# Etymology of "Balkans"



## noychoh

Does anybody know the etymology of "Balkans"? and could cite any good source of information about it?

The information in various national Wikipedias contradict each other - soem say it coms form Turkish word for "rock" or "mountain", another say it comes from Turkish word for "wood" ("mountains covered with wood"). 

This latter could correspond to the etymology of "balcony" or "balagan" as proto-indo-european "something wooden" - maybe via Turkish (see: the meaning of "balagan" at the website of Steven's Balagan org uk). Do you have any comments thereupon?


Recently when I was on trip to Bulgaria and Serbia the guide told us that the word Balkan comes from Turkish "bal" = honey + "kan" = blood (as in: "here you will obtain honey but this will require blood from you")
(and he insisted on it, as having based himself on the book that is not accessible to me, a collection of scholarly papers which he called "Thirteen hundred years of history of Bulgaria" or something similar; I cannot find it in the university library catalogue).

I doubted it - it resembles too mych a folk etymology. I don't even know if in Turkish there are two words like "bal" and "kan" with such meanings, but it seemed doubtful to me if Turkish language could have such word-formations. 

Has anybody heard about that latter theory?


regards

noychoH


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## sokol

"Balkan" still means, in modern Turkish (according to my dictionary), "wooded mountain chain", that is not the Balkan mountains or the Balkan peninsula but a noun for this concept.
If you want to refer to the Balkan as a geographical region in Turkish (again, according to my dictionary - I don't speak a word of Turkish ;-) you need the word _Balkanlar_ (with -lar being a pluraliser suffix, i. e. meaning literally "the Balkans" or something like that and standing for the Balkans as a region).

I think it is clear that the etymology is Turkish, and that it is a very simple geographical name for a wooded mountain chain.
All these other etymologies you mention seem to be very clearly popular etymologies.

(Oh, and welcome to WRF!)


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## Kanes

On Bulgarian it means the same thing.


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## noychoh

Thanks a lot for your answers. I was sure "Honey and blood" would be too fantastic.

noychoH


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## Maroseika

This soruces confirm tha the word in Turclanguages means "mountain chain"
www.vasmer.narod.ru
www.etymonline.com


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## noychoh

Thanks for these links. I have learned something new there.

Although in fact the second one quoted by you is too concise (laconic, almost close to enigmatic) and the first one quoted by you (Fasmer, letter B - p. 031) quoting the names of 2 mountains in Turkmenistan does not solve my doubts. 

Yes, I accept that now in Turkic it means mountains, but some claim that it means "mountains covered with wood" which could make it somehow related to "balk" which is visible in "balcony" and in Russian "balagan" (wooden house), being a borrowing from Turkic, but in Turkic again being a borrowing from Persian/Iranian (see the Fasmer (Vasmer???) dictionary quoted p. 029, although with a bit dfferent explanation), so of PIE origin. 

I am basing my understaning thereof i.a. on N.M.Shanskiy, V.V.Ivanov, T.V. Shanskaya, Kratkiy etimologicheskiy slovar' russkogo yazyka, Moskva, Prosveshchenie 1975, p. 33-34, under "balagan", "balkon" and "balka" (there is no wrod "Balkany" there). The last one says: sr. tyurksk. _bulak_ - "gryaznyy potok, rodnik", _balkan_ - "krutye gory porosshye lesom". 

and also on William Morris (ed.) "The Heritage Illustrated Dictionary of the English Language. International Edition", American Heritage Publishing Co. Inc. - Houghton Mifflin Company - McGraw-Hill International Book Company: Boston (etc.) 1969, 1973, p. 101 (no etymology under "Balkan", good etymology under "balcony" and in the appendix - under the PIE *bhelg/bhelk, and also *bherdh p. 1509 

Turkmenistan in fact is a place where such borrowing from Persian could easily take place. 

Is this Turkic word (root: *balkan for "mountains") attested also in other Altaic languages? Or only in Turkmenistan and Anatolyan Turkish?


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## Maroseika

noychoh said:


> (see the Fasmer (Vasmer???)


Max Vasmer was German.



> N.M.Shanskiy, V.V.Ivanov, T.V. Shanskaya, Kratkiy etimologicheskiy slovar' russkogo yazyka, Moskva, Prosveshchenie 1975, p. 33-34


I'd like to warn your of giving too much confidence to this dictionary, because it was just mainly compiled from other sources and mostly - from the Vasmer's dictionary. It contains a number of mistakes and confusion.


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## noychoh

Thanks for correcting the name of Vasmer (having always read it only in Cyrillic Russian, before having seen the link to the dictionary, I have always spelled it "Fasmer")

Thak you also for the warning. It's interesting however that what Vasmer writes and what Shanskiy et al. write in this contex - is NOT the same information. 

Up til yesterday [when I have downloaded full Vasmer] I only had that one (as far as Russian etymological dictionaries concerned) and volumes III and IV of Vasmer (printed) and vol. 15 (L'etina-Lokach') only of Etimologicheskiy slovar' slavyanskih yazykov by O.N. Trubachev (M. 1988). I also have some parts of some Polish etymological dictionaries (but none of them with letter "B"). 

The Mafred Mayrhofer's _Kurzgefasstes Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen_, of which our University Library had only vol. 1, has been stolen from the library. No Turkic dictionary is available here (apart from a very short one of modern Turkish, maybe good for tourists and businessmen/merchants, but not for research). Anyhow my "research" is only a hobby. 

Regards


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## Maroseika

There is another Russian etym. dict. by Pavel Chernykh (Черных) - less in volume than the Vasmer's but more recent, though not complete - his author died in 1970. Unfortunately there is no балка there...

As for the Turc dict. I have a Tuvinian one (only letters А-Л are published so far) and there is no балк... at all.

However according to the Etym. dict. of Iranian languages it is possible that Prairanian IE *bhel-k > *barsa/*balsa > Ancient English balca, Greek falkes (beam, log).

But I'd rather assume then Iranian origin of the name Balkan, which looks rather evident when reading this dictionary:
*barz has 2 rather close groups of meanings:
1. height, length 
2. bulge, swelling
These generated the following in different languages:

1.
Hittite par-aktaru - to rise
Armenian berj - height
German berg - mountain
Russian берег - river bank (<abrupt bank)
Ossetin barz - heap, pile
Tajik Badaxsan/Balaxsan - mountain region of Badakhshan (Afganistan, Tajikistan).

2.
Ancient Irish bolgaim - threshold
Ancient High Dutch balg - skin, swollen skin
Lithuanian balnas - pillow > saddle
Serbian blazina - pillow
Russian болозень - callosity 
Slovenian blazina - rafter

Also from (1):
*brzant - long < Praind. brhant - high, big, strong, loud.
This word gave the name for Brigantes (Gaul tribe) and Brigit - Ancient Irish female name.


Therefore Balkan - high place < Iranian seems to me the most likely.


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## aeneas dardanus

Historically,
the notion "Balkan[s]" came out of nowhere.

"Balkan"
is a coined term unheard before the XX-th century.

The
original place on earth known to the history of our western civilisation was a
Thracian mountain peak known as (gr) *Aimos*;
or (lat) *Haemus*.

The
etymon "haem" means "red" or "blood" or both:
"blood-red".


The
Turkish name [for the region surrounding this mountain peak of Haemus visible
from the Turkish shores] "Balkan" is a direct translation of its
original name since antiquity into Turkish.


This
compound word *bal*+*kan*; which literally mean: 
1.*bal **: honey*; 
2. *kan* [red, blood-red] : *reddish*;
yields a color that this mountain peak reflects when viewed form the Turkish
coast especially in the morning.

The
first part of the compound in case that it isn't a foreign loan word means exactly
"honey", meaning that the word balkan reflects exactly the a "honey-red"colour.

 The Turkish word used for "mountain" is *dağ*, let me recall the name of:* Dagestan *than you try recall its meaning.
Therefore a Turkish verb Balkan for denoting a country of some sort, would have to be a Balkanistan. But such a notion did never exist in Turkish realm, which makes it undoubtedly a forged notion and a late XIX century political invention.

Regarding
the fact that at least 90% of all places in Turkey, have either preserved their
original names or got corrupted by Turkish native speakers or at certain cases
when the original meaning of the place name was known, got translated, we can
claim and without any reserves that the name of the today Bulgarian mountain
peak and the region of Bulgaria are the only region in the world which can be
regarded as Balkan, and that its name is a direct translation of the old
ancient traditional name of Mount Haemus by Turkish newcomers.

Balkan
mountains are terminated by Rodopes. Nothing westward from this terminus point
can be considered as a "Balkan region" any further.

It's afake 
coined term; a forged political concept towards deletion of the original
historical name and concept of Illyricum; the northern part of the true historical
Europe.

Until late XIX and early XX century - the term Illyricum; its concept and legacy was
so strong that even Serbian language was "erroneously" regarded as
Illyrian.

Historically,
the term "Balkan" came out of nowhere. Especially its concept.


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## DenisBiH

> It's afake coined term; a forged political concept




I don't know how old the name is, but the modern region more or less follows the geographical extent of the European part of an Eastern Mediterranean empire, either this or that. That's at least a thousand years of belonging to the same political/cultural sphere. Before the late 19th/early 20th century it would have been called "European Turkey", and before the 15th century who knows what.


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## aeneas dardanus

DenisBiH said:


> I don't know how old the name is, but the modern region more or less follows the geographical extent of the European part of an Eastern Mediterranean empire, either this or that.


 
Because of the fact that imperial Turks never used the term "Balkans" for anything at all except for the "Mount Haem" - it is neither this nor that. - This realm was, and still is referred to as RUM [Rumelia] especially by older generations of Turks who never heard the term 'Balkan' before TV came out.



> That's at least a thousand years of belonging to the same political/cultural sphere. Before the late 19th/early 20th century it would have been called "European Turkey", and before the 15th century who knows what.


 
But of course it wasn't and it is not!
It was called Illyria and documented as Illyricum prefecture, while the so called Balkan was a central part of Tracia, that is the Thrace. When the Illyrian Emperor Diocletian divided the Empire into four districts [prefectures] it looked like this:






the Thrace (alias "Balkan") was not a part of the Illyrian "Northern Empire" at all, since it was a part of "Oriental prefecture" known as Oriens, eventhough Thrace retained its name until late Renesance. 

It was his successor fellow saint Constantine who merged the Prefecture of Oriens and founded "Nova Roma" that is Constantinople. Moreover, the cultural unity only lasted until the cataclysmic destruction of his homeland Dardania (512 AD earthquake) followed by "little ice age" the great famine (516-518 AD) than the plague which shipped with imported grains from Egypt; leaving only 1 survivor out of 10, not to mention barbarian Slavic and Avar hordes taking advance of it which made it all the way down to Morea with Avars reaching even Crete -with it, - marking the end of Late Antiquity and causing the Dark Ages. Nothing was the same anymore. Nothing was bright anymore. And especially not belonging to the same culture anymore -since there was no culture at all. The following Dark Ages are times of devastating mutiny and inequality in every direction. Christianity fell into its vicious circle debates and blood thistly conflicts on "what is the nature of Christ" and started killing each other while barbarians of all kinds and with so many names were taking down every standing city on their path. A circus that lasted no less than 500 houdred years. Than came Mongols, Tatars, Hunes, crusaders, Seljuks who were first fighting in the name of Rum, but than the grew in power and chose Judaic faith, etc etc. 
What "belonging"; what"same"; which "politcs/culture" or what Sphere? Ethnical!(tatars bulgars avars hunes goths alans visigoths longobards...) Religious! Which party katholic othodox heterodox monophysite bogumil, franciscan judeist sunite shiit sufi....) Politics! (just dont mention it) Culture =x.
I couldn't disagree more.  There was absolutely nothing in common between people of Illyricum anymore.
And yes Turks used to call themselves  "Kayser-i iklim-i Rum not Balkanasi!

Nope, the term "Balkan" did never exist!


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## Frank06

> Nope, the term "Balkan" did never exist!


Here we go again: whether or not the original question is answered (and it is, imho), the Balkan tribes are unleashing themselves once again for a politically motivated joyride through crypto-history. Hooray!


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## DenisBiH

> Because of the fact that imperial Turks never used the term "Balkans" for anything at all except for the "Mount Haem" - it is neither this nor that. - This realm was, and still is referred to as RUM [Rumelia] especially by older generations of Turks who never heard the term 'Balkan' before TV came out.




Rumelia was indeed, along with Anatolia, one of two original Ottoman provinces, but already by 1609 it no longer referred to the whole of the European part of the Ottoman Empire.

By 1609 you had, in Europe:



> Rumelia (Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece, Serbia, Albania, Montenegro, Turkey) - established 1365
> Cezayir (Aegean archipelago)
> Bosnia Eyalet (modern Bosnia-Herzegovina, parts of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro) - established c. 1520
> Buda (Hungary, Croatia, Serbia) - established 1541
> Eger Eyalet (Hungary, Slovakia) - established 1596
> Kanizsa Eyalet (Hungary, Croatia) - established 1600
> Silistria Eyalet (Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine) - established c. 1599
> Temeşvar Eyalet (Romania, Serbia, Hungary) - established 1552


 



> But of course it wasn't and it is not!
> It was called Illyria and documented as Illyricum prefecture, while the so called Balkan was a central part of Tracia, that is the Thrace.



Yes, and how something that existed in Roman times and late antiquity prior to all the population movements could be more rather than less important than what I mentioned?

Do you consider Bato's revolt as also being of paramount importance for the definition of modern geopolitical regions in SE Europe? Or perhaps the mischief of Illyrians serving in the Praetorian Guard (didn't they burn Rome down once or some such?)




> Nothing was the same anymore. Nothing was bright anymore.




Oh I don't know. Some say that the region peaked during the Neolithic and that it's been all downhill since then, except maybe for the Greeks. Puh-lease.



> What "belonging"; what"same"; which "politcs/culture" or what Sphere? Ethnical!(tatars bulgars avars hunes goths alans visigoths longobards...) Religious! Which party katholic othodox heterodox monophysite bogumil, franciscan judeist sunite shiit sufi....) Politics! (just dont mention it) Culture =x.
> I couldn't disagree more.  There was absolutely nothing in common between people of Illyricum anymore.
> And yes Turks used to call themselves  "Kayser-i iklim-i Rum not Balkanasi!




And yet when you scratch under those national, ethnic and religious identities, you find much the same mentality all around the Balkans. That is precisely why the term is powerful, it unlike some others has no specific national, ethnic or religious associations and yet manages to break down all those supposed civilizational/religious barriers within the Balkans and put a name to what can only be described as deep cultural unity, acknowledged or not. I may not speak the language, but if I learned it, I'd have much much less trouble fitting in, say, Greece or Bulgaria, than in most other parts of the world, religion and ethnicity notwithstanding.

Even the desire to "flee" the Balkans geographically is very much a Balkanic thing. As the Bosnian singer Pirelli said it in his song "Esterreich" about such emotions:


> Zagreb, Belgrad, Tuzla, ganz Balkan,
> das ist nicht die Heimat wo ich herkam
> Alpen, Berge und der weiße Schnee;
> das ist meine Heimat, da tut mein Herz nicht weh…




And we are way off topic, anyway. Moderators can do with this post as they like.


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## aeneas dardanus

Frank06 said:


> Here we go again: whether or not the original question is answered (and it is, imho),


Undoubtedly,
*"Balkan"* *= "Haemus"* in Turkish. 


> the Balkan *tribes* are unleashing themselves once again for a politically motivated joyride through crypto-history. Hooray!


Well, that was rude. You don't know me.
Are you a chef of some tribe that doesn't agree with that fact?! The truth can never be reached with consensus since that act makes it false! What tribe do you belong to? Do you have anything of interest to add to this fact?
"(and it is, imho)" since when does the truth care of our acceptance, or particularly yours?

You asked (unhappy with folk etyms) for the true meaning  - here is the answer. If you are not happy with it, feel free to start crying. But please don't cal me names, because, if you care to know -when my "tribe" was taking hot baths, your tribe was busy inventing the fire.

Anyway,
Me, feel nice, talking to you.


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## berndf

aeneas dardanus said:


> Historically,
> the notion "Balkan[s]" came out of nowhere.
> 
> "Balkan"
> is a coined term unheard before the XX-th century....


Actually 19th, not 20th century (example); but never mind.

*Moderator note: We all agree that term and notion of a "Balkan peninsula" a modern Western one. In this thread we are concerned with the history of that name. NOT within the scope of this discussion are:
1) whether or not it makes sense from a cultural and political point of view to regard the Balkans as a one region;
2) whether or not and if so which other terms should be applied;
3) how the region was dived in pre-Byzantine times... or in pre-Ottoman time, for that matter.

We did allow the thread to go a bit off-topic because it is interesting background information to know that concept and term are not uncontested. The point has now been made and I would ask everyone to stop discussing politics here.*


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## apmoy70

aeneas dardanus said:


> ...The
> etymon "haem" means "red" or "blood" or both:
> "blood-red".
> ...


Actually,  the etymology of the Greek «αἷμα» ('hǣmă)--> _blood_, and «Αἷμος» ('Hǣmŏs)--> _the Balkan mountain_, is virtually *unknown*, there are a couple of suggestions for them however:
1/ From the verb «ἵημι» (hĭēmĭ)--> _to throw, hurl, shoot_; «αἷμα» is what flows from the open wound as a result of a hit/hurl/shot 
2/ From the rare verb «αἰονάω» (æŏ'nāō)--> _to moisten, foment_

«Αἷμος» could simply mean the "misty mountain" if we accept the 2nd suggestion as valid


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## Sulius

*<Comment deleted by moderator; explained by PM>
*


apmoy70 said:


> Actually,  the etymology of the Greek «αἷμα» ('hǣmă)--&gt; <em>blood</em>, and «Αἷμος» ('Hǣmŏs)--&gt; <em>the Balkan mountain</em>, is virtually <strong>unknown</strong>



Unknown to whom? Virtual to whom? Has anybody else in this planet, beside myself apparently, heard of ordinary terminologies such as  'haemophilia', 'haemoglobin', 'haematologia' and on and on; all referring to blood, all deriving from the virtually known Greek "haem" ? 



> ....there are a couple of suggestions for them however:
> 1/ From the verb «ἵημι» (hĭēmĭ)--&gt; <em>to throw, hurl, shoot</em>; «αἷμα» is what flows from the open wound as a result of a hit/hurl/shot <br>
> 2/ From the rare verb «αἰονάω» (æŏ'nāō)--&gt; <em>to moisten, foment</em>
> 
> «Αἷμος» could simply mean the "misty mountain" if we accept the 2nd suggestion as valid



Where did this etymological derivation came from? How do you connect the above with the term Balkan? 
Amidst other things, why it cannot be «ἵημι» but it can be «αἷμα» is that "Kan" in Turkish does not mean "Yell" or "Roar" or "Cheeze". Nor does any syllable off the turkish word Balkan has any correlation to your suggested possibilities. 

 Applying your methodology (also suggested above by Mr. The Moderator) we may easily maintain that DACIA (-ns), the aclaimed predecessors of the Romanians, derives from DAXIA or TA-HSIA in Chinese, because it sounds just about right.


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## apmoy70

Sulius said:


> *<Comment deleted by moderator; explained by PM>
> *
> 
> 
> Unknown to whom? Virtual to whom? Has anybody else in this planet,  beside myself apparently, heard of ordinary terminologies such as   'haemophilia', 'haemoglobin', 'haematologia' and on and on; all  referring to blood, all deriving from the virtually known Greek "haem" ?


I think you misunderstood. I was referring to aeneas dardanus' post where he was more that "certain" and explained to us with certitude that this "hǣm-" part means red, reddish. I answered to him that unfortunately, the etymology for either «αἷμα» or «Αἷμος» is obscure and it definetely does not have any relation to the colour red (see my post #17).



Sulius said:


> Where did this etymological derivation came from? How do you connect the above with the term Balkan?
> Amidst other things, why it cannot be «ἵημι» but it can be «αἷμα» is  that "Kan" in Turkish does not mean "Yell" or "Roar" or "Cheeze". Nor  does any syllable off the turkish word Balkan has any correlation to  your suggested possibilities.
> 
> Applying your methodology (also suggested above by Mr. The Moderator)  we may easily maintain that DACIA (-ns), the aclaimed predecessors of  the Romanians, derives from DAXIA or TA-HSIA in Chinese, because it  sounds just about right.


I really do not know how the Turkish name Balkan came to describe firstly the mountain range and secondly the whole peninsula. All I know is that if -according to aeneas dardanus again- Balkan means honey, red-blood or reddish, then IMHO the name does not derive from the Greek «Αἷμος» because they do not mean/describe the same concept.
My sources have been "G. Babiniotis-Lexicon of the Modern Greek  Language" and "J.B. Hofmann-Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Griechischen".
And if I may add, I do not like your patronizing tone at all.


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## mataripis

i heard "Balkan Peninsula" . I want to ask, any idea or written in history that the balkan areas were the place of wealthy people long time ago? If positive, Balkan is very close to word "lakan" meaning aristrocat people. The 'Ba' is equivalent to "Bar' ,meaning "known as" or "well known for". Maybe, Balkan may have the meaning, the place well known for wealthy people. The second meaning for "Kan" is food or to eat. You said that "Bal" means honey and this may give the phrase " honey as food or something to eat"


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## itreius

mataripis said:


> i heard "Balkan Peninsula" . I want to ask, any idea or written in history that the balkan areas were the place of wealthy people long time ago? If positive, Balkan is very close to word "lakan" meaning aristrocat people. The 'Ba' is equivalent to "Bar' ,meaning "known as" or "well known for". Maybe, Balkan may have the meaning, the place well known for wealthy people. The second meaning for "Kan" is food or to eat. You said that "Bal" means honey and this may give the phrase " honey as food or something to eat"


Why would it be related to a Filipino word?


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## berndf

mataripis said:


> Balkan is very close to word "lakan" meaning aristrocat people.


In Turkish? Can you give a source for it?


mataripis said:


> The 'Ba' is equivalent to "Bar' ,meaning "known as" or "well known for".


Same question here.


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## mataripis

berndf said:


> In Turkish? Can you give a source for it?
> Same question here.


  The source is old/archaic Tagalog (not used anymore in daily conversations).Don't say Filipino.(a modernized form). I am suggesting that the meaning of "BALKAN" might be related to these words if there was a historic event that the mentioned area was the place of wealthy people/ the land of honey. Tagalog is here in the southeast Asia but i am suspecting that it has the words that came from India and Persia!


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## Sulius

apmoy70 said:


> I think you misunderstood. I was referring to aeneas dardanus' post where he was more that "certain" and explained to us with certitude that this "hǣm-" part means red, reddish. I answered to him that unfortunately, the etymology for either «αἷμα» or «Αἷμος» is obscure and&lt;strong&gt; it definetely does not have any relation &lt;/strong&gt;to the colour red (see my post #17)



How do you explain then the word 'hematite' ~haimatī́tēs lithós? The hematite is an ancient stone, well known and revered between romans, for the message associated with its blood-y red color. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Similarly, the word 'leukocyte' derives from a comparable concept, the clear/white color. Further more, the peninsula glooms with local names derived from colors such as the "Red Mountain" (a lot of iron ore there), 'Facekuq' etc, indicating this particular adjective ( redish ) as not not being out of the ordinary.

You maintained in "absolute definitivity and certainty" that 'haem/o' has no relation to color. Where do you base your certainty, aside from being a Greek and having first hand knowledge on an assumed Greek word? Your comments truthfully relate that in the current use or knowledge  the root 'hemato' designates blood alone. Nothing more or less. This easy assessment can be made whomever person with an average knowledge of Greek. It is not the etymological analysis one expects to see in this disscussion board.



> I really do not know how the Turkish name Balkan came to describe firstly the mountain range and secondly the whole peninsula. All I know is that if -according to aeneas dardanus again- Balkan means honey, red-blood or reddish, then IMHO the name does not derive from the Greek «Αἷμος» because they do not mean/describe the same concept.
> My sources have been "G. Babiniotis-Lexicon of the Modern Greek  Language" and "J.B. Hofmann-Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Griechischen".&lt;br&gt;<br>
> And if I may add, I do not like your patronizing tone at all.



Fair enough. My sources are based in Royal Geographical Society, The Geographical Journal, Vol XXVIII : 
"The main range of the Balkans which gives its name to the Peninsula is known to the Turks as Khoja Balkan..."



> And if I may add, I do not like your patronizing tone at all.



I suggest you buy a mirror.


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## berndf

mataripis said:


> Tagalog is here in the southeast Asia but i am suspecting that it has the words that came from India and Persia!


Can you substantiate this? Interpreting an Ottoman-Turkish words based on absolutely nothing else than a vague phonetic similarity to a language of the completely unrelated Austronesian group needs an awful lot of substantiation to gain any credibility.


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## apmoy70

Sulius said:


> How do you explain then the word 'hematite' ~haimatī́tēs lithós? The hematite is an ancient stone, well known and revered between romans, for the message associated with its blood-y red color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, the word 'leukocyte' derives from a comparable concept, the clear/white color. Further more, the peninsula glooms with local names derived from colors such as the "Red Mountain" (a lot of iron ore there), 'Facekuq' etc, indicating this particular adjective ( redish ) as not not being out of the ordinary.


The name for the hematite mineral, definetely derives from «αἷμα» because it has this scarlet/dark red colour. Again though, hematite derives from hæma and not the other way round, it doesn't contribute to the etymology of «αἷμα».


Sulius said:


> You maintained in "absolute definitivity and certainty" that 'haem/o' has no relation to color. Where do you base your certainty, aside from being a Greek and having first hand knowledge on an assumed Greek word? Your comments truthfully relate that in the current use or knowledge  the root 'hemato' designates blood alone. Nothing more or less. This easy assessment can be made whomever person with an average knowledge of Greek. It is not the etymological analysis one expects to see in this disscussion board.


Yes, and I insist that "hæm-" has nothing to do with the red/reddish colour, due to the presence of words as derivations from this stem, that describe completely different things than blood, and have similarly unclear etymology, e.g. «αἱμασιὰ» (hæmāsī'ă, _f._)--> _wall of stones, stones of the walls of a city or fortress_; how does one arrive from «αἷμα» to «αἱμασιὰ» if the origin of «αἷμα» etymologically is its colour?    


Sulius said:


> I suggest you buy a mirror.


Now you are just being childish


----------



## DenisBiH

mataripis said:


> The source is old/archaic Tagalog (not used anymore in daily conversations).Don't say Filipino.(a modernized form). I am suggesting that the meaning of "BALKAN" might be related to these words if there was a historic event that the mentioned area was the place of wealthy people/ the land of honey. Tagalog is here in the southeast Asia but i am suspecting that it has the words that came from India and Persia!



My experience of SE Asia is limited to Malaysia (although I did work with a Filipino guy there for a year or so) and yes they do have some Sanskrit loanwords that could have cognates here (apart from later Portuguese, Dutch and English loanwords and "internationalisms"), as well as some Arabic loanwords which also exist here. So it may not be strange at all if some words were related, but I don't think anything specific to some Balkans interaction.

According to Wikipedia the name "Balkan" is first attested in Europe in 1490, but it doesn't seem to have spread in literary use, at least in English, until late 18th and early 19th century.. There was some Ottoman involvement in Aceh politics starting from, I believe, the 16th century, that could conceivably have brought SE Asia inhabitants in contact with the term, but I don't know of any borrowings in SE Asian languages due to that particular interaction. In any case, Ottoman administration and military were heavily staffed by Balkans natives at the time of that expedition; in fact the Grand Vizier in 1565 when the expedition took place would have been Mehmed-paša Sokolović, a native of eastern Bosnia. But to reiterate, I don't know of any loanwords resulting from that.


----------



## Sulius

> apmoy70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The name for the hematite mineral, definetely derives from «αἷμα» because it has this scarlet/dark red colour. Again though, hematite derives from hæma and not the other way round, it doesn't contribute to the etymology of «αἷμα».
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and *I insist* that "hæm-" has nothing to do with the red/reddish colour, due to the presence of words as derivations from this stem, that describe completely different things than blood, and have similarly unclear etymology, e.g. «αἱμασιὰ» (hæmāsī'ă, _f._)--> _wall of stones, stones of the walls of a city or fortress_; how does one arrive from «αἷμα» to «αἱμασιὰ» if the origin of «αἷμα» etymologically is its colour?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How do you prove any of this? Obviously, the insitence does not amount to proof.
Click to expand...


----------



## apmoy70

Look, perhaps it's my fault because English is not my native language, I think in Greek and translate my thoughts into English, maybe it's me that got you puzzled:
1/ In ancient Greek, the name for the blood was «αἷμα» with obscure etymology; there are a couple of etymological suggestions for it (see post #17) but they are hypothetical.
2a/ «Αἷμα» used in compounds, produced numerous derivations, like hemophilia, hemoglobin, hematuria, hemorrhage etc. 
2b/ «Αἷμα» also produced derivative words in allusion to the blood's red pigment, like haematite, haemochrome etc.
3/ There are some words however, which are also regarded as derivations from «αἷμα», with likewise obscure etymology, like «Αἷμος», «αἱμασιὰ» etc.
IMHO there's a highly possibility that the name «Αἷμος» comes from the rare verb «αἰονάω» (æŏ'nāō)--> _to moisten, foment_, so that «Αἷμος» in reality describes something misty (Misty Mountain). 
Does that make sense?


----------



## ancalimon

It is true that Bal:honey and Kan:blood in Turkish but it probably has nothing to do with Balkans. It means wooded mountain in various Turkic dialects and I think it's related with balık: city (among polytheist Turks according to Mahmud of Kashgar who were most probably among the Ogur branch of the Turkic bod)It could also be related to "kalk:rise, get higher"The suffix "an" means "the one which ..."I think we should be trying to figure out what "~alk" means.

Kalkan: the one which rises. And also "shield" (cover, protection, guard)

A little detail to add to above information:

Koru: to guard, covered with plants (Belgrad comes to my mind)

Bağlık: consisting of gardens, yards.
Dağlık: consisting of mountains.

In modern Turkish almost nobody knows that Balkan:wooded mountain. So the word should belong to Russian Turks. (I hope that didn't come out politically incorrect) After all, they were here thosands of years before the Ottomans  Turks knew that Balkans existed.


----------



## Sulius

apmoy70 said:


> Look, perhaps it's my fault because English is not my native language, I think in Greek and translate my thoughts into English, maybe it's me that got you puzzled:
> 1/ In ancient Greek, the name for the blood was «αἷμα» with obscure etymology; there are a couple of etymological suggestions for it (see post #17) but they are hypothetical.
> 2a/ «Αἷμα» used in compounds, produced numerous derivations, like hemophilia, hemoglobin, hematuria, hemorrhage etc.
> 2b/ «Αἷμα» also produced derivative words in allusion to the blood's red pigment, like haematite, haemochrome etc.
> 3/ There are some words however, which are also regarded as derivations from «αἷμα», with likewise obscure etymology, like «Αἷμος», «αἱμασιὰ» etc.
> IMHO there's a highly possibility that the name «Αἷμος» comes from the rare verb «αἰονάω» (æŏ'nāō)--> _to moisten, foment_, so that «Αἷμος» in reality describes something misty (Misty Mountain).
> Does that make sense?



I understand that you do not believe the derivation from Blood to Red, but find highly probable that from Moist and Incite to Blood.


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## Sulius

What do you know on the persian world 'gHermez' somehow relating to hemipteraes and oak forests?


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## PaulQ

Having read the thread so far, and being no expert on Turkish, Greek or Tagalog, but having had the advantage of having seen the satellite photographs of the Balkans on Google Earth, I can say that by far the most likely explanation must be the Turkic "(Wooded) Mountains". 

Places that are named after their geographical characteristics are exceedingly common. As doctors say, "When you hear hoof beats, think 'horses' not 'zebras'."


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## Perseas

I would also agree with this interpretation:
_Balkans: probably from Turkic balkan "mountain."_
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Balkans


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## apmoy70

Sulius said:


> What do you know on the persian world 'gHermez' somehow relating to hemipteraes and oak forests?


Ghermez means red in Farsi, doesn't it?
Hemiptera comes from the Greek «ἡμίπτερα»; the prefix «ἡμι-» (hēmi-) has no relation to either «αἷμα» or ghermez, it comes from the PIE root *sēm-i-, meaning _half_, cognate to Old Saxon sām-, Old High German sāmi-, Latin sēmi-, Proto-Germanic *sēmi- etc
Don't know what you are trying to prove, you've lost me there


----------



## aeneas dardanus

sokol said:


> "Balkan" still means, in modern Turkish (according to my dictionary), "wooded mountain chain"


Yes, 
so does the word "Laika" (to the most of moderately educated people)
mean "The First Dog In Space".

Yet,
 the word "Laika" means simply a "Barker" just as initially did the word "Balkan" mean simply "reddish"
but a special reddish; a honey-blood mixture preparation that yields this special _shiny reddish color,_ 
a color which perfectly matches those haematite crystals seen here:
http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo213/drus_photos/Hematite.jpg

But,
there's absolutely no etymological support in Turkish language to associate the verb
"balkan" with the notion of "wooded mountain chain".

The sentence "Wooded Mountain Chain" to the verb "balkan" is exactly what "the first dog in space" is to "Laika", 
an etymologically irrelevant associated meaning to the phonology of some particular word.



berndf said:


> Actually 19th, not 20th century (example); but never mind.


I don't.
I'll quote myself: 
"a *forged* notion and a late *XIX* century political invention". And:
' "Balkan" is a coined term *unheard* before the *XX*-th century. 
Of course, other readers might know that there's a great gap between inventing some notion and actually using it. 




apmoy70 said:


> Actually,  the etymology of the Greek «αἷμα» ('hǣmă)--> _blood_, and «Αἷμος» ('Hǣmŏs)--> _the Balkan mountain_, is virtually *unknown
> *


I must agree. You probably don’t know about Gujarati either. 
Yet,
 there are more than 46 million people using it in their everyday life. Does this brilliant argument make Gujarati non existent?



> there are a couple of suggestions for them however:



New suggestions for an already resolved problem, are as always, very welcome.



> 1/ From the verb «ἵημι» (hĭēmĭ)--> _to throw, hurl, shoot_; «αἷμα» is what flows from the open wound as a result of a hit/hurl/shot



You mean wound? Or the other for instance English derivation: Aim, [target]; Yes derivations come in handy, we all know that Mountains such as Haem were also used for orientation. A refferential and other conditional meanings.
Of course «ἵημι» is a derivation of the root haem and of course it's derived notion should mean that: "_«αἷμα» is what flows from the open wound" ...
_


> 2/ From the rare verb «αἰονάω» (æŏ'nāō)--> _to moisten, foment_


A-ha, ...and what does this particular "moist" from the open wound represent? 
Oil?!
No, - it's blood.



> «Αἷμος» could simply mean the "misty mountain" if we accept the 2nd suggestion as valid



But regretfully we can't. Rare vs Popular for naming conventions is even rarer. That is - not a practice. 
 But the true problem is that æŏ'nāō has nothing to do with the etymon in discussion.



apmoy70 said:


> The name for the hematite mineral, definetely derives from «αἷμα» because it has this scarlet/dark red colour.



Good, I totally agree. But it's not from Greek, - it is Latin; a late vulgar Latin. "H" is there to remind you.



> Again though, hematite derives from hæma and not the other way round, it doesn't contribute to the etymology of «αἷμα».



And also
we are not resolving the etymology of the verb "haemus" or «αἷμα» but the origin of the name Balkans.
Just so to add to your confusion, - I will reveal the fact that first Mongolic tribes
in what is now called "Turkey" and later called Turks, came from steppes, - not earlier than X-XI century AD. 

Neither Turks nor Turkey existed before the western empires decided to leave that part of Europe out of old European realm.
And Turks didn't invent toponyms on their own, especially not the names of the most ancient places of Europe. In quite rare cases when they understood the meaning of these ancient place-names, they merely translated them from their original and (XI century) current meaning. And no, it's not from Greek, it's from vulgar Latin spoken in the late X-th century. 



> Yes, and I insist that "hæm-" has nothing to do with the red/reddish colour



But it does, and as you've already confirmed in written, it did.



> due to the presence of words as derivations from this stem, that describe completely different things than blood, and have similarly unclear etymology, e.g. «αἱμασιὰ» (hæmāsī'ă, _f._)--> _wall of stones, stones of the walls of a city or fortress_; how does one arrive from «αἷμα» to «αἱμασιὰ» if the origin of «αἷμα» etymologically is its colour?



That's another topic. You may start a thread on "haemus" etymology whenever you please. But I should also warn you that Greek has very little to do with its origins and of course its original etymology. In fact nothing, - since Greek is also an artificial _coine_. 
The a "uncertain and unclear etymology" remarks are just the ice-berg tip of the thruth about its real origins.
Haemus etymology, its morphemes and derivations can fill more than 100 pages alone. But as we already know we are not discussing the etymology of the verb 'haemos' but that of the verb 'balkan', which is in direct relation with turkish 'kan' of this compound word. 
In addition there is also a word "kan-a" which is most probably in direct relation with the turkish compound word part (bal)*kan*. A smelly preparate for dying hair - also reddish, - a hematite reddish colour.


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## Melaike

I don't know any Turkish toponym that was translated from another language.Besides Kana(Kına is the correct Turkish form) comes from ''Henna''


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## Sulius

Melaike said:


> I don't know any Turkish toponym that was translated from another language.Besides Kana(Kına is the correct Turkish form) comes from ''Henna''



You got it the other way around. No Turkish toponyms were translated from another language. It is the indigenous toponyms that were translated mot-a-mot into Turkish, or whatever conglomerate that was called later Turkish language. It may be henna nowadays. What does that prove?


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## Melaike

Sulius said:


> It is the indigenous toponyms that were translated mot-a-mot into Turkish,



Do you have any example ?
 İndigenous toponyms weren't translated to Turkish.They were converted to Turkish sounding names.


----------



## aeneas dardanus

Sulius said:


> It may be henna nowadays. What does that prove?


It proves that you are both wrong!
It was Turks who brought _kaena_ in Europe, _henna_ is just another trans-nationally, multiple corrupted word until it reached English speakers. If you are suggesting that medieval  word _Kaena_, comes from English into modern Turkish as Kına [kënaa], you must be joking and L.O.L behind your screens.


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## Melaike

aeneas dardanus said:


> It proves that you are both wrong!
> It was Turks who brought _kaena_ in Europe,



Henna is an Arabic loan in both Turkish and English.That word has nothing to do with Turkish ''Kan=blood''


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## aeneas dardanus

Melaike said:


> Henna is an Arabic loan in both Turkish and English.That word has nothing to do with Turkish ''Kan=blood''


Great -
but I don't see your point; unless you presume that the Turkish word
"kan" is also an Arabic loan-word.


----------



## Sulius

Melaike said:


> Hennais an Arabic loan in both Turkish and English.That word has nothing to do withTurkish ''Kan=blood''



Likewise you wrote that:



> Besides Kana(Kına is the correct Turkish form) comes from''Henna''


which should have made sense if the name in question was not Balkan but Balkina, or that blood could have other colors besides red. 
Applying the most basic logic, one would think that the first words of any language were on tangible items of the likes of stone, blood, hand, water. Later the meaning must have been expanded with their respective tangible and intagible attributes, such as red and liquid for the blood, or liquid, shapeless, and wet for the water and so on.

Somewhere in the beginning of this thread , I read that:


> 2. _*kan*_[red*, blood-red*] : *reddish*;


Thus far, I have seen only subjective objections to that thesis, which appears nevertheless quite plausible for the stated reasons.


----------



## berndf

aeneas dardanus said:


> It proves that you are both wrong!
> It was Turks who brought _kaena_ in Europe, _henna_ is just another trans-nationally, multiple corrupted word until it reached English speakers. If you are suggesting that medieval  word _Kaena_, comes from English into modern Turkish as Kına [kënaa], you must be joking and L.O.L behind your screens.


You know very well that both _henna _and _kına _are both derived from Arabic حِنَّاء. And if you don't then do five minutes of research before you post such nonsense.

The same is true here:





aeneas dardanus said:


> apmoy70 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The name for the hematite mineral, definetely derives from «αἷμα» because it has this scarlet/dark red colour.
> 
> 
> 
> Good, I totally agree. But it's not from Greek, - it is Latin; a late vulgar Latin. "H" is there to remind you.
Click to expand...

Again, five minutes of reading in just about any textbook about Classical Greek would have made it obvious to you that Latin _HAEMA_ (pronounced /haɪma/ in Republican times) is an accurate transliteration of Classical Attic _HAIMA _(also pronounced /haɪma/) where "H" represents a consonant and not a vowel (for your convenience see here).
______________________________________________________________



aeneas dardanus said:


> You  may start a thread on "haemus" etymology whenever you please. But I  should also warn you that Greek has very little to do with its origins  and of course its original etymology.


Here I have to agree with you. The association of _αἷμα_ and the colour _red_ definitely exist. If _αἷμα_originally means _red _and denotes _blood _because blood is red or if it is the other way round doesn't matter here. This Greek word is relevant only because we are discussion the possibility that _Balkan_ might be a translation of the Greek name of the maintain chain dating from Ottoman times and for that the etymology of the Ancient Greek word doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if the name _Αἷμος_ is etymologically related to _αἷμα_ at all or if it is, e.g., a Greek adaptation of a Thracian name of completely different etymology. To consider the merits of the hypothesis that _Balkan _is a literal translation of the Greek name of the mountain range, it only matters what people at the time the Ottomans conquered the area believed the Greek/Latin name to mean.


----------



## DenisBiH

> And Turks didn't invent toponyms on their own, especially not the names of the most ancient places of Europe.



The name of the capital of my country happens to be an Ottoman Turkish "invention", despite there being continuous settlement in the area since the Neolithic. Please refrain from spouting nonsense.


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## ancalimon

Like I said the word "Balkan" most probably does not belong to Ottoman Turks. But some other Turks. In my opinion a mixture between Russian and Turkic.


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## Angelo di fuoco

ancalimon said:


> Koru: to guard, covered with plants (Belgrad comes to my mind)



Sorry, the etymology of Belgrad is quite obvious and is no way related to Turkish. It just means "white fortress" or "white castle". The obsolete Hungarian name of the city is Nándorfehérvár, where "fehér" is "white" and "vár" "city" or "castle".
The etymological meaning of "grad" is actually "place surrounded by walls".


----------



## L'irlandais

Hello Angelo di fuoco,
Thanks for a timely correction, nice to see some members care about accuracy.
Much of this thread is riddled with such errors, but since most of them are completely off-topic I've avoided answering them.  (One such term for example ;  )





Maroseika said:


> ...Ancient Irish bolgaim - threshold...


In Old Irish bolgaim is a verb meaning I swell.  (Not quite off topic since the Balkans is a _swell_ place.)

While I'm at it ;  The mention of Ancient Irish is erroneous, since the earliest form of the language is known as Primitive Irish (or *Archaic Irish*) Gaeilge Ársa, preserved in relatively few Ogham inscriptions, most of which are found in my native region.  Ársa means Ancient, antique, archaic.  It's transition into Old Irish can be traced in writings from the 6th century onwards.

I find multiple Eastern European references to Ancient Irish, when in fact the quoted examples are of Old Irish words.  This is not just incorrect, but also misleading, as shown above.

ps :  It's a common error to confuse the Old Irish name Bríghid with the Swedish Bridget.  While the Irish word probaly is derived from brigh = strenght ;  the name of the godess of poetry in pagan Ireland, this cannot be taken as given.  Source :  Patrick Woulfe's _Irish names for children _(1923)


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## aeneas dardanus

berndf said:


> You know very well that both _henna _and _kına _are both derived from Arabic حِنَّاء. And if you don't then do five minutes of research before you post such nonsense.


Talking about nonsense
_"both henna and kına are both derived from Arabic حِنَّاء."
Of course w_e are all aware that English and Arabic had such intensive exchange in their communication that they are full of direct loan words, you know: for being such close neighbors and so. Not to forget Lawrence of Arabia. It is quite plausible that Turks, including Englishman took this Arabic word as a first-hand loan and not through a multiple mediators and corruptions. Love it.

This is all arguing for the sake of arguing 
because me mentioning that: 
"there is also a word "*kan-a*" which is most *probably in* direct *relation with *the *turkish* compound *word* part (bal)*kan*." as a possible candidate for further investigation 
is of no relevance at all - because the Turkish (word *kan)* alone, will suffice.



> The same is true here:Again, five minutes of reading in just about any textbook about Classical Greek would have made it obvious to you that Latin _HAEMA_ (pronounced /haɪma/ in Republican times) is an accurate transliteration of Classical Attic _HAIMA _(also pronounced /haɪma/) where "H" represents a consonant and not a vowel (for your convenience see here).



I don't think I'll have to see anything - since Greeks didn't use H in medieval times. 
And it is not a consonant, it's an aspirant guttural semi-sonant; eradicated by Greeks before the 5th century BC.
That's all you need to know.


> Here I have to agree with you. The association of _αἷμα_ and the colour _red_ definitely exist. If _αἷμα_originally means _red _and denotes _blood _because blood is red or if it is the other way round doesn't matter here. This Greek word is relevant only because we are discussion the possibility that _Balkan_ might be a translation of the Greek name of the maintain chain dating from Ottoman times and for that the etymology of the Ancient Greek word doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if the name _Αἷμος_ is etymologically related to _αἷμα_ at all or if it is, e.g., a Greek adaptation of a Thracian name of completely different etymology. To consider the merits of the hypothesis that _Balkan _is a literal translation of the Greek name of the mountain range, it only matters what people at the time the Ottomans conquered the area believed the Greek/Latin name to mean.



That's exactly what I'm talking about -You can not dive into a word etymology outside of its fixed historical context. Which is (in this case at least after) the X-XI century, (political, historical, cultural and lingual) situation. 

Therefore, 
according to this time in history the only etymology is the original name of _hemus mons_ its meaning and the special hematite colour 
which (in Turkish) can be exactly represented with the color mixture of honey and blood.
[[With thanks to Sulius: A honey and blood mixture resemblance of hematite crystals http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo213/drus_photos/Hematite.jpg picture.]]



ancalimon said:


> Like I said the word "Balkan" most probably does not belong to Ottoman Turks. But some other Turks. In my opinion a mixture between Russian and Turkic.


 
At some extent you may be right for the first part, but since there are some problems with the second, I'd like to ask you - why do you think so?


----------



## berndf

aeneas dardanus said:


> And it is not a consonant, it's an aspirant guttural semi-sonant; eradicated by Greeks before the 5th century BC.
> That's all you need to know.


You are confusing Ionic and Attic. Ionic indeed lost /h/ earlier. What we learn today as "Classical Greek" in school is Attic pronunciation with Ionic spelling as used in 4th century BC Athens.


aeneas dardanus said:


> according to this time in history the only etymology is the original name of _hemus mons_ its meaning and the special hematite colour
> which (in Turkish) can be exactly represented with the color mixture of honey and blood.


It also doesn't really matter if you take the Greek or the Latin version of the name. The Turks had more contact with Greek that with Latin so taking the Greek version is more obvious. But again, it doesn't matter: Knowledge about the Greek origin of Latin/Romance/learned words starting with _ha(e)m-_ and referring to reddish hues, as in _hematite_, was never lost; for all intends and purposes the Latin and Greek names of the mountain range are the same thing.

BUT: I can't see any convincing argument being put forward so far why  the Turkish name has to be a translation of the Greek/Latin name. The  etymology presented in dictionaries ("wooded mountains") seems no  better, no worse than the idea of a translation of the Greek/Latin name.  I'm sitting on the fence and very much like to hear a conclusive  argument.


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## DenisBiH

Something that is not directly related, but may be interesting. In Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian, and possibly other Slavic languages, there is a word, _gora_, which I've always found a bit strange because it can refer to both a mountain and a wooded region, and often refers to a _wooded mountain region_. There are plenty of such goras at least in the Western Balkans, one of them being Crna Gora, i.e. Montenegro. Some of the others are Skopska Crna Gora, Fruška Gora,  Zelengora and several Ravna Goras.


----------



## Sulius

berndf said:


> You are confusing Ionic and Attic. Ionic indeed lost /h/ earlier. What we learn today as "Classical Greek" in school is Attic pronunciation with Ionic spelling as used in 4th century BC Athens.



I find aeneas dardanus quotation rather correct. The loss of Heta happened in the proto-ionic-attic split, which can be placed at about 4 BCE conservatively. That was before the dissapearance of the digama, the qoppa and so on. If we are discussing HAEM-us, we must be cognisant of the fact that H was dropped before ae became e: in Attic. Thus, he is not confusing anything because the split of the Proto Greek into Ionic and Attic had not happened YET, all in the while when H was lost.

Says B. Samuels of UMD:



> _The first compensatory lengthening, also a Proto-Attic-Ionic change, involved loss of  (derived from Proto-Greek *s and *j) in certain sequences. The [a:] created by the first compensatory lengthening did feed  __into the [a:] > [æ:] change, so it must have occurred prior to any of the other changes we are discussing_.






> BUT: I can't see any convincing argument being put forward so far why the Turkish name has to be a translation of the Greek/Latin name. The etymology presented in dictionaries ("wooded mountains") seems no better, no worse than the idea of a translation of the Greek/Latin name. I'm sitting on the fence and very much like to hear a conclusive argument.



Let's take a look at the "wooded mountain" argument and analyze its *preponderance*. According to Tomic:

1. Balkan Penninsula derives its name from the Slavic Toponym "Stara Planina".
2. "Stara Planina" in Slavic languages (no specifics as to which particular one) means "OLD Mountain"
3. Turkish word Balkan means (according to Tomic again) "thickly wooded mountain range" or "high ridge"
4. A certain ZEUNE (a german historian) used Balkanhalbinsel for the first time around 1808
5. Some Serbian called Cvijic picked up into that terminology 100 years later (in 1918) out of hate for Turks and their "European Turkey" toponimy.

- Now, can some slavo-turkish person off the ones mentioned by our friend ankalimon explain to us how the 'OLD Mountain' became the 'Thickly Wooded RANGE'?
- Have I missed any proofs that TURKS (regardles of being seljucks, or Tatars, or Peching, or Manchurian) TRANSLATED Slavic toponyms into Turkish, but did not translate from the indigenous population?
- Can anyone ponder on the the evidence why Turks referred to Slavic language for toponimic references? ​


----------



## ireney

Side note about the drop of "H"/eta: While it stopped being actually written, in, at least the Attic dialect, it continued being pronounced all the way till Koine when it gradually got dropped all together. It was denoted during Hellenistic times with the rough breathing mark (daseia). Its long life (way past the 5th century) is the reason we ended up with hippopotamus 
And the sound does sound to me like a consonant (click the rough breathing mark here for a good approximation)


----------



## berndf

Sulius said:


> I find aeneas dardanus quotation rather correct. The loss of Heta happened in the proto-ionic-attic split, which can be placed at about 4 BCE conservatively. That was before the dissapearance of the digama, the qoppa and so on. If we are discussing HAEM-us, we must be cognisant of the fact that H was dropped before ae became e: in Attic. Thus, he is not confusing anything because the split of the Proto Greek into Ionic and Attic had not happened YET, all in the while when H was lost.
> 
> Says B. Samuels of UMD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The  first compensatory lengthening, also a Proto-Attic-Ionic change,  involved loss of  (derived from Proto-Greek *s and *j) in certain  sequences. The [a:] created by the first compensatory lengthening did  feed  __into the [a:] > [æ:] change, so it must have occurred prior to any of the other changes we are discussing_.
Click to expand...

The keyword in this quote is _in certain sequences_. Early loss of intervocalic and final /h/ is undisputed but we are talking about initial /h/ here. If you continue reading you'll find in the same paper (p.14) exactly what I said:





> _In 403BCE, the Athenians officially began using the Ionic alphabet, and other groups soon followed suit, abandoning their dialectal variants of the script in favor of the standard version. The Ionic alphabet was primarily characterized by the use of <η>, indicating a long [ę:] sound instead of its former phonetic value of ... _



__________________________________________________________________________


Sulius said:


> Let's take a look at the "wooded mountain" argument and analyze its *preponderance*. According to Tomic:
> 
> 1. Balkan Penninsula derives its name from the Slavic Toponym "Stara Planina".
> 2. "Stara Planina" in Slavic languages (no specifics as to which particular one) means "OLD Mountain"
> 3. Turkish word Balkan means (according to Tomic again) "thickly wooded mountain range" or "high ridge"
> 4. A certain ZEUNE (a german historian) used Balkanhalbinsel for the first time around 1808
> 5. Some Serbian called Cvijic picked up into that terminology 100 years later (in 1918) out of hate for Turks and their "European Turkey" toponimy.
> 
> - Now, can some slavo-turkish person off the ones mentioned by our friend ankalimon explain to us how the 'OLD Mountain' became the 'Thickly Wooded RANGE'?
> - Have I missed any proofs that TURKS (regardles of being seljucks, or Tatars, or Peching, or Manchurian) TRANSLATED Slavic toponyms into Turkish, but did not translate from the indigenous population?
> - Can anyone ponder on the the evidence why Turks referred to Slavic language for toponimic references?


You seem to take it for granted that the Turkish name of the mountain _has_ to be a translation of sorts. I can't see any compelling reason for this assumption.​


----------



## ancalimon

I am totally not sure about this but:

Kan might have meant "mountain" or more probably "high, highness" (maybe related to Khan)

Bal or Bol might have meant "crowded and/or thick, dense" and also "rich, fertile, abundant"

There is a mountain which is simply called "Khan Tengri"


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## Sulius

berndf said:


> The keyword in this quote is _in certain sequences_. Early loss of intervocalic and final /h/ is undisputed but we are talking about initial /h/ here. If you continue reading you'll find in the same paper (p.14) exactly what I said:




The quote confirms that the H was lost before 4 BCE. The susbtitution was a vowel - the long E. 




> You seem to take it for granted that the Turkish name of the mountain _has_ to be a translation of sorts. I can't see any compelling reason for this assumption.​



Not really. This is the only other (and generally accepted!) theory on the Balkan expression I have encountered so far. Perhaps you know of another hypothesis? Let's have it.

In any case, it is queer for a Turkish expression to became the mainstream logo for the Pennisula when Turks were almost getting out of there, and that because the "European Turkey" was too Turkish.


----------



## berndf

Sulius said:


> The quote confirms that the H was lost before 4 BCE. The susbtitution was a vowel - the long E.


How many times do I have to repeat this: In Ionic and not in Attic.





> _The *Ionic* alphabet was primarily characterized by the use of  <η>, indicating a long [ę:] sound instead of its former phonetic  value of ... _


Ok, again and more explicit: Ionic lost initial /h/ prior to 400BC and consequently lost the need for a consonantal HETA and used the letter only as a vowel sign (long open e). Attic spelling retained the dual use as a consonant and as a vowel sign because the dialect retained phonemic /h/ word-initially. E.g. the name of the goddess Hera was spelled _HHPA _in Attic, the first "H" representing a consonant and the second a vowel. After 403BC, Attic spelling adapted to Ionic use and dropped the consonantal "H" (though an intermediate stage of the "half-H") without change of pronunciation; hence the spelling of _Hera _became _HPA _though it continued to be pronounced _HHPA _for many centuries to come and hence the Romans continued to transcribe it _HERA_ and not _*ERA_ and in diacritic Greek spelling the _spiritus asper_ was introduced to represent the still phonemic /h/.


Sulius said:


> Not really. This is the only other (and generally accepted!) theory on the Balkan expression I have encountered so far. Perhaps you know of another hypothesis? Let's have it.
> 
> In any case, it is queer for a Turkish expression to became the mainstream logo for the Pennisula when Turks were almost getting out of there, and that because the "European Turkey" was too Turkish.


Dictionaries quote "wooded mountain" without stating if it is a translation or a Turkish invention. The remaining question is why the Turks called the mountain range _Balkan_. That the extension of the name to the entire peninsula is a modern Western (probably German) "invention" has been clarified.


----------



## aeneas dardanus

berndf said:


> I'm sitting on the fence and very much like to hear a conclusive  argument.


So you want a scientific conclusion?

Here, 
I'll give you one: 

_If you are not from Mars, as you obviously aren't -
you must come from one of us Earthlings._



_Therefore, _
_(and since we are not discussing which one)_

if Balkan 
has absolutely no etymological relations with the meaning _"wooded mountain chain"_ ( as it doesn't!) ;

But contrary to that,
_bal & kan_ precisely describe the meaning of Hem - than, 
_Balkan is a Turkic equivalent of its original name Hem_ - is invariantly, the only scientific conclusion of the fact.


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## mataripis

ancalimon said:


> I am totally not sure about this but:
> 
> Kan might have meant "mountain" or more probably "high, highness" (maybe related to Khan)
> 
> Bal or Bol might have meant "crowded and/or thick, dense" and also "rich, fertile, abundant"
> 
> There is a mountain which is simply called "Khan Tengri"


   I remember that in old tagalog, anything that is remote and mountenous is called "Bukid" and in Dumaget it is "Bukwad".  but when you say flower it is "Bukan" (Dumaget)  and the "Bal" in that word has the meaning "Famous for" and if i create a term out of these ,this will sound like " Bangkan" meaning "well known for lush vegetation"


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## berndf

aeneas dardanus said:


> if Balkan
> has absolutely no etymological relations with the meaning _"wooded mountain chain"_ ( as it doesn't!) ;


You seem to be an expert on Turkic languages which I am not. I was hoping to read some substantiation rather than mere repetition of this claim.


----------



## Sulius

berndf said:


> How many times do I have to repeat this: In Ionic and not in Attic.Ok, again and more explicit: Ionic lost initial /h/ prior to 400BC and consequently lost the need for a consonantal HETA and used the letter only as a vowel sign (long open e). Attic spelling retained the dual use as a consonant and as a vowel sign because the dialect retained phonemic /h/ word-initially. E.g. the name of the goddess Hera was spelled _HHPA _in Attic, the first "H" representing a consonant and the second a vowel. After 403BC, Attic spelling adapted to Ionic use and dropped the consonantal "H" (though an intermediate stage of the "half-H") without change of pronunciation; hence the spelling of _Hera _became _HPA _though it continued to be pronounced _HHPA _for many centuries to come and hence the Romans continued to transcribe it _HERA_ and not _*ERA_ and in diacritic Greek spelling the _spiritus asper_ was introduced to represent the still phonemic /h/.



I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Loss of H is documented during the Proto-Greek Language (circa 2 BC) which precedes Koine. 
Thus, the Attic or Ionic split is beyond the point of discussion because:
1. It happened later.
1. Either way, it matters less when H was lost, but it matters what circumestances produced that loss (e.g. ovelayering of original substrate with other populations).
2. Preservation of conversational H in Attic until later is probably attributable to the pockets of indigenous ancient Greeks that inhabited the penninsula, and who were assimilated later than their Ionian counterparties. Haemus region falls primarily under the the Ionic influence.
3. Unlike the written form which can be attested, the spoken speech omissions are hard to document. The issue remains highly speculative.



> Dictionaries quote "wooded mountain" without stating if it is a translation or a Turkish invention. The remaining question is why the Turks called the mountain range _Balkan_. That the extension of the name to the entire peninsula is a modern Western (probably German) "invention" has been clarified.



The dictionaries specify that Turks loaned the expression, without specifying the type of the loan. Let see what one of the first persons documented to use this toponym has to say:







If I am not mistaken Morrit breaks the word into Bal and Kan in 1794. He also mention mount "Haemus" in the next line. Balkan is thought to have been recognized as "Penninsula of Heamus" along the lines of "Penninsula of Appenines".

I will also leave you with this very curious quote, which rules out exactly the "wooded" and the "mountain range" versions maintained by Italians:


> _1621- Luois Deshayes de Cormain "This mountain which separates Bulgaria from Romania...., is called by Italians "Chain of the world" and by Turks *"Dervent", *the name given to all mountains covered with woods, just as BALKAN is the name for BARE CLIFS, i.e. what the ANCIENT KNEW BY THE NAME OF HAEMUS"_


----------



## berndf

Sulius said:


> I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Loss of H is dokumented during the Proto-Greek Language (circa 2 BC) which precedes Koine.
> Thus, the Attic or Ionic split is beyond the point of discussion because:
> 1. It happened later.
> 1. Either way, it matters less when H was lost, but it matters what circumestances produced that loss (e.g. ovelayering of original substrate with other populations).
> 2. Preservation of conversational H in Attic until later is probably attributable to the pockets of indigenous Ancient Greeks that inhabited the penninsula, and who were assimilated latter than their Ionian counterparties. Haemus region falls primarily under the the Ionic influence.
> 3. Unlike the written form which can be attested, the spoken speech omissions are hard to document. The issue remains highly speculative.


What on earth are you taking about?
- Proto-Greek is not documented at all and was before about 1700BC.
- Attic is the only relevant dialect because it is the basis for Latin transcriptions of Greek words and that's why we are discussing all this (_Can a Latin word starting with "H" be a transcription of a Geek word?_).
- Continued phonemicity of _spiritus asper _(=word-inital /h/) is documented in Hellenistic Greek.



Sulius said:


> Let see what one of the first persons documented to use this toponym has to say:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I am not mistaken Morrit breaks the word into Bal and Kan in 1794. He also mention mount "Haemus" in the next line. Balkan is thought to have been recognized as "Penninsula of Heamus" along the lines of "Penninsula of Appenines".
> 
> I will also leave you with this very curious quote, which rules out exactly the "wooded" and the "mountain range" versions maintained by Italians:


You seem to have read this (Maria Todorova: Imagining the Balkans) book. (Mis-)conceptions of Western travelers are hardly relevant for the Turkish etymology which is discussed on p.26 in that book. "Most Ottoman and Turkish dictionaries describe it as mountain or mountain range, some specify it as wooded mountain, some as pass through thickly wooded and rocky maintains".

Moreover we read: "The combination Emine-Balkan is actually the literal Ottoman translation of 'Haemus-mountain': from the Byzantine 'Aimis', 'Emmon', and 'Emmona' the Ottomans derived their 'Emine'". This seems to solve the apparent conflict of explanations: _Balkan_ itself is not a translation of _Haemus Mons_ but has been used as part of such translation.


----------



## Sulius

<< -- Please read EHL rule 15. -- >>



> You seem to have read this (Maria Todorova: Imagining the Balkans) book. (Mis-)conceptions of Western travelers are hardly relevant for the Turkish etymology which is discussed on p.26 in that book. "Most Ottoman and Turkish dictionaries describe it as mountain or mountain range, some specify it as wooded mountain, some as pass through thickly wooded and rocky maintains".
> 
> Moreover we read: "The combination Emine-Balkan is actually the literal Ottoman translation of 'Haemus-mountain': from the Byzantine 'Aimis', 'Emmon', and 'Emmona' the Ottomans derived their 'Emine'". This seems to solve the apparent conflict of explanations: _Balkan_ itself is not a translation of _Haemus Mons_ but has been used as part of such translation.[/



I assume you to be saying that since Turks used Emine to transliterate Haemus into their colloquial, the Balkan word must indicate either a Mountain or a Range. Todorova is under the same impression, as well. Logically I tend to agree with you, but no further. Back to the discussion on the historical context, one needs to keep in mind that what we call Turkish is not a unique verbal communication between people of the same race, whcih in many cases has produced different words with the same etymological conotation. A few historians and etymologysts attest to an unexplained number of tautological geographical expressions in the area and beyond. Here goes one such observation:


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## berndf

<< -- Response to deleted comment -- >>



Sulius said:


> I assume you to be saying that since Turks used Emine to transliterate Haemus into their colloquial, the Balkan word must indicate either a Mountain or a Range. Todorova is under the same impression, as well.


Todorova is not under any "impression" here but reports explanations found in Ottoman dictionaries ("Most Ottoman and Turkish dictionaries describe it as mountain or  mountain range, some specify it as wooded mountain, some as pass through  thickly wooded and rocky maintains").​


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## Sulius

berndf said:


> *<...>*Todorova is not under any "impression" here but reports explanations found in Ottoman dictionaries.
> [/LEFT]



I do not find it useful to reply to a post that claims the truth equates with what came to stay andwas never questioned regardless of conflicting evidence. Personally, i find the explanation of aeneas dardanus entincing. Especially if we consider that etymologically "h/ae" is commonly found in the region to denote "RED", "Iron Ore - Stone" and possibly (and erroneusly "crimson") in the regional ancient language from time immemorable.


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## berndf

Sulius said:


> I do not find it useful to reply to a post that claims the truth equates with what came to stay andwas never questioned regardless of conflicting evidence. Personally, i find the explanation of aeneas dardanus entincing. Especially if we consider that etymologically "h/ae" is commonly found in the region to denote "RED", "Iron Ore - Stone" and possibly (and erroneusly "crimson") in the regional ancient language from time immemorable.


What do you suggest? Ignoring Turkish sources when exploring the etymology of a Turkish word.

So far we have to possible explanation:


_Balkan _as a translation of _Haemus _because _kan _means _blood _in Turkish and _Haemus _ is reminiscent of the Greek word for _blood_.
_Balkan _as part of "[t]he combination Emine-Balkan" the first part of which would be a transliteration of Byzantine name of the mountain range and the second would be a Turkish word meaning _mountain_,  _mountain range_, _(thickly) wooded mountain_ or _rocky maintains_.
 Explanation 1. has some intuitive plausibility but no Turkish sources to back it up while 2. is backed up by Turkish sources but relies on meaning not present in modern Turkish any more. I know too little about Turkic language to decide between the two.


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## Sulius

berndf said:


> What do you suggest? Ignoring Turkish sources when exploring the etymology of a Turkish word.
> 
> So far we have to possible explanation:
> 
> _Balkan _as a translation of _Haemus _because _kan _means _blood _in Turkish and _Haemus _ is reminiscent of the Greek word for _blood_.
> _Balkan _as part of "[t]he combination Emine-Balkan" the first part of which would be a transliteration of Byzantine name of the mountain range and the second would be a Turkish word meaning _mountain_,  _mountain range_, _(thickly) wooded mountain_ or _rocky maintains_.
> Explanation 1. has some intuitive plausibility but no Turkish sources to back it up while 2. is backed up by Turkish sources but relies on meaning not present in modern Turkish any more. I know too little about Turkic language to decide between the two.



Someone is missing something here because the opening post read:


> Recently when I was on trip to Bulgaria and Serbia the guide told us that the word Balkan comes from Turkish "bal" = honey + "kan" = blood (as in: "here you will obtain honey but this will require blood from you") (and he insisted on it, as having based himself on the book that is not accessible to me, a collection of scholarly papers which he called "Thirteen hundred years of history of Bulgaria" or something similar; I cannot find it in the university library catalogue).



In addition, a five minute search on the internet will give you numerous of leads from turkish scholars who maintain that bal+kan it is indeed blood and honey. I am posting here a german quote for illustration just because it covers both points in your reply:



> Apart from "mountains", "*BLOOD*& *HONEY*" is one possible translation of the term BAL-KAN. _Blut and Honig;Zukunft ist am Balkan, Szeemann, p15_




It is my undestanding that the discussion was not centered around "Bal" and "Kan" being Turkish compounds and their meaning, but in what way, shape or form the Turkish menaing of these compaunds ('blood' and 'honey') ever related to the Penninsula, prior explanations being rendered ridiculous by folk stories of sweet regional honey honey and bloody wars. To that, aeneas dardanus responded that both words connect etymologically to Haemus etc.,

I was hoping to see a bit more on the interesting expanation, when some people jumped the gun and flared for reasons I do not follow. This is a discussion board. An issue can be discussed thorougly until sattisfactory, unless someone has pressing issues and want to conclude by closing the thread.


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## ancalimon

berndf said:


> What do you suggest? Ignoring Turkish sources when exploring the etymology of a Turkish word.
> 
> So far we have to possible explanation:
> 
> 
> _Balkan _as a translation of _Haemus _because _kan _means _blood _in Turkish and _Haemus _ is reminiscent of the Greek word for _blood_.
> _Balkan _as part of "[t]he combination Emine-Balkan" the first part of which would be a transliteration of Byzantine name of the mountain range and the second would be a Turkish word meaning _mountain_,  _mountain range_, _(thickly) wooded mountain_ or _rocky maintains_.
> Explanation 1. has some intuitive plausibility but no Turkish sources to back it up while 2. is backed up by Turkish sources but relies on meaning not present in modern Turkish any more. I know too little about Turkic language to decide between the two.



I'd like to add that there is a drink called KIMIZ which was made with horse blood and horse milk or simply horse milk. Today only milk is used (at least that's what I hope  ). Might be related with HAEMUS.

But even with a few drops of blood added to the drink I don't think the drink would have become red. It would at most become pink. I also don't think they added too much blood to the drink in the past. Still, today we call the color red "KIRMIZI" in Turkish. I think that sounds Arabic.


I'd like to add this information from Turkish Etymology Dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy






It says:

BALKAN: Sarp ve ormanlık dağ 
 <ET **bal(ı)k* 'çamur'*+an* 'bataklık'
Krş. ET. *balık ~ balk* 'çamur'; *balık* 'şehir' (DLT)
*An.ağl.: balkan, balgam, bal-gamlık, balğan* 'Sazlık, bataklık' _(DS.II, 507)_

~~

Sarp ve ormanlık dağ: Mountain that's steep-rugged and that have forests on it.

Çamur: mud    Şehir: city    Sazlık: morass   Bataklık: bog,swamp  Balgam: phlegm

~~

Also BALTA (axe) might be related with BALKAN as well. (the word is same among Turkish, Mongolian and Tungusic.)

Thus I have another theory: Since the etymology dictionary I have says that BALKAN is related with BALIK (which means city) and I suspect that BALTA could also be related with BALKAN, maybe the BAL part meant something like equal parts (as in LABYRS) (BÖL means divide,split,parcel out) or stable-balanced ground (and stabilizing-balancing-erecting materials,ingredients). (since cities are also usually found on stable ground). Also BAL (honey) could have been seen as some kind of stable city for bees.... 
BALBAL: human statue erected from stone. (which is of course balanced, bolt upright)


An example supporting this theory:  There is a city in Turkey named BALIKESIR and it has three possible meanings:

BALIK ESİR:  city - hostage

BALI KESİR:  honey is bitter

most probably this:  BALI(K) HİSAR: (if my theory is correct) stable-sturdy-rugged castle

You can actually say that balık most probably have most of the meanings of sağlam (sturdy) http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|sağlam

   All of this wouldn't explain the bog-swamp part though.



~~


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## berndf

ancalimon said:


> I'd like to add this information from Turkish Etymology Dictionary by Tuncer Gülensoy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says:
> 
> BALKAN: Sarp ve ormanlık dağ
> <ET **bal(ı)k* 'çamur'*+an* 'bataklık'
> Krş. ET. *balık ~ balk* 'çamur'; *balık* 'şehir' (DLT)
> *An.ağl.: balkan, balgam, bal-gamlık, balğan* 'Sazlık, bataklık' _(DS.II, 507)_
> 
> ~~
> 
> Sarp ve ormanlık dağ: Mountain that's steep-rugged and that have forests on it.
> 
> Çamur: mud    Şehir: city    Sazlık: morass   Bataklık: bog,swamp  Balgam: phlegm
> 
> ~~


Interesting. When I understand the entry correctly, the interpretation _honey-blood_ would then be due to a misanalysis of the word as _Bal-kan_ while the correct analysis would be _Balk-an_, and _Balk-_ a contraction of _balık. _Is that understanding correct? 

Does the meaning _balık or balk = mud_ rather than _fish_ resonate with you as a modern Turkish speaker?


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## ancalimon

The word balık=şehir is outdated and I'm positively sure that there are almost nobody in Turkey who knows that balık meant city in the past. Also there's that information which Mahmud of Kashgar says that only polytheist Turks called cities as balık and he also wrote that those Turks (probably some people living among Russians, Slavs, Chinese, Greeks) stopped being Turks in the past. (for God knows what reason (maybe because they became polytheist)... Probably things were different in the past)

There are many possibilities to what the word originally could have been due to changes that happen in Turkish. For example It could have been Bağlık (connection or somewhere which ties two places together like a threshold or place with many yards or a place that looks like a yard or well-kept place) (Ğ actually is a letter which conglutinates the letter before it and the letter after it together).  I think it meant protected place like a castle in which people hoarded wealth.

when I say "balkan", it sounds to me like "something consisting of mud" but I can't know how people perceived it in the past.

I guess that the trick is to see the connection between bal (honey) and balk (mud). The structure of both materials is similar. They are thick and they are used for building homes. One used for human homes, the other used for bee homes. 

So BAL (and maybe some other forms of the word) in my opinion meant something which was related and close to city, things used to build a city, city founder, city dweller, abundance, place where wealth is collected (related to BOL:abundant).

This is from another Turkic etymology dictionary; this time from Azerbaijan.

http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=balqan


> *balqan:
> balğan.
> ◊  (< bal). iti. kəsərli.
> ◊  qızqın.
> ◊  iyit. pəkləvan. pəhləvan.
> ◊  məncənaq.
> ◊  balığ xan. balığ, şəhər xaqanı.
> ◊  sarp, uzanan hündür dağ.
> ◊  tuğay. çəkələk. cəngəl. urman. ğaba. meşə. biqşə. bükşə {bişə (fars) < bük).
> ** balkan. sıx ormanlı, sarp sıradağlar.
> ** balğan. balkan. qalğan. uca. yüksək. -balqan dağlar. *



*qızqın *(kızgın in Turkish): angry
*iyit *(yiğit in Turkish): brave, honorable, valiant, daredevil, red-blooded
*məncənaq*: (mancınık in Turkish): catapult
*şəhər xaqanı *(şehir hakanı in Turkish): controller, regulator of a city
*cəngəl *(çengel): fork, hook
*urman *(orman):forest
*ğaba*: (kaba) rugged, rough, vulgar, brute, rude, barbarous, uncivilized, ...
*meşə *(meşe): oak
*bük*: twist, bend, curve, hook, ...

and also the same rugged-steep mountains with forests.

Here is a verb: balqanlaşma    (laş: like- to become like.   ma: to)
http://www.turuz.com/sozluk.aspx?dict=arin&q=balqanlaşma



> *balqanlaşma:
> balkanlaşma. ( < balmaq: bölmək). ayrışma. parçalanma. təcziyələnmə. bir topraqda çeşitli neçə devlətə bölünmə.  *



*bölmek *(to divide, to break down, to split, to parcel out...) http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|bölmek

ayrışma: to dissolve (and connect together stronger in smaller quantities "for example like cement").  decomposition, dissociation,
parçalanma: to break down into smaller components
PS: I guess that balgam (mucus, spit) is related to this as well because in the past people divided lands by spitting on the ground. People might have thought that just like mucus breaks the food we eat into smaller components for our body, it also divided lands among different people...  Found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Spit

it says *to become divided into many different countries on the same land.*

*təcziyələnmə: *to become a lesser political entity. (for example from empire to country to state to city to district to village...)

I guess all of the above shows us that Balkan - Balıq (city) and Polis are related words. This would make Balkan both a Turkish word and also a Greek word in its essence. (since poly : bol, ~böl   and polis : balıq). For an empire to become divided into many city states, it has to "balkanlaşmak".

All the problem lies within finding the true etymology of the word balıq:city. I have been trying to figure it out for a long time. Maybe the people who built balıqs were tyrans who hoarded the wealth of people who lived around the balıq inside the balıq and that's why balqan also means catapult (catapults were used against the castles) ? And the people who built balıqs were also law makers as a result balqan was also called city regulator? 

Ordu Balıq : The fortress of the army-horde?
Beş Balıq: Five castles?


----------



## berndf

ancalimon said:


> I guess all of the above shows us that Balkan - Balıq (city) and Polis are related words.


No it does not. Not even if the two word meant 100% the same thing it wouldn't mean the two words are related. It might mean that the concepts were related but not the words.


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## ancalimon

Just learned this information:



> In the "Chulman Tolgau" epic Balkan is the name of the  sacred mountain - abode of the gods, which in that poem seems to be  identified with Kuenlun. Also Balkan is a by-name (which was "Alp Et-Barak Kebek" before) of the guardian of  that place - the Dog-spirit (patron of the 11th year of the animal  cycle).



http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/10_History/KubanChulmanTolgauEn.htm

We see the name Balkan in the parts:
*2. How appeared the Earth, the sea and the land*
*4. As people became beautiful and offended Chulman.*
*6. How years have received names.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Mountains

PS: Alp today means hero - very high status. (it's a common given name usually together with er> Alper; Hero Ascended-Saint) But in the mythological epic, I think it is used in a sense of "not yet fully evolved human being living on trees jumping from branch to branch".

ET is "dog". It's İT in Turkish today

I'm not sure about "Barak". I guess it could be related with soul, ascension and horse (horse in Proto-Turkic is related with soul&death&journey) as well making "Et-Barak" some kind of "Ascended Dog" maybe.

"Kebek" should be "dog". It's "köpek" in Turkish today.


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## Yasie

1. Maybe that is one of the stories - chicken and the egg. it is hard to believe in the turkish translation version. More realistic is using the same logic by multiple nations. If the mountain really looked reddish , there is no reason why multiple nations wouldnt use the same descriptive method to create the name. Mount Hemmis and mount balkan simply being the description of the same view , not translation.
2. Is there any consideration of the similarity of the the part BAL to BALY , BILY , BIALY in multiple slavic languages.
the same logic of etymology as in baltic see or alp mountains. That one would lead to white mountains which is clearly not the same as red or honey/red.  But would be quite typical for description of snowy mountains. Also most of the balkan mountains really look white thanks to limestone.
So the chance that this description was used by local tribes sounds quite realistic.

all above is speculative but after reading that thread - why not.


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## Christo Tamarin

The etymology of Balkan.

In Turkish (or Oghuz Turkic), Balkan means either _mountain chain_, or _woody mountain_, whatever, no matter; I bet on the 2nd.

Especially, the mountain chain, which crosses Bulgaria to Northern and Southern parts and which was used by the Western scholars to give the name to the peninsula, was called *Koca Balkan* in Turkish, and this name - Koca Balkan - was used in Bulgarian, too. Practically, in Bulgarian, every mountain could be called Balkan as there are "woody" mountains only on that territory and not "rocky" mountains. Though, the other mountains in Bulgaria can be called Balkans, but not Koca Balkan - Koca Balkan is a specific mountain which is also a Balkan.

In modern Bulgarian, the name Koca Balkan is replaced by its calque, СТАРА ПЛАНИНА. This calque is not applicable to the other mountains.


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