# إنزال



## eac

Hi everyone. I am having a hard time making sense of this clause, and I think I must be misinterpreting the word إنزال. I had thought it meant the same thing as إنقاص or تخفيض. Here is the clause:

حيث لا مجل ولا منطق في تبني الموقف الذي يمتنع عن إنزال الرحمة بالخلق, وفي الوقت ذاته يعمل على مصادرة فرصة إنزال رحمة الله بهم من أي باب.
​Since there is no room for and no logic in embracing the attitude that avoids reducing mercy by nature, and at the same time labors to seize the opportunity to reduce God's mercy on them from any door.​


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## Josh_

إنقاص and تخفيض have to do with lowering in terms of making something (big) smaller -- like lowering prices. إنزال has to do lowering in terms of bringing something down from a higher place -- like bringing books down from the top shelf.

So  إنزال الرحمة  means the bringing down of mercy.  The second time: ... the opportunity to bring God's mercy down ...


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## cherine

Hi eac,
This expression إنزال الرحمة means giving mercy (it has nothing to do with reducing anything, rather about "coming down from above"; i.e. Heaven), it's commonly used, we even have a sort of proverb used with a person who won't help others, nor even let those others receive help from other persons : لا يرحم ولا يخللى رحمة ربنا تنزل .

So, to get back to your sentence : 


			
				eac said:
			
		

> حيث لا مجل ولا منطق في تبني الموقف الذي يمتنع عن إنزال الرحمة بالخلق, وفي الوقت ذاته يعمل على مصادرة فرصة إنزال رحمة الله بهم من أي باب.​
> 
> Since there is no room for and no logic in embracing the attitude that avoids giving mercy by nature to the creature/people (the word الخلق literatly means "God's creature", and is usually used as synonym to humans or people), and at the same time labors (why not just "work"?) to seize the opportunity (where did you find this in the Arabic sentence?) to reduce God's mercy on them from any door (this is too literal, you can translate it as : they prevent any chance for those creature/people to receive God's mercy from anywhere else/from other way...).​


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## Josh_

Hello Cherine,

Might I make a suggestion?  You should pluralize the word "creature" otherwise it carries connotations of being a monster or عفريت (my initial thought when I read your translation).  Maybe we could also use the word creation, at least in the first instance.


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## cherine

oops ! sorry Josh, that was a silly typo.
You know English better   so if the word "creation" gives better the meaning of "God's creatures", so creation it is


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## Josh_

Oh, no problem, your English is very good. If الخلق  is usually a synonym for humans/people then you could also use the word mankind.

Anyway, I had just a quick little question.  I always thought that ذات meant something like 'itself' so wouldn't  الوقت ذاته mean "time itself?" Or am I wrong in thinking this and it means "at the same time?" Or can it be either way depending on the context. I'm sorry, I know I'm such a سأال .


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## cherine

Yes, the word ذات can be translated in different way according to context :
 الشخص ذاته the same person, or: that person in particular.
 الوقت ذاته the same time 
أنا ذاتى myself

P.S. جديدة سأال دى   you can also use سَؤُول while you're at it, and it sounds a bit better 
And of course you can ask all the questions you have, you know we all love it


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## elroy

I have a couple of questions:

-Is إنزال الرحمة بالخلق correct, at least with the meaning "*to* (the) creation"?  Shouldn't the preposition be إلى?

-Cherine, I assume Eac's "seize the opportunity" came from  مصادرة فرصة.  It seems to be a good translation, don't you think?

(By the way, I agree that "creation" is the most suitable translation of خلق.)


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## ayed

*Sending down* mercy on creation?


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## cherine

elroy said:
			
		

> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> -Is إنزال الرحمة بالخلق correct, at least with the meaning "*to* (the) creation"? Shouldn't the preposition be إلى?
> 
> -Cherine, I assume Eac's "seize the opportunity" came from مصادرة فرصة. It seems to be a good translation, don't you think?
> 
> (By the way, I agree that "creation" is the most suitable translation of خلق.)


- Yes, using the prepositio ب with this expression is the right one, it gives the meaning : giving to. The same structure is used with the opposite meaning إنزال العذاب بالناس giving them punishment or torture.
- My problem with the second question is that I couldn't find the word مصادرة in the dictionary. But this word means taking away, it's not انتهاز/ استغلال الفرصة it's exactly the opposite, at least in this context. Please excuse me for not being able of giving clearer explanation  
- As for الخلق we commonly use this word -at least in Egypt- to refer to people, so not "all" the creation, just the humans.


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## Josh_

I think I know where the trouble is stemming from. مصادرة must mean siezing/seizure in terms of taking away; confiscation -- Seizure of drugs. 

My question is, it can't also mean seizing in terms of taking possession of; taking (firm) hold of something -- seizing an opportunity.

Since eac got this text from somewhere the wording can't be changed, but if it could, I suppose انتهاز would be a better choice for the seizing of an opportunity.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I think I know where the trouble is stemming from. مصادرة must mean siezing/seizure in terms of taking away; confiscation -- Seizure of drugs.


YES ! Thank you Josh 
Confiscation it is.
There are many expressions with the word مصادرة , that I was even considering starting a thread about them (what do you think?) 



> My question is, it can't also mean seizing in terms of taking possession of; taking (firm) hold of something -- seizing an opportunity.


I'm not sure about that. I think it mainly (if not only) means taking away, preventing...



> Since eac got this text from somewhere the wording can't be changed, but if it could, I suppose انتهاز would be a better choice for the seizing of an opportunity.


Yes, this is what I said in my last post, seizing an opportunity is انتهاز الفرصة أو استغلال الفرصة


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> Yes, the word ذات can be translated in different way according to context :
> الشخص ذاته the same person, or: that person in particular.
> الوقت ذاته the same time
> أنا ذاتى myself
> 
> P.S. جديدة سأال دى   you can also use سَؤُول while you're at it, and it sounds a bit better
> And of course you can ask all the questions you have, you know we all love it


Just one more clarification . I understand the use of ذات in your first example as same can be replaced with him/herself (the person, himself, ...). But, just to clarify the second example with time الوقت ذاته means the same time like نفس الوقت or bil-marra (Eg) mean (at) the same time? 

If I wanted to say someting like "when we arrive at the speed of light, time, itself, will stop moving" would I use الوقت ذاته ?:

عندما نصل إلى سرعة الضوء فسيقف الوقت ذاته.


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> YES ! Thank you Josh
> Confiscation it is.
> There are many expressions with the word مصادرة , that I was even considering starting a thread about them (what do you think?)


Yes, if you want to. I would partake and ask questions.



> I'm not sure about that. I think it mainly (if not only) means taking away, preventing...


Thanks for clarifying. I after reading your post I figured it couldn't, but I figured I would ask just to be sure.



> Yes, this is what I said in my last post, seizing an opportunity is انتهاز الفرصة أو استغلال الفرصة


Ooh gosh, I must have skipped right over that. You can add "reading too fast" to my list of reasons for ghalataati.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> But, just to clarify the second example with time الوقت ذاته means the same time like نفس الوقت or bil-marra (Eg) mean (at) the same time?


الوقت ذاته = الوقت نفسه = the same time.
I don't have an example on my mind now, but the sentence given by eac in the first post illustrates this meaning very well.



> If I wanted to say someting like "when we arrive at the speed of light, time, itself, will stop moving" would I use الوقت ذاته ?:
> 
> عندما نصل إلى سرعة الضوء فسيقف الوقت ذاته.


Your sentence is grammatically correct.
Allow me to correct it language-wise :
 عندما نصل إلى سرعة الضوء فسيتوقف الزمن ذاته ​Here, it's better using "zaman" than "time".


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## Josh_

Ok, I just wanted to clarify and make sure I understood it, which I do.  Thanks for the clarification.


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## cherine

You're welcome  I'm glad I could be of help.


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> - Yes, using the prepositio ب with this expression is the right one, it gives the meaning : giving to. The same structure is used with the opposite meaning إنزال العذاب بالناس giving them punishment or torture.
> - My problem with the second question is that I couldn't find the word مصادرة in the dictionary. But this word means taking away, it's not انتهاز/ استغلال الفرصة it's exactly the opposite, at least in this context. Please excuse me for not being able of giving clearer explanation
> - As for الخلق we commonly use this word -at least in Egypt- to refer to people, so not "all" the creation, just the humans.


 
-Thanks for your answer.  Now that I've read it again, it sounds better.
-I, too, was not familiar with مصادرة الفرصة, so I looked it up to see if there was a meaning I was unfamiliar with. I saw "seize" and figured that's why it was used with الفرصة.  I wonder if the writer of the original text is a native speaker of Arabic.  
-You are right again.  It occurs to me that "creation" (including more than humans) is الخليقة - so perhaps "mankind" is the best translation here.


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## cherine

elroy said:
			
		

> -Thanks for your answer. Now that I've read it again, it sounds better.
> -I, too, was not familiar with مصادرة الفرصة, so I looked it up to see if there was a meaning I was unfamiliar with. I saw "seize" and figured that's why it was used with الفرصة. I wonder if the writer of the original text is a native speaker of Arabic.
> -You are right again. It occurs to me that "creation" (including more than humans) is الخليقة - so perhaps "mankind" is the best translation here.


Thanks Elroy,
- I think the writer is a native, a non-native wouldn't be able -in my opinion- of coming up with an expression so "local" as يرحم ويدع رحمة الله تنزل 
In fact, this expression is becoming one of those "a la mode" expressions used so often in modern Arabic. It can be replaced by other Arabic words lik, maybe, منع، إعاقة، الحيلولة دون (I hope these alternatives make the sense even clearer)
- I occured to me that الخلق can be translated in French as "les gens", what's the English equivalent for this ?


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> Thanks Elroy,
> - I think the writer is a native, a non-native wouldn't be able -in my opinion- of coming up with an expression so "local" as يرحم ويدع رحمة الله تنزل
> In fact, this expression is becoming one of those "a la mode" expressions used so often in modern Arabic. It can be replaced by other Arabic words lik, maybe, منع، إعاقة، الحيلولة دون (I hope these alternatives make the sense even clearer) I'm not sure I know what you're referring to here?
> - I occured to me that الخلق can be translated in French as "les gens", what's the English equivalent for this ?


-So how do you explain the writer's use of مصادرة الفرصة?
-"Les gens" would just be "people," wouldn't it?  But in this context, I would translate it as "mankind."


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## cherine

elroy said:
			
		

> -So how do you explain the writer's use of مصادرة الفرصة?
> -"Les gens" would just be "people," wouldn't it? But in this context, I would translate it as "mankind."


- Consider the alternative : إعاقة فرصة إنزال رحمة الله , does it make the sentence any clearer ?  
- Ok, if you see that this is better. I refer to you in English


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## cherine

I'll repeat, with few changes, what I've already put in post #3 :



حيث لا مجال ولا منطق في تبني الموقف الذي يمتنع عن إنزال الرحمة بالخلق, وفي الوقت ذاته يعمل على مصادرة فرصة إنزال رحمة الله بهم من أي باب.​



Since there is no room for and no logic in embracing the attitude that not only refrains from giving mercy to people, but also labors to deny them any opportunity of receiving God's mercy from any other door/way

What do you think of my translation ?​


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> - Consider the alternative : إعاقة فرصة إنزال رحمة الله , does it make the sentence any clearer ?


 
Ah, yes, I see what you mean now!

We've probably confused poor Eac by now, so I just wanted to post our most updated translation (I took the liberty of rewording some of it  ):

Since there is no room for and no logic in adopting a position that avoids bestowing mercy on mankind, and at the same time strives to thwart the opportunity to bestow God's mercy on them through any means.

Comments are welcome.


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## cherine

Guy, that's good !


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## elroy

Thanks!  

But I actually prefer your wording for some parts of the translation, so I'd like to combine elements from both of our versions to produce a better final product:

Since there is no room for and no logic in adopting a position that not only avoids bestowing mercy on mankind, but (at the same time) also strives to thwart any opportunity to bestow God's mercy on them through any means.

شو رأيك؟


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## cherine

Wow ! this is even better   
Hope eac would benefit from these contributions


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## zooz

Elroy, I prefer the first version. Sounds more accurate to me.



> Since there is no room for and no logic in adopting a position that avoids bestowing mercy on mankind, and at the same time strives to thwart the opportunity to bestow God's mercy on them through any means.


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## Josh_

We could also say "by any means" rather than "through any means" which sounds better to my ears.


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## elroy

Zooz, my updated version is the same as the first one - with two stylistic changes: I liked Cherine's "not only...but also" and the "any" before the second "opportunity."  I don't think those two changes reduced the accuracy a whole lot, did they?

Josh, "by any means" reminds me of "by no means," which is why I went with "through."


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## zooz

Yes, Elroy. There's no essential difference in the meaning, but rather in the style of writing.


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