# Dropping of Imperfect Subjunctive in Romance Languages



## Meyer Wolfsheim

Hello everyone,

Is there a trend in the Romance languages to replace the imperfect subjunctive with a present subjunctive or some other tense (or perhaps just use indicative imperfect)?  

I know in French orally the imperfect subjunctive is dead (eusse, etc.)  but is alive in Spanish and I presume Italian/Portuguese?  For speakers of those languages or experts, do you find that the use of the imperfect subjunctive construction (Spanish -iera/iese endings) is being dropped in speech or at least not used as often as it "should" be?


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## Rallino

I heard some Italians using indicative mood where they should have used subjunctive.

_Se non ti avevo vista, crederei ancora che eri in Germania._

But this is totally wrong in written language. And I don't think it's being dropped in Italian.


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## miguel89

In my dialect of Spanish it is quite common to replace the imperfect subjunctive with present subjunctive in subordinate clauses:
Le había pedido que viniera / venga
There's an active thread about this up in Solo español

Another case of dropping happens in the protasis (main clause of a conditional) said to be due to Italian influence
Si hubieras/hubieses venido > Si habrías venido, la habrías pasado bien

Both are frowned upon, the latter more than the former


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## Favara

Imperfect Subjunctive is completely alive in Catalan, I've never heard it being substituted by another tense. Western uses -era endings exclusively, while Eastern seems to only use the -és ones.


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## Outsider

The imperfect subjunctive is still very much alive in Portuguese, but people do sometimes replace it with the imperfect _indicative_. In this case, they accordingly replace the pluperfect subjunctive by the pluperfect indicative (imperfect + past participle), or, more rarely (and perhaps only in some regions of Portugal) by the present perfect (present + past participle).

A different matter is that there are certain kinds of sentences where the imperfect subjunctive and the present subjunctive may _both_ be defensible choices.


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## Istriano

In Brazilian Portuguese Imperfect Subjunctive is very alive, and some people even use it instead of Pluperfect Subjunctive:

_Se eu soubesse, não teria ido._  instead of
_Se eu tivesse sabido, não teria ido. 

_As for substitution present/imperfect subjunctive, there is a rule some grammarians invented (copying the German grammar):
when present indicative and present subjunctive have the same form, imperfect subjunctive should be used:_

Tomara que eles vão. 
Tomara que eles fossem.

http://ciberduvidas.sapo.pt/pergunta.php?id=6548

_With_ tomara que_ (I wish) and many other expressions both present and imperfect subjunctive can be used for present
wishes, but imperfect subjunctive is used for more hypothetical situations, the wish is less strong.
_Pluperfect imperfect subjunctive_ is used for hypothetical things/wishes related to the past, which cannot be changed anymore.

[*Tomara que caia* = I with it fell
*Tomara que caísse* = I wish it would/could fall.
*Tomara que tivesse caído* = I wish it had fallen]


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## ManPaisa

miguel89 said:


> In my dialect of Spanish it is quite common to replace the imperfect subjunctive with present subjunctive in subordinate clauses:
> Le había pedido que viniera / venga
> There's an active thread about this up in Solo español
> 
> Another case of dropping happens in the protasis (main clause of a conditional) said to be due to Italian influence
> Si hubieras/hubieses venido > Si habrías venido, la habrías pasado bien
> 
> Both are frowned upon, the latter more than the former



I agree.  The former is accepted these days if the event has still not occurred.  The latter is more a regional phenomenon (in both Europe and America) than an on-going development.

Otherwise, the imperfect subjunctive is alive and kicking in Spanish, *except *for the Spanish spoken by many speakers born in the US. They seem to be losing the feel for the subjunctive in all its tenses (my personal observation, at least).  Example:  _Yo quiero que Juan *viene, _instead of _venga._


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## Montesacro

Outsider said:


> The imperfect subjunctive is still very much alive in Portuguese, but people do sometimes replace it with the imperfect _indicative_. In this case, they accordingly replace the pluperfect subjunctive by the pluperfect indicative (imperfect + past participle)(...)



Exactly the same can be said for Italian.


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## Erick404

Outsider said:


> The imperfect subjunctive is still very much alive in Portuguese, but people do sometimes replace it with the imperfect _indicative_. In this case, they accordingly replace the pluperfect subjunctive by the pluperfect indicative (imperfect + past participle), or, more rarely (and perhaps only in some regions of Portugal) by the present perfect (present + past participle).
> 
> A different matter is that there are certain kinds of sentences where the imperfect subjunctive and the present subjunctive may _both_ be defensible choices.



Sorry, but it's not what I read from Portuguese people in the Internet. Not sometimes, but almost often, they replace the imperfect subjunctive with the imperfect indicative, in cases where the subjunctive is mandatory.
This doesn't happen in Brazilian Portuguese, which makes the misuse more glaring to me.


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## relativamente

In Catalán also is used the imperfect subjunctive. There are two forms like in Spanish, but while in Spanish people use both forms, in Catalan depending on the area people use preferably just one form.I say in Spànish hubiera and hubiese but in catalán I allways say haguera while in Barcelona most people say allways hagués.
The tense that is becoming old fashioned is the future subjunctive that is replaced by the present subjunctive.It is used in expresions like "suceda lo que sucediere" and other fixed expresions.


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## clevermizo

ManPaisa said:


> Otherwise, the imperfect subjunctive is alive and kicking in Spanish, *except *for the Spanish spoken by many speakers born in the US. They seem to be losing the feel for the subjunctive in all its tenses (my personal observation, at least).  Example:  _Yo quiero que Juan *viene, _instead of _venga._



That's definitely the case. I knew a lot of people growing up who would not use it or use it incorrectly. I'd probably speak that way myself if I hadn't taken Spanish formally in school.


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## Outsider

Erick404 said:


> Sorry, but it's not what I read from Portuguese people in the Internet.


Which part of my post do you disagree with, exactly?

Or are you claiming that we Portuguese _never_ use the imperfect subjunctive? I assure you that we do, frequently! (As a simple web search should confirm...)


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## Erick404

Outsider said:


> Which part of my post do you disagree with, exactly?
> 
> Or are you claiming that we Portuguese _never_ use the imperfect subjunctive? I assure you that we do, frequently! (As a simple web search should confirm...)



I'm claiming that you Portuguese hardly ever use the imperfect subjunctive 
Of course, this is only the result of my observations in forums and people talking in the internet. I can't tell exactly how often I see this mistake, but it's more than enough to sound strange to a Brazilian.
I'll try to pay more attention to Portuguese people writing in the Web!


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## Epilio

At least in Spain that tense is very alive and only in the Basque territories is sometimes substituted by the conditional mood, which occurs because of the influence of Euskara (language that doesn't have a pluperfect tense).


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## effeundici

In Italian ==>



Meyer Wolfsheim said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> _Is there a trend in the Romance languages to replace the imperfect subjunctive with a *present subjunctive*? NO_
> 
> Se tu *sia* qui
> 
> 
> _or perhaps just use *indicative imperfect*?_
> 
> Se tu *eri* qui   I use it when speaking


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