# Attitudes to Mail-Brides and Mail-Brides Seekers



## Setwale_Charm

A few years ago I had to work quite closely with the matters of sex trafficking and abuse of Russian and Asian women who have moved to the West through marriage. And also was writing a research papers on the popular trend of marriage agencies exploiting the fashion for foreign grooms. 
I am not against Internet acquaintances in theory, yet I was quite unplesantly surprised by the amount of really weird, sometimes clearly unhealthy people with more than dim intentions on both sides. 
There are probably quite a few people who genuinely find their "second half" but mostly this seems to be a fertile soil for people with various problems in personal life and also, as the statistic tells us, a good cover-up for pornography production and sex trafficking. 

So what is the attitude to people (mainly men, obviously) who seek women in other (usually, poorer) countries via Internet and arrange such marriages on the basis of very short previous acquaintance? Is there any sort of common public opinion or stigma in this regard? Is there a stereotype of such as people who are low-educated, unsuccessful in life, burden with personal problems? How are mail brides viewed themselves?


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## ElaineG

I've known a couple of men that have done and each of them fits into one of the two stereotypes I would have:

1) One was the stereotypical utter loser, insecure, nebbishy, unable to talk to women, or anyone for that matter. He shopped several sites and eventual bought a bride on a trip to the Ukraine. She left him after she got her green card.

2) The other was a cousin (2nd cousin, and I disown him) whose marriage broke up. He blamed his wife's career orientation and unwillingness to be a housewife and (ick) to satisfy his apparently incessant sexual needs. He got a Chinese bride, on the theory that she would be submissive and devote herself to him. He has a plan not to let her learn English so that she will be dependent on him. She is apparently a great cook and housekeeper. To me, he embodies the other stereotype I have of men who are uncomfortable with women's modern roles, and think that a more "traditional" culture will offer something different.

I don't really blame the women. A British friend of mine who was working in Estonia and who had women throwing themselves at him despite his short stature, portly build, and firmly ensconced wedding ring, says that you can really only feel sorry for them. They are poor, despondent, and feel that they only have one asset that can get them to a better life. 

Obviously, it can be awful if you end up with a first-rate jerk like my cousin. But I think that a lot of these women are resourceful, and I hope his wife will be too. 

I don't think you can compare "Internet dating" to the whole mail-order bride concept, although I suppose they are two ends of a spectrum. 

The mail-order bride thing seems to involve money changing hands -- "trip fees", "introduction fees" and the like.


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## Etcetera

A Russian friend of mine met her American husband on the Net. It's a really happy marriage. 
But I tend to think that my friend was simply very lucky. I also think that I wouldn't dare to accept a proposal from someone I know only via the Internet. However much I might like my Internet friends, I still can't say I _know_ them.

In general, the attitude toward "mail-order brides" is rather complex. On the one hand, people are pretty suspicious about "Internet" couples. On the other hand, there are still quite many offers aimed mostly on girls and women... I'm afraid that for most women, marrying an American or a Canadian is simply a means of moving to a richer and safer country.


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## Chaska Ñawi

In Canada, the mail-order husbands seem to fall into the two groups described by Elaine:  those who want a dependent, subservient wife and those who have problems with social relationships.

I am acquainted with one Russian lady who is isolated at home the entire day.  She has no family here, and will not allow herself or her offspring to make friends.  The isolation and the paranoia continually reinforce each other.  Because they are a very closed couple, I don't know much about the husband's role in the family dynamic.  

The sex slaves that escape from time to time in Toronto and Montreal seem to have been trapped by the promise of work visas and waitressing jobs, not by the mail-order bride phenomonon.


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## jabogitlu

My second cousin "mail-ordered" a bride from the Phillipines.  I wouldn't be hasty enough to say that he "has problems with social relationships," but he is quiet.  They have turned out very well together though, and she's a big part of the family.  (And her cooking is GREAT! )

My best friend (Canada) also met her fiance (USA, Alabama) on the 'Net.  So while it's probably more rare than traditional engagements, sometimes it does work out fine.  There used to be some social stigma surrounding "online dating," but that's faded quickly.


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## jinti

I have a friend who will soon be marrying a woman he met through the internet. She is Filipina; he is American (not of Filipino background). The news has been greeted by his friends and family here with skepticism, but I for one am all for it.

He's been trying for a long time to find a soulmate. He is a kind, giving person who keeps ending up with women who want to use him (and these are women already in the US -- in the neighborhood, even). He met this Filipina online, they corresponded, they worked up to phone calls, and now he's been to the Philippines twice. Last time, he flew to Manila, rode 12 hours by bus, another hour by jeepney, then hiked a couple miles through the mud to get to her family's farmhouse. A hundred or so family members came to their betrothal ceremony there. He was grilled by the elders for hours about his background, intentions, ability to give her a good life, and so forth -- and passed. He did all that and a lot more because he's found someone he truly wants to be with. 

For her part, she is educated, eminently practical, has taught abroad several times, speaks 5 languages, and gave up an application for a working visa in Canada for him. It's true that there's not much in the Philippines for her. But she had other options besides him, and chose him anyway.

So they're from opposite side of the world. So everybody sniffs when they find out his marriage plans. Not everybody meeting through the internet does so for the wrong reasons....


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## mytwolangs

If some guy can afford some overseas bride with all the hidden costs like plane tickets, then he is not struggling with finances, that is for sure. 

Myself, aside the fact that I am not rich, I would not marry someone outside my own country. As much as I am interested in a couple other cultures, I do not know them well enough to want to marry one of their women.


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## ElaineG

Googling mail-order brides, the first hit I came up with was this site:



> Do we want her to be the boss? Do we want her to put her career first? Do we want to come home to a bag of delivery food? Do we want to change everything about us that made us who we are?


 
http://www.goodwife.com/


Unfortunately, that rather tends to confirm my stereotype of the kind of "chip on their shoulder" that men who seek a mail-order bride may have.

Ugh, as Setwale mentioned, some of these agencies are really bad business: http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/051139.U.pdf


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## Sallyb36

I agree with ElaineG, the men who order mail-order brides are socially inept or cannot cope with more modern women.


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## .   1

Sallyb36 said:


> I agree with ElaineG, the men who order mail-order brides are socially inept or cannot cope with more modern women.


It is passing strange to me that people are separating these two character flaws.
I have met few men who are socially inept yet able to relate well with women and none who are able to relate well with women yet are socially inept.
I do not know anybody with a mail order bride but the concept is disturbing.
It would appear that there is a double user situation in most cases with the bloke using the bride in the hope of a relationship from nothing and the bride uses the bloke as an entrance to a free country and potentially better life.
It is possible that most such arrangements last as long as it is necessary for the bride to obtain citizinship and then she is off like a startled rabbit while the bloke licks another stamp.
I don't see any victims but I must say that it weirds me out slightly to see a huge shambling obvious social misfit with hornrimmed glasses under a baseball cap over a combover trailing a tiny hesitant young Asian wife.

.,,


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## ElaineG

> I don't see any victims


 
Actually, Setwale Charm's question prompted me to do a little legal research and I found out that the United States has special laws, and even special investigative units, to deal with this situation, based on Congressional findings that there is a higher incidence of abuse in such marriages.

It's not hard to speculate about the reasons why this might be so.  No flesh and blood woman from whatever culture can live up to some idealized vision of a "traditional" "submissive" wife.  And we may be dealing with a maladjusted segment of men to start with.

Anyway, I learned that there is such a thing in the U.S. as the "International Marriage Broker Regulation Act", which, among other things, makes such brokers responsible for investigating their (usually male) clients, including checking sex offender registries and criminal background.  

Agencies also have to inform the brides about their rights under U.S. law, including the fact that there is such a thing as a "battered spouse waiver", meaning that a woman who leaves her husband because of abuse _does not_ lose her immigration status.


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## Lusitania

I fully agree with ElaineG.

I've worked with victims of trafficking and migrant women.

These men seek relationships in which they can have power. For instants in Portugal in 1999 women victims of domestic violence would seek help after 10 to 12 years of abuse. Nowadays, it's 2 years. On another hand, the portuguese women have a difference of 10% in their salaries compared to men, are 60% of people with a degree and are financially autonomous. They are taking less abuse and taking it seriously. Like in 1999 there were around 3000 cases of domestic violence cases and nowadays it went up to 10 000. So, women are coming forward.

In the last 3/4 years the number of men looking for women, especially from portuguese speaking countries, has increased. These women are dependent on this marriage to stay in the country legally and they is a high incident of abuse and especially more violent.

The new portuguese immigration law will criminalize convenience marriage but still I think that punishing is not solving.
Women are becoming more and more empowered but many (especially) men refuse to leave the Dark Age!


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## jabogitlu

> I don't see any victims but I must say that it weirds me out slightly to see a huge shambling obvious social misfit with hornrimmed glasses under a baseball cap over a combover trailing a tiny hesitant young Asian wife.



What strange stereotypes for you to utilize.  Why in the world would these people have to be nearsighted, huge, shambling, bald, or tiny and young?

Good grief.  I think we should be able to have an intelligent discussion about the risks and the rewards without lowering ourselves to perpetuating tired old stereotypes which potentially harm good, self-reasoning people who also happen to fit that bill.


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## dificilima

jabogitlu said:


> Good grief.  I think we should be able to have an intelligent discussion about the risks and the rewards without lowering ourselves to perpetuating tired old stereotypes which potentially harm good, self-reasoning people who also happen to fit that bill.



Perhaps the description was a bit exaggerated,  but the fact remains that these men are unable to find a partner in their own culture (thus older) while the women are usually relatively attractive compared to their husbands.  This is perfectly logical in a transaction where the man pays for most of the expenses and the supply of women is higher than that of male clients.  As for harm to good people, I sincerely doubt that it comes close to the harm caused by the dysfunctional abusive relationships that too often result from these arrangements.  
I am not necessarily against arranged marriages.  As long as the expectations from both parties are clear and in accord from the start, there's no reason why such contracts cannot be successful.  The problem occurs, however, when you have a large disparity of power in a couple.  The women in these cases often have no legal, financial or social recourse when problems occur and are totally at the mercy of their husbands. There are exceptions, of course.  Older, better educated, English-speaking brides will tend to fare better, but this type of arrangement makes it too easy for certain types of predatory men to find victims.  
If it makes you feel any better we could discuss an analogous problem which is that of foreign military brides brought back to the US, particularly Koreans (about 100,000 women since the 1950s).  In those cases, the age difference is usually less, but the financial, cultural and physical imbalance remains.   Those relationships are also known to  be susceptible to unusually high rates of marital violence and abuse.


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## .   1

jabogitlu said:


> What strange stereotypes for you to utilize. Why in the world would these people have to be nearsighted, huge, shambling, bald, or tiny and young?


Wearing glasses outdoors is a sign of farsightedness and it was not the wearing of the glasses that I was referring to but rather the inappropriate choice of thick hornrimmed frames.
I chose large stature to emphasise the difference between the parties as I had chosen Asian brides as my counterpoint and most Asian brides are very neat and petite.
I give not a fig about the baldness but I was pointing to an individual so unsure of himself that he will attempt to hide his baldness with a combover and a baseball cap. In my opinion the inability to deal with baldness is a major indicator of social ineptitude.
My daughter wears glasses and I have 50% less hair on the top of my head than I once had but I will never have a combover.

Edit: I will pick up my glasses on Tuesday.

.,,


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## danielfranco

Among the regular folks down here, the Internet bride thingie is not very apparent, but if one pays attention one can see this stereotype sometimes: a middle-aged man of stilted mannerisms and very unremarkable physical attributes accompanied by a very young woman who seems quite nubile but has a very limited English proficiency.
But I wonder, with travel being so much more affordable than before and with Internet chatboards and the like, if those couples are not just regular folks who met like "pen-pals" of an electronic kind, and decided to marry?

But my darker side always wonders what kind of "deals" are made to create such a couple....

Or maybe the guy is rich beyond reckoning. Or smarter than Bill Gates. Or a spectacular lover. Or a very sensitive and attentive guy. Or he makes her laugh. Who knows?

But I think mostly we all have those suspicions in our head: did you order her through a "mail-bride service"?
If so, we hate you, you loser. And poor girl, having to attach herself to a man that has to "buy" her. That ain't right.


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## Victoria32

Setwale_Charm said:


> A few years ago I had to work quite closely with the matters of sex trafficking and abuse of Russian and Asian women who have moved to the West through marriage. And also was writing a research papers on the popular trend of marriage agencies exploiting the fashion for foreign grooms.
> I am not against Internet acquaintances in theory, yet I was quite unplesantly surprised by the amount of really weird, sometimes clearly unhealthy people with more than dim intentions on both sides.
> There are probably quite a few people who genuinely find their "second half" but mostly this seems to be a fertile soil for people with various problems in personal life and also, as the statistic tells us, a good cover-up for pornography production and sex trafficking.
> 
> So what is the attitude to people (mainly men, obviously) who seek women in other (usually, poorer) countries via Internet and arrange such marriages on the basis of very short previous acquaintance? Is there any sort of common public opinion or stigma in this regard? Is there a stereotype of such as people who are low-educated, unsuccessful in life, burden with personal problems? How are mail brides viewed themselves?


Coincidentally, a close friend of mine has just met a Russian woman on-line, and was asking my advice as to whether he should pursue the acquaintance further. He was a bit afraid of being scammed - I know he is a truly caring man, and I have no doubt that he is genuinely attached to this woman. 
He is afraid of people sneering at him and the woman and calling her 'mail order bride', but essentially, that's what she will be...
He has been on his own for a while, since breaking up with the mother of his daughter, and he is an 'innocent' - it would never cross his mind that he might be guilty of exploiting the woman! His only fault therefore, is naivete... 

Vicky


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## .   1

I think that there is a vast difference between mail-order brides and internet meeting.
Internet meeting is dangerous but I am sure that there are many success stories. People get to meet each other on the net and if they are telling the truth a real chance at a more than virtual relationship.
Mail-order brides is a different cold contractual thing often devoid of equality.

.,,


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## ElaineG

> I think that there is a vast difference between mail-order brides and internet meeting.


 
I agree.  The former usually involves an agency that takes a great deal of money for its services and may actively misrepresent reality to both parties.

I know many happy couples who have met through Internet dating, which is now the rule more than the exception in NY.


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## dificilima

Also, my impression is that in mail-order arrangements, the man pays more than the woman (often all the travel expenses) and is usually the one who initiates the relationship.  I don't think "brides" ever get to choose prospects from a selection of candidates such as a woman dating on the internet might do.  Can someone confirm that?


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## Setwale_Charm

Hi!
Thanks to all of you for your replies. But there is no need to argue. I was not asking to justify or condemn the practice. I was mainly asking about the existence of such attitudes and stereotypes in where you are in general. Do people tend to stigmatise such marriages and such brides and bridegrooms? IS the a common view of those? Do such people get in any way ostracised?


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## .   1

I do not think that it is possible to answer that question as most people involved in ordering a bride by letter are not part of any social group that would ostracise them.  This is like asking if a fish with poor social manners gets wet.

Robert


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## maxiogee

. said:


> I do not think that it is possible to answer that question as most people involved in ordering a bride by letter are not part of any social group that would ostracise them.  This is like asking if a fish with poor social manners gets wet.
> 
> Robert



Surely it is ostracism that leads them to the mail-box in the first place?
If they had any ability to cope with real people they wouldn't be writing off to PO Box xyz, would they? 

And speaking of fish - surely these guys are fish out of water when they meet shoals of real people in everyday life.


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## .   1

maxiogee said:


> Surely it is ostracism that leads them to the mail-box in the first place?
> If they had any ability to cope with real people they wouldn't be writing off to PO Box xyz, would they?
> 
> And speaking of fish - surely these guys are fish out of water when they meet shoals of real people in everyday life.


True, truer and truest.
We are all potential victims in a world of hidden menace when the guilty bury shame.

.,,


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