# Κι αν . . . κι αν



## halcyon2

The following comes from a version of the Greek New Testament:
_
Κι αν στη δεύτερη κι αν στην τρίτη φρουρά_ της νύχτας έρθει . . . .


Does the construction _κι αν . . . κι αν_ mean _whether . . . or_?

Thanks for any help.  I couldn't find this construction in any Greek dictionary.  Is it used very often in Modern Greek?


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## Plus7

No, it is not used often. I don't remember seeing it written like that before in Modern Greek. Seems more like a poetic way to write it. But I agree with you that it probably means "or".


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## shawnee

I read it more like "if on/by the first, if on/by the second watch..." Are we talking Hamlet here?


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## uress

No Hamlet, its the New Testament. N it means something like "if ... (wether) even at (hour) or even at (hour)". The time was measured by the guard watches. If I remember well, it means 12midnight and 3am in this case.

Ok, I looked it up for you:
It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak.


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## sotos

halcyon2 said:


> The following comes from a version of the Greek New Testament:


Which version?


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## Perseas

shawnee said:


> I read it more like "if on/by the first, if on/by the second watch..."





sotos said:


> Which version?


I found it here:
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΙΟ- ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟ 12


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## halcyon2

Thanks, everyone, for all the replies.  So it seems like there's no actual consensus on exactly how to translate the phrase.    I guess the translator was trying to be a bit too poetic for his own good.  Yes, that's the right version of the NT that Perseas posted—not sure what the actual name of the version is, though.


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## Perseas

halcyon2 said:


> Does the construction _κι αν . . . κι αν_ mean _whether . . . or_?


_είτε ... είτε   _translates_ whether . . . or_, as I believe_.
αν _means_ if._


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## halcyon2

Perseas said:


> _είτε ... είτε   _translates_ whether . . . or_, as I believe_.
> αν _means_ if._



Thanks.  Yes, I did realize that, but I was just trying to interpret the general sense rather than the literal meaning of the phrase.   Anyway, it seems that the translator was a bit unorthodox in his rendition of this phrase.


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## shawnee

I don't see why, "whether by the first or by the second ...." should be discounted as an appropriate interpretation.


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## halcyon2

shawnee said:


> I don't see why, "whether by the first or by the second ...." should be discounted as an appropriate interpretation.



Thanks, shawnee.  Yes, I think that basically conveys the overall sense of the verse.  And after digging a little further, I discovered that 3 official translations of this verse also use the "whether . . . or" construction, as can be seen here:

Luke 12:38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak.

Also, I was wrong about the translation in the title of this thread being "unorthodox."  In fact, these are the Young's Literal Version and Berean Literal Bible translations, respectively, for this same verse:

_And if he may come in the second watch, and in the third watch he may come, and may find it so, happy are those servants.

And if he comes in the second, and if in the third watch, and finds them thus, blessed are those!
_
So, this translator was basically just sticking to a literal translation, and while that may sound a bit clunky to our modern ears, there is a valid reason behind it.


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## sotos

halcyon2 said:


> Does the construction _κι αν . . . κι αν_ mean _whether . . . or_?



Having red the greek text, and having been in the army, I think it doesn't mean "wheter ... or" but "the second AND the third". The point is, if you want to catch the sleepy guard, you do the routine  check and then you check him again. This double check is rather unexpectable, since the officers are more sleepy than the guards.


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## halcyon2

sotos said:


> Having read the greek text, and having been in the army, I think it doesn't mean "whether ... or" but "the second AND the third". The point is, if you want to catch the sleepy guard, you do the routine  check and then you check him again.



Thanks for the helpful info, sotos.  In this verse, though, I'm not sure the intent is to purposely catch those who are not being watchful, but more to warn the servants to be alert at all times.  Anyway, I do get what you're saying.



> This double check is rather unexpected, since the officers are more sleepy than the guards.



I guess the guards in your army had it made then.


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## yaryalitsa

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ ΕΥΑΓΓΕΛΙΟ- ΚΕΦΑΛΑΙΟ 12
I went to the original of the text and to number (37)

*37 Μακάριοι οι δούλοι εκείνοι, τους οποίους, όταν έρθει ο κύριος, θα τους βρει να αγρυπνούν. Αλήθεια σας λέω ότι θα περιζωστεί την ποδιά του και θα τους καθίσει στο τραπέζι και, αφού έρθει κοντά τους, θα τους διακονήσει. *

*38 Κι αν στη δεύτερη κι αν στην τρίτη φρουρά της νύχτας έρθει και τους βρει έτσι, εκείνοι είναι μακάριοι.

Rough translation of (37)*:
"Blessed be they who Christ finds sleepless (awake).  Truly he will surround them with _'his garment'_ and will sit them down at the table, and when they feel safe with his presence, he will serve them.

*Rough translation of (38): (Keeping in mind what has been said/written in (37):*
"And even if he comes and finds them in the same manner, on the second or third watch of the night, they will be the blessed ones."


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