# Conjunctions: so that...



## señorgringo

I am finding many Spanish forms for 'so that'. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

He always arrived early so that he would find a good seat.

Now based on what I have learned the 'so that' part can be expressed in Spanish as follows:

así que
de fin de que
de manera que
de modo que
para que
de forma que

What is the difference between all those and how would one differentiate when to use which? If I translate the example above:

Siempre llegaba temprano, así que encontraría un buen asiento.

Seems to me 'así que' feels most natural. How about the others?

Muchas gracias de antemano. Y feliz navidad!


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## JennyTW

"Así que" is no good here. It translates "so" on it's own. Of the rest, "para que" would be my first choice. It's the shortest and the most commonly used.


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## Rondivu

"Siempre llegaba temprano para coger un buen sitio" is to me the most natural way of translating the OP.
I think neither of your suggestions work here.
Also, siempre llegaba temprano con el fin de coger...
Now if you translate the OP as follows...

Siempre llegaba temprano para que pudiera coger un buen sitio..
Then "para  que" makes sense, as Jenny says.

I edit my post just to say that the last example I gave does not sound very natural. I would certainly say...
Siempre llegaba temprano para poder coger un buen sitio.
Saludos


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## donbill

Rondivu said:


> I edit my post just to say that the last example I gave does not sound very natural. I would certainly say...
> Siempre llegaba temprano para poder coger un buen sitio.
> Saludos



Thanks, Rondivu, for confirming what I thought was appropriate here. Because the second part of the sentence does not introduce a new subject, the construction with the infinitive is the most economical one to use. I think that we gringos have a tendency to overuse subordinate clauses, perhaps because we think that we must use the subjunctive whenever it's possible, though not necessary, to do so.


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## Rondivu

dorealised3930839 said:
			
		

> Thanks, Rondivu, for confirming what I thought was appropriate here. Because the second part of the sentence does not introduce a new subject, the construction with the infinitive is the most economical one to use. I think that we gringos have a tendency to overuse subordinate clauses, perhaps because we think that we must use the subjunctive whenever it's possible, though not necessary, to do so.




I didn't realise the second part of the sentence needs a new subject to use the subjunctive until I've  read your post. I must say you are right. 

Siempre trabajé mucho para que mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.

Siempre trabajé mucho  para poder darle (yo, no new subject) lo mejor a mis hijos.



Good point, Donbill


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## Cambria

I'm afraid you can't use any of these expressions with your sentence:



señorgringo said:


> He always arrived early so that he would find a good seat.
> 
> así que
> de fin de que *although: con el fin de*  *And even, although not so used: a fin de*
> de manera que
> de modo que
> para que *although: para*
> de forma que



Siempre llegaba pronto con el fin de encontrar un buen asiento.
Siempre llegaba pronto a fin de encontrar un buen asiento.
Siempre llegaba pronto para (poder) encontrar un buen asiento.


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## Rondivu

Cambria said:


> I'm afraid you can't use any of these expressions with your sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> Siempre llegaba pronto con el fin de encontrar un buen asiento.
> Siempre llegaba pronto a fin de encontrar un buen asiento.
> Siempre llegaba pronto para (poder) encontrar un buen asiento.



Agreed!


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## gengo

JennyTW said:


> "Así que" is no good here. It translates "so" on it's own.



Right, and just to give señorgringo an example:

Me quedo sin plata, así que no noy a ir al cine.
I'm out of money, so I'm not going to go to the movie.


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## Cambria

gengo said:


> Right, and just to give señorgringo an example:
> 
> Me quedo sin plat*a*, así que no voy a ir al cine.
> I'm out of money, so I'm not going to go to the movie.



Although I have to say that in Spain we don't use "plata", we'd say "pasta" or just "dinero".


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## gengo

Ha!  Thanks for pointing out my typo (now fixed).  It's lunch time here, and I guess I was hungry while trying to type plata!


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## Cambria

gengo said:


> Ha!  Thanks for pointing out my typo (now fixed).  It's lunch time here, and I guess I was hungry while trying to type plata!



Ha! Don't worry. I was so puzzled when I read it, and then I realized!


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## Cenzontle

Dear señorgringo, 
you asked about differentiating those connective expressions, but got sidetracked in the matter of the *change of subject*:
• "*I *arrived...so that *I *could find..."—no change of subject, tends to use the infinitive.  
• "*I *worked so that *my children* could have..."—different subject in the second clause, so this is the place for your expressions with "que" and a full clause, 
with its verb in the subjunctive if you are talking about a *purpose *(as you seem to be, in looking for a good seat or working for your children's sake).


Let's start with a matter of form: Your second expression, "*de *fin de que" has virtually no use in modern Spanish.  Replace it with "*a *fin de que".


I agree with JennyTW (and gengo (#8), before _he_ got sidetracked) that "'Así que' is no good here", because it means "with the *result *that"; 
in English this is more often simply "so", rather than "so that".  (And the _que_-clause describing the result will have its verb in the indicative.)


"A fin de que" and "para que" both refer to a *purpose *(rather than a *result*), and they are automatically followed by a subjunctive.  As Jenny said, "para que" is the most commonly used.


The remaining expressions in your list—"de modo que", "de manera que", and "de forma que" (in order here from most frequent to least frequent use)—are equivalent in meaning and syntax. 
The trick with them is that they can be used to mean either "with the *purpose *that" (followed by the subjunctive) or "with the *result *that" (with the indicative).


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## señorgringo

Thanks to everyone for the elaborate responses - special thanks to Cenzontle for the summary and Rondivue for reminding us of the subjunctive rule. So it seems that 'a fin de que' and 'para que' are most often used in regards to achieving a purpose. The others are valid as well but probably used more in a literary context. Finally 'así que' is used in the context of expressing a result of the previous condition - IMO it can be replaced by 'therefore' (luego, por lo tanto, por eso?). To summarize via examples:

Condition followed by result (therefore):

Me perdí el autobús, *así que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Me perdí el autobús, *de modo que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Me perdí el autobús, *de manera que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Me perdí el autobús, *de forma que* llegué tarde al trabajo.

Action followed by purpose (in order to):

With subjunctive:

Siempre trabajé mucho *para que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de modo que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de manera que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de forma que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.

Without subjunctive:

Siempre trabajé mucho *para* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos. (no 2nd subject - no subjuntive - crystal)
Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de modo (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de manera (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
Siempre trabajé mucho *de forma (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.

I hope I got this right - this is a bit more complicated than I had hoped. ¡Castellano no es fácil!! 

Muchas gracias - os deseo paz y sosiego en esta Fiestas Navideñas junto a todos los de vuestro agrado.


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## Cambria

señorgringo said:


> Thanks to everyone for the elaborate responses - special thanks to Cenzontle. So it seems that 'a fin de que' and 'para que' are most often used in regards to achieving a purpose. The others are valid as well but probably used more in a literary context.
> 
> Muchas gracias - os deseo paz y sosiego en esta Fiestas Navideñas junto a todos los de vuestro agrado.



No, no, no, the others are *not* valid as a translation for "so that". Not in a literary context nor in any other kind of context.


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## Cenzontle

And "de modo que" is very much a part of spoken language,
sometimes even being used at the beginning of an utterance as a "pseudo-transitional" connector with a who-knows-what that preceded it.


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## señorgringo

Cambria said:


> No, no, no, the others are *not* valid as a translation for "so that". Not in a literary context nor in any other kind of context.



NOW I'm confused - how about my examples? Which ones are wrong? Sorry for being such a knucklehead...


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## Cambria

señorgringo said:


> NOW I'm confused - how about my examples? Which ones are wrong? Sorry for being such a knucklehead...



Look at my post #6 *all* the crossed out options are incorrect in this sentence. That means, unfortunately, all of your examples.


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## Cambria

Oh, wait! I see that you have edited your post, now, so bear in mind that my post #14 was written *before* you edited yours. I was referring to your first post, not to your new set of examples.


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## Cambria

señorgringo said:


> Condition followed by result (therefore):
> 
> Me perdí el autobús, *así que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, *de modo que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, *de manera que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, *de forma que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> 
> Action followed by purpose (in order to):
> 
> With subjunctive:
> 
> Siempre trabajé mucho *para que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de modo que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de manera que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de forma que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
> 
> Without subjunctive:
> 
> Siempre trabajé mucho *para* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos. (no 2nd subject - no subjuntive - crystal)
> Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de modo (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de manera (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.
> Siempre trabajé mucho *de forma (que?)* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.



Ok, you've got it much better, this time, although I'm not quite sure about the ones I've put a cross on. They don't sound right, to me, I think "de modo/manera/forma que" can't be used that way. But let's wait and see what other natives say, it's too late in the night and I can't think so properly as to give you a reason...


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## Pablove

Cambria said:


> Ok, you've got it much better, this time, although I'm not quite sure about the ones I've put a cross on. They don't sound right, to me, I think "de modo/manera/forma que" can't be used that way. But let's wait and see what other natives say, it's too late in the night and I can't think so properly as to give you a reason...



It seems like we are having a lot of disagreements today  
I think the first three phrases are ok, but off course it sound much better ''para que''. About the other three, I agree are wrong


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## Cambria

Pablove said:


> It seems like we are having a lot of disagreements today
> I think the first three phrases are ok, but off course it sound much better ''para que''. About the other three, I agree are wrong



Oh, well, sure. Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly: the first three sentences I marked are the ones I am uncertain about.The last three are definitely wrong!


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## Rondivu

señorgringo said:


> Condition followed by result (therefore):
> 
> Me perdí el autobús, así que llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, de modo que llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, de manera que llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Me perdí el autobús, de forma que llegué tarde al trabajo.




"Me perdí el autobús" is incorrect (Perdí el autobús, without "me").


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## señorgringo

Pablove said:


> It seems like we are having a lot of disagreements today
> I think the first three phrases are ok, but off course it sound much better ''para que''. About the other three, I agree are wrong



Well guys - see below - this is what I was told:



> The remaining expressions in your list—"de modo que", "de manera que", and "de forma que" (in order here from most frequent to least frequent use)—are equivalent in meaning and syntax.
> The trick with them is that they can be used to mean either "with the *purpose that" (followed by the subjunctive) or "with the result that" (with the indicative).*



Perhaps if you guys could agree on the rules? ;-)


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## Rondivu

señorgringo said:


> Perhaps if you guys could agree on the rules? ;-)



The rule is fine. 
See this thread for the usage of "de modo que".

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=494508&langid=24


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## señorgringo

Cambria said:


> Ok, you've got it much better, this time, although I'm not quite sure about the ones I've put a cross on. They don't sound right, to me, I think "de modo/manera/forma que" can't be used that way. But let's wait and see what other natives say, it's too late in the night and I can't think so properly as to give you a reason...



Nah - you're in Spain and I'm just a few hundred km South of you - so I'll stick with your version ;-)

Gracias!


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## señorgringo

Alright - since I screwed this up - here's yet another try at this:

Condition followed by result (therefore):

Perdí el autobús, *así que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Perdí el autobús, *de modo que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Perdí el autobús, *de manera que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
Perdí el autobús, *de forma que* llegué tarde al trabajo.

Action followed by purpose (in order to):

With subjunctive:

Siempre trabajé mucho *para que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.
Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de que* mis hijos tuvieran lo mejor.


Without subjunctive:

Siempre trabajé mucho *para* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos. (no 2nd subject - no subjuntive - crystal)
Siempre trabajé mucho *a fin de* poder darle lo mejor a mis hijos.

I hope this finds the approval of you natives


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## altorange

señorgringo said:
			
		

> Condition followed by result (therefore):
> 
> Perdí el autobús, *así que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Perdí el autobús, *de modo que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Perdí el autobús, *de manera que* llegué tarde al trabajo.
> Perdí el autobús, *de forma que* llegué tarde al trabajo.



My understanding of the "de modo/manera/forma que" constructions you're trying to use is that they're references to the _way_ in which an action is realized. In the case of missing the bus, how you missed it is irrelevant to your arriving to work late. The point is simply that you missed it and because of that, you showed up late. My sense of them is more like "in such a way that", rather than "so [that]". If I'm wrong, please correct me.


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## Cenzontle

> My understanding of the "de modo/manera/forma que" constructions you're trying to use is that they're references to the _way in which an action is realized. _


I take a different view: I would not take the "modo", "manera", "forma" word too literally.  In other words, "de modo que" has taken on a life of its own, independent from the meaning of "modo".
If you wish to stress the way in which something is done, in using these phrases, you can insert "tal":  "...de tal modo que..."
Prof. Davies's _Corpus del Espaõl_ can give you a slew of sentences with "de modo que" in context.
I'll give just a couple of examples where the meaning of "modo" is not present (but there are many):
• "Tampoco he participado nunca en ningún concurso de piano, *de modo que no he podido sentir esa sensación.*"
("Nor have I ever taken part in any piano competition, *so* I haven't been able to experience that feeling.") 
Here, "de modo que" means "as a result".  There's nothing about the way in which I have (not) participated in piano contests.
• "Esas personas, cuyos nombres no fueron revelados, llevaron en el vehículo unos 1,295 galones de gasolina y 5 cajas de lubricantes para reabastecer la lancha, *de modo que pudiera retornar a Colombia.*"
("Those people, whose names were not revealed, took with them in the vehicle some 1295 gal. of gas and 5 boxes of lubricants to restock the boat, so it could return to Colombia.")
Here, it means "with the intention that".  There are not various ways of taking gasoline in a vehicle, only one of which enables a boat to return to Colombia.


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## altorange

Cenzontle said:


> I take a different view: I would not take the "modo", "manera", "forma" word too literally.  In other words, "de modo que" has taken on a life of its own, independent from the meaning of "modo".
> If you wish to stress the way in which something is done, in using these phrases, you can insert "tal":  "...de tal modo que..."
> Prof. Davies's _Corpus del Espaõl_ can give you a slew of sentences with "de modo que" in context.
> I'll give just a couple of examples where the meaning of "modo" is not present (but there are many):
> • "Tampoco he participado nunca en ningún concurso de piano, *de modo que no he podido sentir esa sensación.*"
> ("Nor have I ever taken part in any piano competition, *so* I haven't been able to experience that feeling.")
> Here, "de modo que" means "as a result".  There's nothing about the way in which I have (not) participated in piano contests.
> • "Esas personas, cuyos nombres no fueron revelados, llevaron en el vehículo unos 1,295 galones de gasolina y 5 cajas de lubricantes para reabastecer la lancha, *de modo que pudiera retornar a Colombia.*"
> ("Those people, whose names were not revealed, took with them in the vehicle some 1295 gal. of gas and 5 boxes of lubricants to restock the boat, so it could return to Colombia.")
> Here, it means "with the intention that".  There are not various ways of taking gasoline in a vehicle, only one of which enables a boat to return to Colombia.



Okay, so it can be used for both purpose and result, as in señorgringo's examples. Is that true of the other constructions using forma and manera? And if it's the case that "de modo que" can be used to indicate purpose, why was it marked as incorrect on the first page? Is it simply a preference, not a rule?

_Edit: It now occurs to me that the reason they were marked as incorrect on the first page was because there's no form of, say, "de modo que" in which "que" can be excluded if the subject is the same. To take your first example, you could never say "... de modo no haber podido sentir ...". In the original poster's example, using "de modo que" probably sounds wordy, especially in contrast to the more efficient "... para poder/coger/etc ...", so it was marked as incorrect. Also, I see now that most references to the way in which an action is done will carry "tal", as you described, and that the plain versions serve either the purpose/result functions. Thanks! I hope I only confused myself!_


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