# evitar que



## louhevly

Greetings, and I hope you are all having a very pleasant weekend.

Question 1: How would you translate these in English?

Hem evitat que s'obrís un nou carrer en aquest punt.
Hem evitat que el Betis s'emporti els tres punts.

The best I can do is: "We have prevented a new street from being opened at this point" and "We've prevented Betis from (taking away/making off with) the three points". 

Question 2: Can you think of any other cases in which a Catalan subordinate clause is translated with the "from + gerund" construction?

Thanks in advance!

Lou


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## TraductoraPobleSec

What about *"We've managed to avoid the opening of a new street"* and *"We've managed to avoid Betis from taking away three points".*

Goodness! These are hard to translate for a non native, Lou!!! But anyway, thanks for putting my brain to work and sending me back to my days by the Puget Sound!


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## ajohan

Question 1 Good translations I reckon. Perhaps when 'el punt' is physical rather than in time, I would consider 'spot'. they use '(accident) blackspot' for 'punt negre'.
Question 2 I suppose any English verb with the construction VERB + from + ING. there are not many of them but off the top of my head the verb 'discourage' comes to mind as in 'He was discouraged from driving drunk'. However, I can't think of one with the passive meaning you came up with, with the verb 'prevent' because you don't normally discourage people from having things done to them, if you get my gist, or we use another construction.


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> What about *"We've managed to avoid the opening of a new street"* and *"We've managed to avoid Betis from taking away three points".*


Good job.  I've also thought of:

We've kept them from opening...
We've kept Betis from taking away...

It's the "from + gerund" structure that intrigues me.  Here's a couple more:

Money frees you from doing what you don't like.
We stopped them from doing what they shouldn't.



TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Goodness! These are hard to translate for a non native, Lou!!! But anyway, thanks for putting my brain to work and sending me back to my days by the Puget Sound!



Well, right now it's raining, so that should help strengthen the memories ;-).


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## ajohan

TPS, I don't think that second effort is quite right (avoid+OBJ+from+ING). We normally avoid doing things but prevent things from happening or prevent people from doing things. More colloquially, and arguably wrong for some people, you sometimes hear 'They stopped them building the new motorway' (as a translation of 'impedir') but a purist would say it's sub-standard. Also perhaps it's not quite the same because 'stop' implies that construction has started and has been stopped.
Cheers


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## TraductoraPobleSec

ajohan said:


> TPS, I don't think that second effort is quite right (avoid+OBJ+ING).


 
Do you mean my second sentence, Ajohan?


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## ajohan

Yeah, the second one. I per cert, quan parlo català o castellà tinc problems per expressar  "His parents discouraged him from getting into bad company"
Com ho feu?


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Do you mean my second sentence, Ajohan?



Sorry, TPS, I missed that; you can say "We've managed to *prevent* Betis from taking away three points" but not "avoid".  You can sort of say "We've managed to avoid Betis (or Betis's) taking away three points" but it doesn't sound as natural to me.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

Salvador Oliva and Angela Buxton (dicc. anglès-cat. Enciclopèdia Catalana) translate it as "*Dissuadir*".

*"Els seus pares el van dissuadir d'ajuntar-se amb certes companyies".* The thing, though, is that we do not use the verb *dissuadir* that much (in spite of being really nice!) *Aconsellar* could also be used in this case, although the meaning changes somehow... It is not as strong as *dissuadir*. 

See what our other fellow forum users have to say about this!


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## TraductoraPobleSec

louhevly said:


> Sorry, TPS, I missed that; you can say "We've managed to *prevent* Betis from taking away three points" but not "avoid". You can sort of say "We've managed to avoid Betis (or Betis's) taking away three points" but it doesn't sound as natural to me.


 
Sorry, guys, I don't mean to be a "pain", but, why _prevent_ would work but not _avoid_? Why does _avoid_ work in the first example?

Mamma mia! Yes, Lou, I should get myself one of those cheap Ryanair tickets to Luton...


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## louhevly

ajohan said:


> Yeah, the second one. I per cert, quan parlo català o castellà tinc problems per expressar  "His parents discouraged him from getting into bad company"
> Com ho feu?



Both "encourage" and "discourage" are sometimes difficult to translate elegantly. Here's my try, but it isn't very idiomatic:

El dissuadia de ficar-se amb mala companyia.

Note that this isn't a subordinate construction.


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## ajohan

When I teach, I use 'dissuadir' to explain it but I'm never that convinced and neither are my pupils perhaps because they'd probably say 'li van aconsellar/dir que no ...... but discourage does seem to be pretty frequent in English.


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## ajohan

The thing is TPS, 'avoid' doesn't really work in the first example either. Since I discovered concordancing and then later Google, I've been more into meaning in context than dictionary definitions of words so here goes.
We avoid something (with the meaning of 'esquivar' - is that Catalan?)
We avoid doing something (make an effort not to do it)
We prevent something from happening
We prevent people from doing something
And an occurrence can prevent people from doing things or things from happening too.
Hope that's clear.
Lovely to discuss this but something important's starting at eight


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## TraductoraPobleSec

ajohan said:


> When I teach, I use 'dissuadir' to explain it but I'm never that convinced and neither are my pupils perhaps because they'd probably say 'li van aconsellar/dir que no ...... but discourage does seem to be pretty frequent in English.


 
Exactly, *aconsellar* is what we usually go for. As for *encourage*, Lou, I usually translate it as *animar*. I don't find it as tricky as *discourage*...

*I was encouraged to take that job.*
*Em van animar que agafés/a agafar aquella feina.*

And note that both encourage and discourage can be translated as *aconsellar:*

*He encouraged me to write a book: Em va aconsellar que escrivís un llibre.*
*He discouraged me from writing a book: Em va aconsellar que no escrivís cap llibre.*

Do you share my view?


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## ajohan

One quick thing then; where does the verb 'encoratjar' fit into all this?


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## TraductoraPobleSec

ajohan said:


> (with the meaning of 'esquivar' - is that Catalan?)
> 
> Lovely to discuss this but something important's starting at seven


 

Yes, esquivar does exist in Catalan: http://ec.grec.net/lexicx.jsp?GECART=0058423

What is starting at seven  ? A soccer game, I bet! You guys...


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## TraductoraPobleSec

ajohan said:


> One quick thing then; where does the verb 'encoratjar' fit into all this?


It's a synonym of _animar_, though not as widely used. Tell us tomorrow (or later) whether it was soccer what you were so excited for!


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Sorry, guys, I don't mean to be a "pain", but, why _prevent_ would work but not _avoid_? Why does _avoid_ work in the first example?



"We've managed to avoid/prevent the opening of a new street" is fine because the object is a noun: "opening".

Now then, the object in the second sentence is a "noun + preposition + gerund" construction; you can "prevent someone from doing", but you can't "avoid someone from doing".  That's just the nature of the verbs. Like "hope" and "want": "I hope that he comes" and "I want him to come". You can't say ?? I hope him to come or ?? I want that he comes.

Isn't English fun?



TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Mamma mia! Yes, Lou, I should get myself one of those cheap Ryanair tickets to Luton...



I'm right behind ya'...


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## TraductoraPobleSec

louhevly said:


> Isn't English fun?


 
I adore it! Studying (and "living") a language brings one's mind to life...


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Exactly, *aconsellar* is what we usually go for. As for *encourage*, Lou, I usually translate it as *animar*. I don't find it as tricky as *discourage*...
> 
> *I was encouraged to take that job.*
> *Em van animar que agafés/a agafar aquella feina.*



I agree, "animar" is very good for "encourage".



TraductoraPobleSec said:


> And note that both encourage and discourage can be translated as *aconsellar:*
> 
> *He encouraged me to write a book: Em va aconsellar que escrivís un llibre.*
> *He discouraged me from writing a book: Em va aconsellar que no escrivís cap llibre.*
> 
> Do you share my view?



I would say there was a difference in English between "He encouraged me to write a book" (animar) and "He advised me to write a book" (aconsellar).


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## TraductoraPobleSec

louhevly said:


> I agree, "animar" is very good for "encourage".
> 
> 
> 
> I would say there was a difference in English between "He encouraged me to write a book" (animar) and "He advised me to write a book" (aconsellar).


 
Same in Catalan, actually! There certainly is a slight difference...

Would the adverb *strongly* go well with *encourage*? For some reason, it does not sound right to my ears, whereas you can hear all the time _to *strongly *advise_.

I see you are more interested in grammar than in soccer, Lou!


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## louhevly

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Same in Catalan, actually! There certainly is a slight difference...
> 
> Would the adverb *strongly* go well with *encourage*? For some reason, it does not sound right to my ears, whereas you can hear all the time _to *strongly *advise_.



Google: 1,040,000 for "strongly encourage".
Google: 1,250,000 for "strongly advise".

So I guess they are both fine.



TraductoraPobleSec said:


> I see you are more interested in grammar than in soccer, Lou!



Indeed!


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## TraductoraPobleSec

louhevly said:


> Google: 1,040,000 for "strongly encourage".
> Google: 1,250,000 for "strongly advise".


 
Thanks, Lou.


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## TraductoraPobleSec

louhevly said:


> We've kept them from opening...
> We've kept Betis from taking away...
> 
> It's the "from + gerund" structure that intrigues me.


 
Hi, guys!

I was browsing through my Moby Dick trying to find a word I once marked (_doubloons_) and found that when I first read it I had underlined the following: *"GOD KEEP ME FROM EVER COMPLETING ANYTHING"*. I thought of you and this thread inmediately!  But don't call me Ishmael!


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## ernest_

louhevly said:


> Question 2: Can you think of any other cases in which a Catalan subordinate clause is translated with the "from + gerund" construction?



A veure si et serveixen aquestes:

"We *know from going* into schools that the kids as young as 12 are in MySpace."

Sabem, d'haver anat a escoles, que hi ha nens de només 12 anys a MySpace. 

"Men and women *learn from making* mistakes"

"Els homes i les dones aprenen dels errors."


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## louhevly

ernest_ said:


> A veure si et serveixen aquestes:
> 
> "We *know from going* into schools that the kids as young as 12 are in MySpace."
> 
> Sabem, d'haver anat a escoles, que hi ha nens de només 12 anys a MySpace.
> 
> "Men and women *learn from making* mistakes"
> 
> "Els homes i les dones aprenen dels errors."



Thanks, but they aren't *subordinate* clauses.  I'm studying the translation into English of subjunctive verbs in Catalan subordinate clauses and have found only one instance, that with the verb "evitar", in which the translation was a "from + gerund" structure.

Vam evitar que es fes.
We prevented it from being done.

Vam evitar que ho fessin.
We prevented them from doing it.

I'm "cada vegada més segur" that this is the only case where this happens.


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## ajohan

Lou
What about the following verbs in English: save, ban, bar, hold back, put off, protect and deter? All these take VERB+from+ing. Some have standard translations like prohibir que + SUB, while once again the 'uncomfortable' verb 'dissuadir' is a candidate for translation of a couple of them.
And yes, TPS, it was a footy match (not any old one mind you). 

So it seems we have 'impedir', 'evitar', 'dissuadir'. 'prohibir' and who knows what else.

EDIT
I és curiós que tots aquests verbs són semànticament semblants. Tenen a veure amb 'obstaculitzar' d'alguna manera o altra. Suposo que és perquè la preposició anglesa 'from' és la de procedència i pretenem d'alguna manera allunyar el nostre interlocutor DE certes activitats.


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## louhevly

ajohan said:


> So it seems we have 'impedir', 'evitar', 'dissuadir'. 'prohibir' and who knows what else.
> 
> EDIT
> I és curiós que tots aquests verbs són semànticament semblants. Tenen a veure amb 'obstaculitzar' d'alguna manera o altra. Suposo que és perquè la preposició anglesa 'from' és la de procedència i pretenem d'alguna manera allunyar el nostre interlocutor DE certes activitats.



Thanks Ajohan.  Those four verbs are definitely what I was looking for.


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## ajohan

And another 'from .........ing' structure could be 'refrain from ........ing'
Es prega als alumnes que s'abstinguin de fumar durant .........
(o 'que no fumin')
Students are requested to refrain from smoking during .........

This is a bit different, mind you, because the Catalan subjunctive comes in the subordinate part after 'pregar', demanar' or 'sol.licitar'.


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