# Persian / Urdu: The letter qaaf ق



## Qureshpor

*Within the Urdu alphabet we know that we have some consonanats that are purely Indic while others are purely Persian or Arabic. qaaf is certainly Arabic but there are many words in Urdu/Persian which are not Arabic. Are they Turkish or does Persian have a qaaf as well? I am not concerned here with the modern Persian qaaf/Ghain amalgamation. Here are a few such words.

qurbaan
qirmiz
dehqaan
qalaaqand
qalaabaazii
qalaash
qalandar
qalyaan
qainchii



*


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## BP.

_qaynchii _might be from Turkçe. There's a considerable Turkish vocabulary with the _q_ in it, and some of it has infused into Urdu during the early part of the millennium. Our qizilbaash are originally Turks and they have a q in their name.

As a rule of thumb, all Urdu words, particularly those describing a person's profession, ending with a -_chii _are from Turkçe. _khazaanchii _for example.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _
> qaynchii _might be from Turkçe. There's a considerable Turkish vocabulary with the _q_  in it, and some of it has infused into Urdu during the early part of  the millennium. Our qizilbaash are originally Turks and they have a q in  their name.
> 
> As a rule of thumb, all Urdu words, particularly those describing a person's profession, ending with a -_chii _are from Turkçe. _khazaanchii _for example.


 Yes, BP SaHeb! _qayNchii_ surely is Turkish and you are right also baout the -chii suffix. I seem to remmeber we did this a while back.



QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Within the Urdu alphabet we know that we have some consonanats that are purely Indic while others are purely Persian or Arabic. qaaf is certainly Arabic but there are many words in Urdu/Persian which are not Arabic. Are they Turkish or does Persian have a qaaf as well? I am not concerned here with the modern Persian qaaf/Ghain amalgamation. Here are a few such words.
> 
> qurbaan
> qirmiz
> dehqaan
> qalaaqand
> qalaabaazii
> qalaash
> qalandar
> qalyaan
> qainchii
> *



Persian does have qaaf words and even now I think the Yazdi ( and  elsewhere in Iran, not to mention the Afghani Persian) pronunciation has  retained the distinct qaaf sound.

_*qurbaan*_  - *Arabic*

A قربان qurbān (inf. n. of قرب 'to approach'), s.m. lit. 'That whereby  one draws nigh to God'; a sacrifice, victim, offering, oblation (syn.  ṣadqa; balihārī);—a quiver:—qurbān karnā, v.t. To sacrifice; to  devote:—qurbān-gāh, s.f. A place of sacrifice, an altar:—qurbān honā, or  qurbān jānā (-par), To be sacrificed, or devoted (for); to devote  oneself (for another). 

*qirmiz-Arabic* 

A قرمز qirmiz (P. also qirmiz, for kirmiz = S. कृमिज kr̤imi-ja, 'worm-engendered'), s.m. Kermes; crimson; cochineal. 

*dehqaan-Persian-Arabic* 

دهقان (dehghan) Noun A-P 1. A peasant, a husbandman; a farmer. Syn.  روستایی & زارع || 2. The bailiff of a village; a mayor. Syn. کد خدا  || 3. A landlord. [From. P. دهگان which means literally 'related to a  village'. [(dahaghin) دهاقین = Plural] 

*qalaaqand-Hindi-Arabic-Persian-Sanskrit!* 

H قلاقند qalā-qand (prob. for kalā+qand, qq.v.), s.m. A kind of sweetmeat. 

But  _*qand*_, it self is Arabic from Persian and ultimately Sanskrit:

A قند qand (the arab. form of P. کنه kand = S. खण्ड khaṇḍ), s.m. White  crystallized sugar; loaf-sugar (not sugar-candy, which is termed  miṣrī);—(loc.) coarse brown sugar, molasses, treacle (cf. khāṅḍ, or  khāṅṛ);—s.f. A kind of cloth, Turkey red. 

*qalandar-Persian* 

P قلندر qalandar (for orig. کلندر 'a rough unshaped block or log'; fr. kaland or kuland = kanand; see kandan, and kunda), s.m. A kind of wandering Muhammadan monk, with shaven head and beard, who abandons everything, wife, friends, and possessions, and travels about;—a bear-dancer;—the shell, or the fly, of a tent. 

We also discussed this  here.

*qalyaan-Persian-Arabic*

P قليان qaliyān, or qalyān (prob. akin to qaliya, q.v.), s.m. A pipe for smoking through water, a kind of ḥuqqa.

But originally from the Arabic, غلیان (_*ghalayan*_)!

غلیان (ghalayan) Noun A 1. Boiling, ebullition; bubbling; fermentation, effervescence. Syn. جوش || 2. Fig. Tumult. Ex. غلیان غمومی را فرو نشاند He quelled the popular tumult.
نقطه یا درجۀ غلیان Boiling-point. غلیان کردن Intransitive verb To boil; to bubble. To ferment. Syn. 

*qainchii-Turkish*

T قینچی qainchī, Scissors; St. Andrewʼs cross; the joists of a roof; a truss; a rostrum. 

BTW, we nasalise it: _qay*N*chii_ !

For the other two:

قلاش _*qalaash*_ Turkish = مفلس _*muflis*_ (Arabic) = بے زر _*be zar*_ (Persian).

_*qalaabaazii *might_be a Turkish-Persian hybrid but I'm not sure. The suffix _*baazii*_ is of course Persian but not too sure of _*qalaa.*_


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## tonyspeed

Faylasoof said:


> _*qurbaan*_  - *Arabic*
> 
> A قربان qurbān (inf. n. of قرب 'to approach'), s.m. lit. 'That whereby   one draws nigh to God'; a sacrifice, victim, offering, oblation (syn.   ṣadqa; balihārī);—a quiver:—qurbān karnā, v.t. To sacrifice; to   devote:—qurbān-gāh, s.f. A place of sacrifice, an altar:—qurbān honā, or   qurbān jānā (-par), To be sacrificed, or devoted (for); to devote   oneself (for another).




See also the Hebrew word Qorban


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> See also the Hebrew word Qorban


   Thanks! Yes I have an interest in Hebrew too!

ק.ר.ב and ق.ر.ب are equivalent Hebrew- Arabic roots! Each gives a word which makes a cognate for the two languages. From ق.ر.ب we get what Platts is saying although one can always say the etymology of *قربان qurbaan* is ultimately Hebrew but we should also look at other Semitic languages as well before we conclude this, I think.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> *qalandar-Persian*
> 
> P قلندر qalandar (for orig. کلندر 'a rough unshaped block or log'; fr. kaland or kuland = kanand; see kandan, and kunda), s.m. A kind of wandering Muhammadan monk, with shaven head and beard, who abandons everything, wife, friends, and possessions, and travels about;—a bear-dancer;—the shell, or the fly, of a tent.
> 
> We also discussed this  here.
> 
> *qainchii-Turkish*
> 
> T قینچی qainchī, Scissors; St. Andrewʼs cross; the joists of a roof; a truss; a rostrum.
> 
> BTW, we nasalise it: _qay*N*chii_ !



*Khailii sipaas-guzaar hastam!

It seems that "qalandar" is the only purely Persian word with a "qaaf" from amongst my list!

And yes, WE too use a nasal in qaiNchii. But, I did n't want any "real" Persian speakers on my back arguing over the nasalisation!
*


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## eskandar

Faylasoof said:


> *qirmiz-Arabic*
> 
> A قرمز qirmiz (P. also qirmiz, for kirmiz = S. कृमिज kr̤imi-ja, 'worm-engendered'), s.m. Kermes; crimson; cochineal.


If we are talking about the ultimate origin of the word, then قرمز should be considered to be from Sanskrit (mentioned in Platts as you quoted, also confirmed in this Turkish etymological dictionary). It merely entered Persian (and thus Urdu) from Arabic, but it is not of Arabic origin.



> *dehqaan-Persian-Arabic*
> 
> دهقان (dehghan) Noun A-P 1. A peasant, a husbandman; a farmer. Syn.  روستایی & زارع || 2. The bailiff of a village; a mayor. Syn. کد خدا  || 3. A landlord. [From. P. دهگان which means literally 'related to a  village'. [(dahaghin) دهاقین = Plural]


While I know this is just an issue of semantics, this is not exactly a 'Perso-Arabic' or 'Persian-Arabic' word but rather an Arabicized Persian word. I would consider a Persian-Arabic word to be something like علمدار, a compound formed of the Arabic word علم and Persian word دار, in contrast to an Arabicized Persian word like دهقان (or for another example قند as you explain below).




QURESHPOR said:


> *Khailii sipaas-guzaar hastam!
> 
> It seems that "qalandar" is the only purely Persian word with a "qaaf" from amongst my list!
> *


قلندر is the Arabicized form of the Persian کلندر. So according to this criteria, we could also count دهقان as a 'purely' Persian word from your list, as well as قند which janab Faylasoof suggested.

I would add: the sound ق [q] is not native to Persian and was not present prior to contact with Arabic, so there are no native Persian words with ق besides those that originally had ک and were later Arabicized. However, غ [ɣ] did exist in Middle Persian prior to Arabic and there are many native or 'pure' Persian words that have this sound, such as کاغذ, aside from those with this sound which were borrowed from Arabic or Turkish.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> If we are talking about the ultimate origin of the word, then قرمز should be considered to be from Sanskrit (mentioned in Platts as you quoted, also confirmed in this Turkish etymological dictionary). It merely entered Persian (and thus Urdu) from Arabic, but it is not of Arabic origin.


Yes, I agree butwe are looking at _*qaaf*_ words in Urdu and where they come from either remotely or otherwise. 


Faylasoof said:


> ....
> *qirmiz-Arabic*
> 
> A قرمز qirmiz (P. also qirmiz, for kirmiz = S. कृमिज kr̤imi-ja, 'worm-engendered'), s.m. Kermes; crimson; cochineal.


 Ultimately قرمز  is indeed from the Sanskrit कृमिज!



eskandar said:


> While I know this is just an issue of semantics, this is not exactly a 'Perso-Arabic' or 'Persian-Arabic' word but rather an Arabicized Persian word. I would consider a Persian-Arabic word to be something like علمدار, a compound formed of the Arabic word علم and Persian word دار, in contrast to an Arabicized Persian word like دهقان (or for another example قند as you explain below).


I understand what you mean! 


Faylasoof said:


> *dehqaan-Persian-Arabic*
> 
> دهقان (dehghan) Noun A-P 1. A peasant, a husbandman; a farmer. Syn.    روستایی & زارع || 2. The bailiff of a village; a mayor. Syn. کد خدا    || 3. A landlord. [From. P. دهگان which means literally 'related to a    village'. [(dahaghin) دهاقین = Plural]


 When I say Persian-Arabic, I mean _originally_ Persian then Arabic - and where there was a گ to ق shift in دهقان, as shown.

Well in fact قند  _*qand*_ is ultimately of Sanskrit origin!


Faylasoof said:


> *qalaaqand-Hindi-Arabic-Persian-Sanskrit!*
> 
> H قلاقند qalā-qand (prob. for kalā+qand, qq.v.), s.m. A kind of sweetmeat.
> 
> But  _*qand*_, it self is Arabic from Persian and ultimately Sanskrit:
> 
> A قند qand (the arab. form of P. کنه kand = S. खण्ड khaṇḍ), s.m. White    crystallized sugar; loaf-sugar (not sugar-candy, which is termed    miṣrī);—(loc.) coarse brown sugar, molasses, treacle (cf. khāṅḍ, or    khāṅṛ);—s.f. A kind of cloth, Turkey red.


 BTW, The Turkey red reference is new to me!



eskandar said:


> قلندر is the Arabicized form of the Persian کلندر. So according to this criteria, we could also count دهقان as a 'purely' Persian word from your list, as well as قند which janab Faylasoof suggested.


 I thought it was clear that it was originally Persian, and here we have a ق to ک shift going from Persian to Arabic.



Faylasoof said:


> *qalandar-Persian*
> 
> P قلندر qalandar (for orig. کلندر 'a rough unshaped block or log'; fr.   kaland or kuland = kanand; see kandan, and kunda), s.m. A kind of   wandering Muhammadan monk, with shaven head and beard, who abandons   everything, wife, friends, and possessions, and travels about;.....


 P = Persian!



eskandar said:


> I would add: the sound ق [q] is not native to Persian and was not present prior to contact with Arabic, so there are no native Persian words with ق besides those that originally had ک and were later Arabicized. However, غ [ɣ] did exist in Middle Persian prior to Arabic and there are many native or 'pure' Persian words that have this sound, such as کاغذ, aside from those with this sound which were borrowed from Arabic or Turkish.


 I understand your argument and agree but as Urdu borrowed many words from Persian we are including those that may have a ق but have either pure Persian origin or have come into Urdu-Hindi via Persian.


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## Qureshpor

*What's the final consensus? Is the consonant qaaf part and parcel of purely Persian words or not*?


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## eskandar

Depends on how you're defining 'purely Persian'. If you're asking whether there are any Persian words with qaaf that originally had that sound prior to contact with Arabic, the answer is no. However, there are originally Persian words like دهگان and کلندر that have been changed to دهقان and قلندر under Arabic influence - so we can say those are 'purely Persian' words that have been Arabicized to use qaaf.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> Depends on how you're defining 'purely Persian'. If you're asking whether there are any Persian words with qaaf that originally had that sound prior to contact with Arabic, the answer is no. However, there are originally Persian words like دهگان and کلندر that have been changed to دهقان and قلندر under Arabic influence - so we can say those are 'purely Persian' words that have been Arabicized to use qaaf.


 No I do not mean this at all! I've read Pahlavi texts too!

I agree! Mentioned above.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> Depends on how you're defining 'purely Persian'. If you're asking whether there are any Persian words with qaaf that originally had that sound prior to contact with Arabic, the answer is no. However, there are originally Persian words like دهگان and کلندر that have been changed to دهقان and قلندر under Arabic influence - so we can say those are 'purely Persian' words that have been Arabicized to use qaaf.



*Thank you, Eskandar SaaHib. The answer to my question therefore is "No".*


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## aisha93

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the origin or the history of the letter ق in Persian, I see it only in words of Arabic and Turkish origin and very few other words which I don't know their origin.

Such as: قبل/مقابل/قاضی/قبیح/قاتل ... etc. (for Arabic) and قاشق/باتلاق/باقچه/چلاق/قاچاق (for Turkish).
Other words like: قالیچه/قلیان/قند/قلندر ...etc.

*- What makes me wonder is that those Turkish words are not pronounced by ق in Turkish but ک and sometimes هـ such as باقچه/bahçe, so how come they are pronounced by ق in Persian?* (I don't know if these words are used in Urdu, but if yes, then are they pronounced the same?)

*- When did the letter ق first enter Persian and Urdu alphabets? and why do they pronounce it as it is pronounced in Arabic? unlike other letters such as: ح/ض/ظ ...etc.*

thanks


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## fdb

Yes, the letter ق  occurs in loanwords from Arabic, Turkish and Mongolian. In the modern Republican Turkish script it corresponds to the letter_ k_, but in all Turkic languages /k/ has two allophones: [q] in words with back-vowel harmony, and [k’] in words with front-vowel harmony, so the spelling of these words with ق  in Arabic, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, etc. is actually legitimate.


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## hindiurdu

aisha93 said:


> What makes me wonder is that those Turkish words are not pronounced by ق in Turkish but ک and sometimes هـ such as باقچه/bahçe



More knowledgeable people than I can comment on most of your questions. Quick observation on this is that, while this may be the case for modern Turkish, other Turkic languages do have the q sound. In Kazakh, for example, there is a new letter that was created in the Cyrillic script to depict it, Қ.


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## eskandar

One thing I can add is that the Persian qaaf is not pronounced exactly as in Arabic, at least not in contemporary Iranian Persian. In Arabic, qaaf represents [q] but in Iranian Persian it really represents either [ɢ] (similar to [q] but with vibration in the vocal cords) or [ɣ] (same as the Arabic ghayn), depending on where the qaaf appears in the syllable.


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## fdb

That is true, but in Afghanistan and Tajikistan it is just like Arabic /q/.


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## marrish

^Correct, and in Pakistan as well.


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## Qureshpor

A lot of Punjabi and Urdu stories for children have beings with magical powers (jinns and pariis) dwelling in a place called "koh [-e-] qaaf". Where does this "qaaf" come from?


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## aisha93

^
You mean why is it by ق not ک? it might has been Arabized (معرب) like some other words such as قند ...etc.

Here you can read about it


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## fdb

QURESHPOR said:


> A lot of Punjabi and Urdu stories for children have beings with magical powers (jinns and pariis) dwelling in a place called "koh [-e-] qaaf". Where does this "qaaf" come from?



_Jabalu l-qāf_ is an Islamic concept, not a Persian one (despite what it says in Wikipedia). But I think we need a separate thread for this.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> One thing I can add is that the Persian qaaf is not pronounced exactly as in Arabic, at least not in contemporary Iranian Persian. In Arabic, qaaf represents [q] but in Iranian Persian it really represents either [ɢ] (similar to [q] but with vibration in the vocal cords) or [ɣ] (same as the Arabic ghayn), depending on where the qaaf appears in the syllable.


 eskandar SaaHib, I guess the Yazdi dialect of Persian is an exception to your above statement. We had a discussion about this a while back, *here*. It seems they have retained the _qaaf_ sound and do not pronounce it as a ‘Ghain’,  so _che qadr_ and not _che Ghadr_! That would be _Ghadr_ indeed as far as we are concerned!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> A lot of Punjabi and Urdu stories for children have beings with magical powers (jinns and pariis) dwelling in a place called "koh [-e-] qaaf". Where does this "qaaf" come from?


 _koh-e-qaaf_ = _paristaan_  = the Caucasus mountains. 

But there are also mountain peaks in Afghanistan with names like  Koh-e-Qafqul / Qafol OR Qaafqul (?), here - in red!)  and Qafzar OR Qaaf-Zar(?), here and here). Not sure if it is _qaf _or _qaaf_ in either names but it doesn't matter since the _koh-e-qaaf_ refers to the the Caucasus anyway. 

So hard to say exactly where this “_qaaf_” of _koh-e-qaaf_ came from. Given the reference in stories, the Turkic dialects of the Caucasus originally, but perhaps via the Afghan route – both having retained the _qaaf_. At least for most Afghan dialects the _qaaf_ is still distinct from either the _kaaf _or the _Ghain_.


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## Faylasoof

Just to add a little more to what has been said, Ottoman Turkish indeed had a distinct _qaaf _sound and our word for mince (قیمہ _*qiimah*_) comes from there. We had a discussion about this too. Please see the link above, post#20.


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## eskandar

Faylasoof said:


> eskandar SaaHib, I guess the Yazdi dialect of Persian is an exception to your above statement. We had a discussion about this a while back, *here*. It seems they have retained the _qaaf_ sound and do not pronounce it as a ‘Ghain’,  so _che qadr_ and not _che Ghadr_! That would be _Ghadr_ indeed as far as we are concerned!


Yes, Yazdi (and apparently Kermani and some other Iranian dialects) have preserved a distinction between the two, though as far as I can tell in Yazdi again we have /ɢ/ and /ɣ/ - as opposed to /ɢ/ with allophones [ɢ] and [ɣ] as in Tehrani Persian - that is to say, it still does not have [q] as in Arabic.


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