# HR 4437 -- proposed immigration reforms



## fenixpollo

Here are some points in of a proposed immigration law, approved by the U.S. House of Representatives: (source: wikipedia)





> Building up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border
> Law-enforcement agents (the police) must arrest illegal immigrants, ending the current practice of "catch and release"...
> Employers will verify workers' legal status using an electronic system, which is not being used yet.
> Eliminates the _Green Card Lottery_ program.
> All illegals being deported can choose to leave "voluntarily", but if they don't leave, then they must pay a fine of $3,000.
> Requires the Department of Homeland Security to report to Congress on the number of OTMs (Other Than Mexicans) arrested and deported...
> All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state. (link)
> Anyone who lets an illegal immigrant stay in their house will be considered a felon and the person will serve at least 3 years in prison.


_It's not a law yet._ _The Senate has to match this version to their own version, then both houses have to approve it... and it has hit a roadblock in the Senate._

I started this thread because of a discussion in another thread. I'm starting it to inform our foreros and to open the floor for debate on this issue. 

Also, I'm curious whether foreros in the U.S. have participated or plan to participate in the demonstrations in the various cities, such as the 100,000+ march that's happening in Phoenix this Monday.

Finally, I'd like to know what foreros from other countries with immigration "issues", like Spain and Germany, think about the American approach.

Thanks!


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## Residente Calle 13

> Requires up to 700 miles (1100 km) of fence along the US-Mexican border Like the Maginot Line? The border is 2000 miles long!
> 
> Requires the federal government to take custody of illegal aliens detained by local authorities. This would end the practice of "catch and release"...Isn't that a fishing term?
> Mandates employers to verify workers' legal status through electronic means, phased in over several years. And they'll comply. Yeah, right.
> Eliminates the _Green Card Lottery_ program And reduce _*legal *_immigraition?
> 
> All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state. So we have to feed and house their kids now? Are we now doing the opposite of what we did with Elian!? Are we gonna send in SWAT teams so that the kids stay?
> Housing of illegals will be considered a felony and subject to no less than 3 years in prison. And this will be enforced by...and how much is that gonna cost me?



This bill is retarded! Who passed such a stupid bill? Oh. The US Congress. Gotta love 'em. They are going to get clobbered in November if those stupid provisions don't get taken out. I suspect that they will. Not even the US Congress is that stupid.


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## danielfranco

I'm only a resident, not yet a citizen, but I understand the concept that a reform to immigration laws is overdue. However, did they had to try to fix all and every single immigration issue in one fell swoop? Who would even contemplate such a political showdown?
Ah, yes, presidential candidates start shaping up for next year, I see...


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## Residente Calle 13

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I'm only a resident, not yet a citizen, but I understand the concept that a reform to immigration laws is overdue. However, did they had to try to fix all and every single immigration issue in one fell swoop? Who would even contemplate such a political showdown?
> Ah, yes, presidential candidates start shaping up for next year, I see...



I think they're confusing "do something" with "do anything."


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## fenixpollo

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Like the Maginot Line? The border is 2000 miles long!.


 The actual wording of the bill says "700 miles of additional fencing".  There are already fences across wide swaths of the California & Texas borders, and through all of the towns in which there is no river to separate the two countries.  Congress is just budgeting to expand the existing fence... I think the goal of the people who want the fence is to have an unbroken barrier from the Pacific to the Rio Grande.


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## danielfranco

And, in doing anything at all, they are managing to alienate even the legal immigrants. At least they've garnered the favor of distinguished gentlemen such as the Minute-men and others of similar upstanding qualities and proclivities.


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## ElaineG

I'm hardly an expert in the topic, but isn't the Senate bill very different in important and meaningful respects?


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## Txiri

*All children born to illegal immigrants in the United States will become wards of the state.*

This may actually be included in the provisions of this proposed law, but "that doesn't mean they can get away with it."

Our state lawmakers voted to put up (again) the Ten Commandments somewhere outside the state capitol building, including, this time, exhibitions and references to other icons of the Judeo Christian tradition.  Supposedly that might pass muster of the Supreme Court.  Only one state senator voted against it, courageously I think, saying, it was only inevitably going to attract future challenges, and consequently use up state money to defend the position in the courts.

I repeat, they can't summarily remove children from the custody of their parents.  I do see your point-- turning them into felons-- they lose "certain valuable civil rights, such as the right to vote, the right to hold public office, the right to sit on a  jury, and the right to bear arms."  They don't lose custody of their children, but I suppose if mother and father are both jailed ... who does in fact take care of the children?  But they can't mandate _*government *_custody.

One, I think from a purely practical standpoint, and in view of the cost of housing inmates in prisons, and in view of the vast numbers of illegal immigrants already here, it is patent nonsense and sheer folly to propose the criminalization of illegal status.

Two, on top of housing all the parents in prisons, they're going to house all the "wards" -- where, exactly?  Maybe they have some brilliant idea such as Jonathan Swift suggested in his brilliant "A Modest Proposal" in 1729?  http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

Three, the family values folks, if they are indeed sincere, would be forced ideologically to take a stand against making "wards" of thousands of immigrant children.  (Of course, many of them already only support protecting children who are still in the womb, and once they're no longer in the womb, they are suddenly on their own.  So don't expect any ideological fortitude here.)

Four, the parental bond is not to be broken lightly, and grassroots groups are going to raise all kinds of hell over the dilemmas involved.  Ultimately, it is a civil rights matter, it will be a civil rights matter, and if our lawmakers persist in the folly, it will be fought all the way to the Supreme Court.  And don't forget the Justices can be impeached-- nor that all the members of the House of Representatives must defend their seats THIS YEAR.

There was a recent issue of The Atlantic Monthly devoted to the immigration debate.  My neighbor has a copy of it, and I can probably borrow it.  

Oh, it's terribly embarrassing to have such a coterie as these, elected to public office.


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## Residente Calle 13

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I think the goal of the people who want the fence is to have an unbroken barrier from the Pacific to the Rio Grande.


Jajaja. What are the going to the about the coasts? Not everybody who sneaks in here crosses the river. And I know plenty of people without a status who flew here.

I think the goal of the people who want the fence is to do something that appears to help solve a problem even though it really doesn't. En españól eso se llama _querer tapar el sol con un dedo_. (In Spanish, that's called trying to block the sun with one finger?)

In a way, it's not such a bad idea. If we really tighten the borders only smart, determined, and creative people will sneak into the US (and narcotraficantes who have the money and the technology to do it). 

But the influx of smarter people from the South should raise our collective IQs in a few years and we won't get stupid bills like this in future generations.


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## Bilma

The problem is very complex but you can't make something illegal , legal. All the illigal people who live in the United States shoulnd't be demonstrating and flying the flags of thier countries , they have broken the law and that is the bottom line. At least they should show a little respect for the country they are living in.  I think they are just making the things more difficult for those who have entered the country legaly.


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## cuchuflete

The law, as proposed---and it's already dead in committee--is extraordinarily stupid.

Let's look at who might benefit from this dog's breakfast of dumb ideas:

1. Employers of hard working immigrants?  No.
2. Legal and illegal immigrants already in the country? No.
"entry level" wages might rise, short term, but price inflation would also increase, leaving no net gain.
3. *AFSCME* (*American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees*) For sure!  Think of the hundreds of thousands of additional burrrrocrats needed to enforce this crap.
4. Taxpayers?  No, they will pay higher taxes to employ those mentioned in #3!
5. Congressmen and Congresswomen running for re-election?
Maybe.  They can say that "I helped pass a strict immigration bill, but it was defeated in conference committee."


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## Residente Calle 13

Bilma said:
			
		

> The problem is very complex but you can't make something illegal , legal. All the illigal people who live in the United States shoulnd't be demonstrating and flying the flags of thier countries , they have broken the law and that is the bottom line. At least they should show a little respect for the country they are living in.  I think they are just making the things more difficult for those who have entered the country legaly.



People aren't illegal. In this country, we allow people to demonstrate and to fly any flag they want. In this country, you have the right to offend and you don't need a US passport to do it. With liberty and justice for *all* not just those who pledge allegiance to the stars and stripes.

Ummm, about making something illegal legal...take a look at the 21st Ammendment of the US Constitution. While you're there, take a glance at the First Ammendment too.


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## Yuribear

Hi fenixpollo,

We are living this issue very much at home. My husband works with migrant workers here in CA. He first came to work with César Chavez and although he is a US citizen now, he is very much a Mexican at heart. We know first hand the troubles and pains that immigrants have to go through in this country of immigrants. Immigrants that put the food on the table of every single american, that take care of the children, that clean the homes, that build the homes, that do all the hard jobs that americans are not doing. (I could go on forever.... ) 

This recent political move (to delay the discussion) ... will only give us more time to continue with the demonstrations..... we will be there tomorrow at the march in San Diego. Many friends and co-workers are joining (some anglo too).

Many of our friends who are "postulants" to become "criminals"  and that are not mexican... are too afraid to go out publicly and demonstrate, but they are willing to join the National Strike. 

It is expected that the march tomorrow afternoon will be humongous!!
Will keep you posted


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## Outsider

I found this posted in another site.


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## fenixpollo

Bilma said:
			
		

> The problem is very complex but you can't make something illegal , legal. All the ill*e*gal people who live in the United States shoul*dn't *be demonstrating and flying the flags of thier countries*.* *T*hey have broken the law and that is the bottom line. At least they should show a little respect for the country they are living in. I think they are just making the things more difficult for those who have entered the country legal*l*y.


 Why is there legal and illegal immigration?  Because the government says that only X number of people can enter the country each year.  Who sets that number?  What is it based on?

The answer is that it's an arbitrary number set by bureaucrats.  It's not based on reality: the need that the immigrants have to escape hardship in their home countries and find opportunities in ours; and the need that we have for people who will work hard in the lowest-paying jobs.

As far as I'm concerned, those people who entered the country "illegally" are not criminals the same as thieves, drug dealers, child molesters and murderers.  They're just people trying to improve their lives.

Bilma, do you wave _your_ country's flag?  Where did _your _family immigrate from?


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## Mariaguadalupe

It is a very complex problem. Furthermore, it is not two dimensional. 

As far as I understood, this proposal was aiming to declare felons not only all of those who entered illegally into the States but also those children who were born to those who entered illegally. 

If the border wall is built, it will be one of the greatest ironies in this century. Why? Wasn't it President Reagan who said, "Mr. Gorbachev, throw down that wall?" The one country who defends democracy and liberty is now building a similar wall that separated Germany? Some of you will say, it is not the same because we are talking about two different countries. Aha. Hmm...

Reality check,

I live on the border with Texas on the Mexican side. We are divided by the Rio Grande which is basically 100 yards or so (or less) between our cities. We are even called "Sister Cities". We share so much and our communities are so intertwined that if one half fails the other will tumble too. I'd say, at this time, the city on the north is more dependent on us on the south than we are. If I were no longer allowed into the States, I would still be able to carry out my daily life but I would no longer go over and do my groceries. Just ask the BBB how it fared immediately after 911. Ask how many stores had to shut down and business dwindle because of its aftermath. 

Another point is that many mexican residents have half of their families Stateside, legally. Many families have been divided through the years and you'd be able to find brothers and sisters, _each born in a different country_.  _We may have in a single family some siblings born in México and some in the States (legally)._ We have as many american citizens living here legally and illegally. Were they born illegally in the States? Most probably not. Illegal births along the border have risen in the last 15 to 20 years but not before that. No matter what many people say.

Another argument they use is that the border is extremely violent.
Laredo is an extremely violent city. Yet if you speak with custom brokers, people in the maquila industry, they'll say that they go along their business as usual. I watch american news late at night and there is always a couple of crimes in the news. More than in México? No, I don't think so. Just what a growing city has to face anywhere in the country. Is it gang related? Not always and not regularly. 

There was a proposal, if I'm not mistaken by Sen. Kennedy that would allow for working visas that could be renewed at a set time. For me, as a foreigner, this would be a very viable solution. Why? I know of many people who have gone across illegally, that given the chance, they wouldn't resign their nationality, whatever it may be. They want to be able to travel back and forth. They just want a chance to work legally.

Please do not misunderstand me, I live and work in México. I have not applied, nor do I believe that will I apply either for residency or citizenship in the United States. I respect the States. I am a Mexican. I love my country.


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## cuchuflete

As MaríaGuadalupe explains, this is a multi-dimensional problem. Politics on both sides of the border, and between US political parties, and within factions of US political parties, makes it difficult to address with reason.

The proposed wall is the height of stupidity. Here are just a few of the reasons why it is a bad idea (I could write for hours with more...this is just a sample.)

-It won't work!
After spending billions of dollars on fences and walls, the regime in power will need to spend billions more on Coast Guard craft. Would-be migrants who cannot come by land, and who often pay 'coyotes' huge sums to guide them across, will simply choose a different route. Of course some will try creative, and often deadly, smuggling in cargo containers on both trucks and railroads. Others will attempt to cross walls and fences.
- It will take years to construct.  In the meantime, migrants will go where the walls have yet to be built.
- The "national security" used as a pitiful pretext will not be increased at all. Any would-be terrorist will enter from Canada, or by air with a valid tourist visa. Terrorists are well financed, and don't have to enter through inhospitable deserts.
- The economic effects on both the US and on México will be negative and severe.
- The seige mentality will further erode the hospitible and democractic (sometimes!) traditions of the US.
- The lack of an 'escape valve' for Mexican labor without employment prospects at home will destabilize a country that is making small but meaningful steps away from corrupt single-party rule. (If you think single party rule is good, look at the corruption in the US with both the executive and both houses of the legislative branch under control of a single party.)
-lack of remitances earned in the US will further injure the poorest Mexican families.
-US agriculture will have to pay considerably higher wages, when it is able to attract needed workers at all, increasing the price of food for all US citizens.

Solutions will not be easy.  A wall is among the easiest actions, but it is not a part of a solution.


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## Mariaguadalupe

One not very well known fact on why our (mexican) agricultural economy has dwindled as much as it has, is that when NAFTA came into effect, México was under the obligation to import grain (and other goods) from the US. (Of course someone very high up the mexican government benefitted from this. We won't say who.) This was done so that american farmer would benefit. The result was the crops on the mexican side were left on the mexican farmers fields because nobody would buy their crop. However, for more than 10 years now, agricultural production has been declining steadily. Those who have left their lands here in México have gone across to what they have always done here.


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## Brioche

I don't live in the US, and have no intention of becoming a resident of the US.

However, I have worked, legally, in Canada and the EU. I did all the right things to get the residence permits, work permits, pay the tax, &c in those countries.

When I visited the United States, I went through the rigmarole and got a visa, so I was legally in the country.

If I want to visit the US now as a tourist, I can enter under the Visa Waiver program, provided I have a machine-readable passport with digital photo or integrated chip,
but I can be refused entry at the whim of immigration when I arrive. 

If I come by air, I will be subjected to searching, even strip searching, if the TSA doesn't like my face.

If I wanted to live, work or study in the USA I would need to get a visa, prove all sorts of things about myself, submit to police checks, &c &c.

So, I find it absurd that people can just sneak over the border, ignoring all these checks, and stay as long as they like.

I also wonder how "undocumented immigrants" get round US tax law. On your 1040 you have to quote your Social Security Number. 
If you are undocumented, how do you legally get a Social Security Number?

I thought the income tax offences were felonies - after all that's how they got Al Capone, isn't it?

So how can undocumented immigrants avoid breaking the law with regard to tax?


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## fsabroso

Hola Brioche,

US no ve igual a un Australiano como a un Latinoamericano, son las mismas leyes, pero no son evaluados de la misma manera. 

Respecto al TAX, hay muchos inmigrantes ilegales que si pagan impuestos, no necesitan el Social Security Number, el IRS les brinda un numero ITIN Number (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number), no importa si eres ilegal, US recibira tu dinero.


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## VenusEnvy

_:: putting on devil's advocate hat ::_


So, this proposal seeks to address the issue of illegal immigration? But, legal immigrants and those with termporary visas are not "touched"? 

*Why are people against stopping illegal immigration? * Afterall, they are here ILLEGALLY. There are thousands of people who want to live in the United States, and in order to do so, they do through the process and the paperwork of becoming a citizen. Why shouldn't Mexicans have to do the same thing? Why should they be allowed to come to the United States, reap the benefits of this country, and send the money back to their countries without due process? Do they pay taxes? Do they contribute to the community? In what ways?

When does the United States stop letting people in? When is enough people too many? Why should Mexicans be treated differently?

_:: scurries away with tail between legs ::_


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## cuchuflete

Hi Venus,

I'll take the bait, and play devil's advocate's advocate, just to see if I can shed some logical rust on all this. Anyone who chooses to take me seriously should do so at their own risk.


"There are thousands of people who want to live in the United States, and in order to do so, they do through the process and the paperwork of becoming a citizen. Except those born here, who go through no process or paperwork. Shouldn't we burden all people equally, and make adolescents demonstrate some knowledge of G. Washington and the cherry tree, along with basic proficiency in English? We make them study and pass a test to get trivial things like a driver's license. Why not ask for demonstrated competency for citizenship as well?

OH! All the ones who fail the language test? MMmmmmm...we could export them to some country with a low birth rate, and in need of cheap, low-skilled labor. How about Italy or Saudi Arabia?

 Why shouldn't Mexicans have to do the same thing? Why should they be allowed to come to the United States, reap the benefits of this country, Do the "reap the benefits" more than any other person who works here?   and send the money back to their countries Any good Republican will tell you that what people do with their own money is none of your effin business!  without due process Due process includes paying sales tax for whatever they buy here...so they pay the same consumption tax as all other residents. ? Do they pay taxes?  You bet. See the above. If their American Citizen Employers are not lawbreakers, they have social security and personal income tax withheld from their wages. They are less likely than others to file a tax return, and thus contribute MORE than an average working person's share in taxes. Yes, illegal immigrants pay higher taxes, net, than most other people, IF their employers are behaving honestly, which we just know all Americans do, all of the time, with exceptions enough to fill 768 posts. Do they contribute to the community? In what ways? This is for the parlour pink crowd: They provide multi-Kultrul deeeversity! What more could you ask? And, for the rapacious Kapitalists--they provide cheap labor to good capitalists, thus fueling the economy. If I haven't ticked someone off, just PM me and I'll try again.

 When does the United States stop letting people in? When is enough people too many? Are you advocating an absolute end to family planning, a.k.a. the pill, condoms, abstinence etc.? Most of those who 'get in' are born here, legally continuing to overpopulate the planet. Americans are not, by nature, prejudiced---or so we are taught. Thus, we shouldn't discrimminate among classes of overpopulaters, should we?


Why should Mexicans be treated differently?"  They are our neighbors.  

Why should Mexicans be treated differently? (Part II) 
*When my grandparents immigrated to the US, there were no laws governing the number of immigrants, or quotas by country of origin. Mexicans should not be treated differently!! 
The immigration controls and quotas were installed to
satisfy the bigotry of a former majority. Mexicans should receive the same treatment that millions of Europeans immigrants received: Come, work, build a life,
learn the local language, add to the melting pot.

Now, what's so damned hard about that?
*


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## maxiogee

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> When does the United States stop letting people in? When is enough people too many? Why should Mexicans be treated differently?



Ask the First Nations when to stop people coming in. They tried to resist the incomers and were treatied into submission.




			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> When is enough people too many?



About one hundred years before you realise it.




			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Why should Mexicans be treated differently?


Differently than whom? Than the thousands of illegal Irish who are hoping yet again that they, having missed out on all the previous free-for-all visa schemes which legitimised their elder brothers and sisters, will be allowed to remain - when they went there with the sole intention of staying. 

They are not economic migrants, they are not political refugees, they are not a persecuted minority, their homeland is well able nowadays to look after them, employ them, offer them healthcare, and house them.

They availed of our free education system - even up to college level and then fecked off without even a 'thank you'. Fecked off from a country whose politicians are now lobbying American senators and representatives to make allowances and treat them liberally and with compassion. These self-same Irish politicians are doing everything in their power to limit and prevent legal and illegal immigration into Ireland of economic and political migrants from "third world" countries - at the behest of Britain and the EU. It's sickening to be Irish at present and see this going on. Ireland depended heavily on emigration in the last hundred and more years. We really needed other countries to take our constantly swelling population. They went abroad and made successful lives for themselves at a time when to do so in Ireland would have been impossible. Now we deter others from using us as we used others in the past.
I don't know what the American legislators will do, but I know what I'd encourage them to do. Ask all illegals to get out and apply - in person - in the US embassy in their homeland, and then I'd be very cautious about who I'd accept.


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## Chaska Ñawi

One of the keystones of NAFTA and all the other "free trade" deals is that only the corporations may move freely across borders, not the workers.

Canada is in the process of deporting several thousand Portuguese immigrants, almost all of whom were in the construction trade and working in Canada for several years.  They owned homes, paid taxes pending their citizenship hearings, were solid members of the community ..... and were working in a chronically understaffed area of the economy.  Their requests for immigrant status were turned down.  A few workers from Argentina were shipped home at the same time.  

However, it sounds as if we're dealing with bureaucracy at its worst; while you people south of the border are dealing with bureaucracy at its worst combined with rampant xenophobia.  The bit about "impounding" the children of illegal immigrants is particularly chilling.


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## Outsider

I apologize for stepping a little outside the topic, but do you think the recent change of government in Canada had something to do with the deportations, Chaska?


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## Chaska Ñawi

I hate to admit it, Outsider, but I don't believe that this is in response to our new government.  We used to have a very friendly policy toward immigrants back in the Trudeau years, but this has gradually changed under both conservative and liberal management.  We've had other similar deportations before Harper came to power ...just not on this scale.

In some circles people believe that this is a deliberate strategy to demonstrate how ridiculous the law is, sort of a first salvo to get it rescinded.  I'd be curious to know whether the proposed bill to the south was a similar response, or whether it was all for real.


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## Residente Calle 13

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> Canada is in the process of deporting several thousand Portuguese immigrants, almost all of whom were in the construction trade and working in Canada for several years.



Too bad for Canada. If I had anything to do with it, I'd get them papers to live here. Wherever they go, that place will be better off.


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## love4lingua

Im sorry that this may be a little long winded, however it is something which is current in Britain too, which i would like to share with you and immigration is something which i feel quite strongly about.  

In Britain we have a similar problem with immigrants due to The Channel Tunnel.  I am not sure how it works in the U.S. but here, they arrive here and are normally exploited in order to fill jobs which the Brits think too inferior of doing.  Sound similar?  One such example was a couple of years ago, when some Chinese immigrants had been smuggled into the country in a van and were employed as cockle pickers on Morcambe Bay.  It was eventually publicised when many of them lost their lives when the tide came in (they didn't notice as they were working at night) and they drowned.  It is an awful story.  

I think that many immigrants think that Britain is a great place to live in and have this great big stereotype that you come here and get rich...well, i suppose from their perspective it is, economically speaking.  The truth is that we get totally ripped off, but atleast the majority of Brits have a roof over their heads and aren't left to fend for themselves.  Immigrants get the same treatment as Brits, more or less.  If an immigrant comes here, then he/she is entitled to a free house, food vouchers, clothes, all paid for by the tax payer, which is what an unemployed Brit would also be entitled to.  (Thus the tax payer pays up to 40% tax if he/she earns £37,000/$60,000 a year, which may sound a good wage to some, but think of how expensive it is to live here: first time buyers have problems buying a house!  The cheapest price for a house in an okay area in the north is around £120,000/$200,000.  Moan, moan.) I agree with it to a certain extent, because some of the immigrants generally have problems in their own countries.  However, many of them take advantage of the fact that they can live here for free.  

I think the proposed law in America sounds ridiculous, how could they do that to people who have lived there for a long time and feel like Americans?  Also, how unfair would that be to the families!  On another note, i must say, which Yuribear made me think of (sorry i haven't learned how to quote yet), when i went to New York to visit a friend of mine, i was disgusted to see how my 'friend' treated her cleaner, who was Latin American.  I was so excited to have been able to speak to a native speaker of Spanish and my 'friend' totally snubbed her and spoke to her in such a degrading way.  I know i cannot generalise for that type of behaviour, but my family in the States have told me that people take that approach to Latin Americans a lot.  Why can Mexicans as well as other citizens of Latin American countries not be respected in America and also be legally accepted, if they contribute to society, socially and economically?


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## Residente Calle 13

love4lingua said:
			
		

> Why can Mexicans as well as other citizens of Latin American countries not be respected in America and also be legally accepted, if they contribute to society, socially and economically?


If we did that, who would mown the lawn for minimum wage? You know how much hotels would have to pay legal residents to clean rooms? Of course Latin Americans contribute. So did the children working in the mines and the slaves of Ancient Rome.

Where I live, people who mowed the lawn used to be young Italian Americans. They were not illegal nor especially poor people. Maybe their father or uncle started a lanscaping company and they did that work on the side for some extra cash. Ditto for the pizzerias (the owners are still Italian).

Now, it's all Mexicans. Where did those Italian boys go? Do you have armies of unemployed Italian-Americans somewhere? Nah. I have quite a few friends who used to do that work, they are working white collars jobs. They've gone to college and now work in Midtown Manhattan or Wall Street. They would never go back to putting pizzas in ovens or mowing lawns. They've moved on. The economy has expanded enough to accomodate those Mexicans (and my Italian-American friends). 

It's not a zero sum game. Job growth is real. But people think they are "stealing our jobs" or forget that when they were in High School they were trimming hedges themselves.

In New York we have a lot Mexicans now (Thank God). I imagine they are the Mexicans Pete Wilson chased away. Good for us. Working in a pizzeria and mowing lawns sucks. At least that's what my Italian-American friends say. They don't give a crap if they are illegal or not. I say, better the Mexicans than me. It gets hot in NYC in the summer!


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## love4lingua

That brings another question to mind. If you're an immigrant, does that mean that you should do jobs which are considered derogatory-forever? I might be stereotyping there myself, but it is hard to know the cultural difference as i do not live there.


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## Residente Calle 13

love4lingua said:
			
		

> That brings another question to mind. If you're an immigrant, does that mean that you should do jobs which are considered derogatory-forever? I might be stereotyping there myself, but it is hard to know the cultural difference as i do not live there.


Well, take France not very long ago. Many Portuguese went to France to work. From what I understand the Portuguese used to be considered "the maids" of France but they are not, as far as I understand, still considered the "maids." I met some who work the same jobs that everybody else works.

Where my dad lives, in Rhode Island, the Portuguese were the fisherman but that's not a profession that is reserved for foreigners. I guess they fished and fish because they know how. They do other things too, just like everybody else.

Recent immigrants built the buildings around here and the recent immigrants are still building the buildings. It's hard work but nothing has changed except that the recent immigrants are from another place now. 

Fortunately, we are still building stuff so we are stuck with problems that have to do with people trying to get in. The country of my parent's have the opposite problem. I'd rather be on this side and have these kinds of problems.


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## fenixpollo

There's no rule that illegal immigrants work "derogatory" jobs.  They don't generally have a lot of formal education or training, and generally don't speak English very well.  Many of them were laborers in their home countries.  Combine that with an overabundance of low-wage, labor-intensive jobs in the U.S. (kitchen workers, housekeepers, landscapers, etc.), and you have a symbiotic relationship, like the relationship between sharks and remoras.  Then some shark comes along and doesn't know what a remora is, and says, "get this leech off of me!" 





			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> I also wonder how "undocumented immigrants" get round US tax law. On your 1040 you have to quote your Social Security Number.
> If you are undocumented, how do you legally get a Social Security Number?


 They pay taxes.  You don't have to have a Social Security number to pay taxes: if you don't have an SSN, the IRS gives you a special Taxpayer ID number (EIN) so that you can file your taxes.

Most illegal immigrants whose employers report their pay to the government are very keen on paying their taxes -- they don't want that to be the reason that they get deported.

In fact, most illegal immigrants are honest, lawabiding citizens who are respectful of society and the government.  They just have no way to support their families in their home country, and they believe that jobs and money are plentiful in the U.S., ergo....

And while most illegal immigrants are Mexican, don't overgeneralize by equating one with another.  As Tony pointed out, there are many people from all over the world who have "overstayed" their visas or are working when they don't have permission, etc.


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## Brioche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> In fact, most* illegal* immigrants are honest, *law-abiding* citizens who are respectful of society and the government. They just have no way to support their families in their home country, and they believe that jobs and money are plentiful in the U.S., ergo....


 
Seems to me there is a little non-sequitur there! 

If the US wants and needs extra labour, why can't there be a proper, legal system of visas?

If the non-documented don't have social security numbers, then they are being ripped-off. How are they going to get retirement benefits in the years to come? What happens to the SS tax that the employee and employer are supposed to pay?

I dare say that many of them are not being paid the correct rates for the work they do. Or subject to other forms of abuse, for fear of being deported.

A proper system of work permits would be much fairer and fix a lot of problems.


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## Residente Calle 13

Brioche said:
			
		

> If the non-documented don't have social security numbers, then they are being ripped-off. How are they going to get retirement benefits in the years to come? What happens to the SS tax that the employee and employer are supposed to pay?



That's our best kept secret in the US. Nobody really knows how *anybody *is going to get retirement benefits in the years to come. By the way, the retirement benefits here are...not all that much money...so how are people supposed to survive on that is another question.




			
				Brioche said:
			
		

> I dare say that many of them are not being paid the correct rates for the work they do. Or subject to other forms of abuse, for fear of being deported.
> 
> A proper system of work permits would be much fairer and fix a lot of problems.



I think that a proper system of work permits would mean employers would have to more be fair and that's why there isn't one.


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## asm

It is good to play this role; we can make arguments stronger and at the same time we can see important deficiencies.
I will post in Spanish to save half of my disposable time.


			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> _:: putting on devil's advocate hat ::_
> 
> 
> So, this proposal seeks to address the issue of illegal immigration? But, legal immigrants and those with termporary visas are not "touched"?
> 
> *Why are people against stopping illegal immigration? *Afterall, they are here ILLEGALLY.
> Es fácil pasar de la legalidad a la ilegalidad y visceversa; es la gente y las leyes quienes definen dicho estatus. Poseer esclavos hace años en los EUA era legal, al mismo tiempo el voto de de la población negra era ilegal. ¿Quién define la legalidad? Si estas personas que tienen trabajo y aportan a la economia del pais fueran aceptados legalmente, el problema seria muy diferente. Quizás sería más difícil entrar, pero el estatus cambiaria. La mayoria de la población blanca de este país vino a los Estados Unidos (o sus antepasados) por las mismas razones que ahora tienen los "ilegales". Si fueramos "parejos" y congruentes con la historia de este país, los immigrantes que puedan conseguir trabajos dignos y legales deberían obtener los permisos para trabajar.
> Es fácil olvidar la historia.
> Parafraseando "el que esté libre de ilegalidad que arroje la primera ley (y la primera piedra)".
> 
> 
> There are thousands of people who want to live in the United States, and in order to do so, they do through the process and the paperwork of becoming a citizen.
> 
> Estoy de acuerdo con la perspectiva, yo hice mi fila por varios años para venir, y las cosas no fueron fáciles en mucho tiempo. Hubo un momento en que las leyes migratorias nos pusieron en una situación difícil. Sin embargo no creo que todos los que hacen la fila desde sus paises quieran hacer el trabajo de quienes viene cruzando la frontera sin avisar a las autoridades.
> 
> Why shouldn't Mexicans have to do the same thing?
> Lo que estos mexicanos quieren es que se haga lo mismo que con los antepasados de los americanos que se quejan. Si quisieramos ser "justos"y que todos tuvieran las mismas oportunidades, entonces las puertas de la migración deberían estar abiertas y no cerradas.
> 
> Why should they be allowed to come to the United States, reap the benefits of this country,
> NO creo que ellos destrocen los "beneficios", la mayoria paga impuestos de una u otra forma. La mayoria de los "beneficios" que obtienen provienen de los programas de ayuda solidaria y no del gobierno. En cuanto a la escuela, si ese es uno de los problemas, no perdamos de vista que la educacion se paga con impuestos de la propiedad. Los imigrantes que poseen propiedades pagan dichos impuestos, lo que no pagan el impuesto pagan renta a los dueños, que a su vez pagan los impuestos (o al menos deberian hacerlo). Yo no pago el impuesto porque no poseo casa, pero mi "landlord" si lo hace, con el dinero que YO pago.
> 
> and send the money back to their countries without due process?
> 
> Si enviar dinero de un pais a otro despues de ganarlo por el trabajo o la inversion fuera delito, habria que denunciar a Walmart, Ford, GM, P&G, Exxon, McDonalds, .... La economia de los EUA se basa en parte por las ganancias recibidas en otros paises. La derrama economica de las empresas americanas en Mexico es mucho mayor que los mexicanos envian a Mexico. Para quienes dicen que los immigrantes se roban los trabajos, habria que preguntarse quien gobierna (manda) en el mercado laboral. Generalmente son los empleadores quienes administran esta variable, asi que si hay que echar culpas no deberiamos buscar al empleado sino a quien ofrece el trabajo. Mucho más trabajos se han perdido por llevarselos a Asia (China e India) que los que aqui se encuentran "secuestrados" por los ilegales.
> 
> 
> Do they pay taxes? Sí, si pagan impuestos
> 
> Do they contribute to the community? Por supesto que sí.
> In what ways? Hacen los trabajos que pocos americanos quieren hacer, con mucho mas eficiencia. Lamentablemente la mayoria está para hacer trabajos poco calificados.
> 
> When does the United States stop letting people in? When is enough people too many?
> Cuando la demanda de trabajo esté satisfecha, al menos.
> 
> Why should Mexicans be treated differently? Los mexicanos no quieren ser diferentes, por el contrario, quieren los mismos derechos y obligaciones que tuvieron la mayoria de los que llegaron aqui hace un siglo desde Europa. No asi como los que llegaron de Africa hace tres siglos.
> 
> Algunos americanos critican al immigrante mexicano porque no quiere venir a echar raices, solo ganar dinero y regresar a su pais. Sin embargo esas personas no se dan cuenta de que parte del problema es la bienvenida que se les da. Si no se les deja entrar por la puerta grande, se les dan pocas oportunidades para quedarse bien, y se les discrimina, el migrante no va a querer integrarse. Si se les tendiera la mano de forma diferente el resultado tambien seria diferente. Los criticos ya olvidaron (o nunca supieron) que sus antepasados también pasaron por lo mismo. Muchas comunidades de europeos llegaron y se aislaron, los adultos mayores no asimilaron el idioma y formaron comunidades cerradas para proteger su identidad nacional; y eso que todos eran "blancos" y cristianos.
> 
> Sin embaro, creo que tambien hay que reflexionar en muchas actitudes y comportamientos que no ayudan mucho. El aprendizaje del idioma, al menos para sobrevivir, es un imperativo. La adaptación podria ser más suave si se preparan más para ello. Pueden ayudar más a sus hijos a tener éxito académico ya que para su familia la educación puede ser el factor que haga la diferencia en el futuro.
> 
> Como muchos dicen, el problema es multifacético y tiene muchos pros y contras
> 
> _:: scurries away with tail between legs ::_


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## Yuribear

Yesterday afternoon was a glorious day in San Diego. According to Police reports we were 50,000 people, according to the organizers... over 50,000, and obviously according to some news (not local) we were 20,000. It has been the biggest march ever recorded in the history of San Diego and there were NO incidents.

Most of the demonstrators were Mexican, but many others from all over Latin America. Small groups of Asian, Africans and Europeans. It was very very moving to be a part of this. It must be said also that many of the demonstrators are American voters, who know from first hand experience what it is like to be oppressed and live in fear, of having the "migra" constantly behind your back (separating families), of being cheated by a system that wants your labour but treats you like a slave. 

It was good to see many "white" Americans joining in or supporting the march. Many old people on the side had signs saying "thank you for your work!". Probably some that touched me the most were the handicapped people who came on their wheel chairs and cheered the crowd (people who are obviously being cared by immigrants). Some were marching too!!! Others brought their drums or instruments and played the whole 6 hours we were out there. 

Very few knew each other but we were all brothers, we all felt for each other's need and we were all there to take a stand against that ridiculous HR 4437!

There were 2 things at the very end of the march that I liked very much. We were a big big crowd (not as the one in Dallas... but big any way) and one 3 year old girl got lost. The mother went crying to where the speakers were and asked for silence so that she could call her little girl. She asked everybody to look around. There was *total silence*! we were all looking.... and There she was!!! in less than 5 minutes that little girl was reunited with her mother. The crowd cheered!!!! ... and finally, there were cops all over the place, obviously... and then a group of 5 or 6 walked infront of us... they looked big and tough... one of them was a latino... and while the crowd was cheering "si se puede".... I could see his lips moving too. 

Anyway... this is just the beginning. More marches will be coming... and a National strike. It is a good thing to fight for justice I dare say!


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## Residente Calle 13

Alot of people say that those immigrants "broke the law" and "are illegal" or came here illegally as if this means they killed somebody. They're "lawbreakers". Well, not really. Not in the sense that a murderer is a "law breaker."

My dad came here legally. He had a visa. It expired and he stayed a couple of years (about 10) longer than he was supposed to. Then he married my mom, got his green card and moved on with his life. Did he pay a fine? Go to jail? Do community service? Go to rehab? Does he have a record? No, no, no and no. Uncle Sam got no beef with him for that.

He didn't have a status and now he has one, end of story. This happens so much it's not even funny. People don't go to jail for being here illegally. It's not at all like burglary. If you're here illegally and you get caught you might get sent back but that's abou it. It's not like stealing a car, or stabbing someone in the neck. If it is, it's the only crime don't ever get punished for even when the law acknowledges that you've commited one. The government knew what my dad did. It's no secret.

In any case, the law allows for leeway even for people who don't follow it to the letter. If you're late on your taxes, they don't chop your head off immediately. You can work something out with the IRS. And not every convinction involves hard time in the slammer.

Let's not fly off the handle. Entering the US illegally is not a "crime" in that sense.


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## Alunarada

don't prisioners in us work for private companies? and don't such as companies pay very cheap to the us goverment for the prisioners' work? (and i believe prisioners don't receive any kind of wage, let me know if i'm wrong)

i take this into account because maybe the us goverment or the "brainy" who proposed this stupid and anti-human right proposal, *wants the illegal immigrants to work for free....* (why not to treat them as slavers? they're almost it. )
besides we'll have them under control (who knows...)

but not only that, let's punish them by snatching their kids (because we have the excuse that their parents commited a felony) so maybe in the future foreigners attempting to cross the border will think twice before "just" doing it.
(let's frighten them with that, let's try if it works...)

we all know that the usa needs those immigrants, they work... maybe is it because there are jobs? so i think there is more an intention to control people than to keep them out behind that whole shit.


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## TRG

Alunarada said:
			
		

> don't prisioners in us work for private companies? and don't such as companies pay very cheap to the us goverment for the prisioners' work? (and i believe prisioners don't receive any kind of wage, let me know if i'm wrong)
> 
> i take this into account because maybe the us goverment or the "brainy" who proposed this stupid and anti-human right proposal, *wants the illegal immigrants to work for free....* (why not to treat them as slavers? they're almost it. )
> besides we'll have them under control (who knows...)
> 
> Alundarada-
> People in the US who are incarcerated for ciminal acts (prisoners) do not work for private companies- period. I can't imagine where such an idea could have come from.
> 
> Today was a great day to be an American. Thousands more took to the streets to emphasize their desire to live and work here. I'm glad I live in a country that people want to come to. I respect the people who come here, at their own risk, to try to make a better life. I think most do. We need improvements in the way we deal with immigration. I must confess I don't have the answer, but I'm not optimistic that our politicians will find the right way. In general, I agree with the presidents approach.
> 
> trg


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## Residente Calle 13

TRG said:
			
		

> Today was a great day to be an American. Thousands more took to the streets to emphasize their desire to live and work here. I'm glad I live in a country that people want to come to. I respect the people who come here, at their own risk, to try to make a better life. I think most do. We need improvements in the way we deal with immigration. I must confess I don't have the answer, but I'm not optimistic that our politicians will find the right way. In general, I agree with the presidents approach.



I think so too. I liked the original Bush plan before 9/11 completely changed his focus. It's one of the things that Hispanics in general have always like about him. Many Hispanics around here are pretty much loyal democrats but a Texan president, and one who appeared to not always tow the party line, gave us hope that there would finally be a President in this country who understood this issue.


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## Brioche

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Let's not fly off the handle. Entering the US illegally is not a "crime" in that sense.


 
However, a stoke of the legislative pen, and it can become a crime.

In 2002 the British parliament passed the _Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act_, which created the crime of "unlawful presence in the United Kingdom" (section 11).

In the US, Executive Orders allow the President to bypass the Congress and the Courts.
Back in 1942, Roosevelt rounded up and imprisoned American citizens and even veterans of World War I for the crime of having Japanese ancestry.


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## Residente Calle 13

Brioche said:
			
		

> However, a stoke of the legislative pen, and it can become a crime.



You are absolutely right. Two things to remember, however:

1) I don't think you can prosecute 11 million people who entered the country illegally yesterday with a law you passed today. That would not stand in court. There is a grand-father clause--if posting on forums were made illegal tommorow in the US, I could not be prosecuted for this post--so I don't see the point, if they are really going to build a wall that's going to keep _*the aliens *_out, to make a law with which they can prosecute the future violators of the law who are going to be so few and far between because of the _*magic wall*_.

2) A stroke of the pen can go the other way and make millions of people who were here illegally, here legally.


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## Alunarada

i was trying to look for a an answer to that stupid plan, law, proposal, or whatever it is but of course stupid.

and that the us goverment is paid by private companies for the prisioners work is real.

i'm very glad of watching on television people against it.


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## Brioche

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> You are absolutely right. Two things to remember, however:
> 
> 1) I don't think you can prosecute 11 million people who entered the country illegally yesterday with a law you passed today. That would not stand in court. There is a grand-father clause--if posting on forums were made illegal tommorow in the US, I could not be prosecuted for this post--


 
You are lucky. 
The American Constitution specifically forbids retrospective laws.
Section 9 "_No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed_.

In Britain and Australia it's possible to have back-dated laws. One example in Australia is the _Taxation (Unpaid Company Tax) Assessment Act *1982*_which retrospectively changed the law from *1972*.


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## Yuribear

Hi, You might all want to read this interesting article about the immigration problem.


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## maxiogee

Not one mention in there of "deport" or any of its derivatives.

The copyright regulation means that I cannot quote more than these lines from *Woody Guthrie's* _Deportees_…

_Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards? 
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit? 
To die like the dry leaves and rot on my topsoil
And be known by no name except "deportee."_


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## MarcB

I agree with nearly everyone immigration is a tough issue. Mexico wants to keep illegal Central Americans out, Japan and Korea want to keep illegal Middle Easterners South Asian and Pacific Islanders out, Europe wants to keep African, Asian, Middle Easterners and Latin Americans out and sometimes Eastern Europeans. The Dominican Republic wants to keep illegal Haitians out, and so on. So it is a universal problem.
Sometimes race enters into it but not always. Not all illegals are poorly educated nor do they all lack a working knowledge of the local language.
Also illegals exist because people want to live whether permanently or temporarily in those countries. For economic, political or lifestyle reasons. Also labor is not distributed where it is needed. That said we are a society of laws. Some may argue that anarchy is better. WE (all countries) need a reasonable guest worker program. One that grants work permits so that people can live legally in a given country with dignity and so that no criminals can enter. With undocumented people they have an illegal status regardless of how serious a crime it is considered. No one has mentioned the fact that people die trying to enter a country illegally. I for one would like this consequence to disappear. Illegals are not always under paid many are employed because they have special skills or because in countries like the US without socialized health care it is sometimes cheaper to pay a higher salary but not offer health care which is often more costly. The solution is never easy and there will be people who benefit and those who do not, just as there are now. I do believe that a just guest worker program will discourage illegal immigration if only legal immigrants find jobs, so enforcement is necessary and the quality of life will be better for those seeking work in host countries. Many of these extremist ideas come from people’s frustration with the lack of control. The terms of a guest worker program will probably vary from country to country, this will also grant rights to people who are now in a precarious situation, but I see it as the only reasonable solution to the current shift in human populations


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