# English, a Germanic language??



## nmgadb

I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic.  To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish.  In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english?  Thanks!
-Nathan
P.S.  Is there a german equivalent to my name?


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## gaer

nmgadb said:
			
		

> I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic. To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish. In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english? Thanks!
> -Nathan
> P.S. Is there a german equivalent to my name?


Perhaps Nathaniel. It would be rare, I think. And the pronunciation would be different. I'm answering because there are no one German speakers around to give you a better answer. 

Gaer


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## Ralf

Hi Nathan,

Sorry I can't think of anything clever to add to the original point of your thread. So please let me give a few words on your BTW:





			
				nmgadb said:
			
		

> ... Is there a german equivalent to my name?


Nathan is the shortened form of Nathanael. It is of hebrew origin and means as much as 'God's Gift'. Although you will surely find some hundred males of the Name Nathan in German speaking countries I think the closest German equivalent is Jonathan (hebrew: given by God). Another typical German name is Johannes (hebrew: God's Mercy), which could have been derived from Jonathan considering 'mercy' to be one of God's Gifts. Short forms of Johannes are Johann, Hannes, Hans or Johanna (feminine) and can be found in English language either. Just think about the name 'John'.

The hebrew origin of all of the names mentioned above is obvious. However, there is a number of names translated to German, but not inevitably related literally to Nathan (God's Gift):
Gottfried = God's pease
Gotthard/Gotthart = God's boldness/hardihood
Gottwin = God's friend

But I'm afraid this could be an interesting topic for the cultural issues forum: equivalent names in different languages.

Ralf


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## Lora

Well I think German is the only language which uses capitalisation on all nouns - this was once a feature of English - it faded out in Early Modern English I think. I don't think that this was a feature of any other languages - though I could very easily be wrong on that.


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## Whodunit

Look at this.


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## nmgadb

The reason I asked about my name is because gaer responded to a post of mine in another thread, and addressed me as Nath.  I've been called Nathan, Nate, Nathaniel, Natron, and Nat.  And sometimes I sign my posts as N8 (nate), but never have I been called Nath.  So, it made me wonder if Nath was maybe the German equivalent of Nathan.  

Ralf, I had forgotten about the hebrew origin of my name.  And I'd never thought about my name and John being the same (from the same origin).  Anyway, I guess it seems that I'm out of luck, and that my name is pretty much an american-only name.
-Nathan


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## Artrella

Hi Nathan!! Here you have some information about   English Language 

Bye!


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## Outsider

nmgadb said:
			
		

> I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic.  To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish.


There are real similarities between Spanish and English, because both are Indo-European languages.
However, most of the similarities you have noticed between them are probably misleading. All European languages, regardless of their origin, have borrowed heavily from Latin and Greek in recent centuries for technical and erudite terms (and from each other, as well), and that can make them look deceptively alike. But those are just superficial similarities, due to very recent loans with common origins.



			
				nmgadb said:
			
		

> In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english?  Thanks!


See the tables of cognates here and here, for the kind of similarities that have true linguistic significance.


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## alc112

Look atthis page:
http://german.about.com/library/verbs/blverb_index.htm
My Lehrerin was astonished in the verbs, she could realize the meanings in engolish (She doesn''t know english)


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## gaer

nmgadb said:
			
		

> The reason I asked about my name is because gaer responded to a post of mine in another thread, and addressed me as Nath. I've been called Nathan, Nate, Nathaniel, Natron, and Nat. And sometimes I sign my posts as N8 (nate), but never have I been called Nath. So, it made me wonder if Nath was maybe the German equivalent of Nathan.
> 
> Ralf, I had forgotten about the hebrew origin of my name. And I'd never thought about my name and John being the same (from the same origin). Anyway, I guess it seems that I'm out of luck, and that my name is pretty much an american-only name.
> -Nathan


"Nath" was a typo, Nathan. I don't ever shorten a name unless I ask first. My fingers have a mind of their own and often type total garbage.

If I had seen the mistake, I would have edited it. Sorry!

Gaer


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hi Nathan,
> 
> Sorry I can't think of anything clever to add to the original point of your thread. So please let me give a few words on your BTW:
> 
> What do you mean by "your BTW". I think you were speed-typing and thinking two things at the same time.
> […]
> Nathan is the shortened form of Nathanael.
> […]
> But I'm afraid this could be an interesting topic for the cultural issues forum: equivalent names in different languages.


Please don't suggest that we move one of the few topics we have here to another forum!  

I didn't know about the German spelling "Nathanael". Now I'm wondering about pronuncation.

Apparently this question started because of my stupid fingers, which left out the last two letters of Nathan's name. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> There are real similarities between Spanish and English, because both are Indo-European languages.
> However, most of the similarities you have noticed between them are probably misleading. All European languages, regardless of their origin, have borrowed heavily from Latin and Greek in recent centuries for technical and erudite terms (and from each other, as well), and that can make them look deceptively alike. But those are just superficial similarities, due to very recent loans with common origins.
> 
> 
> See the tables of cognates here and here, for the kind of similarities that have true linguistic significance.


For me, the real connection, useful connect, between English and German is structure. Although German word order makes it hard to see, I find German much closer to English than either French or Spanish, for instance.

I also see huge similarities between Spanish and French. This is based on very superficial knowledge combined with personal experience, so I am making no claims of being right about this. 

Gaer


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> For me, the real connection, useful connect, between English and German is structure. Although German word order makes it hard to see, I find German much closer to English than either French or Spanish, for instance.


But what do you mean by structure, exactly? If it's not word order, what would you say it is?


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> But what do you mean by structure, exactly? If it's not word order, what would you say it is?


Things like modal verbs and auxiliary verbs, for instance. I'm very tired and would like to come back to this, but think of how future is formed in Spanish and French by adding and ending to verbs, while German uses "werden", which works like "will".

My explanation is TERRIBLE. I would have to give it a great deal of thought, but I was struck after struggling with Japanese for more than five years that suddenly German looked like slightly exotic English. I'm also very close to German, which gives me a bias. If you are interested, I'll try to come up with more examples, and you are free (of course) to point out if I'm wrong.

The difference in word order is deceiving. Because most of it takes place in dependent clauses and involved verbs moving to the end, German appears much more different from English than it actually is. Could we continue this later? I would enjoy it!

Gaer


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## Outsider

O.K. I'd like that.


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## Artrella

I found similarities between German and English as far as words and some pronunciations are concerned.

But its Grammar is to me, more similar to the Spanish one than to the English one.  I find a lot more Latin in German than in English.


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> I found similarities between German and English as far as words and some pronunciations are concerned.
> 
> But its Grammar is to me, more similar to the Spanish one than to the English one. I find a lot more Latin in German than in English.


 
Art, I can look for examples in the book I've been working with, Le Petit Prince. It is the only book I found on line in al four languages: Geramn, English, Spanish and French. But if I pick lines that seem to show German is closer to English than Spanish, it MAY be an error. First, I may pick examples, subconciously, that tend to "prove my point".

In addition, is it possible we see the strongest connections between the languages we know best? Your strongest language is Spanish. So if you are comparing German to English and Spanish, wouldn't it be natural to see more connections with your first language and German?

For the same reason, I suspect I would tend to think Spanish is closer to English than to French, and closer to German than French. (But this is not so! I am thinking out loud, and as I consider what I just said, that has not been my impression.) Well, let me see if I can find a couple examples in four languages. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> O.K. I'd like that.


Outside, if you'll skim what I just wrote to Art, you have my best idea at the moment. I'll try to find things. I myself don't know what results there will be, or what conclusions we might draw. 

Gaer


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## Artrella

gaer said:
			
		

> Art, I can look for examples in the book I've been working with, Le Petit Prince. It is the only book I found on line in al four languages: Geramn, English, Spanish and French. But if I pick lines that seem to show German is closer to English than Spanish, it MAY be an error. First, I may pick examples, subconciously, that tend to "prove my point".
> 
> Gaer




Yes, it is possible that we tend to do that.
But take this facts into account:

1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words).  But they are in Spanish.

For instance, you have in German dich, dir.  In Spanish you have ti, te.  In English you only have "you"

*I * give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
*Te* doy un libro a *tí.*

Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.

Diese Buch ist für* dich*


2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives.  They are differentiated in German and in Spanish.  Not in English.

eg,

*My * book/books/mother/father/siblings
*The * book/books/mother/father/siblings
*A * car/woman
*Some* cars/women

Mein Buch - mein*e* Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister 
*das* Buch - *die* Bücher- die Mutter - *der* Vater -*die * Geschwister
Ein Mann - ein*e* Frau - ein Auto 
einige Autos -einige Frauen

Mi libro-Mi*s* libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
*el * libro- *los* libros-*la * madre-el padre-los hermanos
*un * hombre-*una* mujer-un auto-
Algun*o*s autos- Algun*a*s mujeres

3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish

*>>>* Präsens  
Indikativ Konjunktiv  
ich  dusche / ich  dusche  

*>>>* Präteritum  
Indikativ Konjunktiv II 
ich  duschte / ich  duschte  

*>>> *  Perfekt 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I 
ich habe  geduscht  /ich  habe  geduscht  

*>>> * Plusquamperfekt 
Indikativ Konjunktiv II 
ich  hatte  geduscht  ich  hätte  geduscht  

*>>> *  Imperativ

*>>>*  Futur I 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II 
ich  werde  duschen/  ich  werde  duschen / ich  würde   duschen  

*>>> *  Futur II 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II 
ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  würde   geduscht haben  

In Spanish    conjugations 


So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar.


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## alc112

Artrella said:
			
		

> *I *give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
> *Te* doy un libro a *tí.*
> 
> Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.
> 
> Diese Buch ist für* dich*


 
Me confunde un poco la oración en alemán
Hasta lo que sé, Sein es el unico verbo que usa nominativo, los demás no lo usan (o creo que haben por ahi se lo usa)
¿Por qué usas acusativo si está Sein?
Acaso las preposiciones les ganan a los verbos?

the german sentence confuses me a bit.
As far as i know, Sein is the only one verb that use nomminativ, the rest don't (or i think haben use it too)
why do you use akusativ if Sein is the sentence?
Do the prepositions win against verbs?

Gracias
Feel free to correct my translation


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## Artrella

> *alc112*
> Me confunde un poco la oración en alemán
> Hasta lo que sé, Sein es el unico verbo que usa nominativo, los demás no lo usan (o creo que haben por ahi se lo usa)
> ¿Por qué usas acusativo si está Sein?
> Acaso las preposiciones les ganan a los verbos?


*SIIIII*  No en todos los casos pero en el caso de * für-durch-gegen-ohne* IMMER AKKUSATIV
These prepositions *always* take DATIV >> *mit-zu-bei-seit-nach-aus-von*


> the German sentence confuses me a bit.
> As far as i know, Sein is the only one verb that useS nomminativ, the rest don't (or i think haben useS it too)
> why do you use akKusativ if YOU ARE USING Sein in the sentence?
> Do the prepositions win against   verbs?


  I'm not sure if it is *win against * or *over* >>  Maybe *Gaer* can help us

 

Gracias
Feel free to correct my translation[/QUOTE]


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## alc112

Gracias Art. !!!!
Algunos ejemplos?


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## gaer

Art, for simplicity, your comments in blue, with italics:

_But take these facts into account:_

_1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words). But there are in Spanish. (Or they are marked......... in Spanish.)_

_For instance, you have in German dich, dir. In Spanish you have ti, te. In English you only have "you"._

This is a good point, and this is a way German, French and Spanish are all alike, I think.

But we HAD "thou". Thou hast. The informal form has been lost or is now archaic. 

_I give you a book / this book is for you
Te doy un libro a tí._

Why this: Te doy un libro a tí.

_Ich gebe dir ein Buch._
_Dieses Buch ist für dich_

If your point is that "dir" often must be translated with "to you", I agree.

_2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives. They are differentiated in German and in Spanish. Not in English._

_eg,_

_My book/books/mother/father/siblings
The book/books/mother/father/siblings
A car/woman
Some cars/women_

_Mein Buch - meine Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister 
das Buch - die Bücher- die Mutter - der Vater -die Geschwister
Ein Mann - eine Frau - ein Auto 
einige Autos -einige Frauen_

_Mi libro-Mis libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
el libro- los libros-la madre-el padre-los hermanos
un hombre-una mujer-un auto-
Algunos autos- Algunas mujeres_

Okay. Here I totally agree with you. In fact, in this area, German was very useful to help me understand Spanish and French. English is all but useless here. So I agree.

_3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish._

Here I want to point out that everything you mention has to do with subjuntive. Most subjunctive forms do not exist in English. The exist in Spanish, French and German. Again, I agree with you.

_ich hatte geduscht ich hätte geduscht_ 

HERE we have something you may not know about. In the dependent clause, we can do ths same thing in English, but not in the next part…

Hätte ich das getan, dann hätte ich…
Had I done that, then I would have…

_So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar._

I agree with you. The subjunctive forms are less complicated than they appear though, in German. As you learn more, I'll explain why. Most of the subjuntive forms that are used are very similar to English. The exception—and this is HUGE—is what might be called the "present tense subjunctive", which is so often used in reporting.

Art, you have raised SO many points here. A BOOK could be written about what you just mentioned. I totally agree with you, but I have another view. It does not contradict anything you said, it just highlights different parts of German. I'll try very hard to illustrate, if I can!

Gaer


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## alc112

Te doy un libro a tí
"A tí" can be taken out. she put the whole sentence. You wouldn't listen to a spanish speaker saying "te doy el libro a tí" if he/she is talking with you only. He/ she would say A tí when there are more than 1 person with her/his.


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## alc112

Tell us about the question
"do prepositions win against verbs?"
Is the questioon correct? (just hte question, Art. has already answered it)
Thanks


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## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Te doy un libro a tí
> "A tí" can be taken out. she put the whole sentence. You wouldn't listen to a spanish speaker saying "te doy el libro a tí" if he/she is talking with you only. He/ she would say A tí when there are more than 1 person with her/his.


 
Well, I'm confused. I understand VERY little Spanish!

Gaer


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## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Tell us about the question
> "do prepositions win against verbs?"
> Is the questioon correct? (just hte question, Art. has already answered it)
> Thanks


Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if prepositions are more like English?

Gaer


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## alc112

gaer said:
			
		

> Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if prepositions are more like English?
> 
> Gaer


Hi!
No.
don't worry i have asked in GV forum

I meant:
Prepositions Vs verbs   Who wins?
What do you think I should have put, against, over or versus in my question?


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## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Hi!
> No.
> don't worry i have asked in GV forum
> 
> I meant:
> Prepositions Vs verbs Who wins?
> What do you think I should have put, against, over or versus in my question?


 
Prepositions vs. verbs. WHICH ones win?

This is ONE solution. 

Gaer


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## alc112

gaer said:
			
		

> Prepositions vs. verbs. WHICH ones win?
> 
> This is ONE solution.
> 
> Gaer


 
Thanks gaer, i didn't realize

you're misunderstanding me I meant
Do prepositions win __________ verbs?
What preposition would you use in the question above?


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## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Thanks gaer, i didn't realize
> 
> you're misunderstanding me I meant
> Do prepositions win __________ verbs?
> What preposition would you use in the question above?


 
Okay. There I think you could say:

Do prepositions win over verbs? But there there is a potential problem:

"Win over" is an idiom, and it means "convince".

TO EVERYONE:

After looking at some setences in four languages, I am totally mixed up. It still appears to me that French and Spanish are very similar. English seems very different from both. And German I absolutely can NOT judge, because it is so natural to me, it just seems right. 

For tonight I give up. Maybe tomorrow…

Gaer


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## nmgadb

Wow, this thread has traveled far.  That'll teach me to spend all day making an intake manifold, now I have to stay up late to read all of the responses.  For me, the main purpose in starting this thread was to find some of the connections between german and english.  I think we could talk forever about how each language relates to another, or a group of languages.  Next I'll need help learning how to pronounce the words I'm learning...I'll probably just listen to music to help with that.  Well, I think I'm rambling now so good night.
-Nath


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> I give you a book / this book is for you
> Te doy un libro a tí.
> 
> Why this: Te doy un libro a tí.


The sentence _Te doy un libro *a tí*_ emphasises the receiver of the book, _tú_, by repeating the personal pronoun.

As alc112 says, the second pronoun phrase, _a tí_, can be omitted.

This can be done in French, too, by the way: "Je te donne le livre *à toi*". But not in English, as far as I m aware.


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## Outsider

Artrella said:
			
		

> But take this facts into account:
> 
> 1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words).  But they are in Spanish.


  Traditional grammars do not describe Spanish as a language with cases, either. 
But let's look at your examples...



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> For instance, you have in German dich, dir.  In Spanish you have ti, te.  In English you only have "you"
> 
> *I * give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
> *Te* doy un libro a *tí.*
> 
> Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.
> 
> Diese Buch ist für* dich*


That's correct, as far as it goes, but now consider "he" instead of "you". You also say "I give *him* a book" in English, not "I give he a book".

So, you see, personal pronouns can change in English, too. 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> 2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives.  They are differentiated in German and in Spanish.  Not in English.
> eg,
> 
> *My * book/books/mother/father/siblings
> *The * book/books/mother/father/siblings
> *A * car/woman
> *Some* cars/women
> 
> Mein Buch - mein*e* Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister
> *das* Buch - *die* Bücher- die Mutter - *der* Vater -*die * Geschwister
> Ein Mann - ein*e* Frau - ein Auto
> einige Autos -einige Frauen
> 
> Mi libro-Mi*s* libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
> *el * libro- *los* libros-*la * madre-el padre-los hermanos
> *un * hombre-*una* mujer-un auto-
> Algun*o*s autos- Algun*a*s mujeres


This much is true. However, ancient English had these kinds of declensions as well. They have been simplified and lost.



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> 3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish
> 
> *>>>* Präsens
> Indikativ Konjunktiv
> ich  dusche / ich  dusche


Technically, English has a present subjunctive as well, although it tends not to be used in informal speech, and (again, because of simplifications occurred throughout the history of English) it does not vary much with respect to the indicative present tense:

he showers / (that) he *shower* 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> *>>>* Präteritum
> Indikativ Konjunktiv II
> ich  duschte / ich  duschte


I was / (if) I were 

Simplifications have made it indistinguishable from the indicative in other English verbs, but you can still tell the difference in the irregular verb "to be". 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> *>>>*  Futur I
> Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II
> ich  werde  duschen/  ich  werde  duschen / ich  würde   duschen
> 
> *>>> *  Futur II
> Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II
> ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  würde   geduscht haben


Notice, however, that the future is a simple tense in Spanish, but a compound (auxiliary verb + main verb) in both English and German.  



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar.


The complexity of German verb conjugation resembles that of Spanish more than the extremely simple verb conjugation of English, that's true. On the other hand, you will find precious few (if any) Indo-European languages with a verb conjugation as simple as English.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> The sentence _Te doy un libro *a tí*_ emphasises the receiver of the book, _tú_, by repeating the personal pronoun.
> 
> As alc112 says, the second pronoun phrase, _a tí_, can be omitted.
> 
> This can be done in French, too, by the way: "Je te donne le livre *à toi*". But not in English, as far as I m aware.


Okay. Each language has a kind of "useful redundancy". Although most of the time, repeating something is not necessary, it adds emphasis or color to what we say.

I also can't think of an example where the kind of thing you just mentioned is done in German.

Thanks for the explanation!

Gaer


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Traditional grammars do not describe Spanish as a language with cases, either.
> But let's look at your examples...
> 
> 
> That's correct, as far as it goes, but now consider "he" instead of "you". You also say "I give *him* a book" in English, not "I give he a book".
> 
> So, you see, personal pronouns can change in English, too.
> 
> 
> This much is true. However, ancient English had these kinds of declensions as well. They have been simplified and lost.
> 
> 
> Technically, English has a present subjunctive as well, although it tends not to be used in informal speech, and (again, because of simplifications occurred throughout the history of English) it does not vary much with respect to the indicative present tense:
> 
> he showers / (that) he *shower*
> 
> 
> I was / (if) I were
> 
> Simplifications have made it indistinguishable from the indicative in other English verbs, but you can still tell the difference in the irregular verb "to be".
> 
> 
> Notice, however, that the future is a simple tense in Spanish, but a compound (auxiliary verb + main verb) in both English and German.
> 
> 
> The complexity of German verb conjugation resembles that of Spanish more than the extremely simple verb conjugation of English, that's true. On the other hand, you will find precious few (if any) Indo-European languages with a verb conjugation as simple as English.


Outside, I am aware of the things you mentioned, but they get so complicated!

On a simpler and more useful note, I have found German to be much more useful than English in helping me understand how French and Spanish work.

And yet German still feels more like English to me than these other languages, and right now I'm trying to figure out why. Perhaps, among other things, it's because there are so many idioms that English and German share, and I'm not sure that is true of English and French, or English and Spanish.

It's SO confusing!

Gaer


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## Outsider

Maybe it comes down to the fact that English is a somewhat exceptional language among Indo-European languages, in that its inflection and its conjugation have been drastically reduced. However, that did not change the core vocabulary or other aspects of grammar.

Think of Latin and Romance languages. People have told me that Latin is like German, because both have declensions, while most Romance languages have not. Yet, it's quite clear that Latin is closer to any Romance language than German.


----------



## beigatti

Es ist fast einen Monat her seit dem ich irgendetwas geschrieben habe.  

English and German are very similar in many ways.  If I were to dust off my old linguistic books and my mittlehochdeutsch textbooks from 1,000 years ago, I could tell you what happened during the first Lautverschiebung and the second.  I can remember a few things:

Just looking at consonants:

From German to English, "T" became "D"
Be*tt* ---> Be*d*
*T*ür ---> *D*oor
Lau*t* ---> lou*d*

"Pf" or "f" became "P"

*Pf*e*ff*er ---> *p*e*pp*er
Lau*f* --->  lo*p*e
*Pf*ei*f*e ---> *p*i*p*e

"cht" became "ght"

acht ---> eight
fracht ---> freight
macht ---> might

I find it fascinating.

Jo-Ann


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Maybe it comes down to the fact that English is a somewhat exceptional language among Indo-European languages, in that its inflection and its conjugation have been drastically reduced. However, that did not change the core vocabulary or other aspects of grammar.
> 
> Think of Latin and Romance languages. People have told me that Latin is like German, because both have declensions, while most Romance languages have not. Yet, it's quite clear that Latin is closer to any Romance language than German.


Man, I don't even know what "declension" means. In addition, Latin was not taught in school here. I've mentioned elsewhere that that teaching of languages that HAVE been taught in this area of the US has been pathetic.. But I'll tell you one thing that fascinates me, and that is that languages work just fine without things that other languages consider essential. Consider Japanese, which has no plurals, no articles has no conjugations in the manner of European languages.

Where I see a striking relationship between German and English is certain verbs froms, such as trink-, trank, getrunken. Sitzen/setzen follow the same pattern as sit/sit, and liegen/legen likewise. Unfortunately, I used to know much more about these things, because I NEEDED to know them to figure out what I was reading in German. Once I began reading fluently, I forgot all the rules that I once needed and started going on autopilot. 

Gaer


----------



## gaer

beigatti said:
			
		

> Es ist fast einen Monat her seit dem ich irgendetwas geschrieben habe.
> 
> English and German are very similar in many ways. If I were to dust off my old linguistic books and my mittlehochdeutsch textbooks from 1,000 years ago, I could tell you what happened during the first Lautverschiebung and the second. I can remember a few things:
> 
> Just looking at consonants:
> 
> From German to English, "T" became "D"
> Be*tt* ---> Be*d*
> *T*ür ---> *D*oor
> Lau*t* ---> lou*d*
> 
> "Pf" or "f" became "P"
> 
> *Pf*e*ff*er ---> *p*e*pp*er
> Lau*f* ---> lo*p*e
> *Pf*ei*f*e ---> *p*i*p*e
> 
> "cht" became "ght"
> 
> acht ---> eight
> fracht ---> freight
> macht ---> might
> 
> I find it fascinating.
> 
> Jo-Ann


Jo-Ann,

You just made it clear what I sense, subconsciously. More please, if you have the info!

Gaer


----------



## Whodunit

beigatti said:
			
		

> "cht" became "ght"
> 
> acht ---> eight
> fracht ---> freight
> macht ---> might
> 
> I find it fascinating.
> 
> Jo-Ann



Hallo erst einmal Jo-Ann,

es ist schön, mal wieder etwas von dir zu hören.

But what about
Yacht ---> yacht ???


----------



## beigatti

Yacht ist ein relativ neues Wort.  


Die erste Lautverschiebung entstand 1000 v.Chr bis ungefaer 300 v.Chr.

Die zweite Lautverschiebung war spaeter...um 500 n Chr.


Jo-Ann


----------



## Whodunit

beigatti said:
			
		

> Yacht ist ein relativ neues Wort.
> 
> 
> Die erste Lautverschiebung entstand 1000 v.Chr bis ungefaer 300 v.Chr.
> 
> Die zweite Lautverschiebung war spaeter...um 500 n Chr.
> 
> 
> Jo-Ann



Okay, da muss ich zugeben, zu diesen Zeiten gab es noch keine "Jacht".


----------



## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> Jo-Ann,
> 
> You just made it clear what I sense, subconsciously. More please, if you have the info!
> 
> [...]
> 
> Where I see a striking relationship between German and English is certain verbs froms, such as trink-, trank, getrunken. Sitzen/setzen follow the same pattern as sit/sit, and liegen/legen likewise.


That's the famous consonant shift of High German.
 German-English cognate sound shifts.
 English and German



			
				gaer said:
			
		

> Man, I don't even know what "declension" means. In addition, Latin was not taught in school here. I've mentioned elsewhere that that teaching of languages that HAVE been taught in this area of the US has been pathetic..


Declension (or inflection) is when a word changes according to its syntactic function in a sentence. For instance, in English, the pronoun "he" is used as a subject, but it changes to "him" when it's an object, "his" when it's a possessive, and "himself" when it's a reflexive pronoun (both subject and object). This is analogous to verb conjugation, whereby a verb changes according to its subject.

But in contemporary English this is limited to a small number of pronouns, so you don't need to think in terms of the general concept of declension to learn them. In Latin, all nouns and adjectives change according to their syntactic function; declension is an essential feature of the language. Most Romance languages have about as little declension as English, but German still has some declensions, from what I understand.



			
				gaer said:
			
		

> But I'll tell you one thing that fascinates me, and that is that languages work just fine without things that other languages consider essential. Consider Japanese, which has no plurals, no articles has no conjugations in the manner of European languages.


On the other hand, Japanese has a large number of honorific forms of addressing, without any match in European languages... 
 Japanese honorifics.


----------



## Artrella

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages]  [URL=http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/oe-ie.html]  indo european languages 3 sites    [/URL] [/URL]


----------



## Outsider

A little about Old English. Notice how it had genders and cases (declensions)!


----------



## Artrella

Outsider said:
			
		

> A little about Old English. Notice how it had genders and cases (declensions)!




Yes!! It had declensions!! I didn't know that... Good link Outsider!  
Now we have to find the "mother language"... it seems that all languages come from the same language...this is the linguists' job...


----------



## JLanguage

English is not a very inflexional language. As I continue to learn Hebrew I find more and more evidence of inflexion's central importance in Hebrew grammar. This is especially true of Latin, everything changes based on it's position in the language. To me inflexion/lack of inflexion, is a double-edged sword while inflexion can aid comprehension, it can also lead to overly complex grammatical rules that hinder assimilation and comprehension of a language.


----------



## gaer

I now know what "declension" means, because I looked it up when I got home. And it's a great deal of what makes German so terribly difficult to write. 

I can only imagine that Latin must be a problem to write. 

By the way, the honorifics in Japanese are truly a nightmare. It's like taking the formal/informal address in European languages and making it all about 1000 times more complicated.

The only point I was trying to make is that we think we need the things that are in our own languages.

Look at these sentences:

I look for new posts each day.
I look for my book before work, but I could not find it. (It must be "looked".)
I have look everywhere for an answer to my questions. (It must be "looked".)

This looks and is illiterate, right?

But:
I set the table each day. (present)
I set the table yesterday. (past)
I have set the table every day this week. (present perfect)

Suddenly this is perfectly correct English, and we hear nothing wrong with this. ALL verbs could be like this, logically, in English. In the same way, you could remove all articles and use other clues to make the sense clear. It's simply an interesting thing to think about. What part of language do we NEED, and what part do we simply use because it is "the way it's always been". 

Gaer


----------



## lightarch

Geography may help rather than history. English is a North Sea language,  largely a language of mariners and deep sea fisher folk and trade. Romance languages are of a different sea the Mediterranean, Mare Nostum, based on the speech of soldiers rather than lawyers or churchmen, cultivated by farmers, . And of course Shakespeare.


----------



## nmgadb

I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic.  To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish.  In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english?  Thanks!
-Nathan
P.S.  Is there a german equivalent to my name?


----------



## gaer

nmgadb said:
			
		

> I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic. To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish. In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english? Thanks!
> -Nathan
> P.S. Is there a german equivalent to my name?


Perhaps Nathaniel. It would be rare, I think. And the pronunciation would be different. I'm answering because there are no one German speakers around to give you a better answer. 

Gaer


----------



## Ralf

Hi Nathan,

Sorry I can't think of anything clever to add to the original point of your thread. So please let me give a few words on your BTW:





			
				nmgadb said:
			
		

> ... Is there a german equivalent to my name?


Nathan is the shortened form of Nathanael. It is of hebrew origin and means as much as 'God's Gift'. Although you will surely find some hundred males of the Name Nathan in German speaking countries I think the closest German equivalent is Jonathan (hebrew: given by God). Another typical German name is Johannes (hebrew: God's Mercy), which could have been derived from Jonathan considering 'mercy' to be one of God's Gifts. Short forms of Johannes are Johann, Hannes, Hans or Johanna (feminine) and can be found in English language either. Just think about the name 'John'.

The hebrew origin of all of the names mentioned above is obvious. However, there is a number of names translated to German, but not inevitably related literally to Nathan (God's Gift):
Gottfried = God's pease
Gotthard/Gotthart = God's boldness/hardihood
Gottwin = God's friend

But I'm afraid this could be an interesting topic for the cultural issues forum: equivalent names in different languages.

Ralf


----------



## Lora

Well I think German is the only language which uses capitalisation on all nouns - this was once a feature of English - it faded out in Early Modern English I think. I don't think that this was a feature of any other languages - though I could very easily be wrong on that.


----------



## Whodunit

Look at this.


----------



## nmgadb

The reason I asked about my name is because gaer responded to a post of mine in another thread, and addressed me as Nath.  I've been called Nathan, Nate, Nathaniel, Natron, and Nat.  And sometimes I sign my posts as N8 (nate), but never have I been called Nath.  So, it made me wonder if Nath was maybe the German equivalent of Nathan.  

Ralf, I had forgotten about the hebrew origin of my name.  And I'd never thought about my name and John being the same (from the same origin).  Anyway, I guess it seems that I'm out of luck, and that my name is pretty much an american-only name.
-Nathan


----------



## Artrella

Hi Nathan!! Here you have some information about   English Language 

Bye!


----------



## Outsider

nmgadb said:
			
		

> I know that english and german share the same roots, but since the main foreign language that I have to associate with english is spanish I sometimes forget that english is germanic.  To me there are so many words and phrases that correlate between english and spanish.


There are real similarities between Spanish and English, because both are Indo-European languages.
However, most of the similarities you have noticed between them are probably misleading. All European languages, regardless of their origin, have borrowed heavily from Latin and Greek in recent centuries for technical and erudite terms (and from each other, as well), and that can make them look deceptively alike. But those are just superficial similarities, due to very recent loans with common origins.



			
				nmgadb said:
			
		

> In fact I'm sure we could write for days about how all languages correlate to an extent, but I guess the point of this post is to see if anyone has a link to a site that perhaps has a list of cognates between german and english?  Thanks!


See the tables of cognates here and here, for the kind of similarities that have true linguistic significance.


----------



## alc112

Look atthis page:
http://german.about.com/library/verbs/blverb_index.htm
My Lehrerin was astonished in the verbs, she could realize the meanings in engolish (She doesn''t know english)


----------



## gaer

nmgadb said:
			
		

> The reason I asked about my name is because gaer responded to a post of mine in another thread, and addressed me as Nath. I've been called Nathan, Nate, Nathaniel, Natron, and Nat. And sometimes I sign my posts as N8 (nate), but never have I been called Nath. So, it made me wonder if Nath was maybe the German equivalent of Nathan.
> 
> Ralf, I had forgotten about the hebrew origin of my name. And I'd never thought about my name and John being the same (from the same origin). Anyway, I guess it seems that I'm out of luck, and that my name is pretty much an american-only name.
> -Nathan


"Nath" was a typo, Nathan. I don't ever shorten a name unless I ask first. My fingers have a mind of their own and often type total garbage.

If I had seen the mistake, I would have edited it. Sorry!

Gaer


----------



## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hi Nathan,
> 
> Sorry I can't think of anything clever to add to the original point of your thread. So please let me give a few words on your BTW:
> 
> What do you mean by "your BTW". I think you were speed-typing and thinking two things at the same time.
> […]
> Nathan is the shortened form of Nathanael.
> […]
> But I'm afraid this could be an interesting topic for the cultural issues forum: equivalent names in different languages.


Please don't suggest that we move one of the few topics we have here to another forum!  

I didn't know about the German spelling "Nathanael". Now I'm wondering about pronuncation.

Apparently this question started because of my stupid fingers, which left out the last two letters of Nathan's name. 

Gaer


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> There are real similarities between Spanish and English, because both are Indo-European languages.
> However, most of the similarities you have noticed between them are probably misleading. All European languages, regardless of their origin, have borrowed heavily from Latin and Greek in recent centuries for technical and erudite terms (and from each other, as well), and that can make them look deceptively alike. But those are just superficial similarities, due to very recent loans with common origins.
> 
> 
> See the tables of cognates here and here, for the kind of similarities that have true linguistic significance.


For me, the real connection, useful connect, between English and German is structure. Although German word order makes it hard to see, I find German much closer to English than either French or Spanish, for instance.

I also see huge similarities between Spanish and French. This is based on very superficial knowledge combined with personal experience, so I am making no claims of being right about this. 

Gaer


----------



## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> For me, the real connection, useful connect, between English and German is structure. Although German word order makes it hard to see, I find German much closer to English than either French or Spanish, for instance.


But what do you mean by structure, exactly? If it's not word order, what would you say it is?


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> But what do you mean by structure, exactly? If it's not word order, what would you say it is?


Things like modal verbs and auxiliary verbs, for instance. I'm very tired and would like to come back to this, but think of how future is formed in Spanish and French by adding and ending to verbs, while German uses "werden", which works like "will".

My explanation is TERRIBLE. I would have to give it a great deal of thought, but I was struck after struggling with Japanese for more than five years that suddenly German looked like slightly exotic English. I'm also very close to German, which gives me a bias. If you are interested, I'll try to come up with more examples, and you are free (of course) to point out if I'm wrong.

The difference in word order is deceiving. Because most of it takes place in dependent clauses and involved verbs moving to the end, German appears much more different from English than it actually is. Could we continue this later? I would enjoy it!

Gaer


----------



## Outsider

O.K. I'd like that.


----------



## Artrella

I found similarities between German and English as far as words and some pronunciations are concerned.

But its Grammar is to me, more similar to the Spanish one than to the English one.  I find a lot more Latin in German than in English.


----------



## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> I found similarities between German and English as far as words and some pronunciations are concerned.
> 
> But its Grammar is to me, more similar to the Spanish one than to the English one. I find a lot more Latin in German than in English.


 
Art, I can look for examples in the book I've been working with, Le Petit Prince. It is the only book I found on line in al four languages: Geramn, English, Spanish and French. But if I pick lines that seem to show German is closer to English than Spanish, it MAY be an error. First, I may pick examples, subconciously, that tend to "prove my point".

In addition, is it possible we see the strongest connections between the languages we know best? Your strongest language is Spanish. So if you are comparing German to English and Spanish, wouldn't it be natural to see more connections with your first language and German?

For the same reason, I suspect I would tend to think Spanish is closer to English than to French, and closer to German than French. (But this is not so! I am thinking out loud, and as I consider what I just said, that has not been my impression.) Well, let me see if I can find a couple examples in four languages. 

Gaer


----------



## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> O.K. I'd like that.


Outside, if you'll skim what I just wrote to Art, you have my best idea at the moment. I'll try to find things. I myself don't know what results there will be, or what conclusions we might draw. 

Gaer


----------



## Artrella

gaer said:
			
		

> Art, I can look for examples in the book I've been working with, Le Petit Prince. It is the only book I found on line in al four languages: Geramn, English, Spanish and French. But if I pick lines that seem to show German is closer to English than Spanish, it MAY be an error. First, I may pick examples, subconciously, that tend to "prove my point".
> 
> Gaer




Yes, it is possible that we tend to do that.
But take this facts into account:

1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words).  But they are in Spanish.

For instance, you have in German dich, dir.  In Spanish you have ti, te.  In English you only have "you"

*I * give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
*Te* doy un libro a *tí.*

Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.

Diese Buch ist für* dich*


2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives.  They are differentiated in German and in Spanish.  Not in English.

eg,

*My * book/books/mother/father/siblings
*The * book/books/mother/father/siblings
*A * car/woman
*Some* cars/women

Mein Buch - mein*e* Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister 
*das* Buch - *die* Bücher- die Mutter - *der* Vater -*die * Geschwister
Ein Mann - ein*e* Frau - ein Auto 
einige Autos -einige Frauen

Mi libro-Mi*s* libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
*el * libro- *los* libros-*la * madre-el padre-los hermanos
*un * hombre-*una* mujer-un auto-
Algun*o*s autos- Algun*a*s mujeres

3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish

*>>>* Präsens  
Indikativ Konjunktiv  
ich  dusche / ich  dusche  

*>>>* Präteritum  
Indikativ Konjunktiv II 
ich  duschte / ich  duschte  

*>>> *  Perfekt 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I 
ich habe  geduscht  /ich  habe  geduscht  

*>>> * Plusquamperfekt 
Indikativ Konjunktiv II 
ich  hatte  geduscht  ich  hätte  geduscht  

*>>> *  Imperativ

*>>>*  Futur I 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II 
ich  werde  duschen/  ich  werde  duschen / ich  würde   duschen  

*>>> *  Futur II 
Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II 
ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  würde   geduscht haben  

In Spanish    conjugations 


So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar.


----------



## alc112

Artrella said:
			
		

> *I *give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
> *Te* doy un libro a *tí.*
> 
> Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.
> 
> Diese Buch ist für* dich*


 
Me confunde un poco la oración en alemán
Hasta lo que sé, Sein es el unico verbo que usa nominativo, los demás no lo usan (o creo que haben por ahi se lo usa)
¿Por qué usas acusativo si está Sein?
Acaso las preposiciones les ganan a los verbos?

the german sentence confuses me a bit.
As far as i know, Sein is the only one verb that use nomminativ, the rest don't (or i think haben use it too)
why do you use akusativ if Sein is the sentence?
Do the prepositions win against verbs?

Gracias
Feel free to correct my translation


----------



## Artrella

> *alc112*
> Me confunde un poco la oración en alemán
> Hasta lo que sé, Sein es el unico verbo que usa nominativo, los demás no lo usan (o creo que haben por ahi se lo usa)
> ¿Por qué usas acusativo si está Sein?
> Acaso las preposiciones les ganan a los verbos?


*SIIIII*  No en todos los casos pero en el caso de * für-durch-gegen-ohne* IMMER AKKUSATIV
These prepositions *always* take DATIV >> *mit-zu-bei-seit-nach-aus-von*


> the German sentence confuses me a bit.
> As far as i know, Sein is the only one verb that useS nomminativ, the rest don't (or i think haben useS it too)
> why do you use akKusativ if YOU ARE USING Sein in the sentence?
> Do the prepositions win against   verbs?


  I'm not sure if it is *win against * or *over* >>  Maybe *Gaer* can help us

 

Gracias
Feel free to correct my translation[/QUOTE]


----------



## alc112

Gracias Art. !!!!
Algunos ejemplos?


----------



## gaer

Art, for simplicity, your comments in blue, with italics:

_But take these facts into account:_

_1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words). But there are in Spanish. (Or they are marked......... in Spanish.)_

_For instance, you have in German dich, dir. In Spanish you have ti, te. In English you only have "you"._

This is a good point, and this is a way German, French and Spanish are all alike, I think.

But we HAD "thou". Thou hast. The informal form has been lost or is now archaic. 

_I give you a book / this book is for you
Te doy un libro a tí._

Why this: Te doy un libro a tí.

_Ich gebe dir ein Buch._
_Dieses Buch ist für dich_

If your point is that "dir" often must be translated with "to you", I agree.

_2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives. They are differentiated in German and in Spanish. Not in English._

_eg,_

_My book/books/mother/father/siblings
The book/books/mother/father/siblings
A car/woman
Some cars/women_

_Mein Buch - meine Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister 
das Buch - die Bücher- die Mutter - der Vater -die Geschwister
Ein Mann - eine Frau - ein Auto 
einige Autos -einige Frauen_

_Mi libro-Mis libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
el libro- los libros-la madre-el padre-los hermanos
un hombre-una mujer-un auto-
Algunos autos- Algunas mujeres_

Okay. Here I totally agree with you. In fact, in this area, German was very useful to help me understand Spanish and French. English is all but useless here. So I agree.

_3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish._

Here I want to point out that everything you mention has to do with subjuntive. Most subjunctive forms do not exist in English. The exist in Spanish, French and German. Again, I agree with you.

_ich hatte geduscht ich hätte geduscht_ 

HERE we have something you may not know about. In the dependent clause, we can do ths same thing in English, but not in the next part…

Hätte ich das getan, dann hätte ich…
Had I done that, then I would have…

_So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar._

I agree with you. The subjunctive forms are less complicated than they appear though, in German. As you learn more, I'll explain why. Most of the subjuntive forms that are used are very similar to English. The exception—and this is HUGE—is what might be called the "present tense subjunctive", which is so often used in reporting.

Art, you have raised SO many points here. A BOOK could be written about what you just mentioned. I totally agree with you, but I have another view. It does not contradict anything you said, it just highlights different parts of German. I'll try very hard to illustrate, if I can!

Gaer


----------



## alc112

Te doy un libro a tí
"A tí" can be taken out. she put the whole sentence. You wouldn't listen to a spanish speaker saying "te doy el libro a tí" if he/she is talking with you only. He/ she would say A tí when there are more than 1 person with her/his.


----------



## alc112

Tell us about the question
"do prepositions win against verbs?"
Is the questioon correct? (just hte question, Art. has already answered it)
Thanks


----------



## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Te doy un libro a tí
> "A tí" can be taken out. she put the whole sentence. You wouldn't listen to a spanish speaker saying "te doy el libro a tí" if he/she is talking with you only. He/ she would say A tí when there are more than 1 person with her/his.


 
Well, I'm confused. I understand VERY little Spanish!

Gaer


----------



## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Tell us about the question
> "do prepositions win against verbs?"
> Is the questioon correct? (just hte question, Art. has already answered it)
> Thanks


Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if prepositions are more like English?

Gaer


----------



## alc112

gaer said:
			
		

> Hmm. I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if prepositions are more like English?
> 
> Gaer


Hi!
No.
don't worry i have asked in GV forum

I meant:
Prepositions Vs verbs   Who wins?
What do you think I should have put, against, over or versus in my question?


----------



## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Hi!
> No.
> don't worry i have asked in GV forum
> 
> I meant:
> Prepositions Vs verbs Who wins?
> What do you think I should have put, against, over or versus in my question?


 
Prepositions vs. verbs. WHICH ones win?

This is ONE solution. 

Gaer


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## alc112

gaer said:
			
		

> Prepositions vs. verbs. WHICH ones win?
> 
> This is ONE solution.
> 
> Gaer


 
Thanks gaer, i didn't realize

you're misunderstanding me I meant
Do prepositions win __________ verbs?
What preposition would you use in the question above?


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## gaer

alc112 said:
			
		

> Thanks gaer, i didn't realize
> 
> you're misunderstanding me I meant
> Do prepositions win __________ verbs?
> What preposition would you use in the question above?


 
Okay. There I think you could say:

Do prepositions win over verbs? But there there is a potential problem:

"Win over" is an idiom, and it means "convince".

TO EVERYONE:

After looking at some setences in four languages, I am totally mixed up. It still appears to me that French and Spanish are very similar. English seems very different from both. And German I absolutely can NOT judge, because it is so natural to me, it just seems right. 

For tonight I give up. Maybe tomorrow…

Gaer


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## nmgadb

Wow, this thread has traveled far.  That'll teach me to spend all day making an intake manifold, now I have to stay up late to read all of the responses.  For me, the main purpose in starting this thread was to find some of the connections between german and english.  I think we could talk forever about how each language relates to another, or a group of languages.  Next I'll need help learning how to pronounce the words I'm learning...I'll probably just listen to music to help with that.  Well, I think I'm rambling now so good night.
-Nath


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> I give you a book / this book is for you
> Te doy un libro a tí.
> 
> Why this: Te doy un libro a tí.


The sentence _Te doy un libro *a tí*_ emphasises the receiver of the book, _tú_, by repeating the personal pronoun.

As alc112 says, the second pronoun phrase, _a tí_, can be omitted.

This can be done in French, too, by the way: "Je te donne le livre *à toi*". But not in English, as far as I m aware.


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## Outsider

Artrella said:
			
		

> But take this facts into account:
> 
> 1) Several cases (nominativ-akkusativ-genitiv-dativ) >>> in English this differences are not morphologically marked (i.e.there's no difference in the way you write words).  But they are in Spanish.


  Traditional grammars do not describe Spanish as a language with cases, either. 
But let's look at your examples...



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> For instance, you have in German dich, dir.  In Spanish you have ti, te.  In English you only have "you"
> 
> *I * give *you* a book / this book is for *you*
> *Te* doy un libro a *tí.*
> 
> Ich gebe *dir* ein Buch.
> 
> Diese Buch ist für* dich*


That's correct, as far as it goes, but now consider "he" instead of "you". You also say "I give *him* a book" in English, not "I give he a book".

So, you see, personal pronouns can change in English, too. 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> 2) Gender and number in definite and non definite articles, possessive pronouns and adjectives.  They are differentiated in German and in Spanish.  Not in English.
> eg,
> 
> *My * book/books/mother/father/siblings
> *The * book/books/mother/father/siblings
> *A * car/woman
> *Some* cars/women
> 
> Mein Buch - mein*e* Bücher - meine Mutter- mein Vater - meine Geschwister
> *das* Buch - *die* Bücher- die Mutter - *der* Vater -*die * Geschwister
> Ein Mann - ein*e* Frau - ein Auto
> einige Autos -einige Frauen
> 
> Mi libro-Mi*s* libros- Mi madre- mi padre- mis hermanos
> *el * libro- *los* libros-*la * madre-el padre-los hermanos
> *un * hombre-*una* mujer-un auto-
> Algun*o*s autos- Algun*a*s mujeres


This much is true. However, ancient English had these kinds of declensions as well. They have been simplified and lost.



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> 3) Many tenses that don't appear in English and that appear in Spanish
> 
> *>>>* Präsens
> Indikativ Konjunktiv
> ich  dusche / ich  dusche


Technically, English has a present subjunctive as well, although it tends not to be used in informal speech, and (again, because of simplifications occurred throughout the history of English) it does not vary much with respect to the indicative present tense:

he showers / (that) he *shower* 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> *>>>* Präteritum
> Indikativ Konjunktiv II
> ich  duschte / ich  duschte


I was / (if) I were 

Simplifications have made it indistinguishable from the indicative in other English verbs, but you can still tell the difference in the irregular verb "to be". 



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> *>>>*  Futur I
> Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II
> ich  werde  duschen/  ich  werde  duschen / ich  würde   duschen
> 
> *>>> *  Futur II
> Indikativ Konjunktiv I Konjunktiv II
> ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  werde  geduscht haben / ich  würde   geduscht haben


Notice, however, that the future is a simple tense in Spanish, but a compound (auxiliary verb + main verb) in both English and German.  



			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> So far, and since I have just started learning German, these are the facts that make me think that German has more similarities with Spanish than with English, at least in Grammar.


The complexity of German verb conjugation resembles that of Spanish more than the extremely simple verb conjugation of English, that's true. On the other hand, you will find precious few (if any) Indo-European languages with a verb conjugation as simple as English.


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> The sentence _Te doy un libro *a tí*_ emphasises the receiver of the book, _tú_, by repeating the personal pronoun.
> 
> As alc112 says, the second pronoun phrase, _a tí_, can be omitted.
> 
> This can be done in French, too, by the way: "Je te donne le livre *à toi*". But not in English, as far as I m aware.


Okay. Each language has a kind of "useful redundancy". Although most of the time, repeating something is not necessary, it adds emphasis or color to what we say.

I also can't think of an example where the kind of thing you just mentioned is done in German.

Thanks for the explanation!

Gaer


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Traditional grammars do not describe Spanish as a language with cases, either.
> But let's look at your examples...
> 
> 
> That's correct, as far as it goes, but now consider "he" instead of "you". You also say "I give *him* a book" in English, not "I give he a book".
> 
> So, you see, personal pronouns can change in English, too.
> 
> 
> This much is true. However, ancient English had these kinds of declensions as well. They have been simplified and lost.
> 
> 
> Technically, English has a present subjunctive as well, although it tends not to be used in informal speech, and (again, because of simplifications occurred throughout the history of English) it does not vary much with respect to the indicative present tense:
> 
> he showers / (that) he *shower*
> 
> 
> I was / (if) I were
> 
> Simplifications have made it indistinguishable from the indicative in other English verbs, but you can still tell the difference in the irregular verb "to be".
> 
> 
> Notice, however, that the future is a simple tense in Spanish, but a compound (auxiliary verb + main verb) in both English and German.
> 
> 
> The complexity of German verb conjugation resembles that of Spanish more than the extremely simple verb conjugation of English, that's true. On the other hand, you will find precious few (if any) Indo-European languages with a verb conjugation as simple as English.


Outside, I am aware of the things you mentioned, but they get so complicated!

On a simpler and more useful note, I have found German to be much more useful than English in helping me understand how French and Spanish work.

And yet German still feels more like English to me than these other languages, and right now I'm trying to figure out why. Perhaps, among other things, it's because there are so many idioms that English and German share, and I'm not sure that is true of English and French, or English and Spanish.

It's SO confusing!

Gaer


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## Outsider

Maybe it comes down to the fact that English is a somewhat exceptional language among Indo-European languages, in that its inflection and its conjugation have been drastically reduced. However, that did not change the core vocabulary or other aspects of grammar.

Think of Latin and Romance languages. People have told me that Latin is like German, because both have declensions, while most Romance languages have not. Yet, it's quite clear that Latin is closer to any Romance language than German.


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## beigatti

Es ist fast einen Monat her seit dem ich irgendetwas geschrieben habe.  

English and German are very similar in many ways.  If I were to dust off my old linguistic books and my mittlehochdeutsch textbooks from 1,000 years ago, I could tell you what happened during the first Lautverschiebung and the second.  I can remember a few things:

Just looking at consonants:

From German to English, "T" became "D"
Be*tt* ---> Be*d*
*T*ür ---> *D*oor
Lau*t* ---> lou*d*

"Pf" or "f" became "P"

*Pf*e*ff*er ---> *p*e*pp*er
Lau*f* --->  lo*p*e
*Pf*ei*f*e ---> *p*i*p*e

"cht" became "ght"

acht ---> eight
fracht ---> freight
macht ---> might

I find it fascinating.

Jo-Ann


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## gaer

Outsider said:
			
		

> Maybe it comes down to the fact that English is a somewhat exceptional language among Indo-European languages, in that its inflection and its conjugation have been drastically reduced. However, that did not change the core vocabulary or other aspects of grammar.
> 
> Think of Latin and Romance languages. People have told me that Latin is like German, because both have declensions, while most Romance languages have not. Yet, it's quite clear that Latin is closer to any Romance language than German.


Man, I don't even know what "declension" means. In addition, Latin was not taught in school here. I've mentioned elsewhere that that teaching of languages that HAVE been taught in this area of the US has been pathetic.. But I'll tell you one thing that fascinates me, and that is that languages work just fine without things that other languages consider essential. Consider Japanese, which has no plurals, no articles has no conjugations in the manner of European languages.

Where I see a striking relationship between German and English is certain verbs froms, such as trink-, trank, getrunken. Sitzen/setzen follow the same pattern as sit/sit, and liegen/legen likewise. Unfortunately, I used to know much more about these things, because I NEEDED to know them to figure out what I was reading in German. Once I began reading fluently, I forgot all the rules that I once needed and started going on autopilot. 

Gaer


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## gaer

beigatti said:
			
		

> Es ist fast einen Monat her seit dem ich irgendetwas geschrieben habe.
> 
> English and German are very similar in many ways. If I were to dust off my old linguistic books and my mittlehochdeutsch textbooks from 1,000 years ago, I could tell you what happened during the first Lautverschiebung and the second. I can remember a few things:
> 
> Just looking at consonants:
> 
> From German to English, "T" became "D"
> Be*tt* ---> Be*d*
> *T*ür ---> *D*oor
> Lau*t* ---> lou*d*
> 
> "Pf" or "f" became "P"
> 
> *Pf*e*ff*er ---> *p*e*pp*er
> Lau*f* ---> lo*p*e
> *Pf*ei*f*e ---> *p*i*p*e
> 
> "cht" became "ght"
> 
> acht ---> eight
> fracht ---> freight
> macht ---> might
> 
> I find it fascinating.
> 
> Jo-Ann


Jo-Ann,

You just made it clear what I sense, subconsciously. More please, if you have the info!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

beigatti said:
			
		

> "cht" became "ght"
> 
> acht ---> eight
> fracht ---> freight
> macht ---> might
> 
> I find it fascinating.
> 
> Jo-Ann



Hallo erst einmal Jo-Ann,

es ist schön, mal wieder etwas von dir zu hören.

But what about
Yacht ---> yacht ???


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## beigatti

Yacht ist ein relativ neues Wort.  


Die erste Lautverschiebung entstand 1000 v.Chr bis ungefaer 300 v.Chr.

Die zweite Lautverschiebung war spaeter...um 500 n Chr.


Jo-Ann


----------



## Whodunit

beigatti said:
			
		

> Yacht ist ein relativ neues Wort.
> 
> 
> Die erste Lautverschiebung entstand 1000 v.Chr bis ungefaer 300 v.Chr.
> 
> Die zweite Lautverschiebung war spaeter...um 500 n Chr.
> 
> 
> Jo-Ann



Okay, da muss ich zugeben, zu diesen Zeiten gab es noch keine "Jacht".


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## Outsider

gaer said:
			
		

> Jo-Ann,
> 
> You just made it clear what I sense, subconsciously. More please, if you have the info!
> 
> [...]
> 
> Where I see a striking relationship between German and English is certain verbs froms, such as trink-, trank, getrunken. Sitzen/setzen follow the same pattern as sit/sit, and liegen/legen likewise.


That's the famous consonant shift of High German.
 German-English cognate sound shifts.
 English and German



			
				gaer said:
			
		

> Man, I don't even know what "declension" means. In addition, Latin was not taught in school here. I've mentioned elsewhere that that teaching of languages that HAVE been taught in this area of the US has been pathetic..


Declension (or inflection) is when a word changes according to its syntactic function in a sentence. For instance, in English, the pronoun "he" is used as a subject, but it changes to "him" when it's an object, "his" when it's a possessive, and "himself" when it's a reflexive pronoun (both subject and object). This is analogous to verb conjugation, whereby a verb changes according to its subject.

But in contemporary English this is limited to a small number of pronouns, so you don't need to think in terms of the general concept of declension to learn them. In Latin, all nouns and adjectives change according to their syntactic function; declension is an essential feature of the language. Most Romance languages have about as little declension as English, but German still has some declensions, from what I understand.



			
				gaer said:
			
		

> But I'll tell you one thing that fascinates me, and that is that languages work just fine without things that other languages consider essential. Consider Japanese, which has no plurals, no articles has no conjugations in the manner of European languages.


On the other hand, Japanese has a large number of honorific forms of addressing, without any match in European languages... 
 Japanese honorifics.


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## Artrella

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages]  [URL=http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/oe-ie.html]  indo european languages 3 sites    [/URL] [/URL]


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## Outsider

A little about Old English. Notice how it had genders and cases (declensions)!


----------



## Artrella

Outsider said:
			
		

> A little about Old English. Notice how it had genders and cases (declensions)!




Yes!! It had declensions!! I didn't know that... Good link Outsider!  
Now we have to find the "mother language"... it seems that all languages come from the same language...this is the linguists' job...


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## JLanguage

English is not a very inflexional language. As I continue to learn Hebrew I find more and more evidence of inflexion's central importance in Hebrew grammar. This is especially true of Latin, everything changes based on it's position in the language. To me inflexion/lack of inflexion, is a double-edged sword while inflexion can aid comprehension, it can also lead to overly complex grammatical rules that hinder assimilation and comprehension of a language.


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## gaer

I now know what "declension" means, because I looked it up when I got home. And it's a great deal of what makes German so terribly difficult to write. 

I can only imagine that Latin must be a problem to write. 

By the way, the honorifics in Japanese are truly a nightmare. It's like taking the formal/informal address in European languages and making it all about 1000 times more complicated.

The only point I was trying to make is that we think we need the things that are in our own languages.

Look at these sentences:

I look for new posts each day.
I look for my book before work, but I could not find it. (It must be "looked".)
I have look everywhere for an answer to my questions. (It must be "looked".)

This looks and is illiterate, right?

But:
I set the table each day. (present)
I set the table yesterday. (past)
I have set the table every day this week. (present perfect)

Suddenly this is perfectly correct English, and we hear nothing wrong with this. ALL verbs could be like this, logically, in English. In the same way, you could remove all articles and use other clues to make the sense clear. It's simply an interesting thing to think about. What part of language do we NEED, and what part do we simply use because it is "the way it's always been". 

Gaer


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## lightarch

Geography may help rather than history. English is a North Sea language,  largely a language of mariners and deep sea fisher folk and trade. Romance languages are of a different sea the Mediterranean, Mare Nostum, based on the speech of soldiers rather than lawyers or churchmen, cultivated by farmers, . And of course Shakespeare.


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