# Norwegian: innenfor opptrukne rammer



## Gavril

An excerpt from the evaluation of a Norwegian military officer by his superiors:

_Tar initiativ og treffer selvstendige avgjørelser innenfor opptrukne rammer._

How is _opptrukne_ functioning in this sentence?

So far, all that I can glean about "opptruken" is that it means "pulled upwards" (e.g. the landing gear of a plane is "opptruken" during flight), but I can't quite square this meaning with the above context.

Takk


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## AutumnOwl

My understanding of "innenfor opptrukne rammar" would be "within drawn/set borders", within what his duties/orders is.


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## Segorian

Itʼs probably also worth mentioning that the verb is not _*opptrekke_, but _trekke opp. _Example:


> _gjennom å trekke opp rammer for virksomheten på generalforsamlingen kan staten som eier likevel øve innflytelse på selskapets virksomhet_


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## Svenke

_Opptrukne _is the plural of _opptrukken_, which is a participle made from _trekke opp_ 'pull/draw up'. You can literally _trekke opp_ something, like a fishing net, or you can, for instance, _trekke opp_ a line, a border etc.


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## bicontinental

Just to add, _opptrukne _it is used figuratively here. A line etc. can be highlighted or marked so that it stands out and gets your attention. In this case you could say that the officer makes independent decisions within his area of authority or responsibility.


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## winenous

In the context of the question, I think English speakers can pretty much translate the verb _trekke opp_ literally as _draw up_ (see dictionary definition meaning 1 in the link)_. _Also _ramme _as _framework_.

The only issue is that, even if the verb _draw up_ is commonly used in that sense, its adjective form sounds clumsy in English. We just wouldn't naturally turn the verb _draw up_ into an adjective and say _the drawn-up framework_s. Thus would probably use an adjective with a slightly different meaning, like _relevant_. (Edit: _existing _would be a better translation, I think.)

I think this is essentially what others are saying too - I am just trying to explain that once you see the words in the right way, the Norwegian is a lot more easily understood to an English speaker.


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## serbianfan

'Ramme(r)' is one of those words Norwegians use perhaps more often, but certainly somewhat differently from the English 'equivalent', i.e. 'framework'. I think Bicontinental's translation of 'within his area of authority or responsibility' sounds much better than trying to put 'framework' in that sentence.


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## winenous

serbianfan said:


> 'Ramme(r)' is one of those words Norwegians use perhaps more often, but certainly somewhat differently from the English 'equivalent', i.e. 'framework'. I think Bicontinental's translation of 'within his area of authority or responsibility' sounds much better than trying to put 'framework' in that sentence.


I see what you mean, and agree - framework was not a good translation


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## serbianfan

This reminds me of an intelligent piece I came across on the Internet about translating the German 'Rahmenbedingungen' (but it could equally well apply to 'rammebetingelser' in Norwegian). I quote part of it: 'Translating the extremely common German term “Rahmenbedingungen” into clear English is fraught with difficulty. The standard and widely accepted translation – “framework conditions” – suffers from one crucial problem: it is not English. _The New York Times_, for example, has only used “framework conditions” five times (!) in its entire publication history, in all instances to refer to statements made by a German politician or executive'. Translators would do well to think along those lines: "That's what it says in the dictionary, *but is it English?*"


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## winenous

serbianfan said:


> "That's what it says in the dictionary, *but is it English?*"


That's a good question, and I don't think the answer is black and white.

_Frame_ and _ramme_ are etymologically related, and the meaning is pretty much the same - even more similar if the English word _framework_ is used rather than _frame_. And yet in English it would be rarely used in a non-physical sense, while it is more common in other languages.

I think it *is* English to use framework in that sense, but in most cases it would not be a good translation. As you said, the translation can be "fraught with difficulty" - I will leave it to the translators to do their job and worry about that one


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## Gavril

Thanks again

As an American English speaker, I'd say that the problem with a translation like "_within the established framework"_ isn't the word _framework_ itself, but that it's too vague in this context -- you need to further specify what framework you're talking about (e.g., "_within the framework of his established duties"_).


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## raumar

I am not a native English speaker, but from my perspective, "limits" or "boundaries" (or "borders", as AutumnOwl suggests in post 2) seems to be closer to the Norwegian "_rammer_", compared with "framework". 

In a civilian context, I think the sentence "_Tar initiativ og treffer selvstendige avgjørelser innenfor opptrukne rammer"_ would look like a rather backhanded compliment, since the limits to his initiative and independence is so explicitly mentioned. But I suppose that it looks better in a military context, where obedience to the hierarchy is valued.


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## serbianfan

winenous said:


> I think it *is* English to use framework in that sense, but in most cases it would not be a good translation.


Well, of course it's English, not Chinese  - that's just the writer's way of saying it, whereas you or I would probably say 'It's not normal English/not normally used in English' or similar. Thinking back to my schooldays in a not very posh part of London, I think if someone made a mistake or used an unusual word, the kids would probably have said, 'That ain't English, mate!'


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## winenous

> I am not a native English speaker, but from my perspective, "limits" or "boundaries" (or "borders", as AutumnOwl suggests in post 2) seems to be closer to the Norwegian "_rammer_", compared with "framework".


That's what I thought at first - that _ramme _was a frame in the sense of a picture frame or border - something surrounding something else and limiting its scope. (As also suggested by @AutumnOwl)

But then I decided it was rather a frame in the framework sense - a supporting structure - which seems to be the more fundamental meaning in English. I think the picture frame word came by analogy to a window frame which, back in the day of small glass panes, would also be the supprting structure for the window as a whole. So it is not something that is designed specifically to limit the powers of the applicant, but the structure/context within he must work. (I thought that meaning was hinted at by later comments by others, which I found persuasive.)

I am really feeling my way here, with my rather limited knowledge of Norwegian, but also bearing in mind what people have been saying, and having checked the various meanings and etymology of _frame _in English.

To change the subject slightly, _terms of reference_ is another posible translation for _opptrukne rammer._


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## winenous

serbianfan said:


> Well, of course it's English, not Chinese  - that's just the writer's way of saying it, whereas you or I would probably say 'It's not normal English/not normally used in English' or similar. Thinking back to my schooldays in a not very posh part of London, I think if someone made a mistake or used an unusual word, the kids would probably have said, 'That ain't English, mate!'


It sounds to me like exactly the sort of English that is generated by various EU organisations. Here are the top few hits I found with a quick google search....
"The Commission is working on a proposal for the framework programme that will succeed Horizon 2020"
"The strategic and governance framework underpinning the European Semester"
"What is the Transparency & Consent Framework (TCF)?"
"Ensuring a sound and effective framework at EU level is therefore a key priority"

The kids would probably say the same about that language, and to be honest I would tend to agree. But we must allow that the English language is allowed to change, and if the EU use it for their business they have as much right to mangle it as anyone.


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## AutumnOwl

winenous said:


> That's what I thought at first - that _ramme _was a frame in the sense of a picture frame or border - something surrounding something else and limiting its scope. (As also suggested by @AutumnOwl)
> 
> But then I decided it was rather a frame in the framework sense - a supporting structure - which seems to be the more fundamental meaning in English. I think the picture frame word came by analogy to a window frame which, back in the day of small glass panes, would also be the supprting structure for the window as a whole. So it is not something that is designed specifically to limit the powers of the applicant, but the structure/context within he must work. (I thought that meaning was hinted at by later comments by others, which I found persuasive.)
> 
> I am really feeling my way here, with my rather limited knowledge of Norwegian, but also bearing in mind what people have been saying, and having checked the various meanings and etymology of _frame _in English.
> 
> To change the subject slightly, _terms of reference_ is another posible translation for _opptrukne rammer._





AutumnOwl said:


> My understanding of "innenfor opptrukne rammar" would be "within drawn/set borders", within what his duties/orders is.


I didn't see the borders of the person's duties as something limiting, but as a knowledge support for what they are expected to handle, and what kind of authority they have (if any), and make their best performance of the job.


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## serbianfan

Fortunately, nobody's ever asked me to translate 'rammebetingelser', though I have had to struggle with translating various other Norwegian 'nøtter' (hard nuts to crack), such as 'faglig'. It seems that even the little ones (or at least their parents) can't escape 'rammebetingelser' because I found a 'virksomhetsplan' for a Norwegian kindergarten, presumably partly aimed at parents, because it's mostly written in everyday language, where Section 1 was 'Velkommen' and Section 2 was 'Rammebetingelser for barnehagen'. Excitedly, I scrolled down to Section 2 to find out what 'rammebetingelser' really meant and what did I find? Exactly the kind of stuff we would put under the heading of 'General Information' in English - the name of the manager, the sections of the kindergarten, when the staff have meetings with each other and with parents, and so on.

So, in this case (and maybe many others) neither a 'framework' nor 'conditions' in normal English


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## winenous

AutumnOwl said:


> I didn't see the borders of the person's duties as something limiting, but as a knowledge support for what they are expected to handle, and what kind of authority they have (if any), and make their best performance of the job.


OK, fair enough. I misinterpreted what you said


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