# American flap t/d [pronunciation: latter and ladder]



## L.2

Hi
how can I pronounce it as a soft d? I practise a lot and everytime it comes out exact d or exact t. Ex. bottle, better, computer
help me please


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## ms.creant

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the question, (though perhaps someone else will). Can you give us some examples of words you are trying to pronounce?


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## oiseauxlahaut

My coworkers probably think I'm crazy because I just said "better computer" over and over to try and figure out how to explain this... 
In both of those, your tongue should hit the roof of your mouth and then retreat into your mouth, almost dragging on the roof of the mouth (thus making the sound softer). With a hard T or D, it hits the roof of your mouth and goes straight down. 
I am no linguist, though.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

There is no such thing as an "American" pronunciation of anything. There are instead distinct regional pronunciations. There is no reason, though, why anyone who is trying to master English should want to sound specifically as if he came from South Carolina, or Long Island, or North Dakota, when it is obvious that he did not. If I were you, I would just pronounce a "t" as a "t" and a "d" as a "d", and no one hearing you speak will be confused about what you are trying to say.


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## JamesM

I have to say that one of the most impressive demonstrations I have ever heard of this "d"-sounding "t" was from a Scottish man who has a language podcast in Spanish. He was demonstrating the soft "r" of Spanish and comparing it to the soft "t" of Americans and the demonstration was uncannily good. It was the first time I, as an American, clearly understood this difference, since the Scottish gentleman usually pronounces his "t"s very crisply on his podcast.

After hearing them side by side, I can say now that I rarely hear any American saying the word "butter" with the same "t" sound as we use for "butt", no matter what region the American is from. It actually stands out when I do hear clearly pronounced "t"s.

I don't know that there's any way to describe it (although oiseauxlahaut has done a better job than most I've read.) It's really a process of mimicking the sound after hearing it, I believe.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

All the same, James, in the accent I heard growing up, _bottle_ was pronounced not with a "t", but with a glottal stop, but _bette_r was pronounced with neither a "t" nor a glottal stop, but with a heavy and decided "d" sound, as if it were the comparative form of "bed".  (Oh, and it was non-rhotic, too. )

The point is that one cannot assume that all Americans have the same accent, and pronounce all letters (even "t") the same way.


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## L.2

Thanks for helping
I don't try to sound anyone but 'near' native.
I think most Americans say ladder instead of later
siding instead of sitting...etc
Am I wrong?
I am practising but find it hard. This t sounds neither t nor d


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## Veraz

JamesM said:


> I have to say that one of the most impressive demonstrations I have ever heard of this "d"-sounding "t" was from a Scottish man who has a language podcast in Spanish. He was demonstrating the soft "r" of Spanish and comparing it to the soft "t" of Americans and the demonstration was uncannily good. It was the first time I, as an American, clearly understood this difference, since the Scottish gentleman usually pronounces his "t"s very crisply on his podcast



So, it’s not the same sound? They sound just the same to me. Spanish soft "r" and American intervocalic t's and d's, I mean.


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## a little edgy

Are we talking about the difference between voiced and unvoiced consonants? A good test for this is found in the words "waders" (which refers to certain types of birds and is also a name for waterproof pants worn by fishermen) and "waiters." In casual American speech, they sound the same. 

Nevertheless, to my ear, there is a very slight distinction if they are pronounced carefully, as they might be in formal speech. The "d" in "waders" is voiced more than the "t" in "waiters" in these circumstances, but the "t" is still more voiced than it would be in standard BE. 

Similarly, "butter" sounds like "budder" in casual speech, but the "t" sound is ever so slightly less voiced when "butter" is pronounced carefully (but not as unvoiced as in BE). 

Or, at least, so it sounds to me.


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## valdemar

Hi there, friends! I have seen some threads related to this topic but still I have not found any discution about the distinction between the American flap 't'  and the 'd' sound. Now that I have paid very careful attention to the way Americans utter both sounds and I can say that they are different. I don't know if it's just me, but it's weird and shocking because I always thought that the sound was the same. So I have these words: poddy, party, and potty. I suppose that for some people the distinction between poddy and potty compared with party might be clear in the first vowel: p*o*ddy (/ɒ/), p*o*tty (/ɒ/) and p*o*tty (/a:/). But also for some people the first vowel sound is the same. In any case, I would like to know how do you distinguish the difference between them, and also your appnions in general about the 't' and 'd' sounds in AmE. As always, I really appreciate all your comments.

<Valdemar's thread (here onwards) has been merged with L.2's thread (above)>


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## cyberpedant

_Some_ U.S. speakers make a distinction, others do not. And at least one other "sound"—the "glottal stop" /ʔ/—is used in my neck of the woods where one might expect to hear a /t/. The words "bottle" and "kitten" come immediately to mind. In most AE dialects it doesn't make a difference in meaning whichever sound is used, so it's not necessary to make a distinction. Meaning emerges from context.


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## Cagey

Here is a previous thread on this question: 
American flap t [pronunciation] ​<thread now merged with this one>
The American sound "t" ("d") in the word "little" 
question on "little" flap sound 

(I am afraid I am too little acquainted with the topic to know whether these answer your specific question.)


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## Forero

Just speaking for my regional accent (Arkansas):

In words like _wader_, _ladder_, and _udder_, we usually pronounce the consonant as a voiced tap/flap. It is similar to a Spanish or Italian single _r_ sound.

We often pronounce words like _waiter_, _latter_, and _utter_ with the same voiced tap/flap, but when we need to make a distinction we still use a tap/flap but we devoice it, almost as if pronouncing an  at the same time.

In the word _ninety_, the _i_ is nasalized, the _n_ disappears, and the _t_ always has the unvoiced tap/flap sound. We don't voice it, and we avoid pronouncing it with a hard _t_ because that makes it sound too much like _nineteen_.

And we don't use a hard _d_ in _t_ words. I have heard _ninety_ pronounced with a hard _d_ as if it were "9D"/"nine-dee", but not from anyone with my regional accent.


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## Elwintee

I'll always remember the way the famous American actor Alfred Lunt pronounced the phrase "my daughter Ottilie" in a play.  It sounded like "My dodder Oddily".


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## valdemar

> ...In most AE dialects it doesn't make a difference in meaning whichever sound is used, so it's not necessary to make a distinction. Meaning emerges from context.



Thanks, cyber. So, Does this means it would be alright if I do my flap 't' the same as the 'd' sound (even in the case of glottal stop)?



> Here is a previous thread on this question:...



Thanks Cagey. In fact my question arose from the first thread and now that I see it, it would have been probably better if I would just posted my question in it. <Mod note: the threads have now been merged.>  Essentialy what I was looking for was a discussion about the words poddy, party, and potty to see some pattern, probably inexistent, about how the pronunciation behaves depending on dialect or something like that in AmE (I would like to know how different people pronounce the words with or without the flap 't'), and also to know any opinion about the diferentiation of both flap 't' and 'd' in general, just like cyber just did that it is not necessary to make a distinction.


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## JustKate

I don't want to divert the thread, but I just have to point out that _poddy_ is a really unusual word. I'd never heard of it until I saw this thread, so I don't think you have to worry too much about confusing it with _potty_.


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## pob14

Merriam lists "poddy" as "chiefly dialectical" in one definition, and "chiefly Australian" in another, so that would explain why neither JustKate nor I had ever heard of it before.

In any event, if I ever do need to say "poddy," it will, I think, sound almost exactly like "potty," unless I'm really concentrating on the consonants for some reason.

"Party" is completely different, because as a rhotic speaker, I pronounce the R, and because I think the vowel is different.  Trying it now, I find my tongue farther forward on the T in "party" than in "potty," but I'm not sure how different it actually sounds.


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## MarcB

pob14 said:


> Merriam lists "poddy" as "chiefly dialectical" in one definition, and "chiefly Australian" in another, so that would explain why neither JustKate nor I had ever heard of it before.
> 
> In any event, if I ever do need to say "poddy," it will, I think, sound almost exactly like "potty," unless I'm really concentrating on the consonants for some reason.
> 
> "Party" is completely different, because as a rhotic speaker, I pronounce the R, and because I think the vowel is different.  Trying it now, I find my tongue farther forward on the T in "party" than in "potty," but I'm not sure how different it actually sounds.


I also have never heard poddy but I would pronounce the "d"s as hard "d". Potty I pronounce as either "t" or "t flap"
I also have a rhotic pronunciation so party is either "paarty" or paarty as a "t flap". So for me they represent three different sounds. Since this is about Ae I would say most Ae is rhotic and non-rhotic is a minority.


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## cyberpedant

The digital OED has this:

poddy, v. Austral. colloq.

(ˈpɒdɪ)


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## long619

<<Long's question has been appended to an ongoing collection of threads on the difference between BrE and AmE pronunciation of t as d>>

I know these words have the same pronunciation of the "t" /t/
But I have a feeling that it sounds like /d/ than /t/, weird @@
What do you think? Maybe it's just my imagination.


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## tepatria

When pronounced correctly, they all have the t sound. Of course, not all people pronounce everything correctly.


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## packtsardine

It all depends on which English dialect you're using. In American English, the /t/ does sound more like /d/, but it's not quite the same sound. To be precise, the /t/ becomes an alveolar flap.


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## Randisi.

> When pronounced correctly, they all have the t sound.



Strange thing for a Canadian to say.

North Americans pronounce the "t" in those words as a "d." The British use a "t" sound.


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## long619

Thank you all


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## natkretep

Randisi. said:


> The British use a "t" sound.


Most of the time, the /l/ is a syllabic one - in this case, the /t/ will not be aspirated. In phonetic alphabet: *ˈbatl̩  -*I don't know whether it will show in your system, there is a dot under the *l* to show that it is syllabic. (Maybe it's because of this that it sounds like a /d/?)

You can also pronounce it without a syllabic /l/ - *ˈbatəl *- in which case you have an aspirated /t/.

Of course, in some accents of BrE, you get a glottal stop instead of [t] - *ˈbaʔl̩*


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## sdgraham

Randisi. said:


> Strange thing for a Canadian to say.
> 
> North Americans pronounce the "t" in those words as a "d." The British use a "t" sound.



Certainly not this American, nor anyone in my family, with respect to this sweeping generalization.

If you go to www.forvo.com, you can hear pronunciations by native speakers all over the world, including a mapping of where the speaker lives.

(I just checked and at least one other American pronounces a clear 't.')


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## Randisi.

> Certainly not this American, nor anyone in my family, with respect to this sweeping generalization.



Sweeping generalization? No, it's a well-founded generalization based on having lived in America in many places for most of my life.

I suppose you say butter instead of budder? Letter instead of ledder?


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## long619

Randisi. said:


> Sweeping generalization? No, it's a well-founded generalization based on having lived in America in many places for most of my life.
> 
> I suppose you say butter instead of budder? Letter instead of ledder?



Those words are different, maybe only the words which include "ttle" can be pronounce /d/ instead of /t/

"budder" and "ledder" ??? If we pronouce those words like that, I presume no one would be able to understand, or perhaps, they would misunderstand.


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## Randisi.

Long619, at the risk of making a sweeping generalization, North Americans do indeed pronounce the "tt" in those words with a d sound. For instance, the word "latter" is pronounced the same as the word "ladder." We don't usually have any trouble understanding this. Context mostly removes the ambiguity.


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## sdgraham

Randisi. said:


> Sweeping generalization? No, it's a well-founded generalization based on having lived in America in many places for most of my life.



I'll match your time and places and, incidentally, my rather short time as a radio announcer. (Back in the days when enunciation was important)



> I suppose you say butter instead of budder? Letter instead of ledder?



As an articulate native speaker, yes, although I don't doubt that I could be in the minority. Exception was taken to the painting with an unequivocal broad brush. That does not mean that AE speakers enunciating "butter" use the accentuated butter used across the pond.

So does the late Jim Croce in his mega-hit "Time in a Bottle."

I guess you didn't check those forvo cuts listed above.


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## JulianStuart

<<Note: long619's question has been added to an existing thread as post # 20. Please review threads 1-19 for earlier discussion>>


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## JustKate

Hmmm, I'm not a mumbler, SDG, but I'm pretty sure when I say "butter" it sounds a whole heck of a lot like "budder" - most of the time, anyway. I have heard people who pronounce those T's like "t," but not that many, particularly not all the time. I can accept that you do, but it is at least fair to say that many AmE speakers don't.

On the other hand, when I say _battle_ or _letter_, the T's aren't strongly articulated, but they don't sound quite the same as D's, either.

(I can't access the Forvo cuts from work. I have no idea why, but my PC is quite adamant about it.)


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## JulianStuart

sdgraham said:


> As an articulate native speaker, yes, although I don't doubt the existence of a hoard of mumblers out there.


That seems to be a potentially inflammatory minority view - that anyone who uses the common "American flap t" (or whatever the technical term is) is "mumbling"  Reviewing the thread above and other links, it seems very common.  My own comparisons of the UK and the US sounds would mark anyone with a clearly enunciated t in butter as very likely from the UK, although the _voicing_ of the d in AmE is variable, it rarely sounds like a (totally unvoiced) t.

(In fact, on the occasions where someone over here makes fun of my British accent, the exaggerated UK t in butter is often a target they mock)


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## dreamlike

Hi everyone,

I hope what I'm about to write is not against the rules of our forum. Anyway, I'm in the middle of writing an essay about the issue in question, and I'm looking for some real-life eamples where this phenomenon caused communication troubles. I can always make some eamples up, but I thought I'd first ask you about this.


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## natkretep

If you're listening to isolated words, I think it's easy to get words mixed up. Just last week, I was speaking to a Singaporean who had been living in Vancouver. At first I thought he said 'letter'. He had a voiced consonant and /r/. The /r/ was unexpected because the normal accent here is non-rhotic, and this led me to interpret the voiced consonant as an underlying /t/. Eventually, I realised that he meant to say 'ladder'. Two things threw me off: the presence of the /r/ sound, as well as a rather less open first vowel. In other words, it was the other sounds that caused me to interpret the voiced consonant the way I did.


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## Happyweekend

<<Happyweekend's question has been added to the ongoing discussion of this subject.  Please review the previous responses>>

Happy Monday everybody!

I'm still trying to figure out how to pronounce the flap t in AE.
It sounds like an L sound to me. I wonder if I'm hearing it wrong or understanding it wrong.
Like when you say:
1. Butter
or
2. Ladder
- Does the flap t sound the same as a light L sound? (As the L in 'Like)Do they take the same mouth position?

P.S I know there are two ways to pro nice the light L, the way I'm talking about is where the tip of the tongue touches the roof the mouth, just behind the front teeth.
Please explain.

Thank you!


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## JustKate

The "t" sound in _butter_ and the "d" sound in _ladder_ sound identical in my dialect, but they don't sound even slightly like an "l" sound. I can't imagine them sounding like an "l" sound in any native dialect. Sorry!


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## Glenfarclas

The positioning of the tongue is very similar in producing the flap-t and the l, but (1) the t is a plosive, and (2) the t is not voiced.  (The d sound that Kate and I share in making words like "butter" and "water" comes from voicing the t when it appears between to vowels, a common linguistic change.)


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## VicNicSor

<<Vik's question has been appended to the discussion of the flap t.  Please read from the top>>

I *d*on't know
a lo*t* of world to see
li*tt*le (not like the usual "soft d" which dictionaries give for the AE "little")

The question is -- can I use 'flap T' in the marked letters the way I can use it here:
daugh*t*er
be*tt*er
?

Thank you.


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## Parla

I've never heard of "flap T". What does it mean, and where did you read or hear it?


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## VicNicSor

It's about the ways the British and the Americans say "t" in words such as "little", "better", etc.


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## Forero

VikNikSor said:


> <<Vik's question has been appended to the discussion of the flap t.  Please read from the top>>
> 
> I *d*on't know
> a lo*t* of world to see
> li*tt*le (not like the usual "soft d" which dictionaries give for the AE "little")
> 
> The question is -- can I use 'flap T' in the marked letters the way I can use it here:
> daugh*t*er
> be*tt*er
> ?
> 
> Thank you.


Yes. We use it wherever a stressed vowel precedes and an unstressed vowel follows the _t_. Note that the _t_ can remain a _t_, i.e. unvoiced, even when flapped, but it often becomes voiced to the point of sounding just like a flapped _d_ (a _d_ in the same environment).


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## VicNicSor

Forero said:


> Yes. We use it wherever a stressed vowel precedes and an unstressed vowel follows the _t_. Note that the _t_ can remain a _t_, i.e. unvoiced, even when flapped, but it often becomes voiced to the point of sounding just like a flapped _d_ (a _d_ in the same environment).


Thank you.


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## RM1(SS)

Parla said:


> I've never heard of "flap T". What does it mean, and where did you read or hear it?


It's been discussed here many times.  You must have slept through those threads.


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## Alice_2.0

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> There is no such thing as an "American" pronunciation of anything. There are instead distinct regional pronunciations. There is no reason, though, why anyone who is trying to master English should want to sound specifically as if he came from South Carolina, or Long Island, or North Dakota, when it is obvious that he did not. If I were you, I would just pronounce a "t" as a "t" and a "d" as a "d", and no one hearing you speak will be confused about what you are trying to say.



However, there is something named "General American", which can be compared to the Received Pronunciation when referring to a "standard" British English. Even if there are lots of different regional pronunciations in the US (which happens even in much smaller countries such as Spain), there are certain common features which a huge number of Americans actually display when speaking English; hence the usual distinction betewen the American and the British accent, I guess.

Cheers!


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Alice_2.0 said:


> However, there is something named "General American", which can be compared to the Received Pronunciation when referring to a "standard" British English.



Two problems with your claim:
1) You can point a distinct group of British people whose native accent is "Received Pronunciation."  However, who in the US speaks this supposed "General American"?
2) Received pronunciation has been considered "standard" because of associations with class, wealth, and power. There is absolutely no equivalent for "General American", whatever it is.


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## JulianStuart

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Two problems with your claim:
> 1) You can point a distinct group of British people whose native accent is "Received Pronunciation."  However, who in the US speaks this supposed "General American"?
> 2) Received pronunciation has been considered "standard" because of associations with class, wealth, and power. There is absolutely no equivalent for "General American", whatever it is.


My guess also would be that there are far more BE speakers who do not speak RP than do


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## dojibear

In the early years of television (1950 to 1970) news reporters on national TV networks were trained to speak with one specific accent. I have read (years ago) that this trained accent was roughly based on a northern-midwest-US accent.

But it is not an exact copy of one specific region's dialect. Wikipedia's article on "General American" quotes one news reporter saying "in television you are not supposed to sound like you're from anywhere".


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## JulianStuart

dojibear said:


> In the early years of television (1950 to 1970) news reporters on national TV networks were trained to speak with one specific accent. I have read (years ago) that this trained accent was roughly based on a northern-midwest-US accent.
> 
> But it is not an exact copy of one specific region's dialect. Wikipedia's article on "General American" quotes one news reporter saying "in television you are not supposed to sound like you're from anywhere".


Thr BBC newsreaders were similarly trained in RP so the BBC world service would be intelligible all over the (then big) empire.  More recently, BBC newsreaders have a wide range of accents although the enuncuiation is good


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## Alice_2.0

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Two problems with your claim:
> 1) You can point a distinct group of British people whose native accent is "Received Pronunciation."  However, who in the US speaks this supposed "General American"?
> 2) Received pronunciation has been considered "standard" because of associations with class, wealth, and power. There is absolutely no equivalent for "General American", whatever it is.



Well, I guess *dojibear* has pretty much given you a "solution" to those "problems". My "claim" was mainly based on that data, but also on the teaching of the English language itself. There are millions of teachers (US/UK native speakers, but also ESL teachers like myself), not to mention the worldwide recognized linguistic institutions and instructional materials, that have all agreed to divide English into two major groups: British (taught with a Received Pronunciation), and American (taught with a General American accent). I guess it makes sense, because you obviously can't learn and teach every single accent to your students.

As I already mentioned, something similar happens with Spanish: Latin American Spanish/Spanish from Spain. And not only they differ in many ways, but there are also lots of different accents both within Latin America and Spain; however, I don't get mad because they've all been aggregated in order to represent the same language/accent. Perhaps you're focusing too much on the differences, instead of the similarities. Just saying!


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## JulianStuart

The main problem I have with the term RP is that it is not defined  It has changed so much during my lifetime so I don't know what people mean when they say RP.

An extract from wiki on the subject



> Like all accents, RP has changed with time. For example, sound recordings and films from the first half of the 20th century demonstrate that it was usual for speakers of RP to pronounce the /æ/ sound, as in _land_, with a vowel close to [ɛ], so that _land_ would sound similar to a present-day pronunciation of _lend_. RP is sometimes known as *the Queen's English*, but recordings show that even Queen Elizabeth II has changed her pronunciation over the past 50 years, no longer using an [ɛ]-like vowel in words like _land_.[81]


*

There are many other changes that have occurred during the 20th century and when I was growing up, it was the "upper class" that had the older versions and many of the people who used RP considered themselves "elite" in some way and this engendered resentment by those (probably the majority) less privileged than them.  You can read a lot about it in the wiki and the history section  is here. Received Pronunciation - Wikipedia

Alice: Could you provide a link to the RP that you currently teach - it might help me in discussions such as these to see a clear listing for "modern RP"

* The old joke about how the Victorians defined sex: Those begs (i.e. bags) the coal is delivered in. (i.e. sacks)


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## Alice_2.0

I'm afraid I haven't written any textbook so far, so I follow what the academics such as those at Cambridge or Oxford create. 

When it comes to speaking, I simply try to sound as neutral or standard as possible, as this makes it easier for students to learn the language (I guess the BBC style would be the best example of what I mean).

I don't have a specific definition, I'd say it's more a matter of intuition and auiditive perception (apart from being aware of the distinct pronunciation and intonation features themselves): does a Scottish sound the same as someone from Liverpool, London, or Ireland for that matter? Of course, it is inevitable to make an overgeneralization here, as two individuals in the same area can sometimes sound quite different... Anyway, I have even stumbled upon some non English native speakers who work as Cambridge examiners, but whose pronunciation isn't always clear enough (I mean, they're working for Cambridge!). 

So I don't really know, but whatever this RP thing means nowadays, to me it just stands as a synonym for "standard/neutral British English", regardless of its origins (and of the fact that it certainly won't sound "neutral" in, let's say, New York). I suppose it doesn't matter that much if we don't have an exact definition, the general idea works fine for me (and for many others, as it seems).
Sorry that I can't explain it any better!


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## Keith Bradford

These definitions and distinctions are real and identifiable.  But I'm not sure how useful they are to foreign speakers who are asking for guidance on how they *should* pronounce the -tt- and -dd- combinations, not how some Americans or Brits *do *pronounce them.

I'm a naive purist in these matters, and would advise the foreign learners simply to pronounce the words as they are spelt: _latter_ is pronounced /'lætə/ and _ladder _is /'lædə/.  Is this how most Americans pronounce them?  Maybe not.  Is it how some Americans and most UK citizens pronounce them?  Surely.  Will it be widely understood around the world?  Certainly.

There are many problems when an Arab or a Chinese speaker tries to imitate some peculiarity or regionalism.  People might think he is being sarcastic, or dishonest. If he doesn't get it perfectly right he simply won't be understood.

After time, most people's accents tend towardsthe local norm, but that comes with long practice.  But if you're learning English from overseas you don't have a local norm, so don't force it.


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## JulianStuart

Keith, I found that the WRF entries for butter and better have audio files for US, UK, RP and several others where you can compare.  
butter - WordReference.com Dictionary of English 
better - WordReference.com Dictionary of English  There is also a set for latter and ladder, for direct comparison.  
latter - WordReference.com Dictionary of English 
ladder - WordReference.com Dictionary of English The distinction between US and UK for butter, better and latter seems clear to me and I can easily pick up someone who says it with a BE sound even if there are other confusing aspects of their accent


Of interest for Alice and the issue of RP, is the difference in vowels between the files labeled  UK and RP


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## Oddmania

Keith Bradford said:


> would advise the foreign learners simply to pronounce the words as they are spelt: _latter_ is pronounced /'lætə/ and _ladder _is /'lædə/.


_Latter _and _ladder _are spelt with an *R*, though  American speakers flap their T's and English speakers drop their R's *¯\_(ツ)_/¯*. I think at some point you have to make a choice (which is so great, having the option! I love both accents so much I switch between General American and R.P. all the time, depending on what accent the person I'm talking to has).

What I find somewhat puzzling, though, is the fact some people ask "_How can I flap my Ts like an American? I always end up with a D instead_". It doesn't really need to be learned. It comes naturally after years of exposure to American English and natural laziness. If your accent is fully rhotic, pronouncing _hatter _with a hard T really takes an extra effort. If you're non-rhotic, then it's not any harder than saying "had to".


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## Alice_2.0

Keith Bradford said:


> These definitions and distinctions are real and identifiable.  But I'm not sure how useful they are to foreign speakers who are asking for guidance on how they *should* pronounce the -tt- and -dd- combinations, not how some Americans or Brits *do *pronounce them.
> 
> I'm a naive purist in these matters, and would advise the foreign learners simply to pronounce the words as they are spelt: _latter_ is pronounced /'lætə/ and _ladder _is /'lædə/.  Is this how most Americans pronounce them?  Maybe not.  Is it how some Americans and most UK citizens pronounce them?  Surely.  Will it be widely understood around the world?  Certainly.
> 
> There are many problems when an Arab or a Chinese speaker tries to imitate some peculiarity or regionalism.  People might think he is being sarcastic, or dishonest. If he doesn't get it perfectly right he simply won't be understood.
> 
> After time, most people's accents tend towardsthe local norm, but that comes with long practice.  But if you're learning English from overseas you don't have a local norm, so don't force it.



The problem here is these learners are not asking how _some_ Americans do pronounce them, but how *most* Americans do pronounce them, as you yourself stated. So again, I'm not talking about regionalisms here.

Take the example of a foreign learner who has just started to work in a company where he has to communicate with American native speakers on a daily basis. If I tought him how to pronounce these sounds in a "purist" manner (that is, in a British manner), perhaps he would be understood, but he would also most certainly have trouble understanding their partners' accent, and their communication wouldn't be as fluent and natural as it could be.

I personally find it a little bit dangerous to try to restrain things that much when it comes to learning a foreign language. It is like telling the students not to dare starting a real conversation with a native speaker until they've reached a proficient level, because if they can't pronounce every word properly, they won't be understood. They do happen to have trouble with a lot of sounds, not just the "American" way to pronounce them, but the British too.



JulianStuart said:


> Of interest for Alice and the issue of RP, is the difference in vowels between the files labeled UK and RP



Thanks, I've been aware of this tool for many years now, ever since I started to use WR. Anyway, I don't see any difference in vowels between the files you've posted. In fact, I rarely see any difference between UK and RP labels whenever I look up a word, and the pronunciations indeed are pretty much the same.



Oddmania said:


> What I find somewhat puzzling, though, is the fact some people ask "_How can I flap my Ts like an American? I always end up with a D instead_". It doesn't really need to be learned. It comes naturally after years of exposure to American English and natural laziness. If your accent is fully rhotic, pronouncing _hatter _with a hard T really takes an extra effort. If you're non-rhotic, then it's not any harder than saying "had to".



Well, in my experience, there are indeed some ways to get to know how to make those sounds: that's where phonetics comes in. It might take years of practice for some people to get there, or just a few months for others... of course, exposure to American English is essential, but it also depends on your skills, your interest and how much effort and practice you put into it.


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## cointi

Oddmania said:


> What I find somewhat puzzling, though, is the fact some people ask "_How can I flap my Ts like an American? I always end up with a D instead_". It doesn't really need to be learned. It comes naturally after years of exposure to American English and natural laziness.



Exactly so. Forcing it may actually be counterproductive. Which doesn't mean it is not useful to acquaint yourself with the mechanics. There are plenty of videos on Youtube.


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