# Occitan influence on the rest of Romance languages



## Ajura

What is the influence of Occitan to the rest of Romance languages and how did it affect them in their development.


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## sokol

Occitan only for short periods of time was politically important but its Troubadour tradition probably had an impact on neighbouring Romance languages in the Middle Ages.

After the 15th century at the latest however Occitan lost prestige rapidly to French, I guess that after the 15th century there hardly could have been significant influence of Occitan on other Romance languages.


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## Outsider

In Portuguese there's an ubiquitous influence: the digraphs _lh_ and _nh_, for palatal sounds, were borrowed from the orthography of medieval Occitan. 

There were also a couple of words borrowed from Occitan, though not many. The influence of Occitan on Portuguese was mostly cultural, and took the form of an imitation of troubadour poetry.


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## Ajura

> Occitan only for short periods of time was politically important but its Troubadour tradition probably had an impact on neighbouring Romance languages in the Middle Ages.


Occitan is also one of the basis for the Mediterranean Lingua franca.


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## Miguel Antonio

Outsider said:


> In Portuguese there's an ubiquitous influence: the digraphs _lh_ and _nh_, for palatal sounds, were borrowed from the orthography of medieval Occitan.
> 
> There were also a couple of words borrowed from Occitan, though not many. The influence of Occitan on Portuguese was mostly cultural, and took the form of an imitation of troubadour poetry.


Roughly the same would apply to Galician language, the influence having arrived along the pilgrims' route to Saint James (Santiago de Compostela), starting at a time when Galician and Portuguese were the same language. _(more here)_
The _nh _and_ lh _were also used in the Middle Ages, and are used by some people today, though the official standard now is like in Spanish.


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## Grop

At the risk of stating the obvious, Occitan has an influence on some French regional dialects. Some regional words and phrases are of Occitan origin, and some accents also reflect an Occitan influence.

If you understand French, see here what they say about accents from Auvergne, Gascogne, Languedoc and Provence.

Also some French words that aren't particularly regional are of Occitan origin.


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## ryba

Grop said:


> Also some French words that aren't particularly regional are of Occitan origin.



"Le français lui a emprunté les mots "amour" "aubade" "auberge" "boutique" "cadet" "cagoule" "caisse" "caserne" "escargot" "gai" "foulard" "jaloux" "omelette" "pelouse" "romance", "truc" et "humour" (non exhaustif, bien sûr)."

source: «_Occitan : faut-il en faire encore plus ?_  » forum: Des faits, pas du pathos : (par Batko - 20/10/2009 12:12)


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## XiaoRoel

En gallego la influencia medieval es importantísima (muchas veces a través de una adaptación catalana, en especial tras el genocidio contra los albigense que se refugiaron en masa en Cataluña). Entran por vía literaria (Cancioneiros profanos y sagrado) y por el Camino de Santiago y afecta tanto a palabras culturales, como a técnicas y objetos de uso cotidiano.


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## Manuel G. Rey

XiaoRoel said:


> En gallego la influencia medieval es importantísima (muchas veces a través de una adaptación catalana, en especial tras el genocidio contra los albigense que se refugiaron en masa en Cataluña). Entran por vía literaria (Cancioneiros profanos y sagrado) y por el Camino de Santiago y afecta tanto a palabras culturales, como a técnicas y objetos de uso cotidiano.


Jamás lo habría imaginado. ¿Algún ejemplo de objetos de uso cotidiano de origen occitano que todavía forme parte del vocabulario actual, por favor? ¿Del ámbito rural, litoral, urbano, de cualquiera de ellos?
Gracias de antemano, XiaoRoel


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## XiaoRoel

Hace poco hablamos de los *picheis* (sg. *pichel*), en tiempos no muy lejanos, antes del plástico, un tipo de _jarra de estaño_ para recoger el vino de la _billa_ (grifo e madera) del _bocoi_ (barril) para vertirlo en la _cunca_ (taza) o _vaso_. Fue industria, la de los _picheleiros_, floreciente hasta los años de 1960. 
En general los _extranjerismos_ que designan objetos o técnicas, entran con el _objeto o técnica nueva_ en el idioma original, y acabarán casi todo por ser _adaptados a la fonética_ de nuestro idioma y así seguirán su vida entre nosotros.


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## Manuel G. Rey

XiaoRoel said:


> Hace poco hablamos de los _picheles_, en tiempos no muy lejanos, antes del plástico, un tipo de _jarra de estaño_ para recoger el vino de la _billa_ (grifo e madera) del _bocoi_ (barril) para vertirlo en la _cunca_ (taza) o _vaso_. Fue industria, la de los _picheleiros_, floreciente hasta los años de 1960.
> En general los _extranjerismos_ que designan objetos o técnicas, entran con el _objeto o técnica nueva_ en el idioma original, y acabarán casi todo por ser _adaptados a la fonética_ de nuestro idioma y así seguirán su vida entre nosotros.



¿Pichel, billa, bocoi, cunca, son de origen occitano o son simplemente extranjerismos?


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## XiaoRoel

Occitano sólo es *pichel*. Las demás las puse en cursiva por ser palabras gallegas en un texto español. Ya formateé el occitanismo en negrita. También *segrel*, y mucha lengua de las _Cantigas profanas y sagradas_.
En portugués influyó hsta en la grafía (nh/lh). Aunque muchas no sobrevivieron o andan mezcladas con galicismos que entraron por el Camino de Compostela.


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## Manuel G. Rey

XiaoRoel said:


> Occitano sólo es *pichel*. Las demás las puse en cursiva por ser palabras gallegas en un texto español. Ya formateé el occitanismo en negrita. También *segrel*, y mucha lengua de las _Cantigas profanas y sagradas_.
> En portugués influyó hsta en la grafía (nh/lh). Aunque muchas no sobrevivieron o andan mezcladas con galicismos que entraron por el Camino de Compostela.



Gracias, XiaoRoel. No identifico (cosa no sorprendente) la procedencia de segrel. De pichel, parece claro que es pichier, aunque ha perdido la tapa por el camino.


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## aclaparat

Creo que os dejáis de nombrar la lengua a la que se le parece más, el catalán. Casi se podría decir que son una misma lengua por su alto parecido.


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## Favara

De fet el "pichel" que diuen més amunt és el que en català (almenys a les varietats valencianes) diem pitxer.


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## ampurdan

Actually, only the language of the troubadours (that is, Occitan) was used by Catalan-speakers to write poetry well until the 15th century (when Ausiàs March wrote these verses: "lleixant apart l'estil dels trobadors,/ qui per escalf trespassen veritat"; in English: "Discarding the style of troubadours, who are so inflamed that they cannot speak without exaggeration...").


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## Manuel G. Rey

El nombre de la lengua que se viene mencionando no es languedoc, ni 
lengadoc. 

Copio del Nouveau Petit Larousse Illustré:
*Languedoc*, pays de l'ancienne France....Il tire son nom de la langue de ses habitants (langue d'oc), ...

Y según el mismo diccionario:
*Troubadour:*(du provenç. _trobador_, le trouveur). Poète lyrique de langue d'oc...
Y según Wikipedia:
*Occitan* (pronounced /ˈɒksɨtən/), known also as *Lenga d'òc* in Occitan or *Langue d'oc* in French (native name: _occitan_ [utsiˈta], _lenga d'òc_ [ˈleŋɡɔˈðɔ(k)]; native nickname: _la lenga nòstra_ i.e. "our [own] language") is a Romance language spoken in Occitania, that is, Southern France, the Occitan Valleys of Italy, Monaco and in the Aran Valley of Spain. It is also spoken in the linguistic enclave of Guardia Piemontese (Calabria, Italy). It is a co-official language in Catalonia, Spain (known as Aranese in Aran Valley). Modern Occitan is the closest relative of Catalan. The languages, as spoken in early medieval times, might be considered variant forms of the same language. The term Provençal is often used to refer to Occitan.


Según eso, la lengua de los troubadors o trouveurs fue el occitano, también conocido como lenga d'òc en occitano, langue d'oc en francés, o lenga nòstra por los que la hablan o hablaban. Y con frecuencia se usa el término provençal para referirse al occitano.


Me atengo a eso. Si alguien está en desacuerdo, yo no voy a discutirlo, pero puede dirigirse a Larousse o a Wikipedia.


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## Manuel G. Rey

Ajura said:


> The difference between Lengadoc and Provencau(Occitano Romances) is like Asturian and Leonese(AsturLeonese)...


I suppose that you refer to Lenga d 'òc and Provençau.
As for the Asturleonés, happily it is not a matter of this thread, because it is a linguistic domain with three differentiated areas,  divided in six varieties, more other three that are object of discussion. It should be better to  remain with the Occitan peculiarities and its influence on the rest of Romance languages.


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## Manuel G. Rey

Ajura said:


> Both AsturLeonese and Occitan had been fragmented and are becoming endangered because of Government policies..
> 
> Occitan was an important language in the middle ages, It was once a poetic language,it became of less importance because of the cathar crusade.




I can't say anything on the decadence of the Occitanian. Perhaps you could specify if it was endangered because of Government policies or because of the cathar crusade.

The governments policies have been so responsible for the decline of the Asturleones, as for that of the Sumerian, the Ugaritic, the Aramaic, the hieroglyphic Egyptian, the classic Greek or the vulgar Latin.

But we can always join the Italians to say: ' Piove, porco governo '.


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## Ajura

Manuel G. Rey said:


> I can't say anything on the decadence of the Occitanian. Perhaps you could specify if it was endangered because of Government policies or because of the cathar crusade.
> 
> The governments policies have been so responsible for the decline of the Asturleones, as for that of the Sumerian, the Ugaritic, the Aramaic, the hieroglyphic Egyptian, the classic Greek or the vulgar Latin.
> 
> But we can always join the Italians to say: ' Piove, porco governo '.


 
I don't think it's too late for Occitan to be revived...


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## Manuel G. Rey

Ajura said:


> I don't think it's too late for Occitan to be revived...




I hope there will be a revival.


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## panjabigator

ampurdan said:


> Actually, only the language of the troubadours (that is, Occitan) was used by Catalan-speakers to write poetry well until the 15th century (when Ausiàs March wrote these verses: "lleixant apart l'estil dels trobadors,/ qui per escalf trespassen veritat"; in English: "Discarding the style of troubadours, who are so inflamed that they cannot speak without exaggeration...").



Just read this poem the other night. Are you saying that post March, Troubadour poetry was written in Catalan and not Occitan?

As it is, March in Medieval Catalan was a lot easier to read than Occitan.


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## Ajura

panjabigator said:


> Just read this poem the other night. Are you saying that post March, Troubadour poetry was written in Catalan and not Occitan?
> 
> As it is, March in Medieval Catalan was a lot easier to read than Occitan.



It is in Provencal not in Lengadocian dialect...


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## ampurdan

panjabigator said:


> Just read this poem the other night. Are you saying that post March, Troubadour poetry was written in Catalan and not Occitan?
> 
> As it is, March in Medieval Catalan was a lot easier to read than Occitan.



Well, actually, I think Jordi de Sant Jordi was one of the firsts and also the last to write in the troubadour style in Catalan, rather than Occitan. March is not a troubadour, this is his "novelty".


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## panjabigator

ampurdan said:


> Well, actually, I think Jordi de Sant Jordi was one of the firsts and also the last to write in the troubadour style in Catalan, rather than Occitan. March is not a troubadour, this is his "novelty".



Hmmm, would it be off topic to ask why March isn't considered a Troubadour?  He seems to fit the definition (and wasn't he from the same period as Jordi?).


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## Manuel G. Rey

panjabigator said:


> Hmmm, would it be off topic to ask why March isn't considered a Troubadour?  He seems to fit the definition (and wasn't he from the same period as Jordi?).


Aunque no haya confusión, en Valencia siempre oigo y leo el nombre precediendo al apellido. 
En cuanto a la primera pregunta, cito de Wikipedia: 
"Ausiàs March abandona la tradición de la poesía trovadoresca y su retórica brillante –pero artificiosa y distante– lo que le permite la expresión de la íntima meditación personal de un hombre-poeta que aparece desprovisto de toda ficción."
Y respecto a la segunda, Jordi de Sant Jordi no solo es contemporáneo de Ausiàs March, aunque probablemente una veintena de años más joven, sino que ambos eran valencianos, caballeros y poetas, y sirvieron al rey Alfonso V el Magnánimo, así que seguramente se conocieron.


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