# Bible and Politics



## Everness

When it comes to the neverending conflicts in the Middle East, I put forward this two-pronged thesis. 1) Political problems in that area have deep religious roots. 2) Sacred books have played a significant role in creating and sustaining the problems.  

I invite you to check this link. http://www.cyberbreezes.com/jews-arabs.htm

It represents the way millions of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists in the United States and across the world read and interpret Genesis 16. I believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today has its roots in the Isaac-Ishmael division. This story permeates many Westerners' stand on Middle Eastern politics and makes us take sides.


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## cuchuflete

Hi Everness,
Good to see you back.  We haven't had a good, provocative political topic in a while, and I was starting to yawn.

I'll read the linked material before saying much. However, I ask you to consider that tribalism, including supposedly religious tribes, may have a role to play.

and now, stepping into the armoire in search of the ill-fitting moderator costume....

If any forero uses this topic as an excuse to either promulgate or or militate for *any *religion, their posts will be expurgated, extirpated, and sprinkled with magic powder such that they will become invisibible.  The same may occur with the offending forero.  
We have recently had an infestation of posters who share an IP address, and who have taken any and every thread topic as a pretext to expound their religious beliefs.  That is not the purpose of these forums.  

Evenerness has stated a very clear proposition.  Please do discuss it, with all the facts and opinions you may have. Please re-read the topic post before adding your thoughts, and if you have remarks to offer on a different topic, offer them elsewhere.

End of Moderator rant.

Thanks,
Cuchuflete


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## Brioche

In my very humble opinion, religion is nearly always a cover, and not a cause, of political conflict.

Henry VIII of England would not have fiddled with religion if his first wife had produced a male heir - a completely political matter.

Most people declare that God is on their side. They may call it "manifest destiny" or "historical inevitability", but it amounts to the same thing.

The Bible can be made to say anything. 

Christian, "bible-believing" religions cannot agree on the nature of God, or the nature of Jesus. They do not agree on who is or isn't, or who can or cannot, be "saved". They don't even agree on what it means to be "saved". They don't agree on what happens to those who are not "saved".

The only point of agreement is that the ordinary folk should give the clergy lots of money.


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## cuchuflete

He's baaaaack..  I read a lot of what is on that site.  
Scary stuff, if people read it literally and act accordingly.
One of the writers invokes the name of Chuck Colson as an authoritative or at least inspirational figure to the movement that runs the site.

Chuck Colson. Familiar name....In 1974, Colson entered a plea of guilty to Watergate-related charges; although not implicated in the Watergate burglary, he voluntarily pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice in the Daniel Ellsberg Case.

For those too young to remember, the U.S. once had a president named Nixon, who resigned from office to avoid impeachment, and possibly jail. Chuck Colson was known as Nixon's "hatchet-man". 

Back to your proposition...Point #1.  Are the roots essentially of and about religion, or is it perhaps more a matter of tribalism and ancient disputes about ownership and control of land, which once was directly correlated with wealth and power?

Once we reach an agreement or disagreement on that point, we can proceed.

For Point #2, see the remarks above about point #1. However, whether the conflict and its roots are fundamentally tribal or religious, or both, it's clear to me that various factions are accustomed to using religious writings to justify their actions and objectives. Whether this is sincere or cynical doesn't matter. It has happened. 

To your working hypothesis...


> I believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today has its roots in the Isaac-Ishmael division. This story permeates many Westerners' stand on Middle Eastern politics and makes us take sides.


You may count me out on this one. I don't accept the so-called division, and my views on the conflict are based on the assumption that it's primarily rooted in early to mid-twentieth century cynical political decisions by the so-called Great Powers of western Europe, and that it has been fueled by tribalism, using religion as a propaganda tool. 

Next please....


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## mjscott

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> He's baaaaack..
> You may count me out on this one. I don't accept the so-called division, and my views on the conflict are based on the assumption that it's primarily rooted in early to mid-twentieth century cynical political decisions by the so-called Great Powers of western Europe, and that it has been fueled by tribalism, using religion as a propaganda tool.
> 
> Next please....


 
OK, Xuchu-- "You got some 'splainin' to do!"
Without trying to get you into it, for those old enough to know what you're talking about, you _could be_ talking about political decisions by Nazis, or in repatriating European Jews back into the Middle East into a re-created country called Israel, or any number of things....

I have asked Everness's question in my present-day setting among people on both sides of the issue. It's hard to say between politics and religion which is the cart and which is the horse--but both are a part of society's culture. As it stands, if parents are passionately involved (and they usually are when it comes to politics and/or religion) it will be carried by both in the culture of their children--re-scratching a sore that is supposed to fester until Armageddon--as seen by some factions of the argument.


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## annettehola

To make war in the name of any god whatsoever is to kill the idea of god. 

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict today does not have its roots in the Isaac-Ishmael division. It has its roots in money, for all war everywhere today seems to have stopped being _honest_ war, and by honest war I mean: To correct an injustice commited. I am currently reading a book on Nordic mythology. It's also about the more concrete history of Scandinavia. In this book ("Orm og Tyr" by the great Martin A. Hansen), the vikings made war when they had been done ill. Sometimes they also did it because they were mean. But basically as a response to an injustice they felt they had been subjected to. This was feeding the aggressor with his own medicine.
In fact, I find it good. Because I find in it an almost sacred understanding of balance in life. I cannot explain it better. Besides, it was also almost always one individual facing another, one man against another man. Fair enough. 
But the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today is not a fair one. That's exactly why they need the Bible. They need a written proof they can point to to justify what they do. 
That's dishonest.
Annette


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## Quebar

estoy de acuerdo, el problema aqui biene desde el tiempo en que abraham tuvo dos hijos uno llamado ismael y el otro llamado isaac, del mayor, viene todo el pueblo arabe, Dios le dijo a abraham que de los lomos de ismael saldran 12 principes los cuales representan los`pueblos arabes, de el menor isaac viene todo el pueblo hebreo, la tierra de la disputa es de israel o por lo menos asi lo muestran los escritos historicos redactados en la biblia, ismael quizo quitarle la primogenitura a isaac y asi es hasta el dia de hoy, el quiere quitar la tirra que por derecho historico le pertenece a israel, aqui se ve entrelazado muchas cosas, por ejemplo el pueblo musulman, tiene la mezquita en donde quedaba el antiguo templo de salomon, se dice que esa mezquita sera quitada de alli y sera construido el templo de salomon de nuevo, estos dos paises tienen conflictos no ahora si no desde hace mucho tiempo, para una mayor comprobacion de esto pueden leer en genesis las delimitaciones geograficas que Dios le brinda a abraham para que de este salga la nacion llamada israel, este es un tema de magnitudes mas biblicas que politicas, sin embargo hay profecias que dicen que un hombre pondra la paz entre estas dos naciones, pero que este hombre es un anticristo, que profeza ser Dios y pide a las naciones que le adoren, bueno aqui toque un poco la otra parte de este problema de soberania territorial que afrontan estas dos naciones. aqui aumente un poco la base del topico para asi poder conversar o exponer puntos mas amplios y mas especificos.

gracias.


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## ampurdan

Hay que recordar que el pesonaje de Ismael no era musulmán?


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## cuchuflete

mjscott said:
			
		

> OK, Xuchu-- "You got some 'splainin' to do!"
> Without trying to get you into it, for those old enough to know what you're talking about, you _could be_ talking about political decisions by Nazis, or in repatriating European Jews back into the Middle East into a re-created country called Israel, or any number of things....


I won't go wildly off topic....just look up the Balfour Declaration, and, more importantly, the history behind it. Religion is just
an excuse used by many parties --there are more than just two--to the conflict to keep it going.

How many governments of how many countries have used this conflict to divert attention away from "troubles" at home?

As to literal interpretations of so-called holy scriptures...
Put a dozen or a thousand interpreters in a small room, and let them fight over who has the hammerlock on 'truth'. Then spray strong disinfectant on the corpses.




			
				everness said:
			
		

> 2) Sacred books have played a significant role in creating and sustaining the problems.



No!  Sacred books have been ill-used to sustain the problems.


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## Quebar

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Hay que recordar que el pesonaje de Ismael no era musulmán?



ismael no era musulman, pero gran parte de su decendencia si lo es debido a que el decidio servir o creer en otros dioses, distintos al Dios hebreo, pero bueno todo esto tiene que ver con este conflicto sociopolitico que estan viviendo estas dos naciones, les digo otro punto de la historia:
abraham no podia tener hijos debido a que su esposa era esteril, y ademas era de edad avanzada se dice que cuando abraham dejo embarazada a sara su esposa eran mas o menos de 90 años de edad, este fue un milagro citado en la biblia, a esta edad su esposa sara quedo embarazada y dio a luz a isaac, esto se dio porque Dios unos años atras le prometio darle un hijo del cual saldria una nacion y reyes y principes, el al ver que esto no se daba y que el tiempo pasaba escogio a una criada egipcia de su esposa sara para llegarse a ella y asi cumplir la promesa de decendencia que Dios le habia prometido, la criada se llamaba agar la egipcia, de esta relacion se dio a luz ismael el cual era fuerte y cazador, esto no era lo que abraham tenia que hacer, el tenia que esperar que la promesa de Dios de un hijo con Sara se cumpliera, sin embargo el se desespero y se allego a Agar, tanto ismael hijo de agar e isaac hijo de Sara la esposa de abraham, crecieron al ser ismael mayor e isaac menor peleaban mucho tanto que siempre ismael molestaba a isaac y le robaba sus cosas y lo maltrataba, fijense que esto viene desde hace siglos y siglos atras, por esta razon abraham destierra a agar y ismael de su tierra calro esta por orden de Dios, es aqui en donde Dios le dice abraham que no se preocupe que de los lomos de ismael, naceran 12 principes y sera una nacion grande y poderosa, esta es parte de la historia, todo esto sirve de precedente para entender con mayor claridad el conflicto que estan atravesando estas dos naciones.

gracias por leer con atencion, disculpenme si es muy largo el post pero considere necesario para el enriquecimiento del foro aclarar esta historia.

por otro lado la politica de los dos paises es completamente cerrada y creo que los dos saben con claridad que esa tierra le pertenece a Israel, la participacion de los estados unidos a mi concepto es buena ya que puede regular un poco el conflicto armado, hay que recordar que el poder economico de los estados unidos lo tienen los judios, todo esto hace que estados unidos haga parte de este conflicto.

gracias por su atencion


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Back to your proposition...Point #1.  Are the roots essentially of and about religion, or is it perhaps more a matter of tribalism and ancient disputes about ownership and control of land, which once was directly correlated with wealth and power?
> 
> Once we reach an agreement or disagreement on that point, we can proceed.



Genesis 12:1-3:

The Lord said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you."

"I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Let me put it bluntly. It all boils down, as you argue, to ownership and control of land. However, my point is that religion is a powerful means to that end. They go hand in hand. 

You need land. You come up with a story involving God giving you rights over a particular land. People buy into the story. Sooner or later you'll get the land you wanted or you'll have the justification and motivation to fight for that land.  This is what Genesis is all about. Let's not forget that Israel wasn't a religion like modern Catholicism or Protestantism but a people that needed a place to call home just like any other nation. Actually this theory -- religion as a means toward owning and controlling land-- explains the brutality of the God of the OT in dealing with the Canaanites. 

It all boils down to writing stories involving God --who of course is on your side-- and having people buy into them.


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> No!  Sacred books have been ill-used to sustain the problems.



Wrong! Just reread the entire book of Genesis. I thank Quebar for telling some of the stories in Spanish. You don't need to ill-use Genesis to sustain the current problems. Reading it is just enough. It's a biased story. Just pay attention, for instance, to the characterization of Ishmael and how some people extend these traits to all Arabs. 

Genesis 16:11-12:

The angel of the Lord also said to her:  "You are now with child and you will have a son.  You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery.  He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Listen to this guy commenting on this text:

_¡Los que se preguntan por qué los árabes son tan guerreros y belicosos. Ahí tienen la respuesta! Dios sabía lo que Mahoma recibiría alegadamente "inspiración divina" y que daría como resultado el Corán. En estos momentos históricos esta profecía se está cumpliendo más que nunca. _

http://antesdelfin.com/ismaelypalestinos.html


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## ampurdan

Gracias por tus aclaraciones, Everness, gracias a esta bíblica revelación divina en pleno siglo XXI, me queda perfectamente claro quien ha sido el bueno y quien ha sido el malo al que hay que expulsar de la tierra prometida a los buenos...

¡Qué mala idea tuvo Mahoma al hacer de Ismael un profeta y la casi-víctima del Sacrificio de Abraham!


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## Quebar

se dice que la tierra que estan disputando los israelitas y los palestinos es el popular jardin del eden donde vivio adan y eva, esta tierra es demasiado fertil para sembrar y recoger cosechas abuendantes, aqui podemos ver que el conflicto va mas alla de problemas politicos, aqui los paises quieren tener la tierra mas fertil del mundo.
se dice que la paz entre estas dos naciones sera un movimiento apocaliptico que desatara un periodo fuerte llamado la gran tribulacion, pero antes que esta etapa comience saldra un hombre que afirmara la paz entre estos dos paises y el ordenara que se le adore a el antes que a jesucristo, el que esta persona logre la paz desatara admiracion y lo que buscara esa persona es que todo el mundo lo siga y lo admire como un dios, me impresiona este tema ya que aparentemente solamente es un problema politico pero encierra tambien dogmas de fe, y en estos paises no se puede despegar dos cosas la fe y la historia, analizando estos dos puntos se notara con mas claridad el problema.

gracias por su atencion y sugerencias.


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## Everness

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Gracias por tus aclaraciones, Everness, gracias a esta bíblica revelación divina en pleno siglo XXI, me queda perfectamente claro quien ha sido el bueno y quien ha sido el malo al que hay que expulsar de la tierra prometida a los buenos...
> 
> ¡Qué mala idea tuvo Mahoma al hacer de Ismael un profeta y la casi-víctima del Sacrificio de Abraham!



Oh, c'mon... don't sell yourself short. As I always say, my comments are as insightful or intelligent as the person who reads them. 

Going back to our topic, it's irrelevant to define who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in this movie. By the way, I'm still wondering why charges of antisemitism haven't yet been brought up. Again, I'm not interested in the actors at all. I'm interested in the screenplay and the screenplayer, and in the way viewers put on hold their critical thinking when it comes to sacred books (e.g.: Bible and Q'ran) allowing the script to inform their political and ideological stands. That's all...


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## cuchuflete

Quebar said:
			
		

> se dice que ....


 Y me pregunto, ¿Quién dice tantas pendejadas?

Claro que hay gente que dicen cosas estrafalarias, pero el problema no es que se diga tales cosas, sino que haya gente que las acepte como si fueran verdaderas.



> esta tierra es demasiado fertil para sembrar y recoger cosechas abuendantes


 Remove the artificial irrigation and abundant use of chemical fertilizers, and stand in awe at how little these lands produce.   Objective facts and fairy tales make strange bedfellows.


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## Everness

Quebar said:
			
		

> se dice que la paz entre estas dos naciones sera un movimiento apocaliptico que desatara un periodo fuerte llamado la gran tribulacion, pero antes que esta etapa comience saldra un hombre que afirmara la paz entre estos dos paises y el ordenara que se le adore a el antes que a jesucristo, el que esta persona logre la paz desatara admiracion y lo que buscara esa persona es que todo el mundo lo siga y lo admire como un dios, me impresiona este tema ya que aparentemente solamente es un problema politico pero encierra tambien dogmas de fe, y en estos paises no se puede despegar dos cosas la fe y la historia, analizando estos dos puntos se notara con mas claridad el problema.
> 
> gracias por su atencion y sugerencias.



I'm sure that you wrote this and your other posts without checking your Bible. I'm impressed. My hunch is that you are either Evangelical or fundamentalist. Why? Only Evangelicals and fundamentalists care about the doctrines of premillennialism, amillennialism, and postmillennialism. Wait! One more guess: you subscribe to premillennialism. Right? 

I want you to read this article and tell me what you think. It's not off topic because it explains why the Bible Belt wants the US to continue supporting the State of Israel. Our topic is how religion informs politics. The final sentence might capture your attention and prompt you to read the whole article:"The presence of Israel validates the hope of fundamentalists that Christians, and Christians alone, will get out of life alive." 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html


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## Quebar

gracias everness por tu aporte y critica a mi opinion.
la verdad es que todo lo que descrito tiene una fundamentacion biblica bien clara, si lees el apocalipsis te daras cuenta de muchos detalles, que aqui no puedo nombrar porque estaria off-topic, lo que hice con mi comentario es darle una perspectiva mucho mas amplio, la religion o las doctrinas de la fe siempre tienen incidencia en las politicas de muchos paises, y la fe y la historia en estos paises es demasiado fuerte y concreta, 
:"The presence of Israel validates the hope of fundamentalists that Christians, and Christians alone, will get out of life alive." esta afirmacion la comparto pero no la impongo ya que le debeo respeto a los demas exponentes sin embargo no puedo negar que soy evangelico y creo en cristo como salvador del mundo.

por otra parte creo que israel, debe tomar una decision de buscar mantenerse firme y no permitir que su soberania territorial se ha afectada por los palestinos ellos saben que esa tierra es de ellos y deben estar firmes hasta el final, el problema es que israel siempre ha compartido y le han quitado tierras, la razon es que sus tierras son demasiado fertiles, ademas son los judios los que rigen el 50% de la economia de los estados unidos, esta es la raopzn por la cual estados unidos aporta en ese conflicto.

gracias everness por tu sugerencia, en mi trabajo la unica pagina web a la que tengo acceso es wordreference.com, ya que aqui nois cerraron el acceso a otras paginas, lo siento por eso no puedo leer este articulo.


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## cuchuflete

Quebar said:
			
		

> la razon es que sus tierras son demasiado fertiles, ademas son los judios los que rigen el 50% de la economia de los estados unidos,



To call such statements fairy tales would be to dignify them far beyond what they merit.   
Either provide proof of such claims, or be prepared to be laughed at or ignored.  

I don't doubt the sincerity with which such statements are offered; nonetheles they are ludicrous.


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## Everness

Quebar said:
			
		

> por otra parte creo que israel, debe tomar una decision de buscar mantenerse firme y no permitir que su soberania territorial se ha afectada por los palestinos ellos saben que esa tierra es de ellos y deben estar firmes hasta el final, el problema es que israel siempre ha compartido y le han quitado tierras, la razon es que sus tierras son demasiado fertiles, ademas son los judios los que rigen el 50% de la economia de los estados unidos, esta es la raopzn por la cual estados unidos aporta en ese conflicto.



I'm sorry that you can't access other webpages. I don't have any problems with Dispensationalism. However, I do have problems with Christian Zionism. For those who aren't familiar with both movements --and who also have full access to the internet!--, I invite you to check the following article that defines these movements. You'll also find out how influential Christian Zionists are in the US. Bush knows that Evangelicals are a core constituency.  The article says that evangelicals are told that they hold a spiritual obligation to "bless Israel."  

My point? Christian faith --or any type of faith-- and politics must not be wed in Israel --or in any other country. Otherwise, the name of God or the cause of political justice will suffer enormously. Argue your case but leave the word of God out. (¡Ay, qué ingenuo que soy!)

_Today a movement called Christian Zionism has harnessed these disparate parts.  Its advocates have shed much of Dispensationalism's theological program but have kept its eschatology.  Christian Zionism weds religion with politics and interprets biblical faithfulness in terms of fidelity to Israel's future.  _

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/159


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## Quebar

gracias cuchuflete por su opinion sincera acerca de mi post:
1)cuchuflete: esto lo puedes comprobar mirando y verificando por medio de la web el departamento de agricultura o le ministerio de agricultura. israel, fijate que fue citiada durante toda su historia, por los siguientes paises o reinos:
babilonia,medos,persas,griegos,caldeos,filisteos,romanos,ingleses,musulmanes,alemanes entre otros, cual era el motivo el popular oro del templo de salomon, el arca del pacto y la pocesion de las tierras de israel las cuales si investigas son sumamente fertiles y ricas en oro, este planteamiento es biblico ya que Dios le dice a moises que enviara a su pueblo a una tierra donde fluye leche y miel esto significaba prosperidad y fertilidad, esta es la razon por la cual palestina pelea a muerte esta tierra.
nuchas empresas son pertenecen a los judios y ellos muven y desarrollan de manera progresisita la economia de estados unidos de america, esto hace que U.S.A los apoye, bueno esta es la razon logica que yo conozco si conoces otra me gustaria informarme mejor, gracias cuchuflete por tus correcciones y aportes.

2) para responder de manera mas acertada a me gustaria que por favor si no es molestia tradujeras al español lo que hablaste del movimiento cristiano zionismo.
segun lo que he entendido este movimeinto une la politica con la religion, me gustaria saber mas, yo pienso de manera muy personal que la politica no puede o es muy dificil desligarla de este problema ya que son paises sumamente devotos a su fe pues los palestinos a ala y los cristianos a el Padre, Al hijo, y al Espiritu Santo, si comparto la afirmacion de que nosotros los cristianos evangelicos debemos amar a israel y estamos llamados a orar por jerusalem para asi ser prosperados.

esta conversacion o estos post me tienen muy contento ya que aprendo mucho de otras personas o por lo menos conozco conceptos nuevos acerca de temas teologicos y de fe que me gusta compartir.

gracias


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## Everness

Quebar said:
			
		

> 2) para responder de manera mas acertada a me gustaria que por favor si no es molestia tradujeras al español lo que hablaste del movimiento cristiano zionismo.



I was the one who made reference to Christian Zionism. I found a great article in Spanish on this topic. It's published by the Mennonites in Spain. It's a bit --well, more than a bit-- critical of this movement but it also gives you solid background information. By the way, Mennonites have one of the most refreshing theologies currently available. They are knowledgeable, humble and extremely articulate when it comes to discussing politics from a Christian perspective. 

Look for Nº 39 - Octubre de 2005

http://www.menonitas.org/Mensajero.htm#2005

If you can't read this article, I can email it you.


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## cuchuflete

Gracias Quebar,

Puesto que 





> este planteamiento es biblico ya que Dios le dice a moises que enviara a su pueblo a una tierra donde fluye leche y miel esto significaba prosperidad y fertilidad


 ¿Qué le voy a decir? Si Ud. cita su mismo Dios como fuente de informaciones, y luego nos ofrece una interpretación del significado de las mismas palabra de su Dios...no puedo más que aceptar que es una perspectiva.

Creo que habrá otras perspectivas bien distintas, según el concepto que uno tenga de 'Dios'.  




> las tierras de israel las cuales si investigas son sumamente fertiles y ricas en oro


He investigado un poco, y no he podido encontrar ninguna empresa minera que produce oro en Israel.



> Israel - Gold Production  *0*  companies found matching.


http://www.investcom.com/cgi-bin/nameindustry/miningco.cgi?ID=1&string=Israel+-+Gold+Production&exact=&SUB=yes


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## Quebar

el oro que tienen historicamente los israelitas salomon lo mando a traer de otroas tierras para la construccion del templo para Dios, sin embargo en los rios dentro de israel se encuentra oro, incluso genesis registra el rio pison como un rio el cual tenia abuendancia de oro, si es discutible el que israel sea rica en oro o no, pero de algo puede estar seguro es una tierra demasiado fertil y prospera, los palestinos lo saben , ellos saben lo que ganarian si lograran arrebatar esas tierras de las manos de los israelitas.

lo que Dios quizo decir con tierra donde fluye leche y miel, es que seria una tierra con grandes niveles de produccion y de fertilidad, lo que significaria que Dios los habia equipado de una tierra prospera para que ellos no tuvieran que depender de potras naciones, cuchuflete si puedes investiga acerca del desarrollo agricola de israel y te daras cuenta que sus tierras son unicas.

debe citar la biblia ya que es en este libro en donde explican todo los tiempos de el pueblo de israel, ya sea su pàsado, presente y futuro, este ha sido un pueblo de mucha historia pero que tambien ha sufrido mucho porque han sido obstinados y tercos en muchas decisiones  que ha tomado.

el problema aqui en mi concepto es un problema de soberania territorial, del cual israel no debe ceder porque ellos saben que por derecho p`ropio esas tierras son de ellos.

perdonenme por no poner citaciones exactas pero como dije nada mas tengo acceso a esta pagina web, cuchuflete me gustaria que me aclararas si puedo poner citas biblicas que enriquezcan este thread.

gracias cuchuflete por tus aportes.


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## cuchuflete

Quebar,
You are certainly welcome to cite what you believe to be the word of God, so long as it is pertinent to the question posed in the first post.   Please understand that there are alternate "sacred" tomes which also claim to be the word of someone else's God, and then people interpret all of these. The result,
from my personal viewpoint, is not fact, but opinion which may or may not be "true" in a rational sense.

I believe this discourse is proving a portion of Everness's hypothesis.

I wonder what the Q'ran has to say about all of this. I believe that book is also "the word of God". I have no reason to accept one holy book as being more accurate than another. We should see what L. Ron Hubbard has to say on the subject.

Perhaps a Buddhist viewpoint would be useful. It might suggest that all parties to the conflict 'chill out'. I prefer that theological solution to all the blood and guts forecast by some other 'sacred' teachings.


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## nycphotography

Everness said:
			
		

> I want you to read this article and tell me what you think. It's not off topic because it *PRESUMES TO EXPLAIN* explains why the Bible Belt wants the US to continue supporting the State of Israel. Our topic is how religion informs politics. The final sentence might capture your attention and prompt you to read the whole article:"The presence of Israel validates the hope of fundamentalists that Christians, and Christians alone, will get out of life alive."
> 
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html


 
Leave it to a scholar and a cleric to write 10 pages to "explain" something in their own particular flavor of delusion, that really boils down to 3 words:  *Money.  Oil.  Power.*

Ok, really only 2 words, *Money and Power.*  (Because Oil is the salt and gold [=money] of the moment).


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## cuchuflete

everness said:
			
		

> You need land. You come up with a story involving God giving you rights over a particular land. People buy into the story.



Need, or want, or both?  

Next question:  If Jack needs land, does that mean Jill can't share it?  Seems that when the god-botherers of all persuasions get into the act, this is their conclusion.  It's rot!

People who make policy and fight wars based on *stories* which purport to be literal reality are not living in a dream world. They are creating a nightmare world.  Sadly, you are correct....people do 'buy into the story', and then act according to the script.


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## Everness

nycphotography said:
			
		

> Leave it to a scholar and a cleric to write 10 pages to "explain" something in their own particular flavor of delusion, that *MIGHT *really boils down to 3 words:  *Money.  Oil.  Power.*
> 
> Ok, _*MAYBE*_ really only 2 words, *Money and Power.*  (Because Oil is the salt and gold [=money] of the moment).




Es una verdad absoluta que la verdad es relativa  -André Maurois


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> People who make policy and fight wars based on *stories* which purport to be literal reality are not living in a dream world. They are creating a nightmare world.  Sadly, you are correct....people do 'buy into the story', and then act according to the script.



The SOBs who killed almost 3,000 people on 9/11 allegedly found inspiration in a sacred book. PC taught us to say that sacred books per se aren't the problem. I think it's BS. It's true that you can make them say whatever you want. But on the other hand, there are a lot of passages in our sacred books that only irresponsible and unethical religious leaders could put a positive spin on and that only fools could buy into. Unfortunately our churches, synagogues, and mosques are full of these types of leaders and followers.

I have an idea: Let's all join "Fundamentalists Anonymous." I love the first three steps:

_1. I realize that I had turned control of my mind over to another person or group, who had assumed power over my thinking.
2. That person or group persuaded me of the inerrancy of the Bible (or the Q'ran), in spite of its many internal contradictions.
3. I became addicted to the Bible (or the Q'ran) as the supreme focus of my faith, in spite of the commandment that God should come first._

http://www.geocities.com/church_of_hank/fundamentalists_anonymous.html


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## cuchuflete

A reminder to me and to others: 





> the conflicts in the Middle East: two-pronged thesis. 1) Political problems in that area have deep religious roots. 2) Sacred books have played a significant role in creating and sustaining the problems.


The topic of this thread is not what any particular book has to say on the matter; rather, it is whether the books have had, and/or continue to have, a role in the conflict.
All those who wish to read and enjoy such books are heartily encouraged to do so. Quote them to friends and victims at social events. 
The intent of the hypotheses posted by Father Everness is not to justify any side of the conflict, but to discuss the role of religion in creating and/or sustaining it.

Thanks,
Cuchu

PS- would some kind infidel or believer please remind me to read this post before I write again?  Thanks, and may your god be a friendly one who only punishes people who cheat at cards.


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## Quebar

hay dos conceptos que debemos valorar, hay judios que mesianicos es decir que creen en Jesucristo como salvador y hay otros que son judios pero no son mesianicos, los mesianicos creen en al antiguo testamento y en el nuevo testamento, los no mesianicos creen solamente en al antiguo testamento solamente la razon es que ellos no consideran a Cristo como salvador del mundo. estos son los dos grupos de judios que exiten hoy en dia, hago referencia a este aspecto debido a que estamos hablando de sacred books, sin embargo los dos grupos creen ciertamente en la heredad de la tierra prometida aquella tierra que le prometio Dios a abraham (es necesario que hable en estos concepto porque el libro sagrado de los judios es la biblia y la torah, y seria imposible no hablar de este conflicto sin mencionar la biblia), los palestinos creen en el koran e donde creen en todas las profecias hechas por mahoma y su dios es ALA el cual no es el mismo que el de los judios.

Dios ha decidido es su soberania darles esa tierra a el pueblo de israel, para mi concepto este problema politico no se puede apartar de los principios de fe que estos dos pueblos practican o profesan gracias cuchuflete y everness por sus sugerencias.


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## ampurdan

Los musulmanes bien creen que el Dios de Abraham (para ellos Ibrahim) es "el Dios" (Alá o Allah). Incluso para ellos Jesús fue un profeta de Dios.


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## Quebar

Los musulmanes bien creen que el Dios de Abraham (para ellos Ibrahim) es "el Dios" (Alá o Allah). Incluso para ellos Jesús fue un profeta de Dios.
esa es la diferencia que marco en la pasada opinion, que para los cristianos o para los que pracicamos el cristianismo jesucristo no es un profeta, Jesucristo es parte de la esencia de Dios, pero bueno en esto no puedo profundizar mucho en este thread porque estaria off topic, pero estos son temas que no pueden ir apartados de este topic debido a que son paises que basan sus costumbres de manera radical en sus doctrinas de fe., calro ampurdan ellos dicen que su padre es abraham y es cierto porque es el padre de ismael, pero la biblia dice que el pacto perpetuo fue con isaac padre del pueblo de israel y dentro de ese pàcto esta la tierra que hoy estas dos nacines pelean.

gracias por sus opiniones y sugerencias amigos.


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