# History: Should contemporary Germans feel guilty about the Nazis ?



## cherine

I'm quoting a rather long post that astonished my a lot. (I highlited the parts that are, for me, even more shocking)


			
				Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> In my opinion Germany is the country where the possibility of a second Hitler to appear is the lowest. *We grow up feeling guilty*, we go to france to school exchanges and they throw stones on us calling us Nazis, we go to Spain and they shout "Heil Hitler", and we have the feeling they have the right to do that, even if we (my generation and that of my parents) never were involved in any war, in any form of racism, in anything.
> Germany is more democratic than many other countries of our western civilization, and *there's plenty of programmes to pay our guilt*... every year at school history lessons, german lessons, religion lessons,... come up with the Nazis, always telling us we're the bad ones. *We learned to feel guilty*, we learned that we don't have the right to participate in "whose country is better"-games people sometimes like to play for the fun of it...


I never thought that Germans (considered by many as a great people; hard workers, highly organized, smart....) should feel guilty about things _*some*_ of their ancestors did quite a long time ago.
It reminded my of that thread about the invaders/invaded thread, but here I'm only talking about Germans. I/my people wasn't/were not of the Nazis' victims, but I know about the horrors they did to millions of people.
Still, I think it's very unfair to hold modern Germans responsibles -even in an indirect way- for what was done by their rulers more than fifty years ago. It's totally unfair to raise your children with such a huge feeling of guilt for something they weren't even there when it was done.

How come that a nation, which could rebuild itself from ashes, not feel proud of its acheivement, let alone its History -not the recent one of course- but feel guily of horrors commited by its criminal rulers.
What do you foer@s think ?

P.S. I'm sorry if my question offend anyone, but I'm really curious about this.
P.P.S. Any corrections are, of course, most welcome.


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## Dr. Quizá

Then... should you be proud what your ancestors did? Only if it still remains as an advantage.

I don't see why one should feel guilty for what hasn't done nor supported (specially after making an effort in the opposite way).


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## cherine

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Then... should you be proud what your ancestors did? Only if it still remains as an advantage.


Very good point Docteur  I think it's much more easy to be proud -than to feel guilty- of other people's deeds 
But let's discuss the guilt thing first, then maybe we can discuss the unmeritted pride in another thread


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## gjou

I say no, frankly.
People are not responsible for what their ancestors have done, and I denounce the current trend to ask nations to apologize for everything:
slavery, genocides, wars, and so on.
We have to know our history, and to look at it, but neither with a feeling of guiltiness nor a feeling of grievance.
But we must not forget what happened, otherwise we will commit the same mistakes, again and again..


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## natasha2000

I heard about this, too. It seems that in Germany, from very young age, and beggining with the end of th eWWII, children are constantly told about the horrors their ancestors did. As amatter of fact, I wouldn't even say ansecstors, since not all Germans were Nazis. It is very well known that Hitler cleansed first Germany of opposition, and then started his ride to world conquest....

But after the war, in order to prevent any germ of future reptetition of what nazis were and did, children are taught to have that ridiculous guilt. I have a German friend from very long time ago, and I spoke with him this subject very often, especially in the last 15 years, when I had the similar experience, feeling guilty because of what some other Serbs did... On the other hand, my brother studied in Germany, and he was amazed with the enormosity of guilt modern Germans still have....

It is stupid. It is senseless. Germans have many many other characteristics to be proud of and also to be ashamed of, as any other nation in this world. Besides, we shouldn't forget that (I repeat myself here) NOT ALL Germans were Nazis, and many Germans were killed by Nazis, too.

As Always, generalizing is VERY dangerous thing to do....


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## Fernando

1) Well, some Germans are still alive from those who entered into the WWII. The youngest (enlisted) fighter will currently be in his 70s, while actual responsibles will be around 85.

2) I think there is a limit for apologies. I certainly would have demanded apologies from the Germans after the war (they did apologise), but 60 years after is enough.

I am not sure about the cases when the involved country has never apologised and we are still close to the facts.

3) Those who are proud of Beethoven, Leibinitz, Goethe or Clausewitz should feel some shame for Hitler and his mariachi. They should examine how the German culture (if there is such a thing) could produce the best and the worst.

Maybe all Europeans/Westerners (humans?) should examine it.


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## cirrus

For me it is not just a question of should Germans feel guilty about what was done under the Nazi banner but *all* of us as human beings should be aware of how easily humans can forget their own humanity.  Genocide makes us all base - both those who commit it and those of us who do nothing active to prevent it.

I think there are aspects of guilt (or should I say shame?) which can have a useful role.  It shows that you feel some sort of remorse for what has happened.  It also indicates a level of acknowledgement.  If you then do something constructive  with it - you are moving on from paralysis.  

As result of the acknowledgement that much that the Nazis did was deeply wrong, over the last 60 years Germany has completely turned around.  It is now unquestionably a solidly democratic state and has been a huge motor for European integration which arguably makes a future war at the heart of Europe impossible.  The German state is based on fundamental respect for a common code of human rights.  For me this shows that good can come out of guilt and an awareness of our shared history.


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## Brioche

Should contemporary Germans who were once citizens of the DDR/East Germany feel guilty about the Stasi [State Security Service]?

Should contemporary Russians feel guilty about the NKVD, KGB, the Gulags, the purges of Stalin, Katyn Forest?

Should contemporary Chinese feel guilty about the Cultural Revolution, and the 70 million or so deaths caused by Mao Zedong?

Which of us should feel guilty about the current slaughter and rape in the Darfur region of Sudan?


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## ireney

I was more surprised with how (according to the post that Cherine quoted that is) people from other nationalities react to the Germans. Shame to those who act like this!

I am also surprised that they are taught to feel guilt. That is unacceptable.

Should they feel guilty? No, they shouldn't. I don't think it is possible to avoid that after learning (as we all do) what the Nazis did nor is it possible (according to those Germans I know) not to wonder (and some times try to rationalize) how on Earth did such a big portion of the German population followed that madman.

But guilt has to end somewhere. Whenever I read or recall some of the things my ancestors did (up to and including ancient History) I do feel ashamed and a bit guilty. It is unavoidable to a person with conscience.
But it is not a sense of personal guilt nor do I think I have to do something to make up for what they did (I guess things would be different if -for example- we had invaded somewhere and this place was still under our rule or if my country had never admitted/apologized for an atrocity of the past).

But Germans are not freaks. They don't need special tutoring to feel guilty. This is a horrible practice that should stop. Same goes for any anti-German actions such as those described in the aforementioned quote


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## Sepia

I aggree in a lot of things that are been said here, but one thing that annoys me is that just as not all Germans were Nazis, not all other nationalities were Anti-Nazis. As a German with non-German parents I feel very well entitled to point my finger on this fact: Hitler and his Nazis had considerable support among the citizens of the countries they occupied as well. Should they have succeeded in occupying Sweden or Great Britain I am convinced that vast numbers of Nazis would have come out of the woodwork in those countries too. 

Does anyone feel responsible for them?

Did anyone discuss if they did right or wrong?

Does anyone in those countries sound an imaginary alarm signal when young people go "paki-bashing" or extreme.right-wing populist parties get elected into parlaments or even form coalitions with their governments?


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## Krümelmonster

Well, what you said about Nazi supporters outside Germany reminded me of something my history teacher once said about Austria, who was only very little blamed for their role in the Nazi times. She said: "The Austrians are really clever people, for they made the whole world believe that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler was German..."


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## Fernando

Agreed. They claim the Anschluss was just an invasion. Anyway there is a strong Austrian movement claiming they should feel guilty also. The Waldheim case arose a lot of controversy.


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## fenixpollo

ireney said:
			
		

> I was more surprised with how (according to the post that Cherine quoted that is) people from other nationalities react to the Germans. Shame to those who act like this!
> 
> I am also surprised that they are taught to feel guilt. That is unacceptable.


 Not only are many Germans taught to feel guilt, but people from other countries are taught to think less of the Germans for what happened in the Nazi era.  The children are taught all of this "lest we forget" the injustices, the atrocities, etc.; and German society is viewed as tainted -- after all, it's the culture where Naziism was allowed to happen. But the irony, for me, is that the British, French and Spanish cultures (and American, among others), are the cultures where this kind of hatred is allowed to happen.

The message? That we should not forget our own humanity -- not only when we think that we are all capable of what was perpetrated during the Nazi era; but also that in our _reaction_ to those events, we may also be guilty of the same intolerace, hatred and disrespect for other humans.


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## Jana337

I too am uncomfortable about the German guilt. The recent German history is one of my hobbies, and I also enjoy studying its current repercussions, so I think I am quite familiar with the topic.

One of the weirdest situations I have ever experienced was a question by a German who happened to be aware of my family history: "So, how do you feel in the country of those who did _it_?" (Land der Täter)

He was in his mid-30s and I obviously did not think I was _im Land der Täter_. I adore the language, I love the country, it felt like home when I lived there and I have been hankering after Berlin ever since.

And yet, he felt compelled to bring up the question, to receive a rebuke for something that happened long before he was born. I wish Germans would find a more balanced attitude to the history of their country.

That being said, I wouldn't want to see the World War II relegated to just another major war in the school curricula. I appreciate that all German students, by and large, visit a concentration camp in their teens. I don't think, however, that it should be a German specialty. It would be very beneficial for every European to have to come to grips with the evil during the formative years.

Germany is a solidly democratic country but, as in all democracies, there are extremist groups. For a citizen of an adjacent country, it is quite reassuring to see that a vast majority of Germans is genuinely appalled at their rant.

Jana


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## Bettie

I don't think they should, but people don't let them forgive themselves for something that they didn't do! It's so sad that some people think that all germans are still nazis, when they never were... I mean even in that time not of them were and for sure they still are some but I don't think that more than here in the U.S. that the Neo-Nazi Movement is getting stronger.
So I think that we shouldn't forget so this won't happen again, but whe should stop putting blame in people that don't have any.


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## Krümelmonster

Most of the "Neo-Nazis" here in Germany are frustrated youths without much future... and sometimes I wonder if they are a result of us being prohibited to be proud of our country. 
There are many examples of youths being proud in their country without doing any harm, for example a spanish friend of mine who always wants to compare "who's country is better" by comparing Schumacher and Alonso... or people who just like to sing songs about Asturias, their beloved patria or hang a flag in their car... or portuguese who are angry when you talk to them in spanish, even if they could understand it, just because they love their own language and don't want to hear it's "swabian spanish" or something like that... I think this is silly, but it's not bad to love your country... You see what I try to say?

I mean, perhaps all those Neonazis are just longing for something to be proud of, and they think they have to reach back to Hitler in a time where being proud wasn't prohibited... and they have to get the extreme because you can't find people with a normal amount of pride here.

Just some little thought...


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## Bettie

It's very sad that you can be sad of your country, specially germans, I mean, I was in Berlin and I was amazed of how you rebuilt the city, everything is so organized and beautiful and people were so nice with me and to me, I really loved Berlin and its people.


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## natasha2000

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Most of the "Neo-Nazis" here in Germany are frustrated youths without much future... and sometimes I wonder if they are a result of us being prohibited to be proud of our country.
> .......................
> I mean, perhaps all those Neonazis are just longing for something to be proud of, and they think they have to reach back to Hitler in a time where being proud wasn't prohibited... and they have to get the extreme because you can't find people with a normal amount of pride here.
> 
> Just some little thought...


 
Noooo, Krümelmonster, don't fool yourself. 

Neo-nazis, in Germany and in all other countries, do not seek a countru to be proud of, but someone to blame for their miserable lives. As you said, neo-nazis (again, not only in Germany, but in all other countries where they exist) they are just a bunch of loosers, unemployed, drug addicted and usually psychopatic and violent. They all come from very poor and marginal backgrounds, usually with a criminal record in the police. They are rejected by the society, and of course, they must blame someone. If you noticed, neo-nazis exist in developed countries - like Spain or the USA. What these countries have? Very big flow of immigration. Who is usually the victim of neo-nazis in these countries? All no-white immigrants, and sometimes, white ones too, just for being immigrants, but mostly they are non-white, whether they are immigrants or not.  They blame immigrant for coming to their country and taking them away their jobs. Well, some reason they must have in order to "justify" fercious attacks they do.
On the other hand, there are also some neo-nazi movements in some not so developed countries, even in those countries that suffered from the very same nazis, some Slavic countries, although they are very weak and unsignificant. Their target is usually Gipsies, since they are the only ones who at least seem to be of different race... Sad and stupid, but true. Slavs were another big victim of nazis concentration camps. when you see all the facts, it's just.... Delusional!

No, neo-nazi movement does not have anything to do with being proud of your country. Look, the USA and Spain, their citizens are usually very proud of their countries, and yet, they also have very strong skinhead neo-nazi movements. The only thing they have in common is that all of them are a bunch of loosers who just seek for someone to blame for their unsuccessful life, being cowards to face with reality and do something about it.


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## maxiogee

If anyone thinks today's Germans ought to feel guilt about the Nazis I'd be interested to hear why. I'd also be interested to hear at what point in history they would allow a nation to stop feeling guilt.
Many modern nations were founded on cruelty, slaughter, slavery, exploitation and other forms of nasty behaviour. This is not something for which current generations have any need to feel guilt.

However, all nations need to be aware of the things their ancestors did - as we humans can tend to let "distance lend enchantment to the view" when we look over our shoulders. It's all very well for those countries which were victims of the Nazis to be aware (if they are) of why the Nazis were able to come to power, and why they did what they did, but it is vitally important that everyone, victim contries especially, should be aware that like-minded groups can and do spring up in countries at times of turmoil and unheeded protests from the underprivileged - the fascist types who flocked to Hitler in Germany had counterparts in many countries - and not just in Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain. There was Mosely in Britain, O'Duffy in Ireland (he even sent a contingent to fight for Franco in the Spanish Civil War (with, of course, the approval of the Irish Catholic Church. France was not without its willing collaborators, nor were Norway or other countries.


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## natasha2000

No nation in this world can say: We never made any atrocities. Not even one.
I think that what is really important is not to seek guilt and especially not in new generations, but NOT FORGET. Humanity cannot permit a luxury to FORGET all atrocities a human being was able to inflict to a fellow being, just because of different color of the skin, or language, or religion, or poltical view, because the other one was rich, or the other one was poor, and sometimes not even that, but simply, just because they felt like it. As a matter of fact, I think that all thas nacionalist, racist, religious etc. blah blah is only invented to cover the real reasons for extermination of others - economical one. Why Hitler proclaimed Jews as enemy? Because the Jews were those who had money in Germany of those times of dreadful economic crisis. Why did Bush attack Iraq? Why does Guantanomo exist? NOT because of his love towards democracy... No, my dears. It's because of oil. That is why he invented that never-found biological wapons...
So, I think that in Germany, and all other countries, adults should start to teach children to love otherness, to wake up and intrigue curiosity for differencies, so children grow up in adults who are eager to GET KNOW other cultures they don't know, and not TO BE AFRAID of them just because they are unknown or different, instead of feeding the feeling of guilt for something that is sooooo far away from them.


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## djchak

The answer to the original question is NO. 

With that being said, the Germans should not accuse other peoples/countries of being "Nazis" either.

WW2 was an awful war, and many people should learn from it, but each war has differing circumstances. They are not all the same.


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## ukuca

I think, if one should feel guilty about their past national crimes against humanity, the Germans are not the only ones. There are several nations who has suffered from similar extinction actions or alike cruel and inhuman treatments. I can count America's nuclear attacks to Japan, extinction of Indians or what happened in Yugoslavia, etc.. 

There's one discussion nowadays about Turkey and its action against Armenians in 1915. I don't know very much about it whether it is true or not (because in Turkey, it's nearly impossible saying so!!). All the information we get is single-sided. I would say that if it is true, I would feel ashamed (but not guilty because I didn't do it) for my country because I'm a member and a part of it.


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## maxiogee

djchak said:
			
		

> but each war has differing circumstances. They are not all the same.



I'd disagree with that. Every war is caused by people wanting things they shouldn't want and don't have a right to. People who don't and won't talk and aren't prepared to listen.
That there are two sides to a war is a given - neither of them talking or listening.
They are all the same in that old people send young people to do their fighting, don't seem to care who gets hurt, and then lie about the process to anyone they think will believe them.


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## fenixpollo

o said:
			
		

> If anyone thinks today's Germans ought to feel guilt about the Nazis I'd be interested to hear why. I'd also be interested to hear at what point in history they would allow a nation to stop feeling guilt.


If someone did argue that, Tony, then one could argue that anyone with German ancestry should also feel guilty. _Will all of the Schmidts of the world please stand up?_

Of course, we should feel as guilty for the actions of the Nazis as we should the actions of the Neo-Nazis. Natasha, I disagree with some of your assertions about Neo-Nazis: 





			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Neo-nazis, in Germany and in all other countries, do not seek a countru to be proud of,
> As marginalized people, they tend to have a poor self-image and are looking for ways to feel proud of themselves.
> 
> but someone to blame for their miserable lives. As you said, neo-nazis (again, not only in Germany, but in all other countries where they exist) they are just a bunch of loosers, unemployed, drug addicted and usually psychopatic and violent.
> There is no link between Neo-nazis and drugs or mental illness. Their violence is usually a lifestyle choice, not a psychological disorder.
> 
> They all come from very poor and marginal backgrounds, usually with a criminal record in the police. They are rejected by the society, and of course, they must blame someone. If you noticed, neo-nazis exist in developed countries - like Spain or the USA. What these countries have? Very big flow of immigration. Who is usually the victim of neo-nazis in these countries? All no-white immigrants, and sometimes, white ones too, just for being immigrants, but mostly they are non-white, whether they are immigrants or not. They blame immigrant for coming to their country and taking them away their jobs. Well, some reason they must have in order to "justify" fercious attacks they do.
> On the other hand, there are also some neo-nazi movements in some not so developed countries, even in those countries that suffered from the very same nazis, some Slavic countries, although they are very weak and unsignificant. Their target is usually Gipsies, since they are the only ones who at least seem to be of different race... Sad and stupid, but true. Slavs were another big victim of nazis concentration camps. when you see all the facts, it's just.... Delusional!
> 
> No, neo-nazi movement does not have anything to do with being proud of your country. Look, the USA and Spain, their citizens are usually very proud of their countries, and yet, they also have very strong skinhead neo-nazi movements.
> But isn't that a correlation? Is it merely coincidence that countries with a high degree of patriotism also foster Neo-nazis? I'm not saying that there is a relationship between the two, but that doesn't mean that there isn't.
> 
> The only thing they have in common is that all of them are a bunch of loosers who just seek for someone to blame for their unsuccessful life, being cowards to face with reality and do something about it.


 _Disclaimer: I'm not defending anyone associated with Naziism, present or past._


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## djchak

ukuca said:
			
		

> I think, if one should feel guilty about their past national crimes against humanity, the Germans are not the only ones. There are several nations who has suffered from similar extinction actions or alike cruel and inhuman treatments. I can count America's nuclear attacks to Japan, extinction of Indians or what happened in Yugoslavia, etc..
> 
> There's one discussion nowadays about Turkey and its action against Armenians in 1915. I don't know very much about it whether it is true or not (because in Turkey, it's nearly impossible saying so!!). All the information we get is single-sided. I would say that if it is true, I would feel ashamed (but not guilty because I didn't do it) for my country because I'm a member and a part of it.



Should Americans born after WW2 or Vietnam be feel guilty about being Americans?

What would it accomplish?

Is the desired result the absence of war? So...there's no war but everyone feels miserable and guilty?

Did the "Indians" feel guilty for making extinct other "Indian" tribes before the Europeans came to the Americas?

Not all wars are exactly the same. They might have similar aspects, but each is specific. You can't compare WW2 to Gulf War 2. 

The more we question, the more answers and facts we find out, the more we communicate...the LESS we will need to use war.... that's my opinion.

Guilt by itself will not prevent war.


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## maxiogee

djchak said:
			
		

> You can't compare WW2 to Gulf War 2.



Can't or shouldn't?

I'd argue with both strictures, and I don't believe I'm the only one who would.


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## fenixpollo

djchak said:
			
		

> Should Americans born after WW2 or Vietnam be feel guilty about being Americans?
> Only if the unethical behavior perpetrated in those conflicts that Americans feel guilty for is continuing today and those Americans are doing nothing about it.
> 
> What would it accomplish?
> Guilt can be a motivator for people to take action and make a change.
> 
> Is the desired result the absence of war? So...there's no war but everyone feels miserable and guilty?
> Sounds like a good tradeoff to me. False logic, anyway, because if that were true, then since there is war, those of us not currently in a war should feel happy and guilt-free.
> 
> Did the "Indians" feel guilty for making extinct other "Indian" tribes before the Europeans came to the Americas?
> Please back up this supposition with one documented example of an Indian tribe eradicating another.
> 
> Not all wars are exactly the same. They might have similar aspects, but each is specific. You can't compare WW2 to Gulf War 2.
> Yes you can. War is war. There are no wars that are more justifiable or less deadly than others... it's just a matter of degrees.
> 
> The more we question, the more answers and facts we find out, the more we communicate...the LESS we will need to use war.... that's my opinion.
> 
> Guilt by itself will not prevent war.


 Once again, all is right with the world, since I disagree with you, chak.


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## Seana

Hello Krümelmonster,
When I was reading you post I felt very moved by it and I had decided to write something because it is maybe little 'taboo' topic between our countries.
Poland was very battered during the WWII. Additionally we were innocent victims of this war even after the war - the communism - it was a terrible state difficult to describe or depict it we were separated from all rest of world and all who doesn't know our horrible facts for years would not imagine it. Of course that time average people didn't die but it had been dying our country, sovereignty, economics, discontinuity of the generation tradition, religion and customs, we were overcome by a sense of hopelessness, dullness and despair... being finally lost generation. Being locked up and fed on propaganda we were shown loads of films about the WWII what could be supposed probably to hold our hate to Germans. 
However the purpose hasn't achieved. Poles respect Germans for their perfections, the technical culture ect. but some splinter into our hearts stayed, it is a natural it couln't be differently. But believe me nobody I know has prejudice against young Germans, nobody thinks that they should be responsible for their ancestors mistakes, moreover I think that you should not live with a sense of guilt, you cannot be embarrassed of your national identity, because just dissatisfaction, suppressing natural behaviours could be a cause of frustration and just frustration... could be most often a cause of the worst actions.

Greetings


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## natasha2000

Originally Posted by *natasha2000*
_Neo-nazis, in Germany and in all other countries, do not seek a country to be proud of, _
_As marginalized people, they tend to have a poor self-image and are looking for ways to feel proud of themselves._
_But they only feel proud if there is someone they can consider lower and worse than themselves. Their existence lies on BEING SUPERIOR than someone else, not BEING GOOD. If there is nobody to be SUPERIOR from, they do not find the sense in their existence._

_but someone to blame for their miserable lives. As you said, neo-nazis (again, not only in Germany, but in all other countries where they exist) they are just a bunch of loosers, unemployed, drug addicted and usually psychopatic and violent. _
_There is no link between Neo-nazis and drugs or mental illness. Their violence is usually a lifestyle choice, not a psychological disorder._
_Not all drug adicts or mentally ill people are neo-nazis. But all neo-nazis are or drug adicts or mentally ill people, mostly psycopaths. No being of healthy mind can think as they think._

_They all come from very poor and marginal backgrounds, usually with a criminal record in the police. They are rejected by the society, and of course, they must blame someone. If you noticed, neo-nazis exist in developed countries - like Spain or the USA. What these countries have? Very big flow of immigration. Who is usually the victim of neo-nazis in these countries? All no-white immigrants, and sometimes, white ones too, just for being immigrants, but mostly they are non-white, whether they are immigrants or not. They blame immigrant for coming to their country and taking them away their jobs. Well, some reason they must have in order to "justify" fercious attacks they do._
_On the other hand, there are also some neo-nazi movements in some not so developed countries, even in those countries that suffered from the very same nazis, some Slavic countries, although they are very weak and unsignificant. Their target is usually Gipsies, since they are the only ones who at least seem to be of different race... Sad and stupid, but true. Slavs were another big victim of nazis concentration camps. when you see all the facts, it's just.... Delusional!_

_No, neo-nazi movement does not have anything to do with being proud of your country. Look, the USA and Spain, their citizens are usually very proud of their countries, and yet, they also have very strong skinhead neo-nazi movements. _
_But isn't that a correlation? Is it merely coincidence that countries with a high degree of patriotism also foster Neo-nazis? I'm not saying that there is a relationship between the two, but that doesn't mean that there isn't._
_This statement o yours can be discussed... And I am sure that I am almost sure that I would agree with you on this. But.... I was saying this because of other thing. I was just trying to show to Krümelmonster that he was wrong when he said:_




> ...perhaps all those Neonazis are just longing for something to be proud of, and they think they have to reach back to Hitler in a time where being proud wasn't prohibited... and they have to get the extreme because you can't find people with a normal amount of pride here.



_As he was trying to find the reason of existence of neonazis in Germany in being prohibited to be proud of their nation, I just pointed out that there are also nations who are extremely proud of their countries, and it is NOT prehibited to be in those countries, yet they also have neonazis... Now... If national proudness and existence of neonazis is connected or not... That's another topic, which if you want, we can elaborate...._



_The only thing they have in common is that all of them are a bunch of loosers who just seek for someone to blame for their unsuccessful life, being cowards to face with reality and do something about it. _
_Disclaimer: I'm not defending anyone associated with Naziism, present or past._

_Nobody was saying nor thinking you're doing it._

Fenix, here are my answers....


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## Pivra

Do you think the American media is to be blamed for this? Why can't they start depicting the good aspects of Germany? The movie EuroTrip is one of the examples.


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## fenixpollo

> but someone to blame for their miserable lives. As you said, neo-nazis (again, not only in Germany, but in all other countries where they exist) they are just a bunch of loosers, unemployed, drug addicted and usually psychopatic and violent.
> There is no link between Neo-nazis and drugs or mental illness. Their violence is usually a lifestyle choice, not a psychological disorder.[/I]
> _Not all drug adicts or mentally ill people are neo-nazis. But all neo-nazis are or drug adicts or mentally ill people, mostly psycopaths. No being of healthy mind can think as they think._


_ This statement is totally false... unless you can produce facts to support it. While many Neo-Nazis may have psychological problems, and many use drugs, none of them that I have ever met fit either of those descriptions. 

You are overgeneralizing, assuming and mis-stating the problem as heinously as krumelmonster, with his mistaken belief that neo-nazism comes from a desire for a national pride that has been robbed by communal guilt. In calling them all addicts and psychos, you prevent us from addressing the real cause, which is that neo-nazism is a belief system that is taught -- not a mental illness._


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## Everness

cherine said:
			
		

> I never thought that Germans (considered by many as a great people; hard workers, highly organized, smart....) should feel guilty about things _*some*_ of their ancestors did quite a long time ago.



Guilt doesn't belong to the club of the negative emotions. Some guilt is good. It allows us to acknowledge that we did something bad, make amends, and hopefully avoid doing it again. In that sense guilt is a positive and healthy emotion. Too much guilt is unhealthy because it's paralyizing and eventually it turns into shame. People feel guilty for what they do but shameful for what they are. 

If what Krümelmonster feels represents what most Germans feel, we have a serious problem. By the way, I don't think it's unhealthy for people to feel guilty for things their ancestors did. It's a way of integrating our collective past into our present collective identity. The fact that our generation didn't do it, doesn't mean that those behaviors have nothing to do with us and that we can disown them. 

Apparently some of us want to be picky. "Let's just remember and be proud of the good things our ancestors did but let's forget and avoid feeling guilty for the bad things they did." 

We have to claim and own our entire past with its good and bad things.


----------



## GenJen54

Pivra said:
			
		

> Do you think the American media is to be blamed for this? Why can't they start depicting the good aspects of Germany? The movie EuroTrip is one of the examples.


I just can't connect the dots here. Perhaps you can provide some examples. I can't seem to come up with one, unless you are talking about something such as "Schindler's List," which was not about making the current Germans "feel guilty" as much as it was telling one man's story of what he did during the holocaust. It was a story told by a jew who knew people who had survived some of the camps.

It's not like our news reporters go around looking for stories on how to portray the Germans as bad people. They don't. They've got too many other stories to focus on.  

Many Americans tend to focus their feelings regarding WWII more on the French and what the American troops did to liberate them from Hitler's regime.  We're reasonable enough people to recognize that current Germans had nothing to do with the Hitler situation.  We still have our own guilt burdens to carry from our sad history of slavery, which we're reminded of much more often, and the ghosts of which still haunt our very culture.  Some still also carry our own guilt complex about what we did to the Native Americans, too.

I know people like to blame the "American media" on many, many things, but imposed guilt over the Hitler situation? More than fifty years after the fact? Please.


----------



## .   1

> It's not like our news reporters go around looking for stories on how to portray the Germans as bad people. They don't. They've got too many other stories to focus on.


 Hello Pivra
It is possible that this is a red herring in that the news medium concentrates almost exclusively on the BAD news and controversy.
I no longer watch the news on television or read newspapers because I am sick and tired of seeing stories that are almost always twisted beyond any connection to truth or accuracy.
Most stories that are portrayed about any country seem to be quite biased toward sensationalism and I doubt if any thought is given to the zeig heil brigade at all.
I have just watched a parody of current affairs reporting that reveals many tricks used to twist stories.  The Show is Australian and is called Frontline but I suspect that this is a copy of an overseas show.  It may be worth a look as it reveals the workings of power in much the same manner as Yes Minister.

.,,


----------



## Layzie

I saw the German movie downfall, and it seemed to place the blame on hitler and persuade the viewer to sympathize with the German people. People get deluded all the time. If half my country voted for bush, then it just goes to show that people will always mistakingly follow. The Germans have nothing to be ashamed about.


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## Pivra

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I just can't connect the dots here. Perhaps you can provide some examples. I can't seem to come up with one, unless you are talking about something such as "Schindler's List," which was not about making the current Germans "feel guilty" as much as it was telling one man's story of what he did during the holocaust. It was a story told by a jew who knew people who had survived some of the camps.
> 
> It's not like our news reporters go around looking for stories on how to portray the Germans as bad people. They don't. They've got too many other stories to focus on.
> 
> Many Americans tend to focus their feelings regarding WWII more on the French and what the American troops did to liberate them from Hitler's regime. We're reasonable enough people to recognize that current Germans had nothing to do with the Hitler situation. We still have our own guilt burdens to carry from our sad history of slavery, which we're reminded of much more often, and the ghosts of which still haunt our very culture. Some still also carry our own guilt complex about what we did to the Native Americans, too.
> 
> I know people like to blame the "American media" on many, many things, but imposed guilt over the Hitler situation? More than fifty years after the fact? Please.


 
 Have you watched Eurotrip? There are many more things about Germany to make jokes of, but why Hitler?


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## MarcB

Hi Forer@s
To Cherine was El Alamein not in Egypt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Alamein
Most people were affected n one way or another by that war. Several years ago I heard victims and their descendants blame Germany for the evils of the war. The further away we get from the war and the fewer living victims the sooner we forget. I think we can not forget the ills of the past, least we repeat them.  But I do not hold accountable people who were not yet born (the sins of the father). People should, no, must reconcile their differences and grow. So let’s forgive the sons of the fathers yet not forget nor dismiss the fathers for their role


----------



## .   1

> There are many more things about Germany to make jokes of, but why Hitler?


I am not familiar with the movie and I do not know what type of jokes were used but it is my opinion that we should laugh at every power crazed fool we can.
We should hold every cross-eyed moron with a wrinkled forehead who wants to rule the world up for public ridicule at every opportunity.
Mel Brooks has carved a career out of really bad nazi jokes and openly holds the view that dictators hate to be laughed at so this is why he does it and I totally agree with him.

.,,


----------



## Pivra

. said:
			
		

> I am not familiar with the movie and I do not know what type of jokes were used but it is my opinion that we should laugh at every power crazed fool we can.
> We should hold every cross-eyed moron with a wrinkled forehead who wants to rule the world up for public ridicule at every opportunity.
> Mel Brooks has carved a career out of really bad nazi jokes and openly holds the view that dictators hate to be laughed at so this is why he does it and I totally agree with him.
> 
> .,,


I remember bunch of people in my class were laughing in Romeo and Juliet when one of the lines says 

" Come hither.." they said, come Hitler. lol Luckily there were no German exchanged students in our class but I am not sure about other classes.


----------



## Krümelmonster

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I just can't connect the dots here. Perhaps you can provide some examples. I can't seem to come up with one, unless you are talking about something such as "Schindler's List," which was not about making the current Germans "feel guilty" as much as it was telling one man's story of what he did during the holocaust. It was a story told by a jew who knew people who had survived some of the camps.
> 
> It's not like our news reporters go around looking for stories on how to portray the Germans as bad people. They don't. They've got too many other stories to focus on.



Well, I don't want to talk about movies, because they always portray history in a way you can make a good story of it, and you have to show a good one and a bad one in order to make it a blockbuster.
But media definitely keeps us from stoping being "old Nazis". You want an example? For the World Cup, the police had as a symbol a little ball with a police cap on his head, why not... Now, british press said it shows we're still Nazis because the black spot in the middle of the footballs face is not a nose but Hitler's beard... See what I mean? Germans have to be careful with everything they say and do, because people like to interpret it the wrong way... Gosh, that's just some stupid smiling ball!!!


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## natasha2000

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Well, I don't want to talk about movies, because they always portray history in a way you can make a good story of it, and you have to show a good one and a bad one in order to make it a blockbuster.
> But media definitely keeps us from stoping being "old Nazis". You want an example? For the World Cup, the police had as a symbol a little ball with a police cap on his head, why not... Now, british press said it shows we're still Nazis because the black spot in the middle of the footballs face is not a nose but Hitler's beard... See what I mean? Germans have to be careful with everything they say and do, because people like to interpret it the wrong way... Gosh, that's just some stupid smiling ball!!!


 
Those who iterpret the nose of the ball as Hitler's moustashe (it's a moustashe, not beard, Hitler didn't have a beard), have a sarious problem in their heads... You can find bad side in almost everything if you really want to. Therefore, the hell with them.! I like this ball...


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## Seana

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> (...) You can find bad side in almost everything if you really want to. Therefore, the hell with them.! I like this ball...


 
I like this ball too. 
Dear Krümelmonster, natasha is right, try to see the brighter side of this situation rather than only dark, nowadays Germany is wonderful, large nation being counting in the world. So, you will often be a target of the coarse jokes, satire and the criticism -it is simply price of the greatness.


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## pickypuck

Of course not... but if so... why to limit that guilt to a nationality... why not to religion, colour of skin, gender...? 

Crazy!


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## luar

Why should I feel guilty for something that my parents did? There is an interesting concept in family therapy: differentiation. It refers to the ability that one has to understand that his arm is his arm and not his father’s, that his legs are his legs and not his mother’s, that his life is not a continuation of his parents’ life. Then, should contemporary Germans feel guilty about the Nazis? No! But if someone does feel this way, I would highly recommend a few sessions with a good Bowenian family therapist. 

Paraphrasing Savater: If we want to be at peace with ourselves and with one and other, we must kill the dead. We must kill them, and certainly their conflicts, hatred, suffering, guilt would die too.


----------



## Everness

luar said:
			
		

> Why should I feel guilty for something that my parents did? There is an interesting concept in family therapy: differentiation. It refers to the ability that one has to understand that his arm is his arm and not his father’s, that his legs are his legs and not his mother’s, that his life is not a continuation of his parents’ life. Then, should contemporary Germans feel guilty about the Nazis? No! But if someone does feel this way, I would highly recommend a few sessions with a good Bowenian family therapist.
> 
> Paraphrasing Savater: If we want to be at peace with ourselves and with one and other, we must kill the dead. We must kill them, and certainly their conflicts, hatred, suffering, guilt would die too.



The Bible has a different take on this issue. The Ten Commandments talk about a moral and spiritual principle that might yet be in operation. 

_"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments._ Exodus 20.4

Maybe it's hard for Western individualistic societies to understand the implications of this commandment. Rampant hyperindividualism doesn't allow us to see how interconnected we are horizontally (in the here and now) and vertically (historically). The fact that we don't see or acknowledge this reality doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Some of us would love to be cut off from our shameful past as individuals, families, nations and world. But it's impossible. Of course we shouldn't allow our past to overtake our present and future. However, we can't just kill our past or pretend that it doesn't exist. We need to integrate into our communal lives. We need to put it into the correct perspective. How we do that? Telling the good and bad stories. In that sense, we could all learn form the Jewish people. 

I like family therapy but this time I'll go with the Bible.


----------



## cherine

MarcB said:
			
		

> To Cherine was El Alamein not in Egypt? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Alamein
> Most people were affected n one way or another by that war. Several years ago I heard victims and their descendants blame Germany for the evils of the war. The further away we get from the war and the fewer living victims the sooner we forget. I think we can not forget the ills of the past, least we repeat them. But I do not hold accountable people who were not yet born (the sins of the father). People should, no, must reconcile their differences and grow. So let’s forgive the sons of the fathers yet not forget nor dismiss the fathers for their role


Yes, of course Marc, El Alamein is in Egypt. And people still get killed by the mines planted in our soil more than fifty years ago (Egypt is the fourth most heavily mined country in the world). We can't develop the major part of our north coast because the Axis and Allies won't give us the maps of the mines they planted in Egypt, which was a "theater" of there stupid war.
But this doesn't mean we hate Germans (in fact, many Egyptians of that time were so naive as to wish for Germans' victory, dreaming that this would liberate them (past us) from the British colonization).
Germany is a very respected country -I speak of Egypt, but I don't think we're alone in this feeling- and also admired : a country that could rise from almost ashes, build a modern civilsation in less than fifty years, German people who are so hard working, highly organized (we consider them a bit cold and too organized, as machines) but we still admire them a lot.
We -partial victim, who still suffer until now- don't hold the current Germans liable for what their ancestors did. And this is why I was shocked to learn that they teach their children to be ashamed and to feel guilty. I understand that they teach them to be ashamed of the sins/crimes committed by their predecessors; but to feel *guilty* ?! this is what I can't understand.


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## natasha2000

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> This statement is totally false... unless you can produce facts to support it. While many Neo-Nazis may have psychological problems, and many use drugs, none of them that I have ever met fit either of those descriptions.
> 
> You are overgeneralizing, assuming and mis-stating the problem as heinously as krumelmonster, with his mistaken belief that neo-nazism comes from a desire for a national pride that has been robbed by communal guilt. In calling them all addicts and psychos, you prevent us from addressing the real cause, which is that neo-nazism is a belief system that is taught -- not a mental illness.


 
Something happened with my huge answer and right now I am so angry  that I cannot repeat it, but Fenix, I promise, I'll be back with the answer.


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## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> _"for *I*, the LORD your God, am a jealous *God, punishing* the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of *those who hate me*, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments._ Exodus 20.4



You make a major misreading of the piece there, Everness.

It is *this GOD* who will do the punishing.
No mention is made of us being required to punish either ourselves or others.
We must not presume to do this God's work for it.
Note also that this God only states the it will thus punish those who hate it (and their children), no mention is made of punishing other offences.
Who are we to ascribe guilt to anyone? —> I'm not ready to cast the first stone, particularly not against a whole nation!


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> You make a major misreading of the piece there, Everness.
> 
> It is *this GOD* who will do the punishing.
> No mention is made of us being required to punish either ourselves or others.
> We must not presume to do this God's work for it.
> Note also that this God only states the it will thus punish those who hate it (and their children), no mention is made of punishing other offences.
> Who are we to ascribe guilt to anyone? —> I'm not ready to cast the first stone, particularly not against a whole nation!



You got it all wrong. You don't need to be a deist --rationalists who perceive God as a watchmaker who set the universe running and let people manage it by reason-- to abhor the idea of God as a micromanager.

The Ten Commandments give us, using Fromm's words, an object of devotion and an ethical framework. This is God's message: "Here are the moral principles I want you as individuals, families and nations to observe. If you live up to them you'll be blessed. If not, sooner or later you'll have to face the consequences." What's important to emphasize in a world so absorbed in the here and now, is that the next generations will pay the price of our sins of ommission and commission. (And this doesn't apply exclusively to our hobby of destroying the environment.) However, whole nations can acknowledge their misdeeds and turn their communal lives around. That's exactly what Germany did. In other words, there's also a chance for redemption. But first you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror and recognize and renounce your ability to inflict so much pain on others. (Of course this doesn't apply to the current American administration who see themselves above God's law.) 

I would add that even if there weren't a God, there are moral laws that need to be followed by mankind.


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> However, whole nations can acknowledge their misdeeds and turn their communal lives around. That's exactly what Germany did.



Germany didn't do anything of the sort.
Those who did the evil were removed, and Germany carried on as 'normal' — getting on with life as must everyone else.



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> I would add that even if there weren't a God, there are moral laws that need to be followed by mankind.



Mmmmm - "laws"? I'm not so sure. We accord each other "rights", and we set ourselves "moral standards", and we try to encompass most people's ideas of their own moral standards into our various nations' laws - but I don't see any evidence of either "natural law" or "moral law" - these are concepts which societies (usually religions) use to try to rationalise their strictures.
We all, individually, have to decide what is the 'good', and how to live a good life.


----------



## luar

Everness said:
			
		

> Rampant hyperindividualism doesn't allow us to see how interconnected we are horizontally (in the here and now) and vertically (historically). The fact that we don't see or acknowledge this reality doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Some of us would love to be cut off from our shameful past as individuals, families, nations and world. But it's impossible. Of course we shouldn't allow our past to overtake our present and future. However, we can't just kill our past or pretend that it doesn't exist. We need to integrate into our communal lives. We need to put it into the correct perspective. How we do that? Telling the good and bad stories. In that sense, we could all learn form the Jewish people.
> 
> I like family therapy but this time I'll go with the Bible.


 
The concept of _differentiation_ did not imply hyperindividualism. It refers to two contrasting realities: I recognize my self as an individual, and I am aware that I exist in connection with others around me. Pay attention to this part: I use the word connection not agglutination. I know where_ I_ finish, and where the other begins. Applying this to the German history, I believe it would go like that: yes, my parents did something horrible, so I won’t repeat their atrocities. This person is taking a responsible position, by taking the past into account. 

I really believe that the source of most of our suffering comes from this inability to accept that the past is the past and not the present. The present is full of possibilities, and one of them is the wonderful opportunity to _make everything new_ (Revelation 21, 5).


----------



## luar

Everness said:
			
		

> What's important to emphasize in a world so absorbed in the here and now, is that the next generations will pay the price of our sins of ommission and commission. (And this doesn't apply exclusively to our hobby of destroying the environment.) However, whole nations can acknowledge their misdeeds and turn their communal lives around. That's exactly what Germany did. In other words, there's also a chance for redemption. But first you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror and recognize and renounce your ability to inflict so much pain on others. (Of course this doesn't apply to the current American administration who see themselves above God's law.)


I agree, especially with what you say about Bush's administration. Just a quick observation: Assuming a here and now-attitude doesn't mean that we may satisfy our needs and desires without considering all potential consequences, particulary to others; this is just being irresponsible.


----------



## fenixpollo

Everness said:
			
		

> But first you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror and recognize and renounce your ability to inflict so much pain on others. (Of course this doesn't apply to the current American administration who see themselves above God's law.)


 Bush & Co. don't think they are above God's law, but rather interpreting it, applying it and enforcing it -- more like on a par with the angels.


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## übermönch

answering to the thread question: Yes, we should. As long as we acknowledge Germany as a national state, us as members of something as weird as some German nation it's reasonable that we also should identify ourself with it's deeds. It may sound strange, but that's what nationalism is about, not just about being proud. A nation is supposed to be something like a big family. For instance the German chauncellor Willy Brandt fell on his knees in front of the warsaw ghetto memorial, not regarding none of his relatives even lived in Germany by that time. They were in Sweden.

In the village where I live there were 20% people defined as Jews by the racial laws of Nuremberg. Most of them got killed, not thank to some gestapo or nazi officials, but solely because of their neighbours who wanted their possessions. In that cast-away region nobody checked if someone was jewish if there was no suspicion and suspicion only appeared if someone asked for it. Almost all shops in the town were previously owned by Jews and now still are owned by the descendandts of their indirect murderers. All local companies held slaves during the nazi regime, all of whom got shot shortly before the americans arrived. I don't think something like that can or should ever be forgotten or ignored. I also think the German state has still done too little as recompensation for nazi crimes. The allies were planning to make a huge farm ("potato state") out of germany, but it was spared. That's something we should be thankful for, and of someone doesn't feel comfortable about it, she should give the German citizenship away. The more we remember the atrocities of our forefathers the lesser is the propabality for something like this to happen again. OK in a better world there would be no nationalism and no nations, but something like "international socialism" where everybody would have the same rights and possibilities, but unfortunately it is not like that and nations which were exploiting others for the last five hundred years still enjoy life solely because of that.


----------



## natasha2000

> This statement is totally false... unless you can produce facts to support it. While many Neo-Nazis





> may have psychological problems, and many use drugs, none of them that I have ever met fit either of those descriptions.


Fenix, I don't understand what is exacly you do not agree about. I said that neonazis are mostly drug addicts and have some kind of mental disorder, usually psychopathy, and you said the same. Look your post, I marked it in red. I haven't said anything else, so I don't see how those who you met don't fit in this description, although you did say they mey have psychological problems and many of them use drugs. Or is it just a level of drug addiction and psychological problems we are disagreeing about?


> You are overgeneralizing, assuming and mis-stating the problem as heinously as krumelmonster, with his mistaken belief that neo-nazism comes from a desire for a national pride that has been robbed by communal guilt. In calling them all addicts and psychos, you prevent us from addressing the real cause, which is that neo-nazism is a belief system that is taught -- not a mental illness.


 
Of course that it is the belief system. And it is sad that a world allowed the creation of a belief system such as nazism. But they did. And who created it? Hitler and his pals. Do you think that Hitler was sane person? I don't. I saw a movie about him, and I read a little bit about him, and it is said he had serious psychological problems.. Yet, he achieved to make a pretty little mess in the whole world, didn't he? Look this:



> *Psychopathy* is defined in psychiatry as a condition characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors.


 
*Empathy* is one's ability to recognize and understand the emotion of another. (source: Wiki).
Do you really believe that neonazis, and nazis are capable of feeling empathy, to recognize and understand the emotion of another ? I don't. if they were they wouldn't be capable of doing what they do (neonazis) or did (only 6 million Jews, withouth counting Slavs, Gypsies and all other people of their own and other nations because they were considered communists).
*Conscience* is a moral faculty that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral precepts.
Do you think they have concience? Are they capable of feeling remorse? I don't. Well, yes, it also says ... when we do the things that go against our moral precepts" and nazi "moral precepts" surely do not include feeling anything but hateress towards those who do not fit in their image of a "big white brother". But idoesn't it just confirms what I said?

*Poor impulse control*: If they had a good control of their impulses, they wouldn't jump all of a sudden to beat to death some hispanic guy or some other poor immigrant of darker skin, just because he passed them too close. There are also other people who do not like immigrants, yet they do not jump to beat the shit out of them every time they see them.

*Manipulative behaviours: *This would refer more to those who lead and create the system, than to those who serve it, since those who serve it are in fact, manipulated. Goebbels himself said that a lie repeated thousand times becomes truth, isn't he? It is well known that nazis were masters of manipulation and propaganda. Nowadays, it is a little bit different, they cannot manipulate whole nations (in Hitler's ays economical crisis helped a lot), but they still can find weak people - they just have to go to the bottom of the society. There they are, already destroyed by drugs, broken families, alcoholism, etc... hopeless, and desperate to belong to someone or to somewhere. And this is what leaders give them - the feeling they ARE someone, that they belong to somewhere, that they have the family they lost a long time ago... And they are ready to follow blindly the leaders everywhere. Leaders give them another thing, too... The same thing Hitler did at his time in Germany - someone to blame for all bad things in their lives - Hitler gave Jews, Gipsies and communists to Germans, neonazis give immigrants, blacks, gays, hippies, mentally and physicaly disabled people... Do I need to continue?

I don’t know neonazis you met, and I have never met one, but i read a lot about them and saw movies about them, and I also read news about their “deeds”, and I really find it very difficult to believe that those who you met were NORMAL people.

I tried to explain why I think as i think, and i would like to know why you think as you think, as a matter of fact, you just said that I am not right, and that I am overgeneralizing, assuming and mis-stating (whatever it means?), and you did not say what is that you think since it is obvious that you disagree with me.
I would appreciate if you, at least tell what you think on the subject.
Thank you.


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Germany didn't do anything of the sort.
> Those who did the evil were removed, and Germany carried on as 'normal' — getting on with life as must everyone else.



Oh, please! The previous posts of a 19-year-old German forero illustrates the falsehood of your assertion. Germany as a country made a crucial decision following WWII: to put its Nazi past behind. And if you pay close attention to Germany's culture, politics, laws, education system, history books, etc. etc. you'll easily realize that they almost went overboard in their goal of not just putting their shameful past behind but in making sure that the ugly head of nazism doesn't pop up again. Of course it was a combination of external and internal pressure. But the bottom line is that they were successful.


----------



## natasha2000

übermönch said:
			
		

> I don't think something like that can or should ever be forgotten or ignored.


 
Nobody said it should be forgotten. It shouldn't be forgotten, but you shouldn't feel the way you feel because you didn't do it. This is the point.

I think it is a little bit exagerated what you say here:



> The allies were planning to make a huge farm ("potato state") out of germany, but it was spared. That's something we should be thankful for...


 


> The more we remember the atrocities of our forefathers the lesser is the propabality for something like this to happen again.


 
Somehow I cannot resist to ask, why only Germans should do this? What about other nations? Nazis didn't do what they did because they were Germans, but because they were what they were. There were butchers in other countries too, and concentration camps that were not German during the WWII. What about these nations? It is not about the nations, it is about the human being. We all should NOT FORGET what NAZIS and not Germans did, in a hope that one day, a human being will stop to hurt his fellow being.


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Mmmmm - "laws"? I'm not so sure. We accord each other "rights", and we set ourselves "moral standards", and we try to encompass most people's ideas of their own moral standards into our various nations' laws - but I don't see any evidence of either "natural law" or "moral law" - these are concepts which societies (usually religions) use to try to rationalise their strictures.
> We all, individually, have to decide what is the 'good', and how to live a good life.



If you take a good look at our laws (those created by legislative branches) in most Western countries you'll realize that they respond to established Judeo-Christian core values. The Ten Commandments, and its interpretation by Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount, are still guiding our daily lives even if you are an agnostic or a atheist. The respect for individual rights is paramount. So much for a post-Christian world...


----------



## fenixpollo

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> As you said, neo-nazis (again, not only in Germany, but in all other countries where they exist) they are just a bunch of loosers, unemployed, drug addicted and usually psychopatic and violent.


Natasha, I read from your statement that you are dismissing neo-nazism as the deluded philosophy of drug addicts and psychopaths; and that nearly all neo-nazis are addicts and psychos.

I believe that very, very few neo-nazis use drugs -- I think that neo-nazis have a lower incidence of drug use than in the general population -- but I don't have any facts to back up that assumption.  I'm just basing that on my own experience and things I see in the news.

As far as being psychopathic, I think that according to your definition, a large number of apparently normal politicians, policemen and teenagers that I have met could be considered psychopatic. I prefer to think of most neo-nazis as confused, misled and deluded -- because then they can be helped to see the error of their ways. If they are all psychopathic, then the best solution is to establish "reeducation centers", where they would all be shaved, deloused and lobotomized. But then, I don't think what we need to do is look for a final solution... do you?


----------



## moirag

I lived in Germany for 9 years...most (8) pre-wall-falling. I think the Germans DO have a guilt complex. OK, it wasn't the fault of that person you're talking to .... but I do think it's necessary to make kids aware. I think the modern tendency may be that you should never feel uncomfortable.... but I don't agree with that. Why not???  Everyone has a cross to bear, either personal or national or....So the Germans pay this price. I agree. Let's hope it doesn't happen again, but at least it's not because they weren't INFORMED! We could probably do with a bit more "collective guilt" education in GB.


----------



## .   1

> I think that neo-nazis have a lower incidence of drug use than in the general population -- but I don't have any facts to back up that assumption. I'm just basing that on my own experience and things I see in the news.


I will have to consider this statement very carefully and balance it against posts containing quantifiable substance.

I wonder why it is that neo-nazis have less drug use than the general population?

.,,


----------



## luar

moirag said:
			
		

> I lived in Germany for 9 years...most (8) pre-wall-falling. I think the Germans DO have a guilt complex. OK, it wasn't the fault of that person you're talking to .... but I do think it's necessary to make kids aware. I think the modern tendency may be that you should never feel uncomfortable.... but I don't agree with that. Why not??? Everyone has a cross to bear, either personal or national or....So the Germans pay this price. I agree. Let's hope it doesn't happen again, but at least it's not because they weren't INFORMED! We could probably do with a bit more "collective guilt" education in GB.


So, there is not middle ground: either you feel guilty, or you irresponsibly ignore the past? It is true, collective guilt has been associated to the desire to make amends for the past, but there most be a more mature motive to do what is right.


----------



## natasha2000

Fenix, I think that you're exaggerating now... Lobotomy was a curing method of 19th century psychiatry, don't think that now it is used anymore... 

And another thing, it was not MY definition, I took it from Wiki. If you need some "more technical source", I will search for it. And yes, probably most of politicians, policemans and teenagers you met were psychopatic if they had these characteristics. Not all psychopaths become murderers, because their development depends on many factors. Surely that amog (only) teenagers you met there were also some misled, and confused, since they are teenagers and they are young... But politicians and policemen are adults and they cannot be misled or confused... Most of them know exactly what they do. They are the "leaders" and teenagers are usually "army" and they are usually misled and confused... 

Interesting article.
I have some things to sayb but right now i don't have much time, but I promise to be back.


----------



## Krümelmonster

übermönch said:
			
		

> The allies were planning to make a huge farm ("potato state") out of germany, but it was spared. That's something we should be thankful for, and of someone doesn't feel comfortable about it, she should give the German citizenship away.



@ Natasha: Übermönch is referring to the Morgenthau-Plan (of Henry Morgenthau) and I don't think he is exaggerating... but we'll never know, for fortunately (for us) it didn't come true.

@ Übermönch: I guess you're refering to me with this "she"... I just wanted to remind you that I didn't start this thread on if we should feel guilty. I just told the things how they are in the football-thread and told them it feels good for Germans to be alllowed to show pride in their country without being Nazis.
This should be according to your opinion, that nationalism is about feeling pride as well as shame for his country, share the good and bad parts. I feel shame and guilt for it, so let me be allowed to feel pride without somebody telling me that "50000 Germans singing their anthem" frightens him.
I don't remember to have given the answer if I think I should feel guilty or not, so I find it quite hard to tell me to "go if I don't like it" (or give my citizenship away).


----------



## Qcumber

The question is: who finds it profitable to have this or that people feel guilty?
Once you have the answer, you know what mafia is behind the campaign.


----------



## natasha2000

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I believe that very, very few neo-nazis use drugs -- I think that neo-nazis have a lower incidence of drug use than in the general population -- but I don't have any facts to back up that assumption. I'm just basing that on my own experience and things I see in the news.


 
I read the article... It is a little bit contradictory. First, it starts with an alarming tone of how spread neonazism in Germany is , and then it says:



> Youth psychologist Wolfgang Bergmann, however, believes that this has little to do with ideology. Along with street workers, he says that right-wing extremism tends to be, at least for some people, a stage of puberty: the coolest, most effective and possibly even the only way to shock liberal parents who these days are not even fazed by Ecstasy or poor grades.


 

Besides, ny conclusion from the article is that the guilty ones are the state and the society. It says that those three boys enlisted to neonazi group because they were fed up of foreign bands beting them up almost every day. It says further, that in small towns, those foreign gangs are not duly persecuted by the police, "because of the fear to be acused as xenofobic." Rubbish! On the other hand, when they were on camping, their parents forbid them to put German flag on their tent, even though all other tents had flags of respective countries... Well. in such a environment, no wonder one becomes xenofobic. Young people become frustrated because something that is allowed to all the world it is prohibited for them, and on the other hand, their own police does not protect them from foreign gangs, just because they are foreigners. I find this a little bit ridiculous, don't you? Then, appears neonazi, with their organized free-beer parties, being the first one who shows concern for theproblems of that young man who is full of unanswered questions, and gives them the answers. The tragic point in this story is that these answers are WRONG. Those answers should have been given by their parents and their state, but since they only know to prohibit and not explain... Understandable. Horrible and terifying, but logical outcome.
That is why I think that the things are not put in the right place in Germany. Yo u cannot forbid a child born in some '80ies to put up the flag of his country among the other flags of other countries just because some 60 years ago in his country emmerged a person like Hitler. If you say NO, you cannot do that, you have to explain why. Kids function in this way. If not, then you will have the rebelion against the authority. But as this article also points out, most of those kids are not real danger, since they prefer fancy and provoking clothes, in order to shock the parents who are now not so easy to shock as earlier, to real nazi ideology. I really wonder how serious is nazi movement in Germany, and how much guilt for that has the very same prohibition of some stupid things such as putting up the German flag in a kids camp, or making the children guilty of something they don't even understand?



> But then, I don't think what we need to do is look for a final solution... do you?


 
Hmm.. This term looks too much Nazi... For sure, I wouldn't elaborate "The final solution" for nazis as they had elaborated it for Jews....


----------



## natasha2000

Qcumber said:
			
		

> The question is: who finds it profitable to have this or that people feel guilty?
> Once you have the answer, you know what mafia is behind the campaign.


 
Somehow I would agree with this...
History, both recent and not so recent showed us so many times that excuses are many, but there is only one real reason for many atrocities human being inflicted to the other one: profit.


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## Everness

Edwin said:
			
		

> Hmm... God must have had a real dilemma dealing with the dirty deeds of a Nazi whose parents loved God and kept his commandments. The Nazi son is well within the thousand generations....as will be the offspring of the son and their offspring.



Again, my point is that this verse reminds us that we are a link in a chain of generations into the past and into the future. The same way there's transmission of genetic data from parents to children, moral and ethical issues --especially those unresolved-- are transmitted from generation to generation. There's a intergenerational moral causality law in operation. Maybe we don't see a prima facie how this law works. 

For instance, it's true that the German people is apparently thriving at so many levels (except football) but, at least, there's a burden related to Nazism that they are still carrying that doesn't allow them to live their lives to the fullest extent possible. Maybe wounds heal but scars remain forever. And if the next generations neglect telling this awful story of what we did, the ghosts will haunt them and they will commit the same sins of ommission or commission. Of course some people would argue that this moral law doesn't exist because the Germans have not been wiped out and/or punished with a zillion plagues. 

In terms of the Nazi child of godly parents, well, if someone needs God's mercy it would definitely be him or her. Maybe God will be more merciful to him or her because of his/her parents' devotion. Who knows? The Lord acts in mysterious ways...


----------



## Qcumber

Everness said:
			
		

> Again, my point is that this verse reminds us that we are a link in a chain of generations into the past and into the future. The same way there's transmission of genetic data from parents to children, moral and ethical issues --especially those unresolved-- are transmitted from generation to generation. There's a intergenerational moral causality law in operation. Maybe we don't see a prima facie how this law works.


 
Frankly I think it very primitive and barbaric to hold an innocent child responsible for what his parents did. The same can be said of diachronic collective responsability. At least no modern legal system would accept that. Resorting to that sort of principle throws humanity back to its dark ages.


----------



## Everness

Qcumber said:
			
		

> Frankly I think it very primitive and barbaric to hold an innocent child responsible for what his parents did. The same can be said of diachronic collective responsability. At least no modern legal system would accept that. Resorting to that sort of principle throws humanity back to its dark ages.



Let's see if I get my point across once and forever. First, we are talking about moral universal laws that operate at a macro level. Second, although a generation can't be held responsible for what the previous did, they will suffer the consequences of the misdeeds of their ancestors.


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> In terms of the Nazi child of godly parents, well, if someone needs God's mercy it would definitely be him or her. Maybe God will be more merciful to him or her because of his/her parents' devotion. Who knows? The Lord acts in mysterious ways...



You really seem to want to have it both ways, don't you?
In post #45 you 'remind' us…


> for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,



and later saying…


> This is God's message: "Here are the moral principles I want you as individuals, families and nations to observe. If you live up to them you'll be blessed. If not, sooner or later you'll have to face the consequences."


----------



## cirrus

Everness said:
			
		

> Second, although a generation can't be held responsible for what the previous did, they will suffer the consequences of the misdeeds of their ancestors.



Original sin isn't very charitable is it?


----------



## GenJen54

*Mod Note:  *Deities and higher powers take many forms on these forums. Some believe in a "he," others a "she," others an "it." Others don't believe at all. 

Each position has its own voice here - none is more right than any other. 

*ALL POSTS REGARDING THE PLACE OF RELIGIOUS VALUES IN GOVERNMENT HAVE BEEN MOVED TO THEIR OWN THREAD.   PLEASE DO NOT POST FURTHER ON THE TOPIC IN THIS THREAD.*

Thank you.


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## jimreilly

I think all citizens of every country should worry more about the present behavior of their countries than the past. Yes, recognizing the bad things that one's country did in the past is important, because it can illuminate the present and the nature of a country's culture. But "guilt" about such things is just as often paralyzing (or worse) as it is helpful.

As an American, I have no logical reason to feel guilty that my country had slavery (for so long!); I was not there, neither were my parents or my grandparents, but I do need to know about slavery, to think about it, and to learn about its political, philosophical, and cultural roots, as well as to understand what contributions that historical horror made to the present condition of my country and many of its people. Talk about the sins of the forebears being visited upon the present!

When I have been in Norway I have seen physical reminders of the German wartime occupation, vivid reminders: gun emplacements, a whole downtown of postwar buildings replacing ones destroyed in the war (the town of Bodø), cement factory walls in which I am told still rest the bodies of slave laborers who died building those very walls (in Trondheim). I am sure the huge majority of Norwegians would not think that today's German young people should feel guilty about these things, however. But I am also sure most Norwegians would hope that Germans today know about these (and many other) things.

Again, as an American, I do feel guilty about many of the present actions of my country towards others in the world and towards its own citizens, despite the fact that I have never voted for a Bush. I am, after all, a part of my culture, with the responsibility to speak out and act for the good; I pay taxes to support my country's actions, and I profit from my country's economic successes, which often involve the exploitation of many people. I hope this kind of guilt can be a motivation to action, and therefore useful. 

Likewise, I would assume all thoughtful Germans want to know about Germany's past, but for many Germans might it not be best to "spend" guilt/motivation on today's injustices, in Germany and elsewhere in the world?


----------



## Everness

jimreilly said:
			
		

> As an American, I have no logical reason to feel guilty that my country had slavery (for so long!); I was not there, neither were my parents or my grandparents, but I do need to know about slavery, to think about it, and to learn about its political, philosophical, and cultural roots, as well as to understand what contributions that historical horror made to the present condition of my country and many of its people. Talk about the sins of the forebears being visited upon the present!



Jim, I have a hard time understanding your logic. Why should there be a disconnect between cognition and feelings? I'm not saying that you should feel guilty for something you didn't do. What I'm saying is that you should feel guilty and even ashamed for things your ancestors did. If you study slavery in the US (cognitive function) why wouldn't you feel ashamed --not just guilty-- (emotional function) for what your ancestors did even if you weren't around? You and I weren't around either when we fought against the British and finally obtained our independence. However, many of us feel proud (emotional function) for what these Americans did. Some of us even venerate these patriots as semi-gods for their bravery and accomplishments. 

So for some of us it's logical to feel proud (emotional function) for some cool things our ancestors did but it's illogical to feel guilty (emotional function) for other naughty things they did? Are we talking here about selective feelings?

I think that cognitive processes inform feeling processes which in turn inform behavioral processes. Then the full circle starts again. For instance Germans had Nazism and we had slavery. (I wish these would be the only items on both lists). Reading our history in a critical fashion should generate strong positive feelings (pride, satisfaction, happiness, etc.) and negative emotions (anger, frustration, guilt, shame, etc.) These feelings should then play a key role in making sure that we don't just accept "official" whitewashed historical accounts but that we challenge each other to look at all the good and bad things our countries have done. Bottom line: a good historian uses his mind and his heart.


----------



## maxiogee

jimreilly said:
			
		

> Again, as an American, I do feel guilty about many of the present actions of my country towards others in the world and towards its own citizens, despite the fact that I have never voted for a Bush. I am, after all, a part of my culture, with the responsibility to speak out and act for the good; I pay taxes to support my country's actions, and I profit from my country's economic successes, which often involve the exploitation of many people. I hope this kind of guilt can be a motivation to action, and therefore useful.



Jim, I think "guilt" is the wrong emotion here. "Shame" and/or "anger" are surely the proper reactions to a thing for which we share no responsibility. "Shame" that a fellow-national (and I'm talking generally here, and NOT about America or Bush!) could do something we find odious, and/or "anger" that fellow nationals could elect and support such a person.

Please do not feel guilt "on behalf of" others —> as humans we tend to do enough personally to be worth feeling guilty about, without taking on the burden rigthfully belonging to others.
The thinking people of the rest of the world know that not all citizens of X are responsible for things done (sometimes in their name) by theire elected representatives, or by their armies.





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Jim, I have a hard time understanding your logic.


SNAP!  

*A*


> I'm not saying that you should feel guilty for something you didn't do.



*B*


> What I'm saying is that you should feel guilty and even ashamed for things your ancestors did.



What nuance are you seeing in these two statements which makes them unequal in your eyes? Jim "didn't do" what it was that his ancestors did - and you say he should feel guilt about it - but he didn't do it, and you say he shouldn't feel guilty for something he didn't do! 
You've lost me.

Could it be that you think he shouldn't feel guilty for present events,but he should feel guilty for past events? That would be an uncommon viewpoint.




> You and I weren't around either when we fought against the British and finally obtained our independence. However, many of us feel proud (emotional function) for what these Americans did. Some of us even venerate these patriots as semi-gods for their bravery and accomplishments.
> 
> So for some of us it's logical to feel proud (emotional function) for some cool things our ancestors did but it's illogical to feel guilty (emotional function) for other naughty things they did? Are we talking here about selective feelings?



Could it be that, instead of urging Jim (and others) to feel guilt or shame about his ancestors, you should be urging him and the others not to feel pride?
Pride in someone else's achievements (of which we are not a part) is as unreasonable as guilt in their failings.
The lauding of ancestors militaristic achievements is a major cause of contention and strife in Ireland — and has been souring relations for generations. "We" see "you" commemorating someone "we" see as a criminal, and "you" see "us" celebrating the achievements of someone who was a murdering thug.


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## natasha2000

Just a little food for thinking...

What would have happened if Germany had won the World Cup in Football?

How it would be celebrated? With no flags and no joy and no proud of being Germans and the victory, as Italians did?

Besides, I did see German supporters on TV with German flag colors painted in their faces just as all other countries' supporters... What about them? Will they be punished? Or they do not feel the shame as other Germans? 
This is something what crossed my mind this morning, seeing the delirium of Italians on TV news... I remembered how good I felt when my country won the Basketball championship in 1995.... This also can be called nacionalism? Is nacionalism _per se_ bad, or can it be distinguished from chauvinism? Like, nationalism is to be proud of your country, but not looking down to the others, and it passes to be chauvinism when you begin to underestimate the others?
Just some questions that crossed my mind... If moderators consider this off topic, feel free to erase it.


----------



## Krümelmonster

Natasha, now you are at the very begining of the thread again. The first quote the thread was started with is something I wrote in the football-thread and that deals with why football is so important for us -> because it's the first time in my life I was allowed to be proud of Germany and to cheer for our team and even to wear a shirt reading "germany" or painting our flags in the face.
This was totally new to me and really a great experience, and me writing this was for someone the reason to start this thread...
Maybe you better read the original post with context, I think the discussion doesn't have to be repeated.


----------



## Sallyb36

I really don't think that any German will ever be unaware of what the nazi's did, but I do think that they should be allowed, without guilt, to feel some pride in new things that they achieve as a nation.


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## natasha2000

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Natasha, now you are at the very begining of the thread again. The first quote the thread was started with is something I wrote in the football-thread and that deals with why football is so important for us -> because it's the first time in my life I was allowed to be proud of Germany and to cheer for our team and even to wear a shirt reading "germany" or painting our flags in the face.
> This was totally new to me and really a great experience, and me writing this was for someone the reason to start this thread...
> Maybe you better read the original post with context, I think the discussion doesn't have to be repeated.


 
Lisen, Krümelmonster, *before you become nasty and rude, you should be sure you're right.* I attach you the summary of YOUR posts in this thread, together with the initial post of Scherine where she quotes your post from some other thread (posts 1, 11, 16, 40 and 64), and you will se that IN THIS THREAD you never said that you were allowed for the first time in your life to wear german colors and flags. 
If you said that is some other thread, and above all if it was about football, I wouldn't know, since i did not participate in it, because I don't have the slightest interest in football, so logically, I wouldn't even open the thread about football.

Or you think that I should search all the threads you posted in WR, so I wouldn't make a mistake of REPEATING something that is known only TO YOU????????????'


----------



## Krümelmonster

Aaahm... ups? Sorry, I think my post came out completely the wrong way... I wrote that with no bad thought on my mind, believing that I help you telling you that this thread started being split up from another thread, because yes, I thought that it is not normal that everybody read the football-threads.
I don't know what happened so it sounds nasty and rude to you, English is not my native language and it seems I chose the wrong words.

I want to apologize honestly, this was in no way the impression I wanted to make or the message I wanted to tell. What I wanted to say is: There is a thread about the influence of football. I said in this thread something like "in Germany the influence is that we can be proud without feeling guilty for it." Cherine read it and said to herself "Should a contemporary German feel guilty about what the Nazis did?" and started this thread. 
So we're back at the beginning with your post, right? Sorry, either I said it wrong or i thought it wrong, if the second please explain it to me, if the first, as I told you: I didn't want that.

Mila


----------



## natasha2000

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Aaahm... ups? Sorry, I think my post came out completely the wrong way... I wrote that with no bad thought on my mind, believing that I help you telling you that this thread started being split up from another thread, because yes, I thought that it is not normal that everybody read the football-threads.
> I don't know what happened so it sounds nasty and rude to you, English is not my native language and it seems I chose the wrong words.
> 
> I want to apologize honestly, this was in no way the impression I wanted to make or the message I wanted to tell. What I wanted to say is: There is a thread about the influence of football. I said in this thread something like "in Germany the influence is that we can be proud without feeling guilty for it." Scherine read it and said to himself "Should a contemporary German feel guilty about what the Nazis did?" and started this thread.
> So we're back at the beginning with your post, right? Sorry, either I said it wrong or i thought it wrong, if the second please explain it to me, if the first, as I told you: I didn't want that.
> 
> Mila


 
Appologies accepted, but I would like to clear some things first.

If you call somebody's attention on something that YOU think it's obvious, it means you're telling him he hasn't payed much of attention of what is going on, and this does not have anything to do with the knowledge of English, but with an attitude you take towards one person.
And, yes...
We are NOT at the beggining of the thread because this was never mentioned in this thread, so for all participants of this thread, but YOU, of course, my post brings a new thought. The only thing that it can be is off topic, as I already pointed out at the end of it.

And yes... Here, we are limited to words and only words. I cannot read something you didn't write, but you thought to write. Therefore it is very important to be careful when posting, since don't forget the other forero cannot see your face, the other forero doesn't know you at all, therefore, the other forero cannot suppose what you had been thinking from what you write. The other forero can only deduct on the basis of what you DID write, not what you WANTED to write.

Cheers.


----------



## flame

Read all this with great intererst. My opinion: this question can be answered by Germans only.

In Austria we have a similar debate, started in conjunction with the Waldheim presidency campaign. We - the (then) young generation were suddenly thrown into the cold water. Before that days we didn't know anything about what happened in WW2, our parents (better grandparents) weren't very talkative, the most you could get out of them was "let it rest, it's such a long time ago" or "We didn't know what was going on".

Suddenly a gild of enlighted people appeared and told us to be guilty forever. I remember as if it was yesterday that a political leader of that time told that ther was no such a thing called "... die Gnade der späten Geburt ..." ("... the mercy of late birth ..."). Personally I felt very uncomfortable at that time, for I cannot accept a blame for what I had nothing to do with.

Today I feel this was some kind of overreaction, after 40 years of ignorance. It's much better today. There are a couple of restitution (or compensation?) programs which I think is a good thing. And this is what we (the after-war generation) can contribute and where I see our role: try to clean up (as much as it is possible) what has been messed up, and don't forget. If we want to take it seriously, we should try to understand how it could happen and what to do to not let it happen again, but not out of a feeling of guilt. If we have learned our lesson, there's no reason to feel guilty.


----------



## V52

I have really no time to read the whole thread, so maybe I can give a very simple opinion.
Modern Germans don't have to feel guilty , but certainly they must be aware.
And aware must be  modern Italians about what fascism did.
Vittorio


----------



## natasha2000

flame said:
			
		

> Read all this with great intererst. My opinion: this question can be answered by Germans only.
> 
> In Austria we have a similar debate, started in conjunction with the Waldheim presidency campaign. We - the (then) young generation were suddenly thrown into the cold water. Before that days we didn't know anything about what happened in WW2, our parents (better grandparents) weren't very talkative, the most you could get out of them was "let it rest, it's such a long time ago" or "We didn't know what was going on".
> 
> Suddenly a gild of enlighted people appeared and told us to be guilty forever. I remember as if it was yesterday that a political leader of that time told that ther was no such a thing called "... die Gnade der späten Geburt ..." ("... the mercy of late birth ..."). Personally I felt very uncomfortable at that time, for I cannot accept a blame for what I had nothing to do with.
> 
> Today I feel this was some kind of overreaction, after 40 years of ignorance. It's much better today. There are a couple of restitution (or compensation?) programs which I think is a good thing. And this is what we (the after-war generation) can contribute and where I see our role: try to clean up (as much as it is possible) what has been messed up, and don't forget. If we want to take it seriously, we should try to understand how it could happen and what to do to not let it happen again, but not out of a feeling of guilt. If we have learned our lesson, there's no reason to feel guilty.


 
Very well said, Flame.
Nobody should forget, and we all have to have it present in our minds...
But nobody should be blamed NOW for what happened 60 years ago. nobody should feel ashamed to do such normal things like putting up the flag or colors of your country on some sports event, to be proud of your country and its people... Germany is a lot more than nazis. Inmensly a lot more. 
And just a little note... I think it is a very good law you have in Austria - denying holocoust is considered crime. This is the right thing to do. Not forbidding putting up flags or colors of the country.


----------



## Krümelmonster

@ Natasha: Lol, now you managed to solve that problem for me: I'm feeling so much personal contemporary forero-guilt I can't think about the guilt of the Nazis any more


----------



## natasha2000

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> @ Natasha: Lol, now you managed to solve that problem for me: I'm feeling so much personal contemporary forero-guilt I can't think about the guilt of the Nazis any more


 
I'm glad I have been SO helpful.... 
Any guilt is better to feel but nazi guilt... 
PD: I am really sorry if I sounded too harsh...


----------



## idania

should spanisch, japanes, even chineesi people feel guilty about what happend many (hunders in some case) years ago? no

but if you don't remember, it could happens again and again and it happens.

human history is saddly and repetitiv


----------



## flame

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> ...But nobody should be blamed NOW for what happened 60 years ago. nobody should feel ashamed ...


just to be precise: nobody not involved in war crime acts from that time ....

We tend to forget that some criminals still are alive, and I don't see it happen that these individuals are actively searched for and brought in front of court. But they still exist. An exampe of ignorance is the case of Heinrich Gross (link in German language is more informative than english )


----------



## natasha2000

flame said:
			
		

> just to be precise: nobody not involved in war crime acts from that time ....
> 
> We tend to forget that some criminals still are alive, and I don't see it happen that these individuals are actively searched for and brought in front of court. But they still exist. An exampe of ignorance is the case of Heinrich Gross (link in German language is more informative than english )


 
Yes, you're right.
By NOW I was referring to people born after the WWII. 
Thanks for pointing out this.


----------



## emma42

Every country has to learn from experiences like the rise of Nazism, what followed; Pol Pot; Pinochet and a host of others.  Germany, obviously, has to learn as well.  It is not particularly helpful, I think, to compare Nazi Germany to things which happened hundreds of years ago, because in some ways, Nazi Germany is a contemporary issue and will remain so until all those alive during those times are dead.

German people have the right to fly their flag and sing whatever songs they like.  The young should feel no guilt at all.  It was nothing to do with them.  I feel no guilt about the British Empire, which I abhor, nor do I feel any pride in Shakespeare, whom I love.


----------



## jimreilly

Everness said:
			
		

> Jim, I have a hard time understanding your logic. Why should there be a disconnect between cognition and feelings? I'm not saying that you should feel guilty for something you didn't do. What I'm saying is that you should feel guilty and even ashamed for things your ancestors did. [there is a contradiction here!] If you study slavery in the US (cognitive function) why wouldn't you feel ashamed --not just guilty-- (emotional function) for what your ancestors did even if you weren't around? You and I weren't around either when we fought against the British and finally obtained our independence. However, many of us feel proud (emotional function) for what these Americans did. Some of us even venerate these patriots as semi-gods for their bravery and accomplishments.
> 
> So for some of us it's logical to feel proud (emotional function) for some cool things our ancestors did [I think it's natural, but not logical] but it's illogical to feel guilty (emotional function) for other naughty things they did? Are we talking here about selective feelings?
> 
> I think that cognitive processes inform feeling processes which in turn inform behavioral processes. Then the full circle starts again. ..... Bottom line: a good historian uses his mind and his heart.



Well, there's one aother technical disconnect here, in that my own (actual) ancestors were not here at all during slavery times--they were still in Italy, Germany, and Ireland, many of them quite poor and in little position to influence the history of anything, as far as I know.

But that aside, since I DO identify as a USA/American, I do feel/use my emotions, and, of course sometimes, depite the illogic of it, I do feel guilty (or proud) of things in my country's history. More often I feel horror, disgust, etc (for the bad things) and pleasure, delight, joy, etc (for the good things). That people could come up with ideas and actions that made the world better, whether those people were my "ancestors" or not, gives me some hope. 

On a more personal level, I am proud, also, of one of my grandmothers, whose poitical views were the cause of her leaving Germany. Again, my pride is natural but quite illogical, and she died long before I was born. I am grateful that her views influenced my father, who, in turn, influenced me, and that those views helped me reject some attitudes prevalent in other family members (quite overt racism, for example). Knowing this helps me understand and determine my own behavior.....


----------



## übermönch

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> @ Übermönch: I guess you're refering to me with this "she"... I just wanted to remind you that I didn't start this thread on if we should feel guilty. I just told the things how they are in the football-thread and told them it feels good for Germans to be alllowed to show pride in their country without being Nazis.
> This should be according to your opinion, that nationalism is about feeling pride as well as shame for his country, share the good and bad parts. I feel shame and guilt for it, so let me be allowed to feel pride without somebody telling me that "50000 Germans singing their anthem" frightens him.
> I don't remember to have given the answer if I think I should feel guilty or not, so I find it quite hard to tell me to "go if I don't like it" (or give my citizenship away).


 I was not refering to you, silly, but to some hypothetical someone. I'm not that rude for god's sake, you know? As what concerns pride and football and stuff, it's up to you  As to what concerns football, I was supporting our team hard and even painted our tricolore on my face... because a female classmate of mine bet with another classmate that she'd come nude to school if we won. We didn't, so the hippy classmate who bet with her had to shave his hippy hair away . Now where were we at? - Pride - the whole pathos of my previous post was trying to make clear that nationalism  and feelings bound to it, wether it's pride or shame are irelevant and stupid, but you cannot run from it since this one stupid thing is still the basis of our modern soceity... 

hmmm... another issue is that I really don't like our anthemn. It's somehow crippled, they either should take or leave the whole song. The GDR one is much cooler, that's something that really fits for a new, reborn Germany...  It sounds great, it makes you proud and adresses the German history thing very wisely and correctly. (Auferstanden aus Ruinen und der zukunft zugewandt -  Laß uns dir zum Guten dienen - Deutschland, einig Vaterland[...]  Laßt das Licht des Friedens scheinen - dass nie eine Mutter mehr - Ihren Sohn beweint. ) ok one line could be cut, "schlagen wir des Volkes Feind"  doesn't really sound nice, but well, it would be crippled as well then. Well, that's another topic.



			
				emma42 said:
			
		

> Every country has to learn from experiences like the rise of Nazism, what followed; Pol Pot; Pinochet and a host of others.


 Germany *is *exeptional because the nazis got elected democratically after Hitler stated his intentions for the next few decades several times very loudly and even wrote a book about that. Thus the guilt cannot be solely written down to the country's leaders. That differs Austria and Germany on that issue.



			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Nobody said it should be forgotten. It shouldn't be forgotten, but you shouldn't feel the way you feel because you didn't do it. This is the point.


 I didn't do it. But I belong to a nation which did. It did it, because it wanted me and it's other descendants to live a nice slave-owner's life in the boundless east. It enslaved people to work on companies like BMW and VolksWagen which still exist and pay a major part of the taxes. Much advance in this country happened solely because it's people decided to rob and ravage the rest of europe. Even the football championship was held on a stadium build by nazis. 60 years and two generations is not much really. From what i've  heared Australians still have problems dealing with the fact it was a criminal colony in the very first days of it's colonization. The nazi epoch is an essential part of German history.



> Somehow I cannot resist to ask, why only Germans should do this? What about other nations? Nazis didn't do what they did because they were Germans, but because they were what they were. There were butchers in other countries too, and concentration camps that were not German during the WWII. What about these nations?


 WW2 was incited by Germany. If there was no unemployment, anger, revanchism and militarism plus Ordnungsliebe in Germany there wouldn't be anything alike in Romania and other affected countries later.


> It is not about the nations, it is about the human being. We all should NOT FORGET what NAZIS and not Germans did, in a hope that one day, a human being will stop to hurt his fellow being.


 Sure, agreed. Nationalism is really false science.


----------



## cirrus

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I think it is a little bit exagerated what you say here:





			
				übermönch said:
			
		

> The allies were planning to make a huge farm ("potato state") out of germany, but it was spared.



I don't think it is, google the Morgenthau plan and you will find references to plans to finish German industry for ever to make sure it wouldn't be a threat in the future.


----------



## natasha2000

cirrus said:
			
		

> I don't think it is, google the Morgenthau plan and you will find references to plans to finish German industry for ever to make sure it wouldn't be a threat in the future.


 
I didn't mean I don't believe it, I meant it is exagerated to give thanks to allies for not doing it. If it were done, it would be exagerated punishment for Germany and its people, and the more time would pass the more ridiculous and without sense it would be.


----------



## cirrus

Some people argue that the policy void when the allies initially occupied Germany after the war meant that for some things the plan was put into place. The Russians ripped any amount of industrial resources out of what became the DDR in the first years of the occupation.  Meanwhile all of Germany was faced with the prospect of starvation - in Germany's cities getting enough food to live was a major issue. You could argue that it was only as the cold war deepened that the allies chose to make their parts of Germany in their own image and even then Germany wasn't treated as an equal by either Russian or the western allies.


----------



## djchak

Those who find this discussion intresting might also find the 
online Carnival of German - American relations intresting. I believe it is run by
Fulbrighters.

http://america-germany.atlanticreview.org/


----------



## Everness

_Quote:
Originally Posted by Everness
Jim, I have a hard time understanding your logic. Why should there be a disconnect between cognition and feelings? I'm not saying that you should feel guilty for something you didn't do. What I'm saying is that you should feel guilty and even ashamed for things your ancestors did. [there is a contradiction here!] If you study slavery in the US (cognitive function) why wouldn't you feel ashamed --not just guilty-- (emotional function) for what your ancestors did even if you weren't around? You and I weren't around either when we fought against the British and finally obtained our independence. However, many of us feel proud (emotional function) for what these Americans did. Some of us even venerate these patriots as semi-gods for their bravery and accomplishments. 

So for some of us it's logical to feel proud (emotional function) for some cool things our ancestors did [I think it's natural, but not logical] but it's illogical to feel guilty (emotional function) for other naughty things they did? Are we talking here about selective feelings?

I think that cognitive processes inform feeling processes which in turn inform behavioral processes. Then the full circle starts again. ..... Bottom line: a good historian uses his mind and his heart. _



Jim, I'm concerned about two disconnects: between the present and the past and between cognition and feelings. *We AREN'T our ancestors but they are OUR ancestors, not someone else's ancestors.* We should claim their heritage. But apparently we are picky heirs: we chose the good things and leave out the ugly. It's true that sometimes we'd rather not remember some things because they are too painful or shameful. If they are too painful or shameful it's because we have never dealt with them appropriately. 

I do agree with my friend Maxi when he argues that we shouldn't be carrying other people's guilt.* Co-dependency is as bad as psychopathy.* Our backpack is already quite heavy to take extra responsibility for other people's sins of commission and omission.  

The purpose of taking a good look at what our forebears did is to have a balanced view of our history as individuals, families, nations and mankind. For example, I wasn't around when the Holocaust took place but I *SHOULD *feel p*ssed for what some human beings did to other human beings. I'm not either Jewish or German but every time I read a book on the subject or I hear someone tell a story about it, I *SHOULD *feel as if this had happened to me. We should then use these strong emotions (anger, indignation, impotence, etc.) to make sure that holocausts don't happen again. But unfortunately they are. Why? I don't think we should just put the responsibility solely on the superpowers or the indigenous governments of some godforsaken African countries. If it's happening to SOMEONE I DON'T KNOW IN DARFUR, it's happening to ME. However, we don't feel their hurt, their pain and we don't get p*ssed. *It's anger, it's being p*ssed off, it's this type of raw feelings duly funneled that produce social changes, not love. * 

Jim, thank you for sharing your story!


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> I do agree with my friend Maxi when he argues that we shouldn't be carrying other people's guilt.* Co-dependency is as bad as psychopathy.* Our backpack is already quite heavy to take extra responsibility for other people's sins of commission and omission.


It's not just their guilt I disown, it's their pride also. The two are, as you say, different sides of the one coin. Coin I have no use for.




> I don't think we should just put the responsibility solely on the superpowers or the indigenous governments of some godforsaken African countries.


Does this God you are so fond of mentioning actually forsake countries?


----------



## Poetic Device

cherine said:
			
		

> I'm quoting a rather long post that astonished my a lot. (I highlited the parts that are, for me, even more shocking)
> 
> I never thought that Germans (considered by many as a great people; hard workers, highly organized, smart....) should feel guilty about things _*some*_ of their ancestors did quite a long time ago.
> It reminded my of that thread about the invaders/invaded thread, but here I'm only talking about Germans. I/my people wasn't/were not of the Nazis' victims, but I know about the horrors they did to millions of people.
> Still, I think it's very unfair to hold modern Germans responsibles -even in an indirect way- for what was done by their rulers more than fifty years ago. It's totally unfair to raise your children with such a huge feeling of guilt for something they weren't even there when it was done.
> 
> How come that a nation, which could rebuild itself from ashes, not feel proud of its acheivement, let alone its History -not the recent one of course- but feel guily of horrors commited by its criminal rulers.
> What do you foer@s think ?
> 
> P.S. I'm sorry if my question offend anyone, but I'm really curious about this.
> P.P.S. Any corrections are, of course, most welcome.


 
I have not read the entire thread, therefore I apologize if I am saying somethingthat has already been said.

     Speaking as a woman of Jewish decent whose ancestors were in the genocide camps, I feel that the Germans of today should not feel any guilt about something that happened almost a century ago.  The past is the past and should only be used as a reference for the future.  The individuals that should feel remorse are the ones that supported the Nazi party and/or assisted the "cleansing".  They not only killed, but they also permenantly damaged people both mentally and physically.  
     The people thatthrew stones at you and called you various names, in my opinion, need to have their heads handed to them.  There is no reason for that, and, I bet you, their families were very minimally affected by the Halocust (if at all).  A pox on them and their house.


----------



## southerngal

I think that in a lot of countries, what one individual does, can bring respect or disrespect for the entire family.  It isn't that way where I live, and I'm glad!

If someone is a German and had no part whatsoever in WWII, then it makes no sense for that person to take the blame.  It's also important to remember that all Germans were not nazis at all.  I do think that we all owe it to all our children to learn history because, of course, the famous saying, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."  Learning from others' mistakes is vital.

Also, if we all dug back far enough, I have no doubt that every country and culture on earth could find some crime that has been committed by its members at some point in history.

I am appalled at the behavior shown towards the original poster, however.  Evidently, it's important to teach children that other children today had NOTHING to do with events of WWII at all!


----------



## castellano

Germany paid a high price for the damages of WWII, and Germans learned from the nazi experience....it'll not be repeated.
Today's Germany should no longer look at this (shameful and disastrous) past, but look to the future. 
Today's Germans are not responsible for the Nazi regime's crimes, so they have nothing to do, nothing to ask for forgiveness for.

Regards.


----------



## jimreilly

[Quote from Southerngal] I think that in a lot of countries, what one individual does, can bring respect or disrespect for the entire family. It isn't that way where I live, and I'm glad!
[end quote]

I do not quite understand these sentences, sorry.


----------



## panjabigator

This may be irrelated, but do Germany and Israel have good relations with each other?


----------



## mansio

Yes, they have. In the seventies when I travelled in Israel I met groups of young Germans that went there to help and try to compensate for what their parents did to the Jews. I don't know if that still goes on today.


----------



## claudine2006

It's hard to forget what Germans did. The II World War finished just 61 years ago. Some of the people that lived the war are still alive. I can't forget my grandma speaking about German bombs or my granfather telling me about German camps. And they were not Jewish.
I've listen to somebody speaking German for the first time when I moved to Spain. Until that moment, listen to German language was listen to nazis speaking (from films). 
I feel guilty for what Italians did during the war against Libya. And it was 1917. 
Anyway I think it depends on anyone's conscience.


----------



## Whodunit

Should some family in the US feel guilty for what Bush did to Iraq? Should an Israeli child feel guilty about the victims in Lebanon? Should I feel guilty about chopping down the Rain Forest?

I think the answer is always "no". And why? Because why should one single person feel guilty about what another person did or does? If my brother brakes a toy car of my sister's, I wouldn't feel guilty at all, because I haven't done it.

I don't feel guilty about what Hitler, the Stasi, Honecker, or even Stalin did. I do feel sorry for the victims, but not guilty. I have the impression, though, that many (mostly older) German citizins still feel some guilt for things they have never done and would never do. In exchange, if I meet an Israeli, I won't expect him to blame me for his ancestors' deaths. And I wouldn't expect that any German really wishes a new Hitler, although several uneducated persons - mainly children and teens pretend to do so.


----------



## jimreilly

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Should some family in the US feel guilty for what Bush did to Iraq? Should an Israeli child feel guilty about the victims in Lebanon? Should I feel guilty about chopping down the Rain Forest?
> 
> I think the answer is always "no". And why? Because why should one single person feel guilty about what another person did or does?
> 
> *Sorry, I can't agree here, and I'll stick to the example of my own country, because what it does while I am alive and kicking is in some small part my responsibility. Even if I didn't vote for Bush, I still am represented in Washington, I pay taxes, and I do not protest or resist my country's policies more strongly. Some little bit of my money has paid for atrocities, as well as for some good things. This is far different than feeling responsibile for something my ancestors did. *


----------



## panjabigator

I have never once felt guilty about Bush's rampages in the middle east and Afghanistan.  I never agreed with them, but I never once felt guilty, like it was my fault.  There is no reason for Germans to feel guilty; it is not their fault that the Holocaust occured.


----------



## rsweet

As I read through this thread, what came to mind was the difference between guilt and shame. I don't feel guilty about what's being done in Iraq. I didn't do these things myself, and I've done everything that's in my power as a peaceful citizen to vote against and demonstrate against the war. I do feel shame though. I remember watching _Farenheit 911_ and seeing young soldiers talking about their favorite music soundtrack to listen to in their tank as they were blasting away in Iraq. I was very ashamed. I think it's the shame that lingers, not necessarily the guilt. Or an I splitting symantic hairs?


----------



## natasha2000

rsweet said:
			
		

> As I read through this thread, I'm what came to mind was the difference between guilt and shame. I don't feel guilty about what's being done in Iraq. I didn't do these things myself, and I've done everything that's in my power as a peaceful citizen to vote against and demonstrate against the war. I do feel shame though. I remember watching _Farenheit 911_ and seeing young soldiers talking about their favorite music soundtrack to listen to in their tank as they were blasting away in Iraq. I was very ashamed. I think it's the shame that lingers, not necessarily the guilt. Or an I splitting symantic hairs?


 
No Rsweet, I don't think you're splitting the symantic hairs. I thik you're right.  I can tell the same about Srebrenica. I don't feel guilty. But I feel ashamed for belonging to the same nation as people who did it.


----------



## Poetic Device

jimreilly said:
			
		

> [Quote from Southerngal] I think that in a lot of countries, what one individual does, can bring respect or disrespect for the entire family. It isn't that way where I live, and I'm glad!
> [end quote]
> 
> I do not quite understand these sentences, sorry.


  An example of this would be old China (I'm not too sure about today's China).  What the progeny did or who they married (in the woman's case) either honored or dishonored the family.  Basically, in lamest terms the more you and your family had something to brag about, the more honor you had.  (I know I am going to get yelled at for that one.  I'm sorry, but I had no other way to explain my thoughts on that!  I'm sorry!!!! )


----------



## Poetic Device

jimreilly said:
			
		

> Whodunit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Should some family in the US feel guilty for what Bush did to Iraq? Should an Israeli child feel guilty about the victims in Lebanon? Should I feel guilty about chopping down the Rain Forest?
> 
> I think the answer is always "no". And why? Because why should one single person feel guilty about what another person did or does?
> 
> *Sorry, I can't agree here, and I'll stick to the example of my own country, because what it does while I am alive and kicking is in some small part my responsibility. Even if I didn't vote for Bush, I still am represented in Washington, I pay taxes, and I do not protest or resist my country's policies more strongly. Some little bit of my money has paid for atrocities, as well as for some good things. This is far different than feeling responsibile for something my ancestors did. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But still, you as one person can only do so much.  You cannot control what another person says, thinks or does so therefore you should not under any circumstances feel guilt over what another being has done.  If you would like to look at it from another view, try this one:  you said that you don't demonstrate or what have you.  Well, is it because of your exceptionally busy schedule?  If the reason is not for a very good reason then maybe you should feel guilt because you are not doing everything that you can do.  Is this making any sense, or is it _Return of the dork_?
Click to expand...


----------



## GenJen54

Could we please stick to the topic of contemporary Germans feeling guilt over the Holocaust, and/or societal guilt in general.

China, the current U.S. and similar topics are not what this thread is about. 

Thank you.


----------



## Cereth

i don´t know why i didn´t see this thread before, many of you have said things that I agree with, but i just want to give my opinion due to the fact that i admire and respect the german people so much.
Is not the country the one to be shamed but the people who committed such atrocities.
We are part of a culture and nation but we cannot be responsible for the things people do, we are just responsible of our own..

Go Germany!


----------



## ampurdan

I haven't read all the thread through, so I beg your pardon if my opinion shows up as redundant.

As for Germans, they shouldn't feel guilty for it insofar as they didn't do it, but they should feel ashamed. 

As for their Government, it must repair all the evil done by their predecessors. Fortunately, the present-day German Governments seems to act acording to this duty... Maybe some other Governments should learn from it.


----------



## maxiogee

ampurdan said:
			
		

> As for Germans, they shouldn't feel guilty for it insofar as they didn't do it, but they should feel ashamed.


I fail to see how someone could feel shame for something they didn't do.




> As for their Government, it must repair all the evil done by their predecessors. Fortunately, the present-day German Governments seems to act acording to this duty... Maybe some other Governments should learn from it.


Does this extend to all governments? I'm thinking of the wrongs done to their Republican prisoners by the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War. I'm reading a book called *Brigadista* by _Bob Doyle_, the last living Irishman to have fought in the International Brigade.

I ask this as a rhetorical question, because I don't agree that governments have a duty to repair past wrongs - they cannot be liable for them any more than individuals who were not then in existence can be liable. Who _do_ bear responsibility are surviving members of governments which did grievous wrongs deliberately.


----------



## ampurdan

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I fail to see how someone could feel shame for something they didn't do.


 
Call it how you please, but I'm referring to the same feeling you would have if you happened to discover that your father was a merciless murderer.



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Does this extend to all governments? I'm thinking of the wrongs done to their Republican prisoners by the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War.


That was precisely what I had in mind when I called governments to learn from the German one.



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> I ask this as a rhetorical question


,
What a pity! 



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> because I don't agree that governments have a duty to repair past wrongs - they cannot be liable for them any more than individuals who were not then in existence can be liable. Who _do_ bear responsibility are surviving members of governments which did grievous wrongs deliberately.


 
I think they are subsidiary responsibles and they must repair the evil done by their predecessors, they have the same personalitu in law.


----------



## Fernando

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Does this extend to all governments? I'm thinking of the wrongs done to their Republican prisoners by the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War. I'm reading a book called *Brigadista* by _Bob Doyle_, the last living Irishman to have fought in the International Brigade.



Maybe you should read also what the other Irishmen (Franco's) had to say.

The government of democracy paid reparations to some individuals and Republican soldiers, conceded Spanish nationality to those Brigadistas who demanded and gave back properties seized to Rep. political parties and unions (much of them stolen to their owners, anyway).

Nowadays the government is to pass a "Historical Memory Act" to grant further reparations and to remove Franco's monuments.

Me and other Spaniards think that things have gone too far, since nobody is removing new monuments to Rep. politicians (many of them criminals of war or hate preachers) and the main war criminal is nowadays an undisturbed old guy who appears in TV from time to time and has been secretary (leader) of Communist Party for 20 years.


----------



## maxiogee

Fernando said:
			
		

> Maybe you should read also what the other Irishmen (Franco's) had to say.


I don't intend to. This book is not very well written, but it was written by someone who fought for what I see as "the right side". I do not read works defending the actions of fascists. I know enough about General Eoin O'Duffy's _Blueshirts_ here in Ireland (and how they were tools of the Church). It was not a pretty time in Irish politics.



> Me and other Spaniards think that things have gone too far, since nobody is removing new monuments to Rep. politicians (many of them criminals of war or hate preachers) and the main war criminal is nowadays an undisturbed old guy who appears in TV from time to time and has been secretary (leader) of Communist Party for 20 years.


I agree with you that there were war crimes on both sides, but I was commenting solely on the call to "governments" to atone for the actions of past governments.


----------



## Poetic Device

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I think they are subsidiary responsibles and they must repair the evil done by their predecessors, they have the same personalitu in law.


 
I agree that they should at least attempt to undo what the last generation or so did, however, I believe that they have already accomplished that.  I realize that no one will ever get their loved ones back, but see that's just it.  What's done is done and I don't see how calling someone on the street a Nazi will help any.


----------



## Fernando

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I agree with you that there were war crimes on both sides, but I was commenting solely on the call to "governments" to atone for the actions of past governments.



Agreed. Anyway, in the Spanish case (and in the context of a civil affair) both Government and Parliament have expressed regret and have paid reparations (not in all cases).


----------



## Poetic Device

Just for the sake of asking, where would you draw the reimbursement line?  (i.e. Should the United States Government still pay retribution to the African Americans for the slavery acts?)


----------



## Mate

Fernando said:


> 1) Well, some Germans are still alive from those who entered into the WWII. The youngest (enlisted) fighter will currently be in his 70s, while actual responsibles will be around 85.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, and regrettably many of them are still not only alive but well, living in my country. Nevertheless, most of them were extradited.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) I think there is a limit for apologies. I certainly would have demanded apologies from the Germans after the war (they did apologise), but 60 years after is enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with you again, Fernando.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure about the cases when the involved country has never apologised and we are still close to the facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In my country (Argentina) the bloody gang of genocides that ruled us between 1976 and 1983 did never regret or apologize about a thing to anyone, despite the horrible crimes they committed. Risking to state something that is far from the topic, I consider myself a survivor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Those who are proud of Beethoven, Leibinitz, Goethe or Clausewitz should feel some shame for Hitler and his mariachi. They should examine how the German culture (if there is such a thing) could produce the best and the worst.
> 
> Maybe all Europeans/Westerners (humans?) should examine it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I could not agree more.*
Click to expand...

 
Mateamargo


----------



## Talant

No, why blame the Germans for something theyr parents or grandparents did? In  fact, even blaming someone for something that he himself did 65 years ago is unfair. He might have repented and be quite a different man.

However, the Germans, as every other nationality in the world, must look at the Germans of the 30s-40s and learn what not to do. We must forget who did the crime but remember forever the crime.


----------



## winklepicker

Krümelmonster said:


> We grow up feeling guilty, we go to France to school exchanges and they throw stones on us calling us Nazis, we go to Spain and they shout "Heil Hitler", and we have the feeling they have the right to do that...


 
The only people that have the right to behave like this are those whose nations have never perpetrated any similar atrocities. That excludes every nation I can think of - and certainly France, Spain and Britain (where I come from).

We should focus on our own behaviour. We have no reason to apologise for our ancestors' behaviour if we deprecate it - nor any reason to feel pride in their achievements. We certainly should never feel superiority based on _past_ achievements.

"This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them..." _Robert Heinlein_


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

I don't know. I know many Germans who went to my school and none of them feel guilty about what the Nazis did. Why should they, _they_ didn't do it.

If the Germans should feel guilty, then surely the Americans should be held equally as guilty for their genocidal policies against the natives or the British vis-a-vis their colonies. I just don't see why people today should be held responsible for the crimes of their forefathers, unless they're still perpetrating the crimes of course.

However I do think the German government is a little caught up on it, wanting to pass E.U wide Holocaust denial legislation and all.


----------



## TRG

winklepicker said:


> The only people that have the right to behave like this are those whose nations have never perpetrated any similar atrocities. That excludes every nation I can think of - and certainly France, Spain and Britain (where I come from).
> 
> We should focus on our own behaviour. We have no reason to apologise for our ancestors' behaviour if we deprecate it - nor any reason to feel pride in their achievements. We certainly should never feel superiority based on _past_ achievements.
> 
> "This sad litttle lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them..." _Robert Heinlein_


 
Persecution of Jews is a thread that runs through the history of virtually every European country. It is the reason that the Zionist movement begain in the 1890's. It is the reason for the Balfour declaration. It culminated in the Holocaust which propelled into existance the state of Israel in 1948. The conflict between Israel and the Arabs that has been going on ever since is the bitter residue of the historic persecution of Jews by Europeans in general. For reasons I cannot comprehend, Europeans project an attitude of disengagement from this problem, preferring to let the problem be solved by others or to let the Jews and Arabs fight it out. So I don't think Germans should feel guilty about Hitler any more than Spaniards should feel guilty about Tomas de Torquemada, but to the extent we have ongoing problems which resulted from past behavior of their governments and their people, well, I'd be ok with a little more angst about that.


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## Cicerón

No, they shouldn't.


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## Mate

Perhaps the word "guilty" is too strong. 

Perhaps -and just perhaps- "ashamed" is more appropriate.

Nonetheless, and as stated before by many other fellow foreros, Germans are not the only ones supposed to feel that way regarding the unspeakable atrocities committed by their ancestors.

The list of nations which should be ashamed for their abominable past deeds -or better said, their ancestors' deeds- is way too long. 

I would not dare to point out which nation has the more than dubious honor to hold the first place. 

Saludos - Mateamargo


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## winklepicker

TRG said:


> to the extent we have ongoing problems which resulted from past behavior of their governments and their people, well, I'd be ok with a little more angst about that.


 
I hear what you say, but the angst would be unproductive. Dwelling on the past (good or bad) won't help us - we have to look forward. 

Persecution is not limited to the Jews - historically or otherwise. The kulaks under Stalin, the victims of Pol Pot, the Mothers of the Disappeared and innumerable others bear witness. The Palestinians would say they were victims too. I make no judgments - merely note the facts.

What might be productive would be to try to help solve the problems. Although my government is not contributing here in the way that I would like, I try to take every opportunity to tell it to mend its ways. For myself, I try to promote harmony rather than the opposite: what can one person do otherwise?


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## TRG

winklepicker said:


> I hear what you say, but the angst would be unproductive. Dwelling on the past (good or bad) won't help us - we have to look forward.
> 
> Persecution is not limited to the Jews - historically or otherwise. The kulaks under Stalin, the victims of Pol Pot, the Mothers of the Disappeared and innumerable others bear witness. The Palestinians would say they were victims too. I make no judgments - merely note the facts.
> 
> What might be productive would be to try to help solve the problems. Although my government is not contributing here in the way that I would like, I try to take every opportunity to tell it to mend its ways. For myself, I try to promote harmony rather than the opposite: what can one person do otherwise?


 
First, I have to apologize for my earlier post because it was caused by my misreading of your post to which I was responding. Somehow, I read included instead of excluded. So I actually agree with you. 

The question of guilt over historical events is an issue that confronts most societies. It is easy to make moral judgements about things in the past because we have the benefit of hindsight. I'm sure there are people in Germany who feel guilt about the Holocaust just as there are people in the US who feel guilt about slavery even though their ancestors may not have been here while it was going on. There is another set of people who attempt to capitalize on the feeling of guilt for political, economic, or social gain. However, when the problems of the past continue into the present day, society should feel some sort of collective guilt or at least a moral responsibility to correct the continuation of past injustices or the consequences thereof.


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## winklepicker

Krümelmonster said:


> Now, british press said it shows we're still Nazis because the black spot in the middle of the footballs face is not a nose but Hitler's beard...


 
Was the above quote really published? Can you give us a link to it?

Krümelmonster, I'd be the first to agree that the worst of the British press (not all) is a pile of s**t and I'm ashamed of it. But I'm getting the feeling that you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder - possibly justified, I admit! - and maybe you protest too much?


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## winklepicker

TRG said:


> I actually agree with you.
> 
> ...when the problems of the past continue into the present day, society should feel some sort of collective guilt or at least a moral responsibility to correct the continuation of past injustices or the consequences thereof.


 
And I agree with you!   However, I think we all have that responsibility to correct past injustices - as far as we can - irrespective of whether our countries were involved or not. I don't see how the actions of our national forefathers make us more or less responsible for the future well-being of our fellow-men.


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## winklepicker

ampurdan said:


> As for Germans, they shouldn't feel guilty for it insofar as they didn't do it, but they should feel ashamed.
> 
> As for their Government, it must repair all the evil done by their predecessors. Fortunately, the present-day German Governments seems to act acording to this duty... Maybe some other Governments should learn from it.


 
Ampurdan, it's easy to take the moral high ground. I don't see the Spanish government doing much in the way of reparations to the Aztecs (any more than the British are making good the harm that slavery did Africa).

As I said before, we can only criticise if our own national history is pure and innocent - and none of them are.


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## ampurdan

winklepicker said:


> Ampurdan, it's easy to take the moral high ground. I don't see the Spanish government doing much in the way of reparations to the Aztecs (any more than the British are making good the harm that slavery did Africa).
> 
> As I said before, we can only criticise if our own national history is pure and innocent - and none of them are.


 
Spain and the UK are the same legal entitity now, two hundred and four hundred years ago. Today, it is difficult to prove what damages and benefits come from their respective colonization, so even if possible, it would be very hard for a claim against them to be successful, but I think these Governments should have some moral concern with the deeds of their predecessors.

Anyway, that's not the case with XX century abuses, they are more easily proved. Of course, that includes Spain as well.


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## ZoltanS

I am a half Jew, half Catholic from Hungary who never got to meet his grandparents because they were shipped off to Auschwitz. I feel no resentment toward contemporary Germans, and I don't  think they should have to bear the burden of the Nazi guilt.  However, I do believe Germans have a great responsibility to ensure that all prejudice be confronted and punished publicly so the lesson is never forgotten. 

This responsibility also applies to countries that had slaves or mistreated any people of ethnicity, gender or religious beliefs. We all need to take responsibility to treat each other as equals.

Modern day Germany is a wonderful place, but there are still pockets of racism sprouting up all the time, just as there are here in the USA.  Good people should be vigilant and stand up to ignorant racists. It's a never-ending fight for what is right.

Don't feel guilty. Feel proud of the good that's been built!  If we all fight to keep our neighborhoods decent the world will be a harmonious place for all.


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## maxiogee

ZoltanS said:


> I am a half Jew, half Catholic


 
  How can one be 'half' a religion?




> However, I do believe Germans have a great responsibility to ensure that all prejudice be confronted and punished publicly so the lesson is never forgotten.


I don't believe that Germans have any greater responsibility in this regard than any other nationality.
As you point out, there were other countries which had problems with ethnic inequalities and I think singling out Germany and the Germans lets them off the hook. It also perpetuates the myth that only the Jews were victims of the eugenics-based attitudes which abounded in many countries at the start of the 20th century and which led to the rise of the Nazis.


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## Veggy

Feeling guilty is not useful. I think all people, I mean everybody, should feel responsable for what happened and try to understand What exactly happened, how and why and what made it possible, with the purpose to do everything possible (and more) so that it does not happen again.


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## John-Paul

I don't think it's fair to ask questions like these because you'll never get it right. How can anyone not feel guilty about the Holocaust? I think where we all should be feeling guilty about is the fact that we haven't learned anything from WWII. We went from the 'final solution' to the 'ultimate solution' where the whole world was to be destroyed. Just a few buttons, and boom! We'd be all gone. And still people arent outraged. The only difference between the Germans and everybody else right now is that the Germans put their guilt to work.


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## ZoltanS

Maxiogee, 

I guess you just breezed over my statement where I mention that "This responsibility also applies to countries that had slaves or mistreated any people of ethnicity, gender or religious beliefs. We all need to take responsibility to treat each other as equals."

However, now that you  bring it up, YES, I believe the PEOPLE of Germany should lead the world in setting an example of ensuring equality and eradicating ignorance, due to the magnitude of deaths resulting from the war (over 50 million). And, I believe the PEOPLE of the United States should be second in this effort for their role in slavery and the deaths resulting form the Civil War. When the PEOPLE don't stand up for what's right you end up with crazy leaders like G. Bush that get you into senseless wars like IRAQ. 

In answer to your question about being half a religion, I can only say that being a child with a Jewish parent and a Catholic parent caused me to only give half an effort to each religion.


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## maxiogee

ZoltanS said:


> Maxiogee,
> 
> I guess you just breezed over my statement where I mention that "This responsibility also applies to countries that had slaves or mistreated any people of ethnicity, gender or religious beliefs. We all need to take responsibility to treat each other as equals."



No, I didn't 'breeze over it', I specifically alluded to it when I said "as you point out".

I don't see how you can go from Germans and their 'responsibility', through slavery in America and the US Civil War, to end up with a statement such as "When the PEOPLE don't stand up for what's right you end up with crazy leaders like G. Bush that get you into senseless wars like IRAQ."

'People' did stand up, and do still, in many countries and it avails them nothing.
'People' have stood up for years and still the lunacy of our political leaders wins the day. 'People' in short don't care in sufficient numbers, in most countries, to make a difference - or, seeing different criteria than outsiders do, they vote for the 'wrong' person/party and the insanity continues. We must not make the mistake of judging foreign countries by the standards we as outsiders see. They see things differently, and make their choices accordingly.


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## vbergen

I think germans should *not* feel guilty "about things _*some*_ of their ancestors did". Why you must to pay for your great-great-great grandparents did? it doesn't matter if they stole, killed or whatever, beacuse *they did it*, not you. And do the americans feel guilty because they kill lot of people in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Panama, Vietnam (Napalm, orange agent, see http://www.elmundo.es/elmundosalud/2004/02/06/medicina/1076082619.html still are borning babies with mutations), ...and many other places even their native indians? remember they gave the indians sheets with smallpox, they killed (and still kill) a lot of people, but they don't feel guilty because they thought (and think) they are right and the others are wrong, so, the germans in the Second World War, could think the same, but now, they recognize the big and terrible mistake, but the other countries who kill other people don't do it. but not only americans, Japan for example, they kill lot of chinese people and they don't feel guilty. Romans killed lot of people, and in all the history there is blood, and they aren't guilties.

My best wishes for the new generation of germans, don't feel guilty, you don't have to pay for the history.


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## frog

I don't think contemporary Germans should feel guilty. They recognize the full extent of the misdeeds of their ancestors and have done much since then to attempt to make amends for their crimes.

What is interesting is that what Imperial Japan did in, but not limited to, WWII is arguably worse than the crimes of Nazi Germany (and it certainly is in many areas). Japan continues to deny and hide the extent of their war crimes, while Germany has made it public. Japan praises their war criminals, while Germany denounces them. Which nation receives more controversy for their actions in WW2? (hint: see thread title).

America has given *significantly* more compensation to Japan for what they did in WWII than what Japan has to its victims (the minimum amount under their terms of surrender). Yet America commonly receives more criticism for Hiroshima and Nagasaki alone (not including their carpet bombing of civilian cities, which killed many times more), than Japan does for all of its imperial history.

So, to answer the question again, hiding your brutal war crimes is significantly better than trying to correct them -- so it's also best for the Germans that they don't feel bad.

Just for giggles,
The English wiki on Japanese war crimes
The Japanese wiki on Japanese war crimes

Run it through babelfish and note that the Japanese article almost exclusively talks about what happened to the Japanese after WW2, and says nothing on the actual crimes committed.


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