# I don't watch/I never watched



## piraña utria

Good evening my friends.

First of all I beg your pardon in advance because my English grammar book is a Spanish version of Woods’ _English Grammar for Dummies_ and it’s easier to me avoid the precise verb tense’s names.

I had a rough discussion about this topic with my conversation tutor. He was arguing that I can say in order to express my permanent feeling or behavior so to speak about a precise TV show and so on, both of next sentences:

“I _don’t watch Fox News_”.

“_I never watched Fox News_”.

Is it correct the second one in this precise case? Probably is because I’m comparing it with the Spanish rules but from my own point it has no sense to show this sort of message.

Thanks in advance for your answers.


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## envie de voyager

“I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
This indicates that you are making a decision to not watch Fox news.

“_I never watch Fox News_”.
This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it.

“_I'*ve* never watched Fox News_”.
This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it, or it could indicate that you just have not had the chance to see it yet.


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## piraña utria

envie de voyager said:


> “I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
> This indicates that you are making a decision to not watch Fox news.
> 
> “_I never watch Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it.
> 
> “_I'*ve* never watched Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it, or it could indicate that you just have not had the chance to see it yet.


 
Hi Envie. 

What about my second example which doesn't contain "to have"?

Thanks for share your time,


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## Thomas Tompion

And I never watched Fox News is fine to explain your habitual behaviour in the past.

Five years ago I never watched Fox News -  i.e. Five years ago I never used to watch Fox News.


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## envie de voyager

"I never watched Fox news" would be an answer to a question about the past. For example:

a) Last week, the news channels were free on cable television.  Did you see all of them?
b) I saw most of them, but _I never watched fox news._

It does not indicate why you didn't see it, just that you did not.


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## piraña utria

Hi again guys.

I've noticed that I was quite right about this topic.Thanks a lot for your so-elaborated answers.

Regards,


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## Nymeria

envie de voyager said:


> “I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
> This indicates that you are making a decision to not watch Fox news.
> 
> “_I never watch Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it.
> 
> “_I'*ve* never watched Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it, or it could indicate that you just have not had the chance to see it yet.



Isn't it more accurate to say that it indicates you *have **m**ade *a decision not to watch it? "You are making" makes it sound like you are now trying to make up your mind whether or not to continue watching it. That isn't what those first two sentences indicate.


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## Nymeria

Thomas Tompion said:


> And I never watched Fox News is fine to explain your habitual behaviour in the past.
> 
> Five years ago I never watched Fox News -  i.e. Five years ago I never used to watch Fox News.



"I never watched Fox news" means, to me, "I never watched Fox news in my life, including now." In that sense, I don't see it only as an answer to a question about the past.


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## Franzi

Nymeria said:


> "I never watched Fox news" means, to me, "I never watched Fox news in my life, including now." In that sense, I don't see it only as an answer to a question about the past.



Is this an AE/BE difference?  For me, "I never watched it" can only be about the past.  A statement about my whole life up till now must be: "I've never watched it."


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## Nymeria

I wouldn't feel the need to include the "have" (as in I'*ve* never), because the word never, by definition, is absolute. It means "not ever" so that means that I can't ever have watched it in my life.

Also in this example given by envie in post #5

a) Last week, the news channels were free on cable television.  Did you see all of them?
b) I saw most of them, but _I never watched fox news.
_
I would not use "never" in sentence b). That doesn't make sense to me and it sounds awfully extreme. I would simply say, "I did not watch Fox news".


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## Thomas Tompion

Franzi said:


> Is this an AE/BE difference? For me, "I never watched it" can only be about the past. A statement about my whole life up till now must be: "I've never watched it."


 
I don't think so.  In my BE experience I've never heard anyone use the tenses other than as you've just described, Franzi (This sentence, to my BE ear, couldn't be *I never heard anyone use the tenses other than as you've just described*).


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## piraña utria

Good morning friends.

I’m a bit lost because of such terrific explanations.

Going backward my starting point, are both sentences correct to say, including the present, i.e. when I'm speaking, that I usually don’t watch Fox News? 

As I said before for me is not possible the second one in this context (_I never watched Fox News_) no matter what my tutor says, so I'd really appreciate if someone confirm or reject my thought.

Regards,


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## stephent74

envie de voyager said:


> “I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
> This indicates that you are making a decision to not watch Fox news.
> 
> “_I never watch Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it.
> 
> “_I'*ve* never watched Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it, or it could indicate that you just have not had the chance to see it yet.


 
Hi, this explanation makes me surprised. I know envie voyager must be right, but this is very different from what I've been taught, about the usage of  present simple tense.

My grammer book tells me that present simple tense indicates an action happens all the time--- as in '' water freezes at 32 Fahrenheit" 

So, if someone asks me " Do you watch Fox News?",  I would think he is asking me whether I have the habit of watching Fox News (everyday or maybe, just sometimes).

Then if I say " I don't watch Fox News" -- I'm just saying I did not watch it before this conversation, and I'm not going to watch it in the recent  future.  

If I try to make a decison to watch it or not, I'm inclined to say: I won't watch it. 

I expect a little more explanation from you.

Thanks.


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## Thomas Tompion

envie de voyager said:


> “I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
> This indicates that you are making a decision to not watch Fox news. - I'm surprised you say this: for me it's got nothing to do with a decision about the future, but is concerned with your present practice.
> 
> “_I never watch Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it. - ditto. Of course your present practice is probably the result of a decision, but the statement is about the practice.
> 
> “_I'*ve* never watched Fox News_”.
> This also indicates that you are making a decision to not watch it, or it could indicate that you just have not had the chance to see it yet. - I agree that can suggest quite a specialized use of_ I have not watched_ (to mean _it has been my considered practice not to watch_) but, again, the statement is only about the practice, to my ear; I also agree that it might mean that you have not had the opportunity of watching.


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## Franzi

piraña utria said:


> I’m a bit lost because of such terrific explanations.
> 
> Going backward my starting point, are both sentences correct to say, including the present, i.e. when I'm speaking, that I usually don’t watch Fox News?



It looks like not everyone answering entirely agrees about the answer.  Here are mine:

I don't watch Fox News.  --  As a general habit, I usually don't watch it.  (I may have seen it one or more times, but I don't have a habit of watching it.)

I never watched Fox News.  -- During some period of time in the past, I watched it zero times.

I've never watched Fox News. -- In my entire life, I have watched it zero times.


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## AskLang

Franzi said:


> It looks like not everyone answering entirely agrees about the answer. Here are mine:
> 
> I don't watch Fox News. -- As a general habit, I usually don't watch it. (I may have seen it one or more times, but I don't have a habit of watching it.)
> 
> I never watched Fox News. -- During some period of time in the past, I watched it zero times.
> 
> I've never watched Fox News. -- In my entire life, I have watched it zero times.


 
Franzi
But, is
I never watch Fox News 
idiomatic?
If so, what does it mean?


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## Loob

piraña utria said:


> Going backward my starting point, are both sentences correct to say, including the present, i.e. when I'm speaking, that I usually don’t watch Fox News?
> 
> As I said before for me is not possible the second one in this context (_I never watched Fox News_) no matter what my tutor says, so I'd really appreciate if someone confirm or reject my thought.


You are right and your tutor is wrong, piraña utria

To describe your present-day habit of not watching Fox News, you can say "I don't watch Fox News" and "I never watch Fox News", but not "I never watched Fox News".


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## Thomas Tompion

AskLang said:


> Franzi
> But, is
> I never watch Fox News
> idiomatic?
> If so, what does it mean?


 Yes, perfectly idiomatic.  It means As a general habit, I don't watch it. (I may have seen it one or more times, but I make a point of not watching it now.)


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> You are right and your tutor is wrong, piraña utria
> 
> To describe your present-day habit of not watching Fox News, you can say "I don't watch Fox News" and "I never watch Fox News", but not "I never watched Fox News".


 We're in trouble again, Loob.

All the time I was in the United States, I never watched Fox News.  I'm afraid I could easily say that.


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## Loob

I said "*present-day* habit", TT...

For a past habit, I could certainly say "I never watched Fox News"


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> I said "*present-day* habit", TT...
> 
> For a past habit, I could certainly say "I never watched Fox News"


As usual, we sing from the same songsheet.  I'm happy again.  I'm sorry; I should have got my ducks more in order.


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## Nymeria

I never watched Fox news.
  I have never watched Fox news.

  The reason the two are interchangeable, in my view, is because of the word "never". To me never is never is never. Period.

If I look at a person and say, "I never ate an apple", I really don't see how else that could be interpreted other than ... well ... "I never ate an apple". So whether distant past, or up to three seconds ago, an apple never crossed these lips in my lifetime. Ever.

  If I say, “I have never eaten an apple”, the same reasoning applies. It means just what I said, “I have never eaten an apple.” An apple has never crossed these in lips in my lifetime. Ever.

  “Never” , used by itself, doesn’t mean “ate a couple apples now and then”, or “didn’t eat them in the past but now do”. It means never.

  If I wanted to express that I never ate apples as a child but now I do, the sentence would continue on to express just that.

  “I never ate apples as a child, but now I eat them.”


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## AskLang

Thanks Thom,
It's all clear to me now. .


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## AskLang

But Nymeria,
Can we not say
I've never eaten an apple until now ?
Thanks


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## Nymeria

Yes you may, AskLang.

1) "I've never eaten an apple" is different from 
2) "I've never eaten an apple, until now."

The second sentence continues on to further explain and express the idea that an apple is now being eaten, although none was eaten in the past.

In the first sentence, the never is left as is, and simply means that the person never ate an apple. Ever.


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## Thomas Tompion

Nymeria said:


> I never watched Fox news.
> I have never watched Fox news.
> 
> The reason the two are interchangeable, in my view, is because of the word "never". To me never is never is never. Period.
> [...]


 
I'm afraid I don't agree, Nymeria.

For me they are not interchangeable. Let's try interchanging them.

For me: 1. In the United States I never watched Fox News means something other than 2. In the United States I have never watched Fox News.

I'd be surprised in any BE speaking person didn't differentiate sharply between the two, and that would mean they weren't interchangeable in BE, as I hold. I know that AE uses the incident tenses in the past differently from BE. Do those two sentences have the same meaning for you?


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## Nymeria

Thomas Tompion, I didn't say the sentences *YOU *gave were interchangeable, I said the sentences *I *gave were interchangeable.  Your sentences contain additional information about a time in the United States (presumably in the past), hence it's not the same. I probably wouldn't say your sentence 2) in normal speech cause it sounds rather wonky.

I would however use the sentences:

I never watched Fox news. (full stop, as is, no additional information)
I have never watched Fox news. (full stop, as is, no additional information)

interchangeably because I don't see a real difference between the two.


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## Thomas Tompion

Nymeria said:


> Thomas Tompion, I didn't say the sentences *YOU *gave were interchangeable, I said the sentences *I *gave were interchangeable.  Your sentences contain additional information about a time in the United States (presumably in the past), hence it's not the same. I probably wouldn't say your sentence 2) in normal speech cause it sounds rather wonky.
> 
> I would however use the sentences:
> 
> I never watched Fox news. (full stop, as is, no additional information)
> I have never watched Fox news. (full stop, as is, no additional information)
> 
> interchangeably because I don't see a real difference between the two.


Ah! I took interchangeable to mean that one could interchange them without altering the meaning of a sentence. I didn't alter your words or the order in which you put them.

If we are to consider whether they are synonymous when standing alone, then I suspect we are up against the AE/BE difference I mentioned earler, and which has been often remarked upon in these threads. I'm surprised, nevertheless to learn that in AE they are used in identical situations.  The fact that by applying the same adverbial phrase of place to both you can cause them to take on different meanings suggests otherwise, but I'm open to persuasion.


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## sound shift

I'm with Thomas. If I have never in my life watched Fox News and someone asked me, "Did you watch Fox News last night?" I would answer, "No, I didn't."
I might go on to say "I don't watch it" or "I have never watched it", but not "I never watched it".


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## Nymeria

But what's the difference between mine TT? I really am at a loss as to how else never having done something can be interpreted other than as never having done something!


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## Franzi

AskLang said:


> Franzi
> But, is
> I never watch Fox News
> idiomatic?
> If so, what does it mean?


 
For me, "I never watch Fox News!" is just the emphatic form of "I don't watch Fox News."  Both indicate that it is my habit to not watch it.


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## AskLang

Do I have the right understanding that
I never watched Fox News is not in itself a complete sentence?
Thanks


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## Franzi

Nymeria said:


> But what's the difference between mine TT? I really am at a loss as to how else never having done something can be interpreted other than as never having done something!


 
We're saying that you need to use a perfect tense to get the meaning you're describing... for which you just used a perfect tense!


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## Thomas Tompion

Nymeria said:


> But what's the difference between mine TT? I really am at a loss as to how else never having done something can be interpreted other than as never having done something!


 
But never can apply to a single incident. I never did it is what a child might say when accused of something naughty; it's an emphatic form of I didn't do it. It's different from I have never done it, which is a much more blanket denial.

Your suggestion, Nymeria, of an absolute never applying infinitely into the past flies in the face of the way the word is frequently used, in my view.


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## Franzi

AskLang said:


> Do I have the right understanding that
> I never watched Fox News is not in itself a complete sentence?
> Thanks


 
It's a complete sentence, but it doesn't make sense out of context.  It would be fine if the preceeding sentence clearly indicated what time period it was referring to:

"I stayed in the US for three years.  I never watched Fox News."


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## Thomas Tompion

AskLang said:


> Do I have the right understanding that
> I never watched Fox News is not in itself a complete sentence?
> Thanks


No, you don't, I'm afraid, AskLang.

A. Which programmes did you watch on TV when you were in the States?
B. I never watched Fox News.

could easily be part of an entirely idiomatic and grammatical conversation in BE.


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## Franzi

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm surprised, nevertheless to learn that in AE they are used in identical situations.


 
Well, _this _AE speaker thinks that they are absolutely not used in the same situation and absolutely do not mean the same thing.  If it's a regional difference, it's on a more local level than just AE vs. BE.


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## AskLang

Ok, thanks Thom and Franzi
That really makes sense . .


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## Nymeria

I guess that's why context is so important then TT. There are some occasions when I have heard "never" used to stress "didn't" (interestingly enough when gossip is involved i.e. "I never said she was a ugly"). But then it still is a bit tricky cause I would still tend to think the speaker meant, "Never once did I ever say she was ugly" which seems quite absolute. But I can see the argument for "didn't".

But in general conversation, something as simple as having watched a TV show, I would never think that never meant just that one time. If you said to me, "I never watched Fox news" I would not think of it as a one-time thing, I would think of it as blanket statement for all time.


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## Cagey

I have been puzzling over this response to Nymeria.



Thomas Tompion said:


> ....If we are to consider whether they are synonymous when standing alone, then I suspect we are up against the AE/BE difference I mentioned earler, and which has been often remarked upon in these threads. I'm surprised, nevertheless to learn that in AE they are used in identical situations. ....



Nymeria describes herself as a speaker of BE and is in Barbados.  You seem to be taking her as a representative speaker of AmE.  On the other hand, Franzi, who is a speaker of AmE, seems to me be using the tenses as you do.  Am I missing something?


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## Franzi

Nymeria said:


> "I never said she was a ugly"
> 
> But then it still is a bit tricky cause I would still tend to think the speaker meant, "Never once did I ever say she was ugly" which seems quite absolute. But I can see the argument for "didn't".


 
I would usually interpret that statement as "I didn't say she was ugly on that occasion you just mentioned."


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## Loob

Franzi said:


> Well, _this _AE speaker thinks that they are absolutely not used in the same situation and absolutely do not mean the same thing. If it's a regional difference, it's on a more local level than just AE vs. BE.


Yes, that could well be the answer, as Nymeria is Barbadian


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## johndot

This theme has had many previous threads—check out ‘simple past vs present perfect’.

What I believe is this: ‘never’, being a period of time, cannot be used with a tense which requires time-specific information: how can you possibly have done something at ‘no time’ when you are simultaneously saying what the time was when you didn’t do it?

As far as I’m concerned, ‘never’ can be used with the future perfect, the future, the present, the present perfect and the pluperfect—but never _ever_ with the simple past. It’s just the way I was drug up!


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## Thomas Tompion

johndot said:


> This theme has had many previous threads—check out ‘simple past vs present perfect’.
> 
> What I believe is this: ‘never’, being a period of time, cannot be used with a tense which requires time-specific information: how can you possibly have done something at ‘no time’ when you are simultaneously saying what the time was when you didn’t do it?
> 
> As far as I’m concerned, ‘never’ can be used with the future perfect, the future, the present, the present perfect and the pluperfect—but never _ever_ with the simple past. It’s just the way I was drug up!


So you can't say I never heard what you said, John?  I find that more than odd.


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## mirx

Thomas Tompion said:


> So you can't say I never heard what you said, John? I find that more than odd.


 
Yes, you can, especially as an excuse for not having done something.

And no, this isn't a simple past vs present perfect thread.

The original question was "simple present vs simple past" to indicate a general habit in the present.

Piraña, 



> “I _don’t watch Fox News_”.
> 
> “_I never watch*ed* Fox News_”., perhaps your tutor meant "_I never watch Fox News_", which is also correct for a general habit nowadays.


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## piraña utria

mirx said:


> Yes, you can, especially as an excuse for not having done something.
> 
> And no, this isn't a simple past vs present perfect thread.
> 
> The original question was "simple present vs simple past" to indicate a general habit in the present.
> 
> Piraña,


 
Dear Mirx.

Your thought is as clever as usual. However I’m pretty sure what I've listened. In fact, I’ve confirmed previously his point with this person and obviously that’s the reason why I’ve asked to this concrete Forum.

This guy has written the second sentence either due to the slight nuance, in speaking terms I mean, between “I’ve …watched” and “I..watch”.

Regards,


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## kalamazoo

You can say that you 'never did' something that is no longer currently possible for you to do. "I never saw John F. Kennedy" or "I never saw Pope John XXIII' are perfectly okay sentences in my opinion.  However, "I never saw Bill Clinton" would be a strange sentence.


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## Thomas Tompion

kalamazoo said:


> You can say that you 'never did' something that is no longer currently possible for you to do. "I never saw John F. Kennedy" or "I never saw Pope John XXIII' are perfectly okay sentences in my opinion. However, "I never saw Bill Clinton" would be a strange sentence.


Would you allow I never saw Bill Clinton wearing a hat during his presidency? We could easily say that in BE, if it was true.


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## kalamazoo

Yes, to my mind that would be just another example of the same principle, because it is no longer possible for you to see Bill Clinton during his presidency.   But you can still watch Fox News, so "I never watched Fox News" is an odd sentence.


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## Thomas Tompion

kalamazoo said:


> Yes, to my mind that would be just another example of the same principle, because it is no longer possible for you to see Bill Clinton during his presidency. But you can still watch Fox News, so "I never watched Fox News" is an odd sentence.


I'm still not sure. Are you saying that these sentences are not common currency in AE? or that they offend in some way your sense of linguistic logic? or both, perhaps?


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## Nymeria

kalamazoo said:


> You can say that you 'never did' something that is no longer currently possible for you to do. "I never saw John F. Kennedy" or "I never saw Pope John XXIII' are perfectly okay sentences in my opinion.  However, "I never saw Bill Clinton" would be a strange sentence.



And the differences keep rolling in! 

For me, being currently able to do something, or not being able to do something has *nothing *to do with my decision to use the word "never".

For example, I would VERY easily say, "I never met Celine Dion in person." That does not sound strange at all to me and it makes no difference whether Celine is still around or I could conceivably meet her in person in the future. The point is that I never saw in her in person up to this point in my life. Hence, to express that, I would say, "I never met Celine Dion in person."


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## kalamazoo

I think it's fine in AE to say "I never saw Bill Clinton wearing a hat during his presidency."  However to me a sentence like "I never watched Fox News" isn't correct unless you add some kind of qualifier, like "I never watched Fox News when I lived in Cincinnati."


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## Forero

"I never watched Fox News" does not say anything about anything permanent.  It only says something about the past.
"I have never watched Fox News" also says nothing about anything permanent.  It only says something about the reflection of the past on the present.
"I don't watch Fox News" is about the broad present but not the future.  It suggests but does not say that I never watch Fox News.  It says that Fox News is not what I choose to watch.
"I never watch Fox News" is also about the broad present only.  It means that I don't even watch Fox News when I am waiting to see a specialist and "Fox News" in on in the waiting room and everyone else is watching it.


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