# Le français perd son influence ?



## xanana

Si vous regardez le forum "English-Spanish", il a 18,736 messages, presque 14,000 plus que ce forum. L'influence et l'usage du français diminuer ? Qu'en pensez-vous ?


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## CrazyFroggy

C'est simple:
Après le chinois (Mandarin) L'espagnol est la langue la plus parlée dans le monde, avant l'anglais, et bien avant le français. Et la langue des affaires étant l'anglais...
Aux US, combien d'hispaniques?
Il faut apprendre à nos enfant l'anglais, mais aussi l'espagnol et pourquoi pas le chinois!

CF


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## Kendo

CrazyFroggy said:
			
		

> C'est simple:
> Après le chinois (Mandarin) L'espagnol est la langue la plus parlée dans le monde, avant l'anglais, et bien avant le français. Et la langue des affaires étant l'anglais...
> Aux US, combien d'hispaniques?
> Il faut apprendre à nos enfant l'anglais, mais aussi l'espagnol et pourquoi pas le chinois!
> 
> CF



C'est très vrai, la francophilie est en chute libre. Même au sein des Institutions Européennes, le français qui était la seconde langue usuelle se voit de plus en plus non utilisée. Et se retrouve, à égalité avec l'allemand (à la vue de la démographie européenne ceci est somme tout logique).

La faute à qui ? 

Soyons réalistes, la langue internationnale majeure est l'anglais. 

Mais le moins que l'on puisse dire, c'est que la France est beaucoup moins combative que l'Angleterre et l'Allemagne...


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## kiolbassa

Kendo said:
			
		

> ....le français qui était la seconde langue usuelle se voit de plus en plus non utilisée.
> ...



plus on pédale vite, moins on va lentement ...? (sorry, couldn't resist it).

Truth is, the earlier we make/let kids learn English at school, the more difficult it is to get them to learn a 2nd European language (whatever that language may be). Why bother when "everyone everywhere speaks English? Switzerland is a perfect example. The kids in the German-speaking part no longer want to learn French (it's soooo difficult) which is the 2nd national language and prefer to use English to communicate with their compatriots in other language regions of the country. Problem is, the country has no anglo-saxon culture or tradition and the English that they speak is less and less like real English .... Sometimes you have to speak German to understand it! (I teach both English and French to 9th/10th year kids = 15/16/17-year olds and the comparision is horrifying!)


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## Kendo

Same think in Belgium.

58 % of Belgian speak dutch, 50 % french and 2% german.

Dutch speakers prefer english.
French speaker too.

I have two boys and choise :

- second : dutch
- third : english

They are only 8 at dutch course against more than 50 at english one ...

But here, to get a job at Brussels you need to be bilingual speaker dutch-french and english will help ...


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## kiolbassa

I thought the Flemish hated having their language referred to as Dutch? How do you say Flemish in Flemish?


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## Kendo

kiolbassa said:
			
		

> I thought the Flemish hated having their language referred to as Dutch? How do you say Flemish in Flemish?



Yes, but they speak Dutch. like Wallon, Flamish is a dialect and it defer from region to region ...

And at school it is named "Néerlandais" not "Flamand" ...


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## valerie

Do you know Claude Hagège's book *'Le souffle de la langue' * ? It is about bilinguism, the advantages bilingual children have, and how to foment a second language adquisition within the French pupil population. 

It especially advocates the early learning of another language than English, arguing that a language is much more than money and business but a way to understand and acquire a culture, and also that children will anyway learn English as they need it for business. 

I recommend this book to you, even if the last part refering to language education policies is old, now as all early language classes I know are done in English


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## CrazyFroggy

despite they are first economical partners, less and less french speak german (except east of France of course), less and less germans speak french. They understands each other speaking english.
In my job, I have to deal with 12 different countries, everything is done in english, except sometimes with Spain and Italy
Yesterday, I had a phone call in sweden, and started to speak english, after a few seconds, despite my perfect british accent...  , she started with french ! But this is an exception.

*kiolbassa said:
Truth is, the earlier we make/let kids learn English at school, the more difficult it is to get them to learn a 2nd European language...*
I'm not sure, or is it because it's english first?:
My wife is Dutch, my son is 5 years old and is bilingual dutch/french, and he started learning english without any problem. I'm very amazed to see how fast and easily the very young can learn. I think the earlier you learn a  language, the better u can learn a third or a fourth one...

CF


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## valerie

CrazyFroggy said:
			
		

> I think the earlier you learn a  language, the better u can learn a third or a fourth one...
> CF



This is theorized by the practicing teachers in the lycée français where my children learn how to read, and where most children are trilingual. They have a special class they call langues romanes, where they compare their 3 languages, and notes similarities and differencies. They say the process of learning very early 2 or more languages help develop the meta-language capacities, what you can see when your 6 year-old begins telling jokes while playing with the words. And this in turn helps a lot when learning another language


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## kiolbassa

valerie said:
			
		

> Do you know Claude Hagège's book *'Le souffle de la langue' * ? It is about bilinguism, the advantages bilingual children have, and how to foment a second language adquisition within the French pupil population.


thanks for the reference Valerie, I shall buy it.  
De toute façon, tu prêches à une convaincue: j'ai grandi avec 3 langues (EN FR IT) et ai dû apprendre une 4ème avec mon mari (il est allemand). Lorsqu'il a fallu décider dans quelles langues élever notre fille, et bien que je sois de langue anglaise, nous avons choisi le francais et l'allemand - en sachant qu'elle apprendrait de toute façon l'anglais.
Aujourd'hui elle a 12 ans et est réellement bilingue Fr-D ce qui est indispensable (mais rare) quand on vit en Suisse! Et son anglais s'améliore de jour en jour ...


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## valerie

Félicitations!


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## kiolbassa

CrazyFroggy said:
			
		

> My wife is Dutch, my son is 5 years old and is bilingual dutch/french, and he started learning english without any problem. I'm very amazed to see how fast and easily the very young can learn. I think the earlier you learn a  language, the better u can learn a third or a fourth one...
> 
> CF



I couldn't agree with you more ... (see my answer to Valerie above). Your son - and my daughter - are eager to learn English and have the bonus of already speaking 2 other Eur. languages. The problem is for those who "only" speak their native language, say French or German, then learn English as 1st foreign language in primary / secondary school. They have absolutely no motivation to learn French or German a few years later as a 2nd foreign language (everyone everywhere speaks English any way....) - they don't see the cultural advantage 'cause English is culture for them = music, blockbusters, computerese, internet etc ....


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## valerie

Xanana,

On dit: Le Français perd *son* influence

Je suppose que la règle est: devant un nom féminin commençant par une voyelle, son remplace sa. Par exemple: C'est son idée. Elle a soigné son apparence.

Mais peut-être quelqu'un nous le confirmera


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## CrazyFroggy

Yes, may be after learning english we become lazy, considering that everybody understand it?
Should we learn english after spanish, german, french, dutch an chinese?


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## kiolbassa

CrazyFroggy said:
			
		

> Yes, may be after learning english we become lazy, considering that everybody understand it?
> Should we learn english after spanish, german, french, dutch an chinese?



Let's just all do what we can to preserve Europe's linguistic and cultural diversity (the chinese can look after themselves) ... if Europe loses out to English, it won't be America's fault - it will be ours!


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## fleuriste-du-mal

As a native English speaker of Italian-Irish parents who has spent most of my life studying European languages, I'm intrigued by kiolbassa's phrase "if Europe loses out to English" ... I guess because in my mind, not only is English a European language geopolitically but also intrinsically. It represents what happens when German is raped by Norsemen and its progeny is suckled by Italians (of the Roman age), raised (and yes, taught everything it knows) by the French, cohabitates with the Spanish and the Portugues and is enough of a whore to pick up some choice bits of just about every other language on the planet. And not in a backroom Académie Française kind of way, but wantonly, for all the world to see. What really needs to happen is for the name "English" to be changed to "European," so that little island can wipe that smug look off its face.


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## OlivierG

fleuriste-du-mal said:
			
		

> As a native English speaker of Italian-Irish parents who has spent most of my life studying European languages, I'm intrigued by kiolbassa's phrase "if Europe loses out to English" ... I guess because in my mind, not only is English a European language geopolitically but also intrinsically. It represents what happens when German is raped by Norsemen and its progeny is suckled by Italians (of the Roman age), raised (and yes, taught everything it knows) by the French, cohabitates with the Spanish and the Portugues and is enough of a whore to pick up some choice bits of just about every other language on the planet. And not in a backroom Académie Française kind of way, but wantonly, for all the world to see. What really needs to happen is for the name "English" to be changed to "European," so that little island can wipe that smug look off its face.


 
Isn't "modeste" your second name ?
Any european language has been influenced by its neighbour's. But none can claim to be THE European language.


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## valerie

I guess the brits may raise some objections to that ...


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## fleuriste-du-mal

I'm not modest or immodest, just realistic, which means I'm also not defensive. Still, if you think "influenced by its neighbours" describes what the English language has gone through in the past millenium then you don't know much about English. If English had only been 'influenced' by the French it would be Dutch. Franglais is NOTHING compared to what happened to English during the Norman period. Well it's nothing YET. We'll see what happens. I hope French survives another thousand years. I love the French language. But everyone on this forum, I would hope, as people who move between one language and another, understands that a language is a tool of communication, and that the only really important thing is what is communicated. How people interact is more important than what language they do it in, and via what technology. As for "THE European language"? Considering how relatively young the whole concept of Europe is, as a collective entity and not just a land mass, that will sort itself out in time.


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## kiolbassa

fleuriste-du-mal said:
			
		

> As a native English speaker of Italian-Irish parents who has spent most of my life studying European languages, I'm intrigued by kiolbassa's phrase "if Europe loses out to English" ... .



"If Europe loses out to English" : in the context, it was shorthand for my plea in favour of European cultural and linguistic diversity and against the side-lining of several languages by an increasingly ubiquitous English-based "internationalese". I'm all in favour of encouraging communication, but if the whole of Europe learns English as a 2nd and only foreign language then the teaching of other European languages - and the cultural values they embody - will soon disappear and your "European" will be no more than an English-based Esperanto. As a European, and an English native speaker, I have no quarrel with this most extraordinary and versatile of European languages but sincerely hope that it will never become your "European".

PS On the evolution of languages esp. English, may I recommend an indispensable book (which as a life long studier of languages I am sure you know) "The Language Instinct" by Steven Pinker.


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## valerie

As a daily practitioner of European English (the English spoken by all Europeans except natives), I can see how poor a language it is, especially when reading jokes in English on this forum  . 

I am not very worried about English replacing all other European languages. Our learning capacities, and our motivations to learn and have our children learn English are not sufficient, we probably will be able to get an acceptable accent, and know 10 % of a native speaker vocabulary, and that for 5 % of the population?  (I would need serious experts in stadistics, here)

What we have to care about is that the other languages stay creative, adapt to new concepts or technologies, keep expressing fundamental human behaviours, feeling, thinking


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## valerie

kiolbassa,

I googled to get information of the book of Pinker, and came across a comentary of the French edition, which frightened me. I have no linguistic  nor neurologic nor psychanalitic background, I'm just an amateur of language, do you think I have any chance to go further than page 2?


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## fleuriste-du-mal

I hope no one thinks I'm not firmly in favor of diversity: linguistic, cultural, bio-, you name it. I wish you luck in staying the tide. And as for the real thrust of this thread, I do see the dilema. If I were a student in Germany I would study English for business and Italian for fun. If it weren't for the poetry I doubt I'd want to study French at all.
I guess I was being a bit defensive. It's like having loud and obnoxious parents. It's OK for you to be ashamed of them but it still hurts when they're ridiculed publicly. And honestly I was bothered by the notion of English being something other-than-European. The same way I'm bothered when someone suggests something man-made is unnatural, as though mankind were not a part of nature.
And thank you for the recommendation. I had given up reading books "about language" a long time ago, when the semioticians had made such a colossal bore of it all, but I will check it out.


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## kiolbassa

valerie said:
			
		

> kiolbassa,
> 
> I googled to get information of the book of Pinker, and came across a comentary of the French edition, which frightened me. I have no linguistic  nor neurologic nor psychanalitic background, I'm just an amateur of language, do you think I have any chance to go further than page 2?



the first half is absolutely fascinating and totally accessible . the second half is rather more obscure!
Here's another one for you: Living in Metaphors ... quite a bit more accessible (I have to check the authors and get back to you if you can't find them)
bye


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## Silvia

xanana: This is an American site, that explains why the most used languages are English and Spanish.
CrazyFroggy: I agree with you.
Valerie: I agree with you, too. Last week I found an interesting article, have a look at it, if you like:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3739690.stm
Fleuriste-du-mal: I found what you said very very interesting. When you want to learn some Italian for fun, just let me know  

Personally, I think the international language - or the main language as you wish - is the language of business, and you will agree that means the English language. I'm not going to discourse on whether that is right or wrong, but no doubt that's a matter of fact. Either for business or for pleasure I've been in touch with almost any country all over Europe and, besides Eastern Europe, the only narrow-minded country is France. I said besides Eastern Europe not because I think they are narrow-minded, but just because their opening of the borders is pretty recent. And when I talk about narrow-mindedness I think of the countermeasures France took not to be overwhelmed by the English or English speakers's culture. The French are so afraid of losing their identity not to let any English word enter their vocabulary at the risk of getting ridiculous when not even absurd. That's when - for instance - email becomes courrier électronique, but I could go on and on. Things work when they get easier rather than when they get more difficult. And anyway, basing myself on my own experience, among Western European Countries, France is the only country where, for business, people only speak French. Luckily I also speak French and German, and some other self-taught foreign languages.
I didn't say everything I had to say about the subject, but since this is not the Cultural Issues Forum, I guess I said enough!

P.S.: For any French who got upset at my words, please take it easy. Be sure my comment was not meant to criticize your culture, rather, the attitude towards other cultures.


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## OlivierG

Despite my efforts, I do not understand why a French speaking about "courrier électronique" instead of "electronic mail" can be a proof of his narrow-mindedness.

And if speaking about a "narrow-minded country" is not a criticism about its culture, then what is it ?

Yes, French people (including myself) prefer, when possible, using a French, comprehensible word instead of an English one. We use "ordinateur" instead of "computer", and so what? Why would it be considered as absurd or ridiculous?
Will it be a source of laugh when we pronounce an English word with a French accent too? And then? Will it be funny if we continue to use French at school, then at home?


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## Silvia

The problem is not about using French words instead of English words. I mean one can even be creative... rather I guess the perception other people have is a steadfast rejection about anything non French. I hope that was clear enough. I think cultures can coexist and mix together. History taught us that is possible.
Let me add that, as regards foreign words, we have the opposite problem in Italy! We have tons of them and people use them without even knowing what they mean! Now, THAT is funny!


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## quehuong

I don't think the popularity of the French language has been diminished greatly.  As far as I know, its power and influence still lively remain in many sectors and countries.  Of course, it's no longer "the most widely studied language" nowadays, and I don't think it will ever be what it used to be.  It's extremely rare for a language to regain its influence once it has lost it.  Wasn't Latin "the language" for quite some time?  I just hope that French will never become a dead language like Latin.  I always vote for the preservation of languages and their dialects, and I think the French are doing a very good job at keeping their language alive and healthy.

Linguists and anthropologists say that French and Spanish and Italian are sisters, and these three languages are cousins of English, German, and Norse........These languages among many other European languages + Sanskrit are Indo-European.  All of these languages have the same "mother".  I can't see why some are really afraid to be influenced by their "sisters".  I must criticize those who think that French was pure (Like Latin was pure! Yeah, right!) and should remain pure.  No one single language was, is, and will ever be pure!

The English lexicon contains an abundance of French words, and we, English speakers, are very happy to use them (almost) daily!  

===============================================

French lives in English!


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## ishatar

About "ordinateur" and "computeur": they say that it's IBM France that chose to make up this term so that their product doesn't sound like the two worst French words you can hear, "con" and "pute".
Personally I have nothing against English words in our language, but they break the French orthography. It's a shame. We may have curious ways to write some sounds, but at least "ein" is always "ein", "an" is always "an", "ou" is always "ou". It's not like English, a language that has forgotten the very concept of logic in spelling. 

Fleuriste-du-mal, you're so right! A Dutch once told me that she could understand 50% of Old English texts just because of her own language. It's funny to imagine that America could have spoken a Dutch dialect in a parallel world.


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## quehuong

ishatar said:
			
		

> Personally I have nothing against English words in our language, but they break the French orthography. It's a shame. We may have curious ways to write some sounds, but at least "ein" is always "ein", "an" is always "an", "ou" is always "ou". It's not like English, a language that has forgotten the very concept of logic in spelling.



Hmm...I have to disagree with you on this.


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## fleuriste-du-mal

ishatar said:
			
		

> About "ordinateur" and "computeur": they say that it's IBM France that chose to make up this term so that their product doesn't sound like the two worst French words you can hear, "con" and "pute"..



Reminds me of when Ford Motor Company belatedly discovered it was a bad idea to introduce a car called a Nova in a Spanish-speaking country. (no va = won't go)



			
				ishatar said:
			
		

> Personally I have nothing against English words in our language, but they break the French orthography. It's a shame. We may have curious ways to write some sounds, but at least "ein" is always "ein", "an" is always "an", "ou" is always "ou". It's not like English, a language that has forgotten the very concept of logic in spelling. .



The vagaries of English orthography are part and parcel of its creole nature. Our spelling makes perfect sense if you master the philologies of a half-dozen or so languages, including all the late-middle period vowel shifts as well as all the regional niceties that teach when it's woodpecker and when it's peckerwood. Then it's a piece of cake!



			
				ishatar said:
			
		

> Fleuriste-du-mal, you're so right! A Dutch once told me that she could understand 50% of Old English texts just because of her own language. It's funny to imagine that America could have spoken a Dutch dialect in a parallel world.



In this parallel world I'll assume Peter Stuvesant and his guild-fellows decide it might be worth hanging on to New Amsterdam after all. The British colonies to its north and south cannot connect and grow into a critical cultural mass. North America remains dotted with small scattered colonies from France, Holland, Spain, Portugal and Britain. No influence becomes predominant and instead of the US you end up with something that looks more like 19th century Africa.

A very different world. If only there weren't the spectre of that world perhaps having entered into a Thousand Year Reich. That so takes the fun out of all that, doesn't it?


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## Lucas

silviap said:
			
		

> when I talk about narrow-mindedness I think of the countermeasures France took not to be overwhelmed by the English or English speakers's culture. The French are so afraid of losing their identity not to let any English word enter their vocabulary at the risk of getting ridiculous when not even absurd. That's when - for instance - email becomes courrier électronique, but I could go on and on.
> (...)
> basing myself on my own experience, among Western European Countries, France is the only country where, for business, people only speak French.
> (...)
> Be sure my comment was not meant to criticize your culture, rather, the attitude towards other cultures.



I don't think we reject foreign cultures. The countermeasures were made because we are overwhelmed by a large amount of (sub)cultural products from the States (I say subcultural because we don't get only the best part of, say, the film industry). Other cultures, less overwhelming, are not rejected. Also note that young people, very inclined to herding behaviours, don't reject it at all, and even take it as their culture (and ignore, say, Les Fables de La Fontaine).

I think that English words also tend to replace French ones in some environments. As an example, I'm a scientist and everyone has to read and write in scientific English. So much that they forgot their own language. They would use « accurate » as-is in a French sentence, being unable to find the accurate French word. Or would use false friends, saying for instance : _son comportement est relevant_ !!! All this is extremely bad, and not only from my narrow-minded point of view : my native-English thesis advisor hates to use English words when writing a paper in French (which is, as I said, pretty rare).

As for business, we heard about French companies where, when executives meet (how do you say _conseil d'administration_), they speak English in spite of everyone being French !


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## valerie

fleuriste-du-mal said:
			
		

> A very different world. If only there weren't the spectre of that world perhaps having entered into a Thousand Year *Reich*. That so takes the fun out of all that, doesn't it?


 (underlining is mine)


I think it's very tactless from you to use once again the argument. It was very fashionable last year, but now thnigs have been smoothed on both sides. I do not know if you have ever heard of French - German reconciliation, which is something that has been taken very seriously (not like some peace promoting war here around), and has proven very effective.
It is not fair at all to suppose reiches would survive in any parallel worlds of yours, and more when no German is here to discuss this further with you.

You, Savior of the world, do you think its the best moment to show off?


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## semiller

Kendo said:
			
		

> C'est très vrai, la francophilie est en chute libre. Même au sein des Institutions Européennes, le français qui était la seconde langue usuelle se voit de plus en plus non utilisée. Et se retrouve, à égalité avec l'allemand (à la vue de la démographie européenne ceci est somme tout logique).
> 
> La faute à qui ?
> 
> Soyons réalistes, la langue internationnale majeure est l'anglais.
> 
> Mais le moins que l'on puisse dire, c'est que la France est beaucoup moins combative que l'Angleterre et l'Allemagne...




Quick question.  How would you translate the sentence from above?:  " . . . la francophilie est en chute libre."  Would it translate something like, "The French speaking world is falling."  Merci d'avance.


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## kiolbassa

careful not to confuse francoPHILIE with francoPHONIE (I shall not insult anybody by explaining the difference...) 

La francophonie est en chute libre means French as a native language is in free fall. (If you speak French as a foreign language you are not really "francophone").
La francophilie est en chute libre means Francophilia (the love of France and all things French - including, but not only, the French language) is plummeting.
hope that helps.


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## valerie

kiolbassa said:
			
		

> (If you speak French as a foreign language you are not really "francophone").



I'm not sure, it is perhaps the case in Europe where monolinguism is the norm, or in specifically in Switzerland, where francophone might be something more than speaking French,  but there are places in the world where being francophone (knowing how to speak French) is not incompatible with having other(s) native language(s), think of Africa for example


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## kiolbassa

Valérie, tout à fait d'accord. But to be francophone, a country/region must have French as an official language AND have a majority of the population that speaks it as a native or near-native language. The Swiss-Germans may (mostly they don't however) speak French, they are still not francophone. Neither, to the best of my knowledge are the Flamands. Belgium is regarded as francophone because, if I am not mistaken, French is the language spoken by the majority; Switzerland is multilingual, but only the Romandie-part is francophone even though French is an official language throughout the country (but is spoken by a minority...).
I have now called on my Hachette for help:
francophone: dont le francais est la langue maternelle ou officielle.

interesting nuances ....


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## valerie

La base de donnée de l'académie française ne spécifie pas langue *maternelle*, mais les exemples vont dans ton sens:


atilf.atif.fr
FRANCOPHONE, adj. et subst.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FRANCOPHONE, adj. et subst.
(Celui, celle) qui parle le français. Avec Murat, Gérard de Nerval est, de tous les francophones, celui qui a le mieux occupé Naples (LARBAUD, Journal, 1932, p. 265).
 [En parlant d'une collectivité] Dont la langue officielle ou dominante est le français. Les pays francophones d'Europe et d'Afrique (Agences presse, 1962, p. 4).
Prononc. : []. Étymol. et Hist. [Av. 1900 trad. J. Deniker's Races of Man, iii, 508 ds NED Suppl.2 : In Canada 2/3 of the white population are Anglophones, and the rest Francophones]; 1932 (Lar. 20e). Composé des élém. franco-* et -phone*. Fréq. abs. littér. : 5.
DÉR. Francophonie, subst. fém. Ensemble de ceux qui parlent français; plus partic., ensemble des pays de langue française. Gabriel (...) pérorait devant une assemblée dont l'attention semblait d'autant plus grande que la francophonie y était plus dispersée (QUENEAU, Zazie, 1959, p. 155). L. V., unanimement apprécié dans toute la francophonie par l'originalité et la valeur de ses reportages (VR, 7 sept. 1969 ds GILB. 1971).  [].  1re attest. 1959 (QUENEAU, loc. cit.); du rad. de francophone, suff. -ie*.
BBG.  DUB. Dér. 1962, p. 70.  HENRY (A.). Francophonie et francité autrefois... aujourd'hui. In : H. (A.). Automne. Paris-Gembloux, 1977, pp. 331-353 (s.v. francophonie).  PIRON (M.). Francophonie et francité. B. de l'Ac. royale de lang. et de litt. fr. 1970, t. 48, pp. 136-151 (s.v. francophonie).


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## Kendo

valerie said:
			
		

> Do you know Claude Hagège's book *'Le souffle de la langue' * ? It is about bilinguism, the advantages bilingual children have, and how to foment a second language adquisition within the French pupil population.
> 
> It especially advocates the early learning of another language than English, arguing that a language is much more than money and business but a way to understand and acquire a culture, and also that children will anyway learn English as they need it for business.
> 
> I recommend this book to you, even if the last part refering to language education policies is old, now as all early language classes I know are done in English



We pay private dutch courses for our two childrens at 9 years old, because it don't start before 12 yeras old.

A pity for a country with 3 officials languages !


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## kiolbassa

j'adore le terme "francité" - 
Je suis heureuse d'apprendre que je peux (continuer à) me considérer à la fois francophone (= langue dominante) et anglophone (=langue maternelle)!
We are on the same wave-length so we can agree to differ!


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## fleuriste-du-mal

valerie said:
			
		

> I think it's very tactless from you to use once again the argument. It was very fashionable last year, but now thnigs have been smoothed on both sides. I do not know if you have ever heard of French - German reconciliation, which is something that has been taken very seriously (not like some peace promoting war here around), and has proven very effective.
> It is not fair at all to suppose reiches would survive in any parallel worlds of yours, and more when no German is here to discuss this further with you.
> 
> You, Savior of the world, do you think its the best moment to show off?



I think that was entirely uncalled for. Where on earth in anything I wrote did I say anything about being a Saviour of the world? A comment I had made about English and Dutch had prompted a comment about an alternate history in which English was more Dutch-like (less French), which prompted me to imagine changes in history which might have occurred which would have changed the current state of world affairs and would have made this tenet of this thread--- the threat to francophonie of the English/American-driven world economy--- unnecessary. After I had posted it I chided myself for having missed what is probably the most obvious one: if Napoleon hadn't sold Louisiana to Jefferson we would not be having this discussion. As anyone who's ever seen a time-travel movie knows, the danger in rewriting history is that one never knows what the ramifications would be. Change one thing, what else changes? The writer in me wanted to make that point quickly and allusively. It's so much more fun that way than having to spell it out, like I was talking to a five-year-old. That you would boil that down to "if it weren't for us Yanks you'd all be Nazis" is really sad. I thought I was talking to more worldly, more exceptional people here. Maybe this really is just a waste of my time.


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## kiolbassa

fleuriste and valérie:
since I live in Switzerland, which is neutral as we all know, I feel it is my duty to tell both of you to "cool it" "du calme, voyons"
This is no place to continue the US-French mésentente!

(and please, let's not go there ....)


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## OlivierG

Well, I think it would be time to stop arguing on this thread now.
Does the topic deserve anybody to get angry against somebody else, or to appear rude or offending ?
I do not think so. Please remember, all, this is a friendly forum about French/English translation, and everybody here is willing to help each other, whatever the country both live in.

It was just my two cents opinion.


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## valerie

I agree with you,  Kiolbassa and Olivier, I am here because I love languages and because I like the type of collaboration usual here. Now I'll say two words to the other participant and shall keep silent forever (on the subject  )

Fleuriste, I'm alleviated you noticed I am not an exceptional person, and I hope you won't lose your time anymore, talking with such provincial persons for whom any allusions to 'a Thousand Year Reich' evokes the Nazis time.  Just take into account what words mean. This may help you in your glorious future as a writer.


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## fleuriste-du-mal

That's it. I'm outta here.

That's ok Valerie. Le Pen still loves you.


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## Tomasoria

Amazing issue...biliguism, triliguism. let me tell you my experience about this. I was working for the E.U commission some years ago, people at office were mostly dutch, germans and english on the 1st floor...I spoke french to then (indeed...I was always better than them), 2nd floor was basically french, belgium, italians, greeks and spaniards...these latter were country-fellow people so we chose the most radical spanish slang. Whenever I met a french-speaker I "assaulted" him/her in english (I was better too) and Italians....uuuhhhh ¡¡¡ I just needed to use my hands to communicate.

   That was a real plurilingual experience that gave way to many misunderstandings, but was really funny.

     I do have my opinion about Switzerland, Belgium and even Spain (remember there four languages coexisting in Spain nowdays) but I'll leave for a better time.

     And remember the saying: A person speaking 3 languages is called "trilingual", one able to speak 2 languages is called "bilingual" and the one speaking just one language is called "American"...or "british" ...I'd say.

    Cheerio


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## kiolbassa

sorry, tomasoria ... I don't get it.
esperanto humour with a dollop of cliché-stereotypes?
....................................................................
Read my .... hands.


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## Tomasoria

C'mon, C'mon...it was just simply a joke...at least it made me laugh when someone told it to me...

  Let's say that britons are less "monolingual" than americans ... (in language and mind)but still, how lucky you are to speak the "lingua franca". 

   But now, seriously, how many americans do you know able to express themselves in a language different to english?? It's the price to pay for being an empire...

    Bon après-midí lá-haut par les montagnes de centre-Europe.


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## kiolbassa

and I thought you could read "hand language" ....!
We "migrating" Europeans should be a bit more realistic about the linguistic talents of our own "non-migrating" countrymen...
Having lived a significant number of years in all of Italy, France, Germany and Switzerland, I can confirm from first-hand experience, that the non-travelling "man-in-the-street" does not speak any foreign language better than do our British and American (and Australian and New Zealand etc. etc. etc.) friends. Most anglosaxon expatriates that I know (and I know more than a few) do learn the language of their host country if they live there for a while - if they stay at home, it's kind of difficult to learn another language that you will never hear or use - 'cept spanish of course in the US given the large and growing hispanic community.
so let's not be too condescending, people in glass houses should not throw stones.
have a nice evening!


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## Benjy

the only thing worse than someone who is monolingual is someone who IS monolingual and doesnt realise it :/

"bounjour! éxcusez-moi de vous déranger, je cherche la gare.." *snip* 
"what iz it that you are wanting?"

happened so many times =[


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## jakkaro

kiolbassa said:
			
		

> plus on pédale vite, moins on va lentement ...? (sorry, couldn't resist it).
> 
> Truth is, the earlier we make/let kids learn English at school, the more difficult it is to get them to learn a 2nd European language (whatever that language may be). Why bother when "everyone everywhere speaks English? Switzerland is a perfect example. The kids in the German-speaking part no longer want to learn French (it's soooo difficult) which is the 2nd national language and prefer to use English to communicate with their compatriots in other language regions of the country. Problem is, the country has no anglo-saxon culture or tradition and the English that they speak is less and less like real English .... Sometimes you have to speak German to understand it! (I teach both English and French to 9th/10th year kids = 15/16/17-year olds and the comparision is horrifying!)



I agree. It's all a question of attitude really. I mean, if you consider English as being a means of communication one-fits-to-all, so YES, of course you get lazy and don't want to learn another language...what for? If you can talk (in theory) to anybody in the world in english?? On the other side, if you consider the english language as a language, equal to any other language, then it doesn't get a "higher" status and, as any other language in this world, is just another way of expressing oneself and getting into a certain culture and way of thinking. I can give you the example of Luxembourg: Here kids are really forced to learn 3 languages, they start at the age of 6 with french classes, the other main subjects are taught in german ( luxemburgish at the beginning so as to ease the change) and further on you learn english at the age of 14, when you already speak 2 (or 3: Latin) languages. At this point, your mind is so broadened, that it will be easy to learn any new language,as it's no longer a question if it's necesary, but you will understand that it's interesting and useful being able to comunicate with other people, NOT only in English!!


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## alice

I don't really mind if less people speaks French. It just makes us exceptional... no just kidding. I went to California, I'm now in Ireland and most of people I've met don't speak French that much but they now enough words to have fun. You don't have to be good at French to speak it cause who's the French who can say "I speak a good French"?? I can't. I'm the first to invent words when I don't know any to express what I want to. I just think that if we're able to communicate, even if it's by drawing, that's fine for me.
Alice


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## demoore

Le Français est la langue belle par excellence, la langue de l'Art, de la Culture, de la Poésie. Son apprentissage se développe énormément en Asie.
Alors vive le Français!


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