# dago



## Thomas1

I was wondering who do you refer to calling someone a dago?

I'm especially interrested if thre are any local differences in use of this word and also would like to know if you find it offensive and disparaging?

If you know of any similar words to the one in query, please include it in your post.

Any comments will be more than welcome. 

Thanks in advance,
Thomas


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## mnzrob

According to Merriam-Webster:_ usually disparaging_ *:* a person of Italian or Spanish birth or descent 

I haven't heard this word in many years, so either it's used a lot more where i grew up (Chicago), or it's not used very often anymore. I think it's sort of racist though, so I wouldn't use it. 
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Rob


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## panjandrum

mnzrob's answer will do for me too.
I haven't heard dago for a very long time, it's only use is to be deliberately disparaging.


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## Thomas1

Therefore, would you say it's not used because it is obsolete or it is a kind of word that people don't use since it's quite offensive?


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## Brioche

_Dago_ (from the name Diego, apparently) was once a common, disparaging name for Italians in Australia.

It's been out of fashion for many years.


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## panjandrum

I suspect that dago is not obsolete.
I would not surprise me to find that it is still used by those who choose to be deliberately offensive.


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## Thomas1

Brioche said:
			
		

> _Dago_ (from the name Diego, apparently) was once a common, disparaging name for Italians in Australia.
> 
> It's been out of fashion for many years.


Was/is it used as a disparaging name only for Italians or for, say, Hispanic people too?


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## Brioche

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> Was/is it used onle as a disparaging name only for Italians or for, say, Hispanic people too?


 
In the 50s and 60s there was sizable influx of Italian immigrants to Australia, and at that time they were called Dagos. They were the largest group of non-English speaking immigrants.

Australia has never had large numbers of immigrants from Spain, or other Spanish-speaking countries so we didn't need a name for them.


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## river

*Dago*, as I understand it, is a derogatory term refering only to Italians.


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## panjandrum

Sooner or later the thought police will track me down for all the strange things I look up in the dictionary.
Dago was originally South-Western US for Spaniard, thence to Portugese and Italian.  Believed to be a corruption of Diego.

I feel, like river, that it is now mainly Italian.  I wonder did it acquire a "mainly Italian" sense during WWII?


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## Thomas1

river said:
			
		

> *Dago*, as I understand it, is a derogatory term refering only to Italians.


This is exactly what I want to know. I looked up the word in a few dictionaries and almost each gives the same meaning but the people whom the term is addressed to are of different nationalities, so I thought there must have been local differences.


Question to all:
If you were to use the term, which I doubt, of course; would you use it only with reference to Italians?


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## foxfirebrand

I'm surprised by Panj's information, though I knew the term was a shortened form of _Diego_-- I assumed it was a term of European origin because they seem to use it for both Spanish and Italian people.  Like River, I've only ever heard it used as a synonym for _Wop_ in AE-- the insulting term for non-Italian dagoes is _spic_, derived from _Hispanic_.  

Both _dago_ and _wop_ are used to insult or speak disparagingly about Italians, but like many such words they can be used in jocular fashion among friends.  At least that's what my Guinea-goomba friends tell me.  Like I say, they're a jocular lot, so maybe they're putting me on about that-- I'm not about to put it to the test.

Both _wop_ and _goomba_ come from the dialect many Italian-Americans learn at home, and that adds a layer of complexity to the use of the words in AE.  In English-speaking contexts, for example, _wop_ is slightly more insulting than _dago_-- but in a bilingual setting the reverse is true because of the ethnic origin of the word.  _Goomba_ likewise, except that in inoffensive use, the word is more likely to be stressed on the last syllable, and because it has connotations of "countryman" it can be used with a personal possessive pronoun.  

"Yeah I know Enzo, he's my goombà" is like saying "he's my homie."  "He's my GOOMba" sounds a sour note, like you're trying to be cute and use the kind of Mafia-referential entertainment-industry words that many find offensive.

Now that's a pretty nuanced line between friendly and offensive, and there are other such cases with all these terms.  So my advice about their usage is the same thing it always seems to boil down to, once we've hashed over this topic.  It's best to take care, listen and learn for a long while-- then avoid using "comic-disparaging" terms unless you're a comfortably-accepted member of the group you're in, and your friendly intentions are beyond doubt.
.


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## davidl243

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> I'm especially interrested if thre are any local differences in use of this word and also would like to know if you find it offensive and disparaging?
> 
> If you know of any similar words to the one in query, please include it in your post.


 
Off the top of my head i can think of about 7 or 8 offensive terms for people of different nationalities...It is rather shameful that we have so many - are there as many in AE? Or in Spanish? If anyone wants me to list them i will, but they are words i wouldn't write unless asked to! 
For the record, i still hear 'Dago' used quite a lot, but almost without exception in an ironic sense - ie not actually being offensive but making fun of people who use it as an offensive term. Unfortunately many of the others i refer too are in far too common usage...


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## Sabelotodo

I'll never forget the first time I heard the word _dago.  _I was watching an episode of _Fawlty Towers_.  John Cleese's character, Basil Fawlty, called his employee Manuel a "dago dodo."  It was definitely an insult and Manuel is definitley not Italian--they are always saying, "He's from Barcelona."


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## bhcesl

My wife is a dago.   We joke around about it; she is not offended in that context. She is Italian and knows that words only as it refers to Italians. I've never heard it in the other contexts, but I am relatively young so I have not seen it go through its various stages of evolution. Indeed, I am not a fan of racial slurs in general, so my knowledge of its current use is limited as well.

Glad to be of no help whatsoever.


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## moodywop

Both _wop _and _goombah_ were originally words from my dialect, Neapolitan.

_Wop, _which many people erroneously think stands for "without official papers", when pronounced with an American "o" sound is a perfect representation of how the word _guappo_ is pronounced in Neapolitan(the final vowel being elided). This is also the etymology put forward in _OED. _

_Guappo_ was a Neapolitan borrowing from Spanish (_guapo) _during the period of Spanish rule in Naples. G_uappo _is nowadays mostly used jocularly to refer to a guy who puts on macho airs and affects an "I couldn't care less" attitude. In the backstreets of Naples you can still hear guys shouting _Uè guapp' _at each other jocularly. My guess is that Americans heard immigrants use this word and applied it to all Italian immigrants.

_Goombah_, when pronounced with a stress on _bah _(as Fox has pointed out) is once again a faithful representation of the way _cumpa'_ is pronounced in Neapolitan. _Cumpa' _is short for _cumpare(compare _in It. = godfather), the final syllable being dropped in the vocative in Neapolitan. It is used exactly as _mate _is in BE - as a form of address between guys. In Neapolitan _c _sounds like _g _and _p _lik_e b._

I hope I haven't bored you. The Neapolitan dialect is particularly dear to me. Like many people from middle-class families I was forbidden to speak the dialect at home and at school. I have since made an effort to speak it on a regular basis although _napoletani veraci(_genuine Neapolitans) tell me my accent is still not quite right . Italian is basically a literary language and has developed as a living language relatively recently. When you feel you want to express yourself more freely or emotionally you resort to dialect.


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## Hakro

In Finnish, more than 40 years ago, we used to have ha slang word borrowed directly from English 'dago', although its was pronunciation was just a bit different, not much. Besides the Italians and Spanish, it covered all the latin peoples (South America, etc.), the Greeks and possibly other Mediterranean people. It was absolutely offensive. My generation may remember the word but, fortunately, today's youth has no idea what it means.


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## se16teddy

We don't much use terms like 'Latino' or 'Hispanic' in the UK.  

To me, Dagos are Spanish, Wops Italian and Frogs French.    

According to Collins English Dictionary
- dago (derogatory) is a member of a Latin race esp. Spanish or Portuguese
- wop (derogatory) is a member of a Latin people, esp. an Italian
- Frog is a deroatory word for a French person.  

All these words should be used with great care and could cause offence.  It is of course open to members of the groups in question to use the words themselves in an attempt to reclaim the word for themselves and give it positive connotations (compare the use of the word 'queer' by homosexuals).


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## emma42

Moodywop, your post was really interesting and not in the least "boring".

I totally agree with those who have said that these words should be used with great care, even if the company you are with uses them.  I know that my best friend and I use the most (to some) appalling and vulgar language amongst ourselves, enjoying the freedom and the overturning of taboos.  However, if someone I did not know well were to use them I might well be extremely offended.


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## french4beth

To confirm the above posts, from wikipedia.com:


> In American English, the term *dago* refers to Italians and Italian Americans, especially recent immigrants and others not fully assimilated into Anglo-American culture. Although more commonly used in the early 20th century, "dago" is now considered quite offensive.
> Dago is also a derogatory term used in British English to refer to people of Spanish, Italian, or Portuguese origin. It is derived from "Diego", a Spanish name equivalent to English "Jacob".


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## GavinW

french4beth said:
			
		

> To confirm the above posts, from wikipedia.com:


 
When I was at school, 30 years in Britain, dago meant any of the Latin and/or Mediterranean peoples (incl Greeks), especially when (or because) they had dark skin. It was the dark skin that clinched it, that triggered the racial slur.


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## GenJen54

Via circumstance of age or geography, dago is completely unfamiliar to me. 

I am, however, familiar with wop and goombah (as well as "guido").

I was especially glad to read Moodywop's post about the origins of these words.


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## ingle85

another word,referred to dago,is wog.in australia most people say wog....I remember when a white boy called my boyfriend "wog"....I was so pissed off!


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## ewhite

I have never heard "dago" applied to Spaniards or Latinos; it's always been an insulting term for Italians.

As far as ethnic insults towards Spaniards, I don't think there have ever been enough of them in New York to warrant their own fighting word. Back when I was young, "Spic" was reserved for the Caribbean Latinos who made up the bulk of our Spanish-speaking population.


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## se16teddy

ingle85 said:
			
		

> another word,referred to dago,is wog.in australia most people say wog....I remember when a white boy called my boyfriend "wog"....I was so pissed off!


 
In Britain, 'wog' was used (and unfortunately may still occasionally be used) of people of black African, black Caribbean or South Asian appearance. It is EXTREMELY offensive, far more offensive than 'dago', 'wop' or 'frog', and always implies contempt.  (Sorry, I thought I'd better post this warning though we are getting off the subject).


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## Brioche

ingle85 said:
			
		

> another word,referred to dago,is wog.in australia most people say wog....I remember when a white boy called my boyfriend "wog"....I was so pissed off!


 
Wog in Australia can mean Greek or Italian, 
and is still in use among younger people.
It is mildly offensive.

In Australia, wog can also mean a minor illness, such as a cold. 
It is not offensive in this context.

This use of the word can get Australians into trouble in Britain.
Imagine an Australian lass ringing her British boss to explain her absence:  _"I can't come to work to-day - I'm in bed with a wog."_

In Australia, Dago was just for Italians, and according to my kids, not used anymore by the younger generation.


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## suzi br

I would agree that wog has become a VERY offensive term in the UK these days.

I wouldn't imagine anyone English using it for a European person as it is linked to golliwog, a type of toy and image used by a jam company:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/02/uk_black_representation_in_advertising/html/8.stm


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## diegodbs

> Dago is also a derogatory term used in British English to refer to people of Spanish, Italian, or Portuguese origin. It is derived from "Diego", a Spanish name equivalent to English "Jacob".


 
My own name is Diego and I could be considered a dago (I was born in Spain) by some intolerant and not very intelligent/cultured people. I don't mind if some people can't pronounce my name properly and I am addressed to as diego, di-e-go, di-ei-gou or dai-go.....as long as they love me.

Some years ago I spent a week in the Lake District and I went to Castlerigg Stone Circle near Keswick. The National Trust-English Heritage had written there that the stone circle had been erected by Iberians coming from the Iberian peninsula 2700 years before Christ. 

For those interested in history:



> In around 2700 BC a newculture arrived in Britain, often referred to as the Beaker culture. Beaker pottery appears in the Mount Pleasant Phase (2700 BC - 2000 BC) along with flat axes and burial practices of inhumation. The megalithic phases of Stonehenge date to this period
> Believed to be of Iberian origin (modern day Spain and Portugal), Beaker techniques brought to Britain the skill of refining metal.


 
I wouldn't be offended if someone considers me a dago. Do they really know that perhaps they are insulting their own history and heritage? I am sure they don't, intelligence and intolerance don't seem to get on very well.


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## scotu

moodywop said:
			
		

> Both _wop _and _goombah_ were originally words from my dialect, Neapolitan.
> 
> _Wop, _which many people erroneously think stands for "without official papers", when pronounced with an American "o" sound is a perfect representation of how the word _guappo_ is pronounced in Neapolitan(the final vowel being elided). This is also the etymology put forward in _OED. _
> 
> _Guappo_ was a Neapolitan borrowing from Spanish (_guapo) _during the period of Spanish rule in Naples. G_uappo _is nowadays mostly used jocularly to refer to a guy who puts on macho airs and affects an "I couldn't care less" attitude. In the backstreets of Naples you can still hear guys shouting _Uè guapp' _at each other jocularly. My guess is that Americans heard immigrants use this word and applied it to all Italian immigrants.
> 
> _Goombah_, when pronounced with a stress on _bah _(as Fox has pointed out) is once again a faithful representation of the way _cumpa'_ is pronounced in Neapolitan. _Cumpa' _is short for _cumpare(compare _in It. = godfather), the final syllable being dropped in the vocative in Neapolitan. It is used exactly as _mate _is in BE - as a form of address between guys. In Neapolitan _c _sounds like _g _and _p _lik_e b._
> 
> I hope I haven't bored you. The Neapolitan dialect is particularly dear to me. Like many people from middle-class families I was forbidden to speak the dialect at home and at school. I have since made an effort to speak it on a regular basis although _napoletani veraci(_genuine Neapolitans) tell me my accent is still not quite right . Italian is basically a literary language and has developed as a living language relatively recently. When you feel you want to express yourself more freely or emotionally you resort to dialect.


Interesting...*Guapo* in spanish is "handsome"


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## foxfirebrand

scotu said:
			
		

> Interesting...*Guapo* in spanish is "handsome"


Yes, but also "cute," and there's an expression "don't get cute" in AE that I believe has an equivalent in _dialetto_.  In both cases it's used to describe smirky sarcastic behavior typical of "juvenile-delinquent" (1950s) and "gangsta-wannabe" types.  "Smart-ass" is another very similar case where a word with a positive connotation is used ironically.

In Naples, at least when I lived there (in my early teens), _guappo_ as a noun referred to cocky young males.  It was applied in a derogatory but often weirdly affectionate way, and of course we picked up on it and greeted each other with "Oe, guapp'," just as Moodywop pointed out.  We'd also say _"stu guapp'" _in a jocularly insulting way, the way you'd say _"asshole!"_ to a compadre of yours, just to let him know he was acting like one.

I can't say how the word has evolved in more than 45 years (ouch!), but with Moodywop around I don't have to hazard a guess.

Like most of these borderline-offensive, sometimes affectionate words, context is everything-- and even more important is the tone of the person using the term.  That's what discloses his/r intent-- and if your intent is to insult someone unlike yourself, both _wop_ and _dago_ do the job just fine.
.


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## diegodbs

> Originally Posted by *scotu*
> _Interesting...*Guapo* in spanish is "handsome"_


 
Although that word originally meant something related to "despicable, ugly, vile", later on it meant "brave" and now it means "handsome".


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## moodywop

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Although that word originally meant something related to "despicable, ugly, vile", later on it meant "brave" and now it means "handsome".


 
Diego

I suppose that Neapolitan _guappo _must be derived from _guapo _in its "brave" sense. Any idea when the meaning changed? (I don't know if there is a Spanish equivalent of the OED). Apparently the "vile" sense is derived from Latin _vappa_ (wine gone flat).



			
				foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> In Naples, at least when I lived there (in my early teens), _guappo_ as a noun referred to cocky young males. It was applied in a derogatory but often weirdly affectionate way, and of course we picked up on it and greeted each other with "Oe, guapp'," just as Moodywop pointed out. We'd also say _"stu guapp'" _in a jocularly insulting way, the way you'd say _"asshole!"_ to a compadre of yours, just to let him know he was acting like one.


 
Fox

It never ceases to amaze me (and move me) how vivid your memories of Naples are. There is some deep-seated affection there. No wonder you sometimes join forces with me as _dialectorum defensor_ at IE.

I wouldn't call _guappo _derogatory or compare it to "asshole". I would say _stu guapp' _(in a jocular, totally non-aggressive way) to someone who always wants to have his way. On the other hand saying _nun fa' 'o guapp' cu' mme (_don't behave like a guappo to me) would convey irritation. Today the jocular, even affectionate, use is the norm. I call my little nephew _guappetiello_. The word is central to the song _Guapparia(_you can hear it and read the lyrics here - it might trigger a trip down memory lane ).

It's interesting how many different words English dictionaries have to resort to to translate _guappo _in the etymology of _wop: bold, showy, braggart, blusterer, swaggerer, bully, tough, dude, stud._ The Dict of American Slang adds _used as a greeting by male Neapolitans._

I'm afraid I'll never be more than a _guapp'i carton' (_"a cardboard guappo", a bit like a "paper tiger").


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## cuchuflete

Moodywop said:
			
		

> I suppose that Neapolitan _guappo _must be derived from _guapo _in its "brave" sense. Any idea when the meaning changed? (I don't know if there is a Spanish equivalent of the OED).



Carlo, 
The dictionary of the Real Academia Española is something in the direction of the OED.   My 1732 edition has only positive meanings.  Here is a quick and dirty translation:

Guapo: valerous, resolute, courageous, performing brave and arduous acts....

Guapo: gallant, lucid, giving much attention to decency and adornment of one's person...

Guapo: a ladies' man

The negative meaning must be quite a bit older.


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## moodywop

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Guapo: valerous, resolute, courageous, performing brave and arduous acts....
> 
> Guapo: gallant, lucid, giving much attention to decency and adornment of one's person...
> 
> Guapo: a ladies' man


 
Thanks, Cuchu. Now it all makes sense. These are clearly the meanings of _guapo _which were current when the word entered Neapolitan, during the period of Spanish rule in Naples (1503-1707).

The second meaning you quote also explains why the OED translates _guapo _as _dandy _(in the etymological information on _wop_)


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## mariposita

In old Spanish texts, _guapo _can have a negative connotation. 

According to my Latin etimological dictionary the Italian word _guappo_ comes from the Spanish word _guapo,_ which in turn comes from the Old French word _wape_, which comes from the Latin word _vappa_, which is derived from the Latin word _vapor._


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## cuchuflete

Carlo,
Many of the 1732 RAE entries are in the current publication, totally unchanged!  What has changed are the Latin etymologies.

The current edition gives this:

*guapo**, pa**.*
 (Del lat. _vappa_, vino estropeado, hombre vil, vagabundo).


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## mariposita

The RAE doesn't always show all of the intervening steps between Latin and Spanish. If it did, it might be twice as long, at least, given that so many Spanish words passed through other_ lenguas romances_ or dialects of _Latín vulgar_ before making it to castellano. That's why a Latin dictionary that lists the derivatives of Latin words can come in handy for filling in the blanks.


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## ChiMike

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> Therefore, would you say it's not used because it is obsolete or it is a kind of word that people don't use since it's quite offensive?


 
In American English (and elsewhere too, I believe) there is an IMMENSE vocabulary of these words. They can still be used among friends (particularly male) in a humorous, joking way - which invites the same type of response to the other person's ethnicity. Otherwise, they are always offensive and insulting, as are those who still use them. One caveat: such words referring to black people and to Jews can NEVER be used, even jokingly or humorously in the U.S., without stamping the user as a racist. Enough is enough. 

Some of these ethnic designations have been used in the past, always demeaningly, as adjectives and can be found in some authors of the '20s, '30s and '40s, and in Hollywood "B" films:

They came out with a big jug of Dago red. 

(Cheap red wine - from California or Italy.) These uses are also rude and impolite.

Other such, for Italians: wop (supposedly an immigration abbreviation for: Without papers, written: w/o p, but I have heard other derivations), guinea (upon its creation, the Verrazano bridge in New York, which, viewed from a local level, links an Italian-American neighborhood in Brooklyn with Staten Island, the most Italian-American borough, was known locally as the "Guinea Gangplank" - even more so after the film "Saturday Night Fever"); greasers, greaseballs (also used for Hispanic Americans). 

These words should be avoided by all and sundry, whether native speakers or not, as should words like: "honkie" and "cracker." Almost all of them qualify as "fighting words," i.e., their use is a legal justification for striking the person using them and will excuse, in court, any injury (short of permanent maiming or death) the user may suffer in consequence. The same holds true of vulgarities used to describe homosexuals.


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## Joelline

Dago red! I haven't heard that one used in 20 years or more! How times have changed. My own father was always called "Dago Joe" (to distinguish him from "Indian Joe" with whom he worked. When I was little, I thought "Dago" was his first name! 

But I would second ChiMike's advice to natives and non-natives alike. Don't use any of these terms unless you are absolutely sure there will not be repercussions! (By that, I mean that if you hear an Italian refer to himself as a "Dago," you could ask why he does that, what it means to him, how he'd feel if someone else called him that, etc.) 

Personally, I have wiped almost all such terms from my vocabularly (except those which I share with an old friend or two because the words apply to both of us.).


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## emma42

I have started a new thread in Cultural Discussions about the concept of "Fighting Words" as a legal justification for violence.  Thanks, Mike, for that information - really interesting.


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## foxfirebrand

moodywop said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call _guappo _derogatory or compare it to "asshole". I would say _stu guapp' _(in a jocular, totally non-aggressive way) to someone who always wants to have his way


Well, in the military subculture _asshole_ is a much, much less offensive term than it seems to be in the general pop.

"Don't be an asshole, man-- I saw her first."
"Well you're shit out of luck, then-- I think she _likes_ assholes."

As one who's always had to "go native" in life, and take on the culture of those surrounding me, I would never consider you a second-class wop-- you love the place and its language, which you were denied as a child, and this makes you as real as anyone "born to it."

Now that ChiMike has brought up "Guinea," I'll second his notion that it is a much more unmitigatedly derogatory word.  When I lived in Naples, there were plenty of service personnel who weren't too thrilled with the place, the high crime rate, the overall dangerousness of it-- and they came to dislike the people, sometimes strongly.  When they expressed this dislike, _Guinea_ was the word they always went for.

"Someone who always wants to have his own way"-- in the variant spoken by GIs, and by extension brats, this is exactly what you're giving a friend shit about when you call him "asshole."

My kids call each other that when they're wrangling in a "jocular" manner, and one of them gets the upper hand.  Didn't fall too far from the tree, I guess.
.


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## ChiMike

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Carlo,
> Many of the 1732 RAE entries are in the current publication, totally unchanged! What has changed are the Latin etymologies.
> 
> The current edition gives this:
> 
> *guapo**, pa**.*
> (Del lat. _vappa_, vino estropeado, hombre vil, vagabundo).


 
This word exists in Old French, as "wape" or "guape" or "gape" and the derivation given is the same: _probably_, vapidum from vappa. There is something a bit strange about such a derivation in OF, since initial v- in Latin or Vulgar Latin almost always remains v-, or, in certain rare cases, becomes f- (fois, but then not in Spanish or Italian: veces, vece) or b- (and only thru most unusual circumstances: brébis). This spelling in OF usually indicates a Germanic or Celtic root or the confusion of a Germanic or Celtic root with a Latin root beginning with v-, or a probable prior borrowing of a Germanic root into Latin: vastare, OHG: wuosti, OF guaster, F. gâter (Eng. waste). The problem is that I see no Germanic root, except perhaps the common Teutonic: web (with a diminished b) meaning to move about briskly, giving the English word Weevil, which, however, is already attested in OE as "wifel". There is also the possibility of contamination by OF "gap" (attested repeatedly in Chrétien de Troyes) but this is from Germanic "gabb" with a very hard "b" which gave: gabar (prov.), gaber (F), gabar (Sp.), and the English "gab".

So, there is something strange going on here, but danged if I know what it is!


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## emma42

I don't understand the "Guinea" thing.  Could someone please explain it to a poor limey?


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## Thomas1

ChiMike said:
			
		

> [...]
> These words should be avoided by all and sundry, whether native speakers or not, as should words like: "honkie" and "cracker." Almost all of them qualify as "fighting words," i.e., their use is a legal justification for striking the person using them and will excuse, in court, any injury (short of permanent maiming or death) the user may suffer in consequence. The same holds true of vulgarities used to describe homosexuals.


 
 To me this is really shocking! How come that you can excuse a human who killed someone just for calling them "dago", "honkie", etc? Or is there something I don't know of, please?
I don't try to justificate people who use such words because they are offencing but I don't think it's a good reason for freeing someone from bearing the consequences for killing or maiming the other person either. Are the Americans really that touchy about ethinc slur? And what about the other English-speaking nations, are they the same?
In my opinion the wieght of the two is not the same. How can one consider as equal calling someone a dago and killing someone or even as a more grave crime a gross abuse than killing?


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## emma42

Hi Thomas.  ChiMike actually said that you can injure but you *cannot kill or* *maim.  *Also, if you look at the thread on Fighting Words in the Cultural Forum, you will see that ChiMike was actually wrong about this law (sorry Mike!) and that it doesn't exist.


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## Thomas1

I don't know why but when I read ChiMike's post I could swear I saw "short or permanent maiming or death," , Thanks a lot for pointing that out and for the information you included in your post it clarifies things quite nicely .


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## emma42

Hi Thomas.  Mike said short *of* not "or".   In this context it means, "not including".


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## moodywop

emma42 said:
			
		

> I don't understand the "Guinea" thing. Could someone please explain it to a poor limey?


 
Emma

According to the Cassell Dict of Slang:

*guinea *(from _Guinea Negro) _orig. a Black (18th c). 
[late 19thc] an Italian person, usu. an immigrant to the US
"The original guineas were Black slaves from the Guinea coast of Africa, and the term gradually evolved to mean anybody with a notably dark complexion, although it is rarely if ever used to mean a Black in the 20th c."

Earliest example in the Historical Dict of American Slang:

*1890 *_Harper's Wkly:_ The lower "sporting" element in the poorer quarters of New York call them "Guineas" and "Dagoes"

A variant spelling is "ghinny".


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## emma42

Thank you, Carlo.  I had no idea.


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## moodywop

emma42 said:
			
		

> Thank you, Carlo. I had no idea.


 
Actually another derogatory word for Italians that I only heard for the first time recently is "a Guido/guido", apparently used to refer to guys like the character played by John Travolta in _Saturday Night Fever (_Toni Manero_)._


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## castellano

Once I was told by a well-instructed Englishman that Spaniards were called "_dagos_" in a disparaging way, but I've spoken to other English people about this word and they've no idea about it.
This well-educated Englishman also told me that the French were called _"frogs" _and that the nickname for the Germans was_ "the crowds"._

Regards,
from a Spaniard of Castile.


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## emma42

Hi castellano.  "Dago" used to be a very common insult in BE.  It has gone somewhat out of fashion now, but only in the last 20 or so years.

The insulting word for the Germans is "kraut"!!!!!  There are loads more, as you can imagine,  because of the two world wars.


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## mariposita

Where I grew up in the US, there was an Italian neighborhood that was called, mainly by older people, the _Dago_ _Hill_. I guess this slur got spread fairly far and wide. 

_Kraut_ (from sauerkraut)was used even more in a derogatory fashion for Germans. And another _Scrubby Dutch_, which was probably the mildest, referred to the cleanliness of the German neighborhoods (as if this were somehow a bad thing).


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## foxfirebrand

moodywop said:
			
		

> Actually another derogatory word for Italians that I only heard for the first time recently is "a Guido/guido", apparently used to refer to guys like the character played by John Travolta in _Saturday Night Fever (_Toni Manero_)._


 Mah!  I got called _Guido_ in Naples, and it wasn't a nickname-- isn't it a logical translation for _Bill?_  Short for Guglielmo?
.


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## moodywop

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Mah! I got called _Guido_ in Naples, and it wasn't a nickname-- isn't it a logical translation for _Bill?_ Short for Guglielmo?


 
No, Fox. Guido is a separate name. It's not short for Guglielmo. You bring up an interesting point, though. Most Italian immigrants came from the South, where Guido is not a very common name (unlike, say, Alfonso, Ciro, Pasquale, Vincenzo etc). I wonder whether the name Guido was picked because of a character in a movie/TV comedy etc that fit the stereotype.


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## foxfirebrand

Thanks Carlo-- derivation from _Wido_ would make the name a cognate of the French name _Guy._ 

Tangential but still on-subtopic (maybe)-- even after seeing the Germanic name Wido I felt an even more stubborn sense that the name was connected with William.  Finally I had a brainflash about doing a search in my geneological files, but found that the tie-in was purely coincidental.  I have an ancestor named Wido de St Maur (Seymour)-- and both his father and his son were named William.  

But pedigree and etymology are not the same thing-- and the only other Wido I found was a _Comté_ in Alsace, and the Comte of that dubious place was named _Gui._

As for Italian Guidos, the only one I can come up with, off the top of my head was a damn Fiorentino-- named de Medici.  Also an early composer from that same town, now that I think of it, and a painter or two.

The stereotypic "Guido" is also represented by the more-than-a-little insulting character on SNL from the "still funny" late-70s era-- Guido Sarducci.  His "Italian accent" was so Moustache-Pete I'm surprised they didn't furnish him with an organ grinder and a monkey.
.


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## phistash

I am both Italian and Irish and was reminded many a time in my childhood by my mother to be proud of being an "Irish dago".  But then I grew up in an Irish neighborhood in a large NorthEastern city where "dago", "guinea", and "guido" were commonly used.  I am under thirty, to give everyone some perspective.
I would be interested to know if other Italian Americans referred to themselves with these terms.


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## ChiMike

moodywop said:
			
		

> Emma
> 
> According to the Cassell Dict of Slang:
> 
> *guinea *(from _Guinea Negro) _orig. a Black (18th c).
> [late 19thc] an Italian person, usu. an immigrant to the US
> "The original guineas were Black slaves from the Guinea coast of Africa, and the term gradually evolved to mean anybody with a notably dark complexion, although it is rarely if ever used to mean a Black in the 20th c."
> 
> Earliest example in the Historical Dict of American Slang:
> 
> *1890 *_Harper's Wkly:_ The lower "sporting" element in the poorer quarters of New York call them "Guineas" and "Dagoes"
> 
> A variant spelling is "ghinny".


 
Indeed, U.S. racists (although they were (and are) certainly not alone) have (had) a habit of finding skin tone other than "peaches and cream" not white. For southern Europeans, Latinos, Africans (or persons of some African ancestry - including African-Americans, whose history in the U.S. is longer in most cases than that of well over half of the "white" population), Arabs, and Asians, these terms are most frequently not merely "ethnic" terms (equivalent to "Mick" or "Paddy" (for Irish), "Kraut" (for German), Frog (for French)), but mark (-ed, we wish) a distinct racist color line. 

For the African-American population of the United States, words were developed (particularly in the South) to indicate the amount of "colored" blood: quadroon (one black grand-parent - 1/4), octaroon (one black great-grandparent -1/8), and even sestaroon (one black great-great grandparent 1/16). The ending is from "maroon" (Fr. maron: chestnut colored). Please note that, on this score, American racists went much further than Hitler, to give you some idea of the iniquity and perversity of the matter. 

These distinctions were legally important. It was not until 1967 (that is correct, only forty years ago) that the Supreme Court of the United States, in the aptly named case: *Loving* v. *The Commonwealth of Virginia*, held the remaining state laws (all Southern), both criminal (yes, criminal, you could be sent to jail for this offense) and civil against "miscegenation" (intermarriage between persons of different "races") to violate the 14th Amendment to the Federal Constitution, added after the Civil War to guarantee equality to all citizens, including freed slaves. 

For tones which could be heard at the time from many quarters, please refer to the decision, which quotes the judge of the Virginia court, which exiled Loving and his wife from the Commonwealth for 25 years.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html

The Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court who concurred unanimously in the Loving decision, by the way, are the "activist" judges now so heartily condemned by the elite of the Republican party, for those who are too young to remember what these charlatans, surrounded by criminals (actually convicted and often pardoned from every Republican administration since Nixon), are really talking about or the "golden age" before such "judicial activism" which they would like to bring back. 

For those who are unaware of the fact, both the keeping of slaves and the depth of this racism were justified from the Bible by their Protestant partisans (and by some Catholic ones as well), including, of course, the Southern Baptist Convention, now the largest organized Protestant body calling itself Christian in the United States. They have now chosen another group as the objects of their infamous machinations which use Torah as a smorgasbord, although, of course, for many years, they encouraged anti-semitism. Holy Writ, you understand, is "inerrant" in their hands.

I have added the above for those who do not understand why, at least in the United States, the use of many of these terms is DEADLY serious.


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## ChiMike

castellano said:
			
		

> Once I was told by a well-instructed Englishman that Spaniards were called "_dagos_" in a disparaging way, but I've spoken to other English people about this word and they've no idea about it.
> This well-educated Englishman also told me that the French were called _"frogs" _and that the nickname for the Germans was_ "the crowds"._
> 
> Regards,
> from a Spaniard of Castile.


 
That's "the Krauts" LOL. The word means plant in German ("Unkraut" means "weed") and refers to a favorite food: Sauerkraut (choucroute in French; simply used "as is" in English since the German pronunciation of "sauer" is very similar to the English word of the same meaning: sour). 

French is also referred to as "frog-talk" (refers to the nasalization as well as the intonation, no doubt - with a small literary aside to a play by Aristophanes - which contains a croaking chorus). This, of course, only continues a tradition dating back hundreds of years, whereby: "to take French leave" (be absent from one's assigned duty without permission) is referred to in French as taking English leave (filer à l'anglaise) and syphilis was referred to as "the French disease" (but in France: the English disease (le mal anglais). 

What can one expect when the English sovereign only took: "King of France" out of his style in 1801, when the Corsican upstart usurper was planning on invading?


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## emma42

Thanks, ChiMike for that extremely telling court decision link.


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