# "Visigothic" romance



## killerbee256

Greetings, I'm working on a modification for a game called crusader kings 2. The game represent 768 to 1452, my modification is adding code to the game so names of provinces and cities change depending on the culture of the ruler that controls them, one of these cultures is "Visigothic." For simplicity's sake, I am taking the commonalities of old Spanish and Old Portuguese, cross referencing Latin when they disagree, for example _Castilla_ vs _Castela_ I choose_ Castella_. I'm also interested in any primary sources on place names the Visigothic used. I found some information on Wikipedia but the place names were few and far between and in Late Latin many times. This thread is the first one split off from the Latium thread.

I'll start with the name _Beja, _this name is proving difficult. I know that it is from Latin _Pax Julia_ that was then filtered through vulgar Latin and then Arabic. So the question is what was form of word before the moorish conquest?


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## Mori.cze

For a start you can read the wikipedia article to find out the Visigothic name of Beja was _Paca._


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## killerbee256

Mori.cze said:


> For a start you can read the wikipedia article to find out the Visigothic name of Beja was _Paca._


Thank you I must of missed that.


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## Cossue

The acts of the Councils of Toledo (6th and 7th centuries) are signed by the several attendant bishops, who are usually referred by the name of their city or diocese: Coleccion de canones y de todos los concilios de la iglesia española. This book also contains a translation to Spanish, so it is easy to find/infere the old form of the name of a few tens of places; see for example pages 252-255, with the list of the bishops who attended the 3rd Council.

In any case, _Castella _is in fact the etymon of Spanish _Castilla _< _Castiella _and Galician and Portuguese _Castela _(pronounced with stressed open e).


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## killerbee256

I'm reviving this Thread as my new post is on the same subject. In the years since my post I found a few more attested Visigothic place names. For those I can't find I've started creating my own reconstitutions. I feel very sure about the some of these like _Ispalia, Ceseres_ and _Pages_. Others such as _Cárcuvio_, _Ambroça_ and _Bilbila_ I have my doubts about.


Spoiler: List



Carcuvium
Cárcuvio

_Hispalis_(Sevilla)
_Ispalia _(Arabic_ Išbīliya_)

_Portus Magnus_ (Almeria)
_Porto Manno_ (archaic Spanish maño)

_Gades_(Cadiz)
_Cadis_

_Salacia_(Alcacer do Sal)
_Salecia_

_Myrtilis_(Mértola)
_Mirtola_

_Cilpes_(Silves)
_Silpes_

_Bilbilis_(Calatayud)
_Bilbila_

Tritium(Nájera)
Tridio

_Pacensis_(Badajoz)
_Pages_

_Ambrosia_(plasencia)
_Ambroça_

_Turiaso_(Tarazona)
_Toraçona_

_Vallisoletum_(Valladolid)
_Vallisoledo_

_Norba Caesarensis_(Cáceres)
_Ceseres_


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## Cossue

_ce/ci > *tse, *tsi _and palatalization antecede sonorization/lenition, so:
_
Pacense_ should have become something like *_Pacés_, and _Caesarense _should have become something like *_Cesarés_; but _Cáceres (Arab ḥiṣn Qāṣras) _is stressed in the first rather than in the last syllable (OT: In Galicia we have a group of islands called _Sisargas _which probably derive from *insulas Caesaricas).

_Tritium _should have given something like *Trizo (maybe spelled _Tricio _back them). There's a pair of places in Galicia named _Trece,_ attested as _Trecia _in Medieval charters, which came probably from a feminine _Tritia_.

Also, I wonder if _Bílbilis _> *Bilble > ?


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## killerbee256

Cossue said:


> _Tritium _should have given something like *Trizo (maybe spelled _Tricio _back them). There's a pair of places in Galicia named _Trece,_ attested as _Trecia _in Medieval charters, which came probably from a feminine _Tritia_.


I don't fully understand the Visigothic or Old Spanish use of Cedilla, but could it have been _Triço_?


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## Cenzontle

"Tr*ī*tium" (long _i_) would give "Trizo" in Old Spanish, pronounced "tridzo".
That affricate would not have been voiceless, and thus not spelled with _ç_.
In "Cárcuvio", the accent mark looks out of place (aside from the fact that accent marks were not used in Old Spanish).  
Surely the stressed syllable is "cu".


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## Cossue

killerbee256 said:


> I don't fully understand the Visigothic or Old Spanish use of Cedilla


Ç derives from the Visigothic script* form of Z...  I'm no expert in palaeography, but  that means that in Visigothic script Z = Ç, and so in the transcription of medieval charters, etc, written in that script, there's no difference in between voiced and voiceless. It was not until the introduction of French scripts that the ç was used locally to represent voiceless /t͡s/ vs. <z> = /d͡z/ (voiced).

* Which is as much Visigothic as Gothic Art is Gothic.


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## Lusus Naturae

I'm curious about civitat- > ciudad, ciutat.
Is it plausible to have Carcuvium > Carcuyo?


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## Cenzontle

> I'm curious about civitat- > ciudad, ciutat.


Would it help you to know that Old Spanish had "cibdad"?


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## Cossue

Lusus Naturae said:


> Is it plausible to have Carcuvium > Carcuyo?


Hydatius(5th century) cites a place named Covianca near León. It is currently called Valencia de Don Juan, but it was named Quoianka/Coyanza during the Middle Ages. So Carcuvium > Carcuyo is, in my opinion, an option.


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## killerbee256

I'm having trouble with these last few
_Orgellia_ (Urgell)
Judging from what I know of the sounds changes involved it seems that during Visigothic times the name would be the same as the Latin?

_Molina_
This place name is also a word that is spelled the same in Spanish, Italian and Latin. So it would to be the spelled the same in Visigothic times?

_Ad-Aras_ (Almansa)
_Adaras_?

I've also uploaded a screen shot showing the work in the game.


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## Penyafort

killerbee256 said:


> I'm having trouble with these last few
> _Orgellia_ (Urgell)
> Judging from what I know of the sounds changes involved it seems that during Visigothic times the name would be the same as the Latin?



That's likely some kind of plural, as it was Urgellum in Latin, which is the diminutive suffix -ellu added to a pre-Roman Basco-Iberian root. The forms Orgello and Orjello are also attested in the High Middle Ages, and it already appears as Urgel or Urgell in the Catalan Chronicles.



killerbee256 said:


> I've also uploaded a screen shot showing the work in the game.



Interesting. But why Aragonna and not Aragonia? 

Or why Leione and not Castellone or Rosellone? Catalan -ó comes from -ONE. Otherways their modern names would be Castell and Rossell, as with Urgell.


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## killerbee256

Penyafort said:


> That's likely some kind of plural, as it was Urgellum in Latin, which is the diminutive suffix -ellu added to a pre-Roman Basco-Iberian root. The forms Orgello and Orjello are also attested in the High Middle Ages, and it already appears as Urgel or Urgell in the Catalan Chronicles.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. But why Aragonna and not Aragonia?
> 
> Or why Leione and not Castellone or Rosellone? Catalan -ó comes from -ONE. Otherways their modern names would be Castell and Rossell, as with Urgell.



_Leione_ come from this discussion on the forum. I'm not 100% sure about _Aragonna_, I know Latin _-nia_ becomes _-nna_ in Old Spanish and Old Portuguese then becomes _-ña_ _-nha _(_-nya_ in Catalan.) I found that in Latin the form is _Aragonia_, and assumed that an earlier form was _Aragonna._

I've been working my way eastward, so "visigothic" toponymy for Catalonia and Aragon is lacking.
I can't find it now, but I found Urgell was called _Orgellia_ on a Ptolemy map. Since I can't confirm this I'm changing the "Roman" and "Visigothic" names to your suggestions.
I've changed the "visogothic" for Castellon and Rosselló to _Castellone_ and _Rosellone_. My knowledge of Catalan is lacking I really need to get some literature on it


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## Penyafort

killerbee256 said:


> _Leione_ come from this discussion on the forum. I'm not 100% sure about _Aragonna_, I know Latin _-nia_ becomes _-nna_ in Old Spanish and Old Portuguese then becomes _-ña_ _-nha _(_-nya_ in Catalan.) I found that in Latin the form is _Aragonia_, and assumed that an earlier form was _Aragonna._



The problem here is that we're again dealing with, probably, a pre-Roman Basco-Iberian compound that was Latinized by the Romans. Since the modern version is Aragon, this clearly doesn't come from the form Aragonia, but from Aragonum. *Aragonna would have given either Aragona or Aragonya/Aragoña, which don't/didn't exist.



killerbee256 said:


> I've been working my way eastward, so "visigothic" toponymy for Catalonia and Aragon is lacking.
> I can't find it now, but I found Urgell was called _Orgellia_ on a Ptolemy map. Since I can't confirm this I'm changing the "Roman" and "Visigothic" names to your suggestions.
> I've changed the "visogothic" for Castellon and Rosselló to _Castellone_ and _Rosellone_. My knowledge of Catalan is lacking I really need to get some literature on it



Well, I guess that by 'Visigothic' you mean the late Latin used right before the Muslim invasion of the 8th century. The problem here is that Catalan is more Frankish than Visigothic, as its actual gestation was as part of the southern border of the Frankish Empire. Luckily, Late Latin was still quite similar all over the West before that 8th century.


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## killerbee256

Penyafort said:


> Well, I guess that by 'Visigothic' you mean the late Latin used right before the Muslim invasion of the 8th century. The problem here is that Catalan is more Frankish than Visigothic, as its actual gestation was as part of the southern border of the Frankish Empire. Luckily, Late Latin was still quite similar all over the West before that 8th century.


 I take your point, "Visigothic" is how the game how refers the culture and language of Iberia in 769 and 867. It is scripted to break up around 900 into Castilian, Portuguese, Catalan, Occitan and "Andalusian" Arabic (for areas under Arab rule.)

I agree with you, for my "Visigothic" constructions Late Vulgar Latin with north west Iberian touches should be my target.



Penyafort said:


> Since the modern version is Aragon, this clearly doesn't come from the form Aragonia, but from Aragonum. *Aragonna would have given either Aragona or Aragonya/Aragoña, which don't/didn't exist.



That explains some thing that's been mystifying me for some time. One of the game's "counties" is _Alt*o *Aragon_. I've been confused why alto is masculine if Aragon is _Aragonia_ in Latin. It also explains why Aragon is _Aragão _in Portuguese.


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## Lusus Naturae

Cenzontle said:


> Old Spanish had "cibdad"


I saw Septa > Ceuta.
How common is b/p>u?


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## Dymn

Quite common before _d/t_: 
_
debita > deuda
rapidus > raudo
capitalis > caudal
captivare > cautivar_
etc.


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