# O Brasil ganhou da Croácia.



## vitor boldrin

Para traduzir isso para o inglês eu posso traduzir assim?

The Brazil won the Croatia.
The Brazil won over Croatia.
The Brazil won of the Croatia.
The Brazil won from the Croatia.

Qual dessas é a mais natural em inglês?


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## TravelOn

Brazil won over Croatia.  This is not "the most natural", but the ONLY natural way.

We do not use "the" with country names, except for our own country and very few others.  These exceptions are mainly because the "name" is sort of a descriptive statement.  "The United States" means specifically "the states which are united".  Same for the old Soviet Union.  Its full name in English was "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics".  Likewise, "The United Kingdom" (although we frequently call it incorrectly, just "England").  Other countries may take "the" if we reference their official names - "The People's Republic", or "The People's Republic of China", but never "the China".  Even "The Netherlands" is a descriptive statement, the exact equivalent of Os Países Baixos in Portuguese.  Beyond that, there always has to be an exception to everything else in English.  The Gambia - a small country in Western Africa" (and English speaking), is just that:  THE Gambia.  I don't know why.

Beyond these exceptions, the lack of "the" with country names such as Brazil and Croatia, is consistent with our lack of "the" with personal names.  Just like we never say "the John" or "the Mary", we never say "the Brazil" or "the Croatia".


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## Outsider

There are other alternatives, like "Brazil beat Croatia" or "Brazil defeated Croatia".
Can you say simply "Brazil won Croatia"?...


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## TravelOn

Grammatically speaking, you can say "Brazil won Croatia".  However, it would mean that Brazil won the COUNTRY of Croatia - not the GAME - and now Croatia is part of Brazil.  (Compare - "I won $1,000,000 in the lottery."  Meaning:  The $1,000,000 is now mine.)

Referring to the game, you have to use "over":  "Brazil won over Croatia."  You can also simply say, "Brazil won" or "Brazil won the game".  These assume, of course, that the other person already knows what you are talking about.

And yes, you can also rephrase:  "Brazil beat Croatia", "Brazil defeated Croatia", and others.


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## Outsider

Thank you for the speedy reply!


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## Alandria

Brazil TOPS Croacia.


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## sound shift

Sorry, but "tops" doesn't indicate a victory (and it's "Croa*t*ia" in English).


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## J. Bailica

Na minha _Gramática Básica do Inglês Contemporâneo_ vem muito a propósito este exemplo: "The referee won over Croatia".  (assobios...)

Não, mas arteirices à parte ocorreu-me apenas acrescentar que em Portugal só usamos  «...à Croácia».


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## TravelOn

You are dealing with subtle wording here, that is difficult to define and involves nuances.  

To elaborate on Sound Shift's comment - right. "Tops" does not mean "won".  It's more general.  The USSR topped us (USA) by sending an astronaut into space ahead of us.  But we topped them by walking on the moon.  No one WON in either case.  (Except idiomatically - that each country "won" the respect of the international community for their achievement.  You see how complicated it can get.)

As for "The referee won over Croatia" - no - at least not in the way you might think.  It has nothing to do with winning the game, or the referee's decision of who won the game.  "Win SOMEONE over" is an idiom.  It means that someone does not agree with something, or does not like something, then someone else does something to change that person's attitude and cause them to agree, or to like what they didn't like before.  I know, very confusing.  I can't think of a better way to say it.  A couple of examples should make it clearer.  A common use of this idiom concerns romantic love:  "He won her over with flowers and chocolates."  She didn't used to like him, but after he gave her lots of flowers and chocolates, she started to like him.  "Smith (a candidate for mayor, president, or whatever) won people over by promising not to raise taxes."  In this case, maybe people didn't originally disagree with Smith.  He was someone new on the political scene, so they had no opinion about him.  When he began talking a lot about never raising taxes, they began to like him.  He won them over.  

I would therefore disagree with your dictionary.  "The referee won over Croatia" is grammatically possible, but it means something like, "Croatia disagreed with the referee's decision.  Then he explained his decision, and they realized he was right.  He "won them over".  (Not a likely situation, but grammatically possible.)


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## vitor boldrin

Agora sim eu entendi t6udo muito bem explicado Brazil won over Croatia,Mayor won over the people with your promises.
Agora eu entendo mas vc deveria explicar em português.


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## vitor boldrin

Qual é mais natural?
Brazil won the game against the Croatia ou Brasil won the game over the Croatia.


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## anaczz

Parece que nenhum dos dois, segundo TravelOn, no post #2. Você leu?


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## vitor boldrin

É verdade pelo que ele disse o certo é:

Brazil won the game over Croatia.
Brazil won the match against Croatia.


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## sound shift

"... won the game *over *Croatia" doesn't sound English to me. "Brazil beat Croatia" is a common construction.


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## Stoggler

I suspect there is a usage difference between American English and British English.  In British English "Brazil won over Croatia" is very rare.  We would simply say:

 "Brazil beat Croatia"
"Brazil won the match against Croatia"
"Brazil defeated Croatia"

I would say the first example is the most common.

"Brazil won over Croatia" doesn't sound like natural (British) English to me at all.


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## Stoggler

TravelOn said:


> The Gambia - a small country in Western Africa" (and English speaking), is just that:  THE Gambia.  I don't know why.



I suspect it's because the country is named after a river.


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## TravelOn

Stoggler said:


> I suspect there is a usage difference between American English and British English.  In British English "Brazil won over Croatia" is very rare.  We would simply say:
> 
> "Brazil beat Croatia"
> "Brazil won the match against Croatia"
> "Brazil defeated Croatia"
> 
> I would say the first example is the most common.
> 
> "Brazil won over Croatia" doesn't sound like natural (British) English to me at all.



Yes, this is possibly a case of British versus American English.  I just did a Google search, "won the game over".  Among the results:

"United States' dramatic win over Ghana" - from our newspaper USA Today.
"Latvia won a close game over the US" - from a US site concerning a sport called Floorball.
"Mueller Leads Germany to 4-0 Win Over Portugal" - from Businessweek.com, an American magazine.

We could just as easily say any of the examples you gave, but "won over so-and-so" is very common here.  I didn't know it was American only.


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## TravelOn

vitor boldrin said:


> Agora sim eu entendi t6udo muito bem explicado Brazil won over Croatia,Mayor won over the people with your promises.
> Agora eu entendo mas vc deveria explicar em português.



I would love to explain in Portuguese - but believe me, if I did, you would understand a lot less.  I'm just a beginner in Portuguese.  

Eu quero explicar em português, mas e impossivel.  Eu so estou aprendendo português.


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## vitor boldrin

TravelOn said:


> I would love to explain in Portuguese - but believe me, if I did, you would understand a lot less.  I'm just a beginner in Portuguese.
> 
> Eu quero explicar em português, mas e impossivel.  Eu so estou aprendendo português.




Meu amigo se você não tentar e não ter contato com a língua portuguesa você nunca vai aprender falar português .
você acha que meu inglês é bom?
muitos nativos já tiraram sarro de mim mas eu tô tentando,mas por que de aprender a falar português?


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## TravelOn

vitor boldrin said:


> Meu amigo se você não tentar e não ter contato com a língua portuguesa você nunca vai aprender falar português .
> você acha que meu inglês é bom?
> muitos nativos já tiraram sarro de mim mas eu tô tentando,mas por que de aprender a falar português?




Você tem razão, claro.  Eu tenho, sim, contato com a língua portuguêsa.  Sou membro de dois grupos aqui em Los Angeles de falar português, e tambem estudo com livros e por ouvir muita musica brasileira, que eu adoro.  Eu posso conversar em nivel basico.  

A explicacão das frases de língua inglesa como "won the game over" é complexa.  Eu não posso explicar em portugués.  Também, e bom que quem têm perguntas do inglês, reciba resposta em inglês, você não acha?

Por que eu estou aprendendo português é para viajar no Brasil.  Eu vou em setembro.  Eu já fui duas vezes, mas com guia.  Neste ano eu estarei com grupo, mas por uns dias, não.  Eu estarei sozinha.  Preciso de falar.


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## vitor boldrin

Bom não necessariamente resposta em inglês é sempre bom vc ter respostas em português e inglês para comparar as duas línguas.
Mas por que o interesse de falar português?
Ainda bem que você não é um americano que acha que brasileiros falam espanhol.que raiva disso,fiquei sabendo que alguns americanos não gostam de brasileiros é verdade?
abraços.


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