# All Indo-Iranian Languages: fetish



## Alfaaz

*Background: 
*English Dictionary Definition: 


> *1. *An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.
> *2. *An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence: made a fetish of punctuality.
> *3. *Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.
> *4. *An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.



_*Context (dialogue from Urdu drama): *_"اور انکا ایک فیٹش ہے کہ وہ سب پر (کومینڈ) حکم کرنا چاہتی ہیں" 

Translations: Farsi (GT): این طلسم/ فیٹش است و همه آنها می خواهند به منظور ; Hindi (GT): और उनका एक fetish है कि वह सब पर आदेश करना चाहती हैं ; English Translation: and she has a fetish that she wants to command everyone / have command over everyone

*Question:* What words could be used in your language to translate "fetish"? It has two or three different meanings (fixation, object given great attention, object arousing sexual desire, magical object) which might require more than one word...


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## Alfaaz

Any ideas/views/suggestions?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Any ideas/views/suggestions?



I know there must be an equivalent or near equivalent word in Urdu but it has alluded me. If I can think of anything suitable, I shall return.


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## Faylasoof

Even in English the word '_fetish_' is used differently, sometimes even as a joke! But some Urdu equivalents might be:
فحش نِگاری
 ولوع مرضي 
لتलत - as in _lat _(لتलत) _lagnaa _= get habituated to a bad habit / a neagtive trait, to the point of fixation.
The first has a sexual connotation while the second could be (and its usage, I guess, would be rather rare anyway), but _lat_ (لتलत) _lagnaa _we can use more generally for any negative trait / habit. In fact, we use it a lot e.g.
اسے حکم چلانے کی لت لگ گئی ہے
_use Hukm chalaane kii lat lag ga'ii hai_
_He has become habituated to / fixated with the idea of stamping his authority.
He has developed a fetish for stamping his authority._

The second sentence is quite insulting by the implied meaning of fetish.


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## hindiurdu

Using #4, if I think of it as something one always has a hankering for, I might use the word "talab". I know this may not fit this exact situation. Colloquially: Unhe hameshaa apna huk(a)m chalaane ki talab rahti hai. BTW I think "talab" also works for sexual hankering.


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## UrduMedium

^ Isn't _haRak uThnaa _in the same category?


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## hindiurdu

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Isn't _haRak uThnaa _in the same category?



UrduMedium sahab, this word is new to me! ہڑک? Doesn't haRkaanaa mean "to hassle" (though I have only ever heard it as infrequently used slang)?


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## greatbear

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Isn't _haRak uThnaa _in the same category?



I say it as _huRak uThnaa_! I think it means rather "having a [sudden, temporary] craving for".


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## greatbear

hindiurdu said:


> UrduMedium sahab, this word is new to me! ہڑک? Doesn't haRkaanaa mean "to hassle" (though I have only ever heard it as infrequently used slang)?



Yeah, _haRkaanaa_ means "to hassle, to rebuke someone", but maybe you are familiar with the word _huRak_ instead?


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> I say it as _huRak uThnaa_! I think it means rather "having a [sudden, temporary] craving for".



Yes, that's the idea. I was suggesting it to have similar meaning  (hence ^ reference) to "_talab honaa_" (crave). And I do say and hear it as _haRak _not _huRak_.


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> I say it as _huRak uThnaa_! I think it means rather "having a [sudden, temporary] craving for".



I looked up my Feroz-ul-Lughaat Jaami3 dictionary for _huRak_

According to it_, huRak _is a masculine noun (haRak is fem.) and it means a kind of small Dhol (drum?).


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## greatbear

UrduMedium said:


> I looked up my Feroz-ul-Lughaat Jaami3 dictionary for _huRak_
> 
> According to it_, huRak _is a masculine noun (haRak is fem.) and it means a kind of small Dhol (drum?).



Well, I have never known this masculine _huRak_. My _huRak_ is also fem., meaning the same as your _haRak_.


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## Faylasoof

hindiurdu said:


> Using #4, if I think of it as something one always has a hankering for, I might use the word "talab". I know this may not fit this exact situation. Colloquially: Unhe hameshaa apna huk(a)m chalaane ki talab rahti hai. BTW I think "talab" also works for sexual hankering.


 _T__alab_ can be used very generally and has more nuanced meanings. Usually it wouldn't be considered as evocative has the other words above. As for sexual hankering that you mention, the word شَہْوَت _shahwat_ (pronounced _shaihwat_) might be more suitable.


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## Sheikh_14

Faylasoof said:


> Even in English the word '_fetish_' is used differently, sometimes even as a joke! But some Urdu equivalents might be:
> فحش نِگاری
> ولوع مرضي
> لتलत - as in _lat _(لتलत) _lagnaa _= get habituated to a bad habit / a neagtive trait, to the point of fixation.
> The first has a sexual connotation while the second could be (and its usage, I guess, would be rather rare anyway), but _lat_ (لتलत) _lagnaa _we can use more generally for any negative trait / habit. In fact, we use it a lot e.g.
> اسے حکم چلانے کی لت لگ گئی ہے
> _use Hukm chalaane kii lat lag ga'ii hai_
> _He has become habituated to / fixated with the idea of stamping his authority.
> He has developed a fetish for stamping his authority._
> 
> The second sentence is quite insulting by the implied meaning of fetish.


I'm at a loss as to how any of the terms above besides lat could be used for something as simple as a foot or hand fetish 😃. FoHsh-nigaarii sounds like the act of writing or painting erotic works. FoHsh-baazii or even FoHsh-daarii/giirii would have made more sense.


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## Sheikh_14

In fact all dictionary entries define FoHsh-nigaar as I had suspected to mean a pornographer/porn-merchant.
Lat is a fantastic term but it alone would suggest an addiction. How about the following:

Latii-lagaa'o/laagii/laag =fetish I.e. an affection reminiscent to an addiction.

Anokhii/anhonii/naa-ma'quul/naa-jaa'iz/a'jiib o ghariib/Zaa'id- lat. Even lagaa'o can be used with the above adjectives to suggest an inordinate fascination or love.

How about zaa'id-uns (excessive affection) for fetish and zaa'id-unsiiyat for fetishism? Zaa'id-unsii for a fetishist and zaa'id-unsan for a female fetishist?

Biimaarii is also used in this sense I.e. an obsessive fixation with something.

I have no idea what wuluu' E marzii means, thence cannot comment on that.


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## Happu

Alfaaz said:


> Translations: Farsi (GT): این طلسم/ فیٹش است و همه آنها می خواهند به منظور ; Hindi (GT): और उनका एक fetish है कि वह सब पर आदेश करना चाहती हैं ; English Translation: and she has a fetish that she wants to command everyone / have command over everyone


There are various aspects to the word 'fetish', so I don't think you'll find a one-word-solution in Hindi or Urdu to cover them all.

In the above Hindi sentence, what about being linguistically creative and saying _zid-janUn_? It would express a certain unhealthy obsession and obstinacy.

But shouldn't it be और *उनकी *एक fetish ...? Wouldn't 'fetish' be regarded as feminine?


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## Alfaaz

Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> I have no idea what wuluu' E marzii means, thence cannot comment on that.


Hans Wehr (Arabic-English):


> ولوع walū‘ greed, craving, eager desire; love





			
				Happu said:
			
		

> what about being linguistically creative and saying _zid-janUn_?
> 
> 
> Wouldn't 'fetish' be regarded as feminine?


Welcome to the forum! _junuun _or خبط - _xabt _could indeed be used in certain contexts.

Some English words might be used as both masculine or feminine depending on the speaker. It was used as masculine in the quoted Urdu TV drama dialogue, but could perhaps be used as feminine by other speakers. Both Urdu words _junuun _and _xabt _are masculine, so that might have influenced the gender assignment to English _fetish_...!?


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## Happu

Alfaaz said:


> Hans Wehr (Arabic-English):
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum! _junuun _or خبط - _xabt _could indeed be used in certain contexts.
> 
> Some English words might be used as both masculine or feminine depending on the speaker. It was used as masculine in the quoted Urdu TV drama dialogue, but could perhaps be used as feminine by other speakers. Both Urdu words _junuun _and _xabt _are masculine, so that might have influenced the gender assignment to English _fetish_...!?



Thank you!

Yes, I am aware that usage may differ from person to person, and I have even seen Urdu and Hindi speakers assign a different gender to the same (English) noun. As for Hindi, I would say that virtually all such nouns are treated as feminine. I can't recall any exception off-hand. There are some nouns which _appear _to be adopted from English but are in fact from Portuguese (as I have mentioned in another thread); for example, _aspatal, _which in India was first picked up from Portuguese _espital _and in Hindi is treated as masculine.

And of course we know that 'fetish' is not a 'real English word but also from Portuguese but later adopted from its French variant.


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## aevynn

Happu said:


> As for Hindi, I would say that virtually all such nouns are treated as feminine. I can't recall any exception off-hand.


Is the assertion being made here that all nouns loaned from English are treated as feminine by Hindi speakers...? If so, I don't think that's true!  There are just so many counterexamples. There may be discrepancies between idiolects, but I personally would say things like the following:

meraa barthDe/barDe (my birthday), aapkaa baig (your bag), meraa laa'isens (my license), hamaaraa baik-yaarD (our backyard), aapkaa Daugii (your "doggie"/dog), meraa kampyuuTar (my computer), mere heDfonz (my headphones), hare rang kaa sofaa (a green sofa), eyar inDiyaa kaa plen (an Air India plane), unkaa plain (their plan), unkaa baathruum (their bathroom), ...

Other speakers may disagree on some of the above gender assignments, but I'm sure everyone will be able to come up with a long list of English nouns they treat as masculine. 

Or have I misunderstood your assertion? 

[For what it's worth, for loaning "fetish" in particular, neither gender assignment sounds strange to me personally, and just searching Google in Devanagari does turn up hits for both "~ का फेटिश" and "~ की फेटिश." There aren't many hits for either of these (it's just not a common loan). Some of the gender assignments are because of a noun following फेटिश (eg, फेटिश डॉल), but even after you throw those out, you still see both gender assignments occurring for फेटिश.]


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## Happu

aevynn said:


> Is the assertion being made here that all nouns loaned from English are treated as feminine by Hindi speakers...? If so, I don't think that's true!  There are just so many counterexamples. There may be discrepancies between idiolects, but I personally would say things like the following:
> 
> meraa barthDe/barDe (my birthday), aapkaa baig (your bag), meraa laa'isens (my license), hamaaraa baik-yaarD (our backyard), aapkaa Daugii (your "doggie"/dog), meraa kampyuuTar (my computer), mere heDfonz (my headphones), hare rang kaa sofaa (a green sofa), eyar inDiyaa kaa plen (an Air India plane), unkaa plain (their plan), unkaa baathruum (their bathroom), ...
> 
> Other speakers may disagree on some of the above gender assignments, but I'm sure everyone will be able to come up with a long list of English nouns they treat as masculine.
> 
> Or have I misunderstood your assertion?
> 
> [For what it's worth, for loaning "fetish" in particular, neither gender assignment sounds strange to me personally, and just searching Google in Devanagari does turn up hits for both "~ का फेटिश" and "~ की फेटिश." There aren't many hits for either of these (it's just not a common loan). Some of the gender assignments are because of a noun following फेटिश (eg, फेटिश डॉल), but even after you throw those out, you still see both gender assignments occurring for फेटिश.]



No, not all English nouns but the vast majority. At least that's what we were taught in Hindi classes in uni. Many of the examples you quote as masculine sound odd to me. Words like_ bag, licence _and_ sofa _sound feminine to my ears. As you say, different people may assign a different gender to them.    

In the case of _doggie _both genders would naturally be possible, as in _DakTar_ (doctor)_,_ depending if it's a he or a she.

Anyhow I was rather thinking of nouns which can be found in 'reliable' *, academic dictionaries. I am quite convinced that the vast majority of those will be feminine. The nouns you quote are mostly new linguistic imports, and if they ever make it into dictionaries, someone will have to fix the issue for us.

_* I put 'reliable' in quotes, as I have spotted mistakes in a very well-known, well-regarded Hindi-English dictionary and reported them to the publisher. _


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## aevynn

Happu said:


> Anyhow I was rather thinking of nouns which can be found in 'reliable' *, academic dictionaries. I am quite convinced that the vast majority of those will be feminine. The nouns you quote are mostly new linguistic imports...


Hmm... I remain unconvinced about "vast majority." The following are all masculine loans that I think are from English, are less "new" than the ones from my previous post, and are probably listed as masculine in "'reliable' academic dictionaries" --- बम, टमाटर, पलस्तर, कनस्तर, बैंक, वोट, रिक्शा, बिल, नोट, गिलास, कोर्ट, जेल, स्टेशन, इंजन, कालेज, ... It really isn't even remotely difficult to come up with these examples. Can you provide a reference that justifies your conviction using an actual statistical analysis of some dictionary?


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## Alfaaz

Relevant thread: Urdu: Gender of computer terms


			
				Happu said:
			
		

> As for Hindi, I would say that virtually all such nouns are treated as feminine. I can't recall any exception off-hand.
> ...
> Words like_ bag, licence _and_ sofa _sound feminine to my ears. As you say, different people may assign a different gender to them.
> ...
> Anyhow I was rather thinking of nouns which can be found in 'reliable' *, academic dictionaries. I am quite convinced that the vast majority of those will be feminine. The nouns you quote are mostly new linguistic imports, and if they ever make it into dictionaries, someone will have to fix the issue for us.


As pointed out by aevynn, this assertion is not quite accurate. There is a large number of English words listed in Urdu dictionaries that are treated as masculine and it can be noticed that the gender assignment is fairly _standardized _if modern speech is observed. For example (using _license _discussed above), all of the following are listed as masculine on this page of Feroz-ul-Lughat: _license_, _lighthouse_, _lighter_, _lava_, _lawn_, _launch_, and even _lollypop_. (In my experience, most current speakers would treat _lollipop _and _candy _as _feminine_.) A few more examples: _letter_, _letterbox_, _mark_, _marble_, _mart_, _masterpiece_, _malt_, _school_, _member_, _minute_, _tableau_, _torpedo_, _acre_, _act_, _award_, _area_, _agenda_, _editorial_, _issue_, _apron_, _staff_, _stock_, _stadium_, _stove_, _station_, _estimate_, _style_, etc. etc.


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## Happu

aevynn said:


> Hmm... I remain unconvinced about "vast majority." The following are all masculine loans that I think are from English, are less "new" than the ones from my previous post, and are probably listed as masculine in "'reliable' academic dictionaries" --- बम, टमाटर, पलस्तर, कनस्तर, बैंक, वोट, रिक्शा, बिल, नोट, गिलास, कोर्ट, जेल, स्टेशन, इंजन, कालेज, ... It really isn't even remotely difficult to come up with these examples. Can you provide a reference that justifies your conviction using an actual statistical analysis of some dictionary?


I can't recall any statistics but will look into it ...

रिक्शा, though, is originally from Japanese, even if the British mostly likely 'imported' it.


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## aevynn

Happu said:


> रिक्शा, though, is originally from Japanese, even if the British mostly likely 'imported' it.


English _rickshaw_ is originally from Japanese 人力車 [which Japanese in turn loaned from Middle Chinese], but Hindi-Urdu didn't loan _rikshaa_ directly from Japanese. It loaned from English. Many of the other words we've listed are also originally from other languages. English _vote_ is ultimately from Latin _vovere_, but Urdu-Hindi didn't loan _voT_ from Latin. English _bomb_ is ultimately from Ancient Greek βόμβος, but Hindi-Urdu didn't loan _bam_ from Ancient Greek. English _tomato_ is ultimately from Nahuatl _tomatl_, but Urdu-Hindi didn't loan _TamaaTar_ from Nahuatl.


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## Happu

True. Indians in Germany are often surprised when the hear 'pineapple' is called _Ananas_ in German - अरे, यह तो हमारा शब्द है!
Of course अनानास is of South American origin and was carried across by the Portuguese.

As my Hindi university days are a few decades in the past, the professor's statement may in fact have been 'The majority of _foreign_ nouns in Hindi are feminine.' This would include the vast array of Arabic and Persian words and possibly make more sense

But I'll still try to find some info on the m/f ratio of English-derived words.


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## Happu

In his wonderfully elaborate book *प्रयोग और प्रयोग* (_Handbook of Modern Hindi Usage_), Prof. V.R. Jagannathan devotes one and a half pages to the gender formation of English loan words. There are many good pointers, but even the author is left inconclusive in some cases. I try to summarize:

* The gender is determined by the form/semblance (रुप) and meaning (अर्थ) of the word.
* English nouns ending in -ई are feminine (as most Hindi ones are). He doesn't explicitly mention it, but I guess those ending on -आ would be masculine (there are few in English anyway).
* Also feminine are those ending in -इंग (_engineering, catering_, even _spring_).
* Often the gender is determined by its Hindi equivalent - _book_ (kitAb, pustak), _botal_ (shishI), _line_ (rekhA), _watch_ (ghaRI) are feminine (he quotes more examples). _Machine_ (kal = device) is also feminine (ignoring masculine yantra; but yantra is quoted as the equivalent of_ motor/moTar_, which thus is also masculine)_._
* In the case of modern means of transportation, it goes both ways: _truck, plane, ship, rocket_, all masculine; _bus, rail, cycle, _feminine_._
* Modern technical appliances are usually feminine:_ radio, T.V., cooker_ etc. I guess your headphones would also fall into this category.
* Jagganathan points out the ambiguity in many cases: the word _letter_ has both, a masculine and a feminine equivalent in Hindi (patr / ciTTHI), so have _licence_ (farmAn / anumati), _shirt _(kurtA / kamIz) et al.

So I guess there are some useful hints here; still, much is open to debate.


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## Alfaaz

Happu said:
			
		

> As my Hindi university days are a few decades in the past, the professor's statement may in fact have been 'The majority of _foreign_ nouns in Hindi are feminine.' This would include the vast array of Arabic and Persian words and possibly make more sense


This suggestion might not be completely accurate either. A large number of nouns in Urdu from Arabic and Persian are masculine. 

Relevant thread: Urdu: gender assignment to words of Persian origin


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## aevynn

Happu said:


> Indians in Germany are often surprised when the hear 'pineapple' is called _Ananas_ in German - अरे, यह तो हमारा शब्द है!
> Of course अनानास is of South American origin and was carried across by the Portuguese.


Back in high school, my mom was talking to a friend of mine who was taking French as a foreign language, and it came up that the French word for pineapple was _ananas_. My mom reacted with almost exactly that same sentence 



Happu said:


> But I'll still try to find some info on the m/f ratio of English-derived words.


I hope you do manage to find something. It would be interesting to know what the ratio is!



Happu said:


> I guess those ending on -आ would be masculine (there are few in English anyway).


I might add that the couple that are coming to mind to me right now are _kaimraa_ (camera) and _sofaa_ (sofa), and for me these are both robustly masculine in the sense that I would even decline them --- as in, _kaimre kaa lenz_, _sofe par sonaa_, etc.



Happu said:


> Modern technical appliances are usually feminine:_ radio, T.V., cooker_ etc. I guess your headphones would also fall into this category.


My family uses all three of these as masculine nouns (_reDiyo chal rahaa thaa_, _hamne nayaa Tiivii xariidaa hai_, _maiNne preshar-kukar band kiyaa_, etc). I have a pretty strong preference for masculine gender on _heDfonz_ also. Googling a bit suggests that these gender assignments are pretty common outside of my family too.



Happu said:


> Often the gender is determined by its Hindi equivalent


I am a little skeptical of this heuristic. There are the concerns that you've cited (multiple possible equivalents with inconsistent genders), but also, speaking personally as someone who uses a lot of English loans when speaking in Hindi-Urdu... I constantly loan English words when I just don't know a "proper" translation --- or if I know it, it's not the type of word that's in the front of my mind. I would assign the word _skaularship_ feminine gender (_fraans jaane kii skaularship_, etc) well before the word _waziifaa/waziifah_ would even come to my mind (which anyway is masculine). I have no idea if there's even a _shuddh_/_xaaliS_ translation of English _stadium_, but I'd have no hesitations about assigning the loanword _sTeDiyam_ masculine gender. Anyway, this is another point where I'd really like to see some well-collected and well-analyzed data to corroborate this heuristic. If I were forced to guess, it seems like there are enough exceptions around that I doubt this heuristic would pass muster if someone were to compute a p-value.


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## Alfaaz

aevynn said:
			
		

> I have no idea if there's even a _shuddh_/_xaaliS_ translation of English _stadium_, but I'd have no hesitations about assigning the loanword _sTeDiyam_ masculine gender.





> مُدَرَّج - اسم مذکر؛ صفت
> ...
> ۲۔ وہ بیضوی یا مدور عمارت جس میں چاروں طرف ایک کے پیچھے ایک اور ایک دوسرے سے بلند نشستیں ہوتی ہیں ، اسٹیڈیم​


سٹیڈیم - _stadium _is also masculine, as you have indicated.


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## Happu

aevynn said:


> Back in high school, my mom was talking to a friend of mine who was taking French as a foreign language, and it came up that the French word for pineapple was _ananas_. My mom reacted with almost exactly that same sentence
> 
> 
> I hope you do manage to find something. It would be interesting to know what the ratio is!
> 
> 
> I might add that the couple that are coming to mind to me right now are _kaimraa_ (camera) and _sofaa_ (sofa), and for me these are both robustly masculine in the sense that I would even decline them --- as in, _kaimre kaa lenz_, _sofe par sonaa_, etc.
> 
> 
> My family uses all three of these as masculine nouns (_reDiyo chal rahaa thaa_, _hamne nayaa Tiivii xariidaa hai_, _maiNne preshar-kukar band kiyaa_, etc). I have a pretty strong preference for masculine gender on _heDfonz_ also. Googling a bit suggests that these gender assignments are pretty common outside of my family too.
> 
> 
> I am a little skeptical of this heuristic. There are the concerns that you've cited (multiple possible equivalents with inconsistent genders), but also, speaking personally as someone who uses a lot of English loans when speaking in Hindi-Urdu... I constantly loan English words when I just don't know a "proper" translation --- or if I know it, it's not the type of word that's in the front of my mind. I would assign the word _skaularship_ feminine gender (_fraans jaane kii skaularship_, etc) well before the word _waziifaa/waziifah_ would even come to my mind (which anyway is masculine). I have no idea if there's even a _shuddh_/_xaaliS_ translation of English _stadium_, but I'd have no hesitations about assigning the loanword _sTeDiyam_ masculine gender. Anyway, this is another point where I'd really like to see some well-collected and well-analyzed data to corroborate this heuristic. If I were forced to guess, it seems like there are enough exceptions around that I doubt this heuristic would pass muster if someone were to compute a p-value.



Yes, I'm still trying to find the ratio, which doesn't seem easy.

More English-derived nouns ending on -आ: _DrAmA, harniyA_ (hernia), _milishiyA_ (militia), _vIsA_ (visa), all masculine. 

As for _sTeDiyam, _I would also use it as masculine, just going by 'feel'. At least two Hindi options are available, both masculine: _maidAn_ and kriRAngan (क्रीड़ांगन). Both aren't perfect; the former isn't 100% equivalent, and the latter is obscure and would never be heard in conversation.

I would assume gender assignment would also differ quite a bit from region to region. A Maharashtrian in Mumbai, speaking Bambaiya Hindi, would possibly just use the masculine form throughout.


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