# The boy roasted the fish that he caught



## Wollongong

Hi, this is a question for fluent speakers of *C*hinese! I would really appreciate your help!

 - I*'*m curious to know how to say, in *C*hinese, the sentence 

'The boy roasted the fish that he caught'

*C*an anyone help me by giving me a translation in English script? I also wanted to know exactly how the word order differs, so if you could provide in brackets exactly what each word signifies in *E*nglish so I can see how the structure differs from *E*nglish - it would be really helpful if you could identify which words are nouns, which word is the verb etc. Also how strict is word order in *C*hinese? *I*s there and different way to say the sentence in *C*hinese? *O*r is there only one set pattern?

I know it*'*s a lot to ask, but any help you can give me would be most appreciated!


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## Sayaka

hi Wollongong, what do you mean by translate in English script?


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## patrick_socal

Sayaka said:


> hi Wollongong, what do you mean by translate in English script?



I think he means pinyin.


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## Wollongong

yeah, by 'english script' I mean a rendering of the language that I would be able to (at least attempt) to read and say phonetically without knowledge of Chinese symbols. 

sorry I wasnt clearer!

thankyou


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## AVim

Let me try to construct a simple map for you, please use colors to match positions of the phrases:

The boy roasted the fish that he caught.

   nan2 hai2  kao3  ta1 zhua1 de1  yu2.
[none/subject]      [verb]    [relative clause as an adjective]  [none/object]


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## Wollongong

thanks a lot for that (sorry it took so long to reply, but my internet is down at home!)

but Im a little confused by your usage of "none" (eg. [none/subject] )

do you mean noun?


and the letters after certain words. eg - nan*2* hai*2 *kao*3* ta*1* zhua*1 *de*1* yu*2*.

what do they mean?

thanks in advance and sorry to be irritatingly slow in getting back. Once again this is most appreciated


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## xiaolijie

> and the letters after certain words. eg - nan*2* hai*2 *kao*3* ta*1* zhua*1 *de*1* yu*2*.
> 
> what do they mean?


They're there just to indicate the tone of each respective syllable, so they may not be relevant to you.
(But anyway de*1* here should be de, neutral tone)


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## gazagoal

On Avim
They're all one syllable words.
 [nən] [haɪ]      [kaʊ]            ['tʌ] [dʒu:ʌ] [d'ɜ] [ju:]
   The boy       roasted     the fish that he caught.
  nan2 hai2       kao3              ta1 zhua1 de1 yu2.

[ju:] sounds like the 'ut' in the French 'salut'


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## AVim

Wollongong said:


> thanks a lot for that (sorry it took so long to reply, but my internet is down at home!)
> 
> but Im a little confused by your usage of "none" (eg. [none/subject] )
> 
> do you mean noun?



Sorry about the confusion, yes, it's noun. Thank god, you could dope out what I mean.


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## lite2073

If I want to say it in Chinese, I would say: 那个男孩把他抓的鱼烤了。There are two advantages in this translation:
1. it's a more natural style. Instead of saying 烤了鱼，it's more natural to say 把鱼烤了
2. translated 'the' and used past tense


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## Wollongong

The boy roasted the fish that he caught.

nan2 hai2 kao3 ta1 zhua1 de yu2.

So, a literal translation of this chinese sentence into english would be -

The boy roasted that he caught fish

is that right?


And in the words "nan2 hai2" which is the word meaning 'the' and which is the word meaning 'boy'?

and is there a referrer (a word meaning 'the') attached to yu2 ? or do you just say 'fish' without any word meaning the?


thankyou


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## AVim

Wollongong said:


> The boyroastedthe fishthat he caught.
> 
> nan2 hai2kao3 ta1 zhua1 de yu2.
> 
> So, a literal translation of this chinese sentence into english would be -
> 
> The boyroasted that he caught fish
> 
> is that right?


Right, the clause is used as a normal modifier.



Wollongong said:


> And in the words "nan2 hai2" which is the word meaning 'the' and which is the word meaning 'boy'?
> 
> and is there a referrer (a word meaning 'the') attached to yu2 ? or do you just say 'fish' without any word meaning the?
> 
> 
> thankyou



Well, I forgot to translate these articles, my fault.
Please let me map them again:



 The -> na4 ge
 boy -> nan2 hai2 er
 roasted  -> kao3
 the -> na4 tiao2
 fish -> yu2
 (that)
he -> tai
caught -> bei zhua1 dao4

The boy roasted the fish (that) he caught
na4 ge nan2 hai2 er kao3 na4 tiao2 bei4 tai1 zhua1 dao4 de yu


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## Wollongong

okay,
so na4 ge nan2 hai2 er kao3 na4 tiao2 bei4 tai1 zhua1 dao4 de yu is the understandable and 'natural' rendering of 'the boy roasted the fish that he caught? i.e - it makes sense and sounds like a normal sentence you would say in Chinese?
 
did the fact that you omitted the articles(words like 'the) in the first place mean that you don’t use them in Chinese, or was it just a mistake?
 
and just for clarification -
na4 ge - is the 'referrer' (word meaning 'the') for nan2 hai2 er - which means boy?
 (would na4 ge change if the subject of the sentence were a girl?)
 
kao3 - means 'roasted'?
 
na4 tiao2 - is the 'referrer' for fish (yu)?
 
bei4 and zhua1 dao4 means ‘caught’ and tai1 means ‘he’ – and it goes 
between bei4 and zhua1 dao4? 
 
De means ‘that? And yu means ‘fish’?
 
Is all that correct?
 
So a literal English translation would be ; 
The boy roasted the caught he that fish ?
 
Is that the right idea?

Thankyou again


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## kirsitn

_so na4 genan2 hai2 erkao3na4 tiao2bei4tai1zhua1 dao4 de yu is the understandable and 'natural' rendering of 'the boy roasted the fish that he caught? i.e - it makes sense and sounds like a normal sentence you would say in Chinese?

did the fact that you omitted the articles(words like 'the) in the first place mean that you don’t use them in Chinese, or was it just a mistake?_

I'm not a native Chinese speaker, so I can't say whether it's the most common way of saying it, but it's true that articles are not used in the same way in Chinese as in English. In general, Chinese nouns have neither definite nor plural form (with the exception of some nouns related to people, such as children, classmates, comrades etc). Demonstrative pronouns (I think that's the right linguistic term?) are however used when you need to specificy which item you're talking about: Na ge nanhai(er) = nei ge nanhai(er) = that boy, zhe ge nanhai(er) = zhei ge nanhai(er) = this boy. 

Nanhai on its own means boy. The er after nanhai is just a suffix that is often used with nouns in the north of China, but not in the south.


_(would na4 ge change if the subject of the sentence were a girl?)_

No, but the *ge* is a so called measure word which is specific for each noun, so the word after na depends on the noun. For fish the measure word is tiao, so na tiao yu = that fish. There are lots of different measure words (tiao for long, thin things, ba for things that have a handle, zhi for small animals, zhang for things which are flat etc.), but *ge* is the most common/general measure word and it can always be used as a substitute if you don't know the proper measure word for a noun.


_kao3 - means 'roasted'?_

Yes. Or rather "to roast". Verbs are not conjugated in Chinese, instead you have particles which can be used to indicate that something happened in the past if this is not obvious from the context.


_bei4 and zhua1 dao4 means ‘caught’ and tai1means ‘he’ – and it goes 
between bei4 and zhua1 dao4? _

He should be ta, not tai (just a typo). Zhuadao means caught (or rather "to catch" in the same way as above). Bei, I believe, is a passive marker. 


_De means ‘that? And yu means ‘fish’?_
Yu means fish. De is a posessive marker (na ge nanhai de yu = that boy's fish). In this case, together with the passive marker, the "bei ta zhuadao de yu" becomes "fish that was/is caught by him". 


_So a literal English translation would be ; 
Theboyroastedthecaughthethatfish ?_

My attempt at a literal English translation:

na ge nanhai(er) kao na tiao bei ta zhuadao de yu
that(the) boy roast(ed) that(the) by him caught fish


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## BODYholic

kirsitn said:


> na ge nanhai(er) kao na tiao bei ta zhuadao de yu
> that(the) boy roast(ed) that(the) by him caught fish



I agreed with your detailed explanations and translation. However, your translation carries an unusual 语气 that is not common in daily conversation. The word that made your sentence sounds atypical is "bei" (被). You are essentially putting a lot of focus on the fish. Your listener is, therefore, expecting more information of that fish in your subsequent sentences.

For normal conversation, when stressing is not necessary, it suffices to say "na ge nanhai kao na tiao ta zhuadao de yu "

Faithful translation? Yes. Then again it is still a mouthful of words and not quite colloquial.

To answer Wollongong's question,


> I*'*m curious to know how to say, in *C*hinese, the sentence


I like AVim's version
(na) nan2 hai2  kao3  ta1 zhua1 de1  yu2.


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## kirsitn

BODYholic said:


> However, your translation carries an unusual 语气 that is not common in daily conversation. The word that made your sentence sounds atypical is "bei" (被). You are essentially putting a lot of focus on the fish. Your listener is, therefore, expecting more information of that fish in your subsequent sentences.



Thanks for the explanation of the bei. I only tried to analyze AVim's second example (quoted below) and wasn't sure if my interpretation of the bei was correct. Could bei have been replaced by ba (把) in this context?



The -> na4 ge
boy -> nan2 hai2 er
roasted -> kao3
the -> na4 tiao2
fish -> yu2
(that)
he -> tai
caught -> bei zhua1 dao4


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## BODYholic

kirsitn said:


> Thanks for the explanation of the bei. I only tried to analyze AVim's second example (quoted below) and wasn't sure if my interpretation of the bei was correct. Could bei have been replaced by ba (把) in this context?



1. Yes, your interpretation of "bei" (被) as passive marker is correct. And "bei ta zhua-dao" is translated as "caught by him" or literally, "by, him, caught".

2. Of course, you may replace "bei" (被) by a direct-object marker (把).
那男孩把他捉的鱼给烤了.

As in English, voices in Chinese are also used to emphasize certain parts of a sentence.


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## samanthalee

As BODYholic has mentioned, your use of "bei4" (被) is correct.  "bei4 ta1 zhua1-dao4" is translated as "caught by him".

But you cannot replace "bei4" (被) by a direct-object marker (把) without drastic changes to the word order. And in this case, it's almost impossible to do such an exercise.

BODYholic's suggestion of "那男孩把他捉的鱼给烤了" shows the use of "ba3"(把). And it is done to move the mention of "roasted" from the front of the object ["kao3 le *yu2*" 烤了鱼]  to after the object ["ba3 *yu2* kao3 le" 把鱼烤了]. It did not replace "bei4" (被). But nevertheless "bei4" (被) disappeared from the sentence after we used "ba3"(把) because it's kind of awkward to say na4 nan2 hai2 ba3 bei4 ta1 zhua1 de1  yu2 kao3 le. (那男孩把被他捉的鱼烤了), so we choose to drop bei4" (被) since both "bei4 ta1 zhua1 de1  yu2" and "ta1 zhua1 de1  yu2" means the same, with the latter being a fragmented clause while the former can exist on its own. (just like "the fish that was caught by him" is the same as "the fish caught by him".)


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