# Passive "habiendo".



## Bilbo Baggins

Hello:
I have a question about this sentence: "Luché, habiendo sido capturado." "I struggled, having been captured." Can I use "se" passive reflexive here to express passivity? (I think I can)
For example: "Luché, se me habiendo capturado." Is that possible?

Also, I know that when "haber", in a present, past, or future conjugation, is used with "estado" and the present participle we create a progressive perfect construct. However, what do we call_ these_ types of constructs --where "_haber_" is in the gerund form? Do they have a specific name? Replies in English, please. Thanks!


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## Rayines

Bilbo Baggins said:


> Hello:
> I have a question about this sentence: "Luché, habiendo sido capturado." "I struggled, having been captured." Can I use "se" passive reflexive here to express passivity? (I think I can)
> For example: "Luché, se me habiendo capturado." Is that possible? *In that case, you say: "Luché, habiéndoseme capturado....."*
> 
> Also, I know that when "haber", in a present, past, or future conjugation, is used with "estado" and the present participle we create a progressive perfect construct. However, what do we call_ these_ types of constructs --where "_haber_" is in the gerund form? Do they have a specific name? Replies in English, please. Thanks!


(If you can give an example for your second question.....).


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## Bilbo Baggins

Why have you tagged both pronouns to the end of "habiendo" like that? I thought that the auxillary verb and action verb were NEVER seperated. Can I say: "Luché, habiendo sido capturado."? Is _this_ wrong or is the "se" construction wrong? Rayines, what I mean is, do these types of verb constructs --using "habiendo"-- have a special name. Thanks.


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## Outsider

-seme = se + me

se: makes the passive voice
me: object pronoun


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## Jeromed

Bilbo Baggins said:


> Hello:
> I have a question about this sentence: "Luché, habiendo sido capturado." "I struggled, having been captured." quote]
> 
> Where did you read or hear that sentence?  Although that type of construction with the gerund is not uncommon even among native speakers, it is considered incorrect in proper Spanish.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks outsider, I realised that one second after I hit the post button.


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## Bilbo Baggins

Jeromed, I know that that sentence sounds odd. We actually use sentences like these in English. I´m just trying to cover all the bases.


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## Rayines

Bilbo Baggins said:


> What does the "seme" suffix mean? Can I say: "Luché, habiendo sido capturado."? Is _this_ wrong or is the "se" construction wrong? Rayines, what I mean is, do these types of verb constructs --using "habiendo"-- have a special name. Thanks.


I can only answer your first question. You ask if you can say: "Luché, se me habiendo capturado.", and I say no, but you could say: *"**Luché, habiéndoseme capturado....."*, simply changing the order of the pronouns. I don't know the special name for the moment......


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## mhp

Jeromed said:


> Where did you read or hear that sentence?  Although that type of construction with the gerund is not uncommon even among native speakers, it is considered incorrect in proper Spanish.


*gerundio* [...] Se emplea a veces en construcciones absolutas. _Consultando el diccionario, descubrí esa palabra._ (DRAE)​Is this what you mean?
  If so, there is nothing “incorrect” about it.

  Bilbo: Does this answer your second question?


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## Bilbo Baggins

MHP.....absolute constructions? We have discussed this once before, haven´t we? I think I see it now. The gerund is "tying" two verb concepts together. Is the "ser" version of my example acceptable, even though there is no agent stated?
Also, in the "se" version, why must one tag the pronouns onto "habiendo"? Why can´t I just place them at the beginning of the verb construct?


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## Jeromed

mhp said:


> *gerundio* [...] Se emplea a veces en construcciones absolutas. _Consultando el diccionario, descubrí esa palabra._ (DRAE)​Is this what you mean?
> If so, there is nothing “incorrect” about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Those two sentences are not equivalent, in terms of timing.
> 
> Bilbo's sentence is equivalent to "after having been captured, I struggled..."  This is fine in English, but not in Spanish. Spanish  accepts a gerund phrase only when the timing coincides with that of the main verb.  If he had wanted to express a coincidence in timing, he would've had to say:  "al ser capturado, luché..."
> 
> Your sentence is equivalent to "While looking at the dictionary, I discovered that word." It is a correct sentence, because the timing coincides.
> 
> The gerund in Spanish cannot always be used to copy the gerund in English.
Click to expand...


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## Jeromed

Bilbo Baggins said:


> Jeromed, I know that that sentence sounds odd. We actually use sentences like these in English. I´m just trying to cover all the bases.


 
I know that we use sentences like that one in English.  I'm a native speaker, and don't find it at all odd.

It's fine that you want to cover all bases.  It's even better to try to learn what is correct, and what is not, in proper Spanish.


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## mhp

Bilbo Baggins said:


> MHP.....absolute constructions? We have discussed this once before, haven´t we? I think I see it now. The gerund is "tying" two verb concepts together. Is the "ser" version of my example acceptable, even though there is no agent stated?
> Also, in the "se" version, why must one tag the pronouns onto "habiendo"? Why can´t I just place them at the beginning of the verb construct?


Yes Bilbo, I see it that way. I was surprised that you didn't recognize the form. 

The version with SER looks good to me. But I defer to judgment of native speakers for how natural it sounds.


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## Jeromed

Bilbo Baggins said:


> Also, in the "se" version, why must one tag the pronouns onto "habiendo"? Why can´t I just place them at the beginning of the verb construct?


 
Because constructions with the gerund don't allow it.  It's not idiomatic.


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## mhp

Jeromed said:


> Those two sentences are not equivalent, in terms of timing.
> 
> Bilbo's sentence is equivalent to "after having been captured, I struggled..."  This is fine in English, but not in Spanish. Spanish  accepts a gerund phrase only when the timing coincides with that of the main verb.  If he had wanted to express a coincidence in timing, he would've had to say:  "al ser capturado, luché..."
> 
> Your sentence is equivalent to "While looking at the dictionary, I discovered that word." It is a correct sentence, because the timing coincides.
> 
> The gerund in Spanish cannot always be used to copy the gerund in English.



I completely agree with you if, in fact, the timing is as you describe. When I read Bilbo's sentence, I interpret the timing to be concurrent: I struggled while being captured.

If Bilbo's intention is to say that he fought after having being captured, then the sentence is not constructed correctly.

--edit--
Now I'm not sure. At least in English, you cannot say: I struggled while having been captured.


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## brau

As for "luché, habiendo sido capturado", as a child, I was taught at school that this particular use of the gerund ought to be avoided, even if it's not at all uncommon to see it written. "Luché, tras haber sido capturado" would be my suggestion.


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## Outsider

Jeromed said:
			
		

> Bilbo Baggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, in the "se" version, why must one tag the pronouns onto "habiendo"? Why can´t I just place them at the beginning of the verb construct?
> 
> 
> 
> Because constructions with the gerund don't allow it. It's not idiomatic.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that they don't allow it, but clitic pronouns are normally placed after non-finite verbs (infinitives or gerunds) and imperatives. I think you can find proclisis at least in older Spanish, though.


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## mhp

brau said:


> As for "luché, habiendo sido capturado", as a child, I was taught at school that this particular use of the gerund ought to be avoided, even if it's not at all uncommon to see it written. "Luché, tras haber sido capturado" would be my suggestion.



Yes.

I agree with both you and Jeromed. Now I see it. You really cannot talk about concurrency in this case.


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## Jeromed

mhp said:


> Now I'm not sure. At least in English, you cannot say: I struggled while having been captured.


 
I agree.  "Having been captured" refers to a completed action.


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## brau

mhp said:


> Yes.
> 
> I agree with both you and Jeromed. Now I see it. You really cannot talk about concurrency in this case.


 
That's it. The thing is I understand that people find problems with this, since it is very common, probably one of the most recurrent mistakes in formal written Spanish as far as I've noticed. Moreover, there are many native people who are not aware of this construction being wrong.


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## Bilbo Baggins

So you´re saying that pronouns always come after gerunds and present participles? But I´ve been saying things like "Lo estoy leyendo."?  ¿No es correcto?
Also, you don´t ever tag pronouns on the ends of past participles do you? That´s a no-no, isn´t it?


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## Jeromed

brau said:


> That's it. The thing is I understand that people find problems with this, since it is very common, probably one of the most recurrent mistakes in formal written Spanish as far as I've noticed. Moreover, there are many native people who are not aware of this construction being wrong.


 
It's fairly common in Latin America, probably because of the influence of English.


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## Outsider

Bilbo Baggins said:


> So you´re saying that pronouns always come after gerunds and present participles? But I´ve been saying things like "Lo estoy leyendo."?  ¿No es correcto?


The rule applies to isolated infinitives and gerunds, but not to compound verbs.



Bilbo Baggins said:


> Also, you don´t ever tag pronouns on the ends of past participles do you? That´s a no-no, isn´t it?


You're right, it is. There was an error in my post which I've now corrected.


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## jmx

brau said:


> Moreover, there are many native people who are not aware of this construction being wrong.


You would make me happy if instead of 'wrong' you said 'not normative' or 'frowned upon by normativists', which are far more objective and neutral expressions. Please remember that not everyone accepts the normativist rules !


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## Ynez

I didn't know "habiendo sido capturado" is not correct. That type of structure appears frequently in battle/historic tales, for instance.

We can't say either in Spanish:

Mientras habiendo.....I won't finish it because we just don't say that.


The idea in "habiendo sido capturado" is like "después de haber sido capturado", yes.

Bilbo, habiéndoseme is like Rayines told you, I can't explain why. Anyhow, that is not used very often.


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## brau

jmartins said:


> You would make me happy if instead of 'wrong' you said 'not normative' or 'frowned upon by normativists', which are far more objective and neutral expressions. Please remember that not everyone accepts the normativist rules !


 
I bear in mind that not everyone accepts normativist rules (count me in, in many cases), but that doesn't change the fact that I think using the gerund that way is wrong.

So, even if I'd love to make you happy, I stand by what I said.


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## Jeromed

jmartins said:


> You would make me happy if instead of 'wrong' you said 'not normative' or 'frowned upon by normativists', which are far more objective and neutral expressions. Please remember that not everyone accepts the normativist rules !


 
But that's what wrong means:  Not normative.


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