# profession libérale



## SJ313

Hello,

What does "profession libérale" mean? My dictionary translates it just as "profession". So in the document I'm working on at the moment I was translating it as "professional" (e.g. farmers, artisans, professionals - in an insurance context). I'm confused now though because later in the same document "professionnel" is used at the same time as "profession libérale":

Particuliers (73%), professionnels (exploitants agricoles (10%), artisans / commerçants, professions libérales (10%), entreprises et collectivités locales (7%)).

I'd appreciate any help. Many thanks in advance. 

SJ313

Moderator's note: several threads have been merged to create this one.


----------



## Gordo

''Liberal professions are occupations that require special training in the liberal arts or sciences. These include e.g. lawyers, engineers, architects, accountants and pharmacists.''


Google is your friend!


----------



## Quaeitur

Professions libérales in French covers all the profession where people are not employed by a company to the exclusion of farmers, small shop owners and craftspeople. It includes doctors, lawyers, architects, etc (see list on wiki)


----------



## SJ313

Based on the French definition in Wikipedia, I think I will go with "accredited professions/professionals" then. That seems to be what it means. "Liberal" doesn't really work in English in the same way.


----------



## Gordo

SJ313 said:


> Based on the French definition in Wikipedia, I think I will go with "accredited professions/professionals" then. That seems to be what it means. "Liberal" doesn't really work in English in the same way.


 
I think it does in a formal way if you don't mean liberal with a capital 'L'.


----------



## schmaetterlink

"The free professions" would be the most logical translation, but you would still need to clarify what you are talking about.

People don't really make this distinction here, although it would come in handy: have you noticed that people employed in these trades have much more job security? 

Wise Wikipedia suggests that American confusion of these terms has spread elsewhere in the Anglo-Saxon world:

"In the UK, elitism has traditionally been associated with the aristocracy, rather than well-off supporters of social change. However, the term is used similarly to American use in reference to people [...] who may be involved in the media or *the liberal professions*, for example teaching and social work."


----------



## Patriot1

How will one translate "professions liberales" en anglais? A literal translation will not do the trick.


----------



## Léa123

According to my dictionary, it would be "profession"...


----------



## Patriot1

Thanks for your reply. That is also what my dictionary says.


----------



## Quaeitur

Hello Patriot

Have you had a look at this thread on the subject yet?
this one?


----------



## Patriot1

Thanks. I read them both. Interesting discussions but in the end, there is no equivalence. The best translation is probably "white collar professionals"


----------



## Quaeitur

In _libéral_, there's also the idea that they are their own boss. Maybe _*independent *white collar professionals_, or, and it might be better: *doctors, lawyers, etc*. since these are the two broadest categories of _professions libérales _in French.


----------



## Keith Bradford

Nobody has suggested "_*the learned professions*_" (pronounced /leurnide/).

For my money these include doctors, architects, lawyers, senior engineers (and translators) -- jobs for which one has a university education -- but not plumbers, builders, bakers, etc. who are _independent tradesmen_.  

The idea of _freelance_ is quite separate - a lawyer can be freelance, i.e. self-employed (e.g. a family solicitor) or salaried (e.g. a lawyer on the payroll of a company).


----------



## Patriot1

maybe self-employed white collar professionals.


----------



## Patriot1

Are you referring to my suggestion or to "learned professions"? I do not think "learned professions" captures it. An artist is not necessarily "learned" but he belongs to "une profession liberale"
cheers


----------



## Quaeitur

Patriot1 said:


> An artist is not necessarily "learned" but he belongs to "une profession liberale"
> cheers



He does? I am really surprised by this. Have a look at this wiki article: only a small subset of artists are included.

_Professions libérales_ has two meanings in French: 
- practically speaking, it's a label used to regroup some professions that have the same _régime fiscal_
- it also refers, in every day language, to a set of independant, learned, high-earing white collar professionals, what has been called learned professionals here.


----------



## gquixote

Independent professionals like doctors, teachers, lawyers, artists, translators...
*Professionalism* suggests a set of specialised theoretical knowledge and a code of practice including ethics.
*Liberal, freelance* and *self-employed* bring to mind entrepreneurship, so:

*Entrepreneurial profession *(?)


----------



## Patriot1

I have done better than that. I have looked at the legislation. There is a technical category in addition to the medical and legal professions.  Maybe a small sub-set of artists is included but this sub-set cannot really be called "learned". Is an engineer "learned"? If he does not work for the government or a large company but runs his owns engineering consulting company, he is classified as belonging to a "profession liberale"


----------



## Quaeitur

Patriot1 said:


> Is an engineer "learned"? If he does not work for the government or a large company but runs his owns engineering consulting company, he is classified as belonging to a "profession liberale"



Not in France...

Do you have a specific context in which you're trying to translate the expression?


----------



## Patriot1

Maybe "entreprenuerial" can be used to describe anyone who works for himself or herself but the term is not commonly used to refer to professionals who are not in the hi tech or bio tech industries. One does not refer to an ambulance chasing lawyer as an "entrepreneur". I can think of many other terms to properly describe that line of work. But it is indeed a "profession liberale"


----------



## Patriot1

Quaeitur said:


> Not in France...
> 
> Do you have a specific context in which you're trying to translate the expression?


 Not really. For tax purposes, a engineer who works as a consultant is a "conseil technique". He belongs to a "profession liberale"


----------



## glamorgan

In France it is possible to be «un (une) infirmièr(e) libérale». As I understand the French health care system, these are self-employed community nurses. Generally nursing is not considered a learned profession so I think the emphasis in the occupational title is on independence and self-employment.


----------



## akaAJ

I think the cultures in different countries would include different categories in this expression.  In France, as far as I know, the essential parts are 1.  A university degree and probably a license from the State; 2.  sells services on a more or less individual basis to others (typically,lawyers, physicians in private practice, pharmacists).  I think chercheurs at CNRS, INSERM, etc., or university professors, would disdain the title, although they would accept "learned professions".  In the US, I think, the practitioners would prefer the specific category (attorney, psychologist, etc.) to the quite unfamiliar "professional classes".


----------



## Patriot1

All the comments are generally true but one does not have to have a university degree. Independent self-employed nurses, speech therapists, physical therapists or artists fall into the category of "profession liberale" but they do not have a university degree. They have diplomas from professional training schools, roughly equivalent to technical colleges in the US.


----------



## staticmouse

You don't have to have any professional qualifications/diplomas to be classified as "profession liberale". It all depends on which pigeon hole the services you offer fall into. I think the only description that applies to *all* PLs is that they are self-employed.


----------



## Patriot1

Yes and white-collared


----------



## Quaeitur

For future reference, and as the only native French speaker in the thread (with Lea that is  ), I will just state that I disagree with the interpretation that's given of the expression _profession libérale_ in this thread, as far as it would be understood in France. 

Just keep in mind that the expression means something as far as the French IRS is concerned, and something a bit different for native speakers on an everyday basis.


----------



## akaAJ

I'm not sure which definitions Quaeitur is exercised about. glamorgan's link to French wikipedia seems to cover the ground for the particular French usage of the term, and it has been noted that the practice and the culture in other countries is different.  That said, "white collar" is far too broad and undifferentiated a term for this concept, even as a partial attribute.  Registered nurses (RNs) in the US often have four-year university degrees, always have two-year plus specialization degrees, and licenses issued by the states.


----------



## mantasmagorical

isn't self-employed = auto-entrepreneur in France?


----------



## Patriot1

That is not said in French. Entrepreneur suffices


----------



## KC6ZRA

One possible translation of profession libérale is:  Professional in private practice.


----------



## tilt

_Auto-entrepreneur_ is said, but it's a specific statute in France, so it's not really a translation for _self-employed_.

http://www.lautoentrepreneur.fr/


----------



## Notafrog

KC6ZRA said:


> One possible translation of profession libérale is:  Professional in private practice.


I'd streamline that even further and just say professional practice. GP? Professional practice. Translator? Professional practice. Barrister? Professional practice. With the proviso that it's for use in descriptive translations only, not gub'mint ones where "profession libérale" remains untranslated and accompanied by a footnote if needed.


----------



## WME

My vote goes to KC6ZRA 
"Private practice professional" flows even better.


----------



## Kelly B

WME said:


> My vote goes to KC6ZRA
> "Private practice professional" flows even better.


Ordinarily I would agree, but in this instance I'd keep KC's wording in order to break up the plosives and the rhythm of the phrase a little bit. Private practice professionals prefer polyphony. (Polyphony is the wrong word, but you probably perceive my point.)


----------



## Keith Bradford

I agree with Kelly.  At first view, I didn't understand "Private practice professional.


----------



## Malcius

In a leasing contract "Celui-ci [_referring to the_ _locataire_] ne pourra donc y exercer aucune activité professionnelle, même libérale, mais..."

"He may not, therefore carry out any professional activity there, even if of a private practice nature, but..."

Does this work?


----------



## Keith Bradford

Don't you think "of a private practice nature" sounds a bit clunky?  I think the point the French writer is trying to get across is _une profession_ (a business) and _une profession libérale_ (a profession).  I would make this explicit as "... any business or professional activity there".


----------



## Laurent2018

I think we could say "non-commercial professions": celles qui traditionnellement n'étaient pas immatriculées au registre du commerce.
Actuellement, toutes les activités indépendantes sont immatriculées dans une banque de données unique et chacune reçoit un "numéro d'entreprise", même les artistes !!


----------



## lucpotage

I read this article from the French civil service: Professions libérales : quel statut juridique et comment déclarer l'activité ?

It seems *Independant Contractor* mainly defines what “*profession libérale*” means.
Doctors, dentists, lawyers are classified this way by the IRS: Independent Contractor: Definition, How Taxes Work, and Example

Most of the time, it's related to regulated professions where you have to comply to specific rules. But it's not always the case, like prime contractors in France.


----------



## Kelly B

Edit: Welcome, Lucpotage!

I think indep*e*ndent contractor is too broad, as it covers self-employed people who aren't professionals in the learnèd sense. Gig workers like Uber drivers fit that tax classification, too.


----------

