# Newbies



## _forumuser_

Does anyone else find the word newbie that appears in some of the stickies around vaguely detracting and definitely unwelcoming? How about replacing it with something more positive like 'new members' or neutral like 'first-time users'? Ciao.


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## cuchuflete

> *newbie* *A
> *_ noun_
> *1
> *newcomer, fledgling, fledgeling, starter, neophyte, freshman, *newbie*, entrant
> 
> _any new participant in some activity_


WordNet/WR English definition.  



> –noun  a newcomer, esp. an inexperienced user of the Internet or of computers in general.
> [Origin: 1965–70
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> Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
> Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.



There is nothing degrading about the term.


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## _forumuser_

cuchuflete said:


> WordNet/WR English definition.
> 
> 
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> There is nothing degrading about the term.


 
From the tone of your reply I gather I might have offended someone inadvertently. Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I am asking if anyone else, not you in particular or the person who wrote the dictionary entry, finds it slightly inappropriate to call a "newbie" somebody who enters our community of friends with an interest in languages, as opposed to a football or army taining camp. I know the term is widely used--as all terms that enjoy wide mediatic and marketing endorsement are--but I would still like to hear other opinions.


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## danielfranco

Well, to me it's a breath of fresh air when anyone in cyberspace takes the time to actually spell out "newbie" to refer to me when I'm... erm... new in a site. Often, all you can aspire to is guys with the cute nick of "n00b ki773r" to flame you into oblivion.
So, yes, I think newbie is fine. "n00b", I think, is the actual snub.


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## _forumuser_

Just so that you don't think I am imagining things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie


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## danielfranco

Ah, Wiki, my old friend AND nemesis, you strike again! The article seems to validate your point AND mine...
Oh well, I guess you're right, but we all know we must pass certain rites of passage before we "belong" anywhere. Maybe you are right, and instead of newbie it should say junior member.


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## Jana337

I am surprised that it sounds unwelcoming to you, _fu_.  To me, it is almost affectionate. And many newcomers refer to themselves as newbies, not necessarily to display their ignorance.

Jana


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## _forumuser_

Jana337 said:


> I am surprised that it sounds unwelcoming to you, _fu_.  To me, it is almost affectionate. And many newcomers refer to themselves as newbies, not necessarily to display their ignorance.
> 
> Jana


 
Ciao Jana. Calling oneself a newbie may be a polite gesture a new member makes toward more experienced members to display her eagerness to learn from who knows more. But "veterans" do not need to flaunt their greater experience or the new member's ignorance of the rules by calling her names. Besides, all a new member needs to be a valuable part of this community right from the start is a dose of willingness to help and learn and decent manners. There are really no newbies here so why the hierarchical language? I am actually surprised that many think calling others "newbies" as in "Hey, newbie let me show how it's done here" is nice.


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## Nunty

I haven't observed anyone use the word as you suggest, _forumuser_. Did something specific happen to make you so sensitive to this term? I didn't have any problem with it when I started in this forum (my first online forum, by the way), and I haven't noticed anyone being mean to [insert politically correct term of your choice].


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## _forumuser_

Nun-Translator said:


> I haven't observed anyone use the word as you suggest, _forumuser_. Did something specific happen to make you so sensitive to this term? I didn't have any problem with it when I started in this forum (my first online forum, by the way), and I haven't noticed anyone being mean to [insert politically correct term of your choice].


 
I should have known I'd get myself into this...  I thought the wiki article gave ample evidence of the negative nuances the word has/can have. Perhaps as a speaker of English as a second language I am more sensitive to certain terms than people who have been exposed to them since childhood. But this is not a personal crusade. If this is only my problem I am more than happy to conform to the will of the majority.  And no, no harassment of newbies going on on the forum; our fine mods would tolerate none. I made up the sentence for that, I think, is the kind of situation the word most immediately evokes.

EDIT: Let me also add that I am not asking to ban the word form all dictionaries of English or that everyone stop using it today. I am saying that WRF, as an institution, should probably consider an alternative.


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## Nunty

Ah, well, I didn't read the wiki article, because I have major problems with the Wiki world. This is not the place for that.

I guess since I'm not in an English-speaking environment I miss nuances of your post. I think "newbie" is a neutral word and don't see a problem with using it in the stickies. The language of some of the stickies is a bit dry, but I don't find that "newbie" is part of the problem. Legislation/guidelines/rules can be like that.


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## xarruc

For what it is worth, personally I found newbie a little off-putting. It could be a BE thing or just that I don't generally freqent online communities.


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## DesertCat

I find the term to be somewhat condescending and specifically in the IE forum where there are no less than two stickies with newbies in the title it seems downright unfriendly.


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## .   1

What is wrong with calling a newbie a newbie.
It is an English term and is used by English speaking people in this forum on a regular basis.
I am stumped as to how this term could be demeaning.
Should I be ujpset that I am called a senior (old, pensioner, past my prime) member.
If you want to be insulted then even a gift of flowers can be taken as an insult.
I guess that I find it funny to be a newbie but it is a far more warm and inviting term than 'new member' or 'maiden poster' or 'member other than senior'.
I am totally tired of politically correct speech and implied criticism.
This forum has a culture of newbie use and I am quite comfortable with it.

.,,


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## DesertCat

I've always understood the word to have Cuchu's second meaning (that is someone new to computers/internet) so to reiterate I find it to be a term with a negative connotation.   Just because someone is new to WR doesn't mean they are new to forums in general. I noticed that the IE stickies have been modified since my previous post.  I thank whoever it was that did that.

I don't see this as a matter of being PC.  It's a matter of respect.


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## TrentinaNE

I believe my very first post at WRF started out "Ciao, newbie here." Having hung around other internet discussion groups, I've never thought the word had a negative connotation -- on the contrary, I find it kind of endearing.  But it's been eye-opening to read that others may take it differently, and I'll keep that in mind.

Elisabetta


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## .   1

I used 'newbie' as a self descriptive to explain my lack of understanding of the mores around here.
I have never seen the word used in any form of put down in this forum and I can not see the point in importing prejudices because schadenfreuders in other forums us it in a bad way.
We have lost gay and flamboyant to that type of blinkered approach and I think that newbie is a wonderful word and will happily associate with all who choose to embrace it in the spirit of the use of newbie in this forum.

.,,


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## geve

It's possible that the term isn't condescending by definition, but that some might perceive some condescencion  especially here where so many cultures and languages meet, and where actual newbies to forums in general seem to be more numerous than elsewhere (this is not meant to be condescending, I was a forum virgin myself before WR).

I discovered the word on this forum (and not that long ago, too). Because of the ending -bie I had thought of it as a sort of diminutive/endearment term (not that I had given it too much thought really)... So I can see that it could be found patronizing if it appears on "official" material such as stickies or rules.


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## cuchuflete

Many newbies announce their arrival here just as TrentinaNE did, by calling attention to themselves as newbies.

Either we attract a particularly masochistic bunch of foreros, or the term is not negative.

Context, as always, is a good indicator of intentions.  If the word is used in a desparaging way, that would be emphasized by the surrounding text.  Lack of any negatives directed at recent arrivals should also make clear that the word is not used to insult or diminish.


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## _forumuser_

. said:


> I used 'newbie' as a self descriptive to explain my lack of understanding of the mores around here.


 



TrentinaNE said:


> I believe my very first post at WRF started out "Ciao, newbie here."


 



cuchuflete said:


> Many newbies announce their arrival here just as TrentinaNE did, by calling attention to themselves as newbies.


 
Proponents of the self-use argument please read my post #8 above. There is a huge difference if I use newbie to describe myself or if others use it to welcome me. This by the way is a characteristic of more or less offensive words in general: there is an obvious difference between calling myself an idiot, which I do fairly regularly, and being called so by others.



. said:


> I am totally tired of politically correct speech and implied criticism.
> This forum has a culture of newbie use and I am quite comfortable with it.
> 
> .,,


 
Can we try not to call a bigot anyone who responds to words differently from us? You are free to disagree but allow me to find the word newbie unfriendly without letting out on me your resentment against someone else’s abuses of political correctness. Diminutives can be terms of endearment or mockery depending on the situation. The word newbie was coined as a term of mockery in highly insular environments (the army, sports, competitive games) where mocking outsiders (including newcomers) is an established way to build comradeship among members. I think it retains a vestige of its origins. 

EDIT: I see the word has been removed from the stickies. What can I say, I apologize to those who felt strongly for the word but I think it is a nice gesture toward new members. Peace.


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## .   1

_forumuser_ said:


> Can we try not to call a bigot anyone who responds to words differently from us? You are free to disagree but allow me to find the word newbie unfriendly without letting out on me your resentment against someone else’s abuses of political correctness.


Bigot is a short sharp and ugly word.  Please feel free to hit me in the face with a brick for each time I have used the word against you.
May I ask you to benefit from your own advice.
I did not quote you and I did not name you but you chose to quote me and engage me with a most provocative accusation.
If you think that my barb was too close to your bone then that is your problem but it may also reveal that the point I made was not that shatteringly incorrect.
You come on and make a complaint about being offended by the use of the word 'newbie' request a change of practice for something that has been operating quite smoothly and your only example is something that happened in places other than here and when I say that I am comfortable with the word and that I am tired of political correctness you feel free to accuse me of calling you a bigot.
Your comments have been duely noted and I do not for one moment think that you are guilty of being a ... newbie.

.,,


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## Trina

_forumuser_ said:


> [...]Proponents of the self-use argument please read my post #8 above. There is a huge difference if I use newbie to describe myself or if others use it to welcome me. This by the way is a characteristic of more or less offensive words in general: there is an obvious difference between calling myself an idiot, which I do fairly regularly, and being called so by others.[...]



This is akin to... it's okay to call others "black-fellas" if I am also a "black-fella" but no "white-fella" better dare try it.
This has always seemed a strange rule to me, yet it seems to be the norm all over the world.

As a "senior newbie" here, I really have never given the word "newbie" much thought, (Incidentally, WR  is my first and only forum experience) until this thread.
I have to admit, I have mixed feelings. The word doesn't worry me per se but I can understand it having negative connotations to some. 
I think, perhaps, it is more to do with the way the word is used, the context it is in as well as the perception of the meaning by others.
The words "pretty", "attractive",  could be considered insulting to someone applying for a managerial role where they would like to be noticed for their brain not looks. It is all to do with context.


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## cuchuflete

There is probably no word in any language that cannot, under the right or wrong circumstances, and in the head of a few readers, give offense.  If we were to satisfy each and every politically correct complaint, we could probably reduce all sticky messages to a vocabulary of not more than fifty words.  Still, someone would take offense.

The good news, if there is any in this matter, is that most forum members demonstrate by their actions that they have not read the stickies.  By that perverse twist, the population of the potentially offended is constrained.

A handful of people in this thread have stated that they thought the word newbie might be or is offensive.  Another handful said the opposite.  That is inconclusive proof that words are loaded differently by and for different writers and different readers.


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## cuchuflete

_forumuser_ said:


> Proponents of the self-use argument please read my post #8 above. There is a huge difference if I use newbie to describe myself or if others use it to welcome me. This by the way is a characteristic of more or less offensive words in general: there is an obvious difference between calling myself an idiot, which I do fairly regularly, and being called so by others.



The logic of this statement, as applied to the word "newbie" falls apart quickly unless and until one has already decided that the word is "more or less offensive".  For those of use who do not find it at all offensive, the analogy is false and misleading.  
 



> Can we try not to call a bigot anyone who responds to words differently from us? You are free to disagree but allow me to find the word newbie unfriendly without letting out on me your resentment against someone else’s abuses of political correctness. Diminutives can be terms of endearment or mockery depending on the situation. The word newbie was coined as a term of mockery in highly insular environments (the army, sports, competitive games) where mocking outsiders (including newcomers) is an established way to build comradeship among members. I think it retains a vestige of its origins.


  Thank you for the unsubstantiated attempt at etymology.  If it were correct, that would be an interesting historical footnote only, unless we had strong reason to believe that the meaning had not evolved since the origin of the term.  Multiple dictionary definitions strongly suggest that current usage has nothing to do with that of the proposed etymology.


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## .   1

_forumuser_ said:


> The word newbie was coined as a term of mockery in highly insular environments (the army, sports, competitive games) where mocking outsiders (including newcomers) is an established way to build comradeship among members. I think it retains a vestige of its origins.


Do you have a source for this.
I spent 15 years in the armed services and competed in many different levels of competitive sports and never once heard the term.
We had terms of mockery for outsiders and recruits but newbie did not exist.

A quick squiz of the net reveals a claim that it originated in 1993 or 1994 as a noun meaning;
One that is new to something, especially a novice at using computer technology or the Internet.

*There is no reference to newbie being considered to be derrogatory.*

My only experience with newbie is on the internet.
When I speak with my computer technican I say that I am a novice with the software. I would never consider describing myself as a newbie in any context other than as a forum user or when I was actually within the software that I am a novice at installing but a newbie at operating.
Novice is not necessarily demeaning but I suppose that novice could be seen as being a put down if your logic is employed.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

Here are a number of additional viewpoints, with nothing to suggest the term is offensive.




> Definitions of *newbie* on the Web:
> Slang for someone who is new to the Internet or a specific aspect of it.
> www.education-world.com/help/glossary.shtml
> 
> A network newcomer, one who is new to the world of online communications.
> www.netdictionary.com/n.html
> 
> a new writer.
> www.writefromhome.com/writingtradearticles/197.htm
> 
> A term to describe anyone new to an area, whether it be a particular forum online or the Internet.
> www.expedite-email-marketing.com/internet_marketing_glossary_internetmarketingtermsdefinition.htm[/SIZE]
> 
> A person new to online systems who is thus unlikely to be familiar with the norms, conventions and general netiquette of CMC.
> teladesign.com/ma-thesis/glossary.html
> 
> An Internet newcomer. Someone who is inexperienced with computers or the Net.
> www.rtnda.org/resources/wiredweb/appendixd.html
> 
> A novice player who has yet to learn much about the game.
> www.execulink.com/~robin1/ga_gloss.html
> 
> An individual lacking the knowledge of application functions. Someone who has little or no knowledge of computer programs.
> www.c7.ca/glossary/
> 
> American slang for a person who has just discovered something. In the context of anime and manga, a newbie is an enthusiastic new fan that has viewed primarily American produced dubs of anime and seen only English translated manga.
> www.theblackmoon.com/Gloss/agloss2.html
> 
> a new, inexperienced player in an online multi-player game.
> www.opensorcery.net/mutation/glossary.html
> 
> A new user on the Internet.
> www.horizonmedia.com/glossary/n.htm
> 
> Someone who is new to the Web, a newsgroup or email, or any other application.
> www.c-latitude.com/glossary.asp
> 
> A newcomer to the Internet or to an online service. *This term surfaced in the newsgroup talk.bizarre but is now in wide use, originally from British public-school and military slang variant of "new boy".*
> www.uta.edu/infosys/e_comm/terms/term_n.htm
> 
> A new user of the Internet, computer, discussion board, etc.
> adultchamber.com/members/glossary.htm
> 
> An individual that is new to internet usage and generally full of questions.
> www.webwonderdesign.com/gloss.htm
> 
> A newcomer or novice in almost any field, in this context, to computers and the Internet.
> www.scotsmist.co.uk/glossary_n.html
> 
> In web lingo, this is a newcomer to a particular group, forum, or discussion board.
> www.satellite-tv-hq.com/telecom-glossary-n.htm
> 
> Slang term for a beginning Web or computer user.
> www.metromemetics.com/thelexicon/n.asp
> 
> A player new to mobile games.
> www.t-zones.co.uk/en/Getting_started/what_can_iget_to_my_phone/start_gaming/jargon_busting.html
> 
> Any fan that is new to a fandom or list.
> expressions.populli.net/dictionary.html
> 
> Any player who is new to the role playing and/or Play By E-Mail experience.
> www.geocities.com/keltic_corman/terminology.html
> 
> any person with less time in Vietnam than the speaker
> www.duprel.com/usmcgeocitiespaid/militaryterms.html
> 
> newcomer: any new participant in some activity
> wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
> 
> A newbie (also spelled noob, newb, or n00b in the leetspeak of internet culture) is a to a particular field, the term being commonly used on the internet, where it might refer to new users of a game, a newsgroup, the World Wide Web itself, or an operating system.
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie
> 
> Definitions of *newbie* on the Web in Spanish:
> 
> 
> Generalmente, el término informal newbie se aplica a un principiante que ingresa a un campo de actividad complejo o sistemático. Específicamente se le aplica un principiante que se adentra a un campo de la computación, aunque últimamente la palabra se ha extendido para también incluir a usuarios de internet de prominente práctica pero de corto conocimiento técnico.
> es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie
> 
> 
> Nuevo usuario de Internet.
> www.juntaex.es/consejerias/ect/dgsi/proyectosi/docs/Glosario.htm
> 
> Principiante o novato en Internet.
> www.marketing-xxi.com/glosario-de-terminos-de-marketing-en-internet-149.htm
> 
> Alguien nuevo en Internet, o en el mundo de los ordenadores, en general.
> www.servitel.es/atv/AYU/INTERNET/DICCIO/diccio.htm
> 
> persona recién incorporada al uso de las aplicaciones de Internet. Hay que ser razonablemente pacientes y comprensivos con ellos porque todos hemos sido newbies alguna vez.
> www.marcelopedra.com.ar/glosario_N.htm
> 
> Es el nombre que los internautas dan a los recién ingresados a la red.
> usuarios.lycos.es/dachiardi/pagina_n2.htm


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## Hockey13

Cuchu, I agree with FU. Before I found this thread, it always struck me as a bit odd that that word would be used. It's not so egregious of an offense, really, but the term "newbie" evokes the spirit of the term "n00b" which is meant to detract from the person's skills and the value of their input. I think this is subtle, but FU has a point. These days, "n00bs" are confronted as being inferior in many places on the internet, even if they are not here. As with many other terms in the past, this one seems to have at least been slightly bastardized by the WoW-types out there.

That is, of course, just my opinion. Keeping the term by no means offends me at all.


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## _forumuser_

All,

I opened this thread in the interest of the forum. I think that if some people have found the word newbie engraved on the door as they entered at all intimidating, then we should consider finding an alternative. I do not wish to convince everyone I am right and I don't mind receiving any number of divergent opinions. But I do mind if the usefulness or legitimacy of my simple assertion is questioned.

My problem is not with the word newbie per se, although I may have given that impression. Re-reading my previous posts, I admit it does seem that I have been arguing against using the word, which was never my point. I apologize for taking the thread off-topic.  

It is flaunting differences between experienced and inexperienced members that I find unnecessary and ultimately detrimental to the forum. Replacing it with a term that emphasizes recent association over lack of experience does seem reasonable to me.


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## cuchuflete

Thanks for the added thoughts, _forumuser_.  Suggestions for an alternate term are welcome.

I've reviewed all the guidelines, rules, announcements, stickies, etc. I've ever posted here, and I never used the word "newbie" in any of them, as far as I can see.  Perhaps that's because I see no need for any distinction among forum members based on longevity or volume.   We do keep titles that identify newer members, and that is intended to let all foreros and mods be more helpful and even forgiving towards newer members.  

What about "Junior member" instead of 'newbie'?


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## TrentinaNE

As DesertCat mentioned above, the IT-EN forums have, for a few months now, had a couple of stickies that contain the word "Newbie" because the need for them was prompted by a spate of related inquiries by new posters.  But on reflection after reading this thread, it struck me that the substance of those stickies is pertinent to all users, and that there's no need to direct them to "newbies" in particular.  I've changed the sticky titles accordingly.  

Elisabetta


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## .   1

_forumuser_ said:


> It is flaunting differences between experienced and inexperienced members that I find unnecessary and ultimately detrimental to the forum. Replacing it with a term that emphasizes recent association over lack of experience does seem reasonable to me.


What difference will changing the word make?
Newbie = novice = junior user.
What difference wll changing the name make?
There is still a difference between newbies and oldbies.
Oldbies often become so experienced with the rather tight rules of this forum that they are able to call a spade a bloody shovel and get away with it.
I will confess that I often check the number of posts when responding to a contentious thread in the Cultural forum or a smart arsed thread in the English forum and I have noticed a staggering number of stupifyingly innnane mind blowingly provocative threads started by newbies with less than five posts.
I will allow a newbie to sound rude and impatient where I will brush an oldbie for the same offence.
It takes some time to fit in here. This place is not a chat room and is very proactive in maintaining this chat room free status. This is confronting for many newbies but newbies are allowed some slack whereas persistent oldbie offenders are banned.
This place has thousands of members and it is not possible to know each one individually but I am always willing to try just a little harder for a person that I know has already contributed in some way to the running of this place.
I am sad that newbie has been tarnished as a word but I suspect that it will survive this little brouhaha.

.,,
There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.


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## Hockey13

Perhaps new user? I think that sounds pretty neutral. Or, of course, we can just keep the (now) current "read this before posting" business. Elisabetta proved herself, again, to be quite a damn capable moderator by fixing this problem right away. Clearly some people see it is confrontational, and she recognized it and removed the word. Fantastic!! Case closed, I guess.


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## _forumuser_

cuchuflete said:


> What about "Junior member" instead of 'newbie'?


 
Junior member, new member, new user, dear ... newbies?? 



. said:


> There is still a difference between newbies and oldbies.


 
I agree, but there are also differences in how different groups view and/or talk about this difference. See the difference?  

I want to thank everybody for sharing their views with me on this. As often on this forum, I have learned much.

_fu_


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## cuchuflete

Hockey13 said:


> Perhaps new user? I think that sounds pretty neutral. Or, of course, we can just keep the (now) current "read this before posting" business. Elisabetta proved herself, again, to be quite a damn capable moderator by fixing this problem right away. _Clearly some people see it is confrontational, and she recognized it and removed the word._ Fantastic!! Case closed, I guess.



Not meaning to be 'confrontational', you have declared victory and left the scene of battle, but with a twisted interpretation.  Elisabetta 'fixed the problem' by recognizing that the sticky text applied to all members, and for that reason edited the messages.  

That a handful of people have declared a word to be potentially offensive does not establish that the word is offensive.  There are a couple of dozen definitions provided that all stress newness, recent arrival, status as a novice.  Nearly any word might be used in a negative way, but there is nothing inherently negative about the word 'newbie'.  It is descriptive of status.  

Many newbies in these forums display the characteristics of people who are new to any setting or task.  They take a while to get adjusted to the 'local conventions'.  They may need extra help.  Just like those other potentially offensive words, traveler, tourist, visitor, student, learner, beginner, "newbie" does not carry a negative tone, but may be used to imply what the writer or speaker has in mind.  

Case closed?  Maybe.  

I suggest that further discussion of the word "newbie" belongs in the English Only Forum, where we can pick it apart, study its etymology and current usage, cite google incidences of it in combination with "positive" and "negative" adjectives, and whatever else it merits.


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