# ي / ى (final yaa2)



## Jana337

In an Arabic book for learners that I am reading (trying to read ) they constantly use "ى" instead of "ي" at the end of words (هى, فى, شيء etc.). Is this practice standard and common nowadays (the book is an oldtimer)? Frankly, I don't like it much because reading in Arabic is demanding enough even without such traps. 

Jana


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## elroy

All I have to say is that it's very common.  Whether it's technically "correct" or "acceptable" I don't know.  It's one of those things we all get used to seeing without really bothering to think or ask about.  Perhaps others can offer more enlightening answers.


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## cherine

Yes, here in Egypt we almost never use ي , but to my knowledge it's used in the Gulf countries and maybe also in the Maghreb. I admit it's more practical, but here we just know the words. I think you'll learn them too and get to read them without the help of the yaa2.
Good luck Jana


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## Jana337

Thanks, Cherine, but did you mean that you don't use ي at the end of words? Or not at all? 

Jana


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## cherine

At the end of the words of course


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## elroy

Cherine, I realize that this spelling is widely used (we Palestinians don't use it as frequently as you do in Egypt), but the question is whether it's technically *correct*.  I personally always write or type the two dots, because to me ى is alef maqSuura, and not yaa.

So is it correct?  Would this spelling be acceptable in a formal piece of writing?  Or is it simply a tendency that has somehow arisen and become common?


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## cherine

I'm not sure about "correct", but this is the way it's used here (in Egypt) we almost never type the two dots in the end of the words, we just know how they are to be read.
When I first learned about the "other way" (i.e. yaa2 with 2 dots) I didn't like it much, maybe because I wasn't used to it, then I had to admit to myself it's better  because it helps differentiate between the two types of yaa2.
And to answer your second question : yes it is acceptable in formal pieces of writing, it's used everywhere here. When did it start ? how did it become so common ? these are questions I don't know their answer  But if I learn anything new in this subject, I'll sure let you know.


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## Zaeem

الياء الأخيرة(في آخر الكلمة) المنقوطة لم تكن مستعملة في حروف الطباعة بالمطابع المصرية ، وكان علماء مصر يحرصون على وضع الكسرة تحت الحرف الذي قبلها إذا وجدوا أن الكلمة بغيرهذه الكسرة تلتبس بأخرى ، وللتفرقة بين (على) إذا كان اسم شخص فإنهم يجعلون على الياء شدة وهي أسنان السين - كما نعرفها جميعا - وبين (على) إذا كان حرف جر بأن تترك بغير شيء ، وأما نحو (على) التي هي حرف جر مدغم في ياء المتكلم فقد جعلوا على اللام فتحة وعلى الياء شدة وفتحة ، ولا تزال تلك طريقة المصريين في الطباعة والكتابة اليدوية إلا ما اضطروا إليه لطباعة الكتب لغيرهم فإنهم يلتزمون بصورة الكتاب كما أراده المؤلف أو الناشر.

The translation:​
The Yaa at the end of the word with two dots was not used on the keyboards of Egyptian typewriters, and Egyptian scientists were careful to place a kasra under the previous letter if they found that the word without the kasra could be mistaken for another. To differentiate between "3ali," the name of a person, and "3ala," a preposition, they placed a shadda (which looks like a mini-siin, as we all know) on the last letter of the former, and left the latter without any diacritics. As for "3alayya," a combination of a preposition and the first person singular pronoun, they placed a fat7a on the laam and both a shadda and a fat7a on the alif. This is still the way Egyptians type and handwrites, with the exception of modifications they are required to make when printing books for others, in which case they adhere to the printing conventions set out by the author or the printer.

Zaeem


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## Anatoli

Hi,

I learned originally to use ى usually when it is pronounced as aa in final positions, e.g. على but later in other textbooks I noticed that yaa' maqSuura is often written when it should be a yaa' with dots, e.g. نبي (nabiy-) written as نبى.

Somewhere I read that yaa' with dots has been introduced recently, before there was no such letter.

Please explain what the deal is. I have an impression that both spellings are allowed and used interchangeably.

EDIT:
_It has become much clearer to me when the threads were merged, although it looks a bit funny, since I am asking the question, which has been answered in the previous posts 
_


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## suma

Anatoli said:


> Somewhere I read that yaa' with dots has been introduced recently, before there was no such letter.



this is probably true, as it's generally known that long ago all of the Arabic letters where undotted, and that the dots where introduce later on as the language spread out from its birthplace.

I've been taught that the Syrians insist that the undotted ya is used only when read as alif maqSura, and the dots must be written when read otherwise.

while on the otherhand the Egyptian academics have no such rule and even when pronounce as _ee_ or _ay_ at the end of a word the dots may be omitted.

BTW it's nabiy not nubiy


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## Tajabone

Hi again, dear Anatoli 

Let's stick to some elements (this is to say that I've forgot the rules for this case but somehow I get by  )

The *ى* is used as a long sound (let's say as an opposite tone of *ها* ). You can see and use this sound with *مقهى* for instance (a coffee shop). The same sound is also used in verbs (e.g. بكى = bakaa)

As for the *ي* it is mostly used as a possessive, e.g. *كتابي* .

This is the gross distinction I can give you at this point of the night/day.

Night night !

ps: I guess you were referring to Nabiy (instead of nubiy)


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## Anatoli

I fixed the transliteration of "nabiy", thanks guys for pointing it to me. I see, the academics haven't agreed on which spelling is correct. I find usage of dotted yaa' helpful when it's pronounced as ii (kasra + yaa') or ay (fatHa + yaa') but it's worth getting used to alternatives as well and it's worth remembering when doing a search.


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## Lugubert

I have also seen end-yaa with an alif sikkin above, not only for alif maqsura but for -ii/-iy contexts. It seems to me that this is more prevalent in Persian and Urdu. Do you agree? I find it misleading for an -ii.


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## إسكندراني

This is a matter of typeface/font/writing style I think. It is today more common in some countries than others.


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## rayloom

The problem I think is that the dotting of the final yaa was a relatively later development.
Even in the Quran, the final yaa isn't dotted.

Although the مجمع اللغة العربية in Cairo has stressed the importance of dotting the final yaa, this has yet to become common practice.

I remember in school in Saudi, although we did learn that a final yaa should be dotted, this was never really practiced widely in handwriting. Same case for the final taa marbuTa. 

Personally:
I write the final yaa like this ے, and the taa marbuTa something like an extension under the word! Really difficult to add dots there.
I even remember some words which were rarely ever dotted. A word like سنة in handwriting!

Typing in Arabic is quite different; it's difficult to omit the dots. In fact, omitting the dots of a taa marbuTa for example, all of a sudden just looks wrong!


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## Masjeen

في حالة مقهى فإن  الألف المقصورة يوضع لها علامة (ا) صغيرة فوقها لتبين انها الف مقصورة


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## Bilbo Baggins

Hello,

I'm reading, little by little, my downloaded fully-vocalized text to practice pronunciation; I came across this word: 
الجَمْزُورِى
 I'm interested in the ending where the raa carries a kasra and then an alif in its terminal form immediately follows. I've seen, posted an inquiry here regarding, and now fully understand the fatha-alif, kasra-yaa, and damma-waaw combinations. However, I've never seen this "mixed combination" where a kasra and alif are back-to-back. Are these combinations common? I've never seen these before. How is the ending of this word pronounced?

Thanks.


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## AndyRoo

Hi,

The ى is not an alif, it is a dotless yaa. In some countries (notably Egypt) the final yaa is written without dots. Preceded by a kasra it is pronounced "ii", as a normal dotted yaa would be.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Ah, I see. This is interesting and good to know. Is this common? In how many countries does this happen? Further, how do we distinguish between this terminal yaa and terminal alif?


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## clevermizo

Egypt is the only country I can think of, but they're only distinguishable by knowing the words.


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## Pod of Wales

The more you read, the more you will get used to it - it really is very common for the yaa' to appear without dots when it is pronounced as a long "ii". I think it is more common though for it to be a long "ii" than for it to be an "aa" sound, or an "an" sound which it sometimes appears as. Especially if there is a kasra before an undotted yaa', it will be long "ii".


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## إسكندراني

Formally, it's a font issue; ي=ى in a different font. Some Qur'ans have يٰ, and vice versa with Egypt only using ى. Distinguishing between the two is somewhat new and not set in stone; they are considered by most to still be the same character, so we don't pay attention to it - and in fact when I was young I was taught that ي existed to type at the start & middle of a word and ى existed for the end (ييى), else it was a mistake (ييي) - so I used to wonder why they didn't have a character which eliminated the dots automatically at the end (ييى). It turns out there is one, but it's in the persian section of Unicode (this one ییی). I would argue that 'Arabic (Egypt)' keyboards should automatically get that ييى.

By the way Egypt & the Sudan follow the same convention for many things, this included.

Don't expect the ي vs ى to be distinguished, and don't expect the alif-maqSuura ىٰ to be written at the end of a word.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks, everyone.


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## Mahaodeh

Pod of Wales said:


> it really is very common for the yaa' to appear without dots when it is pronounced as a long "ii". .



Not to me, I hardly ever see it (obviously, I've never been to Egypt). Frankly, I can't read it properly if it doesn't have the dots and initially I start by reading it as an alif maqsoura and when the word doesn't work then I try out the yaa; usually after half a dozen don't work then I try out the yaa.


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