# Mouillé l & n in words borrowed from Latin?



## Lusus Naturae

Is _Tessaglia _the only vernacular form of _Thessalia _involving mouillé _l_ ? Is it borrowed like the rest are (e.g., Thessalie, Tesalia) ?

How often do Latin _l(l)_ and _n(n)_ become mouillé when borrowed into vernaculars?


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## Pietruzzo

I'm not sure what you mean by "vernacular". "Tessaglia" looks like Italian to me.


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## Lusus Naturae

Let me ask the question in a different way:
If the French, Portuguese, Spanish forms of _Thessalia _were inherited, it would be plausible that they were _T(h)essaille, Tessalha, Tesalla_ given the precedents (e.g., battalia > bataille, batalha, batalla); are there precedents for _Thessaille, Tessalha, Tesalla_ to be plausible provided that they are borrowed?

Assuming _Tessaglia _is also borrowed, is it a rare occurrence or one of many instances where Latin -li-/-lli- becomes -gli- when borrowed into Italian?


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## Dymn

I think that in Spanish, _-li-/-le-_ + vowel > /x/_, _e.g. _palea > paja, fīliu > hijo_. _Batalla _is an Occitan loanword, apparently. In all other vernaculars that I know of, even those very close to Castilian like Asturian and Aragonese, the outcome is /ʎ/ or a more innovative sound like /j/.

As for the environments causing such sounds, I just think it depends on the language.

In Catalan, if my mind doesn't slip:

As for /ʎ/:
_l-_: e.g. _llit
-ll-_: e.g. _vall _(Spanish)
_-li-/-le- _+ vowel: e.g. _palla _(Portuguese, French, Italian)
_-c'l-/-g'l-_: e.g. _ull _(Portuguese, French)

As for /ɲ/:
_-nn-/-mn-_: e.g. _canya _(Spanish)
_-ni-/-ne- _+ vowel: e.g. _aranya_ (Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian)
_-gn-_: e.g. _cunyat _(Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian)


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## fdb

Italian geographic names are sometimes treated as borrowings, like Italia (not *Itaglia), sometimes as inherited forms, like Apulia > Puglia. I am not sure that there are any hard and fast rules.


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## Lusus Naturae

Are words like _ammiraglio, serraglio_ inherited? They seem to belong to a register out of touch with common people.  

I'm also curious about similar phenomena in Russian. For instance, one Russian form of _Natalia _is Наталья, another is Наталия - is one inherited, the other borrowed? Or are both borrowed/inherited?


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## fdb

Lusus Naturae said:


> Are words like _ammiraglio, serraglio_ inherited?



No, they are borrowings, but not from Latin.


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## apmoy70

_Αmmiraglio_ is from the Byzantine *«Ἀμιράλιος» Amirálios* (Late Byz. *«Ἀμιράλης» Amirálēs*) the title of the commander of the central Imperial Fleet in the 11th c. CE that replaced the previously used *«Mέγας Δρουγγάριος τοῦ Βασιλικοῦ Πλοΐμου» Mégas Droungários toû Basilikoû Ploḯmou* (Grand Drungarius of the Royal Fleet, a mouthful)


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## berndf

apmoy70 said:


> _Αmmiraglio_ is from the Byzantine *«Ἀμιράλιος» Amirálios* (Late Byz. *«Ἀμιράλης» Amirálēs*) the title of the commander of the central Imperial Fleet in the 11th c. CE that replaced the previously used *«Mέγας Δρουγγάριος τοῦ Βασιλικοῦ Πλοΐμου» Mégas Droungários toû Basilikoû Ploḯmou* (Grand Drungarius of the Royal Fleet, a mouthful)


I am not convinced. A medieval Latin borrowing apparently from from Arabic with _-t_ at the end of the stem occurs already in Carolingian times and Old French versions with_ -l_ at the end occur around the same time as the one you mentioned. If it is not coincidence, the borrowing may well have occurred _into_ and not _from_ Byzantine Greek.


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## fdb

There is a long excellent article on the etymology and word history of "admiral" in the OED (for those who have a subscription).

admiral, n. : Oxford English Dictionary


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## fdb

berndf said:


> ....from Arabic with _-t_ at the end of the stem _..._



Do you mean "-l" ?


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Do you mean "-l" ?


From DWDS:


> Der arabische Titel erscheint zunächst in latinisierter Form (_admiratus, ammiratus_) in einer mlat. Quelle (um 800); über afrz. _amirail, amiral, amirault_, ...


I.e. first with _-t _and only later in Old French with _-l._


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## fdb

I see. The OED cites Old French amiralt, but says that this is an excrescent /t/. Basically, it comes from Arabic ʼamīr with some suffix (perhaps Latin -alis), but it has been contaminated by Latin admiratus “admired”.


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## apmoy70

berndf said:


> I am not convinced. A medieval Latin borrowing apparently from from Arabic with _-t_ at the end of the stem occurs already in Carolingian times and Old French versions with_ -l_ at the end occur around the same time as the one you mentioned. If it is not coincidence, the borrowing may well have occurred _into_ and not _from_ Byzantine Greek.


Well the earliest attestation of the title in Byzantine sources is in Georgios Cedrenus' "Σύνοψις Ἱστοριῶν-Historianum Compendium" p. 501, written in 1057 CE.


fdb said:


> There is a long excellent article on the etymology and word history of "admiral" in the OED (for those who have a subscription).
> 
> admiral, n. : Oxford English Dictionary


This is what OED reads (among others):
"The word is recorded earliest and most frequently in post-classical Latin as _amiratus_ , _admiratus_ (9th cent.; frequently from 12th cent. in British sources) < Arabic _amīr _(see above) + classical Latin _-ātus_ , past participle ending (see -ate suffix2), after _admīrātus_ , past participle of _admīrārī_ admire v. (compare Old Occitan _amirat_, Old French _amiret_, _amiré_ (second half of the 12th cent.)); these forms are apparently not reflected in English. Compare also post-classical Latin _amiras_, _ameras_ Muslim commander (9th cent.) < *Byzantine Greek ἀμηρᾶς (8th or early 9th cent., itself < Arabic*)."


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## berndf

apmoy70 said:


> Well the earliest attestation of the title in Byzantine sources is in Georgios Cedrenus' "Σύνοψις Ἱστοριῶν-Historianum Compendium" p. 501, written in 1057 CE.


Yes, that is about the time the variant with _-l _also occurs first in OF.


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## apmoy70

berndf said:


> Yes, that is about the time the variant with _-l _also occurs first in OF.


So in your opinion, it's a synchronic occurance in both OF and Byz.Gr?


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## berndf

apmoy70 said:


> So in your opinion, it's a synchronic occurance in both OF and Byz.Gr?


There may well be multiple borrowings from Arabic:


apmoy70 said:


> Compare also post-classical Latin _amiras_, _ameras_ Muslim commander (9th cent.) < *Byzantine Greek ἀμηρᾶς (8th or early 9th cent., itself < Arabic*)."


_Amiral_  (with contamination from _admire_ also _admiral_) seems to be an OF development and Italian from French. How_ Ἀμιράλης_ fits in here I cannot judge. It might be a parallel development or Western influence. But Byzantine as the origin of the OF form seems unlikely. I have never seen that theoty mentioned in any dictionary.


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## Penyafort

I agree with Dymn. It would have turned into palatals in most Romance languages.

*Galician | Portuguese:* _Tesalla _|_ Tessalha_
*Asturian:*_ Tesaya_
*Aragonese:* _Tesalla_
*Catalan:* _Tessalla_
*Occitan: *_Tessalha_
*French: *_T(h)essaille_
*Italian: *_Tessaglia
etc
_
In some, it might have developed into /j/.

In Spanish, it would have turned first into [te'saʒa], then into modern [te'saxa], both spelt _Tesaja_.

As Dymn says, I don't think batalla is a good word to choose as a reference, because, old as it is, it was likely a loanword from French or Occitan. The West Iberian genuine word for battle evolved from Latin LITEm (_lid _in Spanish, _lide _in Portuguese), but it is now regarded as more literary.

However, one can draw the same conclusion from _palea_, _filia_, _cilia_, etc.


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## Lusus Naturae

Is Spanish _ll _in words inherited from Latin mostly for Latin -ll- (like villa, Castilla)?


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## Dymn

Latin -ll- and initial pl-, cl-, fl-: _llegar, llave, llama_...


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