# Persian: to save face



## seitt

Hi,

I believe that if I shame someone, I carry out the action of آب رویش را ریختن.

If that person is able to prevent me from doing it, and ends up without being shamed at all, he is able to "save face", as they say in English.

Please, how do you say “to save face”?

All the best, and many thanks,

Simon


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## searcher123

First of all, *آب رويش را ريختن* is wrong. Correct is *آبرويش را ريختن *or in common,* آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ ريختن*. When you split* آبرو *in separate parts, each part have an independent meaning: آب (water)+روي (upon)+ش (him/her). Your sentences means "removing the water from upon a person/thing", however, we use other sentences in this meaning and آب رويش را ريختن is not a common sentences in Persian.


But your answer: Opposite of *آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ ريختن" *is  *"آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ خريدن"* or *"آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ حفظ كردن"*.

And a more donate 
In Persian, *shame* have a different meaning of *dishonour*. Shame means "شرمنده كردن". When you "shame someone", you embarrassment him/her just for yourself and himself/herself (او را پيش خودتان و خودش شرمنده مي‌كنيد). Dishonour means "آبرو بردن". when you "dishonour someone", you embarrassment him/her for many peoples (in family, in county, in town, in country, in world, ...) (او را در مقابل افراد زيادي مثل افراد خانواده، محله، شهر، كشور، جهان و غيره شرمنده مي‌كنيد).

In other word, شرمنده شدن will be occurred just between two people: you & he; you & she; He & God and she & God (I'm sorry. I know God is not people, but I don't know any better word instead of people or person for God in English) . But آبرو رفتن is occurred between more that two people and is very dipper of شرمنده شدن.


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## seitt

Many thanks for the extremely useful correction and the excellent answer.
آبرو is a very interesting idiom. I can't help comparing it with the concept behind this proverb: “آتش که گرفت، خشک و تر میسوزد.”

In Persian, does water (and therefore wetness) symbolize innocence? Anything to do with the innocence of babies, who are born “wet”?


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## timboleicester

Listen guys, are you sure about all this....I am really sorry but I can't read the script very well but sure Ab+ru means water + soul/spirit and not on as you suggest. As in Por Ru for cheeky.... Kam ru etc

and not the ru for ru ye miz ast..... I am going to work out the rest of the script now...


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## Faylasoof

timboleicester said:


> Listen guys, are you sure about all this....I am really sorry but I can't read the script very well but sure Ab+ru means water + soul/spirit and not on as you suggest. As in Por Ru for cheeky.... Kam ru etc
> 
> and not the ru for ru ye miz ast..... I am going to work out the rest of the script now...


 Hello timboleicester!

I'm afraid you are mistaken! Here is Hayyim:

 آبرُو (_aaberoo_) Reputation, esteem. Dignity.
آبرو (ی کسیرا) ربختن یا بردن To put to shame, to disgrace (some one) Ex. آبروی مرابرد

We use آبرُو in Urdu too! Sometimes in combination as: _3izzat  o aabruu_ عزت و آبرُو
– shares its meaning with Persian above. For us, آبرُو or عزت و آبرُو = honour, esteem , character, renown, reputation, dignity.

…. and this آبرُو  is different from:

آبرَو (_aabrow_) An aqueduct a watercourse, a conduit = _raah e aab_ راه آب 


Sorry, but where did you get this meaning? BTW, ru is not soul / spirit. I guess you mean _ruuH / ruu7_ روح ; and there is also جان _jaan_  and روان _rawaan_.


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## searcher123

seitt said:


> Many thanks for the extremely useful correction and the excellent answer.
> آبرو is a very interesting idiom. I can't help comparing it with the concept behind this proverb: “آتش که گرفت، خشک و تر میسوزد.”
> 
> In Persian, does water (and therefore wetness) symbolize innocence? Anything to do with the innocence of babies, who are born “wet”?



آبرو (that is pronounced as "uberoo" with first u as "u" in Up) is not an idiom. It is a simple word just as other words that means "the state of being highly esteemed and having a good reputation". Synonyms: حيثيت, اعتبار

Your suggested proverb have not any coherence and relation with آبرو. Word by word meaning of that is "When fire is flaming, if woods are old and dry or new and wet, all of them will be fired". (وقتي اتش شعله‌ور شود، اگر چوب خشك باشد يا  تر، به هرحال خواهد سوخت و تفاوتي بين آن دو گذاشته نخواهد شد). That means "when a war, horrible accident or unpleasant situation is occured, there will not be any difference between innocent or guilty peoples and all of them will be hurt".

Don't think about water at all when you are thinking about آبرو.


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## searcher123

timboleicester said:


> Listen guys, are you sure about all this....I am really sorry but I can't read the script very well but sure Ab+ru means water + soul/spirit and not on as you suggest. As in Por Ru for cheeky.... Kam ru etc
> 
> and not the ru for ru ye miz ast..... I am going to work out the rest of the script now...



There is not any word in the world that be spelled as آبروح.

رو have many meanings, but no one of them is روح.


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## timboleicester

I am not saying it doesn't mean what you say. I was however challenging the water+ upon theory. I even called a friend and she admitted she thought that aaberoo was just one word and nothing to do with water at all but she was going to find out. As I am not native and my writing is very poor I can't see the difference between "ruh" or "ru" apologies...

If, by the was aaberoo has nothing to do with water it seems rather coincidental that the associated verb is  riktan =to pour ie water


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## searcher123

timboleicester said:


> I am not saying it doesn't mean what you say. I was however challenging the water+ upon theory. I even called a friend and she admitted she thought that aaberoo was just one word and nothing to do with water at all but she was going to find out. As I am not native and my writing is very poor I can't see the difference between "ruh" or "ru" apologies...



The difference between Rooh (روح﴿ and Roo (رو) is an additional "Heh" (ح) at the end of Rooh! This additional "Heh" is created a new word of "Roo" with a very very different meaning. You have similar words in English too. For example, "Too" have a additional "o" at the end in compare with "To", but the meaning of "Too" is very very different of "To" and these two are different words.




timboleicester said:


> If, by the was aaberoo has nothing to do with water it seems rather coincidental that the associated verb is  riktan =to pour ie water



Well, you can use some of the other verbs for Aaberoo (آبرو) too. One of them is Bordan (بردن). For example, آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ ريختن that is pronounced as "Aaberooye (kasi raa) rikhtan" is exactly with the same meaning as آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ بردن that is pronounced as "Aaberooye (kasi raa) bordan".


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## timboleicester

searcher123 said:


> The difference between Rooh (روح﴿ and Roo (رو) is an additional "Heh" (ح) at the end of Rooh! This additional "Heh" is created a new word of "Roo" with a very very different meaning. You have similar words in English too. For example, "Too" have a additional "o" at the end in compare with "To", but the meaning of "Too" is very very different of "To" and these two are different words.


 
Well I still think you are wrong in fact it's too much of a coincidence. We discussed that when you shame someone their colour might conceivably change.... ab ruh ra kasi ricktan.... this is a possible etymology of the word...they go red they heat up and therefore they ahve lost water somewhere.... it's just an idea..

I didn't make myself clear as I don't write farsi I didn't know the difference between ruh and ru.... 



> Well, you can use some of the other verbs for Aaberoo (آبرو) too. One of them is Bordan (بردن). For example, آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ ريختن that is pronounced as "Aaberooye (kasi raa) rikhtan" is exactly with the same meaning as آبروي ﴿كسي را﴾ بردن that is pronounced as "Aaberooye (kasi raa) bordan".


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## searcher123

timboleicester said:
			
		

> Well I still think you are wrong in fact it's too much of a coincidence.  We discussed that when you shame someone their colour might conceivably  change.... ab ruh ra kasi ricktan.... this is a possible etymology of  the word...they go red they heat up and therefore they ahve lost water  somewhere.... it's just an idea..



You have created a new word to legitimatize your definitions. May be the root of Aaberoo (آبرو) have been extracted of a word of 2000 years ago just as your definition. I don't know about that, but *seitt* was not talking about a word etymology of 2000 year ago. he like to know about current Persion language. At the present, there is not any word that be spelled "Aabrooh"! (آبروح).

You can think there is a word called (Aabrooh) "آبروح" in my native Persian language. No problem.


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## Shahrooz

Thanks for the comprehensive explanations. But may I go as simple as this?:

ab-e roo = ab (water) + roo (face, the appearance of sth) , that "e" acts as "of" ;( the knob "of" the door 

To save one's face =  ab-e roo-ye kasi ra hefz kardan  (آبروی کسی را حفظ کردن)  = to save one's credibility, reputation from being spoiled or vitiated. 

roo or ru, as you feel comfortable, stands for "face" "mien" , and that "ru" you mentioned for " ru ye miz ast" better to say and write "ruy-e" or "rooy" not "ru" or "roo" and that's a different word:

roo, or ru = face, appearance, courage , . . . . 

rooy = on   , rooy-e miz = on the table,   but,,    kam ru = shy,  (kam = little, low), ru , here means the courage to meet people or face the reality. 

I hope I could shed more light on the matter.


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## timboleicester

رضا said:


> Thanks for the comprehensive explanations. But may I go as simple as this?:
> 
> ab-e roo = ab (water) + roo (face, the appearance of sth) , that "e" acts as "of" ;( the knob "of" the door
> 
> To save one's face = ab-e roo-ye kasi ra hefz kardan (آبروی کسی را حفظ کردن) = to save one's credibility, reputation from being spoiled or vitiated.
> 
> roo or ru, as you feel comfortable, stands for "face" "mien" , and that "ru" you mentioned for " ru ye miz ast" better to say and write "ruy-e" or "rooy" not "ru" or "roo" and that's a different word:
> 
> roo, or ru = face, appearance, courage , . . . .
> 
> rooy = on , rooy-e miz = on the table, but,, kam ru = shy, (kam = little, low), ru , here means the courage to meet people or face the reality.
> 
> I hope I could shed more light on the matter.


 

Indeed...most interesting...


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## timboleicester

searcher123 said:


> You have created a new word to legitimatize your definitions. May be the root of Aaberoo (آبرو) have been extracted of a word of 2000 years ago just as your definition. I don't know about that, but *seitt* was not talking about a word etymology of 2000 year ago. he like to know about current Persion language. At the present, there is not any word that be spelled "Aabrooh"! (آبروح).
> 
> You can think there is a word called (Aabrooh) "آبروح" in my native Persian language. No problem.


 
Yes I accept totally that ruh has an extra letter but that in no way means that the ru in aaabru doesnt come from this word. Losing letters and sounds in the evolution of languages is by no means uncommon. You seem to suggest that I am arguing with you about the word aabroo. I am not. 

I do think it has something to do with water however and it is your reply to the post that got me curious as you state that ab=water and ru = upon... I then posited the notion that it was ruh. But you seem dead agasint this because ruh has an extra letter. This proves nothing however.

We now have another intervention suggestion that the ru is now face...not upon or spirit or soul....so there we have it...the debate continues.


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## turkcurious

Let's call it a day as the origibal poster has only asked the equivalent of "save face" which is حفظ آبرو کردن.
Good luck.
TC


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## timboleicester

turkcurious said:


> Let's call it a day as the origibal poster has only asked the equivalent of "save face" which is حفظ آبرو کردن.
> Good luck.
> TC


 
I don't see why you are being so sniffy...we were discussing additional posts which is within the rules...the moderators will removed posts that are outside the law.


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## Faylasoof

*Moderator Note:*

*Although to a limit extent we do discuss etymologies in the IIL (Indo-Iranian Languages) board, it is mostly for clarification purposes. As far as آبرو aaberoo goes we seem to have no clear answer as to its etymology. I don’t see the point of continuing this discussion here. *

*We have a board dedicated to etymologies and language histories. Please feel free to start a new thread for آبرو aaberoo etymology there. You may also get feed back from those who do not usually participate in the IIL board.   *

*The query of the OP has already been satisfactorily answered!*


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