# far pesare



## Noa's Hark

I am trying to make sense of the word _"pesare"_ in this context, any suggestions?

_"Secondo me per farle pesare il fatto che non c'e' stata."_
_In my opinion, to make him tired was not possible._

In fact, I'm trying to make sense of the entire sentence, the words on their own make sense but not really in conjunction with one another.

Thanks
N


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## claudine2006

In my opinion, to make her feel guilty for not being here.
(Sorry, I'm not sure the second part is good English).


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## ElaineG

Do you have the sentence before and after? It's something like, "According to me, to impress her with the fact that she/it wasn't here." But there are a lot of possibilities for "non c'`e stata" depending on the context.


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## Noa's Hark

Thanks Elaine and Claudine,
I did not realise that _pesare_ had such varied meanings.. The sentence before refers to my friend looking after a toddler who's mother is working, the toddler becomes capricious when mother returns. So perhaps my friend is not wanting the mother to feel guilty about her absences and her toddler's tantrums... Would that be right?


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## ElaineG

Noa's Hark said:


> Thanks Elaine and Claudine,
> I did not realise that _pesare_ had such varied meanings.. The sentence before refers to my friend looking after a toddler who's mother is working, the toddler becomes capricious when mother returns. So perhaps my friend is not wanting the mother to feel guilty about her absences and her toddler's tantrums... Would that be right?


 
I'm guessing it's like this:

According to me, [the toddler has tantrums] to make her [the mother] feel guilty [farle pesare il fatto=literally, to make the fact weigh upon her] that she wasn't here.

Normal toddler behavior .


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## Noa's Hark

Ok, that makes complete sense. Mystery solved.

Thanks
N


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## Amadea

'Se non me lo fai pesare' 
Is the proper translation: 'If you don't make it difficult for me'? Or ' If you don't make me pay for it'? Either way the person does not seem to be thrilled about what he or she has to do or accept. Correct?
Grazie tanto


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## joe86

Hi folks,

I understand you can translate _*fare pesare qualcosa (a qualcuno)*_ into _*to make somebody feel guilty about something*_ or _*to make something weigh upon somebody*_...but isn't there an easier way to say that? Perhaps an idiom?

Anybody has any ideas?

Cheers

_Joe_


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## Alxmrphi

*Put them on a guilt trip *

Quite colloquial.


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## joe86

That's a good one Alex! Is it like ours _mettere alla gogna_?


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## Lorena1970

Hi all,

Alex suggested "Put them on a guilt trip" for "fare pesare" referred to that context. But I am not so sure it fits in my context...

I need to translate "*far pesare"* in a diffrent context. It's about advices given by a professor to his most talented student, who also is a quite impatient and irritable person, due to being quite a genius.

_"Ricorda di essere sempre umile, e reagisci con umiltà soprattutto di fronte all'arroganza altrui, che spesso deriva dall'ignoranza e non necessariamente dalla cattiveria. *Non far mai pesare *le tue doti e il tuo talento, ma piuttosto poniti sempre un gradino più in basso anche se sai di essere migliore di altri. Non è facile, ma è l'unico atteggiamento che può mitigare i problemi che una presona così dotata quale tu sei può incontrare nel lavoro e nella vita"_

I really can't figure out how to translate "*Non far (mai) pesare*" with this meaning both here and more in general like for instance :  when referred to talent, or to a lot of job properly done, or  being somewhat better than someone else et al...(if it does exist something similar in English???)

Thank you


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## giovannino

Hi Lorena, I thought of "don't show off your..." or "don't be ostentatious about your..." or "don't try to impress others with your..." but the Italian expression is milder. I've often heard wear your learning lightly which is quite similar to the Italian phrase but only a native speaker can tell us if it will fit in your context. Maybe "when it comes to your natural skills and talent make sure you wear them lightly"?


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## Lorena1970

giovannino said:


> Hi Lorena, I thought of "don't show off your..." or "don't be ostentatious about your..." or "don't try to impress others with your..." but the Italian expression is milder. I've often heard wear your learning lightly which is quite similar to the Italian phrase but only a native speaker can tell us if it will fit in your context. Maybe "when it comes to your natural skills and talent *make sure you wear them lightly*"? I like this!



Grazie mille...non ne uscivo proprio...!
So it seems true that a proper corrispondent in English doesn't exist...?

Now I am also thinking of apologies, like for instance "Scusa, non era mia intenzione *far pesare* la qualità del mio lavoro/le mie capacità/il mio impegno (etc.)" = "Sorry I didn't mean to wear my job heavily"....?


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## theartichoke

Hi everyone,

Yet another context and another meaning for "far pesare" that I'd like to check on before I assume (based on the context) that I'm right. Here we have a teacher, who has tutored a young boy for more than two years, deciding that his work is done:
_
Il maestro Remigio lavorò a Villa Raimondi per oltre due anni e nel giugno del 1889, quando annunciò alla signora Ernesta che considerava esaurito il suo compito, si sorprese a pensare che avrebbe potuto far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno. Se solo avesse voluto sarebbe potuto restare ancora a Valloria, adducendo come scusa nuove materia, oppure la necessità di un ripasso.....  Ma rimosse subito quel pensiero: in tanti anni di insegnamento si era considerato una persona onesta e tale voleva restare.
_
Going purely by the context, I've translated the "far pesare" part as  "....when he informed Signora Ernesta that he considered his work to be completed, he surprised himself by thinking that he could have drawn it out much further." I'm not sure if this is missing something, though: would "far pesare" here mean something to do more specifically with money? "He could have milked the job for far more profit?" or something like that? The teacher in question, we learned earlier, is getting room and board and "uno stipendio esagerato" for his work.


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## ohbice

More time also means more money. But I think the original text is not explicit, and your traslation is fine.


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## King Crimson

I agree with ohbice, the reason could either be more profit, as you suggested, or just extending his stay because he liked that job, or both things. Unless you have more information I think it's difficult to say for sure what the real motive of Remigio is. Certainly, the "stipendio esagerato" would make me think of profit first, if I had to guess.


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## theartichoke

Okay, thanks. I guess I was having doubts because I wondered whether "far pesare" had definite connotations of exploitation here: i.e., he could have made his work "weigh more heavily," so to speak, on his employer's purse, by stretching it out unnecessarily. But as ohbice points out, time is money, and if it's not explicit in the original, I can leave it as implied in the translation.


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## King Crimson

I was thinking that in this context "far pesare" is not exactly the same, but very similar to "emphasize" or "stress", so a loose translation could be "...he could have emphasized more strongly his commitment / dedication".


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## theartichoke

King Crimson said:


> I was thinking that in this context "far pesare" is not exactly the same, but very similar to "emphasize" or "stress", so a loose translation could be "...he could have emphasized more strongly his commitment / dedication".



Hmmm. This would depend on whether "impegno" here means "dedication" or whether it means "task," correct? Does "far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno" make any kind of sense if we take "impegno" as "task"? Otherwise, I suppose it could be "he surprised himself by thinking that he could have made more of his commitment to the job," seeing that "to make more of" sort of combines the idea of "to emphasize" with a hint of "to use to one's advantage."


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## King Crimson

theartichoke said:


> Hmmm. This would depend on whether "impegno" here means "dedication" or whether it means "task," correct? Does "far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno" make any kind of sense if we take "impegno" as "task"? Otherwise, I suppose it could be "he surprised himself by thinking that he could have made more of his commitment to the job," seeing that "to make more of" sort of combines the idea of "to emphasize" with a hint of "to use to one's advantage."



You're right, it can be read either way, but in light of what comes at the end of that passage (_in tanti anni di insegnamento si era considerato una persona onesta e tale voleva restare_) I'd be inclined to think that Remigio considered his "impegno" as a teacher more as a mission than as an occupation (so much for my previous comment on the "stipendio" in #16). Assuming all of the above is true I think your proposed translation ("could have made more of his commitment to the job") fits the bill, as it captures the two aspects that, as you mention, can be seen as implied in this context by "far pesare".


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## theartichoke

King Crimson said:


> You're right, it can be read either way, but in light of what comes at the end of that passage (_in tanti anni di insegnamento si era considerato una persona onesta e tale voleva restare_) I'd be inclined to think that Remigio considered his "impegno" as a teacher more as a mission than as an occupation (so much for my previous comment on the "stipendio" in #16).



Funny, because I considered that last line about him wanting to remain _una persona onesta_ as implying that Remigio was pretty keen on that _stipendio, _but virtuously refused to entertain his (surprisingly uncharacteristic) thoughts of drawing his employment out further because he would feel guilty about earning money dishonestly, if he were to keep on teaching a kid whom he knows he's already brought up to standard. I'm starting to think the original is genuinely ambiguous, and since _il maestro_ rides off on a mule a few lines later, presumably never to return to the story, it probably doesn't matter _all _that much exactly what's going through his head.


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## symposium

Oh, Artichoke, that of a translator seems to be such a hapless job! And this novel you're translating is riddled with so many tricky passages, the meaning of which is hard to tell for native speakers, too. The language is plain, the words used are simple and ordinary, but what sense they want to convey exactly is doubious... Like this last one: Remigio might have stressed/emphasized more his dedication. He might have stayed longer with the excuse of his pupil needing more lessons. But I think that logically one thing excludes the other: either you think your employer is wronging you by sending you away because you're so dedicated, or that she shouldn't send you away because your pupil's lessons are not over yet... Everybody please forgive this long post!


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## King Crimson

theartichoke said:


> I'm starting to think the original is genuinely ambiguous



Quite so, and I'm wondering whether this ambiguity was sought by the author or it was an unintended effect...


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## OleMorris

In my opinion, 'far pesare' here is just a very elegant way to say that he could have asked for more money (by adding other subjects or simply keeping on teaching the same subjects but after having gained much experience, perhaps also considering that the family may be in less favourable economic conditions now), but I agree that it isn't common usage at all. I don't think the author meant to be ambiguous, it's just quite old-fashioned literary Italian.


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## theartichoke

OleMorris said:


> I don't think the author meant to be ambiguous, it's just quite old-fashioned literary Italian.



That's encouraging, actually. Since it's set in the 1880s, I've been channeling my inner 19th century English novelist whenever I'm in doubt as to the tone of a passage. This seems to be case where the _idea_ of the original line is relatively clear--the teacher didn't _have _to admit that he'd completed his task (of tutoring a boy to the level of his _licenza elementare_) and could have kept his rather cushy job going for at least another few months, but he was an honest man and so he told his employer the truth, and left. Trying to go for a close, near-literal translation of _far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno_, however, is probably not a great idea. After all this discussion, I think might end up back with my original, rather loose translation of "he could have drawn it out much further."


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## ohbice

Son anch'io d'accordo sul fatto che qui ci si distanzia un tantino dall'uso moderno di "far pesare" (nel senso di enfatizzare). Piuttosto si tratta di *far valere *le proprie ragioni, *far valere *le proprie capacità di insegnante, *fare leva *sulla necessità che l'istruzione del ragazzo sia completata, e che lui è la perssona più adatta per svolgere quel compito. 
Non sono invece d'accordo sul *more money*, non c'è scritto da nessuna parte. Per questo ritengo che a traduzione proposta da theartichoke sia ok.


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## King Crimson

ohbice said:


> Non sono invece d'accordo sul *more money*, non c'è scritto da nessuna parte. Per questo ritengo che a traduzione proposta da theartichoke sia ok.



In realtà c'è scritto, non in quel passaggio, ma in precedenza, come ha spiegato art nel post 14:



theartichoke said:


> The teacher in question, we learned earlier, is getting room and board and "uno stipendio esagerato" for his work.



E infatti è questo elemento che ha causato i dubbi e le discussioni sulle reali motivazioni di Remigio. Comunque la traduzione scelta da art conserva l'ambiguità (o il "non detto") dell'originale e quindi è probabilmente la scelta migliore.


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## OleMorris

@ohbice : I agree that the sentence in itself may be ambiguous, but in this particular case I think it's evident that the author refers to an *economic* burden. As I said, it's a refined, literary way to say it, but I doubt there is more to it.


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## LookAtMe

theartichoke said:


> si sorprese a pensare che avrebbe potuto far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno.


I'm slightly going off topic here.

I've noticed you've translated:
"._..*si sorprese a pensare* che avrebbe potuto far pesare maggiormente il suo impegno_."
as
"_...*he surprised himself* by thinking that he could have drawn it out much further"._

I think that the Italian verb "si sorprese" has an aura of an involuntary action whereas the English "he surprised himself" somehow feels a voluntary one.
Perhaps if I were you I'd've avoided the literal translation and said "_*...he found himself thinking..."*_



theartichoke said:


> I'm not sure if this is missing something, though: would "far pesare" here mean something to do more specifically with money? "He could have milked the job for far more profit?" or something like that?


Nah, that's missing nothing, theartichoke!
Unless he has fallen in love with Signora Ernesta and wants to stay around her, if Maestro Remigio considers his work to be completed then his only motive for wanting to stay on has to be the free accommodation and that fat salary. If not that, what else?


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## theartichoke

LookAtMe said:


> I think that the Italian verb "si sorprese" has an aura of an involuntary action whereas the English "he surprised himself" somehow feels a voluntary one.
> Perhaps if I were you I'd've avoided the literal translation and said "_*...he found himself thinking..."*_



Actually, in English there's nothing voluntary about "he surprised himself by thinking.....".  It means exactly the same thing as "he was surprised to find himself thinking....," which means that he found himself thinking something that was not what he was accustomed to thinking: in this case, that he'd kind of like to mislead his employer into employing him longer than strictly necessary. Leaving out the "si sorpresa" in the translation removes the stress that this was an uncharacteristic thought for him.


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## MoltoMahler

theartichoke said:


> Actually, in English there's nothing voluntary about "he surprised himself by thinking.....".  It means exactly the same thing as "he was surprised to find himself thinking....," which means that he found himself thinking something that was not what he was accustomed to thinking: in this case, that he'd kind of like to mislead his employer into employing him longer than strictly necessary. Leaving out the "si sorpresa" in the translation removes the stress that this was an uncharacteristic thought for him.



Like LookAtMe, I think, too, that the actual meaning of "si sorprese a pensare" is much closer to "he found himself thinking", or better, "he caught himself thinking" than "he surprised himself by thinking". The verb "sorprendere" can mean different things and I think that what's intended here is pretty much the same as Treccani shows in 1.b.


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## theartichoke

MoltoMahler said:


> Like LookAtMe, I think, too, that the actual meaning of "si sorprese a pensare" is much closer to "he found himself thinking", or better, "he caught himself thinking" than "he surprised himself by thinking". The verb "sorprendere" can mean different things and I think that what's intended here is pretty much the same as Treccani shows in 1.b.



That's interesting: I didn't know that "sorprendersi" could work that way (and it didn't come across in post 29's comment about voluntary vs. involuntary actions). Given that what he's thinking is indeed an uncharacteristic thought, "he surprised himself by thinking" seemed to make sense. But if native ears think it's too strong for the original, I'm happy to go with "he caught himself thinking," which is really only a shade different.


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## MoltoMahler

If I had to say "he surprised himself by thinking" in Italian, I'd probably go with something like "si sorprese *di* ritovarsi a pensare", where the main difference lies in the use of the preposition "di" instead of "a". In fact, if once again you look carefully (Treccani), you'll notice that in 1.a and 1.b the verb "sorprendere" is often followed by the preposition "a" and a verb in infinitive form, while in 2 (a,b) this never happens.


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## LookAtMe

MoltoMahler said:


> Like LookAtMe, I think, too, that the actual meaning of "si sorprese a pensare" is much closer to "he found himself thinking", or better, "he caught himself thinking"


I'd do away with "catch/caught" as well as this verb also implies a voluntary action, doesn'it?

...Earlier today I found a 500 Euro note in the street (I wasn't expecting that)
...Yesterday I *found myself* thinking I'd like keep working  for Signora Ernesta (I wasn't expecting that as I had been feeling I needed a long break for quite a while, No hint of voluntary action there)


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