# hasta = desde (improperly?)



## pilipina

Sometimes in the Northwest of the US, I hear Mexicans who are being asked, "When was the last time you gave her Tylenol?" answer with "hasta".  For example, "Hasta las once".  I think that's the type of thing I hear.  I think it is a lack of education of the meaning of "hasta", meaning "improper usage", because I cannot find any grammatically correct usage of "hasta" as "desde", but it appears it is being used to say, "since 11", instead it is being said as, "up to" or "until" 11.  When I hear "hasta", I think the action has to have occured in the past, so has anyone else any commentaries?  I think I have also heard it used like this with dates, "No ha trabajado hasta diciembre".  Is this what I am hearing and is this just common, poorly grammatized usage?


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## dexterciyo

It is not _lack of education_, it is a turn of phrase to mean 'no antes de.'




> *hasta* -> *adv. t.* _Am. Cen., Ec. y Méx._ No antes de. _Cierran hasta las nueve_.



From RAE.


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## pilipina

I am sorry, but that would still be correct, as I see it, in the translation of hasta to "until"  They don't close until 9.  That is a future action.  I am referring to actions in the past.... gracias...


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## anam

"When was the last time you gave her Tylenol?" "Hasta las once". --> wrong

correct are:

"since 11", - > desde las 11
"up to" or "until" 11 -> hasta las 11


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## Bevj

You didn't by any chance hear '_Hacia_ las once? - 'around 11 o'clock'?


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## pilipina

Bevj, puede ser que oí "hacia" las once. Hmmm... I believe I have heard "hasta" before and even clarified, "Ud. dice hasta pero quiere decir desde ¿no?" and have been answered with "Sí". But thank you for that suggestion and I will be sure to listen carefully and clarify "hacia" versus "hasta". Muy agradecida.


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## jmx

This use of "hasta las once" with the meaning of "a partir de las once" is typical of Mexico, and confuses a lot Spanish speakers from other countries. I think there are a number of threads on this subject, but I can't find them now.


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## pilipina

Gracias jmartins!!!  A fin de todo, ya encontré la respuesta que estaba anticipando.  Pensaba que estaba volviendo loca!  Basically, hasta IS USED AS DESDE.  That is what I thought.  It is really a major problem when medical interpreting so I have to say "antes de" or "despues de".  Thank goodness someone confirmed this for me!!!  I will continue with my clarification of this word.


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## Fer BA

Hi Pilipina,

I'm a little lost in here.....You asked: When was the last time you gave her Tylenol?" and you have an answer saying "(I gave her Tylenol) until 11 am", right?

If this is the case I can't see where the problem is (other than not answering directly, but with a circumvent). Could you clarify this for me, please?

I wouldn't trust the "sí" at your question "Ud. dice hasta pero quiere decir desde ¿no?" I have friends that work as interpreters at some hospitals (i.e. Duke) and they told me several times that they face lots of "sí" merely because the question was not completely understood (stress, fear, who knows) or because saying "no" is very hard (and impolite) for a lot of mexicans.


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## pilipina

Fer BA, correct on cultural response being "Sí" to everything, but basically, it sounds like, "When was the last time you gave her Tylenol?" The answer in Spanish, is "Hasta las 11". The question is, the direct interpretation of "hasta las 11", to me, as an English speaker would be, "Until 11". Basically, it seems it should be "I haven't given her tylenol since 11", meaning, or "the last time was at 11". Not sure what a "circumvent" is so I would have to ask a question to your question. !Qué confusión! That's the best I can do with an explanation, as I am the one with the question... not the answer... Sorry if that muddles things up even more, but I think I got it. I think of the word "hasta" as a point of time in the past to the time stated after "hasta...". I think of "since" as a time stated to a present or future state. See my thinking process: They gave her Tylenol..............hasta............time stated (las once). That would mean that they only gave her Tylenol from sometime in the past until 11. At 11, they stopped giving her Tylenol. That is what the word "until" means, that something occurred in the past and ends at a certain point in time. For example, "I worked until 11 o'clock," means I started sometime before 11 and work ended at 11. If I say, "I have worked since 11 o'clock", that means, "I started work at 11 o'clock and will continue to work into the future sometime after 11". So, "hasta" and "desde" are opposites, and it's imperative I understand the difference between English and Spanish usage, but I think it's pretty clear in spoken context. I just have to say, "Entonces le dio Tylenol a las once, fue la última vez, ?correcto?" It's just that saying, "hasta las 11" is a part of a sentence, so, "I gave her Tylenol until 11" would be correct, not incorrect, just a different way of expressing it I guess, like us saying in English, "It's been since 11 that I gave her Tylenol", but in English more commonly we say, "I haven't given her any Tylenol since 11". So "improper usage" may be a mistaken assumption in my original question, it's just that the Spanish expression takes the opposite form as English... I think....


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## flljob

pilipina said:


> I am sorry, but that would still be correct, as I see it, in the translation of hasta to "until"  They don't close until 9.  That is a future action.  I am referring to actions in the past.... gracias...



¿_Hasta_ en lugar de _desde_? Nunca de los nuncas, cuando menos no en México.
Dexter ya comentó cuándo se usa en México diferente del resto de los países.

Saludos


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## Fer BA

OK, let's recap this as if it were in english (you're on the right track there).

You - When was the last time you gave her Tylenol?
X - (I gave her Tylenol) until 11 am - here's the _circumvent _(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/circumvent) instead of giving you a straightforward answer (i.e _the last time was at 11 am_) you get a answer to a _similar question (_i.e. _I didnt' give her Tylenol since 11 am_ or _I gave her Tylenol until 11 am_).

Into Spanish it works the same. 

You - Cuando fue la última vez que le dió Tylenol?
X - (Le di Tylenol) hasta las 11 -compare it with the construction in English.

The straightforward answer shoud have been _la última vez fua a las 11 am._

As you can see both languages use the same constructions in here. *There are (at a basic level, subtleties aside) no differences between until and hasta - since and desde.*

I guess that where you got confused is in the notion of desde/since as something _as a time stated to a present or future state, _when in English that point can be (and usually is) into the past.


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## pilipina

Good summary Fer BA, de acuerdo con todo, incluso since. I think we just state it in opposite forms. Gracias!


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## JorgeHoracio

pilipina said:


> Good summary Fer BA, de acuerdo con todo, incluso since. I think we just state it in opposite forms. Gracias!


I've been trying to find some thread discussing the alternative uses of "hasta".  I found this one. However, I think things were not quite adequately settled here.

What Fer BA says is absolutely true in Argentina, and as far as I know, also in Spain and other countries: *hasta* (in time-related contexts) is always equivalent to *until*, and *desde *to *since *(o*r from*). [I'll refer to this as sense 1 of *hasta*]

But there is a use of *hasta *in Mexico (and according to the WR dictionary, also in Colombia and Central America) that many of us find puzzling.

Using the WR example: Mexicans say "cierran hasta las nueve" meaning they do *not *close before nine! [sense 2 of *hasta*]

We in Argentina would say "No cierran hasta las nueve" or "Recién cierran a las nueve".  "Cierran hasta las nueve" is puzzling because we would normally take it to mean they open at nine.

In the case mentioned by Pilipina:

"Le di Tylenol hasta las once" should I think be intepreted as "I gave her T. until 11", which would be a perfectly normal answer for a different (but similar) question, "When did she take Tylenol?".  In this interpretation  sense 1 is used.

If we interpret it in sense 2 it would mean "I didn't give her T. until 11", which would be a very strange answer to the question. Perhaps implying that the question was not well understood.

Perhaps a good idea would be to question further: "Did you give her Tylenol after 11 o'clock?  At what time?

MY QUESTIONS:
I would like someone from Mexico to make this a little more clear, if possible.
I would also like to know from native of other countries if sense 2 is used in their country.


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## el_ochito

Jorge: 

From Venezuela: No, we don't use sense 2. I join the chorus in saying it's a _Mexicanada_


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## flljob

Le di Tylenol [desde las 8] hasta las 11. Nos ahorramos lo que está entre [].Parece que sí es una *m*exicanada (no veo por qué usar mayúscula).

Saludos


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## LhaN999

Le di Tylenol hasta las 11 is like Lo dejé en agua hasta las 6... hasta = to... Ir hasta aquí, go to here. Desde aquí, hasta allá = From here to there. No es solo una mexicanada, en argentina también se usa. Lo que sucedió fue que el tipo respondió como se le dio la gana. A veces pasa que la gente no responde lo que se le pregunta, sino que responde lo que se le da la gana, en particular cuando la pregunta le molesta.


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## duvija

People, people. Take a deep breath. Can't you see the RAE says 'Ecuador, México, Central América'?
Ok, on those lands, 'hasta' means 'no hasta' (besides the normal meaning). Hasta las 11, means they didn't give someone Tylenol until 11 o'clock.

Before accusing anyone about 'wrong' usage, Vargas Llosa uses this version all the time. And not only 'negative-hasta', but also 'negative'-'todavía'. 
(I'm sure it's in a thread because I remember writing about this 2 or 3 times). 
Fonchito: ¿Puedo leer tu diario?
Tía Julia: Todavía. (meaning 'todavía no').
I hope you don't really believe Vargas LLosa doesn't know Spanish. And if it said in many countries, there is no 'wrong' usage ever. Let's check first before believing something is a mistake. It may be a regional usage.


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## flljob

Es cierto, le di el Tylenol hasta las 11, quiere decir le empecé a dar el Tylenol a las 11.

Saludos


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## JorgeHoracio

LhaN999 said:


> Le di Tylenol hasta las 11 is like Lo dejé en agua hasta las 6... hasta = to... Ir hasta aquí, go to here. Desde aquí, hasta allá = From here to there. No es solo una mexicanada, en argentina también se usa. Lo que sucedió fue que el tipo respondió como se le dio la gana. A veces pasa que la gente no responde lo que se le pregunta, sino que responde lo que se le da la gana, en particular cuando la pregunta le molesta.



LhaN, I think you're not getting the point. You are using what I called sense 1 of *hasta*. *Hasta *meaning *to*, *up to*, *until *is the normal dictionary sense. Of course it's used in Argentina, also in Spain and many other countries.  Even in Mexico I believe (and Duvija said so here).  What seems to be used only in Mexico (and certain other countries) is *hasta *meaning *not until*.


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## duvija

JorgeHoracio said:


> LhaN, I think you're not getting the point. You are using what I called sense 1 of *hasta*. *Hasta *meaning *to*, *up to*, *until *is the normal dictionary sense. Of course it's used in Argentina, also in Spain and many other countries. Even in Mexico I believe (and Duvija said so here). What seems to be used only in Mexico (and certain other countries) is *hasta *meaning *not until*.


 

Yes, and please LhaN, read what JorgeHoracio said.
Just in case, the meaning of 'hasta' as 'to, up to, until' is everywhere, in all Sp. speaking countries.
The meaning of 'hasta' as 'not until' goes from the center of Southamerica, plus all Central America (give or take some towns). It sounds weird to us, of course, but it is what it is.


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## flljob

duvija said:


> Yes, and please LhaN, read what JorgeHoracio said.
> Just in case, the meaning of 'hasta' as 'to, up to, until' is everywhere, in all Sp. speaking countries.
> The meaning of 'hasta' as 'not until' goes from the center of Southamerica, plus all Central America (give or take some towns). It sounds weird to us, of course, but it is what it is.


 
Protesto, no nos la roben. Es una bellísima mexicanada.

Saludos


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## LhaN999

JorgeHoracio said:


> countries) is *hasta *meaning *not until*.



Ya leí en la RAE, tienes razón, me estoy desayunando dicho significado.



duvija said:


> It sounds weird to us



Very... por eso respondí lo que respondí.


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## pilipina

I am thankful to have the debate and discussion on this topic and have continued medical interpreting in Washington state in the US and can assure all of you that after much clarification, you all lent me the courage to insist on a clear answer, meaning clear to me, and yes, it was a usage issue.  Generally, Mexicans in the US are saying, "It's been since 11 that I gave her Tylenol", when they answer, "When was the last time you gave her Tylenol", with, "Hasta las 11".  Despite all the intellectual discussion, I thought I would share the "happy ending" to this story... my clients have received clarifications and proper interpretation.    Thanks to all for the interest.  Last question, since it is understood that "hasta" means "not until" or "empezando" in some contexts, has anyone seen that in any printed reference materials aside from our forum?  Maybe we'll be the new authorities on it, huh? lol


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## duvija

pilipina said:


> I am thankful to have the debate and discussion on this topic and have continued medical interpreting in Washington state in the US and can assure all of you that after much clarification, you all lent me the courage to insist on a clear answer, meaning clear to me, and yes, it was a usage issue. Generally, Mexicans in the US are saying, "It's been since 11 that I gave her Tylenol", when they answer, "When was the last time you gave her Tylenol", with, "Hasta las 11". Despite all the intellectual discussion, I thought I would share the "happy ending" to this story... my clients have received clarifications and proper interpretation.  Thanks to all for the interest. Last question, since it is understood that "hasta" means "not until" or "empezando" in some contexts, has anyone seen that in any printed reference materials aside from our forum? Maybe we'll be the new authorities on it, huh? lol


 

Sorry. Check this out. It's only the first page.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/334368

(there is/are tons of literature on this subject).


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## JorgeHoracio

Thanks, duvija, for mentioning the literature on this subject.  
It drove me to search further and I found some very interesting data. 

Since the problem, speaking strictly, is not a translation problem, I've decided to continue the discussion in the *Sólo español* forum. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=315420

However, I want to say here just a couple of things.  

For the time being, and mainly for Pilipina: I don't think it helps to think of this use of "hasta" as equivalent to "desde" or to a simple "not until" or "empezando".  Of course it includes the idea of a starting point. I may of course be wrong, but my view is that usually it is more like "only then" or "only just then" or "starting as late as".  In fact I think of it as a version of our "recién". Valid in the Cono Sur, I believe; in other regions you might get "apenas".  This perhaps will lead to other confusions since *only just now* I've learned that "recién" or "apenas" bear different meaning in different regions ...


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## chileno

No fue hasta las 11 que le empecé a dar Tylenol

Le di Tylenol (desde las 8) hasta las 11.

Así es como yo lo usaría.


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