# Pronunciation of ואני - ve-ani or va'ani (from Yehoram Gaon song)



## refiZ

So today I was listening to 'בפרדס ליד השוקת', and I heard the line

"
בין החורף והקיץ 
ואני כמותה. 
" 

and it sounds very clearly like, 'va-ani'.

I was a little confused, because I thought the pronunciation was, 've-ani', but I know that many singers are very careful with pronunciation so I googled 'va-ani', and found many instances of that.

Is this a formal rule with vav or a reflecting a different accent? (like how some Askhenazi singers in the US use the 's' sound for tav) He also sings, "vi-yaroket" so that is why I was curious if it was a rule with vav.

Thanks for all your help so far!


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## Drink

Yes, this is a formal rule with vav (and some other proclitics). If the following vowel is a chataf vowel, then the vav takes the corresponding non-chataf vowel instead of a shva. Examples: וַאֲנִי (va-'ani), וָחֳדָשִים (vo-chodashim), וֶאֱמֶת (ve-'emet, notice the segol rather than shva). This rule is impossible to understand without knowing nikkud.


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## refiZ

Awesome! It makes a bit more sense. However, it seems a little counter to the transformation from the 'v' sound to the 'u' sound (I think before a shwa), which seems to try to reduce redundancy in vowel sounds. In this case, it seems to make the sounds more redundant.

Since this is a formal rule, are there instances that are much more preserved/common in normal speech? Would it sound overly pedantic if I tried to follow this in regular speech?


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## Drink

refiZ said:


> Awesome! It makes a bit more sense. However, it seems a little counter to the transformation from the 'v' sound to the 'u' sound (I think before a shwa), which seems to try to reduce redundancy in vowel sounds. In this case, it seems to make the sounds more redundant.
> 
> Since this is a formal rule, are there instances that are much more preserved/common in normal speech? Would it sound overly pedantic if I tried to follow this in regular speech?



The vav becomes "u" before shva and also before labial consonants (בומ"ף). This is not to reduce redundancy, but (in the case of the shva) because you cannot have two vocal shva's in a row (in the case of the labial consonants it is simply historical assimilation).

With regard to common speech, a native speaker would give a better answer, but I think that va-'ani might be one of the most likely cases to be heard in common speech. In general, it is very rare, since most Israelis are not even aware of which words begin with chataf vowels.


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## origumi

The wider rule is: no schwa-na` before schwa-na`. Ḥataf-something is treated as schwa-na` in this regard. Therefore אֲנִי gets "va", where the vowel is influenced by the following ḥaṭaf pataḥ. Compare to וִירוּשָׁלַיִם vi-Yrushalayim < *ve-Yerushalayim.


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## DieHigh

You can find a table with the nikud rules for ו' החיבור in here (in Hebrew)

In common speech, the vav is mostly pronouced as "ve" and it always fits. I don't know if "oo" is commonly used, but it doesn't sound very strange to me (as long as it's compatible with the rules of course); I even use it sometimes, especially when reading aloud. "Va" is _very _rare.


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## refiZ

Quick question.

Does this also apply to "ש" when used as a conjunction?

Would the transformation be, "sha'ani" and "sha'anahnu"?


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## Drink

refiZ said:


> Quick question.
> 
> Does this also apply to "ש" when used as a conjunction?
> 
> Would the transformation be, "sha'ani" and "sha'anahnu"?



No, because the vowel under ש is a segol, not a shva, and so it does not change. However, there are some instances in the Bible where ש has a patach or qamatz, following the same rules as the vowel of ה ("the").


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## refiZ

Oh ok. Thank you for the clarification!


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## rushalaim

refiZ said:


> Quick question.
> 
> Does this also apply to "ש" when used as a conjunction?
> 
> Would the transformation be, "sha'ani" and "sha'anahnu"?


Yes, there is such a case in Chabad-siddur, for example, in the prayer: Modim anahhnu lakh sh*a*Atah.. שָׁאַתָּה But I don't understand why "sha" here took Qamats instead of Pattahh?


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> Yes, this is a formal rule with vav (and some other proclitics). If the following vowel is a chataf vowel, then the vav takes the corresponding non-chataf vowel instead of a shva. Examples: וַאֲנִי (va-'ani), וָחֳדָשִים (vo-chodashim), וֶאֱמֶת (ve-'emet, notice the segol rather than shva). This rule is impossible to understand without knowing nikkud.


How to pronounce "ve-" if it precedes "hu", like "vuHu"? וֻהוּא


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> Yes, there is such a case in Chabad-siddur, for example, in the prayer: Modim anahhnu lakh sh*a*Atah.. שָׁאַתָּה But I don't understand why "sha" here took Qamats instead of Pattahh?



See my previous post above.



rushalaim said:


> How to pronounce "ve-" if it precedes "hu", like "vuHu"? וֻהוּא



No, your quote from my post only applies to chataf vowels. When followed by a non-chataf vowel, it remains a shva.


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## rushalaim

DieHigh said:


> You can find a table with the nikud rules for ו' החיבור in here (in Hebrew)
> 
> In common speech, the vav is mostly pronouced as "ve" and it always fits. I don't know if "oo" is commonly used, but it doesn't sound very strange to me (as long as it's compatible with the rules of course); I even use it sometimes, especially when reading aloud. "Va" is _very _rare.


Why that article says just about 4 letters? Torah gives more examples: וּקְשַׁרְתָּם or וּכְתַבְתָּם or וּלְעָבְדוֹ or וּדְבָשׁ or וּנְתָנָהּ ? I cannot grasp here any rule why Vav is וְ but sometimes וּ before the same letters?


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> Why that article says just about 4 letters? Torah gives more examples: וּקְשַׁרְתָּם or וּכְתַבְתָּם or וּלְעָבְדוֹ or וּדְבָשׁ or וּנְתָנָהּ ? I cannot grasp here any rule why Vav is וְ but sometimes וּ before the same letters?



That's not because of the letter, but because of the following shva. Remember the general rule that there cannot be more than one shva in a row at the beginning of a word, and cannot be more than two shvas in a row in the middle of a word. Chataf vowels also count as shvas for this rule. This rule essentially drives almost all the vowel changes in the prefixes that have a shva.


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## amikama

rushalaim said:


> Why that article says just about 4 letters? Torah gives more examples: וּקְשַׁרְתָּם or וּכְתַבְתָּם or וּלְעָבְדוֹ or וּדְבָשׁ or וּנְתָנָהּ ? I cannot grasp here any rule why Vav is וְ but sometimes וּ before the same letters?


וְ /ve-/ becomes וּ /u-/ (not /vu-/) in two cases (and in these cases only):
* before a shva
* before one of the letters ב ו מ פ (e.g. וּמֹשֶׁה /umoshe/)

All of your examples begin with a shva, therefore ve- becomes u- in these examples.

הוא neither begins with a shva nor with ב ו מ פ, therefore והוא cannot be pronounced /vuhu/ or /uhu/.

The rule Drink quoted above refers only to hatafim: vav before a hataf takes the hataf's vowel. אֲנִי begins with a hataf patah, therefore it's וַאֲנִי /va'ani/ with a patah under the vav.
There are only three hatafim: hataf kamatz (pronounced /o/), hataf patah (/a/) and hataf segol (/e/). No hataf is pronounced /u/ (hataf shuruk or hataf kubutz doesn't exist), so vav before a hataf can never be pronounced /vu-/ or /u-/.

Edit: better font to make the nikkud legible.


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## rushalaim

amikama said:


> וְ /ve-/ becomes וּ /u-/ (not /vu-/) in two cases (and in these cases only):
> * before a shva
> * before one of the letters ב ו מ פ (e.g. וּמֹשֶׁה /umoshe/)
> 
> All of your examples begin with a shva, therefore ve- becomes u- in these examples.
> 
> הוא neither begins with a shva nor with ב ו מ פ, therefore והוא cannot be pronounced /vuhu/ or /uhu/.
> 
> The rule Drink quoted above refers only to hatafim: vav before a hataf takes the hataf's vowel. אֲנִי begins with a hataf patah, therefore it's וַאֲנִי /va'ani/ with a patah under the vav.
> There are only three hatafim: hataf kamatz (pronounced /o/), hataf patah (/a/) and hataf segol (/e/). No hataf is pronounced /u/ (hataf shuruk or hataf kubutz doesn't exist), so vav before a hataf can never be pronounced /vu-/ or /u-/.


I cannot understand why Torah in Exodus 13:6 uses *וּבַיּוֹם* though there isn't any Sh'va before Vav?


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> I cannot understand why Torah in Exodus 13:6 uses *וּבַיּוֹם* though there isn't any Sh'va before Vav?



Maybe you should read better. See the two different rules that amikama gave.


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> Maybe you should read better. See the two different rules that amikama gave.


I reread, thanks, my mistake.
Would it be a great mistake if I'll say "vaQashartam" וָקַשָׁרְתָּם ?
I mean, that Sh'va is just a sign of colloquial language like _Aramit_? And when someone will try to sing something aloud he must avoid any Sh'va? Just try to cry aloud וּקְשַׁרְתָּם the word! It's hard to do.


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> I reread, thanks, my mistake.
> Would it be a great mistake if I'll say "vaQashartam" וָקַשָׁרְתָּם ?
> I mean, that Dagesh is just a sign of colloquial language like _Aramit_? And when someone will try to sing something aloud he must avoid any Dageshin?



I have no idea what you are trying to say, but וָקַשָׁרְתָּם is totally wrong. It is וּקְשַׁרְתָּם (uqshartám), and maybe you could get away with colloquially saying וְקָשַׁרְתָּם (veqashártam), but that's unlikely because direct object suffixes are not used in colloquial language anyway.


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## rushalaim

Thank you all, you helped me to solve that problem with Niqqud.


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