# Persian: واژه های پارسی در عربی



## PersoLatin

I always thought هندسه was Arabic, I was so used to seeing it together with 'real' Arabic words like: حساب, ریاضی, and جبر. Also the Arabic construction of مهندس, which is related to it, didn't help matters. After looking it up, I was pleasantly surprised to find, هندسه is اندازه, and مهندس is an Arabised form of it (someone who 'measures')

*The question:*
Are there more words like مهندس, which are of Persian origin but have been given an Arabic makeover? Words like جوهر/بوزرجمهر/کج/فیل/میوه جات are not in this category.


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## colognial

Hi, PersoLatin. Do you mean, specifically, a word which is Persian by birth, is adopted at some point in history and altered a bit, and is later fed back into Persian as Arabic? I cannot think of any such words offhand, I have to say.


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## PersoLatin

Hi colognial,

Yes, exactly as you put it. 

You could say جواهر fits that bill, as a Persian word by birth (گوهر), has been subjected to the Arabic (مکسر) plural rule, and it's being used in Persian.

Of course, we've been subjecting Arabic words to Persian rules for a long time  but I don't think any of these have found their way back to Arabic. فهمیدن، عملکرد، هواپیما، علمی، خوشحال، چطور


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## Treaty

There are many of these words. You should search for Persian loanwords in classic Arabic (like this). Some of them were reborrowed into Persian as genuine Arabic words.


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## colognial

I can't seem to think of anything, so sorry! How about names, eg. Khosro developing into Kasra which is now accepted as a boy's name in Iran?


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## PersoLatin

Thank you Treaty - I will go through the list, it'll be interesting to find some reborrowed ones.

Hi colognial, kasrâ is definitely one of those. I could never work out how xosro changed to kasrâ though, there are no letters specific to Persian in it.


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## PersoLatin

These are from Iranica (link Treaty posted), they could be considered reborrowed into Persian:

 (رزق - روزی (رازق - روزی دهنده
خندق - (کندگ) کنده 
قبا - کبا 
ابریق - آبریز
سنج - چنگ

This is also from Iranica, looks like خسرو is not Persian after all:

The name of the Sasanian king Ḵosrow, Kesrā, is borrowed from Syriac _Kwsrw_(see A. Siddiqi,_Studien über die persischen Fremdwörter im klassischen Arabisch_, Göttingen, 1919, pp. 40, 72).


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## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> The name of the Sasanian king Ḵosrow, Kesrā, is borrowed from Syriac _Kwsrw_(see A. Siddiqi,_Studien über die persischen Fremdwörter im klassischen Arabisch_, Göttingen, 1919, pp. 40, 72).



Khosrow is Persian (well, Avestan in fact)_. _The Iranica article implies that the Arabic کسری was borrowed indirectly from Syriac, not directly from Persian.


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## colognial

Thanks, PersoLatin and Treaty. It's remarkable how in each cited case the meaning seems to have remained intact, or almost so. It's as if the Arabic language has preserved the word by freezing it in time, allowing no evolutionary process to shift and corrupt the original connection existing between the object and the word.

I wonder if we would find a similar connection between the words _gojaste _(گجسته) and _khojaste _(خجسته), were we to research them? Could the latter be an Arabicized version of the former, do you think? Of course, there's not much in the appearance of خجسته to suggest such a conversion, not to mention that in fact these two words are opposite in meaning one to the other.


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## Treaty

گجسته comes from _gizistag/wizistag _(if I'm not wrong it is cognate of گزیدن, "to harm", "to injure") while خجسته is from _hu-jastag_ (_hu _is same as خوب and _jastag _means "omen"), based on my Manichaean Persian lexicon.


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## PersoLatin

_Hi Treaty - Thank you, I'm back to where I was before seeing that reference in Iranica which stopped me dead in my tracks.

I believe the quote, in Iranica, about خسرو is misleading as it is inconsistent with the way the following words are explained. I'm more that happy to be shown where I went wrong.

fetkar _“idol” (Aram. _ptkr_ “relief, sculpture,” from Old Pers._patikara_-); _zarnīḵ_ “orpiment” (Aram. _zrnyk_, from Old Pers. *_zaranyaka_-, a Median form, beside genuine Old Pers. _daraniya_- “gold”); _dāšen_, plur. _dawā_še_n_ “gift” (Aram. _dšnʾ_, from Old Pers. *_dāšna_-, cf. Mid. Pers. _dāš(i)n_);

_It's interesting to see that خسرو and خجسته start with xo, hu which gives away their origin. _


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## colognial

Treaty said:


> گجسته comes from _gizistag/wizistag _(if I'm not wrong it is cognate of گزیدن, "to harm", "to injure") while خجسته is from _hu-jastag_ (_hu _is same as خوب and _jastag _means "omen"), based on my Manichaean Persian lexicon.



Thank you for the information, Treaty. Just so I'm clear in my mind about these words, are you telling us that خجسته and گجسته are not related by virtue of having a common suffix or main part ('جسته')?


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## Treaty

colognial said:


> Thank you for the information, Treaty. Just so I'm clear in my mind about these words, are you telling us that خجسته and گجسته are not related by virtue of having a common suffix or main part ('جسته')?



Yes. Their main parts are different: one part _goj/giz_ in گجسته versus two parts _xo/hu+ja _in خجسته). However, they may have the common suffix (ending _aste/este, _making past participle or object) if _jastag_ of خجسته _hu-jastag_ is the participle of some verb. Otherwise, there isn't even a common suffix between the two words.


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## colognial

Perfect answer. Thank you, Treaty. Incidentally, how does رای - pronounced 'raay' - fare as a candidate for a Persian word turned Arabic before assimilation into Persian? To my knowledge, raay is an old word, hence probably of Persian origin, meaning 'opinion'. Nowadays we have رأی as well, meaning both 'vote' and 'opinion'. Are these two words actually one?


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## momai

colognial said:


> Perfect answer. Thank you, Treaty. Incidentally, how does رای - pronounced 'raay' - fare as a candidate for a Persian word turned Arabic before assimilation into Persian? To my knowledge, raay is an old word, hence probably of Persian origin, meaning 'opinion'. Nowadays we have رأی as well, meaning both 'vote' and 'opinion'. Are these two words actually one?


رأي is Arabic derived from the root r-'-y (to see).I think the meaning is understood as "point of view" hence the meaning opinion .


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## PersoLatin

I believe rây (رای) is Persian & ra'y (رﭐی) is Arabic, their meanings however seem to be very similar & hence confusing, and Dehkhoda's entry is not very clear.

I'm sure رایزن) رای زن) is a Persian word which derives from rây (رای).


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> I believe rây (رای) is Persian & ra'y (رﭐی) is Arabic, their meanings however seem to be very similar & hence confusing, and Dehkhoda's entry is not very clear.
> 
> I'm sure رایزن) رای زن) is a Persian word which derives from rây (رای).


 It seems the word is from Arabic رأي (plural: آراء). Steingass: 


> A رائی _raʼy,_ in P. _rāy_ (v.n.), Seeing; thinking, judging; knowledge, wisdom; opinion, belief, view, counsel; good plea- sure;


 (In Urdu, the words are written as رائے زن، رائے زنی and in the recent thread Etymology of طے it is being discussed why the spelling of such words changed into طَے، شےء، قَے، مَے، وغیرہ. Platts entery: here.)


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## Treaty

I couldn't find any Aramaic or Akkadian cognate for Arabic _ra'y_ in the online Aramaic (HUC) and Akkadian (Sureth) dictionaries. Therefore, I also wonder if the Arabic root ر ء ی (to see) is genuinely Arabic.


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## momai

Treaty said:


> I couldn't find any Aramaic or Akkadian cognate for Arabic _ra'y_ in the online Aramaic (HUC) and Akkadian (Sureth) dictionaries. Therefore, I also wonder if the Arabic root ر ء ی (to see) is genuinely Arabic.


Next time Herbrew dictionaries first  "לראות" to see


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## PersoLatin

These are some beyts by Ferdôsi, (more from other poets) given as examples of use of رای زن and رای, on Dehxodâ, here and here:

*رای زن:*
شدند اندر آن موبدان انجمن
ز هر در پژوهنده و رای زن

چو شاه یتیمان و سرو یمن
به پیشش سپاه اندرون رای زن

به تنها تن خویش بی انجمن
نه دستور بد پیش و نه رای زن

وز آن پس جوان و خردمند زن
به آرام بنشست با رای زن

سوی او شدند آن بزرگ انجمن
بر آنم که او بودشان رای زن

شکوه او به امارت اگر درآرد سر
بُوَدْش رایزن و کاردار از آتش و آب

وگر سستی آرد بکار اندرون
نخواند ورا رای زن رهنمون

*رای:*
که جز کشتن و خواری و درد و رنج
ز کهتر نهان کردن رای و گنج

به آواز گفتند ما کهتریم
ز رای و ز فرمان تو نگذریم

کنون شهر ایران سرای تو است
مرا ره نماینده رای تو است

Could this mean, Ferdôsi, repeatedly used this Arabic word, in order to make his poetry rhyme?


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## Treaty

Many thanks. I can't read Hebrew script. That's why I didn't search it.


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## PersoLatin

Found this article titled: 
*رای و رأی ([New Persian] rāy and [Arabic] ra’y)* here.
Abstract: In spite of what may come to mind, New Persian *رای *is not from Arabic *رأی* ......



Also the following here:
*رای
فرهنگ لغت عمید*
(اسم) [پهلوی: rāy] [قدیمی]
[rāy]
۱. اندیشه؛ فکر.
۲. عقل.
۳. عقیده.
۴. تدبیر.
۵. عزم.


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## colognial

I am able to breathe again! Thanks, PersoLatin. The two words are close in sound and meaning only by accident. Good! Now I can have my vote and think about it too!


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## PersoLatin

I don't know when the idea of 'vote & voting' was first introduced into Persian, (not 2500 years ago, by all accounts!) but whenever it was, it is likely that rây - رای would have been picked, as the best choice.

After all, in Arabic, رأی isn't used in the context of vote/voting/ballot/voter/polling station. According to 'Google Translate' تصویت، انتخب، اقتراع etc., are the words in use, for that purpose.


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## Treaty

رأی is used in Arabic for the context of voting. It means both the collective result of the poll (i.e. public opinion) and the content of individual options, but (seemingly) not the act or means of voting. The Persian usage of رأی "vote" is very likely to have come from the Arabic word, especially in the context of رأی الجمهور (the majority's opinion or collective opinion). This expression is quite old in فقه. The current usage of رأی as "vote" is probably a 1900s invention (the evolution of "vote", from "to vow" to "to select" itself is not very old).


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## PersoLatin

Hi Treaty,

We can safely say, that the Arabic رأی has no links with the act of voting (or election), but it has, what we can call, an association with it, as in: 'a *proposal* that is made formally at a meeting and then decided on by *voting*' (from your link) plus others you mentioned in the above post.

But is this 'association' enough for us to mistranslate رأی & use it for: رأی من (my vote) , او رأی داد (she voted), رأی گیری (election)? Are we saying, as there was no Persian equivalent for رأی, that, this 'association' was accepted by our scholars, as a good enough reason for using it?

It is interesting that the Greeks who are credited with inventing the concept of democracy, don't have a word for vote as a concept. Most modern words associated with 'vote', are derived from Greek for 'pebble', which was used for casting & counting of votes, like a ballot paper.


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## Treaty

The Arabic رأی has a strong link to voting process. When I said it doesn't mean the "act of voting", I meant there is no verb morphed out of it. Nevertheless, رأی گیری is in fact a calque of Arabic أخذ الرأي with the same meaning. 

The main meaning of رأی is "opinion", especially a personal opinion with a prescriptive or decisive purpose. When you vote, you give (دادن) your opinion (رأی). This association is more than enough. The only difference between the Persian and Arabic usage of رأی is that the Persians more often tend to use this word for the concrete instance of the opinion (i.e., the ballot) rather than the opinion itself. It is common that a borrowing language uses only an instance of an abstract word in the original language (a good example is عکس that means "reflection" in Arabic, but very rarely "photo". Another example is ضبط which is not used for "cassette recorder/player" in Arabic, unlike in Persian).

P.S. I'm not aware if the Greek used pebbles at all. Democracy in Greece was not necessary based on votes but often based on random selection of ordinary citizens to hold civil offices (so that the people ran the office). In the Greek parliament (_ekklesia_) voting was done by raising hands. The word "ballot" itself comes ultimately from Latin for "ball". Small balls were used in Vatican (or other Catholic main churches) to select the pope. This was probably the only formal voting system in the entire medieval Europe and so gave its name to later voting conventions.


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## PersoLatin

Hi Treaty,

Thank you for your detailed explanation.



> It is common that a borrowing language uses only an instance of an abstract word in the original language (a good example is عکس that means "reflection" in Arabic, but very rarely "photo". Another example is ضبط which is not used for "cassette recorder/player" in Arabic, unlike in Persian).



I agree with the above & your examples illustrate the point, very well. There are many words in English (& other languages too) that have entered via the same route. (interesting that from the concept of عکس & reflection, someone has made up عکاس-photographer)

However in the case of ra'y-*رأی*, the existence of rây-*رای*, adds a dimension that’s missing in the above examples, and it's like the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.

There is a good case for rây-*رای *to be the source for vote, however, because of; your elaborations, also its close meaning and spelling to ra'y-*رأی*, and the fact that the scholars of the time, would have been religious and familiar to the concept (‏فقه), therefore more inclined to choose ra'y-*رأی*, the case for rây-*رای*, becomes weaker, but one never knows for sure.


Greek word for vote (btw - the reference to Greek for 'vote', was not used to support or dismiss any of the points above)
ψήφος *psí̱fos
psí̱fos*       Smooth pebble, Vote
*psi̱fo*fóros  Voter
*psi̱fo*foría  Voting/Ballot
*psi̱fo*déltio Ballot paper
ypo*psí̱fios* Candidate

See reference here.
_since in the ancient courts of justice the accused were condemned by black pebbles and acquitted by white…_


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## PersoLatin

Just remembered these expressions:  
رایش را زدم - I changed his mind, or رایم را زد - She changed my mind

As far as I know, these are currently pronounced as :  'rayaš râ zadam' and 'rayam râ zad' but I believe rây in this sense, is the same as, in the poetry samples by Ferdôsi (a previous post on this thread) & should therefore be pronounced as: 'râyaš râ zadam' and 'râyam râ zad'.


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## Treaty

PersoLatin said:


> Greek word for vote (btw - the reference to Greek for 'vote', was not used to support or dismiss any of the points above)



Thanks for this information



PersoLatin said:


> As far as I know, these are currently pronounced as :  'rayaš râ zadam' and 'rayam râ zad' but I believe rây in this sense, is the same as, in the poetry samples by Ferdôsi (a previous post on this thread) & should therefore be pronounced as: 'râyaš râ zadam' and 'râyam râ zad'.



I disagree. First رأی کسی را زدن is almost opposite to رای زدن. One is to changing one's mind and the other is making one's mind or participating in a decision. In other word, they point to two opposite meaning of زدن: to outdo and to do. There is no historic usage of رأی کسی را زدن and so it is safe to assume (as in your link in post #22) that it is a recently-made idiom out of رأی. 

P.S. the discussion about رای and رأی has gone off-topic because we already know it is not a reborrowed word. It would be nice to make a new thread just for discussing these two. I'm going to ask a moderator to help us.


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## PersoLatin

I agree with you on creating a new threat for rây and ra'y. I will reply on the new thread, when it happens.


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