# Punjabi: Shaman Paiyyan



## Illuminatus

Hi

There is this song by Nusrat FAK, which starts with _Shamaan Paiyyan tere bina, tu ghar aa dholna.

_Shamaa.n normally means lamp/flame, I think. What does _paiyya.n_ mean?

I guess the overall meaning is "sab kuchh soona soona hai tumhare bina".


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Don't know that 'song' (qawwaalii ?); I guess *paiyya.n* is Punjabi, translating in Urdu / Hindi to _*paRii hai.n*_; so your overall translation totally makes sense


----------



## panjabigator

This looks like Punjabi too me.  Maybe something like "night has descended w/o you, come home, beloved."

I agree w/ Cilqui's translation.  I've also changed the thread to say "Punjabi" in lieu of Urdu.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

The meaning is that the candles are not used (left unused = paRii hai.n), it means there is no mehfil, social gathering, no celebration no joy.... in the absence of the beloved and it can also be assumed that the person is so sad that he doesn't even feel like lighting his house at night and remains in the dark... Which is anyway the condition of his heart (darkness) without the Dholna (beloved)..

I won't even dare suggesting a translation....


----------



## BP.

This is a Punjabi _bandish _often sung before the _alaap _of other longer chants.

Cilqui, I see no mention of candles in the quoted verse. The meaning is as gator translated.


----------



## Illuminatus

What is the exact meaning of shamaa?


----------



## BP.

I think _shaamaa.n_ is the plural of _shaam_-evening, and would be written like this: شاماں.


----------



## panjabigator

Hmmmm.  BP,  Cilqui's does make sense to me too.  Could the two interpretations be plausible readings?

"Shaman" could be 'flame' here and <paiyā.n> does suggest that they are unused.  کیا رای ھے آپ کی؟


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

According to Illu's first post I assume shamaan was transliterating:


*شمع*

The plural of which would be :

*شمعاں*

Panjabigator, it has to be one of the two translations, it can't be both...

Let's await more knowledgeable people to settle it for good.


----------



## BP.

The word didn't sound like شمعاں, but we could put it down to accent and Cilqui could be right.

Strangely, google doesn't seem to offer any results for the line.


----------



## panjabigator

I'll try and find this particular _qawwali_ and give it a listen.


----------



## Faylasoof

As somebody with limited knowledge of Punjabi - and this is Punjabi, no doubt - I have a question or two about this.

1) In Punjabi, is the pluralisation of <_sham3_> (usually pronounced as _sha*mm*a_) in the nominative case <_sham3aa.n_ >? 

I have only Urdu to go on, where the nominative plural of <_sham3_ شمع> is < _sham3e.n_ شمعیں> . 


2) Does Punjabi pluralise <_shaam_ = evening> to <_shaamaa.n_>. _This to me looks like a Persian technique but could be bona fide Punjabi pluralisation too. _I just don’t know.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof said:


> As somebody with limited knowledge of Punjabi - and this is Punjabi, no doubt - I have a question or two about this.
> 
> 1) In Punjabi, is the pluralisation of <_sham3_> (usually pronounced as _sha*mm*a_) in the nominative case <_sham3aa.n_ >?
> 
> I have only Urdu to go on, where the nominative plural of <_sham3_ شمع> is < _sham3e.n_ شمعیں> .
> 
> 
> 2) Does Punjabi pluralise <_shaam_ = evening> to <_shaamaa.n_>. _This to me looks like a Persian technique but could be bona fide Punjabi pluralisation too. _I just don’t know.


 
The Punjabi plural corresponding to the Urdu feminine plural -* e.n* is actually *- a.n*, which is actually also used as a masculine plural, so the answer to both your questions is YES.


----------



## Faylasoof

Thanks Cilqui!


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Welcome Faylas. By the way, there is no such thing as the oblique plural in Punjabi so the *-aa.n* ending is never changed to *- o.n* as in Urdu / Hindi....

Now to settle this matter for good. I have asked around me about this bandish and I have also checked in my Punjabi-Urdu dictionary.

It is not *shamaa.n*, but *shaamaa.n.*
And yes, it is technically the plural of shaam, evening, however it doesn't really convey a plural meaning. It simply means : evening time : maghrib kaa waqt.


----------



## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Welcome Faylas. By the way, there is no such thing as the oblique plural in Punjabi so the *-aa.n* ending is never changed to *- o.n* as in Urdu / Hindi....


There is an oblique feminine plural in Punjabi, but it's the same as the nominative plural, i.e., no change.  The masculine, however, does change.


----------



## BP.

Makes you think of Bhopali doesn't it!


----------



## Koozagar

and shaamaa.n pay jaana ( coming of night) while waiting for someone is a common poetic expression.


----------



## bakshink

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I think _shaamaa.n_ is the plural of _shaam_-evening, and would be written like this: شاماں.



Yes it is correct shaamaa.n as used here means "evenings". Though grammatically it may not be correct because when talking of an evening one should say "shaam paee" but sometime in Punjabi it is said so an accepted. 
"shaamii.n aunaa/aanaa" - come in the evening.

Illuminatus has assumed that "shamaa.n" refers to "shamaa" Urdu word for a candle.


----------



## Rüyas

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Welcome Faylas. By the way, there is no such thing as the oblique plural in Punjabi so the *-aa.n* ending is never changed to *- o.n* as in Urdu / Hindi....
> 
> Now to settle this matter for good. I have asked around me about this bandish and I have also checked in my Punjabi-Urdu dictionary.
> 
> It is not *shamaa.n*, but *shaamaa.n.*
> And yes, it is technically the plural of shaam, evening, however it doesn't really convey a plural meaning. It simply means : evening time : maghrib kaa waqt.


 

Yes you're right, this line of the qawwali simply means It's the evening time, o beloved come back home.


----------



## panjabigator

Can we consider this "aan" ending a locative in Punjabi, i.e., <shaamī>, <rātī>?

Oops, just read Bakshink's post: it appears that is!

Also: Rüyas, welcome to the forum!


----------



## Qureshpor

Just to add a little to what other friends have said.

shaamaaN paiyaaN tere binaa, tuu ghar aa DholaNRaa
ro ro ke maiN devaaN sadaa, tuu ghar aa  DholaNRaa

shaameN paRiiN tere binaa, tuu ghar aa mere maHbuub
 ro ro ke maiN duuN sadaa, tuu ghar aa mere maHbuub

Evenings fall and you are not with me, come home my darling
With tears of anguish I am calling out, come home my darling

Why evenings?

Well  the scenario is that the lover has gone away; the beloved is eagerly  waiting for his return. Day goes by, evening comes, he does n't come!  Another day passes, it is evening time but he is not there. Days of  course are bearable but, when "shaam hu'ii un kaa xayaal aa gayaa"! So,  we are talking not about one evening but evening after evening! Why the  past tense? What did Gabbar Singh say... "jo Dar gayaa vuh mar gayaa!"  The past makes it more emphatic


----------

