# splendeur pataude



## Nanayo

Greeting, WR people!

I'm trying to find a decent translation/rendition of the expression in the title thread. 

It refers to a building - a Jugendstil-type-manor (the pictures below are here to give an idea of the kind of building). It's quite ironic and a bit dismissive.


My first guess would be 'clumsy manor', but I can feel it doesn't work


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## Itisi

'a manor with an awkward kind of splendour'?


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## rolmich

According to the pictures, I would introduce the term "kitsch".


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## JClaudeK

Pour rendre "pataude":

'a manor with a clumsy/ cumbersome kind of splendour'


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## wildan1

rolmich said:
			
		

> According to the pictures, I would introduce the term "kitsch".


_Kitsch _in English is only a noun--not an adjective, which is _kitschy_ in English.

But I don't think it fits for this _overwrought mélange of architectural styles. _EN _mélange_ is usually a negative description of things thrown together in a tasteless way.


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## Itisi

*JCK*; 'cubersome' is 'encombrant', which to me is a different idea...


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## Nanayo

Thanks everyone for all the remarks/suggestions, they help me in my quest for the _right _word!


The thing is, what is pointed out with the expression « splendeur pataude » is the attempted (and failed) _grandeur_. 

I would be drawn to use an adjective which usualy refers to humans… *plump, beefy*?

(i’ve seen « beefy building » used in this text (about the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa’s building… ) 





> See all of New Zealand for nothing at Te Papa. Well, sort of - this beefy building on Wellington's waterfront is the country's national museum [...]



Or maybe just *weighty *? I found an example of _weighty building_, but again, it was used to describe another type of building it seems (a skyscraper)

Que faire, mes amis, que faire ?


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## Kelly B

I rather like _ungainly _from the WR entry.


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## Itisi

Kelly B said:


> I rather like _ungainly_


Mm, so do I!


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## Nanayo

Tout simplement ! Thanks, Kelly B!


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## JClaudeK

Itisi said:


> 'cumbersome' is 'encombrant', which to me is a different idea...


Really? You must know it better ....


> "pataud(e)"
> *c)* [En parlant d'un animal, d'une chose concr.] Qui a *un aspect lourd.*
> PATAUD : Synonymie de PATAUD


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## Itisi

Oui, 'encombrant' veut dire 'qui prend de la place', 'qui gêne', et ce n'est pas la même chose, même si quelque chose de lourd peut aussi être encombrant...


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## Angela Thomas

Hi! 
Disclosure: I'm not a bilingual person, but based on the conversation, I thought this might fit: *ponderous *= 
1. slow and clumsy because of great weight. Synonyms: clumsy, heavy, awkward, lumbering, slow, cumbersome, ungainly, graceless, uncoordinated, blundering; _informal _clunky 
2. dull, laborious, or excessively solemn. Synonyms: labored, laborious, awkward, clumsy, forced, stilted, unnatural, artificial; stodgy, lifeless, plodding, pedestrian, boring, dull, tedious, monotonous; overelaborate, convoluted, windy


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## tartopom

To complete the list of adjectives: unwieldy, gauche, lummox, gawky, oafish. I don't know if they could fit for a manor !!


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## wildan1

Nanayo said:


> I would be drawn to use an adjective which usualy refers to humans… *plump, beefy*?


_Plump_ -- lips, fruit, breasts--but not architecture.
_Beefy_-- tomatoes, muscular men, a challenging job--but not architecture (_"beefy" building _sounds strange to me)

_Pataud_ is not about something strong or sexy--more about something that is poorly designed or executed.


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## Itisi

'Ungainly' gets my vote.


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## JClaudeK

wildan1 said:


> more about something that is poorly designed or executed.


"poorly designed" is not what "pataud" makes me think of. It's more about "_des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées_"=> trapu, massif
trapu* 2.* [En parlant de choses] Qui a des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées.


Itisi said:


> 'Ungainly' gets my vote.


+ 1


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## Nanayo

I just came across the word "goofy"...

Just out of curiosity: what would you picture in your mind hearing the words "a goofy building" ??


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## tartopom

'a funny building'.


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## wildan1

_A goofy building_ or _house _can indeed be used for one with no logical design--perhaps like this one.

To be sure I meant its appearance and not its layout, I would say_ a goofy-looking house._


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## Nicomon

Add my vote to _ungainly.  _ 

But if it needs to be ironic, then I quite like  _goofy-looking. _

Dans ce contexte, _pataud _me fait penser à _gauche/maladroit_ avant tout. 
Et dans la liste des synonymes - en parlant de quelqu'un et nom d'un manoir - je l'associe plus à_ *ba*lourd_ qu'à _lourd_.


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## Itisi

'Goofy' means 'ridiculous', 'silly'', and doesn't correspond to 'pataud'. Also, I doubt if it corresponds to the right register; and I don't feel it correspond to irony.


Nicomon said:


> _pataud _me fait penser à _gauche/maladroit_ avant tout.


 Me too.


JClaudeK said:


> "_des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées_"=> trapu, massif.   trapu* 2.* [En parlant de choses] Qui a des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées..


Only 'lourd' fits the definition.  'Pataud' is not a synonym of 'trapu'.


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## Keith Bradford

Angela Thomas said:


> ..., but based on the conversation, I thought this might fit: *ponderous *...


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## Itisi

*'Keith*, 'ponderous' does not have the notion of clumsiness of 'pataud'.


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## mancunienne girl

Of all the suggestions I prefer "ungainly". The other suggested adjectives are more likely to be used to describe people, and not inanimate objects or places, in my opinion. I would also suggest "inelegant", as in the link below:
Viñoly's London Skyscraper "Bloated" and "Inelegant"


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## JClaudeK

mancunienne girl said:


> The other suggested adjectives are more likely to be used to describe people


Just like "pataud(e)" which usually applies to people or animals. That's why it's so difficult to find an equivalent.


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## wildan1

Well, to that point, when I read Kelly B's suggestion of _ungainly _(also in our dictionary)_,_ I immediately thought of a teenage boy who can't yet manage his quickly growing body (balance, gait, etc.).

So that may indeed be the perfect choice.


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## Keith Bradford

Itisi said:


> *'Keith*, 'ponderous' does not have the notion of clumsiness of 'pataud'.


Strange, the Shorter OED definition of ponderous is: "Having great weight; heavy; massive; clumsy, unwieldy."  (My emphasis.)


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## Itisi

*Keith*, ok, who am I to argue with the OED, but I will argue, anyway! 'Ponderous' is from the Latin _pondus,_ _ponderis_, meaning 'weight'.  'Pataud' means 'heavy' in the sense of 'clumsy, not in the sense of 'massive'.  The word is used for puppies.  It's a strange word to use for a building, really.  But the building on the picture does have charm...

Using synonyms is double-edged: sometimes it gets us closer, sometimes further from the meaning, as we keep seeing... (Itisi's first ever aphorism.)


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## Nicomon

Itisi said:


> 'Goofy' means 'ridiculous', 'silly'', and doesn't correspond to 'pataud'. Also, I doubt if it corresponds to the right register; and I don't feel it correspond to irony.


  Oops... I thought goofy could also mean "funny"  (comme dans bizarre) or the French  « gauche / maladroit ».

But I did vote for _ungainly_ first.


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## JClaudeK

Itisi said:


> Using synonyms is double-edged: sometimes it gets us closer, sometimes further from the meaning,


De l'eau sur ton moulin  !


Itisi said:


> Only 'lourd' fits the definition. 'Pataud' is not a synonym of 'trapu'.



Je n'ai jamais prétendu que "trapu" pouvait convenir ici comme équivalent de "pataud", je voulais juste illustrer mon propos concernant "poorly designed":


JClaudeK said:


> "poorly designed" is not what "pataud" makes me think of. It's more about "_des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées_"


"_des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées_" qui souvent rendent une personne/ un animal "pataud(e)".

Ce n'est pas pour rien que ce chien s'appelle "Pataud".


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## Itisi

JClaudeK said:


> "_des formes courtes, lourdes et ramassées_" qui souvent rendent une personne/ un animal "pataud(e)"..


Ces formes le rendent pataud, ok, mais ça ne veut pas dire que c'est le _sens_ du mot 'pataud'.  En tout cas, j'ai cherché dans les définitions du cnrtl, et je n'ai pas vu ça...



Nicomon said:


> . I thought goofy could also mean "funny"  (comme dans bizarre) or the French  « gauche / maladroit ».


Well, yes, like a clown, say.


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## Angela Thomas

Hi all! 
Nanayo, could you please tell us the exact sentence _splendeur pataude_ is in? It's likely to help.
Meanwhile, getting back to _splendeur_, I would vote for "ungainly splendor", "awkward splendor", or even "ponderous splendor" as they sound natural to me and there are examples online. I did find this online:
The Pantheon is a chapel in itself, and has an altar _heavy with ungainly splendour_ designed by two Hieronymite monks." Maybe _heavy with awkward splendour_? If you're going for _funny/goofy _perhaps "bumbling splendor"? 
My two cents....


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## Nicomon

@ JClaudeK -  en anglais, le chien de Cendrillon s'appelle _Bruno_.

Et merci de la précision, Itisi.  En fait, ce manoir fait un petit peu clownesque. 

Je pense qu'on ne pourra pas faire mieux que _ungainly_. À mon avis, c'est parfait.


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## JClaudeK

Itisi said:


> Ces formes le rendent pataud, ok, mais ça ne veut pas dire que c'est le _sens_ du mot 'pataud'.


Décidément, tu veux me faire dire des choses que je n'ai jamais dites !


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## Itisi

*JCK*, désolée si je t'ai mal compris !

PS - On the whole, we agree that 'ungainly' is a good choice, so perhaps we can go and do something else now! (I need to go and get a life!)


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## JClaudeK

Je te pardonne.


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## Nicomon

wildan1 said:


> Well, to that point, when I read Kelly B's suggestion of _ungainly _(also in our dictionary)_,_ I immediately thought of a teenage boy who can't yet manage his quickly growing body (balance, gait, etc.).So that may indeed be the perfect choice.


  I think several of us agree.  And... Kelly did mention in post 8 :  from the WR entry.  

So for Nanayo, it's on this page.


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## Itisi

Indeed.  (See my PS at #36! - huh, #36)


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