# 日本人: にほんじん／にっぽんじん



## Whodunit

こんにちは。 

How is the word 日本人 pronounced correctly? On the English Wikipedia page, it is pronounced like にほんじん. This page converts it to にっぽんじん and the Japanese Wikipedia page labels both pronunciation as correct: にほんじん・にっぽんじん.

So, which one is the correct pronunciation?


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## Flaminius

Okay, straight to the point.  Both are correct.


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## Whodunit

Flaminius said:


> Okay, straight to the point. Both are correct.


 
To be honest: That was the answer expected but not wished. 

Does one or the other occur more often in this or that dialect? Do you have a personal preference?

It's really sad that each kanji can have multiple readings.


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## Hiro Sasaki

Most people say now " Nihonjin ". Under the militaristic ages, military 
persons used to say " Nipponjin" which sounds more strong.

日本男児　（　にっぽん　だんじ　）　implies " a good Japanese man ".

"Traditional Japanese hair style" 日本髪　is pronounced "Nihon gami" and 
never " にっぽんがみ　”。

The pronunciation of " Nippon" has not not a long history. 

Hiro Sasaki


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## cheshire

You hear much more often "nihonjin" (にほんじん） since, I suspect, it's more economical (にっぽんじん　requires more energy to pronounce).

On the other hand, you'll often hear にっぽん "nippon" for cheering Japanese national teams, because it's more 気合がはいっている?


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## Hiro Sasaki

日本橋　（　にっぽんばし　）　in Osaka is like 秋葉原　in Tokyo, where there are
hundreds of stores of electronic appliances. 日本橋（　にほんばし　）　in Tokyo
was the starting point to travel to Kyoto.  

日本舞踊　（　にほんぶよう　）traditional Japanese dances.

日本刀　（　にほんとう　and less often にっぽんとう　）　Japanese sword.

日本茶　（　にほんちゃ　）　Japanese tea. 

日本銀行　（　にほんぎんこう　）( The Bank of Jaoan, which is the central bank 
of Japan ) 　but 10,000 yen bill bears "Nippon".

和菓子　（　わがし　）　Japanese cakes and candies.

和風（わふう）　　スパゲッティ　Japanese style spaghetti 
日本風（　にほんふう　）　Japanese style. 

大和魂　（　やまとだましい　）　＝　Japanese guts or Japanese spirit.


日本女性　（　にほんじょせい　）　Japanese woman.

大日本( だいにっぽん　）　 　ｘｘｘ。　（　The Great Japan xxxx )


日本狼　（　にほんおおかみ　）　Japanese wolf ( which does not exist now ).

日本猿　（　にほんざる　）　Japanese monkeys.

Hiro Sasaki


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## Claire Steiner

Nippon is the honorific form. I've never heard it in casual conversation. I would tend to agree with Hiro, seeing as that the "-pon" part of the word sounds suspiciously like the "pen" in the Mandarin "ji pen" (from which many western European languages get "Giappone", "Japon", etc.), and I find it hard to believe that Japanese would have not developed the word "Nihon" before China demanded tribute.


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## Flaminius

Claire Steiner said:


> I find it hard to believe that Japanese would have not developed the word "Nihon" before China demanded tribute.



But nihon/nippon is of Chinese origin.  It was coined by the Japanese, using Chinese morphemes; just like _morpheme_ is of Greek origin despite the fact that it was not the Greeks who coind the word.

There is a similar thread.  You might want to take a look.


Flam


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## cheshire

Claire Steiner said:


> *Nippon is the honorific form*. I've never heard it in casual conversation. I would tend to agree with Hiro, seeing as that the "-pon" part of the word sounds suspiciously like the "pen" in the Mandarin "ji pen" (from which many western European languages get "Giappone", "Japon", etc.), and I find it hard to believe that Japanese would have not developed the word "Nihon" before China demanded tribute.


Are you pulling our legs or have you ever learned Japanese?


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## Hiro Sasaki

Nihon is not a word of chinese origin. A old folk song of Kyushu says
”　日の本一のこの槍を　（　ひのもと　いちの　このやりを　）　－　the best lance in 
Japan.

The chinese people preferred to call Japanese 倭人　　－　small people
and Japan as 倭国　－　country of small people. 

When in 607,  a Japanese embassy went to China of Sui dynasty to
establish diplomatic relations with China, a letter was presented to 
the Chinese emperor. It said : The emperor of Sun rising country 日出る国　－　ひいずるくに　 has the　honor to ask the Emperor of Sun Setting country how your excellency was ". 


Hiro Sasaki


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## cheshire

日本は日本が起源というのは本当？日は呉音で入声で中国から入ってきたぽいけど、自信なしです。


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## Flaminius

Hiro Sasaki said:


> Nihon is not a word of chinese origin.



As I have defined _supra_, any words derived from Chinese morphemes are of "Chinese origin."



cheshire said:


> 日本は日本が起源というのは本当？



Cheshire  , what a great point!  History should be interpreted with grain of salt such as this question.  I think it is fairly safe to assume that it was the Japanese who promoted the _idea_ of their country (whatever that would mean in the context of 8th century) being the Land of Rising Sun or Sun's Origin.   But the origin of the _word_ nihon/nippon could be different from that of the _idea_.  Do you think it is possible that the word was originally the Chinese calque of "Land of Rising Sun" (hinomoto, hi idzuru kuni, etc.)?


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## bioch

I don't know anything about Japanese except that they use to be chinese, I also didn't know that they had two different writing. Am I correct? But one looks exactly like chinese. For instance 日本人 means Japanese people.


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## cheshire

> Do you think it is possible that the word was originally the Chinese calque of "Land of Rising Sun" (hinomoto, hi idzuru kuni, etc.)?


うーん、ありうると思うけど。聖徳太子か誰かが中国の誰かにあてて日のいづる国、と書いてたと思うけど、自信なしです。「日の出づる国」のほうが「日の沈む国」より縁起がいいから。「マグレブ」なんて呼び名の国もあることはあるでしょうけどね。


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## Hiro Sasaki

cheshire said:


> 日本は日本が起源というのは本当？日は呉音で入声で中国から入ってきたぽいけど、自信なしです。


 
Before the Hiragana and Katakana were invented, the Japanese words 
were written using the chinese letters or Kanji. Sometimes, the letters 
expressed the meaning, but other times, the chinese charaters were
appllied phonetically.

Therefore, 大和（　やまと　－　Japan 　）　was sometimes written 山門　（　やまと　）。But,Japan did not mean the mountain gate. 

Some words were pronounced in both ways, Japanese and chinese. 
Now, people do not pronouce 日本　as ひのもと。　”　Nippon " and "Nihon"
both are the pronouciations influenced by the chinese language. But,
it does not mean that 日本　is of the chinese origin. During the 9th 
century at least, the word 日本　was used in diplomatic documents 
directed to the chinese government of Tang Dynasty. But, the chinese 
did not used the word 日本。

Hiro Sasaki


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## cheshire

中国の道具（漢字というシステム）を使って日本人が思いついたちゅうわけやな。だったら「日本人が考え付いた」と言ってもええやろ。
おおきに、めったに話題にのぼらないやつやったさかい、おもろかったわ。


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## Aoyama

> Most people say now " Nihonjin ". Under the militaristic ages, military
> persons used to say " Nipponjin" which sounds more strong.


I basically agree with that (having been _taught_ exactly that many years ago). *Nihon* and *Nippon*, thought lexically the same thing, bare a different  "color". Politicians from the right will be more prone to use *Nippon*, for some reasons that someone could explain ...


> 日本男児　（　にっぽん　だんじ　）　implies " a good Japanese man ".


Hiro Sasaki gives a very good and interesting set of examples. I'm not sure, however, if にっぽん is an absolute must here.


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## Aoyama

> Nihon is not a word of chinese origin.


True, the forgotten name of *Cipangu* , from chinese *ribenguo* probably read at that time (400 years ago) close to something like *Jipengo* ,is.


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## Hiro Sasaki

Aoyamasan

中国語を一年　勉強しましたが　私の耳には　日本　は　ジーペンと聞こえます。
スペイン語では　JA は　”ハ”と発音しますが　ポルトガルでは　”ジャ”となり
日本は　ジャポンとなります。　

私の記憶では　”にっぽん”という発音されるようになったのは　昭和の初めで　早くても　明治の終わり頃です。軍人が使いはじめたそうです。　会社の名前で　大日本（だいにっぽん　）　ｘｘｘｘ　というのがありますが　にっぽん　という発音は　限られた場合にしかいいません。日本の正式名は　日本国　（　にほんこく　）　です。


Hiro Sasaki


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## Aoyama

> 中国語を一年　勉強しましたが　私の耳には　日本　は　ジーペンと聞こえます。
> スペイン語では　JA は　”ハ”と発音しますが　ポルトガルでは　”ジャ”となり
> 日本は　ジャポンとなります。


現代中国語なら：　”日本国”　の発音は　（ribenguo）　ｼﾞｭーベン/ペン (p/b) グオ/クオ　となります。そこから　Japan　が生まれた　と　考えられる。


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## Lugubert

shaloo said:


> Wow... Thanks Eddie Cai... so, that means jin...!
> 
> 
> In this, ほんじん = hon jin and "日本人" is the kanji for ni ??


No, Kanji is 日本人 and Hiragana is にほんじん. Either way, you pronounce it nihonjin. What I haven't understood is when and where and why 日本 is Nippon.


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## EddieCai

Lugubert said:


> No, Kanji is 日本人 and Hiragana is にほんじん. Either way, you pronounce it nihonjin. What I haven't understood is when and where and why 日本 is Nippon.


 
As I know, Nippon was decided to be the country's name in year 1970. But I don't know why... better wait for answer from some にほんじん 

1970. 7.14(昭和45)日本の国名を「ニッポン」とすることが閣議で決定する。

===============

Someone just told me a reason: because ニッポン sounds much more inspiring than にほん, like in ”「がんばれニッポン」, just not sure...


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## rukiak

EddieCai said:


> Someone just told me a reason: because ニッポン sounds much more inspiring than にほん, like in ”「がんばれニッポン」, just not sure...


I've heard that ,too. from an unreliable source...though, it make sense.



Lugubert said:


> No, Kanji is 日本人 and Hiragana is にほんじん. Either way, you pronounce it nihonjin. What I haven't understood is when and where and why 日本 is Nippon.


Ｉｔ depends. Some proper nouns are fixed on either one, and formally you had better pronounce in the right way. 
But even japanese people don't know the proper one in each case, and whether you pronounce nippon or nihon, normally it doesn't matter. If you are worring about proper way, you can choose and use just 'nihon'.


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## shaloo

EddieCai said:


> Sorry for having not explained it clearly... I should've said *日本人 = にほんじん = nihonjin*


 
There's no need to be sorry Eddie Cai... I understood your explanation very much the same way as you meant.
I believe it was _me_ who was not clear in putting my question properly, having forgotten to mention "hiragana" when I said にほんじん = hon jin. And thats where things got mixed up!



Lugubert said:


> No, Kanji is 日本人 and Hiragana is にほんじん. Either way, you pronounce it nihonjin. What I haven't understood is when and where and why 日本 is Nippon.


 
Thanks for your clarification Lugubert... Its double clear now


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## Flaminius

EddieCai said:


> As I know, Nippon was decided to be the country's name in year 1970. But I don't know why... better wait for answer from some にほんじん
> 
> 1970. 7.14(昭和45)日本の国名を「ニッポン」とすることが閣議で決定する。


The latest research by the Government revealed that there was never such a decision.  Click.

I don't know until when the above news item remains in public view, so I'd better reproduce the gist here.

A MP from the opposition submitted a question to the Government as to what the correct pronunciation of the country name; 日本.  The news item reports that the Cabinet has made a decision (to be filed as an answer during the parliamentary session) that both _nippon_ and _nihon_ are correct.


			
				衆議院議員岩國哲人の質問への答弁として (閣議案件2009年06月30日) said:
			
		

> 『にっぽん』又は『にほん』という読み方については、いずれも広く通用しており、どちらか一方に統一する必要はない


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