# hartnäckige (pronunciation)



## Abstreet

Hello !

I would like to know how to pronounce the adjective "hartnäckig" when it is used as part of a noun phrase, like the following : "Diese Menschen machen eine sehr hartnäckige Arbeit."
Should I say "hartnäckige" like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪkə or like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə ?

Thanks in advance for your answers !


----------



## Demiurg

Abstreet said:


> Should I say "hartnäckige" like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪkə or like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə ?


Both variants are wrong.  Auslautverhärtung 'g' => 'k' only occurs at the end. Otherwise the 'g' is pronounced like a 'g': [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*g*ə]


----------



## Abstreet

Ok thanks ! 
That means I can't say haʁtˌnɛkɪçə evan if I pronounce hartnäckig (without the "e" like that : haʁtˌnɛkɪç ) ?
And so the "e" at the end turns the "ɪç" pronunciation into a "gə" pronunciation, if i untderstand correctly ?


----------



## jedna

Hi Abstreet,

This link might help too: Duits uitspraken gids
You can find 'hartnäckige' as well as 'hartnäckig'.


----------



## Perseas

jedna said:


> This link might help too: Duits uitspraken gids


About "hartnäckig", I think I hear "-ɪc", not "-ɪç"


----------



## Abstreet

Well, from what I know, an adjective ending in "ig" will either be pronounced "ik" or "ɪç", depending on the region the speaker is from. However, both pronunciations are accepted. 
However, I wasn't sure how to pronounce it when there is "ige" or "igen" ad the end of the adjective, for instance.


----------



## Demiurg

Abstreet said:


> Well, from what I know, an adjective ending in "ig" will either be pronounced "ik" or "ɪç", depending on the region the speaker is from. However, both pronunciations are accepted.


Exactly. 


Abstreet said:


> That means I can't say haʁtˌnɛkɪçə evan if I pronounce hartnäckig (without the "e" like that : haʁtˌnɛkɪç ) ?
> And so the "e" at the end turns the "ɪç" pronunciation into a "gə" pronunciation, if i untderstand correctly ?


That's right.  You will hear [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ç*ə] only from dialect speakers.


----------



## Perseas

Demiurg said:


> Exactly.



 True, but our German (Frankfurt) teacher used to correct us as learners when we didn’t pronounce  [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ç*] .


----------



## Abstreet

Thanks for your answers, that's clear now.


----------



## JClaudeK

Abstreet said:


> Well, from what I know, an adjective ending in "ig" will either be pronounced "ik" or "ɪç", depending on the region the speaker is from.


Hier eine Diskussion (auf französisch) dazu.


----------



## Demiurg

Here's a map: Aussprache König, wenig und zwanzig.  However, the pronunciation -isch (-ɪʃ) is considered non-standard.


----------



## JClaudeK

Nebenbei gefragt:
Kann man wirklich sagen "hartnäckige Arbeit machen"?

Die Arbeit selbst ist ja nicht hartnäckig, sondern derjenige, der sie leistet, oder?


----------



## Abstreet

Thanks for the map, that's really helpful. 
Yes, I guess that it would be more natural to say something like "harte Arbeit" and use "hartnäckig" only for people, but it was mainly intended as an example so as to see which was the correct pronunciation.


----------



## berndf

Demiurg said:


> That's right. You will hear [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ç*ə] only from dialect speakers.


That sounds very unlikely to me. The traditional Northern (down to a line South of Cologne and Berlin) pronunciation is ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ʝ*ə]. Most Northern standard speakers today say [g] but not all.


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> That sounds very unlikely to me. The traditional Northern (down to a line South of Cologne and Berlin) pronunciation is ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ʝ*ə]. Most Northern standard speakers today say [g] but not all.


Is it the same phenomenon by which in the North one hears 'jut' instead of 'gut'? And can't that be considered a dialectical pronunciation?
I remember an old rule stating that, if the -ig ending is followed by a vowel in declension, then the g pronunciation is compulsory (no more ç, not to mention j or similar) in standard German.


----------



## berndf

At the beginning of a word, the _g_ has also traditionally reverted to a stop. _Jut_ and _Jold_ is Northern Central German and can be considered dialectical, though it was was also part of Prussian upper class accent (_preußischer Jardeton_).


----------



## Hutschi

Abstreet said:


> Well, from what I know, an adjective ending in "ig" will either be pronounced "ik" or "ɪç", depending on the region the speaker is from. However, both pronunciations are accepted.
> ...


I agree. Even Wictionary gives both variants:

hartnäckig – Wiktionary
IPA: [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪç], [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪk]

In plural, I'd prefer [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə], the form with "g" is very difficult to speak.


----------



## berndf

Hutschi said:


> In plural, I'd prefer [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə], the form with "g" is very difficult to speak.


Really [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪ*ç*ə] and not ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*ʝ*ə] or ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*j*ə]? I am surprised.


----------



## Hutschi

There are small regions speaking it with "j",  ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*j*ə] - e.g. Berlin and Magdeburg in dialect-influenced speech.
If somebody speaks  ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*j*ə]  you can tell the region were he came from quite well.

Duden | Zweifelsfälle bei der Aussprache


> Dasselbe gilt auch für die Buchstabenfolge _-ig: _Auch hier wird das auslautende _-g_standardsprachlich nicht wie ein_ k_ [k] gesprochen, sondern wie der Reibelaut in dem Wort_ich_ [ç]. Das gilt für Wörter wie_ König, Honig, eilig, sperrig _und viele andere Adjektive auf _-ig. _Sobald aber durch Deklination weitere Buchstaben hinzutreten, wird das _g _wieder wie _g _gesprochen: _die Könige, eilige Nachrichten, in einer sperrigen Kiste._ Folgt der Endung _-ig _die Ableitungssilbe _-lich (königlich)_, so wird das _g_ wie ein _k _[k] gesprochen.



So  [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə] is strictly speaking not correct. It should be [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*g*ə].
 "j" is not in the range they consider in the Duden, at all.


* ig:*
Aussprache König, wenig und zwanzig «  atlas-alltagssprache (Demiurg, #11)

I just see: even "Könisch" exist in regional forms.
Some years ago I heared this in Dresden, too.

In dialect influenced language (sächsisch) the Plural is "Kön'sche" or "Könische", sometimes. But I did not hear it for a long time.
Edit: So it is here in dialect influenced regional form in Plural: "Hartnäckische" rather than "Hartnäckije".


----------



## berndf

Hutschi said:


> There are small regions speaking it with "j", ['haʁtˌnɛkɪ*j*ə] - e.g. Berlin and Magdeburg in dialect-influenced speech.


I am not talking about that and I am not talking about correct or incorrect. My question was about this:


Hutschi said:


> In plural, I'd prefer [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə], the form with "g" is very difficult to speak.


Intervocalic devoicing seems totally strange to me. And I am not a Northern Central German speaker who would naturally say things like _janz jut_. Spirantization at the beginning of a word is something completely different.


----------



## Hutschi

Maybe I interprete it wrongly. I speak usually (wrongly) "hartnäckiche". I am not so firm in IPA. I think this is:  [ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə]
edit:
I do not see the devoicing.
In singular "ig" is already unvoiced. So it will remain unvoiced.
Only in standard (Duden) it is voiced in plural, but with another sound. [haʁtˌnɛkɪ*g*ə].​


----------



## berndf

Again nothing to do with right or wrong. I am just surprised what you consider _easy_. I would most of the time say 1 and I might say 2 but I would never say 3 as in the attached recording.

Hartnäckige.mp3


----------



## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> I remember an old rule stating that, if the -ig ending is followed by a vowel in declension, then the g pronunciation is compulsory (no more ç, not to mention j or similar) in standard German.



Darum geht's hier! 





Abstreet said:


> Should I say "hartnäckige" like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪkə or like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə ?


'Standard-pronounciation' is ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪ*g*ə'


> Siehe Duden
> Sobald aber durch Deklination weitere Buchstaben hinzutreten, wird das _g _wieder wie _g_ gesprochen: _die Könige, eilige Nachrichten, in einer sperrigen Kiste._ Folgt der Endung _-ig _die Ableitungssilbe _-lich (königlich)_, so wird das _g_ wie ein _k _[k] gesprochen.


----------



## Hutschi

Abstreet said:


> Hello !
> 
> I would like to know how to pronounce the adjective "hartnäckig" when it is used as part of a noun phrase, like the following : "Diese Menschen machen eine sehr hartnäckige Arbeit."
> Should I say "hartnäckige" like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪkə or like ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪçə ?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your answers !


*
Summary of our discussions:*

*declined*
'Standard-pronounciation' is ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪgə'

Locally there may be other pronunciations but you should stay with the voiced "g" here. (stimmhaftes g)
*
not declined*
'Standard-pronounciation'
"Hartnäckig" without declension is ˈhaʁtˌnɛkɪç, however. (Reibelaut)


----------

