# Daniel



## Du_sud

Hello everybody!

How is the name DANIEL written in the Hebrew alphabet?

Thank you


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## Merowig

דָנִיֵּאל (God is my judge)


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## Du_sud

Hi there!

By reading the other thread "john", I got a bit confused.

Are there also two forms to write "Daniel" in Hebrew?
I would like to know how "Daniel" is transcribed with Hebrew letters. I mean, how it would be written in a present-day form.

דָנִיֵּאל (God is my judge) - that seems a little more complex, doesn't it? 
I don't understand much of Hebrew, but I don't remember seeing so many little dots (don't know their official names) under letters in modern Hebrew.

Thanks to everyone who can help.


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## Nunty

The little dots are the vowels. You don't have to use them. You can just write דניאל if you prefer.


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## Du_sud

And Sister, is דניאל from right to left?


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## Nunty

Yes it is.


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## Du_sud

Thank you very much!


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## Forero

In case you didn't know, since Daniel is a native Hebrew name, it means "G-d is my judge" as well as a particular prophet's name, and a common personal name.


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## berndf

I wonder why it is pronounced דָנִיֵּאל and not דָנִיאֵל as I would naïvely expect. Is it just because names are names and have their own ways to pronounce them or is there a logic behind it of which I am ignorant?


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## Nunty

Interesting question berndf. Can you think of an example in which אל is pronounced _al_ and not_ el_?


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## berndf

I meant that the tzere would be under the aleph rather than under the jod, i.e. _dani'el _with an audible aleph (glottal stop) rather than _daniyel_ with a mute aleph but with a consonantic jod.


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## Nunty

OK, thanks. I didn't understand and my eyes weren't good enough to read what you wrote.  Sorry. One of our grammaticians (or our house phonologist?) will have to answer that one.


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## Du_sud

Ooops!
So it seems there are two ways to write Daniel with Hebrew letters...
Am I right?

Or are you just in doubt why Daniel is always written *דָנִיֵּאל *and not *דָנִ**יאֵל *?


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## berndf

The latter. It is always *דָנִיֵּאל*!

My question was: "My judge" is *דָנִ**י *and "God" is *אֵל*, so why is it pronouced *דָנִיֵּאל *rather than *דָנִיאֵל*?


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## Du_sud

Ok. I think the doubt now is for the ones who know Hebrew a lot. That's not my case. I just wanted to know how "Daniel" is written with Hebrew letters. 
So I should keep what Merowig and Nun wrote to me, right?
Thank you all!!


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## berndf

Forero said:


> In case you didn't know, since Daniel is a native Hebrew name, it means "G-d is my judge" as well as a particular prophet's name, and a common personal name.


 
A little remark: Here it would be "god is my judge" rather than "G-d is my judge" because *אֵל *is the *word* "god" which you may pronounce and not the *name *of god which you must not pronounce.


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## berndf

Du_sud said:


> Ok. I think the doubt now is for the ones who know Hebrew a lot. That's not my case. I just wanted to know how "Daniel" is written with Hebrew letters.
> So I should keep what Merowig and Nun wrote to me, right?
> Thank you all!!


 
Correct. I am terribly sorry to have confused you!


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## בעל-חלומות

berndf said:


> The latter. It is always *דָנִיֵּאל*!
> 
> My question was: "My judge" is *דָנִ**י *and "God" is *אֵל*, so why is it pronouced *דָנִיֵּאל *rather than *דָנִיאֵל*?


 
I have heard it pronounced both ways. The correct pronounciation is *דָנִ**יאֵל*, but if you try to say it fast (and I think Hebrew speakers tend to talk fast), the tiny י takes the place of the א, for some reason that linguists can probably explain. A bit like David and Goliat...


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## berndf

בעל-חלומות said:


> I have heard it pronounced both ways. The correct pronounciation is *דָנִ**יאֵל*, but if you try to say it fast (and I think Hebrew speakers tend to talk fast)


That is interesting. So I am not alone to think so. But after reading this thread I checked the tanach and actually found only *דָנִיֵּאל*. This is why I asked.



> , the tiny י takes the place of the א, for some reason that linguists can probably explain. A bit like David and Goliat...


In Tiberian pronunciation the dagesh indicates that the jod is audible consonantically in both syllables, implicitly shortening the preceding hiriq: _dā-niy-yêl_.


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## Gadyc

Ordinally, these name with אל (G-d) as sufix are ponctuated with zere under the alef.

Few exceptions: יחזקאל, ישמעאל, דניאל . 
The Alef has no vowel, and the zere is pulled to the previous consonant.

Didn't find why. 
If somebody remember more exceptions please let us know.


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## jdotjdot89

I researched for nearly an hour and couldn't find a satisfactory explanation.  I actually was completely unaware of this myself until now.

All I do know is that the tzeire being under the yod is definitely related to the dagesh chazak in the yod; the doubling of the yod allows it (and essentially requires it) to take on the vowel.  My question is just which causes which--is it doubled, so it takes the tzeire, or is it double _so that_ it can take the tzeire?

It is just possible that it's a way of including אל in a name without actually pronouncing a form of God's name...?  I really am unsure.


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## berndf

jdotjdot89 said:


> I researched for nearly an hour and couldn't find a satisfactory explanation. I actually was completely unaware of this myself until now.


Thank you very much for investing your time.



> All I do know is that the tzeire being under the yod is definitely related to the dagesh chazak in the yod; the doubling of the yod allows it (and essentially requires it) to take on the vowel. My question is just which causes which--is it doubled, so it takes the tzeire, or is it double _so that_ it can take the tzeire?


I think this is a chicken and egg type of question. If the jod takes a dagesh it is definitly consonantic and can take a vowel. If it takes a vowel it has to be constonantic. I think in modern Hebrew you would normally geninate the jod in such a case.



> It is just possible that it's a way of including אל in a name without actually pronouncing a form of God's name...? I really am unsure.


Unlikely. There are so many other names ending in -'el (Micha'el, Gavri'el, ...). In addition, I am not aware of any Jewish tradition where pronounciation of the word אל were taboo, only God's name יהוה is taboo. And even there only the full name is taboo, the shortened form יה is ok, like in "Halleluja".


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## jdotjdot89

I am completely unaware of any taboo against אל, as well.
יה is generally okay, but there are examples of avoiding it, such as using the number ט"ו for 15.

I also have to ask that in the future, you do not write out the tetragrammaton in full; rather, replace the ה with ק or just write hashem in Hebrew.


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## jdotjdot89

I do not mean to be rude; I just ask for respect reasons.


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## Gadyc

I tried to get an answer from some experts in Tanach and its gramatical rules.

All I got is that for Daniel this is the way it is wrotten. No known reason.


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## berndf

This is just a long shot as I don't know much about that language but could it be Aramaic influence? I don't think the name occurs in older texts than the Book of Daniel which is partly (originally maybe even entirely) in Aramaic.


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## jdotjdot89

The book of Daniel is in Aramaic, but the name itself is Hebrew and I highly doubt that it's Aramaic influence, as the other names that do that same thing--יחזקאל, ישמעאל--are not from Aramaic texts.


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## berndf

Correct me, if I am wrong but in the cases of יחזקאל and ישמעאל there is a phonetic rules behind the way they are pronounced. If I remember correctly what I learned many years ago (so, if my memory is failing me there, be lenient) an aleph following a shwa nakh is mute and looses its vowel to the preceeding consonant. I can't see such a rule in the case of Daniyyel.


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## Flaminius

Hello,

I am just wondering how the word is pronounced in Hebrew really.  I have been pronouncing it [dani'ʔel] all along but is it just wrong (ʔ representing glottal stop or an alef)?  Is there a gap between the supposedly correct pronunciation and the actual one?


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## berndf

The pronounciation you have in mind (and I had in mind as well before reading this thread) is דָנִיאֵל. But in the Tanakh it is דָנִיֵּאל. The missing vowel sign under the aleph means that the glottal stop is suppressed and the dagesh with the jod means that the jod is consonantic and geminated, Hence the Tiberian pronounciation is "Daniyyêl" without a glottal stop.
PS: The answer to your second question I leave to native speakers.


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## Du_sud

Oh my! I could have never imagined the transliteration of my name would bring about so many doubts among Hebrew-speakers! 
And I did think Daniel was quite a "common" name in Hebrew...


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## jdotjdot89

Flaminius said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am just wondering how the word is pronounced in Hebrew really.  I have been pronouncing it [dani'ʔel] all along but is it just wrong (ʔ representing glottal stop or an alef)?  Is there a gap between the supposedly correct pronunciation and the actual one?



It actually ends up not mattering in spoken Modern Hebrew.  The two come out nearly identical, as dageshim chazakim are ignored most of the time.  So you've been pronouncing it fine all along, and it's hard to tell how modern-day speakers say it, since "dani-'el" and "daniy-yel" sound nearly identical, especially when spoken quickly.



berndf said:


> Correct me, if I am wrong but in the cases of יחזקאל and ישמעאל there is a phonetic rules behind the way they are pronounced. If I remember correctly what I learned many years ago (so, if my memory is failing me there, be lenient) an aleph following a shwa nakh is mute and looses its vowel to the preceeding consonant. I can't see such a rule in the case of Daniyyel.



I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.


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## berndf

jdotjdot89 said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.


 
I was responding to your choice of counter examples in #27. But never mind, as I said, it was a long shot.


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## Flaminius

jdotjdot89 said:


> So you've been pronouncing it fine all along, and it's hard to tell how modern-day speakers say it, since "dani-'el" and "daniy-yel" sound nearly identical, especially when spoken quickly.


 You are saying /ʔel/ and /jel/ are not so different?  This surprises me.  Sorry for being tenacious but maybe I should go one step back and ask which syllable of _Daniel_ gets the accent.  If it's /da/ against all my expectations, well then the two consonants, I must admit, can hardly distinguishable in an unstressed syllable.


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## jdotjdot89

The stress is on the last syllable, but it still does sound very similar, specifically because the yod is doubled.  Try saying it out loud-- "daniy-yel" and "daniy-'el" sound very similar, especially if you saying it quickly and without thinking about it like an Israeli would.

If you separate out the last syllable, the difference between 'el and yel becomes a lot more obvious, which is how people can differentiate between words starting with a yod or an aleph.  But in the middle like that, especially with a dagesh chazak, it's not so noticeable.


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## jdotjdot89

Flaminius said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am just wondering how the word is pronounced in Hebrew really.  I have been pronouncing it [dani'ʔel] all along but is it just wrong (ʔ representing glottal stop or an alef)?  Is there a gap between the supposedly correct pronunciation and the actual one?



So, in answer to your original question, I suppose there is a sort of gap.  I myself was not aware of how this aspect of דניאל until commenting on this thread.  Though like I was saying, it doesn't _really_ matter how you say it since they sound similar, if I was asked to break apart the syllables, I would have said "dani-'el".  The word is written "daniy-yel", so I suppose there is a difference.  I'm sure not everyone makes this mistake, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who has, either.


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## Daniel33

** NEW QUESTION **
Threads merged by moderator


Hello,

I am working on translating my name in Hebrew text. I have learned that Daniel is built from the Hebrew syllables "dan" for judge and "iel" for of/by God. 

I am interested to get the text for the phrase "God is my Judge" and its phonetic pronunciation in English. This task was too important to just plug into a Hebrew-English translator. I figured it would be best to consult more expert assistance 

Thanks in advance for your help


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## berndf

We had already two threads about this: here and here. This should answer all of your questions. And, btw., if you want to split it into its components, "Dani-el" makes more sense than "Dan-iel": "Dan" means "judge" and "dani" means "my judge". The vocalization in the Bible is "Daniyel" which is somewhat surprising. It is discussed in threads I mentioned above.


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## Daniel33

Thank you very much!!!


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