# croire / penser



## NickySix

Are the two verbs interchangeable?  For example, can you say:

_Je pense qu'il y a toujours une raison pour cela.
Je crois qu'il y a toujours une raison pour cela._

Or:

_Je pense que si nous parlons l'anglais puis il rirait.
Je crois que si nous parlons l'anglais puis il rirait._

(And with the second examples, if the sentence refers to two friends speaking, should it be *on parle*?)

I've always wondered about both, and I can't seem to get a straight answer from any teacher.

Merci beaucoup.


----------



## DDT

IMHO that's just a matter of nuances, "croire" and "penser" can both be rendered as the English "to think"

Concerning the second phrase, "Je crois que si nous parlons l'anglais puis il rirait", I'd suggest "je crois que si on parlait anglais il rirait" ("puis" sounds pleonastic to me this case)

DDT


----------



## Agnès E.

I guess yes, in your examples.
Anyway, just a little correction, NickySix :

"Je pense qu'il rirait si nous parlions anglais"
"Je crois qu'il rirait si nous parlions anglais"

Have you already learnt this past conjugation : "parlions" ?


----------



## Yves

The correct way to say this would be:
"je pense que si nous parlions l'anglais, il rirait"


Penser et croire: penser means to think, croire means to believe, same difference as in English. "penser" would be the logical conclusion of a thought process, "croire" would be based on non-rational faith. Enfin, c'est ce que je pense...


----------



## Gil

Les bérets basques ont-ils tous une queue?

Je n'y ai jamais pensé, mais je crois que non...

In some contexts, you will see the difference.


----------



## DDT

Yves said:
			
		

> Penser et croire: penser means to think, croire means to believe, same difference as in English. "penser" would be the logical conclusion of a thought process, "croire" would be based on non-rational faith.



Let me disagree. The literal translation is the same, the use is different (as far as I know)

DDT


----------



## Yves

dear DDT,
I was always taught, in French schools and universities, that "penser" et "croire" are  exact opposites. Penser is to use your brain to try and reach a rational conclusion, "croire" is a thoughtless, non-rational statement of belief
Historically, in France, the "non-croyants" (who didn't believe in God) were also called "libre-penseurs".


----------



## Agnès E.

Well, you know, NickySix is only 11... perhaps can he wait a bit for this kind of "nuance", although YOU ARE RIGHT ! And, for the examples given, I am sure both will suit him.


----------



## DDT

I didn't refer to the French use, but to the English one 
The difference between "croire" and "penser" is the same in Italian so that I am fully aware of it...yet in English you're likely to find "croire" rendered as "to think" except when professing the faith in someone or in something

DDT


----------



## cheshire

(1) Marie *croit* que c'*est* facile.​
(2) Marie *pense* que c'*est *facile.​ 
In (1) the speaker thinks "c'est facile" is NOT a fact. Contrary, there's no such judgement expressed in (2). Is my understanding correct?


----------



## benjewels

in the firts sentence, the verb is more intense... Croire is stronger than penser. That's the only difference. But anyhow she is not sure about the fact it's easy.


----------



## john_riemann_soong

Wouldn't it be the speaker be expressing that doubt, however?


----------



## cheshire

benjewels said:


> in the firts sentence, the verb is more intense... Croire is stronger than penser. That's the only difference. But anyhow she is not sure about the fact it's easy.


"croire" is stronger than "penser" but is she not sure whether it IS easy or not? I'm sorry, that's hard to understand!


----------



## Punky Zoé

Hi
There is a slight difference between croire et penser, but not so easy to explain, and I think John-Riemann-Soong is right, the feeling of the speaker is in question.
"Marie croit que c'est facile": I'd say that the speaker don't know himself or herself if it is easy or not and don't know if marie is right or not.
"Marie pense que c'est facile" the speaker as no personal opinion but he/she trusts Marie.

Imagine such a discussion:
the speaker: "Marie pense que c'est facile"
the listener : "Si elle croit que c'est facile!" that expresse a huge doubt about the ease.

Zoé pense que c'est facile d'expliquer (!!!)


----------



## FranParis

Néanmoins, certains *pensent* que les *croyances* sont des propensions à la *facilité*.

Ainsi, *croire* est plus facile que *penser*, ce qui est l'opposé des définitions proposées, lequelles me paraissent judicieuses.


----------



## john_riemann_soong

Doesn't "penser" express a doubt sometimes?

I mean, in a work (office politics) situation someone could say, "Marie thinks she is better than all of us. I say we teach her a lesson in humility." [conspiracy scheme follows]


----------



## FranParis

Marie has no doubt on she being better that all of you. And you have no doubt she is not.


----------



## john_riemann_soong

Hmm, yes. What I meant to say is that "croire" seems to be indeed stronger than "penser", but I wonder if it actually casts any doubt so much more than the context does?

Also, furthermore, a person who says that is probably inferring from Marie's attitude what she thinks. She may have not actually explicitly articulated her thoughts. Besides, one can get a very recursive effect if we're going down the who's sure of what road. (Je crois _que_ Marie pense _qu_'elle est la meilleure entre nous, mais est-ce _qu_'elle sait _que_ nous savons _qu_'elle croit _que_ nous pensons _qu'_elle pense _que_ nous croyons _qu_'elle croit _que_ nous pensons _qu_'elle pense _qu_'elle est la meillure entre nous?")


----------



## cheshire

Doctor soong, could you explain your thoughts more plainly so that we laymen could understand it?


----------



## Québec-Jakarta

It can be easy to understand if you simply replace "croit" for "believe" and "pense" by "think"...  See the difference?


----------



## Unrealevil

I think that you are right. - Croire.

I think that Rome affected the rest of the world during that time period. - Penser.

To me, it's something like 'croire' is used for saying something that you believe or you have a non-factual opinion on whereas 'penser' is used for saying something that's factual.  I'm probably wrong.  XD


----------



## Trina

[…]
Also, I thought that _penser_ really should be used more in regards to the process of thinking rather than believing.
In other words, where in English, we might say "I think that..." , in French "Je crois que..." is more correct than "je pense que..."


----------



## Unrealevil

'...the process of thinking rather than believing.'

But in English, when we say think, I think that we really mean 'I believe that'.  And I just used it. 

I believe that we really mean 'I believe that'

more than

I think that we really mean 'I believe that'.

[…]


----------



## Trina

Yes, I know the difference between think and believe in English and that they are interchangeable. My point is that these (penser and croire) may not be as interchangeable in French.

[…]


----------



## broglet

They are not interchangeable in English: "I believe that God exists" is not at all the same as "I think God exists".  If you think God exists you can at the same time think he might not exist.  But if you believe that God exists you would not normally at the same time believe that he might not exist.  Which is quite different from believing that kiwi fruit come from China, which is perfectly compatible with believing they might not, although rather stronger than thinking they come from China.


----------



## BMR

Marie croit que c'est facile : She says it's easy but, I think it's not easy.
Marie pense que c'est facile : She says it's easy and I have no opinion myself, maybe it's easy, maybe not.


----------



## 8jatpc

When you say "Marie croit que c'est facile", Marie doesnt' formulate a belief (or a faith, in a religious way) but an opinion (a viewpoint) which is not sure: one could translate it in "Marie thinks it's easy but she's not sure". Whereas when you say "Marie pense que c'est facile", she's quite sure about it (because she thought about it -if we are speaking about an exercice, for instance- or because she's already done it).
In this case, "penser" (as in "marie pense...") is stronger than "croire". 

But usually, when we speak about believes, "croire" is stronger than "penser", like in English.

I would say, when you speak about an opinion, use
penser = to believe / croire = to think
we you're speaking about a belief, a faith...
croire=to believe / penser= to think


----------



## Trina

broglet said:


> They are not interchangeable in English: "I believe that God exists" is not at all the same as "I think God exists".  If you think God exists you can at the same time think he might not exist.  But if you believe that God exists you would not normally at the same time believe that he might not exist.  Which is quite different from believing that kiwi fruit come from China, which is perfectly compatible with believing they might not, although rather stronger than thinking they come from China.


 I think God exists.
I believe God exists.

Either way, it is an opinion only and doesn't mean God exists. (In this way, they are interchangeable) I am not arguing the nuances of the meanings, just their use.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that to believe means the same thing as I think.

And actually I was asking about penser and croire.
A teacher I once had, said not to use "penser" where we would use " I think that..." She said to use "croire" instead as "penser" was used more to do with the process of thinking than giving an opinion. This is what I was hoping a native-French speaker could confirm or not.


----------



## 8jatpc

For me, in usual sentences (I mean: not dealing with religion or philosophy...this kind of stuff where nuances in words are important to express a belief or an opinion):
- "croire" implies that the subject of the verb is not certain about what he (or she) says. E.g. "Je crois que tu as juste" -->"I think you're right (but I'm not certain of it)"
-"penser" implies more certainty. E.g. "Je pense que tu as juste" --> "I think you're right (and I'm quite sure of it)"

Hope it helps


----------



## broglet

[…] Be that as it may, these words are used differently.  A religious person would be unlikey to say, "I think God exists" even though a friend of his might correctly say, "He thinks God exists".   Well I believe this is so, anyway.  What do you think?


----------



## Trina

8jatpc said:


> For me, in usual sentences [...]
> - "croire" implies that the subject of the verb is not certain about what he (or she) says. E.g. "Je crois que tu as juste" -->"I think you're right (but I'm not certain of it)"
> -"penser" implies more certainty. E.g. "Je pense que tu as juste" --> "I think you're right (and I'm quite sure of it)"


Merci, 8jatpc, I believe (penser) it does.(pretty certain) So judging by your answer, my teacher (not a native French speaker) was almost right.

I think that ... (in English is not very certain) and therefore croire is used.
If I were to say " I think that it may rain tomorrow", I would use croire. (uncertain)
If I were to say "I believe the world is round and that the planets orbit around the sun", I would use "penser". (pretty certain - I hope we don't discover that they all revolve around Pluto  )
Is this correct?


----------



## Cath.S.

I think it may rain = je crois / je pense qu'il va pleuvoir (je ne suis pas sûr(e) mais à mon avis, il va pleuvoir.

I believe the world is round = je crois que la terre est ronde. Pour moi, la terre est ronde. Je suis persuadé(e) que la terre est ronde. 

En réalité, on dirait_ je sais que la terre est ronde_. Même si ce n'est pas entièrement vrai.  

je pense que la terre est ronde => I'm not 100% sure. Il y a une chance pour que ce ne soit pas vrai. 

In fact croire can indicate either a mild doubt or unwavering certitude, only the context can help you tell for sure.


----------



## piloulac

Si je puis me permettre :
Marie *croit* que c'est facile d'aimer, de trouver un ami, d'obliger qqn, que les poules auront des dents .... etc
Marie prête foi en des concepts idéalisés.

Marie *pense* qu'il est facile de rédiger son compte rendu.
Marie exerce son *jugement* en fonction de son expérience sensible.


*Marie croit que Dieu existe.*
C'est sa croyance. Le narrateur implicitement fait référence à un certain type de comportement, d'affect lié à un Dieu idéalisé.

*Marie pense que Dieu existe.*
C'est le résultat d'une expérience sensible. Le narrateur place Marie dans une distanciation par rapport à un Dieu objectivé. Le comportement religieux n'est nullement inféré.


----------



## Airblaster

Please correct me, im not sure about this french sentence...

Il a cru « Est-ce pour le meilleur?»

He thought, "Is this for the best?"


----------



## Ploupinet

"He thought": "Il a pensé" here!


----------



## namyls

"croire" isn't very good in this sentence. It would mean that he believed it more than that he wondered.

I would say _"Il pensa : 'Est-ce pour le meilleur ?'"_ instead.
Could also be _"Il se demanda :"_ (he wondered).


----------



## riot_cheese

If I wanted to say something like "She thinks she is perfect", would I use *croire* or *penser*?


----------



## SwissPete

I would go with *croire*.
Elle se croit parfaite.


----------



## riot_cheese

But _could_ I use penser as well?


----------



## ANewLevel

Croire means she definitely think she is perfect.
Penser, in this sentence, means she might be wrong, but she don't know it.
So you can use both, but... _c'est tendencieux_.


----------



## SwissPete

Yes, but I would prefer *croire*.


----------



## velt

Also, if you were to say "Elle se croit parfaite", you would imply you think otherwise, which is not granted if you use penser.


----------



## Moon Palace

I believe  the difference lies with the meaning of these two verbs: 'penser' like 'think' refers to rational thinking, the brain one , whereas 'croire' hints at a creed, like a political or a religious creed, so that it does not rely on 'scientific evidence'. So that 'elle croit'... means she believes so, but there is no evidence to back this belief, whereas 'elle pense' is a bit more grounded in the reality. Yet the fact somebody else says so, in both cases it is debatable because the locutor doesn't obviously side with her on that point. 
Hope it helps


----------



## Tranquillity

I thought "croire" meant believing and "penser" meant thinking... Eeshk ! that sucks !! Purée!


----------



## Sept2.0

There are some contexts where we are not free to choose.
Je crois qu'il n'est pas possible de remplacer "penser" par "croire" dans "Qu'est-ce que tu en pense?"
= I don't really think it's possible to say "Qu'est-ce que tu en crois?" instead of "Qu'est-ce que tu en *pense*?" (meaning "What do you think about it?")
More examples :
Il se *croit* tout permis / meilleur que les autres.
Je *crois* rêver = I'm surprised
People are more likely to say: je *pense* le contraire / la même chose (que toi) = je ne suis pas / je suis d'accord
Il *pense* du mal de cet homme.
i.e. penser + a noun


----------

