# Finché, purché, a patto che



## moodywop

EDIT: Split from here

I think that in Italian we often use the negative form with _finché/a meno che _in sentences whereyou usually use the affirmative form with _until/unless _in English:

_Please keep your seat belts fastened until the plane has come to a complete stop_
_Vi preghiamo di mantenere allacciate le cinture finché l'aereo non si sarà fermato completamente(_literal translation)

_We'll play tomorrow - unless it rains_
_Giocheremo domani, a meno che non piova_

Which leaves me wondering how to render in Italian the difference between _unless you know him _and _unless you don't know him _if we insist on using _a meno che. _I guess in the latter example one would be forced to use _se - "se non lo conosci"._


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> I think that in Italian we often use the negative form with _finché/a meno che _in sentences whereyou usually use the affirmative form with _until/unless _in English:
> 
> _Please keep your seat belts fastened until the plane has come to a complete stop_
> _Vi preghiamo di mantenere allacciate le cinture finché l'aereo non si sarà fermato completamente(_literal translation)
> 
> _We'll play tomorrow - unless it rains_
> _Giocheremo domani, a meno che non piova_
> 
> Which leaves me wondering how to render in Italian the difference between _unless you know him _and _unless you don't know him _if we insist on using _a meno che. _I guess in the latter example one would be forced to use _se - "se non lo conosci"._


Yes! This was (is) so hard for me. 

This helped me: "finchè non" can also mean "as long as" or "while" instead of "until." As in:

"finché l'aereo non si sarà fermato completamente" which as you said means 
"until the plane has come to a complete stop" which is a natural way for us to say it. 

But to _learn_ the usage of "finchè non" I have to remember that it also means 
"as long as (while) the plane has *not* come to a complete stop."


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## moodywop

Isp

Actually you provided me with food for thought and helped me come up with more examples to make the use of _finché _clearer not only to you but to myself.

A battered wife might say:

_Non mi sentirò al sicuro finché mio marito non sarà dietro le sbarre_
_I won't feel safe until my husband is behind bars/locked up_

_Non mi sentirò al sicuro finché mio marito sarà a piede libero_
_I won't feel safe as long as my husband is...(_I don't know how to say _a piede libero - on the loose?)_

So I think that one could generalize and say that when _finché=until _it is usually followed by a negative but not when _finché=as long as. _All I have to do now is come up with exceptions to the rule...


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> Isp
> 
> Actually you provided me with food for thought and helped me come up with more examples to make the use of _finché _clearer not only to you but to myself.
> 
> A battered wife might say:
> 
> _Non mi sentirò al sicuro finché mio marito non sarà dietro le sbarre_
> _I won't feel safe until my husband is behind bars/locked up_
> 
> _Non mi sentirò al sicuro finché mio marito sarà a piede libero_
> _I won't feel safe as long as my husband is...(_I don't know how to say _a piede libero - on the loose?)_
> 
> So I think that one could generalize and say that when _finché=until _it is usually followed by a negative but not when _finché=as long as. _All I have to do now is come up with exceptions to the rule...


On the loose, exactly. Your help is appreciated, it seems like a small thing but it still trips me up, so if you come up with more, I'll be paying close attention!


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## moodywop

Isp

I've given it more thought and I've realized that there are two main differences in the use of _until/finché _in Italian and English which can lead to mistakes.

Not only do we usually use a negative clause after _finché=until_, as opposed to an affirmative clause in English

_finché non si sarà rimesso = until he has recovered_

but we use the future and future perfect tenses as opposed to present and present perfect tenses in English

_finché non troverai un lavoro = until you find a job_
_finché non avrai finito gli studi = until you have completed your studies_

This second difference in usage leads Italians to say _until you will find a job_ which I believe is unacceptable in English. The same mistake is common with _unless:_

_a meno che non lo veda domani = unless I see him tomorrow (*NOT *unless I won't see him.._which is wrong or _unless I don't see him.., _which of course means something else, i.e. _a meno che mi capiti di non vederlo domani)._

This is all "work in progress" so I'm sure that more examples will crop up that are not explained by my tentative "rules".


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> Isp
> 
> I've given it more thought and I've realized that there are two main differences in the use of _until/finché _in Italian and English which can lead to mistakes.
> 
> Not only do we usually use a negative clause after _finché=until_, as opposed to an affirmative clause in English
> 
> _finché non si sarà rimesso = until he has recovered_
> 
> but we use the future and future perfect tenses as opposed to present and present perfect tenses in English
> 
> _finché non troverai un lavoro = until you find a job_
> _finché non avrai finito gli studi = until you have completed your studies_
> 
> This second difference in usage leads Italians to say _until you will find a job_ which I believe is unacceptable in English. The same mistake is common with _unless:_
> 
> _a meno che non lo veda domani = unless I see him tomorrow (*NOT *unless I won't see him.._which is wrong or _unless I don't see him.., _which of course means something else, i.e. _a meno che mi capiti di non vederlo domani)._
> 
> This is all "work in progress" so I'm sure that more examples will crop up that are not explained by my tentative "rules".


In fact, I picked up on how it is supposed to be used in Italian partly by paying attention to my Italian friends speaking Italian, but also by becoming aware of their mistakes when they spoke English. These examples, as far as I can tell, still support the substitution of "as long as" with the negative (as long as you aren't recovered, as long as you haven't found a job... etc).

A meno che is harder, I'm mulling that over. 

You are really helping me (and others I strongly suspect!), keep going - please! 

p.s. I did ask jana to split the thread. It certainly deserves its own thread now.


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## Manuel_M

The use on non after such phrases as _finchè_ and _a meno che _was, and to a certain extent, sill is, quite hard for me to comprehend. At one point I decided it was too complicated to remember while attempting to make converstaion, so I chose a more 'behavioural' approach: I compiled a longish (app 15) list of sentences with a phrase staring with _finchè_ and a similar list with of sentences with _a meno che,_ and just repetaed them 2 or three times day. Within a few days correct usage became quite automatic.

Hope this helps


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## Jana337

I also use such dirty tricks to fool my logic if it protests against a counter-intuitive usage of a word. 

Manuel, if your well-tested lists with finché and a meno che still exist, would you mind sharing them?

Jana


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## Manuel_M

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I also use such dirty tricks to fool my logic if it protests against a counter-intuitive usage of a word.
> 
> Manuel, if your well-tested lists with finché and a meno che still exist, would you mind sharing them?
> 
> Jana


 
I would gladly have done so, but this 'dirty trick' as you call it, risale a molti anni fa.


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## lsp

Manuel_M said:
			
		

> The use on non after such phrases as _finchè_ and _a meno che _was, and to a certain extent, sill is, quite hard for me to comprehend. At one point I decided it was too complicated to remember while attempting to make converstaion, so I chose a more 'behavioural' approach: I compiled a longish (app 15) list of sentences with a phrase staring with _finchè_ and a similar list with of sentences with _a meno che,_ and just repetaed them 2 or three times day. Within a few days correct usage became quite automatic.
> 
> Hope this helps


 Jana, I was just about to ask for the lists, too!


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> Jana, I was just about to ask for the lists, too!


 Great minds think alike. 

Never mind, we will certainly will able to come up with our own lists - with the kind help of our native friends and Manuel who has already mastered these subtle and difficult words. 

Jana


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## moodywop

lsp said:
			
		

> In fact, I picked up on how it is supposed to be used in Italian partly by paying attention to my Italian friends speaking Italian, but also by becoming aware of their mistakes when they spoke English.QUOTE]
> 
> Isp
> 
> That's very clever of you. Just by hearing Italian learners saying things like "I am here since June" instead of "I've been..." you can infer that the correct Italian form is "Sono qui da giugno".
> 
> What's still puzzling you about _a meno che? _Basically all you have to remember is to use a negative verb in the subjunctive.
> 
> _unless you're going to see him tomorrow_
> _a meno che tu *non* lo *veda* domani_
> 
> _unless you('ve) already told him_
> _a meno che tu *non *glielo *abbia *già detto_
> 
> Does that help?


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> lsp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, I picked up on how it is supposed to be used in Italian partly by paying attention to my Italian friends speaking Italian, but also by becoming aware of their mistakes when they spoke English.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isp
> 
> That's very clever of you. Just by hearing Italian learners saying things like "I am here since June" instead of "I've been..." you can infer that the correct Italian form is "Sono qui da giugno".
> 
> What's still puzzling you about _a meno che? _Basically all you have to remember is to use a negative verb in the subjunctive.
> 
> _unless you're going to see him tomorrow_
> _a meno che tu *non* lo *veda* domani_
> 
> _unless you('ve) already told him_
> _a meno che tu *non *glielo *abbia *già detto_
> 
> Does that help?
Click to expand...

Yes, Italians speaking English have given me insight into some of the finest nuances. It's worth paying careful attention to it! 

About "a meno che"... Well, I do like an all-or-nothing rule, but... how do you say them if the English original is in the negative?

_unless you're *not* going to see him tomorrow_

_unless you *haven't* already told him_

Now that we're getting to know each other, it's Lsp. I usually don't say anything since it's pretty commonly taken for isp all over WR, and I'm not bothered by it. But it seems silly not to say something at this point, since we're both interested in this subject. (Forgive me this tiny digression, OK, mods?)


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> Now that we're getting to know each other, it's Lsp. I usually don't say anything since it's pretty commonly taken for isp all over WR, and I'm not bothered by it. But it seems silly not to say something at this point, since we're both interested in this subject. (Forgive me this tiny digression, OK, mods?)


Perdonata. 

Jana


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## Silvia

lsp said:
			
		

> but... how do you say them if the English original is in the negative?
> _unless you're *not* going to see him tomorrow_
> _unless you *haven't* already told him_


Potresti fornire una frase completa con la subordinata?


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## moodywop

Hi Lsp(sorry I got it wrong earlier)

Now that's a toughie - how to translate *unless+not. *I hope Alfry and Silvia will lend us a hand. Actually I did foresee the problem. At the end of posts #1 and #5 I tried to come up with alternatives:

_1. unless you don't know him = se non lo conosci(_since _a meno che tu non lo conosca=unless you know him)_

_2. unless I don't see him tomorrow= a meno che mi capiti di non vederlo domani(lit. unless I happen not to..)_

As you can see in 2. I inadvertently broke the rule. It should have been _non mi capiti. _But the clause sounded convoluted enough as it was.

Silvia is right. The best thing is to produce full sentences and then the other native speakers can all have a stab at translating them.

_I'd like you to discuss this with John - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow_
Here an easy way round the problem is using _sempre che/purché/a patto che(=provided): sempre che tu lo veda domani._

Using _sempre che_ has just occurred to me but I think it can work in most cases:

_Why don't you get a catflap so your kitty can get out? Unless they're not available in Italy_
_...sempre che siano disponibili/si trovino in Italia_
_(digression -_they're not. I had to get one from England)

_I can't see why he should turn you down - unless he doesn't like you_
_....a meno che tu non gli sia antipatico_

See, Lsp? Our cooperation seems to have born fruit 

Carlo


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## Silvia

Ciao Carlo,

I guess I'm a little slow this morning... but I didn't understand this very well:
"I'd like you to discuss this with John - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow"
The content looks nonsense, doesn't it?
Vorrei che tu ne parlassi con John, non si sa quando, unless you're not going to see him tomorrow? Sempre che tu lo veda domani? Provided you see him tomorrow? Only if you see him tomorrow?


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## moodywop

Ciao Silvia

I'm a little slow myself this morning - it's an unbearably hot clammy day.

My example sounded a bit incongrous to me too but that's what happens when you focus on grammar rather than content - as I did.

Then I thought it would make sense in the right context and left it as it was. Imagine this scenario: whatever X has to discuss with John concerns something that has to be finalized by tomorrow. X and Y don't have John's phone number. John is a freelancer so X may or may not see him tomorrow. OK I know this is a bit far-fetched but as I said I was concentrating on illustrating a grammar point and my tired old synapses couldn't come up with anything better .

Why don't we all pitch in and provide more realistic examples in order to clear Lsp's uncertainties over the use of _a meno che?_

Btw since I'm a newbie here can I just say that this forum is indeed unique - thanks to the amazing commitment, sensitivity to language issues, fluency in both languages and, last but not least, _disponibilità _and courtesy displayed by all members? I've always had an interest bordering on obsession in language and languages and meeting so many like-minded people on a single forum is a dream come true.

Carlo


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## lsp

Caveat: I try never to express myself in English in so convoluted (arzigogolato , eh Silvia?) a style, and I also try to express myself in Italian by translating the sense of what I want to say in an Italian way, rather than translating word-for-word from the English, so these are just for linguistic exercise to refine how we understand how "a meno che" or "sempre che" operates.

You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco  - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow.

Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.

p.s. moodywop, they forums are addictive, aren't they? And they keep getting better as people like you find their way here!


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco  - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow.
> 
> Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.


Si possono tradurre queste frasi anche usando "a patto che" invece di "a meno che"?

Jana


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## lsp

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Si possono tradurre queste frasi anche usando "a patto che" invece di "a meno che"?
> 
> Jana


Jana, will you write the whole sentence with "a patto che" please?


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## moodywop

lsp said:
			
		

> Caveat: I try never to express myself in English in so convoluted (arzigogolato , eh Silvia?) a style, and I also try to express myself in Italian by translating the sense of what I want to say in an Italian way, rather than translating word-for-word from the English, so these are just for linguistic exercise to refine how we understand how "a meno che" or "sempre che" operates.
> 
> You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow.
> 
> Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.
> 
> p.s. moodywop, they forums are addictive, aren't they? And they keep getting better as people like you find their way here!


 
Lsp

Actually the best thing might be to provide both a literal translation and a freer, more natural one. With the example you provided:

Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.

_sempre che tu glielo abbia già detto _sounds fine but I'd probably go for _o forse non le hai ancora detto nulla?_

I also think that - except for very simple phrases - there is often no "best" translation. You may well consult 100 native speakers and get 100 different translations. It has to do with personal preferences to an extent. Linguists use the word "idiolect" to describe the totally individual way in which each native speaker uses his/her language. For example "realizzare" is not part of my idiolect in the "rendersi conto" sense. I just don't like it and never use it
 
You're right - this forum is addictive, but only because it's so good. And it's great helping people like you who are genuinely interested(and extremely advanced learners I should add). In a few days I'll be back at school, trying to cajole rowdy, unruly Neapolitan teenagers into learning some English.


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## islandspaniels

This is an absolutely incredible thread!!! I am really out of my depth here but would the use of purchè to indicate some event to be fullfilled be of use?


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## Jana337

Eccola:

_Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.
Gina sarà rimasta a bocca aperta sentendo le notizie - a patto che tu non gliene abbia raccontato prima._

Non capisco bene la frase con Marco - *you* can return the keys that* I* borrowed to *him*? 

Jana


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## lsp

I might say these in English spontaneoulsy because I don't have to concentrate, so they get complicated without my being aware. 

But if I found myself heading in the direction of these sentences in Italian, I'd feel flustered, so I'd quickly switch my mind back to English, think what I'm trying to say, quickly rebuild an easier version and put my Italian brain back in gear. Problem with a lot of us, we want to say it EXACTLY the same way in the learned language and the original. Silly goal, really, since that makes us sound like foreigners even if the words and tenses are right. 

But at some point you want to get to those complicated constructions without a hiccup in your "new" language. 

Original - You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco  - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow.

_Easy version - You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco. Will you see him tomorrow?_

Original - Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.

_Easy Version - Gina must be surprised by the news. I imagine you've already told her._​


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## lsp

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Eccola:
> 
> _Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.
> Gina sarà rimasta a bocca aperta sentendo le notizie - a patto che tu non gliene abbia raccontato prima._
> 
> Non capisco bene la frase con Marco - you can return the keys that I borrowed to him?
> 
> Jana


So, a patto che follows the English with regard to being followed by a positive or a negative?

You can return [the keys that I borrowed (_from Marco_)] to Marco. Clearer?


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## Jana337

lsp said:
			
		

> So, a patto che follows the English with regard to being followed by a positive or a negative?


 I think we better open new threads for "a patto che" and "a meno che". And yes, I think it follows English. It does in all five examples I have mumbled for myself.


> You can return [the keys that I borrowed (_from Marco_)] to Marco. Clearer?


 Yes.  Now I don't think that this one can be translated using "a patto che" because it means "provided that", which I cannot reconcile with the sentence.

Jana


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## lsp

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> This is an absolutely incredible thread!!! I am really out of my depth here but would the use of purchè to indicate some event to be fullfilled be of use?


Interesting suggestion (seems to me like you're keeping pace!)
purché = provided (that)

How does it work?

You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco - provided that you're going to see him tomorrow.
Tu puoi restituire le chiave a Marco, purché lo vedrai domani

I think my attempt needs help.


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## moodywop

islandspaniels said:
			
		

> This is an absolutely incredible thread!!! I am really out of my depth here but would the use of purchè to indicate some event to be fullfilled be of use?


 
_Sempre che, a patto che _and _purché _are more or less synonymous.

They can be used for events beyond your control:

_Giocheremo domani, a patto che/sempre che/purché non piova(unless it rains/as long as it doesn't rain)_


and in situations where you are dictating your terms

_OK, ti presto la mia macchina,purché/(ma solo) a patto che tu mi prometta di guidare con prudenza(as long as you promise you will drive carefully)_



			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> Si possono tradurre queste frasi anche usando "a patto che" invece di "a meno che"?
> 
> Jana


 
Jana

My point is that you can usually *only *translate _unless+negative clause _by using _a patto che/sempre che _because - and I know this sounds confusing - _a meno che+negative clause = unless+affirmative clause. _

_I won't take him back unless he apologizes(affirmative in English)_
_Non lo riassumerò a meno che *non* mi chieda scusa(negative in Italian!)_

_I'll definitely give him a job - unless he doesn't speak English fluently_
_Certo che lo assumerò, sempre che/a patto che/purché parli correntemente l'inglese_

Is that any better?



			
				lsp said:
			
		

> Interesting suggestion (seems to me like you're keeping pace!)
> purché = provided (that)
> 
> How does it work?
> 
> You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco - provided that you're going to see him tomorrow.
> Tu puoi restituire le chiave a Marco, purché lo vedrai domani
> 
> I think my attempt needs help.


 
Lsp

Am I driving you all bonkers with this thread? I can hear a roaring YES in the background 

Your example should read

_Puoi restituire a Marco le chiavi che mi ha prestato, purchè/a patto che/sempre che tu lo veda domani_

These three conjunctions all require the use of the subjunctive


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## Jana337

moodywop said:
			
		

> Jana
> 
> My point is that you can usually *only *translate _unless+negative clause _by using _a patto che/sempre che _because - and I know this sounds confusing - _a meno che+negative clause = unless+affirmative clause. _
> 
> _I won't take him back unless he apologizes(affirmative in English)_
> _Non lo riassumerò a meno che *non* mi chieda scusa(negative in Italian!)_
> 
> _I'll definitely give him a job - unless he doesn't speak English fluently_
> _Certo che lo assumerò, sempre che/a patto che/purché parli correntemente l'inglese_
> 
> Is that any better?



Much better, thanks:
Non lo riassumerò a meno che non mi chieda scusa --> Lo assumerò a patto che mi chieda scusa (I know that these are not equivalent from the viewpoint of the pure logic but anyway).

Giusto?

Jana


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> Lsp
> 
> Am I driving you all bonkers with this thread? I can hear a roaring YES in the background


NO!!!  I would ask the same question to you!


			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> Your example should read
> 
> _Puoi restituire a Marco le chiavi che mi ha prestato, purchè/a patto che/sempre che tu lo veda domani_
> 
> These three conjunctions all require the use of the subjunctive


Thank you for going into such detail. There is no other way to learn these fine points. I used to interrupt friends in the middle of the most fascinating conversations to ask why this preposition or that subjunctive... this is much better!!


			
				moodywop said:
			
		

> I won't take him back unless he apologizes(affirmative in English)
> Non lo riassumerò a meno che non mi chieda scusa(negative in Italian!)


Back to a review of finchè for a moment. Is this right?

I won't take him back *until* he apologizes (affirmative version = I won't take him back *as long as* he hasn't apologized - negative version)
Non lo riassumerò finchè non mi avrà chiesto scusa (negative and future in Italian, no subjunctive!)


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## Jana337

moodywop said:
			
		

> Lsp
> 
> Am I driving you all bonkers with this thread? I can hear a roaring YES in the background
> 
> Your example should read
> 
> _Puoi restituire a Marco le chiavi che mi ha prestato, purchè/a patto che/sempre che tu lo veda domani_
> 
> These three conjunctions all require the use of the subjunctive


This is actually strange. I was taught that, when speaking about future, you can substitute the future tense for congiuntivo.

Jana


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## Manuel_M

Jana337 said:
			
		

> This is actually strange. I was taught that, when speaking about future, you can substitute the future tense for congiuntivo.
> 
> Jana


 
So was I, but I think that holds only for situations like:

Penso che lei vada domani
Penso che lai andra` domani.


That rule (or concession) does not apply not for situations involving a meno che, purche` etc., which MUST be followed by the congiuntivo.

That's my understanding anyway.


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## moodywop

Jana337 said:
			
		

> This is actually strange. I was taught that, when speaking about future, you can substitute the future tense for congiuntivo.
> 
> Jana


 
Your teacher was probably talking about verbs like _pensare _or _sperare:_

_penso/spero che Mario venga/verrà domani _

Purists would insist on the subjunctive so the future may be more suitable in informal situations.

Oh and in reply to your post #32 - giustissimo!

Carlo

PS Sorry, Manuel. I only saw your post after I had sent mine. We came up with practically identical examples


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## Jana337

moodywop said:
			
		

> Your teacher was probably talking about verbs like _pensare _or _sperare:_
> 
> _penso/spero che Mario venga/verrà domani _
> 
> Purists would insist on the subjunctive so the future may be more suitable in informal situations.
> 
> Oh and in reply to your post #32 - giustissimo!
> 
> Carlo
> 
> PS Sorry, Manuel. I only saw your post after I had sent mine. We came up with practically identical examples



Yes, examples with pensare and sapere were in the back of my mind. Thanks to both of you!

Jana


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## moodywop

Lsp

Please don't laugh but I finally came up with examples in which you should *not *use a negative clause after _finché. _It's when _finché_ means _for as long as. _The future tense is used.

_lavorerò finché mi sarà possibile_

_finché vivrai in questa casa dovrai rispettare le nostre regole_

Right..now can anyone recommend a psychiatrist that specializes in the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder 

Carlo


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## Silvia

lsp said:
			
		

> You can return the keys that I borrowed to Marco  - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow.
> 
> Gina must be surprised by the news - unless you haven't already told her.


Ciao Giulio, puoi ridare a Marco le chiavi che ho preso in prestito, se lo vedi domani (veramente lsp la frase in inglese mi sembra iperarzigogolata!)
e se la vogliamo rendere ancora più colloquiale: se ti riesce di vederlo domani.

Vorrei sapere che cosa sta dietro a quel unless you're not going to see him tomorrow: che tipo di impressione può dare, a parte quella di parlare un po' troppo forbitamente?!  Ma poi perché usare unless in quella frase? Non sarebbe più giusto "in case you see him tomorrow"?

Poi non parliamo della seconda frase... va be', parliamone!
Lsp, puoi sostituire must con un altro verbo, perché essendo invariabile, vorrei capire il preciso tempo del verbo. Potresti spiegare la frase (principale + subordinata) in altre parole, ma in inglese?

Grazie!


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## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> That's a great example! Thanks, Islandspaniels. It also helped me realize that I was wrong when I wrote that _finché=for as long as _is followed by the future tense. The present tense is probably as or even more common, since we often use the present tense with a future meaning:
> 
> _Sì, l'auto è un po' vecchiotta ma finché funziona..._
> 
> _funzionerà _would sound distinctly odd here
> 
> Carlo


So does _Sì, l'auto è un po' vecchiotta ma finché funziona..._ (as long as it works..) mean the same thing as 
_Sì, l'auto è un po' vecchiotta ma finché non muoia ..._ (until it dies)


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## Alfry

lsp said:
			
		

> _Sì, l'auto è un po' vecchiotta ma finché non muoia ..._ (until it dies)


 
credo di si

si, l'auto è un po' vecchiotta ma finchè non muore... (non me ne libero)

it's not a literal translation but in this case I'd say 
yep, the car is a bit old but I'll keep it till it'll fall to pieces"


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## horseman

Hi all:

 Now I'm confused.  Moodywop's example  " sempre che siano disponibili"  doesn;t seem right..Would it not be  "sempre che NON disponibili?  We're saying "unless they are NOT available"...but "sempre che siano disponibili would mean "unless they ARE available".  Please cprrect me if wrong.

Thanks



moodywop said:


> Hi Lsp(sorry I got it wrong earlier)
> 
> Now that's a toughie - how to translate *unless+not. *I hope Alfry and Silvia will lend us a hand. Actually I did foresee the problem. At the end of posts #1 and #5 I tried to come up with alternatives:
> 
> _1. unless you don't know him = se non lo conosci(_since _a meno che tu non lo conosca=unless you know him)_
> 
> _2. unless I don't see him tomorrow= a meno che mi capiti di non vederlo domani(lit. unless I happen not to..)_
> 
> As you can see in 2. I inadvertently broke the rule. It should have been _non mi capiti. _But the clause sounded convoluted enough as it was.
> 
> Silvia is right. The best thing is to produce full sentences and then the other native speakers can all have a stab at translating them.
> 
> _I'd like you to discuss this with John - unless you're not going to see him tomorrow_
> Here an easy way round the problem is using _sempre che/purché/a patto che(=provided): sempre che tu lo veda domani._
> 
> Using _sempre che_ has just occurred to me but I think it can work in most cases:
> 
> _Why don't you get a catflap so your kitty can get out? Unless they're not available in Italy_
> _...sempre che siano disponibili/si trovino in Italia_
> _(digression -_they're not. I had to get one from England)
> 
> _I can't see why he should turn you down - unless he doesn't like you_
> _....a meno che tu non gli sia antipatico_
> 
> See, Lsp? Our cooperation seems to have born fruit
> 
> Carlo


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## pinpirulin

horseman said:


> Hi all:
> 
> Now I'm confused.  Moodywop's example  " sempre che siano disponibili"  doesn;t seem right..Would it not be  "sempre che NON disponibili?  We're saying "unless they are NOT available"...but "sempre che siano disponibili would mean "unless they ARE available".  Please cprrect me if wrong.
> 
> Thanks


"Unless they are not available" suggests that cat flaps might not be easy to find in Italy, so you are saying "get a cat flap, provided it is available to buy" (far from literal, but to understand the "sempre che" it helps to rephrase in the positive).
"Sempre che siano disponibili" means exactly that, i.e., "provided they are available" (and you are hinting that this is likely not to be the case).
"Unless thet are avaiable" would fit in the sentence "I'll bring you a catflap from England next time and come and visit, unless they are available in Italy": "... a meno che si trovino..."

E' un po' più chiaro? spero


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## horseman

Hi:

 Thank you...so...if we say .."unless they NOT available"...then it would be " sempre che NON siano disponibili".....oppure .."ä meno che Non siano disponibili"  ...Is this correct?

Thank you!!


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## pinpirulin

horseman said:


> Hi:
> 
> Thank you...so...if we say .."unless they NOT available"...then it would be " sempre che NON siano disponibili".....oppure .."ä meno che Non siano disponibili"  ...Is this correct?
> 
> Thank you!!


well, no. That is exactly why these expresisons can be so confusing 
"Unless" translates "a meno che *non*". For "Unless... not"  use "sempre che..." _without _negatives. I think the most helpful way to remeber / use it is to rephrase the English sentence avoiding "unless", and use "a meno che" or "sempre che" depending on whether the simplified sentence contains a negation or not:

Why don't you install a cat flap? Unless they are not available in Italy
Why don't you install a cat flap? If they are available in Italy, that is
             ...                            sempre che siano disponibili...

I'll bring you a catflap next time I visit, unless you can find one before
I'll bring you a catflap next time I visit -- if you do not manage to find one before
           ...                                         a meno che ne abbia già trovata una tu


Or try reading post #30 again, it might help.
P


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## BristolGirl

In addition to the very useful posts in this thread - I have been trying to think of a simple way for Italian learners (I mean Learners of Italian !!) to remember to use the negative clause after 'finchè' or 'fino a che'.
The word 'until' is made up of 'und' + 'till' which are 2 ways (in Old Norse and Old English) of saying the same thing -  'as far as' + 'to / up to'. 
Therefore it's a duplication.
So the duplication is a bit like saying that in English a double negative = a positive.
If that doesn't work it might help to think of  '_un_' = '_non_' as a negative prefix contained in '_until_' while '_til_' = '_fino a che_'. 
Just some ideas to play with.


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## joanvillafane

Thanks a lot, BristolGirl.  Every little bit helps.  This is definitely one of those language demons that is not easy for English speakers to master.  I have read this entire thread and I have to express my appreciation for what I think of as the Golden Age of the Forum.
Continuerò a studiare finchè non riesco a padroneggiarlo.  (How's that - I meant to say, I'll keep studying until I master it. - or maybe padroneggiarla - la parola, la sintassi, etc.)


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## King Crimson

joanvillafane said:


> Continuerò a studiare finchè non riesco riuscirò a padroneggiarlo.  (How's that - I meant to say, I'll keep studying until I master it. - or maybe padroneggiarla - la parola, la sintassi, etc.)



And here is another language demon for non-native speakers, I think: the dreaded _concordanza dei tempi_


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## Teerex51

This thread was started 11 years ago and I'm amazed at the quantity of valuable information it has grown to include since.

My small contribution is limited to the use of the pesky conjunction *finché.* (No point in getting overambitious and confusing the good folks who might read this.)

*Finché* has two separate meanings: _*as long as*_ (in a positive sentence) and _*until such time as*_ (in a negative sentence).
Examples might help keep at bay the onset of the thousand-yard stare in the leery learner.

Finchè c’è vita c’è speranza. _*As long as*_
Piangi finché vuoi, ma non cambierò idea. _*As long as*_
Finché non sarò tornato, resta in casa. _*Until such time as*_
Mantenete le cinture allacciate finché il segnale non sarà spento. _*Until such time as *_
In the last example, the role of _non_ becomes very clear the moment you remove it.

_Mantenete le cinture allacciate finché il segnale sarà spento_ means the opposite thing: i.e., _keep your seatbelts fastened as long as the sign is turned off (thus implying you can unbuckle them the moment the sign comes on)_
Hope this little mnemonic helps


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