# round / wrong



## ThomasK

What is your word for 'round'? Could you check whether your language associates the concept 'round' with 'wrong'? 

I can give examples in Dutch: *'rond' *and especially *'om'* (around ?)
- *omkopen :* to bribe (to buy around, lit.)
- *een omweg*: a detour, a way around, the long way, not the straight way

-* een bocht maken *: to make a bend/ a turn (to do something deviating from the right way, I'd think, impredictable - and thus 'prove' your unreliability) 
- *hij wringt zich in bochten *maybe : to have to perform contortions


As you see: bends and turns have to do with being round, and contortion implies some turning around. So I am looking for references to the concept, not just to the word only.


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## arielipi

hebrew
round is a merely a shape in hebrew עגול agol.
for "going round" we use ס-ב-ב s-b/v-b/v root.
i can think of a connection with round and wrong
הולך סחור סחור
holech skhor skhor
going in circles [=doing something in the wrong way]


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## ThomasK

Oh yes, for a second I thought circles might be the origine of 'round', but I think '(a)round' just means not straight c.q. no straightforward, not right too perhaps. I suddenly thought of 'beating around the bush', which  implies 'not straight' again... But I am also referring to the preposition, as in 'round the table'.


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## arielipi

Ah precisely put Thomas!
In hebrew we have a word for walking in a not straight line, which is different than what i gave before.


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## ThomasK

What is that word, A? You're building up tension...


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> Oh yes, for a second I thought circles might be the origine of 'round', but I think '(a)round' just means not straight c.q. no straightforward, not right too perhaps.



I think the adjective you're looking for is *crooked *rather than _round. _

The preposition _*a*round _does fit most of the meanings you talk about, but the adjective (_round_) and the preposition are fundamentally different. Going "around" something doesn't necessarily mean going around the entire circumference of something -- it often (perhaps mostly) just means that you went around enough of the circumference to avoid touching it.


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## arielipi

ע-ק-מ
'-k-m
which is used for anything that is not straight in order (except for sex)


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## ThomasK

I agree: (_a)round _need not the entire circumference, as in_ round the corner_. But I think the examples I have given do show that at least an 'indirectness' is suggested by the use of 'round' . I do agree as well that _crooked _is the 'straight' (?) antonym of right. But when you look at the bending example, or when thinking of bending the rules, then it is suggested that one relaxes the straight rules, by making them longer. 

But there might be something else involved: 'round' is not so much 'wrong' as distorted.


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> I agree: (_a)round _need not the entire circumference, as in_ round the corner_. But I think the examples I have given do show that at least an 'indirectness' is suggested by the use of 'round' .


 
There is a connection between indirectness and going *a*round something, but I can't think of any examples right now where the English adjective _round_ signifies indirectness. Is the Dutch adjective *rond* ever used this way?



> But there might be something else involved: 'round' is not so much 'wrong' as distorted.



"roundness" and "distortion" can both be seen as different results of the process of "bending": e.g., both the word _curve_ (from Latin _curvus_ "crooked, bent") and the word circle are thought to go back to the same root **ker*- "bend".

The same root may underlie Slovene _*kr*og_ "circle" and _*kr*iv _"crooked".


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## ThomasK

Not 'rond' but 'om', as in my examples: _omkopen _implies paying someone so that he looks in another way (a 90 or 180 degree turn). Adn the English beating around the bush suggests something different but similar: one is not straight, not to the point, but goes around the hot issue. 

I just checked on the etymology because I thought there was a link with _ambi/ amfi (_maybe Apmoy will come up with something in Greek):


> Verwant met/ related with : Latijn _amb-_, _ambi-_ ‘*rond*om’, Oskisch _am_, Umbrisch _am-_, _an-_; Grieks _amphí_ ‘*aan beide kanten [on both sides]*, rondom’ (zie ook → *amfibie*); Sanskrit _abhí_; Oudiers _imb-_ ‘rondom’, Gallisch _ambi-_ ‘id.’; Albanees _mbi_ ‘op, naar’; < pie. _*h2m-bhi-_/_*h2em-bhi-_ (IEW 34).


So the funny thing is here that the meaning 'on both sides' appears to be so important, next to 'round-about'... Maybe there is a link with 'about' too but I cannot see it. And we associate 'om' with 'round' (o_m de stad, om de tafel -_ round the town/ table), etc.


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## arielipi

distorted is so horrid in hebrew, it actually is the same word used for disfiguration: ע-ו-ת '-v't


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> What is your word for 'round'? Could you check whether your language associates the concept 'round' with 'wrong'?



*Finnish*: Our word for 'round' is _pyöreä_. 'Around' is _ympäri_. I can't sense any connection with the idea of being 'wrong'.

*However*, the word for 'wrong' is _väärä_, which also means 'curved, not straight, crooked'. You might find this connection interesting.


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## ThomasK

Yes, that is the one. Oh yes, curved, _krom _in Dutch. Yes, that is another association I had not thought of, and which indeed holds in Dutch too, as in this pun: _het recht wordt krom_, right [justice] is becoming curved. But I think we are referring to the same conceptual basis.

Curve seems to refer to /kurtos/ in Greek. Wonder if Apmoy has any associations with regard to that or something else !


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## Yondlivend

Well the word *twisted* can have negative connotations, meaning perverse.

On the other hand *straight* can refer to moral correctness.  To *rectify* means to fix something that's wrong.  *Crooked* has already been mentioned.

If you *turn on* someone that can mean you betray them.


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## aruniyan

In Tamil, nothing like round=wrong, but its Short, Narrow, cross = Wrong, Wicked, Defect etc.


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## ThomasK

@Y: right, _*twisted*_! That reminds me of 'contortion', so connected with turning. And indeed, _right _and _straight _refer to moral correctness, and correctness  [maybe not the perfect noun for the general sense] in general, I suppose. _(I focused on that here)

_@ A: but how about bendng, or curved? Nothing like that? From my Dutch/Germanic perspective I can see the rationale of _cross _(as in _thwart_), -- I'd tend to associate narrowness with fear...


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## Encolpius

round is kerek in *Hungarian *and I cannot remember any association with wrong.


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## ThomasK

But then anything with 'curved' or 'crooked', because those are of course more intrinsically negative than 'round', which may be less general in other languages than our alternative 'om'...


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> But then anything with 'curved' or 'crooked', because those are of course more intrinsically negative than 'round', which may be less general in other languages than our alternative 'om'...



Where though (on this thread) have we found a link between roundness and negativity, as opposed to crookedness and negativity?

The only link I see so far is etymological: e.g., the adjective meaning "round" is sometimes used to form a preposition/adverb meaning "around", which then acquires certain semantics (deviation, avoidance) that the adjective didn't have. Or, sometimes, the concept of "bending" gives rise to a word meaning "round" or "circle", and also a word meaning "crooked" (in the negative sense).


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## ThomasK

Well, 'roundness' might not be the right term, but various 'om-'-compounds in Dutch point towards a negative meaning, but having to do with bending. Ultimately it is about bending indeed, but doesn't bending imply roundness - and/or isn't 'round' some part of the (definition of) bending? So I think there is some basis for my hypothesis, I think. No?


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> Well, 'roundness' might not be the right term, but various 'om-'-compounds in Dutch point towards a negative meaning, but having to do with bending. Ultimately it is about bending indeed, but doesn't bending imply roundness - and/or isn't 'round' some part of the (definition of) bending?


 
I agree that being curved is implied in bending, but not necessarily being round (i.e., circular or spherical).

Admittedly, it's possible for the word _"round"_ to be synonymous with _"curved"_ (perhaps that's the meaning you have in mind when you write "round"), but I think the meaning "circular" or "spherical" is much more prevalent among English speakers.


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## ThomasK

I think I fully understand... I always have some hunch about something, but then it takes time - and intelligent Forero's - to help me pinpoint the issue or reformulate the hypothesis itself. 

In this case I did not, however, wish to refer to 'round' as a word, but round as a quality (_a - surface, a - board_, ...), not so much as a shape (as in spherical, circular, which would be the opposites of _square_, I think).


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## francisgranada

Hungarian:

kör - circle
kerek - round (2D, circular, e.g. table, wheel)
gömb - sphere
gömbölyű - round (3D, spherical, e.g. the Earth, ball)

ív - bow
ívelt - bent ("smoothly, regulary")
görbe - curve; curved (not straight, not linear)
görbült - curved, bent (e.g. a surface)
hajlott - bent, hooked

körül - around, _circum-_ (e.g. körülmenni - to go around, körülírni - _circumscribere_)

(I don't know if it helps ...)


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## ThomasK

Well, anything is helpful, even when it undermines my wishful thinking... ;-) 


francisgranada said:


> Hungarian:
> 
> ívelt - bent ("smoothly, regulary")
> görbe - curve; curved (not straight, not linear)
> görbült - curved, bent (e.g. a surface)
> hajlott - bent, hooked
> 
> körül - around, _circum-_ (e.g. körülmenni - to go around, körülírni - _circumscribere_)
> 
> (I don't know if it helps ...)


Some in this list seem positive, without a doubt, but then how about the 'bent'/ 'curved' words? Do they sound negative? Can you use them metaphorically/ figuratively? And especially:does 'körül' suggest detours, and (other) negative things? - Quite a complete list at least, it seems to me...


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## francisgranada

In general, they don't sound negative (at least to me ). The only word from the list that has/may have a negative sense, is _görbe (tortuous, crooked, wry ...)_. 'Körül' is neutral from this point of view.


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## ThomasK

Too bad... ;-)


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## francisgranada

There is _félre _and_ mellé  _(aside, apart ...) that "suggest detours, and (other) negative things", but these words have nothing to do with "round".


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## apmoy70

In Greek the adj. we use is *«στρεβλός, -ή, -ό»* [stre'vlos] (masc.), [stre'vli] (fem.), [stre'vlo] (neut.) < Classical adj. *«στρεβλός, -ὴ, -όν» strĕblós* (masc.), *strĕblḕ* (fem.), *strĕblón* (neut.) --> _crooked, twisted_, reminiscent of the Classical v. *«στρέφω» strépʰō* --> _to twist, turn_ (with obscure etymology, the variation *«φ/β»* suggests a pre-Greek root). 
From  *«στρέφω» strépʰō* > *«στρόβιλος» stróbīlŏs* (masc.) --> _swirl_, *«στροφὴ» strŏpʰḕ* (fem.) --> _turning around_, *«στρόφιον» strópʰīŏn* (neut.) --> _breast-band, head-band_ (with _o_-grade); *«στρέφω» strépʰō* in MG has produced with vowel gradation the v. *«στρίβω»* ['strivo] (with the same meaning), the neuter noun *«στρίφωμα»* ['strifoma] --> _rolled hem_ etc


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## ThomasK

Thanks, both of you. The twisting has appeared before (_contorsion_, I believe), which I associate with roundness, but maybe the main aspect will turn out to be the deviation from some kind of straight path, be it by bending, by contorting (?), by setting aside, apart, etc. We also have the prefix 'af-', which means 'off', or away, and which suggests some kind of deviation, I guess. Yet, I had thought this  'om' in dutch turned up too often to be a coincidence. I do realize now that 'om' implies indirectness as well...


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## SuperXW

Like many other languages, in Chinese, "right/wrong" are rather bound to the concepts of "straight/crooked".


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## ThomasK

But not the idea of bending/ curving rules then, or for example bypassing them by walking around? Maybe 'straight' is also a synonym of 'direct', and detours are indirect. So right now, I'd think of an opposition like _*straight/ crooked *_indeed, but also *direct/ indirect *(c.q. round, e.g.), as a variant of the same idea. We even have a synonym of 'false', _verkeerd_, which means: turned around.


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## francisgranada

> We even have a synonym of 'false', _verkeerd_, which means: turned around.


A propos, the following Hungarian verb comes to my mind: _kertelni _(to tergiversate, not to tell the truth etc.). 
Etymologically it comes from the same root as _kerülni _(to pass round, get around ...) and _kerek _(round).


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> But not the idea of bending/ curving rules then, or for example bypassing them by walking around?


The v. is *«διαστρεβλώνω»* [ði.astre'vlono] < Classical v. *«διαστρεβλόω/διαστρεβλῶ» dĭăstrĕblóō *(uncontracted)*/ dĭăstrĕblô *(contracted) --> lit. _to twist, strain tight_, metaph. _to bend/curve rules, pervert/distort words_.
The noun is *«διαστρέβλωση»* [ði.a'strevlosi] (fem.).


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## 123xyz

In Macedonian, the most common words for round are "округол" and "тркалезен". The first is derived from the word for "circle", "круг", and the latter from the word for "wheel", "тркало". There is also a less common word, "обол", though its meaning is closer to "curved". There is also a passive participle adjective with the same root, "заоблен", meaning "round" or "curved". None of these words bear any relation to anything wrong or unacceptable, as far as I can perceive.

Whereas the notion of "round" doesn't imply anything such, the subsequently suggested concept of "curved" is indeed (indirectly) connected with wrongness. The word "крив", meaning "curved", "tilted", or "crooked", also means "guilty". Also, looking at someone "криво" means to give a disapproving look, and the verb "скриви" means to wrong some. However, no derivatives of this root actually mean "improper" or "incorrect", as far as I have observed. Either way, it evidently bears negative connotations. 

As for the word "around", i.e. "околу", I don't think it bears any negative connotations either. To do something "од околу" means to do something indirectly - it is most commonly used in relation to prevarication in speech, i.e. beating about the bush. However, I would hardly designate this as a negative connotation.

As for the notion of "around" expressed in verbal prefixes, the prefix "об-" (or "о-", in most environments) fulfills this function. However, the meanings of the words that it derives are so varied that nothing much can be inferred as to its function in forming them. I don't think it makes any sense to strictly analyse the meaning of a prefix based on the meanings of the words it helps derive or vice versa - the original meaning of the prefix may be reflected to a certain extent in certain derived forms but many prefixes (and other types of affixes for that matter) produce such varied meanings, in particular meanings unrelated to the meaning of the prefix or the root word itself. This doesn't hold true of affixes such as those expressing negation, but it does for affixes with a spatial meaning (such as "de-", "in-", "sub-", etc... in English, i.e. in English loanwords derived Latin). Therefore, I wouldn't ascribe any connotation to "об-" or any similar prefix. To present this argument with examples, in Macedonian we have "об-" in the words "опкружи", "обдари" and "оптужи", meaning "to surround", "to endow/gift/bestow" and "to accuse/charge" (these are approximate and rough translations). Thus, we have a neutral, a positive, and a negative connotation. If we judge the prefix "об-" and its connotations based on these three words or any other such words, we would obviously come to erroneous conclusions. Therefore, in relation to the original provided example with "omkopen", I don't really believe that "om-" has any inherent negative association with wrongness or anything such. The verb "omkopen" is a product of two separate morphemes, but its negative meaning is an emergent property, not directly derived from the meanings of its components. There is also a verb "omhelzen", with the prefix "om-", and I think we can agree that hugging is something positive. Also, I don't understand the purpose with the example "omweg". If it means "way around", I don't see the negative connotations and either way, "omweg" actually directly reflects the meanings of its two component morphemes. 

In conclusion, I think it's important that we highlight the connection between "crooked" and "wrong". Indeed, "crookedness" is related to "roundness" as well, so connections may be found there too. However, I don't agree with the analyses of the verbal prefixes or the supposedly negative connotations of certain seemingly neutral expressions, such as "omweg".


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## ThomasK

Thanks for these well-founded considerations. I need to check on the precise visual form of 'crookedness' because I associate it with cracking, breaking, edgy, which is probably not correct. 

Now, I am only trying to explore meanings and connotations of words and prefixes, firstly from a didactic point of view: knowledge of the meanings helps to decipher new words. But I quite  agree that words and prefixes have often passed through many stages of semantic evolutions, even quite unpredictable, or hardly. But I think my hypotheses are useful as rules of thumb, not more. In my Dutch classes I can really help students learn and remember words by referring to these prefixes. But you are quite right: a lof of them have very different meanings, even opposite - and one must be cautious._ (Just recently I noticed that 'ver-horen' can both mean 'interrogate' [a suspect] or 'hear' [someone's prayer, like _exaucer _in French], but there is some method in this madness: _ver-_ can express a perfective aspect, and that perfective aspect may turn out to be neg.; so one must be quite cautious, but knowledge of that can still help.)_

I do know there must be something special about _detour_, _omweg_: with us it is 'felt' as simply negative, too long a way, not the straight way, but i have noticed before that 'detour' does not have these negative connotations in some languages, whereas I don't quite understand why. 

There is another point of interest here for me: Lakoff/ Johnson referred to the metaphorical meanings of for instance _up/ down_, etc., and I like investigating other 'universalisms'. Here I thought there might be kind-of a universalism as well, but I had to review my hypothesis...


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## apmoy70

If I may add, in Greek the adj. round is *«στρογγυλός, -λή, -λό»* [stroɲɟi'los] (masc.), [stroɲɟi'li] (fem.), [stroɲɟi'lo] (neut.) < Classical adj. *«στρογγύλος, -λη, -λον» strŏngúlŏs* (masc.), *strŏngúlē* (fem.), *strŏngúlŏn* (neut.) --> _round_ (with unknown etymology). 
Spherical is *«σφαιρικός, -κή, -κό»* [sferi'kos] (masc.), [sferi'ci] (fem.), [sferi'ko] (neut.) < Classical adj. *«σφαιρικός, -κὴ, -κόν» spʰairīkós* (masc.), *spʰairīkḕ* (fem.), *spʰairīkón* (neut.) --> _spherical, globular_ < Classical fem. noun *«σφαῖρα» spʰaîră* --> _sphere, globe_ (with unknown etymology). 
Circular is *«κυκλικός, -κή, -κό»* [cikli'kos] (masc.), [cikli'ci] (fem.), [cikli'ko] (neut.) < Classical adj. *«κυκλικός, -κὴ, -κόν» kŭklīkós* (masc.), *kŭklīkḕ* (fem.), *kŭklīkón* (neut.) --> _circular, pertaining to circle_ < Classical masc. noun *«κύκλος» kúklŏs* --> _circle_ (PIE *kʷé-kʷlo-, _old name of the "wheel" preserved in many IE languages_ cf Skt. चक्र (cakrá), _wheel_; Lat. colus, _distaff, spun thread_; Proto-Germanic *hwehwlą > Ger. Wiel, Dt. wiel, Eng. wheel, Nor./Dan./Swe. hjul, Isl./Far. hjól; Proto-Slavic *kolo > Rus./Ukr. колесо, Cz/Slov./Svk kolo, Pol. koło, OCS коло > Bul. колело, BCS коло/kolo; Lith. kaklas, _neck_; Ltv. kakls, _neck_).
Thus, *«στρεβλός» ≠ «στρογγυλός» ≠ «σφαιρικός» ≠ «κυκλικός»*. Only *«στρεβλός»* carries with it a negative connotation. 

_Bonus_: Bending of Spacetime (in physics) = *«Στρέβλωση του χωροχρόνου»* ['strevlosi tu xoro'xronu]


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## ThomasK

Well, I certainly must admit that neither _cyclus, cirkel n_or _sferisch _have any other than descriptive meanings in Dutch. My hypothesis was way too broad, for sure... But that is my tactics: suggesting a broad hypothesis so that at least something may remain and/ or that everyone examines all options... ;-)


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## ThomasK

I suppose I should have referred to *curving, bending*, *twisting*, mainly, i.e., some form of manipulation of what was straight/..., though of course flexibility might be considered some form of bending too, I guess...


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## 810senior

In Japanese, I can't somehow correspond an equivalent to the round with the wrong...

round: mawar-i(surroundings, circumference) stemming from verb mawar-u(to turn around, spin, revolve) and causative from mawas-u(turn or push something round, give something a spin).

too-mawa-shi-ni i-u: lit. to say in a faraway round. meaning *to beat around the bush.*
too-:far, faraway c.f. too-i(adj. distant, far) too-ku(adv. far; n. a distant place)
mawa-shi:noun form of mawas-u
ni:makes a adverbial phrase
i-u:to say, to tell


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## ThomasK

Well, indeed, this is like going around the truth, not straight to it. But my hypothesis should have been that bending rather than round could be the necessary focus. Straight/ right are often linked with truth, as you can see here (though I should have focused more on the concept of 'straightness'...


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## ThomasK

Two years later I think of Italian: _giro_ can have some negative meanings, I thought, like _prendere in giro_, pulling someone's leg, but I cannot find more... Anyone?


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## Dymn

I think Spanish speakers would rather associate "round" with "right", since _redondo _sometimes means "perfect". 

For example:
_Hoy ha sido un día redondo _"Today has been a perfect day"


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## ThomasK

Really??? I do know that _iets afronden_ (to finish something) does not sound bad either. I did not wish to suggest that _round_ can only mean negative things, but I wondered about whether it did so in other languages and why, if a reason can be found.


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## Dymn

Well, I think that if you ask for the associations different languages make between "round" and "wrong", my post is relevant since it concerns the opposite (not exactly but close). _Afronden _maybe doesn't have any connotations at all, but as I said _redondo _has positive connotations.

But anyway, going strictly to the point of the thread, no, I can't find any relationship between "round" and "wrong" neither in Catalan nor in Spanish.


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## ThomasK

No misunderstandings: I did consider your post relevant! I was trying to suggest what the object of my question initially was. I welcome your contribution very much: it opens my wish-ful mind! ;-)


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