# Icelandic: miðbær



## Alxmrphi

I am reading my Icelandic grammar book and it started off well, but then takes a giant leap and doesn't explain a lot of stuff, and I'm confused by a ton of things but I'm not going to ask them all at once:

In the chapter, here are the sentences that use "miðbær (city centre)":

Hvað er helst að sjá í miðbænum? ................ - _What are the main things to see in the city centre?_
í miðbænum er tjörn og mjög fallegur garður. ...- _<?> city centre is a small lake and many beautiful gardens_
Það eru mörg kaffihús í miðbæ Reykjavíkur. ..... - _There are many cafés in the centre of Reykjavik._

Ok so the original dictionary form is "miðbær", and it is a masculine noun.
The first two usages I don't know what -num at the end means and I don't understand the case thing in the third one, it has been declined, but into what and why?

Ah, I just had a thought, "miðbær" is declined because of the preposition "í" - and in the book it also says when you want to say "in somewhere" - in this case "in the city centre" it takes the dative, so would this be the dative?

I have no idea what noun group it belongs to, how can I tell what one it is?


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## modus.irrealis

Maybe I can be a bit helpful now because I picked up a pretty decent-looking book on Icelandic I happened to see at a book store.



Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok so the original dictionary form is "miðbær", and it is a masculine noun.
> The first two usages I don't know what -num at the end means and I don't understand the case thing in the third one, it has been declined, but into what and why?



I think you're right about it being dative because the í (and it's very common in heavily inflected languages for prepositions to govern different cases), and it seems that all nouns in the dative plural end in -um, so that covers the first two and I guess it's just idiomatic that the plural is used in that expression. Although, I don't see why it ends in -num.

In the third, miðbæ seems to be the dative singular and Reykjavíkur in the dative, so that's how you get "centre of Reykjavik."



> I have no idea what noun group it belongs to, how can I tell what one it is?


An online dictionary lists it as 

 mið/bær m           (            -bæjar, -bæir) 

and it seems that this means the genitive singular is miðbæjar and the nominative plural is miðbæir, so I guess you just need to find which group of nouns has this pattern (-r, -jar,-ir for the various cases) and that's where miðbær belongs.


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## Alxmrphi

The nouns in the dative plural, you mentions it covers the first two, but "in the city centre" isn't plural?
Even if it is plural, like the second example seems to be (gardenS) etc, then wouldn't the third sentence be plural

"There ARE many cafeS in the ........" etc.
I also went to the same dictionary to try and find out the group, but I didn't notice what the other words next to it meant, I am just going to look at another site to find out:

3)    _gen sg_ *-ar*, _ nom pl_ *-ir
*
 Found it, uh now I have to find out how its rules apply.

Ok, all the cases are all in the dative, that I have worked out, but the using of the plural in 2 and singular in the other, I still don't understand, but your response led me to find out how to find what group Icelandic nouns are in, thank you!


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## Lorixnt2

Alex_Murphy said:


> I am reading my Icelandic grammar book and it started off well, but then takes a giant leap and doesn't explain a lot of stuff, and I'm confused by a ton of things but I'm not going to ask them all at once:
> 
> In the chapter, here are the sentences that use "miðbær (city centre)":
> 
> Hvað er helst að sjá í miðbænum? ................ - _What are the main things to see in the city centre?_
> í miðbænum er tjörn og mjög fallegur garður. ...- _<?> city centre is a small lake and many beautiful gardens_
> Það eru mörg kaffihús í miðbæ Reykjavíkur. ..... - _There are many cafés in the centre of Reykjavik._
> 
> Ok so the original dictionary form is "miðbær", and it is a masculine noun.
> The first two usages I don't know what -num at the end means and I don't understand the case thing in the third one, it has been declined, but into what and why?
> 
> Ah, I just had a thought, "miðbær" is declined because of the preposition "í" - and in the book it also says when you want to say "in somewhere" - in this case "in the city centre" it takes the dative, so would this be the dative?
> 
> I have no idea what noun group it belongs to, how can I tell what one it is?




Eh Alex, wish I was an Icelander at least  but I must say Latin has been of great help. _Miðbænum_ is a singular dative  _me__ð__ greinis_ that is to say with the enclitic article, _miðbæ_, instead,  _án __greinis, _without it. Since Icelandic like German has only 4 cases many of the latin ablative functions are replaced  by the dative and particularly in this case the state in a place. For the motion to a place, instead, as in Latin, the accusative is generally used.


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## modus.irrealis

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok, all the cases are all in the dative, that I have worked out, but the using of the plural in 2 and singular in the other, I still don't understand, but your response led me to find out how to find what group Icelandic nouns are in, thank you!



Now that Lorixnt2 has explained that they're all singular, my comments should be completely ignored -- I just jumped to a faulty conclusion after reading that all nouns end in -um in the dative plural, sorry about that.


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## Alxmrphi

Lorinxt, I am not sure if I understood.

In this dictionary entry:



> mið/bær m           (            -bæj*ar*, -bæ*ir*)
> city center, downtown area, (_UK_) city centre
> _í ~bænum downtown
> _


I can see what noun group it belongs to but the underneath part, is that just how you write the word with "í" as a preceding preposition?
Or is it actually "dative", because I was told dative meant "the indirect object" and I can't see how THAT applies here, but the dictionary seems to say *"you want to use it with í, then it's -bænum"*.

About "miðbæ" can you go over that in English like you'd speak to a baby?
LOL, My brain is melting away trying to comprehend this, I can't wait till I understand it all perfectly.


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## modus.irrealis

Alex_Murphy said:


> I can see what noun group it belongs to but the underneath part, is that just how you write the word with "í" as a preceding preposition?
> 
> Or is it actually "dative", because I was told dative meant "the indirect object" and I can't see how THAT applies here, but the dictionary seems to say *"you want to use it with í, then it's -bænum"*.



Usually when a language has cases it will use them in more than one way, so it might be better to think of it as "one of the uses of the dative is to indicate the indirect object." Another use of a case is with prepositions, where certain prepositions require that the noun that follow them be in a certain case, but other prepositions might be used with more than one case, with a change of meaning depending on the case. The latter is how í works since, after looking it up, when it's followed by the accusative it means "in, into" (implying some kind of motion) but with the dative it means "in" (implying lack of motion, i.e. something's at rest). [Lorixnt2 mentioned Latin being slightly different, but Greek actually uses these two cases the exact same way here: accusative means motion, dative means at rest.]

As for miðbæ, it on its own is the dative singular of miðbær and the -num is the dative singular of the definite article when it's attached to the end of a word, so miðbænum as a whole is "the city centre" in the dative case. The dictionary entry is just saying that the phrase í miðbænum means "downtown" (and not just the literal "in the city centre" -- although the two meanings don't seem too different to me).


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## Spectre scolaire

The declension of _miðbær_ would go like this:


_singular_ - _plural_​nom. miðbær – miðbæir​acc. miðbæ - miðbæi​gen. miðbæjar - miðbæja​dat. miðbæ - miðbæjum​Hvað er helst að sjá í miðbænum? 

The last word must be a misunderstanding. It is most probably _miðbæjum_. Or _miðbæjunum_ - with the definite article attached! 
​


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## Alxmrphi

> As for miðbæ, it on its own is the dative singular of miðbær and the -num is the dative singular of the definite article when it's attached to the end of a word, so miðbænum as a whole is "the city centre" in the dative case. The dictionary entry is just saying that the phrase í miðbænum means "downtown" (and not just the literal "in the city centre" -- although the two meanings don't seem too different to me).



Yay! That's sort of exactly what I was looking for, I am only used to seeing the definite article in the nominative (-inn/-in/-ið), I didn't check it would be different there.



> Hvað er helst að sjá í miðbænum?
> 
> The last word must be a misunderstanding. It is most probably  _miðbæjum_.



I checked the book to see if I typed it wrong, and I haven't, it's in the main body of the text like that and in the underneath translation section exactly the same. 
What makes you think it is a misunderstanding Spectre?

Also, while I'm here, what is "að sjá" ? - It looks like "to see" but I thought "to see = að skoða" - just a little curious

Takk


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## Lorixnt2

Alex_Murphy said:


> Yay! That's sort of exactly what I was looking for, I am only used to seeing the definite article in the nominative (-inn/-in/-ið), I didn't check it would be different there.
> 
> 
> 
> I checked the book to see if I typed it wrong, and I haven't, it's in the main body of the text like that and in the underneath translation section exactly the same.
> What makes you think it is a misunderstanding Spectre?
> 
> Also, while I'm here, what is "að sjá" ? - It looks like "to see" but I thought "to see = að skoða" - just a little curious
> 
> Takk



It seems to me modus.irrealis has already answered Alex. Anyway since you fully decline also the determinate  article you could think to it when it is used as a sort of double declension. Sometimes it can be even useful in the comprehension of the position of the undeclinable names or in cases of ambiguity.


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## Alxmrphi

Ok, I'll re-read, you do mean "definite" article, by the way, right?
If not then I don't understand "determinate article"

[Edit] - Re-read and understood!

All my examples of "miðbær" are in the dative singular, as the preposition "í" requires, twice with the definite article attacked and once without (miðbænum and miðbæ respectively)!

Yay I understand it now, thus bringing me to my last question:
Why isn't it needed in the 3rd example of mine? "Main things to see in *THE* city centre?" - but it is missing the article in the Icelandic.


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## Lorixnt2

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok, I'll re-read, you do mean "definite" article, by the way, right?
> If not then I don't understand "determinate article"
> 
> [Edit] - Re-read and understood!
> 
> All my examples of "miðbær" are in the dative singular, as the preposition "í" requires, twice with the definite article attacked and once without (miðbænum and miðbæ respectively)!
> 
> Yay I understand it now, thus bringing me to my last question:
> Why isn't it needed in the 3rd example of mine? "Main things to see in *THE* city centre?" - but it is missing the article in the Icelandic.




I understand your question but I cannot help Alex. Maybe it's a usage property. The _me__ð__ greinis _form seems to be used alone, the _án __greinis _with the genitive of the town/city it is referred to. In Italian I'd say it is the opposite. You usually say in centro without the article or ne*l* centro di Roma.


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## Alxmrphi

I have an Icelander on my MSN list, I'll ask and post the answer to clear this up for us, and anyone who might read this nel futuro.


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## Lorixnt2

Alex_Murphy said:


> I have an Icelander on my MSN list, I'll ask and post the answer to clear this up for us, and anyone who might read this nel futuro.



psssssssst Alex but in Italian you say_ in futuro


_awawawawawawawawawaw!

Diciamolo pure these usage properties give us hell (or the hell?)


awawawawawawawawawaw!

ask the icelandic girl and post it


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## Alxmrphi

in futuro, you know, I had my suspicions it MIGHT be that, but I've written "nel futuro" in the past without being corrected, definite article rules, annoying! She's not online but when I do ask her I will post it here.


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## modus.irrealis

Before you get your answer, I just wanted to say that it reminds me of English, and I'd also guess it has something to do with the genitive, which corresponds to 's in English. I mean, you would say

There are many stores in the city centre,

but also

There are many stores in Reykjavik's city centre,

where, I guess, the possessive is felt to make it definite enough that you don't need to still express the definite article.



Alex_Murphy said:


> Yay! That's sort of exactly what I was looking for, I am only used to seeing the definite article in the nominative (-inn/-in/-ið), I didn't check it would be different there.



In my experience, this is the most difficult part of learning a heavily inflected language -- when you start reading real sentences, it's tough until you're able to automatically identify what form a word might be, and honestly, sometimes it feels some languages are purposefully perverse the way they use the same ending in completely different ways depending on the word, so you can't even say, oh if it ends in X, it's always Y.


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## Alxmrphi

Tell me about it, yet it's this annoying thing that drives me to conquer it!


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## Alxmrphi

Ok I couldn't get a syntax rule, but apparently it's like "*A* city centre" but used like "the city centre"

If "Reykjavikur" wasn't there, then "í miðbænum" would be correct
But with "Reykjavikur" - the article is implied and if you said:

"í miðbænum Reykjavikur" (like I expected it) one will sound retarded (apparently)


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## Spectre scolaire

Looking at the development of this thread, I should probably come up with a modification to what I said in #8. 

I don’t think my paradigm is wrong – it is easy to decline nouns in Icelandic once you have some knowledge of Old Norse. But I have got no idea about popular speech in Icelandic – even if I was walking around quite a lot in the streets of Reykjavík some 20 years ago during our holiday. It is a delightful language to listen to! Because of the pre-aspiration, it reminds me of Irish. 

So, what about “popular speech”?

I strongly suspect *miðbænum* to be a popular pronunciation of *miðbæjunum*. 

The following is a googled-up sentence:

Ég var að tala við vin minn frá þýskalandi og hann sagði að þetta hefði gerst um allt þýskaland í kringum 1950-60, það hefði allt verið jafnað við jörðu í miðbæjunum og byggt nýtískuleg hús allstaðar.​The context is poor as I don't find the sentence on the site itself, but it would more or less mean this, I hope:

“I had a chat with my friend from Germany, and he said that if Germany had already done this around 1950-60, everything would have been rased to the ground in the city centres and useful houses would have been built everywhere.”​Googling _miðbæjunum_ you only get 12 results while _miðbænum_ gets 111.000!

A propos #9: I think the verbs _sjá_ and _skoða_ correspond more or less to “see” and “look [at]”.

By the way, I think _in futuro_ and _nel futuro_ have two different meanings! I this case, _Lorixnt2_ is right in correcting _Alex Murphy_. (But this has nothing to do with Icelandic...)
 ​


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## modus.irrealis

Spectre scolaire said:


> I strongly suspect *miðbænum* to be a popular pronunciation of *miðbæjunum*.



What makes you think it's not just the dative singular miðbæ + the enclitic dative singular definite article -num?


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## Spectre scolaire

Nothing really! I wrote it too quickly during my lunch break and didn’t even try to establish all the paradigm of *miðbær* furnished with the definite article!

I can read Icelandic – at a pinch! - with the help of a _dictionary_, but I haven’t even got _that_ next to me where I am now. Quite another thing is to generate sentences. My Icelandic is _very_ passive.

Let me now try and establish the paradigm _with the article_:

_singular_ and _plural_​nom. miðbærinn – miðbæirnir​​​acc. miðbæinn - miðbæina​gen. miðbæjarins - miðbæjanna​dat. miðbæ*n*um – miðbæjum*n*um​Phew! How do you interpret the fat n?

If it hadn’t been for this thread, I would never have thought of making the effort. Now it is about dinner time here around...
 ​


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## modus.irrealis

Ah -- I thought maybe you saw some reason why that explanation was unlikely.


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## Spectre scolaire

There is no reason to disregard facts – as long as “facts” are undeniable.

What about the morphological segmentation?
 ææææi! ​


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## modus.irrealis

The n just seems to be coming from the article itself. I mean, its regular form (which I assume is either the source of the enclitic form or at least close enough) is in the masculine:

nom. sing. hinn - pl. hinir
acc. hinn - hina
dat. hinum - hinum
gen. hins - hinna

so nothing seems too surprising about the n in the dative forms.

(Actually I'm more surprised about the -um but now I realize I shouldn't be because this just seems to be a feature of the (older) Germanic languages, and I did once upon a time know that Old English has the same -um ending in the dative singular of pronouns/articles but not in nouns.)


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## EmmiLitli

OK, I didn´t feel like reading all that so I'm just going say what it means.
mið - center
bær - town
So I think it's like maintown, towncentre or something.


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## jonquiliser

Wow, we how have someone from Iceland on the forum - there aren't many of you around here. Welcome, Emmilitli


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## EmmiLitli

hehe thanks


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