# Icelandic: Allir borgi sitt



## Alxmrphi

......... On RUV news it opened with a picture of Obama and the title "Allir borgi sitt"...

I knew from watching the news yesterday it refers to Obama closing all the tax loopholes making sure everyone pays tax.. so naturally I thought "sitt" would mean "tax", apparently not, *tax = skattur*.

I was also confused by the conjugation of að borga... as it's *allir* (nom, pl) I thought it should be* borga* (3rd person plural)

It seems to me that sitt might come from sinn, in which case it's possible that it might mean "Everyone pays their own" or something along those lines, but that doesn't explain why it's *borgi.*...

Could someone help me out with understanding this sentence?
Is it similar in another Nordic language?

Takk kærlega


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## Wilma_Sweden

I did some detective work, without knowing the language... From the Beygingarlýsing web site, I get borgi as 3rd person sing. and plural in subjunctive mood, and sitt from sinn, accusative neuter singular.

I'm left with 'Everyone should pay their own' as a possible interpretation. 

I found a similar case of this independent possessive pronoun in the phrase 'gera sitt til', i.e. to do one's part - there is no noun that the pronoun relates to, it's implicit. Independent possessives exist in Swedish, too, and in English, as in 'your place or mine?' etc.

I'm not clear why they use the verb borga rather than greiða, but I guess there is a semantic difference, perhaps abstract vs. concrete. I'll leave that to someone Icelandic to explain. 

/Wilma


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## butra

Wilma_Sweden said:


> From the Beygingarlýsing web site, I get borgi as 3rd person sing. and plural in subjunctive mood, and sitt from sinn, accusative neuter singular.
> 
> I'm left with 'Everyone should pay their own' as a possible interpretation.
> 
> I'm not clear why they use the verb borga rather than greiða, but I guess there is a semantic difference, perhaps abstract vs. concrete. I'll leave that to someone Icelandic to explain.


 


You are right. borgi is conjunctive like in Latin coniunctivus iussivus ( hortativus ) but it’s 3rd person plural because of allir.
Borga and geiða are very often interchangeable. They both mean to pay.


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## 'Islendingur

Hi, you got the translation down pat. However, what is not written, but is being implied is that "*Everybody should pay their own*".  I am not able to dig deep into grammar, so perhaps someone else will pitch in there.  Also, *að* *greiða* and  *að* *borga  *have the same exact meaning, but the former is somewhat more formal.
I tried to find this piece at RUV, but had no luck. Would have helped a little to see more context, but I do not believe the meaning could stray far from what we already have.

Þór.


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## Alxmrphi

Ahh, it seemed a bit strange as I don't think that English would ever be used like this in a news article, but I'm glad you are a detective Wilma

I am still a bit confused about this, I also checked the Beygingarlýsing website, and I only saw '*borgi*' in the *Viðtengingarháttur*, which I know as the *subjunctive*..
I tried searching for 'conjunctive' in the Icelandic dictionary and couldn't find anything, I looked up the definitions of conjunctive and subjunctive and they are different things, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to:

1) how to form it
2) when to use it


Ok.......... right it's ok, I found this:



> In grammar, the *subjunctive mood* is a verb mood typically used in dependent clauses to express wishes, commands, emotion, possibility, judgment, opinion, necessity, or statements that are contrary to fact at present. It is sometimes referred to as the *conjunctive mood,* as it often follows a conjunction. The details of subjunctive use vary from language to language.


Ok I think this might help....

*butra / Þór*, if you would interpret "*allir borgi sitt*" as "Everyone should pay their own", then how would you interpret "*allir borga sitt*", I think an explanation of the difference might really help my understanding

Thank you (both) again.



> Hi, you got the translation down pat. However, what is not written, but is being implied is that "*Everybody should pay their own*".  I am not able to dig deep into grammar, so perhaps someone else will pitch in there.  Also, *að* *greiða* and  *að* *borga  *have the same exact meaning, but the former is somewhat more formal.
> I tried to find this piece at RUV, but had no luck. Would have helped a little to see more context, but I do not believe the meaning could stray far from what we already have.


[Edit]: *Hi Þór, just seen your post, here's the link: (it's within the first 1-3 mins) 
*


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## 'Islendingur

Ok, saw it. In this newscast it is shown this way to make s-g very short. In this case they are a little later going to explain what this heading means. (I know you know this...lol). Of course it still means exactly what we already found out, but they get into more details, and the way I see it is that the president is telling the rich "we are coming to get you". (Among other things) 
As for the other, I know the difference, but having a  hard time putting it down here.  Let me think a little, maybe s-e else will help.


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## Wilma_Sweden

Alxmrphi said:


> *butra / Þór*, if you would interpret "*allir borgi sitt*" as "Everyone should pay their own", then how would you interpret "*allir borga sitt*", I think an explanation of the difference might really help my understanding


While waiting for the experts, if you change from subjunctive to indicative, you are stating a fact rather than a wish, so probably "Everybody pay (are paying) their own".

From what I understand, Italian also uses the subjunctive mood to express a wish or command - it's certainly true in Spanish - and even in English we use it: 
*Subjunctive:*
*It is imperative that* the Queen now *pay* her own taxes. (I used third person singular because the change of verb form makes it more obvious, and what we're saying is that the Queen should now pay her own taxes). 

This statement is different from
*Indicative:*
*It is widely known that* the Queen now *pays*[/is paying] her own taxes. Now we're stating a fact, that the Queen is indeed paying her taxes(*). 

/Wilma

(*) Obviously I have no idea about the tax-paying status of Her Nibs, it was just an example.


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## Alxmrphi

I see I'm just used to having things that introduce the subjunctive (in Italian) like... the verbs for to think / to believe / it is possible that / so that / it is clear that....
I've never seen it just by itself, without anything introducing it, like it appears here, of course from this way of thinking it makes sense, it's not a fact, so that makes sense why it should be used.
I can get used to thinking about it this way though!! 

We pay taxes to support her by the way, I think it's about 80p *66p* a year, or something like that.


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## polyglot_wannabe

The "should" in _everybody "should" pay their own_, is implied by the use of the subjunctive.

It would also be possible to say "_Allir eigi _(subj. pr. eiga)_ að borga_ (infinitive)_ sitt_." with the same meaning.


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## Alxmrphi

Thanks.. PW

So by the same token the following would be possible:

*Allir eigi hús* - Everybody *should own* a house
*Þeir borgi með peningum, ekki með greiðslukorti*. - They *should pay* with cash, not by credit card

I just thought the way to express this would be with *að verða*.

Thanks for letting me know I can use this way as well! 
[Afterthought] : Or would that verb be wrong?


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## butra

polyglot_wannabe said:


> It would also be possible to say "_Allir eigi _(subj. pr. eiga)_ að borga_ (infinitive)_ sitt_." with the same meaning.


 
Það er töluverður munur á setningunum allir borgi sitt og allir eigi að borga sitt. Sú fyrri er sjálfstæð aðalsetning með sögn í viðtengingarhætti svo kölluðum óskhætti þar sem látin er í ljós ósk, skipun eða hvatning. Hin seinni er ósjálfstæð aukasetning, að öllum líkindum skýringarsetning þótt annað komi til greina, þar sem viðtengingarhátturinn er annars eðlis og það er ekki hægt að skifta annarri setningunni út fyrir hina sömu merkingar.


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