# Pronunciation: ch-



## blueberrymuffin

Hello!

I was wondering if anybody would happen to know where I can find a list of words with -ch, which are pronounced irregularly (sh). (online if possible)

eg. machine
      mustache
      cachet

Thank you!


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## coconutpalm

cliche,chauffeur (french words~~)


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## emma42

All these words have a French derivation or are direct loan words from French. 

*chagrin* (a feeling of annoyance) *Much to his chagrin* (very literary)
*chalet* (a wooden villa)
*chamois* (pronounced sham-ee).  Often used in chamois leather - a very sort leather cloth used to buff a car or a window that has just been washed.  *This window still has some smears - have you got a chamois?*
*chandelier*
*chanterelle (*mushroom)
*charade*
*charlatan*
*chassis (*shass-ee)
*chateau*
*chauvanist*
*chef*
*chevron*
*chignon*
*chivalry.*


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## daviesri

These use the "k" sound vs the "ch"
chaos
chasm
chemistry
chemical
choir
chlorine
christian
Christmas 
chronic


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## Outsider

Some corrections:


			
				blueberrymuffin said:
			
		

> moustache





			
				emma42 said:
			
		

> *chauvinist*


One more: *Michelle*


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## emma42

Ooh, yes, sorry! You are quite right. I did not mean to misspell chauvinist!

I've thought of another, important one - *sugar *(etymology - French, from Arabic, from Sanskrit - sharkara).


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## timpeac

General Pinochet "pin o shay"(although I've never understood why - presumably it is "tch" in Spanish, perhaps he is of French descent).

Papier mâché "papy ey mash ey".

Cheroot.


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## Outsider

emma42 said:
			
		

> I've thought of another, important one - *sugar *(etymology - French, from Arabic, from Sanskrit - sharkara).


I think that *Blueberrymuffin* is asking for English words that are spelled with _ch_ but pronounced with "sh".


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## emma42

Yes, I left out proper nouns.  But here are some (all French):

Chablis (shab-lee)
Chinoiserie (shin-waz-ur-ee)
Cheese.  *That is a joke!!! Don't pronounce it SHEESE.*


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## emma42

Sorry, got carried away with *sugar.  *It's one of my favourite things.


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## Markus

An interesting thing I learned in linguistics class is that French used to have the same ch sound as English but it changed. So you can tell the age of some words in English by their pronunciation. For example :

*chair *comes from French *chaise*, so it was borrowed from before the switch in French pronunciation.
*chandelier *was borrowed after


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## timpeac

parachute.


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## emma42

chute.


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## timpeac

I suppose the lesson from all this is that if it comes from French recently enough it keeps its "sh" pronunciation (any counter examples? I'm not sure if "chair" is or not, because it is a different word from "chaise".). I suppose the difficulty is knowing if it is a French borrowing or not!

I've also noticed that English speakers, or at least English English speakers, have a tendency to pronounce any foreign word written "ch" as "sh" rather than their native "tch". This often leads to them pronouncing Spanish placenames containing a "ch", for example, incorrectly. (Similarly I've noticed a tendency to pronounce all foreign words containing "an" "en" or "on" with a nasal as if they were French words too). Not always, of course, just a tendency.

For example, I've heard a lot of people pronounce "chiropodist" as "shiropodist" instead of "kiropodist" (from the Greek pronunciation).


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## Markus

Another example : *chain* from *châine*


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## lizzeymac

blueberrymuffin said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> I was wondering if anybody would happen to know where I can find a list of words with -ch, which are pronounced irregularly (sh). (online if possible)
> 
> eg. machine
> mustache
> cachet
> 
> Thank you!




Try this link.  Scroll down to Unit 5 s, sh, ch - they have downloadable mp3s & PDF workbooks. There are 13 units on English pronuciation.
I hope this is useful.


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## suzi br

Markus said:
			
		

> An interesting thing I learned in linguistics class is that French used to have the same ch sound as English but it changed. So you can tell the age of some words in English by their pronunciation. For example :
> 
> *chair *comes from French *chaise*, so it was borrowed from before the switch in French pronunciation.
> *chandelier *was borrowed after


 
yes this is an interesting fact, 

words from French that joined English way back in the medieval period have been anglicised and others, more recent additions, have kept their French ways.

chef is an intersting example since it is the same word as chief, apparently; we've anglicised chief but not chef.


(sorry about the random font size, I cant make it all the same!)
ch --
anglicised to/tʃ/change charge chimney
retain French/ʃ/champagne chivalry chaperone

The same happened with the ending --age too:

anglicised to idge/ɪʤ/ bandage pilgrimage cabbage courage language 
retain French /ɑːʤ/ badinage camouflage entourage


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## suzi br

timpeac said:
			
		

> I suppose the lesson from all this is that if it comes from French recently enough it keeps its "sh" pronunciation (any counter examples? I'm not sure if "chair" is or not, because it is a different word from "chaise".).


 
the online etymology dictionary says they are the same word:
*chaise* 1701, "pleasure carriage," from Fr., variant of _chaire_ (see *chair*) due to 15c.-16c. Parisian accent habit of swapping of _-r-_ and _-s-_, often satirized by Fr. writers.

 as an 18th word it is relatively NEW -


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## KittyCatty

machete
i can't think of any more! but i'll probably be back with some!


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## timpeac

KittyCatty said:
			
		

> machete
> i can't think of any more! but i'll probably be back with some!


Ah yes! There's another example of a non-French word inexplicablely given a "sh". I wonder if it is a kind of hypercorrection - the first people to use it in English were aware it was not an English word, but the only foreign language they had learnt was French so the pronunciation was a nod towards the fact it should be pronounced in a foreign way, but unfortunately not the right way nevertheless .


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## Joelline

I don't think all AE speakers pronounce *chassis (*shass-ee).  I, for one, pronounce it with the -ch, not the -sh sound.


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## vince

suzi br said:
			
		

> the online etymology dictionary says they are the same word:
> *chaise* 1701, "pleasure carriage," from Fr., variant of _chaire_ (see *chair*) due to 15c.-16c. Parisian accent habit of swapping of _-r-_ and _-s-_, often satirized by Fr. writers.
> 
> as an 18th word it is relatively NEW -



This seems like a very interesting phenomenon! Would you know what it's called, and are there other examples in French?

if chaise was chair, what was chair (flesh)?


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## timpeac

vince said:
			
		

> This seems like a very interesting phenomenon! Would you know what it's called, and are there other examples in French?
> 
> if chaise was chair, what was chair (flesh)?


Yes!! Thanks Vince, I meant to ask the same thing and then forgot - bated breath


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## Robbo

Without distinguishing between BE & AE, here is an exhausting but non-exhaustive list of examples:

affiche
attache
blanche
brochure
cache
cachet
cachou
chaine
chaise
charade
charlatan
chassis  (two pronunciations)
chateau
chemise
chenille
chic
chivalry
chivalrous
crochet
douche
eschalot / eschallot  = shallot
eschew
fetich = fetish
fiche & microfiche
gauche
louche
niche
panache
pastiche
penchant
pinscher (type of dog)
putsch
quiche
revanche (as in political policy)
ricochet
schmaltz, schmalz
schmuck
schnapps
schwa (linguistics)
Seychelles     [spelling corrected by Robbo]
stanchion (building construction)
subniche (habitat)
vichy (mineral water)


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## missjen

emma42 said:
			
		

> All these words have a French derivation or are direct loan words from French.
> 
> *chagrin* (a feeling of annoyance) *Much to his chagrin* (very literary)
> *chalet* (a wooden villa)
> *chamois* (pronounced sham-ee). Often used in chamois leather - a very sort leather cloth used to buff a car or a window that has just been washed. *This window still has some smears - have you got a chamois?*
> *chandelier*
> *chanterelle (*mushroom)
> *charade*
> *charlatan*
> *chassis (*shass-ee)?
> *chateau*
> *chauvanist*
> *chef*
> *chevron*
> *chignon*
> *chivalry.*


 
I wanted to add a side note as to the AE pronunciation of _chassis. _Everywhere that I have gone in the USA, and heard the word chassis, it is pronounced with the 'tch' sound 'tcha see'. I looked it up on merriam-webster and it lists both pronunciations as correct.

Miss Jen (who apparently doesn't read page 2, good job Joelline!)


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## maxiogee

Joelline said:
			
		

> I don't think all AE speakers pronounce *chassis (*shass-ee).  I, for one, pronounce it with the -ch, not the -sh sound.



That's an interesting word.
Séan O'Casey puts it into the mouth of a Dubliner in one of his plays. He wishes him to mean chaos, but also wishes to imply that he is big on thought but short on vocabulary
The character says "The whole world is in a state of chassis".

That is usually delivered as _*cha-sis*_.


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## timpeac

maxiogee said:
			
		

> That's an interesting word.
> Séan O'Casey puts it into the mouth of a Dubliner in one of his plays. He wishes him to mean chaos, but also wishes to imply that he is big on thought but short on vocabulary
> The character says "The whole world is in a state of chassis".
> 
> That is usually delivered as _*cha-sis*_.


Ah that reminds me - the Australian parents of a friend pronounce "chaos" as "tchay os" by which I thought they must mean a whole different word when I first heard it. Don't know if this is an idiosyncracy or whether that is common in Australia?


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## roxcyn

Basically if the word is a French origin it almost always has the "sh" sound.  Many examples have been provided above.

If the word is a Greek origin it almost always has the "k" sound.  Examples have been provided.

I think someone mentioned if the su come together it becomes "sh" sound as in *su*re or *su*gar.

Some language words that have been borrowed from languages as Italian mantain their original language sounds:

Examples: Chianti (Chi in Italian keeps the "key" sound.)
Cello (Italian world..  "ce" makes the "ch" sound)


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## roxcyn

daviesri said:
			
		

> These use the "k" sound vs the "ch"
> chaos
> chasm
> chemistry
> chemical
> choir
> chlorine
> christian
> Christmas
> chronic



Thanks for your examples.  This words all come from Greek and keep their "k" sound.


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## Joelline

Looking back over Robbo's list above, I found a few words where I would use a -ch sound. I don't claim to speak for all AE speakers, but I say:

*blanch* (AE spelling), meaning to parboil vegetables briefly = blanCH
*pinscher* (as in doberman) = pin-CHer (same pronunciation as for one who pinches!)
*putsch *= put-CH

To all you AE speakers, are these the common AE pronunciations or am I mispronouncing them? (Though, I can't imagine how I'd pronounce blanch with an -sh unless I nasalized the "an" as in French!).


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## Brioche

timpeac said:
			
		

> Ah that reminds me - the Australian parents of a friend pronounce "chaos" as "tchay os" by which I thought they must mean a whole different word when I first heard it. Don't know if this is an idiosyncracy or whether that is common in Australia?


 
It is not OzE pronunciation.
They are just wrong.




> *pinscher* (type of dog)
> *putsch*
> *schmaltz, schmalz*
> *schmuck*
> *schnapps*
> *schwa* (linguistics)


 
Those words are German, and _sch_ in German sounds like _sh_ in English.

Add to the list
*Champagne *
*Chicago*


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## Brioche

Joelline said:
			
		

> Looking back over Robbo's list above, I found a few words where I would use a -ch sound. I don't claim to speak for all AE speakers, but I say:
> 
> *pinscher* (as in doberman) = pin-CHer (same pronunciation as for one who pinches!)


 
Merriam-Webster agrees with you, 
but the Germans who "invented" the breed, say _pinsher_, and that's the pronuciation in Compact Oxford.

Another odd pronuciation is the flower _Fuchsia_, pronounced _fyoo-sha_


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## Joelline

"Fuschia" reminds me of the first time I saw "Echinacea." I thought it was pronounced E-china-see-a instead of Ek-in-a-sha!


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## Robbo

Joelline said:
			
		

> Looking back over Robbo's list above, I found a few words where I would use a -ch sound. I don't claim to speak for all AE speakers, but I say:
> 
> *blanch* (AE spelling), meaning to parboil vegetables briefly = blanCH


Hi, Joelline

Thanks for pointing out the correct pronunciation of "blanch" as in parboil.  It is always written "blanch" and pronounced -tch (not -sh; typo corrected by Robbo) both sides of the Atlantic and probably everywhere else too!

However, my list said "*blanche*" with an "e".   For example:

The salesperson was given *carte blanche* to negotiate the best price.

This of course does have -sh sound.   

It would have been better if I had said *carte blanche* in the first place rather than just *blanche*.

So thanks again.


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## timpeac

Robbo said:
			
		

> Hi, Joelline
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the correct pronunciation of "blanch" as in parboil. It is always written "blanch" and pronouced -sh both sides of the Atlantic and probably everywhere else too!
> 
> However, my list said "*blanche*" with an "e". For example:
> 
> The salesperson was given *carte blanche* to negotiate the best price.
> 
> This of course does have -sh sound.
> 
> It would have been better if I had said *carte blanche* in the first place rather than just *blanche*.
> 
> So thanks again.


Yes - I think it should have given "carte blanche" too. In BE "to blanch" is "tch" as well however so is the name "Blanche" (or at least that is how a relative of mine pronounces it, no nasal and a good Anglo-Saxon tch!)


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## Joelline

Robbo,

Actually, I noticed your spelling of "blanche," but I just assumed that you were using a BE spelling of "blanch"!

Joelline


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## maxiogee

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes - I think it should have given "carte blanche" too. In BE "to blanch" is "tch" as well however so is the name "Blanche" (or at least that is how a relative of mine pronounces it, no nasal and a good Anglo-Saxon tch!)



Wow, what synchronicity —> see this thread!


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## Robbo

Oh, No!  I've dropped a clanger.  When I said  ... "blanch" ... pronouced -sh ... I really meant -tch (as is consistent with the rest of my post).

I was trying to contrast pronunciation of blanch (parboil) -tch with blanche (carte blanche).  

I'm really sorry for not spotting my typo earlier.   Humble pie, etc, etc.


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## maxiogee

Robbo said:
			
		

> I'm really sorry for not spotting my typo earlier.   Humble pie, etc, etc.



Best served with blanched vegetables, of course!


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## suzi br

vince and timepac ... 

Hi guys,
I'm afraid I cannot offer more on the chaise / chair thing - it just happened to be in the reference that I used.  Sorry! 

Meanwhile,  maybe I'm being pedantic, but when there is clearly more than one way of saying the grapheme "ch" it doesn't really make sense to call it "irregular".


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## Outsider

suzi br said:
			
		

> Meanwhile,  maybe I'm being pedantic, but when there is clearly more than one way of saying the grapheme "ch" it doesn't really make sense to call it "irregular".


It's the least frequent pronunciation*, and you only find it in loan words.

*Not counting the "ch" of "Loch" and "chanukkah". Now, that would be pedantic.


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## panjandrum

timpeac said:
			
		

> [...] In BE "to blanch" is "tch" as well however so is the name "Blanche" (or at least that is how a relative of mine pronounces it, no nasal and a good Anglo-Saxon tch!)


In BE as I know it, blanch is blansh, not blantch???

Timpeac?   Are you sure?


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> In BE as I know it, blanch is blansh, not blantch???
> 
> Timpeac? Are you sure?


Absolutely! I even find it difficult to say "sh" without nasalising the preceding vowel.

"He blaahshed the sheets" would sound very strange to me. As for when it's a name, as I say - a relative of mine is called blantch.


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