# Language Learning: Teaching ESL



## Phoebe1112

Hi! I'm in my second year of Spanish, and I REALLY enjoy it! Once I learn to speak it fluently, I was hoping I could use it to teach English to the Spanish-speaking immigrants that we have here in the US. The problem is that my aunt told me that that might not be possible. She says that ESL classrooms have people from all different language backgrounds. Is that true? Is there any way to teach only Spanish-speakers so that I'd be able to talk to my students without having to gesture like Tarzan?

Thank you for any help you can give me!


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## GenJen54

Hi Phoebe, 

As a former ESL teacher, I can tell you that in some instances, your aunt is correct. Many ESL schools have a mix of students, so use of a second language is not only necessary, in some cases, it is forbidden. 

In the school where I taught, we worked through a total immersion system. Every class, even the most elementary, was taught IN ENGLISH. Students who could not get beyond "hello" were taught not in their own language, but using methods and role-playing situations that allowed them to start speaking and understanding ENGLISH fairly quickly. 

Now, that doesn't mean that other types of schools don't exist. In cities with large hispanic populations, one can find ESL centers specifically targeted to Spanish-speaking students. 

These schools sometimes offer more than ESL classes, however. Often they also have classes that teach immigrant students cultural and survival skills (how to apply for a mortgage, how to find a doctor, etc.) In my town, the school is sponsored by the local hispanic community agency, and is not part of the school system. Most classes I believe are free to the public.


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## Phoebe1112

So there are schools where I could teach in Spanish; they just aren't as common? I think teaching cultural and survival skills could be fun! Would most large cities in the southwest have one of these ESL centers specifially targeted to Spanish-speaking students?

Thanks again!


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## Mariaguadalupe

Hi Pheobe!

I too, am an ESL teacher.  When I was studying, one of my teachers used to say, "when teaching ESL you will jump, skip, stand on your head before you use other language but the target language with your students".  In other words, it was not advised to share the native language of your students in order to "force" communication in the target language.  As GenJen said, "using methods and role-playing situations that allows them to start speaking and understanding ENGLISH fairly quickly".

I can assure you, your students will benefit if you speak to them in their target language only.  

Good luck!


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## Phoebe1112

The thing is, I take Spanish, but I speak English in my classes all the time. Is there a big difference between the way Spanish is taught and the way English is taught? Would I have to speak English and only English to my students right from day one?


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## Mariaguadalupe

I am fully bilingual (English-Spanish) and I can tell you that when I learned English in kindergarden, my teacher did not speak Spanish to me.  I went to a school in the U.S.  Eventhough most of the students in school were from México (private school) we did not speak in Spanish because it was not allowed.  I even spoke to my sisters in English during school, but once our mom picked us up, well, Spanish was the way to go!

As an ESL teacher in Mexico, some of my students refused to speak English in class.  Obviously, those are the students that do not fully master English regardless that they had been studying English since first grade.  

Do you mean you speak English in your Spanish classes?


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## GenJen54

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> Would I have to speak English and only English to my students right from day one? http://forum.wordreference.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1095435



This is usually the preferred method.  The idea is not to teach English like you have learned Spanish in middle or high school, which is in "sections."   In ESL, courses tend to be focused on learning models which mimic real life situations.  Priority is also given to speed of learning.  As such, teaching  in English tends to be the most effective way of doing this.  And yes, gesturing like Tarzan is quite normal. 

The only time I can think of when you might teach English using Spanish is if you are teaching English classes in a country in which the prominent language is Spanish.  For example, if you taught English classes in a Mexican high school, you might teach in Spanish.  



http://forum.wordreference.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1095435


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## Mariaguadalupe

Oh, Gen, but then you get nowhere!  

I've been there, and it is really awful trying to think of similarities between both languages.  It just can't be done.  And saying (which I have seen done):  La estructura del futuro utilizando el verbo _to be_....    

Crazy!  It is much more difficult trying to do it that way.  You may, if not too much, may translate a word, idiom, etc., just to speed things along.

Another crazy thing is for ESL teachers asking their students to translate sentences, paragraphs, etc.  Students never learn English!  They don't learn to translate either, but their progress in language learning is extremely slow.  They don't learn to "think" in English.  Remember you need to think in English so you can speak.  But if your students are used to translating sentences, paragraphs, they won't be able to "speak" in English and they will get frustrated in the long run.


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## Phoebe1112

Mariaguadalupe said:
			
		

> Do you mean you speak English in your Spanish classes?


 
Yeah. I thought that was what I said.


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## Mariaguadalupe

I thought I had read properly. Speak spanish even if its harder. The more you practice the easier it will get. Language learning works both ways. 

I learned French when I was in high school, and we were not allowed to speak in English during class. This really helped a lot.


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## Phoebe1112

Mariaguadalupe said:
			
		

> Oh, Gen, but then you get nowhere!
> 
> I've been there, and it is really awful trying to think of similarities between both languages. It just can't be done. And saying (which I have seen done): La estructura del futuro utilizando el verbo _to be_....
> 
> Crazy! It is much more difficult trying to do it that way. You may, if not too much, may translate a word, idiom, etc., just to speed things along.
> 
> Another crazy thing is for ESL teachers asking their students to translate sentences, paragraphs, etc. Students never learn English! They don't learn to translate either, but their progress in language learning is extremely slow. They don't learn to "think" in English. Remember you need to think in English so you can speak. But if your students are used to translating sentences, paragraphs, they won't be able to "speak" in English and they will get frustrated in the long run.


 
So does this mean that if I taught ESL, I'd be speaking English 95% of the time but occasionally have to use Spanish to explain certain things?


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## GenJen54

Phoebe said:
			
		

> So does this mean that if I taught ESL, I'd be speaking English 95% of the time but occasionally have to use Spanish to explain certain things? http://forum.wordreference.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1095472



I would say that almost any school you taught at would require you to teach in English 100% of the time if they want you to be effective.  That's not to say you cannot use your Spanish skills outside of the classroom, to further assist students who do not understand, or to just converse with them socially. 

Any effective ESL teacher knows, however, that TOTAL immersion - as challenging as it may be - it the BEST way to move forward.


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## Phoebe1112

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> This is usually the preferred method. The idea is not to teach English like you have learned Spanish in middle or high school, which is in "sections." In ESL, courses tend to be focused on learning models which mimic real life situations. Priority is also given to speed of learning. As such, teaching in English tends to be the most effective way of doing this. And yes, gesturing like Tarzan is quite normal.
> 
> The only time I can think of when you might teach English using Spanish is if you are teaching English classes in a country in which the prominent language is Spanish. For example, if you taught English classes in a Mexican high school, you might teach in Spanish.


 
So teaching ESL would be different from the way I'm learning Spanish because speed is so much more of an issue?


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## Mariaguadalupe

_"So does this mean that if I taught ESL, I'd be speaking English 95% of the time but occasionally have to use Spanish to explain certain things?"_

I would recommend that venue, yes. The advantage of speaking the same native language as your students, is that you would understand them when they spoke to you in Spanish. But you would still have to encourage them to speak in English. 

That's what I used to do. When my students got "stuck" with their words, they would say the word, sentence, etc. in Spanish, I would repeat what they wanted to say in English, and they would repeat what they wanted to say in English too. A lot of hard work! But they DO learn!

As a teacher, you do need to do a lot of research and prepare really well for your classes. You need to bring extra visual aids, knick knacks and other stuff to help in getting your words accross.


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## Phoebe1112

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I would say that almost any school you taught at would require you to teach in English 100% of the time if they want you to be effective. That's not to say you cannot use your Spanish skills outside of the classroom, to further assist students who do not understand, or to just converse with them socially.
> 
> Any effective ESL teacher knows, however, that TOTAL immersion - as challenging as it may be - it the BEST way to move forward.


 
So I'd still be allowed to use Spanish, just not in class because total immersion is the fastest way to learn?

BTW, this is the COOLEST forum!!! I can't believe how fast you people are responding!!!


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## GenJen54

> So teaching ESL would be different from the way I'm learning Spanish because speed is so much more of an issue?


At many schools, yes. In high school and college, most students (in the U.S.) take up to three hours of foreign language classes per week.

In private ESL schools, such as the one where I taught, students are in classes - studying ENGLISH ONLY - six to eight hours *a day*. They become fluent very quickly in _speaking, writing and reading comprehension_. 

In classes sponsored at cultural centers and similar facilities, many students cannot afford to be in class six to eight hours a day because they must work to support their families. As such, focus is given to learning "life situations" quickly. 

- What to say when you go to the bank.
- What to say when you go to the doctor.
- What to say when you call 9-1-1.
- How to look in the Yellow Pages.

Much emphasis is also given on SPOKEN ENGLISH.  In *some* instances, immigrant students are not highly literate in their native language. As such, they care more about learning to SPEAK in English, and not worry about formal written grammatical constructs.



> So I'd still be allowed to use Spanish, just not in class because total immersion is the fastest way to learn?


 Maybe, maybe not. It would depend entirely upon the school and the school's regulations. At the school where I taught, teachers were not allowed to use our foreign language skills, even outside of the classroom, because it was viewed as favortism. If I speak French and only speak to the French kids (in French), then other students, being from Japan, Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc., who don't speak French, might think or perceive that I am partial to the French students.


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## Mariaguadalupe

Phoebe, Gen is giving you excellent advise!  Good luck!


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## Phoebe1112

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> At many schools, yes. In high school and college, most students (in the U.S.) take up to three hours of foreign language classes per week.
> 
> In private ESL schools, such as the one where I taught, students are in classes - studying ENGLISH ONLY - six to eight hours *a day*. They become fluent very quickly.
> 
> In classes sponsored at cultural centers and similar facilities, many students cannot afford to be in class six to eight hours a day because they must work to support their families. As such, focus is given to learning "life situations" quickly.
> 
> - What to say when you go to the bank.
> - What to say when you go to the doctor.
> - What to say when you call 9-1-1.
> - How to look in the Yellow Pages.
> 
> Much emphasis is also given on SPOKEN ENGLISH. In *some* instances, immigrant students are not highly literate in their native language. As such, they care more about learning to SPEAK in English, and not worry about formal written grammatical constructs.


 
Okay, I think I get it. Thank you! 



> Maybe, maybe not. It would depend entirely upon the school and the school's regulations. At the school where I taught, teachers were not allowed to use our foreign language skills, even outside of the classroom, because it was viewed as favortism. If I speak French and only speak to the French kids (in French), then other students, being from Japan, Costa Rica, Malaysia, Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc., who don't speak French, might think or perceive that I am partial to the French students.


 
But what if I got a job through a hispanic agency like you mentioned that directed its classes toward Spanish-speaking kids?


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## Mariaguadalupe

The theory behind foreign language teaching is to do so in the target language, however, knowing your students native tongue can aid you to understand your students and certain difficulties they may have as they learn the target language.  

And as GenJen said:  
"At many schools, yes. In high school and college, most students (in the U.S.) take up to three hours of foreign language classes per week.

In private ESL schools, such as the one where I taught, students are in classes - studying ENGLISH ONLY - six to eight hours *a day*. They become fluent very quickly in _speaking, writing and reading comprehension_. 

In classes sponsored at cultural centers and similar facilities, many students cannot afford to be in class six to eight hours a day because they must work to support their families. As such, focus is given to learning "life situations" quickly. 

- What to say when you go to the bank.
- What to say when you go to the doctor.
- What to say when you call 9-1-1.
- How to look in the Yellow Pages.

Much emphasis is also given on SPOKEN ENGLISH. In *some* instances, immigrant students are not highly literate in their native language. As such, they care more about learning to SPEAK in English, and not worry about formal written grammatical constructs."

It all depends on the focus of the program you will teach.


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## jinti

I completely agree with GenJen54 and Mariaguadalupe, but just to put in my two cents....

I taught ESL for years, and with the exception of one class (special case and situation), I never spoke a word of anything but English in the classroom.  I'm generalizing here, but as a rule, my (adult) students were only willing to struggle with English to communicate with people they could not speak with in their native language.  As soon as they found that the teacher (or anyone else) could speak their language, that was the end of English, or at least there was a significant reduction in their motivation to wrestle with the language.  I did use my knowledge of Spanish to help me figure out what they were trying to say and to predict areas of difficulty, but I really found that they did more and better work in class when they had a real communication barrier to overcome.

I think, too, that using native languages in the classroom just encourages people to translate instead of learning to think in the target language.  In the short run, it seems like an attractive crutch, but in the long run, it will slow the students down.

Also, don't discount the advantages of having a multilingual class.  When everybody speaks the same language, it's a constant struggle to get them to use English while doing pair work or group work.  It's just easier to use the common native language, so they slip into that.  With a multilingual class (mine often had a dozen or so languages represented), it's easier to partner them up with people who don't speak the same native language, and using English in class discussions and even on breaks doesn't seem so artificial to them.

Of course, there are also bilingual programs in which content courses are taught in Spanish, alongside ESL classes and English-language content courses.  Bilingual ed takes many forms, but you might be interested in seeing what's available out there, since it might end up being more in line with the way you've envisioned yourself teaching.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Phoebe, your posts give the impression that you are more interested in speaking Spanish than in teaching ESL.

If you truly wish to teach ESL (and be effective at it), there are many courses of different lengths that will help you to reach this objective.  Different ESL teachers here (I, too, have been one) have explained the important elements of being an effective teacher.

If you wish to combine Spanish and teaching, there are many international schools in hispanic countries; but be aware that most of them require 2 years of teaching experience before they will hire you.

If speaking Spanish is your main objective, I suggest a different career than teaching.

saludos,
Chaska


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## french4beth

I would agree with all of the above posters - in order for students to learn English as quickly as possible, you must speak only in English in class.  

There's a fantastic organization that offers free tutoring in English to anyone who is learning English called Literacy Volunteers (see here: http://www.literacyvolunteers.org/).  Some students speak no English at all, so it can be very challenging even setting up an appointment to meet with the student, but only English is used when teaching.  

As a former ESL teacher and LV volunteer, English-only is the way to go in the classroom if the students are to learn rapidly.

If you want to use your Spanish language skills, I would suggest doing volunteer work for agencies that work with Latino populations.


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## Phoebe1112

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> Phoebe, your posts give the impression that you are more interested in speaking Spanish than in teaching ESL.
> 
> If you truly wish to teach ESL (and be effective at it), there are many courses of different lengths that will help you to reach this objective. Different ESL teachers here (I, too, have been one) have explained the important elements of being an effective teacher.
> 
> If you wish to combine Spanish and teaching, there are many international schools in hispanic countries; but be aware that most of them require 2 years of teaching experience before they will hire you.
> 
> If speaking Spanish is your main objective, I suggest a different career than teaching.
> 
> saludos,
> Chaska


 
I'm all right with using ONLY English in the classroom. I just can't imagine learning about hard things in grammar without them first being explained to me in my native language. If a kid were simply not getting it in class, would I be allowed to explain the material to him in his native language after class?


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## Phoebe1112

jinti said:
			
		

> I completely agree with GenJen54 and Mariaguadalupe, but just to put in my two cents....
> 
> I taught ESL for years, and with the exception of one class (special case and situation), I never spoke a word of anything but English in the classroom. I'm generalizing here, but as a rule, my (adult) students were only willing to struggle with English to communicate with people they could not speak with in their native language. As soon as they found that the teacher (or anyone else) could speak their language, that was the end of English, or at least there was a significant reduction in their motivation to wrestle with the language. I did use my knowledge of Spanish to help me figure out what they were trying to say and to predict areas of difficulty, but I really found that they did more and better work in class when they had a real communication barrier to overcome.


 
That makes sense.



> I think, too, that using native languages in the classroom just encourages people to translate instead of learning to think in the target language. In the short run, it seems like an attractive crutch, but in the long run, it will slow the students down.
> 
> Also, don't discount the advantages of having a multilingual class. When everybody speaks the same language, it's a constant struggle to get them to use English while doing pair work or group work. It's just easier to use the common native language, so they slip into that. With a multilingual class (mine often had a dozen or so languages represented), it's easier to partner them up with people who don't speak the same native language, and using English in class discussions and even on breaks doesn't seem so artificial to them.


 
Good point. 



> Of course, there are also bilingual programs in which content courses are taught in Spanish, alongside ESL classes and English-language content courses. Bilingual ed takes many forms, but you might be interested in seeing what's available out there, since it might end up being more in line with the way you've envisioned yourself teaching.


 
So in a school like that, you teach some courses in Spanish, but ESL in English? Are there a lot of these schools? Would I have to get a license in bilingual ed _and_ ESL ed? (I'd be willing to try do that; I'm just asking out of curiosity. )


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## Mei

Hi Phoebe1112,

I just want to say that here in Spain, in some kindergarden schools the theacher speaks English all the time and I think is better this way. My nephew (7 years old) has a better pronuntiation than me. 

I don't understand it... do you want to speak spanish to teach English?  Just curious.

Cheers

Mei


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## GenJen54

Phoebe said:
			
		

> I'm all right with using ONLY English in the classroom. I just can't imagine learning about hard things in grammar without them first being explained to me in my native language.


By the time students are learning more advanced concepts (around Level 5 of 8 in the school where I taught), their comprehension of the language is much higher, and as such it actually becomes easier to understand. 

Again, teaching ESL is not at all like teaching or learning other languages.  The philosophy is completely different, because most concepts are driven at immersion-only programs.  

I agree with Chaska Ñawi in that if you really want to teach ESL, you need to find a class which gives you a good overview of the teaching methods and ideas.

Many ESL schools require their teachers to have some foreign language experience, and even experience living abroad.  The philosophy behind this is that it puts teachers in the place of having had a shared experience with the students.  They understand a) what it is like to learn a foreign language and can come up with concepts to better teach, and b) they understand what it is like to live in a foreign country. 

As for licensing requirements, different schools have different  requirements.  Some require Master's Degrees and Teaching Certificates.  Others require only extensive ESL training and foreign language (and life) experience.


> If a kid were simply not getting it in class, would I be allowed to explain the material to him in his native language after class?


Not necessarily.  Again, please read our earlier posts.  Different schools have different philosophies.  Any school worth its weight in salt, however, would do everything possible to DISCOURAGE teachers from interacting with students in any language but English.  

I agree again with Chaska, it sounds as if your desire to use your Spanish skills is higher than your desire to teach English.  In this case, (again) a teaching position in a Spanish-speaking country would be the best place for you, in that you can use your Spanish in your daily life, but use English to teach at school.


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## Phoebe1112

Thank you all for your help! I'm sorry I've asked the same question a thousand times. I'm just having difficulty grasping the idea that it's _possible_ to learn by complete immersion. I really DO believe you, but it's SO different from the way I'm trying to learn Spanish, and it seems impossible.


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## fenixpollo

Is the "way you're trying to learn Spanish" the traditional way with textbooks, pair practice and lots of English?  That's not the best way to learn a language; I believe it's the _wrong_ way.  Total immersion, even at the lower levels, is the best way to learn a language.  After all, that's how you learned your first language, isn't it?  

Bilingual education is mostly for little kids (K-3) who don't have a context to learn English; they have to learn how to spell in their first language before they can spell in their second! After age 10 or so, bilingual education does more harm than good.

When I taught English in Mexico, I was fluent in Spanish.  But any time I used Spanish in the classroom, my students suffered.  They learned at a visibly slower pace when they used Spanish as a crutch, just like a person walking with crutches walks slowly and with bad posture.  

At the lower levels, immersion is still key. The frustration that students feel at not understanding can be overcome with signs and gestures, TPR instruction, visual aids and the like. They learn fast and they quickly overcome that frustration.

Maybe instead of trying to teach English or bilingual ed, you should look at teaching Spanish as a second language?


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## Phoebe1112

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Now, that doesn't mean that other types of schools don't exist. In cities with large hispanic populations, one can find ESL centers specifically targeted to Spanish-speaking students.
> 
> These schools sometimes offer more than ESL classes, however. Often they also have classes that teach immigrant students cultural and survival skills (how to apply for a mortgage, how to find a doctor, etc.) In my town, the school is sponsored by the local hispanic community agency, and is not part of the school system. Most classes I believe are free to the public.


 
I feel bad about bringing this back from the millionth page, but I've been thinking about it and can anyone tell me where I can get more information about this type of school? I looked on the Internet and didn't find much because I didn't know quite what to search for. Thanks a bundle!

~Phoebe


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## Reniseb

I totally agree with jinti. I am about to become an ESL teacher and one of the gold rules to teach is NOT to use the pupils' mother tongue. This will totally ruin the purpose, because if the students know that you speak Spanish (or their mother tongue)  they will never speak complete English; they will mix both languages.

And perhaps you will have to "gesture like Tarzan" but that is what TPR (total physical response)  is all about. And it is one of the most used and postitive techniques to teach any language.


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## GenJen54

> I feel bad about bringing this back from the millionth page, but I've been thinking about it and can anyone tell me where I can get more information about this type of school? I looked on the Internet and didn't find much because I didn't know quite what to search for. Thanks a bundle!


 
Hi Phoebe, 

I'm glad you've given some thought to the situation. 

As for classes, ESL classes (in the US) are normally found in any of the following:

Minority-based community centers;
Universities (specifically for students entering that University);
private ESL-only schools. 

You might search for any of those in your area.  

I don't know about every city.  In my city, the local Hispanic Community Alliance runs the community-based center.   It's my understanding (I've not called directly) most of the classes are free of charge, but are also taught by VOLUNTEERS. 

This may be a good way for you to at least get some general experience and to see if you like it.  Again, however, I would caution that teaching ESL in ENGLISH is the preferred method.


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## KateNicole

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Is the "way you're trying to learn Spanish" the traditional way with textbooks, pair practice and lots of English? That's not the best way to learn a language; I believe it's the _wrong_ way. Total immersion, even at the lower levels, is the best way to learn a language. After all, that's how you learned your first language, isn't it?
> 
> * * *
> Maybe instead of trying to teach English or bilingual ed, you should look at teaching Spanish as a second language?


 
I think that the "traditional" way of learning Spanish in the US public school system is due partly to the fact that many Spanish teachers are _not_ fluent (or at least that was my experience.) From what I have seen, most Spanish teachers at the k-12 level here are not native speakers (not that there is anything wrong with that) and their speaking and conversation skills are very questionable (extremely problematic) . . . so they stick to what they know best--reading, writing, grammar, etc. That's all fine and dandy, but when most people study a language, their primary goal is to be able to speak. If you cannot speak to your students in the target language, how will they learn? Even worse, if you _won't/don't_ speak to your students in the target language (in the case of ESL), how will they learn??

So in a nutshell, I'm also all for immersion, whether it be in an ESL classroom or in a Spanish classroom. It's great that you want to help Spanish-speaking immigrants. If you want to better your Spanish, it might be a good idea for you to, in your free time, tutor someone who is already studying ESL (in an English-only classroom). Aside from helping your student with ESL homework, you could show him or her parts of your town that they might not already be familiar with, go out to eat, show him/her how to survival things in English--make an appointment, go grocery shopping at an "AMERICAN" supermarket (as opposed to a Mexican cornerstore, for example), make a bank transaction, etc. The possibilities are endless. This way you can practice your Spanish a little bit without disrupting the environment of an ESL classroom, and you'll also be helping someone.


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## Brioche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Is the "way you're trying to learn Spanish" the traditional way with textbooks, pair practice and lots of English? That's not the best way to learn a language; I believe it's the _wrong_ way. Total immersion, even at the lower levels, is the best way to learn a language. After all, that's how you learned your first language, isn't it?


 
That is a completely false analogy.
Such methods work just fine for young children, 
but adults do not learn in the same way as children.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Brioche said:
			
		

> That is a completely false analogy.
> Such methods work just fine for young children,
> but adults do not learn in the same way as children.



I don't understand your point.  Are you saying that immersion at an adult level does not work?  That it's inappropriate?

And if you are indeed saying this, what evidence do you have?  I've seen nothing, either in experience or in the professional literature, to support this claim.


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## GenJen54

Immersion certainly does work on adults.  I've seen it evidenced at the school where I used to teach. 

The ONLY time we had non-adult students was during our summer program.  

The rest of the year, our ONLY students were adults; from college-age up to businessmen in their forties and fifties. Many lived with "host" families to get the true "American" experience, and be surrounded by English speakers 24/7.

Those who did not immerse themselves outside of the school environment made notably less progress.

There is also the case of another moderator on these forums, who moved to a country many years ago without knowing a word of that country's language. That person is now not only fluent, but TEACHES that language to others. 

If you have factual evidence that immersion techniques do not work on adults, I would be interested in seeing it.


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## karuna

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> I don't understand your point.  Are you saying that immersion at an adult level does not work?


Maybe for different people different methods work the best. But I wish that immersion was used more at schools in my country.

I experienced big difficulties learning Russian at school. Russian actually is rather similar to Latvian but I was the worst in my class and I believe that I was the only student who couldn't speak or read Russian after graduating. Although I studied very hard and I learned all declensions, conjucations, endings, vocabulary etc, I couldn't understand even one sentece of spoken language. I even learned long poems by heart without understanding them. I exceeded in math and sciences and I liked Latvian literature very much therefore I thought that I just have no talent for foreign languages at all.

Now, after gone through many difficulties, I think that the teaching method was faulty. I learned Russian very easily later on when I traveled to Russia.

The difference between me and other students was that I lived in purely monoligual environment, I watched no TV and had no contact with Russian speaking people. All others at least watched Russian channels, popular Russian movies and cartoons (_Nu pogadi!_). But at school we basically studied literary language only.

We also learned English at school but it was almost useless. I learned English later by myself from self-study books, from the Internet and watching English movies.

Two years ago I decided to study Spanish from Pimsleur audio tapes which used the "natural" method. I completed the course and although I can't really speak Spanish yet, with some help of dictionay I can read Spanish newspapers quite easily. The ads exaggerate the efficiency of Pimsleur tapes, of course, but it gave me confidence that I can learn other languages if a proper learning method is chosen. Currently I am also learning Japanese from Pimsleur cds. Because it is not IE language, I thought that it will be very different and difficult to learn but so far it seems to be even easier than Russian (except kanji part which I am not touching yet).


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## fenixpollo

Brioche said:
			
		

> That is a completely false analogy. Such methods work just fine for young children, but adults do not learn in the same way as children.


 Au contraire, Brioche. Research indicates that adults CAN learn languages in the same way as children -- and more quickly, too, because adults already have a context to put the new language into. What's "false" is all that stuff that adults have been fed about not being able to absorb language after age eleven.


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## Phoebe1112

That's really interesting, fenixpollo. I would've thought that the ability to learn would at least slow down. I've heard over and over that kids should start learning languages in middle school because if they wait until, like, 10th grade (as I did) it's harder to learn.


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## fenixpollo

The area of the brain that controls language does become less active with the onset of puberty. However, what is false is the idea that this drop in activity therefore means that adults learn more slowly or that it is harder for adults to learn. Adults have other advantages that children don't.

Here is what wikipedia (I know, I know) has to say about age and language acquisition: 





> It is commonly believed that children are better suited to learn a second language than are adults. However, in general second language research has failed to support the critical period hypothesis in its strong form, which argues that full language acquisition is impossible beyond a certain age. Even those who begin learning a language late in life are capable of gaining a high level of fluency. The only aspect of language shown to follow the (strong) critical period hypothesis is accent: the overwhelming majority of those who begin learning a language after puberty are unable to acquire a native-like accent.


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## Mariaguadalupe

I agree with wikipedia..."_The only aspect of language shown to follow the (strong) critical period hypothesis is accent: the overwhelming majority of those who begin learning a language after puberty are unable to acquire a native-like accent."_ However, even that can be refuted_._ It all depends on the students' "exposure" to said language. As Karuna said, "The difference between me and other students was that I lived in purely monoligual environment, I watched no TV and had no contact with Russian speaking people. All others at least watched Russian channels, popular Russian movies and cartoons (_Nu pogadi!_)." Had she been exposed to Russian she would've acquired it faster. 

One of the best teachers for kindergarden at school had an extremely thick Spanish accent, however, her students learned English _without_ an accent. That is something that always baffled me. How she got her students to speak English clearly, yet she was unable to improve her English.


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## Florzinha

I have also been an ESL teacher. I lived in a small town in eastern Hungary and spoke NO Hungarian when I started. From day one, we had 100% English immersion classes, and my students LOVED it. It forced them to speak English if they wanted to communicate with me, and I tried to make classes contemporary and interesting enough that they did want to communicate with me.

I would not let them speak to each other in Hungarian, even to ask "what is XYZ in English?"

In fact, even when I learned enough Hungarian to undertand what they were asking when stumped, I would make them figure out another way to say it in English that didn't use the word they were struggling with...

I learned to do this through my own experience. I spent a lot of time in Brazil before and after grad school, and I did become fluent in Portuguese. But fluency for me wasn't necessarily KNOWING every single word in Portuguese that I would ever need in daily life. Instead, it was being able to get past a moment where I didn't know the correct word.  I mean, if I was having a conversation and couldn't remember the word for, say, checking account, I wasn't able to stop in the middle of my sentence and ask "How do you say Checking Account in Portuguese?" So I had to use my Portuguese to explain what I meant by 'checking account." Instead of saying to my friend "I went to the bank and opened a checking account," I would say "I went to the bank in order to set up a way to keep money there and write checks in order to pay people for goods and services." And then my Brazilian friend would say "Oh, you opened a checking account?" And then I'd file that knowledge away.

There is no replacement for this ability to be able to work around a word you don't know and *describe* what you mean. And it would be very important to teach this skill to your future students. For this reason, unfortunately for you, it doesn't matter WHAT language you speak or whether you and your students share a common tongue beyond English. The only thing that matters is that you have English language skills and can convey them to your students. That is the best gift or lesson you can give them!

If you really want to speak Spanish each and every day, why not become a Spanish teacher as well? You can practice total immersion with your students, too. Or, you can do what I did and work in the business world at a company that does a lot of business in Latin America--I used to go through each day speaking English, Spanish, and Portuguese. I never knew which language until the phone rang or I opened up my email. It was very challenging and I loved every minute of it. My language skills became so much better than they would have been if I had just studied the languages in class....

I think it's great that you want to be a teacher and share your knowledge. Teaching is a great profession and one that gives you a lot of satisfaction. It was one of the best jobs I've ever had.

Heather (aka Flor)


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## Phoebe1112

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> The area of the brain that controls language does become less active with the onset of puberty. However, what I said is "bunk" is the idea that this drop in activity therefore means that adults learn more slowly or that it is harder for adults to learn. Adults have other advantages that children don't.
> 
> Here is what wikipedia (I know, I know) has to say about age and language acquisition:


 
That's really interesting.


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## Phoebe1112

Florzinha said:
			
		

> I have also been an ESL teacher. I lived in a small town in eastern Hungary and spoke NO Hungarian when I started. From day one, we had 100% English immersion classes, and my students LOVED it. It forced them to speak English if they wanted to communicate with me, and I tried to make classes contemporary and interesting enough that they did want to communicate with me.
> 
> I would not let them speak to each other in Hungarian, even to ask "what is XYZ in English?"
> 
> In fact, even when I learned enough Hungarian to undertand what they were asking when stumped, I would make them figure out another way to say it in English that didn't use the word they were struggling with...
> 
> I learned to do this through my own experience. I spent a lot of time in Brazil before and after grad school, and I did become fluent in Portuguese. But fluency for me wasn't necessarily KNOWING every single word in Portuguese that I would ever need in daily life. Instead, it was being able to get past a moment where I didn't know the correct word. I mean, if I was having a conversation and couldn't remember the word for, say, checking account, I wasn't able to stop in the middle of my sentence and ask "How do you say Checking Account in Portuguese?" So I had to use my Portuguese to explain what I meant by 'checking account." Instead of saying to my friend "I went to the bank and opened a checking account," I would say "I went to the bank in order to set up a way to keep money there and write checks in order to pay people for goods and services." And then my Brazilian friend would say "Oh, you opened a checking account?" And then I'd file that knowledge away.
> 
> There is no replacement for this ability to be able to work around a word you don't know and *describe* what you mean. And it would be very important to teach this skill to your future students. For this reason, unfortunately for you, it doesn't matter WHAT language you speak or whether you and your students share a common tongue beyond English. The only thing that matters is that you have English language skills and can convey them to your students. That is the best gift or lesson you can give them!
> 
> If you really want to speak Spanish each and every day, why not become a Spanish teacher as well? You can practice total immersion with your students, too. Or, you can do what I did and work in the business world at a company that does a lot of business in Latin America--I used to go through each day speaking English, Spanish, and Portuguese. I never knew which language until the phone rang or I opened up my email. It was very challenging and I loved every minute of it. My language skills became so much better than they would have been if I had just studied the languages in class....
> 
> I think it's great that you want to be a teacher and share your knowledge. Teaching is a great profession and one that gives you a lot of satisfaction. It was one of the best jobs I've ever had.
> 
> Heather (aka Flor)


 
Thanks for the nice, long, thought-out post!

You guys have been very helpful. I think that what I was envisioning was more like bilingual ed like Jinti said. (I wouldn't mind teaching younger kids.) Does anyone have any experience with that?


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## fenixpollo

I would help you out, but it's illegal in my state.


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## Phoebe1112

Seriously?? Why is it illegal?


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## fenixpollo

Arizona's voters passed Proposition 203 several years ago, requiring that *all instruction* in publicly-funded classrooms be in English. Administrators or board members who allow bilingual instruction can be suspended for 5 years and have to pay legal fees and damages awarded in any legal action taken by parents who feel that their children have been denied a quality English education.


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## GenJen54

I would assume that "normal foreign language teaching programs are unaffected" means that a Spanish conversation class could actually be conducted in - gasp - Spanish?!


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## fenixpollo

In theory, but I've actually had some high-school students complain of being reprimanded for speaking Spanish in the halls. What is this... 1950 again?


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