# Tips for producing [e] and [o] and making [e] distinct from [ej]?



## Squee100

Title says it all. I have been practicing, but I still feel as though I have a hard time making [e] distinct from [ej] and [o] distinct from [ow], and/or am contorting my mouth more than I do when making other sounds. I'm pretty good with [x]/[χ], but I started practicing those when I was much younger and I've heard that our ability to make sounds not in our native language decreases with age.


----------



## Cenzontle

Rather than try to say what to do with your tongue, I suggest you find some role models and imitate them.
If your first language is American English, then probably you are normally pronouncing the diphthongs [ej] and [ow],
and you want to acquire the "pure" vowels [e] and [o] (for some other language?).
Often you can find the pure vowels in Jamaican or Irish English,
or in an American English accent that is heard in northern Wisconsin, Minnesota, or—if Sarah Palin is any indicator—Alaska.
This accent is also heard extensively in the 1996 movie Fargo.


----------



## Nino83

If you're learning Spanish, I'd suggest to use your /ɛ/ and /ɔ(ɹ)/, i.e the vowels you find in words like _b*e*t_ and _f*ou*r_.
It's better to pronounce [θɛɾ'βɛθa] and ['sɔpa] than [θəɾ'βeɪθə] and ['soʊpə].


----------



## berndf

You could start with easy words that end in [o] or [e] like French _beau_ and _année_. At the end of the word it is easier because you don't have transition effects to the next sound. All you have to do is to make sure you end the sound with tongue, lips and jaws in exactly the same position as you started it. Don't move any face or throat muscle until you voice has completely abated. And only if you are happy with your results try more complicated things like _beauté_.


----------



## Nino83

And remember that Spanish /e/ and /o/ are very similar (if not identical) to the American vowels of _bet_ and _four_, because they're not closed vowels (like the French, Italian, Portuguese /e/ and /o/), but they're mid vowels, actually e̞ = ɛ̝ (between e and ɛ) and o̞ = ɔ̝ (between o and ɔ).


----------



## berndf

Nino, the question was not about Spanish and I would be utterly surprised if anybody bothered to learn to pronounce perfect [o] and [e] if his interest was to learn Spanish.


----------



## Dymn

Having taken a look at the user's profile, it seems that he is learning Hebrew. Here is a thread he opened lately.



Nino83 said:


> because they're not closed vowels (like the French, Italian, Portuguese /e/ and /o/), but they're mid vowels, actually e̞ = ɛ̝ (between e and ɛ) and o̞ = ɔ̝ (between o and ɔ).


This is new for me, honestly.

For me, Spanish e and o = Catalan, French, Italian closed e and o. At least I find it hard to locate it halfway between both values. But it's true that I have heard some English native speakers whose vowel in _bet _seems clearly more /e/ than /ɛ/.


----------



## berndf

Dymn said:


> Having taken a look at the user's profile, it seems that he is learning Hebrew. Here is a thread he opened lately.
> 
> 
> This is new for me, honestly.
> 
> For me, Spanish e and o = Catalan, French, Italian closed e and o. At least I find it hard to locate it halfway between both values. But it's true that I have heard some English native speakers whose vowel in _bet _seems clearly more /e/ than /ɛ/.


As a speaker of a language with phonemic contrast between open and closed o/e, I can assure you that the Spanish o/e is not anywhere near to what I could recognise as closed. I even hear it closer to open e/o but that is maybe because in German the a closed o/e have to be pronounced more precisely than open ones.


----------



## Nino83

(_seca/secca_, Forvo.com) Spanish = 520, Portuguese = 320-430, Italian = 400
(_allé_, Forvo.com) French= 280.
(_bet_, Forvo.com) = 500-650 (_day_, only onset, Forvo.com) = 400-500.
(Only male informants).

It seems that even the American _day_ vowel is more open than the French /e/. The Spanish /e/ is in the middle, a bit more on the _day_ side than on the _bet_ side.


berndf said:


> Nino, the question was not about Spanish


Ah, ok. If it is so, everything changes.


----------



## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> For me, Spanish e and o = Catalan, French, Italian closed e and o. At least I find it hard to locate it halfway between both values.



Things change a little depending on the variety or even the speaker, but also on the position. Usually, e's tend to open before an _r _in many languages, and in Spanish too: the e in perro is more open than that in vez. What happens is that, unlike in Catalan or Italian, there is no phonetic contrast between e's, so it really doesn't matter if it sounds more open or not.

(Obviously we're talking about standard varieties. The Spanish spoken in eastern Andalusia does make a difference between open and close e's, and there is contrast -even vowel harmony- because the open ones indicate plurals: ér néné, lò nènè)


----------



## Dymn

Nino83 said:


> (_seca/secca_, Forvo.com) Spanish = 520, Portuguese = 320-430, Italian = 400
> (_allé_, Forvo.com) French= 280.
> (_bet_, Forvo.com) = 500-650 (_day_, only onset, Forvo.com) = 400-500.
> (Only male informants).



Well, I won't deal with figures, mine are just personal perceptions 

If someone is interested, *all that follows is just my perceptions*, having payed attention to Forvo recordings and to my Catalan ears...

*English*
_B*e*t _is /ɛ/ in the USA and Britain, but /e/ in Australia.
_D*a*y_ (the first vowel) is /eɪ/ in the USA and Britain.
_L*a*nd _is very close to /ɛ/ in the USA but closer to /a/ in Britain.
_D*aw*n _is /ɔ/ in the USA but /o/ in Britain. I don't know about vowel length.
_C*oi*n _is somewhere between /ɔɪ/ and /oɪ/.
_R*o*ck _is more open than /ɔ/ in the USA but between /ɔ/ and /o/ in Britain.

*Spanish*
Both vowels tend much more to /e o/ than to /ɛ ɔ/, but in Latin America they are perhaps more open. E.g. cerveza in Forvo. Out of the first four recordings, those from Chile and Argentina seem significantly more open to me than the Spanish ones.

*French*
_Cl*é *_is a plain /e/.
_J*au*ne _is a very closed /o/.
_F*ai*te _and _p*o*rt_ seem closer to /ɛ ɔ/ but I could sometimes take them for /e o/.

*Italian*
_P*e*sce _and _s*o*le _are clearly /e o/.
As for open e and o I am frankly confused. Sometimes I hear it like /ɛ ɔ/ and others /e o/, depending on the person too. Maybe it is due to regional differences? E.g. _pi*e*de _(open), I hear it /ɛ/ by the guys from Emilia-Romagna and Basilicata but /e/ by those from Veneto and Lombardy.


----------



## Nino83

My impression is that French has the closest, highest /e, o/, followed by Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. The Spanish ones sound like mid vowels to me, similarly to the British _bet_ and _four_.


Dymn said:


> Maybe it is due to regional differences? E.g. _pi*e*de _(open), I hear it /ɛ/ by the guys from Emilia-Romagna and Basilicata but /e/ by those from Veneto and Lombardy.


Yes, it is. In peninsular Italy they're [jɛ] and [wɔ] while in continental Italy (and in Naples, for different reasons) they are [je] and [wo].

Here more about the Milanese accent.


----------



## Olaszinhok

Nino83 said:


> My impression is that French has the closest, highest /e, o/, followed by Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. The Spanish ones sound like mid vowels to me, similarly to the British _bet_ and _four_.
> 
> Yes, it is. In peninsular Italy they're [jɛ] and [wɔ] while in continental Italy (and in Naples, for different reasons) they are [je] and [wo].
> 
> Here more about the Milanese accent.



In standard Italian  p*ie*de is pronounced [jɛ]


----------



## Squee100

How about German? I'm using (at least at home home) the pronunciation of Hebrew that's based off German.
Like I said, I have a hard time distinguishing between [e] and [ej] and between [o] and [ow]. I think most German jews pronounce אוֹ and open-syllabic אָ the same and אֵ and open-syllabic אֶ the same, but I don't want to pronounce them the same.


----------



## berndf

In German quality of o and e is linked to length. Long o/e are closed, short o/e are open. Vowels in open syllables are always long so open syllable o/e are always closed. In theory there is also a long open e (distinguishing the minimal pairs like _Bären _and _Beeren_) but that has almost disappeared in modern language. This is the simple rule for stressed syllables, in unstressed syllables long vowels aren't really long but they still count as long and modify the quality accordingly, except for (long or short) e which is reduced to Schwa in unstressed syllables.


----------



## Squee100

berndf said:


> In German quality of o and e is linked to length. Long o/e are closed, short o/e are open. Vowels in open syllables are always long so open syllable o/e are always closed. In theory there is also a long open e (distinguishing the minimal pairs like _Bären _and _Beeren_) but that has almost disappeared in modern language. This is the simple rule for stressed syllables, in unstressed syllables long vowels aren't really long but they still count as long and modify the quality accordingly, except for (long or short) e which is reduced to Schwa in unstressed syllables.


That doesn't exactly answer my question. I would like to pronounce אָ and אֶ the "German" way but keep them distinct from אוֹ and אֵ, which would be diphthongs. As stated though, I have a hard time distinguishing between [e] and [ej] and between [o] and [ow]. What should I do?


----------



## berndf

Squee100 said:


> That doesn't exactly answer my question. I would like to pronounce אָ and אֶ the "German" way but keep them distinct from אוֹ and אֵ, which would be diphthongs. As stated though, I have a hard time distinguishing between [e] and [ej] and between [o] and [ow]. What should I do?


See my answer in #3. I explained that already. The important thing is to learn not to move anything in your mouth until you are none with the vowel. Try words like _entrée_ and resist your natural urge to press the back of your tongue former towards the palate and/or to lift the tip of your tongue while pronouncing the é. Record your pronunciation and listen to it and compare it to a French speaker's pronunciation. If you prefer to practice with a German word use _Reh_ or _geh_. For both you find samples on Forvo. Only when you are happy with your progress with these easy words progress to more complicated ones because you now know how it feels in your mouth pronouncing a proper [e].


----------



## Squee100

berndf said:


> See my answer in #3. I explained that already. The important thing is to learn not to move anything in your mouth until you are none with the vowel. Try words like _entrée_ and resist your natural urge to press the back of your tongue former towards the palate and/or to lift the tip of your tongue while pronouncing the é. Record your pronunciation and listen to it and compare it to a French speaker's pronunciation. If you prefer to practice with a German word use _Reh_ or _geh_. For both you find samples on Forvo. Only when you are happy with your progress with these easy words progress to more complicated ones because you now know how it feels in your mouth pronouncing a proper [e].


Do you have a German example for [o] that I can find on Forvo?


----------



## berndf

French _beau_ or German _roh_.


----------

