# Asking the Value of Ordinal Numbers / whichth? / how manyeth?



## Flaminius

Dear Forum,

I wonder how languages you know ask the value of ordinal numbers.  In other words, how do they demand the hearer the value for "_n_th" as in, "Bill Clinton is the _n_th president of USA"?

*Japanese* can use a direct Wh-question to elicit the answer for the above question.

ビル・クリントンは何番目のアメリカ合衆国大統領ですか。
Bill Clinton-wa nam-bamme-no Amerika Gasshūoku Daitōryō desu-ka.
BC-TOPIC Wh-ordinalPosition-GEN USA president copula-Question.


The answer would be;
42番目の大統領です。
42 bamme-no daitōryō desu.
42 ordinalPosition-GEN president copula.
[He] is the 42nd president.

In short, X-bamme-no (of *X*th position) can take the Wh-morpheme and yield nam-bamme-no (of *Wh*th position).

Mandarin and Turkish can use a Wh-question if I remember correctly.

In contrast, many languages such as English, French and Italian seem to be unable to make a Wh-question to ask directly an ordinal number.  What constructions do those languages use in order to elicit the answer, "BC is the 42nd president"?


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## Outsider

I supposed you are asking whether there is a way to ask *"Is X the n-th president of the United States?"*, or perhaps *"Who is the n-th president of the United States?"*

As you can see, it can be done in English.


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## Flaminius

The answer I'd like to get in the shortest form is, "the 42nd one" *not* "Bill Clinton."

The Japanese sentence for your  *"Who is the n-th president of the United States?"* is;
誰が42番目の大統領ですか。
dare-ga 42-bamme-no daitōryō desu-ka.
Who-NOM 42-ordinalPlace-GEN president copula-Q


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## Frank06

Hi,


Flaminius said:


> I wonder how languages you know ask the value of ordinal numbers.  In other words, how do they demand the hearer the value for "_n_th" as in, "Bill Clinton is the _n_th president of USA"?


In *Dutch*:
- De hoeveelste president van de VS is Bill Clinton?
The 'how-many-th' president of the VS is BC.
- We can reverse the order:
BC is de hoeveelste president van de VS?

But that doesn't change the phrase 'article + WH- card. numb. + noun'

Groetjes,

Frank


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## DrWatson

This type of question is possible in Finnish:

Q: *Monesko Yhdysvaltain presidentti on Bill Clinton? *(= *How-many-th president of the United States is BC?)
A:* Hän on 42. presidentti. *(= He is the 42nd president)

And I think this can be done in German, too:

Q: *Der wieviels**te Präsident der vereinigten Staaten ist BC?*
A: *Er ist der 42. Präsident.*


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## jonquiliser

Swedish also has a form of 'many' that elicits the answer "the n-th": "hur mång_te_..?" *(ex: hur mångte gånger är det du hör det? - how manyeth time is it you hear that?) In the case of the president, however, this would be a little weird to use that, you would say "vilken president i ordningen är BC?", i.e. (lit.) "which president in the order is BC?"

It seems that "mångte" in any case is a finlandism (a word used in the Swedish spoken in Finland).


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## Ilmo

In *Finnish* we have a very handy word "monesko", that means exactly "how-many-th". You can also say "kuinka mones"; it has the same meaning.

*Monesko Amerikan presidentti Bill Clinton on?*
*Hän on neljäskymmenestoinen presidentti.*

In order to avoid rather long and complicated written ordinal numbers, we usuallly mark in text by putting a period after the number; this changes the cardinal number to an ordinal one.
Tus:

*Hän on (Amerikan) 42. presidentti.*

In order to avoid confusion, the ordinal number should not be the last "word" in a sentence! Nobody could understand correctly two consecutive periods.


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## Krümelmonster

In German it's similar to the Dutch version, you would ask "Der *wievielte* Präsident der USA ist Bill Clinton?" 
or reversed: "Bill Clinton ist der *wievielte* Präsident der USA?
(As Frank06 translated: The 'how-many-th' president of the US is BC?)


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## Whodunit

I think it works in colloquial French, but a native speaker should prove it:

*Bill Clinton est le combientième président des États-Unis ?*

If you can understand some Chinese, of which I'm sure you can, Flaminius, you might like this topic.


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## jester.

Whodunit said:


> I think it works in colloquial French, but a native speaker should prove it:
> 
> *Bill Clinton est le combientième président des États-Unis ?*



It certainly is:



			
				PONS said:
			
		

> *combientième* [kõbj tjäm]
> *I.  *_adj abusif fam _wievielte(r, s);


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## Outsider

Flaminius said:


> In contrast, many languages such as English, French and Italian seem to be unable to make a Wh-question to ask directly an ordinal number.  What constructions do those languages use in order to elicit the answer, "BC is the 42nd president"?


I think you would need to resort to some kind of periphrasis, such as "*Which position* did Bill Clinton hold in the line (list?) of American presidents?" 

The same for Portuguese.


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## Marga H

Similar in Polish: *Który z kolei?...*which in the line..


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## Chazzwozzer

As I've heard, it would be probably asked as* "What number president was Bill Clinton?"

Turkish:* Kaçıncı?

_Bill Clinton *kaçıncı *başkandı?_


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## Qcumber

Tagalog (Philippines) can say it:
*Ika-iláng pangúlo si George Bush?*

ika- = turns a cardinal number into an ordinal one
ilán = how much / how many
> iláng = ditto + linker
si = nominal marker for in-focus person's names


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## Qcumber

Whodunit said:


> I think it works in colloquial French, but a native speaker should prove it:
> *Bill Clinton est le combientième président des États-Unis ?*


Sounds good. Perhaps some would make it a partitive.
*B. C. est le combientième des présidents des E.U.?*


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## awanzi

In Italian I think you can't ask directly. You have to use a complete sentence. "Quantotanto" doesn't exist...

*Nell'ordine, BC quale presidente è?*
(In the order, is BC which president?) 

I can't think of a better one!


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## Stéphane89

Whodunit said:


> I think it works in colloquial French, but a native speaker should prove it:
> 
> *Bill Clinton est le combientième président des États-Unis ?*
> 
> If you can understand some Chinese, of which I'm sure you can, Flaminius, you might like this topic.


 
I'm afraid I do disagree with this!

Le *combientième* may sound good but it is wrong although I must say many french-speakers do the mistake too.

The right way to say it is: *Le quantième président des Etats-Unis Bill Clinton était-il?* OR *Bill Clinton était le quantième président des Etats-Unis.*

I've just looked it up in the dictionary. They say it exists but is familiar and incorrect. _("Incorrect use for combien, le quantième"_)


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## Lugubert

Should I for some obscure reason be interested, I would probably ask, _Vilken president i ordningen är X_?, like 'Which president, in order, is X', which would elicit an answer using a (perhaps) appropriate ordinal number _Jag gissar att han är den fyrtioandre_ 'I guess he's the 42th (one)'. People away from our west coast, who have lost the gender distinction, will probably tell you _Jag gissar att han är den fyrtioandra_.


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## jazyk

That's something I've always wondered myself and I don't think there's a succint way to express it in Portuguese.  I'd do it as Outsider suggested.


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## Qcumber

StefKE said:


> The right way to say it is: *Le quantième président des Etats-Unis Bill Clinton était-il?*


Sounds very very very odd to me.


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## Frank06

Hi,


StefKE said:


> Le *combientième* may sound good but it is wrong although I must say many french-speakers do the mistake too... I've just looked it up in the dictionary. They say it exists but is familiar and incorrect.


"(le/la) combientième" gives *10,000+* hits on google, and you say they are all wrong?? 
And you say so because you looked it up in a dictionary? And then you say it's familiar and (hence?) incorrect?
Does this imply that you speak unfamiliar but correct French? 

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Flaminius

Lugubert said:


> Should I for some obscure reason be interested (...)



This may be equally uninteresting, but what kind of question elicits the following answer?

Little Fiery  Dictionary finished in the Xth place in the Derby.


I am just wondering how productive this _Vilken __ ordningen_ construction is.


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## Lugubert

^
I'm all for variation, so I'd just ask, _Vilken plats kom LFD på?_ 'at which place did LFD end up?', happily disregarding any Strunk pseudo-rules in English requiring no sentence-ending prepositions.


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## kusurija

In Czech it's similar to the Dutch version, you would ask "*Kolikátý* president USA je Bill Clinton?" 
or reversed: "Bill Clinton je *kolikátý(kolikátým)* president(-em) USA/Spojených států Amerických?
Answ.: BC je 42. [čtyřicátý druhý] president USA.
(As Frank06 translated: The 'how-many-th' president of the US is BC?)

In Lituanian it's also similar:
Q: "K*elintas *JAV presidentas yra Bilas Klintonas?"
A: BK yra 42[keturiasdešimt antrasis]  JAV presidentas. 

ご機嫌よう, Flaminius!


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## 2PieRad

Ordinals in Chinese come in the form of [第(di4)][number][counter][noun]. The noun can be excluded.

-第三杯水 [di4 san1 bei1 shui3] _The third cup of water
-_第一封信 [di4 yi1 feng1 xin4] _The first letter (mail) _[You'll actually hear 一 pronounced as yi4 instead in this case]
-第二首歌 [di4 er4 shou3 ge1] _The second song_
-第四十二名总统 [di4 si4 shi2 er4 ming2 zong3 tong3] _The 42nd president. _(I _think_ the correct counter is 名 in this case but for some reason, 位 sounds a bit better...and 总 would often be pronounced as zong2 in this type of situation)

To ask _which _ordinal, just substitute the number with 几(ji3).
-第几首歌? etc.

So...here's my sad attempt at a translation:

比尔克林顿是美国的第几名总统？
bi3 er3 ke4 lin2 dun4 shi4 mei3 guo2 de...etc.

And as a side note, to my recollection, Chinese media usually only addressed him by his last name 克林顿.

^^任 (ren4) may be the best counter. I'm still not quite sure. =/


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## Nanon

Frank06 said:


> "(le/la) combientième" gives *10,000+* hits on google, and you say they are all wrong??
> And you say so because you looked it up in a dictionary? And then you say it's familiar and (hence?) incorrect?
> Does this imply that you speak unfamiliar but correct French?



About Stefke's suggestion (quantième), see the corresponding CNRTL entry here.

It implies that "quantième" is a _dated _form when used as interrogative, so Stefke _was _speaking correct French after all. Both of you are right somehow (oh my God, here I am settling linguistic conflicts between Belgians  !!!).
"Quantième" is not dated when used as a noun, and not as interrogative, meaning the "xx" day of the month ("le quantième du mois") in administrative, financial, legalese... contexts.
To be honest, I must say that "combientième" has no entry at all in CNRTL.

I do insist that most of French speakers living in France, and probably in Belgium too (to be confirmed) would say "combientième", or get around the problem by saying "numéro combien" (literally "number how much"). A (colloquial, spoken) example would be "Clinton, c'est le président des États-Unis numéro combien ?"

Here is a related topic from another forum (in French).


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## Nizo

It can be done in *Esperanto*:  _Bill Clinton estas la kioma prezidento de Usono?_


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## sakvaka

If we *Finns* want to know someone's placement in a competition, we can ask them _Monesko olit?_ "Moni" means "many", -s is the ordinal number suffix and -ko is a question particle. The word doesn't have an accurate English counterpair, but *_how manyeth_ would come quite close.

Just as every question word, _monesko_ can also be declinated. _Monentenako tulit maaliin?_ lit. "As how manyeth did you cross the finish line?"

*Tagalog* seems to have such a word, too: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=9445347

Is an ordinal question word used in other languages? Thanks in advance!


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## Juan Nadie

In Spanish we would ask: ¿En qué posición/lugar quedaste/llegaste?  (In which position/place did you stand/arrive?). But I can't think of anything similar to that Monesko olit?


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## ilocas2

It's well used in Czech


*kolikátý* - how manyeth

*Kolikátý jsi skončil ?* - How manyeth did you finish ?

Since Czech lacks much/many distinction, it could be "how mucheth" as well.


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## cyberpedant

I fail to understand what you're getting at. The ending, "th," is either an old form for a third person _singular _present indicative verb ["doth," for example, instead of "does"] or a suffix that changes an adjective to a noun [warmth, breadth, strength, etc.] It is decidedly _not_ a plural form. What do you expect "manyeth" or "mucheth" to mean?


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## jazyk

> In Spanish we would ask: ¿En qué posición/lugar quedaste/llegaste? (In which position/place did you stand/arrive?). But I can't think of anything similar to that Monesko olit?


Same in Portuguese. _Em que_/qual_ posição ficaste/você ficou/chegaste/você chegou?_


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## ilocas2

cyberpedant said:


> I fail to understand what you're getting at. The ending, "th," is either an old form for a third person _singular _present indicative verb ["doth," for example, instead of "does"] or a suffix that changes an adjective to a noun [warmth, breadth, strength, etc.] It is decidedly _not_ a plural form. What do you expect "manyeth" or "mucheth" to mean?



It's only a parallel, a word-by-word translation. Like sixth - manyeth. Certainly all know that the word "manyeth" is nonsense in English


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## rusita preciosa

Russian: 
*на каком месте* /na kakom meste/ - on what place
(colloquial): *каким* /kakim/ - something like "in what condition/state"


cyberpedant said:


> I fail to understand what you're getting at.


four - four*th*
how many - how manye*th*


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## bibax

I should write *manieth*  instead of manyeth  .

Latin:

quot? (how many?) 
*quotus?* (how manieth?)

*Quota* hora est? (What's the time?)
*Quotus* dies mensis est? (What's the date?)

German:

wieviel? (how many?) 
(der) *wievielte?*  (how manieth?)

Der *wievielte* sind Sie?  (How manyith are you?)
Der *wievielte* ist heute?  (What's the date today?)

French:

combien? (how many?) 
(le) *combientième?*  (how manyith?)

Le *combientième* êtes-vous?  (How manyith are you?)

Hungarian:

hány? (how many?)
*hányadik?* (how manyith?)

*Hányadika* van ma? (What's the date today?)


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## sakvaka

bibax said:


> *Hányadika* van ma? (What's the date today?)



Yes, this is one of the most common uses of the word.

_Monesko päivä tänään on?_ _- Viidestoista._


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## Tjahzi

Sadly, *Swedish* completely lacks such a word. The most common way to say which place one finished at would be _Jag kom på femte plats/Jag kom femma_ - _I arrived at fifth place/I came (in as number) five (n.)._ 

When talking about days, a construction identical to the English one would be used.


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## bibax

I'll extend the question. What languages you know has the complete set of the correlative (i.e. interrogative, demonstrative, indefinite and negative) pronouns related to the order?

Esperanto has such set for sure.

Czech:

*kolikátý? - tolikátý - několikátý* - (*nikolikátý)

*nikolikátý is not in use.

All these words are _adjectivalia_ (they distinguish number, gender and case like the adjectives).

German has: (der) *wievielte?* - (der) *sovielte* - ...


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## Frank06

Hi,

In Dutch we can use "de hoeveelste", which is pretty common (as in the question "De hoeveelste is het vandaag", word for word: the howmany-eth is it today?).

We also have "de zoveelste", word for word "the so/that many-eth".

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Kannan91

There is a word "എത്രാമത്തെ" (etrāmatte) in Malayalam that I don't think can be expressed in English in any concise way. I suppose the hypothetical English equivalent would be something like *whichth, but as this word doesn't actually exist, we have to come up with circumlocutions like "Where would x come in a (chronological etc.) listing of all y's". So for example, you could say something like:

ജോണ്‍ *എത്രാമത്തെ* ആങ്ഗലേയ രാജാവായിരുന്നു?
(Jōṇ *etrāmatte* āṅgalēya rājāvāyirunnu?)

"Whichth English King was John?"

Whereas in English, you'd have to say (and this seems clumsy to me, so feel free to rephrase it more elegantly):
"What would John's position be in a chronological list of English Kings/ in the English regnal list?"

I was wondering how many other languages have an equivalent word.


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## Rallino

Turkish has it.

Kaç = how many/how much?
Kaçıncı = which place (in a list). (lit. how manyth or maybe whichth, as you said)

Ex: 
- Olimpiyatlarda kaçıncı oldu ? - Which place did he get in the olympics? (I'm not sure of the English sentence)
- 2'nci oldu. - He got the 2nd place. (He came the 2nd (?) ).

Another example:

- Biz 5 kardeşiz. (We are 5 siblings. = I have 4 other siblings.)
- Sen kaçıncı çocuksun? (lit. You are how many'th child? It means: "And you are the child number ...?", or maybe I would translate it as, how many other children had already been born before you were?)


I thought this only existed in Turkish!


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## ewie

Here's a long thread about this 'problem' in the English Only forum:
42nd President of USA - how to ask a question with an ordinal answer. 1 2 3 4)


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## er targyn

My dictionary says it's "in succession". Which in succession... Right?
In Russian: какой по счёту - lit. which on count.


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## Tjahzi

Some languages do indeed have this word, but some don't. Standard Swedish lacks such a word.


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## SuperXW

Erebos12345 said:


> _-_第一封信 [di4 yi1 feng1 xin4] _The first letter (mail) _*[You'll actually hear 一 pronounced as yi4 instead in this case] *


Simply speaking, "which-th" / "how many-th" can be easily uttered in Chinese by adding 第(di4) before the number. All the other structures remain the same.
Just the red part you wrote was not right. The tone for 一 in 第一 (the first, no.1) will always be the 1st tone. Unlike in 一杯水 (one cup of water), the tone for 一 is yi4.


Erebos12345 said:


> ^^任 (ren4) may be the best counter. I'm still not quite sure. =/


Both 名 and 任 are fine here. We can also use 届.
名 is a counter focusing on "the person", and is less formal than 任, a counter focusing on "the sequence of a formal position" or 届, a counter focusing on "the sequence of a regular event (including presidency)".


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## Encolpius

bibax said:


> I'll extend the question. What languages you know has the complete set of the correlative (i.e. interrogative, demonstrative, indefinite and negative) pronouns related to the order?
> Czech:* kolikátý? - tolikátý - několikátý* - (*nikolikátý)*nikolikátý is not in use.



*Hungarian *

hányadik? -- ahányadik -- valahányadik / akárhányadik -- (sehányadik)


SuperXW said:


> Simply speaking, "which-th" / "how many-th" can be easily uttered in Chinese by adding 第(di4) before the number. All the other structures remain the same....



But the question was: "ask the value of ordinal numbers"...isn't that: 第几?


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## SuperXW

Encolpius said:


> But the question was: "ask the value of ordinal numbers"...isn't that: 第几?


Exactly. I meant, you can change the cardinal number into an ordinal number by adding 第 in both questions and statements. 几 means "how many" by itself, it becomes "how many-th" by adding 第.

  三名总统* = *three Presidents
*第*三名总统* = the third* President

  几名总统？ = how many Presidents?
*第*几名总统？ = “*How many-th*” President?

We don't use plural form for 三名总统/几名总统, so the latter parts don't have to change.


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## Treaty

In Persian we use _čandomīn _or _čandom_, which are made of _čand _("how many") + _om_ (the ordinal making suffix) + _īn_ (adjective making suffix):

_Obāmā čandomīn ra'īs-[e]-jomhūr-e Āmrikā-st?_
Obama how.many.th chief-[of]-republic-of America-is?
or
_Obāmā ra'īs-[e]-jomhūr-e čandom-e Āmrikā-st?_
Obama chief-[of]-republic-at how.many.th-of America-is?

It is also possible to combine _čand _questions with larger numbers:

_Obāmā čehel-o-čandomīn ra'īs-[e]-jomhūr-e Āmrikā-st?_
Obama forty-and-how.many.th chief-[of]-republic-of America-is?


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