# Remember



## ThomasK

I am very curious how you translate the English word in its different (...) meanings: 

1. I am trying to learn the words, but I cannot remember them.  [store in one's memory, French _retenir]_
2. I have learnt the word, but I cannot recall (remember ?) it.  [recall from memory, French _se rappeler_]
3. Remember (you need) to study that [don't forget, keep/bear in mind, French p_enser à ._.. ? ] ... 
4. Remind him that he must study [make him remember, think of it, French _rappeler à qn de _... ]... 

Dutch: 
1. *onthouden *(retain?, dis-hold)
2. zich h*erinneren *(her-inner, re-get inside)
3. *denk *eraan (think of it)
4. *herinner *hem eraan dat... (re-get inside him of it that ...)


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## apmoy70

Hi TK,

In Greek:

1. (a) *«Θυμάμαι»* [θi'mame], (b) *«θυμούμαι» * [θi'mume], (c) *«ενθυμούμαι»* [enθi'mume] < Byz. Greek *«θυμοῦμαι» thymoûmai* --> _to remember_ < Classical Gr. v. *«ἐνθυμέομαι/ἐνθυμοῦμαι» ĕntʰŭméŏmai (uncontracted) / ĕntʰŭmoûmai (contracted)* --> _to think much or deeply of something_ (PIE *dʰuH-mo-, _smoke_ cf Skt धूम (dhUma); Lat. fūmus > It./Por. fumo, Sp. humo, Fr. fumée, Eng. fume, Rom. fum; OCS дымъ).
(a) is colloquialism, (b) is learned, (c) is bookish. 
2. idem
3. We prefer the periphrastic expression, _"do not forget"_; the v. is *«ξεχνάω/ξεχνώ»* [kse'xna.o] (uncontracted) / [kse'xno] (contracted) --> _to forget_ < Late Byz. Gr. v. *«ξεχνῶ» ksexnô* < Byz. Gr. v. *«ξεχάνω» ksexáno* (with the same meaning) < compound, productive prefix of Medieval & Modern Greek *«ξε-»* [kse-]*** used for expressing _the opposite, cancellation or removal of a condition_ (similar to Eng. _un-, de-_) + Hellenistic v. *«χαώνω» kʰăṓnō* < Classical Gr. v. *«χαόω/χαῶ» kʰăóō (uncontracted) / kʰaô (contracted)*--> _to throw into chaos, into darkness, devour_ < Classical neut. noun *«χάος» kʰáŏs* --> _chaos_ (with obscure etymology).
4. *«Υπενθυμίζω»* [ipenθi'mizo] --> _to cause someone to remember_ < modern construction (1813) 

*** The productive prefix of Medieval & Modern Greek *«ξε-»* [kse-] derives from the Classical word-forming prefix, preposition and adverb *«ἐκ» ĕk* --> _out of, from, upwards, completely, deprive of, without_ which in aorist becomes *«ἐξ» ĕks*, and after *adjacent metathesis* *«ξε-» kse-* in Byzantine and Modern Greek, e.g.:
Anc. Greek v. (1st person present indicative) *«ἐκφεύγω ĕkpʰeúgō* --> _to escape out of_ > Aorist *«ἐξέφυγον ĕksépʰugŏn* > Aorist Byz. Gr. *«ξέφυγον kséphygon* > Byz. & Modern Gr. (1st person present indicative) *«ξεφεύγω kse'fevɣo*


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## learnerr

Russian is a very 'morphemic' language, and in relation to verbs it is very prefixal. So, three out of the four senses are conveyed by the same root (that of the verb "помнить", 'to remember', 'to keep in mind', 'to continue storing in mind') with different prefixes, and these are the cases 1, 2, and 4.

1. "запомнить", the prefix means "behind", "to the back", like you might put something in the back of your house to store it; "to secure in memory".
2. "вспомнить", the prefix means "to the up", like you might try to get a thing that is being stored somewhere in the back of a heap of things; you lift it up.
4. "напомнить", the prefix means "onto something", like you might drive someone onto remembering what you need him to remember.

In the case 3, one says "не забудь" ("don't forget") or "помни" (imperative of the verb "помнить", that's without any prefixes). The verb "забыть" consists of the already mentioned prefix "за" ("behind") and the stem "быть" ("to be"), so the whole should mean "to happen to be behind something", and we take this to mean "to forget". Imperative of the verb "забыть" is "забудь", "не" is the negative particle.


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## ThomasK

@Apmoy: I thought _thymos _had to do with more emotional things. Can it also refer to passion, urge, will, even anger, etc., as the English Wikipedia suggests? Are there any traces of _thymo_- in present-day English words? Could it also refer to mood, or something the like?

@Learnerr: I am not sure I can transcribe exactly but could it be related to _thymos _in Greek? is your word something like /pomin.../?


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## learnerr

What this word is related to I don't know (apmoy says the Greek word is related to the Russian "дым", which is a very different word), but it shares its root with the Russian word for "memory", that is "память". The root is 'pom'/'pam', I think, with variations for the vowel depending on the word.


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## arielipi

Hebrew:
1. I am trying to learn the words, but I cannot remember them. [store in one's memory, French _retenir]  
2. I have learnt the word, but I cannot recall (remember ?) it. [recall from memory, French se rappeler]
3. Remember (you need) to study that [don't forget, keep/bear in mind, French penser à ... ? ] ... 
4. Remind him that he must study 


_1. לזכור lizkor
2.להיזכר lehizacher
3. תזכור tizkor, the true way it should be said is היזכר hizacher
4. הזכר hazker.


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## ThomasK

Can you give us root words inside those words, Arielipi? just asking because in the four languages I know (and in some others I know less), all those verbs are derivations of a 'key verb', with one prefix added to it. Here it seems not to be the case, although there might be some root like 'hiz' in 2 and 3.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: I thought _thymos _had to do with more emotional things. Can it also refer to passion, urge, will, even anger, etc., as the English Wikipedia suggests? Are there any traces of _thymo_- in present-day English words? Could it also refer to mood, or something the like?
> ...


It is. For the ancient Greeks the gland _thymus_ (located in front of the heart and behind the sternum in humans) was the energy centre in human body. Homer for example names negative emotions as being, *«θυμοφθόρα» tʰŭmŏpʰtʰóră* (neut. nom. pl.) --> lit. _destroying the thymus_, metaph. _soul/life-destroying_. Anger is indeed in both ancient and modern Gr, *«θυμός»* (i.e. the product of thymus), while the verb is *«θυμόω/θυμῶ» tʰŭmóō (uncontracted) / tʰūmô (contracted)* (Classical Greek), *«θυμώνω»* [θi'mono] (Modern Greek).


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## arielipi

The root in all of them is ז-כ-ר z-ch/k-r


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## ThomasK

@Apmoy: wow, very interesting indeed! 

@Arielipi: I did not realize they had the same root. Does it mean something like 'memory'? Do you then have nouns based on that too, such as 'my memory', etc. ?


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## ancalimon

Turkish:

1. anımsamak  (an : moment , anı : memory, anımsa : remember)
2. aklına gelmek (to come to mind)
3. Unutma (don't forget)
4. anımsatmak (to make remember)


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## ThomasK

Are you suggesting there is more than an etymological link (a semantic link) between 'moment' and 'memory'? Could you translate 2 literally?


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## arielipi

yes thomas, it is used for anything that you can come up with memory, memoir, remembrance and etc.


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## ahmedcowon

arielipi said:


> The root in all of them is ז-כ-ר z-ch/k-r



The same in Arabic, the root ذكر /th-k-r/ is used for anything related to memory, this root is also used for words such as "male" and "masculine".

to remember = تذكر /tathakkara/ (used in 1,2,3)
to remind = ذكر /thakkara/ (used in 4)
to mention = ذكر /thakara/


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## ThomasK

Can (Turkish) men remember better? ;-) Just a coincidence, I guess, or ... ?


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## bibax

Czech:

1) *zapamatovati si* = "to store in memory";
2) *vzpomenouti si* = "to recall from memory";
3) *pamatovati si* = "to keep in memory"; in the given context we use also *nezapomeň!* = don't forget! (*zapomenouti* = to forget);
4) *připomenouti* (si) = to remind;

1) 2) 3) are reflexive verbs (si = reflexive pronoun in dative);
4) can be reflexive (I have to remind myself ... = musím si připomenout ...);

It's similar to Russian with some differences:

zapamatovati si = запомнить, but zapomenouti means to forget (= забыть in Russian; *zabýti is not used in Czech);
vzpomenouti si = вспомнить;
pamatovati si = помнить;
připomenouti = напомнить; but *napomenouti* means to admonish;

*paměť* = память = memory (noun);


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## learnerr

The funniest one, I think, is that in Russian the sense of «запамятовать» is exactly opposite: it means 'to forget', and it sounds like an excuse (in the sense, "I didn't forget that intentionally, but it turned out that while storing it, I moved it into the back of my memory"). The same with "admonish": it means «припомнить» in Russian, the other way around than in Czech. I think that in Russian the person who is said to remember the bad things is more the one who admonishes than the one who is being admonished: sometimes the verb "припомнить" is used without any connotations about bad things, just in the sense "I remembered on that occasion that ..."


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## ThomasK

Another observation: most languages seem to use a prefix + verb form. I am not so sure about Turkish, Hebrew, ...


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## arielipi

in 1&2 the ל is a prefix, = to
EDIT: it is actually called shem pe'ula - name of action


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## ThomasK

What I  also thought is that in Western European languages there seem to be hardly any verbs referring to remembering in their roots, if we forget about 'memorize', etc. We do have a separate difficult word for 'memory', geheugen, but the root is quite uncommon. We use very general words (_venir, houden/ hold, inner_, etc.) to build on. 

Both Finnish and Estonian seem to have a root of its own for remembering, if I can rely on Google Translate at least...


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> Both Finnish and Estonian seem to have a root of its own for remembering, if I can rely on Google Translate at least...



Yes, at least in Finnish this is true: *muistaa *"to remember". This verb would work for 1,2 and 3, although for the specific context of #3, I think it's more common to say *Älä unohda* "Don't forget". For #4, Finnish uses *muistuttaa* "to remind", which is based on _muistaa_ + the causative suffix _-tta-_.

"to memorize" is _painaa muistiin_, literally "to press into (one's) memory".


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## Gavril

learnerr said:


> Russian is a very 'morphemic' language, and in relation to verbs it is very prefixal. So, three out of the four senses are conveyed by the same root (that of the verb "помнить", 'to remember', 'to keep in mind', 'to continue storing in mind') with different prefixes, and these are the cases 1, 2, and 4.
> 
> 1. "запомнить", the prefix means "behind", "to the back", like you might put something in the back of your house to store it; "to secure in memory".
> 2. "вспомнить", the prefix means "to the up", like you might try to get a thing that is being stored somewhere in the back of a heap of things; you lift it up.



I think Slovene has a similar contrast: _Ni morem si zapomniti_ means "I can't remember", whereas _Ne spomnim se_ means "I don't remember".



> 4. "напомнить", the prefix means "onto something", like you might drive someone onto remembering what you need him to remember.



Here I think Slovene would use _spomniti_ transitively: _spomni ga _"remind him", etc.



> In the case 3, one says "не забудь" ("don't forget") or "помни" (imperative of the verb "помнить", that's without any prefixes). The verb "забыть" consists of the already mentioned prefix "за" ("behind") and the stem "быть" ("to be"), so the whole should mean "to happen to be behind something", and we take this to mean "to forget". Imperative of the verb "забыть" is "забудь", "не" is the negative particle.



"remember (imperative)" = Slov. _zapomni si_, from _zapomniti_ + the dative reflexive pronoun _si_
"don't forget" = _ne pozabi, _where _pozabiti _is _забыть_ plus another prefix_ po-_.


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## arielipi

ahmedcowon said:


> The same in Arabic, the root ذكر /th-k-r/ is used for anything related to memory, this root is also used for words such as* "male" and "masculine".*


same goes for hebrew.


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## ThomasK

But could you think of some explanation, Arielipi and Ahmed? They might just be homophones, but not the same root.


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## arielipi

In hebrew i can think of an explanation taken from the bible actually, ummm, doing circumcision leaves a memoir of something  but i only throw an idea without checking.


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## ThomasK

That is indeed not entirely implausible... But it would be great if you could substantiate that hypothesis...


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## arielipi

ThomasK said:


> That is indeed not entirely implausible... But it would be great if you could substantiate that hypothesis...


I dont think it will be appropriate here


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## francisgranada

*Hungarian
*
1. Megjegyezni (to memorize)
2. Emlékezni (to remember), 
3. Emlékezni (to remember), gondolni (to think)
4. Emlékeztetni (to make remember)

There are also other expressions, e.g. _eszébe juttatni_ (remind, lit. "to get in his/her mind"), etc...


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## ThomasK

Do I then recognize the same root three times ? Or does 1 have the same root? --- Could you comment on the _meg_-, the _em_- and the infix -_tet_ (or is that just the causative infix?)?


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## apmoy70

francisgranada said:


> *Hungarian
> *
> 1. Megjegyezni (to memorize)
> ...


To memorise: *«Απομνημονεύω»* [apomnimo'nevo] < Classical Gr. v. *«ἀπομνημονεύω» ăpŏmnēmŏneúō* --> _to remember, relate from memory, call to mind_ < compound; prefix & preposition *«ἀπὸ» apò* --> _far away, away from_ (PIE *h₂epo-, _from_ cf Skt. अप (apa), _off, away_, Lat. ab, Proto-Germanic *ab > Ger. ab, Dut. af/ave, Eng. of/off, Dan./Is. af, Swe./Nor. av) + Class. fem. noun *«μνήμη» mnḗmē* --> _memory_ (PIE *mneh₂-, _to remind_ cf Skt. (adj.) आम्नात (amnAta), _committed to memory_, आमनति (Amanati), _to commit to memory_).
Memoirs (literary genre): *«Απομνημονεύματα»* [apomnimo'nevmata] (nom. neut. pl.) < Classical nom. neut. pl. noun *«ἀπομνημονεύματα» ăpŏmnēmŏneúmată* (first ever recorded use by Xenophon late 4th c. BCE).

 Forgot to add in my previous post that in Classical Gr. the _remember _verb used mostly was *«μιμνήσκω» mĭmnḗskō* (Attic var. *«μιμνήσκομαι» mĭmnḗskŏmai* (deponent), Aeol. *«μιμναίσκω» mĭmnaískō*) < Class. fem. noun *«μνήμη» mnḗmē* --> _memory_ (PIE *mneh₂-, _to remind_).


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> Do I then recognize the same root three times ? ... Could you comment on the _meg_-, the _em_- and the infix -_tet_ (or is that just the causative infix?)?


The root is _eml-._ It´s original exact meaning is unclear (at least to me), but see the following examples to have an idea:

említ - he/she/it mentions
emleget - he/she/it mentions repeatedly, often
emlék - souvenir, reminiscence, remembrance, relic ...
emlékszik - he/she/it remembers 
emlékezet - memory

-tet/-tat: a causative infix (you are perfectly right)

meg-: a prefix that makes the verb perfective 
In this particular case _jegyezni _(without meg-) has a slightly different meaning, namely "to mark", "to make notes" ... (approximately). The root is _jegy _(sign, mark, ticket, note ...)


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## ThomasK

Two very interesting contributions, but  need more time... Thanks.


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## ancalimon

There is also a weird coincidence (or something which can be explained but I haven't heard any explanation) in Turkish:

unutmak (verb): to forget
anıt (noun): memorial, monument

anmak (verb): to commemorate, to remember.

ant: the drink (kımız) which two people drank after dripping three drops of their blood in the bowl. The verb form is and içmek (to drink ant). It means "to promise", "to create alliance", "to swear an oath".  I love this word a lot because there is a full letter of this word inside old Turkic Alphabet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_NT.svg  It's the depiction of a bowl with three drops of blood inside it.


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## ThomasK

I am not quite sure I can see the links, Ancalimon: _an- _and _unut_- could be opposites, I guess/ understand. Of course _anit _and _ant _could easily be linked semantically: both are testimonies of/ to  something to remember. But maybe I am underestimating the complexity... You tell me...


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> I am not quite sure I can see the links, Ancalimon: _an- _and _unut_- could be opposites, I guess/ understand. Of course _anit _and _ant _could easily be linked semantically: both are testimonies of/ to  something to remember. But maybe I am underestimating the complexity... You tell me...



I mean what's the logic behind giving the meaning of remembering to the word "an~" and the meaning of forgetting to "un~". There could be some logic behind this because there are many words like this in Turkic languages. Maybe related to natural sounds we make when they remember  (aa) something or forget something (uu).


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## ThomasK

Do you really produce different sounds depending on whether you remember or whether you forget? Quite interesting.


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## arielipi

ThomasK said:


> Do you really produce different sounds depending on whether you remember or whether you forget? Quite interesting.


In hebrew when one is thinking you will hear ehhh or hmmm (borrowed), but when one is trying to recall or creating (inventing/brainstorming) you will hear more often aaaa or emmm


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## ger4

In German:

(1) 'to store (something) in one's memory': _(etwas) im Kopf behalten_
- _etwas_ = indef. pronoun: 'something'
- _im_ = preposition: 'in(side)' + definite article
- _Kopf_ = noun: 'head'
- _behalten_ = verb: 'to keep' - prefix be- + halten ('to hold') 

(2) 'to recall (something) from memory': _sich (an etwas) erinnern_
-  _sich_ = reflexive pronoun
- _an etwas_ ~ 'about something'
-  _erinnern_ = verb: prefix er-* + innern < _das Innere_ ~ 'the interior'

(3) 'to not forget, keep in mind, bear in mind (something)': _(an etwas) denken_
- _an etwas_ ~ 'about something'
-  _denken_ = verb: _denken_ ('to think')

(4) 'make  remember, make think of something': _daran erinnern_
- _daran_ ~ 'about that'
- _erinnern_ = as in (2), but here it is used as a transitive verb

* the prefix _er-_ has many different functions... here it is used similarly to 're-' in 'remember'


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