# سبب الزيارة الدراسة



## Ibn Nacer

Hello,

I wonder if the answer below is correct grammatically :

Question : "*ما سبب الزيارة ؟*"
Answer : "*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*"

I think that we should not put the definite article (in red), what do you think ?
*
*​


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## Faylasoof

I think you should have the definite article because it is about something specific.


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> I think you should have the definite article because it is about something specific.



You're right but in this case the answer("*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*") is not a nominal sentence, is not it ?


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## Ibn Nacer

Hello,

Si nous mettons l'article défini alors je pense qu'il faut écrire : *"سبب الزيارة هو الدراسة"*, non ?
if we put the definite article so I think we should write : *"سبب الزيارة هو الدراسة"*, no ?


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## Faylasoof

Then idiomatically it'll be:
 _The reason for the visit is studies / to study_


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> Then idiomatically it'll be:
> _The reason for the visit is studies / to study_


Yes, if we add "*هو*", is not it ?


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## Faylasoof

Sorry, I meant that.


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## Ibn Nacer

Hello

With translator :


"What reason for the visit?" - "*ما سبب الزيارة ؟*"
 "The reason for the visit, the study" - "*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*"


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## Faylasoof

No, in English we don't use <the> here!

Idiomatically :
 _The reason for the visit is studies / to study_ 

Now I know _studies_ is plural but that is how say it or we use the infinitive _to study_.


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## cherine

Ibn Nacer said:


> You're right but in this case the answer("*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*") is not a nominal sentence, is not it ?


Arabic has only two types of sentences: nominal and verbal. A verbal sentence starts with a verb. 
This one does not have a verb, so it can't be anything else but nominal. 

The parsing is:
سببُ: مضاف
الزيارةِ: مضاف إليه
شبه الجملة المكوَّن من المضاف والمضاف إليه في محل رفع خبر مقدم
الدراسةُ: مبتدأ مؤخر

When the khabar is a شبه جملة (sorry, don't know how to say that in any other language but Arabic) it comes before the mubtada2.

I hope I didn't confuse you too much. Si tu as besoin d'une traduction francaise de mon poste, fais-le moi savoir.


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## Ibn Nacer

cherine said:


> I hope I didn't confuse you too much. Si tu as besoin d'une traduction francaise de mon poste, fais-le moi savoir.


Bonsoir Cherine,

Je te remercie pour cette réponse bénéfique (sourire). Je n'ai pas besoin d'une traduction (du moins pour cette fois) mais je te remercie de me l'avoir proposé.

Par contre je vais écrire en français *mais tu peux me répondre en anglais afin que tes réponses profitent aussi aux non francophones*, d'accord ? (sourire)



cherine said:


> Arabic has only two types of sentences: nominal and verbal. A verbal sentence starts with a verb.
> This one does not have a verb, so it can't be anything else but nominal.
> 
> The parsing is:
> سببُ: مضاف
> الزيارةِ: مضاف إليه
> شبه الجملة المكوَّن من المضاف والمضاف إليه في محل رفع خبر مقدم
> الدراسةُ: مبتدأ مؤخر
> 
> When the khabar is a شبه جملة (sorry, don't know how to say that in any other language but Arabic) it comes before the mubtada2.



Ah d'accord, je croyais que le khabar était "*الدراسة*" c'est pour cela que je ne comprenais pas qu'il porte l'article défini. 


1- Donc si j'ai bien compris on a en français "l'étude est la raison de la visite" ? Mais par contre il n'est pas correcte d'écrire : *الدراسة سبب الزيارة*, c'est bien ça ?

2- Sinon je croyais que *le khabar devait être indéfini* mais là c'est *une idafa défini*, n'est-ce pas ?

3- Comment as-tu su que le khabar était "*سبب الزيارة*" ? Si j'avais écrit ""*سبب الزيارة دراسة*" est-ce que le khabar serait toujours "*سبب الزيارة*" ?




cherine said:


> When the khabar is a شبه جملة (sorry, don't know how to say that in any other language but Arabic) *it comes before the mubtada2*.


C'est toujours comme cela ?

Par exemple comment traduire cette phrase  "*Ceci est un livre de l'étudiant*" ? Puis-je écrire "*هذا كتاب طالب*", est-ce correcte ?

Mais comment traduire cette phrase  "*Ceci est le livre de l'étudiant*" ? Je ne peux pas écrire "*هذا كتاب الطالب*" car cela signifie "*ce livre de l'étudiant*", ce n'est donc pas une jumlah ismiyyah mais alors comment faire ?

Doit-on écrire : "*هذا هو كتاب **الطالب*", est-ce correcte ? 

Pardon pour toutes ces questions, j'espère que je n'abuse pas trop. (Sourire).


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## Ibn Nacer

Hello,

I do not understand why this answer ("*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*") is perfect. I thought this answer was not a nominal sentence because the word "*الدراسة*" is definite by the definite article.

I thought that "*سبب الزيارة*" was the mubtada and that "*الدراسة*" was the khabar but the khabar should be indefinite, is not it ? So I thought it necessary to write the answer like this: "*سبب الزيارة دراسة*" (without the indefinite article***) or "*الدراسة سبب الزيارة*" (with the indefinite article).

*** If we put the definite article so I think we should write : *"سبب الزيارة هو الدراسة"*?


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## Faylasoof

Hi!

Let me try to explain it this way. I’ll use mostly English grammatical terminology with some Arabic equivalents thrown in.

The sentence under consideration is indeed a nominal or equational sentence (الجملة الاسمية) as it is “verbless” in contrast to a verbal sentence (الجملة الفعلية) where a verb is present usually though not always at the beginning.

Equational sentences are of many kinds and can have a subject (المبتدأ) which is either definite (معرفة) or indefinite (نكرة).

In these sentences, the subject is definite:  

هو رجل
He is a man 

_hua_ (هو) is the subject and being a pronoun makes it definite. The predicate is rajul (رجل) – indefinite, nominative state.

الطالب مجتهد
The student is diligent / hardworking

Again, _aT-Taalib_ (الطالب) is the subject and _mujtahid_ (مجتهد) is the predicate. Same state as above. 


مفتاح الجنة الصلاة
The key to Paradise is prayers


Here we have a genitive phrase as the subject where _miftaa7_ (مفتاح) is definite as it is part of a genitive construct state with a definite noun _al-jannah_ (الجنة). In English, _miftaah_ would be called the 1st particle of the genitive construct (مضاف) and _al-jannah_ the 2nd particle of the genitive construct (مضاف إليه). 

The predicate here happens to be a definite noun (الصلاة)! 

This sentence is just like the one we are dealing with.

سبب الزيارة الدراسة

Here _sabab uz ziyaarah_ (سبب الزيارة) is a genitive phrase and the subject where سبب becomes definite as it forms a genitive construct with the definite noun الزيارة.  Like above, the predicate here happens to be a definite noun, viz. الدراسة.

Hope it makes sense!


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> مفتاح الجنة الصلاة
> The key to Paradise is prayers
> 
> 
> Here we have a genitive phrase as the subject where _miftaa7_ (مفتاح) is definite as it is part of a genitive construct state with a definite noun _al-jannah_ (الجنة). In English, _miftaah_ would be called the 1st particle of the genitive construct (مضاف) and _al-jannah_ the 2nd particle of the genitive construct (مضاف إليه).
> 
> The predicate here happens to be a definite noun (الصلاة)!
> 
> This sentence is just like the one we are dealing with.
> 
> سبب الزيارة الدراسة
> 
> Here _sabab uz ziyaarah_ (سبب الزيارة) is a genitive phrase and the subject where سبب becomes definite as it forms a genitive construct with the definite noun الزيارة.  Like above, the predicate here happens to be a definite noun, viz. الدراسة.
> 
> Hope it makes sense!


Hello,

Thank you very much for your helpful answer. Thank you for your efforts.

OK,So here we have :

- "*مفتاح الجنة*" and "*سبب الزيارة*" are *mubtada *(subject).
- "*الصلاة*" and "*الدراسة*"" are *khabar* (predicate).

So here the khabar comes *after* the mubtada2 contrary to what was said Cherine ? :



cherine said:


> The parsing is:
> سببُ: مضاف
> الزيارةِ: مضاف إليه
> شبه الجملة المكوَّن من المضاف والمضاف إليه في محل رفع خبر مقدم
> الدراسةُ: مبتدأ مؤخر



On the other hand, the rule cited by Cherine*** is correct but I think both idafa "*مفتاح الجنة*" and "*سبب الزيارة*" are not *شبه جملة*.

** "*When the khabar is a شبه جملة (sorry, don't know how to say that in any other language but Arabic) it comes *before* the mubtada2.*"*


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## Faylasoof

OK! Here is another way to look at this. 

Firstly, both <سبب الزيارة الدراسة> and <مفتاح الجنة الصلاة> are considered correct. The problem is to explain this according to the rules of Classical Arabic grammar. 

The preliminary reading I did on this seems to suggest that the genitive (idhafa) construct may not be a شبه جملة. (mentioned in thread of the same title).

Usually for equational sentences, the subject (المبتدأ) in the definite state (معرفة), precedes the predicate (خبر). When, however, you have the subject following (مبتدأ مؤخر) and the predicate preceding (خبر مقدم) the subject is normally indefinite (نكرة). This is generally the case when the predicate is a شبه جملة. 

The examples we are discussing are exceptional and may fall into a separate category. I think the Arab grammarians recognised this and though they may have doubted the exact nature of these sentences, grammatically speaking, they were never declared meaningless. 

I believe the term we use for them is:

_Transposed  Equational  Sentence_

(Sorry, I don't know the Arabic equivalent of this!).


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> OK! Here is another way to look at this.
> 
> Firstly, both <سبب الزيارة الدراسة> and <مفتاح الجنة الصلاة> are considered correct. The problem is to explain this according to the rules of Classical Arabic grammar.



Yes, I think you're right, these sentences are correct and the problem is to explain this according to the rules of Classical Arabic grammar, as you say.

I think there are two categories:

1 - The subject (mubtada ') is a single word.
2 - The subject (mubtada ') is an idhafah.

If the subject (mubtada ') is an idhafah then I think the khabar can be definite or undefinite.

_The reason for the visit is studies(_Faylasoof_) _"*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*"

Now if I want to say "the reason is studies" (The subject (mubtada ') is not an idhafah but it's a single word), can I write this "* ال**سبب الدراسة*" ? I do not think this is correct, I think it is necessary in this case to add "*هو*" like this "* ال**سبب **هو** الدراسة*". What do you think ?


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## Faylasoof

Glad you agree that what I believe are _transposed equational sentences _ are correct! 
Anyway, as to this:


Ibn Nacer said:


> .... Now if I want to say "the reason is studies" (The subject (mubtada ') is not an idhafah but it's a single word), can I write this "* ال**سبب الدراسة*" ? I do not think this is correct, I think it is necessary in this case to add "*هو*" like this "* ال**سبب **هو** الدراسة*". What do you think ?



You are right!  This is incorrect * ال**سبب الدراسة* 
This sentence is meaningless as you can't tell which is the subject (_mubtada2_) and which the predicate (_khabar_) -both are definite!  

But this is correct:  *ال**سبب **هو** الدراسة*
As you have now introduced the _copula pronoun_ (*هو*- also called the _pronoun of separation_) which now separates the _khabar_ in the defined state from the _mubtada2_, also in the defined state, this makes the sentence valid.

(You'll also need the _copula pronoun_ when in some instances you have a demonstrative followed by a noun. For example, if you want to say: _This *is* the boy_ = *هذا هو الولد*. 
As you might guess, dropping the pronoun would also give a valid sentence but with a different meaning: *هذا الولد* = This boy.) *
*


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## shafaq

Faylasoof said:


> [/COLOR][/SIZE]As you might guess, dropping the pronoun would also give a *valid sentence* but with a different meaning: *هذا الولد* = This boy.) *
> *


.
I think it is a typo !  In my opinion; هذا الولد can't be a sentence but a شبه جملة where it doesn't carry neither any information nor act.


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> Glad you agree that what I believe are _transposed equational sentences _ are correct!
> Anyway, as to this:
> 
> 
> You are right!  This is incorrect * ال**سبب الدراسة*
> This sentence is meaningless as you can't tell which is the subject (_mubtada2_) and which the predicate (_khabar_) -both are definite!
> 
> But this is correct:  *ال**سبب **هو** الدراسة*
> As you have now introduced the _copula pronoun_ (*هو*- also called the _pronoun of separation_) which now separates the _khabar_ in the defined state from the _mubtada2_, also in the defined state, this makes the sentence valid.*
> *


Thanks you very much.




shafaq said:


> .
> I think it is a typo !  In my opinion; هذا الولد can't be a sentence but a شبه جملة where it doesn't carry neither any information nor act.


Hello Shafaq,

Yes, you're right it's not a *sentence*, it is a *Demonstrative Phrase *(مركب إشاري). *The Demonstrative Phrase *(مركب إشاري) has two parts the demonstrating pronoun and the demonstrated noun.

But I do not think this is a شبه جملة


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## shafaq

I think its kind(being as a demonsrative phrase) doesn't cancel being of quasi-sentence look alike your nationality and/or sex doesn't cancel your humanity. Huh! What a comparison !


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## Faylasoof

shafaq said:


> .
> I think it is a typo ! In my opinion; هذا الولد can't be a sentence but a شبه جملة where it doesn't carry neither any information nor act.



Yes, it is not what I meant! You are right It is not a sentence. Will be if you made it هذا ولد !



Ibn Nacer said:


> Hello Shafaq,
> 
> Yes, you're right it's not a *sentence*, it is a *Demonstrative Phrase *(مركب إشاري). *The Demonstrative Phrase *(مركب إشاري) has two parts the demonstrating pronoun and the demonstrated noun.
> 
> But I do not think this is a شبه جملة



Agree! It is a demonstrative phrase. We did شبه جملة in the thread with this title.

_BTW, it is now 3:30 AM here and I need sleep very badly!_


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## Ibn Nacer

shafaq said:


> I think its kind(being as a demonsrative phrase) doesn't cancel being of quasi-sentence look alike your nationality and/or sex doesn't cancel your humanity. Huh! What a comparison !


 
I think that the rule cited by Cherine* is correct but according to this rule, if we consider that  "*هذا الولد*" is a  *شبه جملة* then this example "*هذا الولد** جميل*" would be incorrect because the khabar comes after the mubtada.

But I think this example is correct so I deduced that "*هذا الولد*" is not a  *شبه جملة*.

*Unless this rule (cited by Cherine**) are some exceptions?
*



** "*When the khabar is a شبه جملة (sorry, don't know how to say that in any other language but Arabic) it comes *before* the mubtada2.*"*
​


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## shafaq

I think we all need more proof for what we think that we know.


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## Ibn Nacer

shafaq said:


> I think we all need more proof for what we think that we know.



You are right,


Hello,

Regardez ce cours a l'air intéressant :

http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/lisan/grammar2.htm

C'est encore trop dur pour moi mais bon on va essayer...


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## Ibn Nacer

Ibn Nacer said:


> *Unless this rule (cited by Cherine**) are some exceptions?*
> ​


It seems that there are many exceptions, I would come back on this subject in this discussion :

"شبه جملة" what is it ?​


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## Ibn Nacer

shafaq said:


> I think we all need more proof for what we think that we know.



You are right,

See this passage :


> *أنواع الخبر:* ثلاثة:
> 
> 1- *المفرد:* ويقصد به غير الجملة أو شبهها، نحو: عليٌّ أديبُ، الطالبان مجتهدان، الصدقُ نجاةٌ، هو صادقٌ، هذا كريمٌ.
> 
> 2- *الجملة:* وهي نوعان:
> الجملة الاسمية: محمدٌ خلُقُه كريمٌ، المزرعةُ أرضُها خصبةٌ. (محمد: مبتدأ أول، خلقه: مبتدأ ثانٍ، كريم: خبر المبتدأ الثاني، والجملة الاسمية المؤلفة من المبتدأ الثاني وخبره في محل رفع خبر المبتدأ الأول).
> الجملة الفعلية: الطالب يحبُّ العلم، الفلاح يُصْلِح أرضه. المسافرون عادوا إلى بلدهم. (الطالب: مبتدأ، يحب فعل مضارع وفاعله مستتر جوازا تقديره هو، والجملة الفعلية في محل رفع خبر للطالب).
> 
> 3- *شبه الجملة:*
> -* الجار والمجرور*: خالدٌ *في* الدارِ، الزادُ *على* الراحلةِ. البستان *بقرب* النهرِ.
> - *الظرف*: البيت *فوقَ* الجبلِ، الفلاحُ* تحت *الشجرة، القائدُ *أمامَ *الجيشِ​
> *Source : *http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/lisan/grammar2.htm


 *The Demonstrative Phrase *(مركب إشاري) is not cited. What do you think, please?


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## shafaq

No comment for the time being save than "Everything is possible in this mortal environment."(!)


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## Ibn Nacer

shafaq said:


> No comment for the time being save than "Everything is possible in this mortal environment."(!)


Ok, so I will *also* ask my question in another environment. (smile) But your help is always welcome.


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## Ibn Nacer

Ibn Nacer said:


> Hello,
> 
> I do not understand why this answer ("*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*") is perfect. I thought this answer was not a nominal sentence because the word "*الدراسة*" is definite by the definite article.
> 
> I thought that "*سبب الزيارة*" was the mubtada and that "*الدراسة*" was the khabar *but the khabar should be indefinite*, is not it ? So I thought it necessary to write the answer like this: "*سبب الزيارة دراسة*" (without the indefinite article***) or "*الدراسة سبب الزيارة*" (with the indefinite article).
> 
> *** If we put the definite article so I think we should write : *"سبب الزيارة هو الدراسة"*?


I remember why I said * the khabar should be indefinite*, I think what I said is correct if the *khabar** is an adjective :

*Example : This expression "*بيت محمد الكبير*" is *not* a sentence it means "the large house of Muhammad" but this "*بيت محمد كبير*" is a sentence it means "the house of Muhammad *is* large).

That's what confused me, both sentences are grammatically similar, the only difference is that the word "*كبير*" is an adjective and "*دراسة*" is not an adjective :

*سبب الزيارة الدراسة*
*بيت محمد الكبير*

The first is a sentence but not the second. What do you think, please? 		

​


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## Faylasoof

Ok, Ibn Nacer! Here we go!

I agree, the new sentence, <بيت محمد كبير> is a sentence and it means <The house of Muhammad is large / big>.

The other new sentence above is not as bad as that! Both of these are real and valid sentences:

سبب الزيارة الدراسة
بيت محمد الكبير

I see the argument you are using above for the second one not being a sentence but I don't see why. Both have _idhafah_ constructions at the begining and the argument I used to validate the first apply equally to the second. 

Also, there is one important rule in _idhafah_ constructions, which I'm sure you know. Nothing can come between the 1st particle of a genitive construction (مضاف), and its genitive – the 2nd particle (مضاف إليه). So _any word that_ _qualifies or bears any relation to the construct _has to either follow it (i.e. an adjective [الكبير] or a noun [الدراسة]) or precede it (here the noun الدراسة, for example) but never interpose the two particles..

Besides all this, _the exact meaning of the second would depend on the vowelling_: 

بَیتُ مُحَمَّد ٍالکَبِیر ِ 
_bayt__u__Muhammad__in__ al-kabeer__i_

The house of the big / great Muhammad

 بَیتُ مُحَمَّد ٍالکَبِیرُ
_bayt__u __Muhammad__in__ al-kabeer__u_

The large / big house of Muhammad / Muhammad’s large / big house

So, as you say, its structure is just like, سبب الزيارة الدراسة , except you now have an adjective instead of a noun that follows the _idhafah_ construction. If you agree that the first is a sentence then second one is too. The presence of an adjective instead of a noun doesn't make any difference.


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## Ibn Nacer

Faylasoof said:


> Ok, Ibn Nacer! Here we go!
> 
> I agree, the new sentence, <بيت محمد كبير> is a sentence and it means <The house of Muhammad is large / big>.
> 
> The other new sentence above is not as bad as that! Both of these are real and valid sentences:
> 
> سبب الزيارة الدراسة
> بيت محمد الكبير
> 
> I see the argument you are using above for the second one not being a sentence but I don't see why. Both have _idhafah_ constructions at the begining and the argument I used to validate the first apply equally to the second.
> 
> Also, there is one important rule in _idhafah_ constructions, which I'm sure you know. Nothing can come between the 1st particle of a genitive construction (مضاف), and its genitive – the 2nd particle (مضاف إليه). So _any word that_ _qualifies or bears any relation to the construct _has to either follow it (i.e. an adjective [الكبير] or a noun [الدراسة]) or precede it (here the noun الدراسة, for example) but never interpose the two particles..
> 
> Besides all this, _the exact meaning of the second would depend on the vowelling_:
> 
> بَیتُ مُحَمَّد ٍالکَبِیر ِ
> _bayt__u__Muhammad__in__ al-kabeer__i_
> 
> The house of the big / great Muhammad
> 
> بَیتُ مُحَمَّد ٍالکَبِیرُ
> _bayt__u __Muhammad__in__ al-kabeer__u_
> 
> The large / big house of Muhammad / Muhammad’s large / big house


Yes, you're right and I know this rule but I think in both cases this is not a complete sentence, ie a nominale sentence with a mubtada and Khabar.

In this expression "بيت محمد الكبير" there is no khabar. Do you understand what I mean?


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## Faylasoof

No _khabar_? You feel الكبير cannot be _khabar_ here? 

 A predicate (خبر) can also be a noun (substantive or adjective). Here it is الكبير.


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## cherine

Hi guys,

I got lost in all the post and I think that maybe there's a need to restart the thread from the begining  More important, I have to confess that I apparently did a mistake.

So, until I get more time and more energy to focus on details, I'll reply to the last part:
بيت محمد الكبير is indeed an incomplete sentence.
 
بيتُ: مبتدأ
محمدٍ: مضاف إليه
الكبير: نعت/صفة لـ"بيت"

So, there is no khabar in this sentence.
To have a khabar, you can either say بيتُ محمدٍ كبيرٌ or بيتُ محمدٍ الكبيرُ واسع and واسع will be the khabar. For a khabar must be indefinite.

My most sincere appology for any misleading words I have posted.


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## azeid

cherine said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I got lost in all the post and I think that maybe there's a need to restart the thread from the begining  More important, I have to confess that I apparently did a mistake.
> 
> So, until I get more time and more energy to focus on details, I'll reply to the last part:
> بيت محمد الكبير is indeed an incomplete sentence.
> 
> بيتُ: مبتدأ
> محمدٍ: مضاف إليه
> الكبير: نعت/صفة لـ"بيت"
> 
> So, there is no khabar in this sentence.
> To have a khabar, you can either say بيتُ محمدٍ كبيرٌ or بيتُ محمدٍ الكبيرُ واسع and واسع will be the khabar. For a khabar must be indefinite.
> 
> My most sincere appology for any misleading words I have posted.



Hi Cherine,
If this sentence is alone "بيت محمد الكبير" , I would say that  بيت is khabar.
Sorry I will switch to Arabic,
بيت: خبر لمبتدأ محذوف جوازاً تقديره "هذا بيت" مرفوع و علامة رفعه الضمة الظاهرة
محمد : مضاف إليه
الكبير: نعت لبيت مرفوع و علامة الرفع الضمة الظاهرة
و بالتالى يصبح تقدير الجملة
هذا بيتُ محمدٍ الكبيرُ​


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## Ibn Nacer

cherine said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I got lost in all the post and I think that maybe there's a need to restart the thread from the begining  More important, I have to confess that I apparently did a mistake.
> 
> So, until I get more time and more energy to focus on details, I'll reply to the last part:
> بيت محمد الكبير is indeed an incomplete sentence.
> 
> بيتُ: مبتدأ
> محمدٍ: مضاف إليه
> الكبير: نعت/صفة لـ"بيت"
> 
> So, there is no khabar in this sentence.
> To have a khabar, you can either say بيتُ محمدٍ كبيرٌ or بيتُ محمدٍ الكبيرُ واسع and واسع will be the khabar. For a khabar must be indefinite.
> 
> My most sincere appology for any misleading words I have posted.


Bonsoir Cherine,

Ben moi je te remercie pour ton message car cela nous a poussé à faire des recherches qui je pense ont été bénéfiques, j'ai beaucoup appris, merci. Sinon je crois que sur ce dernier point nous sommes d'accord mais je n'ai pas compris pourquoi tu as écrit "*بيتُ: مبتدأ*" n'est pas plutôt "*بيتُ: مضاف*" que tu voulais écrire ?


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## Ibn Nacer

azeid said:


> Hi Cherine,
> If this sentence is alone "بيت محمد الكبير" , I would say that  بيت is khabar.
> Sorry I will switch to Arabic,
> بيت: خبر لمبتدأ محذوف جوازاً تقديره "هذا بيت" مرفوع و علامة رفعه الضمة الظاهرة
> محمد : مضاف إليه
> الكبير: نعت لبيت مرفوع و علامة الرفع الضمة الظاهرة
> و بالتالى يصبح تقدير الجملة
> هذا بيتُ محمدٍ الكبيرُ​


Hi Azeid, 

What is " "لمبتدأ محذوف جوازاً تقديره "هذا بيت" please ?


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## cherine

Bonsoir Ibn Nacer,

Merci pour les gentils mots! Je sentais vraiment mal d'avoir donné une réponse aussi fausse. 



Ibn Nacer said:


> je n'ai pas compris pourquoi tu as écrit "*بيتُ: مبتدأ*" n'est pas plutôt "*بيتُ: مضاف*" que tu voulais écrire ?


مضاف en soit n'est pas une position grammaticale importante parce qu'un mot peut être مضاف et autre chose, donc c'est "l'autre chose" qui compte le plus.
 بيت est en même temps مبتدأ et مضاف 
Si je dis رأيتُ بيتَ محمد le mot بيت restera مضاف mais il devient مفعول به
De même si je dis مشيت بجانب بيتِ محمد le mot بيت devient un مضاف إليه *et* مضاف .

J'espère que ce n'est pas trop compliqué.


Ibn Nacer said:


> Hi Azeid,
> 
> What is " "لمبتدأ محذوف جوازاً تقديره "هذا بيت" please ?


Ça veut dire que بيت est خبر et que le مبتدأ de cette phrase -qui a dû être هذا- est élidé.


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## azeid

Ibn Nacer said:


> Hi Azeid,
> 
> What is " "لمبتدأ محذوف جوازاً تقديره "هذا بيت" please ?





cherine said:


> Ça veut dire que بيت est خبر et que le مبتدأ de cette phrase -qui a dû être هذا- est élidé.


It seems that Cherine answered your question.I'm sorry but the last time I dealt with French was in the high school.
عموماً أى جملة اسمية لا بد لها من مبتدأ و خبر 
يجوز تقديم الخبر على المبتدأ لأسباب بلاغية
هناك حالات يجوز فيها حذف الخبر أو المبتدأ
و هناك حالات أخرى يكون حذف المبتدأ أو الخبر فيها واجب

عذراً لم أقرأ الموضوع من بدايته و أتمنى أن تكون مشاركتى مفيدة​


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