# Slavic Name Ivan



## CyrusSH

I believe this name has an Indo-European origin and means "young man", so it originally didn't relate to then name of John, similar names can be found in Iranian and Celtic cultures.


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## rushalaim

Ivan, John are from Jewish name. See Wikipedia.


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## bearded

CyrusSH said:


> I believe this name has an Indo-European origin and means "young man''


Do you have any evidence for this? In my knowledge Ivàn corresponds to Giovanni/Johannes/John.... all of them of Jewish origin.


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## Scholiast

Greetings


CyrusSH said:


> similar names can be found in ... Celtic cultures.


Quite so: "Ieuan" and "Evan" in Wales and "Ewen" in Scotland - all variants on the Biblical "John".
Σ


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## ahvalj

(1) In principle, as it has been shown conclusively so many times on this forum, many words in various world languages can be explained from the Tagalog sources. Don't see why _Ivan_ should different in this respect.

(2) The church variant of the name _Иван/Ivan_ is _Иоанн/Ioann _(with three separate vowels _i-o-a_), e. g. John the Baptist is _Иоанн Креститель/Ioann Krʲestʲitʲelʲ, _cp. in Greek _Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστής._

(3) The PIE _*hₐı̯uhₑen-_ "young", Sanskrit and Avestan _yuvan_-, Latin _juvenis_ (Beekes RSP · 1995 · Comparative Indo-European linguistics: an introduction: 170 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJY1IwVDdSNVBtMTQ), should have produced the Balto-Slavic **_ı̯uu̯en_- and further the Lithuanian **_juvuo, _Gen. Sg. **_juvens_ (cp. "shepherd": _piemuo,_ Gen. Sg. _piemens _vs. Greek _ποιμήν_), and the Old Church Slavonic _**jьvy/ивы, _Gen. Sg. _**jьvene/ивене_ (cp. _kamy, _Gen. Sg._ kamene _"stone" vs. Lithuanian _akmuo, _Gen. Sg. _akmens,_ Greek _ἄκμων,_ Sanskrit _aśman-_) — both of which aren't attested.

(4) The Nom. Sg. -_ōn_ could have been generalized in Slavic, thematicized, and produced the modern -_an,_ but in reality the few Slavic words that in the modern languages end on -_an_ go back to post-PIE *_-ānos _or *_-ōnos. _More probable is the transfer to the _i_-stems (e. g. Late Common Slavic _*žerāvi _"crane" from PIE Nom. Sg. _*gerhₐōu̯ — Derksen R · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of the Slavic inherited lexicon: _558 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJb0J4a1VKMVlPRXM), but the expected **_Ивань/Ivanʲ_ actually doesn't exist.

(5) Otherwise, Balto-Slavic has a thematic outcome of this IE word: PIE _*hₐı̯eu̯hₑnos/*hₐı̯ou̯hₑnos_>_*ı̯āu̯nas_> Lithuanian _jaunas,_ Old Church Slavonic _юнъ/junъ_ (_Derksen R · 2015 · Etymological dictionary of the Baltic inherited lexicon: _209 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJNE9aU1BlSzFwSUE and _Derksen R · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of the Slavic inherited lexicon:_ 208 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJb0J4a1VKMVlPRXM).


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## bearded

ahvalj said:


> (1) In principle, as it has been shown conclusively so many times on this forum, many words in various world languages can be explained from the Tagalog sources. Don't see why _Ivan_ should different in this respect


Irony  very much appreciated, especially the word ''conclusively''!


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## CyrusSH

Scholiast said:


> Greetings
> 
> Quite so: "Ieuan" and "Evan" in Wales and "Ewen" in Scotland - all variants on the Biblical "John".
> Σ



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan As you read it says this name in Gaelic means "young".


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## fdb

This is classic wiki-rubbish.

*“Evan* is a Welsh masculine given name derived from "lefen", a Welsh form for the name John.”

Then:

“Evan also (!!) comes from Gaelic Eóghan meaning "youth" or "young warrior"”

Then:

“It can also (!!!) be the shortened version of the Greek name "Evangelos" (meaning messenger) or "Evander"”

Maybe Mr Wiki should make up his mind.


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## CyrusSH

Ivan could be the name of an Indo-European festival of young people in midsummer, especially in Iranian, Slavic and Celtic cultures, we can see these similarities: lighting bonfires, jumping over them and finally gathering flowers by young people.

http://anastasiamalyk.neocities.org/: On this day unmarried girls gather wild and garden flowers then weave them into a wreath and then put it on the water.

http://iranian.com/posts/view/post/12041: The young girls weave together fresh herbs, singing as they do so in a low voice: "Next Sizdah-Bedar, I hope to be in my husband’s home, and as a lady holding a baby" (In Persian: Sizdah Bedar Saal-e Degar Khaaneh-ye Showhar Bacheh Beh Baghal).

In Iranian culture it is called "Norooz Bal" (new-year balefire) and in Celtic "Beltane" with the same meaning.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> This is classic wiki-rubbish.
> 
> *“Evan* is a Welsh masculine given name derived from "lefen", a Welsh form for the name John.”
> 
> Then:
> 
> “Evan also (!!) comes from Gaelic Eóghan meaning "youth" or "young warrior"”
> 
> Then:
> 
> “It can also (!!!) be the shortened version of the Greek name "Evangelos" (meaning messenger) or "Evander"”
> 
> Maybe Mr Wiki should make up his mind.



It is not just in Wikipedia, just search for Celtic name of Evan. http://babynames.allparenting.com/list/Celtic_Baby_Names/Evan/details/


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> Ivan could be the name of an Indo-European festival of young people in midsummer, especially in Iranian, Slavic and Celtic cultures, we can see these similarities: lighting bonfires, jumping over them and finally gathering flowers by young people.
> 
> http://anastasiamalyk.neocities.org/: On this day unmarried girls gather wild and garden flowers then weave them into a wreath and then put it on the water.


The Ivan Kupala day is celebrated in the night of June 23/24 in the Julian calendar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala_Night), which corresponds to the day when the church celebrates the nativity of St. John the Baptist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_St_John_the_Baptist). The feast itself may perfectly be of pagan origin (as is the word _kupala_ "bather"), but the name Ivan is certainly Christian.


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## CyrusSH

I forgot to mention that all these midsummer festivals relate to marriage of girls and they were usually held in June (Latin iunius) which means "sacred to Juno", Juno (iuvenis) was Roman goddess of women and marriage, and the word means "young".


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## CyrusSH

It seems some people here believe that etymologies of some words are as holy as their religious figures, so no one should talk about them!

Meanwhile Iranians who hold a similar midsummer festival, have never been Christian and most of them don't know who St. John is.


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## Angelo di fuoco

CyrusSH said:


> It is not just in Wikipedia, just search for Celtic name of Evan. http://babynames.allparenting.com/list/Celtic_Baby_Names/Evan/details/



Sites featuring baby names aren't reliable at all. There are lots of fancy "etymologies" around.



CyrusSH said:


> I forgot to mention that all these midsummer festivals relate to marriage of girls and they were usually held in June
> (Latin iunius) which means "sacred to Juno", Juno (iuvenis) was Roman goddess of women and marriage, and the word means "young".



It is but one possible etymology of Juno. However, to ent the OT: Juno and Ivan are certainly NOT related, since one is of Latin origin, while the other is of Jewish origin (via Greek Ιωἀννης).



CyrusSH said:


> It seems some people here believe that etymologies of some words are as holy as their religious figures, so no one should talk about them!
> 
> Meanwhile Iranians who hold a similar midsummer festival, have never been Christian and most of them don't know who St. John is.



The feast is certainly of Pagan, not Christian origin: summer solstice, the middle of the year.


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## CyrusSH

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Sites featuring baby names aren't reliable at all. There are lots of fancy "etymologies" around.



What about this one: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Evan



> It is but one possible etymology of Juno. However, to ent the OT: Juno and Ivan are certainly NOT related, since one is of Latin origin, while the other is of Jewish origin (via Greek Ιωἀννης).



You probably think the name of Roman goddess Juno has also a Jewish origin!



> The feast is certainly of Pagan, not Christian origin: summer solstice, the middle of the year.



So there is no reason to relate it to a Christian figure?


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## Panceltic

CyrusSH said:


> So there is no reason to relate it to a Christian figure?



I think it is universally known that Christianity "adapted" Pagan festivals and holidays to their own needs. Over centuries, the elements of pre-Christian and Christian celebrations fused and now we have some very interesting traditions around Europe.


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## Scholiast

Greetings



CyrusSH said:


> What about this one: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Evan



This is a simple-minded misinterpretation of what the online article says:

masc. proper name, Welsh form of John, *perhaps influenced in form* by Welsh ieuanc "young man" (cognate of Latin juvenis), from Celtic *yowanko-, from PIE *yeu- "vital force, youthful vigor" (see young (adj.)).​(My emphasis). I presume that we are now to understand that there was a hitherto unrecognised direct influence from Old Persian on proto-Brythonic? This would certainly fit in well with the ancient Scottish custom of hogmagandy, a practice involving marriageable maidens at the solstice, and also, as this was the _winter_ solstice, artificial illumination (i.e. candles). This incidentally conclusively refutes Ahvalj's theory that these terms are of Tagalog origin.

Σ


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## CyrusSH

Name of Ivan Kupala relates to John the Baptist, as much as Lughnasa relates to Lammas (loaf-mass), the fact is that Christianization of Indo-European-origin names, festivals and etc has a long history in Europe, so that today many Europeans can't believe that most of those names could have no relation to Christianity.


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## Panceltic

How so? Kupala is a word that predates Christianization, possibly a Slavic deity. It was only later that it got combined with St John the Baptist's holiday.


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## Angelo di fuoco

CyrusSH said:


> What about this one: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Evan



Where does it say "John" or "Ivan" means "young man" or "warrior"?



CyrusSH said:


> You probably think the name of Roman goddess Juno has also a Jewish origin!



No. I say Juno is Latin and John-Ivan-Euan-whatsoever is of Jewish origin, via Greek. There's no connection between the Roman goddess and the Jewish male name. Have I made myself clear?



CyrusSH said:


> So there is no reason to relate it to a Christian figure?



The Ivan Kupala Night is one of the least christianised festivities in Eastern Europe, for all I know. I'm no expert, but I think that the Orthodox Church even opposed this festivity and persecuted those who celebrated it.

It works this way: if you cannot destroy something, make it work for you. First there was a pagan festivity (many of them, actually), then the Christian Church gradually added Christian elements. Marion Zimmer Bradley gives an excellent description of the way how one religion substitutes another in her novel "The Mists of Avalon". There's also a movie based upon the novel - somewhat less _osé_ than the novel, but still quite good.


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## apmoy70

CyrusSH said:


> ...
> Meanwhile Iranians who hold a similar midsummer festival, *have never been Christian* and most of them don't know who St. John is.


Search for Tatian's Diatessaron, the Persian Nestorian Church of the East, and its relationship with the Syriac Church and you'll be surprised to find out that Persia had a thriving Christian (anti-Chalcedonian and Nestorian) Church in the early centuries CE


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## CyrusSH

As I found the actual Slavic (and Welsh) name of John, from Greek Ioannes, is *Ioan*, and it sounds logical, the interesting thing is that in Russia, the actual religious name is Ioann and when a person called Ivan becomes a priest or a monk, he becomes known as Ioann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan


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## rushalaim

Angelo di fuoco said:


> I think that the Orthodox Church even opposed this festivity and persecuted those who celebrated it.


Maybe that's why the Russian Orthodox church uses their bad calendar? The only reason is in order to the ancient pagan feasts like the Summer solstice would not coincide with the real solar calendar.


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## Angelo di fuoco

CyrusSH said:


> As I found the actual Slavic (and Welsh) name of John, from Greek Ioannes, is *Ioan*, and it sounds logical, the interesting thing is that in Russia, the actual religious name is Ioann and when a person called Ivan becomes a priest or a monk, he becomes known as Ioann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan



I'm not sure that Ioann is really to be called _religious_. E. g. one of the many 18th century tsarinas regnant is traditionally called Anna Ioannovna instead of *Anna Ivanovna. Jeanne d'Arc was called Ioanna as late as 1881 (Tchaikovsky's opera "The Maid of Orleans", after Schiller's homonymous tragedy and some other sources). 



rushalaim said:


> Maybe that's why the Russian Orthodox church uses their bad calendar? The only reason is in order to the ancient pagan feasts like the Summer solstice would not coincide with the real solar calendar.



I would rather suppose the position "what comes from the Catholics is bad". After all, Protestant countries like Sweden adopted the Gregorian calendar only two centuries later.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> As I found the actual Slavic (and Welsh) name of John, from Greek Ioannes, is *Ioan*, and it sounds logical, the interesting thing is that in Russia, the actual religious name is Ioann and when a person called Ivan becomes a priest or a monk, he becomes known as Ioann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan


It is nothing unusual to have the same biblical name in different assimilated form in a language. _Iohannes _is in German _Johannes, Johann_ or _Hans_. _Iacobus _is in Spanish _Jaime _or _Diego _and in English _James, Jacob_ or _Jack_.


CyrusSH said:


> Name of Ivan Kupala relates to John the Baptist, as much as Lughnasa relates to Lammas (loaf-mass), the fact is that Christianization of Indo-European-origin names, festivals and etc has a long history in Europe, so that today many Europeans can't believe that most of those names could have no relation to Christianity.


The assumption that the_ Ivan Kupala_ festival replaced an earlier pagan one is reasonable but that that doesn't mean the name has to be of pagan origin as well. I see no reason to doubt that _Ivan Kupala _(=_the bather_) means anything else then _John the Baptist_ (=_the one who dips sth/so in water_, i.e. _the bather_). The 24th of June is the day of John the Baptists in practically all Churches and not just in Slavic ones.


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## CyrusSH

Meaning of "bather" for Kupala is also a result of Christianization of this festival, as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupala According to Vyacheslav Ivanov and Vladimir Toporov, the name Kupala is derived from the same Indo-European root as the name of Cupid, Roman god of love, which means 'passion' or 'desire'.


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## rusita preciosa

CyrusSH said:


> According to Vyacheslav Ivanov and Vladimir Toporov, the name Kupala is derived from the same Indo-European root as the name of Cupid, Roman god of love, which means 'passion' or 'desire'.


Vasmer  (one of the most reliable sources for Russian etymology) does not trace the origin of kupala/kupat (Slavic god/bathe) to Cupid/passion/desire. It claims the word has unclear Slavic origins.


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## CyrusSH

So the author has discovered that he doesn't know what Kupala means! 



> (1) In principle, as it has been shown conclusively so many times on this forum, many words in various world languages can be explained from the Tagalog sources. Don't see why Ivan should different in this respect.



And why not Kupala! Please don't search for the meaning of "Kupal" in the Tagalog!!

It is interesting that Kupal is also a Persian name: http://given-name.com/name/39881/Kupal it means "mace, cudgel; having broad shoulders".


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## ahvalj

Latin _cupīdō_ "passionate, desire; Cupid" is derived from the verb _cupiō_ "to desire", which has a cognate in the Balto-Slavic *_kūpē-_ "to boil", cp. Lithuanian _kūpėti_ and Old Church Slavonic _kypěti_, as well as a number of other cognates in Balto-Slavic and in other branches (_de Vaan M · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of Latin and the other Italic languages:_ 155 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJS1ZxV2dpdnhzUEk).

The post-Common Slavic word _kǫpati _"to bath" has a nasalized vowel in the root, which can only come from _am,_ so in Common Slavic this root sounded as _*kamp-,_ which can't be cognate with _*kup-_ in the above word. The reliable cognates of _*kamp- _outside Slavic are unknown (_[ЭССЯ] · 1985 · Этимологический словарь славянских языков. Праславянский лексический фонд. Выпуск 12 (*koulъkъ–*kroma/*kromъ):_ 58–61 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJXzhXVDh5MG8yT0U). The Russian _купала/kupala _thus goes back to a post-Common Slavic _*kǫpalo~kǫpala_ < late Common Slavic _*kampāla~kampālā._ This suffix in modern Russian is mostly found in colloquial _nomina agentis:_ _водитель/vodʲitʲelʲ _"driver" → _водила/vodʲila_; _учительница/uʨitʲelʲnʲiʦa_ "teacher" (female) → _училка/uʨilka,_ _кидала/kidala_, _дрочила/droʨila_; _меняла/menʲala_ "shroff, money changer" is neutral, though.


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## ahvalj

I have followed your link to the Wikipedia and opened for the first time the encyclopedia «Мифы народов мира», which I own since 1994: Ivanov and Toporov (as it sometimes happened to them, especially to the former) simply didn't check the sources and decided that this word has an etymological _u_-diphthong, which is wrong (see #29, cp. Bulgarian _къпя/kəpʲə,_ Slovene _kopati _and Polish _kąpać,_ which all point to _*am: _the _u_-diphthong would have produced _kup-_ in all these languages, cp. Gothic _kaupon_ "to buy, to trade" (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/kaupōną) > post-Common Slavic _kupiti_ "to buy" > Old Church Slavonic _кѹпити/kupiti,_ Bulgarian _купя/kupʲə,_ Slovene _kupiti_ and Polish _kupić_).


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## rushalaim

rusita preciosa said:


> Vasmer  (one of the most reliable sources for Russian etymology) does not trace the origin of kupala/kupat (Slavic god/bathe) to Cupid/passion/desire. It claims the word has unclear Slavic origins.


Купала - Купель?


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## ahvalj

rushalaim said:


> Купала - Купель?


The root has no reliable etymology outside Slavic. Within Slavic it has, of course, a number of derivates, including _кѫпѣль/kǫpělь._


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## Cossue

bearded man said:


> Irony  very much appreciated, especially the word ''conclusively''!


+1 

My two cents:
* In Galicia -and in much of Spain- the night of _San Xoán / San Juan _is also celebrated jumping over bonfires and collecting herbs which are infusioned in fresh cold water all night long. That water is/was considered magical, and it is used to wash mostly young people at the first sun. Do Catholic Church like those celebrations? No, absolutely not. But it have tried very hard to control and Christianize it, as it have happened with other (initially pagan) festivities.

* Both Galician place names / family names Seivane [sejˈβane̝] / Seoane [se̯ɔˈane̝][sɔˈane̝] derive from _Sanioanne _< _(ecclesia / villa) Sancti Iohanni_, and present different outcomes of the older forms. The same can be said about Castilian Spanish patronymic family names Ibáñez / Yáñez < Iohanniz.


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## Christo Tamarin

berndf said:


> It is nothing unusual to have the same biblical name in different assimilated form in a language. _Iohannes _is in German _Johannes, Johann_ or _Hans_.
> _.._
> The assumption that the_ Ivan Kupala_ festival replaced an earlier pagan one is reasonable but that that doesn't mean the name has to be of pagan origin as well. I see no reason to doubt that _Ivan Kupala _(=_the bather_) means anything else then _John the Baptist_ (=_the one who dips sth/so in water_, i.e. _the bather_). The 24th of June is the day of John the Baptists in practically all Churches and not just in Slavic ones.


I agree.

In Bulgaria, the fest of the 24th of June, the birthday of John the Baptist, is known as *Еньовден *(Enyovden). This means that Enyo is another Bulgarian version of the name Ioan besides Yan/Yane/Yanko and Ivan. In Bulgaria, the fest at the 7th of January (the day after the Epiphany) is known as Ivanovden.


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## CyrusSH

Kupala can be a compound word or a loanword, like "couple".

In the ancient time Juno, Roman goddess of marriage, was as important as John, both names are similar, but we know all these festivals in the month of Juno (June) certainly relate more to the first one than the second one, so it is more possible these are different forms of the name of Roman goddess than Jewish prophet.


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## Christo Tamarin

CyrusSH said:


> Kupala can be a compound word or a loanword, like "couple".


Kupala is Slavic. Please see Vasmer. Kupala is strongly related to the Baptism.


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## apmoy70

Cossue said:


> My two cents:
> * In Galicia -and in much of Spain- the night of _San Xoán / San Juan _is also celebrated jumping over bonfires and collecting herbs which are infusioned in fresh cold water all night long. That water is/was considered magical, and it is used to wash mostly young people at the first sun. Do Catholic Church like those celebrations? No, absolutely not. But it have tried very hard to control and Christianize it, as it have happened with other (initially pagan) festivities.


Similar custom in Greece, the eve of June 24 (Birthday of John the Baptist), is celebrated jumping over bonfires while on the day of the feast we have the "silent water" which is considered magical and will "reveal" to the unmarried/young woman her future husband in her sleep if she will keep it under the summer night-sky inside a clay jar on the premise she'll avoid uttering a single word for the whole night (hence "silent water"). The custom is Homeric, known as Κλήδων to the ancient Greeks, which has been "Christianised" and has influenced the name of the Christian feast: St. John of the Kledon (τοῦ Κλήδωνος).


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## Cossue

Wow!  /*Off topic: chacharelas de San Xoán, auga de San Xoán */


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## apmoy70

Cossue said:


> Wow!  /*Off topic: chacharelas de San Xoán, auga de San Xoán */


Our common Greco-Roman (pagan) heritage 
(Apologies for the OT it'll end here)


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## CyrusSH

apmoy70 said:


> Our common Greco-Roman (pagan) heritage
> (Apologies for the OT it'll end here)



Or our common Indo-European heritage? https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.img..1.0.0.gMHm1__qNtU


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## CyrusSH

It can be interesting to know about this Zoroastrian festival (Gahambar):

http://festivals.iloveindia.com/gahambars/the-six-gahambars.html: The second Gahambar is *Maidyoshahem*, which means *"mid-summer"*. It starts from the 101st day and continues till 105th day. This normally falls from June 29th to July 3rd. This Gahambar is connected with *water*. Thus, it symbolizes the creation of water when the primitive universe started to cool, thereby enveloping the globe.


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## berndf

Practically all ancient cultures celebrated the two turns of the sun and the two equinoxes. There is nothing particularly Indo-European about it.


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## yezik

ahvalj said:


> Latin _cupīdō_ "passionate, desire; Cupid" is derived from the verb _cupiō_ "to desire", which has a cognate in the Balto-Slavic *_kūpē-_ "to boil", cp. Lithuanian _kūpėti_ and Old Church Slavonic _kypěti_, as well as a number of other cognates in Balto-Slavic and in other branches (_de Vaan M · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of Latin and the other Italic languages:_ 155 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJS1ZxV2dpdnhzUEk).


Bravo. But , not kipet' - to boil (because of desire but  from kupa - "cово-купление". Купать (to deep in to water) and купить - (to join together).
Compair: Соитие - coit-us.
Бадья - "bath" and - баня - "bene" .  Pagan origin.


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## rushalaim

I thought "*К*у*п*а*л*а" is from "*к*у*п*е*л*ь", or "*к*а*пл*я". A Solar feast, when "flame" and "water" join together. 
Maybe, when the end of December comes, the day of the Roman-god _Janus_, the winter solstice, Jews kindle their candles.


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## Ben Jamin

CyrusSH said:


> It is not just in Wikipedia, just search for Celtic name of Evan. http://babynames.allparenting.com/list/Celtic_Baby_Names/Evan/details/


Avoid all websites with "baby names" in the title. There is almost no greater mess on the web than those sites.


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## sotos

John is of jewish origin, but  in the minds of some Greco-Romans of late antiquity (or later) an osmosis might have happened with the _Juven_- words. Something similar happened with _Jerusalem_ (Gr. Ιερουσαλήμ), approximating the Gr. _Ιερός_ (sacred).


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## Maroseika

CyrusSH said:


> So the author has discovered that he doesn't know what Kupala means!



I'm afraid you misunderstood this point. Max Vasmer clearly states that "Kupala" is from kupat' (to bathe). But the very word kupat' is of uncertain origin, which however hardly has anything to do with Kupala and Ivan.


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