# EA: Returning - raagi3



## gsc

رجوع رَاجِع
Which is correct please?


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## Xence

رجوع = return (_noun_)
رجوع (عودة) الابن الضال =The return of the prodigal son


***

راجع = returning (_adjective_)
أنا راجع إلى بلدتي = I am returning to my village


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## gsc

Thank you - for once I am getting frustrated because my book has no script


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## londonmasri

On a different but related note, may I ask what the difference is between 'irga3' and 'ragga3'?


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## cherine

irga3= come back (intransitive verb)
ragga3= return something back. (transitive verb)
The MSA equivalet of ragga3 is arji3 أرجع .
Example of usage:
arje3 al-kitaab alladhi esta3artahu ilaa al-maktaba
أَرْجِعْ الكتابَ الذي اسْتَعَرْتَهُ إلى المَكْتَبَةِ
Return the book you've borrowed to the library.


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## kifaru

cherine said:


> irga3= come back (intransitive verb)
> ragga3= return something back. (transitive verb)
> The MSA equivalet of ragga3 is arji3 أرجع .
> Example of usage:
> arje3 al-kitaab alladhi esta3artahu ilaa al-maktaba
> أَرْجِعْ الكتابَ الذي اسْتَعَرْتَهُ إلى المَكْتَبَةِ
> Return the book you've borrowed to the library.


 Why do you need the word الذي in this sentence?


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## Josh_

You need it because الكتاب is definite.  It is not always necessary to include the relative pronoun in English, but it is mandatory in Arabic (that is, when the object is definite).


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## gsc

So after being asked 'where are you going?' how would an Egyptian follow  'to the libary' with:

I am returning a book.
or
to return a book
or 
tomorrow I am returning a book


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## cherine

I'm not sure I understood the question, but here's my try:
-  رايح فين؟  raaye7 feen?
Where are going?
- رايح المكتبة أرجّع كتاب raaye7 elmaktaba aragga3 ketaab
I'm going to the library, returning a book (not a very good English sentence, but I wasn't sure how to render the similarity to the Arabic sentence)
- رايح المكتبة عشان أرجّع كتاب raaye7 elmaktaba 3ashan aragga3 ketaab
I'm going to the library to returning a book.

As for "tomorrow I'm returning a book", we can say: 7aragga3 el ketaab bokra. Or, bokra 7aragga3 el ketaab.


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## gsc

Thanks Cherine. I was trying to make sure I understood the difference between "I am returnING a book" "I am going to return a book" and whether if I do it tomorrow using bokra will suffice instead of a future tense.

Now I will go and think about your answer


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## gsc

Ok I have thought

So - in English we say "I am returning a book" when we are doing it now but also if we intend to do it tomorrow we may say either 'tomorrow I will return the book' or sometimes we have this situation:

I can't have coffee with you tomorrow - I am returning a book to the library.

I was thinking about the correct tense for this in Arabic - so I must make it future by adding 'Ha'?

Also I haven't quite got the use of using two verbs, as in 'I intend to return the book when I have time' or 'I decided to return the book another day'.

أرجّع I hate this small writing but I think you used a shadda there? Is that optional or necessary?

Edit:  Maybe I should have asked 'Yesterday I returned a book' - 1 verb!


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## ayed

I can't have coffee with you tomorrow - I am returning a book to the library.
I am not Egyptian but let me give it a try:

*مش آدره/آدر أشرب أهوه معك بكره لأني حرقـع/هرقع الكتاب للمكتبة*


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## clevermizo

gsc said:


> I was thinking about the correct tense for this in Arabic - so I must make it future by adding 'Ha'?



Actually, you should be able to use the form with b- for implied future, similar to the use of present progressive for implied future in English. However, using 7a/ha- would be obviously future tense. My guess is you can probably say bokra baragga3lak il-ketaab, as well as bokra 7aragga3lak il-ketaab. 




> Also I haven't quite got the use of using two verbs, as in 'I intend to return the book when I have time' or 'I decided to return the book another day'.



In colloquial Arabic you usually accomplish this by apposition. The second verb in the apposition is usually the "naked" present tense (without any 7a-, b-, etc. modifiers) (This is sometimes referred to by Western linguists as the "subjunctive" on analogy with European languages). Remember, Arabic doesn't have an "infinitive" in the same way that many European languages do.

I intend to return the book when I have time. _Naawi aragga3 il-ketaab lamma yekuun 3indi wa2t_.
I decided to return the book another day. _Qarrart aragga3 il-ketaab fi yoom taani._

In standard Arabic this is can accomplished by using a particle أنْ+الفعل المنصوب for some verbs and أنّ or إنّ for others. Furthermore, you can often use the مصدر as a quasi-infinitive. 



> أرجّع I hate this small writing but I think you used a shadda there? Is that optional or necessary?



The shadda in speech is necessary. In writing it would often be omitted, however when I write in Arabic, I usually write shadda.


Sorry for my possibly awful attempts at Egyptian dialect .


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## gsc

Thanks guys - you put me to shame that I am too frightened to try with my meagre skills.

However, here is my attempt - just don't ask how long it took me 

mish mumkin ashrab `ahwa ma&ek bukra li-ann aragga& kitaab fii il maktaba
مش ممكن أشرب قهوة معك بكرة لأن أرجع كتاب في إل مكتبة

Clevermizo I have just seen your reply for which many thanks. Now I need to think some more about all that.

Yes those 2 examples were the same. I'm just a bit brain-fogged with all the verb possibilities at the moment.

About the shadda, in my spreadsheet I have two columns, one with all the shorts vowels etc. and one where I strip them out. I cannot make up my mind whether to strip out the shadda or leave it in.


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## clevermizo

gsc said:


> Thanks guys - you put me to shame that I am too frightened to try with my meagre skills.
> 
> However, here is my attempt - just don't ask how long it took me
> 
> mish mumkin ashrab `ahwa ma&ek bukra li-ann aragga& kitaab fii il maktaba
> صباح الخير تحب تشرب حاجة معك بكرة لأن أرجع كتاب في إل مكتبة



I'm not sure if the two sentences (in transliteration and Arabic script) are meant to be the same - because they are not. 

Anyway, it sounds a little weird, and I think it should be something like: Ma ba2darsh/Mosh aader ashrab ahwa ma3aak (ma3aaki _fem_ ) bokra 3ashanni laazem aragga3 ketaab lil-maktaba.

ما بقدرش/مش قادر أشرب قهوة معاك (معاكي) بكرا عشانني لازم أرجّع كتاب للمكتبة

This is literally, I cannot drink coffee with you tomorrow because I have to return a book *to* (not "in") the library.  It's not "I am returning" or "I am going to return" technically, but it sounds a little more natural to me (in English at least). Anyway, it's almost identical to Ayed's suggestion.

By the way, what you wrote in Arabic above looks like "Good morning - would you like to drink something with you tomorrow because I return a book in the library"  which is a little strange-looking  . If you're copying and pasting, it might be some splicing error of things in your vocabulary list.


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## gsc

oops - yes I copied from something else I was working on too. Not sure how that happened.

It should have been
مش ممكن أشرب قهوة معك بكرة لأن أرجع كتاب في إل مكتبة
but now I must go rethink when I've read your reply.


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## cherine

gsc said:


> I was thinking about the correct tense for this in Arabic - so I must make it future by adding 'Ha'?


_*Sometimes*_ we express the future by this form (I'm not sure how it's called, it's on the wazn faa3il) : أنا ماشي، أنا راجع، أنا رايح ... But we can't form this with other verbs like رجّع and there must be an indicator of the future: like tomorrow, next week, next month....



> أرجّع I hate this small writing but I think you used a shadda there? Is that optional or necessary?


It's optional, like all diacritical marks. But it's better to put it to differentiate between rajja3 (he returned something) and raji3a (he returned/came back).



ayed said:


> I am not Egyptian but let me give it a try:
> 
> *مش آدره/آدر أشرب أهوه معك بكره لأني حرقـع/هرقع الكتاب للمكتبة*


Good try, Ayed  But allow me two comments:
1- We can't really say mesh aadra ashrab bokra. With this verb, it's better to use H. mesh aader/adra refers to the present. Using bokra isn't enough to change that meaning, so we must change the verb form.
2- I know that Saudis pronounce the ق as "g", but please don't use it when transliterating Egyptian, it can be misleading or confusing, specially that رقّع is another verb in Arabic.


clevermizo said:


> Actually, you should be able to use the form with b- for implied future, similar to the use of present progressive for implied future in English. However, using 7a/ha- would be obviously future tense. My guess is you can probably say bokra baragga3lak il-ketaab, as well as bokra 7aragga3lak il-ketaab.


Maybe this (the use of b-) is true with Levantine Arabic, but not with Egyptian. The "b" only refers to the present progressive. 


clevermizo said:


> Anyway, it sounds a little weird, and I think it should be something like: Ma ba2darsh/Mosh aader ashrab ahwa ma3aak (ma3aaki _fem_ ) bokra 3ashanni laazem aragga3 ketaab lil-maktaba.
> 
> ما بقدرش/مش قادر أشرب قهوة معاك (معاكي) بكرا عشانني لازم أرجّع كتاب للمكتبة


As I said: مش قادر doesn't work, and ما بقدرش refers to a habit or a normal/usual thing. Putting bokra doesn't change this meaning.
3ashanni is Levantine  In Egypt we say 3ashaan, with no pronouns.



gsc said:


> oops - yes I copied from something else I was working on too. Not sure how that happened.
> 
> It should have been
> مش ممكن أشرب قهوة معك بكرة لأن أرجع كتاب في إل مكتبة
> but now I must go rethink when I've read your reply.


There's a missing word after li2an, and the "al" doesn't take a hamza and should be linked to the word it's defining. Other than that, your sentence is very correct 
مش ممكن أشرب قهوة معك بكرة لأني 
لازم أرجّع كتاب للمكتبة
And instead of mesh momken, you can use the common expression:
مش حينفع 
which means: it won't be possible.​


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## clevermizo

cherine said:


> Maybe this (the use of b-) is true with Levantine Arabic, but not with Egyptian. The "b" only refers to the present progressive.



Oops . It is. In Levantine you use the structure 3am (b-) to mean the progressive, but the form in b- can be used for the habitual present tense (where it is necessary) or the implied future.



cherine said:


> 1- We can't really say mesh aadra ashrab bokra. With this verb, it's better to use H. mesh aader/adra refers to the present. Using bokra isn't enough to change that meaning, so we must change the verb form.



Just to clarify, does this mean you would say _ Mesh 7a2dar ashrab ma3aak bokra _ ?


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## gsc

Shukran gazeelan Cherine شكراً جزيلاً (I hope I have that right)

I will stop for tonight now - my head is spinning. I am trying to look at how much I have learnt not how much I still don't know. Sometimes it seems daunting.

Just a couple of points.

laazim - means must or necessary? but this doesn't alter the phrasing of the sentence?

In English we would say 
because I am returning a book
or
because I must return a book

but in Arabic we simply add laazim?

حينفع 
Could you transliterate this please so I know how to say it.


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## ayed

gsc said:


> حينفع
> Could you transliterate this please so I know how to say it.


Ha/yin/fa3
 Hayinfaa3


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## cherine

Sorry for the late reply. 


clevermizo said:


> Just to clarify, does this mean you would say _Mesh 7a2dar ashrab ma3aak bokra _?


Yes, that's right. 



gsc said:


> Shukran gazeelan Cherine شكراً جزيلاً (I hope I have that right)


Yes, you have 


> laazim - means must or necessary? but this doesn't alter the phrasing of the sentence?


Yes. laazim mean should or must (according to context and tone).


> In English we would say
> because I am returning a book
> or
> because I must return a book
> 
> but in Arabic we simply add laazim?


No, in Arabic too, we can say "because I am returning a book":
3ashaan 7aragga3 ketaab lelmaktaba
and "because I must return a book":
3ashaan laazem aragga3...


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## gsc

Thank you Ayed and Cherine

I am in bed with a cold today so I am having a 'listening day' (if I can stop the dog trying to trash my laptop). I am going to try not to stop and ask a question every sentence  but maybe I will try and translate one sentence from my daily life until I start to feel I'm getting somewhere.


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