# 敬語 towards 3rd person



## adexx

Hello,

This is a popular topic I guess, but I'd like to ask about the way to use 敬語 when talking about a 3rd person (not present in the conversation), which hasn't been covered much.
Let's say you (A) & B are talking about person C who is not present. Would you use 敬語 towards C in the case:
1) B is your customer and C is your boss
I think, generally you don't use 敬語 for your own group (company), so it means that in front of a customer you don't use 敬語 for your boss?
But would that appear not very polite since it's a boss (or maybe a VIP director in your company) you're referring to?
2) B is your boss and C is your customer
Customers should always be important right? But is it necessary if you're only talking internally about them? 
And what if C is not a very high ranking person (e.g. just a normal staff)?
3) None of you belong to the same group (company), but B & C are senior to you
E.g. you are talking with a professor about another professor

I recently read somewhere that 敬語 depends on the relationship between the speaker (A) and the person you refer to (C), not between the speaker (A) and the listener (B)... Is this true?

Sorry for the long post..


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## karlalou

Hi,


adexx said:


> 1) B is your customer and C is your boss
> I think, generally you don't use 敬語 for your own group (company), so it means that in front of a customer you don't use 敬語 for your boss?


Right. No 敬語 for your boss in your words to your customer.


> But would that appear not very polite since it's a boss (or maybe a VIP director in your company) you're referring to?


When we are new at an office for example, it's natural to feel that way, but if we use 敬語 for anyone our side to a guest, it sounds inappropriate.



adexx said:


> 2) B is your boss and C is your customer
> Customers should always be important right? But is it necessary if you're only talking internally about them?
> And what if C is not a very high ranking person (e.g. just a normal staff)?


Right. It's not necessary when talking internally, but it's still nothing wrong to use 敬語.



adexx said:


> 3) None of you belong to the same group (company), but B & C are senior to you
> E.g. you are talking with a professor about another professor


We use 敬語 for both of them.



adexx said:


> I recently read somewhere that 敬語 depends on the relationship between the speaker (A) and the person you refer to (C), not between the speaker (A) and the listener (B)... Is this true?


It can not be true.


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## Flaminius

A 4th case is for all involved in the conversation belonging to the same group.  If the absent member is your boss, the need for the honorific speech is more than for case 3.  Your boss will not be pleased to overhear you talk about them with the plain speech.


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## frequency

adexx said:


> 敬語 depends on the relationship between the speaker (A) and the person you refer to (C), not between the speaker (A) and the listener (B)... Is this true?


I tell my boss about our customer Cさん. I should say 「Cさんがおみえになりました。」　「Cさんが来ました。」 isn't good. I'm showing politeness to Cさん, not to my boss. Roughly understandable?


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## adexx

Thank you all!

One more question, in case 3 where the listener and the 3rd person are both outside group, is it necessary to you humble language to talk about our own actions or is the standard ます form enough?

Also, in case  1 when we talk about our boss with a customer, would it be appropriate to use humble language for our boss' action (same side) ? It's natural to use humble language for ourselves but is it Ok to use it on behalf of another, despite being on the same group?


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## frequency

If you _report_ your action or fact, for example, わたくし本日は外出いたしますので、or わたくし明日は本社に戻りますので、▪▪speak in a usual but polite way. Yes. If you say わたくし本日は外出されますので、or わたくし明日は本社にお戻りになりますので、▪▪, you're showing politeness to yourself. Don't say like these ways.

When you talk to your familiar ojisan workmate in your group or firm, you don't need to be too polite.



adexx said:


> when we talk about our boss with a customer, would it be appropriate to use humble language for our boss' action (same side) ?


No. To your customer, say in a usual way. 山田(boss)は明日戻りますので、▪▪ You and your boss are in the same team, but your customer isn't.


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## adexx

Thank you frequency san,

So in case (1) when I want to talk about my boss' action with a customer, I shouldn't say something like "部長は○○*致します*" (e.g. "明日部長(my boss)は御社に伺いますので。。。", ”明日スズキは戻って参りますので。。。") ?


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## karlalou

adexx said:


> One more question, in case 3 where the listener and the 3rd person are both outside group, is it necessary to you humble language to talk about our own actions or is the standard ます form enough?


Yes, it's necessary.



adexx said:


> Also, in case 1 when we talk about our boss with a customer, would it be appropriate to use humble language for our boss' action (same side) ? It's natural to use humble language for ourselves but is it Ok to use it on behalf of another, despite being on the same group?


Yes, the humble form is to use for the action of your side, doesn't matter if he's the president of a big company and you are just an office clerk.



adexx said:


> So in case (1) when I want to talk about my boss' action with a customer, I shouldn't say something like "部長は○○*致します*" (e.g. "明日部長(my boss)は御社に伺いますので。。。") ?


Say （うちの =our）部長は出席致します.
明日、部長が御社に伺いますので is fine.

This is the official guide lines. Look for 謙譲語. Use a browser ad-on tool to search the word.


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## frequency

Good question.


adexx said:


> 明日部長(my boss)は御社に伺いますので。。。"


（御社に）伺います・お伺い致します are very useful expressions. I think I basically say お伺い致します instead of 行きます, 参ります, or 訪問します. Try Google. It might give you interesting information.



> 御社に伺いますので。。。", ”明日スズキは戻って参りますので。。。


You want to report Boss Suzuki will do these things tomorrow:
明日スズキは出社いたします。
明日スズキは昼まで打合せですので、
I'm using usual ways because these are just his actions.
明日スズキは戻って参りますので？This may be okay..I don't think it's horribly wrong, but 戻ります may be better.

If you want to offer or suggest to your customer, you need to change a lot:
明日スズキが御社に*伺います*ので、
明日スズキからお電話*さしあげるよう*に致しますので、

Because these are the actions from you (your boss) to your customer. Oh don't call your boss 部長 when you talk to your customer or to somebody external.


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## karlalou

The official guide lines says, on page 47:



> 改まった場面では「弊社の部長」，ややくだけた場面では「うちの部長」などと言うことで「田中」という名前に触れずに表現することもできる。その場合の「部長」は，単に職階を示していると考えられる。
> （……）
> また，社外の人が多くいる会の場合には，その人たちを立てる敬語を用いて「社長からごあいさつを申し上げます。」と言えば良い。





> ただし、「田中部長」と呼ぶことは，ウチ扱いにした呼び方にはならないので，不適切である。


When you talk inside the office without any guests, you call each other with さん. 田中さん is fine but sometimes 田中部長. It seems when used with a person's name, it's considered as a substitute for さん. 
However, the above article says when it's used without a person's name, a title name is just a title name.


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## frequency

_田中さんという名前に触れずに表現する_
In this particular situation,
_改まった場面では「弊社の部長」、ややくだけた場面では「うちの部長」などと言う。_
In #7 and in most cases in which he talks with his customer, adexx must use his boss's surname without the title.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

「*田中部長*から説明させていただきます。」
「弊社の*部長の田中*から説明させていただきます。」


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## frequency

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> 「弊社の*部長の田中*から説明させていただきます。」


Good. I missed the point:
「田中」と呼び捨てにする のはどうも抵抗がある。*特に田中部長が同席しているときに* 「田中」とは言いにくい
・・・・
「部長の田中」というように 「部長」を職階と して示した上でウチ扱いにして呼ぶことができる。ただし 「田中部長」と呼ぶことは、ウチ扱いにした呼び方にはならないので、不適切である。

ビジネスマナー（４）


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## adexx

Very complicated, but I'll try to remember all the rules...
Thanks so much everyone.


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## adexx

It just crossed my mind, but do we use 敬語 in these cases (talking to a senior person):
(1) "The shop seller *said* that this kind of sweets can be kept a long time, so don't worry"
(2) "Professor A *said* he would come late"
What would be the appropriate form of 言っていました here?


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## karlalou

adexx said:


> (talking to a senior person)





adexx said:


> What would be the appropriate form of 言っていました here?





adexx said:


> (1) "The shop seller *said* that this kind of sweets can be kept a long time, so don't worry"


In this case 尊敬語 sounds overly polite. 丁寧語 should be enough: お店の人がこういうお菓子は長持ちしますと言っていましたから、ご心配なく or 大丈夫でしょう[だと思います]。


adexx said:


> (2) "Professor A *said* he would come late"


Assuming Professor A is not your side, 尊敬語 sounds more decent: Ａ教授は遅くなるとおっしゃっていました[言っておられました]. We would also say Ａ教授は遅くなるそうです.


By the way, I've found a good example of a humble form in the official guidelines.
We say 今週末は妹のところに参ります (I am going to visit my younger sister this weekend), or 子供たちが参りました (Children have arrived).

参ります is to show respect to the listener. (I think it's more like 丁寧語 since it's not necessarily to talk about your own actions.)

When talking to 加藤先生：


> ①田中先生のところに参ります。 →加藤先生に対して丁重に述べたもので， 田中先生を立てているわけではない。
> ③田中先生のところに伺います。 →田中先生を立てて述べたもの。
> the official guidelines (p38)


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## frequency

A relationship decides, as you said.
If professor A is somebody unimportant for you and your senior person, you don't need honolifics:


adexx said:


> 言っていました


If professor A is your important business partner or your supervisor, use honolifics even when you speak about him to a third person.

You said "shop seller" in your 1, so I think you mentioned him as an unimportant third person for you and the hearer. You don't need honolifics as well. You call him _~san_ if he is your important customer, and you would use honolifics.

You don't need to show honolifics to your family member when you speak about him or her to somebody. Then if you use 参ります, your speech would sound polite. This is different to the fact you are showing honolifics.
Even to us, showing honolifics is something makes us tired lol. And don't forget you and people in your firm are _miuchi_, but other people are not, if in any business or financial relationship. To people not _miuchi_ but important for you, try to use honolifics first.


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## adexx

Thank you both, that was helpful!


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## adexx

By the way ... (sorry for the additional question), is it better to stick to using one consistent form of speech such as the simple but polite ます, or is it not a problem to mix up 尊敬語・謙譲語・丁寧語 in one's speech?

I'm trying to use 警護 for work (with senior colleagues, bosses, customers) but always forget from time to time, so I may say something like ~させていただきます this time and then  ~してよろしいですか the next .. Does it sound strange/unnatural to native speakers' ears?

Just a random thought.. Thanks if you can share your opinion.


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## frequency

adexx said:


> using one consistent form of speech such as the simple but polite ます, or is it not a problem to mix up 尊敬語・謙譲語・丁寧語 in one's speech?


Sorry, I need more information and to know background.



adexx said:


> I may say something like ~させていただきます this time and then ~してよろしいですか


In your 警護 work, you want to say these ways, do you? For example, you'd say チェックさせていただきます。 or チェックしてよろしいですか？ to your senior colleagues, bosses, and customers. Very good! Am I answering your question?


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## adexx

Thank you for the quick response.

Let me give some examples:

 "ただ今この仕事を担当*しております*。でもあんまりうまく*いっていないです*。"
-> Using both modest *しております* and normal *いっていないです *in one speech.
Or
"明日帰国*されます*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。”
-> Switching back and forth between the honorific *されます *and the normal *ます* form.

My question was, does it sound OK? Or should I use a consistent form of speech, such as 
- "今この仕事を担当*しています*。でもあんまりうまく*いっていないです*。"
- "明日帰国*します*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。”

Thank you


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## frequency

Oh oh adexx, you're perfect.  I have nothing more to say. No worries.



adexx said:


> "今この仕事を担当*しています*。でもあんまりうまく*いっていないです*。"
> - "明日帰国*します*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。”


You may think they're a bit casual.

In the first one, it sounds like you're talking with your (senior) colleague or boss.
Is the second conversation with your customer? If so, they might be a bit casual. Your されます ones may be better. With your colleague or boss? I think they're okay. (At least, in my office people are speaking  with their boss in this way.)


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## adexx

Thank you very much frequency san,

But I think there is a misunderstanding... 
My actual question is not "which form is better", because in business (especially with customers/clients) it is obviously that keigo goes all the way.. 
But I'd like to know, "if I try to use keigo, but fail to use it all the time in a consistent way, does it sound strange? (e.g. "明日帰国*されます*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。”-> sound a bit strange?)" 
Instead, would it be better that I use the normal V*ます *form but at least I remember to use them in the same way, all the time? (so people would not think that I'm trying to learn keigo but still a hit & miss?)

I hope I made myself clear...


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## frequency

Do you mean a consistent way is better in keigo?
For example,


adexx said:


> "明日帰国*されます*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。”-> sound a bit strange?)


明日帰国*されます*ね。どの航空会社を*使います*か。is okay, and
明日帰国*されます*ね。どの航空会社を*使われます*か。is okay, too.

You may think you're mixing されます (polite) and 使います(normal) up in the first one, but it's okay. It's confusing and annoying, but we're casually and randomly mixing them up according to our mood, feeling, relationship, etc. If you think it's too hard and confusing, I recommend you use polite way like in the second one, from beginning to end.
Am I answering your question?


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## adexx

Yes, that's exactly what I was wondering about! 
Actually I'm not worried about mixing it up, I just want to know how the listeners feel about that  Because Im not a native speaker so I can't get the nuance...

Thanks a lot!


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## frequency

You're welcome. Good to hear that! You're really good at Japanese, so I'm sure that you will master keigo gradually. Post your questions anytime.


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