# Languages in Mosque



## panjabigator

When Muslims go to Mosque, I assume all prayer is done in Arabic.  But since the community is so big, what other languages are used?  I hope this makes sense...


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## barkley04

It is a good question. maybe in the friday prayer, the speech could be spoken in the native language but the qu'raan must be read in arabic eventhough it is already translated in many many languages.


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## cuchuflete

barkley04 said:
			
		

> It is a good question. maybe in the friday prayer, the speech could be spoken in the native language but the qu'raan *must be read in arabic *eventhough it is already translated in many many languages.



Why *must be*?  Does the qu'raan itself demand this, or is it a cultural custom that has become closely associated with the religion itself?


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## barkley04

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Why *must be*?  Does the qu'raan itself demand this, or is it a cultural custom that has become closely associated with the religion itself?


may be *must be *is quite strong. let's say quraan ought to be read in arabic.


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## linguist786

*cuchuflete* - I actually asked that question to my imaan, and he said that the Arabic language is a language that just cannot be matched with any other language, in terms of "spirituality" - Arabic affects the heart more than any other language, even if you do not understand it all. I totally believe him - I find that is the case myself. 

Back to the topic though (which is very interesting by the way!! - made me think about the whole thing!). This is what I have to say about it:

In my area, there live mostly Gujarati people. In our local mosque, the notices are (almost) always written in Gujarati and English (sometimes they are just written in Gujarati, but to be honest, they usually only concern people who _can_ read Gujarati! - ie, men, not youngsters/youth. But luckily, I can read them since I can read Gujarati - and I'm the only youngster in my area who can! But I guess that's only because I am interested in languages as you know). On the other hand, announcements and speeches (we call them "bayaans" - lol, word of Arabic origin with an English plural!  - it should actually be "bayaanaat"!) are always given in Urdu. Sometimes, when it's important that the youth also understand, it is also said in English.

The languages _spoken_ (I mean announcements and stuff..) in a mosque (in Britain anyway..) are always Urdu and sometimes English (I may be wrong here, but trust me, I have been to a lot of mosques lol!!). However, the languages written in a mosque (ie - notices) are very often in the language of the people that live there, as well as English. I remember I went to a mosque in London last Summer, and the notices were all written in Bengali (+ English) since it was a Bengali area.

I think in Islam, Urdu is seen as a very "polite" and "clean" language. I certainly view it that way.


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## vince

I heard that the Quran is only sacred and infallible when expressed in the language in which it was revealed to Mohammed. I also heard that translations are to be treated as any other book, i.e. the faithful don't have to ritually cleanse themselves before reading it. There is a logical reason behind this: it avoids all the debates about interpretations due to incorrect translation that plague the Christian Bible. Only the Arabic version is the pure version transmitted from God.

E.g. if a verse in the Bible was originally written as "The weak-spirited will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", but someone reads it out loud in a language where "weak-spirited" is the same word as "homosexual", then people get the wrong impression when they recite it.

I think that would be why people from all over the world speaking all different languages (Urdu, Mandarin, Indonesian Bahasa, Bulgarian, etc) all recite verses in Arabic. That is, if they are required to.


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## linguist786

vince said:
			
		

> I heard that the Quran is only sacred and infallible when expressed in the language in which it was revealed to Mohammed. I also heard that translations are to be treated as any other book, i.e. the faithful don't have to ritually cleanse themselves before reading it. There is a logical reason behind this: it avoids all the debates about interpretations due to incorrect translation that plague the Christian Bible. Only the Arabic version is the pure version transmitted from God.
> 
> E.g. if a verse in the Bible was originally written as "The weak-spirited will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", but someone reads it out loud in a language where "weak-spirited" is the same word as "homosexual", then people get the wrong impression when they recite it.
> 
> I think that would be why people from all over the world speaking all different languages (Urdu, Mandarin, Indonesian Bahasa, Bulgarian, etc) all recite verses in Arabic. That is, if they are required to.


Wow.. you're not even a Muslim and you gave a great response  Well done!! 
The way you've put it is perfect I think.


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## vince

haha thanks, that's stuff I read about, but what still confuses me is how people who don't know Arabic go about worshipping in a mosque or doing their daily salat's. Does the imam say the verses in Arabic then repeats a translation to everyone?


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## Brioche

vince said:
			
		

> haha thanks, that's stuff I read about, but what still confuses me is how people who don't know Arabic go about worshipping in a mosque or doing their daily salat's. Does the imam say the verses in Arabic then repeats a translation to everyone?


 
It's not just Muslims who pray in a different language.

Until the late 1960s the principal worship of the Catholic Church, the Mass, was in Latin. The whole service was in Latin. 
The Latin Mass had two scripture readings, which change each day, called the Epistle and the Gospel. Sometimes the priest would re-read these in the local language before giving the sermon. But none of the other parts were translated.

About one third of the Mass was spoken in a very low voice, and the congregation could not hear, even if they could understand.

The Catholic Church also had a blessing ceremony called Benediction. Again all the prayers were in Latin. Many people knew the prayers, the hymns and the responses in Latin, for both the Mass and Benediction, but did not have any idea of what they were saying.


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## panjabigator

How about Masjid's that have many different ethnicities?  Is english the main medium then?  How about in the US?


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## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> Only the Arabic version is the pure version transmitted from God.



This is _truly_ bigotted nonsense.



> E.g. if a verse in the Bible was originally written as "The weak-spirited will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven", but someone reads it out loud in a language where "weak-spirited" is the same word as "homosexual", then people get the wrong impression when they recite it.



Do Muslim scholars think so little of their own abilities to understand foreign languages that they could not use the correct foreign word for "weak-spirited" instead of the direct translation?
Do they really think that Arabic has concepts which other languages fail to grasp and have no words for?


This sort of thinking is what gives religious people a bad name. It is racist and discriminatory.
Not only must their Holy Book be "interpreted" by their clerics for the enlightenment of the laity, but to truly understand it it must be read only in the original language - and I assume that no non-native can ever truly grasp a language to which they might come at, picking an age randomly , the age of 55?


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## barkley04

maxiogee said:
			
		

> This is _truly_ bigotted nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> Do Muslim scholars think so little of their own abilities to understand foreign languages that they could not use the correct foreign word for "weak-spirited" instead of the direct translation?
> Do they really think that Arabic has concepts which other languages fail to grasp and have no words for?
> 
> 
> This sort of thinking is what gives religious people a bad name. It is racist and discriminatory.
> Not only must their Holy Book be "interpreted" by their clerics for the enlightenment of the laity, but to truly understand it it must be read only in the original language - and I assume that no non-native can ever truly grasp a language to which they might come at, picking an age randomly , the age of 55?


well, I think the terms you usedare a little bit harsh and offensive. The holy qur'aan must be read in arabic and that's for sure and i am pretty sure about it and I asked authoritative people who ensured me so whereas in the areas where arabic is not spoken the speech of the jumaa prayers can be performed in the native language. In turkey for example, Qur'aan is read in arabic eventhough their native language is turkish.


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## maxiogee

barkley04 said:
			
		

> well, I think the terms you usedare a little bit harsh and offensive. The holy qur'aan must be read in arabic and that's for sure and i am pretty sure about it and I asked authoritative people who ensured me so whereas in the areas where arabic is not spoken the speech of the jumaa prayers can be performed in the native language. In turkey for example, Qur'aan is read in arabic eventhough their native language is turkish.



 
What is the point of reading something to people who cannot understand it?


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## barkley04

maxiogee said:
			
		

> What is the point of reading something to people who cannot understand it?


I am sorry but people shall make an effort to understand the holy qur'aan if they want so..


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## cherine

I'm not the best entitled person to answer the question of this thread, as I already live in an Arabic speaking country, so this has never been an issue here. Well not directly, because we sometimes have another type of language issue (the "level" of language), but this is not the topic here 


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> What is the point of reading something to people who cannot understand it?


I imagine it's hard to conceive for a person who doesn't speak Arabic, but Qur'an in Arabic "feels" so different than in any other language, no matter how good the translation is. Besides, Qur'an is read in Arabic as a part of the prayers (Salat), but the serom itself (bayaan, or Khutba in Arabic) is supposed to be given in a language understood by the "audience". It's very stupid to speak Arabic to people who don't know it.

What I know about English and Spanish islamic communities in the States, is that they listen to the sermons in their language.


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## Ana Raquel

linguist786 said:
			
		

> - I actually asked that question to my imaan, and he said that the Arabic language is a language that just cannot be matched with any other language, in terms of "spirituality" - Arabic affects the heart more than any other language, even if you do not understand it all. I totally believe him - I find that is the case myself.
> .


 
God has created all humans and all languages, and he doesn't play favoritisms with His creation. 

How does your imaan know that thing he affirmed? has he studied and compared all languages? or, form which source did he take that?


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## cherine

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> How does your imaan know that thing he affirmed? has he studied and compared all languages? or, form which source did he take that?


I think that this ima*m* (iman is the Arabic word for faith) wanted to say what I just said myself (though in a different way) about the Qur'an *feeling* different in Arabic.
Out of my personal experience with the Text in Arabic and in French, it's true that there are many words I don't understand in the Arabic text, but they still "sound" and "feel" so different from their meaning (which may be a lot clearer to me) in French.
Maybe if you listen to the Qur'an recited in Arabic, you could understand what I say (and maybe not  ) but it's something that I can't really explain, it could have to do with the musicality of the text (again, I don't know).


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## Ana Raquel

I understand you, Cherine, you are speaking about feelings, and feelings are subjective, emotional state, the sound of the Arabic plus your belief creates an atmosphere and you experiment a physical sensation. I understand you completely. This is very different from what the Linguist786's imam affirmed 



			
				cherine said:
			
		

> I think that this ima*m* (iman is the Arabic word for faith) wanted to say what I just said myself (though in a different way) about the Qur'an *feeling* different in Arabic.
> Out of my personal experience with the Text in Arabic and in French, it's true that there are many words I don't understand in the Arabic text, but they still "sound" and "feel" so different from their meaning (which may be a lot clearer to me) in French.
> Maybe if you listen to the Qur'an recited in Arabic, you could understand what I say (and maybe not  ) but it's something that I can't really explain, it could have to do with the musicality of the text (again, I don't know).


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## cherine

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> I understand you, Cherine, you are speaking about feelings, and feelings are subjective, emotional state, the sound of the Arabic plus your belief creates an atmosphere and you experiment a physical sensation. I understand you completely. This is very different from what the Linguist786's imam affirmed


Thank you Ana... but : I didn't say anything about "physical" sensation. Maybe my using the word "feel" led to this [mis]understanding.
Also the Imam's words where about touching "the heart". So it's all more of a spiritual thing. Prayer is a spiritual thing.

Sermon is not.
Sermon is supposed to be about teaching people, and to teach you need to be understood, so they (the sermons) need to be given in a language that the listeners will/would understand.
But praying (salat) is something completly spiritual, and we do it as it was taught by the Prophet. There's another kind of prayers in Islam (Du'aa دعاء) which doesn't need to follow fixed rules nor be said in Arabic, you can/should say it in your own language, because it's more of "asking" God for something. While the Salt الصلاة is a daily ritual, which is supposed to be a symbol of many things (faith in God, obediance to Him....)


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## Ana Raquel

_Cherine wrote: Thank you Ana... but : I didn't say anything about "physical" sensation. Maybe my using the word "feel" led to this [mis]understanding._ 
Yes, feel implies perceive through the senses or emotion, or sensation

_Also the Imam's words where about touching "the heart". So it's all more of a spiritual thing. Prayer is a spiritual thing._ 
Yes, but the imam said no language affects the heart as Arabic, that other languages cannot macht Arabic, he places Arabic above other languages in regards to spirituality. It is so arrogant affirmation...

_Sermon is not._
_Sermon is supposed to be about teaching people, and to teach you need to be understood, so they (the sermons) need to be given in a language that the listeners will/would understand._
I agree 100%

_But praying (salat) is something completly spiritual, and we do it as it was taught by the Prophet. There's another kind of prayers in Islam (Du'aa دعاء) which doesn't need to follow fixed rules nor be said in Arabic, you can/should say it in your own language, because it's more of "asking" God for something. While the Salt الصلاة is a daily ritual, which is supposed to be a symbol of many things (faith in God, obediance to Him....)_
Yes, it is like meditation or reciting and repeating specific things in other beliefs, meditation, focusing, breathing and specific movements to help the focus. Sikhs, Buddists, Jains, even no followers of any religion many do that, just the name differs. The aim is not be is a state of receptiveness that leads to better behaviour.


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## papillon

Hello everyone.
As an outsider, what I've gathered is that Arabic plays a special role in the Muslim worship. I would imagine, in addition to the special musicality, Muslims feel a special connection to the language exactly because it was spoken by the Prophet.

This lively debate is very similar to a debate that is taking place in the Catholic comminity on the use of Latin (OK, maybe not today, but say 50-60 yrs ago). In an almost complete analogy, the service was done in Latin, although the sermon could have been in "vernacular", i.e. local language. The difference is that after the Second Vatican Council, the use of Latin became optional. 
Can anyone foresee something like that for the Muslim worship?

Ah, just noticed an earlier post by Brioche on the same topic. Sorry for the redundancy!


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## Outsider

maxiogee said:
			
		

> vince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only the Arabic version is the pure version transmitted from God.
> 
> 
> 
> This is _truly_ bigotted nonsense.
Click to expand...

I understood Vince's sentence as meaning, not that Arabic is a "superior" language, but that only the original version of the Quran (which happens to be written in Arabic) is completely trustworthy. 
Also, from comments made here in the forum, the verses of the Quran have a kind of musicality which would inevitably be lost in a translation.


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## linguist786

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Yes, but the imam said no language affects the heart as Arabic, that other languages cannot macht Arabic, he places Arabic above other languages in regards to spirituality. It is so arrogant affirmation...


Arrogant?? Why is that statement "arrogant"?


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## GenJen54

Outsider said:
			
		

> I understood Vince's sentence as meaning, not that Arabic is a "superior" language, but that only the original version of the Quran (which happens to be written in Arabic) is completely trustworthy.
> Also, from comments made here in the forum, the verses of the Quran have a kind of musicality which would inevitably be lost in a translation.


I had a similar interpretation. 

Let's take away the spiritual aspect for a moment. Can you honestly argue that any piece of literature sounds better in a language other than which it was written? If that is the case, then why bother learning other languages and experiencing literature in those languages?  One reason I struggle along in Spanish and French is because I love the way their literature sounds and reads in those languages.  No English translation can do them justice.

In some languages, there are words whose exact meanings and concepts _cannot_ be fully-translated into other languages, because those words simply don't exist in the target language.  German is a notable example of this. 

Many people learn Arabic with the sole purpose of being able to better connect with the Qu'ran.

One of the fallacies of Christianity (as has already been pointed out), is that the Bible is continuously under scrutiny because of different interpretations in translation. Imagine if it were still written (and published) in Aramaeic - its original language. Would the verses be better understood? Very likely.

Of course, one can argue the flip side of that, too. Translation allows Christians to look at their text critically, and perhaps evolve religiously in a way that Islam does not allow because one is always closer to _spiritual _intent with language.

Neither way is perfect.


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## cherine

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Of course, one can argue the flip side of that, too. Translation allows Christians to look at their text critically, and perhaps evolve religiously in a way that Islam does not allow because *one is always closer to spiritual intent with language.*


Excuse me GenJen, but I don't understand very much the highlighted part  
But I'd like to say that Islam does in fact ask the believer to examin and think for themselves. It's not a religion that advocates blind-obedience (whatever many people, including some muslims, may say). We can draw a long list of Qur'anic verses asking people to *think* and to learn, it's the advantage of humankind over the other creatures of God. If we let go of this advantage, or stop using it then we are -in a way- sinners.
At least this is how I interpret this religion.


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## GenJen54

Hi Cherine,

What I meant is that there is less room for critical judgment when reading something in an original language.  When texts - even holy texts - have been subject to translation, one has more room to use "poor translation" as an excuse for misinterpretation.


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## SofiaB

Many religions have or have had liturgical languages. Brioche mentioned the Catholics and Latin. The Jews use Hebrew, many Hassidim (even in Israel) will not use Hebrew in every day conversation since it should be reserved for religion. Many Arab Christians read the bible in Arabic even if they are in non-Arabic countries. The Amish and some Mennonites use German in English and Spanish speaking countries. The Arabic of the Quraan is not the spoken Arabic of any Arabic country so it is even different for Arabic countries, the best part is, in most countries you have freedom of religion so you can choose to follow it or not. So what is the problem? It would only be a concern for me if one does not have a choice.


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## Ana Raquel

linguist786 said:
			
		

> Arrogant?? Why is that statement &quot;arrogant&quot;?


revise, please:

_...cannot be matched with any other language in terms of spirituality_
_...more than any other language..._

your imam didn't say in terms of Quran, but generalising on spirituality, placing Arabic as superior in terms of spirituality among the rest of languages, about 6.700 in the world.

Linguist, if you skipped my post:



			
				Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> God has created all humans and all languages, and he doesn't play favoritisms with His creation.
> 
> How does your imaan know that thing he affirmed? has he studied and compared all languages? or, form which source did he take that?


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## papillon

SofiaB said:
			
		

> the best part is, in most countries you have freedom of religion so you can choose to follow it or not. So what is the problem? It would only be a concern for me if one does not have a choice.


SofiaB, the freedom of religion seems a bit off topic here. And there is no problem. The gist of the discussion seems to be the reasons for using Arabic in the Mosque, as well as pros and cons of this situation.

If I can sum it up, here goes:
Benefits of using Arabic: 1. Original text of the Qu'ran is in Arabic, so something would be inevitably lost in translation 2. Arabic has a special sound/musicality unmatched by any other language 3. Arabic can be used as a unifying language for Muslims prayers throughout the world.

Drawbacks of using Arabic -- as argued by several people here is this:
Conducting a service in a foreign language denies people the ability to understand the Holy text. For an uneducated person in a no-arabic country learning arabic isn't as easy as for some of us here...

For Vatican, the last argument was so convincing that they've moved away from the Latin-only formula. In the Mislim world, that's not the case..


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## cirrus

I live an area of London which is very close to having a Muslim majority. From what people tell me, the language of prayer is Arabic across the board. In terms of the sermon (or whatever the right term would be) it is in the language most likely to be understood by the majority there.  If the people there are mostly from N India or Pakistan it would be Urdu, from Bangladesh Bengali, Somalia, Somali.  What I don't know is about Muslims from W Africa - any Nigerians here who can pour light onto this.  

After the 7/7 attacks in London there was talk of making the language of services at mosques English so that it would be obvious to outsiders whether or not a radical message was being given: Many imans still don't speak English well.  

Most Muslim children here attend madrassas - religious schools and spend considerable amounts of time learning read classical Arabic and chant the Q'uran.  However very few actually understand what they are saying unless they come from an Arabic background.  As a linguist this has always struck me as a real shame though I suppose it mirrors the situation of many Catholics pre Vatican 2 or Jews who haven't lived in Israel.


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## maxiogee

cirrus said:
			
		

> After the 7/7 attacks in London there was talk of making the language of services at mosques English so that it would be obvious to outsiders whether or not a radical message was being given: Many imans still don't speak English well.



Are mosques "open" to outsiders? 
How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?


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## tigretoro

One has to feel the verse to understand it and then he can transmit _transmitir_ it through words,mathematics ,symbols,eye contact or feelings or all combined etc (human makes the universe multi-dimensional)

words are not important..i feel,,

Mod Edit:  Please clarify thoughts and language.


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## cirrus

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Are mosques "open" to outsiders?
> How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?



I don't think it was wildly well thought through as a measure.  One of the issues is that UK imans tend not to be fluent in English and as a result have less idea of what is happening in wider society.  Moslems are still perceived as somehow being "other".  The increasing use of modest dress for women and girls with naqabs or burkas has also fuelled this. 

With my work hat on I have been working with local mosques around child protection - some teachers in medrassas were using physical punishment unaware that this is against the law so I can talk about how certain mosques are starting to reach out and reflect wider societal values.


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## tigretoro

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Are mosques "open" to outsiders?
> How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?


 
well in my country,there is a sign outside the mosque whic says---non muslims are not allowed.


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## barkley04

non muslims can go into mosks but not into the spaces provided for prayers.


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## tigretoro

why does one go to a mosque------to pray,with due respects
i have sneaked in to offer my prayerswhen i was a child and i am sure it made god happier ,la ilahillalahmohamedrasoolalah,alahoakhber


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## GenJen54

> *W*hy does one go to a mosque*? T*o pray,with due respects*.*
> *I* have sneaked in to offer my prayers when *i *was a child and *i *am sure it made *G*od *ALLAH* happier, _la ilahillalahmohamedrasoolalah,alahoakhber - could you please explain this?_


Please see our rule # 22:





> Members must do their best to write using standard language forms.



Tiger,

Further explanation is needed.   We understand you may have practiced this as a child.  Please be advised, this may be offsensive to some of our Muslim forer@s who may see this as disrespectful towards their religion. 

Please also stick to the topic of the thread, which is about Muslim prayers being recited in Arabic.

Thank you. 

GenJen54
Moderator


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## linguist786

Where has this conversation come to? What is everyone saying? I don't get it..
People are talking about alsorts of things.


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## GenJen54

> Where has this conversation come to? What is everyone saying? I don't get it..
> People are talking about alsorts of things.


The topic of this thread is about the use of Arabic as the only language with which to recite Muslim prayers. 

Some people are discussing what some mosques are doing to help people within their bretheren and without, to better "understand" their ways.

Some people are discussing the need for Islamic prayers to remain in Arabic because it is the language in which the Qu'ran was written, and brings one "spiritually closer" to what was intended in these words.

Others argue that this is disadvantageous because it is hard to be faithful in one's prayers if one does not understand the language in which they were written. In other words, how can you "believe" in something, if you don't understand it?

Yet others are taking a completely different approach in saying that words are not necessary in conveying the message to {deity of your choice}. It is one's feelings, one's actions, and the communication of one's "soul" to others and to {deity of your choice} which is the most important. 

They are all different approaches to the same topic.

*Remember,* this is a discussion forum, which is open to persons of all opinions.  This is necessary to facilitate cultural understanding among all of our members.  If everyone were in agreement, there would be no discussion, simply a "list" of the same opinion.


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## panjabigator

Linguist, you said something earlier I wanted to find out more about.  So in your masjid (mosque) everything is written in Gujarati, but spoken in Urdu (aside from salaat which would be in Arabic).


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## tigretoro

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Please see our rule # 22:
> 
> Tiger,
> 
> Further explanation is needed. We understand you may have practiced this as a child. Please be advised, this may be offsensive to some of our Muslim forer@s who may see this as disrespectful towards their religion.
> 
> Please also stick to the topic of the thread, which is about Muslim prayers being recited in Arabic.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> GenJen54
> Moderator


I entered the mosque not to offend any body ,
i was curious so i entered 

i used to pray in the four diffrent directions n.w.e.south in my bunk (boarding school)before sleeping .one for muslim one for cristian one for hindu and one for sikh.

allah, god ,bhagwan ,and all the names are one,for me now,
and maybe after i did this and more experiments i arrived to the conclusion of oneness of god ,all religions have the same destination but humans choose diffrent paths.

when i used to feel afraid of ghosts i used to recite the verse taught to me by my muslim friend(it is a shame that i have to quote my best friend as muslim friend)
ok,the verse which i wrote means---god is one and his messenger is profit mohammed,he is one and he is the greatest there is no comparison or equal to him ,profet mohamed is the messenger of god.

i didnt mean to offend any one

india is the worlds biggest democracy ,it s secular base is the heart of its existance.
iam sorry if i caused confusion,iam not good with punctuation i know,i will learn with you folks,

so i hope i made some sense gensen54.
khuda hafis.

The topic muslim prayer in arabic is not fair i think........it attacks the uniqueness of islam---because in all other religions which are older(slight exception to sikhism which is not very old)prayers are offered in diffrent languages-----i mean tamil hindi gujrati etc go to hindu temples......(but the pundit offer the main prayers in sanskrit )same goes for christians spanish french italian english ----rosemaria---rosemary---i dont know if they use latin in the main prayers.
actually i feel to discuss topics like religion one has to be open and let the xxxxx take control. -without breaking the sacred human bond,which might lead to one prayer for all.and then one pyayer for one god of all
regards

Offensive word deleted.


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## tigretoro

Quote:
Originally Posted by *cirrus*
_After the 7/7 attacks in London there was talk of making the language of services at mosques English so that it would be obvious to outsiders whether or not a radical message was being given: Many imans still don't speak English well. _



*Are mosques "open" to outsiders? -----------------------------tigretoro started from here.......gensen54*
*How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?*


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## panjabigator

> *How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?*



I think that many people may have picked up negative connotations with Muslims and any language that sounds remotely like Arabic (they are labeling!), so perhaps if they were to walk into a mosque and hear any Arabic prayer or sermon, they'd assume that it was something negative.  So switching to using English allows everyone to hear and takes out a lot of the mystery.


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## tigretoro

Guilt is in the distrustful, and that's his problem. So, to solve it he should learn Arabic.


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## GenJen54

tigretoro said:
			
		

> Guilt is in the distrustful, and that's his problem. So, to solve it he should learn Arabic.


While I agree with this in principal, do you not think this in some ways impractical?

I respect the rights of others to use their Holy Book in a language they feel best expresses the lessons as taught in that book.  But when tens of thousands of followers of that religion do not even understand the language in which that book is written, is this not somehow problematic?


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## maxiogee

cirrus said:
			
		

> After the 7/7 attacks in London there was talk of making the language of services at mosques English so that it would be obvious to outsiders whether or not a radical message was being given: Many imans still don't speak English well.





			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Are mosques "open" to outsiders?
> How would preaching in English affect the distrustful?





			
				tigretoro said:
			
		

> Guilt is in the distrustful, and that's his problem. So, to solve it he should learn Arabic.



The problem is in Islam being possibly misunderstood by non-Arabic speakers in non-Arabic-speaking countries.
If Islam is to claim that it is misunderstood, does it have a duty to ensure that those who misunderstand it can understand it - by preaching (not praying) in the local language?
To arrive in a new country and not speak the local language is anyone's privilege in many countries. But to claim that one is misunderstood whilst doing so is to be ridiculous.

Can you imagine what would have happened if, in the course of the IRA's bombing attacks in England, Irish tourists were to walk around any of the big British cities speaking only in Irish? 
Put it this way, I wouldn't have done it!


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## cherine

Guys, if Islam was to be "preached" in Arabic *only*, there wouldn't have been those numerous books about it (I speak of those written by muslims to explain it, not those about it as in "criticise it") in almost all the spoken languages of the world, nor would there been all those translations of the Qur'an itself.

I still believe that the sermons in mosques (khotba) *must* be said in a language understood by the people, otherwise it would be nonsense and it would loose its main purpose : teaching/preaching.....
As for prayers, it's about the faithful in every single corner of the world praying toward the same "kibla" (the place where you direct yourself) which is the Ka'ba in Mekka, and in the same language : Arabic. This is a sort of unifying traits of the "umma" (the [believers'] community). But as the umma itself is diverse; people from everywhere speaking different languages and having different interests, the khotba must be directed to each "smaller community" according to its daily and religious needs, because khotba is not only about religion, just as Islam is not only about rituals.


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## barkley04

tigretoro said:
			
		

> I entered the mosque not to offend any body ,
> i was curious so i entered
> 
> i used to pray in the four diffrent directions n.w.e.south in my bunk (boarding school)before sleeping .one for muslim one for cristian one for hindu and one for sikh.
> 
> allah, god ,bhagwan ,and all the names are one,for me now,
> and maybe after i did this and more experiments i arrived to the conclusion of oneness of god ,all religions have the same destination but humans choose diffrent paths.
> 
> when i used to feel afraid of ghosts i used to recite the verse taught to me by my muslim friend(it is a shame that i have to quote my best friend as muslim friend)
> ok,the verse which i wrote means---god is one and his messenger is profit mohammed,he is one and he is the greatest there is no comparison or equal to him ,profet mohamed is the messenger of god.
> 
> i didnt mean to offend any one
> 
> india is the worlds biggest democracy ,it s secular base is the heart of its existance.
> iam sorry if i caused confusion,iam not good with punctuation i know,i will learn with you folks,
> 
> so i hope i made some sense gensen54.
> khuda hafis.
> 
> The topic muslim prayer in arabic is not fair i think........it attacks the uniqueness of islam---because in all other religions which are older(slight exception to sikhism which is not very old)prayers are offered in diffrent languages-----i mean tamil hindi gujrati etc go to hindu temples......(but the pundit offer the main prayers in sanskrit )same goes for christians spanish french italian english ----rosemaria---rosemary---i dont know if they use latin in the main prayers.
> actually i feel to discuss topics like religion one has to be open and let the xxxxx take control. -without breaking the sacred human bond,which might lead to one prayer for all.and then one pyayer for one god of all
> regards
> 
> Offensive word deleted.


Allah and rabb are the arabic equivalents of god. 
allah=god


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## barkley04

Allah And God Are The Same.


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## cirrus

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I think that many people may have picked up negative connotations with Muslims and any language that sounds remotely like Arabic (they are labeling!), so perhaps if they were to walk into a mosque and hear any Arabic prayer or sermon, they'd assume that it was something negative.  So switching to using English allows everyone to hear and takes out a lot of the mystery.



You've hit the nail on the head Panjabigator.  The image of some imans is less than positive, particularly ones which aren't able to speak in English.  This marks them out from their congregation and raises age old suspicions. There are several communities of people who have been in the north of England for several generations and don't use English when they are in the streets.  

The fear of the other and a religion which many still aren't that familiar with was highlighted when the UK had its first suicide bombers last year.  Chances are with the anniversary of 7/7 coming up this theme will only get hotter over the next few days.


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## cirrus

tigretoro said:
			
		

> Guilt is in the distrustful, and that's his problem. So, to solve it he should learn Arabic.



I think you will find the issue is not about speaking Arabic - the vast majority of Muslims in the UK don't speak it even if they use it for prayers.  I imagine this would be the same for Muslims in India too. The services here are often held in the majority language of the congregation - for example Urdu, Bengali or Somali.


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## panjabigator

I have heard the Muslim Azzan (spelling correction please...can you post it in Arabic as well!) which is the Muslim call to prayer, and I have to say it was so beautiful sounding.  So I do understand when people say that the Arabic language evokes a different feeling then perhaps the vernacular would.  And as for people not understanding the actual prayer, well, let me give my two cents on that.  Sikh worship is conducted in Panjabi, and living in the diaspora, many second generation Sikhs do not understand much of what is said at temple...we may speak the language well with our family, but we do not know this type of religious vocabulary...somethings are only learned in India through purely exposure.  So throughout most of my life, I would just sit in temple (called a Gurudwara Sahib) staring at the clock because I didn't understand a damn word (well not that bad, but a word here and there).  What a waste of my time.  Since then, I have done my own research and learned a lot, and while I argue that my case is similar because I didnt take the time to learn the words earlier, at least in my case the language was the same.  But, I would argue that studying and learning/understanding the prayer in Arabic shouldn't be that difficult if you go to Mosque often.  You are bound to learn something through exposure, and the dedicated ones should study what they are listening to, otherwise what purpose are you serving?  What are you trying to prove...are you trying to prove something to yourself or impress others.  Because when Muslims pray they bow their head, it is said that _real_ religious ones develop a mark on their forhead.  Some idiots want to brag about this and they actually create a mark or exagerate it to seem even more pious, but religion should never be about image.


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## MarX

barkley04 said:


> may be *must be *is quite strong. let's say quraan ought to be read in arabic.


As far as I know, it's not a question of must or not, the real Qur'an _is _in Arabic only.

Back to the original question:
In the mosques in Indonesia, Indonesian is spoken in the preaching, although the _ustad_ loves to throw in Arabic words or sentences, which we Indonesians don't really understand.


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