# If... then



## sakvaka

Which languages have a tendency of adding a redundant word like _so _or _then_ when a sentence starts with a conditional/temporal/... clause?

Some examples:

*Swedish*:
_Och när det gäller det här med upphovsrätt så är det lite si och så med den egna efterlevnaden.

_And when it comes to all this about copyrights, so it's a bit...

*Finnish*:
_Jos en olisi uskonut sinua, niin en olisi tässä. _

If I hadn't believed you so I wouldn't be here. (also: _..., en olisi tässä._)

*English*:
_If it's from Justin Bieber, then it's got to be good._ (also: _..., it's got to be good._)

? Thanks!


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## jazyk

In Portuguese: se... daí/então, but se is usually used on its own.


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## Maroseika

Russian: если..., то...
But _то _can be often omitted.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
«Αν...τότε»
an...'tote
but (as in Russian) «τότε» is often omitted


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## Mephistofeles

In Spanish:
"Si... pues"


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## Rallino

In Turkish:

Eğer ..... , o zaman .....
Eğer ..... , o hâlde .....
Eğer ..... , o vakit .....

All of them, including "eğer" (if) can be omitted.


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## Gavril

sakvaka said:


> *Finnish*:
> _Jos en olisi uskonut sinua, niin en olisi tässä. _
> 
> If I hadn't believed you so I wouldn't be here. (also: _..., en olisi tässä._)



Is _niin _necessary (or common) in sentences like these? I recall seeing sentences in which the conditional appears alone without _niin_.

(P.S. - 1000th post! It only took me four and a half years to get there.)


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## Orlin

Maroseika said:


> Russian: если..., то...
> But _то _can be often omitted.


Bulgarian: ако..., то... (то is optional).


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## Tjahzi

I'd just like to add that _så_ is more or less mandatory in spoken Swedish. 

Additionally, among youths, _så _is popularly used in any phrase that has just a slight causative touch. This use is generally frowned upon however.


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## ThomasK

Good Lord, I missed that. We can: "als ..., dan ...". 

Is it simply redundant? It emphasizes, is strictly strictly speaking superfluous, but is to be 'frowned upon'? I do not know of any rule around here. 

By the way we have a possibility of not mentioning the conjunction [starting with inversion even !] and then it is really useful, though not necessary.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Good Lord, I missed that. We can: "als ..., dan ...".
> 
> Is it simply redundant? It emphasizes, is strictly strictly speaking superfluous, but is to be 'frowned upon'? I do not know of any rule around here.
> 
> By the way we have a possibility of not mentioning the conjunction [starting with inversion even !] and then it is really useful, though not necessary.



It seems to be redundant in all languages. However, I've noticed that in nearly 900 % of the Swedish occurrences of "if", "then" is present, too. There seems to be a tendency towards using it.

I think Swedish has also that inversion:
_Springer du snabbare än jag, så kommer du att vinna tävlingen._
"Run you faster than I, then will you win the competition."
"If you run faster than I, then you will win the competition."


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## ThomasK

Oh, really? Interesting... 

_(Now I do think redundancy is - to some extent at least - typical of natural languages, as in French 'ne ... pas', structurally even. I can't give other examples, but... Isn't it part of an attempt to put some emphasis on something or to ensure one makes oneself clear? However, this should not become a separate thread! ;-) )  _


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> _(Now I do think redundancy is - to some extent at least - typical of natural languages, as in French 'ne ... pas', structurally even. I can't give other examples, but... Isn't it part of an attempt to put some emphasis on something or to ensure one makes oneself clear? However, this should not become a separate thread! ;-) )  _



Indeed, using "then" emphasizes that there is a causal relation.

By the way, many programming languages (Basic) use the same pattern:



> Source:
> 
> 80 PRINT S$
> 90 INPUT "Do you want more stars? ", A$
> 100 *IF* LEN(A$) = 0 *THEN* GOTO 90
> 110 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1)


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## ThomasK

Interesting note. But here it is almost unavoidable, isn't it?


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## legalize_skateboarding99

Mandarin Chinese does it too!

要是 (yaoshi=if)。。。就(jiu=then)
or 
如果（ruguo=if)。。。就（jiu=then)

German also has it, although, as in English, the "then" is omissible.

*Wenn *du heute nicht frei bist, *dann* können wir uns einfach morgen treffen.

*If*you aren't free today,* then* we can just meet tomorrow.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Interesting note. But here it is almost unavoidable, isn't it?



How can it be more unavoidable in a computer language than in human language? Well, yeah, you'd have a hard time teaching a computer to split long sentences in clauses.

But let's have a look at how Java (another programming language) expresses the same.



> if (score == 7) {
> System.out.println("You score a touchdown!");
> }


(_Cadenhead: Programming with Java in 24 hours (fourth edition, 2006), pg. 100_)

Java clearly traces out the section that is conditioned. No linking word. But precisely, that's not the same.

_If you see him anymore, all this will happen: (a long list of what will happen)_


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## ThomasK

I am not sure I could/ can follow in this, but are there more cases in which there is some kind of conditionality - or is this causality? Is conditionality causality? (Picking O _leads to_ an order) I suppose not. 

On the other hand/yet: 
_If you are ill, you will not be able to walk_

resembles very much
_Being ill will stop you from being able to walk.  _

Yes, the second one is not called conditionality of course. 

This may be foolish. Don't feel obliged to answer !


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## Selyd

sakvaka said:


> 80 PRINT S$
> 90 INPUT "Do you want more stars? ", A$
> 100 *IF* LEN(A$) = 0 *THEN* GOTO 90
> 110 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1)


80 PRINT S$ 
84 PRINT "Do you want more stars? "
90 INPUT A$ 
100 *IF* LEN(A$) = 0 *THEN* GOTO 90 
110 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1) 
In Ucrainian:
якщо ..., тоді ...
коли ..., то ...
But _тоді _and_ то _can be often omitted.


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## Kangy

Mephistofeles said:


> In Spanish:
> "Si... pues"



Another option is:

"Si..., entonces..."

(If..., then...)

We don't use "pues" in Argentina.


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## Mephistofeles

Kangy said:


> Another option is:
> 
> "Si..., entonces..."
> 
> (If..., then...)
> 
> We don't use "pues" in Argentina.


 
Yes, we can use "pues" or "entonces". I think "pues" is more familiar.


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## Mahaodeh

sakvaka said:


> It seems to be redundant in all languages.



Not in Arabic, you don't need it except in one case, when using laow to express something that didn't happen IF it had happened.

In ji`ta adkhalnaak
If you come, we'll let you in

Itha ji'ta adkhalnaak
When you come, we'll let you in

Laow ji'ta adkhalnaak
If you would come, we would let you in

Laow ji'ta *la* adkhalnaak
Had you come, then we would have let you in


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## OneStroke

In Chinese, all four combinations are possible:

No if, no then
Only if, no then
No if, only then
Both if and then

There are many words for 'if', and quite a few words for 'then', too. I'll just give an example of each of the above.

你不來，怎麼開課？(If you don't come, how can we start the lesson?) - No if, no then
*要是*你不來，我們怎麼開課？(Same as above) - Only if, no then
他知道你在，*就*不敢無禮了。(If he knows you're here, he won't dare be impolite.) - Only then
*倘若*你良心許可的話，你*就*去吧。(Both if and then) - Both


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## Словеса

Maroseika said:


> Russian: если..., то...
> But _то _can be often omitted.


As well as если, in fact (I won't say how often): увидишь птичку — не убивай её (you shall see a little bird — don't kill it).


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## Словеса

sakvaka said:


> It seems to be redundant in all languages.


Redundant compared to what? Human languages, unlike computer languages, don't have the goal to express external relations of meaning. Their goal is to act on a human soul/mind in a suitable manner; they are tools of action, not of description. Humans, unlike computers, don't work with once-set relations between notions; on the contrary, those relations are constantly updated. Words of the 'then' family have a function: they point out applicability of the conclusion clause namely to the condition expressed. Depending on the language, the details of their function are different, still.


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## Dymn

Mephistofeles said:


> In Spanish:
> "Si... pues"





Kangy said:


> Another option is:
> 
> "Si..., entonces..."
> 
> (If..., then...)


I don't know if it's different in Latin America or you just misunderstood the question, but this is quite rare in Spain and would easily come across as unnatural. I can safely say it's more common in Chinese than it is in Spanish, for instance.


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## nimak

*Macedonian*

Ако... тогаш... (Ako... togaš...) - _"If... then..."_

тогаш can be omitted


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## bibax

Czech:

*Jestliže* je úterý, [*pak*] musíme být v Belgii. _(*pak* can be omitted)_

*If* it's Tuesday, [*then*] this must be Belgium.


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