# Double Object Pronouns.



## Alxmrphi

1) I forgot the reason that she told me to give it to him.
... Ho dimenticato il ragione che lei mi detto glielo dare.

2) When the boy stole the girls pen, she asked him to give her it.
....Quando il ragazzo ha rubato la penna della ragazza, lei gli ha chiesto di dargliela.

3) The pirate doesn't want to loose his treasure, He has asked if the mermaid can take it to him later.
... Il pirata non vuole perdere il suo tesoro, lui ha chiesto se la sirena può glielo portare più tardi.

Before I torture myself even more with trying to translate these sentences, I wanna see if I'm correct so far, and that might spur me on to bigger sentences.


----------



## Alfry

Ciao Alex, 
1) ... to give it to him = [literally] dare esso a lui = dare a lui esso= dare+glie+lo= darglielo

2)  

3) ... can take it to him later = può portare esso a lui;
here you have 2 options:

I)  glielo può portare 
II) può portarglielo


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> 1) I forgot the reason that she told me to give it to him.
> ... Ho dimenticato la ragione per cui lei mi ha detto di darlielo
> 2) When the boy stole the girls pen, she asked him to give her it.
> ....Quando il ragazzo ha rubato la penna della ragazza, lei gli ha chiesto di dargliela.
> 
> 3) The pirate doesn't want to loose his treasure, He has asked if the mermaid can take it to him later.
> ... Il pirata non vuole perdere il suo tesoro, lui ha chiesto se la sirena  glielo può portare più tardi.
> 
> Not bad so far, simply there are a few inversions to make!!


----------



## Alxmrphi

I'm so relived lol!!!

- sciarada, I see you've replaced "che" with "per cui" - Howcome, what difference does it make and what does it mean?

Besides that, I'm pleased, I'll try and do a few more in a bit .


----------



## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> 1) I forgot the reason that she told me to give it to him.
> ... Ho dimenticato il ragione che lei mi detto glielo dare.
> 
> 2) When the boy stole the girl's pen, she asked him to give her it.
> ....Quando il ragazzo ha rubato la penna della ragazza, lei gli ha chiesto di dargliela.
> 
> 3) The pirate doesn't want to lose his treasure. He has asked if the mermaid can take it to him later.
> ... Il pirata non vuole perdere il suo tesoro, lui ha chiesto se la sirena può glielo portare più tardi.
> 
> Before I torture myself even more with trying to translate these sentences, I wanna see if I'm correct so far, and that might spur me on to bigger sentences.


 

Couple of hints on the English, I'll leave the Italian to the experts.

Loose/lose is a common mistake for learners of English, so I wanted to note it for you and others:

If your shoe is loose, you may lose it.


----------



## vincenzochiaravalle

Hello!




			
				Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> 1) I forgot the reason that she told me to give it to him.
> ... Ho dimenticato il la ragione che per cui lei mi detto glielo dare di darglielo.
> 
> 2) When the boy stole the girl's pen, she asked him to give her it. (wouldn't it be better: "to give it back to her"?)
> ....Quando il ragazzo ha rubato la penna della ragazza, lei gli ha chiesto di ridargliela (ri- for "back"). Good
> 
> 3) The pirate doesn't want to lose his treasure, He has asked if the mermaid can take it to him later.
> ... Il pirata non vuole perdere il suo tesoro, lui Ha chiesto se la sirena (maybe "alla sirena se" is better) può glielo glielo può (w.o.) portare più tardi.
> This one doesn't make much sense, does it...? http://forum.wordreference.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


 

Take care,
V.


----------



## vincenzochiaravalle

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I'm so relived lol!!!
> 
> - sciarada, I see you've replaced "che" with "per cui" - Howcome, what difference does it make and what does it mean?


 

If I can cut in, "che" just doesn't work here. "per cui" is "the reason WHY", you may also think "the reason FOR WHICH"

On the other hand, "che" would be used, for example, here: "La ragione che le ho dato è che sono malato. In realtà non voglio proprio andare a trovarla..." --> "The reason I gave her is I feel sick; truth is I just don't want to see her..."


Hope this helps,

V.


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I'm so relived lol!!!
> 
> - sciarada, I see you've replaced "che" with "per cui" - Howcome, what difference does it make and what does it mean?
> 
> Besides that, I'm pleased, I'll try and do a few more in a bit .


 
Well, It is all about grammar, It can sound difficult to foreigners but I will try my best o explain:
Dimenticare is a transitive verb so it has to be followed by an object, and your object is:la ragione so after that you cannot have an other object (what we would call complemento oggetto) the reason why becomes la ragione per la quale not la ragione che.
Everything depends on the verb you are using.
I don't know if it is clear the best thing is to learn it with practice!
Anyway, if you have further questions I'll be happy to try to help you!!


----------



## Alxmrphi

4) Hello, I have two brothers and one sister, the oldest of the two brothers is called John, and the youngest is called Luca. One day my mum bought a blue pen. After talking to my sister little, she gave it to her and said "Now I want you to give it to your brother, Luca, give it to him now!".
 ... Ciao, ho due fratelli ed una sorella, il più vecchio del due fratelli è chiamato John e il più giovane è chiamato Luca. Un giornato mia madre ha comprato una penna blu. Dopo parlando alla mia sorella piccola, lei gliela dà e lei ha detto "Adesso, voglio la dai a tuo fratello, Luca, gliela dà adesso!".

That is probably incredibly wrong so I'm gonna do two more smaller sentences.

5) When I was at the circus, a clown saw me eating a pie and asked me to give it to him.
... Quando ero al circo, un pagliaccio (mi vedava/mi ha veduto) mangiare una crostata e mi ha detto darglielo.

6) It was given to me when I was ten, can you wear it after I send it to you?
... Mi ha dato quando ero dieci, puoi portarlo dopo te lo mando.

Ahh they are going to be so wrong!


----------



## sciarada

I think it might be better if you open a new post for that!
Anyway I am going to try to answer to you fom here!
Hello, I have two brothers and one sister, the oldest of the two brothers is called John, and the youngest is called Luca. One day my mum bought a blue pen. After talking to my sister little, she gave it to her and said "Now I want you to give it to your brother, Luca, give it to him now!".
... Ciao, ho due fratelli ed una sorella, il più vecchio dei due ( you don't need to repeat brother again) è chiamato ( not wrong but italians would find it weird, si chiama is more natural) John e il più giovane si chiama Luca. Un giornato mia madre ha comprato una penna blu. Dopo parlando a mia sorella piccola (again, not wrong but odd,I would probably say: parlando con la mia sorellina or con mia sorella più piccola) lei gliela dà (This is present, you need the past: glie la diede or glie l'ha data) e ha (you don't need the subject again) detto "Adesso, voglio che tu la dia a tuo fratello, Luca, dagliela adesso! (imperativo)".
Ok, to sum up, I would say something like that:
Ciao, ho una sorella e due fratelli, il più grande/vecchio dei due si chiama John e il più giovane Luca. Un giorno mia madre ha comparto una penna blu. Poi, parlando con e mia sorella più piccola, gliel'ha data e le ha detto: "Ora io voglio che tu la dia a tuo fratello Luca, dagliela ora/ adesso!"

That is probably incredibly wrong so I'm gonna do two more smaller sentences.

5) When I was at the circus, a clown saw me eating a pie and asked me to give it to him.
... Quando ero al circo, un pagliaccio mi ha visto or mi vide (veduto is not wrong simply archaic) mangiare una crostata e mi ha detto di dargliela (crostata is a female name).

6) It was given to me when I was ten, can you wear it after I send it to you?
Mi è stato dato quanto avevo 10 anni, lo puoi portare/indossare dopo che io te lo mando? ( it is hard without context but something like that)

I hope I didn't confuse you more!!
Good luck!


----------



## Alxmrphi

Replying to previous threads: 

About the "per cui" thing, a few things:


> Dimenticare is a transitive verb so it has to be followed by an object, and your object is:la ragione so after that you cannot have an other object



Do I? Where?

Can you give me the line in English, which a more literal translation "I forgot the reason for which she told me to give it to him." - Is this it?


----------



## Manuel_M

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> 4) Hello, I have two brothers and one sister, the oldest of the two brothers is called John, and the youngest is called Luca. One day my mum bought a blue pen. After talking to my sister little, she gave it to her and said "Now I want you to give it to your brother, Luca, give it to him now!".
> ... Ciao, ho due fratelli ed una sorella, il più vecchio del due fratelli è chiamato John e il più giovane è chiamato Luca. Un giornato mia madre ha comprato una penna blu. Dopo parlando alla mia sorella piccola, lei gliela dà e lei ha detto "Adesso, voglio la dai a tuo fratello, Luca, gliela dà adesso!".
> 
> Ciao, ho due fratelli e uns sorella; il più grande dei due (fratelli) si chiama John, e il più giovane si chiama Luca. Un giorno mia madre ha comprato una penna blu. Dopo aver parlato con la mia piccola sorella, lei gliela ha data ( or gliel'ha data) e ha detto. " Adesso voglio che to la dia a tio fratello Luca. Dagliela immediatamente."
> 
> 5) When I was at the circus, a clown saw me eating a pie and asked me to give it to him.
> ... Quando ero al circo, un pagliaccio (mi vedava/mi ha veduto) mangiare una crostata e mi ha detto darglielo.
> Quando ero al circo, un pagliaccio mi ha visto/mi ha veduto)mangiare una crostata e mi ha detto di dargliela.
> 
> 6) It was given to me when I was ten, can you wear it after I send it to you?
> ... Mi ha dato quando ero dieci, puoi portarlo dopo te lo mando.
> Mi è stata data quando avevi dieci anni; te la puoi mettere dopo che io te la mando?
> 
> Ahh they are going to be so wrong!


 
You know I'm not a native speaker of either language.


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> Replying to previous threads:
> 
> About the "per cui" thing, a few things:
> 
> 
> Do I? Where?
> 
> Can you give me the line in English, which a more literal translation "I forgot the reason for which she told me to give it to him." - Is this it?


Yes that is a literal translation: 
I forgot the reason for which she told me
Ho dimenticato la ragione per cui or per la quale lei mi ha detto

Dimenticare: chi? cosa? la ragione
la ragione: di che cosa? not simply che cosa

Hope it helps!


----------



## Alxmrphi

I don't understand this :

Mi è stata data quando avevi dieci anni; te la puoi mettere dopo che io te la mando?

1) Stata?
2) the "te" after ";"
3) the "che"

I need way more practice.


----------



## Alxmrphi

sciarada said:
			
		

> Yes that is a literal translation:
> I forgot the reason for which she told me
> Ho dimenticato la ragione per cui or per la quale lei mi ha detto
> 
> Dimenticare: chi? cosa? la ragione
> la ragione: di che cosa? not simply che cosa
> 
> Hope it helps!



I'm not sure what you are saying.

To forget : who? what? the reason
The reason : of what? not simple "what"

I can read it, but I don't know what you're telling me.


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> I don't understand this :
> 
> Mi è stata data quando avevi dieci anni; te la puoi mettere dopo che io te la mando?
> 
> 1) Stata?
> 2) the "te" after ";"
> 3) the "che"
> 
> I need way more practice.


 
Stato or stata depends on what that "it" in english is, anyway this is the way to make a verb passive: stato plus participle.

Te is a pronoun: in english you say can you wear it? and in italian we say : te la puoi mettere meanin puoi mettere questa

In eglish after doesn't want any preposition after but in italian when after is followed by a verb you have o say dopo che
some examples:
Dopo il viaggio (noun)
Dopo che te l'ho detto (verb)
Dopo che abbiamo mangiato (verb)
Dopo cena (noun)
Dopo aver mangiato (noun)


----------



## Alxmrphi

So a rule to go into my grammar rule book is :

The English word "after" when translated into Italian, if followed by a verb (generaly) "che" is inserted in between them?

*"te la puoi mettere"
"puoi mettere questa"*
letterale = to you it can you put/wear
"     "   " = you can put/wear this
?
*Can you wear it* is the end translation, and all words are accounted for and make sense, except for that "te", I don't know where or why it fits.

Can you = puoi.
Wear = mettere.
It = la.

I think I'm getting the hang of this now, one other thing, I thought a pronoun without an antecedant is default masculine? Yet you translated "it" as "la", howcome?


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> So a rule to go into my grammar rule book is :
> 
> The English word "after" when translated into Italian, if followed by a verb (generaly) "che" is inserted in between them?
> As a general rule this can work!!just remeber that in italian verbs at the infinitive form can also be nouns!
> *"te la puoi mettere"*
> *"puoi mettere questa"*
> letterale = to you it can you put/wear
> " " " = you can put/wear this
> ?
> 
> *Can you wear it* is the end translation, and all words are accounted for and make sense, except for that "te", I don't know where or why it fits.
> 
> Can you = puoi.
> Wear = mettere.
> It = la.
> 
> I think I'm getting the hang of this now, one other thing, I thought a pronoun without an antecedant is default masculine? Yet you translated "it" as "la", howcome?


Yes, generally we use the masculine when we don't know the subject I used la simply because I assumed that was a t-shirt and my mind automatically wrote "la"!


----------



## Alxmrphi

lol, that makes sense, could you explain about the "te" thing (the first one) - Where it doesn't seem to be translated into English.  Then I'll have enough to think about then.


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> lol, that makes sense, could you explain about the "te" thing (the first one) - Where it doesn't seem to be translated into English.  Then I'll have enough to think about then.


 
No worries  As I sayd te is a pronoun and it replaces questo/ quello/ codesto and so on
Can you wear it after I send it to you?
Puoi (can you) metterlo (weat it) dopo che (after) te (it) l'ho mandato (send to you).
So this "te" actually replaces questo: Puoi metterlo dopo che io ti ho mandato questo? But nobody would say something like this in Italy.

These te, me, gli, li....are probably one of the most difficult part in our grammar, they act as objects and are pronouns. Some examples may help:
Me lo presti?
Mi presti questo?

Te lo presto
Ti presto questo

Mi ha dato un libro, glielo ridarò il mese prossimo
Mi ha dato un libro, ridarò questo a lui il mese prossimo.

I should write a grammar book 
Anyway, don't esitate to ask, i Italy we say: se non ci si aiuta tra noi!


----------



## Alxmrphi

a) se non ci si aiuta tra noi! - in inglese  ?
b) I'm not sure if you understand what I mean...

" Puoi (can you) metterlo (weat it) dopo che (after) te (it) l'ho mandato (send to you)."
- This explanation is fine for me, it makes perfect sense, before you appended "la" (now "lo") to mettere, it was before "puoi" which again, makes perfect sense, it's the "te" BEFORE the "la" in this example



> 6) It was given to me when I was ten, can you wear it after I send it to you?
> ... Mi ha dato quando ero dieci, puoi portarlo dopo te lo mando.
> Mi è stata data quando avevi dieci anni; *te *la puoi mettere dopo che io te la mando?




It's this one I don't get, I tried to think of Questo in there and it didn't really make sense, is this the one you're talking about, not the "io *te* la mando".

Also, you altered the tense of mandare, "After I send it to you", but you made it a past participle, "Can you wear it after I *sent* it to you" doesn't make sense, ave I misunderstood or not? That's why I put it in the present tense.

Can you (maybe not to do with Double Object Pronouns) write a few sentences using the grammar rule you're talking about so I can get more of a grasp of what it's about? - Thank you,.


----------



## ratto

Scusa ma "te"=questo, come'??


----------



## Alxmrphi

That's exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## sciarada

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> a) se non ci si aiuta tra noi! - in inglese  ?
> literaly it might be If we don't help each other among us (?) I don't know if it does have a sense in english, the meaning is that people having the same experiencs should help each other!
> 
> b) I'm not sure if you understand what I mean...
> 
> 
> " Puoi (can you) metterlo (weat it) dopo che (after) te (it) l'ho mandato (send to you)."
> - This explanation is fine for me, it makes perfect sense, before you appended "la" (now "lo") to mettere, it was before "puoi" which again, makes perfect sense, it's the "te" BEFORE the "la" in this example
> 
> 
> 
> It's this one I don't get, I tried to think of Questo in there and it didn't really make sense, is this the one you're talking about, not the "io *te* la mando".
> Oh, you were talking about te la puoi mettere? this one is an other matter!!!! This has to do with the fact that "mettere" meaning wear in italian is reflexive, so mettere a me stesso.
> In italian some verbs, expecially the ones regarding actions directed to the person's body, are reflexive: pettinarsi (to brush) vestirsi (put on clothes) lavarsi (wash oneself) are all reflexive verbs, and so you will have:
> Io mi metto la maglia
> Tu ti metti la maglia
> Lui si mette la maglia
> Noi ci mettiamo la maglia
> And so on...
> 
> Also, you altered the tense of mandare, "After I send it to you", but you made it a past participle, "Can you wear it after I *sent* it to you" doesn't make sense, ave I misunderstood or not? That's why I put it in the present tense.
> Well, I assume that before you send something to someone and after he/she can wear it, so technically your action of sending comes first, so in italian we would say:
> Quando/Dopo che te la mando, (te) la puoi mettere?
> Even if this is not completely perfect, and I would never say that, is commonly accepted, the best sentence would anyway be:
> Dopo che te l'avrò mandata, (te) la puoi mettere?
> 
> I don't know if I answered to allyour questions, if not just ask!
> I hope I haven't confused you more!


----------



## ratto

Puoi metterlo dopo che te l'ho mandato.
can /you wear it/after/to you/it I have sent.
Scusa ma non mi sembra giusta perche "l' "significa"it" o "questo".


----------



## sciarada

ratto said:
			
		

> Puoi metterlo dopo che te l'ho mandato.
> can /you wear it/after/to you/it I have sent.
> Scusa ma non mi sembra giusta perche "l' "significa"it" o "questo".


 

Puoi (can) metterlo (mettere questo wear it) dopo che (after) io te l'ho mandato ( io ho mandato questo a te I have sent it to you)

I MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT TE YOU BOTH MEANT!!!!! SORRY!!!!! 
This te is simply a te, to you!!!  
Sorry!!!


----------



## ratto

Meno male,stavo per cercare per il mio libro ''beginners"


----------



## sciarada

ratto said:
			
		

> Meno male,stavo per cercare (you don't need the "per") il mio libro ''beginners"


----------



## ratto

Grazie sciarada.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Hahaha, how ironic lol.

If the first "te" is there because mettersi is reflexive, I understand completely why it's needed, I just didn't know it was reflexive and it confused me.

Which means ratto's example :



> Puoi metterlo dopo che te l'ho mandato.
> can /you wear it/after/to you/it I have sent.
> Scusa ma non mi sembra giusta perche "l' "significa"it" o "questo".



This would need the reflexive pronoun of mettersi, correct?

sciarda..



> This te is simply a te, to you!!!



I wasn't talking about this "te" I was talking about this one :



> *te *la puoi mettere dopo che io te la mando?



where the "la" is a DOP for a feminine word.
Have I understood all this? Most of it anyway?

Thanx!


----------



## ratto

Pensavo che ci ha spiegato tutto chiaramente no??


----------



## sciarada

that te you're talking about in te la puoi mettere is because mettere in relexive in italian, the la instead stands for it:
Ti puoi mettere la maglietta (tela puoi mettere)
Mi puoi mettere la maglietta (me la puoi mettere)
Maybe it's my fault I just kept on confusing you with all te,la etc. it is just sometimes the same things in the text have different meanings!!!
Anyway, I am here and I'll try my best to explain!


----------



## sciarada

ratto said:
			
		

> Pensavo che ci ha spiegato tutto chiaramente no??


Pensavo ci avesse (non ci ha)you need a congiuntivo after pensare


----------



## ratto

Oops grazie sciarada,


----------



## Alxmrphi

sciarada said:
			
		

> that te you're talking about in te la puoi mettere is because mettere in relexive in italian, the la instead stands for it:
> Ti puoi mettere la maglietta (tela puoi mettere)
> Mi puoi mettere la maglietta (me la puoi mettere)
> Maybe it's my fault I just kept on confusing you with all te,la etc. it is just sometimes the same things in the text have different meanings!!!
> Anyway, I am here and I'll try my best to explain!



You're talking about when it means to wear, it isn't reflexive when meaning "to put" ? - guisto?


----------



## jyi90

I'm just making sure. 

_glielo_ (for example) can also be capitalized when it's used to address someone formally? (like _lei_ to _Lei_)


I'm asking because my book did not capitalize _glielo_ even though in the conversation a doctor was addressing a patient. same w/_loro_ (_Loro_) when used in double object pronoun, correct? thanks!

my book: 
_Sì, ora gliela misuro..._
Yes, I will measure it for you now. (_Gliela_?)


----------



## underhouse

Hi and welcome!

Your book is right!


----------



## jyi90

*R*eally? *T*hank you!
*S*o I don't ever capitalize _glielo_ (except when it's at the beginning of sentences)? 
*H*ow about for _loro_?


----------



## housecameron

jyi90 said:


> really? thank you!
> so I don't ever capitalize _glielo_ No capitalization (except when it's at the beginning of sentences)?
> how about for _loro _?No capitalization


 
Here are some tips.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Contesto:  La mamma deve sempre andare con la bambina in braccio, altrimenti piange.  Vuole lamentarsi usando il verbo *"portarsi dietro".*
 
"Io devo sempre portarmete dietro!"
"Io devo sempre portarmi dietro te!"
 
Sono questi frase giuste?  Grazie!


----------



## Parergon

(Io) devo sempre portarti dietro;
(Io) devo sempre portarmi dietro te.


----------



## giacinta

Hi,
I see Cassidy's Mom's second suggestion was OK.  What about the first one--"Devo sempre portarmete dietro"---is this wrong?

Thanks,

Giacinta


----------

