# Die Dreigroschenoper



## geve

Hello, dear German-speaking forer@s  

It is the first time I come to this part of the forum, so I'm feeling a bit shy! I would be grateful if you could reply in English (or French!) since I can't speak German  

We're having a discussion on the translations of the title of Brecht's _Die Dreigroschenoper_ in the French-English forum (here), and we were especially wondering why the French title _L'Opéra de Quat' sous_ uses an idiom ("de quat' sous"/"de quatre sous" = 4 cents worth, used as an idiom for something of little value) and not the English one _The Threepenny Opera_.

So my question is: does the German _Dreigroschen_ have an idiomatic meaning? Is there a reason that it's specifically "drei" and not "zwei" or "vier"?

Many thanks!


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## Jana337

Coucou Geve, welcome! 

There is a word for trashy literature - Dreigroschenheft (Heft - booklet). But I am not sure how old it is. I cannot think of any other idiomatic expression involving "drei Groschen".

I hope our natives can help more. 

Jana


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## geve

Hi Jana! It's a pleasure to be welcomed by you here  

Thank you for your answer. So there might be something with "drei Groschen" indeed...


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## muriel

If this hint may interest you, in Italian, the German title is universally *faithfully* translated: "L'opera da *tre* soldi".


I'm not the best judge in this affair, but i agree with Jana337 about the possibility of gergal meaning.

Muriel


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> So my question is: does the German _Dreigroschen_ have an idiomatic meaning? Is there a reason that it's specifically "drei" and not "zwei" or "vier"?
> 
> Many thanks!


I think you have not received an immediate, cleear answer because there is no simple answer. Have you tried this link in Wiki, English language?

English link

Unfortunately there is different information in the German entry:

German link

This might be an important clue: 

Das Stück ist eine Bearbeitung der Beggar's Opera von John Gay (Text) und Johann Christoph Pepusch (Musik) aus dem Jahr 1728.

The piece/composition/work is a reworking/adaptation of "The Beggar's Opera" by John Gay (text) and Johann Christoph Pepusch (music) from the year 1728.

If my understanding is correct, the German title comes from English, not the other way around. I suspect that "three penny" has some link to "poor", "beggar", but I have not been able to find any information to confirm that.

Welcome to the German forum. 

Here is one more linke, this one to "The Beggar's Opera"

Gaer


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## geve

Thank you muriel and gaer  

I had browsed the English page on wikipedia indeed, but what I had understood is that Brecht adapted an English opera called "The Beggar's Opera", and named his new version "Die Dreigroschenoper". Was my understanding wrong? 

The English natives in the French-English thread seem to think that "threepenny" doesn't have an idiomatic meaning (but we haven't discussed the matter too much, since it was not exactly what the original question was about). From what muriel says, it seems that the Italian one doesn't either?
After all, maybe it's only the French title that chose to add one more penny to take advantage of an existing idiom...

Jana, the few references I found about "Dreigroschenheft" seemed to point to Berthold Brecht... (such as this website: http://www.dreigroschenheft.de/)
Maybe the term for trashy litterature actually came from this very opera?


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## Jana337

Yes, Brecht derived inspiration from The Beggar's Opera, so the name he picked should have evoked cheapness etc. I thought you knew it. 

The webpage is devoted to Bertold Brecht. They publish a journal and call it Dreigroschenheft (although it is apparently a high-brow journal). I am afraid it does not prove anything; they simply used the word as a symbol. 

Jana


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## geve

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Yes, Brecht derived inspiration from The Beggar's Opera, so the name he picked should have evoked cheapness etc. I thought you knew it.


I understand that _threepenny/dreigroschen/tre soldi/quatre sous_ is a low amount of money, no matter the language or currency  Was that what you were saying?
But the French title is the only one in this list that made it "4" instead of "3"; probably to match the existing idiom "of little value". They could have said "à 3 sous" - without the idiomatic meaning, the set phrase being "*4 *sous" (not 3, 5 or 2...)

That's why I wondered if the original title in German had an idiomatic meaning, if "Dreigroschen" was used to describe something of little value in general.

I don't know if I'm being very clear...


			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> The webpage is devoted to Bertold Brecht. They publish a journal and call it Dreigroschenheft (although it is apparently a high-brow journal). I am afraid it does not prove anything; they simply used the word as a symbol.
> 
> Jana


Ok  So the origin of the term "Dreigroschenheft" is still to be explained then.


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## muriel

If another opinion from an Italian native speaker is admitted, I wish to specificate that in Italian we use with exactly the same meaning

(quantity: 2) "due soldi"
(quantity: 3) "tre soldi"
(quantity: 4) "quattro soldi"

with the expression "lira" which means (because of past inflation) something like "penny" (doesn't "Groschen" mean something alike?), even if before EURO it was the Italian currency, is also admitted: (quantity: 1) "una lira" 

If in French exists a difference, a remarkable "nuance" I don't find useless to exploit it, in order to better convey the meaning.

Muriel


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## geve

muriel said:
			
		

> If in French exists a difference, a remarkable "nuance" I don't find useless to exploit it, in order to better convey the meaning.


Yes, that's probably what happened, the French chose to add a penny to get this 'remarkable nuance'. But maybe there were no such nuance in the original title... even though the existence of the term "Dreigroschenheft" pointed out by Jana could have meant that there could be an idiomatic use of "Dreigroschen".

Thank you everyone


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## Bonjules

Hola all.
I think, as Geve supects, it still boils down to the original assumption: 'Der arme BB' picked 'drei Groschen' to indicate cheapness, as in "Dreigroschenheft", as Jana points out. That in either case 'drei' is preferred over other numbers is as I suspect due to the following:
1. It has to be a small number
2. It should be an 'interesting' #. 3 is irregular, a prime #, a magical #. 
Definately more interesting than '2'. Think of the multitude of cultural expression in the widest sense (religion, literature, folklore etc etc where '3' figures prominently)
3. It is easy to say, has a nice, easy ring to it.
It seems the natural choice. I would have picked the same thing(Ha,ha)
saludos


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> Yes, that's probably what happened, the French chose to add a penny to get this 'remarkable nuance'. But maybe there were no such nuance in the original title... even though the existence of the term "Dreigroschenheft" pointed out by Jana could have meant that there could be an idiomatic use of "Dreigroschen".
> 
> Thank you everyone


I think it all comes down to idioms. (Just my "*two cents"*…opinion) 

This is what I have learned:

1) The "show" seems to have come from "The Beggar's Opera".
2) It seems that Elizabeth Hauptmann translated the English work.
3) _The Beggar's Opera_ was already unusual.  It was a satiric play with music that was somewhat operatic in form, but it also has things in common with what we today call "musical comedy".
4) The choice of the title "Die Dreigroschenoper" is something that was decided upon by either the translator or Brecht.

Since the original concept is "beggar", when the title is translated into any other language, the best choice is something that gets the idea across using an idiom that sounds natural in the target language. 

Gaer


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## geve

Thank you, Bonjules and gaer. So if I understand right, you are saying that _Dreigroschen_ might have an idiomatic use; or at least, that _Drei_ would most likely be the number picked to express a very small quantity.



			
				gaer said:
			
		

> Since the original concept is "beggar", when the title is translated into any other language, the best choice is something that gets the idea across using an idiom that sounds natural in the target language.


I agree. Should the English title have been "The Two cents Opera" then?


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## Bonjules

Exactly, Geve.
'Two cents' would have worked fine in English, but through a horrible accident in cultural/literary history a more direct translation got estalished and remains unchallenged.....
A better word than 'idiomatic' in this context would maybe be 'emblematic' (suggesting an idea). Just a thought.
salut
bj


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> Thank you, Bonjules and gaer.
> 
> […]
> 
> Should the English title have been "The Two cents Opera" then?


No, because it would not be the same idiom. You are trying to analyse English too logically. "Just my two cents" means "just my opinion". I think what we are dealing with, in English, is a translation of a translation. In other words, it started as "Beggar's Opera". It was translated as "Die Dreigroschenoper". Then it has been translated BACK as "The Three Penny Opera". Now, is there also a history for "three penny" in relationship to being poor?

I don't know and wish I did. 

Gaer


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## geve

gaer said:
			
		

> [...] Now, is there also a history for "three penny" in relationship to being poor?
> 
> I don't know and wish I did.
> 
> Gaer


Alright, alright, I'll go open a thread in English only!  

-- [edit] I have actually put this new thread on hold, since I found this in the WRD:



> sixpenny, *threepenny*, twopenny, tuppeny, two-a-penny, twopenny-halfpenny
> _of trifling worth_


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> Alright, alright, I'll go open a thread in English only!
> 
> -- [edit] I have actually put this new thread on hold, since I found this in the WRD:


But this still does not answer the question about "three penny" having special relationship to  poverty, since twopenny exists too.

In addition, if anything the word related to being poor is "half penny", which is usually pronounced "ha'penny" in a rather famous song:

"If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do. If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you." 

Gaer


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## Iche

So, dont worry any more about Dreigroschenoper, take it as a name for play.

And there is no word Dreigroschenheft, but Groschenheft or Groschenroman (Dime novel).


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## gaer

Iche said:
			
		

> So, dont worry any more about Dreigroschenoper, take it as a name for play.
> 
> And there is no word Dreigroschenheft, but Groschenheft or Groschenroman (Dime novel).


I believe the rest of us were in the middle of a discussion, and I assure you we will continue discussing the topic as long as we please.

If you have something to add, you are welcome to contribute. If you don't have something to add, please do not tell the rest of us what and what not to "worry" about.

Gaer


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## Iche

@gaer

It was not my intention to be impolite, so why are you? 
And _Dreigroschenroman_ definitely do not stands for trashy literature. It's story is based on _Die Dreigroschenoper_.
I'm sorry to the other forum members, but for the next I can only find a german source.

Wenn man sich die Hintergründe des Stückes etwas genauer ansieht, erkennt man, dass es völlig egal ist, ob es drei, zwanzig oder hundert Groschen sind.

Zitat:
_Die Dreigroschenoper ist auf der Grundlage der "Beggar's Opera" von John Gay entstanden und wurde am 31.08.1929 im Theater am Schiffbauerdamm in Berlin uraufgeführt. Brecht zielt mit diesem Werk auf die Entlarvung der korrupten Bourgeoisie. Auf der einen Seite erscheint der Bettlerkönig Peachum als Musterbeispiel des Geschäftemachers, für den Not und Armut nichts anderes sind als Mittel zum Zweck; auf der anderen Seite entpuppt sich ausgerechnet der skrupellose Verbrecher Mackie Messer als Prototyp sogenannter bürgerlicher Solidität. Am Schluss zeigt sich auch Brechts Pessimismus: Die grossen, professionellen Gauner werden niemals geschnappt, weil sie mit den oberen Zehntausend unter einer Decke stecken. <rest of text deleted for copyright reasons> _Quelle: w ww.raffiniert.ch/sbrecht.html

Und weiter, Zitat:
_Der Name Dreigroschenoper für Bertolt Brechts und Kurt Weills Gemeinschaftswerk aus dem Jahre 1928 stammt eigentlich von Lion Feuchtwanger, der ihn als Alternative zu dem ursprünglich vorgesehenen Titel Gesindel vorschlug. Die Vorlage John Gays damals 200 Jahre alte The Beggar's Opera , wurde von Bertolt Brecht sehr frei bearbeitet und mit andern Texten, u.a. von François Villon, angereichert._

Quelle: w ww.theater-vdl.lu/_15_Die_Dreigroschenoper.html


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## gaer

Iche said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to the other forum members, but for the next I can only find a german source.


Have you read through this whole thread?

I already gave several links in this post.

Please check here:



> Wenn man sich die Hintergründe des Stückes etwas genauer ansieht, erkennt man, dass es völlig egal ist, ob es drei, zwanzig oder hundert Groschen sind.


If you take the time to read the story of "The Beggar's Opera", from which "Die Dreigroschenoper" came, you would see that there is a character called "the Beggar" who is central to the story. It is a satire that deals with "social inequity on a broad scale". Poverty is an intregal part of the original story.

We have already established that the German title was chosen as a translation of the English title (The Beggar's Opera) and that "The Three Penny Opera" is a translation of a translation. That is all that any of us knows so far.  

Gaer


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## Iche

gaer said:
			
		

> Iche said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to the other forum members, but for the next I can only find a german source.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you read through this whole thread?
> 
> I already gave several links in this post.
Click to expand...


Dann sind wir uns ja einig, denn in dem von Dir verlinkten englischen Wikipedia-Artikel werden z.B. Lion Feuchtwanger oder François Villon nicht erwähnt.


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## gaer

Iche said:
			
		

> Dann sind wir uns ja einig, denn in dem von Dir verlinkten englischen Wikipedia-Artikel werden z.B. Lion Feuchtwanger oder François Villon nicht erwähnt.


I provided the English link for those who can't read German, but I also noticed that the information contained in both articles is not always the same.

Gaer


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## geve

gaer said:
			
		

> But this still does not answer the question about "three penny" having special relationship to poverty, since twopenny exists too.
> 
> In addition, if anything the word related to being poor is "half penny", which is usually pronounced "ha'penny" in a rather famous song:
> 
> "If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do. If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you."
> 
> Gaer


Yes, but the German title using the number 3, and since threepenny exists as a set phrase, we can understand that the translators chose to sell the English version of the opera for three pennies rather that two or even half a penny... (a better deal for them!) 



			
				Iche said:
			
		

> So, dont worry any more about Dreigroschenoper, take it as a name for play.
> 
> And there is no word Dreigroschenheft, but Groschenheft or Groschenroman (Dime novel).


I gather from what you say that there is no more particular meaning in "Dreigroschen" than in zweigroschen or viergroschen. So the fact that when translated, the title could use an emblematic phrase in the target language is a "bonus feature". 

Thank you all for these interesting insights


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> Yes, but the German title using the number 3, and since threepenny exists as a set phrase, we can understand that the translators chose to sell the English version of the opera for three pennies rather that two or even half a penny... (a better deal for them!)


Just remember that "The Three Penny Opera" is a translation of a translation. The real question is where the *German title* came from. 

Gaer


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## geve

I know...  Considering the lack of answers stating that _Dreigroschen_ indeed has an idiomatic or emblematic use, should we come to an agreement that 3 was picked because it's just a little more than 2, and just a little less than 4?


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## gaer

geve said:
			
		

> I know...  Considering the lack of answers stating that _Dreigroschen_ indeed has an idiomatic or emblematic use, should we come to an agreement that 3 was picked because it's just a little more than 2, and just a little less than 4?


I can only say: I don't know!

Perhaps some kind soul will appear in the future and give us a definitive answer. 

Gaer


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## cirrus

gaer said:
			
		

> But this still does not answer the question about "three penny" having special relationship to  poverty, since twopenny exists too.
> 
> In addition, if anything the word related to being poor is "half penny", which is usually pronounced "ha'penny" in a rather famous song:
> 
> "If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do. If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you."
> 
> Gaer



The difference is that in pre decimal coinage tuppence would be at least two coins whereas a thrupenny bit was a single coin.  We talk about people being so poor they haven't got two pennies to rub together.


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## gaer

cirrus said:
			
		

> The difference is that in pre decimal coinage tuppence would be at least two coins whereas a thrupenny bit was a single coin. We talk about people being so poor they haven't got two pennies to rub together.


OKAY! Now we have one answer, why "three penny" works as a translation. Unfortunately, we are still left with the puzzle of "Dreigroschenoper", since we are trying to figure out where the number "drei" came from in the German title, which is the translated title (or made-up title) corresponding to "The Beggar's Opera. So the quest continues. 

Gaer


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## cirrus

Might the answer be something similar?  In Berlin you still come across people talking about groschen as small change (well pre Euro at any rate) but groschen haven't been in circulation in Germany for god knows how long.


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## geve

cirrus said:
			
		

> The difference is that in pre decimal coinage tuppence would be at least two coins whereas a thrupenny bit was a single coin. We talk about people being so poor they haven't got two pennies to rub together.


Thank you cirrus, this is very interesting. Is "thrupenny" the same as "threepenny"? The WRD says
- tuppence, twopence = _a former United Kingdom silver coin; United Kingdom bronze decimal coin worth two pennies_
- threepence = _former cupronickel coin of the United Kingdom equal to three pennies _

(and I've also discovered that "truepenny" = An honest, trustworthy person, but that's not relevant here!)



			
				cirrus said:
			
		

> Might the answer be something similar? In Berlin you still come across people talking about groschen as small change (well pre Euro at any rate) but groschen haven't been in circulation in Germany for god knows how long.


Good point! 
(apparently groschen were still used in Austria where it was a division of the Austrian Schilling until the Euro)

The 3 groschen coin seem to have existed indeed, I found one here (the French wikipedia says that "Groschen" could be "Gros" and was an abbreviation of latin _grossus denarius turnosus_).

In any case, the opera is more expensive in German than in English:
_"A small silver coin and money of account of Germany, *worth about two cents*. It was discontinued in the new monetary system of the empire and not subsequeently used."_ (source)


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## cirrus

geve said:
			
		

> Thank you cirrus, this is very interesting. Is "thrupenny" the same as "threepenny"? The WRD says
> - tuppence, twopence = _a former United Kingdom silver coin; United Kingdom bronze decimal coin worth two pennies_
> - threepence = _former cupronickel coin of the United Kingdom equal to three pennies _


The 3d coins were popularly called thrupenny bits so people would talk about thrupence.  Sorry I have no idea how to spell it, it's a word you hear rather than one you write. 

It's all become somewhat archaic as even the notoriously go ahead UK finally got rid of pounds shillings and pence in the early 70s.  I remember my teacher at primary school telling us how much easier things would be with the decimal system.  It took him the best part of a morning to tot up everyone's dinner money on the first Monday when the new system came into force.

Looking at this link it confirms my gut feeling - when people talked about groschen they meant ten pfennings.  Groschen were abolished in united Germany in 1873.  This article talks about there being 30 groschen to the mark, twelve pfennigs to the groschen.  That's as wierd and clunky as old fashioned pounds shillings and pence.


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## geve

cirrus said:
			
		

> Looking at this link it confirms my gut feeling - when people talked about groschen they meant ten pfennings. Groschen were abolished in united Germany in 1873. This article talks about there being 30 groschen to the mark, twelve pfennigs to the groschen. That's as wierd and clunky as old fashioned pounds shillings and pence.


It is indeed advanced maths! I would certainly have lost a few shillings or pfennigs more than once in such a system...

Thank you for the explanation cirrus


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## cirrus

It's only a theory though, I've nothing more than a feeling to back it up with.  Would that we could have Brecht online to consult!


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## muriel

It may sound a little bit late, but I'd rather add a hint which still nobody, so far as I know, has mentioned. An ancient comedy by Plauto, whose existance I learnt only lately, was entitled exactly "*Trinummus*": *Three coins*. 
Fine, isn't it? The deeper you dig, the more you find...

Bye

Muriel


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## Hutschi

There is also the word "Dreigroschenjunge."

The word "three" is often used. Three wishes, three guesses and so on ...


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## heidita

Iche said:


> So, dont worry any more about Dreigroschenoper, take it as a name for play.
> 
> And there is no word Dreigroschenheft, but Groschenheft or Groschenroman (Dime novel).


 


gaer said:


> I believe the rest of us were in the middle of a discussion, and I assure you we will continue discussing the topic as long as we please.
> 
> If you have something to add, you are welcome to contribute. If you don't have something to add, *please do not tell the rest of us what and what not to "worry" about. ?????*
> 
> Gaer


 
I wonder what brought that outbursts on. Interesting. I believe everybody is welcome here even though he/she might say something we do not like.

In any case the forer *did* contribute and he was only expressing an opinion.

Well, so this is what I found.

*Groschenroman *
ist Synonym von: *Dreigroschenheft*, Groschenheft, Schund, Schundliteratur

I wasn't aware that Dreigroschenroman and Dreigroschenheft were the same.

Iche, man kann übrigens beides sagen. _Groschenroman _oder _Dreigroschenroman_.

As we can see, geve, they give us as a synonym Dreigroschen...or Groschen.... It used to be the smallest(?) coin available. So something very cheap and it also says, something of very bad taste and common.


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## Lykurg

I just want to back up cirrus (and correct heidita): 
"Groschen" was the colloquial name for the 10 Pfennig coin during at least the second half of 20th century.


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## heidita

heidita said:


> As we can see, geve, they give us as a synonym Dreigroschen...or Groschen.... It used to be the smallest(?) coin available. So something very cheap and it also says, something of very bad taste and common.


 
Very silly. I didn't' even think of the Pfennig! Anyway, only something very cheap could be got with this coin.


Lykurg said:


> I just want to back up cirrus (and correct heidita): ??
> "Groschen" was the colloquial name for the 10 Pfennig coin during at least the second half of 20th century.


Groschen was the colloquial word for the ten Pfennig coin until the Euro came into life! We have always said Groschen in NRW. 
Which reminds me of the "el duro" in Spain, which used to be the 5 Peseta coin until the Euro was introduced.


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## Lykurg

???
Du zitierst es doch selbst: "the smallest(?)  coin available" - das stimmte so nicht.


Der Zeitraum ist nicht entscheidend. Daß es nur bis zum Euro galt, dürfte den meisten klar sein, die wissen, daß der Euro keinen Pfennig als Untereinheit hat.
Ab wann die inoffizielle Bezeichnung "Groschen" für das Zehnpfennigstück tatsächlich üblich wurde, weiß ich nicht, vermied es daher, mich festzulegen.


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## cirrus

Listening to the radio the other day I came across the word groat which was a coin used in England hundreds of years ago.  Three groats made a shilling. Isn't it interesting that this cognate form wasn't used?


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## geve

Thank you everyone! So Dreigroshen-something is idiomatic then. And Plautus might have something to do with it too... And no Muriel, it's never too late to add new information!


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## Lykurg

geve, don't mix up Plautus and Platon!


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## geve

Lykurg said:


> geve, don't mix up Plautus and Platon!


Oups, yes... Was it a misread, was it a misspelling, you'll never know: I'll edit my post right away!


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