# story of the wolf and the lamb



## bankei yotaku

hello everyone, 
does this means:

tale of [a] pack and of [an] herd ?

reading it this way:

组  狼   的 和  群   的 故 事
  zŭ láng de   hé qún  de  gù  shi


thanks everybody


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## xiaolijie

Where did you get that "sentence" ? It doesn't seem to make sense. Check if you've got the writing correct. It should look something similar to this: 狼 和 羊 的 故 事


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## bankei yotaku

Hi xiaolijie, many thanks for your answer: the sentence I didn't find it, but I am trying to put myself to translate a brief tale written sometime this winter, and thus. Your answer is very clear thanks, you take  狼 and 羊 together as if one implies the other, right? and thus the first 的 is utterly superfluous. Pity me, since I in fact should have guessed that by myself by now, but one's own habit in thinking in a language is hard to break: since in Italic is more natural to say _Storia di un gregge e di un branco_, at least to me.  I only wonder, whether 羊 	is obligatory, or 群 may also be used, because the idea is not "many sheeps", but "herd", but just a curiosity, since one may well say, that "many sheeps" is exactly the meaning of "herd"!  Thence, in the sentence  狼 和 羊 的 故 事, is  狼 和 羊 one single adjectival modifier of 故 事, right?


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## xiaolijie

I thought you were trying to say _story of the wolf and the lamb_, and that is what 狼 和 羊 的 故 事 basically means. Literally, you have to read backward to get the English: 狼(wolf) 和(and) 羊(lamb) 的(of) 故事(story).

However, if you want to say _Storia di un gregge e di un branco,_ I don't think your 组 狼 (的) 和 群 的 故 事 is correct, but you'll need the help from some Chinese native speakers. To help them to help you, you may first have to translate *storia di un gregge e di un branco* into English. Does it mean _*story of a flock and a herd*_ ?


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## bankei yotaku

xiaolijie said:


> To help them to help you, you may first have to translate *storia di un gregge e di un branco* into English. Does it mean _*story of a flock and a herd*_ ?



I think the former means *Tale* - or story - *of an herd and a pack*, since to me "flock" means a group of birds, as "herd" means a group of sheep, and thus "pack" means a group of wolves, and here the latter is meant.


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## sisuer

Hello, bankei yotaku. I agree with xiaolijie that "组狼的和群的故事" doesn't make sense. Maybe you should just read the tale to know what  it is all about?

If it is a tale of an herd and a pack, then the Chinese equivalent could be "狼群和羊群的故事" or, even better, "一群狼和一群羊的故事".

Besides, I think "a flock" can mean "a flock of sheep".


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## bankei yotaku

sisuer said:


> Hello, bankei yotaku. I agree with xiaolijie that "组狼的和群的故事" doesn't make sense. Maybe you should just read the tale to know what  it is all about?
> 
> If it is a tale of an herd and a pack, then the Chinese equivalent could be "狼群和羊群的故事" or, even better, "一群狼和一群羊的故事".
> 
> Besides, I think "a flock" can mean "a flock of sheep".



Hello, sisuer, that's all right, I agree. But must I use 群 to tell a group of wolves, or I may also tell that by means of 组? since I actually feel that 群 is referring mainly to sheep, rather than birds or wolves


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## SuperXW

bankei yotaku said:


> But must I use 群 to tell a group of wolves, or I may also tell that by means of 组? since I actually feel that 群 is referring mainly to sheep, rather than birds or wolves


No. 群 describes almost all kinds of animals. (That's why you must specify wheather it's 羊群/一群羊 or 狼群/一群狼. 群 can't be used alone.) 组 is for organized things or human's team.


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## sisuer

SuperXW said:


> No. 群 describes almost all kinds of animals. (That's why you must specify wheather it's 羊群/一群羊 or 狼群/一群狼. 群 can't be used alone.) 组 is for organized things or human's team.


 
I agree. You can almost alway use "一群x" to indicate groups of animals, be it sheep, wolves, cattle, birds, ducks, horses...however, the use of the "x群" pattern is confined to “狼群", "羊群", and "牛群" (I can't think of any other instances). 

Note that "狼群" still means something different from "一群狼": the former emphasizes the species generally while the latter refers to a certain group of that species that you describe or observe. For example,
这里有狼群出没。Wolves are seen here from time to time.
一群狼出现了。A wolf pack appeared.

This is just my opinion. Hope it helps.


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## bankei yotaku

sisuer said:


> I agree. You can almost alway use "一群x" to indicate groups of animals, be it sheep, wolves, cattle, birds, ducks, horses...however, the use of the "x群" pattern is confined to “狼群", "羊群", and "牛群" (I can't think of any other instances).
> 
> Note that "狼群" still means something different from "一群狼": the former emphasizes the species generally while the latter refers to a certain group of that species that you describe or observe. For example,
> 这里有狼群出没。Wolves are seen here from time to time.
> 一群狼出现了。A wolf pack appeared.
> 
> This is just my opinion. Hope it helps.



Many thanks to both! Your explanation is greatly clear and shed full light on this question for me. 

Tell me if I understood properly: the  "x群" pattern is like the name of the species, whether it be "狼", "羊" or "牛"; as saying the group of all "狼", "羊" or "牛", while  "一群狼" translates the expression "one group of wolves" that is "a pack". So the former is a single word, but not the latter. Thence I should use the latter in the expression I translated, since I meant just a "pack", not "wolves" in general. May I also ask you whether here the measure word is superfluous or it's not allowed? and if your first example's literal translation is: 

这               
Here  
里有                          
there are 
狼群               
wolves  
出没。
coming and going


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## bankei yotaku

SuperXW said:


> 组 is for organized things or human's team.



then, is it: 足球(的)组 = football team  ?

sorry for the question off topic...


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## SuperXW

bankei yotaku said:


> then, is it: 足球(的)组 = football team ?
> 
> sorry for the question off topic...


 
When talking about people, 组 is more closed to a "group" rather than a "team". (Sorry for my previous words if it confused you.)
For sport teams, we use 队. Football team=足球队. 的 is not used here.
队"team" is usually joint up by people with specialties. They have a clear goal. 队 is even more organized than 组. 队 is exclusively for humans.
In football games, several teams may be set into one "group" to compete with each other. That group is called 组.
In school, a teacher may divide a class into several groups. Those groups are called 组.


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## sisuer

bankei yotaku said:


> Many thanks to both! Your explanation is greatly clear and shed full light on this question for me.
> 
> Tell me if I understood properly: the "x群" pattern is like the name of the species, whether it be "狼", "羊" or "牛"; as saying the group of all "狼", "羊" or "牛", while "一群狼" translates the expression "one group of wolves" that is "a pack". So the former is a single word, but not the latter. Thence I should use the latter in the expression I translated, since I meant just a "pack", not "wolves" in general. May I also ask you whether here the measure word is superfluous or it's not allowed? and if your first example's literal translation is:
> 
> 这
> Here
> 里有
> there are
> 狼群
> wolves
> 出没。
> coming and going


 
Hi, bankei yotaku. I think you fully grasped the difference between "x群" and "一群x", and your translation of the first example is better than mine

As to the additional questions, although I said "x群" emphasizes the species (as compared to "一群x"), the "群" in it is not superfluous. That is to say, "狼" and "狼群" are different. As I understand it, you use "狼" when you talk about 1) something generally true of the species. For example, 狼不会飞。(Wolves can't fly.) or 2) a single wolf. For example, 这是一头埃塞俄比亚狼。(This is an Ethiopian wolf.) Those are two contexts I have in mind. Please know that they are not exhaustive.

In many other contexts, you use "狼群" to emphasize that wolves live in packs. For example,

埃塞俄比亚狼群所面临的主要威胁 (the main threats to the Ethiopian wolf)

要不是狼群回到黄石公园，这些树可能已经完全灭绝。(These trees could have died out entirely if wolves hadn't shown up in Yellowstone.)

他们像狼群一样蹿进银行。(They loped like wolves into the bank.)
(source:http://dict.youdao.com/search?q=%E7%8B%BC%E7%BE%A4&ue=utf8&keyfrom=dict.index#q%3D%25E7%258B%25BC%25E7%25BE%25A4%26ue%3Dutf8%26keyfrom%3Ddict.index
The original sentences are too long so I didn't cite them complete.)


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## bankei yotaku

sisuer said:


> As to the additional questions, although I said "x群" emphasizes the species (as compared to "一群x"), the "群" in it is not superfluous.



Hi sisuer, many thanks for the reply. As yet, I explained myself wrongly: I meant whether in "一群x" is the measure word that you don't use here (I would use, for instance, 个) simply superfluous, that is you may or may not use it, or it is forbidden; similarly, may I say "这是一狼", or must I say "这是一个狼": measure words are a feature very characteristic of Chinese, and they give me indeed an hard time trying to realize when should, or should not use them....!


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## SuperXW

bankei yotaku said:


> similarly, may I say "这是一狼", or must I say "这是一个狼": measure words are a feature very characteristic of Chinese, and they give me indeed an hard time trying to realize when should, or should not use them....!


 
I can take this question, since it's not hard for a Chinese. XP 
一只狼 
一匹狼 
一头狼 Ok
一狼  A measure word is necessary, unless in some literature
一个狼  个 is the common measure word for "things/human", but not for "animals"

As you said, measure words are a feature very characteristic of Chinese. The very basic one, as you might know, is 个. The second basic one could be 只/隻(traditional), 只 is for most animals.


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## bankei yotaku

SuperXW said:


> 只 is for most animals.



Many thanks. I admit that it is not easy to find one's way in measure words, without a good training in reading the language, even because the vocabulary is still a instrument difficult to use for me , but your explanations are indeed of great help! 

Thus "一只狼" translates "a wolf" and instead "一群狼" translates " a wolf-group": but then when I should use, say, "匹" rather than "头", or "只", for, say, "狼"? That is according to context, I suppose, but do the characters themselves address me to when should they be used and when not?


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## bankei yotaku

SuperXW said:


> (Sorry for my previous words if it confused you.)



Don't worry, I guess my confusion came well ahead of your words! and the latter made instead a bit of clearance anyway!


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## sisuer

bankei yotaku said:


> Thus "一只狼" translates "a wolf" and instead "一群狼" translates " a wolf-group": but then when I should use, say, "匹" rather than "头", or "只", for, say, "狼"? That is according to context, I suppose, but do the characters themselves address me to when should they be used and when not?


 
Hi, bankei. I think the match between nouns and measure words are rather fixed regardless of context. So find the most commonly used one and always use it.

Measure words sometimes confused me, too. For a single wolf, I'd use "头", but SuperXW dismisses this option as merely "ok". Then I asked my mom just now and she didn't think "一头狼" stand at all...So there can be individual preferences, though most of the time there is a "best answer".


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## SuperXW

To sisuer: I agree. It is hard to find a universal standard. I think 一头狼 is perfectly ok. Just my personal experience, 头 is more common to describe larger of fatter cattle, such as cow, pig and so on. 狼 is perhaps the smallest animal you can describe with 头.
Some people would even say 一条狼 as 条 can describe dog, and a wolf is similar to a dog. 狼 is perhaps the largest animal that can be describe with 条.

To bankei: In Chinese, a measure word modifies the noun's characteristic. There're bunch of selections. For now I think you only need to remember the several basic points:
1. A measure word is necessary between a number and a noun. (Few exceptions)
2. 个 can measure most things or people. 只 can measure most animals. 
3. 群 can measure a group of animals or people. 
Later when you need to learn more, you can find some books and websites for elaboration. 
e.g. The wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_classifiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_classifier


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