# FR: Nous le lui avons annoncé - accord du participe passé



## dontcallmeshirley

The following is from an online resource. I'm confused by exactly what they mean by "representing a phrase or "having an answer to the question what". In both examples given it appears to me the "en" of the first and "le" of the second aren't different from direct object pronouns referring to "des fraises" and "les manifestations", respectively. I thought that when direct object pronouns are placed before the past particple they need to be in agreement with each other?

3.8 *Le participe passé précédé de en, le, l’…*

Le participe passé précédé de _en_, _le, l’ _représentant une phrase_ ou ayant comme réponse à la question quoi? de cela, _reste toujours invariable.

_J’ai cueilli des fraises et je lui en *ai donné*.

Je lui ai donné quoi ? De cela, de ces fraises, donc *donné* reste invariable.

Les manifestants sont arrivés : nous le lui *avons annoncé*.

Nous lui avons annoncé quoi ?_


----------



## Yendred

" _en, le, l'_ " peuvent être des pronoms qui représentent (remplacent) une phrase :
_J’ai cueilli des fraises et je lui *en* ai donné.
(*en* = "des fraises que j'ai cueillies")
Les_ _manifestants sont arrivés_ : _nous *le* lui avons annoncé_
(*le*_ = "que les manifestants sont arrivés"_)

Ces pronoms peuvent aussi remplacer la réponse "_de cela_" à la question "_quoi ?_" :
_Je lui *en* ai donné._
(_Je lui ai donné *quoi* ? _Réponse : _Je lui ai donné *de cela*_)

Dans tous ces cas, le participe passé reste invariable.


----------



## jekoh

"le" is indeed the direct object but it is singular and therefore can not refer to "les manifestants" (plural). The past participle does agree with the direct object.


----------



## Maître Capello

dontcallmeshirley said:


> I thought that when direct object pronouns are placed before the past particple they need to be in agreement with each other?


The pronoun _en_ is an exception to this rule because it is usually considered neuter even though it may refer to a feminine and/or plural noun. For more details, see the following thread:

FR: accord du participe passé avec "en" / past participle agreement with "en"


----------



## dontcallmeshirley

Yendred said:


> Ces pronoms peuvent aussi remplacer la réponse "_de cela_" à la question "_quoi ?_" :
> _Je lui *en* ai donné._
> (_Je lui ai donné *quoi* ? _Réponse : _Je lui ai donné *de cela*_)



De cela = "of that"?

"I gave him of that" - this doesn't make sense to me.  Can someone explain what the nuance is between answering with "quoi" vs "de cela"?



jekoh said:


> "le" is indeed the direct object but it is singular and therefore can not refer to "les manifestants" (plural). The past participle does agree with the direct object.


It says it doesn't agree though, because it remains invariable.  I guess when these pronouns replace phrases rather than nouns, they don't require the agreement.  I honestly find Russian grammar easier than French.


----------



## Yendred

dontcallmeshirley said:


> De cela = "of that"?
> 
> "I gave him of that"


_I gave him *some* of that_


----------



## jekoh

We're saying the same thing differently : there is no difference between "not requiring agreement" and "requiring agreement in the masculine singular".

Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.

_Nous *le* lui avons annonc*é*.
Nous *la* lui avons annonc*ée*.
Nous *les *lui avons annonc*és*. _(masc plural)
_Nous *les* lui avons annonc*ées*._ (fem plural)

Clearly it does agree, regardless of whether the direct object pronoun stands for a noun or a phrase.


----------



## Maître Capello

jekoh said:


> Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.


There is indeed no exception for pronoun _le_, regardless of what _le_ stands for, but there is one for pronoun _en_.


----------



## dontcallmeshirley

jekoh said:


> We're saying the same thing differently : there is no difference between "not requiring agreement" and "requiring agreement in the masculine singular".
> 
> Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.
> 
> _Nous *le* lui avons annonc*é*.
> Nous *la* lui avons annonc*ée*.
> Nous *les *lui avons annonc*és*. _(masc plural)
> _Nous *les* lui avons annonc*ées*._ (fem plural)
> 
> Clearly it does agree, regardless of whether the direct object pronoun stands for a noun or a phrase.



Hmm, but the source goes on to say: _Le, mis pour la phrase « que les manifestants étaient arrivés », donc *annoncé* reste invariable._

I think I'm confused by which direct object pronouns can replace a phrase rather than a noun. Is it correct to say only « le, l' and en » can replace a phrase - i.e a feminine article cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine? Thank you in advance.


----------



## Yendred

dontcallmeshirley said:


> Is it correct to say only « le, l' and en » can replace a phrase - i.e a feminine article cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine?


Exactly   For instance:

Phrase with a singular feminine noun:
_Sa mère est arrivée : nous *le* lui avons annoncé._
(= _nous lui avons annoncé que sa mère est arrivée_)

Phrase with a plural feminine noun:
_Ses soeurs sont arrivées : nous *le* lui avons annoncé._
(= _nous lui avons annoncé que ses soeurs sont arrivées_)


----------



## Maître Capello

_L'_ is just the elided version of _le_ (or _la_*) before a vowel or a mute _h_. Here is an example:

_Sa mère est arrivée ; nous *l'*avons annoncé à Marc._​_Nous avons annoncé à Marc que sa mère était arrivée_.​
As to _en_, here is an example where it replaces a phrase:

_Sa mère est arrivée à deux heures ; je m'*en* souviens très bien._​_Je me souviens très bien que sa mère est arrivée à deux heures._​
You may think of it as: _Je me souviens très bien *du fait* que sa mère est arrivée à deux heures._

* Note: _L'_ can be the elided version of _la_ only if it refers to a noun, never to a phrase. When it replaces a phrase, it is necessarily pronoun _le_. The past participle agreement is therefore always in the masculine singular in that case.


----------



## jekoh

dontcallmeshirley said:


> a feminine article pronoun cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine?


Exactly like in English :
Their sister arrived, we told *it* to them. (not _we told *her* to them_).


----------



## Maître Capello

Yes, except in English it is usually more idiomatic not to include a pronoun: _Their sister had arrived, we told them_.


----------



## jekoh

Well, in French it is also idiomatic to include just one pronoun : _nous lui avons annoncé_. It must have been years since I heard anyone say "le lui".


----------

