# 形而下



## metayw

Hi, all!

I know 'metaphysics' is translated as '形而上'; my question is how to say '形而下' in English？

Thanks!
*
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## avlee

Maybe think about the opposites of metaphysics, you'll have the answer eventually.


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## metayw

avlee said:


> Maybe think about the opposites of metaphysics, you'll have the answer eventually.



This is another way to put my question.
Thanks anyway. ;-)


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## xiaolijie

I found 形而下 in one dictionary listed simply as "physical/ phenominal". 

Hope this is of some help.


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## metayw

xiaolijie said:


> I found 形而下 in one dictionary listed simply as "physical/ phenominal".
> 
> Hope this is of some help.



Dear xiaolijie,

Thanks for your hints. Perhaps I should visit a Chinese dictionary.

I read in 《周易》that ‘形而上者谓之道，形而下者谓之器’. In my mind, '道' means theory due to abstraction from natural phenomena or any matters existing in an explicit form, including existing theories; '器' means something concrete or specific that is ruled by some (natural) rules. Some of these rules may have been shaped in theories in one way or another. Examples of '器' are rocket, computer etc.

I'm aways surprised at the brightness of the ancients, who could write a book coming through the space and time. More surprisingly, such brightness is aways ignored by common persons, ancient or modern.

metayw


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## univerio

meta- as a prefix means "after," or "beyond." So if 形而上 means metaphysics,the surely 形而下 must mean physics?


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## metayw

univerio said:


> meta- as a prefix means "after," or "beyond." So if 形而上 means metaphysics,the surely 形而下 must mean physics?



Thanks, but this is not my concern...


-metayw


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## Outsider

If you are looking for a word that means the opposite of metaphysics, here are a few suggestions: empiricism, experience, experimentation, science, natural philosophy (an old fashioned term for 'science').


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## avlee

xiaolijie said:


> I found 形而下 in one dictionary listed simply as "physical/ phenominal".
> 
> Hope this is of some help.


Or "actual". 
According to the latest quotes from Chinese classic essays and the explantion contributed by the poster, I guess your version might be the closest interpretation.


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## avlee

Outsider said:


> If you are looking for a word that means the opposite of metaphysics, here are a few suggestions: empiricism, experience, experimentation, science, natural philosophy (an old fashioned term for 'science').


Outsider's contribution just reminds me of something else.
In my memory, 
教条主义 (doctrinairism) is derived from 形而上 (philosophy -> metaphysics) and 经验主义 (empiricism) is derived from 形而下 (actuality/reality -> experience addicted?) . 
Both 形而上 and 形而下 have been slightly changed or upgraded (from IT perspective) over years in terms of their meanings.
So if 形而上 means over theoretical (metaphysics) , can we just simple say 形而下 may be over realistic (superrealism or empiricism as a just passable alternative) ? 
Hereby, we have some desirable options for elaborating 形而下 like superrealism, empiricism, etc. Any word, as long as it jibes with the above analytic process, will do.
Hope the above helped a little bit.


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## Outsider

avlee said:


> So if 形而上 means over theoretical (metaphysics) , can we just simple say 形而下 may be over realistic (superrealism or empiricism as a just passable alternative) ?


In that sense, a better word might be "materialism".


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## metayw

Outsider said:


> If you are looking for a word that means the opposite of metaphysics, here are a few suggestions: empiricism, experience, experimentation, science, natural philosophy (an old fashioned term for 'science').



Dear Outsider,

I feel the word 'experimentation' is close to my need.
Thanks a lot!

Thanks all for your interesting inspiration, warm help and constant concern.

Interested viewers may feel free to go on the topic.


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## metayw

avlee said:


> ...
> So if 形而上 means over theoretical (metaphysics) , can we just simple say 形而下 may be over realistic (superrealism or empiricism as a just passable alternative) ?
> Hereby, we have some desirable options for elaborating 形而下 like superrealism, empiricism, etc. Any word, as long as it jibes with the above analytic process, will do.
> Hope the above helped a little bit.



Dear avlee,

Thanks for your warm concern and suggestions.

I feel 'over realistic' or 'superrealism' is a synonym of 'metaphysics', while 'empiricism' is close to 'experimentalism'.

A scholar of metaphysics type tends to produce theories (or ideal models) to explain (or represent) the observed phenomena, while a scholar of experimentalist type tend to produce devices due to theories or experiments. The former mainly concern the question of 'what is the world', while the later mainly concern the question of 'how to affect the world'. 
Both may be inspired by each other's products.


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## Flaminius

Hello *metayw*,

  I am still not sure what exactly you mean by 形而下.  Surely it is the antonym for 形而上 but you have presented two understandings thereof.  



metayw said:


> I read in 《周易》that ‘形而上者谓之道，形而下者谓之器’. In my mind, '道' means theory due to abstraction from natural phenomena or any matters existing in an explicit form, including existing theories; '器' means something concrete or specific that is ruled by some (natural) rules. Some of these rules may have been shaped in theories in one way or another. Examples of '器' are rocket, computer etc.





metayw said:


> univerio said:
> 
> 
> 
> meta- as a prefix means "after," or "beyond." So if 形而上 means metaphysics,the surely 形而下 must mean physics?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, but this is not my concern...
Click to expand...


AND



metayw said:


> avlee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe think about the opposites of metaphysics, you'll have the answer eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is another way to put my question.
> Thanks anyway. ;-)
Click to expand...

形而上 as written in 《周易》 is _not_ automatically metaphysics as we know it today in the European tradition of philosophy.  I cannot define what exactly the former term means but it is a concept in Chinese philosophy.  形而上 took on the latter sense when a 19th century Japanese philosopher adopted it as a translation for "metaphysics" in the European literature.  I don't deny that two traditions have some similarities but the two usages of 形而上 have no relations with each other.

The remaining steps to answer your query largely concern with English usage of "metaphysics" -- so we can determine the antonym or the general name is for what is not metaphysics.  Or are we discussing Chinese philosophy here?


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## metayw

Hello, *Flaminius*!

Thanks for your warm concern. Below is my reply to your response.

   I am still not sure what exactly you mean by 形而下.  Surely it is the antonym for 形而上 but you have presented two understandings thereof. 

*avlee* provided in #2 a warm suggestion or direction to my _question_, while my emphasis is on the _answer_.

*univerio *stated in #6 a truth and raised an interesting _question_.

In #5, I supplied a source that contains the words '形而上' and '形而下'. 

形而上 as written in 《周易》 is _not_ automatically metaphysics as we know it today in the European tradition of philosophy.  I cannot define what exactly the former term means but it is a concept in Chinese philosophy.  形而上 took on the latter sense when a 19th century Japanese philosopher adopted it as a translation for "metaphysics" in the European literature.
I don't deny that two traditions have some similarities but the two usages of 形而上 have no relations with each other.

Thanks indeed for sharing your scholarship with viewers of this topic. I guess links or related references will be interesting for professionals. ;-)

The remaining steps to answer your query largely concern with English usage of "metaphysics" -- so we can determine the antonym or the general name is for what is not metaphysics.  Or are we discussing Chinese philosophy here?

We are not discussing Chinese philosophy here. My original question is indeed how to say '形而下' in English. But, the background of my question is that I'm trying to seek/lay a philosophy base to my (scientific) research. 

More precisely, most of scholars I have to face here are doing theoretical work. I'm somewhat isolated, since I'm doing things in an opposite direction. In my mind, '形而上学' is one of the philosophies of theoritical research. So, I try to seek English refereces on the opposite of 'metaphysics'. To do so, I first need to know the word to be put in the search engine. So, I asked my original question. 

*Outsider *_explicitly _provided some answers in #8; cf. comments in #12. I feel the word 'experimentalism'  appears O.K. to me.

Finally, at the moment in my mind, '形而上' is the approach to '道' or theories, while ‘形而下’ is the approach to '器' or things being specific or concrete.

metayw


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## Yasin

metayw said:


> 'metaphysics' is translated as '形而上'; my question is how to say '*形而下'*


 
Actually, metaphysics is translated as “形而上学”in chinese .There is no definition such as “行而下”or "行而下学" in chinese .


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## Flaminius

But there is a sizeable number of hits of 形而下 in simplified Chinese Web sites.  They are talking about philosophy, politics, art, databases, Java and so on.


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## Outsider

Another dichotomy that may make sense, depending on the context, is "theory/theoretical" versus "practice/practical/application/applied".


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## jedediah

I am doing theoretic works in economics and we recently had a scholar from our philosophy department giving a talk in politics (with an economic approach). I am talking about this is because somehow I have the feeling that in philosophers' mind what classifies as theoretical work in economics actually falls into "empirical" work in philosophy. For me, empirical studies in economics have to work with data while theorists just work with Greek letters. I guess that's not enough for philosophers.
What I have in my mind goes as following, philosophy--theories in each science--applied theoretical works--empirical studies--engineering. (the level of abstraction goes down and the level of concreteness goes up)

EDIT: If you just want to get familiar with the English terms used in your field of research, Wikipedia comes quite handy.


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## metayw

Yasin said:


> Actually, metaphysics is translated as “形而上学”in chinese .There is no definition such as “行而下”or "行而下学" in chinese .



Thank for correction of the translation.
Well, we are talking about '形而下', not '行而下'.


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## metayw

jedediah said:


> I am doing theoretic works in economics and we recently had a scholar from our philosophy department giving a talk in politics (with an economic approach). I am talking about this is because somehow I have the feeling that in philosophers' mind what classifies as theoretical work in economics actually falls into "empirical" work in philosophy. For me, empirical studies in economics have to work with data while theorists just work with Greek letters. I guess that's not enough for philosophers.
> What I have in my mind goes as following, philosophy--theories in each science--applied theoretical works--empirical studies--engineering. (the level of abstraction goes down and the level of concreteness goes up)
> 
> EDIT: If you just want to get familiar with the English terms used in your field of research, Wikipedia comes quite handy.




Thanks a lot for your kind contribution. I knew Wikipedia, but it's kind to 
remind!


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