# Holy as a concept



## ThomasK

I am very interested in the (use, meaning, impact of) "holy" and its "equivalents" in other languages. BCut I think I need more linguistic background to discuss it well. Can anyone suggest terms that are useful - or confirm or refute certain of my (implicit) presuppositions? Or refer to books and sites that are relevant regarding that kind of issues? 

1. I am inclined to think that all the words used to translate "holy" refer to the same. That they have a common _*signifié/...*_ for all those signs. 
2. Can I say that there is some *concept *like "holy"? I used to think so but I once discovered that the _farmer _concept is not so self-evident as it seemed to be to me. 
2. _Sacred _though is not always a real *equivalent*/... of _holy: _it is the opposite of _profane_, _holy _might be "more than" the opposite. I might be wrong here, but the main issue for me is: what are the correct terms when referring to the relationship between those terms. (I have used "equivalent", "sacred" might be a near-synonym of "holy"? 
3. Are there other/better terms than "*translations*" to refer to "holy", "heilig", "saint", "sagrado", etc.?


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## apmoy70

The Greek word is *«άγιος, -ία/-ια, -ιο»* [ˈaʝi.o̞s̠] (masc.), [aˈʝi.a] and (colloq.) [aˈʝa] (fem.), [ˈaʝi.o̞] (neut.) < Classical *«ἅγιος, -ίᾱ, -ιον» hắɡĭŏs* (masc.), *hăɡíā* (fem.), *hắɡĭŏn* (neut.) --> lit. _set apart_, metaph. _holy, devoted to the ɡods, (Koine) saint_. The earliest meaning was a person/thing set apart from anything else, and ritually pure (as it's demonstrated by its connection with the adjective «ἁγνός» hăɡnós).
Sacred is *«ιερός, -ή, -ό»* [i.e̞ˈɾo̞s̠] (masc.), [i.e̞ˈɾi] (fem.), [i.e̞ˈɾo̞] (neut.) < Classical adj. *«ἱερός, -ρά, -ρόν» hĭĕrós* (masc.), *hĭĕrā́* (fem.), *hĭĕrón* (neut.). For its etymoloɡy, Beekes reads:


			
				Robert Beekes said:
			
		

> The different meanings and the formal variation induced many scholars to split ἱερός into two or even in three words. Thus, a separate ϝῑερός 'rapid, quick' (whence ἱέραξ 'hawk', s. v.) was assumed because of the long anlaut in ῑερόν ἰχθύν Π407, ἱαρός ὄρνις (Alcm. Fr. 26), and ἱερός ὄρνις (AP 7, 171). This length can easily be explained as metrical lengthening. In the meaning 'strong, forceful', however, ἱερός would be identical with Skt. is̩irá- 'strong, active'. A third ἱερός 'holy' would have connections with Italic and Germanic words like Osc. aisusis 'sacrifiis', Palign. aisis, U erus 'dis', OHG era 'honor'. Duchesne-Guillemin 1937: 333ff. supported the old comparison with Skt. is̩irá- by pointing to the agreement between ἱερόν μένος and Skt. is̩irén̥a mánasā [ins.]. See R. Schmitt 1967: 111-114 on this correspondence
> ....
> Formally, the Greek dialects show three different forms: ἱερός, ἱαρός, ῑρός. Ramat Sprache 8 (1962): 4-28 connects it with Skt. is̩n̥āti 'set in movement', which means that the root contained a laryngeal. Garda Ramon 1992b: 183-205 assumed a pre-form *h₁ish₂-ro- because of the connection with ἰνάω. He also assumed that the laryngeal was lost between *s and r. Lesbian ἶρος, then, continues the regular pre-form *isro-, while Dor. ἱαρός and Att. (etc.) ἱερός replaced the suffIx with -αρο- or -ερο-



Edit: Apologies for my late editing, I corrected some spelling mistakes


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## Abaye

Isn't there also ὅσιος _hosios_ = holy in Greek?


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## apmoy70

Abaye said:


> Isn't there also ὅσιος _hosios_ = holy in Greek?


Ὄσιος hósiŏs is not holy per se:


			
				Liddell-Scott Lexicon said:
			
		

> The sense of ὅσιος (sanctioned or allowed by the law of_ God_ or of _nature) _often depends on its relation on the one hand to δίκαιος (sanctioned by _human_ law), on the other to ἱερός (_sacred_ to the gods)


Later in Koine (and in Byzantine and Modern Greek) came to describe the monastic saint *only*


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## ThomasK

@Apmoy: thanks a lot again. Quite impressive as extra background. Would you call _hagios _a perfect (translation/) equivalent of 'holy'? I believe it refers back to the IE /sak/ /sek/ root of _sacer _and _sanctus _(with n-infix) - and of _sect_.

I suppose translation science could offer answers to my terminological issues, but...


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## bearded

ThomasK said:


> and of 'sect'


Oh I always thought that ''sect'' was connected with the Latin verb _secare _(to cut, to separate), since a sect is a separated community.


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## ThomasK

Well, etymonline.com states: 
- sect < secare "to cut" (from PIE root *sek- "to cut")
- sacred <  Old Latin saceres, from PIE root *sak- "to sanctify" 

But I thought those were basically the same roots, along the lines Apmoy suggested: holy = set apart...


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## bearded

ThomasK said:


> I thought those were basically the same roots


Dear etymologist apmoy, please confirm (or deny) this.


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## Welsh_Sion

Busy at the moment ... but consider 'consecrated' as well - which Latin root gives rise to 'cysegr' in Welsh ('a holy place'). Further, the more usual word for 'holy' in Cymraeg is 'san(c)taidd' - the root is obvious, but it also alludes to the holiness of saints.: 'sant' + adjectival ending '-aidd'. (*sainty, you might say.)


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## apmoy70

bearded said:


> Dear etymologist apmoy, please confirm (or deny) this.


Oh, I think the two are indeed unrelated, sānctus, sancīre are from *seh₂k- _to make pact, consecrate_ with cognate the English _saught_, while secta, secāre, are from *sek- _to cut_ with coɡnates the Enɡlish saw (tool), seax (Anɡlo-Saxon weapon).
PS: I'm not an etymologist, my area of expertise is something totally different.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: thanks a lot again. Quite impressive as extra background. Would you call _hagios _a perfect (translation/) equivalent of 'holy'? I believe it refers back to the IE /sak/ /sek/ root of _sacer _and _sanctus _(with n-infix) - and of _sect_.
> 
> I suppose translation science could offer answers to my terminological issues, but...


Yes, hagios is indeed the perfect equivalent of holy


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## bearded

apmoy70 said:


> I'm not an etymologist


You are being too modest  .  I always appreciate your Greek etymologies immensely, since they (among other things) help me to review my rusty Ancient Greek.
Pollous chairetismous ap' tin Italia


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> Can I say that there is some *concept *like "holy"?


English "holy" is pretty polysemic, with two main meanings being "revered in a religion" (for inanimate objects that's basically equivalent to "sacred") and "morally flawless". Of course, in other languages that area of semantics may be organized in a slightly different manner.


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## berndf

Awwal12 said:


> English "holy" is pretty polysemic, with two main meanings being "revered in a religion" (for inanimate objects that's basically equivalent to "sacred") and "morally flawless".


I am not sure this is quite accurate. The etymological meaning is _bringing salvation_ or _good health, being saved _or _of good health_, derived from PGm _*hailaz = good sign, good health_ with the adjective suffix _-ig_ > _-y_.

Since OE the adjective translates eccl. Latin _sanctus_ an _sacrer_. The meaning _morally flawless_ is by extension only and does not constitute an independent meaning.


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## Circunflejo

ThomasK said:


> Can I say that there is some *concept *like "holy"?


The question is: What's holy? I ask because holy is (usually) translated into Spanish as sacred or saint (depending on cotext) and you seem to object about them being full synonyms of holy. Therefore, what's holy? What makes it different from sacred or saint?


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## ThomasK

Well, that is the point of course. But what I do think is that you cannot just interchange _sacred _and _saint_, as Awwal pointed out in #13. you will say that songs may be sacred, but never holy, as a matter of fact. So... But Berndf suggests both are not independent meanings, which I agree with.  And maybe we ought to add Welsh_Sion's suggestion 'consecrated', which would be a participle in Dutch too, 'geheiligd', based on 'heiligen', "to consecrate". 

i suppose you have sagrado and santo in Spanish. I suppose you cannot interchange them. or can you? Sagrada Familia = Santa F?


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## Circunflejo

ThomasK said:


> i suppose you have sagrado and santo in Spanish.


Yes, but that would be sacred and saint, wouldn't it? So where's holy?


ThomasK said:


> I suppose you cannot interchange them.


Being sagrado one of the meanings of santo, it all depends on context, intended nuances and common uses.


ThomasK said:


> Sagrada Familia = Santa F?


Oración a la Sagrada Familia - Vatican News The question would be: is santa being used as a synonym of sagrada or does it have another intended nuance? There's no way to know, I guess.


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## Ben Jamin

In Polish the word "święty" covers both "holy" and "sacred" in almost all contexts. In some contexts the words "święcony" (święcona woda/holy water), "uświęcony" , or "poświęcony" (all meaning "hallowed") may be used when describing objects or places.
The word "święty" is a cognate of Latin "sanctus" and Avestan "spenta".


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## pollohispanizado

Ben Jamin said:


> In Polish the word "święty" covers both "holy" and "sacred" in almost all contexts. In formal language the word "uświęcony" , or "poświęcony" ("holyfied")


There are other ways of saying it too. The word "holyfied" reminded me of the Our Father:

_Hallowed_ be thy name
_Santificado_ sea su nombre

And then in Spanish there's _consagrado _and _sacrosanto_


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## Awwal12

Ben Jamin said:


> In Polish the word "święty" covers both "holy" and "sacred" in almost all contexts. In formal language the word "uświęcony" , or "poświęcony" ("holyfied") may be used when describing objects or places.
> The word "święty" is a cognate of Latin "sanctus".


For reference, Russian uses:
святой (svyatóy) for "holy", "saint" (about persons); also "holy" (religiously revered or ritually blessed, regarding objects, but chiefly just in certain stable phrases, like "the Holy land" or "holy water");
священный (svyaschénnyi) for "holy" (about objects), "sacred".


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## Ben Jamin

pollohispanizado said:


> There are other ways of saying it too. The word "holyfied" reminded me of the Our Father:
> 
> _Hallowed_ be thy name
> _Santificado_ sea su nombre
> 
> And then in Spanish there's _consagrado _and _sacrosanto_


I forgot the word "to hallow", and hastily concocted a neologism, but it worked.


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## Sobakus

First to address the questions in the OP:
​1 + 2: The idea that all the translations of some word refer to the same looks like an extreme version of *semantic universalism* (loads of reading can be found in Google). This idea falls apart the moment you start trying to disentangle it - such as what exactly is "a common _signifié_" of an abstract concept that cannot be comprehensively described. I think semiotics in general is looked at with a lot of suspicion today - though this can result in outright close-minded ridicule. But semiotics has this strict distinction between language and thought at its core that is plainly erroneous. Granted, there plainly are universals in human language, including its very neurophysiolocal basis; but abstraction is clearly inseparable from language.​​3 + 4: You want to read on the concept of dynamic *translation equivalence*.​
I think your universalist impression is the result of Euro-Christianocentrism. The words you're talking about are so similar across European languages because all of these languages created these words to express and translate the same Christian concepts. It appears however that in this topic two distinct concepts have been established: 1. "inherently holy, sacred" and 2. "made, proclaimed to be holy, consecrated, sanctified, hallowed".

Already Classical Latin has no corresponding word for the former concept:

_*sacer*_ is connected with _*sancīre*_ "to decree, sanction, solemnly allow or forbid", and the adjective has the same semantic range - anything related to the awe of observance, to decrees and taboos. This awe can be positive or negative, so _*sacer* _can mean "inherently holy, sacred" and "damned, accursed, wicked"; probably the underlying meaning is "forfeit, given up to the gods".
_*sānctus *_means "made holy and inviolable by solemn decree", being the perfect participle of _sancīre._ It's also used as an epithet of gods and people, "awe-inspiring, venerable, pure, chaste etc".
There's also *(*_*cōn)secrātus* _"vowed, dedicated to the gods and thus made sacred, enjoying the gods' protection", from_ sacrāre_ "to make _sacer,_ to devote to the gods".
This clearly brings out how the Romans' relationship with the gods was that of mutual contractual obligation and scrupulous observance (= _religiō; cf. ob-lig-āre_). The god who presided over these contracts was creatively called _Sancus_ :-) Latin has no word meaning "religion".


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## Ben Jamin

As far as I understand the islamic term "haram" means both "forbidden by religion" and "protected, sacred". Is this correct?


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## ThomasK

I am sorry for my delay in answering but extremely interesting contribution, Sobakus. I can assure you: i try to be open-minded and what I "discovered" (for myself) about farming and the farming job freed me to some extent of semantic universalism.Christian, not sure. It might be Platonic as well, I guess (but of course Christianity integrated some neo-Platonic thinking into its thinking faith, I believe). Yet, I guess you will that we need some practical universalism, i.e., the assumption that we can refer to ...s (ideas, concepts, signifiés) that are common to all, to some extent at least. But I'll be in touch later again to work through/process/... your ideas.


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## ThomasK

I have been wondering about the basis of concepts, and especially one - if you can call it a concept - like "holy".

I am inclined to think that the "first people" were often impressed by "natural" things and events that they did not expect, that happened to them, that "impacted" them, that they did not understand. Like thunder and lightning, extreme weather, diseases. That got them, I guess, on the track of supernatural powers. And then, I think, there is something like a hypothesis referring to super-natural powers, maybe to some kind of transcendence (trans-scandance, beyond our understanding or something), deities, gods, magic forces, which seemed ambivalent: _mysterium tremendum et fascinosum (Rudolf Otto?)_. But in that context I guess "holy" is not being used, I agree, only "religious", i guess. Yet, it led to some kind of respect and awe imposing not touching it, keeping it separate, apart, etc., and so I think the concept (?) "holy" was nearby/.... Or...?


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## Ben Jamin

ThomasK said:


> I have been wondering about the basis of concepts, and especially one - if you can call it a concept - like "holy".


Why do you doubt whether "holy" can be a concept?


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## ThomasK

Very good question. I ought to have said "a universal concept". I referred to the reason in #1: when asking about the word "farmer" i came to realize that my "boer [farmer]" concept includes mixed farming (arable + cattle), but then it turned out not to be that easy: some foreign words split up the two, some distinguish between owner and worker [which we don't]... So I think I have to conclude that the concept as such as not as "clear-cut" as it seems. 
As a matter of fact Sobakus "suspected" me in #22 of semantic universalism, mainly inspired by "Euro-Christianocentrism". That was my starting-point, but not the only thing I wanted to investigate or examine. No, I was/ am looking for all kinds of aspect linked with the "non-universal concept" (?) 'holy'. As I explained in #25, I think transcendence (of some sort) could be a starting point of religion and then lead to some concept of holiness...  

But I am looking forward to corrections, additions, etc., in this regard.


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## fdb

Ben Jamin said:


> As far as I understand the islamic term "haram" means both "forbidden by religion" and "protected, sacred". Is this correct?


yes


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## fdb

Ben Jamin said:


> In Polish the word "święty" covers both "holy" and "sacred" in almost all contexts. In some contexts the words "święcony" (święcona woda/holy water), "uświęcony" , or "poświęcony" (all meaning "hallowed") may be used when describing objects or places.
> The word "święty" is a cognate of Latin "sanctus" and Avestan "spenta".


There is an ongoing debate about whether the Balto-Slavic words for "holy" are cognate with Indo-Iranian, or whether they represent an ancient borrowing from Old Iranian.


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## ThomasK

fdb said:


> yes





Ben Jamin said:


> As far as I understand the islamic term "haram" means both "forbidden by religion" and "protected, sacred". Is this correct?


@fdb Could you illustrate the use of haram meaning "holy". A harem does not suggest women are holy, I think ;-), but what combinations (collocations) could you give with _haram _meaning "holy"? I have just found Haram al-Sharif, where it is used a noun, meaning "sanctuary" but there is something strange according to Wikipedia: it means 

either something sacred to which access is not allowed to the people who are not in a state of purity or who are not initiated into the sacred knowledge; or, 
in direct contrast, to an evil and thus "sinful action that is forbidden to be done"
It always something set apart, also in Hebrew (kados) and Latin (sacer).


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## Platytude

I think @Ben Jamin meant _haraam _(opposite of _halaal_) not _haram _(inner court, shrine as in Haram al-Sharif). The complex around Kaaba is called Masjid al-Haraam.


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## Ihsiin

ThomasK said:


> @fdb Could you illustrate the use of haram meaning "holy". A harem does not suggest women are holy, I think ;-)



The older meaning of the root حرم relates to sanctity. The meaning relating to that which is forbidden comes from the idea that that which is sacred should not be violated/touched/seen (there is an ancient Semitic tradition of covering that which is sacred - see both the Ka’ba and the Ark of the Covenant). As such, the Arabic verb حرّم means both ‘to forbid’ and also ‘to sanctify’.

With regard to women, this relates to the meaning related to that which is forbidden. The Arabic word حَرَم referred to the women’s quarters of a building, as men were forbidden to enter. In many Arabic dialects the word shifted to refer to women in general.


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## Ben Jamin

Platytude said:


> I think @Ben Jamin meant _haraam _(opposite of _halaal_) not _haram _(inner court, shrine as in Haram al-Sharif). The complex around Kaaba is called Masjid al-Haraam.


I was refering to the spelling used for the word used by Urdu speakers, not Arabic. By the way, romanization of Arabic words can also vary.


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