# piki / hiki



## Chaddo__Desu

I am reading through a story and it is saying there is one crab and it uses ぴき instead of ひき.  I couldnt find piki in my dictionary, but I did find hiki after searching around of google.  Was the use of "piki" instead "hiki" an accident or does piki actually exist for counting small animals such as a crab?

Thanks


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## yamada

It depends on how many for example dogs are there:
a dog 　　犬一ぴき(inu ippiki or inu ichihiki; the latter correct but used seldom)
two dogs 　犬二ひき(inu nihiki)
three dogs 　犬三びき, 犬三ひき or 犬三ぴき(inu sanbiki, inu sanhiki or inu sanpiki)
four dogs 　犬四ひき(inu shihiki or inu yonhiki)
five dogs 　犬五ひき(inu gohiki)
six dogs 　犬六ひき or 犬六ぴき(inu rokuhiki or inu roppiki)
seven dogs 　犬七ひき(inu hichihiki or inu nanahiki)
eight dogs 　犬八ひき or 犬八ぴき(inu hachihiki or inu happiki)
nine dogs 　犬九ひき(inu kyuuhiki)
ten dogs 　犬十ぴき(inu zyuppiki or inu zyuhhiki; the latter is correct but used seldom)

For counting crabs as well as octupuses and squid the unit '杯(hai)' is correct, 
but it seems 'hiki(匹)' or 'bi(尾)' are also often used.


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## Chaddo__Desu

Japanese is a complex language and I see that I have a long road ahead of me.   

Thanks for the help, yamada.


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## cheshire

話ことばでは、数を誤解のないように伝えるために、すべての数で音便化しない（すなわち、「ぴき」「びき」「ぽん」「ぼん」「いっ」「はっ」とはならず、すべて基本形で発音する）ことがあります。

例：いちひき、さんひき、ろくひき、はちひき、じゅういちひき


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## I_like_my_TV

You'll find that the sound modification in Japanese is a fairly regular and predictable process, once you've got used to the language. 

がんばって！


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## cheshire

Some phonological changes are universal, some are Japanese-proper. For instance,

"さん　ほん　to さむ　ぼん" is a universally observable change. "m" tends to make the following phoneme voiced.

"いち　ひき　to いっぴき"　is, I think, peculiar to Japanese. If anyone knows a case similar to this in other languages, please let me know. 

I read somewhere that these kinds of 音便化　have something to do with 呉音, that is, 広東話 nowadays.

It's same as Korean, "t" "p" and "k" endings of kanjis. These kanjis are called 入声. Although 普通話　lost all of this kind of pronunciation, 広東話 preserves this. 入声の漢字 are accountable for many of the 音便化した words.


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## Aoyama

> You'll find that the sound modification in Japanese is a fairly regular and predictable process, once you've got used to the language.


That's one way to put things, the other is to think of this change of pronounciation as _liaisons_ , the same way French or other languages have it.
You will then have : 
-hitotsu (or ichi) hiki becoming i*pp*iki because tsu or chi in front of hi doubles the consonant (cf. _ha hi hu he ho /pa pi .../ba bi ..._)
- ni hiki
- san biki because the n causes the h to become b (like in the phonetic rule m,p,b , n having the role of m here, like in shimbun)
- yon hiki is an exception to the rule (not yon biki), though I think *yoppiki* could be possible (but never/seldom used), shihiki is rare
- gohiki
- roku hiki or roppiki (roppiki being more correct, like roppon /roku hon)
_ku _acts like _tsu_
_-_ nana hiki (shichi hiki is rare, shippiki logical but not used)
- hachi hiki or happiki (better)
- kyu hiki
- ju hiki or juppiki (better) or even jippiki 

Looks (or sounds) insurmountable but go back to what I like my TV said, it's true ...


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## cheshire

No, I've never heard one say よっぴき. 
よんびき　is quite normal.

京の宮廷のお役人は「いtひき」と律儀に発音してたのかもしれないですね。日本語では音素的にいえば子音の連続は不可能だから（東京方言では可能）、二つの解決法のうちから選択せざるを得なかったのでしょう。すなわち、

（１）母音を挿入する
（２）音便化する

この場合、音便化を選択したっていうことです。


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## Aoyama

> よんびき　is quite normal


If you say so ... I think it _should be_ normal but usage prefers _*yon hiki*_ (?) .
I have heard (but then, it could be _voices_ like Joan of Arc) *yoppiki* at some fish market (where, I forgot) ...


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## I_like_my_TV

> I have heard (but then, it could be voices like Joan of Arc) yoppiki at some fish market (where, I forgot) ...


If I hear this in a fish market, I'd definitely be asking for SIX (fishes).


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## cheshire

That *can *happen, ILTV. I once encountered a situation where I asked for a deliverer to come at しちじ（七時）, then he came at いちじ（一時）.


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## Aoyama

> If I hear this in a fish market, I'd definitely be asking for SIX (fishes).


That woud be confusing yoppiki with roppiki, which was _not_ the case (even with Joan of Arc).
When it comes (and he came) to しちじ（七時）and いちじ（一時), funny misunderstandings happen in Japanese, true ...


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## Flaminius

> I have heard (but then, it could be _voices_ like Joan of Arc) *yoppiki* at some fish market (where, I forgot) ...


I myself haven't encountered this but this is logically possible.  四人 is sometimes read よったり (> よたり) just like 一人 (ひとり), 二人 (ふたり), 三人 (みたり).  What *Aoyama* has heard may be a reinterpretation of _yon_ (which is a Japanese lexis) as a Chinese word with final stop (入声) features.


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## Aoyama

> 四人 is sometimes read よったり (> よたり) just like 一人 (ひとり), 二人 (ふたり), 三人 (みたり).


That's interesting (and news to me) ... 
 By the way, how can one explain the mutation of *と* into *た *?


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