# Persian: sizdah/سيزده/thirteen



## PersoLatin

The formal pronunciation of no 13 is 'sizdah', I have also heard some pronounced it 'sinzdah', i.e. with an additional n, and recently someone insisted that this is also correct, though less common, I'd like to know if that's the case?

You will notice a similar 'additional' n, in numbers pânzdah/15 & šânzdah/16.


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## farasso0

راستش من سینزده رو فقط از آدمهای کم سواد یا کسایی که نمی تونند فارسی رسمی کشور رو درست صحبت کنند شنیدم. بعضی ها هم بعد از نون، دال اضافه می کنند.
مثلا به جای سن می گن سند


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## Treaty

The 'n' in 15 is a part of the original (from 'n' in pa*n*j), however, the 'n' in 13, 16 (Mid. Pers. _šāzdah_) and 19 are apparently added later (maybe to resemble 15?). Of these, only 16 has become standard.


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## PersoLatin

farasso0 said:


> راستش من سینزده رو فقط از آدمهای کم سواد یا کسایی که نمی تونند فارسی رسمی کشور رو درست صحبت کنند شنیدم


I believe there's more to it than just mispronunciation.


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## farasso0

PersoLatin said:


> I believe there's more to it than just mispronunciation.


بله مطمئنا قدیمی ها بیشتر استفاده می کردند چون الان خیلی به ندرت شنیده میشه. حداقل از موقعی که من یادم میاد یه تلفظ غیرطبیعی بوده.


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## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> the 'n' in 13, 16 (Mid. Pers. _šāzdah_) and 19 are apparently added later


There no /n/ in نوزده-nuzdah, are we saying there's also a نونزده - nunzdah?



Treaty said:


> The 'n' in 15 is a part of the original (from 'n' in pa*n*j), however, the 'n' in 13, 16 (Mid. Pers. _šāzdah_) and 19 are apparently added later (*maybe to resemble 15*?). Of these, only 16 has become standard.


Yes there's something in that, but I think pânzdah, ŝânzdah may have copied the pattern from yâzdah, davâzdah (doâzdah), sizdah, and nuzdah which require /z/ to act as liaison when 'dah' is attached to yek (there's an old version of 'one' without k), do, sé and noh (soft h).


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## PersoLatin

farasso0 said:


> له مطمئنا قدیمی ها بیشتر استفاده می کردند چون الان خیلی به ندرت شنیده میشه. حداقل از موقعی که من یادم میاد یه تلفظ غیرطبیعی بوده


دقیقاً برداشت من هم همین بود، ولی اخیرا در ایرا ن در یک گردهمایی ،‏ یک نویسنده  در گروه برداشت دیگری داشت ولی وقت برای بحث بیشتر نبود، برای همین در این فوروم سؤال رو مطرح کردم۔


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## farasso0

PersoLatin said:


> دقیقاً برداشت من هم همین بود، ولی اخیرا در ایرا ن در یک گردهمایی ،‏ یک نویسنده  در گروه برداشت دیگری داشت ولی وقت برای بحث بیشتر نبود، برای همین در این فوروم سؤال رو مطرح کردم۔


ببخشید من فکر کردم می خواید بدونید هنوز توی ایران استفاده می شه یا نه. مثل اینکه سوالتون رو درست متوجه نشدم. به هر حال فکر می کنم زبان بیشتر به سمت ساده شدن پیش می ره تا خلافش.


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## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> There no /n/ in نوزده-nuzdah, are we saying there's also a نونزده - nunzdah?


Yep. I have heard a few people using it.


PersoLatin said:


> Yes there's something in that, but I think pânzdah, ŝânzdah may have copied the pattern from yâzdah, davâzdah (doâzdah), sizdah, and nuzdah which require /z/ to act as liaison when 'dah' is attached to yek (there's an old version of 'one' without k), do, sé and noh (soft h).


I don't know the etymology of the 'z' but I don't think it is a copy from that in yāzdah (Sanskrit and Eastern Iranian don't have that 'z' in neither eleven nor others, so I assume that 'z' appears in other Persian numbers for good etymological/morphological reasons). 

By the way, it is not that rare to drop 'd' (while keeping/putting 'n' or germinating 'z': نونزه، سینزه، سیزّه).


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## fdb

Some of this has been said by others, but it might be useful to tie it all up.

The numbers from 11 to 19 are very interesting in Persian, as they are in other Iranian languages.

Originally they would have been simple compounds of the words for the units plus the word for “ten”. This formation survives in čahārdah, haf(t)dah, haštdah (haždah).

The unetymological  -z- in yāzdah, duwāzdah, sēzdah, nōzdah is by analogy to the etymological -z- in pānzdah. For “sixteen” we need to imagine something like Iranian *xšwaš-dasa- > Middle Persian šāzdah > NP šānzdah (again by analogy to pānzdah).

Finally, the unetymological long -ā- in yāzdah, pānzdah, šā(n)zdah seems to be by analogy to the -ā- in duwāzdah, which is from the nominative dual *dwā, as also in Vedic dvādaśa.


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## PersoLatin

Thank you fdb.

In Persian & some IE languages, the numbers after twenty use ‘and’, e.g. ‘bist o yek’(21), ‘sad o si’(130), ‘vingt et un’, ‘einundzwanzig’. Is it possible that in Old Persian (& older Ir. languages), numbers 11-19 were formed the same way i.e. unit-and-ten, and this 'and' (e.g. dū-ud-dasa for 12) eventually was simplified to ‘z’ etc.?


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## fdb

No. Several of the teens occur in the Avesta. They are formed in the same way as in Sanskrit.  Anyway, *duwa+uta+daϑa would not explain the internal -z-.


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## molana

PersoLatin said:


> The formal pronunciation of no 13 is 'sizdah', I have also heard some pronounced it 'sinzdah', i.e. with an additional n, and recently someone insisted that this is also correct, though less common, I'd like to know if that's the case?
> 
> You will notice a similar 'additional' n, in numbers pânzdah/15 & šânzdah/16.


I'd already read somewhere the reason for this 'additional' ن in سینزده. And since you've opened this thread, I was trying to find the text but I failed. Here is what I remember:
''This 'additional' ن in سینزده makes it nasalized, and it is due to the consonant [z]. In other words, [z] paves the way for this 'additional' [n] in سینزده, and consequently, the nasalization of سینزده.''


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## Ethangale87

in Isfahani Accent people say sinzdah but in other location of the country people say sizdah


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## PersoLatin

Ethangale87 said:


> in Isfahani Accent people say sinzdah but in other location of the country people say sizdah


Yes, I knew a few people from the Esfehân region who pronounced it 'sinzdah', my uncle, from Tehran, also pronouncedit  that way and my dad (his brother) doesn't, so it's strange.


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## molana

شانزده is stably nasalized; the nasalized forms of سیزده and نوزده, i.e. سینزده and نونزده, may still be heard, rarely though; the nasalized forms of یازده and دوازده, i.e. یانزده and دوانزده, can be traced in Persian literature.


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