# Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi: Safed



## Qureshpor

*In Punjabi, for skin colour both "goraa" and "chiTTaa" are used. For milk, for example, we would use "chiTTaa" only. Before "safed", what would have been the KhaRii-Bolii word for "safed". Does modern "High Hindi" use just "safed" or is there another word too?*


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## flyinfishjoe

There's श्वेत _shvet_. For example, the Hindi name for the White Nile is श्वेत नील _shvet nīl_.


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## panjabigator

"Shvetaa" can also be a girls name.


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## Qureshpor

flyinfishjoe said:


> There's श्वेत _shvet_. For example, the Hindi name for the White Nile is श्वेत नील _shvet nīl_.



*Thank you. Is "shvet" used in everyday speech and writing for "shvet qamiis/kurtaa" [white shirt], "shvet baadal"[white cloud/s] etc?*


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## flyinfishjoe

QURESHPOR said:


> *Thank you. Is "shvet" used in everyday speech and writing for "shvet qamiis/kurtaa" [white shirt], "shvet baadal"[white cloud/s] etc?*


Sometimes, but not as often as _safed_. For example, one of my friends referred to a White Christmas (snow on Christmas day) as श्वेत क्रिस्मस _shvet krismas_. I'm not sure of this, but I have a feeling that it is used a lot more in figurative concepts rather than literal ones. I don't think anyone would say _shvet qamīz/kurtā_. I have seen _shvet bādal_ though, but only in writing.


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## Faylasoof

There is  *श्वेत *_*shvet(a)*_, but isn't there also *श्वेवत shvevat(a)*? Which is more common?  What about* उज्जवलता  ujjavalataa*? Is this used at all for white?

BTW, in our Urdu we always say: *سُفَید sufayd*!


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## BP.

^F sahib, I've heard _sufeed _a lot from our Deccani relations, but the first vowel always remained an a for us. And the _ay_ was there as well, which appears to be a modern innovation since it isn't there in the borrowing _sapiid_.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^F sahib, I've heard _sufeed _a lot from our Deccani relations, but the first vowel always remained an a for us. And the _ay_ was there as well, which appears to be a modern innovation since it isn't there in the borrowing _sapiid_.



*Punjabi seems to have preserved a number of features found in the older Persian language, "sufaid" [with a diphthong] being one of them. In the rural areas of Punjab, at least in the past, females had names such as "Khurshaid Begum" in place of the accepted Khurshiid Begum. I believe the vowel transition has been from -ai to -e (majhuul) to -ii (ma'ruuf).

I had the pleasure of knowing someone who was born in Khusraupor in India and then spent a large part of his life in 'Aziimabad. During conversation he pronounced this word, to my great surprise, as "Khurshed"! So, in conclusion..

sufaid* >> safed >> safiid (as in Modern Persian)

Khurshaid >> Khurshed>>Khurshiid

* This would of course have been "supaid" to start off with. 


*


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## BP.

Thank you.


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## Qureshpor

flyinfishjoe said:


> Sometimes, but not as often as _safed_. For example, one of my friends referred to a White Christmas (snow on Christmas day) as श्वेत क्रिस्मस _shvet krismas_. I'm not sure of this, but I have a feeling that it is used a lot more in figurative concepts rather than literal ones. I don't think anyone would say _shvet qamīz/kurtā_. I have seen _shvet bādal_ though, but only in writing.


*
As a matter of interest, Flyinfishjoe, the word (at least in Urdu) is qamiis and not qamiiz!
*


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^F sahib, I've heard _sufeed _a lot from our Deccani relations, but the first vowel always remained an a for us. And the _ay_ was there as well, which appears to be a modern innovation since it isn't there in the borrowing _sapiid_.


Well, _*sefiid*_ (with a _zer_ on _siin_)is Tehrani pronunciation, as I recall it, and that is what my Aryanpour Persian dictionary has!


QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Punjabi seems to have preserved a number of features found in the older Persian language, "sufaid" [with a diphthong] being one of them. In the rural areas of Punjab, at least in the past, females had names such as "Khurshaid Begum" in place of the accepted Khurshiid Begum. I believe the vowel transition has been from -ai to -e (majhuul) to -ii (ma'ruuf).
> 
> I had the pleasure of knowing someone who was born in Khusraupor in India and then spent a large part of his life in 'Aziimabad. During conversation he pronounced this word, to my great surprise, as "Khurshed"! So, in conclusion..
> 
> sufaid* >> safed >> safiid (as in Modern Persian)
> 
> Khurshaid >> Khurshed>>Khurshiid
> 
> * This would of course have been "supaid" to start off with.
> *


 Not just Punabi QP SaheB! 



Faylasoof said:


> ...
> BTW, in our Urdu we always say: *سُفَید sufayd*!


  We've _always_ used a diphthong here!

I've looked up several Urdu lexicons and nearly all have _*sufayd*_, including Nasim ul Lughaat (Lahore). This online Urdu lexicon has:

  سُفید (ی مجہول)

.. and Platts has this:
P سفيد _safed_, vulg. _safaid_, _sufed_, _sufaid_ [old P. _saped_; Pehl.  _śpet_; Zend _śpaéta_, rt. _śpit_; S. श्वेत, rt. श्वित्], adj. White; clean, blank:—_safaid-posh_, adj. & s.m. Clothed in white;—a man dressed in white; one who can afford good clothing, a well-to-do man:—_safed tulsī_, s.f. White basil:—_sufaid sumbul_, s.m. White oxide of arsenic:—_sufaid t̤ut̤a_, s.m. White vitriol, zinc:—_sufaid karnā_, v.t. To whiten, to clean; to whitewash:—_sufaid miṭṭī_, s.f. Chalky soil; chalk:—_safaid honā_ or _safaid paṛ-jānā_, To become white; to become grey; to turn pale:—_lahū safaid honā_, 'The blood to turn white'; to grow cold or indifferent.

I am intrigued by the reference to _*3aziimabad / Patna*_! Part of my family is from there! I've heard many variants from the _urdugoyaan_ from there, but for some reason my own family members even there always say  *سُفَید sufayd*!

So I guess I shall be sticking to our  *سُفَید sufayd*!


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> *Is "shvet" used in everyday speech and writing *




That's a very difficult question to answer. I am sure that there is some poor delusional person out there that is intent on using shvet for white, but by far, I think you will find safed to be the people's choice.


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> That's a very difficult question to answer. I am sure that there is some poor delusional person out there that is intent on using shvet for white, but by far, I think you will find safed to be the people's choice.



*Thank you. *


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## panjabigator

Qureshpor, just found the word سپید in Manto's "Naya Qanoon." Also wanted to add that I found "sufaid" (and not "safed") in a Punjabi text I was reading last week. I seem to have forgotten where it was now, but I'll post a quote later.


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## rahulbemba

*Alternate words for "white" or "safed" in Hindi:
*
There are many words in Hindi for "white" and all are in day to day use. For example, I can think of these (apart from "safed"): 

1) shwet *श्वेत*

2) dhawal *धवल *

3) gaur *गौर*

It appears that the word "gora" has come from this Sanskrit word "gaur". 

More than this, here is a very good document which tries to trace the history of the word "white". [Ref] It tells: 

*The word "white" can be traced back all the way to Sanskrit through the word "cvit" *(Oxford English Dictionary 263). *"White" then came into Proto Indo-European as the word "kweid" or "kwid" and as the Indo-European languages divided and evolved the Proto-Germanic form of "white" became "hwitaz"* (Barnhart 1233) *and eventually the word came into Old English as "hwaIt"* (Oxford English Dictionary 263). *Through the evolution of the English language, the word became "whit" in Middle English. *

Source: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/365520/the_word_white_and_its_many_meanings.html

The word "whit" became ultimately the present day "white". 

The word "shwet" is used in Hindi, coming directly from Sanskrit. For example: 

बहेगा सरिता में जल श्वेत,
समुज्ज्वल दर्पण के अनुरूप,
देखकर जिसमें अपना रूप,
पीत कुसुम की चादर ओढ़ेंगे सरसों के खेत। [Ref] (here the poet uses the word shwet for water, meaning clear/pure)

and: 

देखतीं आकाश आँखें!

श्वेत अक्षर पृष्ठ काला,
तारकों की वर्णमाला,
पढ़ रहीं हैं एक जीवन का जटिल इतिहास आँखें!
देखतीं आकाश आँखें! [Ref] (here the noted poet Harivansh Rai Bahchchan is expressing a dark sky with twinkling stars as a black paper and white (shwet) letters on it)


Even the word "dhawal" धवल is used many a time (now a days more often in literature). E.g. in his poem "बादल को घिरते देखा है।", the great poet Nagarjun writes:

अमल धवल गिरि के शिखरों पर,
बादल को घिरते देखा है।
छोटे-छोटे मोती जैसे
उसके शीतल तुहिन कणों को,
मानसरोवर के उन स्वर्णिम
कमलों पर गिरते देखा है,
बादल को घिरते देखा है। [Ref] 

In the above lines, the poet uses the word "dhawal" धवल for "white" mountains. He even calls it "amal dhawal" where "amal" means "pure" or "without any impurity" and "dhawal" means "white". So the word "dhawal" indicates both the "color" white as well as the qualities of white depending on the way we want to use it.

*It appears that the word "safed" सफ़ेद also came from the Sanskrit word "shwet" श्वेत*: Here is the reference for this: 

*Wilford was quite right, as anyone might know who had the slightest acquaintance with the Persian and Hindustani, in which languages the word "safed", "sufet", "white", is clearly derived from the Sanskrit "Shwet". 

*Source: The Cambrian journal, Volume 3; By Cambrian Institute, Tenby, Wales *[Ref]*


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> *It appears that the word "safed" सफ़ेद also came from the Sanskrit word "shwet" श्वेत*: Here is the reference for this:
> 
> *Wilford was quite right, as anyone might know who had the slightest acquaintance with the Persian and Hindustani, in which languages the word "safed", "sufet", "white", is clearly derived from the Sanskrit "Shwet".
> 
> *Source: The Cambrian journal, Volume 3; By Cambrian Institute, Tenby, Wales *[Ref]*




If the Persian word "saped/sufaid/safed/safiid etc" is derived from Sanskrit's "shwet", then logic dictates that Persian itself has come out of Sanskrit. I don't believe this is the case. Old Persian and Sanskrit share common ancestory but the two themselves are not derived from one another. At least this is my understanding. Perhaps others could shed light on the quoted author's conclusion.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Qureshpor, just found the word سپید in Manto's "Naya Qanoon." Also wanted to add that I found "sufaid" (and not "safed") in a Punjabi text I was reading last week. I seem to have forgotten where it was now, but I'll post a quote later.


 Oh good! So it might be *sufayd / sufaid* in Punjabi too! Well, at least some Punjabi texts! That is how we say it as well:


Faylasoof said:


> Well, *sefiid* (with a _zer_ on _siin_)is Tehrani pronunciation, as I recall it, and that is what my Aryanpour Persian dictionary has!
> …..
> I've looked up several Urdu lexicons and nearly all have *sufayd*, including Nasim ul Lughaat (Lahore). This online Urdu lexicon has:
> 
> سُفید (ی مجہول)


  … and this is how it is not just from my _lakhnavi_ branch of the family but also that from Patna.

The _yaa_ is defined as _majhuul_ in many Urdu dictionaries, i.e. like a diphthong! [Unfortunately the online dictionary is link is playing up! It has been for a while, I noticed!] So I’ll continue pronouncing it as *sufayd*!




QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *rahulbemba*
> *It appears that the word "safed" सफ़ेद also came from the Sanskrit word "shwet" श्वेत*: Here is the reference for this:
> 
> *Wilford was quite right, as anyone might know who had the slightest acquaintance with the Persian and Hindustani, in which languages the word "safed", "sufet", "white", is clearly derived from the Sanskrit "Shwet".
> 
> *Source: The Cambrian journal, Volume 3; By Cambrian Institute, Tenby, Wales *[Ref]*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Persian word "saped/sufaid/safed/safiid etc" is derived from Sanskrit's "shwet", then logic dictates that Persian itself has come out of Sanskrit. I don't believe this is the case. Old Persian and Sanskrit share common ancestory but the two themselves are not derived from one another. At least this is my understanding. Perhaps others could shed light on the quoted author's conclusion.
Click to expand...

 Platts' etymology is quite clear:


Faylasoof said:


> .. and Platts has this:
> *P* سفيد _safed_, vulg. _safaid_, _sufed_, _sufaid_ [old P. _saped_; Pehl. _śpet_; *Zend* _śpaéta_, rt. _śpit_; *S*. श्वेत, rt. श्वित्], adj. White; clean, blank……


 The word سفيد *safed / sufayd* in Urdu is most immediately from Persian (*P*) and in turn derived  from Middle and Old Persian languages. The reference to *Zend* is actually to *Avestan* (some texts present it as Zend-Avestan others just as Avestan), another  _very old _Iranian language. There are numerous words that are found to be cognates in both Avestan (*Zend*) and Sanskrit (*S*). Hardly surprising as they had a common ancestor and this is also seen in the huge similarity of grammars of the two languages.


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## rahulbemba

QURESHPOR said:


> If the Persian word "saped/sufaid/safed/safiid etc" is derived from Sanskrit's "shwet", then logic dictates that Persian itself has come out of Sanskrit.



I fear this conclusion is not logical. In simple set theory we would see that the two sets are "intersecting" and it is not the case of one set being the "subset" of the other. 

All living languages interact with other languages and just because some words in one language come from another, it is not logical that one language itself has come out of the other.


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## tonyspeed

Faylasoof said:


> P سفيد _safed_, vulg. *safaid*, _sufed_, _sufaid_



I heard this pronunciation today. I must say when I heard it I shivered a bit in shock.


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## marrish

Wow, very expressive! 
May I ask you which kind of speaker was it, out of curiosity? I know that the standard Hindi spelling is with ''e''.


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## tonyspeed

marrish said:


> Wow, very expressive!
> May I ask you which kind of speaker was it, out of curiosity? I know that the standard Hindi spelling is with ''e''.



Karachi


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## marrish

Karachi, this is nothing and all!

I think it is quite normal to hear _sufaid _in Karachi!

As a comment let me tell you that we say _sepiid_ in Persian but _supaid_ or _sufaid_ in Urdu.


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## BP.

tonyspeed said:


> I heard this pronunciation today. I must say when I heard it I shivered a bit in shock.


Why? _safayd _is what I always say, and in compound or derived words, sometimes _sapiid_.

A few days back I heard safeed for the first time and that was the oddity, not safaid/safayd!


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why? _safayd _is what I always say, and in compound or derived words, sometimes _sapiid_.
> 
> A few days back I heard safeed for the first time and that was the oddity, not safaid/safayd!



BP SaaHib, please don't forget that Tony SaaHib had the "u" in "s*u*faid".

Edit: Correction. My mistake!


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## tonyspeed

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why? _safayd _is what I always say, and in compound or derived words, sometimes _sapiid_.
> 
> A few days back I heard safeed for the first time and that was the oddity, not safaid/safayd!



As a learner it breaks your perception of the world everytime you hear a discrepancy for the first time. Remember, it is spelt safed in Hindi where I make a strong distinction between the vowels e and ai. 

So my question is now, does the spelling in Urdu leave room for ambiguity in the pronunciation? In otherwords, is it spelt safed or safaid in Urdu?


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## UrduMedium

tonyspeed said:


> Karachi


 Both _safaid _and _sufaid _sound legitimate Karachi pronunciations.


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## BP.

tonyspeed said:


> ...
> So my question is now, does the spelling in Urdu leave room for ambiguity in the pronunciation? In otherwords, is it spelt safed or safaid in Urdu?


Even though a word isn't spoken as it is written but written as it's spoken for any native speaker, I think the spelling does allow for the ambiguity because it is s-f-y-d, the diphthong coming from the diacritic, which usually isn't written.


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> P سفيد _safed_, vulg. *safaid*, _sufed_, _sufaid_
> 
> 
> 
> I heard this pronunciation today. I must say when I heard it I shivered a bit in shock.
Click to expand...

 I don't blame you! We always  go for 


Faylasoof said:


> ...
> BTW, in our Urdu we always say: *سُفَید sufayd*!


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