# Залесье



## Fresie

Hi everybody,

Any fantasy fans here? 

I need your help again, I'm afraid. Залесье, in a Russian fantasy novel, is the name of a medieval-type village which means something along the lines of "the place beyond the woods". It's one-word and sounds charmingly poetic. Any ideas how one could translate a place name like this into English without losing its brevity or charm? Tolkien immediately springs to mind but I feel completely blocked...

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Rosett

"Zalesia" should be good for the given purpose. It is one-word yet charmingly poetic (and fictitious, too.)

He-Man.org - Universe Guide - Ruins of Zalesia
Ruins of Zalesia. Episode Appearnces (in production order): "Lessons" "The Price of Deceit" "Second Skin"

In order to make it more English, you may want to consider "Thalesia," which is still phonetic.


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## Enquiring Mind

Hmm, in most cases translating the name is not recommended practice. No-one (who wants to be taken seriously) attempts to translate Ясная Поляна as a place name, for example. They transliterate it and since it, too, is "charmingly poetic" in its own way, the meaning is often explained on first mention. Another issue is whether the translation is intended for an AE- or other English-speaking audience, as there are socio-cultural considerations here. Anything ending in -_ville_, for example, loses all semblance of poetry to my (BE) ear.

Maybe "Woodside", or "Tanglewood" ...? Or go back to the Latin "silva/sylva" and call it "Sylvaria", though that might sound too much like a disease (malaria) or a rash (urticaria) and thus lose the "poetry" altogether. "Sylvania" makes you wonder if Dracula lives there .


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## Fresie

Thank you very much, guys!

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that translating the names of existing locations is definitely not a good practice. However, this is a work of fiction set in a generic Western medieval fantasy world, so using a Russian word might actually be a bit confusing. That's how the villagers themselves call their place, after all, and the word is only Russian because the book was written by a Russian author .

So in this particular case, I strongly believe it can and should be translated... but HOW???  Tanglewood admittedly sounds very nice...


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## Rosett

Enquiring Mind said:


> "Sylvania" makes you wonder if Dracula lives there .


Then Transylvania ("Залесье") is really good since Dracula lived there.

"In the English-speaking world it has been commonly associated with vampires, chiefly due to the influence of Bram Stoker's famous novel _Dracula_ as well as the many later film adaptations"
Transylvania - Wikipedia

It used to be Russian land in the Medieval World - to align with the context.


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## CrownDweller

I like Tanglewood, it sounds mysterious. Backwood(s) might also capture the "ring" of the original name.


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## Rosett

CrownDweller said:


> I like Tanglewood, it sounds mysterious. Backwood(s) might also capture the "ring" of the original name.


There is no woods in Залесье. It is an open land beyond the woods.


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## CrownDweller

The issue here is the ring of mystery and remoteness. It's about a fantasy novel.


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## CrownDweller

Rosett said:


> There is no woods in Залесье. It is an open land beyond the woods.



There aren't necessarily any woods in backwoods either btw. In a general sense the word could refer to a swampy or mountainous area, or basically anything, as long as it's a remote place (Ru: глухое место, глушь). If there's anything wrong with the name Backwoods, it's that it might have a negative and depressing connotation. The context of a fantasy / fairy tale might fix that though, and add a humorous ring to it.


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## Rosett

CrownDweller said:


> There aren't necessarily any woods in backwoods either btw. In a general sense the word could refer to a swampy or mountainous area, or basically anything, as long as it's a remote place (Ru: глухое место, глушь). If there's anything wrong with the name Backwoods, it's that it might have a negative and depressing connotation. The context of a fantasy / fairy tale might fix that though, and add a humorous ring to it.


Russian "Залесье" does not allude to "глухое место, глушь", nor to any imaginable remote place.
Basically, Залесье (with Ополье) stands for Russia's main historical core, even in the modern times, and is not, by no means, to be confused with Tanglewoods, Backwoods, or Robin Hoods.
Zalesye - Wikipedia
"В «Задонщине» земля Залесская имеет уже своим центром Москву[2]."
So that, you may want render it even with "Old Moscow" as opposed to new one.


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## CrownDweller

Rosett said:


> Russian "Залесье" does not allude to "глухое место, глушь", nor to any imaginable remote place.
> Basically, Залесье (with Ополье) stands for Russia's main historical core, even in the modern times, and is not, by no means, to be confused with Tanglewoods, Backwoods, nor Robin Hoods.
> Zalesye - Wikipedia
> "В «Задонщине» земля Залесская имеет уже своим центром Москву[2]."
> So that, you may want render it even with "Old Moscow" as opposed to new one.



Залесье: Местность за лесом, среди лесов - Толковый словарь Ефремовой Залесье - это... Что такое Залесье?

There are also numerous villages with the same name: Залесье (значения) - это... Что такое Залесье (значения)? . The context here is a medieval village in a fantasy novel. You're right, it doesn't necessarily have to imply remoteness, it could be based on any of those villages, but in the context of medieval + fantasy, Залесье in its literal sense, "behind the forest" i.e. a remote place (more or less the same thing as "the backwoods"), doesn't seem that far-fetched. I can only assume that Залесье in the sense you describe was named so by the Kievans, who saw it as a remote area, away from what they thought of as "civilization". But I'm not sure about that.

I agree with you that глушь is way too strong a word in this context, it would be normally translated with "wilderness" in English, and after all there's a village here. But "backwoods" and "back country" have a much broader meaning, they're just remote places which may or may not be populated.


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## Rosett

CrownDweller said:


> Залесье: Местность за лесом, среди лесов - Толковый словарь Ефремовой Залесье - это... Что такое Залесье?


You quoted "залесье" - not "Залесье", which is a proper name, not to be confused with common nouns.


CrownDweller said:


> There are also countless towns and villages with the same name: Залесье (значения) - это... Что такое Залесье (значения)? . The context here is a medieval village in a fantasy novel. You're right, it doesn't necessarily have to imply remoteness, it could be based on any of those villages, but in the context of medieval + fantasy, Залесье in its literal sense, "behind the forest" i.e. a remote place (more or less the same thing as "the backwoods"), doesn't seem that far-fetched. I can only assume that Залесье in the sense you describe was named so by the Kievans, who saw it as a remote area, away from what they thought of as "civilization". But I'm not sure about that.


In the Middle Ages (in XII century,) Moscow was technically a medieval walled village founded in 1147. A few modern Russian towns around Moscow include Залесье, or Ополье place names: Переяславль-Залесский, Юрьев-Опольский, Ярополч-Залесский.
"После распада Руси на самостоятельные княжества (вторая треть XII века) в Залесье начался интенсивный процесс формирования самостоятельной государственности, являвшейся прямой предшественницей современной российской государственности".
Залесье — Википедия
Залесье is Russia's heartland. "В новейшее время некоторые города Залесья образуют Золотое кольцо России."

I'd like to see the novel, its historical canvas.


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## CrownDweller

Rosett said:


> You quoted "залесье" - not "Залесье", which is a proper name, not to be confused with common nouns.
> 
> In the Middle Ages (in XII century,) Moscow was technically a medieval walled village founded in 1147. A few modern Russian towns around Moscow include Залесье, or Ополье place names: Переяславль-Залесский, Юрьев-Опольский, Ярополч-Залесский.
> "После распада Руси на самостоятельные княжества (вторая треть XII века) в Залесье начался интенсивный процесс формирования самостоятельной государственности, являвшейся прямой предшественницей современной российской государственности".
> Залесье — Википедия
> Залесье is Russia's heartland. "В новейшее время некоторые города Залесья образуют Золотое кольцо России."
> 
> I'd like to see the novel, its historical canvas.



Is it possible for you to imagine that in a FAIRY TALE the name Залесье might hold a hint to the original meaning of the word залесье, a place "behind the woods"? We're talking about an imaginary village here, so it apparently has nothing to do with any historical region. It's an entirely different context. I did already read the wiki page myself, and it says nothing about why the area around current-day Moscow was called that. I guess it's lost in the mists of time.

That uppercase 'З' was the result of a copy/paste action (just like this one, incidentally). A lowercase 'з' would have been more correct indeed. And if you're really going to to be pedantic, you could note that there's no such thing as "more correct"


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## Q-cumber

Scrublandia 
Farwoodside 
Zawoodye


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## arn00b

Hinterwood(s) is a good translation and is actually a real place name.

You could make it Hinderwood (more English) or Hinterwald (more Germanic).  Hinterwald is also a real place name.

I would steer clear of "backwood(s)" - it's used to mean remote area far from any settlement, somewhere where there is no one.  It also is used to mean uncivilized, uncultured, unsophisticated, rural, etc.  Compare it with "backwater."  

Back here is more "backwards," "left back" and "left behind" than "beyond."


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## Fresie

Oh wow, thank you very much! This is an amazing discussion! I've learned lots of new things. I had no idea about the Golden Ring and I did travel there.

Hinterwood sounds great, I agree. Thank you so much, arn00b! Thanks a lot, everyone! Have a nice Sunday!


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## Rosett

CrownDweller said:


> Is it possible for you to imagine that in a FAIRY TALE the name Залесье might hold a hint to the original meaning of the word залесье, a place "behind the woods"? We're talking about an imaginary village here, so it apparently has nothing to do with any historical region. It's an entirely different context. I did already read the wiki page myself, and it says nothing about why the area around current-day Moscow was called that. I guess it's lost in the mists of time.
> 
> That uppercase 'З' was the result of a copy/paste action (just like this one, incidentally). A lowercase 'з' would have been more correct indeed. And if you're really going to to be pedantic, you could note that there's no such thing as "more correct"


While "more correct" is not possible in English or in German, it is pretty common in Russian. That's why your conclusions are not getting beyond that point.
Everything is possible in fairy tales, except of Russian fairy tales with Russian place names. Only Russian names make such a novel Russian. Any attempt to use a kind of "woods" would immediately take it far away from Russia, "за тридевять земель", or  something like _Шкрябляндия_, иже с ними.





Q-cumber said:


> Scrublandia



There is some ideologically biased explanations why so: Как златоверхий Киев «откочевал» в Залесье | Исторический форум "Белые пятна истории"
"Главной причиной оппозиционности Суздальского Залесья против Руси были ... естественные геополитические интересы нового народа, который родился в Залесье от сплава финно-угорских племен, под воздействием церковнославянского языка и первичной киевской администрации", and "Что в действительности имеет место, так это определенный повтор названий Киевщины и Переяславщины в именах собственных полдесятка старинных городов Центральной России".


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## Q-cumber

Rosett said:


> While "more correct" is not possible in English or in German, it is pretty common in Russian. That's why your conclusions are not getting further than that.
> Everything is possible in fairy tales, except of Russian fairy tales with Russian place names. Only Russian names make such a novel Russian. Any kind of "woods" would take it far away from Russia, "за тридевять земель".
> There is some ideologically biased explanations why so.
> Как златоверхий Киев «откочевал» в Залесье | Исторический форум "Белые пятна истории"


Yes, I also think so. Just imagine a Tolkien's book with all the names 'properly translated'.


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## Rosett

Q-cumber said:


> Yes, I also think so. Just imagine a Tolkien's book with all the names 'properly translated'.


Apparently, this thread is not about Tolkien's books - it is rather about some undisclosed medieval fantasies about Russian lands that exploit real historical place names, as shown above.


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## rusita preciosa

arn00b said:


> Hinterwood(s)


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## Rosett

Fresie said:


> Hinterwood sounds great, I agree.





rusita preciosa said:


>


What Hinterwood has to do with Russian Залесье?

Example Про любовь в Средние века:
_Две равно уважаемых семьи в Вероне, Залесье**, где встречают нас событья, ведут междоусобные бои и не хотят унять кровопролитья.

** Залесье - средневековое название русских земель._


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## Fresie

Dear Rosett,

Thank you very much! Let me repeat that this is a fantasy novel set in a fictional Western European medieval "world". The original Russian author used Залесье (in the Russian original of the novel) as a generic placename which sounded sufficiently poetic. My job was to find a similar expression in English as I translated it into English.

So the historically Russian Залесье has nothing to do with it whatsoever, it only reared its head here as part of the discussion.

Thank you very much!


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