# Pronunciation of Amsterdam



## българин

Is Amsterdam pronounced like
Amst-UH-dam 
or
Amst-EH-dam


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## sarcie

Anytime I've heard it pronounced (mostly by Gelderlanders), it's been more like the former (Amst-UH-dam), but with a definite R sound in there (Amst-UHr-dam).


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## nhv1121

I am Dutch and have lived in Amsterdam. The closest an English speaking person could pronounce Amsterdam would be like UMstir* DUM, *with the r only lightly pronounced. The same sing song like RO bin *HOOD *or AB so *LUTE*


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## Lugubert

nhv1121 said:


> I am Dutch and have lived in Amsterdam. The closest an English speaking person could pronounce Amsterdam would be like UMstir* DUM, *with the r only lightly pronounced. The same sing song like RO bin *HOOD *or AB so *LUTE*


 
"UMstir* DUM*" reveals a profound knowledge of English orthography vs. pronunciation! I'd like to stress that from the months I lived in A'dam, I heard the main stress to be on the last syllable.


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## Joannes

Yes, the (main) stress is on the last syllable.

The exact pronunciation of the /r/ depends on many factors. 

This website gives good standard pronunciations for *Amsterdam* in Dutch and Belgian Dutch. (I've seen this tool around in the forums, so I guess it's allowed to link to it. If not, I'm sure I'll hear about it.)


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## българин

So, according to that website, in Belgian Dutch, the "er" would be pronounced with the "uh" with the tongue rolled. 
And the standard Dutch would be with the "eh" with the nasal "r"?


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## Setwale_Charm

Isn`t it easier to get a sound file somewhere? I am personally a bit of a sceptic when it comes to written portrayal of pronuciation.


Does the Belgian Dutch pronounce it differently?


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## Frank06

Hi,


българин said:


> So, according to that website, in Belgian Dutch, the "er" would be pronounced with the "uh" with the tongue rolled.
> And the standard Dutch would be with the "eh" with the nasal "r"?


We have two problems here. But before dealing with those, I wanted to point out that what you hear on this website are (1) standard Dutch as spoken in Flanders, and (2) standard Dutch as spoken in the Netherlands. One language, two standard variants. Sorry, I can't leave it .

The first problem concerns /r/. What */r/ after a vowel* is concerned, there are two standard variants in both Flanders and the Netherlands, and one variant which has recently spread so widely (mainly in the Netherlands), that it is about to become a de facto standard variant.

We have:
(1) /r/ with the tip of the tongue (*tongpunt-r*)
(Still strong in Flanders, also heard in the Netherlands, but less)
(2) uvular /r/ (simply put: a French /R/ (*huig-r*)
(mainly in the Netherlands, but incredibly quickly spreading in Flanders)
(3) the so-called Gooise /r/ (*Gooise r*)
(mainly - exclusively? - in the Netherlands and exclusively *after* a vowel!!!)

I gave you the names in Dutch, so you can find them back more easily on this page (click on "lees voor" on the right). 

Apart from /r/, some people who are considered to be speakers of standard Dutch (Fl./tN) have the tendency to pronounce words the way they are written. As you surely know, the letter <e> can represent three sounds, two of which are relevant for this story: short /e/ and shwa /@/. Strictly speaking, the use of a short /e/ is 'wrong' (the <e> in Amst*e*l and Amst*e*rdam is supposed to be a shwa) , but /e/ is often heard any which way.

Conclusion: mathematics (_and_ reality) give us 6 variants, though the 3 variants with shwa are widely considered to be 'more' standard than the ones with /e/. 

I think you are free to choose one . 

My advise is to keep it simple: I never had a student from Bulgaria who had problems with /r/. I wouldn't bother too much and stick to the Bulgarian /r/ . 

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Joannes

Very accurately described by Frank!

Let me just add that the pronunciation of the Gooise /r/ is alveolar but retroflex. And indeed it occurs only after a vowel, but not when another vowel follows (i.e. intervocalic).



Setwale_Charm said:


> Does the Belgian Dutch pronounce it differently?


 
Typically, only the /r/, although it will still depend on many factors. And nit-picking you could also say the Dutch tend to pronounce the /s/ in *Amsterdam* slightly more to the back, towards /š/ (Cyrillic <ш> if I'm not mistaken). But you can just forget about that.


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## nhv1121

българин said:


> So, according to that website, in Belgian Dutch, the "er" would be pronounced with the "uh" with the tongue rolled.
> And the standard Dutch would be with the "eh" with the nasal "r"?


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## nhv1121

First I don't know what you mean with eh and uh, because the "e" in Amsterdam is always pronounced the same way, like the English "her" or "stir". I don't know about the Belgians, I believe they have more often than the Dutch the "French r", coming from the throat. I like many Dutch people also speak with that "French r", it is called "brouwen". When I pronounce Amsterdam I cut the French r short. Many Dutch people also roll the r like the Spanish and Italians, with the tongue. The Spanish make a definite difference between a strong rolling "r"  used at the beginning of a word beginning with "r", like "rojo" (red) and when spelled "rr" in the middle of a word, like perro (dog) and a softly rolling "r", like in the word "pero" (but), which is similar to the "r" many Dutch use when pronouncing Amsterdam. 
An "r" resembling a soft English "r" at the end of a word like "stir" is also used by some Dutch at the end of a syllable. So within The Netherlands you have at least three different ways to pronounce the r in Amsterdam, and nobody will tell you that you mispronounce it as long as you don't emphasize it. Does this help you? Regards!


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## Joannes

nhv1121 said:


> I don't know about the Belgians, I believe they have more often than the Dutch the "French r", coming from the throat. I like many Dutch people also speak with that "French r", it is called "brouwen".


 
Well, we don't, really. As Frank said, huig-/r/ is spreading rapidly in Flanders, but I would say tongpunt-/r/ is still quite dominant. (There are also regional differences.)
(I, personally, have a huig-/r/ (souvenir from my childhood in Brussels), but I'm an exception with it in Antwerp.)

I was always taught tongpunt-/r/ was very rare in the Netherlands. I suppose you must be -- just like myself -- kind of a rarity. 

българин, as you see there is much diversity in the Dutch language area. Go for your own /r/, nobody will have any remarks to make! 

PS: Really, nhv1121, "brouwen"? Never heard it used like that before.


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## nhv1121

PS: Really, nhv1121, "brouwen"? Never heard it used like that before.[/quote]

Really, Joannes, check your Dikke van Dale, "brouwen II (...) de letter r met zwakke rateling of in een keelklank overgaand uitspreken (....) ook wel voor: de huig-r spreken"  grrrrroetjes Ellen


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## българин

Wow, Frank certainly described the whole situation. Thanks a lot. However, this leads me to another question...I know that I can say my usual "r" (tongpunkt) but that would not be a challenge for me. I want a challenge, hehe. And plus, if you guys say that it is disappearing...

But it drives me crazy because I cannot get the *Gooise r *correct. I can do the English "r" just fine, but there is a slight difference between the two...it's driving me insane. Joannes said *"that the pronunciation of the Gooise /r/ is alveolar but retroflex." *Can you explain that in simpler terms....I think this may be the difference I'm looking for, but don't quite understand the terminology. Can you give an example also...?


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## Lugubert

I'd guess from the description that the Gooise _r_ is like in USAmerican _her_. I have heard it, with perhaps a tiny bit more tongue curl, for example in Dutch words like _maar_.


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## Joannes

българин said:


> Joannes said *"that the pronunciation of the Gooise /r/ is alveolar but retroflex."*


 
Yes, that wasn't really comprehensible, was it? Frank forgot to tell how that /r/ was pronounced and I thought I might, but I made it easy for me (description in two words) but hard for you (two very technical ones). Sorry about that.

It means the Gooise /r/ is pronounced at the same place as a tongpunt-/r/ but with the tip of your tongue curled backwards. So it's the side of the tongue without taste buds that touches (or comes close to touch) the alveolar ridge (= the part of the palatum you touch with a tongpunt-/r/).

Like Lugubert said, it's like an American /r/ but with a curled tongue. (Although then you wouldn't touch the palatum, which I think with the Gooise /r/ you normally would. (When I imitate it, I don't touch the palatum, but I'm not very good at any tapping/flapping /r/'s... ))

I'm afraid I can't give any comprehensible examples that come closer to it than an American /r/, (which is pretty close when you ask me).

Hope this helps. Good luck trying!  When you get there, remember that you need to keep its distribution into account, which depends on phonetic context, regional, sociolinguistic, and personal factors.

PS: Don't forget to spend some time on Dutch <h>, <g> and the vowels. It will be challenging too.


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