# -тся (pronunciation)



## olit

Hello all 
I'm very new to learning Russian but have noticed that in words such as 'нравится' and 'кажется' the letters 'тс' are used together even the Russians already have a letter for this sound in 'ц'. Firstly I was wondering why this is the case (if there is a reason) but more importantly I was wondering if there was any subtle differences in pronunciation? Could/would 'кажеця' be pronounced the same way for example?


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## Enquiring Mind

Hello Olit, and welcome to the forum!  

Words in Russian (just as in English) are spelt primarily not because of how they sound, but usually because the spelling reflects the word's etymology and/or indicates its grammatical function, or for other reasons. For example, the ся at the end of the conjugation form tells us the verb is (grammatically) reflexive.  In English, for example, we could ask why is "write" spelt "wr" when there is already the same sound represented solely by the letter "r". Why not just write rite, right? 

Kажеця  is impossible because of the spelling rules in Russian (source: russianlessons.net).  In that link, you will see that you cannot write the vowel я after the hard consonant ц.


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## ahvalj

A further explanation is that these two sounds originally merged with a then-soft _ць_ (that still exists in Ukrainian: _ведеться_ is pronounced _вэдэця_), which later hardened as any _ц_ in Russian.


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## Awwal12

Enquiring Mind said:


> Words in Russian (just as in English) are spelt primarily not because of how they sound, but usually because the spelling reflects the word's etymology and/or indicates its grammatical function, or for other reasons.


Well, not exactly as in English. Given a stress and knowing several rules and exceptions, pronunciation of a Russian word is totally predictable - so we don't need transcriptions. English orthography is completely historical; Russian orthography combines phonetic, etymological and historical principles.


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## Ma_linka

Hi, olit. The pronunciation of -тс and -ц are a bit different. 
You can remember it this way though. You can pronounce -тся as -ца in fast colloquial speech. For example, кажеЦА, нравиЦА.

It would be a mistake though to write it this way. We are talking only about the pronunciation here (though if you read some Russian forums, you might find that lots of youngsters write these verbs this way. This is done to avoid learning the difference between -тся and -ться, facilitates the Russian language and is actually very wrong).


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## Maroseika

Ma_linka said:


> The pronunciation of -тс and -ц are a bit different.



Can you specify what exactly difference you mean?


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## ahvalj

Ma_linka said:


> Hi, olit. The pronunciation of -тс and -ц are a bit different.
> You can remember it this way though. You can pronounce -тся as -ца in fast colloquial speech. For example, кажеЦА, нравиЦА.


_водица_ and _водиться_ are pronounced absolutely identically: if you do it differently, you speak Russian with an accent


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## djwebb1969

There is an interesting section in the book The Russian Language in the 20th Century comparing the Old Moscow pronunciation that was once prestigious with the accepted standard today. The older pronunciation was given by Avanesov in 1972, but by 1984 he advocated the newer one. 

Old system
*(...)*
* infinitive in ть: pronounced hard, eg. учиться (both the old and new pronunciations agree this is pronounced учит-са).

-ться -тся are therefore the only forms that must have a hard s in them in the modern pronunciation, and a note in the book says that this produces an affricate with a long stop: /ttsə/, which implies they might be different to ц, at least in terms of the length of the t. And forms like нёсся can have either a hard or soft s in them.


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## djwebb1969

Ahvalj, I just saw your comment - do you agree that there is a long /tts/ in these endings? I only quoted from the book and don't have independent knowledge of it myself.


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## ahvalj

djwebb1969 said:


> Ahvalj, I just saw your comment - do you agree that there is a long /tts/ in these endings? I only quoted from the book and don't have independent knowledge of it myself.


No, in Russian there is definitely no long _цц_ (except occasionally in the Italian borrowings like _пицца_, _палаццо_ or _меццо, _though they too are normally pronounced with a plain short _ц_). The long _ц_, however, is pronounced and written in this form in Belarusian (_говорится_ — _гаворыцца_). I have no idea how this pronunciation ever came to some publications: in the poetry, -_тся_/-_ться_ perfectly rhymes with -_ца_, so this short _ц_ is certainly not new.

Your examples with -_ся_ pronounced as -_са_ reflect a peculiarity of the old Moscow pronunciation that hardly was widespread far away from the Moscow region. In St. Petersburg it probably existed in the beginning, as the city was initially populated by Muscovites, but already in the 19th century, if I am not wrong, it was levelled back to -_ся_. Today this -_са_ sounds totally outdated and, dare I say, ugly.


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## Ma_linka

ahvalj said:


> _водица_ and _водиться_ are pronounced absolutely identically: if you do it differently, you speak Russian with an accent


Yeah, perhaps you are right. At least, it's easier to remember it this way. 
I just felt for a second that водица is pronounced more flowing and harsher than the word водиться. 

olit, ц     sounds like "ts" in that's.


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## mosquit

There is a nuance.
The fact is that ц inside the word is often (though not always) long by itself.

Examples (relatively fast speech required):

_Пт*и*цу в*и*дел_ - long ц (as цц).
_Птиц ув*и*дел_ - short ц.

_Пол*и*ция_ - long ц.
_Мн*о*го лиц и я_ - short ц.

_Нем*е*цкий_ - rather long ц.
_Взял н*е*мец кий_ - short ц.

However,

_*а*кция, цен*а*, приц*е*п_ - short ц.


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## djwebb1969

Thanks, mosquit - that is probably a nuance I would have missed.


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## ahvalj

mosquit said:


> There is a nuance.
> The fact is that ц inside the word is often (though not always) long by itself.
> 
> Examples (relatively fast speech required):
> 
> _Пт*и*цу в*и*дел_ - long ц (as цц).
> _Птиц ув*и*дел_ - short ц.
> 
> _Пол*и*ция_ - long ц.
> _Мн*о*го лиц и я_ - short ц.
> 
> _Нем*е*цкий_ - rather long ц.
> _Взял н*е*мец кий_ - short ц.
> 
> However,
> 
> _*а*кция, цен*а*, приц*е*п_ - short ц.


This is not the consonant length, but a short pause when a speaker wants to emphasize a separate pronunciation of two words. You can substitute _ц_ with any other consonant. I recall this was discussed some months ago and even the example _птиц увидел_ looks familiar.


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## ahvalj

Here is the previous discussion: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2745776


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## djwebb1969

OK - I've got it now. I've just read the previous discussion.


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> This is not the consonant length, but a short pause when a speaker wants to emphasize a separate pronunciation of two words. You can substitute _ц_ with any other consonant.


No, I am not agree. Note that the examples show the opposite!


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## ahvalj

mosquit said:


> No, I am not agree. Note that the examples show the opposite!


Yet I think that a gap in the air flow between ц (or any other consonant) and the first sound of the next word, which appears when a speaker intentionally separates two words to avoid ambiguity, is caused not by lengthening of the same consonant but by a short interruption created by the entire mouth apparatus.


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> Yet I think that a gap in the air flow between ц (or any other consonant) and the first sound of the next word, which appears when a speaker intentionally separates two words to avoid ambiguity, is caused not by lengthening of the same consonant but by a short interruption created by the entire mouth apparatus.



Compare:

Р*о*ту в*и*дел
Рот ув*и*дел

It sounds absolutely identical (if only not to do special pauses between words).


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## ahvalj

mosquit said:


> Compare:
> 
> Р*о*ту в*и*дел
> Рот ув*и*дел
> 
> It sounds absolutely identical (if only not to do special pauses between words).


As it is with _птиц/у/видел_. I am glad you have finally realized this.


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> As it is with _птиц/у/видел_. I am glad you have finally realized this.


No, in _птицу видел_ ц sounds considerably longer than in _птиц увидел_. At least I hear it quite clearly.
See also other my examples.


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## Словеса

ahvalj said:


> _водица_ and _водиться_ are pronounced absolutely identically: if you do it differently, you speak Russian with an accent.


The question is whether people speak Russian with an accent. В колодце водица and в колодце водиться.


mosquit said:


> Р*о*ту в*и*дел
> Рот ув*и*дел


Полякипелижуравлями...


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## ahvalj

Словеса said:


> The question is whether people speak Russian with an accent. В колодце водица and в колодце водиться.
> 
> Полякипелижуравлями...


Так кто на ком стоял?


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## Словеса

ahvalj said:


> Так кто на ком стоял?


Everyone decides for himself... I only brought in examples for use.
My impression is that both well phrases are pronounced the same in non-careful speech.


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## ahvalj

OK, to make it clear, I think that:
(1) -_ца_ and -_ться_/-_тся_ are pronounced absolutely identically in every imaginable situation;
(2) the final _ц_ is not lengthened even when a speaker wants to separate the word from the following one.


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## Словеса

If someone wants to pronounce them differently, he can do it (let's say, by dismantling the _с_ out of the _ц_). It's not any more weird than trying to pronounce all yots that are dictated by the rules of writing. Whether anyone wants at any time to do it, I don't know. I'm not sure it's a matter of general rules.


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> OK, to make it clear, I think that:
> (1) -_ца_ and -_ться_/-_тся_ are pronounced absolutely identically in every imaginable situation;
> (2) the final _ц_ is not lengthened even when a speaker wants to separate the word from the following one.



Попробую все-таки по-русски...

(1) полностью согласен;
(2) да, _ц_ в конце слова не удлиняется. А наоборот, укорачивается.


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