# Hindi, Urdu: Bîwî vs. Bîbî



## Cilquiestsuens

Hello,

Once more, Pyaare Bhaaiyo Beheno, I need your lights....


In the Standard Urdu I know, the modern one used in Pk :

*Bîwî* - means wife

*Bîbî* - is a polite term of adress akin to 'lady', mainly used by servants.... *chhoTî Bîbî* / *baRî Bîbî* (sometimes, shortened to *bî*, if I'm not mistaken) 

I had no problem with that till the day I met a Hindi walla who apparently says Bîbî for wife....

How is it in Hindi ?

And please correct me if the above explanations for Urdu are wrong


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## Illuminatus

Hindi mein bhi shabd Beewi hi hai, par adhiktar log beebi bol-chaal ki bhasha mein beebi hi bolte hain.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Illuminatus said:


> Hindi mein bhi shabd Beewi hi hai, par adhiktar log beebi bol-chaal ki bhasha mein beebi hi bolte hain.


 

acha, aur hindi mein konsa likhaa jaataa hai, beebii, beevi ya donon ?


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## Illuminatus

Kyonki shabd Biwi hi hai, isliye likhte samay hamesha _biwi (बीवी) _likhte hain. Vaise yah shabd adhiktar sirf bol-chaal ki bhasha mein hi prayog hota hai. Likhte samay _Patni_ ka aam-taur par jyada prayog hota hai.


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## panjabigator

<mai.n Iluminatus se sahemat huu.n.  pan.jaab me.n bahut log istriiyo.n ko "biibii jii" prayog karte hai.n aur us me.n bahut aadar hot hai>


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## Illuminatus

A small correction.

EITHER
<mai.n Iluminatus se sahemat huu.n. pan.jaab me.n bahut log istriiyo.n ko ke liye "biibii jii" prayog karte hai.n aur us me.n bahut aadar hot*a* hai>

OR


<mai.n Iluminatus se sahemat huu.n. pan.jaab me.n bahut log istriiyo.n ko "biibii jii" prayog karte (kah kar) bulate hai.n aur us me.n bahut aadar hot*a* hai>


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## panjabigator

Thank you


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## Qureshpor

In a recent Persian thread, one of the participants stated that "we also use <بی بی>" for grandmother. My understanding of "biivii" and "biibii" is as per Cilquiestsuens SaaHib's opening post. In the Punjab (at least), females of the older or bygone generation had "Bii" (and Biibii) as their second name, e.g. Xurshaid Bii (Xurshaid = Urdu Xurshiid). Are biivii and biibii connected or are they seperate, perhaps "biibii" being Persian? Is "bii" used amongst Urdu speakers?


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## lcfatima

I heard in some films and and an Urdu drama that Sikh Punjabis use bey-bey for old aunt. Is this the same word?


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> I heard in some films and and an Urdu drama that Sikh Punjabis use bey-bey for old aunt. Is this the same word?


No "be be" (or just "be" on occasions) is TheTh Punjabi for mother, at least in Western Punjab. It has practically become extinct because the newer generation feel it is too "rustic" (dare I say peNDuu) and use "ammii" or "ammaaN" instead.


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## UrduMedium

I don't hear it much these days, but _bii _is part of Urdu usage, as an honorific affix. For example, _xaalah bii, bii aapaa, baRii bii_, and so on.

I feel _biibii _is less common at least in Karachi Urdu than _bii_.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Is "bii" used amongst Urdu speakers?



Quite a lot by Urdu speakers in India.



			
				QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> It has practically become extinct because the newer generation feel it is too "rustic" ...



Not the case in eastern Punjab: "bebe" is still used a lot, including by youngsters, for mother. It is also a common word in Hindi programmes showing Punjabi families.


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## panjabigator

> Originally Posted by *QURESHPOR
> *It has practically become extinct because the newer generation feel it is too "rustic" ...



That word is still alive and kickin' in Eastern Punjab.


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## tarkshya

I am reading "Aag ka Darya" by Qurratulain Hyder these days, and I am astonished to find that she used "biibii" to mean "wife". I read and reread the line multiple times, and it is clear that she really meant "biiwii". I would think that an acclaimed writer of Urdu would be aware of the difference in meaning of the two words, but then, what do you know!


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## tonyspeed

tarkshya said:


> I am reading "Aag ka Darya" by Qurratulain Hyder these days, and I am astonished to find that she used "biibii" to mean "wife". I read and reread the line multiple times, and it is clear that she really meant "biiwii". I would think that an acclaimed writer of Urdu would be aware of the difference in meaning of the two words, but then, what do you know!




Important to remember that in the pre-modern phase of North Indian colloquial language w/v was often replaced by b. To me, one of the greatest changes when standardising the colloquial language into written form was the assertion that w-forms are correct and b-forms are incorrect. Of course, not all b-forms have left us...barsaat, baat, bintii, bistar
I presume that the w-correctness of modern speech is imported from comparison with Persian and Sanskrit. However, the tendency of w->b that developed over hundreds of years cannot be so easily erased.


P H بی بی बीबी _bībī_, s.f. Lady, dame, madam; *wife;* mistress; a term of endearment:—_bibī jī_, s.f. Husband's sister, sister-in-law:—_bībī-jī_, _bībī ṣāḥib_, intj. (A respectful form of address), Lady! Madam!

_The Indo-Aryan Languages_ by Danesh Jain states a major phonological change of Modern Standard Hindi when compared to Hindi's ancestor is "the substitution of b for v, the effects of which are obscured by the reintroduction into MSH of tatsama lexemes containing v (e.g. MSH byaah (wedding) : MIA,OIA vivaha, but also MSH vivaah)". It also states "In many instances natural developments affecting one or another level of the language have been offset by the reintroduction of Sanskrit forms or constructions, thus reintroducing contrasts that were lost earlier".

From this we can assume that all v/w words in Hindi/Urdu are borrowings from Sanskrit or Persian/Arabic. There is no v in tadbhava words. Which leads me to ask, where does _voh,vah_ come from? Is this some exception?


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## Khaanabadosh

The 1962 bollywood film was titled - साहिब बीबी और ग़ुलाम. Not sure if it's meant to be understood from perspective of master - master, (his) wife and (his) servant or from perspective of servant - (servant's) master, (servant's) lady and servant!

"Aag ka Darya" was also from around the same time 1958, so I guess the usage was more fluid back then compared to now.


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## mundiya

tonyspeed said:


> From this we can assume that all v/w words in Hindi/Urdu are borrowings from Sanskrit or Persian/Arabic. There is no v in tadbhava words. Which leads me to ask, where does _voh,vah_ come from? Is this some exception?



That's not an appropriate conclusion. A v>b shift occurs in many words, but there are also many tadbhava words with v.


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## tonyspeed

mundiya said:


> That's not an appropriate conclusion. A v>b shift occurs in many words, but there are also many tadbhava words with v.



*The Indo-Aryan Languages* by Masica states "However, both Iyl and Iwl do exist in Hindi outside of diphthongs (i .e. initially) , albeit only in deictics (again, leaving aside loans)."
If you realise that words like dev were pronunonced deo, then a pattern starts to form. Even in Hindi, I feel there are some dialects where _vo _sounds more like _o_.

It continues about borrowed sounds :
"Another characteristic of the secondary phonemes is that, except in Urdu,
where they are as it were part of the very definition of the language, they are to
varying degrees always liable to be replaced by a native NIA sound by at least
some speakers: f by Iphl, v (where this sound is foreign) by Ibl or even Ibhl, z by
Ij!, X by Ikhl, q by Ikl, |G| by Igl, |SH| by ls|, Ish| or kh , sh by ls|, |N| by Inl."


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## bakshink

Very interesting discussion but wonder why no one has said or perhaps no one knows that " Bibi" in Punajbi means "sweat- adorable" also. Bibi Kudi, Biba Munda, Bibi Rani


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