# Crimean Gothic Stap (Sheep)



## CyrusSH

This is an interesting word, is this from Iranian or Germanic?

It is good to mention, from Persian _Shapan/Chupan_ (sheep protector), there are Crimean Tatar _çoban_, Hindi _čupan_, Greek _tsobanis_, Russian _čaban_, Georgian _čobani_, Uzbek _chopon_, Albanian _çoban_, Romanian _cioban_, ...


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## ahvalj

_Stap _is "capra", i. e. "she-goat".

Ganina in _Ганина НА · 2011 · Крымско-готский язык:_ 150–151 writes that the widespread explanation of this Crimean-Gothic word links it with the migratory shepherd word for "he-goat": Persian _čapiš_, Ossetic _cæw_, Hungarian _csáp_, Polish, Slovak, Macedonian and Ukrainian _cap_, Czech _cáp_, Romanian _țap_, Albanian _cjap_, Italian dialectal _zappo _(I have added examples from other publications as well). Ganina suggests that the Gothic _st_ may be a substitution of the alien _ʦ_ (if this substitution is not made by Busbecq himself).

Another explanation suggests that it is a European (not necessarily originally Indo-European) word, and _ʦ_ originated from *_kʲ_ in some extinct Balkanic _satəm_ language. This is based on the similarity with _*kapr-_ in various _centum_ languages: Latin _caper_ "castrated he-goat" and _capra_ "she-goat" with further cognates in Umbrian, the Irish _caera_ "ship" < *_capera_, Greek _κάπρος_ "wild boar", Viking Norse _hafr_ "he-goat". Celtic also has this word with the voiced stops: *_gabros_ > Old Irish _gabor_ etc.


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> _Stap _is "capra", i. e. "she-goat".
> 
> Ganina in _Ганина НА · 2011 · Крымско-готский язык:_ 150–151 writes that the widespread explanation of this Crimean-Gothic word links it with the migratory shepherd word for "he-goat": Persian _čapiš_, Ossetic _cæw_, Hungarian _csáp_, Polish, Slovak, Macedonian and Ukrainian _cap_, Czech _cáp_, Romanian _țap_, Albanian _cjap_, Italian dialectal _zappo _(I have added examples from other publications as well). Ganina suggests that the Gothic _st_ may be a substitution of the alien _ʦ_ (if this substitution is not made by Busbecq himself).
> 
> Another explanation suggests that it is a European (not necessarily originally Indo-European) word, and _ʦ_ originated from *_kʲ_ in some extinct Balkanic _satəm_ language. This is based on the similarity with _*kapr-_ in various _centum_ languages: Latin _caper_ "castrated he-goat" and _capra_ "she-goat" with further cognates in Umbrian, the Irish _caera_ "ship" < *_capera_, Greek _κάπρος_ "wild boar", Viking Norse _hafr_ "he-goat". Celtic also has this word with the voiced stops: *_gabros_ > Old Irish _gabor_ etc.



What is your conclusion?


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## fdb

Persian has (at least) two similar-sounding words for “shepherd”: šubān and čōpān.

Middle and New Persian šubān derives regularly from Iranian *fšu-pāna- “sheep protector”, whence also Sogdian xwšpʼn /xušpān/. fšu- is the zero-grade form of pasu- “small animals”, as in Avestan fšu-, pasu-, Sanskrit kṣu-, paśu, Middle Persian pah, Bactrian ποσο/pus/, all meaning “sheep”, cognate with Latin pecus, German Vieh, IE *peḱu-.

čōpān is presumably an early Persian loan from Turkish, which in turn had it from Sogdian or some other Eastern Iranian language. Neither the č- nor the voiceless -p- can be explained from a purely Persian point of view.

There is also a very wide-spread Turkish word čopan meaning “village headman” or the like, which passed from Proto-Bulgar also to Byzantine Greek as ζουπάνος. It occurs as σωπανο/tsōpān/ in a Bactrian text dated AD 578, so from the period of Turkish domination, and as Khotanese chaupaṃ. It is not clear whether čōpān “shepherd” and čōpān “village headman” are the same word or two different words; it has been suggested that the latter is neither Turkish nor Iranian, but a borrowing from Hephthalite.


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## Ben Jamin

fdb said:


> ...
> There is also a very wide-spread Turkish word čopan meaning “village headman” or the like, which passed from Proto-Bulgar also to Byzantine Greek as ζουπάνος. It occurs as σωπανο/sōpān/ in a Bactrian text dated AD 578, so from the period of Turkish domination, and as Khotanese chaupaṃ. It is not clear whether čōpān “shepherd” and čōpān “village headman” are the same word or two different words; it has been suggested that the latter is neither Turkish nor Iranian, but a borrowing from Hephthalite.


It seems as if Polish "żupan" (a royal official) comes from  σωπανο or ζουπάνος, possibly through Hungarian.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Persian has (at least) two similar-sounding words for “shepherd”: šubān and čōpān.
> 
> Middle and New Persian šubān derives regularly from Iranian *fšu-pāna- “sheep protector”, whence also Sogdian xwšpʼn /xušpān/. fšu- is the zero-grade form of pasu- “small animals”, as in Avestan fšu-, pasu-, Sanskrit kṣu-, paśu, Middle Persian pah, Bactrian ποσο/pus/, all meaning “sheep”, cognate with Latin pecus, German Vieh, IE *peḱu-.
> 
> čōpān is presumably an early Persian loan from Turkish, which in turn had it from Sogdian or some other Eastern Iranian language. Neither the č- nor the voiceless -p- can be explained from a purely Persian point of view.
> 
> There is also a very wide-spread Turkish word čopan meaning “village headman” or the like, which passed from Proto-Bulgar also to Byzantine Greek as ζουπάνος. It occurs as σωπανο/tsōpān/ in a Bactrian text dated AD 578, so from the period of Turkish domination, and as Khotanese chaupaṃ. It is not clear whether čōpān “shepherd” and čōpān “village headman” are the same word or two different words; it has been suggested that the latter is neither Turkish nor Iranian, but a borrowing from Hephthalite.



And what about Old Persian čapiš?


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## sotos

Many greek sources claim that "zoupanos" or "tsopanis" (as is pronounced today in Greece) is of Slavic  origin. May I just note the sound similarity  _zou - ζώο_ (animal) and _pano_ (lit. _top, head_, but also _care-taker_). Compare with byzantine _katepano_   (military leader). Any meaning as "village head" may be explained through the organization of the sepherd nomadic communities of _tseligato_ or _zadrouga_, where the head of the "village" is also the master sepherd. For a similar reason, the w. _tseligas_ (the head of _tseligato_ community) means simply "sepherd" in new Greek.


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> And what about Old Persian čapiš?



čapiš means “young goat” in New Persian (not Old Persian).


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## CyrusSH

And what do you think about the relation between these words and English _sheep_ and Middle Low German _schap_?


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## Ben Jamin

CyrusSH said:


> And what do you think about the relation between these words and English _sheep_ and Middle Low German _schap_?


From Etymology on line:
sheep (n.) 


ruminant mammal, Old English sceap, scep, from West Germanic *skæpan (cognates: Old Saxon scap, Old Frisian skep, Middle Low Germanschap, Middle Dutch scaep, Dutch schaap, Old High German scaf, German Schaf), of unknown origin. Not found in Scandinavian (Danish hasfaar for "sheep") or Gothic (which uses lamb), and with no known cognates outside Germanic. The more usual Indo-European word for the animal is represented in English by ewe.


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## Scholiast

Greetings all


ahvalj said:


> the widespread explanation of this Crimean-Gothic word links it with the migratory shepherd word for "he-goat": Persian _čapiš_, Ossetic _cæw_, Hungarian _csáp_, Polish, Slovak, Macedonian and Ukrainian _cap_, Czech _cáp_, Romanian _țap_, Albanian _cjap_, Italian dialectal _zappo_


Has anyone pointed out the (old and unusual, but still respectable) English "tup" (for "ram")?
Σ


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## fdb

“Etymonline” reflects what is currently the majority view, namely that English “sheep” does not have any convincing cognates outside of West Germanic. But there have been other suggestions. The connection with a supposed Skythian word for “young male goat”, *čap, has its difficulties. First from a semantic point of view: “sheep” and “goats” are different animals, all the more so if this is a “migratory shepherd word” (as our friend ahvalj puts it); shepherds, at least, ought to know the difference between sheep and goats. Then, to stay specifically with the Iranian material: Ossetic цӕу ‎ - that is: Digor /tsʌw/, Iron /sʌw/) – cannot very well derive from *čap; for this one would expect */tsʌf/. In Persian one expects *čab (unless it is a recent loanword); moreover one needs to ask where the –iš in čapiš is supposed to come from. Of course, čapiš cannot possibly come from pasu-.

If “sheep”, “Schaf” etc. do have relatives outside of West Germanic, a more likely trail to pursue would be to look at IE words for “shearing, scraping”, like *skab(h)- as in English “shave”, German “schaben”, Latin “scabere”, as some scholars have suggested.


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## Scholiast

fdb said:


> shepherds, at least, ought to know the difference between sheep and goats


So should goatherds. (Sorry, couldn't resist that one).
Σ


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## Ben Jamin

Scholiast said:


> So should goatherds. (Sorry, couldn't resist that one).
> Σ


Well, the English speaking word don't distnguish between Cervus (Hirsch/cerf) and Capreolus (Reh/chevreuil). Other animal names have also changed from animal to animal in history of the language.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Persian has (at least) two similar-sounding words for “shepherd”: šubān and čōpān.


About the first one what do you think about it: http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/epsd?q=^cuba$&x=epsd

Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian *šuba* "shepherd; herder"


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## fdb

If you look carefully at that link you will see that the Sumerian word for “shepherd” was sipad, but it was sometimes written with the nearly homophonous sign ŠUBA, which actually means “stone”. sipad does not sound anything like Old Iranian fšupāna-.


When you have time you might want to read this: http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm


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## lindi

CyrusSH said:


> This is an interesting word, is this from Iranian or Germanic?
> 
> It is good to mention, from Persian _Shapan/Chupan_ (sheep protector), there are Crimean Tatar _çoban_, Hindi _čupan_, Greek _tsobanis_, Russian _čaban_, Georgian _čobani_, Uzbek _chopon_, Albanian _çoban_, Romanian _cioban_, ...



in alanian used "bari" and "çoban", depends from the regions.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> “Etymonline” reflects what is currently the majority view, namely that English “sheep” does not have any convincing cognates outside of West Germanic. But there have been other suggestions. The connection with a supposed Skythian word for “young male goat”, *čap, has its difficulties. First from a semantic point of view: “sheep” and “goats” are different animals, all the more so if this is a “migratory shepherd word” (as our friend ahvalj puts it); shepherds, at least, ought to know the difference between sheep and goats. Then, to stay specifically with the Iranian material: Ossetic цӕу ‎ - that is: Digor /tsʌw/, Iron /sʌw/) – cannot very well derive from *čap; for this one would expect */tsʌf/. In Persian one expects *čab (unless it is a recent loanword); moreover one needs to ask where the –iš in čapiš is supposed to come from. Of course, čapiš cannot possibly come from pasu-.
> 
> If “sheep”, “Schaf” etc. do have relatives outside of West Germanic, a more likely trail to pursue would be to look at IE words for “shearing, scraping”, like *skab(h)- as in English “shave”, German “schaben”, Latin “scabere”, as some scholars have suggested.



Why you don't talk about Persian *shu* (sheep)?! I think it is clear that this word differs from Persian *shap/shab* (night), so other than _shupan_ (shepherd), we have also *shugah*, *shualak*, ...

https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/شوغا
https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/شوالک-1

شوغا. [ ش َ / شُو ] (اِ مرکب ) حظیره ، یعنی جای گوسفندان . (صحاح الفرس ). حصارو محوطه ای را گویند که شبها گاوان و گوسفندان و چهارپایان دیگر در آنجا باشند. (برهان ). شبغا یعنی جای شب گوسپندان و شوگا نیز گفته اند. (فرهنگ رشیدی ). همان شبغا یعنی شب جای ، اصل در این لغت شب گاه است و شو تبدیل شب است . (انجمن آرا). جای شب بودن گوسفندان و شوگا نیز گفته اند. (فرهنگ اسدی ). خبک . آغل . (حاشیه ٔ فرهنگ اسدی ). غول . نغل . (یادداشت مؤلف ) :
چو گرگ دزد گیرد قصد شوغا
شبان اندر شبان افتد به غوغا.

What do you think about it? As you read *shugah* just means "sheepfold" but it says the word means "place for the night" (shab-gah), is it true?


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## fdb

I am honestly not sure whether شوغا is a dialect form of šaβ-gā(h) “place of (spending the) night”, or if it is šu-γā(h) < *fšu-gāϑu- “sheep place”. I would be happy with either.


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## ahvalj

It's worth adding that in Slavic this word _(cap~cáp)_ can't be older than the 7th century since it is the time when the sound _ʦ_ began to emerge as a result of the second and third palatalizations. The Czech long _á _vs. the Slovak short _a_ suggest a late Common Slavic acute _ā, _which is strange since in all the other languages the _a_ is short (Italian even has the long _p_).


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