# Romani in UK: The impossible we do overnight



## edwardtheconfessor

Hi
Anyone out there know ENGLISH GYPSY???

'The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer'

INTO ENGLISH GYPSY??

('we' means 'you and I'. 'overnight' can be literal or a figure of speech. 'take a bit longer' = need a little more time and effort.
miracles means wonderful amazing things - especailly if life-changing!
'the impossilbe' means that which seems impossible.)

It's a business slogan.

Anyone can help me?

Thank you so much (I will say that in Gypsy, if you tell me how to!)


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## shaloo

Thanks to your post, I got to know many things about Romanchals...

I'm unsure of what you've asked... However, I just thought the thread could be refreshed so that somebody could answer your question 

(And what's "Thank You" in the Gypsy language?? I'm curious to know...!)


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## edwardtheconfessor

shaloo said:


> Thanks to your post, I got to know many things about Romanchals...
> 
> I'm unsure of what you've asked... However, I just thought the thread could be refreshed so that somebody could answer your question
> 
> (And what's "Thank You" in the Gypsy language?? I'm curious to know...!)


 
Thank you shaloo. Nice of you to reply!
Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin.

(That was attached to your post on first reading, but now seems to have disappeared! 
I very much hope that this means 'thank you very much' or 'thank you so much' ?????
Anyone enlighten me here?)

What exactly did you not understand about my question? I thought I had explained it very clearly - I guess I didn't?
Refresh this thread is good....
I'm still looking for that translation.

Anyone out there feel knowledgeable and helpful?

Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin
[_Please correct if I am wrong!_]

- edwardtheconfessor


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## Au101

"Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin" sounds distinctly Japanese to me. 

Hopefully a moderator will not tell me off for this post, I am merely looking to clarify, my apologies for not being directly relevant to the thread. But am I right in saying that you are requesting a translation of the phrase:

'The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer'

Into Romani (UK? I take it by that you mean a British Romani dialect.) That is what I took it to mean, anyway.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Au101 said:


> "Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin" sounds distinctly Japanese to me.
> 
> Hopefully a moderator will not tell me off for this post, I am merely looking to clarify, my apologies for not being directly relevant to the thread. But am I right in saying that you are requesting a translation of the phrase:
> 
> 'The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer'
> 
> Into Romani (UK? I take it by that you mean a British Romani dialect.) That is what I took it to mean, anyway.


 
Correct!  Thank you Au101. Think you can help?
Cheers       - edwardtheconfessor


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## sokol

You will have to choose a dialect because in the UK several Romani dialects are spoken (Anglorumani and Welsh-Romani being the most important ones it seems - you will find information on the Wiki pages I linked to).

Anyway, I am sorry but I can't help with an Anglorumani translation; I only have a very fragmentary knowlegde of an Austrian Gypsy dialect (of Burgenland Roman).


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## edwardtheconfessor

Hmmmm. Thank you, sokol, for some valuable pointers. Having followed your links, I see that Angloromani is not (I hope I don't offend!) an authentic or 'pure' Romani and uses a lot of English words too, as well as English syntax, phraeseology and grammar. It seems, in very truth, to be more like the equivalent (although Indo-Aryan) of a West Indian or African creole or pidgin.
That is not what I seek.
Welsh-romani, on the other hand, seems much more promising!
But it looks like I'm going to have a hard time finding a speaker or writer of it!
(Unless there's anyone out there - if so, then do speak out here!)

I have a dictionary of words and phrases called simply 'English-Gypsy: Gypsy-English' with translations (no grammar, sentence construction, guidance on prepositions, adverbs, conjuntion, tenses, conjugations, case ... not a great help, in short).
This dictionary professes to be only for Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian and Albanian dialect gyspy (Southern Balkan, in other words). 
Hmmmmm.

I did find on the net, while researching this some time ago, a facsimile of what can best be described as a 'scholarly' treatise on 'English Gypsy' with a lot of info as well as some vocabularies.
However, it was written in the nineteenth century (and I now realise that 'authentic Romani' began to die out in most of the UK about that time) - correct me if I'm wrong here? ...
If anyone out there has a good knowledge of this 'old' English or British Romani? Good enough to translate ????
...... Well, it was just a thought!

How good is your 'fragmentary' knowledge of Austrian Gypsy dialect (or Burgenland Roman), sokol? You might still be able to help with that?

Anyone else out there? Still 'desparately seeking' ........

Cheers -edwardtheconfessor


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## sokol

edwardtheconfessor said:


> ... I see that Angloromani is not (I hope I don't offend!) an authentic or 'pure' Romani and uses a lot of English words too, as well as English syntax, phraeseology and grammar ...


Well, actually this is the case for most if not all Gypsy dialects.
In fact they mainly differ through loans and phonetical influences of their 'guest languages' or whatever term you consider to be politically correct here. 

(Still, Gypsy dialects aren't pidgin languages - a pidgin is something entirely different, see for example the creole/patois/pidgin thread in EHL, and some other pidgin related threads there.)

Please note, if you want to use a 'pure Romani' dialect for your slogan you won't get one, not even with Welsh-Romani.
And the next important thing you need to take care of: I take it you want that Gypsy communities in Great Britain will react positively to that slogan. But speakers of other dialects than Welsh ones might react ambivalent or even very negative.

As you say that this is a 'business slogan' I think it is obvious that you want to choose a wording which is accepted by local communities - if possible then of all local Gypsy communities, or at least the majority. If you want to make sure of that I'd say you'd be good advised to approach local Gypsies (and speakers of different dialects, of course).

Just look at it like that: what would an Englishman think if a Russian company advertises its products with a slogan which is clearly in Scots?
The very same effect *might *be caused if you use a Welsh dialect - I am only guessing here obviously as I don't know the Gypsy communities of UK at all.

Your Balkanian gypsy sources are 'more original' (that is, significantly closer to the Indoaryan 'Proto'-Romanes), but these dialects also will sound distinctly foreign to British Gypsies.

To cut the long story short, you really should contact locals.

By the way, some people tried to formulate a Romanes standard language but to my knowledge they failed, the problem being that this standard wasn't acceptable for most communities. They tried to use it at Gypsy congresses, and they probably still do, but local communities in Austria for the most part oppose those tendencies.
So there really isn't a 'standardised' Gypsy language - or at least, not an accepted one.

(And sorry, but my fragmentary knowledge of Burgenland Roman really is *very *fragmentary, and anyway has way too many local influences which would sound awfully foreign to any UK Gypsy.)


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## L'irlandais

edwardtheconfessor said:


> Anyone else out there? Still 'desparately seeking' ........
> 
> Cheers -edwardtheconfessor


Hullo Edward,
Perhaps the following link might be of use to you in your search :  The website contains amongst other goodies a Glossary of Romani terms.





> The many different dialects derived from *Romani* have all evolved from the the Danubian dialect it would seem.


You say this is for use in the context of _a business slogan_, do you mind my asking what do you hope to sell to such a diverse audience?


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## edwardtheconfessor

Thank you, L'irlandais, for the link. Most instersting as a bit of (very enlightening) background info - also some fascinating grammar hints and a very few intruguing vocab exampes.  None of this, however, opens the door even a crack, I'm afraid, to getting an actual translation. Perhaps I am seeking the impossible (as in my slogan)?

I have taken advice from previous posters and tried to seek some modicum of feedback from rumani-speaking communities in UK. Very difficult. Not too easy to find that many authentic rumani communities in this country now (as opposed to other kinds of traveller communities and 'tinkers' - a term of mild abuse which true romanis use themselves of other travellers - esp those of Irish (but not rumani) descent).

It is now clear to me that the rumani languages (there appear to be local dialects, even of Anglo-rumani) being largely spoken languages (and not often written down) are dynamic and changing.  However, I am advised that a reasonably acceptable and not too dated form of the langauge does exist and can be nailed down sufficiently to permit of this translation.  I have not yet found, alas, someone who can do it though!

I am now clear that this would borrow heavily on modern English grammar, syntax, phraseology, sentence construction - but contain mostly authentic Anglo-rumani words.  And this is what I seek!

As to your question about what I am selling: well, I am a Mental and Spiritual Healer.  I'm also a very keen amateur philologist, and this is the reason for my interest.  If anyone who is kindly offering to help me wishes further clatification as to what exactly I mean by the slogan, then I will be most happy to oblige!

Please keep trying anyone who can help. I much appreciate the advice and guidance thus far from several posters.  If we keep at it, we'll crack this one - eventually; I'd put money on it!

- edwardtheconfessor


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## shaloo

edwardtheconfessor said:


> Thank you shaloo. Nice of you to reply!
> Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin.
> 
> (That was attached to your post on first reading, but now seems to have disappeared!
> I very much hope that this means 'thank you very much' or 'thank you so much' ?????
> Anyone enlighten me here?)
> 
> Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin
> [_Please correct if I am wrong!_]
> 
> - edwardtheconfessor


 
Wow, this thread is really interesting, as I keep discovering new things along!
Yes Edward, "Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin" is Japanese, as Au101 has rightly pointed out. It means "Hello! I'm Indian". I put that as my sig when I just started learning Japanese 
I'm sorry, if that misled your quest....!


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## edwardtheconfessor

shaloo said:


> Wow, this thread is really interesting, as I keep discovering new things along!
> Yes Edward, "Kon'nichi wa! Watasushi Indojin" is Japanese, as Au101 has rightly pointed out. It means "Hello! I'm Indian". I put that as my sig when I just started learning Japanese
> I'm sorry, if that misled your quest....!


 
WELL, thank you, shaloo, for clearing that up!

EVERYONE ELSE: Hey - I'm still looking for a translation in Anglo-Rumani - any offers????
[I'll wait ... whatever it takes - I'm not giving up on this one!]

- edwardtheconfessor


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## edwardtheconfessor

edwardtheconfessor said:


> Thank you, L'irlandais, for the link. Most instersting as a bit of (very enlightening) background info - also some fascinating grammar hints and a very few intruguing vocab examples. None of this, however, opens the door even a crack, I'm afraid, to getting an actual translation. Perhaps I am seeking the impossible (as in my slogan)?
> 
> I have taken advice from previous posters and tried to seek some modicum of feedback from rumani-speaking communities in UK. Very difficult. Not too easy to find that many authentic rumani communities in this country now (as opposed to other kinds of traveller communities and 'tinkers' - a term of mild abuse which true romanis use themselves of other travellers - esp those of Irish (but not rumani) descent).
> 
> It is now clear to me that the rumani languages (there appear to be local dialects, even of Anglo-rumani) being largely spoken languages (and not often written down) are dynamic and changing. However, I am advised that a reasonably acceptable and not too dated form of the langauge does exist and can be nailed down sufficiently to permit of this translation. I have not yet found, alas, someone who can do it though!
> 
> I am now clear that this would borrow heavily on modern English grammar, syntax, phraseology, sentence construction - but contain mostly authentic Anglo-rumani words. And this is what I seek!
> 
> As to your question about what I am selling: well, I am a Mental and Spiritual Healer. I'm also a very keen amateur philologist, and this is the reason for my interest. If anyone who is kindly offering to help me wishes further clatification as to what exactly I mean by the slogan, then I will be most happy to oblige!
> 
> _Please_ keep trying _anyone_ who can help. I much appreciate the advice and guidance thus far from several posters. If we keep at it, we'll crack this one - eventually; I'd put money on it!
> 
> - edwardtheconfessor


 
"The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer"
[Anglo rumani translation ??????????????]

Well, I'm *STILL* looking .. and I'm *NOT* giving up on this one!!!
Anyone out there? Anyone out there at all ???????

 - edwardtheconfessor


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## mugibil

Honestly, I think "the impossible" will only become possible if you contact some English or Welsh Roma organization through their website. Very few non-Romani people learn Romani, what you need is a native speaker, and native speakers of Romani unfortunately tend to be in poor social conditions, so they hardly ever visit general-purpose language forums. But Anglo-Romani in particular was really more like an English dialect spoken with some Romani words in it, so I'm afraid your slogan would sound closer to English proper than you want; Welsh Romani would be more "different". 

Here is my pathetic attempt at a Bulgarian Sofia Erli Romani translation (I know it's useless to you, but it could be a starter and be informative as a comparison if others add other versions): E našajutnones keras ekhe rakjake, ašal e namijenge mangel pes cikno po-lungo ciros. The <j>s are pronounced like "y", the <c>s are like "ts", the stress is on the last syllables not counting the /ke/s and /ge/s. This would probably sound terribly incorrect to a native speaker - I had only managed to learn some very few basics before I forgot even them, so I've arrived even at this sentence through looking up a dictionary and a grammar. Hopefully my knowledge will be more reliable in a year or so.


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## mugibil

I now recall there are some Romani people who regularly contribute to Wikipedia. I'm not sure any are Welsh Roma, but still, you could ask them through the Wikipedia reference desk.


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## edwardtheconfessor

mungu said:


> .
> 
> Here is my pathetic attempt at a Bulgarian Sofia Erli Romani translation (I know it's useless to you, but it could be a starter and be informative as a comparison if others add other versions): E našajutnones keras ekhe rakjake, ašal e namijenge mangel pes cikno po-lungo ciros. The <j>s are pronounced like "y", the <c>s are like "ts", the stress is on the last syllables not counting the /ke/s and /ge/s. This would probably sound terribly incorrect to a native speaker - I had only managed to learn some very few basics before I forgot even them, so I've arrived even at this sentence through looking up a dictionary and a grammar. Hopefully my knowledge will be more reliable in a year or so.


 
mungu : gestona ! (That, I believe, is Anglo-Rumani for 'thank you'!) ;
I believe we are getting somewhere at last! I too have now (inspired by you) done some intensive online dictionary research - what do you think of this? :-

*"E butyengis-boro, bute hum kedo cana, anglo can-en-collico sorlo; bursy-encharoseskoes b'e-g beti bitti komi chiros."*


(If this is any good, it literally means:-

'The work-things great-big, will be done/made soon, before the sun of tomorrow morning; divine works take a little piece more time.'

However, like yourself, I can't be sure about the grammar: the _'hum'_ ('will be'; I'm not sure if that is correct conjugation (for third person plural future tense) i.e. '*(THEY) will be'* - though it certainly means 'will be'.
Also, I'm not sure if the past participle '_kedo_' (done/made) has to have a pluralised suffix and whether it has to agree in gender; indeed, I'm not sure if Anglo-rumani has kept any of the noun genders - modern English, of course has disacrded most of them. I note that Latin languages, like Italian (which I speak reasonably well) DOES require agreement, of both gender and number, of the past participle with its subject noun where this follows verbs like 'to be', 'to do' 'to make' but NOT for the verb 'to have'.

Also: do adjectives (like _'boro', 'bute'_ : 'great, big') come AFTER the nouns to which they refer, and, again would there have to be gender and number agreement ?- as there is in most languages but which, again, English ditched long ago. Hmmmm.

I also think the _'b'e-g'_ bit may be a bit dodgey - it means 'take' (again, not sure about the conjugation, though), but does it mean 'take' in the sense of 'take up/use up'? .. (as in time - _'chiros'/'ciros'_... we pretty much agree about that word!)

Your thoughts?????

Anyone else have any thoughts or hints on any of all of this? Please speak forth!!! Enlighten us!!!

edwardtheconfessor


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## mugibil

Is it Anglo-Romani or Welsh Romani you're trying to do now? Anglo-Romani, being a "mixed" language, really has the same grammar as English, you just switch around some of the words - enough to make the sentence incomprehensible to outsiders. So calques like "take time" are OK. You can see some samples here (p.18):http://faculty.washington.edu/wassink/2010%20sketches/ANGLO_ROMANI.pdf and here http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/downloads/2/Matras%20et%20al._Angloromani%20.pdf. Only fragments are recorded from the original English Romani dialect that had its own grammar (though older sources sometimes refer to the "real", original form as "Anglo-Romani" as well). Welsh Romani, on the other hand, has a grammar of its own, like Sofia Erli Romani. 

I believe that adjectives come before nouns in most or all forms of "real" Romani, and they certainly do so in English, hence in Anglo-Romani as well. You're right that most (probably all) varieties of "real" Romani would decline adjectives and participles by gender, like the Romance languages. They also have grammatical case, unlike most Romance languages, but like, say, German or Latin. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect any of them to have a synthetic (one-word) future form for "to be", although it could be that my memory does not serve me well. 

I couldn't venture to tinker with the translation into Welsh Romani or the extinct and poorly attested "pure" English Romani, because I just don't have any knowledge of or experience with their grammars (unlike Sofia Erli grammar, which I feel relatively familiar with; what I lack there is practice, idioms and vocabulary). But as for Anglo-Romani, it looks like it wouldn't be that hard to construct a relatively passable sentence by just mixing Romani words into the English text. Judging from the examples in the link I gave you and this dictionary http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/angloromani/dictionary.html, I guess one possible Anglo-Romani rendition could be something like: So that can kek be kered, mandi kers it anglo sowla. Miracles (Midevel kerepens) can lel a bitti more chiros. Literally "What that can not be done, me does it before tomorrow. Miracles (God workings) can take a bit more time". 
If you want to stick to your version but make it Anglo-Romani, it may profit from a little moving around. So instead of:
"E butyengis-boro, bute hum kedo cana, anglo can-en-collico sorlo; bursy-encharoseskoes b'e-g beti bitti komi chiros."
I suppose it could look like this (sticking to forms close to yours whenever I can find them in that dictionary):
"The boro butti will be kered kona sig, anglo the kam of kolliko sawlo; midevel's buttis lel a bitti kommi chiros."
Still, it's likely that this does not correspond to any specific local dialect. That dictionary shows a lot of variation for each word, and we don't know which ones belong to the same local variety.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Hello mungu, we meet again! (Sorry for the late response to your post!)
Your erudition and illumination in this is VERY much appreciated!

*"So that kek be kered, mandi kersit anglo sowla; midevel kerepens can lel a bitti more chiros." ....*

Hmmmm! This hangs together nicely! (I hope I have the spelling all correct here!) I also like the use of 'midevel kerepens' to denote 'things of God' (as 'miracles'; which is probably closer to my original intended meaning than the 'borrowed' English word 'miracles' .. cf 'wunder' in original Anglo-Saxon and 'wondres' in Middle English (e.g. Bunyan) - although there was not an _overtly _religious intent here!)

ONE PROBLEM: 'me does it': well, no! .. my original intent here was more 'we do' in the sense of 'we' meaning 'you and I' or 'you and I together' (such a distinction in the first person plural is possible, for example, I believe, in Old Norse).

*"So that kek be kered, mandi kersit anglo sowla; midevel kerepens can lel a bitti more chiros."* 
_How can we modify this to take account of the intention:_
_"The impossibe we (*you and I*) do overnight .." ????_

_Any suggestions?_

Many thanks: *Gestona *(I believe that this means 'thank you' in one dialect of Anglo-rumani?) ....
- edwardtheconfessor


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## searcher123

Can anyone tell me what is the relationship between this post and *Indo-Iranian Languages *forums*    
*


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## panjabigator

Wikipedia does classify it under the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language tree.


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## searcher123

panjabigator said:


> Wikipedia does classify it under the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language tree.



Thanks to answer


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## mugibil

> "So that kek be kered, mandi kersit anglo sowla; midevel kerepens can lel a bitti more chiros."
> How can we modify this to take account of the intention:
> "The impossibe we (you and I) do overnight .." ????
> 
> Any suggestions?



Well, judging from the texts here [http://faculty.washington.edu/wassink/2010 sketches/ANGLO_ROMANI.pdf] (the Lord's Prayer in particular), they pretty much used the English word "we", so there's no problem replacing "mandi" with "we": "we kers it anglo sowla". If you don't want it to be that transparent, this [http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/angloromani/dictionary.html?page=3] dictionary indicates that the words "ammi" and "wovva" have also been attested for "we". ("Ammi" corresponds to the original Romani word for "we"; "wovva" should mean "other", so its use for "we" is pretty puzzling). There is no distinction between inclusive and exclusive "we" even in true Romani, so there is nothing to worry about in that respect.



> Gestona (I believe that this means 'thank you' in one dialect of Anglo-rumani?)


Well, this [http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/angloromani/dictionary.html] dictionary doesn't mention it. One form of "proper" European Romani would be "Parikerav tut", and I see that different variations or reduced versions of this phrase have indeed been attested in Britain, too: [http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/angloromani/dictionary.html].

By the way, since last time, I've found out that even Welsh Romani is now extinct (it ceased to be spoken at some point in the second half of the 20th century), so I was wrong to suggest that you should try asking a native speaker of it for assistance. Some form of Anglo-Romani would appear to remain in use, from what I can gather, but I would guess that nowadays it's even more anglicised than the text we've produced in this thread.


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## edwardtheconfessor

*"So that kek be kered, mandi kersit anglo sowla; midevel kerepens can lel a bitti more chiros."*
['The impossible we do overnight; miracles take a bit longer.']

OKAY, mungu (and everyone else) if you're still there? - Thanks for all the help. Unless you (or anyone else) has yet more knowledge to shed upon this, I'm gonna send this on its way (to be put on my website) as a valid Welsh-rumani translation (obsolete dialect or not!). Okay?


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## mugibil

Three things.

1.  What we've produced is not Welsh Romani, but a form of Anglo-Romani. Proper Welsh Romani would be a lot harder and pretty different. 

2. The sentence was: "So that *can* kek be kered, mandi kers it anglo sowla. Midevel kerepens can lel a bitti more chiros". I.e., don't drop the "can" (or "kan", if you prefer a more foreign look), otherwise I don't think it would make sense at all. 

3. If you absolutely want it to say "we" in the plural, you should replace "mandi" with "we" or with "ami".

BTW, just for the record, I should correct my initial attempt at a translation into Sofia Erli. I wrote "E našajutnones keras ekhe rakjake, ašal e namijenge mangel pes cikno po-lungo ciros", but it should be corrected to "O našajutno keras ekhe rakjake, ašal o namija mangel pes cikno po-lungo ciros". That's because accusative form of the inanimate nouns coincides with the nominative, instead of using the usual accusative endings. Also, maybe I should replace"našajutno" with something like "so našti te kerel pes" - "what can't be done" (I seem to remember that šaj "can, be possible" is replaced by "ašti" in the dialect, so the construction našajutno for "impossible", albeit found in dictionaries, could be a loan from Vlach Romani). Thus,"So našti te kerel pes, ame keras ekhe rakjake. Ašal o namija mangel pes cikno po-lungo ciros".


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