# Finnish kaivaa, Persian kav, Latin cavō, Arabic kahf, ... "dig, cave"



## CyrusSH

Do they relate to each other?


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## Treaty

Persian _kāv_- is apparently from PIE *_skop/skobʰ_ (to cut, to work with a sharp thing). Latin _cav_- is from PIE *_ḱeue _(hole, to swell, cognate to Pers. _sūrāx_). Regarding Finnish _kaivaa_, it has many cognates in Finno-Ugric languages, pointing to a Proto-FU root (*_kajwa_). It has been proposed that the PFU word might have been borrowed from or to PIE (i.e. an uncertain PIE *_kaiu-rt, _unrelated to the above roots; see this paper).


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## CyrusSH

The more important meaning is "cave", of course it seems the Finnish word doesn't mean "cave" but "pit, well" which certainly relates to "digging" more than the Latin and Persian words, the fact is that caves are usually natural formations, Persian stem _kav_ also means "to explore, excavate, ransack, search", it is possible that ancient Persians dug to reach a natural underground cave.


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## berndf

The root meaning in Latin is _cavus _= _hollow_. A _cave _is _something that is hollow_ and the action verb _cavo _is _to make hollow_.


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## CyrusSH

Persian _kav_ also means "concave, cove", Finish _kovera_ has the same meaning, the English word _cove_ has a Germanic origin, the Arabic word for "cove" is _xur_, in Akkadian _ḫurru_ means "hollow, cave" (Compare to proto-Germanic *_xula_ "hollow", Avestan _sura_ "hollow" and Persian _kavak_ "hollow"). I think these words relate to each other.


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## berndf

If _cove_ is an inherited word from before Germanic, and it seems it is, any relation to _cave _is phonologically impossible and I can't see _hollow _as the core meaning.


CyrusSH said:


> I think these words relate to each other.


And I think you are collecting much too superficial similarities here.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> And I think you are collecting much too superficial similarities here.



The problem is that none of them is considered to be a loanword whereas we know these languages have borrowed many words from each other, of course "cave" seems to be among the oldest words which could exist in a language (our ancestors first lived in caves), so it is difficult to say which one is the original one.


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## CyrusSH

A question: Is _v_ a voiced labiodental fricative in all words that I mentioned? (Arabic _hf_ is but I doubt about the Latin word).


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## Sobakus

CyrusSH said:


> A question: Is _v_ a voiced labiodental fricative in all words that I mentioned? (Arabic _hf_ is but I doubt about the Latin word).


No, it's [w] in Proto-Finnic, PIE and Latin, labiodental approximant in modern Finnish.


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## CyrusSH

Sobakus said:


> No, it's [w] in Proto-Finnic, PIE and Latin, labiodental approximant in modern Finnish.



What do you mean by PIE?


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> A question: Is _v_ a voiced labiodental fricative in all words that I mentioned? (Arabic _hf_ is but I doubt about the Latin word).



The /f/ in kahf is voiceless.


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## Sobakus

CyrusSH said:


> What do you mean by PIE?


Proto-Indo-European, of course.


CyrusSH said:


> Persian _kav_ also means "concave, cove"


From the meaning "to spit, cleave" and unrelated to the root of _sūrāx_, _cavus_ etc. just from the first consonant alone. Perphaps related to Slavic _kopàti_ "dig", Gr. _kóptō _"strike, beat".


> the English word _cove_ has a Germanic origin


And originally meant "shack" as it still does on other Germanic languages. And it's unrelated to either the words with PIE /ḱ/ or with PIE /w/, so doubly unrelated to _cavus_.


> (Compare to proto-Germanic *_xula_ "hollow", Avestan _sura_ "hollow" and Persian _kavak_ "hollow").


The first two are related (r/n-extensions of the root _*ḱówH-_, c.f. Skt. _śūnyá-_ "empty, hollow"), the second obviously not.


> I think these words relate to each other.


Regardless of the fact that they obviously can't. Nothing new, then.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> The /f/ in kahf is voiceless.


 
Yes, because there is no [v] in Arabic but it has [w] (voiced labiovelar approximant).


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## CyrusSH

Sobakus said:


> Proto-Indo-European, of course.



I meant what PIE word, some different PIE words have been mentioned here.



> From the meaning "to spit, cleave" and unrelated to the root of _sūrāx_, _cavus_ etc. just from the first consonant alone. Perphaps related to Slavic _kopàti_ "dig", Gr. _kóptō _"strike, beat".



Persian _kav_ doesn't mean "to split, cleave" but _škaf_ means, look at this thread: Russian škaf "shelf", from Germanic or Iranian?


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## Sobakus

CyrusSH said:


> I meant what PIE word, some different PIE words have been mentioned here.


Whatever word _cavus _and its cognates come from, presumably _*ḱVwH-. _I'm not sure how the exact word is relevant here: I was answering which sound _v_ stands for, and it stands for [w] in every word.


> Persian _kav_ doesn't mean "to split, cleave" but _škaf_ means, look at this thread: Russian škaf "shelf", from Germanic or Iranian?


Some versions of Vasmer's Russian etymological dictionary mention N.Pers. _kāvaδ_ along with _kāfaδ_ "splits, cleaves (intrans.)" and _šikāftan_ "split, cleave". I don't see any conclusion to the origin of that initial _š_ in the thread you linked so it's not exactly enlightening.


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## Sobakus

In principle the initial _š _should be a straightforward development of PIE initial _sk- _(RUKI law) from the same root as _kopati_ with the so-called s-mobile as in Gr. _sképarnon _"carpenter's axe", Sl. _ščepa _"woodchip," _ščepàti _"to splinter, cleave". I'm not sure if the resulting _šk_ is normally retained in Persian though, or if there are other examples of forms with and without the š coexisting.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Yes, because there is no [v] in Arabic


Exactly. Therefore your statement "Arabic _hf_ is" here


CyrusSH said:


> A question: Is _v_ a voiced labiodental fricative in all words that I mentioned? (Arabic _hf_ is but I doubt about the Latin word).


is wrong.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Exactly. Therefore your statement "Arabic _hf_ is" here
> 
> is wrong.



Being voiced or voiceless doesn't matter, I actually meant the Arabic word probably relates to the Persian word, not Latin, because it has a labiodental fricative consonant.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Being voiced or voiceless doesn't matter


Of course it does. There are languages where  [f] and [v] are related and a language that has this feature _may_ be involved in a loaning or inheritance process. But it is something you have to prove (which language and which process in that language?), not just assume.


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## CyrusSH

Sobakus said:


> Some versions of Vasmer's Russian etymological dictionary mention N.Pers. _kāvaδ_ along with _kāfaδ_ "splits, cleaves (intrans.)" and _šikāftan_ "split, cleave". I don't see any conclusion to the origin of that initial _š_ in the thread you linked so it's not exactly enlightening.



Persian stems _kav_ and _kaf_ are similar but Persian dictionaries have also mentioned that they differ from each other: معنی کافتن | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


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## fdb

Sobakus said:


> In principle the initial _š _should be a straightforward development of PIE initial _sk- _(RUKI law)



The "ruki" law is responsible for s > š AFTER r, u, k, i etc.


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## Sobakus

fdb said:


> The "ruki" law is responsible for s > š AFTER r, u, k, i etc.


Thanks, I need to finally remember that. What could be the sources of West Iranian initial šk-?


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## CyrusSH

According to a Persian website Arabic _kahf_ means "man-made cave", in comparison with _maghara_ "natural cave" and both words have Parthian origin.

It says the story of _ashab al-kahf_ "people of the cave" in Christian and Islamic tradition has a Mithraic origin and they were followers of this religion who built their Mihraba (Mithraeum/Mihrab) in the man-made caves.


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## inquisitiveness1

CyrusSH said:


> According to a Persian website Arabic _kahf_ means "man-made cave", in comparison with _maghara_ "natural cave" and both words have Parthian origin.


I apologize if this is off-topic, but it is my understanding that Arabic مغارة _maɣāraẗ_ has both Hebrew cognate מערה _məʿarah_ (a word also found in the Torah) and an Ugaritic cognate  _mɣrt_, all meaning "cave" - so I don't think that Persian site could be correct in claiming a Parthian origin, as the word is attested in Semitic too early for Parthian influence (especially when you looks at Ugaritic).

As for Arabic كهف _kahf_, I don't know what the current ideas are for its etymology.


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## CyrusSH

inquisitiveness1 said:


> I apologize if this is off-topic, but it is my understanding that Arabic مغارة _maɣāraẗ_ has both Hebrew cognate מערה _məʿarah_ (a word also found in the Torah) and an Ugaritic cognate  _mɣrt_, all meaning "cave" - so I don't think that Persian site could be correct in claiming a Parthian origin, as the word is attested in Semitic too early for Parthian influence (especially when you looks at Ugaritic).
> 
> As for Arabic كهف _kahf_, I don't know what the current ideas are for its etymology.



What is the Semitic root of Arabic _maghara_? Avestan _magh_ means "hole".


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## momai

CyrusSH said:


> What is the Semitic root of Arabic _maghara_? Avestan _magh_ means "hole".


The root is (gh-w-r). The Meem is only a prefix.


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> What is the Semitic root of Arabic _maghara_?



γ-w-r “to be hollow”





CyrusSH said:


> Avestan _magh_ means "hole".



maγa-, but where does the -r- come from?


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## inquisitiveness1

CyrusSH said:


> What is the Semitic root of Arabic _maghara_? Avestan _magh_ means "hole".


The root is ɣ-w-r (in Arabic, the meaning is "to sink (in), hollow in, to depress (intrans); to be hollow; to penetrate"). The form _maɣāraẗ _is a very normal noun-of-location form derived from that second-weak root.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> maγa-, but where does the -r- come from?



The Persian suffix _-ār/-āl_ is almost the same as English/Latin _-ārium_: -arium - Wiktionary

1. A place associated with a specified thing.
2. A device associated with a specified function

Compare to Persian _goud_ "hollow" and _goudār_ "chasm, gorge", _goudāl_ "pit". (Also _changāl_ "fork", ...)


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> The Persian suffix _-ār/-āl_ is almost the same as English/Latin _-ārium_: -arium - Wiktionary


Are they cognates, 'almost' isn't good enough, is it?


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