# Υiddish: Vot a mensch/ vos far a mentch



## Cris2

Hi everyone~

There's a children's book _Brave Irene_, in which
Mrs. Bobbin is a dressmaker who needs to bring a dress to the palace but falls ill,
so her daughter Irene offers to bring the dress herself.

A Jewish author introduced the book this way:

Vot a mensch, this Irene! She put on her fleece-lined boots, her red hat and muffler,
her heavy coat and her mittens. She kissed her mother's hot forehead six times, 
then once again, made sure she was tucked in snugly, and slipped out with the big box,
shutting the door firmly behind her. The happy ending doesn't kick in until Irene
has suffered real adversity, including despair and a brush with death.

Can anyone explain the phrase "Vot a mensch"?
I've been searching it but can't find a good answer...


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## LilianaB

It is Yiddish, I think, although I do not know if it is correct Yiddish. I just understand what it means. Vot would be for what. What a mensch. What a hero, in   other words. What a smart girl. Mensch is usually used in reference to a man, but maybe they use it in reference to a woman and girl as well. I do not know, but this is what it means.


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## L'irlandais

Cris2 said:


> ...Can anyone explain the phrase "Vot a mensch"?...


In the context of "Brave Irene" by William Steig (New York : 1986) :
_Mrs. Bobbin, a dressmaker, has made a beautiful dress for the duchess to wear to the ball.  When Mrs. Bobbin falls ill, her small daughter Irene, offers to bring the dress to the palace herself.  Mother protests because of the snowstorm brewing outside._  Source : The blessing of a skinned knee by Wendy Mogel (New York : 2001)


In answer to LilianaB, Mensch (person) can refer to a man, woman or child.


> Mensch (מענטש) a Yiddish word that means "a person of integrity." A mensch is someone who is responsible, has a sense of right and wrong and is the sort of person other people look up to. In English the word has come to mean "a good guy." Menschlichkeit (מענטשלעכקייט) is a related Yiddish word used to describe the collective qualities that make someone a mensch.  *Source*


Hope this is of help to you Cris2


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## Cris2

Many thanks to Liliana and L'irlandais,
I think that your replies helped me to understand the expression pretty well!


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## berndf

As Standard German _Mensch_, Yiddish _מענטש_ mean simple _human being_. It is also the name of the species _homo sapiens_.

In some German dialects, _Mensch_ means _female human_ (_woman_ or _girl_, depending on context) often used to particularly stress female qualities of a person. Though I am not familiar with the semantic differentiation in Yiddish, it seems most likely to me that _Mensch=female_ is meant because this sentence would represent a very typical used of this dialectal meaning of _Mensch_ in German and the split meaning of _Mensch=human_ (grammatical gender: masculine) and _Mensch=female_ (grammatical gender: neuter) existed already in Middle High German, before German and Yiddish split.

In Yiddish there is also a gender difference: There is _דער מענטש_(masculine) and _דאס מענטש_ (neuter). I am not 100% sure the difference corresponds to that in German but I strongly suspect it does. In the given fragment (_a mensch_), it cannot be determined if the gender is masculine or neuter.


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## jazyk

Mensch being a girl reminds me of Dutch de mens (the person, common noun, or masculine if you really insist) vs. het mens (the woman, neuter noun).


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## berndf

jazyk said:


> Mensch being a girl reminds me of Dutch de mens (the person, common noun, or masculine if you really insist) vs. het mens (the woman, neuter noun).


Yes, the same thing. And Dutch and German split even earlier that German and Yiddish.


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## sound shift

For "what", German had "wat" in the north and "was" further south. Dutch had (and has) "wat" for "what". I don't know if Yiddish had a similar divide; I don't know if it is possible to trace this "vot" to northern Germany or the Netherlands.


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## berndf

sound shift said:


> For "what", German had "wat" in the north and "was" further south. Dutch had (and has) "wat" for "what". I don't know if Yiddish had a similar divide; I don't know if it is possible to trace this "vot" to northern Germany or the Netherlands.


Yiddish originated from High and not from Low German, hence it has "was" and not "wat". I understand "vot a mensch" to be an imitation of a Yiddish speaker mixing English and Yiddish.


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## duvija

berndf said:


> Yiddish originated from High and not from Low German, hence it has "was" and not "wat". I understand "vot a mensch" to be an imitation of a Yiddish speaker mixing English and Yiddish.




I totally agree. In Yiddish it would have been 'vos far a mentch', but here it's just the Eng. pronounced as some kind of Yiddish. 
(And as usual, problem with perception vs production. I don't know if Yiddish native speakers perceive "what" as [uot/wot] or it just comes out with an [o] sound.)


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## berndf

duvija said:


> (And as usual, problem with perception vs production. I don't know if Yiddish native speakers perceive "what" as [uot/wot] or it just comes out with an [o] sound.)


I think it is more perception. Speakers of virtually all German dialects find the separation of /w/ and /v/ difficult, not the production. Most of them say either "water" and "wisitor" or they say "vater" and "visitor" but very few are able to distinguish "water" and "visitor".


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## duvija

berndf said:


> I think it is more perception. Speakers of virtually all German dialects find the separation of /w/ and /v/ difficult, not the production. Most of them say either "water" and "wisitor" or they say "vater" and "visitor" but very few are able to distinguish "water" and "visitor".




Is there a paper published on this? How do we know they are able or unable to distinguish w/v? A spoken answer isn't enough. I have been working on perception and production of Spanish by Yiddish native speakers, and couldn't go beyond that test. (You probably know that Yiddish speakers pronounce Spanish 'ue' as 'oi'...)


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## berndf

duvija said:


> Is there a paper published on this? How do we know they are able or unable to distinguish w/v? A spoken answer isn't enough. I have been working on perception and production of Spanish by Yiddish native speakers, and couldn't go beyond that test. (You probably know that Yiddish speakers pronounce Spanish 'ue' as 'oi'...)


I can only offer you my intuition as a native speaker of a closely related language. Concerning the perception and realisation of English /w/ and /v/, I never noticed serious differences between German and Yiddish speakers and therefore think they share the same intuition.

Romance /w/s are different. Not German would e.g. pronounce /w/ in Italian _uomo_ or French _oui_ like /v/. And I don't think this is only due to spelling. English /w/ and Romance /w/ are not the same. English /w/ is much more clearly a consonant.

I never heard a Yiddish speaker speak Spanish. I have very little contact with Spanish. Do you have sound samples of what you 'ue' pronounced like 'oi'? What does this 'oi' stand for? [ɔʏ]~[ɔɪ] like in _toyre_ (_Thora_)?


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## duvija

berndf said:


> I can only offer you my intuition as a native speaker of a closely related language. Concerning the perception and realisation of English /w/ and /v/, I never noticed serious differences between German and Yiddish speakers and therefore think they share the same intuition.
> 
> Romance /w/s are different. Not German would e.g. pronounce /w/ in Italian _uomo_ or French _oui_ like /v/. And I don't think this is only due to spelling. English /w/ and Romance /w/ are not the same. English /w/ is much more clearly a consonant.
> 
> I never heard a Yiddish speaker speak Spanish. I have very little contact with Spanish. Do you have sound samples of what you 'ue' pronounced like 'oi'? What does this 'oi' stand for? [ɔʏ]~[ɔɪ] like in _toyre_ (_Thora_)?




Yes, 'oy' as in 'oy, vey' (Woe is me), which is the diphthong in 'toyre'.
Boyno, goivos, joyves (for 'bueno, huevos, jueves). I'll try to find a relevant youtube.


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## Forero

I agree with LilianaB. _Mentsh_ is one of those Yiddish words that has made its way into English because of its "untranslatability".  It means something like "hero" or "smart girl/boy/man/woman", not just a human, but a humane human, not just a person, but a personable person, the essence of humanity/personhood.

And I agree with Duvija that _vot_ would be "vos far" in pure Yiddish.  This is English Yiddish.

It does make sense that a Yiddish speaker would hear Spanish _ue_ as _oy_.  It is interesting that the opposite happened in French (i.e. [ei >] oi > ue [> ua]).

Since Yiddish has _oy_ where German has _au_ or _o_, would a Yiddish speaker confuse _moro_ with _muero_, etc.?


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## duvija

Forero said:


> I agree with LilianaB. _Mentsh_ is one of those Yiddish words that has made its way into English because of its "untranslatability". It means something like "hero" or "smart girl/boy/man/woman", not just a human, but a humane human, not just a person, but a personable person, the essence of humanity/personhood.
> 
> And I agree with Duvija that _vot_ would be "vos far" in pure Yiddish. This is English Yiddish.
> 
> It does make sense that a Yiddish speaker would hear Spanish _ue_ as _oy_. It is interesting that the opposite happened in French (i.e. [ei >] oi > ue [> ua]).
> 
> Since Yiddish has _oy_ where German has _au_ or _o_, would a Yiddish speaker confuse _moro_ with _muero_, etc.?



Muero would be [moyro], with no doubts. (The velars create a problem. The labials, don't).
Why do you say that 'it makes sense ... hear a 'ue' like 'oy'? I worked on this for about 2 years, till I found a decent reason (similarity in the acoustics of those diphthongs). What's your take on this? I'm really interested in that. (I extended my work to diphth. in other languages).


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## berndf

Forero said:


> I agree with LilianaB. _Mentsh_ is one of those Yiddish words that has made its way into English because of its "untranslatability".  It means something like "hero" or "smart girl/boy/man/woman", not just a human, but a humane human, not just a person, but a personable person, the essence of humanity/personhood.


Can you substantiate that? I am far from an expert in Yiddish and I might be missing information, but I couldn't find this here, here, here (search for "human being") or anywhere else. Sources like the one given by l'irlandais are about usage by Jews in American English, not in Yiddish itself. Of course you have derived words like מענטשלעך and מענטשלעכקייט. But inferring from the mere existence of these words that מענטש itself means more than just _human being_ would be the same as inferring from the very existence of the word _humane _in English, which is obviously derived from _human,_ that a _human being_ is necessarily _humane_.


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## duvija

berndf said:


> Can you substantiate that? I am far from an expert in Yiddish and I might be missing information, but I couldn't find this here, here, here (search for "human being") or anywhere else. Sources like the one given by l'irlandais are about usage by Jews in American English, not in Yiddish itself. Of course you have derived words like מענטשלעך and מענטשלעכקייט. But inferring from the mere existence of these words that מענטש itself means more than just _human being_ would be the same as inferring from the very existence of the word _humane _in English, which is obviously derived from _human,_ that a _human being_ is necessarily _humane_.



The meaning of  'mentch' as a good, decent, helpful human being, is NOT from English, but straight from Yiddish. 
At home (my family: Jewish Spanish speakers in Uruguay, with absolutely no notion of English) that was the meaning of that word. Of course, you could always use it literally (don't go to the bathroom now. A mentch is using it) - but it would sound really funny.


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## berndf

duvija said:


> The meaning of  'mentch' as a good, decent, helpful human being, is NOT from English, but straight from Yiddish.
> At home (my family: Jewish Spanish speakers in Uruguay, with absolutely no notion of English) that was the meaning of that word. Of course, you could always use it literally (don't go to the bathroom now. A mentch is using it) - but it would sound really funny.


Thank you for the the native speaker's testimony. May I ask where your family came from, i.e. which variety of Yiddish your family originally spoke? Finding attestations like here where מענטש means _servant _then suggest considerable usage differences between varieties of Yiddish.


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## duvija

berndf said:


> Thank you for the the native speaker's testimony. May I ask where your family came from, i.e. which variety of Yiddish your family originally spoke? Finding attestations like here where מענטש means _servant _then suggest considerable usage differences between varieties of Yiddish.



Shtetl: Brezne - Used to be the border between Russia and Poland (they told me it belonged to each of them, for about a month at a time, till the other took over), but now that area is in the Ukraine.

Languages spoken: at home, Yiddish, of the Polish persuassion. Plus Hebrew because my grandfather was the Melamed of the town. Then, by order of knowledge, first Polish, then Russian, then Ukranian. They were totally literate in Polish, and used less of the others.

Went to Uruguay in the 20's, and at home they spoke almost only Yiddish. I hit the street at the prime age of 1 1/2, and from then on, I spoke mostly Spanish. But ... I had to go to Yiddish school (after a full day of Public School in Montevideo) for ages. I was also in the Jewish theater for about 30 years, and also the choir (oy vey), Summer camps, gym, etc. And of course, political fights.

As for Harkavi, I thrashed it years ago. Not only they don't show '4 letter words', but you won't find even 'urine'. What he's saying (even if so strangely spelled - he uses 'mensh' instead of 'mentsh') is 'help', but not exactly 'servant'. More like an employee. And he's skipping the whole 'good guy' meaning. I'll check farther, but Harkavi gives me the creeps. 
Weinreich also has both meanings, and the same in a Yiddish/Spanish dictionary a guy wrote in Mexico (a hard to find book). 
I still remember one of my aunts saying (in Yiddish) 'I have only one daughter, ober a mentch'. Clearly, the gender of the word was irrelevant.


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## berndf

Thank you very, very much for the comprehensive information, Duvija.



duvija said:


> Languages spoken: at home, Yiddish, of the Polish persuassion.


Just to check, if I got that right: You'd say _clever=klig_ not _klug _(separation from Lithuanian) and _Shabbath=Shabes_ not _Shobes _(separation from Ukranian). Right?


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## duvija

berndf said:


> Thank you very, very much for the comprehensive information, Duvija.
> 
> Just to check, if I got that right: You'd say _clever=klig_ not _klug _(separation from Lithuanian) and _Shabbath=Shabes_ not _Shobes _(separation from Ukranian). Right?




Klig and shabes. I found a problem, though (it surprised me to no end). All my friends were children of Jewish parents who went to Uruguay. They came from the most different language areas in the Yiddish world. All dialects, and even more. And then what happened? until I started studying lingustics, I hadn't realized they all used different vowels, and even the consonantal s/sh distinction. 

I really didn't know. They all spoke whatever, and - I assume - we got 'blind/deaf' towards the sounds that we didn't hear at home. It was just plain Yiddish for me (and for everybody else of my age, born and reared in Uruguay, away from the shtetl).
I still find unbelievable we didn't even notice the differences. 

On top of this, at school, they tried to use 'Standard Yiddish', you know, the one with the vowels from one area and the consonant from the other. Example: "punkt kapoyer". Originally it should be either 'pinkt kapoyer' or 'punkt kapeyer'. Well, we also got the mix. No wonder we didn't pay attention to 'sounds' but to semantic area, I guess...
All of this is fascinating to me, considering I do Phonology/Phonetics.


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## LilianaB

Hello. Is Yiddish taught in schools? I always had, the wrong idea probably, that they conducted classes in Hebrew at local Yehivas in New York, for example. I though Yiddish was just a language mostly spoken at home. Another thing, do you really think those sounds differed that much if they did not seem that strange to you, or they were just transcribed differently by various linguists?


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## duvija

LilianaB said:


> Hello. Is Yiddish taught in schools? I always had, the wrong idea probably, that they conducted classes in Hebrew at local Yehivas in New York, for example. I though Yiddish was just a language mostly spoken at home. Another thing, do you really think those sounds differed that much if they did not seem that strange to you, or they were just transcribed differently by various linguists?




Yiddish is taught in schools, and now there is some kind of revival, even in Israel. Israel managed to kill Yiddish as much as possible, under various reasons (to avoid the language of the Poor Jew who went to the gas chambers/to allow Sefardic Jews not to be at a disadvantage when going to Israel/to avoid the leftist ideology coming from Europe. As you can see, what's behind it, is really politically complicated). 

In countries where Jews emigrated to, there were Yiddish schools for as long as the original inmigrants were alive. Now, with that generation dead, they are pretty scarce. It's still studied, but more like a literary language than a natural one. (Natural language: what kids use to talk amongst themselves. So, maybe, Orthodox Jews in New York).

Dialects in Yiddish are real. Linguists don't transcribe what they don't hear (one would assume). I transcribed quite a bit for my research, and did a lot of work -with spectrograms - on the reasons for misspronouncing other languages - mostly diphthongs. It may sound silly but it takes more work than what anybody can think of. There are many enormous books with isoglosses for all areas. The last one is only about 15 years old. Many people keep on working on it.

It is a 'full' language, meaning it has all the characteristics of any lang. in the world. And yes, there is a ton of literature written in Yiddish. Lots of stuff on the web, if you want to find them.

I hope some of this is new, and helpful. 
Remember that Yeshivas are religious and therefore tied to Hebrew, and Yiddish is a non-religious language (with all the bagagge you can imagine).


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## LilianaB

Thank you, Duvija. I think Isaak Singer wrote in Yiddish. Yes, I think I have heard about some literature in Yiddish.


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## Alphabetka

"Vot a mensch" is "Yinglish," i.e. a combination of Yiddish and English. "Vot" is simply the English word "what" as pronounced by someone with a Yiddish accent.  The primary meaning of "mensch" is human being, referring to either gender, like человек in Russian.  (The word "mensch" would never be used to differentiate male from female.)  Now to the phrase from the story, "Vot [what] a mensch!"  The sense of mensch in this context, which is its most frequent use both in Yiddish and English, comes directly from its primary meaning, human being.  A mensch is a person whose actions express the best of what it is to be human: a truly good person, a person of integrity, honesty, kindness. A mensch could also be very smart or do something heroic, but neither intelligence nor heroism would be what make him a mensch.   To be a mensch means to live in a way that expresses fundamental human goodness.


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## Alphabetka

Over the centuries, the language used to study, discuss and interpret the Talmud in Ashkenazi Jewish yeshivas has always been Yiddish, and in many places (including Israel) still is. The Talmud is primarily written in Aramaic, not Hebrew, because Aramaic was the vernacular at the time the discussions recorded in the Talmud were taking place.  In Israel today, Hebrew is the vernacular, and thus many yeshivas use Hebrew in class, but other yeshivas, even in Israel, continue to use Yiddish.  

Regarding the varieties of Yiddish, three main dialects developed in Eastern Europe: Northeastern (Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus); Southeastern (Poland, Galicia, Hungary); Southwestern (Ukraine).  YIVO, the Institute for Jewish Research founded in Lithuania in 1925, became the center of Yiddish scholarship in language and literature, and Northeastern Yiddish became designated as "standard" because of the influence of YIVO scholars as arbiters of linguistic correctness and literary taste.  Just as the political borders of the countries listed above were in continual flux (to put it mildly), so were the divisions between varieties of Yiddish.   I am sketching only the broad outlines here, but if you want to find out more, you could not choose a better book than _Words On Fire:The Unfinished Story of Yiddish_ (2004) by Dovid Katz.   "Not only a great history, it's a great read.  Dovid Katz writes with the precision of a scholar, and the heart of a poet" (from the Advance Praise printed on the book jacket).


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## duvija

Yes, Words on Fire is a decent book. There were three others, written in the same year, with quite different interpretations.
Could you send me the link to any Yeshiva that uses Yiddish?
Reading 'Hebrew is the vernacular', makes me uncomfortable. A vernacular should be a 'natural' language, not one that was dead for centuries, and revived by sheer pushing a political agenda.


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## LilianaB

I know for sure that the Orthodox Jewish people in New York speak Yiddish and study half in Hebrew half in English in Yeshivas. I know they use Yiddish as the vernacular since I understand most of it because I understand German.


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## L'irlandais

duvija said:


> ...Could you send me the link to any Yeshiva that uses Yiddish?...


Hello duvija,
I couldn't find a direct link to any Yeshiva using Yiddish.  However I did find this article on Wikibooks which tells us that : 





> ...many English-speaking yeshiva-students, though they already know many Yiddish words, and even incorporate them into their English, are unable to understand a full shiur given in Yiddish  Source :  Yiddish for *Yeshivah* Bachurim


Elsewhere on Wiki 





> In the year 2000 census over a 113,000 people in New York claimed to speak Yiddish. _(Of course there exists no proof of their abiltiy other than they ticked a box on the census form.)_ In 2006 an Americian Community Survey estimated a 15% decline in the number of folks speaking Yiddish at home in the USA.  So while there exists a *growing popularity *among Americian Jews to learn the language, the opportunities to practise speaking it are diminishing.  source :  Wiki


I accept that wiki is not the most reliable source of information on this earth, it does however paint a picture of a language in difficulty, despite it's "growing popularity".


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## Alphabetka

duvija said:


> Yes, Words on Fire is a decent book. There were three others, written in the same year, with quite different interpretations.
> Could you send me the link to any Yeshiva that uses Yiddish?
> Reading 'Hebrew is the vernacular', makes me uncomfortable. A vernacular should be a 'natural' language, not one that was dead for centuries, and revived by sheer pushing a political agenda.



The vitality and future of Yiddish is a touchy point, that's for sure.  I will try to find confirmation that Yiddish is  currently used in some yeshivot. I remember being told that this is so, but that doesn't mean it is so.  I should have just said that the use of Yiddish to study Torah and Talmud, following traditional practice in Eastern Europe, continues today in many Orthodox schools where such study begins at a very early age. I was responding to your comment "Remember  that Yeshivas are religious and therefore tied to Hebrew, and Yiddish  is a non-religious language (with all the bagagge you can imagine)." 

There was a lot of looking-down-one's-nose on Yiddish for all kinds of reasons, but never a problem about using Yiddish for religious study (for a long time there was no other kind).  Many Torah and Talmud commentaries were written in Yiddish in order to reach more people, and the _magidim_, itinerant preachers who went from shtetl to shtetl, gave their sermons in Yiddish.  

Re: Vernacular.  The renewal and transformation of ancient Hebrew into a modern spoken tongue in the same region where it originally developed may be unusual, but this in no way contradicts the status of Modern Hebrew as the vernacular of the majority of Israeli Jews.  The Merriam-Webster definition of vernacular is "using a language  or dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary,  cultured, or foreign language." 

Now let's go to  Harkavy, "where you won't even find 'urine.'" Strangely believe it, "urea" "urethra" "urinal" "urinary" "urinate" and...ta da.... "urine" are on the English-Yiddish side of his earliest dictionary (written 1898, revised 1910), and on the Yiddish-English side (also in the 1928 revision that is only Yiddish-English)  _pishakhts_, _pishn_, _pish-pot_, and of course _pisher_ and even _pishern_!  Whatever Harkavy's faults, we shouldn't forget that his purpose was to help native speakers of Yiddish learn English. 

Duvija, I hope I do not come across as a little _pishern_ with my comments.  I am not a native speaker of Yiddish as you are, and how I wish I were!  I love Yiddish more than I can say -- to hear it and read it, and am thrilled to see Yiddish being talked about on this site, that I joined only yesterday.  Your 30 years in the Yiddish theater!  I would love to know more.


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## Alphabetka

A search for yeshivas where Yiddish is used would first entail identifying names and locations of a large number of yeshivot, a time-and-labor intensive task that I can't manage right now, but I did find the following material that is relevant to the question:
....................

“Among most Ashkenazi Haredim, Hebrew is generally reserved for prayer, while Yiddish is used for religious studies as well as at home and business. [….]  Hundreds of thousands of young children around the globe have been, and are still, taught to translate the texts of the Torah into Yiddish. This process is called טײַטשן (_taytshn_)—"translating" . Most Ashkenazi yeshivas’ highest level lectures in Talmud and Halakha are delivered in Yiddish by the rosh yeshivas as well as ethical talks of _mussar_.  Hasidic rebbes generally use only Yiddish to converse with their followers and to deliver their various Torah talks, classes, and lectures. The linguistic style and vocabulary of Yiddish have influenced the manner in which many  Orthodox Jews who attend yeshivas speak English. This usage is distinctive enough that it has been dubbed ‘Yeshivish.’”  _Yiddish Language, _Wikipedia
……………

“If English had truly been more suitable for Talmud study than Yiddish, then the Yiddish-English mixed language known as _frumspeak_ would not exist in post-War English speaking yeshivas. It is precisely because English does not possess the necessary vocabulary for Gemara that Yiddish, Hebrew and Aramaic terms have become such an integral part of a yeshiva student’s lexicon.”   Bruce Mitchell, _Language politics and language survival: Yiddish among the Haredim in post-war Britain_ (2006), pp. 11-12.
……………

“Though the Yiddish language took a heavy toll during the Holocaust, when most of its speakers were lost, the language is still commonly used to give _shiurim_ [lessons on Torah or Talmud].or _musar shmuessn_ [talks on ethics] in yeshivos. Unfortunately, many English-speaking yeshiva-students, though they already know many Yiddish words, and even incorporate them into their English, are unable to understand a full _shiur_  given in Yiddish.The purpose of this guide is to teach enough vocabulary and grammar to understand a Yiddish _shiur._”_  Yiddish for Yeshivah Bachurim_, Introduction. [Wikibook for open sharing]

P.S. I just discovered that l'irlandais had already cited the latter book in responding to Duvija on the same question.  I hadn't noticed her response from yesterday while writing my own just now (am still wearing my freshman beanie cap on WordReference Forums).  Apologies for the repetition..


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## duvija

Alphabetka said:


> The vitality and future of Yiddish is a touchy point, that's for sure. I will try to find confirmation that Yiddish is currently used in some yeshivot. I remember being told that this is so, but that doesn't mean it is so. I should have just said that the use of Yiddish to study Torah and Talmud, following traditional practice in Eastern Europe, continues today in many Orthodox schools where such study begins at a very early age. I was responding to your comment "Remember that Yeshivas are religious and therefore tied to Hebrew, and Yiddish is a non-religious language (with all the bagagge you can imagine)."
> 
> There was a lot of looking-down-one's-nose on Yiddish for all kinds of reasons, but never a problem about using Yiddish for religious study (for a long time there was no other kind). Many Torah and Talmud commentaries were written in Yiddish in order to reach more people, and the _magidim_, itinerant preachers who went from shtetl to shtetl, gave their sermons in Yiddish.
> 
> Re: Vernacular. The renewal and transformation of ancient Hebrew into a modern spoken tongue in the same region where it originally developed may be unusual, but this in no way contradicts the status of Modern Hebrew as the vernacular of the majority of Israeli Jews. The Merriam-Webster definition of vernacular is "using a language or dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary, cultured, or foreign language."
> 
> Now let's go to Harkavy, "where you won't even find 'urine.'" Strangely believe it, "urea" "urethra" "urinal" "urinary" "urinate" and...ta da.... "urine" are on the English-Yiddish side of his earliest dictionary (written 1898, revised 1910), and on the Yiddish-English side (also in the 1928 revision that is only Yiddish-English) _pishakhts_, _pishn_, _pish-pot_, and of course _pisher_ and even _pishern_! Whatever Harkavy's faults, we shouldn't forget that his purpose was to help native speakers of Yiddish learn English.
> 
> Duvija, I hope I do not come across as a little _pishern_ with my comments. I am not a native speaker of Yiddish as you are, and how I wish I were! I love Yiddish more than I can say -- to hear it and read it, and am thrilled to see Yiddish being talked about on this site, that I joined only yesterday. Your 30 years in the Yiddish theater! I would love to know more.



Sorry about my 'urine' example. Of course it's there. But curse words, aren't.


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## duvija

Adn there we go, back to politics. Loved it when Israel didn't allow Yiddish to be spoken . Ben Yehuda won the battle.


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## Alphabetka

duvija said:


> Adn there we go, back to politics. Loved it when Israel didn't allow Yiddish to be spoken . Ben Yehuda won the battle.



  אַז דער וואָרעם זיצט אין כריין, מיינט ער אַז עס איז קיין זיסערס ניטאָ.

Az der vorem zitst in khreyn, meynt er az es iz keyn zisers nito.
When a worm sits in horseradish, it thinks there is nothing sweeter.

At least now that Modern Hebrew is established, they have changed their tune.    Yiddish events, study programs, and advanced courses at universities are on the rise in Israel. Of course Israel is just now falling in step behind the Yiddish renewal that started elsewhere a few decades ago.  

I am glad to see it happening, though Yiddish will never be what it once was, just as the world will never be what it was before 1939.


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## duvija

A curious story. Everybody knows that in the really Jewish areas of New York, the kids will speak Yiddish, even among themselves (and they are not allowed to speak Hebrew, by their super-orthodox parents). Of course, this implies a situation of diglossia, where Yiddish shouldn't be written at all. But ... there is a rebel movement, among older kids, with long black coats and long beards, and they meet in strange places to write Yiddish literature! I found it pretty sweet. No idea of how they're doing, though...


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## Alphabetka

A great story.  May the rebels live to 120 and write Yiddish in good health to their last day.


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## Alphabetka

duvija said:


> Sorry about my 'urine' example. Of course it's there. But curse words, aren't.



You're right, and Yiddish curses are the best.  And why use just one curse word when Yiddish can really pour it on?   

  אַלע ציין זאָלן אים אַרויספֿאַלן, נאָר איינער זאָל אים בלײַבן אויף צאָנווייטיק.

  Ale tseyn zoln im aroysfaln, nor eyner zol im blaybn af tsonveytik.
May all his teeth fall out, except one to give him a toothache.

עסן  זאָלסטו געהאַקטע לעבער מיט ציבעלעס, שמאַלץ הערינג, יויך מיט   קניידלעך,  קאַרפּ מיט כריין, אײַנגעדעמפֿץ מיט צימעס, לאַטקעס, טיי מיט   ציטרין, יעדן  טאָג – און זאָלסט זיך מיט יעדן ביס דערשטיקן!

Esn  zolstu gehakte leber mit tsibeles, shmalts hering, yoykh it   k'neydlekh,  karp mit khreyn, ayngedemfts mit tsimes, latkes, tey mit   tsitrin, yedn  tog - un zolst zikh mit yedn bis dershtikn!
May  you eat chopped liver with onions, shmaltz herring, chicken soup   with  dumplings, baked carp with horseradish, braised meat with   vegetable  stew, latkes, tea with lemon, every day - and may you choke   on every  bite!


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## duvija

Alphabetka said:


> You're right, and Yiddish curses are the best. And why use just one curse word when Yiddish can really pour it on?
> 
> אַלע ציין זאָלן אים אַרויספֿאַלן, נאָר איינער זאָל אים בלײַבן אויף צאָנווייטיק.
> 
> Ale tseyn zoln im aroysfaln, nor eyner zol im blaybn af tsonveytik.
> May all his teeth fall out, except one to give him a toothache.
> 
> עסן זאָלסטו געהאַקטע לעבער מיט ציבעלעס, שמאַלץ הערינג, יויך מיט קניידלעך, קאַרפּ מיט כריין, אײַנגעדעמפֿץ מיט צימעס, לאַטקעס, טיי מיט ציטרין, יעדן טאָג – און זאָלסט זיך מיט יעדן ביס דערשטיקן!
> 
> Esn zolstu gehakte leber mit tsibeles, shmalts hering, yoykh it k'neydlekh, karp mit khreyn, ayngedemfts mit tsimes, latkes, tey mit tsitrin, yedn tog - un zolst zikh mit yedn bis dershtikn!
> May you eat chopped liver with onions, shmaltz herring, chicken soup with dumplings, baked carp with horseradish, braised meat with vegetable stew, latkes, tea with lemon, every day - and may you choke on every bite!




Ha!
When I was working on my dissertation on 'Intonation in Yiddish', one of my professors wanted me to write a whole chapter on 'intonation in Yiddish curses'. So I go to my 'informant' du jour (a very old Rabbi), set up the whole digital tape recorder, start to ask him questions, and then I asked him to 'say aloud any Yiddish curse you can remember'. And the guy said 'NO'. I ask why? and he said "zey muzn nit visn!"
So, the full sentence would be:  'They shouldn't know (we actually curse)'. And that's the reason there isn't a chapter on curses...


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## Alphabetka

duvija said:


> Ha!
> When I was working on my dissertation on 'Intonation in Yiddish', one of my professors wanted me to write a whole chapter on 'intonation in Yiddish curses'. So I go to my 'informant' du jour (a very old Rabbi), set up the whole digital tape recorder, start to ask him questions, and then I asked him to 'say aloud any Yiddish curse you can remember'. And the guy said 'NO'. I ask why? and he said "zey muzn nit visn!"
> So, the full sentence would be:  'They shouldn't know (we actually curse)'. And that's the reason there isn't a chapter on curses...



So there were no other informants who were willing to curse for you? (not at you )  What were the categories of your other chapters?  Intonation in Yiddish is so important, it is like music.  I noticed that you said you were in a choir, so your interest in intonation makes a lot of sense.  Did you draw diagrams to represent the intonation?  I am very interested!


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## duvija

Alphabetka said:


> So there were no other informants who were willing to curse for you? (not at you ) What were the categories of your other chapters? Intonation in Yiddish is so important, it is like music. I noticed that you said you were in a choir, so your interest in intonation makes a lot of sense. Did you draw diagrams to represent the intonation? I am very interested!



You work on intonation by 'reading' the pitch track. It's part of a whole spectrographic analysis, and it involves a lot of computing. If you want, you can download (free) a great program: Praat. If you follow their directions, you get to do anything you like. (Their = 2 Dutch professors who keep upgrading the program). I kind of worry, because at some points, I think I'm 'reading' a computer artifact and not the real voice, but I made peace with myself, and think the pitch track is a pretty good representation.
My problem with finding informants, it's that they should have been native speakers (and those, I found many). What I didn't realize in advance, was that they should be native and current speakers, not people who live in another country and speak another language, and have been doing it for most of their life time. And there aren't such speakers of Yiddish. Intonation is one of the first things that flies out the door, as soon as you start your total immersion in English or Spanish. We transfer too much.

Some of the pieces I tried to study were phrases like 'Kokhn, kokh zi nit, ober esn, est zi genug' (Cooking, she doesn't, but eating, she eats enough). It works with many verbs, and it has its own cadence. So my problem was trying to understand if intonation is part of semantics, or an independent module that gets attached to syntax and semantics at the same time.
It was based on Autolexical Syntax, a theory that keeps the gramm. modules apart, and sometimes the languages favor one, sometimes another. And the study of those clashes. 
I'm trying to explain it as much as I can, but ...


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## Alphabetka

duvija said:


> Some of the pieces I tried to study were phrases like 'Kokhn, kokh zi nit, ober esn, est zi genug' (Cooking, she doesn't, but eating, she eats enough). It works with many verbs, and it has its own cadence. So my problem was trying to understand if intonation is part of semantics, or an independent module that gets attached to syntax and semantics at the same time.
> It was based on Autolexical Syntax, a theory that keeps the gramm. modules apart, and sometimes the languages favor one, sometimes another. And the study of those clashes.
> I'm trying to explain it as much as I can, but ...



I studied linguistics (generative grammer) and Russian intonation back in the olden days of horse-drawn carriages, so regarding newer theories, I am an amateur, but Autolexical Syntax seems to be a much more open approach to the interplay of all dimensions of communication compared to Chomsky's rules.  To figure out how intonation fits into this dynamic picture is a great topic (is it finished? is it available?). 

My interest is not in theory _per se_, but in learning and singing the intonation patterns or melodies that have been passed down, with innumerable variations, in Jewish tradition.  These patterns are so interesting to me because their intrinsic beauty is inseparable from syntax and semantics. They are a form of oral punctuation (though not in the manner of the brilliant Victor Borge's "phonetic punctuation") that clarifies meaning and often enhances the drama for the listener; they were developed very early at a time when there were no books in which to follow along.  These patterns, known as "tropes," were originally an oral tradition that may date back to the time of Ezra. The oral tradition was not recorded until the 10th century C.E. in Tiberias. Trope is still used to _leyn_ (literally to read, but in this context, to cantillate) the text of the Torah, Prophets, Book of Esther, Lamentations, etc.  The system of tropes applies only to Hebrew texts.

_G__emora-nign_, the use of melody to study Talmud, is also present in Yiddish speech, and moreover, I believe, had an influence on Yiddish intonation.  The patterns are linked to particular viewpoints expressed in the course of deliberating on an issue: purely informational questioning, sceptical questioning, assertion, negation, contrast, puzzlement, etc.  They are used in reading aloud from the Talmud as well as in discussing it. The melodies also appear in songs that take the form, often humorous, of a Talmudic discussion.  One song in Talmudic style has Ukrainian as well as Yiddish in the speech of the singer, a Jew.  An entire category of songs uses Yiddish and whatever Slavic language is spoken locally.   

A Yiddish song called "Der Alter Menashe," a dialogue between husband and wife, is unusual in that the wife presents her case in Talmudic style using Talmudic terms in traditional _gemore-nign_: the family has no money for food since all he does is study.  The husband finally ends the discussion with: _

S'shteyt geshribn in Rashi az a yidishe tokhter tor nit fregn keyn kashes_.
It is written in Rashi [commentary by the renowned medieval scholar Rashi, the "father" of all commentators who came after him] that a Jewish daughter is not allowed to ask any questions**.  

**The word used here for questions, _kashes, _is not the everyday Yiddish _frages,_ but the Aramaic term specifically used in the Talmud for difficult questions that require considerable discussion.

The reason I asked earlier about diagrams is that a very interesting dissertation has diagrams to represent the intonational contours used by informants with particular texts  -- _Music of Holy Argument: The Ethnomusicology of Talmudic Debate_ by Lionel Wolberger (Wesleyan University, 1990).  One of the topics he covers, based on an article by George List, is "The Boundaries Between Speech and Song."

I hope I haven't transgressed the boundaries with this long message about music as much as about Yiddish.


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## gevenamolalandaziseafaine

duvija said:


> now there is some kind of revival


Where? I'd just love to see it spoken actively outside of the Haredi quarters.


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