# Danish and Norwegian: Surnames and phonetic difference



## incolour

Hello, I asked to a site who teach danish how it's pronounced the word/surname "Skriver", they say it is pronounced the same as "Skrive". So I would like to know if the phonetic difference between danish and norwegian include the surnames.
Here's come my example:
The word "Skrive" in danish it's pronounced: skriːvə
but in norwegian* its pronounced: skriːvʌ

(Please correct me if I'm wrong) Thanks.


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## raumar

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

First, to your general question: Yes, the phonetic differences between Danish and Norwegian include surnames. 

Then I am a bit confused about your question: are you asking about differences in the pronounciation of "_skrive_" or "_skriver_"?

"_Skriver_" is pronounced differently from "_skrive_" in Norwegian. The final r is pronounced. (Besides, Skriver is very unusual as a surname in Norway).

When it comes to "_skrive_", I am not really familiar with the IPA symbols. Other users of this forum are, and I hope they can help you. But I don't think the final e is pronounced very differently in Danish and Norwegian, and I suspect that your ʌ in the Norwegian version may be incorrect. My impression -- as a Norwegian speaker -- is that the main difference between the Norwegian and Danish pronounciation of "_skrive_" is the consonants r and v. They -- especially the v -- are pronounced much more distinctly (from a Norwegian point of view) in Norwegian. (Regarding the r, there are also considerable differences between Norwegian dialects - and some are closer to Danish than others).


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## Emil-dano-franco-anglo

I was looking for a Danish phonetic dictionary but unfortunately I couldn't find one. Anyway, “skrive” (to write - infinitive) is not pronounced the same way as “Skriver” (Danish surname). The “er” is pronounced the same way as in the English “driver”. However, It is pronounced the same way as in “write” (first person present tense) “Jeg skriver” (I write).
I hope this answers your question. It is always tricky to discuss phonetics in a written forum.

/Emil


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## incolour

Thank you for answer!

I'm interested in how it is pronounced Skriver (surname) in both danish and norwegian, but this danish site says that "Skriver" and "Skrive" it is pronounced the same, I took the "Skrive" example to explain (Anyway, they were wrong). 

 I can't find an audio/IPA of "Jeg skriver" but now I know that the "er" of driver (IPA: draɪv"ər") is the same as the "er" of Skriver, in danish.
If someone can help at least with the audio/IPA of the "Skriv" part, I'll be very thankful


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## Emil-dano-franco-anglo

Now I think of it ... google translate has a fairly good phonetic function. In this case it's actually ok. As for the surname, the "i" is a bit longer but pronounced the same way.

Google Translate


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## raumar

Good idea, Emil! I can confirm that the Google Translate function is quite OK also for the Norwegian pronounciation of "_skriver_". It gives a good impression of the differences between the Norwegian and Danish pronounciation.

The word "skriver" has several meanings on Norwegian. It is the present tense of the verb "write". As a noun, it can mean "printer" (the machine, not the person). In a historical context, it can mean a person whose job was writing by hand (before printing was invented). It can also be short for "sorenskriver", a district court judge. The verb and the nouns are pronounced somewhat differently, with different pitch accents. The problem with "_Skriver_" as a surname is that most Norwegians would not be familiar with it, so we don't know if it is pronounced like the verb or the noun. (According to Statistics Norway, there are only 11 persons in Norway with the surname _Skriver_, Nora og Lucas tilbake på navnetoppen )


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## Emil-dano-franco-anglo

According to Statistics Denmark (official Danish statistics), 1131 people has the surname Skriver in Denmark (2014). It's not a typical Danish surname but I suppose it's more frequent than in Norway – as raumar says.



How many danes have the name... - Statistics Denmark


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## Matthias561

Raumar, I am quite confused now.. so confused that I checked the pronunciation in Norsk Uttaleordbok av Arne Vanvik and became even more confused afterwards. According to the dictionary both verb and noun should be pronounced in the following way: http://1.1m.yt/EFNQ9KAQ.png
That being said shouldn't "jeg skriver" be transcribed as /jæj 'skriːʋər/ and "en skriver" as /eːn 'skriːʋər/? You mentioned that there is a slight change in the accent, how different is it exactly?


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## incolour

Thanks again!
Skriver as a surname is mostly non-existent in Norway, so, I only have this problem with the "Skriv" part in danish.
I saw some videos of Josephine Skriver (danish model) where she pronounce her surname but still I can't understand the "Skriv" part, sorry, it is like "Skraiv"?


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## raumar

incolour said:


> Thanks again!
> Skriver as a surname is mostly non-existent in Norway, so, I only have this problem with the "Skriv" part in danish.
> I saw some videos of Josephine Skriver (danish model) where she pronounce her surname but still I can't understand the "Skriv" part, sorry, it is like "Skraiv"?



Well, I am not Danish and I don't really know the IPA symbols, but I think you got the "Skriv" part in Danish right in your first post. Maybe a Dane can confirm it? 



Matthias561 said:


> Raumar, I am quite confused now.. so confused that I checked the pronunciation in Norsk Uttaleordbok av Arne Vanvik and became even more confused afterwards. According to the dictionary both verb and noun should be pronounced in the following way: http://1.1m.yt/EFNQ9KAQ.png
> That being said shouldn't "jeg skriver" be transcribed as /jæj 'skriːʋər/ and "en skriver" as /eːn 'skriːʋər/? You mentioned that there is a slight change in the accent, how different is it exactly?



Norwegian is a "pitch accent language", see Pitch accent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Norwegian, two words can be composed of exactly the same sounds, and they are only differentiated by the intonation. We make a distinction between Tone 1 and Tone 2. "_Jeg skriver_" is Tone 1, and "_en skriver_" is Tone 2.  As I said, I don't really know much about IPA, but you can apparently use some extra symbols to represent the different tones in IPA. See the separate table for "Stress and tone" here: Help:IPA for Norwegian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

If I understand this table correctly, you need an extra ' before the second syllable in "en skriver", to represent Tone 2 in IPA. 

Vanvik's book uses the numbers 1 and 2 before the word to represent tone 1 and 2. As you have shown, the book says that both the verb "skrive" (infinitive) and noun "skriver" are Tone 2. But when you go from the infinitive to the present tense, the tone changes. The verb "_skriver_" in the present tense is Tone 1.


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## Matthias561

Does the tone always change to tone 1 when a verb transforms into present tense form and is written in exactly the same way as some other noun? I did some research before and illustrated the whole process in a very ugly image - http://1.1m.yt/kiE-DJVVJ.png, can you please tell me if it's right or not? Thanks for your time, explanation and sorry for the quality of the image!


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## myšlenka

Matthias561 said:


> Does the tone always change to tone 1 when a verb transforms into present tense form and is written in exactly the same way as some other noun?


I think it only applies to verbs that are strong or used to be strong which again means that tone 1 (or accent 1) in present tense is unproductive.


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## raumar

myšlenka said:


> I think it only applies to verbs that are strong or used to be strong which again means that tone 1 (or accent 1) in present tense is unproductive.



That makes sense! 



Matthias561 said:


> I did some research before and illustrated the whole process in a very ugly image - http://1.1m.yt/kiE-DJVVJ.png, can you please tell me if it's right or not? Thanks for your time, explanation and sorry for the quality of the image!



It seems right to me, at least. But it is a bit confusing when the "syllable" axis goes from 1 to 3, since these words have two syllables. It makes sense with three points at the curve, because there may be a rising or falling tone within a syllable - but it is still only two syllables.


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## Matthias561

Oh lord I just realized how silly I was trying to make 3 syllables out of 2 syllable word...thanks anyway .


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## bicontinental

Verbal form:

The infinitive, _skrive_ is pronounced:[ˈsgʁiːvə] (‘modified’ IPA),  [ˈsg̊ʁ̞iːvə]  (IPA). To listen: Google Translate

The present tense of the verb, _skriver_ is pronounced:  [ˈsgʁiːvʌ] ‘modified’ IPA, [ˈsg̊ʁ̞iːvʌ̟̞̹] IPA.  Please note the subtle glottal stop, which is easily appreciated in the google pronunciation that Emil recommended above Google Translate


The corresponding noun:

_En_ skriver is someone who 'does the writing’ in a technical rather than a literary/creative sense, akin to a secretary today (please refer to raumar’s post # 6 re: additional meanings as this comment pertains to Danish as well.) En _skriver_ is pronounced essentially like the verb in the present tense, however, it lacks the glottal stop, “stød” that you’ll hear in the present tense of the verbal form and the i-sound is slightly longer: skriver — Den Danske Ordbog (Caveat: Google translate will give you an incorrect pronunciation in this case)

In general, the pronunciation of names is fairly unpredictable as established pronunciation guidelines may not be adhered to, but to my knowledge the last name _Skriver_ would be pronounced as the noun (_en) skriver.
_



> I saw some videos of Josephine Skriver (danish model) where she pronounce her surname but still I can't understand the "Skriv" part, sorry, it is like "Skraiv"?



The [ai] sound you’re referring to is definitely _not_ how a Danish “i” is typically pronounced (see above). It sounds like the person you’re referring to may have decided to use English phonetics in the pronunciation of her name. Was this an English video by any chance? If so, it’s entirely possible that she’s pronouncing her name in English for the benefit of her Anglophone audience.


Bic.


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## incolour

Yes, was an english interview. 
Finally, she pronounces something like "skraivər" (english phonetics), no? I think Google Translate says the same.

It's offensive the fact of change the original pronunciation for work/social life?


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## bicontinental

incolour said:


> Finally, she pronounces something like "skraivər" (english phonetics), no?


Yes!



incolour said:


> It's offensive the fact of change the original pronunciation for work/social life


I don't see it as being offensive.

Bic.


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## Sepia

Look, folks - How do you think "Skriver" bekame a proper name - derived from a noun or from a verb? From the noun of course, right? Well, the absolutely correct pronunciation of the word that you find in Google Translate is the verb, not the noun. The "i" in the noun is longer. Just as much difference as in "bad" and "bader".


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## bearded

Sepia said:


> difference as in "bad" and "bader


Are you sure that this is a good example?  'Bader' does not exist, as far as I know (see 'worse').


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## Sepia

Doesen't exist? What do you think the present tense of "at bade" is, if not "bader"? (long a, first syllable stressed).


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## bearded

Sepia said:


> Doesen't exist? What do you think the present tense of "at bade" is, if not "bader"? (long a, first syllable stressed).


Sorry, I misunderstood it as being an example in English.  My ''bad''.


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## Sepia

a capisco. So you see what I mean - "skriver" - as a noun has a longer "i" than in "skriver" as a verb. And everbody is referring to mp3s of the verb.


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## MyriadLeaves

Sepia said:


> Look, folks - How do you think "Skriver" bekame a proper name - derived from a noun or from a verb? From the noun of course, right?



Skriver is indeed, according to _Danske For- og Efternavne (Danish First and Surnames)_ by Georg Søndergaard, derived from the noun "Skriver" ("scribe") which was a pretty common occupational nickname during the middle ages that later became a surname.



bearded man said:


> Are you sure that this is a good example? 'Bader' does not exist, as far as I know (see 'worse').



_Bader _does exist as a surname according to the aforementioned book, albeit it's derived from an old German byname referring to a bath attendant.

Regarding the topic at hand:
_(at) skrive_ is more commonly in Danish pronounced /ˈsgʁi:w/ although that might just be a Jutlandish thing.


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