# Native of Two Languages



## DCPaco

I sense that the people who speak Catalán aren't considered non-native of Castilian. But there are regions all over the world where there are people that are completely bilingual and bicultural (like a friend of mine from the France's French-German border). 

I'd be interested in anything related to this "phenomenon"--if you will--and I'd also like to know whether you feel that you are less able in one of the two (this isn't referring to those highly gifted individuals that acquire a second language and harness it superbly) and why? Also, what language do you think in?

I look forward to reading your responses.

Regards,

Paco


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## elroy

My first language is Arabic but I went to an American school (in Jerusalem) where the language of instruction was exclusively English (except for Arabic class ) and the vast majority of the teachers were American.  Although I did not start speaking English until the age of five (when I started school), I speak and have always spoken the language on a first-language basis.  If I did not tell you that I wasn't American, you would never guess that I wasn't.  I consider myself a native speaker of both Arabic and English.

Generally, I consider myself more competent in English.  This is because I was never educated in Arabic.  Although I am fully functional in spoken Arabic, my vocabulary - especially regarding technical and academic terminology - is significantly broader in English (so I am far better able to express myself in English).  Additionally, I went to college in the United States, and that enriched my vocabulary even more.  It is also worth noting that because of my educational background, I have never read a whole book or had to write an essay or paper of significant length in Arabic. 

On the other hand, I discovered when I was in the United States that there were some "everyday" objects and concepts that I did not know the word for in English, never having had to use it because I grew up speaking Arabic everywhere except at school.  Thankfully, however, such instances are rare and by no means frequent enough for me to consider myself more able in Arabic.

I think in English.  Occasionally, an Arabic word or phrase will come to me first, usually when it can't be expressed as precisely or concisely in English.  But I don't imagine that there's any bilingual who always thinks in the same language 100% of the time.  I would say that I think in English at least 90% of the time.  

Of course, when I'm speaking in Arabic I'm not translating from English, and vice versa.  

As I'm sure you know, this is a complex topic with a number of facets and angles.  I've tried to give you a summary of my situation, but if you have any follow-up questions do let me know (the same goes for anyone else reading this thread).


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## DCPaco

Thanks Elroy. This is very similar to my situation. Thank you for the time and effort you put into your reply.

Best regards,

Paco


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## Conrado Herrera

DCPaco said:


> I sense that the people who speak Catalán aren't considered non-native of Castilian. But there are regions all over the world where there are people that are completely bilingual and bicultural (like a friend of mine from the France's French-German border).
> 
> I'd be interested in anything related to this "phenomenon"--if you will--and I'd also like to know whether you feel that you are less able in one of the two (this isn't referring to those highly gifted individuals that acquire a second language and harness it superbly) and why? Also, what language do you think in?
> 
> I look forward to reading your responses.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Paco


 
Dear friend:
To speak two language is like to know two worlds, It is enjoy more people.
Saludos amigo catalán
Conrado


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## DCPaco

Conrado Herrera said:


> Dear friend:
> To speak two language is like to know two worlds, It is enjoy more people.
> Saludos amigo catalán
> Conrado


 
Thank you Conrado!


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## jacinta

Paco:  Here is a question for you and for anyone who is completely biligual:  

What do you consider yourself?  Are you a native of your birthplace or your place of residence? I wonder if a person can ever feel completely native of a country he was not born in.

jacinta


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## elroy

In my case the question is relatively easy to answer because although I am completely bilingual in Arabic and English I have never _lived_ in the United States (except for when I went to college) but picked up English at school.  I am also not a citizen of the United States. 

Therefore, I am undoubtedly a native Palestinian - although I do frequently find myself identifying culturally with Americans due to my heavy exposure to American culture at school.


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## Hockey13

At one point in my life I considered myself fully bilingual. Unfortunately, that was about 10 years ago. As you might imagine, though, I haven't completely lost my ability to _understand_ the language, even though my ability to construct sentences has fallen by the wayside. I used to spend every summer in southern Germany until I was about 12 or 13, and from that point until I was about 17 or 18, I did absolutely _nothing_ in German. I can understand sub-college/high school level German almost natively in that I have never had to translate it into English in my head. I can still construct many phrases that a lot of English speakers always have trouble with.

So to summarize, I feel like I snuck in a back door to the German language. I see a lot of advanced concepts in the back rooms that beginners rarely see, but the important lessons learned in the first steps tend to fail me often. For instance, I have a very difficult time with declension because as a child, I always just trailed it off at the end and said "de." This was relatively normal for uneducated children where I grew up, but clearly I never went to school there and never spent enough time there to make that stuff intuitive. I still have hope, though, that I can one day regain a near-native level of understanding after living there for some time.


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## Shlama_98

My story is very related to this but instead of 2 languages it's 3...

I was born in Iraq and my first laguage was 2 languages rather then 1, I spoke Arabic outside and Syriac at home.

Now we live in Canada and have been here for about 12 years, English has become another major language for me and I can safely say that it ranks in the same position with Syriac and Arabic because I use it a lot in my thinking.

But the way I see it is Syriac is my true native language, then English and Arabic, and as a Canadian citizen I view myself as a proud Assyrian-Canadian who's from Iraq, that's how I see it.


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## Nunty

My situation is somewhat similar to Shlama's.

I was born in Jerusalem. One of my parents was a native Israeli and the other an American immigrant. At home we spoke both those languages (Hebrew and AE), plus Yiddish. Once I started school, Hebrew became predominant and I all but lost the Yiddish.

Then, when I was a young teen we moved to the US. English became my daily language, and we spoke it at home, too, because that was how my parents wanted to facilitate the acculturization (?) of my brother and me. I stayed in the US and finished my formal education through doctorate there. Then I moved back to Israel and (what else?) opened a translation bureau. My life was lived basically in Hebrew. But wait, there's more... I am now a nun (which is a whole 'nother story and not for these forums) in a monastery where we speak French. 

I have a vaguely "foreign" accent in English, a French accent in Hebrew, an  American accent in French and hardly speak Yiddish anymore at all. My expository written skills are about equal in Hebrew and English, but certain subjects lend themselves to one or the other language. 

I don't really know what to say when asked about my native language. My _easiest_ languages are Hebrew and English, but my _language of daily life_ is French, which I speak badly.

For added fun, I am now learning Arabic. I don't have any accent at all in that language yet, unless stuttering and mumbling is an accent.


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## Hockey13

Nun-Translator said:


> For added fun, I am now learning Arabic. I don't have any accent at all in that language yet, unless stuttering and mumbling is an accent.


 
I often speak that dialect of English.


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## Conrado Herrera

Nun-Translator said:


> My situation is somewhat similar to Shlama's.
> 
> I was born in Jerusalem. One of my parents was a native Israeli and the other an American immigrant. At home we spoke both those languages (Hebrew and AE), plus Yiddish. Once I started school, Hebrew became predominant and I all but lost the Yiddish.
> 
> Then, when I was a young teen we moved to the US. English became my daily language, and we spoke it at home, too, because that was how my parents wanted to facilitate the acculturization (?) of my brother and me. I stayed in the US and finished my formal education through doctorate there. Then I moved back to Israel and (what else?) opened a translation bureau. My life was lived basically in Hebrew. But wait, there's more... I am now a nun (which is a whole 'nother story and not for these forums) in a monastery where we speak French.
> 
> I have a vaguely "foreign" accent in English, a French accent in Hebrew, an American accent in French and hardly speak Yiddish anymore at all. My expository written skills are about equal in Hebrew and English, but certain subjects lend themselves to one or the other language.
> 
> I don't really know what to say when asked about my native language. My _easiest_ languages are Hebrew and English, but my _language of daily life_ is French, which I speak badly.
> 
> For added fun, I am now learning Arabic. I don't have any accent at all in that language yet, unless stuttering and mumbling is an accent.


 
It's a pleasure, Nun-Translator
Conrado


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## DCPaco

jacinta said:


> Paco: Here is a question for you and for anyone who is completely biligual:
> 
> What do you consider yourself? Are you a native of your birthplace or your place of residence? I wonder if a person can ever feel completely native of a country he was not born in.
> 
> jacinta


 
Good question Jacinta. As you can tell from my avatar, I consider myself Mexican because I was born there. Although, I am also a U.S. Citizen and I understand the U.S. doesn't honor dual citizenship...but Mexico does. 

I think I feel more Mexican because where I grew up, in South Texas, I often felt that the culture of the Hispanics there was not my culture and I clung even more to my parent's culture. I spent all my summers in Mexico from age 8 - 18 so I really think I have a Mexican identity. (I still don't know what language I dream in.)

I love words--both in English and Spanish; so, I believe I sometimes think things in Spanish because there are certain constructs that I enjoy, but at times, I think in English for the same reason.


As for the rest of you guys that have replied to this posting, I'm glad to see that there are so many of "us" out there. I'm also glad to see that you guys didn't think twice in stating that you are native speakers of multiple languages--perhaps I'll do the same.

Take care,

Paco


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## Hutschi

Hi, 
I live in Germany, and here I have a question to a special situation. Some of the politicians say, that children from other countries living in Germany neither learn their own nor the German language properly. I do not believe this. But many people do. 

Until now, my experience was, it depends on the age, and many German children have difficulties, too.

Best regards
Bernd


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## Redisca

DCPaco said:


> I'd be interested in anything related to this "phenomenon"--if you will--and I'd also like to know whether you feel that you are less able in one of the two (this isn't referring to those highly gifted individuals that acquire a second language and harness it superbly) and why? Also, what language do you think in?


I am one of many native speakers of Russian who immigrated to the US as children or adolescents and acquired English to the point where they cannot be distinguished from native English speakers, even in fields which require a particularly strong command of the language and an expansive vocabulary (in my case, I've learned English well enough to practice law, and that, mostly in the appellate and motion area).  Here, this is neither unusual, nor believed to be limited to "superbly gifted" individuals.  

I think in Russian when I speak Russian and in English when I speak English.  My "default" language, however, is English.  When I studied in France, towards the end of my one-semester stay, I began to feel that French was replacing English as my "default".


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## elroy

DCPaco said:


> I'm also glad to see that you guys didn't think twice in stating that you are native speakers of multiple languages--perhaps I'll do the same.


 Oh, I've thought more than twice - a hundred times, perhaps.  For the longest time, I wasn't sure whether I could consider myself a native speaker of English because it isn't my first language. Yet I've come to the conclusion that it's not about the order in which you acquired a language but rather the way in which you acquired it, and the proficiency with which you speak it. 


Hutschi said:


> Hi,
> I live in Germany, and here I have a question to a special situation. Some of the politicians say, that children from other countries living in Germany neither learn their own nor the German language properly. I do not believe this. But many people do.


 This is an unfounded, nonsensical generalization that has no basis in reality. I would challenge anybody (on this forum, or elsewhere ) to prove to me that I speak "neither English nor Arabic properly." Yes, occasionally I make a mistake in one of them due to influences from the other, or I say something not very idiomatic in one language that is a direct translation from the other - but this is a common linguistic phenomenon called _interference_, and I don't think any bilingual is completely immune to it. Furthermore, as you stated native speakers occasionally make mistakes too: I don't think I necessarily make more mistakes than monolingual speakers of English or Arabic ("monolingual" in the linguistic sense of the word; foreign languages don't count); my mistakes may differ in type from those of monolingual natives, but certainly not in quantity.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator Note:  Posts discussing dual citizenship have been moved to this thread.


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## roxcyn

Due to the move, my message got moved as well, so I am splitting my message:

Moving onto topic, I think I know Spanish well, however I do commit some blunders so I am not sure if I would say that I know Spanish as well as English, but I dream in Spanish, and at times I think in Spanish.  Sometimes I will respond in Spanish if someone talks to me in English and vice versa.


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## Redisca

Hutschi said:


> Some of the politicians say, that children from other countries living in Germany neither learn their own nor the German language properly.


  Well, they are politicians, not linguists, so it's understandable that they say this nonsense to pander to their electorate.  Seriously, this is xenophobic hogwash, which has nothing to do with fact.  It is similar to what childcare "experts" in the US were saying in the 1930's -- that exposing a child to another language will cause speech problems and developmental delays due to "confusion".

In reality, research shows that children, unlike adults, can learn several languages simultaneously; and the level of command of the native language is a good indicator of how well they will acquire their second language.  Bilingual children tend to have bigger vocabularies, more advanced reading and writing skills, and better grasp of complicated grammar than monolingual children.  They are also generally better at learning additional foreign languages.


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## Hutschi

Thank you, Redisca,
I think the same. If you learn two languages as child, you will learn them properly and easily.

But the problem the politicians mention is that the children do not learn German, because they live together in groups and use their own language, for example Turkish, and they do not know their own language, becaust it will not be taught in school.  



Redisca said:


> Well, they are politicians, not linguists, so it's understandable that they say this nonsense to pander to their electorate. Seriously, this is xenophobic hogwash, which has nothing to do with fact. It is similar to what childcare "experts" in the US were saying in the 1930's -- that exposing a child to another language will cause speech problems and developmental delays due to "confusion".
> 
> In reality, research shows that children, unlike adults, can learn several languages simultaneously; and the level of command of the native language is a good indicator of how well they will acquire their second language. Bilingual children tend to have bigger vocabularies, more advanced reading and writing skills, and better grasp of complicated grammar than monolingual children. They are also generally better at learning additional foreign languages.


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## Mei

DCPaco said:


> I sense that the people who speak Catalán aren't considered non-native of Castilian. But there are regions all over the world where there are people that are completely bilingual and bicultural (like a friend of mine from the France's French-German border).



Hi all there,

What do I have to do to be "completely bilingual"? I thought I was bilingual. I'm not sure of being bicultural...  

Cheers

Mei


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## elroy

Mei said:


> What do I have to do to be "completely bilingual"? I thought I was bilingual.


 What would lead you to think otherwise?


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## Mei

elroy said:


> What would lead you to think otherwise?



The word "completly"... Can someone be not completly bilingual? I think you can be bilingual or not... but not just a little bit or so much bilingual... that's all.

Cheers

Mei


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## DCPaco

Mei said:


> The word "completly"... Can someone be not completly bilingual? I think you can be bilingual or not... but not just a little bit or so much bilingual... that's all.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mei


 
I guess many issues have been addressed here that touch the term "bilingual." I believe someone from Germany said that in Germany they believe that foreign children end up learning neither language (their mother tongue, nor the second language) well. I think in South Texas, where I grew up, quite often you will find that there are people who were born in this country but are of Hispanic ascendance and have harnessed neither language well. The Chicano movement has attempted to justify the "richness" of code switching and their "bilingualness," which I'm not sure I'm convinced of.  Also, it must be clarified that--at least in South Texas--the term "bilingual" is synonymous with Spanglish; therefore, many people who try to make a more precise distinction between the two use the term: biletrado; but it's English translation seems reductive. (I wonder if there is a movement similar to "Chicano" in Europe?--this, of course, would be material for another thread.)

I guess there are levels of competence in foreign languages, but the ability to understand two cultures (or more) and two languages (or more) and to be able to function in both of them at the academic level and at the vernacular level is a rarity. I think a huge part of this "phenomenon" are idiomatic expressions--understanding them in both languages and the ability to make a substitution of one from the other language.

Example: En casa de herrero cuchillo de palo.

Literal translation: In the home of the blacksmith there is a wooden knife.

English equivalent: The cobbler's children have no shoes.

Idiomatic expressions can be learned...but I don't think I learned them in the sense of thinking I'm going to study them--whatever it is that happened at some point in my life, I acquired this knowledge (be it from TV or Friends).


(As a side note, I once watched "Judge Christina" on a Hispanic TV channel and she used two well-known adages about dogs in Spanish and made them on horrible one...she didn't do too well in the Hispanic community, so, now she's on TV but in English. For those who understand Spanish, she said something to the effect of: "Se va a quedar como el perro de las dos tortas: no va a comer y no va a dejar comer". My mother and I laughed hysterically. It should've been "El perro de las dos tortas" or "El perro del hortelano" but not both mixed into one horrible one.)

Thanks, as always, to everyone who is further enriching this cyber-dialogue (or multilogue).


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## elroy

Mei said:


> The word "completly"... Can someone be not completly bilingual? I think you can be bilingual or not... but not just a little bit or so much bilingual... that's all.


 Ah, I see what you meant.

I think the point of including the word "completely" was to emphasize that "bilingual" here was to be understood in the linguistic sense - the way you've always understood it - a "bilingual" being someone who can use two languages with more or less the same degree of (native) fluency and ease.  There are many who use the term "bilingual" to refer loosely to someone who speaks a foreign language besides his mother tongue.

Both definitions are legitimate and useful, depending on the context - yet ambiguity could have arisen in this case had DCPaco not included the word "completely."


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## Mei

Hey DCPaco and elroy, 

I understand what you mean. I'm bilingual I learned both languages in school and I use them with family and friends but I'm not bicultural... it would be too much! 

Cheers

Mei


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## avalon2004

Both my parents are from the UK and therefore my maternal language is English, however my family moved to Spain when I was four years old which meant I became more or less a native of Spanish as well. For seven years I attended schools where I was surrounded by only Spanish speakers, thus I spoke to all my friends in Spanish. My parents, on the other hand, would always talk to me in English unless I said something first in Spanish. 
When we moved back to England in 1999, I ended up neglecting the Spanish simply because I had little use for it in the social situations I found myself in (plus I was only 11 so I was trying to fit in!) I always assumed that I would remain fluent in Spanish but when it came round to doing the A-Level (examination) in school I realised that I'd forgotten so much of what I used to know! I could read it and understand it perfectly but I was having trouble when it came to spontaneous speech. Two years later, I would class both English and Spanish as my native languages but because I rarely have contact with Spanish speakers I generally find it easier to express myself in English.


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## mauro63

elroy said:


> Oh, I've thought more than twice - a hundred times, perhaps.  For the longest time, I wasn't sure whether I could consider myself a native speaker of English because it isn't my first language. Yet I've come to the conclusion that it's not about the order in which you acquired a language but rather the way in which you acquired it, and the proficiency with which you speak it.
> This is an unfounded, nonsensical generalization that has no basis in reality. I would challenge anybody (on this forum, or elsewhere ) to prove to me that I speak "neither English nor Arabic properly." Yes, occasionally I make a mistake in one of them due to influences from the other, or I say something not very idiomatic in one language that is a direct translation from the other - but this is a common linguistic phenomenon called _interference_, and I don't think any bilingual is completely immune to it. Furthermore, as you stated native speakers occasionally make mistakes too: I don't think I necessarily make more mistakes than monolingual speakers of English or Arabic ("monolingual" in the linguistic sense of the word; foreign languages don't count); my mistakes may differ in type from those of monolingual natives, but certainly not in quantity.


 
I fully agree with El Roy about the interference phenomenon. In my case, I was born in Argentina, my parents are italian and until I was 5 I only spoke italian and piedmontese but could of course understand spanish thoroughly. Nowaday when I speak any of the three languages,in spite of my efforts  I make sometimes mistakes because I mix them up ,specially due to their simmilarity, anyway I think it is natural to happen and very difficult to avoid.


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## Nunty

This is getting to be like a self-help support group! 

It is very nice to know that so many people have the same joys and difficulties as I do, having been born into a family where three languages were spoken, one of which was used in school, another in the neighborhood, and the third on TV! 

My brethren!


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## María Madrid

jacinta said:


> Are you a native of your birthplace or your place of residence? I wonder if a person can ever feel completely native of a country he was not born in.


 
Queen Sofía of Spain was asked the same question and her reply was: "You are from the country where your children were born". (Assuming you stay in that same country)

My first reaction to this reply was surprise and disbelief, but in time I've come to understand it. I also discussed it with friends in a similar situation and they also agree with the queen. Maybe things change again when the children grow up... or not, if you have grandchildren. 

In any case that does NOT apply to my mother, who left Spain almost 30 years ago, and despite her Swedish children and grandchild her accent has become more and more Andalusian, God knows why. Saludos,


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## ernest_

DCPaco said:


> I sense that the people who speak Catalán aren't considered non-native of Castilian. But there are regions all over the world where there are people that are completely bilingual and bicultural



I speak Catalan and I consider myself non-native of Castilian. That's beacuse I learned Castilian when I was 7 or 8 years old, and not before. To be speak a language perfectly well (native level) you have to learn it phonetically, i.e. before you learn to read and write (that's probably when you are no older than 5).


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## María Madrid

ernest_ said:


> I speak Catalan and I consider myself non-native of Castilian. That's beacuse I learned Castilian when I was 7 or 8 years old, and not before. To be speak a language perfectly well (native level) you have to learn it phonetically, i.e. before you learn to read and write (that's probably when you are no older than 5).


I don't quite agree. A couple of good examples have been provided by Redisca and Avalon. And the youngest you are when you go back to the first country (like Avalon), the more likely you are to lose the new language. 

You can learn a language as your first tongue, but if you stop using it at the age of five, like you suggest the limit its, be certain that you will completely forget it in a couple of years. My best friend's daughter could speak very little Spanish but perfect Swedish... until they moved to Spain, when she was 5 years old. Swedish was completely gone in less that 2 years (the mother wasn't Swedish so she couldn't speak Swedish with her daughter). 

I have a couple of Spanish friends who moved to Sweden in their early teens and now, as adults, their Swedish is just like a native's, in fact they're more fluent in Swedish than Spanish, even if their Spanish pronunciation and gramamr are flawless. They're no spectacular exception but normal people raised with two languages. In any case, they tend to be more fluent and have a larger vocabulary in one language than another.The older you are when you stop using a language, the longer it will take you to completely forget it. The younger you are the faster you learn and forget. Of course I refer to languages that are not as similar as Catalonian and Spanish. 


But I must also admit that some individuals live in a foreign country almost as if they were in their homeland. Maybe this is what Hutschi's message refers too. They use their native language all the time, with family, friends, even at school (at least in Sweden you can get part of the classes in some foreign languages, as a support for kids not to lose their roots) so in the end you might find teens who don't really speak the new language as other equally gifted kids of the same age, who have grown up completely integrated in their new language. And that is a shame. Saludos,


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## DCPaco

ernest_ said:


> I speak Catalan and I consider myself non-native of Castilian. That's beacuse I learned Castilian when I was 7 or 8 years old, and not before. To be speak a language perfectly well (native level) you have to learn it phonetically, i.e. before you learn to read and write (that's probably when you are no older than 5).


 
I've spoken Spanish since I can remember and around the same time, I picked up English (well, maybe English came at age 3).  My parents were both educated in Mexico and at home Spanish was the only language used.  I only recently found out that my mother speaks English--it turns out that a friend of mine called my parents' house and asked for my contact information and when they reached me, I was amazed.  My friend told me that she talked to my mom for quite a bit.  Now, I was raised on the Border of the United States and Mexico and one could easily go through life there without ever having to learn English--since most of the people there have enough language of both languages to get by.  My parents thought that it was a valuable asset to be bilingual.  At school, however, I was fortunate enough to have native Anglophones teach me English (I say this because I've met many "Chicanos" that are third generation "Americans" and they can spit out a few words in table Spanish and speak English with a thick accent and I guess this comes from being taught by other Chicanos or from the bad English used by their parents).  Ever since I can recall, I've read in both languages...I spent all my summers in Mexico since I was 8 and stopped doing that at age 18.  I've always watched TV and movies in Spanish (from all over the Hispanic world)--as well as in English.  I've also always enjoyed Spanish music (and fortunately, again, I was born during the golden age of Modern Spanish music, so it wasn't the stuff my parents would've wanted me to listen to...hahaha.)

In any case, thanks to all of you guys who are participating and sharing your experiences...it is kind of like a support group...but it is more than that:  it is an introspective look at linguistic and cultural acquisition.

Best regards,
Paco


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## panjabigator

I think it is possible to be a native of two languages.  My mother is a Hindi speaker and my father is a Panjabi speaker..  They both speak the other's language as well, but it usually resulted in Hindi being the winning language.  

Result?  I speak better Hindi than Panjabi, but my Panjabi is still decent.


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## Nunty

My situation is similar to yours, panjabigator. My father was a native Hebrew speaker, my mother a native English speaker. I am quite comfortable in both languages, but have an odd "foreign" accent in both!


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## Yola

I'm from Puerto Rico and came to live in Spain maaaany years ago. I live in Catalunya, where people speak Catalan and Spanish. My husband speaks mostly Catalan, but he speaks Spanish with me. My daughters speak both languages, they speak Catalan with their father, Spanish with me, Spanish with one another, Catalan with their friends...I can speak Catalan, but everybody speaks Spanish to me because they know it's my language. We have fun at home making literal translations from both languages...and when I speak to someone that doesn't know me, I speak Catalan so I can practice. Sometimes I can't remember the language of some tv show I've watched...
If you ask my daughters which is their native language, they say both.
Saludos
Yola


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