# как бы не



## pimlicodude

This is from Solzhenitsyn:


> эта угроженная и далеко не осуществлённая мера приграничного выселения, вызванная контрабандой, разросшейся до опасных для государства размеров, – откликнулась в Европе таким негодованием, что как бы именно не она резко поссорила европейское общественное мнение с Россией


The именно не она seems literally to mean that "it wasn't the thng that caused Jewish public opinion to fall out with Russia".
But the meaning seems to be the opposite: that the measure introduced by Tsar Nicholas I (она = мера here) was the thing that causes European Jewry to quarrel with Russia.
Could there be an implied question here: откликнулась в Европе таким негодованием, что МОЖЕМ СПРОСИТЬ, НЕ ОНА ЛИ ТО, ЧТО резко поссорило европейское общественное мнение с Россией?


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## Vovan

pimlicodude said:


> Could there be an implied question here: откликнулась в Европе таким негодованием, что МОЖЕМ СПРОСИТЬ, НЕ ОНА ЛИ ТО, ЧТО резко поссорило европейское общественное мнение с Россией?


Yes, something of the kind.

The phrase *"как бы не..."* (="очень может быть, что именно..."; connotes the speaker's concern over something) is used from time to time in modern colloquial speech, but usually as part of rather less complex syntactical structures:
_Не знаю, что тут произошло... Как бы не грабители заходили в гости... _(~I've no idea what happened here... Hopefully, it wasn't a visit from burglars - although it very much looks like it...; The stress is on "грабители".)​


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## pimlicodude

Vovan said:


> Yes, something of the kind.
> 
> The phrase *"как бы не..."* (="очень может быть, что именно..."; connotes the speaker's concern over something) is used from time to time in modern colloquial speech, but usually as part of rather less complex syntactical structures:
> _Не знаю, что тут произошло... Как бы не грабители заходили в гости... _(~I've no idea what happened here... Hopefully, it wasn't a visit from burglars - although it very much looks like it...)​


Thank you, Vovan. I didn't know about как бы не as a phrase.


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## Vovan

Also: it's often emphasized with "сам/сама/сами" (when appropriate):
_Как бы не сама Маша это сделала, а не "подруги", как она утверждает. Как тебе мысль? _(~Let's only hope it wasn't Masha herself who did it - not "her friends", as she says. What do you think of that?; The stress is on the word "Masha".)​


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## pimlicodude

Vovan said:


> Also: it's often emphasized with "сам/сама/сами" (when appropriate):
> _Как бы не сама Маша это сделала, а не "подруги", как она утверждает. Как тебе мысль? _(~Let's hope it wasn't Masha herself who did it - not "her friends", as she says. What do you think of that?; The stress is on the word "Masha".)​


But you mean, surely, let's hope it WAS Masha herself...  (not "wasn't")?


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## Vovan

pimlicodude said:


> But you mean, surely, let's hope it WAS Masha herself... (not "wasn't")?


No! 
_*Как бы не* (=Очень может быть (и я этого опасаюсь), что) сама Маша это сделала, а не "подруги"._​


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## Awwal12

"Как бы не..." here is a kind of rhetorical "I hope it's not N..." >> "it's likely N that..."


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## Sobakus

It's the same wishing _как бы не_ as in ка́к бы не упа́сть! "I worry I might fall; I need to take care I don't", which developed from ка́к бы [это сде́лать что́бы] не упа́сть "I wonder how this can be done so as not to fall". The actor can be introduced with the dative (_мне, ему_) or as a personal clause: ка́к бы он не упа́л! The difference is that the use in the OP obviously cannot express a wish for the future because it describes a past occurrence that nobody can influence anymore; context determines interpretation, as always.


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## Vovan

Sobakus said:


> The difference is that the use in the OP obviously cannot express a wish for the future because it describes a past occurrence that nobody can influence anymore;


On the other hand, the implied part there may be seen as "Как бы не [оказалось так, что] именно она резко поссорила...". The reference to the future indicates that the author isn't completely sure and some further research may cast more light on the issue.


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## Enquiring Mind

> But you mean, surely, let's hope it WAS Masha herself... (not "wasn't")?


There's a useful discussion on the use of не *not* conveying a negative sense in this как бы не construction in a paper
'Peculiarities of Expressing the Apprehensive in Russian', Nadezhda Zorikhina Nilsson, University of Gothenburg, which you can find if you enter _peculiarities of expressing the apprehensive in russian - UiO _on Google.

The relevant parts, it seems to me, are [4] NEGATION OR NOT (page 60), and 4.2 _The preventive and the apprehensive_, (page 66), but the whole paper is worth a read, I think.


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## Sobakus

Vovan said:


> On the other hand, the implied part there may be seen as "Как бы не [оказалось так, что] именно она резко поссорила...". The reference to the future indicates that the author isn't completely sure and some further research may cast more light on the issue.


If the implied part was literally that, it would mean that the author hopes that when they establish the truth, it will be different from the contents of the proposition, and that they hope to do something to make sure the proposition doesn't turn out to be true (_как бы сделать чтобы не оказалось..._). This is not the implication, however. The author suspects that the actual truth is the contents of the proposition, and they're saying that from the past point of view this outcome was undesirable, but now it's a fact that cannot be changed (c.f. _I'm afraid it is true_). There is no indication that the speaker hopes to establish the truth through research, let alone influence it - it's a value judgement on the contents of the proposition assuming it to be true. In the OP as in most cases, the expression is used about a proposition whose truth can't be verified in principle.

Notice that I don't say that an ellipsis is implied in ка́к бы не упа́сть!, like there isn't anything implied in the OP's example. I say that this expression is idiomatic and developed out of an elliptic non-idiomatic expression. The resulting idiomatic expression is complete and already has this inherent attitudinal meaning, whose interpretation is different depending on whether the occurrence is past or present. The past variety is the same as the present variety but from the point of view of a past actor.


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## MIDAV

pimlicodude said:


> The именно не она seems literally to mean that "it wasn't the thng that caused Jewish public opinion to fall out with Russia".
> But the meaning seems to be the opposite: that the measure introduced by Tsar Nicholas I (она = мера here) was the thing that causes European Jewry to quarrel with Russia.
> Could there be an implied question here: откликнулась в Европе таким негодованием, что МОЖЕМ СПРОСИТЬ, НЕ ОНА ЛИ ТО, ЧТО резко поссорило европейское общественное мнение с Россией?



How is it Jewish and not European public opinion?

As to the passage in question, I never realized Solzhenitsyn's style is this wicked. I think an average Russian speaker would have problems understanding it. Out of context, most people would probably take it to mean the simpler negative version – the first one that you suggest: _it kind of really was not the thing that caused European public opinion to fall out with Russia._


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## pimlicodude

Enquiring Mind said:


> There's a useful discussion on the use of не *not* conveying a negative sense in this как бы не construction in a paper
> 'Peculiarities of Expressing the Apprehensive in Russian', Nadezhda Zorikhina Nilsson, University of Gothenburg, which you can find if you enter _peculiarities of expressing the apprehensive in russian - UiO _on Google.
> 
> The relevant parts, it seems to me, are [4] NEGATION OR NOT (page 60), and 4.2 _The preventive and the apprehensive_, (page 66), but the whole paper is worth a read, I think.


Enquiring mind, thanks for the reference.


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## pimlicodude

MIDAV said:


> How is it Jewish and not European public opinion?
> 
> As to the passage in question, I never realized Solzhenitsyn's style is this wicked. I think an average Russian speaker would have problems understanding it. Out of context, most people would probably take it to mean the simpler negative version – the first one that you suggest: _it kind of really was not the thing that caused European public opinion to fall out with Russia._


It's interesting to note that the passage might confuse a native speaker! It's possible for me to read a text and not realise how natural or un-natural the text might feel to a native speaker.


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## Vovan

Sobakus said:


> There is no indication that the speaker hopes to establish the truth through research, let alone influence it


"Как бы... не..." often introduces someone else's - in the speaker's opinion! - (natural) desire/hope that something should turn out false, not happen, etc.:

_Как бы плакать потом не пришлось! (А то губу, я смотрю, раскатала.)_​​* * *​​The OP's sentence reads to me as containing a *bold** (but rather mildly put) **assumption* by the author, who seems to be challenging the reader's (or maybe even his own current) view on the issue:

_Эта... мера... откликнулась в Европе таким негодованием, что как бы именно не она резко поссорила европейское общественное мнение с Россией__. _(That... measure... provoked so much indignation that it might well have been the chief cause for European public opinion to fall out with Russia.)​​


Sobakus said:


> Notice that I don't say that an ellipsis is implied in ка́к бы не упа́сть!, like there isn't anything implied in the OP's example.


Oh, I know that; my response was more of an off-topic rather than a conscious attempt to reframe your ideas.


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## Sobakus

Vovan said:


> The OP's sentence reads to me as containing a *bold** (but rather mildly put) **assumption* by the author, who seems to be challenging the reader's (or maybe even his own current) view on the issue:


Although usually I can follow your reasoning regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I must admit in this case I don't. I don't see a hint of challenging someone's opinion either in our passage or with the expression in general. The attitude it expresses is regret and hesitancy; it's as likely to be used of oneself as of someone else, but it's always judged from a personal point of view, making the 1st person the default. In your Как бы плакать потом не пришлось! for instance there's a healthy hint of the patronising we-address - it's a remonstrance, the opinion is fully the speaker's, and the charge is "if you knew what's good for you you wouldn't act this way". The upshot is that the same personal aspect allows it to express deep empathy.

Even your own translation "it might well have been" expresses no challenge. I would agree if you said that it expresses an idea that the writer presents as novel and does it in a rhetorical way. This is an extension of its worrying, hesitant, what-if attitude.


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