# Norwegian: Spoken Bokmål



## LMatt88

I came across a Norwegian student the other day who told me that even though I will be understood speaking Bokmål no one really speaks it in Norway.
I was wondering though, how is that possible if spoken Bokmål is Oslo dialect? or am I wrong?. Thanks in advance!


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## Svenke

Most Norwegians speak some local dialect from the area where he/she grew up. 
Many modern dialects in Oslo and the surrounding areas of Eastern Norway are rather similar to Bokmål. 
The Bergen dialect is also close to Bokmål.

So, rather few speak strictly Bokmål, but many speak something quite similar.

Svenke


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## Annacdote

Also, bokmål is not a dialect, but one of our two writing standards. When we say that someone "speaks" bokmål, we basically mean the characteristics in the way they speak, are so similar to how the words are written, the girl or lad who speaks pretty much is vocalizing the letters. 
(If that makes sense?)


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## Ma_linka

LMatt88 said:


> I came across a Norwegian student the other day who told me that even though I will be understood speaking Bokmål no one really speaks it in Norway.


I think that student didn't clarify what he/she meant.
There are two standards of the Norwegian language: Bokmål and nynorsk. There are also various dialects of the language, i.e., almost each area/city has its own spoken variation of the language (for example, Trøndersk in Trondheim). But they are all considered bokmål. 
I think what the student meant was that noone basically speaks "classical" norwegian, which he/she accidentially called Bokmål, that is, every region has its own dialect.


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## raumar

Ma_linka said:


> There are two standards of the Norwegian language: Bokmål and nynorsk. There are also various dialects of the language, i.e., almost each area/city has its own spoken variation of the language (for example, Trøndersk in Trondheim). But they are all considered bokmål.



I'm afraid that's not really the case. As Annacdote said, Bokmål and Nynorsk are written standards while dialects are spoken. That is probably what the student meant: You don't speak a written standard. At least not in principle. 

In practice, as Svenke explained, many dialects are quite similar to Bokmål. But it is wrong to say that "they are all considered Bokmål". Some dialects are closer to Bokmål, others are closer to Nynorsk, and some are quite distinct from both. There are also variations within dialects. Take Trøndersk, for example. One variety of Trøndersk can be called "spoken Bokmål": the so-called "Fintrøndersk", spoken in some of the more wealthy neighbourhoods in Trondheim. Here the words are pronounced almost like they are spelt in written Bokmål, but the intonation is Trøndersk. In other parts of Trøndelag, especially the rural areas, I think people would be insulted if you called their spoken language "Bokmål" (even though most of them use Bokmål as their written standard). 

To make things even more complicated: Many people also use their dialect when they write, especially when their dialect is quite distinct from both Bokmål and Nynorsk. They don't use it in any formal writing, but in social media, emails etc. There are no official standards for written dialects - people just write like they speak. Take the personal pronoun that is "I" in English, for example. Many people from Trøndelag and Northern Norway use "æ" when they write informal messages, instead of the Bokmål word "jeg" or the Nynorsk word "eg". 

But we should not exaggerate the differences, either: we all understand each other!


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## LMatt88

So I get that when people say "we don't speak Bokmål" they are actually saying we don't pronounce exactly as it's written (like my native language for example)


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## Ma_linka

raumar said:


> But we should not exaggerate the differences, either: we all understand each other!


Exactly!
Okay, okay, I know that Norwegians are very proud of their dialects 
They did create their own dialects in almost every area of Norway. Some Norwegians claim they don't write or speak bokmål. Perhaps the reason for that is historical: Norwegians and Danish had the same language for 150 years, and today Norwegians want to emphasize that they have their _own _language. That is why some of them stress the fact that they don't speak/write Bokmål but rather their dialect that is a truly Norwegian "invention".
To unite the country more, in my opinion, there should be one written standard in the country, that is Bokmål, and various spoken dialects. Apart from nynorsk, of course.


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## raumar

Ma_linka said:


> Some Norwegians claim they don't write or speak bokmål.



I don't really think that is the case. It is necessary to make a distinction between written and spoken language. Many people would say that they don't speak Bokmål (or Nynorsk), but nobody would say that they don't write either Bokmål or Nynorsk. We learn these written standards in school. We always use them when we write formal texts, and often in informal messages as well.

Edited: Most people would probably say that they speak Norwegian, not Bokmål or Nynorsk. 



LMatt88 said:


> So I get that when people say "we don't speak Bokmål" they are actually saying we don't pronounce exactly as it's written (like my native language for example)



Yes, but I think different Norwegians see this in different ways. Some people would say that Bokmål is a written standard, and therefore, by definition, we only write it -- we don't speak it. Other people will claim that they speak Bokmål, especially if their dialect is similar to Bokmål.


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## Ben Jamin

raumar said:


> I don't really think that is the case. It is necessary to make a distinction between written and spoken language. Many people would say that they don't speak Bokmål (or Nynorsk), but nobody would say that they don't write either Bokmål or Nynorsk. We learn these written standards in school. We always use them when we write formal texts, and often in informal messages as well.
> 
> Edited: Most people would probably say that they speak Norwegian, not Bokmål or Nynorsk.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think different Norwegians see this in different ways. Some people would say that Bokmål is a written standard, and therefore, by definition, we only write it -- we don't speak it. Other people will claim that they speak Bokmål, especially if their dialect is similar to Bokmål.


Differences between spoken and written language exist in almost every modern monoligual society primarily because of a difference between coloquial and formal/litterary language, so Norwegians that swear they don't speak Bokmål just simply state that they use a colloquial language for everyday use, but I don't think that the differences between language registers are unusually big compared to other societies.


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## mexerica feliz

Spoken moderate Bogmaal can be found in upscale neighborhoods of Bergen like Fana (especially in fancy boroughs like Paradis), it is the same language as used in Aftenposten or VG newpapers, no feminine gender, and all past forms of 1st conjugation verbs are in -et.
In Oslo, many people (over)use the the feminine gender and -a past forms, this may  not be accepted in writing by most professors because moderate Bogmaal close to Rigsmaal is the prestige version of Bogmaal and not radical Bogmaal aka Samnorsk.

Bogmaal has (too) many optional forms, but they differ in prestige:

_min elska
min elskete
min elskede
_
The more Danish-like form is, the more prestige it has.
That's why the most prestigious forms in spoken Norwegian are Oslo-West and Fana-Bergen.
The least prestigious are those close to Samnorsk, Oslo-East comes to mind.


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## Ben Jamin

mexerica feliz said:


> Spoken moderate Bogmaal can be found in upscale neighborhoods of Bergen like Fana (especially in fancy boroughs like Paradis), it is the same language as used in Aftenposten or VG newpapers, no feminine gender, and all past forms of 1st conjugation verbs are in -et.
> 
> In Oslo, many people (over)use the the feminine gender and -a past forms, this may  not be accepted in writing by most professors because moderate Bogmaal close to Rigsmaal is the prestige version of Bogmaal and not radical Bogmaal aka Samnorsk.


"Bogmaa"l: Why do you use Danish spelling here?
"not be accepted in writing by most professors": What do you mean by "professors"? In Norway only University highest grade teachers are called professors. Schools accept everything that is accepted in the very liberal rules of Bokmål, and even more. 
"it is the same language as used in Aftenposten or VG newpapers": when did you last read Aftenposten and VG? 30 years ago?
"... radical Bogmaal aka Samnorsk": "Samnorsk" is never spoken about today, except in historical  publications.

All your information seems to be taken from a really old book that you found in an attic.


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## tewlwolow

mexerica feliz said:


> Spoken moderate Bogmaal can be found in upscale neighborhoods of Bergen like Fana (especially in fancy boroughs like Paradis), it is the same language as used in Aftenposten or VG newpapers, no feminine gender, and all past forms of 1st conjugation verbs are in -et.
> In Oslo, many people (over)use the the feminine gender and -a past forms, this may  not be accepted in writing by most professors because moderate Bogmaal close to Rigsmaal is the prestige version of Bogmaal and not radical Bogmaal aka Samnorsk.
> 
> Bogmaal has (too) many optional forms, but they differ in prestige:
> 
> _min elska
> min elskete
> min elskede
> _
> The more Danish-like form is, the more prestige it has.
> That's why the most prestigious forms in spoken Norwegian are Oslo-West and Fana-Bergen.
> The least prestigious are those close to Samnorsk, Oslo-East comes to mind.



Also, some newspapers (not sure about the ones you mentioned) have a preset space devoted to texts in nynorsk. What's more, I can hardly imagine Aftenposten article with "sol_en_", "jent_en_" or "barn_ene_", instead of sol_a,_ jent_a_, barn_a_...


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## raumar

tewlwolow said:


> I can hardly imagine Aftenposten article with "sol_en_", "jent_en_" or "barn_ene_", instead of sol_a,_ jent_a_, barn_a_...



That's true today, but it has not always been like that. Aftenposten used to be a Riksmål newspaper, using , for example, "nu" (instead of "nå") and "efter" (instead of "etter") until about the 1980s. So Aftenposten's language has certainly changed in a less conservative direction. 

I am not sure whether some newspapers have a preset space for Nynorsk. I think newspapers such as Bergens Tidende and Stavanger Aftenblad simply allow their journalists to write the form of Norwegian that they prefer, while the major Oslo newspapers require their journalists to write Bokmål.


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## tewlwolow

Yes, of course. But riksmål is gone, and these words with_ felleskjøn_ would be considered out of place in modern bokmål.

That's what I heard about those "national" (_landsdekkende_) newspapers, and that it's a move against marginalisation of nynorsk in bokmål-using areas.

I have just skimmed through the net in search of these newspapers that have obligatory nynorsk, and I haven't found anything  I must have misheard it. I have, however, found these:

Vil tvinge nynorsk inn i avisene

Vil tvinge nynorsk inn i avisene

The articles are 10 years old, though; I'm not sure they truly introduced these regulations?


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## raumar

tewlwolow said:


> The articles are 10 years old, though; I'm not sure they truly introduced these regulations?



No, this was just a proposal from _Språkrådet_. They don't have the authority to enforce this kind of regulation. And I am sure that the newspapers would protest loudly - they would see it as an infringement on the freedom of the press. 

There has actually been Nynorsk articles (or at least one) in _Aftenposten_ lately, but for a completely different reason. _Aftenposten_, _Bergens Tidende_, _Stavanger Aftenblad_ and_ Fedrelandsvænnen_ have entered into a cooperation, where articles from one of these newspapers can be printed in the others.The reason is of course the need to save money. I have seen at least one nynorsk article in_ Aftenposten_, written by a _Stavanger Aftenblad_ journalist.


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## tewlwolow

This is a bit funny, though, because disallowing one of the official (sic!) language versions from being used in a newspaper is, in fact, also a sharp discrimination and freedom of speech infrigement. But that's a wholly different issue.

Thanks for information!


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