# FR: du Mans, de Le Corbusier, des Nuls - contraction de l'article devant les noms propres



## midgler

What is the rule when using 'de' in conjunction with a proper name beginning with 'Le'?  With place names it seems 'Du' is normal, as in "je viens du Mans, du Havre etc".  But I have also seen "de Le...." in these circumstances.  And what about people's names, eg "la maison du Corbusier" or "...de Le Corbusier".  Does it make any difference if the name is one word e.g. Lebrun?

*Moderator note:* multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## VGr

Towns
je viens du Mans (Le Mans, Le Havre : masculin)
je viens de La Haye (La Haye, La Paz: féminin)

People names
La maison de _Le Corbusier,_ Le Corbusier cannot be changed
La maison de _Lebrun,_ idem for Lebrun


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## Elme

bonjour,

When you use the name of a place : "de le" devient "du", "de les" devient "des"
"le Mans" "les 24 heures du Mans"
"les Shetland" "la laine des Shetland"

Also when you use a person's nickname : "de le" devient "du"
"le Tintoret" "un portrait du Tintoret"

But if you use a person's name : "de Le" remains "de Le"
"Le Brix" "l'avion de Le Brix"

Pour "le Corbusier", qui est un pseudonyme, on dit souvent "de Le Corbusier" et parfois "du Corbusier", ainsi que la recherche sous Google permet de le vérifier.


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## VagueNouvelle

so if im talking about the popularity of Les Tetes Raides is it

la popularite des Tetes Raides

or

la popularite de Les Tetes Raides

any help much appreciated


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## Matthieu.H

VagueNouvelle said:


> la popularite des Tetes Raides



La popularit*é* des T*ê*tes Raides. (be careful with your accents )


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## Punky Zoé

Bonjour VagueNouvelle et bienvenue sur le forum ! (c'est la nouvelle vague des forer@s ? )

On dit _la popularité des Têtes Raides, _mais je n'ai pas d'explications à te donner sur le pourquoi.


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## LV4-26

The rare exceptions are meant to be funny:
"_La Cité de La Peur_, le film de Les Nuls."


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## timpeac

Grop said:


> Ah, there's the exception of proper nouns of persons including "le". We may say "un discours de Le Pen" for instance.


 Ah I didn't know that! Thanks. However, when you say "may" do you mean "must"? In other words is it optional to say "un discours du Pen" or _must_ you say "un discours de le Pen" ?


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## itka

You *must* say "un discours de Le Pen".


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## CapnPrep

[…]
In this case, although "Le" is the definite article, "Pen" is not a French word. But the same rule applies even to names that really sound like noun phrases: Le Normand, Legrand, Leclerc.
[…]


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## scloughley

Hello there
I will be visiting a property called Les Blanchardières in France.  If I want to use that name and, for example, ask someone will they be coming to visit, would I ask
"venez-vous aux Blanchardières" or would I say "venez-vous à Les Blanchardières?"
I'm feeling that it should be the first but it somehow feels a bit wrong.  Yet the second feels slightly worse!

thanks and regards


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## DearPrudence

Hi sloughley 

To me, it should follow the "normal" rules of grammar.
"Je vais au supermarché."
"Je vais au Mans." (< le Mans)
...

So I would say "*aux Blanchardières*". "à les Blanchardières" sounds plain wrong to me.


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## scloughley

I asked this question and got one view, but I'm still not *quite* convinced and would like to revisit.
Let's say one wants to refer to a building called "Les Teillais" which, clearly, is a single object and not a collection of objects each called "Tellais".

Does one respect the name as a unit, or does one still apply the rule as if one were referring to a series of objects each called Tellais?
Specifically in spoken French one would say - je vais à "Les Teillais" or one would say je vais aux Teillais?
If the latter is true regarding spoken French, could one nonetheless WRITE the first, especially with the inverted commas in place?  Of course inverted commas cannot be used in written French, so perhaps the rule for writing can be different from that for speaking?

I would be really grateful for some further opinions on this one.


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## Nico Las

I would definitely say 'je vais aux Teillais' and also write it (although with less confidence), simply because we don't say 'à les'.
I think you could also refer to the thread about the 'de' particule, especially for familly names (I haven't been able to find the link). This is quite the same issue. 
I did not understand what you meant with 'inverted commas'. Les guillemets ?


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## boutondor

Speaking would be "je vais aux Teillais"
But this is typically what I try not to write. I would use an expression.
Je vais au lieu-dit "Les Teillais".


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## scloughley

Voilà - les guillemets.  Et je vous remercie.


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## mathilde70

Using the contraction is the correct written form:
Je vais au Mans (and not "à le")
La visite des Eyzies (and not "de les")...


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## Paxwax

Hello Scoughley. Without any doubt, we would say in French "Je vais aux Teillais". Both in spoken and written language.  

A bit of explanation as to why that is: 
If the place is called "Les Teillais", in means that in the old time, there indeed were a lot of "Teillais" at this place. Now, obviously, Teillais in French is meaningless, but it was probably an old word in the local language that actually meant something. In this case, I can guess it probably is a derivative of "Les taillis", i.e., the bushes. So you're basically saying: "I go to the bushes". It is indeed a plural form, hence, "aux taillis", and hence, "aux teillais".

If you really need to be convinced, I refer you to this poem from Victor Hugo. He refers to a place called "Les Tuileries" (it's actually the former palace of the kings of France). And he writes: "Je vais aux Tuileries" (line 14).


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## Nicomon

Hello scloughley,


I agree with mathilde

*This page *from the BDL may be of help. Based on the given examples with a place called « Les Éboulements », I personally would say/write :

_Je vais aux Teillais / Je reviens des Teillais. 

_*Edit :* I hadn't seen Paxwax' post. I obviously agree with him/her, too.


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## scloughley

OK, with all that consideration I am now convinced.  I still find it difficult to say "venez aux Teillais" to someone new who doesn't know that this refers in fact to a specific building/house, but an earlier poster has given me a perfect way to resolve this. I can simply say "venez a la maison (appellée) Les Teillais".
Super - thanks to all.


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## Nicomon

Opps... I misread and thought you were refering to the name of a village/township or tourist site. 

I agree that in case of a specific building/house, it may be better to specify, as boutondor did.  

_Passez nous voir/nous rendre visite à la maison Les Tellais/Les Blanchardières_.
_Nous vous invitons à visiter la maison Les Tellais / Les Blanchardières. 

Où vas-tu passer tes vacances?
Dans une jolie villa/résidence du xviie siècle appelée Les Blanchardières. _


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## nemerle

as a french, for all it is worth noting, "venez-vous à Les Blanchardières?" is NEVER a french sentence (discard "à les"... i.e. discard very rare exceptions!)

Indeed the right one is "venez-vous aux Blanchardières"... let me bet with you 1M€ 

In that kind of issue, always prefer "aux" if you're not able to decide...

best,


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## CapnPrep

As the other posters have explained, the standard rule is that contraction is required whenever _à _and _de_ are immediately followed by a placename containing the definite article _le_ or _les_. However it should be mentioned for the sake of completeness that, for some speakers, the result is unsatisfying, and except for very familiar examples like _Le Havre, Le Mans_, etc., such speakers will not hesitate to produce structures like °_à Les Teillais_ or °_de Les Blanchardières_.


			
				Grevisse §580 said:
			
		

> L’usage régulier contracte la préposition avec les noms de lieux commençant par _le_ ou _les_. *Rem.* On n’approuvera donc pas un ex. comme :   °_À Le Tremblai _(Rita Lejeune)



[This thread] makes it clear that there is no single rule for all "_noms propres_").


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