# All dialects: ر as غ pronunciation



## arbelyoni

Do some vernaculars/ social groups pronounce the letter Ra as Ghain (or more like a French R)? E.g - راس as "ghas".

I came across this pronunciation while watching a tv show that took place in Cairo (interviewees were all Egyptian, I believe).

Thanks


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## cherine

Hi,

Pronouncing the ر as a غ is a lisp.

There was only one occurrence that I can remember where someone was intentionally pronouncing it this way (not a lisp) and that was in a drama where the lead actress thought it's "appropriate" to pronounce it this way because she was acting the role of a high class girl (who's been to French language school and all). The writer and the director of the show were against it, people didn't like it, but she did it nevertheless.

I'm a French language school graduate myself and neither myself or any of my colleagues pronounce the ر this way. So, I believe what you heard is just a lisp.


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## TheArabicStudent

I used to know an American guy who had studied Arabic for many years and pronounced the غ very similar to the ر and I always wondered why he did that, but I have since heard native Arabs do the same thing.  I haven't heard anyone do it the other way around though, except French people.


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## Mahaodeh

I do recall a few old Egyptian comedy plays (recorded in the fifties and sixties) where the actress playing an upper class role talked that way, but the actress herself playing a similar role in a drama or a more serious play or movie pronounce the r correctly; it seems to me as if it's just some sort of mocking or comedy.

Other than that, the Mousil dialect in Iraq pronounces the raa' as ghain, the Jewish sub-dialect in Iraq used to do that also. I don't know of any other dialect that does the same.


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## arbelyoni

Thank you all!


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## إسكندراني

I think in Fes, Morocco they pronounce the ر as غ all the time.


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## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

i know chaldeans who do this too... and iraqi jews...
some moroccans do too


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## Arabus

Arabic /r/ is not even close to being pronounced gh [ɣ]. The proper Arabic /r/ is a strongly trilled _dental _consonant. It comes from the frontmost part of the mouth. This is very different from the alveolar non-trilled r of Western Europe that gave rise to the gh pronunciation.

Moreover, r couldn't be pronounced gh in Arabic because these are two different phonemes. If such a pronounciation occurs then we will be talking about a sound merge, which means that many words will become ambiguous and we'll be getting into a big linguistic mess.​


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## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

Honestly, the "ra"/"gheen" merge DOES HAPPEN in northern iraq (and in baghdad) with the chaldeans and jews... would you like me to supply evidence?


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## Arabus

I am not saying it is impossible, but these are marginal dialects, right?

In some towns north of Aleppo, people drop the sound of /q/ completely from some words (بقرة is pronounced _baara_), but this is a marginal dialect and you couldn't tell if it is a regional development or an influence from Turkish.


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## Arabus

BTW I'd like to see the evidence.


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## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

I wouldn't say marginal, since the number of chaldeans and jews in iraq is quite large... Its regional yes, marginal no.

SN:  They drop the "qaf" in western algeria, cairo, lebanon, syria, israel, and the jewish dialects of morocco... so the qaf/hamza merge isnt very marginal either...


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## Arabus

i_guess_i_am_a_genius said:


> SN:  They drop the "qaf" in western algeria, cairo, lebanon, syria, israel, and the jewish dialects of morocco... so the qaf/hamza merge isnt very marginal either...



If your source for the first information is the same source that you got this information from, then I would _really _want to see the evidence.


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## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

Arabus said:


> BTW I'd like to see the evidence.



I am going to list you 2 pdfs and post the links below...
one corresponds to christian arabic of baghdad (chaldean arabic)

and the other refers to the arabic spoken by jews in iraq.. both dialects have this phenomenon...

http://www.mediafire.com/?h4dxrnv70nff4nn  Main description of this is found on page 9 (page 10 in the pdf, lower right side) but theres a crapload of examples throughout the book, and compares them to the muslim arabic counterparts throughout the city and the country...
(christian/chaldean arabic of baghdad)

file  - Free Download - Uploading.com Page 29 (page 14 in the pdf right side) describes the treatment of the same phoneme, and has examples...


Arabus said:


> If your source for the first information is the same source that you got this information from, then I would _really _want to see the evidence.



All you need to do is watch egyptian tv, listen to people in beirut, 7aleppo, moroccan jews, i have an aunt from tlemcen who drops qaf, etc etc... this wasnt from a book, just something i noticed... qaf/hamza merge is synonymous to urban arabic... the same goes with the merges of the interdental th/t/s, dh/d/z, 6'/z etc...

Qaf/hamza in algeria

List of IPA phonemes & as transliterated in this article: 24 consonants:/b/	/t/	/dʒ/	/ɡ/	/ħ/	/ʕ/	/d/	/p/	/r/	/z/	/s/	/ʃ/	/sˤ/	/dˤ/	/tˤ/	/ɣ/	/f/	/q/	/k/	/l/	/m/	/n/	/h/	/x/	/w/	/j/
b	t	j	g	ḥ	ε	d	p	r	z	s	š	ṣ	ḍ	ṭ	γ	f	q	k	l	m	n	h	x	w	y
ب‎	ت‎	ج‎	g	ح‎	ع‎	د‎	p	ر‎	ﺯ‎	ﺱ‎	ش‎	ص‎	ض‎	ط‎	غ‎	ف‎	ق‎	ك‎	ل‎	م‎	ن‎	ﻫ‎	خ‎	و‎	ﻱ‎

Some pronounce the consonant q differently : g, k, or ' (hamza).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Arabic)

qaf/hamza in cairo/lebanon/israel/syria

Classical Arabic /q/ became /ʔ/ in Cairo and the eastern Delta (a feature shared with Lebanese and other forms of Levantine Arabic), but /q/ is retained natively in some dialects of the western Delta outside of Alexandria.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_arabic)


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## Arabus

/q/ = [ʔ] does not mean the /q/ is _dropped_. Dropping means that /q/ has no sound at all, like in the example I gave you.

المقصود أن القاف تحذف، وليس المقصود أنها تنطق همزة.

As for qaf/hamza merge, this happens only in Egypt, and perhaps some Palestinian cities. In Syria /q/ is distinct from /ʔ/ even though they both are pronounced [ʔ], because each has a different secondary pronunciation.


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## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

That is true, I thought you were talking about the merge of the two phonemes... however did you get into to pdfs I posted?


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## Hemza

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hello,

I watched a Tunisian documentary where there is an Egyptian film director whose name is توفيق صالح and who speaks about طه شريعة a Tunisian film director who made the Carthage festival. The Egyptian man seemed to be unable to pronounce the ر and I remember him saying الوزير like al waziigh. Is it something common in Egypt? I know some people can't pronounce the ر (one of my Arabic teachers of last year) but I wonder if this pronunciation isn't may be a local pronunciation? I know in some other places, it is the case (in Morocco for example, it's a feature of my area but is very very old fashioned)


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## cherine

It's just a lisp.  We call such a person أَلْدَغ في الرا/الرِ aldagh fe'r-ra(h)/fe're(h).


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## Hemza

Thanks Cherine


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## Drink

cherine said:


> It's just a lisp.  We call such a person أَلْدَغ في الرا/الرِ aldagh fe'r-ra(h)/fe're(h).



Just to clarify, the word "lisp" only refers to incorrectly pronouncing the sibilants "s" and "z", usually as (or close to) "th" and "dh". So I would call this a "speech defect".


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