# 用以



## yuechu

大家好！
I have a question about the following sentence that I was reading today: "约翰·威廉的妻子安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇来自著名的意大利美第奇家族，她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用*以*收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。"
Does anyone know what 以 means here?
Thanks!


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## retrogradedwithwind

用以＝用来


PS，谁翻译的破句子啊。看这个句子更确定上次那个句子是病句了。


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## hx1997

I agree with retrogradedwithwind on the meaning of 以.

Also I did a quick Google search and found the article this sentence was extracted from (the same source as that disputed 病句). That article is understandable but arguably poorly written and I advise against learning from it.


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## yuechu

Thanks, retrogradedwithwind and hx1997, for your replies! That's good to know that they may not be well written...I still might read them though since they are interesting topics!
Are you sure that the articles are translations? I guess they might be, eh? I thought that they were originally written by the writer of the blog but perhaps they are translations...

May I ask what about it seems poorly written? Is it the syntax of the sentences?
Thanks again!


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## Skatinginbc

There are many problems with that sentence.  I'll just pick one that does not demand a long essay:


yuechu said:


> 来自著名的意大利美第奇家族


「義大利美第奇家族」著名嗎？ 沒聽過！ 所以原句邏輯很脆弱.  改成「來自意大利著名的美第奇家族」就通了，這樣，既使你中國人沒聽過，但人家在義大利可是很著名. 邏輯成立!


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## Jerome-dong

I don't see there is anything wrong with the phrase 来自著名的意大利美第奇家族。


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## retrogradedwithwind

现在中国各种媒介上滥用“著名”之类的词汇，随随便便什么九流演员都是“知名演员”，写过点文章就是“著名作家”，搞得著名这样的词汇都不值钱了。因此，说skating是“著名的海外华人skating先生”应该也是没问题的٩(◦`꒳´◦)۶ 

从这个意义上，“著名的意大利美第奇家族”也是可以接受的说法。skating大概不熟悉大陆词语使用的现状。

但skating说的，却是严格规范了著名这个词的用法。从逻辑上来说，确实要更完善一些。我比较支持。


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## Jerome-dong

As long as the writer/speaker thinks 意大利美第奇家族 is 著名的，the phrase is perfectly fine. You may disagree on his/her idea, but you can't say the sentence is wrong or poorly written. Just like you say "she is beautiful" - the fact that she is not beautiful doesn't make the sentence wrong.


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## retrogradedwithwind

美丽没有客观标准，著名是有的啊。

著名的九流网红✘✘✘。。。著名的美国大兵jack...

这些人真的很著名吗？


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## Skatinginbc

I didn't say that sentence was wrong.  I merely said it had many "problems" (weaknesses).  When many weaknesses come together, they form a poorly written sentence.  "Weak" and "strong" are relative.  It is not a dichotomous "yes vs. no", or "correct vs. wrong".   My remark in #5 argued that 来自意大利著名的美第奇家族 would make a stronger logical case than 来自著名的意大利美第奇家族.  It is "stronger vs. weaker", not "correct vs. wrong".

I'll give you another example: *约翰·威廉*的妻子*安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇*来自著名的*意大利美第奇*家族.  Although not grammatically wrong, it is weak, due to its lengthy jumble of foreign words.  To facilitate comprehension, the author needs to find a way to reduce the _*density*_ of "letter salad" (unintelligible mixture of words and phrases), for example, by adding distance between them.  One way is to break apart the sentence: "*约翰·威廉*的妻子叫做*安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇*。  她来自意大利著名的*美第奇*家族..."  The former has a higher density; the latter has a lower density.  It is "higher vs. lower", a relative term.
Also,  约翰·威廉的妻子安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇来自著名的意大利美第奇家族*，*(It should be a period, not comma) 她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用*以*收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。
I'm tired of listing every problem of that sentence, so I'm gonna stop right here.


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## Jerome-dong

It could be just me, but* 约翰·威廉*的妻子*安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇*来自著名的*意大利美第奇*家族 sounds perfectly fine to me. Like I said, it could be just me. 

As for punctuation marks, besides the comma you have pointed out, the last comma should be 顿号(、)， which is a mark that English doesn't have.

The only other "problem" I see is with the last part of the sentence, it should be 用*以*收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来*的*很多各个历史时期的绘画、雕塑等艺术珍品。（A "的" is missing）


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## Skatinginbc

Jerome-dong said:


> As long as the writer/speaker thinks 意大利美第奇家族 is 著名的，the phrase is perfectly fine. You may disagree on his/her idea, but you can't say the sentence is wrong or poorly written. Just like you say "she is beautiful" - the fact that she is not beautiful doesn't make the sentence wrong.


I agree with Retro that "著名" is relatively objective while "beautiful" (美丽) is relatively subjective.  The awareness of many people (therefore objectivity) is required in order to be called 著名.  That Chinese translation is written in Chinese for Chinese readers.  If 著名 is not limited in scope (e.g., by adding 義大利), then it is interpreted as being 著名 to 中國讀者.


> 她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用*以*收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。


I'm not sure if the author intends to mean that 酷爱艺术收藏的她, 曾设计一座巨型 「画廊」 (画廊, which sells the artworks on a regular basis; vs. 艺术馆, which does not sell the artworks on a regular basis)  以收藏她個人(or the museum 艺术馆??)「从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品」" ==> A gallery that sells her own art collections?  Or a non-profit museum for permanent collections (保藏)?  The author could have made it clearer by adding 她 (e.g., 曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，以展示她从欧洲各地搜罗来的...) or by changing some words (e.g., 曾设计一座庞大的艺术馆，以保藏欧洲各地搜罗来的...)


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## hx1997

保藏 is not an everyday word in mainland I'm afraid. We use 收藏 or 永久收藏 more (at least it is true where I live).

查了下，在大陆的语境下，画廊/艺术馆常常是混用的，所以作者写出这样的句子也不足为奇。只能说是两岸用语上有差异，当然大陆也有严格区分二者的。



Skatinginbc said:


> A gallery that sells her own art collections? Or a non-profit museum for permanent collections (保藏)?


I believe the author didn't consider this relevant so he/she chose to omit some details. The point of this whole sentence is 她酷爱艺术收藏; what follows is merely an example illustrating her passion for collection. The reader need only know that 她设计了一座庞大的画廊来收藏艺术珍品 to prove her passion, and the author has successfully achieved this. Who 搜罗'd the artworks in the gallery/museum is not relevant compared to the above point.


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## Mr.ZH来自中国

yuechu said:


> 大家好！
> I have a question about the following sentence that I was reading today: "约翰·威廉的妻子安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇来自著名的意大利美第奇家族，她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用*以*收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。"
> Does anyone know what 以 means here?
> Thanks!



"约翰·威廉的妻子安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇来自著名的意大利美第奇家族，她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。"

These two sentences have some bugs .
1. 来自著名的意大利美第奇家族  It's not reasonable . It means she comes from _the famous Medici family which comes from Italy _. While it should be she comes from the famous Italian family, Medici . There is a bit difference between the emphasis (red words) of these two sentences , do you think so ? Therefore , I am going to rewrite this sentence as "来自意大利著名的美第奇家族".
2. 用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。   "以" is not a single word but it should be "用以" while this phrase means _in order to_
Than , the bug of this sentence is predicate redundancy . 收藏 is a verb , and 搜罗 is a verb as well . “从欧洲各地搜罗来” is a describing part of the whole sentence , so there should be a "的" behind this part , so "从欧洲各地搜罗来*的*" . As well , "很多" and "各个" are somewhat redundant , we can omit the "很多" or replace it with “大量”. So I will rewrite this sentence as "用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来的各个历史时期的绘画、雕塑等艺术珍品". I show the breakup of this sentence with different colors and it represents how to read this sentence with correct rhythm as well . Also , notice the punctuation .


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## Skatinginbc

國語辭典.保藏: 把東西收藏起來以免遺失或損壞。 It can also be interpreted as 保存珍藏.

廊 (屋前簷下通行的走道) sounds smaller than 館.  画廊 is usually smaller than 藝術博物館 in scale.  庞大的画廊 therefore seems to be a contradiction in terms like 冗長的短篇小說 or 巨大的小狗.


hx1997 said:


> I believe the author didn't consider this relevant so he/she chose to omit some details. The point of this whole sentence is 她酷爱艺术收藏; what follows is merely an example illustrating her passion for collection. The reader need only know that 她设计了一座庞大的画廊来收藏艺术珍品 to prove her passion, and the author has successfully achieved this. Who 搜罗'd the artworks in the gallery/museum is not relevant compared to the above point.


No matter if it was intentional or not, the author's word choice may further define the *nature *of her passion for art collection.  Was her passion motivated by a selfish desire for possession of beautiful things?  Or was it motivated by cultural conservation? 「画廊是小贩」==> buy-and-sell--I mean the turnover of artworks is higher in 画廊 or, in other words, the ratio of permanent collection to total collection is higher in 藝術館 (藝術博物館 or 美術館).  Thus 美術館 or 藝術博物館 could better paint an image of a drive for art conservation and the public good, whereas 畫廊 goes better with an image of art promotion or a private interest.
讓我舉個例子吧.  Vancouver Art Gallery 一般翻成 「溫哥華美術館」而非「溫哥華藝術畫廊」.  譯者若把 "a vast art gallery" (描述溫哥華美術館) 翻成 「龐大的藝術畫廊」便是個不用大腦的偷懶直譯.

我腦中的畫廊有三種：
(1) 營利畫廊：代理某些當代畫家展示推銷其作品，或代理某些收藏家展示拍賣其珍藏.
(2) 有錢人家的私人畫廊：展示炫耀個人搜羅囤積的珍品.
(3) 公益畫廊：幫助當代新興畫家打開知名度 (註：譯者描述的畫廊收藏「歐洲的各個歷史時期」之作品，並非針對當代，故非此類).


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## yuechu

Mr.ZH来自中国 said:


> "约翰·威廉的妻子安娜·玛丽亚·路易莎·美第奇来自著名的意大利美第奇家族，她酷爱艺术收藏，曾设计一座庞大的艺术画廊，用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。"
> 
> These two sentences have some bugs .
> 1. 来自著名的意大利美第奇家族  It's not reasonable . It means she comes from _the famous Medici family which comes from Italy _. While it should be she comes from the famous Italian family, Medici . There is a bit difference between the emphasis (red words) of these two sentences , do you think so ? Therefore , I am going to rewrite this sentence as "来自意大利著名的美第奇家族".
> 2. 用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来很多各个历史时期的绘画，雕塑等艺术珍品。   "以" is not a single word but it should be "用以" while this phrase means _in order to_
> Than , the bug of this sentence is predicate redundancy . 收藏 is a verb , and 搜罗 is a verb as well . “从欧洲各地搜罗来” is a describing part of the whole sentence , so there should be a "的" behind this part , so "从欧洲各地搜罗来*的*" . As well , "很多" and "各个" are somewhat redundant , we can omit the "很多" or replace it with “大量”. So I will rewrite this sentence as "用以收藏从欧洲各地搜罗来的各个历史时期的绘画、雕塑等艺术珍品". I show the breakup of this sentence with different colors and it represents how to read this sentence with correct rhythm as well . Also , notice the punctuation .


Thanks for your detailed explanations in English, Mr. ZH! (Unfortunately, my Chinese isn't good enough yet to follow them very well in Chinese)

Thanks, everyone else, for your analysis of the sentence(s) too! It is very interesting.


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## nylg85

it simply means ''used for''.


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