# Lispy character of European Spanish



## Dymn

Hi all, excuse me if this is not the proper forum to ask this.

Why is European (Castilian) Spanish said to be lispy by English speakers?

Is it because it has the /θ/ phoneme? I would think not, since English has the very same sound. But maybe since it's found in words where English would have an /s/ (e.g. /θentɾo/), or since Americans are much more familiar with Latin American Spanish, which lacks such phoneme, it may be so.

Or is it because /s/ is pronounced apico-alveolar [s̺], giving it an sh-y character?

What do you think?


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## merquiades

Dymn said:


> Hi all, excuse me if this is not the proper forum to ask this.
> 
> Why is European (Castilian) Spanish said to be lispy by English speakers?
> 
> Is it because it has the /θ/ phoneme? I would think not, since English has the very same sound. But maybe since it's fouyesnd in words where English would have an /s/ (e.g. /θentɾo/), or since Americans are much more familiar with Latin American Spanish, which lacks such phoneme, it may be so.
> 
> Or is it because /s/ is pronounced apico-alveolar [s̺], giving it an sh-y character?
> 
> What do you think?


I haven't heard English speakers call it lispy, but Latin Americans all the time.  They spread far and wide some stupid rumor about a king in Spain named Ferdinand who lisped and since he couldn't pronounce S he forced everyone in Spain to talk like him.  It spread then it stuck forever.
There is also another bad rumor among Latin Americans that it was Catalan in origin, because of the pronunciation Barthelona. There was already a thread on this in the English-Spanish forum called the Catalan lisp if you can stomach it.  So much for urban myths.

In the US you learn the Spanish your teacher(s) teache(s) you without much rhyme or reason.  My elementary school teachers had lived in Toledo back in Franco's time so she taught us that norm and lots of things about Spanish culture, history and cuisine.  I was lucky because she was good.  I could have had the other teacher who had been to Mexico, but I didn't.  There are also non-natives who have bad accents from nowhere and can be bad teachers too.  Besides, there are lots of native speakers too.  These native speakers teach the way people speak in their home country. When they arrive some don't even know the way people speak in other countries.  When I taught there I taught the Spain norm but I also gave students many Latin American words like _papa, guagua_ or _vos _whenever I knew them.

If someone did consider European Spanish lispy, I think the reasons you have given are natural.  There is the sound /θ/ in English but it usually corresponds to words with /t/ in Spanish.  It's not zeatro, Arzuro, Anzonio, myzo or azleta.  On the other hand there are indeed cads of words with s or z in English that have /θ/ in Spanish.  And saying "the thenter of the thity of tharagotha" does sound comical in English. French speakers find it funny for the same reason. There are even more c words pronounced s in that language.
Most English speakers don't know anything about the apico-alveolar s.


Maybe this ought to be in another forum but I don't know which one.


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## Hulalessar

Dymn said:


> But maybe since it's found in words where English would have an /s/ (e.g. /θentɾo/), or since Americans are much more familiar with Latin American Spanish, which lacks such phoneme, it may be so.



I think that that is exactly the answer. Spanish is no more lispy than any other language with the phoneme /θ/. It appears so to speakers of languages who pronounce <c> before <e> and <i> as /s/ in words derived from Latin as in the example of "centro"  - and that includes Latin American Spanish speakers.


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## Cenzontle

I was taught a plausible hypothesis about the /θ/ phoneme in Peninsular Spanish.
Old (=  medieval) Spanish is thought too have had a dental affricate phoneme that we might approximate as /ts/,
spelled <ç>, as in "la caça", 'the hunt'.
It also had (after the sibilants lost their voicing) the apicoalveolar /ş/ phoneme heard today in northern Spain, as in "la casa", 'the house'.
(I put a cedilla on the /ş/ for lack of knowledge of what the correct diacritic would be.)
The affricate lost its /t/ component, leaving /s/ and /ş/ to either merge or try to maintain contrast.
In Andalusia, they merged ("caza" = "casa"), while in Castile, their difference was enhanced
by moving the place of articulation of the /s/ forward to the edge of the upper teeth, thus "caza" = [kaθa], and "casa" = [kaşa].
More credible than a lisping king, don't you think?


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## Rocko!

Dymn said:


> Why is European (Castilian) Spanish said to be lispy *by English speakers*?


Regular English speakers, or English speakers educated in linguistic subjects?



merquiades said:


> I haven't heard English speakers call it lispy, but Latin Americans all the time.  *They spread* far and wide some stupid rumor about a king in Spain named Ferdinand who lisped


I agree that it was a stupid rumor, but the stupid rumor was spread far and wide* by an American* linguist:

"A style of pronunciation can also be imitated, usually for prestige reasons, without specific reference to a particular word. Modern Castillian Spanish /θ/ was formerly a spirant of the general type of ; the change to [θ] is said to have arisen because the king had a lisp, wich others found it advisable to imitate."

Charles Francis Hockett. (1958)._ A Course in Modern Linguistics_. p. 414. The Macmillan Company.


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## merquiades

Cenzontle said:


> I was taught a plausible hypothesis about the /θ/ phoneme in Peninsular Spanish.
> Old (=  medieval) Spanish is thought too have had a dental affricate phoneme that we might approximate as /ts/,
> spelled <ç>, as in "la caça", 'the hunt'.
> It also had (after the sibilants lost their voicing) the apicoalveolar /ş/ phoneme heard today in northern Spain, as in "la casa", 'the house'.
> (I put a cedilla on the /ş/ for lack of knowledge of what the correct diacritic would be.)
> The affricate lost its /t/ component, leaving /s/ and /ş/ to either merge or try to maintain contrast.
> In Andalusia, they merged ("caza" = "casa"), while in Castile, their difference was enhanced
> by moving the place of articulation of the /s/ forward to the edge of the upper teeth, thus "caza" = [kaθa], and "casa" = [kaşa].
> More credible than a lisping king, don't you think?


The only thing i would add is the third  phoneme, the "sh"-like sound in "caxa" later spelled "caja" was part of the equation and played a role. It moved backwards towards the current phoneme /x/ at the same time "caza" was moving forwards towards the interdental sound. The reason was the same, to gain distance from the apico-alveolar s sound in "casa".
Lola Pons Rodríguez from the University of Sevilla has an excellent video on YouTube on this subject. Seseo, ceceo, distinción y la letra Z.


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## berndf

Cenzontle said:


> I was taught a plausible hypothesis about the /θ/ phoneme in Peninsular Spanish.
> Old (=  medieval) Spanish is thought too have had a dental affricate phoneme that we might approximate as /ts/,
> spelled <ç>, as in "la caça", 'the hunt'.
> It also had (after the sibilants lost their voicing) the apicoalveolar /ş/ phoneme heard today in northern Spain, as in "la casa", 'the house'.
> (I put a cedilla on the /ş/ for lack of knowledge of what the correct diacritic would be.)
> The affricate lost its /t/ component, leaving /s/ and /ş/ to either merge or try to maintain contrast.
> In Andalusia, they merged ("caza" = "casa"), while in Castile, their difference was enhanced
> by moving the place of articulation of the /s/ forward to the edge of the upper teeth, thus "caza" = [kaθa], and "casa" = [kaşa].
> More credible than a lisping king, don't you think?


Yes, that is essentially what I have learned as well. De-affricate /ts/ merged with /s/ in Andalusian but not in other Castilian dialects and as colonial Spanish was strongly influenced by Andalusian, the merger became universal in Latin American Spanish.

As a result of the merger, the apical /s/ was replaced by a laminal /s/. There are examples of such mergers in other languages, e.g. Middle High German distinguished between a laminal _s_ as a result of de-affricate /ts/ and an inherited apical /s/ as it still exists in Dutch where the High German /ts/ phoneme didn't exist and no merger happened. In Modern German _aus_ and _Haus_ rhyme while the Middle High German etymons _ûჳ_ und _hûs_ did not.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> Yes, that is essentially what I have learned as well. De-affricate /ts/ merged with /s/ in Andalusian but not in other Castilian dialects and as colonial Spanish was strongly influenced by Andalusian, the merger became universal in Latin American Spanish.


 I'd just add Southwest Andalusian. Dialect from Granada, Málaga, Almería wasn't really taken. It was Seville, Cádiz and Canary Islander speech that spread and influenced. Some places in the Caribbean sound almost identical to the Canaries.

@berndf   But German didn't real lose the /ts/ afficate sound, did it?  It still exists in _zug, dazu, ziehen_.  In Spanish all "z" changed to /θ/ in Spain, and merged to laminal s in the Canaries, Latin America and old-timey Sevillian.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> But German didn't real lose the /ts/ afficate sound, did it?


Indeed, not all /ts/ underwent de-affricatization. But those that did merged with /s/ at a later stage. The merger correlated with the emergence of /ʃ/. It seems the 3-ways phonemic distinction apical /s/, laminal /s/ and /ʃ/ was difficult to maintain.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Dymn said:


> But maybe since it's found in words where English would have an /s/ (e.g. /θentɾo/)
> 
> What do you think?



I think that probably has a lot to do with it. Secondly, most native English-speakers live in North America and North Americans are mostly influenced by Latin American Spanish. And Latin Americans seem to have some hang-up about the "Castilian lisp", which probably adds to the preceding point.


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> The only thing i woukd add is the third  phoneme, the "sh"-like sound in "caxa" later spelled "caja" was part of the equation and played a role. It moved backwards towards the current phoneme /x/ at the same time "caza" was moving forwards towards the interdental sound. *The reason was* the same, to gain distance from the apico-alveolar s sound in "casa".



I agree but I can't completely see why Spanish went that far. Most other Western Romance languages did more or less the same, with the medieval c /ts/ into /s/. But most also retain the "sh" as "sh", even those in the Iberian Peninsula where the s is also apico-alveolar. Besides, southern Spanish didn't keep it either (even if it's rather a /h/ than a /x/), yet they don't have an apico-alveolar.


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## Dymn

merquiades said:


> There is also another bad rumor among Latin Americans that it was Catalan in origin, because of the pronunciation Barthelona. There was already a thread on this in the English-Spanish forum called the Catalan lisp if you can stomach it.


I'm sure the OP got confused with "Castilian"... 



Rocko! said:


> Regular English speakers, or English speakers educated in linguistic subjects?


The latter really, and online.



merquiades said:


> I haven't heard English speakers call it lispy, but Latin Americans all the time.


I guess those of them who think of European Spanish as lispy may have taken that idea from Latin Americans too.



merquiades said:


> Most English speakers don't know anything about the apico-alveolar s.


Certainly an incredibly tiny minority do, but maybe you would notice something's off with our /s/. I think the Portuguese mock a northern accent (in Northern Portugal they also have an apico-alveolar s) as though they were saying _x_'s (/ʃ/) instead of _s_'s. But probably it's no big deal. I've never noticed any difference at all.

Also language prejudices or prejudices for that matter don't have to make much sense I guess. In Spanish dubbings they mock a German accent by using trilled /r/ where it should be tap /ɾ/, despite only a minority of Germans nowadays pronounce /r/.


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## Rocko!

I don't believe in the idea that if Latin Americans say that Spaniards have a lisp, then Americans will say it too. 

What I believe is that all English speakers who are interested in this subject of ceceo will sooner or later find out that the term "to lisp" is used to define a phenomenon that in the Spanish language is called ceceo/cecear. Then, regardless of nationality or language, all people would use it.

I did a little research and *confirmed *that in all bilingual dictionaries of the following prestigious brands, the term "cecear" is always translated as "lisp": Webster's, Merriam-Webster's, Collins, Berlitz, Larousse, Longman, Cambridge, The American Heritage, Penguin Books (revised by Criado de Val, del Instituto Cervantes), Random House, BBC, Editorial Océano (Spaniard brand), Living Language, The University of Chicago, McGraw-Hill, Putnam's, and Appleton's.

The oldest dictionary I was able to find containing the translation _cecear=to lisp_ (lispe) dates back to *1591*, and I don't believe that any Latin American influenced the English author in those distant years (Richard Percyvall;  Bibliotheca Hispanica).


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## Cenzontle

If "lisp" seems like a derogatory term to you, replace it with "interdentalization".


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## merquiades

I'd say lisp is always a derogatory term. It refers to an individual in any language who cannot pronounce /s/. Someone who says correctly "Arthur is thirsty" does not have a lisp. If they say "Arsur is sirsty" they have a foreign accent.  Someone who ssys "Galisia",  "Valensia" and "Saragossa" in Spain similarly sounds foreign there.

Ceceo might be derogatory in Spanish but it also refers to the way prople speak on the Costa del Sol, their natural accent. That would be the only place in Spain you hear _zí_, _zeñorita_. I have hesrd a few Latin Americans aĺlege all Spaniards have ceceo.


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## Dymn

Rocko! said:


> What I believe is that all English speakers who are interested in this subject of ceceo will sooner or later find out that the term "to lisp" is used to define a phenomenon that in the Spanish language is called ceceo/cecear. Then, regardless of nationality or language, all people would use it.


But ceceo is pronouncing *both *_z_ and _s_ with a th or th-ish sound, which in Spain only happens in some areas in Andalusia. Those people I've read call "lisp" the standard Castilian distinction between /s/ and /θ/. I've read Latin Americans calling this _ceceo _as well.


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## merquiades

Dymn said:


> But ceceo is pronouncing *both *_z_ and _s_ with a th or th-ish sound, which in Spain only happens in some areas in Andalusia. Those people I've read call "lisp" the standard Castilian distinction between /s/ and /θ/. I've read Latin Americans calling this _ceceo _as well.


People who don't make the difference and don't even know to do so if they wanted.... only have _seseo_ in their life.  They also have spelling problems because of it,  s, z, and c are all the same to them.  When they hear the sound /θ/ from European speakers they mistake it for lisp. You know they hear /θinko/ and incorrectly assume that people in Spain must say  /θeiθ/  and /θiete/ too.
I noticed that French people learning Spanish have a hard time assimilating /θ/ because it doesn't exist in their language.  They'll say "nozotroz vamoz a empesar la lecsion" and things like that as if it were a decoration to put in once in a while.  And that's with the norm being taught to them


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## Penyafort

Yes, I've also noticed that about French people. And I always find it weird, because I don't see the linguistic reason behind it.

By the way, despite being in the North, Basques and Catalans also used to _sesear _when speaking Spanish not so long ago, as th- is also foreign to those languages. The fact that a Catalan these days can say th and the Spanish jota without any trouble proves that it has indeed become a native language of the speaker too.


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## Rocko!

The pronunciatión of TH is not ceceo


Dymn said:


> But ceceo is pronouncing *both *_z_ and _s_ with a th or th-ish sound, which in Spain only happens in some areas in Andalusia. Those people I've read call "lisp" the standard Castilian distinction between /s/ and /θ/. I've read Latin Americans calling this _ceceo _as well.


I’m a regular Latin American Spanish speaker and I don’t know what ceceo is. I would never say to an American that Spaniard people cecea. The term “to lisp” seems to be not more than a translation.


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## Cossue

Penyafort said:


> By the way, despite being in the North, Basques and Catalans also used to _sesear _when speaking Spanish not so long ag



Living in Western Galician I can tell you of many older Galician speakers that have a hard time using [θ] (they have to focus to use it) even though this pronunciation is the standard one in standard Galician. Check this interview of Jordi Évole:

El enfado del narco Marcial Dorado al ver cómo Núñez Feijóo reniega de su amistad: "Que no escape, que sea valiente"

"Está hablando, no con el coraçón, está hablando con el çerebro de político"


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## Penyafort

Cossue said:


> Living in Western Galician I can tell you of many older Galician speakers that have a hard time using [θ] (they have to focus to use it) even though this pronunciation is the standard one in standard Galician. Check this interview of Jordi Évole:
> 
> El enfado del narco Marcial Dorado al ver cómo Núñez Feijóo reniega de su amistad: "Que no escape, que sea valiente"
> 
> "Está hablando, no con el coraçón, está hablando con el çerebro de político"



That's cool and it answers a doubt I had about that regarding Galicians. It makes me wonder if [θ] was perhaps an early spread from a very central origin in the Peninsula.


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## merquiades

Cossue said:


> Living in Western Galician I can tell you of many older Galician speakers that have a hard time using [θ] (they have to focus to use it) even though this pronunciation is the standard one in standard Galician. Check this interview of Jordi Évole:
> 
> El enfado del narco Marcial Dorado al ver cómo Núñez Feijóo reniega de su amistad: "Que no escape, que sea valiente"
> 
> "Está hablando, no con el coraçón, está hablando con el çerebro de político"


C/Ç are pronounced /s/ in Portuguese.  How were they pronounced in old Galician?  /ts/ like in old Castilian?


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## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> C/Ç are pronounces /s/ in Portuguese.  How were they pronounced in old Galician?  /ts/ like in old Castilian?



Is there any Western Romance language in which c was not pronounced /ts/?

I can only think of Mozarabic.


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## merquiades

Penyafort said:


> Is there any Western Romance language in which c was not pronounced /ts/?
> 
> I can only think of Mozarabic.


I guess not....
So Galician followed an evolution of sibilants similar to northern and central Castilian /ts/ fronted to /θ/ , and Portuguese more like Andalusian /ts/ to /s/.


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## Cossue

Penyafort said:


> That's cool and it answers a doubt I had about that regarding Galicians. It makes me wonder if [θ] was perhaps an early spread from a very central origin in the Peninsula.


 
Yep. I think so. 



merquiades said:


> C/Ç are pronounces /s/ in Portuguese. How were they pronounced in old Galician? /ts/ like in old Castilian?



Yes. Galician-Portuguese c/ç usually represented that phoneme, but in Galician documents you see z/ç/s/ss confusion from the 14th century on, showing that the opposition of the several phonemes represented by them were collapsing. In 20th century Galician you could find a s/θ opposition in Eastern Galicia; the same in Central Galicia (which was, anyway, neutralized in s in the coda; as of 2021 this neutralization applies just to older speakers of these areas); no opposition or a pair of very close s in Western Galician (still alive and kicking even among younger speakers; the articulation of this/these phoneme(s) are diverse and could sound very divergent); and a conservative area with s/z/θ opposition in the Limia region of southern Galicia.


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## Cossue

merquiades said:


> So Galician followed an evolution of sibilants similar to northern and central Castilian /ts/ fronted to /θ/ , and Portuguese more like Andalusian /ts/ to /s/.



More or less. Western Galician also evolved mostly as /ts/ > /s/; Eastern Galician /ts/ > /θ/; Central Galician perhaps transitioned from the first to the second along a relatively large period.


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## merquiades

Cossue said:


> More or less. Western Galician also evolved mostly as /ts/ > /s/; Eastern Galician /ts/ > /θ/; Central Galician perhaps transitioned from the first to the second along a relatively large period.


But nowadays /θ/ has become frequent everywhere, right?  It's what everyone seems to say on tv.


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## Cossue

Just a curiosity: a 1859 ex-voto by a woman from Santiago de Compostela, Josefa Pedreira. It's written in Spanish, but heavily altered by the Galician of the person who wrote it:  note _vesina _(vecina), _santiajo _(Santiago), _moi _(muy), _aser _(hacer), _operasion _(operación), _y ce allo_ (y se halló), _sera _(cera)...


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## Cossue

merquiades said:


> But nowadays /θ/ has become frequent everywhere, right?  It's what everyone seems to say on tv.



Yes and no. I work at a job office here in Western Galicia, and when people is using their normal register they would use mostly /s/ (whaterver is pronounced in his town/village/hamlet) all the time. Then again, if using an upper register younger speakers or professionals would use /θ/. But blue collar workers would usually say /s/ all the time.


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## Swatters

Penyafort said:


> Is there any Western Romance language in which c was not pronounced /ts/?
> 
> I can only think of Mozarabic.



Potentially Picard, where c evolved into /ʃ/, making it possible that it was /tʃ/ as an affricate


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