# nollapersoona with obligations or prohibitions?



## Gavril

Päivääpä,

In another thread, I wrote,

_Peltosilla ei syö kyynärpäät pöydällä!_

Where _ei syö_ is the *nollapersoona* form (i.e., the “impersonal” 3rd person form) of _syödä._

Grumpy Old Man corrected this, replacing _ei syö _with the passive/impersonal form _ei syödä._

This brings up a question: can the _nollapersoona_ form generally be used when you are expressing an obligation or a prohibition? E.g., if you wanted to say,

“In this house, one washes one's hands before eating” (= One must wash one’s hands before eating)
or
“Here, one does not wear shoes indoors.” (= One mustn’t wear shoes indoors here)

could you translate them (respectively),

_Tässä taloudessa pesee kätensä ennen kuin syö._
_Ei tule tänne sisään kengät jalassa._

?

Kiitos,
Gavril


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## MaijaPoppanen

You have to use passive/impersonal forms.

_Tässä taloudessa pestään kädet ennen syömistä/kuin syödään.
Tänne ei tulla sisään kengät jalassa._


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## altazure

Using nollapersoona instead implies for example possibility, ability or  suitability. In these cases, "kyllä" or "ei" is often added:

Kyllä tällä saippualla kätensä* pesee*. > This soap is good (enough) for washing your hands (but not the best).
Vaikka Britanniassa onkin vasemmanpuoleinen liikenne, samalla tavalla siellä *ajaa*  kuin täälläkin. > ...you can drive the same way there as you do  here. (= driving is the same even though the rules are different)

This reminded me of how in  old Finnish movies you can still hear older language use, where one  polite way of referring to other people and, indeed, asking them to do  something, was the third person: "Rovasti on hyvä ja _ottaa_ kahvia!" "Elisa _siivoaa_  nyt tämän sotkun." The verb form resembles nollapersoona, but the  construction is actually active ("rovasti...ottaa", "Elisa siivoaa").  Nowadays, this is still used sometimes, but in a sarcastic or  condescending manner.


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## MaijaPoppanen

altazure said:


> This reminded me of how in old Finnish movies you can still hear older language use, where one polite way of referring to other people and, indeed, asking them to do something, was the third person: "Rovasti on hyvä ja _ottaa_ kahvia!" "Elisa _siivoaa_ nyt tämän sotkun." The verb form resembles nollapersoona, but the construction is actually active ("rovasti...ottaa", "Elisa siivoaa"). Nowadays, this is still used sometimes, but in a sarcastic or condescending manner.


 Actually, this is also used in retirement homes (at least in those where my great grandmothers are) and then it's not sarcastic or condescending. Old people are probably used to that kind of language.


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## Gavril

Thanks for the responses. One more question that occurred to me: can you use the _nollapersoona _form to describe a general practice, in which case it would have a meaning similar to _"on tapa [tehdä jtk]"_?

E.g., could you say, 
_
Tässä maassa antaa yleensä tipin tarjoilijalle__. _"In this country, one generally leaves a waiter a tip"
or
_Täällä päin ei yleensä anna tippiä syömisen jälkeen_. "Around here, one doesn't usually leave a tip after a meal."

Neither of these are "commands" in the way that the earlier sentences (_Tässä taloudessa pestään kädet ..._) were: they're just descriptions of how things are normally done in different places.


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> _Tässä maassa annetaan yleensä tipin tarjoilijalle__. _"In this country, one generally leaves a waiter a tip"
> or
> _Täällä päin ei yleensä anneta tippiä syömisen jälkeen_. "Around here, one doesn't usually leave a tip after a meal."


You can see this article of VISK for differences and comparisons between passive and zero person constructions.


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