# Magic is Slavic?



## Borin3

magic | Origin and meaning of magic by Online Etymology Dictionary 

Etymonline points out the root of the word all the way to Latin, Greek, Old Persian and at the end PIE, but doesn't mention any Slavic example.
It says from PIE root *magh which means *to be able, have power.*

All the Slavic languages have the same word mog/mag which basically means _to be able/can/have power._
Since it mentions this is a PIE root, i couldn't find the same word in other at least European languages with the same meaning. (Please point out if some has it!)

So in Serbian there are following examples of the same word:
могу(*mog*u)a>o- I can/i'm able to; мoћи(*moć*i)- to be able to/can (infinitive)
мoћ(*moć)*a>o- power; мoћан(*moć*an)- powerful 
могућ(*mog*uć)a>o- possible могућност(*mog*ućnost)-possibility 

Now let's turn on to exact words that are related to magic:
мaг(*mag*)- magician/mage; мaђионичaр(*mađ*ioničar)- magician(that type which mostly performs for fun) 
мaгијa(*mag*ija)- magic
мaглa(*mag*la)- fog/mist

And so on and so on. As i'm able to find out magic as a word exists from the root of word which means "to be able to" or "to have power" and i could only find it in Slavic languages. Germanic ones seem to have different versions of "can", Latin languages mostly have Latin "potes". Thus i don't understand how come reconstructed *magh would be a PIE root. There seems to be a priest called "magush" in Old Persian so i'm interested to learn more about it. As etymonline says Greeks also had "magos" for a priest, but they don't use mag as a word which would mean what etymonline described as a reconstructed PIE word. 
Unless i'm missing something?


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

English _may_, _might_ (verb and noun) and _mighty_ are all from PIE *_magh.
_
By the way, you can click on a PIE root at etymonline.com and it will give you a list of words from that root in English and other languages. Here's what it says for *_magh_:

**magh-*


Proto-Indo-European root meaning "to be able, have power." It forms all or part of: dismay; deus ex machina; may (v.1) "am able;" might (n.) "bodily strength, power;" main; machine; mechanic; mechanism; mechano-; mage; magi; magic.

It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit mahan"great;" Greek mekhane "device, means," mekhos, makhos "means, instrument;" Old Church Slavonic mogo "to be able," mosti"power, force;" Old English mæg "I can."


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## Awwal12

Borin3 said:


> Etymonline points out the root of the word all the way to Latin, Greek, Old Persian and at the end PIE, but doesn't mention any Slavic example.


Because, obviously, parallel IE developments are largely irrelevant regarding the fate of this particular word. Of course, there were a lot, including the already mentioned English native "might" (or, say, German "mag", meaning "I/he/she/it *may*/like").


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## CyrusSH

The original word was probably itself a loanword in Old Persian.


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## Borin3

Aah i would never remember may or might. Thanks for the update. I can see the word is a link but still..

Yeah seems like word magic did't change as much as words for "be able" or "power" in different languages. What about the versions of this particular word (*magh) in Latin or Greek? I can't open etymonline right now


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## CyrusSH

I think it has a Semitic origin, compare to Arabic _makana_ "to be able, may".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> The original word was probably itself a loanword in Old Persian.





CyrusSH said:


> I think it has a Semitic origin, compare to Arabic makana "to be able, may".


_*magʰ_ is a very basic IE root. No point in speculating about loans as far as the base meaning is concerned, neither from Persian nor from Semitic.

The noun _magic_ though is ultimately a Persian loan, which in turn is from PIE _*magʰ_.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> _*magʰ_ is a very basic IE root. No point in speculating about loans as far as the base meaning is concerned, neither from Persian nor from Semitic.
> 
> The noun _magic_ though is ultimately a Persian loan, which in turn is from PIE _*magʰ_.



In Indo-Iranian _mag_ never means "to be able, may", in fact just the Germanic word means the same, Slavic _могу́_ (mogú) is first-person singular present indicative imperfective of _мочь_ (močʹ).


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## berndf

The base meaning is _having power, ability_; as an adjective _powerful, strong _and as and abstract noun _Power, might_. And that is the semantic range that produced _magus _(_the powerful/strong one_).
The Slavic verbal root in _mog_-. The palatalised and devoiced _ч_ is infinitive/supine only. In some forms you have shifts to _ж_ (_ž_).


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## CyrusSH

Do you mean the Persian word is a loanword from Slavic?


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> The base meaning is _having power, ability_; as an adjective _powerful, strong _and as and abstract noun _Power, might_. And that is the semantic range that produced _magus _(_the powerful/strong one_).
> The Slavic verbal root in _mog_-. The palatalised and devoiced _ч_ is infinitive/supine only. In some forms you have shifts to _ж_ (_ž_).


Old Russian noun _"мо*ч*ь"_ [motch] _"strength"_ and later Bolgarian (Church-Slavic) noun _"мо*щ*ь"_ [mosch].
Russian _"мо*г*ущество"_ [moguschestvo] _"power; authority"_. 

It was interesting to know, that _"magic"_ is PIE


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Old Russian noun _"мо*ч*ь"_ [motch] _"strength"_ and *later *Bolgarian (Church-Slavic) noun _"мо*щ*ь"_ [mosch].


Old Church Slavonic and Old Russian are about the same age, Old Church Slavonic is even a bit older.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Old Church Slavonic and Old Russian are about the same age, Old Church Slavonic is even a bit older.


When I say "Old Russian", I mean the language before Bolgarian language of the church was brought artificially into the Northern lands. 
Apparently, under "Old Russian" you mean something different.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> When I say "Old Russian", I mean the language before Bolgarian language of the church was brought artificially into the Northern lands.
> Apparently, under "Old Russian" you mean something different.


You cannot sensibly speak of "Russian" at all before the 10th century. East Slavic before that era is practically unattested and there is very little you can say about it.


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## CyrusSH

rushalaim said:


> It was interesting to know, that _"magic"_ is PIE



The word _magic_ has a Persian origin, it doesn't matter what similar words mean in other language (even they mean exactly "magic"), unless you prove the Persian word has the same origin.


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## eamp

That the name of the priest caste has anything to do with the Germanic/Slavic verb for "be able" is nothing more than a wild guess. It is possible in the sense that it is not impossible sound-wise, but to my knowledge the exists no root mag- with comparable meaning anywhere in Iranian, which makes it not especially likely.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> You cannot sensibly speak of "Russian" at all before the 10th century. East Slavic before that era is practically unattested and there is very little you can say about it.


Agree. So-called "Russians" are the people of Christian Empire after 10th century.
But before, there were lived tribes who had their own dialects and apparently they understood each other.


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## berndf

eamp said:


> That the name of the priest caste has anything to do with the Germanic/Slavic verb for "be able" is nothing more than a wild guess. It is possible in the sense that it is not impossible sound-wise, but to my knowledge the exists no root mag- with comparable meaning anywhere in Iranian, which makes it not especially likely.


Thanks.


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## CyrusSH

Iranian linguists believe that the name of Zoroastrian priest _magi_ relates to English _mug_ and if there was a PIE origin it meant "drinking vessel", a Persian article about it: بررسی معنی نامهای مُغ و ماگان - گروه کویرها و بیابان‌های ایران It considers the classic Persian word _max_ "fire" as a loanword from the north, compare to Russian _maják_ "beacon".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Iranian linguists believe that the name of Zoroastrian priest _magi_ relates to English _mug_ and if there was a PIE origin it meant "drinking vessel", a Persian article about it: بررسی معنی نامهای مُغ و ماگان - گروه کویرها و بیابان‌های ایران It considers the classic Persian word _max_ "fire" as a loanword from the north, compare to Russian _maják_ "beacon".


That sounds even dodgier. You cannot even trace _mug_ back beyond the 16th century within English, let alone common Germanic or PIE.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Iranian linguists believe that the name of Zoroastrian priest _magi_ relates to English _mug_ and if there was a PIE origin it meant "drinking vessel", a Persian article about it: بررسی معنی نامهای مُغ و ماگان - گروه کویرها و بیابان‌های ایران It considers the classic Persian word _max_ "fire" as a loanword from the north, compare to Russian _maják_ "beacon".


"Iranian linguist*s*"? The text is written by *one *person (Iraj Afshar) who was not a (historical) linguist. Please be more careful in referencing. 


CyrusSH said:


> The word _magic_ has a Persian origin, it doesn't matter what similar words mean in other language (even they mean exactly "magic"), unless you prove the Persian word has the same origin.


Magi were presumably a "Median" caste. So, technically their oldest somehow-attested origin would be "Median" not Persian (though it entered Greek via Persian). There is nothing known about the history of that tribe/caste prior to the Greco-Iranian contacts; neither it is clear if Persian or Medians knew the literal meaning of _maga/magu_ at that time. Thus etymology of the name is considered based on similar words in Avestan (_maga_) and Sanskrit (_magha_), as well as the Magi's divination practices (as explained in an article by Itō in _Orient_, 1987). So, this seems be the most probable explanation so far, with a considerable degree of certainty.


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