# ein nicht so treffender / nicht so der treffende Betreff



## perpend

A) ... war ein nicht so treffender Betreff von mir.
B) ... war nicht so der treffende Betreff von mir.

These are my own sentences. The context is a "subject" in an e-mail that doesn't sound "fitting", so to speak.

I'm not sure where to place "so". Maybe "treffendste" would be better in B)?


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## bearded

Hello
'treffender Betreff' does not sound too well because of the repetition.  Why not 'ganz richtiger Betreff' ?


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## perpend

"ganz richtiger Betreff" sounds too clinical to me, bearded.


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## Schimmelreiter

perpend said:


> B) ... war nicht so der treffende Betreff von mir.


_nicht so der _makes you really young, perpend.

It's _Jugendsprache_:

_Das Konzert war *nicht so der* Knaller.
Herr Müller ist *nicht so der* Hammer als Mathelehrer.
Uwe ist *nicht so der *​Frauentyp.


_In _der treffende Betreff_, one might recognise repetition as an ironic device.


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## Perseas

perpend said:


> A) ... war ein nicht so treffender Betreff von mir.
> B) ... war nicht so der treffende Betreff von mir.


In A "ein" is an indefinite article, whereas in B "der" is a definite article.
 After Schimmelreiter's answer I think it would be interesting to compare A ("ein nicht so") with "nicht so ein". Which is better?


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## perpend

I like the alliteration, and if my placement of "so" makes me young, than so be it---but I'm 46. 

So, does my generation place the "so" like that?

EDIT: Cross-post with Perseas.

So:
A) war ein nicht so treffender Betreff
B) war nicht so der treffende Betreff
C) war nicht so ein treffender Betreff (from Perseas)


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## Schimmelreiter

A is old and ironic.
B is young and ironic.

Don't we all want to be like B?


Crossed with perpend.

When writing serious stuff: A (if irony is appropriate despite the serious stuff)
B is for the less serious occasions.


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## estoy_lerniendo

perpend said:


> I like the alliteration, and if my placement of "so" makes me young, than so be it---but I'm 46.
> 
> So, does my generation place the "so" like that?



I think they're saying it has more to do with using "der" instead of "ein" that makes you young.


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## Schimmelreiter

estoy_lerniendo said:


> I think they're saying it has more to do with using "der" instead of "ein" that makes you young.


That's it. 
_nicht so ein treffender Betreff_, which was not among perpend's original suggestions, would simply be non-standard/colloquial.


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## perpend

Schimmelreiter said:


> That's it.
> _nicht so ein treffender Betreff_, which is not among perpend's suggestions, would simply be non-standard/colloquial.



I added it as C), due to Perseas' input, in my #6.

Why does "der" make you young? Isn't is just a mere stylistic choice?


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## Schimmelreiter

I'd rule out C as bad German or colloquial at best.




The combination of _nicht_ _so_ plus definite article is typical of how young people speak. 

Wer lieber keine Kinder haben möchte, sagt _Ich bin nicht so der Babytyp.
_
Wer klassische Musik nicht mag, sagt _Ich bin nicht so der Klassikfan_. 


See also my other examples in post #4.


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## Perseas

Schimmelreiter said:


> I'd rule out C as bad German or colloquial at best.
> 
> The combination of _nicht_ _so_ plus definite article is typical of how young people speak.


Therefore, it's "nicht" in front of "so ein" that makes the whole phrase bad German, because I think the affirmative "so ein XX" ist more common than "ein so XX".


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## Schimmelreiter

Perseas said:


> Therefore, it's "nicht" in front of "so ein" that makes the whole phrase bad German, because I think the affirmative "so ein XX" ist more common than "ein so XX".


C, with the indefinite article after _so_, is non-standard: _Er hat so ein großes Haus (wie ich).
_Standard: _ein so großes Haus
_
@ perpend
Re: _nicht __so _+ def. article as a stylistic choice
It may not be a "choice" for the young because that's how they speak. If I, on the wrong side of 50, spoke like this, it would definitely be a choice I made, fearful, though, of an _act your age_​-type comment.


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## estoy_lerniendo

Schimmelreiter said:


> C, with the indefinite article after _so_, is non-standard: _Er hat so ein großes Haus (wie ich).
> _Standard: _ein so großes Haus_



I'm confused. I thought I had heard natives use "so ein..." and I found it akin to the English "such a..."

For example, "so eine dumme Frage" gets a lot of results on Google compared to "eine so dumme Frage," but obviously an open corpus is error-prone.


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## Schimmelreiter

It's standard as a stand-alone exclamation: _So eine dumme Frage! _in the sense of _Was für eine dumme Frage!


_In a sentence, it's non-standard: _Das ist so eine dumme Frage, dass ich nicht antworte.

_Standard: _Das ist eine so dumme Frage, ...



_As for google hits: Of course, non-standard colloquialisms are very frequent. Linguistically, they are not _errors_​, but a register of their own.


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## estoy_lerniendo

Das ist eine so gute Antwort... I wasn't sure if it was a matter of register or unintended "errors" made by foreigners, but now I see.


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## perpend

Nee, das ist so eine gute Antwort!


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## Schimmelreiter

perpend said:


> Nee, das ist so eine gute Antwort!


That's exactly the standard exclamatory use. 
When invited, you have to say _Das ist so ein gutes Essen!_, irrespective of how it tastes.



PS
Cf. _Heute ist so ein schöner Tag! _vs. _An einem so schönen Tag (wie heute) sollten wir eine Radtour machen._


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## estoy_lerniendo

So one could say that "so ein" is used to emphasize a quality in isolation, whereas "ein so" is used to emphasize a quality such that it fulfills a condition stated in the sentence. (?)

Ich bin froh, dass du so eine gute Antwort gegeben hast. 

Du hast eine so gute Antwort gegeben, dass ich darüber froh bin. 

Is this distinction legitimate? Obviously, the sentences first have to be acceptable in German in order to analyze them properly.


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## Schimmelreiter

I wish other native speakers commented in order to prevent me, if need be, from declaring my own idiosyncrasy a rule.
I wouldn't use _so ein _other than in what I called exclamations. Or if I did, I'd find my own language colloquial.

It's not only about condition. _Er hat so ein großes Haus wie ich_​ doesn't sound like standard German to me.


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## estoy_lerniendo

Schimmelreiter said:


> It's not only about condition. _Er hat so ein großes Haus wie ich_​ doesn't sound like standard German to me.




Indeed, "condition" isn't the most precise word in the world. "Wie ich" would be like a condition in my thinking; the house meets the condition of being as big as mine.


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## Schimmelreiter

Sorry. My comment was pedantic.
And then I stand in front of his house and say, admiringly: _Er hat so ein großes Haus!_​, realising it's much bigger than mine.


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## estoy_lerniendo

I was also wondering if my distinction in post #19 is legitimate. (everything else in it has to be proper)


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## Schimmelreiter

estoy_lerniendo said:


> Ich bin froh, dass du so eine gute Antwort gegeben hast.
> 
> Du hast eine so gute Antwort gegeben, dass ich darüber froh bin.


The former might be said by a teacher to her pupil. It's the kind of language often used towards children. 


If a company writes to its client, it will probably use a sentence like
_
Wir sind froh, dass wir eine so befriedigende Lösung gefunden haben.

_rather than

_Wir sind froh, dass wir so eine befriedigende Lösung gefunden haben._


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## estoy_lerniendo

Okay, thank you. I think that clears up that point for me. I'll just reserve "so ein" for the simple statement of 'admiration' as mentioned.


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## perpend

Kudos for sticking with this thread, SchimmelR. It's both helpful and informative.


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