# Galician and Portuguese: the same language?



## Dr. Quizá

Hi, I was told by some Galician guys Portuguese and Galician are the same language. I know they share common roots, of course, but "the same language" is a strong sentence. Since in Spain nationalisms do have a bias, I wonder which is the view of this in Portugal.


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## Outsider

This is a controversial question with no single and simple answer. Portuguese and Galician _were_ certainly the same language, in the 12th century or so. But since the political separation between Portugal and Galicia discussing the relation between the two is itself political. 

In Portugal, I'm afraid that the average man on the street is not very informed about Galicia, or Galician. Just a few days ago, I watched a Galician be interviewed on Portuguese TV in the news, and they subtitled him...


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## Ekdog

I just spent some time in both Galicia and Portugal. I am fluent in Spanish, and I have only a very basic knowledge of Portuguese. I had no trouble at all understanding Galician, which sounded to me like a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese, but I found it very difficult to understand spoken Portuguese, even though I listen to tapes and radio whenever I can.


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## moura

Hi

I have been in Galicia some weeks ago. The languages - Portuguese and Galego have lots of words in commom, but they are different, in particular the pronounciation. I remember a lady speaking about the fire in Galicia in this Summer. She was tolding that the birds near the pond hab been caught by the fire.
She said the word "birds" (I am going to write as she spoke) as "páxaros", with the silable "xá" pronounced as _shá_. In Portuguese we write "pássaros" and this silable "ssa" is pronounced as the _su _of the word _support._

I also remember the word "xunta" (the municipal chamber) - "xu" pronounced as the "x" from _xenom. _In Portuguese we say as "junta", pronouncing the "ju" as _ju-nior._

This kind of Galegue pronounciation is quite common in the villages in the Portuguese North boarder.

As a last view of this subject, when hearing the people speaking in Galego it is much more easy to understand them, than when they speak in Spanish/Castillian. We almost don't need to translate mentally.


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## Talant

Hi,

I think that even if they're close, they are different enought to be considered different languages. At least, one of them might be considered a dialect of the other.

I've never been able to understan Portuguese. But I understand Galician with not that much effort.

Bye


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## Outsider

Ekdog said:


> I just spent some time in both Galicia and Portugal. I am fluent in Spanish, and I have only a very basic knowledge of Portuguese. I had no trouble at all understanding Galician, which sounded to me like a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese, but I found it very difficult to understand spoken Portuguese, even though I listen to tapes and radio whenever I can.


How do you know what you heard was Galician? In the cities, most Galicians now speak Spanish, perhaps with a couple of regionalisms mixed in and a slight accent.


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## Outsider

moura said:


> She said the word "birds" (I am going to write as she spoke) as "páxaros", with the silable "xá" pronounced as _shá_. In Portuguese we write "pássaros" and this silable "ssa" is pronounced as the _su _of the word _support._


Did she say _páxaros_, or _pássaros_ with an apical _ss_?


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## Ekdog

Outsider said:


> How do you know what you heard was Galician? In the cities, most Galicians now speak Spanish, perhaps with a couple of regionalisms mixed in and a slight accent.



That's a good point. I commented to the mother and daughter at a guest house I stayed in that I could understand them perfectly when they spoke to each other in Galician. They said that they were indeed speaking Galician, but that many others in Santiago did subsitute Spanish words sometimes when they didn't know the Galician one. They used the example of _corkscrew_, which is, I believe,  _saca-rolhos_ _saca-rolhas_ in both Galician and Portuguese, but which most folks call a _sacacorchos_.

I also tuned in to Galician television while I was there, and I had no trouble understanding it. I suppose the true test, though, would be to visit some small villages and speak to some of the older people there. I'm told that their language is less influenced by Spanish than is that of the city folks.


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## Outsider

Ekdog said:


> They used the example of _corkscrew_, which is, I believe,  _saca-rolhos_ in both Galician and Portuguese, but which most folks call a _sacacorchos_.


In Portuguese, at least, it's _saca-rolhas_. 



Ekdog said:


> I also tuned in to Galician television while I was there, and I had no trouble understanding it.


I've also heard from some Galicians (admittedly, "nationalist" ones) that the kind of Galician used by TVG is, for the most part, artificial and heavily hispanicized; that it does not correspond to how Galicians actually speak Galician.


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## moura

Outsider said:


> Did she say _páxaros_, or _pássaros_ with an apical _ss_?


 
Hi OUt,

She was saying páxaros, deeply pronouncing the x. I don't know what is "apical" _ss _but perhaps it is the same_._ Her pronounciation remembered so much the _pronúncia do Norte  _(North pronounce) full of sybilants. Really nice to hear her


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## Outsider

Ah, pois, a Moura se calhar não leu esta discussão.


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## moura

Li, li, Out, mas confesso que não tive muito tempo para ler todos os pormenores e acho que esta foi (e é) uma das mais animadas e divertidas que apareceu nos últimos tempos. Agora fui lê-la outra vez, mas "en passant" como diria um antigo prof meu.
A fala dessa senhora galega tinha algo a ver com a pronúncia do Carlos Carvalhas ali descrita. Mas mais carregada, definitivamente muito mais e com as vogais profundamente abertas.


in English

Yes I had read it, though I admit that I was not having much time to read all the details and I think this was (and is) one of the more vivid and funny recent Portuguese threads. I read it once again now, "en passant",as former teacher of mine would say.
This galegue lady spoke something like Carlos Carvalhas (the last Portuguese Comunist leader) that was mentioned there. But she stressed much more the silables and opened the vowels.


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## Ekdog

Outsider said:


> In Portuguese, at least, it's _saca-rolhas_.
> 
> Oh, yes, of course. Thanks for the correction.


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## alexacohen

Been a Galician born and bred, I can tell you that Portuguese is a language and that Galician was one, but ceased to be used as written language in the Middle Ages. Its grammar was lost, and there only remained some words, names of places and a few and modal verbs.
Politicians decided to "resurrect" the language in the last century.
Naturally, the grammar and the new words are picked either from Portuguese or from Spanish; it depends on the colour of the government.
And here I stop.


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## Sulizhen

I was born and have been raised in Galicia -I still live here, and I can say that, although Portuguese is easier to understand for us, Galician people, there are some grammatical points and structures that we don't have in Galician.

As some people mentioned yet, the Galician used by TVG is very standard and may sound artificial, but the reason for this is that they're trying to spread a more... hmmm... standardized language. In fact, this kind of standardized language is spoken just by University students -who are trying to recover their language and their roots- and by people in big cities (I must say that, not many years ago, Galician was considered a language spoken just in rural places, related to yokels and country people... When people moved from villages to "big cities", they did not only leave aside the language they often used, Galician, but they also even tried to hide their Galician accent). So, what we can call "real Galician" is now spoken in some towns and cities by the elders and even some young folks, although I guess there is no way to avoid Spanish influences in every aspect, from grammar to vocabulary.

Another reason for the artificial sound of the Galician spoken in TVG is that new linguistic rules for Galician have been revised and aproved not long ago, and the new rules were created to "reconcile" different attitudes regarding Galician (some people claimed that Galician and Portuguese are the same language, some people didn't, some people deffended the idea of using certain ortography -"nh", for example, instead "ñ"...). The result is a kind of blend of traditional (or what was considered traditional) Galician with Portuguese and Spanish... and I suppose this is the reason why the "new" Galician does not sound natural to anyone...


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## konungursvia

We must remember the first poetry written in the post-classical era: Galego-Portuguese poetry: "Muyto me tarda o meu amigo na Guarda"! It's the same language, originally, but for political reasons the Castillians have tried to differentiate it by imposing spelling and other conventions that differ from Portuguese. I still consider them sisters, perhaps even fraternal twins.


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## terredepomme

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I find this matter quite interesting.It seems to me that it is quite common over the world where a minority language is debated as to be a mere dialect or a separate language.Some people stress that their languages, although being largely mutually intelligible, are separate languages, for example Afrikaans or Luxemburgish, which are mutually intelligible with Dutch and German.Others will disregard the minor differences as merely colloquial deviations, and will strive to promote the "standard" form in formal situations, lest they lose their ties with the bigger language group. For example, The Québec French once developped to a point(joual) where it can be seen as a separate language from French; but the standard form of French was always imposed, and even now the Office of French Language in Québec accepts without arguments the orthographical reforms made by the Academy of France. Same with Swiss German: Writing is almost always done in Hochdeutsch, while everyday life is carried out in Alemannisch.But the Galican issue here seems to be unique because, unlike in other cases, whether Galician is Portuguese or not is a debated issue.Personally, for someone who imagines that the people of Québec would have had a very hard time defending their language if they declared its "independence" from standard French, I find the "reintegrationist" side to be more convincing, although I know next to nothing about the Galician society and its linguistic realities. In Québec, everyone speaks the Québec way in everyday speech. Adopting standard French did not mean abandonning their linguistic uniqueness. I imagine the same would be possible if the Galicians learned the "standard" Galico-Portuguese in school but spoke to themselves as they have always had. Then the younger generation would have more merits to stick to their language, which can be seen as a world language in its own right. But it would be better for me to be prudent to not speak of a matter that I hardly know and listen to the opinions of the Galician people.


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## XiaoRoel

> Been a Galician born and bred, I can tell you that Portuguese is a language and that Galician was one, but ceased to be used as written language in the Middle Ages. Its grammar was lost, and there only remained some words, names of places and a few and modal verbs.
> Politicians decided to "resurrect" the language in the last century.
> Naturally, the grammar and the new words are picked either from Portuguese or from Spanish; it depends on the colour of the government.
> And here I stop.


isto é uma piada! De onde tirou os dados? Não precisa acreditar na existência do galego nos "séculos ágrafos", só tem que comprovar os dados linguísticos: até os anos de 1950 o galego era a língua de mais do 90% da malta cá na Galiza.


> As some people mentioned yet, the Galician used by TVG is very standard and may sound artificial, but the reason for this is that they're trying to spread a more... hmmm... standardized language. In fact, this kind of standardized language is spoken just by University students -who are trying to recover their language and their roots- and by people in big cities (I must say that, not many years ago, Galician was considered a language spoken just in rural places, related to yokels and country people... When people moved from villages to "big cities", they did not only leave aside the language they often used, Galician, but they also even tried to hide their Galician accent). So, what we can call "real Galician" is now spoken in some towns and cities by the elders and even some young folks, although I guess there is no way to avoid Spanish influences in every aspect, from grammar to vocabulary.Another reason for the artificial sound of the Galician spoken in TVG is that new linguistic rules for Galician have been revised and aproved not long ago, and the new rules were created to "reconcile" different attitudes regarding Galician (some people claimed that Galician and Portuguese are the same language, some people didn't, some people deffended the idea of using certain ortography -"nh", for example, instead "ñ"...). The result is a kind of blend of traditional (or what was considered traditional) Galician with Portuguese and Spanish... and I suppose this is the reason why the "new" Galician does not sound natural to anyone...


Como dizemos cá: _outra vaca mais no milho_. Outra piada.


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## XiaoRoel

O assunto dá para muito. Ainda hoje o galego é a língua do 60% dos galegos. 
A relação do galego e do português é questão muito debatida. Nestes dias dei fim a uma sintaxe da língua galega de pronta aparição editorial, e, ainda que não atendo mais que de passo a este problema, há alguns dados que dão lideira para passar as horas: as isoglosas marcam a norte do Douro unha língua soterrada que é galego: pronúncia, morfologia, léxico, mesmo trás séculos de espanholização na Galiza lucense e de lusitanização na Galiza bracarense, deixam ainda asomar na fala a fundamental identidade da língua a ambas as beiras do Minho. 
Na língua escrita há outros padrões, convenções que tapam as realidades da fala.
a) feitos fonéticos: pronúncias de /r/, /ch/, (j-g/), /s/ final, /ou/, /ei/, /e-o/ fechados e abertos, tonemas, ritmo da frase.
b) feitos morfosintácticos: colocação dos pronomes átonos, o posesivo con artigo, solucións semelhantes nos perfectos fortes, etc.

No tocante ao léxico seria fóra das perspectivas deste foro extenderse na matéria. São muito numerosas as palavras comuns do galego de ambas as beiras do Minho fronte ao português padrão.

No Brasil, non obstante a sua evolução particular, pelas datas em que foi levada a língua para lá, no s. XVI, quando anda galego e português quase não tinham diferenças no padrão, é normal que coincida muitas vezes nas soluções linguísticas do galego.


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## Vós

XiaoRoel tu escreveste em galego?


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## XiaoRoel

Em galego aportuguesado.


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## Vós

Hmm então o galego tem duas formas? Espanholizado (Escreve-se assim?) e aportuguesado?

Porque eu já diria, sem dúvidas, que isto é português, com toques de espanhol, ou uma variante do espanhol ,que de leve não mudou muito.

Porque pelo que sei da história do português, inicialmente isto foi um dialeto espanhol, tanto até que, os portugueses na minha concepção de brasileiro, falam muito mais "espanholisados" [(plural ou singular) e (com "z" ou "s"?)] do que, nós brasileiros, mas isso é porque o português daqui do Brasil, já é uma variante do português de Portugal, então já não tem esse caráter mais incisivo na sonoridade e construção próxima do espanhol; isso é uma opinião de um zé, entretanto.

P.S.: O que está entre colchetes e parênteses é pergunta gramátical.

Segundo P.S.: "Porque eu já diria, sem dúvidas, que isto é português, com toques de  espanhol, ou uma variante do espanhol ,que de leve não mudou muito." Acho que está mal construída, peço desculpas se ficou díficil de entender.


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## XiaoRoel

> Porque pelo que sei da história do português, inicialmente isto foi um dialeto espanhol, tanto até que, os portugueses na minha concepção de brasileiro, falam muito mais "espanholisado (com "z" ou "s"?) do que, nós brasileiros, mas isso é porque o português daqui do Brasil, já é uma variante do português de Portugal, então já não tem esse caráter mais incisivo na sonoridade e construção próxima do espanhol; isso é uma opinião de um zé, entretanto.



Vou escreber en galego, con grafía normativa, para que podar enxergar claramente a forma gráfica da miña lingua.

O latín falado da Península Ibérica deriva en varias linguas que se estenden como franxas de norte a sul da península. De occidente a oriente son, o romance da provincia da Gallaecia, con dúas variedades, a galega e a asturleonesa, o romance oriental, que viría a ser o aragonés e o que máis tarde será o catalán. a Lusitania, a Bética  e a Cartaxinense contarían cunha modalidade que logo viría a dar no(s) mozárabe(s). Ademáis na zona central norteña había unha serie de falas que darán as variedades castelás, rioxanas e navarras. Coa invasión da península pola mouraría prodúcese unha creba social, política cultural e lingüística e nos montes do norte refúxianse as falas galegas, astur-leonesas, casteláns, navarro-riojanas, aragonesas e catalás.
O procso é complicado e longo para poñelo aquí.
No que nos interesa, até meados do século XII non pode haber português, porque non existía Portugal. Oterritorio que vai independizar Afonso Henriques é a Galaecia Bracarensis (do Douro ao sul da actual Galiza). Até 1380 non podemos falar nin de diferencias gráficas apreciábeis entre o que se escrebe na Galiza pertencente ao reino leonés e na Galiza independente, chamada agora reino de Portugal. A diferenciación, aínda pequena, e que afecta sobre todo á fonética, comeza desde a fim do s. XV, e non é importante até os séculos XVIII ou máis ben XIX.
Aínda hoxe, dessde o meu onto de vista o que se fala a norte do Douro en portugal é unha modalidade do galego, non do Portugués (que tem o centro do seu eixo na liña Coimbra-Lisboa), agás o mirandés que é un resto do antigo leonés e non pertence á familia galego-portuguesa, como sin pertencen a fala extremeña do val do Ellas, ou as falas zamoranas de As Portelas, as leonesas do bierzo, ou o galego de Asturias.
Se tes máis interés tes bons libro alá en Brasil. Un dos máis importantes a este respecto é a magnífica História da língua Portuguesa de Serafin Da Silva Neto.
Un saúdo desde a Galiza.


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## Vós

Nossa! Obrigado, por dividir tal conhecimento!


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## Istriano

Acho mais fácil entender o espanhol que o galego dos noticiários.
Os apresentadores têm um forte sotaque espanhol...Seria melhor eles falarem em espanhol se não conseguem falar o galego de verdade.
Quando pronunciam ditongos, exageram muito..._vou _soa mais para _vôo_ que [vou].  Isso é portunhol.
Sempre pronunciam OU e EI como se tivessem duas sílabas: con-tô-o, Ma-dê-i-ra, Sô-u-sa. Soa artificial.


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## XiaoRoel

Acho que Istriano está mais a descrever o proceso mental de adaptación ao seu senso linguístico do que está a sentir na TVG que a realidade da fala desses locutores. Eu non sinto esses diptongos como mal pronunciados (ou, mais bem, como hiatos, que é o que descreve Istriano). Para mim o defeito está nos tonemas do discurso, na sua música, e na deficiente pronúncia das vogais tónicas abertas e fechadas. Eles não son falantes originários do galego (agás excepções), mas galegos escolarizados en galego (ou en bilingüe galego e espanhol) e citadinos.


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## Vós

O que são citadinos?

Galego não é uma variante do espanhol? Isso não seria normal, ter uma fala parecida com o espanhol?

Quantas línguas existem na Espanha?

Galego, catalão, quais mais?

Meu professor de história um dia, deixou uma passagem que tinha um dialeto ou língua não sei bem, na Espanha, no qual sí era no e no era sí algo assim. (Não sei se era isto mesmo...)

Sobre a má construção da minha frase eu queria dizer, quando vi o "galego aportuguesado":

"Porque eu já diria, sem dúvidas, que isto é português, com toques de   espanhol, ou um português, que de leve está mais próximo do espanhol."  

Depois que vi a grafia verdadeira ai sim caberia a construção mal feita que fiz, para o primeiro contexto, omitindo o que etá de azul.

"Porque eu já diria, que é sem dúvidas, que isto é português, com toques de   espanhol, ou uma variante do espanhol ,que de leve não mudou muito."


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## marta12

Não se esqueçam que o que se falava em Portugal, como disse o XiaoRoel, era o galaico-português.


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## Vanda

Vós, recomendação: leia a discussão desde o primeiro post, abra todos os links, antes de disparar com um monte de perguntas que já foram até respondidas.


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## Vós

Lerei as primeiras postagens e verei todas "as ligaduras", não quero ser problema!

P.S.: Odeio palavras inglesas para o uso da oralidade ou escrita do português! Mas isso é apenas uma opinião minha, e tal. Inspiro-me nos franceses e alemães com o seu leve nacionalismo para com as suas línguas.


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## XiaoRoel

*Citadino*. Habitante duma urbe.


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## Vós

Eu vou me arriscar no latim.

Urbe é cidade certo?


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## XiaoRoel

Tá certo, amigo.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Vós said:


> Lerei as primeiras postagens e verei todas "as ligaduras", não quero ser problema!
> 
> P.S.: Odeio palavras inglesas para o uso da oralidade ou escrita do português! Mas isso é apenas uma opinião minha, e tal. Inspiro-me nos franceses e alemães com o seu leve nacionalismo para com as suas línguas.



Onde viu o leve nacionalismo dos alemães? É um fantasma.


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## Uticens678

XiaoRoel said:


> *Citadino*. Habitante duma urbe.


E em italiano é quase igual: cidadão=cittadino;pode ser que "citadino" é um empréstimo do italiano?


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## uchi.m




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## Istriano

Uticens678 said:


> E em italiano é quase igual: cidadão=cittadino;pode ser que "citadino" é um empréstimo do italiano?



_Citadino _se usa mais como adjetivo (_carro citadino_), com mais frequencia em Portugal que no Brasil.


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## purasbabosadas

alexacohen said:


> Been a Galician born and bred, I can tell you that Portuguese is a language and that Galician was one, but ceased to be used as written language in the Middle Ages. Its grammar was lost, and there only remained some words, names of places and a few and modal verbs.
> Politicians decided to "resurrect" the language in the last century.
> Naturally, the grammar and the new words are picked either from Portuguese or from Spanish; it depends on the colour of the government.
> And here I stop.


While browsing the forum I came across this.Is it completely true?What about rural areas where Galician is spoken?Reading this kind of discouraged me from learning the language.Thanks in advance


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## pfaa09

purasbabosadas said:


> While browsing the forum I came across this.Is it completely true?What about rural areas where Galician is spoken?Reading this kind of discouraged me from learning the language.Thanks in advance


Well, as you can see, Galician is fading into a blending of Castelhano + Galego. You can still find Galego in some places, more in the countryside, by the old folks, of course.
You should read all the replies, this is a very interesting thread.


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## purasbabosadas

pfaa09 said:


> Well, as you can see, Galician is fading into a blending of Castelhano + Galego. You can still find Galego in some places, more in the countryside, by the old folks, of course.
> You should read all the replies, this is a very interesting thread.


Is the Galician spoken in the countryside from an unbroken chain of vulgar Latin or the result of a resurrected language?


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## Dymn

An unbroken chain. Galician has been the only mother tongue of Galicians for most of their history, and only in the 20th century people in the cities started shifting to Spanish. 

The thing is, such unbroken chain has been little by little consistently Castilianized, and when people started recovering Galician for literary usage _(Rexurdimento_, 19th century), there came an awareness of such profound influence, and people sought "purer" forms of the language. I don't know much about the Galician standardization process, but it's clear to me people use many Castilianisms (both lexical and grammatical) in every sentence that aren't correct according to the standard. Weekdays are a clear example, as far as I know most Galicians just use them directly in Spanish.

As for the Galician used in TVG (the public autonomic television), it's, I guess, grammatically and lexically correct, but the phonology is just very different from proper Galician. It seems many of them aren't even native, and it shows because you could as well put someone from Madrid reading the text and there would hardly be a difference. For example many of them fail to distinguish open and closed _e _and _o_, and final _-o _is always a crystal-clear /o/ as opposed to the genuine Galician pronunciation which is closer to /u/. Prosody is also hugely different.

All of these are just observations made by a Catalan interested in Galician-Portuguese. Some of these things hold true for Catalan as well, but to a much lesser degree, in my opinion.


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