# 家にもらった赤ワインがある



## theseus_

Context:
Ex1. 家にもらった赤ワインがあるので、今からコーラで割って飲もうと思います。

I guess it means
"I have a red wine at home that was given by someone, and now I want to combine it with cola for drinking."

It seems that "家に" modifies "ある".

But in this sentence
Ex2. 昨日李さんにもらった本を読んでいます。

I guess "李さんに" modifies "もらった", it means "the book I read yesterday which was given by Li."

In Ex1, why "家に" can't modify "もらった", like "there is a red wine which I was given by my family"?


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## Flaminius

Very keen observation, *theseus_*!  From this and other observations you can deduce that 家 is usually a place, that is, an inanimate noun.  Inanimate nouns seldom give present to you.  A more correct way to express "given by my family" is 家族にもらった.

I should also note that the word order of this sentence is not very great.  To avoid ambiguity and difficulty of reading, it should have been:
もらったワインが家にある。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

家にもらった赤ワインがあるので、今からコーラで割って飲もうと思います。
=［我が家にもらった赤ワイン］があるので、・・・・
＝［我家用としてもらった赤ワイン］があるので、・・・・

家*に*＝*for *our family

 昨日李さんにもらった本を読んでいます。

李さん*に*＝*from/by* Mr/Ms Ri


Wait!
If there was a person called 家 (Ka) in China, 家にもらった赤ワイン could be "the wine given* from/by* Mr/Ms Ka."    lol   （←This is a joke.)

There seems no Japanese people whose name is 家, actually.
And if there is someone whose name is 家, the sentence should be:
家さんにもらった赤ワインがあるので、...

Therefore, 家に can only mean "for our family."


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## gengo

theseus_ said:


> 家にもらった赤ワインがあるので、今からコーラで割って飲もうと思います。





SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Therefore, 家に can only mean "for our family."



I think it means what Flam has suggested, that this wine is at the speaker's house, not that the family received it.  Grammatically, your interpretation is also possible, but I think it's much more likely to be the other way.

_There's a bottle of red wine at my house that I received, and I think I'll have a glass of it mixed with cola._

（赤ワインをコーラで割るなんて、ムカつく！）


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I agree with #2 and #4's interpretation.
I now think #3's interpretation seems weird, although it may be possible.


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## theseus_

Flaminius said:


> From this and other observations you can deduce that 家 is usually a place, that is, an inanimate noun.  Inanimate nouns seldom give present to you.  A more correct way to express "given by my family" is 家族にもらった.


Thanks! I have learned that "家" is an inanimate noun. I was under the misapprehension that "家" can be extended to family member.

Maybe "実家" can refer to someone’s parents？

今回は、雛人形を実家に買ってもらった場合、義理の実家からお返しするべきか、ということについてご紹介したいと思います。*

*雛人形を実家に買ってもらったらお返しは義理実家からするもの?




SoLaTiDoberman said:


> 家にもらった赤ワインがあるので、今からコーラで割って飲もうと思います。
> =［我が家にもらった赤ワイン］があるので、・・・・
> ＝［我家用としてもらった赤ワイン］があるので、・・・・
> 
> 家*に*＝*for *our family
> 
> 昨日李さんにもらった本を読んでいます。
> 
> 李さん*に*＝*from/by* Mr/Ms Ri
> 
> Wait!
> If there was a person called 家 (Ka) in China, 家にもらった赤ワイン could be "the wine given* from/by* Mr/Ms Ka."    lol   （←This is a joke.)
> 
> There seems no Japanese people whose name is 家, actually.
> And if there is someone whose name is 家, the sentence should be:
> 家さんにもらった赤ワインがあるので、...
> 
> Therefore, 家に can only mean "for our family."





SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I now think #3's interpretation seems weird, although it may be possible.


I have always been a faithful reader of your joke. 
And this time, it really helped me realized that "家" is an inanimate noun.




gengo said:


> I think it means what Flam has suggested, that this wine is at the speaker's house, not that the family received it.  Grammatically, your interpretation is also possible, but I think it's much more likely to be the other way.
> 
> _There's a bottle of red wine at my house that I received, and I think I'll have a glass of it mixed with cola._
> 
> （赤ワインをコーラで割るなんて、ムカつく！）


Thanks for your translation!

(At first, I also wondered that red wine mixed with cola, untill I googled it and found it turned out to be a Spanish cocktail, called calimocho/kalimotxo, or カリモーチョ.)


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## gengo

theseus_ said:


> I have learned that "家" is an inanimate noun. I was under the misapprehension that "家" can be extended to family member.



When 家 is read as いえ, it means house (the inanimate object), but when read as うち, it can also mean you and your family, your household.  And when read as か, it means a person or profession, such as 翻訳家 (translator).

Thanks for the interesting information about calimocho.


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## Flaminius

And 実家 is not even read いえ.  While it is fine to say 雛人形を実家に買ってもらった, the following is ungrammatical (using 家 as the subject of 買う):
*雛人形を家に買ってもらった。

Contrast this with your original construction, which sounds pretty awkward with 実家:
*実家にもらった赤ワイン
OK 実家からもらった赤ワイン

You can see 実家 is pretty much a PLACE here, albeit to a lesser degree than いえ is.


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## gengo

I'm sure theseus and everyone else here knows this, but it's interesting to point out that there is a good reason why 家 can mean both "house" and "family," and that can be seen in the kanji.  It is a pig under a roof, and in the old days pigs were indeed kept under the family's living quarters, almost like a part of the family.


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## Flaminius

It is a universal tendency to conflate the human dwelling and the human relationship.  E.g., _The Fall of the House of Usher_.  The Japanese words (not "readings" of a kanji) _ie_ and _uchi_ are used for both senses.  Their usage, however, not always interchangeable, and gives fine pretexts to discuss at length in JP threads.  




gengo said:


> It is a pig under a roof, and in the old days pigs were indeed kept under the family's living quarters, almost like a part of the family.


I can view this as a useful mnemonic (Chinese characters are hard to remember), but this is not the proper way of discussing the etymology of the letter.  説文, the oldest etymological Chinese characters dictionary states in volume 8:
家：居也。从宀，豭省聲。

The second part means that this letter is composed of 宀, the semantic radical, and an abbreviated form of 豭 (that provides its pronunciation).  Reference to 豭 (a male pig) is puzzling if you don't distinguish between a word and a letter that represents it.  Even 段玉裁, 説文's famous annotator, started a lamentation of 許慎's oversight.  What was really meant is that the letter 家 (pronounced カ, note that this is a very wide approximation) has a similar pronunciation to the word MALE PIG.  The latter is now represented by letter 豭 (whose pronunciation is カ as indicated by 叚), but was represented by letter PIG WITH A PENIS when 家 was created.



> 《漢語大字典》按：“甲骨文金文多作（牡豕，即豭）在宀下之形，後去牡器變為豕，《頌鼎》家字，一作家，一作可證。＂
> All  are the symbol for PIG WITH A PENIS.



This has been an argument how 家 procures its pronunciation from the 豕 part.  In other words, how this letter is a 形声文字.  We still don't know that this is also not a 会意文字 (e.g., pigs living under the human-living floor), but there is left a long way to prove that it is one.  Until then, the latter remains a 看図説話.


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## theseus_

gengo said:


> When 家 is read as いえ, it means house (the inanimate object), but when read as うち, it can also mean you and your family, your household.  And when read as か, it means a person or profession, such as 翻訳家 (translator).





gengo said:


> I'm sure theseus and everyone else here knows this, but it's interesting to point out that there is a good reason why 家 can mean both "house" and "family," and that can be seen in the kanji.  It is a pig under a roof, and in the old days pigs were indeed kept under the family's living quarters, almost like a part of the family.


Thanks for these explanations, I am very excited that "家" came from a roof "宀" and pigs "豕".




Flaminius said:


> And 実家 is not even read いえ.  While it is fine to say 雛人形を実家に買ってもらった, the following is ungrammatical (using 家 as the subject of 買う):
> *雛人形を家に買ってもらった。
> 
> Contrast this with your original construction, which sounds pretty awkward with 実家:
> *実家にもらった赤ワイン
> OK 実家からもらった赤ワイン
> 
> You can see 実家 is pretty much a PLACE here, albeit to a lesser degree than いえ is.





Flaminius said:


> It is a universal tendency to conflate the human dwelling and the human relationship.  E.g., _The Fall of the House of Usher_.  The Japanese words (not "readings" of a kanji) _ie_ and _uchi_ are used for both senses. Their usage, however, not always interchangeable, and gives fine pretexts to discuss at length in JP threads.


Thanks for the detailed explanation, and I realized that they are not always interchangeable.



Flaminius said:


> I can view this as a useful mnemonic (Chinese characters are hard to remember), but this is not the proper way of discussing the etymology of the letter.  説文, the oldest etymological Chinese characters dictionary states in volume 8:
> 
> 家：居也。从宀，豭省聲。
> 
> The second part means that this letter is composed of 宀, the semantic radical, and an abbreviated form of 豭 (that provides its pronunciation).  Reference to 豭 (a male pig) is puzzling if you don't distinguish between a word and a letter that represents it.  Even 段玉裁, 説文's famous annotator, started a lamentation of 許慎's oversight.  What was really meant is that the letter 家 (pronounced カ, note that this is a very wide approximation) has a similar pronunciation to the word MALE PIG.  The latter is now represented by letter 豭 (whose pronunciation is カ as indicated by 叚), but was represented by letter PIG WITH A PENIS when 家 was created.
> 
> 《漢語大字典》按：“甲骨文金文多作（牡豕，即豭）在宀下之形，後去牡器變為豕，《頌鼎》家字，一作家，一作可證。＂
> All  are the symbol for PIG WITH A PENIS.
> 
> This has been an argument how 家 procures its pronunciation from the 豕 part.  In other words, how this letter is a 形声文字.  We still don't know that this is also not a 会意文字 (e.g., pigs living under the human-living floor), but there is left a long way to prove that it is one.  Until then, the latter remains a 看図説話.


Thanks for the professional opinion about the etymology of "家", and I feel intimate to see "説文", "形声文字", "会意文字" and "看図説話".  
Even though it seems not hard to remember a Chinese character to me, but I am ashamed of lack of real depth Hanzi knowledge.


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