# EN: a view over/of the city - preposition



## sbbird

Hello, 

In this sentence which preposition is correct?

"The tower gives a super view (over or of) the city."

Thank you for your reply.


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## elroy

of


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## Maître Capello

_Of_ is certainly the most common preposition. Yet _over_ is also an option when talking about the view from an elevated point such as a tower.


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## elroy

Maître Capello said:


> Yet _over_ is also an option when talking about the view from an elevated point such as a tower.


 Not for me.


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## Steven David

sbbird said:


> In this sentence which preposition is correct?
> 
> "The tower gives a super view (over or of) the city."



The preposition "of" is correct here.

The tower gives us a super view of the city.

For "over" to make sense, we would have to be flying above the city. From that viewpoint, we could say that "we are over the city".

The preposition "of", generally, means "belong to". The view belongs to the city. Without the city, there is no view. This is why "of" is the correct preposition.

We think of the view as "coming from the city", and, in this way, "the view is of the city".


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## Maître Capello

Steven David said:


> For "over" to make sense, we would have to be flying above the city.


What about a bird's-eye view of the city from the top of a tall tower or a skyscraper? I'm not a native, but _over_ wouldn't strike me as odd in that case.


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## elroy

Personally, I would still stay "view of" in that case.  To indicate the specific type of view, I would add "bird's-eye," exactly as you've done ("a bird's-eye view of the city").  For me, "view over the city" simply doesn't collocate.


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## Jektor

Maître Capello said:


> _*Of*_ is certainly the most common preposition. Yet _*over*_ is also an option when talking about the view from an elevated point such as a tower.


.
I agree.

"I was going to miss the lovely view out *over* the line of roofs to the west...
forum.wordreference.com - view-out-over-the-line-of-roofs - #1714090
google.as - view *over* the city

If you have a high viewpoint, you could also say "across" the city:
"I had a view *across* west London which would not have disgraced a skyscraper...
forum.wordreference.com - skyscraper view across the city - #1033863
google.as - view *across* the city
.


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## Steven David

Maître Capello said:


> What about a bird's-eye view of the city from the top of a tall tower or a skyscraper? I'm not a native, but _over_ wouldn't strike me as odd in that case.




"view over the city" << This is not something I would normally think of saying and not something I think I would normally hear. However, this phrase comes up in search. The context is advertising for tourism. So it's not unheard of, and it's not impossible. It just doesn't sound like something someone would normally say outside of the context of tourism.

With an elevated view such as being in a tall building, the first phrase that comes to mind is "view of the city". And, outside of the context of tourism, I believe that is the first phrase that comes to mind for native speakers, generally speaking, when looking down at a city from an elevated place such as a tall building.

In other words, other than that, imagining myself in a tall building, I can only think that I would say "view of the city".

a bird's-eye view of the city << This phrase works. It makes sense and sounds like something someone would say.

a view over the city <<  The idea of "over the city" calls to mind being in an airplane. That's the only way I could imagine saying "over the city". However, again, this phrase comes up in the context of being in an elevated place when advertising for tourism. It seems to be a promotional phrase for cities.

This phrase also seems to come up in the context of pictures: photography and painting.

In the end, native speakers will first think of saying "view of the city". This is the normal and usual phrase for everyday conversation.

"panoramic view of the city" << This is another possibility. This phrase is possible but not frequently used in regular, everyday conversation.

So, in general, when there are a few phrases to choose from, the phrase someone chooses to say is based very much on context and a speaker's viewpoint in that moment. In this case, I believe we speak of a phrase that is context-specific.

Maybe, someone would say "view over the city" when speaking about the view from a hotel room in a big city. This would be advertising or promotional, again.


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## sbbird

Thank you so much Steven David for this clear and great explanation. It was really helpful.


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## Steven David

You're very welcome, sbbird.

I'm glad you find it helpful.


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## Steven David

There's more about "view over the city" versus "view of the city".

A "view" can be "over the city", but a person is not over the city. This is why we don't, at first, think of saying "view over the city" when we imagine ourselves in a tall building.

We use prepositions based on where we are located physically. This is our perspective. We don't use prepositions based on where our vision extends. Our vision extends over a city, but we are not over a city when looking down at a city from a tall building. This is why I said only being in an airplane would cause me to say "over the city". Looking down at a city from an airplane, we would, in fact, really be over a city.

Maybe, an airline pilot would announce to the passengers just after the plane takes off that they would see "a view over the city".

So to put this briefly, we choose a preposition based on where we are positioned physically or where others are positioned physically, not necessarily where our vision extends. Our physical position is our perspective.

Advertising for tourism seems to attempt to enhance this perspective by using the phrase "view over the city".

In speaking of tourism, I suppose "enhance" would really mean "make it sound better than it really is" (some types of marketing).


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## sbbird

So if we are on a mountain, do we still have to say a view *of* the city from the mountain?


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## Steven David

Yes, that's what I would say. It's not that we "have to say it". It's more that our perspective of things has to do with where we are positioned. This causes us to first think, "view of the city". (Also, this is a vocabulary topic (or a perspective and logic topic), not a grammar topic. Prepositions are vocabulary.)

The other possible phrases are context-specific. "We have to say it" only means that this is what most native speakers say most of the time -- and there's a *reason* for it. Some people just learn to say something without it causing a question. Others want to know why we say it *that *way. This is the basic idea: Our choice of preposition in ordinary circumstances has to do with where we are positioned physically, not where our vision extends. If I am on a mountain, I cannot say that "I'm over the city", and therefore I cannot say that "I have a view over the city".

Birds and Superman have "a view over the city".     They fly "over the city".

We're looking down at the city from the mountain, and we have a view of the city.

Again, it's perspective. A person standing on a mountain, or perched on a mountaintop, is not "over the city". So, again, it's "a view of the city".

In a simple way, without explanation, if we took a survey of native speakers of English, we would find that the overwhelming majority or the vast  majority choose "a view of the city". They would not care why they say it that way, and being able to explain it would not matter to them.

In such a survey, I would not know how to account for those who do not choose the phrase "view of the city" as their first choice or the common one that we usually use.

One thing is certain: There's always a way to explain something even if we don't know how to. We can think, we figure it out, we can find the explanation.


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## pointvirgule

I'm with Capello and Jektor. If you can *over*look a landscape from a high vantage point, you can say you're enjoying a view over it. Besides, there are plenty of examples of _view over_ in actual published books, as a search in Google Books will confirm.


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## Steven David

Yes, they are in books. I would wonder what type of books. Are they tourism books? Are they marketing or promotional books?

With these questions, I would only consider reviewing my previous posts in which I comment on this.


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## Jektor

@ Steven David: I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
This may be another UK/US language difference...


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## Steven David

It may be. No need to apologize for disagreeing. However, if you'd like, I'll forgive you.


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## In-Su

pointvirgule said:


> Besides, there are plenty of examples of _view over_ in actual published books, as a search in Google Books will confirm.


Je ne crois pas que qui que ce soit dans cette discussion ait affirmé que _view over_ soit complètement impossible. La locution _a view over the city_, en revanche, prête manifestement à débat. Et en parlant de Google Books, voici les résultats de la recherche _<"a view over the city">_ :


> “the medieval walls of Chester would indeed have allowed Lucian a _view over the city_ and across its surrounding landscape” (_Mapping the Medieval City: Space, Place and Identity in Chester, c. 1200-1600_, University of Wales Press)
> “standing alone, on the hill at Woodland Cemetery, and stretching his _view _over_ the city_, lying in the bosom of a valley” (_A Sketch of the History of the City of Dayton_, Maskell E. Curwen)
> “The view over the city [from the not so tall Minčeta Tower in Dubrovnik, Croatia] itself was fascinating.” (_Two Tickets to Dubrovnik_, Angus Kennedy)
> “we have seen again and again, the effect of this dome in all the distant prospects of Oxford : we have seen from the leads of the roof, a fine *bird's eye* view over the city” (_The University and City of Oxford;: Displayed in a Series of Seventy-two Views,_ Rowley Lascelles)
> “It's in the Europahuset building, one of the tallest in the city, a 10-minute walk from the Central Train Station and one minute from Tivoli. Most rooms have their own private bathroom with shower and a great view over the city.” (_Denmark Travel Adventures_, Elizabet Olesen)
> “the steep outcrop of Solomon's Throne, which is an important Muslim pilgrimage site as well as a popular place for locals and visitors alike to enjoy the view over the city” (_Kyrgyzstan: The Bradt Travel Guide_, Laurence Mitchell)
> “[...] to the north tower on the city walls. From there I knew I would have the best view over the city and the surrounding countryside.” (_River God: A Novel of Ancient Egypt_, Wilbur Smith)
> “_Giardino degli Aranci_ (Orange Garden) which offers a magnificent view over the city, the municipal rose garden, and the church of Santa Prisca” (_Roma e la Città del Vaticano. Guida completa per itinerari_, Sonia Gallico)
> “A fine *bird's-eye* view over the city may also be enjoyed from the exterior of the dome.” (_Walks in Oxford: comprising an original, historical, and descriptive account of the Colleges, Halls and Public Building of the University_, W. M. Wade)



On constate en effet un certain nombre d'exemples (colorés en vert) où la préposition _over_ est utilisée indépendamment, c'est-à-dire sans que son emploi soit forcé par un autre élément de la phrase. Plus d'exemples... Est-ce une différence entre l'anglais britannique et l'anglais américain ? Les auteurs des citations ci-dessus sont malheureusement difficiles à identifier.


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## Steven David

This has to do with what is written as opposed to what is first normally spoken in everyday conversation.

The phrase, "view over the city", is not impossible. It's a question of who says it and when. Or it's a question of who writes it and for what purpose.

The first choice for native speakers of English in conversation (and simple writing) is "view of the city".

The examples cited above are not usual for conversational English. Or, in other words, they don't read like representations of ordinary, everyday dialogue.


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## In-Su

Steven David said:


> The examples cited above are not usual for conversational English. Or, in other words, they don't read like representations of ordinary, everyday dialogue.


I'm not saying they are, my friend. But then again, this thread was never about spoken English specifically.


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## Steven David

Okay, I understand you are not saying that they are. Yes, I understand that this is not about spoken English specifically. However, given how the original question was posted, I believe it's a good idea to distinguish between ordinary, everyday conversation and contexts that are more specific. Replies to questions such as this can influence what someone decides to use in spoken English.


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## Hermione Golightly

Steven David said:


> For "over" to make sense, we would have to be flying above the city. From that viewpoint, we could say that "we are over the city".



If I am on the _London Eye_ or on top of the_ Eiffel Tower_ or any high tower, including skyscrapers I would say "view over the city". It is of course a view _of_ the city too, the view below and around. I am looking from above, even though I am not flying.
Prepositions are notoriously difficult to use correctly and tend to lack logic.


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## Steven David

I would say "view of the city". That would be the first choice for most native speakers of English. Other than that, this could be a difference between American English and British English.

Prepositions have meaning and logic.

They are not notoriously difficult to use correctly at all.

They become difficult to learn and explain when we do not understand that they have meaning and logic.

The logic comes from what they mean.

Also, prepositions become easier to understand when we understand that prepositions are not a grammar topic. Prepositions are vocabulary. And, like all other words, prepositions have meaning. This is how we can explain prepositions and how it can become easier to learn prepositions.


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## Maître Capello

Steven David said:


> Prepositions have meaning and logic.
> The logic comes from what they mean.


This is the very reason they are difficult to learn. In the present case, *over* indeed seems totally logical because we are talking about a view *covering* the whole city *from above*.

According to Merriam-Webster, _over_ is:


> 1 —used as a function word to indicate motion or situation in a position higher than or above another
> 4 a —used as a function word to indicate position upon or movement down upon



Yet _over_ is considered non idiomatic by some natives like you, who only use *of* instead.


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## Steven David

The use of "over" in a situation like this is context-dependent. At this point, I would say please refer to all my previous posts about this without taking one sentence out of context and separate from the rest of everything else. I have been very specific.

Challenging as they may be at times, there's a way to explain the use of prepositions, and explaining them makes them easier to understand.

The idea or the belief that prepositions do not have meaning and are therefore not logical makes prepositions difficult to learn and understand. Of course, the understanding has to come first. Those that teach English have to understand that prepositions have meaning, and those that teach English have to be able to explain the meaning of prepositions.

I've explained "view of the city" versus "view over the city" in my previous posts.

The phrase "a view of the city" would be the first choice of a native speaker of English in most situations most of the time.

After that, "view over the city" is context-dependent. To be clear, I am not saying that "view over the city" is impossible.

I am saying, however, that "view of the city" is the more normal, usual, and common choice for native speakers in regular, ordinary, everyday conversation.

If British English speakers do not believe that "view of the city" is the more common and usual choice in everyday conversation, then this could be could be a difference between American English and British English.


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## Steven David

Maître Capello said:


> Yet _over_ is considered non idiomatic by some natives like you, who only use *of* instead.



No, this is not true. I _*never*_ said that "view over the city" is wrong. Again, please review my previous posts. I'm very specific in what I say. And I never ever ever ever use the term "idiomatic" *this way*. 

Sentences are either correct or not correct. Phrases are either correct or not correct. We can also think of sentences and phrases as being unusual or uncommon. And then we explain why something is correct or not correct, and we explain why something is unusual or uncommon. However, I do not explain things away by saying it's "idiomatic" or it's "not idiomatic". There is always a way to explain something.

I appreciate it if you prefer to use that term in this way. I don't use it this way and never will -- ever.


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## Hermione Golightly

I did read your posts very carefully and I am a highly qualified teacher of English. From my BE point of view 'a view over the city' is completely ''and a totally correct choice, both in written and spoken English. I did give my contexts and don't propose to repeat them as well as the very possible 'logic'.
If you insist that 'view over' is only possible when '_flying_ above' that's fine, as long as you make it clear that the majority of native speakers you keep mentioning means most American native-speakers. 

Are you saying that those Americans who might say 'view over' are making a mistake?



> There is always a way to explain something.


 I couldn't agree less. 'Idiom' is not 'a waste bin' term. It has very real meaning and saves a lot of time trying to invent 'logical' pseudo explanations. Next thing, we'll have people asking if 'look over my work, please' means take a plane to read it.


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## Steven David

Hermione Golightly said:


> I couldn't agree less. 'Idiom' is not 'a waste bin' term.



I did not say "idiom" was a wastebin term.

I commented on the word "idiomatic" and how people often use it. This is what I find to be incorrect: the manner in which people use the word "idiomatic" to comment on whether or not something is correct or incorrect.

If others wish to do that, well, that's perfectly fine, obviously.

I choose not to and always have chosen not to. Therefore, I never would have commented on the phrase "view over the city" as being idiomatic or not idiomatic. And I never said "view over the city" was wrong.

I maintain that we have to look at the entirety of my posts here, not one piece, one sentence, or one section. After that, it's all 100% clear.

This is not a question of whether or not the phrase is correct or incorrect. Again, I'm not saying it's incorrect.

Please, review all of my posts, and then you will find that I am not saying that this phrase is incorrect. I'm saying something entirely different, and that is what we will find in my previous posts, which really are very good, by the way.


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## Maître Capello

Steven David said:


> No, this is not true. I _*never*_ said that "view over the city" is wrong. Again, please review my previous posts. I'm very specific in what I say. And I never ever ever ever use the term "idiomatic" *this way*.


You may disagree with people, but please don't be so aggressive. This not tolerated in the forums! [Maître Capello, as moderator]

Nobody ever said _over_ was incorrect… You seem to be confusing "unidiomatic" and "wrong." Something "unidiomatic" is something a native would not naturally say, but it is not necessarily something wrong. All I said was that _over_ is a preposition you consider not to be idiomatic in your variety of English as you don't use it yourself and it is not something you would normally hear.

This is at least the natural conclusion that comes to mind when reading all your previous posts, especially the following comments of yours:


Steven David said:


> The preposition "of" is correct here. […] For "over" to make sense, we would have to be flying above the city.





Steven David said:


> "view over the city" << This is not something I would normally think of saying and not something I think I would normally hear.


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## Steven David

As I said before, I would take into account everything I said in my previous posts. This explains it all.


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## wildan1

Steven David said:


> We're looking down at the city from the mountain, and we have a view of the city.


If I can really see the city (or whatever view is there) panoramically, it would be natural for me to say (and to write) _over the _____. _To stress my impression, I'd likely say _a view over the whole city._


Steven David said:


> I would say "view of the city". That would be the first choice for most native speakers of English. Other than that, this could be a difference between American English and British English.


Agreed--and I was born and raised and educated in the U.S. This may simply be a question of regional preference in AE, or simply of idiolect. 

But I don't think anyone should be doctrinaire about such a trifling difference.


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## Steven David

wildan1 said:


> If I can really see the city (or whatever view is there) panoramically, it would be natural for me to say (and to write) _over the _____. _To stress my impression, I'd likely say _a view over the whole city._
> Agreed--and I was born and raised and educated in the U.S. This may simply be a question of regional preference in AE, or simply of idiolect.
> 
> But I don't think anyone should be doctrinaire about such a trifling difference.




If it's really a panoramic view, then I would agree. And if it's really over the whole city, then, yes, that would make sense.

It depends on an individual's specific view or perspective, which is to say where they are situated or positioned. This is what I said previously in other posts.

And if we don't take into account specific view or perspective, then this could be a difference between American English and British English. 

It has nothing to do with idiolect, however.

"view over X" < I would not say this about any particular view, however, that happens to be from high above. Again, it depends on specific view or perspective. It depends on where someone is situated and whether or not someone is able to see the whole of some particular area. Or, again, it depends on whether or not we can say that the view is panoramic.

That said, I still maintain that "view of the city" is the more common phrase of the two and the more likely first choice of native speakers of English with the exception of a possible difference between American English and British English.

At this level, with questions from non-native speakers who want to understand things better, it's important to be specific. Details are important. Nuance is, as well, important.

Yes, no one should be doctrinaire about this at all. Some comments are a bit surprising from time to time.


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## Keith Bradford

Jektor said:


> @ Steven David: I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
> This may be another UK/US language difference...


I'll back that theory.

"*Over*" implies (to me) "at a height, from one side to the other".  So *a view over the city* will be obtained from a high point within the city itself or from nearby. I think immediately of Paris as seen from the Sacré Coeur, Notre Dame or the Eiffel Tower. (Other well-known examples are available.) This is for me a very familiar phrase and according to Google Ngram Viewer accounts for 10% of compared UK usage. However, a different Google Ngram Viewer shows that in America it's twice as rare.
"*Of*" is more general.  You might obtain *a view of the city* from a distant mountain, an aeroplane, a satellite, a high building, the street or even the sewers.


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