# حييّ - حياء



## emanko

السلام عليكم

بحثت عن ترجمة دقيقة لكلمة "حياء" و لم أجد، كل الكلمات الانجليزية لا تفي بالغرض وتعبر فقط عن معنى الخجل والاحراج و ليس الحياء 

shy - timid - bashful 
كلهن معناهن الخجل والاحراج

modest 
تعني محتشم او متواضع

لكن حييّ لها معنى  الكسوف والأدب والوقار وعكسها الوقاحة
وهنا الكسوف يكون باختيار الشخص، فهو يكون حييّا باختياره 
فهو من أخلاقه
لكن الخجل و الاحراج أمر قد لا يكون باختياره، بل وقد يكون عيبا في شخصيته

ما رأيكم، هل تعرفون كلمة تساوي "حياء" بالانجليزية؟

شكرا


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## djara

It all depends on the context. As a general word, I'd suggest 'modesty' as in the following example:  "modesty forbade her to undress in front of so many people"
Modesty, defined as 'behavior, manner, or appearance intended to avoid impropriety or indecency'.


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## elroy

Yes, “modesty” is generally the best translation (“She would not undress in front of others out of modesty” is more idiomatic/natural than anything with “forbade”).

Sometimes we use “shame,” as in “He’ll wear anything in public.  He has no shame.”


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## AndyRoo

It can also be translated as _decency_. It depends on the context.


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## elroy

AndyRoo said:


> It can also be translated as _decency_.


 I don't think it can.  Can you think of a context in which this would work?


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## AndyRoo

For example, the expression:  خادشة للحياء العام could be translated as "offending common decency".


elroy said:


> (“She would not undress in front of others out of modesty” is more idiomatic/natural than anything with “forbade”).


Djara's sentence using "forbade" is perfectly natural.


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## elroy

AndyRoo said:


> Djara's sentence using "forbade" is perfectly natural.


 In an eighteenth-century novel, maybe.


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## AndyRoo

Djara's sentence sounds more natural than your alternative.


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## djara

AndyRoo said:


> Djara's sentence sounds more natural than your alternative.


Actually it's a quotation from an online dictionary.


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## analeeh

AndyRoo said:


> Djara's sentence sounds more natural than your alternative.



You think? I'm inclined to agree with Elroy that it sounds dated.


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## AndyRoo

I would say it is literary, rather than dated. Certainly could be used in writings today, and anyway the two sentences have a slightly difference nuance (_out of modesty_ is more "boastful" than _modesty forbade her_).


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## Mahaodeh

Modesty, decency, shyness, or even shame can work in some contexts. However, in others it doesn't. As an example, I can't think of word to express استحى in this context:

استحى أن يقول لضيفه إنه تأخر عن موعده

I mean, it's not any of the above reasons that prevented him from telling his guest. I know what it is, I just don't know how to express it in English, at least not in a single word.


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## Malki92

Would embarrassed work here?


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> shyness


 I don't think "shyness" works.  Can you give an example of what you were thinking of?


Mahaodeh said:


> استحى أن يقول لضيفه إنه تأخر عن موعده


 I think in that context I would use "courtesy."  "Out of courtesy, he couldn't tell his guest he was late." 





Malki92 said:


> Would embarrassed work here?


 No, not at all.


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## Malki92

Hmm.. I understood استحى to mean he was shy/embarrassed. And I'm a bit confused as to your translation here. Why would you not tell your guests that you'd be late out of courtesy? It seems like the courteous thing to do would be to tell them.


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## elroy

تأخر is past tense, so the person was already late.  And it was the guest, not the host, who was late.  He was supposed to show up at, say, 5:00, and he showed up at 5:30.  Out of courtesy, the host couldn’t bring himself to point out the guest’s tardiness.


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## Malki92

Oh!  That's why I misunderstood it. Thanks for explaining that, makes sense now.


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## Mahaodeh

Malki92 said:


> Hmm.. I understood استحى to mean he was shy/embarrassed.



This may be because in most dialects the word حيا is used for both حياء and خجل.



elroy said:


> so the person was already late.



Lets assume it's رح اتأخر and not تأخرت. Lets also assume that I'm talking about a best friend or relative that is the guest, just so we can exclude shyness or embarrassment (الخجل أو الإحراج). How would you translate it then?



elroy said:


> I think in that context I would use "courtesy."



The difference between حياء and courtesy is that the former is a feeling whereas the latter is an act that implies no feeling - at least this is how I understand the meaning in English. I would translate courtesy as مجاملة. I feel that embarrassment is a closer translation except that embarrassment implies a wrongdoing somehow (e.g. it's rude to do something so you feel embarrassed to do it), but there is no wrongdoing in this case.

I'm not trying to make it hard to translate, I'm just hoping that there is in fact a word in English that I can use to describe the feeling and trying to find out what it is .


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> The difference between حياء and courtesy is that the former is a feeling whereas the latter is an act that implies no feeling


 I see what you mean.  I think we probably have to accept that in this case Arabic focuses on the feeling while English focuses on the reason for the feeling; it's probably a cultural thing.

I think if I really wanted to refer to the feeling in American English I would say "I would have felt bad telling him he was late, so I didn't."


Mahaodeh said:


> Lets assume it's رح اتأخر and not تأخرت. Lets also assume that I'm talking about a best friend or relative that is the guest, just so we can exclude shyness or embarrassment (الخجل أو الإحراج). How would you translate it then?


 Wait, I'm not sure what situation you're describing.  The best friend or relative is coming over and they're going to be late?  شو هو اللي مستحية تقوليلو/تقوليلها اياه؟ ولا الضيف هو اللي مستحي يقوللك إشي؟


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> I think we probably have to accept that in this case Arabic focuses on the feeling while English focuses on the reason for the feeling



Hmm, I never really thought of it this way.​


elroy said:


> شو هو اللي مستحية تقوليلو/تقوليلها اياه؟ ولا الضيف هو اللي مستحي يقوللك إشي؟





لا طبعا أنا اللي بستحي احكيله / احكيلها انه عندي موعد لأنه بكون هيك كأني بحكيله "لو سمحت تقوم تروّح


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> لا طبعا أنا اللي بستحي احكيله / احكيلها انه عندي موعد لأنه بكون هيك كأني بحكيله "لو سمحت تقوم تروّح


 Oohhh...I see!  I misunderstood your original context.

For the benefit of @Malki92 and others: Maha is thinking of a situation in which someone is over.  In the second example, you have somewhere you need to be, and you have to leave soon or you're going to be late. In the first example, you are already late because you couldn't leave on time since your guest was still over.  For the purposes of our discussion, I don't think it really matters whether you're already late or you're going to be late: either way, the guest's continued presence has posed an inconvenience, and you're in the awkward position of having to either say something to them or risk missing or showing up (even) late(r) to your appointment.

Personally, I think if it were a close friend or relative, I don't think I'd generally have any qualms about simply telling them - but I think this has to do with قديش في رسميّات بينك وبين الشخص.  So I think the first scenario, in which the guest is presumably not particularly close to you, is a better example.  I think in that case my earlier suggestion of "I (would have) felt bad" could work in some cases, or maybe "I (would have) felt uncomfortable" or "I (would have) felt awkward" if you want to be more descriptive.  But the biggest challenge with translating this one is that it's wrapped up in culture!  Every Arab knows the feeling Maha is describing and knows exactly why this feeling comes about.  They also know the potential ramifications of going against the grain and saying something.  So while my suggestions may come close to describing the somatic feeling itself, they don't capture all the other information that the Arabic verb conveys.  Which means that we may need to resort to a more drawn-out explanatory translation, à la:

_My guest was still there, and I was going to be late if he didn't leave, but I felt really uncomfortable about saying anything / the thought of saying something made me feel anxious because I didn't want to be rude, so I didn't say anything / so I kept my mouth shut. _

The part in blue is related to a further translation complication, which is the reason I put "would have" in parentheses above.  In Arabic, استحيت أقوللو doesn't just say something about the feeling; it also says that I _didn't_ say anything!  So in English both "I felt" and "I would have felt" are thinkable: "I would have felt" would be about the _anticipated_ feeling if I were to say something, whereas "I felt" would be about _already_ feeling uncomfortable/awkward just at the thought of saying something!


djara said:


> "modesty forbade her to undress in front of so many people"


 In American English, the verb "forbade" is literally never used in conversation, and rarely if ever in writing.  Earlier I couldn't think of a natural substitute, but I've since thought of this: "Her modesty kept her from undressing...".


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## emanko

Thank you all for the great discussion.


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