# schermaglie amorose



## MissBehave

I would like to know how "schermaglie amorose" could best be translated in English. 

"Lovers' tiffs" or "lovers' skirmishes" (??), I guess, but I have the suspicion in Italian there might be more  connotations. Is it a verbal repartee? an offense/defense on other levels too?...

Also, any literary examples or scenes from a film that would illustrate the phrase better would be highly appreciated...


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## Odysseus54

I think "love skirmishes" is the closest.  The concept in Italian includes all those seemingly irrational and contradictory maneuvers that people who are seriously interested in one another do.  I suspect they are a necessary game of dominance and submission, which like all combat sports is played vigorously but with some control, players feigning injury etc etc.


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## elfa

'Skirmishes' sounds like they are getting physical. I think 'lovers' tiffs' comes closest.


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## MissBehave

I appreciate all three responses. They clarified the meaning to me. Thank you very much!


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## King Crimson

Perhaps another option is _lovers' jousting_; the following lines are from Alison Moyet's song "This House":

_I hear the din of lovers jousting
When I'm hiding with my head to the wall
Who will shelter me?
It's cold in here﻿_


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## elfa

King Crimson said:


> Perhaps another option is _lovers' jousting_; the following lines are from Alison Moyet's song "This House":
> 
> _I hear the din of lovers jousting
> When I'm hiding with my head to the wall
> Who will shelter me?
> It's cold in here﻿_



Um...not really. "jousting" brings to mind medieval knights taking a swipe at each other with lances  In my opinion, song lyrics tend to use poetic license and are unreliable as sources of bona fide word definitions.


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## King Crimson

Nice to hear from you Elfa, yes _jousting _here is obviously used figuratively, but I appreciate your opinion that it only conjures up medieval tournaments (all I have to say in my defence is that _schermaglie _too evokes the same scenario)


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## ohbice

King Crimson said:


> Nice to hear from you Elfa, yes _jousting _here is obviously used figuratively, but I appreciate your opinion that it only conjures up medieval tournaments (all I have to say in my defence is that _schermaglie _too evokes the same scenario)



Ciao KC, ciao Elfa. Per quello che vale, anch'io ho pensato in un primo momento che l'espressione lovers joustings potesse essere troppo antiquata. Tuttavia, se è vero che "schermaglia" è un termine ben vivo, nella politica, nel giornalismo, in vari ambiti, è anche vero che _lovers joustings _non lascia adito a dubbi: si tratta di un giostrare amoroso che coglie il senso dell'originale.


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## King Crimson

Ciao oh bice. Questo è quello che ho pensato anch'io: poiché in italiano risulta naturale usare in modo figurato questo termine (schermaglie) quando è inserito nel giusto contesto, diamo per scontato che sia così anche in altre lingue (in inglese, in questo caso). La risposta di Elfa, invece, fa capire che le traduzioni più o meno letterali di "schermaglie" perdono questa proprietà e conservano... solo il significato letterale. Sentiamo se arrivano anche altri pareri, comunque...


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## Alessandrino

The thing is that while _schermaglie amorose_ is an established idiom, it seems to me that _lovers jousting_ only occurs in Alison's song. It works just fine in a song, and perhaps it also evokes a certain idea of romance, whose origins are lost in the mists of time. But as soon as the song ends, the magic goes away. I guess what elfa wanted to suggest is that nobody would say it in real life, unless they're trying to sound particularly ridicolous.


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## joanvillafane

I don't think you've heard from an AE speaker yet. (MissBehave, not sure where you are???) - but here we call them "lovers' quarrels."


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## johngiovanni

"Lovers' spats"?


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## joanvillafane

"Lovers' spats"? 
Yes, we hear that, too.  Less frequently, I think.


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## King Crimson

As a follow-up to my post let me add that “schermaglie amorose”, as I see it, has a playful yet mischievous ring to it and this is the trickiest part of this translation, so my question to Joan and John is: are “quarrels” or “spats” capable to capture this nuance or are they just / mainly used to refer to a mundane (and possibly bitter) argument between lovers?



Alessandrino said:


> The thing is that while _schermaglie amorose_ is an established idiom, it seems to me that _lovers jousting_ only occurs in Alison's song. It works just fine in a song, and perhaps it also evokes a certain idea of romance, whose origins are lost in the mists of time. But as soon as the song ends, the magic goes away. I guess what elfa wanted to suggest is that nobody would say it in real life, unless they're trying to sound particularly ridicolous.



I agree that just about no one would use “schermaglie amorose” in everyday language (other idiomatic uses of "schermaglie", such as “schermaglie politiche” are much more common), but in the right context I believe it would sound humorous and light hearted, so we shouldn’t be concerned about it sounding weird or ridiculous.


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## elfa

King Crimson said:


> As a follow-up to my post let me add that “schermaglie amorose”, as I see it, has a playful yet mischievous ring to it and this is the trickiest part of this translation, so my question to Joan and John is: are “quarrels” or “spats” capable to capture this nuance or are they just / mainly used to refer to a mundane (and possibly bitter) argument between lovers?
> 
> I agree that just about no one would use “schermaglie amorose” in everyday language (other idiomatic uses of "schermaglie", such as “schermaglie politiche” are much more common), but in the right context I believe it would sound humorous and light hearted, so we shouldn’t be concerned about it sounding weird or ridiculous.



As a BE speaker, "spats" to me fits the bill - it has something light-hearted about it, and no-one would believe that any couple having one was going to get a divorce or separate as a result of it! As for "lovers' jousting" (with or without the apostrophe), Alessandrino more or less got it right in post 10 - it does sound odd, but it's also just plain wrong in this context, regardless of any kinship it might have with the Italian "schermaglie".


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## johngiovanni

I agree with Elfa.  Interestingly, the word "spats" is rather unusual, and I have rarely come across it outside the collocation "lovers' spats".  "Spat" suggests something "petty", though it may seem important at the time, and - hopefully - it goes away so that we can live happily ever after.  So I think it does have a light-hearted sense to it.  We all have our spats, but we get over them.


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## BlakMark

elfa said:


> 'Skirmishes' sounds like they are getting physical. I think 'lovers' tiffs' comes closest.


To my mind tiffs are arguments or upsets that will probably be got over, but are disagreements nonetheless.
I prefer the jousting suggestion for this reason. It is done in sport. It is arguably a little posh, middle class register.


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## theartichoke

Going way back to Odysseus's post in 2009, I'm wondering if _schermaglie amorose _are indeed "tiffs" or "spats," or if the meaning is closer to what we'd call "lovers' games":



Odysseus54 said:


> The concept in Italian includes all those seemingly irrational and contradictory maneuvers that people who are seriously interested in one another do. I suspect they are a necessary game of dominance and submission, which like all combat sports is played vigorously but with some control, players feigning injury etc etc.



Two lovers could have a "tiff" or  "spat" over why one of them always has to pick the wet towels up off the floor. There seems to be a connotation of "a series of elaborate psychological maneuvers" in _schermaglie_ that's missing from "tiff" and "spat." Or am I wrong? Is a "lovers' spat" never about the mundane, or could there be _schermaglie _about towels?


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## A User

elfa said:


> 'Skirmishes' sounds like they are getting physical.


In ‘schermaglie amorose’, del significato militare (combattimento a distanza) cioè che viene preso in prestito è il fatto che i contendenti non vengano mai a diretto contatto (che non vengano alle mani), ma si fronteggino a distanza e che il risultato non è mai risolutivo in favore dell’uno o dell’altro.
In pratica il confronto si limita, o si dovrebbe limitare, al piano comunicativo.


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## BlakMark

theartichoke said:


> Going way back to Odysseus's post in 2009, I'm wondering if _schermaglie amorose _are indeed "tiffs" or "spats," or if the meaning is closer to what we'd call "lovers' games":
> 
> 
> 
> Two lovers could have a "tiff" or  "spat" over why one of them always has to pick the wet towels up off the floor. There seems to be a connotation of "a series of elaborate psychological maneuvers" in _schermaglie_ that's missing from "tiff" and "spat." Or am I wrong? Is a "lovers' spat" never about the mundane, or could there be _schermaglie _about towels?


Good question : could there, indeed, be “schermaglie amorose” about towels (or socks, underpants etc.)? I think it’s unlikely. It’s likely to be too mundane. It misses the connotation of elaborate manoeuvres that you suggest, I think rightly, is implied. Of course the couple could, nevertheless, start some kind of iterative game (that ‘schermaglie’ is plural is perhaps significant) over anything. So can a running argument/ disagreement, with a quasi-flirtatious gameplaying dimension be a ‘tiff’? May be. But I’m not entirely convinced. So I still think ‘jousting’ catches the iterative, game-playing dimension better. There is no need to see it as implying violence or injury: ‘verbal jousting’ is well understood to be just that, verbal. Verbal game play, rather thatrical. So “lovers’ verbal jousting”, then? Perhaps, but it‘s long-winded and specifying ‘verbal’ seems unnecessar.


A User said:


> In ‘schermaglie amorose’, del significato militare (combattimento a distanza) cioè che viene preso in prestito è il fatto che i contendenti non vengano mai a diretto contatto (che non vengano alle mani), ma si fronteggino a distanza e che il risultato non è mai risolutivo in favore dell’uno o dell’altro.
> In pratica il confronto si limita, o si dovrebbe limitare, al piano comunicativo.



So: 1) avoiding contact, and 2) verbal/communicative.
So surely, therefore, not physical?


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## A User

Per piano comunicativo intendo sia il _linguaggio verbale_ sia il _linguaggio del corpo_ (body language).
“Lanciar-si frecciate” è il verbo che rende lo stesso significato del sostantivo “schermaglia”


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## ohbice

Scusate, non ho letto l'intera discussione, ma rispetto all'ultima affermazione di A User mi trovo in disaccordo: *lanciarsi frecciate *significa a mio parere combattere una guerricciola verbale (in un rapporto amoroso ma anche in un rapporto di altro tipo). Schermaglie amorose invece significa (sempre a mio modo di vedere) quell'insieme di atteggiamenti che precedono e in parte accompagnano una fase prettamente sessuale di un rapporto di coppia. Mi sembra si possa usare, a titolo di paragone, quell'insieme di movimenti e segnali anche sonori che caratterizzano la "danza di corteggiamento" di molte specie animali.


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## A User

Sono d’accordo, Ohbice. Mi riferivo alle frecce di Cupido. Il contesto è quello della caccia, non della guerra.
Ci si contende il ruolo di cacciatore e quello di preda.
Altrimenti avrei potuto dire “lanciare stoccate”.


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## theartichoke

BlakMark said:


> So I still think ‘jousting’ catches the iterative, game-playing dimension better.



"Lovers' jousting" is an entirely comprehensible metaphor, but the trouble is that it remains a metaphor, and a fairly unusual one: it's not an idiomatic English expression like _schermaglie amorose _is in Italian.

"A lovers' spat / tiff" is an idiomatic expression, but it refers to a literal argument about something, and not much more. "Lovers' games" is also at least somewhat idiomatic, and refers to psychological maneuvers and manipulations, not arguments. Since ohbice (#22) has suggested "la danza di corteggiamento" as a comparison, there's also "the courtship dance," which, unlike "lovers' games," has none of the slightly darker connotations of psychological manipulation. (Also, I suspect people can only engage in "lovers' games" _after _they become lovers; "the courtship dance" is what occurs beforehand.)


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## Pietruzzo

"Schermaglie amorose", without any further context,  makes me think of "flirtatious teasing".


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## A User

Let me try.What about _love approaches_?
Faccio riferimento al fatto che la schermaglia, nelle antiche battaglie, avveniva tra le *avanguardie* dei due eserciti, per prendere coscienza della consistenza dell’avversario, di scoprirne i punti deboli e decidere se combattere in attacco o in difesa, o ritirarsi senza ingaggiarlo.


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## elfa

Mi dispiace, A User, ma "love approaches" non ha alcun senso in questo contesto.
"Flirtatious teasing" sounds too lightweight to me. When you talk about people "flirting", it's usually between two people who are not (yet) in a relationship. Am I wrong to think that the "schermaglie amorose" refers to the actions of an existing couple?


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## Pietruzzo

elfa said:


> Am I wrong to think that the "schermaglie amorose" refers to the actions of an existing couple?


As I'd said in my previous post, it depends on the context, which we don't have.


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## theartichoke

Since BlakMark re-resurrected this thread, which somehow got started with neither an original Italian sentence to translate nor any context, maybe they have a sentence to give us?


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## Pietruzzo

Okay, I'll provide  a made-up context myself.
Let's say two colleagues are always teasing each other and it's clear they are just flirting. I could say:
"Perché non la smettete con le schermaglie amorose e non andate direttamente a letto?".


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## Matzap

Forse varrebbe la pena rivalutare "lovers skirmishes"? Magari lavorando più sul lovers (loving, romantic, love)?


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## You little ripper!

Pietruzzo said:


> Okay, I'll provide  a made-up context myself.
> Let's say two colleagues are always teasing each other and it's clear they are just flirting. I could say:
> "Perché non la smettete con le schermaglie amorose e non andate direttamente a letto?".


_Why don’t you stop the games/flirting and find yourselves a motel room!  _


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## A User

You little ripper! said:


> Why don’t you stop the games...?


Perché non rompete gli indugi...?
Schermaglie amorose / Love’s hesitation


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## theartichoke

You little ripper! said:


> _Why don’t you stop the games/flirting and find yourselves a motel room!  _



_Enough with the foreplay: just get a room already!  _(Yes, it's technically not "foreplay," but in this particular sentence it works.)


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## johngiovanni

The more I read this thread, the more I like Odysseus's lovers' "skirmishes".  Certainly, my earlier "spats" does not really convey the "manouevres".
It seems more about "lovers' game-playing".  My "spats" did not do that justice. The Artichoke is right.


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## Pietruzzo

johngiovanni said:


> The more I read this thread, the more I like Odysseus's lovers' "skirmishes"


To me "lovers skirmishes" are more "bisticci fra innamorati" than "schermaglie amorose" .


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## johngiovanni

"Lovers' machinations"?


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## Odysseus54

Pietruzzo said:


> To me "lovers skirmishes" are more "bisticci fra innamorati" than "schermaglie amorose" .



In fact, what I suggested back then was "love skirmishes".


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## theartichoke

Matzap said:


> Forse varrebbe la pena rivalutare "lovers skirmishes"? Magari lavorando più sul lovers (loving, romantic, love)?



Digging up this thread from last week to add what I'd been intending to add before something exploded at work: anything to do with "skirmishes," be they "love skirmishes" or "lovers' skirmishes," is, like anything to do with "jousting," a fine metaphor, but not an idiomatic expression. I suspect that there's no fixed English expression that's the exact equivalent of _schermaglie amorose_. We certainly have the concept -- YLR and I could instantly translate Pietruzzo's sentence into colloquial English -- but any individual translation will depend entirely on the context. There are many contexts in which _schermaglie amorose_ would absolutely _not _translate as "foreplay."


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## Odysseus54

Time to ask the Oracle. 

The de Mauro has:

_gioco di attacco e difesa nel corteggiamento e nella seduzione:_

Nothing to do with lovers' quarrels.  Could 'foreplay' be used here, not in a strictly sexual sense and without too much of a metaphorical stretch and the risk of being misunderstood ?


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## theartichoke

Odysseus54 said:


> The de Mauro has:
> _gioco di attacco e difesa nel corteggiamento e nella seduzione:_
> Nothing to do with lovers' quarrels.  Could 'foreplay' be used here, not in a strictly sexual sense and without too much of a metaphorical stretch and the risk of being misunderstood ?



The only expression I can think of that comes close is "the courtship dance," but again, it would depend on the context. "Foreplay" typically _is _used in the strictly sexual sense: my example earlier of "enough with the foreplay: get a room already!" is in fact a play on the sexual sense of "foreplay," jokingly implying that the teasing co-workers are literally arousing each other. It's something I could only imagine saying to two people I knew _very _well and could be sure that they wouldn't take offence. (I figured this would have to be the situation if you're telling someone _perché non andate direttamente a letto?) _The risk of being misunderstood, otherwise, would be pretty high.


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