# Persian:  جستجو jostoju & search



## PersoLatin

Why do 'we' use jostoju جستجو, as a one-to-one translation for English 'search'?

To me, جستجو has the equivalent construction as گفتگو or شست و شو where the  past & present stems of the same verb are used. I appreciate that this may be a pattern of use, rather than a grammatical rule, however the inconsistency, in the case for جستجو, is confusing.

We agree جست-jost derives from جستن and جو-ju from جوئيدن-juŷdan, so for جستجو to correctly translate to 'search', both جستن and جوئيدن must means the same, (albeit, different verbs) and according to Dehxodâ, they do.  Is that always the case?

To me جستجو jostoju means 'seek & find' & 'search' should be جو-ju, on its own.


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## Treaty

I guess because جستجو is a noun. There is no comparable noun using mere جو (there is جویش but it is very uncommon). Persian has a tendency to use کردن with nouns instead of using the nouns' cognate verbs. "search" is one level deeper than "seek" and "find". Considering جستن also means "to find", using جستجو will fit better for more elaborate "search".

P.S. I guess جوییدن is just a مصدر جعلی for the stem جوی.


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## colognial

In agreement with Treaty on the infinitive, I admit I've never even heard of 'jooeedan' (جوییدن). 'Joo' has exactly the same position as 'goo', 'shoo', and 'roob' (in 'roft o roob'); it's basically the imperative mood for the verb 'jostan'.


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## colognial

PersoLatin said:


> Why do 'we' use jostoju جستجو, as a one-to-one translation for English 'search'?



Why shouldn't we, PersoLatin, and what do you suggest as a better word to use in place of jostojou?


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## fdb

just- and jōy- are in fact the past and present stems of the same verb, proto-Iranian yud- in ablaut with yawd-. jōyīd- is a secondary past stem, formed from the present stem plus –īd. just-u-jōy is thus an exact parallel of guft-u-gōy.


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## PersoLatin

As جوئيدن doesn't seem to really exist (Treaty's explanation مصدر جعلى), then everything is in order & جستجو, like گفتگو and شستشو, falls perfectly in place.

It's worth mentioning the difference between گفتن and گفتگو كردن, with the latter implying, a deliberate & at least a two way 'conversation'. In the same way, جستجو كردن, I believe, could have started life, as search for something/one, by more than one person.

Hi colognial, جستجو serves the purpose well but I think جوى, or جويش which Treaty also mentioned, would have worked better.


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## PersoLatin

Thank you fdb, based on your comment & what Treaty said, do we believe the following conjugations to be incorrect, at least uncommon?
جوييده، جوييده ام، جوييديم، جوييدند


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## eskandar

colognial said:


> In agreement with Treaty on the infinitive, I admit I've never even heard of 'jooeedan' (جوییدن).


Really? That's surprising to me, unless I've misunderstood you. I've encountered it not infrequently, from classical literary settings like the Shahnameh (plenty of other classical examples as well) to rather contemporary ones like in Mohsen Namjoo lyrics.


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## colognial

eskandar, I'm surprised, too, mainly at myself for not recalling how in the fairy tale about _Namaki_, the precocious child has to pick fleas one by one out of the tangle of _Deev_'s hair!  There may indeed have been a sentence in there which ran like this: _Namaki sare Deev o gozaasht too daamanesh o gissaash o jooreed o jooreed taa ke Deev khaabesh bord _... so _Namaki _could get up to mischief looking for and finding, and wreaking havoc with, the _Deev_'s "life jar". Of course I'm only making up the actual words, but it's quite possible that _jooreedan_ as the word for some sort of picking out has already been coined and established itself.

I was not able to check out the Namjoo lyrics, regrettably so; the address has been blocked off, I suppose, to keep me safe from MN's corrupting influence. (Blocking hardly stops one feeling the pin prickling one through the sole of one's shoe, though!)

The Ganjoor link led me to these lines:

بجویید و آن توشهٔ ره کنید
بکوشید تا رنج کوته کنید​
which I fear doesn't tell us whether or not _jooeedan_ could be the infinitive. So I don't know.

And, this being the extent of my knowledge, there's nothing I can do, especially as _jostan_ is the verb I was taught at school where they only teach you how to write correctly. Notwithstanding the dearth, I am quite happy to decree: _Jooeedan_ we can have if we want it badly enough; who's to say adoption of the word is not done; in fact, I'm all for having it. Back to PersoLatin - Hi, PersoLatin! - who is the only person who can tell us what use exactly he/she is thinking of putting the verb to. (PersoLatin has good ideas, so I'm genuinely interested.) I'll just add this, if I may: _jostojoo_ is an OK word, too, because it imparts, to me anyway, the feeling that one doesn't move in a straight line while one's searching. So perhaps it is true that 'search' is just 'search' and not a precise equivalent.


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## PersoLatin

The idea was to discuss the accuracy of translation of جستجو. I believe we have made a good job so far...

I mentioned جوييدن in the context of my original question, I don't have a particular use in mind. But now that we are here, it's good to know if we can use it, in all its forms.

Another 'out there' idea - With fdb & Treaty's comments in mind (secondary past stem & مصدر جعلى), I believe جوييدن must have existed as a fully bonafide verb, BUT because its written form, could easily be mistaken for the colloquial form of جويدن (to chew), it just fell out of favour. Of course, except amongst  writers & poets.

BTW colognial, you can use he, to refer to me.


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## PersoLatin

> gisaash o joorid o joorid..



Did you mean jooyid (juŷd) for the second joorid?

Sorry colognial, the quote option didn't work well for me.


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## colognial

جوریدن سر برای یافتن شیپیش (همان شپش) منظورم است و فکر می کنم به جوییدن ربط مستقیم داشته باشد ولی مطمئن نیستم


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## PersoLatin

How about juridan as in 'putting in order' or جور كردن?


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## colognial

No, I don't think so, sorry!


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## colognial

PersoLatin said:


> The idea was to discuss the accuracy of translation of جستجو. I believe we have made a good job so far...
> 
> I mentioned جوييدن in the context of my original question, I don't have a particular use in mind. But now that we are here, it's good to know if we can use it, in all its forms.
> 
> Another 'out there' idea - With fdb & Treaty's comments in mind (secondary past stem & مصدر جعلى), I believe جوييدن must have existed as a fully bonafide verb, BUT because its written form, could easily be mistaken for the colloquial form of جويدن (to chew), it just fell out of favour. Of course, except amongst  writers & poets.
> 
> BTW colognial, you can use he, to refer to me.



PersoLatin, search and jostojoo may not overlap completely insofar as meaning and nuance go, I wouldn't be able to tell, I'm sure. Search can sometimes be more of an equivalent to 'gashtan be donbaal', as when it's used in the construct 'search party'. But in general humans basically feel the same way and perform a similar action when they're searching for something.


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## Treaty

جوریدن is parallel to شوریدن (in the meaning of شستن not شورش). In both cases ی is turned into ر in the present stem.  However, جور کردن (and also جفت و جور کردن) is different. I looks the same as the one in چه جور / این جور, meaning "[similar] type".

I couldn't find even one instance of jooyid- (the past or infinitive) in ganjoor database. The Dehkhoda's entry for جوییدن is also void of any reference or example, so I would say it was not as common as جستن, neither in literary nor in everyday speech.


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## PersoLatin

Hi Treaty, Dehkhoda does have an entry for جوئيدن and points it to جستن. I mentioned this in my initial post.



> both جستن and جوئيدن must means the same, (albeit, different verbs) and according to Dehxodâ, they do.



http://parsi.wiki/dehkhodasearchresult-fa.html?searchtype=0&word=2KzZiNuM24zYr9mG


BTW - I don't know why my 'quotes' don't have the correct information, timestamp, id etc.


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## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> Hi Treaty, Dehkhoda does have an entry for جوئيدن and points it to جستن. I mentioned this in my initial post.



I didn't say that Dehkhoda's Loghatnameh doesn't have a entry for جوییدن. I said it doesn't have a reference (to earlier lexicons and dictionaries) and example (like a poem or prose from classic literature). So, it means Dehkhoda probably picked it from his own usage or heard it from others. The same is for جوریدن, though there is not even an entry for it in the original Loghatnameh ( interestingly, there is a شوریدن, though again without a proper example).


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## PersoLatin

Treaty, sorry, you are absolutely correct.


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