# What a pity!



## ThomasK

Thought of words expressing regretting...  

Like 
 - DUTCH jammer (apparently referring to suffering, sorrow, but based on a pain cry, like ouch ???)
 - ITALIAN peccato (referring to sin ???)
 - GERMAN schade (referring to damage ???)
 - ENGLISH pity (sympathy ?)
 - FRENCH dommage (referring to damage, as in French)

It will be easy to list different expressions, I suppose, in different languages, but to explain them ???


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

-*SPANISH lástima* ( ¡Que lástima! = what a pity! ) is also related to a damage through the verb " lastimar" from late Latin " _blastemāre_, instead of " _blasphemāre "_ borrowed from Greek " βλασφημεῖν " , to offend, to outrage. The first meaning of an injury has weakened into something unfortunate or regrettable.
-*ARABIC **خسارة* *H'saara* also refers to the same notion of damage, the root maning " to be damaged"  Some dialects also use the word  *حرام* *Haraam* when it rather means " it's bad " , what makes it close to the Italian term. Another word is  *اسف* *  'asaf*  translated by sorrow, pain, affliction.


----------



## rygi

Polish: szkoda (pity), jaka szkoda! (what a pity!)
Other meaning "szkoda" connotes is "harm" or "damage".


----------



## ThomasK

I wondered about a Dutch variant (not Flemish) : _o jeetje_ (I believe it expresses regret). Could not imagine any meaning in it, seems like a exclamation, but the form (ay-sound and diminutive) suggest that the regret expressed is 'minor'...

*The idea of bad* might be 'the container idea' (idea, not concept, I guess). 

[_Haram_ : we are referring to the word that is used as the opposite of _halal_, like with meat, aren't we ? For a second I thought their forms were very close, phonologically]


----------



## Mahaodeh

I don't think you got the Arabic ones correctly.



J.F. de TROYES said:


> -*ARABIC **خسارة* *H'saara* also refers to the same notion of damage, the root maning " to be damaged"


 
Actually, Khasaara means "loss", not damage.



J.F. de TROYES said:


> Some dialects also use the word *حرام* *Haraam* when it rather means " it's bad " , what makes it close to the Italian term.


 
Haraam means "sin", other dialects may use خطيَّة, which also means sin.




J.F. de TROYES said:


> Another word is *اسف* *'asaf* translated by sorrow, pain, affliction.


 
آسف means "sorry", أسف, which means sorrow, is not used up to my knowledge.


----------



## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> - ITALIAN peccato (referring to sin ???)


Are you sure about that one?!



ThomasK said:


> - ENGLISH pity (sympathy ?)


Remember that in English you can also say "What a shame!"

In Portuguese, the phrase is _Que pena!_ I suppose _pena_ can be translated here as "burden", "hardship", or (less literally) "regret".


----------



## ThomasK

Italian, not quite sure, but peccatore is a sinner, that I am sure (hope I am more of a pescatore than a peccatore...) 

_What a shame_ : quite right, i suppose there are some more. 

Que pena : I suddenly think of Latin  _poena_, punishment. Incorrect ?


----------



## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> Que pena : I suddenly think of Latin  _poena_, punishment. Incorrect ?


Correct. That is the origin of _pena_, and it can still mean "punishment" or "sentence" in Portuguese, as well.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

Mahaodeh said:


> I don't think you got the Arabic ones correctly..


 
Thanks for your well qualified explanations. May I without giving offense ask some questions ?




> Actually, Khasaara means "loss", not damage.


 
You are right, the verb means "to lose" , but if it is used without object, cannot we understand it as " to deteriorate"  in some sentences?




> Haraam means "sin", other dialects may use خطيَّة, which also means sin.


 
Is it not possible to translate it into " It's a pity that" when it is used at the beginning of a sentence like " !حرام تخسر " , even though I am aware of the Arabic word being stronger and implying a moral value ?


----------



## ThomasK

From Bhagavata.org: _dhik *_ = ind., used as a prefix or as an interj. of reproach, menace or displeasure = fie! shame! out upon! what a pity! &c.
 
Anyone able to comment on this ?


----------



## kusurija

In Czech:
Jaká/(To je) škoda (associated to damage)

In Lithuanian:
Kaip gaila (associated to compassion)


----------



## ThomasK

Just wondering, K: is the _skoda_ the damage ? [Is there any link with Skoda cars ? I hope not...]

Lithuanian: where is the compassion in the expression/ phrase (in _kaip_ or in _gaila_ ?) ?


----------



## kusurija

ThomasK said:


> Just wondering, K: is the _skoda_ the damage ? [Is there any link with Skoda cars ? I hope not...]
> 
> Lithuanian: where is the compassion in the expression/ phrase (in _kaip_ or in _gaila_ ?) ?


Škoda is the family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Škoda 2-nd owner of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_Works .
Škoda as grammatical noun means damage.
Lithuanian: compassion word is _gaila._
_Kaip = how._


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks, K ! Still: what a coincidence !


----------



## Sionees

Standard Welsh: Dyna drueni!

Borrowings (half Welsh/half English): Biti garw! Dyna biti!

Pity I can't stay longer - till next time


----------



## ThomasK

Too bad you can't stay, especially because it would be interesting to learn about the meaning of the separate words, especially the one referring to regret !


----------



## Sionees

I have 14 500 words to translate for the (British) Royal Navy for Thursday morning - I will return shortly.


----------



## andlima

Outsider, regarding Italian use of "peccato" in that sense, see the aception 3b on this link...


----------



## Encolpius

Hungarian

Kár!    /same as the English car/


----------



## ThomasK

Yes, but what is '_Kàr _?

Italian : thanks, but it seems to confirm that the starting point seems to be sin. What I now think of is: we can use _zonde (sin)_ in that meaning now too, without any reference to the original meaning ('except vaguely).


----------



## andlima

Yes, ThomasK, "peccato" does mean "sin"... The use in the aception of "pity!" definitely came up as an extension of the original term...


----------



## Encolpius

ThomasK said:


> Yes, but what is '_Kàr _?


 

*Kár!* in Hungarian means What a pity!


----------



## Whodunit

English _pity _comes from Latin _pietas _(piety).

German _schade _is the Middle High German word for _Schaden _(damage).


----------



## ThomasK

You're right about pity, but strangely enough - this Fromme (pious) has turned into sympathy, or something the like, or no, it need not be that strange.


----------



## Pinairun

ThomasK said:


> Italian, not quite sure, but peccatore is a sinner, that I am sure (hope I am more of a pescatore than a peccatore...)
> 
> _What a shame_ : quite right, i suppose there are some more.
> 
> Que pena : I suddenly think of Latin _poena_, punishment. Incorrect ?


 

Yes, you're right: pena = poena, but it doesn't mean punishment in _¡Qué pena! ._

_¡Qué pena!_ is a very current exclamation used when we feel sad. It may be because your friend is dead or, quite simply, you've broken a soup dish.

_C'est dommage!_ en français.


----------



## ThomasK

I agree, but there must be some link, I think, between the original meaning and this use. Languages do not shift meanings just like that in general, do they ? (In some cases they do, I agree) In this case _damage, punishment, sin,_ etc. turn up too often to be coincidental. 

But I have not really read a good explanation so far, I think. Was the (judgment of) a moral failure the first cause for regret (regardless of whether we consider that justified or not) ???


----------



## Mahaodeh

J.F. de TROYES said:


> Thanks for your well qualified explanations. May I without giving offense ask some questions ?


 
You are welcome and of course you can, no offence taken. 



J.F. de TROYES said:


> You are right, the verb means "to lose" , but if it is used without object, cannot we understand it as " to deteriorate" in some sentences?


 
I'm afraid that personally, I don't understand it as damage or deterioration unless it was figuratively; without a verb it actually means loss not deterioration, as in "خَسِرَت التِجَارَةُ". I also checked a few dictionaries and found no trace of deteriorate or damage.



J.F. de TROYES said:


> Is it not possible to translate it into " It's a pity that" when it is used at the beginning of a sentence like " !حرام تخسر " , even though I am aware of the Arabic word being stronger and implying a moral value ?


 
Maybe I didn't make my point clear. What I was trying to say is that it actually means "sin", which makes it even closer to the Italian term as you mention (hence agreeing with you) since the Italian one actually means sin also. I didn't mean that it's not used in the sense of "it's a pity" becasue in fact it is in many cases.

However, I would'nt generalised about "when it is used at the begining of the sentence" becuase sometimes it comes at the begining of the sentence but it still means "sin", "forbidden" (as in حرام تشرب خمر) or even "shame [on you]" (as in حرام عليك تضرب الطفل).

On another note, I'd like to take back my previous opinion on أسَف (sorrow) because I remembered that it can be used in the sense of pity (للأسف); although I would rather translate it as "what a shame", I suppose that translating it as "what a pity" is not too far fetched.


----------



## ThomasK

_ أسَف (sorrow)/ pity (للأسف); although I would rather translate it as "what a shame", I suppose that translating it as "what a pity" is not too far fetched_

Would you be able to trace it back to a root word, Mahaodeh ?


----------



## Sionees

I think we might be onto sth here. We can say _bechod!_ in Welsh as an interjection for (What a) pity too! This is of course the vocative form of_ Pechod_ meaning 'Shame' and is derived from Latin. Note how -c(c)- in Latin is often -ch- in Welsh.

_Hwyl_


----------



## Outsider

From _peccatus_! Very interesting!


----------



## Mahaodeh

ThomasK said:


> _ أسَف (sorrow)/ pity (للأسف); although I would rather translate it as "what a shame", I suppose that translating it as "what a pity" is not too far fetched_
> 
> Would you be able to trace it back to a root word, Mahaodeh ?



 
It's derived from the verb asifa, which means "to feel deep sadness". The root 'a-s-f gives the meanings of _sadness, anger, regret, pain_ or a combination of them.
 
The reason I ruled it out first is that most of the time it's not accurate to translate it to "what a pity", it most often has the meanings of "regrettably", "unfortunately", "sadly".


----------



## 2PieRad

（真）可惜。 zhen1 ke3 xi1 [Mandarin]


----------



## ThomasK

Sadness, anger, regret, pain or a combination of them: wow, that is interesting !

Erebos, could you explain the words or ideograms ? Is there any link with the above ? Does this _regret_ phrase in Chinese refer to punishment, or sadness, or anger, or sin, or ... ?


----------



## 2PieRad

Hi Thomas,

真 (zhen1) loosely means _really, very, etc._ Using this interjection in Chinese, it's just sounds natural to add 真 for emphasis in many situations. You can also use 好 instead (hao3). Usually, it means _good_, but in this case, it would also mean _very._

可 (ke3) is a very common character that appears in many compound phrases, this being one of them. So, standing alone, you can only assign it a very general meaning, something along the lines of _to be able, can, etc.

_惜 (xi1) sort of translates into _pity/regret_. You can use 可惜 to translate the interjection and perhaps something like "it's a pity that you can't go to the movies." However, to express the explicit noun, you'll probably need to use another phrase.


----------



## jana.bo99

Slovenian: škoda

Croatian:   šteta


----------



## Nizo

In *Esperanto*, _kia domaĝo! _or _kiel domaĝe!_


----------



## Black4blue

Turkish: *Vah vah!* or *Tüh!* or *Ne yazık!*
_Vah vah_ and _tüh_ means nothing, _ne yazık_ means what a pity.


----------



## Orlin

Bulgarian: (Колко) жалко!/(Kolko) zhalko! or Язък!/yazak! (a Turcism, see above).


----------



## apmoy70

In Greek:
«Κρίμα*!»
'krima! (pity)
or
«τι κρίμα!»
ti 'krima! (what a pity)

«Κρίμα» ('krima _neuter noun_; folk. 'krimas) from the Classical «κρίμα» ('krimă _neuter noun_)-->_decision, judgement _metaph. _judicial punishment_


----------



## artico1

*Catalan*= Quina llàstima!


----------



## ThomasK

Orlin said:


> Bulgarian: (Колко) жалко!/(Kolko) zhalko! or Язък!/yazak! (a Turcism, see above).


 
Could you explain the Bulgarian word, Orlin ?


----------



## Awwal12

In *Russian* (for various situations):
какая жалость (kak*a*ya zh*a*lost') - "what a pity", more lit. "what pity"
мне жаль (mne zhal') - lit. "I feel pity", more lit. "{to} me {is} pity"
мне очень жаль (mne *o*chen' zhal') - the word "very" is added.
я сожалею (ya sozhal*e*yu) ~ "I am sorry", more lit. "I regret"
(примите) мои соболезнования ((prim*i*te) mo*i* sobol*e*znovaniya), lit. "(accept) my condolences"


----------



## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> In *Russian* (for various situations):
> какая жалость (kak*a*ya zh*a*lost') - "what a pity", more lit. "what pity"
> мне жаль (mne zhal') - lit. "I feel pity", more lit. "{to} me {is} pity"
> мне очень жаль (mne *o*chen' zhal') - the word "very" is added.
> я сожалею (ya sozhal*e*yu) ~ "I am sorry", more lit. "I regret"
> (примите) мои соболезнования ((prim*i*te) mo*i* sobol*e*znovaniya), lit. "(accept) my condolences"


 
I am just wondering, Awwal: can you still dig deeper and explain the zhal-element ? I mean: any damage, regret, involved, or does the word have some very literal meaning?


----------



## Awwal12

> I am just wondering, Awwal: can you still dig deeper and explain the zhal-element ? I mean: any damage, regret, involved, or does the word have some very literal meaning?


Well, it's a root. 
The most elementary word containing it is the verb "жалеть" (zhal*e*t'), I suppose. It means "to feel sorry, to pity; to be sorry, to regret; to spare; to grudge". The root also forms an impersonal-predicative word "жаль", /zhal'/ (an actual subject is used with it in dative, while an object, if any, in genitive; the meaning of the total construction then will be "S pities O", "S feels sorry for O"; "S spares O"; "S grudges O"). The other words can be considered as derivatives.


----------



## bibax

*žaľ* (OCS žalь, Czech žal, Slovak žiaľ) is a common Slavic word meaning pain, mostly psychical pain (sorrow). The PIE root is **gel-* (with long e), the German cognate of žal is *Qual*.

In Czech we can say *žel* (another grade of the same root) as a parenthesis. It means _unfortunately, welladay_.

Czech, Slovak and Slovene *škoda* is an old loanword from OHG _scado_ (now Schade).


----------



## ThomasK

Pain, then. How interesting (along with the link with 'Qual'). I am still amazed at the coincidence - so I hope ;-) - between the car brand and the word for 'damage'. _(Of course things have changed since VW took over, or so I suppose)_


----------



## ilocas2

ThomasK said:


> Pain, then. How interesting (and the link with 'Qual'). I am still amazed at the coincidence - so I hope ;-) - between the car brand and the word for 'damage'. _(Of course things have changed since VW took over, or so I suppose)_



Hi, in colloquial Czech the company "Škoda" is called "škodovka", so there's no confusion.

The cars produced by Škoda are called with their model names, only that models produced before Favorit are generally called "škodovka" in colloquial Czech, thus also no confusion.


----------



## ThomasK

My last question: what is the meaning of the infix -ovk- ? (Thanks)


----------



## ilocas2

It's suffix  *-ovka*. It hasn't got sense itself, but it changes meaning of words.

Example: kříž - cross, křížovka - crossword; obraz - picture, obrazovka - screen, etc.


----------



## ThomasK

I see. Seems a little amazing (cannot recognize a similar infix in D or E), but quite interesting!


----------

