# FR: X et moi, nous ; tes frères et toi, vous - reprise du sujet



## jbailz

I have a few friends who live in France, so whenever we talk online, we always try to write in French.

During one of my first French classes, I think I remember my professor saying that, with no exceptions, one must include the subject pronoun when we speak or write. But I've noticed my French friends often exclude the pronoun.

For example, I wrote to my friend, "ma famille et moi, nous avons déménagé à Seattle," but afterwards, I thought it sounded repetitive to include "nous" because "ma famille et moi" was obviously the subject. Another example would be, "Ma sœur, elle a 21 ans". Is "elle" necessary?

Any help is appreciated!


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## sandman2

Your instincts are right, you DON'T always need a subject pronoun, although you do need a subject.  In your two examples, your subjects are 'ma famille et moi' and 'ma soeur'.

[…]


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## valskyfrance

Ma soeur a 21 ans (no elle, sinon il y a répétition du sujet.)
Ma famille et moi... (même chose, pas besoin du Nous)


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## Outsider

jbailz said:


> For example, I wrote to my friend, "ma famille et moi, nous avons déménagé à Seattle," but afterwards, I thought it sounded repetitive to include "nous" because "ma famille et moi" was obviously the subject. Another example would be, "Ma sœur, elle a 21 ans". Is "elle" necessary?


First of all, you can leave out "nous" and "elle" but that still leaves you with a subject:

"Ma famille et moi avons déménagé à Seattle" --> "Ma famille et moi" is the subject of "avons déménagé".
"Ma sœur a 21 ans" --> "Ma sœur" is the subject of "a".

Secondly, while leaving out the subject pronoun is possible in both cases, I believe adding it is more idiomatic and colloquial.


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## Fred_C

Hi, 
yes and no.
Adding an extra pronoun if the person is third singular or plural is indeed very colloquial, and not recommended at all in a written text.
"Ma soeur, elle a 21 ans" is very colloquial.
The normal form is "Ma soeur a 21 ans".
For first and second person plural pronouns (nous and vous), on the contrary, adding a superfluous pronoun is quite normal.
"Ma famille et moi, nous avons déménagé" is a normal sentence.
omitting the pronoun "nous" as in "ma famille et moi avons déménagé" sounds written french, and you are unlikely to hear it spoken. (That does not mean never, though!)


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## Wotcher

In French, do you always have to use the subject pronoun even though you are using a noun in the sentence?

Example:

" Cette semaine, mon mari et moi, *nous* allons partir en vacances ".

Is it necessary to include nous, or can it be left out of the sentence?

Thanks for your help.


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## Oddmania

No, it's not necessary 

_Mon mari et moi allons partir en vacances._

Adding _nous_ sounds more colloquial.


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## Wotcher

Thanks so much!

I've always been used to using the pronouns at all time. Now I know I don't have to!


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## Oddmania

Actually, many many many French people do use them 

I think saying _Mon mari et moi allons partir en vacances_ sounds rather... Well, not really _old-fashioned_, but a bit pretentious (only while speaking, obviously).

This is a French particularity. _Mon mari et moi allons partir_ may sound too long, so speakers think they have to add _Nous_ (or _On_, which sounds more colloquial) to start over the sentence.

_Mon mari et moi, nous allons partir en vacances._


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## frankjac

"Charles at I speak French."

Distinctions or levels of language or frequencey  between:

Charles et moi, nous parlons francais.

AND

Charles et moi parlons francais.


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## xtrasystole

Both are strictly equivalent, I believe. 

The latter is more concise, flows smoothly and may sound slightly better in spoken language (perhaps).


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## SwissPete

"Charles *and *I speak French."

Right?


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## frankjac

Right, Charles and I speak French.

So, frequency of either ---
Charles et moi parlons français.
ou
Charles et moi nous parlons français.


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## xtrasystole

depends on the context.

75% _vs_ 25%, I would say.


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## The Prof

What about:
_"Charles et moi, *on parle* français."_ ?

I have often heard "on" used in this type of sentence, but never been sure how widespread or acceptable it is.


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## Lacuzon

Hi,

It is colloquial.


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## xtrasystole

The Prof said:


> What about:
> _"Charles et moi, *on parle* français."_ ?


Yes  , that's a very common form —but colloquial. In spoken French only.


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## frankjac

Clearly, you get into problems when you want to say:
"Charles and I are taking a walk."
Dropping the subject pronoun, then gives us:
"Charles et moi nous promenons.

vs."Charles et moi nous nous promenons."

 […]


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## Doude

No, you definitely need "Charles et moi nous *nous *promenons", "Charles et moi nous promenons" can be understood but it is a bit confusing... 

[…]


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## Maître Capello

Well, actually, both are correct and I prefer the latter…


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## Doude

Sure, you can say it but it seems to me a bit strange when spoken. It wouldn't be ambiguous if you write it, but in oral communication, I prefer saying "Charles et moi, nous _nous _promenons"... But that's a detail


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## Maître Capello

Why would it be ambiguous in speech? 

At any rate, you prefer duplicating _nous_ and I prefer not repeating it—it is really a matter of personal taste…


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## Doude

I asked other friends about that, and they also told me that they prefer "Charles et moi _nous_ promenons" when written and "Charles et moi _nous nous_ promenons" when spoken... 
But I agree with you, that's personal taste; I just gave mine to frankjac


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## Francobritannocolombien

Maître Capello said:


> Why would it be ambiguous in speech?



It's not so much that it's _ambiguous _but it is somewhat confusing because you can't see the comma when you speak, so it takes a while to process the "nous": is it the subject or the object of the verb? Since "promener" can't be used without an object (reflexive or direct), you have to be certain that the sentence is over, and that the speaker is not going to add "le chien" at the end, to know that the object has to be "nous" and that the verb is used reflexively. 

Now with a verb that can be used both intransitively and transitively, that structure could definitely be ambiguous when used in speech: in "Charles et moi(,) nous parlons souvent", the punctuation makes the whole difference.


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## xtrasystole

I agree 100% with Francobritannocolombien. I don't think it's just a matter of personal taste.


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## Maître Capello

Francobritannocolombien said:


> Now with a verb that can be used both intransitively and transitively, that structure could definitely be ambiguous when used in speech: in "Charles et moi(,) nous parlons souvent", the punctuation makes the whole difference.


OK, _that_ sentence is ambiguous because you changed the verb, but with _(se) promener_, I really don't see any ambiguity or confusion… Do you really find the following sentence confusing? 

_Charles et moi nous promenons souvent au bord du lac._


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## Nicomon

Maître Capello said:


> Do you really find the following sentence confusing?
> 
> _Charles et moi nous promenons souvent au bord du lac._


 This sentence is perfectly clear to me. I don't like the sound of « _et moi nous nous_ » either.

But then if you stop at _promenons_, I agree with Fcb; you have to be sure that the sentence is over. _Promenons_... _qui? où?_

_Charles et moi faisons une promenade / Charles et moi, on se promène_
_Je me promène/fais une promenade en compagnie de Charles _

Et à la québécoise (familier... et calqué) : _Je prends une marche avec Charles_


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## Francobritannocolombien

Maître Capello said:


> OK, _that_ sentence is ambiguous because you changed the verb,



The title of the thread I answered was "Charles and I _speak _French." C'est pas moi qui ai changé le verbe le premier, m'sieur!




> but with _(se) promener_, I really don't see any ambiguity or confusion… Do you really find the following sentence confusing?
> 
> _Charles et moi nous promenons souvent au bord du lac._


I don't find it confusing if I read it, but orally, as I explained, there would be a brief moment of confusion until I can process "nous" as a reflexive object, i.e. when I hear that "souvent" is not followed by a direct object such as, say, "notre vieille grand-mère."


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## Maître Capello

Francobritannocolombien said:


> The title of the thread I answered was "Charles and I _speak _French." C'est pas moi qui ai changé le verbe le premier, m'sieur!


 You are correct regarding the verb, but you did change the end of the original question though, and _that_ makes a big difference… _Charles et moi parlons *le français*_ is indeed not confusing at all, contrary to your own sentence, _Charles et moi(,) nous parlons *souvent*…_


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## WatsJusto

Pour la phrase: "Are you and your brothers going to the beach this weekend?", je pense que c'est possible de dire: "Allez-vous à la plage ce week-end, tes frères et toi?" ou "Est-ce que vous allez à la plage ce week-end, tes frères et toi?" mais, est-ce qu'on peut effacer le mot "vous" et faire suivre le verbe après le sujet, comme: "Est-ce que tes frères et toi allez à la plage ce week-end?"  Il me semble que ça ne soit pas possible pour 'vous' ni pour 'nous', comme: "Mon ami et moi allons au marché", il faut dire: "Mon ami et moi, nous allons..." j'ai raison?


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## kleintje971

En français littéraire et propre, le nous/vous est obligatoire.  Irez-vous tes frères et toi à la plage ce weeke-end?


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## Jeanne75

Hi,

Actually everything is correct in your proposals (I added one):
"Allez-vous à la plage ce week-end, tes frères et toi?"
"Est-ce que vous allez à la plage ce week-end, tes frères et toi?"
"Est-ce que tes frères et toi allez à la plage ce week-end?"
*"Tes frères et toi allez-vous à la plage ce week end"
*
"Mon ami et moi allons au marché"
"Mon ami et moi, nous allons..."

The fact to add "est-ce que" or add an "incise" is less formal but gramatically everything is *absolutely* correct in my view.

Klientje971 is right, in a question you will have to add "vous" but because of the interrogative form after the verb and with an hyphen.

In the affirmative I don't think it is necessary - but again more formal.
*Tes frères et toi irez à la plage *is fine by me.

Cheers


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## Maître Capello

kleintje971 said:


> En français littéraire et propre, le nous/vous est obligatoire.


 Non, pas du tout. La reprise du sujet par le pronom correspondant est certes obligatoire si on fait l'inversion, mais l'inversion n'est certainement pas la seule façon de poser une question, même dans un contexte littéraire. Les questions avec _est-ce que_ conviennent tant dans la langue de tous les jours que dans un langage châtié. Et dans ce cas, il vaut mieux ne pas alourdir inutilement la phrase et éviter la duplication du sujet.

_Est-ce que tes frères et toi allez à la plage ce week-end ?
Tes frères et toi allez-*vous* à la plage ce week-end ?_

_Mes amis et moi allons au marché_.


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