# MSA: Can I ignore إن altogether and instead use إذا every time?



## 盲人瞎馬

Can I ignore إن altogether and instead use إذا every time? Will it make a difference?


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## Ali Smith

In MSA, yes. إن is rarely used to mean "if" in MSA.


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## WadiH

I use إن when I write in FuSha.


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## Ali Smith

Really? Nobody else does these days. MSA almost never uses إن. You always hear and read إذا.


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## djara

Ali Smith said:


> Really? Nobody else does these days. MSA almost never uses إن. You always hear and read إذا.


You must have إن-deaf ears and إن-blind eyes!


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## Ali Smith

When was the last time you came across إن in the sense of "if" when reading الحياة or watching الجزيرة?


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## bearded

Ali Smith said:


> the last time you came across إن in the sense of "if"...


Perhaps in the expression '' in shaa' Allah''


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## Qureshpor

bearded said:


> Perhaps in the expression '' in shaa' Allah''


This is one of the set phrases used from time immemorial!


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## Qureshpor

Ali Smith said:


> In MSA, yes. إن is rarely used to mean "if" in MSA.





djara said:


> You must have إن-deaf ears and إن-blind eyes!


This is confirmed by Tareeq Rubaye Khalaf Alfraidi in his article below (submitted for his PhD thesis in Arab and Islamic studies in 2017 at Exceter University in March 2017) on page 141. If you can't open the link, just type "Conditional Sentences in Modern Written Arabic" and this article will be somewhere at the top of your search.

https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/29279/AlfraidiT.pdf?sequence=1

He himself does not agree with this assertion and gives his own research results.



盲人瞎馬 said:


> Can I ignore إن altogether and instead use إذا every time? Will it make a difference?


I think the best thing to do is to go with the advice of mother tongue Arabic speakers as they will be the best judges how often they hear إن  and إذا and how frquently they themselves use these two words. I would suggest you use إذا in your speech and as you become proficient in the language, you'll know exactly when to use one or the other, apart from 2in shaa2 Allaah of course!

From my own readings of Arabic grammar books, it does appear that in the older language (From Classical to perhaps the 19th century), there was a distiction between إن  and إذا, the former being a purely conditional particle whereas the latter was mainly "when" for present/future situations but also slid into "if" in certain contexts. In the modern language, perhaps the "if" meaning of إن has been transferred to إذا removing the "when" meaning from it. 

I hope this helps.



Ali Smith said:


> In MSA, yes. إن is rarely used to mean "if" in MSA.


I think if you were being more precise with your words, إن is still used to mean "if" but it is used a lot less frequently than إذا in this day and age.


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## WadiH

I don't keep track of إن versus إذا when I watch TV, and TV FuSha is by definition "looser" and mixed with everyday spoken language.  All I know is that in writing I instinctively know when to use إن versus إذا.  By the way, some dialects, including my own, maintain the distinction (though إذا is traditionally replaced by إلى/لى).


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## Qureshpor

WadiH said:


> I don't keep track of إن versus إذا when I watch TV,


But now you will!


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## Qureshpor

WadiH said:


> I don't keep track of إن versus إذا when I watch TV, and TV FuSha is by definition "looser" and mixed with everyday spoken language. *All I know is that in writing I instinctively know when to use إن versus إذا*


In one of my books, there is an Arabic prose passage. The gist of it is that a man, who used to indulge in stealing and other sinful activities, became a Muslim at the hands of the Prophet (Peace be upon him). He got to know what the punishment for a thief was and he told the prophet he couldn’t abandon all his bad habits. He asked the Prophet to choose for him one of these that he could give up. The prophet asked him to promise him not to lie. The man made the pledge to the prophet and left.

فلمّا أراد الرّجل أن یسرق قال في نفسه *إن سرقتُ* و سألني عن ھذا رسول اللّه فما أقول له جواباً؟ *إذا قلتُ* *نعم* قطع یدي و* إن قلتُ لا* خنتُ العھد بالکذب۔

I think these two sentences illustrate well the difference between *إن *and* إذا*. This is my own translation based on my understanding and what is in brackets is just to add further explanation.

And when the man decided to steal, he said to himself, "*If I steal* (less likely to happen- possible) and the Prophet of God asks me about it, what am I going to say to him in reply? *If/When* *I say yes* (more likely to happen-probable), he will cut off my hand and *if I say* *no* (again less likely to happen), I have betrayed the pact with a lie.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

Personally I also noticed that إذا was often used in place of إن and sometimes even in place of لو (examples: إذا كان يجلس مثلي في الصف and وَإِذَا كَانَ الرَّسُوْلُ مَلَكاً قاَلَ النَّاسُ). So I tell myself the one who only uses إذا (in MSA) is more likely to be understood...



WadiH said:


> All I know is that in writing I instinctively know when to use إن versus إذا.


Could you give us an explanation? I have not yet found (in the grammar books written in Arabic) a clear explanation of the meaning of إن and إذا in classic Arabic and MSA. I saw several books on this subject but I find that the explanations and translations of examples are often contradictory and inappropriate*.

Could you use إذا to express a sentence meaning in english "when + verb in future tense" ?

* Example : I would translate this sentence _"If the Messenger were an angel, people would have said: What does he has to do with us?"_ using لو and not إذا.


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## HotIcyDonut

@WadiH I tried to compile a list a of subtleties in use, can you please confirm it as a native speaker that I got it right?

إن — if

إذا — if, when/whenever

حتّى إن — even if

حتّى إذا — even if, even though

وإن — even if

وإذا — even if, although

ما إن — whether if, as soon as/once (for conditions)

ما إذا — whether if, and to begin conditional sentences without resultive clauses ("if" part (protasis) without "then" part (apodosis))

إذا ما — when/whenever/if (not different from إذا)

إن can sometimes be followed by فعل مجزوم instead of فعل ماضي


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## Romeel

ْإن — if

إذا — if, when/whenever

حتّى إنْ — even if
حتّى إذا — even if, even though
+حتّى لو

ما إنْ  — whether if, as soon as/once (for conditions)


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Could you use إذا to express a sentence meaning in english "when + verb in future tense" ?


Yes, you can.

إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ If you strive, you will be successful.



Ibn Nacer said:


> Could you give us an explanation? I have not yet found (in the grammar books written in Arabic) a clear explanation of the meaning of إن and إذا in classic Arabic and MSA. I saw several books on this subject but I find that the explanations and translations of examples are often contradictory and inappropriate*.


I think you have a point. But in mind I've decided that with إن things may or may not happen whereas with إذا there is more certainty of the postulation coming to fruition. Here is when "If" meaning merges to the "When" meaning.

I hope someone will be able to provide a difinitive answer.



Ibn Nacer said:


> and وَإِذَا كَانَ الرَّسُوْلُ مَلَكاً قاَلَ النَّاسُ).





Ibn Nacer said:


> * Example : I would translate this sentence _"If the Messenger were an angel, people would have said: What does he has to do with us?"_ using لو and not إذا.


I follow your reasoning. Perhaps إذا is being used for some doctrinal rationale.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Qureshpor said:


> Yes, you can.
> 
> إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ If you strive, you will be successful.


This structure is different, we have: "if + verb in present tense + verb in future tense".

And it seems to me that this structure corresponds to the conditional sentence of type 1 (in English), this type of conditional is generally expressed with إن except in MSA where it is إذا that is often used...

But my question concerns this structure "*when + verb in future tense*".
It seems to me that it is rare ...



Qureshpor said:


> I think you have a point. But in mind I've decided that with إن things may or may not happen whereas with إذا there is more certainty of the postulation coming to fruition. Here is when "If" meaning merges to the "When" meaning.


Yes that's also what I understood ... But I noticed that there are few examples of this type (that I would translate by this structure "*when + verb in future tense*")...

But the majority of examples are translated by "*when + two verbs in present tense*" or "*verb in present tense + *_*when + verb in present tense*_".

And it seems to me that these structures correspond to the conditional sentence of type 0 (in English).


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## Romeel

Qureshpor said:


> Yes, you can.
> 
> إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ If you strive, you will be successful.


I don't want to get into the headache for the grammars and their offshoots, but I think your translation is inaccurate

If you work hard, you will succeed = إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ
If you work hard, you will be successful = إذا تجتھدُ تكون ناجحا


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## Qureshpor

Romeel said:


> I don't want to get into the headache for the grammars and their offshoots, but I think your translation is inaccurate
> 
> If you work hard, you will succeed = إذا تجتھدُ تنجحُ
> If you work hard, you will be successful = إذا تجتھدُ تكون ناجحا


Thank you @Romeel. In English, there is not much difference between "you will succedd" and "you will be successful" apart from the fact that in one we are using a verb and in the other an adjective. I just went for the adjective translation.


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> But my question concerns this structure "*when + verb in future tense*".
> It seems to me that it is rare ...


I went back to my notes. In the summary section for إذا I have..

a) For the conditional clause *almost always* in the past tense (i.e the Arabic verb is in the past tense format even though in meaning it may not be translated as a past)

b) The result clause may be in any tense or mood.

I think the highlighted words imply that the tense could be in the present tense but not future with سَ and سوفَ.



Ibn Nacer said:


> And it seems to me that this structure corresponds to the conditional sentence of type 1 (in English), this type of conditional is generally expressed with إن except in MSA where it is إذا that is often used...


Just remind me please of these Type 0, Type 1, Type 2 etc conditionals in English. 



Ibn Nacer said:


> Yes that's also what I understood ... But I noticed that there are few examples of this type (that I would translate by this structure "*when + verb in future tense*")...


Could you please clarify by an example if possible.



Ibn Nacer said:


> But the majority of examples are translated by "*when + two verbs in present tense*" or "*verb in present tense + *_*when + verb in present tense*_".


Again a clarification please, if you don't mind.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Qureshpor said:


> Just remind me please of these Type 0, Type 1, Type 2 etc conditionals in English.


I found this (source) :



> What are Conditional 0, 1, 2, and 3?​
> Some teachers and text books continue to use the older expressions conditional 0, 1, 2, and 3 to refer to four of the six conditional forms described in this tutorial. For English learners using these terms, here are links to the corresponding sections.
> 
> Conditional 0 = Present Real Conditional
> Conditional 1 = Future Real Conditional
> Conditional 2 = Present Unreal Conditional
> Conditional 3 = Past Unreal Conditional






Qureshpor said:


> Could you please clarify by an example if possible.



You have given an example in the other thread:



Qureshpor said:


> إن طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني x
> 
> إذا طلعت الشّمسُ فأتني ✓



Here are other examples:

- إذا جئت أكرمتك
- آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ
- إذا كانَ عندي وقتٌ فسوفَ أزُورُك غداً

I would translate these examples using "when + verbe in future tense" (however I learned that in english we should not conjugate the verb to the future after "when"...) But in French we use the future:

- Quand le soleil *se levera* viens à/chez moi.
- Quand tu *viendras *à/chez moi je t'*honorerai*.
- Je *viendrai *à/chez toi quand les dattes *seront *mûrs.
- Quand j'*aurai *du temps je te *rendrai *visite demain.




Qureshpor said:


> Again a clarification please, if you don't mind.


I gave a little explanation with one example (إذا دخلنا المسجد صلينا ركعتين) in the other thread :



Ibn Nacer said:


> Personally, I understand that this example corresponds to a conditional sentence of type 0. This type of sentence often expresses a habit, a rule, a law ... So in this type of sentence إذا has the meaning of "when", "whenever", "if (scientist) " and in the translation we use *verbs in the present tense *(timeless).
> 
> See this example : إذا دخلنا المسجد صلينا ركعتين



Romeel's sentence is also an example :



Romeel said:


> إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave.



Here I understand that this is a usual/general situation/habit (conditional sentence of type 0) : _When/whenever the manager leaves, they leave_ ("when + two verbs in present tense").

But if we use إن, the meaning changes: we are talking about a specific case (conditional sentence of type 1), I would then translate by "If + verb in present tense + verb in futur tense) : _If the manager leaves they will leave._

EDIT: I just realized that there may be a second possible meaning for إذا غادر المدير غادروا : _*When **the manager leaves they will leave.*_

See also : #4 and #6


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## Mahaodeh

Ali Smith said:


> Really? Nobody else does these days. MSA almost never uses إن. You always hear and read إذا.


So do I, actually a lot of people do.


Ibn Nacer said:


> So I tell myself the one who only uses إذا (in MSA) is more likely to be understood...


Actually I would say the opposite,  إن الشرطية is never used to mean anything other than if and everyone understands what it means, إذا can be used for both so it might be confusing.


Ibn Nacer said:


> Could you give us an explanation? I have not yet found (in the grammar books written in Arabic) a clear explanation of the meaning of إن and إذا in classic Arabic and MSA.


You are right, it’s confusing. I know when to use it instinctively too but I can’t explain it because the fact is they can be interchangeable sometimes but not always. I generally try to avoid إذا as much as I can because readers would often misunderstand it. Even in Classical Arabic they were sometimes interchangeable despite what some grammarians say.

What I do is use إن when I know it’s correct, and use حين or عندما or لو when I know they would give the desired meaning, this leaves very little cases where إذا is the only option.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Mahaodeh said:


> Actually I would say the opposite, إن الشرطية is never used to mean anything other than if and everyone understands what it means, إذا can be used for both so it might be confusing.


I expressed myself badly: I meant that with إذا there is less chance of making a mistake because as you say it can be used in both cases...



Mahaodeh said:


> You are right, it’s confusing.


In addition, sometimes it seems to me that certain sentences are not considered as condition in Arabic while they are considered as a condition in English...



Mahaodeh said:


> I know when to use it instinctively too but I can’t explain it because the fact is they can be interchangeable sometimes but not always.


Yes but sometimes it seems to me that the meaning changes,  I tried to explain this with the example of Romeel :



Ibn Nacer said:


> Romeel said:
> 
> 
> 
> إذا غادر المدير غادروا When the manager leaves, you leave.
> 
> 
> 
> Here I understand that this is a usual/general situation/habit (conditional sentence of type 0) : _When/whenever the manager leaves, they  leave_ ("when/whenever + two verbs in present tense").
> 
> But if we use إن, the meaning changes: we are talking about a specific case (conditional sentence of type 1), I would then translate by "If + verb in present tense + verb in futur tense) : _If the manager leaves they will leave._
Click to expand...


I just realized that there may be a second possible meaning for إذا غادر المدير غادروا : _When the manager leaves they will leave._



Mahaodeh said:


> What I do is use إن when I know it’s correct, and use حين or عندما or لو when I know they would give the desired meaning, this leaves very little cases where إذا is the only option.


Do you use حين or عندما to express "when + future" ?

How would you translate this example آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?

Personally, I would use "when + future"...  I do not know (I am not sure) if that's how we must understand the rules given in grammar books written in Arabic...But here are the reasons why I would translate like this:

I use "when" and not "If" to take into account the fact that إذا is used when you are sure that the condition will be made. I use the future to take into account that إذا is an adverb for the future ...


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## Qureshpor

Mahaodeh said:


> So do I, actually a lot of people do.





Mahaodeh said:


> Actually I would say the opposite, إن الشرطية is never used to mean anything other than if and everyone understands what it means, إذا can be used for both so it might be confusing.





Mahaodeh said:


> You are right, it’s confusing. I know when to use it instinctively too but I can’t explain it because the fact is they can be interchangeable sometimes but not always. I generally try to avoid إذا as much as I can because readers would often misunderstand it. Even in Classical Arabic they were sometimes interchangeable despite what some grammarians say.
> 
> What I do is use إن when I know it’s correct, and use حين or عندما or لو when I know they would give the desired meaning, this leaves very little cases where إذا is the only option.


Thank you @Mahaodeh for your insightful response. I am, however, somewhat surprised that your personal experience puts the usage of إذا as a last resort whereas a number of us have been saying that إن is the particle that is perhaps of least occurrence in the MSA of today.

There is a serie of videos under the title of "Five - Year Arabic Grammar Videos" in which the presenter is an American gentleman whose name I could not see. If you type on Youtube "Arabic Grammar: Forming Conditional Sentences in Arabic الشرط", you will find a 7:26 minute video by this presenter. He does not even mention إن and tells us that in MSA there are two conditional particles إذا and لو. He then moves onto the colloquial language and says that (for Levintine and Egyptian Arabic, I think) لو is the all purpose particle.


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Personally I also noticed that إذا was often used in place of إن and sometimes even in place of لو (examples: إذا كان يجلس مثلي في الصف and وَإِذَا كَانَ الرَّسُوْلُ مَلَكاً قاَلَ النَّاسُ). So I tell myself the one who only uses إذا (in MSA) is more likely to be understood...


I would agree with you about the first sentence. Yes, I too feel the sentence should begin with a لو.

As for the second sentence, if we take the meaninng of إِذَا as "If/When" and then translate it as "If/When the Messenger *is* an an angel, the people would say....", it seems appropriate to me.


Ibn Nacer said:


> I gave a little explanation with one example (إذا دخلنا المسجد صلينا ركعتين) in the other thread :


I understand this sentence as:

When(ever) we go into a mosque, we pray two rak3as.


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## WadiH

@HotIcyDonut Generally agree, but with some comments below.



HotIcyDonut said:


> @WadiH I tried to compile a list a of subtleties in use, can you please confirm it as a native speaker that I got it right?
> 
> إن — if
> 
> إذا — if, when/whenever
> 
> حتّى إن — even if
> 
> حتّى إذا — even if, even though [can also mean "when", "at such time", "until"]
> 
> وإن — even if [or "although"]
> 
> وإذا — even if, although
> 
> ما إن — whether if, as soon as/once (for conditions)
> 
> ما إذا — whether if, and to begin conditional sentences without resultive clauses ("if" part (protasis) without "then" part (apodosis)) [this is beyond my level, sorry! But I don't think you can start a sentence with ما إذا]
> 
> إذا ما — when/whenever/if (not different from إذا)
> 
> إن can sometimes be followed by فعل مجزوم instead of فعل ماضي [I think إذا can do the same]


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## Romeel

WadiH said:


> ما إذا — whether if, and to begin conditional sentences without resultive clauses ("if" part (protasis) without "then" part (apodosis)) [this is beyond my level, sorry! But I don't think you can start a sentence with ما إذا]



أتفق معك تماما

فهي ترد بعد مقدمة قصيرة مثل
لم يقرر بعد ما إذا ....

لكن *إذا ما* يمكن البدأ بها

مثل قوله تعالى

*وَإِذَا مَا أُنزِلَتْ سُورَةٌ فَمِنْهُم مَّن يَقُولُ أَيُّكُمْ زَادَتْهُ هَذِهِ إِيمَانًا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ فَزَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَانًا وَهُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ*


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Qureshpor said:


> I understand this sentence as:
> 
> When(ever) we go into a mosque, we pray two rak3as.


Yes I agree and this sentence is an example of a conditional sentence of type 0.

It seems to me that *إذا *is often used to express this type of sentence (conditional sentence of type 0) so these sentences are often translated by the structure "*when(ever)/if(scientific)  + two verbs in present tense*" or "_*verb in present tense + *_*when(ever)/if(scientific) + verb in present tense*"...



Qureshpor said:


> Thank you @Mahaodeh for your insightful response.



Yes thank you to her, I appreciate that she answered the question I had asked to WadiH,  It is important to have the opinion of a person who is native arabic-speaker...

They are very asked by us who ask a lot of questions ... lol


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## Ibn Nacer

Romeel said:


> فهي ترد بعد مقدمة قصيرة مثل
> لم يقرر بعد ما إذا ....





WadiH said:


> ما إذا — whether if, and to begin conditional sentences without resultive clauses ("if" part (protasis) without "then" part (apodosis)) [this is beyond my level, sorry! But I don't think you can start a sentence with ما إذا]


ما إذا is used to introduce/express what some call "indirect question" so I also think that it should not be found at the start of a sentence ...

I think that this use is modern, moreover, some consider that this use is not correct ...


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Yes thank you to her, I appreciate that she answered the question I had asked to @WadiH, It is important to have the opinion of a person who is native arabic-speaker...


Thank you for letting me know, @Mahaodeh is a lady. I'll be even more respectful to her now.


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> ما إذا is used to introduce/express what some call "indirect question" so I also think that it should not be found at the start of a sentence ...
> 
> I think that this use is modern, moreover, some consider that this use is not correct ...


The following sentence is found in "Written Arabic- An Approach to the basic structures" by A. F. L. Beeston (Late Professor of Arabic at Oxford) and he does not say that it is wrong in any way.

ھذا یعتمد علی ما إذا وافق الطّرفان

This depends on whether the two sides agree.


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## Ibn Nacer

Qureshpor said:


> The following sentence is found in "Written Arabic- An Approach to the basic structures" by A. F. L. Beeston (Late Professor of Arabic at Oxford) and he does not say that it is wrong in any way.


Yes that does not surprise me that these authors will not tell you that this use is incorrect (according to some) ... Their books deals with MSA ...

Some things are accepted in MSA and some authors sometimes write books concerning the uses they consider incorrect ...


Un autre livre avec des exemples (source):


>


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> The following sentence is found in "Written Arabic- An Approach to the basic structures" by A. F. L. Beeston (Late Professor of Arabic at Oxford) and he does not say that it is wrong in any way.





Qureshpor said:


> ھذا یعتمد علی ما إذا وافق الطّرفان
> 
> This depends on whether the two sides agree.


Apologies. This sentence does not come from the book and author mentioned. I've just checked his book and he has the following entry.

In this type of structure أ and ھل must be rendered by "whether".

قد سألناہ ھل یذھبون We have asked him whether they will go.

But in modern style, it is common in this structure to replace أ or ھل by إذا or في ما إذا with the following clause in the structure of a conditioning one (an idiom comparable with English use of "if" in such cases):

نشکُّ في ما إذا کانت في ھذا صعوبة We are doubtful whether there is any difficulty in this.

سنستفھم إذا کان في نیّته أن یذھب We will enquire if it is in his mind to go.


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Yes that does not surprise me that these authors will not tell you that this use is incorrect (according to some) ... Their books deals with MSA ...
> 
> Some things are accepted in MSA and some authors sometimes write books concerning the uses they consider incorrect ...
> 
> 
> Un autre livre avec des exemples (source):


I have access to the book you have presented a screen shot of. (Modern Written Arabic – Elsaid Badawi, Michel. G. Carter and Adrian Gulley). I have had the pleasure of meeting Professor Michael. G. Carter and also communicating with him. I do find this book rather overwhelming though!


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## Ibn Nacer

Qureshpor said:


> But in modern style, it is common in this structure to replace أ or ھل by إذا or في ما إذا with the following clause in the structure of a conditioning one (an idiom comparable with English use of "if" in such cases):


Yes it is common, like I said "_Some things are accepted in MSA and some authors sometimes write books concerning the uses they consider incorrect ..._".

Sometimes modern use can be interesting and sometimes I don't see the interest: if there is already a simple and effective way in classic Arabic then why invent another way?


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## Hemza

WadiH said:


> (though إذا is traditionally replaced by إلى/لى).


Exactly like in some Moroccan dialects (mainly Hilalian ones to my knowledge). I don't know for the rest of the Maghreb though.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Ibn Nacer said:


> Do you use حين or عندما to express "when + future" ?
> 
> How would you translate this example آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
> 
> Personally, I would use "when + future"... I do not know (I am not sure) if that's how we must understand the rules given in grammar books written in Arabic...But here are the reasons why I would translate like this:
> 
> I use "when" and not "If" to take into account the fact that إذا is used when you are sure that the condition will be made. I use the future to take into account that إذا is an adverb for the future ...


Does anyone have an answer? Can someone confirm or correct?

Thanks.


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## Romeel

Ibn Nacer said:


> Salut,
> 
> 
> Does anyone have an answer? Can someone confirm or correct?
> 
> 
> Do you use حين or عندما to express "when + future" ?
> 
> How would you translate this example آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
> 
> Personally, I would use "when + future"...  I do not know (I am not sure) if that's how we must understand the rules given in grammar books written in Arabic...But here are the reasons why I would translate like this:
> 
> I use "when" and not "If" to take into account the fact that إذا is used when you are sure that the condition will be made. I use the future to take into account that إذا is an adverb for the future ...


آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ 

آتيك متى ما احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ

آتيك حين يحْمَرَّ البُسْرُ

آتيك عندما يحْمَرَّ البُسْرُ

I'm not sure if this is what you want!!


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## Ibn Nacer

Thanks.
- I would like to know how you understand and translate the sentence آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
 Would you translate using a "when + future" structure ?

- Is the meaning of sentences (with إذا/حين/عندما) the same?


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## Romeel

Ibn Nacer said:


> Thanks.
> - I would like to know how you understand and translate the sentence آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
> Would you translate using a "when + future" structure ?




I'll come (to you) when dates turns red

Just in case you don't know what is بسر:
Dates goes through stages, it bears fruit in March and ripens from June until September When it is green and then changes its color to yellow or red they call it بُسر, then it ripens and it is called رطب



Ibn Nacer said:


> - Is the meaning of sentences (with إذا/حين/عندما) the same?


I think the sentences which I wrote above have the same meaning


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## Sadda7

Romeel said:


> آتيك حين *يحْمَرُّ *البُسْرُ
> 
> آتيك عندما *يحْمَرُّ *البُسْرُ


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## Ibn Nacer

Sadda7 said:


> آتيك حين *يحْمَرُّ *البُسْرُ
> آتيك عندما *يحْمَرُّ *البُسْرُ


Thanks. 
I would also like to have your opinion regarding these questions:



Ibn Nacer said:


> - I would like to know how you understand and translate the sentence آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
> Would you translate using a "when + future" structure ?
> 
> - Is the meaning of sentences (with إذا/حين/عندما) the same?


Thank you.





Romeel said:


> I'll come (to you) when dates turns red





Romeel said:


> I think the sentences which I wrote above have the same meaning


Thanks.



Romeel said:


> Just in case you don't know what is بسر:
> Dates goes through stages, it bears fruit in March and ripens from June until September When it is green and then changes its color to yellow or red they call it بُسر, then it ripens and it is called رطب


Thanks. Yes I had seen a short explanation:
آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ، والبُسْرُ لا بد أن يحمرّ *فهو التمر قبل أن يصبح رُطَباً*

But your explanation is more detailed, it's beneficial, thank you.


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## Sadda7

Ibn Nacer said:


> I would also like to have your opinion regarding these questions:





Ibn Nacer said:


> - I would like to know how you understand and translate the sentence آتيك إذا احْمَرَّ البُسْرُ ?
> Would you translate using a "when + future" structure ? *Yes*
> 
> - Is the meaning of sentences (with إذا/حين/عندما) the same? *Yes*


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## Ibn Nacer

Ok Thanks.


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