# Cities with the same name, and other city-related matters



## merquiades

JamesM said:


> Americans are often ridiculed for their geographical ignorance but we are not alone in this, either.  I remember a teacher whose European relative was coming to visit her in Idaho.  She wanted to be picked up in Denver (1,340 km), swing by the Grand Canyon (1,118 km) and San Francisco (1,269 km) on the way back to Boise (1,026 km).   She couldn't understand why this would be a problem, since all of these locations were in the western U.S.



Yes, American geography is also a problem for the French.  Ohio, Iowa, Idaho... the same.  They're often confused even on tv.  Or you get Ohiowa, Ohidaho, Idowa.  Skiing in the mountains of Washington DC.


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## JeanDeSponde

Geography seems to be a difficult matter in the US too, as Americans think that Belgium is part of France (hence _French fries_)


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## merquiades

JeanDeSponde said:


> Geography seems to be a difficult matter in the US too, as Americans think that Belgium is part of France (hence _French fries_)



No, but isn't it France that's part of Belgium?


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## WME

merquiades said:


> Yes, American geography is also a problem for the French.  Ohio, Iowa, Idaho... the same.  They're often confused even on tv.  Or you get Ohiowa, Ohidaho, Idowa.  Skiing in the mountains of Washington DC.



Americans have to reckon that calling sometimes a dozen cities the same name across the States does not make it easy  
Wonder why Matt Groening chose to have the Simpsons live in Springfield ?


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## Hulalessar

WME said:


> Americans have to reckon that calling sometimes a dozen cities the same name across the States does not make it easy



Agreed. However, Americans ought to be aware that saying "London, England" or "Paris, France" when speaking to Europeans can come over as highly condescending.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Hulalessar said:


> Agreed. However, Americans ought to be aware that saying "London, England" or "Paris, France" when speaking to Europeans can come over as highly condescending.



And why might that be?


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## merquiades

WME said:


> Americans have to reckon that calling sometimes a dozen cities the same name across the States does not make it easy
> Wonder why Matt Groening chose to have the Simpsons live in Springfield ?



There are place names repeating all over France too.  Montigny, Mont, Saint names etc.

In America there can't be more than one place with the same name in one given state.  People named their towns the way they wanted.  It's hard to come up with an original name for five billion towns.  So they named them after places in Europe, sometimes where the settlers originated from, or famous people. I don't know what the origin of Springfield is but it gives allusion to some kind of small town in middle America with whatever kind of culture and take on life that entails.


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## berndf

Pedro y La Torre said:


> And why might that be?


Because it is perceived to imply you are so stupid you don't know where where London and Paris are.

Additions, which are normally geographical descriptions and not country names, are only used with frequently confused typonyms and then they are spelled out, like _Newcastle-upon-Tyne_ or _Frankfurt am Main_.

Although I know perfectly well where it comes from I still can't help it feeling offended when, e.g., I see in an American film the skyline of Paris with the Eifel-Tower and a subtitle _Paris, France_.


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## Pedro y La Torre

I can't say I have ever felt even the slightest bit offended when an American specified Paris, France or London, England; as anyone familiar with North American geography should know, there are any number of Paris' and Londons in America thus the addition makes perfect sense; but to each his own.

Now, when continental Europeans are under the impression that Ireland is part of England, or Latvia is somewhere in Russia, I'm a little less forgiving.


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## berndf

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I can't say I have ever felt even the slightest bit offended when an American specified Paris, France or London, England; as anyone familiar with North American geography should know, there are any number of Paris' and Londons in America thus the addition makes perfect sense; but to each his own.


You are probably a few decades of American cultural influence ahead of us.





Pedro y La Torre said:


> Now, when continental Europeans are under the impression that Ireland is part of England, or Latvia is somewhere in Russia, I'm a little less forgiving.


Who would do such a thing?


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## LilianaB

berndf said:


> Because it is perceived to imply you are so stupid you don't know where where London and Paris are.
> 
> Additions, which are normally geographical descriptions and not country names, are only used with frequently confused typonyms and then they are spelled out, like _Newcastle-upon-Tyne_ or _Frankfurt am Main_.
> 
> Although I know perfectly well where it comes from I still can't help it feeling offended when, e.g., I see in an American film the skyline of Paris with the Eifel-Tower and a subtitle _Paris, France_.



There are many places called Paris, Moscow, Warsaw in the United States -- this might be the reason. The Eifel Tower- that might be different, although who knows -- many things are created in Hollywood and Disneyland, so someone may still have doubts where the film is taking place.


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## JeanDeSponde

merquiades said:


> There are place names repeating all over France too.  Montigny, Mont, Saint names etc.


Technically speaking, town & village names are all different — Montigny-le-Bretonneux, Montigny-en-Morvan, Montigny-lès-Cormeilles etc.

Now, saying _London, England_ in Europe to a European is less informative than, although as accurate as, _traduit de l'américain..._


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## merquiades

It comes from there being confusion if eg. the Charleston you are talking about is in Massachusetts, South Carolina or Virginia....  So at some point people started routinely giving cities a first and a last name.  That became compulsory when sending mail.  So for many people, Paris is naked without the France attached to it with a comma. Even if there is an Eiffel Tower in the shot. They'll even do it with cities that don't have an equivalent in America, like Bratislava, Slovakia (I don't think that one exists).  It's not about offending or not knowing either.  It's habit.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> There are many places called Paris, Moscow, Warsaw in the United States -- this might be the reason. The Eifel Tower- that might be different, although who knows -- many things are created in Hollywood and Disneyland, so someone may still have doubts where the film is taking place.





merquiades said:


> It comes from there being confusion if eg. the Charleston you are talking about is in Massachusetts, South Carolina or Virginia.... So at some point people started routinely giving cities a first and a last name. That became compulsory when sending mail. So for many people, Paris is naked without the France attached to it with a comma. Even if there is an Eiffel Tower in the shot. They'll even do it with cities that don't have an equivalent in America, like Bratislava, Slovakia (I don't think that one exists). It's not about offending or not knowing either. It's habit.


As I said, I perfectly well know where it comes from. Yet the emotional reaction exists.


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## NewtonCircus

berndf said:


> Who would do such a thing?


Lots of people. Many believe that whatever you yourself know about a place or your own country for that matter, others should know as well. That is simply not the case.


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## merquiades

NewtonCircus said:


> Berndf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who would do such a thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of people. Many believe that whatever you yourself know about a place or your own country for that matter, others should know as well. That is simply not the case.
Click to expand...


I find that a lot of people in France don't know much at all about Eastern European geography, culture, society, history.  The farther east you go the less they know. Not so for Ireland.  I think no one would say it's part of Britain. Western and Southern Europe is well known.


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## Pedro y La Torre

merquiades said:


> I find that a lot of people in France don't know much at all about Eastern European geography, culture, society, history.  The farther east you go the less they know. Not so for Ireland.  I think no one would say it's part of Britain. Western and Southern Europe is well known.



Oh, you'd be surprised M. Fully agree about Eastern Europe.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> I find that a lot of people in France don't know much at all about Eastern European geography, culture, society, history.  The farther east you go the less they know. Not so for Ireland.  I think no one would say it's part of Britain. Western and Southern Europe is well known.


In my experience, those people who don't know that Lithuania isn't a part of Russia don't know that Lithuania exist and what it might be in the first place and the problem doesn't arise.


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## L'irlandais

Gentlemen,
That some ignorant people in France (or any other country for that matter) know little of Eastern European geography, I accept.  (However I suspect perhaps neither of you are aware of how much business is done by French Entrepreneurs in Eastern Europe.  ) It's wrong to generalise!  Berndf is right in saying it's a non-problem, since such people are ignorant of many, many things.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> In my experience, those people who don't know that Lithuania isn't a part of Russia don't know that Lithuania exist and what it might be in the first place and the problem doesn't arise.



Not always, Berndf.  I know people who otherwise are very learned and might even be teachers, lawyers, doctors who vaguely have heard of places like Lithuania but don't care enough to know anymore.  How many times have I heard  Lithuanie-Lettonie whatever!  Slovaquie, Slovénie which is which?  Rom- Romanian is the same no, close? One of those places. Can't they make their names different enough? Eastern Europe except probably Poland and Russian is dismissed as irrelevant.
No, fortunately I'm not talking about all people, and I'm sure lots of trade is done with the East, it is widespread though.
By the way, try to get them to name the capitals.  That's a fun experience.


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## Ёж!

merquiades said:


> By the way, try to get them to name the capitals.


I'd be lost.  I mean, I'd name the capitals of Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czechia and Greece correctly from the top of my mind, but the rest is hard.


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## merquiades

Ёж! said:


> I'd be lost.  I mean, I'd name the capitals of Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Bulgaria, Czechia and Greece correctly from the top of my mind, but the rest is hard.


What?  Reallly? But that's your back yard and sphere of influence.


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## Ёж!

With all my (irrational?) hope that the 'spheres of influence' will sometime become an attribute of the sorrow past, I can't but tell that even in the times of USSR geographical incompetence of Soviet people was a subject for jokes. The name of the song by Vysotsky can be imprecisely translated as 'How to travel abroad', and the 'instructor' constantly confuses the location of the Budapest city: first, it is in Poland, then in Hungary, then in Bulgaria. The person who travels first calls the country (correctly) Bulgaria, then he uses the name of Bangladesh. Considering the difficulties of the travel, he even thinks of refusing the trip: 'But then, I won't go in Ulan Bator to the Poles!', but his wife convinces him not to.


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## Outsider

I've noticed the construction "Paris, France"/"London, England", too, and it does sound peculiar to my ears, but not offensive. It's perfectly understandable from the American perspective. There are indeed American cities with identical names, though I wonder if this is the full explanation. After all, those American cities are all fairly obscure. I think there may be another factor at play here: Americans are used to attaching state names to the names of American cities (and to the names of politicians), as in Cleveland, Ohio, or Austin, Texas. Perhaps they've simply extended this local habit to European cities, with the country, quite naturally, taking the place of the state.

As a curiosity, and a disclaimer, there is at least one expression of this kind in Portuguese, _Viena de Áustria _(Vienna of Austria), I suppose to distinguish it from the Portuguese city of Viana do Castelo, even though Viana and Viena aren't even homophones. I admit that I do find it a bit grating sometimes.


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## Nanon

Out, I must say that "Lisbon, Portugal" is slightly more irritating than "Paris, France" to my ears. But there are many Lisbons in the US. Even more than Paris, apparently.
That must be because of Wim Wender's "Paris, Texas" .



merquiades said:


> By the way, try to get them to name the capitals.  That's a fun experience.


You can quiz me on European (East and West) and Latin American capitals any time, but please don't ask about US state capitals!


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## Outsider

Nanon said:


> But there are many Lisbons in the US. Even more than Paris, apparently.


Good point. That probably explains why Americans add the state to the names of less well-known cities. 

P.S. Decades ago I knew the names of all European capitals and their spelling in the local official languages, but I confess that I lost track after the fall of the Berlin Wall and everything that followed.


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## funnyhat

Even major U.S. cities can get the "city, state" treatment.  TV shows will sometimes say "Los Angeles, California,"  "Seattle, Washington" and so on, even when no one would be confused.  It's just a pretty standard practice and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not the audience is familiar with the place.


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## merquiades

I think in the US a city is just seen as naked without a last name attached.  There is no reason for New York, New York or Mexico City, Mexico or Singapore, Singapore etc. but they are usually present.


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## Nanon

Then learners of US English should say "When in Rome, Italy, do as the Romans do", shouldn't they?  Just joking.


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## merquiades

Nanon said:


> Then learners of US English should say "When in Rome, Italy, do as the Romans do", shouldn't they?  Just joking.



Lol   So in Rome, Georgia you can do whatever you please!

In France a lot of towns, neighborhoods have been given the same name, so there is this habit of putting _lès_ like _Villeneuve-lès-Avignon_, _Villeneuve-lès-Rouen_, _Montigny-lès-Vesoul_, _Montigny-lès-Cormeille__s_, _Montigny-lès-Arsures_.  How about Paris-lès-Texas?


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## Hulalessar

It is a fact that in the US cities often get the binomial treatment when first referred to. It is accordingly not surprising if this is extended to places outside the US where the state in the US is replaced by the country. I was not suggesting that that is _actually_ condescending, but that those unaware of the practice within the US may _perceive_ it to be condescending or in any event find it irritating. So, if you are a US citizen in the US and say you are flying to Paris, France that is fine; however, it is probably better not to say that if you are in England.


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## Nanon

merquiades said:


> How about Paris-lès-Texas?


ROFL  Sounds posh and somewhat un-Texan. But _lès _means _close to_, so it should be Paris-lès-Houston or something like that (I didn't check the map) .

Still, I think there may be a couple of exceptions to the city + state rule. Do Americans really say Beijing, China? Or Peking, China? (Is there any US city with a Chinese name using pinyin?)


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## Angelo di fuoco

Nanon, tu sais quelle est etymologie de ce lès?


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## merquiades

Nanon said:


> ROFL  Sounds posh and somewhat un-Texan. But _lès _means _close to_, so it should be Paris-lès-Houston or something like that (I didn't check the map) .
> 
> Still, I think there may be a couple of exceptions to the city + state rule. Do Americans really say Beijing, China? Or Peking, China? (Is there any US city with a Chinese name using pinyin?)



Yes, no city escapes without a last name.

 Ok, in this case Paris-lès-Dallas, Texas.


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## merquiades

Hulalessar said:


> It is a fact that in the US cities often get the binomial treatment when first referred to. It is accordingly not surprising if this is extended to places outside the US where the state in the US is replaced by the country. I was not suggesting that that is _actually_ condescending, but that those unaware of the practice within the US may _perceive_ it to be condescending or in any event find it irritating. So, if you are a US citizen in the US and say you are flying to Paris, France that is fine; however, it is probably better not to say that if you are in England.



Hulalassar, I don't think people would add the last name if they were in London and flying to Paris, unless these people just happen to be from Texas.  Otherwise it has turned into habit and that is probably why you see the Paris, Texas on the screen under the image of the Eiffel Tower.  I suppose in some cases, unfortunately, if you have an image of Astana or Bangui, you really need to put the "last name" because some people might never have heard of the city, or get confused.  That could happen even with US places.  You see an image of Portland... I have no idea if it is Maine or Oregon.


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## Nanon

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Nanon, tu sais quelle est l'etymologie de ce lès?


Je peux même te donner un lien vers un fil du FS (il y en a plusieurs).


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## Angelo di fuoco

Merci, Nannerl.


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## Nanon

Merci pour l'allusion ... you made my day!


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## funnyhat

merquiades said:


> Hulalassar, I don't think people would add the last name if they were in London and flying to Paris, unless these people just happen to be from Texas.  Otherwise it has turned into habit and that is probably why you see the Paris, Texas on the screen under the image of the Eiffel Tower.  I suppose in some cases, unfortunately, if you have an image of Astana or Bangui, you really need to put the "last name" because some people might never have heard of the city, or get confused.  That could happen even with US places.  You see an image of Portland... I have no idea if it is Maine or Oregon.



And the "city name, state/country name" convention is mainly just for writing.  In speaking, people do not typically do this - at least, not for big cities.  If you tell someone you're going to Paris or London, you would not add the country (assuming you're talking about _the_ Paris and London, not their little namesakes in North America).  Even for New York, where there can be ambiguity between the city and state, people will generally say "I'm going to New York" with the implication that they're going to the city.


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## L'irlandais

merquiades said:


> ...In France a lot of towns, neighborhoods have been given the same name, so there is this habit of putting _lès_ like ... _Montigny-lès-Arsures_.  ...


Link in post #234 followed...





> L'étymologie du nom Montigny viendrait de "Mons Ignis" qui signifie mont du feu. De plus, les Arsures signifierait "brûlures". Cette désignation est issue de la vaste incinération des forêts dans le versant du Jura demandé par Louis IX pour établir des cultures sur ces terres.
> 
> Source :  http://www.montigny-les-arsures.fr/la-commune-1-1.htm


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## francisgranada

Pedro y La Torre said:
			
		

> Now, when continental Europeans are under the impression that Ireland is part of England, or Latvia is somewhere in Russia, I'm a little less forgiving.





berndf said:


> Who would do such a thing?


As to Latvia and other countries once belonging to the Soviet Union, it was not uncommon even here (in Czechoslovakia) to think they are part of Russia or not to know almost anything about them, as they where associated with the Soviet Union and the URSS was associated with Russia. So people from these countries were often called Russian by the foreigners as they spoke Russian and came from somewhere in the Soviet Union, i.e. from "Russia"  ...

And also Yugoslavia: here it was quite uncommon to speak about Serbia, Croatia etc. Yugoslavia was seen as a "compact" country, thus many people did not know any details (including the capitals) about the particular federal states.

When speaking e.g. about Germany or Hungary, it's quite easy to "undrestand" what country and nation is meant, but to "decipher" exactly which countries and peoples belong to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" may be a bit more difficult for some people  ...


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## ESustad

berndf said:


> As I said, I perfectly well know where it comes from. Yet the emotional reaction exists.



Do you think that might be because you're seeking offense from Americans, even if it isn't intended?  I've found that certain Europeans assume a high degree of ignorance or loutishness from Americans.  If it doesn't exist, they will construct it, and take offense accordingly.  As an American who speaks fluent French with an ambiguously-foreign accent, I've often been highly bemused by the things people will say in French to me while ignorant of my nationality.


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## JustKate

To me, "Paris, France" and "London, England" (and "Los Angeles, California" and "Indianapolis, Indiana" ) don't imply "You (the listener) aren't smart enough or sophisticated enough to be familiar with Paris, London, Los Angeles, and Indianapolis." What they imply are that "I (the speaker) am not all that familiar with these cities, or for some reason I need to be specific for my own comfort or understanding." They say nothing about the listener and everything about the speaker. I understand that it's difficult to control an emotional response, Berndf, but I think it would be useful for you to think of it this way. There are exceptions, of course, but in almost every case, the speaker says "Paris, France" not for the listener but for himself.


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## merquiades

I agree that some people in Europe like American-bashing.  They will create and exaggerate reasons to take offense just so they can justify their bashing.  I've seen it often. Also some people can claim justified condescension.  Those in this group might snigger and suggest that American cuisine is nothing but McDonald's, education is weak in this or that other subject, some customs are barbarian and corrupt, that it's okay to discount or confuse one state or another (Idaho, Ohio the same) yet... if you dared to say anything close to that about XXXX place in Europe they would tar and feather you on the spot. 
At any rate, people can be awful, but I'm totally sure Berndf doesn't fall into this category.


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## ESustad

While having beers on a terrace in Malaysia years ago, I fell into conversation with a French couple.  They had just been to Vietnam, and fell all over themselves to tell me about the horrible American couple they had met at their hotel in Hanoi.  They checked every box in the stereotype of the Ugly American abroad in their description - loud, monoglot, drunk, completely ignorant.  When I asked this French couple which part of the US their subject was from, they responded "Winnipeg."

I almost snorted beer from my nose.


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## merquiades

ESustad said:


> While having beers on a terrace in Malaysia years ago, I fell into conversation with a French couple.  They had just been to Vietnam, and fell all over themselves to tell me about the horrible American couple they had met at their hotel in Hanoi.  They checked every box in the stereotype of the Ugly American abroad in their description - loud, monoglot, drunk, completely ignorant.  When I asked this French couple which part of the US their subject was from, they responded "Winnipeg."
> 
> I almost snorted beer from my nose.



Ha, Winnipeg!    Had you called them out on it, they might well have said "Same difference."
Yes, sounds familiar!  I have lots of stories like that.  Once I was planning to celebrate Halloween with a friend and we were leaving the store with a bunch of stuff.  Her brother came by and complained:  No.  This is unbearable! We're not going to become Americanized are we!  He then went on to check off those same boxes they always do (uncanny isn't it?)... all the things we will become for getting lollipops and masks. 
Once a German guy was going on about how it was intolerable that people were learning American English... that was going to bring about Armageddon... check off same boxes... and he looked at me for support because he thought I was English....
I've often thought of writing a book about bashing.


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## ESustad

Yeah, any American who has spent significant time abroad has these stories.

My second favorite was riding in the back of a camion from Managua to Masaya, in Nicaragua.  I was slouched down, wearing a sombrero and sunglasses, half-asleep and listening to things.  There was a loudmouth Canadian woman in back with us, who seemed to be an NGO worker.  She went off on a monologue in Spanish to everyone in the truck bed about how the Americans had destroyed Nicaragua, and prescribing hatred for Americans to the Nicas.  When she got out, the guy sitting next to me (with whom I'd quietly chatted before the Canadian clambered aboard) asked me in earnest if Canada and the United States were enemies.

Anyway, I hope they don't shut down this discussion on the vestigial cultural branch.  I don't get access to the new one for several months, and this is my favorite branch of WR.


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## merquiades

ESustad said:


> Yeah, any American who has spent significant time abroad has these stories.
> 
> My second favorite was riding in the back of a camion from Managua to Masaya, in Nicaragua.  I was slouched down, wearing a sombrero and sunglasses, half-asleep and listening to things.  There was a loudmouth Canadian woman in back with us, who seemed to be an NGO worker.  She went off on a monologue in Spanish to everyone in the truck bed about how the Americans had destroyed Nicaragua, and prescribing hatred for Americans to the Nicas.  When she got out, the guy sitting next to me (with whom I'd quietly chatted before the Canadian clambered aboard) asked me in earnest if Canada and the United States were enemies.



I've heard a few Canadians spew venom at Americans too.  
Honestly, that doesn't bother me so much.  I understand the spite. When was the last time you heard Americans talk about Canada in a conversation or even mention anything about it in passing?  I'm guilty of that too.  If I ever consider Canada at all it's Quebec, the only province I have visited, and out of personal affinity.  But Alberta, Newfoundland and Saskatchewan are pretty unknown to me.  On the American TV weather map when a storm goes into Canada it fades to white as if it just disappears.  Maybe you all in Minnesota talk about Canada more often.

Yes, the new one is more extensive.  Given you signed up in September, it'll open up for you on 1 March


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## berndf

JustKate said:


> To me, "Paris, France" and "London, England" (and "Los Angeles, California" and "Indianapolis, Indiana" ) don't imply "You (the listener) aren't smart enough or sophisticated enough to be familiar with Paris, London, Los Angeles, and Indianapolis." What they imply are that "I (the speaker) am not all that familiar with these cities, or for some reason I need to be specific for my own comfort or understanding." They say nothing about the listener and everything about the speaker. I understand that it's difficult to control an emotional response, Berndf, but I think it would be useful for you to think of it this way. There are exceptions, of course, but in almost every case, the speaker says "Paris, France" not for the listener but for himself.


I have thought a bit more about it whar really creates this emotional reaction with me. I think if people said _Paris, Ile de France_, _Rome, Lazio_ or _Munich, Bavaria_ instead of _Paris, France_, _Rome, Italy_ or _Munich, Germany_, it still would sound unfamiliar to me (we usually suffix geographical landmarks rather than state names to avoid ambiguities) but it wouldn't create this irritation. It may be the real issue is that entire nations are equated to one of your states.


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## Nanon

In French, if I really need to distinguish between, let's say, the French city of Vienne and the capital of Austria, I would use a preposition in speech: _Vienne, *en *Autriche_ vs _Vienne, dans l'Isère_, i.e. if the country cannot be made out from context. Suffixation sounds like, erm... filling out forms to me. In writing, we would instinctively separate the city and the country (state, region, department) with parentheses instead of a comma in many cases: _Vienne (Autriche)_ vs _Vienne (Isère)_ or _Vienne (38)_.

Yet, in Spanish, I would say and write  _Mérida, Venezuela_ pretty naturally, to make it clear that I am not referring to _Mérida de Yucatán_ (Mexico) or _Mérida de Extremadura _(Spain). But once said, I would not feel the need to repeat it  - which means that the receiver is more in need of this information than the emitter. Well, bad example. When referring to places in Venezuela, I could also add information about the state when mentioning a toponym for the first time, except that the first place that came to my mind, _Mérida, Estado Mérida,_ sounds pretty redundant .


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## sound shift

More "other city-related matters" than "cities with the same name":

Typical British cock-up: "Nuremburg" instead of "Nuremberg". Presumably it happens because in (British) English we give both "-berg" and "-burg" a neutral vowel, but that's still no excuse.


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## berndf

sound shift said:


> More "other city-related matters" than "cities with the same name":
> 
> Typical British cock-up: "Nuremburg" instead of "Nuremberg". Presumably it happens because in (British) English we give both "-berg" and "-burg" a neutral vowel, but that's still no excuse.


From a German phonological point of view, the missing umlauts are actually a more serious mistake. If you pronounced "N*u*remburg" in German [n*ʊ*ʁəmbʊʁk], people might not understand which city was meant. If you said "N*ü*remburg" or "N*ue*remburg" [n*ʏ*ʁəmbʊʁk] (_ue_ is a spelling variation of _ü_), people probably would.

The third deviation from the German spelling_ Nur*em*burg ~ Nür*n*berg_ is actually ok. The spelling with _-em-_ is a historical local spelling (e.g. here).


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## sound shift

But "Nuremberg" is an anglicised spelling, not a mistake with the German spelling.  Even if we were to spell it "Nueremberg" or "Nüremberg" in English, people's pronunciation wouldn't change, because the vast majority know no German and therefore don't know that _ue _and _ü_ are pronounced /ʏ/.


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## rusita preciosa

I was once in a small shop in Bend, Oregon and the shopkeeper asked where I was from. I replied Moscow and she said "Wow, that's a long* drive* - did you get any snow on the way?". I was quite shocked and didn't know what to say. It turned out she thought I drove from Moscow, Idaho that is about 6-7 hours away by car. 

There was a similar instance about me flying to Birmingham, UK and someone was thinking Birmingham, Alabama, but I can't recall what the conversation was.

I think sometimes it makes sense to give a city the "last name".


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## merquiades

rusita preciosa said:


> I was once in a small shop in Bend, Oregon and the shopkeeper asked where I was from. I replied Moscow and she said "Wow, that's a long* drive* - did you get any snow on the way?". I was quite shocked and didn't know what to say. It turned out she thought I drove from Moscow, Idaho that is about 6-7 hours away by car.
> 
> There was a similar instance about me flying to Birmingham, UK and someone was thinking Birmingham, Alabama, but I can't recall what the conversation was.
> 
> I think sometimes it makes sense to give a city the "last name".



Well,  I guess, in theory, it is possible to drive to Oregon from Russia, by way of Siberia, Alaska and Canada. That is a LONG drive with snow


----------



## francisgranada

Sometimes I hear on Slovak tv or I read in articles "v maďarskej Budapešti", "v poľskej Varšave" etc... , that is "in Hungarian Budapest", "in Polish Varsaw" and similars. There are some cities with these names in the USA (not with Slovak orthography, of course), but in this case it's surely not the reason. Have you encountered something similar in your language/country?


----------



## berndf

In German media journalist try to supply additional information in a "by the way" fashion in subsequent sentences. E.g. in an article about, say, Kuala Lumpur they would refer to the city in one sentence as "Kuala Lumpur", in the next sentence as "die malaysische Hauptstadt" ("the Malaysian capital") and in a third sentence as "die Sechs-Millionen-Stadt" ("the six million inhabitants city"). In German it is considered bad style to repeat the same word in close by sentences and this way they try to kill two birds with one stone: avoid repetition of the name _Kuala Lumpur_ and inject some background information. I guess this is supposed to be extremely subtle but when all the media do this it gets annoying. What drives me up the wall is that at some point in an article they _have to_ (must be some kind of a obsessive–compulsive disorder affecting the entire profession) refer to people solely by his/her age ("der 60-Jährige sagte unserem Reporter..." - "the 60 years old told our reporter...").


----------



## merquiades

berndf said:


> In German media journalist try to supply additional information in a "by the way" fashion in subsequent sentences. E.g. in an article about, say, Kuala Lumpur they would refer to the city in one sentence as "Kuala Lumpur", in the next sentence as "die malaysische Hauptstadt" ("the Malaysian capital") and in a third sentence as "die Sechs-Millionen-Stadt" ("the six million inhabitants city"). In German it is considered bad style to repeat the same word in close by sentences and this way they try to kill two birds with one stone: avoid repetition of the name _Kuala Lumpur_ and inject some background information. I guess this is supposed to be extremely subtle but when all the media do this it gets annoying. What drives me up the wall is that at some point in an article they _have to_ (must be some kind of a obsessive–compulsive disorder affecting the entire profession) refer to people solely by his/her age ("der 60-Jährige sagte unserem Reporter..." - "the 60 years old told our reporter...").



In English, it's the same scenario but it extends to every word.  In good style you're not supposed to repeat any!  Luckily English can draw on words from Latin, Greek, French, Anglo-Saxon and Germanic backgrounds so there's a fine sampling to choose from but sometimes you still have to search for synonyms.


----------



## Nanon

Same in other languages, I fear. I remember that some years ago, when I listened to the weather forecast on Arte (German-French TV channel), I was slightly irritated when hearing 'le pays de Goethe' instead of Germany - it sounded so false, and tell me who had read anything by Goethe among TV viewers ... I wonder how the German side of Arte called France.


----------



## rusita preciosa

merquiades said:


> Well, I guess, in theory, it is possible to drive to Oregon from Russia, by way of Siberia, Alaska and Canada. That is a LONG drive with snow


Is there a ferry across the Bering strait? Otherwise, not really


----------



## merquiades

rusita preciosa said:


> Is there a ferry across the Bering strait? Otherwise, not really



Apparently there are some boats from Kamchatka and Magadan to Alaska.  That would be an awesome adventure.  Actually soon there will be a tunnel from Russia to Alaska.


----------



## merquiades

Nanon said:


> Same in other languages, I fear. I remember that some years ago, when I listened to the weather forecast on Arte (German-French TV channel), I was slightly irritated when hearing 'le pays de Goethe' instead of Germany - it sounded so false, and tell me who had read anything by Goethe among TV viewers ... I wonder how the German side of Arte called France.



I do want to gag every time I hear someone say "La langue de Shakespeare" or "La langue de Molière".


----------



## berndf

merquiades said:


> Apparently there are some boats from Kamchatka and Magadan to Alaska.  That would be an awesome adventure.  Actually soon there will be a tunnel from Russia to Alaska.


In winter it seems to be possible: http://jalopnik.com/5041536/land-rover-defender-crosses-bering-strait-from-russia-to-alaska


----------



## JeanDeSponde

merquiades said:


> I do want to gag every time I hear someone say "La langue de Shakespeare" or "La langue de Molière".


Yet this is for the exactly same reason as you said previously





merquiades said:


> In English, it's the same scenario but it  extends to every word.  In good style you're not supposed to repeat any!


When "en anglais" is expected — don't say it. Say "la langue de Shakespeare".
It sure is stupid not to repeat something you haven't said yet — now is it more stupid, if you come to think of it, than not repeating something you just said...?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

La langue de Shakespeare is slightly curious, as no English speaker would ever refer to it as "Shakespeare's language".


----------



## Sepia

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I can't say I have ever felt even the slightest bit offended when an American specified Paris, France or London, England; as anyone familiar with North American geography should know, there are any number of Paris' and Londons in America thus the addition makes perfect sense; but to each his own.
> 
> Now, when continental Europeans are under the impression that Ireland is part of England, or Latvia is somewhere in Russia, I'm a little less forgiving.




I rebel against that too - it is so stupid to talk about "England" when you really mean the U.K. - and maybe even Scotland!

And at least Germans ought to be aware of at least one Paris apart from Paris, France. That is Paris, Texas. 

But it is not only in America that you have several "copies" of famous cities. We actually have a small village by the name of "Berlin", only about 50 km north of Hamburg. We have some other, less German copycat names along the Baltic coast, and while we still had the four-digit postal code system I counted 29 cities/towns/villages called "Neustadt". Every four-digit code covered a whole community so all the boroughs of larger cities also called "Neustadt" are not among those 29.


----------



## merquiades

JeanDeSponde said:


> Yet this is for the exactly same reason as you said previouslyWhen "en anglais" is expected — don't say it. Say "la langue de Shakespeare".
> It sure is stupid not to repeat something you haven't said yet — now is it more stupid, if you come to think of it, than not repeating something you just said...?



I suppose that the French are more into euphemism and clichés than synonyms or non-repetition.  None are really necessary, of course, and probably stilted.

When writing a paper and going through the list of "think, believe, deem, hold, view, aver, opine, consider, ponder, cogitate, reflect" so as not to repeat one, it is definitely not natural, and anyone who has written knows so.  It's like an exercise searching for another way to say the same thing.  The form becomes more important than the idea.  This is actually what makes writing tough and daunting for so many people.

Pedro is right.  _Langue de Shakespeare_ sounds just awful in English.  The euphemism is not even subtle.  Plus the person using it is trying to sound witty, but the opposite effect is achieved as it is used so much it is overkill.  Rather than synonyms, the French love learning expressions and repeatedly using them.  Even in English.  Most of the written reports and correspondence I have seen written by Frenchmen contain the fillers "in a nutshell" and "we may wonder if".  I get the same sense of nausea every time I see them.  
I guess in every nation people have an annoying mannerism


----------



## Nanon

merquiades said:


> I guess in every nation people have an annoying mannerism


Pretty much so, because _la lengua de Cervantes_ works more or less in the same way, doesn't it?  Cabe señalarlo .

Anyway:

when _en anglais_ is expected, say _la langue de Shakespeare_
when _en allemand_ is expected, say_ la langue de Goethe_ (vous avez lu Werther ? non ? pas grave )
when _en espagnol_ is expected, say _la langue de Cervantes_ (même si vous n'avez jamais ouvert Don Quichotte)
when _en italien_ is expected... erm... honestly, most speakers won't find any examples. _La langue de Dante_ appears in Wikipedia, but I never heard this expression. I have heard _la langue de Goldoni_ instead. But come on... have those people read or seen anything by Goldoni?
when _en russe_ is expected, say _la langue de Tolstoï_ notwithstanding the enormous amount of French sentences in _War and Peace_. Or la _langue de Pouchkine_ if you ever happen to know that guy.
when _en portugais_ is expected, say _la langue de Camões_ even if you just know his name (more than that -even if you haven't read anything written by any lusophone writer)
when _en chinois_ is expected, say _la langue de Confucius_ (victory! you managed to mention at least one Chinese writer!)

When _Paris_ is expected, say _la ville-lumière. _When _Marseille _is expected, say _la cité phocéenne._ And so on and so forth. Even if _Marseille, Texas _does not exist (not sure of that, though).

Those lists would be worth adding to Flaubert's _Dictionary of received ideas _.


----------



## Stoggler

Nanon said:


> Same in other languages, I fear. I remember that some years ago, when I listened to the weather forecast on Arte (German-French TV channel), I was slightly irritated when hearing 'le pays de Goethe' instead of Germany - it sounded so false, and tell me who had read anything by Goethe among TV viewers ... I wonder how the German side of Arte called France.



Can we make suggestions?  Käseland?  Weinland?  Any more French stereotypes I could use...?  

The non-repetition of a word or name can be rather irritating after a while - when I was doing French A Level at school I got to the point that if I saw "L'Hexagone" one more time I contemplated throwing the book/magazine out the window!  I can understand the rationale for not repeating the same names in the same article, but some of the coinings can be very jarring (as already mentioned).


----------



## rusita preciosa

*Australia-bound tourist ends up in Montana*


> A 21-year-old German tourist who wanted to visit his girlfriend in the Australian metropolis Sydney landed more than 8,000 miles away near Sidney, Montana, after mistyping his destination on a flight booking Web site.
> Dressed for the Australian summer in t-shirt and shorts, Tobi Gutt left Germany on Saturday for a four-week holiday.
> Instead of arriving “down under”, Gutt found himself on a different continent and bound for the chilly state of Montana.
> “I did wonder but I didn’t want to say anything,” Gutt told the Bild newspaper. “I thought to myself, you can fly to Australia via the United States.”
> Gutt’s airline ticket routed him via the U.S. city of Portland, Oregon, to Billings, Montana. Only as he was about to board a commuter flight to Sidney -- an oil town of about 5,000 people -- did he realize his mistake.
> The hapless tourist, who had only a thin jacket to keep out the winter cold, spent three days in Billings airport before he was able to buy a new ticket to Australia with 600 euros in cash that his parents and friends sent over from Germany.
> “I didn’t notice the mistake as my son is usually good with computers,” his mother, Sabine, told Reuters.


----------



## Nanon

rusita preciosa said:


> “I didn’t notice the mistake as my son is usually good with computers,” his mother, Sabine, told Reuters.


But not with spelling 



Stoggler said:


> Käseland?  Weinland?


Germany has fine wines and cheeses, so I doubt that would work .
Note that I try to place myself from a German point of view. Obviously no standard French nationalist would ever recognise that Germany has fine cheeses and wines .


----------



## Stoggler

Nanon said:


> But not with spelling
> 
> 
> Germany has fine wines and cheeses, so I doubt that would work ..



I did think that while typing it, I had a feeling I'd regret it...  
(I was trying to find good positive French stereotypes.  Plus I didn't know the German for Rude Parisian Waiter Land...! )

I have had some cracking German wines before (afraid I have little experience of German cheese though other than what gets served up in hotel breakfast buffets).


----------



## L'irlandais

Nanon said:


> ..Germany has fine wines and cheeses, so I doubt that would work .
> Note that I try to place myself from a German point of view. Obviously no standard French nationalist would ever recognise that Germany has fine cheeses and wines .


I agree ;  I'm NO Nationalist, but please name me one German fine wine or cheese, (ONE that other people actually know of, that is.)  While I do recognise that fine German wines & cheeses exist ;  the problem is -  none spring to mind like when I try to think of one.  While with France it's hard to know which of any 2000 cheeses; one might omit without causing (too much) offence :  Compté, Cambert, Oussau-Iraty, Roquefort, Chèvre, Pont l'Evêque, Tomme de Savoie, 

While I'm pretty sure I could find half a dozen German cheeses I've tasted and liked ;  I'm really far from sure anybody on this forum would recognise any of them! 

Example of regional issue :  "Langres" is a short drive from me, love the cheese, people in Australia will have heard of it.  Can't touch that!  Source :  *here*


----------



## sabs14

Wow, what an interesting thread. 

When I read the title, I thought about something like Monaco (the principality) and Monaco (Munich in Italian).
But I guess that you don't need an identifying "last name" in this case since one refers to basically a country and the other one to a city (thus you have different prepositions, don't you?). Sorry, I'm terribly out of practice with my Italian...


----------



## Sepia

Hulalessar said:


> Agreed. However, Americans ought to be aware that saying "London, England" or "Paris, France" when speaking to Europeans can come over as highly condescending.



I don't think so. At least in Germany, I think, everybody knows of Paris, Texas - and I think it is common knowledge that there is a whole bunch of Londons, Hamburgs and Berlins all over North America. What is less known is that there are at least two Berlins in Germany.


----------



## Sepia

L'irlandais said:


> I agree ; I'm NO Nationalist, but please name me one German fine wine or cheese, (ONE that other people actually know of, that is.) While I do recognise that fine German wines & cheeses exist ; the problem is - none spring to mind like when I try to think of one. While with France it's hard to know which of any 2000 cheeses; one might omit without causing (too much) offence : Compté, Cambert, Oussau-Iraty, Roquefort, Chèvre, Pont l'Evêque, Tomme de Savoie,
> 
> While I'm pretty sure I could find half a dozen German cheeses I've tasted and liked ; I'm really far from sure anybody on this forum would recognise any of them!
> 
> Example of regional issue : "Langres" is a short drive from me, love the cheese, people in Australia will have heard of it. Can't touch that! Source : *here*




But there are totally different reasons for that. In neighbouring countries most people who drink wine know of Riesling, Burgunder and such. But French cuisine and wine has build up a totally different image over a few centuries. This probably does not have to do with quality, rather than with the fact that people who had learned the trade of French cuisine were spread all over Europe after the Revolution. And what wine is concerned - France produces a lot more of it and has a lot more different areas where wine may come from, than Germany does. 
It is like: Name one good Northern German wine - that is just as good as: Name one good Irish wine.


----------



## merquiades

rusita preciosa said:


> *Australia-bound tourist ends up in Montana*
> A 21-year-old German tourist who wanted to visit his girlfriend in the Australian metropolis Sydney landed more than 8,000 miles away near Sidney, Montana, after mistyping his destination on a flight booking Web site.
> Dressed for the Australian summer in t-shirt and shorts, Tobi Gutt left Germany on Saturday for a four-week holiday.
> Instead of arriving “down under”, Gutt found himself on a different continent and bound for the chilly state of Montana.
> “I did wonder but I didn’t want to say anything,” Gutt told the Bild newspaper. “I thought to myself, you can fly to Australia via the United States.”
> Gutt’s airline ticket routed him via the U.S. city of Portland, Oregon, to Billings, Montana. Only as he was about to board a commuter flight to Sidney -- an oil town of about 5,000 people -- did he realize his mistake.
> The hapless tourist, who had only a thin jacket to keep out the winter cold, spent three days in Billings airport before he was able to buy a new ticket to Australia with 600 euros in cash that his parents and friends sent over from Germany.
> “I didn’t notice the mistake as my son is usually good with computers,” his mother, Sabine, told Reuters.


 
Just saw this Rusita.  Now, that is a compelling reason never to forget to say Sydney, Australia.


----------



## L'irlandais

Sepia said:


> ...
> It is like: Name one good Northern German wine - that is just as good as: Name one good Irish wine.


Vines need a certain amout of sunshine to ripen.  North Germany's gastronomic renown is probaly for Beer & wurst.  Irish whiskey is known far and wide.

Riesling, would be an Alsatian wine hear in France.  Burgunder, never heard of it, but may have drunk some during my year in Germany.


----------



## berndf

L'irlandais said:


> I'm really far from sure anybody on this forum would recognise any of them!


If you bet on this you would lose. As a native I would of course recognize some traditional regional but also some modern industrial cheeses. You are right that there are no German cheeses with internationally renowned brand images. The traditional attitude towards cheese is different than in Italy or France. It is an every day food not an object of sophistication or national pride.

With respect to wine, things are a bit different. German wine has efficiently destroyed its international image through cheap exports in the mid 20th century ("Liebfrauenmilch") but also internally as a consequence of an industrialization of wine growing in the 1970s were traditional quality labels (Kabinett, Spätlese, etc.) were equated with banal chemical measures like sugar contents. This is, thank God, overcome how.


----------



## Nino83

sabs14 said:


> When I read the title, I thought about something like Monaco (the principality) and Monaco (Munich in Italian).
> But I guess that you don't need an identifying "last name" in this case since one refers to basically a country and the other one to a city (thus you have different prepositions, don't you?). Sorry, I'm terribly out of practice with my Italian...



No, because we use the same preposition for cities and city-states/little countries (for example one "va *in* Francia" but he "va *a* Malta/Panama/Andorra/Monaco). 

In Italian "Monaco" = "Monaco" (or Monte Carlo) while "Munich" = "Monaco di Baviera".


----------



## Hemza

Another cities which have the same name: "Rabat" in Morocco and in Malta ^^. The spelling might be different in English/French but in Arabic, it's the same.

Also, "Madina" again in Malta and "Madina" in Saudi Arabia (although it's hard to confuse both, since the one in Saudi Arabia has a long name, "Madina al munawwara")


----------



## Packard

LilianaB said:


> There are many places called Paris, Moscow, Warsaw in the United States -- this might be the reason. The Eifel Tower- that might be different, although who knows -- many things are created in Hollywood and Disneyland, so someone may still have doubts where the film is taking place.



After college I was a travelling salesman in the USA.  On three successive weeks I called home to mom to talk.  On each occasion I was in Watertown.  Watertown, NY, then Watertown, CT, and then Watertown, MI.

To this date my mom thinks I was making these all up.  And I'm sure that there are more Watertowns out there.  

In Connecticut alone there is a Watertown, a Waterford, and a Waterbury.


----------



## rusita preciosa

Here is a fun fact (do I sound like Sheldon?):

*Riverside *is the most common city name in the US, while Springfield (often thought of as the most common) is not even in top 10.



> Riverside can be found in all but four states (it does not exist in Hawaii, Alaska, Louisiana, and Oklahoma).The runner up was Centerville in 45 states, followed by Fairview (43 states), Franklin (42), Midway (40), Fairfield (39), Pleasant Valley (39), Troy (39), Liberty (38), and Union (38). Springfield isn't even in the top ten (only 35 states have a Springfield).


There is no town that is present in all 50 states.


----------



## aprendiendo argento

Pula in Croatia and Pula in Italy.
Požega in Croatia and Požega in Serbia.


----------



## sound shift

Tuzla in Bosnia and Tuzla in Turkey (the Asian part of Istanbul).


----------



## Perseas

Tripoli in Libya, Greece and Lebanon. In Greek it's Τρίπολη.


----------



## Packard

Perseas said:


> Tripoli in Libya, Greece and Lebanon. In Greek it's Τρίπολη.


And of course there is my shoe size:  8.5 EEE (Pronounced "eight and a half, triple E").

I don't know what country that city is in.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Dublin, Ohio and Dublin, California. There are probably a few more in the U.S.


----------



## ilocas2

Košice - 2nd biggest town in Slovakia
Košice - 2 villages in Czech Republic

Žilina - 4th biggest town in Slovakia
Žilina - 2 villages in Czech Republic

Trnava - 7th biggest town in Slovakia
Trnava - 3 villages in Czech Republic

Katowice - 10th biggest town in Poland
Katovice - village in Czech Republic


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## merquiades

There is an interesting long documentary on Deutsche Welle television in which journalists from Berlin, Germany have made a point to go around the world visiting, documenting, meeting the locals of all the Berlin sister cities around the world.  Apparently there are almost a hundred.  Berlin, Russia; Berlin, El Salvador; Berlin, Papua New Guinea; Berlin, Guinee; Berlin, Ohio; Berlin, New Jersey; Berlin, Texas; Berlin, Bolivia....  There are more but I can't remember.  It's funny to see a small hamlet in the middle of the desert with a small sign saying Berlin.


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

merquiades said:


> No, but isn't it France that's part of Belgium?



Kidding aside, besides Elsass-Lothringen and English Flanders (pale of Calais), definitely bits of France up there annexed from little old Belgium and Luxemburg too. I think most of the rim of nowadays France is annexed land, and quite lately too.

A good deal of this annexed land (moreso northern France rather than the 'subloirean France') now within France is utterly thanks to British blessing of French imperialism with the endgame of snubbing/thwarting Great Britain's real historical rivals: Dutch and German interests. It's all about the proxy. It's all about the money. Check out Canadian history to see the how much more the British economic knowhow was compared to the Francophones.

Like in carving up Africa and Asia, France went for quantity (primitive glory and satisfaction) whilst the British went for quality (money) - so Britain oft turnt a blind eye to continental French imperialism (braggadocio oft borne from an historical sense of insecurity within France) as long as the Dutch and Germans where somehow at the recieving end of it - meant less (top) rivals and more monies and power for the British.


----------



## Hemza

"Sur" in Oman and "Sur" (known as "Tyr" in English/French) in Lebanon. Both cities have the same name in Arabic (صور/Su:r) because the Phoenicians are presumed to be originally from Southern Arabia (Yemen and Oman) and immigrated to the Eastern Mediterranean bank.



L'irlandais said:


> I agree ;  I'm NO Nationalist, but please name me one German fine wine or cheese, (ONE that other people actually know of, that is.)  While I do recognise that fine German wines & cheeses exist ;  the problem is -  none spring to mind like when I try to think of one.  While with France it's hard to know which of any 2000 cheeses; one might omit without causing (too much) offence :  Compté, Cambert, Oussau-Iraty, Roquefort, Chèvre, Pont l'Evêque, Tomme de Savoie,



Hello,

where have you seen it written "compté"? Or even "Cambert"? Are those old names/spelling? Because I know "comté" and "camembert" but never seen the spelling "compté" nor a cheese called "cambert"...


----------



## fdb

Hemza said:


> "Sur" in Oman and "Sur" (known as "Tyr" in English/French) in Lebanon. Both cities have the same name in Arabic (صور/Su:r) because the Phoenicians are presumed to be originally from Southern Arabia (Yemen and Oman) and immigrated to the Eastern Mediterranean bank.




There is no evidence that the Phoenicians came from Southern Arabia. For the town in Phoenicia the juxtaposition of Ṣūr and Greek Tyros point to an ancient form with ظ. Thus the place name in Oman cannot very well be cognate with the one in Lebanon.


----------



## Hemza

fdb said:


> There is no evidence that the Phoenicians came from Southern Arabia. For the town in Phoenicia the juxtaposition of Ṣūr and Greek Tyros point to an ancient form with ظ. Thus the place name in Oman cannot very well be cognate with the one in Lebanon.



Je ne fais que citer ce que dit Philippe Hitti à propos de l'origine des Phéniciens. C'est également ce que ma prof d'arabe m'a appris (elle est syrienne) a l'aide de nombreuses sources. Je serai prêt à les lui réclamer si vous les voulez.

Alors comment expliquez vous la similitude des noms? Serait-ce une simple coïncidence? Ou peut être que c'est la ville libanaise qui a donné son nom à la ville omanaise?

Ps: je ne cherche pas à vous contredire, juste à connaître vos hypothèses à ce sujet .


----------



## L'irlandais

Hemza said:


> ..where have you seen it written "compté"? Or even "Cambert"? Are those old names/spelling? Because I know "comté" and "camembert" but never seen the spelling "compté" nor a cheese called "cambert"...


Cut 'n Pasted without paying much attention, my apologies.  Your spelling is correct.


----------



## Hemza

L'irlandais said:


> Cut 'n Pasted without paying much attention, my apologies.  Your spelling is correct.


No no, don't apologise, I was thinking "great, new French cheeses I don't know" .


----------



## Grop

To be fair, many French speakers may be confused about the spelling of comté/compté/conté.


----------



## Language Hound

There are so many different ideas in this very interesting thread!
Rusita's story of the German tourist who wanted to go to Sydney, Australia but ended up in Sidney, Montana
reminded me of the story of a young man trying to fly home to Oakland, California. He had been vacationing in Germany and had flown from London to
Los Angeles.  The flight from LA to Oakland was only 400 miles, but he ended up going MUCH further than that on his flight to Aukland, New Zealand!





> Not until Tahiti was mentioned during an in-flight announcement did Lewis realize his predicament.
> 
> Lewis told a customs officer at Auckland Airport that he had arrived in Los Angeles aboard an Air New Zealand flight from London and followed the crowd, many of whom were traveling on to Auckland.
> 
> "He was asked where he was going. He said 'Oakland,' received a boarding pass and got back on the same aircraft," the officer said.  Source


Quite a good case for specifying "Oakland, California" or "Auckland, New Zealand" I'd say!
(Or for airline ticket agents to better inspect/read passengers' tickets!!! [This happened in 1985, when they were a bit more lax about such things.])


----------



## franknagy

Budapest (Hungary) is often mixed up with Bucharest (Romania).
Who knows more "San José" towns than the one inCalifornia, Bay Area, USA and the other, the capital of Costa Rica? I think there must be many others within the Spanish speaking word.


----------



## AutumnOwl

In Sweden there are three cities that begin with Karls-: _Karlsborg, Karlshamn, Karlskrona_ and two cities beginning with Karl-: _Karlstad_ and _Karlskoga_. Some people have difficulties placing _Lidköping_ and _Linköping_ in the right county, as one is in _Västergötland_ and the other in _Östergötland_.


----------



## franknagy

Elsass-Lothringen[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Let me continue this historical off-topic remark.
> My favorite history teacher explained that Charlemagne divided his empire among his 3 grandsons.
> He gave Lothar the middle stripe among Bald Charles (king of Western France) and German Lewis (king of Germany).
> Lothar kicked the bucket earliest. Since the France and Germany kept fighting for Lothar's heritage, for more than 1100 years.


----------



## funnyhat

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Kidding aside, besides Elsass-Lothringen and English Flanders (pale of Calais), definitely bits of France up there annexed from little old Belgium and Luxemburg too. I think most of the rim of nowadays France is annexed land, and quite lately too.
> 
> A good deal of this annexed land (moreso northern France rather than the 'subloirean France') now within France is utterly thanks to British blessing of French imperialism with the endgame of snubbing/thwarting Great Britain's real historical rivals: Dutch and German interests. It's all about the proxy. It's all about the money. Check out Canadian history to see the how much more the British economic knowhow was compared to the Francophones.



Actually France's northern and eastern expansion mostly occurred in the seventeenth century under Mazarin and Louis XIV.  England (it wasn't Britain yet) was allied to France for part of that, but to call it the decisive factor in the French conquests is a stretch.


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## franknagy

>Actually France's northern and eastern expansion mostly occurred in the seventeenth century under Mazarin and Louis XIV.
The tradition of 1100 years of opposition cannot be neglected.
There was a short period of alliance between France and Germany: when Marie Antoinette Hapsburg was the wife of Louis XVI. _This period ended with the Great French Revolution._ How will the fragile alliance of F. and G. collapse in the moribund European Union?


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## RM1(SS)

berndf said:


> I have thought a bit more about it whar really creates this emotional reaction with me. I think if people said _Paris, Ile de France_, _Rome, Lazio_ or _Munich, Bavaria_ instead of _Paris, France_, _Rome, Italy_ or _Munich, Germany_, it still would sound unfamiliar to me (we usually suffix geographical landmarks rather than state names to avoid ambiguities) but it wouldn't create this irritation. It may be the real issue is that entire nations are equated to one of your states.


That would require knowing the names of other countries' states - or even that other countries _have_ states.


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## Sepia

Now fine - I don't expect everybody to know every bloody town or region in the world, but is it too much to expect that people pick up a map and just give it some thought if the destination they are buying a ticket for can really be the one they really want to go to.

I mean sometimes it is not even of any use asking the ticket agent: Once I was buying a ticket from Hamburg to Nykoebing M in Denmark - which obviously the one in the north of Jutland. That is what the M means. In other words almost straight north when you come from Hamburg. And the idiot in the ticket office of one of the major train stations in Hamburg (where I have never ever gotten any usefull information) insisted arrogantly on booking me via Copenhagen, meaning, goint north-east, crossing over by ferry, to the Islands, going to Copenhagen, catching a differnt train there going west, getting off for another ferry-boat ride to Funen, proceeding west back to Jutland, then proceeding north by the train that would probably be coming directly from Hamburg ...

I mean, is it too much to ask that people pick up a map and just switch on at least a minimum of brain power ... ?

An idiot in the same ticket office once tried to give me a ticket to Straßburg in esatern Germany although I explicitly said Strasbourg (French pronunciation - totally different). I mean Strasbourg is not just some small town ...


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## franknagy

merquiades said:


> Yes, American geography is also a problem for the French.  Ohio, Iowa, Idaho... the same.  They're often confused even on tv.  Or you get Ohiowa, Ohidaho, Idowa.  Skiing in the mountains of Washington DC.


What is the correct pronunciation of _Tucson_. Is it "two son", is not it? Why?


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## funnyhat

franknagy said:


> What is the correct pronunciation of _Tucson_. Is it "two son", is not it? Why?



If you mean like the word "son" (homonym to "sun"), no.  It's like "Two sahn"


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## franknagy

Why has the sound -k- dropped from Tucson?


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## funnyhat

Not sure.  It's derived from an indigenous name, but I don't know if the "c" was ever pronounced.


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## berndf

It is in modern Spanish. But that may of course be hyper-correct, like Parisians who pronounce the x in Bruxelles or Chamonix as /ks/.


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## merquiades

franknagy said:


> What is the correct pronunciation of _Tucson_. Is it "two son", is not it? Why?





			
				funnyhat said:
			
		

> If you mean like the word "son" (homonym to "sun"), no. It's like "Two sahn"



I'd say "two sawn" with the vowel of "sauna".
Wikipedia recommends this pronunciation:  (/ˈtuːsɒn/ or occasionally locally /tuːˈsɒn/)

From wikipedia on the origin


> The Spanish name of the city, _Tucsón _[tukˈson], derived from the O'Odham _Cuk Ṣon _[tʃʊk ʂɔːn], meaning "(at the) base of the black [hill]", a reference to a basalt-covered hill now known as "A" Mountain. Tucson is sometimes referred to as "The Old Pueblo".


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## rusita preciosa

This morning driving to work I was listening to the local radio talk show, and the host was reading a story of a person in Spain who was gored by a bull while filming the running with bulls. He stumbled on the sentence 'the man was taken to a Toledo hospital". His side comment on that was (somewhat surprised) was "Huh, there is Toledo, Spain??".  I guess he is more familiar with Toledo, Ohio.


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## kentix

merquiades said:


> I'd say "two sawn" with the vowel of "sauna".



Keep in mind, in some places sauna is pronounced with the vowel of cow (roughly).

That would be an inaccurate pronunciation of Tucson.


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