# Despite + verb



## Andrew___

Hi guys,

Is it possible to use  بالرغم من + a verb, or must one always add a noun after this expression.

For example, could I use a verbal structure to say "Although I went to the bank today, I still do not have enough change".

Thanks,
Andrew


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## ayed

Al Sulhafa said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Is it possible to use بالرغم من + a verb, or must one always add a noun after this expression.
> 
> For example, could I use a verbal structure to say "Although I went to the bank today, I still do not have enough change".
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrew


Yes, you can "
بالرغم من أني *ذهبت* 
بالرغم من *ذهابي* verbal noun


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## elroy

You cannot use a verb *directly* after بالرغم من (see Ayed's examples).  من is a preposition so it must be followed by a noun or an equivalent.

Another way to say "although I went" is مع أنني ذهبت.


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## Andrew___

Thanks guys.

In addition to your suggestions, would it be possible to adopt a structure similar to English, where we say "despite the fact that I went".  In other words, is there a word we could add after بالرغم من for "the fact that", or is this structure only used in English?

Andrew


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## elroy

No, there is no word that we use that way.

We just say ...بالرغم من *أن*.


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## Xence

Al Sulhafa said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> In addition to your suggestions, would it be possible to adopt a structure similar to English, where we say "despite the fact that I went". In other words, is there a word we could add after بالرغم من for "the fact that", or is this structure only used in English?
> 
> Andrew


 
You can also say:

بالرغم من كون أنني ذهبت

كون أن = the fact that


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## elroy

Xence said:


> بالرغم من كون أنني ذهبت
> 
> كون أن = the fact that


 Hm...I'm sorry, but personally I don't like that construction at all.

It sounds strange, and the word كون doesn't add anything to the sentence.  It is much more fluid without it.


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## Andrew___

There seem to be over 15,000 references on Google to the phrase "بالرغم من كون".  I don't know if this changes anything, I simply point it out.


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## elroy

I don't have anything against بالرغم من كون _per se_. There are many contexts in which it would be appropriate:

For example, لا أحب أن أتسوق في ذلك السوق بالرغم من كون البضائع رخيصة (_I don't like shopping in that market, despite the fact that the stuff sold there [lit. the wares] is cheap._)

You could also say بالرغم من أن البضائع رخيصة but the above version sounds absolutely fine to me.

It's بالرغم من كون أن that really bothers me.

If I wanted to use كون to say "even though I went," I would say بالرغم من* كوني ذهبت*.


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## Andrew___

Ah I see, my apologies.

Yes, there are only 2 references on Google to بالرغم من *كون أن*, so it's certainly not the most popular expression going around


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## ayed

Also you can say:
*رغم ذهابي*
*رغم أني ذهبت*


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## licinio

elroy said:


> the word كون doesn't add anything to the sentence. It is much more fluid without it.


 
Maybe it's just the influence of European languages that has prompted the use of this construction. Could it be useful in this case, though?
بالرغم من كوني صديقَكَ، لا بد من أن أقول لك لا.


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## Xence

elroy said:


> Hm...I'm sorry, but personally I don't like that construction at all.


 
I can understand that !  This is a modern construction we frequently read in newspapers or hear in medias. (Google gives *6 470 000* results for كون أن ). I am not saying than it's better that what you've suggested previously, but I am a bit realistic and I notice that Arabic, as any other language, is evolving, maybe under the influence of European languages, as suggested by licino.



> It sounds strange, and the word كون doesn't add anything to the sentence. It is much more fluid without it.


 
I can also understand ! 
In my opinion, كون allows to express a state or summarise a sentence:

لم تقم بواجباتك كما ينبغي
عدم قيامك بواجباتك كما ينبغي يعتبر إخلالا بالقانون الداخلي 
*كون أن* عدم قيامك بواجباتك كما ينبغي يعتبر إخلالا بالقانون الداخلي *يعرّضك للعقوبة*
بالرغم من *كون أن هذا السلوك يعرضك للعقوبة* فإنك تصر على التمادي فيه


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## elroy

licinio said:


> Could it be useful in this case, though?
> بالرغم من كوني صديقَكَ، لا بد من أن أقول لك لا.


 Yes, absolutely. But that's a different example, because it doesn't have أن after كون. 





Xence said:


> I can understand that !  This is a modern construction we frequently read in newspapers or hear in medias. (Google gives *6 470 000* results for كون أن ). I am not saying that it's better that what you've suggested previously, but I am a bit realistic and I notice that Arabic, as any other language, is evolving, maybe under the influence of European languages, as suggested by licino.


 I am realistic too.  It's just that I don't think I had ever come across that particular construction, and more importantly, I don't see what purpose it serves. As far as I can tell, there is always another way to express the intended meaning without using it.

For example, in your sentences, I would say 

لم تقم بواجباتك كما ينبغي
عدم قيامك بواجباتك كما ينبغي يعتبر إخلالا بالقانون الداخلي 
*كون *عدم قيامك بواجباتك كما ينبغي يعتبر إخلالا بالقانون الداخلي *يعرّضك للعقوبة*
بالرغم من *أن هذا السلوك يعرضك للعقوبة* فإنك تصر على التمادي فيه 

It seems to me that one of the two words is always redundant.


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## Xence

elroy said:


> It seems to me that one of the two words is always redundant.


 
I'll not say it's "always" redundant. Don't forget that the main function of أنّ is expressing an affirmation توكيد . So, when added to كون , in some way, it does reinforce this affirmation.

كون أن is very common in MSA and even in dialectal Arabic, nonetheless I have to agree with you that the form بالرغم من كون أن is not that frequent.


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## elroy

Xence said:


> Don't forget that the main function of أنّ is expressing an affirmation توكيد .


 Hm... I know that formally it's classified as a حرف توكيد, but I would say that function has largely been lost. In *Modern* Standard Arabic (languages evolve, remember? ), أنّ is almost always indispensable where it occurs, and it does not add any extra emphasis to the sentence.

Example: أدركت أنّ الضيوف قد وصلوا - I realized that the guests had arrived.

The above sentence would not be used without أنّ, and it is a neutral sentence.





> كون أن is very common in MSA and even in dialectal Arabic


 It's not used in my dialect, and as I said I hadn't ever come across it in MSA. Live and learn!


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## cherine

Xence said:


> You can also say:
> 
> بالرغم من كون أنني ذهبت
> 
> كون أن = the fact that


I too don't like this one, it sounds a bit heavy. Maybe because we could simply say بالرغم من كوني adding the pronoun directly to كون instead of separating them with أنّ in a middle of a sentence.

Besides, كون + أن in the same structure is a bit unusual to me. Maybe because I'm used to see either كان أو أخواتها or أن أو أخواتها in a sentence, not both together.


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## Xence

Sorry, but I haven't imagined this phrase

كون أن


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## cherine

Sorry, Xence, I didn't say you imagined it or invented it  It's just that I'm not used to it, and think there could be simpler ways to express the same meaning.
And, again, I still believe that كوني is a lot better and simpler than كون أنني but if you prefer this structure, you can at least say كون أني to reduce the number of nuuns in two consecutive words


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## elroy

I agree with Cherine (obviously ), and would like to add that if you search for "كون أن" (in quotation marks) you get only about 64,000 results.

If you search for كون أن without quotation marks you get pages that have _either_ of the two words, but not necessarily both.


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## Xence

elroy said:


> I agree with Cherine (obviously ), and would like to add that if you search for "كون أن" (in quotation marks) you get only about 64,000 results.


 
But even 64,000 results aren't negligible ! It means that this phrase is actually used by Arabic speakers worldwide.


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## elroy

Yes, indeed - I just wanted to put things in perspective.


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## ayed

elroy said:


> *لا أحب أن أتسوق في ذلك السوق بالرغم من كون البضائع رخيصة *
> _1.I don't like shopping in that market, despite the stuff sold there *being* cheap._)
> 
> 
> 2.Despite the stuff sold there _*being*_ cheap, I don't like shopping in that market.


 What are your views?


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## elroy

ayed said:


> What are your views?


 I think "the stuff sold there being cheap" is colloquial, so I would use it in informal settings, but probably not with "despite," which is more formal.

In speech, I would say "even though the stuff sold there is cheap" or just "even though the stuff is cheap."

In formal writing, I would use the sentence I suggested, but not with "stuff sold there" (because "stuff" is definitely informal). I would probably use "products" or "merchandise"; "wares" sounds way too formal.

So it's more a question of register than anything else. 

(By the way, my original translation mixes registers, because I used "despite" and "stuff sold there," so don't take it as an example of natural speech or appropriate writing.  It was only meant as a quick translation of the Arabic sentence, and I wanted to use "despite" because that's the word we've been discussing.)


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> I think "the stuff sold there being cheap" is colloquial, so I would use it in informal settings, but probably not with "despite," which is more formal.



I disagree - I find this structure more formal actually. The word that sounds less formal in that example is "stuff":


_Despite its being cheap, I decided it would still be of acceptable quality.

Despite my being pedantic, I can still allow myself one or two highly colloquial structures per day._

This is essentially the equivalent of بالرغم من كون ... as "being" here is a noun.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> _Despite *its* being cheap, I decided it would still be of acceptable quality._
> 
> _Despite *my* being pedantic, I can still allow myself one or two highly colloquial structures per day._


 You used possessive pronouns, which makes a big difference as far as I'm concerned.   I consider "*it* being cheap" colloquial because that's what I would use in relaxed, informal conversation but not in a formal setting.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> you Used Possessive Pronouns, Which Makes A Big Difference As Far As I'm Concerned.   I Consider "*it* Being Cheap" Colloquial Because That's What I Would Use In Relaxed, Informal Conversation But Not In A Formal Setting.



هلاء فاهم قصدك



What's funny about the mechanics of English clitic _'s_, is that to make "Despite the stuff sold there being cheap" formally grammatical, you would have to say "Despite the stuff sold there's being cheap" which still wouldn't be formal-sounding at all to anyone, and you might just prefer an entirely different structure (like even though/although as you suggested above).


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