# to battle, fight



## ThomasK

Do you have different words for these? Is one mainly figurative, the other more literal? And: can you F/B (against) mice? Can you F/B repression? Can you F/B (for) rights? Etc.  I am also interested in whether the figurative use is still very common.

Dutch has vechten and (be-)strijden:
- *vechten* (tegen, voor - against, for); mostly literally but we might say that _Don Quichotte vocht tegen windmolens_ but then that was mainly literal
- *strijden*: mostly figurative, though _*bestrijden*_ is even more figurative (muizen bestrijden, onrecht [injustice] bestrijden). If we strijden tegen X, it reminds us more of fights
- *kampen *(met - with) : is an old verb for fighting, but mainly used fig. in the sense of facing (_we kampen met problemen_ - which might perhaps also be interpreted as some kind of wrestling with, but only fig.)
I think _strijden_ is not so often in political contexts, perhaps because it sounds too heroic, and *bestrijden* might seem too technical.


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## Nawaq

Salut Thomas,


*French:
*
_Se battre_, _combattre_, _lutter... _others but I don't know really (yes I am confused right now ).

_Se battre_ in a figurative way simply mean "to argue, have a dispute" (which is not the way it's more used in I think), more literaly, it mean, well, fight, body-to-body or not _"se battre contre la maladie"_, _"se battre avec soi-même"_, _"se battre pour les droits humains"_, etc. I am trying to think in which way one word could be used over another but I can't seem to find anything, I am really too tired right now, sorry. Some examples with _combattre_ and _lutter _so I have the impression I am actually contributing to this thread_,_ _"lutter pour le droit des femmes_ (used like in _se battre_)", _"lutter contre le stress_ (you could use _combattre_ here too _"combattre le stress"_, _lutte_ is also the French word for wrestling), _"combattre ses ennemis (à cheval _or not_)"_, _"cela fait maintenant quatre heures que ces gladiateurs combattent..."_. I wanted to say something important but I forgot.
_
Se battre contre la répression, combattre la répression, lutter contre la répression.
Se battre, lutter pour les droits humains, _there is a film titled _"Combattre pour nos droits"_, so it must be possible with _combattre_ too but it sound weird (to me), what do I know.

I don't know what you mean with mice though, sadly.


Hopefully other francophones will come and correct me.


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## Medune

Portuguese:
*Batalhar*: Battle. Usually a battle between armed forces, but it can also have a metaphorical meaning.
*Brigar:* To argue, dispute. A couple can also "brigar" and take a break to their relationship or even break up
*Combater*: Combat. Implies an unbalance of forces or a dichotomy of _right_ and _wrong_ sides. A repressive government alleges that it combats revolutionaries; Brazilian government, the _Aedes aegypti. _
*Confrontar*: Confront, stand up against. The revolutionaries, on the other hand, may confront the repressive government.
*Contender: *Contend, vie, rivalize.
*Guerrear: *Also between armed forces. However, differently from _batalhar,_ it refers to a long term fight, a war (guerra).
*Lutar*: Fight, struggle. No embedded meaning, can be both literal and metaphorical.
*Pelejar*: It formerly referred to a knight fighting with a sword; nowadays it refers to have a quarrel, an argument,
_
A MICE
batalha-se, peleja-se contra os ratos. (against) Kind of comical nuance.
Combatem-se os ratos. 

FOR ONE'S RIGHTS:
Luta-se por seus direitos. (for) 
Guerreia-se por seus direitos. Implies getting into a war.

REPRESSION:
Batalha-se, luta-se contra a repressão (against)
combate-se e confronta-se a repressão. (no preposition)_


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## Sardokan1.0

*Sardinian :*

*Battagliare : *To Stand, to suffer someone
*Brigare :* To argue, dispute, but also "reprimand, scold"
*Cumbattere :* to fight
*Cunfrontare, Parare Fronte :* Confront, stand up against
*Cunténdere : *To Contend, To dispute
*Gherrare :* To make war
*Luttare : *To fight, struggle
*Peleàre : *To fight, struggle, to quarrel
*
examples :*

*Battagliare : *Hoe sos pizzinnos no si podìan battagliare -> Today I couldn't stand the children
*Brigare (1) : *Sos pizzinnos sun brighende -> The children are arguing
*Brigare (2) : *Happo brigadu sos pizzinnos -> I reprimanded the children
*Cumbattere : *Sos soldados sun andende a cumbattere -> The soldiers are going to fight
*Cunfrontare : *Sos politicos si sun cunfrontados in s'aula de su guvernu -> The politicians confronted themselves in the hall of government
*Parare Fronte : *Sos soldados han paradu fronte a sos inimigos -> The soldiers stood up against the enemies
*Cunténdere : *Sos parentes s'han cuntesu s'heredidade de su mortu -> The relatives disputed about the dead's heritage
*Gherrare : *Sos esercitos sun andende a gherrare -> The armies are going to make war
*Luttare : *Semus luttende pro sos dirittos nostros -> We are struggling for our rights
*Peleàre : *Cussos duos sun peleénde dae annos pro macchìnes -> Those two are quarreling for years for stupid things


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## apmoy70

Greek:

To fight: *«Μάχομαι»* [ˈmaxome] < Classical deponent v. *«μάχομαι» mắkʰŏmai̯* (with obscure etymology, the root «μαχ-» may well be Pre-Greek).
Fight: *«Μάχη»* [ˈmaçi] (fem.) < Classical deverbal fem. noun *«μάχη» mắkʰē* (Doric *«μάχᾱ» mắkʰā*) < Classical v. *«μάχομαι» mắkʰŏmai̯* (see above)

To battle: *«Καταπολεμώ»* [katapoleˈmo] & uncontracted *«καταπολεμάω»* [katapoleˈma.o] < Classical v. *«καταπολεμέω/καταπολεμῶ» kătăpŏlĕméō* (uncontracted)/*kătăpŏlĕmô* (contracted) --> _to exhaust by war, war down_ < compound; Classical prefix, preposition, and adverb *«κατά» katá*, and *«κάτα» kátă* --> _downwards, against, along, through, over, across, concerning_ (PIE *km̥t- _down, with, along_ cf Hitt. -katta (postpos.), _along, with_) + Classical v. *«πολεμέω/πολεμῶ» pŏlĕméō* (uncontracted)/*pŏlĕmô* (contracted) (see below).
Battle: *«Μάχη»* [ˈmaçi] (fem.) (see above).

To fight a war: *«Πολεμώ»* [poleˈmo] & uncontracted *«πολεμάω»* [poleˈma.o] < Classical v. *«πολεμέω/πολεμῶ» pŏlĕméō* (uncontracted)/*pŏlĕmô* --> _to battle, fight a war_.
War: *«Πόλεμος»* [ˈpolemos] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«πόλεμος» pólĕmŏs*, earlier form *«πτόλεμος» ptólĕmŏs*, Mycenaean syllabary po-to-re-mo.
For Beekes, the word has obscure etymology.
Personally I find the resemblance of «πόλεμος»/«πτόλεμος» to «πόλις»/«πτόλις» (the latter Thessalian, Arcadocyprian) intriguing (perhaps polemos is the collective action undertaken by the polis? pure speculation on my behalf).

To contend: *«Ανταγωνίζομαι»* [andaɣoˈnizome] < Classical deponent v. *«ἀνταγωνίζομαι» ăntăgōnízŏmai̯* --> _to fight against, struggle against, act in rivalry with_ < compound; Classical prefix, and preposition *«ἀντί» ăntí* --> _opposite, over against, instead of_ (PIE *h₂ent- _front, face_ cf Skt. अन्ति (ánti), _in the presence of, facing_, Lat. ante > It. avanti, Sp./Por. ante, Fr. avant, Rom. înainte) & Classical deponent denominative v. *«ἀγωνίζομαι» ăgōnízŏmai̯* < Classical 3rd declension masc. noun *«ἀγών» ăgṓn* (nom. sing.), *«ἀγῶνος» ăgônŏs* (gen. sing.) --> _gathering, rally (to see games)_, later _the game/contest itself_ (PIE *h₂eǵ- _to drive, lead_ cf Skt. अजति (ajati), _to drive, propel_, Gr. «ἄγω» (ắgō), _to drive, lead, bring, carry, draw_, Lat. agere > It. agire, Fr./Sp./Por. agir).

To confront: *«Αντιμετωπίζω»* [andimetoˈpizo] < Byz.Gr. denominative v. *«ἀντιμετωπῶ» antimetopô* (idem) < Classical nominal *«ἀντιμέτωπος» ăntĭmétōpŏs* < compound; Classical prefix, and preposition *«ἀντί» ăntí* (see above) + Classical neut. noun *«μέτωπον» métōpŏn* (= prefix, preposition, and adv. *«μέτα» métă* or *«μετά» mĕtắ* --> _in the midst, afterwards, between, with, after_ (PIE *meth₂- _in the midst, between, after_ cf Skt. स्मत (smat), _together, at the same time_, Proto-Germanic *midi > Ger. mit, Isl. með, Dt. met/mede, D./Nor./Swe. med) + Classical noun *«ὤψ» ṓp͡s* (with disputed gender) --> _eye, face, countenance_ (PIE *h₃ekʷ- _to see_ cf Skt. ईक्षते (īkṣate), _to look, observe_)).

To struggle: *«Παλεύω»* [paˈlevo] & (learned) *«παλαίω»* [paˈle.o] < Classical v. *«παλαίω» pălaí̯ō* --> _to wrestle, survive a wrestling match, struggle_ (with obscure etymology).
Struggle: *«Πάλη»* [ˈpali] (fem.) < Classical fem. noun *«πάλη» pắlē* --> _wrestling, struggle_ (with obscure etymology).

To quarrel:
(1) *«Φιλονικώ»* [filoniˈko] < Classical v. *«φιλονικέω/φιλονικῶ» pʰĭlŏnĭkéō* (uncontracted)/*pʰĭlŏnikô* (contracted) --> lit. _to be fond of victory_, later _to be contentious, pugnacious, combative_ < compound; combinatory *«φιλο-» pʰilŏ-* of Classical nominal *«φίλος» pʰílŏs* --> _friendly, friend, dear_ (with obscure etymology) + Classical fem. noun *«νίκη» nī́kē* --> _victory, upper hand in a battle/contest/struggle/quarrel_ (with obscure etymology).
Quarrel: *«Φιλονικία»* [filoniˈci.a] (fem.).
(2) Denominative *«καβγαδίζω»* [kavɣaˈðizo] (colloq.) < masc. noun *«καβγάς»* [kavˈɣas] (colloq.) --> _quarrel_ < Tur. kavga < Ottoman Turkish غوغا ‎(ğavğa) --> _brawl, quarrel_.


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## ThomasK

Some extra Q:


Nawaq said:


> *French:*
> (1) not _"se battre contre la maladie"_, _"se battre avec soi-même"_, _"se battre pour les droits humains"_, etc.
> _
> (2) "lutter pour le droit des femmes_ (used like in _se battre_)", _"lutter contre le stress", "lutter contre la répression.lutter pour les droits humains,_
> (you could use _combattre_ here too _"combattre le stress"_, _lutte_ is also the French word for wrestling),
> _"combattre ses ennemis (à cheval _or not_)"_, _"cela fait maintenant quatre heures que ces gladiateurs combattent..."_. _Se battre contre la répression, combattre la répression,  Se battre,  _there is a film titled _"Combattre pour nos droits"_, so it must be possible with _combattre_ too but it sound weird (to me), what do I know.
> 
> (3)I don't know what you mean with mice though, sadly: DES SOURIS .


As for (1): did you mean to suggest that those don't work?
As for (2): your _combattre (X) _and _se battre (contre/pour X?)_ might correspond with _bestrijden_ and _strijden tegen_ --- could it be that _se battre_ takes more energy, is fiercer? _Combattre_ is perhaps more often used in a fig. sense than _se battre_?
As for (3): mice is the plural of mouse, une souris! ;--)

@[B]all[/B]* the others: so surprised by the long lists of verbs!* I'll try to have a closer look at them soon. Thanks a lot!


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## ThomasK

Medune said:


> Portuguese:
> *Batalhar*: Battle. Usually a battle between armed forces, but it can also have a metaphorical meaning.
> *Combater*: Combat. Implies an unbalance of forces or a dichotomy of _right_ and _wrong_ sides. A repressive government alleges that it combats revolutionaries;
> *Guerrear: *Also between armed forces. However, differently from _batalhar,_ it refers to a long term fight, a war (guerra).
> *Lutar*: Fight, struggle. No embedded meaning, can be both literal and metaphorical.
> *Pelejar*: It formerly referred to a knight fighting with a sword; nowadays it refers to have a quarrel, an argument,Brazilian government, the _Aedes aegypti. _
> *
> Confrontar*: Confront, stand up against. The revolutionaries, on the other hand, may confront the repressive government.
> *Brigar:* To argue, dispute. A couple can also "brigar" and take a break to their relationship or even break up
> *Contender: *Contend, vie, rivalize.
> 
> _
> A MICE
> batalha-se, peleja-se contra os ratos. (against) Kind of comical nuance.
> Combatem-se os ratos.
> 
> FOR ONE'S RIGHTS:
> Luta-se por seus direitos. (for)
> Guerreia-se por seus direitos. Implies getting into a war.
> 
> REPRESSION:
> Batalha-se, luta-se contra a repressão (against)
> combate-se e confronta-se a repressão. (no preposition)_


Some questions:
- would you agree that *the first 5* (in my categorisation above) remind more of real fighting than the last two?
- could it be that _combatar_ is way less literal than _batalhar, pelejar_?

*Sardinian* : could there be something similar about your words?


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## ThomasK

Just some notes and questions in lilac :


apmoy70 said:


> Greek:
> 
> To fight: *«Μάχομαι»* [ˈmaxome] - Could you imagine any link with words in other Europeas languages? (Not _machine_, I guess)
> 
> To battle: *«Καταπολεμώ»* [katapoleˈmo] & uncontracted *«καταπολεμάω»* [katapoleˈma.o] This is the word we know best: polemics, polemology, etc.
> 
> Personally I find the resemblance of «πόλεμος»/«πτόλεμος» to «πόλις»/«πτόλις» (the latter Thessalian, Arcadocyprian) intriguing (perhaps polemos is the collective action undertaken by the polis? pure speculation on my behalf). - Not "un-interesting" !
> 
> To struggle: *«Παλεύω»* [paˈlevo] & (learned) *«παλαίω»* [paˈle.o] < Classical v. *«παλαίω» pălaí̯ō* --> _to wrestle, survive a wrestling match, struggle_ (with obscure etymology).- No link with /polemos/?
> 
> To confront: *«Αντιμετωπίζω»* [andimetoˈpizo] - I suppose this is really, about literally facing
> 
> To quarrel:
> (1) *«Φιλονικώ»* [filoniˈko] - at first sight this is like a euphemism (avoiding the word 'war' or 'fight'). Could that be true?


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## Sardokan1.0

ThomasK said:


> Some questions:
> - would you agree that *the first 5* (in my categorisation above) remind more of real fighting than the last two?
> - could it be that _combatar_ is way less literal than _batalhar, pelejar_?
> 
> *Sardinian* : could there be something similar about your words?



Every verb mentioned has a similar meaning, but they are quite specific for certain situations and don't fit in others


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## Medune

ThomasK said:


> Some questions:
> - would you agree that *the first 5* (in my categorisation above) remind more of real fighting than the last two?
> - could it be that _combatar_ is way less literal than _batalhar, pelejar_?


I would relocate pelejar to the metaphorical group, since its most common meaning is that of quarrelling or arguing. However, It's very difficult to concoct a list in order of literality. For instance, to me, _combater_ stands on the same level of literality as  _batalhar_ and _pelejar:_ _batalhou contra o câncer (fought against cancer). _ Lutar, on its turn, can almost ubiquitously replace the others: _lutou contra o câncer. _The only rating I can assert with certainty is that the most literal one is _guerrear_.


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## Nawaq

ThomasK said:


> Some extra Q:
> 
> As for (1): did you mean to suggest that those don't work?
> As for (2): your _combattre (X) _and _se battre (contre/pour X?)_ might correspond with _bestrijden_ and _strijden tegen_ --- could it be that _se battre_ takes more energy, is fiercer? _Combattre_ is perhaps more often used in a fig. sense than _se battre_?
> As for (3): mice is the plural of mouse, une souris! ;--)



*1)*, no no sorry, these works, don't know what happened... I missed a , maybe. The "or not" was linked to body-to-body, not with the next words. Sorry for the confusion. If it's still not clear, just tell me. (I think I can say it here, I am dyslexic, so sometimes, I don't make much sense ).
*2)*, _se battre contre_ and _pour_, both works, TBH, I don't know if one is "fiercer" than the other, the only thing I can say is I think _se battre_ is more often used, so maybe yes, it's more "energetic". I'm really not helping you right ?  Wait for other francophones, they'll correct me if need be and they'll elaborate more.
*3)*, lol yes the mice part I got it don't worry  my confusion was based on the fact that I didn't know what these mice were doing here; we definitely don't fight mice in French... (took me long enough to answer that simple question).


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## ThomasK

@Nawaq: don't worry, I thought so.
(2) That is my point: it might imply more "energy".
(3) you do fight rats, don't you? ;-) But you mean: it would be quite funny to say that you are "en train de combater les souris". I understand. If we were to say that we were _strijden tegen_ mice, we'd have the same problem because mice are a ridiculously small problem. But _*bestrijdingsmiddelen *_("means to combat/...) is the only word we have for tools and poison (...) to "fight mice"!

@sardokan: I understand. My point was only that I for example would not spontaneously associate quarelling with fighting, whereas it might end up in a fight, for sure. 


Medune said:


> I would relocate pelejar to the metaphorical group, since its most common meaning is that of quarrelling or arguing. However, It's very difficult to concoct a list in order of literality. For instance, to me, _combater_ stands on the same level of literality as  _batalhar_ and _pelejar:_ _batalhou contra o câncer (fought against cancer). _ Lutar, on its turn, can almost ubiquitously replace the others: _lutou contra o câncer. _The only rating I can assert with certainty is that the most literal one is _guerrear_.


I see, I quite understand, was just trying!


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## Nawaq

ThomasK said:


> @Nawaq: don't worry, I thought so.
> (2) That is my point: it might imply more "energy".
> (3) you do fight rats, don't you? ;-) But you mean: it would be quite funny to say that you are "en train de combater les souris". I understand. If we were to say that we were _strijden tegen_ mice, we'd have the same problem because mice are a ridiculously small problem. But _*bestrijdingsmiddelen *_("means to combat/...) is the only word we have for tools and poison (...) to "fight mice"!



I think in French we'd use the verb _"se débarrasser" _which has nothing to do with fight, but like I've just seen, you can also _"lutter contre les rats (et autres trucs et animaux que tu veux hors de chez toi)"_... well then.


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## ThomasK

Great but do you have general names for insecticides, herbicides? We call them _bestrijdingsmiddelen_ or even _beschermingsmiddelen_ (protective means, lit.), but that is a euphemism of course...


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## Nawaq

The only words I know are the ones you listed, insecticides, herbicides, there is something to kill rats and mice, that is called _"mort aux rats"_, that is also used like poison, but I don't know of anything else.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Greek:
> 
> To fight: *«Μάχομαι»* [ˈmaxome] - Could you imagine any link with words in other Europeas languages? (Not _machine_, I guess)


Actually some philologists see a link with *«μηχανή» mēkʰanḗ* (fem., _machine_), or *«μῆχος» mêkʰŏs* (neut., _remedy_), even *«μάχαιρᾱ» mắkʰai̯rā* (fem., _large knife_) but Beekes calls it improlable.


ThomasK said:


> To struggle: *«Παλεύω»* [paˈlevo] & (learned) *«παλαίω»* [paˈle.o] < Classical v. *«παλαίω» pălaí̯ō* --> _to wrestle, survive a wrestling match, struggle_ (with obscure etymology).- No link with /polemos/?


Again some see a link with *«πλήσσω» plḗssō* (verb, _to strike_, cognate with the Lat. plangere/plectere, and the Dutch vloeken) but it's unprovable and theoretical.


ThomasK said:


> To confront: *«Αντιμετωπίζω»* [andimetoˈpizo] - I suppose this is really, about literally facing


Exactly.


ThomasK said:


> To quarrel:
> (1) *«Φιλονικώ»* [filoniˈko] - at first sight this is like a euphemism (avoiding the word 'war' or 'fight'). Could that be true?


It's one of those weird Greek words that are ambiguous and open to dual interpretation: in good sense it means _to be fond of victory, be eager to emulate good_, in bad sense _to be contentious, pugnacious, combative, to engage in rivalry, be so obstinate as to choose the worst option_.


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## ger4

The two most basic verbs corresponding to 'fight' and 'battle' are:
- _(sich) streiten_ - to fight, to quarrel, to argue 
- _kämpfen_ - to fight, to combat, to struggle

The verb _streiten_ tends to refer to verbal fights, _kämpfen_ is more physical. Some derivations reflect this difference.

- _(etwas) bestreiten_ - to deny something
- _(etwas) abstreiten_ - to dispute (something) 
- _unbestritten_ - undisputed
- _streitsüchtig_ - quarrelsome
- _strittig_ - at issue (_der strittige Punkt_ - the point at issue)
- _unbestreitbar_ - undeniable
- _Streitfrage_ - point of controversy, issue
- _Streitigkeiten_ (normally in the plural) - differences, squabbles
- _Streitpunkt _- matter in dispute

- _Streitkräfte_ (plural) - armed forces

- _bekämpfen_ - to fight (against) something (transitive)
- _sich bekämpfen_ - to fight each other
- _sich etwas erkämpfen_ - to achieve something by fighting for it
- _kämpferisch _- combative
- _Kämpfer_ - fighter
- _Kampfzone_ - combat zone


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## ThomasK

_[I would like to invite every contributor to answer these two questions as well, if possible...]_
How about having to deal with problems (Dutch: _kampen me_t), facing problems?

BTW: do you hear political parties used these fighting words in recent years? _(I am not referrring to terror, just in general: do you hear political parties using these fighting/ struggling metaphors when referring to their specific causes?° _


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## Medune

ThomasK said:


> _[I would like to invite every contributor to answer these two questions as well, if possible...]_
> How about having to deal with problems (Dutch: _kampen me_t), facing problems?
> 
> BTW: do you hear political parties used these fighting words in recent years? _(I am not referrring to terror, just in general: do you hear political parties using these fighting/ struggling metaphors when referring to their specific causes?° _


encarar   (en + face + ar, prefix derived from latin in-, face, verbal termination)
enfrentar/ afrentar(archaic)(en+ frente + ar, prefix derived from latin in-, front, from latin froons, verbal termination)
confrontar (prefix derived from latin com-, with, front,verbal termination)
arrostar
The differences are: 

Encarar can also be used as literally _face; ansehen in German,_ and has a more active nuance.
Enfrentar may be used to let implicit that the subject had no choice but to face the situation.
Confrontar has a nuance of competition and mutual defiance or parity; thus, is usually a reflexive verb: _confrontar-se._
Arrostar denotes resilience in struggling not to perish, lose or give up upon the events.


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> How about having to deal with problems (Dutch: _kampen me_t), facing problems?


German uses a similar expression: _mit etwas kämpfen_ (literally 'to fight with something'). The expression _gegen etwas kämpfen_ (lit. 'to fight against something') is more typical where the 'enemy' (i.e. the problem) is clearly defined. The verb _etwas bekämpfen_ ('to fight something') can often be used interchangeably with _mit/gegen etwas kämpfen_.

Expressions like 'to face a problem' can be translated as _einem Problem gegenüberstehen_ (lit. 'to stand opposed to a problem'), or _den Tatsachen ins Auge sehen_ (lit. 'to look into the facts' eye'), apparently associating facts with a (human) enemy (hence 'the eye'). The former seems to be less pro-active than the latter.  


ThomasK said:


> do you hear political parties used these fighting words in recent years? _(I am not referrring to terror, just in general: do you hear political parties using these fighting/ struggling metaphors when referring to their specific causes?°_


Yes, very often, at least in Germany (not sure about Austria and Switzerland). It strikes me that political debates are often described as _Streit_ even if the debate is just part of the normal political process. _Koalitionsstreit_ = 'battle' within the coalition government (can refer to different opinions being discussed). I don't think it is a recent trend, though. Another example: _Wahlkampf_, lit. 'election battle', is just a normal election campaigne (of course 'campaign' has a similar etymology but a much broader meaning, I think).


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## 123xyz

Macedonian:

*тепа *(tepa) - beat, batter, clobber
*се тепа* (se tepa) - fight, engage in physical combat; originally a reciprocal of the above (to beat each other); colloquially, it can mean "battle, fight against", e.g. mice, but not against repression or for rights
*се бори* (se bori) - fight, battle (including against repression or for rights)
*се избори* (se izbori; perfective of the above) - to successfully complete a battle for something, e.g. to get certain rights after fighting for them; this is not the same as "to win", since it emphasises what has been acquired thanks to the victory rather than the victory itself


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## ThomasK

I forgot to reply here, but thanks. If you are still around: can you fight mice in your house? *се бори*?


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## igusarov

Russian.
There are many fight-related verbs: "бороться", "биться", "воевать", "сражаться", and some less generic words for specific types of fight.

1.
"*Бороться*" can mean "to struggle", "to wrestle", "to fight". This verb has evolved from ancient noun "брань", which is still in use these days with the meaning "vulgar language", "swear words", "profanity". Original meaning of that word, "a battle", is considered obsolete now and is preserved only in some idioms like:

"Поле брани" (poetic) = literally, assuming modern meaning "field of swear words" = "battlefield".

Figurative usage of this word is quite rich and versatile. Typical connotation is strong desire against something (or pro- something), and being fair (that is use only civilized means):
"Врачи борятся за жизнь больного" = lit. "Doctors [are] fighting for the life [of the] sick-one".
"Иммунная система борется с болезнью" = lit. "Immune system is fighting the disease".
"Бороться за президентское кресло" = lit. "To fight for the president's seat" - that is to compete to win the elections.
"Бороться за независимость" = lit. "To fight for independence" - and similar slogans used by political parties.
"Бороться с крысами" = lit. "To fight with the rats" - to make efforts to eliminate the rats.
"Пожарные борятся с огнём" = lit. "The firemen are fighting the fire" - this one is about the firefighters and their profession.
"Бороться с усталостью" = lit. "To fight with fatigue" - to try to overcome the fatigue, to do something important despite being extremely tired.
"Бороться с холодом" = lit. "To fight with cold" - that's what you do in winter wearing warm coats and heating the living space.
"Бороться с курением" = lit. "To fight with smoking" - that's what the state does when it wants people to stop smoking.
"Бороться с собой" = lit. "To fight with oneself" - about fighting one's sins and weaknesses.
"Желание борется в нём со страхом" = lit. "Desire fights inside him with fears" - about a situation when someone has two strong motives, and can't yet decide what to do. We say it as if those

It may be interesting to note that noun "оборона" ("defense") has evolved from the same word.

2.
"*Биться*" is based on the verb "бить", that is "to hit", "to beat". It can be used about wars and battles. Figuratively it can be used in the meaning "to put a lot of efforts into something", sometimes with a connotation "helplessly, in vain":
"Учёные бьются над созданием лекарства от рака" = literally "Scientists are fighting above(over) the creation of the medicine against cancer". It means that they are doing their best, that they put a lot of efforts into this research with implied connotation that the efforts are not productive yet.
Compare: "битва" = "battle"; "добиться" = "to achieve", to get something as the result of efforts.

3.
"*Воевать*" is based on "война", "a war". In its primary sense it means some armed military activity. It can be used figuratively too, although less frequently than "бороться" and only in the context "against someone/something". The connotation is violent fight, possibly involving unfair means.
"Воевать с родителями" = "to have a war with one's parents" - a typical behavior of young people when they want to get out of parent's control.

4.
"*Сражаться*" is derived from the verb "разить" which means to strike down, to inflict damage. The combination of prefix "с-" (with-) and reflexive "-ся" (-self) brings the reciprocal meaning of mutual action "each other", giving the overall meaning "to strike each other down". This verb can be used figuratively much like "бороться", and also for table games:
"Сражаться в карты, в шахматы" = literally "to fight in cards, in chess" - in the sense "to play cards, chess".
"Сражаться с ветряными мельницами" = "to fight the windmills".

Other words based on the same concept are "поражение" = "defeat" and "поразительный" = "striking" as in "striking resemblance".


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## ThomasK

What an impressive list! Thanks a lot!

I'd say:
- *Бороться *reminds me of our _strijden_, fig. fighting (combatting) or _bestrijden. _I recognize the variation perfectly!
- we seldom use something war-like like *Воевать,* I think, except when fighting huge social problems like drugs, or against terrorism (interesting that you have a specific figurative word)
_- *Биться: *_we would not use _*slaan *_(strike, beat) here, but some form of _*vechten *(fighting), _where the result might be less clear than when we _strijden_, but that distinction is very subtle - the etymological link with an _achieve_ verb seems inexistent in Dutch (although I find the association intriguing)

I would make a distinction between those two and the other ones like the following which describe the fighting as trying to beat, I think...
- *Сражаться *then is when the fighting result in victory, if I understand well, or rather in defeat (de-feat, strike down, _ver_[till the end]-_slaan_ (beat) in Dutch...), though i hesitate: Don Quichote did try hard, but he never defeated the windmills _(it is funny but we seem to think of DonQ's fights as a powergame, a confrontation, whereas your word seems to be suggesting that he explicitly wanted to defeat them, which is less present in Dutch, I think)_


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## LoQuelcomiste

Probably, most Romance languages are quite the same for what concerns us.

Catalan:

• *Lluitar: *to fight
•*Barallar-se*: to argue physically (but sometimes it's also used as in «dissent» or «break up»).
• *Batallar: *to figh during battles (quite unused)
•*Guerrejar*: to make war
•*Confrontar*: to confront sth, to face sth
•*Bregar*: to engage in a street-fight, but also to fight plain as in «lluitar».
• *Enfrontar-se*: to confront each other, or to confront something or someone.
• *Encarar/Encarar-se*: to face
•*Combatre: *as in Portuguese
•*Batre/Barre's:* To win over someone, to fight a duel, etc. Not archaic but definitely rare outside of its collocations.
•*Peleiar: *to fight, not used unless you're a medieval knight speaking medieval Catalan.

Combatre les rates/Lluitar amb les rates/Bregar amb les rates (more literary, and it also adds a sense of «dealing with» plus «fighting»)

Combatre la repressió/Confrontar la repressió (it's different from «combatre» in a sense, but I don't know how)/Lluitar contra la repressió.

Lluitar pels drets/Combatre pels drets/Batre's pels drets (more literary and with a sense of physical confrontation, while the other could mean either «to fight» or «to struggle»).


I hope someone else will post the Spanish lexicon, but it's basically a mix of what we see in Portuguese and in Catalan, maintaining both «luchar» and «pelear» in current speech, with a different sense (you do «pelear» in a pub, but «luchar» at the Parliament or at war).


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## ThomasK

Which ones can you use figuratively, LQ? I can see_ lluitar, combatre_... Any others?

I also wonder whether Turkish, Japanese, Chinese use the verb figuratively...


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## LoQuelcomiste

ThomasK said:


> Which ones can you use figuratively, LQ? I can see_ lluitar, combatre_... Any others?
> 
> I also wonder whether Turkish, Japanese, Chinese use the verb figuratively...



Lluitar, combatre and bregar (but, still, bregar it's quite unusual in day-to-day speech). That's all, I think.

Also, I edited my previous list, because I forgot the word «barallar-se», which is nonetheless among the most common of them.


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## ThomasK

Wouldn't you think, LQ, that the others are not so really about fighting? I see other extra meanings which have to do with fighting but only indirectly, I'd say, in some kind of secondary sense (e.g. to win, but OK, by fighting...).


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