# Prepositions at the end



## crom

Hi people,

In another thread I was said that grammarians don't accept prepositions at the end. For example if I want to say "*¿Con quien vas a salir?*" it's better to say "*With whom are you going?*" than "*Who are you going with?*", isn't it?
Now, if I want to say "*¿Para que quieres esto?*", what should I say? "*What do you want this for?*" or "*For what do you want this?*" or there is another way?

thank you
crom
"Please, correct me"


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## rainbow

According to my huumble knowledges the correct question is:

"What do you want this for?"

Regards.


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## Phryne

crom said:
			
		

> Hi people,
> 
> In another thread I was said that grammarians don't accept prepositions at the end. For example if I want to say "*¿Con quien vas a salir?*" it's better to say "*With whom are you going?*" than "*Who are you going with?*", isn't it?
> Now, if I want to say "*¿Para que quieres esto?*", what should I say? "*What do you want this for?*" or "*For what do you want this?*" or there is another way?
> 
> thank you
> crom
> "Please, correct me"



Maybe grammarians don't like the prepositions at the end, but that's they way people speak. 

_Who are you going out with? What do you want this for?_ 

I promise I'll give some money away if I hear somebody saying in a non-academic environment, "_With whom are you going out?_


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## VenusEnvy

For all those viewing, this is what was said:


			
				crom said:
			
		

> ¿Lo siguiente sería correcto? "Who are you going with?"
> 
> crom





			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Grammarians say that you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.   But, in colloquial language, people often do.
> So, the correct way to say this would be: "With whom are you going?"


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## VenusEnvy

rainbow said:
			
		

> According to my huumble knowledges the correct question is:
> "What do you want this for?"


Right, Crom.   
This would be the correct way to say it: "For what do you want this?"


Side Note: Phryne is right though. People don't always follow these rules in everyday language.


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## cristóbal

Yeah, in fact, (close your ears, hardcore English grammarians), I would recommend that you learn the "correct" way and then put it off to the side.. use it when you're writing formally.  But, in normal speech, don't ever say "For what do you want this?"  "With whom are you going?"... just don't... No one says it that way, and there's no reason that you should... it will just peg you as a foreigner right away... or a very anal grammatician.  

By the way... is it grammatician or grammarian?


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## Phryne

cristóbal said:
			
		

> By the way... is it grammatician or grammarian?



The word I know, heard and use is _grammarian_. _Grammatician _is not even in my dictionary!


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## cristóbal

No, it's not in mine either... humm... but I've heard both.  In fact, I like "grammatician" more... I suppose it is related to mathematician.  But then it would have to be grammatics... Oh well. I got 300 results on Google for grammatician, apparently there are some other confused souls out there just like me.


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## Like an Angel

Then if this is wrong "*What do you want this for?*" and this is right "*For what do you want this?*" why I was taught as the first one?,  weird!


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## cristóbal

Like an Angel said:
			
		

> Then if this is wrong "*What do you want this for?*" and this is right "*For what do you want this?*" *why I was taught as the first one?*,  weird!



(te he corregido un pelín)

Well, the simple reason is because the "first one" is the most used--to the point that most people think that it is correct.

Inglés tiene muchos ejemplos de esto--y creo que dentro de poco, se considerará correcto... es que la lengua es definida por los que la hablan y si hasta la gente culta se utiliza esta forma, bueno, que así sea y que nos olvidemos de la otra.


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## Like an Angel

cristóbal said:
			
		

> (te he corregido un pelín)


 
¡Muchas gracias por la corrección! , la verdad es que no se si es bueno eso de tener una "Real Academia de..." o hacer lo que ustedes hacen, en fin


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## cristóbal

Pues si quieres mi opinión... creo que la Academia, por más liberal y abierta que sea, crea un ambiente que no es bueno para un idioma.  Un idioma no es más que la manera de expresarse de un grupo de gente.  Yo creo que, y espero que no sea muy presumido decirlo, el inglés es un idioma tan importante en este mundo por su flexibilidad--y no solamente por imperios, política, y economía... y una 'academia' solamente va a hacer que la flexibilidad sea, como mínimo, una cosa muy difícil de alcanzar.
Pero bueno... "eso de tener una Real Academia de..." no es mala cosa en sí mismo... lo que pasa es que cuando la Academia esa siempre tiene la última palabra (o sea, que cuando se la da la gente), pues esto estorba mucho el proceso de la evolución de la lengua y de repente la lengua se convierte en una oligarquía y no la democracia totalmente pura que debe ser.  Pero ¿qué estoy haciendo ahora?, metiendo la política en esto de los idiomas!!  Uy... qué lío.

Yo, personalmente, culparía a la Academia por la fobia que tienen los españoles de incluir palabras de otros idiomas (sobre todo inglés) en su propio idioma.


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## Like an Angel

Creo que tu opinión le gustaría mucho a Artis -debo reconocer que en parte a mí también- en el hilo "Reforma Ortográfica???" , ¡Gracias por brindárnosla!


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## cristóbal

Ya, pero por otras razones yo no estoy de acuerdo de nada con nuestra querida Artis.


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## duder

See also: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html#preposition

Sometimes ending a sentence with a preposition sounds bad, but in general the examples from this thread that end with prepositions are the most common versions and by trying to avoid doing so you sound overly formal and/or obsessive.

However, there is one sentence that I think most people would recommend avoiding, despite the fact that it is fairly common these days:

Where are you (where is he/she/it) *at*?

Besides ending with a preposition, it is redundant. I think that people sometimes forget that last part and find fault with the fact that "at" is a preposition, causing them to complain about the usage in general.


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## cristóbal

> However, there is one sentence that I think most people would recommend avoiding, despite the fact that it is fairly common these days:
> 
> Where are you (where is he/she/it) at?
> 
> Besides ending with a preposition, it is redundant. I think that people sometimes forget that last part and find fault with the fact that "at" is a preposition, causing them to complain about the usage in general.



Haha, don't say that to anyone from New Orleans!
"Where y'at?"


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## jacinta

It would be nice to state our location in the U.S. in our profiles.  There are so many regionalisms in our language that it would be interesting to know where someone is and where the information is coming *from*.  (There's one of those rascals!)  I know that using *at* at the end of sentences is common everywhere but I didn't know it was strictly enforced in New Orleans!  I personally hate hearing it.  Sorry!


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## charmedboi82

crom said:
			
		

> Hi people,
> 
> In another thread I was said that grammarians don't accept prepositions at the end. For example if I want to say "*¿Con quien vas a salir?*" it's better to say "*With whom are you going?*" than "*Who are you going with?*", isn't it?
> Now, if I want to say "*¿Para que quieres esto?*", what should I say? "*What do you want this for?*" or "*For what do you want this?*" or there is another way?
> 
> thank you
> crom
> "Please, correct me"



Your two ways of saying it are fine.  Use the preposition at the end of the sentence for most cases so you don't sound out of place, but do realize that it's more formal to put the preposition at the beginning of the sentence.  Also, you could say "Why do you want this?"  All three options are somewhat ambiguous and all three could mean por/para que quieres esto?  "For" is quite ambiguous in English, whereas it's not so ambiguous in Spanish.


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## crom

duder said:
			
		

> See also: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/nonerrors.html#preposition


Thanks all the people.
This page is very interesting, duder. I'll have a look.

crom
"Plase, correct me"


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## Tadeo

Hi!!!

After a post in wich we discussed about this, i read some articles and now I am confused than before!!!

In formal written english:

Questions are not ment to begin with a preposition and sentences (+ or -) are not ment to end with a preposition either???

Or is it the other way around???
Thanks for your help.


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## Loob

Some - old-fashioned - grammarians say you shouln't finish a sentence with a preposition.


But - in speech - everyone does:  "What is that for?"  And it is more and more acceptable in writing.... 


Loob


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## Mr. Bear

A question can easily begin with a preposition:
"By what means do you intend to accomplish your goal?"

"With what means do you intend to accomplish your goal?"

A proper sentence, however, may not end with a preposition.  It is extremely common to hear it done so, but it is not technically correct.  The proper construction can sometimes lead to statements that sound funny, precisely because it is so common to do it incorrectly.

I'm reminded of an old (unproven) story that was told about Winston Churchill in which he was alleged to have said something like, "There are some things up with which I will not put."  What makes the story humorous is that you would never, ever hear anyone say it that way.  They would invariably proceed to break the rule and put the "with" at the end.


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## Ms Missy

Loob said:


> Some - old-fashioned - grammarians say you shouln't finish a sentence with a preposition.
> 
> 
> *But - in speech - everyone does:* "What is that for?" *And it is more and more acceptable in writing....*
> 
> 
> Loob


 
hmmm... Where did you get that information _from_?  Where can I find this new rule _at_?


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## efu

en mi cole nos enseňan que la preposición en el principio es incorrecta
tenemos que escribir todo así: who are you talking *with* ?
pero no sé si debe ser así porque aquí los profesores no saben nada


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## organist

I think it's fair to say that for questions it's now extremely common to end the phrase with a preposition. As noted already, sometimes a question that avoids the preposition at the end sounds fairly unnatural. Compare:

"Where do you come from?"; with

"From where do you come?".

Even in positive phrases it is common for English speakers to put the preposition at the end. Compare:

"Peter is the friend I went to the cinema with"; and

"Peter is the friend with whom I went to the cinema".

I tend to use the latter construction but I am in a minority in England. It probably sounds a bit "culto".

As well as the famous alleged Churchill quote there is also a famous joke from the USA:

_Man: Where do you come from?_

_Harvard Graduate: I come from a place where it is not necessary to end a sentence in a preposition._

_Man: OK, so - where do you come from, arsehole?_


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## Tadeo

Ms Missy said:


> hmmm... Where did you get that information _from_?  Where can I find this new rule _at_?




Ms Missy, would you say that we have to abide by the grammar rule, and avoiding writting the preposition at the end??? Does that apply for both questions and  statements???

As efu, and Loob said that rule seems to  be changing; is tha becoming acceptable in standard english or is it that veryday our english teachers are less familiar with grammar rules ???


Thank you.


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## Doubter

Excellent comments and a better ending, organist


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## organist

I forgot to mention that the Churchill phrase sounds funny because the verb "to put up with" is a phrasal verb (soportar? in Spanish) and, as such, sounds extremely strange when the word order is changed to "up with which I will not put". It's very difficult to use this phrasal verb without ending the sentence with a preposition. In this regard, a previous poster is correct when he says that, in spoken English, ending a sentence with a preposition is more common than in written English. Spoken English is more likely to use a phrasal verb (often with a preposition) than written English. I might say "to put up with" but I would write "to tolerate".


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## Tadeo

So what can we conclude???

Shall I respect the grammar rule when using very formal english or is the rule becoming obsolete even in a formal context???

Nice joke by the way!!!
put up with= soportar, tolerar, or aguantar (a situation or condition) depending on the country.


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## organist

I think it's difficult to conclude anything on this topic but I think that if you were writing something formal you would probably want to avoid phrasal verbs and ending sentences with prepositions. 

When I, an English native, write formally I do not end sentences in prepositions unless those sentences are also questions. 

When I speak I usually try to avoid ending affirmations with prepositions. But, as I've already said, I'm in a minority in England.


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## Loob

Tadeo, I would say:

*in speech, put the prepositions at the end

*in writing, think of your audience and the context. If it's a very formal piece of writing (a petition to the Queen), stick with the old rule. If it's less formal, but may be read by someone who still thinks the old rule is correct (a university essay) then stick with the old rule unless it makes the sentence awkward; if it's a letter to a friend, avoid the old rule like the plague.

So, if your teachers are still teaching the old rule, stick with it in anything you write for them! 

Loob


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## unicito

> POSICIÓN DE LAS PREPOSICIONES
> Generalmente, se colocan delante del sustantivo o del pronombre, excepto en los siguientes casos:
> a.) Con el pronombre relativo, cuando va seguido de preposición, ésta puede colocarse en la posición final.
> *The girls I study with* / _Las muchachas con las que estudio_ (en lugar de: The girls with whom I study)
> b.) En frases interrogativas cuando empiezan por un pronombre interrogativo:
> *Who were you speaking to?* / _¿con quién estabas hablando?_ (en lugar de: To whom were you speaking?)
> Tomado de la mansiondelingles


 
Ustedes no se han referido a estas reglas o sera que no tienen que ver con este tema?


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## alumnisimo

As everyone here realizes language is a growing and evolving being and as suggested before old style teachers have rigidly clung to the rule that we ought not conclude a sentence with a preposition. We do this more and more with the passage of time. I love the following sentence uttered by Winston Churchill more than a half a century ago when asked what he thought about this linguistic  taboo. 
In ridicule he said something like this: "The dangling preposition is something up with which I will not put". 

For students of English the verb actually is to put up with meaning to tolerate.
Imagine being able to save the world and also have a sense of humor.


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## Loob

> Imagine being able to save the world and also have a sense of humor.


 

LOL!

Loob


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## pfister

Loob said:


> Some - old-fashioned - grammarians say you shouln't finish a sentence with a preposition.
> 
> Loob


 
I'm not an old-fashioned grammarian. I'm just an average American, but I do try to use my native language correctly and I don't end a statement with a preposition.

There are good reasons for many of the grammar rules and when we start to throw them out we will lose some of the fundamental bases of our language.


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## Loob

That's your choice, pfister!

But I'm curious!  Do you really say "For what is that?" instead of "What is that for?"

Loob


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## Loob

Sorry to press the point pfister: but a second question: do you really say "the girls with whom I studied" rather than "the girls I studied with"?

All the best

Loob


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## pfister

I sometimes forget because we hear bad grammar all around us, but I do try to speak correctly.

I hope you didn't take my comment wrong. I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad; I just wanted those who are learning English to know that there are many who do follow the rule that was mentioned.
 I appreciate this site because proper use of language is encouraged.


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## alumnisimo

pfister said:


> I sometimes forget because we hear bad grammar all around us, but I do try to speak correctly.
> 
> I hope you didn't take my comment wrong. I wasn't trying to make anyone feel bad; I just wanted those who are learning English to know that there are many who do follow the rule that was mentioned.
> I appreciate this site because proper use of language is encouraged.



I agree that we should always support and even applaud proper grammar. I do have a question however. Since language is a living entity and ever changing why would our sole role be that of conserving the staus quo? I ain't say'n that we gotta talk like lazy like. But whatawe do cuando se da de alazo y te pasa en restaurán y te cuachelanga la idea. Do you go with the flow?


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## Ms Missy

*Re: That's your choice, pfister!

But I'm curious! Do you really say "For what is that?" instead of "What is that for?"  AND:*

*Sorry to press the point pfister: but a second question: do you really say "the girls with whom I studied" rather than "the girls I studied with"? *

*I think one point we might be overlooking here is the fact that those among us who try to avoid using prepositions at the end of sentences, will use a different set of words to convey the same thought.  So it isn't as though the only words to convey the thought of girls participating in a study group would have to be EITHER "the girls with whom I studied" OR  "the girls I studied with."  

Just a thought ... 


*


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## jacinta

This has been discussed thoroughly before, (always with disagreement), but you will have to search "prepositions" to see old threads.


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