# I can neither = I can't



## a cooperator

Hi,
In these examples does  "can neither = can't "?
I -  I can neither confirm nor deny your grammatical explanation.
2 - No, you can say neither. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know."


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## Jeanz

I am not quite sure what you are asking, but if you are asking if the words "neither", "nor" and "not" all make negative statements, then yes.

(That does not mean, however, that the contraction "can't" may be used to represent the phrase "can neither". It may only be used to represent "cannot".)


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## Cagey

"_Can neither ... nor_" may be approximately equivalent to "_can't either ... or_."


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## a cooperator

Can I say "I can eat neither all this food." =" I can't eat all his food"?


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## JulianStuart

No!  Neither is _not_ a substitute for not.  It is usually paired with nor.  "Neither A nor B".   That means "not A and not B".


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## Beryl from Northallerton

a cooperator said:


> Can I say "I can eat neither all this food." =" I can't eat all his food"?



No, you can't, 'neither' is (usually) used as part of a construction in combination with 'nor'.

e.g. "I can neither X nor Y" = "I can't X and I can't Y"


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## Cagey

No, you can't say that ~ or, at least you shouldn't. 

"Neither" is a conjunction that joins two things.  It usually means something like "and not" (which  is not to say that the two are interchangeable).  You can say:
_I can neither eat all this food nor take it home with me. _
Or.
_You can't eat all this food.  Neither can I.  _

*Added*: Cross-posted with Beryl.


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> No! Neither is _not_ a substitute for not. It is always paired with nor. "Neither A nor B". That means "not A and not B".


But why does PualQ say here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2240928   "No, you can say neither. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know." ?


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## JulianStuart

a cooperator said:


> But why does PualQ say here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2240928   "No, you can say neither. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know." ?


I edited my post - it is not always paired with nor, that's true only when talking about both things in the _same sentence_. My apologies.
Paul's use means "You can say neither A nor B" i.e., "you cannot say A and you cannot say B"


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## Beryl from Northallerton

a cooperator said:


> But why does PualQ say here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2240928   "No, you can say neither. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know." ?



It means that you can't say A and you can't say B.


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## a cooperator

Beryl from Northallerton said:


> It means that you can't say A and you can't say B.


But it should have supposed to say: No, you can  neither say. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know."


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## Jeanz

Perhaps that would have been more clear for you if he had said "No, you can say neither of those."


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## Beryl from Northallerton

a cooperator said:


> But it should have supposed to say: No, you can  neither say. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know."



In post #2 (of another thread) Paul wrote0.*"*No, you can say neither. Say this, "There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know." 				*"*

Here's what he meant: 

P1.*"*No, you cannot say either of the options ( A or B ) that were presented in post #1. Say this instead (C) *"*

P2.*"*No, you can say neither of the options ( A or B ) that were presented in post #1. Say this instead (C) *"*

P3.*"*No, you cannot say option A and you cannot say option B, (both of which were presented in post #1. Say this instead (C) *"*

where, P1 = P2 = P3
and,
Option A = *"There are many words, the meanings of most of which, I do not know."*
Option B = *"There are many words the meanings of which I do not know."
*Option C = *"There are many words, the meaning of most of which, I do not know."  				*-_ Paul's option_.


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> I edited my post - it is not always paired with nor, that's true only when talking about both things in the _same sentence_. My apologies.
> Paul's use means "You can say neither A nor B" i.e., "you cannot say A and you cannot say B"


Thank you so much, but is the "neither" in the last examlpe adverb or determiner?


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## JulianStuart

I am not a grammar technician but I would say that (A not B) were omitted as an ellipsis (because they are understood) and that _neither_ in this case is simply the object of "say" and is a pronoun (maybe also a determiner in the case where ellipsis did not occur).  Experts may be along shortly to help with this level of detail...



> neither /ˈnʌɪðə, ˈniː-/﻿
> ▶determiner & pronoun
> not the one nor the other of two people or things; not either.


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> I am not a grammar technician but I would say that (A not B) were omitted as an ellipsis (because they are understood) and that _neither_ in this case is simply the object of "say" and is a pronoun (maybe also a determiner in the case where ellipsis did not occur). Experts may be along shortly to help with this level of detail...


Does always"noun" follow the determiner? for example, neither of the days are/is suitable."


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## Cagey

Yes, a noun or pronoun follows a determiner.  When there is no noun, 'neither' is taking the place of the noun, and we call it a 'pronoun'.  (I believe that I am saying what JulianStuart says, but using different words.) 


_Neither day is suitable_:_ neither_ is a determiner. 
_Neither is suitable_: _neither_ is a pronoun.
_Neither of the days is suitable_: _neither _is a pronoun here as well. ​


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## a cooperator

Cagey said:


> Yes, a noun or pronoun follows a determiner. When there is no noun, 'neither' is taking the place of the noun, and we call it a 'pronoun'. (I believe that I am saying what JulianStuart says, but using different words.)
> _Neither day is suitable_:_ neither_ is a determiner.
> _Neither is suitable_: _neither_ is a pronoun.
> _Neither of the days is suitable_: _neither _is a pronoun here as well. ​



Thank you very so much Cagey, but why is a " neither" in the first example "a determiner"  and in the third a pronoun?


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## JulianStuart

a cooperator said:


> Thank you very so much Cagey, but why is a " neither" in the first example "a determiner"  and in the third a pronoun?


In the first "Neither" is "qualifying" or "determining" the word "day" which follows it.  _Day_ is the subject of the verb.
In the third, "Neither" is the subject of the verb and is therefore a pronoun (and we can describe "of the days" as an adjectival phrase describing it).  How we use words in particular structures affects what role they play (or is it vice versa  ? )


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> In the first "Neither" is "qualifying" or "determining" the word "day" which follows it. _Day_ is the subject of the verb.
> In the third, "Neither" is the subject of the verb and is therefore a pronoun (and we can describe "of the days" as an adjectival phrase describing it). How we use words in particular structures affects what role they play (or is it vice versa  ? )


Thank you so much, then if I say "Which place is neither of men going to?". "Neither" here is the subject of the verb and is therefore a pronoun, isn't it?
Can I say "Which place is neither men going to?". 

I am much obliged your help.


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## Glenfarclas

"Neither" is grammatically singular, so one could only say "Which place is neither man (_or_ neither of the men) going to."


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## a cooperator

Glenfarclas said:


> "Neither" is grammatically singular, so one could only say "Which place is neither man (_or_ neither of the men) going to."


Yes, But does "Which place is neither man going to="Which place isn't man going to"?


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## Glenfarclas

a cooperator said:


> Yes, But does "Which place is neither man going to="Which place isn't man going to"?



Your sentence is not correct, so I can't answer that.  But "Which place is neither man going to" means this:  There are two men, and several places.  The men are each going to one or more places.  Some places may be visited by both men; some by only one man or the other; but there is one place to which neither of the men is going.  Which place is it?


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## a cooperator

Hi,
Is what *Glenfarclas* has said in the post #23 correct? I don't think so because in this sentence { "Which place is neither man going to"} "man" is singular. How he did say "There are two men"?


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## JulianStuart

a cooperator said:


> Hi,
> Is what *Glenfarclas* has said in the post #23 correct? I don't think so because in this sentence { "Which place is neither man going to"} "man" is singular. How he did say "There are two men"?



Yes, it is entirely correct.  It is clearer than I might have written to explain the same sense - the only situation in which your sentence can be valid.  Did you understand it?
Whenever you use the word "neither", it is *logically required* that there be two of whatever is being referred to.  Then "neither X" means "not one and not the other of the two Xs".  You cannot use "neither X" without there being two Xs under discussion.


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## PaulQ

Imagine there are 2 men: Abdul and Mohammed. 
Abdul is going to Cairo
Mohammed is going to Amman

Q: "Which one is going to Nairobi?"
A: "Neither man is going to Nairobi." or "Neither of the men are going to Nairobi."

Q: "Which place is neither man going to?" or "Which place are neither of the men going to?"
A: "Jeddah."

Simple!


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## a cooperator

PaulQ said:


> Imagine there are 2 men: Abdul and Mohammed.
> Abdul is going to Cairo
> Mohammed is going to Amman
> 
> Q: "Which one is going to Nairobi?"
> A: "Neither man is going to Nairobi." or "Neither of the men are going to Nairobi."
> 
> Q: "Which place is neither man going to?" or "Which place are neither of the men going to?"
> A: "Jeddah."
> 
> Simple!


Then I conclude from your discussion that ""Which place is neither of the men going to?" is incorrect, isn't it?


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## Cagey

I don't see any grammatical problem in:
_"To which place is neither of the men going?"_
So I don't see any problem in:
_"Which place is neither of the men going to?"_
_
Which place_ is singular, and takes a singular verb. 
If you were referring to more than one place, Europe and Asia for instance, you would use '_Which places_', the plural, and use a plural verb: _
"Which places are neither of the men going to?"_

(Though grammatical, I find your version of the question awkward.  I would probably ask something like: 
_Where are the men not going?_
_Where aren't the men going?_
Without more context, the question itself is strange.)


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## a cooperator

Cagey said:


> I don't see any grammatical problem in:
> _"To which place is neither of the men going?"_
> So I don't see any problem in:
> _"Which place is neither of the men going to?"_
> _
> Which place_ is singular, and takes a singular verb.
> If you were referring to more than one place, Europe and Asia for instance, you would use '_Which places_', the plural, and use a plural verb: _
> "Which places are neither of the men going to?"_
> 
> (Though grammatical, I find your version of the question awkward. I would probably ask something like:
> _Where are the men not going?_
> _Where aren't the men going?_
> Without more context, the question itself is strange.)


But why has PaulQ said ""Which place are neither of the men going to?"?


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## JulianStuart

Because some people use singular and some people use plural for neither.  It is not a "rule" that everyone is taught the same way.  You will get used to English and its lack of "rules" 
See my sig


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> Because some people use singular and some people use plural for neither. It is not a "rule" that everyone is taught the same way. You will get used to English and its lack of "rules"
> See my sig


but How can I know if verb "are/is" refers to "the place or  men" in my example " Which place is/are neither of the men going to?"?


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## a cooperator

JulianStuart said:


> Because some people use singular and some people use plural for neither. It is not a "rule" that everyone is taught the same way. You will get used to English and its lack of "rules"
> See my sig


but How can I know if verb "are/is" refers to "the place or  men" in my example " Which place is/are neither of the men going to?"?


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## PaulQ

a cooperator said:


> but How can I know if verb "are/is" refers to "the place or  men" in my example " Which place is/are neither of the men going to?"?


1. You know because it is a question. 
2. In a question, the *subject *comes *after *the *verb*. 
3. So you know the subject is "neither of the men"

e.g. Which footballs *is he* buying?" or "What sort of bananas *are they*?


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## JulianStuart

a cooperator said:


> but How can I know if verb "are/is" refers to "the place or  men" in my example " Which place is/are neither of the men going to?"?


 Which place is the man going to? 
Which place are the men going to?
The *man is* going to the town. 
The *men are* going to the town.
Which *man is* going to the town? 
Which *men are* going to the town?
The tall *man is* going to the town. 
The* farmers are* going to the town.


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## a cooperator

PaulQ said:


> 1. You know because it is a question.
> 2. In a question, the *subject *comes *after *the *verb*.
> 3. So you know the subject is "neither of the men"
> 
> e.g. Which footballs *is he* buying?" or "What sort of bananas *are they*?


Thank you so much, but PaulQ please have a look at *Cagey*'s reply in the post # 29, especially when he said "_"Which place is neither of the men going to?"
Which place_ is singular, and takes a singular verb. " he did considerd that the subject is "_neither of the men _", which comes *after *the *verbever as you said.*


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## Cagey

a cooperator said:


> Thank you so much, but PaulQ please have a look at *Cagey*'s reply in the post # 29, especially when he said "_"Which place is neither of the men going to?"
> Which place_ is singular, and takes a singular verb. " he did considerd that the subject is "_neither of the men _", which comes *after *the *verbever as you said.*


I'm sorry, a cooperator.  I made a mistake. You should pay attention to PaulQ's rule. It works. 

I apologize for the confusion.


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## a cooperator

PaulQ said:


> Imagine there are 2 men: Abdul and Mohammed.
> Abdul is going to Cairo
> Mohammed is going to Amman
> 
> Q: "Which one is going to Nairobi?"
> A: "Neither man is going to Nairobi." or "Neither of the men are going to Nairobi."
> 
> Q: "Which place is neither man going to?" or "Which place are neither of the men going to?"
> A: "Jeddah."
> 
> Simple!


Since that "Which place are neither of the men going to?"="_Where aren't the men going to?" Can I say "Which place aren't both of the men going to?" _


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## PaulQ

Yes, you can say that.



(but when you would ever want to say it is a different matter )


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## a cooperator

PaulQ said:


> Yes, you can say that.
> 
> 
> 
> (but when you would ever want to say it is a different matter )


Can the verb after "neither of " come plural or singular ?For example,Neither of the days is suitable(formal). neither of the days are suitable.(informal ).And why?


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## Glenfarclas

a cooperator said:


> Since that "Which place are neither of the men going to?"="_Where aren't the men going to?" Can I say "Which place aren't both of the men going to?" _



The meaning is different, however.  "Which place is neither of the men going to" must get an answer about a place to which zero men are going.  "Which place aren't both of the men going to" may get an answer about a place to which _one_ of the men is going, since if only one is going then _both men_ are not going.


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## JulianStuart

a cooperator said:


> Can the verb after "neither of " come plural or singular ?For example,Neither of the days is suitable(formal). neither of the days are suitable.(informal ).And why?


 Please see post #30 above - already asked and answered.


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## Hermione Golightly

It isn't a question of 'formal' or 'informal'. If I am speaking or writing casually to friends or writing a formal talk or letter, I still use the singular because that's my personal choice. The singular verb is the classically correct form because_ neither_ refers to_ (not) one_ and _(not) the other_. Used in a phrase like _"Neither _wants to visit Stratford", it's the same as saying_ "Nobody _wants to go to Stratford" or "_Not one and not the other _wants to visit Stratford" or_ Neither man_ wants to visit Stratford.

I cannot imagine anybody accepting a plural verb in_ Nobody want to go to out tonight/Neither are going out/ Neither child have been good today/ Neither man are going to Stratford._ The problem arises when the _Neithe_r is part of a phrase with _of_ - Neither of the men ...... Neither of these hats..... Neither of the children...... . We are so used to the subject coming before the verb that when we hear what seems to be a plural subject we automatically use the plural verb.  In fact the verb subject remains the singular 'neither'-_ Neither of these hats suits me/ Neither of the children was good today/ Neither of the men wants to visit Stratford._
 I expect that some people here are perfectly happy with using the plural verb with the Neither of the (plural noun) phrase. It's certainly very common in everyday speech. The learner has to decide if being correct matters or not. If the learner is studying for exams it probably still does matter. I wrote probably because it's 15 years since I taught TEFL exams. In those days it was a well known 'catch' question.
Of course at school we weren't taught English grammar since we all spoke fluently and eventually wrote without any mistakes.(This was a private school with selected intake and the highest of standards, fifty years ago). In everything we wrote for whatever subject, grammar and spelling mistakes were indicated and we had to write the corrections. In English lessons (which as I say didn't include grammar exercises), our teacher would present a round- up of mistakes of all sorts and explain why.


It's a pity your example sentence was so complicated.

Hermione


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