# Persian, Urdu: raqm or raqam?



## marrish

Hi,

Is it رَقْم raqm or رَقَم raqam? As used in verbs too, like رقم کردن \ کرنا.

Persian dictionaries indicate both


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## Alfaaz

Urdu: 

It is _raqm_ (plural: ارقام، رقوم).


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## fdb

In correct Arabic it is raqm only.


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## Alfaaz

fdb said:
			
		

> In correct Arabic it is raqm only.


 Which plural form(s) is/are used?

Also, is it _raquum_ (seems to be listed in one of the dictionaries of Arabic Almanac) or _ruquum_ (which appears to be the commonly used pronunciation in Urdu)?


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## Treaty

In Persian (and so Turkish) it is always _raqam_. In classic poetry it is rhymed with _qalam_, _karam_ and _diram._


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## Khaanabadosh

Colloquially, we say 'raqam'.


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## fdb

Alfaaz said:


> Which plural form(s) is/are used?
> 
> Also, is it _raquum_ (seems to be listed in one of the dictionaries of Arabic Almanac) or _ruquum_ (which appears to be the commonly used pronunciation in Urdu)?



Strange to say, the classic dictionaries do not mention any plural for raqm. In modern Arabic I have seen ʼarqām and ruqūm. As you mention, Hava’s dictionary has “raqūm”, but this must be misprint: faʻūl is not an accepted plural pattern in Arabic.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> Strange to say, the classic dictionaries do not mention any plural for raqm. In modern Arabic I have seen ʼarqām and ruqūm. As you mention, Hava’s dictionary has “raqūm”, but this must be misprint: faʻūl is not an accepted plural pattern in Arabic.



In the Arabic version of _at-tafhīm_ by Al-Biruni (early 11th c., though probably edited in 12th c. by Muhammad ibn Jōrābī according to a Wikipedia's article) two words are used: ازاقم (at the bottom of this page, though may be added by a later editor in 839 A.H., as it is not found in Persian version) and ارقام (in the second line of this page that is a page after the former. It is translated as رقمهای رومی in the Persian version). The latter seems to be a plural form, but I can't understand the former.

Nevertheless, neither Al-Biruni nor ibn Jōrābī were native Arabs.


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## fdb

Treaty said:


> ازاقم (at the bottom of this page,



It says الاراقم. The v-shaped sign over the rāʼ indicates that it is an unpointed (muhmal) letter.


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## marrish

Is the fatHa over qāf in Persian due to pronunciation reasons or could it have been borrowed on basis of a different Arabic form, with fatHa?


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## Treaty

Sorry, the ز was a typo. I meant to say there are two seemingly plural forms of رقم already in classic Arabic. Anyway, what is this اراقم? Is that a plural?


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for the detailed answer fdb!


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## savera

since plurals were being discussed, don't forget the Indic way of plurals. was just reading a ghazal by Muzaffar Hanfi and here are two lines of it: 
babuji bhi pi lete hain
mil jaati hain Ghaibi raqmein (رقمیں)


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## marrish

The discussion, loaded with information, has developed two streams, let me sum them up:
1) raqm & raqam
2) plural forms.

Re 1) it was my question:
"Is it رَقْم raqm or رَقَم raqam? As used in verbs too, like رقم کردن \ کرنا."
For *Persian*, I knew Persian dictionaries had diverging views, some preferring raqam while others raqm. The summary of entries from various dicitonaries on vajehyaab indicates different approaches and I don't believe the pronunciation signs are there by error.

The contributors said only raqm in Arabic; in *Persian* and Turkish raq*a*m; for Urdu raqm, raqam (colloquial) have been told.

Re. 2) The plurals are 'arqām and rukūm with raquum here and there; the mystery of الاراقم has remained unattended to. For Urdu arqaam, ruquum (more prevalent than raquum), raqmeN (or raq*a*meN?). الاراقم has not been mentioned as yet.

Returning to item 1), we are left in ignorance about the reason of Arabic raqm becoming raqam in Persian. Another thing is Urdu. This was my second question to ask your attention for this issue.

"Is the fatHa over qāf in Persian due to pronunciation reasons or could it have been borrowed on basis of a different Arabic form, with fatHa?"

Two postulates have been made, a) pronunciation reasons, b) different Arabic form than raqm, with "a" after "q" forming the borrowed word. b) might be a trip of speculative imagination, but the answer isn't known yet.


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## Abu Talha

I know that raqam is a common (but non-faSeeH) pronunciation in Arabic. But I cannot say whether this was the pronunciation borrowed by Persian.


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