# Bardascio, Bardache, Bardash



## aefrizzo

Buon giorno a tutti voi.

 In Western Sicily_ bardasciu_, dialectal adjective and substantive, is anyone who displays showy unconventional or kitsch attires and behaviour, regardless of age or gender. Almost obsolete, apparently such a term occurs all over Central-Southern Italy, although with slightly variant spellings and huge differences in meaning (from teenager to young slave to sodomite).
According to the relevant dictionaries the Italian term _(bardascio/bardasso)_, as well as the French (_bardache_), the Spanish (_bardax_), and the English one (_bardash_)  seem all to be direct or indirect borrowings (XV century) from Arab _Bardag, _the latter coming in turn from Persian _Bardal._

 Now I find a minor character of a novel* who seems to fit my above definition of _Bardasciu _and actually enjoys the Yiddish nickname _*Bardash *_from his Berliner friends. I have found no mention of this term or similar in any on-line  German dictionary, probably due to my poor acquaintance with this language, not to say I cannot read neither Hebrew nor Yiddish.

 I wonder whether this term is really a native Yiddish one (I mean German-Hebrew) or is just a remain from the spoken Mediterranean Hebrew after their forced migration (1492 AD) to Central-Eastern Europe.

Grazie.

 *Die Mischpohe Karnowski, (I.J.Singer, 1943, La famiglia Karnowski, recently translated directly from Yiddish to Italian).


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## djara

In Arabic, the actual word is bardaj بردج (phonetically closer to the final 'sh' sound in European languages) from Persian barda برده

The following is a definition of the word in a medieval Arabic dictionary (Lisaan)
البَرْدَجُ السَّبْيُ، معرَّب، وأَصله بالفارسية برده
al-bardaj, a captive, arabized, its origin is the Persian bardah

The following is a definition of bardah in Steingass
برده _barda,_ A captive, prisoner of war; a slave, servant; (_barda burdan,_ To make prisoner, to take captive--_burda,_ Borne, carried away;--_burda shudan,_To be carried off.


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## berndf

Occuring in Yiddish as spoken in pre-war Germany it is almost certainly from French _bardache _with the etymology you stated.



aefrizzo said:


> I wonder whether this term is really a native Yiddish one (I mean German-Hebrew) or is just a remain from the spoken Mediterranean Hebrew after their forced migration (1492 AD) to Central-Eastern Europe.


No Jews were forced to migrate to Eastern Europe after 1492. You are confusing Ashkenazi Jews (those who partly migrated to Eastern Europe from Germany) and Sfardi Jews (those who were forced out of Spain in 1492). Yiddish (various dialect, Eastern Yiddish is only one of them) was (and to some extent still is) the popular language of Ashkenazi Jews. Sfardi Jews never spoke Yiddish.


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## fdb

djara said:


> In Arabic, the actual word is bardaj بردج (phonetically closer to the final 'sh' sound in European languages) from Persian barda برده
> 
> The following is a definition of the word in a medieval Arabic dictionary (Lisaan)
> البَرْدَجُ السَّبْيُ، معرَّب، وأَصله بالفارسية برده
> al-bardaj, a captive, arabized, its origin is the Persian bardah



The OED writes, s.v. "bardash":

"The Italian word is usually assumed to be < Arabic _bardaj_ captive ( < Middle Persian _wardag_ , in the same sense); however, the Arabic word is apparently only attested once (in a 7th-cent. poem) and is not used in the more general sense ‘young man’ and has no implication of sexual practices; its relationship to the Romance nouns also poses phonological difficulties."

I think these objections are valid.


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## aefrizzo

Thank you, *berndf.*
Sefarditi (so we call them) were forced out on 1492AD from Spanish Dominions (including Sicily and Southern Italy) as well and migrated to Central and Northern Italy. See the famous ghettos of Roma,Venezia and several other towns. I didn't say they were speaking Yiddish. Although  you are "almost" certain that Yiddish_ "Bardash_" was borrowed from French "_Bardach_e", I don't feel like ruling out that a borrowing might also occur from migrated Sefarditi  (no communication at all between Sepharad and Ashkenazy people?) or even from then current Italian (Machiavelli, Aretino..)*.
Anyway I am still unable to find a strictly German term similar to those occurring in other languages. Blame on my dictionaries?

Thank you,* fdb*.
Actually another etymo has been also suggested: greek _Badas_*.

*Accademia della Crusca: lessicografia.it/


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## berndf

aefrizzo said:


> Sefarditi (so we call them) were forced out on 1492AD from Spanish Dominions (including Sicily and Southern Italy) as well and migrated to Central and Northern Italy. See the famous ghettos of Roma,Venezia and several other towns.


... and many other places. The pre 20th century Jewish population of the Ottoman empire were mostly Sfardim as well a substantial part of Jewish population of the Netherlands. But they did not migrate to:


aefrizzo said:


> Central-Eastern Europe.





aefrizzo said:


> Anyway I am still unable to find a strictly German term similar to those occurring in other languages. Blame on my dictionaries?


You won't because it is not a German term. Around 1900, French was still very much a language every educated German was supposed to be familiar with (and certainly urban Jews who were super-assimilated). Like today you are supposed to know all kinds of American slang if you want to be "hip".


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## djara

fdb said:


> however, the Arabic word is apparently only attested once (in a 7th-cent. poem)


Probably. It's one of those words you only find in dictionaries. Searching a large body of Arabic texts online, I only found it 5 times, all of which in dictionaries (al 'ayn, Lisaan, as-sihah, Taaj al-'arous, Tahdheeb al-lugha)


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## fdb

... all of whom quote the same unique verse by Ibn as-Sikkīt, where it refers to a wild camel that has been taken captive. This is not the sort of word that gets borrowed into Italian.


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## CyrusSH

aefrizzo said:


> According to the relevant dictionaries the Italian term _(bardascio/bardasso)_, as well as the French (_bardache_), the Spanish (_bardax_), and the English one (_bardash_)  seem all to be direct or indirect borrowings (XV century) from Arab _Bardag, _the latter coming in turn from Persian _Bardal._



Why not direct borrowing from Persian? I think it is more possible that this word reached Italy through North Africa than the Middle East.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I think it is more possible that this word reached Italy through North Africa than the Middle East.


... i.e through Arabic, the predominant language of North Africa in the relevant period.

But since the whole etymological chain apparently doesn't hold water it doesn't really matter from where it was _not_ borrowed.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> ... i.e through Arabic, the predominant language of North Africa in the relevant period.



You are talking about which period? From 7th to 10th century North Africa was under strong influence of Persian culture, especially during Rustamids' rule.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> You are talking about which period? From 7th to 10th century North Africa was under strong influence of Persian culture, especially during Rustamids' rule.


Islamic expension into Malta, Sicily and Southern Italy was driven by the Aghlabid Emirate and after its overthrow by the Fatimit Khalifate. The Rustamids hadn't much to do with all of that. Their big time was a bit earlier and they did not control the coast.


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## aefrizzo

CyrusSH said:


> Why not direct borrowing from Persian? I think it is more possible that this word reached Italy through North Africa than the Middle East.


Ciao, *Ciro*.
 If the objections of fdb#4/8 and DJara#7 are reasonably valid, we are all, I suppose, interested to share your whole knowledge about the presumably original Persian term and its usage/diffusion regardless of the road to Europe.
Grazie.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Islamic expension into Malta, Sicily and Southern Italy was driven by the Aghlabid Emirate and after its overthrow by the Fatimit Khalifate. The Rustamids hadn't much to do with all of that. Their big time was a bit earlier and they did not control the coast.



I'm talking about the influence Persian culture in this region, not just Rustamids, for example the name of the capital city of Aghlabids has also a Persian origin.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I'm talking about the influence Persian culture in this region, not just Rustamids, for example the name of the capital city of Aghlabids has also a Persian *origin*.


Nobody ever doubted that بردج was of Persian *origin* but to Southern Italy the word would certainly have arrived through Arabic.

But anyhow, the whole theory sounds dodgy.


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## CyrusSH

aefrizzo said:


> Ciao, *Ciro*.
> If the objections of fdb#4/8 and DJara#7 are reasonably valid, we are all, I suppose, interested to share your whole knowledge about the presumably original Persian term and its usage/diffusion regardless of the road to Europe.
> Grazie.



Persian _barda_ is equivalent to the Arabic word _ghulam_ which means "1. boy, young man, 2. slave, 3. passive homosexual (compare to ghulam-bareh in Modern Persian)."


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## aefrizzo

*Many thanks to all contributors*. 
 Let me try, please to summarize what I have been learning and still hope to do from this thread. Be clement to my English.


Around the XV century the word arrives in Europe and is borrowed (directly or indirectly) by several European languages, namely Italian French Spanish and even English.


It dodges German and re-appears later on (?) in Yiddish, almost certainly as a borrowing from French at the beginning of XX century. Any contribute from Yiddish speakers and from Eastern Europe would be precious to explain such a bypass.


The currently reported etymology assumes an Arabic (<Persian) borrowing. It seems to be questionable for statistical and phonological reasons.


Has been the original Persian word submitted to the same statistical and phonological analysis as the Arabic one?


An alternative etymology suggests the Greek borrowing _Badas_. Perseus on-line gives it as a synonymous of just one of the possible  meanings but no other info. Admittedly I am not a frequent flyer of Perseus.


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## berndf

aefrizzo said:


> It dodges German and re-appears later on (?) in Yiddish, almost certainly as a borrowing from French at the beginning of XX century. Any contribute from Yiddish speakers and from Eastern Europe would be precious to explain such a bypass.


I would be careful though. I still don't feel we have any evidence so far that _bardash_ actually was an Eastern Yiddish word at the time. The spelling we are talking about now is a transliteration of a transliteration, which is susceptible to all kinds of errors. We should first try to get the context in the Yiddish original and verify that the spelling is indeed באַרדאַש (with patah under both alephs).
.


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## CyrusSH

In my previous post I actually assumed that Persian _barda_ could be calque of Arabic word _ghulam_ but I can't find this word with meaning in any Persian text, in fact the word _ghulam_ is itself used in Persian.

Another Persian word for "catamite" is _birish_ which literally means "beardless", I think it is possible that _bardascio_ is actually a calque in an European language, the proto-IE word for "beard" is _*bʰardʰeh₂_.


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