# Your Country's Education System



## SweetMommaSue

Hello Forer@s,

I am very interested in the way other countries school their people. Here in the States, for instance, what used to be called nursery school (when I was young) for 3 and 4 yr. olds is now called Preschool (3 yr olds) and Pre-K (4 yr. olds) and is not mandatory. Kindergarten is for 5 yrs. and above and is mandatory in some states, but not in others. From 1st grade to 5th grade is considered elementary school and is mandatory in all states. From 6th to 8th grades is middle school and is also mandatory in all states. From 9th to 12th grades is high school and is mandatory until one reaches the age of 16 yrs. There is also vocational-technical school, available beginning at different grades depending on the state you live in, which you attend at the same time as your regular high school (the school day is split in half). After high school one can attend technical institutes (Associates degrees and certificates of course completion are available), junior colleges (2 yr. institutions which award Associate's degrees, Certificates of course completion and Letters of Recognition) or 4 yr. colleges (or universities where you can earn Associate's, Bachelor's and Master's degrees as well as the aforementioned Certificates and Letters). 

There are public and private schools available in every state for those grades that are mandatory. So, there are no "public" preschools for the general public since preschools are not mandatory. There are many private ones, and there are the HeadStart programs (free to the single working parents, low-income homes). Since Kindergarten is mandatory here in Maryland, there are public school Kindergartens.

I'd love to hear from different States here in the US and from all the different countries!

Smiles, 
Sweet Momma Sue


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## la reine victoria

Hi Sweet Momma Sue,

A very interesting new thread!  I'll go through the system here in the UK.

First of all we have the 'little ones' and the need to integrate them with their peers.  This is especially beneficial for the child with no siblings.  It is not mandatory, usually private, and was called 'Play Group' but I think the term 'pre-school' is becoming more fashionable.  Children from age 2 are admitted.  At one time a child would not be allowed entry until it was potty trained but now there are plentiful supplies of 'Huggies' available.  The tots have great fun 'being creative' with paint, water, sand - all those nice things you can make a mess with and not be scolded by Mum.
Stories are read, songs sung and they learn to write their name.  They also become familiar with the basic numbers 1-10 and learn the alphabet using 'The Alphabet Song'.

Formal education begins in the term of the year nearest to the child's 5th birthday.  This school is called Infants' School.

At age 7 the children move on to Junior School and stay until they are 11 years old.

At age 11 they then go on to Middle School and it is mandatory that they remain there until age 16.  

Those wishing to further their education then proceed to either 6th Form College (academics) or Technical College (to learn a trade).

The academics may then go on to University and, depending on their field of study, will stay for ...... years until they graduate.

We don't use the word 'grade'.  We say 'year'.  In the past the word 'form' was used, also for 'Middle School' we used 'Secondary School'.  In my time at school we were obliged to take an exam at the end of Junior School.  This was known as 'sitting your 11 plus' and comprised four sections.  Intelligence Test (Mensa type puzles), Mathematics, English Grammar and Comprehension, Written Essay on a given choice of topic.  I remember (and  it's a long time ago) choosing 'An Old Pair of Slippers Tells Its Story'.

Designed to grade the pupils according to ability, the bright ones went to Grammar School, the middlings to Central School and the less able to Secondary Modern School.  This caused great social division and I was frequently mocked by my peers as I headed off to Grammar School in my smart (bottle green) uniform, proudly wearing my blazer with embroidered school badge on the top pocket.  I was called 'Stuck up snob' or 'Clever clogs' or 'Cocky dick'  but totally ignored the insults, knowing they stemmed from jealousy.

Under the 1968 Education Act, the tripartite system was done away with and all schools became known as Comprehensive School.  This was supposed to remove the social stigma and ensure 'equal opportunity for all'.  However, the plan was a disaster and standards naturally fell - the bright pupils being held back by the attention given to the less able.

Today, education in the UK is rapidly becoming our bete noire as we see children leaving school totally illiterate and innumerate.  'Discipline' is a stranger, pupils run riot, teachers are sworn at, grammatical and spelling errors are left uncorrected.  I hasten to add this is not true of all schools.  Some schools have performed so badly though that the government has had to dismiss all the staff and bring in a special 'crack team' to turn the school around.

My own two sons were educated at what we call 'Public School' (US Private School).  Having seen the standard of education they received I can say, with all honesty, that my Grammar School education was on a par with that.

I forgot to say that in 1968 some well established Grammar Schools defied the government and are still in existence.  Places there are highly sought after - parents will even move house to get into the catchment area of a Grammar School.  Entrance is by a very stiff examination and personal interview, such is the overwhelming demand for a place.

How hollow were Tony Blair's words at his first election victory speech - 'Education, education, education!'


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## cirrus

Just to expand a little on English pre school.  I work in this sector.  It depends on when you are.  Pre school can take the form of nurseries or playgroups. These can be either private or public.  You will often find more state provision in areas with higher levels of deprivation.  

Across the UK there has been considerable investment in early years education as a whole since 1997. This is called surestart.  You can find any amount of info about this at www.surestart.gov.uk 

It aims to maximise input for young children (under 4) and their parents.  The logic underlying this is that if you can sort out the children's health and get them ready for education the investment pays off hugely - pretty much building on the ideas piloted by Headstart in the starts.  

There is a big push to improve both the amount and quality of childcare available.  This is also combined with a big drive to increase parental employability - the best way to get out of poverty is to get off benefits.


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## SweetMommaSue

Thank you very much for your inputs, La Reine Victoria and Cirrus!

I´m also curious as to how our college degrees relate to your university degrees. Do our Associate´s degrees have a counterpart in the U.K.?

What are the equivalents of our Bachelor´s, Master´s and Ph.D.s over there?

Eagerly waiting,
Sweet Momma Sue


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## la reine victoria

Thank you for the interesting link, Cirrus.  I enjoyed reading Prof. Winston's interview.

I don't know how long you have worked in the pre-school sector but would like to know, briefly, the changes you have seen.  Are things improving?  Have parental attitudes changed?  Of course, it depends where you are working since social groups are so diverse.

Please be non-political (even though I was, ever so slightly) otherwise we may be led off topic!

Thanks.

LRV


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## la reine victoria

SweetMommaSue said:
			
		

> Thank you very much for your inputs, La Reine Victoria and Cirrus!
> 
> I´m also curious as to how our college degrees relate to your university degrees. Do our Associate´s degrees have a counterpart in the U.K.?
> 
> What are the equivalents of our Bachelor´s, Master´s and Ph.D.s over there?
> 
> Eagerly waiting,
> Sweet Momma Sue


 
Hi Sweet Momma Sue,

Our university degrees equate with those of the USA. We have Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.D.s.  To obtain the latter, Oxford University requires the graduate to write a 100,000 word thesis on which he/she is then orally examined. Is it the same in the USA for a Ph.D?

Please let us know if you have any major problems within your schools, such as those I mentioned. Discipline, low quality teaching staff, etc. How great is the cooperation between parents and schools?

Thanks again for introducing this interesting thread. As one who studies child psychology it is very meaningful to me.

Interestedly awaiting,
LRV


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## SweetMommaSue

I wish I could speak on the requirements needed to earn the Ph.D. here in the USA. I know that years ago one could have a certain number of years to complete research on and publish a thesis which would either earn your doctorate or contribute to it. I have no idea what the requirements are now. I do hope that others will join in on this thread and educate us all in this matter. Even Masters' programs have changed. Their are some Masters' degrees earnable strictly through the taking of courses and writing research papers; whereas before projects were sometimes required (as in management projects for Masters degrees in Management). 

Now with regard to some of the problems in education systems, a thread was started here about this topic, but it ended up focusing on the problems in the  schools in the USA.

Other threads on education are here , here and here . I had no idea we all were so concerned with education! This being the case, and we being such a small sampling of the world population, we ought to be able to invoke some sort of change in our respective countries, eh? 

Make sure you have some time on your hands. Some of these threads are a bit lengthy.


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## timebomb

In Singapore, children attend kindergarden classes at age 4.  At age 6, they go to public schools where they stay there for 6 years, from Primary 1 to Primary 6.
There's a lot of competition for the better schools.  Parents are known to move house to be nearer them.  Enrolment is based on a list of priorities.  If the child already has a sibling in the same school, he or she gets top priority.  If the school is within 1 kilometre radius distance from your home, that's also a priority but it's lower than the "sibling" one.  After all the places have been taken up by priority cases, the remaining ones go on to ballot.  Parents are known to shriek for joy or cry in despair during balloting.

Between Primary 1 to 6, children are taught only 4 subjects, namely, English, a second language (often Chinese), Science and Mathematics.

At Primary 3, all children are asked to take a test to determine if they are gifted.  Those who do well (the top 5%) are transferred to special schools where the classes are smaller and the syllabus wider.  The transfer is not compulsory.  Parents can choose to let their child remain in their original school but that rarely happens.

At Primary 4, all children are streamed.  The bright ones go to EM1 classes where they take English and a second language (often Chinese) as first language subjects.  The majority goes to EM2 classes where they take English as a first language subject.  They still have to do a second language but it's taken as a second language subject.  In other words, it's not as tough.  The bottom 5% or so who do badly in Primary 4 go to EM3 classes where they do only one language subject, English.  

At Primary 6, all children sit for an examination called the PSLE (Primary School Leaving Examinations).  If they do well, they get to pick from the best secondary schools in Singapore.  In other words, which secondary school a child goes to depends entirely on merit.  

Secondary school consists of 4 years, from Sec 1 to Sec 4.  At the end of Sec 4, they sit for their O levels.  If they do well, they can choose to go on to college where 2 years later, they sit for their A levels.  After the O levels, some go on to polytechnics where they attend diploma courses.  

In Singapore, the government does not like the term "school dropouts" so they are known as "premature school leavers".  Such students often end up at vocational institutes known as ITE's which stands for Institute of Technical Education.  But often, Singaporeans say it stands for "It's The End" :lol:

I'm not certain about this but it seems like our school text books are often used by the schools of other countries.  I've heard of at least 2 schools in the United States that switched their Mathematics text books to the ones from Singapore.  Seems like our text books are very good.


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## SweetMommaSue

Thank you for your contribution, Timebomb! That is very interesting: your country focuses on being at least bilingual and emphasizes math and science. 
I imagine that Chinese is a very difficult second language to learn. There must be a special system to learn the symbols--to me they seem sooooo complicated! I imagine one can also study Malay (is that the name of the language of Malaysia?) since there is a high population of Malaysian people there, too? 

I had the great fortune to be able to visit Singapore twice! It is a friendly and beautiful place! I intend to visit there again one day.

So, O levels would be for 17 and 18 yr. olds, college for 19 and 20 yr. olds and A levels for 20+ years?  

Do you earn degrees like our Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.Ds?

Do you have Universities?


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## marinax

Here in the States, for instance, what used to be called nursery school (when I was young) for 3 and 4 yr. olds is now called Preschool (3 yr olds) and Pre-K (4 yr. olds) and is not mandatory. 
here is called "jardin maternal" or "pre-jardin", also not mandatory and is for kids from 3 months old and up!
Kindergarten is for 5 yrs. and above and is mandatory in some states, but not in others. 
same. its named "jardin de infantes"
From 1st grade to 5th grade is considered elementary school and is mandatory in all states. From 6th to 8th grades is middle school and is also mandatory in all states. 
we have to go to "elementary" (escuela primaria) from 6 until 13 years old. is mandatory.
From 9th to 12th grades is high school and is mandatory until one reaches the age of 16 yrs. 
high school (escuela secundaria) goes until 5th grade and you leave being 18 years old. (some technical schools last until 6th grade). is nowadays mandatory, but it wasn't always like that.
After high school one can attend technical institutes (Associates degrees and certificates of course completion are available), junior colleges (2 yr. institutions which award Associate's degrees, Certificates of course completion and Letters of Recognition) or 4 yr. colleges (or universities where you can earn Associate's, Bachelor's and Master's degrees as well as the aforementioned Certificates and Letters). 
after high school we go strait to university. you could go to institutions which have degrees of 3, 4, 5 or 6 years long. (tecnicaturas, licenciaturas, doctorados, profesorados)

There are public and private schools available in every state for those grades that are mandatory. So, there are no "public" preschools for the general public since preschools are not mandatory. 
we do have public and private options of EVERY level of education.


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## Like an Angel

marinax said:
			
		

> here is called "jardin maternal" or "pre-jardin", also not mandatory and is for kids from 3 months old and up!


 
And, at least when I was young, they are also called "guarderías"


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## Outsider

I have rather strong feelings about education, having worked in a public school for a while, but I'm not that well informed about the burocratic details of our education system. They keep being changed, anyway...  Still, I think I can give you a rough idea of it.

There are preschools. Not having any children of my own and not having gone to a preschool myself, I'm afraid I don't know much about them. It used to be only the upper middle class who sent their children to preschool, but there's been a great expansion of preschooling in the last decade and a half or so, because today both parents have a job, in most families.

Mandatory education starts at the age of 7, and consists of 12 years. It used to be made up of 4 years of _ensino primário_ followed by 5 years of _2.º e 3.º ciclos do ensino básico_, and then 3 years of _ensino secundário_. Successive goverments have made an effort to merge the _2.º ciclo_ with the _ensino primário_ (the old name was already suggestive). That was a fixed idea of our Education gurus, for some reason. So now the first 6 years are grouped into an _ensino básico_ and the last 6 years into an _ensino secundário_, each made up of three 2-year _ciclos_. In spite of this cosmetic change, the teachers, schools, and school organization (number and nature of subjects, number of teachers, teacher formation, school hours, evaluation), are still mostly according to the old system of 4 + 5 + 3 years, as far as I know. The majority of pupils attend public schools throughout these years, but there are also private schools, including Catholic _colégios_, for those who can afford them.

After that, you can go to a university or an _instituto politécnico_, for higher education. Most graduate courses (is this the right word?) are made up of 4, some 5 years. If you wish to continue your education further, there are 2 or 3-year _mestrados_ (not exactly equivalent to a master's degree, I hear), and PhDs. However, the E.U. devised a new regulation called the Bologna Protocol a few years ago, which is about to change all of this. Graduations will be made up of 3 + 2 years, with the last 2 years optional. I guess we must all be getting smarter.  There are both public and private universities, including the well renouned Universidade Católica.


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## luis masci

SweetMommaSue said:
			
		

> Here in the States, for instance, what used to be called nursery school (when I was young) for 3 and 4 yr. olds is now called Preschool (3 yr olds) and Pre-K (4 yr. olds) and is not mandatory. Kindergarten is for 5 yrs. and above and is mandatory in some states, but not in others.


 
In Argentina it’s playing in similar way until this point. Afterward you have primary school from 1st  grade to 6th grade; then secondary school from 1st  year to 5th or 6th year year, that depends on the specialty and school that you choose  (that is here in the province of Córdoba, in Buenos Aires and other provinces it’s a bit different).
Also there are public and private school. Privates run from mediocre to bad while public ones run from bad to worst. 




			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Today, education in the UK is rapidly becoming our bete noire as we see children leaving school totally illiterate and innumerate. 'Discipline' is a stranger, pupils run riot, teachers are sworn at, grammatical and spelling errors are left uncorrected. I hasten to add this is not true of all schools. Some schools have performed so badly though that the government has had to dismiss all the staff and bring in a special 'crack team' to turn the school around.



Victoria, are you talking about some schools in my country by any chance???
I know you don’t, but what you are telling, falls like a ring on the finger with our local situation  in this field.



​


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## Chaska Ñawi

a los argentinos:

It's interesting to hear the very different perspectives.  I was fascinated to read in November about the two teachers who were attacked by their students' mothers .... because they said that the children suffered from conduct disorders.  It sounded like an inner city school in Toronto.  And I knew that the Argentine schools had some problems, but never heard things described in such depressing terms.  (I have a close friend in Fcio. Varela, and I thought that the educational problems were especially bad there because so many other things seem to be in Varela.  This is interesting to me, because I hope to bring his daughter to study here in a couple of years.)

To the topic in more general terms:

Here school is mandatory from 7 years to 16, although the Ontario government's proposing mandatory schooling until 18 (tied to a law that you can't get a driver's licence unless you're in school).

You have junior kindergarten (you must turn 4 years old by the December of the year you start), SK, and Grades 1 - 12.  Some children stay in one school for JD to Grade 8 (elementary); some go to "junior high" for Grade 6-8.

You can get a technician's papers at a community college or do other non-degree programs; do a 3-year Bachelor's or a 4-year Bachelors (Honours) at university; and then a Masters and doctorate.  If you're a teacher, you complete a 4-year undergrad degree and then a year at a faculty of education; or you can do all 4 years concurrently.


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## timebomb

SweetMommaSue said:
			
		

> I imagine that Chinese is a very difficult second language to learn. There must be a special system to learn the symbols--to me they seem sooooo complicated! I imagine one can also study Malay (is that the name of the language of Malaysia?) since there is a high population of Malaysian people there, too?



Chinese isn't too difficult if it's the mother tongue, SweetMommaSue.  In Singapore, the population is mainly Chinese, about 65%.  The Malays make up the other majority, about 20%.  All children learn English as the first language and usually, their mother tongue as the second.  So Chinese will pick Chinese as the second language and Malays pick Malay.

It may sound strange to you but generally, children have difficulties with their own mother tongues.  They usually have less problems with English!!  In fact, I know of a few Chinese friends who speak no Chinese at all but only English.  Why is this so, you ask?

I think I have to blame it all on you Americans :lol:.  But seriously, American culture is all-powerful.  Young people see it as hip and cool to speak English, less so for their own mother tongue.  Most Chinese give themselves an English name as Chinese names aren't cool enough for them.  Quite a few don't even know how to use chopsticks!!  

The sad thing is people forget their heritage easily.  They simply do what's cool.  I'm one of the few Chinese Singaporeans who refuse to adopt an English name or give one to my children.  My daughters, however, gave themselves English names when they became teenagers.  I can't say I blame them as peer pressure to do so is high.  

In Singapore, the people lament that the education system is very stressful.  They claim examinations are too tough and streaming is unfair.  When their children fail to make it to the better classes like EM1 or EM2, they blame the system.  

What I think is true, however, is that our education system produces students who are very good at scoring high marks at examinations but poor in creativity.  In other words, they are very bright academically but not street-smart enough.  The government is aware of this and tinkers with the system often.  Every year, there are new rules and lazy parents like me find it hard to follow them.

Most students have tuition classes outside school hours.  It's a bloody rat race, that's for sure.  We have a few universities but places are limited so only the best and brightest make it to tertiary education.  



> I had the great fortune to be able to visit Singapore twice! It is a friendly and beautiful place! I intend to visit there again one day.


I think Singapore is a great country too but many of my fellow countrymen see otherwise.  We're also known as the nation for having the highest number of migrators.  Every year, many leave.  Australia and Canada are popular destinations.  For every citizen that emigrates however, there are just as many, if not more, who want to be Singaporeans.  We're in a state of constant flux.  



> So, O levels would be for 17 and 18 yr. olds, college for 19 and 20 yr. olds and A levels for 20+ years?


That's almost right.  Usually, if one is not retained in his level, he takes his O levels when he reaches the age of 16.  A levels would be at 18.  Schools are ranked annually when the O level results come out.  This is often cited as another stress factor.  Schools are conscious of the ranking system so in order to be ranked high, they forbid students who do poorly in Secondary 3 to go on to Secondary 4 to take the O levels.  Such students repeat Secondary 3 and if their results are still not good enough, they are sometimes expelled from their schools.  My daughter was almost retained at Sec 3.  I had to report to her school where I was asked by the principal to sign a promissory note to declare that I will ensure my daughter revises her lessons and study hard.  If I refuse, they will make my daughter repeat Sec 3.  



> Do you earn degrees like our Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.Ds?


Yes, we do.  But unfortunately, a local degree is seen as less valuable than an overseas one.  So those who can afford it send their children to universities in other countries.  It's kind of unfair because it's actually harder to obtain a local degree.  The system here is tough and quite a few don't make it.  Whereas I have never heard of any Singaporean student failing to obtain a degree in a foreign university.  My impression is that in foreign universities, it's mostly fun and games whereas over here, it's hitting the books all the time.  My impression is probably wrong, of course, as I hardly travel.


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## te gato

the education system here in Calgary is almost like yours:
We have Pre-school for the ones that can afford it..ages 3 and 4..
Kindergarden is age 5 and is mostly done for half a day and is required..
Then it goes to Elememtary..grades 1 to 6...
Then Junior high school..grades 7 to 9...
Then high school..grades 10 to 12...
Then University or College where our degrees are the same as yours..

We have both Public (non-Catholic) and Separate (Catholic) schools..
and Private schools..(if one can afford them..about $5,000 a semester and there are 2 semesters per year)..
tg


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## Liambeiwai

Here in China, I mean most parts of China, we educate our children in this way: 
     Kindergarten(age 2-6) You don't have to go to a kindergarten
     Primary School(age 6-12) You need to go to primary school when you are 6 or 7 years old, usually from Grade 1-Grade6, in some parts of China, Grade1-Grade5
     Junior High(age 12-15) from Junior Grade 1-3(In some parts, 1-4)
     Primary School and Junior High are in the compulsory education period. At the age of 15, you will have to take provincial exams to enroll in a high school. Only qualified can go to the high school.(Examination subjects: Chinese, maths, English, science(physics and chemistry),politics)
     High School(age 15-18)from Senior Grade 1-3
     At the age of 18, usually students need to take national exams to enroll in a college or university(Examination subjects: Chinese, maths, English, arts or science) I mean, if you choose to study humanities, you need to choose arts. Else, science.
     In university period, it's usually the same as the other country's system.


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## cirrus

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I don't know how long you have worked in the pre-school sector but would like to know, briefly, the changes you have seen. Are things improving? Have parental attitudes changed? Of course, it depends where you are working since social groups are so diverse.
> 
> Please be non-political (even though I was, ever so slightly) otherwise we may be led off topic!


 
It's too early to say.  The experiment has only been running for less than five years and I have only been working in this field since 2001.  The government keeps setting more and more targets and then asking us what progress we have made on them when we haven't set anything up to be able to evaluate them.  When you work in inner city London something like 30 per cent of people move in any one year so actually keeping tabs on progress can be quite difficult.

Where there has been a big shift is in terms of the attitude of professionals.  The boundaries between workers in health, social work and nurseries are becoming much more fluid and this is starting to have real pay offs in terms of child protection.  

It is hard not to be political about the programme because Labour is likely to pin a lot of hopes on this programme paying off because for some things it is the biggest community development exercise in Britain in the last forty odd years. The pressure to deliver, not to mention provide touchy feely photo opportunities is ever present.


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## marinax

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> a los argentinos:
> 
> It's interesting to hear the very different perspectives. I was fascinated to read in November about the two teachers who were attacked by their students' mothers .... because they said that the children suffered from conduct disorders. It sounded like an inner city school in Toronto. And I knew that the Argentine schools had some problems, but never heard things described in such depressing terms. (I have a close friend in Fcio. Varela, and I thought that the educational problems were especially bad there because so many other things seem to be in Varela. This is interesting to me, because I hope to bring his daughter to study here in a couple of years.)


 
as you felt with our bad news, we felt with the ones like "columbine" in the states... until it happened here a while ago.
its terrible. i remember in my days of choosing a high school, my parents had some good choices... nowadays they are all quite bad.
even catholic schools. nothings is as good as it is supposed to be (not even private education). it all depends on you, and your parents (to fill the gaps you have from school).
and forget about learning skills (languages, crafts, etc). my school (i attended elementary and high school at the same place) was founded by one of our former presidents (and a teacher himself) and run by an American teacher (Miss Mary O'Graham) brought by him back in the 1800's. you were supposed to leave with a "teachers degree" (if that exists)... needless to say you dont get that diploma since the 1900's.
things get worse as you get far from Buenos Aires (Florencio Varela, for example).
but... (luckly, there is a "but"...) i believe we have some good things. we still study a lot of world history, world geography, and a wide variety of things besides those refering solely to our country. and i think that gives our kids and advantage...


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## geve

Here comes the French input  :
I've left the education system "some time ago", so corrections/clarifications are welcome  

In France one must go to school from 6 to 16. There are both public and private schools.

 It all starts with the *PRIMAIRE *(or _l'école primaire_) in 3 years : 
First, _*la maternelle*_, from 3 to 6 yo.
_- petite section, _
_- moyenne section, _
_- grande section_

Then _*l'école élémentaire*_ from 6 to 10
_- CP / Cours préparatoire_
_- CE1 / Cours élémentaire 1_
_- CE2 / Cours élémentaire 2_ _CM1 / Cours moyen 1_
_- CM2 / Cours moyen 1_

 Then le *SECONDAIRE *: This is when you start having separate teachers for each subject
_*le*_ _*collège*_
_- 6ème_
_- 5ème_
_- 4ème_ (when I was at school this was when you started learning a 2nd foreing language, the most common ones being German or Spain, or English if you hadn't chose it as your first foreign language)
_- 3ème (_at the end of which you take an exam called le _Brevet des Collèges. _It used to be the most widespread diploma but now that most people continue school until the _Bac_, it is not as important)

_*le lycée*_
_- 2nde _: at the end of the year, you choose a specialization : Sciences (S), Economics and Sociology (ES), Litterature (L), or a professional specialization. Now I've had a look at wikipedia on the matter and it seems that the specialization now takes place at the end of 3ème - can someone confirm that ?
_- 1ère_
_- Terminale_
And you take the exam _le Bac_ (short for _le Baccalauréat_)

 And then *L'ENSEIGNEMENT SUPERIEUR* :
_*Le BTS*_ (_Brevet de technicien supérieur_) is a professional diploma in 2 years, where you're taught the practical skills required in a job

_*Les universités*_ : are free (almost : you must pay a small amount to cover some administration costs)
As per diplomas, a new system is currently being implemented to fit European harmonization
- before : DEUG (Diplôme d'Etudes Universitaires Générales) after 2 years of university, then a "licence" after 3 years, and a "maîtrise" after 4 years ; and then, a DESS (Diplôme d'Etudes Supérieures Spécialisées) or a DEA (Diplôme d'Etudes Approfondies) for longer studies
- now : 3 degrees : Licence (3 years), Master (5 years), Doctorat (8 years)

*Les grandes écoles, les écoles de commerce, les écoles d'ingénieur* : mainly, Engineer schools or Business schools - but there are also more specialized schools (computering, communication,...)
Before entering one of these you usually take a _classe préparatoire_ during 2 years, and then take an exam to enter the school itself which will last 3 years. Examples of famous _grandes écoles_ : Polytechnique (engineer) also known as l'X (pronounce "lixe"), l'ENA (_Ecole Nationale d'Administration_ / to work as a diplomat or a Prime Minister for instance !), HEC (_Hautes Etudes Commerciales_ / business)...

I hope I haven't forgotten anything !
Cheers


----------



## Lancel0t

In our country we do have this system.

Pre-school - Ages 3-4 (for those people who could afford the tuition fees)
Kindergarden - Age 5 (same as above)
Elementary - From Grade 1 to Grade 6 (Majority of the lower class in our country usually starts their Education from Grade 1)
High School - 1st Yr to 4th Yr
College (4 yrs or 5 yrs) or Vocational (6 months-2 years)
Post-Graduate (2 years)
Doctoral


----------



## nitad54448

timebomb said:
			
		

> I'm not certain about this but it seems like our school text books are often used by the schools of other countries.  I've heard of at least 2 schools in the United States that switched their Mathematics text books to the ones from Singapore.  Seems like our text books are very good.


Hi,
Indeed, it seems that the educational system as well as the textbooks are very good in Singapore and several countries are switching to them...
Good luck


----------



## Rayines

> things get worse as you get far from Buenos Aires (Florencio Varela, for example).


*Yes, and Marina, Luis and Marian(is!!)a you know that in Argentina, where for years public education was a model, now children sometimes can't go to school because they must take care of their little brothers and sisters, or the families send them to school to have at least one meal a day. Teachers do their best, but as the other people from Argentina has said, this is a generalized problem. Anyway, and despite everything, still public, free and obligatory **education survives here!*


----------



## SweetMommaSue

*Wow!  While I am excited to see the responses to this thread, I never anticipated hearing that other countries were having such desperate problems educating their people!  This is sooo distressing! I get furious when I hear of different counties using below standard or poor materials for their schools, and actually thought that it was the USA who was falling behind the rest of the world in education! Now, after reading these passages, I am very grieved to find out that many countries are, in fact, suffering from a degrading education system. How strange that now, in these days of such high technology, when our children are so intelligent and learning so much more quickly than even we did, that our education systems should suffer. It is a strange world we live in these days. Our children are our future--why do the bureaucrats not want to provide the absolute best education possible? I would think it would be a source of pride to be able to state that, "Our country has just implemented the most modern, comprehensive curricula available in today's market. Our children now have access to the best texts and teaching methods in the world." Strangely, though, it seems all the governments are scrabbling around doing their best to "fix" the system that went wrong!

I do hope to keep this thread alive and growing so that we may get all the countries represented here--well, the ones that have forer@s here in our WR forums, anyway. Thanks to the patient and thorough inputs given here, all of our eyes may be opened to what the world situations are REALLY like, instead of just hearing it thru the media. And who knows--maybe someone will be in a position to actually help one or more of these countries. . . (yes, I am an idealist and an optimist).

*


----------



## Katey

Private schools tend to have different ways of dividing schools.  Many have:

lower school - pre-k to 5th or 6th
upper school - 5th or 6th to 12th

However schools that end at grade 8 often have 4th to 8th as upper school.

At my school we have:

early years - children who are 3 and 4
primary years - approx. 5 years old to 7
intermediate years -approx.  8 - 11
middle school - 12 -14
upper school - 14 - 18


----------



## nitad54448

Hi,
Few words about Romania's system, 10 years of education are compulsory :

kindergarden : 3 to 6, optional
primary school : 4 years, for children 6yo,
secondary school : another 4 years
exam for admission in high school 2 years
intermediate exam for high school 2 years
exam of baccalaureat (required for entering the university); exam for entering the unversity or Polytechnic institute, etc...
N


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## cherine

En Egypt we have public and private education in all stages except for kindergarden: only private, can start at age 3 or 4.
Education is compulsory from age 6 to 14 included in 2 stages : primary school (from age 6 to 11 -that's 6 grades) and preparatory school (3 grades)
After this, there's the secondary school. Students choose between general secondary or technical secondary.
The general school (3 years where students choose between two specialisations, starting from the second year, either science or literature) After completion, determined by an exam, a bit like the French Bac, students go to university.
The Technical secondary schools (either 3 or 5 years) teaches practical stuff : artisanat (I think that's a French word, but I'm not sure about the English one for it), business administration, accountancy, secretarial skills...
Back to University : We have many universities in Egypt, public ones where we pay almost nothing, and private where a student can pay up to $ 10,000 per year (but not in all the universities, and it varies according to the field of study). And no need to say that only rich people can afford private education.
If you study "scientific" or practical studies (medecine, engineering, business, pharmacology....) you get a bachlor degree (in Arabic : bakalorios), if you study humanities (arts, literature, law, laguages...) you get a licence degree (lisans in Arabic) (these are mainly just names, arabicized from foreign languages, and I don't think there would be a problem if they both have same name) 
After getting this bachelor or licence (mainly four years of study except for some fields like engineering : 5 years, medicine 7 years) a student can start preparing a thesis to obtain a master degree (a pre-master year is first required), and the thesis is discussed or examined orally by a sort of jury formed of a number of university profesor.
Same is done later to obtain a PhD degree.
Generally a master degree need 2 years of preparation, and a PhD requires 4.

Now for the problems :
Same as every where : no discipline, low level of education so students who don't make extra efforts for self-learning to acquire extra knowledge or skills practicly graduate with "empty heads". Social differences (with no real base) betwee uniersity graduates and technical schools graduates (who're considered "inferior") actually if you get higher degrees in Preparatory you go to general secondary and not to technical secondary. But as those who go to university don't really learn that much, i don't see why they're considered better. (i'm a university graduate, by the way) 

And I forgot to say there are, in schools, another classification : religious and "laic". religious is either islamic or christian. but the majority is laic.

Hope I could draw a picture of the education in my country, though I wished it could be a "brighter" picture: 

Thanks everyone for sharig their experiences.


----------



## Whodunit

Okay, let me speak for Brandenburg, Germany. I can't generalize the German school system, because almost every federal state has another system.

Pre-school and kindergarten are merged to "Kindergarten" (the English word "kindergarten" is just borrowed from German). Children from 1 to 7 years attend "Kindergarten", and that varies depending on how educated the parents consider their children. So, many children don't go to kindergarten until the age of 3 and start school with 6 years.

At the age of 6 or 7, all children start school, i.e. elementary school (= Grundschule) from 1st to 6th class. One school years goes from one summer to the next (usually one year begins in August and ends in June or July). After that, you have to choose between Gesamtschule (= comprehensive school), Realschule (= akin to junior high school), Gymnasium (= high school), or even Förderschule (= maybe school for backward students).

Gesamtschule:
- easy and basic stuff
- not very respected by firms you apply for
- from 7th to 10th class (no special diploma)

Realschule:
- a bit more difficult material
- sufficient for some firms you don't need special qualification for
- from 7th to 10th grade (no special diploma)
- after attending Realschule, you are allowed to make a high school diploma and spend three further years in high school

Gymnasium:
- the most difficult school from the three to choose
- required for qulaified jobs and occupations
- from 7th to 13th grade (high school diploma)

So, I'll go to school until I reach the age of 20.


----------



## You little ripper!

I live in Western Australia and presume the education system is pretty much the same all over Australia. Here we have both government and non-government primary and secondary schools. It is compulsory for all children to attend school from the age of six to fifteen years. Most students continue their education until they are 18.

Children go to a primary school for years 1 to 7 with most children attending kindergarten (4 years of age) and pre-primary (5 years of age) before starting Year 1. When they complete their 7th year of primary school they go on to a secondary school for Years 8 to 12.

All government schools are co-educational (boys and girls) and non-government schools are either boys only, girls only or co-educational.

The school year starts in February and finishes in December with each year divided into four terms.

In *Primary School* (Years 1 - 7) the students are generally taught by one teacher for most of the school day. Many schools also have specialist teachers for some subjects like music, art, drama, physical education etc.
The curriculum includes English, Maths, Science, Technology and Enterprise, the Arts, Society and the Environment, Health and Physical Education plus other Languages. 

In *Lower Secondary* (Years 8 - 10) it's basically the same story except that there is a range of subjects included that the student can choose from. The students are taught by different teachers with specialised qualifications in their particular subject.

In *Upper Secondary* (Years 11 and 12) students will generally study subjects that they are really good at or ones that are related to a career they plan on following. 
These 2 years are not compulsory and often students opt to substitute them for TAFE vocational education, or employment.

In Year 12 students can sit for the Tertiary Entrance Examination (TEE) in order to be eligible to study at university.

Edit: Information summarized from: 
http://www.doir.wa.gov.au/pec/StudyInPerth/schools.asp


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## gorbatzjov

Hello Everyone,

 Let me explain to you the VERY difficult and often very confusing system of Belgian education... For those who are extremely intersted, you can always PM me for more information as I am a student (senior University student). 

Let me start by saying that we practically do not have private institutions. There are some, but they aren't much better than state schools. Also, for public schools, government pays most of the bills. Education up to 18 years is free of every charge (except school trips, etc) and in Flanders you pay around 500 euro per year of academic education (only tuition) and in Wallonia this is around 700 euro/year. School is obligated from 6 to 18 years.

*ages 2-5*: [year 1 through year 3] kindergarden. This is not obligatory but most parents send their children anyway. 

*ages 6-12*: [year 1 through year 6] primary education (dutch: lagere school; french: école primaire). 6 years where children are learned to write, read and do basic calculus. All classes are obligated by law. 

*ages 13-18*: [year 1 through year 6] secondary education (dutch: humaniora, french: école secondaire/humanités). Here there are some choises. This is the same for the whole of Belgium although I don't know their names in French, here are the options in Dutch:
_- ASO_: Algemeen secundair onderwijs (General Secondary Education): like the US middle/high school. Classes are all obligated. There are a limited choises between "streams" you can folow, like Greek, Latin, Math, Science. But most classes within the stream are the same (everyone has some math, science, Dutch, French, English, German, religion, geography, music and arts, etc)
_- TSO_: Technisch secundair onderwijs (Technical Secondary Education): for those students that want to become a licensed plumber, electrician, ...
_- KSO_: Kunst secundair onderwijs (Arts Secondary Education): for those students that want to do something with art or music.
_- BSO_: Bijzonder secundair onderwijs (Special Secundary Education): for students who are less intelligent of have a handicap that unables them to study at ASO/TSO/KSO.

 Only people who have an ASO diploma can attend Universities.

 There are different kinds of *Universities* (all public): 
 - _University _(dutch: universiteit, french: université): offers limited choise of study: medicine, law, germanic/latin languages, philosophy, religion, economics, ...
 - _"Higher education long type" _(dutch: hogeschool; french: école supérieure): this equals both in diploma as in length of study a university. It exists only for a few study areas like Business and Economics. The difference with a University is that these are more "up-to-date" and more practical (and thus preffered)
 - _"Higher education short type"_ (dutch: hogeschool; french: école supérieure): this is typically 3 years of study and aims for studies that Universities don't offer but requiere tertiary education like translator, nurse, ...

 As for the *diplomas *we are VERY DIFFERENT  Until very recently we didn't have a bachelor/master's structure. Now we are changing everything into this structure and in fact I will have my diploma June 2006 and I'll be the last year to not be in the bachelor/master structure.

 -The "higher education short type" is easy. After 3 years of study you'll obtain a Bachelor's Degree (which was until last year a "kandidaatsdiploma" in Dutch or a "diplôme de candidate" in French)
- The two others are mostly 4 years of study (5 for law, 7+ for medicine). After 2 years you would have had a Diploma of Cadidate, with which you are absolutely nothing. After another 2 years you would have had your Licence Diploma ("licentiediploma" in dutch; "diplôme de licencé" in french). This has changed this year. After 3 years you'll have an Acadamic Bachelor's Diploma (in contrary to the "normal" Bachelor's Diploma for a higher education short type"-study) and after one more year you'll have a Master's Diploma (so after 4 years you have a Master Diploma).

Here's the funny part. We changed all of this to adapt our system to the European/worldwide system. However, if I want to study with my Master's Diploma in, say, the USA, this would be seen as a Bachelor's Diploma since I only had 4 years of study.... 

 Et voilà, a complete but rather difficult explanation of Belgian educational system!

 (PS. To show off a bit  Belgium is ranked 3rd best on worldwide education, after Japan en Finland)


----------



## Black_Mamba

Just to update La reine Victoria, the 11 pluses are now called SATS, these are compulsory and are taken every year in Primary school and at the end of year six (10-11 years old). Most kids don't know they're being tested in the earlier years but they're tested on spelling and reading mainly, as well as maths. The first formal exam you have to sit is in the year 6.The results for these go towards setting (Higher, middle or lower) for your next school (High School) At the end of year 9 (15-16 yr old) you have to take SATs again, and these determine expected grades at GCSE which you work towards. SATs results are numbered, not graded. Average results for year 6 are 4s and 5s. For year 9 its 5s. Hope this is helpful.


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## krimo

Well, since no french people have answered the question, I'll do it : (I will explain the main way to obtain the "baccalauréat")

ages 2-5 :"la maternelle" actually it's more a child day care
ages 6-12 : "l'école primaire" There you learn the basics in many subjects (mainly writing and calculus)
ages 12-15 : "Le collège" You go into detail in mathematics, physics and such
ages 16-18/19 : "le lycée" There's plenty of options you can choose but the more chosen are "L" which stands for "Littéraire", "S" which stands for "Scientifique", and "ES" which stands for "Économique et Social". At the end of the year you pass (or not) the "baccalauréat"


----------



## moodywop

In Italy the wide majority of parents send their kids to state schools. With the exception of private nursery schools, private schools are in most cases not held in high regard.

The minimum school-leaving age was until recently 14. It was then raised to 15 and should eventually be raised to 16.

After primary school(ages 6-10) children go to middle school(11-14).

This is where education stops being "comprehensive", in the sense used in Britain. There is a bewildering choice of different secondary schools(ages 14-18). The "brighter" kids go to a "liceo"(a "liceo classico", where there is a greater emphasis on the humanities, including Latin and Greek, or a "liceo scientifico", where the emphasis is on both humanities and scientific subjects). Then there are various "technical" and "professional" schools. In a way "streaming" is achieved by sending kids to different schools rather than within a single school.

I'll list a series of features that would probably strike a foreign observer as peculiar:

1) Kids only go to school in the morning, Mon to Sat, from 8.30am to 1.30/2pm.

2) Teachers receive no training whatsoever. As long as you have a degree you can start teaching without any previous training/experience

3) Traditional teaching methods are still the rule. Kids memorize everything. Instead of encouraging kids to read for themselves, for example, teachers expect them to memorize facts about every single Italian author. They learn what literary critics think of an author instead of reading the actual poems/novels etc. A ponderous 3,000-page "history and anthology of Italian literature" is used. This even extends to foreign language teaching. Teenagers with an elementary knowledge of English are expected to tackle John Donne's sonnets! They are also expected to memorize a series of facts about British history/institutions/geography etc. In addition to written tests kids are regularly "interrogati", i.e. "questioned" by teachers about what they have learnt.

4) Schools are underfunded. In the South there are still some schools with no gyms. Teachers are untrained and badly-paid.

5) The final exam is a joke. Kids are examined by their own teachers. 99.9% of the kids taking it pass it. There are no entrance exams limiting access to university education. Therefore universities are overcrowded and there is an extremely high drop-out rate.

I should add that my extremely critical view of our education system is not shared by many Italians, who believe that our system provides kids with a well-rounded education in all subjects.


----------



## Gremli Skremli

Norway:
-Kindergarden (Barnehage): From around 9 months (when the maternity leave ends) to 5 years. There´s no such thing as preschool, but obviously the kids do activities adapted to their age. There are private and public kindergardens, but all of them are supervised by the state. The Norwegian government promise that all kids who want to will be able to go to kindergarden soon, meanwhile many (mostly the youngest kids) go to a nanny (dagmamma) with small groups of kids (2-5 mostly).
You have all kinds of kindergardens: bilingual, religious, outdoor, music, montessorri, Steiner etc. 
-Primary school (barneskole): From 6 to 12 (before 1996: from age 7!)
-Secondary school (ungdomsskole, or literaly "youth school": From 13 to 15.
-High school (videregående skole): From 16 to 18 although people all ages are accepted, many high schools have special classes for grownups.
It´s mandatory to finish secondary school, and if you don´t sign up for high school you get a letter or a phone call from the state, checking if everything´s ok with you.  
-University(universitet): Bachelor degrees: 3 years (before there were 4 year degrees). After that: Master (2 years) and doctorate, which is hard to get. There are only five or six universities in Norway, but many colleges are waiting to get university status.
For more "work related" carreers like engineering, nursing etc there´s college (høyskole).

My thoughts of the system:
-There are strict rules for private schools in Norway, and the only ones who excist are those who have a special religious or pedagogic profile. Generally there´s a lot of scepticism towards them, most people prefer public schools. There´s not much difference between the rich and the poor when it comes to choosing schools, most are sent to public schools.
-There´s a lot of experimenting in the ways of teaching and organizing the school day nowadays, like flexible hours, joint age groups, project work from early on, and so on. I would say independence and individuality is an important part of the education, quite modern pedagogic methods are applied. There´s not much cramming or memorizing, and no saying "sir" to the teacher, no uniforms.
-Generally Norwegian kids score high when it comes to reading/writing and very low when it comes to mathematics. Not much focus on grades in primary school, more fun and games. I would guess without knowing any numbers that the  "academic" level is lower than in many other countries. 
-The outdoors is a big part of the education for all ages. Kids are forced to play outside in all kinds of weather... Lot´s of physical activity.
-Second language from around age 8 I think (English). From 13: Third language (not mandatory), mostly French and German, but now also Spanish.
-Teachers can´t get a steady job if they aren´t trained, that means  teacher´s college (?) or a university degree + a year of training and pedagogic theory. They generally complain about the wages, but I´d say it payes the rent...


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## Nenita84

I see that nobody has spoken yet about the Spanish system of education, so I´ll be try it .

Until 6 years old the education is not compulsory.

6 years - 11 years. Primary Education that´s compulsory.
12 years - 16 years. Secundary Education that´s compulsory too.

When you are 16 years old you´ve four options:
- studying bachillerato in order to go the university.
- studying professional  formation.
- working
- to become a lazy and not to do anything

16- 18 Years- Bachillerato that´s the preparation for the university or for studying professional formation courses that are more difficult than the above-mentioneds.

In the university there are degrees (that last 5 years) and diplomes (3 years)...


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## Mita

Here I am, Suzanne!  hehe

I am going to tell you about the Chilean Education system.  Well, the "traditional" education comprises "Educación Parvularia", "Educación Básica" and "Educación Media".

Educación Parvularia.
It is not obligatory, and it can be public or private. It has the following levels:
· Nivel (level) "Sala Cuna": the institutions which give this education are the "salas cuna" and, if I am not wrong, I heard that they were going to create a "sala cuna" in a school, in Chili, so that girls that have kids can be closer to them.
84 days to 1 year old -> Nivel Sala Cuna Menor.
1 to 2 years old -> Nivel Sala Cuna Mayor.
· Nivel Medio: it's given in the "jardines infantiles" and in some schools.
2 to 3 years old -> Nivel Medio Menor.
3 to 4 years old -> Nivel Medio Mayor.
· Nivel Transición -> as "Nivel Medio", it's given in "jardines infantiles" and in some schools.
4 to 5 years -> Primer Nivel Transición, also called "Pre-kinder".
5 to 6 years old -> Segundo Nivel Transición, also called "Kinder".

Educación Básica.
It's obligatory, and it can be public, private or "particular subvencionada" (it's something like half public-half private). Generally, the names of the public institutions which give "educación básica" are "liceo" or "escuela pública", and the private ones are called "colegios". The levels are these:
· Primer ciclo.
6-7 years old -> Primero Básico.
7-8 -> Segundo Básico.
8-9 -> Tercero Básico.
9-10 -> Cuarto Básico.
· Segundo ciclo.
10-11 years old -> Quinto Básico.
11-12 -> Sexto Básico.
12-13 -> Séptimo Básico.
13-14 -> Octavo Básico.

Educación Media.
It's all the same as the "educación básica", and the levels are these:
· 14-15 years old -> Primero Medio.
· 15-16 -> Segundo Medio.
· 16-17 -> Tercero Medio.
· 17-18 -> Cuarto Medio.  I'll start with this one on March! 

After that, there is the "Educación Superior", which is not obligatory and can be given at a "Universidad" or at a "Instituto Técnico", depending on the carrer that one chooses.

In Chili there is also education for adult people which couldn't complete their obligatory education ("básica" and "media") and special education for handicapped people. But we are just starting with this, so not all adult and handicapped people can have easy access to this education.

If you want to know more about education in Chili, click here, and see Mineduc's website (Ministry of Education's website).

Cheers!


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## asm

In the US Doctoral degrees require 60-90 hours (master level or higher) of study. Most of the time these hours include some dissertation hours. Normally you take classes half of the time and when you reach certain level (depends on the specific program) you work on your dissertation.
As far as I understand, the dissertation does not have a minimum of words, but you better do a good job or you do not get the degree.

The regular time to complete a PhD is 4 years, but people who work full time spend more.

In Europe the system is different, I understand that you are allowed to study a Doctoral program without a masters degree, and you can finish the program in 2 years (at least that happened with a friend who went to England for a couple of years and came with the degree in his hands).

In America you are not allowed to study the PhD until you have your masters (or at least you are working on it).

There is a myth on doctoral degrees; people tend to think that a doctor is a super-duper genius that knows everything about his/her field. That’s not correct, a doctor is a specialist in one specific area, and does not know about EVERYTHING as most people expect. 
 



			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Hi Sweet Momma Sue,
> 
> Our university degrees equate with those of the USA. We have Bachelor's, Master's and Ph.D.s. To obtain the latter, Oxford University requires the graduate to write a 100,000 word thesis on which he/she is then orally examined. Is it the same in the USA for a Ph.D?
> 
> =LRV


----------



## asm

MEXICO:

In Mexico there are public and private schools; the former is miserable, the former is so expensive that only few people can afford it.

Kindergarden (kinder o jardin de niños) is optional
Pre-school (preprimaria) starts when the child is 6.
Elementary (primaria) is compulsory, 6 years.
Middle high (secundaria) is compulsory, 3 years.

After middle school you have the following choices:

1.- high school (preparatoria) it main focus should be on helping students enter to the university; however, for many this is the last school they attend for good.

2.- Carrera tecnica (this is similar to a associate degree, but is earned as a high school diploma)

3.- The street. Unfortunately, most students need to work or cannot afford their student expenses and leave school, not to mention all the children who have already abandoned the school at this time.

After high school there is the university. Here we have 4-5 years programs. A significant difference with the American system is that the program does not have major/minor status. The program focuses on the subject since the very beginning, that's why we have doctors (medicine), lawyers and dentists who graduate with a bachelors degree and practise as soon as they graduate.


After the Bachelors degree (which is called LICENCIATURA, or INGENIERIA most of the time), you can study a masters (maestria) and after completition you can study a doctorate. These two degrees work in a similar fashion as the American programs.



			
				SweetMommaSue said:
			
		

> Hello Forer@s,
> 
> I am very interested in the way other countries school their people. Here in the States, for instance, what used to be called nursery school (when I was young) for 3 and 4 yr. olds is now called Preschool (3 yr olds) and Pre-K (4 yr. olds) and is not mandatory. Kindergarten is for 5 yrs. and above and is mandatory in some states, but not in others. From 1st grade to 5th grade is considered elementary school and is mandatory in all states. From 6th to 8th grades is middle school and is also mandatory in all states. From 9th to 12th grades is high school and is mandatory until one reaches the age of 16 yrs. There is also vocational-technical school, available beginning at different grades depending on the state you live in, which you attend at the same time as your regular high school (the school day is split in half). After high school one can attend technical institutes (Associates degrees and certificates of course completion are available), junior colleges (2 yr. institutions which award Associate's degrees, Certificates of course completion and Letters of Recognition) or 4 yr. colleges (or universities where you can earn Associate's, Bachelor's and Master's degrees as well as the aforementioned Certificates and Letters).
> 
> There are public and private schools available in every state for those grades that are mandatory. So, there are no "public" preschools for the general public since preschools are not mandatory. There are many private ones, and there are the HeadStart programs (free to the single working parents, low-income homes). Since Kindergarten is mandatory here in Maryland, there are public school Kindergartens.
> 
> I'd love to hear from different States here in the US and from all the different countries!
> 
> Smiles,
> Sweet Momma Sue


----------



## Katey

"The regular time to complete a PhD is 4 years, but people who work full time spend more."

Actually, in the U.S. it varies from field to field.  Some fields average 8 or 9 years with 5 years as the minimum.


----------



## asm

I'd like to add this to the thread:

Education and social (and cultural/economic) level are related almost in every country; money does not buy neurons nor increase IQ, but there is a clear relationship between socio economic level and academic performance (this is not a political statement).

In education, the new fad is to quantify all "they" can measure; nowadays countires want to evaluate everything. Standarized test are popular in general. If you are interested, visit the PISA project webpage
https://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2966,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html 
Education is a new commodity; in most countries basic education is compulsory and higher education is a must for certain jobs. We are going to see a new trend on this regard. Globalization will force countries to be more flexible on transfering education from one country to another.

It is my impression that old people (like me) criticize the poor performance of our children. However, at the same time these kids are doing thing we were not able to do at their age (and I am not talking about finger/thumb skills to play nintendo).  
Big companies also complain about the skills their new employees bring to work (as recent graduates) and they are spending their money to train these workers; it is my impression that big companies will be in the education business sooner or later, just to train their own people to do what they need for their companies.


It's proven that parent involvement makes all the difference in education; the more involved parents, the better academic results for their kids.





			
				SweetMommaSue said:
			
		

> Hello Forer@s,
> 
> I am very interested in the way other countries school their people. Here in the States, for instance, what used to be called nursery school (when I was young) for 3 and 4 yr. olds is now called Preschool (3 yr olds) and Pre-K (4 yr. olds) and is not mandatory. Kindergarten is for 5 yrs. and above and is mandatory in some states, but not in others. From 1st grade to 5th grade is considered elementary school and is mandatory in all states. From 6th to 8th grades is middle school and is also mandatory in all states. From 9th to 12th grades is high school and is mandatory until one reaches the age of 16 yrs. There is also vocational-technical school, available beginning at different grades depending on the state you live in, which you attend at the same time as your regular high school (the school day is split in half). After high school one can attend technical institutes (Associates degrees and certificates of course completion are available), junior colleges (2 yr. institutions which award Associate's degrees, Certificates of course completion and Letters of Recognition) or 4 yr. colleges (or universities where you can earn Associate's, Bachelor's and Master's degrees as well as the aforementioned Certificates and Letters).
> 
> There are public and private schools available in every state for those grades that are mandatory. So, there are no "public" preschools for the general public since preschools are not mandatory. There are many private ones, and there are the HeadStart programs (free to the single working parents, low-income homes). Since Kindergarten is mandatory here in Maryland, there are public school Kindergartens.
> 
> I'd love to hear from different States here in the US and from all the different countries!
> 
> Smiles,
> Sweet Momma Sue


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## Outsider

Other opinions, U.K.


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## skye

First of all, my apologies to Sweet Momma Sue for not having written a reply for more than a week, but it's been a bit more hectic than I thought it would be. 

So what can I say about the Slovenian educational system? First of all, the elementary school (lasts nine years) just underwent some major changes so it's a bit different than it was back in my days. I'll describe the current situation. WARNING: the post is long.

Before school you can put your kid in a kindergarten - it's not an unusual thing to do here. 

*Elementary school - 9 years*

At the age of 6 (or 5 in some cases) children go to elementary school. The elementary school lasts 9 years and is divided in 3 stages (grades 1-3, 4-6, 7-9). In the first stage (grades 1-3) the children don't get any numerical marks and they spent the whole day with their class teacher. In the second stage (grades 4-6) the children gradually start getting numerical marks and they are also taught by other teachers in certain subjects (art, music, English) - not only by their class teacher any more. English is now taught since grade 4. 

Till grade 7 (12/11 years) children spend all lessons in one and the same class (the same kids all the time), but since grade 7 they can choose 3 subjects by themselves (the rest is mandatory), so they are not in the same class all the time. With three subjects (Slovene, English and Maths) they are also divided in different groups according to their marks and knowledge. 

Some children started going to school when we still had the old educational system. They now join the new system in grade 7. There aren't many such generations any more. 

*Different high schools - 4, 3 or 2 years*

_*4-year high schools*_
After the elementary school you can go to different high schools. There's "gimnazija", which lasts four years and gives you general education. There are also other high schools which last four years but they give you less general and more specific education (for example economical schools or the computer school, etc.) At the end of these high schools you can take the final exams called "matura" and go to the university. 

*3- and 2-year high schools*
Then there are also 3- and 2-year long high schools which are considered to be easier and you cannot take the "matura" exams afterwards. You also have final exams, but they are different ("poklicna matura"). If you want to go to the university, you can still do it, but it's more long-winded and complicated than if you just went to gimnazija or another 4-year high school. 

There are going to be some changes in high schools too, but I think the ministry of education want to finish with the changes in the elementary school and university first. 

*University*

University programmes are either 3 or 4 years long. You get a different title if you finish a 3-year programme than if you finish a 4-year programme. After these 3 or 4 years you get one year off to write your thesis. When you enroll to university you actually enroll at a faculty or a department so you have to choose what you're going to study (medicine, law, English, ...) and you can't just change that in the middle of the year of after a year or two. If you want to do that you have to enroll at a different faculty and start all over again. 

Afterwards there's also the master's (2 years) and the phD. 

However, we are now changing our university programmes to fit the European Union Bologne convention, so many of them are already shorter (3 years) and similar to the BA and MA system. 

I think that it's actually better now, it doesn't take you that long to get an education and hopefully the studies are going to be more practically oriented too. I still studied according to the old four year system. 




It's a very long post, but I think I've told pretty much everything there is to say. Hopefully you've made till here.


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## SweetMommaSue

Thank you, Outsider, for the link! Interesting article!

It is interesting to note that nearly all countries have both secular and religious/faith-based private schools as well as public schools. I would have thought that world-wide, the private schools would always have better education, however, that does not seem to be the case at all.

Many years ago, the Catholic schools here actually separated male and female students. That disappeared by the time I hit first grade. 

It seems that education systems are in a constant state of flux. Whether it be changing political arenas causing changes in funding for public schools which in turn causes changes in the subjects that are emphasized or cut, or simply an updating of curricula, I think one can safely say that schools have undergone massive reconstruction world-wide. It doesn't appear that all changes have been for the good, either. That is tragic. I would think that as societies progress, technologies advance and more countries develop, that naturally the education systems would also advance and develop. What is so disturbing is that even in such a modern country as the USA, there is great disparity between states and even within the states as to the level of education being taught. 

I noticed that Outcome Based Education, which stressed the "whole language" approach to learning reading and stressed grades be given for performance effort rather than objective skills learned was followed by a period of time when all our politicians began scrambling for "better ways" to "improve the system." What has the upshot been? To go back to phonics as a way to teach reading. It worked at the outset-- I'll never understand why it was done away with. 

To my way of thinking, it seems that many parents have this idea that his/her Jane/Johnny wouldn't do this or that bad thing, and so they do not back teachers when the teachers call them to attempt to straighten out problems. Many parents want the schools to be responsible for teaching and disciplining, but how on earth can the teachers teach when they have no support from the parents?? If the parents insist that their child would never misbehave and there are no negative/teaching consequences resulting from misbehavior, how are the children to learn cause and effect/ right and wrong properly??? What they learn is that you manipulate the right people the right way and you escape the ugly consequences of your idiocies.  Another issue I think is mishandled is prayer in schools. (yes, we can start another thread, but I'm just making my opinion regarding behavior) America is a melting pot, well it used to be a melting pot, now it's more akin to a conglomeration of many discrete ethnic groups/religious beliefs. I see no reason why a moment of silence, which each and every student can use to his or her own liking--whether it be silent prayer to Buddha, Jesus, Allah or just plain ol' daydreaming--should be frowned upon. For those students accustomed to depending upon prayer to guide them through the day, it will emphasize the importance of maintaining their moral/ethical stance. For the others who daydream, well, they can reflect on their dreams, goals or whatever they wish without any undue worry. It's a good practice to encourage discipline. I'm sure it could have only a positive effect, anyway. Especially if the teacher were to have a statement from the school code of ethics on the black or white board for those students who claim to have nothing to reflect on (there will always be those). My boys were handed a school handbook that contained guidelines for proper and acceptable behavior in the classrooms and on school property. Each day, a different one of the points could be written for the kids to read. And we wonder why there are so many behavior problems in the schools??

THen we have the other side of the coin where administrators look unfavorably upon those schools with significant numbers of "referrals" for discipline, and so the teachers are discouraged from handing out the referrals. I knew of a case where a teacher who was very enthusiastic and goal-oriented was let go. Officially the reason stated had nothing to do with what actually happened. This particular teacher was strict and put up with no outbursts in class. She used referrals to call her students into accountability for their actions. Well, because her numbers were "too high," it supposedly made the school "look bad" to the administrators. She was actually told to stop giving out so many referrals! The problem is--that is how the teachers communicate with the parents! 

The American system is victim to the same trend towards lack of discipline in the students and high illiteracy rates as many other countries. Unfortunately, I see that where affluent neighborhoods exist, those schools have a clear-cut advantage over poorer, inner-city schools. It does seem like a ray of hope exists, though. I have been hearing and seeing different areas taking charge and making the school boards accountable to the people. My own county, for instance, has one of the best curricula around for public schools. We are at least one year ahead of the county next to us. I can hardly wait for the residents of that county to get on the ball and make their school board take action and get a decent program running! THose children are being deprived. It's just not necessary.

Here is an example of one lady's project to educate the people of Prince George's County, Maryland on what's happening with their school system. She has a web site and a regular email distribution. She also has a regular newspaper column! Here is her web site. I commend her highly! 

I can hardly wait to see more inputs from more countries! It is only through diligent research that we can become enlightened. . . thank you everyone for having a part in enlightening all of the readers here as to what conditions actually are in the various nations of our world.


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