# Ironia della sorte



## gromag

Ciao, come rendere "Ironia della sorte" in inglese?


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## ElaineG

The irony of fate.


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## gromag

Thanks, ElaineG.
It's strange though, it seems "The irony of fate" doesn't ring any bell to my English collegues. They would use only irony or ironic in the same context. Any other suggestions of an english way of saying meaning the Italian "Ironia della sorte"?


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## You little ripper!

_Irony of fate_ is quite a well known expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony


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## gromag

I've been just said "Twist of fate" or "Bitter twist of fate" to use in the same context.


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## You little ripper!

You could possibly use the expression _unexpected turn of events._


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## You little ripper!

gromag said:
			
		

> I've been just said "Twist of fate" or "Bitter twist of fate" to use in the same context.


Yes, both of those are quite acceptable."Twist of fate" is closer to the Italian "ironia della sorte".


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## ElaineG

gromag said:
			
		

> I've been just told to use "Twist of fate" or "Bitter twist of fate" in the same context.


 
"Twist of fate" is an expression.  I don't know who your English colleagues are or what type of English they speak, but "the irony of fate" is perfectly normal English expression (cf. 147,000 Google hits).


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## gromag

I bounced the ball to my collegue, and he just explained that while "irony of fate" is a valid english sentence, though he reckons it's not an "expression" in the way could be "ironia della sorte" or "Twist of fate". 

(Twist of fate 1,150,000 results)

Grazie.


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## radiation woman

Please could you put it in context for us?  I think it may be something like "As chance would have it..." in English, but as Charles and Elaine have a different interpretation I would like to see an example before I dare to contradict them... (sorry guys!)


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## carrickp

To me "irony of fate" is an observation on life.
A "twist of fate" is a specific example of this principle in action.


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## Silvia

radiation woman said:
			
		

> Please could you put it in context for us?  I think it may be something like "As chance would have it..." in English, but as Charles and Elaine have a different interpretation I would like to see an example before I dare to contradict them... (sorry guys!)


Paola era l'unica della classe a non aver studiato e, ironia della sorte, è stata anche l'unica ad essere interrogata.

A causa del maltempo, il papà di Pierino non ha voluto prendere la macchina, per paura di qualche incidente ma, ironia della sorte, è caduto un albero sull'auto mentre era parcheggiata


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## radiation woman

Thanks Silvia.  It reminds me a bit of the expression "Sod's law" in English, although to use this in the sentences you gave, you'd have to change the whole structure of the sentence.  E.g.

It was Sod's law that Paola, the only one in the class who hadn't studied for the test, was the one the teacher tested.

However, going back to what I said earlier, I must confess that I think Charles' "by a bitter twist of fate" is a good translation after all, and is easier to translate as it doesn't involve reorganising the whole sentence.​


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## Silvia

Hi radiation woman, thanks for providing a new expression:
Sod's law = if something can go wrong then it will.

It's a nice expression. Anyway, what about a simple "ironically"?


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## radiation woman

Silvia said:
			
		

> Anyway, what about a simple "ironically"?


 
Silvia,
I think some people might use it in this context, but I think that in terms of a strict dictionary definition of ironic, it isn't really correct.  Please see the definition I found below:

*ironic* *A*_adjective_*1 **ironic*, ironical
_characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is; "madness, an ironic fate for such a clear thinker"; "it was ironical that the well-planned scheme failed so completely" _*2 *dry, *ironic*, ironical, wry
_humorously sarcastic or mocking; "dry humor"; "an ironic remark often conveys an intended meaning obliquely"; "an ironic novel"; "an ironical smile"; "with a wry Scottish wit" _​


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## Silvia

To me it fits perfectly


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## radiation woman

Silvia said:
			
		

> To me it fits perfectly


 
It's true that it fits perfectly with the two examples that you gave, but isn't "ironia della sorte" more to do with bad luck than things turning out differently to the way you would expect? I think there might be a subtle difference in meaning.


​


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## Silvia

radiation woman said:
			
		

> It's true that it fits perfectly with the two examples that you gave, but isn't "ironia della sorte" more to do with bad luck than things turning out differently to the way you would expect? I think there might be a subtle difference in meaning.


 No, it means "ironically", something like "this is what life is like"... when things turn out the opposite of what you expect.

But of course it can be seen as bad luck, just a matter of perspective


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## radiation woman

Silvia said:
			
		

> No, it means "ironically", something like "this is what life is like"... when things turn out the opposite of what you expect.
> 
> But of course it can be seen as bad luck, just a matter of perspective


 
In that case it fits perfectly!​


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## psnplx

Avevo sentito parlare di "bitter irony" non so se possa andar bene. Casomai correggetemi se fosse sbagliato.


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## Einstein

I agree with Silvia. "Ironically" is used a lot in English in this way and can be difficult to translate into Italian. The usual solution is precisely a rhetorical-sounding phrase like "per ironia della sorte".


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## anglomania1

ElaineG said:


> "Twist of fate" is an expression.  I don't know who your English colleagues are or what type of English they speak, but "the irony of fate" is perfectly normal English expression (cf. 147,000 Google hits).


Ironically" sounds good to me, too!
I have to say, in answer to Elaine's question, maybe the colleagues were British! I've never heard of the "irony of fate" - maybe it's AE and Aus?
None of the Brits here have endorsed it!!
Just a thought


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## You little ripper!

It's in Dictionary.com, but gets re-directed to _cosmic irony._

Cosmic irony | Define Cosmic irony at Dictionary.com
noun

_the idea that fate, destiny, or a god controls and toys with human hopes and expectations; also, the belief that the universe is so large and man is so small that the universe is indifferent to the plight of man; also called irony of fate_


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## Archilochus

"Ironic twist" is pretty common.


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## You little ripper!

Archilochus said:


> "Ironic twist" is pretty common.


That's the one I like the most!


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## curiosone

Silvia said:


> Hi radiation woman, thanks for providing a new expression:
> Sod's law = if something can go wrong then it will.



I also thank radiation woman for a term I wasn't familiar with (Sod's law).  I guess the AmE version would be "Murphy's Law".


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## Einstein

curiosone said:


> I also thank radiation woman for a term I wasn't familiar with (Sod's law).  I guess the AmE version would be "Murphy's Law".


Yes, we know Murphy's Law in BrE too, but maybe it's less common and comes from AmE.


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## curiosone

Einstein said:


> Yes, we know Murphy's Law in BrE too, but maybe it's less common and comes from AmE.



I think I can confirm the AmE origin of Murphy's Law.  It's been around for a long time (starting, I think, with some humourous books), and is very common.  In recent years have I heard Italians refer to "La Legge di Murphy" (perhaps thanks to the translation of those books).  So maybe we have another selection for the BrE/AmE differences file?

p.s.: if I were to translate "Murphy's Law", I'd probably call it "La Legge della Sfiga".


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## Teerex51

curiosone said:


> I'd probably call it "La Legge della Sfiga".


While on this note:_ La fortuna è cieca, la sfiga ci vede benissimo._


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## tsoapm

gromag said:


> "The irony of fate" doesn't ring any bell to my English collegues





anglomania1 said:


> I have to say, in answer to Elaine's question, maybe the colleagues were British! I've never heard of the "irony of fate" - maybe it's AE and Aus?
> None of the Brits here have endorsed it!!


Già. Thumbs down from this Englishman too.


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## Einstein

"Irony of fate" is something I would understand immediately, but it's not a standard expression.

Just wondering about "ironically". Sometimes it refers to a situation that invites us to make ironical comments. "The minister XXX said that pensioners must learn to make sacrifices. Ironically it was the same minister who had declared in a chat show that it was impossible to live on less than 4,000 euro a month".
Obviously there's no "twist of fate" in this situation, so "ironically" doesn't always correspond.


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