# Urdu: شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے



## iskander e azam

دوستو،
شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے کے مقولہ پر میرا دھیان دھرا۔
پلیٹس اس کی تعریف دیتا ہے۔ لیکن اس کی تعریف مجھے صحیح نہیں لگتی۔ میرے سمجھ میں اس مقولے کی تعریف ’یہ مشکل کب ختم ہوے گی‘ ہونی چاہئے۔  آپ لوگوں کو کیسا لگتا ہے؟
میں آپ کی مدد کے لیے بہت ممنون ہوں۔
اسکندر


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## marrish

@iskander e azam صاحب

It's been a while and nobody's answered your question. Perhaps you would like to ask the question in English instead?
A follow-up question: Why do you think that the meaning of this saying should be 'When is  this trouble going to end'? Is there perchance some context in which the idiom is used that makes you think so?


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## iskander e azam

marrish said:


> @iskander e azam صاحب
> 
> It's been a while and nobody's answered your question. Perhaps you would like to ask the question in English instead?
> A follow-up question: Why do you think that the meaning of this saying should be 'When is  this trouble going to end'? Is there perchance some context in which the idiom is used that makes you think so?



Friends,

Platts gives the following definition for the phrase *شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے*:

_'How long can you weep for one who died at eventide?' — used to express a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret. (The expression is taken from the custom, among the relations of a dead person, of venting loud lamentations while the corpse remains in the house. If the death happens in the morning, the body is soon removed; but if towards evening, it remains till next morning; in which case the mourners are apt to be overtaken by sleep)._

For me, it does not sound right. From the definition Platts gives I do not see how it can mean "a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret." Platts is an authority but no-one is beyond question. To me, it sounds more appropriate to use the phrase when breaking off from some vain endeavour.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Best wishes,

Alex


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## marrish

You might be right or maybe are not. I would just love to share some more thoughts if I have them if you agree to do the same, I just prefer answering within a context in front of me, which can be your reasoning, lacking a quote that cites a sentence before and a sentence after this idiom. Can you just explain your thoughts in a few words?

Just to kick-start, sharing one definition/explanation in my possession. Please do not hesitate to comment on it:

شام کے مرے کو کہاں تک روئیے: ابھی سے یہ کام شروع ہوا تو کب تک اس کی خبرداری ہو گی طاقت سے زیادہ ہے۔
_shaam ke mare ko kahaaN tak ro'iye: abhii se yih kaam shuruu3 hu'aa to kab tak is kii xabardaarii ho gii, taaqat se ziyaadah hae._

امید ہے دیگر حضرات بھی شامل ہو جائیں گے!۔


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## aevynn

I also have not heard this proverb used myself, so everything below should be taken with a grain of salt. Or maybe a large heaping of salt.

Just in case we have a forum friend who's heard this proverb used and who doesn't read Urdu, the proverb in question is _shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye_. [This _roiye_ is yet another one of these non-imperative -_iye_ forms, it seems like!] This proverb bears some similarity with a line in this sher [also in Nagari], but I have to admit that I don't really understand this sher.

@marrish saahib's resource seems to suggest a variant, _shaam ke *mare* ko kab tak roiye_. When I googled this in Nagari, there were a few hits but using different verb conjugations: _shaam ke mare ko kab tak *rove/rooge/ronaa*_ (and also one that used *sanjhaa* in place of _shaam_!). The _Rajpal Kahavat Kosh_ translated the proverb as "To mourn for the departed is quite in vain." There were just two usages which had some context around them, and in context the proverb basically seemed to mean something like, "That's enough complaining!" Also, both of these usages prefixed their invocation of the proverb with a note about who they heard it from: one said _buzurgoN_, the other said _ammaa_. So maybe this proverb is not something that is alive and kicking among younger and more internet-proficient HU speakers.

In any case, based on this very limited data, I suppose @iskander e azam's suggestion about "breaking off from some vain endeavor" seems about right, perhaps with the caveat that the vain endeavor in question might specifically be mourning/complaining/etc about something.


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## iskander e azam

Friends, 

Both your posts have added to my understanding and make sense to  me.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## Qureshpor

From a little bit of searching here and there, it seems this line is part of a couplet by Dulhan Begum, wife of Mirza Asafu_ddaulah of Awadh.

jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab soiye
shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye

jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab *ham* so'eN
shaam ke murde ko *ham* kab tak ro'eN

1st line: I have madly fallen in love. There is not much else I can do to get out of it. It's gtting pretty late at night and high time I went to sleep!

2nd line: This is obviously connected with the first and is a further explanation of the situation the poet is in.

It is customary amongst Muslims to bury the dead as soon as practicable.

If a person were to die early in the day, his/her loved ones have pretty much all day to mourn, wait for loved ones who live a long way away for their participation and then the person is provided with the ritual washing before burial followed by funeral prayers. However when a person dies in the latter part of the day, say in the evening, there is a dilemma. Should s/he be buried the same evening or the next day. Either way, one can wail and cry for only so long. One needs to go to sleep at *some* stage... just as the poet needs to go to sleep sooner or later.

I hope this explanation makes some sort of sense.

Edit: I know marrish SaaHib has offered an explanation of this idiom. In another book this idiom is given the meaning as, "saarii 3umr ke jhaghRe kii kyaa shikaayat".


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## marrish

Yet another one says

*شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے*: جو شخص شام کو مرے اسے دوسرے دن جلاتے ہیں۔ اس لیے وارثوں کو رات بھر رونا پڑتا ہے۔ جو تکلیف گزر گئی اس کی شکایت فضول ہے۔ 
shaam ke murde ko kab tak ro'iye: jo shaxs shaam ko mare use duusre din jalaate haiN, is liye waarisoN ko raat bhar ronaa paRtaa hae. jo takliif guzar ga'ii us kii shikaayat fuzuul hae.

BTW _Baawaa_ Platts is not the one who penned the explanation cited in post #3, he perused this definition from an older dictionary.


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## aevynn

Qureshpor said:


> jaa phaNsaa dil zulf meN ab soiye
> shaam ke murde ko kab tak roiye



Thank you for the explanation! It seems that the _sher_ has a typo on Rekhta (_Dhoiye_ instead of _roiye_). This did seem rather weird;_ begam saahibaa murde ko lekar *Dhote* kyuuN phir rahii haiN?!_



marrish said:


> جو تکلیف گزر گئی اس کی شکایت فضول ہے۔
> jo takliif guzar ga'ii us kii shikaayat fuzuul hae.



This description matches the usages I found in Nagari on the internet fairly well!


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## Alfaaz

A few potentially relevant (in the sense that they convey similar sentiments) quotes from poetry:

موت آتی نہیں کہیں غالبؔ
کب تک افسوس زیست کا کیجے

مرزا غالب

ہو چکا ہونا تھا جو اب دل کو کیا سمجھائیں ہم 
اپے غم کی داستان کیا زباں پہ لائیں ہم

مسرور انور از پاکستانی اُردو فلم سوغات (١٩٧٠)

اب نہ دہرا فسانہ ہائے الم
اپنی قسمت پہ سوگوار نہ ہو
فکرِ فردا اتار دے دل سے
عمر رفتہ پہ اشکبار نہ ہو
عہدِ غم کی حکایتیں مت پوچھ
ہو چکیں سب شکایتیں مت پوچھ
آج کی رات سازِ درد نہ چھیڑ

فیض احمد فیض​


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## iskander e azam

Friends, 

It has just occurred to me that  *شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے* could be used as a spur to action. If something cannot be put off (in the saying it is sleep) then why put it off? Do it now!

However, I have no evidence it is used in this manner.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## mannoushka

This sentence means something in Persian, too. Could anyone please tell me whether or not the meaning in Urdu is the same: “to die in the evening is to be but a lone star.”


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## Qureshpor

Salaam mannoushka. The Urdu sentence could be translated into Persian something like this.

تا کی مردہء شام گاہ را گریہ کنیم؟

یعنی کسیکہ بوقتِ شام مردہ است تا کی برایش گریہ کنیم؟


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## mannoushka

Thank you. It can only be a coincidence that the Persian ‘reading’ also sounds like an informally worded proverb:
شام که مُردی، کوکبِ تک‌‌‌‌رویی.

Of course there is to my knowledge no such expression in existence.


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## Qureshpor

Another meaning that I have been able to find is this.

"shaam ke murde ko ko'ii kab tak ro'e"

"ek masal hai. us shaxs par yaa us chiiz par kahte haiN jis ka Gham-o-andoh hameshah rahtaa ho."


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Another meaning that I have been able to find is this.
> 
> "shaam ke murde ko ko'ii kab tak ro'e"
> 
> "ek masal hai. us shaxs par yaa us chiiz par kahte haiN jis ka Gham-o-andoh hameshah rahtaa ho."


QP SaaHib, these two definitions appear to be almost equivalent, aren't they? One of them could have been the source of another.


iskander e azam said:


> Platts gives the following definition for the phrase *شام کے مردے کو کب تک روئیے*:
> 
> _'How long can you weep for one who died at eventide?' — used to express a circumstance which is likely to prove a matter of life-long regret. (The expression is taken from the custom...)_


As for the dating of the above given definition, it appears in Shakespear for the first time — [edit:] published as early as in 1834 vs Platts 1884.


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## Qureshpor

Yes, you are right marrish SaaHib. It seems such a long time ago that I had forgotten a similar explanation had been offered before! Frankly, I am still not convinced as to the exact meaning of this saying. My input was from a book by Jalal Lakhnavi.


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## marrish

I believe I am able to imagine quite well that digging through sources of merit for reference is a time consuming activity, what's more it often becomes a journey through past centuries, along which some tempting curiosities guarantee the necessary distraction. Thank you for sharing the name of the author of the book - Jalal Lakhnavi was born in 1832 and died in 1909.


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