# Persian: The Rich vs The Poor



## Qureshpor

I am aware of the words توانگر and  درویش. The former is self explanatory in the sense that it is connected to "ability" and "strength" and hence "rich" but I never thought that درویش meant "poor". Are these words used with these meanings in the modern language or are these just classical usages?


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## eskandar

As far as I'm aware those are just classical usages (and even classically, درویش would be used metaphorically for 'poor' but not literally). Today it would be more common to say پولدار or ثروتمند for 'rich' and فقیر for 'poor'.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> As far as I'm aware those are just classical usages (and even classically, درویش would be used metaphorically for 'poor' but not literally). Today it would be more common to say پولدار or ثروتمند for 'rich' and فقیر for 'poor'.


 This is my feeling too! Morever, even in Urdu we'd use ثروتمند for 'rich' and فقیر for 'poor'. The alternative in Urdu for both would be to use امرا و فقرا_ umaraa wa fuqaraa_, where امرا  is the plural of امیر and  فقرا is the plural of فقیر . I don't think Persian uses _ umaraa wa fuqaraa_ to mean 'the rich vs. the poor / the rich and the poor'.


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## eskandar

That expression seems to exist in reverse order in Persian, that is, I found several examples by searching for "فقرا و امرا". However, I've never heard it, so I don't know how common it is. We definitely use فقرا commonly to refer to 'the poor' in general.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> That expression seems to exist in reverse order in Persian, that is, I found several examples by searching for "فقرا و امرا". However, I've never heard it, so I don't know how common it is. We definitely use فقرا commonly to refer to 'the poor' in general.


 Thanks! Good to know!


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## searcher123

Just one more addition: In modern Persian, درويش is a proper noun for one type of Sufis. The identification token of a *درويش* is his axe that always is on his shoulder.


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## eskandar

Morteza, have you heard امرا و فقرا used in Persian? Is it common?


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## searcher123

eskandar said:


> Morteza, have you heard امرا و فقرا used in Persian? Is it common?



Not in daily life or by ordinary people; just in books or old films and serials. Albeit as you told, فقرا is so common, but امرا alone or in combination with فقرا is not common in Modern Persian, however, if I want to use it, surely I will use it in the order of *Faylasoof* (i.e. امرا و فقرا). Because its rhythm is better and its pronunciation is easier.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> As far as I'm aware those are just classical usages (and even classically, درویش would be used metaphorically for 'poor' but not literally). Today it would be more common to say پولدار or ثروتمند for 'rich' and فقیر for 'poor'.



In the example below I do not believe the word "darvesh" is being used metaphorically. This is from Classical Persian.

و نیز از تونگران بستندے و بہ درویشان دادے و درویشان راپایمردی  کردے

And also he used to take it from the rich and give it to the poor and he would intercede on behalf of the poor.


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## eskandar

In that example, what indicates to you that درویش refers to the poor in general, and not darvishes (ie. a type of Sufi ascetic) specifically?


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> In that example, what indicates to you that درویش refers to the poor in general, and not darvishes (ie. a type of Sufi ascetic) specifically?



I suppose all I can say Eskandar SaaHib is that you will have to take my word for it. Short of providing a paragraph or two to give the full context, I don't know what else I can say....apart from that no sufi thought is being projected in the passage from where this is taken. Or anywhere else for that matter.

I have just thought of something, Eskandar SaaHib. You know that in English we say, "Charity begins at home". Well, the equivalent in Persian (which we use in Urdu and Punjabi) is "avval xvesh, ba3d darvesh". This also points to "darvesh" being needy/poor.


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## eskandar

QP SaaHeb, I am just wondering how much we can impose our contemporary understanding of "the poor" onto درویش (or, for that matter, فقیر) in a classical context. My feeling is that in the classical context "to give to the poor" or "to feed the needy", etc., would refer to charitable donations to communities of destitute, often ascetic, people most typically characterized as درویش or فقیر or ملنگ . In other words, "giving to the poor" meant giving to darvishes. Without having seen the textual context you're referring to, I can only guess, but it seems to make sense to me this way even if there are no direct references to Sufism.


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## Faylasoof

searcher123 said:


> Just one more addition: In modern Persian, درويش is a proper noun for one type of Sufis. The identification token of a *درويش* is his axe that always is on his shoulder.


 Interestingly searcher 123, this is how we use درويش in Urdu too. People used to call my grandfather a درويش not because he was poor - he was anything but poor (!) - but due to his piety, his simple habits (i.e. in food & attire) and him leading a very unostentatious life – he was in fact quite an ascetic! 

For most people in South Asia and particularly Urduphones the word درويش would indeed mean a kind of _sufi_ though for us the usage is perhaps broader as it includes people who may not really be following any Sufi order but behave like Sufi ascetics. 


QURESHPOR said:


> In the example below I do not believe the word "darvesh" is being used metaphorically. This is from Classical Persian.
> 
> و نیز از تونگران بستندے و بہ درویشان دادے و درویشان راپایمردی  کردے
> 
> And also he used to take it from the rich and give it to the poor and he would intercede on behalf of the poor.


 QP SaaHib, can you tell me the source of your quote above? I’m quite curious.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, can you tell me the source of your quote above? I’m quite curious.



taariix-i-Bal3amii (p16)


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## eskandar

I am curious too. Since the page numbers may be different in different editions of the book, would you mind giving the subheading or subtitle the passage you're looking at appears under?


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> I am curious too. Since the page numbers may be different in different editions of the book, would you mind giving the subheading or subtitle the passage you're looking at appears under?



زندگی نامه پیامبر) خبر قصی بن کلاب و قبیله قریش)


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> taariix-i-Bal3amii (p16)





QURESHPOR said:


> زندگی نامه پیامبر) خبر قصی بن کلاب و قبیله قریش)


 *سپاسگزارم*


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## eskandar

Thank you very much! When I have the text in front of me I'll have a look and see if the context affects my interpretation.


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## arsham

In Arabic too faqir has the same figurative meaning as darvish in Persian. In the classical texts, darvish is used in both senses except in Shahname where it only means poor.
Heree are other synonyms
rich: tavângar, por-mâye, por-xvâste (xvâste in middle persian and classical persian meant wealth), ghani 
poor: darvîsh/dariyûsh, kam-mâye, nâdâr, faqir, meskin, tohidast, tangdast
N.B. omarâ is the plural of amir! Not an exact translation for rich!


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## Qureshpor

arsham said:


> In Arabic too faqir has the same figurative meaning as darvish in Persian. In the classical texts, darvish is used in both senses except in Shahname where it only means poor.



faqiir in Urdu has the same connotations too. So, this confirms my interpretation of the word "darvesh" as "poor" in "taariix-i-Bal3amii" since, in terms of age, there is not much between the two texts.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> Thank you very much! When I have the text in front of me I'll have a look and see if the context affects my interpretation.



Do you have the complete text?


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## eskandar

Unfortunately at the moment all I have at my disposal is a selection of the text, which doesn't have the passage you're referring to. I hope to get access to the complete text soon.


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## Qureshpor

A better example from the same source (p15) is:

 اما این "رفاده" طعام دادن است که گفتیم که قصی هر سال حجاج را، توانگر و درویش، دو شب طعام دادے


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## arsham

QURESHPOR said:


> A better example from the same source (p15) is:
> 
> اما این "رفاده" طعام دادن است که گفتیم که قصی هر سال حجاج را، توانگر و درویش، دو شب طعام دادے



Indeed in this passage, darvîsh is used in the sense of "poor". Here is another passage from siyâsatnâme:
«tâ har ke râ dar mamlekat mâlî bûd o aspî o gholâmî o kanîzakî nîkû bûd o yâ molkî o zay'atî (with zâd meaning field) nîkû dâsht, hame bestad o ra'yat *darvîsh* gashtand ...»


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## Qureshpor

arsham said:


> Indeed in this passage, darvîsh is used in the sense of "poor". Here is another passage from siyâsatnâme:
> «tâ har ke râ dar mamlekat mâlî bûd o aspî o gholâmî o kanîzakî nîkû bûd o yâ molkî o zay'atî (with zâd meaning field) nîkû dâsht, hame bestad o ra'yat *darvîsh* gashtand ...»



Thank you, aaqaa-ye-arsham. So, it appears that "avval xvesh, ba3d darvesh" makes perfect sense in the context of the original meaning of the word.


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## arsham

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you, aaqaa-ye-arsham. So, it appears that "avval xvesh, ba3d darvesh" makes perfect sense in the context of the original meaning of the word.


Yes it does, "first you have to help yourself then the poor".


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## Qureshpor

arsham said:


> Yes it does, "first you have to help yourself then the poor".



Interesting. Your take on this implies, "Look after number one first" whereas I was taking the meaning to be "Help your own (poor) kith and kin first and then the (other) poor."


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## arsham

QURESHPOR said:


> Interesting. Your take on this implies, "Look after number one first" whereas I was taking the meaning to be "Help your own (poor) kith and kin first and then the (other) poor."



Well if you're in a bad shape yourself you cannot help any body!


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## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> (...) "avval xvesh, ba3d darvesh" (...)



چراغي را كه به خانه رواست، به مسجد حرام است


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## arsham

searcher123 said:


> چراغي را كه به خانه رواست، به مسجد حرام است



Exactly! I think this is a verse from Sa'di's golestân!


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