# Protégé



## ayed

Hello, folks of Arabic Forum.
I have translated a piece of article talks of colonialism. I am not familiar with political terms.Moreove, I am Badawi and don't know of those issues.The colonizing country sustains and protects its *proteges* in that colony.
My attempt is this:
*أوصياء*  ?

Your suggestions are very welcome.

Ayed


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## Mahaodeh

Yes, أوصياء seems like a very good translation; although I doubt the "protection" part but that is what colonizers claim.


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## WadiH

أوصياء
Maybe also أتباع.


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## Xence

I have a reservation about the word أوصياء plural of وصيّ .
According to Lissan al-Arab:


> والوَصِيُّ الذي يُوصي والذي يُوصى له، وهو من الأَضداد


Furthermore, the verb أوصى doesn't convey the idea of protection meant in "protégé", which has a french origin, and simply means a person that is under the protection of another. So, the right translation, imo, would be محميّ (plural محميّون - محميّين ).

Hence my sugestion:
 البلد المحتل يتكفل بحفظ (بصون) محميّيه في تلك المستعمَرة


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## ayed

mahaodeh and Wadi, thanks a lot.


Xence said:


> I have a reservation about the word أوصياء plural of وصيّ .
> According to Lissan al-Arab:
> 
> Furthermore, the verb أوصى doesn't convey the idea of protection meant in "protégé", which has a french origin, and simply means a person that is under the protection of another. So, the right translation, imo, would be محميّ (plural محميّون - محميّين ).
> 
> Hence my sugestion:
> البلد المحتل يتكفل بحفظ (بصون) محميّيه في تلك المستعمَرة


Xence, just because this word is an antonym doesn't mean that it is not used at all.A word is usually govenred by the context.
A protege is usually assigned, sustained and protected by the colonizer.He(the protege) acts often as a ruler.


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## Xence

ayed said:


> Xence, just because this word is an antonym doesn't mean that it is not used at all.A word is usually govenred by the context.


Of course, Ayed. But even in the right sense, وصيّ doesn't seem to be the right translation of "protégé".
Again from Lissan Al-Arab:


> أَوْصى الرجلَ ووَصَّاه: عَهِدَ إِليه


Frankly, I hardly see any idea of protection here.


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## Faylasoof

Hello Ayed,    A while back I too had to do a drill with modern English terminology equivalents of Arabic words. For protégé I interchangeably used   المَحميّ  and   المُحتَم   . I was advised that in a sense both are correct but my teacher had a preference for the latter:  muHtam  (مُحتَم    =    تحت حماية ذى سلطان   = seeking protection, protected, protégé)   So,  I think Xence seems to be right here.   I have always translated   وصىّ  = testator,  executor, plenipotentiary, legal guardian, administrator etc.


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## Mahaodeh

Faylasoof said:


> I have always translated وصىّ = testator, executor, plenipotentiary, legal guardian, administrator etc.


 
True, but don't forget that وصيّ is من الأضداد so it means both the guardian and the one being "guarded".

Anyway, maybe I was a little hastey in agreeing; I do remember the use of أوصياء in history when talking about colonialism, but it was usually refering to the colonizer; i.e., the colonizers are أوصياء over the colonized - my haste was in agreeing to the word and ignoring the fact that here we are not talking about the colonizer but the colonized.  So I guess Xenex is right after all .


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## cherine

Regarding الأضداد , I think we shouldn't forget that وصي is mainly used with one of its meaning: gardian, custodian.... and not its opposite. So, using it with the meaning of "protégé" can be misleading.
Also note that this word, like Xence said, is a French word. It's even word as is in English, rather than being translated into an English word (like "déjà vu" and other French words used in the English language).

So, I hope we agree that it's better to look for another equivalent.
And this is not very easy. 


ayed said:


> Hello, folks of Arabic Forum.
> I have translated a piece of article talks of colonialism. I am not familiar with political terms.Moreove, I am Badawi and don't know of those issues.


Well, Ayed, in Egypt we're more used to those issues 

What about 3amiil عميل ? This would fit perfectly in such a context 


> The colonizing country sustains and protects its *proteges* in that colony.


يرعى المستعمِر عملاءه في الدولة المستعمَرة ويحميهم 
This word is still used today -sometimes, and maybe often- in ironic contexts, referring to how often it was used during colonisation, that it was even an insult to call someone a 3amiil.
It's also used in protests, calling X or Y a عميل الأمريكان or the like.



Faylasoof said:


> For protégé I interchangeably used المَحميّ and المُحتَم . [...]
> (مُحتَم = تحت حماية ذى سلطان = seeking protection, protected, protégé) .


Hello Fylasoof, it's nice to see you here in the Arabic forum 

As far as I understand it, a mu7tamin محتم (note that with the article we "put back" the final yaa2 المحتمي ) is someone seeking protection, but I wouldn't translated as protege, maybe because seeking protection doesn't necessary garantee receiving it.

Of course Xence's suggestion محميين is not incorrect, it's just that it's not as widely used as عملاء .


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## Xence

cherine said:


> What about 3amiil عميل ? This would fit perfectly in such a context


I would rather use عميل as an equivalent of _a_ _collaborator_ (with enemy). Of course almost all collaborators are protégés, in some way or another. But is it true the other way around?


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## cherine

I think so.

Would they protect their protégés if they were not collaborative? 


And let's not forget that another widely used epithet was خائن it was very easy to call someone a treator just because he had a different opinion. But I wouldn't use it in Ayed's text.


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## Xence

I have to disagree, here. 

As far as I am concerned, distinct concepts are rendered by distinct words. If two or many words refer to the same concept, they are synonyms. In this respect, it's easy to verify that _protégé_ and _collaborator_ are not synonyms.
Of course, the same person may be at the same time _a collaborator_ and _a protégé_, in the same way that a woman may be at the same time _a mother_ and _a daughter_, but this doesn't make these two terms synonyms.

Some collaborators may not be protégés at all. They may just contract to do some missions for enemy. Others may be dropped if they no longer fit their bosses' interest.
On the other hand, some protégés may not be intended collaborators. They may be family members of some collaborators or persons who can't help but earn a living in the colonizer system.


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## Haroon

sorry for being late ; what about رعاياه


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## Xence

رعايا is a more general concept, imo. I'd say _subjects_ (of a king, for example).


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## Haroon

from a history book; كانت الدول الكبري تتخذ من الحفاظ على مصالح رعاياها ذريعة للتدخل في شئون الدول الصغرى.


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## Xence

I guess the word here is used in the sense of citizens, which are considered as subjects to a State.
From Dictionary.com, subject means also:


> *18.* being under dominion, rule, or authority, as of a sovereign, state, or some governing power; owing allegiance or obedience (often fol. by _to_).


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## cherine

I agree with what you say, Xence. Collaborator and protégé are certainly different words, and better have different equivalents in Arabic. I was just trying to give a word that is more commonly used than ma7miyyiin.
I checked قاموس المنهل (you sure know it, as a francophone  ) and it seems to agree with you:

protégé:  مَحمي (شخص تحت حماية مُتنَفِّذ أو ذي سلطان) 
Les protégés du ministres: محاسيب الوزير
The word "ma7asiib" is widely used in Egypt, but mostly in colloquial, so I'm not sure it's accepted in fuS7a. But apparently it is. Yet, I still am not sure which one to choose.


As for رعايا they are the citizens of the state. For example, using the pretexts to help English people in Egypt -and their interests-, Britain occupied Egypt. Or, pretexting its worries for the safety of its citizens in Tunisia, France occupied Tunisia....


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## Faylasoof

Hello Cherine,

Thanks for your welcome! Yes, the word I meant was المحتمي . Its been a while since I used Arabic!

I understand what you are saying about the difference in seeking something (protection) and getting it. But I think the same can be said about عميل . 

The meaning of the word protégé is:
“a person under the patronage, protection, or care of someone interested in his or her career or welfare.”
{from http://dictionary.reference.com/)

So in this sense محتم (mu7tamin) could be used. But if we are talking about collaborators / sympathisers and, by implication, betrayers and traitors then perhaps a more forceful term is needed. 

*Urdu*, one of my two mother tongues, as you know has borrowed a lot of words from Arabic and Persian. So I can tell you what we call them: 

collaborator (and sympathiser in this sense) = حامي 

Betrayer and traitor = خائن


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## Xence

cherine said:


> I checked قاموس المنهل (you sure know it, as a francophone  )


Yes, a great dictionary, indeed. A great author also.
Unfortunately, Souheyl Idris has passed away last february...


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## ayed

Thanks all for your comments.In fact, 3ameel would fit here, as mentioned by Cherine.
3ameel is actually assigned by a colonizer to do whatever its *assigner* wishes at thAT colonized region.


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## Mahaodeh

I'm not sure what proteges refers to exactly, if it refers to the entire population of the colonized then عميل won't work because in modern use it specifically refers to a collaborator with the enemy, in this case the colonizer: a person that works for the benefit of or assists the colonizer, the occupying army or any other enemy. It has a very negative connotation.


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