# у + genitive?



## AJ2018

I'm trying to figure out if this usage of the preposition "у" actually means: "regarding," or "when it comes to ..."

Психологи говорят, что *у *женщин лучше работает интуиция, а *у *мужчин логика.

Translation: Psychologist says that _when it comes to _women, they use their intuition more, and _when it comes to _men, they use logic.

Is this the idea that the "y" is trying to get across here?


----------



## Maroseika

In this case yes, translation looks good. But more genreally, I'd say "у" + Gen. expresses somebody's or something's property, feature etc.: 
У машины мощный мотор.
У этой машины спустило колесо.
У нее плохое настроение.
У природы нет плохой погоды.


----------



## Awwal12

AJ2018 said:


> I'm trying to figure out if this usage of the preposition "у" actually means: "regarding," or "when it comes to ..."


Yes, it kind of restricts the predicate here, but don't forget that "у кого-л." always creates some sort of underlying possessive relationships as well.
For instance, when you say "у женщин лучше работает интуиция", you mean specifically the women's intuition, not someone else's. (Partially cross-posted.)


----------



## AJ2018

Awwal12 said:


> Yes, it kind of restricts the predicate here, but don't forget that "у кого-л." always creates some sort of underlying possessive relationships as well.
> For instance, when you say "у женщин лучше работает интуиция", you mean specifically the women's intuition, not someone else's. (Partially cross-posted.)



Thanks. I'm glad we gave this issue it's OWN thread. It needs it. This very nuance is not listed in ANY of the many grammar books on Russian grammar. It really deserves to be listed in the definitions on WordReference. Many reference works only talk about У меня есть, or Я у Антона (I'm at Anton's place). But they don't talk about this particular nuance that we highlighted here. It's only by talking to people that I was able to connect the dots. 

These samples sentences come from the famous Поехали books aimed at teaching A1 level students Russian. I'm surprised they would introduce students to such nuanced usage of *Y *at such an early stage, but the man who wrote the book *Станислав Чернышов *is extremely experienced in teaching Russian to foreigners, so, I certainly won't question his judgment.

Thanks all!


----------



## pimlicodude

Er... у doesn't actually mean "when it comes to; regarding", although it might be considered a functional equivalent in some contexts. 

When it comes to = что касается, относительно, по поводу, в отношении, если говорить о.

The literal meaning of у is "by, near, at", and it comes from a Proto-Indo-European word meaning those things.

There was no original verb "to have" in PIE. The Spanish say "tengo", which comes from the Latin "teneo", "I hold". The French "avoir" comes from Latin "habere", originally "to hold", from a PIE root meaning "to grab, take". The English "to have" comes from a PIE root meaning "take, seize, catch".

The Russian у меня есть literally means "by me there is". As Maroseika says, it it used to show things or properties a person or thing has. 

у женщин лучше работает интуиция: you can look on this as "when it comes to women", or "with women" (although у does not mean "with"), but it is the same preposition meaning "by, at near". And that is why Awwal12 points out it has to be a property (intuition) that belongs to the women themselves. 

Maybe the author of your textbook should have explained all this, but I think he may be trying to get students of Russian to take in the natural idiom.


----------



## AJ2018

_*When it comes to*_; or _*regarding *_is, indeed, going in my glossary. Both of those phrases clearly convey that the matter in question is referring to women. I cannot tell you how many times I have come across this construction, in particular, in Russian texts, yet nothing is mentioned about this specific nuance in grammar books. And the fact that we are talking about a y + genitive construction is all the more reason for it to be mentioned. So, again, glad we're having this discussion. It's warranted.

And just because I might say: "when it comes to," or "regarding" working from Russian INTO English, that doesn't mean that I would use that same construction working from English INTO Russian.

But it's important that people have a better idea of the realm of possibilities when it comes to this specific nuance, which, again, is not covered enough in most grammar books.


----------



## splinny

AJ2018 said:


> Is this the idea that the "y" is trying to get across here?


What about "for"?
"for women intuition works better, and for men logic"

Or just "women have better intuition, and men have better logic"?


----------



## pimlicodude

splinny said:


> What about "for"?
> "for women intuition works better, and for men logic"
> 
> Or just "women have better intuition, and men have better logic"?


I like the second translation you offered. У just doesn't mean "regarding" and can't be used as a kind of Chinese-style "topic marker". But I agree that natural idiomatic translations are desirable and can involve all of the phrases the OP suggested.


----------



## nizzebro

It's worth noting that cases like this where an abstract notion "works", are quite limited - e.g. у них хорошо работает интуиция/воображение/логика (intuition, imagination, logic) and maybe a couple of other "actors" that aren't  coming to me now. The verb работать is itself way abstract in that sense. A little more common are cases where some kind of change is the point - у него появляется/возникает чувство/подозрение/уверенность (feeling/suspicion/assurance arises),  у него пропадает надежда/терпение (hope/patience goes away), у него начинается паника (panic starts). Still, the matter is which collocations are possible.

Another deal is body parts, voice and other physical elements that hurt, break, go ahead etc - with referring to the owner through that "у + gen".


----------



## Awwal12

AJ2018 said:


> I'm surprised they would introduce students to such nuanced usage of *Y *at such an early stage, but the man who wrote the book *Станислав Чернышов *is extremely experienced in teaching Russian to foreigners, so, I certainly won't question his judgment.


Well, probably because these constructions are fairly common, and often it may be difficult to construct natural sentences without using them (except maybe in the most formal registers of speech). Often there are alternative variants using plain possessives, but there may be important pragmatic differences, and then the variant with "у" turns out to be the unmarked one.
"У нас в министерстве" (where "у нас" externally modifies the meaning of "в министерстве") simply tells us that the speaker works at some ministry together with other people and he'll talk about what happens there.
"В нашем министерстве" (with the canonical, internal possessive pronoun "наш"), on the other hand, additionally stresses the possessive relationship, which will likely imply that the speaker is going to contrast his ministry to another one, or that the phrase is going to be emotionally charged (with pride or with sad resentment), etc.


----------



## pimlicodude

nizzebro said:


> Another deal is body parts, voice and other physical elements that hurt, break, go ahead etc - with referring to the owner through that "у + gen".


Great reminder, yes: у меня болит голова, my head hurts.


----------



## AJ2018

splinny said:


> What about "for"?
> "for women intuition works better, and for men logic"
> 
> Or just "women have better intuition, and men have better logic"?



Excellent solution. That rings so true in English. Thanks for the contribution.


----------



## AJ2018

pimlicodude said:


> I like the second translation you offered. У just doesn't mean "regarding" and can't be used as a kind of Chinese-style "topic marker". But I agree that natural idiomatic translations are desirable and can involve all of the phrases the OP suggested.



It's not about the words. I'm not trying to render the words. I'm trying to render the idea. So, there is no ONE way to render this. Thank you for your contribution anyway.


----------



## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> У just doesn't mean "regarding" and can't be used as a kind of Chinese-style "topic marker".


It can't, but the word order plays that role. Even in the original example, where a clear restriction seems to be the case, if we change the order, the meaning changes as well.

У женщин работает интуиция, а у мужчин логика. (As for) women, they have intuition, while men have logic
Интуиция работает у женщин, а логика у мужчин. (As for) intuition, it is what women have, while logic is what men have. (as e.g.a remark addressed to someone who messed up which to whom belongs).
(translation is exaggerated to show the inner logic).


----------



## AJ2018

nizzebro said:


> It can't, but the word order plays that role. Even in the original example, where a clear restriction seems to be the case, if we change the order, the meaning changes as well.
> 
> У женщин работает интуиция, а у мужчин логика. (As for) women, they have intuition, while men have logic
> Интуиция работает у женщин, а логика у мужчин. (As for) intuition, it is what women have, while logic is what men have. (as e.g.a remark addressed to someone who messed up which is which).
> (translation is exaggerated to show the inner logic).



Brilliant! Thank you @nizzebro for "exaggerating" the translation, if you will. But I will not fault you. You never know when that might come in handy. A key exercise I do is translating the same phrase six different ways while maintaining the same meaning. It's an exercise that interpreters often do as a training exercise; it increases your linguistic dexterity. So, there's nothing wrong with that. But I really feel what you're trying to convey.

Excellent contribution!


----------



## nizzebro

Still, the shift in emphasis can reverse these again (at least the first version), but in writing, it needs support from the context.


----------



## Rosett

AJ2018 said:


> preposition "у" actually means: "regarding," or "when it comes to ..."


В академических и им подобных статьях на месте _у_ напишут _in_:
_in rats, in dogs, in men, in women,_
а остальное - как обычно_._
Bladder infection _in men_: What are the symptoms? - Mayo Clinic
Heart Attack Symptoms _in Women_ | American Heart Association


----------



## Sobakus

This is not a special usage, but the same exact meaning of _у + Gen._ as in the possessive construction «у меня есть». The issue of translating it into English is entirely confined to the latter language; sometimes it's possible to use the possessive construction, as in _women generally have their intuition working sharper than men_, sometimes not. The essence of it is that the subordinating construction _to have + obj. + Gerund_ is marked in English, while the Russian _у + Gen._ freely adjoins to any verb.

*у Маши* есть капуста, а *у Гриши* сосиска​*у женщин* есть яичники, а *у мужчин* яички​*у женщин* лучше работает интуиция, а *у мужчин* логика​
When this construction is learned improperly, the learner ends up with the impression that the «у меня есть» case is a special translation of “I have” whose logic cannot be grasped and which must be simply memorised as a translation correspondence. As a result, when they encounter the construction where it doesn't obviously translate with an English possessive construction, they get confused and think that this is another special case to be memorised simply as a correspondence to a different English translation (“when it comes to, as for, regarding etc”).

To learn the _у + Gen._ construction properly means being able to see that it's the same across all its different applications even when the English equivalents look nothing alike. The learner must disassociate the Russian from the English in order to successfully associate Russian with Russian.


----------



## pimlicodude

Sobakus said:


> This is not a special usage, but the same exact meaning of _у + Gen._ as in the possessive construction «у меня есть». The issue of translating it into English is entirely confined to the latter language.


A great post, Sobakus. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Another example is indeed the fact that  у меня isn't always attached to есть even where it means (in translation) "I have". This isn't really the topic of this thread, but the OP, if interested, could look at у меня / у меня есть


----------



## Sobakus

As for/regarding the translations “when it comes to, as for, regarding etc”, these are all ways to *topicalise* a constituent in English. “when it comes to, as for, regarding etc” are topicalisation markers; what they “translate” is the information structure (conveyed by word order) of the Russian sentence where «у мужчин» and «у женщин» are contrastive topics. They don't translate the prepositional construction with _у_ or vice versa – “as for/regarding the translations” doesn't translate to «у переводов» but «*что касается* переводов», where the bolded expression is also a topicalisation marker.


----------

