# EN, AN, UN, IN - sons, sounds



## Leandro

Hello everybody,

I'm having some issues with those sounds..

The sound of "en" and "an" are the same right? (execpt for "bien", "tiens" ...)

* or has it all the same sound? "bien", "gen", "tiens", "tant", "lent" ....

But what about the "in" and "un" sounds?

Is the "un" sound like the "en" and "an"?

like in "un enfant"  , all of them has the exact prounouce?

Merci beaucoup!!!


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## denis-a-paris

en = an
in = un

[p]ain = [ch]ien = in = un


I hope this is helpful. It's very difficult at first.


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## Leandro

Thanks a lot Denis


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## zaby

To listen to these sounds, you can try 
http://www.research.att.com/projects/tts/demo.php


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## denis-a-paris

It's hard to explain over a web forum! I don't happen to know any audio references on the web but I'm sure you could dig something up.


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## badgrammar

Un Bon Vin Blanc.  

There you have the four French nasal vowels, all nice and tidy in a sentence you can practice all day long.

Each of them has a different sound.  Un "banc" does not sound like "un bon".  Un "vin" does not rhyme with "un".

So how to do it? 

Un : It's more like the basic grunt.  Say "Under", then just retain the "un" and don't let the sound come from your nose, block the air that would leave by your mouth.

On:  Pretend you have an egg in your mouth, round your lips.  Grunt.  Maybe try the "o" in "only", but force the air to leave through your nose, not your mouth.

Sorry, gotta' run, more later if it's helpful!


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## denis-a-paris

badgrammar said:
			
		

> ... "vin" does not rhyme with "un".



It doesn't ?!


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## Leandro

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Un "vin" does not rhyme with "un".



It doesnt? really? :-o


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## Outsider

Leandro said:
			
		

> Hello everybody,
> 
> I'm having some issues with those sounds..
> 
> The sound of "en" and "an" are the same right? (execpt for "bien", "tiens" ...)





			
				Leandro said:
			
		

> But what about the "in" and "un" sounds?


Traditionally, "in" and "un" were pronounced differently. The former was a nasalized open-mid front unrounded vowel, and the latter a nasalized open-mid front _rounded_ vowel (see French phonology). 
However, from what I understand, in many dialects the distinction between these two has disappeared. Both are pronounced as a nasalized open-mid front unrounded vowel.



			
				Leandro said:
			
		

> Is the "un" sound like the "en" and "an"?


Definitely not.


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## Aupick

As Outsider says, I gather that the UN sound is in the process of dropping out, being replaced by IN, especially in Paris and among young people.

EN is most often pronounced like AN, but not always. Apart from _bien_ and _tiens_ already mentioned, there are other words ending in -en like _examen_, as well as _B*en*jamin_ and compounds based on the Latin "pent" (= five): _p*en*tagone, p*en*tathlon, p*en*tamètre_, etc.

I'm sure there are more but I've never come across a list and these are just the ones I can think of.


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## badgrammar

Leandro said:
			
		

> It doesnt? really? :-o



That was the question: Do these vowel sounds all sound alike?


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## denis-a-paris

Aupick said:
			
		

> As Outsider says, I gather that the UN sound is in the process of dropping out, being replaced by IN, especially in Paris and among young people.



Pour info:

I'm in my second year of learning French in Paris and they are (at least to foreigners) teaching that IN and UN are pronounced exactly the same and that there are 3 nasal sounds: (of course there are some exceptions).

IN = UN

EN = AN

ON


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## Mutichou

Actually, UN and IN should be two different sounds, but I am unable to pronounce UN differently, like many people (especially around Paris).


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## badgrammar

So wait, then these words would rhyme?: 

Verdun/Engin
Cajun/Matin
Un/Barratin

I am just wondering what would be some examples of words like this where -un and -in sound the same.  I can't think of any, and I know for the life of me there are officially 4 basic nasal vowels...

But, the times are always changing, so


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## DearPrudence

badgrammar said:
			
		

> So wait, then these words would rhyme?:
> 
> Verdun/Engin
> Cajun/Matin
> Un/Barratin


 
I hope I understood your question but all those words rhyme.
For me, 'un' and 'in' are pronounced the same way and I've never been told they should be pronounced slightly differently (while our teacher did tell us that 'les' and 'lait' should be pronounced differently theoratically but that it wasn't the case actually (but that's another story)).

I hope it helps

p.s. to Aupick: well done for talking about Benjamin, I've always found that the pronounciation of this word was strange but now it makes sense.


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## badgrammar

Wow, I'm really surprised.  I mean, in certain regional accents I would expect to hear this, but not in standard French. Autant pour moi 

I'm going to have to do a little experimenting with my French friends...  

So then, when you read the sentence "Un bon vin blanc" you see only 3 different sounding vowels? Un and blanc rhyme?

And would you say it is incorrect to pronounce them differently?


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## DearPrudence

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Un and blanc rhyme?


 
Eh non  
"un" and "vin" rhyme.
And unfortunately, if you don't pronounce them well, people can think it's another word (or don't understand you, or frown and make you repeat...).
ex: if you say "vin" with the nasal vowel "en" or "an", it becomes: "vent" (wind). 
If you say "cent" ou "sang" (they're pronounced the same way) with "un", "ein" or "ain", it becomes: "saint" or worse "sein" (breast).
So yes, it could lead to some confusion and blushing maybe  
Bon courage


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## badgrammar

A little googling for "français voyelles nasales" turned up many interesting articles.  In all that I looked at, 4 nasal vowels are defined.  

However, I also came accross an interesting article on the "mutation des voyelles" in French - in other words, on the changing pronunciation of French vowel sounds.  So looks like everybody's right.

But it might be good, in an academic context, to learn to use and recognize all four of these sounds, even if 2 of them blend together later.

Edit: Ooops - yes prudence, that was a typing mistake on my part, I meant to say "un" and "vin", which absolutely do not rhyme in my head.  For me they remain two seperate vowel sounds...


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## Hakro

When I was in school in the fifties I was taught that _in_ and _un_ are pronounced differently.

Later when I was in France, in Paris especially, in found that the French pronounced them exactly the same way.


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## Outsider

When I learned it in the eighties, our textbooks had different phonetic symbols for "(a)in" and "un", but our teachers pronounced both the same way.


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## zaby

Hakro said:
			
		

> When I was in school in the fifties I was taught that _in_ and _un_ are pronounced differently.
> 
> Later when I was in France, in Paris especially, in found that the French pronounced them exactly the same way.


 
When I was in school (near Paris), I remember my teacher told us that 'un' and 'in' should be pronounced differently and that they were in the south of France but she teached us to pronouce them the same way  
I still remember this because as a little girl, I found very weird that she didn't teach us the correct pronounciation


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## Gil

Site intéressant sur les voyelles nasales ici
On peut y entendre les différences.


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## badgrammar

Gil said:
			
		

> Site intéressant sur les voyelles nasales ici
> On peut y entendre les différences.



Et voilà, that's it...

I learned that in school in the eighties, and my teacher made a big deal about proper pronunciation.  Also later in French phonetics in college.  Un vin brun, with just one vowel sound? What is the world coming to?


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## zaby

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Et voilà, that's it...
> 
> I learned that in school in the eighties, and my teacher made a big deal about proper pronunciation. Also later in French phonetics in college. Un vin brun, with just one vowel sound? What is the world coming to?


 
What about un brin brun ?
Thinking about it I feel I do pronouce them slightly differently


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## Gil

> What is the world coming to?


Good title for a book!  You should reserve the copyright.


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## DearPrudence

Actually, thinking about it, my teacher did mention that 'brun' and 'brin' was not pronounced the same way but I must be deaf but I can't hear the difference on the site given by Gil (that's why I'm not good at languages, I can't hear anything).
It's written that the distinction's not made by people from Paris and young people but I'm not from Paris (but I am young, so that could be why...)


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## Gwynanne

I pronounce all four sounds differently, and have never noticed the in-un similarities.

for "un" I pronounce it like the "uh" "uh-huh"  

for "in" it's not quite the same, but has more a sound similar to the "e" in "when" (but of course nasalized and shorter).

GA


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## DearPrudence

Otherwise in the TFLi, they just give 3 nasal consonants and if you type B-R-IN you will have both 'brin' and 'brun'.
Mais je sais bien qu'il ne faut pas prendre ça comme parole d'évangile (not sure it's really French).


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## badgrammar

Good morning all!

In the interest of proper, unbiased, scientific research , I wrote down two sentences and asked a panel of 4 bona-fide native French speakers to read them.  Results were interesting:

Methodology: 
I presented subjects with a Post-It, on which was written "Un bon brin brun", and on the other side, "Un bon vin blanc".  Subjects were asked to read the sentences aloud, and then asked if the sounds "brun" and "brin" and "un" and "vin" were the same.  

Subjects:
Male, 9 years old, from Ile de France
Female, 6 years old, from Ile de France
Male, 39 years old, from Clermont Ferrand
Male, 42 years old, from Nantes.

Results:
The 9 year-old male first studied the paper quizzically, then said "un bon brin brune"*.  Try again.  "Un bon brin-brin."  Then, third try, "Un bon brin brun".  

When asked if there was a difference, he answered yes, and voiced two distinct sounds: "in" and "un".  The same results were produced for the second sentence:  He declared hearing and pronouncing different sounds in the words "un" and "vin"...  and stated "Ca rhyme pas".
*I theorize that the "un bon brin brune" came from the fact that brin brun immediately seemed difficult to pronounce, so the subject changed it to a more easily pronounced, if incorrect, sentence.

The 6 year old female subject was unable to read the sentence, but  parroting her older sibling, she also confirmed that there was a difference and was able to produce the two distinct sounds in both word pairs.

The older male subjects (experimental variant: l'apéro), were simultaneously presented with the same sentences, and the results were astoundingly similar.

Upon first reading, the difference was subtle for un and vin, but marked for brin brun.  But both subjects responded that yes, there is a different sound for the vowels in the word pairs, and they produced the different vowel sounds independently and with variations, clearly distinguishing between the two. * **

*The subjects noted that conversationally, it is possible to pronounce "un" and "vin" in exactly the same manner, without any negative repercussions.  

**However, they noted that for "brin" and "brun" it's a different case, because it creates confusion: "Va me chercher un brun d'herbe" and "J'aime bien ton gilet brin" just doesn't work.   

Results:
All subjects recognized two distinct nasal vowels when presented with "un" and "in" in the following words :un, vin, brin, brun. 

Conclusion:  
Although the difference is not always heard conversationally (and may not be produced by all native speakers), the two nasal vowels -un and -in are distinct and distinguishable.  

The loss of one of these two sounds can create confusion, and deprive the French language of some of its precision (un brin brin :d, really....!).

Language is always in evolution, but I admit being quite shocked that teachers of the French language (apparently even academic institutions have adopted this) have become so laxist as to have dropped one of the 4 nasal vowels.  What does the Académie Française say about all this? 

As per the original post, I hope the poster will decide to learn and use all four sounds.  And Prudence, you too  !

A+


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## DearPrudence

badgrammar said:
			
		

> As per the original post, I hope the poster will decide to learn and use all four sounds. And Prudence, you too  !
> 
> A+


 
I wish I could but I'm deaf! Ok, ok, maybe I hear a very very tiny difference.  
Et comme j'aime être de mauvaise foi: we know that you can't ask for a 'brun', it doesn't make sense (unless for some reason you want some brown-haired man: people are strange)  

And you experiment made me laugh.


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## Outsider

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Results:
> The 9 year-old male first studied the paper quizzically, then said "un bon brin brune"*.  Try again.  "Un bon brin-brin."  Then, third try, "Un bon brin brun".
> 
> When asked if there was a difference, he answered yes, and voiced two distinct sounds: "in" and "un".  The same results were produced for the second sentence:  He declared hearing and pronouncing different sounds in the words "un" and "vin"...  and stated "Ca rhyme pas". [...]
> 
> The 6 year old female subject was unable to read the sentence, but parroting her older sibling, she also confirmed that there was a difference and was able to produce the two distinct sounds in both word pairs.
> 
> The older male subjects (experimental variant: l'apéro), were simultaneously presented with the same sentences, and the results were astoundingly similar.


That's not surprising. It would have been more informative to interview the subjects separately, and to avoid leading their answers, as you did with the 9 year old.


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## badgrammar

Are you doubting the solid, unbiased, scientific research conducted at my house around 9 last night? Accusing that I might abuse of a child's naiveté and innocence in order to skew my results?  Balderdash!  I challenge you to a duel at midnight!

Seriously, though, more than proving my point, I wanted to find out for myself if in fact the two were pronounced the same way by native speakers.  As I have ever-so-occasionally been known to be wrong :d!.  And all differentiated (without my coaching - sentences were written) "un" and "in", and could pronounce them both correctly.

Say "un bon brin brun" 10 times fast!


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## denis-a-paris

I asked the 3 men (in their 30s) born and raised in France that I share an office with. All three said "_in_ and _un_ are pronounced exactly same" and that "vin" and "un" rhyme. 

Personally, I have approximately 100,000 other, more important problems (étais vs. été for example) with my French, but it's a very intersting insight!


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## Outsider

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Are you doubting the solid, unbiased, scientific research conducted at my house around 9 last night? Accusing that I might abuse of a child's naiveté and innocence in order to skew my results?  Balderdash!  I challenge you to a duel at midnight!
> 
> Seriously, though, more than proving my point, I wanted to find out for myself if in fact the two were pronounced the same way by native speakers.  As I have ever-so-occasionally been known to be wrong :d!.  And all differentiated (without my coaching - sentences were written) "un" and "in", and could pronounce them both correctly.
> 
> Say "un bon brin brun" 10 times fast!


Hehehe... I just got the impression, from your description, that the last three natives had heard the reply of the first, and could have been influenced by it.


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## jakey

I learnt to pronounce "in" and "un" differently but there really is no need to distinguish them as there are virtually no words that require such a distinction phonemically. There might be a few trivial exceptions like brin-brun, but it is quite useless, given the context to determine the appropriate word. But it's good to know to help your spelling as I see natives sometimes interchange "in" and "un" when guessing at a word.

On a similar note, it seems the distinction between é and è in Paris has become quite subtle and sometimes non-existent for open ended vowels.


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