# Qu'est-ce qui se passe ?



## McCarty

I'm not clear on why the following question is reflexive:
"Qu'est-ce qui se passe?"

Is this sentence correct, and if so, is there a more literal translation beyond "What is happening?" that would explain the reflexive "se" being included?

Merci beaucoup


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## Matt_11

Don't quote me on this, but i think it is a different use for se.


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## marget

_Se passer_ is idiomatic, as far as I know. Some verbs are truly reflexive.  The plural construction can express reciprocal action and the third category is idiomatic.  I think that's where_ se passer_ belongs.


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## timpeac

marget said:
			
		

> _Se passer_ is idiomatic, as far as I know. Some verbs are truly reflexive. The plural construction can express reciprocal action and the third category is idiomatic. I think that's where_ se passer_ belongs.


I agree - I've thought about this to myself and never come up for a rational for it. I find it particularly telling that the comparable Spanish verb pasar - meaning exactly the same thing - _isn't_ reflexive (or pronominal to use the current lingo). Just an extra tax on the memory, I'm afraid!


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## McCarty

Ah, so is it just an idiomatic way of distinguishing between "to happen" and "to pass"? I saw the former as the dictionary definition, but couldn't understand why the pronoun was in there.


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## timpeac

I'm not sure that the use of the reflexive might have grown to distinguish the idea of passing from the idea of happening, but certainly "to happen" is "se passer" whereas "to pass" is "passer", so if it helps to view it in those terms then good idea.


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## polaire

Possibly of help.

http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa021900.htm


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## McCarty

I actually just found a French grammar site that has "se passer" listed as an idiomatic verb. I can't post the link because I don't have enough posts.

laits.utexas.edu/tex/gr/vpr1.html


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## CARNESECCHI

hello,
Pardon, mais c'est
"qu'est-ce qu'il se passe"  "il ne se passe rien"

ou
"qu'est-ce qui passe"  "rien ne passe"

mais pas
"qu'est-ce qui se passe"  
hope it helps!


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## timpeac

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> "qu'est-ce qui se passe"
> hope it helps!


But you do see and hear that form a lot (or not?) - do you mean that this is something that is said but shouldn't be, or something that French people just wouldn't say?


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## CARNESECCHI

You can say it, write it, but you must remember that it's not correct.
As soon as you try to analyse it, you see how many questions rise without answer : "se" pronominal ? reflexive? what is "qui" ? what is the subject of "passe" ? The grammatical analysis cannot be completed!

That is exactly what I mean when I post messages reminding that such or such sentence is not correct!


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## timpeac

Yes, I understand your argument - I must say I'd never thought about that - interesting! However, I would ask that you differentiate the two types of "incorrect" - eg that which is said but some might consider substandard and that which is wrong in the sense that no native would write it - both are interesting and as a foreigner we have no way of knowing which you mean.

You are, of course, quite right to highlight the usages that are likely to be criticised - I just like to know what might be said "in the street" as it were as well.


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## CARNESECCHI

timpeac said:
			
		

> However, I would ask that you differentiate the two types of "incorrect" - eg that which is said but some might consider substandard and that which is wrong in the sense that no native would write it - both are interesting and as a foreigner we have no way of knowing which you mean.


 
I'm at your side, tim. This is a general "maintenance" problem : How far must I go to be safe, but how close should I stop to remain efficient? 

Believe me : when I saw "_qu'est-ce qui se passe_", I had no reaction, it's so common. But after reading the thread, I understood that there was something here. And I posted my reminder to say "remember, even of great use, this sentence cannot be analyzed as is, and that was the real question here.". Then my problem is that, for me, this expression is so natural that I didn't think that your question would come, and I wrote a "minimal post".
I'll try to remember next time (I'll try, eh!)


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## timpeac

Thanks Luc! Just to explain my thought process on reading what you wrote
- "qu'est-ce qui se passe" is wrong? Why?
- read through your argument again - ah now I see why, because it needs to be impersonal.
- hang on - I'm sure I've always said "qu'est-ce qui se passe", have I been wrong all this time?
- google certainly has a huge number of hits for it.
- so is it wrong wrong or is this wrong as in some people would look down on it and if so how much (I'm sure I must have been taught this was the right way to say it, because I have never thought about this before).
- maybe what I've always heard as "qu'est-ce qui se passe" is really "qu'est-ce qu'i*l *se passe" but people are pronouncing the "l" quickly.
- and so I posted back to you for clarification.

I suppose that when you are a foreign speaker of a language you are never completely confident of your instincts, particularly when a native tells you something is wrong I am very inquisitive as well


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## polaire

timpeac said:
			
		

> *- maybe what I've always heard as "qu'est-ce qui se passe" is really "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" but people are pronouncing the "l" quickly.*


The same thought occurred to me.  I wonder how many times that has happened.


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## la_cavalière

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> hello,
> Pardon, mais c'est
> "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe"  "il ne se passe rien"
> 
> ou
> "qu'est-ce qui passe"  "rien ne passe"
> 
> mais pas
> "qu'est-ce qui se passe"
> hope it helps!


 
Are you sure? "Qu'est-ce qui se passe" has about ten times the Google hits than "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe." Is this a very common mistake or are they both correct?


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## Agnès E.

The mistake is so common that almost no one nowadays knows that the correct sentence is:

*Qu'est-ce que il se passe* => qu'est-ce qu'il se passe (que being the object of est, and il the subject of passe)

and not

*Qu'est-ce qui se passe* (qui being a relative pronoun, subject of passe)

Grammatically speaking, both are quite different. 
(and, believe me, google is definitely not a linguistic reference for good French grammar)


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## la_cavalière

Now I'm curious! 

Are you saying that "Qu'est-ce qui" cannot be followed by a reflexive construction? I always thought the the "qui" in "Qu'est-ce qui" was the subject.

I found these additional reflexive constructions:

"Qu'est-ce qui se produit"
"Qu'est-ce qui se cache"
"Qu'est-ce qui se trouve"
"Qu'est-ce qui se vend"
"Qu'est-ce qui se révèle"
"Qu'est-ce qui se perd"
"Qu'est-ce qui se mange"
"Qu'est-ce qui se joue"

Are these all incorrect?


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## CARNESECCHI

1st example
- La nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours"
- Qu'est ce qui se passe de roue de secours ?
- La nouvelle voiture
2nd example :
- La nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours
- Qu'est ce qu'il se passe ?
- Il se passe que la nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours


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## french4beth

I wonder if the literal translation of "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" would be "what is it that is occurring"?

And, in my humble opinion, sometimes you can't apply reason to grammatical rules in either your native language, or in a foreign language - it is what it is, unfortunately.

Glad to see that there are so many inquiring minds, both native & non-native speakers...  I find that I learn a lot here in the forums about my own language in addition to my acquired languages.


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## CARNESECCHI

Quelques idées :
"Qu'est-ce qui se produit" -> _Rien ne se produit seul_
"Qu'est-ce qui se cache" -> Le chat se cache
"Qu'est-ce qui se trouve" -> Où ?
"Qu'est-ce qui se trouve sous la rable" -> le chat se trouve sous la table
"Qu'est-ce qui se vend" -> les climatiseurs se vendent bien
"Qu'est-ce qui se révèle" -> le courage se révèle dans la nécessité
"Qu'est-ce qui se perd" -> L'imparfait du subjonctif se perd
"Qu'est-ce qui se mange" -> Ce qui est comestible se mange
"Qu'est-ce qui se joue" -> Une pièce se joue


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## timpeac

la_cavalière said:
			
		

> Now I'm curious!
> 
> Are you saying that "Qu'est-ce qui" cannot be followed by a reflexive construction? I always thought the the "qui" in "Qu'est-ce qui" was the subject.


No - not at all. The point is that it is impersonal, not that it is reflexive. If you start from the affirmative phrase

il se passe quelque chose - something is happening

if you follow the normal rules to turn that into a question it would become

qu'est-ce qu'il se passe ? or Que se passe-t-il ?

The form "qu'est-ce qui se passe" suggests that the affirmative form for "something is happening" is "quelque chose se passe" (which of course it isn't) since this would be the normal way to turn that statement into a question.


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## CARNESECCHI

french4beth said:
			
		

> I wonder if the literal translation of "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" would be "what is it that is occurring".


 
If I may :
word for word, "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" = "what is this that it itself happens"


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## CARNESECCHI

An other one ?

Qu'est-ce qui se passe ?
C'est le café qui se passe, mais avec un filtre!


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## marget

We even have a textbook entitled Qu'est-ce qui se passe and the author is French! I've always considered that expression to be correct.  _Qu'est-ce qui_ is the long form of the interrogative pronoun used as the subject.  I've also read that we could use the short form and say Que se passe-t-il?
If _qu'est-ce qui se passe_ is not correct, then is _qu'est-ce qui est arrivé_  also incorrect?


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## timpeac

It is fine if you means something has arrived - it means "what arrived" as in "le beaujolais nouveau est arrivé".

Le beaujolais nouveau arrive
Le beaujolais nouveau est arrivé
Qu'est-ce qui est arrivé ?
Le beaujolais nouveau !

However, the phrase for "something happens" using "arriver" is "il arrive quelque chose" so you should turn that into a question as "qu'est-ce qu'il est arrivé" "what went on?" _not_ "what arrived?".


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## CARNESECCHI

Still, depends what is your real question :

"Qu'est-ce qui est arrivé" (_what arrived - thanks tim_)
"La nouvelle Peugeot est arrivée"

"Qu"est-ce qu'il est arrivé" (what has happened)
"Il est arrivé que la voiture qu'on attendait n'est pas encore arrivée"


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## marget

For to happen, my dictionary gives 1) arriver, 2) se passer.
Examples: What's happened =Qu'est-ce qui s'est passé, qu'est-il arrivé
What has happened to him =  Qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé?
My dictionary is Le Robert&Collins Super Senior


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## la_cavalière

I understand your argument that, strictly adhering to the rules of grammar, it should be "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe."

However, language is created and changed and manipulated by the people, not rules of grammar_._ I think that, like it or not, this is one case where the French people have overruled the grammar rules, and "Qu'est-ce qui se passe" has become widely accepted.


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## la_cavalière

marget said:
			
		

> For to happen, my dictionary gives 1) arriver, 2) se passer.
> Examples: What's happened =Qu'est-ce qui s'est passé, qu'est-il arrivé
> What has happened to him = Qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé?
> My dictionary is Le Robert&Collins Super Senior


 
Oxford-Hachette:

happen
intransitive verb
1
(occur) arriver, se passer, se produire;
what's happening? *qu'est-ce qui se passe?;*


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## CARNESECCHI

Yes, I should have written "what has happened" for "qu'est-ce _*qu'il *_s'est passé" or "qu'est-ce qu'il est arrivé ?"
- Sorry, I fix it!


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## zaby

ça m'embête un peu de m'opposer aux francophones qui sont intervenus sur ce fil, mais je reste persuadée que les 2 formes "qu'est-ce qui se passe" et "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" sont correctes

"qu'est-ce qui se passe" -> "quelque chose se passe"
"qu'est ce qu'il se passe" -> "il se passe quelque chose"


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## CARNESECCHI

la_cavalière said:
			
		

> I understand your argument that, strictly adhering to the rules of grammar, it should be "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe."
> 
> However, language is created and changed and manipulated by the people, not rules of grammar_._ I think that, like it or not, this is one case where the French people have overruled the grammar rules, and "Qu'est-ce qui se passe" has become widely accepted.


 
The grammar rule has not been overruled. Please, read my post #11 in this thread and you'll see what I mean.
Thanks


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## zaby

Le tlfi n'a pas l'air de trouver _ce qui se passe_ incorrect :


> _À la forme interr. __Mais *qu'est-ce qui se passe*, Chrysis, nous le diras-tu?_ (LOUYS, _Aphrodite_, 1896, p.64). _Amie, me voilà! Que s'est-il passé? Je suis désolé, vraiment_ (MARTIN DU G., _Thib._, Cah. gr., 1922, p.655). -_*Qu'est-ce qui s'est passé* à Paris depuis notre départ? -Rien de spécial; il faisait chaud, dit Henri_ (BEAUVOIR, _Mandarins_, 1954, p.218).


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## CARNESECCHI

zaby said:
			
		

> ça m'embête un peu de m'opposer aux francophones qui sont intervenus sur ce fil, mais je reste persuadée que les 2 formes "qu'est-ce qui se passe" et "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe" sont correctes
> 
> "qu'est-ce qui se passe" -> "quelque chose se passe"
> "qu'est ce qu'il se passe" -> "il se passe quelque chose"


 
Oui, bien sûr, le café peut se passer, mais avec un filtre!
J'aimerais bien voir une phrase ou on mettrait le nom de ce qui se passe en sujet de "se passe", dans le sens "ils se passe quelque chose", pas "le café se passe"


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## la_cavalière

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> The grammar rule has not been overruled. Please, read my post #11 in this thread and you'll see what I mean.
> Thanks


 
Hi Carne,

I guess that I'm trying to say that "Qu'est-ce qui se passe" is now considered *correct*, as evidenced by its widespread usage in grammar books and dictionaries as well as written and spoken French.

And what about "quelque chose se passe" and "ça se passe"?


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## zaby

CARNESECCHI said:
			
		

> Oui, bien sûr, le café peut se passer, mais avec un filtre!
> J'aimerais bien voir une phrase ou on mettrait le nom de ce qui se passe en sujet de "se passe", dans le sens "ils se passe quelque chose", pas "le café se passe"


 
Je dis parfois "Quelque chose a du se passer/arriver" pour "il a du se passer/arriver quelque chose". Maintenant je ne sais plus si c'est correct... I'm confused


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## CARNESECCHI

Bon!
"il se passe" est un bloc. Si on essaie de l'ouvrir en introduisant un autre sujet, on obtient : "xxxx se passe".
Si on veut l'analyser, ce n'est pas un "se" de réciprocité (les garçons se regardent en chien de faïence), puisqu'il faut deux sujets dans ce cas , ce n'est pas un "se" de réflexivité (le garçon se regarde dans le miroir) car le sujet se "passerait" (???) lui-même.
Je suis prêt à admettre que j'ai raté quelque chose, mais je n'ai trouvé que le "se" mis pour "on" :
"on passe le café", "le café se passe"

Comprenez-moi : Je ne cherche pas à dire que ce n'est pas admis, je cherche à dire que vous, nos amis non francophones, allez systématiquement tomber sur le problème et que je trouve dommage de se contenter de la réponse "c'est comme ça, c'est tout, le peuple en a décidé ainsi", alors que la réponse pourrait être "je sais que ce n'est pas analysable avec les règles actuelles, mais c'est un usage admis, la forme analysable serait ...."


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## McCarty

After originally posting the question, I did some further research on the use of "se" with certain verbs. Unfortunately, I don't have enough posts to provide any links, but I've found at least a dozen verbs that idiomatically change meanings when preceeded by "se." Ex: se passer = to happen, s'amuser = to have fun. By definition, for something that is idiomatic, a meaning cannot be derived by analyzing the meaning of the various elements. So there can't be a literal, grammatical translation. Whether or not that makes a saying "correct" or not is a different argument, as all languages contain sayings that don't adhere to their own grammatical rules but are understood and used frequently.


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## McCarty

*il se passe quelque chose - something is happening*

if you follow the normal rules to turn that into a question it would become

qu'est-ce qu'il se passe ? or Que se passe-t-il ?

This might be grounds for a new thread, but what is the grammatical rule behind the bolded sentence. Am I correct saying the sentence literally means "It is something that is happening?" What are the rules for syntax with a word like "quelque chose"?

Merci!


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## timpeac

It's not a grammatical rule, as such, McCarty. In French there are a few verbs which always (or at least can with a certain meaning) start "il verbe xxx" whereas English would have "xxxx verbs" or maybe "there verbs" - examples -

Il reste une bouteille - one bottle is left/ there remains one bottle.
Il est des choses (literary) - there are some things
Il y a une voiture - there is a car
Il tombe des bombes - bombs are falling/there are bombs falling

The "il" in all those sentences does not refer to any specific thing - in the same way it doesn't in "il pleut" (and nor does the English "it" in "it is raining" - in fact you could view the French construction as similar to "it is raining metal" = "metal is raining down")

Not all verbs can do this (I believe - to be confirmed!!) so those that can are best learnt - in my opinion - as set phrases.


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## McCarty

Merci beaucoup. Tres utile!


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## Cath.S.

la_cavalière said:
			
		

> I understand your argument that, strictly adhering to the rules of grammar, it should be "Qu'est-ce qu'il se passe."
> 
> However, language is created and changed and manipulated by the people, not rules of grammar_._ *IMO it's even worse than that: language does what it jolly well likes!*  I think that, like it or not, this is one case where the French people have overruled the grammar rules, and "Qu'est-ce qui se passe" has become widely accepted.


Mon grain de sel, for what it's worth. 
Qu'est-ce qui se passe does not shock me in the slightest, mais je ne suis pas une puriste.


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## CARNESECCHI

Je voudrais pas qu'on me croie chiant! J'ai écrit (#13)
- Believe me : when I saw "_qu'est-ce qui se passe_", I had no reaction, it's so common. -


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## Cath.S.

> Je voudrais pas qu'on me croie chiant!


Notre opinion est faite, Luc, il est largement trop tard ;     il ne te reste plus qu'à changer de pseudonyme et à parler djeunz !


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## kelliwisethebrave

sorry to drag out this old thread...but I thought "qu'est-ce qui se passe" was correct because "ce qui" means what, and you use "ce qui" if whatever it is, is the subject/doing the action, and you use "ce que" if there is another subject/thing/person doing the action in the sentence. 

For example, in the imperative:
Dis-moi ce qui est arrivé. (ce qui=what, does that action)
Dis-moi ce que tu fais. (ce que=what, tu does the action)
Dis-moi ce qui s'est passé ou Dis-moi ce qui se passe (ce qui=what, does the action) (is this correct?)

Now, the same "demand," but as a question:
qu'est-ce qui est arrivé?
qu'est-ce que tu fais?
qu'est-ce qui se passe?

Am I really far off? Why does the il have to be in there if "what" is the subject of the sentence? Any help in understanding would be great. I sincerely apologize if I missed something earlier in the thread that answers the question.


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## timpeac

What you've put sounds right to me, but I don't know which "il" you are refering to.


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## marget

If we are using "qu'est-ce qu'il se passe", the indirect question used with the imperative would be "dis-moi ce qu'il se passe", I think.


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## goonie78

CARNESECCHI said:


> 1st example
> - La nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours"
> - Qu'est ce qui se passe de roue de secours ?
> - La nouvelle voiture
> 2nd example :
> - La nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours
> - Qu'est ce qu'il se passe ?
> - Il se passe que la nouvelle voiture de passe de roue de secours



Bonjour Carnesecchi,

Est-ce que vous vouliez dire "voiture Se passe de..." dans vos exemples?  Un peu tardive cette question, je sais.

merci!


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## Quintis

Yes I believe it is a typo on his/her part that was copied and pasted in the second example othewise the sentences would make no sense.

Interesting thread...


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