# Das Rollende R



## Sisyphus the Repetitive

I was hoping someone might be able to tell me how common rollings r's are in German. I've done some research and gotten very mixed answers to this. I wanted to learn to roll my r's because I like the way they sound, but would I realistically ever use it in conversation?


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## perpend

It's regional to my knowledge.

You might use it ... regionally.

I would consider it a lesser priority in learning German (from a non-native standpoint).

Big Welcome, StR, has it not yet been said.


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## Demiurg

perpend said:


> It's regional to my knowledge.



It's common in some rural parts of the country.  So if you want to sound like the German equivalent of a hillbilly just go on.


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## bearded

Demiurg said:


> in some rural parts


But in Bavaria - and also in Baden-W. - I often heard it also in 'non-rural parts', i.e. towns.... Not to talk about Austria or Switzerland!


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## Kajjo

In my personal experience the rolling-R apperars mainly *in Bavaria* as part of transferring the dialectal Bavarian pronunciation into modern standard German. The rolling-R is counted as correct variant, however, it sounds pretty much dialectal to all other standard speakers.

Besides that, in former times the rolling-R was considered the appropriate pronunciation on theaters and singing.

@Demiurg: I have never observed the rolling-R in Northern rural areas. So I suppose it is a regional Southern issue.


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## Demiurg

bearded man said:


> But in Bavaria - and also in Baden-W. - I often heard it also in 'non-rural parts', i.e. towns.... Not to talk about Austria or Switzerland!





Kajjo said:


> I have never observed the rolling-R in Northern rural areas. So I suppose it is a regional Southern issue.



Wikipedia schreibt dazu:



> Ursprünglich wurde der R-Laut als „gerollter“ Zungenspitzlaut [⁠r⁠] (stimmhafter alveolarer Vibrant) gesprochen. In Bayern, Franken, in ländlichen Regionen Deutschlands (Ostfriesland, Siegerland, Mittelhessen) und Österreichs sowie großmehrheitlich in der Deutschschweiz (außer in deren Nordosten sowie Basel) überwiegt diese Aussprache immer noch ...
> 
> Noch zu Beginn des 20. Jahrhunderts herrschte das alveolare R in den meisten Teilen Deutschlands vor. Heute überwiegt es vielerorts in der Sprache der ältesten Generation ländlicher Sprecher, während jüngere Sprecher das uvulare R verwenden.



https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R

Letzteres ist auch mein Eindruck. Das rollende R hört man häufig bei (älteren) Sprechern vom Land, wo noch stärker Dialekt gesprochen wird.  Junge Leute und Städter sprechen heute seltener Dialekt und orientieren sich viel stärker an der Standard-Aussprache.


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## Sisyphus the Repetitive

Thanks for the welcome perpend! Really glad I found it. So just to be clear, the rolling r has no place in standard german except for maybe theater or singing? If that's the case, were a standard german speaker to use the rolling r in conversation, would it have a theatrical connotation? Or a rural german hillbilly one?


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## Kajjo

Yes, the is almost no place for the rolling-r in standard German as far as I can see. The one exception is intended over-pronouncing of words to be understood over bad phone connections or to communicate new words unknown to the listener.

My predominant idea when hearing a rolling-r is "Bavarian" without any judgement. I agree with Demiurg's explanation cocnerning old and rural speakers, even if I do not notice this anymore in urban regions of Northern Germany like Hamburg or Hannover. I do not associate "hillbilly" as first thought.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> @Demiurg: I have never observed the rolling-R in Northern rural areas


That surprises me. The Low German /r/ is always rolled and rural speakers with Low German background use the rolled r also in high German.


Kajjo said:


> My predominant idea when hearing a rolling-r is "Bavarian"


That is only one of many dialect group where the rolled r is predominant. The probably most conspicuous variant of the trilled r is the East-Franconian (Nuremberg, Würzburg, Bamberg) one. There are also some Rhine-Franconian dialects where the rolled r is the rule.

Within the Bavarian group, some urban Austrian dialects have switched to the uvular r.

Within the Alemannic group, one of the most prominent features of the High end Higest Alemannic (spoken in Switzerland, Liechtenstein and the Austrian state of Vorarlberg) group is the non-vocalization of final rs, i.e. words like _oder _are pronounced with a rolled r at the end.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Yes, the is almost no place for the rolling-r in standard German as far as I can see.


Well, Siebs still prescribed a trilled r, either alveolar or uvular, for the standard. He admitted the non-trilled uvular r only for "gemäßigte Hochlautung" (roughly something in between standard and colloquial) and stage pronunciation only accepts the alveolar rolled r. All this is out of date of course but I find it problematic to take the opposite view and declare pronunciation in line with Sieb's rules as non-standard.


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## berndf

Sisyphus the Repetitive said:


> I've done some research and gotten very mixed answers to this.


That is not surprising. The map of different rs in German looks like a quilt.


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## Resa Reader

I am quite pleased with my rolling "R". At least it enables me to speak a decent Italian ... )


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## bearded

Resa Reader said:


> I am quite pleased with my rolling "R". At least it enables me to speak a decent Italian


Whereas I paradoxically make an effort in order to pronounce the uvular standard R, whenever I speak German, to the purpose of not sounding  too Italian or, in the best case, 'Bavarian'.


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## perpend

It is somewhat paradoxical.

What I learned in Munich is that "München ist die noerdlichste Stadt Italiens" (oder so in etwa).

Maybe you have to _*roll*_ with it, sometimes.


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## bearded

perpend said:


> sometimes


When I'm in Bavaria, certainly...
And which one of the two Rs is easier for an American to utter?


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## perpend

Exactly, and when you are in Berlin, fake it (don't use the "rolling R").


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## bearded

I'll follow your advice, from now on, depending on the regions...
Please reply to the question in my #15 above.


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## perpend

Americans in general can't use the "rolling 'R'", except for our large Latino population, who can do so.

There are 3 "R's" for me in German, BTW.

The American "R" differs from all of them.


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## Darth Nihilus

I've got a question on this topic; this time, surprisingly, to non-natives.

In German, I use the uvular R; in fact, I tend to make it sound as guttural as possible, in order to fit my rough personality .

But...whenever I've got a glottal fricative  in the preceding syllable, I turn my next R into a rolling one! Like in _*h*ö*r*en, *h*ei*r*aten, *h*u*r*e_. In order to avoid this I've got to speak real slow and pay a lot of attention. Such a thing doesn't happen in an actual conversation, so my Rs in these cases become rolled. Odd, isn't it?

Does it also happen to you?


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## bearded

It does not happen to me.  Once I have adopted the uvular R, I instinctively apply it in my overall speech, without sliding back to 'rolling'.


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## berndf

Darth Nihilus said:


> Does it also happen to you?


That must be related to the allophonic distribution in your language, initial /r/=, other single /r/=[r].


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## perpend

Kannst du das "Rollende 'R'", bernd. Had to ask. 

Ich habe es nicht meistern koennen, während meiner Zeit in Bayern, als amerikanischer Muttersprachler.

Ich habe mir die Mühe aufgegeben, und habe ich mich für die zwei anderen Varianten entschieden.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> There are 3 "R's" for me in German


What would be the third (I agree, I want to know how you perceive them and if we think of the same ones).


perpend said:


> The American "R" differs from all of them.


Right. There is only one, little known dialect that has the approximant apical r.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Kannst du das "Rollende 'R'", bernd.


The short trilled apical r is no problem for me, the long one (like Italian _a*rr*ivare_) is.

I also have problems in certain combinations. E.g. [tr] or [dr] are very difficult for me although people say this should be the easiest context. Not for me.[/tr]


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## perpend

berndf said:


> What would be the third (I agree, I want to know how you perceive them and if we think of the same ones).



The way I learned it phonetically (which may be wrong)
1) toward the back of the throat
2) toward the tip of the teeth
3) rolling along the alveolar ridge

EDIT: Cross-posted


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## berndf

perpend said:


> The way I learned it phonetically (which may be wrong)
> 1) toward the back of the throat
> 2) toward the tip of the teeth
> 3) rolling along the alveolar ridge
> 
> EDIT: Cross-posted


That's not what I had in mind. There are two different back rs. That's also what Siebs described, a trilled front and a trilled back r and as less standard one the non-trilled back r. Today it is the other way round: the non-trilled back r is the "normal" one.


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## perpend

I feared we wouldn't be on the same page, but I wanted to nevertheless let you know what I meant with the "three 'R's". 

It seems there is a multitude of "R"'s for German native speakers, beyond the ones I learned.


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## bearded

I sometimes have a little difficulty in pronouncing the sound sequence ch-r, like in _wenn es no*ch r*egnet. _Here I would be tempted to use a 'rolling R' - but I can usually resist.


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## berndf

This sequence is often pronounced as a continuous long consonants, like in "i*m M*eer" or "ka*nn n*icht". But it starts unvoiced and voicing sets in half way, often with a very brief glottal closure to facilitate the shift from voiceless to voiced. This also happens in other cases where an unvoiced consonant is followed my its voiced counterpart as in "da*s S*ilber".


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## bearded

berndf said:


> This also happens in other cases where an unvoiced consonant is followed my its voiced counterpart as in "da*s S*ilber".


A very good example. Anyhow, doing this with guttural sounds is a bit (just a bit) harder.  The 'very brief glottal closure' is indeed convenient.


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## perpend

How many "R"'s are in your repertoire, bearded, as a non-native. I'm just interested in the number of "R" variations that you perceive as conceivable/spoken, in German? Just curious, due to your unique perspective! (Latin-adjacent.)


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## Hutschi

Hi, we spoke a lot about the different "r" realizations, and until now we forgot the "r" at the end of words. 
At this place an "r" is mostly reduced to a "schwa"-sound.
Only in some dialects and in a few situations it is rolled.

Rol·ler <-s, -> [ˈrɔlɐ] SUBST m  http://de.pons.com/übersetzung/deutsch-englisch/Roller
Dok·tor (Dok·to·rin) <-s, -toren> [ˈdɔkto:ɐ̯, -ˈto:rɪn, pl -ˈto:rən] http://de.pons.com/übersetzung/deutsch-englisch/Doktor

There are several "schwa"-sounds, however, depending on region and word.

As you see in case of "Doktor", the rolled "r" is available if a vowel follows.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> As you see in case of "Doktor", the rolled "r" is available if a vowel follows.


That's not how it is to be read. Because of the different realizations of /r/ in German, many dictionaries don't even attempt to transcribe which /r/ applies. The transcription [r] stands for any /r/, i.e. [r], [ʀ] or [ʁ].


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## Hutschi

Hi, what I meant is that the rolled "R" is no option in "doktor" (except dialects and sometimes in comedy) but the "r" is spoken as (rolled) consonant in "Doktoren". Here I do not know a realization without rolled "r". The way of "rolling" and the time of rollig is not mentioned.
Maybe I hear a rolled "r" even if none is there.

The kind of rolling differs.

How is an "r" spoken if it is neither vocalized nor rolled?
Were is this the "normal" speech?


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> How is an "r" spoken if it is neither vocalized nor rolled?


Example (both rs).


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## Hutschi

Danke, Bernd. Bei Rot spricht es Wellenreiter fast unverständlich "chot" aus. "Grün" dagegen ist normal.
In meiner Umgebung habe ich - wo immer ich auch war - diese Aussprache nie gehört (zumindest erinnere ich mich nicht), und außerhalb des Zusammenhanges würde ich es nicht verstehen.
Ich verstehe aber jetzt, was einige in Foren meinten, wenn sie Wörter wie Foren wie "Fochen" (mich ch wie in "ach") beschrieben. (Beispiel von mir, es ist Jahre her.)

Diese Realisation kannte ich bisher nicht. Wo ist sie verbreitet?

Viele Grüße
Bernd


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## berndf

Am stärksten im NW (Niederrhein). Der Sprecher kommt aber wohl aus der Hamburger Gegend. Ich fand das Unvoicing auch überhaupt nicht stark. Ich hätte nie gedacht, dass dir das so stark auffällt.

Im Französischen gibt es dass auch, z.B. in "porte".


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