# Complex Verb Forms with 'have'



## TheAristocrat

Hi,I'm looking for help in dealing with these verbal expression in English when trying to express them in Hebrew. I understand there isn't going to be a direct translation, but I just need to know how to deal with them.


have been - the books (have been read)
have to have - I (have to have read) three books
have to have been - the cats (have to have been fed) by Dan
have had to - I (have had to clean) the whole house 


want to have - I (want to have read) three books
want to have been - I (want to have been taught) Hebrew not Spanish
wants to have been - the cat (wants to have been) fed Felix


had been - the apple (had been eaten)
had to have been - the apple (had to have been eaten) by Dan


Please note I'm not great at reading without nikkud. Any help greatly appreciated. 


Regards,
Marcus


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## arielipi

The last sentences, anyone speaks that way!? Just use the translation for have, must etc without repetition


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## Drink

I'm going to guess and hopefully someone will correct me:

הספרים נקראו
חייב שקראתי שלושה ספרים
חייב שהחתולים הואכלו
זה קרה שהייתי חייב לנקות את כל הבית

אני רוצה שקראתי שלושה ספרים
אני רוצה שלומדתי עברית ולא ספרדית
החתול רוצה שהואל על ידי פליקס

התפוח נאכל
חייב שהתפוח נאכל על ידי דן

I understand that some of these are probably very rare and that people don't talk like that in Hebrew.



arielipi said:


> The last sentences, anyone speaks that way!?



Yep, all of those examples are fairly common in English.


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## hadronic

Not a native here, but I'm globally ok with your proposal except on a couple places.
- I would use צריך ש instead of חייב ש
- I (have had to clean) the whole house : הייתי צריך לנקות... without the זה קרה .

Globally, that's a topic that's already been tackled here, perfective aspects (to have + past participle) are usually hard to convey in Hebrew, especially in the infinitive. "Most" of the time, you should be able to expedit the thing without looking to convey it at all.


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## TheAristocrat

Yes,, all those sentences are perfectly correct English structures. As a native speaker of English I understand them clearly, but how the heck are they expressed in Hebrew? I dont see how using must or have like that will convey the appropriate meaning, the problem seems to be the layer of modal and auxiliary verbs which don't affect the tense. As I say, I understand them, but I don't understand how to explain them from a technical standpoint. I'll however try to dissect them and post my findings here and take it from there.


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## hadronic

Your sentences are basically :
[Modal verb in any tense] + [infinitive in present or past tense, in active or passive mood]

I  want / wanted / have wanted / had wanted + to read / to have read / to be read / to have been read

In a nutshell, Hebrew has only one past tense, and past infinitive doesn't exist, and passive infinitives are rare or sometimes inexistant.
So you only have the following combinations available :

I want / wanted + to read / to be read


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## arielipi

Hadronic said what I meant.
I want to have said it that way (is that correct?)


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## ismiv

TheAristocrat said:


> Hi,I'm looking for help in dealing with these verbal expression in English when trying to express them in Hebrew. I understand there isn't going to be a direct translation, but I just need to know how to deal with them.
> 
> 
> have been - the books (have been read)
> have to have - I (have to have read) three books
> have to have been - the cats (have to have been fed) by Dan
> have had to - I (have had to clean) the whole house
> 
> 
> want to have - I (want to have read) three books
> want to have been - I (want to have been taught) Hebrew not Spanish
> wants to have been - the cat (wants to have been) fed Felix
> 
> 
> had been - the apple (had been eaten)
> had to have been - the apple (had to have been eaten) by Dan
> 
> 
> Please note I'm not great at reading without nikkud. Any help greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Marcus




do these sentences all refer to the future or the past? for example:  "I want to have read this before class, because this teacher is just turning me crazy" (past) "I want to have read three books until school starts" (future)

another example: "I want to have been taught Hebrew, not Spanish; but unfortunately I came understand the importance of Hebrew only in the last few months" or "I want to have been taught Hebrew, not Spanish. I hope I'll find a good tutor for that".

Thank you. It's very simple to translate either way, but most of this sentences (in English) are new to me.


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## amikama

Drink said:


> I'm going to guess and hopefully someone will correct me:
> 
> הספרים נקראו
> חייב שקראתי שלושה ספרים
> חייב שהחתולים הואכלו
> זה קרה שהייתי חייב לנקות את כל הבית
> 
> אני רוצה שקראתי שלושה ספרים
> אני רוצה שלומדתי עברית ולא ספרדית
> החתול רוצה שהואל על ידי פליקס
> 
> התפוח נאכל
> חייב שהתפוח נאכל על ידי דן
> 
> I understand that some of these are probably very rare and that people don't talk like that in Hebrew.


I'm sorry, but most of your sentences are indeed very rare and unnatural, maybe even grammatically wrong. No native Hebrew speaker would ever speak like that.
As others have already said before, the perfect aspects are hard to translate into Hebrew, and you have to be a bit more "creative" when translating such phrases.

For example - no one would ever say חייב שקראתי שלושה ספרים for "I have to have read three books". חייב שקראתי looks strange to me, because after חייב I would expect an infinitive, not a verb in past tense (even if this verb is inside a clause following חייב, as in this example).
For "I have to have read three books" I'd probably say something like אני חייב *לסיים *לקרוא שלושה ספרים or maybe just אני חייב לקרוא שלושה ספרים (although it would also mean "I have to read three books"). 

The same for "I want to have read three books" and אני רוצה שקראתי שלושה ספרים. The combination of אני רוצה with קראתי is also strange and unnatural. Better say something like אני רוצה לסיים לקרוא שלושה ספרים.

I'm afraid that אני רוצה שלומדתי עברית for "I want to have been taught Hebrew" is even worse. Unlike English, Hebrew doesn't like passive voice very much. If you're trying to translate a phrase in passive voice, try to use the active voice in Hebrew switching the subject and object around - maybe it'll result in more natural Hebrew...
Moreover, I feel that the English sentence actually expresses a will/wish (please correct me if I'm wrong), so I would use הייתי רוצה instead.
So - הייתי רוצה שילמדו אותי עברית, or הייתי רוצה שיסיימו ללמד אותי עברית, or something similar. These are not exact translations because the nuance of "to have been taught" doesn't really exist in Hebrew. 

To sum up - do not try to convoy the perfect aspects from English to Hebrew, because it may result in unnatural or bad translation, since Hebrew doesn't have these nuances. When speaking in Hebrew, try to "forget" the perfect aspects and express yourself using infinitive, past tense etc.


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## hadronic

A couple questions for you, Amikama :
- Does צריך ש... sounds better than חייב ש... ?   Ex:  .צריך שתלך לבית החולים
- After רוצה ש, one usually needs future tense (~subjunctive). Does using past tense absolutely sound ungrammatical ?


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## amikama

hadronic said:


> - Does צריך ש... sounds better than חייב ש... ?   Ex:  .צריך שתלך לבית החולים


Neither sounds "better" - they are near-synonyms and you can use either one. However, I think that חייב is stronger/more emphatic than צריך.
אתה צריך ללכת לבית החולים - you have to go to the hospital (e.g. for physical examination).
אתה חייב ללכת לבית החולים - you have to go to the hospital (e.g. when you're injured seriously).


hadronic said:


> - After רוצה ש, one usually needs future tense (~subjunctive). Does using past tense absolutely sound ungrammatical ?


To me it sounds illogical to use past tense with רוצה. You can't "want" things that already happened... You can only "want" things to happen.


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## ismiv

amikama said:


> Neither sounds "better" - they are near-synonyms and you can use either one. However, I think that חייב is stronger/more emphatic than צריך.
> 
> To me it sounds illogical to use past tense with רוצה. You can't "want" things that already happened... You can only "want" things to happen.



Yeah, that's right. When learning English, the usage of past tenses when talking about the present and the future  (E.G. "We'll have gone until he's back") was, and still is, very hard for me to accept. Obviously this is because Hebrew just doesn't do that.


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## hadronic

My question was precisely on the constuction "צריך ש" and "חייב ש",  not on "subject + צריך + infinitive".
Or said otherwise, do the following 2 phrases :
צריך שתלך לבית החולים
 אתה צריך ללכת לבית החולים
sound correct to you ? And is "חייב ש" as correct as "צריך ש", not including the slight semantic nuance ?


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## origumi

ismiv said:


> When learning English, the usage of past tenses when talking about the present and the future  (E.G. "We'll have gone until he's back") was, and still is, very hard for me to accept.


Once you understand that _will have gone_ is NOT a kind of past tense, things become simpler. The concept of _future perfect_ is easier to grasp than (hypothetical) _future past,_ even though Modern Hebrew doesn't have _perfect_ either (and may have never had it). _Future past_ is conceivable as in מחר הוא אתמול של מחרתיים, yet I don't think English has it.


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## ismiv

hadronic said:


> My question was precisely on the constuction "צריך ש" and "חייב ש",  not on "subject + צריך + infinitive".
> Or said otherwise, do the following 2 phrases :
> צריך שתלך לבית החולים
> אתה צריך ללכת לבית החולים
> sound correct to you ? And is "חייב ש" as correct as "צריך ש", not including the slight semantic nuance ?



If I may interrupt: צריך שתלך לבית החולים should be אני צריך שתלך לבית החולים. The meaning is "I need you to go to the hospital".       

אתה צריך ללכת לבית החולים is good.

You can use חייב in both your examples, and the meaning wouldn't change much. Only that אני חייב שתלך לבית החולים is not very formal speech, I think.

But I wouldn't call the difference between חייב and צריך slight semantic nuance. There are places when using one instead of the other would be wrong, for example: 

a) ?איך מתקשרים לארצות הברית   

b) אתה צריך קודם כל ללחוץ 014, אחר כך את קוד המדינה, ואז את המספר עצמו

Using here חייב instead of צריך would be very strange.


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## ismiv

origumi said:


> Once you understand that _will have gone_ is NOT a kind of past tense, things become simpler. The concept of _future perfect_ is easier to grasp than (hypothetical) _future past,_ even though Modern Hebrew doesn't have _perfect_ either (and may have never had it). _Future past_ is conceivable as in מחר הוא אתמול של מחרתיים, yet I don't think English has it.



I get what you're saying. The reason I called it "past" is that sentences in the present perfect are always translated into זמן עבר in Hebrew.


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## bazq

ismiv said:


> If I may interrupt: צריך שתלך לבית החולים should be אני צריך שתלך לבית החולים. The meaning is "I need you to go to the hospital".
> 
> אתה צריך ללכת לבית החולים is good.



צריך שתלך לבית החולים is perfectly fine, you do not have to add a pronoun.
There's a difference between them, "אני צריך שתלך" = I need you to go, "צריך שתלך" = there exists a need for you to go.

To you question, no, to me "חייב" is ungrammatical in this context. I mean, "חייב שתלך" DOES NOT mean "there exists an *obligation *for you to go". Although, I can't say for sure that I have never heard someone say it (nothing comes to mind, but I'm not certain).


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## ismiv

bazq said:


> צריך שתלך לבית החולים is perfectly fine, you do not have to add a pronoun.
> There's a difference between them, "אני צריך שתלך" = I need you to go, "צריך שתלך" = there exists a need for you to go.
> 
> To you question, no, to me "חייב" is ungrammatical in this context. I mean, "חייב שתלך" DOES NOT mean "there exists an *obligation *for you to go". Although, I can't say for sure that I have never heard someone say it (nothing comes to mind, but I'm not certain).




I don't think you're right. I can't remember ever hearing somebody say צריך שתלך ל without a preceding pronoun. it is archaic speech. here is an example from Google:

*לכן צריך שתלך ותשב אצל הפתח סמוך למזוזה, שהוא סוד השכינה פתח העליון,

*And in modern Hebrew   

*אתה* צריך *ללכת ולשבת* ליד הפתח הסמוך למזוזה

  At most I heard צריכים ש as in "צריכים את העזרה שלך כאן" which is slang, and implicitly says  אנחנו צריכים את העזרה שלך כאן. There is also יש צורך שתלך  which is not very common. 


"אני חייב שתלך" means the same thing as אני צריך שתלך which is "*I *have a need for you to go". It is very common in speech: 

אני חייב שתעזור לי כאן

אני חייב שתגלה לי את התשובות במבחן

But as I said in my first message, this is informal speech. They could be replaced with צריך :

אני צריך שתעזור לי

But I'm not quite sure this is grammatically correct either.

In short: If you want to say *you* need to go, you can say אתה צריך ללכת/אתה חייב ללכת. If you want to say* I *need you to go, you can say אני צריך שתלך.


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## ismiv

bazq said:


> צריך שתלך לבית החולים is perfectly fine, you do not have to add a pronoun.
> There's a difference between them, "אני צריך שתלך" = I need you to go, "צריך שתלך" = there exists a need for you to go.
> 
> To you question, no, to me "חייב" is ungrammatical in this context. I mean, "חייב שתלך" DOES NOT mean "there exists an *obligation *for you to go". Although, I can't say for sure that I have never heard someone say it (nothing comes to mind, but I'm not certain).



Well, now I'm beginning to have second thoughts.

צריך שתלך might be used sometimes, and it means "There exists an obligation for you to go" (I.E. I agree with you  ) However, it'd be unnatural to use it if someone needs to do st.  *for his own personal needs*. 

נשברה לי הרגל

אז צריך שתלך לבית חולים

That's wrong. but:

?המרצה השתגע! איך אנחנו אמורים להספיק כל כך הרבה בשלושה ימים

נכון, צריך שתלך ותדבר איתו. הוא מת עליך

But it doesn't sound very formal to me. In any case, צריך certainly cannot be replaced with חייב here.


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## bazq

ismiv said:


> Well, now I'm beginning to have second thoughts.
> 
> צריך שתלך might be used sometimes, and it means "There exists an obligation for you to go" (I.E. I agree with you  ) However, it'd be unnatural to use it if someone needs to do st.  *for his own personal needs*.
> 
> נשברה לי הרגל
> 
> אז צריך שתלך לבית חולים
> 
> That's wrong. but:
> 
> ?המרצה השתגע! איך אנחנו אמורים להספיק כל כך הרבה בשלושה ימים
> 
> נכון, צריך שתלך ותדבר איתו. הוא מת עליך
> 
> But it doesn't sound very formal to me. In any case, צריך certainly cannot be replaced with חייב here.



It doesn't have to be with "תלך"... think of the construction "צריך ש".
צריך שכל אחד יעשה את המוטל עליו
צריך שאנשים ידעו מה קורה כאן 

א: מה צריך לעשות
ב: צריך שתיקחו את כל הארגזים אל המשאית

The construction is quite common... I am rather surprised you have doubts about it .
Again, this is "impersonal" צריך, you simply state there's a need without saying "who" is in need. "חייב" cannot be used this way simply with the meaning of an obligation.


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## ismiv

It was more the use of צריך ש with גוף שני that seemed strange to me, but I suppose I was wrong.


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## hadronic

How would you translate that quote from Twain : " classics -  something that everybody wants to have read but that nobody wants to read" ?


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## trigel

My suggestion: something like "something that everyone wants to *say that* they [have] read but nobody wants to read?" I believe that captures the Twain quote's basic meaning, if in a less pithy way.


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## hadronic

Ok... how would you say "something everybody wishes they (have) read"?
" I wish I read this book" is הלוואי וקראתי את הספר, but can you say "(the book) that I wish I read"
(הספר) שהלוואי וקראתי (אותו)

That said, הלוואי sounds weird for non first person subjects :
everybody wishes they read this book = הלוואי וכולם קראו את הספר הזה?


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## trigel

Can you just use the verb for "(non-counterfactually) wish", לאחל?

הוא מאחל שקרא את הספר

The past tense would express the same meaning as the perfect would, relative to the time of the main clause. While "he wished that he had read the book" would pattern the same: הוא איחל שקרא את הספר (no change in tense). Which is what Korean (which doesn't have a present perfect distinct from simple past) does.


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## hadronic

To clarify, I used "(have) read" not to indicate a present perfect vs simple past thing, it was just to emphasize a "past" reading of "read" (ie "red") to disambiguate it from a "present" reading (ie "reed"). 

So, maybe we could actually say : ספר - שכולם מאחלים שקראו אבל שאף אחד לא מאחל לקרוא.


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## amikama

trigel said:


> Can you just use the verb for "(non-counterfactually) wish", לאחל?
> 
> הוא מאחל שקרא את הספר


No, לאחל doesn't work with past tenses. לאחל indeed means "to wish", but more in sense of "to bless, to greet" than "to hope, to desire".
אני מאחל לך הצלחה במבחן.‏
אני מאחל שתצליח במבחן.‏

אני מאחל שהצלחת במבחן.‏ 
אני מקווה שהצלחת במבחן.‏ 



> The past tense would express the same meaning as the perfect would, relative to the time of the main clause. While "he wished that he had read the book" would pattern the same: הוא איחל שקרא את הספר (no change in tense).


הוא איחל שקרא את הספר 
הוא קיווה לקרוא את הספר - this is the best translation I can think of. Hebrew can't capture the nuance of "had read" vs. "read (past)". (Infinitive is used here because it's the same person for both verbs.)



hadronic said:


> So, maybe we could actually say : ספר - שכולם מאחלים שקראו אבל שאף אחד לא מאחל לקרוא.


No, it doesn't work... Not only because מאחלים שקראו is wrong, but also because אף אחד לא מאחל לקרוא has different meaning/connotations.
אני לא מאחל לך לקרוא את הספר הזה = I don't wish you [the pain of] reading this book [because it's so horrible/it's crap].
ספר שאף אחד לא מאחל לקרוא = a book nobody wishes [to oneself/anyone else] to read.

I'd translate Mark Twain's quote as:
קלאסיקה - דבר שכולם היו רוצים לומר שקראו אבל אינם רוצים לקרוא אותו.‏


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