# All dialects: مرة، نسوان (woman, women)



## elroy

Hello!

It's well known that مرة in Egyptian is offensive/pejorative, and that the neutral/default term used is ست.  In Levantine, مرة is completely fine and serves as the neutral/default term.

I'm not sure about other dialects, though.  I was just talking to two Iraqi people, and I wanted to say مرة, but stopped mid-sentence because I think the Egyptian connotation has made me sensitized to using the word with any non-Levantine speaker!  The girl, who knew that I wanted to say "woman," supplied me with حرمة, which I guess could mean that مرة isn't appropriate (or isn't used) in Iraqi, that she was doing the same thing I was doing (avoiding مرة just in case), or that she used حرمة for some other reason entirely.  In any event, I'm interested in knowing which dialects use مرة at all, and what connotations it has in the dialects in which it's used.

And while we're at it, what about the plural?  In Palestinian نسوان is the neutral/default term, but I don't think that's the case in Egyptian.  What about other dialects?

Thanks!


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## djara

In Tunisian مرا (pronounced mraa) is the standard word for woman; plural: نسا (pronounced nsaa, and in certain regional varieties نساوين nsaween, a plurial influenced by Berber).
In educated speech سيدة (pronounced sayyda) is used for lady.


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## elroy

djara said:


> نساوين nsaween, a plurial influenced by Berber


 It's interesting you say that.  نساوين is used in Palestinian too, and I didn't think we had any Berber influences.


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## djara

elroy said:


> نساوين is used in Palestinian too, and I didn't think we had any Berber influences.


I should have said "probably influenced". However I wouldn't be surprised if the Palestinian usage was brought to Palestine by Maghrebian migrants. 
My knowledge of Berber is extremely limited but the following examples will show what I mean:
tafala, pl. tifaliwin sword/s
taferka, pl. tiferkiwin field/s
tafrawt, pl. tiferwin  beehive/s
efî, pl. êfawen shelter/s


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## tounsi51

I dont think nsaawin has any Berber influence, it's close to neswan. It's a Bedouin word because rural people from the south say rjajeel for men and it's used in the Gulf countries.

In addition to that, I think that the immigrants who came from North Africa to Palestine in 19th or 20th century were Moroccans mainly and Algerians and the word nsaween is not used in those countries as far as I know.


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## Zoghbi

@djara 
The similitude you note is only coincidental.
نساوين is a pluriel of pluriel, there are other example based on the same scheme (from algerian dialects):
جوارين from جيران
فراسين from فرسان
خرافين from خرفان
رعاوين from رعيان


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## Ousama Kassab

كلمة نسوة ونساء هي كلمات موزونة ومن العربية الفصحى. وارتأى مجمع الكتاب العرب إضافة كلمة نسوان إلى هذه اللائحة لكون نزار قباني - وهو شاعر سوري - استخدم هذا التعبير "الشامي" في قصائدة المكتوبة بالفصحى. 
أسامة قصاب


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> The girl, who knew that I wanted to say "woman," supplied me with حرمة, which I guess could mean that مرة isn't appropriate (or isn't used) in Iraqi, that she was doing the same thing I was doing (avoiding مرة just in case), or that she used حرمة for some other reason entirely.


I'd say that she was avoiding مرة just in case. It's used normally in Iraq also and I can't think of any other word to refer to a woman. حرمة and حريم are not used in Iraq, so the girl's reaction must be a borrowing from Gulf states. I've noticed that people from Iraq and the Levant after working a while in the Gulf start adopting a few words so they might continue to use them when they leave.


elroy said:


> And while we're at it, what about the plural?


نسوان is the plural, I've never heard نسواين although this form جمع الجمع على وزن فعالين is used in Iraq in other words: (جوارين مثلا)


Ousama Kassab said:


> وارتأى مجمع الكتاب العرب إضافة كلمة نسوان إلى هذه اللائحة لكون نزار قباني - وهو شاعر سوري - استخدم هذا التعبير "الشامي" في قصائدة المكتوبة بالفصحى.


If they decided to add it, then adding it merely because نزار قباني used it is illogical. I doubt that Nazaar had anything to do with the decision.


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## Hemza

"Wom(a/e)n" is craziness in Morocco!! (I mean the word haha)
مرة (_mraa _as in Tunisian) is completely fine in Morocco and is the regular word only at the singular. عيلات is usually the plural (in the North).
نسوية (_neswiyya_-but rarely used) and the plurals نسوان and نساوين and نسيان as well as نساع (from نساء the ء turning into a ع  ) are used in the South only although عيلات is frequent (also used in the North).

The pejorative equivalent of the Egyptian use is شيخة (while شيخ is fine, Moroccan's logic ).

سيدة is also used in the same context as in Tunisia and is often used to talk about a woman in a more respectful way (although there is nothing wrong with مرة contrary to Egypt).

This reminds me an anecdote my Egyptian friend told me about أم كلثوم giving a concert in Libya, he told me that a man in the audience shouted "again !" after she finished singing and he called her مرة (which is fine there too as in all Maghreb countries actually) and she didn't like it and insulted him haha.


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## Ousama Kassab

Mahaodeh said:


> If they decided to add it, then adding it merely because نزار قباني used it is illogical. I doubt that Nazaar had anything to do with the decision.


I check it on it and found nothing to support my (once heard) allegation. I should have been more accurate when saying something as a "fact". I apologize.


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## cherine

djara said:


> نسا (pronounced nsaa, and in certain regional varieties نساوين nsaween


There an interesting thing in EA: نساوين nasawiin and نسوان neswaan, both plural words, are used but mostly in lower social classes, and in rural areas. In both cases they're fine. The same as مرا mara. But they're considered offensive elsewhere (socially and geographically).

What is interesting is that while we don't use nesa نسا normally, a gynecologist is called دكتور نسا doctor nesa.


> In educated speech سيدة (pronounced sayyda) is used for lady.


In Egypt, this is almost only used in fuS7a.

Another word that is not offensive, but not very "elegant" either, is 7ariim حريم.



Hemza said:


> عيلات is usually the plural (in the North).


This reminds me of the word جماعة gamaa3a, which is used by some people for wife, for example: جماعته gama3to: his wife. It's mostly used by old people, conservative persons, and it sounds very old fashion (you'll hear it in some black and white movies). Some people use it jokingly. Also jokingly, a man can refer to his wife as الحكومة (el7okuuma), especially in the context of talking about the wife forbidding him from doing something, like staying out late or going to the cafés with his friends.


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## Hemza

cherine said:


> There an interesting thing in EA: نساوين nasawiin and نسوان neswaan, both plural words, are used but mostly in lower social classes, and in rural areas. In both cases they're fine.


I heard it in a صعيدي soap opera that I've watched one episode


> Also jokingly, a man can refer to his wife as الحكومة (el7okuuma), especially in the context of talking about the wife forbidding him from doing something, like staying out late or going to the cafés with his friends.



You made my whole day hahah! (I don't know for Morocco but for sure in France such metaphors aren't uncommon haha)


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## DWill

مَرْحَبًا

I’ve read before that in some Arabic dialects the word امْرَأَة, meaning ‘woman’, is considered rude. Which dialects is this true and not true for?


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## Hemza

DWill said:


> مَرْحَبًا
> I’ve read before that in some Arabic dialects the word امْرَأَة, meaning ‘woman’, is considered rude. Which dialects is this true and not true for?


At least, in some parts of Egypt. Read the post #1


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## Foxglove5

What is the age cutoff between بنت and  مرة? If I wanted to make it clear in an  online forum that I am female, would it be preferable to say انا بنت or انا مرة (or something else)?

In English I would call anyone over 18 a woman, but if the word مرة is potentially offensive, what would be a better choice in (colloquial) Arabic?


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## Mahaodeh

Foxglove5 said:


> What is the age cutoff between بنت and مرة? If I wanted to make it clear in an online forum that I am female, would it be preferable to say انا بنت or انا مرة (or something else)?


There is no cut-off age. In some dialects (Iraqi for example) people are referred to as ولد وبنت well into their thirties, I’ve even heard it for people in their forties, especially if the one referring to them is in the same age group or older. In others using ولد for anyone older than 20 would be offensive although بنت is usually used well until she is in her early thirties if she is not married.

What to say usually depends on the dialect. Saying مرة in many dialects is just fine, in some they tend to say إمرأة in fusHa, in some (Gulf dialects in particular) they go for حرمة, in Egyptian Arabic they like to say ست.

Personally I have no problem saying مرة despite what some might feel about it, I find it inoffensive and the idea that it is doesn’t make sense to me. However, if you want to avoid using it to be on the safe side, why not avoid all of them altogether and just say أنا وحدة مش واحد is you want to say that you are female or say أنا مش طفلة or أنا مش صغيرة to say that you are no longer a “girl”.

This my opinion, I hope it helps.


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## Foxglove5

Those are helpful, thank you. I never realized the word مرة was anything other than neutral but now I am intrigued. What about in Levantine Arabic? What would be the most acceptable word in Lebanese or Syrian or Palestinian dialects for a woman in her late 20s or 30s? Would it be ست? Would it depend on her marital status?


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## Schem

There's no age cutoff in my dialect either. Typically though, a بنت becomes a مرة upon marriage. In many contexts, referring to an adult woman as بنت indicates she's not yet married.


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## Mahaodeh

Foxglove5 said:


> What about in Levantine Arabic? What would be the most acceptable word in Lebanese or Syrian or Palestinian dialects for a woman in her late 20s or 30s? Would it be ست? Would it depend on her marital status?


In PA (probably other dialects too), in her late twenties she is definitely بنت, in her late 30s too if she is not married. 

مرة is neutral in PA and JA at least, probably in other Levantine dialects too. But it generally implies that she’s married - more so than it does in IA.


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## WadiH

I've heard people from a diverse set of countries (including Egypt and Lebanon) refer to women generically as حريم, and I've occasionally heard حرمة too.  I think it's one of those 'pan-Arabic' words that fell out of fashion in most places. Even in Saudi Arabia it's now considered very colloquial (i.e. often avoided even in the so-called 'white dialect').


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## cherine

Yes the word is used in Egypt. Like I said in a previous post, it’s not offensive but not very elegant. For the women wagon/car in tramways and subways, some say 3arabeyyet el 7arim, عربية الحريم while others say عربية الستات.
The singular is less accepted (tolerated) almost like the word مَرَة.
Again, the different words for woman, in Egypt, vary depending on location and social and education status.
The most neutral word for woman in Egypt is set ست.


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## Foxglove5

Doesn’t مرة also mean wife in Lebanon? I’m sure I’ve heard مرة الجيران and doesn’t  مرة البيي mean stepmother?


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## wriight

It does mean that, but only when the word is in an idafa (possessive construction), like "my wife" or "X's wife". We don't really have a way to say "a wife" or "the wife" on its own like in English, although you can probably go for زوجة if you need to. (It goes both ways: جوز/زوج for "husband" isn't really used except in possession, and something like الجوز is easier to understand as "almonds" than as "the husband")

I'm not sure how that squares with what Mahaodeh pointed out about how مرة implies that someone is married, though. I've heard something from family that's a little weird but which might be related: "الناسوان بين بعضهن بيقولوا _بنت_ عن العذراء لو إنها كبيرة بالعمر، بيقولوا _ختيارة بنت_ أو _عانس بس بنت_ يعني" (meaning calling someone بنت past girlhood can be related to virginity... but this might be an old-fashioned thing if the split between بنت and مرة is more about marriage nowadays).

By the way, as for whether مرة is neutral, keep in mind how much the Arabic language differs from place to place! مرة is just the only neutral way to say "woman" in Lebanese Arabic and other Levantine dialects, and there's no hint of offensiveness or crudeness in it for us. It's true that it's a bit crass in Egyptian Arabic, but that doesn't have any bearing on other dialects, and you only have to worry about avoiding مرة if you're speaking with somebody Egyptian. It's kinda like how calling someone a "spaz" is extremely offensive and tasteless in the UK, but it's pretty much exactly as innocent as the word "klutz" in the US.


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## Foxglove5

wriight said:


> مرة is just the only neutral way to say "woman" in Lebanese Arabic and other Levantine dialects, and there's no hint of offensiveness or crudeness in it for us.


I am very relieved to hear that because I called myself one just recently in a Lebanese context!


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## Hemza

In Morocco, some men may apostrophe their wife with
 يا/و المراة!!  (romanticism at its peak haha although nothing rude).


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## WadiH

In the traditional Riyadh dialect, مرة mostly means ‘wife’, while حرمة means either ‘woman’ if by itself or ‘wife’ if attached to a pronoun (e.g. حرمته means ‘his wife’).  حريم just means ‘women’.

In other Najdi dialects (e.g. القصيم), they use مرة to mean ‘woman’ or ‘wife’.

Of course other words like نسا and نسوان are known but not used as often.


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## tounsi51

In Tunisia, MSA of wife is حرمة

When people send a wedding invitation they always write السيد فلان و حرمته


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## Tilmeedh

Mahaodeh said:


> In PA (probably other dialects too), in her late twenties she is definitely بنت, in her late 30s too if she is not married.
> 
> مرة is neutral in PA and JA at least, probably in other Levantine dialects too. But it generally implies that she’s married - more so than it does in IA.



What about (صبيّة) in Levantine, Iraqi, Egyptian, and other dialects?

Also, what exactly are the connotations of (مرة) in Egyptian? Are there any equivalent terms in English?


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## tounsi51

In Tunisian Arabic, صبيّة means an unmarried woman


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## WannaBFluent

tounsi51 said:


> In Tunisia, MSA of wife is حرمة
> 
> When people send a wedding invitation they always write السيد فلان و حرمته


حرمة is the common term used in the Gulf.


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## WadiH

tounsi51 said:


> In Tunisia, MSA of wife is حرمة
> 
> When people send a wedding invitation they always write السيد فلان و حرمته



Are you sure it's حرمته and not وحَرَمُه?


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## Hemza

tounsi51 said:


> In addition to that, I think that the immigrants who came from North Africa to Palestine in 19th or 20th century were Moroccans mainly and Algerians and the word nsaween is not used in those countries as far as I know.


Maghrebis (Muslims) who immigrated to Palestine, who include Tunisians of course, did so in the 15th or 16th century . These may have left some words in the Palestinian dialect but not the Jews who came in the late 20th century (after the 50's) since these didn't mix with the Palestinians (which wasn't their goal anyway) especially that most of them left Arabic as their native language.

 نساء and its derivatives are used in bedouin dialects as far as I know in Algeria and Morocco.


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## emanko

elroy said:


> It's interesting you say that.  نساوين is used in Palestinian too, and I didn't think we had any Berber influences.



When I hear "nasaween", I can't help remembering مسرحية ريا وسكينة. Soheir Elbably used it 😅 

Niswan, horma, and mara are all offensive in  the main stream northern Egyptian dialect. 
But
It's acceptable to say: 
أستاذ فلان وحرمه 
أو حرم سيادة الوزير

@Hemza
Calling Om Kalthom "marac is near blasphemy in Egypt 😅 She is known to be called الست.


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## emanko

Tilmeedh said:


> What about (صبيّة) in Levantine, Iraqi, Egyptian, and other dialects?
> 
> Also, what exactly are the connotations of (مرة) in Egyptian? Are there any equivalent terms in English?



صببية is not very common in EA, maybe only in songs, but we generally use بنت.

About the connotations of 
حرمة، مرة ، نسوان in EA
they're perceived by some as derogatory, i.e. they are used to express a low opinion of women. 
ده كلام نسوان
This is women's talk. Meaning, it's not to be trusted or it's not final...etc.


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## tounsi51

WadiH said:


> Are you sure it's حرمته and not وحَرَمُه?



I don't remember which one I read


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## djara

WadiH said:


> Are you sure it's حرمته and not وحَرَمُه?


It's definitely وحَرَمُه


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## raamez

حَرَم is extremely formal in Syria in conrtary to حِرْمِة or حريمة which are near derogatory in our time.


tounsi51 said:


> In Tunisia, MSA of wife is حرمة
> 
> When people send a wedding invitation they always write السيد فلان و حرمته


It is usually السيد الفولاني وحرمه المصون as if حرمه alone were not enough 😁


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## Romeel

زوج/زوجة
حرمة
مرة (اختصار امرأة)
أهل
بيت


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## Hemza

emanko said:


> @Hemza
> Calling Om Kalthom "marac is near blasphemy in Egypt 😅 She is known to be called الست.


Recently, I faced an Egyptian man and asked him (for administrative purposes) شنو اسم مرتك؟ and I felt in his look that the word startled him .


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## Mahaodeh

Tilmeedh said:


> What about (صبيّة) in Levantine, Iraqi, Egyptian, and other dialects?


In Levantine dialects صبية is a young girl, it can be used for girls between 10 and 30, but it most often refers to teens (13 to 19) and young adults (20 to 25). 

In Iraqi Arabic it’s not common at all, they use the word حديثة instead, pronounced 7deetha with the ياء pronounced as in عين وزين. It’s the colloquial way of saying حُدَيْثَة, the diminutive.


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## emanko

Hemza said:


> Recently, I faced an Egyptian man and asked him (for administrative purposes) شنو اسم مرتك؟ and I felt in his look that the word startled him .



For some unknown reason, some Egyptian men are uncomfortable saying the names of their female relatives in general (wife-mother-sister...etc.) 😀 
So you could have said:
محتاج اسم الزوجة من فضلك 
Being a bit formal softens the impact of the question. 😀

 I'm speculating here but I think this discomfort stems from the fact that men are afraid that other men wold speak ill of their female relatives if they knew their names.🤔


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