# versprechen



## gaer

Ralf and Who:

I want to mention one point immediately:



			
				Ralf said:
			
		

> As you can see from my corrections the sentence "Ich frage mich ..." answers the qusetion "*Wen* frage ich?" (*wen *= accusative of *wer*)


 You can do the same thing with "Ich frage dich".

But that does not explain this: "Ich helfe dir." Nor does it explain why it is "Wem helfe ich?"

That fact is that we just have to memorize these. I have to point this out to you. Logic does NOT work here. If you are German, you simply know which verbs use dative. If you are a foreigner learning German, you just have to memorize them.

It's the same problem as this:

Die Katze, die Katzen. But: DER Junge, die Jungen. Add to that a whole class of such masculine nouns, which look feminine, that are what we call "n-nouns".

Der Mensch, die Menschen, der Menschen, des Menchen
Der Junge, die Jungen, der Jungen, des Jungen
Der Löwe, die Löwen, der Löwen, des Löwen

Same for Affe and some other animals. THIS is what makes German crazy. THIS is why I almost refuse to write it. I'm serious. I hate this part of German. It makes me crazy. 

I'm mentioning this because there are countless times when rules just don't work. There are NO rules that I know of for gender that work all the time. Again, nothing works except memory. 

So you have verbs like kennen, verstehen and SO many others that take accusative.

Then you have verbs like helfen. which take dative. Why? No reason. It's the way the German language works. In English, "help" works the same was as most other verbs. That's why we all screw up "helfen" when we attempt to learn German. 

But versprechen, which Who mentioned, is different, because it is a total nightmare:

*I. 1.* jmdm. etw. v. _jmdm. etw. fest zusichern, ausdrücklich erklären, etw. bestimmt zu tun_: ich verspreche 
*II.* sich v. _aus Versehen ein Wort falsch aussprechen, einen Satz sinnwidrig sprechen_: ich habe mich nur versprochen 

I'm mentioning this just to point out to you all that you "navigate throught these problems" effortlessly, purely by feel, and much of the time you don't even know that potential problems exist. It is the same for me in English!

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> Ralf and Who:
> 
> I want to mention one point immediately:
> 
> You can do the same thing with "Ich frage dich".
> 
> But that does not explain this: "Ich helfe dir." Nor does it explain why it is "Wem helfe ich?"


Just remember: "Ich erkläre dir (Dativ) etwas", "Ich verspreche dir etwas", "Ich schreibe dir etwas", "Ich schenke dir etwas, ... All of these sentences answer the question "*Wem* erkläre/verspreche/schreibe/schenke dir etwas?

On the other hand we say: "Ich frage dich", "Ich erinnere dich", "Ich sehe dich", "Ich verfolge dich", "Ich höre dich", "Ich liebe dich", ... To get these answers we have to ask "*Wen *frage/erinnere/sehe/verfolge/höre/liebe ich?", which requires the accusative. Unfortunately I can't come up with some plausible explanation. I simply would agree with this 





> That fact is that we just have to memorize these. I have to point this out to you. Logic does NOT work here. If you are German, you simply know which verbs use dative. If you are a foreigner learning German, you just have to memorize them.





> So you have verbs like kennen, verstehen and SO many others that take accusative.
> 
> Then you have verbs like helfen. which take dative. Why? No reason. It's the way the German language works. In English, "help" works the same was as most other verbs. That's why we all screw up "helfen" when we attempt to learn German.


Unfortunately I can't do anything about. It's just the way it is.





> But versprechen, which Who mentioned, is different, because it is a total nightmare: ....


Yes, the nightmare starts since we have to different words: 
(1) versprechen = to promise, to pledge 
(2) (sich) versprechen = to have/make a slip of the tongue

I'm afraid again, there's probably no other way but memorizing the usage.

Ralf


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## Whodunit

I agree with some of your statements and Ralf's explanation: You can only memorize the requirements of the verbs.

Please remember my thread called "kosten + dat./acc.", because not even a German knows when to use dative and when accusative. Let me come back to it again:

"Es kostet ihm/ihn die Stelle."

I asked my German teacher and she didn't even know the answer what's correct. And consider the next:

"Es kostet mich die Stelle."

My German teacher didn't also know why you can't say 'mir' in this case, but every native German speaker knows that it's impossible to say 'mir' because it would make an awkward sound. Let's go to the next:

"Er kostet den Käse."

Again, this is a verb that can require undiably accusative, but in its other meaning, it can _also_ require dative. Like 'versprechen'.

My German-English dictionary even says when to use the 'dative' case and when the 'accusative' one. BTW, we call it "Rektion (government)". Let me copy some paragraphs:



> a) *controvert* _v/t._ ... *2.* ... wider'sprechen (_dat._) ...
> 
> b) *descend* ... *4.* (*to*) zufallen (_dat._), 'übergehen, sich vererben (auf '_acc._) ...
> 
> c) *observe* ... *4.* Bemerkungen machen, sich äußern (*on*, _*upon*_ über _acc._) ...



That's a really helpful dictionary.


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## beigatti

Frohe Ostern allerseits!

Ich werde die dativ-akkusative Frage auf Engisch beantworten, denn ich kann mich besser ausdrucken.

Gaer, I respectfully disagree with you.  It makes perfect sense.

First of all, it all has to do with the object of the sentence...not the verb.  The direct object takes the accusative, the indirect object takes the dative.  If you can put a "to" or "for" in front of the object, it is the indirect object:

He gave (to) me the book.
Er hat mir das Buch gegeben. ("mir" is the indirect object)

I am sending (to) you the letter.
Ich schicke dir den Brief. ("dir" is the indirect object, "Brief" is the direct object)

I promise (to) you...
Ich verspreche dir...

The same is with Wen/Wem.  Wen is the direct object...Wem is the indirect object...

I saw him
Ich habe ihn gesehen (direct object)
Wen hast du gesehen?

I mailed the letter to Lola.
I habe den Brief Lola geschickt. (Lola is the indirect object)
Wem hast du den Brief geschikt?

Es ist alles ganz logisch!

Jo-Ann


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## beigatti

noch etwas...

there are prepositions that ALWAYS take the accusative...

für
um
durch
gegen 
ohne

these prepositions ALWAyS take the dative:
aus
ausser 
bei 
mit 
nach 
seit 
von 
zu
gegenüber

How do I remember?  ...you can sing them to the tune of the blue danube (except for gegenüber)

aus ausser bei mit...nach seit....von zu

 aus ausser bei mit...nach seit....von zu




Jo-Ann


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## gaer

Hi Ralf,



			
				Ralf said:
			
		

> Just remember: "Ich erkläre dir (Dativ) etwas", "Ich verspreche dir etwas", "Ich schreibe dir etwas", "Ich schenke dir etwas, ... All of these sentences answer the question "Wem erkläre/verspreche/schreibe/schenke dir etwas?


But that's no problem, because there you have both an indirect and a direct object. That makes it the same as English, so your examples above fall into the category of "no problem". 

*I'm explaining something to you.
I'm promising you something./I'm promising something to you.
I'm writing you something./I'm writing something to you.
I'm sending you something./I'm sending something to you.

Notice that you can't do the first sentence both ways? Why? NO reason, and that is exactly the kind of thing that also happens in German that I've been talking about, when suddenly a pattern breaks down and there is no logical reason or handy "rule". 


> On the other hand we say: "Ich frage dich", "Ich erinnere dich", "Ich sehe dich", "Ich verfolge dich", "Ich höre dich", "Ich liebe dich", ... To get these answers we have to ask "Wen frage/erinnere/sehe/verfolge/höre/liebe ich?", which requires the accusative.


But any American will think: WEN helfe ich"? Because in English, it would be the direct object. And of course this is totally wrong.

In order to make it work in English, you have to use a trick:

TO WHOM am I GIVING help… 

Ich verfolge dich, ich folge dir.

Ich beantworte deine Frage./Ich antworte dir.

There probably are rules, but these are so strange, I found it easier just to remember them. 

Same with helfen, danken, other verbs that take dative. I don't find these particularly hard, but I do them by sound and feel, not by rules. "Hilf(e) mir!" "Ich danke dir." Sometimes the easiest way to learn certain things is just to forget about rules!

Now, I'll bet you can find something tricky and illogical in English for every tough example I mentioned in German, right? And our spelling is much worse! 

Gaer


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## gaer

beigatti said:
			
		

> Frohe Ostern allerseits!
> 
> Ich werde die dativ-akkusative Frage auf Engisch beantworten, denn ich kann mich besser ausdrucken.
> 
> Gaer, I respectfully disagree with you. It makes perfect sense.


The examples you chose are easy and make sense.

But if you think all German verbs are logical and follow rules that will instantly tell you whether or not to use dative or accusative, I think you are in for some nasty surprises. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Please remember my thread called "kosten + dat./acc.", because not even a German knows when to use dative and when accusative. Let me come back to it again:
> 
> "Es kostet ihm/ihn die Stelle."
> 
> I asked my German teacher and she didn't even know the answer what's correct.


 Yup.  So hard!


> And consider the next:
> 
> "Es kostet mich die Stelle."
> 
> My German teacher didn't also know why you can't say 'mir' in this case, but every native German speaker knows that it's impossible to say 'mir' because it would make an awkward sound. Let's go to the next:


 That's the whole point. You can't reduce language to a set of equations or rules, or you will be very logically wrong! 


> My German-English dictionary even says when to use the 'dative' case and when the 'accusative' one. BTW, we call it "Rektion (government)". Let me copy some paragraphs:
> 
> a) controvert v/t. ... 2. ... wider'sprechen (dat.) ...
> 
> b) descend ... 4. (to) zufallen (dat.), 'übergehen, sich vererben (auf 'acc.) ...
> 
> c) observe ... 4. Bemerkungen machen, sich äußern (on, upon über acc.) ...


 I go straight here whenever possible, to WDG:

http://www.dwds.de/cgi-bin/dwds/test/query.cgi?wdg=1

Then I type in the verb, get the page and use Ctrl F to find "sprechen", getting:

*-sprechen* (er widerspricht), widersprach, hat widersprochen *1.* jmdm., einer Sache w. _jmdm., jmds. Meinungsäußerung, einer Sache mit Worten entgegentreten, gegen etw. Einwände erheben, etw. für unrichtig erklären_ [there is much more, of course…]

But this is only good if you can read a German monoligual dictionary. 

Gaer


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## gaer

beigatti said:
			
		

> noch etwas...
> 
> How do I remember? ...you can sing them to the tune of the blue danube (except for gegenüber)
> 
> aus ausser bei mit...nach seit....von zu
> 
> aus ausser bei mit...nach seit....von zu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jo-Ann


Cool trick!!!

aus ausser bei mit...nach seit....von zu
but don't forget ge…gen ü… ber too!

I'm a musician, so I can't help rhyming to music the same way. 

Gaer


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## beigatti

gaer said:
			
		

> The examples you chose are easy and make sense.
> 
> But if you think all German verbs are logical and follow rules that will instantly tell you whether or not to use dative or accusative, I think you are in for some nasty surprises.


 
Vielleicht sind nicht ALLE Verben logisch.   

I just mean that if you know English grammer (as an English speaker)..you know to use dative with the indirect object and accusative with the direct object.  The problem is, I know many who do not know simple grammar concepts in their mother tongue, so learning a foreign language becomes more difficult.

I had a discussion with someone on the English language forum about a month ago...he insisted NO ONE used whom.  I said that I did...and he thought I was not being honest.  I did an unscientific poll...I asked my sister to use "whom" in a sentence.  She does not have a university education.  She said "he married WHOM?"  I asked my daughter...studying communication...she said she never used whom.  German grammar, especially the use of the dative and accusative, is difficult for English speakers to grasp, but impossible if you don't know English grammar.

Verzeih mir, dass ich auf Englisch geschrieben habe.  Es ist noch nicht 6 Uhr früh, und ich habe noch keinen Kaffee getrunken.

Jo-Ann


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## gaer

jo-ann said:
			
		

> Vielleicht sind nicht ALLE Verben logisch.


I think we have to invent ways to make languages seem logical, and I don't think we realize how illogical our native languages are until people who are learning begin asking questions. 


> I just mean that if you know English grammer (as an English speaker)..you know to use dative with the indirect object and accusative with the direct object. The problem is, I know many who do not know simple grammar concepts in their mother tongue, so learning a foreign language becomes more difficult.


I totally agree with you.


> I had a discussion with someone on the English language forum about a month ago...he insisted NO ONE used whom. I said that I did...and he thought I was not being honest. I did an unscientific poll...I asked my sister to use "whom" in a sentence. She does not have a university education. She said "he married WHOM?" I asked my daughter...studying communication...she said she never used whom. German grammar, especially the use of the dative and accusative, is difficult for English speakers to grasp, but impossible if you don't know English grammar.


I agree that learning a language such as German without understanding grammar is much more difficult and perhaps often impossible. I would never say that "no one uses 'whom' ", and in fact there are some very strange opinions expressed in the Enlgish forum. The problem is these opinions are not stated as opinions or preferences but as facts. I rarely use "whom", but I am very careful about wer/wen/wem. 


> Verzeih mir, dass ich auf Englisch geschrieben habe. Es ist noch nicht 6 Uhr früh, und ich habe noch keinen Kaffee getrunken.


I am totally exhausted myself. I could not write a proper German sentence at the moment if my life depended on it!

Gaer


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## Larvarin

I made a website on German Grammar, which has most of the subjects you talk about here on it. I wanted to ask: Am I allowed to post the link here? My site is free, non-commercial. I'm doing it for school. I just wanted to get some feedback from English-speakers, see if my site is useful and stuff. It just seems like it would be pretty useful here. I have sections that include:
-declension tables of articles and nouns
-hints on how to know what gender a noun has
-a list of prepositions that trigger certain cases
-a game to practice noun cases
-a list of nouns with pluralforms, translations, and sound files to show how they are pronounced
etc.

So, um, I wanted to ask: if I'm not allowed to just post a link, is there any other way how I'm allowed to communicate my site to you?


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## Whodunit

Larvarin said:
			
		

> I made a website on German Grammar, which has most of the subjects you talk about here on it. I wanted to ask: Am I allowed to post the link here? My site is free, non-commercial. I'm doing it for school. I just wanted to get some feedback from English-speakers, see if my site is useful and stuff. It just seems like it would be pretty useful here. I have sections that include:
> -declension tables of articles and nouns
> -hints on how to know what gender a noun has
> -a list of prepositions that trigger certain cases
> -a game to practice noun cases
> -a list of nouns with pluralforms, translations, and sound files to show how they are pronounced
> etc.
> 
> So, um, I wanted to ask: if I'm not allowed to just post a link, is there any other way how I'm allowed to communicate my site to you?



Hi Lavarin,

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, you can't post a link until you arrived at 40 or 50 posts, I think. But you could mark the link in your browser and maybe paste it here. No matter how it is. If that doesn't work, please say it and we can go to another forum or you can send me an email. So I can insert the link here.

It would be really great to have such a useful site.


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## Larvarin

Hm, perhaps if I posted it like this?
germangrammar dot gymliestal dot ch


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## Whodunit

Larvarin said:
			
		

> Hm, perhaps if I posted it like this?
> germangrammar dot gymliestal dot ch



If you mean germangrammars.gymliestal.ch, it doesn't work, or I'm too silly to understand you.

Außerdem kannst du im Deutschforum auf Deutsch schreiben.


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## Larvarin

You got one mistake in it. It's "germangrammar", not "germangrammar*s*". Without the S. Other than that it's correct.


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## gaer

Larvarin said:
			
		

> You got one mistake in it. It's "germangrammar", not "germangrammar*s*". Without the S. Other than that it's correct.


Well, the link doesn't work for me either, without the "s". I even did a Google search.

To bad, because I'd like to take a look at your information! 

Gaer


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## Larvarin

Remember not to write the double-you double-you double-you.
Just ayche-tee-tee-pee :// and then the address I gave you.


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## gaer

Larvarin said:
			
		

> Remember not to write the double-you double-you double-you.
> Just ayche-tee-tee-pee :// and then the address I gave you.


I see no reason not to put this here, since it is not a commercial site if there are no copyright violations. I noticed that you listed sources, pages from books. I know nothing about the law when it comes to such matters.

If one of us can clear it with a Mod, we can post the link here. I only took a quick look, but it looks as though you have done a very good job!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

Larvarin said:
			
		

> Remember not to write the double-you double-you double-you.
> Just ayche-tee-tee-pee :// and then the address I gave you.



Yes, I got it.

Here is the full link, actually it has to work:

http://germangrammar.gymliestal.ch/


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## Whodunit

Larvarin said:
			
		

> I made a website on German Grammar, which has most of the subjects you talk about here on it. I wanted to ask: Am I allowed to post the link here? My site is free, non-commercial. I'm doing it for school. I just wanted to get some feedback from English-speakers, see if my site is useful and stuff. It just seems like it would be pretty useful here. I have sections that include:
> -declension tables of articles and nouns
> -hints on how to know what gender a noun has
> -a list of prepositions that trigger certain cases
> -a game to practice noun cases
> -a list of nouns with pluralforms, translations, and sound files to show how they are pronounced
> etc.
> 
> So, um, I wanted to ask: if I'm not allowed to just post a link, is there any other way how I'm allowed to communicate my site to you?



That a perfect site! BTW, how old are you? You did really a good job. I'm impressed. It's 100% appreciated for every native English speaker.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> That a perfect site! BTW, how old are you? You did really a good job. I'm impressed. It's 100% appreciated for every native English speaker.


Something is wrong with that last sentence. Here are two, guessing at your possible meaning…

It's 100% useful for every native English speaker.
It's should be 100% appreciated by every native English speaker.

I agree, the site is excellent!

And with that, good night to all!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Something is wrong with that last sentence. Here are two, guessing at your possible meaning…
> 
> It's 100% useful for every native English speaker.
> It's should be 100% appreciated by every native English speaker.
> 
> I agree, the site is excellent!
> 
> And with that, good night to all!
> 
> Gaer



I understand your first suggestion very well, but what about the second one? It has to be either "It should be ..." or "It's ...", hasn't it?


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## Larvarin

whodunit said:
			
		

> That a perfect site! BTW, how old are you? You did really a good job. I'm impressed. It's 100% appreciated for every native English speaker.


 
Oh, thank you very much. ^_^ And I'm 18. 
So, does anyone have any other comments, suggestions, about the site? (well, you can also write em into the guest book)


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## Whodunit

Larvarin said:
			
		

> Oh, thank you very much. ^_^ And I'm 18.
> So, does anyone have any other comments, suggestions, about the site? (well, you can also write em into the guest book)



You're welcome. I think we can collect such useful sites and post them as stickies here.


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