# Unstressed "o"



## cajzl

> The transliteration is right because an unstressed "o" is pronounced (almost) as "a" in Russian.


We learned that it is true only before a stressed syllable:

moloko /malak*ó*/

But in zaprešč*é*no the unstressed o at the end remains /o/.

Is it true?

Does it depend on dialect?


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## cyanista

cajzl said:
			
		

> We learned that it is true only before a stressed syllable:
> 
> moloko /malak*ó*/
> 
> But in zaprešč*é*no the unstressed o at the end remains /o/.
> 
> Is it true?
> 
> Does it depend on dialect?


The stress in zapreščen*o* is on the last syllable. 

I think it's a Czech-Russian issue: we apparently have different rules as to where to put the stress.  Click (Posts 6 to 8)

And to your question: *every* unstressed "o" is pronounced as a version of "a". I know of a dialect where they do pronounce all "o"s in every position but I'm not even sure if it still exists. I think I only heard it in films about peasants in tsarist Russia.


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## Encolpius

cyanista said:


> ...I know of a dialect where they do pronounce all "o"s in every position but I'm not even sure if it still exists. I think I only heard it in films about peasants in tsarist Russia.



I have also read about those dialects, so do they still exist?


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## Budspok

They do exist in the northern parts of Russia save St.Petersburg.


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## Maroseika

Encolpius said:


> I have also read about those dialects, so do they still exist?



Just to specify: not all unstressed "o" are pronounced as a version of "a", but it depends on the exact dialect; in some of them this happens only in pretonic syllable.
And these dialects exist not only in the North of Russa, but also Central Russian dialects (such as Volga region, for example).


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## ahvalj

To put it into perspective: I know the Northern dialects must persist somewhere, but for 38 years I have never ever heard anybody to preserve the unstressed o's. Only in jokes like those about отец Онуфрий.


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## Sobakus

ahvalj said:


> To put it into perspective: I know the Northern dialects must persist somewhere, but for 38 years I have never ever heard anybody to preserve the unstressed o's. Only in jokes like those about отец Онуфрий.



Try searching for "как я ехал на войну" on YouTube - a very nice example of colourful colloquial speech complete with оканье.


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## ahvalj

Thx.

By the way, both kinds of reduction (a/о > а and е/и > и) are not exactly parallel: unstressed а and о always coincide, even in slow speech or in songs, and do so in all positions I can imagine (well, except in occasional foreign words like радио), while unstressed е and и may sound different e. g. word-finally in open syllables (о дыне/у дыни) and quite often are distinct elsewhere in careful speech or in singing. There are various explanations of this, the most plausible is that the first merger is simply older.


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## marco_2

ahvalj said:


> To put it into perspective: I know the Northern dialects must persist somewhere, but for 38 years I have never ever heard anybody to preserve the unstressed o's. Only in jokes like those about отец Онуфрий.



I spent one month in Ivanovo in 1979 and such pronunciation (with preserved unstressed o's) was common, the same was in Kostroma. I don't know how it is now.


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## Maroseika

marco_2 said:


> I spent one month in Ivanovo in 1979 and such pronunciation (with preserved unstresed o's) was common, the same was in Kostroma. I don't know how it is now.



Exactly like then, all the same.


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## bibax

> Just to specify: not all unstressed "o" are pronounced as a version of "a", but it depends on the exact dialect; in some of them this happens only in pretonic syllable.


I can confirm that in former Czechoslovakia we learned that the unstressed o's are pronounced as a variant of "a" (we usually pronounced normal "a") *only in the pretonic syllables*.

We always pronounced мор*о*женое as mar*ó*ženoe, never mar*ó*ženae.

Maybe он*о* похорон*и*ло pronounced as an*ó* pacharan*í*la with "a" at the end would sound too confusing for the Czech children.

The same for the unstressed "e": we pronounced сестр*а* as sistr*á*, but I cannot imagine an unstressed ending -e pronounced as -i.


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## ahvalj

bibax said:


> I can confirm that in former Czechoslovakia we learned that the unstressed o's are pronounced as a variant of "a" (we usually pronounced normal "a") *only in the pretonic syllables*.
> 
> We always pronounced мор*о*женое as mar*ó*ženoe, never mar*ó*ženae.
> 
> Maybe он*о* похорон*и*ло pronounced as an*ó* pacharan*í*la with "a" at the end would sound too confusing for the Czech children.
> 
> The same for the unstressed "e": we pronounced сестр*а* as sistr*á*, but I cannot imagine an unstressed ending -e pronounced as -i.


So, for all those years, thousands of Czechoslovak teachers did not have a single chance to get a native Russian speaker or at least to listen to the language somewhere in the media? That reminds me the tradition of teaching German pronunciation in the Russian schools, which, politely speaking, is called "the Austrian accent".


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## Maroseika

bibax said:


> I can confirm that in former Czechoslovakia we learned that the unstressed o's are pronounced as a variant of "a" (we usually pronounced normal "a") *only in the pretonic syllables*.



In the post-tonic syllables "o" is pronounced as [ь] or [ъ] (par. 27).
In the pre-tonic syllables the sound is a bit different (ibid, par. 25 and 26).


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## bibax

> So, for all those years, thousands of Czechoslovak teachers did not have a single chance to get a native Russian speaker or at least to listen to the language somewhere in the media?


Blame Stalin, Chruščov, Brežněv, etc. They erected another Iron Curtain between the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. Before 1990 (in the time of the official Czechoslovak-Soviet friendship) the vast majority of us never met a single Russian, we saw them only in the Soviet movies however they all were dubbed. We freely travelled to the GDR and Hungary, but in the case of the USSR we needed _"Свидетельство о приглашении"_.

So you say that ваше свидетельство and ваши свидетельствa are pronounced nearly the same way? Who would say it. Quite an inconvenient homonymy (for untrained ears, of course).


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## Maroseika

bibax said:


> So you say that ваше свидетельство and ваши свидетельствa are pronounced nearly the same way? Who would say it. Quite an inconvenient homonymy (for untrained ears, of course).


Unfortunately, as for the words свидетельство and свидетельства, it's an inconvinience even for trained ears, as there is really no difference, both end on [ъ]. If it is not clear from the context, one may articulate a vowel so that to make it less ambioguous.
However ваши and ваше are different: [вашы] and [вашъ]. Therefore in the word combination ваше свидетельство and ваши свидетельства sound different.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> Unfortunately, as for the words свидетельство and свидетельства, it's an inconvinience even for trained ears, as there is really no difference, both end on [ъ]. If it is not clear from the context, one may articulate a vowel so that to make it less ambioguous.
> However ваши and ваше are different: [вашы] and [вашъ]. Therefore in the word combination ваше свидетельство and ваши свидетельства sound different.


That's true, except that [вашъ] is the transcription for «ваша», whereas «ваше» has an э-like sound in the ending.


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## ahvalj

Of course, this vowel merger creates problems in various areas of grammar and vocabulary, and it's a pity. Also, it would be nice if it had stopped in its present stage, without further reduction of unstressed vowels in the coming centuries. On the other hand, I do think that "a" and "i" as vowel types sound better than "o" and "e", so this shift has its positive sides.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> That's true, except that [вашъ] is the transcription for «ваша», whereas «ваше» has an э-like sound in the ending.



According to РГ-80, post-tonic а, о and е all sound equally as [ъ].


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> According to РГ-80, post-tonic а, о and е all sound equally as [ъ].


I, as well as everybody around me, definitely make difference between «ваша», «ваше» и «ваши» in most occasions. As I had written some days ago, word-finally these vowels often preserve their distinctiveness.


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## ahvalj

I'd just like to explain. First of all, I think I know this business: I can imagine how people write manuals, grammars, compendia etc. And I think it is perfectly possible that even in the academic grammar the authors simply did't pay attention to such things as incomplete merger of unstressed vowels in endings. If there is vowel reduction, then it is everywhere. «Доктор сказал в морг — значит в морг». Second, even if their observation reflects some peculiarities of muscovite pronunciation of the late 70's (or even nowadays), this is not a reason to prescribe such things to all speakers. Russian is neither Esperanto nor even Norwegian, and such rules are not introduced by decisions of some committee, but reflect the usage found among the educated speakers. The school and the grammarians may fight against some mistakes (like the non-declination of neuter toponyms: which they do not, by the way) or resolve some controversies («стелет»/«стелит»: both are right, contrary to what my school teacher believed), but all that should be aimed at improving the language and cutting the unwanted tendencies. The distinction between vowels in unstressed endings is a benefit as it allows to avoid homonymy and if some stratum of educated speakers preserves it in their speech, it should be welcomed and maintained.


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> According to РГ-80, post-tonic а, о and е all sound equally as [ъ].



This could be the case if the е follows ц (c.f. полотенце/полотенца), but Дай Маше vs Дай Маша is different for me.

By the way, it seems there's a confusion about the term "pretonic" in this thread. In Russian only the _first pretonic_ syllable (the one immidiately preceding the stressed one) is special regarding а/о - they're both pronounced ar something of an [ɐ] or the English [ə/ʌ] as in _cut_. If you pronounced every other а and о without reduction, you would hardly catch a single odd look. But mix the pretonic one up - and your village roots are evident  The video I suggested demostrates it perfectly.

So it's either [pəxərɐ`nilə] or [pɔxɔrɐ`nilɔ].


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> This could be the case if the е follows ц (c.f. полотенце/полотенца), but Дай Маше vs Дай Маша is different for me.


For me they sound equal.




> By the way, it seems there's a confusion about the term "pretonic" in this thread. In Russian only the _first pretonic_ syllable (the one immidiately preceding the stressed one) is special regarding а/о


According to this, there is really some difference in the first and second/third pretonic syllables.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> For me they sound equal.


I have noticed that some muscovites on the radio reduce the unstressed vowels (including in the endings) almost to a Latvian or European Portuguese level, but I considered this to be personal peculiarities. Well, this is evil and in no way it should be recommended.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> I have noticed that some muscovites on the radio reduce the unstressed vowels (including in the endings) almost to a Latvian or European Portuguese level, but I considered this to be personal peculiarities. Well, this is evil and in no way it should be recommended.



Nowadays, radio is far not a standard of pronunciation, many people wroking there are not moscovites, so maybe it's just their regional peculiarity rather than personal. With all that I don't think this is a big problem or even a small problem, as hardly anybody learns native language from the radio.


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## ryandward

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but can someone explain to me what they are saying on the pronunciation of ъ?



Maroseika said:


> According to РГ-80, post-tonic а, о and е all sound equally as [ъ].


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## Maroseika

ryandward said:


> can someone explain to me what they are saying on the pronunciation of ъ?


This is  the weakened (reduced) sound, in the first approximation close to English [ə]. For better understanding I'd recommend listen to the pronunciation of natives rather than seeking for more detailed explanation.
Sound [ъ] is pronounced after hard consonants, sound [ь] - after soft consonants.


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## Sobakus

ryandward said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread, but can someone explain to me what they are saying on the pronunciation of ъ?


The letter isn't pronounced, it marks the presence of a yot after a consonant and the lack of softening of said consonant on the border of prefix and root or two roots: _съехать, объём_. The same letter is sometimes used in Russian transcription practice to mark a reduced vowel after hard consonants, but I don't think it's a good idea because it has no universally defined phonetic value.


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