# Guy, guys (age/sex/acceptability of?)



## -jul1a-

Hi. I am looking for a precise definition of the word "guy." I know it is used for males. But is there a certain age group for which it is normally used? I've heard of it being used for males of all ages, but my impression is it's used more to describe either men or young males that we can call adolescents (in other words, males from the age of 12 or 13 roughly), than for people younger than that, in other words, children. Am I right?


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## cuchuflete

Hello Jul1a,
Welcome to the forums.

We have had other discussions about this word, and have established that in the US it it used by both males and females to refer to both males and females!  I know of no rule or tendency regarding age groups.  I can just say from personal experience that it's often used to address young children, as when a soccer coach calls a team of 6 year olds.

regards,
Cuchuflete


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## Brioche

I think that 'a guy' (singular) still means a male.

"Who's that new guy she's with?"  would mean male person.

The phrase "It's a guy thing"  refers to something about males.


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## hamishh

Hi Jul1a,

I doubt you'll find a precise definition... Your question piqued my interest, so I have had a think and a search...

The New Oxford is less than helpful:* 

guy NOUN 1. informal* a man: _he's a nice guy. _

My answer to your question would be that in current general usage the lower age limit for calling any one man a guy is about the mid-teens, but that it depends largely on the age of the speaker: At age twenty-four I would rarely call any one male under the age of 17 a guy, and I would be unlikely to use the word for a man over the age of, say, 40. The appropriate age given by a given speaker would, I imagine, increase with the speaker's age.

Context, context, context...

As chuchuflette has suggested, the case of the plural form _guys _is more complicated. If if in 1966 Wodehouse used it as an antonym of _dolls_,

*1966* Wodehouse _Plum Pie_ i. 32 All the other places..had been full of  guys and dolls standing bumper to bumper. (OED online)

I heard only yesterday a young Australian twentysomething woman calling out to her exclusively female group of friends:

2005 Australian Girl on Street Come on guys, lets blow this popsicle stand! (Source: unreliable.)

This plural usage need not be age- or gender-specific.

Just to make things more complicated, take one of Jonathan Green's five definitions: guy was used in Australia in the early 20th century to mean "a fool"

guy n.3 1. [1910s+] (Aus) a fool. (Jonathan Green, Cassell's dictionary of Slang)

and in the U.S. in the 1920s, a woman!

guy n.2 2. [1920s+] (US) a woman. (Jonathan Green, Cassell's dictionary of Slang)

Sorry, not very precise...


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## Brioche

"Guy" as an antonym for "Doll" dates from before 1966

There's the musical "Guys and Dolls", first staged in 1950, so it's probably older than that. 
In the show guys means men.

When you meet a gent paying all kinds of rent 
for  a flat that could flatten the Taj Mahal. 
Call it sad, call it funny. But it's  better than even money. 
That the guy's only doing it for some doll!


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## GenJen54

Hi Julia, 

Welcome to the forums!  You might take a look at this thread, which should give you most specific instances of how it is used in everyday language. I would say its use in AE is broader than in BE.

In short, the following could apply:

small boy - singular "Hey, little guy, want to go play some ball?"
young man/ man - singular:  "She went out with a really cute guy last night."
group of young boys/men - plural - "Hey, Guys"
mixed-gendered group of young people "Hey, Guys"

Where I _personally_ take umbrage is when I am with a group of females only and someone approaches us and greets us with a "Hey, guys." If we were teenagers, I could probably let it go, but women of a certain age should not be referred to as "guy."


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## duder

I'm not sure if I really follow these "rules" all the time, but I think that my usage of "guy" goes something like this:

singular: applicable to males a few years my junior and onward. Often modified with adjectives - _an older guy, a young guy, a guy my age_. Males that are  more than a few years younger are usually _kids_ or something else. _Guy_ is considerably less formal to me than _man_ (except when addressing someone directly, in which case the latter is more common), and also has a more informal cousin, _dude_.

plural: Informally can refer to a group of males with the same caveats as above, but when addressing people directly (e.g. _Hey guys_) they would generally have to be near my own age or younger. I would expect a lot of people to use _guys_ to refer to groups of mixed gender, but normally don't do it myself. Gender neutral alternatives include _you all_, _everyone_, and others. More formal alternatives might be _gents_, _fellows_, or _men_. I don't hear or use _dudes_ as much as the singular form.


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## -jul1a-

hamishh said:
			
		

> Hi Jul1a,
> 
> I doubt you'll find a precise definition... Your question piqued my interest, so I have had a think and a search...
> 
> The New Oxford is less than helpful:
> 
> *guy NOUN 1. informal* a man: _he's a nice guy. _
> 
> My answer to your question would be that in current general usage the lower age limit for calling any one man a guy is about the mid-teens, but that it depends largely on the age of the speaker: At age twenty-four I would rarely call any one male under the age of 17 a guy, and I would be unlikely to use the word for a man over the age of, say, 40. The appropriate age given by a given speaker would, I imagine, increase with the speaker's age.
> 
> Context, context, context...
> 
> As chuchuflette has suggested, the case of the plural form _guys _is more complicated. If if in 1966 Wodehouse used it as an antonym of _dolls_,
> 
> *1966* Wodehouse _Plum Pie_ i. 32 All the other places..had been full of guys and dolls standing bumper to bumper. (OED online)
> 
> I heard only yesterday a young Australian twentysomething woman calling out to her exclusively female group of friends:
> 
> *2005 *Australian Girl on Street Come on guys, lets blow this popsicle stand! (Source: unreliable.)
> 
> This plural usage need not be age- or gender-specific.
> 
> Just to make things more complicated, take one of Jonathan Green's five definitions: _guy _was used in Australia in the early 20th century to mean "a fool"
> 
> *guy* _n.3 _*1. *[1910s+] (Aus) a fool. (Jonathan Green, _Cassell's dictionary of Slang_)
> 
> and in the U.S. in the 1920s, a woman!
> 
> *guy* _n.2_ *2. *[1920s+] (US) a woman. (Jonathan Green, _Cassell's dictionary of Slang_)
> 
> Sorry, not very precise...


 
I will give some instances in which I have heard the word "guy" being used. I often hear people at school and on TV shows, especially teenagers, say "guy" as the opposite of "girl" as an alternative to the word "boy", as in "the girls and the guys" or "girl and guy friends". I also see that type of thing on web sites, in books and in magazines for teens, where they use the word "guys" and the word "girls" to specify teenagers of both genders. When they talk about children, they tend to use the words "boys" and "girls". 

I will give some more examples: 

"Is that a guy or a girl?" 
"Guys are better at this than girls." 
"There are (this many) guys and (this many) girls in our class." 
So, is it mainly teenagers that would say things like these, more than young children, and is it mostly _teenage_ boys that would consider themselves guys? Does the lower age limit for calling a male person a guy also depend on the gender of the speaker as well as their age?


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## JLanguage

-jul1a- said:
			
		

> Hi. I am looking for a precise definition of the word "guy." I know it is used for males. But is there a certain age group for which it is normally used? I've heard of it being used for males of all ages, but my impression is it's used more to describe either men or young males that we can call adolescents (in other words, males from the age of 12 or 13 roughly), than for people younger than that, in other words, children. Am I right?


 
Anyone more than a year or two older than I am is a guy, anyone who's not is a kid. Guy could refer to someone very old as well. Ex. "
This old guy came up to me and asked me how I was doing. He seemed kind of creepy so I told him to 'get the hell away from me'."


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## MarcB

As the many posts show it varies from region to region and age group. during different periods of time/history as well. I would say for most people alive today it is definitely for males and plural includes both males and females but often it is used in singular for females.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *MarcB*
> but often it is used in singular for females.



No offense, Marc, as this may be part of yours or other generation's usage, but I have been, and will be continue to be offended when someone calls me "guy." Despite what dictionaries may cite as a definition, the last time I checked, I was not a guy.

If called this in mixed plural company, such as "Hey, guys," I have no problem.


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## TrentinaNE

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Where I _personally_ take umbrage is when I am with a group of females only and someone approaches us and greets us with a "Hey, guys." If we were teenagers, I could probably let it go, but women of a certain age should not be referred to as "guy."


My skin also crawls when waitstaff at casual-but-not-cheap restaurants ask my husband and me "Are you guys ready to order?" Said waitstaff are usually young enough to be our children. Really, is it so difficult to say "May I take your order now?" or to substitute "you folks" or just "you" for "you guys"?


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## majlo

Can that word refer to females too? I've always thought that it can only refer to males but I've heard a couple of times actors in movies say e.g. What's up guys? when there are girls around. How is it then?


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## GenJen54

HERE is another thread where we've recently discussed this.  It's a personal matter, really. 

In short however:

group of all males = guys
mixed group of males/females= guys
group of all females = guys (?) 

I personally don't refer to myself as a guy and don't appreciate it if and when in a restaurant sitting with a group of all female friends a waiter or waitress approaches my table with a cheery "Hey, guys....."  BLEGGCH!


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## tonch

Yeah it's probably a preference thing.

I'm sure i say things like "What do you guys think?" to groups of female or female/male friends.


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## tZeD

In areas like Toronto, though, where "you guys" is the normal 2nd person plural pronoun, it doesn't refer to any gender specifically. So I would certainly use it (in casual speech) if I'm talking to a group of females.

As a noun, though, I think it's male, even when it's not specifically contrasted with a female term like girl. If somone said to me, "This guy came up to me and was like...," I would automatically interpret that as a male (around 16 and older though), and "the guys are coming over," I think, rules out a mixed group. Although, as a secondary meaning, it refers to the kind of friends that are stereotypical guys (the ones you get together with to go down to the pub and watch a hockey game e.g.) and this implies being male but not necessarily, since you can say things like "she's one of the guys." That, I think, covers the way the word is used around me.


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## GiggLiden

riglos said:
			
		

> Hi everyone!
> 
> I'd like to know it it's Ok to say "hi people" when refering to only 2 persons. If not, could you tell how to say it?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Mara.



It's okay, although I find it a little strange. But what I find even stranger ... is someone who says ...

"Hi, guys ..."

to three WOMEN !!!


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## XepC

> It's okay, although I find it a little strange. But what I find even stranger ... is someone who says ...
> 
> "Hi, guys ..."
> 
> to three WOMEN !!!


 
... as seen on TV so many times, by the way


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## fenixpollo

Here's a thread (click) about "you guys." Basically, we native English-speakers are confused because the *second* person pronoun is the same for singular and plural -- "you." 

So... how do you distinguish between singular and plural when you address people? 

In the Southern U.S., many people use *y'all *(_you all_), while on the coasts it's more often *you guys* (or _youse guys_). Also in use are *people*, *peeps*, *folks*, *dudes* and *everybody*.

It's perfectly natural for me to refer to a group of 3+ women as "guys."

_Hey, guys, what's up? What does everybody want to eat today?_

Cheers, all._ _


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## GiggLiden

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Here's a thread (click) about "you guys."  Basically, we native English-speakers are confused because the third person pronoun is the same for singular and plural -- "you."
> 
> So... how do you distinguish between singular and plural when you address people?
> 
> In the Southern U.S., many people use *y'all *(_you all_), while on the coasts it's more often *you guys* (or _youse guys_).  Also in use are *people*, *peeps*, *folks*, *dudes* and *everybody*.
> 
> It's perfectly natural for me to refer to a group of 3+ women as "guys."
> 
> _ Hey, guys, what's up?  What does everybody want to eat today?_
> 
> Cheers, all._ _



*SINGULAR*
I
you
he/she/it

*PLURAL*
we
you
they*

*the third person pronoun is the same for singular and plural ???
They look quite different to ME!


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## Brioche

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> It's perfectly natural for me to refer to a group of 3+ women as "guys."
> 
> Cheers, all._ _


 
Would you have done that when you were 25? When you were 15?

If someone said "She's going out with a new guy" could "guy" mean a woman?

If a woman says "Look at those hot guys over there!", could it mean a group of women?


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## fenixpollo

Brioche said:
			
		

> Would you have done that when you were 25? When you were 15?


 Yes. I was always more closely tuned into California culture than any other, although I never used "dude" too heavily, except as an exclamation of amazement. 

When I lived in Texas, I occasionally said "y'all" not because I like it, but just to avoid funny looks.

For me, you are all just "guys."

See you guys later.


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## nd23

I agree with fenixpollo. At least in California "you guys" has become in many ways the plural form of "you", kind of like the Spanish "ustedes/vosotros". I personally use it all the time with both men and women. It's an entirely natural verbal construction.


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## GenJen54

HERE's yet another thread on the subject.



			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> It's perfectly natural for me to refer to a group of 3+ women as "guys."  _Hey, guys, what's up? What does everybody want to eat today?_


I understand the tendancy to do this towards women of your same age group, or younger. But, would you greet ladies of your mother's age in the same manner? What about ladies of your grandmother's age? Do they command the same casual designate?

Would "Hi ladies," not be just as easy to say in such a situation? Or, how about "Hey, folks" (although folks is usually used for mixed company.)

I'm not judging, just trying to figure out where the proverbial line is drawn, if at all.


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## fenixpollo

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I understand the tendancy to do this towards women of your same age group, or younger. But, would you greet ladies of your mother's age in the same manner? What about ladies of your grandmother's age? Do they command the same casual designate?
> 
> Would "Hi ladies," not be just as easy to say in such a situation? Or, how about "Hey, folks" (although folks is usually used for mixed company.)


  It would depend on the relationship... I would call a group of my older female coworkers "guys", but not my mother's friends.  I often use "ladies" if I want to sound more formal or if "guys" is not appropriate.  I don't use "folks" except to refer to someone's parents... it just doesn't sound "cool" for some reason.


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## HistofEng

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> It would depend on the relationship... I would call a group of my older female coworkers "guys", but not my mother's friends. I often use "ladies" if I want to sound more formal or if "guys" is not appropriate. I don't use "folks" except to refer to someone's parents... it just doesn't sound "cool" for some reason.


 

I'm from New York and Miami originally and I follow fenixpollo's usage of "guys" exactly, too!!!


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## hohodicestu

Hi everyone,

can someone please tell me if it is appropriate to use "guys" among girls?

Thanks


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## ArtemisTwo

Informally, it's a fairly common usage, especially among younger people, but a lot of older people find it annoying and I wouldn't suggest you use it in any kind of formal context (at work, for example, or in addressing someone much older or higher status than you).


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## GenJen54

Here are a few threads on the subject where we have already discussed the subject at length.  It depends on who you are asking, and certainly on who you are talking to:

Thread ONE

Thread TWO.

In short, I agree more or less with what Artemis says. 

If someone were to address me (a female) singularly as "Hey guy," I would be offended.  

If someone were to address me in a group of female friends as "hey guys," I would be mildly annoyed.

If someone were to address me in a group of mixed company as "hey guys," I would not bat an eye.

If someone were to address my mother, grandmother or any group of female people older than myself as "hey guys," I would give them a good verbal lashing right then and there.  

Guys is certainly colloquial, and should not be used in any formal context, or in polite company.


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## hohodicestu

Artemistwo -  Thank you

It helps a lot. I used it once with the people at work and they gave me a weird look.


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## river

"'Nowadays, very few speakers would consider 'you guys' male only,' said Sean McLennan, a doctoral student in linguistics at Indiana University. He has written an academic paper on the gender uses of "guy," "guys" and "you guys" and finds evidence that even "guy" is edging toward gender neutrality."  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2001942543_youguys01.html


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## GenJen54

Thus retorts Miss Manners: "The language of respect is fading out of use everywhere. ... You guys have a problem with this?" 

The next time you and your male friends/colleagues are grouped and someone comes up to say "hey gals," then tell me how it feels.

Interesting article, by the way.  I personally like the influence of ya'll.  Glad to know it might be creeping northward.  At least that is wholly neutral.


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## cj427

Oh, I hate being greeted with "Hey gals!"  It feels like we're about to have a conversation about "that not-so-fresh feeling".

"Dudes" is my personal favorite.  I would say that "dude" is gender-neutral.


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## GenJen54

cj427 said:
			
		

> "Dudes" is my personal favorite. I would say that "dude" is gender-neutral.


 
Dudes reminds me of the pot-toking, Vans-wearing hipsters from the 1980s (Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure) I went to high school with.

It's even more casual than "guys" to my ear.    

I mean, would you really go up to your grandmother and a group of her lady friends and greet them with a rousing "Hey dudes"?

I am going to conjecture that we are experiencing a great divide of: 

a. geography 
b. generation

I am from an area very near the South where "traditional" niceties are still a part of everyday speech.  I am also probably about twenty years older than you, which is why we experience these words differently.

Welcome to the Forums, by the way!


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## Johnny Blaze

Hey guy? - Dosen't exist

Hey guys - I've heard girls say this to each other in groups all the time and obviously in a mixed group it's perfectly fine. So yes you can use it!



			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> If someone were to address my mother, grandmother or any group of female people older than myself as "hey guys," I would give them a good verbal lashing right then and there.



Ah now come on..............



			
				cj427 said:
			
		

> "Dudes" is my personal favorite.  I would say that "dude" is gender-neutral.



Only your stereotypical American skater would ever say "Hey Dudes" LOL.


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## GenJen54

Johnny Blaze said:
			
		

> Hey guy? - Dosen't exist


This might be an AE/BE difference. I have heard "Hey guy" frequently. It's used in the same vein as "hey man."



> Ah now come on..............


I'm sorry, I just find it rude. Color me old-fashioned, but I just find that women of a certain age should not be addressed as "guy" or "dude," and in these contexts I find their use to be disrespectful. 

Both words are perfectly appropriate - and yes! I do use "guy" - in more casual conversation among "younger" peers. (Perhaps "Generation X" and younger.) 

Please see my post # 8 for a further explanation of this.


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## Johnny Blaze

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> This might be an AE/BE difference. I have heard "Hey guy" frequently. It's used in the same vein as "hey man."



Must be. It sounds totally wrong to me. Hey Dude OK... but Hey Guy?


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## DavyBCN

Johnny Blaze said:
			
		

> Must be. It sounds totally wrong to me. Hey Dude OK... but Hey Guy?


 
I blame it all on "Bill and Ted's Great Adventure"! BE has never been the same since we let that film into the country.


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## southerngal

As a female, speaking for myself only, I don't mind guys at all, whether I'm in a mixed group or a group of females.  As others have said, of course, it's very colloquial.  However, the singular form _guy_ would be very awkward and odd to me.

My advice is if you aren't certain how it will be received, don't use it.


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## mytwolangs

Guys is more gender neutral, kind of like the french word "ils" when the group is mixed gender. 
If it is all women, than Ladies" would be better, but even then, you might get away with "guys"


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## cj427

Dude may have started out in skater/surfer slang (actually, doesn't it originally come from cowboy slang?  e.g. "dude ranches"), but it's pretty widely used on the west coast these days - especially by people under 30.

I think you're right, GenJen - this is an generational/geographical divide.  But I can't imagine getting by without the word "dude".  It's so useful in so many other ways as well...


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## nohablo

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> Guys is more gender neutral, kind of like the french word "ils" when the group is mixed gender.


Hmmm...I remember a teacher in school who insisted that "men" was gender neutral because it included both men and women, as in "all men are created equal."  Sorry, but I don't buy that, nor do I buy "ils" (or the Spanish "ellos") as gender neutral.  They seem about as gender neutral as "men" -- that is, not at all!


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## foxfirebrand

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I personally like the influence of ya'll.  Glad to know it might be creeping northward.


I agree wholeheartedly!

But I hope it can creep north without the apostrophe creeping one letter to the right like that.
.


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## eac

As an _address_, I would say "guys" is generic enough to be used for female plural.  (In informal contexts, of course.)

Hey Sue and Mary, what are you guys up to?
Come on, guys, let's get to our Girl Scout meeting.

Neither of the above sentences sounds strange to me.  Careful, though!  If you're not using it as an address, but as a referent in discourse, it will indeed sound odd when applied to women.

*Sue and Mary are great guys.
*Some of the guys from the sorority came over last night.

By the way, I wouldn't put much stock in Miss Manners's analogy.  "Gal" sounds archaic today, but "guy" is still a very common word.  They should not be considered parallel.


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## Yôn

nohablo said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I don't buy that, nor do I buy "ils" (or the Spanish "ellos") as gender neutral. They seem about as gender neutral as "men" -- that is, not at all!


Okay, so in place of _ellos_ what would you use to refer to a mixed group?  Would you use _ellos y ellas_?  If there are four men, and one woman, _ellos y ella_? Seems to complicate things too much by trying to redefine the language so it can fit to what you think is right. My point being that _ellos_ is male AND gender neutral   It's status as a masculine noun has NOTHING to do with sex.

As for the _guy _thing.  Perhaps _man_ is falling out of use as gender neutral and _guy_ is filling its place.

If _guy_ is gender neutral, then using _hey gals_ as a counter example is no good, because _gals_ (a word I hardly ever hear) is gender SPECIFIC!

Now, I would use _guys_ for a group of people my own age of any type, or anyone I was on a casual basis with. Girls use it too, so I don't think I'm far off in space doing it. 

Most likely, it is a generation thing.  As for _dude_, I think it just sounds dumb... I'd only use it to refer to a male of "lower intelligence."

When I walk into work, and my superiors say "Hey Jon"... whether they are male or female, I usually great the group with a "Howdy guys/y'all/folks," and I've yet to get any looks other than smiles .




Jon


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## maxiogee

My first contact with "guys" as anything other that a group of males wwas back in the early '70s when I took a boating holiday on the River Shannon. The vessel was an old Guinness' barge which had been restored and remodelled asnd now slept 10 guests and two crew. Among the guests were three American women (all teachers from California) and they regularly addressed the other two with "Hey, guys…" and "Do you guys…" I was confused by this but was informed that it was quite normal and proper in their milieu.

Personally, I make a lot of use of "folks" when addressing mixed groups.


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## southerngal

Eac, you've made an excellent point that never occurred to me.  There's a huge difference between addressing a group of females:  _Hey guys, it's time to go_ *vs* referring to a group of females as _guys_.  Thanks for pointing that out.


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## river

This caught my eye in the newspaper last week:

"Inevitably referred to as "among the most beautiful actresses in Hollywood," Robin Wright Penn is also a good *guy*--imaginative, relaxed and, when she chooses, pretty funny." _ Parade: The Sunday Newspaper Magazine_ Dec. 3, 2006


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## caballoschica

guy in that sense i think is for sure connected to "good"  Like when they talk about good guys and bad guys, protagonists and antagonists.  I've also heard "good fellow" when referring to a female.  It does seem odd there nonetheless...


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## maxiogee

caballoschica said:


> guy in that sense i think is for sure connected to "good"  Like when they talk about good guys and bad guys, protagonists and antagonists.  I've also heard "good fellow" when referring to a female.  It does seem odd there nonetheless...



(detouring off-topic for a moment)

Protagonists/antagonists are not good/bad guys.

A protagonist was merely the main character in a Greek drama, and an antagonist was someone who struggled against something.


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## caballoschica

sorry about that.  Thanks for the correction.

I wasn't as clear as I should've been.  

I don't think "men" is gender neutral as "ellos" is in spanish.  And I do think that "ellos" is gender neutral 

I don't really use "dude" to really refer to anyone.  I just kind've exclaim it as a Cool! Sometimes, I say, "man" in that sense.  These usages normally come out when I'm watching professional tennis matches of high quality.  Especially between the shot-makers.  Mom calls me a "dudette" every once in awhile and she is not insulting my intelligence.  Oh yes, there are dude ranches.  Everyone who's from the East or hasn't rode a horse or rides English is a "dude."  I'd say the majority of us are.  I'm a dude in that sense.  I ride English.  

I've heard hey guys and gals.  

I like folks.  It is nice and gender neutral no matter what way you look at it.


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## vindack

If you see a bunch of girls, do you say 'How you guys doing?' is that correct? Or should you say '(what are you) "girls" (doing)? '? Thank You


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## edval89

You could say girls or guys and make sense, if it's all girls.

If there's one guy with a bunch of girls, it would be offensive to say "how are you girls doing?" so you would say "How are you guys doing?"

Hope I helped!

-edv


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## vindack

edval89 said:


> You could say girls or guys and make sense, if it's all girls.
> 
> If there's one guy with a bunch of girls, it would be offensive to say &quot;how are you girls doing?&quot; so you would say &quot;How are you guys doing?&quot;
> 
> Hope I helped!
> 
> -edv



 Thanks a bunch for a quick reply!


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## Orange Blossom

It depends on where you are.  I had some friends from Texas say that there and in other southern states girls and women aren't called guys whether in a mixed group or not.  Their reaction is "I'm not a guy."  So, I would say "folks" if it is a mixed group.

Orange Blossom


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## Thomas Tompion

I seem to have upset some people when I started a post *'Hi guys'*. Some people objected because they were female and others objected because it was youth-speak. I've not known what to call a mixed group of AE and BE speakers of various ages, as an informal greeting, since.  *Ladies and gentlemen* seemed formal and left out one or two, and I couldn't bring myself to say *fellas*, which might have provoked more reaction.


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## word_up

GenJen54 said:


> No offense, Marc, as this may be part of yours or other generation's usage, but I have been, and will be continue to be offended when someone calls me "guy." Despite what dictionaries may cite as a definition, the last time I checked, I was not a guy.
> 
> If called this in mixed plural company, such as "Hey, guys," I have no problem.



HELLO
It's an old topic, but I thought of the word because I used this word today in a semi-official setting.

So to my question:
what would you suggest to use for a group of: 1)young 2) middle aged women instead of "guys" ? Let's say that a waitress in a restaurant addresses such a group ;D ?

and the 2nd:
Is it polite enough to use this in such settings: a lecturer adresses a group of students (of both sexes/genders?)? / you get acquainted with a group of people of varying ages and you together go to a bar/pub for a drink and conversation?


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## HistofEng

word_up said:


> HELLO
> It's an old topic, but I thought of the word because I used this word today in a semi-official setting.
> 
> So to my question:
> what would you suggest to use for a group of: 1)young 2) middle aged women instead of "guys" ? Let's say that a waitress in a restaurant addresses such a group ;D ?
> 
> and the 2nd:
> Is it polite enough to use this in such settings: a lecturer adresses a group of students (of both sexes/genders?)? / you get acquainted with a group of people of varying ages and you together go to a bar/pub for a drink and conversation?


 

For the first one, I'm not quite sure what I would say. "Hi ladies", perhaps.

For a lecturer addressing his mixed-gender students, I would probably say "you all", but, depending on the context, I might not object to "you guys".


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## TrentinaNE

word_up said:


> what would you suggest to use for a group of: 1)young 2) middle aged women instead of "guys" ? Let's say that a waitress in a restaurant addresses such a group ;D ?


Why is there a need to "address them" at all? A simple, "Hello. May I take your order?" is sufficient in my book, and much preferable to "Hello, guys." Ugh. But if an "address" is deemed necessary, I suggest "Hello, everyone." That works for men as well as women. 

Elisabetta


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## word_up

Thanks, both of you!

I asked, because I have addressed a group of students "Hello guys" today,
and had second thought that this was maybe impolite.

(this wasn't a lecture, I had just been asked to tell them about my place of work)


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## twinklestar

Could someone tell me why the word of 'guy' could be used to address people no matter female or male today, especially in the US?

Are there any other native speakers who might not like to be addressed as 'guys' outside the US? 

I looked up its etymology and found it referred to grotesquesly or poorly dressed person. Here's the URL link about the etymology. 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=guy&searchmode=none

Thanks in advance!


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## nzfauna

In contemporary English, "guy" means "a man/a male".

However, it is also sometimes used int the plural "guys" to refer to a group of people (even if that people has females in it).  Some speakers will refer to "guys and girls" though.


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## TrentinaNE

twinklestar said:


> Could someone tell me why the word of 'guy' could be used to address people no matter female or male today, especially in the US?


Laziness? 

Elisabetta


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## fenixpollo

twinklestar said:


> Could someone tell me why the word of 'guy' could be used to address people no matter female or male today, especially in the US?


 Because modern English has no distinct 2nd-person plural pronoun. We must use "you" when talking to one or twenty people. So many people use a regionally-acceptable pronoun, such as you guys or y'all, to pluralize "you". 

It's acceptable to address females in this way because English nouns lack gender and because it's linguistically standard (albeit sexist) to default to the masculine.


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## Nunty

It is linguistically standard in languages that have gender, yes. But English doesn't. I _detest_ being referred to as a guy. On the other hand, that could just be because I am middle-aged and intolerant. Forty years ago I didn't mind it.


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## morzh

Well, I know what "guy" means here in the US, and I do know the history of the word (Guy Fawkes).

While generally a neutral word here in the US, that can be made positive or negative depending whom it is used towards, or by addition of "good/bad", in the UK there's at least one more meaning (due to the word's history) of a questionably dressed person.

Question: if used in the traditional US way ("hey there guys! " or "hey guy, what's up!") can it be misunderstood or sound offensive in the UK?

Moderators: I searched but found no discussion; feel free to concatenate if you know you have one already.


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## PaulQ

It's neutral and informal in the UK too. e.g.
"I was speaking to this guy the other day, and he told me that..."
"See that guy over there? The one with the black jacket?..."
"Were you the guy who knocked at my door yesterday? I couldn't come to the door, I was in the bath."


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## morzh

But I guess, as a direct addressing it is not as popular? Or is it? I mean, it would have to compete with "lad/chap/bloke"...what else is there?
Like in "Hey guys!" - would you hear it as much in the UK as you would here?


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## PaulQ

But I guess, as a direct addressing it is not as popular? Yes, that's true. 
"Hey guys!" - would you hear it as much in the UK as you would here? 				That's very AE. I doubt I have ever heard it.


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## panjandrum

Using "guy" or "guys" can trigger very strong reaction.

Today's posts have been added to the most relevant previous thread on this topic.
Sorry it's a bit long, but ... ...


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## Copperknickers

'Guys' and 'hey guys' are universally used amongst young Brits these days to refer to any group of people, even if it's all girls. It might get a sarky comment in reply if used for the latter, but it's very common to do so nonetheless, and not offensive at all.


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## Distance

I have to admit that as a young Brit, I do use "you guys" etc. quite often. I wouldn't say it's purely American.


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## DonnyB

No, I agree: it's in fairly common use in BE now without sounding especially American.  When I was still at work, we even had a manager (female, 30-ish) who used to address everyone, male and female, young and old, as "you guys" at staff meetings.


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## JazzByChas

I would have to agree with FenixPollo: modern (and even older) English does not have a distinct second person plural. We have to use the word "you" in both instances. I think that, even though I use 'guys' to address males, females, or a group, I believe it would work best to say, "ladies" or "gentlemen" to address a group of females and males, respectively, using "everyone" or "ladies and gentlemen" or "gentile people" to address a mixed group. Saying "gals" or "dolls" or "tootsies" to refer to a group of females would be a tad informal, if not slightly vulgar. Now, if I'm addressing senior women, I might first refer to them as "ladies," and upon getting to know them better "young ladies" if I wanted to get on their good side.

*Bottom line:* English needs a good second person plural like _"Ustedes"_ in Spanish.
{Thought: "Ladies", "gentlemen", "_Youen_"}


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## Hard-beat

GenJen54 said:


> Here are a few threads on the subject where we have already discussed the subject at length.  It depends on who you are asking, and certainly on who you are talking to:
> If someone were to address me (a female) singularly as "Hey guy," I would be offended.
> 
> If someone were to address me in a group of female friends as "hey guys," I would be mildly annoyed.
> 
> If someone were to address me in a group of mixed company as "hey guys," I would not bat an eye.
> 
> If someone were to address my mother, grandmother or any group of female people older than myself as "hey guys," I would give them a good verbal lashing right then and there.
> 
> Guys is certainly colloquial, and should not be used in any formal context, or in polite company.




I'm 26 and although I would not bat an eye if an all-girl group would be greeted with "Hey guys!" whether it'd be by a guy or a girl (both happen), I agree with everything else GenJen54 has said in this thread.

A younger person addressing a group of older ladies 'guys' or 'dudes' calls to my mind the image of a too-cool-for-school indifferent surfer bum taking your orders at a beach shack, followed by a "Rock on!" and hand sign. On the other hand, jokingly calling them 'birds' or 'chicks' accompanied with a cheeky grin I would find completely acceptable and would probably be met with laughter rather than unease. 

But maybe that's just me.


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## Hard-beat

eac said:


> Neither of the above sentences sounds strange to me.  Careful, though!  If you're not using it as an address, but as a referent in discourse, it will indeed sound odd when applied to women.



Good point to make! I have to say though, I have never heard 'guys' being used other than to directly address a group of girls.

Even for a mixed group it would sound strange to me.      
I'm going to have a drink with the guys.
I'm going to have a drink with the guys and Jes and Cleo.
I'm going to have a drink with the pack/troop/gang/bunch.


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## Hildy1

Several people above have mentioned the Southern U.S. "y'all", which I agree is useful. 

When I was growing up in the South, we said "y'all" only when speaking informally. I would not have said it when talking to older people. In formal situations we used the full "you all".


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## panzerfaust0

Hello.  It has been brought to my attention that addressing people, or more specifically, strangers, as "you guys", is rude.  I am just wondering what the consensus is on this.

To me, when someone calls a group of people "you guys", it sounds like these people are quite close to her.  And that she is treating them like friends, almost.  It's similar to saying "folks".  I actually do not consider this to be rude at all but apparently some people disagree.

What are your thoughts?


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## Egmont

This is a very informal expression. It might not be rude, but it can be. The answer depends very much on the social situation. I might address close friends that way, but I would not use this phrase to address strangers. 

Another factor is that some women do not mind being included in a group of "guys" of mixed sex, but some do.


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## panzerfaust0

Egmont said:


> This is a very informal expression. It might not be rude, but it can be. The answer depends very much on the social situation. I might address close friends that way, but I would not use this phrase to address strangers.
> 
> Another factor is that some women do not mind being included in a group of "guys" of mixed sex, but some do.



Thanks for the reply Egmont.

So, how should I address strangers then?


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## entangledbank

'You'


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## Chasint

It is the use of "You" as a form of address that causes the problem.

"You, come over here!"  
"You people are all the same."
"You guys, stop what you're doing."

All of the above are peremptory and presume some sort of superiority on the part of the speaker.

It's safer to simply say "Guys", e.g.

"Guys! Stop what you're doing and look at this."


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## Andygc

This has been discussed previously.
< ---- >
Folks/ guys / fellows

As far as I am concerned it is rude. To me the use of "you" is irrelevant. You will not get a consensus.

< Threads have been merged. Cagey, moderator >


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## panzerfaust0

Andygc said:


> As far as I am concerned it is rude.



Really?  Why?


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## Andygc

I do not need a reason to find it rude. I, like many others, find it a disrespectful way to be addressed by somebody who is a stranger.


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## panzerfaust0

Andygc said:


> I do not need a reason to find it rude. I, like many others, find it a disrespectful way to be addressed by somebody who is a stranger.



I see.

Maybe I will stick to just "you", then.  "Do you think this expression is good"?  "Do you find my new dress pretty?"  etc etc.


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## Andygc

Those are perfectly normal sentences in which "guys" or any alternative is unneccesary.


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## entangledbank

I didn't distinguish between vocatives and references.

Vocative: Excuse me, you guys, which way is Covent Garden?
Reference: Excuse me, do you guys know where Covent Garden is?

Don't use anything as a vocative, and use standard English 'you' as a reference. There's no need for anything more, and there's no need for a distinct plural form.


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## dojibear

There are different situations. Talking to a team you are part of, while walking someplace together, is a totally different situation than greeting strangers in an English Only forum, which is totally different than speaking to people from several companies at a business meeting, which is totally different than talking to a group of friends at a bar. You can't expect one rule (or one choice of words) to fit different situations.

I'll comment on the forum situation:

When starting a forum post, I usually avoid "labelling" the readers by using a noun for them. I start by explaining my point, or asking my question. The same is true for emails, except to people I know personally (Hi, Liz).

When I do use a word for people, I use "folks". I would never write "guys".

After my ideas, I may ask "What do you think?" or "What does everyone think?". There is no need to add a noun describing (labelling) the people I am talking to, and write "What do *you* *guys/folks/people/gurus/experts/leprechauns* think?"


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## DonnyB

Taking up specifically the point about using "[Hi] guys" in forum posts, there are known to be members who dislike it for various reasons, and that's their prerogative.  However, that doesn't _in my opinion_ give them the right to impose what amounts to their personal dislike on other members.  Whatever _you_ may think about the propriety of using "guys" - and there are understandably differing shades of opinion on this - I think it's important to make the point that members who address each other as "guys" are by and large not doing it to be deliberately disrespectful, rude, over-familiar or any of the other things they're being implicitly accused of.  They see it as a friendly introductory greeting which they'll have seen widely used elsewhere, possibly in other forums they use.  

If _you_ don't think they should and want to retaliate by taking offence and not just responding to their posts, fine - I doubt anybody much is going to care. But quite honestly, don't we have enough "rules" in the English Only forum that people carp about as it is, without having something else masquerading as a rule when it isn't one?


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## Keith Bradford

Donny, none of us ordinary users of this forum can "impose what amounts to their personal dislike on other members".  Only moderators have that power.

However, if we are offended we have the right to say so, and we may hope that others recognise the problem.  I for one don't like being called *guy *or *dude *by anyone.  Certainly not by the waiter some 50 years my younger, taking my wife's and my order in a Stratford pub (_What can I get you guys?_).  Did he realise we would be annoyed?  No, of course not, or he wouldn't have said it.  Did we point out the problem to him?  Yes, of course, it's all part of his training.  Was he more careful from then on?  We may hope so.

Perhaps there's some simple guidance like:

Don't put _guys _in writing to people you don't know.
Don't pronounce it to anyone in long trousers unless they're wearing a baseball cap.
_Hey guys!  ...............................Hey guys!_ ​​


 



Hey Guy!


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## DonnyB

Keith Bradford said:


> Donny, none of us ordinary users of this forum can "impose what amounts to their personal dislike on other members".  Only moderators have that power.
> 
> However, if we are offended we have the right to say so, and we may hope that others recognise the problem.  I for one don't like being called *guy *or *dude *by anyone.  Certainly not by the waiter some 50 years my younger, taking my wife's and my order in a Stratford pub (_What can I get you guys?_).  Did he realise we would be annoyed?  No, of course not, or he wouldn't have said it.  Did we point out the problem to him?  Yes, of course, it's all part of his training.  Was he more careful from then on?  We may hope so.
> 
> Perhaps there's some simple guidance like:
> 
> Don't put _guys _in writing to people you don't know.
> Don't pronounce it to anyone in long trousers unless they're wearing a baseball cap.
> _Hey guys!  ...............................Hey guys!_ ​​View attachment 61717 View attachment 61718


Ha, well, not even moderators have any business seeking to impose what amounts to their personal dislike of something on members.  What members should _not_ do, in my view, is to post _comments in threads_ implying that posters should not have addressed someone as "Hi, guys" and if I see something like that I will delete it (quite apart from anything else, it's almost certainly going to be off-topic).  I have in the past taken the line that if members want to explain in a conversation message, kindly and politely, that they were offended by it, as might other members be, then that's different.  A link to this thread might be a good move towards explaining why.

Your story of the waiter in the Stratford pub illustrates that this is a tricky area of etiquette generally.  I/We wouldn't have been offended in the slightest in that scenario: I quite regularly get called "mate" or "buddy" by guys young enough to be my grandson and I don't mind at all.  The one which, perversely enough, I *do* mind is being called "Sir" which invariably makes me feel a hundred and ten and if a suitable opportunity arises I generally ask people not to do it (or at the very least, tell them that there's no need to).


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## dojibear

DonnyB said:


> Taking up specifically the point about using "[Hi] guys" in forum posts, there are known to be members who dislike it for various reasons, and that's their prerogative.


I disagree with DonnyB.  I know, I know, how is that possible?  But here is my reasoning:

An OP is not a fluent English-speaker saying what they usually say. Somewhere there is a book teaching that "Hey guys, what's up?" is an appropriate English group salutation, and can be used anywhere -- including when writing to a group of strangers. That is false information, not a personal prerogative or a personal dislike.

An OP probably doesn't do this in their native language. That language probably has various forms of address, each one inappropriate in some situations. It's like saying...well, never mind. I've studied a few languages. Languages have rules. 

It's true that (in this forum) we usually ignore mistakes in OP's post and only address their questions. So most of the time we ignore "Hi guys". But sometimes we make other corrections too.

How do I react personally? The WR dictionary says that "guy" and "guys" are *informal terms*. If I have any problem with thread-starters in this forum, it is a complete stranger addressing me with an *informal term*, as the very first thing that they write. I have the same reaction when a stranger telephones me (a sales call) and starts the conversation with informal talk. To me, that is condescending. It is phony. We aren't friends (BE "mates"). Why say things that you only say to friends?


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## DonnyB

dojibear said:


> I disagree with DonnyB.  I know, I know, how is that possible?  But here is my reasoning:
> 
> An OP is not a fluent English-speaker saying what they usually say. Somewhere there is a book teaching that "Hey guys, what's up?" is an appropriate English group salutation, and can be used anywhere -- including when writing to a group of strangers. That is false information, not a personal prerogative or a personal dislike.
> 
> .....
> 
> How do I react personally? The WR dictionary says that "guy" and "guys" are *informal terms*. If I have any problem with thread-starters in this forum, it is a complete stranger addressing me with an *informal term*, as the very first thing that they write. I have the same reaction when a stranger telephones me (a sales call) and starts the conversation with informal talk. To me, that is condescending. It is phony. We aren't friends (BE "mates"). Why say things that you only say to friends?


I wonder if this doesn't perhaps echo the point I made in post #73 about the ex-manager who thought it was okay to address us all as "you guys".  She wasn't a learner, but she'd obviously picked up from somewhere the notion that it was a suitable way of addressing your staff.  In some workplaces I daresay it would've been, there are places where that sort of informal_ 'we're all in this together as a team of friends'_ approach is the norm, and no-one would've batted an eyelid, but where we were it wasn't.  It just came across as palpably false and that's what made it incongruous.

Maybe no-one else thought it was: I don't think I ever heard anyone else comment on it.  However the fact that none of the other managers went in for that sort of style of address suggests to me that it probably wasn't regarded as the 'done thing'.


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## MattiasNYC

I borderline boggles my mind what some people are offended by. If someone calls me "guy" or "dude" I couldn't care less unless the intent was bad or it was in conjunction with something that actually matters, like; "Dude, you're not white, you're not welcome here!"

Curses and casual language is so insignificant in the large scheme of things that... well... I have zero energy to be upset by simple things like that.

This forum should perhaps have an etiquette section for those who care about such things. I for one don't.


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## Andygc

MattiasNYC said:


> If someone calls me "guy" or "dude" I couldn't care less


My wife objects pretty strongly. She doesn't like being addressed casually by somebody 50 years younger than she is, and doesn't like being called a man.

Sadly, British English in particular has lost the respect for other people that exists in other societies - for example the French use of their words meaning "you". The "guys" form of address goes along with customer advisers expecting to address customers by their forenames rather than as "Mr Bloggs" or "Mrs Bloggs". I address others with respect, I expect others to do the same to me.


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## MattiasNYC

Andygc said:


> My wife objects pretty strongly. She doesn't like being addressed casually by somebody 50 years younger than she is, and doesn't like being called a man.
> 
> Sadly, British English in particular has lost the respect for other people that exists in other societies



< Off-topic comment removed. Cagey, moderator >

Again: You can be linguistically polite, or whatever you want to call it, and still be incredibly disrespectful of what really matters. I'm 100% convinced that generally if someone addresses you or your wife casually it's not a sign of them having less respect for you, it's just how they address people. I really don't see how leaping to them lacking respect based on simple things like this is any less presumptuous than presuming someone who expects old school "manners" is pompous.

This stuff is mostly superficial.



Andygc said:


> - for example the French use of their words meaning "you". The "guys" form of address goes along with customer advisers expecting to address customers by their forenames rather than as "Mr Bloggs" or "Mrs Bloggs". I address others with respect, I expect others to do the same to me.



I expect to earn the respect of others, and once I hopefully do I expect them to convey that respect using any words they want. I care about the intent and meaning of what they are trying to say more than the form, or 'book cover'.

If someone goes "Hey dude, you got the time?" I'll answer and won't be offended. Age certainly doesn't matter.

My female friends sometimes go "Ok guys, we gotta do this!" to the entire group, mostly female. Nobody is offended and upset that it wasn't "gals" or something gender neutral. And yes, we're all not in our 20's. Range is 40-50.

There are horrible things going on on this planet, and not a single one of those things could have been prevented with a "Mister". Today is an anniversary of a day I spent here in NYC. That's my context for a lot of this.

Hopefully my comments on these words were still on-topic.


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## Keith Bradford

< Response to deleted comment removed. Cagey, moderator > 

We have all grown up using and reacting to the language around us within our own lifetime.  When I was a child, "Guy" was to me the straw dummy who was dressed in old clothes and burned on a bonfire on November 5th (see the third photo in #91 and a full explanation in Guy Fawkes Night - Wikipedia).  Are you surprised if I don't like being called "guy"?  Would you be happy if a complete stranger said to you "Hey, scarecrow!...  Hey dummy!...  Hey, bum!"


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## Roxxxannne

MattiasNYC said:


> I expect to earn the respect of others, and once I hopefully do I expect them to convey that respect using any words they want. I care about the intent and meaning of what they are trying to say more than the form, or 'book cover'.
> 
> If someone goes "Hey dude, you got the time?" I'll answer and won't be offended. Age certainly doesn't matter.


Can you in all honesty say that there is no word that someone might call you that would NOT be offensive to you?  If that's true, then I believe you are in a very small minority.


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## MattiasNYC

< Response to deleted comment removed. Cagey, moderator >

The point is that these superficially nicer words were used by the those people I'm talking about, and that it in turn proves that just because someone uses nice words it doesn't mean at all that they aren't horrible people.

It's superficial to assume that people are respectful just because they use nice words. It's equally superficial to think worse of people because they don't. (See PS however)



Keith Bradford said:


> We have all grown up using and reacting to the language around us within our own lifetime.  When I was a child, "Guy" was to me the straw dummy who was dressed in old clothes and burned on a bonfire on November 5th (see the third photo in #91 and a full explanation in Guy Fawkes Night - Wikipedia).  Are you surprised if I don't like being called "guy"?  Would you be happy if a complete stranger said to you "Hey, scarecrow!...  Hey dummy!...  Hey, bum!"



If someone said "Hey scarecrow" to me or "Hey dummy" I'd probably just laugh. Like I said before, if someone told me politely that I couldn't enter an establishment because of my skin color that'd be a problem. If the person said "Hey dummy, come to my establishment instead" then that would _not _be a problem. The latter is superficial, the former is not.

PS: I'm obviously _not _talking about the k-word, the n-word or the f-word. Those words have a meaning that is deliberately negative, whereas "guys" does not.


----------



## MattiasNYC

Roxxxannne said:


> Can you in all honesty say that there is no word that someone might call you that would NOT be offensive to you?  If that's true, then I believe you are in a very small minority.



As I just wrote (after your post) obviously some words carry a specific and negative meaning. If you're Jewish and I call you the 'k-word' then obviously that's a problem, because the word has an obviously strongly negative meaning. "Guys" does not. There's close to zero ambiguity when using the 'k-word' whereas "Hey guys..."

I mean, take the aforementioned _"'How you guys doing?'" _and replace "guys" with the racist slur I mentioned. Not only is that not in the same ballpark, it's not even the same game.


----------



## london calling

Andygc said:


> My wife objects pretty strongly. She doesn't like being addressed casually by somebody 50 years younger than she is, and doesn't like being called a man.


My parents (aged 90+) object strongly too. To their mind it's rude if a server comes up and asks "What can I get you guys?" (cfr Keith's post), even though they realise that it isn't meant to be rude and that very probably that's what they've been taught to say.


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## Loob

Mattias, are you saying that questions about "acceptability" should be excluded from the forum?


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## MattiasNYC

Loob said:


> Mattias, are you saying that questions about "acceptability" should be excluded from the forum?



No.


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## Tegs

I don't have any issue with "hey guys!" on the forum. It doesn't bother me to be addressed like that in informal types of restaurants in the US either (it would be a bit jarring in a fine dining establishment). I'd find it weirdly American if a server addressed me that way here but they generally just say "Good evening, what would you like to order?" with no label of any sort. On the other side of the formality scale, I did find the excessive use of "Ma'am" in the south of the US quite peculiar. But I understand that's normal there. It made me feel like I was being quite rude myself not using Sir/Ma'am in every sentence.

But back to the forum, internet forums are usually informal environments, and most of the time, nobody has any idea what age anybody else is. So it doesn't surprise me that people who may be influenced by American culture, films and TV series address an unknown group of people with "hey guys". I think it's a bit harsh to tell them they're being rude.

But then, I also think it's harsh to say "gonna" is a sign that you're uneducated, and yet plenty of people here are happy to make such statements. But that's another can of worms for another day


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## Roxxxannne

I just want to say that 'guys' is not a universal term of address for old people in restaurants in the US.  I was at a restaurant yesterday and the server addressed my female companion and me (we both have gray hair and look old enough to be his grandmothers) as 'ladies.'  I was only mildly offended at being called something more appropriate for my (deceased) mother. 
Of course I did have reasonably nice clothes on -- not my usual jeans.


----------



## Tegs

Roxxxannne said:


> I was at a restaurant yesterday and the server addressed my female companion and me (we both have gray hair and look old enough to be his grandmothers) as 'ladies.' I was only mildly offended at being called something more appropriate for my (deceased) mother.


Interesting. What would you consider appropriate for your age? I genuinely wouldn't know (before your post I would have assumed ladies to be fine). I'm perfectly happy with "ladies" - that's how I would address a group of friends who are female (30s +). I'd resent being greeted with "hi girls" by anyone who wasn't a friend (girls are 3-18 and what we were often addressed as in school).


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## Roxxxannne

I'm sorry, I thought the smiley face would indicate that I wasn't entirely serious.  I wasn't really irritated.  In the future I will try to remember to put smiley faces before and after my attempts at facetiousness.


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## Andygc

I think the posters who have said "It doesn't offend me" and who seem to want to relate the topic to world events have rather missed the point. There are many native English speakers who find "guys" an objectionable form of address when it comes from strangers. This forum is intended to help people who are learning English. It seems to me to be wholly appropriate to tell learners that this objection exists. That some people don't object is irrelevant.


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## DonnyB

Andygc said:


> I think the posters who have said "It doesn't offend me" and who seem to want to relate the topic to world events have rather missed the point. There are many native English speakers who find "guys" an objectionable form of address when it comes from strangers. This forum is intended to help people who are learning English. It seems to me to be wholly appropriate to tell learners that this objection exists. That some people don't object is irrelevant.


I'm sorry, but it seems to me that it's you who's rather missed the point of this thread.

The starting-point of the thread, was the general acceptability of the word "guys".  Various members have indicated that they do or don't mind it in various situations, so learners and everyone else will be able to see from reading through it that objections obviously exist.  

It's well outside the scope of this thread, and of our forum as a whole, to try and conduct an assessment of how many or what proportion of people do or don't mind it, but  I submit that the fact that some people don't mind or don't care either way_ is_ a relevant consideration.


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## Andygc

Perhaps you failed to read my post.


Andygc said:


> and who seem to want to relate the topic to world events


Like this


MattiasNYC said:


> There are horrible things going on on this planet, and not a single one of those things could have been prevented with a "Mister".


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## DonnyB

Andygc said:


> Perhaps you failed to read my post.
> 
> Like this



No, I did read your post, but the one you appear to have had in mind when you wrote it is only one of over a hundred submitted by various members and I'm afraid I don't see that as in any way invalidating what I said in reply to you.  Sorry.


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## Andygc

As I said


Andygc said:


> Like this


I don't see a need to itemise the posts that appear to want to associate a dislike of "guys" with some sort of deplorable moral attitude. There are several, parts of which have been deleted.


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## MattiasNYC

Andygc said:


> I think the posters who have said "It doesn't offend me" and who seem to want to relate the topic to world events have rather missed the point. There are many native English speakers who find "guys" an objectionable form of address when it comes from strangers. This forum is intended to help people who are learning English. It seems to me to be wholly appropriate to tell learners that this objection exists. That some people don't object is irrelevant.



But is there any word that isn't objectionable to someone? I'm asking this because I understand the above perfectly well, but it almost seems to me that a poll function in the forum would be more appropriate then. Just ask "Is this an offensive or objectionable word in the following context" and follow with a 'yes' 'no' option in the poll. Then just look at the results. That's the answer to any person who wishes to learn the language.

If that doesn't suffice then it implies that for some reason we need to justify why it's offensive. But at that point, why would we not also want to know why some people _don't _find it offensive? Surely it is of equal linguistic and societal value to know both reasons, no?

We're just a slice of society here of course, but I bet that if you actually polled a million people in NYC and a million in London for example the 'yes' option would reach near 100% for all options. In other words for this particular situation - say a waiter addressing people at a table - you're always going to find someone who finds the word inappropriate, objectionable or offensive.

guys/dudes = nope, we're men, not "guys", say the men.
guys/dudes = nope, we're not men, say the women/girls/they.
ladies = nope, that's for my mother, not me.
girls = I'm not a child.
boy = I'm not a child.
brother/sister = I'm not identifying along gender binary lines / I'm not related to you.
sir/mam = I don't take myself that seriously.

And so on. I'm being serious - there's very likely someone somewhere who will be offended by some word that's generally benign.

Yes, we can all note that we're sensitive to one word or another, but if we're going to state our reasons for it then it seems entirely appropriate that those of us who disagree are allowed to do that and state our reasons as well.

PS: I suppose the short version is that the value of stating that one doesn't object and providing a reason why is a) telling people it's not a universally considered offense and b) that in some cases "It's not me, it's you" applies.


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## Packard

TrentinaNE said:


> My skin also crawls when waitstaff at casual-but-not-cheap restaurants ask my husband and me "Are you guys ready to order?" Said waitstaff are usually young enough to be our children. Really, is it so difficult to say "May I take your order now?" or to substitute "you folks" or just "you" for "you guys"?


When I leave the local coffee shop (where I know all the staff and the staff all know me), I always say, "So long guys." That despite the fact at any given time the staff might, in fact, be all female.  

And they all respond by saying, "So long, Packard."  

I think this is fine.


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## Yankee_inCA

-jul1a- said:


> Hi. I am looking for a precise definition of the word "guy." I know it is used for males. But is there a certain age group for which it is normally used? I've heard of it being used for males of all ages, but my impression is it's used more to describe either men or young males that we can call adolescents (in other words, males from the age of 12 or 13 roughly), than for people younger than that, in other words, children. Am I right?


A guy is a bloke.


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## Yankee_inCA

vindack said:


> If you see a bunch of girls, do you say 'How you guys doing?' is that correct? Or should you say '(what are you) "girls" (doing)? '? Thank You


This is a major problem in English. There is no second-person plural (formerly "ye"). This is non-trivial when it’s important to understand who you are including when you say "you." It’s awkward for everyone. In casual speech for all genders it’s “you lot” (Br.Eng) "you guys" (Northern N. America) or "y'all" (Southern N. America). If it’s any help it gets absurd from here. You hear, for example, "Is that you guys's new car?"

If you see a cure on the horizon, let us know!


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## Roxxxannne

vindack said:


> If you see a bunch of girls, do you say 'How you guys doing?' is that correct? Or should you say '(what are you) "girls" (doing)? '? Thank You


I'd say "How're you all doing?" (with two barely distinguishable syllables, rather than the one-syllable 'yall')  if I don't know them well and if they are girls or adult women.


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## yolocoloco

-jul1a- said:


> Hi. I am looking for a precise definition of the word "guy." I know it is used for males. But is there a certain age group for which it is normally used? I've heard of it being used for males of all ages, but my impression is it's used more to describe either men or young males that we can call adolescents (in other words, males from the age of 12 or 13 roughly), than for people younger than that, in other words, children. Am I right?


In the US South, in informal speech, a "guy" can be of any age. When I moved to Wisconsin for grad school in 1961, I was shocked, *shocked*, to hear female students use "you guys" to address a group of females, just as in the South we say "you all," pronounced _y'all_.


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## kalamazoo

I'm from California and try to avoid saying 'you guys' to an all female group of people but will use it for a mixed male-female group.  I will use 'guy' for a man of any age, depending on the circumstances (e.g. I would say "I saw a guy walking down the street wearing a bright yellow suit yesterday" or "some guy driving a Mercedes cut me off in traffic this morning" no matter how old the man in question was.  When I first went to the UK in the early 1960s, the word 'guy' wasn't really used in this sense and I struggled to avoid using it when talking to British people.


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## TravelinTom

The issue of "guys" for a mixed group came up recently on Survivor.  It seems that some group or individual can become offended about anything.  ‘Survivor’ controversy: 89% of fans want ‘Come on in, guys’ to remain Jeff Probst’s catchphrase [POLL RESULTS]


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## AmericanAbroad

-jul1a- said:


> Hi. I am looking for a precise definition of the word "guy." I know it is used for males. But is there a certain age group for which it is normally used? I've heard of it being used for males of all ages, but my impression is it's used more to describe either men or young males that we can call adolescents (in other words, males from the age of 12 or 13 roughly), than for people younger than that, in other words, children. Am I right?


The use of the term guy differs depending on whether it is singular or plural.  The plural form "guys" is used in colloquial American English to refer to any group of people, whether the group be all male, all female, or mixed.  "Hey you guys, who wants pizza" can be said to any mixed group, or to a group of males or a group of females.  (I have, however, seen some "woke" advocates arguing strenuously that calling a group of females "guys" is a hateful example of patriarchy and male supremacy, but that is not yet a majority opinion.)  In the singular form, though, "guy" would only be used to refer to a male, e-g., "He's such a nice guy."  Or, a girl talking to a friend could say, "I met this guy last night, he was really...[adjective]."  You would never refer to a woman as "a nice guy", or as a guy at all.  Back in the days, "guy" for a male used to be interchangeable with "gal" for a female, in the singular.  And, in those days, you would not refer to a group of women as "guys", but rather as "gals".  However, I have the impression that "gal" and "gals" started going out the window already in the 1970s under the criticism of feminists who found the term somehow demeaning.  (They never explained how "gal" could be any more or less demeaning than "guy" but, whatever...).  Finally, no, there is no particular age limits on the use of the word guy.  You can say, "we were out on the links the other day and we got stuck behind this group of old guys who took forever."  You can say, "that old guy is nuts, probably has dementia or something the way he's babbling..."  Etc.  And a bunch of elderly women can be having a bridge game and one of them asks, "hey, you guys, i'm hungry, should we order a pizza?"


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## london calling

That depends entirely on which country you're in, AA, and the age group. Please see the posts above.


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## Wordy McWordface

AmericanAbroad said:


> And a bunch of elderly women can be having a bridge game and one of them asks, "hey, you guys, i'm hungry, should we order a pizza?"



As London Calling points out, that depends entirely on what country you're in. I can assure you that bunches of elderly women certainly do *not *address each other in that manner in this part of the world.


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## london calling

Wordy McWordface said:


> As London Calling points out, that depends entirely on what country you're in. I can assure you that bunches of elderly women certainly do *not *address each other in that manner in this part of the world.


Or elderly men. And they don't want to be addressed as guys either.


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## Tegs

london calling said:


> That depends entirely on which country you're in





Wordy McWordface said:


> that depends entirely on what country you're in.


To be fair, American Abroad did preface their remarks with this below, which makes it absolutely clear what country they are referring to:


AmericanAbroad said:


> used in colloquial American English


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## Roxxxannne

There are definitely many situations, and I'm speaking only about the US, where it is perfectly fine to call a mixed group of men and women or a group of women 'guys.'  Women (some women, not all women) have been calling each other 'guys' in the US for decades.  But, although it's fine to offer anthropological-type testimony about the use of 'guys,' it's not a good idea for English learners to get the idea that it's fine to call a group of women 'guys' in any situation, even in the US.  All sorts of nuanced issues pertaining to age, status, and intimacy exist.


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## london calling

Tegs said:


> To be fair, American Abroad did preface their remarks with this below, which makes it absolutely clear what country they are referring to:


Yes, but the question was a general one, so it didn't just include AE.


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## Tegs

Oh yes, I know, but it's completely logical that a person with more knowledge of American English would confine their remarks to how a word is used in their neck of the woods.


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## london calling

Yes, but given the poster wanted an exact definition they should have mentioned that it is different in BE.


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## Tegs

london calling said:


> they should have mentioned that it is different in BE.


But that's what the BE speakers' contributions in the thread do. There's no need for the Americans to repeat it, is there?


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## london calling

Tegs said:


> But that's what the BE speakers' contributions in the thread do. There's no need for the Americans to repeat it, is there?


They should acknowledge them, given the request for a precise definition.


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## AmericanAbroad

london calling said:


> That depends entirely on which country you're in, AA, and the age group. Please see the posts above.


Well, yes, I would not assume that people in other countries necessarily use "colloquial American English".  But I do usually assume that, before commenting, people READ posts and notice when someone specifically references that particular context for describing the usage of a word.  It is a little redundant to chime in and say, well, we don't speak colloquial American English in London.  Who said they did?


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## DonnyB

london calling said:


> Yes, but given the poster wanted an exact definition they should have mentioned that it is different in BE.


I think part of the trouble here is that there's no such thing as a "precise/exact definition".  Different people clearly have different (and very subjective) reactions to being addressed as "guys", and the extent to which they would or wouldn't use it, and that cuts deeper than just being an AE/BE difference or even an age difference, although both those, from what people have been saying, come into play.


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