# כבר



## theunderachiever

Hello to all.

I'm finding the word כבר used often in ways that have nothing to do with "already" and I'm not sure what to make of this.  An example, the context of which seemed kind of demanding, is:

כי אין כבר מצב

Is this one of those nuances I'm just going to have to slowly pick up like davka, a word that haunts me in my dreams?

I don't want to go throwing this word around if it has meanings I'm unaware of, but my dictionary and ones I've checked online all say already for כבר.

Thank you much.  Glad to be back


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## hadronic

In addition to "already", כבר has three main other functions :
- כבר שעה, כבר שנים :  since an hour, since a year
- כבר : hardly translatable, a filler to "insist" or show impatience. מתי תתחיל כבר לעבוד? When are you gonna start working 
תשתוק כבר! Will you shut up?! 
- כבר + negation : not any more. אני כבר לא רוצה:  I don't want anymore.  אין לי כבר כוח / כבר אין לי כוח:  I don't have the force anymore.


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## theunderachiever

Ok, wonderful.  So apart from the grammatical functions it acts as a sort of intensifier.  

As always, thanks for the prompt and thorough reply, hadronic.


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> - כבר : hardly translatable, a filler to "insist" or show impatience. מתי תתחיל כבר לעבוד? When are you gonna start working
> תשתוק כבר! Will you shut up?!



What's wrong with translating this as "already"? _When are you gonna start working *already*? Will you shut up *already*?_


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## hadronic

I'm no native speaker of English, so if you say "already" can be used in this context, fine. It's still a different meaning of that word, it just happens to coincide in English and Hebrew. In French, you can't use "déjà" to express impatience, conversely there are usage of déjà that are not covered by כבר (or "already"). (I know you know, it's just for the sake of precision  )

That said, in my experience,  כבר of insistance is a lot more common in Hebrew than "already" of insistance is in English.


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## Drink

Oh it's very common to use "already" that way in English. I'm not calling you out for listing it as another meaning, but for saying it's "hardly translatable" when it's so easily translatable.


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## hadronic

Ok  
Some other meanings, somewhat related to insistence, but I believe that English wouldn't use _already_ there :
- closer to "bien" of wondering (tinted with exasperation) in French :
מה כבר יכול להיות:  qu'est-ce qui peut bien arriver ? 
כמה כבר אפשר לאכול? How can one eat so much? 
מי כבר יכול לעמוד בלחץ כזה? Who on earth can...? Qui peut bien résister...? 
מתי יהיה לה כבר חבר? 

- "since we're at it"  :
אם כבר מדברים על זה...


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## Drink

hadronic said:


> Ok
> Some other meanings, somewhat related to insistence, but I believe that English wouldn't use _already_ there :
> - closer to "bien" of wondering (tinted with exasperation) in French :
> מה כבר יכול להיות:  qu'est-ce qui peut bien arriver ?
> כמה כבר אפשר לאכול? How can one eat so much?
> מי כבר יכול לעמוד בלחץ כזה? Who on earth can...? Qui peut bien résister...?
> מתי יהיה לה כבר חבר? When will she have a boyfriend already?
> 
> - "since we're at it"  :
> אם כבר מדברים על זה... Since we're already at it...



For the other three, I smell potential Russian influence. Russian would use "уж" in those cases, which is a shortened form of "уже" ("already"), but now has a bit of a different meaning. But in the last two, Russian would use "уже" and English would in fact use "already", so this must be an almost universal pattern that somehow escapes the French.


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## bazq

hadronic said:


> I'm no native speaker of English, so if you say "already" can be used in this context, fine. It's still a different meaning of that word, it just happens to coincide in English and Hebrew. In French, you can't use "déjà" to express impatience, conversely there are usage of déjà that are not covered by כבר (or "already"). (I know you know, it's just for the sake of precision  )
> 
> That said, in my experience,  כבר of insistance is a lot more common in Hebrew than "already" of insistance is in English.



Both Modern Hebrew and American English got this from Yiddish I presume, which uses "שוין" [shoyn].
I don't know if other varieties of English outside the USA use "already" like that ("come already!" etc). It will be interesting to find out if varieties of English in Britain use it (ariel?), and if it's an American influence.


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## Drink

bazq said:


> Both Modern Hebrew and American English got this from Yiddish I presume, which uses "שוין" [shoyn].
> I don't know if other varieties of English outside the USA use "already" like that ("come already!" etc). It will be interesting to find out if varieties of English in Britain use it (ariel?), and if it's an American influence.



I don't know... It seems too mainstream to have come from Yiddish. Yes, in some phrases (like your example of "come already!"), I can only picture it being said in a Jewish Brooklyn accent, but in others it could be said by anyone (like "come on already!" or "just get it done already!").


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## hadronic

For אם כבר, I don't think you can use _already_. It's a "set phrase" , the closest I can think of is French "tant qu'à", and I've never known how to say it in English. That's why I had to overhaul the entire sentence from אם כבר מדברים על זה to "if we are at it". You can add _already_ in there, but that's still not what the Hebrew original is saying. Literally, "if we are already talking about this" just doesn't cut it. 
"Tant qu'à parler de ça" is what I would say in French. 
Other examples :
*אם כבר* צריך לבחור אז עדיף שאתה.... 
אם כבר לטוס ליפן אז בסטייל.


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## theunderachiever

I'm also a bit lost when it comes to כבר and syntax.  I can't really discern a pattern here and כבר just feels like one of those particles which demands a particular word order for whatever is being emphasized.  For example:

?איך המשיח לא כבר בא להציל
?איך המשיח לא בא להציל כבר 
?איך המשיח *לא בא כבר להציל* 

Of those three examples, the last seems more correct to me, the first seems less correct...not sure why, and the second feels odd for some reason. I don't know why any seem right or wrong.  I see כבר show up all over the place in clauses.  Are there any consistent rules I can follow for the word order of כבר or will I just need more exposure to the language to grasp its nuances?  I fear it's used so widely and flexibly that it might not be practical for anyone to instruct me in proper usage.


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## airelibre

bazq said:


> Both Modern Hebrew and American English got this from Yiddish I presume, which uses "שוין" [shoyn].
> I don't know if other varieties of English outside the USA use "already" like that ("come already!" etc). It will be interesting to find out if varieties of English in Britain use it (ariel?), and if it's an American influence.


Definitely a more American thing. When we do say things like "Hurry up already!" I think it is from American influences from TV and film.


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## sawyeric1

Have you scheduled your next eye exam yet?
תיאמת כבר את בדיקת העיניים הבאה שלך

Is כבר used here because עוד "yet" is only used with negative expressions or something? Or is it just a stylistic tendency?


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## Just in time

So if I wanted to ask someone how long he'd been living in Israel I would say כמה זמן אתה כבר בארץ? and not כמה זמן אתה בארץ?


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## LXNDR

Both are correct, the 1st variant simply adds an adverb *כבר*
The difference is akin to that between _How long have you been living in Israel?_ and _How long have you *now* been living in Israel?_


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