# thousand and millions



## Nino83

Minasan konnichiwa.

I'm just a bit confused about the Japanese (Chinese?) numeral system based on 10000 (man).

Are these translations right?

three thousand = 三千
thirty thousand = 三万
three hundred thousand = 三十万
three million = 三百万
thirty million = 三千万
three hundred million = 三億

Tanaka-san has three hundred million yen.
田中さんは三億円を持っています。

Arigatō gozaimasu


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## Flaminius

Yes, you are correct for all your examplea.  The  Chinese number system introduces a new name of numbers for each 104_n_, where _n_ is a natural number greater than 1.


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## Nino83

Thank you Flaminius! 
I suppose you use this system also during math lessons. So you use the Hindu-Arabic numerals in writing but you read them according to the Chinese system, isn't it? 
Aren't you accustomed with the Hindu-Arabic system? I've noticed, for example, that the American movie "The Six Million Dollar Man" is translated "600万ドルの男", i.e using the Cinese system. 
600万ドルの男 - Wikipedia


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## Flaminius

Nino83 said:


> Aren't you accustomed with the Hindu-Arabic system?


I don't think I understand what you mean by that.  What the Americans call a million dollar question is 百万ドルの質問 (when written horizontally, 100万ドル is more common).  In technical writings numbers are all spelt out in the Arabic numerals.  Often, three consecutive figures are separated by commas as in 12,345,678 (probably never by spaces as in Italy).  It is hard to pronounce big numbers represented in this way, hence the hybrid like 100万.


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## Nino83

Flaminius said:


> I don't think I understand what you mean by that.


For example you've to do a sum.
You write it in Hindu-Arabic numbers: 10000 + 95000 = 105000
At the same time you think: man tasu kyūmangosen wa jūmangosen
In other wors you write using Hindu-Arabic numerals but you think about numbers according to the Chinese numeral system. Is it right?


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## Flaminius

Your additive equation is pronounced thusly:
*Ichiman* tasu kyūman-gosen wa jūman gosen.

_Sen_, _hyaku_, and _jū_ can stand in a number without _ichi_, but we need _ichi_ for _man_ and onwards.

Think it this way.  We have number words and derivation rules adopted from Chinese and we have at least three script representations for our numbers; one in Chinese characters, another in Arabic numerals and another in a mixture of both.  In passing I find it interesting to note that Hindi has an irregular naming convention for powers of ten.  Some are grouped by three zeros as in many European languages but others are grouped by four zeros.


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## Nino83

Flaminius said:


> Often, three consecutive figures are separated by commas as in 12,345,678


So, for example, you write 200,000 (according to the Hindu-Arabic system) in technical texts and, at the same time, you pronounce it "nijūman", and write it 二十万 and ２０万 (according to the Chinese system). Or do you write 20,0000 instead of 200,000?
I've read that there are other kanji like 壱 弐 参 拾 萬 that are used instead of ー 二 三 十 万 in contracts and other legal documents, in order to prevent modifications.
How this set of kanji is called and how thse numerals work? 
EDIT: I've found this page. They're called _daiji_, 大字, or "alternate numbers". 


Flaminius said:


> In passing I find it interesting to note that Hindi has an irregular naming convention for powers of ten. Some are grouped by three zeros as in many European languages but others are grouped by four zeros.


I didn't know the existence of these "Indian numerals".
Interesting.


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## DaylightDelight

Nino83 said:


> Or do you write 20,0000 instead of 200,000?


No. With Arabic numerals, we separate them by three digits: 12,345,678
And yes, it's somewhat confusing even to us. Except for very math-oriented people, many people (including me) cannot decipher large numbers at first glance.  In my case, in order to decipher 12,345,678 I have to count the digits to decide what's the largest order.


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## ktdd

haha, easy
1,000 <= this is 千
1,000,000 <= this is 百万
1,000,000,000 <= this is 十億
use the comma as an anchor and you'll know how to pronounce the digit next to it


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## DaylightDelight

It only shows that you are much better at numbers than I. 
I really need to count the digits if the number is greater than 100,000.


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## Nino83

DaylightDelight said:


> And yes, it's somewhat confusing even to us.


Actually, those countries which have the Chinese numeral system have high scores in mathematics (Japan included). 


Spoiler: 2012 PISA rankings in mathematics




1. Shanghai (China)
2. Singapore
3. Hong Kong (China)
4. Taiwan
5. South Korea
6. Macao (China)
7. Japan
8. Liechtenstein
9. Switzerland
10. Netherlands
11. Estonia
12. Finland
http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf


On the other hand it is true that in Europe daily school hour is shorter than in Korea and Japan (in fact many people wonder how Finnish scores, with European daily school hour, are as high as the Korean, Chinese and Japanese ones. Maybe it's because you, Korean excluded, spend some hours studying kanji).


ktdd said:


> haha, easy


Yes, it's probably a matter of habit.
It's interesting the fact that you follow two different systems, writing with the Hindu-Arabic numerals and thinking according to the Chinese system.
The Hindu-Arabic system supplanted other systems (the additive-subtractive ones, like the Roman system or the multiplicative-additive ones, like the Chinese system) because it is easier for calculations and it doesn't need an _abacus_ or a _suanpan_.


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## ktdd

Nino83 said:


> Maybe it's because you, Korean excluded, spend some hours studying kanji


Ha, probably true. You've no idea how many hours we spent writing them over and over and over in primary schools! And the added trouble for Japanese kids: multiple readings...

======
It's an interesting topic. Japanese used to have their own complete system. You already know 1-10 ひとつ、ふたつ……とお but there are more to it.
10 in compounds is そ (so 30 is みそ, 40 よそ... but)
20 is はたち
100 is もも when used alone and ほ in combination (so 500 is いほｰ>sound change->いお). The family name 五百蔵 is pronounced いおろい. Greengrocer in Japanese is 八百屋(やおや, old spelling やほや).
1000 is ち. The little girl in "Spirited Away" is ちひろ(千尋). Also it's probably not a coincidence that katakana チ is derived from kanji 千.
10000 is よろづ. The phrase 八百万の神々(やおよろずのかみがみ) means literally "8,000,000 gods" and figuratively "the many many gods". (This and 五百蔵 I learned from another manga "Mushishi" ).
The intermediate numbers, though I don't know the details, are said to be formed like とおあまりひとつ (one more than ten => 11). Obviously a cumbersome system, and was soon driven out by the Chinese system from most areas.


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## DaylightDelight

LOL, ktdd, you keep impressing me with your linguistic and historical knowledge on Japanese!
A small correction:


ktdd said:


> 20 is はたち


20 is はた or はつ.  二十日（はつか=20 days）二十歳（はたち=20 years old）十重二十重（とえ はたえ=manyfold）


ktdd said:


> Also it's probably not a coincidence that katakana チ is derived from kanji 千.


Correct


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## Nino83

ktdd said:


> Japanese used to have their own complete system.


You're like 鷹栖先生 of 日本人の知らない日本語 

Could someone write these numbers using the native Old Japanese numeral system?

100; C; 百
333; CCCXXXIII; 三百三十三
444; CDXLIV; 四百四十四
555; DLV; 五百五十五 
1151; ĪCLI; 千百五十一


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## ktdd

これは、 いたみいります！ lol
I bet that series is the favorite of many language learners! But it's really very high level, very hard to follow... I just wish I could one day speak like those students haha.


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## Nino83

英語字幕のおかげで「日本人の知らない日本語」を分かりました！ (There will be some mistake in this sentence, surely, lol)

I give it a try:
100; C; 百; momo
333; CCCXXXIII; 三百三十三; miho amari miso amari mi(ttsu)
444; CDXLIV; 四百四十四; yoho amari yoso amari yo(ttsu)
555; DLV; 五百五十五; iho amari iso amari itsu(tsu)
1151; ĪCLI; 千百五十一; chi amari momo amari iso amari hito(tsu)


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## Flaminius

DaylightDelight said:


> 二十歳（はたち=20 years old）




A tinier correction.  -ち for はたち and -じ/ぢ for ここのそじ are not "year" or "age."  Wikipedia (s.v. 数詞)
 says:
ただし、現代日本語で和語の数詞が普通に用いられるのは「ひとつ」 (1) から「とお」 (10) までに限られ、数としては「はたち」 (20) が年齢について専ら用いられるに過ぎない。本来は数（あるいは個数）を表した「みそじ」 (30)、「よそじ」 (40) などには「三十路」、「四十路」という漢字が当てられ、「じ (ぢ)」が年齢を表す助数詞（単位）である「歳」または「歳代」を意味する接尾辞のように誤解されている。あるいは、「はつか」 (20 日)、「みそか」 (30 日) のような形（カは、複数のヒ（日）を表す）、さらには、「いすず」 (五十鈴、「い」が 50 という意味の数詞)、「ちとせ」 (千年、千歳、「ち」は 1000 の意味) などの形で、多くは固有名詞の中で痕跡的に用いられるのみである。​


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## M Mira

I have another question regarding the number 50: how were "isuzu" and "igarashi" formed? Were they contracted from "iso-suzu" and "iso-arashi" or was "i" an unrelated word for "50"?


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## DaylightDelight

Flaminius said:


> A tinier correction. -ち for はたち and -じ/ぢ for ここのそじ are not "year" or "age."


Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks.


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## frequency

M Mira said:


> I have another question regarding the number 50: how were "isuzu" and "igarashi" formed? Were they contracted from "iso-suzu" and "iso-arashi" or was "i" an unrelated word for "50"?



何故 五十嵐と書いて（いがらし）
Long ago "fifty" used to be pronounced as _ika_, according to this page. 五十嵐 used to be written as 五十足, _ikatarasi_, but it has changed to _igarashi_ over time.

We still use i for 五.

We have the river called Isuzugawa in Ise Jinguu. The river used to be _Ikasuzugawa_? Maybe yes, but I'm not sure if people agree with me.
I couldn't find much information on the word origin of isuzu.


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## Flaminius

It is difficult to find referenced explanation so I am doing my own research.

In 日本書紀 (_The Chronicles of Japan_), the first official history of this country, all but one instances of phonetic 五十 (noting the pronunciation of a proper noun) was read _i_.  The exception is 五十猛命, which is read either _*Iso*takeru_ or _*I*takeru_ (_no mikoto_).  An obvious example is 五十葺山, 膽吹山 or 伊服岐能山 (in 古事記), which is present day 伊吹山 (_Ibukiyama_).  五十鈴 in the Chronicles is part of the place name 五十鈴川, and there is no indication that this river has ever been *_Ikasuzugawa_.

There is an opinion that at least some Igarashi families descend from a legendary prince named _Ikatarashi-hiko_.  The Chronicles spells his name 五十日足彦.  Here again, 五十 is for _i_.  He had a step-sister named 膽香足姬 (胆香足姫 in modern spelling).  This is best read _Ikatarashi-hime_.  The monosyllable _i_ (胆) is an autochthonous word for organs, not to be confused with 胃.  Its Modern Chinese pronunciation being _wei_, 胃 would probably been read ゐ (wi), the same pronunciation as 謂.  We have an excavated document that uses 謂 for _wi_ (参河国額田郡謂我郷, present day 位賀郷, _Igagō_).  The three characters have the same pinyin; _wei_.  Here is a list of 万葉仮名 or phonetic usages of Chinese characters.  It is safe to assume that the Old Japanese word for fifty was either *_i_ or *_iso_, without /w/.

Now, _ika_ seems to be the root of the adjective いかし or solemn.  It is found as part of the name of an ancient reigning empress.  The indigenous title of Empress Kōgyoku was 天豐財重日足姬.  The Chronicle inserts an official annotation for pronouncing this title; 重日、此云伊柯之比.  伊柯之比 is generally understood as _ikashihi_ and 重 is supposed to represent the meaning of _ikashi_.

A much later document (『丹哥府志』; _Tankafushi_, completed in the 18th century) mentions that Ikatarashi ruled a village called _Ika_ (五十日) in Tango.  The name of his demesne may have given the lord his name.

The Chronicles has a few members of the royal clan who has _tarashi_ in their names.  If _tarashi_ is related to _tarishi_ in _Ametarishi-hiko_, it should mean something like descending (from heaven), a suitable name for a member of the heavenly clan.  _Ametarishi-hiko_ (阿毎多利思比孤) is the title of the leader of the Yamato regime in the letter he sent to Emperor Wen of Sui.  _Tongdian_ (通典, a combination of encyclopedia and comments to histories) explains that it means 天兒 in Chinese.  This is how _ametarishi_ is thought to mean "descending from heaven."

Whether _Ikatarashi_ means Solemnly Descending or Descending from Ika, or Heavenly Descendant in Ika, I am unable to ascertain how it shrank to Igarashi.  It may be a result of haplology by which I mean the phenomenon of deleting one of the two syllables that have the same or similar consonants, e.g., temporary -> tempory.


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