# Age and work



## astronauta

Can anyone explain why an unemployed person living in an anglophone country who is over, let's say 40 has a better chance to find a job than it's counterpart in a country such as Spain or Mexico?

I have known people, for example, in the mining sector, that had to be pulled out of retirement because their expertise is so valuable meanwhile, job ads in the above countries always read something along the lines of "persons of 40 years or older need not to apply"....why is this phenomenon?


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *astronauta vegetariana*
> job ads in the above countries always read something along the lines of "persons of 40 years or older need not to apply"....why is this phenomenon


 
I'm not certain about other "anglophone" countries, but in the United States, posting an age requirement such as that in an advertisement would be close to illegal, and would certainly have many Age Discrimination lawyers circling in the waters. The only time you can post a specific age in an ad is if the job requires a legal age restriction.

For example, in many states, people under a certain age cannot serve alcohol. As such, anyone wishing to be a waitperson in a restaurant must meet a minimum age requirement in order to serve alcohol to customers. 

Obviously, certain jobs are not necessarily appropriate for older people, but they still have the right to apply for those jobs. Many companies will more likely hire younger people over older people (it depends on the job and situation, of course), they certainly would not advertise such. 

Older people can and do continue to make a very valuable contribution to our society.


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## astronauta

You are right, but did you know that in most Europe, South America and Mexico all resumes/job applications must be accompanied by a photo and clearly estate marital staus, age, # of children, etc..?

But why is it that experience isn't a valuable enough contribution to an organisation as it is youth in Mexico and Spain?

I would, hands-down, pick a seasoned worker before a whipper-snapper.

Are there any other countries where people face age discrimination in the job-seeking field?


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## GenJen54

> You are right, but did you know that in most Europe, South America and Mexico all resumes/job applications must be accompanied by a photo and clearly estate marital staus, age, # of children, etc..?


Wow! That's really interesting. Those are all illegal in the US. Of course, most people are able to figure out a person's age by carefully evalutating their CV or resume. Personal information, such as marital status and children, is rarely if ever included on resumes, and interviewers are not allowed to ask those questions because they are not considered to be pertinent hiring considerations.

Ironically, you can be asked if you have "reliable transportation." 

I'm curious as to why there is a sense of "age-phobia" in other cultures, if that is an appropriate word for it.


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## clipper

Unfortunately experienced workers cost more than " whipper snappers" and in the world we live in profits often come before quality of service. Obviously that is affected by culture which can vary from country to country.

I know of a translator (English Spanish) who lost out on a job to a school leaver who only spoke spanish (the job advert asked for qualified experienced translator but the employer eventually opted for a youngster with no english skills to speak of but paid for an english course for the new employee. The total cost of salary plus language course being lower than the salary of an experienced translator).

I would like to say that this would not happen in other countries but obviously I can´t. However I do believe that it is more probable in some recruitment markets where supply of jobs is far outweighed by demand and employers ethics are open to influence by these factors.

I would also like a native to confirm this, but I believe that putting sex/age requirements in job adverts is illegal in Spain but it doesn´t mean that it doesn´t happen (a rule can only be enforced if there are sufficient resources and a suitable legal system to police it, besides, some countries just don´t have the claims culture of others so "age/sex discrimination lawyers aren´t on every street corner. Would you bother taking up your case if you thought it would cost you thousands of Euros/dollars and twenty years to even get your case heard ?).


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## astronauta

Gen, it is also illegal in Canada.

But like yourself, I'm dead curious about other countries and why would any company prefer to hire a kid rather than a person who has accumulated years of experience.

On the side note, oficially, in Mexico, kids younger than 18 cannot work.


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## lauranazario

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> But like yourself, I'm dead curious about other countries and why would any company prefer to hire a kid rather than a person who has accumulated years of experience.


I believe it's a matter of economics, Astronauta... you see, it is immensely cheaper to hire a younger person (with less experience) for a lower salary. People with years of experience often find themselves "unhirable" because their experience is a tangible asset that "costs money"... and sadly, most companies are very stingy when it comes to worker salaries (as opposed to "executive" salaries).

Sure, companies DO need people with experience... but most decide it will be cheaper to "train" an inexperienced worker --while he or she is earning less money than an experienced one would get from the start.

Sad, but true...

Saludos,
LN


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## Rach404

In this country teenagers are allowed to work at a stupid age which is 15 and 1/4 (why the quarter? it makes no sense) for silly jobs like working at the tills in shops etc...except not many places like to hire younger people because they feel they might not be as experianced.....even if it is cheaper to hire younger people now, it won't be cheaper to sort out any mistakes they might have made which may have been avoided with using someone of experiance!


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## astronauta

Laura, I honestly don't think experience necessarily costs more that lack of it.

For example, If a kid does not how to do certain things, he has to be trained, then if he screws something because of bad decision making; that's a bit more, then because he goes out to drink and has no reponsiblities and does a passable but not satisfactory job, abseteeism, tardiness, etc... those things add up. It has been proven that the hardest workers are mature people with children (with their exceptions).

So, how about Mexican and Spaniards over fourty who apply for a job where the salary has been advertised; they can't even dream of asking for more than what's advertised, THEY JUST WANT THE JOB and still they get discriminated.

In the above case, can anyone say why?
There is a movie that comes to mind that exemplifies my question, it is called "Mondays in the Sun" (Los Lunes al Sol) has anyone seen it?


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## lauranazario

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> Laura, I honestly don't think experience necessarily costs more that lack of it.


Let me give you a real-life scenario...

María is a seasoned advertising professional, a top-notch copywriter with years of experience creating advertising campaigns. The scope of her advertising experience includes the automotive, healthcare, tourism, banking, and telecommunications fields. She's been around, she knows the trends. It would cost an ad agency "X" amount of money to hire a person like María today... to lure her through an ad and make her join this other agency.

For "X" amount, María could bring in a wealth of experience and know-how to the position in the new ad agency.... but the reality is that the agency --for purely economic reasons-- will end up hiring José, who is just fresh out of the university or has been working for 1 or 2 years at the most, and only has experience in one field (let's say telecommunications). José will get paid X-5 (nowhere as much as María would cost) and the ad agency will train him on-the-go.

Result? "Experience" gets sacrificed to cost-efficiency (or plain corporate stinginess). 

Does this help you understand my point???

Saludos,
LN


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## astronauta

I understand your point Laura; I just don't agree with it and explained why.

I am refereing to those who just want the job, without the purpose of getting more than what's advertised, and face age discrimination.

Does that happen in Puerto Rico?

Saludos,

AV


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## fenixpollo

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> You are right, but did you know that in most Europe, South America and Mexico all resumes/job applications must be accompanied by a photo and clearly estate marital staus, age, # of children, etc..?


To add to AV's comment, age discrimination is just one of the kinds of discrimination faced by job seekers in Mexico (and I imagine in other parts of Latin America).  

"Help Wanted" advertisements often specify not only desired age range, but desired gender, marital status and other personal information that is considered private (and off limits) in the US, Canada, UK and other places.

It's just the way things work... until laws are passed at the federal level that prohibit discrimination....


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## Phryne

Laura,

 I think what Astronauta is trying to say is that in many places in the world, ( Latin America, for instance), companies still hire José, even though María has lost all hopes trying to get a good paying job, so she's willing to work for X-5 anyway. I've seen this countless times. I have many friends who were not yet graduated as industrial engineers and were working for the local gas company, or the equivalent, for X-5 amount of money, while many Marias who had decades of experience were also willing to work for that money. Those Marías were working for similar money at the local department store.

I don't know why this happens. I can't understand why a younger (supposedly "better looking"?) person is more desirable than an older one with much more experience in the field. 





			
				astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> There is a movie that comes to mind that exemplifies my question, it is called "Mondays in the Sun" (Los Lunes al Sol) has anyone seen it?


Excellent film! It reminded me so much to the current situation in my country. 

 Saludos


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## Mariaguadalupe

Here is my two cents worth.

I guess it has something to do with the fact largest sector of the population is comprised by those between 15-30 years of age.  In Mexico it represents, I don't have the facts with me at the moment, but approximately 40% of the working population.  And as many of you have said, it costs less to hire someone who is starting out rather than someone who has experience and demands more salary.  It is a sorry fact in Mexico that many bank managers find themselves without a job as soon as the hit the 40 year mark.  

Those of us who are over 40 are limited to low paying jobs or have to find other sources of income.  

One added source of discrimination in México is, if you are a woman, its worse.  I'm not saying that women in México cannot have satisfying careers, we do.  We also have a high percentage of college graduates, however, many of us have searched and found other ways to remain employed and active in the business world.


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## lauranazario

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> I understand your point Laura; I just don't agree with it and explained why.


Ah, no problem there, then... disagreeing is not always a bad thing. 


> I am refereing to those who just want the job, without the purpose of getting more than what's advertised, and face age discrimination.
> Does that happen in Puerto Rico?


Since we're part of the US, age discrimination is also illegal in Puerto Rico.
But let's face it... there are so many OTHER ways in which you can discriminate against a person.

I think I read somewhere that certain studies showed that attractive people (males and females) get hired more often than their non-attractive counterparts --even if they're identically qualified for the job. The same goes for "obese" people. Silent discrimination.

Another trend that is visible in certain parts of the US where the Puerto Rican population is growing at an impressive rate... is the fact that Puerto Rican professionals often get told that they're "overqualified" for the job whose wanted-ad they saw on the paper and they happen to be interviewing for. That's another form of silent discrimination. I'm told (by the turned-down prospects themselves) that this is happening a lot in Florida.

Other examples of silent discrimination can be seen in other industries, where they somehow attach certain physical requirements to a given job (when was the last time you saw a "short" or "pettite" flight attendant on a US airline???)

We could find examples in almost every business sector.

Saludos,
LN


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## VenusEnvy

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> Can anyone explain why an unemployed person living in an anglophone country who is over, let's say 40 has a better chance to find a job than it's counterpart in a country such as Spain or Mexico?


Is this really true?

I understand the comments and points that have been made. Experienced workers are valuable, but are costly.

But, I see things from a different standpoint. I am young, just recently graduated, and am having a hard time finding a job (apart from resorting back to waitressing). Luckily, I did some volunteer/internship work when I was a young thing. But, even that just squeeks me by. Most employers are looking for some experience, someone who knows what they're doing, and I simply don't have that.

I'm sure that this depends on the field. But, the job market is tough in the US for us youngin's, too. Nowadays, EVERYONE has a college education. So, one needs either a Master's or Ph.D., tons of experience, or to know the right person.  



			
				astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> I have known people, for example, in the mining sector, that had to be pulled out of retirement because their expertise is so valuable meanwhile, job ads in the above countries always read something along the lines of "persons of 40 years or older need not to apply"....why is this phenomenon?


I'm sorry, but I have to concur with the others on this one. Where did you see this? This sort of advertising is illegal here.


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## Phryne

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I have to concur with the others on this one. Where did you see this? This sort of advertising is illegal here.


 I've seen it a million times (outside the US). As a matter of fact, I once applied for a job that wanted "females between 25 to 35 years old", even though I was 21 years old. 

saludos


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## ILT

My two cents:

In addition to paying less to a person just out of college than the salary that would have to be paid to an older person with much more experience, many bosses prefer somebody younger because they feel they can "mold" them to their requirements.

Let me explain:

A young person just came out of college with a crisp title in telecommunications networks.  There's an engineer over 45 with 20 years of experience in the field.

The younger person has fresher and up-to-date knowledge - The older person may have been studying to gather udpated knowledge, maybe just learnt on the go, maybe never ever went back to school.

The younger person is just starting a professional career, and is eager to leave a mark - The older person may feel like after so many years he/she should be ranked higher in the organizational charts, and thus feel resented that has to compete with such young persons; or maybe this older person is just happy at such level.

The younger person is learning the ways of the company, and his/her boss will very likely shape his/her professional self - The older person has already shaped his/her professional self, and is likely to do things a certain way because that's the way he/she has done them for so many years and has not encountered the need/desire the change, so if a boss requests something to be done in a certain way, it may happen that those requests are ignored.

The younger person usually stays overtime "because it is the price to be paid for learning" - The older person usually will not stay overtime unless it is justified and paid in cash.

I understand what has been mentioned about cost and profit, and totally agree with Laura.  About the newbie being more expensive in the end due to errors and absences, we have to take into account that an older person is more likely to result more expensive due to medical expenses and sick days.

Also, I don't know the policy regarding job turnover, but my guess is that maybe the fact that an older person will retire sooner has some influence too.


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## jmx

I love translating said:
			
		

> The younger person has fresher and up-to-date knowledge - The older person may have been studying to gather udpated knowledge, maybe just learnt on the go, maybe never ever went back to school.
> 
> The younger person is just starting a professional career, and is eager to leave a mark - The older person may feel like after so many years he/she should be ranked higher in the organizational charts, and thus feel resented that has to compete with such young persons; or maybe this older person is just happy at such level.
> 
> The younger person is learning the ways of the company, and his/her boss will very likely shape his/her professional self - The older person has already shaped his/her professional self, and is likely to do things a certain way because that's the way he/she has done them for so many years and has not encountered the need/desire the change, so if a boss requests something to be done in a certain way, it may happen that those requests are ignored.
> 
> The younger person usually stays overtime "because it is the price to be paid for learning" - The older person usually will not stay overtime unless it is justified and paid in cash.


I couldn't explain it better than that.


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## Noel Acevedo

Astronauta Vegetarian,

I think Lauranazario hit on the mark in her post.  In addition to what she mentions, there are other silent criteria in picking that young whipper snapper.  Probably single, i.e health care benefits are cheaper, as there is no spouse to include in a health plan (if there is in fact one); no children, idem, plus no worry about having the employee miss a day if they get sick, or require a school visit.  Even if you have to train him or her, it's still cheaper than the cost of an older more experienced candidate, whom will demand a higher pay, and have perceived negative baggage.  In addition, she is also on the mark on racial, ethnic discrimination.  It's against the law, but "está vivito y coleando".

Noel


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## astronauta

ILT, your post makes much sense now. For anyone interested there are two articles at today's El Universal (Mexican) paper that support somewhat what you estate: Descriminan las empresas a mayores de 35 Sufren mayores de 35 rechazo para emplearse


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## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Nowadays, EVERYONE has a college education. So, one needs either a Master's or Ph.D., tons of experience, or to know the right person.


 
Unfortunately, not only is a four-year degree essential (unless one is absolutely brilliant and can most likely make it on his own), but quite frankly, I don't think a bachelor's degree means the person is particularly educated. Although there can be a huge discrepancy among colleges and universities, many have really lowered their standards. Personally, I think of someone with a bachelor's degree as educated at a minimal level and someone with a Ph.D. as fairly well-educated. Of course, education does not necessarily corollate with intelligence or talent at all!

I once read somewhere that the general education of someone with a master's degree in the United States had the equivalent education of someone with just a high school diploma in Japan. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's very easy to believe.


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## Silva

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> Gen, it is also illegal in Canada.
> 
> But like yourself, I'm dead curious about other countries and why would any company prefer to hire a kid rather than a person who has accumulated years of experience.
> 
> On the side note, oficially, in Mexico, kids younger than 18 cannot work.


 
I think it is the world economic system that leads to this. 
In Italy a young working woman must still be very careful about her pregnancies, in particular in small concerns.  Just yesterday I read in the newspaper that older "appliants" are more favourite than young people.  I think it depends on the amount of contributions/tax rates that companies have to pay to the State for their workers.  In Italy there exists a perverse economic policy in this sense.
There are though strict rules about the ads: you cannot specify you prefer a man rather a woman, but you can choose the age, for example "max 40 years".


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