# Danish: pronunciation Zandvliet



## zhangjianjia

hi anyone here?  can you tell me how do you pronounce "Zandvliet"(as in names) in Danish?  
please help and thanks！


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## cocuyo

I guess you might get a better answer if you ask in the Dutch forum, as the name seems to be a Dutch name rather than Scandinavian. You might perhaps also be interested in how it would be pronounced in Afrikaans, although it won't differ much from Dutch in the Netherlands or Belgium.


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## zhangjianjia

thanks for answering


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## Ben Jamin

Actiually the name is Flemish, it is a name of a town in Belgium.
Go to IVONA text to voice software homepage and choose Netherlands voice (they have no Flemish, but they are similar) and write inn the word. You'll get the pronunciation.


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## cocuyo

The winery with that name is South African, that's why I suggested Afrikaans, which is a Dutch dialect.


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## Ben Jamin

cocuyo said:


> The winery with that name is South African, that's why I suggested Afrikaans, which is a Dutch dialect.


Well, Afrikaans is actually a "language on its own", not a dialect of Dutch.


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## Segorian

Ben Jamin said:


> Well, Afrikaans is actually a "language on its own", not a dialect of Dutch.


Afrikaans a language in its own right? Must we then also say that Swedish and Norwegian are separate languages rather than dialects of Danish?


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## raumar

Let's not forget that zhangjianjia asked for the Danish pronounciation of Zandvliet. He/she may have a good reason for asking for the Danish pronounciation of a Dutch name. For example, there seems to be a Danish movie director called Martin Zandvliet (presumably with Dutch, Flemish or South African ancestors). If the question is about the pronounciation of this name, Danish would be the right language. 

Zhangjianjia, maybe you could clarify why you ask for the Danish pronouciation of a Dutch/Flemish/Afrikaans name? That will make it easier to help you.


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## Ben Jamin

Segorian said:


> Afrikaans a language in its own right? Must we then also say that Swedish and Norwegian are separate languages rather than dialects of Danish?


I'm afraid so. Have you tried to communicate with Danes in Swedish?


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## Ben Jamin

raumar said:


> Let's not forget that zhangjianjia asked for the Danish pronounciation of Zandvliet. He/she may have a good reason for asking for the Danish pronounciation of a Dutch name. For example, there seems to be a Danish movie director called Martin Zandvliet (presumably with Dutch, Flemish or South African ancestors). If the question is about the pronounciation of this name, Danish would be the right language.
> 
> Zhangjianjia, maybe you could clarify why you ask for the Danish pronouciation of a Dutch/Flemish/Afrikaans name? That will make it easier to help you.


I had no Danish speaker to consult, but IVONA text to speech gives (in English transcription) something sounding like "Sanweel", that is how a Dane would read the name never having heard it. If he/she had heard the Dutch pronunciation they would probably try to imitate it and render as "Sanfleet". I'm not sure if there would be many managing to pronounce the "Z" as voiced.
By the way, the Dutch pronunciation is "Zahndfleet" (in English transcription).


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## Segorian

Try the link below. Martin Zandvliet is mentioned at around 4:40, and again at 14:30.
DR Netradio: Hør P6 BEAT med Mikael Simpson på DR P6 BEAT


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## Segorian

Ben Jamin said:


> I'm afraid so. Have you tried to communicate with Danes in Swedish?


I have, and with practice it can be done! Of course I know what you mean  but here's the thing: I can communicate very easily with (nearly all) Norwegians, so it always feels to me as if Swedish and Norwegian are simply two dialects of a single language. Given that, it seems natural to include Danish in such a group of dialects, despite the lower level of mutual intelligibility (especially between Danish and Swedish, as you point out).


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## Sepia

Segorian said:


> Afrikaans a language in its own right? Must we then also say that Swedish and Norwegian are separate languages rather than dialects of Danish?



A pretty good description of the difference is that a language is a dialect that has its own army, airforce and sometimes also a navy.

Norwegian would still be considered a dialect of Danish if they had not gained autonomy. There is really less difference between Norwegian and Danish than there is between some North German variation of High German and a Bavarian dialect.


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## Sepia

Segorian said:


> I have, and with practice it can be done! Of course I know what you mean  but here's the thing: I can communicate very easily with (nearly all) Norwegians, so it always feels to me as if Swedish and Norwegian are simply two dialects of a single language. Given that, it seems natural to include Danish in such a group of dialects, despite the lower level of mutual intelligibility (especially between Danish and Swedish, as you point out).



It is usually possible if both speakers have the depth of knowledge in their languages that natives normally have. If it is an immigrant that has learned either Swedish or Danish even to a very good level it is still not practical to try to speak in Danish with him if he speaks Swedish nor vice versa.


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## Ben Jamin

Sepia said:


> It is usually possible if both speakers have the depth of knowledge in their languages that natives normally have. If it is an immigrant that has learned either Swedish or Danish even to a very good level it is still not practical to try to speak in Danish with him if he speaks Swedish nor vice versa.


There are no precise and generally accepted definitions of a dialect and a "language at its own", so the only reliable way of classifying a speech as the one or the other is self definition and convention. According to the both aforementioned criteria Afrikaans, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are "languages at their own", and people can write wht they want without affecting the convention.
By the way, the catchy phrase "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" is as catchy as it is untrue. There are definitely hundreds of distinct languages that lack both.


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## cocuyo

Ben Jamin said:


> By the way, the catchy phrase "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" is as catchy as it is untrue. There are definitely hundreds of distinct languages that lack both.



I came to think of Switzerland with at least four different languages, far inland, as well as Bolivia, also inland, but also with at least four different languages. How would I define a "Swiss" language or one that is "Bolivian"? In Sweden we have several minority languages, which should not be classified as dialects of Swedish. And in relation to this thread, Afrikaans, just as Quechua, Romani, Langue d'Oc or Romansch, shares the lack of army and navy, but nonetheless, it is a language different from English or Xhosa, but not so different from Dutch.

Whether you prefer not to bundle Afrikaans with Dutch or make a distinction between Dutch and Flemish is up to you. I mostly refer to Dutch as 'Nederlands' without trying to separate it from 'Vlaams'. Whether to separate the three Scandinavian languages, it depends on the context. When discussing differences between them, it makes sense, but there are far too many similarities to ignore their kinship.


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## Hans Molenslag

Ben Jamin said:


> By the way, the Dutch pronunciation is "Zahndfleet" (in English transcription).


A small correction, if I may: the d is devoiced, i.e. pronounced as a t, in final position, just like in German and a few other languages. As a result the following v is assimilated and becomes a voiceless f.

/'zɑntflit/


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## Ben Jamin

Hans M. said:


> A small correction, if I may: the d is devoiced, i.e. pronounced as a t, in final position, just like in German and a few other languages. As a result the following v is assimilated and becomes a voiceless f.
> 
> /'zɑntflit/


Thanks! I'm not fluent in Dutch, so I described what I heard at IVONA, as it turns out, not precisely.


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## Hans Molenslag

> A pretty good description of the difference is that a language is a dialect that has its own army, airforce and sometimes also a navy.


A modernized version could be: "A language is a dialect supported by a school system." In other words, a language is a school subject. If a language is taught within its own geographical area to young native speakers as their primary language and if it can be studied outside its geographical area by non-native speakers as a foreign language, it's generally considered a language. Otherwise, it's a dialect, a vernacular or a regional language.

That's why, to all intents and purposes, Elfdalian for example is a dialect rather than a language, despite its linguistic uniqueness. And that's why Afrikaans on the one hand is a language in its own right and Flemish on the other hand isn't.


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## Ben Jamin

Hans M. said:


> A modernized version could be: "a language is a dialect supported by a school system." In other words, a language is a school subject. If a language is taught within its own geographical area to young native speakers as their primary language and if it is can be studied outside its geographical area by non-native speakers as a foreign language, it's generally considered a language. Otherwise, it's a dialect, a vernacular or a regional language.
> 
> That's why, to all intents and purposes, Elfdalian for example is a dialect rather than a language, despite its linguistic uniqueness. And that's why Afrikaans on the one hand is a language in its own right and Flemish on the other hand isn't.


How would you assess the degree of mutual intelligiblity between Dutch and Flemish on one hand, and Dutch/Flemish and Afrikaans on the other?


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## Ben Jamin

Hans M. said:


> That's why, to all intents and purposes, Elfdalian for example is a dialect rather than a language, despite its linguistic uniqueness. And that's why Afrikaans on the one hand is a language in its own right and Flemish on the other hand isn't.


This is your definition, but other people have another view at the this issue. As said before, there is no consensus about the concept.

A very widespread and established interpretation of the word *dialect *is: a local variety of speech belonging to a larger linguistic continuum, mutually very well comprehensible with the neighbouring variations of speech (without sharp differences), and less comprehensible with non contingent variations. 

According to your definition Ainu is not a language, and Basque was not one under Franco regime.


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## Hans Molenslag

Ben Jamin said:


> According to your definition Ainu is not a language, and Basque was not one under Franco regime.


I should have clarified that I was referring to language varieties in a dialect continuum. The status of Ainu and Basque is totally unambiguous on linguistic grounds, as they are unrelated to their neighbouring languages. It would be absurd to call Basque a dialect of Spanish or French.


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## Hans Molenslag

Ben Jamin said:


> How would you assess the degree of mutual intelligiblity between Dutch and Flemish on one hand,


I don't know. What's the mutual intelligibility, say, between German and Austrian German, between English and Irish English, and between French and Belgian French? I for one have never met anyone from the Netherlands who didn't understand me or who I didn't understand when we both spoke our own flavour of standard Dutch.



> and Dutch/Flemish and Afrikaans on the other?


That's a totally different kettle of fish. There's an enormous geographical distance and quite a cultural gap. The vast majority of Dutch speakers never have any contact with Afrikaans speakers on a regular basis, and vice versa. When I tune in to an Afrikaans-language radio station, I can understand roughly 75%, enough to catch the general gist of a studio conversation or enough to follow a news broadcast. But a lot of words and expressions relating to typically South African things are lost on me.


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## Ben Jamin

Hans M. said:


> I don't know. What's the mutual intelligibility, say, between German and Austrian German, between English and Irish English, and between French and Belgian French? I for one have never met anyone from the Netherlands who didn't understand me or who I didn't understand when we both spoke our own flavour of standard Dutch.



That's what I expected. 



Hans M. said:


> That's a totally different kettle of fish. There's an enormous geographical distance and quite a cultural gap. The vast majority of Dutch speakers never have any contact with Afrikaans speakers on a regular basis, and vice versa. When I tune in to an Afrikaans-language radio station, I can understand roughly 75%, enough to catch the general gist of a studio conversation or enough to follow a news broadcast. But a lot of words and expressions relating to typically South African things are lost on me.


75% is only a little more than mutual comprehension between Italian and Spanish, and less than Between Czech and Slovak.


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## zhangjianjia

yes just as raumar said I do want to know how do Danish people pronounce the name as in the name of the director Martin Zandvliet 
sorry for not making myself clear
and thanks Segorian I'll go to the link


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## Ben Jamin

zhangjianjia said:


> yes just as raumar said I do want to know how do Danish people pronounce the name as in the name of the director Martin Zandvliet
> sorry for not making myself clear
> and thanks Segorian I'll go to the link


Do you know now?


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## zhangjianjia

yes i do now i was working on translating that name into chinese..
thanks everyone


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## Ben Jamin

zhangjianjia said:


> yes i do now i was working on translating that name into chinese..
> thanks everyone


Can you tell what the pronunciation is?


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## zhangjianjia

Ben Jamin said:


> Can you tell what the pronunciation is?


'sang(d)fliet'  sounds like this to me


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## Ben Jamin

zhangjianjia said:


> 'sang(d)fliet'  sounds like this to me


You mean sang-fli-et (three syllables) or sang-fleet (two syllables with "ee" like in "bee" in English)? Can you also hear the final "t"?


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## RondellB.

You can actually listen to the word at forvo.com, which is by the way a great site to hear correct pronounciations of basically every word in every language.


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## Stoggler

Every word in every language?  Hardly!  It's dependent on people making relevant recordings and so it requires people to make the effort.  A language like English or Spanish will have far more words on it than Danish or Scottish Gaelic, as I've discovered.

But it is a very good website and resource, nonetheless.


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## RondellB.

Yes, of course I exaggerated a little bit - or a huge bit. But in fact you will find the most relevant words of any somehow relevant language. I look up a lot there and it happens quite rarely that I do not find any recording.


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