# Look very forward for Very much look forward to



## Nourished Gourmet

Hi everyone -- Just curious, does the intensifier "very" in the idiomatic expression "look forward to" have any validity in whatever variety of English if placed in the phrase as in the following example: "We"re all looking very forward to this vacation in Nebraska!" as an alternative to 'We're all very much looking forward to this vacation in Nebraska!" If it does have some validity, so I'm pretty certain there'll hardly be anyone on this forum to object to what follows: "As you guys can pretty well imagine, I really am looking little forward to having my in-laws over for lunch next Sunday!" Please advise. Thank you.


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## JustKate

I'd never say _very forward_. I don't believe _forward_ can be modified in that way, but I'd be interested to see if I'm wrong about that.


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## bennymix

Nourished Gourmet said:


> I'm pretty certain there'll hardly be anyone on this forum to object to what follows: "As you guys can pretty well imagine, I really am looking little forward to having my in-laws over for lunch next Sunday!" Please advise. Thank you.



I object, NG.     If not ungrammatical, it's tremendously awkward.

 I'd say,  "I'm very little looking forward to my in-laws' visit."**  Even more natural would be "I'm not at all looking forward to my in-laws' visit."    The point is to modify the verb 'look'.

**Or, re-arranged:  "I'm very looking forward, very little, to my in-laws' visit."  {somewhat odd}

In general, one looks forward to something or doesn't;  the qualifiers sound weird.


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## london calling

In BE  'I'm very much looking forward to....' is perfectly all right, but if you leave the 'much' out it sounds decidedly strange.  And 'I really am looking little forward to..' sounds very odd to these BE ears.


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## JustKate

My AmE ears agree with LC's BE ears.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Thank you for helping out, Bennymix. So, I take it for granted that you also object to the placement of "very" in "We're all looking very forward to this vacation!", don't you? I actually would never say "look very forward to" either, it's just that I recently came across it being used by some American scholar in a letter posted online, which I'm afraid I can't seem to find anymore and, as grammatically incorrect as it apparently is, it didn't sound - and still doesn't actually - that off to my ears, and so just wanted to check with some native speakers like you if this usage had any grammatical validity at all. By the way, "I'm very looking forward to..." as you quoted, sounds pretty odd to me, in the same way as "I'm very anticipating" would.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Lucky me! Even though I still can't seem to find aymore the online scholar's letter closing up with "look very forward to"  - sorry about that! - here's what I found in the COCA: http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/x.asp?r1=&w=768&h=1024
And so, "look very forward to" might eventually have some validity -  at least in AE - as ungrammatical and unusual as it may sound. Please comment. Thank you.


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## Loob

Nourished Gourmet said:


> here's what I found in the COCA: http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/x.asp?r1=&w=768&h=1024


*What* did you find in the Corpus of Contemporary American English, please?


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello Loob, Thank you for helping out. What I actually found in the COCA is an excerpt from _CNN Politics_ including the phrase "looking very forward to." Please check again. Thank you.


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## Loob

Nourished Gourmet said:


> ... What I actually found in the COCA is an excerpt from _CNN Politics_ including the phrase "looking very forward to." Please check again. Thank you.


Could you give us the complete sentence, please, Nourished Gourmet?  And could you tell us whether this was spoken or written English?

(We shouldn't need to check links to understand the question you are asking.)


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## Nourished Gourmet

Sorry about that, Loob. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Here's the full excerpt. Hope it'll help some!


Date    2000 (20000811)
Title    Gore's Plans Biographical Acceptance Speech; Bush Presents Gore with Convention Challenge; Buchanan Running Mate Reflects Message of Inclusion
Source    CNN_Politics
Expanded context:

_<< -- excessive quotation deleted -- >>_ HALE: Well, I think you saw with the announcement of Senator Lieberman, which has been met very, very well across the country with a great deal of enthusiasm, that the vice president will be out and now running his own campaign, and along with Senator Lieberman as their ticket, in a very positive step to campaign. The president will be here Monday night. *We're looking very forward to that*. I am certain that his speech will show all the accomplishments of the Clinton-Gore administration, and I think it will be a very emotional and a very uplifting speech SHAW You mentioned the fact that the vice president chose and announced Mr. Lieberman from Connecticut, but the fact that the two men will not be together here publicly in terms of pictures, that is also part of your thinking, part of your calculus HALE I think way too much of that has been made of that either in ...


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## Mahantongo

This is a transcription (which may or may not be accurate) of spoken English.  People are far more likely to make mistakes of grammar when speaking -- and this is clearly a slip of the tongue.  In any case, what you want to do is to use this not in extemporaneous speech, but as a deliberately chosen phrase in writing.  As such, it is not a valid alternative in American English, but instead sounds very, very odd.


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## sdgraham

The Internet provides access to all kinds of information, including personal oddities, misspoken words and *total nonsense*, such as you have discovered here.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello Mahantongo and sdgraham, Thank you for helping out. I couldn't agree more with that. The only thing is...well...I surely don't mean to open a can of worms - or to stir up a hornet's nest either - but I made an advanced Google search for the key word phrase "Look very forward to" last night as I couldn't seem to find with a classic search the letter that I referred to earlier on - authored by someone that, as far back as I can remember, appeared pretty articulate in English (at first glance at least) - and what I dug up is way beyond anything I could have ever expected and surely doesn't hardly limit itself to an inconsiderable number of what Mahantongo described in his post as a "slip of tongue." I literally found hundreds of these so-called totally nonsensical examples swarming the Net, some of them sticking out like sore thumbs on respectable education-related websites. I wish I could have given you guys the full list but I would have been up for a humongous task if I had done so, and hence picked out nothing more than "la creme de la creme," if you'll pardon my using an expression stemming from French. Hope this scoop of premium, full-fat sour cream won't go too hard on your digestion. Bon appétit!

Source: www.kimberly.k12.wi.us/.../schaefer%2013.14.pdf

TEACHER WELCOME 2013-2014

" ..._<< -- excessive quotation deleted -- >>_ I graduated from UW-Milwaukee in 2010, and received my masters in Administration and Supervision from National Louis University in 2010. In my free time I love spending time with my family, doing anything outdoors, creating art, and visiting new places. If you would like to view any of my personal artwork, I have a website showing many of paintings that have been created over the last several years. I *look very forward to* a great school year!..."


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## london calling

Dear NG,

That has definitely ruined my digestion! Call it what you will (_total nonsense_ , as sdg says or_ codswallop _, which I prefer), but don't use it


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## JustKate

I agree with London Calling. I don't doubt that people say it and write it, but if a native speaker says it, it's almost always by accident. I really recommend that you not use it as well. It just sounds wrong, and it will sound wrong to most native speakers.


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## Myridon

Nourished Gourmet said:


> ... up for a humongous task ...


The Internet is almost entirely made of errors. Now that you have found "look very forward to", you can look at the 8 trillion webpages where "you're" should be "your" and vice versa, followed by the zillion webpages where "there", "their", and "they're" are misused, then you can work on the infinity of webpages that have one comma too many or too few.
I have found that common misspellings of phrases sometimes make up 20-30% of the Google hits for that phrase.  There are 2 billion hits for "look forward to" and only 5 million hits for "look very forward to".  That's a very tiny number of mistakes in comparison.  There are a million hits for "lok forward to" and 26 million hits for "look froward to".


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello London Calling and Justkate, Thank you for helping out with this. These indeed are native speakers, some of whom are actual scholars, that used it. On top of that, they did better than saying it: they wrote it! May I suggest that I post a more striking example of such nonsense to back up my claim. You bet il'll gladly comply...


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## rhitagawr

It seems that in principle the prepositions and adverbial particles used in phrasal verbs can't be qualified. So you can _look forward to something _or you can _very much look forward to something_. You can _get on well with someone _but you can't _get well on with someone_. Etc.
_Very forward _works but only when _forward_ is an adjective._ He's a very forward person. He introduces himself to everyone. He always has something to say for himself_.


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## london calling

Nourished Gourmet said:


> May I suggest that I post a more striking example of such nonsense to back up my claim.


Don't bother, NG. You can try and back up your claim as much as you wish but I'd still say it was codswallop.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello Myridon, Thank you for helping out. Sorry to say but "lok forward" and "look froward to" are no grammatical mistakes - unlike "look very forward to" - but mere typos.


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## JustKate

Nourished Gourmet said:


> Hello Myridon, Thank you for helping out. I'm sorry to tell you that but "lok forward" and "look froward to" are no grammatical mistakes - unlike "look very forward to" - but mere typos.


Yes, but his main point is still valid, which is that people make lots of mistakes that are nonetheless enshrined on the Internet, probably forever. "Look froward" is a typo, and almost everybody who wrote it did so by accident, but still, you can find it all over the place by googling. 

"Look very forward to" is also an accident. It's probably not a typo, but when a native speaker uses it, it's almost always by accident. They either accidentally left off "much" after "very," or they meant to leave "very" off entirely. It is just as easy to make that sort of mistake as it is to write "froward" instead of "forward." In fact, it's easier since spell-check won't catch it.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Well. even if "much" was left in the phrase, it still would be a grammatical mistake as long as modifiers should not separate parts of a verb phrase like "look forward to" or "come up with", and so "look very much forward to" is nothing more than ungrammatical.


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## PaulQ

A Google earch for "We're all looking very forward to" (inc. quotes) finds some hits. Here are the first few that confirm sdgraham's (#13) worst fears... the interwebs do not require literacy.

_http://ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/392435/5.html
I'm Jayme. 27 y/o guy from Pittsburgh. Me, my mom and grandma are coming down 3/31/11 - 4/9/11 and staying with my Aunt Eileen and Uncle Dan (They own DandE's frozen custard) We're all *looking very forward to it,* can't wait!

https://www.facebook.com/justin.standley.54/posts/487582191314958
*We're all looking very forward to you opening our Centre *May 28 Justin. It's going to be great and an honour to have you perform again Hinkler Central! 

http://betweenourselvesandourland.wordpress.com/page/2/
Next week we’re all heading off to the Small Farmers Journal Horsedrawn Auction in Madras. It is a wonderful time and a good opportunity for learning, networking, and buying equipment, and *we’re all looking very forward to it.

*_The only redeeming factors are (a) there are only 32 examples, (b) none of the above are BE speakers...


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## Nourished Gourmet

That's right! And when such so-called grammatical accidents are clearly sourced from supposed highly articulate educational facility principals and officials, that really tops it all off!


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## Nourished Gourmet

Here's another persnicketily picked sample of these so-called accidents for you guys to enjoy:

http://www.du.edu/intl/elc/allison.html
_"...I look very forward to seeing you.."_

http://www.cula.edu/page.php?pageId=1
_"...Congratulations! We look very forward to receiving your application..."_

http://hrs.appstate.edu/hrs-directory
_"...We strive for quality customer satisfaction and look very forward to serving you in the future..."_

http://phs.petroliaisd.org/ourpages/hs/principalsmessage.jsp
_"...I look very forward to meeting and working with each and every one of you as we embark on a new school year..."_

http://www.brhschools.org/blogs.cfm?blog=9
_"...I look very forward to greeting all the students, and as many parents as possible on the first day of school..."_

http://www.rsu.edu/admissions/hoffman.asp
_"...As a recruiter, I look very forward to tell you more about Rogers State University!..."_

What did you say these actually are? Slips of the tongue? Accidents? Come on, gimme a break!


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## Loob

Nourished Gourmet, if you are determined to use "I look very forward to" despite all the comments you have received in this thread, you are entirely at liberty to do so.


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## rhitagawr

Loob said:


> Nourished Gourmet, if you are determined to use "I look very forward to" despite all the comments you have received in this thread, you are entirely at liberty to do so.


Just don't expect the rest of us to be impressed. In the meantime, I'll look very after my children. I'll get very over my cold. I'll save very up for Christmas. And I'll carry very out all my plans. I agree very with everybody.


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## Nourished Gourmet

You bet I am not, but some native speakers on this forum have the nerve to claim that what obviously stands out as a deliberately and meticulously chosen grammatical construction is - ungrammatical as it's been profusely demonstrated in this thread - just purely accidental.


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## JustKate

I think most of them *are* purely accidental. I could be wrong, of course, but jeez, I've made worse writing errors in my time. 

If the choice is between (1) assuming a native speaker would purposely write or say something that sounds completely unidiomatic to every native speaker in this thread, and (2) assuming that the native speaker made a writing or speaking error that's very easy to do, it seems to me that (2) is by far the most likely choice. 

As I said, I could be wrong, but as someone who listens to native speakers talk and edits their writing day in and day out yet who has seldom seen or heard "look very forward to," I think I am justified in that assumption.


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## Nourished Gourmet

As I said further up in this thread, "look very forward to" - as ungrammatical and unidiomatic at it indeed is - doesn't sound that off tune to my ears. Actually, I even found some musicality in it, and so some native speakers, unfamiliar with or having partially, if not totally, forgotten the grammar rule which implies that modifiers should not separate parts of a verbal phrase like "look forward to" might be tempted to deliberately say or write in copious amount such grammatical blatherskite as "look very forward to." Anyone to agree?


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## Loob

I don't understand your question "How does that sound?" "Anyone to agree?", Nourished Gourmet.  Are you trying to find an explanation for the various examples of "look very forward to" that you've found?

If so, I'd say that "native speakers forgetting a grammatical rule" is the least likely explanation. There are a whole host of possibilities, ranging from "accident" (which I agree with Kate is the most likely explanation) to "we are seeing the beginning of a completely new idiom".

I don't understand where you want to go with this thread.


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## JustKate

Musicality is in the ear of the listener, but I can't say that I get much from "look very forward to." The idiom "very much look forward to" is idiomatic but nonetheless very stiff and formal sounding. It's the sort of thing a person would say as part of his after-dinner speech rather than how he'd speak when talking to his friends. "Look very forward to" sounds to me just as stiff and is, in addition, unnatural to my ear. I don't "hear" any benefit.

<<Response to off-topic post removed>>


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello Loob, Thank you for helping out again. The possibility that we are seeing the birth of a mutant form of idiom indeed is one likely sensible explication. Had you come through with such a devastating finding earlier! It then could have avoided a lot of unnecessary shilly-shally by bringing this thread to a rapid close. Thanks anyway for your helpful contribution in this, and to the rest of you guys for the wonderful assistance that you provided.


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## Andygc

I've just made a Google search for "look very forward to". I've taken the offer of including results very similar to ones already seen. Google gives me 58 pages, claiming 4,560,000 hits. In reality, 58 pages is about 580 hits. Some of those are quotations of other hits,  some are non-native. It makes no sense to take this small number of examples as being an evolving idiom. It's just wrong. That a few people working in universities make mistakes in English usage should come as no surprise.


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## bennymix

NG.   I agree with your point that you've put rather abrasively a couple times.  The speakers saying "I look very forward to" do not seem to be mistyping or to be illiterate.

It's my opinion that they are acting as if "I'm looking forward" is like "I'm feeling well." and so you can add 'very' to intensify.

Such mistakes do sometimes become standard over years.

You said,
_By the way, "I'm very looking forward to..." as you quoted, sounds pretty odd to me, in the same way as "I'm very anticipating" would. 
===
_I think a better analogy would be to try to try to intensify  "I'm planning ahead for retirement"  to "I'm planning very ahead for retirement."_


Well. even if "much" was left in the phrase, it still would be a grammatical mistake as long as modifiers should not separate parts of a verb phrase like "look forward to" or "come up with", and so "look very much forward to" is nothing more than ungrammatical. 

_While there is something to your putative rule, I think it misses the point above, as to grammaticality.In fact, some speakers keep grammaticality and occasionally break up idioms, but do it skillfully.   To take your example,  How about  "Time is precious.  I hope he comes up soon with some better ideas."   Or,  "I look, eagerly, forward to your response."


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## velisarius

I'd be surprised if this mistake, or whatever it is, catches on - simply because it emphasises the wrong word. "I'm looking forward to" has a meaning; it means I am imagining something in the future, it looks good, and I'm eager for it to happen. If I say "I'm looking very forward", I am saying that the desired something is very far in the future. That's why it _feels _wrong. I could say (wrongly) "I'm very looking forward to it", because "very" would be qualifying the whole phrase.


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## Nourished Gourmet

Hello Bennymix, Thank you for backing me up in this. You did pretty well in debunking the apparently well enshrined, unreconstructed theory that any use of such ungrammatical bunkum as "look very forward to" in speech - but most of all in writing - by a native speaker would be nothing else than accidental. Thank you for your remarkable contribution to this thread.


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## Andygc

Nourished Gourmet

Did you actually understand what bennymix wrote? He's not backing you up. He's agreeing that the people who misused the language in this way did not do it accidentally or by mistake. This misuse of English was deliberate. It is, however, difficult for a literate English speaker to understand why somebody would wish to abuse the language in this meaningless way. On the face of it, "I'm looking very forward to meeting you" could just about mean that I expect to meet you in 5 or 10 years time. It can't possibly have any meaning of anticipated pleasure because it splits the idiomatic phrase "looking forward", thereby destroying its meaning - the anticipation of a pleasurable event.

I'm struggling to understand the point of this thread. A few misguided people write a meaningless phrase on a few websites and you seem to think that the phrase has some meaning and identity as a new idiom. It doesn't have any meaning, and it isn't a new idiom. Given that it is such a clumsy and meaningless phrase, the likelihood of its wriggling its way into colloquial English seems vanishingly small. I don't see that your being rude to people who tell you these truths is going to advance anybody's understanding of the language.


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## JamesM

I have to agree with Andygc (and others).  Simply finding an example, or even a few examples, of an odd use of words doesn't indicate a trend.  I can find half a dozen examples on the internet of "looking very down on" something (where "looking down on" means disapproving of) but it would still be a strange thing to hear from a native speaker.


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## Catsmeow

I think it would read better if it were written thusly:
"We are all, very much, looking     
 forward to our vacation in 
 Nebraska."
Put the *'very much'* as an emphatic interrupter.

*OR*

   "We are all looking forward to 
    our vacation in Nebraska very 
    much."


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## velisarius

Nourished Gourmet said:


> as an alternative to 'We're all very much looking forward to this vacation in Nebraska!"



That was back in post #1. 

The addition of "very much" is already emphatic. The pair of commas suggested in #41 isn't necessary, and they break the flow of the sentence.


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