# Pan-Slavism



## Anatoli

Unfortunately, there are more fights than unity between Slavs. Pity we don't have any more attempts to have Pan-Slavic literature. Chinese dialects differ more from each other than Slavic languages. Even *some* Germanic and Roman languages differ more from each other than the most different Slavic languages but at the moment people are highlighting differences rather than similarities like Ukrainian vs Russian or Croatian vs Serbian.


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## Jana337

I beg to differ. Any mention of Pan-Slavic whatever sends shudders down my spine.

There are attempts (quite often by people who have lived abroad for a long time) to craft a kind of unity and  to create a Pan-Slavic language but I think they are pretty lame and totally out of step with what permanent residents of Slavic countries feel and think.

Links:
Slovio
Our thread about Slovio
Slovianski

A very interesting topic, though. What do the others think? Am I the only one who rather unenthusiastic?

Jana


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## Etcetera

Jana337 said:
			
		

> A very interesting topic, though. What do the others think? Am I the only one who rather unenthusiastic?
> 
> Jana


No, you aren't. 
The present-day Slavic countries no longer have any common interests which would require speaking the same language. Besides, what's wrong with multiply Slavic languages? They all have some special features and they all are beautiful in their own way. So, I can see no point in creating a Pan-Slavic language.


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## Anatoli

My post was in the similarities between Slavic languages, didn't mean to start a new thread. I am not too eager or nostalgic to have a Pan-Slavic language or creating or restoring the Soviet Union or the Soviet bloc but in raising awareness that Slavic languages are more similar than dissimilar, there's quite a lot in common in language, traditions and (arguably) tempers.

While Russians and Ukrainians fight over what to call "beer" (spelled "пиво" in both languages but pronounced as "p*i*va" in Russian and "p*y*vo" in Ukrainian)  , Europe is uniting.

I don't think there is anything to shudder about in Slavic unity. It doesn't have to be politic unity but better relationships.


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## übermönch

Well, Anatoly, most of Slavic countries do unite. They unite together with europe.


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## Etcetera

Well said, mate!


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## Jana337

Anatoli said:
			
		

> My post was in the similarities between Slavic languages, didn't mean to start a new thread. I am not too eager or nostalgic to have a Pan-Slavic language or creating or restoring the Soviet Union or the Soviet bloc but in raising awareness that Slavic languages are more similar than dissimilar, there's quite a lot in common in language, traditions and (arguably) tempers.
> 
> While Russians and Ukrainians fight over what to call "beer" (spelled "пиво" in both languages but pronounced as "p*i*va" in Russian and "p*y*vo" in Ukrainian)  , Europe is uniting.
> 
> I don't think there is anything to shudder about in Slavic unity. It doesn't have to be politic unity but better relationships.


OK, I probably read something more into it, I am sorry. 

I would say that our relationships could hardly be better - now that we finally are not forced into unity.

Jana


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## cyanista

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I would say that our relationships could hardly be better - *now that we finally are not forced into unity.*
> 
> Jana



You're right Jana, that's how many people feel - our countries are not enemies but just give us a break and let us finally enjoy our independence.


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## Etcetera

In Russia people's attitude towards that may be just the opposite. I can understand elder people who may feel offended by the thought that Russia no longer can control its former dominions. And younger people in general don't seem to think about such matters.
As for me, well, I've never feel approving about the Soviet union, and I am glad that it exists no longer.


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## wanderer

Maybe those slavic countries just need a break, for mother-russia being so obnoxious about them in the past 70-something years...


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## Andrey_Moraczewski

Still everyone thinks Pan-Slavic language is for nobody?
Well but I found some places where it is in need.
First I know a businesman from America (he's of Polish origin) and he deals much with Slavic countries, he was using Slovio, then initiated developing of more "Slavic-looking" conlang. 
Then there are some communities like "Slavic Unity" and there are really people from Slvaic countries that want to talk with others, but have to use English instead (more to say, not all of them know English well enough, so it's kind a problem). That's why I think it would be better if to create real useful language for inter-Slavic communications. 

And my personal favorite is Slovianski-N. I wrote already some texts in it, and many people said it is great project. xxx


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## Sobakus

Why make things difficult and invent something, when there is Old Church Slavonic? I don't think any slavic speaker will have trouble understanding it, and it has the benefit of being a natural, rather than constructed one.


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## skye

I don't see any real need for a pan-slavic language (and judging by deleted posts I think people have already said how they feel about a political union). 

I'd think it rather bizarre if someone tried to speak to me in a constructed Slavic language (and I'd probaby think it's Russian or Polish or Bulgarian anyway, depending on the accent they'd have). 

The times I communicated with a Slavic speaker who didn't understand Slovenian or English. - Well, I think it hasn't happened yet. And I can manage some rusty Croatian if need be, but other than that... 

Although I do agree there are quite a lot of similarities, I always found it amusing to compare sentences in different Slavic languages. With Eastern and Western I usually see more similarities once the translation is added (then I can spot similar word roots etc.), but I have difficulties working out the meaning without the translation.


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## Anatoli

It is interesting as a linguistic exercise, people make Swadesh list, show common words, grammar patterns and phonetical changes.

It may be useful for business people travelling often in Eastern Europe to know, which words are commonly understood by most Slavs or at least can serve as a hint and which are specific to a language or a group of languages but perhaps, it's more interesting for linguists. For example, linguists look at other Slavic languages when they want to come up with a translation of a term or creating a new concept. but interesting enough, Slavs often have the same logic when they coin new words. For example, I wonder how the words like _галаваломка (be), главоблъсканица (bg), hlavolam (cs, sk), łamigłówka (pl), головоломка (ru, uk)_ were created.

_BTW, I don't want to be accused of trying to unite all Slavs under the Russian flag or something similar, as this is not my interest. My interest is linguistic and cultural. I wish Slavs knew, undersood and treated each other better than they did in the past. _


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## Andrey_Moraczewski

Sobakus said:


> Why make things difficult and invent something, when there is Old Church Slavonic? I don't think any slavic speaker will have trouble understanding it, and it has the benefit of being a natural, rather than constructed one.



While Old Church Slavonic is more-less understandable for East Slavs and Serbs and Bulgarians, who really have been used this language, hardly West Slavs will understand much of it. Even for Russians there are problems today to understand completely Old Church Slavonic texts.


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## Andrey_Moraczewski

skye said:


> I don't see any real need for a pan-slavic language



I told that I know a businessman who *is practically using* a constructed language!


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## Andrey_Moraczewski

Anatoli said:


> _BTW, I don't want to be accused of trying to unite all Slavs under the Russian flag or something similar, as this is not my interest. My interest is linguistic and cultural.  _



Completely agree! For me Pan-Slavism has nothing to do with political questions, and of course I don't wish to do any unity under Russian flag (as well as under Polish, Serbian etc...)


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## skye

Andrey_Moraczewski said:


> I told that I know a businessman who *is practically using* a constructed language!


 
There is a proverb in Slovenian which says:

Ena lastovka še ne prinese pomladi. 

I wonder how many businesses are there where a single person needs to communicate with speakers of different Slavic languages. 

How understandable this constructed language is to speakers of different Slavic languages - is it more understandable to some than to others?
(If it is slovio, he'd need to invest a lot of money before I'd be willing to listen and to try to understand.  )

How many chances of a misunderstanding are there?


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## skye

And if it's really so easy why do we all prefer to write in English here? (Don't tell me it's because of learners of Slavic languages who are of other nationalities.)

(Although I can see how it could be easier for a businessman to learn a simplified constructed language than to learn Russian from scratch. Especially since his interest in the language is not really "linguistic".)


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## Andrey_Moraczewski

skye said:


> There is a proverb in Slovenian which says:
> 
> Ena lastovka še ne prinese pomladi.
> 
> I wonder how many businesses are there where a single person needs to communicate with speakers of different Slavic languages.
> 
> How understandable this constructed language is to speakers of different Slavic languages - is it more understandable to some than to others?
> (If it is slovio, he'd need to invest a lot of money before I'd be willing to listen and to try to understand.  )
> 
> How many chances of a misunderstanding are there?



You are right, single company is not enough. Still... he spends much time working out this language. It becomes more and more understandable and balanced. 

Why we all speak here in English? Why even in Russian, Polish section everyone speeks English??

I don't want to convince anybody, just I want to know the opinions.


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## skye

Andrey_Moraczewski said:


> Still... he spends much time working out this language. It becomes more and more understandable and balanced.


 
Why don't you show us how this language looks like?


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## Anatoli

Andrey_Moraczewski said:


> Why we all speak here in English? Why even in Russian, Polish section everyone speaks English??
> 
> I don't want to convince anybody, just I want to know the opinions.


I often speak English in the Russian section to make the discussion available to non-natives. I feel their pain as I get stuck when I ask a question about a language, which I am not fluent in and the discussion switches into this language by natives.


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## Kanes

Ще е интересно да се види дали като хора с някаква представа за лингвистика можем да се разбираме на славянски езици? Идеята за църковния език е хубава но ъпсурд.


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## Anatoli

kanes said:


> Ще е интересно да се види дали като хора с някаква представа за лингвистика можем да се разбираме на славянски езици? Идеята за църковния език е хубава но ъпсурд.


Общеславянского языка ещё не существует. Так что вы пишете по-болгарски, а я сейчас по-русски.  И хотя славянские языки похожи настолько, что если писать очень простыми словами, то многие другие славяне могут это понять, этого недостаточно для эффективного обсуждения.


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## SweetCherry

Kanes said:


> Ще е интересно да се види дали като хора с някаква представа за лингвистика можем да се разбираме на славянски езици? Идеята за църковния език е хубава но ъпсурд.


Истина, идеја за црквенословенски је лепа, али апсурдна, јер тај језик није познат свим Словенима.

Back to the toppic, I don't understand those who are getting sick of just hearing the idea about the language of all Slavs. 
Yes, there has been Soviet Union, there has been Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia etc., and what everyone wanted in the end was independence. 
But what does that have to do with this idea?
This is not about politics.
This is not about giving up something of your own. This is about sharing.
This is not about unity. It is about the chance for those who care, and those who need it.

I support the idea, and find it both noble and practical. 
Those who think it would be possible to make a simple and universal language, for the purposes when you travel abroad or business purposes, for example, should definitely work on such a language.


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## Sobakus

There have been many attempts to create constructed languages and non of them have gained a significant following. A constructed language, no matter how good it is(if Slovianski-N is as understandable to other slavs as it is to Russians, it's really astounding!), will never be a match to a natural one.


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## kasiam

Jana337 said:


> I beg to differ. Any mention of Pan-Slavic whatever sends shudders down my spine.


Mine too!  



> There are attempts (quite often by people who have lived abroad for a long time) to craft a kind of unity and to create a Pan-Slavic language but I think they are pretty lame and totally out of step with what permanent residents of Slavic countries feel and think.
> 
> Links:
> Slovio
> Our thread about Slovio
> Slovianski
> 
> A very interesting topic, though. What do the others think? Am I the only one who rather unenthusiastic?
> 
> Jana


 
I think you must not confuse slovio with slovianski here. If you watch the website of slovio and all the pages, to which it has links, you will see, that pan-slavism is everywhere. Their discussion forum is even worse, it is literally overfilled with hatred against Jews, Hungarians, Germans, etc. From what I've understood about slovianski, that language has nothing to do with pan-slavism at all. They simply want, that it will be used as a way to adress more Slavs in one, and possibly as a tool for learning. At least, they keep themself far away from politics. Slovianski looks much better too, I think.

Kasia


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## WannaBeMe

I find Slovio a crap, it doesnt have the Slavic soul. Every slavic language has conservative morphology but Slovio its worse than google-translate.
On the other hand I find Slovianski not bad. It is very fair and very well understandable for all Slavic speakers.
Pan-Slavism, I love this idea! Ofcourse nobody is thinking about politics here but only bringing of the cultures near to eachother, learning from eachother, about eachother, making some good turistic relationships, doing student-exchanges, festivals like "Slavic Bazar" in Belorus or whatsoever.

Between it is easy to make grammar for a eventual slavic lingua franca but vocabulary hmmm. On the end I do like Slovianski but I would make some little little changes in morphology.

Sorry for bad English Volks!


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## trance0

I like what I saw about Slovianski. It is perfectly understandable to me as a South Slavic language native speaker.


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## Awwal12

Well, I think that Pan-Slavic Language is a dead idea. In all parts of it.
1. Grammar. Almost all Slavic languages have quite difficult grammars, which are simplified versions of Ancient Slavic grammar. But grammatical differences are sometimes very noticeable. So, PSL should have comparatively simple grammar and be more analytic than synthetic language - otherwise, for example, Bulgarian will go crazy learning all principles of the noun declension. This way we'll come to the fixed word order, multiple syncategorematic words, etc. No need to say that such a *grammar* lies very far from real Slavic grammars.
2. Vocabulary. There are too many "false friends" and too many extremely different loanwords to create some vocabulary which wouldn't demand great efforts to learn.
3. Phonetics. Yes, it is very different in all Slavic languages. In attempt to create some common phonetics, we'll unavoidably come to the great simplification. Well, it may be interesting to create Pan-Slavic Phonetics, but it wouldn't be natural for the most of Slavs, and if it will be too simple, we could come to the greatest omophonia (like in Japanese).

Conclusion: all attempts to create a Slavic language *which should be understandable to everybody and easy to learn*, are *useless*. It could be even more productive to create a sort of "Slavic Latin", reconstructing the Ancient Slavic language (but it will be extremely difficult for everybody!) and expanding its vocabulary to the necessary degree, using both native and loaned roots.


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## SweetCherry

trance0 said:


> I like what I saw about Slovianski. It is perfectly understandable to me as a South Slavic language native speaker.


I agree.  I didn't have any trouble understanding it.
I must say I didn't like Slovio at all. It is completelly artificial and it was hard for me to understand. Some people wrote that it is easier to learn Slovio than any Slavic language (indeed it should be), but it looks like just another bad propaganda.


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## kasiam

SweetCherry said:


> I agree.  I didn't have any trouble understanding it.


That is exactly, what I like about the language. A south slavic speaker says he doesn't have any trouble, understanding it, I've seen east slavic speakers saying the same. And I, as a west slavic speaker, can only agree.



> I must say I didn't like Slovio at all. It is completelly artificial and it was hard for me to understand.


I personally liked the idea, and even I tried to learn it a bit. But yes, slovianski is better in every way. Slovio is hard to understand at first sight, and quite artificial.



> Some people wrote that it is easier to learn Slovio than any Slavic language (indeed it should be), but it looks like just another bad propaganda.


There's a lot of propaganda about slovio. They claim, that 400 Slavs can understand it, but this is nonsense. If you don't know russian, you may need a dictionary, when you are trying to read it. They also claim, that over 100 people speak the language, but from what I can see, there's only a few who can. Slovio has an impressive dictionary, but it is not very good and all done in a hurry. There's a lot of bad choices, like 'zxrakula' for shark, 'jazika' for language, etc.


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