# Hindi/Urdu: 'mano' VS 'goya'



## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

I understand both the terms to mean 'as if'. As an example can I replace 'mano' in 'woh aise hans rahi hai mano kuch chipa rahi ho.' to 'goya'?

Thanks!


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## UrduMedium

I'm not familiar with this usage for _mano_. I'm familiar with '_manaa kih_' which roughly means granted.


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## lafz_puchnevala

UrduMedium said:


> I'm not familiar with this usage for _mano_. I'm familiar with '_manaa kih_' which roughly means granted.



What about 'goya' here?


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## UrduMedium

Using _goya _in your sentence may not be wrong, but it does not feel like the natural fit for it. My preference would be to use _jaise _here, instead.


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## BP.

UrduMedium said:


> Using _goya _in your sentence may not be wrong, but it does not feel like the natural fit for it. ...


It fits quite naturally for me. jaisee does too. I have my doubts about manoo too.
Thanks.


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## greatbear

"mano" in your sentence is fine for me, as is "jaise". I have never heard the word "goya", so can't comment on that.


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi,
> 
> I understand both the terms to mean 'as if'. As an example can I replace 'mano' in 'woh aise hans rahi hai mano kuch chipa rahi ho.' to 'goya'?
> 
> Thanks!


 ‘mano’ in this context does convey the meaning of ‘as if’ but has another usage too. Use of both ‘mano’ and ‘goyaa’ would be considered idiomatic here! However, depending on which company you are in, the latter (goyaa) would give a feeling of ‘elevated speech’. We use ‘goyaa’ often in Urdu, be it speech, prose or poetry. Many examples in poetry where _goyaa _(= as if ) is used:


_goyaa__ ta3aaruf rag-e-gardan se nahiiN !_
As if you don’t know your own jugular vein! 

Mani Jaisi <_maanii jaa’isii_ – Urdu poet>
[To put in context, the line is in reference to God being closer to you than your own jugular vein, as mentioned in the Qur’an (50:16).]

_tum mere paas hote ho goyaa 
jab ko’ii doosraa nahiiN hotaa

_You are with me [as if] 
When no one else is

Momin Khan Momin, dehlavii Urdu poet.

In the English translation, the ‘goyaa’ meaning doesn’t come out so well and clear here, unlike Mani’s verse above.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> ‘mano’ in this context does convey the meaning of ‘as if’ but has another usage too. Use of both ‘mano’ and ‘goyaa’ would be considered idiomatic here! However, depending on which company you are in, the latter (goyaa) would give a feeling of ‘elevated speech’. We use ‘goyaa’ often in Urdu, be it speech, prose or poetry. Many examples in poetry where _goyaa _(= as if ) is used:
> 
> 
> _goyaa__ ta3aaruf rag-e-gardan se nahiiN !_
> As if you don’t know your own jugular vein!
> 
> Mani Jaisi <_maanii jaa’isii_ – Urdu poet>
> [To put in context, the line is in reference to God being closer to you than your own jugular vein, as mentioned in the Qur’an (50:16).]
> 
> _tum mere paas hote ho goyaa
> jab ko’ii doosraa nahiiN hotaa
> 
> _You are with me [as if]
> When no one else is
> 
> Momin Khan Momin, dehlavii Urdu poet.
> 
> In the English translation, the ‘goyaa’ meaning doesn’t come out so well and clear here, unlike Mani’s verse above.



Faylasoof SaaHib. I thought the word in question was "maano" or is everyone assuming that by "mano" it is "maano" that is actually implied? Are you aware if "maano" is ever used by Urdu speakers, now or historically?


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib. I thought the word in question was "maano" or is everyone assuming that by "mano" it is "maano" that is actually implied? Are you aware if "maano" is ever used by Urdu speakers, now or historically?


 QP SaaHib, I have indeed assumed that 'mano' as presented by LP is what we would write as 'maano' as per _our_ transliteration rules! In Urdu we do use _maano_ in the sense mentioned above although it is quite possible that for some (many) Urduphones now this may appear as unfamiliar usage.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, I have indeed assumed that 'mano' as presented by LP is what we would write as 'maano' as per _our_ transliteration rules! In Urdu we do use _maano_ in the sense mentioned above although it is quite possible that for some (many) Urduphones now this may appear as unfamiliar usage.



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I'll try searching for it in our literature. I did find a couple of non-literary examples on the net. This one is probably better of the two.

*جنگل میں ایک درخت گرا اور زبردست آواز پیدا ہوئی – آس پاس کوئی ذی روح نہیں تھا جو اس آواز کو سنتا-- تو وہ درخت مانو گرا ہی نہیں

*jangal meN ek daraxt giraa aur zabardast aavaaz paidaa hu'ii. aas-paas ko'ii zii-ruuH nahiiN thaa jo us aavaaz ko suntaa. to vuh daraxt maano giraa hii nahiiN


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## lafz_puchnevala

It would be 'maano' even when writing in Devanagari. My apologies for the confusion..


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> In Urdu we do use _maano_ in the sense mentioned above although it is quite possible that for some (many) Urduphones now this may appear as unfamiliar usage.


I consulted Farhang-e-Aasafiyyah for this usage of _maano:

مانو ۔ (ہ) ۔ حرفِ تشبیہ:۔ (گیتوں میں) (۱) جیسا ۔ گویا ۔ مثلاً۔
_
What follows are other usages which are not applicable here, and an example of a _dohaa:

گورے گورے ہاتھ میں چوڑی ادھک سہائے ۔۔۔ مانو چندن ڈار ناگ رہو لپٹائے
_
This piece of information makes me think that it is not _faSiiH_ usage in Urdu. I can't remember having heard or read this _tarkiib_ in Urdu but I'm familiar with it from Hindi texts.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I'll try searching for it in our literature. I did find a couple of non-literary examples on the net. This one is probably better of the two.
> 
> *جنگل میں ایک درخت گرا اور زبردست آواز پیدا ہوئی – آس پاس کوئی ذی روح نہیں تھا جو اس آواز کو سنتا-- تو وہ درخت مانو گرا ہی نہیں
> 
> *jangal meN ek daraxt giraa aur zabardast aavaaz paidaa hu'ii. aas-paas ko'ii zii-ruuH nahiiN thaa jo us aavaaz ko suntaa. to vuh daraxt maano giraa hii nahiiN


Yes QP SaaHib, this is the way one would use it in Urdu - as a colloquial, non-literary form of expression.

You'll do us all a favour if you can find this usage in a literary source. Urdu poets and writers, classical and more modern, have a habit of springing surprises at you so I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if we do end up with an example in our literature. 

I was trying to recall lines from Anis since he had the habit of sometimes bringing expressions from daily speech too into his _marthiyaa _poetry, but at the moment I can only partially recall something that needs to be confirmed.


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> It would be 'maano' even when writing in Devanagari. My apologies for the confusion..


 No problem! We did figure out what you were asking.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> I consulted Farhang-e-Aasafiyyah for this usage of _maano:
> 
> مانو ۔ (ہ) ۔ حرفِ تشبیہ:۔ (گیتوں میں) (۱) جیسا ۔ گویا ۔ مثلاً۔
> _
> What follows are other usages which are not applicable here, and an example of a _dohaa:
> 
> گورے گورے ہاتھ میں چوڑی ادھک سہائے ۔۔۔ مانو چندن ڈار ناگ رہو لپٹائے
> _
> This piece of information makes me think that it is not _faSiiH_ usage in Urdu. I can't remember having heard or read this _tarkiib_ in Urdu but I'm familiar with it from Hindi texts.


 marrish SaaHib, for some reason both your quotations have come out as above! Is it possible to present these in Romanized form? 

As we are discussing, and as you mention as well, this use of 'maano' would generally not be considered _fasiiH _Urdu, but it is still heard in speech though perhaps less so or not at all in some parts compared to others.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, for some reason both your quotations have come out as above! Is it possible to present these in Romanized form?
> 
> As we are discussing, and as you mention as well, this use of 'maano' would generally not be considered _fasiiH _Urdu, but it is still heard in speech though perhaps less so or not at all in some parts compared to others.


On my computer I can read them, also in the quotation in your post. Here is the Romanized version:

_*maano* - (h) - Harf-e-tashbiih:- (giitoN meN) (1) jaisaa, goyaa, masal-an.

gore gore haath meN chuuRii adhik suhaa'e --- maano chandan Daar naag raho* lipTaa'e
_
(Farhang-e-Aasafiyyah)
*I'm not sure about this word due to the quality of print.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> On my computer I can read them, also in the quotation in your post. Here is the Romanized version:
> 
> _*maano* - (h) - Harf-e-tashbiih:- (giitoN meN) (1) jaisaa, goyaa, masal-an.
> 
> gore gore haath meN chuuRii adhik suhaa'e --- maano chandan Daar naag raho* lipTaa'e
> _
> (Farhang-e-Aasafiyyah)
> *I'm not sure about this word due to the quality of print.


 Thanks for the Romanization! Not sure why, but on my computer (at work) I see just a series of squares. 

So, good to see that the Farhang mentions both _goyaa_ and _jaisaa_, apart from _mathalan_, as synonyms.  

* I shall try find out about this word.


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## marrish

Thank both of you.  Since I was the one who unsuccessfully tried to quote it, I'll open the thread, otherwise perhaps Faylasoof SaaHib can split the existing one?


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Yes QP SaaHib, this is the way one would use it in Urdu - as a colloquial, non-literary form of expression.
> 
> You'll do us all a favour if you can find this usage in a literary source. Urdu poets and writers, classical and more modern, have a habit of springing surprises at you so I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if we do end up with an example in our literature.
> 
> I was trying to recall lines from Anis since he had the habit of sometimes bringing expressions from daily speech too into his _marthiyaa _poetry, but at the moment I can only partially recall something that needs to be confirmed.


I am afraid I have n't yet found anything from literature as such but here are two examples from "najmu_lamsaal" by Maulavii Muhammad Najmu_ddiin, published in 1900

maano tuu dev nahiiN, to patthar

maano tuu dev nahiiN, to bhiit* kaa lev**

* wall

** layer

* It may interest Punjabi speakers that "p_hit" in Punjabi means a "door".


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## Faylasoof

I've just opened a new thread for the _dohaa _quoted by marrish SaaHib. So now we can discuss all there is to it *here*.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> I am afraid I have n't yet found anything from literature as such but here are two examples from "najmu_lamsaal" by Maulavii Muhammad Najmu_ddiin, published in 1900
> 
> maano tuu dev nahiiN, to patthar
> 
> maano tuu dev nahiiN, to bhiit* kaa lev**
> 
> * wall
> 
> ** layer
> 
> * It may interest Punjabi speakers that "p_hit" in Punjabi means a "door".


 This is good enough! _amthaal _usages are just fine by me. Different to literary usage but quite OK, I feel.


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