# Racism in European Football (Soccer and the World Cup)



## Bienvenidos

Some of the best football (soccer) players in the world have been victims of racial slurrs and other racially motivated actions at recent soccer games. European crowds curse at the African players, and even throw bananas on the field, calling them "monkeys". A Spanish coach told his players to "Show that black peice of shit that you're better than him", referring to an African player on the team. Here in the United States, such widespread racism in sports does not exist. Do European forer@s see these racist acts as "the norm"? Why are European nations so comfortable with this blunt racism? Of course, these actions do not represent the entire continent of Europe, only a select few who choose to act this way and show racial retaliation. Basically: all Europeans aren't racists...but it seems like a lot are.

Your opinions?

Unos de los mejores jugadores del fútbol han sido víctimas de racismo y otros acciones malas. Muchedumbres europeos maldicen a los jugadores africanos y aun tiran bananas al campo, llamándolos "monos (los que comen bananas)". Un entrenador les dice a los jugadores, "Mostrad eso pedazo de mierda negra que sois mejor que él", refiendo al jugador africano. Aquí en los EE.UU, racismo en los deportes no existe. ¿Ven los foreros europeos estas acciónes racistas como "el normal"?

¿Vuestras opiniones?

*Bien*


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## Brioche

International soccer is pretty much war by another name.

As they say "All is fair in love and war", and winning is the only thing that matters.

So some people will try anything, if they think it will help their country to win the World Cup.


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## Fernando

I do not consider the football is specially racist. In the Spanish case, the trainer was not referring to an African. If I recall correctly, he was referring to a French. As he pointed out he is a friend of several black players (Samuel Eto'o from Cameroon, as an example). Anyway I consider he should not have said that.

People insult the other people's team, saying them:

- Sons of a ...
- Balds (if they are)
- their sexual attributes are small
- their sexual attributes are far too big
- they have no sexual apetite
- They are homosexuals
- They have too much sexual apetite
- they are short
- they are tall

Most times, THEY HAVE black players in their teams and they do not even notice. It is just another way to insult.

Do I enjoy it? No. But that is why I do not use to go to any crowd: The crowd is dumb. By definition.


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## cuchuflete

Bienvenidos said:
			
		

> European *crowds *curse...  throw bananas on the field, ... these actions do not represent the entire continent of Europe, *only a select few *who choose to act this way and show racial retaliation.



Which is it?  'Crowds' are not 'a few'.

There are lots of racists in Europe and throughout the world.
Why give them the benefit of pretending they are not many?


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## Vanda

Fernando, according to what our players in Spain teams tell us here, they feel pretty insulted by the bananas thrown on them. But as you said it: "The crowd is dumb. By definition."


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## Outsider

FIFA has issued new regulations against discrimination, so I wouldn't say that people are comfortable with it.


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## Bienvenidos

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Which is it?  'Crowds' are not 'a few'.
> 
> There are lots of racists in Europe and throughout the world.
> Why give them the benefit of pretending they are not many?



I didn't want Europeans to think that I'm accusing all of them of being racists, because all of them aren't, only those who choose to be.

*Bien*


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## Fernando

Vanda said:
			
		

> Fernando, according to what our players in Spain teams tell us here, they feel pretty insulted by the bananas thrown on them. But as you said it: "The crowd is dumb. By definition."



I thought the bananas case was restrained to English football. I have not seen it in Spain, but you can be right. I would say that the bananas case is "a step further": it is deliberately racist and involves a preparation and deliberation that excludes "funny, spontaneous joking"

As said before, Real Madrid supporters insult Eto'o and Ronaldinho (Barcelona) for their race while Real Madrid has at least two black (or mixed) players: Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo and viceversa.

Two/three years ago, Barcelona supporters throwed a pig's head to the field because of Figo and Portuguese felt insulted. I do not feel that was an insult to Portuguese but just stupid sport hysteria.


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## Bienvenidos

I believe most of the incidents have been in Spain, with a few cases in Italy. 

*Bien*


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## Fernando

Sorry, but I think you are not right. Maybe I am a chauvinist, but I think that English media have not given a fair account.

The problem is that the "banana" case appeared in UK. There, with a large percentage of blck inmigrants, this is a major problem and they took measure. Here the racism goes against S Americans and Moors (Maghrebians). And dozens of S American players are playing in Spain with no major problems.

Said this, if bananas have moved here from England (where, I think, they have been expelled) they should be thrown to the sea (along with the throwers).


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## emma42

I used to live in Newcastle in the early 1980s. Newcastle is a BIG football town (the worship of "The Toon" - Newcastle United Football Club - has been likened to a "religion"). I stood on the terraces watching matches and heard and saw the most appalling racist comments being hurled at black players. And bananas being thrown. I remonstrated, but was just ignored. Newcastle was then a city with a tiny proportion of non-caucasian residents.

A couple of years ago I was back in Newcastle and in a pub, watching the match on TV. There, at the bar, was an Asian man, wearing a Newcastle football shirt and joining in with everyone. No one batted an eyelid. I was so thrilled that I have never forgotten that scene. I know that racism is alive and well in Newcastle still, but there has definitely been a change. I just say this to show that there is still hope.


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## AnotherStephen

In England racist chants at games are virtually a thing of the past. However this isn't really because everyone here has become nicer, rather it's that legislation has really cracked down hard on racism. 

The fact that every team has black players these days has helped.

The legislation hasn't helped players with ginger hair. They can still get unmerciful treatment. "Oy! Carrot-head!"


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## emma42

I don't go to football matches nowadays, so I wonder if anyone can tell me:  In areas where there is a relatively strong presence of such groups as the BNP (British National Party) or Vlams Blok (far right wing party in Belgium) etc, is there more or less racism at football matches?


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## scotu

If you eat the banana first, then throw the skin on the field it can be your way of saying "now, you have appeal"


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## AnotherStephen

Fernando said:
			
		

> I thought the bananas case was restrained to English football. I have not seen it in Spain, but you can be right. I would say that the bananas case is "a step further": it is deliberately racist and involves a preparation and deliberation that excludes "funny, spontaneous joking"



I can only recall one incident where bananas were thrown on the pitch in England. They were throwns at John Barnes when he played for Liverpool in the 80s. 

If an English manager called a player a "black shit," he would be thrown out of the sport. The manager of Spain who did just that, is still the manager of Spain.


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## maxiogee

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> If an English manager called a player a "black shit," he would be thrown out of the sport.



From watching the antics of the football fraternity in the UK, if he were the manager of a big team, I think he'd probably survive!


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## AnotherStephen

maxiogee said:
			
		

> From watching the antics of the football fraternity in the UK, if he were the manager of a big team, I think he'd probably survive!



I don't agree. Racism may still be there under the surface in English football, as everywhere in the world, but if a manager was caught expressing "black shit" he'd be out. It's the same in broadcasting. Look what happened to Ron Atkinson.

English football has had the "Let's kick racism out of football" campaign going for a number of years now. It's a noble venture. For a top football boss to keep his job after racist comments would no longer be regarded as acceptable. It would make a mockery of the efforts to "kick racism out."

Would you like to give details *maxiogee* of racist comments made in recent years that English managers or even players have made, and survived?


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## Fernando

Privately or in an interview or so?


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## AnotherStephen

Fernando said:
			
		

> Privately or in an interview or so?




Well if it was privately, we wouldn't know about it.


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## emma42

Has anyone got an answer to post #13?  Presumably not...


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## Fernando

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Well if it was privately, we wouldn't know about it.



The words by Luis Aragonés were said during a training, head to head, in the middle of the field.


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## moura

I don't see rascim within Portuguese football. Portuguese adore so much football, that they also adore each good player, no mather whether he is tall, short, white, black, yellow or red - at this time there is almost an histery about Mundial- and after, if things went bad, tears will be flooding all over.   
The same with football managers I think. I still hear people talk about Bobby Robson and Erikson. We aren't chauvinist in that point also. Probably we aren't chauvinist at any point at all  
The same doesn't apply to racism in other Portuguese/European fields. That would make another thread.


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## AnotherStephen

emma42 said:
			
		

> Has anyone got an answer to post #13?  Presumably not...



Anything beyond muttering a racist comment out of earshot of the authorities, can be dealt with in England by the law. I may be wrong but I don't think you get racist chanting in English football anymore.


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## Fernando

moura said:
			
		

> Probably we aren't chauvinist at any point at all



I love Portugal but I can not avoid a smile here.


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## AnotherStephen

Fernando said:
			
		

> The words by Luis Aragonés were said during a training, head to head, in the middle of the field.



Yes, but Aragonés must have known cameras and microphones were around.


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## Henryk

In the suburban I live in a known club named BFC Dynamo has its seat. Although they are playing in the fourth division they are pretty famous for their hooligans. The last time when I attended a match of them they played against a Turkish club (there are lots of in Berlin). The players of the opposite team, Turks in a big measure, were thrown with stones and spit on after the match. During the match the BFC fans were singing the whole time racist songs. But that's normal and seemingly nobody seems to be willing to change that. 

I can also remember a case in the fourth division in which a black player was insulted by some "fans" of the opposite team. In return, he was giving the Hitler salute for which he was accused of as it is forbidden by law in Germany. However, he was not sentenced.

Well, in Germany it only limits to the lower divisions. In German pro football there has never been such a case. It is worst in Spain when considering all Europe.


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## emma42

Oh, that is awful, Henryk.  That would no way be tolerated in England.  Honestly, the International football community is always complaining about English fans (with good reason sometimes), but other countries need to sort our their racism too, it would seem.  What you described is disgusting.


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## maxiogee

maxiogee said:
			
		

> From watching the antics of the football fraternity in the UK, if he were the manager of a big team, I think he'd probably survive!





			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> Would you like to give details *maxiogee* of racist comments made in recent years that English managers or even players have made, and survived?



My comment about his ability to survive had nothing to do with his potential comments, it was to do with his financial value to his chairman, and shareholders.
Football is no longer a sport, it is a rich industry generating huge profits, and anything which is likely to interfere with cash-flow would not be tolerated.
So, if a semi-successful manager or worse were to say something offensive he'd be out the door before he even knew it was open. If it were one of the high-revenue managers there'd be press briefings saying it was taken out of context, that the manager and the player mentioned have a wonderful relationship and the 'joke' had misfired, and the press would be 'pulled onside'.


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## AnotherStephen

maxiogee said:
			
		

> My comment about his ability to survive had nothing to do with his potential comments, it was to do with his financial value to his chairman, and shareholders.
> Football is no longer a sport, it is a rich industry generating huge profits, and anything which is likely to interfere with cash-flow would not be tolerated.
> So, if a semi-successful manager or worse were to say something offensive he'd be out the door before he even knew it was open. If it were one of the high-revenue managers there'd be press briefings saying it was taken out of context, that the manager and the player mentioned have a wonderful relationship and the 'joke' had misfired, and the press would be 'pulled onside'.



I really think you being too cynical here. Even if a club did try to hang on to a manager after he had made a racist comment, there would be great pressure from the English FA to get him to stand down. I had a look at the Let’s Kick Racism Out of Football campaign website. I see it _is supported and funded by the game’s governing bodies, including founding body the Professional Footballers Association (PFA), the FA Premier League, the Football Foundation and The Football Association.

_Let's say a manager of one of the big clubs said, "I don't like having niggers in my teams." You really think a manager in England could carry as manager after that?


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## maxiogee

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> [/I]Let's say a manager of one of the big clubs said, "I don't like having niggers in my teams." You really think a manager in England could carry as manager after that?



Don't be daft, do you really think a manager in England would ever be in a position to say that?


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## emma42

hi Anotherstephen.  It might be an idea to put a  sign if you are going to use words like that to make your point.  I am sure you meant no offence, but others may not even know what the N word means and may copy it unknowingly.


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## AnotherStephen

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Don't be daft, do you really think a manager in England would ever be in a position to say that?



I don't know what you mean by "in a position."

If someone has got the job of being a top club manager in England (in the position?) and he makes a racist comment, he's out.

If a top English football manager said "I don't like niggers," yes even if it was Chelsea or Man Utd, he'd be sacked.


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## Brioche

emma42 said:
			
		

> There, at the bar, was an Asian man, wearing a Newcastle football shirt and joining in with everyone.


 
My 2p's worth.
When British people say "Asian" they mean people from what was once British India - Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Indian or Bangladeshis.


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## maxiogee

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Don't be daft, do you really think a manager in England would ever be in a position to say that?





			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I don't know what you mean by "in a position."



Okay, I'll spell it out for you.
How many of the league teams *don't* have black players, or would be able to afford to *decline to sign* one of the many talented black players if one came "on the market"?


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## Krümelmonster

In have the feeling that hooliganism is far more spread in eastern Germany than in western Germany, isn't it?
I also live in a rural area and our small village has only an all-turkish team called VfB Vatan (no, I don't know what this word means...), while all other teams from the villages around are mostly German with some Greeks, Turkish, Italian... (quite according to the representation in the population), and there is no racism at all, nobody distinguishes between "our" team and the others and I really couldn't imagine them to shout at the players or discriminate against them.

Generally I think in Germany there is not much insulting of players, it is more that fans have fights after the games, but this has often nothing to do with ethnical backgrounds, it is just that some idiots like to link football with a "good fight" afterwards. But I think there is also a lot effort to stop violence in football here in Germany, and a manager or coach insulting players of another race would not have a chance to keep his job here.


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## AnotherStephen

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Don't be daft, do you really think a manager in England would ever be in a position to say that?





			
				AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> I don't know what you mean by "in a position."





			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll spell it out for you.
> How many of the league teams *don't* have black players, or would be able to afford to *decline to sign* one of the many talented black players if one came "on the market"?



A manager in England certainly wouldn't be in a _position_ after racist comments, he'd be on the dole, looking for one. 

Perhaps you don't realise how politically correct things are over here. Glenn Hoddle got sacked as England manager for one comment about the disabled.


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## Henryk

> In have the feeling that hooliganism is far more spread in eastern Germany than in western Germany, isn't it?


Nope, that's just a silly prejudice put out by the media which seemingly makes many people believe that. Of course, the standard of living isn't very high in some parts of Eastern Germany etc., but it's the same with NRW. There, in return, are the best known hooligans in Germany at all, which are also famous for being right-wing.



> But I think there is also a lot effort to stop violence in football here in Germany, and a manager or coach insulting players of another race would not have a chance to keep his job here.


He'd be torn by everyone. 

If Ballack (or someone else) gave the Nazi salute, as Paolo Di Canio did after having scored against AS Roma last year, his career would definitely be over. Di Canio, playing for Lazio Roma, just had to pay EUR 10,000 as punishment. Well, the irriducibili (a well-known racist fan group in Italy) have been adoring him more than ever since he did that.


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## lizzeymac

The BBC News (online) & BBC America TV have had a few stories in the past week about the increase in racism in football.  These stories have been picked up by The New York Times & Washington Post.  The coverage led me to believe there has been an accute increase in racist speech & acts of violence. All of the articles make a connection between the rise in racism & nationalism in football to recent acts of violence against immigrants in Belgium & Germany.  They said most of the incidents were in eastern Germany, Eastern Europe, Italy, and to a lesser degree, in Spain.  A photo of Italian fans in a stadium holding up swastika flags headed the article. I may be naive but that is a shock to see.

The BBC also posted an article about a German tourism group (headed by en ex-government official) that has published an advisory list of areas in Germany where non-white tourists would not be safe.

The BBC also contrasts these European incidents against the "UK "Football is for Everyone" campaign. (correct name?)
Is the media exagerating the difference between UK & European fans & attitudes?  Are they exagerating the whole issue?


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## AnotherStephen

Henryk said:
			
		

> If Ballack (or someone else) gave the Nazi salute, as Paolo Di Canio did after having scored against AS Roma last year, his career would definitely be over.



If Ballack did that for his new club Chelsea, would Chelsea ask the Queen to give him a medal *maxiogee*?


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## nokeeffe99

> A photo of Italian fans in a stadium holding up swastika flags headed the article. I may be naive but that is a shock to see.


 
I´ve just finished reading "Forza Italia", a book about Italian soccer by the Irish (Italian resident) football correspondent Paddy Agnew. Agnew feels that while 10 years ago soccer matches in Italy were generally safe and friendly, the actions of the extreme (and often racist) "ultras" has made it far less so. Furthermore, it seems that the Italian football authorities have no real will to stamp out nazi banners and racist taunting.


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## maxiogee

AnotherStephen said:
			
		

> A manager in England certainly wouldn't be in a _position_ after racist comments, he'd be on the dole, looking for one.
> 
> Perhaps you don't realise how politically correct things are over here. Glenn Hoddle got sacked as England manager for one comment about the disabled.



That was just the excuse they were looking for. 
Glenn Hoddle was sacked because he was a tosser, and because of Eileen Drewerey (sp?)!


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## AnotherStephen

maxiogee said:
			
		

> That was just the excuse they were looking for.
> Glenn Hoddle was sacked because he was a tosser, and because of Eileen Drewerey (sp?)!



Yes, you're right. Also he'd "lost" the dressing room.


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