# Perfective verb with multiple imperfective forms



## Interprete

Hello,

I'm getting really confused with perfective verbs which seem to have several imperfective forms.

For example, Когда я пошѐл, провалился в институт в Харьков ... и отправился в армию... Был я *острижен*.
I didn't know this verb in bold, so I looked it up, and the dictionary gives me two imperfective forms for остри́чь : one which the perfective seems to be based on (стричь) and another one which seems to be 'reverse-engineered' from the perfective : острига́ть.

But do стричь and острига́ть, both imperfective, have the same meaning? They don't seem to be synonymous. So how do I know which of the two should be paired with острижен in this sentence?

I get the same problem just one sentence later in the same text, with Новую форму у нас тут же отобрал старшина и выдал такие жуткие лохмотья, мотивируя это тем, что мы ещѐ форму носить не умеем, новую хорошую быстро *истреплем*.
Should this perfective form (истрепАть) be paired with трепать or with истёрпывать?

Thanks!


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## Vadim K

Interprete said:


> ист*рё*пывать



The impefrective form of the verb "_истрепать_" is "_истрёпывать_".

"_Был острижен_" is a passive voice. The corresponding verbs in the active voice which are in imperfective form are "_стричь_" or "_подстригать_". The perfective form of the verb "_стричь_" is "_остричь_" and the perfective form of the verb "_подстригать_" is "_подстричь_".

As for the verb "_остригать_" I am not sure if there is in fact this verb in Russian. At least there is no such verb in the Russian wiktionary. For the moment I am only aware of the verb "_*об*стригать_".


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## Interprete

How confusing   I need to re-read your post about a dozen more times and I'll get back to you 

In the meantime I actually found остригать on wiktionary: остригать - Wiktionary


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## Interprete

Reading your post again: why do you associate острижен with both стричь and подстригать, but later specify that подстригать goes with подстричь instead of остричь?


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## Maroseika

The verb остригать is mentioned in all Russian dictionaries (Ожегов, Ушаков, Кузнецов, Ефремова).
However the problem, as far as I understand, is just terminological. Strictly speaking, стричь and остричь are two different verbs rather than Imperfective-Perfective pair. Any new prefix forms new verb, which usually may be Perfective or Imperfective depending on the suffix. Verbs without prefixes are mostly Imperfective.
In particluar, стричь is only Imperfective, and остричь-остригать is a pair.
The same is истрепать - истрёпывать, while трепать is only Imperfective.

Острижен is short participle from остричь.
The same form of подстричь is пострижен.


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## Interprete

Maroseika said:


> The verb остригать is mentioned in all Russian dictionaries (Ожегов, Ушаков, Кузнецов, Ефремова).
> However the problem, as far as I understand, is just terminological. Strictly speaking, стричь and остричь are two different verbs rather than Imperfective-Perfective pair. Any new prefix forms new verb, which usually may be Perfective or Imperfective depending on the suffix. Verbs without prefixes are mostly Imperfective.
> In particluar, стричь is only Imperfective, and остричь-остригать is a pair.
> The same is истрепать - истрёпывать, while трепать is only Imperfective.
> 
> Острижен is short participle from остричь.
> The same form from подстричь is пострижен.


Thank you! But then, in my own learning method, I try to memorise new verbs with their perfective and imperfective forms. So since остричь came up in this text (in the form of острижен), which imperfective should I write down on my flashcard to go with it? остригать? 
If the guy wanted to say that he was having his hair cut every day, or basically if острижен was supposed to express an action requiring the use of the imperfective form, which one would you use?


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## Maroseika

Interprete said:


> So since остричь came up in this text (in the form of острижен), which imperfective should I write down on my flashcard to go with it? остригать?


Yes.


> If the guy wanted to say that he was having his hair cut every day, or basically if острижен was supposed to express an action requiring the use of the imperfective form, which one would you use?


If you want to use the verb стричься: Он стригся каждый день.
Also gramatically correct is: Он остригался каждый день, but it would sound very bad.


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## Vadim K

Maroseika said:


> In particluar, стричь is only Imperfective



The Russian wiktionary would not agree with you

стричь — Викисловарь


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## Vadim K

Interprete said:


> If the guy wanted to say that he was having his hair cut every day



He would say "_Меня стригли каждый день_".


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## Maroseika

Vadim K said:


> The Russian wiktionary would not agree with you
> 
> стричь — Викисловарь


I'm afraid I cannot see there anything different.


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## Vadim K

Maroseika said:


> Он остригался каждый день



To be honest I can't imagine that any Russian speaker ever says this phrase.


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## Maroseika

Vadim K said:


> To be honest I can't imagine that any Russian speaker ever says this phrase.


Me too. But formally this is correct, so I just meant to explain how it works in this example.


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## Vadim K

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid I cannot see there anything different.



I might not have understood your correctly but I meant that the verb "_стричь_" doesn't have only an imperfective form. And the verb "_остричь_" is one of the perfective form of this verb.


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## Maroseika

Vadim K said:


> I might not have understood your correctly but I meant that the verb "_стричь_" doesn't have only an imperfective form. And the verb "_остричь_" is one of the perfective form of this verb.


Yes, I think there is terminological confusion, which I meantioned in my first post. The verb стричь is only Imperfective, while its prefixed derivatives have two forms. However I'm not sure that it is convinient to consider all these derivatives as the forms of the "initial" verb, because it may cause big confusion, as we can see in this thread. What exactly verb is "perfective" form of стричь? It has at least 14 prefixed derivatives, and hardly any of them matches Perfective sense of стричь precisely enough. With other verbs semantic difference may be even wider.
So I think better handling each prefixed derivative as a single verb with (usually) two forms - Perfective and Imperfective, while initial verb like стричь is only Imperfective.


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## Vadim K

Maroseika said:


> Yes, I think there is terminological confusion, which I meantioned in my first post. The verb стричь is only Imperfective, while its prefixed derivatives have two forms. However I'm not sure that it is convinient to consider all these derivatives as the forms of the "initial" verb, because it may cause big confusion, as we can see in this thread. What exactly verb is "perfective" form of стричь? There are at least 14 prefixed derivatives after all, and hardly any of them expresses Perfective sense of стричь precisely enough. With other verbs semantic difference may be even wider.
> So I think better handle each derivative as a single verb with two forms - Perfective and Imperfective, while initial verb like стричь is only Imperfective.



Ok, thank you. Now I have understood better what you would like to say with that.


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## Vovan

*Interprete*, in everyday Russian we tend to use "остричь" and "острижен" in specific contexts (the Army, becoming a monk, etc.; also in formal descriptions and literary texts).
_Волосы у грабителя были коротко острижены, вспомнила свидетельница преступления.
Он был коротко острижен._​The imperfective form would be "остригать" in an ordinary Russian's opinion, I think. It's only natural this way.

When we speak about cutting one's hair in more usual contexts, we use "по(д)стричь(ся)" ("по(д)стригать(ся)") and "по(д)стрижен(ный)".
"Стричь(ся)" is also commonly used as the imperfective of "по(д)стричь(ся)".

Probably, a purist would say that there's a difference between "постричь(ся)" and "подстричь(ся), the latter meaning "to cut your hair just a little; to trim your hair".

_Мне все равно, где стричься.
Мне нравится, как стригут в той парикмахерской.
Мне пора подстричься. Не могу нормально причесать волосы.
Где здесь можно постричься, не подскажете?
Она плохо меня подстригла.
Она стригла его два часа!
Его постригли в монахи.
Он был пострижен под "ёжика"._​


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## Vovan

Interprete said:


> Should this perfective form (истрепАть) be paired with трепать or with истёрпывать?


"Трепать - истрепать". (A pair in "normal" language, not theoretically.)
_Собака плюшевого мишку всего истрепала.
Хватить трепать мне нервы!_​"Истрёпывать" looks like "reverse-engineered", as you call it. It's not used that often, I guess. It's emphatic in a way.

But I should note that other perfective forms of "трепать" do exist as well. "Оттрепать", "потрепать" are among them.

"Потрепать" is mild (do a bit of трепание, for a short time); "оттрепать" is strong (do a great deal of трепание; often: оттрепать хороше́нько); "истрепать" means to wear out to a degree by трепание: истрепались брюки, новые надо покупать).

Note that "трепать" has a few meanings and relevant contexts!


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## Ben Jamin

Interprete said:


> Thank you! But then, in my own learning method, I try to memorise new verbs with their perfective and imperfective forms. So since остричь came up in this text (in the form of острижен), which imperfective should I write down on my flashcard to go with it? остригать?
> If the guy wanted to say that he was having his hair cut every day, or basically if острижен was supposed to express an action requiring the use of the imperfective form, which one would you use?


The way of teaching Slavic to foreigners is mostly based on the false assumption that the difference between perfective and imperfective verbs is purely grammatical. Actually the difference is principally lexical, and the possibility of strict lexical pairing of p. and i. verbs is possible only under certain conditions.
Apart from secondary imperfective verbs formed from the perfective verb there is almost always a difference in lexical meaning. Moreover, it is very common for a primary imperfective verb to have many related perfective verbs.


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## Q-cumber

Ben Jamin said:


> The way of teaching Slavic to foreigners is mostly based on the false assumption that the difference between perfective and imperfective verbs is purely grammatical. Actually the difference is principally lexical, and the possibility of strict lexical pairing of p. and i. verbs is possible only under certain conditions.
> Apart from secondary imperfective verbs formed from the perfective verb there is almost always a difference in lexical meaning. Moreover, it is very common for a primary imperfective verb to have many related perfective verbs.


Also it's worth mentioning that some Russian verbs don't have matching verbs of other aspect. 
181. Глаголы, не имеющие парных форм другого вида: К глаголам непарным несовершенного вида относятся: а) бесприставочные


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## Ben Jamin

Q-cumber said:


> Also it's worth mentioning that some Russian verbs don't have matching verbs of other aspect.
> 181. Глаголы, не имеющие парных форм другого вида: К глаголам непарным несовершенного вида относятся: а) бесприставочные


The same is valid of Polish, and I believe also in other Slavic languages.


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## Rosett

Q-cumber said:


> Also it's worth mentioning that some Russian verbs don't have matching verbs of other aspect.
> 181. Глаголы, не имеющие парных форм другого вида: К глаголам непарным несовершенного вида относятся: а) бесприставочные


Интересно, что глаголу "стричь" соответствует редкий парный ему глагол совершенного (однократного) вида "стригнуть".


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## Interprete

Thanks everyone for your very precise comments. But then, based on the fact that one imperfective verb usually has many perfective ones thanks to the many prefixes that can be added to them, does it follow that perfective verbs are usually more specific in their meaning, while imperfective forms are usually more general in their meaning?


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## Maroseika

Interprete said:


> But then, based on the fact that one imperfective verb usually has many perfective ones thanks to the many prefixes that can be added to them, does it follow that perfective verbs are usually more specific in their meaning, while imperfective forms are usually more general in their meaning?


No one Imperfect verb has "many" Perfective ones. The latters are just the morphological derivatives, with separate meanings, often very different from that "initial" Imperfective verb. Moreover, the majority of these Perfective derivatives have their own Imperfective counterparts. With them they mostly differ only in one aspect - perfection/imperfection (and usually not in specificty/generality):
Стричь:
остричь - остригать
подстричь - подстригать
выстричь - выстригать
etc.


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## Interprete

I see, thanks everyone for your valuable explanations. I hope experience will help me see more clearly 

Thank you!


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