# Urdu: numerous



## panjabigator

Salaam,

Are the words <mut'adid> and <beshumaar> exact synonyms?


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## arsham

I'd say not exactly, beshomaar is more like countless,


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## panjabigator

Thank you.  I see the difference now.


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## Cilquiestsuens

In PK Urdu, (influence of Punjabi ????), an idiomatic equivalent of *be-shumaar* is *be-panaah *(lit. 'without-shelter') in a number of expressions... such as 

*us ke paas be-panaah paisa hai...*

Is this expression used in other Urdu speaking communities??? In Farsi ????


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## Faylasoof

Clico,

We normally say <laa ta'daad>, <be hadd>, <be Hisaab> <be shumaar> in the context of something being countless. There is also <anginat>. Usage depends on what is being considered. 

لاتعداد ۔/ بے شمار۔/ ان گنت / بے حساب  etc.etc.

We use <be panaah> but only when we wish to be highly emphatic.


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## panjabigator

Just thought of another one: <kasiir> (with a _se_ often rendered as /th/)--> multifarious.  

As in <kasiir ul muqaaSad> (with a _swad_), a wonderful phrase for "too many pastimes/hobbies/goals."  Is that an accurate translation?


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## Cilquiestsuens

panjabigator said:


> Just thought of another one: <kasiir> (with a _se_ often rendered as /th/)--> multifarious.
> 
> As in <kasiir ul muqaaSad> (with a _swad_), a wonderful phrase for "too many pastimes/hobbies/goals." Is that an accurate translation?


 

kathiir ul maqaaSid (_broken plural of ismuZ Zarf on the lines of mafaa3il, other example : masaajid_)  is ismuS Sifah (adjective) and means... something like *multi-purpose*....


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## panjabigator

How about <go na go.n>?  I understand this to be similar to <kathīr>.


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## BP.

_katheer-ul-maqaaSid_ would be 'serving various ends' - as Cilko said, multipurpose.

Frankly I'm not sure about *گوناگوں*, but it probably means multi-coloured or multi-faceted.


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## arsham

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _katheer-ul-maqaaSid_ would be 'serving various ends' - as Cilko said, multipurpose.
> 
> Frankly I'm not sure about *گوناگوں*, but it probably means multi-coloured or multi-faceted.



guun in Persian means 1-colour 2- sort, kind 3- cheek; in gunaagun, it's the 2nd meaning that is conveyed, hence gunagun=diverse (in Iran at least!)


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## Faylasoof

Only in some literary Urdu prose (and even in higher register speech) might you hear گوناگوں = diverse. It is rare, but when used carries the same meaning as in Farsi. Otherwise in Urdu, diverse is expressed as:

مختلف قسم کے/ انواع کے


طرح طرح کے

Coming back to the topic:


Numerous = مُتعدَد / بَڑی تَعداد / کَثیر تَعدا


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## BP.

We often read

گوناگوں مساٴل - a plethora of problems
گوناگوں مرقع - colourful compilation/album

in the papers. The first obviously much more frequently than the second!


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## Faylasoof

Good to hear that BP! So گوناگوں  is alive and well, in Pakistan at least. As many in my family are Farisphones - a few from the older generation - I assumed that it was very much them, as representatives of Luckhnavi Urdu, who were prone to use this. Nice to know that the word is *not* going out of fashion.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Just to add my two cents... for this idea two other Urdu expressions:

bhaa.nt bhaa.nt ke ( = taraH taraH ke)

rangaarang (= goonaagoo.n)


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## Faylasoof

Clico,
 
We use both rangaarang and goonaagoo.n (in this sense) but not bhaa.nt bhaa.nt ke ( = taraH taraH ke). What is the etymology of this? Sounds old Hindi / Prakrit.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof said:


> Clico,
> 
> We use both rangaarang and goonaagoo.n (in this sense) but not bhaa.nt bhaa.nt ke ( = taraH taraH ke). What is the etymology of this? Sounds old Hindi / Prakrit.


 

Well, I must tell you that I had read it in Hindi literature and never happened to hear it in India -but I'm sure it must be used somewhere. When I came to PK I was surprised to hear it actually used by Urdu speakers... and discovered later it was also used in Punjabi...

So it's another word which is Punjabi and Hindi also.... It is also an entry in Ferozul lughaat..... I'm going to check its etymology (no doubt it is derived from sanskrit and revert to you, IA)


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## panjabigator

Cilco, what is it in Panjabi?  <va.nḍ va.nḍ ke>?  I'm unfamiliar with both the Urdu and Panjabi versions.


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## BP.

بھانت بھانت کے means انواع ہ اقسام کے. I've read it and probably also heard it in Urdu. The origin definitely seems Sanskrit or old Hindi.


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## Sheikh_14

BP. said:


> We often read
> 
> گوناگوں مساٴل - a plethora of problems
> گوناگوں مرقع - colourful compilation/album
> 
> in the papers. The first obviously much more frequently than the second!



A couple of questions regarding ironically the plethora of posts on this thread. Firstly, whether the word in question is Gunagoo or Gunagoon as Arsham Sahib has suggested or was it merely a typo which is understandable since the rest have not mentioned a noon harf (letter) as its end. 
Secondly, is the word  کَثیر pronunced in its original Arabic form as Katheer or as Kaseer or is the matter passed at the speaker's ease and discretion. In other words both Katheer and the Persian Kaseer are valid?


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## marrish

^ If you allow me I'd say no-one missed ''nuun'' (transliterated in post #8, 14 & 15 as ''.n''); in post #9, 11, 12 and 13 written ''ں'' - Urdu script and in post 10 (arsham aaqaa) transliterated ''n'' - from the perspective of Persian.

As far as I know this word is terminated with a nasal vowel '_uuN_' in Urdu, unlike in modern Persian. This nasality is expressed as ں in Urdu and in transliteration some might prefer ''.n'' or as we go for it nowadays, ''N''. So I'd say, everyone is here in agreement that it is _guunaaguuN_ in Urdu. This word is in use.
کثیر is pronounced like the Persian - _kasiir_ because this is the form Urdu borrowed at some point from Persian.


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> In PK Urdu, (influence of Punjabi ????), an idiomatic equivalent of *be-shumaar* is *be-panaah *(lit. 'without-shelter') in a number of expressions... such as
> 
> *us ke paas be-panaah paisa hai...*
> 
> Is this expression used in other Urdu speaking communities??? In Farsi ????


Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, I had n't come across this post, hence the delay in replying.

Yes, you have assigned a correct meaning to the word "panaah". Here is part of an entry in Platts' dictionary.

s.f. Protection, defence, shelter, shade, asylum, refuge

Let us pick one of the above meanings, namely, shelter. One can take shelter in/under/*behind* something. The last possibility leads one to think possibly of a wall or something similar behind which one takes shelter. An example of this would be..

_shahr-*panāh*_, s.f. Wall round a town

One could think of this wall as a boundary or a limit. I think this is the meaning that is assigned to "panaah" when one talks about "*be-panaah*" (without limit/limitless). I have searched the net for "*be-panaah*" and apart from one entry, this is the meaning that readily fitted the context. The one out of pattern meaning that I  did find was indeed equivalent to be-shumaar.

e.g *be-panaah* 3aqiidat ..*a lot of* devotion/ no end of devotion, *be-panaah* izaafah..*a huge* increase..be-panaah kaam-yaabii..*great *success, be-panaah xvaahishaat..a *great many* wishes etc etc

As you would be fully aware, *be-panaah *is not Panjabi per se. Here are three examples of its usage by Urdu users.

fard-i-3amal siyaah kiye jaa rahaa huuN maiN
raHmat ko *be-panaah* kiye jaa rahaa huuN maiN

(Jigar Muradabadi)

I am not 100% sure whether "*be-panaah*" here means "limitless" or "without shelter". But in the following two examples, the meaning is quite clear.

thii muHabbat jis ko mujh se beHisaab-o-*bepanaah* 
saaHib-i-diivaaN Quli, 3arz-i-dakkan kaa baadshah

[Mohammed bin Husain Naqeeb (Hyderabad-India)]

In the above "mujh se" = "Urdu se".

"jab is kaa Zikr maiN ne apne mehrbaan aur a'zeez dost Swami jee se kiyaa to unhoN ne bataayaa keh yeh Ghazal :Anwar: Mirzapuri kee hai aur apnee *be-panaah* yaad-daasht se nikaal kar unhoN ne is Ghazal ke chand ash,a'ar likh bheje jo darj-e-Zel haiN.."

[Sarwar Alam Sarwar (Jabalpur-India)]

Is this usage current in Farsi. Well, I have only found "be/bii panaah" to mean "Without shelter".


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## Faylasoof

As was stated earlier, _*be-panaah*_ is commonly used to mean numerous / countless etc.,


Faylasoof said:


> We normally say <laa ta'daad>, <be hadd>, <be Hisaab> <be shumaar> in the context of something being countless. There is also <anginat>. Usage depends on what is being considered.
> 
> لاتعداد ۔/ بے شمار۔/ ان گنت / بے حساب  etc.etc.
> 
> We use <be panaah> but only when we wish to be _highly emphatic_.


 But its _emphatic_ use is not just for countable items but also signifies _intensity_: 

سردی میں بے پناہ اضافہ ہوگیا ہے
_sardii meN be-panaah iDhaafah ho gayaa hai_
_The cold (weather) has become intense  _


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## marrish

About _bhaaNt-bhaaNt kii/ke_ بھانت بھانت کے... 





Cilquiestsuens said:


> Well, I must tell you that I had read it in Hindi literature and never happened to hear it in India -but I'm sure it must be used somewhere. When I came to PK I was surprised to hear it actually used by Urdu speakers... and discovered later it was also used in Punjabi...
> 
> So it's another word which is Punjabi and Hindi also.... It is also an entry in Ferozul lughaat..... I'm going to check its etymology (no doubt it is derived from sanskrit and revert to you, IA)


I use this and heard it used of course. It is also used in writing but I can't remember if I ever read it in good literature or just in newspapers. It can be well used to mean ''numerous'' but not ''numerous of one kind'' - numerous and different from one another. Etymology: _khaRii bolii_ and it must have got something with _bhed_.

But I have to confess that I haven't really heard anything like this in Punjabi.


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## Qureshpor

I too would use bhaaNt-bhaaNt ke in my speech and have heard it in Urdu speech as well as writing. For me the meaning is not "numerous" but "a variety of"..."all sorts of", "an array of". In other words tarH tarH ke

is dunyaa meN aap ko bhaaNt-bhaaNt ke logoN se vaastah paRe gaa.


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## Wolverine9

For etymology, Turner derives it from _bhakti _x _bhaṅgĭ̄_.  Platts lists two pronunciations: _bhāṅti _and _bhāṅt_.  I think _bhāṅti _is more common in Hindi and maybe _bhāṅt _is more common in Urdu.  

From Platts: H بهانت भांति _bhāṅti_, भांत _bhāṅt_ s.f. Way, manner, mode, method, style, fashion; variety, kind, sort, class;—_bhāṅṭ-bhāṅṭ_ or _bhāṅti-bhāṅti_ (-_ke_), adj. Various kinds (of), various, diverse, of many kinds or sorts, miscellaneous, multifarious:—_aććhī bhāṅt_, _bhalī-bhāṅt_, adv. Well, thoroughly, fully, quite, soundly, severely, &c.:—_isī bhāṅti_, adv. In this very way:—_kisī bhāṅti_ adv. By some means, somehow:—_merī bhāṅti_, In my way, like me.


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## marrish

^ Thanks for sharing this research. I also think _bhaaNti_ is more common in Hindi than _bhaaNt_ but in Urdu the latter is used. I would not risk a statement about bhaaNt for Urdu and bhaaNti for Hindi being used proportionally more. Still I am pretty sure _bhaaNti_ is not used in Urdu, perhaps _bhaaNt*ii*_ may be but if it is it would be quite exotic.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> About _bhaaNt-bhaaNt kii/ke_ بھانت بھانت کے... I use this and heard it used of course. It is also used in writing but I can't remember if I ever read it in good literature or just in newspapers. It can be well used to mean ''numerous'' but not ''numerous of one kind'' - numerous and different from one another. Etymology: _khaRii bolii_ and it must have got something with _bhed_.
> But I have to confess that I haven't really heard anything like this in Punjabi.


 Interestingly, marrish SaaHib, we don’t use  بھانت بھانت کے in either our speech or even informal writing! Some of course use it.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> I too would use bhaaNt-bhaaNt ke in my speech and have heard it in Urdu speech as well as writing. For me the meaning is not "numerous" but "a variety of"..."all sorts of", "an array of". In other words tarH tarH ke
> 
> is dunyaa meN aap ko bhaaNt-bhaaNt ke logoN se vaastah paRe gaa.




معزرت خواہ ہوں، مگر ہم لوگ جنكی ٹكسالی زبان اردو ہی ہے اسے  بھدی اور پست اردو كا شاہكار نمومہ سمجھیں گے، اور اپنی زبان میں اسے اس طرح كہیں گے

اس دنیا میں آپ كو طرح طرح كے \ كئی طرح كے \ كئی نوعیت  كے \ كئی وضع كے لوگوں سے
واسطہ ہوگا \ پڑے گا
_is dunyaa meN aap ko TarH TarH ke / ka'ii Tarh / ka'ii nau3iyyat ke / ka'ii waDh3 (waDha3) ke logoN se waas*i*Tah ho gaa / paRe gaa_


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## Sheikh_14

سردی میں بے پناہ اضافہ ہوگیا ہے
_sardii meN be-panaah iDhaafah ho gayaa hai_
_The cold (weather) has become intense  _[/QUOTE]

Just a question concerning your transliteration Faylasoof sahib, is there any reason in particular why you have written Izafa as iDhaafah i.e. its Arabic variant, is the capital D an indicator of the fact that it is meant to be pronounced with a z sound or merely a pedantic whimsy.


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## littlepond

Coming back to "panaah", Qureshpor jii's analysis of taking it as "limit" makes a lot of sense: just like "had" means limit, and thus "behad" means limitless, a lot of, intense. "bepanaah" can be taken to be a synonym of "behad" in most contexts: just that former is much more poetic to me.


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