# Erika



## Akire72

Hello everyone. I would like to have my name tatooed in Arabic and I have two different translations of my name:

خلنج نبات and
اريكا ​ 
which one is correct? what's the difference?​


----------



## Muwahid

That first one I've got no clue about.  نبات Means plant as far as I know, and "khalnaj"?? No idea. The second one looks OK. When in doubt, google image it 

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&tbs=isch:1&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&gs_rfai=&q=%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%83%D8%A7

So it looks safe. Let others chime in though.


----------



## uas60

Well you don't really weren't your name to be "translated" into Arabic, you still want the tattoo to say "er-i-ka" right?

The first one doesn't say "Erika", the second one does, i.e. اريكا


----------



## Josh_

But the alif needs a hamza on it -- أريكا.


----------



## Akire72

Thank you so much for your replies! I have a choice here!
I google-imaged it and it turned out that:
خلنج means heather, the plant that in Italian is called "erica"
while أريكا is the transcription of the sound "erika/erica" did I get it right?


----------



## Anasurimbor

Yes you did get it right.
But I would recommend this transcription

*إريكا*

with the hamza under the alif not above it. Otherwise it would sound more like "Arika".


----------



## Muwahid

Anasurimbor said:


> Yes you did get it right.
> But I would recommend this transcription
> 
> *إريكا*
> 
> with the hamza under the alif not above it. Otherwise it would sound more like "Arika".



I thought the same but how could I question an expert like Josh


----------



## ovlover

just started learning arabic,agree about hamza,nice name..


----------



## Josh_

Anasurimbor said:


> Yes you did get it right.
> But I would recommend this transcription
> 
> *إريكا*
> 
> with the hamza under the alif not above it. Otherwise it would sound more like "Arika".


But with the hamza underneath it the name will sound like "Iriika" (the first 'i' sounding like the 'i' bit).


The problem is that every language has its different sound system. When we try to fit a word native to language A into foreign language B it will often not sound exactly the same as it will have to be worked into language B's phonological patterns. That is, for example, why telephone is pronounced "tilifoon" in Arabic. 

Arabic does not have a sound corresponding to the 'e' in Erica. Arabic only has an 'a', 'i', and 'u'. So the 'e' will have to be represented by one of these sounds.

At any rate, I believe أريكا is closer to the pronunciation than إريكا (at least as far as the name is pronounced in American English). That is the spelling I recommend and would use myself.



Muwahid said:


> I thought the same but how could I question an expert like Josh


I'm flattered you think of me as an expert, but I can of course be wrong or inaccurate, so do not hesitate to question something I say if it seems that I might be mistaken.


----------



## L.2

My name is إيمان I have been writing it as Iman with 'I' until an English speaker corrected it to be Eman and إيمان has a hamza under the alif. If Erika is the same then it should be written with إ or maybe we can left out the hamza.


----------



## cherine

Hi,
I don't think Erica is pronounced the same way as Eman/Iman. But I think it's better to put the hamza under the alif and not above. إريكا otherwise, the Arabic pronunciation will be a clear *A*rika.
Usually, E and I are transliterated with إ not أ .


----------



## Josh_

L.2 said:


> My name is إيمان I have been writing it as Iman with 'I' until an English speaker corrected it to be Eman and إيمان has a hamza under the alif. If Erika is the same then it should be written with إ


Is the first letter of your name pronounced like the 'ee' in 'seem'? If so, I'll bet they "corrected" it to Eman because to them it sounded like the name of the letter 'e'.  However the 'i' (or double 'ii) is more associated with this sound, which is why you see the name spelled with 'i' -- Iman.  

Honestly, I like Iman better (I think it looks better), but Eman is possible as well.  Both are fine, neither is incorrect.  When transliterating words there are usually a variety of alternatives possible, such as محمد being spelled Muhammad, Mohammad, Muhammed, Mohammed, Mohamed, etc.  None are incorrect.  It depends on the person, I suppose.

Anyway, back to Erica.  If the 'e' in the name were pronounced like in إيمان, then I would spell it إيريكا, but  it's not. The 'e' is pronounced like the 'e' in 'ten', not like the 'ee' in 'seem'.  

I think that أريكا best represents it, but إريكا is possible as well.  It's up to you Akire72.



> or maybe we can left out the hamza.


Oh no, top or bottom, the hamza should be included.  As I've said before, leaving out the hamza may be ok in casual writing, but if you are going to get to get a tattoo which will be on your body permanently, you should spell words correctly.  That means including the hamza on any initial alifs.


----------



## L.2

I was referring to the  cases in Arabic when alhamza shouldn't be written. I don't mean to misspell the name. I thought maybe we can make Erika one of these cases


----------



## Akire72

Erika is pronouced with a "e" like in "ten" and the accent is on the E, not on the "i" as many think. The "i" is pronounced as in "think". So how should I write it then?


----------



## elroy

Josh_ said:


> The 'e' is pronounced like the 'e' in 'ten', not like the 'ee' in 'seem'.


 To me, the "e" doesn't sound like the one in "ten" but the one in "America."  It is a long vowel that is transliterated using an ي and not an ا in Arabic, so my suggestion would actually be إيريكا.  But if I had to choose between أريكا and إريكا, I would definitely go with the latter.  We could argue at length about whether "e" is closer to "i" or to "a," but I don't even really think that's the point.  The point is that the "e" sound is transliterated into Arabic using an ي (or a kasra).  I can't think of an example of that sound transliterated using an ا (or a fat7a).


----------



## ovlover

I think the closest one to say an e is hamzah underneath alif instead on top of it.New lesson for me,do we still need ي,isn't hamza underneath alif is a kasra?

erika must make sure the correct one before making it permanent,correction wouldn't be easy..


----------



## cherine

We can either write it إيريكا or إريكا , but as the first vowel is not long, I think it's safer to go for إريكا .


----------



## Abu Rashid

cherine said:
			
		

> We can either write it إيريكا or إريكا , but as the first vowel is not  long, I think it's safer to go for إريكا .


I don't know about the Italian pronunciation, but in the English pronunciation of this name the vowels are the same length. إريكا doesn't sound much like the name at all.


----------



## Abu Rashid

L.2 said:
			
		

> My name is إيمان I have been writing it as Iman with 'I' until an  English speaker corrected it to be Eman and إيمان has a hamza under the  alif. If Erika is the same then it should be written with إ or maybe we  can left out the hamza.



Vowels in English are pretty mixed up, so neither is more correct than the other. I think Imaan is the more commonly accepted way of transliterating your name. Eman is common amongst Egyptians I think, so perhaps the person who "corrected" your name was influenced by Egyptian transliteration.


----------



## elroy

cherine said:


> We can either write it إيريكا or إريكا , but as the first vowel is not long, I think it's safer to go for إريكا .


 It _is _long.  And the second one is short.  So, actually, it could even be أيرِكا, but as we both know, even short vowels are often transliterated using long vowels in Arabic...


----------



## Josh_

elroy said:


> To me, the "e" doesn't sound like the one in "ten" but the one in "America."


Those e's sound the same to me.  


> It is a long vowel


What do you mean by long? It sounds short to me. 





> that is transliterated using an ي and not an ا in Arabic,


Yes, that is most common transliteration, especially for medial letters, however I think there is more leeway for an initial vowel. 





> so my suggestion would actually be إيريكا.  But if I had to choose between أريكا and إريكا, I would definitely go with the latter.


I would definitely go with the one without the ي. Transliterating with a ي does not sound or look very good for this name, in my opinion.  





> We could argue at length about whether "e" is closer to "i" or to "a," but I don't even really think that's the point.  The point is that the "e" sound is transliterated into Arabic using an ي (or a kasra).  I can't think of an example of that sound transliterated using an ا (or a fat7a).


Likewise, we could argue ad nauseam about transliteration.  Yes, e's and i's are most commonly transliterated with a ي (and I agree in a medial position there really is no other option), but there is no inherent reason why this needs to be the case every time, particularly at the beginning of a word.  It's not like there's some rule that states that i and e MUST be transliterated using a ي.  

As I said, e's and i's are most commonly transliterated with a ي.  This is certainly the case for when they occur in medial positions, but I believe there is more leeway at the beginning of a word since there in no preceding consonant.

So, as I said I prefer أريكا.  I think it sounds closer to Erika than إريكا does, and I think it looks better as well.

Ultimately, however, a tattoo is a personal thing to be enjoyed by the person getting the tattoo.  It should not have to conform to anyone's sensibilities but the one getting the tattoo. 

Both أريكا and إريكا are acceptable.  So I suggest to Akire to get whichever you prefer.


----------



## elroy

I don't see why there should be more leeway if the vowel is word-initial.   I don't see why the presence or absence of a preceding consonant should have anything to do with the transliteration.

I think the statement "Both أريكا and إريكا are acceptable" is very misleading.  There is no chance that أريكا will be read correctly (أ is never pronounced "e"), whereas spelling it إريكا - or, better yet, إيريكا - increases the chances of the name being read correctly (even though it could of course still be misread, as Arabic does not have an "e" sound).

I think it's remiss to ignore existing transliteration conventions.  The purpose of writing is to communicate, and the purpose of transliteration is to help people accurately pronounce a word.  While we don't have an Arabic grapheme that corresponds to the sound in question, it makes more sense to use a letter that is traditionally and routinely used to transliterate that sound, than one that is not.

For those reasons, أريكا does not sound or look good to me.

As for the pronunciation of the "e," I hear a difference between the "e" in "ten" and the one in "Erica."  To me, the latter sounds longer than the former.


----------



## clevermizo

elroy said:


> As for the pronunciation of the "e," I hear a difference between the "e" in "ten" and the one in "Erica."  To me, the latter sounds longer than the former.



You're right there is a slight difference in length because the English [r] is semi-vocalic (but the Italian [r] is not). But I think the important thing here is not length but stress (which is tied up with length to some extent).

We are basing the suggestions on the American English pronunciation of the name "Erica/Erika" but the OP is Italian speaking. My question to the OP is - where is your name stressed: E*ri*ka or *E*rika. If it is [e.'ri:.ka] then I suggest إريكا. If it is ['e:.rı.kə] then I suggest إيريكا.  

I also don't particularly like أريكا because although occasionally the أ can approach the sound [ε] (like the Egyptian pronunciation of أوّل), I think in general it will be read aloud as unambiguous [a] (or [ʌ] actually) which will sound wrong. And although the combination أيـْ is pronounced as long [e:] in some dialects, I think at first glance it will be read [ay] which will also sound wrong.


----------



## elroy

clevermizo said:


> [...]although occasionally the أ can approach the sound [ε] (like the Egyptian pronunciation of أوّل), I think in general it will be read aloud as unambiguous [a] (or [ʌ] actually) which will sound wrong.


 Exactly. 





> And although the combination أيـْ is pronounced as long [e:] in some dialects,


  Really?  أيْـ and not إيْـ?  How odd.  I would always pronounce أيْـ [ay].


----------



## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Exactly.   Really?  أيْـ and not إيْـ?  How odd?  I would always pronounce أيْـ [ay].



Well I mean the combination _fat7a+yaa2_ as we find in بيت، سيف etc. 

The combination أي has become [e:] like the word [eesh] from أي شيء but to be fair, most people will write the colloquial word إيش. So you're right, when it comes to reading aloud أي will probably always be read [ay].


----------



## Josh_

elroy said:


> I don't see why there should be more leeway if the vowel is word-initial.  I don't see why the presence or absence of a preceding consonant should have anything to do with the transliteration.


There is more leeway because there is less likelihood of confusion at the beginning of a word. Why do we use long Arabic vowels to represent short English vowels? To reduce the risk of confusion. For example there is less likelihood of confusion in كاليفورنيا than there is in كلفرنيا which, if voweled correctly, would actually represent the pronunciation more faithfully. But at the beginning of a word, in which the vowel is not sandwiched in between two consonants there is less risk of confusion (an أ could either fatHa or a Damma and an إ can only be an kasra), so more leeway is given. As such, foreign words whose initial vowel sound is short are often spelled with an equivalent short vowel in Arabic in the word-initial position. For example English is spelled إنجليزي, Indiana is إنديانا, Illinois is إلينوي, Estonia is إستونيا, Indonesia is إندونيسيا, so on and so forth. According to the position you espouse these foreign names should be spelled إينجليزي، إينديانا, إيلينوي, إيستونيا, إيندونيسيا, but they're not, because of the reduced risk of confusion which occurs at the beginning of a word. So there is more leeway. In fact, it seems unless there is a risk of confusion, Arabic would choose a short vowel (after all these would better represent short vowels in other languages). Of course the only time when there is little risk of confusion is when a consonant is in the word-initial position. 

And of course foreign names that start with an 'a', such as Albania, Alabama, etc. are spelled with an أ, not an آ. I'm sure you would agree that Albania spelled آلبانيا and Alabama spelled آلاباما would look weird, even though according to the position that vowels in foreign words should be spelled with long vowels in Arabic that would be the correct spelling.



> I think the statement "Both أريكا and إريكا are acceptable" is very misleading. There is no chance that أريكا will be read correctly (أ is never pronounced "e"), whereas spelling it إريكا - or, better yet, إيريكا - increases the chances of the name being read correctly (even though it could of course still be misread, as Arabic does not have an "e" sound).


No it is not misleading. As you said your preferred method could still be mispronounced. And that is because it is an approximation, as is أريكا. Arabic has no 'e' sound as you say. A strict reading of إريكاwould be "iriika" and إيريكا is iiriika, which seems very odd to me.



clevermizo said:


> I also don't particularly like أريكا because although occasionally the أ can approach the sound [ε] (like the Egyptian pronunciation of أوّل)


I'm not sure exactly what the [ε] sounds like, but the Egyptian pronunciation of أول is "awwil" with a normal أ sound. At least that's what I hear.



> I think in general it will be read aloud as unambiguous [a] (or [ʌ] actually) which will sound wrong. And although the combination أيـْ is pronounced as long [e:] in some dialects, I think at first glance it will be read [ay] which will also sound wrong.


From what you, Elroy, and the others who object to أريكا say it sounds like the main objections are one of translation convention and that أ will only be pronounced 'a' whereas there is a chance إ will be pronounced 'e' (perhaps as a result of influence of dialects or other reasons). I don't know, those do not seem to be strong enough objections in my mind to rule out أريكا outright, because as we said, any spelling is only an approximation.


----------



## clevermizo

Josh_ said:


> I'm not sure exactly what the [ε] sounds like, but the Egyptian pronunciation of أول is "awwil" with a normal أ sound. At least that's what I hear.



I thought it was more like _ewwel_ but I could be thinking of a different dialect.



> From what you, Elroy, and the others who object to أريكا say it sounds like the main objections are one of translation convention and that أ will only be pronounced 'a' whereas there is a chance إ will be pronounced 'e' (perhaps as a result of influence of dialects or other reasons). I don't know, those do not seem to be strong enough objections in my mind to rule out أريكا outright, because as we said, any spelling is only an approximation.



I just think that saying _ariika or ayriika_ is more strange than _iriika _or _iirika _or _iiriika, _in terms of which approximation sounds worse. Maybe I think "e" and "i" sound closer than either is to "a"? Especially when we consider that it is Italian which doesn't have the same coloration of the r onto the vowel like the name is pronounced in American English.


----------



## elroy

Josh_ said:


> According to the position you espouse these foreign names should be spelled إينجليزي، إينديانا, إيلينوي, إيستونيا, إيندونيسيا,


 I think you misunderstood me.  I never intended to suggest that short vowels should always be transliterated using long vowels in Arabic.  I agree with you that long vowels are often used within words to represent short vowels, but not so much (if ever) in the word-initial position (so I see what you meant by "leeway" now).  However, to me, the "e" in "Erika" sounds long, hence my suggestion.  So I wasn't suggesting that إيـ be used to transliterate a short "e" sound, but a long one.



> No it is not misleading. As you said your preferred method could still be mispronounced.


 Yes, but yours would _definitely _be mispronounced.  That's why simply referring to both of them as "acceptable" is misleading.


> From what you, Elroy, and the others who object to أريكا say it sounds like the main objections are one of translation convention and that أ will only be pronounced 'a' whereas there is a chance إ will be pronounced 'e' (perhaps as a result of influence of dialects or other reasons). I don't know, those do not seem to be strong enough objections in my mind to rule out أريكا outright, because as we said, any spelling is only an approximation.


 As far as I'm concerned, those are very solid reasons.  Yes, in this case, any spelling is - strictly speaking - an approximation, but it just wouldn't occur to me to use أ as an approximation of "e."


----------



## Outsider

clevermizo said:


> We are basing the suggestions on the American English pronunciation of the name "Erica/Erika" but the OP is Italian speaking. My question to the OP is - where is your name stressed: E*ri*ka or *E*rika. If it is [e.'ri:.ka] then I suggest إريكا. If it is ['e:.rı.kə] then I suggest إيريكا.


Akire explained it in a previous post:



Akire72 said:


> Erika is pronouced with a "e" like in "ten" and the accent is on the E, not on the "i" as many think. The "i" is pronounced as in "think".


----------



## clevermizo

Outsider said:


> Akire explained it in a previous post:



Oops! I must have missed that. Thanks!

In that case, I think it's going to be hard to show all the vowels and stress on the first syllable, but perhaps إيريكا will do.


----------



## Josh_

elroy said:


> I think you misunderstood me.  I never intended to suggest that short vowels should always be transliterated using long vowels in Arabic.  I agree with you that long vowels are often used within words to represent short vowels, but not so much (if ever) in the word-initial position (so I see what you meant by "leeway" now).  However, to me, the "e" in "Erika" sounds long, hence my suggestion.  So I wasn't suggesting that إيـ be used to transliterate a short "e" sound, but a long one.


Ok, I see.  I see what you mean by the 'e' in Erica being longer than the 'e' in ten for example, however this is due to the stress I believe, as Clevermizo intimated; it is not a change in sound.  This is the traditional short 'e' sound (which we learn in elementary school, it is just a name and has nothing to due with vowel duration; this is why I was confused by your saying it was a long 'e'), whereas the traditional long 'e' sound is like the 'e' in Pete.  Now, if the 'e' in Erica sounded like that I would suggest إيريكا, but it does not, so in my estimation إيريكا represent a further deviation than either أريكا or إريكا does.  And like you say أريكا "would definitely be mispronounced" so would إيريكا because إيـ is not associated with the sound 'e' as in ten.  Yes, someone familiar with transliteration conventions may know that it is representing an 'e', but if they had not heard the name before they would pronounce it "iiriika," which sounds terribly dreadful to my ears. So I think this is where so called transliteration conventions do a disservice.  Just because the 'e' in Erica may sound longer in duration than the 'e' in ten should not necessarily mean that a ي should automatically be used, at least in my opinion, especially considering that the e's in both words represent the same sound.  That "long" 'e' in Erica actually sounds closer to the long ـا as in إيمان and الآن, which is actually more of an 'e' sound than an 'a' sound, if you think about. For example, the ـمان in إيمان sounds more like the English word "men" than "man." So a spelling of  آريكا would actually represent the pronunciation better.  Note I am not suggesting using that spelling just trying to show the pitfalls that could happen by adhering too rigidly to certain transliteration conventions.


----------



## clevermizo

Josh_ said:


> Ok, I see.  I see what you mean by the 'e' in Erica being longer than the 'e' in ten for example, however this is due to the stress I believe, as Clevermizo intimated; it is not a change in sound.  This is the traditional short 'e' sound (which we learn in elementary school, it is just a name and has nothing to due with vowel duration; this is why I was confused by your saying it was a long 'e'),



This is out of scope of the Arabic forum, but just to set the record straight, whenever I (or Elroy I think as well ) use the terms "short" or "long" we refer strictly to "vowel duration." For example, English has _real_ long and short vowels: such as the 'e' in bed versus the 'e' in bet. When the vowel 'e' precedes a voiced consonant in a single syllable word, it's twice as long. In fact, that's the primary reason why we can tell the difference between the two words, not the 't' or 'd' which we barely pronounce at all.  I don't hear that much of a difference between *E*rika and t*e*n, but the *r* in English is slightly vocalic, so it adds a "quality" to the *E*rika that is missing in t*e*n.



> but if they had not heard the name before they would pronounce it "iiriika," which sounds terribly dreadful to my ears. So I think this is where so called transliteration conventions do a disservice.



I just pronounced [iiriika] about ten times aloud to myself and it really doesn't sound as bad as [ariika] to me. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion/aesthetic.



> That "long" 'e' in Erica actually sounds closer to the long ـا as in إيمان and الآن, which is actually more of an 'e' sound than an 'a' sound, if you think about. For example, the ـمان in إيمان sounds more like the English word "men" than "man."



This is not universally true throughout the Arab world. To me the مان in إيمان only sounds like [m*e*n] in Beiruti. 



> So a spelling of  آريكا would actually represent the pronunciation better.  Note I am not suggesting using that spelling just trying to show the pitfalls that could happen by adhering too rigidly to certain transliteration conventions.



I disagree. Now long [aa] sounds either higher or lower in Arabic depending on phonetic context. However, that's in native words. I think upon encountering a word never seen before, when an individual must read aloud and "sound out" the word, this would spontaneously be pronounced lower [a] as in father. I think [aariika] sounds worse than [iiriika] but again, this may be just a difference of opinion as to what "sounds good".


----------



## Akire72

clevermizo said:


> You're right there is a slight difference in length because the English [r] is semi-vocalic (but the Italian [r] is not). *TRUE*
> But I think the important thing here is not length but stress (which is tied up with length to some extent). *BOTH ARE IMPORTANT! *
> 
> We are basing the suggestions on the American English pronunciation of the name "Erica/Erika" but the OP is Italian speaking. My question to the OP is - where is your name stressed: E*ri*ka or *E*rika. If it is [e.'ri:.ka] then I suggest إريكا. If it is ['e:.rı.kə] then I suggest إيريكا.


 
My name is pronunced ['e:.ri:.ka], quite different from the English that has a semivocalic R and a ə instead of an A.


----------



## clevermizo

Akire72 said:


> My name is pronunced ['e:.ri:.ka], quite different from the English that has a semivocalic R and a ə instead of an A.



Personally I suggest إيريكا. This will be mispronounced [i:.ri:.ka] but I think it will suit you best, especially since you can always correct someone in person. The problem is being able to transcribe [e:] in Arabic script.


----------



## Jasmine_Chila

I also think  إيريكا  because of the way I often see company names, and other first names, with a short 'e' stressed transliterated in this way. Arabic often writes short 'e' with a ي. 

But I've got a question of my own. Why do we choose an alif at the end? Why don't we use another letter for -a at the end? Like ى or ة? I know there must be a rule, but  I just don't understand it yet. Is it because Arabic names ى and ة have so because of a grammatical meaning, and Erika doesn't have a meaning in Arabic so it has to be written with a nuetral ي?


----------



## clevermizo

Jasmine_Chila said:


> I also think  إيريكا  because of the way I often see company names, and other first names, with a short 'e' stressed transliterated in this way. Arabic often writes short 'e' with a ي.
> 
> But I've got a question of my own. Why do we choose an alif at the end? Why don't we use another letter for -a at the end? Like ى or ة? I know there must be a rule, but  I just don't understand it yet. Is it because Arabic names ى and ة have so because of a grammatical meaning, and Erika doesn't have a meaning in Arabic so it has to be written with a nuetral ي?



I think it is common to write final -a from foreign loans (modern ones anyway), as ـا . You may be right that ending in ـة or ـى might not be natural since these names/words don't have any real meaning in Arabic.


----------

