# Persian: بناى اين مسجد جامع در عهد سلطان الاعظم



## deep_kap

Can anyone translate this image from Arabic to English?
Here I attached an image file, which is snippet written in Arabic language.


----------



## AndyRoo

Hi,

I don't think it is Arabic. It might be Persian. Where is the mosque?


----------



## fdb

Yes, it is Persian. It commemorates the building of the Friday mosque by a king called Muḥammad ibn Luṭf-shāh in the year 736 of the hijra. I agree that it would help if you could tell us where it is. Presumably India?


----------



## PersoLatin

There doesn't seem to be a verb for the initial section, which to me is the only Persian part بناى اين مسجد جامع در عهد سلطان الاعظمه, anyway I can't find one, can anyone else?

The rest is a long string of genealogy of محمد ابن لطفشاه, mainly in Arabic and finally a date.


----------



## fdb

There is an implicit copula: "The building of this Friday mosque [was] in the age of...."


----------



## Stranger_

بنای این مسجد جامع در عهد سلطان الاعظم ابوالمجاهد محمد بن لطفشاه السلطان کما خه فی بوته صدر المشایخ فخر الحق و الدین ابوبکر محمد مسعد امیر عرب ادا امر الله من میا برکاته تم و بنا بعون الله تعالی یوم الجمعه الرابع العشر جمادی الثانی 736


----------



## PersoLatin

^ I wonder when we can draw the line and say a text is 'Persian' and when we can say, it is not, why can't we say this is Urdu or early Urdu?

Structurally only بنای این مسجد جامع در عهد سلطان is Persian, unless of course the rest is Arabic in the style used by Persians, can someone clarify this please.


----------



## cherine

Stranger_ said:


> بنای این مسجد جامع در عهد سلطان الاعظم ابوالمجاهد محمد بن لطفشاه السلطان کما خه فی بوته صدر المشایخ فخر الحق و الدین ابوبکر محمد مسعد امیر عرب ادا امر الله من میا برکاته تم و بنا بعون الله تعالی یوم الجمعه الرابع العشر جمادی الثانی 736


The first part is not [purely] Arabic, سلطان الأعظم would be السلطان الأعظم in correct Arabi. The part كما خه في بوتة is not Arabic. صدر المشايخ (head/best? of the sheikhs) is a title that is correct Arabic, and the same for فخر الحق والدين (pride of the truth and the religion). I'm not sure about أمير عرب, it should be أمير العرب (prince of the Arabs) if it were Arabic, but if it's Persian or Urdu, I think it means that he's an Arab prince (?).
The last part is Arabic
أدام الله ميامن بركاته، وتم بناه بعون الله تعالى يوم الجمعة الرابع العشر جمادى الثاني سنة 736
May God make the good of his blessings last for ever. The structure/building was done/finished on Friday the 14th (again, in correct Arabic it should be الرابع عشر not العشر) of Jumada ath-thani, of the year 736.


----------



## PersoLatin

^ Thanks cherine. Maybe another language category needs to be added: hybrid(mangled) Persian/Arabic


----------



## eskandar

PersoLatin said:


> ^ I wonder when we can draw the line and say a text is 'Persian' and when we can say, it is not, why can't we say this is Urdu or early Urdu?


Nothing to do with Urdu; there are no Urdu words and no Urdu syntax used here. By the way, early Urdu has little Persian in it, like how early New Persian reflects much less Arabic influence.


----------



## Stranger_

Bravo cherine, you unraveled one of its vague parts.



> I'm not sure about أمير عرب, it should be أمير العرب (prince of the Arabs) if it were Arabic, but if it's Persian or Urdu, I think it means that he's an Arab prince (?).


No, it means the same in Persian and Urdu as well but it should be read as "amir-e arab" with the same meaning: "prince of the Arabs".

This part is still not clear though: "کما خه فی بوته".


----------



## PersoLatin

eskandar said:


> Nothing to do with Urdu...


Thanks for clarifying it isn't Urdu, I am still struggling to find the language the author was thinking s/he is writing in. 



eskandar said:


> there are no Urdu words and no Urdu syntax used here.


For my benefit, can you explain why this part بناى اين مسجد جامع در عهد couldn't be considered as Urdu?


----------



## eskandar

PersoLatin said:


> Thanks for clarifying it isn't Urdu, I am still struggling to find the language the author was thinking s/he is writing in.


It's Persian with some code-switching into Arabic. This is extremely common in older Persian texts, not just those from India but from Iran as well.



> For my benefit, can you explain why this part بناى اين مسجد جامع در عهد couldn't be considered as Urdu?


It's a Persian sentence, it uses Persian vocabulary and syntax, it's just missing one implied word as fdb explained above. Urdu doesn't use Persian prepositions like اين or در except in certain fixed phrases. Here's how that part would look in Urdu: سلطان  الاعظم کے عہد میں اس جامع مسجد کی بنا .


----------



## farasso0

كلمه بعد از في، ئوبة نيست؟


----------



## PersoLatin

eskandar said:


> It's a Persian sentence, it uses Persian vocabulary and syntax, it's just missing one implied word as fdb explained above. Urdu doesn't use Persian prepositions like اين or در except in certain fixed phrases. Here's how that part would look in Urdu: سلطان الاعظم کے عہد میں اس جامع مسجد کی بنا .


Thanks again for clarifying it. I am not at all familiar with the Urdu syntax, but had assumed, in short bursts/sentences, Urdu can sometimes look similar or identical to Persian.

With regards to the copula, I can understand it with regards to the Persian section, i.e. the first 6 words, but based on cherine"s translation of the (purely) Arabic section in post #8, there seems to be an explicit verb, stating its completion date.


----------



## cherine

PersoLatin said:


> ^ Thanks cherine. Maybe another language category needs to be added: hybrid(mangled) Persian/Arabic


 I was just thinking we could add "Arabic" as a tag to such threads where Arabic is mixed with Persian and/or Urdu. I really can't tell where the line can be drawn in such mixtures, so maybe just adding the tag can help tell that there is such a mixture.


Stranger_ said:


> Bravo cherine, you unraveled one of its vague parts.


Thank you, Stranger.


> No, it means the same in Persian and Urdu as well but it should be read as "amir-e arab" with the same meaning: "prince of the Arabs".


Thanks again.


> This part is still not clear though: "کما خه فی بوته".


I'm actually not sure we're reading this correctly. This في بوته could be في نوبة? But still not clear what it would mean.


PersoLatin said:


> there seems to be an explicit verb, stating its completion date.


Yes, it's the part تم بناه :
- the word بناه can also be بِناؤُه = its construction (Edit: The word _is_ actually بناؤه just without the hamza over the و).
- تم was done/finished


----------



## fdb

Much credit to Stranger and to Cherine, who together have succeeded in reading most of the inscription. I was hoping that the initiator of this thread would get back to us with information about where the inscription can be found, but this has not happened. I have researched the matter, but have not managed to identify this king. From the date I would have imagined him to be one of the rulers of the Delhi Sultanate, but the name does not match any of them.

I think Cherine is right to read _nawba_, which here seems to mean something like “age, era”. The title _ʼamīr al-ʽarab_ is known from mediaeval Syria, where it designates the commander of the Bedouin contingent of the army, but I have not encountered it in India. Or maybe it refers to Ali? I am still baffled by كما خير. Maybe an Indian name? Otherwise the meaning is fairly clear: the inscription mentions the king, but also some other person, who I suspect is the king’s spiritual guide (his titles are all religious, not dynastic). Here is my go at (almost) the whole thing:

"The construction of this Friday Mosque (was) in the time of as-sulṭān al-ʼaʽẓam Abū l-Mujāhid Muḥammad son of Luṭfshāh as-sulṭān … in the age of Ṣadr al-mashāyikh Fakhr al-ḥaqq wa d-dīn Abū Bakr (son of?) Muḥammad, the helper of the Commander of the Arabs, may God perpetuate the good fortune of his blessing. And the construction was completed with the help of God almighty on Friday, the 14th of Jumādā II of the year 736."


----------



## Stranger_

^
Isn't "مسعد mis'ad" too a name there? (It is a popular name in Saudi Arabia and UAE) and if it meant "helper", then should it not have been "مساعد musaa'ed" instead?


----------



## fdb

I think it is musʽid (participle form IV).


----------



## cherine

It is a name, but I see two fat7as (sorry, not sure about how you call them in Persian) مسَعَد but the one over the س seems strange/hard to pronounce, so I think the name is mas3ad.


----------



## molana

cherine said:


> two fat7as (sorry, not sure about how you call them in Persian)


The Persians would say فتحه, کسره, ضمه, and سکون, too.


cherine said:


> It is a name, but I see two fat7as (sorry, not sure about how you call them in Persian) *مسَعَد* but the one over the س seems strange/hard to pronounce, so I think the name is mas3ad.


In the image, there is a سکون between the two فتحه. So it is pronounced as _mas3ad _as you said_, _or _mas'ad _as we the Persians pronounce it.




farasso0 said:


> كلمه بعد از في، ئوبة نيست؟


I read it as یٶ ته.


----------



## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> ۔۔۔۔ I am still baffled by كما خير. Maybe an Indian name?


Could this be "kamaa xarra.."....as he prostrated...?
بنا این مسجد جامع در عھد سلطان الاعظم ابوالمجاھد محمد بن لطفشاہ السلطان کما خر في نوبة صدر المشائخ فخرالحق والدین ابوبکر محمد مسعد امیر عرب ادام اللہ میامن بركاته وتم بناه بعون الله تعالى يوم الجمعة الرابع العشر جمادى الثاني سنة 736


----------



## cherine

No, it's clearly خه not خر even if your suggestion would help solve the mystery. You can compare the second letter to other words ending with haa2 and words with raa2, the difference is really clear here.


----------



## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> No, it's clearly خه not خر even if your suggestion would help solve the mystery. You can compare the second letter to other words ending with haa2 and words with raa2, the difference is really clear here.


Two more suggestions:

1) کُماخ which means "pride" but I don't know how one could link "کماخه" to it.

2) کماخه is apparently a town/city in Azerbaijan.


----------

