# religious myths evolution



## Ana Raquel

Hi
Following the idea thrown by Benjy here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=105033
we could dicuss the evolution of ancient myths that repeat from religion to religion till ending appearing in the present religions like the resurrection myth, virgin birth, the hero, the Flood, the fight between bad brother and the evil brother, and also a discussion about how the names of the main characters evolved, e.g.from the Sumerian 'Ziusudra' till the biblical 'Noah' .

What information do you have about all of this?


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## Zahab

hello

ok for me the resurrection is not  a mith, is a huge truth (for me), this are topic of discussion, and all of these have scientific proove, for example where is the tomb of christ, and where are his  bones this is mistery that have only one meaning resurrection.

many jews do not beleive in resurrection, because pharisee paid money to the roman soldier that was at the time that Jesus wake up from the death, the soldier went to the pharisee and the pharisee told him that he have to tell to the people that his disciples took the body, this idea creates a concept into jews, many jews think that the disciples of Jesus took the body and he did not resurrected from the death.

excuse me for my english.
thank you.


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## fenixpollo

Your English is good, Zahab, and understandable. I'll offer some suggestions.





			
				Zahab said:
			
		

> hello
> 
> ok. for me, the resurrection is not a myth. It is a huge truth (for me). This is a topic of discussion, and all of this has scientific proof, for example where is the tomb of christ, and where are his bones? This is mystery that has only one meaning: resurrection.
> 
> many jews do not beleive in resurrection, because the pharisee paid money to the roman soldier that was there at the time that Jesus woke up from the death. The soldier went to the pharisee and the pharisee told him that he had to tell to the people that his disciples took the body. This idea created a concept among the jews. Many jews think that the disciples of Jesus took the body and he was not resurrected from the death.


 Ana Raquel, Zahab's reply illustrates two problems with the way that you posed your question:

1) believers will misunderstand your use of the word "myth" to dispel misconceptions about their religion;
2) believers will be offended by your use of the word "myth" to refer to ideas that they hold as truth. 

What you or I call a "creation myth" or a "creation story" is, for the person that believes it, actually the truth of the creation of the universe. What for you is the "flood story" that occurs in many religions is a unique and cherished historical fact in each, separate religion. 

I love Benjy's challenge and I would love to hear some new ideas. However, the way you've phrased your questions is probably going to elicit more of the same old, same old...


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## cuchuflete

> we could dicuss the evolution of ancient myths that repeat from religion to religion


Zahab-  It's very fine for you to believe that something is not a myth.  The point of this thread is clearly not for people to declare, with however much sincerity, what they believe to be true.  It is not a platform for proselytizing!

We have had lots and lots of threads in which people declare their truths.  Benjy's thread, and Ana Raquel's request, are for us to stop repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating....

If you or anyone else wishes to address the topic in post #1, please feel free to do so.  If you want to proclaim the truth according to your own heartfelt religious beliefs, please find a religion forum where such conversations are appropriate.

I say this not as a moderator, but as a fellow forero who is bored to tears by the constant attempts to use this forum as a means to declare, proclaim, and generally spout religioius 'verities' in any and all available threads.


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## Zahab

thank you
cuchuflete i will take care of this, and i am very sorry about this incident, i apologie to the foreros in this thread, i will follow the forum rules in a better way, excuse me and thank you.





			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Zahab-  It's very fine for you to believe that something is not a myth.  The point of this thread is clearly not for people to declare, with however much sincerity, what they believe to be true.  It is not a platform for proselytizing!
> 
> We have had lots and lots of threads in which people declare their truths.  Benjy's thread, and Ana Raquel's request, are for us to stop repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating....
> 
> If you or anyone else wishes to address the topic in post #1, please feel free to do so.  If you want to proclaim the truth according to your own heartfelt religious beliefs, please find a religion forum where such conversations are appropriate.
> 
> I say this not as a moderator, but as a fellow forero who is bored to tears by the constant attempts to use this forum as a means to declare, proclaim, and generally spout religioius 'verities' in any and all available threads.


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## Ana Raquel

Hi Zahab


			
				Zahab said:
			
		

> ok for me the resurrection is not a mith, is a huge truth (for me), this are topic of discussion, and all of these have scientific proove, for example where is the tomb of christ, and where are his bones this is mistery that have only one meaning resurrection.


 
yes, you are focusing in one religion but the resurrection narration appears in other religions like the ancient Egypt, being Osiris the main character. 

That is what I intend, to trace the main narrations and see in which religions they appear, not focusing in our personal beliefs, I mean, you take as huge truth the resurrection of Christ but you don't do that in the case of Osiris, do you? I assume the Osiris case is a myth for you, a legend, isn't it?

Let me know if I offend you in any way so that we can clarify every point and we can talk and share information.


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## Zahab

i did not know about the resurrection of osiris, but before post anything in this thread first i will investigate in proper way the topic of this forum, do not worry about the incident i accept in a good way all the forum rules.

thank you.


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## Ana Raquel

Hi Fenixpollo
please, choose the words that suit best, stories, narrations, beliefs, examples, symbols, metaphors, others, ..

_fenixpollo:  believers will misunderstand your use of the word "myth" to dispel misconceptions about their religion. _
Believers in what? I am suggesting a revision of the narrations that repeat in the religions from the oldest civilizations till today, not only one religion.


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## Residente Calle 13

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Hi
> Following the idea thrown by Benjy here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=105033
> we could dicuss the evolution of ancient myths that repeat from religion to religion till ending appearing in the present religions...


My "religion" (I'm a Jedi) has a lot of these. Anakin Skywalker has no biological father and is the "one" who according the prophecy is sent to "save the world" which is a motif that comes up often (See Neo in _The Matrix_). And of course, these heroes only triumph when they forego objective reality and enter another realm. Neo takes the the pill and Luke uses the force.

I think these are reflections of past motifs in other religions.


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## Ana Raquel

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> My "religion" (I'm a Jedi) has a lot of these. Anakin Skywalker has no biological father and is the "one" who according the prophecy is sent to "save the world" which is a motif that comes up often (See Neo in _The Matrix_). And of course, these heroes only triumph when they forego objective reality and enter another realm. Neo takes the the pill and Luke uses the force.
> 
> I think these are reflections of past motifs in other religions.


wow you are mentioning a lot of topics here! 
we had the resurrection mentioned by Zahab, and now we have the no father/virginal birth, the one-ness, the saviour/hero the prophecy/messegership. 
What is the another realm? I don't know how say it as symbol, what does it symbolise?


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## fenixpollo

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Believers in what? I am suggesting a revision of the narrations that repeat in the religions from the oldest civilizations till today, not only one religion.


 Believers in any religion.  Christians will take offense if you suggest that Jesus' resurrection is a myth; Ancient Egyptians will take offense if you suggest that Osiris' resurrection is a myth.  Here's a site (link) in which the author explains how *religion = myth*.

If you suggest that, for example, Moses' story is very, very similar to the stories of Romulus, Bacchus, Osiris and Sargon, then you call into question the truth of many of those stories, because some of them claim to be God's holy word.  If you paint all of these stories as mere recombinations of older stories -- copies from other religions -- then you call into doubt the legitimacy of all of the religions in question.

However, as far as I'm concerned we're just talking about semantics, because the goal of your question, no matter how it's phrased, is the same: to discover the commonalities between the beliefs and stories of different religions.  Right?

There are lots of sites on the internet that discuss commonalities among various types of stories (link) , including creation stories (link).  Enjoy


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## Outsider

You can't have a discussion about the evolution of religious myths (or religious stories, to use a, hopefully, less controversial term) without mentioning the Sumerian Flood Story. Here's an interesting comparison between the Babylonian flood stories and the Biblical deluge.

_When the gods created man, they alloted to him death, 
but life they retained in their own keeping. 
As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; 
day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. 
_
Siduri, _The Epic of Gilgamesh_.


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## Ana Raquel

_fenixpollo: If you paint all of these stories as mere recombinations of older stories -- copies from other religions -- then you call into doubt the legitimacy of all of the religions in question_.
I don't call into doubt the legitimacy of those religions even if they are copies because the lessons included in them still work as guidance. 

_fenixpollo: However, as far as I'm concerned we're just talking about semantics, because the goal of your question, no matter how it's phrased, is the same: to discover the commonalities between the beliefs and stories of different religions. Right?_ 
That and their meanings if some forero knows something. Of course we can search on the net as with every topic, and your links are very interesting, but we can share summaries and tell in short what we know, besides, not everybody agrees on the equivalence of the stories, you mentioned Moses as the equivalent of Osiris and this reminds me of the prophets in general, Osiris can represent any messenger, not only Moses, it's an example of a possible discussion. 

If we restrict us just to searching the net we can't practise writing English anymore, just reading skills but discussing is more entertaining.


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## LV4-26

There are of lots of myths in which a member of the community is found guilty of some dreadful sin (incest, parricide,...) and is chased and finally killed by the community. In most of them, the death of that "criminal" brings back peace and harmony in the group and therefore, from an evil creature that "criminal" becomes a benevolent and powerful God.

It's the same old story in the story of Job or in the Passion of Christ. Only, this time, the story is told from the point of view of the so-called criminal which turns out to be a real scapegoat. The same story but seen from a new angle : the revelation that the scapegoat is actually innocent, that the crowd needed to believe in his culpability, to be all united against one person in order to restore harmony in their society. 

In a pure myth (i.e. told from the point of view of the persecutors), Job and Christ would still be guilty.
In Christian religion, not only Job and Christ are innocent but Oedipus is also proved innocent at the same time.


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## Residente Calle 13

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> wow you are mentioning a lot of topics here!
> we had the resurrection mentioned by Zahab, and now we have the no father/virginal birth, the one-ness, the saviour/hero the prophecy/messegership.
> What is the another realm? I don't know how say it as symbol, what does it symbolise?


Yes, the ancient Jedi reiligion from a long time ago in a galaxy far away has a great deal of recurring motifs.

As he approaches the Death Star, the ghostly voice of Ben Kenobi tells Luke to turn of his computer and use "the force" to guide him. He has to abandon the scientific realm and enter the realm of the supernatural. In other words, foresake science for faith. Nobody get's what he's doing. They think something is wrong. It doesn't make sense to them. But the force is more powerful than what makes sense. It's the glue that holds the universe together.

This idea that the force is..._nec plus ultra_ is repeated many times in the films. Darth Vader warns the imperial Admirals not to be too confident about the power of the Death Star since it's insignificant when compared to the power of the force. He was right. One little guy flying an x-winged fighter blew up that giant Death Star.

There is a premium on _believing _as well. When Luke fails to lift his ship out of the swamp and Yoda does it for him, Luke tells him he can't believe it. Yoda's reply : "that is why you fail."

An interesting motif, as well, is the _twins story_. And there is also an interesting Oedipus Rex thing going on there too with Luke trying to kill his father.


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## maxiogee

Zahab said:
			
		

> for example where is the tomb of christ, and where are his  bones this is mistery that have only one meaning resurrection.



Zahab, where are the bones of anyone from 2000 years ago. Where are the bones of Herod, or Pilate, or any of the historical figures mentioned in the Bible?

The logic that Jesus must have risen because no bones have been found is false.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> You can't have a discussion about the evolution of religious myths (or religious stories, to use a, hopefully, less controversial term) without mentioning the Sumerian Flood Story. Here's an interesting comparison between the Babylonian flood stories and the Biblical deluge.
> 
> _When the gods created man, they alloted to him death,
> but life they retained in their own keeping.
> As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things;
> day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice.
> _
> Siduri, _The Epic of Gilgamesh_.



You might be interested in this, Outsider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)


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## LV4-26

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> You might be interested in this, Outsider:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29


I wonder who is that Ziusudra mentionned by Anna Raquel. Shouldn't it be Utnapishtim? I mean those two names have nothing in common phonologically speaking.


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## elionor

Hi,

there are myths common to different religions and spiritual traditions: the virgin mother, the saviour that sacrifices his life because he loves his fellowmen and then resurrects, the flood, etc...

The question for me is: why did people from different countries, and even continents, write stories so similar? (they didn´t have internet in ancient times!)

I wonder is there's a hidden spiritual truth behind myths, a truth which is common to all human beings. I've read somewhere that the virgin represents the "matrix" from where matter is created, which always remains pure.

The hero, or Christ, would represent the divine part in every human being, the light or higher conciousness inside which, if connected, gradually shows us the way to find a new and better life. Our old self dies, and a enlightened being emerges.

Wow, there's so much to talk about this! I wish I had more time, I'd love to study religions and ancient myths.

I'm new in this forum, but I've noticed there are several threads relating to religion. Do you think people -in general- are having a renewed interest in spirituality?
Maybe we aren't only searching for intellectual knowledge, but for something deeper and more spiritual.

I'd also like to apologize for any language mistakes I may have made, please feel free to correct my grammar and vocabulary. I'll apreciate it, I really would like to improve my English.


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## Ana Raquel

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I wonder who is that Ziusudra mentionned by Anna Raquel. Shouldn't it be Utnapishtim? I mean those two names have nothing in common phonologically speaking.


Yes, Ut-Napsihtim and Ziusudra are the same. Two versions, different names but both refer to the same character.


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## Outsider

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I wonder who is that Ziusudra mentionned by Anna Raquel. Shouldn't it be Utnapishtim? I mean those two names have nothing in common phonologically speaking.


One name is Sumerian, the other Akkadian. But they were equivalent figures, like Jupiter and Zeus.

P.S. See the Assyrio-Babylonian FAQ.


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## Residente Calle 13

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I wonder who is that Ziusudra mentionned by Anna Raquel. Shouldn't it be Utnapishtim? I mean those two names have nothing in common phonologically speaking.



*Ziusudra *is Sumerian and *Utnapishtim *is Babylonian. Why would they have anything phonologically in common? Both groups are Mesopotamian but I understand they were different civilizations.


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## Residente Calle 13

elionor said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> there are myths common to different religions and spiritual traditions: the virgin mother, the saviour that sacrifices his life because he loves his fellowmen and then resurrects, the flood, etc...
> 
> The question for me is: why did people from different countries, and even continents, write stories so similar? (they didn´t have internet in ancient times!)



Maybe it's because we are not so different. For example, people who settle down tend to live near water so they all tend to experience, sooner or later, some sort of flooding. So it's something they collectively fear. The flood myth is alive and well today...just ask the Mayor of New Orleans what caused Katrina.

I think the myths tell us a great deal about what we share...our common virtues, our common goals and our common fears.

Or maybe we humans just lack imagination so we keep coming up with the same stories over and over again. If TV and Hollywood are any indication...


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## fenixpollo

maxiogee, we're not here to support or refute any one belief.  This thread is about similarities between stories of different religions, without regard to whether one or another story is "correct" or "true."  Zahab apologized for his partisan comments and seemed to retract them, and it is clear that they require no further discussion in this thread. 





			
				elionor said:
			
		

> I'm new in this forum, but I've noticed there are several threads relating to religion. Do you think people -in general- are having a renewed interest in spirituality?


 Welcome to the forum, elionor.  You're English is incredible! 

I don't think that the number of religious threads right now relates to an increase in spirituality in general.  I think it has to do with the nature of this forum and the people here.  I don't talk about religion with people around me (especially at work), but here in the forum I feel safe to discuss it.  Plus, like maxiogee, when I hear/see someone say something that I consider to be ludicrous, I tend to speak out.  I don't get to do that much outside this forum.


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## LV4-26

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> *Ziusudra *is Sumerian and *Utnapishtim *is Babylonian. Why would they have anything phonologically in common? Both groups are Mesopotamian but I understand they were different civilizations.


Right so. I was just confused by the fact that Gilgamesh is supposed to be a *Sumerian* king and that the name mentionned in his epic (for the hero of the flood) is Utnapishtim.
But it isn't that important. I don't want to sidetrack the topic.


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## Outsider

Utnapishtim/Ziusudra _is_ the hero of the deluge, but the flood is only a side story in the _Epic of Gilgamesh_.


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## Residente Calle 13

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Right so. I was just confused by the fact that Gilgamesh is supposed to be a *Sumerian* king and that the name mentionned in his epic (for the hero of the flood) is Utnapishtim.


I took another look at that and I'm guessing they are just "He saw life" in two different languages. Kind of like "Sitting Bull" who was _*Tatanka Iyotake *_in his native Lokota.


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## Maria Juanita

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> the revelation that the scapegoat is actually innocent, that the crowd needed to believe in his culpability, to be all united against one person in order to restore harmony in their society (...)
> 
> In Christian religion, not only Job and Christ are innocent but Oedipus is also proved innocent at the same time.



Yes. I always wondered why is that we always need a Messiah and/or a scapegoat who cleans us away of all the so-called evil and low that we are.  In ancient greek cultures, the scape goat was an animal that the whole tribe would pick and take outside of the village, then they would begin a ritual which consisted in calling the animal vile names, courses and throwing it stones until they finally kill it.  Nietsche said, we are doomed to repetition so we see that in modern -and even post-modern- society too.(Except for most of jews, who insist in deniying the arriving of Jesuschrist)
I find interesting the version of a Messiah by the rastafaris:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rasta

I don't know pretty much about religion but that would mean that they have not only one, but two Messiahs?  

Saludillos...


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## fenixpollo

since you asked, M...





			
				Maria Juanita said:
			
		

> Yes. I always wondered why *it* is that we always need a Messiah and/or a scapegoat who *washes* away of all the so-called evil and base desires that we have. In ancient Greek cultures, the scape goat was an animal that the whole tribe would pick and take outside of the village, then they would begin a ritual which consisted of calling the animal vile names, curses and throwing stones at it until they finally killed it. Nietsche said, we are doomed to repetition, so we see that in modern -and even post-modern- society too.(Except for most Jewish people, who insist in denying the arrival of Jesus Christ)
> The version of a Messiah by the Rastafarians is interesting :
> 
> I don't know very much about religion but that would mean that they have not just one, but two Messiahs?


My opinion about the commonality of stories between religions is not that humans are unoriginal, or that we have a genetic memory, but that we all have the same fears, the same roots and the same way of telling stories.  The stories we invent in order to alleviate those fears often take similar forms.


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## Residente Calle 13

Dragons! 

So many cultures have dragons! 

In Return of the Jedi Luke battles the rancor monster!

It's interesting that so many different cultures have dragons.


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## eMurray

Luke has a biological father. Anakin. Which turns out to be Darth Vader. It was also the trigger to the ever so famous...
"You killed my father!"
"No Luke. I am your father!"
"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!"


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## Ana Raquel

Hi Zahab



			
				Zahab said:
			
		

> i did not know about the resurrection of osiris,


 
the story in short is that Osiris as King of Egypt brought civilization, spirituality and a body of laws to his people, then he travelled to other lands to spread his teachings peacefully, leaving his wife (and sister) Isis at charge of Egypt, task that she did succesfully, but his brother Seth got jelous and managed to kill Osiris and dismember his body. 

The devoted Isis could find the pieces of the body, joined them and Osiris resurrected as the god of the dead. Isis got pregnant virginally and had her son Horus.

Do you see the similarities with the stories of prophets, Jesus, peaceful way, virgin Mary, Cain and Abel, resurrection, commandements.

Then the Greeks learnt form the Egyptians, changed the names, in fact Osiris, Isis and are Greek names, not the original Egyptian names Ausar and Auset,  and then the story from Greeks to Rome and the names were changed again.


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## SpiceMan

elionor said:
			
		

> The question for me is: why did people from different countries, and even continents, write stories so similar? (they didn´t have internet in ancient times!)


Because they all were culturally bound. In some areas, several religions started gaining its status within the same area and share some points as judaism, christianism and islam. Or religions over India, or China both of which -rather than thinking of them as a countries- should be considered "continents": the diversity of cultures, languages, and religions of China and India are that vast.

So you see Malaysia and England. What do they share? Christianism and Islam. Monotheism, some shared common mythical characters, history of these two (and three along with judaism) are closely related.

England is an anglosaxon view of christianism.
Malaysia is a mix of south asian and chinese, most of the people are muslims. Yet they share mythology.


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