# FR: jamais sur des toilettes publiques



## Hashiru

I'm totally messed up with my articles now... please help explain.

1)She would never sit on public toilets.
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur des toilettes publiques.

2)The toilet is on the second floor.
Les toilettes sont au deuxième étage.

Both sentences are taken from WR.  Why is it "des toilettes" in the first but "Les toilettes" in the second?  I would have put "les" in both cases....


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## PIKILIA

1)She would never sit on public toilets.
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur des toilettes publiques.

meaning on _any_ public toilets, not one in particular

2)The toilet is on the second floor.
Les toilettes sont au deuxième étage

toilet = toilettes (bathroom)


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## melu85

...sur les toilettes publiques


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## Hashiru

really??? "les" in the first example too?
WR is wrong?  this is a huge confidence boost to my article-sensing.  I basically just use whatever article that 'sounds' correct...which will no doubt cost me marks one day


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## Hashiru

wait...so is it "des" or "les" for Example1?

Pikilia, I think I'm beginning to see why it is "des" in Eg.1 now...


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## PIKILIA

des toilettes : some toilets (like in "Are there any public toilets in this parc? _Il y a DES toilettes publiques dans ce parc?_
les toilettes : the toilets (like in "where are the toilets?" _Où sont LES toilettes?_)

Has to do with specific or general...


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## timpeac

PIKILIA said:


> des toilettes : some toilets (like in "Are there any public toilets in this parc? _Il y a DES toilettes publiques dans ce parc?_
> les toilettes : the toilets (like in "where are the toilets?" _Où sont LES toilettes?_)
> 
> Has to do with specific or general...


But surely in example one we are talking about general toilettes, any and every public toilette, so why des?


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## Hashiru

What about this sentence?
Il loue des chambres à des étudiants.

"Des" should be used here right?


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## PIKILIA

ok, here's something that can explain better than me! LE, LA, lES, DES... It has to do with undefined, defined object you are talking about...

http://french.chass.utoronto.ca/fre180/Articles.html

Hope it helps!


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## timpeac

That's a bit of a cop-out PIKILIA What's your opinion of what is the right choice of "des" and "les" in the first example, and what's the difference of meaning to you if you heard it?


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## PIKILIA

Well, it is quite hard to explain because sometimes, both can be used. Usually, we use _des_ when talking about something that is not defined by the person who talks but in a general way. You could maybe replace DES by ANY or SOME in english to help you decide.

And as for LES, it refers to something more defined, you could replace it by THE in english to help you decide. In the second example, it is defined by the person who is asking 

_eg:_

Où sont les (the toilets in this very building here) toilettes. 
Les toilettes (those you just mentioned) are on the second floor

ouf! hope it helps! not easy...


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## timpeac

PIKILIA said:


> Well, it is quite hard to explain because sometimes, both can be used. Usually, we use _des_ when talking about something that is not defined by the person who talks but in a general way. You could maybe replace DES by ANY or SOME in english to help you decide.


Yes, that's a good way of puting it I think, so it would be -

She would never sit on (any) public toilets.
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur des toilettes publiques.

She would never sit on public toilets.
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur les toilettes publiques.


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## PIKILIA

I think I have found a way to decide in case of a doubt:

She would never sit on public toilets
Which toilets? any toilets 
therefore...
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur des toilettes publiques.


She would never sit on THE public toilets.
Which toilets ? the restaurant's toilets

then

Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur les toilettes publiques (celles du restaurant)

Does it makes sense? tricky...


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## timpeac

PIKILIA said:


> I think I have found a way to decide in case of a doubt:
> 
> She would never sit on public toilets
> Which toilets? any toilets
> therefore...
> Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur des toilettes publiques.
> 
> 
> She would never sit on THE public toilets.
> Which toilets ? the restaurant's toilets
> 
> then
> 
> Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur les toilettes publiques (celles du restaurant)
> 
> Does it makes sense? tricky...


No, I don't think so otherwise "I don't like toilets" (any toilets) would be "je n'aime pas des toilettes" instead of "je n'aime pas les toilettes".


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## PIKILIA

maybe I am wrong, but _Je n'aime pas les toilettes _sounds incomplete to me. It is if you were saying _I don't like the toilets_... which toilets? Here? Public toilets? My toilets?


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## timpeac

PIKILIA said:


> maybe I am wrong, but _Je n'aime pas les toilettes _sounds incomplete to me. It is if you were saying _I don't like the toilets_... which toilets? Here? Public toilets? My toilets?


Any toilets anywhere of any sort (it's not a very common thing you'd hear said of course) - or would that be "des toilettes" then?


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## PIKILIA

Well, you can always say _Je n'aime pas les toilette_s... but just be prepared to hear something like : What? which ones?. Then, you'll have to be more precise because they'll think they've missed on something. Interesting anyway!


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## Hashiru

it has been indeed
thank you all


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## timpeac

PIKILIA said:


> Well, you can always say _Je n'aime pas les toilette_s... but just be prepared to hear something like : What? which ones?. Then, you'll have to be more precise because they'll think they've missed on something. Interesting anyway!


Thanks for the information. I think that we might be getting confused by the fact that this would be a very strange thing to say anyway. Say we take it to "je n'aime pas les chats". Here we are talking about any cats of any type, but it is still "les" (right?) so the logic of post 13 wouldn't hold.


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## PIKILIA

cats (all existing cats), dogs, birds... are nouns use a specific category of animals. Specific = les


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## Geysere

When I posed a similar question to my French professor, his logic is this:
Je n'aime pas les toilettes  because you can just claim that you don't like all the toilets in the world.
Elle ne s'asseyait jamais sur les toilettes publiques (where "les" is intended to mean general toilets)  because there are still public toilets in the world that she doesn't know and she has not yet refused to use them.

He thinks that most verbs cannot be used with "les" to mean "any" except "aimer", "detester", etc.  I'm not quite satisfied with this explaination but is there a better one?


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## itka

_"Je n'aime pas les toilettes"_ is a weird sentence.
What would it mean ? I don't like to go to the toilets ? (anyone, anywhere ?)  

You have to be more precise : _"je n'aime pas les toilettes publiques"_. _"Je n'aime pas les toilettes de ce restaurant : elles ne sont pas propres"._ _"Cet établissement est très bien, mais je n'aime pas les toilettes : leur décoration est de mauvais goût."_
_"Je ne m'assois jamais sur les toilettes publiques".
"Où sont les toilettes, s'il vous plaît ? - Elles sont au fond, à gauche"._

"Je n'aime pas des toilettes"  is not a french sentence.
_"Y a-t-il des toilettes ici ?" _ (de+ les)
_"Est-ce que tu as vu des toilettes dans ce parc ?"_ (de+ les)

_"Non, il n'y a pas de toilettes dans ce véhicule !"_ (negative form : pas de)
_"Où es ton  père ? - Il est allé aux toilettes"_ (à +les)

Hope it helps.


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## Maître Capello

itka said:


> _"Je n'aime pas les toilettes"_ is a weird sentence.
> What would it mean ?


Simplement que d'une manière générale tu n'aimes pas cette « pièce ». (Je ne vois pas ce qui te paraît étrange… )


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## itka

Maître Capello said:


> Simplement que d'une manière générale tu n'aimes pas cette « pièce ». (Je ne vois pas ce qui te paraît étrange… )


 Ta phrase, d'accord "Je n'aime pas cette pièce" ! 
Mais _"je n'aime pas les toilettes"_... qu'est-ce que ça voudrait dire ? On ne peut pas aimer ou ne pas aimer les toilettes, en général ! On est bien obligé de s'en servir...  (à moins que tu ne sois un adepte de la vie aux champs ! )

Est-ce que tu dirais : _"Je n'aime pas la chambre"_, _"Je n'aime pas le couloir"_ ou _"Je n'aime pas la salle de bains" _sans faire référence à des lieux clairement identifiés par le contexte ? 

Ou alors, il y a une autre possibilité, mais qui ne marche pas avec "les toilettes" qui sont déjà au pluriel : _"Je n'aime pas *les* chambre*s*" "Je n'aime pas *les* couloir*s*" etc._ pour indiquer que tu n'aimes pas ce genre d'endroit...


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## Maître Capello

itka said:


> Ou alors, il y a une autre possibilité, mais qui ne marche pas avec "les toilettes" qui sont déjà au pluriel : _"Je n'aime pas *les* chambre*s*" "Je n'aime pas *les* couloir*s*" etc._ pour indiquer que tu n'aimes pas ce genre d'endroit...


Oui, c'est bien ce que je sous-entendais : dans ce sens pluriel et donc général, on peut dire _Je n'aime pas les toilettes_… (Le « pluriel d'un pluriel » reste un pluriel…)


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