# Names ending with a sibilant



## Kumpel

*Peters Katze* is Pete*r**'s* cat.
*Der Kreuzestod Jesu* is Jesu*s'* crucifixion. (As I understand it, Biblical characters' names are declined as in Latin.)
What about *Tomas' cat*, *Alex's cat**, *Franz's**** cat*?

*I can imagine *Alexs Katze*, but then how is it pronounced?
**Not too certain about the English - _Franz'_ vs. _Franz's_

Also, pluralising family names:
_die *Müllers*
the *Müllers*
the *Müller *family_

_die ..._
_the ..._ (I'll be honest, I'm not sure how I'd write this in English - *Phillipses*?)
_the *Phillips *family_

I asked my German teacher a while back, but she didn't have a clue.

Hoping you can shed some light,
Lloyd


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## Frank78

What's your question exactly? 

Names ending with a sibilant take an apostrophe in the German genitive:

Heinz' Auto, Max' Handy, etc. - the pronunciation stays the same as in Heinz, Max. etc.

(I think in English both is possible: Alex' cat and Alex's cat)


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## Meyer Wolfsheim

Frank78 said:


> What's your question exactly?
> 
> Names ending with a sibilant take an apostrophe in the German genitive:
> 
> Heinz' Auto, Max' Handy, etc. - the pronunciation stays the same as in Heinz, Max. etc.
> 
> (I think in English both is possible: Alex' cat and Alex's cat)


 
No, in English you can't say Alex' cat (Alex cat or even if you meant Alexes=Alex')

If the word already ends in an s, you simply add -es in the pronounciation.  

The Philipps

The Philipps' Cat.  

I am thinking very vaguely that there might be a rule which allows what you're saying but I think thats the German one haha.


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## Hutschi

In German you can say "Alex' Katze" or "Alexes Katze" (the last one is dated and seldom used.)

PS: There is an alternate form "Alexens Katze" which was quite common but is seldom used now.

This is also for "Fritz": Fritz' Katze, Fritzens Katze, Franz Katze, Franzens Katze. 

(The "ens" forms are old and seldom used now. But they exist. So there is a band name "Fritzens Dampferband". http://www.deutsche-mugge.de/index.html?inter/fdb/fdb.htm

---

So there are three possible forms in German building the genitive with endings.


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## Frank78

Meyer Wolfsheim said:


> No, in English you can't say Alex' cat (Alex cat or even if you meant Alexes=Alex')
> 
> If the word already ends in an s, you simply add -es in the pronounciation.
> 
> The Philipps
> 
> *The Philipps' Cat*.



Isn't that what I wrote? I wasn't talking about pronunciation but about writing.


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> Isn't that what I wrote? I wasn't talking about pronunciation but about writing.


It wasn't. _Alex_ doesn't end with "s". The spelling convention _-s's>-s' _does not apply to word ending with "x".


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## markusd

Making a long story short: There is only one spelling that is commonly used and orthographically correct.
Thomas' Katze, Franz' Katze, Alex' Katze.
It is pronounced like the name in nominative, so no added "s" or "es".
All other forms mentioned are old even to me (and I'm quite old-fashioned in these things).

Since the genetive is not evident from the pronounciation, you might hear the famous dative construction in *spoken *language ("dem Peter seine Katze" instead of "Peters Katze") which is, however, regarded incorrect. It is regionally frequently used but _never _written.


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## Alemanita

I do have a son called Alex and when I refer to things belonging to him, I do (I'm sorry, markusd, maybe I'm even more old fashioned than you are) pronounce: Alexes Hosen etc. The 'e' is more like a 'schwa'; anyway there _is_ a difference in my pronounciation between simply 'Alex kommt heute' and 'Alexes Freunde kommen heute'.


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## markusd

Thank you Alemanita. This is something where I still have to learn to hear better. It's a pity I can't hear you saying it.

Where I grew up in the "far south" of Austria we always tried to completely avoid genetives ending with -s or -x or at least make the genetive apparent (e.g. by writing "die Katze meines Freundes Alex" or simply "die Katze des Alex" which is, however a bit odd). In spoken language, in the south - and particularly in Austria - the genetive is rarely used at all. It comes back to the dative construction mentioned above or to something like "die Katze vom Alex" which is also not to be written.

(I hope Alex doesn't have a xylophone... I don't even dare to pronounce that)


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## Hutschi

markusd said:


> Since the genetive is not evident from the pronounciation, you might hear the famous dative construction in *spoken *language ("dem Peter seine Katze" instead of "Peters Katze") which is, however, regarded incorrect. It is regionally frequently used but _never _written.



It is never written in formal language. You can find it written in folk songs and in dialogues, of course, to indicate the regional language.

(If I say "regional language" it is not fully correct. It is used across wide areas even in the north. But there the parents usually forbid this usage "Spreche ordentlich" - "speak correctly!". In the south it is more accepted. Usually it is connected with "uneducated speech". This is why the most people avoid it there - even if it has some advantages. In dialects it is correct.)


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## Kumpel

Clarification and consolidation:
_Peters Katze_
_die Katze Jesu_ 
_Alex' Katze_ /-/ or /-əs/
_Alexens Katze_ (veraltet)*
_die Katze vo*n* Alex_
 _die Katze vo*m* Alex_ (südd. umg.)
_dem Alex seine Katze_ (umg.)
_die Katze des Alex_

Sorry if my 'question' was poorly-worded.

The second part: in German, you would call the family with the surname _Müller_ "die Müllers" - yes?
What do you call the family with the name _Phillips_ - die Phillips-?
I understand that _Phillips_ isn't a German name, so it's odd to apply German 'rules' to it, but there's gotta be some way I can write this.

Thank you, all, for much more of a response than I was expecting,
Lloyd

*Come to think of it, I have come across _-enz _while I was scouring the internet for an answer.


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## Frank78

Kumpel said:


> The second part: in German, you would call the family with the surname _Müller_ "*die* Müllers" - yes?



That's not a genitive but a nominative plural. That would be "(Das Haus) *der* Müllers/der Phillips"

A family with an article is not used in the whole German speaking world, see the other posts dealing with that topic.


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## Kumpel

Frank78 said:


> That's not a genitive but a nominative plural. That would be "(Das Haus) *der* Müllers"
> 
> A family with an article is not used in the whole German speaking world, see the other posts dealing with that topic.



That much, I know; I wasn't talking about the genitive there.
That's why I kept the thread title quite general - only _names ending with a sibilant_, rather than _names ending with a sibilant in the genitive_.

Lloyd


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## Hutschi

Frank78 said:


> That's not a genitive but a nominative plural. That would be "(Das Haus) *der* Müllers/der Phillips"
> 
> A family with an article is not used in the whole German speaking world, see the other posts dealing with that topic.



I do not understand this.

It is quite common in large areas to say, for example: "Nächste Woche kommen die Müllers zu Besuch." Here the "s" is a plural "s", related to the family name "Müller", however.

It is a North-South difference. 
May be it is not used in formal written language. But in informal language it is also used in written form.

I will build an example "on topic":

Die Clausens'/die Clausenses waren zu Besuch. (Assume the family name is "Clausens".)


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## berndf

Kumpel said:


> _die Katze vom Alex_ (umg.)


It is only the definite Article, the "m" (_von+dem=vom_) which is "umg."; southern colloquial to be precise. _Die Katze von Alex_ is acceptable in standard language.


Kumpel said:


> That much, I know; I wasn't talking about the genitive there.
> That's why I kept the thread title quite general - only _names ending with a sibilant_, rather than _names ending with a sibilant in the genitive._


It is still off-topic here because _Müller _does not end with a sibilant.


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## Kumpel

berndf said:


> It is only the definite Article, the "m" (_von+dem=vom_) which is "umg."; southern colloquial to be precise. _Die Katze von Alex_ is acceptable in standard language.


 
Ah, thank you.



berndf said:


> It is still off-topic here because _Müller _does not end with a sibilant.



_Müller _was just an example that I was using. My surname, however, _Phillips_, does end with a sibilant.
So, to use Hutschi's example, "Nächste Woche kommen die *Phillipss *zu Besuch." - It's that I'm stuck with.

Lloyd


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## Hutschi

I think, it is "(die) Phillips' here. There is no double s at the end of such words. It could be "Phillipsens", however.


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## markusd

Never use "ss" directly after a consonant. As stated, it could be "die Phillips' " or "die Phillipsens" (although this looks strange for me) .
Or you might again follow the route of avoiding such situations by writing:
"Nächste Woche kommt Familie Phillips zu Besuch."
Which is better style anyway, at least from my personal point of view.


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## Hutschi

It depends on what you want to reach. "Familie Philips" is correct and formal style.
The other style may sound warmer, more friendly, family intern. I would neither of them consider as wrong, and which one is better depends on context and situation.

"Nächste Woche kommt Familie Phillips zu Besuch."

In informal language in southern region you should or can use
"Nächste Woche kommt die Familie Phillips zu uns zu Besuch." ("Zu uns" is a redundancy and not necessary but sounds warmer.)

In colloquial and informal language in the southern regions you can use: "Nächste Woche kommen die Phillips'/ die Phillipsens zu Besuch." 
For me this sounds warm and familiarly, compared with "Familie Phillips". I would use the formal form, if I do not like this family, or in formal context. But this is also my personal point of view.


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## Kumpel

Hutschi said:


> There is no double s at the end of such  words.



Yes, I just wrote it so that my confusion became more apparent.

A question about _-ens_: it can be used for both genitive and  plural?

What I mean to say:
_Thomasens Katze kommt nächste Woche zu Besuch._ (gen.)
_Die Phillipsens kommen nächste Woche zu Besuch. _(pl.)

Alternatively:
_Thomas' Katze kommt nächste Woche zu Besuch._ (gen.)
_Die Phillips' kommen nächste Woche zu Besuch. _(pl.)

Is that all good, guys?
If yes, thanks for all your help.
Otherwise, I'm doomed. (Still, thanks for the help, but I just can't figure it out.)

Lloyd


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## Hutschi

To me it seems to be correct despite the fact that the "ens" form is almost obsolete now.

What I do not know exactly is whether the spelling reform allows to omit the apostrophe in this special case in the plural.


A special case is "Jesus".
Sometimes I read "die Kreuzigung Jesu" - this gives a hint to another declination system used in this special case. Here I do not know the rules.


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## Kumpel

Hutschi said:


> A special case is "Jesus".
> Sometimes I read "die Kreuzigung Jesu" - this gives a hint to another declination system used in this special case. Here I do not know the rules.



As I said in my original post, I was of the opinion that Latin declension is used for 'biblical' names.


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## berndf

Kumpel said:


> As I said in my original post, I was of the opinion that Latin declension is used for 'biblical' names.


I don't think there is a clear rule. Sometimes you use Latin declensions and sometimes not. You could say, e.g. _das Grab Petri_ or_ das Grab des Petrus_ but you would always say _das Grab des Paulus_; _*das Grab Pauli_ sounds terribly wrong.


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## Kumpel

berndf said:


> I don't think there is a clear rule. Sometimes you use Latin declensions and sometimes not. You could say, e.g. _das Grab Petri_ or_ das Grab des Petrus_ but you would always say _das Grab des Paulus_; _*das Grab Pauli_ sounds terribly wrong.



Yeah, fair enough, you'd know better than I.
I can only go by what I read on this ever-so wide web of worldliness.

Lloyd


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## markusd

"Das Grab Pauli" is also correct, but no longer used. The latin declension of Paulus has "Pauli" for the genetive. It is, however, still frequently used in "die Pauli-Briefe" which means "die Briefe des Paulus".
For Jesus it is different because the declension is on -u, not on -o as for Paulus. Hence, the genetive of Jesus is "Jesu".
There are thoughts, however, to do away with latin declensions even in church.
Regards,
Markus


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## Alemanita

markusd said:


> Thank you Alemanita. This is something where I still have to learn to hear better. It's a pity I can't hear you saying it.
> 
> Where I grew up in the "far south" of Austria we always tried to completely avoid genetives ending with -s or -x or at least make the genetive apparent (e.g. by writing "die Katze meines Freundes Alex" or simply "die Katze des Alex" which is, however a bit odd). In spoken language, in the south - and particularly in Austria - the genetive is rarely used at all. It comes back to the dative construction mentioned above or to something like "die Katze vom Alex" which is also not to be written.
> 
> (I hope Alex doesn't have a xylophone... I don't even dare to pronounce that)




I think in this case I would say Alexens Xylophon (yes, he used to have one), always with the second 'e' almost inaudible.


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## berndf

markusd said:


> It is, however, still frequently used in "die Pauli-Briefe"


I am not aware of uses which are younger than 200 years. But then I grew up as a protestant. 

I never read anything else than "die Paulus Briefe" in 20th century sources.


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## markusd

Well, I already know that I'm old-fashioned. I just wasn't aware that it is so severe... 200 years outdated 
Markus


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## Kumpel

On Facebook I came across this:
_*Jess* Fotokommentare_ (*Jess'* photo comments)
_*Ellens* Fotokommentare_ (*Ellen's* photo comments)

For the name ending with a sibilant (_Jess_), there was nothing to indicate possession - not an _-ens_, not an apostrophe. (I looked on another friends just in case it was a universal translation error, i.e. forgetting to put any kind of possessive marker whatsoever, but I guess not.)

What d'you make of it?

Lloyd


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## markusd

You don't regard facebook being a reference for German grammar, do you?

Markus


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## Kumpel

markusd said:


> You don't regard facebook being a reference for German grammar, do you?
> 
> Markus



Surely, though, a native German-speaker using Facebook would have noticed it as an error and pointed it out?
I 'trust' it in a way, because it's used by millions of Germans and, as such, is checked by millions of Germans, but of course, if you say it's still wrong, you're opinion holds more ground.

Lloyd


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## berndf

Kumpel said:


> ...
> there was nothing to indicate possession - not an _-ens_, not an apostrophe
> ...
> What d'you make of it?


The rules about this are complicated and they change all the time. I don't think there is much too be learned from this example except that people write as they see fit. The 2006 rules require an apostrophe here:

_Eigennamen, deren Grundform (Nominativform) auf einen s-Laut __(geschrieben: -s, -ss, -ß, -tz, -z, -x, -ce) endet, bekommen im Genitiv __den Apostroph, wenn sie nicht einen Artikel, ein Possessivpronomen __oder dergleichen bei sich haben:_

_Aristoteles’ Schriften, Carlos’ Schwester, Ines’ gute Ideen, Felix’_
_Vorschlag, Heinz’ Geburtstag, Alice’ neue Wohnung_
_E1: Aber ohne Apostroph: die Schriften des Aristoteles, die Schwester des Carlos, der Geburtstag unseres kleinen Heinz_
(Source, p.98)


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## Kumpel

This has all answered my question completely.
Thanks a lot, all.

Lloyd


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