# I tried to access that website today but it wasn't loading.



## yuechu

大家好！

I was thinking of how to translate the following sentence into Chinese today: "I tried to access that website today but it wasn't loading." Would anyone know how to translate it?
Thanks!


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## Oswinw011

Hi, I'd say '我今天试了下访问那个网站,但是它打不开'。


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## yuechu

Hey, Oswin! Thanks so much for your help!


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## SimonTsai

I would expect '訪問' to be used exclusively for people and not for inanimate objects such as Web sites.

By the Web site not loading, I guess that you meant that you could not access it whatever the reason was:

Maybe you were disconnected to your Wi-Fi network;
maybe you were simply not allowed to access that site;
maybe there was a problem with the server that hosts it; or
maybe the site did not exist any longer.
In any case, you could say, '我今天試著到那網站, 但連不上去'.


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## SuperXW

SimonTsai said:


> I would expect '訪問' to be used exclusively for people and not for inanimate objects such as Web sites.
> 
> In any case, you could say, '我今天試著到那網站, 但連不上去'.


地域区别吧，在大陆“访问网站”是习惯用法，大概是由英语visit the website直译来的。
但“访问”在大陆的用法也比较正式。口语中会说“开/进/上xx网站”之类的。（很少用“到”。）


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## SimonTsai

'開網站' can sound as if you (created and) published a Web site:

【西元 2002 年 05 月 02 日】​今天上午副總統呂秀蓮應邀參加 Taiwan-for-WHO 開站儀式暨記者會，在會上期許政府部門及民間組織共同為加入世界衛生組織這一目標付出心力；同時提醒各方：切勿落入對岸「一個中國」的陷阱，切勿矮化自我；臺灣加入世界衛生組織的資格無庸置疑；臺灣的醫療實力，世界有目共睹。​


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## yuechu

Thanks, SimonTsai and SuperXW! 

Oh, just a quick question: What does 去 mean in "我今天試著到那網站, 但連不上*去*"? Is it optional in this context?


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## SimonTsai

I am afraid that I am not very sure of its function. I guess that it is like the one in '你上哪兒去了'.


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## corner1912

I'd prefer 打不开、连不上（去 is optional）、上不去、没上去
打不开、连不上、上不去：you have tried to but you could not access to the website
没上去 is an objective fact


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## ovaltine888

SimonTsai said:


> '開網站' can sound as if you (created and) published a Web site:
> 
> 【西元 2002 年 05 月 02 日】​今天上午副總統呂秀蓮應邀參加 Taiwan-for-WHO 開站儀式暨記者會，在會上期許政府部門及民間組織共同為加入世界衛生組織這一目標付出心力；同時提醒各方：切勿落入對岸「一個中國」的陷阱，切勿矮化自我；臺灣加入世界衛生組織的資格無庸置疑；臺灣的醫療實力，世界有目共睹。​



It is supposed to be "打开", not “开”.

But from my point of view, “打开” does not really collocate well with "网站". I prefer “打开网页” which means "load the webpage", or “打开网站首页” (load the frontpage of the website), or “访问网站”(visit the website).

I think people sometimes mix up the concepts of “网站”(website) and “网页”(webpage).


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## SuperXW

"开"可能不是很正式，语境不对还可能造成歧义，但口语中还是常说，因为一般来说，“开不开“”开不了”和“打不开”似乎是可以互换的。


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## SimonTsai

Technically, considering that we do not ever say '打開火車站' (or '打開加油站'), it is horribly wrong to say '打開網站'. But admittedly, most of us every now and then, I think, confuse Web sites with Web pages. So in real life, it is actually tolerable in causal speech; '我網站打不開' is possible.


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## SuperXW

SimonTsai said:


> Technically, considering that we do not ever say '打開火車站' (or '打開加油站'), it is horribly wrong to say '打開網站'. But admittedly, most of us every now and then, I think, confuse Web sites with Web pages. So in real life, it is actually tolerable in causal speech; '我網站打不開' is possible.


也没有什么horribly wrong的，这个语言演变还是能找到一定逻辑的：
逻辑1：
打开书——打开页面——打开以"网页"形式呈现的网站
逻辑2：
打开一份文件——打开电子文件——打开电子文件的一种载体：浏览器——打开浏览器中呈现的内容：网站
Website和webpage被混淆，是因为开了网站，实际看到的就是网页；要看网页，通常也得打开一个网站；两者几乎没法割离。


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## SimonTsai

A Web page (object) is to a Web site (place) as a book (object) is to a library (place), not really as a page is to a book. While we can open a book at a particular page, we will probably not open a library and get a book:

請同學打開 (課本) 第 123 頁。今天我們要討論的是莫言的代表作之一〈檀香刑〉。
有興趣的同學課後不妨到圖書館，找一本類似的書打開來看看。


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## SuperXW

按字面的传统概念来说，站site是一个地点，和open打开不匹配。
但实际上在用户意识里，网站website和传统地点的区别，*大于动词不匹配的程度*：网站不是一个实际的地点/空间，移动到这个地点不需要位移，只需要打开浏览器/手机/程序，内容也不包括图书馆空间中的桌椅电灯，*只有*网页，所以打开这个动词被接受了。
或者这样说：在现实中，打开网页和打开网站的*动作基本等同*，其相似度比网站和真实地点（如图书馆）的*相似度更高*。"网站和网页"其实更接近"书本和书页"的关系，而非"图书馆和藏书"的关系。

BTW，在遇到习惯用法与传统用法有矛盾的时候，我倾向于尝试解释其理由，而不是批判大部分人的用法。
否则“打开手机”这一动作恐怕更加有歧义，更值得研讨，英文也不能用"open"。


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## Oswinw011

SimonTsai said:


> A Web page (object) is to a Web site (place) as a book (object) is to a library (place), not really as a page is to a book. While we can open a book at a particular page, we will probably not open a library and get a book:


I did a double take when seeing this interesting view that attracted me to delve into the nuances between 打開網站 and 打开网页. My conclusion is that I'd prefer to avoid using either in formal writing in favour of 加载網站 as in yuechu's original question; both of them work, as you mentioned earlier, in casual talks.

Loading in most cases is translated into 打开 or 加载. And when we talk about 打開網站 or 加载網站, we conjure up this image: clicking the URL linking to a website and a set of web pages loading(i.e., some websites return more than one web page a time). The problem with 打開火車站 is that the scene is impossible in real life. But a website can refer to "a set of related web pages located under a single domain name"(WIKI) and it's possible to 打開 them as you click open a folder that contains many documents. So the expression 打開網站 doesn't jar on my ear.


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## SimonTsai

SimonTsai said:


> So in real life, it is actually tolerable in causal speech; '我網站打不開' is possible.


I thought for a while and now would like to substitute 'acceptable' for 'tolerable' in the text above. '我網站打不開' is actually idiomatic, although technically wrong, or dubious.


SuperXW said:


> 倾向于尝试解释其理由，而不是批判大部分人的用法。


I think that both of us know very well the whys and wherefores, and that in daily life, we are more descriptivist than prescriptivist. The difference between us is that on formal occasions, I tend to be more careful, or pedantic; I can be judgmental sometimes and prefer to play it safe, when controversy may arise, by adhering to the tradition. This is also why I am adapting to 'Web site'.


> 网站不是一个实际的地点/空间，移动到这个地点不需要位移，


When we leave a Web site and go to another, we are moving on the Web, moving in cyberspace.


> 打开浏览器/手机/程序


打開瀏覽器 ==> In this case '打開' corresponds to 'open' in the sense of 'to take the action required to begin using'.
打開手　機 ==> The same explanation applies. In general, we say '打開機器', which is idiomatic.
打開電　腦 ==> We name computers so just to compare them to the human brain. We all know that they are devices.
打開程　序 ==> I am not very familiar with this use of '打開', which seems to mean 'to start'.

*EDIT:* By 'the same explanation applies', I meant that '打開手機' is to take the action required to begin using your smart phone. I do know that in English, 'turn on' is the right verb to use with smart phones.


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## SuperXW

SimonTsai said:


> When we leave a Web site and go to another, we are moving on the Web, moving in cyberspace.


我觉得我上贴已经讲得比较明白了，但你没有理会我的黑体字……
传统意义的“移动”moving、“到”go to，都必须做出空间位移，一直到了数码时代（有网站的时代），才有了“数码空间”cyberspace和虚拟的moving这种概念。你需要默认接受这类新概念，才可以选择用“到”搭配"网站"。
但其实际动作“走路”与“点鼠标”存在巨大差异，*远大于*“打开浏览器/网页”和“打开网站”之间的动作差异。
"网站"和“图书馆”的实际区别，还有“网站”和“网页”的紧密关联，之前我也说了，不再重复。
下面再补充“打开”的合理性。


SimonTsai said:


> 1. 打開瀏覽器 ==> In this case '打開' corresponds to 'open' in the sense of 'to take the action required to begin using'.
> 2. 打開手　機 ==> The same explanation applies. In general, we say '打開機器', which is idiomatic.
> 3. 打開電　腦 ==> We name computers so just to compare them to the human brain. We all know that they are devices.
> 4. 打開程　序 ==> I am not very familiar with this use of '打開', which seems to mean 'to start'.


1. 既然“打开”有'to take the action required to begin using'的意项，为什么不能应用到"网站"上呢？
现在我更加怀疑是台湾习惯用法有区别了。请问台湾可以说“使用网站”吗？例子。
“网站”从词义上说是一个“空间”，但本质也可以是一个“（信息交互的）工具”，所以也会被“使用”。

2. 3. 这两个例子应该也是工业时代后的新概念，“打开某物品”的传统含义只是物理性的打开，所以至今“打开手机/电脑”仍有歧义。但你既然可以接受这两种歧义搭配，我不知为何你觉得“打开网站”那么难接受。

4. "程序"台湾大概叫“应用程式”，包括windows、office、浏览器等。台湾应该也是用“打开”吧？还是说“启动”？


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## SimonTsai

唯恐英文不好，辭不達意，以下全以中文回覆：


SuperXW said:


> 你没有理会我的黑体字……


我有看你在上篇貼文用粗體強調的部分。你說網站雖然字面上是個站，也可以比為書：從架上拿下書，看到封面 (首頁)、目錄 (選單)，往後翻看到內頁。進網站是為了看網頁，就像打開書是為了看內頁；進入網站勢必打開首頁，因此你說「打開」有理。

這些我都同意，因此我在上則回覆，將「勉強可接受 (tolerable)」改為「沒甚麼問題 (acceptable)」，將「大錯特錯 (horribly wrong)」改為「不對，或有爭議 (wrong, or dubious)」；在日常生活中，這說法我不以為錯。

但日常歸日常，在正式的場合，我總希望盡善盡美，兼顧實質與形式。「打開網站」這說法，重實質而輕形式；「進網站」和「上網站」，實質與形式兼顧。我們可以將網站想作一本書，也可以將網站想作一個點；這個點只存在於虛擬空間，在錯綜複雜的巨網上。 (「進 + 地點」和「上 + 地點」都是中文固有的表達方式：我們「進大廳」休息會兒，晚點兒再出來「上館子」吃飯。)


> 请问台湾可以说 “使用网站” 吗？


日常交談我沒異議，在正式的場合我會避免這樣的說法。但這只是我個人的意見：

我們會蒐集您使用網站時所提供的個人資料；這可能包含您的姓名、性別、信用卡資料等。(591 房屋交易)
在做網站分析時，工作階段能真實反映訪客使用網站的狀況，但前提是你要瞭解工作階段的定義。 (Harris 先生)



> “网站” 从词义上说是一个 “空间”，但本质也可以是一个 “(信息交互的) 工具”。


我能理解，但，從這個角度來看，我會說 WordReference 是一個平臺而非工具。此刻你我站在平臺上，發表各自的看法。我們使用的工具是手機或電腦，還有瀏覽器。沒有這些工具，我們沒辦法來到這平臺上，寫下自己的意見，與人交流。


> “打开某物品” 的传统含义只是物理性的打开，所以至今 “打开手机/电脑” 仍有歧义。


「打開」的「開」原先似乎只有「開啟」的意思。小時候 Nokia 稱霸；聽到「打開手機」，我的反應是將原先對折的手機打開，像打開便當盒般，然後才開機。現在用智慧型手機，「打開手機」便省去了「開啟」這一步驟；「打開」的「開」只剩下「啟動」的意思：我們「開」燈、「開」電風扇。「打」字可和多種動詞並用：我們「打」滾、「打」顫。


> 但你既然可以接受这两种歧义搭配，我不知为何你觉得 “打开网站” 那么难接受。


一個詞有歧義，意味這個詞有多個含意。「打開筆記型電腦」的「開」有歧義，「打開網站」的「開」沒有。「打開網站」的「開」同「打開網頁」的「開」，同「翻開書」的「開」；網站不是機具，沒辦法啟動。


> "程序" 台湾大概叫“应用程式”，包括 Windows、Office、浏览器等。台湾应该也是用 “打开” 吧？还是说 “启动”？


我以為程序的英文是 process，應用程式的則是 application (programme)，沒想到對岸的程序竟是這兒的應用程式。

應用程式的話，沒錯，我們通常說「打開」：「打開」Word、「打開」Excel、「打開」Avast Secure Browser。我們說「打開」，因為我們將這些程式想作機具。說「(使) 用」也可以，「啟動」也行。


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