# おつかれさま



## adexx

How are these different: おつかれさま / おつかれさまです / おつかれさまでした? Can they be used interchangeably?
And is it polite to just say おつかれさま to someone in higher position?


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## Wishfull

Hi.
おつかれさまです　is politer than おつかれさま.
And it is not polite to just say おつかれさま　to someone in higher position.
You had better say おつかれさまです.

おつかれさまでした is past tense.　
It is for goodbye-greeting. 
English equivalent would be; Have a nice evening.

おつかれさま　and おつかれさまです　also can be used as goodbye-greeting. They can also be used as a greeting at the beginning of conversation.


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## adexx

I also heard  おつかれさまです at the beginning of a telephone conversation.
Is this common for everyday (telephone) conversation? Or is it limited to certain cases only (e.g., business talk etc)?


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## Wishfull

adexx said:


> I also heard  おつかれさまです at the beginning of a telephone conversation.
> Is this common for everyday (telephone) conversation? Or is it limited to certain cases only (e.g., business talk etc)?



Yes. It is very common for everyday conversation including telephone talks.
It can be used as almost almighty greeting words.

Nice to see you. 
Hi. 
Have a nice day. 
Have a nice evening. 
See you.

I think of the situation in which the expression is not proper, but I don't think of it now. If I find it, I will let you know.

おつかれさまです。
Wishfull

PS) To your close friends, you can use おつかれ or おつかれー as well as おつかれさま. They are abbreviated versions.


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## almostfreebird

My guess is the phrase "おつかれさま" was originally used in movie, or theater-related industry. Now it is used everywhere.

There are people who think the phrase sounds weird regardless of age.


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## Wishfull

almostfreebird said:


> There are people who think the phrase sounds weird regardless of age.



Really? 

I didn't know that.


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## almostfreebird

Wishfull said:


> Really?
> 
> I didn't know that.



For example:
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1420734549


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## Wishfull

almostfreebird said:


> For example:
> http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1420734549



Thank you, almostfreebird, for the imformation.

いやあ、知らなかった！
数年前に小西真奈美がCMで、「おつかれさま。ぐびなまのもー」ってやってましたが、小西真奈美にそう言われたら、とっても癒されるよなあ、いちど言われてみたいものだって思ってましたが、そのCMをみて、まゆをしかめる人たちがいたなんて。

私の職場にも「お疲れ様はおかしい」と怒って力説する上司がいましたが、（首になりましたが）、彼は相当な変人だと思ってました。

現在の日本では、すでに相当の市民権を得てるんじゃないかなあ？あなた御自身も嫌いな挨拶ですか？


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## Flaminius

adexx said:


> I also heard  おつかれさまです at the beginning of a telephone conversation.
> Is this common for everyday (telephone) conversation? Or is it limited to certain cases only (e.g., business talk etc)?


Ah, that's a very comradely opening line.  Yes, it's usually limited to conversations with members of your workplace.  It's not good for addressing a customer.  Unless you and your customer have a close relationship, they would think you are too buddy-buddy, ingratiating etc.

Few people admittedly think of an expression like this on the semantic level, but  おつかれさまです literally is "I am sure you are tired."  Implied things are that the listener is tired, busy, working hard etc. because he is working for the good of the group and that the speaker sympathizes with him because he is also working for the same cause.

Apparently being tired is a weakness and one does not want to disclose one's weakness in a relationship where there is little trust and much tension.  Sometimes a relationship is so confrontational that a casual おつかれさま can be regarded as an attempt at forcing someone to admit their weakness.  A bossy boss may conceive their relationship with their subordinates as a very vertical one, so a reference by the subordinates to his "weakness" is to him a challenge to his authority.  Some people may be working in a place where animosity is the norm.

Anyway, it is a word which is very much related to work, intimacy, or both.  If a father comes home from work and his daughter yells おつかれさま with much cheer, then that is a sign that they are in good terms and the father is proud of being the bread-earner of the family (Cf. the commercial *Wishy* referred to in *#8* _supra_).


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## almostfreebird

Wishfull said:


> Thank you, almostfreebird, for the imformation.
> 
> 
> 
> 私の職場にも「お疲れ様はおかしい」と怒って力説する上司がいましたが、（首になりましたが）、彼は相当な変人だと思ってました。
> 
> 現在の日本では、すでに相当の市民権を得てるんじゃないかなあ？あなた御自身も嫌いな挨拶ですか？



I'm a super eccentric(nonconformist) dude.


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## Wishfull

almostfreebird said:


> I'm a super eccentric(nonconformist) dude.



OK.
I should have known that. Such a respectful person like you said so, then it must be so. I'm sorry about the word "eccentric". 

In my circumstances, which is called "3K", everybody is exhausted, and it is one of the most major greeting expression to say お疲れ様です.

But I should have know that it is the matter of just our world, not throughout the nation.

Thank you for the information. 
I've learned something new, from your lesson.

Wishfull


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## almostfreebird

Wishfull said:


> OK.
> I'm sorry about the word "eccentric".
> 
> 
> Wishfull



I accually have a friend who was in スーパー・エキセントリック・シアター


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## Wishfull

almostfreebird said:


> I accually have a friend who was in スーパー・エキセントリック・シアター



Excuse me. I seems that I misunderstood you.
I thought the opposite.
I thought that "eccentric/nonconformist" refers to those people who dislike to hear the expression.

You're using the expression "otukaresama" , and you don't think it is wired to use it, right?


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## almostfreebird

I would say "otsukaresama" in a limited situation.

As for "nonconformist", I mean I don't want to be like 

those who believe "赤信号、みんなで渡れば怖くない", um this is not a proper example,

in other words, I defy peer pressure. Just because everybody says "otsukaresama", I don't have to say "otsukaresama".


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## Wishfull

I've lost confidence if I could understand you correctly.

You have a friend who was in スーパーエクセントリックシアター. 
He/she is using おつかれさまです, right?
But you don't want to use おつかれさまです to him/her, because don't want to be 付和雷同, right?

BTW, your number of posts is just three-sevens. Congratulations!


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## almostfreebird

Of course people who work or perform in theater or movie set would frequently say "おつかれさまです" or "おつかれさま"　*in their workplace*　as if it were "routine".

And I believe the phrase"おつかれさまです" is originated in those industry(theater or movie).

And now everybody says "おつかれさま"　or "おつかれ～" everywhere because of TV influence. No wonder some people think it's ridiculous. I don't watch TV except MLB.

Edit:
I'm not so serious about the expression "おつかれさま", just for this thread.


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## Strutter

When I first heard "おつかれさま" at my school, I was 10 years old or so. At first I didn't understand what "おつかれさま" meant, then I got the meaning through daily talking. I can remember that clearly.

"おつかれさま" has been always a common phrasee around me since I knew it, in particular, at my high-school and university it was used very frequently when we finished a day's part-time wroking, studying and so on.

In fact, I still don't know "おつかれさま" completely; the origin of it is still unknown, but at least, I can say that we often use it to appreciate ourselves each other among friends or someone like that.

A:「おつかれ～　(I and you did it well, didn't we?)
B:「おつかれ～ (Yes, of course.)

Thanks.


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## adexx

So, as I understand, generally this phrase is suitable in situations related to work, business, activities that you really work and "be tired"... right?
What about in everyday casual conversation? Is おつかれ(さま) still that popular?
For example, when talking on the phone with a friend, which is more common & natural (at the beginning of the talk):
- "Ah, ABC-san, genki?" 
- "Ah, ABC-san, おつかれ"


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## almostfreebird

In my opinion:

- "Ah, ABC-san, genki?" 
- "Ah, ABC-san, おつかれ"         ??

edit: If you want to ask like "Are you tired?",

you usually say like: "疲れてる？" 　"疲れた？"
or
　"疲れました？"　"疲れていませんか？(polite)"


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## Wishfull

Hi.
According to the discussion thus far, I think you had better not use the expression.
You should avoid to say the expression first.

BUT
When somebody says it to you, you should say the same expression back to him/her.
I don't think it's natural to say different word back to him/her.

Someone) おつかれさま。
You）　おつかれさま。　　

Someone) おつかれさま。
You）　私は疲れてませんよ。では、さようなら。 
This is very impolite, and very offensive.


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## Tom in Hawaii

It might be worth mentioning that in addition to お疲れ様, you also frequently hear ご苦労様（でした）used either among fellow workers or from a supervisor to the workers under him (or her? It sounds rather rough for most women to use).
(When I was working in Japanese television, お疲れ様でしたwas the universal term used at the end of work, and no matter what time of day the rehearsing or filming began -- even at midnight -- the standard greeting was お早うございます.)


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## Strutter

Hello.



> It sounds rather rough for most women to use


 
I would disagree only on this point.



> お疲れ様でしたwas the universal term used at the end of work


 
Yes, お疲れ様でした is very often used at the end of work. We say so, thinking like "thank you for your working today".


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## almostfreebird

Strutter said:


> Yes, お疲れ様でした is very often used at the end of work. We say so, thinking like "thank you for your working today".




Actually Tom said "*When I was working in Japanese television*, お疲れ様でした was the universal term used at the end of work". As I said it's kind of routine to say that in those industry(movie, theater, TV)

And like Flaminius said, few people admittedly think of an expression like this on the semantic level.

If I think I thank you for your working in daily life, I would　simply say "ありがとう ございました。” or　"どうも　ありがとう ございました。"


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## salsako

my understanding of the word "otsukaresama  - おつかれさま”　is that the word shows the speaker(person A)'s appreciation of what was done by the other (person B). 
e.g. the person B traveled all the way to see the person A, 
the person B worked hard till late for the following day's presentation (that the person A is also going to attend), 
then the Person A comes across to an occasion to appreciate the person's B's work, efforts, achievement, devotion, contribution, etc, and say "otukare sama".
so I personally don't think the word is related to the concept of "being tired" so much.
(e.g. when you say "excuse me" in English to ask for somebody's attention, the usage of the word is far away from the fundamental meaning of the verb, "to excuse" something like...to forgive, overlook, disregard, ignore, tolerate, etc.)

otukaresama deshita - おつかれさまでした is I think more used when the person B's action was completed. e.g. a repairman came to my house to fix my shower. when he arrived at my place, I would say to him "otukare sama" which stands for "thank you for coming all the way to fix my stuff upon my request". BUT the mission was not yet completed. when the repairman completed the fix, or when he left my  I would say to him "otsukaresama deshita" because the job was done. 

more tricky one is something like this;
my relatives came all the way from Australia to Japan to attend my daughter's wedding in Japan. when I saw them at Naria International Airport, I would say "otsukaresama deshita" that suggests I appreciated what the long journey like... how they were feeling after getting up very early, sitting on a small seat for hours, etc. BUT the trip was over. I could also say "otsukaresama / otsukaresama desu". in this case I think it suggests the goal of their entire action was not completed at the moment at the airport. they came to Japan but haven't attended my daughter's wedding yet. so still they are still in a process of doing something (in this case, still on the way to attend the wedding).

when Japanese people use this phrase, it doesn't mean one looks tired. 

depends on situation, I think I would interpreter the word into ....
"you must have been busy"
"you must have worked hard"
"thank you for your efforts"
"great job / good job"
"thank you for doing something for my sake" 
"I know you had a hard time"
"I'm happy for you that you have completed what you were doing"


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## Strutter

almostfreebird said:


> Actually Tom said "*When I was working in Japanese television*, お疲れ様でした was the universal term used at the end of work". As I said it's kind of routine to say that in those industry(movie, theater, TV)
> 
> And like Flaminius said, few people admittedly think of an expression like this on the semantic level.
> 
> If I think I thank you for your working in daily life, I would　simply say "ありがとう ございました。”


 
If お疲れ様 = I'm sure you are tired, why we use "お疲れ様" at end of the work?

When I finished washing up dishes, "おつかれ," my mother said to me in my HOME. Why? Did She want to say "I'm sure you are tired"? I don't think so, I'm sure she wanted to say "thank you". In addition, I, my freinds, my professor, or pepole I know very often say "おつかれ" instead of saying "ありがとう" directly, they are not working where you said.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
I think salsako's explanation is very good. (#24).

The problem about this greeting expression is this;
*Has the expression "otukare(sama)" already become the Japanese standard greeting expression?
Has it become an as-the-matter-of-course expression?*


I though it has. (So I was surprised at #6.)
Probably *Strutter* and* salsako* too think it has.

*Almostfirebird *and* Flaminius* doesn't.

My advice is to use the expression only to me, Strutter, salsako, or those who thinks it as the matter of course.
And not to use it to Almostfirebird, Flam, or those who doesn't think it as the matter of course.

How can you distinguish who belongs to which?
It's easy.
*Please say "otukare" to those who say it by themselves.*
This is my advice. (#20).

It depends on each individual's preference.


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## Strutter

> The problem about this greeting expression is this;
> *Has the expression "otukare(sama)" already become the Japanese standard greeting expression?*
> _*Has it become an as-the-matter-of-course expression?*_


 
About the points, I refered to 広辞苑: one of the most authoritative dictionaries in Japane.

おつかれ-さま[御疲れ様]
相手の労をねぎらう意の挨拶語。


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## almostfreebird

Strutter said:


> If お疲れ様 = I'm sure you are tired, why we use "お疲れ様" at end of the work?
> 
> When I finished washing up dishes, "おつかれ," my mother said to me in my HOME. Why? Did She want to say "I'm sure you are tired"? I don't think so, I'm sure she wanted to say "thank you". In addition, I, my freinds, my professor, or pepole I know very often say "おつかれ" instead of saying "ありがとう" directly, they are not working where you said.



In post#16 I wrote, "And now everybody says "おつかれさま"　or "おつかれ～" everywhere".

I can guess why your mother says "おつかれ" instead of "ありがとう" directly,

because she would feel a little embarrassed(照れくさい) if she said "ありがとう" to

her own son. So I think the term "おつかれ" is sometimes very useful 

because it is easy, moderately blunt and euphemistic to express your gratitude.

On the other hand It can sound blunt and condescending more than moderately depending on situation.


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## Wishfull

Strutter said:


> About the points, I referred to 広辞苑: one of the most authoritative dictionaries in Japan.
> 
> おつかれ-さま[御疲れ様]
> 相手の労をねぎらう意の挨拶語。



Hi.
Good view!
_I would like to give you two Japanese-cushions. Well, make it three. _
I think your opinion is a very persuading one, because nobody deny the dictionary.

So I agree that it has become a major greeting word in Japan, already.
Yet, we must be cautious to use it, because there are still persons who dislike the expression.


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## almostfreebird

I don't dislike the term. Actually I didn't care about it, whether and where and when and how to use it, before joining this thread.

Now after discussing it from various angles, I find it's a rather equivocal term. 大辞泉  http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=...me=0na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=03203402433150

It seems to me now that, in many situations, it is used perfunctorily, automatically, especially the term "おつかれ".


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## Wishfull

It seems that お疲れ様　becomes very popular, after these discussions.
Yet, I agree with Flam about the following line.



Flaminius said:


> It's not good for addressing a customer.  Unless you and your customer have a close relationship, they would think you are too buddy-buddy, ingratiating etc.


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## Flaminius

Strutter said:


> When I finished washing up dishes, "おつかれ," my mother said to me in my  HOME. Why? Did She want to say "I'm sure you are tired"? I don't think  so, I'm sure she wanted to say "thank you". In addition, I, my freinds,  my professor, or pepole I know very often say "おつかれ" instead of saying  "ありがとう" directly, they are not working where you said.


Not all work is a job.  In office or at home or anywhere, おつかれ strikes me as an acknowledgement of a hard work or solidarity or both.  If your mother does the dishes most of the time, *Struttie*, I'd imagine you would prefer ありがとう to おつかれ in order to appreciate her work.  The former is a more neutral, mundane "thank you."  The latter has a more personal and emotional feel to it.

Needless to say, everyone is looking for a more dramatic way to thank someone who did something to them.  I think that's how おつかれ is replacing ありがとう in some usage domains.  Still, some of the _inroads_ get criticized due to its implications of work and solidarity.  I have discussed how some people hate this expression at work.


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## almostfreebird

adexx said:


> I also heard  おつかれさまです at the beginning of a telephone conversation.
> Is this common for everyday (telephone) conversation? Or is it limited to certain cases only (e.g., business talk etc)?



I think of a situation like this: A boss of a yakuza group(Japanese version of Cosa Nostra) has just returned from Las Vegas after having a lot of fun there, he's now at the airport and makes a phone call to his henchman(name is 中村).

Boss: 中村、　今　空港にいる。(Nakamura, I've just returned, now at the airport.)　

Henchman: おつかれさまでした、親分。　今すぐ迎えに参ります。(You must've been busy boss, I'll pick you up any minutes.)


This "おつかれさまでした" sounds serious(or maybe comical) and loyal.


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