# both... and



## ger4

An interesting thread called neither... nor made me wonder how the opposite - 'both... and' - is expressed in different languages. As an example, how would you translate a simple sentence like 'they drink both tea and coffee'?

In Danish, it is very similar to English: _De drikker både te og kaffe_ (both ... and)

In German: _Sie trinken sowohl Tee als auch Kaffee_ (so well ... as also)

Estonian: _Nad joovad nii teed kui kohvi_ (so ... as)

Thanks in advance!


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## apmoy70

In Greek it's as simple as it gets:

*«Και»* [ce]....*«και»* [ce] --> _and...and
«Πίνουν και καφέ και τσάι»_ [ˈpinun ce kaˈfe ce ˈʦ͡a.i] --> lit. _they drink and coffee and tea_

-Conj. *«και»* [ce] < Classical conj. *«καὶ» kaì* --> _also, even, and_ (with obscure etymology)


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## 810senior

In Japanese, it would be written as AもBも(even A, even B).
e.g. 彼らはお茶もコーヒーも嗜んでいます。(they like to drink even tea, even coffee)


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## franknagy

I have started already an another thread about the topic.
The Hungarian counterpart is *sem ... sem ...*
Examples from the Hungarian poetry:
1) http://www.babelmatrix.org/works/hu...dja,_sem_boldog_őse/en/25228-I_d_like_to_hold
2) http://www.babelmatrix.org/works/hu/József_Attila-1905/Tiszta_szívvel/en/31107-From_a_pure_heart


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## ger4

@franknagy Thanks a lot for the links to the babelmatrix website. I've just edited my original post, it wasn't clear enough and could easily be misunderstood. In this thread I'd like to find out the opposite, i.e.  how different languages express something like 'both A and B'.


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## Dymn

Catalan: _Beuen __tant__ te __com_ _cafè _(so much ... as)

Spanish: _Beben tanto te como café _(so much ... as)

However this example may sound unnatural, because some people would think that we refer to 'They drink as much tea as coffee'. Since _tant(o) _as in the last sentence (unlike _tant(o) _for 'both A and B') is inflected by gender and number this ambiguity only appears in masculine uncountable nouns (countable ones will take an article).


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## Sobakus

Russian follows the Greek example here:
_Они пьют и чай и кофе._
In the more formal style, a construction mirroring (complete with inversion ) the Romance one can be used:
_Они пьют как чай, так и кофе._


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## Armas

Holger2014 said:


> Estonian: _Nad joovad nii teed kui kohvi_ (so ... as)



Finnish:

He juovat niin teetä kuin kahvia(kin). - so X as Y (too)
He juovat sekä teetä että kahvia. - and X and Y -- note that the most common word _ja_ "and" is not used here
He juovat teetä niin kuin kahviakin. - X so as Y too
He juovat yhtä hyvin teetä kuin kahvia. - As well X as Y

The first two are the most common and the last one is rare.


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## ger4

Thanks for all the replies! Some of the patterns seem to be:

so well A / as also B - German
so A / as B - Estonian, Finnish
so A / as B too - Finnish
and A / and B - Greek, Russian, Finnish
so much A / as B - Catalan, Spanish
how A / so and B - Russian
as well A / as B - Finnish
as well A / and B - Danish
also A / and also B - Hebrew
A and B both - Japanese
A even / B even - Japanese
A so as / B too - Finnish

(as always, corrections / additions welcome...)


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## myšlenka

Holger2014 said:


> Thanks for all the replies! Some of the patterns seem to be:
> 
> both A / and B  - English, Danish
> so well A / as also B - German
> so A / as B - Estonian, Finnish
> .....
> (as always, corrections / additions welcome...)


In spite of the orthographic and etymological similarity, I don't think Danish _både_ means "both". The best translation is probably "as well as".

_De drikker både te og kaffe - _they drink tea as well as coffee.


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## 810senior

@Holger2014, I've got to add another equivalent expressed in "A and B both(AとBの両方 or AとB両方)" in addition to the existing one.
e.g. 魚料理*と*肉料理、*両方*いただけます。(you can eat both fish and meat dishes here. lit. you can eat fish *and *meat dishes *both *here.)


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## amikama

Hebrew: *גם...‏ וגם...‏* (lit. also... and also...)

They drink both tea and coffee
הם שותים גם תה וגם קפה


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## ger4

myšlenka said:


> In spite of the orthographic and etymological similarity, I don't think Danish _både_ means "both". The best translation is probably "as well as".
> 
> _De drikker både te og kaffe - _they drink tea as well as coffee.


Thanks, I'll edit the summary in #9 (of course 'both' is normally translated as 'begge') I was trying to find literal translations but this is sometimes impossible...
@810senior,  @amikama Thanks for your additions!


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## ThomasK

Holger2014 said:


> An interesting thread called neither... nor made me wonder how the opposite - 'both... and' - is expressed in different languages. As an example, how would you translate a simple sentence like 'they drink both tea and coffee'?
> 
> In German: _Sie trinken sowohl Tee als auch Kaffee_ (so well ... as also)
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Dutch: ze drinken *zowel* thee *als* koffie.


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## Encolpius

Hungarian  is...és is... [too...and too...] or mind...mind [all...all..]

Teát *is* *és *kávét* is* isznak.


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## Zsanna

The "mind A, mind B" version is OK in general but it doesn't go very well in the given example. (It may depend simply on the word order or another factor, like the role of the words "both" refers to within the sentence.)
If *both* is fully expressed in the form of *mindkettő *(= *all two*, in our sentence followed by the suffix "t", indicating the accusative, see below), you can have a combination of that and what Encolpius gave above:

Mindkettőt isszák: teát is, kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too, coffee too.)
or
Mindkettőt isszák: teát is _és_ kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too _and_ coffee, too.)

_És_ (= and) seems to be optional, doesn't change the structure or the meaning.
(In fact, even in Encolpius's example above it is the case. You could just say it without the _and_/_és_: Teát is, kávét is isznak. )


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## Gavril

Armas said:


> Finnish:
> He juovat sekä teetä että kahvia. - and X and Y -- note that the most common word _ja_ "and" is not used here



It might be worth mentioning that the word _että_ is only translated as "and" in the above context (to my knowledge). Otherwise, its main translation is "that", as used to introduce a noun clause: for example, _Hän sanoi, että oli tullut aikaisin =_ "He said that he had come early".

Therefore, "and X that Y" might be a more literal reading (in English) of _sekä X että Y._


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## ger4

Thanks and köszönöm for your replies. 


Zsanna said:


> ...
> If *both* is fully expressed in the form of *mindkettő *(= *all two*, in our sentence followed by the suffix "t", indicating the accusative, see below), you can have a combination of that and what Encolpius gave above:
> 
> Mindkettőt isszák: teát is, kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too, coffee too.)
> or
> Mindkettőt isszák: teát is _és_ kávét is. (Both they drink: tea too _and_ coffee, too.)
> ...


That reminds me of another German version we sometimes use in everyday speech, with the object in first position for emphasis: _Beides trinken sie: Tee und Kaffee_ - "both drink they: tea and coffee" (only with a simple 'and' in between A and B)


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## kloie

I think in Serbian:  oni piju I caj I kavu.


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## SuperXW

We don't have a simple equivalent for “both” in Chinese.
We use different ADVERBS to express "both", so it should be prior to the verb.
Structure 1 and 2 cannot be mixed up.

Structure 1: When two SUBJECTS are perallel
Both A and B are good.
A和B都好。 A he B dou hao. "A and B all good."
都 dou means "all".

Structure 2: When two ACTIONS are perallel
They drink both tea and coffee. (It doesn't mean they drink tea and coffee at the same time.)
他们又喝茶，又喝咖啡。 tamen you hecha, you he kafei. "They as well drink tea, as well drink coffee."
又 you means "as well".
又 you can be replaced by 也 ye here, which means "also".

If you really mean they drink tea and coffee at the same time, as mixing the two drinks together, you have to say "at the same time" in Chinese. Neither structure 1 nor 2 can be used.


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## AutumnOwl

*Swedish:*
_Han dricker både te och kaffe_ - he drinks both tea and coffee (most common)
_Han dricker såväl te som kaffe_ - he drinks as well tea as coffee
_Han dricker lika gärna te som kaffe_ - he drinks as gladly tea as coffee


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## Scholiast

Greetings

For completeness, Holger might care to add Latin, which conforms to the "and A and B" formula. "et...et..." Classical Greek knows this καί...καί formulation (cf. # 2), but has another, namely ...τε...καί..., where τε is enclitic, and meaningless in any other context.
Σ


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## ger4

Thanks for the latest replies as well. I'll try to make a summary including the position of the verb (V):

Catalan #6 *
> V so much A as B
Chinese #20 (2)
> as well V A as well V B
Danish #10
> V as well A and B
Dutch #14
> V as well A as B
Greek #2
> V and A and B
Finnish #8 #17
> V so A as B (too)
> V and A that B
> V A so as B too
> V as well A as B
German
> V as well A as also B
> V both, A and B (informal)
> both V, A and B (inf.,  'both' stressed)
Hebrew #12
> V also A and B
Hungarian #15 #16 **
> A too and B too V
Japanese #3 #11
> A even B even V
> A and B both V
Latin
> and A and B V
Russian #7
> V and A and B
> V so A, so also (=and) B
Serbian #19
> V and A and B
Spanish #6 *
> V so much A as B
Swedish #21
> V both A and B
> V as well A as B
> V as gladly A as B

* details
** details


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## Armas

Gavril said:


> It might be worth mentioning that the word _että_ is only translated as "and" in the above context (to my knowledge). Otherwise, its main translation is "that", as used to introduce a noun clause: for example, _Hän sanoi, että oli tullut aikaisin =_ "He said that he had come early".
> 
> Therefore, "and X that Y" might be a more literal reading (in English) of _sekä X että Y._



It is rare but _että_ in this meaning can be alone, without _sekä_. _Nykysuomen sanakirja_ gives this definition (example sentence: _Siitä on hyötyä että huvia_), _Kielitoimiston sanakirja_ however does not.


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## Gavril

Armas said:


> It is rare but _että_ in this meaning can be alone, without _sekä_. _Nykysuomen sanakirja_ gives this definition (example sentence: _Siitä on hyötyä että huvia_), _Kielitoimiston sanakirja_ however does not.



Interesting. I wonder if that is just a shortened form of _sekä hyötyä että huvia_?

The relevant question here seems to be, how did _että_ develop the meaning "and" -- i.e. did it develop from "that" to "and", and did this change happen via the specific phrase "sekä X että Y"?

Though this doesn't fully answer the latter question, all the cognates of _että_ in other Finnic languages mean "that" or "so that" (at least that is their main meaning) according to one etymological dictionary I consulted.


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## SuperXW

Holger2014 said:


> Chinese #20 (2)
> > as well V A as well V B


Thanks you for the comprehensive summary! Just want to add that in Chinese we can also use:

_A and B both V _
Explained in #20(1), similar to Japanese #11.
HOWEVER, this is NOT APPLICABLE to "they drink both tea and coffee".

_V A, also V B_
Similar to Russian #7, I think.

Anyway, if A and B are objects, rather than subjects, and you want to emphasize "both", then V must be repeated.


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## Medune

In Portuguese:
Ele bebe ambos café e chá.   (both A and B)
Ele bebe tanto café como chá. (so much A as B)
Ele bebe café e também chá. (A and also B)/(A and B as well)

*Should this pair describe and directly precede adjectives/adverbs instead of nouns, they become _tão...quão._
O chá está tão quente quanto o café está frio. The tea is as hot as the coffee is cold.
but,
O chá está tão quente quão frio está o café. The tea is as hot as cold is the coffee.

Should the equality lie on the quantity of the nouns, they become _tanto...quanto_
Ele bebe tanto café quanto chá.   He drinks as much coffee as (he drinks) tea.


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