# Vowels in Hebrew and Arabic



## Calin

Hi everybody

My name is Calin, I was born and live in Romania. For the past 6 months I lived in Israel (Haifa). I managed to get myself aquainted a bit with the Hebrew langauage, I learned the letters and maybe I know 100 words.
Towards the end of my stay there I started to gain interest in Arabic also. I find it the most fascinating language I have ever heard.
Anyway, here's the question. This has bugged me most from the beginning about these languages: are there any rules for inserting the vowels? I've asked people there but I received contradictory answers. Someone said that there actually are books that describe the rules, but no non-specialist knows them (obviously).
For some reason I have a sick curiosity about this, I can't stop to wonder about the logic behind it.
Thanks.


Calin


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## amikama

Hi Calin and welcome to the WR forums.

I'll answer for the Hebrew part, since I don't know Arabic.


			
				Calin said:
			
		

> Anyway, here's the question. This has bugged me most from the beginning about these languages: are there any rules for inserting the vowels? I've asked people there but I received contradictory answers. Someone said that there actually are books that describe the rules, but no non-specialist knows them (obviously).


Do you mean the vowel marks (_nikkud_ in Hebrew)? If so -- yes, there are rules, but they are rather complicated, especially if you're new to Hebrew. And yes, non-specialists don't know them, but still they can read a vowelized text.
There is a website that describes the rules, but unfortunately it's in Hebrew only, and I don't think it's suitable to a Hebrew learner.


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## Jana337

> This has bugged me most from the beginning about these languages: are there any rules for inserting the vowels?


My experience from Arabic: You never know If you are really good at grammar, in particular word-building, you can guess some vowels (mainly in verbs, there are also some patterns in the plural of nouns and adjectives).

Jana


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## Jana337

amikama said:
			
		

> If so -- yes, there are rules, but they are rather complicated, especially if you're new to Hebrew. And yes, non-specialists don't know them, but still they can read a vowelized text.


What kind of rules do you mean? Grammar-related ones, like those I mentioned in my previous post? Or is there something deeper that I have been missing so far? A ray of hope? 

Jana


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## JLanguage

amikama said:
			
		

> Hi Calin and welcome to the WR forums.





			
				amikama said:
			
		

> I'll answer for the Hebrew part, since I don't know Arabic.
> 
> Do you mean the vowel marks (_nikkud_ in Hebrew)? If so -- yes, there are rules, but they are rather complicated, especially if you're new to Hebrew. And yes, non-specialists don't know them, but still they can read a vowelized text.
> There is a website that describes the rules, but unfortunately it's in Hebrew only, and I don't think it's suitable to for a Hebrew learner.




What's the website? I may not understand a lot of it now, but it would be good to have for the future when my Hebrew has become more advanced.

Thanks,
-Jonathan.


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## amikama

Jana337 said:
			
		

> What kind of rules do you mean? Grammar-related ones, like those I mentioned in my previous post? Or is there something deeper that I have been missing so far? A ray of hope?
> 
> Jana


Example rule: "In an unstressed and closed syllable, the vowel is short" (so if the vowel is A, the vowel mark is _patach_ (short A) and not _kamats_ (long A)).

If Calin meant guessing the vowels of nikkud-less word (e.g. דבר = davar? diber? dever?), then it's a completely different story...


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## Jana337

amikama said:
			
		

> Example rule: "In an unstressed and closed syllable, the vowel is short" (so if the vowel is A, the vowel mark is _patach_ (short A) and not _kamats_ (long A)).
> 
> If Calin meant guessing the vowels of nikkud-less word (e.g. דבר = davar? diber? dever?), then it's a completely different story...


I am afraid he has. 
Your first paragraph reminds me of a set of rules in Arabic, but my teacher said they do not matter too much because Arabs tend to pronounce long vowels as if they were short. 

Jana


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## amikama

JLanguage said:
			
		

> What's the website? I may not understand a lot of it now, but it would be good to have for the future when my Hebrew has become more advanced.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Jonathan.


חוק ניקוד ההברות
(I added this link in the "Hebrew: Resources" thread.)


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## amikama

Jana337 said:
			
		

> amikama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Calin meant guessing the vowels of nikkud-less word (e.g. דבר = davar? diber? dever?), then it's a completely different story...
> 
> 
> 
> I am afraid he has.
> Jana
Click to expand...

In this case... hmmm, I afraid there are no rules. Like what Jana said previously, it's matter of experience and recognizing some patterns.


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> because Arabs tend to pronounce long vowels as if they were short.
> 
> Jana


 
Can you elaborate on this?

I don't think Hebrew and Arabic are comparable in this regard.  Besides the "long A" (that is, the written alef), Hebrew has multiple diacritics for the same so-called "short" vowel.


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## Josh_

As well as Arabic, I am also learning Hebrew. Like others have said there are rules. Of course, not being an expert, I can’t comment on what the rules are but I do know that, for example the sound ‘a’ as in f*a*ther, there are at least 3 different vowels that have the same sound. So, conceivably, any word that uses that sound could have any of those vowels and still be pronounced the same. But, of course, there are grammar rules dictating which vowel is to be used. Some of the grammar rules, and/or vowels used in certain words, apparently go back to ancient Hebrew. And I know in at least one word, *כל* (kol; the same word as the Arabic word *كل*) which means _all_, the vowel used represents an ‘a’ sound as in f*a*ther, but the word is pronounced ‘kol’(like the Arabic word) with an ‘o’ sound as in l*o*w. Also, to complicate things, as there is more than one symbol to represent a certain vowel sound, in unvoweled texts words might be spelled different in order to clarify. So *כל* might also be spelled *כול*.


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on this?


I am afraid I can't. He (born in Syria) stressed the importance of the three types of syllables in Arabic (ba, baa, bab) but in his opinion this distinction would not help us in spoken Arabic because Arabs tend to pronounce long wovels as if they were short.

Jana


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I am afraid I can't. He (born in Syria) stressed the importance of the three types of syllables in Arabic (ba, baa, bab) but in his opinion this distinction would not help us in spoken Arabic because Arabs tend to pronounce long wovels as if they were short.
> 
> Jana


 
I don't understand what the distinction between "baa" and "bab" is supposed to be.  The "a" is pronounced the same in both cases.

As far as "pronouncing long vowels as if they were short," that is simply not true, with the possible exception of "a" at the end of a word.  To me the "a" in "ba7ar" (sea) is definitely shorter than the one in "baab" (door) - and that's in spoken Arabic.


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> I don't understand what the distinction between "baa" and "bab" is supposed to be. The "a" is pronounced the same in both cases.


The former should be long and the latter short.
Baa and bab do not stand for existing words, they are just schemes: 
Baa - consonant + vowel + vowel
Bab - consonant + vowel + consonant

The aim of this classification was to teach us that "baab" does not exist in Arabic (as a closed syllable).

Indeed, my teacher did pronounce everything very short. However, he didn't mention that his pronunciation was not general.

Jana


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> The former should be long and the latter short.
> Baa and bab do not stand for existing words, they are just schemes:
> Baa - consonant + vowel + vowel
> Bab - consonant + vowel + consonant
> 
> The aim of this classification was to teach us that "baab" does not exist in Arabic (as a closed syllable).
> 
> Indeed, my teacher did pronounce everything very short. However, he didn't mention that his pronunciation was not general.
> 
> Jana


 
What?  This is getting crazier and crazier.

Of course "baab" exists, just like "bab."

There are four possibilities: ba, baa, bab, baab.  They are all legitimate patterns that do in fact exist.

I fail to see what this teacher was getting at or what he was trying to prove...


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> What?  This is getting crazier and crazier.
> 
> Of course "baab" exists, just like "bab."
> 
> There are four possibilities: ba, baa, bab, baab.  They are all legitimate patterns that do in fact exist.
> 
> I fail to see what this teacher was getting at or what he was trying to prove...


Give me a word (possibly one known to me with baab, please.

Jana


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Give me a word (possibly one known to me with baab, please.
> 
> Jana


 
"Baab" is itself a word.  And it is not pronounced "bab."  It is pronounced long. 

The first syllable of "Babbaghaa2" (parrot), on the other hand, is pronounced "bab."

There is a clear difference.


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## Jana337

elroy said:
			
		

> "Baab" is itself a word.  And it is not pronounced "bab."  It is pronounced long.
> 
> The first syllable of "Babbaghaa2" (parrot), on the other hand, is pronounced "bab."
> 
> There is a clear difference.


OK, sorry - I should have mentioned that he was not talking about spoken Arabic. His concern was written Arabic, with all endings and declensions.
In this type of Arabic, you - if his theory is not flawed - should not find baab. It is either baa-bu or baa-bun, i.e. syllables of the three types I described above, ba, baa, bab.
Plausible enough?

Jana​


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> OK, sorry - I should have mentioned that he was not talking about spoken Arabic. His concern was written Arabic, with all endings and declensions.
> 
> In this type of Arabic, you - if his theory is not flawed - should not find baab. It is either baa-bu or baa-bun, i.e. syllables of the three types I described above, ba, baa, bab.
> Plausible enough?
> 
> Jana
> ​


 
Ok - that puts things in a completely new light! 

Yes, it sounds plausible enough; I will let you know if I think of an exception.


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## Whodunit

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> And I know in at least one word, *כל* (kol; the same word as the Arabic word *كل*) which means _all_, the vowel used represents an ‘a’ sound as in f*a*ther, but the word is pronounced ‘kol’(like the Arabic word) with an ‘o’ sound as in l*o*w. Also, to complicate things, as there is more than one symbol to represent a certain vowel sound, in unvoweled texts words might be spelled different in order to clarify. So *כל* might also be spelled *כול*.


 
I'm not sure, but in my experience *כל* and *كل* are not pronounced the same. The Hebrew letter "*כ*" is pronounced, in my opinion, like the "ch" in Scottish or German "Lo*ch*" and not as in "loo*k*". 

Furthermore, the _Standard_ Arabic doesn't know the letter "o", but uses "u", so the word should be "kull" and not "khol", because the "o"/"u" is short.


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## amikama

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I know in at least one word, *כל* (kol; the same word as the Arabic word *كل*) which means _all_, the vowel used represents an ‘a’ sound as in f*a*ther, but the word is pronounced ‘kol’(like the Arabic word) with an ‘o’ sound as in l*o*w.


That's true only when כל is part of genitive(?) structure: כָּל־ (with _kamatz katan_, which represents short 'o' vowel). When the word stands alone, it's כֹּל (with _holam, which_ represents long 'o' vowel). In modern Hebrew there is no difference between long 'o' and short 'o', and both are pronounced the same way.

The vowel sign used to represent the (long) 'a' vowel is called _kamatz gadol_ (or just _kamatz_) and is identical to the _kamatz katan_ sign (T-shape).


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## amikama

Whodunit said:
			
		

> The Hebrew letter "*כ*" is pronounced, in my opinion, like the "ch" in Scottish or German "Lo*ch*" and not as in "loo*k*".


That's true when the letter כ lacks _dagesh_ (a little point in the middle of a letter that changes its sound). כּ (with dagesh) is pronounced as 'k'. However, in text without vowel marks ("nikkud"), כ represents both sounds.

In case of כל, since כ is the first letter of this word, it must have the dagesh, and hence כל is pronounced 'kol' and not 'chol'.


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## Whodunit

amikama said:
			
		

> That's true when the letter כ lacks _dagesh_ (a little point in the middle of a letter that changes its sound). כּ (with dagesh) is pronounced as 'k'. However, in text without vowel marks ("nikkud"), כ represents both sounds.
> 
> In case of כל, since כ is the first letter of this word, it must have the dagesh, and hence כל is pronounced 'kol' and not 'chol'.


 
Oh, I didn't know that the word כל actually needs a dagesh. I knew about that point, but I never know where and when to place it. 

Thanks for the clarification, now it's clear.


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## Josh_

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm not sure, but in my experience *כל* and *كل* are not pronounced the same. The Hebrew letter "*כ*" is pronounced, in my opinion, like the "ch" in Scottish or German "Lo*ch*" and not as in "loo*k*".
> 
> Furthermore, the _Standard_ Arabic doesn't know the letter "o", but uses "u", so the word should be "kull" and not "khol", because the "o"/"u" is short.


 There might be a slight difference in the way the words are pronounced, but they are essentially the same. All I meant was that the words are very similar and have the same meaning. Both being Semitic languages they have many similariites. I don't know why but I am extremely fascinated by that. Some time I would like to start a thread discussing the similarities between Hebrew and Arabic.

It must have seemed like a non sequitur when I was talking about grammar rules going back to ancient Hebrew and then jumping to the word 'kol'. I realized that I did not finish my thought. Like I said, for some words the vowels used relate back to ancient Hebrew and that (I believe) is the case with the with 'kol' where it is marked with a long 'a' vowel but pronounced as a short 'o'. If I am wrong please correct me, amikama. And thank you for the information.

Josh


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