# greek surname



## Katalaves

My grandfather was Greek, from Volos, as far as I know. He came to Argentina at the beginning of the twentieth century and now that I want to track down my family tree, I've leart that his and my surname, Vartalitis, must have been changed somehow when registering his arrival. Any suggestion? Thanks very much in advance!!! Katalaves.


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## ireney

Hmmm It could be either Vartalitis, or Vartalidis (Βαρταλίδης) two Greek surnames I've found while googling or any other ending really. These two seem quite probable. If you know more about your grandfather's origin we may be able to narrow down the possible endings (was he or his family for instance an immigrant from Asia Minor who just "stopped" at Volos?)

With other possible endings could be Vartalis, Vartalios ορ Vartalos (there are other Greek surname endings too but not to be found in the region of Volos usually).

My first guess however, if it has changed, would be Vartalidis for the added reason that it is the only one I can think of that one would feel any need to change in a Spanish speaking country (the others seem to "fit" Spanish quite well).

If we're talking about a more significant change such as the change of a consonant or vowel well, we are in big trouble in this case


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## anthodocheio

Hola Katalaves and welcome to the forum!

Vartalitis indeed doesn't look OK. I thought of Vartalidis as soon as I read it. Al leerlo pensé que quiciste decir Vartalidis. D como en español. En griego Βαρταλίδης.

So you are half Greek! Do you speak any Greek?

Saludos


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## Katalaves

Thanx anthodocheiro and ireney!!! At least the name didn't sound soooo strange to either one of you...that's something. I'm half Greek but unfortunately don't speak but a word in Greek. Actually, my late dad only knew one word: katalaves, and that's all... Regarding my gradpa's origins, all I can tell is that he was from Volos. If he had just stopped there or where he came from before I wouldn't know, actually, that's ecxactly what i'm trying to find out...Unfortunatelly, not speaking Greek has made my seach on line veeery dificult... Anyway, thank you very much!!!


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## Spectre scolaire

Like the famous poet Βάρναλης was from Varna (in Bulgaria) and having a name based on Turkish Varnalı, the suffix indicating that he “belonged to” that city, I thought of another Turkish name, Vardarlı, a person (originally) from Vardar. A Greek version of this name could easily encroach on the phonetics of _Vartalitis_. *Βαρδαρλιώτης doesn’t sound good, but Βαρδαριώτης does.

Why not *Βαρδαρλίδης > Βαρταλίτης ? One could elaborate phonologically on the latter, but let me first hear your reactions. I imagine there is a problem of origin here as well. I have heard many stories of diaspora Greeks of second and third generation having completely misunderstood the correct place of origin.
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## anthodocheio

I tried to find the surname Βαρδαλίδης at the telephone numbers catalogue in the internet, and I didn't find it. About the other name, Βαρταλίδης, I found one in Athens but none at Volos PLUS one entry in Google in an association of Constantinople. 

That was what Irene said about the origin. The suffix –idis indicates that someone comes from Asia Minor. No doubt that surnames ending in -idis are common almost everywhere in Greece...


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## Katalaves

Salut everybody! First of all, thank you all very much for your precious time! I soooo appreciate your answers. Spectre scolaire, thanx so much for your reflexions, I must say that they have made me think how complex tracking back my ancestors could be. I hope I haven't started too late, for time can erase all trails. I know that he departed from Volos, where he apparently lived. Another info that I can share with you is that he was Orthodox. All this was said by my father in quite a broken kind of tail...On the other hand I have always thought that the word katalaves, (however you say it in Greek), which my father did remember and kept on repeating, may help. According to my father it meant: do you understand? Apparently, his father, used it a lot mixed with his broken Spanish.  anthodocheio, I will search these names you've given me, myself, and see what I can find. Thank you all very much! katalaves


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## Spectre scolaire

The suffix –ίδης, as _ανθοδοχείο_ correctly states, indicates a person from Asia Minor – normally. There are many such suffixes indicating origin. One of the best lists I have seen to this effect, can be found in the small 80-year old _Grammatik der neugriechischen Volkssprache_ by Ioannis Kalitsunakis (Sammlung Göschen, reprint 1963!) – of all places. As far as I can remember there is no mention of any suffix –ίτης – except for names derived from placenames, f.ex. Πολίτης, a name that would correspond to Turkish İstanbullu, cf. suffix –lI (with vowel harmony) like Varnalı. 

But the best reference book for Greek surnames is the posthumous _Ta o__ικογενειακά μας ονόματα _written by the famous language reformer Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης. There is also a book dealing with _Greek surnames of Turkish origin_. It is quite comprehensive, but unfortunately it is full of mistakes. I can’t remember the name of the author. I have got neither of these books next to me for the time being.

If _Katalaves_ could possibly cough up some more information about his grandfather, I am sure this is an enigma that can be cracked.
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## Tetina

As Spectre says maybe the word "katalaves" gives some information about the origin of the grandfather. I think in this case it indicates that he *was not* from Asia Minor, that is Pontios, for in their dialect (Pontiaka) the word "katalaves" is "egriksato" (_εγρίκσατο_) meaning "did you understand it?" or "egriksesa" (εγρίκσεσα) meaning "did you understand me?". 
In my experience Pontioi have the strong tendency to keep their dialect and customs and they don't use the common greek very easily. So -especially among the family- the grandfather would speak pontiaka and not common greek. 
If we accept this thought then the possibility of _*Vartalidis*_ fakes away.

Furthermore I would agree more that the suffix -της is used to indicate the origin of some person, for example 

Volio*tis, *who is from Volos
Elladi*tis,* who is from Greece (I think especially central)
Ipeiro*tis,* who is from Ipeiros
So maybe the grandfather is -again as Spectre says- from some village called "Varnali" or something like that and which maybe is near Volos.

It's just an idea!


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## ireney

I did a bit of googling and a bit of asking around and Jana gave me a very, very good idea. Since I think it might be of Slavic origin (note: that doesn't mean he wasn't Greek so let's not get into that off topic discussion again) why not ask in the Etymology section about "Vartal"? If it is indeed of Slavic origin we'll have an extra clue.


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## Spectre scolaire

I think we should remind ourselves of two painful facts:

1) Many people who left for the New World were not the least interested in being tracked down.

This problem is “universal”. The next one is not.

2) If descendents of such people _from __Greece_ see it differently today, they are faced with an almost hopeless task. Doing genealogical research in Greece is a very frustrating endeavor. 

In most countries in Western Europe there are archives galore – in spite of all the wars! You’ll just find anybody – if you know how to conduct a search. In Greece, nobody was ever very keen on archives. A baptism was registered among the locals – but there was no law saying that it should be written down. There is an abyss in archival tradition between Catholic and Protestant countries on one side and Orthodox and Muslim countries on the other. Russia is partly an exception – especially St. Petersburg which was a cosmopolitan city with lots of Germans. As far as Jews are concerned, they had a religious obligation for archival _acribia_.

It was said in one of the deleted postings that 3 out of 4 grandparents came from (today’s) Turkey. In Turkey it is rare to find people who don’t have _at least_ one grandparent who was born outside (today’s) Turkey. This adds to the problem of a traditionally mediocre interest in archives.

Our man from Volos should (also!) be seen in this light.
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## ireney

Spectre Scolaire we are not here to do the research for Katalaves and I'm sure that if he/she has done some reasearch him/herself  (s)he will already know how the situation is in Greece and its neighbouring countries. However, as a language forum, we can do what we can to help from a linguistic point of view. 
Everything else is in Katalaves' hands.


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