# You look like you've lost half a crown and found sixpence



## James Brandon

I am intrigued by this expression, seldom heard today and going back to pre-metric days (in terms of coinage), in the UK.

Any insight into its precise meaning, its frequency of use nowadays, etc will be appreciated.

Unless I am wrong, before decimalisation, a _crown_ was worth 5_ shillings_, i.e. 5 X 12 _pence_, or 60 pence. _Half a crown_ would have been 2 1/2 shillings, i.e. 30 pence.


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## JulianStuart

Things could have been worse!  You could have lost half a crown and found nothing - so cheer up!
Some pre-decimalization folks might still use it, but otherwise, probably dodo-land!

Your arithmetic is correct but it wouldn't sound quite the same as "You've lost 12 1/2 pence and found 21/2 pence" now would it it


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## James Brandon

Ok, that is interesting: so, it does not merely mean that "you look miserable", but there is the added idea that "you should cheer up". A variation on the idea of "it could be worse". Fair enough! 

I agree that talking about crowns and half-crowns sounds better than mere (new) pence. 

It is clear the expression is rare or very rare nowadays, but I heard it used recently; however, I do not remember in what context.


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## Fabulist

It's not a familiar expression to me—I suppose an American equivalent would be "... lost a quarter and found a nickel—but supposing before reading the full post that "half a crown" was worth more than sixpence, I just took from the saying the idea of a disappointment or loss. I'm not sure what the special look would be—it must be different from that of someone who has lost half a crown and found nothing, for a net loss of two and six instead of only 2s., or somone who has lost a guinea. I don't think there is anything inherent in the words of the saying that "you should cheer up," although there is an implication that "things could be worse" (because you might not have found the sixpence to offset partially the loss of half a crown).

This is obviously a saying from before 20th century inflation.


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## James Brandon

The saying dates back to pre-decimalisation in Britain, i.e., before 1971. This dates the expression, and there is no doubt that it is now seen as obsolete and rarely used - at any rate, this is the impression I get.

The meaning does seem to be that things are bad for the person (used in ironic mode by the other one, who is commenting on the victim's situation). I must admit I agree that it is not 100pc clear to me why there would be the idea that one should "cheer up": if you lose half a crown, finding sixpence is not going to cheer you up, is it? Six pence would be 20% of the sum you have lost (5X6 = 30 pence). 

In other words, could it be that the expression is used in sarcastic mode by the person commenting on the other's predicament? _You do look miserable - like someone who has lost half a crown and found a paltry sixpence. _In other words: _You look miserable. _The inferred message _(Cheer up!) _would just be an afterthought, insofar as it is added to any comment on anybody's misery in Britain, pretty much, along the lines of:_ It could be worse.

_See the other Thread on_ You look like you have lost a shilling and found a sixpence._


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## AItchJayGee

I think the point about the expression "You look like you have lost half a crown and found sixpence" is that, other things being equal, you would have been mildly pleased to have found a sixpence. After all, there were farthings, halfpence, pennies and threepenny bits all of lower value, that you might have found. But other things were not equal, you having lost 2/6d. So what have been quite an agreeable experience has turned sour.


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## James Brandon

Re-reading this old Thread that has been revived, almost 2 years later, I think we established that the basic meaning is: "You have lost X amount [a crown] and you have found Y amount [6 pence], and Y is a lot less than X, but at least you have found Y, and you could have found _nothing_ -- so cheer up, and it could have been worse, and you would have lost X, full stop."

 And, obviously, 6 pence would be better than a farthing!


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## wandle

In the old currency, £. s. d., half a crown (or half a dollar, as it used to be called in Scouse slang, recalling the days when there were four dollars to the pound) was two shillings and sixpence, or 30 old pence (d).
That is one eighth of a pound, and therefore equal to 12 1/2 new pence (p) in decimal currency.
Sixpence was one fifth of half a crown, and therefore equal to 2 1/2 p.


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## James Brandon

Precisely: so, if you have lost half a crown (2 shillings and 6 pence) and have found a sixpence (6 pence), you have -- really -- lost 2 shillings, but it is better than losing half a crown and finding nothing...


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## wandle

Fifty years ago, half a crown would buy a good lunch in a city centre restaurant, so it was a distinct loss.


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## sound shift

If it's regarded as a set expression I must have led a sheltered life, because I never heard this in the era of pounds, shillings and pence; and I've never heard it in the decimal era either.


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## Loob

Unlike sound shift, I've definitely heard the expression.

Though I always took it simply to mean "you look miserable": the sixpence never sounded like any sort of 'compensation'.


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## James Brandon

Loob is making an interesting point. Are we to interpret the expression as meaning: "Cheer up! It could be worse! At least you found six pence..." This was the direction the exchange of views seemed to be going. Or, are we to interpret it as meaning: "You look miserable! Like someone who has lost a great deal and, for consolation, all he has managed to get hold of is a paltry 6 pence!" In the latter case, the mention of the 6 pence is pure sarcasm. Having re-read the latest exchanges, I feel inclined to believe that Loob's interpretation is the correct one here. 

It is definitely a set expression, although obsolete and rare nowadays. But how commonly used it was "in the old days" would have to be established. And there is no denying that half a crown would have been a not-so-small amount of money...


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## xiselum

I was around when this saying was current and have used it. It means a person looks disappointed or miserable and has nothing in it to say cheer up. It does have a tinge of a derogatory connotation but never "At least you found sixpence" or "you could have found nothing" 
Losing half a crown (or two and six) was a disaster for which finding sixpence was no consolation.


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## James Brandon

OK, so it sounds like the expression is ironic at best, sarcastic at worst, but presumably could be used by a friend to another friend to tell them to cheer up against all odds (in the face of adversity), in the way that friends speak to each other in the UK, in this kind of situation, if this makes sense (and non-British people may find this mode of communication puzzling, perhaps). But the expression would, by itself, _not_ offer any consolation as such. 

I think it is useful to hear from people who are familiar with the expression and know it/have used it, as we have, here.


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## JulianStuart

Label me an optimist, but I was the one who saw the difference between "You look like someone who lost half a crown" and  "You look like someone who lost half a crown and found sixpence" as indicating the latter was more encouraging than the former.  It seems as though those who feel it means you look (irredeemably) miserable do the arithmetic and think "You look like someone who lost two shillings" when they use this expression.  Disclosure : I never used the expression myself.


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## James Brandon

I suppose the optimist Vs pessimist debate (glass half full Vs half empty) is, as ever, relevant here; having said that, all are agreed that losing 2 shillings is worse than finding 6 pence in old money, since 2 shillings > 6 pence, so I think the glass is rather emptier than it is full, if I can put it like this. I get the impression that the "miserable miserable" interpretation (as opposed to "miserable cheer up") has got the upper hand, here...


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## JulianStuart

I concede. 

However, the optimist saw this as "You hit rock bottom but have started to climb out again". It was worse and is getting better.  Very different from "You look like you just found sixpence and then lost half a crown!" Over and out


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## choppa4oz

You can find an example of "half a crown and sixpence" being used in an episode of British TV show "The Bill" <--- > aired in 1987. The context is an internal police investigation and a policeman is being interrogated. The interrogators are doing their best to destabilise him, and suggest he is nervous. There is no suggestion of cheering up. Also, the person who uses the phrase looks to be roughly 35-40 years old, speaking to a young police constable 25-ish), and presumably expects the PC to be fully aware of the phrase.

<--- > Directions to find  video removed.  Cagey, moderator.


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## JulianStuart

Having conceded that my optimistic nature interepreted this differently than many, I now wonder why the "but found sixpence" is relevant or why it is added.  If someone just looks irredeemably miserable, wouldn't you simply say, "You look like you just lost half a crown" (and yes I am old enough to recall when that was a huge sum, even if only from the eyes of a child).


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## James Brandon

"...and found sixpence" is added for the purpose of emphasis, irony and sarcasm, I believe. A bit like the good-news V bad-news jokes, or saying to someone: "I know it is a blow that you've lost your job, but, at least, you can look forward to getting up at 10 in the morning every day if you wish to, from now on."


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## JulianStuart

But one could also see it as "softening the blow" just as easily as "irony etc," right?  It's not all bad, there is (a bit of) a silver lining etc...


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## James Brandon

Given the fact the phrase starts with, "you look...", and given the fact 6 pence is only a fraction of the initial amount, I feel it probably is ironic. Then again, you could argue there is indeed the notion of, 'it could be worse' (i.e. you could have lost the full amount and found nothing at all). The underlying meaning of the remark is that the person must be feeling intense disappointment, no matter what, I would have thought.


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## Barque

I've come across this expression in a book. It stuck in my mind because I didn't know then how much half a crown was, though the context made it obvious it was more than sixpence. 

If I remember right, it was used towards someone who looked upset and irritated. It suggested to me a feeling of annoyance at losing half a crown being exacerbated by finding just sixpence. A salt-rubbed-into-the-wound feeling.


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## James Brandon

Barque: interesting, and this would be a case of 'adding insult [6 pence] to injury [the initial loss]'.


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## Keith Bradford

Loob said:


> ... I always took it simply to mean "*you look miserable*": the sixpence never sounded like any sort of 'compensation'.



I agree.


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## choppa4oz

The original question was about the precise meaning of the expression, and its frequency of use. So the 2 points I was trying to make in my previous message, based on the concrete example I'd found, were that (i) there doesn't have to be a meaning of compensation/cheering up, it can simply refer to someone feeling upset (or miserable) and (ii) if in 1987 a young adult was supposed to be aware of the expression, in a TV show that tried to be realistic about police life, then whoever wrote the dialogue probably felt that the expression was fairly current and understandable (and also understandable by most viewers)

< Sequential posts merged.  Cagey, moderator. >


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## JulianStuart

I am still puzzled as to how the expression (with the added bit about  "but found sixpnece) arose .

Would you be more miserable if your net loss was 30 pence than if your net loss was 24 pence?


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## Keith Bradford

You lose 30 pence... you are disappointed... you find another coin... your hopes are raised... drat, it's only sixpence!... you are disappointed a second time... you look glum.


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## JulianStuart

Perhaps this is a pessimist/optimist thing.  I feel less miserable after finding the sixpence than I did before.  Things were worse and now they are a bit better.


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## Keith Bradford

The fact remains, the phrase is always _to look like you've lost half a crown and found sixpence_, and the _look _is an unhappy one.


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## JulianStuart

I get the miserable look thing, I really do.  But I still don't get why the sixpence part was added

Cf.  "You look like you just found half a crown but lost sixpence."  How would that be different from "You look like you just found half a crown"???


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## PaulQ

My wife offers (without evidence) the reasonable explanation:

"It should be "You look as if you have *found sixpence* and *lost half a crown*."." This makes more sense to me as the change from mild elation to depression is there.

The saying "You look like you've lost half a crown and found sixpence." has never made sense to me.


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## JulianStuart

PaulQ said:


> My wife offers (without evidence) the reasonable explanation:
> 
> "It should be "You look as if you have *found sixpence* and *lost half a crown*."." This makes more sense to me as the change from mild elation to depression is there.
> 
> The saying "You look like you've lost half a crown and found sixpence." has never made sense to me.




Thank you  (Now I _don't_ have another think coming  )

The expression just seems to have been inverted along the way.  That would create and even more miserable look than the one from way the expression currently is rendered.


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## Barque

I think the reference to finding sixpence serves to emphasise the loss of half a crown. 

The statement "You look like you've lost half a crown" doesn't, to my ears, mean much. Can you really distinguish between the look a person might have after losing half a crown from the one he might have after losing a pound, or ten shillings?

However, the addition of the sixpence reference makes it, in my opinion, easier to picture. You've lost something, then you found something, but what you found isn't enough to make up for your loss and so you still look upset, perhaps frustrated that all you found was a paltry sixpence.


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## srk

JulianStuart said:


> Cf. "You look like you just found half a crown but lost sixpence." How would that be different from "You look like you just found half a crown"???


You ought to make the comparison with "You look like you lost sixpence but found half a crown." Simply finding half a crown would be nice, but after the disappointment of losing sixpence — all you had in the world, by the way — finding half a crown would make your day.

There is at least as much wrong in the ordering you used for comparison as in what you reject in favor of Paul's revision.


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## JulianStuart

"Wrong"?

The issue was not the order of finding and losing, as the impact of the second part on the net outcome (and the find/lose magnitudes were switched) -  i.e., why was the sixpence bit added?
"You look like you just found half a crown but lost sixpence."
"You look like you just lost half a crown but found sixpence."
What is the difference between the first with and without the gray text and is it the same as the difference in the second case?


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## srk

If the issue is not the order of finding and losing, what accounts for your approval of the inversion suggested by Paul's wife?


JulianStuart said:


> The expression just seems to have been inverted along the way. That would create and even more miserable look than the one from way the expression currently is rendered.


If net outcome is the issue, there is no difference between the original and the inverted form.


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## JulianStuart

srk said:


> If the issue is not the order of finding and losing, what accounts for your approval of the inversion suggested by Paul's wife?
> 
> If net outcome is the issue, there is no difference between the original and the inverted form.


I wasn't saying order is not important - I think inverted is the way the original makes more sense if the intended look is "miserable4.  Two questions: one is order, the other net outcome.


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## James Brandon

I think the expression is not meant literally and is not meant to be a rational assessment of the (or any) situation: it is an expression. Hence, there is (or must be) a metaphorical element, or a sub-text that is implied. Finding 6 pence is poor (or no) compensation. What matters is the initial loss (if you re-read the thread, it could buy you a good meal 'in the old days', so was not negligible...). To conclude, and on balance, I think it is quite clear 'and you've found 6 pence' is added purely for emphasis and to drive the point home, in ironic mode, i.e., 'you look miserable indeed'.

Having re-read the thread and the various comments, this is what I take away from it.

Someone mentioned the notion of a double disappointment: I think this is the correct idea, in fact. So, the 6 pence does not make things better (as a rational analysis would have you believe: 6 pence is better than nothing); it makes things worse (it adds insult to injury and can never replace the loss one has suffered).


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## JulianStuart

Well, I still don't have another think coming 

I've never heard or used this expression but I still find it hard to see why "finding sixpence" is an additional disappointment.  For me, it will remain in the category of "raining cats and dogs" and "the whole nine yards" as expressions with _potential_ explanations of origin, but nothing definitive.  But that's fine by me

(Now, I did find "You look like you lost half a crown and found a halfpenny" but even so, I still remember as a child when a halfpenny would buy a couple of blackjacks from Mrs Tibbles's sweetshop round the corner (1954-ish) so even then finding a halfpenny was not a disappointment).


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## choppa4oz

Julian, I think you have had a cold, rational, Cartesian approach to this, but what about feelings? If you're finding yourself tantalizingly close to regaining what you have lost, but you're not quite there, surely that must be frustrating. Also, both losing and finding are chance events that happen to you but you have really no control over. So you may well feel powerless over what happens in your life as a result of losing half a crown and finding sixpence -- pretty unbearable for most of us control freaks.


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## JulianStuart

I lose the 1/2 crown. I _feel_ miserable.
I _feel a bit_ better (less miserable) after finding the sixpence.  If I found a shilling instead of a sixepence, I'd _feel_ even better (even less miserable)

If I don't find the sixpence, that's when I _feel_ the most miserable.


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## natkretep

I have read this expression before and it has always been do with how glum someone looked. (There is some variation: 'sixpence' could be 'tanner'.)

Why the bit about finding 6d? I thought it was just some kind of embellishment and we particularly like binomial expressions in speech (_pots and pans, high and dry, _etc) and the second bit allows for that sort of echoing extension that is pleasing to the ear.

I agree with others about not worrying too much about the semantics of the expression, JS!


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## JulianStuart

What, me worry?

Idiom

Linguistics: an expression or phrase that does not follow regular rules of grammar, _or one whose meaning cannot be predicted from the meaning of its individual parts:_The expression kick the bucket, _meaning "to die,'' is an idiom in English._


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## velisarius

I agree with nat about it being an "embellishment" . If you tell someone "You look as though you've lost half a crown" it may sound as though you are simply reproaching them for looking gloomy. It might even sound as though you think they are unduly attached to money.

If you add "and found sixpence", you are clearly just making a bit of a joke out of it, to bring a reluctant smile to their lips.


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