# סיפורים אלה



## dukaine

There are times when I see specific things written without the ה prefix. 

בספר זה מחכים לכם נסיכות יפיפיות...
כפי שאנו עושים ברגע זה

These examples came from a Hebrew lesson conversation. At first I thought it had sonething to do with the preposition, but in one of the same lessons, a sentence started with בשיעור הזה. I've also seen a sentence start with סיפורים אלה, as I listed in the title. I see this a lot in other things I read, where the ה- is dropped.

Is there some rule about when to leave ה- off? How do I know when to drop it?


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## ranpinch

כשיש אותיות בכ"ל לפני _ה"א הידיעה משמיטים את ה"א הידיעה_


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## dukaine

ranpinch said:


> כשיש אותיות בכ"ל לפני _ה"א הידיעה משמיטים את ה"א הידיעה_


Sorry, I don't understand. My Hebrew is not quite good enough yet.


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## ranpinch

שם העצם הבא אחר *אותו*, *אותה*, *אותם*, *אותן *יכול לבוא ביידוע או שלא ביידוע, כגון 'אותו  המקום' או 'אותו מקום'.


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## ranpinch

שם העצם הבא לפני *זה, זו, אלה, אלו *יכול לבוא ביידוע או שלא ביידוע, כגון 'מקום זה' או 'המקום הזה'.


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## dukaine

ranpinch said:


> שם העצם הבא לפני *זה, זו, אלה, אלו *יכול לבוא ביידוע או שלא ביידוע, כגון 'מקום זה' או 'המקום הזה'.


I still don't understand. English, please?


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## ranpinch

Sorry but my English is not strong enough to translate Hebrew grammar of such these cases


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## origumi

_b*e*-h*a*-sefer_ is contracted to _b*a*-sefer_ (with strong _dagesh _= gemination of the s, as the the definite article _ha-_ always causes, but geminations are not realized in modern Hebrew). The definite article is still there, it changes the pronunciation (_bassefer _rather than the indefinite _besefer_), yet when written with no _niqqud _is not visible.

For _b-_, k-, _l-_ this contraction started millenniums ago. For _et _את (of the definite direct object), e.g. _et hassefer_ -> _tassefer_, the contraction is regarded as colloquial, informal.

_b*e*rega` ze_ ברגע זה has no definite article _ha-_. The alternative _b*a*rega` hazze_ ברגע הזה has _be-ha_ contracted to ba- (the _r_ of _barega`_ is not geminated as one could expect, but this is another rule).

סיפורים אלה like ברגע זה doesn't have the _ha-_ probably because זה, אלה provide the definiteness. Here too there's the alternative הסיפורים האלה.


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## dukaine

I'm still confused. I already know about not putting the ה prefix and the pronunciation changes for prepositions. I just thought the rule was that you always put ה for the noun and the adjective when the noun is definite or specific. I haven't been able to pinpoint any commonalities among the situations where I've seen it dropped. Is it okay to drop any time the adjective is demonstrative?


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## Drink

In this case it is _b*e*-sefer_, not _b*a*-sefer_, because it is _ze_ and not _ha-ze_. Things like _sefer ze_ and _sipurim ele_ (instead of _ha-sefer ha-za_ and _ha-supurim ha-ele_) originated in Mishnaic Hebrew and has been used frequently in Rabbinic literature throughout the centuries. It seems that in Modern Israeli Hebrew it is used in formal Hebrew, am I right about that?


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## dukaine

Drink said:


> It seems that in Modern Israeli Hebrew it is used in formal Hebrew, am I right about that?


In another lesson, there is a casual conversation where "in the same area" is translated "be-oto ezor". A different lesson translates "the same conversation" as "ota ha-sicha", and that lesson is a bit more formal. These lessons are done by native Israeli speakers. So confused.


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## Drink

dukaine said:


> In another lesson, there is a casual conversation where "in the same area" is translated "be-oto ezor". A different lesson translates "the same conversation" as "ota ha-sicha", and that lesson is a bit more formal. These lessons are done by native Israeli speakers. So confused.



_oto_/_ota_ is a different story, they are not demonstratives (like _ze_, _zot_/_zo_/_zu_, _ele_). I guess it's simply the other way around and _oto davar_ is casual and _oto ha-davar_ is formal.


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## ranpinch

*אותו*, *אותה*, *אותם*, *אותן זה, זו, אלה, אלו with all those you can choose if to use ה or not. *


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## dukaine

ranpinch said:


> *אותו*, *אותה*, *אותם*, *אותן זה, זו, אלה, אלו with all those you can choose if to use ה or not. *


That's easy enough. Thank you! Looking at your earlier responses, you gave me a similar example to the אותה השיחה one that I gave; you used מקום. I just couldn't understand. תודה רבה על ההתמדה שלך!


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## ranpinch




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