# 这儿 / 这里



## toruk makto

Are 这儿 and 这里 perfect synonyms? I don't think so because of the attached page (taken from 是的).

Look at lines 1 and 3. I don't think you can say:

你住在这里吗？

nor can you say

这里房子好不好？


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## Lifespark

这儿 and 这里 are perfect synonyms. Both of them mean 'here'. It depends which one you like to use, but they are the same meaning.

Actually, 哪儿 and 哪里（where is it)， 那儿 and 那里(there), they express a same meaning. I don't know whether you learned these words, just want to make it more clear.


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## toruk makto

谢谢您！


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## rockcracker

您好,
1 你住(在)这儿吗? 省去"在"更加口语化.
2 你住(在)这里吗? 和上面没差别
3 *这儿*房子好不好?(这个区域内的房子好不好?)
如果您是初学者,儿化音发的不是很好的话(不能读清楚"*这儿*"和"*这*"),那么不建议您用这个句子.因为如果这里的儿化音没发到位,说出来对方会听成:
4 *这*房子好不好?(表达正确,但特指某个房子,表达的意义和第三句完全不一样).
5 这里房子好不好?(这个区域内的房子好不好?)


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## Ali Smith

Given the fact that the majority of Chinese speakers say 这里 and that a minority says 这儿, it's a wonder why textbooks _always_ teach the latter and, worse yet, neglect to mention that 这里 even exists!

I remember that back when I started learning Chinese using a textbook and audio files, I was corrected by a native speaker, who insisted I use the non-儿化 form. At first, I did it just to please him. Later on, after encountering Chinese people from all over China, I discovered that although people may understand you when you use the 儿化 form of a word, they will usually use the non-儿化 form. So, it makes perfect sense to pronounce words the way the majority of native speakers pronounce them. That's why I have stopped using 这儿, 一点儿, etc. and started using 这里, 一点, and so on. Actually, it was hard for me to unlearn 我会说一点儿普通话, which Pimsleur had ingrained in me, and to substitute 我会说一点普通话.

What do you guys think? Should the beginner use the majority pronunciation for 普通话 or that of Beijing and the surrounding areas?


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## Skatinginbc

Good observation, Ali.  Whenever I say _zhèr_ (這兒-兒化) and _yì diǎr_ (一點兒-兒化加變音) in Taiwan, people raise eyebrows and think I am an "alien" (foreigner).


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## SuperXW

Ali Smith said:


> Given the fact that the majority of Chinese speakers say 这里 and that a minority says 这儿, it's a wonder why textbooks _always_ teach the latter...
> ...
> So, it makes perfect sense to pronounce words the way the majority of native speakers pronounce them.
> ...
> What do you guys think? Should the beginner use the majority pronunciation for 普通话 or that of Beijing and the surrounding areas?


Basic fact 1:
儿化 is commonly used by Beijinger and Northern Chinese, but is absent in most Southern Chinese dialects.
Standard Mandarin (PRC) is a government regulated language based on Beijing dialect, so it clarifies 儿化 is required in some contexts, and optional in some other cases.
Textbooks of PRC may prefer to teach the options with 儿化, since it is a special characteristic in Mandarin.
While many Southern Chinese never get to used to it. Their accents without 儿化 are perfectly acceptable, as long as they don't cause ambiguity.

Basic fact 2:
One can never be sure the people he/she has met standed for "majority Chinese".
Months ago, Chinese President Xi announced that half Chinese population (almost) earns only 1000 RMB (150 USD) / Month. I was shocked. Obviously I don't belong to that "circle" or "class".
So, I feel samples from our own circles were never big enough. Our experiences were often rather baised. Maybe you've met a bunch of Southerners?
We often try to guess another person's home province according to his/her accent, so you can see "native Chinese" are rather diverse.

Basic fact 3:
What textbooks teach are NOT ALWAYS what majority people do. The majority's pronunciation can be INCORRECT.
There are planty of characters that textbooks and dictionaries suggest one sound, while people pronounce differently.
In China, we often honor the textbook and dictionary's rules. If people pronounce it differently, we blame the education, not the book.


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## Ali Smith

Thank you for your detailed feedback!

By the way, I went out of my way to ask all the Chinese people I met over the course of years where they were from. So, I know for a fact that they were from all over the place: the northwest, southwest, southeast, northeast, and the center. And my observation was that the majority did not do 儿化音.


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## 2PieRad

Yeah, the thing is, natives don't speak to non-natives (ie. learners) in the same way that they speak to their native peers.

I can't speak for all cases, but to me, 儿化 usually sounds noticeably less formal, more relaxed, and has a bit more *snap* *swivel* personality.

Drawing a parallel, I might say _gonna, wanna, I dunno _ALL the time with my friends without even noticing, but if I'm speaking to someone who's learning English, I would make an effort to say _going to, want to, I don't know, _whether consciously or unconsciously_. _Unless their English is very advanced, it just sounds so forced and out-of-place when a learner tries to use _gonna/wanna/dunno. _So if you're learning English from me and you're still stuck on sentences like "_Are the houses here good?", _then I would definitely try to minimize your exposure to (through my own speech), and usage of words like _gonna/wanna/dunno_, because at your current level, it wouldn't sound natural at all when you use them.


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## Ali Smith

That makes perfect sense! However, I must add that I have yet to come across a single person from northeast China who went out of his or her way to say 玩，有点，一点，小孩，聊天，etc.

For example, I asked several of them if they had ever been to Shanghai, Guangzhou, or Hong Kong. When they replied in the affirmative, I asked them 为什么？All of them replied 玩儿. Not a single one said 玩. This made understanding them a little difficult at first, but eventually I got the hang of it.


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## j29682896

SuperXW‘s explanation is great. It's a regional linguistic feature. In my opinion, 儿化 and non-儿化 are both good, as long as you can get your meaning across. Just speak in the way that you are comfortable with.


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## Ali Smith

Ah, but there lies the problem: I have been misunderstood by native speakers when I omitted the 儿化音. For example, someone asked me why I went to New York. I replied 玩. I had to repeat myself several times before he understood I meant "to have a good time". He told me I should have said 玩儿 instead. He said that otherwise, people would think I meant "to complete/finish". I was shocked, for I had heard _most_ of my Chinese friends reply with 玩 when I'd asked them why they'd gone to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, etc.


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## 2PieRad

If they have no problems understanding each other regardless if they use 儿 or not, yet you do have trouble being understood, then your problem probably has little to do with you using 儿 or not.


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## SuperXW

Ali Smith said:


> Ah, but there lies the problem: I have been misunderstood by native speakers when I omitted the 儿化音. For example, someone asked me why I went to New York. I replied 玩. I had to repeat myself several times before he understood I meant "to have a good time". He told me I should have said 玩儿 instead. He said that otherwise, people would think I meant "to complete/finish". I was shocked, for I had heard _most_ of my Chinese friends reply with 玩 when I'd asked them why they'd gone to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, etc.


In my experience, people who are not used to say 玩儿, would usually reply by "去玩啊" or some short sentence.
The context can usually eliminate ambiguity.
If someone only reply "玩 wan", I'd feel he/she has an obvious accent (different to PRC standard Mandarin).


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## petrokov

What we can see from all this discussion is that people in some parts of China like to say that their accent is the best and complain about people in other parts of China and the way they talk. If you use 兒化音 in a place like Taiwan, they'll judge you and say you sound like a Mainlander, but no one will complain in the north. If you don't use 兒化音 but pronounce 沙 like 撒 and 持 like 詞, people in the north will complain, but no one in the south will have a problem. If you speak Mandarin with any accent in Hong Kong, everyone will look down on you for not speaking Cantonese.

There is nothing wrong with 這兒. There is nothing wrong with 這裡. If someone can clearly understand you but says you're speaking wrong for not using their accent, tell them to buzz off.


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## dojibear

I study Mandarin using on-line courses. I've watched videos by several teachers. They all teach 这里. Some advanced courses talk about 儿化 , calling it a Beijing (and northern China) regional accent. They give 这儿 and 哪儿 as examples of 儿化. 

I assume that Mandarin-speaking people in all parts of China understand 这里.


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## Techref

dojibear said:


> I assume that Mandarin-speaking people in all parts of China understand 这里.



Yes.
這裏 is 標準中文
這兒 is more for speaking than for writing.

Well that’s for me and what I experience. 
I’m not sure about the others. 
Back in the days when I was writing Chinese composition in school with the word 這兒，I got a demerit. 

Well, it can be quite subjective.


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