# ich bin kein Systematiker (Mauthner)



## Löwenfrau

Should I translate this as "I am not a taxonomist" or "I am not systematic/I don't have a systematic spirit"?

"Ich bin kein Systematiker. Ich bestehe nicht darauf, daß Ästhetik (die Lehre von den großen, von den einzig wahrhaften Kunstgenüssen) zu einem Kapitel einer gar sehr problematischen Religionswissenschaft gemacht werde, oder meinetwegen der Theologie."

'Taxonomist' is a more defined concept, while 'systematic' is more open to interpretations. The question is, how you use the word in Germany?

Vielen Dank im Voraus!


----------



## berndf

I would use _systematician_. _Sytematics _and _taxonomy _is almost the same thing, so both would fit. But _systematician _is not only the the more precise translation, it also preserves the connotations outside of the field of biology.


----------



## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> I would use _systematician_. _Sytematics _and _taxonomy _is almost the same thing, so both would fit. But _systematician _is not only the the more precise translation, it also preserves the connotations outside of the field of biology.



That is interesting. It follows the structure of 'mathematician', etc. Unfortunately, this version doesn't exist in Portuguese, and it would sound extravagant. In this case, maybe I must choose 'taxonomist'.


----------



## berndf

In Italian systematician is called _sistematico _(see sense 7. here), i.e. the same as a the adjective. Are you sure this is not like that in Portuguese, too?


----------



## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> In Italian systematician is called _sistematico _(see sense 7. here), i.e. the same as a the adjective. Are you sure this is not like that in Portuguese, too?



We have "sistemático" in Portuguese. But we used it as an adjective, not substantive. But I'll search further.


----------



## bearded

If it is only an adjective, then perhaps you can render 'Systematiker' with 'systematic researcher' or 'systematic scientist' (Forscher/Wissenschaftler). _I am no systematic scientist / Non sono uno studioso sistematico..._
or even _I am not in favour of a systematic theory._


----------



## berndf

@bearded man: Ein _Systematiker _ist jemand, der die Tätigkeit der _Systematik_ (Teilbereich der Biologie) ausübt. Es ist *nicht *jemand, der _systematisch forscht_.


----------



## bearded

Then perhaps _I am not in favour (or: a follower) of the systematic activity / ..of a systematic classification  /..of a systematic method  _would not be so wrong..
And isn't there also a systematic philosophy?


----------



## berndf

bearded man said:


> Then perhaps _I am not in favour (or: a follower) of the systematic activity / ..of a systematic classification  /..of a systematic method  _would not be so wrong..
> And isn't there also a systematic philosophy?


_Systematiker _is a profession, not a fondness. Would you say a _butcher _is _a person in favour (a follower) of butchery_?


----------



## bearded

Yes, but when M. adds - as an explanation - that ''_ich bestehe nicht darauf, dass Ästhetik zu einem Kapitel...gemacht werde'', _it seems to me that he is talking about a systematic method or a systematic philosophy... Maybe he uses 'Systematiker' in a meaning that goes beyond biology...? In your first reply (#2) you said there were ''connotations outside biology''.


----------



## berndf

bearded man said:


> Yes, but when M. adds - as an explanation - that ''_ich bestehe nicht darauf, dass Ästhetik zu einem Kapitel...gemacht werde'', _it seems to me that he is talking about a systematic method or a systematic philosophy... Maybe he uses 'Systematiker' in a meaning that goes beyond biology...?


He says something like this: _It is not my job (=my professional responsibility) to classify (=systematize) things. It is not my concern if aesthetics is part of theology or not. _


----------



## bearded

I think we have come closer to each other.


----------



## manfy

bearded man said:


> Yes, but when M. adds - as an explanation - that ''_ich bestehe nicht darauf, dass Ästhetik zu einem Kapitel...gemacht werde'', _


 
Yes, I sense he's using it in a slightly pejorative way, i.e. a _Systematiker_ being like a person with OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), for whom everything MUST be in the right place, and evry little thing, idea, concept MUST be assigned to the right category. And with this second sentence, Mauthner says that he's not one of those where aesthetics must fit into one specific, predefined "Schublade".


----------



## bearded

Then like 'ich bin kein  (absoluter) Befürworter der systematischen Methode'... In a translation you cannot mention the compulsive disorder.


----------



## manfy

bearded man said:


> Then like 'ich bin kein  (absoluter) Befürworter der systematischen Methode'... In a translation you cannot mention the compulsive disorder.


 
No, no! Don't mix up the (very often) negative undertone of _Systematiker_ with the always positive undertone of _systematische Arbeitsweise_.  

A systematical approach to anything is always better than a chaotic one. But putting the "system" (which is always a preconceived, stiff, (sometimes blatantly stupid) system of order) above the real science behind it is often just an annoyance and hindrance to real understanding!
I do have some experience with such - as I call it - "Schubladenwissenschaftlern".


----------



## bearded

What would your suggested translation be, manfy?


----------



## berndf

Löwenfrau's translation taxonomist is perfectly ok. I just wanted to offer a slight improvement. If this creates such confusion then it is better to stay with her original suggestion.


----------



## manfy

I'll leave it up to you guys -- since I'm already "working" on my second TGIF-beer. 

But just to prove my point: 
"Ich bin kein Systematiker. Ich bestehe nicht darauf, daß ..."
With this sentence Mauthner is saying that _Systematiker_ *do insist on* [clear categoeries, for example]. For me that's a clearly pejorative overtone towards _Systematiker_, and I can feel no love from Mauthner for that!


----------



## berndf

manfy said:


> since I'm already "working" on my second TGIF-beer


We still have our working day ahead of us.



manfy said:


> With this sentence Mauthner is saying that _Systematiker_ *do insist on* [clear categoeries, for example]. For me that's a clearly pejorative overtone towards _Systematiker_, ...


That is for sure. He describes what the French call a "déformation professionnelle".


----------



## fdb

Löwenfrau said:


> Should I translate this as "I am not a taxonomist" or "I am not systematic/I don't have a systematic spirit"?
> 
> "Ich bin kein Systematiker. Ich bestehe nicht darauf, daß Ästhetik (die Lehre von den großen, von den einzig wahrhaften Kunstgenüssen) zu einem Kapitel einer gar sehr problematischen Religionswissenschaft gemacht werde, oder meinetwegen der Theologie."
> 
> 'Taxonomist' is a more defined concept, while 'systematic' is more open to interpretations. The question is, how you use the word in Germany?
> 
> Vielen Dank im Voraus!



In German academic parlance a "Systematiker" is a teacher of "systematische Theologie" (let's say: "dogmatics") as opposed to Old Testament, New Testament, Church history etc. The fact that Mauthner goes on to mention Religionswissenschaft and Theologie suggests that he is using the word in this academic/technical sense.


----------



## berndf

fdb said:


> In German academic parlance a "Systematiker" is a teacher of "systematische Theologie" (let's say: "dogmatics") as opposed to Old Testament, New Testament, Church history etc. The fact that Mauthner goes on to mention Religionswissenschaft and Theologie suggests that he is using the word in this academic/technical sense.


I thought of that as well and then discarded that meaning because an systematic theologian wouldn't worry about it it is within the realm of _Religionswissenschaften _at all. That's why I thought, like Löwenfrau, of a figurative usage of _Systematiker _in the biological sense, i.e. _someone whose job it is to classify_.

But you are right. _Systematiker = systematic theologian_ is a possible reading. I just can't see how it would make sense in our context.


----------



## fdb

He would be using it in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way: "I am not one of those systematic theologians who insist .."


----------



## berndf

fdb said:


> He would be using it in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way: "I am not one of those systematic theologians who insist .."


I think I see what you have in mind. You understand it as _dogmatic thinker_ (with the chain of association _systematic theologians>dogmatist>dogmatic person_). Definitely a possibility.


----------



## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> I thought of that as well and then discarded that meaning because an systematic theologian wouldn't worry about it it is within the realm of _Religionswissenschaften _at all. *That's why I thought, like Löwenfrau, of a figurative usage of Systematiker in the biological sense, i.e. someone whose job it is to classify.*
> 
> But you are right. _Systematiker = systematic theologian_ is a possible reading. I just can't see how it would make sense in our context.




Let's add that even "taxonomist" can be used in a broader sense than only biology. It's like someone applying this specific biology's job of classifying beings in nature to other fields of knowledge. This is all the more pejorative because who does that is bringing a procedure from the natural sciences into the _Geisteswissenschaften_!

One word about fdb's remark: I still think that the reference here is the issue of simply classifying one thing as a chapter of a certain discipline or not, and maintaining that one category is the "Oberbegriff" of the other. But I see your point too.


----------



## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> Let's add that even "taxonomist" can be used in a broader sense than only biology.


Of course. That's why I wrote


berndf said:


> That's why I thought, like Löwenfrau, of a* figurative* usage of _Systematiker _in the biological sense, i.e. _someone whose job it is to classify_.


----------



## manfy

While browsing I found:
"sistematizador" = systematist, systematizer, systemizer = somebody who puts something into an order or system (my afterthought: or also somebody who [always] feels compelled to do so -> and that's where OCD and the condescending or pejorative tone comes in)


----------



## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> While browsing I found:
> "sistematizador" = systematist, systematizer, systemizer = somebody who puts something into an order or system (my afterthought: or also somebody who [always] feels compelled to do so -> and that's where OCD and the condescending or pejorative tone comes in)



Thanks for researching and finding this... I have to say the word doesn't sound like something you would find in a dictionary. But if you did, lucky me.


----------



## manfy

The English words I found in my digital dictionary (Merriam-Webster based) and the Portuguese one I found here on WR and various seemingly good uses according to Google.
I don't expect it to be an everyday word - the English words weren't (for me), but they seemed to fit and carry similar connotations, just like "Systematiker".


----------



## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> The English words I found in my digital dictionary (Merriam-Webster based) and the Portuguese one I found here on WR and various seemingly good uses according to Google.
> I don't expect it to be an everyday word - the English words weren't (for me), but they seemed to fit and carry similar connotations, just like "Systematiker".


----------



## exgerman

Löwenfrau said:


>


I'd suggest systematizer as a translation.


----------

