# Differences between "twin" languages



## Gnoj

My previous topic "Macedonian vs. Bulgarian, Czech vs. Slovak..." was deleted due to *Multiple violations of our rule limiting quoted lyrics to four lines (due to copyright restrictions)* I wasn't aware about. So I'm reopening the thread by taking into account the moderator's remarks for the previous one.

All right then, let's have some fun with differences between "twin" languages, such as Macedonian and Bulgarian, Czech and Slovak, Croatian and Serbian, Serbian and Bosnian, Russian and Belorusian, Belorusian and Polish, or whatever "pair" you see fit.
Personally, I'm curious about differences between Czech and Slovak, but in the meantime I'll start with some Macedonian and Bulgarian.

Ḱe ima li den k'o d*e*not s*o* nea, od sonce p*o*svetla,
den k'o pesna čuena?
Ḱe ima li noḱ k'o n*o*ḱta s*o* nea, k'o b*a*jka r*a*skošna,
N*a*dvor - leto, v d*u*ša - zima sibirska.

-------------------


Šte ima li den kato denj*a* s n*e*ja, ot slănce p*o*-sv*e*tla,
den kato čuta pesen?
Šte ima li nošt kato noštt*a* s n*e*ja, kato razk*o*šna vălš*e*bna prikazka,
Nav*ă*n - ljato, v duš*a*ta - zima sibirska.

(ḱ = кь/ть, ǵ = гь/дь)

And remember: No lyrics with more than four lines.


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## lavverats

Ookay! Let's go, Mr. Pus!
Would you please be so kind and find all the ten fun differences here:

Az săm b*ă*lgarche*. *Ob*i*cham
n*a*shite planin*i *zel*e*ni*,
*b*ă*lgarin da se nar*i*cham -
p*ă*rva r*a*dost e za m*e*ne*.*

aaand now - the Jazikot:

Jas sum B*u*garche. Gi s*a*kam
n*a*shite pl*a*nini z*e*leni,
B*u*garin da se nar*e*kuvam -
p*r*va r*a*dost e za m*e*ne.



P.P. Zoshto be zanimavash i tuka so istoto? Ne ti se zdodeja?


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## DenisBiH

Erm, if I may make a suggestion? The previous thread was closed because of rule relating to possible copyright infringement, if I'm not mistaken? Well, if that's the only reason, if anyone has plenty of folk songs, it is the peoples of the Balkans. Now, I believe it's highly unlikely that folk songs' lyrics are under some copyright, so perhaps they could be used for these side by side comparisons? That is, of course, if no other rules are being broken.

I for one would like to see what the lyrics of the Serbian version of this folk song look like in Macedonian and Bulgarian. The dialect is that of Southeast Serbia, I believe, somewhat closer to Macedonian and Bulgarian. (I know there are distinct Macedonian and Bulgarian versions of that song as well, with different lyrics, but I'm not talking about them at the moment).

The Serbian version:


> Ruse kose, curo, imaš / žališ li gi ti? / Aman, da gi žalam, ne bi ti gi dala / da gi mrsiš ti.
> Belo lice, curo, imaš / žališ li ga ti? / Aman, da go žalam ne bi ti go dala / da go ljubiš ti.
> Medna usta, curo, imaš / žališ li gi ti? / Aman, da gi žalam, ne bi ti gi dala / da gi piješ ti.



(By the way, the lyrics seem to be incomplete. There should be another stanza with _Crne oči, curo, imaš_...)


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## lavverats

DenisBiH said:


> ....
> 
> I for one would like to see what the lyrics of the Serbian version of this folk song look like in Macedonian and Bulgarian. ...



"I'm here to fullfill all your dreams." 

The Bulgarian version:

"Rusi kosi, druzhke,  imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da gi zhalya, ne bih ti gi dala/ da gi mărsish ti.
Byalo litse, druzhke, imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da go zhalya, ne bih ti go dala/ da go lyubish ti.
Medeni ustni, druzhke, imash/ zhalish li gi ti?/ Aman, da gi zhalya, ne bih ti gi dala/ da gi piesh ti."

I'm not pretty sure if "cura" is "druzhka". Google says "cura"="priyatelka".
"Aman" is a turkish word not used in the literary language, but it's known by everyone.
"Usta" is "mouth" while "ustni" = "lips"


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## TriglavNationalPark

DenisBiH said:


> Erm, if I may make a suggestion? The previous thread was closed because of rule relating to possible copyright infringement, if I'm not mistaken? Well, if that's the only reason, if anyone has plenty of folk songs, it is the peoples of the Balkans. Now, I believe it's highly unlikely that folk songs' lyrics are under some copyright, so perhaps they could be used for these side by side comparisons? That is, of course, if no other rules are being broken.



Yes, folk songs should be O.K. The Lord's Prayer is also often used for comparing languages; it's also in public domain (i.e., not subject to copyright). For example, here it is in Slovenian:



> Oče naš, ki si v nebesih,
> posvečeno bodi tvoje ime,
> pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,
> zgodi se tvoja volja
> kakor v nebesih tako na zemlji.
> Daj nam danes naš vsakdanji kruh
> in odpusti nam naše dolge,
> kakor tudi mi odpuščamo svojim dolžnikom,
> in ne vpelji nas v skušnjavo,
> temveč reši nas hudega.
> Amen.


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

And here it is in standardized Kajkavian Croatian, the closest Slovenian has to a  "twin" (even though the differences are still significant):



> Otec naš, koj si na nebesi,
> sveti se ime tvoje,
> dojdi kralestvo tvoje,
> budi vola tvoja,
> kak na nebu tak i na zemli.
> Kruha našega vsagdašnega dej nam denes.
> I otpusti nam duge naše,
> kak i mi otpuščamo dužnikom našim,
> i ne vpelaj nas vu skušavanje,
> nego oslobodi nas od zla.
> Amen


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

NOTE: To prevent folk song lyrics or religious texts from being deleted by other moderators, please label them as public domain (as I just did above).


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## Azori

_Lord's Prayer_

*Czech*


> Otče náš, jenž si na nebesích,
> posvěť se jméno tvé,
> přijď království tvé,
> buď vůle tvá
> jako v nebi, tak i na zemi.
> Chléb náš vezdejší dej nám dnes
> a odpusť nám naše viny,
> jako i my odpouštíme našim viníkům
> a neuveď nás v pokušení,
> ale zbav nás od zlého.
> Amen.


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

*Slovak*


> Otče náš, ktorý si na nebesiach,
> posväť sa meno tvoje,
> príď kráľovstvo tvoje,
> buď vôľa tvoja
> ako v nebi, tak i na zemi.
> Chlieb náš každodenný daj nám dnes
> a odpusť nám naše viny,
> ako i my odpúšťame svojim vinníkom
> a neuveď nás do pokušenia,
> ale zbav nás zlého.
> Amen.


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

Here's a short excerpt from a random Czech news article with my own Slovak translation of it:

*Czech*


> Bouřky komplikovaly dopravu, stovky lidí jsou dosud bez proudu
> ČR /FOTOGALERIE/- Prudké bouře provázené přívalovými dešti, silným větrem a kroupami, které večer a v noci na pátek zasáhly většinu území Čech, způsobily problémy v dopravě, dodávkách elektřiny a ohrožovaly lidské životy. Hasiči evakuovali a zachránili desítky lidí. Silný vítr vyvracel stromy, lámal větve a ničil střechy, některé obce vyplavily přívalové deště. Stovky domácností jsou bez elektřiny, energetici v některých oblastech vyhlásili kalamitní stav.



*Slovak*


> Búrky komplikovali dopravu, stovky ľudí sú dosiaľ bez prúdu
> ČR /FOTOGALÉRIA/- Prudké búrky sprevádzané prívalovými dažďami, silným vetrom a krúpami, ktoré večer a v noci na piatok zasiahli väčšinu územia Čiech, spôsobili problémy v doprave, dodávkach elektriny a ohrozovali ľudské životy. Hasiči evakuovali a zachránili desiatky ľudí. Silný vietor vyvracal stromy, lámal vetvy a ničil strechy, niektoré obce vyplavili prívalové dažde. Stovky domácností sú bez elektriny, energetici v niektorých oblastiach vyhlásili kalamitný stav.


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## iobyo

DenisBiH said:


> Ruse kose, curo, imaš / žališ li gi ti? / Aman, da gi žalam, ne bi ti gi dala / da gi mrsiš ti.
> Belo lice, curo, imaš / žališ li ga ti? / Aman, da go žalam ne bi ti go dala / da go ljubiš ti.
> Medna usta, curo, imaš / žališ li gi ti? / Aman, da gi žalam, ne bi ti gi dala / da gi piješ ti.



The only differences between the version you've provided and a translation into Standard Macedonian would be the word _cura_ (_девојка_, _мома _or a derivative of one of them would be used instead), _руси коси_ (no fem./masc. distinction in pl.), and _пиеш _instead of _piješ_.

I assume the last line should read _medne usne_ on account of the pl. 3P pronoun _gi_ (in which case it would be _медни усни_).


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## Gnoj

iobyo said:


> The only differences between the version you've provided and a translation into Standard Macedonian would be the word _cura_ (_девојка_, _мома _or a derivative of one of them would be used instead) and _пиеш _instead of _piješ_.
> 
> I assume the last line should read _medne usne_ on account of the pl. 3P pronoun _gi_.


And "ruse kose" => "rusi kosi"


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## DenisBiH

> The only differences between the version you've provided and a translation into Standard Macedonian would be the word _cura_ (_девојка_, _мома _or a derivative of one of them would be used instead), _руси коси_ (no fem./masc. distinction in pl.), and _пиеш _instead of _piješ_.



What would be the vocative of _devojka _and _moma_?



> I assume the last line should read _medne usne_ on account of the pl. 3P pronoun _gi_ (in which case it would be _медни усни_).



In BCSM _usta _is plurale tantum, so 3. person pl. is required here, at least in the standard language (I'm not sure about SE Serbia dialect). One could perhaps argue that _medne usne_ would fit better, but _usta _can mean _usne _in BCSM colloquially, so licentia poetica.


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## Arath

DenisBiH said:


> What would be the vocative of _devojka _and _moma_?


In Bulgarian, that would be девойко (dev*o*jko) and моме (m*o*me).



DenisBiH said:


> In BCSM _usta _is plurale tantum, so 3. person pl. is required here, at least in the standard language.



In Bulgarian, уста (ust*a*) could also be plural, but it's considered old-fashioned. Here's an example from the poem _Хаджи Димитър_ by Hristo Botev

На една страна захвърлил пушка,
на друга сабля на две строшена;
очи темнеят, глава се люшка,
уста проклинат цяла вселена!

Na edn*a* stran*a* zahv*ă*rlil p*u*ška,
na dr*u*ga s*a*blja na dve stroš*e*na;
oč*i* temn*e*jat, glav*a* se lj*u*ška,
ust*a* prokl*i*nat (3rd person plural) cj*a*la vsel*e*na!


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## iobyo

DenisBiH said:


> What would be the vocative of _devojka _and _moma_?



_Девојко _and _моме_.



DenisBiH said:


> In BCSM _usta _is plurale tantum, so 3. person pl. is required here. One could perhaps argue that _medne usne_ would fit better, but _usta _can mean _usne _in BCSM colloquially, so licentia poetica.



Yes, of course — that and _vrata_ always muddle me up because in Macedonian pluralia tantum always have an ending expected for ordinary plurals: _панталони_, _ножици_, etc.


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## DenisBiH

Thank you all guys! 

Here is the version in standard Serbian:


> Ruse kose, curo, imaš / žališ li ih ti? / Aman, da ih žalim, ne bih ti ih dala / da ih mrsiš ti.
> Belo lice, curo, imaš / žališ li ga ti? / Aman, da ga žalim ne bih ti ga dala / da ga ljubiš ti.
> Medna usta, curo, imaš / žališ li ih ti? / Aman, da ih žalim, ne bih ti ih dala / da ih piješ ti.



Note: _piješ _sounds strange to me in this context. Either archaism or dialectalism from SE Serbia, or poetic license.

I think it would be interesting to try this for a few more examples. Perhaps we should try finding some Gorani folk song and seeing what its equivalents in modern standard languages are?

Here is one ("Goranske narodne pesme", Harun Hasani, 1987):



> У тре ће идем млогу далеко / млогу далеко во туђа земна
> во туђа земна, vо туђ мемлечет / на пусти гурбет, за пусте паре.
> Ће се одвој'м од родбина, од фамилија / од мила мајка и од бабета
> ка ће се одвој'м од карасевда' / и ситен ћелеч.
> Кога се двојме од луде деца / уста ми збори, среце ми гори.
> Ах мори мајко и мили бабо / ми сте пратиле на пусти гурбет / ми сте пратиле за пусте паре.
> Сви работаме со стра во срце / да ли ће најдеме шо сме остајле
> бабета и мајка, браћа и сестре / деца и жена и цела родбина.


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)

The version in Serbian Latin alphabet:


> U tre će idem mlogu daleko / mlogu daleko vo tuđa zemna
> vo tuđa zemna, vo tuđ memlečet / na pusti gurbet, za puste pare
> Će se odvoj'm od rodbina, od familija / od mila majka i od babeta
> ka će se odvoj'm od karasevda' / i siten ćeleč
> Koga se dvojme od lude deca / usta mi zbori, srece mi gori
> Ah mori majko i mili babo / mi ste pratile na pusti gurbet / mi ste pratile za puste pare
> Svi rabotame so stra vo srce / da li će najdeme šo sme ostajle
> babeta i majka, braća i sestre / deca i žena i cela rodbina


(extended quote; no copyright restrictions)


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## Sobakus

For comparison, here's the Russian translations:

I translated this one in folkish style. I presume, piti is _to drink_ here.
Р*у*сы к*о*сы у теб*я*, д*е*вка / не ж*а*лко теб*е* их? / К*о*ли б ж*а*лко мне их б*ы*ло, не дал*а* бы / теб*е* их перебир*а*ть.
Б*е*ло лиц*о* у теб*я*, д*е*вка / не ж*а*лко теб*е* ег*о*? / К*о*ли б ж*а*лко мне ег*о* б*ы*ло, не дал*а* бы / теб*е* ег*о* целов*а*ть.
Мед*о*вы уст*а* у теб*я*, д*е*вка / не ж*а*лко теб*е* их? / К*о*ли б ж*а*лко мне их б*ы*ло, не дал*а* бы / теб*е* из них исп*и*ть.

This is my attempt at translating the Lord's Prayer into modern Russian based on some of the better translations I've found, but almost everyone uses the OCS variant or its slightly modernised version.


> От*е*ц наш на небес*а*х,
> Пусть б*у*дет св*я*то *и*мя тво*ё*.
> Пусть прид*ё*т ц*а*рство тво*ё*.
> Пусть б*у*дет в*о*ля тво*я* и на земл*е*, как на н*е*бе.
> Хлеб наш нас*у*щный дай нам сег*о*дня
> И прост*и* нам долг*и* н*а*ши,
> Так же как и мы прощ*а*ем должник*а*м н*а*шим.
> И не введ*и* нас в искуш*е*ние,
> Но изб*а*вь ото зл*а*.


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## iobyo

DenisBiH said:


> Note: _piješ _sounds strange to me in this context. Either archaism or dialectalism from SE Serbia, or poetic license.



Well in my neck of the woods, smoking is _пие цигари_. 



DenisBiH said:


> I think it would be interesting to try this for  a few more examples. Perhaps we should try finding some Gorani folk song and seeing what its equivalents in modern standard languages are?



I'll keep in it Latin script.

Utre će odam mnogu daleku / mnogu daleku vo tuđa zemja​ Vo tuđa zemja, vo tuđ _memlečet_ / na pusti gurbet, za pusti pari​ Će se odvojam od rodbina, od familija / od mila majka i od baba(jko)​ _Ka_ će se odvojam od karasevda / i siten _ćeleč_​ Koga se dvoime od _lude_ deca / usta mi zbori, srce mi gori​ Ah mori majko i mili baba(jko) / mi ste pratile na pusti gurbet / mi ste pratile za pusti pari​ Site rabotame so strav vo srce / dali će najdeme što sme ostavile​ Baba(jko) i majka, braća i sestri / deca i žena i cela rodbina​ 
I'm not familiar with the italicised words. _Gurbet _is widely used but _pečalba _is prefered. _Baba _and _babajko_ are used by Macedonian-speaking muslims, so that's why I've used it here. _Zbori _and _rabota _are also widely used but _zboruva_ and _raboti _are prefered in the standard. I understand the _mi_ in _mi ste pratile _as being an intensifier as in _kako si mi? _(BCS) ~ _kako mi si? _(Mac.).


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## Gnoj

iobyo said:


> Utre *ć*e odam mnogu daleku / mnogu daleku vo tu*đ*a zemja


For God's sake don't use Ć i Đ in Macedonian, please.  It's just not accurate. If you don't like Ḱ and Ǵ, at least use Kj and Gj.


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## DenisBiH

As for _memlečet_, I think it would be this:

memlećet


> reg. ekspr. mjesto, prostor života i čovjekove djelatnosti; država, zemlja, zavičaj, rodni kraj
> 
> tur. memleket ← arap. mämläkä



Judging by the context, I think _država _fits best. I have no idea what _ćeleč _is.

Here is my attempt at a translation to standard Serbian, keeping it as close as possible to the original. Words I don't understand either in the context or not at all are in italics.



> Sutra ću da idem mnogo daleko / mnogo daleko u tuđu zemlju
> u tuđu zemlju, u tuđu državu / na pusti gurbet, za puste pare
> Odvojiću se od rodbine, od familije / od mile majke i od babe/baba/tate/oca
> _ka _ću da se odvojim od karasevdaha / i sitnog _ćeleča_
> Kada se odvajamo od _lude _(ljudi (i)?) dece / usta mi zbore, srce mi gori
> Ah more majko i mili babo / pratili ste me na pusti gurbet / pratili ste me za puste pare
> Svi radimo sa strahom u srcu / da li ćemo da nađemo (ono) što smo ostavili
> babu/baba/tatu/oca i majku, braću i sestre / decu i ženu i celu rodbinu


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## DenisBiH

Gnoj said:


> For God's sake don't use Ć i Đ in Macedonian, please.  It's just not accurate. If you don't like Ḱ and Ǵ, at least use Kj and Gj.



I of course would not like to interfere in this issue, but your comment makes me wonder what the exact pronunciation of sounds rendered above as ћ and ђ among Goranci is. Harun Hasani seems to belong to the pro-Serb party among them, so theoretically he would have been more likely to want to use Serbian spelling even if the sounds don't exactly match. However, perhaps that's a topic for another thread, so I'll just leave this as a nota bene.

EDIT: According to the Wikipedia article, those Gorani sounds really are ć and đ:


> With Serbian it also shares the reflex of */tj, dj/ as /tɕ/, as opposed to standard Macedonian /c/ (‹ќ›).[8]



By the way, I believe I've read someone (iobyo?) say that some pre-1940s Macedonian authors used Cyrillic Ћ and Ђ for Ќ and Ѓ sounds.


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## iobyo

Gnoj said:


> For God's sake don't use Ć i Đ in Macedonian, please.  It's just not accurate. If you don't like Ḱ and Ǵ, at least use Kj and Gj.



I only used Latin to make it easier to visually compare the two pieces (also why I used _ć _and _đ_).

The only time I don't mind Latin is where transliteration is common practice (street signs, passports, etc.).



DenisBiH said:


> As for _memlečet_, I think it would be this:
> 
> memlećet
> 
> 
> Judging by the context, I think _država _fits best. I have no idea what _ćeleč _is.



A Google Books search for _мемлеќет _yields a few good results. _Ќелеч _does not.



DenisBiH said:


> I of course would not like to interfere in this  issue, but your comment makes me wonder what the exact pronunciation of  sounds rendered above as ћ and ђ among Goranci is.



The Macedonian dialect that borders the Gora dialect pronounces these sounds just as in BCS, so I suspect it may be the same in Gora.



DenisBiH said:


> By the way, I believe I've read someone (iobyo?) say that some pre-1940s  Macedonian authors used Cyrillic Ћ and Ђ for Ќ and Ѓ sounds.



Some used Serbian Cyrillic with the Serbian spelling conventions of the time, others did the same with Bulgarian Cyrillic. Then there are those who adapted one or more of these with varying consistency, some notably even designed their own glyphs.


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## Gnoj

DenisBiH said:


> By the way, I believe I've read someone (iobyo?) say that some pre-1940s Macedonian authors used Cyrillic Ћ and Ђ for Ќ and Ѓ sounds.


That's during the time of Serbian rule of today's R. Macedonia's territory between 1913 and 1941, when there was no codified standard Macedonian language and the letters Ќ and Ѓ still didn't exist. Prior to that were used Кь and Гь, and in some rare occasions - К' and Г'.


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## Santanawinds

iobyo said:


> I only used Latin to make it easier to visually compare the two pieces (also why I used _ć _and _đ_).
> 
> The only time I don't mind Latin is where transliteration is common practice (street signs, passports, etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> ....




Please do use Latin whenever possible, because this topic is very interesting and I don't know the Cyrillic alphabet (yet). I have learned some letters with the help of road signs in Bosnia, but that only means that I have perfected my ability to read the names of rivers, roads, cities and villages 

And now I see Iobyo mentioned there are differences between Serbian Cyrillic and Bulgarian Cyrillic? Hm! I had no idea! This is good to know, considering my plan to visit Bulgaria as soon as I learn the Cyrillic that's used on Bosnian road signs!


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## DenisBiH

Santanawinds said:


> Please do use Latin whenever possible,  because this topic is very interesting and I don't know the Cyrillic  alphabet (yet). I have learned some letters with the help of road signs  in Bosnia, but that only means that I have perfected my ability to read  the names of rivers, roads, cities and villages
> 
> And now I see Iobyo mentioned there are differences between Serbian  Cyrillic and Bulgarian Cyrillic? Hm! I had no idea! This is good to  know, considering my plan to visit Bulgaria as soon as I learn the  Cyrillic that's used on Bosnian road signs!



Actually, modern Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian Cyrillic alphabets all have some letters that are used in one of them but not in the others. Here you can see the letters specific to Serbian Cyrillic and other differences between the Serbian and other Cyrillic alphabets.

Serbian alphabet used to use many of the letters that are still in use in Bulgarian before roughly the middle of the 19th century, but has since been reformed. Here is the famous Njegoš's "Mountain Wreath" in its original (I believe) form - Горскıй вıенацъ.


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## Arath

Lord's prayer in Bulgarian:


> Отче наш, Който си на небесата!
> Да се свети Твоето име,
> да дойде Твоето Царство,
> да бъде Твоята воля,
> както на небето, тъй и на земята;
> Насъщния ни хляб дай ни днес,
> и прости нам дълговете ни,
> както и ние прощаваме на нашите длъжници,
> и не въведи нас в изкушение,
> но избави ни от лукавия;
> защото Твое е царството,
> и силата, и славата вовеки.
> Амин.


Transliteration:


> *O*tče naš, K*o*jto si na nebes*a*ta!
> Da se svet*i* Tv*o*eto *i*me,
> da d*o*jde Tv*o*eto C*a*rstvo,
> da b*ă*de Tv*o*jata v*o*lja,
> k*a*kto na neb*e*to, tăj i na zemj*a*ta;
> Nas*ă*štnija ni hljab daj ni dnes,
> i prost*i* nam d*ă*lgovete ni,
> k*a*kto i n*i*e prošt*a*vame na n*a*šite dlăžn*i*ci,
> i ne văved*i* nas v izkuš*e*nie,
> no izbav*i* ni ot luk*a*vija;
> zašt*o*to Tv*o*e e c*a*rstvoto,
> i s*i*lata, i sl*a*vata vov*e*ki.
> Am*i*n.


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## DenisBiH

Arath said:


> ...
> и не въведи *нас *в изкушение,
> но избави *ни *от лукавия;
> ...



What is the difference between *нас *(nas) and *ни* (ni)?


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## Arath

DenisBiH said:


> What is the difference between *нас *(nas) and *ни* (ni)?



*нас* (nas) is the long accusative form, and the form used after prepositions.
*ни* (ni) is the short accusative (no izbavi *ni*), short dative (daj *ni* dnes) and short possessive form (Nasăštnija *ni* hljab).

We use the long accusative forms of the personal pronouns instead of the short ones when we want to stress them.

In this case, you could also use *ни* (ni), "*и не въведи ни*" (i ne văvedi ni).


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## Gnoj

This may be for the "false friends" topic:

(*nas*)* ni* (BG) = (nas) nè (MK) = nas (SR) ≈ us (EN)
(na nas) ni (BG) = (*nas*)* ni* (MK) = nam (SR) ≈ to us (EN)


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## lavverats

Mhm. It's always been strange to me to see (or hear) "Mene m*i* e sram, madam" istead of "Men(e) m*e *e sram, madam".


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## Vulcho

The Lord's prayer is not an example of standard Bulgarian, nor anything like spoken Bulgarian. A sentence like "Не въведи нас" or "Не погледни мене" is just wrong imo, from a modern point of view.


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## DenisBiH

Well ok then, here is the Lord's Prayer in its official standard Croatian version  used by Catholics (taken from Wikipedia), and my attempt at translating  into a more-or-less modern standard Bosnian.

Croatian, official


> Oče naš,
> koji jesi na nebesima,
> sveti se ime tvoje,
> dođi kraljevstvo tvoje,
> budi volja tvoja,
> kako na nebu tako i na zemlji.
> 
> Kruh naš svagdanji daj nam danas,
> i otpusti nam duge naše,
> kako i mi otpuštamo dužnicima našim,
> i ne uvedi nas u napast,
> nego izbavi nas od zla.
> Amen



Bosnian, modern


> Oče naš,
> koji si na nebu / nebesima
> neka je sveto Tvoje ime,
> neka dođe Tvoje kraljevstvo,
> neka bude po Tvojoj volji,
> kako na nebu tako i na zemlji.
> 
> Daj nam danas naš svakodnevni kruh/hljeb
> i oprosti nam naše dugove,
> kao što i mi opraštamo svojim dužnicima,
> i ne dovodi nas u iskušenje,
> nego nas izbavi od zla.
> Amen



The word order is more everyday/conversational in the second version, the original is highly poetic.


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## osemnais

Who can understand and translate this? 


> От икебана дървесата ги боли...


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## Gnoj

osemnais said:


> Who can understand and translate this?
> 
> 
> 
> От икебана дървесата ги боли...
Click to expand...

Something like "they are fed up with ikebana"??? I can't find any deeper meaning.


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## DenisBiH

HJP gives several definitions for ikebana. I'd say the one I'm most familiar with and that I think is most frequently used here is the last one (a political figurehead with no actual power; sometimes also a group or entity (like a political party) with little or no actual power, just "for show").

What is  _дървеса(та)_?


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## Arath

DenisBiH said:


> What is  _дървеса(та)_?


Definite plural of дърво (tree), so "дървесата" means "the trees".


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## Azori

Gnoj said:


> Personally, I'm curious about differences between Czech and Slovak,


I thought that this might perhaps be of some interest (also available here). Unfortunately, I don't know of any decent stuff written on this topic in English being freely available online.

I would also like to note that some letters or words that look the same in Slovak and Czech (when written) may have considerably different pronunciation. For instance, in the Czech word den (day) and the Slovak word deň (day) the letters _d_ represent quite distinct sounds. In Slovak, the letter _d_ is pronounced as if it was spelled with a caron (that is, like _ď_) in this case. I'd say that some knowledge of the Slovak and Czech orthographies is necessary in order to compare texts in these languages and to form opinions.


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