# Modality in Finnish...



## ThomasK

This is a very broad topic, but I try to cut my questions down to three _(I hardly know any Finnish, but I am just exploring it and am going to study it, er, later on)_: 

1. Can the word 'can' in Finnish mean both _possibility_ and capability? 
2. Can you use the word 'must' for both _induction_ and obligation? 
3. Can you use the word 'may' for both permission and _possibility_? 

I suspect the answers will be positive - or too difficult simply. Any general observations on how you express _modality_ is welcome _[by which I mean that capacity, obligation and permission don't seem to belong to modality in the strict sense]. _


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## sakvaka

Here are the corresponding Finnish modal verbs (I hope I haven't forgotten any):

_voida_ (can), which indicates possibility and capability
_saada _(may, can), which indicates permission
_saattaa_ (may), which indicates possibility
_pitää_ (shall, have to...), which indicates obligation
_täytyy_ (must), which indicates obligation
(+ some more structures, like _on oltava_ = has to be)

What's _induction_? If you're talking about structures such as _You must be tired!_, _täytyy_ is used in that sense (_Sinun täytyy olla väsynyt!_).

NB _Pitää_ and _täytyy_ (and _on oltava_) are special verbs, they take a genitive subject.

_Sinun pitää mennä sinne heti.
Tuon täytyy olla vaarallista.
Talon perustusten on oltava riittävän lujat._

In the middle of the 20th century, the common interpretation was as follows: the infinitive form is the grammatic subject (_mennä_, _olla_) and genitive indicates whose "musting" or "having to" it's all about.

_You must not / may not smoke here. _Täällä ei saa polttaa.


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## ThomasK

Great information - and you were quite right about 'must'! 

So: no difference from Dutch or English, basically; modality and the other 'modes' can be mixed. Too bad, I had hoped Finnish would be... exotic in that respect as well, for example from the point of view of semantics. ;-) _(The genitive is interesting, but not too uncommon, I think; I think one could also say that it has a vague subject or no subject at all, I guess)_

Can the first three be interchanged in some cases? And I gather you refer to different obligations in different ways: as complex as English?


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Great information - and you were quite right about 'must'!
> 
> So: no difference from Dutch or English, basically; modality and the other 'modes' can be mixed. Too bad, I had hoped Finnish would be... exotic in that respect as well, for example from the point of view of semantics. ;-) _(The genitive is interesting, but not too uncommon, I think; I think one could also say that it has a vague subject or no subject at all, I guess)_
> 
> Can the first three be interchanged in some cases? And I gather you refer to different obligations in different ways: as complex as English?


 
It all seems to be Germanic influence, once again.  (_Add one more note to your list of common features!_)

_Voida _and _saattaa_ are practically interchangeable. The latter emphasizes more that you're just guessing but I don't think any notable difference is involved (this doesn't mean it wouldn't exist)_._

However, _saada_ is a different verb for it only means "to be allowed to do sth". By now you may have noticed that _saattaa_ is its causative aspect.

Here are some additional meanings.

_voida_ = (also) to be (concerning health): _Kuinka voit? How are you?_
_saada_ = (also) to get: _Sain omenan veljeltäni. I got an/the apple from my brother._
_saattaa_ = (also) to escort: _Saatan sinut kotiin. I'll walk you home. _can, dare: _Kuinka saatoit tehdä sen? How could (dare) you do it?_
_pitää_ = (also) hold: _Pidä minusta tiukasti kiinni. Hold me tight._ [+ elat.] like: _Pidän tanssimisesta. I like dancing._

Another (very "Finnish", I'd say) modal verb could be _kannattaa_ ("have better, to be worth doing sth"). It is in fact untranslatable and has to do with "the best alternative":

_Olisiko kannattanut kysyä minulta neuvoa ensin? Nyt se on rikki, eikä uutta saa mistään! _(~ "Would it have been worth...")
_Mitä minun kannattaisi tehdä?_

And finally about the usage of _voida_:

In Finnish _voida_ is not used for being able to sense something.

_Näetkö sen? _lit. "Do you see it?" = Can you see it?
_En kuullut, mitä hän sanoi. _= I couldn't hear what he said.


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> [<G] It all seems to be Germanic influence, once again.
> [p ?]_ Voida_ and _saattaa_ are practically interchangeable. The latter emphasizes more that you're just guessing but I don't think any notable difference is involved (this doesn't mean it wouldn't exist)_._
> 
> In Finnish _voida_ is not used for being able to sense something.
> 
> [s] However, _saada_ is a different verb for it only means "to be allowed to do sth". By now you may have noticed that _saattaa_ is its causative aspect.
> 
> [!] Another (very "Finnish", I'd say) modal verb could be _kannattaa_ ("have better, to be worth doing sth"). It is in fact untranslatable and has to do with "the best alternative":


 
[<G] Where is the *Germanic* influence precisely? In the genitive ? 

_[p ?] *saattaa*: _just guessing, you say. So like _can_ vs. _*could*_? 

[s] However, _*saada*_, "to be allowed to do sth", reminds me of German all of a sudden. In *German "dürfte"* suggest you feel more than "könnte", and "dürfen" also means 'to be allowed to' now... 
As for _saattaa:_ would you be able to explain that causivity, which seems to start from permission and end up in possibility ? There must be some link, I guess, as there is 'may' and 'can' in English, where I recognize something similar aspect .

[am] The additional meanings.Would you be able to *link* any of those meanings (*modal and the ones below*) ? 

_voida_ = possibility/ capacity -- > _Kuinka voit? How are you?_ (I only know of 'to go' in such a question, never 'can' -- OR: 'Can you manage ?'
_saada_ = can --> to get: --- No clue at all ! (But then, here it is a main verb, isn't it?)
_saattaa_ = may ---> to escort: --- None again ! 
_pitää_ = have to ---> (also) hold: that reminds me of Dutch 'houden van' (to hold !), and 'je bent gehouden te' could be understood as 'you are supposed/obliged to' 

The use of _*voida*_:you mean that it can't be used? I could imagine something: one senses something or one doesn't (compare: _can you hear _vs_. *can you listen_), or is that not the point ? 

[!] _*kannattaa*_ ("have better, to be worth doing sth") : is it conjugated or does it have no subject at all ? It seems to have to do with gain, my supersmall dictionary tells me.


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## sakvaka

[<G] Rather in the entire system of modal verbs. It is not far from the English one. However, it is important that the Finnish verbs are conjugated (except _täytyä_ - 3rd person _täytyy_, _pitää _and _kannattaa_).

Notice also how we use the conditional mood (infix -isi-):

_Sinun pitäisi lopettaa tupakointi._ You should give up smoking.
_Voisit ottaa huomioon minunkin tunteeni. _You could consider my feelings, too.

[p?] Rather can vs. *might*. I just recalled that "saattaa" is usually translated as "might" in English.

[s] I tried to analyse it like this:

_saada _(to have the permission to some action)
_saada _(to get possession of the action)
_saattaa _(to take/lead the action somewhere)
_saattaa _(to render the action possible, to provide a stable ground for it)

But we're stuck in such philosophical questions that I can't help having doubts if this really is the way how the words are connected.

[am] No idea, unfortunately. The stems are old.

[!] It is similar to _pitää _and _täytyy_: _kannattaa _is used with genitive subject and only in 3rd person singular. But when conjugated, it has a dozen additional meanings, see eg. Wiktionary.


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## akana

Concerning _saada_, I understand the permission aspect, but can you also use it mean "get to" in the following respect:

"Today you get to eat as much candy as you want."
_Tänään saat syödä niin paljon karkkia kuin haluat._

"We get to go to Sarkänniemi next week!"
_Me saamme mennä Särkänniemelle ensi viikolla!
_
The major difference between "get to" and "may" in English is a certain playfulness and excited anticipation. Is that also present with _saada_, or is there another expression that would be better?


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## sakvaka

@ akana: Your first sentence sounds very good and it really conveys the idea you wanted.

However, _saada mennä_ is usually replaced with the special verb _päästä jnnk_ (to get [to] somewhere):

_Me pääsemme (informal language: päästään) Särkänniemelle ensi viikolla!_


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## 880320

sakvaka said:


> However, _saada mennä_ is usually replaced with the special verb _päästä jnnk_ (to get [to] somewhere):
> 
> _Me pääsemme (informal language: päästään) Särkänniemelle ensi viikolla!_


This is good, but I have so far only heard the form "Särkänniemeen". I've also been to the said amusement park.


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## ThomasK

[<G] You mean the modals do not have a special morphological status, I guess; in Dutch and German they are 'preteritopresenti...', I believe, using a former past-tense form in the singular of the present. So they hardly behave in a special way, except for the gen. perhaps, and for some 'deviant' conjugations, as you pointed out. 

As for the conditional mood (infix -_isi_-): that makes the verb softer, less direct, I guess. Is that what you mean ? 

[p?] Rather can vs. *might:* some kind of probability, you mean. Yes, might is the correct word ! 

[s] Thanks for your semantic analyses ! Those are philosophical questions indeed, but they are sometimes interesting to better understand the present meaning(s), thanks! 

[!] _kannattaa _is used with genitive subject: I wonder whether we should not say it is translated as a subject, whereas it is syntactically an object. 

Wiktionary: too bad, but I think this is the first time I see that. Looks very interesting.Thanks again!


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## Gavril

sakvaka said:


> What's _induction_? If you're talking about structures such as _You must be tired!_, _täytyy_ is used in that sense (_Sinun täytyy olla väsynyt!_).



What about _taitaa_? Is it more common to say,

_Taidat olla väsynyt! _"You are probably tired!"
or
_Sinun täytyy olla väsynyt_. "You must be tired!"


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> [<G]
> As for the conditional mood (infix -_isi_-): that makes the verb softer, less direct, I guess. Is that what you mean ?
> 
> [!] _kannattaa _is used with genitive subject: I wonder whether we should not say it is translated as a subject, whereas it is syntactically an object.
> 
> Wiktionary: too bad, but I think this is the first time I see that. Looks very interesting.Thanks again!



[<G] That is correct.

[!] The grammar theories have changed. The last huge revision was in 2004 (by the book _Iso suomen kielioppi_), and concerning our verbs, this is what happened:

*Before *(or at least in the 1950s): _Minun täytyy lähteä._ I must leave.

_Lähteä_ is the grammatical subject. _Minä_ indicates whose "musting" it's all about, and that explains the genitive form.

*Now*: _Minun täytyy lähteä. _

_Täytyy_ is a special verb for it only takes genitive subjects. No explanation why.

I personally prefer the older theories, but it's remarkable how simple it all can become when we just limit ourserves to describing, not explaining.


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## sakvaka

Gavril said:


> What about _taitaa_? Is it more common to say,
> 
> _Taidat olla väsynyt! _"You are probably tired!"
> or
> _Sinun täytyy olla väsynyt_. "You must be tired!"



Oh, certainly! _Taitaa_ is another (modal?) verb, meaning "To me, it seems... / I think this is true".

_Taidan nukahtaa ennen keskiyötä._ I'll probably fall asleep before midnight.

You're right, it is more common to say _taidat olla väsynyt_ than _sinun täytyy olla väsynyt_. The latter construction is mostly used in written language.

_Sinun täytyy olla aika idiootti, jos et ymmärtänyt tuota vieläkään!_ What an idiot you must be if you didn't understand that yet!


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## sakvaka

Third post in a row... If I'm talking too much, please interrupt me!

Now I think it would be good to mention the four modi of the Finnish language, _indicative_, _imperative_, _potentional _and _conditional_. Potentional indicates a possibility, but it's quite rare outside some set phrases (_saanen kysyä..., saanen esitellä itseni_), written standard Finnish - and weather forecasts (_huomiseksi odotettaneen aurinkoista säätä_)!

_Lienet ottanut häneen yhteyttä heti tapahtuman jälkeen. _You have probably contacted him shortly after the event.


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## muhahaa

See this for the usage of genitive in e.g. "luojan kiitos", "minun tekee mieli" etc.:

http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?s=997

Basically, in older Finnish, the genitive was used in the meaning of dative ("give to"), e.g. "Luojan kiitos" = "Thanks to the god", "Minun on kylmä" = "I am cold" -> "It's cold to me". In modern Finnish, "dative genitive" only appears in some frozen expressions.

Apparently Latin also uses dative for the one who must do something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case#Latin). I found this example somewhere: "Liber mihi legendus est." (I have to read a book, "To me is a book to be read")


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## ThomasK

Thanks for all the information! 

I have remained quiet, because - I must admit - I was looking mainly for lexico-semantic variations (which Sakvaka has signalled indeed). These syntactic aspects are not that useful to me - or so it seems at least... Maybe one last question: does Finnish help or hinder you to express modality in English? Is Finnish more complex, do you think?


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## sakvaka

Oops, no replies in almost a month.

In my opinion Finnish is more complex in expressing modality. We have those "simple verbs", can, may, shall, must etc. But then on the other hand there are verbs like _kannattaa_, _taitaa_, _mahtaa_, _joutua_ that are difficult to translate.

_Iso suomen kielioppi_ (§ 1562-1579) summarizes these expressions very well in Finnish. You could also be interested in the special uses (very common!) of _saada_ (§ 1570): it can alter the modality towards a command, a threat or even a practical necessity.

Some particular sayings: _
Saat luvan olla..._ lit. "you get the permission to be..." = "You had better be ... (or else!!!)"
_Sinä saat vielä katua tätä!_ lit. "You will one day be allowed to regret this!" = "You'll regret this one day!"


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## ThomasK

Thanks. I could imagine similar things with our 'mogen' in Dutch: "Je mag best eens wat opletten"... ON the other hand, I wonder whether it is not based on some form of irony at first.


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