# Society: Do you think a single National language is good?



## macta123

Hello,
 Do you think that there should be only  a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


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## maxiogee

I thinbk both systems have their advantages.
And - deftly sidestepping your question - I think in Europe it is going to not be important soon. The slow but certain progress towards a unified Europe - a la the United States - is going to give us no single "national" language but a vast array of 'official' languages and 'recognisd' langauges.


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## heidita

In Spain a very important discussion is going on about this topic. 

I do not think it is reasonable to "impose" a language as it is apparently done in other parts of the country, where two official languages cohabitate. In Cataluña the Catalán is accepted as an official language but spoken by a minority whereas Spanish is spoken by so many millions I have lost count. However, the language is imposed by the local governement and children have apparently great difficulty in getting school education in Spanish, which sounds weird but is a fact.

So, I think it is necessary to make a ruling in this matter and I am definitely *for *a unification of the language. 

Yes, French in France, German in German, *Spanish in Spain* for official and administrative purpose and and not favouring local languages in disadvantage of the vast majority.


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## gato2

heidita said:
			
		

> In Spain a very important discussion is going on about this topic.
> 
> 
> Yes, French in France, German in German, *Spanish in Spain* for official and administrative purpose and and not favouring local languages in disadvantage of the vast majority.


 

Estoy de acuerdo que no es bueno imponer el catalan como unica lengua de Cataluña pero si creo que es bueno incentivar el bilinguismo y la persona que desea realizar sus tramites administrativos en catalan o en castellano  pueda hacerlo en el idioma que desea.

Asi mismo en la escuela creo que seria bueno intercalar ambas lenguas. Por ejemplo, unos años impartir unas asignaturas en catalan y otras en castellano y el siguiente hacerlo al reves.

En España se hablan varias lenguas y debemos interpretarlo como una riqueza y no como un defecto.


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## Residente Calle 13

The United States does have a single national language but it doesn't have an official one. I think the two issues are seperate. Individual states in the union may choose to have English as the only official language or other languages but it's usually only the official recognition of a historical fact.

Some multilingual countries do quite well, like Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, and Spain. I think having one language that everybody speaks is less important in places where there is one common identity.


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## Ilmo

In Finland we have two official languages, the Finnish and the Swedish. About 6 % of the Finns speak Swedish as their mother tongue. The percentage has been declining all the time because in most of the mixed marriages the Finnish will be chosen as the home language.
There are plenty of people who say that the bilingualism is a cultural benefit, and that is true, that we have two different cultures as to the literature, but one could also they that, in a small country, that means dividing the resources. In any case, bilingualism causes a lot of extra costs to the society, because everything must be translated and pirnted in two languages, etc.
Earlier, more than half a century ago, there were lingual disputes, but nowadays the relations between those two language groups are quite peaceful.
In my opinion, a country with only one official country is preferable, though of course there can by any number of language groups as far as they do not direct to isolationism between the ethnic groups of the population.


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## optimistique

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Some multilingual countries do quite well, like Belgium ... I think having one language that everybody speaks is less important in places where there is one common identity.



Not that this is the case in Belgium. I feel that Belgium is two countries: the Dutch speaking part and the French speaking one. There's certainly not a common identity between those two. It's impossible to think in this case that there even IS the possibility of having a single National language there; it would mean a separation of the two, I'm sure of that. 

I think it depends on the situation of the specific country if a single National Language is good. 
I agree with others that a minority language should always be seen as an enrichment and never as a bad thing. I think the most practical thing would be a single national language, with regional minority languages as well, but it's often very difficult to keep a minority language strongly alive generation after generation, when there is an overruling national language. 

In case of a real bi- or even multilingual country, where they have an even status, I feel that the people of the country have to try their best to know the other language(s) too, and not ignore it or boycot it or whatever, but of course that depends completely on the situation of the country and the relationship of the two parts. 

I guess it also depends on what you think is more important. From an economical point of view, a monolingual country is certainly more appealing, but from my linguistical point of view, a bi- or multilangual country is much more interesting


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## cirrus

For me what seems an apparently good idea has wreaked havoc through European history in the last couple of centuries.  Speaking one language all too easily ends up getting mixed up with wierd ideas about race.  Take a tour through European history since say 1750, look at the conflict that has happened around Alsace, South Tirol, Ireland, various interpretations over what constitutes Germany, Poland.  

More recently the conflict in what was used to be called Yugoslavia ought to serve as a reminder that this stuff can be dynamite and mannah from heaven for demagogues.


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## danielfranco

As already commented by Residente, in the USA they have side-stepped the issue for many years. There is a law that requires that every single document used for governmental puposes must be in English, but it still up to individual states to choose their "official" language. In a country where (according to the last census) over three hundred languages are spoken, the "English First" crowd still has an uphill battle to wage.
Perhaps the EU has a similar situation...
Regardless, like Cirrus said, this is always a loaded question, whether or not it's "good" (as in, expedient) to have a National "official" language, it always seems to spiral into a debate about human and civic rights.
Dan F


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## maxiogee

cirrus said:
			
		

> Speaking one language all too easily ends up getting mixed up with wierd ideas about race.  Take a tour through European history since say 1750, look at the conflict that has happened around Alsace, South Tirol, Ireland, various interpretations over what constitutes Germany, Poland.



I am dumbstruck that anyone, let alone a Briton, could think that race (in some strange way 'inspired' by language) has anything to do with what "the conflict" in Ireland!  

Back to the drawingboard, cirrus.


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## heidita

Daniel, I would vote that English first in the States is a good idea.

This should be the same in Spain, but it isn't. As another forer mentioned, in Cataluña the fight for the usage of their own language has gone so far, that in schools only Spanish speaking pupils are in clear disadvantage. There are translators everywhere, in courtrooms, in politics etc. I think this is ridiculous when you live in a country where everybody understands and speaks Spanish. One thing is to sponsor the own language of the area and another quite different is to impose it on other people. 
In other matters, the same problem has arisen with tourism. In Mallorca, I'm told, menus are only written in German or English, so much so, that the Spanish government had to fine restaurants for not using Spanish at all. My friend was in Tenerife and the same happened, the waiter had to explain the menu, as it was written only in English. 
My sincere opinion is that language should unify people (like on this forum),  not seperate them. How would you have liked me to write this post only in German? I wouldn't have got to half of you. The same language makes a country strong.

So, Spanish *first *in Spain, English *first* in the States, German *first *in Germany (even though in my opinion this problem does not exist in Germany)


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## mansio

The problem is not just one language spoken alongside another language. The problem in bi- or multilingual countries is that of a dominant language stifling a weaker language. It is the case in Catalunya. Spanish in Catalunya is not the language of a neighbor as French is, but it is a dominant language against which Catalan has to be protected. 
In Belgium French and Flemish (sorry one must say Dutch now) are on a strict equal level.
The usual process with a dominant language is the slow disappearance of the weaker language. It is the case in Alsace where I live. Alsatian is not protected against French and is slowly spoken by less and less people.


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## cirrus

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I am dumbstruck that anyone, let alone a Briton, could think that race (in some strange way 'inspired' by language) has anything to do with what "the conflict" in Ireland!
> 
> Back to the drawingboard, cirrus.


 
I didn't mean the question of language in Ireland was a racial question, what I meant was that during the 20C in Central Europe speaking certain languages became associated in certain people's minds with race.  

The translation of placenames and prohibition of speaking indigenous languages has been a shared feature in Ireland, Wales, S Tirol in the past.


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## mansio

I think the prohibition of speaking indigenous languages went together with the non-translation of placenames rather than their translation.
Except in Italy where the German names were changed into Italian names.


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## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> Daniel, I would vote that English first in the States is a good idea.
> 
> This should be the same in Spain, but it isn't. As another forer mentioned, in Cataluña the fight for the usage of their own language has gone so far, that in schools only Spanish speaking pupils are in clear disadvantage. There are translators everywhere, in courtrooms, in politics etc. I think this is ridiculous when you live in a country where everybody understands and speaks Spanish. One thing is to sponsor the own language of the area and another quite different is to impose it on other people.
> In other matters, the same problem has arisen with tourism. In Mallorca, I'm told, menus are only written in German or English, so much so, that the Spanish government had to fine restaurants for not using Spanish at all. My friend was in Tenerife and the same happened, the waiter had to explain the menu, as it was written only in English.
> My sincere opinion is that language should unify people (like on this forum),  not seperate them. How would you have liked me to write this post only in German? I wouldn't have got to half of you. The same language makes a country strong.
> 
> So, Spanish *first *in Spain, English *first* in the States, German *first *in Germany (even though in my opinion this problem does not exist in Germany)



It's not that easy... if you eliminate a lenguage you eliminate a culture. I've been using both lenguages (spanish and catalan) with no problems, as well as about most of the catalans and I love to do it. 

I would love to speak german, french, italian, english, etc because it's part of the culture of each country and its history I think that if you understand the lenguage you can understand them better. What they do, how they do it, why they do it...

Just my opinion... 

Mei


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## JerseyRich

I agree with the other people that say
French in France. Germany in Germany. Spanish in Spain and so on.  It is good to have an identity.


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## Mei

JerseyRich said:
			
		

> I agree with the other people that say
> French in France. Germany in Germany. Spanish in Spain and so on.  It is good to have an identity.



If you don't want catalan you're stealing my identity, what about that? What am I supposed to do?

Mei


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## heidita

Well, it used to be like this, as in Franco's time Catalán was forbidden.
But now it is quite the other way round, the weak language is trying to stifle the strong one, as the Catalán government is taking things too far, as to oblige the use of the *Catalán only,* so to speak. I don't think this problem exists in everyday life, as the people, I understand, change to Spanish, when Catalán is not understood. It is more a political thing. The last court decission lies still on the table, obliging a school to allow a child to receive her education in Spanish. I think this is incredible, how is it possible that a child has no garantee to recieve an education in the language of the countrythe child lives in, that is ,of the vast majority? As I understand it in Cataluña al school subjects are taught in Catalán and Spanish is ,sort of, taught as a second language. So immigrants have a real hard time, not only foreigners, but even Spanish immigrants from other parts of the country.


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## Mei

Hi there again,



> Well, it used to be like this, as in Franco's time Catalán was forbidden.


Do you want all that again? Are you sure? 




> obliging a school to allow a child to receive her education in Spanish


Where did you read/heard that? I didn't know it. And even if it's true, there are a lot of schools in Catalonia and you can choose the one you like. 




> As I understand it in Cataluña al school subjects are taught in Catalán and Spanish is ,sort of, taught as a second language.


When I was at school I use both lenguages with different subjects. I studied both lenguages. I'm proud of it. And if one day I have children I want them speaking both lenguages as well as me. 



> So immigrants have a real hard time, not only foreigners, but even Spanish immigrants from other parts of the country.


But heidita please if I speak English and I go to live to Holland I must learn Dutch even I can use English, right?

Cheers,

Mei


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## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> Daniel, I would vote that English first in the States is a good idea.



Thank you, but we don't need your vote. In 200 plus years we haven't needed an official language. People who come here to stay understand that it probably makes sense to learn English and those who can do. If it ain't broken why fix it?

We don't need to legislate common sense.


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## cirrus

mansio said:
			
		

> I think the prohibition of speaking indigenous languages went together with the non-translation of placenames rather than their translation.
> Except in Italy where the German names were changed into Italian names.


 
Certainly in Wales and S Tirol some names were translated, or had some form placed on them which fitted English/ German phonetics, others replaced altogether.


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## AmoL'italiano

oy... with all the spanish-speaking people in the united states, i think that kids should be brought up bilingual in schools and the like... it would make things easier... well actually- if i had it my way, italian would eb the universal language. hehe


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## Outsider

macta123 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Do you think that there should be only  a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


If you take into account the population sizes of India, France and Germany, I think you will find that the difference in language policy isn't that great.


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## oscarlami

I think that people should be free to choose the language they want to speak, even if that is against the "unity" of the country.

I live in Spain and I speak both Galician and Spanish. 80% of the population of Galicia speak galician as first language. Why should we embrace an alien language and forget our own?

A language is something that we inherit from our ancestors. It is a unique and wonderful creation that took hundreds of years to develop. It is like a piece of artwork where many generations of human beings have contributed. 

Languages, as we all know, are not only vehicles of communication. There is more to it than that. They reflect the particular way of thinking and feeling of their speakers. 

We all have the experience, as seen in this forum, of “idioms” or expressions or even phrasal verbs that have no translation to other languages.

Should we loose that?


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## heidita

Oscar, are you refering to Spanish, the language spoken in *your *country, which is *Spain,* an alien language? Or what language are you referring to?


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## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> Oscar, are you refering to Spanish, the language spoken in *your *country, which is *Spain,* an alien language? Or what language are you referring to?



You must think that spanish is a secondary lenguage for me and I guess for Oscar.

Mei


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## Fernando

Catalan is the mother tongue for 50% of Catalans and a similar percentage in Valencia and Balearic Islands (with their local varieties). I would say the percentage is greater in Baleares. In Basque Country the percentage would be around 20%. Galicia is more tricky since I would say 100% of population can speak both languages but I can hardly hear Galician in Coruña while most people mix it with Spanish many times.

I would say it would be maybe desirable (?) to have only language for administrative purposes but it is not expectable that to happen. The same in European Community. So, I would ask only for respect for all languages spoken for a big community. I would not ask for Spanish first in places with other languages, the same way I am against for the Catalan first policy in Catalonia.


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## cuchuflete

I've been consciously staying out of this conversation, as I was weighing the benefits and unhappy consequences of many sides --there are more than two--of the arguments.

For my own country, the US, there is a single national language.  It has not been legislated.  We have no official language on a national level.  As a matter of practical reality, most immigrants try to acquire a working knowledge of English.  Their children grow up speaking English, and perhaps one or more other languages learned in the home and neighborhood.
This unplanned, unlegislated system works pretty well.  Some states, I believe New Mexico is one of them, have laws that say that both English and Spanish are official languages of that state.  As far as I know, this does not result in all official documents being printed in two languages, nor does it legally require completely bi-lingual public schools.  Perhaps a resident can help out with more detail.
The US, for the most part, is linguistically homogenized.  This works here.  I would not, therefore, try to export the model to a country which has historically been multi-lingual, such as Canada or Spain.
Such multi-lingual countries have conflicting targets.  For the speaker of the majority language, it's all a matter of convenience and costs.  It terms of costs and convenience for the majority, they are right to propose a single, national language.  However, for speakers of a regional language or regional dialect (let's not try too hard to define either 'language' or 'dialect' here; rather, let's just say "what people speak" and stick to the thread topic.) there are other very important factors.  These include history and culture, at a regional, local, and neighborhood and family level.  
Such cultural factors have tremendous value, immeasurable in my opinion, and cannot be compared with the economic measurements of extra printing costs for two or more languages.  
So, is such circumstances, I believe in a bi-lingual arrangement, such as that to be found in Catalunia or Galicia.
These areas have a local culture, of which language is an important part.  It should not be surpressed for the economic or other convenience of someone in another part of the country.  At the same time, these geographic and linguistic and cultural areas are obviously part of a larger political entity, a country with a national language.  The answer is simple from a distance:  Both the local and national languages are valid and acceptable for use.

Some countries have tried...with unfortunate success...to squeeze out regional languages, in favor of a single national language.  Such 'success' is achieved at the terrible cost of killing part of a national cultural heritage.


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## Residente Calle 13

The official state language of Montana is English. There was a big deal made of making English the official language of the state to protect it from the encroachment of Spanish.

Montana...hmmm...I wonder what language the word Montana comes from. If you look at the state seal you will see "Oro y Plata" which looks suspiciously like Spanish to me. They must have overlooked that or maybe all that hot air made the state seal hard to read.

Much less than one percent of Montana speaks Spanish and if Spanish were made co-official much less then one percent of Montana would speak Spanish and if Montana had no official language  much less then one percent of Montana would speak Spanish.

In Montana, it's much ado about nothing.

I don't know much about New Mexico but I suspect that the fact they officially recognized the fact that in that state, which is not really new and not really Mexico, many people speak Spanish. You know, states also have state birds, state trees, state songs, and even state insects which are vital to our political, social, and economic life. In New York, the state insect is the lady bug. What would New York be if we didn't have the lady bug as our state insect?

I think we don't need an official langauge in the US. We have common sense (at least when it comes to that issue). Some square states in the middle of nowhere have nothing better to do than pass silly laws but it's neither here nor there. The national language is English. The official language could be Martian for all I care. But maybe that's not such a bad idea. Our president is not perceived to handle English very well and maybe he'd do better in Martian. He does, after all, have a few years left before the democrats blow another national election.


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## Outsider

With my apologies to *Residente Calle 13* and the other Americans here, the _legal officiality_ of a language always sounds like an empty discussion to this foreigner. Whether or not a country (or state) has an official language, every country _uses and promotes_ some language(s) over all others. That may not make it an official language _de jure_, but it certainly does _de facto_. I put it to you that English is the _de facto_ official language of the whole U.S.A. Enshrining it or not enshrining it on the legislation makes no practical difference.


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> With my apologies to *Residente Calle 13* and the other Americans here, the _legal officiality_ of a language always sounds like an empty discussion to this foreigner. Whether or not a country (or state) has an official language, every country _uses and promotes_ some language(s) over all others. That may not make it an official language _de jure_, but it certainly does _de facto_. I put it to you that English is the _de facto_ official language of the whole U.S.A. Enshrining it or not enshrining it on the legislation makes no practical difference.



No need to apologize. I don't think there is anything wrong with what you said and it's quite accurate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my school teaches kids in English because that's what most kids around here speak and kids who come here from Russia are expected to learn English because it's plain ole common sense. We really don't promote English as much as we just do it because it makes sense and has been making sense for a really long time. I mean, what options do we have? Most people here already speak English and most of the first settlers were English speakers. Would it make any sense any other way?

There is no law that I am aware of that says PS 260 has to teach in English or that the Senate has to debate bills in English but it just seems to make more sense to do it that way than the alternative.


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> We really don't promote English as much as we just do it because it makes sense and has been making sense for a really long time. I mean, what options do we have? Most people here already speak English and most of the first settlers were English speakers.


The government uses English in its paperwork and in its institutions, including schools. Most media are in English. If that's not promoting English, I don't know what is.
Now, you can tell me that this particular language is the one people want to promote. But that's a different matter.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Would it make any sense any other way?


I hear that a significant portion of the American population has Spanish as its mother tongue. In parts of the country where Spanish is very widely used (not Montana), it might make sense to use Spanish in public affairs. Since the U.S. do not have an official language, in theory that would be possible -- but in practice there's a lot of resistence to Spanish, isn't there?


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## Residente Calle 13

Well, a great deal of our government works on tradition. The government does use English in its paperwork and in its institutions but that's tradition. There actually was some debate about making German the official language of the US and even some other languages but they decided that since most people spoke English it would make sense to do stuff in English because that way at least most people, if not all people, understood what the heck was going on.

I can write a letter to my Senator in Swahili. There is no law against that. But that's not very practical. Senator Clinton could make her speeches in Tibetan. But I suspect she won't get much legislation passed that way. Plus, she doesn't even speak Tibetan. Like most Americans, she's monolingual English. 

It's just not very practical in a country where less than about 15 percent of the people even speak another language to choose another option over English.

Spanish speakers in the US are concentrated in georgraphical areas. So even if all of Manhattan spoke only Spanish it would still be incredible stupid to do government business in Spanish in our state capital Albany or in other towns in NY State where less than one percent of the population speaks Spanish. And there are no places in the US like that hypothetical Manhattan. Even in places where many people speak Spanish, many people also speak English.

There is alot of resistence to Spanish but most of it is due to racism or other forms of stupidity. Most immigrants come here for a better life and English is part of that better life. It might be wonderful, fair, unfair, unholy, or whatever, but that's just how it works.

My father came here because there was a market here that gave him a job. That market also demands that he speaks English if he wants to get ahead. This country is not a salad bar where you pick and choose. If you like America and the prosperity it provides and you want to move on up in life, you just have to learn English and there is no way to legislate around that.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> I hear that a significant portion of the American population has Spanish as its mother tongue. In parts of the country where Spanish is very widely used (not Montana), it might make sense to use Spanish in public affairs. Since the U.S. do not have an official language, in theory that would be possible -- but in practice there's a lot of resistence to Spanish, isn't there?



There are supposedly about 30 million Spanish speakers in the US.  That's close to 10% of the total population.  Whether all of these people have SP as their mother tongue, I do not know, but they speak the language, in some form, at home.

Montana at one time had a fairly large Basque-speaking immigrant population...but that should not be confused with Spanish!


As to the use of Spanish in public affairs...that's a little more complicated, as the Spanish speaking population is-
-often bi-lingual, hence not in need of two versions of public discourse and publications
-quite widely scattered throughout the country.  There are areas of concentration of Spanish speakers where your proposal may make sense, but certainly not throughout the entire country.

Most of the resistence to Spanish may be found in the areas with the most Spanish speakers.  That's illogical, but understandable human behavior.  In the state where I live, I think Spanish speakers are far less than 1/2% of the population, so there is little sense in conducting official business in that language.  We do hava a significant population of French speakers, so major highway signs, for example, are in both English and French.


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## Outsider

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> My father came here because there was a market here that gave him a job. That market also demands that he speaks English if he wants to get ahead. This country is not a salad bar where you pick and choose. If you like America and the prosperity it provides and you want to move on up in life, you just have to learn English and there is no way to legislate around that.


Or to not legislate...


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## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> Or to not legislate...



I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean. Please expand a little bit on that


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## cuchuflete

US census bureau data, year=2000

"  Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2000  
                 Maine, 0.7% New Mexico, 42.1%   Total US, 12.5%  "

We cannot assume that "Hispanic or Latino origin" is a precise equivalent to "Spanish speaking", but it gives a general notion.  

Note, however, that many of the "Hispanic" citizens of New Mexico are from families that have been there for hundreds of years, and are fully fluent in English, whether or not they understand Spanish.


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## Outsider

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> There are supposedly about 30 million Spanish speakers in the US.  That's close to 10% of the total population.  Whether all of these people have SP as their mother tongue, I do not know, but they speak the language, in some form, at home.


Thanks for the numbers. If accurate, that's three times the population of Portugal. If the E.U. worked on the same principles as the U.S., I'd have to switch to another language (which one, I can't figure out). 



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> As to the use of Spanish in public affairs...that's a little more complicated, as the Spanish speaking population is-
> -often bi-lingual, hence not in need of two versions of public discourse and publications
> -quite widely scattered throughout the country.  There are areas of concentration of Spanish speakers where your proposal may make sense, but certainly not throughout the entire country.


I am not saying switching to Spanish, mind you. Just making it available to those who happen to be more comfortable with Spanish than with English. Obviously, the majority of the U.S. will continue to speak English for a very long time, perhaps forever.
And what about Spanish is schools? What's the landscape like in the U.S.?


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## cuchuflete

More grist for the linguistic mill: The Commonwealth (State) of Massachusettes has about six and a half or seven million residents. More than one million of them are Portuguese speakers. Yet I've never heard of any attempt to make Portuguese an official language there.

1990 data: Portuguese speakers in Massachusetts ~ 1.050.000
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...portuguese+speakers"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


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## Residente Calle 13

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> US census bureau data, year=2000
> 
> "  Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2000
> Maine, 0.7% New Mexico, 42.1%   Total US, 12.5%  "
> 
> We cannot assume that "Hispanic or Latino origin" is a precise equivalent to "Spanish speaking", but it gives a general notion.
> 
> Note, however, that many of the "Hispanic" citizens of New Mexico are from families that have been there for hundreds of years, and are fully fluent in English, whether or not they understand Spanish.



I would venture to say that even if, God forbid, a strange virus killed everybody in the US who was not Hispanic, it probably, probably, would still not make sense to make Spanish the official language. I have a feeling that bilinguals and monolinguals-English outnumber monolingual Spanish-speakers among this country's hispanics.


I think there are A LOT of Hispanics who feel A LOT more comfortable with English than Spanish. I would not be surprised if the percentage of Hispanics who would suffer if the US was Spanish only is higher than the ones who would suffer under English only.

I grew up speaking Spanish at home but I can tell you that if my school had switched to Spanish-only somewhere around the the fourth grade my marks would have *plummeted*.


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## cuchuflete

Hi Outsider,
I cannot give you precise numbers...the US Census bureau web site is a fine source if you want to dig through their databases...but Spanish is by far the most popular "foreign" language of all those taught in US schools.  Fifty years ago it was French, and Spanish was probably in third place, after FR and German.  Today it is very widely taught.


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## heidita

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Well, a great deal of our government works on tradition. The government does use English in its paperwork and in its institutions but that's tradition. There actually was some debate about making German the official language of the US and even some other languages but they decided that since most people spoke English it would make sense to do stuff in English because that way at least most people, if not all people, understood what the heck was going on.
> 
> I can write a letter to my Senator in Swahili. There is no law against that. But that's not very practical. Senator Clinton could make her speeches in Tibetan. But I suspect she won't get much legislation passed that way. Plus, she doesn't even speak Tibetan. Like most Americans, she's monolingual English.
> 
> It's just not very practical in a country where less than about 15 percent of the people even speak another language to choose another option over English.
> 
> *Spanish speakers in the US are concentrated in georgraphical areas. So even if all of Manhattan spoke only Spanish it would still be incredible stupid to do government business in Spanish in our state capital Albany or in other towns in NY State where less than one percent of the population speaks Spanish. And there are no places in the US like that hypothetical* Manhattan. Even in places where many people speak Spanish, many people also speak English.
> 
> There is alot of resistence to Spanish but most of it is due to racism or other forms of stupidity. Most immigrants come here for a better life and English is part of that better life. It might be wonderful, fair, unfair, unholy, or whatever, but that's just how it works.
> 
> My father came here because there was a market here that gave him a job. That market also demands that he speaks English if he wants to get ahead. This country is not a salad bar where you pick and choose. If you like America and the prosperity it provides and you want to move on up in life, you just have to learn English and there is no way to legislate around that.


 
But that is exactly what I am talking about as in Cataluña official business and everything is done in Catalán. "Only" Spanish speakers need translators in their own country. Children are taught in "Catalán first" (I think they receive Spanish class like English classes) and the ones who don't understand, let's not forget the thoudands of immigrants from other parts of the country, so much the worse for them. And all this while ther is a population of 7% of Catalán speakers and a more or less a 5% of Galician speakers. So why does the rest of the population have to adapt to the inmense minority?
I also have *no understanding whatsover* that Spaniards think that Spanish is their second language. For me this is just overpowering.
I think everything should be done to understand each other, like we are doing on this forum, and not to set other people apart for lack of language knowledge.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> But that is exactly what I am talking about as in Cataluña official business and everything is done in Catalán. "Only" Spanish speakers need translators in their own country. Children are taught in "Catalán first" (I think they receive Spanish class like English classes) and the ones who don't understand, let's not forget the thoudands of immigrants from other parts of the country, so much the worse for them. And all this while ther is a population of 7% of Catalán speakers and a more or less a 5% of Galician speakers. So why does the rest of the population have to adapt to the inmense minority?
> I also have *no understanding whatsover* that Spaniards think that Spanish is their second language. For me this is just overpowering.
> I think everything should be done to understand each other, like we are doing on this forum, and not to set other people apart for lack of language knowledge.



I would love to discuss this issue with you but I have never been to Catalunya and have no idea how many people there speak Catalá or how the schools there work.

The only thing I would like to point out is that my father came to the US, a country where he *knew* English is spoken, from another country where English is not spoken. 

Without knowing much about the History of Spain, I don't think you can compare his sutuation to Catalunya. I wouldn't say that Catalaners are foreigners who came to Spain from another country with the full knowledge that Spanish was the language of their host country and now expect their host country to acomodate their linguistic preferences. Maybe I'm wrong but it's apples and oranges as far as I can see.


----------



## cuchuflete

The Spanish speakers who moved to Catalunya, were they to follow the US immigrant example, would learn Català, the pre-existing local language.


----------



## Fernando

With the following difference:

- Catalonia is a part of a greater state, called Spain, where the lingua franca is Spanish.

- They are as much as 50% of total population.

- They do not need to learn Catalan, at least in major cities, since most of the jobs involves dealing with Catalan-speakers understanding Spanish and Spanish-speakers. Press is Spanish-written...


----------



## fenixpollo

heidita said:
			
		

> So why does the rest of the population have to adapt to the inmense minority?


 If the "immense minority" is part of society, then society needs to accomodate the people in it.  

All of this talk about preserving "identity" by having a monolingual society requires an *Us vs. Them mentality*.  The "Us" in this equation is whoever feels that they have a right to dominate the society with their values and culture, excluding any group that they feel to be outside "Us".

One of the things that makes me most proud to live in the U.S.A. is that our national identity is based on the fact that everyone who lives here came from somewhere else, at one time or another.  It's the *diversity* of culture, ethnicity, history and, yes, language that *is* *our national identity*.  To say "English Only" or "English First" would be to deny that identity.

Any pluralistic society (and in our global economy, that means practically _every_ society) must celebrate its diversity and accomodate speakers of various languages.


----------



## Outsider

Fernando said:
			
		

> - They are as much as 50% of total population.
> 
> - They do not need to learn Catalan, at least in major cities, since most of the jobs involves dealing with Catalan-speakers understanding Spanish and Spanish-speakers. Press is Spanish-written...


Given that, I don't see how people can complain that Catalan is being imposed on Spanish-speaking Spaniards...


----------



## Fernando

Because they do not need it in the PRIVATE side of their lives. They have Spanish-spoken films, businesses, jobs and press because society demand it. 

But in the PUBLIC side, Spanish is not spoken in the Parliament, some (not all) forms are only in Catalan, learning is only in Catalan (Spanish more or less a second language), city names, streets and roads only in Catalan. The Catalan Government strongly subsidise only Catalan-speaking media (to begin with, three TV channels).

Of course, nobody is aiming at the head of the people telling them to speak in Catalan.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Hmmm. Looking from the outside, and I admit that I know little about Spain and I have never been there but, it doesn't look like having more than one language has stopped Spain from _kicking major ass_ in the last thirty years (pardon my language). I think the story of Spain is one of great hope for the rest of the world. I don't where to start! The transition into a real democratic society, EU membership, incredible economic growth, amazing social changes etc. etc. etc.


Maybe it's because my grandmother left Spain as an immigrant but its hard for me to think of a country that has made more progress in just about any aspect of life in the history of the world in such short time. And not only progress! It hasn't gotten only better, it's gotten really good.

The day that I was born, Spain was considered a poor country, a backwards society, with a terrible government. People left in droves for a better life. Today is Spain is considered a *rich *country, one of the most fair and progressive societies, with one of the few "good" governments. People *come *in droves for a better life.

People *GO* to Spain to escape political persecution and poverty. Do you know how ridiculous that would have sounded the day I was born?

With all of the problems I read about, it still seems like having more than one language doesn't really seem to have fazed you guys at all.


----------



## cuchuflete

Perhaps Fernando, Mei, and others who know more than I do could comment on a question that I believe is pertinent here.

Before Franco suppressed the use of Català, did most people in Catalunya speak it?  Was there a migration of Spanish speakers to Barcelona and surroundings during the period when Spanish was imposed on that region?

Are the local authorities attempting to suppress Spanish, or to re-establish Catalunya as a bi-lingual region, following the artificial suppression of one of the primary languages spoken there before the dictadura?


----------



## Sulizhen

Since I do not know the real situation of Catalan vs. Spanish (sigh), I'm just going to talk about Galician. I was born and raised in Galicia, and I can speak Spanish and Galician fluently. Unfortunately, when I was at Primary and Secondary School, Galician language was considered a kind of language just spoken by yokels. With the passing time, people got used to the idea of the importance of having that "second" (which, in many cases, is not really a second one but a first one) language since, as many people mentioned before, a language is not just a communication vehicle, but it is also linked to a culture, an identity and a way of interpreting the world that surrounds you. By "losing" a language, no matter how many speakers it has, you lose a little piece of culture -literature, cinema, oral tradition, way of life...- too. Don't get me wrong, I don't have -and have never had- a great "patriotic feeling", "homeland love sense" or whatever you want to call it. I just think that Galician, just like Catalan and Basque, don't deserve being underestimated, specially if you take into account their origins -well, let's consider Basque a special case since its origin is unknown. Catalan and Galician, in spite of the thinking of many people, are not dialects. They are languages that developed parallel to Spanish.
In the case of Galician, Spanish language has been imposed upon Galician many times through History until Galician reached the co-official status in my region. 
With all of this I just mean that I do not consider Spanish as an alien language, but I don't think of Galician as my second language either. Although it may sound utopic, it requires efforts and respect not to dismiss a language just because "an immense minority" uses it (sigh x 2). Bilingualism may exist. And one must bear in mind this situation when he/she moves to a region with two official languages...
Of course that, for a Goverment, it's easier and cheaper to keep only one single language for the whole country, but if we are not speaking in terms of echonomy and so on...


----------



## oscarlami

I absolutely agree with Sulizhen. I do not believe in "countries" or "borders" as such. 

I fail to understand why, based on the political existence of those borders, some people think they have a right to impose their language to others.

Do we not all believe in freedom? Why impose?

And it is maybe not by accident that the biggest economic and cultural development of Spain in the past couple of centuries coincides with the recognition of its own cultural reality.

As other people said in the forum, during the Franco regime the government tried to deny the cultural reality of the country both in political and cultural terms.

The acceptance of political pluralism (democracy) and cultural pluralism (regional languages) is the biggest success in Spanish history in centuries. 

The consequences of that are there to be seen. No one doubts of the progress and economic growth of Spain in the past 30 years.


----------



## Mei

Hi Cuchu,



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Before Franco suppressed the use of Català, did most people in Catalunya speak it?


 Yes but we had to did it at home or in secrecy  because we were allowed to use it. I found this you’ll understand it better:

"As in the rest of Spain, the Franco era (1939–1975) in Catalonia saw the annulment of democratic liberties, the prohibition and persecution of parties, the rise of thoroughgoing censorship, and the banning of all leftist institutions. In Catalonia, it also meant the annulment of the statute of autonomy, the banning of virtually all specifically Catalan institutions and traditions, and the complete suppression of the Catalan-language press, education and any other public use of the language."

The catalan was called "el idioma de estar por casa" because it was just spoken in homes.



> Was there a migration of Spanish speakers to Barcelona and surroundings during the period when Spanish was imposed on that region?


 Yes, a lot of people came here but not only for the lenguange, they came here because they needed to work. 



> Are the local authorities attempting to suppress Spanish, or to re-establish Catalunya as a bi-lingual region, following the artificial suppression of one of the primary languages spoken there before the dictadura?


 I don’t hope so, I’m proud to be bilingual. I just want the right to choose the lenguage I want to speak. My native lenguage is catalan because is what I speak at home and I speak spanish as well as catalan. 

As I said in another post when I was at school I use both lenguages with different subjects. I studied both lenguages.And if one day I have children I want them speaking both lenguages as well as me.
 
Mei


----------



## heidita

Well, we cannot consider Galicia's case on the same level as Cataluña as in Galicia this *Gallego* *ONLY *sistem does not exist.
I understand that people feel strongly about their language, so I understand that people fight for the right to talk in their local language, which in Cataluña's case was forbidden under Franco. 
But then, as Fernando says, there is no logic, whatsoever, to impose a local language, spoken by 7% of the population to the rest of the country. Catalán needs to be translated everywhere in Spain, schools, as Fernando pointed out, teach in *Catalán ONLY*, which is incredible, considering that we are living in *Spain,* where Cataluña is a region, just like Andalusia or Galicia. In Galicia school subjects are taught in Spanish the national language,like everywhere, including the Basque country, which in Cataluña people might have forgotten.
And, Cuchuflete, immigrants *DO NOT* move to Cataluña, they move to *Spain*, which is the country they live in. So, for that matter, as a forer pointed out, there are many places in the US where Spanish, because of the immigrants I suppose, is the most spoken language. Do you agree then that Americans who move to these parts of the country, have to learn Spanish *in their own country*, or that they have to accept that all subjects at school are taught in Spanish and English as a second language? And, yes, Cataluña is actually surpressing Spanish in favour of Catalán, but not to form a bilingual region but a *Catalán Only* one.
And Mei, so when you were at school you received education in both languages, which nowadays children *do not have the chance* to get.


----------



## Outsider

I linked to this essay in another recent thread, but I think it's appropriate for this one, too. Here's an excerpt from it:



> I think the grand mistake of many cultural and linguistic policies is that they focus on preserving the past culture of a community instead of trying to build a future one. [...] It is crucially important to develop cultural tools which people can identify as their own and which serve them _now_.


----------



## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> And Mei, so when you were at school you received education in both languages, which nowadays children *do not have the chance* to get.



Really? Why? I'm sure that there are schools were that classes are in spanish.




> I think the grand mistake of many cultural and linguistic policies is that they focus on preserving the past culture of a community instead of trying to build a future one. [...] It is crucially important to develop cultural tools which people can identify as their own and which serve them _now_.



Why do you want to destroy the catalan culture? What are you affraid of? If I don't preserve the past how can I know who am I?


----------



## heidita

Who is talking about distroying the Catalán culture? What is anybody afraid of?
So, obviously you do ot live in Cataluña, otherwise you would know the difficulty people have to get their children a Spanish and not a* Catalán* *Only* education. Spanish is taught as a second language. Like English. Would you really want that for your children?
And, Cuchuflete, what do you think about my idea for Americans to learn Spanish or German in other areas of the US where this language is the local one?


----------



## Sulizhen

heidita said:
			
		

> And, Cuchuflete, what do you think about my idea for Americans to learn Spanish or German in other areas of the US where this language is the local one?


I think that comparing these two situations is not fair, since in the case of US areas you're talking about the local language and a foreign language. In the case bilingual regions in Spain, there is not a foreign language: both (Catalan and Spanish, in your example) are local, official and none of them can be considered a foreign language.


----------



## cuchuflete

heidita said:
			
		

> And, Cuchuflete, what do you think about my idea for Americans to learn Spanish or German in other areas of the US where this language is the local one?



Your question is not deserving of an answer because it is based on a fallacy.  There is no state or city in the US in which the majority speak Spanish.   English is the dominant language in all parts of the country, even where there are large numbers of Spanish speakers.   German is not widely spoken anywhere in the US.  As noted elsewhere, there is a very large Portuguese speaking minority in Massachusetts, but even there, and even in the cities with the most speakers of Portuguese, they are a minority of the total population.

You are trying to use totally distinct circumstances to support your own conclusion.  I'm surprised you don't ask about Switzerland, where there are four national languages, and no
obvious signs of linguistic polemics.  What language is used in the schools in Zurich?  What language is used in schools in Geneva?  Are they the same language?


----------



## fenixpollo

heidita said:
			
		

> And, Cuchuflete, what do you think about my idea for Americans to learn Spanish or German in other areas of the US where this language is the local one?


 I must have missed this as I meticulously re-read your previous posts.  Could you point out where you said it?  Or maybe you could just elaborate.  Also, please explain what you mean by "the local one".  The local language everywhere in my state is English.  There are pockets of people who speak other languages with each other, such as Vietnamese, Farsi, Chinese, Spanish, etc. etc., although the largest minority language in my region is Spanish.  In other regions it's Vietnamese, in others Chinese, in others French, in others Hindi....

Children in the US are free to take any language that is offered at their local school.  I could have chosen between Spanish, French, German, Latin, Russian and Japanese.  They are also free not to take a second language.


----------



## oscarlami

heidita said:
			
		

> I understand that people feel strongly about their language, so I understand that people fight for the right to talk in their local language, which in Cataluña's case was forbidden under Franco.


 

It happened the same in Galicia, Vasque County and other regions.
In 1940, the regime pass a bill that says "all public servants that during service use any non-official language will be dismissed immediately" and the same year there is another bill that says "all films must be dialogued in Castilian"

1955, in Coruña, Galicia, we find this example of the regime´s brainwash: “Hable bien. Sea Patriota. No sea Bárbaro. Es de cumplido caballero que Usted hable nuestro idioma oficial, o sea, el castellano. Es ser patriota. Viva España y la disciplina y nuestro idioma cervantino ¡¡Arriba España!!”
…meaning “Talk well. Be a patriot. Do not be a barbarian. Gentelman´s talk our official language, Castilian. It is being a patriot….”





			
				heidita said:
			
		

> But then, as Fernando says, there is no logic, whatsoever, to impose a local language, spoken by 7% of the population to the rest of the country.


 

In Galicia most of the people use Galician as their first option. We are the mayority. We do not impose Galician in non-Galician speaking areas of the country, do we? 

But they do impose Castilian in non-Castilian speaking areas. 

I can accept the convenience of having a common language. Galician people does not generally like extremes and we do not have a problem with Castilian. But never at the expense of losing our own language.




			
				heidita said:
			
		

> Catalán needs to be translated everywhere in Spain, schools, as Fernando pointed out, teach in *Catalán ONLY*, which is incredible, considering that we are living in *Spain,* where Cataluña is a region, just like Andalusia or Galicia.


 
We are living in Spain, right. So what? 

Does being a region mean that you have no right to use your language? 

Are you suggesting that they should claim independence for these regions to have the right to use their language? 
Ummm, I do not think so.

Have you ever been in Switzerland? Do they have any problems with the 3 languages in the country? How many german speakers in Switzerland speak Italian or French? Is that a problem? 




			
				heidita said:
			
		

> In





			
				heidita said:
			
		

> Galicia school subjects are taught in Spanish the national language,like everywhere, including the Basque country, which in Cataluña people might have forgotten.




In Galicia around 50% of school subjects are taught in Spanish, the other half is taught in Galician.


----------



## Mei

> Who is talking about distroying the Catalán culture? What is anybody afraid of?



Everytime I speak with a spaniard for the first time I'm waiting for a bad  commment of being catalan. And it's because I heard bad comments in several times, even in this forum. It seems they are afraid, they feel attacked, I don't know why.



> So, obviously you do ot live in Cataluña, otherwise you would know the difficulty people have to get their children a Spanish and not a* Catalán* *Only* education.



I have friends, catalan friends that speak spanish all the time because in their home they speak spanish. I love to be able to being with them speaking spanish and then change to catalan because the guy by my side speaks catalan.




			
				heidita said:
			
		

> Spanish is taught as a second language. Like English. Would you really want that for your children?



Spanish for me is a second lenguage but it's because at home we always speak in catalan, If we were speaking spanish I would like it as my first lenguage. My children will speak catalan as well as spanish. 

Mei


----------



## Fernando

Mei said:
			
		

> Everytime I speak with a spaniard for the first time I'm waiting for a bad  commment of being catalan. And it's because I heard bad comments in several times, even in this forum. It seems they are afraid, they feel attacked, I don't know why.



For some reason, I think the opposite, not with you, but when hearing nationalists: "Our language is under danger (...) we have to susidise it (...) we have to encourage its use (...)" are hared all the time




			
				Mei said:
			
		

> I have friends, catalan friends that speak spanish all the time because in their home they speak spanish. I love to be able to being with them speaking spanish and then change to catalan because the guy by my side speaks catalan.



The same comment could have been done for a Spanish-speaking guy in Catalonia during Franco era. The problem is not the people, the problem is the public use.



			
				Mei said:
			
		

> Spanish for me is a second lenguage but it's because at home we always speak in catalan, If we were speaking spanish I would like it as my first lenguage. My children will speak catalan as well as spanish.



Of course it is a second language for Catalan-speakers, but I would expect a better treatment for Spanish than for English (as an example, the possibility of being taught in Spanish in public or private and subsidied schools).


----------



## Residente Calle 13

heidita said:
			
		

> So, for that matter, as a forer pointed out, there are many places in the US where Spanish, because of the immigrants I suppose, is the most spoken language. Do you agree then that Americans who move to these parts of the country, have to learn Spanish *in their own country*, or that they have to accept that all subjects at school are taught in Spanish and English as a second language?



Don't suppose. In major urban areas Spanish is due to immigration. There are few places in the US where Spanish predates US sovereignty. And that's where the analogy is invalid. Miami has a great deal of Spanish speakers because of immigration. That's not the case in Barcelona.


----------



## Fernando

Remember that Spanish-speakers arrived first to Miami. 

But the point is:

1) Do the languages serve to communicate among humans or to hold the identity and the traditions of the people?

2) Should a state hold a lingua franca in the communication with it?

My answers (just in case you are interested in):

1) Languages are firstly a way of communication, and only in second place a way of maintaining traditions or "identities". 

2) Yes, I think it is useful a language to communicate all state organism in a State. Of course, there could be some parts of the State that can admit other languages and use it as the main language in everyday business, but translation would be necessary (specially where languages split is not obvious).


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> Remember that Spanish-speakers arrived first to Miami.


The first permanent settlement in the area was in the 1800s and *not* by Spanish speakers. Spanish speakers may have gotten to Florida first, but they were *not *the first settlers of Miami.

You can make the argument that Spanish speakers made Miami the metropolis that it is today but that's a horse of a different color.

My answer to your questions are, in my opinion.

1) both
2) it generally does, don't 90+ % of Spain speak Spanish?

I thought that every kid that grows up in Spain spoke Spanish. I could understand it if Catalaners didn't speak Spanish but they all do. How is the lingua franca being threatened if they speak Spanish too? Have you run into Catalaners you can't communicate with because of language?


----------



## Sulizhen

Fernando said:
			
		

> Remember that Spanish-speakers arrived first to Miami.
> 
> But the point is:
> 
> 1) Do the languages serve to communicate among humans or to hold the identity and the traditions of the people?
> 
> 2) Should a state hold a lingua franca in the communication with it?
> 
> My answers (just in case you are interested in):
> 
> 1) Languages are firstly a way of communication, and only in second place a way of maintaining traditions or "identities".
> 
> 2) Yes, I think it is useful a language to communicate all state organism in a State. Of course, there could be some parts of the State that can admit other languages and use it as the main language in everyday business, but translation would be necessary (specially where languages split is not obvious).



1) Languages serve to communicate but they cannot be separated from the identity, traditions and culture they're linked to. This is a fact, because one cannot be understood without the other. Someone who was raised into a Catalan-speaking-family will feel comfortable talking Catalan with his/her friends, at work and in all the aspects of his/her life. Of course he/she can (or should be able to) speak Spanish in other contexts and whenever it is required, but the fact is that his/her mother tongue is Catalan. The same with another (pick which you prefer) co-official language in Spain. In Cataluña you're free to speak Spanish, but your neighbour is free to speak Catalan if he/she wants so, and you must realize this.
Following your theory, as language should be a communication vehicle above all, let's "erase" all the languages around the world and pick the more functional one to be the worldwide-lingua franca. This is globalization.

2) States have their language, but one must assume that not all the countries have the same linguistic situation. There are countries with just an official language, with two and with three or more.


----------



## Fernando

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> The first permanent settlement in the area was in the 1800s and *not* by Spanish speakers. Spanish speakers may have gotten to Florida first, but they were *not *the first settlers of Miami.


Agreed. I should have said Florida.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> 1) both
> 2) it generally does, don't 90+ % of Spain speak Spanish?



Lingua franca is threatened FOR OFFICIAL PURPOSES because Catalan Government would be communicating only in Catalan.

Though I know the situation is not the same, it would be the case of Miami City Council writing the application forms only in Spanish or the public schools teaching only in Spanish with English just as a signature.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> Though I know the situation is not the same, it would be the case of Miami City Council writing the application forms only in Spanish or the public schools teaching only in Spanish with English just as a signature.


I see what you mean now.

 I don't think the Miami City Council is in charge of writing many of the applications that Miaminos deal with. Many are federal and I think most are from the state. But then again, I'm not from Miami, I'm from New York. 

Here, people who don't speak English are accomodated to the best of the city's and state's ability in just about any city agency, hospital, police department etc. We have a great deal of people for who English is not a first language and it does seem to make sense to make things availible for them in other langiuages. It would not make sense to put things in English only here. 

In a courtroom, for example, you will see a sign that says:

Please turn off your celular phone.
Por favor apagar su telefono celular.

Why? Because Spanish is just as pretty as English? Because Hispanic culture is important? No. It's because if you want somebody who speaks only Spanish who already doesn't have the common sense to turn off their @#$% phone before they enter a courtroom to do so you better tell 'em in Spanish.

I really can't comment on language rules in Catalunya because I know close to nothing about the place but I suspect the signs are not in Catalan there because people wouldn't understand them if they were Spanish. Ditto for applications? I'm I correct?

In the Dominican Republic, signs in Spanish does nothing to preserve the language; nobody ever reads them.


----------



## Outsider

It's easy for me to talk, as I look at this from the outside, but I really, really don't think the Spanish language is threatened. No, not even in Spain. And, no, not even if Catalonian institutions decide to start conducting their business in Catalan. Why?

Because even then:

- Spanish will still be the language of over 300 million people worldwide;
- Foreigners who visit Spain or who migrate to Spain will still learn Spanish, not Catalan, in most cases;
- The Spanish national media will still be in Spanish;
- It will still be in the interest of Spaniards from the autonomous regions to learn Spanish, together with their regional languages.


----------



## Fernando

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I don't think the Miami City Council is in charge of writing many of the applications that Miaminos deal with.



Most forms in Catalonia are made by autonomous (state) government.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Here, people who don't speak English are accomodated to the best of the city's and state's ability in just about any city agency, hospital, police department etc. We have a great deal of people for who English is not a first language and it does seem to make sense to make things availible for them in other langiuages. It would not make sense to put things in English only here.



OK to me.



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> I suspect the signs are not in Catalan there because people wouldn't understand them if they were Spanish. Ditto for applications? I'm I correct?



The signs and forms are ONLY in Catalan. Most people in Catalonia understand (not necessarily speak) both Spanish and Catalan. 



			
				Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> In the Dominican Republic, signs in Spanish does nothing to preserve the language; nobody ever reads them.



No need to insult Dominicans. Anyway, I do not know nothing about.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Outsider said:
			
		

> It's easy for me to talk, as I look at this from the outside, but I really, really don't think the Spanish language is threatened. No, not even in Spain. And, no, not even if Catalonian institutions decide to start conducting their business in Catalan. Why?


Most if not all official government business in Miami-Dade is conducted in English yet Spanish is very much alive there. Many people consider Miami the capital of Spanish-speaking America!

If we look at some historic examples, we can see that official business in England for centuries was conducted in French but still English still remained the language of the people and I think they still speak it there.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

The comment about Dominicans not paying attention to signs is not an insult. It's an observation. No smoking signs, for example, in Santo Domingo, are there for decoration.

Anyway...

Back to the topic.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Most people in Catalonia understand (not necessarily speak) both Spanish and Catalan.



Then what's the problem?


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> It's easy for me to talk, as I look at this from the outside,



You are an Outsider. It is normal.



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> but I really, really don't think the Spanish language is threatened. No, not even in Spain. And, no, not even if Catalonian institutions decide to start conducting their business in Catalan.



Of course Spanish has no problem. If the Catalan Government decided to blow the head of every Spanish-speaker in Catalonia, Spanish would not feel it very much. 

As a matter of fact the problem is that Catalan Government feels CATALAN is in danger, and so they have a persistent policy to favour Catalan and attack Spanish.

The problem is 

1) for Spanish-speakers living in Catalonia. They can not communicate with the local and autonomous government using their language in their land. Their language is non-existant. They have many problems to learn their language.

2) Spanish from other Spanish regions travelling to Catalonia. The same. And they do not know catalan.

3) Catalan-speakers in catalonia: They will lose more and more the ability to communicate in Spanish.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> 1) for Spanish-speakers living in Catalonia. They can not communicate with the local and autonomous government using their language in their land. Their language is non-existant. They have many problems to learn their language.
> 
> 2) Spanish from other Spanish regions travelling to Catalonia. The same. And they do not know catalan.
> 
> 3) Catalan-speakers in catalonia: They will lose more and more the ability to communicate in Spanish.



Oh! You're talking about politics and who the land belongs to. Yeah. Politics in Spain is not my business. I'd like to stay out of that one.


----------



## Fernando

Well, I thought I was answering your questions and the first poster. But maybe I am wrong.


----------



## Outsider

I doubt very much that Catalans are having any trouble learning Spanish. Any *Catalan speakers* want to comment on this?

As for Spaniards who move to Catalonia from other parts of Spain, I feel tempted to quote the old saying, "When in Rome..."


----------



## Residente Calle 13

Fernando said:
			
		

> Well, I thought I was answering your questions and the first poster. But maybe I am wrong.



No. You are answering my question and I appreciate it. Thanks. I just don't think it's any of my business. I'm neither Catalan nor Spanish. It's interesting stuff and I have my opinions but I really think it's none of my concern.

I think I've said it before, I think Spain rocks, and I haven't even been there, but I don't think I have the right to say what language government forms should be in or who the land belongs to. I'm from New York.


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> I doubt very much that Catalans are having any trouble learning Spanish. Any *Catalan speakers* want to comment on this?
> 
> As for Spaniards who move to Catalonia from other parts of Spain, I feel tempted to quote the old saying, "When in Rome..."



"...do what the Romans do." The Spanish-speaking or the Catalan-speaking Romans?


----------



## Outsider

It's not an either/or proposition. I'm sure the majority of Catalan speakers are bilingual.


----------



## Fernando

Yes, the majority are bilingual (the younger the less). But it is unclear to me what the Spanish-speaker from outside Rome (I mean, catalonia) must do when he wants to speak to Catalan Government. Should he become bi-lingual?


----------



## Gustavoang

Hello!

The first thing I'd like to say is that Ido has a lot to do with this conversation.



			
				macta123 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Do you think that there should be only a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


I think it has to be open as that country may have several cultures with different languages; taking the most spoken one will give advantage to that culture over the rest. However, I do believe the world population should have a common language (such as Ido)... Why? Have a look at this post (If you don't speak spanish, you can translate that page).  Mod note: promotion and link to other site removed, in accord with WR rules

Regards!


----------



## Sulizhen

Fernando said:
			
		

> Yes, the majority are bilingual (the younger the less). But it is unclear to me what the Spanish-speaker from outside Rome (I mean, catalonia) must do when he wants to speak to Catalan Government. Should he become bi-lingual?



No, as I've said, he just has to bear in mind that Cataluña is a bilingual region. 
I've been in Cataluña twice and I must say I have never had any problem. I can't speak Catalan, and everywhere I went people talked to me in Catalan. But as soon as I said I did not understand Catalan, they talked to me in Spanish. So, I must assume it's not impossible to find Spanish-speakers in Cataluña, and even bilingual people...


----------



## Mariaguadalupe

I have given this thread a lot of thought and have been enlightened by many of your comments. 

Spanish is the official language in México. Schools are required to teach all classes in spanish offering a second language in secondary school. The Secretaría de Educación Pública issues teaching guidelines and requirements for both English and French. However, in many parts of the country, English and French would be the third language learned by students. Why? Simply because many children living in indigenous communities receive their education in their own language along with spanish. So to speak, they receive bilingual education just not mainstream languages. All elementary education free textbooks, distributed by the government, are printed in both spanish and every one of the 20+ indigenous languages found in México. They even sing the national anthem in their own language. Is this wise? 

It is wise culturally speaking because you preserve their own culture. These are pre-columbine cultures or languages spoken since before Columbus discovered the new world. I'm all for that!

However, what really happens makes this a _segregation practice_. Most of these indigenous people do not learn spanish because their native language is mayan, otomí, nahuatl, etc. They *cannot* find a job in the workplace because they _do not_ speak the official language (spanish) nor do they blend into the rest of the country's way of life.  This lack of integration into mainstream México leaves them behind, making it even more difficult for them to advance in society eventhough education in México is relatively inexpensive.  All levels of education are sponsored by the government.  We've had quite a few success stories.  Benito Juárez was one of those more than a hundred years ago.

I wish it were as I understand has happened in Spain, where regional languages have been learned along with Spanish.  

This has just not happened to those less unfortunate indigenous communities in my country.


----------



## CrazyIvan

It is interesting to go through this discussion thread and I would like to offer some of my points.

I am working on a government project, called, "Creating English-Friendly Living Environment" in Taiwan. Through implementation of this program, I see various responses....One of the most frequent asked is, 

Why English? Where is our national language? Students do not even learn their first language well....

But the question would be, What is our national language????

Taiwan has such an interesting historical background that we have various different existing langugages. Mandarin, Taiwanese, Hakka, and some tribe languages. Even the Mandarin is not the same as Chinese one in written form.  (not even mention the accent and colloquial usage.)

I would say, yes. Languages do serve the funtion of identity. However, this identity is not necessarily linked to national identity, but rather than a cultural one. Take Taiwanese speaking group for example. Though Taiwanese speaking communities stick together while speaking of preservation of local culture, they seperated while talking about our national identity. So as Hakka speaking and other languages. 

However, a governmental language should facilitate public service efficiency. At least it makes people standing on the same communication ground.

So, the argument point should be, as some of participants of this thread mentioned, "promotion of national language should not supress local/regional languages, which represent another living culture."


----------



## vince

The way to impose one single national language is to convince the population that all their other languages are just dialects, and that written forms of their language are just "broken language" or "slang and colloquialisms", and that only writing in the grammar and vocabulary of the national language is correct. Of course this works best for closely related languages (on the order of Hindi vs. Punjabi or Castilian vs. Catalan).

When the last Taiwanese speaker dies, no one will be crying, for no one cares when dialects/accents disappear. Just keep the people thinking that Taiwanese is to Chinese as Canadian English is to English, and that all differences are due to "accent", "slang", and "colloquial grammar".


----------



## maxiogee

Can any *impartial* observer please inform the rest of us out here How different and distinct are Spanish and Catalan?


----------



## vince

Although closely related, they are quite distinct, and are not mutually intelligible. Spanish and Portuguese belong to the Ibero-Romance branch of the Romance languages. Although Catalan is also Ibero-Romance, it shares a lot of features with French, a Gallo-Romance language, for example, it omits some final vowels (though not as many as French). There are also many grammatical features that are transitional, e.g. I believe Catalan says "hi ha" for "there is/are" like French "(Il) y a" and unlike Spanish and Portuguese "hay"/"há". Most core grammatical vocabulary is the same (as in it comes from the same roots but may look and sound different), but there are still enough differences in pronunciation and word choice/order to throw off understanding, e.g. "amb" = with (but Spanish: con, French: avec). Catalan didn't participate in a lot of sound changes Spanish went through, so Catalan people say "fer" (French: faire) while Spanish people say "hacer" (!). Also, Catalan palatizes initial "l" more often than Spanish e.g. "lliure" (French, Spanish: libre). The spelling system is also different, e.g. Catalan uses the grave accent and the cedilla.

Basically, if you know Spanish, you aren't going to be able to understand Catalan as though it was, say, a dialect of English. It will take you a couple weeks to learn how to read and write it, even then you will probably insert in a lot of Spanish-isms . It will take longer to fully speak/listen to it. So no, it's not going to be as hard as learning German or Russian, but it still takes a little bit of effort.

btw, I've studied Catalan from a linguistic perspective, but I don't actually speak or write it fluently, but this is what I've perceived from what I've seen.

Check out http://ca.wikipedia.org. You can clearly see the distinct Catalan forms, the different choice of words they use (many unique to Catalan), and different spellings/pronunciations of common words. Any fluent Spanish-speaker may be able to understand around 90-95% of the formal written language (i.e. minus slang and colloquialisms). I know I do, and my Spanish isn't even fluent! But informal writing and spoken comprehension would be much less unless you actually take the time to learn Catalan as a language in its own right!


----------



## Mei

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can any *impartial* observer please inform the rest of us out here How different and distinct are Spanish and Catalan?



Is as different as French and Italian. Catalan sounds more like French and Spanish sounds more like Italian.

Mei


----------



## Fernando

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can any *impartial* observer please inform the rest of us out here How different and distinct are Spanish and Catalan?



I do not know how impartial you consider Mei, Vince and me, but they are different. I think any Spanish speaker can understand only the general sense of a Catalan text, but he would hardly understand it word by word.

When spoken, Valentian Catalan is easily understood (again, not word by word), while (to me) Balearic Catalan (mallorquín) is Chinese, most because of the accent, not for vocabulary or Grammar.


----------



## heidita

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Don't suppose. In major urban areas Spanish is due to immigration. There are few places in the US where Spanish predates US sovereignty. And that's where the analogy is invalid. Miami has a great deal of Spanish speakers because of immigration. That's not the case in Barcelona.


 
Oviously you really DO pretend to know everything. Have you also lived in Barcelona?
Barcelona ( and so is Cataluña in general) is actually FULL of immigrants from other parts of the country, especially from Andalucia, and let's not talk about the foreigners from other countries, like many Southamercians, Africans and , lately, East Europeans, as the forers from Cataluña will confirm.

I do think the Gallego method ( Mai, I didn't know) of teaching the language on a 50-50 level is an excellent idea. The local language doesn't get lost, BUT IS NOT IMPOSED ON OTHERS,  and the national language is known by everybody. So, people from literally everywhere, immigration is becoming a great issue in this country, have the chance to learn two languages at the same time and can use the one they prefer. Especially considering they might ot always live in this part of the country.

In Cataluñá the i*mposing* of the local language has gone so far, as to FINE places which only advertise, like restaurants, in the national language. 
I am not at all against the learning of another language, as I would most certainly have tried to learn Catalán, if I had ever had the luck to live in this beautiful part of the country, but all my saying is, that political reasons have taken things too far, so that Spanish people get even fined for using the national language, as in the example before, and are *OBLIGED *to use Catalán.

I do think local dialects or languages should be preserved. In my days at school (the day before yesterday) I still learned how to write and read "Old German" (Altdeutsch) , which many (rather)old people still use. This part of the language is completely lost now, as I don't know anybody who still learns this old fashioned nad beautiful writing.

Actually, I'm a a typical square head (jajaj) and quite accustomed to rules and really all for them, but I do not accept any kind of imposition without any kind af reasonable motive.


----------



## Outsider

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can any *impartial* observer please inform the rest of us out here How different and distinct are Spanish and Catalan?


I don't think you will find an impartial observer in matters such as this one, but, judging from what's been said in this thread, they are different enough for Castilians to fear that they won't be able to get around in Catalonia, if only Catalan is spoken to them.


----------



## heidita

Just as a matter of fact I have just checked on Barcelona's population, and there are aproximately: 838.000 immigrants from other parts of the country, and 125.000 foreigners., which makes almost a million, and it is stated that it accountsto a 25% of the population fo the city. I think that is a lot of people to impose your local language on!


----------



## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> In Cataluñá the i*mposing* of the local language has gone so far, as to FINE places which only advertise, like restaurants, in the national language.
> I am not at all against the learning of another language, as I would most certainly have tried to learn Catalán, if I had ever had the luck to live in this beautiful part of the country, but all my saying is, that political reasons have taken things too far, so that Spanish people get even fined for using the national language, as in the example before, and are *OBLIGED *to use Catalán.


Yes, we are in Spain now but Spanish was imposed here don't forget it. If not we weren't speaking spanish but that's the way it is. 

Why can't I pretend that people here (living here) speak the lenguage that my ancestor spoke? Why we were allowed to use it? 

We'll never be agree on this, Heidita. 

Mei


----------



## heidita

Mei said:
			
		

> Yes, we are in Spain now but Spanish was imposed here don't forget it. If not we weren't speaking spanish but that's the way it is.
> 
> Why can't I pretend that people here (living here) speak the lenguage that my ancestor spoke? Why we were allowed to use it?
> 
> We'll never be agree on this, Heidita.
> 
> Mei


 
Mei, I might not be expressing myself all too clearly, but even if we might never agree on this, I am not at all against the use of Catalán as a language as I think that any language is a token to your culture, even the dead ones, like my poor Altdeutsch. But I* AM*  against *IMPOSING *the language.
It overpowers me, why Spanish and Catalán cannot be treated, like we were told Gallego and Spanish are treated in Galicia, on an *equal level*.


----------



## maxiogee

Mei said:
			
		

> Is as different as French and Italian. Catalan sounds more like French and Spanish sounds more like Italian.
> Mei



Thank you Mei and the rest who answered.
So it seems that if both parties to a conversation spoke slowly and distinctly and confined themselves to simple topics they could get on.


----------



## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> Mei, I might not be expressing myself all too clearly, but even if we might never agree on this, I am not at all against the use of Catalán as a language as I think that any language is a token to your culture, even the dead ones, like my poor Altdeutsch. But I* AM*  against *IMPOSING *the language.
> It overpowers me, why Spanish and Catalán cannot be treated, like we were told Gallego and Spanish are treated in Galicia, on an *equal level*.



Ok, let me ask you something... if you go to live to France, will you feel like they are imposing their lenguage just because you don't speak French? (it's an example, I don't know if you speak it) 

Mei


----------



## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> But I* AM*  against *IMPOSING *the language



Oh, we're are agree so. That's why I prefer to speak Catalan than Spanish.

Mei


----------



## heidita

Not really, Maxiogee, Catalán cannot be understood by a non-Catalán speaker, unless possibly the Valencianos, whose language sounds similar.
I'm sure the rest of the Spanish speakers on the fromum will agree on that. Are there no Spanish speakers (also from other countries than Spain ) living in Cataluña on the forum? I wonder what their opinion is. Do you understand Catalán?
Mei will also know.
And Mei, France would be another country, not a region of one country. We all live in Spain, or do *You *not?


----------



## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> Not really, Maxiogee, Catalán cannot be understood by a non-Catalán speaker, unless possibly the Valencianos, whose language sounds similar.
> I'm sure the rest of the Spanish speakers on the fromum will agree on that. Are there no Spanish speakers (also from other countries than Spain ) living in Cataluña on the forum? I wonder what their opinion is. Do you understand Catalán?
> Mei will also know.



I don't know but I don't think so, maybe some french... we have similar words.




> And Mei, France would be another country, not a region of one country. We all live in Spain, or do *You *not?



_Touché_, yes it's true. I just wanted to mean that if you want to go to live to a country you _should_ know (not everybody can) where are you going to. 

Mei


----------



## cuchuflete

The degree and extent of "imposition" may be determined by the number of Spanish speakers --those who do not speak Catalan--living in, for example, Barcelona.   If Catalan were imposed on them as an absolute requirement of daily life, I suspect they would either (1)learn Catalan in order to survive, or (2) move away.  

From my own personal experiences in that fine city, I never felt that Catalan was being imposed on me.  I communicated in Spanish, did a little extra work at times to read and listen to people speaking Catalan, and had no problems.  

As has been pointed out, it's a bi-lingual area.  People on various sides of this argument have pointed out that there was very large scale immigration of people from Andalucía to 
Catalunya.  I don't imagine those immigrants would have moved to a place where they couldn't get along with their daily affairs due to any linguistic constraints.  

Back to the thread topic-- No, I don't think imposing a single national language makes sense as a broad generality, although many monolingual countries exist.  What would the advocates of a single language do with Paraguay, where nearly everyone is bi-lingual in Guaraní and Spanish?
The Swiss example of a multilingual country has already been cited--it works.   Should Italian be "imposed" on Sardegna at the expense of the local language?  Or, should the languages continue to co-exist?   

In short, a single model will work in some places, and fail in others.  The perceived-by some people-overreactions of minority language speakers to their own perception of prior prejudice can create temporary stress.  Catalunya is an example, and Quebec is another.  Russian speakers in Estonia
may have similar feelings.  Its an emotionally loaded topic for those directly concerned, and all the historical references to what happened ten or seventy years ago to help create the current status and disputes will do nothing to reduce the tensions and discord.


----------



## Lluna1977

heidita said:
			
		

> Not really, Maxiogee, Catalán cannot be understood by a non-Catalán speaker, unless possibly the Valencianos, whose language sounds similar.
> I'm sure the rest of the Spanish speakers on the fromum will agree on that. Are there no Spanish speakers (also from other countries than Spain ) living in Cataluña on the forum? I wonder what their opinion is. Do you understand Catalán?
> Mei will also know.
> And Mei, France would be another country, not a region of one country. We all live in Spain, or do *You *not?



Hi Heidita.
I'm from Catalunya, which by the way it's not written with an Ñ. You're right when you say that there are lots of immigrants in here who won't understand català, but I really don't think that we are imposing our language to anybody. 
Oh, and just to let you know. In Valencia they speak a dialect of català... it's the same language, but I don't want to discuss that.
Català is the official language in Catalunya, along with Spanish. Nobody obliges you to speak català if you live here, only if you work here (and only in official places), cos' as you will understand, a catalan wants to be treated in his own language in his daily life. 
We have an autonomous government with enough power to decide about our linguistic policy, and this is called democracy, this is what catalan people want, although as you've said we are in Spain.
If you ever live in Catalunya you'll see that you're free to use any language you want to, if you want to speak spanish everybody will understand you... if you go to the police, to the parliament or to a hospital they will talk to you in spanish if you don't speak català.
And about your concern about schools... well I can promise that any child speak perfect castilian after school... sometimes much better than they speak català.

So, answering to the main question:  no, I don't think that a single national language is good...


----------



## Fernando

Just a couple of points, Cuchu:

- Living in Barcelona I doubt very much you feel imposed nothing because THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST IN PRIVATE LIFE. I have repeated this several times in this thread (with scarce success). 

- Anyway, I assume you have read some Spanish-speaking diaries. That is perfect. Maybe you saw a paper called Avui. That paper was paid by Spanish-speaking and Catalan-speaking taxpayers. The same for TVs. If you had a child he would learn IN Catalan, regardless your opinion. Every time you touch something public is CATALAN ONLY. 

- Most Spanish-speaking inmigrants have gone to Catalonia from, say, 1850 to 1970, when the situation was completely different. They are Catalans, they are not invaders. They were called by Catalan companies, nobody arrived to a town in Extremadura or Andalucia and said "You, you, and you, to Barcelona". There were no Stalin-type migrations.

- NOBODY in this thread is trying to abolish bi-lingualism in Catalonia. As a matter of fact, we are trying to preserve it.

- NOBODY is asking for mono-lingual countries. People speak in the language they want, PUBLIC OR PRIVATELY period. 

- The most "extreme" vision (Heidita) is to treat Spanish as the national language, only for PUBLIC affairs. When I say PUBLIC I refer to relation with the STATE, at all levels (State, Autonomous Community and City Council).

- My opinion is much more moderate. I only ask that Catalan will not become the "national" language in Catalonia and every Spaniard (Spanish-speaking, not Spanish-speaking, from or outside Catalonia) should have the right to communicate in their language.

- This is fully independent of politics. If tomorrow Catalonia would become independent the only difference in this post would be that non-Catalans would have no right to give their opinion, but Catalonia would still be a bi-lingual society and the Spanish-speakers in Catalonia would have the same rights.


----------



## Fernando

I agree in most of your post. Just a comment:



			
				Lluna1977 said:
			
		

> I'm from Catalunya, which by the way it's not written with an Ñ. You're right when you say that there are lots of immigrants in here who won't understand català, but I really don't think that we are imposing our language to anybody.



Catalonia is spelled this way in English, Catalunya in Catalan and Cataluña in Spanish. Heidita has decided to use the Spanish way. Given this is a linguistic forum you should have advised her not use the Spanish form when talking in English.

I do not annoy when other people writes Espanya, Espagne, Spain, Spanien or (Bono), Ejpaña.


----------



## Outsider

heidita said:
			
		

> I do think the Gallego method ( Mai, I didn't know) of teaching the language on a 50-50 level is an excellent idea. The local language doesn't get lost, BUT IS NOT IMPOSED ON OTHERS,  and the national language is known by everybody. So, people from literally everywhere, immigration is becoming a great issue in this country, have the chance to learn two languages at the same time and can use the one they prefer. Especially considering they might ot always live in this part of the country.


I would love to hear a Galician comment on whether Galician is truly taught "50-50" with Spanish in Galicia (let alone used "50-50"), because that's not the impression I have. And let's not forget that school is only a part of the battle. For example, all Galician _regional_ newspapers are published in Spanish, except one. I understand how this may be more comfortable for nonlocals, though.


----------



## Lluna1977

Yes Fernando, you're completely right and I take back what I said about the spelling.


----------



## Mei

Fernando said:
			
		

> - Anyway, I assume you have read some Spanish-speaking diaries. That is perfect. Maybe you saw a paper called Avui. That paper was paid by Spanish-speaking and Catalan-speaking taxpayers. The same for TVs. If you had a child he would learn IN Catalan, regardless your opinion. Every time you touch something public is CATALAN ONLY.



How many taxes are only payed here and used in all the country (I mean "los peajes")? And why is more expensive buy a ticket of the AVE here than in the southern? 

The paper is payed by the people who lives here, the people how buy, right?



> This is fully independent of politics. If tomorrow Catalonia would become independent the only difference in this post would be that non-Catalans would have no right to give their opinion, but Catalonia would still be a bi-lingual society and the Spanish-speakers in Catalonia would have the same rights.



Don't worry that won't happen.

Mei


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> I would love to hear a Galician comment on whether Galician is truly taught "50-50" with Spanish in Galicia (let alone used "50-50"), because that's not the impression I have. And let's not forget that school is only a part of the battle. For example, all Galician _regional_ newspapers are published in Spanish, except one. I understand how this may be more comfortable for nonlocals, though.



Unluckily, the situation in Galicia is not very different. However, there are several models of schools. Galician is compulsory in Spanish-speaking models and viceversa.

All Galician regional newspapers are published in Spanish, but one, as you have remarked. All of them are privately owned. The situation is exactly the same as in catalonia. Autonomous government subsidise the Galician paper as well as occassional Galician-written sections in Spanish-speaking papers. The name of the cities have been "galized", regardless of the opinion of the cities (the best example is Coruña).


----------



## Fernando

Mei said:
			
		

> The paper is payed by the people who lives here, the people WHO buy, right?


No, they are payed by ALL the people. I pay a piece of Avui. 

Difference: 

- La Vanguardia, El Periódico: payed by the people who buy it.
- El Mundo, El País, ABC,...: payed by the people who buy it.
- Avui: Payed by all the people (readers of La Vanguardia, El Mundo, El País...) plus the people who buy it.


----------



## Mei

Fernando said:
			
		

> No, they are payed by ALL the people. I pay a piece of Avui.
> 
> Difference:
> 
> - La Vanguardia, El Periódico: payed by the people who buy it.
> - El Mundo, El País, ABC,...: payed by the people who buy it.
> - Avui: Payed by all the people (readers of La Vanguardia, El Mundo, El País...) plus the people who buy it.



Really? I thought it was payed by the Generalitat with what we recieve of the State that is more that what the catalans recive because we pay more than we recieve. It's not payed by all the spaniards at all.

Mei


----------



## Fernando

You are wrong. Since I pay more than the average Catalan (let alone Spaniard) I contribute with my taxes more than the average Catalan to Avui funding.

Of course, as I am living in Madrid, we also pay more on a territorial basis, but the territorial basis is shit. When you say "we Catalans" the poor Catalans pay less than me, so I am paying the poor Catalan the same I am paying to the poor Andalusian (and let me say, I am happy of that and I am proud of that). 

But, let's assume I am a Spanish-speaking Catalan. I would be paying 100% of my taxes to pay one Catalan-speaking media. Maybe just 50% should pay that.

For some reason, Spanish Government does not subsidise Spanish-speaking papers. And its stupid TV has heavy sections in Catalan for Catalonia (that is OK to me,...assuming you need a public TV).


----------



## cuchuflete

Fernando y Mei,
This is an interesting discussion, but perhaps public subsidies of the press deserves its own thread.


----------



## Mei

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Fernando y Mei,
> This is an interesting discussion, but perhaps public subsidies of the press deserves its own thread.



Yes you're right, sorry about that.

Mei


----------



## Fernando

Agreed. We have derailed the main topic.


----------



## Sulizhen

Outsider said:
			
		

> I would love to hear a Galician comment on whether Galician is truly taught "50-50" with Spanish in Galicia (let alone used "50-50"), because that's not the impression I have. And let's not forget that school is only a part of the battle. For example, all Galician _regional_ newspapers are published in Spanish, except one. I understand how this may be more comfortable for nonlocals, though.


Unfortunately, Galician situation is not really the same as Catalan one, since Galician people is not as proud of their language as Catalan people. I've said before that when I was at school Galician was considered a kind of "yokel" language. Galicia has a lot of rural areas and villages, and not so many big cities. Many times in the past, Spanish-speakers priests, politicians and so on (they were not Galician), were sent here (by several reasons). That means that people from rural places, who still spoke Galician, has to move to the "big cities" to make any kind of official paperwork and deal with civil servants who don't even understand Galician. This way, Spanish became a fashionable and cosmopolitan language, and Galician was considered a poor language typical of country people.

This situation is changing, thanks to different linguistic policies and to the involvement of some people and Public institutions (such as Universities), but there is still some kind of general rejection in some places, where even the Galician accent is seen as a sign of non-refinement. I don't know in which point is now the Primary and Secondary Education with regard to Galician language teaching, but when I was in school it wasn't really a 50-50 percentage. In fact, there wasn't a clear separation. There were subjects taught in Spanish and subjects taught in Galician, but then teachers were free to pick the language they wanted to give their classes, regardless of the language in which the subject book was written. When I was in High School, some teachers tried to use Galician to give classes, but in some cases the situation was even worst because the mother tongue of those teachers was not Galician, but Spanish, and they talked a kind of broken Galician with lots of Spanish-isms.

To all of this we must add that, although there are official linguistic rules, there are also different trends that think that those "official rules" don't reflect the real situation of the language and its speakers, or that think that those rules are not valid for Galician, since Galician has more to do with Portuguese than with Spanish...


----------



## vince

If only the non-Mandarin Chinese languages (e.g. Yue (Cantonese), Wu (Shanghainese), and Min-nan (Taiwanese) could have the same active promotion and protection by both the government and the enthusiastic population as Catalan and Galician enjoy in Spain.

The Chinese langauges are all dying out and no one could care less. Keep referring to them as dialects despite them being further apart than French and Italian, or Spanish and Catalan. Keep saying that written Cantonese is broken Chinese plus slang, and that there is only one standard grammar and vocabulary for writing Chinese.

In 50 years, there will only be one language in China spoken by 99% of the population.


----------



## Outsider

European Parliament to adopt Latin as official language


----------



## maxiogee

To come to this question from the offshoot I raised....
*Yes, a single National language will be a good thing, when the world is a single Nation.* Until then let us marvel at the diversity of thought, poetry, and joy which the languages of the world have given us.


----------



## CrazyIvan

Hola Sulizen, 

I found something in common between Galician and Taiwanese situation, while our languages mostly are spoken in rural areas. People consider that language is a language with little modern culture content, which is not true at all. 

I am lucky through my education. I had a teacher speaking Taiwanese in class in elementary school. ( which should not be allowed back to that date) I got lots of teachers with strong cultural identity, which consider Taiwanese is not only a language but a culture which should be well-perserved. (Lucky means I do not have to tolerate your "the half Galician-half Castillon" situation .)

However, the bilingual ( or even multi-lingual, since we have hakka and other tribal language as well) education in public schools is high controversial on this island. The main arguments brough from the opposition is, since the world is learning Mandarin, why should we promote our local languages? I cannot agree with this argument as vince pointed out. We are simply different, and it is a matter of pluralism. If a nation ever serve the funtion to keep pluralism and variety, it is necessary for them to do something in the public schools. However, a general language should be accepted as well. Since we Taiwanese do not have the written form, the official paper written in mandarin characters is kind of necessary.

An extra note to Vince: we may have some misunderstanding here. While I mention "slang", "colloquial" difference, I refered to the mandarin we speak, but not Taiwanese.  

And aslo I tend to take things in positive way. Taiwanese survived 50 years of Japanese occupation, another 50 years of "pro-mandarin" movement, I believe we will survive another 50 years, and another and another


----------



## vince

CrazyIvan said:
			
		

> Hola Sulizen,
> 
> An extra note to Vince: we may have some misunderstanding here. While I mention "slang", "colloquial" difference, I refered to the mandarin we speak, but not Taiwanese.


I am referring to the common belief among most Chinese that Taiwanese itself is a mere dialect, differing from Mandarin only in accent, slang, and colloquial vocabulary.

This is the opinion of almost every Chinese-educated person I met, it's taken as a non-debatable truth. It is saddening because since most Chinese people believe this, no one will shed a tear when the last Taiwanese speaker dies, because to them, the Taiwanese just learned how to speak "the proper dialect" i.e. Mandarin, and lost their regional "accent and slang" (Taiwanese Minnan).

Everytime someone says, "in Chinese, we say this: ...." and a sentence follows that would not be acceptable in any Chinese language except Mandarin and the Standard Written Chinese, I feel that the misinformation has grown one step further. The Chinese are reinforcing to the outside world that there is only ONE Chinese language, composed of many dialects that can be compared to ONE English language composed of dialects such as American, British, and Canadian English. When in fact Portuguese, Spanish, and Catalan are more similar than Minnan, Cantonese, and Mandarin in grammar, vocabulary, and syntax.

I believe that when Chinese people explain Chinese, they should use terms consistent with linguistics that present an honest view of the Chinese languages to non-Chinese people.


----------



## Roi Marphille

hi, 
I've been some time away and I have just read this thread and I'm getting out of my nerves when I realise all bullshit in it!
I just want to say few thinghs: 

1) Catalan language IS NOT EVIL!!! repeat with me: IT IS NOT EVIL! IT IS NOT EVIL! it is good to learn it. It is one of the best bridge-languages to learn and understand many others. People should forget about f* politics. Catalan language is good!
2) Theory and practise do differ. Very few kids in urban Catalan areas speak Catalan. I mean VERY FEW %. Most of them speak to each other in Spanish, some are bilingual. 
3) In almost 100% of stores, shops, in Catalan urban areas people addresses to you first in Spanish. If you answer in Catalan, some people may gladly change to Catalan, some people are OFFENDED! and some people do not mind. When I taxi driver speaks to me in Catalan, I want to hug him. 
4) it is absolutelly IMPOSSIBLE not to learn Spanish in Catalonia. I MEAN IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
5) THERE IS NOT LINGUISTIC CONFLICT!!! Many of we Catalans just assume that we are (treated like) shit. That's it. We are not violent people. 

Please, I kindly ask you to stop bullshiting about a serious issue!!!
thanks!

Roi


----------



## gato2

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> hi,
> 1) Catalan language IS NOT EVIL!!! repeat with me: IT IS NOT EVIL! IT IS NOT EVIL! it is good to learn it. It is one of the best bridge-languages to learn and understand many others. People should forget about f* politics. Catalan language is good!
> 2) Theory and practise do differ. Very few kids in urban Catalan areas speak Catalan. I mean VERY FEW %. Most of them speak to each other in Spanish, some are bilingual.
> 3) In almost 100% of stores, shops, in Catalan urban areas people addresses to you first in Spanish. If you answer in Catalan, some people may gladly change to Catalan, some people are OFFENDED! and some people do not mind. When I taxi driver speaks to me in Catalan, I want to hug him.
> 4) it is absolutelly IMPOSSIBLE not to learn Spanish in Catalonia. I MEAN IMPOSSIBLE!!!!
> 5) THERE IS NOT LINGUISTIC CONFLICT!!! Many of we Catalans just assume that we are (treated like) shit. That's it. We are not violent people.
> 
> Roi


 

Roi, yo soy de Barcelona, y mi primer idioma (a nivel oral) es el catalan ya que soy de familia catalana y aunque estoy de acuerdo en que es imposible no aprender castellano en Cataluña creo que haces afirmaciones demasiado taxativas.

1. En toda mi vida no he tenido la impresion de que alguien se sintiera ofendido porque yo le hablara en Catalan. Como mucho, si la persona no domina el idioma me contestara en castellano y ya esta.

2. No creo que los catalanes seamos tratados en absoluto como una mierda, en absoluto. Mas bien nosotros, a veces hemos calificado a los emigrantes del resto de España con el calificativo no muy amable como "xarnegos"


----------



## FrancescaVR

macta123 said:
			
		

> Hello,





			
				macta123 said:
			
		

> Do you think that there should be only a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


==============================

Interesting that you brought this issue here. Speaking from my own experience, I would say that I do not think it is a good idea and I'd disagree with the idea of having stick to one language for the whole country. I previously lived In Indonesia. And the archipelago is badly ruined in its unique culture due to the government's policy that forcing/insisting on the people across the country (with various culture and languages) to only use Indonesian as the official language, this resulting in the people to step away from their own culture. Language in my point of view, represent a big part of a culture. And if one loses it, then one cannot fully understand certain things of the culture. 

The negative impact of the Indonesian government policy has not only damaged the various cultures they have, but more people now can no longer have the skill to speak more then just Indonesian. It is a great pity, because being able to speak different languages can be a great advantage. 

Because of this policy, in the end certain things in life like TV programs, etc (which the Indonesian were and are not taught or informed about the negative and positive impacts) ended up making them thinking that they only need to speak the language which they heard from the media (in this case is Indonesian). As though it is so fancy for them to speak Indonesian language and for some reason many Indonesian (particularly in rural areas) sometimes find themselves in awkward situations were they feel embarrass to use their own mother tongues. In the olden days, Indonesians were better off with languages, because they could speak Dutch, Malay, Portuguese, their mother tongues and Japanese.


----------



## Laia

gato2 said:
			
		

> Roi, yo soy de Barcelona, y mi primer idioma (a nivel oral) es el catalan ya que soy de familia catalana y aunque estoy de acuerdo en que es imposible no aprender castellano en Cataluña creo que haces afirmaciones demasiado taxativas.
> 
> 1. En toda mi vida no he tenido la impresion de que alguien se sintiera ofendido porque yo le hablara en Catalan. Como mucho, si la persona no domina el idioma me contestara en castellano y ya esta.
> 
> 2. No creo que los catalanes seamos tratados en absoluto como una mierda, en absoluto. Mas bien nosotros, a veces hemos calificado a los emigrantes del resto de España con el calificativo no muy amable como "xarnegos"


 
Bueno gato2, yo también soy de Barcelona y mi primer idioma (a todos los niveles) también es el catalán.

1. Gente que se ha ofendido por hablarle en catalán (en Cataluña): un dependiente de una charcutería de mi barrio, una camarera en una cafetería en Sant Cugat del Vallés (que se negó a traerles el café a dos amigas mías, por pedirlo en catalán), unos chicos que oí cómo le decían a otro "Tú no me hables en catamierda" (en Tarragona), etc etc (no hago una lista, como comprenderás... esto es lo primero que he recordado).

2. No claro, no nos tratan como a una mierda...  No es muy agradable que te llamen catalufo de mi*rda, tampoco.

Tengo que decir que no he leído el thread entero, directamente he leído los últimos posts...


----------



## gato2

Pues no se, puede que haya ambientes donde ese tipo de cosas pase. Yo en principio siempre hablo catalan (cambio al castellano si me contestan en este idioma por un motivo de educacion) y jamas me han tratado mal ni se han negado a servirme y ni mucho menos me han llamado "catalufa" ni nada que se le perezca.  

Pienso que hay gente que disfruta sintiendose ofendida por este motivo porque eso le hace sentir mas "catalan". Yo personalmente, no he tenido ocasion de disfrutar de ese "placer"


----------



## xymox

I've read most of the thread. A few facts about Catalonia. 
1. There are both Catalan and Spanish speaking schools. However, if one chooses the public school system , the official language is Catalan although Spanish is used quite freely in and out of the classroom.
2. Catalonia encourages people to learn their language, they do not oblige anyone to learn it. Most jobs do not require the use of Catalan, even for Catalonian government positions. I know of a few people who have government jobs and don't speak Catalan.

In my honest opinion, it is an attempt to conserve the language and culture alive while the birth rate is extremely low in that part of the country. The situation is very similar to that of Quebec in that particular sense. It is even used as a reference sometimes, which is a shame because the two situations are extremely different otherwise. Catalonia was once a country whereas Quebec is part of the "new world". Their backgrounds are a million years apart.

Spain officially has four languages which are used locally. It is all a question of common sense to learn a local language. It gives you "added value" and shows respect. Catalonia is a place that many people from southern Spain have chosen to live and earn a living and many of those who landed in Barcelona in the 1960's do not speak a word of Catalan today. It doesn't seem to have had much impact on their lives.
Canada, for example, has two official languages where anglophones do not generally speak French and where some francophones speak English. If you are presented with the opportunity to learn and live with two of the most common languages in the world and you don't use it, then it's your loss, no one else's.

I agree with most here who have said that the use of two or more languages should be seen as positive rather than negative.


----------



## xymox

gato2 said:
			
		

> Roi, yo soy de Barcelona, y mi primer idioma (a nivel oral) es el catalan ya que soy de familia catalana y aunque estoy de acuerdo en que es imposible no aprender castellano en Cataluña creo que haces afirmaciones demasiado taxativas.
> 
> 1. En toda mi vida no he tenido la impresion de que alguien se sintiera ofendido porque yo le hablara en Catalan. Como mucho, si la persona no domina el idioma me contestara en castellano y ya esta.
> 
> 2. No creo que los catalanes seamos tratados en absoluto como una mierda, en absoluto. Mas bien nosotros, a veces hemos calificado a los emigrantes del resto de España con el calificativo no muy amable como "xarnegos"


 
Roi y gato2,

Llevo 5 años aqui y siendo el castellano mi tercer idioma y el catalán mi quinto idioma, debo decir que hay un poco de todo. 
Visto desde fuera, puedo decir que cuesta que me hablen catalán. No me he sentido ofendida pero en varias ocasiones, suelen cambiar al castellano al ver que uno no es de aqui.  Al haber cada vez más inmigración y trabajadores inmigrantes en lugares públicos, en la mayoría de los casos, simplemente no hablan el idioma local.
Para uno que quiere aprenderlo y practicarlo de forma diaria, no siempre es fácil.
Tot i així, és molt bonic el català, m'agrada molt.


----------



## GenJen54

*Mod Intervention:*

Hola a Todos. 

If I may please remind you of the topic of this thread:


> Do you think that there should be only a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


 
Comments about the need and even advantages and disadvantages for singular national language as it pertains to countries *in general* are most certainly welcome. 


However, it seems several of you have taken the opportunity to once again proffer the debate between Spanish and Catalan. If you wish to further this particular discussion, please do so in any one of the *multiple* threads already existing on the subject. Those can be found HERE, HERE and HERE. 

Thank you and Gracias!


----------



## xymox

I am very sorry. I was not aware that these other threads existed.  

Thanks for the tip!!


----------



## heidita

Cuchuflete, I have just returned from holidays and have returned to "my" beloved forum to find your harsh answer to my post.

I had no idea you should find it a "fallacy" (strong word and rather insulting, in this part of the world anyway) to think that in some parts of the states another but English should be the most spoken language.
I have visited the States twice. The first time I went to Miami, ages ago, when I spoke English on my arrival to the airport and once I visited the post office, the rest of the time I was directly addressed in Spanish, being in company of Cuban friends. In those days,  there was a fight going on against the *English First* method, which for obvious reasons I could not understand at all. Spanish people thought that their language should be on an equal level with the English one. Actually, why should there be an *English First* rule, if this problem did not exist?

Regarding your stay in Catalonia (Fernando,thanks for pointing out the correct English spelling) I quite agree, that in everyday life, I don't think there are any problems whatsoever to communicate or speak in Spanish, as I have visited Barcelona and other areas recently and despite the Catalán First rule, nobody was as impolite as to answer back in a language which I of my husband could obviously not understand. In any case, the Catalán First rule is quite recent, so the effects of the ruling might not have been noticed by you at all, depending on the time of your stay.

Also I might point out that I have a strong feeling for the country and I personally think that this overruling of the national language by a local one is tearing many people apart and this is my main reason for being against it. I could agree to an equal treatment of both languages to conserve the local one,  but this is not the case any more. 

I found Francesca's post very interesting, as I don't know that part of the world at all. But if like in India everybody should speak their local dialect or language, how should people communicate?


----------



## cuchuflete

Welcome back, Heidi,

Sorry you took my choice of words personally.  
They refered to an illogical and erroneous statement, and not to a person.  Fallacy:
 A false notion.
 A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference.
 Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.
If you work hard to find localities where a language other than English predominates, you will succeed, but even in Miami, English continues to be the language of the majority, including the hundreds of thousands of bi-lingual people. 
The movement for English first was promoted by monolingual English speakers who felt threatened by the use of another language by a large minority of Spanish-speaking residents. That movement continues throughout the country, and is generally promoted by some rather extreme right-wing xenophobes, at times in places where it is difficult to find many non-English speakers. 

Such is politics when combined with paranoia. I listened to one proponent of an "English Only" law yesterday. He suggested that Spanish speakers should be forced, by law, to switch to English in the presence of English speakers, so they, the English speakers, could monitor whether the Spanish speakers were conversing about plans to rob banks! 

OK, so when you were in Miami once upon a time, in the company of Cuban friends, you spoke Spanish. That and the existence of the English First movement do not make Spanish the language of anything other than a minority in the US. In New Mexico Spanish is one of two 'official' languages. Life goes on with no more stress than in states where Spanish is not an official language, and in those--the majority--where there is no official language. 



			
				heidita said:
			
		

> I personally think that this overruling of *the* national language by a local one is tearing many people apart and this is my main reason for being against it.


 I fully appreciate your objection, based on the polemics and ill-feelings aroused. Yet you continue to refer to Spain's national language in the singular. I believe Spain has more than one national language. Catalan is, by Spanish constitutional law, a legal language in Spain. Hence I find it difficult to understand anyone objecting to its use.


----------



## TRG

In the subject question, what is good? A country (or the world for that matter, the world) where many different languages are spoken is more interesting to me personally than one where everyone spoke the same language. And I'm sure there are benefits to being multi-lingual and multi-cultural that I don't even get. However, there is also a downside in that people who do not speak the same language are much less likey to cooperate and much more likely to fall into conflict than people who speak the same language. I believe the world would be more peaceful and enjoy a higher standard of living if we all spoke the same language and probably if we shared other cultural elements as well (not going to mention the R word). However, it would be one boring place, now wouldn't it.  

trg


----------



## Outsider

heidita said:
			
		

> Regarding your stay in Catalonia (Fernando,thanks for pointing out the correct English spelling) I quite agree, that in everyday life, I don't think there are any problems whatsoever to communicate or speak in Spanish, as I have visited Barcelona and other areas recently and despite the Catalán First rule, nobody was as impolite as to answer back in a language which I of my husband could obviously not understand.


Why should it be "obvious" that you and your husband could not understand Catalan?


----------



## Korena

macta123 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Do you think that there should be only a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language.


 
I don't think that there should be a single national language! Here in America, ours is English, but I would hate it if that were the only language spoken! I enjoy being able to walk around my local mall and hear Spanish and French! I love the variety of the languages all over the U.S.

-Korena


----------



## panjabigator

Isnt there some debate now about making English the actual national language?  I read somehting in the paper about it a couple of weeks ago...


----------



## GenJen54

Congress tried to pass some measure several weeks ago.  They could not agree on what the verbiage should be.  The measure was packaged in with the immigration bill, if I recall.  

While making English the "official" language of the U.S. did not pass, I believe what *did* pass was the law stating that any immigrant wishing to pass the citizenship test must also pass an English proficiency exam.  I need to go look this up, as I am uncertain as to the exact wording of the law. 

It was political grand-standing at its best.  Today (literally) they are grand-standing over whether burning the flag should be considered unconstitutional. (Opponents of the ban feel its burning is protected under First Amendment rights of "Freedom of Expression.")


----------



## Outsider

Outsider said:
			
		

> With my apologies to *Residente Calle 13* and the other Americans here, the _legal officiality_ of a language always sounds like an empty discussion to this foreigner. Whether or not a country (or state) has an official language, every country _uses and promotes_ some language(s) over all others. That may not make it an official language _de jure_, but it certainly does _de facto_. I put it to you that English is the _de facto_ official language of the whole U.S.A. Enshrining it or not enshrining it on the legislation makes no practical difference.


I guess I was wrong about this...


----------



## fenixpollo

Jen, I'm going to edit your post above by adding the following information in red: 





			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> While making English the "official" language of the U.S. did not pass *at the federal level*, I believe what *did* pass was the law stating that any immigrant wishing to pass the citizenship test must also pass an English proficiency exam.


 In my (red) state, unfortunately, the nativists are once again trying to pass an English-only law. It's on the ballot this November. The last one _barely_ failed. 

English "proficiency" has been part of the Citizenship exam for a long time.


----------



## panjabigator

What does this mean?  I thought we were an English speaking nation all along...


----------



## fenixpollo

What does what mean, panjabigator? The US is an English-speaking country, but the federal government has never passed a law making English the official language. The US doesn't have any official language, although individual states may pass laws making English the official language.

Good news, though -- the flag-burning amendment failed... again.


----------



## ukuca

In Turkey this argument has been a problematicly unsolved politic discussion as you know. For many years governments had denied the nation of Kurds and their language. Buw now it's about to change with the process of adaptation with the EU. My personal opinion on this subject(and only in this subject, the other issues related to Turkish-Kurdish disagreements would be politic issues) is that everyone should have rights to speak, communicate and learn their mother tongue.


----------



## panjabigator

So what would be the reprecussion of making English our national language?  This is interesting, but I dont think its a good idea still...I feel it will erode a lot of our already dieing indigenous cultures...


----------



## Aldin

No,absolutly no.
I think that every nation should have right to their own language.
I think that USA should have Spanish as official language too,and Spain Catalan and Basque.In my country there are 3 official languages,and every person who speaks bosnian can speak croatian and serbian.The three languages are equal,in this case I think only one national language would be appropriate.Imagine this,law written in 3 languages:bosnian,croatian,serbian
e.g.
ENG: That is not right.
BOS: To nije uredu/То није уреду.
HRV: To nije uredu.
SRB: То није уреду/To nije uredu.

But in case of Catalan and Spanish the difference is obvious and I think that Catalan should be official language of Spain too.
Maybe if we all had Latin as official the world would be much better place.


----------



## panjabigator

Ideally, there should be a world language that everyone would learn...but I dont want it to be english...it gives English speakers and unfair advantage...


----------



## pickypuck

Aldin said:
			
		

> But in case of Catalan and Spanish the difference is obvious and I think that Catalan should be official language of Spain too.


 
It is already official in the places it is spoken. 

¡Olé!


----------



## Nineu

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Montana at one time had a fairly large Basque-speaking immigrant population...but that should not be confused with Spanish!


 
My grandfather was one of them!!!  Then, after ten years in US, the second time he came here to visit his family, he knew my grandmother and he (she...) dicided to stay here...

By the way, I have studied in basque (at school, at high school end at university) and I speak perfectly basque and spanish.  Here people who "live" in basque know spanish or french aswell.  That's good and bad.

A language is history, it's culture and it's more than costs.   I think that to impose a language, means to impose a culture.  It's a cultural invation.


----------



## Fernando

Nineu said:
			
		

> Here people who "live" in basque know spanish or french aswell.  That's good and bad.



Why is bad?


----------



## panjabigator

I think Nineu is equating the coerced learning of another language as a cultural invasion.


----------



## Fernando

Yes, but why is bad for Basque-speakers to KNOW Spanish or French. Nowadays they are not coerced (at least, in the Spanish side).

I love to have been coerced to learn (some) English.


----------



## panjabigator

Do you mean they dont have to learn Spanish if they don't want to?  Personally, I see no problem in being forced to learn a new language, as long as I can maintain my own heritage (ie language and culture).  I wish Florida had Spanish as a co-official language.


----------



## capsi

hi
i don't think it is a very good idea to impose a language on someone. Mother tongue is something we are all to much associated with and may be we can know more than one language but our mother tongue will always have a different place in our heart. by respecting my own mother tongue i respect others also, that why no language is infirior to other. so if we have ppl talking different languages then we should give all the languages equal stage.
being a Bengali , i think no one understands better, the importance of one's mother tongue than we Bngalis, because in the history of the world only for this language  twice many ppl have given their lives, once in India in the state of Assam and the other time in then East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). and UN has given respect to those by declering '21st Feb'  ( the day ,the pakistani army killed the young college students, who were demanding Bengali as national language in place of Urdu) as ''International Mother tongue Day''


----------



## MarX

To answer the original question:

I think it's neither good nor bad.

Some countries have more than one national languages and they're doing alright. Others, I guess the majority of the world's countries, have one national language and it's no big deal, either.


----------



## jonquiliser

Omg. I just read some answers on the first page of this discussion and am... what should I say? Baffled.

It's made to sound as it were a theoretical question, or even a mere question of efficiency/productivity/economics (sound familiar?!).

It may be for someone who just asks the question abstractly, "is it better or worse?" But for people who speak a minortiy language, it's not a question of better-or-worse, or even of choice. It's merely a fact. I couldn't switch to the majority language even if I wanted to, because it isn't my mother tongue and I don't even speak the majority language of this country all that well!

Why should one language be chosen over others? The example of Spain given - there's this political entity called Spain. Why should this justify the erradication of "regional languages"? Spanish/Castilian is also a regional language, though one favoured due to political and historical circumstances. So what, it's not everyone's mother tongue, for god's sake!

Nor is German in Germany, Swedish in Sweden, Danish in Denmark, and so on for an eternity. 

Sometimes I wonder where people get their ideas from. It is interesting that sometimes, the people that most loudly declare their favour of one-country-one-language, are the ones most to complain about other people's manner of speaking ("regionalisms", "ineducated", "ignorant" etc).


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## raptor

Personaly, I think that languages should be more according to region, rather than nation.  For example in Canada, I would vote for English in the majority, Qebecois French in Quebec, and then bi/multi lingual in the Northern territories.  Possibly bi/mulit lingual in BC as well, for Cantonese.

I think that people should have more choice in regard to languages, especially learning them. I do not agree with banning a language, but there is always the problem of minority languages.  For them, becoming bilingual or even monolingual in the majority language can be very important to being able to function in the community/state/country etc.

I think a single national language is less important or relevent than the languages spoken by a large percentage of people in the country.

raptor


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## Sepia

Residente Calle 13 said:


> The United States does have a single national language but it doesn't have an official one. I think the two issues are seperate. Individual states in the union may choose to have English as the only official language or other languages but it's usually only the official recognition of a historical fact.
> ....


 
I don't want to judge if this is a good idea or not, but at least you'd have to change the constitution:

(It is funny that so few US-Americans know this), but choosing an official language is not a federal matter - it is decided on state level. 

The last thing I heard - and that is over 10 years ago - was that about 20 states had decided for English as their sole official language. So in some way you'd have to take power away from the states to even make such a decision.


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## Sepia

pickypuck said:


> It is already official in the places it is spoken.
> 
> ¡Olé!


 
True, but remember, only on a regional level. If it also became official on a national level it would also be an official language on EU-level. 

That would in some way be fair - the number of Catalan speaking people in Spain totals more than the complete population of each of several EU-member states like Estonia, Denmark, Ireland (they have two official languages, remember), and a few more. 

However, I urge the populations of the Catalan-speaking regions also to be fair - it is no use to reverse the discrimination ...


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## Arrius

Each year the number of people who have acquired a useful command of English is accelerating exponentially, whilst in the UK the number of schoolchildren studying foreign languages is dwindling rapidly, with such a great a loss of foreign language teachers to the profession in consequence, that a reversal of the process would be extremely difficult if not impossible. Most British people have remained stubbornly monoglot whatever attempt to amend that was made at school. On the other hand, in the Netherlands many non-linguistic university courses are given in English. Already in Denmark thirty or forty years ago you could ask even a very old man in English for directions in Copenhagen and he would answer you in a very tolerable version of the same language, and now I am daily impressed by the high standard of English spoken by ordinary Irakis, Palestinians and South Americans interviewed on the BBC. Even in Spain now one can find a much higher percentage of the population who can function in English.
I have heard that business meetings in Germany are now sometimes held in English, when there is not a single native speaker of English present. And everyone one who has anything remotely to do with IT is bound to have some English.
This ongoing spread of English is bound to snowball until everybody except some remote villager can communicate in English, and this will have a unifying effect on the world. Perhaps with everybody doing a lot of their business in English there will be fewer squabbles about the use of other languages for domestic, social, religious, or cultural reasons. The use of English in India and Pakistan has not eclipsed the indigenous languages neither has this been the case in Anglophone Africa. 
The dream of a universal artificial language like Esperanto, Volapük etc, is now over, but the universal use of English is becoming more and more of a reality every day, like it or not. In my opinion, Spanish, Norwegian, or Afrikaans (simplified Dutch) would have been more homogeneous and simpler to learn and, all other things being equal, would have made better universal languages, but, Spanish is concentrated geographically and history did not go in the direction of the other two.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Apparently there are over 1.9 billion speakers of English worldwide and this number continues to grow. Whether this is healthy for the world's minority languages is very much in doubt but it just goes to show the complete domination of English as the language of international communication.


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## Outsider

Or maybe it just shows the complete dominance of _Time_ magazine by English speakers.


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## Mate

Moderator note

I would like to remind you all the original post:

_"Do you think that there should be only a single National Langauge [for the whole country ] (for most administrative and daily purpose) - For eg. French in France, German in Germany etc? Or should it be more open like in India (where there are so many languages) - Different states (well most of them) having a state language."
_ 
 Please keep the discussion focused on the main question.

Thanks for your understanding,

Mateamargo
CD moderator


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## balasang

If one wants to be like the Philippines where there is a spurring hate towards the Tagalog people.

As someone who hails from the Philippines and is a non-Tagalog, I say it is not good. I do carry a personal grudge against the language because in school we learn the Tagalog grammar but not the grammar of our native languages(Ilocano, Ibaloi, Kankanaey, Ibanag, Ivatan, Kiangan, Kalangoya, Pangasinense and many more). And despite Ilocano being the 'national language of the north'(as in non-Ilocano northerners speak Ilocano in communicating with Ilocanos and non-Ilocanos northerners) it holds no official status regional, or national. Same with Cebuano. It is the lingua franca of the south but it has no official status. In addition to that singing the National Anthem in any other languages OTHER THAN Tagalog is a CRIME. How silly! I would excuse it f the National Anthem was ORIGINALLY written in Tagalog but that is not the case, it has only been translated from Spanish to Tagalog! You see, if non-Tagalogs would show their deep love in their culture and not on tagalog, we are automatically labelled as regionalistic and a threat to national unity. Heck, 29% of the Philippine population are Tagalogs, the 71% are non-Tagalogs. We outnumber the Tagalogs!

I would rather have Spanish 9r English as the sole national language than Tagalog taking the place. At least, that way it is fair. Why because the Spanish and English influence in our languages are a common denominator! Unlike now where the advantage is at the hands of the Tagalogs. You see, up to date many Tagalogs, particularly those who hail from Manila make fun of the regional accents when speaking Tagalog or even English. They say they find it funny. As if the Tagalogs don't sound awkward if they pronounce Panagbenga(or if they are unable to do the 'double consonant'  and schwa in Ilocano --Tagalog does not have schwa but many Nothern Philippine languages have it! Some norther languages even have v, f, and sh which Tagalog traditionally did not have). But we're not like them who make fun of their 'unusual' accent when speaking northern languages. Most likely, they'd be misunderstood or politely corrected(pronunciations are a must in Ilocano. Once you mispornouce even just one letter, it's likely that no one will understand you)


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## MarX

Hello!

Yes, I think a single national language is good, even though I wouldn't mind if there were more, as long as it works well and doesn't cause too much trouble.

In Indonesia, when Indonesian, which is based on Malay, was elected to be the national language, there were certainly much bigger languages, such as Javanese, Sundanese, Madurese, etc. But Indonesian (Malay) was chosen, and nobody has had a problem such in the Phillipines.

It's interesting that you'd rather have a foreign, European language as a national language rather than an indigenous one.
The other languages in Indonesia are indeed in decline, but at least they are being replaced by an Indonesian language, which in spite of having many loanwords, is still Indonesian.

Salam,


MarX



balasang said:


> If one wants to be like the Philippines where there is a spurring hate towards the Tagalog people.
> 
> As someone who hails from the Philippines and is a non-Tagalog, I say it is not good. I do carry a personal grudge against the language because in school we learn the Tagalog grammar but not the grammar of our native languages(Ilocano, Ibaloi, Kankanaey, Ibanag, Ivatan, Kiangan, Kalangoya, Pangasinense and many more). And despite Ilocano being the 'national language of the north'(as in non-Ilocano northerners speak Ilocano in communicating with Ilocanos and non-Ilocanos northerners) it holds no official status regional, or national. Same with Cebuano. It is the lingua franca of the south but it has no official status. In addition to that singing the National Anthem in any other languages OTHER THAN Tagalog is a CRIME. How silly! I would excuse it f the National Anthem was ORIGINALLY written in Tagalog but that is not the case, it has only been translated from Spanish to Tagalog! You see, if non-Tagalogs would show their deep love in their culture and not on tagalog, we are automatically labelled as regionalistic and a threat to national unity. Heck, 29% of the Philippine population are Tagalogs, the 71% are non-Tagalogs. We outnumber the Tagalogs!
> 
> I would rather have Spanish 9r English as the sole national language than Tagalog taking the place. At least, that way it is fair. Why because the Spanish and English influence in our languages are a common denominator! Unlike now where the advantage is at the hands of the Tagalogs. You see, up to date many Tagalogs, particularly those who hail from Manila make fun of the regional accents when speaking Tagalog or even English. They say they find it funny. As if the Tagalogs don't sound awkward if they pronounce Panagbenga(or if they are unable to do the 'double consonant'  and schwa in Ilocano --Tagalog does not have schwa but many Nothern Philippine languages have it! Some norther languages even have v, f, and sh which Tagalog traditionally did not have). But we're not like them who make fun of their 'unusual' accent when speaking northern languages. Most likely, they'd be misunderstood or politely corrected(pronunciations are a must in Ilocano. Once you mispornouce even just one letter, it's likely that no one will understand you)


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## balasang

^The case in Indonesia is different from the Philippines. The widely spoken language in your country is Javanese however you opted for a Malay-derived language which is just fair because it does not make other languages second class. The move that Indonesia made was far better than what the Philippines did. It just annihilates our culture9non-Tagalog). You see it's so ironic that singing the national anthem in Cebuano or Ilocano is a crime! The rule is it should be sang in Tagalog. It's so unfair since the original version was written in Spanish!

However, this is not the case in the Philippines. Tagalog was the chosen national language by the government and there were many protests but all were discarded. It's even ironic that before the 80's it is actually Cebuano that was widely spoken.

You see, in my opinion Tagalog is more foreign than Spanish or even English to 3/4 of the population because we, the non-Tagalogs, did not absorb Tagalog culture but we have significant Spanish and American influences. Honestly, I don't consider English and Spanish foreign. It is not to be forgotten that the Philippines was under Spain for 300 years and 50 years under USA.


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