# dovresti essere cresciuto



## spugnetta.rosa

Hi all!
could you help me to translate:
"sei giovane come noi quindi dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la tv o leggendo fumetti".
can it be:
"U R young like us so you might be grew up wathching tv and reading comics"?
or is better:
"U R young like us so you probably grew up ...."
Thank you 
Spugnetta


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## Lorena1970

"you might have grown up..."/ "you've probably grown up..." direi.
Sentiamo altri.


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## rrose17

I don't think "might" works here, it's too hypothetical. To me the simplest would be the best
You're young and probably grew up watching TV and reading comics/comic books like us.


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## Lorena1970

Well, the Italian sentence expresses an hypotetical concept ("dovresti essere cresciuto"= I suppose you grew up, I imagine you grew up, but I really don't know if you did) so don't you think that "might" do?


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## rrose17

To me the two, _probably did/might have, _are different. 
You probably did something. Very likely.
You might have done something. It could be, who knows...


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## spugnetta.rosa

rrose17 said:


> I don't think "might" works here, it's too hypothetical. To me the simplest would be the best
> You're young and probably grew up watching TV and reading comics/comic books like us.



I was looking for a polite tense..and because of the hypothesis involves a big number of concequences, and because of the "growing with TV" should be a "status" more than a choise, I thought that "might" would work better..
But I still have an Italian mind that maybe is not so smart and direct like an English one.


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## curiosone

rrose17 said:


> I don't think "might" works here, it's too hypothetical. To me the simplest would be the best
> You're young and probably grew up watching TV and reading comics/comic books like us.



Sorry Lorena, but I mostly agree with Rrose on this one.  
Only one thing:  I'd say either "....reading the comics..." ..."or "...reading comic books

An alternative might be "You're as young as we are, and probably grew up watching TV and reading comic books like we did.


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## You little ripper!

We would say, ........."reading comics......." in Australian English (we wouldn't use the article).


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## curiosone

Charles Costante said:


> We would say, ........."reading comics......." in Australian English (we wouldn't use the article).



Come to think of it, in AE we say it both ways:  "reading comics" (in general), or "reading the comics" (in a newspaper).  I think the reason for adding the article is because the phrase "the comics" is short for "the comics page."


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## You little ripper!

curiosone said:


> Come to think of it, in AE we say it both ways:  "reading comics" (in general), or "reading the comics" (in a newspaper).  I think the reason for adding the article is because the phrase "the comics" is short for "the comics page."


Aren't we speaking generally in this situation? Or have I misunderstood the Italian sentence?


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## curiosone

Yes, of course.  In this situation we're speaking generally.  I wished simply to confirm that you were right, and then explain the "equivoco."


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## spugnetta.rosa

Charles Costante said:


> Aren't we speaking generally in this situation? Or have I misunderstood the Italian sentence?



You didn't misunderstand. I was talking about comics like Spiderman, or the Italian La Pimpa..I think the argument generated a stream of consciousness..


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## You little ripper!

Thank you, curiosone and spugnetta.rosa. 

I'm still unclear about 'dovresti essere cresciuto'. Can't that be translated _you must have been brought up_?


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## curiosone

Charles Costante said:


> Thank you, curiosone and spugnetta.rosa.
> 
> I'm still unclear about 'dovresti essere cresciuto'. Can't that be translated _you must have been brought up_?



Yes, if you take it out of context.  However in this context, "probably grew up" works better.


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## You little ripper!

curiosone said:


> Yes, if you take it out of context.  However in this context, "probably grew up" works better.


Curiosone, the only clue we have that it might mean _probably_ is spugnetta.rosa's attempted translation. How would you know otherwise?


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## spugnetta.rosa

Charles Costante said:


> Thank you, curiosone and spugnetta.rosa.
> 
> I'm still unclear about 'dovresti essere cresciuto'. Can't that be translated _you must have been brought up_?


the past tense of must...should be might.. 
anyway, it was not my intention to judge any work of parents of anyone..._brought up _dosen't work..
as Lorena said "I suppose you grew up, I imagine you grew up" and maybe you did, as I did..


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## curiosone

Call it a "hunch" after 30+ years as a simultaneous interpretor/translator.   But if you want to use "must" I think it would sound better as "You must have grown up..."

I'd translate "brought up" as "educato" or "allevato" - not "cresciuto".


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## curiosone

spugnetta.rosa said:


> the past tense of must...should be might..
> anyway, it was not my intention to judge any work of parents of anyone..._brought up _dosen't work..
> as Lorena said "I suppose you grew up, I imagine you grew up" and maybe you did, as I did..



 I don't see "might" as the past of "must."  They have different meanings.
"You must have grown up" translates as  "devi essere cresciuto" but "You might have grown up" translates as "Avresti potuto crescere"

...actually "might" is a very rare example of subjunctive existing in English - which is why we have so much trouble with the "congiuntivo" in Italian.


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## spugnetta.rosa

curiosone said:


> I don't see "might" as the past of "must."  They have different meanings.
> "You must have grown up" translates as  "devi essere cresciuto" but "You might have grown up" translates as "Avresti potuto crescere"


I see..so the correct translation to my sentence "sei giovane come noi quindi dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la tv o leggendo fumetti" is in the end "You must have grown up..like us" which works better than "you probably grew up.."

thank you all


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## curiosone

"Must have" isn't a conditional, which is why I liked your choice of "probably grew up.  If the original Italian had been "Devi eissere cresciuto" I would have translated it as "you must have grown up."


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## You little ripper!

curiosone said:


> Call it a "hunch" after 30+ years as a simultaneous interpretor/translator.


Spugnetta.rosa made it pretty clear that s/he means 'probably' in post 16, so your hunch was right. The reason I queried it is because I couldn't see anything in the original post to indicate that. 



> I'd translate "brought up" as "educato" or "allevato" - not "cresciuto". But if you want to use "must" I think it would sound better as "You must have grown up..."


I don't have a problem with either 'grown up' or 'brought up' in this context.


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## curiosone

Charles Costante said:


> Spugnetta.rosa made it pretty clear that she means 'probably' in post 16, so your hunch was right. The reason I queried it is because I couldn't see anything in the original post to indicate that.
> 
> I don't have a problem with either.



Me neither, actually!


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## You little ripper!

Rereading post 16, spugnetta.rosa hasn't made it clear whether s/he means  'must' or 'probably' (she was talking about 'brought up' versus 'grown  up'). Maybe we need that clarified.


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## cercolumi

Ciao a tutti 
Mi inserisco provo a contestualizzare meglio la frase di Spugnetta.rosa per avere una mia conferma.
Nell'esempio:

A: Ragazzi avete visto l'ultimo film di Spider Man?
F: No, chi è Spider Man?
A: Non ci credo Francesco, non conosci Spider Man? Eppure sei giovane come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti"

Which is the best choice?
you might have grown up
You probably grew up
you must have been brought up

Un grazie per i chiarimenti.


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## You little ripper!

cercolumi said:


> Ciao a tutti
> Mi inserisco provo a contestualizzare meglio la frase di Spugnetta.rosa per avere una mia conferma.
> Nell'esempio:
> 
> A: Ragazzi avete visto l'ultimo film di Spider Man?
> F: No, chi è Spider Man?
> A: Non ci credo Francesco, non conosci Spider Man? Eppure sei giovane  come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti"
> 
> Which is the best choice?
> you might have grown up
> You probably grew up
> you must have been brought up
> 
> Un grazie per i chiarimenti.


Cercolumi, I would use _You must have [grown up]/[been brought up] ......._. in this situation.


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## ALEX1981X

You should have grown up (as a fact that has been expected by someone)


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## curiosone

In the hypothetical context provided by cercolumi (thank you for providing it), the only phrase that works is "*you should have grown up*."  In post 16 rosa specified quite clearly that the verbal phrase was "grow up" (not "brought up").  
I think at this point it's important to clarify the difference in meaning between "*to grow up*" and "*to be brought up.*"

Children are usually *brought up* by their parents (or adults), who teach them how to walk and talk, and who give them an education (moral and scholastic).  Watching TV and reading comic books isn't generally part of this education, but rather part of the times (and environment) children *grow up* in.


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## You little ripper!

curiosone said:


> In the hypothetical context provided by cercolumi (thank you for providing it), the only phrase that works is "*you should have grown up*."   In post 16 rosa specified quite clearly that the verbal phrase was "grow up" (not "brought up"). Rosa obviously isn't aware that *brought up* can be used in this context.
> 
> I think at this point it's important to clarify the difference in meaning between "*to grow up*" and "*to be brought up.*"
> 
> Children are usually *brought up* by their parents (or adults), who teach them how to walk and talk, and who give them an education (moral and scholastic).  Watching TV and reading comic books isn't generally part of this education, but rather part of the times (and environment) children *grow up* in.


 According to the MacMillan dictionary:

bring up

*be brought up on something: *_These kids have been brought up on a diet of junk food and endless television._

A lot of people, besides myself, use it that way. 

brought up watching tv
brought up reading comics
was brought up seeing 
was brought up watching
was brought up reading


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## Pratolini

ALEX1981X said:


> You should have grown up (as a fact that has been expected by someone)



I think the above, for the reason given in brackets, or even "ought to have", is the best translation.


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## effeundici

*you should have grown up* doesn't work here, right? It sounds more like a duty rather than probability. Am I right?


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## Pratolini

effeundici said:


> *you should have grown up* doesn't work here, right? It sounds more like a duty rather than probability. Am I right?


No, it *does* work, because in English it also has the meaning of a probability.  A very likely probability.


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## Pratolini

Charles Costante said:


> According to the MacMillan dictionary:
> 
> bring up
> 
> *be brought up on something: *_These kids have been brought up on a diet of junk food and endless television._
> 
> A lot of people, besides myselfme, use it that way.
> 
> brought up watching tv
> brought up reading comics
> was brought up seeing
> was brought up watching
> was brought up reading


Ciao Charles
"Besides myself" benché sia molto usato, è sbagliato.


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## You little ripper!

Pratolini said:


> Ciao Charles
> "Besides myself" benché sia molto usato, è sbagliato.


Wrong according to conservative grammarians, Pratolini, but quite  acceptable in informal speech.


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## ALEX1981X

Pratolini said:


> No, it *does* work, because in English it also has the meaning of a probability.  A very likely probability.



Thanks for confirming my suggestion.

As far as I know* Should have + past participle* may have 2 different meanings. Depending on the context can express probability in the past (maybe it has happened or maybe not) or an expectation not met, something that didn't happen at all.
In this case I think, as Pratolini confirmed, that -should have grown- is fine enough to express something expected in the mind of the speaker.
However, it can convey a not fulfilled duty of course but not exclusively this.


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## curiosone

Maybe sleeping on it has helped me clear my mind, or perhaps I *should have* finished my "cuppa" (tea) before glancing at this, but at the moment I see that we're talking about SHADES of meaning, here.  Actually all of these variants would probably be okay (tho' I don't like "besides myself" either - if I say "I am beside myself" it means I'm very upset!
).
One thing is clear:  that the original phrase needed context, so I thank cercolumi AGAIN, and will now retranslate HIS context (new day, new translation), and see what comes out. 
*Italian:* 
A: Ragazzi avete visto l'ultimo film di Spider Man?
F: No, chi è Spider Man?
A: Non ci credo Francesco, non conosci Spider Man? Eppure sei giovane come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti"
*English:*
A. Hey guys, have you seen the latest Spider Man movie/flick?
F. No. Who's Spider Man?
A. I cant'/don't believe it, Frank!  Don't you know about Spider Man?  You're the same age we are;  you *must have* *grown up* watching TV and reading comic books!
2
Another way of phrasing this:  "...you must have watched TV and read comic books, growing up." (meaning:  "it was inevitable in our generation").


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## ALEX1981X

curiosone said:


> Maybe sleeping on it has helped me clear my mind, or perhaps I *should have* finished my "cuppa" (tea) before glancing at this, but at the moment I see that we're talking about SHADES of meaning, here.  Actually all of these variants would probably be okay (tho' I don't like "besides myself" either - if I say "I am beside myself" it means I'm very upset!
> ).
> One thing is clear:  that the original phrase needed context, so I thank cercolumi AGAIN, and will now retranslate HIS context (new day, new translation), and see what comes out.
> *Italian:*
> A: Ragazzi avete visto l'ultimo film di Spider Man?
> F: No, chi è Spider Man?
> A: Non ci credo Francesco, non conosci Spider Man? Eppure sei giovane come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti"
> *English:*
> A. Hey guys, have you seen the latest Spider Man movie/flick?
> F. No. Who's Spider Man?
> A. I cant'/don't believe it, Frank!  Don't you know about Spider Man?  You're the same age we are;  you *must have* *grown up* watching TV and reading comic books!
> 2
> Another way of phrasing this:  "...you must have watched TV and read comic books, growing up." (meaning:  "it was inevitable in our generation").



Curiosone obviously the use of "Must" here convey a stronger certainty compared to -should have-. With "should have" there's still room for mistake and it is something still "probable". 
"Must have" on the other hand, is an option, correct for sure and it's a little more "empiric" and certain to me.
Are you impling that "should have" is wrong in some way in this context ??


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## curiosone

No, I'm not trying to imply anything of the sort.  I just decided to apply my own technique for translating, which is to relax, clear my head, and see what comes out.
As you suggest, the reason to (in the end) prefer "must" is simply to avoid misinterpretation.  However we're really nit-picking here  (cercando il pelo nell'uovo).


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## cercolumi

Sono d'accordo curiosone, alla fine credo sia un discorso di sfumature e che entrambe restituiscano egregiamente il significato.
Volendo fare un'ulteriore distinzione direi:
_Eppure sei giovane come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti_. Non è possibile che tu non sia cresciuto/devi pur essere cresciuto  *you must have grown up*
_Eppure sei giovane come noi, dovresti essere cresciuto guardando la TV o leggendo fumetti_. Mi è quasi impossibile credere che tu non sia cresciuto  *you should have grown up*
La frase a mio giudizio è aperta ad entrambe le interpretazioni. In italiano a volte usiamo dei _dovresti_ anche quando in realtà il senso della frase restituisce dei_ devi_.
_Dovresti proprio darti una mossa, non puoi passare le giornate a guardare la tv e mangiare schifezze._

Un grazie a tutti per gli interventi


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