# Etymology of "Kartveli" ~ "Georgian"



## Phosphorus

Greetings,

What is the etymology of the Georgian autonym "Kartveli"? What is its archaic form-if ever recorded? And is there any other ethnonym, be it in use or extinct, etymologically related to _Kartveli_? (Probably besides some suggestions in regard to "Kurd")

Thanks in advance.


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## Maroseika

This is from the name of the ancient East-Georgian tribe Karts. After this tribe there is also the area called Kartli.


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## Phosphorus

Thanks for your reply. I wonder where the ending part, "-veli", comes from in "Kartveli"?


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## Maroseika

Phosphorus said:


> Thanks for your reply. I wonder where the ending part, "-veli", comes from in "Kartveli"?



-eli is a suffix of nationality (espaneli - a spaniard).
As for -v- it's a difficult question. I'm far not a specialist, but from what I read I know -v- might by a part of the stem.
On the other hand,  old geographic name was Kartli (Georgia).


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## Phosphorus

I see. Yes then it stands to reason that something resembling "Kartv-*" is the root. Thanks for your help Maroseika.


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## Maroseika

Just to specify: -eli- is not a suffix of nationality, but rather a suffix of a person from some place, such as:
espeneli - a person from Spain
moskoveli - a person from Moscow
holandieli - a person from Holland

Therefore, kartveli is from the place named Kartv-. So the question is what is this -v-, if the people inhabited it were called Karts.


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## Phosphorus

I see, that is right. So based on the old geographical name that you pointed our earlier, we have two supposed toponyms : "Kartv-*" (> "Kartveli") and "Kart-" ( > "Kartli"). Then these names appear to be variants of a single word "Kart(v)-". I just speculate a connection with another allegedly Caucasian-at least in origin- people namely "Hurrians" and the probability of ethnonyms such as "Karda", "Kardo-", and later on, "Cordu-", "Cyrti?" and eventually "Kurd" sharing the very same root with "Kart(v)-".

What does happen in cases that the place name ends with "u" or "o" when "-eli" attaches the word? For example for "Milano" or "Baku" (no matter what do they actually call these cities in Georgian, only wonder to know the function)?


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## Maroseika

Phosphorus said:


> I see, that is right. So based on the old geographical name that you pointed our earlier, we have two supposed toponyms : "Kartv-*" (> "Kartveli") and "Kart-" ( > "Kartli"). Then these names appear to be variants of a single word "Kart(v)-". I just speculate a connection with another allegedly Caucasian-at least in origin- people namely "Hurrians" and the probability of ethnonyms such as "Karda", "Kardo-", and later on, "Cordu-", "Cyrti?" and eventually "Kurd" sharing the very same root with "Kart(v)-".


As far as I understand you mean the version connecting Karts and Chaldeans?




> What does happen in cases that the place name ends with "u" or "o" when "-eli" attaches the word? For example for "Milano" or "Baku" (no matter what do they actually call these cities in Georgian, only wonder to know the function)?



I can only tell you what I found in my dictionary. Unfortunately there is no Baku or Milano citizens. But there is, for example, ნორვეგიელი - norvegieli < Norvegia (from Russian Норвегия - Norway) and შოტლანდიელი - shotlandieli < Shotlandia (from Russian Шотландия - Scotland). However Baku in Georgian is ბაქო - bako and combination -oeli seems to me very unlikely for Georgean, but of course I'm not a specialist.
As for Milan, in Georgian it's Milani, so most likely it will be milanieli for Milanese.


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## ancalimon

li, lı, lu, lü  are also Turkish suffixes for "belonging to a certain geography"


Actually, literally it means "someone who is in possession of xxx"

So for example Moskovalı would mean "someone who has,owns Moscow ~ someone from Moscow".

If the geography was later named by Turkic speaking people in the past, then it might have meant: "The Old Plains" : "KartOva" and "Kartveli" : "KartOvalı would have meant "Those who own the Old Plains"

There is also the stronger possibility (if the word is Turkic that is) that it is related with "Koru">"Korut" meaning "protected-defendable place".


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## Phosphorus

Maroseika said:


> As far as I understand you mean the version connecting Karts and Chaldeans?



Well I do not think whether it is related to the Chaldean proper or not, but I specifically am seeking a connection between "Kartv-*" and an allegedly Sumerian "Kar-da" (also "Qardu"?); the last one which is later recorded as "Cardu[choi]" or "Cordu[ene]" in Greek sources and further we find it as "Cyrti-" and "Kwrt-" (pronounced as "Kurd") in Greek and Middle Persian sources respectively. It eventually results into modern "Kurd" and its various variants (Kurt, Kirt, Kird).

I do speculate that this ethnonym, "Kurd", is in relation with the ancient dwellers of modern Kurdistan, namely "Hurrians", who are kind of regarded to have bonds with Caucasia-thence having something to do with "Kartv-*", possibly.




Maroseika said:


> I can only tell you what I found in my dictionary. Unfortunately there is no Baku or Milano citizens. But there is, for example, ნორვეგიელი - norvegieli < Norvegia (from Russian Норвегия - Norway) and შოტლანდიელი - shotlandieli < Shotlandia (from Russian Шотландия - Scotland). However Baku in Georgian is ბაქო - bako and combination -oeli seems to me very unlikely for Georgean, but of course I'm not a specialist.
> As for Milan, in Georgian it's Milani, so most likely it will be milanieli for Milanese.



I see, thanks for your help Maroseika I appreciate it. I think it would be really helpful if we knew what do Georgian call someone from "Bako": *Bakveli?!


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## Phosphorus

ancalimon said:


> li, lı, lu, lü  are also Turkish suffixes for "belonging to a certain geography"
> 
> 
> Actually, literally it means "someone who is in possession of xxx"
> 
> So for example Moskovalı would mean "someone who has,owns Moscow ~ someone from Moscow".
> 
> If the geography was later named by Turkic speaking people in the past, then it might have meant: "The Old Plains" : "KartOva" and "Kartveli" : "KartOvalı would have meant "Those who own the Old Plains"
> 
> There is also the stronger possibility (if the word is Turkic that is) that it is related with "Koru">"Korut" meaning "protected-defendable place".



Yes the Georgian suffix in this case resembles Turkic "-lu/i". But "Kartveli" might be resulted from "Karto*"+"eli", while any supposed Turkic form would result in either "Kartolu" or "Kartvali" (if only for a second on this earth we forget that it is Georgian which is discussed here, not a Turkic speech!).

Sumerian "Kar-da" (Qardu) is recorded in the 3rd millennium BC and suggests a certain geography far away from the Central Asian steps-where Turks are believed to be originated-so any connection with any Turkic words is much more than far-fetched (let alone the fact that the oldest evidence of a Turkic speech dates back only to the 7th century-leaving any assumption with an additionally huge chronic gap of around 3000 years; also Turkic "qoruq*" is already attested in Kurdish, Persian and other new Iranian languages in form of "qoroq").


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## TobyAshworth

I'm very much not an expert on this, but surely the root can't be 'kartv-' since the Georgian word for the Georgian Language is ქართული,_ Kartuli, _which appears to have the root 'kart-'..?, and coming originally from the name of the supposed 'father' of Georgia, who was called Kartlos, hence the geographic region Kartli..
We now have the terms _Kartveli, _denoting a person Kartli/Georgia, and _Sakartvelo, _which comes from the circumfix Sa-X-o, with X being an ethnonym, meaning 'the area where X dwell', so the V must have been put in, meaning or not, to affect the root between _Kartli_ and _Kartveli.

_
Reading back over this I haven't really helped a lot.


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## TobyAshworth

Oh, and this looks interesting:
http://www.kartvfund.org.ge/index.php?act=page&id=33.58&lang=en


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## Jasmine05

Baku in Georgian is "Bako" and the person will be "Bakoeli", in case of Milan "Milani" in Georgian person will be Milaneli (i will be dropped).


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## Phosphorus

TobyAshworth said:


> I'm very much not an expert on this, but surely the root can't be 'kartv-' since the Georgian word for the Georgian Language is ქართული,_ Kartuli, _which appears to have the root 'kart-'..?, and coming originally from the name of the supposed 'father' of Georgia, who was called Kartlos, hence the geographic region Kartli..
> We now have the terms _Kartveli, _denoting a person Kartli/Georgia, and _Sakartvelo, _which comes from the circumfix Sa-X-o, with X being an ethnonym, meaning 'the area where X dwell', *so the V must have been put in, meaning or not, to affect the root between Kartli and *_*Kartveli*.
> 
> _
> Reading back over this I haven't really helped a lot.



That was really helpful Toby, thank you indeed.


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## Phosphorus

TobyAshworth said:


> Oh, and this looks interesting:
> http://www.kartvfund.org.ge/index.php?act=page&id=33.58&lang=en



Instructive link. Thanks again.


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## Phosphorus

Jasmine05 said:


> Baku in Georgian is "Bako" and the person will be "*Bakoeli*", in case of Milan "Milani" in Georgian person will be Milaneli (i will be dropped).



Thank you Jasmine05, that really helps.


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## TobyAshworth

In my link as above: 
'The ethnonym *Karet-i yields the stem Kart through the contraction of the vowel e, caused by the addition to it of the suffix of provenance -el and of the suffixes -ev or -av of geographical names. It has been hypothesized (Burchuladze 1999: 128) that Kartveli and Kartli were derived independently from the Kart stem: *Kart-ev-el-i // *Kart-av-el-i > Kartveli. *Kart-el-i > Kartli. The latter hypothesis is supported by the Megrelian and Laz Kortu (Kort-u=Kart-el): Kort is a regular correspondence of Georgian Kart, and as has been observed (Gamkrelidze and Machavariani 1965: 89-93; see Boeder 1982), the Zanian -u is a transformation of the Georgian -el suffix.'

I'm not sure on the provenance of this, but it seems like a fairly conclusive conclusion about the origin of the -v- in Kartveli.


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