# Who Pays?  Man or Woman?



## Shmily

Hello people  I 'd like to know if in your country, during a dating, who pays more for the common expenses, per example: for going to cinema, restaurant, taxi...etc

In my country China, generally men pay almost all. And it's considered as usual, if i take a taxi with my boyfriend, and both of us wanna to pay the taxist, the taxist will accept first his money since 'it's his responsability to pay for me'.

Just curious.^^Sorry for my bad english.

Best Wishes!!!


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## maxiogee

Men generally pay for the first few dates. After that it is expected that either expenses will be shared, or that the woman would begin to pay for some of the outings.

There are women who are so "liberated" as to denigrate anyone who opens a door for them, or anyone who stands up when they enter a room, and all the other little courtesies I was brought up to practice. That sort of woman can buy her own cup of coffee!


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## badgrammar

Keep doing it, Max, many of us still appreciate gentlemen...

I think who pays depends on a lot of things - what kind of outing, etc.  But atleast in France, I think men will always pay for the first few outings - although it is probably quite common that the woman offers to pick up the tab for some things.  For example, he may pay for the meal, but she will grab the check for the after dinner drinks, and insist on paying.

Also depends on each person's income.  If the woman makes lot more money than the man, and both are aware of it, she may graciously insist on paying.

But still it goes back to tradition, the niceties that make us say "Vive la différence"!  I suppose some women take advantage of this and never even attempt to pay for anything, but most of the gals I know enjoy the pleasure of paying sometimes.  And it is a pleasure to invite someone.  Some guys may have a hard time accepting that at first, but if you insist, then it gives them a turn to feel pampered for a change (and shows them you're not just there for a free meal!)


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## Markus

I think this is probably the same everywhere; I don't know of any cultures where the women are the "dominant" gender, except maybe those Amazonians!  This is changing (and has been for a long time) in the west as women become more independent. Personally, I think it's nice to hold the door open for anyone. Politeness shouldn't be a one-directional thing between two genders.


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## cherine

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Keep doing it, Max, many of us still appreciate gentlemen...


Oh yes please Max  it really touches us -girls- to see that there are still some gentle men surviving on earth  
Men became very happy with the feminists who ask for complete equality between sexes, that they sometimes treat us as "brothers"   

Well, back to topic : in Egypt, the custom is that the man pays EVERYTHING not only in the first outings as some of you said but in ALL outings  Moreover, a guy who let the girl pays is regarded somehow as "not man enough" to be financially in charge.

BUT... things are changing a bit, at least between friends. Few years ago, when a group of friends (girls and boys/women and men) go out, men/guys always pay. But nowadays, they're "liberal enough" to let us girls share the expenses or EVEN invite them (yes, it was unthinkable that a girl invites a boy to anything).
Maybe few years/months from now things would change between lovers or dating persons too. Who knows


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## gato2

I think in Spain is like Maxiogee describes. Men pay for the first dates but later it's usual to take turns.



I will be happy if you correct my English.


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## ElaineG

Here in NY, I would say it depends.

If I am romantically interested in a guy, I will let him pay for the first several dates, and then once we are more established as a couple, we will take turns paying as the situation and our relative economic situations allow.

However, if I go on a date with someone and it becomes clear during the date that there is nothing more than friendship in the offing, or possibly not even that, I will do my best to pay my share of the evening.

Unfortunately, some men believe that they have _paid for something in return_ by buying you dinner, and it is best to avoid those misunderstandings where possible!


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## GenJen54

ElaineG said:
			
		

> However, if I go on a date with someone and it becomes clear during the date that there is nothing more than friendship in the offing, or possibly not even that, I will do my best to pay my share of the evening.
> 
> Unfortunately, some men believe that they have _paid for something in return_ by buying you dinner, and it is best to avoid those misunderstandings where possible!


 
HA! You certainly hit the nail on the head with this one (sorry, fellows). 

While I was still single, that was certainly impetus for me to pay my "own way" on many an occasion. When my now-husband and I started dating, he paid for most of our outings. 

The pattern is fairly similar now that we've been married for awhile, although I pay for groceries and things of that ilk so it "evens out" a bit more.


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## jinti

When I'm out with someone in a restaurant the first few times, I always offer to pay (or at least reach for my purse), but often he will insist on paying.  If he insists, I let him, but then I pay for something else, like admission to an event.  Or the next time, _I_ insist and say "My treat" so that he doesn't feel bad letting me pay.

As you can see, I'm not really comfortable with the man paying all the time.  Some do expect "something" in return, and even if they don't, it can be a real financial strain to be expected to pay for two people all the time.  It makes more sense to me to split the cost rather than saddling one person with it, especially if he doesn't have a lot of money.


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## Fernando

In Spain, I would say there is a small pressure on the man to pay, but you find from time to time a woman who thinks it is offensive. 

But, anyway, we (males) use to fight to death just to see who pays, while the waiter looks the fight.

So, the wisest way is, for the man, trying to pay. If the woman thinks it is offensive she will (sure) let you know. Otherwise, you pay the bill.


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## vince

maxiogee said:
			
		

> There are women who are so "liberated" as to denigrate anyone who opens a door for them, or anyone who stands up when they enter a room, and all the other little courtesies I was brought up to practice. That sort of woman can buy her own cup of coffee!



Some people don't want to be treated like a delicate flower just because they were born a woman. Some women want to be treated like everyone else. Many of these "gentlemenly" traditions are rooted in sexism, relics of the time when women were almost always financially-dependent and emotionally, physically, and intellectually weaker than men. It made sense for men to open doors first, to pay for dates, etc. Nowadays the practice of "chivalry" just works to reinforce gender roles (the knight protecting the helpless damsel-in-distress), reversing the progress in gender equality feminism has made in the past 50 years.


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## CrazyIvan

In Taiwan, as I know, some customs have been changing over the time.

Men who are 10 to 15 years older than me are still expected to carry the expenses of dating, at least this is what I heard from my cousin. They do not like to leave the impression that they cannot afford the date. 

To my brother's generation, which is about 5 years ahead of mine, it is common to share the expenses....or, if man pays this time, the woman would at least show her intetion to pay for the next.

Situation comes more clear to an tendency to share, or even further to a situation that, "who earns more is the one who pays" situation in my generation. But still that women would sometimes hand over the money and let the man go to the counter to pay the bill, for a public image that the man is the one who pays.

I would say gender equality in Taiwan, at least in big cities, is becoming a general accepted concept, and practice. Women like to show their independency, and man do not feel uncomfortable for that.


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## CrazyIvan

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Here in NY, I would say it depends.
> 
> If I am romantically interested in a guy, I will let him pay for the first several dates, and then once we are more established as a couple, we will take turns paying as the situation and our relative economic situations allow.


 
This is interesting.    I would say, men and women on their first few date may just pay seperately. As you say, Women do not want to leave a "wrong implication" to allow men take the bill.

So, the order is a bit different here. We pay seperately first. While the relationship has been confirmed/established, woman would allow man to carry the bill.


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## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> Some people don't want to be treated like a delicate flower just because they were born a woman. Some women want to be treated like everyone else. Many of these "gentlemenly" traditions are rooted in sexism, relics of the time when women were almost always financially-dependent and emotionally, physically, and intellectually weaker than men. It made sense for men to open doors first, to pay for dates, etc. Nowadays the practice of "chivalry" just works to reinforce gender roles (the knight protecting the helpless damsel-in-distress), reversing the progress in gender equality feminism has made in the past 50 years.



But I hold open the door for *anyone* approaching me if I get there first. it is not sexism, it is common courtesy. The same goes for standing when someone enters the room - it was inculcated in me that I should offer my seat to *anyone* who enters a room. This went with being taught that if *I* was offered a seat I should only take it if I was in real need of it, i.e. in physical distresss of some description. My 'chivalry' as you call it extends to everyone.

As I pointed out earlier, men usually pay for the first few dates, and that may well be down to the fact that it is generally they who propose those dates. If someone - of whatever gender - were to ask me out to the cinema I would expect them to make it clear if they were not prepared to pay.


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## iheartflutes

My personal opinion, which you can take lightly, would be that whomever asks would be the one to pay for the expenses. If the man asks, the woman, then the man pays. If the woman asks the man, then the woman pays. It seems to me that that would be the ethical way to do it, mostly because the person who didn't ask to go out may have financial problems that would make them unable to pay in certain situations. Maybe this is culturally wrong, but I think that this is the way that it should work in a perfect world.

Best wishes,

--iheartflutes


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## vince

maxiogee said:
			
		

> But I hold open the door for *anyone* approaching me if I get there first. it is not sexism, it is common courtesy. The same goes for standing when someone enters the room - it was inculcated in me that I should offer my seat to *anyone* who enters a room. This went with being taught that if *I* was offered a seat I should only take it if I was in real need of it, i.e. in physical distresss of some description. My 'chivalry' as you call it extends to everyone.
> 
> As I pointed out earlier, men usually pay for the first few dates, and that may well be down to the fact that it is generally they who propose those dates. If someone - of whatever gender - were to ask me out to the cinema I would expect them to make it clear if they were not prepared to pay.



Great, that's actually how I approach it too. I try to be courteous and well-mannered in front of both men and women. The problem I have is when people insist on doing polite things just because the person was born female. So I guess your manners aren't the ones I am criticizing.

I agree with iheartflutes, the one who asks should be the one who pays. Since she/he is the one who is doing the inviting.


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## klbyrd

I agree with iheartflutes as well. Whoever is the one who asks for the date should be the one to pay for it. I also have had occasions where I have been asked on a date and have had my son invited to go along. In this case I always feel obliged to pay for my son, but generally it ends up that the man pays because, as they say, he invited us. 

Either way, common courtesy should be used on all people you meet, not just to make an impression. I teach my son to open a car door for women, open a door at a store for anyone, and all of the other courtisies one is capable of getting a 13 year old boy to do

klbyrd


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## FrancescaVR

There are women who are so "liberated" as to denigrate anyone who opens a door for them, or anyone who stands up when they enter a room, and all the other little courtesies I was brought up to practice. That sort of woman can buy her own cup of coffee! [/quote]
=======================================================

I like those little coutesies though, with no wish or mean to denigrate anyone. At the same time, I'd like to buy the male the cuppa! That if I can efford to  . If I can, I'd have to like him first


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## Valmar

CrazyIvan said:
			
		

> Situation comes more clear to an tendency to share, or even further to a situation that, "who earns more is the one who pays" situation in my generation. But still that women would sometimes hand over the money and let the man go to the counter to pay the bill, for a public image that the man is the one who pays.


 
Something that has happened to me way too many times... When my boyfriend was unemployed we would go to have dinner at a restaurant and I would pay. It was OK with me and it was OK with him too. But apparently it was not OK with the waiter/waitress. After I gave them the money, when they returned with the change, they would hand it over directly to him, even if they knew they had received the money from me.


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## maxiogee

Oh yes, I know that.
My wife often hands over *her* credit card to the waiter/waitress and yet the print-out will be returned to me for signing.
We have noticed recently that some of them take a sly look as they return and check whose name is on the card.


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## Arianllyn

I personally like the idea of the man paying for the first, then alternating for further dates - then each person gets to treat the other. Seems more romantic on both sides!


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## Etcetera

In Russia, it is generally accepted that if a man invites a woman to a restaurant/cafe, he will pay the bill. Younger people may prefer to pay for themselves separately.


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## Lusitania

maxiogee said:


> Oh yes, I know that.
> My wife often hands over *her* credit card to the waiter/waitress and yet the print-out will be returned to me for signing.
> We have noticed recently that some of them take a sly look as they return and check whose name is on the card.


 

That used to happen often here as well. However, it has been changing as they now usually leave the bill on the middle of the table.

The man usually pay the first and maybe second and then we share. I personally try to share it always but if he insists too much, the next time I will invite him and pay myself.

I also think depends if it's dating, friendship or a more serious relationship. With a boyfriend or friends I would definately share. While dating it really depends on the person, but he will usually pay the first one.


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## Victoria32

Shmily said:


> Hello people  I 'd like to know if in your country, during a dating, who pays more for the common expenses, per example: for going to cinema, restaurant, taxi...etc
> 
> In my country China, generally men pay almost all. And it's considered as usual, if i take a taxi with my boyfriend, and both of us wanna to pay the taxist, the taxist will accept first his money since 'it's his responsability to pay for me'.
> 
> Just curious.^^Sorry for my bad english.
> 
> Best Wishes!!!


I find it depends on the age of the couple... men in the Baby boomer generation (1946-64) have been through feminism and out the otjher side, and have reacted often _against_ it... often by acting two different ways - insisting on paying, or often sayong "you wanted equality, _you_ pay". If I propose the date, I pay... otherwise, he pays first, I pay second etc...


badgrammar said:


> Keep doing it, Max, many of us still appreciate gentlemen...
> 
> I think who pays depends on a lot of things - what kind of outing, etc.  But atleast in France, I think men will always pay for the first few outings - although it is probably quite common that the woman offers to pick up the tab for some things.  For example, he may pay for the meal, but she will grab the check for the after dinner drinks, and insist on paying.
> 
> Also depends on each person's income.  If the woman makes lot more money than the man, and both are aware of it, she may graciously insist on paying.
> 
> But still it goes back to tradition, the niceties that make us say "Vive la différence"!  I suppose some women take advantage of this and never even attempt to pay for anything, but most of the gals I know enjoy the pleasure of paying sometimes.  And it is a pleasure to invite someone.  Some guys may have a hard time accepting that at first, but if you insist, then it gives them a turn to feel pampered for a change (and shows them you're not just there for a free meal!)


I agree!


ElaineG said:


> ................
> Unfortunately, some men believe that they have _paid for something in return_ by buying you dinner, and it is best to avoid those misunderstandings where possible!


So true! Which is why in previous years, my woman friends and I decided on paying for ourselves, to avoid just those misundertandings...


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## übermönch

It's usually the one who invites, or, if it's kind of show-off meeting, everyone pays for oneself. It is allways useful to know some close relative of the owner of the local pub or the owner her-/him-self, b'cause in this case nobody pays!


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## Hutschi

Hi, I live in Dresden, Germany.

Traditionally, the man paid. But the tradition changed, and now very often everybody pays for himself during the first time. 

Later, in family, very often, the man pays, but also the wife pays in older families, --- in younger families, it may be different.

In Groups, often everybody pays for himself,  but sometimes the first one pays in the first restaurant, the second in the second and so on.


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## Victoria32

übermönch said:


> It's usually the one who invites, or, if it's kind of show-off meeting, everyone pays for oneself. It is allways useful to know some close relative of the owner of the local pub or the owner her-/him-self, b'cause in this case nobody pays!


But does that happen often?


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## Poetic Device

In my area it seems that the man pays for the first five or so dates, then it's quasi shared then the guy says he left his wallet at home then marries you and then the woman pays for everything.


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## Inguca

Someone told me that if you went on a date in New York and left the man to pay the bill, you were implicitly accepting that you would have sex afterwards... Is that true?


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## Lusitania

Inguca, that's not only in NY. I think that it's implicit in many countries as part of a courship. Many times it seems that by paying they are expecting more than dinner


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## ernest_

Hi there!

In Catalonia when, say, two couples meet together and go to a restaurant, it is customary that the males, at the end, engage in a "fight" in order to pay the bill. It can be very amusing to see. Some take advantage of their opponent being in the bathroom to pay, others instruct the waiter not to take the other man's money and others just start shouting at each other that they are entitled to pay and that they will not tolerate anyone preventing them from doing so. Despite all the hand waving it is understood that in the long run everybody should pay more or less equally, though. Is that kind of behaviour seen in your country? How does one arrange things when it comes to pay the bill in a restaurant in your country?


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## alexacohen

Well, the same happens in Andalucía. And in Galicia. But not exclusively as a "male" thing. The female part of the couple may wave her credit card too.
But the rule is "I pay today, you'll pay tomorrow" if two couples go to dinner together (we're talking about friends, I assume). If there are more people, each one pays for their own dinner.


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## elizabeth_b

In Mexico it's usually:

- If it's someones bithday, the bill is divided amongst the friends and the birthday person is the guest.

- The same happens if you're in a friends dinner, or each one pays it's own bill or the total is divided amongst the presents.

- The same happens with two couples unless one couple invites the other. 

If one of the couples offers to pay the bill, usually the other will say "ok, but the next time we invite you"

At least I haven't seen quarrels or discussions because of this. But I'm talking in general, there may be discussions from time to time 

P.S.  In business dinners usually providers offers to pay the bill.  I haven't seen big discussions because of this.


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## Bilma

elizabeth_b said:


> In Mexico it's usually:
> 
> - If it's someones bithday, the bill is divided amongst the friends and the birthday person is the guest.
> 
> - The same happens if you're in a friends dinner, or each one pays it's own bill or the total is divided amongst the presents.
> 
> - The same happens with two couples unless one couple invites the other.
> 
> If one of the couples offers to pay the bill, usually the other will say "ok, but the next time we invite you"
> 
> At least I haven't seen quarrels or discussions because of this. But I'm talking in general, there may be discussions from time to time
> 
> P.S. In business dinners usually providers offers to pay the bill. I haven't seen big discussions because of this.


 

And

-In a date the man is supposed to pay , at least the first ones. Then it varies.


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## LaReinita

Yeah, I believe it is customary for the man to pay for the first few dates, because as someone stated earlier . . usually the men are the ones who ask the women out on the dates, so it makes sense.  I've been with my boyfriend for a long time, and at this point, it's whichever one of us has money with us or alternating if we both do, unless of course it is a birthday or special event of some sort.  I must say though that if I'm paying in cash, I do give it to my boyfriend beforehand to make it look as though he is paying!


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## Bilma

LaReinita said:


> . I must say though that if I'm paying in cash, I do give it to my boyfriend beforehand to make it look as though he is paying!


 

Stupid but I do the same with my husband!


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## elizabeth_b

maxiogee said:


> Men generally pay for the first few dates. After that it is expected that either expenses will be shared, or that the woman would begin to pay for some of the outings.
> 
> There are women who are so "liberated" as to denigrate anyone who opens a door for them, or anyone who stands up when they enter a room, and all the other little courtesies I was brought up to practice. That sort of woman can buy her own cup of coffee!


 
Personally I love gentlemen and of course I love courtesies.  Of course I think there's a need to understand that with the present global financial situation people suffers trying to administrate each month expenses (unless you're rich).  So, coming back to the main issue in this thread, I think that's natural trying to keep the courtesies in the first dates and after that split the bills.  

About being liberated and denigrating those who have courtesies, my personal feeling is that you can feel completely liberate and be at the same time polite and gentle.  There's no need to be rude with someone that is having a deference with you.

E.B.


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## divisortheory

Whoever invites the other person out should pay. Usually a guy invites a girl out for the first time, but not always. Women that translate into "Well I'll just never invite him out, I'll just wait for him to invite me" wouldn't make it past 2 or 3 dates with me. I'm not here to pamper or spoil anyone, I'm here to treat people as my equals.  If someone didn't treat me as their equal I would be offended, as such I will treat others as my equal as well, regardless of their sex.


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## ayupshiplad

In the UK it seems to be like most other countries previously talked about...

On the first few dates a guy will pay...paying separately is _horrendous_ though! Either one person pays, or you just chuck in some money that will roughly cover your food and drinks and a tip instead of going through the bill finding out how much people spent...I would rather a man expect me to pay than that! 

Whenever I go out with one of my male friends he _always _pays. I'll put down a tip, but apart from that he pays for absolutely everything. And he certainly is not obliged to either!


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## samanthalee

ernest_ said:


> Hi there!
> 
> In Catalonia when, say, two couples meet together and go to a restaurant, it is customary that the males, at the end, engage in a "fight" in order to pay the bill. It can be very amusing to see.



Among the older generation of Chinese, "fights" only breaks out when it's a family dinner (with grandparents and uncles and cousins and nephews..the whole lot) or some other big gathering. However the art of this is to _appear_ as if you are fighting to pay when in fact you are _trying_ to wiggle out of paying.

If two couples meet, the males will split the bill between themselves. Whether the bill is further split with the females depends on the individual males.

That said, it's acceptable for couples to go dutch nowadays. But most males still insist on paying and it's so tiring to argue with them over who's paying, so I'll let the males pay if they want to.


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## SilasR

Do somebody know how is it in Brazilia? A women from there told me, the man has always to pay for everything, otherwise there won't be any love. Is that also very individual or is it different in this country?


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## Vanda

SilasR said:


> Do somebody know how is it in Brazil? A women from there told me, the man has always to pay for everything, otherwise there won't be any love. Is that also very individual or is it different in this country?



Ahem, she is being a little emphatic, things are changing nowadays. Traditionally when a woman goes out with a man he is expected to pay for everything. Modern couples though - but not many - are splitting the bills, but we do prefer the old way! We call it cavalheirismo (being a gentleman) - guys don't be mad at our special view of cavalheirismo - as well as waiting for him to open the door of the car (I confess we rarely see this today).


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## Macunaíma

When I started going out with my girlfriend I would pick up the bill every time but now we basically take turns. Sometimes I have to _remind _her when it's her turn to pay. She orders a fancy drink, as usual, and I ask: "Are you aware that this time is on _you_?"  

It's a very natural thing here among people my age, I think. We are all broke most of the time.

P.S: I totally agree with ayupshiplad. Checking through the bill to find out how much each one spent is just _horrible_. Anything is better than that!


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