# to minimize loitering



## graced

Is there a way to say "loitering" in Spanish as a noun? I see only verbs in the WordReference entry. If I want to say something like "They did it to minimize loitering," can I do this and keep "loitering" as a noun?


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## William Stein

graced said:


> Is there a way to say "loitering" in Spanish as a noun? I see only verbs in the WordReference entry. If I want to say something like "They did it to minimize loitering," can I do this and keep "loitering" as a noun?



i don't think you can get a one-word translation but if you want a noun you can say: Lo han hecho para minimizar la presencia de personas perturbadores/ociosas, etc.


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## gengo

Well, loitering is a gerund, which functions as the infinitivo form of a verb in Spanish, so merodear is probably pretty close.  I found several legal dictionaries that defined loitering as merodear con fines sospechosos o delictivos, and you might be able to use just the verb if your context makes the meaning clear.  Or you could rephrase it as WS did.


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## Adolfo Afogutu

"Vagabundos" was the first thing that came to my mind. A bilingual parking sign here (no loitering: no se permite vagabundos).
Saludos


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## gengo

Adolfo Afogutu said:


> "Vagabundos" was the first thing that came to my mind. A bilingual parking sign here (no loitering: no se permite vagabundos).



I was going to suggest that, but I wasn't sure it had the same connotation, since a loiterer may not be a bum (vagabundo).  Loitering refers to the gathering of people in an area where criminal activity tends to occur, but those people are not usually bums.  Also, I notice that the sign you linked to is a translation, so I wondered how common it is without the English part.  If it sounds natural to you, then I'm convinced.


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## William Stein

Adolfo Afogutu said:


> "Vagabundos" was the first thing that came to my mind. A bilingual parking sign here (no loitering: no se permite vagabundos).
> Saludos



It's very hard to define the concept of "loitering" in English, which makes it hard to translate. It's basically just a pretext for the police to be able to kick anybody out they want to, it all depends on the context. On a public basketball court, "no loitering' could mean nobody but basketballplayers and their girlfriends or parents (= no drug dealers). In front of a school, it could mean nobody but students, parents and teachers but it's completely at the discretion of the cops. So how are you supposed to translate that: Prohibido a indeseables?


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## Adolfo Afogutu

I'm not convinced either, gengo. The problem is that I've never seen such signs in any Spanish speaking country. ¿Indeseables, William? Too strong, I think.


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## William Stein

Adolfo Afogutu said:


> I'm not convinced either, gengo. The problem is that I've never seen such signs in any Spanish speaking country. ¿Indeseables, William? Too strong, I think.



"Loitering" is supposed to be a crime so it can be strong. It's all kind of hypocritical because it really means 'No poor and/or suspicious people allowed" but of course the city can't post a sign like that.

Shopping malls are an interesting case. The shop owners would like to pay the security guards to kick out everybody who isn't a customer, but that's not legal in the US, so "no loitering" signs allow them to keep out anybody they want to (usally teenagers who look like they might be gang members or homeless people or whatever). 

I agree "Prohibido a indeseables" might appear too arrogant. I think people here just know that the police can kick out anybody who looks suspicious and they don't need any signs to tell them that.


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## Adolfo Afogutu

Totalmente de acuerdo. Es ilegal echar a la gente por su simple apariencia. Además de ilegal, para mí es vomitivo, una asquerosa forma de discriminar a la gente: por su peinado, por cómo se visten, si tienen "piercings" y una larga lista de cosas así. Pero es cierto, aquí se hace todos los días: en ciertos bares o lugares bailables, en los centros comerciales, etc.


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## William Stein

Sí pero puede ser justificado en ciertos casos. La útlima vez que estuve en un "mall" en los EEUU tenian una lista de insignias de pandillas prohibidas (gorro de baseball al revés y hacía la derecha o no sé que). Son delicuentes muy peligrosos así que uno no quiere hacer compras con ellos.


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## translator.cat

vagancia...


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## Luis Coig

I have obsessed over "No loitering" for some time and I think the best translation would be something like "Prohibido holgazanear aquí".  

To loiter, by definition means "to stand or wait around idly or without apparent purpose", so Spanish words like "merodear" or "vagar", which connote movement, do not convey the exact meaning. "Merodear" is problematic considering it means: "Vagar por las inmediaciones de algún lugar, en general con malos fines." There is no evil intention in "loitering", there is simply "no apparent purpose", and there is no movement either, as implied in "vagar". A person who is loitering is just standing there, and there is nothing is the word that implies that the person has any wrongdoing in mind. So I don't understand why the dictionaries define it as "merodear con fines sospechosos o delictivos". If it is against the law to stand in a place doing nothing, then that is the law and that is that, there is no need to make assumptions as to what the person has in mind.


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## gengo

Luis Coig said:


> "Merodear" is problematic considering it means: "Vagar por las inmediaciones de algún lugar, en general con malos fines." There is no evil intention in "loitering", there is simply "no apparent purpose", and there is no movement either, as implied in "vagar". A person who is loitering is just standing there, and there is nothing is the word that implies that the person has any wrongdoing in mind. So I don't understand why the dictionaries define it as "merodear con fines sospechosos o delictivos".



We need to consider the usage of the word, and not just its strict definition.  "To loiter" is almost always used in the context of criminal activity, to refer to people who are standing around and probably planning something illegal.  We would not use it to refer, for example, to a man who is standing in a shopping mall and just watching the people go by, unless we suspected that he was planning some crime.  The man has no apparent purpose, but he would not be said to be loitering.

Therefore, it is the usage of this word that gives it its negative nuance.  "No loitering" signs are posted only in locations where the authorities believe it is likely that a crime (fighting, theft, etc.) may be committed, such as outside a bar.


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## Ballenero

En España, en otros tiempos (más autoritarios) existía la "ley contra *vagos y maleantes*". 
Hoy en día ha desaparecido, supongo que (como ya se ha dicho) porque es dificil definir quién es un vago y quién es un maleante.


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## Ciprianus

Los *edictos policiales* sobre mendicidad,* vagancia*, ebriedad, prostitución y otras cuestiones existieron en Argentina hasta hace poco. En realidad no se si todavia existen en alguna provincia.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

graced said:


> Is there a way to say "loitering" in Spanish as a noun? I see only verbs in the WordReference entry. If I want to say something like "They did it to minimize loitering," can I do this and keep "loitering" as a noun?



Sí.

Los gerundios que funcionan como nombres en inglés, normalmente indican acciones. Esto en español suele decirse de dos formas:

Una es cuando el gerundio se refiere a actividades establecidas (industrias, disciplinas deportivas, hobbies, etc), que se hace con nombres acabados en
-ción (igual que -ismo, -aje, -aza, -ado, y algunas otras terminaciones). A veces, además, puede usarse un infinitivo nominal. Por ejemplo;

- Flying - Aviación
- Swimming - Natación
- Building - Construcción
- Running - Atletismo
- Skating - Patinaje
- Dancing - Danza
- Hunting - Caza
- Smoking - (el) Fumar / Ahumado
- Knitting - Labor de punto, calceta


Cuando el gerundio inglés se refiere a actividades menos establecidas (que no son industrias, disciplinas, etc), o a acciones con sentido progresivo o de estar en desarrollo (acciones que ocurren momentáneamente, o repetitivas, como movimientos, golpes o ruidos), en español suele equivaler a nombres terminados en -eo (o las otras terminaciones, aunque esas no son tan frecuentes). También se usa el infinitivo. Ejemplos;

- Tapping - Golpeteo
- Knocking / Banging - Golpeteo
- Shaking / Trembling - Temblequeo
- Mumbling - Murmurar / Balbuceo
- Ringing - Campanilleo (llamada, timbre, sonido)
- Shooting - Tiroteo
- Bubbling - Burbujeo
- Walking - Paseo, andar(es)
- Strutting - Contoneo


"Loitering" sería:

(*) Con -eo;
- Merodeo
- Vagabundeo

(*) Con el infinitivo;
- Merodear
- Vagabundear
- Agruparse
(Formar grupos)


Así, los carteles quedarían;

"Prohibido detenerse"
"Prohibido el vagabundeo / la mendicidad"
"No (se permite) agruparse / formar grupos"

En las propiedades y obras suele haber carteles con "Prohibido el paso (a las personas ajenas)". Quizás algo parecido sería acertado.


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## Luis Coig

Okay, Gengo, we need to consider the usage of the word, and the general usage of the word is simply signs that say "No Loitering", as reflected in the other forum discussions about the word here. We can't really translate that as "Prohibido detenerse aquí a fin de planificar actividades delictivas". 

And in some cities a person can be arrested for remaining in certain locations without having any particular reason for being there even if the person has no illegal activity in mind.

.
Cerros, para merodear y vagabundear es imprescindible desplazarse, mientras que para "loiter" hay que quedarse en el mismo lugar.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Adolfo Afogutu said:


> The problem is that I've never seen such signs in any Spanish speaking country.



Yes, I think this nails it.

We not only have an issue of a "linguistic gap" between both languages, or blocks of countries, between English-speaking, and Spanish-speaking countries. But we also have an issue of a "cultural gap", as this kind of signs are not common in Spanish-speaking countries.

So, there is this difficulty in the original sense of the term itself in English - which, according to Wikipedia, is a "Law term". That is, a "legal concept" with a very definite definition, and also a long tradition in Law, as well as in policing.

I'll link the page, where it makes some interesting points - among them, the fact that, if it is considered a crime, it's because that activity tends to be associated with other crimes; it is a "preceding step" to further / bigger crimes.


On the other hand, we have the issue that the terms used in Spanish-speaking countries tend to focus on the concept of "merodear" or "vagabundear" (or "vagabundos", or other similar terms). That is, they focus on the "people" (often, specially in the past, falling in stereotyping), or in the fact of "lacking a fixed abode", rather than in the act of "loitering". This is probably due to the different sociological composition, urban structure of their cities, etc. Probably, even to their different histories.

On the other hand, I don't agree with this view that the terms "merodear", or "vagabundear" refer to movement... That is in their general senses, but not in this particular context of, where they refer to the same fact as loitering; to the fact of not being there for any concrete purpose.


This is the link to the Wikipedia entry I mentioned before;

*(*) Wikipedia
- Loitering*

"Loitering has historically been treated as an inherent preceding offense to other forms of public crime and disorder, such as prostitution, begging, public drunkenness, dealing in stolen goods, drug dealing, scams, organised crime, robbery, harassment/mobbing, etc."

Loitering - Wikipedia


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## Rodal

Luis Coig said:


> Cerros, para merodear y vagabundear es imprescindible desplazarse, mientras que para "loiter" hay que quedarse en el mismo lugar.



Se puede estar en un mismo lugar y vagabundear, el solo hecho de estar allí es un acto de vagancia lo mismo para merodear. 

No obstante, me gusta más la palabra merodear puesto que no define a la persona de vagabundo ni le falta el respeto a nadie.


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## Ciprianus

Vagancia
Holgazaneria
Merodeo
Vagabundeo


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## Luis Coig

Wikipedia says "*Loitering* is the act of remaining in a particular public place for a protracted time, without any apparent purpose." And the RAE says that merodear is "Vagar por las inmediaciones de algun lúgar, en general con malos fines." I just want to know how "the act of remaining" can be married to "vagar", which in English is "to wander". Either the person remains in one place, or the person wanders off. Wandering around or near a place is not the same as remaining in that place. The two concepts are mutually contradictory.

It is interesting how there is this verb in English for "staying in one place", which in Spanish would be something like "estar ahí parado sin hacer nada", and furthermore "for no purpose", or "sin ningún propósito". That's doing nothing for no reason! No wonder it is difficult to translate.


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## Cerros de Úbeda

Luis Coig said:


> Either the person remains in one place, or the person wanders off. Wandering around or near a place is not the same as remaining in that place. The two concepts are mutually contradictory.



No. That's where you're wrong.

You are just taking the terms 'merodear' and 'vagar' too literally - apart from ignoring the context where they are used (the rest of the explanation / phrase), which are almost literally the same in both languages.

It is not "wander off", what "vagar" means, but "wander around". You see the difference?

It refers to "staying (around a place)", maybe not static, alright. Maybe moving, maybe coming and going. But the point is "staying in the area", either looking  at something (spying a property, waiting for an opportunity, etc), or looking for something. Waiting... Being around... Being available... 

It refers to "being / staying in the area".


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## Ciprianus

*vagancia.*
Del lat. _vacantia._
1. f. Acción de vagar (‖* estar ocioso*).
*vagar*
2. intr. *Estar ocioso*
DLE


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## Luis Coig

"Vagar" means simply "to wander", whether "off" or "around" depends on what you want to say. But still, wandering around a place is not the same as staying put in that place. You can wander "around" a place and never actually get to the place itself. Like walking along the circumference of a circle without ever stepping into its center. So if loitering is remaining in one place how can you say that wandering around that place is loitering?

Ciprianus, that's the other meaning of" vagar", which is not the definition Cerros and I are debating.


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## gengo

Luis Coig said:


> So if loitering is remaining in one place how can you say that wandering around that place is loitering?



"To loiter" does not require someone to stand still.  It can include moving around within a relatively limited area, which could be as large as a city block, for instance.


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## Ciprianus

Luis Coig said:


> Ciprianus, that's the other meaning of" vagar", which is not the definition Cerros and I are debating.



Ya se, pero es el significado que tiene relación con el tema de este hilo, vagancia, acción de vagar (estar ocioso) es la traducción de loitering.


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## Luis Coig

Okay, so how about "Prohibido vagar sin propósito en este lugar" for "No loitering"?


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## lauranazario

Ciprianus said:


> Ya se, pero es el significado que tiene relación con el tema de este hilo, vagancia, acción de vagar (estar ocioso) es la traducción de loitering.


Retomando la consulta (y volviendo al tema, como has hecho)... ni siquiera "vagancia" es la palabra que se utiliza en todos los casos ni en todos los entornos como traducción de _loitering_. Hay diferentes vocablos y todo depende de la usanza local... y respaldo mi planteamiento con ejemplos.

• En un letrero de un supermercado en Florida, USA usan "holgazanear" (foto #1)
• En un letrero de una tienda en México lo han puesto como "merodear" (foto #2)
• En un letrero a la venta en internet utilizan "merodeando" y "vagando" (foto #3)

saludos,
LN


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## Rodal

Luis Coig said:


> Okay, so how about "Prohibido vagar sin propósito en este lugar" for "No loitering"?



Vagar no tiene propósito, por lo tanto decir prohibido vagar sin propósito suena algo absurdo. La gente que vaga lo hace porque no tiene nada más que hacer pero decir esto en un letrero puede sonar discriminatorio para las personas que no tienen un lugar donde vivir. Deambular es más universal y se le puede exigir a todo el mundo; sin embargo las personas que deambulan por lo general sí tienen un propósito en mente. Ahora deambular sin propósito también me suena algo absurdo y da luz verde a las personas a que deambulen con propósito. Ahora deambular según RAE es andar sin dirección determinada (wander around) y no coincide 100% con el significado de loitering (stand around without purpose) pero considero que es la palabra más acertada dentro de un contexto legal puesto que loitering también incluye deambular en su descripción.  Si se quiere ser más preciso se puede explicar el significado. Se prohíbe deambular y quedarse en un solo lugar sin un propósito definido. Aunque sea largo decirlo, creo que sería la mejor forma de definirlo.


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## chileno

Luis Coig said:


> I have obsessed over "No loitering" for some time and I think the best translation would be something like "Prohibido holgazanear aquí".



Creo que le has pegado en el clavo. Es exactamente lo que que significa. Como se ha dicho que incluso en inglés es difícil porque vago significa ser un "bum" etc...



lauranazario said:


> • En un letrero de un supermercado en Florida, USA usan "holgazanear" (foto #1)
> • En un letrero de una tienda en México lo han puesto como "merodear" (foto #2)
> • En un letrero a la venta en internet utilizan "merodeando" y "vagando" (foto #3)



 Es cuestión de como lo han traducido, no de uso local. Yo como Luis Coig la traducción hecha en Florida es correcta.

No estoy de acuerdo de que loitering significa algo malo por necesidad, pero de que ha sido usado para prevenir crimen es claro.


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## Luis Coig

Vagar puede muy bien tener un propósito. Yo creo que la definición de vagar que nos atañe aquí es "Andar por varias partes sin determinación a sitio o lugar, o sin especial detención en ninguno." Uno puede vagar de un sitio a otro sin ningún propósito, pero tambien por toda clase de razones válidas.

Tambien acierta el letrero de internet que dice primeramente "Prohibido permanecer en este lugar". Con eso se dice todo. Esta prohibido permanecer ahí para cualquier propósito.


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## Ciprianus

"Si no tiene nada que hacer no lo haga aquí" es la traducción de "No loitering" en Bs. As.


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## Ballenero

Is 'No Loitering' the reason why you can see protesters in the US many times walking in circles with their signs in front of a specific place?
Because I think they aren't allowed to stay just standing there.


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## gengo

Ballenero said:


> Is 'No Loitering' the reason why you can see protesters in the US many times walking in circles with their signs in front of a specific place?
> Because I think they aren't allowed to stay just standing there.



I don't think it's related.  It's probably just that moving signs are more noticeable than stationary signs.  Besides, a law against loitering could still be enforced against a person walking in circles.  See my post #25 above.


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