# mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägten Bevölkerung



## Andres C.

Hello there,
_Geprägt (p.p. of prägen)_. This is a word that in some contexts I find somewhat difficult to translate properly to English (or for that matter Spanish, my native tongue).
The bilingual dictionaries point to the fact that _geprägt_ carries the meaning of (someone/something) being characterized, shaped, or oriented by something else. But there are a lot of instances in which those meanings do not seem to fit well in the context of the phrase:

This is a sentence from an article on the Deutsche Welle website:

_Auch Dagestan ist, wie Inguschetien und Tschetschenien, eine autonome Republik innerhalb Russlands, mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägten Bevölkerung von fast drei Millionen Einwohnern_
(http://www.dw.com/de/wer-steht-als-nächster-auf-putins-liste/a-17512954)

What would be an appropriate translation for "einer mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägten Bevölkerung"?

Thanks for the help.


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## perpend

I understand: ... a region dominated by Muslims ...


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## bearded

Hello Andres
''..._with a mostly Islam-oriented population / with a population..., the majority of which is of Islamic religion._
Why do you say that the meaning ''shaped, oriented'' does not fit here?  People were, in their majority, ''educated/shaped'' as Muslims.


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## Andres C.

Thank you for your answers.



bearded man said:


> Why do you say that the meaning ''shaped, oriented'' does not fit here? People were, in their majority, ''educated/shaped'' as Muslims.


Yes, we assume Muslims are raised, educated and "shaped/oriented" as Muslims.  
And that is precisely the point of my question, that I don't quite understand the function of the adjective "geprägt" in a sentence like that.

I would translate that sentence to English much like you did in your second example. Thus:
"Like Ingushetia and Chechnya, Dagestan is also an autonomous republic of Russia, _with a mostly Muslim population of almost three million people_."  And in doing so, I leave the "geprägt" out the picture.

In other words, what would be different if the author of the article simply wrote: _"...mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch Bevölkerung von fast drei Millionen Einwohnern"_?

Thanks.


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## perpend

Andres C. said:


> In other words, what would be different if the author of the article simply wrote: _"...mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch Bevölkerung von fast drei Millionen Einwohnern"_?



I see what you mean. "geprägt" doesn't add much meaning/flavor, but maybe it could.

I used "dominated" above, and now will introduce the softer "influenced".

I think there's a top-heavy culture in some countries which forces the Islamic culture/mindset on the inhabitants.

I could be missing the point.


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## bearded

The majority of the population received an islamic education.  By simply saying ''a mostly islamic population'' , in a way you take for granted that those people are still faithful muslims even today.  It is a subtle difference, but the author of the article just says that they received an islamic orientation or ''imprinting''.
I hadn't attributed much importance to this in my first suggestion, I'm sorry. 
You might as well say ''with a majority of the population...influenced by Islam'', according to perpend's good suggestion.
I do not agree, though, on his ''forced on the inhabitants''. For me,  children are taught religion also in Christian countries in about the same way (but I don't wish to open a new chapter, let alone a..polemic, about this. _Bitte nicht, um Gotteswillen.)_


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## Hutschi

Hi, Andres,
I think the meaning "imprinting" is indeed part of "geprägt".
Literally "prägen" means to shape/to coin something.

This is transfered as metaphor to people. "Prägen" is used also as to have a formative influence on sb.

The people are influenced and educated islamically.

As with many metaphors, it weakened and so now it basically means _with a mostly Muslim population _(as said above). 
(Not "imprinted" as in Brave New World.) It now also has also  a connotation of "influenced". Even non-islamic people are influenced by the islamic environment.


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## Kajjo

"imprinted" is a perfect translation of "geprägt" -- it might not be that idiomatic in English in everyday speech, but it certainly conveys, what "geprägt" is intended to express.


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## Hutschi

I agree.
I am just not sure (as you) about style.
And about strength of "imprinting" in English.

"Geprägt" has lots of connotations, and in the sentence it is rather neutral.
If "imprinted" is also neutral than it works perfect.


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## Andres C.

Thanks a lot everyone for your comments.

At this point I am more inclined to think that the best translation for "geprägt" is no translation, at least in these kinds of sentences describing a certain fixed characteristic of a people.

I do see the nuance that the word adds to the sentence in German, but there seems to be no good equivalent for it in an English or Spanish sentence. I would say that "a mostly Muslim-imprinted population" or even the softer "a mostly Muslim-influenced population" expression sounds awkward and maybe charged with a political overtone that is not present or intended in the German text.

It may be easier when the text describes a process that occurs in time, as in this article that I found in Wikipedia.de

*Ostseegouvernements*
_Die *Ostseegouvernements* (russisch Остзейские губернии) waren Estland, Livland und Kurland.
Sie hatten im Russischen Reich eine gewisse Sonderstellung, da sie infolge der jahrhundertelangen Herrschaft des deutsch-baltischen Adels protestantisch und deutsch geprägt waren.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostseegouvernements
_
And even here it may be a bit tricky, but "Germanized" seems to be a proper equivalent for "deutsch geprägt sein".


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## bearded

Following the 'germanized' pattern, then you could say 'islamized'  (ugly word, though): a mostly islamized population.
In my language we could in fact say :  _una popolazione in maggioranza islamizzata.[una población - en su mayoría - islamizada ?]_


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## Kajjo

Andres C. said:


> At this point I am more inclined to think that the best translation for "geprägt" is no translation, at least in these kinds of sentences describing a certain fixed characteristic of a people.


Yes, your decision is fine.


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## Andres C.

bearded man said:


> Following the 'germanized' pattern, then you could say 'islamized'  (ugly word, though): a mostly islamized population.
> In my language we could in fact say that:  _una popolazione in maggioranza islamizzata.[una población - en su mayoría - islamizada ?]_


Correcto. Una población en su mayoría islamizada. It may be correct, but besides being ugly, it sounds very odd. And definitely not applicable to describe the simple fact that "most dagestanis are Muslims".

Thanks all for your help with my question.


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## perpend

It remains an interesting question.

How would you feel about this, Andres: ... with a population of 3 million leaning towards Islam.


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## Andres C.

And the _mehrheitlich_?


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## elroy

_an autonomous republic within Russia where Islam has left its mark on most of the approximately three million inhabitants
una república autónoma dentro de Rusia donde el Islam ha dejado su marca en la mayoría de los aproximadamente tres millones de habitantes_


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## bearded

elroy said:


> _an autonomous republic within Russia where Islam has left its mark on most of the approximately three million inhabitants
> una república autónoma dentro de Rusia donde el Islam ha dejado su marca en la mayoría de los aproximadamente tres millones de habitantes_


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## Hutschi

Hi, I think that is too weak.
There are not only marks of Islam but the most of these are islamic.



> an autonomous republic within Russia where Islam has left its mark on most of the approximately three million inhabitants


This can also mean that they are Christian people influenced by Islam, but the original states that the most of them are really Islamic.

So I agree that best is not to translate it.


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## elroy

"Left its mark" is pretty strong in English.  


Hutschi said:


> There are not only marks of Islam but the most of these are islamic.
> 
> This can also mean that they are Christian people influenced by Islam, but the original states that the most of them are really Islamic.


 Are you saying you think that "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" is the same as "muslimische Bevölkerung"??


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## Frieder

_Geprägt _adds the cultural aspect to the religious one. But I would vote for not translating it, as suggested above.


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## elroy

Unless "muslimisch geprägt" is 100% identical to "muslimisch" in this context, it needs to be translated!


Frieder said:


> _Geprägt _adds the cultural aspect to the religious one.


 All the more reason to translate it!

Was ist los, Muttersprachler? Seit wann sehen wir in diesem Forum über Nuancen hinweg? 

Aufgrund der in diesem Thread ausgedrückten Meinungen wäre ich dezidiert *gegen* das Nicht-Übersetzen. Außer ich habe etwas missverstanden... Daher meine Frage: wären hier "muslimisch geprägt" und "muslimisch" etwa synonym?


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> "Left its mark" is pretty strong in English.
> Are you saying you think that "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" is the same as "muslimische Bevölkerung"??



Not exactly - but it is more similar than "Islam has left its mark ".

As Frieder wrote: "_Geprägt _adds the cultural aspect to the religious one."
I want to add: not all but the most are islamic, and the rest is not islamic but Islam has left its mark. "mostly Muslimic/Islamic population"
"Islamiced" is too strong. It means they had another religion before. The German text does not say this, neither does exclude it.


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> not all but the most are islamic, and the rest is not islamic but Islam has left its mark.


 That's not how I understand the original German.  I understand it to mean that most of the population consists of people who are either followers of Islam (Muslims) or non-Muslims on whom Islam has left its mark (culturally, perhaps).  In English, "Islam has left its mark" leaves it open as to whether the people actually converted to Islam or did not but were influenced by Islam in other ways.

The remaining people (the ones not included in the "mehrheitlich") would be individuals who are neither Muslim not influenced by Islam.  They are the people where Islam hasn't left (too strong of a) mark.


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## Kajjo

Once again, not being an English native, I favor the suggestion not to translate it.

Another example:

Yesterday I heard in the radio about the latest university shooting: *"...ländlich geprägtes Umfeld"*. Again, I believe that "rural area" or the like would be best and that "geprägt" appears to be a typicall German way to express the thought of having of not only being rural, but also having the properties usually associated with being "rural".


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## Hutschi

May be I do not understand "has left its mark" with all connotations.

"muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" means indeed that most of them are really Muslims.
If I understand  "Islam has left its mark" well, it lets too much open. "Islamisch geprägt" does not speak about conversion process. Etymology might help to understand, but the meaning changed from process to status.


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## bearded

@ elro y
I like your ''...has left its mark''.  It seems to me, anyhow, that also my ''...una población en su mayoría islamizada'' (lit. a population islamized in its majority) would have the same meaning.


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## Kajjo

Let me focus on my new thought again:

"muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" = not all are muslimic, but the society and community behaves like a typical muslimic society


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## elroy

> "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" = not all are muslimic, but the society and community behaves like a typical muslimic society


 That's _exactly_ why I think "left its mark" fits so well! 

Hutschi and Frieder (and other natives), do you agree with Kajjo, or do you think that "muslimisch geprägt" definitely means that they're _at least Muslim_, and additionally culturally influenced by Islam?  What about people who are not Muslim but are culturally influenced by Islam?  Can those people be called "muslimisch geprägt"?


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> Let me focus on my new thought again:
> 
> "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" = not all are muslimic, but the society and community behaves like a typical muslimic society



I almost agree. The sentence is true, but I'm in doubt with the weight.

I'd say: Almost all are muslimic, and the society and community behaves like a typical muslimic society

It has mathematically the same meaning, and for Germany I'd prefer your sentence but with "Christian".


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## Kajjo

@Hutschi: I agree, "almost all are muslimic" or at least "predominantly muslimic". My focus was on "not only being muslimic, but behaving typically like muslimic".


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> What about people who are not Muslim but are culturally influenced by Islam? Can those people be called "muslimisch geprägt"?


A few non-muslims in a predominantly muslimic society are certainly part of what is meant by "muslimisch geprägt". They are influenced by culture and traditionas, by typical hebaviour and customs. A "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" surely can have non-muslimic inhabitants.


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> A "muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung" surely can have non-muslimic inhabitants.


In particular if the word 'mehrheitlich' appears.


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## elroy

I see what you're saying, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

The original includes the word "mehrheitlich":

_mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägten Bevölkerung_

For me, this means that *most*, but not all, of the population is "muslimisch geprägt," meaning that some are _not_ "muslimisch geprägt."

There are three possible groups of people:

1) Muslims
2) non-Muslims who are influenced by Islam
3) non-Muslims who are not influenced by Islam

My understanding was that the population consisted _mostly_ of 1) and 2), with a minority consisting of 3).

Some of the posts seemed to suggest that the population can only consist of 1) and 2).

Either way, I think "left its mark" is an appropriate translation.

If my understanding is correct, then I would say "_where Islam has left its mark on most of the approximately three million inhabitants_" (my original suggestion).
If only 1) and 2) are included (even though the original says "mehrheitlich"!), then I would say "_where Islam has left its mark on the approximately three million inhabitants_" (my original suggestion without "most of").

So really, the "most" issue is not relevant to the interpretation of "muslimisch geprägt."  I only brought it up since at least one post seemed to suggest the population was _all_ Muslim.

But if we assume that the sentence was written by a good writer, then each word has to be there for a reason:

muslimische Bevölkerung > The population consists entirely of Muslims.
muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung > The population consists entirely of Muslims or people on whom Islam has left its mark (people influenced by Islam).
mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung > The population _mostly_ consists of Muslims or people influenced by Islam, but there is also a minority of people who are neither Muslim not influenced by Islam.

Nebenbei: "Muslimic" is not a word in English.  The people are "Muslims" or "Moslems," and the adjective is "Muslim" or "Moslem."  There is also "Islamic," but that has a different meaning.


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## Kajjo

_mit einer mehrheitlich muslimisch geprägten Bevölkerung_
_with a predominantly Muslim population
_
Sorry, I lost contact to the original phrase. Yes, you are right that here all 3 groups of #34 are possible.

I am not against your suggestion "left its mark", however, I think the English focus is much more intense than the sort of neutral, soft term "geprägt". Thus, I still prefer translation by omitting rather than by drawing to much focus. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a soft idiomatic term for "geprägt" in English.

_eine ländlich geprägte Gegend
a rural area

eine muslimisch geprägte Bevölkerung
a Muslim population_

Maybe inserting the word "typical" could add some flavor in the right direction?

_a typically rural area
a typically Muslim population
_
(By the way, thanks for pointing out that "muslimic" does not exists.)


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## elroy

I agree that "left its mark" is probably more intense than "geprägt," but the problem with "a Muslim population" is that that really means that they are all Muslim, so it's factually inaccurate.

I wonder if we can get metaphorical and say something like "a predominantly Muslim social fabric"?


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## Andres C.

Frieder said:


> _Geprägt _adds the cultural aspect to the religious one. But I would vote for not translating it, as suggested above.


Thank you. 

That being the core meaning of geprägt, I am now more convinced that there is sadly no way you can translate that to English or Spanish (or French) in passing without overcomplicating matters or making the author say things he never intended to say in the original.


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## elroy

In most other contexts, you could safely leave "geprägt" untranslated.  _In this particular context_, if you do that you run the risk of significantly distorting the original meaning.  For all we know, the majority of the inhabitants may not even be Muslims and the original statement could still apply.  In some European countries, for example, a large portion of the population does not practice any religion, yet those countries are still "christlich geprägt" due to history and traditions.


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## Andres C.

I was about to edit my previous post with precisely the same words you put in italics afterwards: "That being the core meaning of geprägt _in this particular context, _I am now more convinced..."

In my opinion your suggestion (_"Also Dagestan is an autonomous republic of Russia, were Islam has left its mark on the majority of its three million people") _creates a bigger problem by leaving out the word _muslimisch_, which is an essential part of the phrase. He has written _muslimisch_, not _islamisch _or_ Islam._

What is the main aim of the author? What does he want to tell us in that particular sentence? The way I understand it, it's not that "Islam has left its mark on a people whose religion we don't know what is". He's just telling us that most dagestanis are Muslims, adding _geprägt_ for effect. Well, we don't have the luxury of keeping that same effect in the translation without getting into troubles and possibly coming out with a _politisch geprägt_ sentence.

If one has to choose which word to leave out the translation, between _muslimisch_ and _geprägt_, I think it should be _geprägt_.


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## Kajjo

I agree with Andreas, but I also see Elroys points. Anyway, I sincerely believe, Elroys suggestion puts much too much emphasis on the "geprägt" and changes the meaning of the sentence to much. 

What about:

_...with a predominantly Muslim-influenced population...
...with a predominantly Muslim-oriented population..._


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## Kajjo

Noch ein aktuelles Zitat:

_



			„Ich kann in meinem Asylbewerberheim nicht offen sagen, dass ich Christ bin. Dann werde ich bedroht“, sagte ein Flüchtling im südlichen Brandenburg kürzlich. Auch ein Berliner Pfarrer warnt vor einer Diskriminierung der Christen. Denn die Flüchtlingsunterkünfte sind überwiegend muslimisch geprägt.
		
Click to expand...

_Quelle

Suggestions for translation?


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## elroy

Andres C. said:


> He has written _muslimisch_, not _islamisch _or_ Islam._


 Muslims are followers of Islam.  In other contexts, "Muslim" is simply the adjective corresponding to "Islam."  I may not have used the word "Muslim" but my translation definitely preserves the core meaning of "muslimisch." 





> He's just telling us that most dagestanis are Muslims, adding _geprägt_ for effect.


 Do we know that for sure?  In Lebanon, the majority of the population is not Christian, but Lebanon is undoubtedly "christlich geprägt."  In this case, the majority of Dagestanis do happen to be Muslim (I looked it up) but we do not know that from the German sentence alone. 





> If one has to choose which word to leave out the translation, between _muslimisch_ and _geprägt_, I think it should be _geprägt_.


 Of course _muslimisch_ should not be omitted - that would be absurd - but it's not about the word.  It's about the meaning.


Kajjo said:


> _...with a predominantly Muslim-influenced population...
> ...with a predominantly Muslim-oriented population..._


 I think one issue with these formulations is that they suggest that the people are not Muslims, but only influenced by Islam or have a "Muslim orientation" (whatever that would mean).  The challenge is to find a formulation that can include both.  That's what I was trying to do with "left its mark."


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## Kajjo

Yes, I know, Elroy, and I do not contradict you. There is no english equivalent and depending on the focus of the german orginal, omitting or emphasizing appears to be the only alternatives. What a pity.

_"eine ländliches Umfeld"
"eine ländlich geprägtes Umfeld"_

Is there a difference in German? Yes, but only slightly. It is more a nuance, more a fine art of expressing rather than a big difference.


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## Andres C.

elroy said:


> Do we know that for sure? In Lebanon, the majority of the population is not Christian, but Lebanon is undoubtedly "christlich geprägt."


Ok, and what does _"christlich geprägt" _mean in your example? I understand that between 50% to 60% of the Lebanese population is Muslim. Do they follow Christian attitudes and customs? On the reverse, what Muslim customs and practices are not followed by the Lebanese Muslims, in order for us to claim that Lebanon is undoubdtedly _christlich geprägt_?
Unless most of the Lebanese Muslims go to Christian churches on Sundays instead of praying five times a day facing toward Mecca, I would say it would be an error to call Lebanon a _christlich gepräg _country. That, according to what I have read from the comments of the German members of the forum. Maybe I am mistaken, and if so, please correct me.



> He's just telling us that most dagestanis are Muslims, adding _geprägt_ for effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we know that for sure?
Click to expand...


According to the fellow members of the forum who are native German speakers and who have commented on the topic: yes, we know that for sure. That's implied in the sentence:


Hutschi said:


> Hi, Andres,
> As with many metaphors, it weakened and so now it basically means _with a mostly Muslim population _(as said above).


also,


Frieder said:


> _Geprägt _adds the cultural aspect to the religious one. But I would vote for not translating it, as suggested above.



It is because of the comments from Hutschi, Kajjo and Frieder, that I learned that it is best not to get too centered on the "geprägt" part in these kinds of sentences. A metaphorical expression that can be omitted without altering what the author says. 
And omission is the best course of action, since there are no good and neutral equivalents to _geprägt_, at least in English and in Spanish.

Now please take a look at this text:


> Obwohl es im Koran praktisch keine staatsrechtlichen Bestimmungen gibt, entstand in neuerer Zeit die Vorstellung vom „Islamischen Staat“. Muhammads kleiner Stadtstaat in Medina, also die Urgemeinde des Islam, wird von islamischen Ideologen als Modell betrachtet, an dem sich auch heutige islamische Länder zu orientieren haben. Abgesehen von den Schwierigkeiten, aus den Gegebenheiten eines kleinen Gemeinwesens des 7. Jahrhunderts n.Chr. eine Staatstheorie für heutige islamische Länder oder gar für ein Weltreich mit einem Kalifen als Oberhaupt abzuleiten – gibt es heute keine Staaten, die einem solchen Modell entsprechen würden. Das Königreich Saudi-Arabien und die Islamische Republik Iran, obwohl in ihrer politischen Struktur gänzlich verschieden, beanspruchen beide, islamische Staaten im eigentlichen Sinne zu sein. Eine „islamistische“ Ideologie ist allerdings eher im Iran maßgebend, während Saudi-Arabien eine Monarchie ist, in der die Macht auf der Zugehörigkeit und Loyalität zur Königsfamilie basiert. Zweifellose sind aber beide Staaten ebenso wie die Türkei, Marokko oder Indonesien „islamisch“ geprägte Länder.


http://www.christenundmuslime.de/faq/Was_ist_der_Unterschied_zwischen_islamisch_und_islamistisch.php
I just added the last paragraph to the quote, but I think the entire text is very interesting.


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## elroy

I didn't say that Lebanese _people_ were "christlich geprägt"; I said _Lebanon_ as a country was, even though Christians are not in the majority.  Lebanon is seen by other Arabs as a "Christian country."  The president is always Christian.  Most of the country's prominent figures and important personalities are Christian.  Lebanese society as a whole is influenced by Christian values.  As I said, the same can be said of many European countries, whether or not the majority of the population is Christian.

But maybe there's a difference between "ein christlich geprägtes Land" and "eine christlich geprägte Bevölkerung"?  A question for native speakers: In the Czech Republic only about 20% of the population identifies with a religion or some personal belief; most Czechs are areligious.  Can we say that the Czech Republic has "eine mehrheitlich christlich geprägte Bevölkerung" due to history, traditions, and customs? 

I asked a couple times if _muslimisch geprägt_ in this context was identical in meaning to _muslimisch_, and none of the native speakers said yes (see #22, #27, and #34).

The text you cite is indeed very interesting, but I'm not sure what you were trying to demonstrate with it?  Could you elaborate?


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## Andres C.

elroy said:


> I didn't say that Lebanese _people_ were "christlich geprägt"; I said _Lebanon_ as a country was, even though Christians are not in the majority.  Lebanon is seen by other Arabs as a "Christian country."  The president is always Christian.  Most of the country's prominent figures and important personalities are Christian.  Lebanese society as a whole is influenced by Christian values.  As I said, the same can be said of many European countries, whether or not the majority of the population is Christian.


I really doubt that the Lebanese Muslims live their lives according to Christian values. As they constitute 50 plus percent of the population of that country, I would guess that applying the adjective _Christlich geprägt_ to that nation or its people is not necessarily correct, even if the political power in Lebanon is all in the hands of Christians.

With the text I was just trying to demonstrate that, after the lengthy explanation, when we get to the last sentence, the same situation applies:

_Zweifellose sind aber beide Staaten ebenso wie die Türkei, Marokko oder Indonesien „islamisch“ geprägte Länder = But without a doubt, both countries are, just like Turkey, Morocco or Indonesia, "islamic" countries. _

Once again, _geprägte_ gets "lost in translation".


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## Schlabberlatz

elroy said:


> an autonomous republic within Russia where Islam has left its mark on most of the approximately three million inhabitants


"an autonomous republic within Russia with a population of approximately three million that mostly consists of Muslims; in addition, Islam has left its mark on most of the non-Muslim inhabitants"
Something like that, maybe?


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