# give it to me



## aurelien.demarest

Hi guys,

could you please tell me if this sentence has a correct translation of "give it to me" in MSA?

إذا كنت عَثَرتِ على المفاتيح فهل يمكنك أن تعطينيها؟

Thank you
Aurélien


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## elroy

أن تعطيني إياها


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## akhooha

I think you could also say:
أن تعطيها لي


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## Abu Talha

aurelien.demarest said:


> أن تعطينيها؟


I believe this is grammatically correct too and you'll find it in Classical Arabic.
See Wright vol. I, §187, p. 103.
In fact, I might have also seen it in the dialects.

However, MSA eschews two pronoun suffixes together, I think, preferring elroy's suggestion.

akhooha's suggestion is also quite common in MSA, but is considered prescriptively incorrect by some.


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## apricots

Abu Talha said:


> In fact, I might have also seen it in the dialects.



Two attached pronouns is done in Egyptian, I believe.


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## aurelien.demarest

Great ! Thanks all for helping me


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## elroy

akhooha said:


> I think you could also say:
> أن تعطيها لي


 I may be influenced by my dialect here, but أن تعطيها لي doesn't sound very good to me.


Abu Talha said:


> I believe [أن تعطينيها] is grammatically correct too and you'll find it in Classical Arabic.
> See Wright vol. I, §187, p. 103.
> In fact, I might have also seen it in the dialects.


 It may be correct in Classical Arabic, but in Modern Standard Arabic it sounds entirely wrong.  I've never come across it in any dialect, either. 





apricots said:


> Two attached pronouns is done in Egyptian, I believe.


 It is, but the direct object comes first: تديهالي and not *تدينيها.


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## Matat

Yes. Both are correct. أن تعطينيها and أن تعطيني إياها
When a verb can take on two objects, and both are pronouns, then you can choose either of these constructions, the second construction being more common.
As for أعطاها لي, looking through the different dictionaries ( معنى كلمة أعطى في معجم المعاني الجامع والمعجم الوسيط - معجم عربي عربي - صفحة 1 ), I only see this type of construction being used in the "Modern Dictionary of the Arabic Language" (معجم اللغة العربية المعاصر), a dictionary includes both classical and modern-type common constructions.

أعطى :
أعطى يُعطى ، أَعْطِ ، إعطاءً وعطاءً ، فهو مُعْطٍ ، والمفعول مُعْطًى :-
• أعطاه الشَّيءَ وهبه إيَّاه :- { إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ } .
• _*أعطاه مالاً / أعطى إليه مالاً / أعطى له مالاً*_ : منحه ، ناوله إيّاه :- أعطاه الله علمًا وحكمةً ، - أعطاه الدَّواءَ ، - أَعْطِ الْعَامِلَ أَجْرَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَجِفَّ عَرَقُهُ [ حديث ]، - { فَأَمَّا مَنْ أَعْطَى وَاتَّقَى . وَصَدَّقَ بِالْحُسْنَى . فَسَنُيَسِّرُهُ لِلْيُسْرَى } :-
• أعطِ القوسَ باريها [ مثل ]: دَع الأمرَ إلى صاحبه ، فوّضه إلى مَنْ يُحْسِنُه ، - أَعْطاه اللهُ بغير حساب : بدون تقتير ، - أَعْطاه دَرْسًا : علَّمه ، لقَّنه ، - أَعْطاه الضَّوء الأخضر : أذن له بالبدء في عمل ما ، منحه الموافقة والقبول ، - أعطى ثمارَه : أثمر ، - أَعْطاه عن ظَهْر يَدٍ : تفضُّلاً بلا بيع أو قرض أو مكافأة ، - أعطى له الكلمةَ : سمَح له أن يتكلَّم ، - أعطى له المجالَ : أتاحه له .
*المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر*

Other dictionaries, however, don't show this construction. I'm going to assume that this is more of a modern construction, which makes sense. I really don't see any reason for one to put a preposition based on the grammatical rules.


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## Abu Talha

elroy said:


> It may be correct in Classical Arabic, but in Modern Standard Arabic it sounds entirely wrong.


Hi elroy,
I think we are in agreement here.





> I've never come across it in any dialect, either.


I defer to your knowledge here. However, I entered the term اللي يعطينيها on a search engine and got quite a few hits, mostly on forums. (I entered اللي just to get more colloquial results.)


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## elroy

Matat said:


> Yes. Both are correct. أن تعطينيها and أن تعطيني إياها
> When a verb can take on two objects, and both are pronouns, then you can choose either of these constructions, the second construction being more common.


 This is misleading.  The second one isn't just "more common"; the first one is not used in Modern Standard Arabic as far as I know - or, if it is, it's extremely rare.  It sounds wrong. 


Abu Talha said:


> However, I entered the term اللي يعطينيها on a search engine and got quite a few hits, mostly on forums. (I entered اللي just to get more colloquial results.)


 It's certainly possible that it's used in some dialects and I just haven't heard it yet.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> This is misleading.  The second one isn't just "more common"; the first one is not used in Modern Standard Arabic as far as I know - or, if it is, it's extremely rare.  It sounds wrong.


I disagree; it's not misleading, rather, it's simply using cautious wording. I would actually argue the opposite. Using the absolutist statement that it "is not used in Modern Standard Arabic" is misleading, in my opinion. First, there is no fine line between CA and MSA to begin with. In addition to this, some writers, even to this day, use more of a classical style when writing their books, especially in religious literature.
Moreover, I don't think the statement that "it not used" is correct to begin with. For example, if I type in أعطيكموها into Google, I get quite a few hits. Many of them are of old classical books, but going through the search pages, there are actually many pages of forum users using it. In fact, in some of the forums, they are actually using it while speaking in dialect. So it seems that it might even exist as a construction in some dialects, or it may simply be that some are mixing between dialect and MSA. So yes, it may be rare, but I would hardly state that it so rare to the point where it is completely unheard of or not used in MSA.
I stand by my original statement that both تعطينيها and تعطيني إياها are correct, with the latter being more common.


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## elroy

It is misleading to say "you can choose either of these constructions, the second construction being more common," because it sounds as though they were more or less equal in terms of usage and effect, with the only difference being that one is more common.  Based on my intuitions and experiences as a native speaker, that's simply not true.  Before this thread, I had never come across the second construction, and it sounds entirely wrong in MSA, as I said before.  I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other native speakers.

I always strive to use cautious wording, and I did so here.  I said "the first one is not used in Modern Standard Arabic as far as I know" and I added "or, if it is, it's extremely rare."  This is not an absolutist statement.

There is definitely a difference in _usage_ between Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic.  The few writers, or individuals, who may choose to adopt a more classical style do not justify presenting the two forms as though they were on an equal footing in terms of usage.  Even in English, I could choose to wax poetic and embed Shakespearean forms into my writing; this does not mean that one can use "thou art" and "you are" interchangeably in English.

(Whether or not the form is used in any dialects is, of course, beside the point.)

Aurélien, I strongly advise you to refrain from using the double attached-pronoun construction.


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## cherine

elroy said:


> Before this thread, I had never come across the second construction, and it sounds entirely wrong in MSA, as I said before.  I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other native speakers.


I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here, Elroy. While I agree that تعطينيها is far less commonly used than تعطيني إياها or even تعطيها لي, I didn't feel it wrong at all. I can't remember where was the last time I saw this structure, but it didn't feel wrong at all when Aurélien used it in his first post, actually I was even impressed he knew this structure.

So, I'd say that Matat's wording is actually correct: both constructions are correct, and one of them is more common than the other.


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## elroy

Thanks for your input, Cherine!  Do you think your familiarity with the construction may have to do with the fact that you are much more well read than most native speakers of Arabic?  My guess would be that maybe you've come across it in literature and the like?


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## cherine

I'm not "much more read", but thanks for the kind words   I'm really not sure why it didn't strike me as strange or wrong. But yes, I'd say it's used in litterature and it's also in the Qur'an, though with another verb:
إِنَّ هَذَآ أَخِي لَهُ تِسْعٌ وَتِسْعُونَ نَعْجَةً وَلِي نَعْجَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ فَقَالَ أَكْفِلْنِيهَا وَعَزَّنِي فِي ٱلْخِطَابِ (Surat Saad 38, verse 23)
So, I'd expect that anyone who's come across this verse, Muslim or not, wouldn't feel this construction as incorrect or strange. Even if I still say that it is far less commonly used than the other ones.


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## aurelien.demarest

cherine said:


> it didn't feel wrong at all when Aurélien used it in his first post, actually I was even impressed he knew this structure.



thank you very much Cherine... may be this means I am becoming better in MSA.. 
Of course I have still have to learn from you guys but thank you anyway for this.

Aurélien


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## cherine

You're welcome, Aurélien. And I'm sure you'll get even better with more practice. You need to read a lot.


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