# Al and Elf



## CyrusSH

There are huge similarities between Al and Elf, for example about Al: Al (folklore) - Wikipedia we read:



> They also destroy embryos in the womb, causing miscarriage, and can steal babies forty days after childbirth, replacing them with imps.



And about Elf: A History of Elves



> As with fairies, elves were said to secretly steal healthy human babies and replace them with their own kind.



Etymology of Elf: Online Etymology Dictionary



> elf (n.)
> "one of a race of powerful supernatural beings in Germanic folklore," Old English elf (Mercian, Kentish), ælf (Northumbrian), ylfe (plural, West Saxon) "sprite, fairy, goblin, incubus," from Proto-Germanic *albiz (source also of Old Saxon alf, Old Norse alfr, German alp "evil spirit, goblin, incubus"), origin unknown; according to Watkins, possibly from PIE *albho- "white."



But I can't find anything about _al_, however the origin of _elf_ (Proto-Germanic _*albiz_) seems to be unknown too, could they be from a PIE root with the same meaning?

This wiki article: Al Basty - Wikipedia claims _al_ (albasti) has origins in Sumerian mythology.


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## ahvalj

The Germanic _*alƀaz~alƀiz_ is indeed etymologically obscure (it is now fashionable to ascribe all such words with _a_ to the Palaeo-European substrate: the language spoken to the south of the Baltic sea before the Indo-European invasion), but the comparison of two short words in remote languages on the basis of the common element _-al-_ is not probative: it may be correct or may be not, we have no tools to evaluate such cases.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> The Germanic _*alƀaz~alƀiz_ is indeed etymologically obscure (it is now fashionable to ascribe all such words with _a_ to the Palaeo-European substrate: the language spoken to the south of the Baltic sea before the Indo-European invasion), but the comparison of two short words in remote languages on the basis of the common element _-al-_ is not probative: it may be correct or may be not, we have no tools to evaluate such cases.



Even if there is no phonetic similarity between the words _albaz_ and _albasti_, it can't be denied that these two mythical creatures share the same characteristics and in all probability they had a common origin, of course we are talking about Indo-European culture and its descendants, not two different cultures with different origins.


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## ahvalj

If elves were Indo-European, they would have left more traces in the intermediate languages, which is not observed.

The science relies on repeatable procedures: as I had written a couple of times in reply to your posts, miracles do happen, but science has no ways to deal with them. When we have the Germanic _*wiraz_ and Sanskrit _vīraḥ_ "man", we know how to treat them as they are connected in a regular and predictable manner, found in a number of words (the pretonic long vowel in Germanic, Celtic and Italic shortened after Dybo's law) and plus their cognates are attested elsewhere and also in expected forms. But when we have cases like the English _bad_ and the Modern Persian _bäd_ (بد - Wiktionary), which do not follow the expected rules, science can only proceed if there is additional information (as is in the case of this pair), otherwise such a correspondence hangs in the air.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> If elves were Indo-European, they would have left more traces in the intermediate languages, which is not observed.



What are the intermediate languages?


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## ahvalj

Those distributed between north Germany and the Middle East.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> Those distributed between north Germany and the Middle East.



What about Lezgian _Алпаб_, Russian _Албасты́_, Chuvash _Алпастă_, ...? Al Basty - Wikipedia


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## ahvalj

The same as Santa Claus - Wikipedia


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## ahvalj

Listen, seriously speaking: _Albasty_ is _Al basty,_ in two words: it is not the root _alb-_ nor the root+ending _albas_ as the Germanic etymology would require.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> these two mythical creatures share the same characteristics and in all probability they had a common origin


A problem with this sort of conclusion, especially when you use "probability", is that you don't really pay attention to the fact that probability is a mathematical concept. Elves have numerous characteristics (let's say 10), only one of which is related to childbirth. _Al_ has a few characteristic; again only one (the main one in their case) is associated with childbirth. They don't have much else (if any) in common. In other words, mathematically, they only share, for example, about 10% of characteristics. It is not helpful to only focus on that 10%, unless you have a good evidence to believe that 10% is exclusively and originally essential to both. The same problematic focus is on the spelling of _al_. Interestingly, there is another form scattered in a large geographic extent. This form starts with a fricative (h/x). It is not unlikely that the original word (if any) started with such a consonant which is lost in mainly Turkic languages. Then, the probability of _xal = albaz_ is even less, maybe even under the common 5% significance.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> The same as Santa Claus - Wikipedia



What do you mean?



ahvalj said:


> Listen, seriously speaking: _Albasty_ is _Al basty,_ in two words: it is not the root _alb-_ nor the root+ending _albas_ as the Germanic etymology would require.



It is not really clear that is _Albasty_ or _Al basty_, the author of that wiki page clearly wanted to make a relation between this word and Persian/Armenian _Al_, anyway it is a good article about _Albasta_: http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/ass/article/viewFile/45367/24573

For example about Chuvash _Alpasta_:



> In the demonological understanding by the Chuvashs the character of Alpasta (Albasta) is connected with the character of Arsuri. In the Chuvash mythology Arsuri-is the landlord of forest. Another name of Arsuri is-Varman tura (the god of forest).
> R.G. Akhmetdinov makes such conclusion: “The Chuvash Arsuri is related of the Russian-silvan. The word Arsuri is consisted of two elements: ar “a person, a man” + surri “half”-“a half of a man”, i.e. “half”. By Udmurt palesmurt “half-man”, by the Mari-Shurlocho “half-cripple”, by the Tatar Yarimtik “half” (The comparative research of the Tatar and Chuvash languages, 1978).


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## CyrusSH

According to this Persian wiki page: آل (افسانه) - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد Als were actually a tribe of Amazons (women warriors) who lived in the Caucasus, they were the same people who were known as Albanians, Arranis and Alans. Ancient Greek historians talk about Amazons who lived in this region and how they attacked pregnant women and stole their children.


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## fdb

Reference:

Eilers, Wilhelm:
*Die Al, ein persisches Kindbettgespenst.*
1979, ISBN: 9783769615005

[PU: München, Verlag der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften], 89 S., 10 Taf. 8, OBrosch. Bayerische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-Historische Klasse: Sitzungsberichte 1979, 7


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Reference:
> 
> Eilers, Wilhelm:
> *Die Al, ein persisches Kindbettgespenst.*
> 1979, ISBN: 9783769615005
> 
> [PU: München, Verlag der Bayerischen Akademie der Wissenschaften], 89 S., 10 Taf. 8, OBrosch. Bayerische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-Historische Klasse: Sitzungsberichte 1979, 7



What does it say about it?


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## ahvalj

Concerning Santa Claus, I meant that he is the late transnational mythological figure like Al Basty and as such is not valid for etymological comparisons. There should be of course some core in Al Basty, but listing all the languages where he is widespread doesn't help to elucidate it.

Could you repeat your points for this thread? If you mean that the Middle Eastern _Al _and the north Germanic / south Scandinavian _*alƀôz_ are related (by the way, elves are a class of creatures, unlike the single Al), then, as I have written, there is no linguistic data to either support or conclusively reject this comparison.

Overall, I don't remember that you have been able to demonstrate any particular affinity between Iranic and Germanic in your posts for the last years; these are two separate Indo-European branches connected no more than any others. I would also like to remind that all surviving Indo-European branches occupied a geographically marginal position three to four millennia ago and that by caprice of history all the languages between them (central European Indo-European, Cimmerian, others we don't know) went extinct, which has eliminated most of the links that had united these marginal branches.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> Concerning Santa Claus, I meant that he is the late transnational mythological figure like Al Basty and as such is not valid for etymological comparisons. There should be of course some core in Al Basty, but listing all the languages where he is widespread doesn't help to elucidate it.
> 
> Could you repeat your points for this thread? If you mean that the Middle Eastern _Al _and the north Germanic / south Scandinavian _*alƀôz_ are related (by the way, elves are a class of creatures, unlike the single Al), then, as I have written, there is no linguistic data to either support or conclusively reject this comparison.
> 
> Overall, I don't remember that you have been able to demonstrate any particular affinity between Iranic and Germanic in your posts for the last years; these are two separate Indo-European branches connected no more than any others. I would also like to remind that all surviving Indo-European branches occupied a geographically marginal position three to four millennia ago and that by caprice of history all the languages between them (central European Indo-European, Cimmerian, others we don't know) went extinct, which has eliminated most of the links that had united these marginal branches.



I am actually an expert in history and culture but not linguistics, when I ask about a word here, it doesn't mean that I want to prove that I'm right and you are wrong, in fact I just want to know linguistically it is possible or not, I've researched about Indo-European cultures more than 15 years, for numerous reasons it has become clear for me that Iranian and Germanic cultures are closer to each than other Indo-European cultures, you can't compare the similarities between Germanic primeval cow _Auðumbla_ and Iranian primeval cow Gavaevodata to Greek goat _Amalthea_ or Hindu _Kamadhenu_, or the similarities between Germanic four-eyed dog _Garmr_ and Iranian four-eyed dog _Sagdid_. You also can't compare the similarities between Germanic hero _Hildebrand_ and Iranian hero _Rostam_ to Celtic hero _Cú Chulainn_ (he also kills his unknown son but he himself is not killed by his half-brother) and Greek hero _Heracles_, or the similarities between Germanic hero _Sigurd_ and Iranian hero _Esfandiyar_ to Greek hero _Achilles_ (he was also invulnerable but dragon blood had no role)  and Hindu _Duryodhana_, ...


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## berndf

Your reasoning for cultural connection beyond the well established ones, you obviously follow the same methodology you have shown us in many threads here about linguistic connections: You accumulate superficial similarities with some far fetched tweaking to make it look more impressive than it really is and as long as the cannot be positively be demonstrated to be accidental you regard them as confirmation of your pet theory even if more obvious explanations are available. Garmr is not four eyed and Kerberos, whuch may have influenced the Garmr legend us two or three headed and not four eyed. Practically all cultures have legends about invincible heroes and many with a weak spot, like Achielles or Samson.

With this methodology of focussing only on what "might be" and what looks vaguely similar ignoring everything else one can prove virtually anything which means nothing.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Your reasoning for cultural connection beyond the well established ones, you obviously follow the same methodology you have shown us in many threads here about linguistic connections: You accumulate superficial similarities with some far fetched tweaking to make it look more impressive than it really is and as long as the cannot be positively be demonstrated to be accidental you regard them as confirmation of your pet theory even if more obvious explanations are available. Garmr is not four eyed and Kerberos, whuch may have influenced the Garmr legend us two or three headed and not four eyed. Practically all cultures have legends about invincible heroes and many with a weak spot, like Achielles or Samson.
> 
> With this methodology of focussing only on what "might be" and what looks vaguely similar ignoring everything else one can prove virtually anything which means nothing.



I certainly don't talk about some minor similarities, in different cultures there can be some invincible heroes, like Achielles or Samson but dragon-slayer heroes Sigurd and Esfandiyar differ from them, there are many myths about this dragon and its blood in both Iranian and Germanic cultures,  RĀMHORMOZ – Encyclopaedia Iranica: Near Māmātin village, 20 mi northeast of Rāmhormoz, is a natural liquid tar spring. Native myths hold that the spring is the blood of the dragon killed by Esfandiār.

If you want to deny all of these identical similarities which have been mentioned in all encyclopedias, then I can't say anything more about them. Of course I also don't deny that there can be also some minor similarities between other Indo-European cultures, especially between Celtic and Iranian/Germanic cultures, like between Cú Chulainn and Hildebrand/Rostam that I mentioned.

A comparative study of the hero in medieval Ireland, Persia, and England. Dr. Connell Raymond Monette



> Curiously, the biographies of the medieval Irish and Persian heroes Cuchulainn and Rostam demonstrate a number of analogous episodes. This thesis examines these heroes' genesis episodes, boyhood deeds, filicide episodes, heroic duels, Otherworld raids, and death tales; in addition, it finds significant thematic parallels between Old English Beowulf and the Persian Haftkhan-i-Rostam from the epic Shahnameh. These analogous episodes are used as a framework to see how Irish, Persian, and Old English literature deal with such concepts as loyalty, honor, fame, uncontrolled rage, the Otherworld---and the above all---the heroic code. This thesis then considers of the potential modes of narrative transmission (oral and literary) that would explain the occurrence of these analogues, and questions whether the analogues are evidence of a common Indo-European heroic tradition, or rather of early intercultural contact between Celtic and Iranian (including Scythian) tribes. Finally, the conclusion suggests new avenues of study and comparison between Eastern and Western branches of the Indo-European heroic tradition.


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## rayloom

Although I'm not a supporter of Jung's collective unconscious theory, but the discussion does remind me of Jungian archetypes. I didn't know elves (and for that matter, Als) caused miscarriage. Ancient Arabs used to believe that the jinn also caused miscarriage and child deformities.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> there are many myths about this dragon and its blood in both Iranian and Germanic cultures,


This is a good example of the "superficial similarities" that berndf mentioned.


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