# быть за то, чтобы



## Konstantinos

Мы видим, конечно, все знаем, что в Белоруссии происходят внутриполитические события, связанные как раз с этими выборами. Вы нашу позицию хорошо знаете: мы за то, чтобы белорусы сами, без всяких подсказок и давления извне, в спокойном режиме и в диалоге друг с другом разобрались в этой ситуации и пришли к общему решению, как выстраивать свою работу дальше.

Hi all. This is from a meeting between Vladimir Putin and Aleksandr Lukashenko.

What is the meaning of "за то, чтобы"?

Заранее спасибо.


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## pimlicodude

за means "in favour of"
за то, чтобы is a kind of way of expanding that, in order to lead into a verb clause.

мы за то, чтобы белорусы сами разобрались в этой ситуации: we are  in favour of the Belorussians themselves sorting this situation out


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## pimlicodude

All prepositions can lead into verb clauses by means of such an expansion.
1. для - governs nouns and pronouns. для этого.
2. But if you want to lead into a verb: Обман врага для того, чтобы он позволил вам оказаться внутри его крепости, является тактикой со времен древних греков. Tricking an enemy into letting you inside their stronghold is a strategy as old as the ancient Greeks. Here для того, чтобы can lead into a finite verb "он позволил"
3. It can also lead into an infinitive if the subject is the same:  Он здесь сейчас для того, чтобы сделать заявление.  He's here in order to give his statement.
4. As чтобы is included in this, if you follow up with a finite verb, it has to be preterite. для того, что он ПОЗВОЛИЛ.

You can go on context reverso and check out things like с тем, чтобы and к тому, чтобы. This a very regular grammatical device.


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## nizzebro

Быть за + acc, and its opposite быть против + gen (against), are used when it comes to voting or expressing a position on a certain subject - as pro and contra, respectively.
As Pimlico noted, чтобы is needed to attach a subordinate clause for this or other prepositionals where the point is some potential state of affairs (relative to the situation in the main clause).


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## pimlicodude

So the opposite is: мы против того, чтобы белорусы сами разобрались в этой ситуации


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## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> So the opposite is: мы против того, чтобы белорусы сами разобрались в этой ситуации


Except only that more naturally it is "против того, чтобы ... разбирались...".
The reason for the imperfective is that as we don't want them to do that, we reject not the result but yet the process. It is the same principle as that in general negative constructions where the imperfective is used because it's the processual part that needs to be rejected - otherwise  it is result only, and thus a particular event is mentioned, that could have actually been started but only not completed. With the positive за, the aspect depends on the context: here it is perfective as the speaker wishes them to achieve the result, but in case if the idea was like - let them get busy with that stuff and not us - that would be the imperfective form.


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## pimlicodude

nizzebro said:


> Except only that more naturally it is "против того, чтобы ... разбирались...".
> The reason for the imperfective is that as we don't want them to do that, we reject not the result but yet the process. It is the same principle as that in general negative constructions where the imperfective is used because it's the processual part that needs to be rejected - otherwise  it is result only, and thus a particular event is mentioned, that could have actually been started but only not completed. With the positive за, the aspect depends on the context: here it is perfective as the speaker wishes them to achieve the result, but in case if the idea was like - let them get busy with that stuff and not us - that would be the imperfective form.


That is something I would never have thought of myself - thank you for pointing it out.


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## Konstantinos

Thank you all for your answers.

This is an example from wiktionary:

Он проголосовал за строительство новой школы.

This is my try:

Он проголосовал за то, чтобы они строили новой школы.

What is your opinion?


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## nizzebro

Konstantinos said:


> Он проголосовал за то, чтобы они строили новой школы.


Should be "... чтобы они строили новую школу."


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## Maroseika

I'd say just за то, чтобы построили новую школу. There is no "they" in the first phrase.


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## Rosett

Konstantinos said:


> Он проголосовал за то, чтобы они строили новой школы.
> 
> What is your opinion?


Он проголосовал за то, чтобы строили новую школу.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> I'd say just за то, чтобы построили новую школу


How could you justify _построили_?


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## nizzebro

Rosett said:


> How could you justify _построили_?


Is there a need to justify that? One might use both.  With the imperfective, the voter says they want the process of construction  to take place - which means for it to begin. The perfective implies that they want the result of the school built there.


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## Rosett

nizzebro said:


> Is there a need to justify that? One might use both.  With the imperfective, the voter says they want the process of construction  to take place - which means for it to begin. The perfective implies that they want the result of the school built there.


Apparently, yes, there’s such a need. The original reads _строительство_. _Строительство_ is either a process, or a construction site, not a finished building.
*строительство*
с
1) (процесс) construction
строительство нового жилого района — housing development
2) (стройплощадка) construction site
*строительство*
с.
1) (стройка, строительные работы) building; construction
дорожное строительство — road building
2) (объект) (construction) project ['prɒ-]; (территория) construction area
3) (создание) formation
партийное строительство — party development / formation
*строительство*
ср.
1.Отрасль науки и техники, занимающаяся возведением и реконструкцией зданий, сооружений.
2.Возведение зданий, сооружений.
отт. перен. Создание, построение чего-либо.
3.Территория, где строится что-либо.
отт. Само строящееся здание, сооружение.


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## nizzebro

Rosett said:


> Apparently, yes, there’s such a need. The original reads _строительство_. _Строительство_ is either a process, or a construction site, not a finished building.


I see, but anyway the perfective is a more natural option for this and other cases of such kind of subordinate phrase (except negative ones, of course).
In our context, cтроительство has not that strict processual meaning as строить; rather it is a general fact - while with finite verbs used, the aspectual distinction is sharp - so neither option could be considered an exact correlation to that with the deverbal noun.


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## Rosett

nizzebro said:


> I see, but anyway the perfective is a more natural option for this and other cases of such kind of subordinate phrase (except negative ones, of course).
> In our context, cтроительство has not that strict processual meaning as строить; rather it is a general fact - while with finite verbs used, the aspectual distinction is sharp - so neither option could be considered an exact correlation to that with the deverbal noun.


In our context, there may be two options: _за строительство,_ or _за постройку_. _Строительство_, however, features ongoing construction work, or a site, or an unfinished building, unless there would be a conclusive counter-evidence in the context, which is not the case.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> In our context, there may be two options: _за строительство,_ or _за постройку_. _Строительство_, however, features ongoing construction work, or a site, or an unfinished building, unless there would be a conclusive counter-evidence in the context, which is not the case.


By default, I understand the phrase as referring to the real life rather than to the scholastic abstraction. When people vote for строительство школы, they vote for the result, that is a new school, and not for the process.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> When people vote for строительство школы, they vote for the result, that is a new school, and not for the process.


People want a new school, but they can vote only for the process, that may result in a new school.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> People want a new school, but they can vote only for the process, that may result in a new school.


Cannot agree with you, but this is far beyond the theme ща the tread за то, чтобы.
I would not recommend the variant проголосовали за то, чтобы строили школу as the counterpart of проголосовали за строительство школы, unless it was preceded by something very special, requiring to underline the process.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> I would not recommend the variant проголосовали за то, чтобы строили школу as the counterpart of проголосовали за строительство школы, unless it was preceded by something very special, requiring to underline the process.


In this case, a perfective form _чтобы_ _построили_ is the only one appropriate, apparently. You may want to compare it with the OP statement:
«…_за то, чтобы_ белорусы сами, без всяких подсказок и давления извне, в спокойном режиме и в диалоге друг с другом _разобрались_ в этой ситуации и _пришли_ к общему решению…»


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## nizzebro

Rosett, I have an idea for you how to defeat stubborn opponents - use the noun in plural form:
Проголосовали за то, чтобы в нашем районе строили школы  = за строительство школ в нашем районе.

But anyway it only shows that the context matters. There are no clear correspondence of deverbals to aspects, because a noun as such is a static thing. The plural use above exactly makes the verb meaning more like static, and so smooths out the nuances.


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## Rosett

nizzebro said:


> But anyway it only shows that the context matters. There are no clear correspondence of deverbals to aspects, because a noun as such is a static thing. The plural use above exactly makes the verb meaning more like static, and so smooths out the nuances.


Если, по-вашему, аспект не переносится на глагол или не играет существенной роли в конечном результате по тем или иным причинам, то можно голосовать не за строительство, а за золотую рыбку или за волшебную палочку, мановением которой школы могли бы возникать без строительства сразу по подведении итогов голосования


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## nizzebro

Я этого не говорю. Я говорю только, что само "строительство" в таком предложении позволяет избежать акцента на чисто процессе или чисто результате.


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