# Isolation/Integration of immigrants in your country.



## lmarfell

I'm currently writing a paper in my French class about the isolation and/or integration (within society) of immigrant women in France. (Muslim women in particular)
So, I was just wondering what your own views were (all of you, not just the French natives!) about the treatment and acceptance of immigrants within your own countries.

I'm British and I feel its a bit mixed. Some people, like myself, are almost indifferent. When I meet someone new, it doesnt occur to me to make a judgement based on whether they were born in Britain or not, or based on the colour of their skin. I think my country has been very welcoming and accepting and that we have allowed immigrants to integrate into our society.
However, there are some issues of course. Some people view these immigrants (mostly of Indian heritage) as threatening. Unfortunately, few immigrant youths do anything to counter this view and sometimes can be found to behave confrontationally. Some say that those who have emigrated here aren't "working for their keep" and get annoyed when they can't speak English.
I have to say, though, that on the whole I have no qualms with those living in my country who are not technically "British", and feel that the majority of British people don't mind, either.

What are your views?
Also, as a sidenote: if you have any specific views about France and women, that would be really helpful! Thanks.

- LM


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## Residente Calle 13

Here are some of my views but they are not scientific at all.


In the United States :

1) Christian Arabs integrate into society much easier than Muslim Arabs as a general rule. See #5.

2) Wealthier immigrants tend to integrate better than poorer ones. 

3) English-speaking immigrants tend to integrate easier than those who do not speak English at the time the arrive in the United States. 

4) Educated immigrants tend to do better and join the middle-class at much faster rates than other immigrant groups.

5) Immigrants from places that are very far away tend to do better than immigrants that are from countries that are closer.


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Here are some of my views but they are not scientific at all.
> 
> 
> In the United States :
> 
> 1) Christian Arabs integrate into society much easier than Muslim Arabs as a general rule. See #5.
> 
> 2) Wealthier immigrants tend to integrate better than poorer ones.
> 
> 3) English-speaking immigrants tend to integrate easier than those who do not speak English at the time the arrive in the United States.
> 
> 4) Educated immigrants tend to do better and join the middle-class at much faster rates than other immigrant groups.
> 
> 5) Immigrants from places that are very far away tend to do better than immigrants that are from countries that are closer.


 
Hi, I am an immigrant in Spain, and I can give you my point of view since before I went, I have seen a lot of my friends immigrating to various countries. I agree with Residente almost 99%, except the number 5, about which I don't have any particular opinion, since I think that is not so important. 
People who are the same religion, or at least have the same or similar cultural roots as the targeting country, who are educated and have something to "offer" (for example, in Britain, there is a lack of medical staff, like nurses and dental asistants, so if an immigrant is a nurse or dental assistant, better) to a targeting country, who speak language or learn it quickly have more chances to integrate themselves into a new society. In one word, those who are better prepared integrate themselves quicker. There is also another very important point - their will to integrate into a new society. If one comes to another country and sticks stubornly to old customs that don't serve in a new environment, one never be able to integrate him/herself...


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## Residente Calle 13

Hi Natasha,

Number 5 applies to the US and perhaps only to the US. What I think happens is that distance and cost of travel filters out some immigrants from countries that are very far away.

This, of course, is a trend, not a rule. Cubans, who came from a country that's less than 100 miles from the US do extraodinarily well in the US, for example. But I do think one of the reasons Asians do so well in school in the US is that we have some of the best Asians in the world here and part of that is that it takes a lot of commiment to come all the way over here.

I don't mean to disparage Asian countries in any way but I think in the US we get a very smart, motivated and talented Asian people and that part of that is because for most Asians it's very difficult to make it to the US.

The other part of that equation, as you mentioned, Natasha, is that we need them!


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Hi Natasha,
> 
> Number 5 applies to the US and perhaps only to the US. What I think happens is that distance and cost of travel filters out some immigrants from countries that are very far away.
> 
> This, of course, is a trend, not a rule. Cubans, who came from a country that's less than 100 miles from the US do extraodinarily well in the US, for example. But I do think one of the reasons Asians do so well in school in the US is that we have some of the best Asians in the world here and part of that is that it takes a lot of commiment to come all the way over here.
> 
> I don't mean to disparage Asian countries in any way but I think in the US we get a very smart, motivated and talented Asian people and that part of that is because for most Asians it's very difficult to make it to the US.
> 
> The other part of that equation, as you mentioned, Natasha, is that we need them!


 
OK. Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand your point.


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## rubes1

I remember how cruel the kids in my high school in the States were to the new immigrants. If you have an accent, your chances for integration are ruined. A girl I know from Croatia who was a foreign exchange student at a HS in New Jersey told me how they completely ostracized her. Her only friends were the other exchange students. I remember them making fun of a Morrocan girl and of a Russian girl too for having "different" names. Atrocious! If American kids are that cruel, they have to be learning some of that from their parents. My dad is Yemenite and though he was educated (he has a PhD), he still faced a lot of discrimination. Like I said, if you have an accent, it doesn't matter what socioeconomic class you belong to, life becomes much harder for you in the States. There were some of us who came from different ethnic backgrounds, but since we didn't have an accent, we were accepted, even if our names were different...

On the other hand, here in Israel, they accept new immigrants so warmly! They generally integrate well and you have friends from all over the world. The Israelis know a lot of words in the native languages of the immigrants too, like Amharit (the Ethiopians) and Russian (many immigrants from the former USSR). But the problem here is I'd say that some immigrant groups, primarily the Russians, choose to segregate themselves & do not try to learn about the culture & many have been here for decades & still cannot speak the language!


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## Residente Calle 13

rubes1 said:
			
		

> If you have an accent, your chances for integration are ruined.



Well, yes and no. I think you mean foreign accents. We have many accents in the US and we discriminate against some of the local ones more than we do against many of the foreign ones. 

The US has many successfully integrated immigrants who never loss their accents. Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, and Arnold "the guvenah of Califohnia' come to mind. But yes, people make fun of foreign accents here and everywhere.


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## rubes1

I meant foreign accents, yes. And I wouldn't be surprised if any of the aforementioned invidivuals were made fun of in high school!!!!! Also, these are good examples, but rare. I think the things I described above happen less in large cities like NY or LA, where there are many immigrants. In white suburbia, however, these things are common.


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> The US has many successfully integrated immigrants who never loss their accents. Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, and Arnold "the guvenah of Califohnia' come to mind. But yes, people make fun of foreign accents here and everywhere.


 
Yes, but these people are FAMOUS and IMPORTANT in US, which I tend to believe is not the case when it comes to just plain, anonimous people....


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## Residente Calle 13

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Yes, but these people are FAMOUS and IMPORTANT in US, which I tend to believe is not the case when it comes to just plain, anonimous people....



I admit, Natasha, that I don't have a foreign accent and I come from a big city. I'm also a very important and famous person [just kidding!].

I just want to take a few seconds to say that some foreign accents are quite glamorous in the United States. Some people hire people from other countries to give their companies an air of sophistication. I have even seen a poll (I saw it without necessarily believing it) that people in the US were more likely to believe something if they were told in a British accent. It's plausible. 

Sometimes foreign accents are an asset. There are postive stereotypes about immigrants as well. They are supposed to be "hungry", looking to move up, and willing to put up with a lot of things Americans won't put up with because they don't have it easy and put a lot into being here. It's a project for them, not mere existence. And they also see the big picture because coming here implies having long term goals.

I will never forget one day my father looked at a homeless drug-user on a corner and said : "Oh my, what a waste of a green card! Give any Dominican his spot and he would have three jobs." And the truth is, many Americans feel the same way.


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## grumpus

Hi Residente/rubes1/natasha  and others,

interesting discussion.  Accent is not a limiting factor, compared to other things (e.g. "race"  skin color) to integration or success in the U.S.
Having been in the "hard" sciences for the last 10 years, accents helps, not hinders.  A lot of my colleagues grew up in "communist" countries and therefore have a very solid education.   So an eastern European accent says " I have a good foundation in science".  My southern California accents says " I should be flipping hamburgers".  

The Cuban success story is complicated.  I feel comfortable saying that black Cubans have not done as well as white Cubans; they face the same barriers to some extent as African-Americans.

Grumpus


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## rubes1

Ok, so I think the conclusion is, if you have a foreign accent that is NOT considered glamorous, you will have a harder time! This is not to say that people with accents cannot succeed, they simply face obstacles similar to those faced by blacks and other minorities in the States.


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## HDragomiroff

In Madrid Chinese people usually own bazaar shops and Chinese restaurants. They are hard working and usually learn Spanish but still keep their customs, their restaurants are decorated in a Chinese style; they still celebrate their own new year etc. Although locals sometimes resent competition Chinese people usually don’t collide with the community. 
Immigrants should only change their lifestyle where it collides with the laws and common sense for example do show their faces in their identity cards, do not refused their daughters go at school because they mustn’t speak to boys, do not force them to suffer clitoris ablation and so on.
British people complain about immigrants who can't speak English. But nobody can you be sure that if moving to another country, he/she would not act in the same way. There are British ex-pats in Spain living in ghettos and they don't speak Spanish.


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## Residente Calle 13

HDragomiroff said:
			
		

> British people complain about immigrants who can't speak English. But nobody can you be sure that if moving to another country, he/she would not act in the same way. There are British ex-pats in Spain living in ghettos and they don't speak Spanish.



I guess they don't live in *ghettos* in the American sense of the word. I would think that Brits who live in Spain are relatively well off. I don't think la Costa Brava is at all like Compton although I've never been to either places.


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## grumpus

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I guess they don't live in *ghettos* in the American sense of the word. I would think that Brits who live in Spain are relatively well off. I don't think la Costa Brava is at all like Compton although I've never been to either places.



Hi Residente,
I have been to Compton and very close to the Costa Brava and, surprisingly, they do seem to be a bit different (ha ha).

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## Residente Calle 13

rubes1 said:
			
		

> Ok, so I think the conclusion is, if you have a foreign accent that is NOT considered glamorous, you will have a harder time! This is not to say that people with accents cannot succeed, they simply face obstacles similar to those faced by blacks and other minorities in the States.



Well, yes. Many people might hear someone from Israel and say "this is another foreigner who is here to steal our jobs." Another person might say "that's an interesting accent, I wonder where she's from." And glamorous is not the same to everybody. I happen to think that many accents are seen this way here. It cuts both ways. And just about any foreign accent can be seen as exotic and threatening.

I used to shop at a liquor store *just* because the owner was an Israeli with an accent I just loved to hear her speak. She also worked really hard and was always knowledgeable and nice to her customers as well as to her employees. I could have gotten the same wine at the same price two blocks down but she did a good job and I wanted to spend my money there because of it. She seemed to want my money and I was glad to spend it while listening to her talk about the most mundane things.

I think people associate that immigrant hunger with accents. At least here in NYC they do.

Someone said something about Eastern European accents and a solid education and I think that works here in the East Coast as well for many fields. There are negative stereotypes of Eastern Europeans here in NYC. Russians in particular tend to be seen to have a superiority complex, I think they have the right to have one because they are so much more competant than the locals in so many ways, and that's interpreted as a bad thing. But nobody thinks an Eastern European accent means you're dumb. Quite the contrary. 

Slavic = Somebody who went to school in a country were schools work.


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## HDragomiroff

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I guess they don't live in *ghettos* in the American sense of the word. I would think that Brits who live in Spain are relatively well off. I don't think la Costa Brava is at all like Compton although I've never been to either places.




*ghetto* *A*_noun_*1 **ghetto*
_a poor densely populated city district occupied by a minority ethnic group linked together by economic hardship and social restrictions _

*2 **ghetto*
_formerly the restricted quarter of many European cities in which Jews were required to live; "the Warsaw ghetto" _

*3 **ghetto*
_any segregated mode of living or working that results from bias or stereotyping; "the relative security of the gay ghetto"; "no escape from the ghetto of the typing pool" _
_--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------_

_The last one is the closest to what I mean._
_I don´t know Comptom. I assume it´s a place that fits with the first definition._


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## Residente Calle 13

HDragomiroff said:
			
		

> *ghetto* *A*_noun_*1 **ghetto*
> _a poor densely populated city district occupied by a minority ethnic group linked together by economic hardship and social restrictions _
> 
> *2 **ghetto*
> _formerly the restricted quarter of many European cities in which Jews were required to live; "the Warsaw ghetto" _
> 
> *3 **ghetto*
> _any segregated mode of living or working that results from bias or stereotyping; "the relative security of the gay ghetto"; "no escape from the ghetto of the typing pool" _
> _--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------_
> 
> _The last one is the closest to what I mean._
> _I don´t know Comptom. I assume it´s a place that fits with the first definition._



Yes, I kind of suspected that. What I was trying to distinguish, I guess, is that kind of immigrant who moves somewhere to enjoy the good weather and the kind immigrant who moves somewhere for other more pressing reasons.

I think many immigrants are forced to live in ghettos but others kind of cooperate with this process and actual live in a ghetto which is "mental" more than anything else. A sort-of self-segregation if you will. And not all of these places are ghetto likes Compton. You could say Chinatown in New York or La Calle Ocho in Miami are not quite quite Compton and perhaps not quite Costa Brava. Somewhere in between, I guess.

My parents are from the Dominican Republic but I live in New York and there is a neighborhood here they call "Quisqueya Heights" (the real name is Washington Heights). My opinion is that these kinds of neighborhoods are good for immigrants in the short run but in the long run bad for them and bad for the city. Every Dominican who comes here should have a plan for moving out of Washington Heights as soon as possible.

We do have good neighborhoods that are very ethnic in NYC. I guess I don't see that as bad as ethnic neighborhoods which happen to also be lousy places to live. I mean, if you are going to live in a rotten place, at least let it be diverse and if you are going to seal yourself off from the rest of the city at least make your city within a city a decent place to live.

Can you guess I don't like Washington Heights or crummy ethnic neighborhoods.


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## asm

There are different types of immigrants. I totally agree with you on your statement # 5 for Hispanics, not necessarily from other geographical areas.  The people who do not adapt easily, as you mentioned in your post tend to be poor and uneducated. Poor people from South America have more difficult time to migrate to the US, while it is not that difficult for Mexicans. Central America has people who do travel to the States; those countries offer less educational opportunities. On the other hand, people from South America who come to the States need to have more money and education to take the trip; poor people do not consider the USA to migrate, middle class do.
   People from other continents have to travel even further, and that might explain part of the difference. 
   Remember there are many reasons why people migrate, and prosperity is one of them, but not the only one. There are voluntary and involuntary migration (in the past Blacks were brought to the US without their consent, nowadays, children come even if they do not want).



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Hi Natasha,
> 
> Number 5 applies to the US and perhaps only to the US. What I think happens is that distance and cost of travel filters out some immigrants from countries that are very far away.
> 
> This, of course, is a trend, not a rule. Cubans, who came from a country that's less than 100 miles from the US do extraodinarily well in the US, for example. But I do think one of the reasons Asians do so well in school in the US is that we have some of the best Asians in the world here and part of that is that it takes a lot of commiment to come all the way over here.
> 
> I don't mean to disparage Asian countries in any way but I think in the US we get a very smart, motivated and talented Asian people and that part of that is because for most Asians it's very difficult to make it to the US.
> 
> The other part of that equation, as you mentioned, Natasha, is that we need them!


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## HDragomiroff

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Yes, I kind of suspected that. What I was trying to distinguish, I guess, is that kind of immigrant who moves somewhere to enjoy the good weather and the kind immigrant who moves somewhere for other more pressing reasons.
> 
> I think many immigrants are forced to live in ghettos but others kind of cooperate with this process and actual live in a ghetto which is "mental" more than anything else. A sort-of self-segregation if you will. And not all of these places are ghetto likes Compton. You could say Chinatown in New York or La Calle Ocho in Miami are not quite quite Compton and perhaps not quite Costa Brava. Somewhere in between, I guess.
> 
> My parents are from the Dominican Republic but I live in New York and there is a neighborhood here they call "Quisqueya Heights" (the real name is Washington Heights). My opinion is that these kinds of neighborhoods are good for immigrants in the short run but in the long run bad for them and bad for the city. Every Dominican who comes here should have a plan for moving out of Washington Heights as soon as possible.
> 
> We do have good neighborhoods that are very ethnic in NYC. I guess I don't see that as bad as ethnic neighborhoods which happen to also be lousy places to live. I mean, if you are going to live in a rotten place, at least let it be diverse and if you are going to seal yourself off from the rest of the city at least make your city within a city a decent place to live.
> 
> Can you guess I don't like Washington Heights or crummy ethnic neighborhoods.


 
That’s interesting, maybe sometimes there is no real lack of integration but people from similar ethnic origins, cultures, social classes etc. tendency to group.


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## Residente Calle 13

HDragomiroff said:
			
		

> That’s interesting, maybe sometimes there is no real lack of integration but people from similar ethnic origins, cultures, social classes etc. tendency to group.



That's true. It happens even in your typical High School. In mine, granted this was many moons ago, you would see how the lunchroom auto-segregated and in that situation any one is free to sit where they want.

There is a town in New England called Lawrence and it's also very Dominican but at least it's a nice, safe, and good place to live! By the way, I realize how subjective I'm being. 

 I guess what I'm saying is, if you are going to lock yourself into one place at least pick a nice place.


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## Outsider

To what extent do immigrants get to choose where they live?


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## grumpus

Hi Outsider et al.
that is a good question to ask.

It also seems to me that the pressure to integrate is particularly strong in the U.S.  In my time in Spain, there didn't seem to be the pressure to integrate.  (But a lot of hostility towards immigrants, perhaps worse than the U.S.)  It doesn't seem to exist at all in Brazil or Mexico (not big foreign communities though).

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## HDragomiroff

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Outsider et al.
> that is a good question to ask.
> 
> It also seems to me that the pressure to integrate is particularly strong in the U.S. In my time in Spain, there didn't seem to be the pressure to integrate. (But a lot of hostility towards immigrants, perhaps worse than the U.S.) It doesn't seem to exist at all in Brazil or Mexico (not big foreign communities though).
> 
> Saludos,
> Grumpus


 
Could you provide some example of hostily? I am curious.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> To what extent do immigrants get to choose where they live?


The restrictions are economic mostly. Immigrants who come with money live wherever they want. Poor immigrants have to live in places where they can afford the rent. So it's the same as for everybody else.

If you speak only Spanish it kind of helps to live in a place where you can do your shopping in Spanish. Not to mention be able to shop in stores where you will find the kind of food you are used to eating and actually know how to cook. If you are "crashing" with a cousin you live where he/she lives.

But once you get on your feet, you can live where you want as long as you can afford it. Many people remain in ethnic neighborhoods not because they can't move out but because they get used to living in that community. At that point, they are not segregated, they segregate themselves. For many, it just simply never occurs to them that there is a world outside of their ethnic enclave. It's a mental thing.

I understand it. Some people develop relationships with their neighbors, they have family living down the block, etc. But in the long run, it's bad for inmigrants to auto-segregate. I'm against it for the same reason I'm against all-girl schools. It might have it's good points but it's not a reflection of what the real world is like and also sends a bad signal.

My parents lived in those kind of places but when they felt they could get out they got out. They remain Dominican but have adapted some American ways. Not at gunpoint either. They actually *like *some things about this country and that's why they came here. If they did not make those gestures to reach out to their host country, I would tell them, without any compunction, that they should seriously consider going back to where they came from.

Some people come here to work for a few years, save money,and go back, I don't mind those people sealing themselves off. I don't mind them coming either because the truth is that we need them and if we didn't they wouldn't come. They typically start working the day they after they come and their last day is the day before they leave.

But if you have long term plans to say here you are going to have to get used to doing some things the way they are done here.


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> The restrictions are economic mostly. Immigrants who come with money live wherever they want. Poor immigrants have to live in places where they can afford the rent. So it's the same as for everybody else.


It _would_ be the same as for everyone else, if immigrants earned, on average, the same as everyone else does. But they don't, do they?
And then there's discrimination, like when owners refuse to sell houses or land to certain ethnicities because they don't want to 'taint' the neighbourhood...


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> It _would_ be the same as for everyone else, if immigrants earned, on average, the same as everyone else does. But they don't, do they?
> And then there's discrimination, like when owners refuse to sell houses or land to certain ethnicities because they don't want to 'taint' the neighbourhood...



Well, a poor American lives, mostly, where he can afford it. Poor immigrants don't live in Penthouses on Park Avenue, mostly, for the same reasons poor Americans don't. They don't have the money. In other words, the line is mostly rich/poor not American/foreign. 

Housing discrimination is illegal. It still happens but that's not something that is directly related to immigration. In other words, Americans are discriminated for housing as well.


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Well, a poor American lives, mostly, where he can afford it. Poor immigrants don't live in Penthouses on Park Avenue, mostly, for the same reasons poor Americans don't. They don't have the money. In other words, the line is mostly rich/poor not American/foreign.


You can't separate the two. They are not independent, because immigrants are naturally more likely to go through financial hardships than natives. 



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Housing discrimination is illegal. It still happens but that's not something that is directly related to immigration. In other words, Americans are discriminated for housing as well.


Yes, but immigrants are more likely to be from 'undesirable' ethnicities, and to protest less, in case they're discriminated.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> You can't separate the two. They are not independent, because immigrants are naturally more likely to go through financial hardships than natives.
> 
> Yes, but immigrants are more likely to be from 'undesirable' ethnicities, and to protest less, in case they're discriminated.


Yes. Immigrants are more likely to be poor (which is why they have to immigrate) so they are more likely to be treated like crap. But we have a great deal of white immigrants too and they get treated like crap as well. And we have millions of poor white Americans living in terrible conditions.

Poor people get the shaft. I don't see how that's anything new or particular to immigration.

I have immigrant friends who are black but who also happen to be very rich. They don't live in ghettos. They live in huge houses in very nice places and drive nice cars and go to the best schools.

Do they experience discrimination? Probably. But their immigrant status does not put them in the South Bronx. They manage to purchase mansions in White Plains. They are a tiny minority as far as immigrants are concerned but my point is that in this country, while white is an important color, green (from money not from the card) is a very important color.


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Yes. Immigrants are more likely to be poor (which is why they have to immigrate) so they are more likely to be treated like crap.


Not only that, but they are more likely to be paid less, and get less social benefits than natives, once they arrive in the host country, especially if they're illegal. 



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> But we have a great deal of white immigrants too and they get treated like crap as well. And we have millions of poor white Americans living in terrible conditions.
> 
> Poor people get the shaft. I don't see how that's anything new or particular to immigration.
> 
> I have immigrant friends who are black but who also happen to be very rich. They don't live in ghettos. They live in huge houses in very nice places and drive nice cars and go to the best schools.
> 
> Do they experience discrimination? Probably. But their immigrant status does not put them in the South Bronx. They manage to purchase mansions in White Plains. They are a tiny minority as far as immigrants are concerned but my point is that in this country, while white is an important color, green (from money not from the card) is a very important color.


There are always exceptions, of course, and there's a middle-to-upper class brand of immigration (actors, professors, sportsmen, businessmen...), alongside the more significant low-class immigration.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Not only that, but they are more likely to be paid less, and get less social benefits than natives, once they arrive in the host country, especially if they're illegal.


I agree. Part of that has to do with the fact that many people come here untrained in a certain field. I met Peruvian students who came to Salt Lake City for the Olympics. They were students so they waited tables. That's not a job that is particular to immigrants. Many American students do the same thing. My Peruvian friends were as white as any white person can be so I don't think they were restricted to restaurant work because of their color.

Immigrants tend to get paid less not because we hate them and want them to suffer, but because they tend to lack the skills that pay higher wages. Programmers, doctors, nurses, and other profesionals who come here from other countries might get paid a bit less than their American counterparts but they don't get paid what waiters and gardeners get paid because they are highly-skilled workers.

I think it is important to point out that immigrants do get treated badly for being from somewhere else (and because of racism) but it's also important to point out that some of it has to do with the economic factors that are not that different for poor Americans. In fact, some actually discriminate heavily against poor whites because the "Mexicans at least have the excuse that they just got here and blacks had segregation to deal with."

That's not my attitude but it does exist. You can say things about poor white people in public you couldn't dream about saying about Hispanics or blacks.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> It _would_ be the same as for everyone else, if immigrants earned, on average, the same as everyone else does. But they don't, do they?


 
Hi, Outsider... I wouldn't agree with this. If an immigrant comes prepared and has something to offer, he earns the same as if he were an American. I'm saying this because I have a lot of friends who went to the USA, mostly computer experts or with other high education that is welcomed in the US, and now they are rich, or at least wealthy people. But one thing is sure, nobody gave them anything for free... They earned every cent they get. Having these examples, I would agree with Residente, the USA makes severe selection even before those people gat to american soil, and takes the best for itself... The rest don't even manage to get to their borders... (Legally)....


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## Outsider

*Residente Calle 13*, I've been focusing on the points about which we may have different opinions because those are the ones worth discussing, but I agree with most of what you're written so far.

In particular, even though I've argued that immigrants may be pushed into ghettoes because of their financial situation and their ethnic identity, I don't deny that many of them choose to live in closed communities. It makes perfect sense. If I went to work in the United States, I would probably prefer to live in a neighbourhood where people had a similar culture to mine, and spoke my language, if I could; my children and grandchildren might have different ideas. I think that 'ethnic' communities can be positive for the first generations of immigrants, providing them with cultural and human 'safety nets', places where they don't feel so foreign and lost, and neighbours who can teach them the ways of their new homeland.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I agree. Part of that has to do with the fact that many people come here untrained in a certain field. I met Peruvian students who came to Salt Lake City for the Olympics. They were students so they waited tables. That's not a job that is particular to immigrants. Many American students do the same thing. My Peruvian friends were as white as any white person can be so I don't think they were restricted to restaurant work because of their color.


While I agree with everything you wrote here, I think there's another reason why poor immigrants tend to be paid less than natives of similar economic background. Many of them remain illegal for a significant amount of time, so they can't demand equal rights to the ones of native workers, which allows their employers to drive down wages and cut benefits.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> Not only that, but they are more likely to be paid less, and get less social benefits than natives, once they arrive in the host country, especially if they're illegal.
> 
> There are always exceptions, of course, and there's a middle-to-upper class brand of immigration (actors, professors, sportsmen, businessmen...), alongside the more significant low-class immigration.


 
OK, I agree with this, I wrote my earlier post before reading this. Unfotunately, there is still more illigal than legal immigration...


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think there's another reason why poor immigrants tend to be paid less than natives of similar economic background. Many of them remain illegal for a significant amount of time, so they can't demand equal rights to the ones of native workers, which allows their employers to drive down wages and cut benefits.


Yes. I know people who didn't have a status for a very long time and their choices were indeed limited. (I use the term "status" because I don't think people can be *illegal*). There is no way to argue against that and I think you are absolutely right. 

In that sense, it's much different for them than it is for people with comparative skills who have a status. And to be perfectly honest, US immigration laws restrict legal immigration from some countries more than from others. Guess which ones? 

At the same time, those individuals, and I understand this is not a scientific way of looking at it, mostly found a way to get a status and did well. And other immigrants who do get a status still do poorly anyway. I think the difference is that the immigrants without a status I knew were middle-class and their parents were college educated. Sad but true. Education makes a huge difference.

Puerto Ricans, for example, are US citizens and have been for a very long time and yet they tend to struggle disproportionately when immigrating to the United States. Part of the reason is that Puerto Rico would be by far the poorest state in the Union if it became a state today. *SOME* immigrant groups who don't enjoy that status tend to do, on the whole, much better, according to what I can gather from statistical data I've read.

There are many Eastern Europeans who are here illegally and from what I can gather, there are no Polish versions of Spanish Harlem or the South Bronx, for example. I honestly think there are several factors behind that. I think Eastern Europeans tend to be from more advanced countries (Poland and Russia are not _that _poor) and they tend to be better educated. There may be other factors but I don't think I could measure those. 

I hope none of this comes off as racist. I don't think Russians are better than Puerto Ricans and I actually love Puerto Rico as much as my own country because I think the are the nicest people I have ever been in contact with. I also know a great deal of Puerto Ricans from poor backrounds who do well here. I'm just sharing what I think is the immigrant experience from different angles here in the US.


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## Outsider

I absolutely agree with you. Eastern Europeans tend to be very skilled, because their countries invested a great deal into education during communist rule, and had higher education institutions with long traditions of excellence. Now, ironically, the capitalist West is reaping those fruits of communism.


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## HDragomiroff

Thank you Natasha I have already heard opinions like that. You can meet people that think like that every day, even though you are not aware. I was asking for examples of *open* hostility. I mean for example people who talk you in an unkind way in your daily life because you are an inmigrant etc.


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## natasha2000

HDragomiroff said:
			
		

> Thank you Natasha I have already heard opinions like that. You can meet people that think like that every day, even though you are not aware. I was asking for examples of *open* hostility. I mean for example people who talk you in an unkind way in your daily life because you are an inmigrant etc.


 
From my personal experience, I really have to admit I find Spanish people very friendly, not worse nor better than any other nation... Most of the time I have spent here, I haven't felt like a stranger, unwelcomed or discriminated... Almost all obstacles I found here I consider normal, and it was up to me to pass them. The life in a foreign country is not easy, but I don't complain. Ofcourse I would like, I might have better life than it is now, but hey... Money is not everything nor the most important thing in the world. 
On the other hand, I would take my testimony with reserves, since I am European, white, educated and I speak Spanish very well. So, at the first glance, I don't look very different from an everage Spanish woman. So, maybe some other type of immigrant really has a different kind of story...

Neverheless, I do hear from time to time the opinions like those in the link I gave you and it makes me feel sometimes very annoyed, sometimes very sad, because I see that kind of thinking like an excuse for a personal failure... "I didn't manage to get a better job because some filthy imigrant came to take it away from me...." Maybe this immigrant is better prepared than you, and one who pays wants to get the best from what is offered to him... 
But, then, nobody is perfect, and I really don't see these kind of opinion very relevant in question of immigration. 

On the whole,* I haven't felt discriminated in Spain,* even though I live in Catalonia and I don't speak Catalonian. Never had a problem with a language, nobody looked down on me because I don't speak catalan, never! Yes, people speak to me in Catalan, but I don't mind, I am in Catalonia, so it is a completely normal thing that people speak to you in Catalan. And when they see I don't speak it, they pass to Spanish (Castilian) without any problems...


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## Residente Calle 13

I wonder, Natasha, if the immigrant experience in Spain is conditionned by the fact that so many Spaniards themselves immigrated in the past. Do you get that? Do people tell you "I understand, Natasha, my uncle lived in Germany." or something like that?


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## natasha2000

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I wonder, Natasha, if the immigrant experience in Spain is conditionned by the fact that so many Spaniards themselves immigrated in the past. Do you get that? Do people tell you "I understand, Natasha, my uncle lived in Germany." or something like that?


 
No, Residente, they do not tell me "I understand you, bla bla..." I just... live here as if I would live at any other place. I don't know if I explain myself well... I personally, don't like to be discriminated, but I also dislike that people feel sorry for me... And that is exactly what I enconter most of the time in Spain. Well, I must limit myself to Barcelona, Catalunya, since I still haven't had much opportunity to travel around Spain, and therefore, the Spanyards I know are mostly Catalans, and as I understand, Catalonia is not a country where people immigrated from to other countries in large numbers. Most of Spanish population that immigrated were from the poorest parts of Spain, like Galicia or Andaluzia, Murcia, Extremadura... Even Argentinians call Spanish people "gallegos" since there were so many "gallegos" (people from Galicia) who immigrated there in 50ies and 60ies. 

Maybe people from other parts of Spain think and act different, I wouldn't know. 

On the other hand, I do receive such comments when I speak about hard times spent in my country, since there are still some people who remember the post-war period in Spain (I refer the civil war!). Then I do get the comments like "Yes, I know, I remember (or "My mother remembers..." the nights I went to bed without dinner, since we didn't have money to buy food for everyone, so only father had dinner because he was working..." ( Here the distribution of the food was a little bit different in my country, but then this is another subject)...


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