# I ask (to) my colleagues ....



## claude23

Good afternoon,


I ask to my colleagues advice or I ask my colleagues advice ?


They have got something in common.  She likes painting and he likes it too so  they have got something in common. Is it the right thing to say ?


I could not find the meaning of to be on your side ?

Someone pushy or too much. Are they both the same ? Is it slightly different ?

Thank you,

Claude


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## cuchuflete

Greetings Claude,



			
				claude23 said:
			
		

> Good afternoon,
> 
> 
> I ask to my colleagues advice  or I ask my colleagues advice ?
> I suggest:  I ask my colleagues for advice.  Alternatively, you may state
> "I ask my colleagues*'* advice."  This should use the possessive form, and refers to multiple colleagues.
> 
> It might also be "I ask my colleague*'*s advice." if you are referring to only a single colleague.
> 
> 
> They have got something in common.  She likes painting and he likes it too so  they have got something in common. Is it the right thing to say ?
> Yes.
> 
> I could not find the meaning of to be on your side ?  To be in agreement with someone, or allied with them.
> 
> Someone pushy or too much. Are they both the same ? Is it slightly different ? They may be similar or totally different.  We need context and examples to help you understand the differences.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Claude



regards,
Cuchuflete


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## shadow link

Hey claude

I could not find the meaning of to be on your side ? 

For example, in an discussion with some people, and people might "take sides" on a topic - meaning that they take different viewpoints. So you might take part in the conversation by saying "I'm on his side/I'm on your side" = your agreeing with their viewpoint.

Or more literally, in some sort of combat where there are opposing groups, even if just in a game of soccer. If you are making teams - "are you with them(that team), ", "no I'm on your side".


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## elroy

> I ask to my colleagues advice  or I ask my colleagues advice ?
> I suggest: I ask my colleagues for advice. Alternatively, you may state
> "I ask my colleagues*'* advice." This should use the possessive form, and refers to multiple colleagues.


 
Greetings, Cuchu.

With all due respect, I beg to differ.

I would not say "I ask my colleagues' advice," but rather "I ask *for* my colleagues' advice."

Whether the colleagues are directly acted on by the verb or possessing an object, the "for" is indispensable.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Greetings, Cuchu.
> 
> With all due respect, I beg to differ.
> 
> I would not say "I ask my colleagues' advice," but rather "I ask *for* my colleagues' advice."
> 
> Whether the colleagues are directly acted on by the verb or possessing an object, the "for" is indispensable.


 
I hear both "I asked for my colleagues' advice" and "I asked my colleagues' advice". I have been saying both to myself and can't decide which I would usually say.

Just to point out they do mean ever so slightly different things -

"To ask for advice from someone" = "to request advice from someone"
"to ask someone's advice" = "to ask what someone's advice is"


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> I hear both "I asked for my colleagues' advice" and "I asked my colleagues' advice". I have been saying both to myself and can't decide which I would usually say.
> 
> Just to point out they do mean ever so slightly different things -
> 
> "To ask for advice from someone" = "to request advice from someone"
> "to ask someone's advice" = "to ask what someone's advice is"


 
Hm...

I just can't imagine myself saying "ask someone's advice."

For "to ask what someone's advice is," I would say exactly that.

*I would like to ask what your advice is.*

Otherwise:

*I would like to ask for your advice.*

For some reason, I can't stomach "I would like to ask your advice."


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> For some reason, I can't stomach "I would like to ask your advice."


 
Yes, I'd noticed that over the months....JOKING!!!


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## Amityville

You have a 'gut reaction', elroy.
I _can_ stomach it. I often ask advice of people.
If I ask *for *someone's advice, it could mean going through a third party or putting in a written request. I asked the boss for my colleagues' advice.


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## cuchuflete

elroy said:
			
		

> Greetings, Cuchu.
> 
> With all due respect, I beg to differ.
> 
> I would not say "I ask my colleagues' advice," but rather "I ask *for* my colleagues' advice."
> 
> Whether the colleagues are directly acted on by the verb or possessing an object, the "for" is indispensable.



When faced with such a firm assertion, I ask my colleagues' advice.
The preposition may be required by some law of grammar unknown to me.

Please tell me why it is indispensable.

con todo respeto,
C.


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## claude23

Good evening,



For instance : If I want a friend to join me for a party ..if he doesn t want to go  then if I insist may I use sorry but I don t want be pushy ... too much ?

Another one : if it s someone talkative *even more than that* .. let' s say sort of big mouth . May I say she is too much !  By the way , above i wrote even more than that ..Is it right ?


Thank you again,

Claude.


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## elroy

Amityville said:
			
		

> You have a 'gut reaction', elroy.
> I _can_ stomach it. I often ask advice of people.
> If I ask *for *someone's advice, it could mean going through a third party or putting in a written request. I asked the boss for my colleagues' advice.


 
"I ask advice of someone" is ok because it means the same as "I ask for someone's advice." 

At least to me. 

"I ask for someone's advice" can also bear the nuance you describe.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> When faced with such a firm assertion, I ask my colleagues' advice.
> The preposition may be required by some law of grammar unknown to me.
> 
> Please tell me why it is indispensable.
> 
> con todo respeto,
> C.


 
Well, there's not much else you ask besides a question.

You ask *for* a favor.
You ask *for* help.
You ask *for* an explanation.
You ask *for* a list of possible things you could ask for.

On a similar vein, you ask *for* advice.

It's kind of like the difference between "preguntar" and "pedir."  You don't "preguntar" consejo; you "pedir" it.


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## elroy

claude23 said:
			
		

> Good evening,
> 
> 
> 
> For instance : If I want a friend to join me for a party ..if he doesn t want to go then if I insist may I use sorry but I don t want be pushy ... too much ?
> 
> Another one : if it s someone talkative *even more than that* .. let' s say sort of big mouth . May I say she is too much ! By the way , above i wrote even more than that ..Is it right ?
> 
> 
> Thank you again,
> 
> Claude.


 
You would say, "Sorry, I don't want to be pushy."

"Too much" means "too much to bear." "Insoportable" in French.  It can be because the person talks a lot, because he picks his nose, or because he asks too many questions...so if that's what you want to say, then yes, you could say it.

"Someone is talkative even more than that" doesn't sound good.  I would say "Someone is *even more talkative than that*."


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## cuchuflete

What we have here, is either a failure to communicate, or a simple difference of stylistic preference.

It's clear that you like interjecting "for" into your requests.   I often do the same.  Sometimes I omit the prep.   I'm still wondering why you say it's indispensable.   It's common enough in literary dialogue, especially BE and older AE, to see requests spoken without the 'for'.


Bush asked the spin doctors' opinions about damage control.
He requested those opinions.  Had he '..asked for the spin doctors' opinions...' the meaning might be identical or slightly different.  I find nothing wrong with the former way of saying it.  I use it and hear it used.

The preguntar/pedir matter casts no light on any of this.  One means to ask a question; the other means to request.  I don't see that that has anything at all to do with use or absence of 'for' in English.

Cuchu demanded the foreros' adherence to the forum rules, and was roundly ignored.     I know you don't like this, but beyond your stylistic discomfort with it, what's wrong with it?

un saludo,
Cuchu


			
				elroy said:
			
		

> Well, there's not much else you ask besides a question.
> 
> You ask *for* a favor.
> You ask *for* help.
> You ask *for* an explanation.
> You ask *for* a list of possible things you could ask for.
> 
> On a similar vein, you ask *for* advice.
> 
> It's kind of like the difference between "preguntar" and "pedir."  You don't "preguntar" consejo; you "pedir" it.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Well, there's not much else you ask besides a question.
> 
> You ask *for* a favor.
> You ask *for* help.
> You ask *for* an explanation.
> You ask *for* a list of possible things you could ask for.
> 
> On a similar vein, you ask *for* advice.
> 
> It's kind of like the difference between "preguntar" and "pedir." You don't "preguntar" consejo; you "pedir" it.


 
But the English is different from the Romance model here. It is not at all unusual in English - you can "ask someone's name" = "ask what someone's name is" or "ask for someone's name" = "formulate the question" etc, there are infinite possibilities.


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## cuchuflete

May I ask a favor of you?   Tell me, without facial twitches, that you hear people saying,
"May I ask for a favor of/from you?"?


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## cuchuflete

We had a recent thread on syllogisms and false premises.

Pedir in Spanish means 'to request'
To request something is to ask for something.

Therefore, Pedir means to ask for something.
Therefore, the asking requires the use of the word "for".

Harrumph!

Pedir may also be translated directly and without fanfare alguna as "to request".

I don't normally request _for_ something, although I may *make* a request _for_ something, which is a horse of a different color entirely.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What we have here, is either a failure to communicate, or a simple difference of stylistic preference.
> 
> It's clear that you like interjecting "for" into your requests. I often do the same. Sometimes I omit the prep. I'm still wondering why you say it's indispensable. It's common enough in literary dialogue, especially BE and older AE, to see requests spoken without the 'for'.
> 
> 
> Bush asked the spin doctors' opinions about damage control.
> He requested those opinions. Had he '..asked for the spin doctors' opinions...' the meaning might be identical or slightly different. I find nothing wrong with the former way of saying it. I use it and hear it used.
> 
> The preguntar/pedir matter casts no light on any of this. One means to ask a question; the other means to request. I don't see that that has anything at all to do with use or absence of 'for' in English.
> 
> Cuchu demanded the foreros' adherence to the forum rules, and was roundly ignored. I know you don't like this, but beyond your stylistic discomfort with it, what's wrong with it?
> 
> un saludo,
> Cuchu


 
I would still say "Bush asked *for* the spin doctors' opinions" or "Bush asked the spin doctors *for *their opinions."

Furthermore, "Bush asked the spin doctors' opinions" is more tolerable (to me) because there is an implied question.  "Bush asked the spin doctors' opinions" = "Bush asked the spin doctors, 'What are your opinions?' "

With "advice," you are clearly *requesting*something.

While you could of course also say "I request your opinion," the implication is not that I seek to benefit from it but rather that I would simply like to know what it is.

The "preguntar/pedir" analogy highlights the fact that you are not asking a question but requesting something.

I don't understand your "demanding adherence" reference because it doesn't involve the verb "ask."


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> But the English is different from the Romance model here. It is not at all unusual in English - you can "ask someone's name" = "ask what someone's name is" or "ask for someone's name" = "formulate the question" etc, there are infinite possibilities.


 
Ask someone's name? Really?

I don't mean to prolong this discussion even further, but I can guarantee that I do *not* say that.  

Ask for someone's name 
Ask what someone's name is
Ask someone what his/her name is

To me, those are ok - the other one isn't.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> May I ask a favor of you? Tell me, without facial twitches, that you hear people saying,
> "May I ask for a favor of/from you?"?


 
No.  You're right; my face would twitch uncontrollably. 

I would say, 

"May I ask you for a favor?"

or simply 

"Could you do me a favor?"


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Ask someone's name? Really?
> 
> I don't mean to prolong this discussion even further, but I can guarantee that I do *not* say that.
> 
> Ask for someone's name
> Ask what someone's name is
> Ask someone what his/her name is
> 
> To me, those are ok - the other one isn't.


 
Yep, perfectly normal English to me. Well more than that, I would say "to ask someone's name" is much more common than "to ask for someone's name" etc. I would say "to ask someone's name" is the usual form and "to ask for someone's name" more likely to be used of a third party eg "he asked for the name of the supplier from the receptionist" or something like that (I suppose that's similar to Amity's point in post 8).


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> We had a recent thread on syllogisms and false premises.
> 
> Pedir in Spanish means 'to request'
> To request something is to ask for something.
> 
> Therefore, Pedir means to ask for something.
> *Therefore, the asking requires the use of the word "for".  *
> 
> *This deduction is not valid.  "Ask" requires "for" only insofar as it means "pedir" in Spanish.*
> 
> Harrumph!
> 
> Pedir may also be translated directly and without fanfare alguna as "to request".
> 
> Correct.  And you request advice - so you ask for it.
> 
> I don't normally request _for_ something, although I may *make* a request _for_ something, which is a horse of a different color entirely.


 
Comentarios...


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yep, perfectly normal English to me. Well more than that, I would say "to ask someone's name" is much more common than "to ask for someone's name" etc. I would say "to ask someone's name" is the usual form and "to ask for someone's name" more likely to be used of a third party eg "he asked for the name of the supplier from the receptionist" or something like that.


 
Agreed.

However, if I asked you, "What is your name?"  I would later say

"I asked him what his name was" 

and not

"I asked him his name."

I'm interested in finding out if other people also find your version mundane and "perfectly normal" - to me it definitely sounds a little odd.


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## timpeac

I don't see the point of this discussion. At the end of the day "to ask X's Y" is extremely common English. I don't see the merit of discussing whether it should or should not be said.

Hasta luego amigos.

Elroy - our posts crossed. Fair enough, I must say I will eat my hat if others don't find it perfectly normal. (we already know Cuchu and Amity do). Bis bald.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't see the point of this discussion. At the end of the day "to ask X's Y" is extremely common English. I don't see the merit of discussing whether it should or should not be said.
> 
> Hasta luego amigos.


 
I would like to ask Tim's moderation. 

"Extremely common" might be a slight exaggeration - to me there is huge merit in waiting to see whether empirical evidence bears out your claims.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> I don't see the point of this discussion. At the end of the day "to ask X's Y" is extremely common English. I don't see the merit of discussing whether it should or should not be said.
> 
> Hasta luego amigos.
> 
> Elroy - our posts crossed. Fair enough, I must say I will eat my hat if others don't find it perfectly normal. (we already know Cuchu and Amity do). Bis bald.


 
Oops - they crossed again  

It's a deal.  Schönes Deutsch!


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## timpeac

Bälder than I was intending - googling the phrase "asked his name" gives 22k replies, and given this is just one example (eg his not her,my,their etc) and "name" not "age" "date of birth" etc, I'd say that is ample empirical evidence that this is an extremely common construction.


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> Bälder than I was intending - googling the phrase "asked his name" gives 22k replies, and given this is just one example (eg his not her,my,their etc) and "name" not "age" "date of birth" etc, I'd say that is ample empirical evidence that this is an extremely common construction.


 
The comparative of "bald" is "eher" - but good try. 

Some of the search results on the first page are part of the construction "Asked his name, he..."  Who knows how many others are like that...

You have a point, though.  Google certainly seems to be on your side.  I'd still like others to weigh in, though.


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> The comparative of "bald" is "eher" - but good try.


Hehe, well gave it a go!!


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## timpeac

elroy said:
			
		

> Some of the search results on the first page are part of the construction "Asked his name, he..." Who knows how many others are like that...


 
Sorry - it just occurred to me - that still counts. By your argument it would be "asked for his name, he..." ("asked for his name" gets 9k hits )


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## elroy

timpeac said:
			
		

> Sorry - it just occurred to me - that still counts. By your argument it would be "asked for his name, he..." ("asked for his name" gets 9k hits )


 
Yeah, yeah. 

I'm gonna ask around and see what people around me say.


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## cuchuflete

I think I've got to the bottom of it. Before I give the good news, thank you Elroy for pointing out the invalid deduction. You boldly made my point.

Now, as I'm beginning to understand, Elroy believes that 'ask' requires a trailing 'for' when used to mean 'request'. I agree that 'ask for' = request. Where we differ is that I and the googliad masses *also* accept are and quite mundanely comfortable with 'ask' = request.  

Way back in the beginning of the thread, Elroy stated that 'for' is indispensable. I requested a grammatical rule to help me accept, neigh, (and also, nay) understand this. What has come in place of the rule is a good set of examples of stylistic preferences, both for and against the *necessity* of including 'for'.

The 'demand' example was given just to show that a more imperative request, a demand, behaves, for me, the same way as 'ask' or 'solicit' or any other verb with similar meaning. For my stylistic ear, the preposition is optional. For Elroy it is obligatory.

I find no fault with someone else having such strong stylistic preferences, as I too have been known to be a bit stubborn.

Abrazos a repartir,
Cuchu


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## elroy

I can't believe it, but I actually resorted to looking up the word on dictionary.com (at least I didn't go to *Ask*Jeeves, though! ). The results are supremely intriguing:



> *ask [url="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg"]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/url] ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifsk)
> v. asked, ask·ing, asks
> v. tr.
> 
> To put a question to: When we realized that we didn't know the answer, we asked the teacher. indirect object, not our concern
> To seek an answer to: ask a question. I already said this was ok; it's not analogous to the "advice" example
> To seek information about: asked directions. again, not analogous. We're not concerend with asking about advice.
> <LI type=a>To make a request of: asked me for a loan. indirect object
> To make a request for. Often used with an infinitive or clause: ask a favor of a friend; asked to go along on the trip; asked that he be allowed to stay out late. I agree that it's ok followed by "of." I would say "ask advice of a friend" but not "ask a friend's advice." The other examples are not relevant.
> 
> To require or call for as a price or condition: asked ten dollars for the book. irrelevant
> To expect or demand: ask too much of a child. irrelevant
> To invite: asked them to dinner. irrelevant
> Archaic. To publish, as marriage banns. irrelevant
> *


 



The remaining results were for the intransitive use of "ask," which is clearly not relevant.

It seems to me that even the dictionary isn't too excited about using "ask" to mean "request." The one example in the one entry that seems to suggest that (4b.) follows it up with "of a friend," which is indisputably correct.

Perhaps it _is_ a question of style, but if it is then it is for a very good reason, it seems.


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## cuchuflete

Hola indefatigable Elroy,

I haven't beat a dead horse for at least 30 minutes, so here goes:

For starters, we agree that most of those definitions fall well outside of our conversation.  I'm not sure about parts of #3.




> *<li>To seek information about: asked directions. again, not analogous. We're not concerend with asking about advice.  Bush asked colleagueas' opinions.  Not quite the same.  He didn't seek information about, he sought opinion.
> *
> 
> 
> *<LI type=a>To make a request of: asked me for a loan. indirect object  Cuchu asked forero's adherences....to rules.  Similar, but not the same.
> 
> *
> *To make a request for. Often used with an infinitive or clause: ask a favor of a friend; asked to go along on the trip; asked that he be allowed to stay out late. I agree that it's ok followed by "of." I would say "ask advice of a friend" but not "ask a friend's advice." The other examples are not relevant. *





			
				elroy said:
			
		

> I can't believe it, but I actually resorted to looking up the word on dictionary.com (at least I didn't go to *Ask*Jeeves, though! ).
> Perhaps it _is_ a question of style, but if it is then it is for a very good reason, it seems.



Here's your half a loaf: When I omit 'for', the sense of it is implicit. The spoken and written languages have evolved so that it's understood, or subliminally 'heard' even when absent. It's like "Cría cuervos...." in Spanish. I've hardly ever heard anyone state the rest of the sentence, yet every listener "hears" it at the prompt of the first two words of the refrán.

regards,
C/.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola indefatigable Elroy,
> 
> I haven't beat a dead horse for at least 30 minutes, so here goes:
> 
> For starters, we agree that most of those definitions fall well outside of our conversation. I'm not sure about parts of #3.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's your half a loaf: When I omit 'for', the sense of it is implicit. The spoken and written languages have evolved so that it's understood, or subliminally 'heard' even when absent. It's like "Cría cuervos...." in Spanish. I've hardly ever heard anyone state the rest of the sentence, yet every listener "hears" it at the prompt of the first two words of the refrán.
> 
> regards,
> C/.


 
*



<li>To seek information about: asked directions. again, not analogous. We're not concerend with asking about advice. Bush asked colleagueas' opinions. Not quite the same. He didn't seek information about, he sought opinion.  That's precisely why it's not analogous.


<LI type=a>To make a request of: asked me for a loan. indirect object Cuchu asked forero's adherences....to rules. Similar, but not the same. Not really. This one's an indirect object.  The analogy would be "Cuchu requested (asked) the foreros for adherence.
To make a request for. Often used with an infinitive or clause: ask a favor of a friend; asked to go along on the trip; asked that he be allowed to stay out late. I agree that it's ok followed by "of." I would say "ask advice of a friend" but not "ask a friend's advice." The other examples are not relevant. 


Click to expand...

 
The "ellipsis" argument I can accept. 

What's "cría cuervos"? *


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## cuchuflete

"Cría cuervos y te sacarán los ojos."  or "Cría cuervos y te
pican los ojos”.  Literal translation: Raise crows and they'll peck your eyes out.

It's in the direction of "I told you so." or "What did you expect from _____?" Usually said in reference to someone who has behaved badly. Look it up in any good collection of Refranes for better definitions.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> "Cría cuervos y te sacarán los ojos." or "Cría cuervos y te
> pican los ojos”. Literal translation: Raise crows and they'll peck your eyes out.
> 
> It's in the direction of "I told you so." or "What did you expect from _____?" Usually said in reference to someone who has behaved badly. Look it up in any good collection of Refranes for better definitions.


 
I see.  That's not really the same, though, is it?  Sounds to me like it's more analogous to "Wanna come with" for "Wanna come with me/us" (which, by the way, is a recent phenomenon!)...

Anyway, I'm all for chalking it up to an ellipsis.


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## timpeac

I do not believe that "the doctor asked Peter his weight" is elliptic for "the doctor asked Peter for his weight". I think they are equally acceptable, and not (completely) synonymous, utterances. Personally for me the second sounds much less usual than the first.

At the end of the day, what is the issue here? Are we all still unconvinced that both are common utterances? If not then there is no point in discussing whether one or the other should or should not be said, particularly as I can't see how even the least draconian of prescriptive rules is broken here.


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## cuchuflete

elroy said:
			
		

> I see. That's not really the same, though, is it? Sounds to me like it's more analogous to "Wanna come with" for "Wanna come with me/us" (which, by the way, is a recent phenomenon!)...
> 
> Anyway, I'm all for chalking it up to an ellipsis.



Here we go again!  The trouble with the younger generation...is that they think they have invented the wheel, fire, and whoknowswhatelse!

Hate to sound so geriatric, but....

(which, by the way, in Elroy's experience, is a recent phenomenon!)

I used to hear that expression, and dislike it very much, thank you, decades before you graced the planet with your presence.


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## elroy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Here we go again! The trouble with the younger generation...is that they think they have invented the wheel, fire, and whoknowswhatelse!
> 
> Hate to sound so geriatric, but....
> 
> (which, by the way, in Elroy's experience, is a recent phenomenon!)
> 
> I used to hear that expression, and dislike it very much, thank you, decades before you graced the planet with your presence.


 
It is a recent phenomenon, in my experience - and I count myself fortunate for it.  It's unfortunate to hear that the abominable expression has been around for longer than I thought.


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## cuchuflete

At least good taste hasn't been stomped to dust.  I hated it in the 1960s, and before, and you detest it, with me, today.


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## claude23

Good morning,


I am bit confused about this one .. may I ask you a favor or for a favor ?

If I say  I took the liberty of coming to your place etc.... do not worry I won't stay for too long or I won't stay too long ?

I am on the phone .... May I say I cannot talk for too long ? I cannot talk very long or for very long ?


Thank you,

Claude.


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