# vocês as objective



## Encolpius

Do you want me to help you? (speaking to 2 children)

Please check if I translated the sentence correctly and understood the rules. Thanks a lot. 

Vocês querem que eu vos ajude? (informal, in Portugal)
Vocês querem que eu os ajude? (formal, in Portugal)
Vocês querem que eu ajude vocês? (in Brazil)


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## andlima

Encolpius said:


> Vocês querem que eu vos ajude? (informal, in Portugal)
> Vocês querem que eu os ajude? (formal, in Portugal)
> Vocês querem que eu ajude vocês? (in Brazil)



The translation to Brazilian Portuguese is okay. The other two seem right too, but I'm not sure...


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## MisterBondPT

Do you want me to help you?
Querem que vos ajude?

The subject YOU is already in the VOS, and also in the verb Querer in the proper tense (voces querem? therefore you hide the vocês and just ask Querem... ?)

"Querem que os ajude" would refer to another group of persons. OS here would mean that the children would have asked you to help some other group, and you would ask "Do you want me to help THEM?"

"Voces querem que eu ajude voces?" sounds 1st too brasilian because using voçês (in portugal we don't use it so often, and 2nd too repetitive. So this is completely a NO. 

Final answer:
Querem que vos ajude?


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## joanamcbarata

Encolpius said:


> Do you want me to help you? (speaking to 2 children)
> 
> Please check if I translated the sentence correctly and understood the rules. Thanks a lot.
> 
> Vocês querem que eu vos ajude? (informal, in Portugal)
> Vocês querem que eu os ajude? (formal, in Portugal)
> Vocês querem que eu ajude vocês? (in Brazil)


 
"Os" is the personal pronoum that corresponds to the english "them".
You would use "os" if you said: "Eles querem que eu os ajude?" (Do they want me to help them?)

Another suggestion: You can drop the "vocês", because the verb already tells you it's the second person plural.


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## MisterBondPT

Ah!
Some important addition:

Querem que os ajude? FORMAL. That's right, in fact. 100% right.
Querem que vos ajude? (or even Querem ajuda?) FORMAL. Correct.

Did I help? Hope so


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## joanamcbarata

MisterBondPT said:


> Ah!
> Some important addition:
> 
> Querem que os ajude? FORMAL. That's right, in fact. 100% right.
> Querem que vos ajude? (or even Querem ajuda?) FORMAL. Correct.
> 
> Did I help? Hope so


 
I don't see why, I would use it with my friends.


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## Alentugano

Encolpius said:


> Do you want me to help you? (speaking to 2 children)
> 
> Please check if I translated the sentence correctly and understood the rules. Thanks a lot.
> 
> Vocês querem que eu vos ajude? (informal, in Portugal) *Grammatically incorrect (because it mixes 3rd person with 2nd person), but widely used and accepted in Portugal.*
> Vocês querem que eu os ajude? (formal, in Portugal) *Correct both in Brazil and Portugal, but it's avoided here in Portugal as it can induce to some ambiguity*
> *Vocês* querem que eu ajude vocês? (in Brazil) *I think it works for Brazilian informal speech but I find it would sound better without the first Vocês*.


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## joanamcbarata

Alentugano, 

Why is the first sentence grammatically incorrect?
What is the ambiguity in the second sentence?


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## MOC

joanamcbarata said:


> Alentugano,
> 
> Why is the first sentence grammatically incorrect?
> What is the ambiguity in the second sentence?


 
Because you're using "Vocês querem" (third person) followed by "vos ajude" (2nd person). As Alentugano said, however, this is widely used and accepted in Portugal.



Also, not to confuse Encolpius, but just to add a little tidbit of information. In the north of Portugal it wouldn't be uncommon at all to say:

"(Vós) quereis que vos ajude?"

You can keep saying the options you provided instead. Don't worry. This is just so you won't find it too strange in case you ever go to the north.


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## joanamcbarata

Thanks MOC, now i get it. It's so common tu use the third person when we actually mean the 2nd, that i wasn't understanding it 
But in the second sentence, isn't there a lack of agreement between "vocês" e "os"?


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## MOC

No, for the same reason. Both "Vocês" and "Eles/Elas" gramatically are in the 3rd person, which means the "os" could be directed towards both of them. You wouldn't know if I was asking them ("Eles") for help or you ("Vocês") for help.

It would be the same as in "Posso ajudá-lo?". Without context one could be asking "May I help you?" or "May I help him?".

There's always the need to remember that although "Vocês" and "Você" are used when addressing the 2nd person, they actually belong to the 3rd person.


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## WAMORZINHO

Vocês querem que eu os ajude?


> *Vocês* querem que eu ajude vocês? (in Brazil) *I think it works for Brazilian informal speech but I find it would sound better without the first Vocês*


Acho que esta errado, não podemos dizer amo ela, e sim a amo...
Não sei explicar com regras, só sei que é mais ou menos assim.


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## joanamcbarata

I understand that, but since the english sentence is "Do you want me to help you?",
wouldn't the second sentence in pt have a different meaning (Do you want me to help them?)? Keeping in mind that "vocês" is there to mark the difference from "eles".


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## MOC

joanamcbarata said:


> I understand that, but since the english sentence is "Do you want me to help you?",
> wouldn't the second sentence in pt have a different meaning (Do you want me to help them?)? Keeping in mind that "vocês" is there to mark the difference from "eles".


 
It could still mean "Do you want me to help them?", don't you think? Although, one can guess that was not the intention, we can't say it's a sentence with 0% ambiguity.


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## andlima

WAMORZINHO said:


> Acho que esta errado, não podemos dizer amo ela, e sim a amo...
> Não sei explicar com regras, só sei que é mais ou menos assim.



Está correto, Wamorzinho. Não podemos dizer "amo ela" porque (além de ser cacofonia, neste caso específico) "ela" é pronome pessoal do caso reto, e estes pronomes não funcionam como objeto direto. O mesmo vale para "eu", "tu", "ele", "nós", "vós", "eles" e "elas". No entanto, "você" é um pronome de tratamento, então não cai nessa regra.

As for omitting _"vocês"_ in _"vocês querem que eu ajude vocês?"_ in Brazilian use, it becomes slightly better, but I don't think it's actually necessary...

By the way, thanks, Alentugano and MOC, for the clarification regarding the use in Portugal. That's precisely what I thought... In Brazil there's a similar occurence in the singular: _"(Você) quer que eu *te* ajude?"_ is not grammatically correct, but is widely used informally. In the plural version, we don't use _"vos"_, though...


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## WAMORZINHO

joanamcbarata said:


> I understand that, but since the english sentence is "Do you want me to help you?",
> wouldn't the second sentence in pt have a different meaning (Do you want me to help them?)? Keeping in mind that "vocês" is there to mark the difference from "eles".


Ah! Isso é verdade! 




> As for omitting _"vocês"_ in _"vocês querem que eu ajude vocês?"_ in Brazilian use, it becomes slightly better, but I don't think it's actually necessary...


E assim? _Vocês querem minha ajuda?_


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## uchi.m

WAMORZINHO said:


> E assim? _Vocês querem minha ajuda?_


I would stick to that one, or rather to _Quer(em) ajuda?_, which implies it is _me_ who helps_._


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## Alentugano

WAMORZINHO said:


> E assim? _Vocês querem minha ajuda?_



Também prefiro essa!


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## Alandria

Os portugueses adoram ocultar pronomes pessoais, é verdade, mas eu conheço portugueses que dizem que isso ocorre mais em algumas regiões de Portugal do que em outras.

Dentro do Brasil ocorre o mesmo, há regiões que chegam a ocultar mais os pronomes pessoais do em outras, mas isso é algo tão pequeno, que nem reparamos.


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