# Pronunciation: 落



## yuechu

大家好！

I was recently reading the novel 北京青年 and had a question about the following sentences:

  何守三一听何南把加拿大的职辞了，气得都跳起来了，*等落回地面*，就开始想辙。何守三是何家四兄弟里唯一的工人阶级，原来在吉林插队，后上了个技校，折腾回北京后就在工厂当技工。
[p. 58]

我想问一下： What does 落 mean here? Also, is it pronounced luo4, lao4 or la4?
Thanks!


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## fyl

baosheng said:


> 气得都*跳起来*了，等*落回*地面


It's luo4 and means "fall". He "jumped up" and then "fell" back to the ground.

lao4 is also possible except it sounds too dialectal (old people in dialectal areas may say lao4 here). Basically, lao4 means the same as luo4, though in some words only one pronunciation is possible (because the word is formal/dialectal).


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## Skatinginbc

It may cause comprehension difficulty for me if you pronounce lao4 for "physically dropping downward to a lower position" (i.e., "to fall down"; e.g., 落回地面).  In contrast, it will not confuse me or may even sound natural to me if lao4 is used to mean "to get (an outcome) or result in (a consequence) 得到某种结果; e.g., 落得如此下場, 落下病根".


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## yuechu

Thanks for your help, fyl and Skatinginbc!


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## retrogradedwithwind

某某东西落下来了
有时能听到上面这句读lao 的


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## M Mira

我「落單」的「落」指「孤獨」時只會唸lào，不會唸luò，指「下訂單」的時候相反。但除此和除了「落跑」的「落」是閩南語之外好像就沒有lào的了。


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## Skatinginbc

那隻野雁落在池裡, 沒跟上一年一度的種族大遷移 ==> If I hear lào, I will surely interpret it as "to stay".  If I hear luò, then it is potentially ambiguous in that sentence although I tend to interpret it as "to fall, drop".  And that's why I said that it may cause comprehension difficulty for me (perhaps for me only ), if you say lào meaning "to fall, drop".


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## yuechu

大家好！
I was reading an article about 杭州博物馆 today and had a question about the following sentence: 杭州博物馆坐落于浙江省杭州市。How do you pronounce 落于？Should it be pronounced as luòyú? I think the meaning is "to be located", right?
Thanks!


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## SuperXW

baosheng said:


> I was reading an article about 杭州博物馆 today and had a question about the following sentence: 杭州博物馆坐落于浙江省杭州市。How do you pronounce 落于？Should it be pronounced as luòyú? I think the meaning is "to be located", right?
> Thanks!


The word is 坐落 zuo4luo4. 坐落于=is located in


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## Youngfun

I've heard of _lào_ only in 落枕 (stiff neck, neck pain). 

I still remember that when learning Chinese as a child, the textbook had a sentence that was something like that: 一只小鸟落在树上.
The textbook noted the reading of 落 as _lào_, causing embarrassment to our teacher who had read it _luò_. Then he said that both pronunciations are correct.
So does _luò_ mean the bird was flying and then fell over the tree? While _lào_ means that it was standing on the tree?


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## Skatinginbc

一隻小鳥落lao4在樹上 ==> 遺留/遺棄
一隻小鳥落luo2在樹上 ==> 降到/掉到  
丟三落四 ==> lao4 (遺留/遺棄)


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## fyl

Here in north China there is almost no difference between the meanings of luo4 and lao4. Both can be 降落 and 停留. The difference is only 白读/文读.
(In standard 普通话 as defined in 现代汉语词典, there is also no difference in meaning. The sound lao4 is restricted to some specific words.)
And 丢三落四 would be diu1san1la4(辣)si4 here (both in life and dictionary).


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> 一隻小鳥落lao4在樹上 ==> 遺留/遺棄
> 丟三落四 ==> lao4 (遺留/遺棄)


This meaning pronounces la4 in Mainland standard Mandarin. Is lao4 the standard in Taiwan?


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> Is lao4 the standard in Taiwan?


No, not the "standard" prescribed by the dictionaries, but the pronunciation you would actually hear in daily life.  Although the dictionaries list three sounds for 落 (i.e., luo4, lao4, la4), the first two have practically merged into luo4, and la4 has turned into lao4 in Taiwan Mandarin.


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## retrogradedwithwind

莲花落呢？怎么读？


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## Skatinginbc

字典說lao4, 但在台灣一般讀luo4.
到Youtube隨便找個「兄妹蓮花落」來聽聽, 譬如李麗華和嚴俊的, 明珠姐妹的, 五福星的, 都是讀luo4。
這不是花開花落luo4的落嗎？


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## retrogradedwithwind

主要是在字典上见到说“莲花落”之落读lao, 颇为好奇，又没在生活中接触过这个词，也不知道怎么读。所以就来问问。不过我确实觉得读lao更……额，更像个曲子？

自古就有梅花落，也算是源远流长了。


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## fyl

莲花落是传统曲艺的一种，现在已经快要失传了，我也不懂，不过北方都是读lao4的。至于luo4...闻所未闻。
如果听到luo4，我觉得。。那个艺人搞不好要被轰下去。。他/她唱的应该不是莲花落，而是自己发明的东西。
刚听了「兄妹莲花落」，那根本就是「歌」，传统曲艺不可能有这种调。。
郭德纲以前不是经常把十不闲、莲花落一类的挂嘴边吗？


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## Youngfun

Skatinginbc said:


> 一隻小鳥落lao4在樹上 ==> 遺留/遺棄
> 一隻小鳥落luo2在樹上 ==> 降到/掉到
> 丟三落四 ==> lao4 (遺留/遺棄)


And I've never heard 落 as luo2... don't you mean luo4?

If in Taiwan lao4 = Mainland la4, then 一只小鸟落la4在树上 doesn't make sense to me. 
Unless you mean 有人把小鸟落la4在树上了, i.e. somebody had to take the bird away, but "forgot" to and "left" it on the tree.

那么，你们怎么念“落枕”呢？


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## Skatinginbc

Youngfun said:


> And I've never heard 落 as luo2... don't you mean luo4?


Yup.  That was a typo .  I meant luo4.


Youngfun said:


> 一只小鸟落la4在树上 doesn't make sense to me


落la4: (1) 遺漏、忘記; (2) 掉在後面、跟不上.  一只小鳥沒跟上遷徙的隊伍, (被)落la4在樹上。
落la4, 在台灣日常生活中, 幾乎不存在(除了大陸遊客吧).  基本上落都讀落luo4, 要強調不是平常的落(降下掉下留下), 而是別的意思, 頂多會讀成lao4, 而不是la4.


fyl said:


> 传统曲艺不可能有这种调。


找個傳統越劇蓮花落來聽聽, 不僅歌中唱的是luo4, 藝人受訪時也用普通話說「今天要為各位表演蓮花落luo4」.  「歌中唱的」這四個字是重點。 「蓮花落」作為曲名或出現於歌詞裡，我認為應該讀luo4, 意思就是花開花落的落。「蓮花落」作為乞丐說唱形式(曲式)的一個專有名詞(其歌詞通常與蓮花無關),字典說應該讀lao4.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> 找個傳統越劇蓮花落來聽聽, 不僅歌中唱的是luo4, 藝人受訪時也用普通話說「今天要為各位表演蓮花落luo4」.  「歌中唱的」這四個字是重點。 「蓮花落」作為曲名或出現於歌詞裡，我認為應該讀luo4, 意思就是花開花落的落。「蓮花落」作為乞丐說唱形式(曲式)的一個專有名詞(其歌詞通常與蓮花無關),字典說應該讀lao4.


南方的怎么可能听的出luo还是lao？越剧不是用方言唱的吗？你确定不是方言的lo(ʔ)之类的？不管读的是什么，方言音系和普通话也不是一一对应的啊，很可能人家那里「落」就不是多音字呢。
luo和lao两个音都来源于lo（-ok这个韵很多很多字在北方话里都是文白两读，以前我提过很多次了），且lo和luo、lao都很像。你如果听到lo(ʔ)，则说明不了普通话的读音。


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## Skatinginbc

Check out the Youtube video titled "Chinese Yueju Opera: A Begger's Song" performed by 徐銘。Pay attention to the interview prior to the performance.  徐銘 said in Mandarin that she would be performing 蓮花落luo4.
We are discussing 落's Mandarin pronunciation here.  That the 越劇蓮花落藝人 pronounced  luo4 in Mandarin is the main point of my previous post.

我說「蓮花落」作為曲名或歌詞該讀luo4時, 也是在討論 Mandarin. 當然方言戲曲會用方言唱 , 就不一定是luo4了。


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## fyl

Just listened. I think the performer pronounced something unclearly (like... 乐?). 莲花lao4 is a traditional northern pronunciation. Maybe she's just not aware of this.
Anyway, 莲花luo4 is definitely strange to me. (In fact, not just to me. The two comments under this video was "莲花luo 有没有错..." and "就我所知是莲花lào".) I don't know how southerners performers would pronounce this.


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## Skatinginbc

So the comments also suggest that what they heard was luo4. I think luo4 is the correct pronunciation here becuase 蓮花落的落 in the lyrics means 落難的落, 落得如此下場的落.

「不僅唱的是luo4」==> I meant the 落 in the lyrics corresponds to the 落luo4 (落難) in Mandarin.

換個角度來討論, 北方蓮花落的落lao4, 是什麼意思？


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> 換個角度來討論, 北方蓮花落的落lao4, 是什麼意思？


As said in #12, there is no difference between lao4 and luo4 in terms of meaning here in north China. (In fact, some senior people may only use lao4 and almost no luo4.) All your interpretations using luo4 applies to lao4.
I have no idea what 莲花落 originally means. As it has become 落lao4子zi in some places, the original meaning may have disappeared. 莲花落lao4 and 落lao4子 are just what everyone says, and luo4 would not be understandable here.


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## Skatinginbc

其實「兄妹蓮花落」和越劇「蓮花落」都不是北方所指的「蓮花落」(曲式). 既然此蓮花落luo4非彼蓮花落lao4也, 又何必堅持通通都讀蓮花落lao4呢？


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## fyl

「兄妹莲花落」不是「莲花落」，不管是读lao4还是luo4我都没意见。我以前也从来没听说过「兄妹莲花落」，我的回复指的是「莲花落」。
越剧莲花落和北方的莲花落是什么关系，我一时还搞不清楚，但目前来看我觉得基本是一种东西。如果是不同的东西，怎么读我都没意见。如果是同一个事物，就应该用广泛接受的、字典承认的读音，坚持另一种谁也听不懂的读音才是需要理由的。


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## Skatinginbc

Check out this Youtube video titled "News segment about lianhualao莲花落 performer from Jiangsu province, eastern China."  Both of the Mainland news reporters (one male, one female) pronounced 莲花落 luo4.

徐銘的越劇莲花落是唱完了说, 说完了唱. 北方人张云雷的莲花落是边唱边说 (唱著说, 说著唱).


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## fyl

Clearly the reporters have mispronounced this word if they say 莲花luo4. It is the rule here that new broadcasts must follow the standard dictionary (and otherwise it's a mistake).
I have no interest continuing with this as I see no reason to classify anything other than "the sound people know" and "the sound in dictionary" as a "correct sound". Believe or not, for people do say the word 莲花落 in Mandarin, it is always lao4; for those who pronounce it as luo4, there is a high chance that the word is not a part of their vocabulary.


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## Skatinginbc

毫無疑問, 且是不爭的事實, 「蓮花落」(as well as 落子) 作為一個北方說唱藝術的專有名詞, 不論是大陸還是台灣, 其標準發音都是lao4. 是北方的東西, 當然照北方的讀法。

可是,「蓮花落」一詞, 有時不是指北方的說唱藝術。它會被用於歌詞中, 有字面的意義(蓮花落了), 而非無義的虛詞。這樣的蓮花落還讀lao4嗎？ 南方人平常生活中又會怎麼讀呢？唱「蓮花落」的越劇藝人讀luo4, 她可是天天接觸該詞的人, 我們不能說蓮花落不是她的 vocabulary 吧!  報導「蓮花落」的記者讀luo4, 我們不能說大家的直覺反應都會跟北方人一樣讀lao4吧。看了一些紹興蓮花落的影片, 其中一位南方口音的主持人不說lao4, 而是 le4, 儘管和他搭檔、操北方口音的主持人讀lao4.  讀le4也是有根據的。 據說「蓮花落」一詞就是由「蓮花樂」轉化而來。


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## fyl

「莲花落」是专有名词，是不是仅限于「北方」的，还有待查证。以我目前的了解，南北莲花落是同一个事物、同一个词。如果是不同的事物偏巧取了同一个名字，这不同的事物还正巧都是曲艺，这有多大可能？
除了专有名词之外的用法，不在我讨论之内，像什么「莲花落了」，这不是抬杠嘛。。
报道「莲花落」的主持人就是读错了，按照字典发音这是基本要求啊，您那里主持人难道遇到不认识的词不查字典？犯了这种错误不扣工资？#28楼那个新闻我刚听了一下，居然说“莲花落luo4，俗称落luo4子zi3”，这显然是错误无疑，“落子”谁能听得懂。。。
南方自然有传统的方言读法，而说普通话自然要用普通话的读法。
徐铭那个视频你最好用0.5倍速重新听听，我觉得说的就是le4（#23）。（视频下的两条评论或许是指唱词中的「莲花落」，但那是吴语发音。）「莲花乐」和「莲花落」是同一种东西，也都是专有名词。


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## Skatinginbc

历史沿革: 佛教劝善和募捐的一种演唱形式。
Earliest attestations:
隋唐敦煌遺書 《散花梵文一本(#S.4690)》: 散蓮花樂　散花林, 散蓮花樂　滿道場, 啟首歸依三學滿　散花樂, 天人大世十方尊　滿道場, 昔在雪山求半偈　散花樂, 不顧軀命舍全身　滿道場.

南宋杭州靈隱寺普濟《五燈會元》俞道婆, 金陵人也, 市油餈為業, 常隨眾參問琅邪, 邪以臨濟無位真人話示之。 一日, 聞丐者唱蓮華樂云: 不因柳毅傳書信, 何緣得到洞庭湖。

元．張國賓(大都人)《合汗衫》:  沒奈何，我唱個蓮花落，討些兒飯吃咱。

蓮花落: 越劇蓮花落, 太原蓮花落, 十不閒蓮花落(流行於京、津、河北等地)...
蘇州吴语: 樂 loʔ = 落 loʔ = 駱 loʔ (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 læ (Mandarin lao4)
溫州吴语: 樂 lo = 落 lo = 駱 lo (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 lɜ (Mandarin lao4)
太原晉語: 樂 luaʔ/luəʔ = 落 luaʔ/lau 陰入/luɔʔ = 駱 luaʔ/lau 陰入/luəʔ/lɤ (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 lau 去 (Mandarin lau 去)  

廣西蓮花落以「零零落」為泛聲 (衬腔或尾声) ==> Mandarin 零落 líng2 luò4.
湖南蓮花落以「令令羅」為泛聲 (衬腔或尾声) ==> Mandarin 羅 luo2.


Skatinginbc said:


> 北方人张云雷的莲花落是边唱边说 (唱著说, 说著唱).


我指的是由莲花落演化而来, 在北方流行的太平歌词形式, 前半句唱後半句说 or 前半句说後半句唱。


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> 蓮花落: 越劇蓮花落, 太原蓮花落, 十不閒蓮花落(流行於京、津、河北等地)...
> 蘇州吴语: 樂 loʔ = 落 loʔ = 駱 loʔ (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 læ (Mandarin lao4)
> 溫州吴语: 樂 lo = 落 lo = 駱 lo (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 lɜ (Mandarin lao4)
> 太原晉語: 樂 luaʔ/luəʔ = 落 luaʔ/lau 陰入/luɔʔ = 駱 luaʔ/lau 陰入/luəʔ/lɤ (Mandarin luo4) ≠ 澇 lau 去 (Mandarin lau 去)


Again, Mandarin luo4=Mandarin lao4=original lo(ʔ).
See Pronunciation: 着想 for similar characters.
In fact, even 乐 was also pronounced yao4 (单田芳：奏zou4乐yao4）.
The kind of rhyme (-ok,-ak,etc) can definitely be -ao in Mandarin. 涝 is not the only source of lao4.

You can look up in dictionaries to see if 莲花乐 and 莲花落 are the same thing. (For example, 国语辞典，「莲花落」条目：也作「落子」、「哩嗹花兒」、「哩嗹」、「蓮花樂」)



Skatinginbc said:


> 我指的是由莲花落演化而来, 在北方流行的太平歌词形式, 前半句唱後半句说 or 前半句说後半句唱。


现在的天平歌词和莲花落是两码事。太平歌词也有全唱的，北方的莲花落也有大段的唱。


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## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> 现在的天平歌词和莲花落是两码事。 太平歌词也有全唱的，北方的莲花落也有大段的唱。


我並沒有說他們是同義詞. 我只想說，北方的莲花落有曲藝化的趨勢, 譬如張雲雷的"太平歌词莲花落王二姐思夫". 主持人說他要表演"莲花落"(沒說太平歌词), 可是極大部分其實是太平歌词. 這種組合就是我指的"莲花落曲藝化".


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## darren8221

Skatinginbc said:


> Yup.  That was a typo .  I meant luo4.
> 
> 落la4: (1) 遺漏、忘記; (2) 掉在後面、跟不上.  一只小鳥沒跟上遷徙的隊伍, (被)落la4在樹上。
> 落la4, 在台灣日常生活中, 幾乎不存在(除了大陸遊客吧).  基本上落都讀落luo4, 要強調不是平常的落(降下掉下留下), 而是別的意思, 頂多會讀成lao4, 而不是la4.



la4 常用在無心的失誤。在台灣比較常聽到 la4 的場合是棒球比賽。一位球員球沒接乾淨，會說標準國語「落(la4)掉」或者台語「落(lak)去」。我想國語的發音應該是從台語習來的。另外「丟三落(la4)四」也是較常出現的成語。

lao4 通常用在負面的句子或詞：「落單」、「落得」、「落枕」（是一種造成痛苦的症狀）等等。Edit: 在台灣有漸漸變成 luo4 的趨勢。

luo4 用在其他中性的詞：「著落」、「座落」、「下落」（下落不是一種負面的詞，「我們找到他的下落了」）等等。


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## yuechu

"女子落海38小时奇迹生还"
I read this sentence today on Decipher Chinese. It is pronounced luò here, right?
Thanks!


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## yuechu

and here, it is also pronounced luò, right?

你的心，如果每天都*落*在那些是非、有无、来去、对错、你我之中，就永远得不到寂静。
每个人的世界，其实都是自己造就的，不应怨天尤人。
试着把那些“都是别人的错”的念头，换成“都是我的错”。
那么从反思，自省，改善自己的那一刻起。就是心寂静自在的时刻。
(I think I kind of understand the meaning of 落 here from the context, but I can't seem to find a fitting translation in the dictionary for this one. Would anyone be able to explain what it means?)

Thanks!


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## ScapCai

Skatinginbc said:


> 一隻小鳥落lao4在樹上 ==> 遺留/遺棄
> 一隻小鳥落luo2在樹上 ==> 降到/掉到
> 丟三落四 ==> lao4 (遺留/遺棄)


丢三落四，念“la4“第四声。


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## ScapCai

yuechu said:


> "女子落海38小时奇迹生还"
> I read this sentence today on Decipher Chinese. It is pronounced luò here, right?
> Thanks!


Yes，It‘s "luo4" here!


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## ScapCai

yuechu said:


> and here, it is also pronounced luò, right?
> 
> 你的心，如果每天都*落*在那些是非、有无、来去、对错、你我之中，就永远得不到寂静。
> 每个人的世界，其实都是自己造就的，不应怨天尤人。
> 试着把那些“都是别人的错”的念头，换成“都是我的错”。
> 那么从反思，自省，改善自己的那一刻起。就是心寂静自在的时刻。
> (I think I kind of understand the meaning of 落 here from the context, but I can't seem to find a fitting translation in the dictionary for this one. Would anyone be able to explain what it means?)
> 
> Thanks!


Yes，your  pronunciation is right here . You may translate it into this " If your heart keeps being stuck on those things about right and wrong、coming and  leaving、owning and losing、you and me everyday, then you will never own the real calmness  in heart."


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## yuechu

OK! Thanks, ScapCai!


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