# count / account



## ThomasK

There seems to be a link between telling (_an account_) and counting, based on enumeration.  See also: _tellen, vertellen_ in Dutch, _zählen/ erzählen_ in German, and in some North Germanic languages like Danish, _compter/ conter_ in French. 

But is it also the case in other languages ? _[Dear Moderators, I had a quick look whether the topic had been dealt with already, but could not find it. So...] _


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## ThomasK

Frank06 just referred to another thread, where I read that the root S-P-R is both "to count" and "to tell". (Thanks, Frank.)


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## Frank06

Hi,

At the risk of mixing the purpose of two subfora, the 'count'/'speak' thing can be found back in quite a few (most?) Germanic languages.
The Dutch and German have already been mentioned.

English, well, Old English, _had_ 'tellan' (to count), while modern English has 'tell' (+/- speak). Nevertheless, an expression as 'untold wealth' seems to refer to counting. Please correct me if this is a wrong interpretation! 'Tally' (to reckon or count), related to the same root, seems to be another relic.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## ThomasK

I must say I had thought of 'count' and 'account'. In Danish there seems to be 'tælle' and 'fortælle', I am not sure about Swedish. 
 
But indeed, let us focus on the link between the two here, on whether the parallel is found in lots of languages, not on the origin...


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## Outsider

In Portuguese, _contar_ means both to count and to tell a story.


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## Adam S.

In Kazakh:

Есеп [yesep]


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## Volcano

*In Turkish:

Hesap*


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## ThomasK

So both in Turkish and in Kazakh the words are simply the same ?


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## Adam S.

ThomasK said:


> So both in Turkish and in Kazakh the words are simply the same ?


No, they came from Arabic. That's why they are the same.


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## ThomasK

INsisting one last time: is there any difference at all in the use of the words ? Is the meaning in each sentence determined by the context or by intrinsic features ?


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## Adam S.

I think, if you use these words without context, you will be correctly understood.


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## ThomasK

OK, but doesn't some ambiguity result from that if you use them without context ? Or is there some aspect of the verb form that refers to the other meaning ?


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## Volcano

*For example:

Hesaplamak - To calculate

Hesap vermek - To give account*

*Hesaba katmak - To take into account*


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## akaAJ

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I'm sure you're right: "untold wealth" is "uncounted wealth" (implication, countless, too much to count).  Other English examples of "tell" as "count": bank tellers (French guichetiers?), vote tellers.

On the other hand, "recount", in addition to meaning "count again", is in robust use as "to narrate" (e.g., the day's events).  Is this directly derived from French "raconter", or is there a more complex path?  My Petit Larousse relates both "compter" (to count) and "conter" (to tell a story or tale) to Latin "computare", but derives "raconter" from Old French "aconter".

Finally, Yiddish follows the Germanic form
   tseyln = to count
   dertseyln = to tell, narrate
(I don't have access to a Hebrew font for these: tsadik, tsvey yidn, lamed, nun in Warsaw Yiddish).


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## dinji

In Finnish, the word _kertoa_ may mean 'tell, narrate' or 'multiply'. An analogy close enough, I think, the common denominator being _to repeat_ something. The noun _kerta_, from which the verb is derived, means 'time' in the meaning of Castilian 'vez', French 'foi' or German 'mal'.

As a curiosity (hope it is not off-topic) he word for 'to count' _laskea_, may also mean '_to let down, slip; to let go, unleash_' or in intransitive use '_to toboggan_'


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## jazyk

> OK, but doesn't some ambiguity result from that if you use them without context ? Or is there some aspect of the verb form that refers to the other meaning ?


Nope. In Portuguese:
Ele contou o dinheiro. = He counted the money.
Ele contou uma história. = He told a story.


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## ThomasK

@dinji: the counting, summing up, seems to be the key element in counting and telling.


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## ThomasK

The _count on_ thread reminded me of this question, and some searching led to some new examples at weblettres.net:



> En hébreu [Hebrew] conter : « le saper », compter : « li saper ».
> En chinois [Chinese] compter : « shu, », conter : « shu ».


 
More welcome !


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## Tamar

> En hébreu [Hebrew] conter : « le saper », compter : « li saper ».


Juste une correction: compter _lispor_.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> There seems to be a link between telling (_an account_) and counting, based on enumeration.  See also: _tellen, vertellen_ in Dutch, _zählen/ erzählen_ in German, and in some North Germanic languages like Danish, _compter/ conter_ in French.
> 
> But is it also the case in other languages ? _[Dear Moderators, I had a quick look whether the topic had been dealt with already, but could not find it. So...] _



Not in Greek:
-telling an account: 
«Αφηγούμαι» (afi'ɣume); Ancient verb «ἀφηγέομαι/ἀφηγοῦμαι» (apʰē'geomæ [uncontracted]/apʰē'goumæ [contracted])-->lit. "to lead the way"; metaph. "to tell, relate, assert". *"Telling an account":* *«Αφηγούμαι ιστορία»* (afi'ɣume isto'ria--> lit. "telling a story").
-rendering an account:
«Προβαίνω» (pro'veno); Ancient verb «προβαίνω» (prŏ'bænō)-->"to step forward, advance"; metaph. of "narrative, argument, action, events".
«Απολογισμός» (apoloʝi'zmos, _m._); Hellenistic masculine noun «ἀπολογισμός» (apologi'smos)-->"account kept, record". *"Rendering an account": «Προβαίνω σε απολογισμό»* (pro'veno se apoloʝi'zmo-->lit. "narrate a kept account/record").
-Count:
«Μετράω/μετρώ» (me'trao [uncontracted]/me'tro [contracted]); Ancient verb «μετρέω/μετρῶ» (me'trĕō [uncontracted]/me'trō [contracted])-->lit. "to measure"; metaph. "to count"

[ɣ] is a voiced velar fricative
[ʝ] is a voiced palatal fricative


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## Perkele

dinji said:


> In Finnish, the word _kertoa_ may mean 'tell, narrate' or 'multiply'. An analogy close enough, I think, the common denominator being _to repeat_ something. The noun _kerta_, from which the verb is derived, means 'time' in the meaning of Castilian 'vez', French 'foi' or German 'mal'.
> 
> As a curiosity (hope it is not off-topic) he word for 'to count' _laskea_, may also mean '_to let down, slip; to let go, unleash_' or in intransitive use '_to toboggan_'


_Laskea_ too can have a meaning close to telling.
sananlasku - proverb
laskea leikkiä - jest


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## ThomasK

Thanks again, Apmoy, and thanks for the correction, Tamar !

Greek is interestingly different, whereas the tell/ count parallel seems fairly widespread. I cannot imagine a European language using a form of leading for telling, but interesting to know !


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## mataripis

Tagalog: Count=bumilang/ Account= Mapabilang(counted as registered name)


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## ThomasK

But could you tell us more about the _bumi_-, _mapabi_- and -lang element? Is -_lang_ to count or something the like?


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> But could you tell us more about the _bumi_-, _mapabi_- and -lang element? Is -_lang_ to count or something the like?


Ok. e.g.= count from 1 to 10 (bumilang mula sa isa hanggang sampu)  * When you register your name automatically you become a member in this group(Kapag nagpatala ka ng pangalan mo, ikaw ay napabilang na sa pangkat na ito)  * The "numbers" in Tagalog is usually expressed in Spanish words/versions.(Ang "Bilang" sa Tagalog ay karaniwang sinasabi sa salitang Espanyol.)  The word "Bumilang" is "to count", but when we say you are included in this group, the word "Nabibilang"/kabilang" is used. In order to become a member(Upang mapabilang sa pangkat/samahan),  Other forms of word= 1.) Nagbibilang=counting  2.) bibilangin= will count  3.)kabilang= part of/categorized as  4.)Magpabilang na= register now  5.)Therefore, account name = is "Ngalang Kabilang" or in short " Napapabilang"


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## bibax

Czech (and possibly other Slavic languages):

the verbs with the root *čet-, čit-, čt-* mean either _to count_ or _to read_:

čísti (*čet-ti) = to read
sečísti (perf.), sečítati (imperf.) = to add (math.)
odečísti, odčítati = to subtract (math.)
počítati = to compute

The meaning _'to read'_ is later (as counting is older than writing/reading).

There is also a meaning _'to regard, to reckon'_ (He is regarded as ...).


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## ThomasK

It is only now that I realize well that my starting point was account in the meaning of 'bank account' (count/ account - rekenen/ rekening), whereas I think most of you have associated it with a story: 'an account of an event' for example, some kind of report, which would be translated in Dutch as 'een verslag over een evenement/ gebeuren' and which refers to telling (counting) stories...


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## itreius

BCS

account - *račun*
to count (on someone) - *račun*ati (na nekoga)
to count - *brojati* (_broj_ - number)
vertellen/erzählen - *reći* (< _riječ_ - word; related to the Polish _rzecz_ ~ thing; from PSl.)


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## ThomasK

Are 1/2 and 4 related then? Do you see a clear-cut difference between the idea of counting and counting on someone? Don't you have a literal verb meaning charging someone or sending money to one's account?  _(Sorry if this is messy, but I am running out of time...;-( )_


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