# Plagiat - school work requests



## Toller

Hello,
I'm new to this forum.

I've just realised I've got to write a 40,000 word thesis for tomorrow morning and I haven't even started it! Can someone out there do it for me?

I did find a title though, it's 
_Getting Someone Else to do my Homework for me because I'm Too Lazy and Can't be Bothered_

Thanks,
Toller


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## Cath.S.

Great title.  
I'd love to help you out Toller but unfortunately I'm totally illiterate and dyslexic. 

Seriously, what are you on about ?


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## Toller

Je ne sais pas si vous en avez déjà discuté, mais vous n'en avez pas assez de cette mentalité que l'on voit de plus en plus, c'est à dire de ne pas essayer de faire soi-même un travail demandé par un professeur, de faire du copier-coller sur internet , d'aller sur un forum en espérant qu'un pigeon fera le travail à votre place..bref de ne pas assumer ses responsabilités?

Je ne veux pas faire le grincheux, mais je ne comprends pas.


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## Cath.S.

Je suis à 100% d'accord avec toi, Toller. Cependant je crois que ce sujet serait mieux dans les discussions culturelles. Au début, l'espace d'un instant, je me suis demandé si tu voulais que nous traduisions ton texte en français.


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## geve

Toller said:
			
		

> Je ne veux pas faire le grincheux, mais je ne comprends pas.


Ben c'est simple, pourtant : c'est vachement plus facile ! Duh.
C'est vrai, pourquoi s'emm... à écrire soi-même quelque chose, alors qu'il y a déjà tant de gens dans le monde qui ont écrit des trucs ? 

Bon, pour être sérieuse deux minutes, il me semble que le sujet a été discuté dans le forum Culturel. 
Ou bien était-ce le Comments&Suggestions ?


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## french4beth

Toller said:
			
		

> Je ne sais pas si vous en avez déjà discuté, mais vous n'en avez pas assez de cette mentalité que l'on voit de plus en plus, c'est à dire de ne pas essayer de faire soi-même un travail demandé par un professeur, de faire du copier-coller sur internet , d'aller sur un forum en espérant qu'un pigeon fera le travail à votre place..bref de ne pas assumer ses responsabilités?
> 
> Je ne veux pas faire le grincheux, mais je ne comprends pas.


 
Hi Toller,
This forum does get 'please do my homework' requests all the time - that's in addition to those who think that this is a free translation service!?!  I don't know if these people don't bother to read the forum rules & regulations, or if they just don't care  .  

Granted, if you don't speak French and don't understand something, we're happy to help (or if you're French, and don't speak any English, etc.); occasionally, a non-French speaker wants to find a French-sounding name for their boutique or shop - and we do help them!

But the free homework correction requests - do the students expect us to come to their classrooms & do their exams for them, too?  Don't they realize that their teachers are going to catch on very quickly that the student doesn't know what they're doing?  

I do have to say, the vast majority of students/users follow the forum rules, and simply ask for clarifications, etc.  Luckily, the people looking for us to do their work for them don't stick around for long!


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## OlivierG

L'équipe des modérateur essaie, autant que faire se peut, de couper court à ce genre de fils, en rappelant la règle n° 18 :


> These forums do not provide free schoolwork. If you want help with a school assignment, you are required to do your own work first. Then, and only then, you may post it with a request for help with specific doubts.


mais quelques-un parviennent probablement à passer à travers les mailles du filet.

Le sujet de ce fil de discussion n'étant pas conforme à ce qui est censé se trouver sur ce forum, je me vois contraint de le déplacer.

Olivier


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## ElaineG

Toller said:
			
		

> Hello,
> I'm new to this forum.
> 
> I've just realised I've got to write a 40,000 word thesis for tomorrow morning and I haven't even started it! Can someone out there do it for me?
> 
> I did find a title though, it's
> _Getting Someone Else to do my Homework for me because I'm Too Lazy and Can't be Bothered_
> 
> Thanks,
> Toller


 
Hey, what a coincidence!  I had to write a 40,000 word essay in French, and I don't know French that well anymore so I put it through Babelfish. Can you correct my translation?

Its title is: 
Obliger quelqu'un d'autre à faire mon travail pour moi parce que je suis trop paresseux et ne peux pas être tracassé:  les traducteurs d'ordinateur sont frais.Thanks for your help!


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## Cath.S.

I'm really glad this thread has been moved to the cultural discussions forum.  Thanks Olivier!

Toller, I have an explanation to offer about some people's laziness.

In our day and age, who still emphasizes the importance of culture for culture's sake, art for at's sake, knowledge for knowledge's sake? 

Such a utilitarian ideology prevails at all levels of education, young people are so often told that they must graduate - in order to get a well-paid job. So that's all they end up focusing on, they never come to realize that learning is tis own reward, and that its virtue extends well beyond its market exchange value.

I feel really sorry for those who ask us to do their homework for them, who show no interest in learning. I do because I know what they're missing out on, a pleasure that is very essential to our species, a pleasure that I know you, dear forer@s, share: that amazing feeling you get upon realizing you're not totally braindead!


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## timpeac

More for comments and suggestions we feel

Yes - as others have said, we do try to remove "do my homework for me" questions, and those which do their homework but then ask for it to be polished to perfection rather than having specifc doubts. It's not always easy to tell, but if anyone feels that the forums are being abused in this way they can alert the mods by the report a post feature in the top right hand corner of the message.


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## french4beth

Also, those of us who have learned a second, third, etc. foreign language outside the home know that it is only by making mistakes that you learn! And by doing endless, repetitive, boring grammar worksheets, unfortunately; but it's definitely worth it! Thanks to the forum, I learn more every day!

I've also studied Russian (used to read literature in Russian), a tiny bit of Spanish, and am now learning basic Japanese; and by studying foreign languages, I've improved my English skills immensely!

Apparently, when a recent quiz show first appeared, many students were showing up at their universities and asking their professors, "Ok, what do I need to know to win 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire'?"


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## Joelline

How fair is it to put all of the blame on the students when, in fact, many of the forum users enable the students in the quest to avoid doing work themselves?  A couple of times, a student has asked for a translation of a 2-300 word essay and I've replied, reminding the student of the rules--only to go back to that string and find someone has done the dam*^%& translation for them!  As a teacher, I want to weep or scream.  

I've thought about putting wordreference.com on my list of useful sites for my students, but have decided not to because I know what problems I'm going to run into when they submit work far too correct for what I know their learning level to be.  They're going to tell me that I told them about the site and suggested they use it!  As for alerting the mods  each time an offense occurs--have you any idea of how many alerts one would need to send out just from the English-only and English-French forums alone?  I'm sure all the other forums have the same problems.  

Finally, I do have one suggestion:  could the most-used forums be broken into levels (such as beginners, intermediate, advanced)?  Reading fascinating posts written by native speakers about the sometimes subtle differences between the imparfait and passé composé in the same forum where a student is asking why in "de belles maisons" the correct answer isn't "le beau maisons" is maddening.

OK, I'm just venting now...  sorry about that.  I do love this website and am truly sorry that, at this time, I cannot take the risk of sharing it with my students.


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## timpeac

Joelline said:
			
		

> How fair is it to put all of the blame on the students when, in fact, many of the forum users enable the students in the quest to avoid doing work themselves? A couple of times, a student has asked for a translation of a 2-300 word essay and I've replied, reminding the student of the rules--only to go back to that string and find someone has done the dam*^%& translation for them! As a teacher, I want to weep or scream.
> 
> I've thought about putting wordreference.com on my list of useful sites for my students, but have decided not to because I know what problems I'm going to run into when they submit work far too correct for what I know their learning level to be. They're going to tell me that I told them about the site and suggested they use it! As for alerting the mods each time an offense occurs--have you any idea of how many alerts one would need to send out just from the English-only and English-French forums alone? I'm sure all the other forums have the same problems.
> 
> Finally, I do have one suggestion: could the most-used forums be broken into levels (such as beginners, intermediate, advanced)? Reading fascinating posts written by native speakers about the sometimes subtle differences between the imparfait and passé composé in the same forum where a student is asking why in "de belles maisons" the correct answer isn't "le beau maisons" is maddening.
> 
> OK, I'm just venting now... sorry about that. I do love this website and am truly sorry that, at this time, I cannot take the risk of sharing it with my students.


 
Joelline - if you see a text where someone is asking for it to be perfected (eg not asking a specific question) or for a complete translation please use the report a post feature - we will cope.

However, knowing both the English only and the French-English forums quite well - I am not aware of such a weight of posts of this nature. This makes me wonder if you are counting threads asking about specific doubts in your comments? It is only general comments along the lines of "please tell me what is wrong with this text" that are proscribed - not questions along the lines of "can anyone tell me why I should use the present continuous in this sentence".

Please be assured that it is not our intention to allow anyone to pass of work as their own when it is not.

As for you question about "levels" within the forum - please start a new thread for a new question. Thanks.


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## Jana337

Joelline said:
			
		

> Finally, I do have one suggestion:  could the most-used forums be broken into levels (such as beginners, intermediate, advanced)?  Reading fascinating posts written by native speakers about the sometimes subtle differences between the imparfait and passé composé in the same forum where a student is asking why in "de belles maisons" the correct answer isn't "le beau maisons" is maddening.


Quite off-topic (), but let me address it: It would be impossible to partition the forums according to the level of discussion. Frequently, extremely interested discussions on an academic level are triggered by a question posted by someone who barely can say "thank you" in the respective language. Apart from the ever-recurring "I miss you" requests and such like, you can never tell in advance how complex a topic turns out to be. 

Jana


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## Cath.S.

> Joelline - if you see a text where someone is asking for it to be perfected (eg not asking a specific question


Hi Tim, 
does that mean in plain English "we don't do proof reading any longer"?


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## GenJen54

egueule said:
			
		

> does that mean in plain English "we don't do proof reading any longer"?


 
Hi egueule,

I can't speak specifically for Tim, but can shed some light on the situation. Proof-reading, especially in certain contexts, is almost as "bad" as doing someone else's work. 

Imagine someone who has to submit a "letter of proficiency" to a potential employer. If they were to submit it here first for corrections and "proofing," then later submitted the corrected version to the potential employer, are we really doing that person or their prospective employer a service? 

By asking for corrections and then submitting them as a part of his/her own work, that forer@, is in essence, misrepresenting his/her abilities and the potential employer is then led to believe that that person's abilities are better than they really are. 

The same can be applied to school situations. Part of learning in school is being corrected by your teacher. If we were to "proof" everything, then that student is turning in work that has already been corrected, and the work no longer reflects that individual's specific ability. Some might consider this "cheating," a bit, don't you think?


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## timpeac

egueule said:
			
		

> Hi Tim,
> does that mean in plain English "we don't do proof reading any longer"?


 
Yes - although nothing is ever black and white (how's that for sitting on the fence?) I think everyone agrees that it does no one any good to produce their homework, have the many brains here at WR make it 100%, have the student hand it in, and get the 100%. Not fair on the other students in the class and ultimately not fair on the student when the teacher doesn't recognise that they have specific problems. I think that this is Joelline's concern above - and certainly the most clear cut case.

Then there are the other moral questions that GenJen talks about about, which would suggest that on moral grounds we shouldn't condone such perfecting. However, on the other hand there are more acceptable passages posted for comment; passages posted by people who are trying to test themselves, and have no teacher to correct them for example - or other passages such as someone translating some song lyrics and wanting to know if they have got the sense correct. Etc etc.

It's a tough question - but I think where it is clear that homework is being perfected then that would be in violation of rule 18 because no specific question is being asked. I know that the English only mods and the French mods are of this opinion.

As I say - far from black and white, but I hope this gives some guidance!!


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## Cath.S.

Thank you for answering me Genjen and Tim, I can see the point you're making. The reason I asked is because we used to accept proofreading rather unquestioningly if my memory serves me well.



> Imagine someone who has to submit a "letter of proficiency" to a potential employer. If they were to submit it here first for corrections and "proofing," then later submitted the corrected version to the potential employer, are we really doing that person or their prospective employer a service?


Then why should we help translators to do their work, when they might have made a huge mistake, thus revealing their "true" level? The answer is very simple imo: if you teach somebody something, the knowledge instantly becomes theirs - no, more than theirs, it becomes a part of them. Being taught is accepting to be modified. Whereas copying and pasting a text someone wrote or corrected for you is refusing to be altered. 

What I think is that when we correct people, we should make sure that they learn something from it and that they understand every correction - to be on the safe side from a moral point of view.


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## timpeac

egueule said:
			
		

> Thank you for answering me Genjen and Tim, I can see the point you're making. The reason I asked is because we used to accept proofreading rather unquestioningly if my memory serves me well.
> 
> 
> Then why should we help translators to do their work, when they might have made a huge mistake, thus revealing their "true" level? The answer is very simple imo: if you teach somebody something, the knowledge instantly becomes theirs - no, more than theirs, it becomes a part of them. Being taught is accepting to be modified. Whereas copying and pasting a text someone wrote or corrected for you is refusing to be altered.
> 
> What I think is that when we correct people, we should make sure that they learn something from it and that they understand every correction - to be on the safe side from a moral point of view.


 
But we really don't want to put off people like Joelline recommending the site. I think that the rule of thumb is really the specific nature of the question required by rule 18 (note this is a relatively new rule) since this gets round most of the "moral question" issue. As a generalisation non-specific questions are not allowed - and to take your example if a translator was to post a whole passage asking for corrections, then yes that would be unacceptable. However if they post a couple of sentences for context asking about a specific word or phrase they don't know then that would be fine. This doesn't seem any less moral than providing a dictionary. If in answering the question we notice they have made another blunder, are we not going to say anything therefore? Well, no of course not - we don't need to take the moral guardianship issue to an extreme, but as I say, we don't need to get too bogged down in the morality of it all in the vast majority of instances. If there is a long passage with a question asking little more than "is this ok?" then it is unlikely to be acceptable. 

It really is such a subjective area - it goes without saying that all we want to do here is foster learning, and of course sometimes to further that aim, and stop people abusing the system, we need rules that may occasionally be a bit wide in their scope.


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## cuchuflete

I've been following this discussion with interest.  I do not believe it is useful or morally right to do another's work for them.  I do share Egueule's interest in teaching.  

We have sort of, almost, trained a few of the ESL students in the EO forum to walk down the middle of the road:  they post a multiple choice question, give their own preferred answer, and often their reason for choosing it.  Then they ask us to discuss the entire matter.  It is noteworthy that most of the time, these students have already selected the correct answer, and are really interested in gaining a deeper understanding of the linguistic/grammatical/syntactic topic.

I'm always pleased to participate in those threads.


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## panjandrum

This is a really hard question.
People here really enjoy being helpful.
When they see an obvious mistake, they like to point it out and suggest a correction.

But I feel that we are getting an increasing number of requests that amount to "please polish this piece of text for me", based on a desire either to avoid doing serious work or to improve the image they present.  That can't always be the most helpful thing to do? 
That can't always be the "right" thing to do?

A lot of this discussion is triggered by the dilemmas such requests are causing.  It troubles me, for example, when I see a piece of text presented here for comment along with a note such as, "Please help me, I really need to pass my exams and this is an essential piece of coursework that I must hand in tomorrow."  It is particularly troubling when the text is miles away from being acceptable English and forer@s immediately start turning the sow's ear into a silk purse.  That just can't be right.

I suppose you could say I am being inappropriately judgemental, but I am convinced that we should not be providing help in such cases.

The really tricky question is this.  How do we distinguish between a genuine request for help and a request that is deliberately avoiding work or aiming to misrepresent something?


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## charlie2

A declaration of interest first : I was one of those people who did post homework for help (texts, everything).

Being one of them, I have asked myself very often this question, perhaps too often, when I see threads asking people here to proofread something and get answered : How can they leave just like that? (And I don't mean the "Thank you" part or the lack of it.) They have understood every correction? I don't!
Sometimes I got so curious that I sort of "hijacked" the threads and used my favourite button called "follow-up questions".

I have read at least three threads in which people posted their exercises (text, fill-in-the-blanks, etc.) and in each of these threads, the responding member gave clues/hints/notes instead of the answers straight away. All those "posters" came back with their (second) try! You could not imagine how thrilled I was!


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## nofancypants

That's a really good idea.  I just came to this thread recenty after proof reading and correcting someone's French coursework (i'm only new so i didn't know this rule) and now I know I'll never do that again! I love helping people but maybe it is best that they try for themselves as it will be more beneficial to them in the long run!


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## Joelline

Egueule's statement that "What I think is that when we correct people, we should make sure that they learn something from it and that they understand every correction" seems to be the perfect compromise here.  For example, when I assign an essay in an English comp. class, I often have students submit a first draft.  I read it over carefully looking for *one or two patterns of serious errors*.  If I find several comma splices and pronoun antecedent errors (after I have taught this material), then I circle the first one or two instances and require the student to review comma splices and pro. antecedents and to find and correct the remaining errors of this type on his/her own.  I think this is what Eguele is suggesting, and I think it's a great idea.  The problem is that (1) it takes more time because you have to find the patterns and (2) you have to ignore (for the moment) other errors to get the student to focus on only one or two areas. 

As a teacher, I certainly would have no objections if someone else could teach my students what I haven't been able to get across to them!  I would welcome this assistance and would hope that if they heard the same advice from a forum member that they have heard in class, they might actually begin to believe!  When the student turned the paper in for my evaluation, I could then focus on other areas that might need development or improvement.  I doubt that the correction of *1 or 2* major grammatical error patterns would change the overall quality of the work or the overall grade. 

I think that many of the people on the forum like to teach (and who can blame them?) and, having been the recipient of their help in French, I know many are excellent teachers.  I would hate to deprive them or the students of what can be a very positive experience.

What think you?


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## cuchuflete

The mods have been discussing this for months.  First we added the rule about not doing homework for a student.  We continued to discuss, dispute, debate the two remaining problem areas:

1- requests for correction of lengthy text.  We all believe in pointing out problem areas, but not in rewriting entire passages. We can impose rules and 'train' posters not to expect a two page document to be scrutinized and corrected for every missing bit of punctuation.  We can be helpful teachers by doing what you have suggested.  Many of us have followed that pattern for quite a while.
2- The larger problem:  the foreros who rush in to show how smart they are, correcting everything in sight!  They often ignore the obvious fact that they are doing someone's homework!  We will be deleting such corrections.

Have a look at the announcement in the English Only forum.
If this works, we will expand it.  If it needs tweaking, we will look to the community for further good advice.

Growing pains...always fun.


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## Savoir

This is the only thread I glanced through from the beginning to the end. I've always stated my standpoint every now and then in another forum: I hate doing people's homework for those who haven't ever tried, though I don't object to correcting them, since I think students should have a right to know how their work should look properly, provided they don't expect to have a proofread for their every homework.

In Hong Kong, there's a new knowledge site, a really popular one which has been established for less than 2 months, but every body is submitting his/her homework to this site now, and the reward is points. People often give the highest points to lure people to do homework, and the simplest instruction they can give is "Write an essay on the topic XXXXX, 300 words, in English please" or "Translate this, no translation software please". I'M REALLY PISSED OFF (EXCUSE MY WORDING) WHEN I SEE THIS. AND I'M SAD THERE'RE ALWAYS PEOPLE, NOT JUST ONE DOING FOR THEM. Parents are expressing their concern on that forum too. THE SAD THING IS THERE'S SIMPLY NO OBJECTION AND ADMINISTRATION WHATSOEVER ON THIS USE OF THE FORUM.


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## french4beth

> We have sort of, almost, trained a few of the ESL students in the EO forum to walk down the middle of the road: they post a multiple choice question, give their own preferred answer, and often their reason for choosing it. Then they ask us to discuss the entire matter. It is noteworthy that most of the time, these students have already selected the correct answer, and are really interested in gaining a deeper understanding of the linguistic/grammatical/syntactic topic.


  
This sounds like a fantastic idea - prompt people to include their own responses, and then ask for clarification for items that's they're having problems understanding.


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## fenixpollo

timpeac said:
			
		

> ... and those which do their homework but then *ask for it to be polished to perfection rather than having specifc doubts*. It's not always easy to tell, but if anyone feels that the forums are being abused in this way they can alert the mods by the *report a post feature* in the top right hand corner of the message.


 Thanks for mentioning this, Tim.  I have been guilty, as it were, of not making this distinction in my past efforts to "help".  I will try to stay away from these threads in the future so as not to encourage the do-it-for-me crowd.


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## timpeac

I think I can speak for the other mods when I say we are very pleased that all of you seem to have the same thoughts and concerns as us on this issue.


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## foucrazyfoucrazy

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Proof-reading, especially in certain contexts, is almost as "bad" as doing someone else's work.


 
Hello, I'm not sure I'm welcome in this conversation (as most of the posts have been submitted by moderaters), but I would, nevertheless, like to point out that many of my teachers often ASK students to have their work proof-read before handing it in. Some will, in fact, not even _accept_ the work unless a rough copy with lots of corrections in red ink on it is handed in with the good copy, and there must also be the signature of the person who corrected it. 

Proof reading can't be that bad, can it?

~Fou/Crazy


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## GenJen54

foucrazyfoucrazy said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm not sure I'm welcome in this conversation (as most of the posts have been submitted by moderaters), but I would, nevertheless, like to point out that many of my teachers often ASK students to have their work proof-read before handing it in. Some will, in fact, not even _accept_ the work unless a rough copy with lots of corrections in red ink on it is handed in with the good copy, and there must also be the signature of the person who corrected it.
> 
> Proof reading can't be that bad, can it?


 
Proof reading in and of itself is not that bad.  Nor is pointing out errors.  Where the line is crossed is when forer@s ask native speakers to "correct" errors for them, then hand their work in under the guise that it is their work - when really they have corrections from people more fluent than themselves, including native speakers.

As for whether you are welcome in this conversation, of course you are!  All opinions are welcome here.


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## foucrazyfoucrazy

OoooooooooooooK (ok). I get it. Thanks. 
~Fou/Crazy


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## french4beth

foucrazyfoucrazy said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm not sure I'm welcome in this conversation (as most of the posts have been submitted by moderaters), but I would, nevertheless, like to point out that many of my teachers often ASK students to have their work proof-read before handing it in. Some will, in fact, not even _accept_ the work unless a rough copy with lots of corrections in red ink on it is handed in with the good copy, and there must also be the signature of the person who corrected it.
> 
> Proof reading can't be that bad, can it?
> 
> ~Fou/Crazy


 
We're all welcome here, foucrazyfoucrazy!  

I've never heard of such a thing - the teachers expect someone to do their job for them?  Aren't they the ones who are supposed to be teaching?   

Proofreading is definitely not bad - it's just irritating when a new user makes a post & expects us to do their work for them  .  I know from personal experience that the only way to learn foreign languages is to practice them over and over and over... which requires lots of practice, practice, practice!


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## foucrazyfoucrazy

french4beth said:
			
		

> I've never heard of such a thing - the teachers expect someone to do their job for them? Aren't they the ones who are supposed to be teaching?


 
That's sarcasm, right...? 
And thanks a lot for the explanation on proofreading.


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## cuchuflete

Hi FouFou,
You make a very valid point.  When the mods argued about this, and we did so very heatedly over many months, I tried to make the same point: If I proofread and correct an essay, I offer a student the chance to learn from their mistakes.

I still believe that. However, if I provide the corrections, many students will hand in my corrected version, as if it were their own, having learned nothing but how to get friendly foreros to do the job.  Therefore I seek a middle ground, and call a student's attention to patterns of errors, such as noun-verb agreement, and let them go back and find and correct the problems.

I've seen many atrocious passages posted here, which were totally rewritten by foreros.  Do we really have any reason to believe that those corrections led the students to learn something?


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## fenixpollo

foucrazyfoucrazy said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm not sure I'm welcome in this conversation (as most of the posts have been submitted by moderaters), but I would, nevertheless, like to point out that many of my teachers often ASK students to have their work proof-read before handing it in. Some will, in fact, not even _accept_ the work unless a rough copy with lots of corrections in red ink on it is handed in with the good copy, and there must also be the signature of the person who corrected it.
> 
> Proof reading can't be that bad, can it?
> 
> ~Fou/Crazy


 Actually, foucrazy, only 11 of the 29 posts above your first post were by moderators.  

The difficulty with your concept of editing is that it involves red ink -- and there is no ink here.  So as cuchu and others have said, our hard work has the potential of being converted into simply another translation site where students without integrity can have others do their work for them.

I agree with you that proofreading is not that bad, but there's a line between giving feedback for improvement and doing someone's work for them.  On the internet, it appears to be a fuzzy line....


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## timpeac

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Actually, foucrazy, only 11 of the 29 posts above your first post were by moderators.
> 
> The difficulty with your concept of editing is that it involves red ink -- and there is no ink here. So as cuchu and others have said, our hard work has the potential of being converted into simply another translation site where students without integrity can have others do their work for them.
> 
> I agree with you that proofreading is not that bad, but there's a line between giving feedback for improvement and doing someone's work for them. On the internet, it appears to be a fuzzy line....


 
And, I might add, so difficult to moderate - if there is a post open for general comment then sure as eggs are eggs someone will come along and correct the whole thing sooner or later. So unless we can look at every post immediately then the whole solutions get through before we can notice and delete them.


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## foucrazyfoucrazy

Ok. So they might just copy and paste what the foreros have written, and then hand it in and call it their own work. I don't suppose that could teach the person who asked to have their work corrected very much. But then, if the person who corrects the work, instead of re-writing the entire paragraph, uses the strike-through tool to cross out the words that are wrong, and writes suggestions/corrections in red ink (Which you CAN use! see?), then the person who asked to have their work corrected will HAVE to read the corrections, because if they just copy and paste, they'll have words with lines through them and words in red ink on the good copy. If they handed in a copy like that, the teacher (or whoever they hand it in to) would (or SHOULD) certainly realize that the student (or whoever wrote the thing) didn't do the corrections themselves, and didn't bother to look at the corrections done by someone else. Then they can deal with the matter by telling the student (or whoever) to re-write the paper (or whatever it is). 

I hope this makes sense, I wrote it sort of hurriedly, and (oh-oh! ) I didn't take the time to proofread it. 

~Fou/Crazy


----------



## GenJen54

> and writes suggestions/corrections in red ink (Which you CAN use! see?),


 
Yes, but then the forer@ can use the "suggestions" as his/her own work. 

One happy compromise would be if forer@s would use the "red ink" feature to point out what is *incorrect* then suggest the original poster make corrections to these areas. 

Making "suggestions" or "corrections" gets us right back to the issue of people doing others' work.


----------



## foucrazyfoucrazy

But they would learn something, because they would have to read the corrections when they were changing them from red ink to the correct colour, and getting rid of the crossed out words. At least, if I were the one writing the thing, I wouldn't be able to do it without reading the corrections. And, as Chuchuflete writes (or as i understood it, anyway) they would learn from their mistakes if they'd read the corrections.

~Fou/Crazy


----------



## Cath.S.

foucrazyfoucrazy said:
			
		

> But they would learn something, because they would have to read the corrections when they were changing them from red ink to the correct colour, and getting rid of the crossed out words. At least, if I were the one writing the thing, I wouldn't be able to do it without reading the corrections. And, as Chuchuflete writes (or as i understood it, anyway) they would learn from their mistakes if they'd read the corrections.
> 
> ~Fou/Crazy


FouCrazy,
it takes *one second* to change the red ink to black. ctrl + a, then select black and you're done.
Sorry.


----------



## cuchuflete

Hi Foufou,
Here's something that is as unsurprising as it is illogical:
A student who will not proofread his own work will post it here,
then take the little trouble needed to use global search and replace to delete all of this. Next, said student will remove the remaining blank spaces, change red to black, and hand it in as original work.

Earlier today I reviewed a paper from a trusted, hard-working forera.  She specifically asked that I not make corrections, but
point out areas that might need attention. I changed the text color for a few passages that needed help, without saying what I thought was wrong with them.

I received a very kind thank you note.

I'm very happy to help those who would take the trouble to help themselves!

regards,
Cuchu


----------



## cirrus

Interesting thread.  I am sure I am not alone in having put in lines to homework posters to the effect that WR works is you put your ideas first.  

I notice that even when native speakers give a correction it is often not taken up, precisely because the person posting the thread hasn't sufficient expertise in their target language to take the hint.  Nevertheless I think it would be a shame to put off students.  When I was studying at school and university I would have killed to have had a resource like this.  I find myself still asking questions which have been bugging me on and off for over thirty odd years.


----------



## Kelly B

I agree with you, cirrus, and we're trying _not _to put off the many students who are clearly asking questions to gain understanding. Of course students can learn from paragraph corrections, too, but it is awfully easy to just take them and run. 
Students, and all of us, can learn from your own ages-old questions and answers too, so keep them coming.


----------



## Eugens

I'm also worried that this could put off people asking questions to gain understading.
I think that the big problem is that it can be impossible to distinguish between people who want to have a piece of writing corrected to hand it in to some authority as their own work (corrections and all); and those who write something, out of their own personal interest, not to submit it to anyone and want to have it corrected in the forums in order to practise a language and learn from the corrections. Perhaps the latter don't have any teacher in real life to proofread for them. I think that it can be impossible to tell the difference between them, unless those of the former group make their real intentions all too evident by saying "this is my homework" or by wanting to have their (perhaps disatrous) work entirely rewritten by other foreros.

I am worried that the new rules affect negatively those of the second group. It would worry me if the new regulations meant no more proofreading, or only pointing out patterns of mistakes but not all mistakes. When I post something I wrote in the forums, I would like people to tell me about all my mistakes! It's true that one can learn from his/her mistakes, but only if one has those mistakes corrected soon after one makes them. If one doesn't notice his/her mistakes, one keeps making them and they get reinforced. Look.

I think I like Cuchu's idea of pointing out problematic phrases and expressions by, say, changing the text colour or underlining them. In that way, people are forced to ponder over what's wrong, instead of being told the answer at once. But I only like the idea if it includes underlining all problematic areas and if I eventually can't come up with the right answer, someone tells me what it is! 

PS. Of course, if you want to correct this post or anything I've written, you are more than welcome.


----------



## deddish

Hello,

I think it's a good thing to not do people's work for them, because then, yes, they will never learn anything from it. If they are really interested in learning languages, then they shouldn't leave their 4000 word essay that's worth half their term mark 'til the night before it's due and then ask other people to do it for them. ...but I agree it's hard to tell when to help them or not; it's very easy to _claim_ that you're learning a language for personal interest and in reality send in perfected work to a teacher. (But of course, if you're actually learning a language for fun, then you _probably_ wouldn't ask for people to do copious amounts of work for you...)

When people ask for their work to be proofread, I think the best idea is to underline or otherwise highlight problematic areas and perhaps add a one or two-word explanation, such as "gender accord," "incorrect tense," "anglicism." Then, if they still can't figure out the problem, they can ask that small question specifically, and then it's more likely they're actually learning something- and learning it correctly.

One nice thing is that teachers are getting more computer-savvy, as far as I can tell. A lot of them make sure they get impromptu work at the beginning of the year that could not have been cheated on in any way- written in class being the best measure- and then if they see a sudden improvement of someone's use of a language, they can plug in a specifically doubtful text into Google, and voilà, it will direct them immediately to the WR thread it was copied from. 

...All I can think of when I hear of the people who send in their homework for translation was a story my old French teacher told me about a student who quite honestly plugged their work into Babelfish or a similar translator, but accidentally translated it into Spanish instead... sorry, that's irrelevent...


----------



## river

Whether someone is submitting homework is not for us to judge. As long as someone is making an effort, I do not see a moral issue here. As a parent I check my children's homework every night, but there are many children whose parents are unable or unwilling to check homework. Why don't teachers out there offer to check their students' homework before they turn it in. That would be the moral thing to do.


----------



## foucrazyfoucrazy

river said:
			
		

> Why don't teachers out there offer to check their students' homework before they turn it in. That would be the moral thing to do.


 
Some of my teachers sometimes do.  But only some, and only sometimes.


----------



## cuchuflete

> As long as someone is making an effort, I do not see a moral issue here. As a parent I check my children's homework every night, but there are many children whose parents are unable or unwilling to check homework.



I agree with you on both points, River.  I'm happy to check work, in a way that allows and helps the student to learn.  That's not the same as doing the homework for them.  

I'm sure when you find an error on your children's homework you properly point it out to them.  I doubt you re-write their essays for them.


----------



## river

We are all in agreement over the obvious outrage: I need an original translation of the Aeneid by Monday. Could someone help? But to submit a paragraph or a multiple choice question (which even the natives stuggle with) for comments and suggestions? Why not assume an enthusiasm and a zeal for learning rather than a desire to get out of work.

No, I will not re-write my sons' essays, but I will pick at it until it is acceptable (not perfect).


----------



## panjandrum

The response to apparently-homework and straight proof-reading requests is evolving.  It seems to me that there is a great deal of common ground here.
Don't DO homework, or assist in people misrepresenting their ability.
(This includes: don't simply correct the text someone is going to submit to an employer/ academic institution as evidence of competence in XXXXX language) 
Do provide advice and help people improve.

It is easier to correct than to explain what is wrong.
It is more helpful to explain what is wrong than to correct.


----------



## soundbwoy

While doing someone's work for them is quite obviously wrong on a number of levels, I think that my thread was locked unfairly.

There is no coursework for French in the GCSE or AS exam; any proofreading, however "deep", can only be beneficial and useful to a student. You can't submit written work - the written part of the exam changes in every paper and could be on any topic. 

I submitted a section of my French ORAL exam, I wasn't particularly specific, but I wanted to know how to say "to get one's hands on something", which was included within the passage so that the context was obvious to anyone reading it. 

Thread Locked.

Pretty disappointed, because I thought that if there was any place I could get help on the (pretty complicated) nuances of the french language, it'd be on my favourite dictionary website's forums. You might think school teachers are there to read every single piece of work you do and to correct it, but they simply don't have the time. I thought the helpful and enthusiastic members of this forum could tackle it instead. 

If it wasn't for the fact that my mum did a french degree at Cambridge I'd be pretty stuck right now. As it is, it turns out my translation was ok apart from dénicher, which we're currently having a look at. 

I think you should at least try to distinguish between people asking for people to do their whole homework or people trying to understand how to say something. There is no sensible way to make my (already small) translation any smaller to get past your "plagiarism" censor, unless you wanted it split into separate sentences, which, given the continuation of meaning and structure of my translation, would be pretty ridiculous. 

*Oh, and an edit. If you think that a "deep proofread" will get past a teacher, that's pretty misguided. It'd be as obvious as someone submitting an "internet translator" homework; just as obvious. No-one understands the nuances of the french language as well as you guys, so perhaps it's necessary to be a little less anal about the plagiarism question.

Frankie


----------



## timpeac

soundbwoy said:
			
		

> While doing someone's work for them is quite obviously wrong on a number of levels, I think that my thread was locked unfairly.


It is against WR rules to discuss mod actions in the forum. If you have a grievance please contact the relevant moderater direct.


			
				soundbwoy said:
			
		

> There is no coursework for French in the GCSE or AS exam; any proofreading, however "deep", can only be beneficial and useful to a student. You can't submit written work - the written part of the exam changes in every paper and could be on any topic.
> 
> I submitted a section of my French ORAL exam, I wasn't particularly specific, but I wanted to know how to say "to get one's hands on something", which was included within the passage so that the context was obvious to anyone reading it.
> 
> Thread Locked.


The rule is not meant to prevent cheating only in public exams, but to prevent people passing off work that is not theirs period.


			
				soundbwoy said:
			
		

> Pretty disappointed, because I thought that if there was any place I could get help on the (pretty complicated) nuances of the french language, it'd be on my favourite dictionary website's forums. You might think school teachers are there to read every single piece of work you do and to correct it, but they simply don't have the time. I thought the helpful and enthusiastic members of this forum could tackle it instead.


It is - but questions must be specific. It's just mass general improvements we are trying to catch here. If you are unsure of how to translate a phrase then open a thread (one per question) give your try, state if there is anything in particular you find hard and ask for help - people will be pleased to give you comment.


			
				soundbwoy said:
			
		

> If it wasn't for the fact that my mum did a french degree at Cambridge I'd be pretty stuck right now. As it is, it turns out my translation was ok apart from dénicher, which we're currently having a look at.
> 
> I think you should at least try to distinguish between people asking for people to do their whole homework or people trying to understand how to say something. There is no sensible way to make my (already small) translation any smaller to get past your "plagiarism" censor, unless you wanted it split into separate sentences, which, given the continuation of meaning and structure of my translation, would be pretty ridiculous.


At the end of the day we don't do general improvements of translations, just answer specific questions. Sorry if this has disillusioned you about what these forums can offer you, but that's the way it is.


			
				soundbwoy said:
			
		

> *Oh, and an edit. If you think that a "deep proofread" will get past a teacher, that's pretty misguided. It'd be as obvious as someone submitting an "internet translator" homework; just as obvious. No-one understands the nuances of the french language as well as you guys, so perhaps it's necessary to be a little less anal about the plagiarism question.Frankie


We don't think so. Yes, the people in the French forum are excellent, which is precisely why if they corrected *your *homework it would get top marks and not be fair on your classmates and ultimately you. Please feel free to ask about any specific concerns you have, and please do not use this thread about the general policy on homework to air particular grievances about a specific case. 
Tim (with a mod hat on)


----------



## soundbwoy

Well, that seems fair enough. 

Thanks for the clarification.

(It was s'emparer)


----------



## cuchuflete

Hi Frankie,
I understand your frustration.  Still, things like this--


> so perhaps it's necessary to be a little less anal about the plagiarism question.


 are perhaps not the most effective way to win friends and collaborators.

If ever you feel some action taken by fellow foreros or mods is not right, please do let us know by PM.  As humans, we are error-prone, but are also willing to correct our own mistakes and mis-judgments when they are pointed out courteously.

regards,
Cuchuflete
Forero and Moderator


----------



## Cath.S.

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Do provide advice and help people improve.
> 
> It is easier to correct than to explain what is wrong.
> It is more helpful to explain what is wrong than to correct.


...don't feed them fish, teach them how to use a fishing rod. 
(to praraphrase / plagiarize Mao Zedong)


----------



## soundbwoy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hi Frankie,
> I understand your frustration. Still, things like this--
> are perhaps not the most effective way to win friends and collaborators.
> 
> If ever you feel some action taken by fellow foreros or mods is not right, please do let us know by PM. As humans, we are error-prone, but are also willing to correct our own mistakes and mis-judgments when they are pointed out courteously.
> 
> regards,
> Cuchuflete
> Forero and Moderator


 
I apologise, my whole message was a bit angry and immature and I'm glad someone picked up on it  
I understand why the action was taken, it's really my own fault for not reading the rules carefully enough. Just a bit stressed because my mock's on tuesday :O


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## Chaska Ñawi

I, too, have been guilty of over-polishing, probably because I can't help editing any more than I can breathing.

However, usually in these cases I get the sense that the material is not homework, so much as a translation by somebody for purposes of their work.  Some examples are translating signs, pamphlets, instruction manuals and information bulletins.  In these cases, the person usually has already made an honest stab at something and I don't mind giving them a polished version without making them struggle for it (but will stop if mods feel it's inappropriate).

I hadn't thought of using report-a-post for "Please do all my homework" threads, but can certainly start doing so.


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## soundbwoy

Will you all please shut up and do my homework


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## Savoir

I aired my concerns in another forum about homework requests, as I'd stated in my original post. Those requests were as simple as Translate this, please or Write a composition of 300 words or Give me points for the following questions, quick. These requests were posted mainly on the last day of 3 consecutive days' of holiday. There're always people doing the jobs for those lazy students for the sake of points, and they always give the highest points. One of my threads of complaint was deleted because it was reported to the administrator. So I raised it from the grave by posing it as a translation request in disguise. I've got two responses so far, one giving me a link to babelfish, the other asking me if I've lost my mind. Fortunately, I got more positive responses in my other thread. Many people helping out in that forum are against homework request, but not the administrators. 

I don't know why I feel so bad about those homework requests. If they were my sons and daughters I would use violence. I should be happy, in fact. If they're not learning, while my child is learning, she'll be definitely in a better position and have a better future than they. Sorry for my crazy words in a crazy mood.


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## geve

Hello everyone,

I haven't posted in this thread so far but I fully agree with the rule that is discussed here and the philosophy behind it. I think a thread is interesting when everyone can learn something in it. Correcting a sentence can be interesting for everyone if explanation and rules are provided, not just a plain crossed out phrase and a correction in red. 
I remember a thread in EO once, where someone was trying wild guesses to answer a question on an online quizz, and ended up finding the right answer by accident -how frustrating it was to see that time had been spent trying to figure out something and, in the end, all it resulted in was a random word with no clue why it fit the original question (of course that thread was closed, EO mods are just as efficient as the others  ).

Anyway, I think the topic has been discussed in better words by others before me. But here's something I wonder about: I appreciate the reinforcement of the policy, and think it was a very good idea to make it more visible, especially for newcomers, but I fear we might be experiencing a bit of paranoia sometimes... this thread can illustrate what I mean - I'm not blaming the poster in that thread, as I have hesitated more than once when reading a thread that could be on the verge of homework assignment...or not. (obviously I am not talking about threads with a 30-lines paragraph bearing the title "please proofread my assignment" - there are a lot of more subtles threads!) 
Usually I refrain from posting in threads that I'm unsure of, and wait to see if some mod action is being done. I don't want to click on the red  button every time I have doubts; I have the feeling I already use that button too often...
My point is, we know the rules, we have read this thread here, we have seen the announcement, we have been very well trained by the Fr-En mods  , so now, we easily get suspicious and can't help wondering: is it Ok to reply to that thread?  
As I wrote earlier, my criteria is that a thread is interesting when everyone can learn something in it... and if it more or less revolves around a consistent topic. Is it enough to assess the relevance of a thread?


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## timpeac

I think that when we first introduced the rule it was quite zealously enforced to help everyone get used to the new idea, which requires quite a different mind set in many cases. I think that you have picked up well on the principle behind the rule, and if you stick to that you should be fine. If you find that you have replied to something a moderator considers homework, then I wouldn't worry too much - I think if it is a border line case no one will hold it against you

Let's not forget that all posters are asked to "have a go" at their translation, even if they are not sure at all. Sometimes it will happen that they really have no idea where to start - which can happen - and then they should really say so, and of course we shouldn't be talking about more than one phrase at a time.

I think we're all trying to apply the spirit of the rule, both mods and foreros doing their best, we will get it wrong from time to time but I think we are all getting it right the vast majority of the time


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

I've just found this thread. Really interesting... As I like being the Devil's advocate, even if my English is a little weird (yes, I know, it's a euphemism!), I'll go with my stone. 
Actually, do you think there is really a need of any rule of that type? If nobody answers to a post which is obviously a not-yet-worked-homework, I'm sure the same poster won't ask again that way. If someone else wants to answer, who cares? If someone wants to merely give some clues, why not? Let us free to be stupid or not. 

Edit: yes, maybe I'm an anarchist.


----------



## cuchuflete

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> Actually, do you think there is really a need of any rule of that type? If nobody answers to a post which is obviously a not-yet-worked-homework, I'm sure the same poster won't ask again that way. If someone else wants to answer, who cares? If someone wants to merely give some clues, why not? Let us free to be stupid or not.
> 
> Edit: yes, maybe I'm an anarchist.



As a fellow anarchist, I offer an opinion or two or three...

Yes there is a need.  Asking others to do one's homework is dishonest and unethical.  Anarchism does not advocate such things, and must acknowledge that they exist and must be dealt with.

The larger problem are not those who ask for such help, but the unthinking few who rush in to show how smart they are by giving answers, in advance of understanding the nature of the question.

These forums have clear objectives, which do include--in fact have a central focus--support for learning. Our objectives exclude dishonest behavior and other things which impede learning.



> If someone wants to merely give some clues, why not?


  We agree, and advocate giving clues that will help a student identify, understand, and learn to correct mistakes.

Finally, there is a rather mundane, practical consideration.  These forums do strive to attract more members who share our values.  If we allow cheating, and help for it, many servers may block the WR forums.  This does not serve learning, or the forum community.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

I fully agree. Being the Devil's advocate seems not that easy nowadays. 
I wanted to point out more generally that our society thinks rules can solve all our problems. Law is everywhere, even in forums.


----------



## geve

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> I wanted to point out more generally that our society thinks rules can solve all our problems. Law is everywhere, even in forums.


I don't view the rules here as only a way to solve problems. On a forum, like in any society, association, gathering of people, there's a need for a framework, so that it's clear why we are here and what we want to make of this place. The fact that guidelines and rules are clearly stated allow newcomers to understand easily the purpose and the spirit of this forum. 

I had never been too much of a forum person until registering here, and now, every time I browse another forum in search of information, I can't help comparing it to WRF. Of course, as I come here quite often, I tend to find that there's always something missing in all other forums.  
I find that this forum is exceptionnally well organised and runs smoothly, and that's what makes it such a cosy place where to hang out. If a new rule is required, or an existing rule needs to be reinforced for general 'smoothness', I'm willing to take it.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

geve said:
			
		

> I don't view the rules here as only a way to solve problems. On a forum, like in any society, association, gathering of people, there's a need for a framework, so that it's clear why we are here and what we want to make of this place. The fact that guidelines and rules are clearly stated allow newcomers to understand easily the purpose and the spirit of this forum.
> 
> I had never been too much of a forum person until registering here, and now, every time I browse another forum in search of information, I can't help comparing it to WRF. Of course, as I come here quite often, I tend to find that there's always something missing in all other forums.
> I find that this forum is exceptionnally well organised and runs smoothly, and that's what makes it such a cosy place where to hang out. If a new rule is required, or an existing rule needs to be reinforced for general 'smoothness', I'm willing to take it.


I think this rule is not for me. If you want to take it, no problem, but I think it's not for you either. 
And yes, geve you said it: "like in any society"... I can regret people are never mature enough to do their self-control... That was my point. Full stop.


----------



## ethanx

I know this is quite old a thread,but I just wanted to say what I think about the subject being discussed here. I cant really see the point of banning the correction of school or profesional work. Personally, I think it should just be up to members whether to decide to do it or not.I have read some teachers´ opinions, and I must say that,being myself both a student and a teacher,I dont really mind if my students "get that kind of help" or not. After all,it´s just their problem.Some teachers here seem to be horrified by the sole idea of their students getting their school work corrected before it´s handed in. All of a sudden, I´ve realized why I get on so well with my students,whereas other teachers dont at all. You just can´t push people into education.Of course, I know when a student has not done something by himself but, do I have to care? No, I dont think so, at least not up to that point some teachers here do. I simply reckon this is quite a ridiculous banning.


----------



## TrentinaNE

Not everyone shares your philosophy, ethanx. As cuchu noted above:


> Finally, there is a rather mundane, practical consideration. These forums do strive to attract more members who share our values. If we allow cheating, and help for it, many servers may block the WR forums. This does not serve learning, or the forum community.


As a student and former professor myself, I must say that I find your approach puzzling, but to each his/her own. 

Elisabetta


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

The issue is what is called "cheating"? If a student is doing research on internet for homeworks —that is to say work to be done at home, right?— is it cheating asking for any help?
Maybe there is a cultural difference here. I remember many years ago  (in France) when a student, I used to search on dictionnaries and encyclopedia for doing my homeworks and I would have been glad to search on the internet too, I would have learnt a lot this way.
When teachers wanted to know our precise "value", we had to do not "home" but "school" works watched by someone during couples of hours. Those "school" works got a higher weighting (?) mark than homeworks (if those got any marks).
Of course if the student only ask for a translation not even trying one themselves, that's another issue...


----------



## Jana337

> The issue is what is called "cheating"? If a student is doing research on internet for homeworks —that is to say work to be done at home, right?— is it cheating asking for any help?


Internet is a legitimate source for learning. Students are allowed to seek help here, and many do. It's very rewarding to see their language skills improve. 

Cheating means to have your work done or polished off by natives. You must have seen quite a few corrected assignments in the WRF threads. Many of them end up being more red than black. To hand in something like that is both ridiculous and pathetic. The teacher is deprived of an important signal; the student seems to be doing well - until the exam.

Another consideration: If we acquired a reputation of a place where you can have your texts proofread by natives, it would stifle our usual business: discussions.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

My point is: helping someone asking for help is not a crime. However asking someone to do your homework is a matter of self honesty (?). The one who will be punished eventually is the student. When in front of a subject by his own with no native around to help him, he will certainely fail his exam.
Do I have to add I'm against deep proofreading too?
About the warning the teacher would not have, it's the matter of the teacher: s/he should ask for more "school" works.
And I fully agree with the argument of the "reputation of the place".

Edit: oops, sorry I just realized it's a C&S thread! I thought it was a CD one. Nothing to add then.


----------



## timpeac

ethanx said:


> I know this is quite old a thread,but I just wanted to say what I think about the subject being discussed here. I cant really see the point of banning the correction of school or profesional work. Personally, I think it should just be up to members whether to decide to do it or not.I have read some teachers´ opinions, and I must say that,being myself both a student and a teacher,I dont really mind if my students "get that kind of help" or not. After all,it´s just their problem.Some teachers here seem to be horrified by the sole idea of their students getting their school work corrected before it´s handed in. All of a sudden, I´ve realized why I get on so well with my students,whereas other teachers dont at all. You just can´t push people into education.Of course, I know when a student has not done something by himself but, do I have to care? No, I dont think so, at least not up to that point some teachers here do. I simply reckon this is quite a ridiculous banning.


If I were a teacher I would also prefer that my students had their homework pre-corrected - less work for me!


----------



## fenixpollo

ethanx said:


> Of course, I know when a student has not done something by himself but, do I have to care? No, I dont think so, at least not up to that point some teachers here do. I simply reckon this is quite a ridiculous banning.


 In this thread, we have discussed many issues, including (a) students getting help in doing their homework, and (b) students having us do their homework for them.  I assume that you're objecting to a prohibition to (a) only, because an acceptance of (b) would show a worrisome lack of integrity in a teacher.


----------



## Alxmrphi

But what about if a student has an essay to write and tries to do it, and then gets it corrected to a very good level here and then the student looks at all the improvements and learns them?

That's what I have always done, granted I never mention when it's homework, but where a native might say "Here I'd use this instead...."

I'd make a note of it and try my best to memorise it for the next time I ever use it, if students study the changes by natives, that's just a really good method of learning.

Also granted we can't tell who will just hand it in to a teacher without looking at it, but what I can't decide is, is that better than depriving the students who would study all changes in a hope to better themselves in that language?


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## ireney

a) There are quite a few threads in which members ask if a phrase they have in mind is OK in X language. The replies usually include alternative wording, explanations on word order and whatnot. This, I think, covers students who want to learn how to use language more effectively.
b) If a student wants to read a flawless text in language X there's enough literature of most languages readily available.
c) If the student wants to learn from his/her mistakes he/she can wait for the teacher to correct them and explain what was wrong. Why should we do a teacher's job? Since the student will get his/her input on his/her text, chances are the reason he/she wants it proofread is to get a better grade . 

You in particular Alex may not belong to this category and I can tell you that you belong to a small minority that I applaud. But the thing is, when I read your post, my first wistful thought was that I never, ever had a student who thought like you on the matter.


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah, when I was doing French at school I never would have dreamed of coming to a place like this for extra help, it annoyed me and I barely scraped a pass, but now I am doing it as a hobby, but with Italian this time, I wish I could go back and just somehow express the importance and benefits of, well, doing as I described above, and enjoying it.


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## zachsheets

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. 

I understand that this has sparked a really interesting debate about plagiarism and the purpose of these forums, but everyone did get the fact that Toller's *original post was sarcastic, right?*

A 40,000 word thesis would take hundreds of hours to write, and his title is something about getting people to do his homework for him on the internet. I'm not sure if the sarcasm comes through to everyone whose native language isn't english, but it's clearly a joke. That said, I'm finding this discussion fascinating. Please continue.


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## TrentinaNE

Zach, I think the first few responses upthread clearly indicate that Toller's sarcasm was understood (although I don't know what he asked in his French follow-up).

But, gee, thanks for reviving a thread that has been dormant for 3 years and is of dubious relevance now that the rules and customs of the forum *HAVE MOVED ON.* 

Elisabetta


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