# Win Beforehand, 兼



## RedTsu1

Hi, WordReference!

I've been skimming through Hagakure, and one thing that caught my interest is this: _"In the "Notes on Martial Laws" it is written that: The phrase, ''Win first, fight later, '' can be summed up in the two words, "Win beforehand."_
I'm very curious to know how "win beforehand" was written in the original text (if that's even possible, i can't find it online to save my life) and/or to confirm that i'd be correct in thinking that in modern Japanese this would simply be "事前に勝つ." ...or should it be in imperative form, or is there a better/clearer way to write it...?

Thankyou!


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## ktdd

The original text seems to be:
軍法聞書の内、始勝後戦は*兼勝*の二字に極る。
So that's your two words.
(source: http://www.sagalibdb.jp/hagakure/pdf/gen/17.pdf)


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## RedTsu1

ktdd said:


> The original text seems to be:
> 軍法聞書の内、始勝後戦は*兼勝*の二字に極る。
> So that's your two words.
> (source: http://www.sagalibdb.jp/hagakure/pdf/gen/17.pdf)



Thankyou!! Even if i'd found that i wouldn't have known how to write the first character (兼) 
I've never encountered this kind of sentence structure before (...but then, i've only been studying the Japanese language for ~8 months.)
Do you know if this is Kobun/Bungo, or something else?


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## wind-sky-wind

Yes, "Hagakure 葉隠" was written in about 1716, so it is a kind of Kobun.

Neither "始勝後戦" nor "兼勝" is a common phrase in modern Japanese, probably in ancient Japanese as well.
Literally, "win first, fight later," "win beforehand" in English.

兼 is "兼ねて kanete" in kun-reading.
It generally means "combining," but "予て kanete" means "(from) before," which can also be written as "兼ねて."

We still use "かねてより" or "かねてから" as "from before," but just "かねて" in this sense sounds archaic.


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## ktdd

That character 兼 in the pdf file uses an old typeface that is no longer in use. But you can see it's the same character: 兼的异体字|兼的字形|兼的字源|汉典“兼”字的字形字形

The "beforehand" sense of 兼(かねて) is of purely Japanese origin, but with Chinese reading (けん) applied. A similar example is probably 大根 radish. It's a native Japanese word, originally read おおね. Then the pronunciation was Sinicized to become だいこん. But a Chinese person without Japanese knowledge wouldn't have a clue what it means.

By the way, I found another word where the kanji 兼 is used in this sense: 兼題(けんだい) - a set topic/theme for a poetry gathering 『新和英大辞典』; a subject for poems (given previous to a meeting) 『NEW斎藤和英大辞典』.


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## wind-sky-wind

According to 漢語林(kanji dictionary), 兼ねて means "beforehand,"
and the only phrase using this in it is "兼題," as ktdd showed.

Honestly, I didn't know 兼題,
and I think most Japanese people don't either.

As I said, in modern Japanese, just "かねてより" and "かねてから" sound common.

By the way, I think the idea "始勝後戦" or "兼勝" derives from 孫子's words:
勝兵は先ず勝ちて而る後に戦いを求め、敗兵は先ず戦いて而る後に勝を求む。


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## RedTsu1

*You guys are awesome!*



wind-sky-wind said:


> Yes, "Hagakure 葉隠" was written in about 1716, so it is a kind of Kobun.
> 
> Neither "始勝後戦" nor "兼勝" is a common phrase in modern Japanese, probably in ancient Japanese as well.
> Literally, "win first, fight later," "win beforehand" in English.
> 
> 兼 is "兼ねて kanete" in kun-reading.
> It generally means "combining," but "予て kanete" means "(from) before," which can also be written as "兼ねて."
> 
> We still use "かねてより" or "かねてから" as "from before," but just "かねて" in this sense sounds archaic.



Yeah, this isn't the first time i've encountered Kobun, but it is the first time i've seen it without hiragana... I wonder if the quotes are actually Kanbun (more specifically, 白文?) because i, like you, think it's a quote from chapter 4 of 孫子兵法. Since that was written in Chinese, it might make sense for a Japanese interpretation, at the time, to be written that way... maybe. It's such a nice, concise style of writing, but i can see why it had to change to work in the modern age. 



ktdd said:


> That character 兼 in the pdf file uses an old typeface that is no longer in use. But you can see it's the same character: 兼的异体字|兼的字形|兼的字源|汉典“兼”字的字形字形
> 
> The "beforehand" sense of 兼(かねて) is of purely Japanese origin, but with Chinese reading (けん) applied. A similar example is probably 大根 radish. It's a native Japanese word, originally read おおね. Then the pronunciation was Sinicized to become だいこん. But a Chinese person without Japanese knowledge wouldn't have a clue what it means.
> 
> By the way, I found another word where the kanji 兼 is used in this sense: 兼題(けんだい) - a set topic/theme for a poetry gathering 『新和英大辞典』; a subject for poems (given previous to a meeting) 『NEW斎藤和英大辞典』.



I'm glad you mentioned the reading! I thought it was unusual that he chose the Chinese readings (ken shou) even though as far as i could tell, and you just confirmed 兼 can only mean 'beforehand' in Japanese.


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## Flaminius

RedTsu1 said:


> I wonder if the quotes are actually Kanbun (more specifically, 白文?)


Since both 始勝後戦 and 兼勝 are nouns, I'd call them 和製漢語.  白文 is a Chinese text without punctuation, such as:
勝兵先勝而後戰敗兵先戰而後求勝

始勝後戦 may pass for a legitimate Chinese expression.  In the name of a 孫子 chapter, one finds 始 used in sense of "beforehand," 始計 (planning ahead).  Still, as a quote from 孫子, 先勝後戦 would have been more appropriate.


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## RedTsu1

Flaminius said:


> Since both 始勝後戦 and 兼勝 are nouns, I'd call them 和製漢語.  白文 is a Chinese text without punctuation, such as:
> 勝兵先勝而後戰敗兵先戰而後求勝
> 
> 始勝後戦 may pass for a legitimate Chinese expression.  In the name of a 孫子 chapter, one finds 始 used in sense of "beforehand," 始計 (planning ahead).  Still, as a quote from 孫子, 先勝後戦 would have been more appropriate.



Ah, I see. Thank you!
Now I just have to query that they're nouns. Up until now, I've interpreted 'win' as a verb in both sentences, since that's how I've read it translated into English. Can they (or could they, at the time) be read either way, or have I misunderstood?


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## Flaminius

The two expressions are constructed as close as possible to the Classical Chinese grammar but they are used as nouns in the Japanese text.  They take topic and genitive markers.


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## RedTsu1

Flaminius said:


> The two expressions are constructed as close as possible to the Classical Chinese grammar but they are used as nouns in the Japanese text.  They take topic and genitive markers.



I think I understand, but I want to make sure. At the moment, my understanding of it is that those particular phrases are written in 和製漢語, and so can be read in a verbal manner, but are being used as nouns in a "軍法聞書の内、「始勝後戦」は「*兼勝」*の二字に極る" kind of way. It might be easier if I try (try!) to use Modern Japanese to explain what I'm having trouble with: Does '兼勝' mean '事前に勝つ' or something more like '事前に勝利'?

Sorry for being such a bother!


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## Flaminius

First of all, 和製漢語 is a category for words used in Japanese.  Other types are 和語 or opinherited Japanese vocabulary and 漢語 of which 和製漢語 is a subtype.  漢語 encompasses words that are attested in Chinese texts or pronunced by the Sino-Japanese pronunciations (A notable exception is the Buddhist vocabulary but it largely belongs to the technical or historical realm).  

In academic discourse, unorthodox Chinese texts written by speakers of Japanese are called 日本の変格漢文.  兼勝 may be regarded as a short bit written in this style.

Now, the Japanese language has a traditional style for understanding 漢文.  漢文訓読 is a process of making a very literal translation of a Chinese text into Japanese.  It is perhaps what you called reading 始勝後戦 "in a verbal manner."  A possible 訓読 for this is: 始めに勝ちて後に戦う
I used an older conjugation of 勝つ in keeping with the 訓読 customs, but you can say 勝って too.

With caveat that 兼勝 does not have good grammar fitting for 科挙, for example, I may still attempt to translate it in 訓読;  兼ねて勝つ.

These two translations treat 勝 and 戦 as verbs.  They are, however, treated as nouns when read in the Sino-Japanese pronunciations; _shishōkōsen_ and _kenshō_.  Once incorporated into Japanese texts, the (pseudo-)Chinese grammatical constructions are ignored.

This is not a rare phenoeonon in cross-linguistic exchanges.  The Greek word _hoi polloi_ consists of the plural masculine definite article and the plural masculine of an adjective for "many."  When used in English as a facetious term for "populace", it is usually preceded by the definite article, _the_.  Greek grammar is thoroughly ignored here.  Nothing is wrong, though.  It is just the meaning and the pronunciation that are more important.


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## RedTsu1

Flaminius said:


> First of all, 和製漢語 is a category for words used in Japanese.  Other types are 和語 or opinherited Japanese vocabulary and 漢語 of which 和製漢語 is a subtype.  漢語 encompasses words that are attested in Chinese texts or pronunced by the Sino-Japanese pronunciations (A notable exception is the Buddhist vocabulary but it largely belongs to the technical or historical realm).
> 
> In academic discourse, unorthodox Chinese texts written by speakers of Japanese are called 日本の変格漢文.  兼勝 may be regarded as a short bit written in this style.
> 
> Now, the Japanese language has a traditional style for understanding 漢文.  漢文訓読 is a process of making a very literal translation of a Chinese text into Japanese.  It is perhaps what you called reading 始勝後戦 "in a verbal manner."  A possible 訓読 for this is: 始めに勝ちて後に戦う
> I used an older conjugation of 勝つ in keeping with the 訓読 customs, but you can say 勝って too.
> 
> With caveat that 兼勝 does not have good grammar fitting for 科挙, for example, I may still attempt to translate it in 訓読;  兼ねて勝つ.
> 
> These two translations treat 勝 and 戦 as verbs.  They are, however, treated as nouns when read in the Sino-Japanese pronunciations; _shishōkōsen_ and _kenshō_.  Once incorporated into Japanese texts, the (pseudo-)Chinese grammatical constructions are ignored.
> 
> This is not a rare phenoeonon in cross-linguistic exchanges.  The Greek word _hoi polloi_ consists of the plural masculine definite article and the plural masculine of an adjective for "many."  When used in English as a facetious term for "populace", it is usually preceded by the definite article, _the_.  Greek grammar is thoroughly ignored here.  Nothing is wrong, though.  It is just the meaning and the pronunciation that are more important.



Thankyou very much, I couldn't have asked for a better explaination! 
I'd like to thank ktdd and wind-sky-wind as well, I really appreciate that you were all willing to accomodate my interest in such a small thing!


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