# Urdu: Female names رضیہ and زکیہ



## Qureshpor

I am interested in finding out how Urdu speakers pronounce the names  رضیہ and زکیہ .

Could you please indicate their pronunciation by using Roman transliteration. Thanks.


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## Jervoltage

As a brief aside p), the pronunciation is /zakiye/ in Persian. As to the other name, I have never heard it.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I am interested in finding out how Urdu speakers pronounce the names  رضیہ and زکیہ .
> 
> Could you please indicate their pronunciation by using Roman transliteration. Thanks.



razia and zakia


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## Alfaaz

> I am interested in finding out how Urdu speakers pronounce the names رضیہ and زکیہ .
> Could you please indicate their pronunciation by using Roman transliteration. Thanks.


Raziyah or raziyyah (read the iy / iyy as a shadd), although I would prefer pronouncing it the Arabic way (explained below)
zakiyah / zakiyyah
صفیہ : safiyyah
ثریا : sureiyyaa

People are always trying to find unique and different names for their children (in all cultures, recently demonstrated by names like Diesel), and so there seems to be a trend to change the pronunciation of some names back to Arabic, Persian, or vice versa--Urduize them...giving them a "new" touch.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Raziyah or raziyyah (read the iy / iyy as a shadd), although I would prefer pronouncing it the Arabic way (explained below)
> zakiyah / zakiyyah



Do you use this pronunciation for the film "رضیہ سلطانہ" ?


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## Alfaaz

> Do you use this pronunciation for the film "رضیہ سلطانہ" ?


No for the film and historical figure, I would use the Urdu version with a "z". However, if I was asked to name a new born...and had to pick between raziyyah or radhiyyah, I would probably choose the latter as it would be "different, unique" according to present times and "fashion" of giving different/unique/wild/exotic names to kids...


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> No for the film and historical figure, I would use the Urdu version with a "z". However, if I was asked to name a new born...and had to pick between raziyyah or radhiyyah, I would probably choose the latter as it would be "different, unique" according to present times and "fashion" of giving different/unique/wild/exotic names to kids...



A bit of mutual misunderstanding is at work here. For the purposes of this thread the Arabic pronunciation of the "z" in this word is irrelevant. My question was whether you say "raziyah/raziyyah sultaanah" or "razyah sultaanah"?


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## Alfaaz

> My question was whether you say "raziyah/raziyyah sultaanah" or "razyah sultaanah"?


The first one. Is it wrong?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> The first one. Is it wrong?



Alfaaz, I am waiting for a couple (or three if we are lucky) more people who might respond to this thread. Either way, I shall get back to your question soon.


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## Qureshpor

Jervoltage said:


> As a brief aside p), the pronunciation is /zakiye/ in Persian. As to the other name, I have never heard it.



Thank you, Jervoltage for your contribution. رضیہ is quite a common name amongst Muslims of the subcontinent.

http://www.jame-ghor.com/ghor_province/ghurid_women/sultan_razia_biography.htm


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## marrish

My pronunciation is _zakiyah_ and _raz(z)iyah_. This is also how these names are heard.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> razia and zakia



Clarification please UM SaaHib.

Is your "razia/zakia" in essence "raziya/zakiya" where the "i" is a zer or is it "raziiya/zakiiya"?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> My pronunciation is _zakiyah_ and _raz(z)iyah_. This is also how these names are heard.



Same question to you marrish SaaHib as that posed to UM SaaHib. Is there any "ii" sound in your pronunciation?


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## marrish

I don't think I can say this is a -ii- sound, rather I can describe it as a stressed -i- sound. It has been a couple of posts ago that you posed your query but no clarification has come yet.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Clarification please UM SaaHib.
> 
> Is your "razia/zakia" in essence "raziya/zakiya" where the "i" is a zer or is it "raziiya/zakiiya"?


Definitely not raziiya/zakiiya, in common use that I am accustomed to hearing. In fact, somewhere between razia/zakia and raziya/zakiya.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Definitely not raziiya/zakiiya, in common use that I am accustomed to hearing. In fact, somewhere between razia/zakia and raziya/zakiya.



Thanks. Would your pronunciation be significantly different from razya/zakya?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Thanks. Would your pronunciation be significantly different from razya/zakya?


Correct. Much closer to razia/zakia.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Correct. Much closer to razia/zakia.



Apologies for "nitpicking". Did you mean to write "Correct. Much closer to razya/zakya"?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Apologies for "nitpicking". Did you mean to write "Correct. Much closer to razya/zakya"?



No, more like, "Correct, significantly different from razya/zakya". 

Next line, "Much closer to razia/zakia."


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## marrish

My curiosity is awakened, UM saahab, is there a sound of -y- in your pronunciation?


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## UrduMedium

^ Very mild.


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## marrish

UM SaaHab however it is difficult to describe pronunciation, I think I can see myself in your pronunciation pattern. It seems this mild ''y'' is the bridge way between i and a.


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## Qureshpor

Gentlemen (and any ladies who may wish to join), how would you transliterate (pronounce) the feminine of the male name which begins with an r and means "high"/"elevated"? (He is a famous Indian film singer too).


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## marrish

The same form I said earlier I pronounce.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Gentlemen (and any ladies who may wish to join), how would you transliterate (pronounce) the feminine of the male name which begins with an r and means "high"/"elevated"? (He is a famous Indian film singer too).



spelling: rafii3ah 
pronunciation: rafii'a


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> spelling: rafii3ah
> pronunciation: rafii'a



Thank you for your explicit reply (unlike marrish SaaHib's )


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## Qureshpor

Gentlemen (and ladies). I have been curious about the pronunciation of رضیہ and زکیہ for some time now and I was hoping to get a little wider representation of forum members to form a reasonable conclusion. I was hoping that all mother-tongue Urdu speakers who normally take part in the forum would participate as well as those Urdu speakers whose mother tongue may be another language. It would have been good to have had at least three more persons' input but that's life. I would like to thank Jervoltage for his participation and contribution.

The concensus so far has been that these two words (رضیہ and زکیہ ) are pronounced in the following manner.

raziya(h)/zakiya(h)

According to UM SaaHib, the "y" is quite faint and marrish SaaHib is of the view that it is a kind of "connector" between the "i" and the "a". Friends would most likely to be aware that the word "dunyaa" is invariably written as "duniyaa" in the Devanagri alphabet. Perhaps the same phenomenon is at work here. From the Punjabi perspective, I have always perceived these words as "razya(h)" and "zakya(h)". It could be that in reality the pronunciation in Punjabi is the same as the Urdu speakers, i.e. raziya(h)/zakiya(h) but I can not be 100% certain. 

I have then posed the question, concerning the feminine of the name "Rafi" (rafii3). The answer came back (from UM SaaHib).."rafii3ah". What I am going to suggest to our Urdu speakers here (and this may be no great revelation to them) is that the words in question (as far as Urdu and even Punjabi are concerned) are raziiya(h) and "zakiiya(h)", being of the same pattern as "rafii3a(h)". Why am I so certain about this? Well, here are my reasons.

1) This is how the words ought to be, from Arabic grammatical perspective and pronunciation.

2) I have heard even this pronunciation amongst some Punjabis.

3) In Urdu poetry, a word's vowels can be determined from one's knowledge of prosody. In the following segment (from a much longer poem by Mahdi Ali Khan), the words in fact are of the same "vazn" as "jamiilah".

Raziiya(h) zaraa garm chaaval to laanaa 
Zakiiya(h) zaraa ThanDaa paanii pilaanaa 
bahut KHuub-suurat bahut nek thaa vuh 
hazaaroN javaanoN meN bas ek thaa vuh 

Jamiilah mujhe rauGHanii naan denaa 
vuh firnii uThaanaa vuh pakvaan denaa 
judaaii meN us kii miraa dil divaanah 
kih lagtaa hai achhchhaa nah piinaa nah khaanaa 

So, do Urdu speakers pronounce them ham-vazn with "Jamiilah"?

https://groups.google.com/group/alt...6ba63e3b74e?lnk=gst&q=razyah#930566ba63e3b74e


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I have then posed the question, concerning the feminine of the name "Rafi" (rafii3). The answer came back (from UM SaaHib).."rafii3ah". What I am going to suggest to our Urdu speakers here (and this may be no great revelation to them) is that the words in question (as far as Urdu and even Punjabi are concerned) are raziiya(h) and "zakiiya(h)", being of the same pattern as "rafii3a(h)". Why am I so certain about this? Well, here are my reasons.
> 
> 1) This is how the words ought to be, from Arabic grammatical perspective and pronunciation.


In Arabic pronunciation _raziyyah/zakiyyah_ are similar but _rafii3ah _is different. _zakiyyah _is arrived at by adding _ah _to _zakiyy _(yes two ya's, due to omitted shaddah). Similarly _raziyya_. However, _rafii3ah _is arrived at by adding _ah _to _rafii3_ (no doubling of ya's). So the first set has an extra ye while _rafii3ah _doesn't. The Arabic hijjeh of zakiyyah is ze-zabar, kaaf-zer, [ye-saakin, ye-zabar], ha-saakin. Nowhere close to how _rafii3ah _is written.

The same difference causes variation of pronunciations for these names in Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> In Arabic pronunciation _raziyyah/zakiyyah_ are similar but _rafii3ah _is different. _zakiyyah _is arrived at by adding _ah _to _zakiyy _(yes two ya's, due to omitted shaddah). Similarly _raziyya_. However, _rafii3ah _is arrived at by adding _ah _to _rafii3_ (no doubling of ya's). So the first set has an extra ye while _rafii3ah _doesn't. The Arabic hijjeh of zakiyyah is ze-zabar, kaaf-zer, [ye-saakin, ye-zabar], ha-saakin. Nowhere close to how _rafii3ah _is written.
> 
> The same difference causes variation of pronunciations for these names in Urdu.



UM SaaHib. rafii3 is an adjective like saGhiir, kabiir, Hasiin etc, the pattern being fa3iil. (CvCvC, where C is a consonat and v is a vowel).

raziiy and zakiiy (forgetting that in Arabic realm, it is not "z" in the first one) are also adjectives. (CvCvC). Yes, "y" is a consonant here. Just add "-ah", and you have the completed recipe.

Now, "raziiyah" and "zakiiyah" may not be the colloquial Urdu pronunciations but that is another matter.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> UM SaaHib. rafii3 is an adjective like saGhiir, kabiir, Hasiin etc, the pattern being fa3iil. (CvCvC, where C is a consonat and v is a vowel).
> 
> raziiy and zakiiy (forgetting that in Arabic realm, it is not "z" in the first one) are also adjectives. (CvCvC). Yes, "y" is a consonant here. Just add "-ah", and you have the completed recipe.
> 
> Now, "raziiyah" and "zakiiyah" may not be the colloquial Urdu pronunciations but that is another matter.


Yes same pattern, but the fact that zakiyy and raziyy have the last of the trilateral root as a "y/ii", makes a difference. Since the filler in the _fa3iil _form is also a "y/ii". The two combined making "zakiyy/zakiyyah" in Arabic, therefore having a shaddah impact on the pronunciation. You can frequently observe this in the Qur'an. Nothing like this happens in_ rafii3/rafii3ah_, since there's no shaddah formed as the root letters a r-f-3, leading to a smooth long ii vowel rather than a y-tashdiid.


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## BP.

You might like to view the spelling of a local brand of pre-prepared food here: http://www.ferico.fr/images/actu/4/plats_cuisines_halal_zakia.jpg.


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## UrduMedium

UrduMedium said:


> Yes same pattern, but the fact that zakiyy and raziyy have the last of the trilateral root as a "y/ii", makes a difference. Since the filler in the _fa3iil _form is also a "y/ii". The two combined making "zakiyy/zakiyyah" in Arabic, therefore having a shaddah impact on the pronunciation. You can frequently observe this in the Qur'an. Nothing like this happens in_ rafii3/rafii3ah_, since there's no shaddah formed as the root letters a r-f-3, leading to a smooth long ii vowel rather than a y-tashdiid.



Here's a typical Arabic pronunciation of the name zakiyyah (ignoring the tanwiin at the end). The shaddah is unmistakable, which is totally missing in rafii3ah/jamiilah.

http://www.forvo.com/word/زكِيَّةً/

Another example here (safiyyah)

Edit: Did not find rafii3ah, but another one on the same template, rafiiqah. Listen here. Also jamiilah here.


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## Qureshpor

Let us get out of this roundabout and go onto a straight road which may lead us to our desired destination.

I am simply stating that both these words are "ham-vazn" with "rafii3ah", "rafiiqah", "Jamiilah" and many many more. They are probably not pronounced by Urdu speakers as "raziiyah" and "zakiiyah" but in terms of accuracy of pronunciation, our literature points to this pronunciation.

Now coming to the spelling of these two words. I am sure you would agree that the "ii" sound in Arabic/Urdu/Persian is technically represented by "zer +ye".

Therefore:-

raziiyah = re +zabar + zavaad + zer +ye +ye +zabar +he

raz-iy-yah 

(And I have said above that zer + ye = ii,therefore  this is equivalent to raz-ii-yah)

Now, as two ys converge, our conventions is to indicate this by a tashdiid. So, one could take this as:

i) raz-ii-yah or

ii) ra-ziy-yah

I am suggesting to you that in the middle syllable of ii) the y is not a consonant but a semi-vowel to make the long-ii- vowel. The fact that a tashdiid is placed is merely to satisfy the convention of representing a duplicated letter. I hope you can see where I am coming from.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Let us get out of this roundabout and go onto a straight road which may lead us to our desired destination.


First things first. I thought you suggested that in Arabic the pronunciation for zakiyyah/raziyyah and rafii3ah/jamiilah perfectly rhyme. I produced real-life counter examples from native Arabic speakers. _Why is that going on a roundabout?_

Two things to note:
1. 3 followed by -ah is very different from y followed by -ah. 3 keeps its distinct sounds and just adds -ah sound. When -ah follows y, the two sounds merge and create an iiah effect. Not sure how to best describe it.
2. In Urdu the y with shaddah followed by -ah almost always results in dropping of the tashdiid. Which is why we end us with zakiya/zakia.


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## Qureshpor

yaa rab vuh nah samjhe haiN nah samjheN ge mirii baat
de aur dil un ko jo nah de mujh ko zabaaN aur!


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> yaa rab vuh nah samjhe haiN nah samjheN ge mirii baat
> de aur dil un ko jo nah de mujh ko zabaaN aur!


 

qaasid ke aate aate xat ik aur likh rakhuuN
maiN jaantaa huuN kyaa voh likeN ge javaab meN


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## Alfaaz

I'm a bit confused after reading the replies, so I'll just directly ask: was my answer/pronunciation correct Qureshpor SaaHib?

I would agree with QP SaaHib that many use the correct pronunciation in multiple languages (even on TV).


> yaa rab vuh nah samjhe haiN nah samjheN ge mirii baat
> de aur dil un ko jo nah de mujh ko zabaaN aur!


O Lord! Neither have they understood nor will they understand my words
give different hearts to them who don't give me more tongues/words..........? 


> qaasid ke aate aate xat ik aur likh rakhuuN
> maiN jaantaa huuN kyaa voh likeN ge javaab meN


While the messenger comes/arrives, I'll quickly write/prepare another letter
(as) I know what they will write in response............?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Let us get out of this roundabout and go onto a straight road which may lead us to our desired destination.
> 
> I am simply stating that both these words are "ham-vazn" with "rafii3ah", "rafiiqah", "Jamiilah" and many many more. They are probably not pronounced by Urdu speakers as "raziiyah" and "zakiiyah" but in terms of accuracy of pronunciation, our literature points to this pronunciation.
> 
> Now coming to the spelling of these two words. I am sure you would agree that the "ii" sound in Arabic/Urdu/Persian is technically represented by "zer +ye".
> 
> Therefore:-
> 
> raziiyah = re +zabar + zavaad + zer +ye +ye +zabar +he
> 
> raz-iy-yah
> 
> (And I have said above that zer + ye = ii,therefore  this is equivalent to raz-ii-yah)
> 
> Now, as two ys converge, our conventions is to indicate this by a tashdiid. So, one could take this as:
> 
> i) raz-ii-yah or
> 
> ii) ra-ziy-yah
> 
> I am suggesting to you that in the middle syllable of ii) the y is not a consonant but a semi-vowel to make the long-ii- vowel. The fact that a tashdiid is placed is merely to satisfy the convention of representing a duplicated letter. I hope you can see where I am coming from.


Earlier I was stuck on the first paragraph (roundabout). Now I read your post and can follow the logic. Yes from a _sarf _perspective the two names zakiyyah and rafii3ah are similar but from pronunciation perspective they are not. Because of the reasons I have been repeating. Since the thread is about pronunciation, it is a material fact.

But since the thread is about Urdu pronunciation, I think all of the Arabic discussion can be thrown out the window without much loss to the thread. Urdu pronunciation is what we converged upon through triangulation earlier in the discussion. Between zakia and zakiya (closer to former). I know >1 Urdu-speaking people with the name and can confidently report that zakia/zakiya is a very common Urdu pronunciation.


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## Alfaaz

> ...confidently report that zakia/zakiya is a very common Urdu pronunciation.


This is one of those threads where I wish there were sound! 
Is your above quoted pronunciation "zak yaa" or "zakii yah" ?


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## UrduMedium

Alfaaz said:


> This is one of those threads where I wish there were sound!
> Is your above quoted pronunciation "zak yaa" or "zakii yah" ?


Neither. Just the way I wrote it. zakia/zakiya.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Earlier I was stuck on the first paragraph (roundabout). Now I read your post and can follow the logic. Yes from a _sarf _perspective the two names zakiyyah and rafii3ah are similar but from pronunciation perspective they are not. Because of the reasons I have been repeating. Since the thread is about pronunciation, it is a material fact.
> 
> Thank you for your understanding of the core issue rather than focusing on the periphery. I believe for the sake of uniformity, one ought to apply the same spelling convention for both types of words. Either both should be "zak*ii*yah" and "raf*ii*3ah" or "zak*iy*yah" and "raf*iy*3ah". I hope everyone can see that the highlighted parts are equal in the sense that they represent the yaa-i-ma3ruuf (-ii-) sound and the consonant that follows it in the first instance is "y" and in the second it is "3". So pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) they are exactly the same, not similar. I have been constantly saying that the pronunciation in Urdu for raziiyah/raziyyah and "zakiiyah/zakiyyah" is not necessarily the same as these words are being spelt here but, our prosody system is giving these vowels and consonants identical value (vazn) to "Jamiilah/Jamiylah".
> 
> 
> But since the thread is about Urdu pronunciation, I think all of the Arabic discussion can be thrown out the window without much loss to the thread. Urdu pronunciation is what we converged upon through triangulation earlier in the discussion. Between zakia and zakiya (closer to former). I know >1 Urdu-speaking people with the name and can confidently report that zakia/zakiya is a very common Urdu pronunciation.
> 
> The discussion on Arabic spelling has been fruitful and therefore not out of place.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> I'm a bit confused after reading the replies, so I'll just directly ask: was my answer/pronunciation correct Qureshpor SaaHib?
> 
> Alfaaz SaaHib, apologies but I did n't intend to sideline your original question. When I presented a kind of "summary", your spellings were not too different from UM and marrish SaaHibaan. So, I lumped everything together. To answer your question, directly, I don't believe your pronunciation is wrong. I think it is the usual pronunciation one hears by Urdu  (and Punjabi) speakers, as far as I can tell.
> 
> I would agree with QP SaaHib that many use the correct pronunciation in multiple languages (even on TV).
> 
> O Lord! Neither have they understood nor will they understand my words
> give different hearts to them who don't give me more tongues/words..........?
> 
> O Lord, neither has s/he understood nor will s/he understand my words
> Please bestow her/him another heart if you won't give me another tongue!


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## UrduMedium

Re: post 41

Do you pronounce the following with tashdiid on ye also?

 اِتِّفاقِیَّہ
 اِسْمِیَّہ 
 اَشْرافِیَّہ 
 اِعْتِرافِیَّہ 
 یَومِیّہ 

Not right or wrong, just how you say and hear these?


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Re: post 41Do you pronounce the following with tashdiid on ye also?اِتِّفاقِیَّہ اِسْمِیَّہ اَشْرافِیَّہ اِعْتِرافِیَّہ یَومِیّہ Not right or wrong, just how you say and hear these?



While speaking which language?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> While speaking which language?


 Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Urdu.



Without the tashdiid, in normal everyday speech, as in zakiiyah/zakiyyah, raziiyah/raziyyah!


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Without the tashdiid, in normal everyday speech, as in zakiiyah/zakiyyah, raziiyah/raziyyah!



So zakiiyah/zakiyyah has no tashdiid! I understand rafii3ah has not tashdiid, but how one says zakiiyah/zakiyyah without it?

I give up


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> So zakiiyah/zakiyyah has no tashdiid! I understand rafii3ah has not tashdiid, but how one says zakiiyah/zakiyyah without it?
> 
> I give up



I am glad that the penny has finally dropped or I hope it has! I don't think it is impossible to say "-ii-yah" without turning it into "-iy-yah" (with a tashdiid).


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## UrduMedium

^ I wish it had too. But this "I give up" is more like "shaking one's head in disbelief". It is indeed impossible to say zakiiyah/zakiyyah without tashdiid.

Enough said by me. Time to sign off from the thread.


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## marrish

I'm convinced that it is pronounced as -ii-yah, just because of tashdiid, however in everyday parlance it is not pronounced like this (as far as I'm concerned). More like hypothetical articulation. I'm even wondering whether it used to be the pronunciation in vogue ever.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> I believe for the sake of uniformity, one ought to apply the same spelling convention for both types of words.


Qureshpor Sahib, do you mean "the same _transliteration_ or _romanization_ convention"? The spelling in the Urdu script is fixed, as far as I know.


QURESHPOR said:


> I have been constantly saying that the pronunciation in Urdu for raziiyah/raziyyah and "zakiiyah/zakiyyah" is not necessarily the same as these words are being spelt here but, our prosody system is giving these vowels and consonants identical value (vazn) to "Jamiilah/Jamiylah".


I could be way off here because I don't really know the rules of prosody, but wouldn't _jamiil_ and _jamaal_ also have the same wazn as far as meter is concerned? If so, wouldn't wazn be only a very limited guideline for spelling and transliteration?

Also, I hope you permit my suggestion that you could edit the quote tags (as detailed here) in a forum post so that your reply would be in unquoted space. This would make quoting you in turn much easier!

Regarding the -iiya- vs -iyya- debate, this post from the Arabic forum may be relevant: (You can follow the arrow in the quote header to go to the thread)


lukebeadgcf said:


> There are different transliteration styles regarding this ending. Generally, there are two options:
> 
> lubnānīyah
> 
> and
> 
> lubnāniyyah
> 
> The former is the style used by Wehr in the fourth edition of his Arabic-English dictionary (except that he also would have omitted the "h" at the end). This style reflects an assumption made by both William Wright and Hans Wehr that a long vowel followed by a consonant is phonologically identical to a short vowel followed by a geminated consonant, which in turns stems from the assumption that a long vowel is simply a short vowel followed by a sākin semi-consonant, an idea they even extended to ألف by positing that قال could be voweled قَاْلَ.
> 
> By this logic, they would maintain that the the passive of the measure-III قاول:
> 
> قووِلَ
> 
> is identical in pronunciation to the passive of the قوّل (measure II):
> 
> قُوِّلَ
> 
> Based on linguistic studies like this one (http://www.majma.org.jo/majma/index.php/2009-02-10-09-36-00/290-66-2.html) on the nature of long vowels, I am hesitant to make this assumption, and I prefer the second style of transliteration (lubnāniyyah), as I feel that it more accurately reflects the phonological reality. I also think it more closely reflects how the word is voweled in Arabic:
> 
> لُبْنانِيَّة
> 
> Here, we see a short vowel كسرة followed by a ياء مشدّدة or a geminated yā'.
> 
> 
> 
> Juc1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK thanks so I would write this one as 'al-ḥaqīqīyah'.
> 
> 
> 
> I would prefer 'al-ḥaqīqiyyah'
> 
> Hope that helps.
Click to expand...


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## Qureshpor

Abu Talha said:


> Qureshpor Sahib, do you mean "the same _transliteration_ or _romanization_ convention"? The spelling in the Urdu script is fixed, as far as I know.
> I could be way off here because I don't really know the rules of prosody, but wouldn't _jamiil_ and _jamaal_ also have the same wazn as far as meter is concerned? If so, wouldn't wazn be only a very limited guideline for spelling and transliteration?
> 
> Also, I hope you permit my suggestion that you could edit the quote tags (as detailed here) in a forum post so that your reply would be in unquoted space. This would make quoting you in turn much easier!
> 
> Regarding the -iiya- vs -iyya- debate, this post from the Arabic forum may be relevant: (You can follow the arrow in the quote header to go to the thread)



Abu Talha SaaHib, I had in mind UM SaaHib's transliteration (in Roman).

I am marginally versed in the art of prosody. If you take a look at the poetry link, a gentleman by the name of UVR* tells the readers that raziiyah and zakiiyah are of exactly the same vazn as "jamiilah" further down the poem. My own knowledge of Arabic (as meagre as it might be) tells me that all these three words are of the fa3iilah pattern. So, a word of the fa3aal pattern does not really come into the frame at all.

I shall try to learn the method of quoting you have kindly quoted. The system adopted by Wright and Wehr in the description of Arabic vowel representation (which also applies to Urdu) is exactly what I learnt from my Primary School days. So, I will stick with that. In this system we were told..

alif (Arabic hamzah) zabar alif (Arabic alif) = aa

alif zer ye = ii

alif pesh vaa'o = uu

Replace alif (hamzah) with another consonant, and we have (for example in zakiiyah), ze zabar kaaf zer ye = zakii to which "y" as a consonant is added in the same way that we end up having "jamii" (jiim zabar miim zer ye) to which the consonant "l" is added. To both, then "ah" (the feminine termination) is appended. So, I see zakiiyah and jamiilah as identical word patterns.

* What UVR SaaHib does not know about prosody is not worth knowing!!


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> I am marginally versed in the art of prosody. If you take a look at the poetry link, a gentleman by the name of UVR* tells the readers that raziiyah and zakiiyah are of exactly the same vazn as "jamiilah" further down the poem. My own knowledge of Arabic (as meagre as it might be) tells me that all these three words are of the fa3iilah pattern. So, a word of the fa3aal pattern does not really come into the frame at all.


Thanks Qureshpor Sahib. I'll take a look at that link إن شاء الله.
I do not disagree that زكية and جميلة are of the same pattern from a Sarf perspective. However, that by itself should not determine transliteration or pronunciation. That is, I humbly take issue with your respected claim that their being ham-vazn points to the pronunciation raziiyah:





QURESHPOR said:


> I am simply stating that both these words are "ham-vazn" with "rafii3ah", "rafiiqah", "Jamiilah" and many many more. They are probably not pronounced by Urdu speakers as "raziiyah" and "zakiiyah" but in terms of accuracy of pronunciation, our literature points to this pronunciation.


---


QURESHPOR said:


> The system adopted by Wright and Wehr in the description of Arabic vowel representation (which also applies to Urdu) is exactly what I learnt from my Primary School days. So, I will stick with that. In this system we were told..
> 
> alif (Arabic hamzah) zabar alif (Arabic alif) = aa
> 
> alif zer ye = ii
> 
> alif pesh vaa'o = uu
> 
> Replace alif (hamzah) with another consonant, and we have (for example in zakiiyah), ze zabar kaaf zer ye = zakii to which "y" as a consonant is added in the same way that we end up having "jamii" (jiim zabar miim zer ye) to which the consonant "l" is added. To both, then "ah" (the feminine termination) is appended. So, I see zakiiyah and jamiilah as identical word patterns.


I believe the difference in pronunciation between -iiya- and -iyya- is something you agree with, as you mention here:





QURESHPOR said:


> I don't think it is impossible to say "-ii-yah" without turning it into "-iy-yah" (with a tashdiid).


That is we both agree that they are phonologically different. However, I think lukebeadgcf mentions that Wright and Wehr only adopt the transliteration scheme -iiya- vs -iyya- because they believe that they are phonologically identical.





lukebeadgcf said:


> This style reflects an assumption made by both William Wright and Hans Wehr that a long vowel followed by a consonant is phonologically identical to a short vowel followed by a geminated consonant, which in turns stems from the assumption that a long vowel is simply a short vowel followed by a sākin semi-consonant, ..


 That is, Wright and Wehr's choice of transliteration scheme stems from their interpretation of the word's pronunciation, not from the Sarf pattern of the word.


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> Without the tashdiid, in normal everyday speech, as in zakiiyah/zakiyyah, raziiyah/raziyyah!



Please refer to my answer in post 33.


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## Qureshpor

Abu Talha SaaHib. My replies might appear not totally consistent. It is not due to any uncertainty in my mind but probably more to do with my inadequate ability to put my point across.

 رضیہ and زکیہ type of word *may* have a wide latitude of pronunciayion amongst Urdu speaking people varying from (possibly but wrongly) "zak-yah"  to zakiya (za-ki-ya) to "zakiiya" (za-kii-ya). The final form, in my humble opinion, represents the word accurately, following exactly the pattern of "ja-mii-lah". The last syllable of both these words (excluding h) is ya and la, the y in ya being a consonant, just like l is a consonant in la. 

In our system of writing the -ii- vowel is represented by a zer and a ye. So, an alternative way of writing "za-kii-ya" in Roman incorporating our style would be "za-kiy-ya". The first ye is a (semi) vowel and the second one, as has already been stated, a consonant. The occurrence of two ye's by convention demands a shadda being placed. This, to my mind, does not imply that we have to pronounce the shadda. This is perhaps where we have a disagreement. For me someone who pronounces this words as "za-kii-ya" would/should pronounce "za-kiy-ya" in identical manner, because "kiy" = "kii". 

I was not aware of Wright and Wehr's understanding of the system until your post. As I have said before, this is how I have been taught from a very young age. 

I don't know if this post has made my thought pattern any clearer or not but I can't think of anything else that would be of any further help.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> ...As I have said before, this is how I have been taught from a very young age.


Thanks Qureshpor Saahib for your explanation. I guess I see where you're coming from. But regarding the system you've been taught: 


QURESHPOR said:


> ... is exactly what I learnt from my Primary School days. So, I will stick with that. In this system we were told..
> 
> ...Replace alif (hamzah) with another consonant, and we have (for example in zakiiyah), ze zabar kaaf zer ye = zakii to which "y" as a consonant is added in the same way that we end up having "jamii" (jiim zabar miim zer ye) to which the consonant "l" is added.


It certainly works for consonants, but yaa is a semi-consonant so I think that these rules may not apply "to the letter" (so to speak).

In any case, perhaps you are right that the discussion has reached a point of diminishing returns. It was an interesting topic nevertheless, and to be honest I need to study Urdu and Arabic phonology much more before I can assert anything beyond "I believe/I think such-and-such."


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> Re: post 41
> 
> Do you pronounce the following with tashdiid on ye also?
> 
> اِتِّفاقِیَّہ
> اِسْمِیَّہ
> اَشْرافِیَّہ
> اِعْتِرافِیَّہ
> یَومِیّہ
> 
> Not right or wrong, just how you say and hear these?


 We pronounce all of the above as well as رضیہ _raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah_ with the _shaddah_ on the 'ya' since they are originally so but commonly there are all heard without the _shaddah_. 

Both رضیہ_ raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah _can also be names or form part of a name / title, e.g. _raDhiyyah sulTaanah_ but commonly _raDhiyah_ _(= __razia_) and there was also Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah - pronounced _an-nafs az-zakiyyah_ (= The Pure Soul). The name is of course Arabic but we always say _az-zak*iyy*ah (or az-zak*iiy*ah, _depending on your transliteration convention for the _tashdiid_), even when speaking Urdu, i.e. always with the _shaddah_ as indicated.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> We pronounce all of the above as well as رضیہ _raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah_ with the _shaddah_ on the 'ya' since they are originally so but commonly there are all heard without the _shaddah_.
> 
> Both رضیہ_ raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah _can also be names or form part of a name / title, e.g. _raDhiyyah sulTaanah_ but commonly _raDhiyah_ _(= __razia_) and there was also Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah - pronounced _an-nafs az-zakiyyah_ (= The Pure Soul). The name is of course Arabic but we always say _az-zak*iyy*ah (or az-zak*iiy*ah, _depending on your transliteration convention for the _tashdiid_), even when speaking Urdu, i.e. always with the _shaddah_ as indicated.



Faylasoof SaaHib, thank you for your input. To summarise and just taking "zakiiyah/zakiyyah" as an example, you are saying that..

1) You and your family (and of course others too) pronounce it with a shaddah

2) The word is commonly (amongst Urdu speakers) pronounced as "zakiya".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> We pronounce all of the above as well as رضیہ _raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah_ with the _shaddah_ on the 'ya' since they are originally so but commonly there are all heard without the _shaddah_.
> 
> Both رضیہ_ raDhiiyah / raDhiyyah_ and زکیہ _zakiiyah / zakiyyah _can also be names or form part of a name / title, e.g. _raDhiyyah sulTaanah_ but commonly _raDhiyah_ _(= __razia_) and there was also Muhammad al-Nafs al-Zakiyyah - pronounced _an-nafs az-zakiyyah_ (= The Pure Soul). The name is of course Arabic but we always say _az-zak*iyy*ah (or az-zak*iiy*ah, _depending on your transliteration convention for the _tashdiid_), even when speaking Urdu, i.e. always with the _shaddah_ as indicated.
> 
> 
> 
> Faylasoof SaaHib, thank you for your input. To summarise and just taking "zakiiyah/zakiyyah" as an example, you are saying that..
> 
> 1) You and your family (and of course others too) pronounce it with a shaddah
> 
> 2) The word is commonly (amongst Urdu speakers) pronounced as "zakiya".
Click to expand...

 Yes QP SaaHib, we indeed say it with a shaddah - زکیہ = "zakiiyah/zakiyyah". 

For no. 2, as written in the Latin script, I would read it as "z_aa_kiya / zaakiya(h)" . This is used as a name for girls. 

We distinguish between "zakiiyah/zakiyyah" and "z_aa_kiya / zaakiya(h)".


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