# Urdu: musavvar



## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

This word meaning 'formed/fashioned/painted' appears to refer to artworks mostly. In this form would it be an adjective?  If this is an adjective I can't think of any common usages. Can anyone suggest a simple sentence (in romanised form please  ? 

Thanks!


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## Alfaaz

مصور


> . جس کی تصویر بنائی گئی ہو، تصویر بنایا ہوا، پیدا کیا گیا، تصویر والی چیز یا با تصویر، نقش والا۔


jis ki tasweer banaa'ii ga'ii ho, tasweer banaya hua, paida kiya gaya, tasweer wali cheez yaa baa tasweer, naqsh wala


> سلام ان پر جو سرتا پا ہیں نور حق مصوّر
> جمال شب ہے جن کا پرتو زلف مصرب


salaam un par jo sartaa paa haiN noor-e-Haqq musawwar
jamaal-e-shab hai jin kaa partau, zulf mussarab 


> جس پر تصویریں بنائی گئی ہوں، منقش۔


jis par tasweereN bana'ii ga'ii hoN, munaqqash 


> لاشی کو مجسم و مصوّر کر کے
> ہم صورت گر "نہیں" کو "ہے" کہتے ہیں


laashae ko mujassam o muswwar kar ke
hum surat gar "naheeN: ko "hai" kehte haiN

This is again one of those where the difference of a zair or zabar changes the meaning (active/passive). musawwir is painter, former, fashioner, also one of the attributes of God in Islam. musawwar is formed, fashioned, painted, etc. 

*I myself am not really familiar with this word, so let's wait and see what other more knowledgeable/informed members say!

Question:* Since you've labeled the thread with both languages, what words would Hindi use for musawwir and musawwar? 

I think musawwir would be chitrkaar......?


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## lafz_puchnevala

Alfaaz said:


> مصور
> 
> jis ki tasweer banaa'ii ga'ii ho, tasweer banaya hua, paida kiya gaya, tasweer wali cheez yaa baa tasweer, naqsh wala
> 
> salaam un par jo sartaa paa haiN noor-e-Haqq musawwar
> jamaal-e-shab hai jin kaa partau, zulf mussarab
> 
> jis par tasweereN bana'ii ga'ii hoN, munaqqash
> 
> laashae ko mujassam o muswwar kar ke
> hum surat gar "naheeN: ko "hai" kehte haiN
> 
> This is again one of those where the difference of a zair or zabar changes the meaning (active/passive). musawwir is painter, former, fashioner, also one of the attributes of God in Islam. musawwar is formed, fashioned, painted, etc.
> 
> *I myself am not really familiar with this word, so let's wait and see what other more knowledgeable/informed members say!
> 
> Question:* Since you've labeled the thread with both languages, what words would Hindi use for musawwir and musawwar?
> 
> I think musawwir would be chitrkaar......?



'chitrakaar' would be ok. musawwar in essence is 'tasviir banaa hua', can't think of anything more sophisticated...


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## lafz_puchnevala

Looks like this word is not widely used...


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## Qureshpor

lafz_puchnevala said:


> 'chitrakaar' would be ok. musawwar in essence is 'tasviir banaa hua', can't think of anything more sophisticated...



Unfortunately, your answer here points to the fact that the understanding you have gained from the last very detailed explanation amounts to zero!


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## lafz_puchnevala

QURESHPOR said:


> Unfortunately, your answer here points to the fact that the understanding you have gained from the last very detailed explanation amounts to zero!



To clarify, 'chitrakaar' means 'painter' and this would definitely be a subset of the wide range of meanings of 'musawwir'. As for 'musawwar' this passive form can mean 'tasviir (etc.) banaa/banaayaa hua' to mean 'made/fashioned painting'. I believe that banaa/banaayaa are similar and acceptable here with only minor differences in meaning.

I would like to simple examples of how 'musawwar' is usually used if at all in common situations. 

Please contribute useful input in addition to criticisms.


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## Qureshpor

> This word meaning 'formed/fashioned/painted' appears to refer to artworks mostly. In this form would it be an adjective? If this is an adjective I can't think of any common usages. Can anyone suggest a simple sentence (in romanised form please  ?



You have obviously got this definition from somewhere. Did this source indicate that this word could be either an Urdu word or a Hindi word? If it did n't, what has prompted you to say that "musavvar" is a "Hindi/Urdu" word? Have you come across this word being used by Hindi speakers or have you read it in a Hindi novel or a newspaper? 



lafz_puchnevala said:


> I would like to simple examples of how 'musawwar' is usually used if at all in common situations. Please contribute useful input in addition to criticisms.



Which language are you enquiring about this word's usage? A person who is a seeker of knowledge seeks it with sincerity and clarity. He does not call a "mango" a "mango/turnip"! Either his enquiry is about a mango or a turnip! The sooner you decide to ask questions, with appropriate context and a sincere wish to learn about words in a particular language, namely Urdu, the quicker you will be able to get straight answers.

I have checked words in Hindi for a rectangle and none of them are "mustatiil". Does it not surprise you one little bit that hardly any Hindi speaker comes forward to answer your queries? Why? Because, they do not recognise these words to be Hindi. If you wish to carry on playing this game you may do so because I don't see your endeavours as sincere learning exercises. One or two Urdu speakers may continue to make attempts at offering explanations but even they will reach a point when they feel enough is enough! Let me offer you a sample of what you might get if you show a bit of sincerity.

musavvir = artist/painter/illustrator
musavvar = painted/illustrated

Abdur Rehman Chughtai ek mash_huur Pakistani musavvir the. un ke shaah-kaar nigaar-xaanoN ke 3ilaavah musavvar jariidoN meN bhii mil sakte haiN. (Urdu sentence)

ARC was a renowned Pakistani painter. His masterpieces, apart from art galleries, are also to be found in illustrated magazines. (English sentence)


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## lafz_puchnevala

Of course, I agree with you but I am not sure which language the words are used in as some of the words I ask are indeed used in Hindi. I am pretty sure that the moderators will change the title if necessary.


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Looks like this word is not widely used...


 Both _musawwir_ and _musawwar _are used in Urdu. 



lafz_puchnevala said:


> To clarify, 'chitrakaar' means 'painter' and this would definitely be a subset of the wide range of meanings of 'musawwir'. As for 'musawwar' this passive form can mean 'tasviir (etc.) banaa/banaayaa hua' to mean 'made/fashioned painting'. I believe that banaa/banaayaa are similar and acceptable here with only minor differences in meaning.
> 
> _*I would like to *__*have*__* simple examples of how 'musawwar' is usually used if at all in common situations.
> *_
> Please contribute useful input in addition to criticisms.


 The respective meanings of _musawwir_ and _musawwar_ have already been given in post#7 above.


_yeh kitaab mufaSSal aur muSawwar hai _

_This is a detailed and illustrated book_
_This book is detailed and illustrated_

_miikalaanjelo / ma’iikalaanjelo (Michalangelo) ek naamii giraamii muSawwir thaa jis ko uske ham waTan muSawwir  raafiil (Raphael) ne apni mashhuur taSwiir  “madrasa-e-ait-henz”* meN muSawwar kar diyaa. _

_Michalangelo was a famous, renowned painter who was painted in by his fellow countryman-painter, Raphael, in his well-known picture / painting “The School of Athens*”.    _

[There has been quite some discussion about this in the history of art as to why Raphael included his countryman and rival, Michelangelo, for the image of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus in this really famous painting called “_The School of Athens_”.]


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## lafz_puchnevala

Thank you for your examples   I would just like to confirm your use of the word 'illustrated'. Does it refer to something having a lot of 'pictures and diagrams' or is it more general like 'descriptions'?

Thanks!


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## lafz_puchnevala

Faylasoof said:


> Both _musawwir_ and _musawwar _are used in Urdu.
> 
> The respective meanings of _musawwir_ and _musawwar_ have already been given in post#7 above.
> 
> 
> _yeh kitaab mufaSSal aur muSawwar hai _
> 
> _This is a detailed and illustrated book_
> _This book is detailed and illustrated_
> 
> _miikalaanjelo / ma’iikalaanjelo (Michalangelo) ek naamii giraamii muSawwir thaa jis ko uske ham waTan muSawwir  raafiil (Raphael) ne apni mashhuur taSwiir  “madrasa-e-ait-henz”* meN muSawwar kar diyaa. _
> 
> _Michalangelo was a famous, renowned painter who was painted in by his fellow countryman-painter, Raphael, in his well-known picture / painting “The School of Athens*”.    _
> 
> [There has been quite some discussion about this in the history of art as to why Raphael included his countryman and rival, Michelangelo, for the image of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus in this really famous painting called “_The School of Athens_”.]



I would like a clarification on 'musavvar' which has been stated as an adjective. So, when you said '.....*painted* by his fellow countrymen.....',  use of 'musavvar' does not refer to an adjective. So, does the word also act as a verb also? 

Thanks!


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> Both _musawwir_ and _musawwar _are used in Urdu.
> 
> The respective meanings of _musawwir_ and _musawwar_ have already been given in post#7 above.
> 
> 
> _yeh kitaab mufaSSal aur muSawwar hai _
> 
> _This is a detailed and illustrated book_
> _This book is detailed and illustrated_
> 
> _miikalaanjelo / ma’iikalaanjelo (Michalangelo) ek naamii giraamii muSawwir thaa jis ko uske ham waTan muSawwir  raafiil (Raphael) ne apni mashhuur taSwiir  “madrasa-e-ait-henz”* meN muSawwar kar diyaa. _
> 
> _Michalangelo was a famous, renowned painter who was painted in by his fellow countryman-painter, Raphael, in his well-known picture / painting “The School of Athens*”.    _
> 
> [There has been quite some discussion about this in the history of art  as to why Raphael included his countryman and rival, Michelangelo, for the image of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus in this really famous painting called “_The School of Athens_”.]
> 
> 
> 
> I would like a clarification on 'musavvar' which has been stated as an adjective. So, when you said '.....*painted* by his fellow countrymen.....',  use of 'musavvar' does not refer to an adjective. So, does the word also act as a verb also?
> 
> Thanks!
Click to expand...

 Yes, _muSaww*a*r_ is an adjective! As mentioned before, it means _painted / illustrated_. But it can also be part of compound verbs:

_muSaww*a*r karnaa / kar denaa_ = to illustrate, i.e add illustrations / pictures (to something); to paint (something)
_muSaww*a*r honaa / ho jaanaa_ = to be illustrated / be painted 

It was as the first form that I used it (.... _meN muSaww*a*r kar diyaa _) in reference to Raphael painting in Michalangelo's image into the picture.


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## lafz_puchnevala

Faylasoof said:


> Yes, _muSaww*a*r_ is an adjective! As mentioned before, it means _painted / illustrated_. But it can also be part of compound verbs:
> 
> _muSaww*a*r karnaa / kar denaa_ = to illustrate, i.e add illustrations / pictures (to something); to paint (something)
> _muSaww*a*r honaa / ho jaanaa_ = to be illustrated / be painted
> 
> It was as the first form that I used it (.... _meN muSaww*a*r kar diyaa _) in reference to Raphael painting in Michalangelo's image into the picture.



That was a fantastic explanation on grammer. Now I think I am getting the flow of things from musavvar (adj) -> musavvar karna (verb) -> musavvar hona (verb). I guess this can apply across the board to certain other words as well. Thanks!


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> That was a fantastic explanation on grammer. Now I think I am getting the flow of things from musavvar (adj) -> musavvar karna (verb) -> musavvar hona (verb). _I guess this can apply across the board to certain other words as well. Thanks!_


 _Of course! This is a very common way to make compound verbs_: _*baRaa*_ (= big) is an adjective just like _*muSawwar*_ and just as the latter makes the verbs above (_*muSawwar karnaa / honaa*)_ you say _*baRaa karnaa / honaa*_ -- adjective + simple verb -> compound verb.


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## Sheikh_14

So could you not say Mussawiri ka hunar, the skill of painting for mussawar refers to an act done rather one that is being undergone? If not how would you refer to the act I.e. he is painting a fantastic portrait rather than he has painted a fantastic portrait. 
Any response would be much appreciated. Shukria Hazraat.


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## Qureshpor

^ This is more a question on Arabic grammar than Urdu and my understanding is that you are well familiar with the former.

The verb in question is "sawwara"/ to paint (literally "he painted). This is pattern II in the Arabic verb system

Present participle/agent = musawwir/painter (c.f mu3allim)
Past Participle = musawwar/painted
Verbal noun = tasviir (c.f ta3liim)

I hope this was helpful. I am sure you can make up the sentence using "tasviir" now without any difficulty.


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## marrish

Sheikh_14 said:


> So could you not say Mussawiri ka hunar, the skill of painting for mussawar refers to an act done rather one that is being undergone? If not how would you refer to the act I.e. he is painting a fantastic portrait rather than he has painted a fantastic portrait.
> Any response would be much appreciated. Shukria Hazraat.


If I fail to understand what you intended to write the fault will be not mine. 

1. I'm sorry, I'm afraid we can't say "mussawiri ka hunar" for the skill of painting. We can say "_musa*ww*ir*ii* k*aa* hunar_" instead or _hunar-e-musawwirii_.

2. "for mussawar refers to an act done rather one that is being undergone?": *musawwar* is "past participle" as Qureshpor SaaHib and others before have clearly stated. What is a past participle? A word which can act as an adjective and which informs you about some act having been done to an object. ("painted" is such a word. "A painting has been *painted*" _taswiir musawwar hu'ii hae. _ *musawwir* is a present participle which tells what the agent does. _yih ek musawwir hae - yih musawwar karne waalaa hae - yih taswiireN banaane waalaa hae_. A painter - *the painting one* - the one who makes paintings. *taswiir* then is the outcome of this action: *a painting*.

3. "he is painting a fantastic portrait rather than he has painted a fantastic portrait." _wuh niraalii taswiir banaa rahaa hae / wuh niraalii taswiir musawwar kar rahaa hae v. wuh niraalii taswiir banaa chukaa hae / wuh niraalii taswiir musawwar kar chukaa hae._


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> 1. I'm sorry, I'm afraid we can't say "mussawiri ka hunar" for the skill of painting. We can say "_musa*ww*ir*ii* k*aa* hunar_" instead or _hunar-e-musawwirii_.
> 
> 2. "for mussawar refers to an act done rather one that is being undergone?": *musawwar* is "past participle" as Qureshpor SaaHib and others before have clearly stated. What is a past participle? A word which can act as an adjective and which informs you about some act having been done to an object. ("painted" is such a word. "A painting has been *painted*" _taswiir musawwar hu'ii hae. _ *musawwir* is a present participle which tells what the agent does. _yih ek musawwir hae - yih musawwar karne waalaa hae - yih taswiireN banaane waalaa hae_. A painter - *the painting one* - the one who makes paintings. *taswiir* then is the outcome of this action: *a painting*.
> 
> 3. "he is painting a fantastic portrait rather than he has painted a fantastic portrait." _wuh niraalii taswiir banaa rahaa hae / wuh niraalii taswiir musawwar kar rahaa hae v. wuh niraalii taswiir banaa chukaa hae / wuh niraalii taswiir musawwar kar chukaa hae._



1. Precisely what I was asking, my apologies for the spelling errors. From what I have gathered from your last post Musawwirii ka hunar or hunar e Musawwirii are correct for the skill of painting. From a verbatim translation would this be the skill of the painter or the skill of painting. In other words here, is it a collective or just in reference to an individual painter. For instance adaakarii ka hunar is the skill of acting and hunar e adakaar or ka hunar could well mean the skill of an actor.
2. No questions here as of yet.
3. According to your previous points Musawwar is only used for what has been done rather than what is being done thence wouldn't Woh niraalaa musawwirii ka muzaahiraa kar rahaa hai be correct or should it instead be Musawwarii ka muzaahira. However, when speaking of the past than Musawirii kaa Muzahira kiiyaa hai.

My apologies for any repetition just nipping it once and for all.


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