# サ変動詞 + を



## akashoz

(1) do I *always* have the option to place 「を」 between the 「サ変名詞」 and「する」?
運転する <-- ok? --> 運転をする
専攻する <-- ok? --> 専攻をする
勉強する <-- ok? --> 勉強をする
など

(2) are these rewordings ok?
車を運転する <-- ok? --> 車の運転をする
数学を専攻する <-- ok? --> 数学の専攻をする
日本語を勉強する <-- ok? --> 日本語の勉強をする

(3)
運転できる。
勉強できる。
専攻できる。 <-- is this correct Japanese?

is there 専門用語 for サ変名詞 that cannot use 「できる」？


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## Tonky

akashoz said:


> (1) 専攻する <-- ok? --> 専攻をする
> 
> (2) 数学を専攻する <-- ok? --> 数学の専攻をする


専攻をする does not sound natural to me.　I'd need to think for a while why and other examples.

And what kind of 専門用語 do you have on mind?


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## YangMuye

> 専攻できる。 <-- is this correct Japanese?
> is there 専門用語 for サ変名詞 that cannot use 「できる」？



日本語を専攻できる大学


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## akashoz

Tonky said:


> 専攻をする does not sound natural to me.　I'd need to think for a while why and other examples.
> 
> And what kind of 専門用語 do you have on mind?



Asking about 専門用語 was just pure conjecture. This was a bad question to ask.


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## Tonky

Other suru-verbs（or サ変動詞） that you cannot rephrase with を；
・どきどきする
・のんびりする
・ゆっくりする
・学生する
・青春する
・愛する（×愛できる）


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## akashoz

Tonky said:


> Other suru-verbs（or サ変動詞） that you cannot rephrase with を；
> ・どきどきする
> ・のんびりする
> ・ゆっくりする
> ・学生する
> ・青春する
> ・愛する（×愛できる）



Thank you so much. This is very interesting and useful to me.


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## akashoz

YangMuye said:


> 日本語を専攻できる大学



「できる」is a 自動詞。However, in this example sentence 「日本語」is 直接目的語。

This is why my Japanese is so bad... If I see 自動詞, I do not let myself write a direct object. Even if logically there should be one, and I want to write one, the rule for 自動詞 is that no direct objects are allowed, right?

the 品詞 for 「できる」 is 自動詞, right？Are grammar rules flexible in Japanese?


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## YangMuye

akashoz said:


> 「できる」is a 自動詞。However, in this example sentence 「日本語」is 直接目的語。
> 
> This is why my Japanese is so bad... If I see 自動詞, I do not let myself write a direct object. Even if logically there should be one, and I want to write one, the rule for 自動詞 is that no direct objects are allowed, right?
> 
> the 品詞 for 「できる」 is 自動詞, right？


Well, don't trust dictionary too much.
If you see “the 品詞 for 「できる」 is 自動詞”, read it as “「できる」 sometimes behaves like a 自動詞 ”.
But what is 「自動詞」? As far as I know, there is not a common accepted definition for it.



akashoz said:


> Are grammar rules flexible in Japanese?


Grammar rules are easy to describe, but hard to generalize.
Traditional grammar tends to generalize too much.
For example, they try to classify tens of thousands of words into 10 parts of speech.

Just pick Tonky-san's examples:


> ・どきどきする
> ・のんびりする
> ・ゆっくりする


Sometimes と is inserted before する. 




> ・愛する（×愛できる）


Many dictionary says 愛する is both 五段動詞 and サ変動詞. Actually it's irregular.
活用
　否定：愛さない
　連用：愛し(て)
　連体：愛する(人)
　終止：愛する(だろう)
　仮定：愛すれば (愛せば is also used)
　命令：愛せ
派生
　可能：愛せる
　受身：愛される
　使役：愛させる


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## YangMuye

akashoz said:


> Are grammar rules flexible in Japanese?


I think Japanese grammar is much more simple and reasonable than Chinese and English grammars.
For example, when you express “one can do something”, you can use “ことができる” for almost all verbs.
In Chinese, you have to learn verb by verb, although there are some rules.

The grammar rules you have read are not “flexible” but “obscure”.


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## akashoz

YangMuye said:


> I think Japanese grammar is much more simple and reasonable than Chinese and English grammars.
> For example, when you express “one can do something”, you can use “ことができる” for almost all verbs.
> In Chinese, you have to learn verb by verb, although there are some rules.
> 
> The grammar rules you have read are not “flexible” but “obscure”.



Excellent. Thank you very, very, much. I can shift to a different way of studying. I won't need to post again here for a long time.


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## YangMuye

akashoz said:


> Excellent. Thank you very, very, much. I can shift to a different way of studying. I won't need to post again here for a long time.


just to confirm...

I'm not saying Japanese grammar is something like 





> when you express “one can do something”, you can use “ことができる” for almost all verbs.



I means, it hard, impossible and dangerous to generalize complex usages into an “elegant”, “catch-all” grammar rule, which may be what grammarians love, despite that the orderliness and logicality of Japanese grammar is likely to make people do so.

品词 and 自动词 are just “hints” rather than “rules”, which can help you learn a new word faster. You still need to confirm every usage for each new word by yourself.


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## Tonky

akashoz said:


> 「できる」is a 自動詞。However, in this example sentence 「日本語」is 直接目的語。
> the 品詞 for 「できる」 is 自動詞, right？Are grammar rules flexible in Japanese?


Please refer to my previous post here about the use of を and this thread for the meaning of できる.
To put it short, 「友達ができる」, 「水溜りができる」 and such are always 自動詞, however, phrases derived from 「～することができる」 can have a different structure to take を.



YangMuye said:


> But what is 「自動詞」? As far as I know, there is not a common accepted definition for it.


The common definition is, as akashoz-san said, "intransitive verbs" that do not take を. Its 自 means it can work by itself (it functions without objects.)



YangMuye said:


> Many dictionary says 愛する is both 五段動詞 and サ変動詞. Actually it's irregular.
> 活用
> 否定：愛さない
> 連用：愛し(て)
> 連体：愛する(人)
> 終止：愛する(だろう)
> 仮定：愛すれば (愛せば is also used)
> 命令：愛せ
> 派生
> 可能：愛せる
> 受身：愛される
> 使役：愛させる


My bad. I should have explained a bit more on it. but it is usually considered to be an irregular サ変動詞, and 愛す is 五段動詞.
Please compare with 恋する/恋をする. (恋しない、恋して、恋する、恋すれば、恋しろ、恋できる・・・）


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