# The visit tired me and them.



## Ali Smith

مرحبًا

How do you say "The visit tired me and them." in Arabic?

أتعبتني وإياهم الزيارةُ
أتعبتني الزيارة وإياهم

Are they equally correct?

شكرًا


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## elroy

الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وهم/هنّ


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## Matat

elroy said:


> الزيارة أتعبتني أنا *وهم/هنّ*


وإياهم/إياهن


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## elroy

I don't think so.  The pronouns are coordinated with أنا, so they should be the same case, no?


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## Matat

The third person pronoun would coordinate with ـني, not أنا, so it would be ضمير النصب. The أنا here is a توكيد. The sentence should still be syntactically correct if we are to remove أنا from the mix. الزيارة أتعبتني (أنا) وإياهم/إياهن.


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## elroy

Hm, I don't agree with that analysis.  أنا and هم/هن are both for توكيد; you either remove both or neither.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> أنا and هم/هن are both for توكيد;


If that was the case, then you'd need to change your object pronoun from ـني to ـنا.



elroy said:


> you either remove both or neither.


You don't need to have the توكيد in there at all. See the Quranic verse: نحن نرزقكم وإياهم


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## elroy

Matat said:


> If that was the case, then you'd need to change your object pronoun from ـني to ـنا.


 In Palestinian Arabic, it works with ـني, so I assumed it worked in MSA as well. 


Matat said:


> نحن نرزقكم وإياهم


 To me, that sounds literary/poetic/classical.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> In Palestinian Arabic, it works with ـني, so I assumed it worked in MSA as well.


It doesn't.


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## elroy

Do you have a source to back up your claim?

I found my structure attested in a Bahraini newspaper:

يأتي إصدار هذا الكتاب وهو الإصدار التاسع ضمن سلسلة إصدارات سنوية بدأت كما أشرت بمعية الشيخ محسن العصفور منذ عام 2008م، حيث أشرف كل عام على طباعتها وتوزيعها مجانا بمناسبة المولد النبوي الشريف، الذي أدين به لأخي الشيخ محسن العصفور كونه شاركني الفكرة ومدني بالكثير ما ساعدني أنا وهو في وضع هذه السلسلة على جسر سليم كونه المؤلف، وبدوري أقوم على الترجمة والتنسيق حبًا في الله ورسوله. 

Source: بمناسبة ذكرى الميلاد النبوي الشريف..


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## Matat

No particular source; just the fundamentals of عطف and توكيد. A توكيد لفظي, by definition, is just a repitition of the word or pronoun that was already mentioned. The third person pronoun in [الزيارة أتعتني أنا و[الضمير is not that; it's an object that wasn't previously mentioned and therefore in coordination with the object ـني which preceded it. A توكيد لفظي doesn't change the syntax of the sentence; its omission will output the same syntax as its presence.



elroy said:


> ساعدني أنا وهو في وضع هذه السلسلة على جسر سليم كونه المؤلف


This is not an attestation. The و here is حالية, not عاطفة, and the sentence after it which includes هو is a حال. Anyway, my statement wasn't about whether it is or isn't used in MSA, but that is incorrect.


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## elroy

Matat said:


> A توكيد لفظي doesn't change the syntax of the sentence; its omission will output the same syntax as its presence.


 I agree with this.  However, as I said earlier, I would say that in this case you either omit both or neither, since they are coordinated with each other.

The sticking point here is whether _both_ pronouns need to have been explicitly stated earlier.  So far, we know that:

1.) My structure works in Palestinian Arabic.
2.) There is at least one MSA attestation of my structure in a newspaper (see below).


Matat said:


> This is not an attestation.


 Yes, it is.


Matat said:


> The و here is حالية, not عاطفة, and the sentence after it which includes هو is a حال.


 Nope.

ما ساعدني أنا وهو في وضع هذه السلسلة على جسر سليم = which helped me and him / the two of us "put this series on a solid bridge"


Matat said:


> my statement wasn't about whether it is or isn't used in MSA, but that is incorrect.


 I know.  However, you've provided no support for your bold assertion other than your own deductive reasoning.  While an attestation in a reputable source like a newspaper (from an article that was presumably edited before being published) is by no means conclusive evidence, it is at least one indicator to consider.  By the way, it was challenging to even find that one attestation because you can't search for just ـني, so I had to search with actual verbs, and ساعدني أنا وهو was the only one of the strings I tried that returned a result from a reputable source.  Point being, there are probably more attestations that are difficult to find.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> I agree with this. However, as I said earlier, I would say that in this case you either omit both or neither, since they are coordinated with each other.


I'm confused. I don't understand what your position is. Do you agree الزيارة أتعبتني وإياهم is syntactically correct just as نحن نرزقكم وإياهم is correct? If so, then a) do you agree that adding the توكيد pronoun أنا in there wouldn't change anything (i.e. الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وإياهم), or b) are you suggesting that adding أنا obliges you to change إياهم to هم?


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## elroy

Matat said:


> Do you agree الزيارة أتعبتني وإياهم is syntactically correct just as نحن نرزقكم وإياكم is correct?


 I can't argue with the Qur'anic evidence you produced, but as I said the structure sounds literary/poetic/classical, so I wouldn't use or expect it in a prosaic modern text.


Matat said:


> do you agree that adding the توكيد pronoun أنا in there wouldn't change anything (i.e. الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وإياهم)?


 I can't imagine a context for this sentence, but *if* one were to be identified, then yes, I would agree that adding أنا wouldn't affect the surrounding syntax (if that's what you're asking).


Matat said:


> are you suggesting that by placing the أنا in there it means you are obliged to change إياهم to هم?


 I haven't suggested that الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وإياهم is _wrong_ (although, as I said, I can't imagine a context for it, so it's hard to judge it).  I understood the question here to be whether الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وهم is wrong.  You have categorically claimed that it is; based on the evidence presented so far, I'm not nearly as sure as you seem to be.


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## Matat

No, context is not a factor here. One is grammatically correct while the other is not for the reasons discussed. I'm afraid there is nothing more I can say about it.


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## elroy

Very well then.  And I remain uncertain.  Hopefully someone else can shed some light on the matter.


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## Abu Talha

elroy said:


> I haven't suggested that الزيارة أتعبتني أنا وإياهم is _wrong_ (although, as I said, I can't imagine a context for it, so it's hard to judge it).  I understood the question here to be whether لزيارة أتعبتني أنا وهم is wrong.  You have categorically claimed that it is; based on the evidence presented so far, I'm not nearly as sure as you seem to be.


In case it helps the discussion, Wright states:




A Grammar of the Arabic Language V1 and V2

I understand it to mean that إيا in  أتبعني [أنا] وإياهم is required unless one were to repeat the verb أتبعني وأتبعهم.


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## elroy

Thanks!  I don't think that settles it, unfortunately, because those examples don't include هو.  I would never say قتلته وهم.  The question here is about قتلته هو وهم, which your source doesn't address.


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