# Noi con loro



## Monkeii

Ciao,
   i need to translate our company's _mission payoff message_ in English. I got more than a doubt. Here is the line:

I nostri Clienti vogliono competere, vincere e crescere. Noi con loro. Ci chiamano consulenti: liberiamo dai confini.

   The main doubt is about the 'noi con loro' and the 'liberiamo dai confini' parts.

Our Clients want to compete, win and grow. NOI CON LORO. You can call us consultants: LIBERIAMO DAI CONFINI.

   Please consider I'd like not to translate CONFINI with FRONTIERS, 'cause I don't want to free someone from having new frontiers. And I don't want to transalte NOI CON LORO with LIKE US (come noi). That's because I don't want to say that we have already won, but I need to say that we win WITH our Clients...

Thanks to everyone.


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## johngiovanni

"We are/ will be with them (all the way).....Let's / Let us break free from limitations!"


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## pescara

Ciao e benvenuto/a al Forum.

Per "noi con loro," forse: we partner with them.  

Ciao


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## Monkeii

Grazie per l'accoglienza e l'aiuto.  We partner with them is very good. It sounds smooth. But my copy background is made of semiology and linguistics, and I'm very fussy. Noi con loro means that we want to compete, win and grow just like them, and that if they win we win.  To break free from limitations is good, too. But doesen't sound like a slogan...


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## pescara

Monkeii said:


> Grazie per l'accoglienza e l'aiuto. We partner with them is very good. It sounds smooth. But my copy background is made of semiology and linguistics, and I'm very fussy. Noi con loro means that we want to compete, win and grow just like them, and that if they win we win. To break free from limitations is good, too. But doesen't sound like a slogan...


 
How about: When they win, we win.

Ciao.


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## johngiovanni

I you like "partner", then I would say "We are partners", or "We are their partners", but that is perhaps because I'm not personally keen on "partner" as a verb. "Let us break free from limitations!" may not sound very snappy as a slogan, but if you search on the internet you will find others have used it in that way. If you want to be a bit more "poetic", you may want to think about a flight or space-travel metaphor. "Let us slip the surly bonds of earth, for together we will fly/ soar!" The part which sounds not very strong to me is "You can call us consultants" - to which my ironic response would be, "Why? Is that as exciting as being chartered accountants? Can't I call you something else?"


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## pescara

johngiovanni said:


> I you like "partner", then I would say "We are partners", or "We are their partners", but that is perhaps because I'm not personally keen on "partner" as a verb. "Let us break free from limitations!" may not sound very snappy as a slogan, but if you search on the internet you will find others have used it in that way. If you want to be a bit more "poetic", you may want to think about a flight or space-travel metaphor. "Let us slip the surly bonds of earth, for together we will fly/ soar!"


 
Actually, I agree with you.  A lot of companies use "partner" as a verb but I don't like it and shouldn't have proposed it.  

Ciao.


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## rrose17

In my fussiest slogan English... 
_Our customers are all about competing, winning and growth. Us, too. We're called consultants, removing limits/pushing parameters for you_.


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## johngiovanni

rrose's version is more lively, especially the first sentence. I would consider "So are we!" for the second sentence. Again, the "We're called consultants" I don't think is very strong. Perhaps we are called consultants because we are consultants? If so, just say "We are consultants". "We are the consultants who push out the frontiers!"


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## Monkeii

johngiovanni said:


> The part which sounds not very strong to me is &quot;You can call us consultants&quot; - to which my ironic response would be, &quot;Why? Is that as exciting as being chartered accountants? Can't I call you something else?&quot;



 No. it's not that exciting. That's the point. They offer hi-level consulting services (management performance etc), and they are not (anyway, they don't feel and don't want to be intended as) consultants (that means everything and nothing at the same time), but yes, you can call them just consultants, that's ok. But ou got to know they are more than that. They set your business free from limits through technology, organization, systems science, ... In italian they say: THEY call us consultants. Ci ChiamaNO consulenti. We are more than that. I really like this debate. What about: just call us consultants: we'll set you free.  Even more complicated is the standard payoff, but we'll discuss it once I get this description...


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## gandolfo

Modifying rose's slogan a bit: 

"Our customers are all about competing, winning and growth. Us, too. We are more than consultants we remove the limits."


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## Monkeii

gandolfo said:


> Modifying rose's slogan a bit:
> 
> &quot;Our customers are all about competing, winning and growth. Us, too. We are more than consultants we remove the limits.&quot;



 I guess the construction 'ARE ALL ABOUT' brings a negative approach. He's all about having fun, and forgot my birthday... Am I wrong? "Our Clients are all about competing, winning and growth: they don't care about anything else..."


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## johngiovanni

OK, let's try again! "Our customers are all about competing, winning and growth. And so are we. We are called consultants, and that's what we are - but we are consultants who push out the frontiers!"

(I am still not over-keen, though.)


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## Monkeii

Our Clients compete, win and grow. Like us. Call us just consultants (They call us consultants): we are limits removers.  Let's start from this.   How does Limits Removers sound like?


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## gandolfo

Monkeii said:


> Our Clients compete, win and grow. Like us. Call us just consultants (They call us consultants): we are limits removers.  Let's start from this.
> How does Limits Removers sound like?


 for me no  

How about:
we remove limits/limitations

And how about "don't just call us consultants (we are more than that)"


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## Monkeii

gandolfo said:


> for me no
> 
> How about:
> we remove limits/limitations
> 
> And how about &quot;don't just call us consultants (we are more than that)&quot;



 That's time wasting. They WILL call them consultants. Let them do it. But...


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## gandolfo

Monkeii said:


> That's time wasting. They WILL call them consultants. Let them do it. But...



OK if you think that, but in English if you say "don't just call me XXXX" it means that you can call me that but I am also more than that. 

It's your slogan we're just giving you advice on nuances in English


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## Gianfry

I think (hope!) that monkeii didn't mean to be offensive: it's "time wasting" to try and make people call them differently, not to seek advice on the WR forum 
My opinion is that the Italian sentence "Ci chiamano consulenti: liberiamo dai confini" doesn't make much sense, and this affect any translation attempt.
Monkeii, why don't you try and rephrase it in a smoother way, so as to make our task easier? 

EDIT: In order to help our English native friends, I'll try to give my rendering of the Italian sentence we're not happy with: "We're called (just) consultants, _but_ we [are so smart as to] remove the limits"


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## db84124

We're known to be consultants; we're much more than that. We extend boundaries.


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## Gianfry

db84124 said:


> We're known to be consultants; we're much more than that. We extend boundaries.


Hi db!
Yes, you're right. I'm afraid, though, that monkeii wants to keep it as short as possible, therefore the "we're much more than that" bit doesn't fit 
That's not your fault, of course. As I've said in my previous post, I think the Italian sentence itself is not well phrased.


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## Monkeii

Gianfry said:


> I think (hope!) that monkeii didn't mean to be offensive: it's &quot;time wasting&quot; to try and make people call them differently, not to seek advice on the WR forum ;



 That's it. I'm sorry: I thought it was clear...   "We extend boundaries." I really like this. To extend is a positive verb. And boundary is a not so heard word in Italy...


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## Monkeii

Gianfry said:


> Hi db!
> I think the Italian sentence itself is not well phrased.



 I do like the italian sentence. This is not a spot/commercial payoff, is a 'poetic' expression of their mission. And it works in italian.


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## Gianfry

Monkeii said:


> I do like the italian sentence. This is not a spot/commercial payoff, is a 'poetic' expression of their mission. And it works in italian.


Io parlo di "Ci chiamano consulenti: liberiamo dai confini", ovviamente.
Secondo me non funziona, perché non è chiaramente espressa la carica oppositiva che vorrebbe trasmettere, ovvero "Dicono che siamo solo dei consulenti, ma in realtà facciamo molto di più: vi liberiamo dai confini [qualunque cosa s'intenda!]".


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## Cattivo

gandolfo said:


> Modifying rose's slogan a bit:
> 
> "Our customers are all about competing, winning and growth. Us, too. We are more than consultants we remove the limits."


 
I really like "we are more than just consultants" To me it conveys the sense of the two Italian phrases in one. You want everyone to know how above and beyond these consultants (services) are. 

So, how about a compromise of "We are more than just consultants, we push the envelope/boundaries"....or simply;"...we go above and beyond." I don't think that has any negative connotation at all when it comes to a business slogan.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Salute a tutti.

_I nostri Clienti vogliono competere, vincere e crescere. 1 Noi con loro. 2 Ci chiamano consulenti: liberiamo dai confini._

Forse ho capito che:

1. può essere reso con "So do we" o "Us too", che ha anche un'aria più anarchicheggiante

2. può essere reso con "_They_ call us consultants. What we do is free from boundaries

Tanti saluti.

GS


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## gandolfo

Cattivo said:


> I really like "we are more than just consultants" To me it conveys the sense of the two Italian phrases in one. You want everyone to know how above and beyond these consultants (services) are.
> 
> So, how about a compromise of "We are more than just consultants, we push the envelope/boundaries"....or simply;"...we go above and beyond." I don't think that has any negative connotation at all when it comes to a business slogan.



Thanks *cattivo*, that's what I thought 

also thanks to *gianfry *for the clarification!  I agree with what you have been saying  Often what works well in one language doesn't in another...as we all know...

*db*:
"We're known to be consultants; we're much more than that. We extend boundaries." 

I think the "extend boundaries" is spot on


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## Monkeii

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Salute a tutti.
> 
> _I nostri Clienti vogliono competere, vincere e crescere. 1 Noi con loro. 2 Ci chiamano consulenti: liberiamo dai confini._
> 
> Forse ho capito che:
> 
> 1. può essere reso con &quot;So do we&quot; o &quot;Us too&quot;, che ha anche un'aria più anarchicheggiante
> 
> 2. può essere reso con &quot;_They_ call us consultants. What we do is free from boundaries
> 
> Tanti saluti.
> 
> GS



 That's it. Cordialità. E grazie a tutti. Cercherò di ricambiare.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Mi rendo conto solo adesso, rivedendo il mio _post_, che la soluzione:

"... ... ... What we do is free from boundaries"

è ambigua. Naturalmente la mia intenzione era quella di usare "free" come _verbo_: vedo ora che può essere interpretato come _aggettivo_ di "what we do".
Ritiro dunque la mia proposta e chiedo scusa a Monk e a tutti.

GS


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## johngiovanni

That's interesting, Giorgio! I read it a few times and thought you were using it as a verb. It was only when I did a search on the internet that I thought about the "free from boundaries" as an adjectival phrase! If an English speaker can be confused, as I was, then it is not a good slogan.


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## Monkeii

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Mi rendo conto solo adesso, rivedendo il mio _post_, che la soluzione:
> 
> "... ... ... What we do is free from boundaries"
> 
> è ambigua. Naturalmente la mia intenzione era quella di usare "free" come _verbo_: vedo ora che può essere interpretato come _aggettivo_ di "what we do".
> Ritiro dunque la mia proposta e chiedo scusa a Monk e a tutti.
> 
> GS




Guarda che è proprio ciò che mi è piaciuto. Non l'avei usato, ma è molto molto bello proprio perché ambiguo. Ognuno ha la propria idea di COME si comunicano le cose. La dottrina dominante è per la chiarezza, l'esplicazione, il chiudere ai fraintendimenti. Il mio modo di fare comunicazione va in tutt'altra direzione. Non voglio certo confondere, ma lasciare un giusto margine. 
Chiquita è la banana col bollino blu. Punto. E Chicco è dove c'è un bambino.


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## Monkeii

johngiovanni said:


> That's interesting, Giorgio! I read it a few times and thought you were using it as a verb. It was only when I did a search on the internet that I thought about the "free from boundaries" as an adjectival phrase! If an English speaker can be confused, as I was, then it is not a good slogan.



It's a great slogan. I love to use this kind of tricks in italian, and I'm studying hard to be able to intentionally use them in english. 

What i nedd to know is: is there a double key? I mean: can I read that FREE as a verb AND as an adjective? What's the stronger meaning?


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## johngiovanni

That's an interesting approach, Monkeii. Humpty Dumpty would have approved! I suppose there's something in this - because I always notice advertising signs, notice boards, etc. where the English is confusing or the punctuation is terrible, and sometimes wonder if it's been done deliberately to grab my attention! (Usually, though, that is not the case).
Edit: I am not sure what the "stronger" meaning is. I have already said that I personally read it as a verb first, and was wondering what the direct object was. It was a bit like looking at an ambiguous picture. What do you see first, two silhouettes or a white candlestick?
I personally think you need to re-phrase the last sentence. If you were really meaning that you are consultants but also much more than that, say so.


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## Monkeii

Now I could use the 'LIKE US', because we got a stronger game in the end. And the Like Us brings a positive feeling (you will like us)

OUR CLIENTS WANT TO
CHALLENGE, WIN AND GROW.
LIKE US.
THEY CALL US CONSULTANTS:
[WHAT WE DO IS
FREE FROM BOUNDARIES]
[LET'S BREAK FREE FROM BOUNDARIES]

THANK YOU!!!
​


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## Monkeii

Monkeii said:


> Now I could use the 'LIKE US', because we got a stronger game in the end. And the Like Us brings a positive feeling (you will like us)
> 
> OUR CLIENTS WANT TO
> CHALLENGE, WIN AND GROW.
> LIKE US.
> THEY CALL US CONSULTANTS:
> [WHAT WE DO IS
> FREE FROM BOUNDARIES]
> [LET'S BREAK FREE FROM BOUNDARIES]
> 
> THANK YOU!!!
> ​



That double US doesen't satisfy my soul...


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## rrose17

You seem to know what you're looking for but I don't think _They want to challenge_ really means anything. I think you have to challenge something. Another option could be
_Our clients don't shy away from a challenge. They want to win and grow._
_Our clients like a challenge, winning and growth._

To avoid the second "us" you could say "We're (called) consultants"


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## Ezhevika

Monkeii said:


> That double US doesen't satisfy my soul...


That's why in this case is better to say "So do we" (above smb has already proposed it). I think it's very much suitable here...


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## Cattivo

Ezhevika said:


> That's why in this case is better to say "So do we" (above smb has already proposed it). I think it's very much suitable here...



You might also use, "as do we"


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## Monkeii

Ezhevika said:


> That's why in this case is better to say "So do we" (above smb has already proposed it). I think it's very much suitable here...



What about a strong WE WANT IT TOO ?


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## Monkeii

rrose17 said:


> You seem to know what you're looking for but I don't think _They want to challenge_ really means anything. I think you have to challenge something_._
> 
> To avoid the second "us" you could say "We're (called) consultants"




I know challenge needs something. Maybe COMPETE can stand alone?

Our Clients want to compete, win and grow.
We want it too.
They call us consultants: etc...


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Our clients want 
a challenge, winning and growth.
So do we.
_They_ call us consultants:
what we do is
free folks from boundaries​

GS


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## johngiovanni

It seems to me we are all trying very, very hard to give this some impact, but are still not really getting there. With respect, "free folks from boundaries" does not have much "oomph". The last part is still rather abstruse, is not a familiar-sounding English phrase, and lacks impact. If you want to say that you are not_ merely / just _consultants , which is what people call you, but are something more than that, you need to say so, very directly.  Gianfry's post 23 said that.  If you've broken the mo(u)ld, if you are doing something really different, if you are really on a "mission", boldly going where no other consultants have gone before you, so to speak, you need to express the fact that you are pushing out the frontiers.  I don't think I can add anything more to this thread.


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## Ezhevika

Monkeii said:


> What about a strong WE WANT IT TOO ?


 I think it's also possible. But as far as I understood your idea you wanted it to be as short as possible, SO DO WE is shorter then WE WANT IT TOO...


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## Ezhevika

*johngiovanni, *is saying right things. 
And I think that, slogans not always have to be short only if it's not TV ads...


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