# Jealousy



## ameana7

I am always curious about the jealousy in the relationships in different cultures.  There are such men I know who don't even permit his girl friend to talk with other men. Of course not all the men but, there are some, or there are some girls who gripe about all other girls, for example, his boyfriend's colleagues because of the jealousy.

Thus, I want to ask if being a jealous person is something instinctive/personal thing or it is about the way of bringing up, because we generally live in a patriarchal world.

For instance, your girl friend phoned you and she said she would meet one of his boyfriends that you don't know. Will you be annoyed or in what circumstance will you be annoyed? And in your country how is the general reaction about being jealous?

I'm waiting your answers.

P.S : I really don't want offend somebody by asking these questions. If so, I am really sorry.


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## maxiogee

ameana7 said:


> Thus, I want to ask if being a jealous person is something instinctive/personal thing or it is about the way of bringing up, because we generally live in a patriarchal world.



If, as you say, girls are also 'guilty' of jealousy then I doubt that patriarchy can be to blame. 

Possibly monogamy is to blame - the notion that one must remain 'true' to one partner (at a time, at least). 
Or, maybe, it is the notion that a single person is always on the lookout for a partner - and doesn't mind whether that partner might be 'spoken for' already - which some insecure people seem to believe, might be to blame.

Whatever the overt reason, insecurity in one's relationship is generally at the root of unfounded jealousy - and not all jealousy actually is unfounded. That needs to be stressed. There are people who cheat on their partners - it's shocking, I know!


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## ameana7

maxiogee said:


> If, as you say, girls are also 'guilty' of jealousy then I doubt that patriarchy can be to blame.


 
In Turkey, I find men more "guilty" so I think there can be a relationship between bringing up in a patriarchitic world and being jealous.


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## xrayspex

_In Turkey, I find men more "guilty" so I think there can be a relationsihp between bringing up in patriarchitic world and being jealous._ 
I don't think it's so different anywhere in the world.  Mother Nature has provided us with some built-in urges which are intended to maximize the quantity and quality of our species... which is quite some task, since these two goals (quality vs. quantity) can often be at odds.   

This is an oversimplification, but what it boils down to is basically one rule for men, and another rule for women.  The reasons are complicated, but at this point, very well researched and at least partially understood.  

The rule for men is:  Try to make as many babies as possible.  

The rule for women is:  try to find the father with the best genetic material to make a baby. 

These two rules explain a lot, and are much more profound than they might first appear.


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## maxiogee

xrayspex said:


> _In Turkey, I find men more "guilty" so I think there can be a relationsihp between bringing up in patriarchitic world and being jealous._
> I don't think it's so different anywhere in the world.  Mother Nature has provided us with some built-in urges which are intended to maximize the quantity and quality of our species... which is quite some task, since these two goals (quality vs. quantity) can often be at odds.
> 
> This is an oversimplification, but what it boils down to is basically one rule for men, and another rule for women.  The reasons are complicated, but at this point, very well researched and at least partially understood.
> 
> The rule for men is:  Try to make as many babies as possible.
> 
> The rule for women is:  try to find the father with the best genetic material to make a baby.
> 
> These two rules explain a lot, and are much more profound than they might first appear.



But the 'rule' for men is complicated by the 'second rule' - don't pay for and provide for the raising of another man's baby!
And the 'second rule' for women is similar - make sure that the father of yoru child sticks around for long enough to raise it with you.

Actually the main part of the problem lies in the commitment involved in getting the baby born in the first place! The man is involved for as short a time as possible in wooing and bedding the chosen partner. The woman commits to that and the nine months time needed to carry the operation to term. In that time the man can be doing all sorts of things.




			
				ameana7 said:
			
		

> In Turkey, I find men more "guilty" so I think there can be a relationship between bringing up in a patriarchitic world and being jealous.


But then how do you account for the female jealousy? I would suggest that the patriarchial nature of the Turkish society which you notice is responsible for all the attitudes to women among Turkish men - and not just jealousy. If so many men are that noticeably jealous of their women, might it stem from the innate knowledge that these men have that they are not treating the women as equals - and that is not just down to patriarchy.


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## xrayspex

_But the 'rule' for men is complicated by the 'second rule' - don't pay for and provide for the raising of another man's baby!
And the 'second rule' for women is similar - make sure that the father of yoru child sticks around for long enough to raise it with you.
_ 
Well, I admitted that I oversimplified it.   

A woman ideally needs two men; one with excellent genetic material (who is probably obnoxious, conceited, and an all-around jerk and womanizer as a side effect of being so wonderful) and another man with the resources to successfully raise a child.  

The latter naturally wouldn't be too keen on this.  Men have been remarking forever that it's ironic (and annoying) that women always seem to go for the jerks.   Nice guys finish last.  Etc etc and so on and so on. 

And the sad part is, it's true.


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## Pedro y La Torre

ameana7 said:


> There are such men I know who don't even permit his girl friend to talk with other men.



I would say that a person who does this has a real problem. Are they so insecure that they cannot trust their "significant other" to talk to other men. It certainly dosen't bode well for their future together imo.




ameana7 said:


> For instance, your girl friend phoned you and she said she would meet one of his boyfriends that you don't know. Will you be annoyed or in what circumstance will you be annoyed? And in your country how is the general reaction about being jealous?



Hmm..in Ireland I would say that generally this would provoke jealousy. For me though I very much doubt if it would, or, at least I _hope_ it wouldn't.


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## ernest_

maxiogee said:


> But then how do you account for the female jealousy?



Both human males and females share a common deeply-rooted desire to possess, be it things, people or whatever. Just look round you, and you will find that everythin is organised around ownership. I wouldn't rule this out as the source of jealousy for both men and women, but I could be wrong of course.


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## winklepicker

ameana7 said:


> There are such men I know who don't even permit his girl friend to talk with other men.


You know what they say about men who drive big cars, Ameana? - Big car, small winkle.  I reckon the same applies here. Men who are truly comfortable with themselves don't have to worry about someone else outperforming them. These men have not grown up yet. Jealousy IMHO always rebounds on the jealous person, making them miserable.

No one person can satisfy all another person's needs. It's unwise to stop a partner from enjoying the company of other people. If it breaks up the relationship, then the relationship was not strong enough to last - and is better over. And if not, well, who cares where they go for lunch as long as they come home for dinner?

If you love someone, set them free.


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## izabella

This is one major reason I don't wish to date people with cultures that are different than mine. I don't think that I could tolerate a partner showing jealousy simply because what I do isn't accepted in his culture.

I'll share a story..

I have a big Italian family and we always kiss everyone on the cheek when we meet, including friends. 

My cousin was dating a middle eastern and he was so jealous about this. He thought she was really flirting and he didn't understand why she had to kiss everyone. So she stops doing that, and he started asking her to wear clothing that is more covered, she did what he asked again and some time later he was telling her that she should be ashamed and she should turn Muslim !! 

All the jealousy and possessiveness was because of his culture. What bothered me the most is that he was fully aware of what she was before he started dating her, he should have just dated a middle eastern instead of trying to change someone into what he wanted! 

Of course she got tired of him and had to end it.

People always claim that they are "open minded" and that these things don't matter. But their culture always kicks in anyways.


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## badgrammar

Ameana, I do think that it has a cultural basis, and having dated many people from many cultures , I can tell you, I have never seen any man as jealous as a Turkish man .  I think it must be a culturally acceptable attitude, and so they feel it is normal to be so jealous, because it is all they have known. It is a very primitive, protective kind of response, that is totally foreign to "Western" women of today.  An American or French guy jealous that way would be a freak show.  It's cute at first, but quickly turns into a real burden.

I'm sure that is changing in Turkey, that the younger guys are less so, because Turkey is quickly becoming a very modern country, and is a great example of east meets west!



ameana7 said:


> I am always curious about the jealousy in the relationships in different cultures.  There are such men I know who don't even permit his girl friend to talk with other men. Of course not all the men but, there are some, or there are some girls who gripe about all other girls, for example, his boyfriend's colleagues because of the jealousy.
> 
> Thus, I want to ask if being a jealous person is something instinctive/personal thing or it is about the way of bringing up, because we generally live in a patriarchal world.
> 
> For instance, your girl friend phoned you and she said she would meet one of his boyfriends that you don't know. Will you be annoyed or in what circumstance will you be annoyed? And in your country how is the general reaction about being jealous?
> 
> I'm waiting your answers.
> 
> P.S : I really don't want offend somebody by asking these questions. If so, I am really sorry.


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## maxiogee

badgrammar said:


> Ameana, I do think that it has a cultural basis, and having dated many people from many cultures , I can tell you, I have never seen any man as jealous as a Turkish man.


 
Would it be grossly impolite to ask how many Turkish guys this generalisation is based on? Or to ask how many other nationalities were represented in the sample? 

You date 5 Irish guys and what do you get as a basis for comparision with other cultures? You've got 5 Irish guys, is what you've got - feck all!


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## badgrammar

You're right, Maxi, and my observation is not just based on my own experience, but on what I have gathered talking to both my Turkish girlfriends and to non-Turkish girlfriends who have dated (married) Turkish men.  

It is a complicated issue and I am sure it is a very big generalization I made.  But, it is a very patriarchical society.  While it is true that in terms of higher education, the work force, and even important positions in the government, women are well-represented in Türkiye...  But, well, when you marry, you are expected to give up outside pursuits to raise your family, and take care of your husband.

Anywho, it is effectively impossible to make broad generalizations that hold true about every person from any culture.  But from what I have seen/heard/experienced, it is considered, by both men and women, very normal for boyfriends/husbands to be very jealous and posessive in traditional Turkish culture...  It is almost expected.  If they were not, you might wonder if they really loved you...

So I do believe their is a cultural influence, absolutely.  In France, it would be seen in a bad light to be overly jealous, so even if you are very jealous, you are going to tone it down so that people do not think poorly of you.  In a culture where it is considered normal, not only do you not have to hide your jealous feelings, but others may criticize you and think you are crazy for not being more so.  

Absolutely influenced by culture.


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## badgrammar

I think some of the proof that jealousy is culturally biased can be found in the above posts - no one sees it as a good thing to be jealous, and everyone who has written is from a "Western" country.  It is not considered good or normal.  

That is true in the cultures that you come from.  It is not the case everywhere, so I think you can expect to see different attitudes in different countries.

Of course, some people are just insecure and unhealthy and out of control in their jealousy, that is beyond being a cultural question.

Ameana, I am curious to know more about what you think on the subject...


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## Kankj

Talking about different cultures I can tell you my experience with Italian guys.

I've noticed that (in my city at least -Padova, North of Italy) guys who are attending the university seems to be less jealous than guys who aren't.

And, generally speaking (and not forgetting that we are talking per stereotypes), I' think that guys who come from bigger cities seems to be less jealous too.

Now I'm dating a guy I've met at the University: we are together since three years. He never ask me to stop seeing my best friend, who actually happens to be my ex. And I would'nt accept a prohibition like that.

that's my experience, but I know this do not happen customarily: thus, I don't think Italian guys are so jealous as the stereotypes say.

Sorry for the mistakes: I just tried to share my experience..


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## Cereth

Mmm...
My boyfriend is mexican too, I date many male friends and he never gets jealous, of course sometimes he says I have too many friends, but we never fight or argue because of that.
I think the key for that is trust and assertiveness and in my opinion "culture" has almost nothing to do with jealousy, it depends on people self-esteem level and trust in their partners.


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## Paulfromitaly

Cereth said:


> Mmm...
> My boyfriend is mexican too, I date many male friends and he never get jealous..



What do you mean with " I *date* many male friends" ? do you mean that you hang out with your male friends or do you actually date other guys apart from your boyfriend?


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## Cereth

hahaha....mm..that sounded awful ne? I think I have to stop posting while I´m working... What I meant is that I hang out with male friends.... (I don´t kiss them or whatsoever)...


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## jinti

Perhaps it's a question of age as well as culture.  In my admittedly limited experience,  younger guys have been more jealous than older ones.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

jinti said:


> Perhaps it's a question of age as well as culture. In my admittedly limited experience, younger guys have been more jealous than older ones.


Not in my _neck_ o' the woods...

Here, the -chauvinistic- culture forces guys (regardless of age) to be sickly jealous, to which most women react as being "cuaimas" (see third paragraph of the link for a definition). In other words, people behave ridicolously regarding that matter.

Men go like: "I must keep her under my thumb, so I have to be jealous enough to remind her who's in charge".

And women: "Men are all the same. I have to protect what's mine or else I'll lose it, so jealousy can come in handy"

That's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge generalization I'm making, I know, but that's how it seems to be.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> Not in my knock *neck* o' the woods...


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Pedro y La Torre said:


>


Ha ha ha ha!  Gosh, that was really funny!    Sorry about that...


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## Etcetera

What about jealousy among friends?
I've noticed that some people are really jealous about their friends - not girl' or boyfriends, but of "just" friends. They can't stand that their friends can go to the cinema with some other friend, for instance. 
In my opinion, it's rather ridiculous, but...


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## badgrammar

That's why I think there is a real culture influence, some cultures value jealousy, seeing it as a necessary and constructive thing, while other cultures look down on it, see at as a destructive force, a feeling that is to be suppressed and ashamed of, that only the weakest and most insecure individuals succomb to....

So not to beat a dead horse, but I really believe culture has a lot to do with how people feel, deal with and show jealousy in relationships. 



Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> Not in my _neck_ o' the woods...
> 
> Here, the -chauvinistic- culture forces guys (regardless of age) to be sickly jealous, to which most women react as being "cuaimas" (see third paragraph of the link for a definition). In other words, people behave ridicolously regarding that matter.
> 
> Men go like: "I must keep her under my thumb, so I have to be jealous enough to remind her who's in charge".
> 
> And women: "Men are all the same. I have to protect what's mine or else I'll lose it, so jealousy can come in handy"
> 
> That's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge generalization I'm making, I know, but that's how it seems to be.


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## Chaska Ñawi

There is also the odd woman who feels that her boyfriend isn't really interested in her unless he does get jealous, or feels that she has to make her boyfriend jealous to get his full attention.  These relationships seem just as toxic as those involving one intensely jealous partner.

Most of us have seen jealousy flourish in animals as well.  You pet one animal and its neighbour immediately squares up for attention, sometimes shoving the first one out of the way.  An item of leftover breakfast, offered to the dog and pointedly declined, suddenly becomes vitally important to that dog when the cat strolls into the room.


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## ameana7

Chaska Ñawi said:


> There is also the odd woman who feels that her boyfriend isn't really interested in her unless he does get jealous, or feels that she has to make her boyfriend jealous to get his full attention.  These relationships seem just as toxic as those involving one intensely jealous partner.



Yes, it is really an odd and sick thing that being jealous to draw much attention. Unfortunately, I sometimes hear some girls, who are generally in high school, who feel not being interested or loved without the jealousy; but I think they are really little to understand how is being loved. In those years, dating is really childish  in Turkey.



Etcetera said:


> What about jealousy among friends?
> I've noticed that some people are really jealous about their friends - not girl' or boyfriends, but of "just" friends. They can't stand that their friends can go to the cinema with some other friend, for instance.
> In my opinion, it's rather ridiculous, but...



I had a friend like this that she wanted to be the first thing in my life. Without she, I couldn't see my other friends. Also, I had a friend boyfriend who was nearly accusing me when I was having higher marks when we were both in university. This is the reason that I say "I _had _a boyfriend!" It is a real burden and in both cases, I think the most important thing is not culture. It is about low self esteem.



badgrammar said:


> Ameana, I do think that it has a cultural basis, and having dated many people from many cultures , I can tell you, I have never seen any man as jealous as a Turkish man .  I think it must be a culturally acceptable attitude, and so they feel it is normal to be so jealous, because it is all they have known.
> I'm sure that is changing in Turkey, that the younger guys are less so, because Turkey is quickly becoming a very modern country, and is a great example of east meets west!





badgrammar said:


> It is a complicated issue and I am sure it is a very big generalization I made.  But, it is a very patriarchical society.  While it is true that in terms of higher education, the work force, and even important positions in the government, women are well-represented in Türkiye...  But, well, when you marry, you are expected to give up outside pursuits to raise your family, and take care of your husband.



I think it was a part of culture, in Turkey. It is changing rapidly. As being a Turkish girl, when my boyfriend shows jealousy, I find that he doesn't trust me enough to know that I don't hurt him any way. Also, I cannot accept somebody who doesn't permit me to see my friends, because I don't take permissions to see my friends. Nobody in my family or friends can accept someone who wants to change my dressing style. As you know we don't have to cover up, although we are generally Muslims.

However, you are right in some cases Badgrammar. For example, it is mostly unacceptable if you still have close friendship wit your ex-boy/girlfriend. Even I am sometimes annoyed in some cases. Then it should be the part of bringing up in Turkey. Yes, you are right, generally Turkish people are jealous, But I still find that the extreme examples have problems about their low self esteem. In some degree, it is the part of our culture, although especially the people who have higher education are more open minded. We are not as comfortable as Westerns in this issue. It is just my opinion of course, there may be other Turkish guys or girls who are against them..


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## ElaineG

badgrammar said:


> That's why I think there is a real culture influence, some cultures value jealousy, seeing it as a necessary and constructive thing, while other cultures look down on it, see at as a destructive force, a feeling that is to be suppressed and ashamed of, that only the weakest and most insecure individuals succomb to....
> 
> So not to beat a dead horse, but I really believe culture has a lot to do with how people feel, deal with and show jealousy in relationships.


 
There are definitely cultural elements in the _expression _of jealousy -- where I lived in Sicily, a man who allowed "his" woman to spend too much time in the company of male friends was perceived as weak, and violent (violently emotional) expressions of jealousy on the part of both sexes seemed to be part of expressing love.  

Similar exhibitions of jealousy in my social milieu in NY would quickly get you branded a psychopath, and an undesirable partner.  It is widely accepted that everyone remains close friends with their other sex friends, their ex-lovers, and even their ex-spouses.  Frowning upon your partner going out for dinner with his or her ex makes you seem uptight, laughingly welcoming those exes or the age-old opposite-sex "best friend" into your circle of mutual friends shows that you are appropriately modern.

But I wonder if there is as much difference in the jealousy we _feel_.  As Chaska pointed out, my two dogs are quite jealous of one another and even of me showing affection for my partner.  If I'm kissing one dog, or their master, the other one will be sure to wedge his little snout right in between us.  

So, I wonder if on the hand, a Sicilian man may not feel as much jealousy as he demonstrates, and on the other, that a contemporary urban American may feel more jealousy than it is considered appropriate to let on to.  After all, I bite my tongue more than a bit when my boyfriend goes out drinking with his (beautiful rail-thin) best friend of 20 years, and I get several rounds of "joking" questioning every time I come back from dinner with one of the "boys".


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## Etcetera

ameana7 said:


> It is a real burden and in both cases, I think the most important thing is not culture. It is about low self esteem.


I agree wholeheartedly!


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## badgrammar

Wow, it took a while!  i ws beginning to think I was the only one who could even fathom the possibility that some dimension(s) of jealousy may be culturally conditioned.  As usual, Elaine came in and said it so much better than I .

As per the jealousy we _feel_, I would however say that society also conditions much of what we feel (we are after all a product of the world we grow up in).  Take the example of racism.  If you are brought up in a society (or family, or circle of friends) where it is "normal" to feel that other races/ethnicities are inferior, then you may well feel that it is true.  Maybe you'll be different, but the cultural view you were brought up in will have an effect.  If racism is frowned upon and discouraged in your society, chances are you won't _feel_ superior to other races/groups.  

Of course, some folks may act more jealously than they really feel, or some may act like they are not jealous even though it is tearing them up inside (as is the case in our "Western" societies where jealousy is so frowned upon).  But, I believe that the way the company you keep perceives any given issue can have a large effect on how you _feel_, express and act upon certain issues.  It's not 100% guaranteed you will be of the same opinion, but it's definitely an influence.


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## Vanest

This post reminds me of a song by an Ecuadorian song writer, Julio Jaramillo, called "Mi propiedad privada":

"Para que sepan todos a quien tú perteneces
con sangre de mis venas te marcaré la frente
Para que te respeten aún con la mirada
y sepan que tú eres mi propiedad privada

Qué no se atreva nadie a mirarte con ansias
Y que conserven todos respetable distancia
Porque mi pobre alma se retuerce de celos
y no quiero que nadie respire de tu aliento

Porque siendo tu dueño no me importa más nada
que verte solo mía mi propiedad privada
que verte solo mía mi propiedad privada"

The funny thing is that this is a very traditional song from the 1940's, of course it´s very 'machista' but a few years ago an argentinian singer, Soledad Pastoruti, made a remake where she changes the roles, so the line says "Y verte solo MÍO, mi propiedad privada" and there is this music video that shows a crazy woman who ties her 'boyfriend' up. 

So I guess things change over the generations... of course I still know a few very jealous men, but also a few very jealous women. But I think that jealousy, in general, is less now than it was when my grandmother was a young.

And, speaking of my grandmother, she has a saying: "Los celos son como la sal: con un pizca basta". Which means: "Jealousy is like salt: a dash is enough."


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