# All Slavic languages: position of se



## jazyk

Czech has a somewhat rigid way to place the reflexive pronoun _se_ in a sentence. It should follow the verb if the verb is the first word of a clause (Jmenuju/Jmenuji se Jazyk - My name is Jazyk) but go before the verb if the sentence contains a subject (Já se jmenuju/jmenuji Jazyk, with a já for emphasis) (by the way, you can also look at it as _se _taking the second position in both cases). With two verbs, _se_ is placed between them if the verb initiates a sentence (Chci se dívat na televizi - I want to watch TV) but before them if a subject or subordinate conjunction is used (Mama řekla, že se můžu/mohu dívat na televizi - Mom said that I can watch TV). I've noticed that Polish is much more flexible (Ona się nazywa Anna/Ona nazywa się Anna - Her name is Anna). What does it look like in other Slavic languages that use the pronoun _se _or something similar to it? If two or more positions are possible, which is the commonest/the normatively most correct/the stylistically best?

Thank you for your replies.


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## skye

Ona se imenuje Ana. Imenuje se Ana. (likewise in Slovene)

Moram se učiti. Mama je rekla, da se moram učiti. (likewise again)


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## papillon

Interesting thread, *Jazyk.

*Russian appears to differ from other Slavic languages in that none of the examples you gave would use a reflexive verb. So I'l have to give new example. Note that Russian has to forms of pronoun "se", the "normal" pronoun себя and the reflexive particle -ся or -сь. The latter case is easy: -ся (or -сь) is always placed at the end of a verb: поднимать*ся*, умывали*сь*. The rule for the pronoun себя are more flexible, but typically place it between the subject and the verb.


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## echo chamber

In *Macedonian *you wouldn`t use a reflexive pronoun in the examples you`ve listed above as well. 
The reflexive pronoun in the macedonian *always* stands before the verb, no matter whether the sentence contains an adverb, a modal, etc.

Examples:
(Таа) *се* вика Ана (Taa *se* vika Ana) - Her name is Ana
Морам да *се* бањам (Moram da *se* banjam) - I have to take a bath/wash myself

Not always the reflexive pronoun *se* is translated _myself_ in English. 
Ex.
*Се* мијам (*Se* mijam) - I wash myself, _but_: (Јас) *се* обидувам (Jas *se* obiduvam) - I try/am trying (there is no progressive tense in Macedonian)


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## dudasd

Serbian/Croatian: in its enclitic form, *se *is used more or less the same way as in Czech. (Between the subject and the verb, or after the verb when the subject is omitted. Being an enclitic, it can never stand alone on the begining on the sentence, or after an dependent/inserted sentence.) In its full form *sebe *it's very independent and can stand almost everywhere. Seems that it has more "freedom" in those Slavic languages where it became a separate particle. 

Examples:
Ja se ne štedim kad je posao posredi.
Ne štedim se ja kad je posao posredi.
Ne štedim se kad je posao posredi.
Sebe ne štedim kad je posao posredi.

The meaning of all the sentences is: "I don't spare myself when it's concerning job."

A note: there is also a group of "non-genuine" reflexive verbs, where the full form *sebe *can't be used (or sometimes can, but then it gives another meaning):

only *bojim se* (I am afraid, I am scared)
or this example:
*brinem se *(I am worried)
*brinem sebe* (I am worried about myself)

but anyway the same rules are applied, concerning the position of *se/sebe*.


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## Irbis

More for Slovenian:

Jaz sem se učil. (I learned.)
On se je učil. (He learned.)
Jaz se bom učil. (I will learn.)
Jaz se učim. (I'm learning.)
Učim se. (I'm learning.)

Clitic order is very fixed in Slovenian. The order is (from Peter Herrity's Slovene, A Comprehensive Grammar):

1. (a) Present tense forms of the verb biti 'to be' (with the exception of je),when used as perfect tense auxiliares
(b) The conditional particle bi

2. The reflexive pronouns se, si

3. The dative clitic forms of the personal pronouns

4. The accusative clitic forms of the personal pronouns

5. The genitive clitic forms of the personal pronouns

6. (a) The third person singular of the verb biti 'to be' used as a perfect tense auxiliary, i.e. je
(b) The future tense forms of the verb biti 'to be' used as future tense auxiliary

So the following sentences are impossible in Slovenian:
Jaz se sem učil.
On je se učil.
Jaz bom se učil.


Se učim.
is possible, but it is very emphasised, I would translate it as "I do learn."


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## Blacklack

In standard Ukrainian the reflexive particle _-ся_ (-сь also exists but afaik is considered a bit informal) is used exactly like in Russian. However in Western Ukrainian _ся_ can be separated from verb and placed more or less freely like in Polish.
An example:
Мені це подобається ("I like it" — standard)
Мені то ся подобає (Western)


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## slavian1

Apart from "*się/siebie"* in Polish there is also another form *sobie *which is used alike reflexive verbs. 
For example: Myślę *sobie*, że muszę wracać.
I think (to me), I have to go back.

It's a little strange, because *myśleć *is not a reflexive verb. So one cannot say *myślę się/siebie. *Generally this construction is used when we want to say that something is done for sake of speaker (or other person). 

It's like in German:

Ich habe *mir *ein Buch gekauft. (Kupiłem *sobie* książkę) - I have bought a book (for me).


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## Duya

According to Alt & Browne (A Handbook of Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian, p. 61), Serbo-Croatian also has a fairly rigid order, albeit slightly different than Slovenian (_se_ comes after all objects in enclitic group.)



> _There can be as many as four enclitics together. The whole enclitic group is always the second element in the sentence. Within the group there is a particular sequence for the different enclitics...
> 
> Enclitics display fixed order in a group (Browne, 1975, 105-34):
> _
> _First: li_
> _Second: Auxiliary verbs and present of 'to be' (but not 3rd singular je):_
> _Third: Dative pronouns: (mi, ti, mu, joj, nam, vam, im)_
> _Fourth: Accusative/genitive pronouns (me, te, ga, je, nas, vas, ih) _
> _Fifth: se, reflexive pronoun and particle_
> _Sixth: je, third person singular auxiliary and present of 'to be'_


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## werrr

jazyk said:


> Czech has a somewhat rigid way to place the reflexive pronoun _se_ in a sentence. It should follow the verb if the verb is the first word of a clause (Jmenuju/Jmenuji se Jazyk - My name is Jazyk) but go before the verb if the sentence contains a subject (Já se jmenuju/jmenuji Jazyk, with a já for emphasis) (by the way, you can also look at it as _se _taking the second position in both cases). With two verbs, _se_ is placed between them if the verb initiates a sentence (Chci se dívat na televizi - I want to watch TV) but before them if a subject or subordinate conjunction is used (Máma řekla, že se můžu/mohu dívat na televizi - Mom said that I can watch TV). I've noticed that Polish is much more flexible (Ona się nazywa Anna/Ona nazywa się Anna - Her name is Anna). What does it look like in other Slavic languages that use the pronoun _se _or something similar to it? If two or more positions are possible, which is the commonest/the normatively most correct/the stylistically best?
> 
> Thank you for your replies.


In Czech, the clitics occupy the second slot in the clause. For cluster of clitics, the order is as follows:

1) particle "-li"
2) auxiliary verb "být" (including the suffix "-s" and conditional forms)
3) reflexive clitics
4) dative clitics
5) accusative clitics

Rarely, there could be more clitics of the same kind, then singular precedes the plural and first person precedes the second person.

An exception are reflexives "se" and "si" along with the auxiliary "jsi (-s)", which are always contracted to "ses" and "sis" respectively.


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## candy-man

slavian1 said:


> Apart from "*się/siebie"* in Polish there is also another form *sobie *which is used alike reflexive verbs.
> For example: Myślę *sobie*, że muszę wracać.
> I think (to me), I have to go back.
> 
> It's a little strange, because *myśleć *is not a reflexive verb. So one cannot say *myślę się/siebie. *Generally this construction is used when we want to say that something is done for sake of speaker (or other person).
> 
> It's like in German:
> 
> Ich habe *mir *ein Buch gekauft. (Kupiłem *sobie* książkę) - I have bought a book (for me).


 

Mmm... I´d rather say- I bought a book* for myself. *That seems to be the correct form that you are referring to, I guess.

*Me *he* comprado *un libro*-* in Spanish

When it comes to the original question there is a great deal of reflexive verbs in Polish that do NOT exist in English.These are as follows- 
*Umyć się - lavarse(ES), Wash(EN).*

Greetings


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## lavverats

Hello to all Slavic linguists here!
Before starting I’d like to apologize for my English, but I’m just at the beginner level. Another thing  I should say is I am not a linguist but engineer. Sad, isn't it?
So, back to the topic:
In Bulgarian language the position of the reflexive particle “ce” depends on the type of sentences:

“ce” is placed after the main part of a reflexive verb in:
§ Positive declarative sentences without a subject (with so called hidden subject)
Example: Чувствам се добре.    Literally: Feel (myself) good.
§ Positive interrogative sentences,
Example: Чувствам ли се добре?    Literally: Feel “li”* (myself) good?

“ce” position is before the main part of the verb in all other cases – positive declarative sentences with clearly expressed subject, negative sentences, negative interrogative sentences, etc.
Example: Аз се чувствам добре.    Literally: I (myself) feel good.
(Аз) Не се чувствам добре.                            (I) Not (myself) feel good.
(Aз) Не се ли чувствам добре?                       (I) Not (myself) “li” feel good?
А аз добре ли се чувствам, а? Да не би да се чувствам добре, а?, etc.
*“li” is a particle for interrogative sentences.

There is another particle in Bulgarian used in the same way – “си”. For example: Уча си урока. Написах си домашното, etc. I was wondering whether  it is used in other Slavic languages.
Regards


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## Jana337

Welcome! 

Your English is amazing, and linguists are a minority here. 


> There is another particle in Bulgarian used in the same way – “си”. For example: Уча си урока. Написах си домашното, etc. I was wondering whether it is used in other Slavic languages.


In Czech yes, as werrr said above.


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## dudasd

lavverats said:


> There is another particle in Bulgarian used in the same way – “си”. For example: Уча си урока. Написах си домашното, etc. I was wondering whether it is used in other Slavic languages.
> Regards


 
It exists in Croatia in everyday language. In Serbian it's used in a couple of phrases only (but they are not polite at all, so I won't quote  ). But it's considered to be colloquial, not a literary form. (A "false" enclitic made from the full form _sebi_.)

PS What's so sad in being an engineer? Your explanation was excellent. And one question - as much as I realize as a beginner in Bulgarian, "se" can't stand at the begining of a sentence? (Or maybe it can, my Bulgarian grammar-book is very old.  )


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## echo chamber

lavverats said:


> There is another particle in Bulgarian used in the same way – “си”. For example: Уча си урока. Написах си домашното, etc. I was wondering whether  it is used in other Slavic languages.
> Regards



In macedonian too:  си го напишав домашното.


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## Athaulf

dudasd said:


> It [the pronoun _si_] exists in Croatia in everyday language. In Serbian it's used in a couple of phrases only (but they are not polite at all, so I won't quote  ).



Heh... I didn't know these phrases were common in Serbia in that exact form. 



> But it's considered to be colloquial, not a literary form. (A "false" enclitic made from the full form _sebi_.)


I think that _si_ is generally recognized as a correct form in Croatia nowadays. In spoken language, it's certainly used so widely in practice that its use has no connotations of improper speech, regardless of the occasion. To me, it still looks ugly when I see it in writing, but that's probably just a relic of my upbringing in Bosnia...


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## dudasd

Athaulf said:


> Heh... I didn't know these phrases were common in Serbia in that exact form.
> 
> I think that _si_ is generally recognized as a correct form in Croatia nowadays. In spoken language, it's certainly used so widely in practice that its use has no connotations of improper speech, regardless of the occasion. To me, it still looks ugly when I see it in writing, but that's probably just a relic of my upbringing in Bosnia...


 
Well... it's more expressive, I guess.  And thanks to _si_, we avoid rhyming ("**bi sebi..." really sounds stupid, doesn't it?)

I still can't find any of the newest Croatian grammars, maybe the attitude is changed now, but what's interesting about _si _- it was used widely decades ago, native Croats never have felt it as something "improper", though it really _was _considered as irregular by linguists. And in spite of linguists, I found _si _many times in works of some excellent Croatian writers and translators. (But linguists do have their own strange ideas sometimes...)


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## lavverats

Hi! Thanks for your hearty welcome!
To *dudasd*: 
In reference to “ce” position my answer is no. I’ve never heard such a sentence in Bulgarian. It is a “specialty” of our friends from Macedonia as you may see in echo_chamber’s posts.
As for “cи” – yes, it is used in the same phrases in Bulgarian as well ;-).

 Поздрав


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