# Norwegian: glottalized and flapped "t"s



## mezzoforte

I'm having trouble confirming if it's correct/common/dialectical in Norwegian to replace hard consonants with a glottal stop or a retroflex flap, as is done _informally_ (or _dialectically_) in English... especially for _*t*_.

e.g.
_*pit**-> pi**'*_ (where _*'*_ is a glottal stop)
_*got**-> go**'*_
_*gotten** -> go'n*_
_*Cretan -> Cret'n*_

e.g.
_*got it -> goddit *_(where _*dd*_ is a retroflex flap)
_*whatever -> whaddever*_
_*latter -> ladder*_
_*water -> wadder*_

In particular, I think I've heard a pre-glottalized *t* in *liten, fjorten,...*  I don't know if I've heard this at the end of a word (like for English *pit*).


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## missTK

The answer in general is no, if I understand your question correctly. 

What you're hearing in liten, fjorten is a consequence of the "tn" combination (the e is dropped). I'm not sure about the technical terms, but maybe it is preglottalization. I wouldn't really consider it replacement with a glottal stop.


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## mezzoforte

To clarify, the tongue position of the *t* is the same as usual (i.e. alveolar), but the actual  stop/plosive is omitted.  (Notice that *n* has the same tongue positioning as *t*, which may explain why we have the optional to pre-glottalize.)

So, *gotten* is (optionally!) articulated as *gone* with a glottal stop (*'*) before the *n*.  (Try to say that!)

So I was suggesting that *liten* might (optionally) be articulated as *lin* with a *'* before the *n*!

How does that sound to Norwegians?


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## missTK

> So I was suggesting that *liten* might (optionally) be articulated as *lin* with a *'* before the *n*!


When I try to do this, it sounds like an attempt to speak Danish. Definitely not the same as any normal Norwegian articulation.


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## mezzoforte

missTK said:


> When I try to do this, it sounds like an attempt to speak Danish. Definitely not the same as any normal Norwegian articulation.



What do you mean?  Are you serious that that is how it would be in Danish?  Is Danish phonology closer to English?


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## mezzoforte

I want to add that this is related to an _*unreleased stop/plosive*_ (there is a Wiki page and link to another description).  I just learned about it.  For instance, it happens whenever there is a _*tn*_ like in _*catnip*_... the _*t*_ would _never_ be aspirated.  It _can _happen also in the first of a consonant cluster like the _*p*_ in _*apt*_ and the _*c*_ in _*doctor*_.

Does this seem familiar for Norwegian?  (I should say that I _had _been asking about vowel deletion, which is something else.)


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## missTK

> I want to add that this is related to an _*unreleased stop/plosive*_ (there is a Wiki page and link to another description). I just learned about it. For instance, it happens whenever there is a _*tn*_ like in _*catnip*_... the _*t*_ would _never_ be aspirated.  It _can _happen also in the first of a consonant cluster like the _*p*_ in _*apt*_ and the _*c*_ in _*doctor*_.



Yes, this sounds like what I was trying to describe, I just didn't know what it was called. Thank you!

About Danish, I don't know if the phonology is closer to English in general. But a very conspicuous feature of Danish (to a Norwegian speaker) is the "stød", which is close to and sometimes realized as a glottal stop.


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## mezzoforte

So you say *liten *like *liden* *and fjorten* like *fjorden* (*d* pronounced)??  How do you say *uten*?  When/How is the unreleased stop used in Norwegian?


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## oskhen

mezzoforte said:


> So you say *liten *like *liden* *and fjorten* like *fjorden* (*d* pronounced)??  How do you say *uten*?  When/How is the unreleased stop used in Norwegian?



I didn't really manage to follow this discussion, I think, but it's wrong to say that we pronounce "liten" and "fjorten" like "liden" and "fjorden". Aspirated or not, the "t" is still not voiced.

"liden" would be Danish, I think. Although it may be pronounced like that in some Norwegian dialects.


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## kirsitn

oskhen said:


> "liden" would be Danish, I think. Although it may be pronounced like that in some Norwegian dialects.



It's pronounced like that along the southern coast, but they do speak almost Danish.


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## Pteppic

To me, the stops in *liten* and *fjorten* feel more like a nasal release than (pre-)glottalized "t"s.


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## oskhen

kirsitn said:


> It's pronounced like that along the southern coast, but they do speak almost Danish.



Yeah, true


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## mezzoforte

Pteppic said:


> To me, the stops in *liten* and *fjorten* feel more like a nasal release than (pre-)glottalized "t"s.



That was interesting.  I guess this is the same as what we do in English, _when _we pronounce the *t*?


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## mezzoforte

oskhen said:


> I didn't really manage to follow this discussion, I think, but it's wrong to say that we pronounce "liten" and "fjorten" like "liden" and "fjorden". Aspirated or not, the "t" is still not voiced.
> 
> "liden" would be Danish, I think. Although it may be pronounced like that in some Norwegian dialects.



The "voicing"of "t" occurs when we use the "retroflex flap".  I think of it as an easier way to say the word, without having to stop voicing in the middle of the word to make the hard consonant.  (Try it and see if it's easier to say repeatedly _*latter *_or _*ladder*_!!)


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## kirsitn

mezzoforte said:


> That was interesting.  I guess this is the same as what we do in English, _when _we pronounce the *t*?



Yes. The "tn" in "liten" is slightly longer, but otherwise just like the "tn" at the end of "written" when the t is pronounced as t and not d.


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## mezzoforte

Pteppic said:


> To me, the stops in *liten* and *fjorten* feel more like a nasal release than (pre-)glottalized "t"s.



I noticed English has more subtleties with "glottalization".... maybe you can figure out what it is that distinguishes _*eaten* _and _*Eden*_, when we "glottalize" the _*t*_ and _*d*_.  There is a difference, but I don't know how to describe it.  I think we stop voicing briefly for _*eaten*_ (as _*t*_ is precisely a devoiced _*d*_) — this makes the _*E*_ in _*Eden*_ "appear" longer


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## Magb

mezzoforte said:


> _*got it -> goddit *_(where _*dd*_ is a retroflex flap)



Just a small correction: this is an alveolar flap, not a retroflex flap. However, a retroflex flap may indeed be found in some English dialects in words where 'rt' or 'rd' appear between two vowels, e.g. "thirty" ['θɝ*ɽ*i].

I'll also second the notion that the plosives in words like "liten" are nasally released.


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## mezzoforte

Magb said:


> Just a small correction: this is an alveolar flap, not a retroflex flap. However, a retroflex flap may indeed be found in some English dialects in words where 'rt' or 'rd' appear between two vowels, e.g. "thirty" ['θɝ*ɽ*i].
> 
> I'll also second the notion that the plosives in words like "liten" are nasally released.



Okay, this was more helpful than you could imagine!!!  (I didn't realize the two were different.)

The two sounds appear in Norwegian, as Wiki gives *blad* as an example for a retroflex flap and *Norge* as an example for an alveolar tap (flap).  The latter is interesting, and I didn't know about it. But to me, the alveolar tap is just a _*quick r*_ (isn't a _tap_ just a short _trill_?), so I guess I did know about it!  Does it occur whenever you have a consonant cluster starting with a trilled *r*?

When I say *blad* with a retroflex flap, it sounds to me like *bda *or *brda.  *Does that make sense?


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## Magb

Okay, this is complicated, so bear with me:

An alveolar tap/trill is the way most Norwegians pronounce an isolated 'r'. In the south-western part of the country people use various "dorsal" pronunciations, similar to the sounds represented by 'r' in the best-known variants of Danish, German, French, etc. But in the rest of the country, the alveolar sound predominates. The sound is usually a tap, but may be a trill ("rolled r") in some circumstances. Personally I often pronounce a long 'r', e.g. "narr", with a trilled sound, but use a tap in all or almost all other cases.

The "alveolar _flap_" sound -- found in words like "better" in many English dialects -- is almost but not entirely the same sound as the alveolar _tap_ mentioned above. Supposedly the flap is articulated with a slower movement of the tongue or something, but you can basically consider them to be the same sound.

A _retroflex_ flap is known in Norwegian as "tjukk l" ("thick l"). There's a large amount of overlap between the dialects that have an alveolar pronunciation of 'r' and the dialects that have a retroflex flap, but there are exceptions. (I.e. there are dialects with alveolar 'r' that don't have the retroflex flap, and vice versa.) In the dialects in question, both 'l' and 'rd' are sometimes pronounced as a retroflex flap. The rules determining when the retroflex flap is used are quite complex, but one simple rule is that if you have an 'l' following a consonant in a stressed syllable -- as in "blad" -- the retroflex flap is always used.



mezzoforte said:


> When I say *blad* with a retroflex flap, it sounds to me like *bda *or *brda.  *Does that make sense?



Yeah, that sounds about right.


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## mezzoforte

I'd like to know what is the sound that distinguishes "_*ten*_" and "_*tent*_" in English, when we "glottalize" the final _*t*_.  Is there a phonological name for that *t* sound?  Is this the same as the Danish *stød*?


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