# I should have said



## mateintwo

It seems there are 2 ways to say I should have said

1. Avrei dovuto dire

2. Dovrei aver detto

Are these expressions identical or is there a difference in meaning and/or usage?

I looked at the thread for should and it seems 1.construction is the most common way to translate should have but 2. construction is identical to English and hence easier.

If the answer is yes can I then assume Avrei potuto dire = potrei aver detto and Avrei voluto dire = Vorrei aver detto.


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## combustion

Avrei dovuto dire= Instead of what I said, I should have said something different

Dovrei aver detto= I don't remember what I said, but I'm quite sure I said this thing.

The same for the form with "potere".

Avrei voluto dire: for example, Yesterday I wanted to say a thing, but my terrible English didn't permit to say that.

Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry of what I said, I wish I said a thing that didn't hurt you.

My examples are so stupid, but I hope that they're clear...

cecilia


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## pinturicchio07

combustion said:


> Avrei dovuto dire= Instead of what I said, I should have said something different
> 
> Dovrei aver detto= I don't remember what I said, but I'm quite sure I said something.
> 
> The same for the form with "potere".
> 
> Avrei voluto dire: for example, Yesterday I wanted to say something, but my terrible English didn't permit to say it.
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I said something that didn't hurt you.
> 
> My examples are so stupid, but I hope that they're clear...
> 
> cecilia


 
Just a few minor corrections!


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## Dushnyoni

mateintwo said:


> It seems there are 2 ways to say I should have said
> 
> 1. Avrei dovuto dire
> 
> 2. Dovrei aver detto
> 
> Are these expressions identical or is there a difference in meaning and/or usage?
> 
> I looked at the thread for should and it seems 1.construction is the most common way to translate should have but 2. construction is identical to English and hence easier.
> 
> If the answer is yes can I then assume Avrei potuto dire = potrei aver detto and Avrei voluto dire = Vorrei aver detto.


1) Avrei dovuto dire = I should have said something but I did not, either on purpose of simply because I forgot to. It also means that I should I should have said something but by mistake I said something else. Ex: Avrei dovuto dire quello che pensavo ma temevo di ferirlo / Avrei dovuto dire "è una una cosa sciocca ma invece ho detto che ere una cazzata"
2) Dovrei aver detto = I thought I said. It can be used either in a stern way or ironically. EX. Se non mi sbaglio, dovrei aver detto che non voglio che giochi con un coltello.


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## Taniaa

combustion said:


> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I would have said something that didn't hurt you.



... is my 'correction' correct?


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## pinturicchio07

Taniaa said:


> ... is my 'correction' correct?


 
Perfetto!


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## GavinW

Dushnyoni said:


> 1) Avrei dovuto dire = I should have said something but I did not, either on purpose of simply because I forgot to. It also means that I should I should have said something but by mistake I said something else. Ex: Avrei dovuto dire quello che pensavo ma temevo di ferirlo / Avrei dovuto dire "è una una cosa sciocca ma invece ho detto che ere una cazzata"
> 2) Dovrei aver detto = I thought I said I think I said . It can be used either in a stern way or ironically. EX. Se non mi sbaglio, dovrei aver detto che non voglio che giochi con un coltello.


 
Dovrei aver detto, in the second usage/scenario:

I think I said / I must have said / (Or even: "I am supposed to have said" !)

In other words, the sense of dovrei is rooted in the present tense, in scenario 2), a fact which is reflected in the use of the present tense in English.

But feel free to disagree, as always!

EDIT: Sorry, to clarify: "I thought I said" is not necessarily "wrong", it's just not the first/clearest way I would express this idea in English!


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## combustion

pinturicchio07 said:


> Just a few minor corrections!


 

About the correction:

Dovrei aver detto= I don't remember what I said, but I'm quite sure I said something.

It isn't correct: I'd say "Dovrei aver detto" if I'm not sure I said a particular think but almost sure... I'm not really good to explain what I want to say... sorry!

cecilia


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## combustion

Taniaa said:


> ... is my 'correction' correct?


 
Credo che il desiderio sia gia' inserito nel wish e non vada ripetuto nel would. Al massimo "I would have said"! Ma forse mi sbaglio.
cecilia


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## Parergon

GavinW said:


> Dovrei aver detto, in the second usage/scenario:
> 
> I think I said / I must have said / (Or even: "I am supposed to have said" !)



Or also: I should have said.

Gavin: are we in accord?


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## Dushnyoni

Parergon said:


> Or also: I should have said.
> 
> Gavin: are we in accord?


Correction: Do we agree / Do you agree with me?


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## GavinW

pinturicchio07 said:


> Perfetto!


 
Thankyou, thankyou! I don't agree with you, and I'm very glad I don't! Please read on!

Riassumendo (To recap/To summarize -- NB, non si dice "Reassuming....!)

In a thread which went nowhere recently, a new discussion, and a whole new thread was sparked by my claim there was a BE/AE split here. Pinturicchio, you're American right? Well, the fact is us Brits would never say "would have" here. We'd never say: 

Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I would have said something that didn't hurt you. [quote copied and pasted from post above]

Here, _we _would only _ever _say:

Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I had said something that didn't hurt you.

(We Brits instinctively regard this as conforming to and obeying the rules of conditional sentence constructions, in this case type 3, I believe -- an unfulfilled condition in the past. But whatever.)

Pinturicchio, as a native AE speaker, can you confirm or deny your angle on the usage and gramnmar here? I would be so much obliged...


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## GavinW

Parergon said:


> Or also: I should have said.
> 
> Gavin: are we in accord?


 
No, per l'appunto!

"I should have said" si referisce esclusivamente all'altra frase: "Avrei dovuto dire". 

Tricky, I know, but I hope that makes it clearer for you.


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## Alxmrphi

or accordance* (not common, still correct)


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## combustion

GavinW said:


> Thankyou, thankyou! I don't agree with you, and I'm very glad I don't! Please read on!
> 
> Riassumendo (To recap/To summarize -- NB, non si dice "Reassuming....!)
> 
> In a thread which went nowhere recently, a new discussion, and a whole new thread was sparked by my claim there was a BE/AE split here. Pinturicchio, you're American right? Well, the fact is us Brits would never say "would have" here. We'd never say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I would have said something that didn't hurt you.
> 
> Here, _we _would only _ever _say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I had said something that didn't hurt you.
> 
> (We Brits instinctively regard this as conforming to and obeying the rules of conditional sentence constructions, in this case type 3, I believe -- an unfulfilled condition in the past. But whatever.)
> 
> Pinturicchio, as a native AE speaker, can you confirm or deny your angle on the usage and gramnmar here? I would be so much obliged...


 
I was in doubt I wrote a wrong tense in my phrase, but do you agree with me that it's wrong to repeat wish then would?
cecilia


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## GavinW

combustion said:


> I was in doubt I wrote a wrong tense in my phrase, but do you agree with me that it's wrong to repeat wish then would?
> cecilia


 
Sorry, I don't quite understand your question!


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## Parergon

Alex_Murphy said:


> or accordance* (not common, still correct)



i.e. are you in accordance? (to be in accordance)


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## Alxmrphi

I wish I would... is perfectly fine, and very common


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## Alxmrphi

Parergon said:


> i.e. are you in accordance? (to be in accordance)



Yes I know, the other poster said "I am in accord" and I said "accordance" meaning I corrected the phrase from "I am in accord" to "I am in accordance"
I should've made that clearer, sorry.


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## combustion

Alex_Murphy said:


> I wish I would... is perfectly fine, and very common


 

Ok! I was wrong!

For GavinW... this was my question!
bye!
ceci


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## Parergon

Alex_Murphy said:


> Yes I know, the other poster said "I am in accord" and I said "accordance" meaning I corrected the phrase from "I am in accord" to "I am in accordance"
> I should've made that clearer, sorry.



No worries. It's perfectly clear to me now. Thanks.


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## pinturicchio07

GavinW said:


> Thankyou, thankyou! I don't agree with you, and I'm very glad I don't! Please read on!
> 
> Riassumendo (To recap/To summarize -- NB, non si dice "Reassuming....!)
> 
> In a thread which went nowhere recently, a new discussion, and a whole new thread was sparked by my claim there was a BE/AE split here. Pinturicchio, you're American right? Well, the fact is us Brits would never say "would have" here. We'd never say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I would have said something that didn't hurt you. [quote copied and pasted from post above]
> 
> Here, _we _would only _ever _say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I had said something that didn't hurt you.
> 
> (We Brits instinctively regard this as conforming to and obeying the rules of conditional sentence constructions, in this case type 3, I believe -- an unfulfilled condition in the past. But whatever.)
> 
> Pinturicchio, as a native AE speaker, can you confirm or deny your angle on the usage and gramnmar here? I would be so much obliged...


 
Gavin, you caught me!   Actually, I can confirm that AE uses both the AE and BE ways of your sentence. Although, the way you said it is more commonly used here. Alot of it could be due to the poor use of the conditional. The worst grammatical mistakes in AE, in my opinion, come from an improper use of the subjunctive.

What are your thoughts?

Lorenzo


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## ElaineG

GavinW said:


> Thankyou, thankyou! I don't agree with you, and I'm very glad I don't! Please read on!
> 
> Riassumendo (To recap/To summarize -- NB, non si dice "Reassuming....!)
> 
> In a thread which went nowhere recently, a new discussion, and a whole new thread was sparked by my claim there was a BE/AE split here. Pinturicchio, you're American right? Well, the fact is us Brits would never say "would have" here. We'd never say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I would have said something that didn't hurt you. [quote copied and pasted from post above]
> 
> Here, _we _would only _ever _say:
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry about what I said, I wish I had said something that didn't hurt you.
> 
> (We Brits instinctively regard this as conforming to and obeying the rules of conditional sentence constructions, in this case type 3, I believe -- an unfulfilled condition in the past. But whatever.)
> 
> Pinturicchio, as a native AE speaker, can you confirm or deny your angle on the usage and gramnmar here? I would be so much obliged...


 
To me (AE born, bred and mostly buttered  ), "I wish I would have said" sounds _a bit clumsy _but _perfectly acceptable in a casual spoken register_.  I hope that distinction is clear.  What I mean to say is, thinking about it, I prefer Gavin's formulation -- cleaner and simpler, but I can see myself saying "I wish I would have" (with that swallowed have that sounds like "of").  

What's confusing here is that Alex seems to have voted with the AE side, despite being entirely British born, bred, and buttered.

I want to think about the grammar a bit more.


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## Alxmrphi

Elaine, there have been no other Brits posting in this thread? I wasn't aware there was a BE/AE distinction, can you explain what you mean please?
Ok I missed GavinW's post, because they are talking about Dovrei aver.... which Jana warned me not to try to tackle yet.
Still would like the English explanation of what I have agreed with? Thanks


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## pinturicchio07

ElaineG said:


> To me (AE born, bred and mostly buttered  ), "I wish I would have said" sounds _a bit clumsy _but _perfectly acceptable in a casual spoken register_. I hope that distinction is clear. What I mean to say is, thinking about it, I prefer Gavin's formulation -- cleaner and simpler, but I can see myself saying "I wish I would have" (with that swallowed have that sounds like "of").
> 
> What's confusing here is that Alex seems to have voted with the AE side, despite being entirely British born, bred, and buttered.
> 
> I want to think about the grammar a bit more.


 
Elaine, that's what I should have pointed out as that could happen once in a while.


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## Parergon

In order to summarize our discussion over the use of the conditional (+ wish), I'll try to write some general rules. Please don't hesitate to correct me as well as to add some examples about the use of wish/conditional.

*1st) True situation, possibile future hypothetical situation*
Simple present / Future simple
If I drop this glass, I'll break it.
or
I'll give you a call if I find your key

*2nd) Hypothetical situation*
Past simple / Modal + Infinitive
If I was 1st Minister, I would make recycling the law.

*3rd) Possibilities in the past*
Past perfect / Modal + Present perfect
If I hadn't missed that train, I would have got the job.

What about 'wish'? Any diffirence?


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## Alxmrphi

Don't say "1st minister", say "Prime Minister"... it sounds weird.


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## Paulfromitaly

ElaineG said:


> To me (AE born, bred and mostly buttered  ), "I wish I would have said" sounds _a bit clumsy _but _perfectly acceptable in a casual spoken register_.  I hope that distinction is clear.  What I mean to say is, thinking about it, I prefer Gavin's formulation -- cleaner and simpler, but I can see myself saying "I wish I would have" (with that swallowed have that sounds like "of").
> 
> What's confusing here is that Alex seems to have voted with the AE side, despite being entirely British born, bred, and buttered.
> 
> I want to think about the grammar a bit more.



There's a very detailed thread about it on the EO forum and Gavin's point of you came out to be the most grammatically correct one.. 
wish + would have


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## Parergon

Alex_Murphy said:


> Don't say "1st minister", say "Prime Minister"... it sounds weird.



Thank you, I will remember that!


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## pinturicchio07

Paulfromitaly said:


> There's a very detailed thread about it on the EO forum and Gavin's point of you came out to be the most grammatically correct one..
> wish + would have


 
Those Brits always sound more proper when they speak anyway!


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## GavinW

ElaineG said:


> "I wish I would have said" sounds _a bit clumsy _but _perfectly acceptable in a casual spoken register_.


 
Thanks, just what I needed. It's very close to the answer I would have given, as a Brit, but, importantly not exactly the same... 

My own take on this construction in BE would be: "...sounds a bit clumsy but _just about forgiveable _in a casual spoken register".

In other words, it sticks out more (and can even grate, depending on the delivery) in BE. Especially because sometimes Americans pronounce "would have" as distinct, clearly separated words (as well as eliding them on other occasions, and generating the famous "of" sound, which is also common in BE). In other words, the degree to which "would have" is tolerated in BE is in direct proprtion to the extent to which the construction is partially "disguised" or "attenuated" by elsiion.

That, together with my own experience of _talking informally _with and listening to Americans, has turned my suspicion of a BE/AE usage split practically into a certainty.


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## GavinW

Paulfromitaly said:


> There's a very detailed thread about it on the EO forum and Gavin's point of you came out to be the most grammatically correct one..
> wish + would have


 
Thanks, that's the thread that was at the back of my mind.


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## GavinW

pinturicchio07 said:


> Those Brits always sound more proper when they speak anyway!


 
Wha'? Ya mean more propa', like? More propa' 'n what you sound like 'an all, sort a' fink?


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## mateintwo

combustion said:


> Avrei dovuto dire= Instead of what I said, I should have said something different
> 
> Dovrei aver detto= I don't remember what I said, but I'm quite sure I said this thing.
> 
> The same for the form with "potere".
> 
> Avrei voluto dire: for example, Yesterday I wanted to say a thing, but my terrible English didn't permit to say that.
> 
> Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry of what I said, I wish I said a thing that didn't hurt you.
> 
> My examples are so stupid, but I hope that they're clear...
> 
> cecilia


 
Thanks and your examples are good.
Avrei dovuto dire= Instead of what I said, I should have said something different
*This seems to be the classical meaning in English of should have (done something but I did not do it)*

Dovrei aver detto= I don't remember what I said, but I'm quite sure I said this thing.
*Sounds more like I must have said*

Avrei voluto dire: for example, Yesterday I wanted to say a thing, but my terrible English didn't permit to say that.
*Again the classical meaning of I would have liked to (do something but did not do it)*

Vorrei aver detto: for example, I'm sorry of what I said, I wish I said a thing that didn't hurt you.
*This sounds like I wished I said.*

So the conclusion is I guess you use in Italian Conditional + PP + Infinitive construction only when then meaning is I should/would/could have done something but did not do it. What I call the classical meaning*.*


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## Paulfromitaly

GavinW said:


> In other words, it sticks out more (and can even grate, depending on the delivery) in BE. Especially because sometimes Americans pronounce "would have" as distinct, clearly separated words (as well as eliding them on other occasions, and generating the famous "of" sound, which is also common in BE). In other words, the degree to which "would have" is tolerated in BE is in direct proprtion to the extent to which the construction is partially "disguised" or "attenuated" by elsiion.



Now I'm not sure what you actually find a bit clumsy: 
_I wish I would have_ only or also simply _I wish I would_?

Grammars state that although you can use the form: *I wish + would* the subject of _would_ cannot be the same as the subject of _wish_ as this would be illogical..


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## GavinW

Paul:
Actually, although the point I was making referred specifically to a conditional-type sentence without "wish", in this thread at least (unlike the other one you gave the link for), what sounds clumsy is "I wish he would have" (given that, as the grammars correctly state, "I wish (that) I would..." is just... horrible (ie wrong). 

The consensus on the best way of saying this seems to be "I wish (that) he had".

Hope that's clear...!


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## Alxmrphi

I wish I would... 
I wish he would
I wish they would.

I don't follow what you mean Paul, nothing sounds more right than a sentence like this:

"Now that all this new stuff has come out, I wish I'd have (of) listened to you before!"


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## pinturicchio07

Alex_Murphy said:


> I wish I would...
> I wish he would
> I wish they would.
> 
> I don't follow what you mean Paul, nothing sounds more right than a sentence like this:
> 
> "Now that all this new stuff has come out, I wish I'd have (of) listened to you before!"


 
It sounds ok like this as well:

"Now that all this new stuff has come out, I wish I had listened to you before!"


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## Alxmrphi

Is this debate just over adding "have" in here?


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## Paulfromitaly

GavinW said:


> Paul:
> Actually, although the point I was making referred specifically to a conditional-type sentence without "wish", in this thread at least (unlike the other one you gave the link for), what sounds clumsy is "I wish he would have" (given that, as the grammars correctly state, "I wish (that) I would..." is just... horrible (ie wrong).
> 
> The consensus on the best way of saying this seems to be "I wish (that) he had".
> 
> Hope that's clear...!


Yes, it's clear.

I wish he had done it. 
I wish he would have done it. 
I wish I would do it.   
I wish he would do it.


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## Cesca524

Here's a good explanation that I found:

I tried to post the URL but apparently I am prohibited (until I have made 30 posts or more)!

"*would have for had**.* In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use _would have_ in place of the subjunctive _had_ in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as _If she would have_ (instead of _if she had_) _only listened to me, this would never have happened._ But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amount—but 16 percent—accepts it in the sentence _I wish you would have told me about this sooner."Quote taken from: The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English.  1996.
_


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## Alxmrphi

Paulfromitaly said:


> Yes, it's clear.
> 
> I wish he had done it.
> I wish he would have done it.
> I wish I would do it.
> I wish he would do it.



Paul...........

Number 2 is  NOT


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## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:


> Paul...........
> 
> Number 2 is  NOT


 
Well, really, what we've ascertained is that it's somewhere on the infinite sliding scale between   and  .  It's not great grammar, either in BE or AE, but it is reasonably accepted in informal speech (not writing) in AE , and I guess how bad it sounds in BE is up for debate.


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## Alxmrphi

It doesn't sound bad AT ALL in BE, that's what I am trying to understand here, people saying this is a sort of "slang" way to say it, and I'm pretty baffled.


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## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:


> It doesn't sound bad AT ALL in BE,.


 
Well, you and Gavin are going to have duke that one out.



> that's what I am trying to understand here, people saying this is a sort of "slang" way to say it, and I'm pretty baffled


 
It's not _slang_, in my view.  It's more that it's not grammatically super-correct and informal (appropriate for talking but not writing).  I found reading through the linked EO thread very helpful; you may too.


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## ladybird

mateintwo said:


> It seems there are 2 ways to say I should have said
> 
> 1. Avrei dovuto dire
> 
> 2. Dovrei aver detto
> 
> Are these expressions identical or is there a difference in meaning and/or usage?
> 
> I looked at the thread for should and it seems 1.construction is the most common way to translate should have but 2. construction is identical to English and hence easier.
> 
> If the answer is yes can I then assume Avrei potuto dire = potrei aver detto and Avrei voluto dire = Vorrei aver detto.


 
This is such a looong thread so I will probably get moaned at but..

I think I see where the confusion lies in "I should have.."(sounds familiar)!

I was taught that dovrei=I should and avrei=I would.
So I also thought that "I should have"=dovrei avere

Anybody else made the same assumption?


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## Alxmrphi

avrei = I would _have

_I made the exact same assumption.
There are two ways

Avrei potuto dire = I would have been able to say (I could say)
Potrei aver detto = I would be able to have said (I could say)

There are different nuances in Italian, though, them I haven't learnt yet.


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## ladybird

Alex_Murphy said:


> avrei = I would _have_
> 
> I made the exact same assumption.
> There are two ways
> 
> Avrei potuto dire = I would have been able to say (I could say)
> Potrei aver detto = I would be able to have said (I could say)
> 
> There are different nuances in Italian, though, them I haven't learnt yet.


 
Missed out the have, sorry.

So by my logic, not too great at the best of times, the translation for avrei dovuto would be I would have had to.
In the sense of I should. I think I have got it now.


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## Alxmrphi

Yes.. "I would have had to" is the same as "I should" really, there is no way to translate the actual word "should", so I'm told.
Glad it's clearer.


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## GavinW

ElaineG said:


> Well, you and Gavin are going to have duke that one out.


 
Yes, Alex: fisticuffs at dawn...?

(Sorry, Elaine, your "duke" beats me... Please start a new thread on this in a forum of your choice... just kidding.)

Actually, I'd go with Elaine's explanation, more or less. I had been looking for an AE/BE split here, but then I read Cesca524's post (by the way, Cesca, a source would have been helpful there...!): the quote convinced me it's a BE thing too. But I still get the AE accent when I think of this construction, and please note the following post (from an AE MT), from another recent thread in IE on swearing and blasphemy (you might remember this, Alex!):

"If I would have used any of this language when I was a young boy, I would have been beaten bloody." (sorry, forgotten the forero's name)

In sum, I feel that in AE there is less of a perception that this construction is incompatible with the requirements and rigors of written English (as opposed to spoken English).


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## Cesca524

I apologize- I just added a source!


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## GavinW

Thanks Cesca! Nice job.


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