# Urdu: Guilty



## panjabigator

Greetings all,

I've been super busy, so I haven't been able to read all the posts in the forum lately, but it's nice to see that it's getting busy.  

Anyway, I have a vocabulary query for you ماھرین اردو (māhirīn e urdū).  What is the the word for guilty in Urdu?  I want to say that "I'm guilty" without saying <merā kasūr>.  Is there a way to say it using the letter _mīm_ and then the root_ harūf_?  

Kasīr shukriya (probably incorrect, correct?),
PG


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## BP.

A word beginning in meem and containing thee root haroof??, couldn't think of that. But here are some words for guilty: _khataa kaar/waar_-خطاکار, _gunaah gaar_-گناھگار, _"aaSii_-عاصی, _quSoor waar_-قصوروار, _mu[z/dh]nib_-مذنب(rare, but ts derivative _mazmoom_ is used all the time).

I have the feeling that's not enough words.

katheer shukria, that's new but I wouldn't call it wrong. basyaar shukria is more conventional. We know good ol' bahut shukria isn't good enough for you!


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## Faylasoof

Mizaaj-e-giraaamii PG?

< Is there a way to say it using the letter _mīm_ and then the root_ harūf_? >

Did you have this in mind? 

مُجرِم

-_mīm_ followed by the root _hurūf_  j-r-m , a common word.

مُجرِم_mujrim_ = guilty (one who has been found guilty of an offence [_jurm_] as opposed to a _mulzim_ = accused – subject of an accusation [_ilzaam_]).

So to say <I’m guilty> using this, one could say:

<mai.n mujrim hoo.n> 

Except, normally we don’t use this as an everyday expression. Nobody wants to be labelled as such even if they are guilty. It is just too strong for this kind of use, i.e. for small / trivial matters, unless one wants to use it either in jest or sarcasm. 
The term _mujrim_ has heavy legal overtones and only a court of law can decide whether one should thus be called or not.

In everyday instances we would normally use words like < قَصُور وار quSoor waar> - very common. Others like خاطی _xaaTe_ (or مذنب_mudhnib_ – fits your bill, btw) are too rare.  

Just a small correction – the plural of _Harf_ (letter) is _Hur__ūf _(letters). I know in Indo-Pak many (perhaps most people) say _Harūf,_ but this is a mispronunciation. 

[For the new comers to the forum, we use <u> here as that in the word <put>]

… and in idiomatic Urdu we normally say:

_be hadd shukriyaa_

or 

_bahut bahut shukriyaa_


janaab-e-vaala meraa takht-e-xaab ab  mujhe xaab o naum  kii da’wat detaa hai aur mai.n ab ‘aazim-e-xaabgaah hoo.n!!
_

_


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## BP.

mas-ala nadarad, aap baishak fil faur mehv e istiraaHat ho jayai. chaahai takht e khaab pe, chaahai sar keyboard pe dhar ke!


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## omlick

Hi, I found this word in my Oxford English-Urdu dictionary which you might be able to use for "guilt" in the emotional sense,  although it does also seem to mean "criminal" but I guess you can take it on contextual meaning.  But I leave it up to native speakers to comment on its validity.

The word is  

مجرمانہ

and he used it in the expression for "guilty 
conscience"  مجرمانہ  ضمیر

.


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## panjabigator

Ah, thank you both.  I think <qasūr wār> works nicely.


> janaab-e-vaala meraa takht-e-xaab ab  mujhe xaab o naum  kii da’wat detaa hai aur mai.n ab ‘aazim-e-xaabgaah hoo.n!!



Nice!  I especially liked the <aazim e xaabgaah> 

Bahut bahut shukriya you two!


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## bakshink

Kasoorvar is used in Pujnabi as well and kasoor asfar as stands for mild guilt, khata is in poetic domain, gunaah is high sounding (used more often in films) and jurm and mujrim is legal jargon..... takhte-e-xaab ab mujhe naum kii da'wat deta hai.... first I thought Faylassof is invited for a dinner party!!!


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## bakshink

What is the meaning of these words?
mas-ala nadarad
fil faur mehv e istiraaHat
Naum


Thanks


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## panjabigator

I believe these words all deserve their own thread.
<meHv> means "captivated", I think.


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## BP.

Thanks omlick for evoking  مجرمانہ  ضمیر. I had left out _mujrim_ -مجرم- for 'guilty' on purpose so that the meaning isn't limited to 'convict', but I think the usage of مجرمانہ  ضمیر proves this limitation wasn't even there.


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## BP.

> What is the meaning of these words?
> mas-ala nadarad
> fil faur mehv e istiraaHat
> Naum


masala nadarad - masala nishta
 fil faur - fauran
mehv e istiraaHat - mustaghriq e khaftagi/khaab
 Naum - neend / the last two words on the previous line. NOT this!


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## bakshink

Thanks BP Ji


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## Faylasoof

omlick said:


> Hi, I found this word in my Oxford English-Urdu dictionary which you might be able to use for "guilt" in the emotional sense,  although it does also seem to mean "criminal" but I guess you can take it on contextual meaning.  But I leave it up to native speakers to comment on its validity.
> 
> The word is
> 
> مجرمانہ
> 
> and he used it in the expression for "guilty
> conscience"  مجرمانہ  ضمیر
> 
> .




 Omlick, can you tell me if this Oxford English-Urdu dictionary you menton was compiled and / or edited by the late Shaan-ul-Haqq Haqqii? If so, then I can tell you that although he has done an otherwise great job, he has also included defintions that not all agree on.

As I mention in my post above, we do not use< مجرم / مجرمانہ / مجرمانہ ضمیر > in indiomatic Urdu for everyday situations. These terms are only reserved for serious offences and can't be compared to the use of <guilty, guilty conscience etc.> in English.

I think it would not be unfair to say that <مجرمانہ ضمیر> is a literal translation from English and thus I'd call it a neologism. I haven't seen it used much, though as Urdu,like all other living languages are in a state of flux, its use could become more common. Time will tell.


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## BP.

bakshink said:


> Thanks BP Ji



Why do I get the feeling your thanking me has more to do with oriental courtesy and less with my post being useful for you?

Oh I know! Choice of words whose meaning might be as obscure as those they were meant to explain!

I apologize for the bad choice of words. There's no reason saying something that'll never be understood, innit. If you wish I could redo the post in English.


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## omlick

Faylasoof said:


> Omlick, can you tell me if this Oxford English-Urdu dictionary you menton was compiled and / or edited by the late Shaan-ul-Haqq Haqqii? If so, then I can tell you that although he has done an otherwise great job, he has also included defintions that not all agree on.
> 
> As I mention in my post above, we do not use< مجرم / مجرمانہ / مجرمانہ ضمیر > in indiomatic Urdu for everyday situations. These terms are only reserved for serious offences and can't be compared to the use of <guilty, guilty conscience etc.> in English.
> 
> I think it would not be unfair to say that <مجرمانہ ضمیر> is a literal translation from English and thus I'd call it a neologism. I haven't seen it used much, though as Urdu,like all other living languages are in a state of flux, its use could become more common. Time will tell.


 
Yep, you are 100% right, it is his dictionary.  And I can understand that some of the translations in this dictionary are probably off.  Translation can be very difficult and this is a  very large dictionary.

With this sense of "guilty"  (as an emotional state) I also have the same issue in Hindi, I really could not find any translation  that is not having to do with criminality.


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## BP.

A PM tells me that the meanings indeed need to be better explained. So here goes:

_nadarad, nishta_ - not, doesn't exist
_  fil faur, fauran_ - right away
_ meHv, mustaghriq, ghaltaan_ - engrossed, _Dooba_ 
Other meanings, such as deprived exist as well for _maHv_. 
_istiraaHat, khaftagi , naum _- sleep, _neend_ 

I hope its better explained now.


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## bakshink

Thanks BP

Now genuine and sincere
Straight from my heart-


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## panjabigator

ایک دوست نے مجھے ایک نیا مثال دیا ھے:



> میرا ضمیر مجھے ملامت کرتا ھے۔


انہوں نے فرمایا کہ اس کا مطلب "برا بھلا کھنا " ھے۔ کیا آپ لوگ مجھے مطلاح کر سکتے ھیں کہ اس جملہ کا ھجہ سحیح ھے کہ نہیں؟

پی جی


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## BP.

Yes Sir the spelling in the quote is alright.

For the rest of us it said "My conscience blames me.".


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## Todd The Bod

Faylasoof said:


> Mizaaj-e-giraaamii PG?
> 
> janaab-e-vaala meraa takht-e-xaab ab mujhe xaab o naum kii da’wat detaa hai aur mai.n ab ‘aazim-e-xaabgaah hoo.n!!
> 
> 
> mas-ala nadarad, aap baishak fil faur mehv e istiraaHat ho jayai. chaahai takht e khaab pe, chaahai sar keyboard pe dhar ke!


 
Translations, please?


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## BP.

^We'll need a separate thread, since these sentences have nothing in common with the current discussion.

In brief, one person said they're sleepy and that their bed is calling them, and the other quips in with the silly suggestion of sleeping on the keyboard.

For meanings of individual words, new thread. Or panjabigator will not be very pleased.


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## panjabigator

Re: Belligerent Pacifist.  Correct!  (also, thank you for the above confirmation).

Post 20 may be continued in this thread.


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## Sheikh_14

But how would we say "Don't make me feel guilty' ?


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## Qureshpor

Sheikh_14 said:


> But how would we say "Don't make me feel guilty' ?


mujhe iHsaas-i-jurm meN nah Daaliye.


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## Faylasoof

Sheikh_14 said:


> But how would we say "Don't make me feel guilty' ?


 قصور وار  _*quSuur-waar*_ orخاطی pronounced _*xaaTe*_  (actually _* ٔ  خاطی xaate'*_ but the ending _hamza_ is usually omitted both in writing and most normal speech, only when the word is stressed might you hear it).
_*quSuur-waar / xaaTe Thairaanaa*_ = To cause to / make someone feel guilty or blame somebody (and thereby make him /  her feel guilty).


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> *q*_*uSuur-waar / xaaTe Thairaanaa*_ = To cause to / make someone feel guilty or blame somebody (and thereby make him /  her feel guilty).


Well, Thaihraanaa. I think it is a typo. As per causing the feeling, maybe mujhe qusuurwaar hone kaa iHsaas na do/ nah dilaa'o.

qusuur waar Thahraanaa means in the legalese to hold guilty.


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## Sheikh_14

marrish said:


> Well, Thaihraanaa. I think it is a typo. As per causing the feeling, maybe mujhe qusuurwaar hone kaa iHsaas na do/ nah dilaa'o.
> 
> qusuur waar Thahraanaa means in the legalese to hold guilty.



You may know better but personally I believe that Faylasoof sahib's input of Qasurwaar thairaanaa could be used especially in the context of "Mujhe Khamkhaa Qasurwaar Maat Thairao! i.e. Don't make me feel guilty when I am not the culprit. Although, in formal legal terms it is used in the manner forwarded by yourself. 

However, if coinages were to be undertaken than perhaps the state of being guilty could also be Qasuur-waarii, may be wrong here but it is just an idea. i.e. Kis Qasuurwaari kay Gham main Mujhe Thairaa diya, Why have you given me the sorrows of guilt when I am not the one.


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## Sheikh_14

BP. said:


> A PM tells me that the meanings indeed need to be better explained. So here goes:
> Short
> 
> _nadarad, nishta_ - not, doesn't exist
> _  fil faur, fauran_ - right away
> _ meHv, mustaghriq, ghaltaan_ - engrossed, _Dooba_
> Other meanings, such as deprived exist as well for _maHv_.
> _istiraaHat, khaftagi , naum _- sleep, _neend_
> 
> I hope its better explained now.



Just a short request, could you type Nadarad in Nastaliiq, just want to see if the word contains an alif in the middle or not; i.e. if its nadarad or Nadaarad. Would much appreciate it. If my memory serves me correct there is an alif in the middle making it Nadaarad


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## eskandar

Yes, it is ندارد _nadaarad_ with an alif in the middle.


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## Sheikh_14

Wouldn't mujrimaanah zamiir= a criminal conscience rather than a guilty conscience? It would befit the state of a criminal mind and not that of one who repents his sins. In fact the word mujriimaanah means like that of a criminal. We can however refer to guilt as a mujrimaanah iHsaas- since there is a feeling of criminality. Either mujriimaanagii or mujriimiiyat could also be our alternative to criminality.Nevertheless, how would we than refer to a guilty conscience? Here are a couple of alternatives I could think of:
a) jurm/jaraa'im zadah zamiir.
b) jurm/jaraa'im jalaa zamiir- burnt and hurting.
c) jurm au jaraa'im kaa maaraa zamiir.

I know jurmanaa refers to a fine or anything that refers to a form of minor punishment but can it also be linked to linked to guilt?


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