# Come sta = come state?



## Scopa Nuova

In reading through a libretto I came across the following dialog.

Bartolo was falsely told that Basilio was sick. Then, unexpectedly, Basilio walks into the room, not knowing that Bartolo was told that he was sick.

Bartolo says to Basilio,

"Come state?"

With surprise, Basilio says to Bartolo,

"Come sto?"

My question is: shouldn't Bartolo have said,

"Come sta?"

Since he's addressing one person, which calls for the use of the second person singular of the verb stare. However, he used the second person plural (state).

Mi confondo! Qualcuno ha spiegazione?


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## chiaro

I think it is "come state" because Voi also happens to be used as a polite form of address.


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## Silvia B

chiaro said:
			
		

> I think it is "come state" because Voi also happens to be used as a polite form of address.



Exactly. It's old fashioned, and used in old books.
At present, you should ask "Come sta?" to be formal.


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## winnie

Silvia B said:
			
		

> Exactly. It's old fashioned, and used in old books.
> At present, you should ask "Come sta?" to be formal.


 
as usual you are right. this one only to make Scopa Nuova aware of a fact: in some southern Italian regions the form 'come state' or more generically the use of the 2nd plural person is still widely in use as the polite adresses to people.

if it happens to meet a Napoletano it's likely he would used that form.


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## Ludik

winnie said:
			
		

> as usual you are right. this one only to make Scopa Nuova aware of a fact: in some southern Italian regions the form 'come state' or more generically the use of the 2nd plural person is still widely in use as the polite adresses to people.
> 
> if it happens to meet a Napoletano it's likely he would used that form.


 
I totally agree, in the South it is still very common to use the 2nd plural person, even if "il lei", 3rd singular person, is accepted.


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## Scopa Nuova

Thanks much. I suspected the answer was something as stated by all of you, but I couldn't find it in any dictionary or the text book I have.

Che vasta conoscenza voi avete! (Did I say that right?)

Scopa Nuova


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## moodywop

Ludik said:
			
		

> I totally agree, in the South it is still very common to use the 2nd plural person, even if "il lei", 3rd singular person, is accepted.


 
That's a perfect description of current usage in the South.

In case anyone is interested this is how it works for me: I use "lei" to strangers normally(that may be because I mainly interacted with Italians from the Centre/North for ten years). I only use "voi" when speaking to an old person who mainly speaks dialect or to someone who uses "voi" to me as I feel that if they say "Come state?" and I reply "Bene. E lei?" it will sound as if I'm suggesting I'm better than them.

Of course there are people who use "voi" a lot more than I do. On the whole the more educated the speaker, the less likely he/she is to use forms derived from Neapolitan. This is sad - as if speaking Neapolitan were something to be ashamed of. The middle/upper classes never use the dialect. I think it will die out eventually. I myself am studying it as if it were an endangered species With some words I find in old songs I have to ask old people!

Carlo


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## Scopa Nuova

I never expected to get such a rich history from a question on just one word. What an amazing amount of knowledge available in this Forum.


Grazie a Tutti

Scopa Nuova


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## Ludik

Just to add an interesting information, I would say that Sicily is the only southern region where "voi" is not used, at least not like in the rest of the South. "Lei" is much more common and if you say "voi" to an older person they readily recognize you as a foregner, most of the times a calabrese...


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## moodywop

Ludik said:
			
		

> Just to add an interesting information, I would say that Sicily is the only southern region where "voi" is not used, at least not like in the rest of the South. "Lei" is much more common and if you say "voi" to an older person they readily recognize you as a foregner, most of the times a calabrese...


 
Thank you Ludik.

I didn't know that. I find all this kind of information really interesting. And I bet our non-Italian friends do too.

Carlo


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## grappa

Excellant information. Thank you Scopa Nuva for asking the question.


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## RCC

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> In reading through a libretto I came across the following dialog.
> 
> Bartolo was falsely told that Basilio was sick. Then, unexpectedly, Basilio walks into the room, not knowing that Bartolo was told that he was sick.
> 
> Bartolo says to Basilio,
> 
> "Come state?"
> 
> With surprise, Basilio says to Bartolo,
> 
> "Come sto?"
> 
> My question is: shouldn't Bartolo have said,
> 
> "Come sta?"
> 
> Since he's addressing one person, which calls for the use of the second person singular of the verb stare. However, he used the second person plural (state).
> 
> Mi confondo! Qualcuno ha spiegazione?


 
Is it Cesare Sterbini's libretto for "Il Barbiere di Siviglia" by Gioacchino Rossini?
If it's true, you must think it was written in 1816 and it was the language of that time.


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## Adel

_Just to add an interesting information, I would say that Sicily is the only southern region where "voi" is not used, at least not like in the rest of the South. "Lei" is much more common and if you say "voi" to an older person they readily recognize you as a foregner, *most of the times a calabrese...*_

...or a Napoletano..


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## Scopa Nuova

RCC,

You got it exactly right. This is the scene where the Count Almaviva has disguised himself as Don Alonzo, pupil of Don Basilio. He tells Dr. Bartolo that Don Basilio is sick and he is substituting for him. This deception is so that the Count can get to see Rosina (who he secertly loves) , ward of Bartolo.

In the meantime Don Basilio shows up and that is where the "Come state" comes in.

Your comment about being in the language of the time I'm sure is correct. Rossini was born in 1792 in Pesaro, Papal States, which is now the Le Marche Region in Northern Italy. In 1796 he moved to Bologna. A year or so before he composed Il Barbiere di Siviglia, he was employed in Naples. I believe he was in Rome in 1816 (when he was only 24) when Il Barbiere was first performed.

Perhaps his stay in Naples had some influence on his chioce of words. From the comments by others in this thread, at that time Northern Italians were also using "voi" for asking about a person's well being. So, all of this background certainly explains the use of "Come state".

I don't know much about Sterbini; where he was born or where lived. 

Even though I know works like this were written long ago and the language usage was different, I have no way to determine what's old fashion Italian and what's still in common usage.

Scopa Nuova


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## RCC

I think Sterbini was from Rome and he was a beginner when he wrote this libretto, but I haven't other news about him.
To say "Come state" was a common usage in that time everywhere in Italy, but also till about fifty years ago.
Rossini took eight days to compose "il barbiere", but it is one of the best operas of every time.
I hope you have listened to the overture and the arias "Largo al factotum", "La calunnia è un venticello", ecc...
Saluti, 
RCC


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## Scopa Nuova

RCC,


All Italians, both North and South, and all over the world should be proud of Rossini. In my opinion, "Il Barbiere" is THE best comic opera of all time.  I have watched the opera on DVD and played the music on tape in my automobile many times.

Because I am not satisfied with the translation given by subtitles and even the lack of subtitles for many parts of this wonderful opera, I am attempting to translate the entire libretto. To me, the "Old Fashion" Italian is still "alive and well" for all opera lovers.  Opera was invented by the Italians and for many years Italian was considered the official language for opera regardless of nationality of the composer. Indeed, Music itself uses the Italian notations, allegro, piano, ect., all over the world.

As long as there is opera "Old Fashion" Italian lives on! I am glad that there are those of you still able to help understand it.


Scopa Nuova


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## RCC

I agree: "Il Barbiere" is the best comic opera. However I think the best drammatic opera is "Il Rigoletto" by Verdi. Have you ever listened to it?
I am just learning English, but I'll be glad to help you to understand the libretto if you need.
Ciao, 
RCC


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## Scopa Nuova

RCC,

Yes I have seen and listened to Il Rigoletto. Since you seem to be very interested in opera as I am. I will try to e-mail you directly. I am not sure if it is appropriate for us to carry on a lengthy discussion on operas in this Forum.

I know that there are Forum rules that prohibit including long citations from copyright protected material. This would include opera libretti.


Arrivederci
Scopa Nuova


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## Isotta

Whoa, I wish I had read this thread ages ago. I'm accustomed to using the "vous" in French, and I have trouble with "Lei" in Italian. So if I'm talking to older people from Naples, I can, without sounding too strange, use "voi" even if I can't (yet) speak in dialect?

Z.


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## Silvia

Isotta said:
			
		

> So if I'm talking to older people from Naples, I can, without sounding too strange, use "voi" even if I can't (yet) speak in dialect?


Yes, you can. You can do it with other people and all over Italy if you want 



			
				Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> Your comment about being in the language of the time I'm sure is correct. Rossini was born in 1792 in Pesaro, Papal States, which is now the Le Marche Region in Northern Italy.


No, that region is in the center/South of Italy.


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## Isotta

Amazing. I'm floored. I had no idea.

And if I am speaking to a group of elderly people, the "voi" stays polite, right? Or do I have to switch over to third person plural?

Many thanks--

Z.


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## AlxGrim

That would be much too formal, I think. "Voi" would work.


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## Isotta

Fabo, many thanks to both of you.

Z.


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## Scopa Nuova

Silvia said:
			
		

> Yes, you can. You can do it with other people and all over Italy if you want
> 
> No, that region is in the center/South of Italy.


 
I just looked at a map of Italy and it appeared to me that Rome was aboout mid-point. So, Le Marche being north of Rome I called it in Northern Italy. Obviously, Italians don't divide the country that way.

I can easily see Le Marche being called Central Italy but would never have guessed South Italy. Where exactly do Italians set the dividing lines among North, Central, and South Italy?

Grazie,

Scopa Nuova


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## Silvia

Central Italy is correct, for Northern people it is often considered as South. I'm not sure what marchigiani think, it would be nice to know.


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## Scopa Nuova

Silvia said:
			
		

> Central Italy is correct, for Northern people it is often considered as South. I'm not sure what marchigiani think, it would be nice to know.


 
Silvia,

Ci sono. "Ognuno ha i suoi gusti"

OK. The same thing happens here in the U.S.

Scopa Nuova


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## fabry

Ludik said:
			
		

> Just to add an interesting information, I would say that Sicily is the only southern region where "voi" is not used, at least not like in the rest of the South. "Lei" is much more common and if you say "voi" to an older person they readily recognize you as a foregner, most of the times a calabrese...



Io sono salentino (Puglia), Sud Italia. Noi usiamo dare del "lei" e non del "voi" oO


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## Drusillo

Scopa Nuova said:
			
		

> ...
> Che vasta conoscenza (voi )avete!...


Almost right...
Ciao


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## Scopa Nuova

Thanks Drusillo,

That was back in September. I have learned much since then. Hopefully I know better now!


Ciao

Scopa Nuova


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## Drusillo

Excuse me! I realized that there is a second page only after posting my reply....
Ciao


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## david79

But, when did exactly Italians give up using "voi"?

I remember clearly a scene from "Una giornata particolare", which I watched with spanish subtitles, where Sophia Loren told Marcello Mastrioanni violently:

"Stop treating me by _voi_. Call me _lei_. _Voi _is the treatment prescribed by the regime".

Was, then, after the war that the use of _voi_ was rejected? Was the fascist _voi_ a revival of past glorious times for Italy?

Thanks.


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## claudine2006

david79 said:


> But, when did exactly Italians give up using "voi"?
> 
> I remember clearly a scene from "Una giornata particolare", which I watched with Spanish subtitles, where Sophia Loren told Marcello Mastrioanni violently:
> 
> "Stop treating me by _voi_. Call me _lei_. _Voi _is the treatment prescribed by the regime".
> 
> Was, then, after the war that the use of _voi_ was rejected? Was the fascist _voi_ a revival of past glorious times for Italy?
> 
> Thanks.


Probably the change was because of what Sofia Loren said.  
During the fascism in Italy we used "voi" and with the Republic we left "voi" because it reminded us the worse period of our history. 
Voi is still used in some villages, especially when you speak to an old person.


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## david79

claudine2006 said:


> Probably the change was because of what Sofia Loren said.
> During the fascism in Italy we used "voi" and with the Republic we left "voi" because it reminded us the worse period of our history.
> Voi is still used in some villages, especially when you speak to an old person.


 
I understand. It's something similar to which happened in Germany with the alveolar (instead of uvular) articulation of the phoneme _r_.


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