# печенье (Genitive Plural)



## AJ2018

Hi, I'm trying to say that I cannot eat ice cream without cookies.

Can I say: Я не могу есть mороженое без *печеньей*.

Is that okay?


----------



## elroy

Wiktionary is a good source for declensions. 

It gives me *печeний *for the genitive plural.

печенье - Wiktionary


----------



## AJ2018

elroy said:


> Wiktionary is a good source for declensions.
> 
> It gives me *печeний *for the genitive plural.
> 
> печенье - Wiktionary


I appreciate your suggestion. Please know that I never post here without doing research FIRST!

And secondly, I come here because I trust the feedback of native speakers.

I am aware of Wiktionary and actually did check that source before coming here, but that particular ending does not match my chart for some reason. And that's why I'm here.

But thank you kindly for the suggestion. And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm sure it will help others who read this. But again, I trust native speakers over any websites.


----------



## elroy

If you google “без печеньей” you get literally zero hits.  If you google “без печeний” you get lots of hits, including some from Google Books (this one* and this one,** for example).  Any experienced googler will tell you that's enough evidence that the first one is wrong and the second one is right.

*Seventh line from the top.
*Third line from the top.



AJ2018 said:


> that particular ending does not match my chart for some reason.


What does your chart say?  What's your source?  Maybe there's a mistake in your chart.  If you share the details, people might be able to help you figure out what's going on.


----------



## AJ2018

elroy said:


> If you google “без печеньей” you get literally zero hits.  If you google “без печeний” you get lots of hits, including some from Google Books (this one and this one, for example).  Any experienced googler will tell you that's enough evidence that the first one is wrong and the second one is right.
> 
> 
> What does your chart say?  What's your source?  Maybe there's a mistake in your chart.  If you share the details, people might be able to help you figure out what's going on.


Thanks. I'm also leery of google searches. There are millions of hits for "ain't" - that certainly doesn't mean it is correct. 

And please save your shady comments for someplace else. I invite you to read the forum rules on professional behavior here. 

Furthermore, it is rude to assume that I have conducted zero research before posting my question. I am under no obligation to cite all the research I've done before asking a question. 

Again, I appreciate your suggestion. But I will respectfully wait for further corroboration from native speakers.


----------



## Rosett

Just say, «я не ем мороженое без печенья».


----------



## elroy

Rosett said:


> Just say, «я не ем мороженое без печенья».


Is the plural unidiomatic in this context?


----------



## AJ2018

Rosett said:


> Just say, «я не ем мороженое без печенья».



Thank you - so I was right to wait for a native speaker!

@elroy  - THIS is the perfect example of why I don't rely on Wiktionary, alone. Sometimes it's okay. But when you get into the complex realm of the genitive plural, particularly with exceptions, it is key you get confirmation from native speakers. 

@Rosett does печеньe refer to SEVERAL cookies, or is it just ONE cookie? 

I ask this specific question because the -я ending for is for genitive SINGULAR, not genitive plural. 

Could you kindly offer some more clarity on this, Rossett. 

Again, thank you kindly for your contribution.


----------



## Rosett

elroy said:


> Is the plural unidiomatic in this context?


In the given context, печенье has no plural form from the traditional Russian point of view.
But… if you mean cookies as small delectable  bits, then it should be «я не ем мороженого без кусочков бисквита». The latter sounds horrible, though.


----------



## Rosett

AJ2018 said:


> @Rosett does печеньe refer to SEVERAL cookies, or is it just ONE cookie?


It could be one or several sizeable pieces (comparable to the ice cream serving,) however, печенье remains singular, as if fish/sheep/deer in English.

But it may depend on suggested serving.


----------



## AJ2018

@Rosett - Отлично! Вы очень помогали мне понять эту концепцию. Cпасибо.


----------



## Rosett

elroy said:


> Is the plural unidiomatic in this context?


There’s печенька sg/печеньки pl, but it’s rather colloquial for an official menu item.
A standard plural form may apply to a combination of different flavours, sizes, makes.


----------



## Rosett

AJ2018 said:


> @Rosett - Отлично! Вы очень помогли мне понять эту концепцию. Cпасибо.


I’m sure other foreros would contribute more than that.
Traditional Soviet ice cream bars or cones sold at parlours were on waffles or coated in chocolate (bars or puffs, эскимо or Ленинградское in foil Google Image Result for https://mykaleidoscope.ru/uploads/posts/2021-09/1632874046_17-mykaleidoscope-ru-p-morozhenoe-leningradskoe-sssr-krasivo-foto-25.jpg)

Google Image Result for https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/lookaside/crawler/media/?media_id=4306172179405158

The only ice cream with печенье (large cookies) could be the ice cream cakes.
Google Image Result for http://www.mintorgmuseum.ru/images/vocabulary/morozhenoe-pirozhnye.jpg


----------



## pimlicodude

elroy said:


> Is the plural unidiomatic in this context?


печений is correct as the gpl, and so is sometimes attested (as Rosett said, for different types of biscuits, much as "cheeses" can be plural in English, referring to different types of cheese), but the word печенье is also collective in meaning, so I was expecting the answer Rosett gave, ie. без печенья. Note, however, that the Russian wiktionary is compiled by native speakers (and is more reliable than the English wiktionary), and does mention the collective use (meaning 3).


----------



## elroy

That makes sense.  The title of this thread says "genitive plural," so my answers only focused on identifying the correct genitive plural form.  At no point did I say the genitive plural was or wasn't idiomatic in the particular example sentence in the first post.


----------



## AJ2018

pimlicodude said:


> печений is correct as the gpl, and so is sometimes attested (as Rosett said, for different types of biscuits, much as "cheeses" can be plural in English, referring to different types of cheese), but the word печенье is also collective in meaning, so I was expecting the answer Rosett gave, ie. без печенья. Note, however, that the Russian wiktionary is compiled by native speakers (and is more reliable than the English wiktionary), and does mention the collective use (meaning 3).



Thanks so much for this clarification. 

I insisted on waiting for a native speaker because I knew this was some sort of a nuanced exception. Had I blindly used what was written, without double checking with a native speaker, it would sound strange. I'm glad I didn't. Had it not been for @Rosett I would have never connected the dots. Now, I have a better feel for what's going on, which is the purpose of this forum.


----------



## Awwal12

...And since печенье is most typically used in a collective manner, colloquial Russian tends to avoid using it regarding separate cookies, preferring its derivatives instead (пече́нька, печеню́шка etc.).


----------



## pimlicodude

As for the declension pattern, it is normal for -ья in the Nom Pl to become -ий in the Gen Pl. This is just standard declension.
Take for example, копьё, "spear". The Nom Pl is копья and the Gen Pl is копий. (копий is also the Gen Pl of копия, "copy, duplicate)


----------



## nizzebro

The issue is actually in the very nature of this product - which in the grammar is denoted by a collective and so normally singular-only noun, as if sugar or honey, but in reality represents separate pieces. So, as others wrote, generally it is 'без печенья', but colloquially, the speakers can use derived diminutive forms 'печенек/печенюшек' to focus on pieces - however, these are colored with a "cutie" sense. Someone could use "без печений", but is not a common form that sounds both indistinct  morphologically and creates some "large-scaled" associations; "печеньей" is ungrammatical, and so is "печеньев" (other decl.pattern, bound to masc. nouns) - the latter, however could be used jokingly (this manner of fooling around is not so rare).


----------



## Rosett

The most precise term for “ice cream with cookies” in Russian would be «мороженое с печеньицами», but it’s occasional.
Goodreads › show
Мое частное бессмертие by Борис Клетинич - Goodreads
Кинотеатр "Патрия" и мороженое с печеньицами, магазин "Букурия", платаны, липы, люки, ул. Бендерская, рынок на Армянской! улица 

However, in the modern Russia «мороженое с печеньем» has already gained some ground as “ice cream with cookies”:
Мороженое с печеньем, пошаговый рецепт с фото


----------



## MIDAV

Grammatical or not, I would most probably say _печеньев_ in a phrase that requires genitive plural, as in _пять штук печеньев_. 

Conversely, no matter how grammatical _печений _is, I would be reluctant to use it - for reasons that I'm having trouble to properly formulate.


----------



## lyubov950

There's no plural for word "печенье" in daily use. "Печеньки" - small cookies, мороженое без печенек (vernacular) or мороженое без кусочков печенья (more literate). Печеньев is error. The most literate is word печений.
Я не могу есть мороженое без *печений*. (Yes you can but you don't like it btw). Я не люблю мороженое без *кусочков печенья*. Мне не нравится мороженое без *печенек*. The most appropriate site Поиск ответа


----------

