# Liberal ?



## argieguy

As regard political tendencies if you are a "Liberal" in Argentina it means you are right handed that is to say you are in favour of  freedom of market, no state intervention, you are more conservative in your ideas ( No abortion, No respect for sexual minorities,etc), very religious(mainly catholicism). I understand that this idea of Liberalism doesn`t mean the same in the USA or UK . Can anybody confirm me this ( or not)? THKS.


----------



## ILT

Hi argieguy:

Since this is more about politics than language, I'm moving this thread to the Culture Forum.

But I would suggest googling "liberal+englad+politics" and "liberal+politics+USA".

Greetings


----------



## timpeac

A very similar topic has already been discussed here -

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=41575&highlight=liberal


----------



## cirrus

argieguy said:
			
		

> As regard political tendencies if you are a "Liberal" in Argentina it means you are right handed that is to say you are in favour of freedom of market, no state intervention, you are more conservative in your ideas ( No abortion, No respect for sexual minorities,etc), very religious(mainly catholicism). I understand that this idea of Liberalism doesn`t mean the same in the USA or UK . Can anybody confirm me this ( or not)? THKS.


 
In the UK liberal these days means progressive.  The liberals in the UK were amongst the first to support moves to legalise abortion and homosexuality.  

The complication may have to do with the fact that liberal in a sense of economy often means the very things you mentioned - market freedom, absence of state intervention.

It would be so much easier if we could learn from German where they say left liberal and rights liberal to get over this confusion.


----------



## argieguy

yes, we also use the term "progressive" here nowadays for those who stand up for the ideas you mentioned. What`s more, the government in power is said to be "progressive", but in my copuntry you can not say  progressives are liberals. THey would kill you! On the other hand if liberals are called "LEFT LIBERALS" as in Germany, they would kill you too! They hate each other! What a confussion! Well, Politics and Politicians are complicated per se.


----------



## rob.returns

argieguy said:
			
		

> As regard political tendencies if you are a "Liberal" in Argentina it means you are right handed that is to say you are in favour of freedom of market, no state intervention, *you are more conservative in your ideas ( No abortion, No respect for sexual minorities,etc), very religious(mainly catholicism).* I understand that this idea of Liberalism doesn`t mean the same in the USA or UK . Can anybody confirm me this ( or not)? THKS.


 
Really? Liberal with conservative ideas. I find it weird but anyway thats in Argentina. I think, other democratic county would find it not that way. Do we have other foreros from other country who would agree with argieguy?


----------



## Everness

Hope this helps.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-36,GGLG:en&oi=defmore&q=define:liberal


----------



## BasedowLives

liberal can carry different connotations as the context is changed.

I think that the most commonly used context is that of Social Idealogy
liberals are generally socially liberal.
conservatives are socially conservative.


----------



## LV4-26

argieguy said:
			
		

> As regard political tendencies if you are a "Liberal" in Argentina it means 1. you are right handed that is to say you are in favour of  freedom of market, no state intervention, 2. you are more conservative in your ideas ( No abortion, No respect for sexual minorities,etc), very religious(mainly catholicism).


(*I* added 1 and 2 for easier comprehension)
In France, #1 is true, but #2 is not necessarily true.


EDIT : The French "libéralisme" is an economical term in the first place.
It's only become a political attitude because there's no longer such a thing as an autonomous political sphere, as everything is under the domination of the economical sphere  nowadays. I know this seems to be another story completely but my explanation would be incomplete without it.


----------



## rkirzner

Absolutely, in the United States, the term ¨liberal,¨ when referring to national politics, refers to very LEFT minded ideology.  And, since the word is so politically charged, it is almost never used in the economic sense, because anyone on the right side of American politics would never, ever, ever EVER want to use the word liberal to refer to themselves...


----------



## Everness

rkirzner said:
			
		

> Absolutely, in the United States, the term ¨liberal,¨ when referring to national politics, refers to very LEFT minded ideology.



Just to clarify, the term "left" in the States could be applied to "rightist" ideologies in other countries.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Everness*
> Just to clarify, the term "left" in the States could be applied to "rightist" ideologies in other countries.


 
On that same note, in the United States, one could have ideas that fall to the "left" of the right-wing, and or the "right" of the left-wing. In either case, one would most likely be considered a "centrist" or moderate.


----------



## Outsider

rob.returns said:
			
		

> Really? Liberal with conservative ideas. I find it weird but anyway thats in Argentina. I think, other democratic county would find it not that way. Do we have other foreros from other country who would agree with argieguy?


In the U.S., the word 'liberal' is identified with the left, because of its progressive ('liberal') ideas concerning social policy.

In Europe, though, 'liberal' tends to be identified with the right, because the word refers to 'free-market', capitalist-leaning economic policy. Hence the term 'neo-liberal', often bandied about in Europe.


----------



## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> In Europe, though, 'liberal' tends to be identified with the right, because the word refers to 'free-market', capitalist-leaning economic policy. Hence the term 'neo-liberal', often bandied about in Europe.



Same thing could be said about the use of the word liberal in Latin America. Interesting enough, many countries that strongly supported and fully embraced "neo-liberalism" in the 80's and 90's have now moved to the "left."


----------



## cirrus

Outsider said:
			
		

> In the U.S., the word 'liberal' is identified with the left, because of its progressive ('liberal') ideas concerning social policy.
> 
> In Europe, though, 'liberal' tends to be identified with the right, because the word refers to 'free-market', capitalist-leaning economic policy. Hence the term 'neo-liberal', often bandied about in Europe.


 
Perhaps this is yet another case where the UK proves to be less than European compared to its counterparts on the mainland.  The liberals here are to the left of the current Labour government.  Mind you that isn't saying much.


----------



## rob.returns

VErdad? WOah, This thread is opening my mind more on different connotations of being liberal.

In our country liberality manifest itself as more open economically, more democratic, and less conservative. In contrast, conservatives are the one that keeps the constitution, against radical changes. Im not sure, but sometimes it entails communistic ideas. Thats what I see and hear. Well, there are two sides of a coin. Isn't it?

Would this thread mean that the line that was drawn on liberality and conservatives are blurry?




			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, the term "left" in the States could be applied to "rightist" ideologies in other countries.


----------



## Isis

> Would this thread mean that the line that was drawn on liberality and conservatives are blurry?


[/QUOTE] 

No! The notion or theory of liberality and conservatism lies not in a single idea or truth but it lies on how the country that embraces such an idea gave the meaning on such theory.

In the country (Philippines), due to the Commonwealth status under the Americans, we borrowed their meaning of both terms and now it is being practised here. Those who wanted dramatic and drastic changes in the status quo go with the "left" or the liberal side and those who wanted to maintain the status quo are on the "right" or the conservative side.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Isis

Let me quote Cuchuflete, 

"I noticed that a "conservative" viewpoint was proposed to advocate changing law, in order to further regulate conduct by individuals.

This has me wondering, yet again, what the term "conservative" has come to mean, today, in matters of public policy. Once upon a time, it was fairly clear that conservatives wanted change to occur slowly, in small measures.
They were generally opposed to governmental intervention in social matters.
They generally believed in less government, rather than more government.
They were strongly against incurring large public debt.

"Liberals" or "Progressives" held contrasting positions. As a generality, they embraced change, and thought governments should and could do more to improve society. They were willing to have governments borrow lots of money to fund social initiatives.

Today however, at least in the U.S., the terms have become fairly meaningless. Or, at very least, they are ambiguous. We have had recent administrations led by "conservatives" such as Mr. Reagan and Mr. Bush II
that have done things like:

1. Incur huge federal government debts;
2. Increase the number of federal government employees beyond the wildest dreams of 'liberals';
3. Promote and legistlate federal government intervention in ways that both increase the absolute level of regulatory activity, and intrude [my view] into areas previously managed or mis-managed by local and regional [state/provincial] governments: National educational program..the so-called 'No child left behind' law.
4. Call for constitutional amendments to restrict the rights of citizens, in an arena until now left to the States to regulate...Anti-gay marriage amendment.

This thread is not about whether one agrees or disagrees with those actions. That's not the issue. It has become very hard to understand and explain what a 'conservative' is.

Likewise, the so-called 'liberals' have become trade protectionists, which used to be what 'conservatives' did. They oppose the Central American Free Trade Agreement. "Liberals" used to favor free trade. 

So, I ask your help in understanding what the words "conservative" and "liberal" have come to mean. Dictionary citations will probably give little insight, as both movements have discarded the classic definitions." end of quote.


----------



## rob.returns

I disagree with you:

left side: communistic: conservative.
right side: democratic: liberal

For the reason that democracy is more on openness. Capitalism has made it this way. You can't grow with out having democratic values of liberation. Economic growth will be hindered. THis is the main core of democracy, capitalism.

Communism would be more on conservative side. History would teach you that Pol Pot of Cambodia, Mao Tse Tung of China, Lenin of Russia, are communists(a lot more). They are not that open to the world, economically and politically. Pol pot have even resorted to go to the mountains and kill those knowledgeables and professionals(w/c would be a capitalistic trait, he believe.) Conservative ideas my friend. 

SO i think your logic would not be logical after all.

ANyway, I would appreciate a reply from you.



			
				Isis said:
			
		

> No! The notion or theory of liberality and conservatism lies not in a single idea or truth but it lies on how the country that embraces such an idea gave the meaning on such theory.
> 
> In the country (Philippines), due to the Commonwealth status under the Americans, we borrowed their meaning of both terms and now it is being practised here. Those who wanted dramatic and drastic changes in the status quo go with the "left" or the liberal side and those who wanted to maintain the status quo are on the "right" or the conservative side.
> 
> Hope this helps!


----------



## BasedowLives

rob.returns said:
			
		

> I disagree with you:
> 
> left side: communistic: conservative.
> right side: democratic: liberal
> 
> For the reason that democracy is more on open. Capitalism has made it this way. You can't grow with out having democratic values of liberation. Economic growth will be hindered. THis is the main core of democracy, capitalism.
> 
> Communism would be more on conservative side. History would teach you that Pol Pot of Cambodia, Mao Tse Tung of China, Lenin of Russia, are communists(a lot more). They are not that open to the world, economically and politically. Pol pot have even resorted to go to the mountains and kill those knowledgeables and professionals(w/c would be a capitalistic trait, he believe.) Conservative ideas my friend.
> 
> SO i think your logic would not be logical after all.
> 
> ANyway, I would appreciate a reply from you.



Despite how you can try to twist it.

Basic contemporary thought says that Conservatives are the Anti-Communists.  Their typical insult for liberals is calling them "pinko commies".

Extreme conservativism is Fascism, not Communism.

edit:  i will agree with you though, that nearly all "communist" societies in the world have been fascist.


----------



## rob.returns

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> Despite how you can try to twist it.
> 
> *Basic contemporary thought *says that Conservatives are the Anti-Communists.
> 
> Extreme conservativism is Fascism, not Communism.


 
Basic comtemporary thought, would be just 3 pieces of words, bind together with out meaning, if no one would explain it.


----------



## BasedowLives

Ok.....

Whatever's commonly accepted. 

 i edited it too, to add some extra stuff.


----------



## Outsider

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> Despite how you can try to twist it.
> 
> Basic contemporary thought says that Conservatives are the Anti-Communists.  Their typical insult for liberals is calling them "pinko commies".
> 
> Extreme conservativism is Fascism, not Communism.
> 
> edit:  i will agree with you though, that nearly all "communist" societies in the world have been fascist.


I think Rob.returns was talking about the situation in the Philippines. Political labels can change a lot from society to society.


----------



## rob.returns

Yes, indeed. But one thing, do we have like standard description of something being liberal of something being conservative, politically speaking?

It really creates confusion.


----------



## LV4-26

The misunderstanding here lies in the fact that "liberal" isn't the opposite of "conservative" or shouldn't be as far as language and logic are concerned.

A liberal wants liberal policies (whatever that means) to be enforced. Once these policies are enforced and well established, wouldn't he/she want this new satus quo to remain, hence wouldn't he/she become a Conservative (while remaining a true liberal and even *because* of that) ?


----------



## Outsider

rob.returns said:
			
		

> Yes, indeed. But one thing, do we have like standard description of something being liberal of something being conservative, politically speaking?
> 
> It really creates confusion.


The Wikipedia has a very thorough explanation of the various meanings of "liberalism".


----------



## Mr. Chaz

Very interesting!  Thanks to everyone...I've learned a lot!  Gracias a todos! Y a Argieguy quien abrió el 'thread'.


----------

