# What is that you want? (That = lo que?)



## CuervoGold

Hola a todos,

Estoy un poco confundida con la función del pronombre "that" en _"What is* that* you want?"_ That, is it a relative pronoun or "the thing that"?

Pensaba que la forma correcta de traducir al inglés "¿Qué es lo que quieres?" era What is* it that *you want? O bien What is what you want?

¿El "that" puede utilizarse como sinónimo de "aquello que", con el sentido de "what"? 

Creo que está bien dicho decir "It's money that I want" or "Money is what I want" 
*
Is it right to say "Money is that I want"?*


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## Chasint

What is that you want?

What is it that you want?   [What is it - that you want?]

What is what you want?



"It's money that I want" 

"Money is what I want" 

"Money is that I want"



The most usual phrase is: What do you want?


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## CuervoGold

Thank you, Biffo! I came across this sentence - "What is that you  want?"- on a website and if you type it in Google, it appears on  thousands of websites!!!


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## Chasint

The examples I found on Google looked like typing errors.

If I use Google ngram, I get zero occurrences of *what is that you want* when I search British publications.
http://books.google.com/ngrams/grap...00&year_end=2000&corpus=18&smoothing=3&share=

If, on the other hand, I search US publications, I do get a very tiny number of occurrences. (0.0000000151% in the year 2000).
http://books.google.com/ngrams/grap...00&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=

Let's see if any AE forum members can shed light on this. Is this really allowable in AE? I assumed it was a simple typing error.


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## Cenzontle

I'm embarrassed by the evidently inferior typing skills of my compatriots.
But at least we don't violate good grammar by saying"What is that you want?"


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## echinocereus

Absolutely not, Biffo.  "What is that you want" is not acceptable to AE speakers either.  Adding an "it" makes it acceptable:  "What is it that you want?"  Yes, "What is what you want," meaning "What is that which you want," has all the necessary grammatical components, but I think it sounds a bit overdone.  "What is it that you want" and, as you said, Biffo, the simple, clear "What do you want?" are preferable.  Saludos.


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## CuervoGold

Thank you very much for your answers!* If "What is that you want?" is not acceptable*, as you all have said, what about these examples with other verbs?

_- What is* that you've got written* on your helmet?_  Full Metal Jacket movie
-_  "What is* that you express* in your eyes? _(Walt Whitman)
- _"What is* that you say*?"_ (Radiohead's song)


I'm still confused because we translate all these sentences to Spanish as "*lo que"* (sentences with "it... that" and sentences only with "that")
What is* it that* you want? --- ¿Qué es *lo que* quieres?    
_What is *that* you_'ve got written on your helmet? --- ¿Qué es *lo que *has escrito en tu casco?


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## Chasint

The problem is that "that" has many meanings.

that (demonstrative pronoun) == eso

that (subordinating conjunction) == 'que' or 'lo que'


What *is* *that *you've got written on your helmet?  ---> Que es eso..
What* is it that* you've got written on your helmet? ---> Que es lo que...


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## CuervoGold

So, if "What *is* *that  *you've got written on your helmet?" is ok, why doesn't it make sense to say "What is* that* (which) you want?" ?


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## Chasint

CuervoGold said:


> So, if "What *is* *that  *you've got written on your helmet?" is ok, why doesn't it make sense to say "What is* that* (which) you want?" ?


You cannot say it because "What is that  you want?" means "¿Qué es eso quieres?", which I don't think is possible in Spanish either.


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## SevenDays

CuervoGold said:


> Thank you very much for your answers!* If "What is that you want?" is not acceptable*, as you all have said, what about these examples with other verbs?
> 
> _- What is* that you've got written* on your helmet?_  Full Metal Jacket movie
> -_  "What is* that you express* in your eyes? _(Walt Whitman)
> - _"What is* that you say*?"_ (Radiohead's song)
> 
> 
> I'm still confused because we translate all these sentences to Spanish as "*lo que"* (sentences with "it... that" and sentences only with "that")
> What is* it that* you want? --- ¿Qué es *lo que* quieres?
> _What is *that* you_'ve got written on your helmet? --- ¿Qué es *lo que *has escrito en tu casco?



Those examples don't come from grammar books; they come from actual usage, where people, for various reasons, leave words out, words which are understood from context. Speech is often informal, relaxed, and poetry often breaks grammatical rules for effect. And so while a grammarian might require "that thing" or "which" (_what is that thing that you've written on your helmet?_; _what is that which you express in your eyes?_), the screenwriter and the poet would just as well leave them out. _What is that you say?_ is interesting. Again, a grammarian might add "which" (_what is that which you say?_), but the songwriter would leave it out, probably because he feels that people just don't talk that way. But if Radiohead had said, _what is that*,* you say?_ (with a comma), then that would be ok with the grammarian, because the comma divides the sentence in two parts.  In _"what is that you say?_, the singer is asking a direct question of someone else; in _what is that*,* you say?, _the singer is addressing himself.  Let's go back to _what is that you want?_ and try this approach. The problem here is that this "that" is not a relative pronoun, so it can't go with "you want." "That" here functions as a subject complement, and it goes with "what is:" *[*_what is that_*]* *[*_you want?_*]*. One way to fix it: add a relative pronoun("which") to go with "you want:" *[*_what is that_*] [*_which you want?_*]*. The other solution is to add a different subject complement ("it") so that "that" can be a relative pronoun: *[*_what is it_*]* *[*_that you want?_*]
*Cheers


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## echinocereus

SevenDays, I believe that CuervoGold's examples do come from actual usage.  The sentences are out of context, but I think that any English speaker would read or hear each of the uses of "that" as a word with the intent, feeling, meaning of demonstrative "that," your "eso" in Spanish.  The sentences mean to us English speakers: "What is that (thing which) you've got written on your helmet?" and "What is that (thing which) you express in your eyes?" and "What is that (thing which) you say?"  I don't know whether there is a comfortable way to include "eso" in such a sentence in Spanish, but a literal interpretation of the English sentences would require it.  Would it be acceptable to say "¿Qué es eso que tienes escrito en tu casco?" or "¿Qué es esa cosa que dices con los ojos?"  Un saludo.


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## k-in-sc

It's because "that which" can just be "that" when necessary.


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## SevenDays

echinocereus said:


> SevenDays, I believe that CuervoGold's examples do come from actual usage.  The sentences are out of context, but I think that any English speaker would read or hear each of the uses of "that" as a word with the intent, feeling, meaning of demonstrative "that," your "eso" in Spanish.  The sentences mean to us English speakers: "What is that (thing which) you've got written on your helmet?" and "What is that (thing which) you express in your eyes?" and "What is that (thing which) you say?"  I don't know whether there is a comfortable way to include "eso" in such a sentence in Spanish, but a literal interpretation of the English sentences would require it.  Would it be acceptable to say "¿Qué es eso que tienes escrito en tu casco?" or "¿Qué es esa cosa que dices con los ojos?"  Un saludo.



Hello
Yes, that's what I tried to explain, that CuervoGold's examples come from actual usage (taken from a movie, a song, etc.), and not from a grammar book. A grammar book (granted, a rather strict one) might include what's been left out in those examples ("thing which") but in actual usage, it's idiomatic to leave them out (particularly when the relative pronoun functions as object inside the relative clause). _¿Qué es eso que tienes escrito en tu casco?_ and _¿Qué es esa cosa que dices con los ojos?_ are perfect. Notice that "eso" and "que" represent two distinct pronouns: demonstrative (eso) and relative (que), which means that neither can be omitted. You couldn't say, for example, _¿Qué es eso tienes escrito en tu casco?_ The english "that" is, of course, demonstrative as well as relative (one form, two meanings, depending on usage), and so we can drop one because such dual meaning is still embodied in the "that" left behind. What I mean is that a construction such as _what is that that you've got written in your helmet?_ (with demonstrative "that" followed by relative "that") becomes _what is that you've got written in your helmet?_, where one "that" is dropped. The implication is that in "what is that you've got written in your helmet?", we can't tell if the "that" left in is technically speaking _demonstrative_ or _relative_. In some grammars, however, this "that" is said to be "fused:" it is _both_ demonstrative and relative. 
Cheers


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## Mackinder

If you translate "What is THAT you want?" as "¿Qué es eso que quieres? would that be legit?


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## echinocereus

A note, SevenDays, In the first sentence of my post that you cite in your post #14 I had read your previous post and I was saying that I could well believe that CuervoGold’s examples do come from actual usage.  A comment on the last line of your post #14:  I think that the “that” which is left behind _(when a speaker drops the relative “that)_ is the demonstrative “that” and not the relative “that.”

Ginazec, I asked in my post #12 whether one might say in Spanish “Qué es eso que... “  If you are saying that such a construction can sound natural in Spanish, then I would answer you that your “Qué es eso que quieres?” is a literal translation of “What is that thing which you want?”  Personally, I cannot imagine a situation in which I would choose to say in English:  "What is that you want?"


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## Mackinder

echinocereus said:


> A note, SevenDays, In the first sentence of my post that you cite in your post #14 I had read your previous post and I was saying that I could well believe that CuervoGold’s examples do come from actual usage.  A comment on the last line of your post #14:  I think that the “that” which is left behind _(when a speaker drops the relative “that)_ is the demonstrative “that” and not the relative “that.”
> 
> Ginazec, I asked in my post #12 whether one might say in Spanish “Qué es eso que... “  If you are saying that such a construction can sound natural in Spanish, then I would answer you that your “Qué es eso que quieres?” is a literal translation of “What is that thing which you want?”  Personally, I cannot imagine a situation in which I would choose to say in English:  "What is that you want?"



Thank you very much!


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## SevenDays

Ah, ok, got it; thanks,echinocereus. Now, here is something that's sort of bugging me (and just before I go to bed), and it is the question that CuervoGold posed in post #9. If (a) *what is that you want?* is unidiomatic, why is it that (b) *what is that you've got written on your helmet?* seems ok? (at least, I don't think anyone has objected to it). What I mean is, both have missing information, and we could add the same information (for example, "it") so that in both sentences "that" can function as a relative: *what is it that you want?* ~ *what is it that you've got written on your helmet?* And yet, without "it," (a) is objectionable, but (B) isn't. The first thought that comes to mind is that in "what is that you want?," the verb "want" is strongly transitive; it needs a direct object, but there's nothing to its right, the natural place for a direct object. As a result, "want" looks to "that" as its direct object, but "that" already functions as subject complement in _what is that. _By contrast, in "what is that you've got written on your helmet?, "written" is a _participle_, and while participles can be transitive (because participles are also verbs), they don't carry the full syntactic pull of lexical verbs. In other words, this "written" isn't strong enough _transitively_ to demand a direct object (as "want" does in the other example), which leaves "that" intact, sort of speak, and so "what is that you've got written on your helmet?" becomes idiomatic.  In any event, that's how things look at this late hour.  
Cheers


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## k-in-sc

What is that you want? 
What is it you want?  (refers to something unknown)
What is that [thing] you've got on your helmet?  (refers to something specific)


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## echinocereus

Good morning, SevenDays.  I believe that the same thing that is bothering you is precisely what is bothering me.  In CuervoGold’s post #7 he lists four sentences.  The first one, “What is that you want?”, I find totally unacceptable.  I try and try to think that sentence interpreting the “that” as a demonstrative pronoun and I cannot do it.  I can do it with CuervoGold’s other three sentences.  You know, those of us who love studying other languages, both the exciting activity of oral communication and the “nuts and bolts” part, the structure, what goes before what, what is acceptable and why, are frustrated when we run into inconsistency or what we see as inconsistency, but sometimes we will not be able to find an answer.  The “why?” will elude us.  Still, that makes language study no less a joy.  It’s just always a challenge.

By the way, SevenDays, are you absolutely sure that your native language is not English???


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## k-in-sc

I don't know whether to be more amazed at SevenDays' proficiency or more discouraged that even he very occasionally slips up, which means there is absolutely no hope for the rest of us


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## Chasint

Ginazec said:


> If you translate "What is THAT you want?" as "¿Qué es eso que quieres? would that be legit?


The phrase "What is that you want" is not, has never been and I hope never will be a correct English sentence. It has no meaning and therefore cannot be translated.
If you find occurrences of it then they are errors, either due to mistyping or because the writer doesn't understand English.

My advice is:

(1) Don't use the phrase. No educated native speaker will find it acceptable (or even understandable).
(2) Don't try to use the logic of Spanish to understand how to write correct English. They are different languages.


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## kalamazoo

These are different questions.  If I say "What is that in your hand" or "what is that you have in your hand" I am asking what some specific object is, and the sentence can include an extra verb or not.  But If I ask what is it that you want I am not asking for the name of a specific object; rather I am asking the question what do you want.


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## CuervoGold

Thank you all! You're the best! So, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I have come to this conclusion about the structure of this sentences:

- "What is it that you want?"   Here we have *"that" working as a relative*, and "that you want" works as a *relative clause which is related to "what*", not to "it". Am I right?

- "What is that (which) you have in your hand ?  Here we have *"that"* *working as a demonstrative pronoun* and referring to something known by the speaker or something specific; we also have "which" working as an optional relative and, finally, *"(which) you have in your hand"* works as a *relative clause that gives us additional information about "that"*, not "what". Is it ok?

And my last question: what would be the answer of the second question, "what is that you have in your hand"? "That I have in my hand is...". It doesn't sound right.


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## kalamazoo

It's just like the answer to "What is that"?  YOu can say "it's a feather I picked up" or "it's the key to my back door."


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## echinocereus

Hi, CuervoGold, I’ll try to answer your questions.  

1) “What is it that you want?” 
Yes, “that” functions here as a relative pronoun, direct object of “want.”
Yes, “that you want” is a relative or adjective clause.
No, the antecedent of “that,” the word to which it refers, is not “what.”  “That” refers to “it.”  “It” is the antecedent of “that.”
“What” in this sentence is an interrogative pronoun and subject of “is.”

2) “What is THAT you have in your hand?”  Yes, “that,” when the speaker refers with some emphasis to something specific in the other person’s hand and the speaker may even  point to that item, does have the intent of a demonstrative pronoun.  “¿Qué es eso que tienes en la mano?” Note that in Spanish you would not drop the “que,” while English speakers have the option of dropping the “which.”

“What is that which you have in your hand?” There is no special emphasis expressed in this sentence.  “Which” is a relative pronoun, direct object of “have” and “that” is its antecedent.  “¿Qué es lo que tienes en la mano?”  No special emphasis in the Spanish sentence either. 

3) “What is THAT you have in your hand?”  Possible answers:  “I have a --- in my hand.”  or “It’s a ---.”  or even  “What I have in my hand is a ---.”  _(In the last sentence “what” is not interrogative; it’s a “compound relative pronoun” and stands for “that which”.)_

I hope this helps, CuervoGold.

Un saludo.


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## SevenDays

Thank you for the earlier compliments, _echinocereus_ and _k_. _Heaven_ (or perhaps the _Big Bang_) knows that I make my share of mistakes, and that English is *so *my second language. By the time I got to "l" in "compl," I began to wonder, "wait; do I go with "e" (_complement_) or "i" (_compliment_); and I won't admit that initially I'd gone with "e." Thank _God/Big Bang_ I have my dictionary nearby. And often, while searching for a specific word, I think, "_how do we say that in English_?, and when that fails, I turn to "_how do we say that in Spanish_;" and, when that fails too, well, there isn't anywhere else to go. Now, getting back on track, what's idiomatic (_what is that you've got written on your helmet?_) and what isn't (_what is that you want?_) isn't always explained by grammatical logic; which is of course frustrating if you are looking for an explanation. (And I agree with echinocereus' analysis.)
Cheers


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## Chasint

echinocereus said:


> Hi, CuervoGold, I’ll try to answer your questions.
> 
> 1) “What is it that you want?”
> Yes, “that” functions here as a relative pronoun, direct object of “want.”
> Yes, “that you want” is a relative or adjective clause.
> No, the antecedent of “that,” the word to which it refers, is not “what.”  “That” refers to “it.”  “It” is the antecedent of “that.”
> “What” in this sentence is an interrogative pronoun and subject of “is.”
> 
> 2) “What is THAT you have in your hand?”  Yes, “that,” when the speaker refers with some emphasis to something specific in the other person’s hand and the speaker may even  point to that item, does have the intent of a demonstrative pronoun.  “¿Qué es eso que tienes en la mano?” Note that in Spanish you would not drop the “que,” while English speakers have the option of dropping the “which.”
> 
> “What is that which you have in your hand?” There is no special emphasis expressed in this sentence.  “Which” is a relative pronoun, direct object of “have” and “that” is its antecedent.  “¿Qué es lo que tienes en la mano?”  No special emphasis in the Spanish sentence either.
> 
> 3) “What is THAT you have in your hand?”  Possible answers:  “I have a --- in my hand.”  or “It’s a ---.”  or even  “What I have in my hand is a ---.”  _(In the last sentence “what” is not interrogative; it’s a “compound relative pronoun” and stands for “that which”.)_
> 
> I hope this helps, CuervoGold.
> 
> Un saludo.


 All looking good to me except for one thing. I have never heard anyone say "What is that which you have in your hand?” It just isn't English - in fact it reminds me of my old French teacher trying to explain "Qu'est-ce que c'est que ça".

Can I check, are you saying this is normal, correct English?

______________________________________________________________
EDIT
I can just about imagine an English speaker saying "What's that that you have in your hand?" but never 'that which'.


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## Mackinder

Biffo said:


> The phrase "What is that you want" is not, has never been and I hope never will be a correct English sentence. It has no meaning and therefore cannot be translated.
> If you find occurrences of it then they are errors, either due to mistyping or because the writer doesn't understand English.
> 
> My advice is:
> 
> (1) Don't use the phrase. No educated native speaker will find it acceptable (or even understandable).
> (2) Don't try to use the logic of Spanish to understand how to write correct English. They are different languages.



Thank you  That's what I what thinking


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## echinocereus

Hi, Biffo, I was trying to answer CuervoGold's questions in his post #24 in as careful and as organized a fashion as I could.  By the time I got to the end, my post was pretty long and I didn't think to add the thought that CG's sentence "What is that which you have in your hand?" is not a likely or natural-sounding sentence in English although it is grammatically correct.  Thanks for reminding me that I should have pointed that out.


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## Chasint

echinocereus said:


> Hi, Biffo, I was trying to answer CuervoGold's questions in his post #24 in as careful and as organized a fashion as I could.  By the time I got to the end, my post was pretty long and I didn't think to add the thought that CG's sentence "What is that which you have in your hand?" is not a likely or natural-sounding sentence in English although it is grammatically correct.  Thanks for reminding me that I should have pointed that out.


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## juan2937

echinocereus said:


> SevenDays, I believe that CuervoGold's examples do come from actual usage.  The sentences are out of context, but I think that any English speaker would read or hear each of the uses of "that" as a word with the intent, feeling, meaning of demonstrative "that," your "eso" in Spanish.  The sentences mean to us English speakers: "What is that (thing which) you've got written on your helmet?" and "What is that (thing which) you express in your eyes?" and "What is that (thing which) you say?"  I don't know whether there is a comfortable way to include "eso" in such a sentence in Spanish, but a literal interpretation of the English sentences would require it.  Would it be acceptable to say "¿Qué es eso que tienes escrito en tu casco?" or "¿Qué es esa cosa que dices con los ojos?"  Un saludo.



You are correct. You can say:  *¿qué es eso ( cosa) que tienes escrito en el casco?*
Qué es lo que dices? Qué dices?
Qué cosa dices con los ojos?


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## Forero

CuervoGold said:


> Hola a todos,
> 
> Estoy un poco confundida con la función del pronombre "that" en _"What is* that* you want?"_ That, is it a relative pronoun or "the thing that"?
> 
> Pensaba que la forma correcta de traducir al inglés "¿Qué es lo que quieres?" era What is* it that *you want? O bien What is what you want?
> 
> ¿El "that" puede utilizarse como sinónimo de "aquello que", con el sentido de "what"?
> 
> Creo que está bien dicho decir "It's money that I want" or "Money is what I want"
> *
> Is it right to say "Money is that I want"?*


"What is it (that) you want?" (¿Qué es que quieres?), "What is that (that) you want?" (¿Qué es eso que quieres?), and "What is what you want?" (¿Qué/Cómo es lo que quieres?) are different questions. I find all three grammatical enough, assuming appropriate context, but they do not mean at all the same thing. By far the most common of these is the first.

"Money is that I want" is not a valid way to say "Money is what I want", but it might have meaning in some context.


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## juan2937

Forero said:


> "What is it (that) you want?" (¿Qué es que quieres?), "What is that (that) you want?" (¿Qué es eso que quieres?), and "What is what you want?" (¿Qué/Cómo es lo que quieres?) are different questions. I find all three grammatical enough, assuming appropriate context, but they do not mean at all the same thing. By far the most common of these is the first.
> "Money is that I want" is not a valid way to say "Money is what I want", but it might have meaning in some context.



May I correct the sentence ¿*Qué es lo que quieres?* en español, It could be a print error.


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## Forero

juan2937 said:


> May I correct the sentence ¿*Qué es lo que quieres?* en español, It could be a print error.


Gracias. Parece que la distinción que existe en inglés se pierde en español.

¿Es posible así:

_¿Qué cosa es que quieres?_

o debe de ser "¿Qué cosa es la que quieres?"?


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## CuervoGold

echinocereus said:


> Hi, CuervoGold, I’ll try to answer your questions.
> 
> 1) “What is it that you want?
> No, the antecedent of “that,” the word to which it refers, is not “what.”  “That” refers to “it.”  “It” is the antecedent of “that.”
> “What” in this sentence is an interrogative pronoun and subject of “is.”



Thank you very much, Echinocereus (and the rest of you, of course )

"It's money that I want" From my point of view, I think that the antecedent of "that I want" is "*money*" (the subject complement) and "it" is the subject in this case. That's why I thought that "what" was also the antecedent in the question sentence and also a subject complement, as well as "it" the subject.

I think I have a HUGE problem to understand the structure of "what questions" because they change their structure when people speak using indirect questions. 
For example,  and according to grammarians: "_What (subject) is your name (subject complement)_?"

But if we put it in indirect style: _"I don't know what (subject complement) your name (subject) is_"  

So, why do grammarians say that "what" is the subject in the direct question, if it's not in the indirect one?

And what about other verb tenses with "be", like "_What (subject complement) will your answer (inverted subject) be_?  Why doesn't it follow the grammarians vision of "what" subject? Or is it *"What will be your answer?* (this is not ok, isn't it)


  I hate this "what" sentences!!!! I don't understand them!


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## Forero

echinocereus said:


> 1) “What is it that you want?”
> Yes, “that” functions here as a relative pronoun, direct object of “want.”
> Yes, “that you want” is a relative or adjective clause.
> No, the antecedent of “that,” the word to which it refers, is not “what.” “That” refers to “it.” “It” is the antecedent of “that.”
> “What” in this sentence is an interrogative pronoun and subject of “is.”


Yes, the _that_ clause is a relative clause belonging to "it", not to "what", but _what_ is not the subject of _is_. The subject of _is_ is _it_, together with _that you want_.





CuervoGold said:


> I think I have a HUGE problem to understand the structure of "what questions" because they change their structure when people speak using indirect questions.
> For example,  and according to grammarians: "_What (subject) is your name (subject complement)_?"
> 
> But if we put it in indirect style: _"I don't know what (subject complement) your name (subject) is_"
> 
> So, why do grammarians say that "what" is the subject in the direct question, if it's not in the indirect one?
> 
> And what about other verb tenses with "be", like "_What (subject complement) will your answer (inverted subject) be_?  Why doesn't it follow the grammarians vision of "what" subject? Or is it *"What will be your answer?* (this is not ok, isn't it)
> 
> 
> I hate this "what" sentences!!!! I don't understand them!


Don't feel bad about _what_ sentences. We natives use them but tend to get tangled up trying to explain them.

You have correctly analyzed "I don't know what your name is" and "What will your answer be?". Your other question is also correct: "What (subject) will be your answer (subject complement)?".

The issue with the direct question "What is your name?" is that it has two possible interpretations. Either _what_ or _your name_ might be the subject.

The usual interpretation is that _your name_ is the subject and _what_ the complement, and the correct form of the indirect sentence is "I don't know what your name is." The answer then would be something like "(My name is) John."

Alternatively, we could interpret the direct question with _what_ as the subject, which cannot invert with the verb since, as an interrogative, it has to come first. Then _your name_ would be the complement, the correct form of the indirect question would be "I don't know what is your name", and the answer would be something like "John (is my name)."





> "It's money that I want" From my point of view, I think that the antecedent of "that I want" is "*money*" (the subject complement) and "it" is the subject in this case. That's why I thought that "what" was also the antecedent in the question sentence and also a subject complement, as well as "it" the subject.


"It's money that I want" also has two possible interpretations, again with one being more usual than the other.

One interpretation needs context to give _it_ a meaning outside of the sentence itself. For example, if I see something sticking out of a purse but I don't know what that something is, I might ask you, and you might say "It's money that I want." Here _it_ would be referring to the something in question. _It_ would be the whole subject, and the complement would be "money that I want."

But the usual interpretation takes "It's money that I want" as a cleft sentence, a special type of sentence that includes a question preceded by its answer. The subject of a cleft sentence is always "it", referring to what is in question, the main verb is always third person singular, the answer intervenes after the verb, and the rest of the subject follows as a relative clause beginning with the relative pronoun _that_, which is often omitted. The _it_ and the (optional) relative clause together act as a sort of rhetorical interrogative subject.

It might help to look at cleft sentences based on questions with interrogative adverbs rather than interrogative pronouns. For example "It is in Paris that we met" and "It is in giving that we receive." Compare:

A1. _Where did we meet? In Paris._
A2. _Where we met is in Paris._
A3. _It is in Paris_ (_that_)_ we met._
A4. _Where is it_ (_that_)_ we met? In Paris._

B1. _How do we receive? In giving._
B2. _The way_ (or _how_)_ we receive is in giving._
B3. _It is in giving_ (_that_)_ we receive._
B4. _How is it_ (_that_)_ we receive? In giving._

C1. _What do you want? Money._
C2. _What I want is money._
C3. _It is money_ (_that_)_ I want._
C4. _What is it_ (_that_)_ you want? Money._

As can be seen in these examples, _it_ and _that_ together play the role of "where?" in A3, "how?" in B3, and "what?" in C3. Part of the subject is _it_, and the rest of the subject is the relative clause. The complement is "in Paris" in A2 and A3, "in giving" in B2 and B3, "money" in C2 and C3.

It does not do to replace _it that_ with an interrogative:

A5. _Where is where we met?_
B5. _How is how we receive?_
C5. _What is what you want?_

(Actually A5 and C5 can perhaps have meaning, but not the intended meaning. For example, A5 might mean "Where is Paris?" and C5 could conceivably mean "What is money?".)

Spanish word order allows the subject to be last, so the interrogative clause becomes a relative clause as postposed subject, and there is no _it_:

_Es en París en donde nos encontramos._
_Es por medio de la donación como recibimos._
_Es el dinero lo que yo quiero._

(Como siempre, corríjanme el español.)


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## juan2937

Forero said:


> Gracias. Parece que la distinción que existe en inglés se pierde en español.
> 
> ¿Es posible así:
> _¿Qué cosa es que quieres?_
> o debe de ser "¿Qué cosa es la que quieres?"?



Qué es lo que quieres= It is a neutre pronoun and refers to 'cosa' 
Qué cosa es la que quieres  (redundant) or better* ¿qué cosa quieres tú?*


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## CuervoGold

Again, thank you all!!


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## chajadan

I find the original sentence acceptable in speech, in that I would feel no need to correct it. Sure, it's not exactly a structure you aim for, or that you'd use in a school paper, but if a kid went up to a parent and said, "I know I've asked you for a lot lately, but I need one more thing that's really important.", I could see the parent saying "What is ~that~, you want." Consider the "you want" an afterthought, so it's like saying "What is that, that you want." and omitting the second that. My mom dislikes two that's in a row. I bring this up because people discard structures as in no way a part of their own language, but people say ungrammatical things all the time that we don't even bother to register is such institutional terms, we fully understand and just allow it without comment. The original sentence, to me, seems like an utterance I would ~expect~ to run into once in awhile, albeit rarely. I live in California, for what it's worth. If I were going to translate one use of the original into Spanish, I might say "¿Que es, que quieres?"

--charlie


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## Chasint

chajadan said:


> I find the original sentence acceptable in speech, in that I would feel no need to correct it. Sure, it's not exactly a structure you aim for, or that you'd use in a school paper, but if a kid went up to a parent and said, "I know I've asked you for a lot lately, but I need one more thing that's really important.", I could see the parent saying "What is ~that~, you want." Consider the "you want" an afterthought, so it's like saying "What is that, that you want." and omitting the second that. My mom dislikes two that's in a row. I bring this up because people discard structures as in no way a part of their own language, but people say ungrammatical things all the time that we don't even bother to register is such institutional terms, we fully understand and just allow it without comment. The original sentence, to me, seems like an utterance I would ~expect~ to run into once in awhile, albeit rarely. I live in California, for what it's worth. If I were going to translate one use of the original into Spanish, I might say "¿Que es, que quieres?"
> 
> --charlie


I simply can't see it myself - maybe it's just your Mom . I think a more likely question in that context would be "What is it that you want.


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## kalamazoo

I live in California too, and if someone said that, I would think it was weird and they were misspeaking or confused somehow.  Or a non-native speaker.


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## Chasint

kalamazoo said:


> I live in California too, and if someone said that, I would think it was weird and they were misspeaking or confused somehow.  Or a non-native speaker.


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## chajadan

Biffo and kalamazoo, just answer me one question: do you ever hear people sometimes say ungrammatical things and barely notice that it's occurred? If your answer isn't literally yes, then you don't seem human to me, but if you say no, that's fairly normal. Language isn't math, never was, and it evolves because we don't just stick to constant rules. The primary point of language is to be understood, so if someone said some intonational variant of "What is that you want?" I would highly suspect you'd be able to incorporate the utterance with nair a hiccup. But, seeing as we accept such things regularly without mentally noting them as true aberrations, in that they still function as communicative language, we also are less likely to state later that we accept technically malformed language, is all I'm saying.

--charlie (who studied linguistics at UC Berkeley and is, if you can't tell, a descriptavist)


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## kalamazoo

There are different kinds of ungrammatical things that people say. Non-native speakers might say ungrammatical things that a native speaker would never say .  Native speakers may use non-standard grammar in speech but only certain kinds of non-standard grammar.  If I hear someone say "My friend buy house" I would be surprised.  As to "what is that you want' to mean 'what do you want' or 'what is it that you want', I would also be surprised. It would seem peculiar to me and not the type of thing I would expect a native speaker to say.  Whereas even something like "Would you bring the chair that it's leg is broken" wouldn't seem astonishing.


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## chajadan

Well I for one can accept it easily. It's just like saying "What is that?" and then appending an after though, like saying "What is that, that you want", but murmurring out the second that, and I think most people would accept it if it was thrown in naturally enough.


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## Chasint

chajadan said:


> Well I for one can accept it easily. It's just like saying "What is that?" and then appending an after though, like saying "What is that, that you want", but murmurring out the second that, and I think most people would accept it if it was thrown in naturally enough.


Well you may accept it but have you honestly ever heard anyone say it?  I certainly haven't. Can you even give a plausible context for it? 

Example
A parent and child in a supermarket

Child: What is that?
Parent: That is a cauliflower.
Child: What is that?
Parent: It's a banana.
etc.

The above is a plausible conversation but I can't see how the child could add "you want" to any of those questions.


Please can you give a conversation where your phrase would work? Thank you.


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## chajadan

I already did, in my first post, post #40. Is it really such a big stretch to imagine that native English speakers could accept a demonstrative pronoun in any place "it" would be accepted?


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## Forero

I don't think the sentence is well used, but I am sure I have heard it somewhere. The only meaning I see for it is "What is that (thing that) you want?", where "that" is maybe a little ambiguous:

A. _I want something I just can't have._
B. _What is that?_
A. _What?_
B. _What you can't have. What is that you want?_

Yes, I would probably still say _it_ here rather than _that_, but _that_ is certainly grammatical and possible.





chajadan said:


> I already did, in my first post, post #40. Is it really such a big stretch to imagine that native English speakers could accept a demonstrative pronoun in any place "it" would be accepted?


_It is hard to imagine what you might want but can't have._
_That is hard to imagine what you might want but can't have._


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## chajadan

> _It is hard to imagine what you might want but can't have.
> That is hard to imagine what you might want but can't have.
> _



First, I asked if it with such a stretch without an example on purpose, to highlight the similar roles it and that play. The difference between "it's fun" and "that's fun" can become negligible.

Second, the form you red X'd seems like it might get said to me, just imagine an original though of "That is hard to imagine", said and followed with an explanatory afterthought.

I only brought up the whole idea of what native speakers might hear and accept because foreign learner's are often taught by natives that such and such is unacceptable, just for them to run into it anyway. Likely how this thread started anyway.

--charlie


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## chajadan

My mom is switching out the old DVR (TiVo) with a new one, and she just said "If I'm not done with everything /slight pause/ watching, I'll have to...". This is exactly like what I mean. We think in utterance chunks, common phrases. Her brain is thinking "If I'm not done with everything, (I'll have to)", but then she feels the need to be specific (though I knew well from context anyway), and in that split second choice she doesn't even say "with everything being watched", because the closest common phrase she merged with is "If I'm not done with watching everything". This is all too common. I mean, look how quickly I pointed out a life example and I live with only one other person.


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## Chasint

chajadan said:


> I already did, in my first post, post #40. Is it really such a big stretch to imagine that native English speakers could accept a demonstrative pronoun in any place "it" would be accepted?


I'm sorry but for me that example didn't work. And yes, a native English speaker certainly could accept such a phrase if it was 100% clear from the context what was meant. However there are levels of acceptability, especially on a forum that is designed to help people learn a language.


chajadan said:


> My mom is switching out the old DVR (TiVo) with a new one, and she just said "If I'm not done with everything /slight pause/ watching, I'll have to...". This is exactly like what I mean. We think in utterance chunks, common phrases. Her brain is thinking "If I'm not done with everything, (I'll have to)", but then she feels the need to be specific (though I knew well from context anyway), and in that split second choice she doesn't even say "with everything being watched", because the closest common phrase she merged with is "If I'm not done with watching everything". This is all too common. I mean, look how quickly I pointed out a life example and I live with only one other person.


I agree that almost anything can be said in real life, for example: "Lovely weather toda...Look out a wasp!". For me. that is acceptable (and normal) English. However, if I wanted to, I could also say "Dog him hungry, him eat rabbit" and people around me would understand but that doesn't make it standard English that's considered acceptable on a language forum.

I think the point is that every thread on this forum could be filled up with exceptions, thousands of them, but it would do a disservice to the people who use the forums as a resource for language learning.

You're a descriptivist - I'm a pragmatist! 

_____________________________________________
EDIT
I know this may seem like an unfair dig but you spelled 'descriptivist' wrongly. #44
Are you claiming that this is 'acceptable' English? It is certainly understandable English but surely it's necessary to point such things out on a language forum.


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## kalamazoo

We can figure out various scenarios .with appropriate inflections, pauses hesitations interruptions and so on in which a native speaker MIGHT produce some odd highly non-standard utterance.  But that's not relevant to the purpose of the non-native speakers.  They would like to know if something would be considered incorrect and ungrammatical and if they should avoid saying it. I would classify 'what is that you want' as something a non-native speaker should avoid.  It's not colloquial, it's not grammatical and it's not commonly used.


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## echinocereus

I think, Kalamazoo, that you said it very well and I believe that many foreros agree with you.


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## Forero

kalamazoo said:


> We can figure out various scenarios .with appropriate inflections, pauses hesitations interruptions and so on in which a native speaker MIGHT produce some odd highly non-standard utterance.  But that's not relevant to the purpose of the non-native speakers.  They would like to know if something would be considered incorrect and ungrammatical and if they should avoid saying it. I would classify 'what is that you want' as something a non-native speaker should avoid.  It's not colloquial, it's not grammatical and it's not commonly used.


It is no substitute for the cleft structure, which only works with _it_, but "What is that you want?" looks and sounds perfectly grammatical and idiomatic to me.

And in fact I agree with the idea that adding a comma to the sentence I marked with an  can make it grammatical and idiomatic too, with the _what_ clause as an appositive to _that_.

What, in terms of syntax, are people finding ungrammatical about "What is that you want?", with _that_ as a demonstrative pronoun referring to something previously mentioned and _you want_ as a restrictive relative clause?


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## k-in-sc

Sorry, it's just too much of a stretch. Not sure why you keep insisting.


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## Forero

I insist because if I were learning English, native speakers calling "What is that you want?" ungrammatical would confuse me. I don't know what "¿Qué es eso que quieres?" sounds like to a native Spanish speaker, but I am assuming until someone says otherwise that it is perfectly grammatical, like "What is that you want?". Are Spanish and English grammar different here?

The fact is, "What is it you want?" is a proper English sentence, but it does not translate easily because (1) Spanish word order is different, and (2) Spanish has no equivalent for this _it_, and (3) the Spanish verb agrees with the complement, as if the complement were the subject:

_It's me they want._ = _Soy yo el que ellos quieren._ [English: verb _is_ agrees with _it_, so the English sentence has no _am_, and no _the_, _what_, or _who_; Spanish: no _it_, so the verb _soy_ agrees with _yo_.]

The Spanish sentence seems to be saying "I am the one they want" but with the subject and verb inverted. This "I am ..." sentence is quite different from the original "It's ..." sentence. The meaning is very similar, but the grammar is turned around, and "the one" and "it" are not quite interchangeable (or in other words, _lo_ does not really mean "it").

Because this _it_ does not translate to Spanish, we get the confusing situation that I think prompted this thread:

_Lo que quiero es el dinero._ = _What I want is money._ [_Lo que_ = _what_.]
_Es el dinero lo que yo quiero._ = _It is money_ (_that_)_ I want._ [Spanish: no _it_; English: no _what_.]
_¿Qué es lo que quieres?_ = _What is what you want?_ [_Lo que_ not = _what_.]
_¿Qué es lo que quieres?_ = _What is it you want?_ [Spanish: no _it_; English: no _what_, optional _that_ omitted.]

And _that_ cannot substitute for this _it_. The optional _that_ means "que", but if we leave out _it_ and keep _that_ it becomes a demonstrative (= "eso"/"aquello") because _is_ needs both a subject and a complement, and _what_ cannot be both at once.


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## kalamazoo

This is getting like "Who's on first." My advice to non-native speakers is that if you want to know what someone wants, say "what do you want" or "what is it that you want' but don't say "What is that you want."  Period.


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## Forero

kalamazoo said:


> This is getting like "Who's on first." My advice to non-native speakers is that if you want to know what someone wants, say "what do you want" or "what is it that you want' but don't say "What is that you want."  Period.


My advice will always include the fact that if you want to know what that (thing) is that someone wants, you can very well ask "What is that (thing that) you want?", and I for one will not bat an eye, but don't think the _it_ in "What is it that you want?" is optional. Leaving it out requires reanalysis of the whole written sentence. The two different _that_s sound different in speech. _That_ = "eso" is always stressed, and pronounced with a full vowel, the flat short _a_ sound; _that_ = "que" is unstressed and normally pronounced with a schwa.


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## Chasint

Forero said:


> My advice will always include the fact that if you want to know what that (thing) is that someone wants, you can very well ask "What is that (thing that) you want?", and I for one will not bat an eye, but don't think the _it_ in "What is it that you want?" is optional. Leaving it out requires reanalysis of the whole written sentence. The two different _that_s sound different in speech. _That_ = "eso" is always stressed, and pronounced with a full vowel, the flat short _a_ sound; _that_ = "que" is unstressed and normally pronounced with a schwa.


I agree with kalamazoo. I think you are insisting on the correctness of a sentence that really is not useful.


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## echinocereus

Bingo! Biffo.


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## k-in-sc

Yep, that sums it up nicely.


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