# Macedonian: сум-perfect



## cr00mz

I have some trouble with the сум perfect. How do you use it (is it usable?) when you have a object in mind.

сум дошол; имам дојдено; дојден сум

сум го видел; го имам видено; and finally виден го сум/ виден сум го. I suspect that the сум-perfect cannot be used like this.

Help would be appreciated!


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> сум го видел; го имам видено;



Those are perfectly correct.



cr00mz said:


> and finally виден го сум/ виден сум го. I suspect that the сум-perfect cannot be used like this.



_Дојден/дојдена/дојдено/дојдени_ and _виден/видена/видено/видени_ (not to be confused with _виден/видна/видно/видни_) are adjectives.

Bear in mind that in _имам дојдено_, _дојдено_ is not actually an adjective; it's a special, invariant verbal form.



cr00mz said:


> дојден сум



You just need to use the other persons: _дојден/виден сум/си/е/сме/сте/се_.

Have I maybe not understood your question properly?


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## cr00mz

iobyo said:


> Have I maybe not understood your question properly?



Thanks for reply I'm not sure, maybe. Is this word order correct *виден го сум/ виден сум го* I cannot find anything about this on google. Also what if you need the dative pronouns.  

You have

сум му го дал / му го имам дадено / what about for сум-perfect (му го сум даден / даден му го сум) I don't know if these are possible, perhaps this сум-perfekt has restriction,. because these last 2 sounds very weird to me.

Also, if го видел is the same as го имал видено how does the сум-perfect handel non-witnessed things.


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## cr00mz

Also, for the regular and има-perfects you can say

ќе сум дошол , ќе имам дојдено. How do you work in ќе in a сум-perfect sentence?


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## cr00mz

Another question, the phrase 

toj e umren, I use it as "he is dead", but this is not the literal meaning right? Because I looked it up, and dead is mrtov. Is this a sum perfect?

It follows the rule of sum perfect but the meaning is not about the past.


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> Thanks for reply I'm not sure, maybe. Is this word order correct *виден го сум/ виден сум го* I cannot find anything about this on google.



The _има_-constructions always use the neuter form: _го имам/имаш/има/имаме/имате/имаат виден*о*_.

The placement of the short pronoun is fairly strict. In this case only _*го* имам видено_ works, and never *_имам __*го* видено_ or *_имам __видено __*го*_.



cr00mz said:


> Also what if you need the dative pronouns. You have
> 
> сум му го дал / му го имам дадено /.



Both of these are correct.

If you mean the full dative pronouns (which would be used for emphasis), then you could either say



_*нему* сум му го дал _or_ сум му го дал *нему*_; 
_*нему* му го имам дадено_ or _му го имам дадено *нему*_. 



cr00mz said:


> Also, if го видел is the same as го имал видено how does the сум-perfect handel non-witnessed things.



I'm not very good at explaining these things, so I'll just translate them:



_го видел_ ('he [apparently] saw him/it'); 
_го имал видено_ = ('he had [apparently] seen him/it'). 

Though the whole non-witnessed thing is not as extreme as having to translate every instance with "apparently".



cr00mz said:


> How do you work in ќе in a сум-perfect sentence?



You would always place it at the beginning. That being said, whether or not you should use such a construction in various contexts is an entirely different discussion! 



cr00mz said:


> Another question, the phrase
> 
> toj e umren, I use it as "he is dead", but this is not the literal  meaning right? Because I looked it up, and dead is mrtov. Is this a sum  perfect?
> 
> It follows the rule of sum perfect but the meaning is not about the past.



Both are adjectives and mean the same thing. There is only a slight nuance because _умрен _is ultimately a deverbal (from-a-verb) adjective:



_тој е умрен _('he was dying and is now dead'); 
_тој е мртов _('he is dead, lifeless'). 

But the difference in meaning is nowhere near as great as it is in my English translations. Think of it like "deceased" and "dead".


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## cr00mz

Hello again, sorry for the late reply.

Thanks for the explanations iobyo.

Another question, if you say бев јаден that is the same as "I had eaten", yes? Can it also mean "I was eaten" (as in someone or something ate me up, a Lion or Crocodile for example.)


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> Hello again, sorry for the late reply.
> 
> Thanks for the explanations iobyo.
> 
> Another question, if you say бев јаден that is the same as "I had eaten", yes? Can it also mean "I was eaten" (as in someone or something ate me up, a Lion or Crocodile for example.)



_Јаде → јаден_ and _спие → спиен/спан_, and probably a few others, are curious examples in that they don't behave quite like other verbs and their derivatives.

We have:

_Јаден ли си?_ ('Have you eaten?' ~ 'have you had anything to eat [today]?');
_Спиен/спан ли си?_ ('Have you slept?' ~ 'have you had any sleep?');
_Уште не сум јаден_ ('I haven't eaten yet' ~ 'I haven't had anything to eat yet');
_Уште не сум спиен/спан_ ('I haven't slept yet' ~ 'I haven't had any sleep');
_Ми дадоа две порции зашто не бев јаден од вчера_ ('They gave me two servings because I hadn't eaten since yesterday');
_Два дена не бев спиен/спан_ ('I hadn't slept for two days').​
"Eaten [up]" is _изеден _from the perfective _изеде_. 

Be careful not to mix up _јаден/јадена/јадено/јадени _with _јаден/јадна/јадно/јадни _(= _кутар_; _о, јаден јас!_, 'oh, poor me!').


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## cr00mz

What about 

Izeden li si go toa? "Have you eaten that (up)?" Is this possible too then? 

Also about this (perhaps a little off topic)

го видел
го имал видено

I read somewhere, but I cannot seem to find it, will look more. But because of the macedonian IMA perfect, you have

ima videno and
imal videno 

to distinguish from verified and unverified (Or reported)

Perhaps I understood it wrong, I will see if I can find it.


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