# Το γράμμα <<ϋ>>



## LoraLanguage

Does such a letter "ϋ" in the Greek language exist? I met the word "χόκεϋ" but I think it is correct to be written "χόκεϊ". I'm right about that, aren't I? Actually I have met that letter before but I'm still not sure if it exists...


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## Nona35

Yes you're right and it means "hokey".


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## ireney

The letter is, of course, just an upsilon. The two dots on top of it are called "diairesis" (more commonly referred to in Greek as διαλυτικά). Their purpose is to make sure that a combination of vowels that would otherwise be pronounced as one are to be pronounced as two separate vowels. They are only necessary if the accent mark is either in a third vowel or on the second vowel of the combination. So, "γάιδαρος" but "καϊμάκι".
In the case of this particular example, "y" is usually transliterated as "υ". It is only when the spelling is "simplified" that it turns into a iota. The word "party" for instance was till rather recently spelled "πάρτυ". Now however it is spelled "πάρτι".


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## LoraLanguage

Thank you! I didn't know that!


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## alfie1888

A similar example is the word for volley ball: βόλ(λ)εϋ. I'm not sure if the spelling has been simplified by now to βόλεϊ...


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## Armas

alfie1888 said:


> A similar example is the word for volley ball: βόλ(λ)εϋ. I'm not sure if the spelling has been simplified by now to βόλεϊ...



And τρόλ(λ)εϋ / τρόλεϊ.

There are words in which ϋ is unquestionably the only possible spelling: προϋπόθεση, προϋπολογισμός etc.


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## LoraLanguage

Armas said:


> And τρόλ(λ)εϋ / τρόλεϊ.
> 
> There are words in which ϋ is unquestionably the only possible spelling: προϋπόθεση, προϋπολογισμός etc.



Thank you! I wrote "τρόλεϋ" in Google but it corrected me! In each site it was written "τρόλεϊ".
But I have only one question. From the explanations that I received I understood that the purpose of the dots is to show that we have to pronounce the combination of vowels as two separated vowels and nothing more. But we don't pronounce "προϋπόθεση" as "proupothesi" but as "proipothesi". So this letter "ϋ" (upsilon with dots) is always pronounced as "i"... Am I right? I'm sorry but I'm a little bit confused!


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## LoraLanguage

alfie1888 said:


> A similar example is the word for volley ball: βόλ(λ)εϋ. I'm not sure if the spelling has been simplified by now to βόλεϊ...


I wrote "βόλεϊ" in Internet and I found it written in four different ways: βόλεϊ-μπολ, βόλεϊ μπολ, βόλεϋ μπολ και βόλει-μπολ but the last one is obviously wrong. Do you know which one is correct? I guess it is the first one because most often it was written in that way.


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## alfie1888

LoraLanguage said:


> I wrote "βόλεϊ" in Internet and I found it written in four different ways: βόλεϊ-μπολ, βόλεϊ μπολ, βόλεϋ μπολ και βόλει-μπολ but the last one is obviously wrong. Do you know which one is correct? I guess it is the first one because most often it was written in that way.



To be honest, the transliteration of foreign words into Greek - especially from English - is a bit of a nightmare. The last one, in fact, is right (minus the hyphen) as it is the closest to the original English pronunciation [/ˈvɒlɪbɔːl/]. The one I have seen most often is "βόλεϋ", but that could just be because I rarely read about sports!

In short, there can be no "correct" way to write foreign words in Greek. Thus, it's usually better just to resign (as I do) and use the Latin script unless the word is well and truly established in the language, such as τρακτέρ - for which I'd never write the original French 'tracteur'.

Hope that helps!


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## ireney

Hello Loral,

rule number one: when it comes to internet search results take the examples with about a pound of grains of salt 

Now, when it comes to transliteration of foreign words there is indeed some  confusion for there are two schools of thought. This, however, is a subject for a different thread if you want us to expand on it.

Now to the pronunciation of ypsilon with diairesis/διαλυτικά. Yes, it is always pronounced as i. Iota with diairesis is always pronounced as i.
However, look at the example you asked about: "προϋπόθεση". If it did not have the diairesis, if it was written "προυπόθεση" well then, according to the rules of the Greek language would require us to pronounce it as *proupothessi. Therefore we put those marks to make sure it's pronounced properly.

Let's take two other words: Gaidaros and gaidouri. Now both include what looks like the diphthong (modern Greek meaning) Alpha iota (ΑΙ). According to the rules of the Greek language, they'd be pronounced Gedaros and gedouri. However their real pronunciation is gaidaros and gaidouri (can't remember my IPA right now).
In the case of the first word, we do NOT need the diairesis. Why? Because the rules tell us that the accent of the diphthong is always on the second letter. Since the word is pronounce gAidaros (γάιδαρος) we can see that it's two separate vowels at a glance. What about gaidOUri however. Writing *γαιδούρι does not give us any information about the "αι". So when we write it we include the diairesis, γαϊδούρι.

I think part of the confusion stems from how we view things. We do not see *ϋ* or *ϊ *as separate letters. We view them as the good old ypsilon and iota that, because of the position they are in within the word. need an extra mark above them.

Last but not least: the right way to spell "voley" no matter how far it is from the English pronunciation, is βόλεϊ. When we are not being lazy and want to include the second part of the word "volleyball" then βόλεϊ μπολ (in frankness however we do not every say we're going to watch volley ball. We watch/play/whatever volley". If we want to talk further about volleyball we should do it in a separate thread however.


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## LoraLanguage

ireney said:


> Hello Loral,
> 
> rule number one: when it comes to internet search results take the examples with about a pound of grains of salt
> 
> Now, when it comes to transliteration of foreign words there is indeed some  confusion for there are two schools of thought. This, however, is a subject for a different thread if you want us to expand on it.
> 
> Now to the pronunciation of ypsilon with diairesis/διαλυτικά. Yes, it is always pronounced as i. Iota with diairesis is always pronounced as i.
> However, look at the example you asked about: "προϋπόθεση". If it did not have the diairesis, if it was written "προυπόθεση" well then, according to the rules of the Greek language would require us to pronounce it as *proupothessi. Therefore we put those marks to make sure it's pronounced properly.
> 
> Let's take two other words: Gaidaros and gaidouri. Now both include what looks like the diphthong (modern Greek meaning) Alpha iota (ΑΙ). According to the rules of the Greek language, we would be then pronounce them Gedaros and gedouri. However their real pronunciation is gaidaros and gaidouri (can't remember my IPA right now).
> In the case of the first word, we do NOT need the diairesis. Why? Because the rules tell us that the accent of the diphthong is always on the second letter. Since the word is pronounce gAidaros (γάιδαρος) we can see that it's two separate vowels at a glance. What about gaidOUri however. Writing *γαιδούρι does not give us any information about the "αι". So when we write it we include the diairesis, γαϊδούρι.
> 
> I think part of the confusion stems from how we view things. We do not see *ϋ* or *ϊ *as separate letters. We view them as the good old ypsilon and iota that, because of the position they are in within the word. need an extra mark above them.
> 
> Last but not least: the right way to spell "voley" no matter how far it is from the English pronunciation, is βόλεϊ. When we are not being lazy and want to include the second part of the word "volleyball" then βόλεϊ μπολ (in frankness however we do not every say we're going to watch volley ball. We watch/play/whatever volley". If we want to talk further about volleyball we should do it in a separate thread however.



Thank you for the comprehensive explanation! All information is very useful! I learnt some things that I didn't know until now!


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## LoraLanguage

alfie1888 said:


> To be honest, the transliteration of foreign words into Greek - especially from English - is a bit of a nightmare. The last one, in fact, is right (minus the hyphen) as it is the closest to the original English pronunciation [/ˈvɒlɪbɔːl/]. The one I have seen most often is "βόλεϋ", but that could just be because I rarely read about sports!
> 
> In short, there can be no "correct" way to write foreign words in Greek. Thus, it's usually better just to resign (as I do) and use the Latin script unless the word is well and truly established in the language, such as τρακτέρ - for which I'd never write the original French 'tracteur'.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Yes, may be this is the only way to be sure that you write it correctly...  Thanks for your help!


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## Αγγελος

As also with the letter ι, the diaeresis over the letter υ can also be combined with the accent: Ταΰγετος (a mountain in the Peloponnesus, pronounced ta-í-je-tos), Καΰστριο Πεδίο (a plain in Asia Minor), προΰπαρξη (=preëxistence)... (I can't really think of other examples offhand.)
As an amusing aside, it should be mentioned that there is only one pair of words that are distinguished _only_ by the presence or absence of a diaeresis: παιδάκια (=young children) and παϊδάκια (=chops, as in lamb chops).

As for foreign words, it was already stipulated in the 1941 official Νεοελληνική Γραμματική (της Δημοτικής), published by the Ministry of Education and commonly known as του Τριανταφυλλίδη, after its principal author, that they should be spelt in the simplest possible way, i.e. with ι, ε and ο rather than, say, with η, αι or ω. This was not applied in practice until the legal consecration of Δημοτική in the mid-1970's, but two generations have since grown up learning this simplified spelling and it has largely prevailed, so that people now spell τρένο, χόκεϊ, Οσμάν (for Georges-Eugène Haussmann of Paris as well as for the founder of the Ottoman dynasty!). Some of us old curmudgeons still balk at λέδη for λαίδη or I for Robert Hue, and it can be argued that the sound of French u/German ü should be transcribed as υ, but on the whole one would do best to follow the simplified spelling.


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