# Ci (there)



## GaryD

Confusion time again  - I was listening to my CDs in the car today and with the space of about 10 mins the speaker had used lì, là and ci to say 'there'. I tried them in the on-line dictionary and read the previous thread on lì and là and I think I get that but the dictionary doesn't give a use of ci for there - although my paper dictionary does - could someone please explain the difference (and why do you need so many words to say the same thing, you only confuse us poor foreigners) 
GaryD


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## TimLA

GaryD said:
			
		

> Confusion time again  - I was listening to my CDs in the car today and with the space of about 10 mins the speaker had used lì, là and ci to say 'there'. I tried them in the on-line dictionary and read the previous thread on lì and là and I think I get that but the dictionary doesn't give a use of ci for there - although my paper dictionary does - could someone please explain the difference (and why do you need so many words to say the same thing, you only confuse us poor foreigners)
> GaryD


 
I have the same problem - here's a thread I started some time ago that will be able to confuse you still further...

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=107393


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## GaryD

TimLA said:
			
		

> I have the same problem - here's a thread I started some time ago that will be able to confuse you still further...


Blast I must have just missed that thread - however, thanks for adding to my confusion . On the upside, I now appear to have found someone who admits that 



			
				TimLA said:
			
		

> I understand and use its reflexive mode (ci vediamo dopo), it's use as "there" (c'era una volta, ci vado), it's "us/we" use (Portaci a Roma) and even idiomatic uses (ci vuole, ci corre)


 so can you explain when to use lì and là and when to use ci?
GaryD


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## TimLA

GaryD said:
			
		

> Blast I must have just missed that thread - however, thanks for adding to my confusion . On the upside, I now appear to have found someone who admits that
> 
> so can you explain when to use lì and là and when to use ci?
> GaryD


 
I only do very well saying "Ciao" and "Grazie", but I'll give you an English speaker's perspective on li, la and ci (I have a love-hate relationship with that word!)

Li and la are fairly straight forward -- there are equivalent to "there" in English and are used when talking about a specific place. I've heard some Italians use Li and some La, and the use is most likely personal, and poetic. Here's a classic conversation:

Dov'e' il Vaticano? (Where is the Vatican)
Di la! (over there, pointing in a general direction)

E' il Vaticano li o la? (Is the vatican over there or over there - pointing in two different directions - much more poetic than "li o li" - also use qui and qua the same)

So that's not too bad - now Ci  

Ci means us
Portaci ar Hotel San Carlo! (Porta (take) US to the Hotel San Carlo - the ar is really an al, but is a Roman accent  ) This is pretty easy, just tack it on to the end of a verb that makes sense and you'll probably be OK.

Ci is used in the reflexive.
Ci vediamo dopo (We will see each other later). It is used in first person plural relexive verbs -- not used in English, but reasonably understandable. See also mi, ti, si, vi etc.

Ci is used as "there", not li or la, not a place, but "existence".
C'era una volta - (Ci era una volta) There was a time (once upon a time)
C'e' - (Ci e') There is
Ci vado - I am going there

Ci is also used for no reason whatsoever:
Dimmi che ci tieni a me (famous Giorga song, I'm told the Ci is there for poetic/rhythmic reasons and means nothing.)

The way I think about Ci  is 1 - If I immediately understand it (reflexive, place, us), so be it, no complaints. 2 - If I don't understand it, it probably is a very atypical reflexive, or I'm just screwed.

Hope this helps -- Please, natives please help us!!!
tim


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## TrentinaNE

TimLA said:
			
		

> Ci is used as "there", not li or la, not a place, but "existence".
> C'era una volta - (Ci era una volta) There was a time (once upon a time)
> C'e' - (Ci e') There is
> Ci vado - I am going there


But it is sometimes used to mean "there" as a place, I think. On the Pimsleur CDs, I recall an example like this:

_Carlo va a Roma domani. Ci resta due settimane._

which i would translate into English as_ Carlo is going to Rome tomorrow. He will stay there for two weeks._

But I imagine one could also say the second sentence as _Resta lì due settimane._ Is it a simply a matter of style/taste?

Elisabetta


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## GaryD

TimLA said:
			
		

> Ci means us
> Portaci ar Hotel San Carlo! (Porta (take) US to the Hotel San Carlo - the ar is really an al, but is a Roman accent  ) This is pretty easy, just tack it on to the end of a verb that makes sense and you'll probably be OK.
> 
> Ci is used in the reflexive.
> Ci vediamo dopo (We will see each other later). It is used in first person plural relexive verbs -- not used in English, but reasonably understandable. See also mi, ti, si, vi etc.
> 
> Ci is used as "there", not li or la, not a place, but "existence".
> C'era una volta - (Ci era una volta) There was a time (once upon a time)
> C'e' - (Ci e') There is
> Ci vado - I am going there
> 
> Ci is also used for no reason whatsoever:
> Dimmi che ci tieni a me (famous Giorga song, I'm told the Ci is there for poetic/rhythmic reasons and means nothing.)
> 
> The way I think about Ci  is 1 - If I immediately understand it (reflexive, place, us), so be it, no complaints. 2 - If I don't understand it, it probably is a very atypical reflexive, or I'm just screwed.
> 
> Hope this helps -- Please, natives please help us!!!
> tim


Tim, I was happy with points 1 & 2, but thanks for confirming (or at least agreeing with) my understanding, I got point 4 after reading the previous post you linked to and I thought the first 3 lines of point 3 explained the bit I was having real difficulty with until I a) read the final line b) checked back with the CD and c) I read Elisabetta's post (why didn't I just stop at 'C'e' - (Ci e') There is'  I can only hope that a native will help us out soon - or perhaps no one knows (do you think the challenge to National pride is a bit too subtle )
GaryD


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## TimLA

GaryD said:
			
		

> Tim, I was happy with points 1 & 2, but thanks for confirming (or at least agreeing with) my understanding, I got point 4 after reading the previous post you linked to and I thought the first 3 lines of point 3 explained the bit I was having real difficulty with until I a) read the final line b) checked back with the CD and c) I read Elisabetta's post (why didn't I just stop at 'C'e' - (Ci e') There is'  I can only hope that a native will help us out soon - or perhaps no one knows (do you think the challenge to National pride is a bit too subtle )
> GaryD


 
You're right, I should parse that out in future explanations. With "ci vado" the "ci" means "there". Most likely you could say:

Ci vado domani.
Vado li domani.

tim


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## GaryD

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> But it is sometimes used to mean "there" as a place, I think. On the Pimsleur CDs, I recall an example like this:
> 
> _Carlo va a Roma domani. Ci resta due settimane._
> 
> which i would translate into English as_ Carlo is going to Rome tomorrow. He will stay there for two weeks._
> 
> But I imagine one could also say the second sentence as _Resta lì due settimane._ Is it a simply a matter of style/taste?
> 
> Elisabetta


Actually now I check one of my reference books there is a fourth category of usage into which this may fall - that is described as 'ci instead of phrases introduced by a' and gives the example 'penso al mio lavoro, ci penso molto' ie the ci is a substitute for al mio lavoro. In your example it may be a substitute for 'a Roma' which in this case just happens in BE/AE to correspond to 'there'. Did I just make it even less clear - how is that possible 
GaryD


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## TrentinaNE

GaryD said:
			
		

> Did I just make it even less clear - how is that possible


No, that makes some sense, though it's a subtle distinction.

I've sent out an SOS by e-mail. Here's hoping the Italian language rescue team arrives soon!

Elisabetta


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## moodywop

I think that Tim and Elisabetta have already covered most uses of "ci". Just a few footnotes:

1."ci" can be reflexive (ci divertiamo = we enjoy ourselves) or reciprocal (ci conosciamo = we know each other)

2."ci" can mean both "here" and "there" - (on the phone)A: "C'è Carlo?" ("is Carlo there?") B: "Sì, c'è"(Yes, he's here")

- Vieni qui spesso? - Ci vengo ogni sabato

3. Basically we use "ci" instead of "lì/là" when you've already mentioned the place where you're supposed to be/go etc:

- Vai alla partita?
- No, non ci vado. Devo lavorare

When you're pointing in a direction you can of course only use "lì/là"

This is not exhaustive but I'm afraid it's time for bed over here


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## TrentinaNE

Grazie, Carlo -- molto informativo, come sempre. Buona notte, sogni dolci!  

Elisabetta


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## Gemelle

Ho visto il film "Manuale D'Amore" l'altra sera, e una ragazza nel film (Giulia) ha chiesto a Tommaso:

"Tu che ci fai qui?"

Questo uso di "ci" non e' corretto, vero?

It's enough to say "Che fai qui?"  

To me, ci and qui are both referring to the same thing ("HERE") in this context, right?

Ciao,
Gemelle.


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## moodywop

Gemelle said:
			
		

> Ho visto il film "Manuale D'Amore" l'altra sera, e una ragazza nel film (Giulia) ha chiesto a Tommaso:
> 
> "Tu che ci fai qui?"
> 
> Questo uso di "ci" non e' corretto, vero?
> 
> It's enough to say "Che fai qui?"
> 
> To me, ci and qui are both referring to the same thing ("HERE") in this context, right?


 
Gemelle

I'm going to stir up a bit of controversy here .

First of all let me make it clear(before everybody goes for my jugular ) that as a foreign learner it is safer for you to avoid these forms, which are only used in *informal speech* and considered incorrect even in relaxed conversation by *some *Italians. Of course an *advanced* learner *living in Italy* and mixing daily with Italians can, in my opinion, choose freely whether to use the "correct" form or the colloquial one *in conversation.*

Now that I've issued this caveat in order to preempt charges of exposing poor innocent learners to corrupt usage I can finally get something off my chest(let's call it my WR coming out of the language closet ).

Even though I am a schoolteacher I use "ci" as a rafforzativo (and other forms that are regularly stigmatized in this forum) *every day *in conversation with friends *without any qualms.* A form that I wouldn't use in writing or while speaking to my pupils is on the other hand perfectly appropriate and - in my view - acceptable in relaxed conversation. The funny thing is that some forer@s I discussed this issue with in PMs told me that while they themselves use these colloquial forms daily they would never admit it in a post as they fear the criticism of fellow Italians. Having made the first move I'd appreciate if these forer@s came out of the PM closet as I don't believe in "outing" people .

Coming to your example, the addition of "ci" has emphatic value and suggests you are surprised to see your friend there.

As for "ci" with "avere", you will find a balanced discussion here

Even a strict grammarian like Luca Serianni acknowledges the widespread use of "ci" with "avere" in *colloquial *contexts without stigmatizing it. He only poses the problem of how to represent this spoken form in writing:

*Ci con il verbo avere*

*Per rispondere ad alcuni lettori che ci domandano chiarimenti riguardo all'uso del ci prima delle forme del verbo avere, riportiamo quello che Luca Serianni ha scritto in proposito ne **La Crusca per voi** (n° 14):*
«Col verbo _avere _si è sempre più diffusa nell'italiano parlato di ogni regione l'inclusione dell'elemento _ci_, dando quasi luogo a un paradigma diverso: non _ho_, _hai_, _ha_, ma _ciò_, _ciai_, _cià_. Quando forme del genere, *tipiche dell'oralità*, devono ricevere rappresentazione scritta sorgono problemi. Naturalmente non è possibile adottare scrizioni come *_c'ho_... D'altra parte anche la grafia _ci ho_, _ci hai_ - che è quella a cui ricorse un grande scrittore sensibile alla rappresentazione del parlato, il Verga - non è soddisfacente, perché suggerisce una pronuncia della vocale _che in realtà non esiste.»_
_http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php?id=4094&ctg_id=44_

I'll just add that nobody would use the forms _ciò_, _ciai_, _cià _in writing. Most Italians would be puzzled by them.

The opinion of an old, respected _italianista_, Professor Giulio Lepschy:

_"Ci _is frequently used with _avere _at a colloquial level...and often indicates greater involvement of the subject: _hai un bel paio di scarpe _'you've got a nice pair of shoes' vs _ci hai un bel paio di scarpe _'that's a nice pair of shoes you've got'. The spelling may be _ci hai _or _c'hai"_
_(The Italian Language Today, *1977*)_

As you can see, Lepschy accepts the spelling that Serianni rejects.

I also believe that there is no point is sheltering advanced learners from widely used forms such as these since, with the wide availability of Italian-language television and radio programmes, DVDs etc they are going to encounter them anyway.


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## mateintwo

To me as a student of Italian, ci is the hardest word to master in the Italian language. And it amazes me that in Italian you have one word having so many meanings while Italian is famous for having numerous words to express other words. 
 
Ci can mean: us, to us, ourselves, each other, here, there + impersonal reflexive verbs and is used in numerous idiomatic and even pleonastic expressions. Ci also can mean he/she/it (a cio’ or con questa/quella persona/cosa) when referring back to the object in an earlier sentence. Enough to make my head spin! 
 
My question is. Does anyone know how the usage of ci developed and turned into having so many meanings?


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## Alberto77

Here you can find a part of what you asked for:
http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua05/ianua05_03.pdf#search=" origine pronome ci"
it's not that much but hope it helps a bit
ciao
alb

EDIT I found also this: http://www.locuta.com/comb.htm
you can find exercises, too


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## Alberto77

For ci=here,there, I found that it comes from hicce, spoken form of latin hic
ciao
alb


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## Alxmrphi

I TOTALLY agree!!

"Ci" is definitely the hardest Italian word I have ever tried to understand, I still don't, when I read it I have to pause, and look around the other sentences and try to eliminate what it means so I can get closer to what it does actually mean.


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## mateintwo

Alex_Murphy said:


> I TOTALLY agree!!
> 
> "Ci" is definitely the hardest Italian word I have ever tried to understand, I still don't, when I read it I have to pause, and look around the other sentences and try to eliminate what it means so I can get closer to what it does actually mean.


 
Yes I have to go through the same thought process but when watching a movie or when you are spoken to, the brain does not have enough time to solve the "ci puzzle". I just hope with time as you hear and learn more phrases it will beome easier.


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## Alxmrphi

That is what I am hoping, if I heard it in conversation and it was something else than "Ci sentiamo / Arrivederci" .. my brain would hit the "shutdown" button while I worked it out, and thus miss the rest of the conversation.


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## kanojo_

mateintwo said:


> Yes I have to go through the same thought process but when watching a movie or when you are spoken to, the brain does not have enough time to solve the "ci puzzle". I just hope with time as you hear and learn more phrases it will beome easier.


With lots and lots of practise(esp. reading but also listening although is harder) everything becomes an automatism. Once the brain gets familiar with the ci usages you won't have to think about it anymore because you'll find out about the CI meaning immediately and from the context. 
I have never found the CI word difficult but that's because I grew up speaking Italian and to be honest, I have no idea what all the CI functions are. When I use it I do it because it sounds natural and when I hear it I just know what the whole phrase with CI means.


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## luke_77

I'll provide you with an example trying to make you understand the way to use it: Io vado a Milano = Io vado lì = Ci vado anch'io. So "ci should substitute or make the noun implicit. In a certain way ci should mean exactly lì, I mean Lì vado anch'io = Ci vado anch'io... ...think you should approach it this way, but as always, you better learn it by heart, then it will come yourself easier.

Another exercise: "Me: Io vado a Milano, You: a milano vado anch'io" or "Me: Io vado a Milano, You: ci vado anch'io"..

Luke


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## Alxmrphi

I'm familiar with that use, yes I think it's the idiomatic sentences that throw me off, because I am always trying to work out what it means.


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## luke_77

Alex_Murphy said:


> I'm familiar with that use, yes I think it's the idiomatic sentences that throw me off, because I am always trying to work out what it means.


 
What a mess guy! I wound't like to be in your shoes at all! For sure I understand Italian to be one of the most difficult languages, anyway, you're on the right way!  

Up English!  
Luke


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## swinginscot

I thought I was getting to grips with the uses of ci and the concept of substituting a word or phrase introduced by the preposition "su" seemed simple enough but it doesn't seem clear in this example:

"Mi ha detto che mi abrebbe aiutato a trovare un lavoro, ma io non ci conto. (ci = su di lui)

 ... I just don't understand where "su" is in the above sentence?  I'm  not sure of the meaning of the second part of the sentence so that might be why I'm having trouble.  Is this correct?:

He told me that he would have helped me to find a job, but ....... (I can only assume it means I can't sound ON him, which is probably where the su comes from, but I'm not sure.  

Also, how would you say:
I can't count on it
I can't count on him/her
I woudn't count on it

Grazie mille


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## vikgigio

Contare su qualcuno/qualcosa  =  rely/count on someone/something
"Mi ha detto che mi a*v*rebbe aiutato a trovare un lavoro, ma io non ci conto"
ovvero (letteralmente): ...ma io non conto su questa cosa (non faccio affidamento su questa cosa/non mi fido della sua promessa)
Quindi in questo caso _ci_ sostituisce perfettamente 'su questa cosa'.
Spero di essere stato chiaro
Ciao!


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## Hockey13

swinginscot said:


> "Mi ha detto che mi avrebbe aiutato a trovare un lavoro, ma io non ci conto. (ci = su di lui)
> 
> He told me that he would have helped me find a job, but I don't count on him.
> 
> Non conto su di lui.
> 
> Also, how would you say:
> I can't count on it ...Non posso contare su qualcosa.
> I can't count on him/her ...Non posso contare su di lui/lei.
> I wouldn't count on it ...Non conterei su quello/questo. (??)
> 
> Grazie mille


 
Ciao, swinginscot. Here are my best answers to your questions. I believe the "su di qualcosa" construction is unusual for Italian since you usually don't have two prepositions after one another, but this is an idiomatic phrase that is apparently used with people, whereas "su qualcosa" appears to be used with things. Ci encapsulates exactly what you said it encapsulates...I believe.


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## swinginscot

Hockey13 said:


> Ciao, swinginscot. Here are my best answers to your questions. I believe the "su di qualcosa" construction is unusual for Italian since you usually don't have two prepositions after one another, but this is an idiomatic phrase that is apparently used with people, whereas "su qualcosa" appears to be used with things. Ci encapsulates exactly what you said it encapsulates...I believe.


 

Tante grazie per tutte le riposte.  E' chiaro adesso.

To say "I can't count on it (if the thing I can't count on has already been mentioned and I'm using a pronoun), could I also say: 
non posso contarlo.


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## kdl77

swinginscot said:


> Tante grazie per tutte le riposte. E' chiaro adesso.
> 
> To say "I can't count on it (if the thing I can't count on has already been mentioned and I'm using a pronoun), could I also say:
> non posso contarloci.


 
"Ci" is a very difficoult word for non-natives...


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## swinginscot

It sure is.  I certainly understand it a lot better than I did a few weeks ago but I still have trouble with it.  I just get to the point where I think I've got it down and then I see it used in some other context and I'm confused all over again hehe.  Ah well, all part of the process I guess 

Grazie per l'aiuto.


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## vikgigio

swinginscot said:


> Tante grazie per tutte le riposte.  E' chiaro adesso.
> 
> To say "I can't count on it (if the thing I can't count on has already been mentioned and I'm using a pronoun), could I also say:
> non posso contarlo.



Watch out!
_Non posso contarlo_ means _I can't count it_ (you might be referring to an uncountable noun, perhaps)
_Non posso contarci_ is what you were looking for, i.e. what corresponds to the English phrase "I can't count on it"
Is it clearer now? Don't be afraid to ask


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## Hockey13

swinginscot said:


> Tante grazie per tutte le riposte. E' chiaro adesso.
> 
> To say "I can't count on it (if the thing I can't count on has already been mentioned and I'm using a pronoun), could I also say:
> non posso contarci.


 
As our friend kdl77 said, it's a bit difficult. Let me try to explain it for you:

Non posso contare su qualcosa.

Here, the thing you have to morph if you want a pronoun is _su qualcosa_. Under no circumstances does that ever turn into la. Even though you might be a few sentences on, you are still saying "contare su qualcosa," and you must therefore take with you that little package that has _su qualcosa_...otherwise you're just saying:

Non posso contare qualcosa.

Try to think of it like this. In English we say:

I can't count on something.

We can't ever take the _on something_ and turn it into a pronoun, but in Italian you have to. If you just used the _la_ to refer to _on something_, it would be akin to saying:

I can't count something.

I hope this helps.


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## swinginscot

Grazie mille di nuovo ... e piu' chiaro adesso.


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## vikgigio

swinginscot said:


> Grazie mille di nuovo ... e piu' chiaro adesso.



Prego


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## Hockey13

swinginscot said:


> Grazie mille di nuovo ... e piu' chiaro adesso.


 
Di niente!


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## Never Got a Dinner

I've never seen a list of the important "ci" idioms, all in one place.

For instance:

*vederci* Ci vedo = I can see.
*esserci *Non c'entra = It's irrelevant.
*pensarci* Ci penso io. = I'll worry about it (e.g., the check at a restaurant).

Is this next one correct?

*servirci*  Ci serve un po' di denaro. = A little money is needed.

I'm sure there are many more.


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## beauxyeux

*Ci* in Italian can have two main meanings:
1) us, object pronoun referred to subject "we"
2) there, adverb of place

Perhaps what is difficult for non native is the use of reflexive verbs
Most reflexive verbs in Italian are not reflexive in English; some examples:

*Ci si vede*: see you
*Andarci*: go there
*Calmarci: *riflessivo: Dobbiamo calmarci = We have to calm down
(Like the last one many other verbs which are not reflexive in English *Sederci: *E' necessario che ci sediamo? : Do we have to sit down?

But there are also other expressions which can also be kind of idiomatic constructions:

*E' meglio dormirci su*: It's better to sleep on it (Is this good English?)
Which I think is what I'm going to do now...


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## cscarfo

beauxyeux said:


> *Ci* in Italian can have two main meanings:
> 1) us, object pronoun referred to subject "we"
> 2) there, adverb of place
> 
> Perhaps what is difficult for non native is the use of reflexive verbs
> Most reflexive verbs in Italian are not reflexive in English; some examples:
> 
> *Ci si vede*: see you
> *Andarci*: go there
> *Calmarci: *riflessivo: Dobbiamo calmarci = We have to calm down
> (Like the last one many other verbs which are not reflexive in English *Sederci: *E' necessario che ci sediamo? : Do we have to sit down?
> 
> But there are also other expressions which can also be kind of idiomatic constructions:
> 
> *E' meglio dormirci su*: It's better to sleep on it (Is this good English?)
> Which I think is what I'm going to do now...


 
Ci si vede. Attenzione! E' un toscanismo che causa confusione tremendagià solo agli Italiani! Inoltre "Ci si vede" = C'è visibilità.
Ciao.


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## vikgigio

Never Got a Dinner said:


> I've never seen a list of the important "ci" idioms, all in one place.
> 
> For instance:
> 
> *vederci* Ci vedo = I can see.
> *esserci *Non c'entra = It's irrelevant. (This is entrarci, non esserci)
> *pensarci* Ci penso io. = I'll worry about it (e.g., the check at a restaurant).
> 
> Is this next one correct?
> 
> *servir**ci* Ci serve un po' di denaro. = A little money is needed.
> This is wrong. The verb is 'servire' followed by a simple dative. In this case: serve a noi (ci serve)
> 
> I'm sure there are many more.


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## Nashledanou

"Ci" is extremely difficult to explain to an English speaker. In itself, it does not mean much (except when it means "us": dac*ci* tempo, give us time). French ("y"), Dutch ("er") and German ("da") have more or less the same concept; English doesn't. So every time in Italian you'd say "ci", in English it's a different story. 

For example: 

c'è tempo = there is time. In this case "ci" is perfectly rendered with "there". But "there", in English, does not only refer to a spatial position; think of the meaning of "there" in adverbs like "thereby", "thereof", "thereafter" and the like: they all address a concept rather than a physical place. 

ci sono = I'm here, I'm on it, I'm with you. "Ci" is a logical as well as a logistical position. It refers to a place in space, but also to an unexpressed, implied concept. 

It can appear to be redundant: "là c'è una casa" can be translated simply with "there's a house", but you can say "there's a house (over there)" as well. It would even be a better translation, actually. 

"Ci tengo a te" is also a bit redundant. "Tengo a te" is (very) theoretically enough. But hardly anyone would ever say that, as it sounds a bit uncaring, not to say odd. That's probably why I felt like translating "ci tengo a te" with "I do care about you": because "do" is the only means of emphasizing the meaning in ENG in more or less the same fashion as "ci" does in IT. 

Finally, "ci" can be an integrating part of the verb in the same way as "out" is a part of "to put out". For example, "rimanere" means "to stay, to remain", but "rimanerci" is a kind of phrasal verb that means "to die" as a consequence of something (="to stay there and not move anymore"). "Fare" is to do; "farci", to act as (to "do" there, in that place, as someone: "ci sei o ci fai"?). "Stare" is "to stay"; "starci", "to fit in", "to be game", "to go for it". And so on. 

Why can you not say "voglio che ci rimaniamo amici"? Because the logical position is already given by "amici". 

"Voglio che rimaniamo..." calls for an interrogation: rimaniamo cosa? rimaniamo dove? In this case the answer is to "cosa": rimaniamo amici. But you could also say "voglio che rimaniamo in Italia", or "voglio che ci rimaniamo" (the latter's what a suicide bomber would say to a colleague, probably). You can't say "voglio che ci rimaniamo in Italia", unless you want to emphasize the concept - in which case you definitely need a comma: "voglio rimanerci, in Italia" = "what I want is to _stay_ in Italy" (and not, for example, go away). 

This must be awfully confusing.


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## Alxmrphi

> ci sono = I'm here, I'm on it, I'm with you. "Ci" is a logical as well as a logistical position. It refers to a place in space, but also to an unexpressed, implied concept.



Don't forget "there are" !


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## malva7

Please forgive the comment of an engineer, NOT a linguist:

When _understanding_ and italian phrase with *ci*, try to ignore it! In 90% of the cases you'll get the proper meaning anyway.
When _communicating_ try to avoid its use. You'll very hardly get it correct.

As Kanojo_ said you can only get to it with lots of practice; probably more talking to italians than reading, being it of more common use in spoken Italian.
You'll master its use by memorizing the whole phrase in which *ci *has been *properly* used and not by calculating and programming its adoption from a mathematical rule.

_Arriveder*ci*..._


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## Quique07

Before I go ahead and ask my question, I'm aware that what am about to ask is a extremely general question and also confusing but I'm so confuse.

I am confuse about the word "Ci", I've seen it in so many diffrent context that I've no idea what it means...

1) _se tu non* ci* sei più_, this is from a laura pausini song... I understand that the overall meaning is like You are not here anymore..., but what is the ci in this context, cause i understand also that ci means us/we...

2) _*ci* sono _, this is where am confuse the most, cause i know it means like there are, but again why is there a "ci" in the sentence...

3) _Avete rinunciato al viaggio? Si, *ci* abbiamo rinunciato, _In this example i have no idea what ci means... or what is the use of it...

Thanks in advance!


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## Ellena

This thread has been immensly helpful.  I am in the early stages of learning Italian and "ci" and "ne" are currently my most frustrating puzzles to solve.

Today I received an email with the phrase "ci devo pensare".  The context is that he is considering making an expensive purchase.  So, I assume the translation in this case would be "I'll have to think about it".  Is my assumption correct and has anyone else seen this enigmatic little word used this way?

Ellena


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## giovannino

Ellena said:


> Today I received an email with the phrase "ci devo pensare". The context is that he is considering making an expensive purchase. So, I assume the translation in this case would be "I'll have to think about it". Is my assumption correct and has anyone else seen this enigmatic little word used this way?


 

Yes, your translation is perfect.  You can say "ci devo pensare" or "devo pensarci".


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## Starbuck

giovannino said:


> Yes, your translation is perfect. You can say "ci devo pensare" or "devo pensarci".


 
Ciao a tutti,

The discussion of "ci" has been extremely enlightening, given that it is such a difficult term/concept to master. Apart from its use pronominally, reflexively, and existentially (_c'e' _un banco dietro angolo.), all of which seem very straightforward to me, it's the use of "ci" in statements such as "Ci devo pensare" that makes us non-natives a little pazzo. 

Much like the partitive "ne," if I take a long deep breath and just relax , I remember a former Spanish teacher who, when teaching the subjunctive, used to look at students and say, "You can't really _learn_ every instance when the subjunctive is required; you just have to _feel _it."

I think the same is true for "ci" when it is used in statements like "Ci devo pensare" -- "I have to think _about it._"

For me, the use of "ci" in "Ci devo pensare"--in the grand scheme of things Italian--would perhaps be better translated into English as "I have to think _about everything that I've just been talking to you about for the last 20 minutes and how expensive the car really is and about the fact that I can't really afford the darn thing but that I really really want it more than anything else in the entire world and that ultimately it's just SO much easier to use "ci" instead of saying everything that I just said."_

Starbuck


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## turkjey5

Ciao,
Nella frase:
Michele, lui non ci parlava affatto con gli sfollati perché, come ci disse, non voleva farsi cattivo sangue.
- di un libro di testo

Il "ci" di "ci parlava" significa "con loro"? Se questo è il caso, è comune scrivere la particella prima del sostantivo (gli sfollati)?
Grazie!


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## Necsus

Ciao, Turkjey. Direi che è una domanda da Solo Italiano... Comunque sì, si riferisce a _loro_, gli sfollati, ed è una costruzione molto comune nella lingua parlata. Come l'espressione parlar_ci_ (con qualcuno), che è meglio evitare in un uso controllato dell'italiano.


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