# Pit / well (hole)



## ThomasK

I think there is a link between both 'well' and 'pit': they are like "holes" in the ground ('trou' seem to be the most common name for 'pit' in French). But of course one is 'giving', the other is empty - or that would be my way of describing the difference. 

We could call it '*bron' *perhaps, 'source', if flowing, but in general a well is called *waterput *(bronput ?) and the pit is *een put (gat *(hole) can only be used when referrint to something shallow or maybe very narrow)... [_De wensput_, wishing well, is not very common, I'd say] 

The word '*put' i*s used in words translating 'exhaustion' (_uitputting_, out-pit) and 'exhausted' (_uitgeput_), 'inexhaustible' (_onuitputtelijk_).


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## Encolpius

*Hungarian *--- there is no link: well = kút; pit = gödör, verem


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## ThomasK

I just checked at Google Translate, and thus was reminded of the word *'fountain'*, or _fontein _in Dutch.

 Funny thing: it suggested 'stack' for _verem_. It reminds me of our _put _: one can _putten uit een put_, take from the well/pit, if it is not _onuitputtelijk _(inexhaustible). Is the association with 'a pit' there when you use _kút, _as I do not strictly speaking associate anything _pit_-ish with a fountain. Has any of those words led to verbs or ...? 

Of course our _uitputten _reminds of the French _*épuiser,*_ whereas they call a pit _*un trou*_, or at least more often than *un puit*.


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## Encolpius

You see sometimes Google is wrong....verem is a type of "gödör" used for store food or trap animals kuil?
I have found only "vermel" [put into a "verem"] - but I never heard it...gödör no verb


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## ThomasK

I know I cannot really rely Google, but sometimes it gives an indication. But indeed: _kuil_, some kind of pit for fodder- but that is kind of a pit as well (valkuil = a pit trap..)...


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## ger4

Apparently in Estonian both terms are related:
_kaevis_ - pit
_kaev_ - well
[The suffix -is isn't a (productive) derivational suffix, as far as I'm aware, so I don't know _how_ they are related and whether one of them is more 'basic' than the other one...]

In German, I can't see a link:
_Grube, Kuhle_ (_kuil_ in Dutch?) - pit
_Quelle_ - well


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## ThomasK

Do you associate a Quelle with a pit, Holger? We don't associate bronnen, sources, with pits strictly speaking, but a well in English seems to be associated with it...


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## ger4

I wouldn't really associate _Quelle_ with a pit but of course we distinguish between natural and artificial wells in German. An artificial well is a _Brunnen_. Most people, I think, would associate a _Brunnen_ with a 'hole in the ground' or a (deep) pit.


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## Armas

Holger2014 said:


> Apparently in Estonian both terms are related:
> _kaevis_ - pit
> _kaev_ - well
> [The suffix -is isn't a (productive) derivational suffix, as far as I'm aware, so I don't know _how_ they are related and whether one of them is more 'basic' than the other one...]



In Finnish they are not related.
kaivo = well
kuoppa, monttu = pit

Kaivo is derived from kaivaa = to dig. Other derivations are kaivos = mine, kaivanto = trench, kaivaus = excavation.


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## ger4

Is _kaivo_ in Finnish an artificial well or is it a more general term, as in English? (In Estonian, _kaev_ is an artificial well - _kaevama_ also means 'to dig' - while the noun for a natural well is _allikas_).


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## Armas

Kaivo is an artificial well. Natural well is lähde (lähteä = to leave, set off).


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## ger4

Thanks! Always interesting to compare these two languages... So at least in Estonian, the link seems to be obvious: 
_kaevama_ (to dig) --> digging, you create a _kaevis_ (a pit) --> ... which might eventually fill with water and turn into a _kaev _(a well).


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## ThomasK

Great to read about that. Very pleased to hear to hear about the natural well as well!


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## apmoy70

In Greek:


Well: *«πηγάδι»* [piˈɣaði] (neut.) < Byz. *«πηγάδιον» pēgádion* (neut.), diminutive of the Classical fem. noun *«πηγὴ» pēgḕ* --> _well, hot spring, source_. 
Its etymology is unclear; according to Beekes _"since 'wells' are often denominated as being 'cold' (Lith. šaltinis (source, spring) < šaltas (cold), OCS studenьcь < studenъ) a derivation from the root of *«πήγνυμαι» pḗgnumai*, 'to get stiff', has been proposed"_ < Classical v. *«πήγνυμι» pḗgnumĭ* --> _to fix, stick, join, congeal, coagulate_ (PIE *peh₂ǵ-, _to coagulate, fix_ cf Skt. पाजस् (pájas), _firmness_; Lat. pangere, _to fasten, fix, set_; Proto-Germanic *fanhaną > Ger. fangen, Eng. fang, Dt. vangen, Isl. fá, D./Nor./Swe. få).


The ancients called the _well_, *«φρέᾱρ» pʰréār* (neut.) which produced the MoGr *«φρεάτιο»* [freˈati.o] (neut.) --> _manhole, elevator shaft_ (PIE *bʰreh₁-ur-, _source, well_ cf Arm. ակնաղբյուր (aknaghbyur), _well, wellspring_). 


Pit: *«Λάκκος»* [ˈlakos] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«λάκκος» lákkŏs* --> _pond, cistern, pit, reservoir_ (possibly from PIE *loku-, _lake, pond_ cf Lat. lacus, _lake, pond, basin, reservoir_ > It./Sp./Por. lago, Fr./Rom. lac).

So, no apparent connection I'm afraid.


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## Gavril

Holger2014 said:


> I wouldn't really associate _Quelle_ with a pit but of course we distinguish between natural and artificial wells in German.



The usual term in English for a natural water source is _spring_, i.e. a place where the water springs out of the ground by itself. "spring" and "source" are the two main English translations of Finnish _lähde_.

_well_ usually refers to a hole dug by people to access a water source, i.e. it is normally artificial by definition. The term _natural well_ suggests (to me at least) a hole that functions like a well, but was not dug by people -- it doesn't refer to a natural water source in general.



ThomasK said:


> I think there is a link between both 'well' and 'pit': they are like "holes" in the ground ('trou' seem to be the most common name for 'pit' in French).



The English word *pit* itself shows this connection: it's based on Latin _puteus _"well" (the source of Spanish _pozo_, French _puits_ and other Romance words for "well").


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## ThomasK

Interesting background information to get the distinctions clearer. Then there is also a *fountain*, which - so I gather from etymonline.com - is a combination of water collecting in a pool... I am not sure about what term we would use in Dutch for that...

BTW:= I think that so far we have not had language that associate the concept (and word) 'hole' with that of 'pit', except in French.

@Apmoy: as far as I can see, the link with stiffness, stability, is not present in another language. I cannot see the semantic link myself either (just like *pangere *and _*vangen*_, 'to catch' in Dutch). I you do, please tell me!


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## ger4

I have to correct myself, of course:


Holger2014 said:


> _Grube _- pit
> _Brunnen_ - well
> _Quelle_ - spring; source


This should be more accurate...


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: as far as I can see, the link with stiffness, stability, is not present in another language. I cannot see the semantic link myself either (just like *pangere *and _*vangen*_, 'to catch' in Dutch). I you do, please tell me!


Hi TK,

The theory is that since in many languages of the IE family, the word for _well/spring_ derives from the word for _cold_ (the well water is cold etc), Beekes then suggests that the Classical Greek word for the _spring, well, source_, «πηγὴ» should follow the same pattern and derive from «πήγνυμι» the verb for _joining, coagulating_, which also produces the Greek word for _ice_ (which is cold), *«πάγος» págŏs* (masc.). 
Therefore (according to Beekes) *«πηγὴ» pēgḕ* (Doric *«παγά» păgá*) and *«πάγος» págŏs* might be related.
Far-fetched I agree, yet plausible (and intriguing).


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## ThomasK

But this 'detour' via ice helps a lot! Thanks!


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## momai

*In Arabic:

*نبع nabe3-ينبوع yanbu3 both are from the root n-b-3 ,meaning "spring" see here,the word 3ayn(eye) can be also used for a spring.
On the other hand 
جبّ jubb- بئر be'er both mean an artificial well .
The word for "pit" is ħufra حفرةwhich is derived from the verb to dig ħafara.
A hole is thuqb and to make a hole is thagaba
So they are all not connected in Arabic .


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## ThomasK

I beg your pardon: can the word for *'eye' *be used to refer to a spring? --- 

The words for* 'hole' and 'pit'*: do you mean the words are not etymologically linked, or semantically? Can you ever interchange them?

As for the artificial well words: do they turn up in *place names*? (Id. for the others: I think it is common for placenames to refer to such features, as in Paderborn, Heilbronn, Bournemouth (bourne perhaps), Bloemfontein (?), ... )


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## ilocas2

In Czech the word for well is also derived from the word for cold

*studna* - well
*studený* - cold


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## momai

ThomasK said:


> I beg your pardon: can the word for *'eye' *be used to refer to a spring? ---
> see here please!
> The words for* 'hole' and 'pit'*: do you mean the words are not etymologically linked, or semantically? Can you ever interchange them?
> Sorry,I am not a linguist . I really don't know what those terms mean but the point is that they are derived from different roots so they are not connected.
> You might use them in Colloquial Arabic interchangeably but not always!!.I am not really sure about standard Arabic so again I'm sorry.
> As for the artificial well words: do they turn up in *place names*? (Id. for the others: I think it is common for placenames to refer to such features, as in Paderborn, Heilbronn, Bournemouth (bourne perhaps), Bloemfontein (?), ... )  Yes,there are plenty of those villages in Syria.


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