# -לנסות ו



## airelibre

I was very interested to note the use of לנסות ולבנות (instead of simply לנסות לבנות) in the following quote:

כדי לנסות ולבנות מכונה שכזו, האינסטינקט הראשוני של החוקרים היה לפנות אל הביולוגיה ואל מדעי המחשב

(It's from an episode of the podcast עושים היסטוריה, the episode is about artificial intelligence)

This seems to mirror the English construction "to try and ___" (which is according to some prescriptivists incorrect and should be "to try to ____").

A few questions:

1) How common is this among native Hebrew speakers? Is it fairly new or are there older examples of it?

2) Does it sound unnatural, out-of-place, anglicised, or is it completely inconspicuous?

3) Do you think this is due to the effect of English, or has this arisen naturally? Perhaps there is something inherent within the verb "to try" that makes it likely to be followed by the word "and" in any language...

Thanks in advance.


----------



## slus

עושים היסטוריה is one of my favourite podcasts, but sadly his Hebrew is sometimes unbearable. 
1) I don't think it is very common, but it is not unheard of.
2) It sounds Anglicised, and therefore NOT totally unnatural. It also sounds like over-correction, when someone tries to use higher register, but doesn't really know how.
3) I definitely think this is due to the effect of English. There's no natural reason to follow לנסות by "ו".


----------



## elroy

This sounds totally utterly wrong to me.   I'm fairly certain "try and" is unique to English.


----------



## origumi

It's a good Hebrew construct for certain verbs since the Gemara or even the Mishnah (2nd century, when the Brits were still Saxons), e.g ללכת ו-, לחזור ו-, and more.
Sounds excellent, formal though, in Modern Hebrew.


----------



## airelibre

origumi said:


> It's good Hebrew since (at least) the Gemara or even the Mishnah (2nd century).
> Also sounds excellent, rather formal though I guess, in Modern Hebrew.


What's your source for this?

I've also noticed that he tends to hypercorrect. He sometimes uses הינה and its variations as a copula, which according to the academy is incorrect. And I don't know if it's correct or not, but I always find the pronunciation of זו as zu very contrived (eg. he says am shekazu in the quote above).


----------



## origumi

airelibre said:


> What's your source for this?


See comments here, with examples from Mishnah, Yerushalmi, Rashi, Ramban.

You got me while editing my previous post.


----------



## slus

airelibre said:


> What's your source for this?
> 
> I've also noticed that he tends to hypercorrect. He sometimes uses הינה and its variations as a copula, which according to the academy is incorrect. And I don't know if it's correct or not, but I always find the pronunciation of זו as zu very contrived (eg. he says am shekazu in the quote above).



Yes, my old high-school grammar teacher used to say "zoo is only for animals". The only correct options are "zo" and "zot".


----------



## slus

origumi said:


> See comments here, with examples from Mishnah, Yerushalmi, Rashi, Ramban.
> 
> You got me while editing my previous post.


ללכת ו is very different than לנסות ו - lalechet is an action, followed by another action. לנסות is not an action - the second verb describes what they were trying.


----------



## origumi

As I understand it, ללכת and לחזור in those examples are used in the same manner as the TO's לנסות.


----------



## Drink

I agree with slus, ללכת and לחזור are different from לנסות. Even in Russian we say пойти и сделать (to go and do), вернуться и сделать (to return and do).


----------



## elroy

I'm inclined to agree as well, and I'm not sure what origumi means by "in the same manner."


----------



## utopia

I don't know if it's correct or not, and frankly, I don't care.

What I can say is that it's used, and often.


----------



## origumi

elroy said:


> I'm inclined to agree as well, and I'm not sure what origumi means by "in the same manner."


"In the same manner" means that in these constructs the "ו" (waw) does not serve as "and" between two actions.

For "לנסות ולקחת", a (non-idimatic) English translation would be "attempt to take".
Similarly, ללכת ולדון does not mean "to walk and discuss", it means "to run a discussion" or alike. לחזור ולומר is not "to return and say", it's "to repeat".


----------



## Drink

I see now. But did חז"ל actually use לנסות that way, or are we reinterpreting an English calque _post facto_ in order to justify its use?


----------



## origumi

I don't find "לנסות" at all in Bavli, Yerushalmi, Mishnah (the Mamre search). There are other declenations of נ-ס-ה.

Found לנסות ולומר in the 17th century books שפתי חכמים and יד יוסף, also לנסות ולבחון in the 17th century book סדר קינות.


----------

