# auspicious and inauspicious numbers and number combinations



## Isidore Demsky

It's my understanding that in Japanese culture (and other Asian cultures) certain numbers and number combinations are sometimes considered auspicious or inauspicious based upon how they sound when compared to other words.

For example, I'm pretty sure the number four is often considered inauspicious because it's pronunciation is similar to the word for death.

I believe seven is considered inauspicious for much the same reason, and I think nine is frowned upon because it sounds similar to the word for pain or suffering.

Is that true?

And would number combinations containing "five" (because it sounds similar to the word for "not," or "no") be considered lucky or unlucky based on the number it's paired with?

For example, would fifty four be considered lucky because it's pronunciation could sound like "no death," and would fifteen be considered unlucky because it could sound like "not true"?


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## karlalou

4 in Japanese is pronounced exactly the same as death.
2 is pronounced exactly the same as burden.
7 as lucky number came from Western culture but is very well spread in Japan too.
What I remember is just about that.. 

And in similar way like word play, there's some celebrative years for one's long-life, but I need to google to tell you about them.


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## wind-sky-wind

"4" (pronuned as "shi," the same as "死" death) and
"9" (pronounced as "ku," the same as "苦" pain or suffering)
are considered unlucky numbers in Japan.
(I've never heard about "2.")

"8" is written as "八" in kanji, which looks broaden toward the end, and implies increasing prosperity as time goes on.
This is called "末広がり" and it's been a lucky number in Japan.
Nowadays, however, especially young people might not be conscious of it.

Rather than that, "7" is getting popular as a lucky number like in Western countries.

And I've never heard about "5" or the combinations you mentioned.


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## Isidore Demsky

Thank you.

Do the native Japanese words for four and five (yuttsu and itsutsu) sound like any other words having positive or negative connotations?


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## frequency

Isidore Demsky said:


> y_o_ttsu


This is the most taboo word in the Japanese society because it relates to the Japanese caste.

Some of people who belong to the lowest level of or out of the caste have still engaged to slaughter. The animals for meat have four legs, so yotsu, yottsu (よつ、よっつ）　implies their job, slaughter. *Do not say this word with the hand sign of four fingers.* Without the hand sign? Then okay.

For details, see this page.


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## Cowrie

frequency said:


> This is the most taboo word in the Japanese society because it relates to the Japanese caste.


 I did not know.


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## Isidore Demsky

frequency said:


> This is the most taboo word in the Japanese society because it relates to the Japanese caste.
> 
> Some of people who belong to the lowest level of or out of the caste have still engaged to slaughter. The animals for meat have four legs, so yotsu, yottsu (よつ、よっつ）　implies their job, slaughter. *Do not say this word with the hand sign of four fingers.* Without the hand sign? Then okay.
> 
> For details, see this page.


Thank you, but I don't understand something.

I  read the article you linked to, and I didn't see anything about the numeral four (unless it was that there were originally our casts?), the word yottsu, or the four fingered hand sign you mentioned.

The article was about "Burakumin."

What's the connection between burakumin and yottsu?


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## frequency

I've forgotten mentioning that the page is about Burakumin only and does not have the entries about numeral four and the hand sign.

As I mentioned, some of them have still been working for slaughter. The animals slaughtered by them are pigs and cows, which are four-leg animals. So numeral four accompanied by the hand sign imply their job.

よっつ often and merely works for expressing numeral four, so it is safer and we can't avoid using this one. For example, you'd have to say 'Ringo wo yottsu kudasai.' in a grocery shop.
But よつ or ヨツ sounds especially very shocking and offensive, leading to insult against them.
I don't say that you have to be _always_ mindful of numeral four, but pay attention a bit that numeral four has such an aspect.

_*Flam, if you think that my posts may cause accusation or complain from 'that organisation', delete them as necessary. You know I've written ヨツ, so I'm afraid a bit!*_


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## SoLaTiDoberman

wind-sky-wind said:


> "4" (pronuned as "shi," the same as "死" death) and
> "9" (pronounced as "ku," the same as "苦" pain or suffering)
> are considered unlucky numbers in Japan.
> (I've never heard about "2.")
> 
> "8" is written as "八" in kanji, which looks broaden toward the end, and implies increasing prosperity as time goes on.
> This is called "末広がり" and it's been a lucky number in Japan.
> Nowadays, however, especially young people might not be conscious of it.
> 
> Rather than that, "7" is getting popular as a lucky number like in Western countries.
> 
> And I've never heard about "5" or the combinations you mentioned.



I completely agree with this reply.

I haven't known about the "yottsu" issue in my life myself, and I don't think foreign people need to remember it at all. Although 4 is not preferable in Japan for the completely different reason that was shown by wind-sky-wind. (4=死（death))


edit) I just remember that "5 yen coin" is regarded as a good fortune coin because it is pronounced as "goen=御縁 (a good chance, a good luck)."


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## Isidore Demsky

I think I understand this now.


> The 1996 report on discriminatory incidents included offensive statements and graffiti at workplace, school, and community, prejudicial remarks on the Internet, discrimination in marriage and employment, and investigation by detective and real estate agencies (Buraku Kaihō 1998).  The remarks and graffiti are intended to incite hostility toward Buraku people, mentioning the derogatory names for Buraku people such as eta (“filth”), hinin (“non-human beings”), yotsu (“four-legged animal”), and hate remarks such as  “Die” and “Stupid.”


http://www.usjp.org/livingtogether_en/ltBuraku_en.html

Does itsutsu have any negative connotations?


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## spu001

I strongly disagree with Frequency's explanation. yes, in several meanings of the word 'yottsu' it has a slur meaning but when people hear the word, in most cases, firstly '4-years-old' is on their mind, secondly, '4 of something' then people ask you "4 of what?" and even if you pronounce yotsu(よつ) people understand you mean 'four,' not the terrible insult. for English speaking people, the word 'よっつ' is somewhat hard to pronounce since it has 'っ,' which denotes that you need to stop your breath in the wink of an eye, instead, they (including a half Japanese and half American like me) tend to pronounce it as Yotsu(よつ.) though it's good to learn as a historical knowledge or as a case study of discrimination to support anti-discrimination campaigns, I hope readers unlearn "The animals slaughtered by them...which are four-leg animals" and other incorrect statements. I read the article of Japanese Wikipedia, that explanation is just a one of unproven beliefs.

I agree with Karlalou and Wind-sky-wind, also, in Japan, hospital front desks are, in many hospitals, numbered but 4 and 9 are omitted since they're not signs for the establishments.
5(go) is not interpreted as 'no,' as for five there're two puns, as SoLaTiDoberman said,  a 5 yen coin is considered a lucky charm, and 5(go) as the English word 'go!' in the original Japanese version of Speed Racer (called Mach go go go in Japan) there's an engine that can time travel when it reaches 555 km/h.
Itsutsu has no negative connotations nor puns.

Spu


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## frequency

I humbly suggest you to succeed in pronouncing yottsu correctly, before people think that you're using the taboo word.


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## spu001

From first-hand experiences in a couple of decades, no one got upset when hearing yotsu pronunciation since something with 4 was on my mind.
I got used to 'っ' several years ago, thank you for your suggestion.
I heard about the slur word from old women born in early Shouwa, I know the word, but I have to deny your explanation that yottsu/yotsu is easily mistaken for the slur word.
When you buy sandwiches in a bakery the baker asks you 'いくつですか?' (how many?)' you answer '４つ (yottsu),' I've seen people like that many times when I was in a queue.
It's like people who say "if you say 'いくつですか?' in a restaurant a waiter/waitress can be like  'I'm 24 and you?'"
From your standpoint, you should be always careful to avoid troubles that could happen once in a blue moon. if you emphasis "it could be" and don't insist on unproven beliefs I think I can agree, period.

Spu


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## frequency

I said that we need not be _always_ mindful of numeral four in my preceding post. Yottsu could be risky depending on the case, especially when you're in the buraku area.


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## spu001

I thought it should be discussed in the subjunctive mood, you don't have to pay attention and to be afraid, we can learn several beliefs but we should say "it could be" when mentioning something like that, so I borrowed your sentence "I don't say that you have to be _always_ mindful..." and wrote from my end "From your standpoint, you should be always careful to..." to emphasize. yes, that depends on where you are, but people don't think 4 (yottsu) mainly means the slur. could mean.


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## frequency

No, I still　やっぱり say it's risky, especially in a buraku area. If you're interested, try google. And you can browse some video of those areas on Youtube.


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## spu001

Then, that's YOUR viewpoint, I don't judge if it is or not. but again, 4 (yottsu) is MAINLY '4-years-old' and '4 of something.'


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## SoLaTiDoberman

IMHO, I agree with spu001.

Suppose it's an international communication between a non-native Japanese speaker and a Japanese speaker.
NOT between native Japanese speakers.
When a non-native Japanese speaker say *yottsu,* who would dare to think that that gaijin-person is talking about some kind of discrimination?
Almost all Japanese except an extraordinary racist would think that it means the number  *4.*

For this reason, I don't think the information would be necessary for non-native speakers.
If that gaijin-person will live in Japan for more than ten years, then they will decide whether it's important or not by themselves.

(I used the word gaijin, not for offending purpose, but for letting members know that the context and background are completely different.

For example, a too much polite sentence is thought to be sarcasm, but if it is said by a small kid or a gaijin-person, we don't think the sentence is sarcasm, right? )

As I'm not a racist, I don't care to use yottsu whoever the Japanese person is.
Because I don't know who is/are from burakumin at all in my life.
I have no discrimination. 
All human beings are created equal!


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## spu001

SoLaTiDoberman, I couldn't agree more.
When you're afraid and pay attention to someone else there's a big wall. we just want to improve mutual understanding of different cultures.


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## Isidore Demsky

frequency said:


> I humbly suggest you to succeed in pronouncing yottsu correctly, before people think that you're using the taboo word.



So よっつ and よつ are pronounced differently?

Do they both mean "four," or do they have different meanings as well as different pronunciations?



spu001 said:


> 5(go) is not interpreted as 'no,' as for five there're two puns, as SoLaTiDoberman said,  a 5 yen coin is considered a lucky charm, and 5(go) as the English word 'go!' in the original Japanese version of Speed Racer



But isn't 5(go) pronounced exactly (or almost exactly) like the negative adverb (the word meaning "no," or "not"), and exactly (or almost exactly) like the Japanese word for mistake?

And isn't the word used to describe the lucky five yen coin pronounced "goen" (rather than "go")?

And do よっつ (yottsu) and よつ (yotsu) both mean "four," or do they have different meanings and etymologies as well as different pronunciations?


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## spu001

> So よっつ and よつ are pronounced differently?


Yes, よつ(Yotsu) is easy to pronounce but, as I wrote in my previous post, よっつ(Yottsu) has 'っ,' which denotes that you need to stop your breath for a split second.
You can check the difference between a word with 'っ' and one without it, look up 過去(kako) and 括弧(kakko.)
https://www.japanesepod101.com/japanese-dictionary/


> Do they both mean "four," or do they have different meanings as well as different pronunciations?


They have different meanings. Though よつ doesn't mean 'four' and do mean "burakumin," people understand it's a mispronunciation when you buy 4 sandwiches.


> But isn't 5(go) pronounced exactly (or almost exactly) like the negative adverb (the word meaning "no," or "not"), and exactly (or almost exactly) like the Japanese word for mistake?


No. Do you mean 誤(go)? It's exactly the same pronunciation as 5 but I've never heard people say 5 for 誤.


> And isn't the word used to describe the lucky five yen coin pronounced "goen" (rather than "go")?


Yes, that's a pun (5 + yen = goen,) 5 doesn't mean the lucky charm on its own.


> And do よっつ (yottsu) and よつ (yotsu) both mean "four," or do they have different meanings and etymologies as well as different pronunciations?


No, though they have different meanings, よつ derives from 'four,' but the reason why it's rooted in 'four' is ambiguous. Again, Frequency's explanation is one of many beliefs.


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## Isidore Demsky

spu001 said:


> No. Do you mean 誤(go)? It's exactly the same pronunciation as 5 but I've never heard people say 5 for 誤.


But 五 (five) and 誤 (false, miss, incorrect) are both pronounced "go"?

So in spoken Japanese, "go" can mean either "five" or "false"?

And isn't there a Japanese word meaning "true" that sounds like the word for "one"?


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## karlalou

Isidore Demsky said:


> But 五 (five) and 誤 (false, miss, incorrect) are both pronounced "go"?
> So in spoken Japanese, "go" can mean either "five" or "false"?



For number 5, yes it's 'go', but to mean false or mistake, it's 誤り(あやまり) or 過ち(あやまち) or 間違い(まちがい) in Japanese. Reading 誤 as 'go' is Chinese way of reading and for us Japanese it needs another kanji to mean something such as 誤字(ごじ) for 'typo'.



> And isn't there a Japanese word meaning "true" that sounds like the word for "one"?


well.. I don't think so.. or maybe I don't remember..


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## Isidore Demsky

karlalou said:


> For number 5, yes it's 'go', but to mean false or mistake, it's 誤り(あやまり) or 過ち(あやまち) or 間違い(まちがい) in Japanese. Reading 誤 as 'go' is Chinese way of reading and for us Japanese it needs another kanji to mean something such as 誤字(ごじ) for 'typo'.
> 
> 
> well.. I don't think so.. or maybe I don't remember..



Thank you.


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## spu001

Thank you Karlalou, you explained what I was asked and I'm on the same page. I, too, don't know a word meaning "true" that sounds like the word for "one."


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## Isidore Demsky

spu001 said:


> ...
> Itsutsu has no negative connotations nor puns.
> 
> Spu



Thank you.

I was just wondering, does it have any positive connotations or puns?


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