# All Slavic Languages: redundant negation



## maxl

Some Slavic, as well as non-Slavic languages (e.g. French) I know add an extra 'not' in expressions with the equivalents of  "until", "as long as", and also in expressions with verbs like 'fear', e.g. 'I fear that he may not come' meaning 'that he may come'. How wide spread is that in Slavic? 
The type that I'm particularly interested in came up in this forum in an example cited by Slavian1 in a discussion of future tense (actually perfective  aspect of the present forms) to express sudden events in the past.
"Example: "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."
'Yesterday I was in the bank, when suddenly two men came in and  started [literally: will *not* start] to shoot.'
Is this possible (with the negation included) in other Slavic languages too?


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## dudasd

In Serbian/Croatian negation is also used to express "until", and it's used with "to fear":

Čekaću *dok ne dođe*. (I will wait until he arrives.)
Brinem se *da ne padne*. (I am scared that he will fall.)

Note: "dok" meaning "until" gets another meaning without negation:

*Dok ti to ne završiš*, ja neću kući. (I won't go home *before you finish that* / *until you finish that*.)
*Dok ti to završiš*, proći će dan. (*By time you finish that*, the day will be over. - accent is on length of the act.)


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## Duya

I like to think about until/while <-> dok situation in terms of programming languages: some PLs have both _until _and _while_ constructs, while others have only _while_. In the latter case, to emulate _until_, one has to use negation. So, in "formal" terms, dudasd' examples would come to:

*Dok ti to ne završiš*, ja neću kući. 
_*while*(*not*_ you_completed)
  I *not* home
*end while*

*Dok ti to završavaš*, prolazi dan. 
_*while*_ (you_completing)
  day goes
_*end while*_

However, I'm not sure I'd say *"Dok ti to završiš*, proći će dan" myself - I'd prefer "*dok ti to ne** završiš*". The confusion is not likely, though, because "until" semantics naturally comes with perfective, and "while" with imperfective verbs.


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## Duya

dudasd said:


> In Serbian/Croatian negation is also used to express "until", and it's used with "to fear":
> 
> Brinem se *da ne padne*. (I am scared that he will fall.)



Strangely though, the negation with "fear/worry" works only in present tense: compare:

1) Bojim se da neće doći = Bojim se da nije došao.
2) Bojim se da će doći = Bojim se da je došao = Bojim se da *ne dođe*.

In the first example, the speaker  expects someone to come, and fears that he would not. In the second, the person is unwelcome, and the speaker wishes that he wouldn't come. However, there's no way to express meaning (1) in the present tense - at least not with perfective verb: "bojim se da dođe" is not possible. On the other hand, imperfective present keeps the normal semantics:

1) Bojim se da ne dolazi.
2) Bojim se da dolazi.


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## Thomas1

maxl said:


> Some Slavic, as well as non-Slavic languages (e.g. French) I know add an extra 'not' in expressions with the equivalents of "until", "as long as", and also in expressions with verbs like 'fear', e.g. 'I fear that he may not come' meaning 'that he may come'. How wide spread is that in Slavic?
> The type that I'm particularly interested in came up in this forum in an example cited by Slavian1 in a discussion of future tense (actually perfective aspect of the present forms) to express sudden events in the past.
> "Example: "Wczoraj byłem w banku, gdy nagle weszło dwóch mężczyzn i jak nie zaczną strzelać ..."
> 'Yesterday I was in the bank, when suddenly two men came in and started [literally: will *not* start] to shoot.'
> Is this possible (with the negation included) in other Slavic languages too?


I read this post of yours and have been thinking about what you said about French and may have found something interesting (though, I am not sure if this is what you have in mind):
the ne expletif in French is not obligatory and it gives a sophisticated ring to the enunciation whereas this nie in Polish is oligatory in some cases and _I believe _in some it is not, and doesn't make the whole sentence more high-brow.

_Je crains qu'il ne manque le train _
_I'm afraid ou I fear that he might miss the train_
_Boję się żeby nie spóźnił się na pociąg._


Tom


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## Hal1fax

For Polish the double negation would be something like 'Nie mysle ze nie wierze ci' I don't think I believe you?


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## dudasd

Duya said:


> However, I'm not sure I'd say *"Dok ti to završiš*, proći će dan" myself - I'd prefer "*dok ti to ne** završiš*". The confusion is not likely, though, because "until" semantics naturally comes with perfective, and "while" with imperfective verbs.


 
The point is in different meanings od "dok" with/without negation in case of perfective verbs only, for with imperfective verbs it would not mean "until" but "while" or "as". "Dok" used with a perfective verb without negation can't make a regular temporal sentence, you are right, but in cases like the one I mentioned, it gets another meaning. Sentence "Dok ti to ne završiš, proći će dan" wouldn't have much logics (actually, it would be wrong from the point of our syntax), for the first part ("Dok ti to ne završiš") means a period of waiting, and the more precise translation would be: "As long as you don't finish that" or "As long as you don't have this finished". *Dok + perfective verb *has meaning of "by time" (absolutely regular construction) and speaks more about the moment when the act will be finished - precise translation would be "By time you have that finished, the day will be over." But in both cases we feel "dok" in its meaning of "until". 

For example, compare these two:
Budi spreman dok ja ne dođem. - Be ready until I come. (More precisely: be ready all the time until I come, and when I come I can take your place.)
Budi spreman dok ja dođem. - Be ready when I come. (I want you to be ready by time I come, but I am not interested when you will get ready, my main request is that I find you ready.)


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## MagdaDH

Hal1fax said:


> For Polish the double negation would be something like 'Nie mysle ze nie wierze ci' I don't think I believe you?



No, this sentence means what it means on the surface: "I don't think I don't believe you" which is a bit convioluted way of saying "I think I believe you" and wouldn't be used. 

I am not sure about other languages (Slavic or not), but the Polish 
*i jak NIE zaczna strzelac!* has pretty much the same meaning as *i jak zaczna strzelac!*. NIE is used for some kind of emphasis here, it's a poetic device, really, not semantic.


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## Thomas1

MagdaDH said:


> [...]I am not sure about other languages (Slavic or not), but the Polish
> *i jak NIE zaczna strzelac!* has pretty much the same meaning as *i jak zaczna strzelac!*. NIE is used for some kind of emphasis here, it's a poetic device, really, not semantic.


The sentence you gave doesn't sound idiomatically to me in Polish (in the meaning of the former one). 
It doesn't convey the same meaning, I think.
_I jak zaczną strzelać to zatkaj uszy, żebyś nie ogłuchł._
Which is still a bit sloppy a sentence, I couldn't actually think up any where _i jak zaczną strzelać _would work, but you might get away with it. _I jak zaczną strzelać _implies something that is supposed to happen in the future.

_Wjechali do wsi cała grupą i jak nie zaczną strzelać..._
i jak nie zaczną strzelać implies something already begun.

Tom


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## MagdaDH

I kind of agree here: my examples were a bit sloppy. 

But what I really tried to say is that _*jak nie...*_ is a style device, and doesn't really carry a spearate meaning. Somewhow addition of "ci" makes the one without negation more natural, though perhaps a past-tense construction is needed? I'll try again:

_Gosia zobaczyla mysz i jak nie wrzasnie!_
_Gosia zobaczyla mysz i jak ci wrzasnela!_
_Gosia zobaczyla mysz i wrzasnela. _

They all sound OK to me, though the middle one is maybe slightly dodgy. 

_*Jak ten [mu] przywalil, to tamten sie nogami zakryl. *_


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## Thomas1

Hm.... I have been starring at your second example in the three you gave and don't know if it's something to do with me but it doesn't work to me well in Polish.
Also, the last example would work better to me if it read:
*Jak mu przywalil, to tamten sie nogami zakryl. *
or
*Jak ten mu przywalil, to tamten sie nogami zakryl. *

The reason I don't like *Jak ten przywalil, to tamten sie nogami zakryl. *is that I expect that there were more than just one attacker but more who mob a person and here tamten doesn't quite pass in since to me tamten is another attacker and not the victim, besides the rythym of the sentence isn't good unless used on purpose. It would work much better were there _on_ instead of _tamten_.
Anyway, I think I may get your point, I found an example where to me you could use _nie_ or omit it:
"Naraz jak nie huknęło!" or "Naraz jak huknęło!".
Is it what your want to get across?

Tom

Edit: now I am also starting to think if tamten is fine in the first two examples... it would be good to get some more opinions on that...


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## Śląsk77

Looking at the first two posts in this thread, the equivalent in Polish does exist in sentences involving time and waiting for an even, for example you could say:

_Zostaniemy tu aż nie wrócą.  (We'll stay here until they don't return)._
The "nie" in this sentence is redundant, you can just as well say:
_Zostaniemy tu aż wrócą.  (We'll stay here until they return)._

_Dopóki nie pomalujesz ścian nie mogę poustawiać mebli.  (Until you_ _don't paint the walls I can't arrange the furniture)._
But in this case it isn't redundant, I don't think you can drop the "nie".
_Dopóki pomalujesz ścian nie mogę poustawiać mebli. (Until you paint the walls I can't arrange the furniture)._
That sounds very strange to me in Polish, of course in English it's the exact opposite.


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