# (Etiam ipsam) oblivionem / (cum vero) memini oblivionem [se pueden eliminar los?]



## ulfs

Hola a todos! Llevo tiempo visitando este foro, hoy por fin me he registrado! Quisiera saber si me podríais ayudar con estas dudas:

-¿Se podría utilizar de forma correcta estos fragmentos de San Agustín eliminando el principio?/ Could I use these texts removing the beginning?

Original: _Etiam ipsam oblivionem meminisse me certus sum, qua id, quod meminerimus, obruitur._
Propuesta/proposed: _(...) oblivionem meminisse me certus sum, qua id, quod meminerimus, obruitur._



Original: _cum vero memini oblivionem, et memoria praesto est et oblivio; memoria, qua meminerim; oblivio, qua non meminerim._
Propuesta/proposed: _(...) memini oblivionem, et memoria praesto est et oblivio; memoria, qua meminerim; oblivio, qua non meminerim._

Muchas gracias de antemano!

J.


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## wandle

May I ask what is the purpose of your enquiry? Why do you want to remove the beginnings of the sentences? 
Each sentence as it stands is complete and makes good sense.


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## ulfs

Hi Wandle, 

thanks for answering! I'm writing a piece for choir and these beginnings are not quite musical.


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## wandle

Are you intending to quote the words of Augustine, or to compose sentences of your own?


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## ulfs

I want to take the meaning of the words of Augustine.


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## wandle

This part can stand on its own as a sentence:

_*oblivionem meminisse me certus sum, qua id, quod meminerimus, obruitur*_. All it has lost is emphasis.

This part, however, does not work on its own:

*... memini oblivionem, et memoria praesto est et oblivio; memoria, qua meminerim; oblivio, qua non meminerim. *

It has lost the conjunction _*cum*_ which ties together the two clauses.

To make a valid sentence without the conjunction, we could write:

_*oblivionis memori et memoria praesto est et oblivio; memoria, qua meminerim; oblivio, qua non meminerim.*_

This has adapted the text, but retained the meaning. Of course, it is no longer a correct quotation from Augustine.


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## ulfs

Wow! Thank you very much! I can see you have a really good command of Latin... I'm so jealous!

Can I ask you a last question? Could I use this composition?:
-…oblivionem meminisse, qua id, (quod) meminerimus obruitur.

Thank you very much for your help!


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## wandle

_*oblivionem meminisse me certus sum, qua id, quod meminerimus, obruitur*_. 

This means: 'I am certain that I remember the forgetfulness by which that which I remember is buried'.

If we leave out the words *me certus sum*, then we have:
_*oblivionem meminisse, qua id, quod meminerimus, obruitur*_.

This means:'to remember the forgetfulness by which that which I remember is buried'.

If we leave out the conjunction *quod* (the pin holding sentence parts together), then we have:
_*oblivionem meminisse, qua id meminerimus, obruitur*_.

The result is that the structure has broken down and we just have loose phrases:
'to remember the forgetfulness' ... 'by which I remember that' ... 'is buried'.

If we leave out *id* instead of *quod*, then we have:
_*oblivionem meminisse, qua quod meminerimus obruitur*_.

This means: 'to remember the forgetfulness by which what I remember is buried'.


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