# 師父 / 師傅



## Thrym

As far as I know, both words are pronounced Shi-Fu, but their meanings are not similar, aren't they?


----------



## tarlou

I think they are quite similar, and people actually mix them up in most cases.

Here is a study of the differences between 师傅 and 师父, but that might be too advanced if you are just learning Chinese http://ktjx.cersp.cn/jsbl/lists/200712/3979.html .

According to a dictionary, 师父 has two meanings: 1. the same as 师傅 (a. skill/art teacher; b. man with a skill, such as taxi drivers, cooks.) 2. respectful way to address monks.


----------



## stellari

师父 literally means 'teacher-father'. So it's supposed to be someone who teaches you and who you treat as a father. 师傅 could be a teacher or a skilled worker.

I would use 师父 for a teacher, especially a teacher of a skill that requires time to learn, such as kung-fu(1a) or a monk(2), and reserve 师傅 for skilled workers (1b). For example, I would say "这是我的咏春师父" (This is my Wing-chun shi-fu. I usually don't use 师傅 in this context), and “他是一位寿司师傅” (He is a sushi maker, and I never use 师父 in this sense).


----------



## SuperXW

So a rule of thumb: 
When you respect the person as someone who can teach you something, use 师父.
When you respect the person as merely a skilled one, but you have no intention to learn from the guy, use 师傅.


----------



## Youngfun

What's a female 师父？师母？
师傅 is for both men and women, right?


----------



## Lucia_zwl

Youngfun said:


> What's a female 师父？


I think it's also 师父。师母(also heard of 师娘) is the wife of your male 师父.



Youngfun said:


> 师傅 is for both men and women, right?


I think so, but it's usually for men...as most skill workers are men.


----------



## Youngfun

In Beijing there's the weird habit to call the female ticket vendors on buses 师傅... or when people stop me on the streets to ask for information, even though I don't look like a skilled worker.


----------



## Lucia_zwl

Youngfun said:


> In Beijing there's the weird habit to call the female ticket vendors on buses 师傅... or when people stop me on the streets to ask for information, even though I don't look like a skilled worker.


Do Beijingers call the female ticket vendors 师傅？People may call female bus drivers 师傅，but usually not the ticket vendors...er, they might ask the ticket vendors “师傅，这车到XXX吗？” to show their respect, but I would ask “请问这车到XXX吗？”
It's about the same thing when strangers address you "师傅"-- they're just showing their respect, esp for men.


----------



## Youngfun

Lucia_zwl said:


> er, they might ask the ticket vendors “师傅，这车到XXX吗？” to show their respect


----------



## Ghabi

Hi! Did 师傅 and 师父 ever exist as two separate words (with different pronunciations) in real speech? Or are they mere orthographical variants of the same word (like 他~她~它)? How are they pronounced in 轻声-less varieties of Mandarin? (In Cantonese there's only one word in speech: si1fu2.)


----------



## tarlou

Ghabi said:


> Hi! Did 师傅 and 师父 ever exist as two separate words (with different pronunciations) in real speech? Or are they mere orthographical variants of the same word (like 他~她~它)? How are they pronounced in 轻声-less varieties of Mandarin? (In Cantonese there's only one word in speech: si1fu2.)



They are pronounced the same in Mandarin. I typically say shi1fu for both words and may occasionally say shi1fu4 in a formal context. (The 轻声fu is like 四声 but lighter.) Actually 轻声 is not clearly different from 四声 on this word.
(According to dictionaries, the standard sounds of these two words are the same shi1fu(轻声).)

Just curious, is 'si1' (in Cantonese) pronounced like '斯' in Mandarin or like the English letter 'C'?


----------



## SuperXW

tarlou said:


> Just curious, is 'si1' (in Cantonese) pronounced like '斯' in Mandarin or like the English letter 'C'?


Like "C"~


----------



## Youngfun

In my dialect 父 and 傅 are pronounced differently: 父 with /v/ and 傅 with /f/. But we only use 师父 with /v/ sound.
We don't have the word 师傅 for "a. skill/art teacher; b. man with a skill, such as taxi drivers, cooks.)" - we call that 老师, such as 裁缝老师、装修老师、开车老师 or 车师。


----------



## Ghabi

Thanks for the informative replies! @YF: So how do you call your, say, Kungfu master? 师父 or 老师? And then how do you call a teacher? Also 老师?


----------



## xiaolijie

Putting aside how it's come about, I think 师傅 may exist only in Modern Mandarin (and perhaps spread to other dialects, if at all). This word doesn't exist in Sino-Japanese or Sino-Vietnamese.


----------



## Youngfun

Ghabi said:


> Thanks for the informative replies! @YF: So how do you call your, say, Kungfu master? 师父  or 老师? And then how do you call a teacher? Also 老师?


----------



## tarlou

xiaolijie said:


> Putting aside how it's come about, I think 师傅 may exist only in Modern Mandarin (and perhaps spread to other dialects, if at all). This word doesn't exist in Sino-Japanese or Sino-Vietnamese.



It's probably true that 师傅 mostly refers to cooks and drivers only in modern Mandarin. But according to the link in #2, the word 师傅 itself (which means the same as 师父) appeared in 战国时期 and was used quite a lot, whereas 师父 appeared much later (in Tang dynasty).
Perhaps people gradually forgot 师傅 or assigned it new meanings as 傅 became a less common word...


----------



## SimonTsai

There seems to be something wrong with the link in post #2: I clicked on the text, but then was redirected to the home page of the Web site 新思考園丁, where I found nothing relevant.

So I did my research instead:

《大戴禮記》 
昔者，周成王幼，在襁褓之中，召公為太保，周公為太傅，太公為太師。
易曰：「君子慎始：差若毫釐，繆之千里。」取舍之謂也。然則為人主師傅者，不可不日夜明此。

《東觀漢記》
鄧禹 [……] 受命之初，躬率六師。中興治定，勒號泰山。聖上繼體，立師傅，位三公，功德之極，而禹兼之。

《說　　苑》
帝者之臣，其名，臣也，其實，師也； [……] 北面拘指，逡巡而退以求臣，則師傅之材至矣。

It seems to me that '師傅' has much to do with '太師' and '太傅', but I am unsure of which came first, '師傅' or the other two. I would love to know. Any help would be appreciated.
--- / --- / --- / --- / --- / ---
I have another question: Where does the meaning of '師傅' in '糕餅師傅' and '裁縫師傅' derive from?


----------



## Flaminius

Fortunately, the essay to which *tarlou* #2 _supra_ provided a link has been archived.  I repost the link without comments:
徐梓「“师傅”与“师父”」《中国教师》2007(11)


----------



## SimonTsai

Thanks for finding that essay, which is helpful. Here is another link to the essay. Below is a summary:

*[a-1]* The word '師傅' dates from the Warring States Period and can be found in 戰國策 and 穀梁傳:​
王使子誦，子曰：「少棄捐在外，嘗無師傅所教學，不習於誦。」
子既生，不免乎水火，母之罪也；羈貫成童，不就師傅，父之罪也。
*[a-2]* '師傅' was originally used in the sense of pedagogues (without the negative connotation). It does derive from '太師' and '太傅' when it was restricted to those who educate would-be monarchs.​​*[a-3]* '師傅' in the sense of trainers who teach practical skills required in particular trades, such as cookery and carpentry, came to prominence no earlier than the 17th or 18th century.​​*[a-4]* The practice of people other than apprentices addressing experienced workers in such trades as cookery and carpentry as '師傅', as we do today, is presumably an inferior imitation of the practice of workers in factories calling each other '師傅'. Such use can hardly be found before the 20th century.​​*[b-1]* The word '師父' in the senses of our interest dates from the Tang Dynasty and shares the original meaning of '師傅'.​​*[b-2]* The use of '師父' to refer to people specialised in particular trades or skills, such as acrobats, from whom you are eager to learn, can be found in texts in the 10th century. An example of this use is below, from 中朝故事:​​咸通中，有幻術者，[……] 挈一小兒，年十歲已來，有刀截下頭，臥於地上， [……] 叱兒不起，其人乃謝諸看人，云：「某乍到京國，未獲參拜，所有高手在此，致此小術不行，且望縱之，某當拜為師父。」​​*[b-3]* Since the 14th or 15th century, people have been using '師父' as an honorific title for monks and nuns. This use has been popular for long but was considered as substandard by some. Below is an excerpt from 鹿洲初集:​​自昌黎公貶謫，無聊偶與大顚一接，僧徒藉為口實，謬擬三書，甚至肖形廟壁，誣以折腰拜服之狀。士大夫不知忿恚，隨聲附和，以為實然，共尊大顚為祖師；甚者凡遇秃厮，皆呼師父，不思此何人也而師之父之。​


Youngfun said:


> What's [the word for] a female 师父?


Most '師父' are men. For women, we can simply prefix it with '女' and make it '女師父':

女師父作法收妖的過程中，女子不斷低沉嘶吼，翻白眼揮舞手腳抵抗，最後疑似「男靈」現身。 (聯利新聞網)
警消人員冒雨搜尋兩個小時，終於在草屯鎮雙冬山區找到了陳姓出家女師父。 (大成報)
The '父' in '師父' does not have much to do with sex but is more about the role. '師父' is typically a paternal figure, whom is believed to enjoy more authority over his disciples than a maternal figure does, and to be more inclined to prepare his disciples for the future, rather than focusing on the present. Think of '滅絕師太':

周芷若顫聲道：「師父，弟子年輕，入門未久，如何能當此重任？[……]」[……] 滅絕師太對周芷若道：「師尊之命，你也敢違背麼？」當下將本門掌門人的戒律申述一遍，要她記在心中。周芷若見師父言語之中，儼然是囑咐後事的神態，更是驚懼，說道：「弟子做不來，弟子不能 ……」​


----------

