# では: locative subject



## Kenshiromusou

Yo, friends.
Could you help me again?

アニメ化は,連載開始から動き始めており,東映*では*,早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整*を重ねていた*。
I'am not sure about this *では*? and what's the meaning of this *重ねていた here? *
Is it different from 「アニメ化は,連載開始から動き始めていたので,東映*が*,早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整*を重ねた*。」
Ｔｈａｎｋ　ｙｏｕ　ｖｅｒｙ　ｍｕｃｈ.


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## karlalou

I think your version virtually says the same thing, but it's pretty much the typical wording in broadcasting or the like, and we are very much used to it. The expression of 東映では（これこれしかじか）verb+ていた apparently expresses the progressiveness of the event, and 東映では says 'at 東映', and it's just the way usually prefered. Maybe that is implying that there's some people have been working on it, or maybe it's just a figure of speech or customary.


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## frequency

The OP clearly says that there was any other firm or party than Toei.
ではcan pinpoint any one among several. I mean that the OP sounds like Toei dewa ～～～. But ABC dewa ～～～..

But if Toei is the only one firm that is mentioned in the context, that では is a small error. Rather I'd say yours is more correct in meaning, but if you say,


> アニメ化は連載開始から動き始めていたので、東映*は*早い段階からテレビ局、スポンサーとの調整*を重ねた*。


this can tell that Toei did so due to the reason shown in the first half of the sentence, and you're talking about Toei only.


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## Kenshiromusou

karlalou said:


> I think your version virtually says the same thing, but it's pretty much the typical wording in broadcasting or the like, and we are very much used to it. The expression of 東映では（これこれしかじか）verb+ていた apparently expresses the progressiveness of the event, and 東映では says 'at 東映', and it's just the way usually prefered. Maybe that is implying that there's some people have been working on it, or maybe it's just a figure of speech or customary.


karlalouさん、どうもありがとうございました。



frequency said:


> The OP clearly says that there was any other firm or party than Toei.
> ではcan pinpoint any one among several. I mean that the OP sounds like Toei dewa ～～～. But ABC dewa ～～～..
> 
> But if Toei is the only one firm that is mentioned in the context, that では is a small error. Rather I'd say yours is more correct in meaning, but if you say,



 When redactor used 東映 *では, *assuming it indicates location of action, there's no conspicuous subject in "調整を重ねていた". This をていた without subject looks like passive structure (the thing was done/was being done), no? Toei is the only firm mentioned. I don't know why he used this では. "the adjustments with TV and sponsors were all made at Toei [by Toei]?
友よ、どうもありがとうございました。


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## frequency

Kenshiromusou said:


> 東映 *では, *assuming it indicates location of action,


You know, this isn't impossible because では can work to mean so. If you read this way, that sentence says that people had meetings or business plans at the Toei head office to negotiate or coordinate with TV stations and sponsors.

But the OP says that from the start of the gensaku (manga), people wanted to make its anime series. So Toei had to negotiate or talk with them as soon as possible, too.

So the focus isn't what they did at the Toei head office, but simply their actions for producing and broadcasting the animation. So yours is better,
東映は（が）・・


> I don't know why he used this では


I think it's just a small error.


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## Kenshiromusou

frequency said:


> You know, this isn't impossible because では can work to mean so. If you read this way, that sentence says that people had meetings or business plans at the Toei head office to negotiate or coordinate with TV stations and sponsors.
> 
> But the OP says that from the start of the gensaku (manga), people wanted to make its anime series. So Toei had to negotiate or talk with them as soon as possible, too.
> 
> So the focus isn't what they did at the Toei head office, but simply their actions for producing and broadcasting the animation. So yours is better,
> 東映は（が）・・
> 
> I think it's just a small error.


友よ、もう一度、どうもありがとうございました。


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## karlalou

Kenshiromusou said:


> 東映では


If the use of では comes with a context, it should be normal and grammatical. 
After all, it's nothing unusual for Japanese language to omit the subject. At least it's definitely better than repeating the same は.

When it comes to news casting, however, the reporters often use では at the beginning of a story, but the stream of the whole news program is enough as the context for では to be used to start another story because they are reporting news all the time.

Also I recall messages from familiar companies often start with では. There should be some short greetings before it, but it doesn't have any context other than their names are well-known.

I happened to find a *document (@NHK) * talking about では, and found an issue. It says that they received a concern about the usage of では as a subject marker, and that it's a long-debated issue. It's a short article and basically just presenting some opinions, but I wonder if they really accurately understood what they received.

The person addressed the concern had brought up the fact that a report was started with '宮津市（みやづし）では (At a city of Miyazu)', to mean Miyazu city council.

The document doesn't mention the real point, but, in this case, it is indeed a problem because it is too confusing to know whether it's talking about the area of the city or the city council until we hear the following statement and understand what it's all about. Maybe, in news casting, if it says 宮津市では, it never means the area of the city, but it's beyond me. The listeners are not all professionals at listening to the news, but their minds are usually packed with something else. (It might have been the actual point addressed. I don't know, but it's very possible. I've long forgotten this issue because I've been not in Japan, but now I remember. It seems they never get the meaning of their audiences' long-lasting-wishes. They.. We've been keeping saying that we want to hear clearer messages. I wonder if the では is their irreversible habit? Or are they training their reporters to say that? Or all the new and young reporters get into the business already have that habit? I'd like to send this post of mine to them.)

It's important to know it's about the government. We want them to clearly state so at the beginning of the story. If it's without で, '宮津市は' indeed sounds much more like talking about the city government. If it's, for example, 宮津市の当該局では, it's even easier to understand. Especially if they like longer version better, I say why not.

I don't mean the all では as a subject marker are wrong. In news casting, は alone can be too strong and can sound like accusing. So, if it's a company name where didn't do anything wrong, then it's good with では. If it's a familiar company name, there's no worry of confusion for us to take it as a park or a mountain or a town or anywhere else.


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## Flaminius

Kenshiromusou said:


> 東映では、早い段階からテレビ局、スポンサーとの調整を重ねていた。


京都府宮津市では、民間企業と共同で、放置された竹を使った新製品の開発に乗り出しました。
Source: https://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/pdf/20160101_4.pdf

では often introduces the "subject" for a verb that requires high animacy (to be able to talk, run, or think) when the subject is inanimate.  The _de_-locative means that an action takes place inside the modified noun. By extention, _-dewa_ can hint at those who do the action inside the noun.  The underlying motivation is companies and city halls are conceived as static beings unable to walk or talk or think. The real agents of these sentences are people who belongs to the _dewa_-marked organisations.  Organisations are often grammatically on par with places.  E.g., どこの会社で働いていますか?　－東映です。/*香川県です。

Personally I have no trouble using inanimate subjects with regular postpositions like _-wa_, _-ga_, _-no_.


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## frequency

karlalou said:


> At least it's definitely better than repeating the same は.


No, that's okay in the right use.



karlalou said:


> it's nothing unusual for Japanese language to omit the subject.


In the OP, if you show the subject, that 東映では becomes _more _emphasised locative. See,

アニメ化は連載開始から動き始めており、東映では関係者が早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整を重ねていた。
This says that the place where the staff did it was Toei (office), not at Sunrise, Ghibli, etc.
The focus isn't this.

They Toei had this reason,
アニメ化は連載開始から動き始めており
They did this
早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整を重ねていた。
Use は, because readers can easily understand who (which party) did. If you say 東映は, it's not locative as Flam said, too.



Flaminius said:


> Personally I have no trouble using inanimate subjects with regular postpositions like _-wa_, _-ga_, _-no_.


(Cross-post)


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## Kenshiromusou

Flaminius said:


> 京都府宮津市では、民間企業と共同で、放置された竹を使った新製品の開発に乗り出しました。
> Source: https://www.nhk.or.jp/bunken/research/kotoba/pdf/20160101_4.pdf
> 
> では often introduces the "subject" for a verb that requires high animacy (to be able to talk, run, or think) when the subject is inanimate.  The _de_-locative means that an action takes place inside the modified noun. By extention, _-dewa_ can hint at those who do the action inside the noun.  The underlying motivation is companies and city halls are conceived as static beings unable to walk or talk or think. The real agents of these sentences are people who belongs to the _dewa_-marked organisations.  Organisations are often grammatically on par with places.  E.g., どこの会社で働いていますか?　－東映です。/*香川県です。
> 
> Personally I have no trouble using inanimate subjects with regular postpositions like _-wa_, _-ga_, _-no_.





frequency said:


> No, that's okay in the right use.
> 友達よ、もう一度、どうもありがとうございました。
> 
> In the OP, if you show the subject, that 東映では becomes _more _emphasised locative. See,
> 
> アニメ化は連載開始から動き始めており、東映では関係者が早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整を重ねていた。
> This says that the place where the staff did it was Toei (office), not at Sunrise, Ghibli, etc.
> The focus isn't this.
> 
> They Toei had this reason,
> アニメ化は連載開始から動き始めており
> They did this
> 早い段階からテレビ局,スポンサーとの調整を重ねていた。
> Use は, because readers can easily understand who (which party) did. If you say 東映は, it's not locative as Flam said, too.
> 
> 
> (Cross-post)


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## karlalou

karlalou said:


> I happened to find a *document (@NHK) * talking about では, and found an issue. It says that they received a concern about the usage of では as a subject marker, and that it's a long-debated issue.


The point of people's long-lasting-wishes is
what 「千葉県木更津市では」is followed by.

I don't know if we are substituting or omitting by saying では, but it seems no one here now disagrees that it's not a mistake to use では as a subject marker. 

So, what people has been debating for so long?
It is about how it's used. When it's ○○市では, we don't know what it's referring to until we hear the rest of the story and understand what it says.

I wonder if it's almost impossible for a news caster on air to figure out what it's all about when they are reading a scribble, but then they can explain so.


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## frequency

karlalou said:


> it's not a mistake to use では as a subject marker.


間違いじゃないときもあるよ！

アニメの監督が、いろんな会社へ行くよ。
「東映では、打合せできなかったんだけど、ジブリではかなりつっこんだ話し合いができた。」
こういう二つの対比だとＯＫだよ。c.f.　「東映で打合せできなかったよ。」「東映では打ち合わせできなかったよ。」（２番目も間違いではない）

あ、ごめんちょっと違ったね。↑Locativeだったね。

「ジブリは（・では）戦争ものの作品を出してるけど、東映ではどうなの？」
とかが可能だね。


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## karlalou

東映 is not a city name but a pretty much well known company, so I came to think that, whether or not it's at the beginning of a story, OP's case shouldn't be a case of misuse.


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## frequency

東映という会社が、重ねる(重ねていた)という行動をしていたので、東映は、の方がいいんだよ。

あと、言及している会社は東映だけらしいので、(#4)#12みたいに、ジブリでは～、東映では～、と、対比をする必要もないから、「では」じゃなくていいんだ。

▪東映という会社が行っていたということなので、lovativeの「では」ではない。
▪東映という会社だけの話なので、contrastive(対比)の「では」も必要ない

ただ、激しく間違えている訳ではないよ。意味はわかるよ。


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