# non-past verb + tokoro



## Starfrown

その橋のあがるところを見たがったので...

Would this fragment absolutely have to mean:
 
"Since (they) wanted to see the place where the bridge rises..."
 
and NOT:
 
"Since (they) wanted to see the bridge on the verge of rising..."
 
or something of that nature?
 
Thanks


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## masatom

Hello, Starfrown

Unfortunatelly ところ is not the place in this context.

You may think that あがる＝rise , ところ＝ing  , あがるところ＝rising
So I think the meaning of the sentence is this;

Since they wanted to see the bridge rising....

We also say その橋のあがる*の*を見たがったので...
In this sentence の=ところ＝ing, which make a verb into a noun.

I wish this might be your help.


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## Starfrown

Thanks for the reply

I'm having some trouble with the use of tokoro.  What would the above sentence mean if I put "agatte iru tokoro" in the place of "agaru tokoro"?


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## Demurral

korosu tokoro: to be about of killing. Just starting to kill. (do not mix it with "masu-kei+dasu, start to).

koroshite iru tokoro: be killing in this right moment. be killing just now.

korshita tokoro: to have just finishe to kill.

hope it helps!


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## Starfrown

What about in the sentence:
 
どこへ行くところもないじゃないか
 
Would this refer to a place or would it be referring to an action i.e. going?


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## Demurral

Starfrown said:


> What about in the sentence:
> 
> どこへ行くところもないじゃないか
> 
> Would this refer to a place or would it be referring to an action i.e. going?



I would swear that in this sentence "tokoro" means just "place".

A possible translation could be: there's no where we can go, is there?

(I don't know how to "question-tag" the "there is" structure)


PD: this kind of sentences are tricky. I found myself some ways to put the "even-meaning" of _mo_ in a sentence. E.g.: I think _Doko-de itemo_ (wherever you are) means the same as _doko-demo itara_. 

Hope it helps.


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## Starfrown

I, too, am pretty sure that it just means "place" here, but it seems that if tokoro functioned as a nominalizer instead, that the sentence might still work, perhaps being translated as:

"There's no going anywhere, is there?"

Which would be almost the same as the translation you offered.


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## Flaminius

Hi,

I think your example sentence should be:
どこへ*も*行くところ*が*ないじゃないか

A Wh-clause plus _-mo_ forestalls negation of the matrix verb and augment the predicate with universal negative.


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## Starfrown

The sentence is from a work by Yukio Mishima.


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## Flaminius

Thank you, *Starfrown*.  It is high time I understood that Japanese is far more flexible than what I conceive as Japanese.

What I said above still holds true if どこへ行くところ is to be understood as an extended Wh-clause.  Do we need to consider ところ as having moved from the position of どこ and enquire if there is an operation to insert どこ later??


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## Starfrown

I don't understand your question exactly.


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## Flaminius

It wasn't so much a question as amazement at the grammatical complexity of what seems to me the most natural construction; どこへも行くところがない.


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