# Quales artifices pereunt



## Randisi.

Hello, everyone.

I should explain up front that I know very little Latin beyond some technical terms in philosophy.

The sentence _Quales artifices pereunt_ appears in an essay I'm translating from French into English. It seems very similar to Suetonius's quotation of Nero: _Qualis artifex pereo_! Which I understand means something like: What an artist dies in me!

My question is how exactly would _Quales artifices pereunt _be translated? Does it say the same thing as _Qualis artifex pereo_ except with different tenses?

I'm just trying to figure out why the author used the version he did.

Thanks. I appreciate any help you can lend.


----------



## Cagey

It is the plural form of the same statement: "What sort of artists die!"
(In this version there is nothing that would be translated as _with me_ or _with__ us_, though 'with me' is a reasonable paraphrase of the original version.)

Does that fit the context?  Is he talking about the difficulties of multiple artists or potential artists?


----------



## Randisi.

Cagey said:


> It is the plural form of the same statement:
> 
> Does that fit the context?  Is he talking about the difficulties of multiple artists or potential artists?



Yes, the text (from 1974) is referring to all the scientists, politicians, etc. who have been preparing the death of us all via nuclear weapons. Who will be left to admire their cleverness after we are all gone?, the author asks right after that quote.

Thanks again!


----------



## Randisi.

Cagey said:


> It is the plural form of the same statement: "What sort of artists die!"
> (In this version there is nothing that would be translated as _with me_ or _with__ us_, though 'with me' is a reasonable paraphrase of the original version.)



Actually, I have one quick question.

Shouldn't it be "with them" instead of "with us"?


----------



## Cagey

It isn't in the sentence, so I can't say.  I can imagine Latin for either version. 

Nero says (literally) "What sort of artist I perish!" However, that is very awkward English. The English paraphrase in effect separates the man who dies and the artist who dies.   In this sense, I can imagine people saying "What sort of artists die when we die!" Or, as you suggest "What sort of artists die when they die!"

One thing I did want to mention: by itself, _artifex_ usually meant "artist".   _Artifex_  was also used in combination with words specifying the area of expertise to refer to skilled workers in various trades, engineers, and inventors.  I am mentioning this in case it helps you decide on the word for your translation.


----------



## Randisi.

Thanks, Cagey.

I only need to translate it well enough to explain it in a footnote. The author doesn't make much of it in the essay.

_Artifices_ is the plural of _artifex_, right? So it needs to be "What kind of artists..."

But is _pereunt_ really ambiguous as to whether it refers to "we" or "they"?

Isn't it the third person plural, and not the first person plural? (With your help I've been able to look up the conjugation of _pereo_.)

What I have right now is: What kind of artists die [with them].

As an aside, I think my author also wanted to use _artifices_, instead of _artifex_ so he could also use the French _artificier_ (explosives technician) for some bilingual word play.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Randisi. said:


> _Artifices_ is the plural of _artifex_, right? So it needs to be "What kind of artists..."
> 
> 
> 
> Randisi. said:
> 
> 
> 
> But is _pereunt_ really ambiguous as to whether it refers to "we" or "they"?
> 
> 
> 
> No it's not. It means they, but the subject of the sentence remains indefinite. Who are "they"? It should be stated.
> 
> 
> 
> Randisi. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it the third person plural, and not the first person plural? (With your help I've been able to look up the conjugation of _pereo_.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Randisi. said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I have right now is: What kind of artists die [with them].
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Randisi.

Thank you, Ben.

That's helpful.


----------

