# Konfessionsfrei - Konfession



## eno2

_Hello. I said, in a discussion, that in certain countries a non-religious head of state was unthinkable(USA f.i.). _

_Someone answered: <That's a cultural question, not a religious one.>_

_We went on discussing an interview with Püttmann. _*Konfessionen im Vergleich*

_Püttmann said:<Interessanterweise war auch kein Mitglied der Bundesregierung konfessionsfrei>_

_So I used that as an argument:  'that nobody in the government was irreligious'. _

 Then they said:

<If you use Konfession or Bekenntnis to mean religious belief or the lack thereof you are using the wrong word.>

And: <You can be a devout Christian and still _konfessionslos_. It only means that you not You can be a devout Christian and still _konfessionslos_. It only means that you not a declared ("confessed") member of a religious public corporation and don't pay church tax.>

The dictionaries seem to go my way.

But then they said: <Dictionaries can rarely be trusted with terms that have culture specific meanings and are difficult to translate>

So my question is: Does Konfession means 'a religious conviction or belief', generally speaking, and does Konfessionsfrei – konfessionslos mean' irreligious', generally speaking? Or is it indeed just used and to be understood in the narrow sense of <"You can be a devout Christian and still _konfessionslos_. It only means that you not a declared ("confessed") member of a religious public corporation and don't pay church tax.">?


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## Frank78

The Duden only mentions "Religion" as minor synonym but not among the main meanings.

Dict.cc doesn't mention "religion" at all as valid translation.

What about all the non-Christians? Are they automatically non-believers because they cannot have a confession. The word is reserved for Christian churches.


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## bearded

To me, 'konfessionsfrei' means not belonging to any Christian ''denomination'' (catholic, protestant....).


eno2 said:


> and don't pay church tax


That's it.


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## eno2

bearded said:


> To me, 'konfessionsfrei' means not belonging to any Christian ''denomination'' (catholic, protestant....).
> 
> That's it.



Si it's both? Not Christian and not paying tax? Or just not paying tax?


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## Frank78

eno2 said:


> Si it's both? Not Christian and not paying tax? Or just not paying tax?



Not a member of a Christian church and thus not paying church tax.

The rest is judging people if you say they aren't Christian because they aren't a member of a church.


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## eno2

Frank78 said:


> The Duden only mentions "Religion" as minor synonym but not among the main meanings.
> 
> Dict.cc doesn't mention "religion" at all as valid translation.


 Coud well be but the first difinition that I cited was Duden:
<Konfessionslos: Adjektiv - keiner Konfession angehörend>. This is the Duden on line. It refers to 'Konfession'

But then in that discussion, I also cited Duden on 'Konfession'.
<religiöse Gemeinschaft mit einer bestimmten Konfession> 

So that's the same general meaning. =>Konfessionsfrei: not belong to a religious community with religious beliefs (dogmas, Glaubenssätze)




> What about all the non-Christians? Are they automatically non-believers because they cannot have a confession. The word is reserved for Christian churches.


There's no limitation to Christian in Duden.

I'm beginning to think that this is a simple case of double meaning and double use . As Duden also gives two meanings. A specific one and a more general one.
The question is then:  in which sense has Puttmann used it?


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## eno2

Frank78 said:


> Not a member of a Christian church and thus not paying church tax.
> 
> The rest is judging people if you say they aren't Christian because they aren't a member of a church.


I'm judging nobody
I'm looking for what Püttmann meant exactly.
See #6
If you're a member of a Christian church, the church taxes you directly? I can't believe that. So you  can  be a member and still not pay tax churches, because it's you who decides to pay church taxes or not, I suppose. I can be excused for not knowing anything about these 'religious' intricacies, as such a church tax is  typically  German . OK, Spain has it too for the Catholic church  on the tax declaration. Italy I don't know.


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## Demiurg

Regarding the religiousness of politicians, Gerhard Schröder was the first chancellor who omitted the traditional "So wahr mir Gott helfe" in his oath:

Schröder will keine Hilfe von oben


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## eno2

Interesting. Thanks. If the State is going to be secular: no such swearing in  with the help of God.


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## Frank78

eno2 said:


> I'm judging nobody
> I'm looking for what Püttmann meant exactly.



I already told you in the Café. He meant all members of the government are a member of a church. Of course no-one can prove if anyone is a true believer, so "religious" would never make any sense.



eno2 said:


> If you're a member of a Christian church, the church taxes you directly? I can't believe that. So you  can  be a member and still not pay tax churches, because it's you who decides to pay church taxes or not, I suppose. I can be excused for not knowing anything about these 'religious' intricacies, as such a church tax is  typically  German . OK, Spain has it too for the Catholic church  on the tax declaration. Italy I don't know.



The state collects the tax for the church, you cannot get around it if you belong to one of the major denominations. I don't know if there is any minor church which does not want to have some tax money.


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## eno2

I talked to my neighbour, a German teacher. I gave her the two versions, mine and yours, without disclosing to her which was mine, and she went for mine.

That's not very stimulating to believe yours.
I'll try to get a second opinion of an educated German friend very shortly.




> The state collects the tax for the church, you cannot get around it if you belong to one of the major denominations. I don't know if there is any minor church which does not want to have some tax money.[


 I think in Spain it's deductible what you pay to the church and you have to declare yourself you're a member. I'll ask also.


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## Kajjo

A _Konfession _is usually understood as a Christian denomination, e.g. Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical, New-Apostolic and so on. I see absolutely no connection to taxes here, beside that the two dominant denominations in Germany have the taxes collected by state, which is not a defining property of denomination.

_A: Welcher Religion gehören sie an? 
B: Ich bin Christ! / Dem Christentum!
A: Aha, und welche Konfession?
B: Ich bin katholisch/evangelisch._

_Konfessionsfrei_ is usually understood to be free of any religous confession, usually identical and slightly euphemistic to be atheistic/agnostic. Only in this adjective, _konfession- _and _Religion _are almost synonymous.

However, Konfession as noun is not synonymous to religion, but only denotes a Christian denomination. It is impossible to use the adjective to argue for the noun and vice versa.



eno2 said:


> "You can be a devout Christian and still _konfessionslos_.


This is wrong in the common sense of the word. If someone states, he is _konfessionslos_ he wants to express that he is not Christian, usually not religious at all.


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## Frieder

Quote from Brockhaus Enzyklopädie Bd.12 1990 about _Konfession_:

[...] ursprüglich Bezeichnung für den Bekenntnisakt des einzelnen oder einer religiösen Gemeinschaft (z.B. durch Taufe und Firmung); seit der Reformation Bezeichnung für die Bekenntnisschriften der verschiedenen evangelischen Kirchen (z.B. die 'Confessio Augustana' von 1530); davon abgeleitet, v.a. seit dem 19. Jh., auch *Bezeichnung für die einzelnen christlichen Kirchen*.​So _konfessionslos _means "not belonging to any of the Christian Churches". If you're a Muslim or a Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever, you are _konfessionslos _by definition.
​


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## Frank78

You are contradicting yourself, Kajjo. 

At the beginning you say it means "not belonging to a Christian denomination" and at the end "being not religious". One has nothing to do with the other, in my humble opinion.


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## eno2

What is ursprüglich? Ursprünglich? Has the meaning of Konfession changed?
Is that the only meaning that Brockhaus gives?
I don't dispute it can have and has that specific technical meaning, I learned that here, but after all that's said I'm just not sure yet  how Püttman used 'konfessionsfrei'.
Duden gives the general meaning and possibly the general public uses and understands  that word in that general way.


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## JClaudeK

Frieder said:


> So _konfessionslos _means "not belonging to any of the Christian Churches". If you're a Muslim or a Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever, you are _konfessionslos _by definition.



It used to be like that.
But what do you think of that:


> Die neue islamische Konfession
> Das Bildungsministerium anerkennt die "Islamische Alevitische Glaubensgemeinschaft in Österreich"
> 
> Aleviten wurden als Bekenntnisgemeinschaft staatlich anerkannt.
> Sie gelten nun als islamische Konfession, nicht als eigene Religion.



Und


> Religionszugehörigkeiten in Deutschland 2016
> Der Bevölkerungsanteil der *konfessionsgebundenen Muslime* ist im Jahr 2016 von 4,4 Prozent auf  4,9 Prozent gestiegen.
> Die größte weltanschauliche Gruppe in Deutschland, die Gruppe der *Konfessionsfreien* [keine Religionszugehörigkeit] , wuchs 2016 um weitere 380.000 Personen und stellt nun 36,2 Prozent der Gesamtbevölkerung


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## JClaudeK

eno2 said:


> What is ursprüglich?


= originally


> Konfessionslosigkeit
> Zum Teil wird der Begriff _Konfessionslosigkeit_ im Sinne von Religionslosigkeit gebraucht, was generell den weltanschaulichen Strömungen des Atheismus, Agnostizismus, dem Freidenkertum und Säkularen Humanismus entspricht.
> Konfession
> Der Begriff Konfession (lateinisch _confessio_ ‚Geständnis‘, ‚Bekenntnis‘) bezeichnet im heutigen Sprachgebrauch eine Untergruppe innerhalb einer Religion (ursprünglich nur der christlichen), die sich in Lehre, Organisation oder Praxis von anderen Untergruppen unterscheidet. Mittlerweile spricht man teils auch von islamischer[1] oder jüdischer Konfession.


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## Frank78

That's "only" the administrative usage, JClaudeK.

As on your tax form, there one can also read "Konfession" and it includes muslims and jews as well.


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## JClaudeK

Frank78 said:


> [Püttmann] meant all members of the government are a member of a church. Of course no-one can prove if anyone is a true believer,


Die Unterscheidung zwischen „religiös“ und  „nicht-religiös“ ist aufschlussreicher:

In der weltweiten WIN-Gallup Umfrage [...]_ lautete 2012 die Frage: „Irrespective of whether you attend a place of worship or not, would you say you are a religious person, not a religious persons or a convinced atheist?” („Unabhängig davon, ob Sie einen Ort des Gottesdienstes besuchen, würden Sie sagen, dass Sie eine religiöse Person sind, keine religiöse Person sind oder ein überzeugter Atheist?“). 
Diese Fragestellung berücksichtigt das Wissen, dass Gruppenzugehörigkeiten und individuelles Selbstverständnis nicht deckungsgleich sind. „Konfessionslose“ in Deutschland ist nicht deckungsgleich mit „ohne Religion“, ebenso wie „Kirchenmitglied“ nicht bedeutet, dass diese Personen sich als religiös verstehen._


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## Kajjo

Frank78 said:


> At the beginning you say it means "not belonging to a Christian denomination" and at the end "being not religious".


Not all. Please read careful. Adjective and noun are not used in the same meaning nowadays.

The noun "Konfession" means denomination, i.e. one flavor of Christianity.

The adjective "konfessionsfrei" usually means non-religious.


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## JClaudeK

Frank78 said:


> As on your tax form, there one can also read "Konfession"


"Konfession" on a tax form?  
Inconceivable in France!!


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## Frieder

Frank78 said:


> As on your tax form, there one can also read "Konfession"


That is not correct. On your taxform (Hauptvordruck lfd.Nr. 13) it says _Religion _and not _Konfession_.



JClaudeK said:


> Inconceivable in France!!



That is because French tax authorities don't collect those pieces of silver for any church – unlike ours.



eno2 said:


> What is ursprüglich? Ursprünglich? Has the meaning of Konfession changed?
> Is that the only meaning that Brockhaus gives?



Yes and yes. Yes, the meaning of _Konfession _changed during the centuries and its current meaning exists since the 19th century. And yes, it is the only meaning that Brockhaus gives. It also says that the Catholic Church hardly ever uses the term _Konfession _officialy but uses the term _kirchliche Gemeinschaft _(parochial community) instead.


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## eno2

Frieder said:


> That is not correct. On your taxform (Hauptvordruck lfd.Nr. 13) it says _Religion _and not _Konfession_.



Frank 78 is confusing Religion with Konfession, just as I am


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## Frank78

eno2 said:


> Frank 78 is confusing Religion with Konfession, just as I am



No, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere on the tax form. It just doesn't bother me as I'm not a member of a church.


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## Kajjo

Worüber streitet Ihr eigentlich? Die Lage des aktuellen Sprachgebrauchs ist doch eigentlich völlig klar. Wer behauptet denn was anderes als dass "Konfession" eine Untergruppe einer Religion ist, aber "konfessionsfrei" synonym zu "keiner Religion zugehörig" verwendet wird?


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## eno2

My young German friend P. (with a university degree) confirms that there's a technical meaning for Konfession (=membership of a church) and a general one (=something to do with religion). He would understand konfessionsfrei also as being irreligious. 
His parents had to forfeit membership of their church in order not to pay taxes for a church in Germany. 
In Spain, you have to pay something like 0.5% to the church, but you can choose to destine that to an NGO.


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## Frank78

Kajjo said:


> Worüber streitet Ihr eigentlich? Die Lage des aktuellen Sprachgebrauchs ist doch eigentlich völlig klar. Wer behauptet denn was anderes als dass "Konfession" eine Untergruppe einer Religion ist, aber "konfessionsfrei" synonym zu "keiner Religion zugehörig" verwendet wird?



Nun das usprüngliche Zitat war "_Interessanterweise war auch kein Mitglied der Bundesregierung konfessionsfrei"._

Woher will der Autor wissen, ob die Mitglieder der Bundesregierung wirklich gläubig sind. Von daher macht für mich nur "einer Kirche angehörend" Sinn.


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## eno2

Yes.  Püttmann, a religion buff,  probably  meant the  formal meaning, with 'konfessionsfrei'. Especially as the article only mentions Protestants and Catholics, as far as I remember. I did not interpret konfessionsfrei that way, and also not 'Ein Konfessionsvergleich' in the title. But then I could not have done otherwise, as I was unaware of that formal meaning. The (2) Germans I talked to  interpreted the 2 words spontaneously in the more general meaning of _*religiöse Überzeugung*_, as I reported.


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## eno2

Also, Konfession is a cognate of the identical Dutch word.

I don't know if I should rather say 'a false friend' because it defines much the same way as Duden 





> Bekenntnis
> _Augsburger Konfession_
> _*religiöse Überzeugung*_


[Dikke Van Dale online] in my translation


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## Kajjo

Frank78 said:


> Woher will der Autor wissen, ob die Mitglieder der Bundesregierung wirklich gläubig sind. Von daher macht für mich nur "einer Kirche angehörend" Sinn.


Ja, oder eben "einer Religion angehörig". Ich verstehe den Satz so, dass jeder eine Religion angegeben hat. Keiner war konfessionslos, sinngleich mit "ohne Glaubensbekenntnis".

Es können aber gewiss zwei Muslime, drei Protestanten und sechs Katholiken dabei gewesen sein, zumindest nach eigener Zuordnung zur Religionsgemeinschaft. Über die Tiefe des Glaubens sagt das doch sowieso nicht aus.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Ja, oder eben "einer Religion angehörig". Ich verstehe den Satz so, dass jeder eine Religion angegeben hat. Keiner war konfessionslos, sinngleich mit "ohne Glaubensbekenntnis".


Ja, genau. Das bedeutet aber nicht, dass Du aus Konfessionslosigkeit eines Mitgliedes der Bundesregierung schießen könntest, dass er oder sie nicht religiös oder gläubig wären. Die Aussage der Konfessionslosigkeit bezieht sich ausschließlich auf erklärte Zugehörigkeit zu einer Religionsgemeinschaft.

Es ist richtig, dass sich Atheisten und Agnostiker oft selbst als _konfessionslos _beschreiben, was sie auch sind. Aber das lässt sich halt nicht umdrehen und darin liegt die Bedeutung von _Konfession _und aller abgeleiteten Ausdrücke.


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Yes, the meaning of _Konfession _changed during the centuries *and its current meaning exists since the 19th century*.


And it has changed further since the second half of the 20th century. It is quite common today to talk, e.g., of Sunni and Shia as _muslimische Konfessionen_.


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## fdb

JClaudeK said:


> "Konfession" on a tax form?
> Inconceivable in France!!



Unless you live in Alsace.


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## JClaudeK

That's true:


> The 1801 Concordat was abrogated in the rest of France by the law of 1905 on the separation of church and state. However, at the time, Alsace-Moselle had been annexed by Germany so the Concordat remained in force in these areas.
> Concordat in Alsace-Moselle - Wikipedia


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## Gernot Back

This _pair konfessionslos _vs. _konfessionsfrei _reminds me of the pair _sinnlos _vs. _sinnfrei_. The versions with ~_los_ sound rather neutral, while the versions with ~_frei_ sound emotional. _Konfessionsfrei _sounds very positive and affirmative to me, while _sinnfrei_ sounds a lot more disapproving than _sinnlos_.


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## eno2

> Konfession - Englisch-Übersetzung - Langenscheidt Deutsch-Englisch Wörterbuch
> 
> *Konfession [kɔnfɛˈsɪ̆oːn]*
> f <Konfession; Konfessionen
> 
> *religion*
> 
> *creed*
> 
> denomination ( evangelische etc)
> 
> church
> 
> confession (of faith), creed (Glaubensbekenntnis)
> Beispiele
> 
> welcher Konfession gehören Sie an?
> 
> what is your* religion* (od denomination)?
> 
> die christlichen Konfessionen
> 
> the Christian denominations
> 
> die Augsburgische Konfession 1530
> 
> the Augsburg (od Augustan) Confession
> 
> 
> 
> Konfession Bekenntnis
> 
> confession



Much 'religion'....


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## Hutschi

eno2 said:


> I'm judging nobody
> I'm looking for what Püttmann meant exactly.
> See #6
> If you're a member of a Christian church, the church taxes you directly?



It charges you not directly, but the state (Germany) charges you. You pay church taxes not to the church but to the state in Germany. The state pays the taxes than to the church. You can pay additionally to any church, independent of membership. This is called _Spende._
If you are not member of a church like catholic, protestantic etc. you will not pay church taxes. I don't know about muslemic or buddhistic churches.
Until some years ago, you had to pay church taxes when you were unemployed in any case, but this is changed now. Now it only depends on whether you are member of a church or not.

Confessions are, for example, Catholic, Evangelical, etc.


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## eno2

Does the Church  (which you are a member of ) communicates your membership to the tax authority? I think so, because the tax authority needs  control in order to prevent you ducking  your obligation (Spende).

Being hit via the state tax system for obligatory transferring tax money to a religious organization: I find that fairly worrying  from the point of view of separation of Church and State and  from t.p.o.v of equality of churches and religions, Funding your church or not should be a free and personal decision.


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## Frieder

It's called Staatskirchenvertrag (Konkordat), and I can relate to your misgivings.


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## eno2

Staatskirchen... Staatskirchentum. The term alone....makes me think of a streak of theocracy.


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## berndf

eno2 said:


> Does the Church (which you are a member of ) communicates your membership to the tax authority?


The other way round. Some religious communities, among them the major Christian churches, are chartered corporations (Körperschaften öffentlichen Rechts). Membership records in those corporations are maintained by the municipal registrar's offices. When I left the protestant church I had to declare this to the mayor of the town I was living in, who counter-signed the declaration and sent it for confirmation to the local district court. There was no direct communication with the church itself from my side.


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