# An in-depth thread on passato remoto



## moodywop

_Split from here _

I'll write in English so everyone can follow this interesting debate. A few points:

1. I have a splitting headache, otherwise I would start two new threads now. Two issues have come up that both deserve their own threads:

_(first issue in the original thread)_

(ii) We need an in-depth thread on _*questo benedetto passato remoto*_ 
We're all agreed that it's hardly ever used in spoken Italian, esp. in the North. I would argue that *even in spoken Italian* it's the only possible tense in (i) telling fairy tales (ii) talking of historical events (iii) talking about the lives of dead authors/public figures/greatgreatgrand...s . In written Italian it is of course *widely used in fictional writing. So let's not tell learners they do not need to learn it.*
For a language to lose a tense all of a sudden is like a person losing a limb. You have to re-adjust. Could the loss of this tense in spoken Italian have caused the uncertainty between using the past and the past perfect?

2.* Regional variation*. According to textbooks the present perfect is rarely used *in speech* in the North (except for the specific cases I mentioned above), it is used more in the South but is losing ground there as well and Tuscan usage is halfway between Northern and Southern usage. Can Tuscan members confirm this?



			
				Isapaola said:
			
		

> In south Italy probably they would say: Diedi le lettere e lei ha promesso.....


 
i) No Southern Italian would mix the two tenses in this incongruous way. As a Southerner, I would never presume I can speak authoritatively about usage in, say, Monfalcone (even though I have friends there).

ii) Usage is not homogeneous in the South. My guess is that the past tense is more often used for very recent events in Sicily but I'll leave it to Sicilian forer@s to comment on that. I wouldn't be surprised if many Sicilians would use the present perfect when speaking Italian where they would use the past tense in their dialect. My Sicilian friends living here confirm this.
My personal use is a perfect example of the uncertain status of the past tense in Campania (I can't speak for the whole South). My use is - to be frank -* inconsistent.*

Well, I now see there is enough fodder for three, not two threads. Of course many members who could provide their precious input are away on holiday so we'll have to wait till September to get a fuller picture.

Finally, please forgive my bluntness but do other forer@s (whether learners or natives - and apart from Brian ) find these topics interesting or too advanced? They are not dealt with adequately in any of the available textbooks so this is a unique opportunity for them to find out about real usage. I would also rather discuss them here at IE than at SI.

Your opinions?


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## Alfry

moodywop said:


> (ii) We need an in-depth thread on _*questo benedetto passato remoto*_
> We're all agreed that it's hardly ever used in spoken Italian, esp. in the North. I would argue that *even in spoken Italian* it's the only possible tense in (i) telling fairy tales (ii) talking of historical events (iii) talking about the lives of dead authors/public figures/greatgreatgrand...s . In written Italian it is of course *widely used in fictional writing. So let's not tell learners they do not need to learn it.*
> For a language to lose a tense all of a sudden is like a person losing a limb. You have to re-adjust. Could the loss of this tense in spoken Italian have caused the uncertainty between using the past and the past perfect?
> 
> 2.* Regional variation*. According to textbooks the present perfect is rarely used *in speech* in the North (except for the specific cases I mentioned above), it is used more in the South but is losing ground there as well and Tuscan usage is halfway between Northern and Southern usage. Can Tuscan members confirm this?


I couldn't agree more  except with the Tuscan confirmation because I'm not Tuscan, though my grandfather was Tuscan.



moodywop said:


> i) No Southern Italian would mix the two tenses in this incongruous way. As a Southerner, I would never presume I can speak authoritatively about usage in, say, Monfalcone (even though I have friends there).


I wouldn't either, and I was born and raised in the the deep South of Italy.
I must admit that I sometimes have difficulties speaking when I come back home after a hard day of work but that doesn't depend on my "Southern roots".



moodywop said:


> ii) Usage is not homogeneous in the South. My guess is that the past tense is more often used for very recent events in Sicily but I'll leave it to Sicilian forer@s to comment on that. I wouldn't be surprised if many Sicilians would use the present perfect when speaking Italian where they would use the past tense in their dialect. My Sicilian friends living here confirm this.
> My personal use is a perfect example of the uncertain status of the past tense in Campania (I can't speak for the whole South). My use is - to be frank -* inconsistent.*
> 
> Your opinions?


This is my simple opinion as you kindly asked


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## Manuel_M

When I started to learn the language - forty years ago(!) - we were always told to use the _passato remoto_ for past actions which had not occurred quite recently. It was only later, through television programmes , that I discovered that in every-day use, Italians tended to use the _passato prossimo_ for a wide vatiety of degrees of "past". 

You put into perspective the rule of thumb that the more south you go, the greater the likelihood that people will use _passato remoto._ I find your your explanation about the lack of uniformity in the use of _passato remoto_ quite intriguing. Am I correct in assuming that the younger generation, who would be more exposed to widespread use of "mainstream" (for want of a more correct term) Italian would tend to use it less than adults? Possibly your own "inconsistency" is also due to the fact that you have been exposed to 2 currents: a traditional one and a more modern one through your studies etc.

I find these topics fascinating. Carlo, you are a never-ending source of informative, stimulating and thought-provoking posts. This forum is much the richer for your contributions.


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## moodywop

Manuel said:
			
		

> Am I correct in assuming that the younger generation, who would be more exposed to widespread use of "mainstream" (for want of a more correct term) Italian would tend to use it less than adults? Possibly your own "inconsistency" is also due to the fact that you have been exposed to 2 currents: a traditional one and a more modern one through your studies etc.


 
Yes, Manuel, your assumption is correct but it's more complex than that. 

In Campania, unfortunately*, the use of the dialect increases exponentially the further you go down (for want of a better terminology) the social/educational ladder. 
People like me, who were forbidden to speak dialect at home and at school (by the nuns), have always had standard Italian as our primary language. However hard I may try, I will always speak Neapolitan as if it were a foreign language (although it's closer to my heart and my DNA than any foreign language, including English, will ever be - my grandparents spoke Neapolitan to me while holding me on their lap).

On the other hand, people whose Italian is more influenced by the dialect make a subtle distinction between the passato remoto and prossimo that I have never mastered. 

A dialogue I overheard between my principal and one of the administrative staff, an elderly Neapolitan woman:

- Signora X, non mi ha portato le circolari che le avevo chiesto.
- Preside, *ve *(notice *ve *instead of *glie, which is what I would have used*) le ho lasciate sulla scrivania sabato...(thinks)...ah! Volete (instead of *vuole* - again, what I would use) dire _quelle _circolari! Ve le *diedi *l'anno scorso.

Let's say that the younger generations, esp. middle/upper-middle class ones, tend to use only the passato prossimo.

Any Sicilians, Calabresi etc around? I'm curious to hear about the situation in other Southern regions...

* This is ambiguous. I obviously mean it's sad that the dialect is not used by *all *social classes and that it is seen as a "social marker"


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## Paulfromitaly

Two little comments:
1.  Of course youger generations tend to always use the _passato prossimo_ instead of the _passato remoto_: it's so much easier and they don't need to remember (probably they don't even know) about irregular forms, whereas 30 years ago people had no choice because grammar was still widely taught;

2.  In my dialect (Bresciano) the _passato remoto_ doesn't even exist and this could be one more good reason to justify the almost absolute absence of this verb tense also when we (Bresciani) speak Italian.


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## moodywop

A comment which is interesting, controversial, generous and flattering to us Southerners - made by a forero from Milan in a previous thread:



> Simple past (passato remoto) should be used as in English, so that it should be "ieri mangiai una mela"
> Unfortunately current Italian is being "led" by bad grammar habits of Northern Italian people (I am one of them  ) so that instead of using passato remoto we're mostly using passato prossimo (present perfect) to render such a phrase "ieri ho mangiato una mela"...and that's wrong!
> Please notice that Southern Italian people still use tenses correctly


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## Paulfromitaly

I've just heard Carlo Azeglio Ciampi saying:

*Ebbi un malore ieri, ma oggi sto molto meglio.*


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## claudine2006

I'm from the South but I know I use the *passato remoto* less than I should.
Like in English, when the action is finished and it's not related to the present, we'd use passato remoto.
Ieri andai ad un concerto.
But when I speak I say:
Ieri sono andata ad un concerto.
When I write I'm more careful.


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## hannah sue

I'm from Tuscany, and am living in Milan since the beginning of the year. It's funny, but I had this same conversation with some friends from Milan just the other day. We were talking about Tiziano Terzani, and I mentioned hearing a long interview about a year ago on Radio Popolare, and my friend from Milan said "Ah, sì, quando è morto", which sounded odd, because I would have said "Ah, sì, quando morì" (=quando morì Tiziano Terzani, Radio Popolare trasmise una vecchia intervista). So we launched into a lengthy discussion on  the passato remoto, and my friends from Milan assured me that they don't use at all, (and might have started using it a bit since hanging around with us from Pisa!). I also suggested a far-fetched anthropo-syntactical (!) root for this regional difference, amid general laughter, based on a different perception of time, but I guess that was the (perception of) beer.


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## Riccardino

Would one sound really odd if he or she was using only Passato Prossimo while staying in Naples?


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## moodywop

Riccardino said:


> Would one sound really odd if he or she was using only Passato Prossimo while staying in Naples?


 
As I explained in an earlier post most people in Naples and Campania as a whole actually do use the passato prossimo more often than the passato remoto, so no you wouldn't sound odd at all


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## Never Got a Dinner

In other thread, someone (obviously a northerner) wrote:



> In pratica nel linguaggio parlato il passato remoto non viene usato quasi mai... si usa, ad esempio, a scuola e nell'ambito culturale.



This is positively incorrect.  It is correct for _France_ but not for Italy.

It is true that the remoto is rarer in the north.  However, Italy does not stop at Florence.  There are, believe it or not, quite a few provinces and regions south of Florence!

In Naples and southward, the passato remoto is *absolutely used*.  And not only in literature -- in actual conversation!

_Oggi sono andato al mercato ed ho comprato una bottiglia di vino. _Here you can't use the remoto.  However:

_Ieri__ andai al mercato e comprai una bottiglia di vino._  Here the remoto is positively correct.  And don't say otherwise, because when I go to Naples I hear this with my own two ears.  The only stipulation is that you are _narrating_ something, i.e., telling a story.  So long as it's part of a story, the story doesn't have to be any more profound than a supermarket.

Once you get as south as Sicily, you can use the remoto with even less chance of being looked at funny.  Again, I have been there and heard it with my own ears, so don't tell me otherwise.

Conversely, the Italian books teach certain things that you positively would not hear in the South.  The formal plural form (Loro) is not used.  Once I was talking to a group of ladies, and I asked them if they knew about something (I don't remember what). I used the verb _conoscono._ They looked around the room to see who the "they" was that I was talking about.  

In Germany there was an actual committee, comprised of representatives from each of the provinces of Germany, and through a democratic process they culled characteristics from each region and formed the official Hochdeutsch.

_This never occurred in Italy._  Try getting a Florentine and a Sicilian to agree on the time of day, let alone language.  In short, there is no official Italian.  There is the often repeated notion that in Florence they speak the "pure Italian."  Coincidentally, that notion was invented by some Florentine.  Go to Florence and turn on the radio.  One person will say quésto, another will say quèsto, one will say béne, another will say bène.

This is not a problem in itself.  The problem arises only when an arrogant person claims that there is one Italian and one pronunciation of it.

In short, the notion that the remoto "isn't used in conversation" is a *regional notion*.  The remoto is a beautiful tense and positively should be used -- and CAN be used.


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## VolaVer

Never Got a Dinner said:


> [...]
> 
> In short, the notion that the remoto "isn't used in conversation" is a *regional notion*. The remoto is a beautiful tense and positively should be used -- and CAN be used.


I subscribe to this.


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## gabrigabri

Never Got a Dinner said:


> _Oggi sono andato al mercato ed ho comprato una bottiglia di vino. _Here you can't use the remoto. However:
> 
> _Ieri__ andai al mercato e comprai una bottiglia di vino._ Here the remoto is positively correct.




In my opinion this is not 100% correct: "remoto" means far away, distant in the time: yesterday is not far away! 
That's my personal rule: if it happened yesterday, or 3 months ago, you should use "passato prossimo" (prossimo=near).
If something happened 3 years ago you should use passato remoto.


But it is so difficult (and maybe impossible) (to???) decide, what the "correct" version is!!


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## Riccardino

Where or when IS the formal loro used? I've never heard it or seen it, and have been given the impression that it is a rather archaic form. I've been told that the only time one would ever use it is if they met a bunch of Italian diplomats or cardinals.


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## VolaVer

gabrigabri said:


> [...]
> 
> In my opinion this is not 100% correct: "remoto" means far away, distant in the time: yesterday is not far away!


That is true as a general and easy to remember rule, but, as NGAD said, there are Italian regions such as Sicily or Puglia, for instance, where they apply the passato remoto to actions that took place yesterday.
And that is perfectly correct Italian.


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## gabrigabri

I don't know what's the best version!
But I don't think that everything that's widely used somewhere is correct. For example: 
Chiama A Luigi. almost everybody in the South says so, but it is wrong.

In Turin nobody uses p.remoto (only the parents who come from South, but young people don't): if I write at school: "Colombo ha scoperto 500 anni fa l'America" it's a mistake; I think that if someone writes in Sicily "Ieri sera andai a una festa" is wrong too.


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## mateintwo

Can I assume for time periods when you normally say “last” (last week, month ,year I went) it is better to use “prossimo" but when you refer to other periods when it is unnatural to say “last” (I went last decade, last century) and you normally specify the year (in 2003, 1998 and so on) the correct form to use is “remoto”.??? 

Then we have the problem for us “foreigner” far from speaking fluent Italian. Would we not come across as “stuffed up, snobbish and pretentious” if we try to use “remoto” especially in the North, if the natives hardly use this tense??


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## Murphy

mateintwo said:


> Then we have the problem for us “foreigner” far from speaking fluent Italian. Would we not come across as “stuffed up, snobbish and pretentious” if we try to use “remoto” especially in the North, if the natives hardly use this tense??


 
My experience, as a foreigner, is no, they wouldn't think you were a snob for using the passato remoto. Quite the contrary, I often find that people look impressed if I use it (correctly, that is ) as if they are thinking - "wow, you know the passato remoto!" (It's actually encouraged me to try and use it more, instead of just relying on the passato prossimo.) 

Of course, I don't live in the North and haven't actually been there for many years, but on the whole I don't think Italians would ever react negatively to any foreigner who is trying to speak their language.


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## virgilio

moodywop,
               You wrote:"For a language to lose a tense all of a sudden is like a person losing a limb. You have to re-adjust."
  First of all, it is very unlikely that the 'loss' occurred suddenly. You yourself suggest that the changes taking place in Campania and Sicilia are gradual.
Secondly, it seems to me that the tense is not lost but rather put on a shelf, so to speak, from which it can readily be recovered and reactivated at any time - possibly our great grandchildren might follow different fashions from ours.

Thirdly many other languages have found that having two tenses, where one will do, is 'surplus to requirements'
French, for example, has an approximately identical approach to the problem as the Italians have, Greek (both ancient and modern) tended (tends) to favour the aorist (passato remoto) tense over the present perfect, classical Latin favoured the present perfect over the aorist and modern American English very often favours the simple past tense over the present perfect.
e.g.
In UK English, if some irritating person, whom you have long suffered patiently, finally says or does something which pushes you, as we say, 'over the edge', you might in the UK say:
"That does it!" oppure "That has done it!"
An similarly oppressed American would, I think, probably say "That did it!"
  English and Spanish use both tenses but then the English and the Spanish have always, I suppose, been extravagant!" It comes from having inherited an imperial past, I suppose.

Best wishes
Virgilio


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## Never Got a Dinner

gabrigabri said:


> I think that if someone writes in Sicily "Ieri sera andai a una festa" is wrong too.



But not if you say "Ierisera andai a una festa ed una cosa interessantissima succedde.  Lì, alla festa, vidi ... " and so on and so on (a narrative, in other words).


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## gabrigabri

Never Got a Dinner said:


> But not if you say "Ierisera andai a una festa ed una cosa interessantissima succedde. Lì, alla festa, vidi ... " and so on and so on (a narrative, in other words).


 
For me/to me (???) it is still weird!!


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## Never Got a Dinner

moodywop said:


> - Preside, *ve *(notice *ve *instead of *glie, which is what I would have used*) le ho lasciate sulla scrivania sabato...(thinks)...ah! Volete (instead of *vuole* - again, what I would use) dire _quelle _circolari! Ve le *diedi *l'anno scorso.



I wanted to mention this!  Thanks for doing so.  With southerners over the age of 80, let's say, I use the voi form instead of the Lei form.  Again, no Italian text book says anything about that.  Because the Florentines don't do it, it must be incorrect, right? Grrr...


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## Never Got a Dinner

Riccardino said:


> Would one sound really odd if he or she was using only Passato Prossimo while staying in Naples?



No, only uneducated.


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## Never Got a Dinner

gabrigabri said:


> In a conversation is everything correct!



If a mistake is made often enough in conversation, it becomes "correct."  That's why some people even allow il zucchero: enough people made the mistake that in some circles il zucchero is now admissible!

It is a shame when this happens, and it would be a horrific shame if the remoto were weeded out for this reason.


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## gabrigabri

Never Got a Dinner said:


> No, only uneducated.


 

Uneducated?????
Not at all!!
I'm sure they woldn't notice it! They would maybe think "now I would use passato remoto" and that's it!
If someone speaks like that in Northern Italy, you would think "He says -ieri mangiai- how fun!!" but you woulnd't think he is not educated.

Il zucchero= is it admissible?????????? Where????


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## Never Got a Dinner

Murphy said:


> My experience, as a foreigner, is no, they wouldn't think you were a snob for using the passato remoto. Quite the contrary, I often find that people look impressed if I use it (correctly, that is ) as if they are thinking - "wow, you know the passato remoto!"



I think so.  Once I was in Torino, and they had the equivalent of "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" on TV.  The question was what is the first person singular for crescere.  I, the American, was the only one in the room who knew it was crebbe.  

Granted, crescere is one of those verbs that is almost always used in the imperfect, because when is "to grow" NOT a "continued action in the past"?  However you positively do hear it.  In reminiscing about my early life, 

_Io crebbi in un ambiente ove ..._


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## libre_pensador

Hello,

I have a question about the passato remoto. I know that the passato prossimo is more generally used than the passato remoto in Italian. In that case, do Italians have a more difficult time using the remoto tense when speaking? There are so many irregular verbs and stems--if it's rarely used, do Italians still have good control over it, or do you find yourself stumbling over conjugations sometimes? Is the tense taught in school, or do Italians simply learn it when they are little and learning how to talk? I know it's not an obsolete tense in Sicily where it is used more than the prossimo tense. I would appreciate any insight, thank you!


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## Le Peru

Ciao, spero che se ti rispondo in italiano non sia un problema. 

Dunque, posso rispondere a questa domanda secondo la mia esperienza, che penso sia comune a molti italiani. 
In effetti il passato remoto, nella lingua parlata è molto meno utilizzato in molte regioni d'Italia come tu stesso/a dici. Ma in generale non credo che sia di difficile uso, non lo è sicuramente per verbi frequentemente utilizzati. 

Viene insegnato nelle scuole sin da bambini e (riferendomi quanto meno alla località in cui vivo) di certo si usa più frequentemente nel linguaggio scritto, come ad esempio la poesia, la narrativa, ecc. 

Ci sono alcuni verbi che possono essere poco conosciuti, o comunque molto rari da utilizzare nella forma remota, sia nel linguaggio scritto che nel parlato. Per questi verbi solitamente si ricorre al dizionario, quando necessita.  
Per fare un esempio, pochi giorni fa io stessa sono dovuta andare a guardare nel coniugatore dei verbi di WR il passato remoto del verbo "rimordere", che mi serviva per descrivere una situazione all'interno di un racconto posto al passato.

Spero di non aver dimenticato nessuna delle tue domande e che la mia spiegazione sia stata esauriente....

Baci 
Barbara


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## bambino45

Hi everyone,

This topic of the *passato remoto *has been puzzling me ever since I started earning Italian. I have been looking on the internet for explanations on when it should be used instead of the *passato prossimo* and I happened to stumble upon this article in the Academia della Crusca website. It seems like this topic has been one of controversy even between Italians themselves.

Here's the link for the article (it's in Italian):
http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php?id=4697&ctg_id=93

I would appreciate you guys to give some input on this. I think this is a subject that still needs to be clarified, especially for those learning the language! You never know when you might have to use it. 


bambino45


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## joseluismb

Hi everyone,

Being Mexican, the use of the different perfect past tenses is one of the main differences between Mexican Spanish and Spanish spoken elsewhere. When I was learning French, I had a really hard time learning the "Passé Simple" (the equivalent to the Passato Remoto), because I noticed the "Passé Composé" was used WAY more often (the equivalent to the Passato Prossimo"). It was really hard because of all the exceptions and irregular verbs there were in that tense. And I have RARELY heard anyone say it in French, but I have come across it a time or two in books, literary texts, etc. 

So for me, it was more important to learn to recognize and understand it, rather than learning every irregular verb by heart, because I have ALMOST NEVER used it, and when I have, I've used a simple verb, like an equivalent for "essere" or "avere".

Now, I was impressed by the number of irregular verbs there are in the italian Passato Remoto, which got me thinking if I really need to master it because I am going to use it often, or if it is more important just to learn when it's used and to understand it when I come across it.


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## swansea12

This thread only confirms that the passato remoto is a bone of contention even among Italians.With the many dialects and the fact that standard Italian has long had local dialectical competitors such as english does not have it seems clear that the passato remoto would be better off pushed into redundancy.


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## giovannino

Swansea, I fail to see the logical connection between your premise:



> With the many dialects and the fact that standard Italian has long had local dialectical competitors such as english does not have



and the conclusion you draw from it:



> it seems clear that the passato remoto would be better off pushed into redundancy.



I haven't read the whole thread but I think it's crucial to make a difference between spoken and written Italian. 

Undoubtedly in spoken Italian the passato remoto is rarely used except in the South. However: 1) There are many Italians in central Italy who like to keep the distinction between passato remoto and prossimo; 2) When speaking about historical events or telling children bedtime stories the passato remoto is the only possible choice.

In written Italian the passato remoto is alive and well. You will find it used in newspapers, in historical writing, biographies and autobiographies and in fictional narrative as well as in poetry and songs.


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## swansea12

Most people tend not to read so much anymore...I think spoken language is dominant now more and more.It is a matter of disagreement among madrelingue about the passato remoto.My own view is that it will become redundant more and more in spoken speech a bit like the subjunctive in english, although you will find it used in books and papers which has little relation to everyday english usage.
The logical connection is that the disagreement among italians regarding passato remoto mirrors the tower of babel problem among italians.It lacks the history and homogeneity of english and spanish.I think italian could do without the superfluous tense of the remoto.
Most ordinary language users use a very basic version of their language.The intellectuals are far more precious about it.I am on the side of the simplifiers and I merely say getting rid of the passato would be an excellent step.I have noted that italians are very inconsistent users of their own language.I struggle to find papers trhat write good italian.How often on here am I told that my misunderstanding arose from a bad source!


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## Paulfromitaly

swansea12 said:


> I have noted that italians are very inconsistent users of their own language.


Why inconsistent?
Because the passato remoto is used more in the South than it is in the North?
American speakers use the simple past much more than Brits do: does that make Brits or Americans inconsistent speakers of English?


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## giovannino

Paulfromitaly said:


> Why inconsistent?
> Because the passato remoto is used more in the South than it is in the North?
> American speakers use the simple past much more than Brits do: does that make Brits or Americans inconsistent speakers of English?



A very good point, Paul
It hadn't occurred to me.


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## swansea12

Really you cannot compare american english with british english.The italian language is much more diverse than english in its use.There is nothing to compare in english with the passato remoto.Using tenses differently is different from a different tense altogether which all english users would find bizarre.I am sorry if it sounds rude but it is a bit of a dinosaur this tense.
I ask you only this...if the passato remoto stopped being used and instead the prossimo was used then what loss would there be?English is so easy to learn and while it is important to keep languages alive I think because I support diversity greatly,I think any language to itself avoid becoming redundant and eventually extinct needs to bend to the needs of outside learners.I tell you frankly not many would want to bother with extra tenses such as the passato remoto....languages need to be simplified to be accessible to foreigners or you will find italian german and others will end up becoming like the dialects that are beginning to die out even now.Denglish is an example of how german has been rudely combined with english out of necessity because of the everpresence of english.I worry about the decline of linguistic variety in the future....


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## Einstein

swansea12 said:


> My own view is that it will become redundant more and more in spoken speech a bit like the subjunctive in english, although you will find it used in books and papers which has little relation to everyday english usage.
> 
> I think italian could do without the superfluous tense of the remoto.


First of all, an aside about the subjunctive.
When we say "If I knew, I would tell you", we are speaking about a present hypothetical situation. So why use the past tense of "know"? Because it's subjunctive! The past subjunctive is alive and well. The difference with Italian is that it has a separate form only in the verb "be" (if I were) and that is disappearing.
More to the point for this discussion is that when we abolish the subjunctive in a sentence like "I ask that this *be* done" we substitute it with an infinitive construction: "I ask *for* this *to be *done". This may seem like a simplification to English speakers, but for foreign learners it can be quite difficult. So we see that languages evolve with the disappearance of some forms but the meanings need to be expressed anyway.
This applies to the disappearance of the passato remoto. Let's say that you and I have an argument; later it turns out that I was right. I could say, triumphantly, "There, what did I say?"
How can we express this in Italian? The literal translation would be "Cosa ti dissi?", but I've never heard anyone say that. What about "Cosa ti ho detto?" No, because this would mean the same as "What have I said?", which we would say to mean "What have I said so far?" or "Oh dear, what have I said (to offend you)?"
So what do the Italians say? - "Cosa ti avevo detto?" This is a use of the double past that sounds strange to an English-speaker. Another example:
"Non mi avevi detto che conosci Berlusconi!" (You didn't tell me...).
In British English we have three tenses: the present perfect to talk about a present situation resulting from a past action; the simple past to talk about events separated from the present; the past perfect to talk about a past event preceding another past event. We see that the removal of one of these tenses means the adoption of another form that may seem easier for native speakers but not necessarily for foreigners. Conclusion: Simplification is in the eye of the beholder.


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## giovannino

Einstein said:


> We see that the removal of one of these tenses means the adoption of another form that may seem easier for native speakers but not necessarily for foreigners. Conclusion: Simplification is in the eye of the beholder.



Trenchantly put, as always, Einstein
And your observation about the special use of the past perfect in Italian is a point I tried to make in some threads in the past (it came up in a thread opened by Jana, a talented mod who unfortunately no longer has time to visit IE) but was never taken up by others.

I doubt that the passato remoto will ever disappear from written Italian and I'm pretty sure that my nieces' children will be using it when telling their children bedtime stories. Anyway, I won't be around if the passato remoto disappears so it's not something I lose any sleep over
I'm more concerned about the overall degradation of the Italian language as used by politicians and bureaucrats (e.g. the stuff I, a teacher, have to read in the dreary "circolari" we get from the Ministero) and the sad state of Italian language teaching in our schools, with its excessive emphasis on the teaching of the history of Italian literature(rather than actually reading good books), resulting in 18-year-olds not knowing how to write _ce n'è _ -- I'm not kidding!


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## swansea12

I believe you giovannino.In britain most people who graduate from universities cannot punctuate properly or spell correctly and many struggle with grammar.My point about the passato is that in a world where even the natives struggle with basic literacy...complicated forms are bound to be used less and less....I went to the bank yesterday, Caesar crossed the Rubicon....but in Italian we need two tenses.The idea of somwething like the passato remoto if it existed surviving in my country is frankly risible...I very much doubt the next generations of Italians  will be any different to our own....


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## giovannino

OK, swansea, let me just base my response on my gut instinct as a native speaker. I can't imagine even the next generations of fellow Italians using the passato prossimo in such a tender, intimate context as telling children bedtime stories -- or, for that matter in historical essays/textbooks , in (auto)biographies, memoirs etc. In these cases the "distancing" effect of the passato remoto is an absolute must. I doubt that you will find any native Italians disagreeing with me.

Of course, as a foreign learner of Italian, you can happily dispense with the passato remoto as I guess you're unlikely to ever want to write an essay on Imperial Rome or the destruction of Pompei or write a memoir.


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## Einstein

giovannino said:


> OK, swansea, let me just base my response on my gut instinct as a native speaker. I can't imagine even the next generations of fellow Italians using the passato prossimo in such a tender, intimate context as telling children bedtime stories -- or, for that matter in historical essays/textbooks , in (auto)biographies, memoirs etc. In these cases the "distancing" effect of the passato remoto is an absolute must. I doubt that you will find any native Italians disagreeing with me.
> 
> Of course, as a foreign learner of Italian, you can happily dispense with the passato remoto as I guess you're unlikely to ever want to write an essay on Imperial Rome or the destruction of Pompei or write a memoir.


I also think that the passato prossimo in a story would become rather cumbersome. The story wouldn't flow well if every verb were formed with an auxiliary. The passato remoto has the advantage of being a single word, just like the English simple past (which also has it share of irregular forms).
Of course another possibility in Italian is to use the historic present; in English this has a limited use, mainly for re-telling the plot of a book or film.

Obviously I agree with *giovannino* that for the foreign student the passato remoto is not the first thing that needs to be learnt.


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## giovannino

Einstein said:


> I also think that the passato prossimo in a story would become rather cumbersome. The story wouldn't flow well if every verb were formed with an auxiliary. The passato remoto has the advantage of being a single word



A very good point, Einstein
Can you imagine what De André's _La canzone di Marinella_  would sound like if the remoto were to be replaced with the prossimo?
link


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## Darkicity

I am a learner of Italian and I am doing my best to learn the passato remoto because I feel it is definitely necessary. I really hope it doesn't go extinct. When I go visit Italy I'll definitely use it despite it not being used so much nowadays. I like how the southerners speak, I even like that they use "voi" instead of "Lei" it reminds me of Spanish in a way and how we added usted(es) and vosotros to replace the perfectly good system we had of tú (fam. sing.) and vos (pol. sing/ plural). I am not too fond of the "Loro" conjugation that was made to be formal to a group of people, THAT if anything seems extra in Italian and not the passato prossimo. Lei,  I like how French has "vous" as a formal plural AND singular pronoun. Much simpler, I like the T-V distinction.


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## olaszinho

Darkicity said:


> I am a learner of Italian and I am doing my best to learn the passato remoto because I feel it is definitely necessary.
> .


Good job! I am Italian and I normally use both tenses. In my opinion, the passato remoto is the most beautiful tense in Italian, it is evocative, varied and rich in forms and irregularities. Every foreigner should learn it, at least if they want to read something in Italian: you can easily  find Passato Remoto  in books, newspapers, magazines, online articles and fairy tales. Don't worry, it isn't going to disappear soon,  all the books for students in Primary school are written using the passato remoto. Apart from regional differences, the Passato Remoto is used on TV as well, particulary in some programmes such as: news, sports debates, documentaries, and you can hear it even in trash TV programmes like _the Big Bother or Uomini e donne_.


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## Paulfromitaly

SOLO ITALIANO topics must be discussed in the SOLO ITALIANO forum.


domande sul passato remoto - forum Solo Italiano
Influenze dialettali nella scelta passato remoto vs. prossimo - forum Solo Italiano
L'uso del gerundio nel passato prossimo ed il passato remoto - forum Solo Italiano
Passato prossimo e remoto nella stessa frase - forum Solo Italiano
Passato Remoto - credetti? - forum Solo Italiano
passato remoto - passato prossimo - forum Solo Italiano
Presente storico o passato remoto - forum Solo Italiano
scoloraro, legaro - passato remoto? - forum Solo Italiano
trapassato prossimo o passato remoto? - forum Solo Italiano
trapassato prossimo vs passato remoto - forum Solo Italiano


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