> 
> Beats me, maybe cariocas hear they [sh's] as [zh's]...
> We've yet to find a linguistic paper stating Carioca Portuguese exibits final voicing of [sh]'s. It would be an unprecedented thing in Portuguese language phonetics.



But our final -s and -z are only voiced when preceding a word starting with a voiced consonant!
*
Coisaj bolivianas*
but
*Coisash peruanas*
or, before a vowel:
*Coisaz americanas 

*I'd never expect to hear "*coisaj americanas*", it definetely doesn't happen in Carioca accent. However, when speaking more slowly, the final -s tends to sound as -sh in all cases.


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