# below / above



## BlackNine

Hey everyone,

I'm just now learning Turkish and I need some help. I'm using Rosetta Stone and I am at Level 1, Unit 1, Lesson 1, part 7. It is at "above" and "below" and I get that just fine. What I don't get is the suffix at the end. For instance: "atın üstünde bir adam." Why do I need the "in"? I thought it was for telling _who _jumped instead of just saying something jumped. But I am unsure because there is also "topun altında bir oğlan" which means kind of the same thing, but a different suffix. Does "-un üstünde" mean "this was below" and "-in altında" mean "this was above"?

I'd rather know _why _something is instead of just going along with it?


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## Chazzwozzer

*below:* -ın altında
*above:* -ın üstünde

I'm sure there's a better linguistic answer to this question, but the easiest thing I can tell as to why it goes with -in would be that is because Turkish is an Altaic language, not Indo-European like English. So you could also ask why English doesn't require such thing.


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## Asr

Hello,

Do your CDs have a section for "isim tamlamaları"? If so check that out, it might help you understand those suffixes.

But it is possible to see "altında" , "üstünde" being employed without a suffix.
Like "at üstünde bir adam", "su altında bir mağra", but there is a *very* slight change of meaning here.  Here the whole thing is  working just like an adjective, describing the subject/object, whatever they are complementing. For example you might say: At üstünde bir adam bize doğru geliyor = A man on a horse is coming towards us."   OR "Hazine su altında bir mağrada saklı = The treasury is hidden in a cave under water." In both of these examples, which horse, or which water is not the issue, they are merely used to desribe the man, and the cave...

 Well I am not a linguist and been ages since I last studied grammar, but hope this helps a little.


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## tugcee

A man on a horse : Atın üstündeki adam.

There is vowel harmony in Turkish. Firstly I would like to explain it to you by the easiest way: Plurals

For example, at: horse atlar: horses

boy : erkek boys: erkeler/ ball: top balls: toplar / kedi: cat cats: kediler

kedi+ler : plural at+lar: plural so, you will consider the last vowel e/i/ü/ö--ler a/ı/u/o----lar

Let's go back your question

There are Four Forms of Noun Completion - (İsim Tamlaması)

The example you gave is a "Chained noun Completion" and you have to apply the vowel harmony

the pictures of the magazine cover( Chained noun comp.)

at-ın üstündeki adam : the man on the horse 

kedi-nin üstündeki kuş: the bird on the cat

yol-un üstündeki araba: the car on the way


The Describing Noun sufixes are always -in, -ın, -ün, -un -(Vowel harmony applies) 

I hope it is more clear to you now.


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## dudasd

BlackNine said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> What I don't get is the suffix at the end. For instance: "atın üstünde bir adam." Why do I need the "in"?


 
I had had the same problem long ago until the friend of mine dissected the whole construction for me. This is a rough explanation, but usually helps foreign learners to grasp it:

at - horse
at*ın* - horse's

üst - top, upper part
at*ın* üst*ü* - horse's upper part
atın üstün*de* - at the horse's upper part = on the horse

Does this help?

Of course, whether the first suffix will be -ın, -in, -un or -ün, and whether the second one will be -de or -da - it depends on the preceding vowels, which you will grasp as soon as you learn the vowel harmony. Don't be scared, vowel harmony is easy and once you learn it you'll never forget it.


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## BlackNine

Well, I speak Latin so I am used to suffixes and word order. Turkish is pretty close to Latin in some respects.

Thanks guys! This really helps! I'm bookmarking this page for later use


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## Revontuli

You can ask about anything that confuses you BlackNine. We'll be pleased to help you.

Greetings and hope to see you!


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## Lindy Hopper

Hi BlackNine,

The reason why there's an -in suffix is that because in this case "the" horse is  a particular horse that we see (or know) at the time of speech. This is called a genitival possessive noun construction.

If it was "at üstünde bir adam" which is perfectly right then this could have meant that a man was on "a horse" but the horse itself is NOT particularly important at this point.


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## /.:TürK:.\

There are different kinds of ''tamlama(maybe its called noun phrase in Eng.)'' types in Turkish.

1.İsim Tamlaması(Noun phrase)
a.Belirtili(Emphasized) İsim tamlaması: _a_ man on _the _horse , at_ın _üstünde _bir _adam.
As you see, who the man is and what the horse is both important and particular.So they are emphasized(I'm not sure I'm using the right term 

b.Belirtisiz(Unemphasized) İsim Tamlaması: man on _the _horse , at_ın _üstünde adam
Here ''man'' is not particular but the horse is.
_a _man on horse , at üstünde _bir _adam
Here ''horse'' is not particular but the man is. 

c.Takısız(nominative) İsim Tamlaması:This kind of phrase is used for express what a object is made of.Dont confuse with ''Sıfat(adjective) Tamlaması''.Both of words are nominative.
Çelik yelek (steel vest)
Ahşap dolap (wood wardrobe)
Bakır tel ( copper wire)

2.Sıfat(adjective) Tamlaması
Büyük insan (great person)
Düz saç (Straight hair)
Çalışan insanlar (working people)

Note:Best way to set apart 'sıfat tamlamas' and 'takısız isim tamlaması' is to ask qualifier word 'is it made of...?' question.


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