# as if it was / as if it is



## arrier_arri

Hi there !

I´d like to know the differences between both terms :

- You should speak english as if it was your official language.
- you should shout out victory as if you have already reached your objetives.

when have I use as if it is/ as if it was ?

Thanks in advance.


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## aztlaniano

En ambos casos usaría el subjuntivo:
As if it were ...
As if you had ...


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## Roger Slater

This is something native speakers often get wrong, and educated native speakers sometimes debate.  I agree with aztlanano here.

But I only agree with him if the context shows that the speaker does not believe that the assertion after "as if" can possibly be true and so, from his perspective, it is contrary to fact.  If the speaker is allowing for the possibility that the assertion after "as if" might be true, then it would be proper to use the indicative mood instead of the subjunctive.  (I can cite grammar manuals to support my view, although let me emphasize that this is the kind of thing that educated students of grammar often debate and average speakers often get "wrong."  Speakers of English are generally not as careful about the subjunctive as speakers of Spanish are, and the subjunctive mood is fading from the English language over time).


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## bubblebeams

"As if" shouldn't be used with the indicative in English. The use of the phrase _ipso facto_ suggests the counterfactual or possible.

If orientation is toward something that _could_ be the case but isn't, use "as if it _were"_ (They are acting as if they were mad.)
This is true as well in the case with a past event to explain the same possibility existed, or _could have been_ the case. (They were acting as if they were mad.)

If you are going to make a reference to an earlier past event, you will use the pluperfect: "as if...had" (They were acting as if they had gone mad) 
Note in the second example, the "going mad" has already happened prior to the event.


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## gengo

I am definitely in the subjunctive camp on this one, but it is safe to say that many native English speakers use the indicative after "as if," so many that it is difficult to say that the indicative is categorically wrong.

Ex.
He's spending as if there is no tomorrow. (common)
He's spending as if there were no tomorrow. (grammatically correct)

I would guess that the great majority of native speakers would say it the first way.  I'm not one of them, but that's only because I'm fascinated by language and try to use good grammar.  This is probably another example of how the subjunctive is dying out from English.


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## Forero

I agree with the others about these particular sentences ("... as if there were no tomorrow", "You should ... as if ..."). They require subjunctive because there is an obvious counterfactual idea here.

But "as if" can also be properly used with indicative, in the right context:

_He looks as if he has seen a ghost._

Personally I prefer _like_ with indicative and _as though_ with subjunctive, but _as if_ can substitute for both _like_ and _as though_.

Yes, I realize that schools still teach that we should avoid using _like_ in favor of _as if_, but in my opinion that just adds confusion where it is not necessary.


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> I agree with the others about these particular sentences ("... as if there were no tomorrow", "You should ... as if ..."). They require subjunctive because there is an obvious counterfactual idea here.
> 
> But "as if" can also be properly used with indicative, in the right context:
> 
> _He looks as if he has seen a ghost._
> 
> Personally I prefer _like_ with indicative and _as though_ with subjunctive, but _as if_ can substitute for both _like_ and _as though_.
> 
> Yes, I realize that schools still teach that we should avoid using _like_ in favor of _as if_, but in my opinion that just adds confusion where it is not necessary.


As I've understood it, we can use the indicative mood with "as if" and "as though" when the fact is true. In your example, the person says that their friend has really seen a ghost, right?


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## gengo

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> As I've understood it, we can use the indicative mood with "as if" and "as though" when the fact is true. In your example, the person says that their friend has really seen a ghost, right?



No.  "As if" always introduces a hypothetical idea.  It is exactly like "como si" in Spanish.  That is, it means _he looks the same way that he would look if he had seen a ghost_.



Forero said:


> He looks as if he has seen a ghost.



This is correct, but it is still a subjunctive construction.  It's just that in the present tense, only the "be" verb has a different subjunctive form.  If we change "see" to "be," the subjunctive becomes apparent:  He looks as if he were a ghost.


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> As I've understood it, we can use the indicative mood with "as if" and "as though" when the fact is true. In your example, the person says that their friend has really seen a ghost, right?


There are two different finite constructions available with "as if", an indicative construction, which can be in any tense (e.g. "as if he (currently) is", "as if he was (in the past)" "as if he will be (soon)"), and a subjunctive construction, always past tense in form (e.g. "as if he (currently) were", "as if he had been (in the past)", "as if he were to be (soon)").

The difference in meaning, however, is subjective.

Indicative construction:

_This apple looks like it's ripe.
This apple looks as if it is ripe._

If I think the apple really is ripe, I will use the "it's"/"it is" construction, or opt for "This apple looks ripe" or "This apple looks to be ripe".

But if I don't know whether the apple really is ripe, I still might use the "it's"/"it is" construction, if that is how the apple in question looks to me.

In fact, even if I know the apple in question is not ripe, if it really does look ripe, I can still use the "it's"/"it is" construction, as well as the non-finite constructions I mentioned:

_This apple looks_ (_like it's_ / _as if it is / _to be) _ripe._

Subjunctive construction:
_
This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden.
This apple looks as if it were direct from the garden of Eden._

As far as I know, the garden of Eden is not an actual place today, and I don't even know what an apple direct from there would look like. But in that case, I can say "This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden", because, though I don't believe it could possibly really be direct from a non-existent place, if it really does look perfectly formed as best I can tell, this subjunctive sentence still makes sense to me.

As for "He looks as if he has seen a ghost", "he has" is obviously indicative. This sentence is still usable if, for example, I know him as a calm, matter-of-fact sort of guy, but on this particular occasion he looks completely scared. He may be white in the face and have a cold sweat. I don't have to know whether what has scared him is real; I can still say he has that look.

Some people might say he is scared out of his mind, but I would prefer not to say that because I believe he still has his mind, despite his present state of mind.

I have no qualms about saying he looks like he's seen a ghost when somebody else might say he is scared out of his mind. That does not make their statement true or my statement ungrammatical.

I hope this makes sense.


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> There are two different finite constructions available with "as if", an indicative construction, which can be in any tense (e.g. "as if he (currently) is", "as if he was (in the past)" "as if he will be (soon)"), and a subjunctive construction, always past tense in form (e.g. "as if he (currently) were", "as if he had been (in the past)", "as if he were to be (soon)").
> 
> The difference in meaning, however, is subjective.
> 
> Indicative construction:
> 
> _This apple looks like it's ripe.
> This apple looks as if it is ripe._
> 
> If I think the apple really is ripe, I will use the "it's"/"it is" construction, or opt for "This apple looks ripe" or "This apple looks to be ripe".
> 
> But if I don't know whether the apple really is ripe, I still might use the "it's"/"it is" construction, if that is how the apple in question looks to me.
> 
> In fact, even if I know the apple in question is not ripe, if it really does look ripe, I can still use the "it's"/"it is" construction, as well as the non-finite constructions I mentioned:
> 
> _This apple looks_ (_like it's_ / _as if it is / _to be) _ripe._
> 
> Subjunctive construction:
> _
> This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden.
> This apple looks as if it were direct from the garden of Eden._
> 
> As far as I know, the garden of Eden is not an actual place today, and I don't even know what an apple direct from there would look like. But in that case, I can say "This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden", because, though I don't believe it could possibly really be direct from a non-existent place, if it really does look perfectly formed as best I can tell, this subjunctive sentence still makes sense to me.
> 
> As for "He looks as if he has seen a ghost", "he has" is obviously indicative. This sentence is still usable if, for example, I know him as a calm, matter-of-fact sort of guy, but on this particular occasion he looks completely scared. He may be white in the face and have a cold sweat. I don't have to know whether what has scared him is real; I can still say he has that look.
> 
> Some people might say he is scared out of his mind, but I would prefer not to say that because I believe he still has his mind, despite his present state of mind.
> 
> I have no qualms about saying he looks like he's seen a ghost when somebody else might say he is scared out of his mind. That does not make their statement true or my statement ungrammatical.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.


But if I say, "He looks as if he had seen a ghost," is it correct having the same meaning?



Forero said:


> There are two different finite constructions available with "as if", an indicative construction, which can be in any tense (e.g. "as if he (currently) is", "as if he was (in the past)" "as if he will be (soon)"), and a subjunctive construction, always past tense in form (e.g. "as if he (currently) were", "as if he had been (in the past)", "as if he were to be (soon)").
> 
> The difference in meaning, however, is subjective.
> 
> Indicative construction:
> 
> _This apple looks like it's ripe.
> This apple looks as if it is ripe._
> 
> If I think the apple really is ripe, I will use the "it's"/"it is" construction, or opt for "This apple looks ripe" or "This apple looks to be ripe".
> 
> But if I don't know whether the apple really is ripe, I still might use the "it's"/"it is" construction, if that is how the apple in question looks to me.
> 
> In fact, even if I know the apple in question is not ripe, if it really does look ripe, I can still use the "it's"/"it is" construction, as well as the non-finite constructions I mentioned:
> 
> _This apple looks_ (_like it's_ / _as if it is / _to be) _ripe._
> 
> Subjunctive construction:
> _
> This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden.
> This apple looks as if it were direct from the garden of Eden._
> 
> As far as I know, the garden of Eden is not an actual place today, and I don't even know what an apple direct from there would look like. But in that case, I can say "This apple looks as though it were direct from the garden of Eden", because, though I don't believe it could possibly really be direct from a non-existent place, if it really does look perfectly formed as best I can tell, this subjunctive sentence still makes sense to me.
> 
> As for "He looks as if he has seen a ghost", "he has" is obviously indicative. This sentence is still usable if, for example, I know him as a calm, matter-of-fact sort of guy, but on this particular occasion he looks completely scared. He may be white in the face and have a cold sweat. I don't have to know whether what has scared him is real; I can still say he has that look.
> 
> Some people might say he is scared out of his mind, but I would prefer not to say that because I believe he still has his mind, despite his present state of mind.
> 
> I have no qualms about saying he looks like he's seen a ghost when somebody else might say he is scared out of his mind. That does not make their statement true or my statement ungrammatical.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.


But when it comes to past situations, I must always use the past tenses(either the past simple or the past perfect) and never present tenses, right?
For example: Ben fooled us as if we were fools(never "are").


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> But when it comes to past situations, I must always use the past tenses(either the past simple or the past perfect) and never present tenses, right?
> For example: Ben fooled us as if we were fools(never "are").


Yes. Past tense indicative:

_Ben treated us like we were fools.
The apple looked like it was ripe.
The apple looked as if it was ripe._

I prefer to use _like_ with indicative and _as though_ with subjunctive because of sentences like yours, in which both modes have the same form. I realize some people object to _like_ as a conjunction, but I think it makes the meaning clearer.


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> Yes. Past tense indicative:
> 
> _Ben treated us like we were fools.
> The apple looked like it was ripe.
> The apple looked as if it was ripe._
> 
> I prefer to use _like_ with indicative and _as though_ with subjunctive because of sentences like yours, in which both modes have the same form. I realize some people object to _like_ as a conjunction, but I think it makes the meaning clearer.


What about "if he [has/had] seen a ghost"?


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> What about "if he [has/had] seen a ghost"?


The same thing applies:

_He looks like _(or _as if_) _he has seen a ghost.
He looked like _(or _as if_) _he had seen a ghost._


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> The same thing applies:
> 
> _He looks like _(or _as if_) _he has seen a ghost.
> He looked like _(or _as if_) _he had seen a ghost._


Can't I say, "He looks as if he had seen a ghost"?


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> Can't I say, "He looks as if he had seen a ghost"?


Yes, but that is ambiguous without more context since _had_ can be either indicative or subjunctive.


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> Yes, but that is ambiguous without more context since _had_ can be either indicative or subjunctive.


What's the difference?


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> What's the difference?


I tried to explain that in #9.

"He looks as if he had seen a ghost" is a strange sentence by itself, hard to make sense of without context.


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## Palomi666

Forero said:


> "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" is a strange sentence by itself, hard to make sense of without context.


It's a common expression in Spanish. Parece que hayas visto un fantasma.


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> Yes. Past tense indicative:
> 
> _Ben treated us like we were fools.
> The apple looked like it was ripe.
> The apple looked as if it was ripe._
> 
> I prefer to use _like_ with indicative and _as though_ with subjunctive because of sentences like yours, in which both modes have the same form. I realize some people object to _like_ as a conjunction, but I think it makes the meaning clearer.


But if I say, "The apple looks as if it were mellow," is it unnatural or even incorrect?


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> Yes, but that is ambiguous without more context since _had_ can be either indicative or subjunctive.


Or, for example, "You're talking to me as if I were a fool!". Is to use that "were" incorrect ?


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## Forero

Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> But if I say, "The apple looks as if it were mellow," is it unnatural or even incorrect?


I wouldn't call it incorrect, but I have to say I don't understand what it might mean. What is the context?


Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> Or, for example, "You're talking to me as if I were a fool!". Is to use that "were" incorrect ?


No. Why would it be?


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> I wouldn't call it incorrect, but I have to say I don't understand what it might mean. What is the context?
> 
> No. Why would it be?


Does it mean what "The apple looks as if it is ripe" means?


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## Russulae 🍄🍄🍄

Forero said:


> I wouldn't call it incorrect, but I have to say I don't understand what it might mean. What is the context?
> 
> No. Why would it be?


Do you mean that "were" is incorrect?


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## gengo

Forero said:


> "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" is a strange sentence by itself, hard to make sense of without context.



It is not strange at all, and is perfectly correct.



Russulae 🍄🍄🍄 said:


> But if I say, "The apple looks as if it were mellow," is it unnatural or even incorrect?



It is unnatural for two reasons.  First, we don't use that adjective for apples (we use it for alcoholic drinks and other things), and second, it would be more natural to simplify the sentence as "the apple looks {tasty, ripe, etc.}."  No need for "as if."


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## Forero

gengo said:


> It is not strange at all, and is perfectly correct.


What does "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" mean to you?


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## gengo

Forero said:


> What does "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" mean to you?



That his appearance indicates that he saw a ghost.


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## Forero

gengo said:


> That his appearance indicates that he saw a ghost.


This sentence also requires context to justify the use of "saw", and there would still be no reason to change "saw" to "had seen".


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## gengo

Forero said:


> This sentence also requires context to justify the use of "saw", and there would still be no reason to change "saw" to "had seen".



I can't think of a situation in which the act of seeing the ghost would not be in the past, given that you are looking at someone who appears to have seen one in the recent past.


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## Palomi666

Forero said:


> This sentence also requires context to justify the use of "saw", and there would still be no reason to change "saw" to "had seen".


It’s a comparison. A subjunctive. It’s hypothetical - a ghost is not expected to have been seen. But we use that expression to make a comparison.

He has a bad look.




gengo said:


> it means _he looks the same way that he would look if he had seen a ghost_.


This.


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## Forero

gengo said:


> I can't think of a situation in which the act of seeing the ghost would not be in the past, given that you are looking at someone who appears to have seen one in the recent past.


I can't either, but I would need a reason to use "saw" instead of "has seen" to express simply that his appearance indicates he has seen a ghost recently.


Palomi666 said:


> It’s a comparison. A subjunctive. It’s hypothetical - a ghost is not expected to have been seen. But we use that expression to make a comparison.
> 
> He has a bad look.


The sentence "His appearance indicates that he saw a ghost" does not suggest a subjunctive in English, regardless of anyone's expectations.


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## gengo

Forero said:


> The sentence "His appearance indicates that he saw a ghost" does not suggest a subjunctive in English



No, but "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" does suggest the subjunctive, to me, at least.  Furthermore, that is the perfect use of the subjunctive because it is a sort of hypothetical statement.  There are no ghosts (I hope we can agree on that), so what we are saying there is "Of course he didn't really see a ghost, but if he had seen one, he would look like this."  That underlined part is the hypothetical.  That is what "as if" implies.


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## Palomi666

Forero said:


> The sentence "His appearance indicates that he saw a ghost" does not suggest a subjunctive in English


Yeah, that’s an indicative, right?

I think Gengo was trying to explain just the meaning of the original expression.


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## Forero

gengo said:


> No, but "He looks as if he had seen a ghost" does suggest the subjunctive, to me, at least.  Furthermore, that is the perfect use of the subjunctive because it is a sort of hypothetical statement.  There are no ghosts (I hope we can agree on that), so what we are saying there is "Of course he didn't really see a ghost, but if he had seen one, he would look like this."  That underlined part is the hypothetical.  That is what "as if" implies.


That is one of the things "as if" can mean, but it does not match what you said it meant in #26.


Palomi666 said:


> Yeah, that’s an indicative, right?


Right.


Palomi666 said:


> I think Gengo was trying to explain just the meaning of the original expression.


That's right. He was apparently thinking of what he was just describing in #31, i.e. "His appearance is (just) as it would be had he seen a ghost." That is subjunctive, and it can be expressed as "He looks as if (= as though) he had seen a ghost."

But what he describes in #26 is the other meaning of "as if", the one that requires indicative.

"His appearance indicates that he saw a ghost" (past simple indicative) corresponds to "He looks as if (= like) he saw a ghost" (past simple indicative), not "He looks as if he had seen a ghost."

But notice that if we start with "His appearance indicates that he had seen a ghost" (past perfect indicative), that translates to "He looks like (_or_ as if) he had seen a ghost" (past perfect indicative), and it looks just like the subjunctive sentence above.


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## Bevj

This old thread ran its course a very long time ago.  Reviving it with new examples and sentences about apples and ghosts is not helpful to our dictionary database and has led to a confusing muddle.
The thread is therefore being closed. 
Thank you to all who have contributed.


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