# Pronunciation: calm down, come down (cawm, com)



## Mr Bones

Hello, everybody. I'd like to ask you about the pronunciation of these two verbs: *calm down* and *come down *(or calm and come, I don't know if it matters at all). I think I know the theory and, according to it, the only difference is located in the vowel quality: 
 
/kɑ:m/ and /kʌm/
 
But my question is: don't you ever get mixed up with it? I think that, in many cases (I'm not saying always), the pronunciation is practically identical and only the context prevent you from get it wrong. What do you think? 
 
Thank you, Mr Bones.


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## deegee_sister

Mr Bones said:


> /kɑ:m/ and /kʌm/
> 
> But my question is: don't you ever get mixed up with it? I think that, in many cases (I'm not saying always), the pronunciation is practically identical and only the context prevent you from get it wrong. What do you think?
> 
> Thank you, Mr Bones.


 
Depends where you go and who you're speaking with. In the UK, the pronunciation would be almost identical, as you pointed out. However, in North America, we tend to pronounce our "l"s much more, so you would definitely hear a difference. Same with the "r"s. 

Cheers,
dee gee


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## Dimcl

I don't find those words identical, Mr. Bones. I pronounce the "ca" in "calm" like the sound of a crow (caw) or "comet" (caw-mit). I pronounce "come" like "gum".


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## Mr Bones

Thank you, both. My experience is that I have trouble differentiating these two words (especially with British people, films, etc., I agree), and I have to resort to the context, which, by the way, is the normal way of doing things. 

The question occurred to me because once I said "calm down" to Mr Bones (the Border Collie you can see in the photo) and an Australian friend who was with me told me that I'd actually asked her (Mr Bones is a girl) to *come down.*

Thank you, Mr Bones (master)


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## Toepicker

Hi Mr Bones,

As a speaker from Northern England, I pronounce the two words very differently:

calm = _karm_ (as in arm with a 'k' at the front)

come = _kum_ (not _kam, _as in 'standard' or southern pronunciation)

However, I can see how standard pronunciation could confuse the two words.

Regards.


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## panjandrum

Toepicker said:


> Hi Mr Bones,
> 
> As a speaker from Northern England Ireland, I pronounce the two words very differently:
> 
> calm = _karm (as in arm with a 'k' at the front)_ cam
> 
> come = _kum_ (not _kam, _as in 'standard' or southern pronunciation)
> 
> However, I can see how standard pronunciation could confuse the two words.
> 
> Regards.


Sorry for hijacking your post Toepicker, but with the change in vowel sound as indicated, it expresses exactly what I want to say.


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## darthnick

Hi everybody!
I'd like to know, Is it possible to pronunce the word 'calm' in this way - 'ko(l)m ? ( in America or somewhere else )


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## Tabac

darthnick said:


> Hi everybody!
> I'd like to know, Is it possible to pronunce the word 'calm' in this way - 'ko(l)m ? ( in America or somewhere else )


I'm not sure I understand your pronunciation guide, but I think I can answer your question.  There are a few words in English in which, traditionally, the 'l' is not pronounced.  However, since most people do pronounce the 'l', that tradition has been lost.  Examples:  calm, palm, balm.  These all have a broad 'a', as in 'f*a*r'.


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## la reine victoria

darthnick said:


> Hi everybody!
> I'd like to know, Is it possible to pronunce the word 'calm' in this way - 'ko(l)m ? ( in America or somewhere else )


 



Welcome to WR forums. Darthnick.

In British English we say "carm" - rhymes with "arm".

I can't speak for our US cousins.  




LRV


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## sweetpotatoboy

Tabac said:


> There are a few words in English in which, traditionally, the 'l' is not pronounced. However, since most people do pronounce the 'l', that tradition has been lost. Examples: calm, palm, balm. These all have a broad 'a', as in 'f*a*r'.


 
This surprises me. Are you telling us that Americans pronounce the "l" in calm, balm etc?? My impression is that this is certainly not the case. I can imagine that the vowel sound is not the same as in British English, but I would not expect the "l" to be enunciated.


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## badgrammar

Oh, yes, we do !  I would say it is Kahlm or Bahlm if I were pronouncing carefully.  If I'm speaking quickly it may well becom Kahm or Bahm.


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## sweetpotatoboy

badgrammar said:


> Oh, yes, we do ! I would say it is Kahlm or Bahlm if I were pronouncing carefully. If I'm speaking quickly it may well becom Kahm or Bahm.


 
Happy to stand corrected! I looked at several American dictionaries online and they all gave pronunciations without an 'l' sound. But Merriam Webster also included additional possible pronunications that included an 'l' sound, so you learn something every day!


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## darthnick

thanks for your answers


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## MissFit

Almost all Americans pronounce the L in _balm_, _calm_, and _palm_.  I believe the L is dropped in parts of New England and in a few isolated parts of the Deep South, but I'm not absolutely sure.


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## Joelline

Most people in my neck of the woods do NOT pronounce the "L" in calm or palm (I'm not sure about "balm": it's not used frequently enough outside of church hymns to be certain, but I don't pronounce it). Many also do not pronounce the "L" in almond (aw-mund--stress on the first syllable)!


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## languageGuy

The 'L' is NOT usually pronounced here either.  In fact, the only time I have ever heard the 'L' pronounced is when people are reading aloud.  Something about seeing an 'L' on the page compels them to pronounce it.


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## liliput

Toepicker said:


> Hi Mr Bones,
> 
> As a speaker from Northern England, I pronounce the two words very differently:
> 
> calm = _karm_ (as in arm with a 'k' at the front)
> 
> come = _kum_ (not _kam, _as in 'standard' or southern pronunciation)
> 
> However, I can see how standard pronunciation could confuse the two words.
> 
> Regards.



I concur. I'm also from NW England.


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## sound shift

Sorry, Mr Bones, but I don't agree with your assertion in post #1 that "in many cases the pronunciation is practically identical". There is a difference in vowel quality and in length. I don't recall hearing or seeing any sort of confusion arising from the similarity between these two words, even in south-eastern pronunciation. It is not the case that only the context indicates which of the two is being spoken. This type of difference is particularly difficult for Spanish speakers because Spanish has only five vowel phonemes, so the differences between the Spanish vowels are large, whereas English has twelve vowel phonemes (if I remember rightly), with correspondingly smaller differences between them.


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## majlo

Sound shift, is it also the case in rapid speech? Is "calm" distinguishable from "come" then?

Panjandrum, do you also pronounce "come" /kum/?  Cor blimey, I can't say how much I love the northern accent. I could listen to it for hours at a time.


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## timpeac

sound shift said:


> Sorry, Mr Bones, but I don't agree with your assertion in post #1 that "in many cases the pronunciation is practically identical". There is a difference in vowel quality and in length. I don't recall hearing or seeing any sort of confusion arising from the similarity between these two words, even in south-eastern pronunciation. It is not the case that only the context indicates which of the two is being spoken. This type of difference is particularly difficult for Spanish speakers because Spanish has only five vowel phonemes, so the differences between the Spanish vowels are large, whereas English has twelve vowel phonemes (if I remember rightly), with correspondingly smaller differences between them.


Same here (southern English). I agree that the vowels aren't massively different, but different they are - particularly because of the length difference. I'm not aware of any misunderstandings caused by native speakers mishearing these vowels.


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## sound shift

majlo said:


> Sound shift, is it also the case in rapid speech? Is "calm" distinguishable from "come" then?


Yes it is, because even in rapid speech "calm" has a different quality from "come" and is much longer. In my experience, many students of EFL or ESL pronounce the English long vowels too short; it may seem to these students that there is little difference between a short vowel and a long one, but there is in fact a lot.

These differences can be difficult for a non-native to hear at first, but they will come with practice.


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## majlo

I'm just trying to pronounce the two expressions, and my observation is that in the case of "calm down" there's a greater deal of aspiration (which may also help distinguish the two expressions). Would you agree?


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## sound shift

majlo said:


> I'm just trying to pronounce the two expressions, and my observation is that in the case of "calm down" there's a greater deal of aspiration (which may also help distinguish the two expressions). Would you agree?


I don't think aspiration is the right word. The vocal chords vibrate for longer in the case of "calm"; this requires a more "energetic" pronunciation. I am sure there are members who can express this in more technical/academic terms.


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## majlo

If you mean a puff of air being blown from one's mouth by "energetic pronunciation", then, I think, aspiration works here.


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## berndf

sound shift said:


> I don't think aspiration is the right word. The vocal chords vibrate for longer in the case of "calm"; this requires a more "energetic" pronunciation. I am sure there are members who can express this in more technical/academic terms.


I agree. The distinctive feature is vowel length and nothing else. There maybe a minor difference in vowel quality (/ɑ/ is more open than /ʌ/) but, in practical terms, it is vowel quantity which makes confusion impossible.





majlo said:


> If you mean a puff of air being blown from one's  mouth by "energetic pronunciation", then, I think, aspiration works  here.


No,  aspiration is unvoiced. Sound shift is talking about a prolonged vowel. In addition, "come" and "calm" are both pronounced with a aspirated /k/ (the letter "c"); in British English more markedly than in American English.


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## majlo

Inasmuch as I can agree the vowel quality is the key feature which allows to distinguish between "come" and "calm", I believe aspiration has also something to do with telling them apart. Since it _is _a longer vowel, the puff of air must naturally be relatively stronger than in the case of "come", which may help discern the difference.



berndf said:


> No,  aspiration is unvoiced.


What do you mean?


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## berndf

majlo said:


> I believe aspiration has also something to do with telling them apart.


Aspiration modifies the preceding consonant. The difference between "come" /kʌm/ and "gum" /kʌm/ has something to do with aspiration but not the difference between "calm" and "come". An unaspirated /k/ could be confused with /g/, especially in British English. BE is not as radical as German where aspiration is the ONLY difference between /k/ and /g/ but almost.


majlo said:


> What do you mean?


Sound shift wrote "The vocal chords vibrate for longer in the case of 'calm'; this requires  a more 'energetic' pronunciation" he described a voiced process. The vocal cords do not vibrate in aspiration.


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## JulianStuart

This type of discussion cries our for audio 

Type "come fun  calm farm" and select Audrey UK at this online pronunciation audio site and you will hear the marked difference in length _and_ difference in quality.  The r in farm is not pronounced by this non-rhotic speaker but the broad a is similar to that in calm.


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## berndf

JulianStuart said:


> This type of discussion cries our for audio
> 
> Type "come fun  calm farm" and select Audrey UK at this online pronunciation audio site and you will hear the marked difference in length _and_ difference in quality.  The r in farm is not pronounced by this non-rhotic speaker but the broad a is similar to that in calm.


Of course, there is a difference in quantity and quality. But I am convinced that quantity is more important than quality in this particular case. I am convinced that */kɑm/ would be understood as "come" and */kʌ:m/ as "calm". But it would be interesting to put this to a test.


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## cuchuflete

berndf said:


> I agree. The distinctive feature is vowel length and nothing else.


  I couldn't disagree more heartily.  In AE there is a great difference in vowel quality, or whatever term you may prefer to describe vastly different vowel sounds.




> There maybe a minor difference in vowel quality (/ɑ/ is more open than /ʌ/) but, in practical terms, it is vowel quantity which makes confusion impossible.


Bah! Humbug!  Leaving aside the clearly pronounced "l" in AE, the vowel in calm is like that in _bah!_  It is impossible to confuse that vowel sound with come, which shares a vowel sound with bum.
.
.
_________________
This is merely my larval stage. You should see me when I pupate.


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## berndf

cuchuflete said:


> Bah! Humbug!  Leaving aside the clearly pronounced "l" in AE, the vowel in calm is like that in _bah!_  It is impossible to confuse that vowel sound with come, which shares a vowel sound with bum.


Do you want to tell me you would hear */kʌ:m/ as "come"?


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## cuchuflete

Sorry berndf,
I have never heard IPA.  I hear spoken words, and calm and come do not, in AE, share vowel sounds that are even slightly similar.  

I'll have a look at an IPA site and then try to answer your question.  

OK, according to Random House Unabridged dictionary, calm is pronounced in a variety of ways.  Here is what they show for "spelled pronunciation" and for IPA--

 kahm; older kam; spelling pron. kahlm
kɑm; older kæm; spelling pron. kɑlm/


As to */kʌ:m/, here's what I've found for the components other than the ":"  --

/k/    can, speaker, stick 
/ʌ/    up, mother, mud
/m/    make, summer, time

That seems to fit.  Come rhymes with the first syllable of summer and with some.


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## JulianStuart

berndf,
It seems I'm as _au fait_ with IPA as cuchu is, but it seems as though you are asking

1) if we lengthen the duration - but not change the "quality" of the vowel sound - in come - perhaps going from */kʌm/ to */kʌ:m/, would we hear it as come or calm?  I would hear it as a longer version of come and it would  not have the necessary a quality to it to be confused with calm (even though_ I _don't say the L)
2) Similarly saying calm more quickly than normal speaking speed would _not_ give it a ʌ sound and it would remain, with its _unchanged a_ quality, unmistakable as calm, just shorter.


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## natkretep

The problem is that there is a range of accents of English with differences in vowel qualities, and what needs to be done is to tune in to them. I agree that length is important, but it would be difficult to decide on the word spoken if you just heard the word in isolation. For example, if I heard /kʌ:m/ from an Australian speaker, I'd be more likely to interpret it as calm, as the PSALM vowel is often not a back vowel in AusE.

In the meantime, in Singapore the PSALM and SUM vowels are often indistinguishable and length is not clear - see Wikipedia.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Dimcl said:


> I don't find those words identical, Mr. Bones. I pronounce the "ca" in "calm" like the sound of a crow (caw) or "comet" (caw-mit). I pronounce "come" like "gum".



The ''a'' sound in my calm is the same as in d*a*mn. I pronounce come like you however.


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## berndf

JulianStuart said:


> berndf,
> It seems I'm as _au fait_ with IPA as cuchu is, but it seems as though you are asking
> 
> 1) if we lengthen the duration - but not change the "quality" of the vowel sound - in come - perhaps going from */kʌm/ to */kʌ:m/, would we hear it as come or calm?  I would hear it as a longer version of come and it would  not have the necessary a quality to it to be confused with calm (even though_ I _don't say the L)
> 2) Similarly saying calm more quickly than normal speaking speed would _not_ give it a ʌ sound and it would remain, with its _unchanged a_ quality, unmistakable as calm, just shorter.


I stand corrected.


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## liliput

Say "aaah" as if the doctor were checking your vocal chords, then grunt a short "uh" as if someone just bumped into you on the street. This might help illustrate the difference in the vowel sound for many.
I notice that the friend mentioned in the original post is Australian and there are no replies here from the southern hemisphere. I believe that the two words would sound much more similar in an Australian accent - both being closer to "kem" - but there would still be a noticeable difference in the length of the vowel.


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## entangledbank

For me (one typical kind of South-East England speaker), the two vowels are identical apart from length, but would still never be confused. 'Come' is [kam], 'calm' is [ka:m], and rapidity of speech doesn't eliminate the length difference. (If there is a difference in vowel quality, it's microscopic and I've never been able to pin it down. There might possibly be a small Advanced Tongue Root difference, if you want a technical term.)

I understand there is also a tendency for there to be a microtonal pitch difference: all else being equal, short vowels rise very slightly at the end, long vowels fall. But I might have this wrong, as it's very difficult to hear, and I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly. However, if this is true, it might be a cue we use to identify vowels.

In typical Australian the two vowels also differ only in length; their [a] is a bit further forward than my central [a].


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## berndf

entangledbank said:


> For me (one typical kind of South-East England speaker), the two vowels are identical apart from length, but would still never be confused. 'Come' is [kam], 'calm' is [ka:m], and rapidity of speech doesn't eliminate the length difference. (If there is a difference in vowel quality, it's microscopic and I've never been able to pin it down. There might possibly be a small Advanced Tongue Root difference, if you want a technical term.)


Thank you for the clarification. "Typical SE-England English" is how I would describe the variety of English I am most familiar with. So my earlier characterization that _there is a difference in quality but it is minor in relation to the difference in quantity_ seems to be valid only for the variety of English I leaned.


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## JulianStuart

berndf said:


> I stand corrected.





berndf said:


> Thank you for the clarification. "Typical SE-England English" is how I would describe the variety of English I am most familiar with. So my earlier characterization that _there is a difference in quality but it is minor in relation to the difference in quantity_ seems to be valid only for the variety of English I leaned.



berndf

My comments were from one (common) manner of speaking and not meant to imply "correctness".  As the more recent posts (and your latest, too) have made it clear, pronunciation issues are often quite regional


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## timz

Hello!
I have a quection:
Is in AmE the vowels as in the words "calm" - "com", "father" - "bother" being the same?
Thanks.


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## natkretep

There are different AmE accents. In some AmE accents, yes, the vowel sounds are identical.


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## mplsray

When the vowels in these words are pronounced the same, it is referred to as the _cot-caught merger_, and is discussed in this Wikipedia article.


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## panjandrum

See also Pronunciation:  cot, caught, cat, cut


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## natkretep

mplsray said:


> When the vowels in these words are pronounced the same, it is referred to as the _cot-caught merger_, and is discussed in this Wikipedia article.


 
It might be more useful in this context to think of the _father-bother merger_ because without that, the _cot-caught_ merger wouldn't describe the American pronunciations indicated by timz. (Scottish English, for example, shows the _cot-caught_ merger, but _father_ and _bother_ do not rhyme.)


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## Chasint

Toepicker said:


> Hi Mr Bones,
> As a speaker from Northern England, I pronounce the two words very differently:
> calm = _karm_ (as in arm with a 'k' at the front)  [See comment below]
> come = _kum_ (not _kam, _as in 'standard' or southern pronunciation)
> However, I can see how standard pronunciation could confuse the two words.
> Regards.





la reine victoria said:


> Welcome to WR forums. Darthnick.
> In British English we say "carm" - rhymes with "arm".  [See comment below]
> I can't speak for our US cousins.
> LRV



As someone who is British but speaks Spanish, I would like to point out that these spelled-out versions, e.g. _calm == karm, _are entirely misleading, to AE speakers, to Spanish speakers and to anyone who rolls or sounds their "r"s..

In non-rhotic BE speech we pronounce _"alms"_ and _"arms"_ identically because we don't pronounce the 'r' and we don't pronounce the 'l'.  The effect  of the "r" or "l" in non-rhotic BE is to make the vowel sound longer. This is not true in rhotic speech, and by saying that "calm" sounds "like "karm" is quite wrong because non-Brits are likely to assume we roll the "r" in "karm" - we don't.

In non-rhotic (RP) BE, the sounds, in IPA,  are as follows:

cam ---> /kæm/
calm ---> /kɑːm/
come ---> /kɐm/

Conclusion
These vowels sounds are all different in BE and easily distinguished by native speakers.
__________________________________________________________________
*Key*
AE == American English
BE == British English
IPA == International Phonetic Alphabet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart_for_English_dialects
RP == Received Pronunciation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
rhotic pronunciation == rolled "r" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents
non-rhotic == non-rolled or silent "r"


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## RM1(SS)

If I'm understanding this correctly, most people are saying that the vowel in _calm_ is pronounced like that in _father_ or _dot_.  For me, it's quite different - _calm_ is pronounced like _call_ (rhymes with _wall_ or _bawl_), with an added _m_.

(And yes, I also pronounce the_ l_ in _palm_, _balm_ and _almond_.)


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## Chasint

RM1(SS) said:


> If I'm understanding this correctly, most people are saying that the vowel in _calm_ is pronounced like that in _father_ or _dot_.  For me, it's quite different - _calm_ is pronounced like _call_ (rhymes with _wall_ or _bawl_), with an added _m_.
> 
> (And yes, I also pronounce the_ l_ in _palm_, _balm_ and _almond_.)


Yes, but again RM1, we have the problem that we don't know how you pronounce "wall" or "bawl"! I'll bet any sum you like that it is different from how I pronounce them.

As for saying that "father" and "dot" have the same vowel sound, well in my sort of English those two vowels are entirely different. I can't even imagine an accent in which they could sound the same.

I'm trying to make the point that we simply can't have this discussion without a common reference point. Can you find the appropriate IPA symbols?


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## RM1(SS)

RM1(SS) said:


> If I'm understanding this correctly, most people are saying that the vowel in _calm_ is pronounced like that in _father_ or _dot_.  For me, it's quite different - _calm_ is pronounced like _call_ (rhymes with _wall_ or _bawl_), with an added _m_.
> 
> (And yes, I also pronounce the_ l_ in _palm_, _balm_ and _almond_.)





Biffo said:


> Yes, but again RM1, we have the problem that we don't know how you pronounce "wall" or "bawl"! I'll bet any sum you like that it is different from how I pronounce them.
> 
> As for saying that "father" and "dot" have the same vowel sound, well in my sort of English those two vowels are entirely different. I can't even imagine an accent in which they could sound the same.
> 
> I'm trying to make the point that we simply can't have this discussion without a common reference point. Can you find the appropriate IPA symbols?


I think I want /ɑː/ for _father_ and _dot_, and /ɔː/ for _wall_, _bawl_ and _calm_.

And I really, really hate the way writing is done on this forum - changing the words to italic in the rough draft instead of showing where the HTML open and close tags are....


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## Hildy1

Three cheers for Biffo in post #46, for pointing out that when British people explain the pronunciation of a vowel by including an R (for example, saying that a word rhymes with "arm", it does not mean that they pronounce the R; it means that they do *not* pronounce the R, since the pronunciation of most British people is non-rhotic.

For example, when a British person says that a word rhymes with "arm", it is what an AE speaker might represent by "ahm". It is similar to the sound in "pom pom", but the vowel is a little longer than in "pom pom".


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## dadane

Beware, there are many British dialects which are rhotic, I myself don't speak one of those so 'arm' is indeed /ahm/ in my world.

Because of this thread, I have been looking around for the 'example' words used to demonstrate the IPA vowels: it is a minefield of ambiguity. Many of the examples quoted don't even come close to my pronunciation, not that my pronunciation is strictly RP, but I can't even imagine them in RP. It's as if a list of demonstrative words have been chosen which are supposedly the same the same in SA and RP, they just aren't

PS. 'Pig' and 'peg' are indistinguishable in NZE.


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## berndf

RM1(SS) said:


> I think I want /ɑː/ for _father_ and _dot_, and /ɔː/ for _wall_, _bawl_ and _calm_.


In BrE, _father _and _calm _are with /ɑː/, dot with /ɒ/ and wall with /ɔː/. The length difference between /ɑː/ and /ɒ/ is quite significant. Both, the quality difference (rounding) and the quantity difference are levelled in most AmE accents.


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## pickarooney

The only place I can imagine these words sounding the same are in a Gary Glitter song. "Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamon, caamon, camon, caamon, camon, caamon, caam on."


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