# willy nilly



## mikael.toronto

I'm watching 'the office', and I don't get the meaning of 'willy nilly'.
Could someone help me with this one, in English.
Thanks.


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## Sedulia

"whether he likes it or not"


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## mjscott

mikael.toronto-

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Willy-nilly means to do something without any thought or effort put into it.

Example:
She was supposed to be in charge of the decorations, but she did it willy-nilly.
_She was supposed to be in charge of the decorations, but she only did a half-assed job._


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## gasman

> Willy-nilly means to do something without any thought or effort put into it.



I don't agree. The term means whether you think you have to or not, you will do whatever is required, as Sedulia wrote at the beginning


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## mtmjr

It means both:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/willy-nilly


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## Full Tilt Boogie

Willy Nilly

cf. pell-mell


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## gasman

> It means both:



A totally new concept to me.


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## Full Tilt Boogie

In British vernacular, it means 'all over the place', having no set plan and erratically.


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## Loob

It's new to me too, gasman.  Here's how the OED defines the term:

 _adv._ Whether it be with or against the will of the person or persons concerned; whether one likes it or not; willingly or unwillingly, _nolens volens_. 

_adj._ That is such, or that takes place, whether one will or no. 

It describes the use of willy-nilly to mean "undecided, shilly-shally" as 'erroneous'.


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## Dimcl

Loob said:


> It describes the use of willy-nilly to mean "undecided, shilly-shally" as 'erroneous'.


 
Strange, I've always used it to mean closer to MJScott's definition but not exactly.  To me, if someone is doing something "willy nilly", they're going from pillar to post.  They're rattling around, accomplishing nothing.  I always imagine someone rushing around an office, trying to look busy without actually _doing _anything.  They are rushing around "willy nilly".


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## Elwintee

Dimcl said:


> Strange, I've always used it to mean closer to MJScott's definition but not exactly.  To me, if someone is doing something "willy nilly", they're going from pillar to post.  They're rattling around, accomplishing nothing.  I always imagine someone rushing around an office, trying to look busy without actually _doing _anything.  They are rushing around "willy nilly".



It would be nice if we had a word to describe this rushing around idea, Dimcl, and perhaps one should be coined.  However willy-nilly has its own meaning, which I firmly believe to be the 'whether he wants to or not' idea.  Surely it comes from the good Old English method of negating with an 'n', but in a playful way: ever/never, either/neither, will (he)/nill (he)?


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## mjscott

It is a PUN. The woman is good looking in the scene. A couple of men made comments that could be taken either way. When someone said something that became directly inappropriate, the boss sent the man out of the meeting. He then used the same euphemism for her private parts as the offending party, saying that no one was going to be checking out her (euphemism) willy-nilly.

Willy-nilly - haphazardly
willy- euphemism for a penis


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## Loob

This is the context in which Ricky Gervais' character uses "willy-nilly" in in "The Office".

Someone has made a slightly off-colour joke about a policeman's daughter who has joined the staff: "I wouldn't mind escaping up her tunnel".

He is sent out of the room, and Ricky Gervais says "I will not have her tunnel bandied around this office willy-nilly".

"Willy-nilly" clearly here means something like "indiscriminately": a meaning which, I see, is allowed by the WRF dictionary, though it's not one that's familiar to me.

EDIT: sorry, mjscott, I hadn't seen your post when I wrote this. I think we're agreeing on what the word must mean. I don't see it as a pun, though.  A typically-embarrassing David Brent choice of words, maybe


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## mjscott

Interesting....
....I thought of it as British humor--the way you Brits spice up language in such low-key words and puns that they either go unnoticed, or they make you take a doubletake, then laugh....
I'm thinknig the line was not put willy-nilly into the script!


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## Loob

Sorry, mjscott, I was being unclear.  I don't think the _character_ is punning.  But I do think the scriptwriters put the double-entendre in there deliberately


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## JamesM

Elwintee said:


> It would be nice if we had a word to describe this rushing around idea, Dimcl, and perhaps one should be coined. However willy-nilly has its own meaning, which I firmly believe to be the 'whether he wants to or not' idea. Surely it comes from the good Old English method of negating with an 'n', but in a playful way: ever/never, either/neither, will (he)/nill (he)?


 
The reference that mtmjr provided shows both meanings:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/willy-nilly 

Does anyone have access to the OED to see if the other meaning is _not_ listed there?  That would be interesting.


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## Loob

See post 8, James

The meaning _disorganised/unplanned/haphazard_ etc is not listed in the OED entry for willy-nilly.


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## mtmjr

For what it's worth, I've _always_ heard "willy-nilly" used as "haphazardly".  In fact, I didn't even know it meant anything else until now.


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## Broccolicious

How interesting - I've always understood it to mean that something is done in a haphazard or arbitrary way, or without much thought. For example, in This senTencE i'Ve used CapITal Letters willy-nilly.

But now it appears I've been using 'willy-nilly' willy-nilly. Except not. Gaaah!


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## bibliolept

Usually, M-W is the first choice I consult. Very often it lists multiple definitions. Its entry for willy-nilly, which WestSideGal linked above, is:


> Function:    adverb or adjective
> Etymology:    alteration of will I nill I or will ye nill ye or will he nill he Date:     16081 : by compulsion : without choice
> 2 : in a haphazard or spontaneous manner


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/willy+nilly

Personally, I've always understood it to mean haphazard. I love the phrase even though I don't use it much; it's a great example of reduplication.


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## redgiant

I take it from the posts so far that willy nilly can be readily understood as meaning "haphazard". Would anyone please read the following example I just made up and see if "willy nilly" makes sense to you:

A mother wants his kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He should address people with respect. He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.


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## Elwintee

My Shorter Oxford English Dictionary is quite clear.  The BE meaning (since about 1608) has been "Will I, nill I (he, ye)", equating to "Whether I want to or not".  There is no mention of any 'haphazard' alternative meaning.
I personally would use the phrase in a sentence such as "I'm told I have to take my driving test this Friday, willy nilly, despite the fact that it's my wedding day".


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## ewie

How odd ~ it's always meant _haphazardly_ to me too, as far as I know.

I think, RG, given that this means completely different things to different people, it might be one to avoid.

_However_, I wouldn't actually use 'haphazardly' in your sentence: I'd say _all over the place_ or _left, right and centre_.


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## JustKate

It's always meant "haphazardly" to me, too. Huh.

I also agree that _haphazardly_ is not the perfect word to use. How about _indiscriminately_?


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## redgiant

Thanks~ Mother: Stop _indiscriminately _calling people "dude", okay?

Does "indiscriminately_"_ work in my example in #21? 
I've come across "indiscriminately" being used in contexts of inflicting harm upon people, like:_ indiscriminate use of chemicals/ indiscriminately swinging a bat/ an act of indiscriminate killing_

Do you think it might sound too serious for the context?


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## JustKate

Oh, no - _indescriminately_ doesn't have an automatically serious connotation. Just to see what happened, I picked a light-hearted verb - _hugged_ - and googled "hugged indescriminately." I found lots of listings. It's a thoroughly neutral word, so it can be used in pretty much any context.

By the way, I looked up "willy-nilly" in _The Shorter OED_ (2002 edition), and under the first definition for the adverb, it says "whether one likes it or not; willingly or unwillingly. Also, haphazardly, anyhow, at random." I don't know why this doesn't agree with your edition, Elwintee, but that is exactly what it says in mine. Perhaps I have a later edition. Or maybe the OED has separate editions for AmE or BE? I wasn't aware of this but I could be wrong.


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## PaulQ

redgiant said:


> A mother wants her kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He should address people with respect. He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.


That seems to me to be a perfect use.

To me, the "whether or not he wishes" meaning is excessively formal and old-fashioned, as it relies on the knowledge of the Latin. That said, I would not be surprised if that meaning were used by, for example, a High Court judge giving judgement.


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## cabbageweevil

I've always used the expression in the sense of "enforcedly -- whether one wants to or not"; having in mind the cited old-fashioned English "will he, nill he".

Wandering a bit topic-wise; but isn't there a character called Willy Nilly, in Dylan Thomas's "Under Milk Wood"? (A rather feeble chap, IIRC). And on another message board (different subject) which I frequent, there's a rather splendidly forthright and opinionated poster who uses Willy Nilly as their "handle".


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## PaulQ

The Phrase Finder website http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/willy-nilly.html is helpful 





> This term has two, slightly differing, but related meanings: 'whether it is with or against your will' and 'in an unplanned, haphazard fashion'. We tend to use the latter of these meanings today; the former was the accepted meaning when the term was first coined.
> 
> 
> ...The early meaning of the word nill is key to this. In early English nill was the opposite of will a contraction of 'ne will'. That is, will meant to want to do something, nill meant to want to avoid it.
> 
> 
> 1. Aelfric's Lives of Saints, circa 1000: "Forean the we synd synfulle and sceolan beon eadmode, wille we, nelle we."
> 2. The Taming of the Shrew:
> Petruchio: [To Katharina]
> 
> 
> Thus in plain terms: your father hath consented
> That you shall be my wife; your dowry 'greed on;
> And, Will you, nill you, I will marry you.


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## ewie

PaulQ said:


> That seems to me to be a perfect use.


It certainly doesn't to me, as I said earlier.  The problem with the kid in RedGiant's case isn't that he calls people _dude _haphazardly/randomly_, _but that he calls 
"people he doesn't know or older than him" _dude_, which, given that to a kid most people are either strangers or elders (and often both), is to say pretty much _systematically_, hence my choice of _all over the place_ or_ left, right and centre_.

Wow that was dull to write.


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## Packard

I know I have heart "willy-nilly" to mean haphazardly, but I am certain I've never heard it to mean "against ones will".  Is this a BE usage?


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## ewie

Did you read posts #1-30 in this thread, MrP?  (Rhetorical question.)


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## Packard

ewie said:


> Did you read posts #1-30 in this thread, MrP? (Rhetorical question.)


I re-read posts #1 - #30.   The TV show is American.  The dictionaries cited all seem to be British.  The question still stands.  Is "against my will" connotation ever used in AE (clearly not in use at "The Office").


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## PaulQ

ewie said:


> It certainly doesn't to me, as I said earlier.  The problem with the kid in RedGiant's case isn't that he calls people _dude _haphazardly/randomly_, _but that he calls
> "people he doesn't know or older than him" _dude_, which, given that to a kid most people are either strangers or elders (and often both), is to say pretty much _systematically_, hence my choice of _all over the place_ or_ left, right and centre_.
> 
> Wow that was dull to write.


So you would see, _"You shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly. It's a matter of politeness , not of preference!"_ as wrong or unusual?


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## pwmeek

Packard said:


> [...] The question still stands.  Is "against my will" connotation ever used in AE (clearly not in use at "The Office").



AE- To me is is always "will ye/nil ye" (you must do it, no matter what your inclination). 

On the rare(ish) occasions where the context shows that it is being used to mean all over the place or haphazardly, it always "jolts" me.


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## ewie

PaulQ said:


> _"You shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly. It's a matter of politeness , not of preference!"_


Who said this?


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## PaulQ

redgiant said:


> A mother wants his kid to stop going around calling people he doesn't know or older than him "dude". He shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly/haphazardly . It's a matter of politeness , not of preference.


Originally Posted by *PaulQ* 
_"You shouldn't call people "dude" willy nilly. It's a matter of politeness , not of preference!"_


ewie said:


> Who said this?


I assume it is the mother...


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## JamesM

I always assume the meaning "in a haphazard manner" unless something makes it very clear it has the other meaning.

A few examples of the "haphazard" meaning:

http://www.comedymoontower.com/?p=2727
As accustomed as some Austinites have become to hailing musicians and filmmakers before comedians, the Moontower Comedy and Oddity Festival just might change the natural order of things in the city. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if during the festival we have plants growing at night, chickens laying eggs willy-nilly, and roosters crowing long before the dawn.

http://www.tmz.com/2012/06/20/alec-baldwin-attack-photog-courthouse-cbs-early-show/
"People think I'm out there just decking photographers willy-nilly, nothing could be further from the truth."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/30/news/la-pn-obama-drones-google-interview-20120130
"This thing is kept on a very tight leash," Obama said. The U.S. does not use drones "willy nilly" but in a way that avoids more intrusive military actions, he said.


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## Myridon

Packard said:


> ...  but I am certain I've never heard it to mean "against ones will" ...


There is a subtle but important difference between the original meaning "whether you will or will not" and "against your will".
For example, it "rains whether you will it or will it not", but it doesn't rain "against your will".


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## zaffy

ewie said:


> How odd ~ it's always meant _haphazardly_ to me too, as far as I know.


I thought it was an AE/BE thing with BE using it as "whether you like it or not", and now I'm surprised. I've gone through the posts and looks like most of you use/know only one meaning. Just checked it up in most popular dictionaries and they all indeed say there two meanings.


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## Uncle Jack

zaffy said:


> I've gone through the posts and looks like most of you use/know only one meaning.


That is probably true (and for me it is the carelessly meaning) but I imagine that many or most of us "willy-nilly = carelessly" speakers also recognise the use of "willy-nilly" meaning whether you want to or not, if it is presented in the correct context. I certainly do, and "He found himself drawn, willy-nilly, into the argument" from Longman sounds fine to me. Quite likely the opposite is not true, because the carelessly meaning doesn't often make it into print.

I think that one difference might be that we "willy-nilly = carelessly" speakers actually use the expression in everyday speech. I wonder how many "whether you want to or not" speakers actually use the expression. I don't recall often reading or hearing it.


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## Packard

This article discusses the origin and etymology of "willy-nilly" in some detail.

The Grammarphobia Blog: On 'willy-nilly'


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## zaffy

Packard said:


> This article discusses the origin and etymology of "willy-nilly" in some detail.


And which meaning do you personally use?


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## Myridon

If I insert the "normal" meaning into the example sentences given for the other meaning in #40, it doesn't raise any red flags for me.  There's nothing there that would make me think I had misunderstood the sentence especially when reading at a normal speed (not reading it word for word as if I'm trying to translate it to another language).  It's possible I've read many sentences in which the author had that meaning in mind and I just assumed the "normal" meaning and nothing was really lost.


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## Packard

zaffy said:


> And which meaning do you personally use?


The only meaning I have ever used for this or ever heard for this (until this thread) was "haphazardly".  

I am more likely to use "helter-skelter".


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## Aidanr444

I've always understood "willy-nilly" to mean "done without consideration when consideration is expected".

I can see how the "whether you like it or not" usage arises and would understand it in context but wouldn't normally volunteer this. I quite like it, I might try it! It is such fun to say. I will go around saying it willy-nilly for the rest of today.


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## zaffy

This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right? 

_And then somehow it evolved into a tool where cops, not just in New York, would just approach people and pat them down nilly-willy. _

*

*


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## Keith Bradford

Loob said:


> ...The meaning _disorganised/unplanned/haphazard_ etc is not listed in the OED entry for willy-nilly.


It is in my 1964 edition, but marked _erroneous_.


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## Keith Bradford

zaffy said:


> This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right?


Who can tell?  We only have that one phrase to go from and we need the previous context.


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## Uncle Jack

zaffy said:


> This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right?
> 
> _And then somehow it evolved into a tool where cops, not just in New York, would just approach people and pat them down nilly-willy._


Yes, I think so. But who is it referring to, I wonder? One would assume that the people being patted down would never want this to happen, so it makes little sense for "willy nilly" to refer to them. Could it refer to the police officers?


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## zaffy

Keith Bradford said:


> Who can tell? We only have that one phrase to go from and we need the previous context.


He said that in the 60s there was a Stop and Frisk rule, which enabled officers to frisk people if they thought they might be invlolved in a crime. But then that rule "evolved to a tool" and police officers started to misuse it, thinking they could pat down anyone willy-nilly. So I don't think 'carelessly' is meant.


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## Packard

zaffy said:


> This man is talking about issues with officers patting people down. Now, here "will nilly" means "whether people like it or not", right?
> 
> _And then somehow it evolved into a tool where cops, not just in New York, would just approach people and pat them down nilly-willy. _
> 
> *View attachment 61333*


I think this means "without rhyme or reason".  The police are patting down blacks without cause just because of how they look.

Note:  Crossed posts with Zaffy.


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## Packard

Stop and Frisk was a New York Police Department phrase.  Elsewhere it is called a "Terry Stop" after the Supreme Court decision in Terry v. Ohio in 1968.  (I had to look up the date).  

So this started sometime in 1969 and was common practice throughout the 1970s and 1980s.  At some time in that period it was labeled "racial profiling" and fell in disrepute.

On Long Island, a "seatbelt violation" was a substitute.  Cops could stop someone for not wearing a shoulder harness and then search the vehicle.  Later, seatbelt violations were no longer acceptable reasons for stopping a car.  They had to be stopped for something else and the seatbelt violation could be added on.


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## kentix

Packard said:


> I think this means "without rhyme or reason".




I would call this standard American usage. Not this specific scenario, but the general idea. They don't have rigorous standards in deciding on who and when to initiate a pat down procedure. It's somewhat random and based on whim.

Although, you _can see _how the other, "willing or not", definition is hiding down in there somewhere. I had never heard of that use before and my first reaction was they were totally different, but this example shows the connection. They are subjected to something you wouldn't normally expect them to approve of, due to the haphazard application of an idea/procedure.


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## zaffy

Packard said:


> I think this means "without rhyme or reason".





kentix said:


> I would call this standard American usage.



That's interesting. So is that a third meaning of that phrase?


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## kentix

No, it's the haphazard meaning.

Their choice of who to pat down is haphazard.


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## Packard

zaffy said:


> That's interesting. So is that a third meaning of that phrase?


"Without rhyme or reason" pretty much means "in a haphazard way".  So not too far off from the same meaning.

Crossed posts with Kentix.  We appear to be on the same page.


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## analeeh

kentix said:


> I would call this standard American usage. Not this specific scenario, but the general idea. They don't have rigorous standards in deciding on who and when to initiate a pat down procedure. It's somewhat random and based on whim.


It's standard UK usage too.


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## zaffy

And how about this example? Is that the ‘haphazard’ or the ‘whether we like or not’ one? He is talking about the rising popularity of reality shows on TV.

_That blur between what’s real and what’s not is pumped into media stream willy-nilly. There are now more reality shows on TV than there were shows on TV 20 years ago.




_


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## kentix

To be honest, the sentence doesn't actually make sense. A blur can't be pumped in.

But in general I would take it as the haphazard meaning.

(But then, that's the only one I've ever heard used regularly.)


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## Uncle Jack

"Without control" was one of the dictionary definitions quoted earlier.


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## Loob

Keith Bradford said:


> Loob said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... The meaning _disorganised/unplanned/haphazard_ etc is not listed in the OED entry for willy-nilly.
> 
> 
> 
> It is in my 1964 edition, but marked _erroneous_.
Click to expand...


Interesting - compare my 


Loob said:


> [the OED] describes the use of willy-nilly to mean "undecided, shilly-shally" as 'erroneous'.


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## Packard

I rarely year "willy-nilly" in the USA.  I can't recall hearing "shilly-shally", though it sounds vaguely familiar.


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## heypresto

This is all very curious. I've only ever thought it had the what's here being called the 'haphazard' meaning, but my Chambers Dictionary, says:

adverb

1. Willing or unwilling, whether one wishes or not
2. Compulsorily, inevitably
3. Haphazardly


adjective

1. Having no choice
2. Being so, or occurring, willy-nilly
3. Vacillating (non-standard)
4. Haphazard


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## Packard

Dictionaries reflect usage.  My understanding is that the further down on the list, the lower the usage.  I know that they add words to the dictionary based on usage.  I do wonder how they derive the data that drives that decision.  

In any case, if they list it by frequency of usage, then the list seems entirely reversed to me.


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## Loob

Well, at least one thing's clear - none of us uses it in the "erroneous"/"non-standard" sense of _undecided _or_ vacillating_.


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## heypresto

If that means we all agree on something, that in itself is something.


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## velisarius

I didn't know about the "haphazard" meaning at all. I thought that other people, while liking the sound of the phrase, just didn't know its precise meaning, so that they seem to use it "willy nilly".


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## Myridon

Packard said:


> Dictionaries reflect usage.  My understanding is that the further down on the list, the lower the usage.


A few dictionaries put the oldest meanings first.


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## S1m0n

There's a key difference between willy-nilly and similar sounding terms like shilly-shally or pell-mell. The latter two are examples of rhyming reduplication, a common process by which can be 'stretched' or extended by adding a repetitive rhymed or assonant variant.
Willy-nilly, however, is not rhyming reduplication. It is the good old Anglo-Saxon word _willan_, [be willing, wish, desire] coupled with the Anglo-Saxon _ne_ negator, which can either stand on its own as a word or become a prefix [_n~_] that negates the word that follows. It's the same process that created 'neither' from 'either'.
So, the 'willingly or unwillingly' definition is the core meaning, and the 'haphazard' definition is misuse.


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## kentix

I think you mispronounced "newer use".


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## heypresto

I really don't think I've been misusing it, mishearing it, or misunderstanding it for 60-odd years.


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## zaffy

I just came across this example. The guy recording a police parking lot was detained. He claimed it was an unlawful detaintment and he adressed the cop saying "Listen, you just can't detain people willy-nilly". That means "haphazardly" again, right?


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## Uncle Jack

zaffy said:


> I just came across this example. The guy recording a police parking lot was detained. He claimed it was an unlawful detaintment and he adressed the cop saying "Listen, you just can't detain people willy-nilly". That means "haphazardly" again, right?
> 
> View attachment 61460


I don't think we can tell without knowing more about the situation.


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## zaffy

Uncle Jack said:


> I don't think we can tell without knowing more about the situation.


He was detained for taking pictures near the police headquarters. He was angry as he was not doing anything illegal and wanted to speak to the supervisor. The police officer in the screenshot is the supervisor who dismissed the police officers who had detained him. And the cameraman told him: "Listen, you just can't detain people willy-nilly".


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## heypresto

And note the subtitles are wrong.  

But I guess 'just detain people' and 'just attain people' do sound almost identical.


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## kentix

In this case, I would say willy-nilly means without specific good, legally justified reasons.

In other words, he thinks it is being done on a whim and not based on any objective criteria.


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## Myridon

What would it be using the other meaning?
"You can't detain people whether you want to or not." 
"You can't detain people whether they want to or not."
or something else.
Obviously, I can't detain people just because I want to, but I also can't detain people because I don't want to? I'm confused.


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## Roxxxannne

I use it in the 'whether you want to or not' sense only: "Young lady, you have to do your homework right now willy nilly, no matter who's on Ed Sullivan."


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## heypresto

Roxxxannne said:


> I use it in the 'whether you want to or not' sense only: "Young lady, you have to do your homework right now willy nilly, no matter who's on Ed Sullivan."


Wow, that's really fascinating.  I've honestly never come across this usage before.


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## kentix

Before I read this thread I would have found that sentence very confusing.

[I would have checked that you didn't get your dosages wrong. ]


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## Roxxxannne

heypresto said:


> Wow, that's really fascinating.  I've honestly never come across this usage before.


And I'm fascinated to see  that no one else (if I read all the comments correctly) uses it in the "whether you like it or not" sense, which is right there in the WR dictionaries, of all places.


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## Keith Bradford

Roxxxannne said:


> And I'm fascinated to see  that *no one else* (if I read all the comments correctly) uses it in the "whether you like it or not" sense, which is right there in the WR dictionaries, of all places.


No one else?  Not true.  But you all seemed to be having such fun arguing about this that I didn't want to butt in.

But of course _will he, nill he (_Latin _nolens volens) => willy-nilly _has equalled_ *whether he wants to or not*_. for the past 400 years.  The misuse other use with the meaning _higgledy-piggledy_ is OK for people who haven't come across _helter-skelter, slipshod, hugger-mugger, slapdash, confusedly, indiscriminately _and all the other dozens of perfectly good alternatives.


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## Uncle Jack

And there was me thinking that a hugger-mugger was someone who robbed unsuspecting courting couples while their attention was on other things.

"Helter-skelter" has now been mentioned at least twice in this thread, yet I have never heard it being used to mean confusion. I have only known it to mean at high speed, but of course what it really is is a superior kind of children's slide. How I loved them when I was a boy:


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## Loob

Roxxxannne said:


> And I'm fascinated to see  that no one else (if I read all the comments correctly) uses it in the "whether you like it or not" sense, which is right there in the WR dictionaries, of all places.


I think several of us have said we use or understand it that way.

This thread has been enlightening!


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## kentix

Helter Skelter is pretty firmly associated with Charles Manson in this country. He was the famously psychotic leader of a murderous cult. He used the term as part of his ideology (based on lyrics in a Beatles song) and a very famous book about him and his activities had that as the title. It doesn't conjure up images of fair rides here. 

But it does get used as an adjective now and then, both for speed and disorganization. I think the second is a consequence of Charles Manson, probably, and what he did with the term.


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## Roxxxannne

Loob said:


> I think several of us have said we use or understand it that way.
> 
> This thread has been enlightening!


I can't read until I've had my coffee, but that doesn't prevent me from thinking I can.


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## slideman

mikael.toronto said:


> I'm watching 'the office', and I don't get the meaning of 'willy nilly'.
> Could someone help me with this one, in English.
> Thanks.


It is changing over time. The older meaning is “Whether I/you/they like it or not”. The other meanings are more recent, are becoming more common, and are probably more common in US than in UK. It can therefore be ambiguous.


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## heypresto

All I can say is that I've never, in all my 60-odd years of speaking BE known or heard any meaning other than the 'haphazard' one. This thread, to quote Loob, has been enlightening!


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