# avare comme un rat



## lobelia.ophrys

Hello everybody,

I wonder if there's an idiom in English to say "avare comme un rat"?

→ "c'est une sale égoïste, avare comme un rat!"

I thought of "*miser like a rat*" but does it make sense for English speaking people?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## wildan1

Hello acid...burn,

The adjective is _miser_*ly *(from the noun _miser_)

The expression would be_ "He's as miserly as a _______"_, but I am not sure that_ "rat"_ is a likely comparison to make in English.

An online search suggests _"...as a sleeping marmot"_, no doubt drawn from some literary source. First time for me to see it, however.


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

"as miserly as a rat"   - I wouldn't use 'like' in English .... it's a good image but not a well-known one - I don't think I've heard it used.


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

I think I found the perfect one on the "English only" forum → "tight as a fish’s arse" or simply "she's like a Scrooge" ;-)


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

As tight as a duck's arse!  - a bit vulgar!  She's a tight-arsed little bitch!  - the duck's arse phrase often has " .... and that's water-tight!" added on the end.


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

[citez judicieusement et tronquez au minimum nécessaire]

Yes, they told me it was quite vulgar but I needed the idiom to be quite mean, vulgar etc because my character (who's going to say this) is an old woman, very mean and spiteful!

But regarding the "duck" I didn't know.

The only problem was that "arse" is British and I'd prefer a word that is English (for UK and USA but not only UK).


----------



## wildan1

The problem with _tight_ is that it also can mean _tipsy_, especially when describing a woman. It also could have a vulgar sexual connotation.

With no further detail, saying _"She's really tight"_, for example, could mean several things. So the context surrounding the statement would have to be clear for it to make real sense.

_Cheap, chincy, tight-fisted_ are also synonyms, more commonplace than the rather literary term _miserly,_ that would not be confused with other meanings.


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

[citez judicieusement et tronquez au minimum nécessaire]
Ouch! Certainly not a vulgar sexual connotation!!!! My character is very mean but not like that!!!

Here's the whole sentence:

"I have three daughters, if you want to know, and the eldest one is a dirty selfish woman, *tight as a fish’s arse*, who lives alone in her huge villa and who stopped talking to me eleven years ago."


----------



## wildan1

Now I'm confused, a...b. Is your source text in English or in French? Your first post


acid...burn said:


> → "c'est une sale égoïste, avare comme un rat!"


...suggested the original was in French...


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

[citez judicieusement et tronquez au minimum nécessaire]

The original text is in French but I gave you the translation of the full text ;-)


----------



## wildan1

Than, no, _tight as a fish's arse _could well suggest a sexual meaning, at least to AE-speakers. To me it isn't a good match.

_Tight-fisted _is an unambiguous option here.

How about simply _"She's as tight-fisted as they come"_?


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

That sounds good to me! Hopefully I asked before writing "_tight as a fish's arse_" in my script!!!

Thank you very much for your help!


----------



## Angela Thomas

A couple more ideas: as stingy as a miser, a real penny pincher, _informal_: a real skinflint, cheapskate, or tightwad
To me the informal ones sound meaner...


----------



## Keith Bradford

I'd say "as mean as Scrooge".  Or simply "a Scrooge".

(Is this because I've just seen a couple of TV versions of _A Christmas Carol_, I wonder?)


----------



## Itisi

I have never heard 'avare comme un rat'.  Why not simply 'as stingy as a rat'?


----------



## wildan1

To me a rat evokes the sense of _dirty_ or _sneaky_, but not stingy. That's why I suggested at the beginning that we look for a different simile that makes sense in English.


----------



## Itisi

It's no different in French...


----------



## catheng06

et si on essayait : 

....égoïste, rat au possible et qui vit...... 


être rat en français a parfois le sens de radin...... Il est rat/quel rat ! On peut le dire de qqn qui ne laisse pas de pourboire ou un pourboire ridicule par exemple. 

Qu'en pensez vous ?


----------



## Nicomon

Je me suis posé la question :  Pourquoi « comme un rat » ?  Alors, pour ceux que cela pourrait intéresser...    Avare comme un rat


> _*Origine *_: *Expression française* populaire issue du vocabulaire latin car le terme rat aurait dit-on la même origine que rapiat qui en latin deviendrait rapere et prendrait le sens d’enlever. De ce fait, *le rat* dans cette expression serait *un diminutif de rapiat* signifiant non seulement avare mais aussi cupide et voleur.


  Je cite ce qui suit, extrait de ce livre parce que j'ai trouvé cela amusant - ce n'est pas vraiment un suggestion.  





> Unfortunately, she is better known for her eccentricities and miserly ways—and she was *as tightfisted as a bare-knuckled boxer. *


 Hetty Green (lien vers sa bio) :


----------



## Itisi

Ah, so there is such an expression... Sorry !


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

Itisi   - Certainly "stingy" is best; "miserly" is more correct but stingy is a bit slang and more negative!  
As for "as a rat" - it seems to exist and work in French - but I can't think of an animal who is stingy/miserly and rapacious --- perhaps "as stingy as a magpie" but that was just made up by me and is certainly not a common phrase!


----------



## Nicomon

If you read the origin, guillaume... you'll see that the « _rat _» of the French expression is a diminutive of « _rapiat_ », a synonym of _ pingre/radin _which I don't think is very common anymore.
So we're not talking about the rodent.

At the very bottom of the article that I linked to, you see : 





> _*Expression française synonyme*_ : Avare comme un écossais


  And that would be _"as stingy as a Scotchman"... _but well, that's not very nice for the Scotch. 

You could _c_ombine "stingy" and Scrooge :  _as stingy as Scroo_ge.  Or like Keith suggested :  _a mean Scrooge. 
_
And I would replace "_dirty selfish woman" _by something else in the English version.   
I suspect that the French original is _« une sale égoiste »,  _and that's more like _selfish bitch. _


----------



## Language Hound

Thank you, Nico, for researching the origin of the expression (post #19).
I had to look up _rapiat_, which Larousse defines as follows:





> *rapiat*
> (f rapiate) [rapja, at] (très familier)
> nom masculin, nom féminin
> skinflint, meany (UK)


(_Tightfisted_ and _stingy_ are given for the adjective form.)

I like AT's "informal" suggestions (post #13) and agree that they sound meaner.
For some reason, my AE ear prefers the sound of *a real cheapskate*/*a real skinflint* to the similes suggested.
However, I think the choice will depend on the rest of the text in AB's script.

P.S.  Thanks also, Nico, for the link to Hetty Green's bio.  What a fascinating read!


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

Sorry for my (very) late answer but I didn't even see there was so many answers to that thread!!!

Thank you very much to all of you for your help! 

Indeed, it's a very outdated expression in French, but since my character is an old woman, it was perfect for her


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

and another very late response - "as mean as a polecat" - a polecat is also supposed to be rapacious (like a magpie).


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

guillaumedemanzac said:


> and another very late response - "as mean as a polecat" - also supposed to be rapacious like a magpie.



That's a funny one!


----------



## C. E. Whitehead

The expressions I know: "greedy as a pig"; also "stingy as a miser" maybe (I think the latter is said; the former definitely is but it's a cliche and not the most colorful or useful expression thus). Try also "grasping" -- which does convey the sense of a grasping, greedy, animal as well as of stinginess perhaps.


----------



## C. E. Whitehead

wildan1 said:


> An online search suggests _"...as a sleeping marmot"_, no doubt drawn from some literary source. First time for me to see it, however.


I like "sleeping marmot".


----------



## Nicomon

I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't think we need to replace  the French « rat  » of the expression by an animal noun.

Once again :  





> De ce fait, *le rat* dans cette expression serait *un diminutif de rapiat* signifiant non seulement avare mais aussi cupide et voleur.


But then we read on the same page (link in post 19) : 





> Selon d’autres interprétations l’allusion au rat ferait référence aux provisions qu’effectue l’animal pour les conserver en cachette pour les consommer qu’avec une grande parcimonie.


  I didn't know that about rats.  That makes me think more of a _squirrel_ (which does resemble a rat). 

As miserly as a sleeping marmot  (that I never heard) yields only *7 *results, all from the same source.  It's cute, but well... not very common.

I'm not familiar with "_as mean as a polecat_", but I wouldn't have associated it to someone who's _tight-fisted/stingy/a skinflint _or _cheapskate..._like Scrooge or Hetty Green.

@ acid...burn :  Assuming that you had made your decision back in December, what did you end up choosing?  I'm curious to know.


----------



## lobelia.ophrys

[citez judicieusement et tronquez au minimum nécessaire]
Haha, well, since it's for a screenplay, I edit it all the time for the moment, but my first idea was using "a real Scrooge" because I think it it fits perfectly the context


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

C. E. Whitehead said:


> The expressions I know: "greedy as a pig"; also "stingy as a miser" maybe (I think the latter is said; the former definitely is but it's a cliche and not the most colorful or useful expression thus). Try also "grasping" -- which does convey the sense of a grasping, greedy, animal as well as of stinginess perhaps.



Both are similes and 'greedy as a pig' is so common a comparison that it can be regarded as a cliché.
However 'greedy' does not mean miserly or stingy; it means 'gourmand' when describing someone eating like a pig (you can say someone eating all the food in the fridge is being really *piggy*) and 'grasping' when talking about money.

'Mean' also has the meaning of tight-fisted or avaricious but can have the meaning of hard and nasty e.g. "He's a mean little bastard!" or "He's really mean to her!"


----------



## Nicomon

@ acid...burn :  Merci de ta réponse.  Ma curiosité est assouvie, et à mon avis c'est un bon choix.


----------

