# お母さん as a pronoun



## DJ_Saidez

I'm translating Japanese sentences to English, and the requisite is that these English sentences sound natural on their own, too, because of the nature of the project.

Original:


> お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんでしょ？



I already added this translation
_My mom keeps doting on my little brother. Doesn't she love me anymore?_
which I think is probably fine, but I'd appreciate feedback with it too.

The other translation I'm most unsure about is this one, where お母さん is a pronoun


> Mom, all you do is pay attention to my little brother. Don't you love me anymore?



I'm probably maybe being overly insecure, but does this sentence sound too literal or is it natural?

I'm new here so sorry if I'm doing anything wrong


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## gengo

DJ_Saidez said:


> お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんでしょ？
> 
> _My mom keeps doting on my little brother. Doesn't she love me anymore?_
> Mom, all you do is pay attention to my little brother. Don't you love me anymore?



Although the sentence ends with a question mark, I don't think it is a true question, and I wouldn't translate it that way.
To give a good translation, we need to know about the context.  Is the speaker speaking to the mother, or to someone else?



DJ_Saidez said:


> I'm new here so sorry if I'm doing anything wrong



Your thread title must be the words you are asking about, and nothing else.  That allows people to find the thread by searching the dictionary in the future.


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## DJ_Saidez

> Your thread title must be the words you are asking about, and nothing else. That allows people to find the thread by searching the dictionary in the future.


I forgot about that point, thanks.



> To give a good translation, we need to know about the context. Is the speaker speaking to the mother, or to someone else?


There is no context. I was just given a sentence, and I need to add whatever translations fit it well, meaning both of your options are possible.
And this translation pair should be able to be used by Japanese speakers learning English and English speakers learning Japanese.


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## gengo

DJ_Saidez said:


> There is no context.



Since the speaker is using the word 弟 here, I am going to assume that he is not talking to his mother, because in Japanese the norm is to use a proper name when referring to one's younger siblings and speaking to a family member (as opposed to elder siblings, which are referred to with regular nouns).  Therefore, I'm assuming that the speaker is complaining to someone else about his mother.

お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんでしょ？

_My mother always treats my brother better, and pretty much ignores me, you know?_

There are many possible ways to translate this, and of course the correct translation will depend on the context, but the above is one possibility.  I rarely hear the word "dote" in casual speech.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

DJ_Saidez said:


> *お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんでしょ？*
> 
> _*My mom keeps doting on my little brother. Doesn't she love me anymore?* _ (less than 10% IMHP)
> 
> 
> *Mom, all you do is pay attention to my little brother. Don't you love me anymore?*(more than 90% IMHP)


（I'm talking about to whom this question is asking, and I'm not talking about the translations themselves.)


Without any more context, I decide that the speaker is a woman or at least her gender is female (an elderly sister of the 弟), speaking to her mother directly, not to someone else.
If the speaker is asking to someone else who can somehow know completely what her mother is thinking about, for example, an ESPer*, and at the same time, who is very close to her, for example, her mother's twin sister (one egg twin sister, who can understand completely each other in that fiction), the sentence can make sense.
If the speaker had been asking to an almighty god, she should have used 敬語, not ため口.
Therefore, the possibility of "someone else" must be very small or rare.
Using 弟 is quite natural when she is talking to her mother in this context.

This sentence adopts "a question" or at least "a question style rhetorically", so the answer can be made by someone who knows the answer. Therefore, I think this sentence should be asked to her mother in most of the cases. The only practically-possible scenario would be that she is complaining to her grandmother (the mother of her mother) .
I'm thinking about the scenario speaking to her father (the husband of the mother), yet, I still somehow feel it's less likely. 
..................................

_*My mom keeps doting on my little brother. Doesn't she love me anymore?* _
If I were that speaker, I would choose other expressions such as:
*お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんて**どうでもいいんだわ！*
*お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんだと思わない？
母はいつも弟ばかり可愛がって、私のことなどどうでもいいんです！*

*ESPer: someone who has extrasensory perception usually in science fictions


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## gengo

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Using 弟 is quite natural when she is talking to her mother.



You are the native speaker, but I don't recall hearing people use 弟 when talking to their mother.  I have always heard them use the brother's name, and often a nickname, such as "お母さんはいつも信（しん）ちゃんばかりかわいがって..."

However, assuming you are right, my translation would be:
_Mom, you always treat my little brother better, and pretty much ignore me._

Here, a more natural English sentence would use the brother's name, since a daughter would never refer to her "little brother" when speaking to her mother.  Also, I don't think the question mark should be translated in this context.



SoLaTiDoberman said:


> one egg twin sister



一卵性双生児:  identical twin(s)
二卵性双生児:  fraternal twin(s)

We don't say "one egg."


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Suppose that woman is complaining to her mother about the unfairness of the distribution of the mother's love to her two children, 弟 is a very good expression to use.
When I read the sentence, without any more context, I guess the followings:
She is probably a teenagers and her brother is almost the same age.
In her viewpoint, her brother is a competitor for getting the mother's love.
She asked if her mother is on her side or on his side.
In this context, her brother is an "enemy" or a "competitor," not someone whom she loves  or whom she feels very close to.
However, if she said it in an offensive or rude manner, for example くそ慎之介, she seems childish, for example, 5 or 6 years old.
If she said, シンちゃん, it conveys a familiarity toward her brother, which might not reflect her feeling.
弟 is such an objective word referring to her brother who is not on her side, in this context.
I think 弟 is the best choice when she is a teenagers, and her brother is a few years old younger than she.

Can "one egg twins" be understandable for a native English speaker who doesn't know Japanese, by the way?
  Thanks!


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## gengo

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> When I read the sentence, without any more context, I guess the followings:




Your guesses confirm how important context is in translation from J to E, because sometimes we need more information to fill in the blanks.



SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Can "one egg twins" be understandable for a native English speaker who doesn't know Japanese, by the way?



I'm not sure.  I understood it immediately, but that's probably because I speak Japanese.  I suppose educated people would make the connection, but they would have to stop and think about it, because we don't think about eggs when talking about twins in English.  I think it would be confusing to many English speakers.

By the way, we use "fraternal," which comes from the Latin word frater, or brother, even for twins that are one boy and one girl, or two girls.  Linguistic sexism, I suppose. (笑)

I guess a hearty breakfast would be 二卵ソーセージ.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

>>When I read the sentence, without any more context, I guess the followings:
>Your guesses confirm how important context is in translation from J to E, because sometimes we need more information to fill in the blanks.

Oops!
I'm sorry to say, but what I was getting at was almost the opposite.
I was influenced by the Japanese 謙譲表現 manner, which might confuse you.
If I were a native English speaker, I'd probably write something like this:
Even though some specific and unusual contexts could change its interpretation, it seems obvious that the speaker was talking to her mother by the sentence itself.

>I'm not sure. I understood it immediately, but that's probably because I speak Japanese. I suppose educated people would make the connection, but they would have to stop and think about it, because we don't think about eggs when talking about twins in English. I think it would be confusing to many English speakers.

Thank you for your feedback. I got it.

>Linguistic sexism, I suppose. 

"Sibling twin" might solve it.

>I guess a hearty breakfast would be 二卵ソーセージ. 

Almost 100% Japanese kids would say "一卵性ソーセージ" and "似らん（似てないの方言）性ソーセージ” a couple of times in their lives.
So does a Japanese learner!
hahaha


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## DJ_Saidez

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> _*My mom keeps doting on my little brother. Doesn't she love me anymore?* _
> If I were that speaker, I would choose other expressions such as:
> *お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんて**どうでもいいんだわ！*
> *お母さんはいつも弟ばかりかわいがって、私のことなんてどうでもいいんだと思わない？
> 母はいつも弟ばかり可愛がって、私のことなどどうでもいいんです！*
> 
> *ESPer: someone who has extrasensory perception usually in science fictions


仲いい友達と話す時に、まだ謙虚な言葉の「母」を使いますか？
When talking to, say, a close friend, would you still use a humble word as 母?


Never mind, I didn't notice the different formality levels of the other two.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

DJ_Saidez said:


> 仲いい友達と話す時に、まだ謙虚な言葉の「母」を使いますか？
> When talking to, say, a close friend, would you still use a humble word as 母?



たまに使います。
Basically no, but we still use it in some cases.

母はいつも弟ばかり可愛がって、私のことなどどうでもいいんです！
Generally speaking, this sentence is used in a more formal situation than other two.


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