# Dissimilation - R:R > R:L / L:R



## AndrasBP

Hello, 

It seems that if there is a word with two /r/ sounds in it, sooner or later _some _people will feel it's too much and will want to change one of the /r/ sounds to /l/. A similar phenomenon is L/R metathesis, where /r/ and /l/ are there in the original word, but they change places.

There are lots of such examples in historical linguistics or in dialectal/non-standard usage:


Latin *arbor *became _árbol _in Spanish and _albero _in Italian
The Hungarian form of the German(ic) name *Gerhard *is _Gellért_
The word *rubrika *(rubric, box to fill in) is frequently pronounced _rublika _in Hungarian
In dialectal Hungarian, the word *rükverc *(= reverse (driving), from German "rückwärts") is often pronounced _lükverc_

Any others from any other language that you find interesting?


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## Sardokan1.0

This phenomenon is very common in many areas of Sardinia. R that become L or viceversa.

Latin - Sardinian

_arbor - à*r*vure or à*l*vure
ecclesia - c*r*esia
portus - po*r*tu or po*l*tu
curtus - cu*r*tzu or cu*l*tzu
clavare - c*r*avare
clavem - c*r*ae
oculus - oc*r*u
martius - ma*r*tu or ma*l*tu
platea - p*r*atta
placere - p*r*àghere
florem - f*r*ore_


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## Dymn

*Spanish *in general has a bit of a problem with rhotics. There's no regular sound change, but a common trend to replace/misplace/delete it in the evolution from Latin to the modern language.

I've been compiling examples of r>l changes, in some of them there's another r which might have triggered the dissimilation, but I wouldn't risk saying it's significant.



> *r to l*: _árbol, azul, bolsa, cárcel, Catalina, Cristóbal, escolta, miércoles, papel, quilate, roble, templar, tiniebla_


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## AndrasBP

Thanks for your replies.



Sardokan1.0 said:


> platea - p*r*atta
> placere - p*r*àghere


Does (this dialect of) Sardinian have /r/ in the words where Portuguese also has it, e.g. _branco, praia, igreja, obrigar_, etc. ?

.

Another example from Hungarian:
the common noun *polgár *and surname *Polgár*, meaning "city-dweller" or "citizen", originally comes from a South German dialectal form of "_Bürger_" (pürger > purgar > polgár)


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## Sardokan1.0

AndrasBP said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> Does (this dialect of) Sardinian have /r/ in the words where Portuguese also has it, e.g. _branco, praia, igreja, obrigar_, etc. ?



The phenomenon is quite volatile, in some areas there is the R in others the L

_branco -> biancu (but there is also "arbu, arvu, alvu", from Latin "albus")
praia -> ispiaggia (clear Italian loanword)
igreja -> cresia or creia
obrigar -> obbligare_


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> Latin *arbor *became _árbol _in Spanish



...but Latin arboreus became arbóreo in Spanish.


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## AndrasBP

Circunflejo said:


> ...but Latin arboreus became arbóreo in Spanish.


It must be a later reborrowing from Latin.


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## Sardokan1.0

More from Sardinian
*
Latin - Sardinian*
_
dies Mercurii - Mèrcu*r*is or Mèrcu*l*is
dies Martis - Ma*r*tis or Ma*l*tis
blundus - b*i*undu or b*r*undu
flundare (to throw with a sling) - f*r*undire (to throw away)
plumbus - p*i*umbu or p*r*umbu
papyrus - papì*r*u or pabì*l*u or papè*r*i
plata - p*r*ata (silver)
clamare - *j*amare or c*r*amare (to call)
splenem - isp*r*ene (spleen)_


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## bibax

Sardokan1.0 said:


> This phenomenon is very common in many areas of Sardinia. R that become L or viceversa.
> 
> Latin - Sardinian
> ...
> _clavare - c*r*avare
> ..._


IMHO in most cases it is not the R-R dissimilation.

The L-L dissimilation existed in Latin. The most prominent example is the suffix change -alis > *-aris* if the stem contains the consonant l:

aequalis, annalis, formalis, curialis, causalis, femoralis, cranialis vs. *alaris, consularis, militaris, familiaris, popularis* (but letalis, glacialis)

-clo- > *-cro-* : poclum vs. *lucrum, sepulcrum, simulacrum*


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## AndrasBP

bibax said:


> IMHO in most cases it is not the R-R dissimilation.


Yes, you're right, but our topic has become broader in the meantime:


AndrasBP said:


> A similar phenomenon is L/R metathesis, where /r/ and /l/ are there in the original word, but they change places.





Sardokan1.0 said:


> This phenomenon is very common in many areas of Sardinia. R that become L or viceversa.


.
.




Sardokan1.0 said:


> More from Sardinian
> *
> Latin - Sardinian*
> _
> dies Mercurii - Mèrcu*r*is or Mèrcu*l*is
> dies Martis - Ma*r*tis or Ma*l*tis_
> ...


Thanks for the examples. Very interesting.

.

Latin *peregrīnus *evolved into Provençal _pelegrin_, which was apparently borrowed into Middle English as _pilegrim_, later shortening to _pilgrim_. (I'm not sure how much contact English had with Provençal.)


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> Latin *peregrīnus *evolved into Provençal _pelegrin_



It's also pelegrín in Leonese.


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## AndrasBP

There's the North African country the Spanish call *Argelia*.


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> There's the North African country the Spanish call *Argelia*.



Yes, but I've never been sure that Argelia really implies a /l/-/r/ change because, in Spanish, there's the word argel (for etymology and meanings: http://dle.rae.es/?w=argel) that might be the reason why we say Argelia instead of (English) Algeria. But that's just a personal hypothesis.


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## Olaszinhok

AndrasBP said:


> Latin *peregrīnus *evolved into Provençal _pelegrin_, which was apparently borrowed into Middle English as _pilegrim_, later shortening to _pilgrim_. (I'm not sure how much contact English had with Provençal.)



Classical Latin *peregrinus*, late Latin *pelegrinus* and the latter  evolved into Italian _pellegrino _and_ French pèlerin_


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## Awwal12

AndrasBP said:


> Any others from any other language that you find interesting?


Russian rybalka (рыбалка, fishing) comes from *rybal' (fisher, apparently unattested; cf. modern Russian "rybak" with another suffix), which is a dissimilative version of rybar' with the -ar' ("-er") suffix.
Also vral' (враль, liar), formed according to basically the same model, and fevral' (февраль, February) from the older fevrar'.


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> fevral' (февраль, February) from the older fevrar'.


The second /r/ in Latin Februarius seems to have disappeared in Italian: *febbraio*


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## Dymn

AndrasBP said:


> The second /r/ in Latin Februarius seems to have disappeared in Italian: *febbraio*


It's a regular phenomenon in Italian: /rj/>/j/, e.g. _acciaio, operaio_, _paio,_ etc.



AndrasBP said:


> There's the North African country the Spanish call *Argelia*.


If l/r metathesis also counts, then there's _milagro, palabra, peligro_.


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## Olaszinhok

Dymn said:


> It's a regular phenomenon in Italian: /rj/>/j/, e.g. _acciaio, operaio_, _paio,_ etc.





*- aio* is the unique Florentine suffix from Latin *arius*, in all the other languages and dialects of Italy *aro or ero* were preserved.
I'd add *gennaio (January), *Spanish _enero_, Portuguese_ janeiro_, French j_anvier_, Catalan _gener_


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## Sardokan1.0

Olaszinhok said:


> *- aio* is the unique Florentine suffix from Latin *arius*, in all the other languages and dialects of Italy *aro or ero* were preserved.
> I'd add *gennaio (January), *Spanish _enero_, Portuguese_ janeiro_, French j_anvier_, Catalan _gener_



From this point of view Sardinian works in different ways. The suffix RIU or RIA evolved in different ways in different areas of the island.

*Latin *- Sardinian (*1 *Logudorese - *2 *Nuorese - *3 *Campidanese)

_*Januarius *- *1 *Ghennarzu, Bennarzu - *2 *Jennariu, Jennarzu, Jannariu, Jannarzu - *3 *Gennargiu
*Soricarium *- *1 *Sorigarzu - *2 *Soricariu, Soricarzu - *3 *Sorigargiu (mouse trap)
*Rasorium *- *1 *Resorza - *2 *Resoria, Resorza - *3 *Arresoja (switchblade)
*Mansionarius or Mansiarius* (who works in a Mansio) - *1 *Massaju - *2 *Massariu - *3 *Massargiu (farmer)
*Vervecarius *(sheperd) - *1 *Berbegarzu, Bervegarzu - *2 *Berbecariu, Berbecarzu - *3 *Brebegargiu (sheperd)
*Fabrilarius *(who works in a Fabrilis) - *1 *Frabilarzu, Frailarzu - *2 *Fabrilariu, Fabrilarzu, Frabilariu, Frabilarzu - *3 *Frabilargiu, Frailargiu (blacksmith)
*Ferrarius *- *1 *Ferreri - *2 *Ferreri - *3 *Ferreri (blacksmith)
*Coquinarius *- *1 *Coghinéri - *2 *Cochinéri - *3 *Coxinéri (cook)_


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> The second /r/ in Latin Februarius seems to have disappeared in Italian: *febbraio*



The same is true for wallon: (moes d') fevrî.



Olaszinhok said:


> I'd add *gennaio (January), *Spanish _enero_, Portuguese_ janeiro_, French j_anvier_, Catalan _gener_



...wallon: djanvî.


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## Dymn

Well, it has also disappeared in *French *_janvier, février_, but it's a different phenomenon altogether.


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> Well, it has also disappeared in *French *_janvier, février_,



Excuse my ignorance, I'm not a philologist nor a linguist and I know almost nothing about etymology but I see two /r/ in févrie*r* and I see a /r/ in janvie*r.* Therefore if, according to you, in French, the second /r/ of Februarius disappeared and the /r/ of Ianuarius dissapeared too, where did those /r/ in French come from?


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## Dymn

Circunflejo said:


> Excuse my ignorance, I'm not a philologist nor a linguist and I know almost nothing about etymology but I see two /r/ in févrie*r* and I see a /r/ in janvie*r.* Therefore if, according to you, in French, the second /r/ of Februarius disappeared and the /r/ of Ianuarius dissapeared too, where did those /r/ in French come from?


Final _-r _in _-er _is no longer pronounced in French. Walloon, as most dialectal orthographies which take a more phonological approach, just reflects this in the spelling.


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## Olaszinhok

Dymn said:


> Final _-r _in _-er _is no longer pronounced in French. Walloon, as most dialectal orthographies which take a more phonological approach, just reflects this in the spelling.



Also in Catalan *gener* the R is no longer pronounced…


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> Final _-r _in _-er _is no longer pronounced in French.



So true. I was so focused with the spelling that I totally forgot about pronounciation.


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## AndrasBP

Circunflejo said:


> Yes, but I've never been sure that Argelia really implies a /l/-/r/ change because, in Spanish, there's the word argel (for etymology and meanings: http://dle.rae.es/?w=argel) that might be the reason why we say Argelia instead of (English) Algeria. But that's just a personal hypothesis.


Well, this _argel _seems to be a rare word, and even though it also comes from Arabic, I don't think that's what caused the sound change. 
"Algeria" is not just the English version, but it's what is used in all European languages (except Spanish and Portuguese), based on the original Arabic form _a*l*-Jazā’e*r*._


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> Well, this _argel _seems to be a rare word, and even though it also comes from Arabic, I don't think that's what caused the sound change.



As I said, that's just a personal hypothesis that I'd like to research if I had the knowledge to make it. If the word argel existed in Spanish before the country name was introduced to Spanish, I can think of people 'adapting' the country name to a word that they already knew (or even directly naming the country after a known for them word) but, of course, that's just guessing on my part.



AndrasBP said:


> "Algeria" is not just the English version



Yes, I know.



AndrasBP said:


> but it's what is used in all European languages (except Spanish and Portuguese)



There are a few other exceptions like Asturian (Arxelia) and Occitan (Argeria).


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## AndrasBP

The German brand name *Rotring *(pens and pencils), highly popular in the '80s and '90s, was pronounced "rotling" by many Hungarians, despite the name being displayed on the products. 
There are still over a hundred Google hits for "_rotling ceruza_" (= rotling pencil).


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## bibax

In Czech the R-R dissimilation occured only sporadically in the case of foreign words (commonly unknown to the majority of the speakers).

*legrace* (= fun) < Lat. recreatio;
(_recreatio_ was an official Latin term for the recess/break, a short period of time between lessons at school when children can go outdoors and play; it was a fun, of course)

colloq. *almara*, dial. also jarmara (Std. Czech skříň = cupboard, wardrobe, Schrank, szekrény, шкаф) < Lat. armarium;
(note: there is no regular R-R dissimilatio in Latin)

Some people (not knowing basic Latin) and children also say (and even write) _revorvel, levorvel, leflektor_ (rather assimilation than dissimilation), etc.


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## Sardokan1.0

bibax said:


> colloq. *almara*, dial. also jarmara (Std. Czech skříň = cupboard, wardrobe, Schrank, szekrény, шкаф) < Lat. armarium;
> (note: there is no regular R-R dissimilatio in Latin)



Same thing in Sardinian :
_
Latin "armarium" -> Sardinian "armariu or almariu"_


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## AndrasBP

The Spanish version of the Germanic name Bertrand is *Beltrán*.


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