# 2aHwarii أحوري



## Qcumber

Is the term 2aHwarii أَحْوَرِيٌّ white-skinned used about Europeans ?


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## Tajabone

Never heard of it before.

Are you indirectly referring to the word *حور* like in Hur el-'ayn ("Virgin of the Paradise" in late Quran semantics )?


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## Qcumber

Not at all. I just came across this term in Kazimirski's (1860); its gloss means "white-skinned (person)".


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## Tajabone

Still never heard of it in this context though it is known now that *حور*  is a proto-semitic word/root (also used in Syriac) meaning "white".


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## Qcumber

Thanks a lot, Tajabone. Is there a marked difference with 2abyaD
أبيض
?


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## Tajabone

Well, *أبيض* is more frequently used for the colour "white". Kazimirski's example sounds like an archaism to me.

 Mind you that *حور* (as a colour) is discussed by Christoph Luxenberg concerning the (enigmatic) Quranic expression *حور العين* !


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## Qcumber

I am not a Qur'ânic scholar, and don't know much Arabic, but, just looking at the phrase, I have the impression it's nuur al 3ain "light of the eye" miscopied from an early document in which letters had no dots. I suppose many people have already come up with this interpretation.


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## ayed

This word is not confined toa certain place .

*الحَوارِيُّ الناصح وأَصله الشيء الخالص، وكل شيء خَلَصَ لَوْنُه، فهو حَوارِيٌّ. والأَحْوَرِيُّ:الأَبيض الناعم*
*والأَحْوَرِيُّ: الأَبيض الناعم من أَهل القرى؛ *
From *Lisan al-'Arab(Arab's Tongue)*by Ibn mandhoor


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## Tajabone

Yes, I know this definition and I've checked it yesterday as well. Do you agree with me, Ayed, that 2aHwarii is very rarely used in classical Arabic nowadays (except some religious contexts) and certainly not as a word referring to "white-skinned"  as in "white man"?


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## Abu Bishr

Qcumber said:


> I am not a Qur'ânic scholar, and don't know much Arabic, but, just looking at the phrase, I have the impression it's nuur al 3ain "light of the eye" miscopied from an early document in which letters had no dots. I suppose many people have already come up with this interpretation.


 
I thought we were done with this issue. As far as I'm concerned this is pure guesswork. If we don't possess the adequate research tools to make a comprehensive study of the problem, then let us not make premature judgments on things that we have not adequately studied using the requisite tools. The phrase in the Quran or in Hadith does not occur in this way (i.e. muDaaf and muDaaf ilayh), rather it is more like a Sifah - mawSuuf construction: حُوْرٌ عِيْنٌ or الْحُوْر الْعِيْن . Now, if you consult the classical Arabic dictionaries and poetry on these two words then you will find a wealth of information. These two words are morphologically and semantically exactly like the more common سُوْدٌ and بِيْضٌ respectively, which are the plural forms of أَسْوَد - سَوْدَاء and أَبْيَض - بَيْضَاء . Thus, حور عين is the plural form of أَحْوَر - حَوْرَاء and أعْيَن - عيْناء . These patterns are common for colours and bodily beauty and defects. Thus, الحوراء refers to a woman with extremely black pupils surround by the extreme white of eyes, and is only used for women that are fair of complexion. العيناء refers to a woman with huge and wide eyes such that the blackness of the pupils is accentuated by the surrounding whiteness. If you are Arabic literate, then go to the famous Arabic lexicon "Lisan al-Arab" to name but one and see all the information on these two words.

Finally, the Arabs were the most competent to read the Quran, which they not only read but also memorized. Different ways of reading the text were all meticulously recorded in numerous volums, and not once did I come accross a reading like نور العين . By the way in one place in the Quran that I know the word حور is used by itself and is then qualified by مقصورات في الخيام (which means to be confined in tents). Now if it was نور which is masculine then why follow it with a feminine plural, and what would "light confined to tents" mean in the context concerned.

I think it is unfair when such a wealth of literature exists on a particular topic to totally ignore in favour of conjecture to put it mildy.

In Arabic there is a saying that derives from logic: الحكم على شيء فرع عن تصوره (Passing judgment on something is dependent on having a proper conception thereof).

I'm sorry if I came accross too strongly in my post, if anything then my criticism is directed at the methodology rather than the person.


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## Tajabone

Abu Bishr,

I'm sure no one wanted to hurt your beliefs as I can sense you were a bit offended.

The idea was to find a wider context for the word given by Qcumber. It happened that this particular word has been discussed in the field of Arabic philology showing something that even the ressources you alluded to as "authoritative" have forgotten or neglected.

In fact, many "Arabic" words used to have a Syriac-Aramaic semantics. And this essential fact has been half-forgotten by the post-Quranic societies which tended to be less and less Arabic (due to conquests).

In a scientific method, we call this "comparatism" (through diachronic semantics) and I'm afraid that the contrary could easily lead to "articles of faith". 

Anyway. To get back to our point: if you are aware of any contemporary or past usage of أَحْوَرِيّ as "White-skinned" man or for a colour used for the description of objects, let us know.

Many thanks !


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## ayed

Tajabone said:


> Yes, I know this definition and I've checked it yesterday as well. Do you agree with me, Ayed, that 2aHwarii is very rarely used in classical Arabic nowadays (except some religious contexts) and certainly not as a word referring to "white-skinned" as in "white man"?


I do agree with , Tajabone.
Pepople say*أبيض*   .It is not used nowadays.


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## Qcumber

Abu Bishr said:


> In Arabic there is a saying that derives from logic: الحكم على شيء فرع عن تصوره (Passing judgment on something is dependent on having a proper conception thereof).


Abu Bishr, don't expect me to enter a bout over what is or is not in the Qur'ân, and how its content should be understood.
No, I'm not an Arabic scholar, and you know it since you quote my post, so your rhetorical question is pointless.
Thank you all the same for your explanation.

Actually I started this thread because I had a file on adjectives of colour in Arabic, so as I came across this new one, I added it to my list and started wondering why Arabic had two adjectives for "white". That's all.


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## cherine

Qcumber said:


> Actually I started this thread because I had a file on adjectives of colour in Arabic, so as I came across this new one, I added it to my list and started wondering why Arabic had two adjectives for "white". That's all.


Hello Qcumber,
Sorry that your simple question evolved into the discussion of a more complicated one.

So, to get back to your question:
No, the word a7wari is not used as synonym for white. Even if it's a correct Arabic word (as shown by the dictionaries) it still isn't used in daily life by Arabic speakers. We simply use abyaD أبيض .
As for your second question: "Why Arabic has two adjectives for [any colour] ?" 
My answer -according to few paragraphs I read many years ago in a book about semantics- is that the two (or more) adjectives have different meanings, even if they become synonym in daily usages.

So to take abyaD and a7war, the difference lies in the connotation of a7war, that is: extreme or pure whitness in contrast with dark black.
While "white" is simply that: white.

Same for asmar ad aswad. Many people use them as synonyms meaning black. While "asmar" means a redish black.

And maybe there are other similar examples.

I hope I could give an answer to your question.


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## Qcumber

cherine said:


> Same for asmar ad aswad. Many people use them as synonyms meaning black. While "asmar" means a redish black.


Hello, Cherine,
Yes, the parallelism with "black" is illuminating.
Incidentally I started a thread in the "other languages" section asking whether there existed languages that had two terms for "white".


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## ayed

Qcumber said:


> wondering why Arabic had two adjectives for "white". That's all.


Here are more Arabic adjectves:
*رجل* *أمهق* as white as gypsum
*رجل* *أزهر* as white as moonlight
Source:
*Lisan al-'Arab*
*غ*
*شاب غرانق/غرنوق*  a long white man


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## Tajabone

Thank you again, Ayed, for your valuable posts.

 It seems that the first word is closer to "albino". Am I wrong ? (I didn't check yet).


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## ayed

It could be. 
=========
Najdi Badawi often use some of these adjectives .For examples:
*لبن ناصح
رجل كأنه غرنوق *because of being very white
*رجل أزهر*


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## Abu Bishr

I found the following in Lane's Lexicon (of Classical Arabic) of which there is also an online version:

"أحوريّ A man (TA) _white,_ or _fair_, (S,K,) _of the people of the towns or villages_. (TA.) [See also حَوَاريّ ; of which the fem. is applied in like manner to a woman.] (Vol. 1 p. 666).

"TA" stands for the famous Taj al-'Aruus which is a commentary on al-Qaamuus al-muHiiT.
"S" stands for al-SaHiiH and "K" for al-Kaamoos.

Apparently, people who lived in towns or villages, their clothes remained whiter and brighter for longer compared to those who lived in rural areas or as nomads who are more exposed to the elements and more contact with the soil.

The term "الحَوَاريّ" referred to by Lane is used in the Quran to refer to a disciple of Jesus, and apparently the disciples were so-called (i.e. الحواريون ) either because (1) their trade was to whiten or cleanse garments through washing or beating, or (2) they helped others purify and cleanse their hearts from vice and defects, or (3) they are people whose hearts are themselves free from vice and vile things.


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## elroy

ayed said:


> *لبن ناصح*


 Wouldn't it be ناصع?  In Palestinian Arabic ناصح means "fat."


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## ayed

Both are correct either (*ناصح*)or(*ناصع*)


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