# The trees glittered with the tumbling of leaves



## Kupaturel

I was wondering how to translate this sentence:

"The trees glittered with the tumbling of leaves."

It's part of the poem 'September, 1918' by Any Lowell that I'm doing a project on. 

Thank you!


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## retrogradedwithwind

诗最难翻译。。。

伴随着叶子摇晃树在闪闪发亮


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## 枫十二

I really like this poem, I think the first part of the poem is trying to picture a warm beautiful scene, in order to contrast with the cold "broken" war.
So I'll just try to abstract the beauty of the scene:
the sunshine and the tumbling leaves.
My attempt:
阳光抚摸着微风中颤动着的叶子 or 阳光抚摸着风中雀跃着的叶子(I am not sure about the red part)

Can you explain these two sentences?

1. And note the *crisp variety *of its* flights* of leaves. I think this is very important to understand that *tumbling leaves.* I am not sure whether I totally get the meaning.I used 雀跃着 which means the leaves are dancing like birds.

2. And the houses ran along them *laughing out of* square, open windows. I am still learning English, I feel a bit strange about this sentence.I can't picture what the scene is. I guess that *laughing out of* means happiness. I can't understand the grammer of this sentence too.


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## Skatinginbc

My attempt: 樹木閃耀, 因葉子翻筋斗栽了跟頭

Reasons:
(1) balance:
"This afternoon was the color of water falling (降落) through sunlight (= 今天下午, 是水從陽光中穿落的顏色 ==> 下太陽雨 = 負面的落雨 + 正面的陽光)
The trees glittered with the tumbling (滾落) of leaves (= 樹木閃耀, 因葉子翻筋斗栽了跟頭 ==> 負面的滾落 + 正面的閃閃發亮)
The sidewalks shone like alleys of dropped (掉落) maple leaves (負面的 drop vs. 正面的 shine)...For I have time for nothing but the endeavor to _balance_ myself upon a _broken_ world."
(2) childlike innocence
"And the houses ran along them laughing out of square, open windows. Under a tree in the park, Two little boys, lying flat on their faces..." (翻成"葉子栽跟頭"便可作為"屋子開窗笑"的原因之一).

==> 所以我的翻譯想顯露"平衡"(苦中有樂)的概念, 也想保持赤子之心, 用描述童話世界似的語氣.


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## 枫十二

Skatinginbc said:


> (1) balance:
> "This afternoon was the color of water falling (降落) through sunlight (= 今天下午, 是水從陽光中穿落的顏色 ==> 下太陽雨 = 負面的落雨 + 正面的陽光)
> The trees glittered with the tumbling (滾落) of leaves (= 樹木閃耀, 因葉子翻筋斗栽了跟頭 ==> 負面的滾落 + 正面的閃閃發亮)
> The sidewalks shone like alleys of dropped (掉落) maple leaves (負面的 drop vs. 正面的 shine)...For I have time for nothing but the endeavor to _balance_ myself upon a _broken_ world."



I didn't notice these, If so, I'll make some change in my attempt:
阳光抚摸着风中翩翩起舞的叶子.（我觉得抚摸也能铺垫后面的战争）


Actulally I don't like these implications. I think at this point, before the war topic come in, everything needs to be perfect, these implications make perfect imperfect.

For me, that two children picking red berries scene is the most soul-touching part, it immediately reminds me of the movie,The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas. Maybe the idea of using children to reflect the cruelty of the war comes from this poem.


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## retrogradedwithwind

你们想得真多，让我都没怀疑我是不是没读懂那诗了……又回去读了一遍，挺简单的诗。

主题是反战。旧大陆还在打一战呢，新大陆一片升平景象，这就是所谓的broken world.

第一句，水从阳光中落下的颜色……其实意思就是“今天下午是一个彩虹般的下午”。laughing out of 那句也没太懂，差不多是笑声从窗中传出的意思。its flights of leaves, 这个its和前后的it 应该是同一个，就是this afteroon。

楼主要翻译的那句很简单的，不能随意增加原文没有的词汇。其实那句意思就是，树叶唰唰作响，树木看着发光。都是很常见的景象。


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## 枫十二

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 主题是反战。旧大陆还在打一战呢，新大陆一片升平景象，这就是所谓的broken world.



这是一首反战的诗，我觉得它写得很好，诗歌嘛，本来就是有人喜欢有人不喜欢。诗仙李白的好多诗我都不喜欢呢，奇了怪了，这首英文诗我很喜欢，从来都不敢触碰英文诗。


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> My attempt: 樹木閃耀, 因葉子翻筋斗栽了跟頭


我又来针对Skating了……搞那么复杂，我还以为是树木栽了跟头……


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## NewAmerica

My version is simple:

*树林闪烁，树叶飘舞*

因为原诗的下句是：The sidewalks shone like alleys of *dropped* maple leaves。注意dropped一词。原来是满地飘落的枫叶！结合上句：This afternoon was the colour of water falling through *sunlight*。于是诗人描绘的景象豁然开朗：众树在阳光下闪闪发光，美丽的枫叶颤抖着穿过密织的光线飘然落地。凝练成词句便是：*树林闪烁，树叶飘舞。*


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## 枫十二

NewAmerica said:


> *树林闪烁，树叶飘舞*


我觉得从尊重原文的角度，的确应该把树林闪烁译出来，但是这树林闪烁在中文里感觉完全没有美感。



NewAmerica said:


> The sidewalks shone like alleys of *dropped* maple leaves



我觉得这是在说人行道映着阳光像掉满了枫叶的小径，并没有说之前掉下来的叶子是枫叶。


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## NewAmerica

美感是主观的。我想Skating提出“樹木閃耀”时，必然伴有想像中的美感；同理，我提出“树林闪烁”时，也有强烈的美感。诚实就好。


枫十二 said:


> 我觉得这是在说人行道映着阳光像掉满了枫叶的小径，并没有说之前掉下来的叶子是枫叶。



  枫叶与否不论。总之是掉下来的叶子是吗？
tumbling 对 dropped，这就抓住了原文的本意。


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## retrogradedwithwind

翻译不是解读……
The tumbling of leaves, 树叶的跌倒，应该是树叶被吹得歪斜的样子。


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## SuperXW

枫十二 said:


> 但是这树林闪烁在中文里感觉完全没有美感。


树林闪烁挺美的啊……
可能你觉得表述太直白，但这场景本身已经是美的了。


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## Skatinginbc

不管怎麼翻 tumbling, 總得把它和 crisp (note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves) 的概念結合，必須是 easily broken or crumbled (這又和 broken world 呼應了), 必須是 brisk, clear and brusque. 

 翩翩起舞 的那種古典舞不 crisp.  Hip hop 裡的翻筋斗則是.  別翻得太「溫馨」, crisp 是 「冷」的 (cold and not very friendly).


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## 枫十二

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 翻译不是解读……


我完全不了解翻译这个行业，没有发言权。我只是觉得像诗歌这样的文学作品，如果前几句吸引不了人的眼球，别人根本不会继续看下去。尽量地让它充满诗意就好，我觉得树木闪烁不美，完全是我个人的感受。

我太喜欢这首诗了，昨天我在英文区提问时，都被flooding禁言了。
根据这两个帖子，tumbling leaves，crisp variety
我觉得tumbling leaves 就是说 树叶黄了，旋转着从树上轻轻掉下来的样子，没有风。（类似skatinginbc,但是我刚刚追加的提问还没有人答复我）


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## Skatinginbc

作者明明描述的是一個 broken world, 怎麼到了你們手上像是完美的世界？

「脆」(易折，負面) 但有「生氣」(正面) 是重點，「美」不是.


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## 枫十二

前面的完美世界是为了和broken world主题突然进来的时候形成强烈对比，震撼人心啊。


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## Skatinginbc

滿地落葉的世界就是一個 broken world.  葉子從樹枝broke off.  作者描述的是一個充滿生氣的破碎的世界.


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## 枫十二

This afternoon was the colour of water *falling* through sunlight;
The trees glittered with the* tumbling* of leaves;
The sidewalks shone like alleys of *dropped* maple leaves,

我看到你这个想法了，你再想想呢，这三个词一定得是负面的么，我觉得这三个词都是中性词。

再第四句：
And the houses ran along them laughing out of square, open windows.
laughing 更是充满了快乐
参见 laughing out of


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 不管怎麼翻 tumbling, 總得把它和 crisp (note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves) 的概念結合，必須是 easily broken or crumbled (這又和 broken world 呼應了), 必須是 brisk, clear and brusque.
> 
> 翩翩起舞 的那種古典舞不 crisp.  Hip hop 裡的翻筋斗則是.  別翻得太「溫馨」, crisp 是 「冷」的 (cold and not very friendly).



   美国加州的 dojibear解释得挺好。

   树叶太轻，筋斗太沉。前者在空气中阻力大，所以有飘逸感；后者则基本不受空气阻力影响。所以译时应适当协调。



dojibear said:


> "Tumbling" means rolling over: sometimes one side is up, sometimes another side is up. To me "tumbling leaves" are *leaves that twist and turn and flip over as they fall down from a tree*. They do not have to contact each other (or a branch) to be "tumbling", that is, changing how they are oriented or pointed. Leaves are so light that just falling in air does that to them.


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## Skatinginbc

單獨一個 fall, 不好說，三個連用， 強調的是一個  falling 的世界.  可是三句中又連用三個正面的東西來加以 balance.  造就一個「脆但又生氣勃勃」的景象.  苦中作樂的笑也可是真笑真樂.

tumble: (1) fall suddenly, clumsily, or headlong, (2) perform acrobatic or gymnastic exercises, typically handsprings and somersaults in the air.
Tumble 和 crisp 連用,  沒給我飄逸的感覺.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> *不管怎麼翻 tumbling, 總得把它和 crisp (note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves) 的概念結合*，必須是 easily broken or crumbled (這又和 broken world 呼應了), 必須是 brisk, clear and brusque.
> 
> 翩翩起舞 的那種古典舞不 crisp.  Hip hop 裡的翻筋斗則是.  別翻得太「溫馨」, crisp 是 「冷」的 (cold and not very friendly).



   关于这一点，我专门在英语区作了提问，母语为美式英语的Copyright作了“不一定“的答复。

   我的提问：


NewAmerica said:


> I wonder whether the word "*tumbling*" here must have the sense of being *crisp*?



   Copyright的答复：



Copyright said:


> No, not really. And while dojibear makes a good point about falling through the air, I would suggest that many leaves do hit other leaves and branches on their way down, rather than simply falling with no other tree parts below them, or exploding outward into the breeze in a final Afro moment.


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## Skatinginbc

你問得不清不楚，Copyright 當然答得文不對題.  Crisp 是描述掉落動作， 他還以為你問他 樹葉是不是變 crisp 了才掉落.


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## 枫十二

Kupaturel, you started this thread, and you are doing a project on this, you don't have any oppinion?


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## Skatinginbc

NewAmerica, 你知道為什麼Copyright重覆建議葉落時撞擊其他枝葉嗎？ 是因為 tumble 有 fall clumsily 的 connotation.  我不認為是飄逸的動作.


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## retrogradedwithwind

我说一点啊。那个 the crisp variety of its flights of leaves中，leaves是树叶吗？

前面是its flights，it指this afternoon.
这一句的意思应该是这个下午的离去吧。


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## 枫十二

我那crisp variety的帖子一直没人回，我也不确定。

我现在的理解是：那叶子飞舞的记忆是多么地清爽可口啊
前面大概说的是：将来的某一天，世界会没有了战争，我才会把今天下午的记忆再次地拿出来，放在指尖好好地欣赏，咀嚼它的甘甜，今天下午叶子飞舞的味道是多么地脆啊（我就抛砖引玉）

可是Skatinginbc 和我的理解似乎出入很大。


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## retrogradedwithwind

前面说的都是今天下午，这里应该不变。

将今天下午放在指间翻转，嗅它的气味，记录下它离开时清晰又不同的轨迹。


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## Skatinginbc

不理會詩的詮釋了.  該句的字面意思很簡單：
樹木因葉子滾落而閃動.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 你問得不清不楚，Copyright 當然答得文不對題.  Crisp 是描述掉落動作， 他還以為你問他 樹葉是不是變 crisp 了才掉落.



这一点你信口开河了吧？

我的提问是：
I wonder whether the word "*tumbling*" here must have the sense of being *crisp*?

针对的就是 tumbling这个动作、针对的就是这个动作是否一定包涵你所称的crisp意义，提问准确无误，而Copyright回答中肯切题。我专门把这个动（名）词加粗，这个路标如此清晰，Copyright不可能走入岔道。

   至于你说的”以為樹葉是不是變 crisp 了才掉落"，不正是你形容crisp "必須是 easily broken"? 这才是“樹葉變 crisp/easily broken 了才掉落”啊，怎么你推得一干二净、把帐算到Copyright的头上了？


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## Skatinginbc

你問， Copyright 回答：


Copyright said:


> No, not really...The leaves on our frangipani drop before they're crisp.



我看他誤解了，就提供原詩句，他便更改了答案：


Copyright said:


> In this case, I would suppose they are crisp. This line was not included in the original question and it shouldn't be necessary for us to read the poem to find out. We are allowed to quote up to four lines of poetry.



你的問法讓他誤解了.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> NewAmerica, 你知道為什麼Copyright重覆建議葉落時撞擊其他枝葉嗎？ 是因為 tumble 有 fall clumsily 的 connotation.  我不認為是飄逸的動作.



   说得象你是Copyright的肚里蛔虫似的。你不认为他意指 hit lightly? 树叶又轻、表面积又大，遇空气阻力当然只能 hit lightly 也就是飘逸的意思。 只有你认为他不懂常识，会认为树叶象小石头一样fall clumsily。


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## brofeelgood

看大家说得这么热闹，我也来掺一脚。

我觉得 '*crisp*' 表达的是这个意思: (crisp - definition of crisp in English | Oxford Dictionaries #2) 
- (of the weather) cool, fresh, and invigorating.
_- ‘a crisp autumn day’_

And I agree with retrogradedwithwind - '_it_' refers to that particular afternoon.

'_And note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves._' = '_And note the flights of leaves, which was a fresh and invigorating sight, on that afternoon_.'.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 你問， Copyright 回答：
> 
> 我看他誤解了，就提供原詩句，他便更改了答案：
> 
> 你的問法讓他誤解了.



 好，有进展。

 不管brofeelgood怎么解读crisp，你的解读前后就不一致：先是说“樹木閃耀, 因葉子翻筋斗栽了跟頭”；tumbling是“翻筋斗栽了跟頭”，那当然就有fall clumsily的意味，所以你生拉硬扯上Copyright，说他默认你的看法。接着你又强调tumbling是crisp；这crisp，论其味是爽脆，论其形是飘逸，跟我的解读基本一致了嘛。你在折腾啥？


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## retrogradedwithwind

brofeelgood said:


> '_And note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves._' = '_And note the flights of leaves, which was a fresh and invigorating sight, on that afternoon_.'.



Its 'flights of leaves'

this explanation is perfect.


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## 枫十二

前面那个tumbling leaves，我想象的画面是很多落叶轻轻地旋转到地上，虽然是在写动，实际上是为了突出静，以动写静。落叶轻轻地旋转下落给人一种和谐与安宁的感觉。这样与后面战争主题的对比才更加强烈。所以我并不愿意把这个crisp看成一种轻快的动，这与我想象的画面有差距。


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## Skatinginbc

the watered-down version of his "Beautiful Wall of America" ==> Which is watered-down?  A) he (i.e., Donald Trump), B) so-called "Beautiful Wall," C) America ==> Answer: B
the crisp variety of its flights of leaves ==> Which is crisp?  A) it (i.e., this afternoon), B) flights, C) leaves ==> Answer: B

Flight is a movement, and a crisp movement is quick and precise (e.g., a crisp movement of the hand that carried with it a brusque arrogance ==> "Crisp" corresponds to "brusque").
"Tumble," "flight," and "crisp" all carry the connotation of "swift".  My translation 翻筋斗栽了跟頭 was intended to imply a swift roll-and-fall (like the _crisp _fall of the grass under the scythe) and a lively, animated manner (生動活潑).  Unfortunately, it also carries a sense of "heaviness", which is unwanted.


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## 枫十二

看这儿


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## brofeelgood

Skatinginbc said:


> a *swift* roll-and-fall (like the _crisp _fall of the grass under the scythe)



This seems reasonable too. A 'crisp' movement is quick, short and sharp. A '_crisp flight of leaves_' would be one where the leaves are falling or swirling about in sharp movements.


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## 枫十二

Skatinginbc said:


> the watered-down version of his "Beautiful Wall of America" ==> Which is watered-down?  A) he (i.e., Donald Trump), B) so-called "Beautiful Wall," C) America ==> Answer: B
> the crisp variety of its flights of leaves ==> Which is crisp?  A) it (i.e., this afternoon), B) flights, C) leaves ==> Answer: B


我没看明白这想表达什么？


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## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> '_And note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves._' = '_And note the flights of leaves, which was a fresh and invigorating sight, on that afternoon_.'.


My interpretation is slightly different.  Grammatically speaking,
_I tried the sweet variety of their homemade sour cream cakes._ ==> They might have made several varieties of sour cream cakes.  I tried the sweet kind, not the other kinds.
'_And note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves._' ==> The leaves might have flown in various manners that afternoon, but I paid close attention only to the "crisp" (= brisk and lively) variety, not the other varieties, because I had "time for nothing but the endeavor to balance myself upon a broken world."
"_And note the flights of leaves_(_, which...,_)_ on that afternoon_" grammatically seems to imply that leaves all flew in the said fashion that afternoon.
Your _ invigorating _corresponds to my "lively."  It is invigorating to watch something lively.  I think we were talking about the same concept (生氣勃勃, 充滿生命活力).  In other words, I agree with you .


枫十二 said:


> 我没看明白这想表达什么？


I meant: "The crisp variety of its flights of leaves" structurally parallels "the watered-down version of his Beautiful Wall of America."  Just as "version" refers to a kind of wall, so does "variety" refer to a kind of flight.  Grammatically speaking, "crisp" modifies "variety", and therefore it is a "crisp flight."


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## 枫十二

现在我赞成轻快了：
note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves=>记录下今天下午落叶在天空中多变且轻快的飞舞。
=>收藏今天下午落叶轻快划过天空跳出的舞蹈


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## retrogradedwithwind

Skatinginbc said:


> _I tried the sweet variety of their homemade sour cream cakes._



也有可能所有varieties的蛋糕中都没有苦的，只是甜和更甜。

作者在这里应该只是从所有落叶中挑出轨迹更美的来，没有丑的。


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## 枫十二

retrogradedwithwind said:


> *挑出*轨迹*更*美


一直不知道note还有这个意思，受教了。
但我还是觉得不能译成这个, note的是 variety, 不是leaves吧


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 也有可能所有varieties的蛋糕中都没有苦的，只是甜和更甜。


I meant: They might (or might not) have made several varieties of sour cream cakes.  The sentence does not automatically exclude the possibility of other varieties.  By the same taken, "the crisp variety of its flights of leaves" does not exclude the possibility that some flights of leaves that day were not crisp.  However, the poet chose to ignore them because he wanted to focus on the bright side (i.e., to balance himself upon a broken world).


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## retrogradedwithwind

枫十二 said:


> 一直不知道note还有这个意思，受教了。
> 但我还是觉得不能译成这个, note的是 variety, 不是leaves吧


我没说note有挑出的意思，虽然可以在某些情况下理解出这个意思。note的应该是flights.



Skatinginbc said:


> I meant: They might (or might not) have made several varieties of sour cream cakes.  The sentence does not automatically exclude the possibility of other varieties.  By the same taken, "the crisp variety of its flights of leaves" does not exclude the possibility that some flights of leaves that day were not crisp.  However, the poet chose to ignore them because he wanted to focus on the bright side (i.e., to balance himself upon a broken world).



和bright对立的不是dark, 只是不那么bright. 整个世界都是美好的，只是有一些更美好。

作者所描述的下午，没有不美好的事物，一切都是美好的，只是有些更美好。作者以此和war对比，以在this afternoon和war之间取得平衡。

还有，作者是个女性。


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## 枫十二

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 我没说note有挑出的意思，虽然可以在某些情况下理解出这个意思。note的应该是flights.


这样说可能更好： note 的是 variety of flights


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 作者是个女性。


Oops!  I never paid attention to the author's name.  Yup, it is a she.


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 作者所描述的下午，没有不美好的事物


Really?  Then why did she say "*Today *(including this 下午) I can only gather it and put it into my lunch-box, for I have time for nothing but the endeavor to balance myself upon a broken world"?  Apparently, she could not at that moment enjoy it--a nice, beautiful day that most of us take for granted in a time of peace.  She actively looked for something good (as if carefully gathering red berries) "to balance herself", but she could only save it in her memory and wait until a later time when "there will be no war." There is unspoken melancholy or anxiety, which underlies the poem here and there.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Skatinginbc said:


> Really?  Then why did she say "*Today *(including this 下午) I can only gather it and put it into my lunch-box, for I have time for nothing but the endeavor to balance myself upon a broken world"?  Apparently, she could not at that moment enjoy it--a nice, beautiful day that most of us take for granted in a time of peace.  She actively looked for something good (as if carefully gathering red berries) "to balance herself", but she could only save it in her memory and wait until a later time when "there will be no war." There is unspoken melancholy or anxiety that underlies the poem here and there.



我发现我终于理解了你的思路……

你可能看到today不那么美好，所以觉得this afternoon也不美好，美好的背后隐藏着肮脏的一面。整首诗都在轮换表述美好和肮脏。

我来说说我的思路。
这是一首晚上写的诗，作者经历了一个美好的下午。在描述这个下午之后，作者用了一组对比，some day 和 to-day（我不知道为什么加连字符，或许是为了让today有两个重音以和some day对称？）。some day 是没有战争的，是对未来的期望，today当然是有有战争的，是对现实的描述。和some day时作者可以肆意回忆今天下午的美好不同，today只能屈从现实，努力balance herself。
这个下午是作为美好时光的象征而存在的，寄喻着作者对未来的期望和对现实的不满。这里的today，不是this day，而是now。按你说的，作者endevor to 发现这个下午的美好，那更不可能存在不美好。today中所存在的不美好不存在于这个下午。


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## Skatinginbc

作者所描繪的一張張瞬間的照片，不是單純的良辰美景， 而是像中表意的「意像」--含蓄暗示的「意」溶於明晰簡扼的「像」中.  那個初秋(September)的下午，是美的「像」，但作者的話語間卻隱藏焦慮失落的「意」.  再美的秋景，背後仍尾隨著寒冬，再好的下午，也擋不住夜晚的到臨.  楓紅秋色很美嗎？摘紅莓很有趣嗎？ 屋裡傳笑很幸福嗎？我在加拿大看慣了楓葉，摘慣了紅莓，常常忘了去欣賞他們的「美」.  作者正是要表達這個概念，說的其實都是生活中常見的.  他突然想記住這些美景, 保存起來. 為什麼？ 因為他害怕失去，所以現在懂得珍惜了.  美「像」的背後暗藏不安的「意」.


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## brofeelgood

Ok, I've just read the poem again, in its entirety, and rather slowly this time. In my mind, Ms. Lowell had metaphorically compared said afternoon to the red berries gathered by the boys, and even used sensory characteristics that typically applies to berries to portray it.

_'And turn it in my fingers_' (the same way one would turn or spin a berry in his fingers)
_'And remark the sweet taste of it upon my palate_' (sweet, like the taste of berries)
_'And note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves'_ (crisp berries = fresh and firm berries = 鲜脆的浆果)

All this is what she would have loved to do, had she been able to. But instead, she could '_only gather it, and put it into my lunch-box_', because it was impossible for her to enjoy herself on a nice autumn afternoon while the war ravaged on.

----

It wouldn't surprise me if the correlation to berries was the actual reason behind Ms. Lowell's choice of the word 'crisp'.  This, of course, is pure conjecture on my part. I don't think there's any meaningful insight to be gained by delving too deeply into a poem and splitting hairs word by word. Where poems are concerned, unless the interpretation comes from the poets themselves, any interpretive reading is as good as the next one. Ms. Lowell's intended theme is clear, as is her style of conveying it. And honestly, that's enough for me to appreciate and enjoy reading it.


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## Skatinginbc

I agree with you, Bro.  The word choice is inspired by berries.  I think it is designed to service multiple functions.  To be concise and use as few words as possible is a feature of imagism.


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## 枫十二

brofeelgood said:


> _'And *note* the crisp variety of its flights of leaves'_ (crisp berries = fresh and firm berries = 鲜脆的浆果


how do you understand that *note*, *note* is the problem for me to understand crisp variety as a taste.

I mentioned this in my thread in English forum, crisp variety.



枫十二 said:


> Then how can the tumbling of leaves feels like the bite of an apple?
> 
> Ah, I think I got it.
> this afternoon（memory） is so delicious, crisp ==>delicious.



no native gives me more comments


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## retrogradedwithwind

从this afternoon was三个词看就是写的当天下午，但我不觉得下午的美景中有不安。

Bro说，Where poems are concerned, unless the interpretation comes from the poets themselves, any interpretive reading is as good as the next one. Ms. Lowell's intended theme is clear, as is her style of conveying it. And honestly, that's enough for me to appreciate and enjoy reading it.

各自保留意见吧。我实在是觉得让一个一战中的美国人想到战争即将发生在美国本土有点不可能。


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## brofeelgood

枫十二 said:


> how do you understand that *note*, *note* is the problem for me to understand it as a taste.


_'And *note* the crisp variety of its flights of leaves'..._

In my opinion, '_note_' here bears a similar meaning to '_remark_' in the previous line. It's a verb that means '_to take notice of_'. (留意到/注意到)


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## 枫十二

brofeelgood said:


> _'And *note* the crisp variety of its flights of leaves'..._
> 
> In my opinion, '_note_' here bears a similar meaning to '_remark_' in the previous line. It's a verb that means '_to take notice of_'. (留意到/注意到)



Whether we understand crisp variety as a taste or a movement, it doesn't affect the understanding of the whole poem


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## Skatinginbc

作者只不過是說她會 note the crisp variety of its flights of leaves  如同她會 note the crisp variety of red berries. 兩者扯在一起是因為他們都給人 crisp 的感覺.  前者仍然指的是 movement.

該句字面意思大致是：留心那天下午那種___的秋葉飄落 (填空， 填的是一種 crisp 的感覺).

Candidates:
(1) 簌簌：吃脆蘋果紅蘿蔔會唼唼喀嚓響 (crunchy; 喀嚓: 東西斷裂的聲音). 落葉會蕭蕭瑟瑟 (蕭蕭: 形容落葉聲, 杜甫：無邊落木蕭蕭下，不盡長江袞袞來; 白居易: 潯陽江頭夜送客, 楓葉荻花秋瑟瑟). 簌簌: 形容細碎不斷的聲音, 紛紛墜下的樣子 (老殘遊記：樹上殘葉簌蔌落地，人面上冷氣稜稜地割).
(2) 來勁：咬起來硬(firm)得有勁，嘗起來鮮(fresh)得有勁(sharp, stimulating)，落葉落得有勁 (lively, vigorous)，滿街都是落葉.
(3) 有興趣者自己去想，這裡不討論了.

作者是意象派詩人，講究措辭經濟，簡單一個字表達很多感覺概念.  所以表的意是複選 (e.g., 那種簌簌來勁的秋葉飄落)，用的詞是單選 (e.g., 那種脆的秋葉飄落).


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## NewAmerica

诗的开首几句描绘的正是*纯美的景象，设为A*；
然后是作者的*思绪愁怀，意欲达成心理平衡，设为B*;
最后提及一个*破碎的世界，设为C*;

 这样得到一个简明的平衡方程：

（A+C）/2 = B

* 也就是用纯美的景象平衡破碎的世界，最后得到心理的平静。*

 Skating的问题在于分不清ABC，把它们一锅煮成了糊糊。


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## Skatinginbc

時代背景: 那是第一次世界大戰，第一次總是特別恐慌.  那時，美國早已加入戰爭.  那年的 September 全球遭受致命流行感冒，病死 40 millions, 差不多和參戰士兵人數相當.  美國本土將近 1/3 的人口患病，那是一個破碎的世界.


NewAmerica said:


> Skating的问题...


我的不是問題, 是一家說法.  剛剛找到一個分析 (for Grade 12 English class), 跟我的一模一樣:
"words such as _falling_, _tumbling_ and _dropped_ are all words that could possibly be associated to war. This can give the impression that maybe everything on the outside is fine and dandy but in reality deep down everything is not alright...she cannot enjoy anything because the war is all that her mind can think about."

討論這麼多是要回答樓主的 tumble.  Tumble 就是 tumble, 是往下落的，別翻得美上了天，否則像我上述的一家說法就無法存在了，剝削了詩的張力與深度.

這下午是水從陽光穿落的顏色, 樹林因葉兒翻滾跌落而閃爍, 人行道耀如鋪滿落楓的小徑, 跑在一旁的房舍開著方窗笑呵.


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## retrogradedwithwind

读了好几遍都无法从tumbling falling dropped里读出不美好来。。。我对这几个词理解不深吗？


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## Skatinginbc

不是你沒理解字句，作者原本就是要讀者專注於美好的事.  可是從她的用詞遣字裡，我們又不得不懷疑那是否只是表象.  譬如，the color of water falling through sunlight 看上去挺美，讓讀者充滿想像.  你說那像是彩虹的顏色.  可是你想過沒有，彩虹是陽光照射到水滴的反射與折射, 不是水 fall through (= fall and break through) 陽光 (陽光成了受詞，被 broken through).  有人說那是清藍色，像陽光照入大海 (again, 水成了受詞，與原文結構不同)，又有人說，那是瀑布穿破斜射的陽光，無論如何，「水破光而落的顏色」的說法特殊，若只一句也罷，連續三句都巧妙地塞進 fall 的概念，彷彿暗示著什麼.  這個「什麼」要看後半段才能理解.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 我的不是問題, 是一家說法.  剛剛找到一個分析 (for Grade 12 English class), 跟我的一模一樣:





> This can give the impression that maybe everything on the outside is fine and dandy but in reality deep down everything is not alright.
> Through the second stanza Lowell is constantly reminding herself that in a way the peaceful Autumn day in the first stanza is really just a dream because as long as there is war that peace cannot exist.



   What I have to point out is that the four lines (1), with which the poem gets started, are the artistic depiction of REALITY rather than DREAM. Only REALTY CAN BALANCE REALITY. This reality is heaven, while the war is hell. Both overlap （天堂与地狱是重叠的），which balances out each other.

   The analyser whose opinion you embraced is most likely a pessimist.

(1)
"This afternoon was the colour of water falling through sunlight;
The trees glittered with the tumbling of leaves;
The sidewalks shone like alleys of dropped maple leaves,
And the houses ran along them laughing out of square, open windows. "


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## Skatinginbc

我跟那人的分析是獨立進行的，是事後才發現所見略同.  我說一家說法，沒說那是唯一正確說法.  既然原文的用詞允許這樣的詮釋，那麼翻譯時就應忠於原文，tumble 就是 tumble,  不應為美化而作改變.  意象派詩人的用詞精準，稍做調整，便會失原意.


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## retrogradedwithwind

@Skatinginbc 是我真读不出来那一层意思，一点感觉没有。或者说，那层意思，于我来说，不是自然而然感觉到的，而是（被你们）硬分析出来的。我接受不了。

当然我不是说你们就是错的。或许个人感受不同。


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## Skatinginbc

季節是 fall (秋)，當然詩人會描述 fall (落)， 第一次讀那詩，雖馬上就注意到連續三個 fall 的概念，一時之間只覺得詩人的安排很特別，沒別的想法.  只感受到赤子眼中的 fairyland, 是正面的.  直到讀到後半段的 broken world 時，才恍然大悟.  因為前面已留過心，所以這時很自然就把 fall (秋)， fall (落)，crisp (脆，brittle), 和 broken world 的畫面聯結起來.  那種餘音繞樑、意象衝突的感受是讀到最後一個字才會有的，不是只讀前半段就感受得到的.

我怎麼注意到三 fall 連用而對其留心？
(1) 一般人會描述 陽光穿過水，而不是水破陽光而落.  作者說法新穎獨特.
(2) 一般人會描述 葉子「飄」落， 而不是 「跌」落 (tumble).
(3) 一般人會說滿地楓葉，滿地掉落的楓葉通是通，但前句已提到葉子掉落了，何必重複？ 講究精簡的詩若重複一個概念，必定是重要的概念，所以我就把 fall 放在心上了，繼續讀下去，等待詩人解釋其用意.  到最後，我得到了解釋，原來那是一個 broken world.

還有，詩的標題是 September, 提醒讀者那是 fall (秋).  詩人沒把 「希望」或「完美的下午」當成主旨而成標題. 作為標題的是 fall, 詩的結尾是 broken world.

因此，我讀後的感受是詩人意圖傳達一種焦慮與哀愁。 有這種感受的不是只有我一個, 譬如: Dr. J (威斯康辛一所大學的英語文學助理教授) 對此詩的評語: "Lowell has written a poem that definitely describes the particular circumstances of life during WWI, but that also relates to a greater_ sense of loss and melancholy_."  我覺得你們的翻譯過度美化了 tumble, 把這種感受的重要線索刪除, 這就是為什麼我不斷解釋翻譯此詩應該忠於原文.


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## retrogradedwithwind

我确实是读不出来啊……在我看来，追新求奇是所有诗人的本能，常见的景色用常见的词句写出来就是垃圾，毫无价值。（我不知道英美诗歌的传统，但以时间为题猜测应该挺常见的）

对falling tumbling 等词，或许是我英语水平所限，对这几个词理解不深，我确实读不出a greater sense of loss and melancholy. 这个真没办法。不知道你的那种理解普遍不。


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## Skatinginbc

追新求奇而無深意，那叫標新立異; 濃妝豔抹而無內涵，那叫庸脂俗粉. 此詩之美在於意境.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 最後，我得到了解釋，原來那是一個 broken world.
> 
> 還有，詩的標題是 September, 提醒讀者那是 fall (秋).  詩人沒把 「希望」或「完美的下午」當成主旨而成標題. 作為標題的是 fall, 詩的結尾是 broken world.
> 
> 因此，我讀後的感受是詩人意圖傳達一種焦慮與哀愁。 有這種感受的不是只有我一個, 譬如: Dr. J (威斯康辛一所大學的英語文學助理教授) 對此詩的評語: "Lowell has written a poem that definitely describes the particular circumstances of life during WWI, but that *also *relates to a greater_ sense of loss and melancholy_."  我覺得你們的翻譯過度美化了 tumble, 把這種感受的重要線索刪除, 這就是為什麼我不斷解釋翻譯此詩應該忠於原文.



   Skating 有意或者无意忽略了该诗的第四行：
   And the houses ran along them laughing out of square, open windows.
   这一行，使作者描绘的纯美画卷中人们的欢乐心境洋溢其上、呼之欲出！这美丽的时光，哪怕是一瞬都是永恒的，作者愿意把它牢牢地记在心里。

   至此，相信读者会恍然大悟：原来Dr.J所说的“the particular circumstances of life” 当指 “the beautiful circumstances of joyful life." 所以Dr.J接着用了”also"这个词，指明作者在描绘纯美画境的同时，又提及了破碎的世界，从而在天堂与地狱之间作了巧妙的艺术平衡。

   如前所述，Skating擅长煮糊糊而不亦乐乎。


Skatinginbc said:


> 追新求奇而無深意，那叫標新立異; 濃妝豔抹而無內涵，那叫庸脂俗粉. 此詩之美在於意境.



你把该诗意境归结为“以愁为主”，这叫失之偏颇。


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## retrogradedwithwind

标新立异和深意不矛盾，浓妆艳抹和内涵也不矛盾。风格不同罢了。对于我来说，这诗的意境……也就那样……

我觉得咱们所有人都可以就此打住了。


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## Skatinginbc

討論的宗旨是 tumble 的翻譯, 不是在爭誰對整首詩的詮釋才是「正確」的.  我前面已說過了，該詩的第一段，作者要讀者專注於美好的一面 (#62)，我讀時的感受也是正面的 (#66).  但我認為前三句美好畫面的背景，必須都是 falling (影射一個 falling apart 的世界).  把 tumble 翻成中文必須要有 falling 的概念.   為了解釋這個概念的重要, 才囉囉嗦嗦地討論到個人詮釋該詩的過程.  我的目的不是要你們放棄自己的詮釋，而是要強調我們的翻譯必須要有「張力」或「包容力」，要像原文一樣允許我這樣的詮釋.

葉子的 tumbling (falling) 是以怎樣的 fashion 呢？ 這會關係到我們翻譯 tumble 時的選詞，所以我討論了 crisp.  該字給我的感覺是帶「勁」的，是有聲的，是脆，易折的.  在我腦中的畫面是 falling down in large numbers.  是樹木迅速落掉葉子.

我給的第一個翻譯建議不好，多出「重」的感覺.  我給的第二個建議雖忠於原文，但不夠美.

你們有更好的建議就提出來，這才是重點.


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## NewAmerica

Skatinginbc said:


> 討論的宗旨是 tumble 的翻譯, 不是在爭誰對整首詩的詮釋才是「正確」的……


 
   讨论的真正宗旨在于遵循版规基础上的*切题（On Topic*)。而楼主提出的主题Topic是（为了让Skating看得一清二楚，我把楼主的完整帖子拷贝如下）：如何翻译"The trees glittered with the tumbling of leaves"这个句子。

  而翻译常识是：要准确翻译一个句子，只有在把握整首诗的意趣的基础上才有可能。

  所以说Skating的“討論的宗旨是 tumble 的翻譯, 不是在爭誰對整首詩的詮釋才是「正確」的”见解，恰恰正是他煮糊糊的结果：不得要领。



Kupaturel said:


> I was wondering how to translate this sentence:
> 
> "The trees glittered with the tumbling of leaves."
> 
> It's part of the poem 'September, 1918' by Any Lowell that I'm doing a project on.
> 
> Thank you!


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## Skatinginbc

我是說，我們之所以討論這麼多，主要是對 tumble 的詮釋有歧見，我們一直繼續討論的目的(宗旨), 是要化解這個歧見，或是分享各家觀點.
底下的翻譯除了紅色部分，都不會引起多大爭議：
「伴随着叶子摇晃, 树在闪闪发亮」
「树林闪烁, 树叶飘舞」
「樹林因葉兒滾落而閃爍」


NewAmerica said:


> “以愁为主”，这叫失之偏颇。


"a greater sense of loss and melancholy"_ ==> _greater: 比較級, 與前者比較


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## retrogradedwithwind

对某个词的理解和对全篇的理解，显然是互相促进的。讨论讨论也挺好。

对我来说，难点在于我怎么使劲也理解不到前几句中的负面因素，理解不到loss and melancholy behind beauty。（英语水平确实是限制，tumble还熟点，crisp 绝对不是我的active word，我感觉不到声/脆/易折。）

如果一定要加上falling的感觉，可以译为“摇跌”。


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## NewAmerica

该诗写于1918年9月（实际上更迟？），2个月后世界大战即宣告结束（也就是说作者创作时，美军胜利捷报频传；9月29日德军总司令给德皇威廉二世的信中称德军已经毫无希望——一次世界大战实际上正是以德国彻底失败告终！）美国人民的由衷喜悦不言而喻。战后包括抗生素学在内的现代医学突飞猛进。作者以大部分篇幅来描述美景与欢乐是完全可以理解的。



Skatinginbc said:


> 時代背景: 那是第一次世界大戰，第一次總是特別恐慌.  那時，美國早已加入戰爭.  那年的 September 全球遭受致命流行感冒，病死 40 millions, 差不多和參戰士兵人數相當.  美國本土將近 1/3 的人口患病，那是一個破碎的世界.





Skatinginbc said:


> "a greater sense of loss and melancholy"_ ==> _greater: 比較級, 與前者比較



  这可能表明Dr.J是个悲观主义者，他的悲观影响了他对诗意的正确判断。


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## Skatinginbc

crisp:
1. 易折: dry, hard, and easily broken
2. 有聲: making a sharp sound when crushed
3. 有勁: bracing, invigorating; lively, sprightly
4. 迅速: moving quickly and directly
影像：清涼乾燥的天氣；樹葉紛紛像下雨般迅速掉落，可聽到枯枝折斷和落葉摩擦的聲音

加拿大的落葉有時真像下雨一樣，前一天還好好的，隔天滿地落葉，樹木只剩光禿禿的枝幹.  來得很突然.  這種突兀或許是那個 tumble (fall suddenly) 的含義之一.


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 我怎么使劲也理解不到前几句中的负面因素


該詩前半段 (lines 1-8)，作者要讀者專注美好的一面, 營造的氣氛是 carefree innocence 和 peaceful bliss; 後半段 (lines 9–18) 表明的態度是 troubled but hopeful; 整首詩的題材是美好下午和戰爭現實間的對比--這些都是顯而易見的, 白得不能再白, 毫無異義.  有爭議的是作者在前半段是否留下蛛絲馬跡，暗示了 broken world (falling apart) .  不管你認為有沒有，我的論點是原文的確可以如此分析，因此不能翻得過分完美 (譬如：今天下午是彩虹的顏色 ==> 把原文的 falling 代換掉了；下一句：樹葉飄舞 ==> 又把 falling 的涵義刪除掉了).  當然，還有爭議的是對整首詩的感受，在腦中餘音繞樑的是什麼, 認不認為那天下午的美好只是表相.  這依讀者而異，沒必要爭，我就不再討論了.


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## retrogradedwithwind

一夜树叶落尽的景象还不算太罕见。尤其有的时候，突然发现叶子全没了，而昨天似乎还好好的。这种对比的感觉是很强烈的，让人突然觉得冬天到了。

肯定不会译为彩虹般的颜色，那已经是解读了。

今天下午是水落下阳光的颜色；
树在闪亮，随着枝叶跌摇；
人行道照耀着，就像坠落枫叶的小巷；

..讨论到这吧。


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## 枫十二

刚才又读了一遍这首诗，还把大家的观点都看了了一遍。我觉得，作者是以小孩的视角创作了整首诗。这样才能解释：水穿过了阳光，树叶翻跟斗，房子在欢笑。小女孩看到的是一副充满欢声笑语的美景，是一个值得珍藏的下午，是一个舍不得“吃”的下午，却也是一个没时间“品尝”的下午，一个没办法平衡自己的下午。小女孩现在很难平衡自己的原因是战争，作者用战争和支离破碎的世界收尾，就是想让世人思考这个战争横行、支离破碎的世界。

一个是欢声笑语的童真世界
一个是战争横行的破碎世界

作者就是想通过这个反差剧烈的对比引发人们的思考。
参见 And the houses ran along them laughing out of square, open windows.链接后半部分还谈到了一些其他的想法，我英文能力有限，也很懒，再读读这首诗还行，但是要去对lowell的人生刨根问底，我暂时还没这兴趣。


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## 枫十二

还是译一下我对最后那三句的理解：

For I have time for nothing
But the endeavour to balance myself
Upon a broken world

1.
我现在没有时间做其他事
只能努力地平衡自己
在这支离破碎的世界

1是很普通的理解

2.
我所拥有的时间不能（浪费）在其他事
只能（用在）平衡自己所做的努力
在这支离破碎的世界

2有点像读福尔摩斯，作者把这层意思藏在最后三句里，作者不仅仅想说我现在要平衡自己很困难，其实他还想说我现在所做的努力是多么的伟大。

在这支离破碎的世界里，我平衡自己所做的努力比起眼前的美景更美，我沉醉在我的努力里，没有时间来欣赏眼前的一切。

在lowel的介绍里有propagadist这个词，现在这个词更加的贬义，当时应该是个中性词。不管他是中性词还是贬义词，他都改变了我对此3句的看法。我现在仍然觉得2很有可能。
我所理解的propagadist就是通过言论引导世人看法，对世界的认知很超前的精英，他们通过自己的作品来唤醒世人，甚至为国家服务。前不久印度Aamir Khan的电影Dangal就是很典型的代表，只是Aamir Khan传递的全是正能量，我并不想把Aamir Khan和lowel并列在一起，我觉得两个人完全不在同一个世界，举Aamir Khan是想说每个国家都有超人。联系当时1战的大背景，虽然这是战争，可是鹬蚌相争渔翁得利，这绝对是美国大好的机会，而美国人民并没有太多意愿参站。没有一战二战，哪来美国现在在世界上的统治地位？这首诗潜移默化地在改变美国人对战争的态度,为国家服务。

文字的力量好可怕，怪不得我们也有鲁迅先生要弃医从文。在我看来，这很可能不是一首单纯的诗，我对它的评分从10分降到8分，但愿它是一首单纯的好诗。

最后还是想说一句给贴主，到现在都一句不吭，这很不地道！


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## NewAmerica

世之支离兮，
   吾心何依？
   撷取英华兮，
   以慰生平！

  -The End-


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