# Pronunciation: forehead



## gaer

Here is a question to all "on both sides of the pond".

How do you pronounce "forehead"?

I also have the same question about several other words, but I'd like to get a suggestion from a mod about how to ask about such words.

For instance, would it be best to post words with pronunciations that are debated in both AE and BE in separate threads, or would it be better to start a topic, one, describing "pronunciation differences"?

Gaer


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## Aupick

Hi gaer,

Personally I say FORE-head (or should I say FOUR-hedd -- not quite sure how I sure transcribe it). That's to say my 'fore' is a long vowel sound that rhymes with 'core', my 'head' is a short 'e' sound (not a schwa) to rhyme with 'bed'.

My grandmother, however, says FORRed (short vowel sound, followed by a schwa). She grew up in London and speaks with what I believe was considered 'correct' pronounciation from the beginning of the last century. I grew up in Manchester and just spoke like all my friends. I think you'd be interested in some of my grandmother's other pronunciations, which my wife, who's American, has always found quaint and unusual. I'll have a think.


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## Benjy

i siwtch between both the forms that aupick mentioned.


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> i siwtch between both the forms that aupick mentioned.


Strange. I say: "FAR ed". It's really weird, because although I have an American accent, there are some pronunciations I believe I picked up from my father's side of the family, English.

Gaer


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## foxfirebrand

I pronounce it "4 hed" with the accent on the 4.  But when I come across an African-American sentry I call him a blaggerd.

I just saw a TV "news" spot about the most successful ever coin-operated machine, namely Pac-Man.  Now don't you BE speakers tell me you pronounced it Packm'n.  Say it ain't so!


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## panjandrum

We talked about this just a short while ago, but it probably deserves a more formal airing under the proper title - I mean how on earth is anyone meant to know that a thread called "be horrid" is about the pronunciation of forehead 

Have a look here.

...from #5 onwards.


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## Robot-savant

Sore-dead.  Poor-fred.  More-bed.  Law-wed.  Shore-said.  ... Fore-head.


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## foxfirebrand

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I mean how on earth is anyone meant to know that a thread called "be horrid" is about the pronunciation of forehead


Anyone brought up on nursery rhymes?


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## panjandrum

Robot-savant said:
			
		

> Sore-dead. Poor-fred. More-bed. Law-wed. Shore-said. ... Fore-head.


Isn't it just amazing how six vowel sound combinations with so much in common can actually sound so different.

Please note apologetic post a short while later.
Edited again to correct spelling errors.


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## timpeac

I'm a rhymes with "horrid"er. Or Florida!


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## Amityville

I am almost 100% sure that Prince Charles, the well-known icon of non-cool affectation, says "forrid", and that, combined with the fact that the first time I heard 'forrid' was from the lips of an out-and-out poser, means I cannot get to grips with it, for me it is affected (with the exception of Aupick's grandma). Tim, you sadden me but I will try to come to terms.


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## timpeac

Amityville said:
			
		

> I am almost 100% sure that Prince Charles, the well-known icon of non-cool affectation, says "forrid", and that, combined with the fact that the first time I heard 'forrid' was from the lips of an out-and-out poser, means I cannot get to grips with it, for me it is affected (with the exception of Aupick's grandma). Tim, you sadden me but I will try to come to terms.


 
Bugger off!


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## panjandrum

_Sorry to leave that last post so long - I meant to get back to edit this in._
_That was meant to be a sort of a joke._
_But to be serious, I group those six sound-pairs into four sets_
_Sore-dead, more-bed, shore-said are more or less equivalent and unlike any of the others, each of which has its own sound._
_Poor-fred.  _
_Law-wed. _
_Fore-head._

_PS, sorry about the italics.  I can't seem to shake them off._


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## panjandrum

timpeac said:
			
		

> Bugger off!


Tim: Your eloquence almost needs no further comment. 
Except to make sure that others know in this thread that some weeks ago I associated myself, in the most platonic way, of course, with Aupick's Grandma. He didn't seem to mind, then.

More to the point, and, what's more, on topic, I am quite surprised to find this time that quite a lot of us are either totally in there with horrid/forehead or we are pretty close.

If there are any sailors amongst you, I reckon that forehead also comes pretty close to forward in the sense of, "Shut the forward hatch my good man, there are heavy seas ahead."

PS I found a useful spray in the kitchen - all the italics are lying on the floor with their legs in the air.


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## Robot-savant

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Isn't it just amazing how six vowel sound combinations with so much in common can actually sound so different.
> 
> Please note apologetic post a short while later.
> Edited again to correct spelling errors.


 
Lol.  Grrr.


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## axolotl66

My Dad used to say "forrid", I say "4-head" or "forrid", probably depending on the rest of the sentence and who I am talking to!
aXe


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## VenusEnvy

axolotl66 said:
			
		

> My Dad used to say "forrid", I say "4-head" or "forrid", probably depending on the rest of the sentence and who I am talking to!


Does he also pronounce Monday as Mun-dee? . . . .


One more vote for "four - head".


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## Aupick

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Does he also pronounce Monday as Mun-dee? . . . .


My grandma says Mun-dee! She also pronounces tissue as 'tiss-you' rather than 'tish-you'. Is there a pattern here?


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## panjandrum

Aupick said:
			
		

> My grandma says Mun-dee! She also pronounces tissue as 'tiss-you' rather than 'tish-you'. Is there a pattern here?


Your grandma and I have had arguments about Monday, but would often agree on tiss-you 

I have had a good hunt through the OED after robot-savant's post about:
Sore-dead. Poor-fred. More-bed. Law-wed. Shore-said. ... Fore-head.

Here is the result of my comparison of OED's phonetics for each of the constituent words.

fore, more (AE), poor (one variant), shore, sore; = one variant of fore-in-forehead
law, more (BE)
poor (the other variant).

bed, dead, fred, head, said, wed; = one variant of head-in-forehead.

The other variant of forehead, as quoted before, is exactly like horrid.

The *head* of this variant is like *rid*.​ 
I can’t find any word, apart from horrid, with the same IPA phonetics for the "fore" or "horr" vowel.​


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## foxfirebrand

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I can’t find any word, apart from horrid, with the same IPA phonetics for the "fore" or "horr" vowel.


Not _torrid?_  Or _florid?_ 

Not that we couln't generate a whole dialect-survey thread trying to find consistency here.  If we ever evolve anything remotely like consistence in pronunciation, English spelling will lend itself to standardization, and I suspect it will happen like wildfire.


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## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Not _torrid?_ Or _florid?_


Good suggestions. 
I was looking for single-syllable words with the same vowel sound as horr of horrid, and I confess that I didn't really try very hard 
I've been for another look.
OED agrees with you (it will be delighted) about torrid and florid, and porridge also has the same "orr" vowel.
I have not been able to find a single-syllable word with the same vowel sound.
In IPA, it looks like an upside-down, back-to-front, *a*


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Good suggestions.
> I was looking for single-syllable words with the same vowel sound as horr of horrid, and I confess that I didn't really try very hard
> I've been for another look.
> OED agrees with you (it will be delighted) about torrid and florid, and porridge also has the same "orr" vowel.
> I have not been able to find a single-syllable word with the same vowel sound.
> In IPA, it looks like an upside-down, back-to-front, *a*


 
Be careful of the use of the IPA in dictionaries. There is a whole convention of what symbols are used for certain words (regardless of the fact that pronunciation may have moved on since that convention was started) - the fact that different symbols are used does not always mean that the pronunciation is different.

For me there is no difference between my pronunciation of the "o" in "hot" and "horrid" however they may be traditionally represented in IPA.


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## panjandrum

timpeac said:
			
		

> For me there is no difference between my pronunciation of the "o" in "hot" and "horrid" however they may be traditionally represented in IPA.


Yep - that's the one.
OED has the same IPA thingy for hot and horrid, florid, torrid and one of the foreheads.
Well found, Tim, and thanks.


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## gaer

Amityville said:
			
		

> I am almost 100% sure that Prince Charles, the well-known icon of non-cool affectation, says "forrid", and that, combined with the fact that the first time I heard 'forrid' was from the lips of an out-and-out poser, means I cannot get to grips with it, for me it is affected (with the exception of Aupick's grandma). Tim, you sadden me but I will try to come to terms.


It MAY have something to do with New England in the US. I just don't know.

I say horrid, "forrid" (forehead), but I say "warshing machine"

I've been called many things in my life, including, crude, lude and rude—but so far never affected. 

Gaer


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## timpeac

gaer said:
			
		

> I've been called many things in my life, including, crude, lude and rude—but so far never affected.
> 
> Gaer


 
What poetic detractors you have! I wonder if they booed you at the same time... If they did I expect you would have sued...ok I'll stop now


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## lsp

In some sentences I seem to say something like farhead. Some 4head.


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## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> In some sentences I seem to say something like farhead. Some 4head.


I don't say the "h". That's the important thing. But I don't think it's a matter of being affected, posh or anything like that. I think it's regional on both sides of the pond.

I don't have the knowledge or tools to investigate how words have changed (or are changing), but here is another word that I've mentioned before that seems to be 100% different in BE and AE:

shone

Here, I've always heard it rhyme with lone, bone, phone.

All BE readers I've heard (book recordings) make it sound roughly like this:

shone=sean, but more clipped. Or perhaps "shun".

shun (shone), bun, run, fun.

Or midway between those two. I can say it that way, because I've now heard it so many times.

The sun shone brightly.

So I incorrectly assumed it might be the same with forehead, a sharp divide across the pond, but apparently not. 

Gaer


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## timpeac

gaer said:
			
		

> I don't say the "h". That's the important thing. But I don't think it's a matter of being affected, posh or anything like that. I think it's regional on both sides of the pond.
> 
> I don't have the knowledge or tools to investigate how words have changed (or are changing), but here is another word that I've mentioned before that seems to be 100% different in BE and AE:
> 
> shone
> 
> Here, I've always heard it rhyme with lone, bone, phone.
> 
> All BE readers I've heard (book recordings) make it sound roughly like this:
> 
> shone=sean, but more clipped. Or perhaps "shun".
> 
> shun (shone), bun, run, fun.
> 
> Or midway between those two. I can say it that way, because I've now heard it so many times.
> 
> The sun shone brightly.
> 
> So I incorrectly assumed it might be the same with forehead, a sharp divide across the pond, but apparently not.
> 
> Gaer


 
Yes, it is broadly applicable and useful to split English into BE and AE but there are huge regional differences within each main family.


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## gaer

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes, it is broadly applicable and useful to split English into BE and AE but there are huge regional differences within each main family.


Yes, and sometimes a regional difference in BE just happens to be identical to one in AE, and again, part of that may be because we have parents who come from so many places.

I remember once, while young, writing to my aunts and saying, "Well, it would be nice if you should happen upon a piano while I'm visiting."

That cracked up my aunts, but I wasn't trying to be affected. I grew up with English books and spend most of the first 5 years of my life hearing their speech patterns.

I've long since lost those speech patterns, but I can switch at will, because they are in my ears. My dad, to the day he died, always hung up saying: "Right oh." And we would start off on vacation with him saying, "Here we jolly well go, gov'na." My aunt sung a song that put in my in stiches, "With his 'ed tucked underneath 'is 'arm'." Wish I could remember the rest.

Probably it's time to start a new thread before we get busted, Tim. 

Gaer


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## foxfirebrand

Gaer-- I know what you mean about not being 100% conscious of the way you pronounce some "deeply-rooted" words.  I've also heard that odd pronunciation of "shone" in my own family, among the elderly members-- and long, long ago at that.  I'm sure I pronounce it "shown" like a good American (when I'm not saying "shined," of course)-- but when I mention a _scone_ I sometimes get "a what?" in response.  Or a laugh.

And I'm not being affected either!  It just comes out.  "Eau, don't be givin this guy a biskit or nothin, he wants a _scahwnn!_"  Well, you know how it sounds, just a little broader than _scun._ 

At least I don't say "rassp'brry" like the same great-aunt who says "scone" so funny.  Talk about four consonants in a row!  And I don't remember for sure, but I'd bet good money she also said "forrid."


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## gaer

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Gaer-- I know what you mean about not being 100% conscious of the way you pronounce some "deeply-rooted" words. I've also heard that odd pronunciation of "shone" in my own family, among the elderly members-- and long, long ago at that. I'm sure I pronounce it "shown" like a good American (when I'm not saying "shined," of course)-- but when I mention a _scone_ I sometimes get "a what?" in response. Or a laugh.


Exactly. We pick up various regional pronunciations from different people who are important to us, and the result can be rather odd.

I hold my fork like an American (not upside down), but I use it with my left hand at all times. I only use my knife with my right. With my father on my right side at the table, from England, and my mother born here, I merged the two styles.

So now people assume I'm left-handed. 

Btw, unfortunately renaming the title in an individual post does not help people searching—at least I don't think so—so it might be interesting to start a thread about subtle differences in AE and BE pronunciation that are not often mentioned. I don't know what title we would use though, or where we would put it.

Mods, suggestions?

Gaer

Gaer


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## Cecilio

Good morning! 

I assume that the pronunciation of the word "forehead" is ['forid] (Sorry about the phonetic symbols, I don't know how to use them here). Last year however I read in an ELT textbook that this word was pronounced approx. ['fo:hed]. Is it possible? Is it another case of the influence of spelling on pronunciation, like in "nephew"? How do you pronounce this word?


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## Dimcl

Cecilio said:


> Good morning!
> 
> I assume that the pronunciation of the word "forehead" is ['forid] (Sorry about the phonetic symbols, I don't know how to use them here). Last year however I read in an ELT textbook that this word was pronounced approx. ['fo:hed]. Is it possible? Is it another case of the influence of spelling on pronunciation, like in "nephew"? How do you pronounce this word?


 
It's pronounced exactly as it's spelled: "fore-head".

"Nephew" is "nef-you".


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## foxfirebrand

Using the forum search link at the top of the page, you can check to see if your question has already been the subject of a thread-- like this one.

These old threads can be added to if you have additional questions-- this will bump them to the top of the current index page.  Starting duplicate threads interferes with the efficient use of these forums as a part of the WR dictionaries.
.
.


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## Cecilio

Thank you very much for the information, foxfirebrand. I forgot to check the previous threads, as I usually do. In any case, one of the points I'm interested  in is if there has been some sort of evolution in the pronunciation of this word in the last decades, as a result of 'spelling pronunciation'. In a previous thread, started by me, we came to the conclusion that the word "nephew" was traditionally pronounced with a "v" sound, but nowadays an "f" pronounciation is more common, and this phenomenon is partly due to the influence of spelling.


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## Dimcl

Cecilio said:


> Thank you very much for the information, foxfirebrand. I forgot to check the previous threads, as I usually do. In any case, one of the points I'm interested in is if there has been some sort of evolution in the pronunciation of this word in the last decades, as a result of 'spelling pronunciation'. In a previous thread, started by me, we came to the conclusion that the word "nephew" was traditionally pronounced with a "v" sound, but nowadays an "f" pronounciation is more common, and this phenomenon is partly due to the influence of spelling.


 
Cecilio, I've been around for over 5 decades and have never heard the word "nephew" pronounced with a "v" sound!    Accordingly, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "nowadays" but I'm pretty sure that the "f" pronounciation is more than "common" - it's standard and heads would turn if you pronounced it "neview".


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## chloffers

the word nephew probably comes from the french word neveu.  so i'm sure a long long time ago, it was pronounced with a v sound instead of an f sound.


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## Cecilio

Here :

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=203511&highlight=nephew

you have a link to a previous discussion on the pronunciation of "nephew", with some interesting information.


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## mjscott

FORE head

The only time I've pronounced it FORrid is in the aforementioned rhyme:

There was a little girl
With a little bitty curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good
She was very, very good--
And when she was bad, she was horrid!

I only pronounce forehead as _forrid_ for that poem.

That law-wed thingy left me floored.
Law is pronounced to rhyme with _saw, Ma, _and _Pa--_unless you're saying _lawyer_--in which case the law rhymes with _soy _upon occasion, but not always.

The whole matter is so horrid
It makes my forehead hurt!


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## gaer

mjscott said:


> FORE head
> 
> The only time I've pronounced it FORrid is in the aforementioned rhyme:
> 
> There was a little girl
> With a little bitty curl
> Right in the middle of her forehead.
> When she was good
> She was very, very good--
> And when she was bad, she was horrid!
> 
> I only pronounce forehead as _forrid_ for that poem.
> 
> That law-wed thingy left me floored.
> Law is pronounced to rhyme with _saw, Ma, _and _Pa--_unless you're saying _lawyer_--in which case the law rhymes with _soy _upon occasion, but not always.


I have also noticed since writing last that I don't always pronounce "forehead" the same way, but without someone recording me, I can't say for certain when the chance occurs.

The whole matter is so horrid
It makes my forehead hurt![/quote]


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## equivoque

gaer said:


> Here is a question to all "on *both sides *of the pond".
> 
> How do you pronounce "forehead"?
> 
> I also have the same question about several other words, but I'd like to get a suggestion from a mod about how to ask about such words.
> 
> For instance, would it be best to post words with pronunciations that are debated in both AE and BE in separate threads, or would it be better to start a topic, one, describing "pronunciation differences"?
> 
> Gaer



I say both, my partner (or "other quarter") says 4-head but we don't seem to count as we are well and truly under "the pond". *gurgle* *gulp*


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## lsp

> Law is pronounced to rhyme with saw, Ma, and Pa


I only rhyme Ma and Pa with law and saw when I'm doing a silly imitation of old westerns and/or Granny Clampett. Otherwise Ma and Pa have the same sound as the first syllable of Madre and Padre.


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## mariposita

gaer said:


> It MAY have something to do with New England in the US. I just don't know.
> 
> I say horrid, "forrid" (forehead), but I say "warshing machine"
> 
> I've been called many things in my life, including, crude, lude and rude—but so far never affected.
> 
> Gaer


 
My mother says* warshing machine*. She grew up in an Irish family in St. Louis and many people from her milieu have the same accent. (We also do the *warsh*, not the *laundry*...). Like another poster, she says '*far-head* (and harse for horse; fahrk for fork, etc.). I've also heard this pronunciation in Baltimore and Chicago.


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## gaer

mariposita said:


> My mother says* warshing machine*. She grew up in an Irish family in St. Louis and many people from her milieu have the same accent. (We also do the *warsh*, not the *laundry*...). Like another poster, she says '*far-head* (and harse for horse; fahrk for fork, etc.). I've also heard this pronunciation in Baltimore and Chicago.


I just picked up "warshing machine". But I say "wash", and I don't pronounce any of those other words that way. I think my pronunciation "flips" because of hearing so many words pronounced two ways all my life. 

Gaer


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## Anjie

Interesting question, I say "far-ed".


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## gaer

Anjie said:


> Interesting question, I say "far-ed".


This IS the first pronunciation given by MW, but MW also gives "eether" and "neether" as the first pronunciation of "either" and "neither"—which I personally use—but I think it is out of touch with usage as of this time.

Gaer


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## Anjie

Hi Gaer, I always pronounce them as n-I-ther, and I-ther.


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## gaer

Anjie said:


> Hi Gaer, I always pronounce them as n-I-ther, and I-ther.


Anjie, I can't say much about this because it will be off-topic, but this is a chance that I have noticed in US English! I would be glad to discuss it in a new topic. 

Gaer


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## quietdandelion

Thanks, my friends.
Btw, I notice that there are two different ways to utter "forehead." One is "fore-head," and the other is "fore-eed." Who usually say the latter, and who the former? Thanks.


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## Musical Chairs

It doesn't really matter. "fore-head" is just articulated more.


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## Dimcl

quietdandelion said:


> Thanks, my friends.
> Btw, I notice that there are two different ways to utter "forehead." One is "fore-head," and the other is "fore-eed." Who usually say the latter, and who the former? Thanks.


 
"Forehead" for me and everyone I know.


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## Musical Chairs

Actually...I don't really know what you mean by "fore-eed." If it's "eed" as in "Eden," nobody says that.


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## quietdandelion

Thanks, MC.
If my memory doesn't betray me, I think it's EngE and it's pronounce as "fore-id." Mayby it's I that mixed it up.


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## Musical Chairs

Yes. You're omitting the 'h' in 'forehead.' (look at post 5)


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## quietdandelion

Thanks, dimcl and MC.


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## Arrius

With the spread of literacy people started to pronounce words more as they are written and often abandoned the way they, including the monied classes, had traditionally pronounced them for many generations. "Waistcoat" was once /weskit/ and "often" never had its T pronounced as it /offen/ does today. I still say /fór-id/ as my parents used to say it, but it is so rare now that I give a weak cheer whenever I hear anybody else saying it that way on the wireless (radio). As evidence of the original pronunciation, I adduce the following nursery rhyme:
There was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her *fór-id.* 
When she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was *horrid*. 
(My case rests).
*Brow* is, as others have indicated, literary and poetic these days except in the phrase _the brow of a hill_ which you will find in the Highway Code.
It is in the same register as _breast_ in the singular, meaning chest.


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## jennball

Americans always say fore-head, but I heard that in England it rhymes with "horrid", like in the poem. Apparently it's changing over there, too. By the way, as regards "waistcoat", I saw a rack of waistcoat-style women's shirts that were called "weskits" on the labels. Sometimes it's the spelling that changes to match the pronunciation.


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## river

I'm American and I was taught that _forehead_ rhymes with _horrid_:

There was a little girl, who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her _forehead_;
When she was good, she was very very good,
But when she was bad she was _horrid_.


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## my-own-fantasy

Never in my life have I heard someone say the word "fore eed" or pronounce in like that. And to tell you the truth, if I did hear someone say that, I would burst out laughing. Where do they say it like that?


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## timpeac

river said:


> I'm American and I was taught that _forehead_ rhymes with _horrid_:


Which way do you pronounce it though?


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## timpeac

my-own-fantasy said:


> Never in my life have I heard someone say the word "fore eed" or pronounce in like that. And to tell you the truth, if I did hear someone say that, I would burst out laughing. Where do they say it like that?


I think that that spelling was meant to represent a pronunciation which rhymes with "horrid".


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## my-own-fantasy

> I think that that spelling was meant to represent a pronunciation which rhymes with "horrid".


Oh... I thought that it was like the eed from a word like SEED.


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## Thomas Tompion

I've heard the _forrid_ pronounciation but I think it's now restricted to pernickety elderly people who talk BE.  Some people would put me into these categories but I say _forehead_ like my mother: my father said _forrid _but I only met him when he returned from the war.


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## liliput

Use "forehead".
"forrid" is a very old-fashioned pronunciation, even in the UK. I think I've heard it maybe twice in my life.
As for "for-eed" I wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about.


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## brilliantpink

liliput said:


> Use "forehead".
> "forrid" is a very old-fashioned pronunciation, even in the UK. I think I've heard it maybe twice in my life.



Thanks for that, ThomasT and Lilliput. My friend, who was raised speaking a very British version of Canadian English, continually reprimands me for saying "fore-head" instead of "forrid". Now I can tell him to get with it.

Canadians normally say "fore-head", two syllables, with the 'h' pronounced. But it all depends on where you come from.


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## river

timpeac said:


> Which way do you pronounce it though?


 
Back in college, there was this one English professor who was always harping on the "correct" way to say things -- like _forrid _not _4 head_ or _gehn-ee-AL-uh-gee_ not _geen-ee-ahl-uh-gee_.

So, I faithfully say forrid and _gehn-ee-AL-uh-gee._ Guess that makes me look old and pernickety, huh?  Come to think of it, that professor was old and pernickety.


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## mplsray

Arrius said:


> With the spread of literacy people started to pronounce words more as they are written and often abandoned the way they, including the monied classes, had traditionally pronounced them for many generations. "Waistcoat" was once /weskit/ and "often" never had its T pronounced as it /offen/ does today. I still say /fór-id/ as my parents used to say it, but it is so rare now that I give a weak cheer whenever I hear anybody else saying it that way on the wireless (radio). As evidence of the original pronunciation, I adduce the following nursery rhyme:
> There was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her *fór-id.*
> When she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was *horrid*.
> (My case rests).


 
The pronunciation with the _h_ sounded has been around for quite a while. In his 1828 dictionary, Noah Webster shows _forehead_ as being pronounced "for''hed, or rather for''ed."


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## --Monty---

I'm an English teenager and I (and all my friends) say something inbetween the two:

Forr-ed 

It sounds like if you were going to say "Horrid" but with an e rather than an i.


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## Maligree

Hi!
What's the right way to pronounce the word forehead? The dictionary says it's [forid], but my teacher told me more and more people nowadays pronounce it like [fo:hed] (in other words like fore and head). 
Thanks in advance


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## Esca

I think some dialects of BE pronounce it like "forrid," but I would consider the most universal/accepted pronunciation to be *"fore + head."*
At least I would expect it to be the most widely *understood,* thus my recommendation.

(Incidentally, I know some people in AE who pronounce it like "far + head," but I would NOT condone that pronunciation! : )


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## Franzi

The pronunciation your teacher gave you is a common one in the US and it's the one I use.  I see that this has come up before: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=45055


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## Maligree

Thank you for the link, Franzi!


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## GreenWhiteBlue

"Forehead" is one of those words (such as victuals, palm, boatswain, gunwale, or forecastle) in which all of the letters that are written should not be pronounced.  However, just as some people pronounce the "c" in _victuals,_ or the "l" in _palm_, simply because they see them written on the page, there are many who pronounce the "h" in forehead.

The well known verses by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow show the classic, "h-less" pronunciation, which can be noted by the word chosen as a rhyme:
_There was a little girl who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead,
When she was good, she was very, very good,
And when she was bad she was horrid.
_


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## Franzi

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> "Forehead" is one of those words (such as victuals, palm, boatswain, gunwale, or forecastle) in which all of the letters that are written should not be pronounced. However, just as some people pronounce the "c" in _victuals,_ or the "l" in _palm_, simply because they see them written on the page, there are many who pronounce the "h" in forehead.


 
I think that's a little misleading.  I got my pronunciation of 'forehead' from listening to other native speakers, not from mispronouncing something in a book.  The pronunciation may originally have arisen that way, but by now it has become quite standard in many dialects.  If I heard someone pronouncing 'forehead' to rhyme with 'horrid', I wouldn't understand what they were trying to say.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Franzi said:


> I heard someone pronouncing 'forehead' to rhyme with 'horrid', I wouldn't understand what they were trying to say.


 
This rather suggests that you need to learn this pronunciation of the word, so that you can understand it when you hear it.


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## iskndarbey

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> This rather suggests that you need to learn this pronunciation of the word, so that you can understand it when you hear it.



I'll second Franzi's assertion that it's quite possible to live a long, rich and fully communicative life as a native English speaker without once hearing "forehead" pronounced "forrid".


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## JamesM

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> This rather suggests that you need to learn this pronunciation of the word, so that you can understand it when you hear it.


 
There are four pronunciations listed in Merriam-Webster's alone, _all_ of them accepted and none listed as regional variants or alternates.


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## Franzi

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> This rather suggests that you need to learn this pronunciation of the word, so that you can understand it when you hear it.


 
Well, I suppose I _will_ understand it now, but I repeat that I have never once heard it despite being a native speaker. I remember wondering why that poem didn't rhyme properly when I was little. I asked my mother, but she had no idea either. I would think that this is a regional difference (I'm from California), but I now live in New Jersey, and I have _never once_ heard that pronunciation here either. Furthermore, my grandmother was one of those tyrannical English teachers who insist that everyone use phrases like "this is she", and she pronounced it just as I do (she was from Ohio).

To tell a non-native speaker that 'forrid' is _the_ pronunciation and that others are a sign of ignorance is doing them a grave disservice. We have no idea what dialect of English Maligree is trying to learn, nor what use she intends to put it to.

One final note: Maligree, a lot of native speakers do pronounce it like 'fore' + 'head', but don't forget that the pronunciation of 'fore' depends on your dialect. It looks like your teacher probably speaks a non-rhotic dialect. (Generic American accents are rhotic, many other English language accents are non-rhotic. The difference has to do with how we pronounce some of our 'r's.) I don't know if you know the song "All Star" by Smash Mouth, but there's a fairly famous line in it that uses the word 'forehead'. That's how I'm used to hearing it pronounced.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Franzi said:


> .
> 
> To tell a non-native speaker that 'forrid' is _the_ pronunciation and that others are a sign of ignorance is doing them a grave disservice.


It would be doing an equal disservice to suggest that "forrid" must never be used as the pronunciation because no native speaker would ever, ever understand what word one was saying, wouldn't it?


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## panjandrum

Today's question on this topic has been added to the previous thread on the same topic.
Time for another reminder of the need to search for previous threads before posting a new one.
Forum Rule #1:





> Look for the answer first.
> Check the WordReference dictionaries if available (and scroll down for a list of related threads)
> or use the forum's search function.


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## gaer

iskndarbey said:


> I'll second Franzi's assertion that it's quite possible to live a long, rich and fully communicative life as a native English speaker without once hearing "forehead" pronounced "forrid".


I listen to books for several hours each day. My eyes give me trouble (eye-strain), and I assure you that the various pronunciations of this word are one of the things that stand out if you listen a great deal.


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## ewie

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> This rather suggests that you need to learn this pronunciation of the word, so that you can understand it when you hear it.


Or, alternatively: that the dozen or so people in the English-speaking world who *persist* in pronouncing it _forrid-to-rhyme-with-horrid_ cease doing so in order that _they_ may be understood by the remaining 99.99999999999999999999% [approx.] who pronounce it _fore-head_.


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## mariposita

But what about in dialects where the h isn't aspirated. Do they say fore-head? I think they should be excused from any cease and desist orders...

Does anyone say for-ed?


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## gasman

Cockneys, as one example.


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## gaer

ewie said:


> Or, alternatively: that the dozen or so people in the English-speaking world who *persist* in pronouncing it _forrid-to-rhyme-with-horrid_ cease doing so in order that _they_ may be understood by the remaining 99.99999999999999999999% [approx.] who pronounce it _fore-head_.


Hold on, Ewie.

My mother said "forrid", and so did her mother. I believe my father did also. Some words have gradually shifted pronunciation over the last few decades. For instance, many people now pronounce "dour" to rhyme with "hour", and "almond" is now usually prounounced with the "l". When I was young, I usually heard "AHmund".

I don't give a hoot how any word with different possible pronunciations is pronounced, but immediately assuming that someone who uses a particular pronunciation is a snob, or affected, is unfair. 

Gaer


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## ewie

Oh I wasn't suggesting that folk who say _forrid_ are snobs or affected ~ merely that it is _they_ who are the tiny rocks in a vast ocean of _fore-head (or fore-'ead)_ sayers.


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## ewie

mariposita said:


> But what about in dialects where the h isn't aspirated. Do they say fore-head? I think they should be excused from any cease and desist orders...
> 
> Does anyone say for-ed?


As far as I know, I say something like _fore-red [_or_ faw-red]_ when I'm not being careful, _fore-hed_ when I am.


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## timpeac

ewie said:


> Oh I wasn't suggesting that folk who say _forrid_ are snobs or affected ~ merely that it is _they_ who are the tiny rocks in a vast ocean of _fore-head (or fore-'ead)_ sayers.


I know that I used to pronounce it "forrid" - and wasn't particularly aware of that being strange when I was growing up. (I used to hear that rhyme in the childhood poem and no one found it strange). However, recently I'm sure that I've spontaneously said "fore-head" and surprised myself by doing so - so perhaps this is an example of change that is going on as we speak for people who have that pronounciation. I'm sure I've only remarked upon it, though, because of this thread. I do remember being called "posh" for saying it that way by a friend (who is way posher than me) about 15 years ago or so.

My tiny rocks must be sinking I guess.


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## ewie

timpeac said:


> My tiny rocks must be sinking I guess.


Nicely put, Timp.  (I _think_)


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## gaer

ewie said:


> Oh I wasn't suggesting that folk who say _forrid_ are snobs or affected ~ merely that it is _they_ who are the tiny rocks in a vast ocean of _fore-head (or fore-'ead)_ sayers.


I think you may be right about the dominant pronunciations but wrong about the percentages. 

I also dislike talking about what things sound like without any sound to illustrate, to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

Let me list just three things that continue to make this hard to nail down.

First, "horrid" is pronounced both "HArid" (like CAR id) but also as (WHORE id), in the US. Which is more common here? I honestly don't know.

MW shows this, but it uses at least one non-standard character that won't paste here.

link

Regardless, MW clearly shows that it believe that the majority of people in the US leave out the "h", which I think is probably correct. Cambridge appears to believe that the "h" is also left out in AE.

I'm mentioning this, not because of this thread, but to make the point that there are more variables going on here than most people realize. When a word is pronounced with two different vowel sounds, those are extremes. The vowel can be shaded towards either extreme.

I'm absolutely sure that if you heard me say "forehead", you would only notice I'm American, not British. Unfortunately, since this is not possible, I can't prove it. 

Gaer


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## wildan1

I never knew about the BE pronunciation of this word until I was an adult.

As for the childhood ditty, I recall that at some point in later kidhood, we boys changed the last line so that it did rhyme with our way of saying the "f-word"

_When she was bad she was whore-head_

PS Just found this thread today--hope some of you guys can manage to lighten up on this issue...


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## Cathy Rose

wildan1 said:


> _When she was bad she was whore-head_
> .



Now THAT was LOL worthy!  Thank you, Wildan.  My far-head feels better already.


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## JamesM

gaer said:


> Hold on, Ewie.
> 
> My mother said "forrid", and so did her mother. I believe my father did also. Some words have gradually shifted pronunciation over the last few decades. For instance, many people now pronounce "dour" to rhyme with "hour", and "almond" is now usually prounounced with the "l". When I was young, I usually heard "AHmund".
> 
> I don't give a hoot how any word with different possible pronunciations is pronounced, but immediately assuming that someone who uses a particular pronunciation is a snob, or affected, is unfair.
> 
> Gaer


 

I don't know that the change is as recent as all that, Gaer. I found a book published in 1919 titled The Pronunciation of Standard English in America that mentions the beginning of the change in pronunciation of "forehead' to a "spelling pronunciation." 

http://books.google.com/books?id=LKc6AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=forehead+pronunciation

The entire page is very interesting to read, particularly what was considered "standard" (at least by this author) in the early 1900s, i.e., silent "h" in the names "Humphrey" and "Humphries".


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## gaer

JamesM said:


> I don't know that the change is as recent as all that, Gaer. I found a book published in 1919 titled The Pronunciation of Standard English in America that mentions the beginning of the change in pronunciation of "forehead' to a "spelling pronunciation."
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=LKc6AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=forehead+pronunciation
> 
> The entire page is very interesting to read, particularly what was considered "standard" (at least by this author) in the early 1900s, i.e., silent "h" in the names "Humphrey" and "Humphries".


I did say last few decades, didn't I? In fact, I was thinking of a much longer period of change.

My father was already 12 years old in 1919. He was born in 1907. My grandmother, of course, was born in the late 1800s. It makes me smile, ironically, to think that any word that I pronounce might make sound "posh", since I'm always considered extremely down-to-earth and very informal. Perhaps it does not come across here, in public, in a forum in which so many people put so much importance on correctness, and some of our conservative members are so irritated by icons I prefer, such as  and , for example, that I have lately found myself deliberately expressing myself in a colder manner, thinking that even using these emoticons will somehow cause me to be judged false.

I'm deadly serious.

*At any rate, I know for a fact that the pronunication of at least a few words has changed within my lifetime, or changed more. I believe "forehead" may be just another.*

Gaer


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## thepedantinme

Interesting question, I grew up in west London, when everyone around me, from parents and grandparents to teachers and friends, all said 'forrid' or 'forred'. Now I live on the south coast of England, and I can hardly find anyone who pronounces it that way. This makes me a little sad, as variations in pronunciation, particularly those that stem from long usage, help to make the language interesting. I, of course, carry a torch for the form that is familiar to me.


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## NativeNorthCarolinian

Everyone in my family has always said \'fa-rid\ ("fa" as Julie Andrews pronounced "far" in "Do Re Mi" from _The Sound of Music_ and "rid" as in "to free from something").  

We came to the US in 1619 (Jamestown Island) and moved to North Carolina in 1748 (some of that land I still own).  I was born in 1960 and knew family members who were born as long ago as the 1880s:  they said \'fa-rid\.  Most were educated, and many were educators (as am I).  Some used a variation -- \fard\ (rhymes with "card"), but as Southerners, they managed to slip a schwa sound between the 'a' and the 'r' (_ALMOST_ creating a two-syllable word).

Before parts of North Carolina became a Mecca for non-natives (The Research Triangle -- Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill in particular) in the mid-'70s, no one ever questioned my pronunciation of \'fa-rid\.  Now, only older natives and perhaps those born before the influence of television don't laugh at me.  Most don't even understand me.  I nevertheless maintain the old ways and use this as an opportunity to educate those who say \for-head\.


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## Gwan

I couldn't (to be honest) be bothered scrolling through the pages but I pronounce it 'forrid', and would hear and be familiar with both pronunciations. I assume I got this pronunciation from my English parents, I *think* fore-head is the more common pronunciation here, but it's not one you hear every day so I'm unsure on that.

Edit: straw poll of available parties in the office reveals one vote for 4head and one who uses the two 'interchangeably'. So while I will continue to blame the 'rents for pronouncing 'us' as 'uz' instead of 'ussss' like all the kiwis I know (who intermittently mock that pronunciation), they may not be solely responsible for my pronunciation of 'forrid'.


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## TropicalMontana

Another one for Four-Hed.

I can't even imagine an 'r' sound in "law wed'.


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## natkretep

What a fascinating thread! My accent is not h-less, but I would tend to say *FOR-edd*, but *FOR-hedd* when careful. Maybe in the right context, I might say *FOR-id*.

Someone said they'd never heard _nephew_ with a /v/. I certainly have. I also use the short vowel in _cot_ for _scone_ and _shone_ and the short vowel in _set _for _ate_. Other people at home have long vowels for _scone _and _ate_. All tendencies towards spelling pronunciation?


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## Gwan

I've never heard 'the sun shown' although I have heard the AE scoan(ish) pronunciation. I'm short vowel on both as well. Have heard 'neview' (I don't think in 'real life' but on't telly) but would see that as pretty old-fashioned I think...
One that surprised me yesterday watching the Formula 1 (British) coverage was the commentator who repeatedly said 'yester_day_', stress on 'day'... 
All off-topic of course, but so much of the above is too (I eventually got bored enough to read it all ) that it's presumably permissible!


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## Forero

I pronounce _forehead_ as my parents did: _FORid_ (_o_ as in _fore_, not as in _far_).


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## loggats

Always said 'forrid' (to rhyme with 'torrid'). "Forehead" sounds American, and a little naff (though not because it's American, certainly!)


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## Loob

loggats said:


> "Forehead" sounds American


It doesn't to me.  

To the best of my recollection, I've only ever heard the "forrid" pronunciation from one person - an extremely ancient teacher of English (now I think back, she was probably only in her late 50s).

It's always been the spelling pronunciation "fore-head" for me....


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## gaer

"FA-red" seems to be an old regional pronuncition in the US. Most likely my mother picked it up from my grandmother, who was born in the 1890s, and I picked it up from her or my father, born in England in 1907. It's one of the things I say that my family kids me about, along with "icebox" and "warshing machine". 

I'm a mut. I jokingly say, "Here we jolly well go, guv'na," but I have just a touch of lazy "just sayin'" pronunication from South Florida and my years at FSU, "pickin' up slow talkin' from the South.


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## Pertinax

Longman's Pronunciation Dictionary (2008) contains some interesting statistics. It states that the "h" is dropped by only 12% of AmE speakers, and that "forrid" is preserved by only 35% of BrE speakers.

However, the AmE 12% is an average which falls from from 35% for the oldest speakers to 5% for the youngest speakers, while in BrE "forrid" falls from 47% to 20%.

At that rate "forrid" will be obsolete in a couple of generations. As a "forrid" speaker myself, I mourn its passing.

Recently I was trying to convince an Asian lady that the "b" in "lamb" was silent.  She would not accept that.  She regarded the failure to sound "b" as a lazy pronunciation, and she insisted on sounding it.

I wonder how many more words will revert to centuries-old pronunciations, under the misconception that English words should be pronounced as they are spelt.  I can see some advantages.  It will make life easier for non-native speakers.  It may knock the wind out of spelling-reform.  It might even make it easier to read Shakespeare and Chaucer aloud.  But for more recent rhymes, like girls with little curls, it will be horrid.


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## wandle

I pronounce the final vowel as a schwa (or 'uh' sound) and when feeling more dutiful or pedantic I endeavour to aspirate it: not easy, in an unstressed syllable following 'r'.


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## voltape

By all means, it rhymes with horrid -  I'll never dare to pronounce it fore-head.   And I have had quite a number of quarrels about it!


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## kentix

I have a backhead and a forehead. It's good enough for me.


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## Chasint

I have a 4-head.

Some people I know have a forrid.


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