# Why do people never listen? - Thread-starters and giving a first attempt



## heidita

I was going to post this in the red triangle thread, as I was wondering whether to report the many people who answer a thread without the asker's try and not paying attention to another forer telling the newbie the rules. 

I do not report easily, but I am on and about to do so. It just happened again on the German forum and this is really something I find rather annoying.


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## Bienvenidos

This bothers me too, Heidi. I've seen at least one forero do that more than five times in the last ten minutes!!

 I usually report the top, original post and see what happens.


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## lsp

Heidita, unless it is schoolwork, there is no requirement for newbies to make a first attempt before getting translation help.





cuchuflete said:


> On behalf of myself and other mods who may have created some confusion on this point, I offer a sincere apology. Let's be clear once and for all: There is no forum rule that requires all threads seeking translation help to provide a provisional attempt.


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## Flaminius

Thank you for pointing that out, Lsp.

Foreros can ask for short translations without an own attempt, unless it is schoolwork.  If you see a translation request that smacks of schoolwork, hit the Red Triagle to alarm the modos.

As JP moderator, I usually suspend such posts while PMing the posters to pull out their own attempts.


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## Aurin

Dear Heidita,
I suppose you´re referring to my answer to a simple question of a phrase. It wasn´t my intention to annoy you. My intention was to give an answer assuming that it doesn´t make any 
sense asking for an attempt in case of phrases. 
To tell the truth I don´t know the rule that always the asker´s attempt is obligatory. Where can I find this rule?
My only intention is to help if I can and in no case to annoy. You chose this thread and not a private mail, so I answer here and not in a private mail, although it would have been easier -particularly for me- to converse in our common language.
I am very new in this forum and I appreciate it and I want to enjoy it. We are humans and we fail. 
Life is to short to waste it by annoying.

In this context I would like to share my feelings with the forum. I started brimmed over with enthusiasm. Then I committed a fault correcting a native without any intention of offence. I only saw the error and (I’m a teacher) corrected it. The corrected native wrote me a private mail and informed me that it would be more courteous correcting natives by private mail. Since that moment I’m aware of that and write it in private mails when I notice an error.
I’m sharing that because maybe the old foreros don’t remember how it was when you began without knowing the written and no-written rules.
I hope I could explain what I wanted to express. It is easier for me to explain myself in my mother language German or in Spanish.


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## lsp

I'm sorry you've been made to feel uncomfortable, Aurin. This thread may be encouraging. Some of us truly appreciate being corrected and take no offense. And as you can see, you broke no rule (there is none!) about translating phrases for other members. Be kind and helpful, and read the rules if it makes you feel better, but it sounds like you're doing just fine in a place where there are as many opinions and styles as there are members!


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## Aurin

lsp said:


> I'm sorry you've been made to feel uncomfortable, Aurin. This thread may be encouraging. Some of us truly appreciate being corrected and take no offense. And as you can see, you broke no rule (there is none!) about translating phrases for other members. Be kind and helpful, and read the rules if it makes you feel better, but it sounds like you're doing just fine in a place where there are as many opinions and styles as there are members!


 
Thanks a lot. This thread encouraged me. And I know of other situations of my life that -how you said- there are so many opinions and styles as there are members. But at the first moment I thought that I had dropped a brick again without wanting it and felt as to leave the forum.


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## danielfranco

When a person doesn't try first, I often just translate the words that are part of the question, without any notes or explanations. And if there is no context, then I just take the wildest guess I can, just to be cheeky. Sometimes I even report the post *after* I'm done having my fun. But since there's no rule about trying first, it takes several posts from the new member for him to realize that he might learn better and quicker if he actually gives it a whirl first, or before the new member discovers the joys of advanced searches and cross-referencing the dictionaries.
I know in my case it only took about a couple thousand posts before I learned all these things...


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## Jana337

(not speaking as a moderator)

I am all for gently encouraging people to make an attempt, in particular if they translate whole sentences and/or translate into their mother tongue. In the German forum, we are more successful at this than in other forums (probably because we are such a close-knit
community).

In this case, however, the member wanted to translate an idiomatic expression from her mother tongue. 

If I were a relevant forera (i.e. if I knew the answer and wanted to participate in the thread),
- I wouldn't have asked for her own attempt in this case,
- but if I had seen that someone else had, I think I would have just waited for the asker's reaction.


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## fsabroso

I used to participate in Medical Terms, where many non-medical background foreros can't do an attempt, so we just give our translation or interpretations; but in General Vocabulary (En-Sp) is different, and there many people ask for attempts, it is good to encourage to others giving a try but please, if you do, when this forero give his/her attempt go back to help him/her.


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## Etcetera

heidita said:


> I was going to post this in the red triangle thread, as I was wondering whether to report the many people who answer a thread without the asker's try and not paying attention to another forer telling the newbie the rules.


Some people are just too lazy to read the Rules.
Some aren't very attentive.


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## badgrammar

I read the title of this thread and thought it was on another topic, one of my greatest pet peeves:  So many people seem to not actually read the previous posts before writing their own.  Sometimes you can get the impression that a lot of folks are just here to expound on their own thoughts and not too terribly interested in learning about others' views.  That is really a shame, because it sometimes makes it feel pointless to actually take time to reflect and write and then have the impression no one bothered to read.  I know "wah-wah, cry me a river"...  

Back to topic, I think I almost always ask for context unless it is just too simple (like a basic question on "do I need to use the subjunctive in this sentence or not" - most often no context is required).  As per translations, if the person has not even the slightest notion of French, ,for example, I don't mind just giving it to them.  As I have asked folks to do for me in Polish, for example....


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## heidita

Aurin said:


> I suppose you´re referring to my answer to a simple question of a phrase. It wasn´t my intention to annoy you. My intention was to give an answer assuming that it doesn´t make any
> sense asking for an attempt in case of phrases.



 
I didn't want to make this personal as it was a question for any forum. I did see your answer after I asked the forer for an attempt first. This has been practised like this as "rule" on the German forum. I do see, there is no such rule, but the mods on that forum have always used this method which I appreciate very much. ( By the way, I did the same thing to dear Jana once. I was answering while she was sending a message for a first attempt. So my answer came out just after her reply. It looked very impolite on my part.)



> To tell the truth I don´t know the rule that always the asker´s attempt is obligatory. Where can I find this rule?


 
As it appears there is no such rule, which I always thought existed.


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## heidita

lsp said:


> I'm sorry you've been made to feel uncomfortable, Aurin.


 
It was of course no intention of mine to make anybody feel uncomfortable. 



Jana337 said:


> (not speaking as a moderator)
> 
> I am all for gently encouraging people to make an attempt, in particular if they translate whole sentences and/or translate into their mother tongue. In the German forum, we are more successful at this than in other forums (probably because we are such a close-knit
> community).
> 
> In this case, however, the member wanted to translate an idiomatic expression from her mother tongue.
> 
> If I were a relevant forera (i.e. if I knew the answer and wanted to participate in the thread),
> - I wouldn't have asked for her own attempt in this case,
> - but if I had seen that someone else had, I think I would have just waited for the asker's reaction.


 
I have just seen your post and I am sure, all members, newbies and old members alike, appreciate this method.


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## Etcetera

heidita said:


> As it appears there is no such rule, which I always thought existed.


I was sure it was somehow implied that a person should attempt a translation before asking fot it. But it apllies only to those who are studying the language... If someone simply wants to write a few words on a postcard in a particular language, why not help them with it.


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## heidita

Etcetera said:


> I was sure it was somehow implied that a person should attempt a translation before asking fot it. But it apllies only to those who are studying the language... If someone simply wants to write a few words on a postcard in a particular language, why not help them with it.


 
That's what I thought, etcetera. If there was no _written_ rule, I thought it was _implied_. In any case, there have been questions for example by a person wanting to write a thank-you letter or something who doesnt know the language at all. In this case...

I do not think, this applies to a translator who is asking for help, does it? I personally think one should expect the person to give his/her own try first.


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## Etcetera

heidita said:


> I do not think, this applies to a translator who is asking for help, does it? I personally think one should expect the person to give his/her own try first.


I'm of the same mind.
I see these Forums as a place for learning languages, not merely asking for translations.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

It's the same process when you ask for a child not to eat, say, sweets, before lunch, and then someone near you begin to feed him with a piece of chocolate. 
This is just a question of r-e-s-p-e-c-t! (singing like Aretha!) 
Even when I don't agree when someone is asking for a first attempt first from the poster, I never answer his request before he gives his own translation or explains he can't.


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## lsp

Etcetera said:


> I see these Forums as a place for learning languages, not merely asking for translations.



I think there are many reasons people come here. Maybe these narrow as people stay longer. But it's important to remember that many people come from the links on the dictionary pages, looking for a text input field and expecting a database generated reply - they were not necessarily anticipating a community to respond.  One person's or group's motivations are not the same as everyone else's here. And I also consider that when someone comes for a translation it helps other members like me, the earnest language learners, to attempt to provide one. As those who were here at the time of Cuchuflete's quote in my earlier post learned, not even all the forums have the same personality or customs, much less the individual members.


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## Etcetera

lsp said:


> And I also consider that when someone comes for a translation it helps other members like me, the earnest language learners, to attempt to provide one.


Yes, undoubtedly. I find this to be a pretty good translation practice. 
Let alone that thinking over a tricky question can help you to discover something you wasn't aware of in your our native language. It's just marvellous!


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## maxiogee

heidita said:


> I was going to post this in the red triangle thread, as I was wondering whether to report the many people who answer a thread without the asker's try and not paying attention to another forer telling the newbie the rules.
> 
> .


 


lsp said:


> Heidita, unless it is schoolwork, there is no requirement for newbies to make a first attempt before getting translation help
> 
> .


 
 With no offence to anybody - I feel obliged to ask: Is this a case of what the English expression "The biter bit" means?

I think many of us here have taken but a cursory glance at the rules. We think we know them, and we have our own interpretations of them.

I fell into the trap previously of thinking that all requests for help were to be accompanied by the enquirer's best effort at figuring it out for themself.

My problem with 'homework' and the enquirer having to provide a personal effort, is that I thought homework was outlawed, and beyond our remit here. I have been confuddled by the slightly different emphasis in treatments of schoolwork in different places.

The 'rules' rule.....



> These forums do not provide free schoolwork. If you want help with a school assignment, you are required to do your own work first. Then, and only then, may you post it with a request for help with specific doubts.


..... seems to clash with the emphatic nature of the EO sticky.....

> WordReference forums wish to help members to learn, but are adamantly opposed to doing peoples' work for them or assisting them in any way to misrepresent their competence.


So, I tend to shun what might be, or looks as if it might be, school-related.


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## Nunty

I have the fun of being on both sides of this question. In the English Only and Hebrew forums, I am a native speaker who sometimes asks questions and sometimes answers them. In French - English and Seulement Français I am a translator and advanced learner who asks questions about usage and if it's a case of translation I "show my work" and ask something specific if I can. In the Arabic forum I am a totally new learner, I ask the most basic of questions, and rarely would be capable of making a first try. No one has (yet) asked me to try first. If they did, I'd post gibberish. 

All this to say that I think the rules and their application take various situations into consideration. There is a difference between someone posting a multiple choice question or an obvious grammar exercise and asking for the answer and someone asking why a sentence was marked wrong or what the meaning of a phrase is or what the appropriate idiom would be in a give situation. The case of someone posting a CV cover letter or job application that includes the phrase "I speak English perfect" and asking for "polishing" is also pretty clear.

We're all (mostly?) intelligent people. I think we can (mostly) use our good judgment to know when to answer and when to hit the red triangle. If I'm not sure, I don't answer and don't click and let someone else decide.


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## ampurdan

maxiogee said:


> The 'rules' rule.....
> ..... seems to clash with the emphatic nature of the EO sticky.....So, I tend to shun what might be, or looks as if it might be, school-related.


 
I'm not an EO regular user, but the piece of text you've quoted is followed by:



> These forums do not provide free schoolwork. If you want help with a school assignment or coursework, we expect you to do your own work first. Then, and only then, you may post it with a request for help _*with specific doubts*_. This forum does not 'polish' homework for you.



I think this matches the general rules.


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## maxiogee

ampurdan said:


> I'm not an EO regular user, but the piece of text you've quoted is followed by:
> 
> I think this matches the general rules.


My point was being made in support of my earlier statement - pertaining particularly to myself.....

I think many of us here have taken but a cursory glance at the rules. *We think we know them*, and we have our own interpretations of them.
​
I am just a poor excuse for a forer@


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