# 'She, who would treat the stars as mere imposters'



## Mazzle

Hi,

I'm would like this phrase translated into Latin, as my boyfriend wants it engraved onto a ring for me.

'She, who would treat the stars as mere imposters...'

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot!

Mazzle x


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## Whodunit

Context would help. 

Since I don't know exactly what you mean, I'll translate your sentence as close as possible:

Quae stellas impostores meros haberet, ...

I'm not sure about your use of the subjunctive in the English sentence; I don't like it in the Latin one. By the way, the English word is "impost*o*r."


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## Flaminius

> By the way, the English word is "impost*o*r."


Impostor is the usual form I more often see but imposter is also accepted.


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## Joca

Whodunit said:


> Context would help.
> 
> Since I don't know exactly what you mean, I'll translate your sentence as close as possible:
> 
> Qua stellas impostores meros haberet, ...
> 
> I'm not sure about your use of the subjunctive in the English sentence; I don't like it in the Latin one. By the way, the English word is "impost*o*r."


 
Hi Whodunit

Wouldn't the Imperfect fit in here better?

Illa, quae stellas habebat meros fraudatores...

JC


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## Whodunit

Joca said:


> Hi Whodunit
> 
> Wouldn't the Imperfect fit in here better?


 
That's what I wasn't sure about. I'm not sure why the subjunctive was used in English, so I just translated it literally into Latin. If it is an assumption whose correctness the speaker isn't confident of, the subjunctive might work in Latin, as well.



> Illa, quae stellas habebat meros fraudatores...


 
Thanks for your version. I just realized that I forgot about the 'e' in 'quae.' I'm gonna change it instantly. By the way, do you see any difference between "fraudator" and "impostor" except for the date of their use (I think 'impostor' is Medieval Latin while 'fraudator' is older)?


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## Mazzle

Hey guys!

Thanks for all your suggestions so far.

If it helps with the context at all, it's the first line of a poem. It goes on to give a description of the 'she' in question. As the stars clause is hypothetical, I assume that is why it has been put in the subjunctive?

Mazzle x


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## Joca

Whodunit said:


> That's what I wasn't sure about. I'm not sure why the subjunctive was used in English, so I just translated it literally into Latin. If it is an assumption whose correctness the speaker isn't confident of, the subjunctive might work in Latin, as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your version. I just realized that I forgot about the 'e' in 'quae.' I'm gonna change it instantly. By the way, do you see any difference between "fraudator" and "impostor" except for the date of their use (I think 'impostor' is Medieval Latin while 'fraudator' is older)?


 
Hello:

Although English is using "would", I don't think this is a Subjunctive. It is an Imperfect. Here's another example: "When I was small, I would often go to the beach with my parents." This means that going to the beach was something you actually did very often. It is a fact, not a supposition. You often use "would" in that sense, don't you?

You could as well translate the original sentence this way: "She, who was in the habit of treating the stars ..." Isn't it an Imperfect?

As for fraudator and impostor, my small Latin dictionary doesn't include the latter, maybe because it is indeed a more recent term. 

Let's see what others have to say here.

Cheers,

JC


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## Outsider

I'd say that in this case "would treat" is a conditional, rather than an imperfect. That translates into Latin as a subjunctive, right?


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## Flaminius

Does Latin _stella_ mean both an astronomical body and a celebrity from entertainment industry?  I wonder if the English star here is used in the latter sense.


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## Mazzle

As far as I'm aware, it's implying starts as in, little twinkly things in the sky. Could you get away with using 'astra'?

x


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## Joca

Outsider said:


> I'd say that in this case "would treat" is a conditional, rather than an imperfect. That translates into Latin as a subjunctive, right?


 
If it is a Conditional in English, then you are right: it is a Subjunctive in Latin. Anyway, I think we need more context so we can make our decision.

JC


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## Outsider

Joca, if I may use Portuguese for a moment, I think the idea of the sentence is _"Ela, que trataria as próprias estrelas como meras impostoras"_. Would this convince you?


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## Lorixnt2

Mazzle said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm would like this phrase translated into Latin, as my boyfriend wants it engraved onto a ring for me.
> 
> 'She, who would treat the stars as mere imposters...'
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Mazzle x



Dear Mazzle et al.,

just my 2 cents.

Being the ring  a gift of your boyfriend and if the "would treat" stood for a conditional, I could imagine a construction with  dative and subjunctive as

_ei _(or illi) _quae stellas pro simulatoribus haberet_

Concerning stars I'd feel "fraudator" a bit reductive  and "impostor", while existing in latin, appeared only during the third century A.D. in Ulpianus.
So, not yet Medieval but not anymore aureae latinitatis.

Bye


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## Joca

Outsider said:


> Joca, if I may use Portuguese for a moment, I think the idea of the sentence is _"Ela, que trataria as próprias estrelas como meras impostoras"_. Would this convince you?


 
Yes. But why not: Ela que tratava as estrelas como meras impostoras"?


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## Outsider

Because, given the context, I think it's unlikely that the sentence refers to a concrete past habit. Rather, I think it's a figure of speech intended to describe the exceptional (or vain) character of the woman.


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## Whodunit

Flaminius said:


> Does Latin _stella_ mean both an astronomical body and a celebrity from entertainment industry? I wonder if the English star here is used in the latter sense.


 
Interesting idea. I don#t know what you would like to use for "celebrity" in Latin, because "celebritas" has so many other connotations that it makes it almost impossible to appear as a good translation of the English "celebrity".

I never thought of the meaning referring to a celebrity, but always of a celestial twinkling body.



Outsider said:


> Joca, if I may use Portuguese for a moment, I think the idea of the sentence is _"Ela, que trataria as próprias estrelas como meras impostoras"_. Would this convince you?


 
I agree that the subjunctive should be used in Latin, too. It would be helpful to have a native English speaker stepped in here to clear up the difference between "who would treat" and "who used to treat" in modern languages before we can go with a proper translation into an ancient language.


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## Lorixnt2

Whodunit said:


> Interesting idea. I don#t know what you would like to use for "celebrity" in Latin, because "celebritas" has so many other connotations that it makes it almost impossible to appear as a good translation of the English "celebrity".



As far as I remember, Whodunit, Latins didn't use the words "stella" or "sidus" to mean metaphorically a celebrity. They simply used

Vir (prae)clarus

or 

Mulier (prae)clara


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## Whodunit

Lorixn, that's one possibilty, but I actually wanted someone to confirm whether "celebritas" would be used in the sense of "vir praeclarus." It sounds like Modern Latin to me and I wouldn't expect it in one of Caesar's works.


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## Lorixnt2

Whodunit said:


> Lorixn, that's one possibilty, but I actually wanted someone to confirm whether "celebritas" would be used in the sense of "vir praeclarus." It sounds like Modern Latin to me and I wouldn't expect it in one of Caesar's works.



"Celebritas" was not unknown during the golden age Whodunit but it had a slightly different meaning from the common nowadays one. We could translate it into english with the words "attendance" or even "crowd". Cp e.g. Cicero
Off., 3, 3 in maxima celebritate vixerimus ---> we lived amidst throngs of people


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## Mazzle

Whodunit said:


> It would be helpful to have a native English speaker stepped in here to clear up the difference between "who would treat" and "who used to treat" in modern languages before we can go with a proper translation into an ancient language.



I think that the implication in the English version is that - 'she WOULD treat the stars....' ie in the future, if given the chance. rather than her being accustomed to doing it in the past, it is more a hypothetical situation, which in english would take the conditional tense. Therefore, would that translate better to a Latin subjunctive?

Mazzle


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