# Nitrogen and Nature



## profsimon

Etymology of "nitrogen" and "nature". Arabic "ntr" to do with the structure of spiritual forces?


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## Ben Jamin

profsimon said:


> Etymology of "nitrogen" and "nature". Arabic "ntr" to do with the structure of spiritual forces?


Nitrogen comes from Greek nitron (sodium) and has nothing to do with the Latin word "natura", which in turn comes from "natus" (born), past participle of "nasci" (to be born), from PIE *gene- (to give birth, beget).
So you can see, no connection to Arabic "ntr" whatsoever.


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## rushalaim

I heard that the word _"Natrium"_ is derived from _Coptic_ *n*-*t*-*r *as if the name of _Ancient-Egyptian_ god. As if _Egyptian _priests used sodium during to their cult and thought it is the magical powder.
Natron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ben Jamin

rushalaim said:


> I heard that the word _"Natrium"_ is derived from _Coptic_ *n*-*t*-*r *as if the name of _Ancient-Egyptian_ god. As if _Egyptian _priests used sodium during to their cult and thought it is the magical powder.
> Natron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


How does it relate to Arabic? The Arabic alchemists called sodium and potassium "alkali".


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## fdb

Arabic naṭrūn نطرون and Aramaic nīṭrōn are loanwords from Greek νίτρον, which in turn is a borrowing from Egyptian.


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## origumi

Ntr as in Greek "nitron" is apparently attested in the Hebrew Bible, e.g. Jeremiah 2:22, Proverbs 25:20. Spelled נֶתֶר (H5427). So an Arabic cognate is not impossible, maybe both from Egyptian. See also etymonline for Nitre.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> So an Arabic cognate is not impossible, maybe both from Egyptian.


As fdb noted, the root of the Arabic word is not _ntr_ but _nTr_.

So, it is probably an indirect loan from other Afro-Asian languages via Greek but not a cognate.


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## rushalaim

Ben Jamin said:


> How does it relate to Arabic? The Arabic alchemists called sodium and potassium "alkali".


The word "alchemist" derived from Arabic with the meaning of "kemia" (magic) that is Egypt. ))
Alchemy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## origumi

berndf said:


> As fdb noted, the root of the Arabic word is not _ntr_ but _nTr_.
> So, it is probably an indirect loan from other Afro-Asian languages via Greek but not a cognate.


Let me rephrase: If originally Egyptian, Hebrew borrowed it earlier than the era of Greek influence. Arabic could have done the same. As a foreign word from a language that does not strictly honor the Semitic t/T distinction, Arabic and Hebrew could borrow it differently.

Added: according to this, Akkadian nit(i)ru is also from Egyptian, but the Arabic word is from Greek as fdb wrote.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> Let me rephrase: If originally Egyptian, Hebrew borrowed it earlier than the era of Greek influence. Arabic could have done the same. As a foreign word from a language that does not strictly honor the Semitic t/T distinction, Arabic and Hebrew could borrow it differently.


This is self-contradictory. If the loan is not via Greek but direct from Egyptian then there is no language involved that doesn't "honor the Semitic t/T distinction".


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## rushalaim

*origumi*, do the name of the rabbi have connection to the word _"natrium"_?
Natronai ben Hilai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## origumi

berndf said:


> This is self-contradictory. If the loan is not via Greek but direct from Egyptian then there is no language involved that doesn't "honor the Semitic t/T distinction".


Egyptian. Arabs and Israelites could hear differently the Egyptian t/T.



rushalaim said:


> Do the name of the rabbi have connection to the word _"natrium"_?
> Natronai ben Hilai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I couldn't find the etymology of נטרונאי natronai. It cannot be related to Hebrew  ntr נתר (discussed in this thread) because containing ט rather than ת. Can it be related to the Aramaic pronunciation of nTr (= "nitron"), with ט (as fdb wrote above)? Well, my first guess for Natronai's etymology would be root נטר nTr = "to guard" (in Aramaic, borrowed by Hebrew side by side with the native נצר, exists also in Arabic).


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## berndf

origumi said:


> Egyptian. Arabs and Israelites could hear differently the Egyptian t/T.


Exactly. The shift from Egyptian t to Arabic T would not be plausible, if it were a direct loan and not an indirect one via Greek.

It is now practically consensus view that Egyptian had the emphatic vs. non-emphatic distinction. An old and direct loan from Egyptian would have respected that. The representation of ordinary stops as emphatics is typical for Greek or Latin loans into Aramaic to avoid ambiguities because of the intervocalical and final spirantization in Aramaic.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> I couldn't find the etymology of נטרונאי natronai. It cannot be related to Hebrew  ntr נתר (discussed in this thread) because containing ט rather than ת. Can it be related to the Aramaic pronunciation of nTr (= "nitron"), with ט (as fdb wrote above)? Well, my first guess for Natronai's etymology would be root נטר nTr = "to guard" (in Aramaic, borrowed by Hebrew side by side with the native נצר, exists also in Arabic).


You mentioned Jeremiah 2:22. I've found:
_Hebrew_ *נתר* corresponds to _Aramaic_-targum *נתרא*
Though _"natrium"_ _Aramaic_ is *נטרון*
As concerns to _"Natronai"_-name, _Aramaic_ is *נטרונא* with the meaning _"avenger"_.
Category:Natron (hieroglyph) - Wikimedia Commons


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## origumi

berndf said:


> The shift from Egyptian t to Arabic T would not be plausible, if it were a direct loan and not an indirect one via Greek.


OK, this is consistent with the t ת in Akkadian nitiru, apparently also an ancient (pre-Greek) borrowing.




rushalaim said:


> _Hebrew_ *נתר* corresponds to _Aramaic_-targum *נתרא*


This can be Judeo-Aramaic. That is, influenced by Hebrew and varies from "standard" Aramaic.



> As concerns to _"Natronai"_-name, _Aramaic_ is *נטרונא* with the meaning _"avenger"_.


Which can be derived from root נטר = "to guard", as mentioned above.


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## berndf

origumi said:


> OK, this is consistent with the t ת in Akkadian nitiru, apparently also an ancient (pre-Greek) borrowing.


Yes, this suggests that it is not cognate to Arabic nTr although it may share a common Egyptian origin.


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## profsimon

rushalaim said:


> I heard that the word _"Natrium"_ is derived from _Coptic_ *n*-*t*-*r *as if the name of _Ancient-Egyptian_ god



Indeed. I was wrong to have linked my query to the Arabic and now remember having seen "ntr" in a Coptic language text. The notion that came across is that ntr (plural?) are present in nitrogen (i.e. c. 80% of the air us Earth creatures breathe).
I somehow recall the word "netera" in another Coptic next, which is what provoked the inquiry. Surely Nature is a sufficiently majestic concept to merit some meaningful corresponding etymology?
Of course, this doesn't run counter at all the concept of guarding, or even avenging, Mother Nature.

Thanks for helpful comments.


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## rushalaim

profsimon said:


> Etymology of "nitrogen" and "nature". Arabic "ntr" to do with the structure of spiritual forces?


The word _"Natron"_ (_soda_) an egyptologist pronounces like _"Necherit"_ with _ch_-sound in a word _"child"_. Are Egyptian _"Necherit"_ and English _"nature"_ sound similar?


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