# Etymology of Barbacane



## Margrave

Hi! I was looking into the etymology of the French word barbacane, which is a military construction with loopholes to facilitate shooting the enemy outside the city/fortress wall. The etymology would be in the Arabic word _bârbâk-khaneh_. I wonder if this Arabic word really exists and if yes, which is the meaning.

Any advice is welcome!


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## analeeh

This is Farsi, not Arabic.


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## Treaty

I don't think there is such a  Persian. However, it is possible that Ottomans had made such a word by combining Arabic _bāb _(door) and Persian _xāna _(house).


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## Margrave

Treaty said:


> I don't think there is such a  Persian. However, it is possible that Ottomans had made such a word by combining Arabic _bāb _(door) and Persian _xāna _(house).


Thank you. Could _bârbâk-khaneh_ be then a Turkish word, imported from Arabic and Farsi?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

The French didn't invent the word.
In Spanish, we also have "barbacana".
I looked up the etymology, and it seems to come from the Andalusian Arabic, meaning "door for the cows" _báb albaqqára_ 
A search in the TLF confirms it.


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## Margrave

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> The French didn't invent the word.
> In Spanish, we also have "barbacana".
> I looked up the etymology, and it seems to come from the Andalusian Arabic, meaning "door for the cows" _báb albaqqára_
> A search in the TLF confirms it.


Thank you very much for the TLF link. Precious information there. However seems like _bârbâk-khaneh_ is not a farsi word as mentioned there according to @Treaty . The evolution báb al-baqqára>barbacane seems a bit out of the usual curve. But etymology evolution can result in some bizarre word changes anyway.


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## Treaty

Given the word existed in 12th c. I don't think a Persian etymology is likely. The RAE entry doesn't provide evidence for an earlier Andalusian attestation; besides its transliteration is wrong. The second element is written as _baqqāra_ which means female shepherd, blacksmith or lattice-maker. .


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Treaty said:


> Given the word existed in 12th c. I don't think a Persian etymology is likely. The RAE entry doesn't provide evidence for an earlier Andalusian attestation; besides its transliteration is wrong. The second element is written as _baqqāra_ which means female shepherd, blacksmith or lattice-maker. .


I don't know any Arabic, so I can't defend the RAE assertion. Notice, however, that Andalusian Arabic did not form the plural the same way as classic Arabic and that  this other French etymological dictionary seems to support the RAE.


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## Derakhshan

The walled-in portion of Andalusian forts was called _baqqār_ or albacar, and used for sheltering of cattle.

See here: https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/eger_dissertation.pdf


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Interesting. The word passed almost unchanged into Spanish
albacara | Diccionario de la lengua española
and Portuguese
Consulte o significado / definição de albacara no Dicionário Priberam da Língua Portuguesa, o dicionário online de português contemporâneo.


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## Margrave

@Treaty @MonsieurGonzalito @Derakhshan thank you very much!  I had a feeling albacara and barbacan are different things and have different etymologies. After reading your input, I am convinced that this is true. The philologists back in the 19th century did a real mess, mixing those two different words. And this mistake is being copied from one dictionary to the next since 174 years ago. No critical review on it, only we here are doing this now.


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## Margrave

Treaty said:


> Given the word existed in 12th c. I don't think a Persian etymology is likely. The RAE entry doesn't provide evidence for an earlier Andalusian attestation; besides its transliteration is wrong. The second element is written as _baqqāra_ which means female shepherd, blacksmith or lattice-maker. .


If I understand well, _baqar_ is cow but _baqqara_ is female sheperd, right?


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## Derakhshan

_baqqāra_ is also a plural of _baqqār_, like in the name of the Baggāra tribes in Sudan and the Sahel.


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## Margrave

Thank you.


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## bearded

The word _barbacane _exists also in Italian. Here is what I found in our Etymologic Dictionary (I hope you can read Italian.  An Arabic origin of the 'barba' part - 'barbakh' -  is not excluded):
Etimologia : barbacane


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## Margrave

bearded said:


> The word _barbacane _exists also in Italian. Here is what I found in our Etymologic Dictionary (I hope you can read Italian.  An Arabic origin of the 'barba' part - 'barbakh' -  is not excluded):
> Etimologia : barbacane


Hi! Thank you. Yes I can read Italian  _Khaneh_ is attested as _house_ in Farsi. But, seems that _bârbâk_ does not to exist in Arabic or Farsi. For this reason, I think _barba_(cane) could not come from a word that is not attested _(bârbâk) _in any language. Anybody know to which language_ bârbâk_ belongs?


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## Quiviscumque

When F. Corriente speaks, amateurs should keep quiet 
"The hypothesis is not only acceptable but irreplaceable"


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## Margrave

@Quiviscumque thank you.  He takes this etymology from Coromines, it seems. But I do not agree when he says that it is not replaceable, because we see several of Coromines propositions being questioned these days. In this way human knowledge advances and improves!
Edit: please, what is the name of this book by F. Corrientes and the page of this citation? Thank you!


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## Quiviscumque

Margrave said:


> @Quiviscumque thank you.  He takes this etymology from Coromines, it seems. But I do not agree when he says that it is not replaceable, because we see several of Coromines propositions being questioned these days. In this way human knowledge advances and improves!


F. Corriente is, by far, the most knowlodgeable scholar in these issues (Arabic- Romance interaction in Iberia). In fact, he contradicts Corominas  quite a few times. But not _this_ time ...


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## Margrave

Quiviscumque said:


> F. Corriente is, by far, the most knowlodgeable scholar in these issues (Arabic- Romance interaction in Iberia). In fact, he contradicts Corominas  quite a few times. But not _this_ time ...


I am sure of this. Please, what is the name of this book by F. Corrientes and the page(s) of this citation? Thank you!


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## Quiviscumque

I bowsed my bookshelves in vain but, as usual, Google knows better:
https://www.uco.es/ucopress/ojs/ind...ad/8312/7787&usg=AOvVaw0ba2mnNF4Gtzfrd9Nj-3xV


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## Margrave

Thank you very much!


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## Quiviscumque

You are welcome!


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## Rocko!

A book of the year 1600 says "new verb" 





But that's not true because other italian book of 1521 says "vulgarmente si dicono Barbacane". 
By the way, the Spaniard Lope de Vega wrote in 1638:
_Porque los moros mañana
no siéndoles defendida
la villa entrarán rendida
dejando en su *barba cana
la mía en sangre teñida._

*not "barbacana" but  "barba cana".


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## Margrave

Thank you. I checked on my side, found citations back in the year 1179. Please, from which country is that book from 1600?


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## symposium

If I may just add to the confusion, Italian Wikipedia suggests an Anglo-Saxon origin, from "barge-kenning" (urbis seu propugnaculi specula). In Google Books there's a 1856 English Dictionary by Charles Richardson where he ascribes this theory to a Spel. whose full name I wasn't able to find. He also writes: Thwaltes asks, May it not be burh-beacon?.


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## Rocko!

Margrave said:


> Thank you. I checked on my side, found citations back in the year 1179. Please, from which country is that book from 1600?


From Italia. The book's name is _Italiae illvstratae_, by Andrea Cambieri.
Check the subheading "DE MVRIS, POMOERIIS".
ITALIAE ILLVSTRATAE SEV RERVM, VRBIVMQVE ITALICARVM SCRIPTORES VARII, NOTAE melioris

Other very old examples are:
Colección de documentos inéditos del Archivo General de la Corona de Aragón.
Pergamino N. 281. 3 de enero de *1207*:

*"*_et construatis ibi villas et forciacum muros et sine muros et cum vallibus et_* barbacanis"*
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/pdf.raw?query=id:"0000178979"&page=3275&view=main&lang=es&search=barbacanis#search="barbacanis"&view=FitH&toolbar=1&navpanes=0&statusbar=0&messages=0

and of the year *1240*:
_"turres cum *barbacanis *que sunt in capite pontis lignei et omnia illa operatoria francha et libera inter duas portas teneat in vita sua"_.
http://bdh-rd.bne.es/pdf.raw?query=id:"0000178979"&page=5322&view=main&lang=es&search=barbacanis#search="barbacanis"&view=FitH&toolbar=1&navpanes=0&statusbar=0&messages=0

If you need more documentation, check_ Lateinisch-romanisches Wörterbuch_, by Gustav Körting:





There are many other resources but you have to search so much to find them.


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## Margrave

@Rocko! Thank you so much for your time and posting here these valuable sources.


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## Margrave

symposium said:


> Thwaltes asks, May it not be burh-beacon?


Hi! Thank you. Looks like the meaning is of a reinforced tower at the fortress/city walls.


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