# Hindi, Urdu: the level of oceans is rising



## Chhaatr

_The level of oceans is rising._

 As a Hindi speaker I would say "mahaasaagaroN kaa star uTh rahaa hai".

As an Urdu speaker how would you say this?


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## marrish

Chhaatr said:


> _The level of oceans is rising._
> 
> As a Hindi speaker I would say "mahaasaagaroN kaa star uTh rahaa hai".
> 
> As an Urdu speaker how would you say this?


I'd say بحروں کی سطح بلند ہو رہی ہے _baHroN kii sat_H bulaNd ho rahii hae_.


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## Wolverine9

I think _samundroN _could also be used for the sample sentences in both Urdu and Hindi (for the latter, also _samudroN_).


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> I think _samundroN _could also be used for the sample sentences in both Urdu and Hindi (for the latter, also _samudroN_).


And the former _sam*a*nd*a*roN/samund*a*roN_ .


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## Qureshpor

Even perhaps..samundaroN/samandaroN kii satH baRh rahii hai.


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## marrish

^ _un kaa paanii baRh rahaa hae jab kih sat_H bulaNd yaa uuNchii ho rahii hae._ After all this is my perception, and given the vast plurality of our language, you might be right.


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## Faylasoof

As an alternative to _samandaroN_ and بحروں  _baHroN (_the Indic plural of بحر baHr), we also have بحار biHaar and بحور buHuur as a plural of baHr:
 بحار \ بحور كی سطح بلند ہو رہی ہے
biHaar / buHuur kii saTH buland ho rahii hae.


Given the context, good "urduudaanaan"  would easily be able to tell _in speech_ the difference between _baHroN_ and _bahroN_ and _biHaar_ vs. _bihaar_!

Edit: Strictly speaking بحر baHr = sea and not an ocean although we can use the word to mean both.


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## Chhaatr

_aap sab kaa bahut shukriyah!_


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## marrish

_jii ham aap kii xidmat meN Haazir haiN. 

aap jo Hindi-go haiN aap paiGhaam nambar 5 aur 6 par kuchh bataa'eN ge?_


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## Chhaatr

_^ jii Huzuur, zaruur!

3aam taur pe apne yaar dostoN se baat karte waqt maiN kahuuN gaa "samudroN kaa paanii baRh rahaa hai" yaa phir formal register meN "mahaasaagaroN kaa jal-star uTh rahaa hai"

rahii baat "satah" (सतह) kii to maiN kahuuN gaa "samudroN/mahaasaagaroN kii satah uTh rahii hai".  lekin aap beshak keh sakte haiN kii "satah" uuNchii ho rahii hai yaa baRh rahii hai.  maiN shaayad in donoN lafzoN kaa yahaaN isti3maal na karuuN.  diigar hindi zabaan wale shaayad is se ittifaaq na kareN to voh bhii durust hogaa kyoNkih ek hii baat kehne ke ka'ii aNdaaz hote haiN aur lafzoN kaa intixaab apnii apnii pasaNd pe bhii mabnii hai._


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## Qureshpor

samundaroN kii satH meN izaafah ho rahaa hai......another possibility (for Urdu)


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## Chhaatr

Does _baHr_ mean ocean in Urdu?


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## Qureshpor

Chhaatr said:


> Does _baHr_ mean ocean in Urdu?


As far as Urdu is concerned, from a geographical perspective, baHr is ocean and buHairah is sea. But, this is not a sharp definion.

baHr-i-Hind: Indian Ocean

buHairah-i-3arab: The Arabian sea

In Arabic baHr means sea and not ocean.This I suspect is what F. SaaHib meant in # post 7

baHr-i-qulzam : The Red Sea

baHr-i-aswad: The Black Sea

This is all from memory from my school days. So, I hope I've got it right.


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## marrish

^There is no sharp difference and I can follow Faylasoof SaaHib's train of thought however you QP SaaHib have hit the nail on the head - it is for this very distinction between _baHr_ and _buHairah_ that I've (and F. SaaHib too) chosen _baHr_ for ocean. I also remember some geographical names and that is why I found _baHr_ fitting. Otherwise I consider _samandar/samundar_ also good.

_izaafah_ is also very good - thanks for this one.


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## Wolverine9

Is there a reason why Red Sea and Black Sea have _baHr _while Arabian Sea has _buHairah_?


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> ^There is no sharp difference and I can follow Faylasoof SaaHib's train of thought however you QP SaaHib have hit the nail on the head - it is for this very distinction between _baHr_ and _buHairah_ that I've (and F. SaaHib too) chosen _baHr_ for ocean. I also remember some geographical names and that is why I found _baHr_ fitting. Otherwise I consider _samandar/samundar_ also good.
> 
> _izaafah_ is also very good - thanks for this one.


 marrish SaaHib, we all agree that _baHr_ is commonly used for both sea and ocean in Urdu as is _samandar,_ however,_ buHairah _is _not common_ for sea in Urdu! Hence my above reply.... and unlike Arabic, from where we got _baHr_, we don't use _muHeeT_ (this too from Arabic) for an _ocean_ in common language. Instead this word has other usages.


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## Faylasoof

Wolverine9 said:


> Is there a reason why Red Sea and Black Sea have _baHr _while Arabian Sea has _buHairah_?


 Actually, in Urdu the _Arabian Sea_ is commonly called _baHr-e-3arab_ !


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, we all agree that _baHr_ is commonly used for both sea and ocean in Urdu as is _samandar,_ however,_ buHairah _is _not common_ for sea in Urdu! Hence my above reply.... and unlike Arabic, from where we got _baHr_, we don't use _muHeeT_ (this too from Arabic) for an _ocean_ in common language. Instead this word has other usages.


Yes, we agree upon this and I agree that _buHairah_ is not common but for maps.


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, we all agree that _baHr_ is commonly used for both sea and ocean in Urdu as is _samandar,_ however,_ buHairah _is _not common_ for sea in Urdu! Hence my above reply.... and unlike Arabic, from where we got _baHr_, we don't use _muHeeT_ (this too from Arabic) for an _ocean_ in common language. Instead this word has other usages.



I take it that from an adaabi or high register outlook muheet is usable in an equivalent manner to Arabic I.e. as an ocean and perhaps that is the distinction you were alluding to by stating 'common language'?

Otherwise commonly few distinguish between sea and ocean in the Urdu language. However its common to call the ocean bahar, in common speech beher and the sea samandar. Bahar is near exclusively used for ocean unless one is explicitly mentioning a particular sea where mixed usages come into play I.e bahar e/ al/ul arab etc as you have mentioned.

With regards to distinctions buhairah and bahar are most expressly understood as they have a set pattern. In hindi perhaps you could say Samandar and Maha samandar to do exactly that. Or sagaar and maha saagar.


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## marrish

Sheikh_14 said:


> I take it that from an adaabi or high register outlook muheet is usable in an equivalent manner to Arabic I.e. as an ocean and perhaps that is the distinction you were alluding to by stating 'common language'?


If I answer in absence of the addressee I hope I won't be impolite since that part of Faylasoof SaaHib's post was in response to mine.

I don't agree with your reasoning, Sheikh_14. In common language, as Faylasoof SaaHib was kind to state, it has other usages, connected in meaning with the word "aHaatah" meaning an area or a territory or anything which is bordered. muHiit is "enclosing" or "surrounding". It means also as in "_Urduu kaa muHiit honaa_" - a person who does have a very good command of Urdu.

I agree with him also on the point of not using _muHiit_ at all for an ocean in Urdu. Actually my post is redundant in this part because if I hadn't agreed with any statement where I had taken part of the discussion, I would have certainly aired my views.

Now I have seen that a dictionary has, funnily enough, _baHr-e-muHiit_ for "ocean" but it is still _baHr_ which is the main word here. Personally it never occurred to me in my _adabii_ readings.


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## Alfaaz

How would forum members define محیط in each of the following examples?

میرِ سپاہ نا سزا، لشکریاں شکستہ صف
آہ! وہ تیرِ نیم کش جس کا نہ ہو کوئی ہدف
تیرے محیط میں کہیں گوہرِ زندگی نہیں
ڈھونڈ چکا میں موج موج، دیکھ چکا صدف صدف

(بالِ جبریل) اقبال

تو ہے محیط بے کراں ، میں ہوں ذرا سی آب جو
یا مجھے ہمکنار کر یا مجھے بے کنار کر

(بالِ جبریل) اقبال


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## marrish

^ Clearly it's "ocean", "sea". Good find! Not part of the common language anyway.


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## Alfaaz

^ Thanks. It seems to also be used (sometimes) in scientific literature.


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## Sheikh_14

Shukriya Alfaaz Saahib for following up on my case. Couldn't have done it better myself. Guess muhiit is not restricted to an ahatta but an "expanse". Thus when Marrish Saahib pointed to Muhiit e ilm it could be perceived as either being an expanse or ocean of knowledge. An ocean too is an expanse after all, of water.Thence, one can conclude that muhiit cannot be attributed to the itty bitty but only to the sizeable. 
Questions always do arrive in Urdu with regards to technical vocabulary for which work seriously needs to be done. Is anyone here familiar with the song by strings called Sar kiye yeh pahaar? If so do you think "Dariya'oN kii GehraiyooN mai tujhe dhoonda hai" means depths of rivers or the seas?


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## tonyspeed

Chhaatr said:


> _The level of oceans is rising._
> 
> As a Hindi speaker I would say "mahaasaagaroN kaa star uTh rahaa hai".
> 
> As an Urdu speaker how would you say this?



mahaasaagar vs samudra (samundar) - in meN kya fark hai?


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## Sheikh_14

tonyspeed said:


> mahaasaagar vs samudra (samundar) - in meN kya fark hai?



Well Samundar is most certainly Sea, MahaasagaaroN (Mahaa obviously being the Hindi word for great) will by extension be the Ocean. Btw do hindi speakers use Sagaar and Samundar interchangeably? Secondly is MahaaSamundar also used or you have forged distinct boundaries?


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## littlepond

To answer you from my point of view, Sheikh jii, both are used interchangeably, but "samudr" is the most common rather than these two (both "saagar" and "samundar" being more found in songs and poetry, rather; "dariyaa" is even more literary).
I have always heard "mahaasaagar" for an ocean, never "mahaasamundar" or "mahaasamudr".


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## Sheikh_14

littlepond said:


> To answer you from my point of view, Sheikh jii, both are used interchangeably, but "samudr" is the most common rather than these two (both "saagar" and "samundar" being more found in songs and poetry, rather; "dariyaa" is even more literary).
> I have always heard "mahaasaagar" for an ocean, never "mahaasamundar" or "mahaasamudr".



The samudr/samundar issue is merely a matter of phonetics I would think as the Samundar we use in Urdu is widely heard amongst Hindi speakers. Besides that your observations' hit the nail on the head as saagar is most certainly poetic and used to denote a sea as in Ankhoon ke Saagar by Fusion or Shafqat Amanat Ali. The rest with regards to designations' was quite helpful for which I am grateful.


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## mundiya

Sheikh_14 said:


> The samudr/samundar issue is merely a matter of phonetics I would think as the Samundar we use in Urdu is widely heard amongst Hindi speakers. Besides that your observations' hit the nail on the head as saagar is most certainly poetic and used to denote a sea as in Ankhoon ke Saagar by Fusion or Shafqat Amanat Ali.



Yes, I agree.  "samundar" is typically the word I use.  Another common variant in Hindi and Urdu is "samandar".  As for mahaasamudra and mahaasamundar, they are used but are rare in comparison to mahaasaagar, so many will not be familiar with them.  "saagar" is not common in everyday speech but is common in technical terminology along with "samudra", while "samundar" is rare in this context.  Example: Red Sea in Hindi is "laal saagar" or "laal samudra"; Indian Ocean is "hind mahaasaagar".


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## Sheikh_14

mundiya said:


> Yes, I agree.  "samundar" is typically the word I use.  Another common variant in Hindi and Urdu is "samandar".  As for mahaasamudra and mahaasamundar, they are used but are rare in comparison to mahaasaagar, so many will not be familiar with them.  "saagar" is not common in everyday speech but is common in technical terminology along with "samudra", while "samundar" is rare in this context.".



I see, I was starting to believe that perhaps Hindi had devised a set distinction whereby mahaSaagar was ocean and Mahaasamu/andar a great Sea but it seems the two are merely interchangeable. Perhaps the lack of usage makes this a potentiality. In the example given above in my second last post do you think dariyaaN is connoting a sea or a river?


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## mundiya

Sheikh_14 said:


> I see, I was starting to believe that perhaps Hindi had devised a set distinction whereby mahaSaagar was ocean and Mahaasamu/andar a great Sea but it seems the two are merely interchangeable. Perhaps the lack of usage makes this a potentiality.



An ocean is a great sea.  



Sheikh_14 said:


> In the example given above in my second last post do you think dariyaaN is connoting a sea or a river?



I assume you are referring to the post below.



Sheikh_14 said:


> Questions always do arrive in Urdu with regards to technical vocabulary  for which work seriously needs to be done. Is anyone here familiar with  the song by strings called Sar kiye yeh pahaar? If so do you think  "Dariya'oN kii GehraiyooN mai tujhe dhoonda hai" means depths of rivers  or the seas?



To me it means "seas" because of the context.  The depth of rivers is not as remarkable as the depth of the seas.


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## Sheikh_14

mundiya said:


> An ocean is a great sea.


Technically yes, but in speech and writing there is a subtle distinction between the two. An Ocean is an enormous expanse of water and as you say a Great Sea. However, you can speak of the greatness of a sea without implying that it is in fact an Ocean. That is the distinction I thought perhaps wrongly that MahaaSamandar could bring with it, in other words that would be strictly speaking of one technical designation and not implying that it is another.

I assume you are referring to the post below. 
Indeed I was and much appreciated.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> Yes, I agree.  "samundar" is typically the word I use.  Another common variant in Hindi and Urdu is "samandar".  As for mahaasamudra and mahaasamundar, they are used but are rare in comparison to mahaasaagar, so many will not be familiar with them.  "saagar" is not common in everyday speech but is common in technical terminology along with "samudra", while "samundar" is rare in this context.  Example: Red Sea in Hindi is "laal saagar" or "laal samudra"; Indian Ocean is "hind mahaasaagar".


Indeed you are right about Urdu, it's samandar for, let's guess, 80% and samundar for the remaining 20%. For Hindi I think that building a word with mahaa (from Sanskrit) would require samudra or saagara (as in Sanskrit) and not samandar or samundar because it sounds quite dissonant.


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> For Hindi I think that building a word with  mahaa (from Sanskrit) would require samudra or saagara (as in Sanskrit)  and not samandar or samundar because it sounds quite dissonant.



mahaa-  is usually with unmodified Sanskrit words, but that is not always the  case.  For example, there is mahaaDol.  Here is a book that uses "mahaasamandar". 

"mujhe apne chaaro.n or jahaa.n tak merii drishTi jaatii hai, kaalaa *mahaasamandar *nazar aataa hai..."


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## mundiya

Sheikh_14 said:


> Technically yes, but in speech and writing there is a subtle distinction between the two. An Ocean is an enormous expanse of water and as you say a Great Sea. However, you can speak of the greatness of a sea without implying that it is in fact an Ocean.



That is true.  For example, the Mediterranean Sea compared to the Aral Sea.  The two could be distinguished by saying "baRaa samundar" vs. "chhoTaa samundar".


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