# Old Norse - Styrkr Utan Styrkr



## Sabatour

Hey guys - 
Trying to double check some of my research on the web. Looking for the correct old Norse for Strength Beyond Strength and some of the sites I have found list multiple words for Strength. 

Any help would be much appreciated and thanks a ton in advance. 





Erik


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

I know modern Icelandic rather than Old Norse, but it seems extremely unlikely to me (basically impossible) that both nouns would be in the same case, since _beyond_ here would be a preposition rather than an adverb. I would also worry more about the preposition than the noun _styrkr_, just _utan_ looks very likely to be wrong based on modern usage. 
Do you know any Old Norse?


----------



## mosletha

Styrkr has many forms, and which form you use depends entirely on the case. Here, 'utan' actually governs the genitive case, so 'utan styrks'  would be correct and 'utan styrkr' is wrong. But I don't believe that's  the right preposition to be using here... I might be wrong on that.

I believe it would be more correct to say '_styrkr fyrir handan styrk_' ('fyrir handan' governs the accusative case), but this is assuming 'styrkr' is in the nominative case... If  you want to say something like 'I've got strength beyond strength', that would be in the accusative case: '_ek á styrk fyrir handan styrk_'. 

Hopefully I'm not too far off with this.


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

Again based only on modern usage, I would expect _fyrir handan_ to mean physically _beyond_, like the other side of a river or something.


----------



## mosletha

I see... in that case, perhaps 'styrkr *handan* styrks' is more correct? 

I'm getting this from the Icelandic translation of Nietsche's "Beyond Good and Evil", "Handan góðs og ills".


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

Oh I don't know. As I say, it's not _really_ my area. I suppose _beyond_ always sort of means _the other side of_, so Old Norse equivalents could be used in a metaphorical way as well - it depends what OP means by _beyond_. The point is that OP would need to do careful study before being confident about any sort of preposition usage, which is usually the hardest part of learning any language. Handan is a good guess I think.
Apparent unfamiliarity with noun declension does not bode well for appropriate preposition usage. I suppose we can only hope that nobody's planning to get this tattooed on themselves.


----------



## Sabatour

Wow, thanks for the fast responses!
Admittedly I am not a student of languages and yes Silver that was the exact intent if I could get it nailed down correctly.


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

I feared as much. If you want that phrase and you want it to make sense you should stick to English or some other language that you speak well. 

If you don't know anything about the language but just think that Old Norse is cool and mysterious and nobody will be able to read it anyway, I suppose you might as well go for _styrkr utan styrkr_ and tell people it means _strength beyond strength_ because who cares, right, you'll totally look like a Viking!

Or you could find something different in a genuine Old Norse text that you like. That way at least you'd know that it was an example of real language usage and not google-translatesque nonsense. I assume you are familiar with some examples of Old Norse / Old Icelandic culture at least in translation, if you feel an affinity with it. Just go back to the original text and see how it was originally written. It is very much not recommended to attempt translations into a language that is not your native tongue (especially if you've never even studied it!), and Old Norse is of course nobody's native tongue, although there are many people who can read it. It is _very very_ much not recommended to then take that translation and permanently write it on yourself.


----------



## Sabatour

Not really Silver and the tone of your responses is a little insulting but text is sometimes misleading and I appreciate the help none the less. I have spent a good bit of time researching my ancestry tree through good old fashioned family research and DNA testing. So my interest is a bit more than just "look like a Viking".

I am absolutely more interested in the saying being grammatically correct and historically accurate as opposed to what others think - thus the reason I came here to discuss with people who know much more about it than I.


----------



## Alxmrphi

The important thing then is to be very sure of what meaning is being sought after so that the right equivalent can be found.
Now, in all honestly, _strength beyond strength_ doesn't mean anything to me. It's like a sequence of very tattoo-appropriate words but when I come to try to conceptualise the meaning to then try and think of something that might be fitting, I struggle with exactly what is meant with those words. That might just be me, but I think it'd be good to have a definite explanation just to remove all doubts so nobody can misinterpret the idea behind it.


----------



## Sabatour

Absolutely - simply put it would mean _internal strength_ as in beyond normal physical strength


----------



## NorwegianNYC

The problem her - the way I see it - is that both _styrkr fyrir handan styrk and __handan styrkr styrk_ would mean something to the effect of "strength that lies further away than this strength". Which may or may not be the metaphysical equivalent you are going for. It might actually have been interpreted in a very real world sense. However, since we do not know how the old Norsemen would have expressed this, it might be perfectly fine as well.


----------



## Sabatour

Understand - and thanks again for the effort on this guys, really appreciate the help.


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

Alex is right that you would first need to be absolutely clear on the  meaning of the source text before  beginning a translation into a target language. But it still isn't  really good enough. Finding the right equivalent depends on native knowledge. As Norwegian NYC says, there's no way to tell a grammatical and appropriate sentence from grammatical but completely nonsensical rubbish.

Someone  who has studied Old Norse can help  you achieve grammaticality, no doubt. But if you can't find it (or  something extremely similar) in an Old Norse  text in Old Norse, there is not really any way of telling whether it's  "historically accurate", whether it's something that somebody might have  said/written or whether it's something that would make an 12th century  Norseman roll his eyes or something he simply wouldn't really "get".  It's a dead language and a dead culture. If  option 2 of what I said is out, as I say, you have two remaining options:

1. Write in a language you know.
2. Find a genuine Old Norse quote that you like.

I  assume you've never done translation or thought about what it entails,  but it is an extremely complex process and even the simplest things can  be riddled with pitfalls, because language exists in a culture not in a  vacuum. That's why reputable translators always translate from a language they've learnt _into_  their native language, so that they have full understanding of what  they're writing and how it operates in the target culture. There are no  native speakers of Old Norse, and nobody who lives in that target  culture, so although it is easy enough for me as an Icelandic speaker to  notice obvious grammatical errors in what you wrote, completely  reliable translation is not possible. Of course translations have been done into dead languages, like _Harry Potter_ into Latin, but you'd better believe that any Roman would read that and be completely baffled. 

Is  this an idea that a Norseman would have understood? Are there different  words for mental and physical strength (if there are it would render  your phrase meaningless)? Is there such a thing as_ strength_ that is _not_  physical in Old Norse? If so, would a Norseman have considered mental  strength to be of greater value than physical strength (if he would not,  then your phrase doesn't work, ordered as it is in your explanation)?  Is there a preposition that equals this sense of the word _beyond_ (i.e. _more than_, implied _of greater value than_ - this is the trickiest part)? 
Do  you see how your phrase is loaded with modern-day English-speaking  culture and how difficult, well nigh impossible, it would be to get that  over into a language that nobody even speaks? If you continue along that road, you _are_ going with option 2, I don't care I just want to look cool.


----------



## Sabatour

Oh absolutely Silver - and that is why I am here. After finding multiple words for strength online I figured this would be the case. You are correct, I have never done translation but I had a pretty good idea at the depth of this task as it is a dead language. Was hoping there would be an equivalent to the meaning that people might pick up on right away that I had not come across in my research.


----------



## Silver_Biscuit

Right but the point is that this search ("Looking for the correct old Norse for Strength Beyond Strength") is going to be fruitless, so you have to choose between expressing the meaning you have in mind in English or allowing the Old Norse culture to express itself. Why not go straight to the sources, let the Norsemen speak for themselves rather than trying to transpose something onto them?_ Hávamál_, for example, is a beautiful, witty and inspiring foray into Old Norse culture, where it can be seen how much qualities like wit, intelligence, friendship, moderation and hospitality were valued. There are a lot of other poems in the _Poetic Edda_ as well that are really great.


----------



## Sabatour

Great point Silver - will check those out.


----------

