# avere la pretesa di/pretendere di



## Peppe77

Ciò che è scritto in questa lettera servirà solo ad esporti le mie ragioni e non ha alcuna altra pretesa.

(what it's more interesting to me is: "non ha alcuna altra prestesa")

My attempt:

_What is written in this letter will try to expose you my reasons and it hasn't any other *claim*?_


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## effeundici

_hasn't??_

Propongo_ : does not have any other demand_


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## Leo57

Peppe77 said:


> _What is written in this letter will try to expose you my reasons and it hasn't any other *claim*?_



Hi there
This is not easy for me as pretendere seems to have many different meanings but _claim_ seems more feasible than _demand_.  For all you experts out there is this close? 
_The content of this letter is solely to convey my reasons/reasoning and has no other claim/agenda._

   (It feels as though the letter is "just this" and not pretending to be anything else. I'm really trying to learn!!!)

Ciao
Leo


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## Peppe77

anche a me sembra migliore "claim"....però non so. Quindi:

_The content of this letter is solely to convey my reasons and has no other claim?_

Qualche altro suggerimento?


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## evrix

Yes, I vote for _claim_. An alternative version: _I am solely writing to you in order to convey my reasons and with no other claims._


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## Peppe77

scusate mea culpa...stava scritto anche qui: http://www.wordreference.com/enit/claim

mi era sfuggito. Sorry.


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## lux_

Salve a tutti,

come tradurreste "pretesa" in una frase del tipo:

"Per fare una buona tesi non devi solo presentare un argomento, ma devi trattare qualcosa che non e' mai stato trattato prima".

-"Si', ma io non ho la pretesa di scoprire nulla di nuovo... "


Pretense or pretention?
qual'e' la differenza tra i due?


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## Peppe77

Provo io:

Yes, but I don't demand to find out anything new. 



> Pretense or pretention pretension?


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## Paulfromitaly

lux_ said:


> Salve a tutti,
> 
> come tradurreste "pretesa" in una frase del tipo:
> 
> "Per fare una buona tesi non devi solo presentare un argomento, ma devi trattare qualcosa che non e' mai stato trattato prima".
> 
> -"Si', ma io non ho la pretesa di scoprire nulla di nuovo... "
> 
> 
> Pretense or pretention?
> qual'e' la differenza tra i due?



Si può dire "to have the pretension to doing something" ma non sono certo traduca esattemente "avere la pretesa di/pretendere di"


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## gandolfo

Hi Paul
You could also use......to claim to or to pretend

"Yes, but I don't claim/pretend that I have discovered anything new"


EDIT
Using pretentious I'd say:

"Yes, but I'm not that pretentious to claim that I have discovered anything new"


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## Paulfromitaly

gandolfo said:


> Hi Paul
> You could also use......to claim to or to pretend
> 
> "Yes, but I don't claim/pretend that I have discovered anything new"
> 
> 
> EDIT
> Using pretentious I'd say:
> 
> "Yes, but I'm not that pretentious to claim that I have discovered anything new"



Hello traveller 

I guess we Italians would like to use "to pretend" in this context since it sounds so similar to "pretendere", but I always have the feeling that native speakers mostly use "pretend" to mean "fingere".

Non pretendo/non ho la pretesa di insegnare la fisica a Stephen Hawking.
Which is the more idiomatic?

I don't pretend to teach Stephen Hawking physics.
I don't claim to teach Stephen Hawking physics.
I'm not so pretentious as to teach Stephen Hawking physics.


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Which is the more idiomatic?
> 
> I don't pretend to teach Stephen Hawking physics.
> I don't claim to teach Stephen Hawking physics.
> I'm not so pretentious as to teach Stephen Hawking physics.


Blimey, good question. 

Without thinking about it I'd probably use the first sentence. I don't know why, but the second one sounds a little odd to me and the third one's too long. De gustibus, I daresay...


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## gandolfo

Paulfromitaly said:


> Hello traveller  (almost done home tomorrow!!!)
> 
> I guess we Italians would like to use "to pretend" in this context since it sounds so similar to "pretendere", but I always have the feeling that native speakers mostly use "pretend" to mean "fingere".
> 
> Non pretendo/non ho la pretesa di insegnare la fisica a Stephen Hawking.
> Which is the more idiomatic?
> 
> I don't pretend to teach Stephen Hawking physics.
> I don't claim that I'd be able to/can teach Stephen Hawking physics. Is what I'd go for
> I'm not so pretentious as to teach Stephen Hawking physics.


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## Paulfromitaly

> I don't claim that I'd be able to/can teach Stephen Hawking physics.



This is slightly different though as it's clear from your sentence that I haven't actually tried to teach SH physics, but I've only claimed I'd be able to.

Let's try with another sentence.

Mio figlio di 5 anni pretende di insegnarmi la matematica (he doesn't claim he can teach me maths, he actually tries to do it as if he didn't realise I know much more about maths than he does)

My 5 year old son claims to teach me maths?
My 5 year old son pretends to teach me maths?


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Mio figlio di 5 anni pretende di insegnarmi la matematica (he doesn't claim he can teach me maths, he actually tries to do it as if he didn't realise I know much more about maths than he does)
> 
> My 5 year old son claims to teach me maths?
> My 5 year old son pretends to teach me maths?


Now, here I'd read _pretend_ to mean "fingere", so that doesn't work.  And I still find _claim_ followed by the infinitive odd (as I see Gandie does as well, given her correction of your other sentence), but even if we change the sentence (He claims he's teaching me Maths), the meaning of _claim_ changes to "sostenere" so it doesn't render the idea behind the Italian sentence at all.
_
My son insists on teaching me/trying to teach me Maths.

_ Gandie?


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> Now, here I'd read _pretend_ to mean "fingere", so that doesn't work.  And I still find _claim_ followed by the infinitive odd (as I see Gandie does as well, given her correction of your other sentence), but even if we change the sentence (He claims he's teaching me Maths), the meaning of _claim_ changes to "sostenere" so it doesn't render the idea behind the Italian sentence at all.
> _
> My son insists on teaching me/trying to teach me Maths.
> 
> _ Gandie?


Right 

I think the main problem with "pretendere" is that when we say that people "pretendono di fare qualcosa" it's not just something they claim they can do, it's something they actually do.


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## You little ripper!

Would _My 5 year old son purports to be teaching me maths_ translate the Italian sentence?


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## Paulfromitaly

You little ripper! said:


> Would _My 5 year old son purports to be teaching me maths_ translate the Italian sentence?



I'm not too sure..

Another example:

Nonostante Mr X stia ancora imparando l'italiano, pretende di insegnarmi come usare il congiuntivo. 

This means Mr X is so conceited/bigheaded that he has the chick to teach me how to use the subjunctive in Italian, although he's a learner and I'm a native speaker.
It's not just something he claims he's able to do, it's something he actually does or at least tries to do.


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## You little ripper!

Paulfromitaly said:


> Another example:
> 
> Nonostante Mr stia ancora imparando l'italiano, pretende di insegnarmi come usare il congiuntivo.
> 
> This means Mr X is so conceited/bigheaded that he has the chick to teach me how to use the subjunctive in Italian, although he's a learner and I'm a native speaker.
> It's not just something he claims he's able to do, it's something he actually does or at least tries to do.


I would translate that, _ Mr X __presumes to teach me (a native) how to use the subjunctive in Italian, when he'__s still learning the language__!
_


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## CPA

Ammesso che "pretend" abbia ormai assunto il più comune significato di "fingere" e quindi può dar adito a malintesi, per quanto riguarda _my five-year-old son_, direi _...thinks he can teach me maths_. Idem per Mr X. Oppure, più forte, _has the cheek _(not "chick")/_nerve_/_gall to think he can...

_Per SH direi: _I'm not claiming/saying I can teach SH physics._

The trouble is, "pretendere" can also mean _expect/demand/insist.

_"Pretendo che tu gli faccia delle scuse" = _I insist/demand that you apologise to him.
_"Non pretendo che tu sia perfetto" = _I don't expect you to be perfect.

_Ho delle perplessità riguardo a "pretentious".


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## Paulfromitaly

CPA said:


> Ammesso che "pretend" abbia ormai assunto il più comune significato di "fingere" e quindi può dar adito a malintesi, per quanto riguarda _my five-year-old son_, direi _...thinks he can teach me maths_. Idem per Mr X. Oppure, più forte, _has the cheek _(not "chick")/_nerve_/_gall to think he can...
> 
> _Per SH direi: _I'm not claiming/saying I can teach SH physics._



Sono d'accordo sul fatto che se "pretendere" significa "sostenere a parole che" allora "to claim" sia la soluzione giusta.
Il mio problema è l'altro esempio, dove prentendere si riferisce ad un qualcosa che viene fatto, non solo sostenuto a parole

_Nonostante Mr X stia ancora imparando l'italiano, pretende di insegnarmi come usare il congiuntivo._

In questo esempio Mr X non sostiene di potermi insegnare ad usare il congiuntivo, ma mi corregge proprio o mi dice come dovrei usarlo..la differenza è sostanziale e secondo me "to claim" in questa frase non è corretto.


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## london calling

You little ripper! said:


> I would also translate that, _Mr X __presumes to teach me (a native) how to use the subjunctive in Italian, when he'__s still learning the language__!
> _



Yes, nice one!.


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## Paulfromitaly

You little ripper! said:


> I would also translate that, _ Mr X __presumes to teach me (a native) how to use the subjunctive in Italian, when he'__s still learning the language__!
> _



Yes, I didn't notice it but I think it's the best option so far.


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## You little ripper!

Paulfromitaly said:


> Yes, I didn't notice it .....


That's probably my fault, Paul. I edited the post because I decided that 'presumes' worked better than what I had originally suggested.


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## gandolfo

Ciao

My penny's worth:

"Mr.X *has got the nerve *to teach me....."


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## Paulfromitaly

gandolfo said:


> Ciao
> 
> My penny's worth:
> 
> "Mr.X *has got the nerve *to teach me....."



Yes, I think that the nerve/cheek may work too in an informal context and "presumption" in a more formal one


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Yes, I think that the nerve/cheek may work too in an informal context and "presumption" in a more formal one


I'd probably add a _bloody_ (nerve/cheek) to that!

But not when talking about a little boy of 5, of course.


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> I'd probably add a _bloody_ (nerve/cheek) to that!
> 
> But not when talking about a little boy of 5, of course.


Of course (little buggers  )


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## giovannino

There is one particularly common use of _avere la pretesa di, _always in the negative, as in _questo studio non ha la pretesa di essere esaustivo _(maybe Charles's _purport _would fit quite well here) or _questo articolo non ha la pretesa di rispondere a tutti gli interrogativi _(would _purport _work here?).


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## Paulfromitaly

giovannino said:


> There is one particularly common use of _avere la pretesa di, _always in the negative, as in _questo studio non ha la pretesa di essere esaustivo _(maybe Charles's _purport _would fit quite well here) or _questo articolo non ha la pretesa di rispondere a tutti gli interrogativi _(would _purport _work here?).


I'd use claim in this context.


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## giovannino

There is an example in the entry for _purport _in the_ Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary_ (link) which suggests that _purport _might well work in the kind of context I had in mind (a preface to a book, an academic article, a book review etc): _The book does not purport to be a complete history of the period._


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## baldpate

giovannino said:


> There is one particularly common use of _avere la pretesa di, _always in the negative, as in _questo studio non ha la pretesa di essere esaustivo _(maybe Charles's _purport _would fit quite well here) or _questo articolo non ha la pretesa di rispondere a tutti gli interrogativi _(would _purport _work here?).


In my opinion, it does.

In the positive use, "to purport" usually has, to a lesser or greater degree, the sense of "to _falsely_ claim".  In the negative, this sense is greatly reduced, there being little practical distinction between "to not claim" and "to not falsely claim" : in either case there is no claim, therefore the falsity or validy of the hypothetical claim is largely irrelevant. 

To take the example "_questo articolo non ha la pretesa di rispondere a tutti gli interrogativi_", I think both "doesn't claim" and "doesn't purport" work fine.  To my ears, "doesn't claim" is a slightly cooler, more objective statement, and "doesn't purport" is a_ slightly_ stronger denial.


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## GavinW

Paulfromitaly said:


> Yes, I think that the nerve/cheek may work too in an informal context and "presumption" in a more formal one



Right, but I get the impression you've dismissed the other suggestion ("He thinks he can teach me maths"), apparently because you think that this English phrase does not express the idea that the kid has already taught you maths (in the past). That would be wrong. This expression ("He thinks..."), with its present tense verb, is understood as being elastic with regard to the actual tense of the action of the verb (it extends into the past).
A similar expression/usage, with identical meaning, is "He tries to teach me maths". This is surprisingly idiomatic, very natural, and almost colloquial, but by no means informal. But here the tense of the verb is sensitive to the time of the action, and will change with the context. 



giovannino said:


> There is one particularly common use of _avere la pretesa di, _always in the negative, as in _questo studio non ha la pretesa di essere esaustivo _(maybe Charles's _purport _would fit quite well here) or _questo articolo non ha la pretesa di rispondere a tutti gli interrogativi _(would _purport _work here?).



Yes, purport works very well here, but it's still not the only option, of course. As a test, we can try the old "reversible" trick: If you have the English verb "purport", in this kind of example, how would you go about translating it? I think you know the answer to that one, g! In fact, I think you were seeking confirmation of a strong belief you had. Other options here: presume (as already discussed); and Paul's "claim" (simple, but satisfactory, although devoid of the value-judgment, ie criticism, sometimes inherent in the Italian verb/verbal phrase in question).

Earlier suggestions included "pretentious". This is wrong, or at least highly misleading. The meaning is wrong (at least the main, more obvious meaning). It looks like the adjective for the noun "pretention" but it (usually) isn't (despite what the dictionaries *still* say). The word that does work here, invece, is "presumptious". In fact I don't think anyone (but forgive me if I missed it [EDIT: Ops! I now see Paul himself discussed it!]) has yet suggested "He has the presumption to (think he can) teach me how to [suck eggs/etc]". This works very well for many contexts considered here, and is surprisingly neutral in register (ie it's not formal: people use it in ordinary conversation etc).
HTH and HYAWM (hope-you-agree-with-me) ;-)

EDIT: @baldpate: claim vs purport - yes, that's more or less the distinction. But I'd say purport is usually formal, whereas claim is neutral, of course. Also, I think the connotation of "purport/not purport" is always that the false claim is, in fact, probably slightly ridiculous or absurd.


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## Paulfromitaly

GavinW said:


> Right, but I get the impression you've dismissed the other suggestion ("He thinks he can teach me maths"), apparently because you think that this English phrase does not express the idea that the kid has already taught you maths (in the past). That would be wrong. This expression ("He thinks..."), with its present tense verb, is understood as being elastic with regard to the actual tense of the action of the verb (it extends into the past).



I see your point of course.
I believe that "He thinks he can teach me.." is not my first option because when I translate it, _literally_ (inaccurately?), into Italian the meaning changes a little.  
"Pensa di portermi insegnare.." doesn't imply he has tried to (it could simply be a conclusion I've come to which is based upon his attitude), whereas "pretende di potermi insegnare" does.


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## GavinW

Paulfromitaly said:


> _literally_ (inaccurately?)



Yes, here, "literal = inaccurate", because, as I said, it's an idiomatic use of the verb "think". ;-)


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## baldpate

GavinW said:


> Also, I think the connotation of "purport/not purport" is always that the false claim is, in fact, probably slightly ridiculous or absurd.


Yes, I agree - patently false (to any right-thinking person), therefore ridiculous/absurd.  I still feel that sense is much weekened in the negative usage, although the residual sense of "false and absurd" of course makes the denial 'warmer', more emphatic.


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## CPA

Piccola variante:

He thinks he can teach _me_ maths = Crede di poter insegnare la matematica _a me_. 

"Think" spesso abbraccia anche la sfumatura leggermente diversa di "credere".


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## You little ripper!

CPA said:


> Piccola variante:
> 
> He thinks he can teach _me_ maths = Crede di poter insegnare la matematica _a me_.
> 
> "Think" spesso abbraccia anche la sfumatura leggermente diversa di "credere".


I like that one! So simple, yet so ............ (adjective to be supplied by reader )


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