# Salvare capra e cavoli



## shining Sun

"Salvare capra e cavoli" is an expression which in *I*talian means sort of to get out of an impasse, to have it both ways, to keep everybody happy: do you have any similar expression in *E*nglish or any idiom with the same meaning?
Thank you very much
sole


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## shamblesuk

Dato che questo non e' la prima frase idiomatico che ci hai chiesto, ci aiuterebbe una frase intera inclusivo dell tipo di domanda a cui si risponderebbe così.

Lee


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## Paulfromitaly

I could be "to have the best of both worlds".


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> I could be "to have the best of both worlds".


 
Paul
This is "non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca". It's similar, but it's not quite the same!

Non mi viene in mente niente, però.....



EDIT: It's a riddle, written in by an English monk, not a proverb! But it's in Latin...

Da www.micheblog.wordpress.com:
Nell’ *VIII* secolo, l’imperatore *Carlo Magno* chiamò alla sua corte un monaco inglese: un certo *Alcuino da York*. Da vero mecenate, l’imperatore amava la cultura e ne capiva, con grande intuito e lungimiranza, l’importanza strategica (e ci si potrebbe chiedere dove è finita tale sensibilità oggi?? Ma questa è un’altra storia…). 
Posto a capo della _Schola Palatina_, Alcuino seppe dimostrare le sue abilità non solo di uomo di lettere, ma di valente pedagogo. Il suo libro _Propositiones ad acuendos juvenes_, “Problemi per rendere arguti i giovani” è una raccolta di indovinelli, giochi e quesiti matematici, di straordinaria attualità.
Uno dei problemi è la _*Propositio de lupo et capra et fasciculo cauli:*_ 
_Un uomo deve attraversare un fiume, trasferendo la capra, il lupo ed il cavolo. Dispone tuttavia di una barca con solo due posti. Inoltre non può lasciare la capra sola con il cavolo, nè il lupo solo con la capra._ ​Chi ha capito come può fare il nostro amico a far attraversare a tutti il fiume, *salvando capra e cavolo? *
** 
NEW EDIT: It's almost always used in Latin! A maths proferssor used it for teaching and presented it as the "classic " problem of the wolf, the goat and a head of cabbage......


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> Paul
> This is "non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca". It's similar, but it's not quite the same!
> 
> Non mi viene in mente niente, però.....



I thought that was "you can't have your cake and eat it"..


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> I thought that was "you can't have your cake and eat it"..


 
 It's that as well, you're quite right!


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## shining Sun

london calling said:


> _Un uomo deve attraversare un fiume, trasferendo la capra, il lupo ed il cavolo. Dispone tuttavia di una barca con solo due posti. Inoltre non può lasciare la capra sola con il cavolo, nè il lupo solo con la capra._ ​Chi ha capito come può fare il nostro amico a far attraversare a tutti il fiume, *salvando capra e cavolo? *


 
Prima attraversa il fiume con sulla barca la capra e il cavolo. Lascia il cavolo sull'altra riva e torna insieme alla capra. Prende il lupo e lascia la capra: porta il lupo sull'altra riva e lo lascia insieme al cavolo (non è il lupo quello ghiotto di cavolo!!!) e infine va aprender la capra!!!!

Questo er un off topic...ma era troppo divertente per non rispondere!

So you say the expression is used in the Latin form, which is *Propositio de lupo et capra et fasciculo cauli?*

Thank you for all your answers
sole


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## london calling

shining Sun said:


> So you say the expression is used in the Latin form, which is *Propositio de lupo et capra et fasciculo cauli?*


 



Hello!
I'm under the impression that we only use it when talking about the original riddle (whereas in Italian it's become a common expression) and I have a feeling most anglos wouldn't know what you meant if you used it either in Latin or in the "English " translation! (Including me, before I checked it out....)

We need to find an expression which conveys the same idea in English and forget all about wolves, goats and cabbage.....


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## shining Sun

Exactly, so in a situation in which you do your best efford to get out of it, solving two problems at once (which is different from having your cake and eat it), how would you say?
I'm trying to find an example, but at the very moment I have no imagination
sorry
sole


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## giovannino

Most dictionaries translate it as "manage to have it both ways" and one also gives "have one's cake and eat it" but I agree with Jo that these phrases are not quite the same as "salvare capra e cavoli". 
Take this definition I found:

_uscire senza danno da una situazione pericolosa o spiacevole riuscendo allo stesso tempo a salvare interessi opposti o conciliando esigenze diverse_

I think that the translations suggested so far do not convey the _uscire senza danno da una situazione pericolosa o spiacevole_ part of the definition.

It is also often used when somebody, say, a politician, chooses the worst possible compromise instead of doing the right thing, for example Berlusconi trying to please Bossi and Fini at the same time on a thorny issue.


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## london calling

giovannino said:


> Most dictionaries translate it as "manage to have it both ways" and one also gives "have one's cake and eat it" but I agree with Jo that these phrases are not quite the same as "salvare capra e cavoli".
> Take this definition I found:
> 
> _uscire senza danno da una situazione pericolosa o spiacevole riuscendo allo stesso tempo a salvare interessi opposti o conciliando esigenze diverse_
> 
> I think that the translations suggested so far do not convey the _uscire senza danno da una situazione pericolosa o spiacevole_ part of the definition.
> 
> It is also often used when somebody, say, a politician, chooses the worst possible compromise instead of doing the right thing, for example Berlusconi trying to please Bossi and Fini at the same time on a thorny issue.


 
Caro Giovannino

Centro!!!

This is exactly the problem. We need to do a little brainstorming here, I think! 

I'm sure there must be an English expression/phrase somewhere in the world which conveys that idea, but I've been turning it over in my head since yesterday afternoon and cannot think of anything for the life of me....I'm not giving up, but I need some inspiration...


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## You little ripper!

It appears to me that it means *to successfully complete two seemingly incompatible undertakings*. Is that right Jo and giovanni? Maybe *to kill two completely different birds with one stone. *


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## london calling

Charles Costante said:


> It appears to me that it means *to successfully complete two seemingly incompatible undertakings*. Is that right Jo and giovanni? Maybe *to kill two completely different birds with one stone.*


 
Hello, Charles!

I must admit I thought about "killing two birds with one stone" (prendere due piccioni con una fava) and came to the same conclusion you've obviously come to, i.e. it's not quite the same thing, so you have to add words to it....

By the way, have you tried solving the riddle?!

Jo


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## You little ripper!

london calling said:


> Hello, Charles!
> 
> I must admit I thought about "killing two birds with one stone" (prendere due piccioni con una fava) and came to the same conclusion you've obviously come to, i.e. it's not quite the same thing, so you have to add words to it....
> 
> Jo


Language is a constantly evolving thing and we're the ones who change it. If there isn't an idiom that fits we can make one up. Adapting one that is already there is my attempt at making one up.  



> By the way, have you tried solving the riddle?!


No, I have brain fag. I might try to in the morning.


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## Alan7075

If we're making it up, I would say:

"Killing two birds with one stone and getting back the stone "

Or, maybe, using a boomerang to kill 2 birds. The fact that it gets back to you can go unsaid 

Would that make any sense?
Ciao Ciao


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## You little ripper!

Alan7075 said:


> If we're making it up, I would say:
> 
> "Killing two birds with one stone and getting back the stone "
> 
> Or, maybe, using a boomerang to kill 2 birds. The fact that it gets back to you can go unsaid
> 
> Would that make any sense?
> Ciao Ciao


I like that one Alan (being Australian, I'm prejudiced ). I would say *killing two completely different birds with one boomerang. *


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## london calling

Charles Costante said:


> I like that one Alan (being Australian, I'm prejudiced ). I would say *killing two completely different birds with one boomerang. *


 

Yes, I think we can go for that!!!!!!


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## shining Sun

london calling said:


> By the way, have you tried solving the riddle?!


 
I have, haven't you seen it????????

-----------------------

Wow!
This post is getting very funny and interesting 
I'm glad I've started it.
Killing two completely different birds with one boomerang is really nice. I like it!
Thanks all of you for your great brainstorming!!!

-----------------------

In conclusion,
it seems like there's no existing equivalent of the italian idiom _"salvar capra e cavolo"_ in the English language. Should we coin it anew, we could say either "to kill two completely different birds with one stone and get back the stone" or "to kill two completely different birds with a boomerang", right?
No other suggestions?
What I find weird is that it seems that English natives never find themselves in such a situation, in which they have to make a decision which in a way solves two problems at once, or please two people at once, otherwise they would have an equivalent idiom, wouldn't they?
An example could be: My mum wants to spend some time with me and the children, my husband doesn't want to waste his holiday staying with my mum, so I solve it saying to my husband: the week before you finish working, I'll go to my parents and spend a week with them, the week after we'll go on holiday to the sea or wherever.
In this way, _I've "saved capra e cavolo"_
Does it make any sense to you?

Thank you very much for all your contributes
sole


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## london calling

shining Sun said:


> In conclusion,
> it seems like there's no existing equivalent of the italian idiom _"salvar capra e cavolo"_ in the English language. Should we coin it anew, we could say either "to kill two completely different birds with one stone and get back the stone" or "to kill two completely different birds with a boomerang", right?
> No other suggestions?
> What I find weird is that it seems that English natives never find themselves in such a situation, in which they have to make a decision which in a way solves two problems at once, or please two people at once, otherwise they would have an equivalent idiom, wouldn't they?
> An example could be: My mum wants to spend some time with me and the children, my husband doesn't want to waste his holiday staying with my mum, so I solve it saying to my husband: the week before you finish working, I'll go to my parents and spend a week with them, the week after we'll go on holiday to the sea or wherever.
> In this way, _I've "saved capra e cavolo"_
> Does it make any sense to you?
> 
> Thank you very much for all your contributes
> sole


 
You're welcome, sole!

The problem is that we understand exactly what it means but we're unable to translate it!
I love the "boomerang" thing, but like Charles, I'm prejudiced, having lived in Oz as a kid......


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## jobu

Ciao shining Sun;

I just re-read this thread, and am wondering if the phrase "a win-win situation" might work. In your example of the holiday problem/solution, I think this fits the bill.
Ciao
Jo


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## prowlerxpla

I think that "kill two completely (why completely?) different birds with one boomerang" doesn't match with "salvare capra e cavoli", because in capra e cavoli is implicit the ability to solve a problem and in the boomerang I cannot see it.
I think we have to focus on the ability not on the solution (boomerang) 
Hope it helps


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## london calling

prowlerxpla said:


> I think that "kill two completely (why completely?) different birds with one boomerang" doesn't match with "salvare capra e cavoli", because in capra e cavoli is implicit the ability to solve a problem and in the boomerang I cannot see it.
> I think we have to focus on the ability not on the solution (boomerang)
> Hope it helps


 

Hello!
I wouldn't take it that seriously, if I were you - we were, of course, joking!

We actually came to the conclusion that it is virtually impossible to render the expression (which you use in Italian and we don't, even if the riddle was written by an Englishman, in Latin).

As regards "completely": that simply serves to emphasise the BIG difference between two birds - _uccelli completamente diversi_...

Ciao e scusaci, ma l'_humour _già ce l'abbiamo nel DNA........poi qualche amico italiano ci "aizza" e non la finiamo più!


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## prowlerxpla

london calling said:


> Hello!
> I wouldn't take it that seriously, if I were you - we were, of course, joking!


 Joking of course 



london calling said:


> We actually came to the conclusion that it is virtually impossible to render the expression (which you use in Italian and we don't, even if the riddle was written by an Englishman, in Latin).


It should be funny if you should use a riddle written by a Romanman in English!



london calling said:


> As regards "completely": that simply serves to emphasise the BIG difference between two birds - _uccelli completamente diversi_...


Thanks



london calling said:


> Ciao e scusaci, ma l'_humour _già ce l'abbiamo nel DNA........poi qualche amico italiano ci "aizza" e non la finiamo più!


Dont worry, I have the same DNA


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## london calling

prowlerxpla said:


> Dont worry, I have the same DNA


 
Just as well! _Se non sono pazzi non li vogliamo_.......
Jo


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## jacquesvd

Charles Costante said:


> I like that one Alan (being Australian, I'm prejudiced ). I would say *killing two completely different birds with one boomerang. *


 
The expression has an exact equivalent in Dutch 'de kool en de geit sparen' which means 'not to want to chose between two opposed opinions' and possibly reconcile them, actually wanting to salvage both. At school this idiom was translated in English by 'to run with the hare and to hunt with the hounds' . It's perhaps not identical but certainly the closest of all the idioms I read so far and it's a standing expression.



jacquesvd said:


> The expression has an exact equivalent in Dutch 'de kool en de geit sparen' which means 'not to want to chose between two opposed opinions' and possibly reconcile them, actually wanting to salvage both. At school this idiom was translated in English by 'to run with the hare and to hunt with the hounds' . It's perhaps not identical but certainly the closest of all the idioms I read so far and it's a standing expression.


 
The English expression 'to run with the hare and to hunt with the hounds' clearly expresses the refusal to chose which is the essential part of the Dutch and also Italian expression and the only slight difference I perceive is that in Flemish the accent lies on the fact that one wants to keep two parties, defending different opinions, satisfied, whereas in English, at least to me, it sounds a little bit more like double-heartedness.

Anyway I now checked my Dutch-English dictionary and it's the only translation offered.


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## lemonjuice

what about : " keep one foot in both camps" ??
tenere un piede in due staffe ........

Bè ci ho provato!!
ciao e buon anno in ritardo!!


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## CPA

The French equivalent of "salvare capra e cavoli" is translated as "to run with the hare and hold with the hounds".


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## You little ripper!

Rereading the thread, I don't thinking _killing two birds with one stone_ fits. OP translates 'salvare capra e cavolo' with _to have a foot in both camps_.  It  translates 'to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds' with _dare un colpo al cerchio e uno alla botte._

Hoepli translates 'salvare capra e cavolo' with _to have one’s cake and eat it, to have the best of both worlds. _It translates 'to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds' with  _tenere il piede in due staffe, dare un colpo al cerchio e uno alla botte._


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## Beccaccia

london calling said:


> Paul
> This is "non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca". It's similar, but it's not quite the same!
> 
> Non mi viene in mente niente, però.....
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: It's a riddle, written in by an English monk, not a proverb! But it's in Latin...
> 
> Da www.micheblog.wordpress.com:
> Nell’ *VIII* secolo, l’imperatore *Carlo Magno* chiamò alla sua corte un monaco inglese: un certo *Alcuino da York*. Da vero mecenate, l’imperatore amava la cultura e ne capiva, con grande intuito e lungimiranza, l’importanza strategica (e ci si potrebbe chiedere dove è finita tale sensibilità oggi?? Ma questa è un’altra storia…).
> Posto a capo della _Schola Palatina_, Alcuino seppe dimostrare le sue abilità non solo di uomo di lettere, ma di valente pedagogo. Il suo libro _Propositiones ad acuendos juvenes_, “Problemi per rendere arguti i giovani” è una raccolta di indovinelli, giochi e quesiti matematici, di straordinaria attualità.
> Uno dei problemi è la _*Propositio de lupo et capra et fasciculo cauli:*_ _Un uomo deve attraversare un fiume, trasferendo la capra, il lupo ed il cavolo. Dispone tuttavia di una barca con solo due posti. Inoltre non può lasciare la capra sola con il cavolo, nè il lupo solo con la capra._ ​Chi ha capito come può fare il nostro amico a far attraversare a tutti il fiume, *salvando capra e cavolo? *
> 
> NEW EDIT: It's almost always used in Latin! A maths proferssor used it for teaching and presented it as the "classic " problem of the wolf, the goat and a head of cabbage......


Hi Jo I wish you Happy New Year, and thank you for the many enlightening posts, educational, and just a touch of frivolity. Molo Bravi. mai molare.

_I would say the answer to the riddle is this_; "*The man eats the cabbage, and sits in the boat, next to the goat, with the fox on his lap"  *
thereby everything (every one) crosses the river at one time.

_*fasciculo*_ . . . . Dictionary/  issue or booklet. . .    I don't understand this word with cabbage any suggestions welcome.

Grazie per tutti

Post Script.   The comment:  "_to have one’s cake and eat it" does _not_ make sense, I am sure the expression is "*You cannot have your cake and eat it too"*_

M


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## You little ripper!

The Free dictionary defines 'salvare capra e cavolo':_ risolvere un problema conciliando esigenze opposte. _Wikipedia says: _
*Salvare capra e cavoli* è un modo di dire, con cui si intende salvaguardare con una decisione gli interessi di due soggetti._

Maybe something along the lines of _coming to a compromise/finding a happy medium/coming to a successful resolution__?
_


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## Il Reine

"Salvare capra e cavoli" dà il senso di salvare il salvabile, mentre "prendere due piccioni con una fava" quello di un profitto facile, un beneficio ottenuto senza sforzi.


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## naime

burning a candle on two sides?


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## longplay

london calling said:


> It's that as well, you're quite right!



"Salvare capra e cavoli" può avere 2 significati che dipendono dal contesto:1- "ma cosa pretendi da me?... non posso mica salvare capra e cavoli"( vuoi botte piena
e moglie ubriaca?). 2- "E' riuscito a salvare capra e cavoli" ("kill two different birds...")


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## borisba

Hello everyone!


naime said:


> burning a candle on two sides?


I would have proposed something similar. What about "to be able to have the bread buttered on both sides"?


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## theartichoke

Nobody pointed it out in 2012, but "to burn your candle at both ends" means that you're working too hard. And as far as expressions about buttered bread go, I've only head "to know what side one's bread is buttered on," which means something like "to know what course of action is most profitable for oneself." 

It seems clear from the thread itself that the English equivalent of "salvare capra e cavoli" is very much context-dependent.


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## london calling

borisba said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I would have proposed something similar. What about "to be able to have the bread buttered on both sides"?


Hello Boris.

The answer to that is no, I agree with theartichoke, for the same reasons. By the way:

butter their bread on both sides. I quote:

*butter (one's) bread on both sides*
 (redirected from _butter their bread on both sides_)
*butter (one's) bread on both sides*
1. To benefit or profit from two or more separate and often contradictory or incompatible things or sources.The CEO buttered her bread on both sides, secretly investing in oil companies while publicly backing green energy initiatives to gain popular support.
2. To live comfortably, especially wastefully or in lavish, indulgent excess.The duke was accused of buttering his bread on both sides, adorning every inch of his home in gold and jewels and holding feasts far too large for the people who attended them.


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## rrose17

What about "to have it both ways" which is a fairly common expression meaning pretty much what's been written above. To put into a Canadian context our Prime Minister is trying to balance promoting a pipe line to transport oil from a very conservative oil rich part of the country through and into a very progressive part of the country where it's meeting a lot of resistance.
_You can't have it both ways Mr. T, you need to take a stand._
Could you say
_Non si può salvare capra e cavoli sig. T. Deve prendere posizione._


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