# vuol dire, quiere decir, veut dire



## Maroseika

There is Latin _volo sibi _- "to mean", but:
Italian - _vuol dire
_French - _veut dire_
_Spanish - quiere decir_

What's the origin of this "say" word? Was there one source of it for all said languages?
Since Catalan, unlike Spanish, has _voler, _does it form "to mean" with this stem or with _desitjar_?


----------



## Rintoul

Maroseika said:


> There is Latin _volo sibi _- "to mean", but:
> Italian - _vuol dire_
> French - _veut dire_
> _Spanish - quiere decir_
> 
> Since Catalan, unlike Spanish, has _voler, _does it form "to mean" with this stem or with _desitjar_?


 
The former. Catalan "vol dir" : _means_


----------



## Montesacro

Maroseika said:


> There is Latin _volo sibi _- "to mean", but:
> Italian - _vuol dire_
> French - _veut dire_
> _Spanish - quiere decir_
> 
> What's the origin of this "say" word? Was there one source of it for all said languages?


 

The common source is certainly vulgar Latin, i.e. the spoken language used throughout the empire by the illiterate masses (and informally by the educated people as well):
_Velle dicere_ (infinitive) – to mean
_Vult dicere_ (third person singular) – it means.


----------



## Maroseika

Montesacro said:


> _Velle dicere_ (infinitive) – to mean
> _Vult dicere_ (third person singular) – it means.


I did not know about these Latin expressions. However my question remains: if already _volo_ meant "mean", why "dicere" arised and when - in Latin or Vulgar Latin?


----------



## CapnPrep

Lewis & Short (s.v. _vŏlo_ I, A, 1, e) give citations from Terence and Cicero. But it's a rather transparent expression for which I don't think we have to assume a single origin.


----------



## berndf

Maroseika said:


> I did not know about these Latin expressions. However my question remains: *if already volo meant "mean"*, why "dicere" arised and when - in Latin or Vulgar Latin?


Is doesn't. In the expressions "vult dicere", "veut dire", etc., "volo" means "to want" and not "to mean". If you say, e.g., in French "qu'est-ce que cette expression veut dire?" ("what does this expression mean?"), the literal meaning actually is "what does this expression want to say?". I think, like CapnPrep, that this is rather straight forward and doesn't really need a particular etymological explanation.


----------



## Joannes

In Dutch also *willen zeggen* ("wat wilt dat zeggen?").


----------



## CapnPrep

berndf said:


> Maroseika said:
> 
> 
> 
> if already _volo_ meant "mean"
> 
> 
> 
> Is doesn't.
Click to expand...

Well, it does (usually with _mihi_/_tibi_/_sibi_, as Maroseika mentioned). See the L&S entry I linked above (I, E, 4, b and I, E, 1, d). But it is not uncommon for spoken language to prefer expressions with more lexical substance (reducing ambiguity and allowing more expressivity).


----------



## berndf

CapnPrep said:


> Well, it does


But not in "volo dicere". I didn't express myself clearly. My apologies.


----------



## Maroseika

berndf said:


> the literal meaning actually is "what does this expression want to say?". I think, like CapnPrep, that this is rather straight forward and doesn't really need a particular etymological explanation.


Maybe my interest to this expression looks strange for the Romanic- and Germanic-speaking, but since there is no anything like that in Russian and, I believe, in other Slavic languages, the very expression seems to me quite weird. Slavic use the word literally meaning "signify". That is why I believe "want to say" expressions originate from one source, obviously - Latin.

However, I don't understand how Latin _volo sibi _may mean "to mean". Is it short form of _volo dire_?


----------



## Erick404

Maroseika said:


> There is Latin _volo sibi _- "to mean", but:
> Italian - _vuol dire
> _French - _veut dire_
> _Spanish - quiere decir_
> 
> What's the origin of this "say" word? Was there one source of it for all said languages?
> Since Catalan, unlike Spanish, has _voler, _does it form "to mean" with this stem or with _desitjar_?



There's one thing that I found quite puzzling: French and Italian use a verb which is a direct evolution of _volo_. Spanish and Portuguese (where the expression is "_quer dizer_") use _quierer_/_querer_, which came from another verb (_quaero_), and replaced _volo_ as the verb for to want.


----------



## CapnPrep

Maroseika said:


> However, I don't understand how Latin _volo sibi _may mean "to mean". Is it short form of _volo dire_?


I don't think so; I would say that it developed from the free combination _velle_ + _sibi_ "to want for oneself". But since the meaning is so specific, it's probably best analyzed as an idiomatic reflexive verb (as found in Romance, Slavic, Germanic).

As for _velle dicere_, it's true that the expression is not completely transparent, since it involves a generalization from animate subjects to inanimate subjects. "What  do you mean?" can naturally be paraphrased as "What do you want to say?" (probably in all languages) but languages have to specifically allow the extension to "What does the word/expression X want to say?" Otherwise, it sounds strange (e.g. in Russian or in English), as if the word literally wants something. But this seems to me to be a relatively "easy" shift in meaning, so I would not be surprised to find it in many unrelated languages (cf. Dutch, as Joannes pointed out, but this could be a syntactic calque on the Romance usage).



Erick404 said:


> There's one thing that I found quite puzzling: French and Italian use a verb which is a direct evolution of _volo_. Spanish and Portuguese (where the expression is "_quer dizer_") use _quierer_/_querer_, which came from another verb (_quaero_), and replaced _volo_ as the verb for to want.


This shows that the combination has remained analyzable in the different languages. That is, it is a metaphorical extension of "want to say", not a frozen idiom.


----------



## berndf

Maroseika said:


> Maybe my interest to this expression looks strange for the Romanic- and Germanic-speaking, but since there is no anything like that in Russian and, I believe, in other Slavic languages, the very expression seems to me quite weird. Slavic use the word literally meaning "signify". That is why I believe "want to say" expressions originate from one source, obviously - Latin.





Maroseika said:


> However, I don't understand how Latin volo sibi may mean "to mean". Is it short form of volo dire?


Both expressions have in common that they are anthropomorphic, i.e. both visualize a word or expression not as an abstract symbol but as a thinking and feeling being "who", the case of _volo sibi_, wants something for itself, namely a meaning and "who", in the case of _volo dicere_, wants to convey something to the reader or listener, namely its meaning.

But the two visualizations are most probably distinct, i.e. none of the two is the origin of the other.


----------



## Thomas1

Maroseika said:


> Maybe my interest to this expression looks strange for the Romanic- and Germanic-speaking, but since there is no anything like that in Russian and, I believe, in other Slavic languages, the very expression seems to me quite weird. Slavic use the word literally meaning "signify". That is why I believe "want to say" expressions originate from one source, obviously - Latin.[...]


This what I was thinking about it too some time ago for the very same reason.

We don't use _want to say_ with a word or inanimate subject.
However, I have just remembered that we do say: co chcesz przez to powiedzieć? [literally: what want [you] by this say?] to say _what do you mean (by this)?_ Does that exist in Russian?


----------



## Maroseika

Thomas1 said:


> This what I was thinking about it too some time ago for the very same reason.
> 
> We don't use _want to say_ with a word or inanimate subject.
> However, I have just remembered that we do say: co chcesz przez to powiedzieć? [literally: what want [you] by this say?] to say _what do you mean (by this)?_ Does that exist in Russian?


Yes, it does: Что ты хочешь этим сказать? And more over: о чем это (нам) говорит = что это значит (lit. what does it say us about = what does it mean). It is widely used  for unanimate things, but it doesn't containthe word "want". Therefore I don't see here any connection with the a/m expressions, nor even same logic; while in other considered languages construction is quite the same: want + say. That is why I still think all of them origin from one source.


----------



## Thomas1

In French, the construction want + say can also be used in the same sense as _co chcesz przez to powiedzieć?_ (this is often asked reproachfully, by the way) is in Polish.
Qu'est-ce que tu veux dire par ça ? (correct me someone if I've made a mistake).

The same question can be asked in Polish: co to ma znaczyć? [what is it supposed to mean] (this is even more reporachful than the former, but the meaning is basically the same). Seeing that I infer there may be a logical link between the constructions in question, because they simply mean the same. Please tell me if I missed something. Having said that, I have no idea whether they are of common origin. However, could it have been that first the Romance languages used want + say for people and then the usage  extended to the inanimate subject?


----------



## Cagey

As a side note about the Latin:  The specific combination _volo sibi_ is ungrammatical in Latin.  _volo_ means _I _want/ wish._ sibi_ is the third person indirect reflexive, and would not be used with _volo_. The Latin form would be _volo mihi_ ~ "I want for myself."    

The infinitive form would be _velle sibi_.  I have never seen it used as "mean".  It is not impossible that it was, I suppose.  The form would then be _vult sibi ~ _"It wants for itself._"_


----------

