# Brazilian Portuguese and Argentinian Spanish



## avok

Hi,

I am surprised by some similarities between Brazilian Portuguese and Argentinian Spanish in terms of pronunciation.

For ex.: "My name is..." is "Me chamo" in Brazilian Portuguese and "Me llamo" in Argentinian Spanish. The interesting thing is that "Me chamo" and "Me llamo" sound almost the same in both countries!

Whereas, they sound different enough in the Continent. European Portuguese "Chamo-me" and Castillian Spanish " Me llamo" sound related yet obviously different. And even other Spanish accents do not share the same similarity with Brazilian Portuguese. 

Can we say that those two language varities influenced each other in any way during their evolutions ?


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## ronanpoirier

I really do think they may have something in common, but when it comes to vocabulary, not phonetics.

What happened is that somehow Spanish LL/Y got to be pronounced as [zh] in Argentina and Uruguay. Nowadays that sound became unvoiced, so it is pronounced as [sh]. If you take a look in Spanish and Portuguese history, *I believe* you'll see that Latin "cl", "pl" and "fl" in initial position became in various cases "ll" in Spanish (sounding [lh]) and "ch" in Portuguese (sounding [tsh] and later [sh]). Later, the Spanish sound changed into [j] or [dzh], although in some places "ll" is still [lh]. What happened in Argentina and Uruguay I already said: somehow it became [zh] and nowadays it was unvoiced. Maybe influence of the inmigrants. I'm not sure about that. That's why the words sound almost the same.

Now, if you think of vocabulary, surely you'll find a lot of similarities, especially in the vocabulary spoken here in South Brazil. Argentinians and Uruguayans even say "brasilero" instead of "brasileño".


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## Hulalessar

"ll" is in fact pronounced as [zh] in some parts of Spain.


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## JGreco

> "ll" is in fact pronounced as [zh] in some parts of Spain.


 

In fact in many parts of Latin American the [zh] pronunciation is common especially in varieties of Caribbean Spanish.


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## avok

JGreco said:


> In fact in many parts of Latin American the [zh] pronunciation is common especially in varieties of Caribbean Spanish.


 
I remember you said in another thread it was common in Panama so in Panama "Me llamo" sounds like "me zhamo"? (me jamo -with portuguese j-)


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## sokol

JGreco said:


> In fact in many parts of Latin American the [zh] pronunciation is common especially in varieties of Caribbean Spanish.



In fact in initial position the pronunciation of 'll' as a fricative/affricate (I am not quite sure what sound [zh] should be) is very common not only in Latin America but in Spain too. It isn't even considered non-standard pronunciation, I think.

Both my Mexican and my Spanish teacher (both with very different accents) pronounce 'llamar' as '[dʒ]amar' (the nearest English sound to [dʒ] would be the 'j' in words like 'just').

I even heard [dʒ] regularly used for the Spanish 'y' sound in initial word position in the Spanish film (with Spanish accent) 'El laberinto del fauno'; especially the _fauno _himself spoke like that.


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## avok

"zh" is French "j" Germans tend to pronounce it like "sh" in English.


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## sokol

avok said:


> "zh" is French "j" Germans tend to pronounce it like "sh" in English.



Well, this (French 'j' as in 'je') then would be Slavic /ž/ or IPA /ʒ/ and not /dʒ/ as posted by me above.

But what is nothing out of the ordinary at least in Mexican Spanish (I can't be sure for other Latin American accents) and Iberian Spanish is /dʒ/. So if Argentinian Spanish has /ʒ/ instead this might be:
- a simple internal process which has nothing to do with language contact with Brazilian Portuguese, or else
- a phenomenon which is due to language contact with Brazil
Might be a third explanation still.

As I do know next to nothing about Argentinian Spanish I can only guess here.


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## tom_in_bahia

Well, I agree that initially, Spanish and Portuguese had some similar changes from Latin (though the reactions by each language were not the same).

I am not very familiar with dialectal variations of Argentina (other than /j/ --> /S/, where S=show), but having spoken with Argentinians, I know more or less what their accent sounds like - if and when I hear it again.

Brazilians have some interesting dialectal variation in the north that can cause people to, on a non-fact basis, believe Spanish is having some influence.

Example: a gente is pronounced /a he~tSi/ instead of /a Ze~tSi/ (where tS=chair and Z=pleasure). I noticed this pronunciation in northwestern Brazil, especially by rural populations, but nothing leads me to believe that Spanish gente /hente/ had an impact on this change, as several Brazilians have suggested. In reality, S (sh)/Z (zh)/h/X (H) are all related sounds, so a long time ago, when gente was pronounced /Sente/ or /Zente/ in Spanish (not sure which), the sounds went through shifts that gave us the /hente/ of today's Spanish. The /he~tSi/ of rural northwestern Brazil, is not likely related to Spanish directly, but rather related in the fact that the sound shift is a logical possibility given the sound ranges of the human mouth.

Another one that probably IS Spanish-influenced is "empurrar" in Portuguese, which would be pronounced /e~pu'ha(h)/, corresponding to Spanish "empujar" /empu'har/. "rr" was not always /h/ in Portuguese, and neither was "j" in Spanish, so this one really confuses me, because the spoken language changes faster than the written language, yet in this example we have the same word in two different languages that is spelled completely different, but has led evolutionarily to a VERY similar pronunciation in the spoken language...therefore, you have to conclude that sometime in the last 100-200 years, one language's "push" influenced the other's. Not sure which direction, though...


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## avok

sokol said:


> Well, this (French 'j' as in 'je') then would be Slavic /ž/ or IPA /ʒ/ and not /dʒ/ as posted by me above.
> 
> But what is nothing out of the ordinary at least in Mexican Spanish (I can't be sure for other Latin American accents) and Iberian Spanish is /dʒ/. So if Argentinian Spanish has /ʒ/ instead this might be:
> - a simple internal process which has nothing to do with language contact with Brazilian Portuguese, or else
> - a phenomenon which is due to language contact with Brazil
> Might be a third explanation still.
> 
> As I do know next to nothing about Argentinian Spanish I can only guess here.


 
Actually, Sokol, Argentinians pronounce this "ll" like *"sh",*  just like the Brazilians pronounce "ch" as "sh" so as I explained before :

Argentinians (unlike other Spanish speaking peoples) pronounce "llamo" as "*sh*amo" and Brazilians pronounce "chamo" as "*sh*amo" that's what I found interesting.  
The "dj" you mentioned is quite common among Spanish speakers but, that's not what I asked about.


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## tom_in_bahia

avok said:


> Actually, Sokol, Argentinians pronounce this "ll" like *"sh",*  just like the Brazilians pronounce "ch" as "sh" so as I explained before :
> 
> Argentinians (unlike other Spanish speaking peoples) pronounce "llamo" as "*sh*amo" and Brazilians pronounce "chamo" as "*sh*amo" that's what I found interesting.
> The "dj" you mentioned is quite common among Spanish speakers but, that's not what I asked about.



You could use the metaphor of a road that forks out and joins together again later (----<====>----). 

_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./Span:_ llamar [jamar] . . . . . \
_Latin:_ clamare-----<========================>-----[Sama(*~h~r~R)]
_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . \Port: _chamar [Sama(*~h~r)]/


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## avok

That's a nice metaphor but what I'd like to know why Argentinian Spanish decided to join again later ...

Argentinian Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese pronounce the verb "llamar / chamar" as "shamar" because of the same linguistic phenomenon?

PS. In that Brazilian region where people pronounce "gente" as "henchi" instead of "jenchi", are all the words that begin with "ge.." pronounced as "he.."?? I guess not,


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## Outsider

sokol said:


> Well, this (French 'j' as in 'je') then would be Slavic /ž/ or SAMPA /Z/ and not /dZ/ as posted by me above.
> 
> _[Edited to SAMPA in grey because my browser eats up IPA.]_


Some sources say that the Spanish "y" (along with "ll" in most dialects) is affricated allophonically at the start of words, so it could be that you heard both. 

For *empurrar/empujar*, see the other thread.


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## tom_in_bahia

avok said:


> That's a nice metaphor but what I'd like to know why Argentinian Spanish decided to join again later ...



Well, it's not that Argentinians planned this, and I'm sure a large segment of society doesn't even really ponder the origin of the word or its relationship to Portuguese pronunciation of the cognate.

With that in mind, think of the way that herb is pronounced in America and in England, and now think of the French pronunciation. They all came from an H sounding word, yet the French and Americans no longer pronounce the H. (in this case, an argument about mimicking the French could be made for the reason the American pronunciation lacks the sound at the beginning).

Another example could be made with "fue" in some dialects of Mexican Spanish:

Fue, comes from Latin originally (no clue how you'd spell it...maybe _fost_??)
At any rate, fue is pronounced /fwe/ in general pronunciation while some rural dialects of Mexican Spanish pronounce it /Hwe/ where H is not /h/ but rather the bilabial "f" of Japanese. About 400-500 years ago, Spanish went through a sound shift of /f/-->(/H/???-->)/h/-->/0~zero/

Ex: facer (/fa'8er/) --> /ha'8er/ --> hacer /a'8er/ or /a'ser/ 

The urban, _Madrid-centric_ centers of upper-class registers and the upwardly mobile middle-class that would imitate them, probably controlled the pace for the change in the cities, while having little influence over rural, lower-class dialects. So, the shift still hasn't progressed to 'nul' in parts of rural Mexico, though I'm sure dwellers and speakers of the region are aware of the change in register.


My point here is that ll was originally /lj/ (representing a palatal lateral approximate), so, in reality, the road forks even more...

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . *__* /dZa'mR/
. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . .. . .*/*
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*/___ */lja'maR/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..*__/*
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..*___*llamar /lja'maR/ (_Span._)*__/*. . *\____*/ja'maR/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . */*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..*\*
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .*/*. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..*\______*/Sa'maR/
CLAMARE (_Latin_)*--<*
. . . . . . . . . .. . . . *\*
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .*\___*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..*_________
*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..chamar /Sa'maR/ (_Port._). . . . . . . . /Sa'ma*/


In this chart, time is expressed on a left to right, horizontal scale, where far right is the present and far left is Roman times. The link between the /kl/ of latin and the /lj/ of Spanish and /S/ of Portuguese is not clear to me, however, it could be two things. Either in Latin times cl did not represent the sound /kl/ as we think of it today, but rather some type of palatal approximate that does not exist anymore in human speech; or, it could be that in Spanish, the two consonants merged into a sound halfway in between in formation in the mouth, while Portuguese went the other way towards /S/.  Not sure there though, any ideas??


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## tom_in_bahia

avok said:


> PS. In that Brazilian region where people pronounce "gente" as "henchi" instead of "jenchi", are all the words that begin with "ge.." pronounced as "he.."?? I guess not,



Not that I'm aware of...but I didn't exactly conduct field work......it'd make a good linguistic anthropology master's thesis.


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## Outsider

tom_in_bahia said:


> Another example could be made with "fue" in some dialects of Mexican Spanish:
> 
> Fue, comes from Latin originally (no clue how you'd spell it...maybe _fost_??


Fuit. 



tom_in_bahia said:


> The link between the /kl/ of latin and the /lj/ of Spanish and /S/ of Portuguese is not clear to me, however, it could be two things. Either in Latin times cl did not represent the sound /kl/ as we think of it today, but rather some type of palatal approximate that does not exist anymore in human speech; or, it could be that in Spanish, the two consonants merged into a sound halfway in between in formation in the mouth, while Portuguese went the other way towards /S/.  Not sure there though, any ideas??


If I remember well, it's usually described as a palatalization. Compare with Italian _chiamare_. Possibly, the /k/ in the /kl/ cluster did acquire a palatal pronunciation at some stage. IPA [c]? Just speculating...

The original Portuguese pronunciation was an affricate, by the way, /tS/.


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## tom_in_bahia

Outsider said:


> Fuit.
> 
> If I remember well, it's usually described as a palatalization. Compare with Italian _chiamare_. Possibly, the /k/ in the /kl/ cluster did acquire a palatal pronunciation at some stage. IPA [c]? Just speculating...



Totally, because if you look at the IPA chart, a sort of medium point between /k/ and /l/ is formed both at the /lj/-symbol (upside down y) and /S/, almost like the original Vulgar Latin speakers did find an easy way out by finding the halfway point, just each language found a different halfway point, and the Italian word actually does validate that idea! Good idea...


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## tom_in_bahia

Outsider said:


> The original Portuguese pronunciation was an affricate, by the way, /tS/.



Even better, I was just wondering if, like French, the 'ch' was once a /tS/ and then later became a /S/.


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## avok

Outsider said:


> The original Portuguese pronunciation was an affricate, by the way, /tS/.


 As in Gallego !


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## MarX

avok said:


> Argentinians (unlike other Spanish speaking peoples) pronounce "llamo" as "*sh*amo" and Brazilians pronounce "chamo" as "*sh*amo" that's what I found interesting.


I'm pretty sure that the Uruguayans also say "*sh*amo".

It's is interesting how many similarities Brazilian and Argentinian have.
For example in Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, and Bolivia, all bordering Brazil, the pronoun *vos* is used instead of *tú*.
In Brazil *você* is used instead of *tu*.

Saludos


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## treulen

> I'm pretty sure that the Uruguayans also say "*sh*amo".


Yes, we really do it. But we do the same with all words with "LL", is not a precise case but a generalized way of pronounciation.



> For example in Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, and Bolivia, all bordering Brazil, the pronoun *vos* is used instead of *tú*.
> In Brazil *você* is used instead of *tu*.


 
I don't think it's due to a border effect. As a counterexample, some regions in Uruguay (Rocha and Treinta y Tres departaments) actually use "tu" insetad of "vos", and they are indeed next to the Brazil-Uruguay frontnier. 
I think the "voseo" came from those Spanish regions which used it centuries ago. But there's a lot of threads about that...


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## Outsider

Also, _você_ and _vos_ are not cognates. The Portuguese cognate of _vos_ is _vós_.


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## avok

Yes, I was told the Uruguayans also say "shamo". Yes, another similarity: the use of "vos" in Argentina and "voce" in Brazil instead of "tu"!! (though they have different etymologies)


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## treulen

avok said:


> Yes, I was told the Uruguayans also say "shamo". Yes, another similarity: the use of "vos" in Argentina and "voce" in Brazil instead of "tu"!! (though they have different etymologies)


...¿?

Read again my post


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## avok

I re-read your post. That's what I am saying too.


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## sokol

Outsider said:


> Some sources say that the Spanish "y" (along with "ll" in most dialects) is affricated allophonically at the start of words, so it could be that you heard both.



This indeed is a fact; I've heard it, numerous times.
(But you could say that there are three free allophones in this position for 'y': 'dzh', 'y' and 'll' = 'l molle'. All three seem to be considered standard, as far as I know, and differ according to region; in Spain, all three seem to exist.)
Sorry for all of you who operate browsers that eat up IPA - for those my post certainly could not be clear.

I have heard pronounce a voiced affricate (*'dzh'* if you like, where 'd' = voiced plosive + 'zh' = voiced 'sh'-sound as in Slavic '*ž*ena', French 'gara*g*e' or '*j*e', etc.) especially (but not exclusively) *at the beginning of a word *instead of the standard Spanish sound of /y/ (= unsyllabic 'i' or - in German and Slavic languages - 'j') numerous times, no matter if this 'y' sound is the one in 'llamar' (depending on region, the 'll' is an 'y' or an 'l molle') or the one in 'yo'.

It is a feature so widespread that even my Spanish grammar is mentioning it, and it is not restricted to Latin America or Spain; as written above I've heard it from both my Mexican and my Spanish teacher (who both were rather careful to pronounce Spanish according to their standard norm, respectively).

And of course I know that it is something different if it is the case (which, as we seem to have established now, indeed *is *the case) that the same sound would be pronounced as *'zh'* (= no affricata but just the voiced fricative) in Argentina and Uruguay.

Nevertheless, there is *absolutely no need* to assume Brazilian influence here: even though Brazilian-Portuguese influence *might *have played a role here (and the geographic closeness suggests as much) there is no proof at all that this ever has happened (that is, a possible Brazilian influence on accents in Uruguay and Argentina). To proof anything like that one would have to show more than just a 'likeliness' - but additional material (possibly historical evidence, or possibly there already is or was a scientific discussion on this phenomenon).

What I *did *state in my last post is that I simply can't tell if there was any influence or if not.

Certainly the change of 'dzh' to 'zh' phonetically could be explained easily, no foreign influence would be necessary here - this would be just a weakening of affricates, it has happened many times in the history of many languages. Equally, the change of Brazilian 'ch' to 'zh' is somethin which could easily explained phonetically.

And on the other hand the opposite too could be true, too - the similarity could be due to mutual influence between Argentine Spanish and Brazil Portuguese.

That's all what I said in my previous post - with just that tiny little bit less words than in this one.


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## Outsider

sokol said:


> Sorry for all of you who operate browsers that eat up IPA - for those my post certainly could not be clear.


Oh, don't worry! I can _read_ the IPA symbols perfectly. It's just that I can't type them, and when I quote a piece of text with those symbols they turn into pumpkins like Cinderella's carriage.


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## avok

Hulalessar said:


> "ll" is in fact pronounced as [zh] in some parts of Spain.


 

I guess you mean "dj". Because "zh" is believed to be found only in Rioplatense Spanish.

There is something that I dont understand though, many sources say that Argentinian Spanish has "zh" but when I asked some Argentinians I met, they said that it is not "zh" (French j) but the English "sh" they have. 

So, "Yo" sounds as "Sho" not as "Jo" (French J)!


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## Outsider

avok said:


> There is something that I dont understand though, many sources say that Argentinian Spanish has "zh" but when I asked some Argentinians I met, they said that it is not "zh" (French j) but the English "sh" they have.


From what I've read, both "sh" and "zh" exist in Argentinian Spanish, depending on the region. It's likely, though, that most natives don't notice the difference between these two. Remember that one characteristic of modern Spanish is that it has no voiced-voiceless distinctions for fricatives.


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## avok

Maybe... but I can tell the difference and when I asked them to pronounce words like "llamo", "llorar" they pronounced them as "shamo" and "shorar" (just like in Portuguese for the record ) but not as "zhamo" or "zhorar". That's how I noticed the similarity between the Portuguese and Argentinian pronunciation.

One of the Argentinian girls I met said that they dont say "zho" but "sho" (for "yo")however, some (old) aristocrats in Argentina may pronounce "ll" as "zh" to sound more French! But she said it is just an idea.


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Maybe... but I can tell the difference and when I asked them to pronounce words like "llamo", "llorar" they pronounced them as "shamo" and "shorar" (just like in Portuguese for the record ) but not as "zhamo" or "zhorar". That's how I noticed the similarity between the Portuguese and Argentinian pronunciation.


In line with what Sokol wrote above, are you sure it wasn't actually closer to "djamo", "djorar"?


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## avok

Outsider said:


> In line with what Sokol wrote above, are you sure it wasn't actually closer to "djamo", "djorar"?


 
Nope, it was 100% "shamo", "shorar" just like in Portuguese. But why did you ask this question?  Are not we all sure that Rioplatense "ll" is "sh"?


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## Outsider

avok said:


> Are not we all sure that Rioplatense "ll" is "sh"?


I am not, because as I wrote before, and Sokol confirmed, the Spanish phoneme "y" often becomes an affricate at the start of words. I don't know if this happens in all dialects (I would have guessed that it doesn't in those where "ll" is still distinguished from "y", and pronounced as a palatal lateral), but for all I know it may well occur in Rioplatense Spanish.

Furthermore, you yourself have said that some people pronounce it as "zh". (This _never_ happens with Portuguese "ch", by the way. Portuguese scrupulously distinguishes voiced fricatives from voiceless fricatives.)


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## avok

Outsider said:


> I am not, because as I wrote before, and Sokol confirmed, the Spanish phoneme "y" often becomes an affricate at the start of words. I don't know if this happens in all dialects (I would have guessed that it doesn't in those where "ll" is still distinguished from "y", and pronounced as a palatal lateral), but for all I know it may well occur in Rioplatense Spanish.
> 
> Furthermore, you yourself have said that some people pronounce it as "zh". (This _never_ happens with Portuguese "ch", by the way. Portuguese scrupulously distinguishes voiced fricatives from voiceless fricatives.)


 
Hmmm I see, no it is not me but some books and internet sites say that they pronounce "ll" as "zh" but I hear just "sh" (not "dj").

Look what I found in wikipedia:



> *Rioplatense Spanish* distinguishes itself from other dialects of Spanish by the pronunciation of certain consonants.
> 
> Like many other dialects, Rioplatense features yeísmo: the sounds represented by _ll_ (the palatal lateral /ʎ/) and _y_ (historically the palatal approximant /j/) have fused into one. This merged phoneme is generally pronounced as a postalveolar fricative, either voiced [ʒ] in the central and western parts of the dialect region (this phenomenon is called _zheísmo_) or voiceless *[ʃ]* in and around Buenos Aires (called _*sheísmo*_) These are the sounds in English _measure_ and _mission_, or the French _j_ and _ch_, respectively. That is, in Rioplatense, _se cayó_ "he fell down" is homophonous with _se calló_ "he became silent".


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## ronanpoirier

I guess no one read what I said. But, oh well.

*In Argentina and Uruguay LL/Y is pronounced like [zh] or [sh]. The difference depends on the area of the country and the age of the spaker. Newer generations seem to prefer the unvoiced version. But does that happen in the whole countries? I'm not sure about Uruguay, but I heard an Argentinian singer whose LL/Y was like [dzh].*
Here's a sample of an Argentinian singer from Rosario. He speaks with [zh].
Here's the same song sung by some younger singers. They speak with [sh] (although one of the girls seems so say [zh] sometimes).

 Has Brazilian Portuguese influenced in Rioplatense Spanish phonetics? I really doubt so. I think the opposite is possible. The Portuguese from the people who live in the neighbouring area with Argentina and Uruguay have some features that differ from Portuguese of other places:
- "ti" and "di" are pronounced [ti] and [di] and not [tshi] or [dzhi] as in other places;
- final unstressed "te" and "de" are pronounced [te/të] or [de/dë] and not [tshi] or [dzhi] as in other places;
- "l" in coda position is a dark-L and not [w] as in other places;
- strong R is [rr] and not a guttural sound as in other places.

 I believe that the proximity to a Spanish speaking area made those characteristics (that exist in both European Portuguese and Spanish) not envolve as in other places of Brazil and then they were kept "intact". Of course you can find people who live there that speak "more Brazilian" and people who live in the big cities¹ that speak "more _borderish_²".
But I still keep on saying that vocabulary was surely shared between those languages in that area.

¹I mean only big cities of Rio Grande do Sul state.  In inner cities of both Rio Grande do Sul it is also pretty common even in younger generations. In inner cities of Santa Catarina, you'll find only the first 2 characterstics I pointed out. In the cities that are on the mountain range of Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina you'll find an Italian based Portuguese which has its own characteristics. In the cities that are by the sea shore of both states you'll find an Azorean Portuguese based dialect.

²speak borderish = speak in the way people who live by the Brazil-Argentina/Uruguay border do.

[zh] = as "s" in _pleasure_, French/Romanian/Turkish/Portuguese "j"
[sh] = as English sh, French/Portuguese "ch", German "sch", Italian "sc" before "e" or "i"
[w] = as English "w"
[lh] = as "ll" in million, Portuguese "lh", Italian "gli"
[tsh] = as English "ch", Italian/Romanian "c" before "e" or "i"
[dzh] = as English "j", Italian/Romanian "g" before "e" or "i"
_ = as many languages "i"
[ë] = schwa

__
_


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## ronanpoirier

By the way, Paraguayan Spanish is also Rioplatense Spanish (they use "vos" and stuff) but there "ll" is [lh] and "y" is [dzh]. That's how my friend from Asunción speaks.


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## MarX

The Argentinians I know use mostly /sh/. I hardly ever hear them saying /zh/.


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## JGreco

LL and Y= [zh] is not just a Rio Platense pronunciation. It also occurs in some varieties of Caribbean Spanish dialects. In those dialects they also have nasalization of words that end in "N" and "L" and other features that occur or are in common with some features in Br. Portuguese. I always thought that was odd. There is also aspiration of the "s's" in those dialects too. The reason nobody knows of those features is because those dialects are hardly studied while Rio Platense is a very studied dialect of Castellano while other dialects have been largely ignored.


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## sokol

ronanpoirier said:


> By the way, Paraguayan Spanish is also Rioplatense Spanish (they use "vos" and stuff) but there "ll" is [lh] and "y" is [dzh]. That's how my friend from Asunción speaks.



Then, in this respect (treatment of 'll' and 'y'), Paraguayan Spanish is rather close to Peninsular Spanish and Mexican Spanish, as far as I can tell (from a very small sample of, however, two teachers) even though other characteristics are Rioplatense.

Anyway, your post really is a good argument against Brasilian influence on Rioplatese Spanish. And of course we (or, at least, I ) accept your statement that really 'sh' and 'zh' are the most common pronunciations in Rioplatese - even if there might also exist 'dzh' (or at least does in Paraguayan).

As already stated above phonetically the development of 'dzh' into 'zh' (and further) 'sh' is no mystery at all (these sounds all are close phonetically) and does not necessarily need a foreign influence.


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## avok

*ronanpoirier !!*

Do not worry, I re-read your posts and yes you are "totally right" (are you happy now? )

I listened to the links you provided and yes, I heard both "French j" and "sh" !! Now I also think that the younger generations use "sh". And yes, one of the girls (the one with pink shirt) has "French j" !! I could clearly hear "sh"

ex: (I looked at the lyrics of course) ca*ll*es, pro*y*ecta, e*ll*as, *y*o etc.. all with "sh". Hmm the Argentinian accent is really charming  

Now I wonder how come "sh" became so widespread in Argentina.

Is Paraguayan Spanish "Rioplatense Spanish"?

PS: In the song , they pronounce the word "gitan" (Todos giran y giran) as "Shiran" / "zhiran"!!! (not hiran) Why? I know that the Spanish "g" is like " h" but not like "j" in Portuguese!


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## ronanpoirier

The verb is "yirar" actually. It's Argentinian slang. It comes from Italian "girare". It means the same as "girar" in Spanish. It has other meanings though. 
By the way, I heard a Mexican girl singing that same very song and she sang "girar" instead of "yirar". Probably because it's an unknown word in Mexico.


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## avok

Aaaa! Actually I dont speak Spanish so I had to check the lyrics  And it is written as "giran". So they write it the way it is written in Italian and they pronounce it with Argentinian accent! 

Do you think that this may be an Italian influence? Because some Italians(southerners?) would pronounce "girare" somewhere between "djirare" and "*zh*irare". Hence the Argentinian "zh" and then "sh".


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## MarX

avok said:


> Is Paraguayan Spanish "Rioplatense Spanish"?


I've always considered Rioplatense as including Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay.


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## avok

JGreco said:


> LL and Y= [zh] is not just a Rio Platense pronunciation. It also occurs in some varieties of Caribbean Spanish dialects. In those dialects they also have nasalization of words that end in "N" and "L" and other features that occur or are in common with some features in Br. Portuguese. I always thought that was odd. There is also aspiration of the "s's" in those dialects too. The reason nobody knows of those features is because those dialects are hardly studied while Rio Platense is a very studied dialect of Castellano while other dialects have been largely ignored.


 
Jgreco, I am really interested in this similarity between Brazilian Portuguese and the varieties of Caribbean Spanish dialects / accents you mentioned , can you give some examples?


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## Ayazid

avok said:


> Do you think that this may be an Italian influence? Because some Italians(southerners?) would pronounce "girare" somewhere between "djirare" and "*zh*irare". Hence the Argentinian "zh" and then "sh".



Actually, I am rather thinking about a possible Galician influence on Rioplatense Spanish (especially Argentina and Uruguay). There was a great influx of Galician immigrants in these countries during the 19th and 20th century. It might also explain some other features of this variety, such as the virtual inexistence of present perfect in colloquial language (this tense doesn´t exist in Galician or at least it´s not used in the same manner as in Castellano and some Galegos have allegedly problems to use it correctly when speaking Spanish).


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## MarX

Ayazid said:


> Actually, I am rather thinking about a possible Galician influence on Rioplatense Spanish (especially Argentina and Uruguay). There was a great influx of Galician immigrants in these countries during the 19th and 20th century. It might also explain some other features of this variety, such as the virtual inexistence of present perfect in colloquial language (this tense doesn´t exist in Galician or at least it´s not used in the same manner as in Castellano and some Galegos have allegedly problems to use it correctly when speaking Spanish).


You reminded me of another similarity between Brazilian and Rioplatense:
The lack of "haber + part participle" construction.
Well I've heard an Argentinian using it, but he was obviously exaggerating it. He practically replaced every simple past with passé composé. Well, perhaps he had a French background after all. 

So there are at least three parallels:
1. The "sh" sound
2. *Vos* and *você*
3. The use of simple past

They may be pure coincidence, but it's still interesting indeed.

Salam,


MarX


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## Nanon

Marx, the preferred use of pretérito indefinido (simple past) vs pretérito perfecto (haber + past participle) is widespread in other Latin American Countries, not only in Argentina...
Here goes a couple of related threads.


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## avok

Ayazid said:


> Actually, I am rather thinking about a possible Galician influence on Rioplatense Spanish (especially Argentina and Uruguay). There was a great influx of Galician immigrants in these countries during the 19th and 20th century. It might also explain some other features of this variety, such as the virtual inexistence of present perfect in colloquial language (this tense doesn´t exist in Galician or at least it´s not used in the same manner as in Castellano and some Galegos have allegedly problems to use it correctly when speaking Spanish).


 
Hmm. That's interesting. Actually the existence of "sh" (and partly "zh") makes Argentinian Spanish sound like Galician. For example the word "proyecto" is pronounced as "pro*sh*ecto" in Argentinian and "pro*j*e(c)to" with "zh" in Portuguese and "Pro*x*ecto" (as far as I know) in Galician. Galician "x : sh"


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## tom_in_bahia

JGreco said:


> LL and Y= [zh] is not just a Rio Platense pronunciation. It also occurs in some varieties of Caribbean Spanish dialects. In those dialects they also have nasalization of words that end in "N" and "L" and other features that occur or are in common with some features in Br. Portuguese. I always thought that was odd. There is also aspiration of the "s's" in those dialects too. The reason nobody knows of those features is because those dialects are hardly studied while Rio Platense is a very studied dialect of Castellano while other dialects have been largely ignored.



I think that we could consider the African connection here. Keep in mind that the great majority of African slaves passed through Brazil, where a Portuguese-West African pidgin began to emerge. These slaves ended up in the Caribbean and the US southern states. 

Pequeninho - Portuguese for little one
Pikny - Jamaican for child
Pickaninny - (disparaging) small black child

Bunda - West African Language for butt
Bunda - Brazilian Portuguese for butt
Bounda - Haitian Creole for butt
Booty - Black American English for butt

On the point of nasality, I think that in the US South, you can find a lot of examples (white and black speakers) who are much more nasal than other English dialects.


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## MarX

avok said:


> Hmm. That's interesting. Actually the existence of "sh" (and partly "zh") makes Argentinian Spanish sound like Galician. For example the word "proyecto" is pronounced as "pro*sh*ecto" in Argentinian and "pro*j*e(c)to" with "zh" in Portuguese and "Pro*x*ecto" (as far as I know) in Galician. Galician "x : sh"


You're right, Portuguese J and GE and GE are pronounced as X, XE, and XI in Galician.


tom_in_bahia said:


> Bunda - West African Language for butt
> Bunda - Brazilian Portuguese for butt
> Bounda - Haitian Creole for butt
> Booty - Black American English for butt


 In Indonesian, *Bunda* is a noble/poetic way to say "Mother"!!


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## JGreco

> I think that we could consider the African connection here. Keep in mind that the great majority of African slaves passed through Brazil, where a Portuguese-West African pidgin began to emerge. These slaves ended up in the Caribbean and the US southern states.
> 
> Pequeninho - Portuguese for little one
> Pikny - Jamaican for child
> Pickaninny - (disparaging) small black child
> 
> Bunda - West African Language for butt
> Bunda - Brazilian Portuguese for butt
> Bounda - Haitian Creole for butt
> Booty - Black American English for butt
> 
> On the point of nasality, I think that in the US South, you can find a lot of examples (white and black speakers) who are much more nasal than other English dialects.





Good point but there are some other influences. There was a good bit of immigration to the Caribbean Spanish countries by Canary Islanders also. That dialect of Spanish was greatly influenced by Galician, Portuguese, and Andalusian due to strong immigration from those  areas in previous centuries . Also, one of the areas that I am familiar with Panama had strong cultural influences from all over because of the Panama Canal and many of the merchant classes settling there eventually. The funny thing is some words where even taken from the original canal builders the French. For example, they don't say "sosten" (bra) in Panama they say "brasiel" which come from the French "brasier"  or the word "pas" (peas) which is not used in Panama, they would say "Pettit Pois" instead. There are several more examples. I've never understood why the influence of the canal on the society hasn't been studied. Sorry for the digression.


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## Chaska Ñawi

The only Argentine pronunciation I've heard of the double L and Y has been the "dz" version.  That said, most of my exposure to Argentine Spanish is to Bolivian-Argentines .... but in Bolivia, the double L is pronounced like a Y, even on the Brazilian border.

Ecuador shares this pronunciation with Argentina, which would also appear to cancel out the Brazilian theory in this case.

You could possibly make an argument for the use of "vos" being being reinforced across the Brazilian border.  I remember hearing it frequently from Venezuelans who had connections with Brazil, now that I think of it.


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## avok

Chaska by "dz", you mean French "j" or the English "j" ?


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## Nanon

Chaska Ñawi said:


> You could possibly make an argument for the use of "vos" being being reinforced across the Brazilian border.  I remember hearing it frequently from Venezuelans who had connections with Brazil, now that I think of it.



The use of "vos" in Venezuela is extremely frequent in the northwestern part of the country and mostly in Zulia, a state that borders on Colombia, not Brazil. You may have heard it from "maracuchos" (people from Maracaibo, the capital of Zulia) who had connections with Brazil, but locals who don't have these connections also "vosean".
BTW, verb endings differ from Argentinian "voseo": AR "vos sabés" vs VE "vos sabéis".


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## Ayazid

treulen said:


> I don't think it's due to a border effect. As a counterexample, some regions in Uruguay (Rocha and Treinta y Tres departaments) actually use "tu" insetad of "vos", and they are indeed next to the Brazil-Uruguay frontnier.
> I think the "voseo" came from those Spanish regions which used it centuries ago. But there's a lot of threads about that...



Indeed, and the same thing occurs on the Brazilian side of the border. In the neighbouring state Rio Grande do Sul not *você* but *tu* is the most used and prefered pronoun for the second person singular. So, the fact that in greater part of Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay *vos *has replaced *tu*, and likewise the fact that in greater of Brazil *tu* has been replaced by *você *are not a result of any mutual influence, but rather a similar development.


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## Chaska Ñawi

avok said:


> Chaska by "dz", you mean French "j" or the English "j" ?



I mean the French version.


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## Outsider

Then why did you write a "d"?


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## avok

Chaska Ñawi said:


> I mean the French version.


 
Hmm ok..


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## avok

avok said:


> Hmm. That's interesting. Actually the existence of "sh" (and partly "zh") makes Argentinian Spanish sound like Galician. For example the word "proyecto" is pronounced as "pro*sh*ecto" in Argentinian and "pro*j*e(c)to" with "zh" in Portuguese and "Pro*x*ecto" (as far as I know) in Galician. Galician "x : sh"


 
Hmmm, I need to add that from what I have read/heard so far, it seems to me that the southern Brazilian Portuguese -especially near the Argentinian/Uruguayan border-, the Argentinian Spanish and Gallician seem to be three dialects (or the accents ) of the same language


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## treulen

> Originally Posted by *avok*
> Hmm. That's interesting. Actually the existence of "sh" (and partly "zh") makes Argentinian Spanish sound like Galician. For example the word "proyecto" is pronounced as "pro*sh*ecto" in Argentinian and "pro*j*e(c)to" with "zh" in Portuguese and "Pro*x*ecto" (as far as I know) in Galician. Galician "x : sh"


Hmmm, I need to add that from what I have read/heard so far, it seems to me that the southern Brazilian Portuguese -especially near the Argentinian/Uruguayan border-, the Argentinian Spanish and Gallician seem to be three dialects (or the accents ) of the same language  

Ok, then add the English "project" and you will have the fourth dialect of that language.


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## avok

treulen said:


> Ok, then add the English "project" and you will have the fourth dialect of that language.


 
But English "project" is pronounced with a "dj" which is common in "other" Latin American Spanish accents. So, it can't be the fourth dialect but if you are looking for the fourth dialect, then I would suggest "Ladino" which has ""zh" and "sh" sounds like the Argentinian Spanish.


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## Montesacro

avok said:


> Do you think that this may be an Italian influence? Because some Italians(southerners?) would pronounce "girare" somewhere between "djirare" and "*zh*irare". Hence the Argentinian "zh" and then "sh".


 
Only Tuscans will pronounce "girare" with an initial "French j" sound (But not always: it depends on the phonetic context). It is indeed a very characteristic feature of their pronunciation.
Since the vast majority of Italians who moved to Argentina were not Tuscans I would safely exclude an Italian origin for the Argentinian sound "zh/sh".

The galician theory works far better.


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## Outsider

Galician lost the sound "zh" around the time of the Renaissance.


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## avok

Outsider said:


> Galician lost the sound "zh" around the time of the Renaissance.


 
All "zh" sounds were replaced by "sh"? 

Or "zh" became "sh", "sh" became "ch"?


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## MarX

avok said:


> All "zh" sounds were replaced by "sh"?
> 
> Or "zh" became "sh", "sh" became "ch"?


I believe /zh/ became /sh/, but /sh/ didn't become /ch/. It's rather the other way around in Portuguese: /ch/ became /sh/. Something that also happened in French and in some Spanish dialects.


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## avok

So, /sh/ replaced /zh/, and /ch/ never became /sh/ ...


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## Alandria

tom_in_bahia said:


> Example: a gente is pronounced /a he~tSi/ instead of /a Ze~tSi/ (where tS=chair and Z=pleasure). I noticed this pronunciation in northwestern Brazil, especially by rural populations, but nothing leads me to believe that Spanish gente /hente/ had an impact on this change, as several Brazilians have suggested. In reality, S (sh)/Z (zh)/h/X (H) are all related sounds, so a long time ago, when gente was pronounced /Sente/ or /Zente/ in Spanish (not sure which), the sounds went through shifts that gave us the /hente/ of today's Spanish. The /he~tSi/ of rural northwestern Brazil, is not likely related to Spanish directly, but rather related in the fact that the sound shift is a logical possibility given the sound ranges of the human mouth.



Hi, Tom_in_bahia!
You mean the North*E*astern accent, not northwestern accent.


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## la zarzamora

avok said:


> Actually, Sokol, Argentinians pronounce this "ll" like *"sh",* just like the Brazilians pronounce "ch" as "sh" so as I explained before :
> 
> Argentinians (unlike other Spanish speaking peoples) pronounce "llamo" as "*sh*amo" and Brazilians pronounce "chamo" as "*sh*amo" that's what I found interesting.
> The "dj" you mentioned is quite common among Spanish speakers but, that's not what I asked about.


 

"Shamo" will be the pronunciation in Buenos Aires, with the exception of the upper classes (either because of family tradition or because money made them attend the "right" schools) who use the "dj" sound. In the other provinces is widely used "iamo".

And maybe there is a similarity between Portuguese from Portugal and Spanish from Argentina because we had a large quantity of immigrants from Galicia, which is next to Portugal.


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## avok

la zarzamora said:


> "shamo" will be the pronunciation in buenos aires, with the exception of the upper classes (either because of family tradition or because money made them attend the "right" schools) who use the "dj" sound. in the other provinces is widely used "iamo".


 

The upper classes have "dj" or "French j" ? (I have the impression that they have the French j rather than "dj")

I listen to Mercedes Sosa (an Argentinian) and she pronounces the sound somewhere between "zh" and "y".

I think, we can say, rather than the Portuguese accent, there may be some similarity between the Argentinian Spanish and Galician language.

Did Galician speakers immigrate in large numbers in "Buenos Aires" Region?


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## ronanpoirier

Do Spanish speakers realise the difference between "English J" [dzh] and "French J" [zh]?
They seem to be confounding both sounds in this thread...


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## MarX

tom_in_bahia said:


> Example: a gente is pronounced /a he~tSi/ instead of /a Ze~tSi/ (where tS=chair and Z=pleasure). I noticed this pronunciation in northwestern Brazil, especially by rural populations, but nothing leads me to believe that Spanish gente /hente/ had an impact on this change, as several Brazilians have suggested. In reality, S (sh)/Z (zh)/h/X (H) are all related sounds, so a long time ago, when gente was pronounced /Sente/ or /Zente/ in Spanish (not sure which), the sounds went through shifts that gave us the /hente/ of today's Spanish. The /he~tSi/ of rural northwestern Brazil, is not likely related to Spanish directly, but rather related in the fact that the sound shift is a logical possibility given the sound ranges of the human mouth.


That's interesting indeed.
The sound shift in Spanish, at least in the case of the word *gente*, was:
/zhente/ => /shente/ => /khente/
In many varieties /khente/ evolved further to /çente/ or /hente/ (ç = the _ch_ sound in the German word *ich*)

Salam,


MarX


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## la zarzamora

avok said:


> The upper classes have "dj" or "French j" ? (I have the impression that they have the French j rather than "dj")
> 
> I listen to Mercedes Sosa (an Argentinian) and she pronounces the sound somewhere between "zh" and "y".
> 
> I think, we can say, rather than the Portuguese accent, there may be some similarity between the Argentinian Spanish and Galician language.
> 
> Did Galician speakers immigrate in large numbers in "Buenos Aires" Region?


 
It is "dj" (as in George). I do not know the French sound you are talking about.
Mercedes Sosa is a native - no European ancestry - from the province of Tucuman. People in the provinces have their own accents, specially natives.

Of course there are some similarities between Argentinean Spanish and Galician (I do not know if it is written like this) language. They are very similar. Galician is not like, for example, Basque which is a completely different language. 
I mentioned Galician as a link of sorts between Spanish and Portuguese. Probably because they are geographically close to each other.


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## la zarzamora

Yes, many Galician immigrants came to Argentina, but they did not keep their language through the generations. You will probably not find many -if any- young people who speaks the language (and, by the way, I do not think it is a language I think it is a dialect). Although there are many and large clubs or associations that group people of Galician descent.


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## JGreco

> Do Spanish speakers realise the difference between "English J" [dzh] and "French J" [zh]?
> They seem to be confounding both sounds in this thread...



Those two sounds tend to be confused in Latin American Spanish especially in Caribbean and Rio Platense Varieties. I've heard words such as "lluvia" pronounced Zhu-via or Dju-via in the same conversation. There is definitely no distinction.


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## avok

la zarzamora said:


> It is "dj" (as in George). I do not know the French sound you are talking about.
> Mercedes Sosa is a native - no European ancestry - from the province of Tucuman. People in the provinces have their own accents, specially natives.


 
That's true! Mercedes Sosa has a distinctive accent. She especially pronounces the "rr" sounds and initial "r" s very differently than typical Spanish speakers.



ronanpoirier said:


> Do Spanish speakers realise the difference between "English J" [dzh] and "French J" [zh]?
> They seem to be confounding both sounds in this thread...


 
I have the same impression too! I can even go further and say that (most of the) Spanish speakers do not realize the difference among  "dj", "zh" and "sh". Then, how come they - the other Spanish speakers- understand that the speaker is Argentinian ??


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## Hulalessar

avok said:


> I can even go further and say that (most of the) Spanish speakers do not realize the difference among "dj", "zh" and "sh".


 
If the sounds do not have phonemic value, i.e. do not serve to distinguish one word from another, they may not be perceived to be distinct. 



avok said:


> Then, how come they - the other Spanish speakers- understand that the speaker is Argentinian ??


 
The precise articulation still registers sufficiently for a difference to be noticed.

It is a bit like the (Standard) English /l/. The sounds at the beginning and end of the word _lull_ are articulated differently, but are not perceived to be different by native English speakers. In Russian, however, the two sounds are distinct phonemes - _ugol_ = corner and _ugol'_ = coal. One of the clues that enables English speakers to detect a Russian accent is the use of the "dark" /l/ in the wrong positions.



avok said:


> I listen to Mercedes Sosa (an Argentinian) and she pronounces the sound somewhere between "zh" and "y".


 
I think the word _between_ is the important one there. The sounds we are talking about are not necessarily articulations which have exact equivalents in Standard English or French. That is why one listener may hear a sound as /zh/ and another as /dzh/.


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## avok

Hulalessar said:


> I think the word _between_ is the important one there. The sounds we are talking about are not necessarily articulations which have exact equivalents in Standard English or French. That is why one listener may hear a sound as /zh/ and another as /dzh/.


 
Yes, but that's only the case for Mercedes Sosa which has a different accent than the typical Argentinian accent from Buenos Aires. One listener may hear a sound as "zh" and another as "dj" and another as "y" when "Mercedes Sosa" speaks. But when some other Argentinian from Buenos Aires speaks, as explained above, the listener seems to hear the sound "sh".


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## JGreco

Just like I said above Castellano speakers tend to confuse those particular sounds when they listen to someone speak. Even I tend to confuse certain sounds. As an example, when I watch and hear the particular accents from TVE during the news reports I seem always to be able to tell if the person is from Northern Spain by the way they pronounce the "s" sound. To me it kind of sounds like in between a "sh" and a "s" sound.  Someone else might not hear that but I certainly due and I am usually right 95% when I encounter someone from Northern Spain that I encounter in my community. They usually look at me with surprise and ask me "how did you know?" Sorry if I went off topic.


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## aleCcowaN

Portugal and all its colonies, including Brazil, were a part of the Spanish Empire from 1580 to 1641. The second (and permanent) settlement of Buenos Aires was established in 1580 and the settlers came from Asunción, now capital of Paraguay. By 1640, Buenos Aires, the only city of the area, had about 6.000 inhabitants, gathering maybe 30% of population of an area about the size of Spain and France together (excluding about 50.000/70.000 indigenous people who lived within their ancient cultures in the same area). That population was very heterogeneous: creole whose great great great grand parents were German, Swiss, Greek and Sicilian mercenaries and native women from Paraguay; even Mr. De Mitre, the descendant of a merchant from Constantinople named Demetrios who fled to Venice in 1453, who became ancestor of President Mitre, whose image is today in Argentine 2$ bank notes; but one fourth to one third of Buenos Aires population were Portuguese and their spring.

During the XVIII century, the Spanish power with centre in Buenos Aires and Asunción, and the Portuguese power with centre in São Paulo and Santa Catarina Island frequently fought for the dominion of what is known today as Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul and Entre Ríos. There were many people living in the vast emptiness of those provinces, a mix of native, Spanish, Portuguese and African blood, who became known as "gauchos" and made their living from smuggling goods from Netherlands, England, France and Portugal through Brazil. In 1739, Buenos Aires became a port which can commerce directly with Spain and a few dozen of American ports, and commerce (and smuggling) became much more active, and new immigrants came, mainly from Spain and Southern South America, including Brazil.

Summarizing: An heterogeneous group of European, mainly but not exclusively Spaniards, were mixed with aboriginal people and became the core population of River Plate area and its language. 150 years later, more European arrived, African slaves were traded and internal migrations started (some hundreds or a few thousands of any regional or ethnic group, but with great impact owing the lack of population). In the meantime, Portuguese influence was important, swinging from brothers to enemies, from enemies to friends and so on.

The particular "yeismo" and other features of River Plate Spanish came from both the origin of the Spanish people who came here, and what the local families of aboriginal languages could pronounce. The in-migrants were mainly men, and most of the mothers were firstly indigenous, later mostly creole. What this women pronounced became the seed of our accent.

There's a very important influence of Brazilian Portuguese in River Plate Spanish vocabulary, be it colloquial or slang. I don't think there was much  influence in pronunciation or grammar.


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## WAMORZINHO

Here in Brasil we learn that we need to be look out about the words that we say in english and spanish:
in portuguese the glasses, we call _copos_, but in spanish it's _vasos_, nevertheless _vasos_ in portuguese means *pot*!So we need to look out when we need to ask a glass of water in argentina, because maybe we can get a pot and a lot of water!


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## JGreco

> Here in Brasil we learn that we need to be look out about the words that we say in english and spanish:
> in portuguese the glasses, we call _copos_, but in spanish it's _vasos_, nevertheless _vasos_ in portuguese means *pot*!So we need to look out when we need to ask a glass of water in argentina, because maybe we can get a pot and a lot of water!


No not necessarily you could say vaso or copa (copo sounds very close to copa) and they would understand you mean glass. The word for pot is actually Olla (pronounced something like "osha" or "ozha" in Argentina). It is more the other way around in that aspect. An Argentinian would say vaso but after the confusion would also say "copa" since it is the other word for glass so there is still variation in that aspect. Confusion would be with such words as "escova" in Portuguese which is "hairbrush" but would mean "broom" to an Argentinian (cepillo  is hairbrush in spanish) or "vassoura" which means "broom" in portuguese but means "garbage" to an Argentinian (escoba is broom in Spanish) jajaja those ones really make me laugh.


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## WAMORZINHO

I never vistit Argentina, so I learned the _Heterossemanticos_ in the school.
I know that if you say Esquisita in spanish means that the food is yummy. But here in Brasil means freak.


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## JGreco

> I never vistit Argentina, so I learned the _Heterossemanticos_ in the school.
> I know that if you say Esquisita in spanish means that the food is yummy. But here in Brasil means freak.


To me "Esquisita" in Spanish has a similar meaning and cognate to the English and French words "Exquisite" which in Spanish, English, and French could refer to food or anything that is deemed "exotic", "beautiful", "delicious".


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## Nanon

JGreco said:


> Confusion would be with such words as "escova" in Portuguese which is "hairbrush" but would mean "broom" to an Argentinian (cepillo is hairbrush in spanish) or "vassoura" which means "broom" in portuguese but means "garbage" to an Argentinian (escoba is broom in Spanish) jajaja those ones really make me laugh.


 
Well, some confusions here are not specifically related to _Argentinian Spanish_.
But this brush thing is funny, so I couldn't resist...
A ver: ¿qué opinan de _"fazer escova para desembaraçar os cabelos"?_ Nothing wrong in Portuguese. But interpreted in a Spanish, not Portuguese, way, hairs are pregnant (!) and you use a broom to struggle against that fact (!!)


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## JGreco

> Well, some confusions here are not specifically related to _Argentinian Spanish_.
> But this brush thing is funny, so I couldn't resist...
> A ver: ¿qué opinan de _"fazer escova para desembaraçar os cabelos"?_ Nothing wrong in Portuguese. But interpreted in a Spanish, not Portuguese, way, hairs are pregnant (!) and you use a broom to struggle against that fact (!!)




Jajajajajajajajajaja...............jaaaa....


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## chamirkf

In Buenos Aires they pronopunce with "sh" and other few provinces too. But here in Cordoba and in other provinces its pronounced like an "i" almost. I mean Llegar = iegar, and also some people pronounce the "r" with something like a mixed r and s sound.


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## sokol

chamirkf said:


> In Buenos Aires they pronopunce with "sh" and other few provinces too. But here in Cordoba and in other provinces its pronounced like an "i" almost. I mean Llegar = iegar, and also some people pronounce the "r" with something like a mixed r and s sound.


This is not specifically Argentinian, it's a well-known and very widespread feature known as yeísmo; only the pronunciation of it in Argentine possibly could be related to Brazilian influence - but even that is doubtful. (See also the controversial discussion above.  It is quite a long thread, but if you're interested it is worth reading.)


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