# döner/kebap/şiş



## K.u.r.t

Could someone explain to me the difference between doner, kebab and shish? I realised that very often these terms refer to different meals in different shops. Sometimes I have even seen them combined (like doner kebab etc.) This added even more to my confusion. Do they describe the body part, the method of preparation, method of serving or what? Or do these terms differ geographically?

Cheers


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## Chazzwozzer

Hi Kurt, (Did you know that kurt means wolf in Turkish?)

*Kebab *_(Turkish: kebap)_ is the generic name for the meat or vegetables roasted or grilled on a skewer or spit. Although neither the word nor the dish is originally Turkish, it was introduced to Europe by the Turks. The word originally must be one of the languages spoken in Middle East, Persian or Arabic.

*Doner kebab* _(Turkish: döner kebap, shortly and commonly: döner) _is completely Turkish. Döner means "turning," and it refers to the way it is made. (See this picture) Turkish Döner is similar to Greek Gyros, Mexican Al pastor and Middle Eastern Shawarma. It is made with lamb, mutton, chicken or beef.
*
Shish kebab* _(Turkish: şiş kebap, shortly and commonly: şiş) _is also pretty much Turkish and similar to Greek Souvlaki and Kalamaki. Şiş means skewer in Turkish and refers to the way it is made, on a metal or wooden skewer. Şiş kebap, at least here in Turkish, is usually a combination of the different types of meat and vegetables, which is roasted on a grill. The meat can be any fowl or fish and for vegetables, it's usually tomato, eggplant, mushrooms and bell pepper.

Has it been any helpful?


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## elroy

We use two of these words in Arabic - "kebab" and "shish" - but not in exactly the same way that Chazz describes.

"Kebab" (Arabic كباب) is not a generic name for grilled meat or vegetables, but rather a specific word that describes grilled pieces of meat made out of ground beef, parsley, onions, and spices.  If you order "kabaab" (that's how we pronounce it) at a Palestinian restaurant, that's what you're going to get.  Otherwise, you have to specify what you want.

"Shish kebab" (Arabic شيش كباب) is a skewer with kabaab on it.  It may come with a grilled onion or tomato, or both.


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## K.u.r.t

Thanks a lot mate! It would be interesting to trace the origin of the word though. I posted this question in the Arabic forum (becuase here in London it is sold predominantly by Arabs) and got moved here as the word is alledgedly not of arabic origin...


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## Chazzwozzer

Wikipedia says kebab _(Persian: _*کباب*,_ kabāb) _means grilled (or broiled) meat in Iranian languages.

elroy, does kebab mean anything in Arabic?


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## CarlosPerezMartinez

Chazzwozzer said:


> Hi Kurt, (Did you know that kurt means wolf in Turkish?)
> 
> *Doner kebab* _(Turkish: döner kebap, shortly and commonly: döner) _is completely Turkish. Döner means "turning," and it refers to the way it is made. (See this picture) Turkish Döner is similar to Greek Gyros, Mexican Al pastor and Middle Eastern Shawarma. It is made with lamb, mutton, chicken or beef.


 
In Greece you even have pork shawarma (pork doner kebab). Amazingly tasty! (If you eat pork, of course)


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## Chazzwozzer

CarlosPerezMartinez said:


> In Greece you even have pork shawarma (pork doner kebab). Amazingly tasty! (If you eat pork, of course)


I've never tasted pork kebab. It's rarely made with pork and I haven't seen it sold around. 

Do the Greeks call it shawarma?

Oh, and I've just found out that *shawarma *comes from Turkish *çevirme*, _turning_.


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## CarlosPerezMartinez

No, I don't think they call it shawarma (although Turkish coffee is called Greek coffee in Greece). It is in Saudi Arabia (and other Arab countries) where they call it shawarma instead of doner kebab. And of course, due to religious reasons you don't find pork shawarma in Islamic countries.


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## Chazzwozzer

CarlosPerezMartinez said:


> Although Turkish coffee is called Greek coffee in Greece).


And it is called Armenian Coffee in Armenia. It's not very surprising for nations having lived for hundreds of years together, so it would be silly to believe Turkish coffee only belongs to Turks.



CarlosPerezMartinez said:


> It is in Saudi Arabia (and other Arab countries) where they call it shawarma instead of doner kebab.


If you order a kebab in Saudi Arabia, will the waiter understand you mean shawarma or give you a blank stare?



CarlosPerezMartinez said:


> And of course, due to religious reasons you don't find pork shawarma in Islamic countries.


Is anything contains pork banned there due to Islamic reasons?


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## MarcB

Chazzwozzer said:


> And it is called Armenian Coffee in Armenia. It's not very surprising for nations having lived for hundreds of years together, so it would be silly to believe Turkish coffee only belongs to Turks.
> 
> 
> If you order a kebab in Saudi Arabia, will the waiter understand you mean shawarma or give you a blank stare?
> 
> 
> Is anything contains pork banned there due to Islamic reasons?


Yes Chazz in Saudi Arabia pork is banned.


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## cherine

K.u.r.t said:


> Thanks a lot mate! It would be interesting to trace the origin of the word though.


I agree. Now we know that shawarma is a Turkish word. 


> I posted this question in the Arabic forum (becuase here in London it is sold predominantly by Arabs) and got moved here as the word is alledgedly not of arabic origin...


They are *not* of Arabic origin. 


Chazzwozzer said:


> Wikipedia says kebab _(Persian: _*کباب*,_ kabāb) _means grilled (or broiled) meat in Iranian languages.
> elroy, does kebab mean anything in Arabic?


Not in itself. We don't know where exactly it's from, but we know it's not from Arabic origin.


Chazzwozzer said:


> *Kebab *_(Turkish: kebap)_ is the generic name for the meat or vegetables roasted or grilled on a skewer or spit. [...]


Kebab (in Egypt we say k*a*bab, second "a" a bit longer) only refers to meat. roasted vegetables are called roasted vegetables (khudár mashwi) خضار مشوي


> *Doner kebab* _(Turkish: döner kebap, shortly and commonly: döner) _is completely Turkish. Döner means "turning," and it refers to the way it is made. (See this picture) Turkish Döner is similar to Greek Gyros, Mexican Al pastor and Middle Eastern Shawarma. It is made with lamb, mutton, chicken or beef.



In Egypt, we say shawerma, and it's made with either beef or chicken. 



> *Shish kebab* _(Turkish: şiş kebap, shortly and commonly: şiş) _is also pretty much Turkish and similar to Greek Souvlaki and Kalamaki. Şiş means skewer in Turkish and refers to the way it is made, on a metal or wooden skewer. Şiş kebap, at least here in Turkish, is usually a combination of the different types of meat and vegetables, which is roasted on a grill. The meat can be any fowl or fish and for vegetables, it's usually tomato, eggplant, mushrooms and bell pepper.


The one with the chicken, we call it shish tawúk. Grilled fish are grilled fish "samak mashwi" سمك مشوي




Chazzwozzer said:


> Is anything contains pork banned there due to Islamic reasons?


Pork is not generally served in restaurants. Only some shops sell it (for Christians, foreigners, Muslims who don't care much about religion).


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## palomnik

I'm a bit surprised that Wikipedia has the word _kebab _as of Persian origin; the root _kbb _is a well established Arabic root, including the meanings "to flip over, turn around", and "to roll into little balls", like meatballs. The word _kibbe _comes from the same root. it looks authentically Arabic to me.

I don't want to stray too far off the topic, but for the record I've never met an Arab - Muslim or Christian - that would touch pork.


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## CarlosPerezMartinez

Chazzwozzer said:


> If you order a kebab in Saudi Arabia, will the waiter understand you mean shawarma or give you a blank stare?
> 
> Is anything contains pork banned there due to Islamic reasons?


 
I think most of them will understand easily, but also most of them are either Turkish of Syrian.

And yes, pork is completely banned and forbidden in Saudi Arabia.


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## K.u.r.t

palomnik said:


> I don't want to stray too far off the topic, but for the record I've never met an Arab - Muslim or Christian - that would touch pork.




This is quite obvious becuase regardless of religion all arabs, jews and others that live in the area have to deal with the local climate. In this climate pork meat goes rotten more quickly and also there is a higher chance of parasites in this meat in that region. That's why local religions ban pork. There is nothing more to it, pure hygiene. Back in those days such rules were taught by clerics as they were the most educated people - hence the religios status. When local people started to travel elsewhere they just took their habits with them.


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## cherine

palomnik said:


> I'm a bit surprised that Wikipedia has the word _kebab _as of Persian origin; the root _kbb _is a well established Arabic root, including the meanings "to flip over, turn around", and "to roll into little balls", like meatballs. The word _kibbe _comes from the same root. it looks authentically Arabic to me.


This is a point. But still, I'm not sure that kabab/kebab is really from an Arabic etymology.
Hopefully we'll get more opinions about this.


> I don't want to stray too far off the topic, but for the record I've never met an Arab - Muslim or Christian - that would touch pork.


Well, Palomnik, maybe you haven't met enough Arabs  As I said in my previous post, Christians in Egypt -and I guess in many Arab countries- eat pork. We have pigs farms, and shops that sell pork.


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## Abu Rashid

Hans Wehr lists كبّ as an Arabic verb with the meaning of to Prostrate, bend over, turn over, capsize, revert, roll or form into a ball, conglomerate.

Isn't shawerma also of Arabic origin?


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## Chazzwozzer

Abu Rashid said:


> Isn't shawerma also of Arabic origin?


Wikipedia has an explanation on that:


> Shawarma (_Çevirme_) has its origins in Anatolia and is essentially the same dish as döner kebab in Turkey, possibly differing from it in the type of meat and spices used.



What is the root of the word you think it comes from, Abu Rashid?

By the way, does *كبّ* mean kebab?


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## elroy

Chazzwozzer said:


> By the way, does *كبّ* mean kebab?


 Not quite.  That's the verb that means those things that Abu Rashid said.  "Kebab" is كباب - pronounced "kabaab."


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## Chazzwozzer

cherine said:


> The one with the chicken, we call it shish tawúk.


And we call that *tavuk şiş*. I guess *tawúk *comes from Turkish *tavuk*, which is just my guess based on the fact that TDK suggests no foreign etymology. It could be Persian as well. As the dictionary tells, *tav *refers to _(of animals) the state of being well-wed_ in Persian and it might where the word tavuk comes from.


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## sargon

Döner, Kebab or Kabab, Shish, tavuk or Tawook  have nothing to do with Arabic. I'm not sure about Shawerma or Shawarma but the following is used in Arab countries

*Shish Kabab:* Cut cubes of Lamb/beef grilled on a skewer
*Shish Tawook or Tawuk:* Cut cubes of chicken grilled on a skewer
*Fish Kabab:* Cut cubes of fish grilled on a skewer
*Kafta or Kofta Kabab:* Ground Lamb/beef minced with parsley, onions, and spices grilled on a skewer
*Chicken Kabab:* Ground chicken minced with parsley, onions, and spices grilled on a skewer
*Shawerma/Shawarma:* Similar to Turkish Döner and Greek Gyros. It could be lamb, beef, chicken and very recently fish


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## Chazzwozzer

Kafta? Well, I'm a bit surprised. I have always thought it is only made by Greeks (_keftes_) and us (köfte). I haven't never heard something called *köfte kebap*, though. _(Köfte, with its 291 different kinds in Turkey, is one of the most favourite foodstuff around here.)_

An online free-dictionary says the word *köfte *comes from Persian *küften*_(to smash)

_


> *Fish Kabab:* Cut cubes of fish grilled on a skewer


It's not what you call it in Arabic, is it?


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## sargon

Chazzwozzer said:


> Kafta? Well, I'm a bit surprised. I have always thought it is only made by Greeks (_keftes_) and us (köfte). I haven't never heard something called *köfte kebap*, though. _(Köfte, with its 291 different kinds in Turkey, is one of the most favourite foodstuff around here.)_
> 
> An online free-dictionary says the word *köfte *comes from Persian *küften*_(to smash)_
> 
> It's not what you call it in Arabic, is it?


 
An online free-dictionary says the word *köfte *comes from Persian *küften*_(to smash)_ _so Kafta Kabab is "Smashed" Kabab which makes sense_

It's not what you call it in Arabic, is it? _We call its Kabab Samak as Samak Mashwi means a whole grilled fish_


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## roh3x2n

Chazzwozzer said:


> Wikipedia says kebab _(Persian: _*کباب*,_ kabāb) _means grilled (or broiled) meat in Iranian languages.
> 
> elroy, does kebab mean anything in Arabic?


 

Well you are right.
Kabab is persian.
And and there many sort of kabab.

We have similar word like shish.In persian it is Shush kabab
Which means lungs of animals.
And i am not sure if there is kabab of that.Or maybe there is.

And there is another kabak that i know
which callled Seekh or sihkh kabab.
Sihkh means  iron bars or skewer
It is very famous in Afghanistan.


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## Abu Rashid

> Wikipedia has an explanation on that



Although I often use Wikipedia and find it to be an invaluable resource at times, it's not exactly a professional compilation. After all the articles are often just written by people like you or me, with no evidence to back them up. Some of the stuff on there is just ridiculous and very inaccurate.



> What is the root of the word you think it comes from, Abu Rashid?


شوى - meaning to broil, grill or roast especially on a spit.

It's possible a Turkish or Persian ending has been added to the word I don't know, but I think this is the origin.


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## Chazzwozzer

Abu Rashid said:


> It's possible a Turkish or Persian ending has been added to the word I don't know, but I think this is the origin.


*Çevirme
Shawarma*

So do shawar or even shawar mean anything?

Can you please transliterate شوى?

Thanks for your answer.


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## cherine

Chazzwozzer said:


> *Çevirme*
> *Shawarma*
> 
> So do shawar or even shawar mean anything?
> 
> Can you please transliterate شوى?


What do the colors refer to ?
The Arabic word is shawa (verb in the past tense) = to grill.
Shawar is not Arabic.


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## Chazzwozzer

cherine said:


> What do the colors refer to ?
> The Arabic word is shawa (verb in the past tense) = to grill.
> Shawar is not Arabic.


The colors show the suffixes of Turkish origin. 

Turkish suffixes,_ -er and -me_, could have been added to *shawa *and made it *shawarma*, so I guess Abu Rashid is right on this.


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## Alijsh

roh3x2n said:


> Well you are right.
> Kabab is persian.
> And and there many sort of kabab.
> 
> We have similar word like shish.In persian it is Shush kabab
> Which means lungs of animals.
> And i am not sure if there is kabab of that.Or maybe there is.
> 
> And there is another kabak that i know
> which callled Seekh or sihkh kabab.
> Sihkh means iron bars or skewer
> It is very famous in Afghanistan.


Dear roh3x2n, here are some kinds of kabâb in Iran. Please tell me which ones are also found in Afghanistan

[kabâb-e] kubide, barg, soltâni, loqme, chenje


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## cynicmystic

CarlosPerezMartinez said:


> No, I don't think they call it shawarma (although Turkish coffee is called Greek coffee in Greece). It is in Saudi Arabia (and other Arab countries) where they call it shawarma instead of doner kebab. And of course, due to religious reasons you don't find pork shawarma in Islamic countries.


 
Haha, I had no idea that Turkish coffee is called Greek coffee in Greece. This is quite amusing as it was the Ethiopeans who first introduced coffee beans to the Arabs as a product, and showed how to derive 'joy' from drinking kahve. It is not a coincidence that the Arabic word keyf (state of joy) is related to kahve (coffee) in the sense that one en-joy-s drinking coffee. In turn, the Arab merchants sold the product in the lucrative markets of the Ottoman Empire. During the siege of Vienna, together with cigarettes (tobacco rolled in paper), coffe was passed on to the Austrians by the Ottoman soldiers, who had been brewing coffee and rolling cigarettes in their trenches through out the siege. Turkish coffe is not something that the Turks invented nor is there such a thing as Greek coffe in the sense that the modern Turkish coffee is actually a Greek invention. It is neither a Greek nor a Turkish invention. Nevertheless, it is highly amusing for me.


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## sargon

cynicmystic said:


> Haha, I had no idea that Turkish coffee is called Greek coffee in Greece. This is quite amusing as it was the Ethiopeans who first introduced coffee beans to the Arabs as a product, and showed how to derive 'joy' from drinking kahve. It is not a coincidence that the Arabic word keyf (state of joy) is related to kahve (coffee) in the sense that one en-joy-s drinking coffee. In turn, the Arab merchants sold the product in the lucrative markets of the Ottoman Empire. During the siege of Vienna, together with cigarettes (tobacco rolled in paper), coffe was passed on to the Austrians by the Ottoman soldiers, who had been brewing coffee and rolling cigarettes in their trenches through out the siege. Turkish coffe is not something that the Turks invented nor is there such a thing as Greek coffe in the sense that the modern Turkish coffee is actually a Greek invention. It is neither a Greek nor a Turkish invention. Nevertheless, it is highly amusing for me.


When someone says Turkish or Greek Coffee, it means the way it is prepared.


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## cynicmystic

sargon said:


> When someone says Turkish or Greek Coffee, it means the way it is prepared.


 
Yes, except that it was neither the Greeks nor the Turks that invented the way of making coffee that you are referring to. It was not the Arab merchants either. We should credit Ethiopeans, I think.


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