# Paul hit John at the store



## Nino83

Hello everyone.

Paul hit John at the store.
1) Nanuntok ni John si Paul sa tindahan.
2) Sinuntok ni Paul si John sa tindahan.
3) Pinagsuntokan *ni Paul ni John* ang tindahan.

Correct me if I made some mistake.

In sentences like 3), i.e when a locative "trigger" (pag-...-an) is used, both subject and object are marked with ng/ni.

How do you know who the subject is? Is word order important in these cases?

Thank you


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## DotterKat

Nino83 said:


> Paul hit John at the store.
> 1) Nanuntok ni John si Paul sa tindahan.


Incorrect.
The form _nanunto_k is used for common nouns.  If you want to use a proper noun as the unfocused object, like John, then you have to use _sinuntok_.
The correct sentence is _Si Paul ay nanuntok ng tao sa tindahan_. Paul hit a person at the store.
The marker _si_ makes Paul the focus of the sentence, the marker _ng_ points to the unfocused object tao. Nanuntok is the actor-focused completed aspect form of suntok, applied to unfocused objects that are linked to common nouns by the marker _ng_.



Nino83 said:


> 2) Sinuntok ni Paul si John sa tindahan.


This is the correct and most common way to translate _Paul hit John at the store_.

_Sinuntok_ is the object-focused completed aspect form of suntok.  _Ni_ marks Paul as the proper noun that is not the focus of the sentence.  Again, the marker _si_ points to the focus of the sentence which is John.

The English translation in the passive voice is a closer representation of the Tagalog object-focused text.
_Sinuntok ni Paul si John sa tindahan.  John was hit by Paul at the store_.
Who was hit by Paul at the store? John was hit by Paul at the store.
This translation simulates the original Tagalog text’s emphasis, or focus, on the person that was hit rather on the person who did the hitting.



Nino83 said:


> 3) Pinagsuntokan *ni Paul ni John* ang tindahan.


Incorrect.

1) Locative-focus verbs are not as commonly used in everyday speech as either actor- or object-focus verbs.
2) Locative-focus (LF) verbs point to the location of the action as the focus of the sentence.
3) To convert the sentence _Paul hit John at the store_ into a LF sentence in Tagalog, you will have to make store as the focus of the sentence, since it is the location where the hitting occurred.  All other nouns become unfocused objects.
4) The marker _ang_ is used to point to a common noun like tindhan as the focus of a sentence.
5) The marker _ni_ (or _nina_ for plural nouns) is used to point to unfocused objects.  In a sentence that is locative-focused,  the nouns that are not in focus are Paul and John. Remember, the focus in a _locative-focus sentence is the place where the action occurred and not the people doing the action._

The correct sentence is _Pinagsuntukan nina Paul at John ang tindahan.  The store was used as the place for hitting by Paul and John._

You can see that this last sentence is syntactically challenged and  does not accurately reflect the original _Paul hit John at the store_.  The English translation that would mimic a Tagalog locative-focus sentence is _The store was the place where Paul hit John_. However, any attempt to convert this to a locative-focus Tagalog sentence will result in grave semantic errors (Pinagsuntukan ni Paul si John ang tindahan — this sentence is wrong).  By definition, a LF sentence points to the place as the focus and therefore it is not possible to make either Paul or John the focus as well.



Nino83 said:


> How do you know who the subject is? Is word order important in these cases?


Remember, _ang_ marks a common noun as the focus of the sentence.  _Si_ (or _sina_ for the plural form) marks a proper noun as the focus of the sentence.
_Ng_ marks a common noun as the unfocused actor. _ Ni_ (or _nina_ for the plural form) marks a proper noun as the unfocused actor.
Syntax is critical for all cases.


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## Nino83

Thank you, Dotterkat.


DotterKat said:


> The form _nanunto_k is used for common nouns.


Ok. Let's make an example with _dala_ (bring).

Magdadala ng regalo sa bata ang ina.
Dadalhin ng ina sa bata ang regalo.
Dadalhan *ng ina ng regalo* ang bata.

source: Tagalog Reference Grammar (page 79)

In the third sentence (where there is the directional trigger) both the subject and the object have the same marker, _ng_.
In these cases is there some fixed order (actor before the object or object before the actor)?


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## DotterKat

Nino83 said:


> ....Dadalhan *ng ina ng regalo* ang bata.
> In the third sentence (where there is the directional trigger) both the subject and the object have the same marker, _ng_.
> In these cases is there some fixed order (actor before the object or object before the actor)?


First of all, the third sentence has a benefactive and not a directional trigger.

Next, either form is grammatically correct. However, having the actor come before the object produces a less syntactically ambiguous sentence. Thus, the sentence _Dadalhan ng ina ng regalo ang bata_ is the preferable form.

The alternative _Dadalhan ng regalo ng ina ang bata_ can cause a momentary pause in comprehension because the second _ng_ can be interpreted as an indicator of possession rather than the marker of the unfocused actor as it is intended to be.

_Dadalhan ng ina ng regalo ang bata_. The mother will bring a gift to the child. To more faithfully translate the benefactive-focus nature of this sentence we could say instead _The child will be brought a gift by the mother_.

_Dadalhan ng regalo ng ina ang bata_. Since we already have prior knowledge of the intended meaning (The mother will bring a gift to the child), it can be difficult to see that a possible interpretation of this is _The child will be brought the mother's gift_. Instead of the second _ng_ being understood as just another marker for the unfocused actor, it can now be possibly understood as a possession marker, that is, the _mother's gift_ to the child will be brought to that child by another person.

To render the sentence less ambiguous, separate the two unfocused nouns.
_Dadalhan ng ina ang bata ng regalo_. This sentence is syntactically clearer than the original _Dadalhan ng ina ng regalo ang bata_.
Similarly if the object is placed before the actor, the sentence is again somewhat ambiguous.
_Dadalhan ng regalo ang bata ng ina_.

Finally as mentioned before, the actor- or object-focus forms are the more common ways of forming sentences.

_Magdadala ang ina ng regalo para sa bata_. A clear, easy to understand sentence.

In this case, flipping the actor and object does not produce the same syntactical ambiguity since the marker _ang_ clearly points to ina as the focus while the marker _ng_ points to the unfocused object.

_Magdadala ng regalo ang ina para sa bata_. A similarly clear, syntactically unchallenging sentence.


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## Nino83

DotterKat said:


> However, having the actor come before the object produces a less syntactically ambiguous sentence.


Thank you very much!


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