# Guitar?



## mojobadshah

There seems to be a discrepancy as to whether the word _guitar _is rooted in Persian or Greek.  The Greek etymology points to _kitara_, but if I'm not mistaken the affix -_tar_ doesn't have Greek cognates or am I wrong?  In any case according to the historical evidence the long neck stringed instrument traces back to Susa.  From what I understand _tar_ means "string" in Persian.  There is the _yektar_ "one string," _dotar_ "two string," _cetar_ "three string," _chartar_ (cf. Sp. _quatro_) "four string," _sheshtar _"guitar (minus the hollow body)."  Where could the prefix _gui_- have derived from in Persian?


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## Wolverine9

Actually, the more I think about it a borrowing from Persian _sitaar _is very unlikely despite what the reference*** says.  The Ancient Greek word dates from the 5th century BC if not earlier.  There is no evidence that an instrument such as _sitaar _existed in Persia at this time and the word _sitaar _certainly didn't exist in Old Persian.  It's safe to say the Greek term was borrowed from somewhere, but linguistically it can't be derived from the word _sitaar _or its hypothetical Old Persian antecedent.  The (Old/Middle/or New) Persian word for "three" wouldn't be borrowed into Greek as _ki_-, and the Old Persian equivalent of _taar _would be something similar to _tantra_-.
*___________________
*Moderator note: Meant is this; contained in deleted post above.*


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## origumi

There's a musical instrument (probably) mentioned in the Bible (Psalms), called _guitit_ (gitit). Its exact nature in unknown, string instrument is reasonable. So _guitar _(and its variants) may be an old and ubiquitous name, not necessarily of Greek or Persian origin.


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## fdb

The Old Iranian word for “three” is ϑri- : ϑray- : ϑrāy- (depending on the ablaut). There is no reason for ϑr- to become k-.


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## sotos

mojobadshah said:


> if I'm not mistaken the affix -_tar_ doesn't have Greek cognates or am I wrong?



How about _Cantharos_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*k%3Aentry+group%3D31%3Aentry%3Dka%2Fnqaros ) and γάδαρος (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...abetic+letter=*g:entry+group=1:entry=ga/daros). 

The correct transcription is _kithara_ (κιθάρα).


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## fdb

There is no reason to believe that the -thar- of κιθάρα or of κάνθαρος, or the -dar- of γάδαρος, are affixes. All of these words are of obscure etymology.


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## sotos

My hypothesis: The suffix seems to be -ara (not -thara) and is probably a variant of the common diminutive in ancient and new Gr. -arion, -aris etc. The stem _kith_- can be a form of the root that means "box" (from which κυτ-ίον), referring to the sound-box of the instrument. Many instruments take their name from their shape, e.g. Gr.  αυλός (lit. "tube"), tuba, άσκ-αυλος ("sack + tube"), corno etc.


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## fdb

κιθ- and κυτ- have only one sound in common in ancient Greek.


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## sotos

Expanding on the hypothesis of "κυτίον", there are some more words and toponyms which may support the connection with _κιθάρα_. There is the mountain Κιθαιρών, of unknown etymology, which sounds like _the place with "κίθαιρα" _whatever "κίθαιρα" might mean (similarly _Marathon = place with Μάραθα (plant's name_)).  Also there's the island Kythera. For the latter, it is assumed that it comes from the v. _κεύθω, _which also has the stem κυθ- (http://lsj.translatum.gr/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%8D%CE%B8%CF%89 )  and the meaning of "_close, cover, hide_", obviously related to κυτίον.  The difference in formal spelling (iotta vs. ypsilon) probably didn't reflect in pronounciation, in ancient as in new Greek. For the relation between  the sound "_ki-_" and "_close_" compare with the roman _chi-_ (_chiudere_ etc), originally from _clu_-.


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## berndf

sotos said:


> The difference in formal spelling (iotta vs. ypsilon) probably didn't reflect in pronounciation, in ancient as in new Greek.


What? Iotta any Ypsilon don't even sound remotely similar. You're really confusing classical and modern Greek here.


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## ireney

In fact upsilon was, if I'm not mistaken, the last to have its pronunciation changed to what it is today. Somewhere around the 11th century if I'm not mistaken?


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## nwon

From wiki: "The English word guitar, the German Gitarre, and the French guitare were adopted from the Spanish guitarra, which comes from the Andalusian Arabic قيثارة qitara, itself derived from the Latin cithara, which in turn came from the Ancient Greek κιθάρα kithara, and is thought to ultimately trace back to the Old Persian language Tar, which means string in Persian."


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## fdb

nwon said:


> and is thought to ultimately trace back to the Old Persian language Tar, which means string in Persian."



"is thought" means: this bit is nonsense.

An etymology that only explains half of a word is not an etymology. The experts on Greek etymology all agree that _kithara_ does not have a convincing explanation in any language and consign it to the vague category “pre-Greek”.

It is true that _tār_ means “string” in Modern Persian. We do not know what it was in Old Persian, but the Sanskrit cognate suggests that it had an _n_ in it (see no. 2).


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## ancalimon

Could there be a connection with Turkic "s_ā_z" ?  (some think it's from Persian while others think it's from Turkic)


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## sotos

ireney said:


> In fact upsilon was, if I'm not mistaken, the last to have its pronunciation changed to what it is today. Somewhere around the 11th century if I'm not mistaken?


You are possibly mistaken. Here says that about 1st c. AD  the Y and I were indistinguishable for some. http://archive.org/stream/historygreekalp00sophgoog#page/n117/mode/2up

This probably was happening earlier in some places (not necessarily in Greece) that's why U corresponds to I in some european languages (lux/licht).


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## berndf

sotos said:


> You are possibly mistaken. Here says that about 1st c. AD  the Y and I were indistinguishable for some. http://archive.org/stream/historygreekalp00sophgoog#page/n117/mode/2up
> 
> This probably was happening earlier in some places (not necessarily in Greece) that's why U corresponds to I in some european languages (lux/licht).


There war a gradual process in Greek of Ypsilon fronting from  via [ʉ] to [y]. The classical pronunciation was most likely [ʉ]. This is a sound somewhere in between French _t*ou*t_ and _t*u*_. In some English accents the _oo_ as in _food_ is pronounced this way. The complete fronting from [ʉ] to [y] happened as far as I know in Koine Greek. Unrounding from [y] to _ indeed started quite early but the process was completed only in the Byzantine period; in this respect ireney was right. In Vulgar Latin the pronunciation of <y> also changed to  but not in educated pronunciation. In Old English the letter <y> was used to transcribe the sound [y] that existed until the 10th or 11the century.

Lux vs. Licht is not an example of the process which led from  to  in Greek. The PIE origin was *lewk- and -ew- developed differently in Italic and Germanic languages. In German the original diphthong still exists in the related verb l*eu*chten. 

Unrounding of [y]/[ʏ] to /[ɪ] happened in other languages as well, not only in Greek. E.g. Old English hyll became hill in modern English but the process of creation of [y] was different than in Greek. In Germanic languages, like Old English, it originated from a process called i-mutation where <back vowel>+<consonant>+<i>  became <front vowel>+<consonant>. I-mutation explains, e.g., why the causative of to f*a*ll is to f*e*ll: In Proto-Germanic the causative suffix was -i- and you had *fallanaN = to fall and *fallianaN = to cause to fall. In English we find *fallanaN > fallan or feallan > fallen > fall and, through i-mutation, *fallianaN > fellan > fellen > fell. -- Back to u > y > i: we have PGm *hulliz becoming hyll in Old Englishthrough i-mutation which then became hill in Middle & Modern English through [y]-unrounding._


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## john welch

*Moderator note: Two threads on the same topic merged here.

*guitar (n.) 

1620s, ultimately from Greek _kithara_ "cithara," a stringed musical instrument related to the lyre, perhaps from Persian _sihtar_ (seesitar); the name reached English several times, including early 14c. _giterne_, from Old French, in reference to various stringed, guitar-like instruments; the modern word is directly from Spanish _guittara_ (14c.), which ultimately is from the Greek. The Arabic word is perhaps from Spanish or Greek, though often the relationship is said to be the reverse.
----
Sanskrit gita / githa means _song, singing. _Skr g(h) = Greek ch / k (h).
Could Indian songs include guitars?


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## mataripis

O yeah. I remember the persian word Tarang!


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## john welch

"Twang" is imitative.  Indian sitar rock-groups did the tarangan:


तरङ्ग*taraGga*gallopwaving aboutacross-goerjumping motionmoving to and fro


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## Cenzontle

A minor correction to





> Spanish _guittara (14c.)_


The doubled letter is R, not T, in all periods of Spanish.
It is typical of Spanish to avoid double consonants.  The only exceptions:  _rr_, _ll_, and—in Old Spanish—_ss_.
Well, also _cc_, when the letters represent different sounds, as in "acción".
P.S.:  I see that the spelling error is from the Online Etymology Dictionary, not from our colleague john welch.
PPS:  I notified the editor of the above dictionary, and—shazamm!—he made the correction.


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## john welch

I am not de-flated by a minor note.
Clearly, a Greek hearing a _sitar githa_ would pronounce_ kitara kitha-r-a_ ( as in Skr hima = Gr kima-r-a).
So a horn-pipe is a dance and instrument. Bass is instrument and singer. _Ensemble_ is a loan-word for existing instruments and players. Greeks knew brahmins singing the Bhagavad.


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## fdb

English guitar is borrowed from Spanish guitarra, which comes ultimately from Greek kithara, either via Latin cithara, or via Arabic qītār or qītāra. The origin of the Greek word is not clear (Beekes considers it pre-Greek), but it cannot possibly have anything to do with Sanskrit gīta- ‘song’, with which it has only the –ī- in common, nor with Persian si-tār ‘three strings’ (as suggested in etymonline).


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## john welch

Setar .. originated in Persia before the spread of Islam.[1]
*ABOUTINDIANMUSIC - Psycho Key*


 This tanbur developed from the Saz (Turkey) , *Sethar* (Iran), ..
The Indo-Greeks  disappeared ..10 AD .. probably remained for several centuries under  the Indo-Parthians and Kushans.[7]
The term 'zither' ( kithara) ...  the entire family of stringed instruments in which the strings do not extend beyond the sounding box. .. the hammered dulcimer, psaltery, Appalachian dulcimer, guqin, guzheng , tromba marina, koto, gusli, kantele, valiha,gayageum, đàn tranh, kanun, autoharp, santoor, yangqin, santur, swarmandal, . Pedal steel guitars, lap guitars, and keyboard instruments like the clavichord, harpsichord and piano .. the zither banjo.   The earliest known surviving instrument of the zither family is a Chinese guqin [a fretless instrument], found in the tomb of Marquis Yi of Zeng dating from 433 BC.[4]
Could you expand on why Skr _githa _has only -i-  in common with_ kithara_?
And why does "3 stringed"  have nothing to do with "stringed instrument"? 
 Is a 12 string guitar not a guitar?
sorry, these numerals refuse to delete.


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## berndf

john welch said:


> Could you expand on why Skr _githa _has only -i-  in common with_ kithara_?


Because, as fdb explained, the words are unrelated.



john welch said:


> Is a 12 string guitar not a guitar?


Unrelated words can be used for related things and related words can be used for unrelated things. Please don't confuse the two.


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## john welch

I will accept advice that this gita , Skr g is not the Gr k(h) of kithara, and the other letters, if that is the case. But fdb mentions the -i- phonetic  which is a different topic from semantics.   Phonetically is _sitar / sethar _expressed _kithara _in Gk?    Is _gita /githa _also Gk _kithara,_ phonetically?   Semantically :a wooden pipe is not a sailor but_ hornpipe _musical instrument was chosen for naming the _sailors' dance. _And human bass _singers_ accompany wooden bass _instruments_.
(*double bass*, also called *contrabass*, string *bass*, *bass ).*
.."the Greek word.. cannot possibly have anything to do  , .. with Persian si-tār ‘three strings’."
To gloss that : .."the Greek ( stringed instrument).. cannot possibly have anything to do , . with Persian si-tār ‘three strings’ ."  
That may be either phonetics or semantics but in both cases it appears wrong.
At the central meaning, the 3 strings and 2 vocal-chord larynx are similar .


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## mataripis

I read from a certain article that the gimel of Aramaic or Gamma of Greek were the origin of C.That C has the sound of K, Se and  th  when written as cci as in Lekh- thion of Spanias.The Greeks Don't have C but G and K.The Indian language has C as Ch .Same with Bahasa and Languages near India. If Tarang is string of an instrument, the G and K and S that was become part of it produced Sitar, Kithara,Gitarra and possibly the English Chant was coint from those words. The strings produce sounds and I thing rang in Tarang is sound not the number of strings.strings or whole instrument with strings both produce Rang or sound.And for me that word is about sound producing object or instrument.


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## fdb

Actually, I was wrong when I suggested that Greek κιθάρα and Sanskrit gīta- “have only the –ī- in common”. κιθάρα has a short /i/; the /a/ is part of the root in Greek, but a thematic vowel in Sanskrit, so actually the two words have nothing in common at all. Let me add that Persian sitār is NEW Persian and cannot be the source of a Greek word that is attested at least from the time of Herodotus. The Old Iranian word for “three-stringed” would have been something like *ϑri-tāra-. ϑr- does not become /k/ in Greek.


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## john welch

Sadly for me , in Javanese there is _sitar_ and _gita _as in Hindi /Skr. No gitar . So the ngurungita _tribal headman _in Australia would be nagara ne gita_ country. posessive. singer.  _No guitar_._


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## origumi

Hebrew Guittit גִּתִּית is supposedly a musical instrument of the 1st Temple and appears 3 times in the Hebrew bible (Psalms 8:1, 81:1, 84:1). I don't think its meaning is fully agreed, same about its etymology. So this may be relevant or not to the thread.


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## john welch

From # 28 : " in Javanese there _is __sitar and gita __as in Hindi /Skr. No gitar ".
But I was wrong .  Javanese does have *gitar* : guitar. So they made the homonym link into a synonym._


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