# Hindi/Urdu: baras v. saal



## souminwé

Perhaps an insignificant question, but I've been wondering if there's a difference in usage between _*baras*_ and _*saal*_. I was quite shocked to hear a Pakistani news channel saying *baras/barsoM *quite a few times. I know in literary Hindi, _*baras*_ is the preferred word for writing/saying the date. I did not expect it to be in use in Pakistan at all (I thought it was one of those _desi_ words like _*bya, pyo, pothi*_ etc. that you only encounter in _*bhajan*_s)

But what about in speaking? Why would you say _*baras*_ over _*saal*_? To be honest, I almost always say _*saal*_ and I only write _*baras*_ (I avoid वर्ष except maybe in वर्षीय ). Can one say _*meri bacci do barsoM ki hai*_ ? Does it have a rustic connotation? Does _*saal*_ have some sort of connotation then?

Not knowing such a basic word has shaken my mind.


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Perhaps an insignificant question, but I've been wondering if there's a difference in usage between _*baras*_ and _*saal*_. I was quite shocked to hear a Pakistani news channel saying *baras/barsoM *quite a few times. I know in literary Hindi, _*baras*_ is the preferred word for writing/saying the date. I did not expect it to be in use in Pakistan at all (I thought it was one of those _desi_ words like _*bya, pyo, pothi*_ etc. that you only encounter in _*bhajan*_s)
> 
> But what about in speaking? Why would you say _*baras*_ over _*saal*_? To be honest, I almost always say _*saal*_ and I only write _*baras*_ (I avoid वर्ष except maybe in वर्षीय ). Can one say _*meri bacci do barsoM ki hai*_ ? Does it have a rustic connotation? Does _*saal*_ have some sort of connotation then?
> 
> Not knowing such a basic word has shaken my mind.



*I am actually surprised at your "shock" at hearing the  word "baras" used on a Pakistani TV channel! Perhaps your exposure to  Urdu speech and writing is not so extensive. We Urdu speakers use it all  the time in speech and writing. I have to add that it may not be used  as frequently as "saal" but there is no difference in meaning between  the two words. And yes, we do say, "merii bachchii do baras kii hai". Neither does it have what you call a "rustic" connotation. Here is Ghalib..

tum salaamat raho hazaar baras
har baras ke hoN din pachaas hazaar

This is from a "petition" addressed to the  last Mughal king, Bahadur Shah Zafar. This couplet is often used to  convey best wishes at birthdays, both in spoken form and on birthday  cards.

Here is a couplet from a "giit" by Akhtar Sherani.

**baRe sukh se yih biite the chawdah baras kabhii maiN ne nah piyaa thaa prem kaa ras *

*mirii aaNkhoN ko Shyaam dikhaa ke daras mire harday meN chaao basaa hii gae *

*It probably took centuries for words like varsh and raatri* *to become* *baras and raat. We Urdu-vaalas don't want to be going back to the uncut and unpolished rocks when we have the cut and polished diamonds!

A few more couplets.

shaayad aa jaa'e gaa saaqii ko taras ab ke baras
 mil nah paayaa hai un aaNkhoN kaa ras ab ke baras*

*[Rai Rampuri] *

*tashkiil-o-takmiil-e-fan meN jo bhii Hafeez kaa Hissah hai 
 do chaar baras** kii baat nahiiN, yih nisf sadii kaa qissah hai

[Hafeez Jalandhari]
*
*Here is a shi'r that has become proverbial in Urdu cultural environment. Please note also "sin" which means "a year" in Arabic.

**baras pandrah yaa kih solah kaa sin 
 javaanii kii raateN muraadoN ke din

 [Miir Hasan]*

*On a final note, I might add that in poetry at least, baras may add to the nostalgic romantic effect.*


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## Faylasoof

souminwé said:


> Perhaps an insignificant question, but I've been wondering if there's a difference in usage between _*baras*_ and _*saal*_. I was quite shocked to hear a Pakistani news channel saying *baras/barsoM *quite a few times. I know in literary Hindi, _*baras*_ is the preferred word for writing/saying the date. I did not expect it to be in use in Pakistan at all (I thought it was one of those _desi_ words like _*bya, pyo, pothi*_ etc. that you only encounter in _*bhajan*_s)
> 
> But what about in speaking? Why would you say _*baras*_ over _*saal*_? To be honest, I almost always say _*saal*_ and I only write _*baras*_ (I avoid वर्ष except maybe in वर्षीय ). Can one say _*meri bacci do barsoM ki hai*_ ? Does it have a rustic connotation? Does _*saal*_ have some sort of connotation then?
> 
> Not knowing such a basic word has shaken my mind.





souminwé said:


> Perhaps an insignificant question, but I've been wondering if there's a difference in usage between *baras* and *saal*. I was quite shocked to hear a Pakistani news channel saying *baras/barsoM *quite a few times.I know in literary Hindi, *baras* is the preferred word for writing/saying the date. I did not expect it to be in use in Pakistan at all (I thought it was one of those _desi_ words like *bya, pyo, pothi* etc. that you only encounter in *bhajan*s)
> 
> But what about in speaking? Why would you say *baras* over *saal*? To be honest, I almost always say *saal* and I only write *baras* (I avoid वर्ष except maybe in वर्षीय ). Can one say *meri bacci do barsoM ki hai* ? Does it have a rustic connotation? Does *saal* have some sort of connotation then?
> 
> Not knowing such a basic word has shaken my mind.


 Souminwé, you shouldn't be surprised that Urduphones use Indic words! Urdu _is_ an Indic language and, as you well know, with a very mixed heritage derived from the exposure of *KhaRii Bolii* to Persian and other languages. 

Our vocabulary has words from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Persian, Arabic, Turkish and many other languages - both Indic and European. Quite a big mix! Much like English, a Germanic tongue with strong Norman French influence and a vocabulary derived from many languages.

I’m always shocked when others are shocked to hear that we _urdugoyaan_ use pure Indic words like *baras*!We use it all the time!

In speech too we use *baras* and *saal *with great frequency and interchangeably! This is not just true of Urduphones in India (and I specially refer to Lucknow) but also Pakistan (Karachi esp.).


Incidentally, your sentence in Urdu would change to: 

*merii bachchiii do baras kii hai*

Or,

*meri bachchiii do saal kii hai*

[My _*ch*_ = your _*c*_  - unaspirated!]

_My daughter is 2 years old_

Both are used and there is _no bucolic element to_ the usage of *baras*! _BTW, we always have it as a* singular *in this kind of usage_.

Urdu poetry also uses baras / barsoN

مت سہل ہمیں جانو پھرتا ہے فلک برسوں
تب خاک کے پردے سے انسا ن نکلتا ہے


_mat sahl hameN jaano, phirtaa hai falak *barsoN*_
_tab xaak ke parde se insaan nikaltaa hai_

_Consider us not facile, the heavens revolve for *ages* _
 _Then from a cloud of dust, Man emerges!_

(Mir Taqi Mir)

 Please also not the nasalised plural *barsoN* for *baras*, above


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## souminwé

You are right QURESHPOR, my exposure to Urdu is not very extensive! 

Faylasoof, from the experience I have with Urdu speakers, they seem to be very comfortable dropping literary Urdu words in speech.  So, I made the assumption that Urdu has been rapidly trimmed off its excess Indic vocabulary.

Thank you both !


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Faylasoof, from the experience I have with Urdu speakers, they seem to be very comfortable dropping literary Urdu words in speech.  So, I made the assumption that Urdu has been rapidly trimmed off its excess Indic vocabulary.
> 
> Thank you both !



*It all depends on the situation one is in. If I was speaking with janaab-i-Faylasoof SaaHib or janaab-i-BP SaaHib, in a formal kind of environment, I would choose my words very carefully without sounding artificial. On the other hand if was speaking with someone very close , I would be much more relaxed in my vocabulary. The register selected is situation dependent.*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *It all depends on the situation one is in. If I was speaking with janaab-i-Faylasoof SaaHib or janaab-i-BP SaaHib, in a formal kind of environment, I would choose my words very carefully without sounding artificial. On the other hand if was speaking with someone very close , I would be much more relaxed in my vocabulary. The register selected is situation dependent.*


 QP  SaHeb, I agree that what register of Urdu we use does depend very much on the company we find ourselves in but would you be averse to using _*baras*_ if you had either BP SaHeb's company or mine? 

I say this because we use _*baras*_ quite a lot. Perhaps a little less than _*saal *_but all the same even in formal situations we wouldn't shy away from it.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP  SaHeb, I agree that what register of Urdu we use does depend very much on the company we find ourselves in but would you be averse to using _*baras*_ if you had either BP SaHeb's company or mine?
> 
> I say this because we use _*baras*_ quite a lot. Perhaps a little less than _*saal *_but all the same even in formal situations we wouldn't shy away from it.



*No, Faylasoof SaaHib. I would not "discriminate" against "baras" at all. My reply above was actually not restricted to "baras" but was meant to be quite general.*


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> *...**If I was speaking with ...janaab-i-BP SaaHib, in a formal kind of environment, I would choose my words very carefully without sounding artificial. On the other hand if was speaking with someone very close , I would be much more relaxed in my vocabulary. ...*



You're raising the bar too high and this mard ee naatawaan 3azm might not be able to reciprocate this weighing of words. I've always posted just as I converse with people. You could relax your andaazi sukhan towards me, no problem at all.

PS: Sorry for the punctual digression.


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## greatbear

Among Hindi speakers, "baras" does convey a very rustic connotation (surprisingly, the original "varsh" is so pedantic, that it's hardly used in common speech). "Saal" is the standard Hindi word.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> مت سہل ہمیں جانو پھرتا ہے فلک برسوں
> تب خاک کے پردے سے انسا ن نکلتا ہے
> 
> 
> _mat sahel hameN jaano, phirtaa hai falak *barsoN*_
> _tab xaak ke parde se insaan nikaltaa hai_
> 
> _Consider us not facile, the heavens revolve for *ages* _
> _Then from a cloud of dust, Man emerges!_
> 
> (Mir Taqi Mir)




*Faylasoof SaaHib. I presume your "sahel" is a typo?*


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## souminwé

greatbear said:


> Among Hindi speakers, "baras" does convey a very rustic connotation (surprisingly, the original "varsh" is so pedantic, that it's hardly used in common speech). "Saal" is the standard Hindi word.



Ah! This might be why I was so shocked. I've never heard anyone actually using _*baras*_ when speaking Hindi, so I didn't think there would be any reason for it to exist in Urdu!

Is this just one of those words that is incidentally more used in Urdu, or at least in Urdu as it is in Pakistan? Perhaps it's influenced by the regional languages there?


(On the other hand, seeing things like "1992 बरस" written seems not uncommon. I've seen lots of forms with the age filled out that way)


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## Qureshpor

souminwé said:


> Ah! This might be why I was so shocked. I've never heard anyone actually using _*baras*_ when speaking Hindi, so I didn't think there would be any reason for it to exist in Urdu!
> 
> *I won't quote any "Hindi" songs from Bollywood films because this won't be acceptable!*
> 
> Is this just one of those words that is incidentally more used in Urdu, or at least in Urdu as it is in Pakistan?
> 
> *Well, Faylasoof SaaHib has already answered this point by saying:
> 
> *In speech too we use *baras* and *saal *with great frequency and interchangeably! This is not just true of Urduphones in India (and I specially refer to Lucknow) but also Pakistan (Karachi esp.).
> 
> Perhaps it's influenced by the regional languages there?
> 
> *I don't think so. The examples I gave from Urdu poetry (and the Faylasoof's example from Miir) included Urdu poets as well as Punjabi Urdu poets. In "TheTh" Punjabi, "varha" is the word for "year" and most Punjabis would use "saal" in speech anyway. So, back to the drawing board regarding this theory!*
> 
> (On the other hand, seeing things like "1992 बरस" written seems not uncommon. I've seen lots of forms with the age filled out that way)
> 
> *It might be a useful exercise to see if Hindi speakers are able to provide quotes from their literature.*


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## panjabigator

Let the temporary Lakhnawi chime in here: I hear and read "baras" quite frequently in Lucknow, and not just in poetry. Souminwé, your sentence above sounds perfectly idiomatic in both Hindi and Urdu to my ears, though I do hear "saal" more frequently.

QP, I was going to mention the Punjabi word "varha" too. It's a great word and I don't hear it enough.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *Faylasoof SaaHib. I presume your "sahel" is a typo?
> *



Exactly so, QP SaHeb!  _sahl_ (سہل) - didn't even notice! Thanks! Amended.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Let the temporary Lakhnawi chime in here: I hear and read "baras" quite frequently in Lucknow, and not just in poetry. Souminwé, your sentence above sounds perfectly idiomatic in both Hindi and Urdu to my ears, though I do hear "saal" more frequently.
> 
> QP, I was going to mention the Punjabi word "varha" too. It's a great word and I don't hear it enough.



Precisely, PG SaHeb! That also was my experience when I last visited Lucknow. Good to know they are still using our good old idiom. As mentioned above (post#3) we use it nearly all the time when speaking. Used in writing too.

BTW when you say Souminwé's sentence sounds idiomatic, do you also mean his use of  _*do barsoM*_? Because in Urdu we'd just say _*do baras*_, _*das baras*_, _*biis baras*_ etc., i.e. it is always the singular _*baras*_ for us and never _*barsoN*_ (= many years / ages / a long time).


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## tonyspeed

I think this should prove a point that has been my experience as well. Urdu speakers are not phobic of Indic words. Many Urdu speakers are quick to tell me the MIXED heritage of their language with great pride. However, on-the-other-hand many of the "Hindi" speakers I know are quick to tell me that Hindi derives from Sanskrit (they never mention persian or arabic!).  In any case, the majority of the scaffolding of the Urdu language is Indic. We never point the finger at such verbs as _darnaa_ and _lagtaa_ or such particles as ko and kii, but all of those are Indic as well. No matter how much one tries, one can never extract the Indic from Urdu.


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> I think this should prove a point that has been my experience as well. Urdu  speakers are not phobic of Indic words. Many Urdu speakers are quick to  tell me the MIXED heritage of their language with great pride.  However, on-the-other-hand many of the "Hindi" speakers I know are quick  to tell me that Hindi derives from Sanskrit (they never mention persian  or arabic!).  In any case, the majority of the scaffolding of the Urdu  language is Indic. We never point the finger at such verbs as _darnaa_ and _lagtaa_  or such particles as ko and kii, but all of those are Indic as well. No  matter how much one tries, one can never extract the Indic from Urdu.


 _I don't wish us to start going off-topic here but just for the record ..._
Of  course tonyspeed! Any denial of this mixed heritage of Urdu would be  like an English(wo)man telling you that his / her language too is  not of a mixed heritage either!  BTW, Urdu-Hindi are not  derived directly from Sanskrit but rather from Prakrit and the KhaRii Bolli dialect. Even Modern High Hindi has a Prakrit base.

_Anyway, back to the topic! _

How would you use _*baras / saal*_ ? I mean do you  pluralise them? We always keep both singular even when talking about  numbers higher than one! As follows:



Faylasoof said:


> ....
> BTW when you say Souminwé's sentence sounds idiomatic, do you also mean his use of  _*do barsoM*_? Because in Urdu we'd just say _*do baras*_, _*das baras*_, _*biis baras*_ etc., i.e. it is always the singular _*baras*_ for us and never _*barsoN*_ (= many years / ages / a long time).



For us, _*baras / saal*_ are always used as a _singular_in the above context. For exmple,_* ka'ii baras / saal  se / tak*_ (since / for many years) and _never__* ka'ii*_ _*barsoN / saaloN se / tak*_.


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## souminwé

Thank you for all the insight into Urdu! I just heard *baras *on the news again, haha. I do like this word, I'll try to use it more!

Thanks also for clearing up the mistake with plurals!


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## BP.

souminwé said:


> Thank you for all the insight into Urdu! I just heard *baras *on the news again, haha. I do like this word, I'll try to use it more!
> ...


Would you like to hear it from Afghanistan's minister of education? Here see at 6:03 on (watch?v=GTZzOCrtbIo). We're not allowed to link youtube videos here so I'll leave it to you to reconstruct the URL.


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Among Hindi speakers, "baras" does convey a very rustic connotation (surprisingly, the original "varsh" is so pedantic, that it's hardly used in common speech). "Saal" is the standard Hindi word.


 I’m quite intrigued by this!  *baras* is an Indic word while *saal* we borrowed into Urdu from Persian (in turn from Pahlavi, with cognates in Avestan (Zend) and Sanskrit ! Anyway, as I said earlier, we use both all the time!

 Here is Platts entry for each:

H برس बरस baras [S. वर्ष], s.m. Year;—raining, rain:—baras-badhāwā, s.m. A Hindū marriage ceremony (the taking away from the bride at the close of the first year after marriage the god or bundle of cocoanut, rice, &c. given to her at the time of marriage):—baras-bhar, baras-din, baras-roz, s.m. The whole year;—adv. All the year round:—baras-byāwaṛ, s.f. A cow or buffalo that calves every year:—baras-din, baras-roz, s.m.=baras-bhar, q.v.:—baras-din- (or roz-) -kā, adj. A year's;—baras-din-kā din, s.m. An annual festival or holiday:—baras-gāṅṭh (S. varsha+granthi), s.f. The ceremony of tying a knot on the anniversary of one's birthday; (hence) anniversary of a birthday.


P سال sāl [Pehl. śāl; Zend śaredha; S. शरद्], s.m. A year:—sāl-ě-āyanda (vulg. -āʼinda), s.m. Next year:—sāl-ba-sāl, adv. Year by year, annually:—sāl-bhar, adv. A whole year; all the year round:—sāl-ě-paivasta, s.m. & adv. The year before last:—sāl-tamām, s.m. or sāl-tamāmī, s.f. An annual report:—sāl-tamām-par, adv. At the end of the year:—sāl-jhaṛtī jamʻ-ḵẖarć, Yearly account of receipts and disbursements; debit and credit account:—sāl-ḥāṣil, s.m. Yearly produce:—sāl-ě-ḥāl, s.m. The present year:—sāl-ě-ḥisābī (or ḥisābī sāl), s.m. Official or financial year:—sāl-ḵẖẉurda, adj. Old in years, old, aged; worn out;—experienced:—sāl-ě-zirāʻat, s.m. The agricultural year:—sāl-ě-faṣlī, s.m. The fuṣlī year:—sāl-ě-kabīsa, s.m. Intercalary year; leap year; a year of thirteen months, which comes round every three years:—sāl-girah, s.f. lit. 'Year-knot, or age-knot'; birthday, anniversary of (one's) birthday (when a knot is tied in a string or thread kept as a record of one's age;-syn. baras-gāṅṭh):-sāl-ě-guẓashta, s.m. The past year, last year:—sāl-gasht, adv. Old in years:—sāl-ě-mālī, s.m. The revenue year:—sāl-ě-mahājanī, s.m. The mercantile year (concurrent with the Samvat year, but commencing two months later):—sāl-wār, adv. By the year; according to the year or years:—sāl-o-māh, adv. lit. 'Years and months'; always, at all times.


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## rahulbemba

souminwé said:


> Perhaps an insignificant question, but I've been wondering if there's a difference in usage between _*baras*_ and _*saal*_. I was quite shocked to hear a Pakistani news channel saying *baras/barsoM *quite a few times. I know in literary Hindi, _*baras*_ is the preferred word for writing/saying the date. I did not expect it to be in use in Pakistan at all (I thought it was one of those _desi_ words like _*bya, pyo, pothi*_ etc. that you only encounter in _*bhajan*_s)
> 
> But what about in speaking? Why would you say _*baras*_ over _*saal*_? To be honest, I almost always say _*saal*_ and I only write _*baras*_ (I avoid वर्ष except maybe in वर्षीय ). Can one say _*meri bacci do barsoM ki hai*_ ? Does it have a rustic connotation? Does _*saal*_ have some sort of connotation then?
> 
> Not knowing such a basic word has shaken my mind.



From practical application, वर्ष is used quite often in Hindi, in India. Saal साल is most popular, as you say. Baras बरस is used quite extensively in songs and in literature, though there are people in certain regions who regularly use this word. But as you say, saal is used most. My personal opinion from experience.


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## marrish

From reading of all previous posts I get the impression that baras is not universally used in Hindi. Is it true? In Urdu, most of the time in official Urdu in news but also in speech and poetry, it has been used quite extensively.

Another question which incorporates the matter of schwa syncope: in plural oblique: should or is it _barasoN_ or _barsoN_? Is it ever pronounced as "bars" in the singular?


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## Dib

"Baras" does sound rustic to me in *spoken* Hindi. The plural oblique, I believe, must be "barsoN". "*BarasoN" does not sound plausible in native H-U phonotactics. I think, the rule is that schwa is deleted from an open syllable when preceeded by another open syllable. When it involves consecutive open syllables, both/all containing schwa, the rule is probably more complex.


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## littlepond

"baras" is often used in Hindi, especially in poetry: it gives a poetic or, as Dib jii said, a rustic feel to everything. The oblique plural is "barson", not "barason". Singular is usually not "bars" (though it is "varsh").


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## marrish

Thank you. In this case we can note a major difference between Hindi and Urdu as in Urdu it is a commonplace and has absolutely no bucolic associations. Remains the case of poetry, as we know, Urdu is being called a poetic language by Hindi speakers (and for a reason).

My question about "barasoN" was purely hypothetical, I never heard it.


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> Remains the case of poetry, as we know, Urdu is being called a poetic language by Hindi speakers (and for a reason).



I do not understand where does this come from: are you trying to claim some exclusive ownership of Urdu over "baras" (which is anyway a corruption of the Sanskrit/Hindi "varsh")? (And over poeticness, to boot?)


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## Dib

Obviously it is coming from the fact that Urdu uses this word (baras) in both mundane and literary situations, while Hindi speakers apparently find it a poetic word. In any case, I thought it was a joke from marrish jee's side.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Obviously it is coming from the fact that Urdu uses this word (baras) in mundane situations, while Hindi speakers apparently find it a poetic word.


Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a few examples of its use in Hindi poetry. As the earlier posts with quotes from the best of Urdu poets show, "baras" is used not only in "mundane" situations by Urdu speakers but also in literature of the highest quality, even when addressing royalty.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a few examples of its use in Hindi poetry. As the earlier posts with quotes from the best of Urdu poets show, "baras" is used not only in "mundane" situations by Urdu speakers but also in literature of the highest quality, even when addressing royalty.


But also in everyday speech. Anyway, let me thank Dib for his answer so that I am spared from using rhetorics. Whether one calls "baras" a corruption or a development testifies to one's emotional approach, which, in this case "marrish" is not extant.


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a few examples of its use in Hindi poetry.



Sorry. Not me. I have virtually no acquaintance with Hindi poetry. That's why I said "apparently".



> As the earlier posts with quotes from the best of Urdu poets show, "baras" is used not only in "mundane" situations by Urdu speakers but also in literature of the highest quality, even when addressing royalty.



Sorry, my bad. I didn't mean to imply only mundane. I have edited my post accordingly.


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> ... one's emotional approach



Or another: linguistic approach.


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## Dib

littlepond said:


> Or another: linguistic approach.



I doubt there is a commonly agreed historical linguistic distinction between "corruption" and "development". It may be defined in specific cases, but a general definition, as far as I know, does not exist. "Corruption" and "development" both are, basically, "changes".


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## mundiya

I won't comment about "rustic" versus "urban", but "saal" is more frequently used by Urdu speakers than "baras" so the trend is similar to that of Hindi.


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## littlepond

Dib said:


> I doubt there is a commonly agreed historical linguistic distinction between "corruption" and "development". It may be defined in specific cases, but a general definition, as far as I know, does not exist. "Corruption" and "development" both are, basically, "changes".



I do agree.


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a few examples of its use in Hindi poetry.



Quresh jii, I think you've got yourself confused here between "poetry" and "poeticness": while in Hindi you will find all three ("baras", "saal", "varsh") in poetry (the choice of word depends on the poem's register), this was never the question, and reproducing some lines of Hindi poetry doesn't serve any purpose.* I had mentioned the 'poeticness' of 'baras' (usually, not always), which simply means that in day-to-day life's conversations if one were to use it, then, in most** situations, if the speaker is not from rural background, it would add poeticness to his/her speech at that particular moment. "baras" is, hence, also often used in ordinary speech by non-rural speakers as well, but usually as a choice to add this flavour.***

* Reproducing poetry might be your style of arguing; however, some of us do not belong to such cultural backgrounds where you have to spout some literature to back your words (since we are _not_ discussing literature). My humble request to you, Quresh jii, _once again_, to please stop imposing your style of argument over others. Please respect others on a public forum.
** There are certain situations/idioms where "baras" is used, not the more frequent "saal": e.g., "kai barsoN kii yaad taazaa kar dii us ne". "saaloN" can be used, but in this kind of phrasing, I hear it less. In such kinds of situations, the rural element is absent: it's just an idiom-like circumstance.
*** The poeticness itself comes _because_ of the rural flavour of "baras".


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## marrish

Your quibbles are not significant since "baras" is used in spoken Urdu, I would risk a statement that it is more common than "saal". Nothing rustic to it, as I said before but anyway, thank you for your contribution.


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> I would risk a statement that it is more common than "saal".



That's interesting.  My Urdu speaking friends mainly use "saal".  Same goes for my family elders and other relatives who were primarily educated in Urdu.  In general, I perceive "saal" to be more common than "baras" whether the speaker is of a Hindi or Urdu background.  I agree with you that it is not an issue of "rustic" versus "urban".


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## Qureshpor

^ Your perception is a very fair and accurate one. But it does seem in Urdu it is more common than Hindi, going by Hindi speaking friends' contributions.


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## marrish

Yes, on hindsight, I must say that my risking a statement about "saal" being less common than "baras" is an exaggeration but still, it is certainly *very* common in Urdu and it does not bear any rustic stamp, so I agree with mundiya jii.


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> Or another: linguistic approach.


Yes, equally possible. But whether one calls it corruption or development, it does not change anything as far as facts are concerned. Am I right that you would not say "_chakra_ kaaT rahe haiN" but "_chakkar_ kaaT rahe haiN"?


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## littlepond

^ Yes, I would say 'chakkar', and I would again say 'chakkar' as 'corruption' of 'chakra': nothing pejorative about the word 'corruption'. Similarly, many use 'kharach' for 'kharch', 'muurakh' for 'muurkh' and so on.


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## Qureshpor

littlepond said:


> Quresh jii, I think you've got yourself confused here between "poetry" and "poeticness": while in Hindi you will find all three ("baras", "saal", "varsh") in poetry (the choice of word depends on the poem's register), this was never the question, and reproducing some lines of Hindi poetry doesn't serve any purpose.* I had mentioned the 'poeticness' of 'baras' (usually, not always), which simply means that in day-to-day life's conversations if one were to use it, then, in most** situations, if the speaker is not from rural background, it would add poeticness to his/her speech at that particular moment. "baras" is, hence, also often used in ordinary speech by non-rural speakers as well, but usually as a choice to add this flavour.***
> 
> * Reproducing poetry might be your style of arguing; however, some of us do not belong to such cultural backgrounds where you have to spout some literature to back your words (since we are _not_ discussing literature). My humble request to you, Quresh jii, _once again_, to please stop imposing your style of argument over others. Please respect others on a public forum.
> ** There are certain situations/idioms where "baras" is used, not the more frequent "saal": e.g., "kai barsoN kii yaad taazaa kar dii us ne". "saaloN" can be used, but in this kind of phrasing, I hear it less. In such kinds of situations, the rural element is absent: it's just an idiom-like circumstance.
> *** The poeticness itself comes _because_ of the rural flavour of "baras".


My comment was a direct response to Dib Jii. So, please calm down, sit back and relax.


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> ^ Yes, I would say 'chakkar', and I would again say 'chakkar' as 'corruption' of 'chakra': nothing pejorative about the word 'corruption'. Similarly, many use 'kharach' for 'kharch', 'muurakh' for 'muurkh' and so on.


This is understood. Incidentally, Urdu uses only "corruputions" or "developments", so it is "muurakh"in this language but xarch always, I never heard xarach or kharach. Issue settled, littlepond jii. I understand your viewpoint.


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