# dielectric creepage strength



## Wanderers

The complete sentence is:

A decrease in dielectric strength of the liquid can have an accentuated effect on the dielectric creepage strength of the solid insulating materials immersed in the liquid.


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## araceli

Hola:

¿De qué maquinaria se trata?

Dános algo de contexto.

Traslado este hilo al foro de Specialized Terminology.


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## Wanderers

Está en la norma ASTM D 1816 y se trata de pruebas eléctricas en aceites aislantes.


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## Wanderers

Quizás debí decir que busco un traducción para la expresión: *dielectric creepage strength* 

Gracias


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> Quizás debí decir que busco un traducción para la expresión: *dielectric creepage strength*
> 
> Gracias


 Mi diccionario de Ingeniería Eléctrica dice dielectric strength estaría "rigidez dieléctrico". Creepage es corrimiento....pero quizá no es el mismo tipo... porque mira:

*PWB Considerations* 
                            The primary consideration in PWB (Printed Wiring Board) design is establishing                             acceptable spacing or creepage to meet regulatory requirements and is usually limited to                             conductor spacing on a board surface. Problems arise though when components are                             placed over those conductors during assembly. Dielectric constant of and spacing                             between dielectric layers of solder mask, flux residue, air and conductors all come into                             play when we evaluate corona events during HiPot testing. Figure 1 shows a typical                             layout that causes problems during HiPot testing. This is a two dimensional                             representation of a more complex three-dimensional problem.
The rest of the explanation is here:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/technicalnotes/cor/

I have not dealt with this particular specialty and have not seen the word "creepage" used as "spacing of components" before, although I am familiar with the problem of arcing on circuit boards (first hand!  ) and dielectric breakdown.  
Perhaps if you could supply more of the paragraph you are quoting, I could be of more help. It is the use of creepage in "dielectric creepage strength" that is puzzling me.


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## Lagartija

Here is another try at "creepage".

*Creepage Path*: The path electricity must travel across the surface of a dielectric between two conductors. Lengthening the creepage path reduces the possibility of arc damage or tracking.

So I think that dielectric creepage strength is referring to the dielectric strength of your capacitive material taking into account the creepage path caused by the proximity of other components/materials.

Not an easy concept to translate!  The Wiley Dictionary of Electrical and Computer Engineering does not give a translation of "dielectric creepage strength", but after reading this, I believe that "corrimiento"  for "creepage" can refer to this phenomenon.  

Quizá rigidez de corrimiento dieléctrico....


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## Wanderers

The sentence quoted before is a factor that affect the dielectric breakdown voltage of insulating liquid.
The ASTM D 1816 is a standard method to determinate the dielectric breakdown voltage of insulating oils when you apply a voltage, in order to measure of the liquid's ability to withstand electric stress without failure.
Your explanation is very good an it fits very well.
I will try to find  better words to get the right meaning, because I think "rigidez de corrimiento dieléctrico" doesn't explain the whole meaning.
I really thank your help


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> The sentence quoted before is a factor that affect the dielectric breakdown voltage of insulating liquid.
> The ASTM D 1816 is a standard method to determinate the dielectric breakdown voltage of insulating oils when you apply a voltage, in order to measure of the liquid's ability to withstand electric stress without failure.
> Your explanation is very good an it fits very well.
> I will try to find better words to get the right meaning, because I think "rigidez de corrimiento dieléctrico" doesn't explain the whole meaning.
> I really thank your help



Are you translating the ASTM D 1816 standard? If not, then giving more of the text you are trying to translate would help.  Sometimes rewording it in English (and keeping the same meaning, of course) will allow an better translation to Spanish.  Without more of the context, what the author intended in your original sentence is not clear enough for rewording the sentence. Can you give the entire paragraph?

Here are the applicable entries for dielectric from the Wiley Dictionary of Electrical Engineering:
dielectric breakdown---- ruptura dieléctrica
dielectric breakdown voltage---- tensión de ruptura dieléctrica
dielectric capacity---- capacidad dieléctrica
dielectric coefficient---- coeficiente dieléctrica
dielectric current---- corriente dieléctrica
dielectric dissipation---- disipación dieléctrica
dielectric fatigue---- fatiga de dieléctrica
dielectric flux density---- densidad de flujo dieléctrico
dielectric isolation---- aislamiento dieléctrico
dielectric permittivity---- permitividad dieléctrica
dielectric rating---- clasificación de dieléctrico
dielectric reactance ---- reactancia dieléctrica
dielectric resistance ---- resistencia dieléctrica
dielectric rigidity ---- rigidez dieléctrica
dielectric strain ---- esfuerzo dieléctrico
dielectric strength ---- rigidez dieléctrica
dielectric stress ---- estrés dieléctrico
dielectric susceptability---- susceptibilidad dieléctrica
dielectric viscosity ----- viscosidad dieléctrica

I left out entries having to do with microwave dielectrics and those that were obvious compounds using terms already given.


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## Lagartija

As I understand it, the ASTM-D-1816 test is supposed to give an indication of the amount of contaminants (water and oxidation particles) in the oil of transformers (among other things, perhaps).  The minimum oil breakdown voltage is 20 kilovolts (kV) for transformers rated less than 288 kV and 25 kV for transformers 287.5 kV and above.  If the oil falls below these numbers, it should be reclaimed.

So if the text you are translating has to do with transformers and not coronal effects and dielectric breakdown on multilevel circuit boards, then what I have written above might help and the author may mean tensión de ruptura dieléctrica.  (As a function of impurities in the oil in which the material is immersed).

"A decrease in dielectric strength of the liquid can have an accentuated effect on the dielectric creepage strength of the solid insulating materials immersed in the liquid."

The author doesn't say in this sentence what is meant by "accentuated", but common sense tells me that if the dielectric strength is reduced, there is more chance of arcing and dielectric breakdown....and therefore the creepage path has been reduced.

Without further context, I might reword your sentence in English as: "A decrease in the dielectric strength of the liquid can have an accentuated effect on the creepage path of the solid insulating materials immersed in the liquid, leading to dielectric breakdown.


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## Wanderers

You are right almost in everything you say.
The ASTM standard describe the procedure to make . It doesn't say about the amount or type of contaminants, the only fact you can determinate following the procedures is the dialectric breakdown voltage of the sample that you get from any tank filled with electric oil.
Maybe as you already know when I bought the ASTM standard I signed an agreement that forbidden me to share it.
But if you tell me how I can attach a file in this conversation I will send you more text.
Agree with me?


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> You are right almost in everything you say.
> The ASTM standard describe the procedure to make . It doesn't say about the amount or type of contaminants, the only fact you can determinate following the procedures is the dialectric breakdown voltage of the sample that you get from any tank filled with electric oil.
> Maybe as you already know when I bought the ASTM standard I signed an agreement that forbidden me to share it.
> But if you tell me how I can attach a file in this conversation I will send you more text.
> Agree with me?


I sent you a private message which you can access by going to your "User Control Panel" or by using the link in the welcome box located in the upper right corner of the page. 

No, the ASTM standard doesn't say anything about the _type_ of contaminants.... it is only giving a method to test the dielectric breakdown voltage of the sample. Obviously if the sample has contaminants, it will not have the same value as the oil when it was new. Each oil will have well known dielectric properties and the test is just to see if it has changed.


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## Wanderers

As you ask me, more text. please don't forget I'm trying to translate *dielectric creepage strength.*

*Appendix*​*(Nonmandatory Information)*​* *​*X1. FACTORS THAT AFFECT THE DIELECTRIC BREAKDOWN VOLTAGE OF INSULATING LIQUIDS AT COMMERCIAL POWER FREQUENCIES*​* *​X1.1                 The dielectric breakdown voltage of a liquid at commercial power frequencies is also affected by:
 
X1.1.1               The degree of uniformity of the electric field,
X1.1.2               The area of the electrodes,
X1.1.3               Volume of the liquid under maximum stress,
X1.1.4               Insulation on the electrodes,
X1.1.5               Water content of the oil,
X1.1.6               Size and number of particles in the oil,
X1.1.7               Length of time for which liquid is under stress,
X1.1.8               The temperature of the liquid as it affects the relative saturation level of moisture in solution,
X1.1.9               Gassing tendencies of the liquid under the influence of electric stress,
X1.1.10 Concentration of dissolved gases if saturation levels are exceeded as a result of a sudden cooling or decrease in pressure, which may cause the formation of gas bubbles,
X1.1.11 Incompatibility with materials of construction, and
X1.1.12 Velocity of flow.
X1.1.13 A decrease in dielectric strength of the liquid can have an accentuated effect on the electric creepage strength of the solid insulating material immersed in the liquid.
X1.2                 Because of the separate, cumulative, and in some cases, interacting effects of the influences listed above, the average breakdown voltage of a liquid as determined by this test method cannot be used directly for design purposes. Procedures utilizing electrode shapes and configurations similar to those used in oil filled apparatus are used to determine design data and to study the influence of the variables. However, test results utilizing the rounded electrodes in this test method do give an indication of the relative dielectric strength of the oil in the insulation system.


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> As you ask me, more text. please don't forget I'm trying to translate *dielectric creepage strength.*
> 
> *Appendix*​ *(Nonmandatory Information)*​ *X1. FACTORS THAT AFFECT THE DIELECTRIC BREAKDOWN VOLTAGE OF INSULATING LIQUIDS AT COMMERCIAL POWER FREQUENCIES*​ X1.1                 The dielectric breakdown voltage of a liquid at commercial power frequencies is also affected by:
> 
> X1.1.1               The degree of uniformity of the electric field,
> X1.1.2               The area of the electrodes,
> X1.1.3               Volume of the liquid under maximum stress,
> X1.1.4               Insulation on the electrodes,
> X1.1.5               Water content of the oil,
> X1.1.6               Size and number of particles in the oil,
> X1.1.7               Length of time for which liquid is under stress,
> X1.1.8               The temperature of the liquid as it affects the relative saturation level of moisture in solution,
> X1.1.9               Gassing tendencies of the liquid under the influence of electric stress,
> X1.1.10 Concentration of dissolved gases if saturation levels are exceeded as a result of a sudden cooling or decrease in pressure, which may cause the formation of gas bubbles,
> X1.1.11 Incompatibility with materials of construction, and
> X1.1.12 Velocity of flow.
> X1.1.13 A decrease in dielectric strength of the liquid can have an accentuated effect on the electric creepage strength of the solid insulating material immersed in the liquid.
> X1.2 Because of the separate, cumulative, and in some cases, interacting effects of the influences listed above, the average breakdown voltage of a liquid as determined by this test method cannot be used directly for design purposes. Procedures utilizing electrode shapes and configurations similar to those used in oil filled apparatus are used to determine design data and to study the influence of the variables. However, test results utilizing the rounded electrodes in this test method do give an indication of the relative dielectric strength of the oil in the insulation system.


Pero....tu texto no dice "dieléctric" sino "electric". Si no es un "typo" entonces en mi opinion, refieren a cambios en el "creepage path" para el aislante debido a cambios en el liquido. Si el texto dice "electric" es sólo porque no quieren estar confundido con otros tipos de corrimientos (creepage).

The text as it stands above makes perfect sense to me. Changing "electric" to "dielectric" only makes it confusing to me. If it really says "dielectric creepage strength", then I am a bit mystified why they called it that.
There exists the terms "dielectric strength" and "creepage path", or "electrical creepage path". I have never seen the term "dielectric creepage strength" used before, although that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist!


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## Wanderers

Dear Lagartija,

I Have no words to tell you how much I'm sorry.
You are absolutey rigth.
So in order to complete my work, what you think is the right translation to _electric creepage strenght _considering the whole text?

Thanks a lot for all your time again.


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> Dear Lagartija,
> 
> I Have no words to tell you how much I'm sorry.
> You are absolutey rigth.
> So in order to complete my work, what you think is the right translation to _electric creepage strenght _considering the whole text?
> 
> Thanks a lot for all your time again.



No te preocupas. No hay problema.
Pues....no soy hispanohablante, pero yo sé se usa la palabra "rigidez" cuando se quiere decir "strength"  o dieléctrico o eléctrico,  y corrimientos para traducir "creepage".  El concepto es la resistancia contra ruptura dieléctrica.  No sé exactamente la mejor forma para decirlo en español.  Quizá rigidez para corrimiento eléctrico en lugar de rigidez de corrimiento eléctrico....no sé.  Tal vez los demás de l@s forer@s pueden ayudarnos?


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## Wanderers

What dou you thinf about:
rigidez eléctrica superficial


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> What dou you thinf about:
> rigidez eléctrica superficial



hmmm.... no sé pero creo que no.  Superficial indica una cosa "external" o "surface" y no una calidad del material dieléctrico. ¿Por qué crees superficial es lo mejor palabra?


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## Wanderers

Si intentas traducir la sentencia completa del artículo X1.1.13:
"Una disminución de la rigidez dieléctrica de el líquido puede tener un acentuado efecto sobre .............. del material sólido aislante inmerso en el líquido"
La disminución de la rigidez dieléctrica del aceite en este caso no tiene un efecto directo sobre la rigidez dieléctrica de los materiales sólidos, como por ejemplo el papel, pero si ayuda a que se pueda producir descargas en el entorno de los materiales sólidos y su posterior degradación.
Por eso la palabra corrimiento no me parece adecuada.
Me entiendes?


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## Lagartija

Wanderers said:
			
		

> Si intentas traducir la sentencia completa del artículo X1.1.13:
> "Una disminución de la rigidez dieléctrica de el líquido puede tener un acentuado efecto sobre .............. del material sólido aislante inmerso en el líquido"
> La disminución de la rigidez dieléctrica del aceite en este caso no tiene un efecto directo sobre la rigidez dieléctrica de los materiales sólidos, como por ejemplo el papel, pero si ayuda a que se pueda producir descargas en el entorno de los materiales sólidos y su posterior degradación.
> Por eso la palabra corrimiento no me parece adecuada.
> Me entiendes?



Sí, creo que entiendo lo que dices y que tienes razón...entonces tu sabes la palabra correcta en este caso. "Superficial" refiera al "environment" de los materials y no refiera al "surface" del aislante? (Quizá no entiendo bien... )


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