# FR: un/l'/d'autre, d'/les/des/aux autres



## erikayn

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one. Consequently, this is a long thread with many examples. To summarize:

Indefinite noun: _un autre_ (sing.) [another (one)] / _d'autres _(plur.) [(some) others].
Definite noun: _l'autre_ (sing.) [the other (one)] / _les autres_ (plur.) [the others, the other ones, other people].
Adjective: _autre(s)_ usually precedes the noun, but: _quelque chose d'autre_ [something else], _rien d'autre_ [nothing else].
Note: Articles follow the usual rules for when there is an adjective preceding the noun. Therefore we have _les amis, les autres amis_ and _un ami, un autre ami_ but _des amis, d'autres amis_.
When preceded by some prepositions, the article is contracted as per the standard rule:
preposition _de + d'autre(s) = d'autre(s)_.
preposition _de + les autres = des autres_.
preposition _à + les autres = aux autres_.

If you need more detail, keep reading.

Je n'arrive pas a comprendre la différence entre des autres et d'autres.  J'ai l'impression qu'on n'utilise "d'autres" que dans le cas ou il est un adjectif qui précède un nom. Mais je viens de perdre des points dans un examen pour ne pas avoir utilise "d'autres" après "certains". Je n'ai pas la phrase devant moi, mais celle-ci est probablement comparable:

Certains aiment les pommes, des autres (-v- d'autres) préfèrent les poivres.

J'apprécierais beaucoup si quelqu'un pouvait m'aider a comprendre!


----------



## Youppi

C'est une question difficile. En lisant ton example, il me semble evident que l'on doit utiliser "d'autres" dans ce cas, mais expliquer pourquoi... 

En fait, dans ce cas, "d'autres" est utilise comme sujet du verbe "preferent". "Des autres" ne sera jamais le sujet d'un verbe. 

"Des autres" veut dire "of the others", par exemple la maison des autres. 

"D'autres" veut dire "others", par exemple d'autres personnes = other people. Ou d'autres n'aiment pas les patates = others don't like potatoes. 

I hope this helps!


----------



## fern88

Hello,

I am having trouble deciding when to use "d'" or "des" preceding "autres".

For example, the following sentences use *d'*:
1) Je peux visiter *d'*autres pays.
2) J'ai toujours voulu connaitre *d'*autres cultures.

This sentence uses *des*:
3) J'aime apprendre des nouvelles choses à propos *des* autres pays.

Can somebody please explain the difference?
Thank you


----------



## Gil

à propos *des* autres pays.=> about those other countries
à propos *d'*autres pays.  => about other countries


----------



## jones the jones

can anyone tell me, in the sentence "autres exemples incluent..." (other examples include) would i use "des" or "d'autres?"
I am sure it is a basic rule, but I can't work it out  Merci d'avance!


----------



## DearPrudence

I think that
*"other + plural noun" *is always:*
"d'autres + nom pluriel*

But no doubt I will be proved wrong


----------



## Waninou

*Je t'ai déjà dit de ne pas t'occuper des autres enfants quand ....  (the other children)*

*Je t'avais conseillé de ne pas t'occuper d'autres enfants! (more children)*

Qui n'ont d'ailleurs pas le même sens.

Désolé, je suis d'humeur taquine !


----------



## tilt

The rule is to say _des autres_ to mean _all the others_, and _d'autres_ to mean _some others_.


----------



## DaniL

Est-ce qu'on ne dit pas :" Les autres exemples incluent..." ?


----------



## DearPrudence

If you mean *"The other examples ...*", then, yes


----------



## Mugicha

The film "La Vie des Autres" translates to "The Lives of Others" in English.

i.e. the English does without the determinant "des"

Would a French native be able to explain why the title of the film isn't "La Vie d'Autres"?

Thank you!


----------



## e_caduc

I am not French, but I think I can explain. The plural form of _un autre_ is _d'autres_, while the plural form of _de l'autre_ is _des autres_. Example: j'ai un autre livre-j'ai d'autres livres. Rangez ce livre a cote de l'autre-Rangez ce livre a cote des autres.
Does this help?


----------



## Blancheneige

That is because "les autres" is a noun. Singular : "l'autre". Plural "Les autres". "*Des autres*" is the contraction of "de les autres"
On the other hand, you would write "J'ai rencontré *d'autres *personnes", because here "autres" is an adjective.
In other words, the elision only takes place before an adjective. Does it make it any clearer ?


----------



## joleen

I think it's because if you said "la vie d'autres", it would be too precise.

Take another example:
La vie d'Alain = one Alain in particular is concerned.
La vie de l'Alain = Alain is considered as species . It's the idea of the movie, to have a glance at the species that the human being is, and what he sees about his neighbours (as another species)


----------



## Mugicha

Thank you for your help. I think I hadn't understood the difference between the adjective form and the noun form, so thank you for clarifying that.

Joleen- thanks for the connotation of the film title, that makes great sense.

One more question: does "autre(s)" in the adjective form ever not take "de"?


----------



## jfca09

What is the difference between _*d'*autre*s*_ and _des autres_?  I have seen them both used.


----------



## Tabac

jfca09 said:


> What is the difference between _*d'*autre*s*_ and _des autres_? I have seen them both used.


A quick, incomplete answer, since you've provided no context.

With expressions using de (avoir besoin etc.) use _d'autres_.

Before a plural adjective before the noun: _J'ai d'autres raisons pour dire cela._
   In negative:  _je n'ai pas d'autre raison..._

If the English can be rendered with 'the', use _des_: _Quelques-unes des filles se sont amusées hier soir; beaucoup des autres sont parties de bonne heure._


----------



## Archilocus

[...]

J'ajouterai que dans vos deux exemples, autres n'a pas le même statut. d'autres idées : *autres*_ pronom ;_ j'ai besoin des autres, *autres *_nom_


----------



## jfca09

Archilocus said:


> J'ajouterai que dans vos deux exemples, autres n'a pas le même statut. d'autres idées : *autres*_ pronom ;_ j'ai besoin des autres, *autres *_nom_



So, to clarify, I would say:
_
"D'autres *cas* sont importants....."_
or
_"Des autres sont importants...."_
?


----------



## jann

> _ "D'autres *cas* sont importants....." _
> or
> _"Des autres sont importants...." _



In _d'autres idées, _the word _autres_ is an adjective.  What kind of ideas, which ideas?  Other ideas.

In _j'ai besoin des autres_ = I need the others/the other ones, the word _autres_ is a pronoun.  It replaces the unknown noun from a previous (unstated) sentence, that would tell us what other ones the speaker is talking about.

Jfca09, maybe it will help you to think of it this way:

If you say _des autres_, you are really saying _de + les autres_... so you are talking about "the others," those specific other ones.  The word "the" would need to be there in the English sentence.  
_J'ai besoin des autres livres, ceux que je t'ai donnés hier_ = I need the other books, the ones I gave you yesterday.
_Je me souviens des autres fois que nous l'avons vu_, _mais pas celle dont tu me parles._ = I remember the other times that we saw it, but not the one you mention.

Remember that we need to use the definite article when we want to talk about "other people" in French: _les autres_.  If you want to say, "other people's tastes" that is _Le goût des autres_ (it happens to be a famous movie title).

On the other hand, if you are just saying "other Xs" or "some other Ys" then you are not speaking of specific ones.  The word "the" would not be present in English, you don't need _les_ in French, and so you just have _de + autres_ = _d'autres_.

_J'ai besoin d'autres livres = _I need (some) other books.
_Il y aura d'autres occasions_ = There will be other chances.
_Certains sont moches, d'autres sont très jolis. = _Some are ugly, others are quite pretty.

Does that help at all; do you see the difference?


----------



## jfca09

[...]

Actually, I'm still unclear, because when saying "the other," would you say "LES autres" instead of "DES autres" ? I'm probably missing something here...


----------



## jann

> Actually, I'm still unclear, because when saying "the other," would you say "LES autres" instead of "DES autres" ? I'm probably missing something here...



The other what?  The answer to how to say it in French will depend on the context.  Give me an example sentence...

One thing though:  "the other" is singular... whereas everything we have mentioned so far is about _autre*s*_, plural.


----------



## jfca09

jann said:


> One thing though:  "the other" is singular... whereas everything we have mentioned so far is about _autre*s*_, plural.



Yeah, that was a typo.



jann said:


> The other what? The answer to how to say it in French will depend on the context. Give me an example sentence...



So, I want to say "The law protects the dignity of other students" and "This law seems to be different from other laws."  In both cases, I used _d'autres_, but I don't know if that's right.


----------



## jann

It is certainly correct to use _d'autres lois_ in this example, because you are saying "different from other laws (in general)" and not "different from THE (specific) other laws."

I am having trouble with understanding the function of the word "other" in "protects the dignity of other students."  

The law doesn't protect the dignity of some students, but does protect the dignity of others?   If this is so, we will need more context (ie. surrounding sentences) because the choice between _des _and _d' _will be determined by what exactly you mean to say and how you decide to formulate it.

Or are you just saying that this law protects student dignity (in general)?  If this is the case, you should leave the word _autres_ out of the French version entirely.


----------



## jfca09

jann said:


> The law doesn't protect the dignity of some students, but does protect the dignity of others?   If this is so, we will need more context (ie. surrounding sentences) because the choice between _des _and _d' _will be determined by what exactly you mean to say and how you decide to formulate it.


Sorry for the ambiguity.  I'm talking about the French law banning conspicuous religious clothing in schools.  I'm trying to say that one of the arguments for the law is that it protects students not wearing the clothing ("other students") from religious distractions at school.  Does that help clarify?


----------



## juninho8

What is the difference between d'autres and autres because I have seen both.

Quelle est la position de vous par rapport aux autres/à d'autres?

merci d'avance


----------



## silversmash

d'autres just means  on the one hand and autres means on the other


----------



## juninho8

I noticed in the dictionary that there's "autre" for "other" as in a different one and "d'autres" for plural so if I wanted to say "to the others" would it be "aux autres" or "à d'autres"?

thanks for your help!


----------



## juninho8

It's just I'm writing this little essay thing and want to say "compared to the others" so I googled both and got loads of results.

compared to the others - par rapport aux autres/par rapport à d'autres

thanks


----------



## XIII56

It is the same in English :
aux autres = to the others
à d'autres = to others



juninho8 said:


> Quelle est la position de vous par rapport aux autres/à d'autres?


Here you have to say _Quelle est *votre* position par rapport aux autres ? _


----------



## juninho8

ah yes makes sense à d'autres means "to others" and aux autres means "to the others" merci beaucoup pour votre aide!


----------



## bjankovic

I have read that *d'autres* is the indefinite determiner plural for autre. Does this mean that *des autres* does not exist and is never used?


----------



## detewe89

Si, "des autres" est employé aussi.
Si ce n'est pas le sens partitif, par exemple: "Ce sont les livres des autres (étudiants/...)."


----------



## bjankovic

so is it correct to conclude:

d'autres - others
des autres - of others


----------



## detewe89

Exactement, c'est la même chose chez d'autres mots aussi:

D'anciennes cultures m'intéressent beaucoup.
Les rois des anciennes cultures furent souvent des absolutistes.

Il existe beaucoup d'hommes sages.
Il a appris beaucoup des hommes sages.


Dans l'espoir pour la confirmation des indigènes...
detewe89


----------



## Fred_C

detewe89 said:


> Si, "des autres" est employé aussi.
> Si ce n'est pas le sens partitif, par exemple: "Ce sont les livres des autres (étudiants/...)."


That is cheating.
here, "des autres" is the contraction of de + les autres.

The indefinite article "des" (or partitive article) becomes "de" before an adjective.
and the "de" is eluded before a vowel.
So technically, "des autres" should not exist when "des" is either indefinite or partitive.


----------



## bjankovic

I see what you are saying, but if it is used as as a contraction of de + les autres (the others) it is contracted with a definite article, not indefinite or partitive.


----------



## geostan

bjankovic said:


> I have read that *d'autres* is the indefinite determiner plural for autre. Does this mean that *des autres* does not exist and is never used?



Let's simplify this:

_d'autres_ is* indefinite* = other(s), or some other(s)

_des autres_ is only possible when the *definite* article is involved.

of the other(s), from the other(s).

Cheers!


----------



## sudest

*autre / d'autre*

I looked through the dictionaries but I can't find something different between two. What is the difference between them especially in terms of grammar?


----------



## jann

*Autre(s)* is an adjective.  It can be singular or plural. 

_J'ai une autre idée = _I have another idea.  
_Il a l'autre stylo. = _He has the other pen.
_Ils ont vu un autre appartement._ = They saw another apartment.

_Elle voudrait acheter d'autres livres_. = She would like to buy (some) other books.
*the reason you use d' here is because "des" becomes "de" when there is an adjective before the noun, and de become d' when the next word starts with a vowel or nonaspirate H --> _des stylos _but_ de nouveaux stylos_; _des amis _but_ d'anciens amis; des livres _but_ d'autres livres.
_
_Les bureaux des autres ministres sont au 2e étage_ = The offices of the other ministers are on the 2nd floor.
 *de + les = des.  Les bureaux de + les autres ministres = les bureaux des autres ministres

_Je veux te présenter à quelqu'un d'autre = _I want to introduce you to someone else.
*the reason you use d' here is because the only way to add an adjective to describe an indefinite (_quelqu'un, quelque chose_) is to say _quelqu'un de + _adjective, _quelque chose__ de + _adjective... and de becomes d' if that adjective starts with a vowel  or nonaspirate H.  -->_ quelqu'un de nouveau, __quelqu'un d'aimable, __quelque chose__ d'intéressant, etc.


_*Autre(s)* is also a pronoun.  It takes the number and gender of the thing it replaces: 

_Tu peux garder mon stylo, j'en ai un autre_. = You can keep my pen, I have another one.
_ Maman, j'ai fini ma part de gâteau, je peux en prendre une autre ? _= Mom, I finished my piece of cake, may I take another one?
_Les autres sont venus plus tard._ = The others came later.

_Des marques à choisir, d'autres à éviter_ = Some brands to pick, some others to avoid.
* Just like the "other books" example above.  You would say _d'autres marques_, and the fact that you use _autres_ as a pronoun to avoid repeating _marques_ in the second half of the sentence doesn't change anything.

_Je n'aime pas trop les enfants des autres._ = I don't really like other people's children.
* To speak about "other people" we say _les autres_.  To speak about someone's children, we say _les enfants de + _[person].  De + les = des, so _les enfants de + les autres = les enfants des autres



_As you can see, _autre_ behaves like any other adjective or pronoun, even in terms of whether or not you need a "de" in front of it.  I hope it helps.


----------



## spiderplant

Bonjour,
I'm quite confused.  I believe I should use the construction "d'autres amis", but I've hear others say "des autres".  So, is it possible to use "des autres amis"?

Merci beaucoup!


----------



## FranParis

Don't be confused.

It's possible to use "des autres amis" but in such rare situations that they are not worth to mention.

You should always use "d'autres amis"..


----------



## OLN

I think _des autres amis_ can be used for example in a genitive construction 

_des uns, des autres_ gén. de _les uns, les autres_ 

_c'est la voiture des autres amis de mon frère, ceux dont je te parlais hier _(pluriel défini)


I agree it should be  : 
_d'autres amis arriveront demain, je leur préfère de loin d'autres amis, je me suis fait d'autres amis_ (pluriel indéfini)


----------



## Merpero

I don't know if you knew this *Spiderplant*, but there is a *grammatical rule* that says *if a noun is preceded by an adjective *(for example, as you may already know, "*bon*" "*grand*" "*petit*" are adjectives that always go before the noun) *then you only ever put "de or d'* . That is, you never put the other versions of the partitive article such as *"du, de la, des"*

I have just seen what OLN has written, just now, and I don't think that what I have said clashes with this, as OLN was speaking of *genitive* constructions, and what I have said applies to *partitive* constructions.(In plain English, "*partitive*" just means "*some*"as far as I know anyway!)


----------



## spiderplant

Great!
In my case, I will use "d'autres amis".  What I understand as the exception, "des autres amis", is used to indicate possession by friends who have already been mentioned.  So, in this particular case it's "de" + "les"; "de" expresses possession and then the definite article is used since it's refering to these specific friends.  Here the "des" is not functionning as the partitive and therefore does not change to "d'" before a plural adjective.

merci mille fois


----------



## mas2009

Salut

  Je suis un peu confus à propos de la différence entre ‘des autres’ et ‘d’autres’.  Existe-il l’expression ‘des autres’.  Je suis sûr que je l’ai écouté plusieurs fois.  Quand faut-il utiliser ‘des autres’ et quand est-il mieux d’utiliser ‘d’autres’.  Y a-t-il une règle ?

  Merci.


----------



## no_cre0

"Nous trouvons d'autres examples dans le texte"
"Il vient avec des autres de sa classe"


----------



## AlexAnnA

Des autres = the others / d'autres = other

_La vie des autres_ (sous-entendu "des autres personnes", ici)
_Est-ce que tu parles des pays de l'Union Européenne? - Non, je te parle des autres_ (sous-entendu "des autres pays", ici)


----------



## geostan

no_cre0 said:


> "Nous trouvons d'autres examples dans le texte"
> "Il vient avec des autres de sa classe"



_des autres_ comporte toujours l'article défini.

d'autres (other[s])

des autres (of the/from the other[s])

L'emploi de _des autres_ pour _d'autres_ est une faute fréquente chez les apprenants anglophones.


----------



## tilt

geostan said:


> _des autres_ comporte toujours l'article défini.
> 
> d'autres (other[s])
> 
> des autres (of the/from the other[s])
> 
> L'emploi de _des autres_ pour _d'autres_ est une faute fréquente chez les apprenants anglophones.


_Des autres _est en effet la contraction de _de les autres_, et non _autres _précédés de l'article indéfini pluriel.


----------



## Nikkib7

when do you use: d'autres versus des autres


----------



## demon001

D'autres indicates others similar to the first. Des autres means others different from the first.
	 	  Des femmes sont venues prier sur les tombes, d'autres apportèrent des fleurs.

Des gens criaient dans la rue, des autres leur lançaient des pierres


----------



## Nicomon

demon001 said:


> Des gens criaient dans la rue, des autres leur lançaient des pierres


 I would have said « _d'autres_ » also. This example is the same pattern as the first. Or is there something I don't get? 

I would say « _des autres_ » in sentences like this: 
_- Le bonheur des uns fait le malheur des autres._ (here, « _autres_ » is a noun)
_- Comparez vos scores avec ceux des autres internautes !  _

Grammar teaching isn't my strength - and someone please correct if I'm wrong - but in a nutshell, I think it goes like this:
_- d'autres = some other_
_- des autres = de les autres (de les -> des) = the/all other_

Here's a bilingual example in which French uses both:


> Use containers that are large enough to prevent raw juices from dripping *onto other food *or touching other food.
> Keep *raw food away from other food* while shopping, storing, preparing and serving foods.
> 
> Utilisez des contenants suffisamment grands pour empêcher que le jus s'égoutte *sur* *d'autres aliments* ou ne touche à ceux-ci.
> Au moment d'acheter, de ranger ou de préparer les aliments, *séparez les aliments crus des autres aliments*.


----------



## Geysere

Agnès E. said:


> ... *certains* sont venus à la soirée, mais *d'autres* non.


Pourquoi on utilise "d'autres" mais pas "les autres" ici?


----------



## Cardinasty

Because "d'autres" is the indefinite article, you don't know whom "others" include. Whereas "les autres" is the definite one which means "THE others".

ex :

Des chiens = Dogs
Les chiens =  The dogs

Des autres / d'autres = Others
Les autres = The others


----------



## Geysere

Thanks Cardinasty, I didn't notice the nuances... But now I'm still puzzled: One either comes to the party or doesn't come to the party, so why is it indefinite for those didn't come to the party? I mean, what's the difference between:
Some came to the party and others did not.
Some came to the party and the others did not.


----------



## jann

_Some came to the party and others did not. _
--> "others" = people in general

_Some came to the party and the others did not._
 --> "the others" = a specific group of people  that you had already mentioned earlier (or a subset thereof).   But this is a very strange sentence, and it does not sound natural in English.

[…]

You may wish to review the function of the definite article in French.


----------



## Giorgio Spizzi

Some came to the party and others did not = Some came to the party and _some_ others did not. Speaker simply refers to two subsets of the same "population" (or "universe" in statistical terminology).
Some came to the party and _the_ others did not = Some came to the party and _all_ the others did not. Speaker compares the behaviour of one subset to the behaviour of the rest of the "population".


----------



## Geysere

Thanks jann! Your post in the other thread helps a lot!


----------



## danny-chien

Salut

The rule usually goes 'de + pl. adj. + pl. n.', I know. However, there are some compound nouns and the rule doesn't apply, i.e. 'des jeunes femmes', as 'jeunes femmes' is one concept, correct? 

I have seen both 'd'autres cultures' and 'des autres cultures'. Which is correct and how can you distinguish between these 'given concepts' and just normal, pre-modified plural nouns? 

My gut instinct is telling me it's 'd'autres cultures', but I'd be grateful for any help.

Merci bien,

Danny-chien


----------



## cropje_jnr

Well it could be either or both, depending on context.

If you're saying "there are other cultures" I would go for "il y a / il existe d'autres cultures", but you can probably say either in, for instance, "la France subit parfois l'influence d'autres / des autres cultures".


----------



## facinorousgreekpoet

When you are using the genitive/possessive, the "de" can become separate from "autres" when referring to something definite. It is possible to translate the "La France subit parfois l'influence d'autres/des autres cultures" as the following:

France is sometimes subject to the influence of other cultures. (in general)
France is sometimes subject to the influence of the other cultures (where "the" refers to something previously mentioned).

I don't believe there is any hard and fast grammar rule about this, but someone else might have one to offer you. It is important to consider the context.


----------



## geostan

_Des_ (partitive) normally reduces to _de_ before a plural adjective beginning with a vowel. This is especially the case with _autres_. The use of _des_ with _autres_ involves the *definite*, not partitive article.

d'autres = (some) other...
des autres =of *the* other...

This is a very common error among students learning French.


----------



## fredlovecdl

I've encountered some examples of "de" whose 'emploi" is not very clear to me gramatically. 

Question. Nous avons vu d'autres personnes. 
Why is it not des autres...
Is it a customary expression to say 'avoir de qqch"

I appreciate your help.


----------



## Xavier11222

"De" is one of the French words with the most different possible "emplois." 

Here, it's simply an article - _nous avons vu des* autres personnes - we have seen other individuals. _

[...]

And welcome to the forums!


----------



## squirrel_frog

Hi

What is the difference between these two phrases?

In this context, which one is more appropriate.

"Mais les réactions des autres/d'autres sont révélatrices"

I am referring to a group of people who have witnessed an event.

Thanks


----------



## veronique.evers

hello,

in that sentence you can only write "les réactions des autres", the other one simply does not sound ok.


----------



## Guill

I guess it's the same difference as "others" vs "the others"...
"des autres" is used when one knows exactly who they are talking about.
"d'autres" is more general, and none of the representatives have to know who they're talking about.


----------



## Jean-Michel Carrère

*des = de les *
hence 

les réactions des autres : the other people's reactions 

les réactions d'autres personnes : other people's reactions


----------



## TheLinguist

Actually, with any adjective preceding a noun in proper French, *des* becomes *de* or *d'.*

For example:

*un nouveau stylo* becomes *de nouveaux stylos*
*un autre stylo* becomes *d'autres stylos*
_
J'achèterai de nouveaux stylos demain.
Est-ce que tu as d'autres stylos ?_

However, in common colloquial French, *des* is often used regardless of this grammar rule.  So if you are speaking informally, you can use *des* instead of *de* or *d'*.  If you're writing a formal letter or essay, it would be a good idea to use *de *or *d'.*


More over, if you are using *autre *as a noun, *des *is always used since autre is not being used as an adjective.

This grammar rule, however, *only occurs* when the adjective precedes the noun.  If the adjective comes after the noun, then *des* is always used.


----------



## moonfrogii

jann said:


> In _j'ai besoin des autres_ = I need the others/the other ones, the word _autres_ is a pronoun.  It replaces the unknown noun from a previous (unstated) sentence, that would tell us what other ones the speaker is talking about.




Je ne veux pas abîmer cette belle réponse, mais l’expression « avoir besoin de », je pensais que ce n’était jamais « des », uniquement « de/d’ » ?  

Alors, la bonne phrase dirait… « J’ai besoin d’autres » , n’est-ce pas ?


----------



## Maître Capello

Non.

_J'ai besoin des autres._ (pronoun) = I need others / the other ones_
J'ai besoin d'autres personnes._ (adjective) = I need other people


----------



## geostan

Maître Capello said:


> Non.
> 
> _J'ai besoin des autres._ (pronoun) = I need others / the other ones_
> J'ai besoin d'autres personnes._ (adjective) = I need other people



I need _*the*_ others should be the translation of _J'ai besoin des autres_. The definite article is required in the English version.

Cheers!


----------



## Maître Capello

_J'ai besoin des autres_ indeed has two different meanings in French…

_J__'ai besoin des autres pour réussir._ (= I need others to succeed.) [Would you really say "*the* others" in this case? ]
_Tu as besoin de ces outils? — Non, j'ai besoin des autres._ (= Do you need these tools? — No, I need the other ones.)


----------



## jann

Maître Capello said:


> _J__'ai besoin des autres pour réussir._ (= I need others to succeed.) [Would you really say "*the* others" in this case? ]


No, we'd say "I need other people to succeed" or less ambiguously, "In order to succeed, I need other people."  

"I need others to succeed" is not grammatically wrong, and we wouldn't include "the" if we meant "other people," but this sentence is not the most natural expression of the idea... not the least because it could easily mean _J'ai besoin que des/les autres réussissent._


----------



## lucas-sp

I agree with Jann, that "J'ai besoin des autres" would be translated as "I need others to succeed" but only if we - for some bizarre reason - really, really wanted to keep that structure which isn't particularly English. I'd probably translate it as "I rely on others to succeed" or "Others/other people are necessary for success."


----------



## geostan

No, the sentence J'ai besoin des autres = J'ai besoin de +* les* autres, in which case the definite article must also be used in English. It may not be a common utterance, but there are any number of contexts where this would be an appropriate translation. If you wish to say I need (some) others, you would say J'ai besoin d'autres or J'en ai besoin d'autres.  I'm not disagreeing with Jann's general comments, but in this specific case, if the definite article is expressed in French, it should also be expressed in English.


----------



## jann

Hold on, Geostan, I think we're talking about two different things. 

As MC indicated, there are two separate meanings:

(1) In order to succeed, need the other ones.  = J'ai besoin des autres... (de + les autres [outils, etc.])
(2) In order to succeed, I need other people around. = J'ai besoin des autres... (de + "les autres")

For (1) you're surely asking, "The other ones what?!"  Obviously we need context to know what is needed.  This first meaning uses _les autres_ as a pronoun to replace some previously mentioned object: _les autres ciseaux, les autres documents, etc._  In English, we would also use a pronoun -- "ones" -- together with the definite article and "other" as an adjective --> "the other ones."  It would of course be possible to use "the others" as a pronoun too, but we usually reserve that usage for humans. 

The second meaning, however, reflects a one-off difference between French and English usage. In French, if you want to say "other people" (in general, as for a "me/us" v.s. "them/everyone else" distinction) you say _*les* autres_, even though you're not referring to "the certain specific other people."  But in English, we don't need the definite article: we just say "other people."  We can say "others," but we don't use this word that way very often.  We don't usually say "the others" in this situation, because that implies certain specific other people.  So in French we again have _de + les autres_... but in English we wouldn't use a definite article to express this particular meaning, because we're not talking about "the" other people, but rather "other people in general."  I think it's rather parallel to the mention above of the movie title _Le goût des autres_, known in English as "The Taste of Others" in the sense "other people's tastes."  So I think it is possible to translate this _de + les = des_ without the definite article...


----------



## lucas-sp

For the sake of argument, sure, it's a good idea to preserve the various articles when we're translating across languages, or at least to notice that they're there. However, I really don't see how you could believe what you're saying here. It seems like in certain situations where French uses a definite article, it would be better to use no article in English, and vice-versa. (This is fairly standard knowledge and practice in publication and translation: for instance, the title "De la grammatologie" should be translated into English as "On Grammatology," not "About the Grammatology." Similarly, the title "De la cigarette" would best be titled as "Cigarettes" or "Essay on Cigarettes.") I also don't understand how you would argue that we should translate, say "la vie des autres" as "the life of the others" - that's quite simply not English at all. We would say "other people's lives" or "the lives of others."

Of course, this is about context too. In the sentence, "Beaucoup d'animaux vivent dans la mer. La vie des autres passe par terre, dans le ciel, etc." it would be better to say "The lives of the other animals take place..." or "The lives of the others take place..." (or, even better, "The others spend their lives..."). This is what Maître Capello indicated above.

Translation isn't always about one-to-one correspondences, and sometimes the things indicated by a definite pronoun in French are better expressed in English by other means.


----------



## geostan

I'm convinced. This is indeed a peculiar example because as a rule, avoir besoin de has a quantitative completion, unless specific. Here it seems to work as a generic.


----------



## ditnn

in the following 

"des fois je mange, d'autres fois je marche"


is "d'autres" a short form for "de autres" or "des autres"?


Thank you!


----------



## Juan Jacob Vilalta

ditnn said:


> is "d'autres" a short form for "de autres"  or "des autres" ?


----------



## ditnn

Thank you! so it is unlike the case "de grands restaurants"? 
(de + plural adjective + plural noun )


----------



## Maître Capello

I beg to disagree, JJV. That _d'_ is definitely not the elision of _des_. As hinted by ditnn, it is indeed exactly the same _de_ as when an adjective precedes a plural noun (e.g., _de grands restaurants_). As a matter of fact, _autre_ is an adjective!


----------



## ashrob

Can someone help me ? I'm not sure when "autres" is the right word to use as opposed to "d'autres". thanks a lot.


----------



## Morganlove

Hi ashrob,

"Je suis sûr qu'il y a *d'autres* solutions" you never use "autres" on its own. "*Autre* chose à acheter pour ce soir ?" you can only use the singular when you want it to be used on its own. There are some exceptions but they are not really common. 

Hope that helps


----------



## LART01

Hello Morganlove,
_des autres solutions _n'est pas correct grammaticalement, je pense. 
Des _solutions autres _( à mettre en oeuvre..) est possible aussi.


----------



## Morganlove

LART01 said:


> Hello Morganlove,
> _des autres solutions _n'est pas correct grammaticalement, je pense.
> Des _solutions autres _( à mettre en oeuvre..) est possible aussi.



_Des autres solutions_ est rarement utilisé et j'ai un doute maintenant, cela me semble en effet pas très correct grammaticalement, j'étais en train d'essayer de trouver des exemples avec "autres", ce qui n'est pas évident


----------



## ashrob

Thanks very much for your prompt answer morganlove. Just one thing though, I've heard and seen "les autres pensent que....." Is that grammatically incorrect ? If  it is possible, what is the difference between this and "d'autres pensent que........ ? Thanks again for your time.


----------



## mehoul

d'autres pensent que ... = some other people think that ...
les autres pensent que = all the other people think that ...


----------



## Morganlove

ashrob said:


> Thanks very much for your prompt answer morganlove. Just one thing though, I've heard and seen "les autres pensent que....." Is that grammatically incorrect ? If  it is possible, what is the difference between this and "d'autres pensent que........ ? Thanks again for your time.



"_les autres_ pensent que" is perfectly correct, the difference with "_d'autres_ pensent que..." is really slight, in fact when you say _*les autres*_ you rather mean "the rest", for exemple "Those people disagree about my answer, but _the others _agree with it" (here the others are the rest, right ?)

And with "_*d'autres*_" it would rather be : "Those people disagree about my answer, but _some others_ agree with it" (not obligatorily all the rest, that could be only 2 or 3 persons, right ?)

Hope you got it


----------



## Hildy1

The posts above explain very well how "d'autres" is used.

However, "des autres" can be used in some cases, such as:
 - Que pensez-vous des autres solutions? What do you think of the other solutions? 
de (of / about) + les (the) = des (of /about the)


----------



## ashrob

Thanks a lot Morganlove and Hildy 1 for your help. I understand much better now.


----------



## voovoo

Bonjour!

Est-ce que quelqu'un pourrait m'expliquer pourquoi dans la phrase suivante on ne dit pas _des autres sources des économie_ mais on dit _d'autres sources d'économie_?

Ce que je ne comprend pas c'est que on peut bien dire: _des mesures. 
_


> Le plan changement qui a été annoncé hier, inlcut des mesures comme la vente des avions et des hôtels qui ne sont pas profitables et aussin la recherche *d'autres sources  d'économies* dans ses différentes affaires.



Quelqu'un pourrait m'éclairer un peu ce sujet?


----------



## lucas-sp

Le plan inclut un ensemble de mesures qui sont déjà choisis, définis, nommés, etc. On parle ici de "*les* mesures," les mesures A, B, C, D, parce que l'ensemble de mesures est clos. 

Mais on va aussi à la recherche d'autres sources d'économies. Ni les "sources" ni les "économies" sont déjà choisies, définies, nommées, etc. L'ensemble est déjà ouvert dans ce cas et on n'utilise pas d'article.


----------



## Maître Capello

Euh, non, Lucas. Ici il s'agit bien de l'article indéfini pluriel _des_ parce que le verbe _inclure_ est transitif direct : _le plan inclut *des* mesures_ = le plan inclut *certaines/quelques* mesures.

Pour en revenir à la question initiale, il faut se rappeler que _autres_ est un adjectif et que l'article indéfini pluriel _des_ se transforme presque toujours en _de/d'_ devant un adjectif, cf. FR: de/des + adjectif + nom au pluriel. Il faut également se rappeler que si la préposition _de_ précède l'expression commençant par _de_, on supprime un des deux _de_ par haplologie :

_la recherche de d'autres sources d'économie_ → _la recherche *d'*autres sources d'économie _


----------



## jamesjaime

Bonjour,

Lequel est le bon?

_Il y en a *d'*autres_

ou

_Il y en a *des* autres_


Et pour quoi?

Merci!


----------



## Eminderala

Celui qui est bon est le premier.

Il s'agit ici de la règle de l'article contracté tel qu'expliqué ici : http://www.synapse-fr.com/manuels/ART_CONT

Pour compléter la contraction, au pluriel, on élimine le "es" pour ne garder que le d'

Je cherche la règle et je reviens


----------



## traherne

À quoi est due l'omission du partitif " d' " dans des titres de livres comme "Mondo et autres histoires"?

Merci d'avance!


----------



## Maître Capello

Bonjour,

C'est la conjonction de coordination (_et_) qui rend cette omission possible.


----------



## ringostarr

I found this on the web and it has helped me a lot, hope it helps you too

1- if you speak of other people. In this case you use "d'autres" _d'autres personnes sont arrivées
2- if you speak of things that belong or are related to other people. In this case you use "des autres". The *"des"* here is *"de les", *where "de" is the same possessive "de" that you could find in "la voiture de ma mère" for instance. Les pensées des autres varient_


----------



## CocoG

jann said:


> *Autre(s)* is also a pronoun.  It takes the number and gender of the thing it replaces:
> _...
> _As you can see, _autre_ behaves like any other adjective or pronoun, even in terms of whether or not you need a "de" in front of it.



Why is it not _des autres_ (des=l'article indéfini) but _d'autres_ when it's a pronoun? (_Un autre_, _une autre_ → _des autres_?) Is this a special case?

I've read that some grammarians treat it as an _adjectif qualificatif substantivé_. Let's take an example of a nominalised adjective:

_Stupide_ (adjective) → _un stupide_, _une stupide_ (singular noun) → _des stupides_ (plural noun)
_Ils nous prennent pour des stupides._

And now an adjective that begins with a vowel, as does _autre_:

_Audacieux_ (adjective) → _un audacieux_, _une audacieuse_ (singular noun) → _des audacieux/audacieuses_ (plural noun)
_La fortune sourit aux audacieux._ (I couldn't find an example of _des audacieux _(des=l'article indéfini), but I don't see why it should be grammatically wrong when _les audacieux_ is correct.)

By analogy, I would expect that the plural form of_ un autre_ would be _des autres_, but it's not. Is it because maybe _d'autres_ was an elliptical form of _d'autres_+_nom pluriel_ and over time became common usage?


----------



## Maître Capello

CocoG said:


> Why is it not _des autres_ (des=l'article indéfini) but _d'autres_ when it's a pronoun? (_Un autre_, _une autre_ → _des autres_?) Is this a special case?


No, this is not really a special case. When there is an adjective between the indefinite article and the noun, we use _de/d'_ instead of _des_. See the thread FR: de/des + adjectif + nom au pluriel. When _autres_ is said to be used as a pronoun it is in fact often an adjective with an implied noun. See also _Le Bon Usage_ (§ 741):


> N.B.: Comme _autre_ est aussi un adjectif, on ne considèrera pas automatiquement comme pronominal tout emploi où _autre_  se trouve accompagné d’un déterminant sans être suivi d’un nom, étant  donné que cette construction se présente aussi avec un adjectif  quelconque.



As for your other examples (_des stupides, des __audacieux_), note that those are not pronouns but nominalized adjectives, which is not the same.


----------

