# denn



## screamerer

Hallo, ..


Is _denn_ only used to express reasons? Can we use it to make statements that's rather explanatory to or extending what's been already mentioned in the previous sentence? (perhaps even trying to just base something off of the statement before, so the _*denn *_ continuation is then being told in light of what's already been said.)

For example:

_*Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich kann mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.*_

In this sentence, I try to talk about a course of action that's possibly to unfold when I meet with her - no reasons are given here.


Is this usage correct?


Please note I'm not asking for a proofread, I'm mainly investigating a concept here. Thanks.

Danke.


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## Kajjo

_ Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich kann mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.
_
Nein, die Verwendung von "denn" ist hier nicht korrekt.
_
Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, um mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise zu sprechen.
Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, weil ich mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen möchte.
Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, um mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise zu sprechen.
_
Es müsste schon ein Grund angegeben werden:
_
Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffe, denn nur heute abend kann ich mit ihr über ihre Reise sprechen.
Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffe, denn nur mit ihr kann ich über die Indien-Reise sprechen.

_


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## Perseas

Kajjo said:


> _Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, weil ich mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen möchte.
> _


If the above is correct, shouldn't be also this correct?
_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich möchte mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._


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## elroy

Perseas said:


> _Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich möchte_ mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.


Yes, that's fine.

I think the original sentence would work with a little modification:

_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so könnte ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._


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## screamerer

Hi, berndf.

You say you're not sure anymore: do you mean my sentence above could have some rationale to it? Or do you still think it's wrong but are not sure as to why it is so?

Danke schön.


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## berndf

It means that I wasn't sure my answer was correct and I therefore deleted it.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> _ Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich kann mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.
> _
> Nein, die Verwendung von "denn" ist hier nicht korrekt.





Kajjo said:


> Es müsste schon ein Grund angegeben werden:


I completely agree that the sentence is _wrong _(in just about any definition of the word). What I am pondering about for a while not is _why? _The sentence does state a reason and therefore your response cannot be right.

My thinking is around the distinction between _causal_ and _final_ reasons because _denn _can only express final and not causal reasons. But that doesn't solve the problem either because all of the modifications proposed so far


Kajjo said:


> _Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffe, denn nur heute abend kann ich mit ihr über ihre Reise sprechen.
> Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffe, denn nur mit ihr kann ich über die Indien-Reise sprechen._





elroy said:


> Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so könnte ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.


don't differ in this respect. The original sentence and all the corrected sentences express final reasons.

The only difference I can see is that the corrected versions all flag the reason as hypothetical, Elroy's through the use of KII and Kajjo's through the addition of _nur_-clauses. I that really all there is as a difference?


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## elroy

My feeling about the original sentence is that it doesn't express a clear enough connection with the first part. "Ich kann mit ihr..." sounds like a general statement.

I think the crucial part of my modification is not the mood of the verb but the addition of "so" which clearly links the two parts of the sentence.  The same applies to Kajjo's sentences.  All three sentences give a clear reason as to why the speaker specifically wants *to meet with Paula today*.

_Ich will mich *heute *mit Paula treffe, denn *nur heute abend *kann ich mit ihr über ihre Reise sprechen.
Ich will mich heute *mit Paula* treffe, denn* nur mit ihr *kann ich über die Indien-Reise sprechen.
Ich will *mich *heute mit Paula *treffen*, denn *so *könnte ich mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._

In each sentence, I've bolded the parts that go together.

In the original sentence, it's not clear why wanting to meet with Paula tonight is linked to being able to speak with her about the trip.

In English, too, "I want to meet with Paula tonight because I can talk to her about her trip" is totally unidiomatic.  It begs the question: If you can _already_ talk to her about her trip, then why meet with her tonight?  What is it that meeting with her tonight will give you?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> My feeling about the original sentence is that it doesn't express a clear enough connection with the first part. "Ich kann mit ihr..." sounds like a general statement.
> 
> I think the crucial part of my modification is not the mood of the verb but the addition of "so" which clearly links the two parts of the sentence. The same applies to Kajjo's sentences.


Indeed. You solved by problem. Your correction even works without KII:
_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so kann ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._
is perfectly alright.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> _Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so kann ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._
> is perfectly alright.


 Exactly!  I was thinking the same thing as I was composing my post.


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## screamerer

Hallo,

Just a thought: We agreed that,
_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so kann ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen_,

Solved the problem as it established the required connection - I can intutively understand that, no questions asked. But then, why is it that when _*kann*_ in the original statement is replaced with *muss*, the interpretation of the *denn* part is then genuinely confined to being understood as in context of the first part, without the need to use linking particles/phrases as in:
_
denn _*nur heute abend..*, _denn_* nur mit ihr..*,_ denn* so..*_?

That is,
_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich *muss* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen._
is totally fine, as _*muss*_ there is taken to scope the context set by the first part sentence, and the connection required is already there - why not so with *kann*?


Danke.


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## Frieder

Ich will mich mit Paula treffen, denn ich *kann *mit ihr über die Reise sprechen ...
doesn't make much sense -> I will meet Paula because I'm able to talk to her about the journey 

OK, one possibility: She's the only one to whom I am able to talk. But then you should rephrase it:

Ich will mich mit Paula treffen, denn nur mit ihr *kann *ich über die Reise sprechen ...


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## elroy

The second part of the sentence is meant to justify what is expressed in the first part: the speaker's interest in meeting with Paula today.

_Ich muss mit Paula über ihre Reise sprechen.  Ich will mich mit Paula treffen. 
Ich kann mit Paula über ihre Reise sprechen.  Ich will mich mit Paula treffen. _

 = therefore 

The first one makes sense; the second one does not.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> The second part of the sentence is meant to justify what is expressed in the first part: the speaker's interest in meeting with Paula today.
> 
> _Ich muss mit Paula über ihre Reise sprechen.  Ich will mich mit Paula treffen.
> Ich kann mit Paula über ihre Reise sprechen.  Ich will mich mit Paula treffen. _
> 
> = therefore
> 
> The first one makes sense; the second one does not.


I don't understand your point here. I thought we agreed that


berndf said:


> Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn *so kann ich* mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.


was perfectly OK and that just the linkage was insufficient, if you omitted _so_. What doesn't make sense?


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## elroy

To say that "ich will mich mit Paula treffen" because "ich kann mit ihr über ihre Reise sprechen" doesn't make sense.

This is the same as saying that the original sentence without "so" is not acceptable.

"So" expresses why the interest in meeting with Paula is justified.  Without "so" there is insufficient justification.

I was trying to explain things for screamerer's benefit.  He was wondering why "muss" on its own is sufficient but "kann" on its own is not.  "Muss" is sufficient because it expresses the justification.  The interest in meeting with Paula is justified because the speaker _has to _speak with her.  In the "so kann" scenario, the interest in meeting with Paula is justified because the speaker can speak with her _by meeting with her_.  In the "kann" scenario, the interest in meeting with Paula is not justified.  To quote Frieder, " I will meet Paula because I'm able to talk to her about the journey ."


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## berndf

elroy said:


> "So" expresses why the interest in meeting with Paula is justified. Without "so" there is insufficient justification.


I still can't follow you. _Denn_ expresses a final reason in the sense of a _motivation_. It does not require any _justification_.

I would say the _so _is necessary because the mere fact of a possibility to talk to her can serve as motivation for meet her but also for the opposite as in:
_Ich brauche heute nicht zu ihr zu gehen, denn ich kann ja später immer noch mit ihr sprechen._

Maybe we mean essentially the same thing but arguing in terms of _justification_ just doesn't fit the semantics of _denn_.


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## elroy

What I meant by "justifiable" was "nachvollziehbar" (a great German word that doesn't have a good English equivalent!). "Ich kann mit ihr sprechen" ist kein _nachvollziehbarer_ Grund für den Wunsch, sich mit ihr zu treffen.

To take an extreme example, the original sentence would work in a situation in which Paula has been refusing to speak with anyone for weeks.  She hasn't been letting anyone come see her or contact her in any other way.  One day, I hear from a friend that she is finally starting to talk to people.  In that situation I might say "Ich will mich mit ihr treffen, denn ich kann (endlich) mit ihr sprechen!"  In this situation, the very fact that it is at all possible to speak with her justifies/explains the interest in meeting with her.

Or let's say she used to be deaf, so no one could speak to her, and now she has regained her hearing.  The sentence would work in that context as well.

The unlikeliness of these two scenarios shows why the vast majority of the time, the original sentence does not work.

To put it another way, for the original sentence to work, the speaker's ability to speak with her has to be independent of his desire to meet with her, and his ability to speak with her (in general) has to constitute a valid reason to want to meet with her.  Again, to compare this with "muss," the speaker's obligation to speak with her is independent of his interest in meeting with her and it constitutes a valid reason to want to meet with her.

In our context (assuming it is not an unlikely scenario like the ones I described above), the reason for the speaker's interest in meeting with her is not that he is generally able to speak with her.  He is only able to speak with her under certain circumstances.  With "so" the implication is that meeting with her is one of the ways he can speak with her, thus constituting a valid reason for his interest in meeting with her.


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## screamerer

Hallo, ..

I just want to make sure I understand what has been just said here:

In,
*Ich brauche heute nicht zu ihr zu gehen, denn ich kann ja später immer noch mit ihr sprechen.*,

the _*so*_ is not needed in the *denn*-_*kann*_ part as there is no action-extent to relate to (the _nicht_ effect) produced by the first part.. .

But in the original sentence I asked about above, we needed _*so*_ to relate to the changed state - the new reality - produced by the action in the first sentence. Otherwise, the reasoning/motivation presented by *denn* and *kann* combined would sound disconnected (from where the first part ended) and more on the casual side, ..right?



Danke.


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## Kajjo

_ Ich brauche heute nicht zu ihr zu gehen, denn ich kann ja später immer noch mit ihr sprechen.,_

Ja, richtig.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> What I meant...


So we essentially say the same: _Ich kann..._ opens to many possibilities to allow a _denn _without further qualification?


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I think there is a difference between "denn" and "weil". In German I'd say "weil" indicates a Grund or Ursache, while "denn" can indicate a "Begründung".


Grund/Ursache = cause, (objective) reason
Begründung = justification, explanation

So I cannot say:
Ich denke, es regnet, weil die Straße nass ist. ("Weil" refers to raining)
but it has to be
Ich denke, die Straße ist nass, weil es regnet.
I think, it is raining because the street is wet. - this must be I think the street is wet because it is raining.



But I can say:
Ich denke, es regnet, denn die Straße ist nass.
I think, it is raining, I think so, because the street is wet.
Or "Weil die Straße nass ist, denke ich, dass es regnet." ("Weil" refers to thinking)


So essentially your first sentence may be correct, if you want to explain rather than give reasons.

_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, denn ich kann mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise sprechen.
I want to meet Paula today, I can possibly speak with her about her last trip._
If you just want to give an explanation this is correct. Usually you would use it in colloquial language.

If you want to give a cause, you have to say
_Ich will mich heute mit Paula treffen, um mit ihr über ihre letzte Reise zu sprechen. _As Kajjo stated in #2)
You can use this also in formal language.


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## screamerer

Hallo, ..

Thanks, Hutschi - very useful (and open-minded).

Danke.


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## screamerer

This whole impression of _*denn*_ not being confined to only expressing reasons - and hence my question about that sentence above, I had seeing as how the word can function adverbially in sentences to kind of sustain a mood or context set by a previous statement:

“Hey, ich muss dir was erzählen.”
“Was *denn*?”
“Hey ich habe heute 100 Euro gefunden.”
“Oh, wo *denn*?”
“Auf der Strasse vor meinem Haus.”
“Lädtst du mich *denn* auf ein Bier ein.”
“Klar.”
*Source*: http://yourdailygerman.com/2012/09/13/denn-meaning/

Which is to say, not necessarily/only for justification.. .


Vielen Dank für alle.


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## Hutschi

Hi, in these cases "denn" is a flavoring particle expressing Neugierde curiousness.
It is a kind of intensifier.

Was denn? = What +(I really want to know it. Please tell me.)
Wo denn? = Where +(I really want to kwow it. Please tell me.)

“Lädst du mich *denn* auf ein Bier ein?” (Question)
"Would you invite me to drink a glass of beer?" + (I cannot expect that you do it, but it would really be nice/kind of you.)

The real meaning in conversation depends on intonation and situation, of course.

You could omit the particle without changing the meaning, but you definitely change the style. It becomes coarser and more impolite in many cases.


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## Kajjo

_denn_: Adverb, Konjunktion, Partikel... bitte unterscheiden! Siehe Duden.de oder Canoo.net.


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## Ali Smith

What about in this context?

Weil also jetzt der Hilfeschrei der Israeliten zu mir gekommen ist und ich auch gesehen habe, wie schwer die Ägypter sie unterdrücken, so geh jetzt! Denn ich will dich zum Pharao schicken. Führe mein Volk, die Israeliten, aus Ägypten heraus!

My translation: Because therefore now the cry for help of the Israelites has come to me and I have also seen how heavily the Egyptians suppress them, so go now! Because I will send you to Pharaoh. Lead my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt!

Thanks!


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## διαφορετικός

Ali Smith said:


> Denn ich will dich zum Pharao schicken.


In this conntext, you can translate "denn" with "because", indeed.


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## Hutschi

I think, it is possible. "Because" includes weil, denn and many more. Source: because | Übersetzung Englisch-Deutsch

"Denn" does not ask for cause but for reason (es fragt nicht nach der Ursache, sondern nach dem Zweck). The question is _What for,_ rather than _because of what base?_

 I would prefer, however:
_Since I will send you to Pharaoh.  _

Note: I am not a native English speaker. So there may be better solutions.


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## Schlabberlatz

Ali Smith said:


> My translation: Because therefore now the cry for help of the Israelites has come to me and I have also seen how heavily the Egyptians suppress them, so go now! Because I will send you to Pharaoh. Lead my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt!


I think "for" is the best option in this context:


> Wörterbuch v1 Englisch-Deutsch © WordReference.com 2012:
> *denn*
> 
> I konj
> 1. begründend: because, since, *for*
> 
> denn - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com


It’s a coordinating conjunction, just like "denn":


> conj
> 
> (coordinating) for the following reason; because; seeing that: I couldn't stay, for the area was violent
> for - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
> (Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers)


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## διαφορετικός

I didn't mention "for" because wiktionary calls it "literary".


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## Schlabberlatz

διαφορετικός said:


> I didn't mention "for" because wiktionary calls it "literary".


Right, but the text at hand sounds literary, doesn’t it? And I think that using a coordinating conjunction in that place is simply the best solution, but I’m not a native speaker of English. What Is a Coordinating Conjunction?


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## διαφορετικός

Schlabberlatz said:


> Right, but the text at hand sounds literary, doesn’t it?


Yes, it fits the excerpt from the Bible, introduced by @Ali Smith. I was not aware of this.


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## Wasdas

What is also interesting in this regards is the difference between the usage of "denn" and "weil", both meaning "bcause". One however is introducing a subordinate clause whereas the other one is introducing a coordinating clause 

You can read more on this here: 
weil vs. denn

Hope that helps


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