# mir



## Icetrance

Guten Abend.

Was bedeutet "mir" hier? The person doesn't want his parents to pick his spouse for him.

_Ich will *mir* meinen Ehepartner selbst suchen._

I would like to find my future spouse myself.

mir = to me?

Danke


----------



## elroy

It wouldn't normally be translated into English, because it's redundant.

But think of colloquial sentences like "I want to buy *me *a new car."  It's the same idea.


----------



## Icetrance

elroy said:


> It wouldn't normally be translated into English, because it's redundant.
> 
> But think of colloquial sentences like "I want to buy *me *a new car." It's the same idea.


 
Thanks!

I know what that's called. I can't think of it. 

Warum sagt mann nicht "Ich will/möchte *mich* einen Ehepartner selbst suchen"?


----------



## GoKyu

Icetrance said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I know what that's called. I can't think of it.
> 
> Warum sagt mann nicht "Ich will/möchte *mich* einen Ehepartner selbst suchen"?



Because "Ehepartner" is the direct object in this sentence (i.e. in the accusative case), so if you need to use a reflexive word, it can't also be accusative (mich) - it would need to be dative (mir.)

Hope this helps 

     -Bryan


----------



## Hutschi

In some regions you can hear the form with "mich" but this is not standard language.


----------



## Frank78

elroy said:


> It wouldn't normally be translated into English, because it's redundant.
> 
> But think of colloquial sentences like "I want to buy *me *a new car."  It's the same idea.



The same redundancy in German. Just "Ich will meinen Ehepartner selbst suchen" would be fine.

"mir...selbst" = myself


----------



## brian

GoKyu said:


> Because "Ehepartner" is the direct object in this sentence (i.e. in the accusative case), so if you need to use a reflexive word, it can't also be accusative (mich) - it would need to be dative (mir.)



Just a minor point: you can of course have double accusatives in German--_Das habe ich mich gefragt_--but of course _mich_ here functions quite differently from _mir_ in the sentence we are dealing with.


----------



## Quelle

"Mir" here is used as a reflexive pronoun. It's like: für mich
Another verb used in a similiar way: sich etwas kaufen
Ich kaufe mir ein Auto. = Ich kaufe ein Auto für mich.


----------



## ABBA Stanza

We discussed this subject in detail quite recently here.

Having said that, the it's a German-only thread, so it's a bit of a Catch-22 situation. In order to know the answer to this question, one should read the other thread. But in order to be able to [know enough German to] read the other thread, one must already know the answer to this question first... 

Abba


----------



## Icetrance

Quelle said:


> "Mir" here is used as a reflexive pronoun. It's like: für mich
> Another verb used in a similiar way: sich etwas kaufen
> Ich kaufe mir ein Auto. = Ich kaufe ein Auto für mich.


 
This is not a reflexive verb, but rather what can go with "selbst" to stress "myself." The dative is preferred.

_Ich kann mir es machen selbst._

I've heard "mich" instead of "mir", but it's not "Hochdeutsch."


----------



## mobiusro

Well, there are the reflexives verbs which have that "etwas":

*sich etwas kaufen*
*sich etwas suchen* etc 

where this "*etwas*" is accusative so the reflexiv pronoun must be in dative. 

There are also some exceptions like:

*jemandem helfen* - _Das Maedchen hilft meinem Vater_. This verb will always be with dative as it is somehow understood by the Germans as "to give help to smbdy"

@brian8733 - *sich etwas fragen* and *sich fragen* have two different meanings so no point in saying you can have two accusatives, especially that these "two" accusatives are in different sentences, one in the Hauptsatz and the other in the Nebensatz. The rule is valid for the same sentence, not when they are in different ones. *At least this is how I know and understand it, correct me if I am wrong please.*

@Icetrance - I wouldn't say it's not "Hochdeutsch", I would just say it's pure ignorance. In your home country does everyone speak your language gramatically correct? No. Umgang doesn't mean speaking German with gramatical mistakes and Hochdeutsch speaking it gramatically correct. 

One must be careful with many so called "helpful" people, as some of them might know things wrong, but knowing that you are not a native speaker, they will "correct" you in a wrong way.


----------



## Hutschi

Icetrance said:


> This is not a reflexive verb, but rather what can go with "selbst" to stress "myself." The dative is preferred.
> 
> _Ich kann mir *das selbst machen*. (Note: the infinite verb is at the end of the sentence - even when used with "mir".)_
> 
> I've heard "mich" instead of "mir", but it's not "Hochdeutsch."


 
This usually comes from a regional dialect. I disagree that it is purely ignorance but it is a difficulty in some regions.

There is the ironic saying: "Mir und mich verwechsle ich nicht, das kommt bei mich nicht vor." - Which is in proper standard German : "Mir und mich verwechsle ich nicht, das kommt bei *mir *nicht vor."


----------



## Robocop

Frank78 said:


> The same redundancy in German. Just "Ich will meinen Ehepartner selbst suchen" would be fine.


I disagree completely! The statement above makes me think that your partner has gone missing. You would have to say, "ich will meinen Ehepartner selbst aussuchen".

- etwas suchen = look for something that went missing
- sich etwas suchen (sich etwas aussuchen ) = look for something "new" (which you have not had so far or which shall be replaced)
- etwas aussuchen = choose something


----------



## brian

mobiusro said:


> @brian8733 - *sich etwas fragen* and *sich fragen* have two different meanings so no point in saying you can have two accusatives, especially that these "two" accusatives are in different sentences, one in the Hauptsatz and the other in the Nebensatz. The rule is valid for the same sentence, not when they are in different ones. *At least this is how I know and understand it, correct me if I am wrong please.*



I agree that they can have two different meanings, but that doesn't negate the fact that *sich etwas fragen* has a double (two) accusatives: the sentence must not necessarily contain a _Nebensatz_. Simple example: _Das habe ich mich gefragt._ One _Hauptsatz_, no _Nebensatz_, two accusatives.

A sentence with a _Haupt-_ and _Nebensatz_ would be something like: _Ich habe mich gefragt, ob Du heute Abend vorbeikommst. _Here, you are correct, there is only one accusative (_mich_, in the _Hauptsatz_), and then there is the _Nebesatz_ (_ob..._). But this is different from the above example.


----------



## Icetrance

mobiusro said:


> but knowing that you are not a native speaker, they will "correct" you in a wrong way.



Ja, das ist sehr wahr. It's happened me many times while learning French.


----------



## Hutschi

There is no simple rule which object you have to use.
It depends on the verb.

In some cases it is not easy because they look almost equal.

Ich nehme mir (dative) ein Buch (accusative). 
Ich nehme mich (accusative) nicht ernst. - The verb is "ernstnehmen".

Maybe you have to look up examples for each case in the beginning.

As rule of thumb: there are very few verbs with two accusative objects.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gnJGHffzkuAC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=verbs+with+%22two+accusative+objects&source=web&ots=-Rxar3hTWR&sig=QnqGUd8OMDC-ddx7zq8t4WjhkSM&hl=de&ei=JoSUSb2jHoKO0AX3ibz8CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

gives:

heißen, kosten, lehren, nennen, rufen, schelten, schimpfen, and taufen.

Er heißt mich willkommen. 
Es kostet mich ein Lächeln.
Er lehrt mich Physik.


----------



## Frank78

"Er lehrt mich Physik." 

This sounds horrible. I´d prefer  "Er lehrt mir Physik"


----------



## Robocop

Frank78 said:


> "Er lehrt mich Physik."
> *This sounds horrible*. I´d prefer  "Er lehrt mir Physik"


It is *the other way round* for me! But this has already been discussed in some other thread.


----------



## Frank78

How do ask then?

Wen lehrt er Physik?    Mich.


----------



## Hutschi

Yes. This is right. I agree, it sounds horrible - but this is personal opinion. 
In my home dialect it is "mir" and "wem" in this case, but this is wrong in standard German.

For this thread it is only important that "mir" is correct for the most verbs with some exceptions with "mich".


----------



## Frank78

Hutschi said:


> Yes. This is right. I agree, it sounds horrible - but this is personal opinion.
> In my home dialect it is "mir" and "wem" in this case, but this is wrong in standard German.
> 
> For this thread it is only important that "mir" is correct for the most verbs with some exceptions with "mich".



I´m not sure what is the dialect here. I think "Er lehrte mich Physik" , "Ich liebe dir" und "Gib mich die Pille" are more likely to be called dialects.


----------



## Quelle

Hierzu Zwiebelfisch:
In der Standardsprache wird heute nach _lehren_ der doppelte Akkusativ gebraucht: 

Sie lehrt ihn das Klavierspiel.
Er lehrt sie das Tangotanzen.
In einer Welt, die ihnen vorschrieb, wie man lebt, lehrte sie sie, wie man denkt.​Das war jedoch nicht immer so...


----------



## Frank78

Oder etwas tiefgründiger: 

http://www.ds.uzh.ch/lehrstuhlduerscheid/docs/semarb/Lang-doppelter_Akkusativ-07.pdf


----------



## Icetrance

Hier, bedeutet _mir_ "for myself". _Mich_ bedeutet etwas anderes (even though it is used in some dialects to "for myself").


----------

