# rat, mouse, mole, bat



## ThomasK

What are your translations of these words? Are there any others that might be linked with one of those? ADD: Like the bat!

Dutch: *rat, muis, mol + vleermuis *_(BAT, probably a mouse decorated with wings, literally)_

We have three different words, but I know that in some languages the mole is a blind mouse (Greek: /tuflopantikas/ If I am not mistaken)... So feel free to add any other mouse-y, rat-y animals!


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## apmoy70

Greek:

Rat: *«Αρουραίος»* [a.ɾuˈɾe.ɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ἀρουραῖος» ărouraî̯ŏs* --> _rural (mouse is omitted)_, a stranded adjective that stood for the field rat < Classical fem. noun *«ἄρουρᾱ» ắrourā* --> _arable land, land in general_ (PIE *h₂erh₃- _to plow_ cf Skt. उर्वरा (urvarā), _earth_, Lat. arāre).

Mouse: *«Ποντικός»* [pɔn.diˈkɔs] (masc.), (dial.) *«πόντικας»* [ˈpɔn.di.kas] (masc.) & colloquially *«ποντίκι»* [pɔnˈdi.ci] (neut.) < Koine masc. noun *«ποντικός» pŏntikós* --> _mouse_, a word that replaced the "difficult" Classical word for it, the 3rd declension masc. noun *«μῦς» mûs** (for its etymology see below). *«Ποντικός»* is a nominalised adjective and comes from *«ποντικός μῦς» pŏntikós mûs* --> _pontic mouse_, which either desribed a kind of weasel, native to the Pontic reɡion in Anatolia (southern Black Sea shore), or the rodents that infested ships (from *«πόντος» póntŏs* (masc.) = _epic (poetic) name of sea_ (possibly from PIE *pont-éh₁-s-/*pnt-h₁- _bridge, passage_ with cognates the Skt. पन्था (panthā), _path_, Lat. pons)).

Mole: *«Τυφλοπόντικας»* [ti.flɔˈpɔn.di.kas] (masc.), a late Byz. Gr. compound, which lit. means _blind-mouse_, formed by joining together the adj. *«τυφλός»* [tiˈflɔs] --> _blind, blocked, clogged_ < Classical adj. *«τυφλός» tŭpʰlós*--> _blind, dark, blocked, clogged, dim, obscure_ (PIE *dʰeubʰ- _foggy_, cf Proto-Germanic *dumbaz > Ger. dumm, Eng. dumb, Dt dom) + masc. *«πόντικας»* [ˈpɔn.di.kas].

***Classical 3rd declension masc. noun *«μῦς/μυός» mûs* (nom. sing.)/*mŭós* (gen. sing.) --> _mouse_ (PIE *muHs- _mouse_ old IE name of the animal retained in many IE languages: Skt. मूषक (mūs̩aka), Lat. mūs, Arm. մուկ (muk), etc.).


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## symposium

Italian
rat: ratto/ regional: pantegana
mouse: topo
mole: talpa
N.B. in Spanish "topo" is "talpa", i.e. "mole".


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## Sowka

German:

rat: die *Ratte*
mouse: die *Maus*
mole: der *Maul**wurf* ("the one who throws something with their mouth" )


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

FR:
mouse - souris (feminin)
rat- rat (masculin)
mole - taupe (feminin)


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## Agró

*Spanish*
Rat: rata
Mouse: ratón
Mole: topo

*Catalan*
Rat: rata
Mouse: ratolí
Mole: talp, talpa, talpó


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## AndrasBP

Hungarian:

rat: *patkány */ˈpɒtkaːɲ/ - borrowed from regional Italian _pantegana_ via Slovene or Croatian, ultimately from Greek _pontikos_.
mouse: *egér */ˈɛgeːr/ - an old word of Finno-Ugric origin
mole: *vakond */ˈvɒkond/ - derived from the adjective 'vak' (=blind).

.


symposium said:


> Italian
> rat: ratto/ regional: pantegana


Do you know which dialect uses 'pantegana'? Somewhere north, right?


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## Penyafort

ThomasK said:


> but I know that in some languages the mole is a blind mouse



In Iberia, the _blind mouse_ is the bat (Galician-Portuguese: _morcego_, Spanish: _murciélago_, Aragonese: _murziacalo _or _moriziego_, Western Catalan: _muricec_).



Agró said:


> *Catalan*
> Rat: rata
> Mouse: ratolí
> Mole: talp, talpa, *talpó*



The _talpó _is not really a mole, but a *vole*.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

I'm not sure, but I'd suspect that at least for Italian talpa is straight from Latin where the meaning of mole was kept. But topo for mouse, I would say is a french loanword which is also from talpa, where semantic shift happened. Also of note is that French word for mole taupe entered English where now taupe denotes a certain molelike colour. I've also seen that German dialects use Schermaus for mole.


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## ThomasK

What a response! Thanks! _(Just a hint if you could put t*he key words* in your language i*n bold*, it would be great as it helps to see the essence quickly)_


Penyafort said:


> In Iberia, the _blind mouse_ is the bat (Galician-Portuguese: _morcego_, Spanish: _murciélago_, Aragonese: _murziacalo _or _moriziego_, Western Catalan: _muricec_).


 Thanks a lot for this addition. We consider it a mouse too, a _*vleermuis, *_a winged mouse or... _(See #1, where I added a complete translation)_

Could the other contributors add the _*bat *_translation as well in this thread? Thanks a lot!


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Penyafort said:


> In Iberia, the _blind mouse_ is the bat (Galician-Portuguese: _morcego_, Spanish: _murciélago_, Aragonese: _murziacalo _or _moriziego_, Western Catalan: _muricec_).



In French, it's a "bald mouse" (_chauve-souris_)!


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## ThomasK

It is always intriguing to see links you would not think of from your own linguistic/mother tongue perspective: that a mouse is only a small rat, or that the mole is some kind of mouse, etc.

Jut by the way... There may be a very special way in which those three or four have something in common: they are shunned by people, sometimes even tried for their '"crimes".  I suppose all those animals were used in pejorative expressions.


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## alfaalfa

Ciao,


AndrasBP said:


> Do you know which dialect uses 'pantegana'? Somewhere north, right?


Yes, north.
Somewhere in the central Italy there's *pontecana/pentecana*.
In almost the south Italy the rat is the *zoccola  *(please note  _zoccola  _means  bitch too).


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> ...
> Could the other contributors add the _*bat *_translation as well in this thread? Thanks a lot!


Bat is *«νυχτερίδα»* [ni.xteˈɾi.ða] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension feminine noun *«νυκτερίς/νυκτερίδος» nŭktĕrís* (nom. sing.)/*nŭktĕrídŏs* (gen. sing.) --> lit. _nightly-animal/creature_ < Classical adjective *«νύκτερος» núkterŏs* --> _nightly_, from the oblique *«νυκτ-» nukt-* of the Classical name for night, the 3rd declension feminine noun *«νύξ/νυκτός» núks* (nom. sing.)/*nŭktós* (gen. sing.), from PIE *nekʷt-/*nokʷt-/*negʷʰ- _night, to become dark_, old inherited IE word present in many IE languages: Skt. निशा (niśā), Lat. nox, Proto-Germanic *naht, Proto-Slavic *noťь, etc. 
«_Νυκ_-τερίς» > «_νυχ_-τερίδα» with dissimilation.


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## AndrasBP

Hungarian:

bat: *denevér */'dɛnɛve:r/ - an old Hungarian word of unknown origin


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## symposium

Italian
*bat: *pipistrello, from Latin "vespertilio" (vesper=evening), it doesn't really remind one of anything, it's just a name.


dihydrogen monoxide said:


> But topo for mouse, I would say is a french loanword which is also from talpa, where semantic shift happened


Italian dictionaries say "topo" comes from central Italian words for "talpa". Another word for *mouse* but less common is "sorcio", cognate of French "souris" etc.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

In Geman, it's Fledermaus (flying mouse/'flittermouse'). (I don't speak German, I just know that from the title of an opera.)


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## Circunflejo

ThomasK said:


> So feel free to add any other mouse-y, rat-y animals!


In Spanish, the shrew is called *musaraña. *Etymologically, musaraña comes from Latin mus araneus (the mouse of the spider).



Penyafort said:


> In Iberia, the _blind mouse_ is the bat (Galician-Portuguese: _morcego_, Spanish: _murciélago_, Aragonese: _murziacalo _or _moriziego_, Western Catalan: _muricec_).


Lo* Rat Penat* (literally the rat with wings) in Valencian from Valencia.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Circunflejo said:


> In Spanish, the shrew is called *musaraña. *Etymologically, musaraña comes from Latin mus araneus (the mouse of the spider).



In French "shrew" is "musaraigne" (in this context).


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## Circunflejo

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> In French "shrew" is "musaraigne" (in this context).


Same Latin origin.


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## ThomasK

Very special. Had to look it up, had never heard of either *musaraigne *or _*shrew*_. But we call it simply a _*spitsmuis*_, a spire/peak mouse, a _spits_ being the peak of a mountain, [the top of] a spire, ...,  and as adjective pointed. So somehow, in your languages, the resemblance is recognized in the name, but I suppose not as clearly as with us, where a _spitsmuis _is just some kind of _muis... _


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

So, how many species will this thread wind up including?  For instance if I am  not mistaken, there's a critter called a "naked mole-rat"...

Edit: I've just looked it up in Wikipedia, according to which its Latin name is _Heterocephalus glaber_, and it's "also known as the *sand puppy*".


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## apmoy70

Circunflejo said:


> In Spanish, the shrew is called *musaraña. *Etymologically, musaraña comes from Latin mus araneus (the mouse of the spider).
> ...


In Greek, shrew is *«μυγαλή»* [mi.ɣaˈli] (fem.) < Classical fem. noun *«μυγαλῆ» mŭgălê* --> lit. _mouse-weasel_, a compound = *«μῦς» mûs* (see my earlier post for etymology) + Classical fem. noun *«γαλέη/γαλῆ» găléē* (uncontracted)/*gălê* (contracted) --> _weasel, (later) cat_ (PIE *gl̥Hi-/*gl̥h₁eu̯s- _mouse, dormouse, weasel_ cf Skt. गिरि (girí), _mouse_, Lat. glīs, _dormouse_). 

Btw, in Ancient Greek, the mole was *«ἀσπάλαξ» ăspắlaks* (masc. nom. sing.), *«ἀσπάλακος» ăspắlakŏs* (masc. gen. sing.), which gives the scientific MoGr name for the critter, *«ασπάλακας»* [aˈspa.la.kas] (masc.), of unknown etymology, possibly a substrate word.


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## ThomasK

@ain'ttranslationfun? I think we have stuck to the topic: all these words include one of the three basic words. So no real digressions, in my view.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

ThomasK said:


> @ain'ttranslationfun? I think we have stuck to the topic: all these words include one of the three basic words. So no real digressions, in my view.


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## Agró

Penyafort said:


> The _talpó _is not really a mole, but a *vole*.


The DCVB's definition confused me:
*TALP *(dial. _taup_). _m._
Mamífer insectívor de l'espècie _Talpa europaea, _semblant a una rata però amb la coa molt curta, pèl fi i abundant de color negrós, ulls molt petits i gairebé ocults sota la pell, i les potes de davant fortes i ben disposades per a gratar la terra, en la qual obre galeries d'on surt poques vegades (pir-or., or., occ., val.); cast. _topo. _Aies lo talp menys dels hulls viu e mit-ho en una bella olla, MS Klag. segle XIV, 13. La cendra del talp cremat en bela ola noua, Tres. Pobr. 19. Mona, gineta, | talp, oreneta, Spill 7709. Com taups furgant ressurten del fons a quatre grapes, Atlàntida ix. Entaforant-se com un talp, s'arriba a la cambra més gran, Rusiñol Illa 207.
    Fon.: táɫp (Alacant, Alcoi); táwp (Conflent, Empordà, Ripollès, Berguedà, Garrotxa, Pla de Bages, Plana de Vic, Maresme, Segarra, Penedès, Urgell, Priorat); táw (Ll., Gandesa, Tortosa, Morella).
* Sinòn.: *_*talpa, talpó.*_
    Etim.: masculinització de _talpa._


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## Awwal12

Russian:
rat - крыса (krýsa)
mouse - мышь (mysh)
mole - крот (krot)
bat - летучая мышь (letúchaya mysh, lit. "flying mouse"), also нетопырь (netopýr'/nétopyr'); the latter is also a biological term for members of the  Pipistrellus genus.


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## ThomasK

So I guess there is only one lexical link, i.e., between the names for mouse and bat.


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## brut2001

Piedmontese -Piemonteis,  Gallo-Italian language, north west Italy
rat - rat
mouse - ratoìn
mole - tarpon
bat - rata volòira (lit. flying rat)


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## ThomasK

Anyone who can offer some rationale for why bats are mostly considered mice, but here rats? Is that due to the fact that rats and mice are considered as part of any family? -- Or should I not be looking for rationales in this kind of lexical areas? 

Just a reference to some site may do (about the background of the "naming" process [onomasiology...])...


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## symposium

Venetian
*rat: *pantegana
*mouse:* sorxe
*bat: *barbastrìo


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## ThomasK

But are there no moles in Venice? ;-)


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> So I guess there is only one lexical link, i.e., between the names for mouse and bat.


Hypothetically крыса may be a remote cognate to крот, but it's very speculative.


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## momai

Arabic:
rat:  جرذ jurath (th as this)
mouse: فأر fa'r
mole: خِلد khild
bat: خفّاش khuffaash -> khafash is poor eyesight, another word for bat is waTaaT وطواط and batman is called al-rajulu al-waTaaT الرجل الوطواط


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## Red Arrow

ThomasK said:


> Anyone who can offer some rationale for why bats are mostly considered mice, but here rats? Is that due to the fact that rats and mice are considered as part of any family? -- Or should I not be looking for rationales in this kind of lexical areas?
> 
> Just a reference to some site may do (about the background of the "naming" process [onomasiology...])...


Bats are not even rodents so there is no logic to it. Mice and rats are more related to humans and rabbits than to bats.


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## Awwal12

Red Arrow said:


> Bats are not even rodents so there is no logic to it.


From the perspective of popular knowledge the true philogeny is absolutely irrelevant. Bats are small mammals with very short greyish hair and big round ears, which is sufficient to percieve them as some sort of mice or rats.


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## hui

Finnish:

rat: *rotta*
mouse: *hiiri*
mole: *kontiainen *( < *kontata* [or obsolete *kontia*], to crawl) (colloquially *maamyyrä*, lit. "ground-vole" or "dirt-vole")
bat: *lepakko *( < *lepattaa*, to flap*)*


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## Penyafort

Circunflejo said:


> Lo* Rat Penat* (literally the rat with wings) in Valencian from Valencia.



I said "Western Catalan" for the sake of brevity, but _muricec _is probably only used dialectally in the North-Western variety, mainly in Aragon. Clearly the most used term in all of Catalan is *ratpenat* or _*ratapinyada*_, both meaning _winged rat _indeed, similar to what ThomasK said they say in Dutch, by the way.



Agró said:


> The DCVB's definition confused me:
> *TALP *(dial. _taup_). _m._
> * Sinòn.: *_*talpa, talpó.*_



I see. That is weird, because then in the DCVB definition for _talpó_, they clearly say it's the Pitymys ibericus, an old scientific name for the Microtus duodecimcostatus, that is, the* common vole* for us Mediterraneans. The standard Valencian dictionary [DNV] also defines _talpó _as the vole.


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## MattiasNYC

rat: *råtta*
mouse: *mus*
mole: *mullvad*
bat: *fladdermus*

Note: "(Att) _Fladdra_" is a verb that translates roughly to "(to) _Flap_" in English. So the Swedish *"fladdermus"* is basically saying _*'flapping-mouse'*_


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## Red Arrow

Awwal12 said:


> From the perspective of popular knowledge the true philogeny is absolutely irrelevant. Bats are small mammals with very short greyish hair and big round ears, which is sufficient to percieve them as some sort of mice or rats.


Yes, I know, but there is no reason to wonder why it is called a winged rat in one language and a winged mouse in another.


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> _muricec _is probably only used dialectally in the North-Western variety, mainly in Aragon.


Benasqués?


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## Dymn

I'll add *Portuguese *if no one shows up:

rat: _*rato* (Rattus rattus) _or _*ratazana *(Rattus norvegicus)_
mouse (_Mus musculus_): _*rato*,_ _*camundongo *_(Brazil)
mole: _*toupeira*_
bat: _*morcego *_"blind bat" (#8)



Circunflejo said:


> Lo* Rat Penat* (literally the rat with wings) in Valencian from Valencia.





Penyafort said:


> Clearly the most used term in all of Catalan is *ratpenat* or _*ratapinyada*_


Actually in Valencia the most common term is _*ratapenada*_.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Slovene:

rat: podgana
mouse: miš
mole: krt
bat: netopir

BCS

rat: štakor
mouse: miš
mole: krtica (I've managed to find a case of krt, although it's rarely used, because krtica implies that mole is a female)
bat: šišmiš


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## Circunflejo

Another one, in Spanish, would be the *Rata almizclera *(literally, muskrat and that its name in English). Despite being called rata, it doesn't belong to the generus Rattus but to the generus Ondatra.



ThomasK said:


> Very special. Had to look it up, had never heard of either *musaraigne *or _*shrew*_.


 It's funny because many native Spanish speakers won't know either what sort of animal is a _musaraña _but they'll know the name due to the well-known expressions _pensar en las musarañas_ and_ mirar a las musarañas_.


Dymn said:


> Actually in Valencia the most common term is _*ratapenada*_.


If you mean in the city of Valencia, as I meant, that would be a surprise for me but, of course, totally possible because I'm not too familiar with Valencian.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Circunflejo said:


> Another one, in Spanish, would be the *Rata almizclera *(literally, muskrat and that its name in English). Despite being called rata, it doesn't belong to the generus Rattus but to the generus Ondatra.



A migrant (but a pertinent one) from the " Palintropes and alternative definitions " thread in Culture Café:

*mousekraut *Dish made from _Mus musculus _and fermented cabbage.


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## Dymn

Circunflejo said:


> If you mean in the city of Valencia, as I meant, that would be a surprise for me but, of course, totally possible because I'm not too familiar with Valencian.


I meant the region in general, I asked people from there and they all said _ratapenada_ (_ratapenà)_, and the dialectal map I've looked up says this is the usual name in the whole territory, including Valencia city. That doesn't mean _ratpenat_ cannot be used, since it's probably considered the most standard form in both Catalonia and the Valencian Country.


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> That doesn't mean _ratpenat_ cannot be used


I thought it was the standard term there due to the legend of Lo Rat Penat (you can look for it online if you aren't familiar with it) and because it's the term that I always heard when talking about the bat in the coat of arms of the main soccer team of the city. However, as I said, I'm not too familiar with Valencian.


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## ThomasK

Red Arrow said:


> Bats are not even rodents so there is no logic to it. Mice and rats are more related to humans and rabbits than to bats.


 I'd prefer to say that that logic does not work. People do not view animals from a biological viewpoint only. There are other ways of categorizing them I think, such as their appearance or perception. Certain common traits lead people to believe that both are related. 

_(Just like a dolphin and shark: they both seem like fish, whereas a dolphin is a mammal. Do not know where popular perception has left its traces iin languages where both animals are common.)_


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## ThomasK

symposium said:


> Italian
> *bat: *pipistrello, from Latin "vespertilio" (vesper=evening), it doesn't really remind one of anything, it's just a name.


 That is often the case: words contain another word, are based on the other word even, but we do not realize that anymore. Only once in a while, while thinking of etymology or simply for no reason, we are reminded of that. Etymology may refer to "the true" (etymon) but we all know that that is not really the case. Sometimes etymology does reveal something. In this case I am not using etymology to prove anything. Just to see where popular opinion seemed to perceive a link between some of the four as,their names seem to betray.


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## Red Arrow

ThomasK said:


> I'd prefer to say that that logic does not work. People do not view animals from a biological viewpoint only. There are other ways of categorizing them I think, such as their appearance or perception. Certain common traits lead people to believe that both are related.
> 
> _(Just like a dolphin and shark: they both seem like fish, whereas a dolphin is a mammal. Do not know where popular perception has left its traces iin languages where both animals are common.)_


I know, but you were wondering why a bat is a winged mouse in one language and a winged rat in another. There is not logic behind it.

You could argue that the word "fish" got hijacked by science. The original word just meant "animals living in water", think of inkfish, Dutch walvis etc.


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## ThomasK

Not logic: what's in a word? There is some reason for that, I think, but that reason is not founded on reason, for sure. ONe reason could be perception, and as we know, perception is different from seeing...


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## Penyafort

Circunflejo said:


> Benasqués?



I don't consider Benasqués to be Catalan, but an extreme variety of Eastern Aragonese. 

I was referring to other towns in the Catalan-speaking Aragon area, as well as some towns in Catalonia north of Lleida.


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> I don't consider Benasqués to be Catalan, but an extreme variety of Eastern Aragonese.


I don't consider it to be neither Catalan nor Aragonese but something in-between.


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## Włoskipolak 72

Polish 

rat = szczur  [ʃʧ̑ur] 
mouse = mysz   [mɨʃ]  , myszka  [ˈmɨʃka]   
mole = kret 
bat = nietoperz  [ɲɛˈtɔpɛʃ]


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## ThomasK

I happened to notice that the baseball bat is translated the same way as the "'flying mouse" in Polish, at least if Google provides good information. Had not expected that. @Włoskipolak:  can you analyse the POlish word as _nieto + per_z? 

Thought _bat1 _and _bat2 _were homonyms, not the same word... _Bat2 _(flying mouse) is derived from something like bakke, etymonline.com tells me, but oh, that might refer back to striking as well. Extra info: a bat was also referred to as a  _rattle-mouse_,  late 16, or even _Flitter-mouse_ (1540s), which is occasionally used in English. But as a *hreremus *in Old English, it was a shaking mouse, literally...


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## AndrasBP

Lithuanian:

rat - *žiurkė *(borrowed from Polish)
mouse - *pelė *(from an old IE root  meaning 'grey')
mole - *kurmis *(probably a doublet of Lith. _kirmis _(worm), related to Sanskrit _krmi _(worm)
bat - *šikšnosparnis *(from šikšna = leather + sparnas = wing)


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## ThomasK

Si no link at all, I guess - except maybe mole and worm... ;-)


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## Włoskipolak 72

ThomasK said:


> I happened to notice that the baseball bat is translated the same way as the "'flying mouse" in Polish, at least if Google provides good information. Had not expected that. @Włoskipolak:  can you analyse the POlish word as _nieto + per_z?
> 
> Thought _bat1 _and _bat2 _were homonyms, not the same word... _Bat2 _(flying mouse) is derived from something like bakke, etymonline.com tells me, but oh, that might refer back to striking as well. Extra info: a bat was also referred to as a  _rattle-mouse_,  late 16, or even _Flitter-mouse_ (1540s), which is occasionally used in English. But as a *hreremus *in Old English, it was a shaking mouse, literally...




etymologia:
From prasłowiański . ( Proto-Slavic)**netopyrjь*
praindoeuropejski. ( Proto-Indo-European)  *nekʷto-peryo → nocny lotnik ( night flier )

*Nietoperz* in different Slavic ( Slavonic ) languages   : Czech -*netopýr *, Croatian -*netopir* , Slovak - *netopier *, Slovenian - *netopir *

It is interesting that in Russian -   *летучая мышь* ( flying mouse )
Than in Macedonian -  *лилјак*  , and it seems the same in Romanian -   *liliac , * borrowing from Turkish*  leylak .*


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## Włoskipolak 72

alfaalfa said:


> Ciao,
> 
> Yes, north.
> Somewhere in the central Italy there's *pontecana/pentecana*.
> In almost the south Italy the rat is the *zoccola  *(please note  _zoccola  _means  bitch too).



I find it quite funny bat in Italian - *pipistréllo , vipistréllo *from Latin  *vespertìlio  *[dal lat. vespertilio (-onis), der. di  from *vesper* «sera» evening ], flying at night .
But in Sicily they say - *taddarita* ?


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## ThomasK

@*Włoskipolak 72: * Great information, thanks!


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## Penyafort

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> I find it quite funny bat in Italian - *pipistréllo , vipistréllo *from Latin  *vespertìlio  *[dal lat. vespertilio (-onis), der. di  from *vesper* «sera» evening ], flying at night .



A nice one. It can also be found in Iberia in the Asturian _*esperteyu*_. In Spanish it exists as _*vespertilio*_, a rare learned word.


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## Kaoss

Red Arrow said:


> I know, but you were wondering why a bat is a winged mouse in one language and a winged rat in another. There is not logic behind it.


Both are similar animal, in some lenguages they have similar names (rata, ratón in Spanish).


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## Linnets

alfaalfa said:


> Somewhere in the central Italy there's *pontecana/pentecana*.


Where?



symposium said:


> Italian
> *bat: *pipistrello, from Latin "vespertilio" (vesper=evening), it doesn't really remind one of anything, it's just a name.


It means '(bird) flying in the evening.' 



ThomasK said:


> But are there no moles in Venice? ;-)


Well, in Venice probably not, but in Veneto region yes. 

Tuscan dialect:
Rat: _tarpa_, _tarpone_
Mouse: _topo_, _topolino_
Mole: _tarpa_
Bat: _pipistrello_
Apparently, Tuscan lacks a specific word for mole.


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## alfaalfa

Linnets said:


> Where


Marche


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## ThomasK

Pontecana: not blind dog (I heard about blind mouse in Greek)? 
Pipistrello? We say winged mouse, but you see a bird... ;-)
tarpa/ talpa: l and r interchangeable...


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## AndrasBP

ThomasK said:


> Pontecana: not blind dog (I heard about blind mouse in Greek)?


No, "pontecana" has nothing to do with dogs, see posts #2 and #7.


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## ThomasK

Please forgive me: February is long gone, and there have  been over 50 answers...


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## Linnets

ThomasK said:


> Pontecana


Actually it comes from Medieval/Modern Greek ποντικός 'Black Sea (mouse).'



ThomasK said:


> Pipistrello? We say winged mouse, but you see a bird... ;-)


Not me or modern Italians but Ancient Romans (and others) thought bats were "birds."



ThomasK said:


> tarpa/ talpa: l and r interchangeable...


In most Central Italian dialects original Latin /l/ merges with /r/.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Linnets said:


> Actually it comes from Medieval/Modern Greek ποντικός 'Black Sea (mouse).'
> 
> 
> Not me or modern Italians but Ancient Romans (and others) thought bats were "birds."
> 
> 
> In most Central Italian dialects original Latin /l/ merges with /r/.



So it's not lui è, but rui è. L no matter the position always becomes r.


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## Linnets

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> So it's not lui è, but rui è. L no matter the position always becomes r.


I should have written preconsonantal /r/, i.e. /VrC/: _tarpa_ (_talpa_), _cardo_ (_caldo_), _parma_ (_palma_)...


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## apmoy70

apmoy70 said:


> ...
> Btw, in Ancient Greek, the mole was *«ἀσπάλαξ» ăspắlaks* (masc. nom. sing.), *«ἀσπάλακος» ăspắlakŏs* (masc. gen. sing.), which gives the scientific MoGr name for the critter, *«ασπάλακας»* [aˈspa.la.kas] (masc.), of unknown etymology, possibly a substrate word.


Apologies for quoting myself, the most common name for _mole_ in Ancient Greek wasn't ἀσπάλαξ, but, *«ἴνδουρος» índourŏs* (masc.), of unknown etymoloɡy (althouɡh its strikinɡ similarity with Skt. उन्दुर (undura), _rat_, suɡɡests IE oriɡin).


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## Olaszinhok

Another word for _topo/topolino _(mouse) is_ sorcio_ in Italian _(_from Latin_ sorex - soricis), _although it may be perceived as regional or Roman by many Italian speakers. However, it is still pretty common in sayings and idioms.
sórcio in Vocabolario - Treccani


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## Penyafort

_Pontecana _made me think about the Catalan _pantigana_, although I can't think about any relationship other than the name, because here it is a great green bush-cricket (_cavalletta verde_ in Italian).

And it seems those who had seen that connection too were just as baffled.



> _*pantigana *Etim.: incerta. Per la seva forma, aquest mot es pot relacionar amb els vocables dialectals nord-italians pontigana i pantigana, que signifiquen ‘rata’ i que, segons F. Schürr (Zschr. R. Ph. xlvii, 511-512), vénen del llatí **ponticana, *derivat de pontĭcus (cf. els pontici mures de Plini); però pel significat, és difícil establir relació entre el mot català i els italians indicats._​


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## Welsh_Sion

*Cymraeg/Welsh*

rat - *llygoden fawr *('a large mouse'), *llygoden Ffrengig* ('a French mouse'), *llygoden ffyrnig* ('a fierce mouse')
mouse - *llygoden *(possibly from an old IE root meaning 'grey', like Lithuanian, see above. Also Celt roots. See GPC *llygod*)
mole -* twrch daear/daeardwrch *('earth hog/boar'), *gwadd *(Celtic)
bat - *ystlum, stlum, slum; ysglemyn, sglemyn*. Also: *ystlumyn y bacwn* = 'fliter-mouse' (GPC: *ystlum*).


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## ThomasK

How funny, those words: French, fierce and large - but indeed, when starting from mouse, we can say rats are liek that. 

After the hedgehog, now the earthhog!

But why would a bat be a filter-mouse?


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## Welsh_Sion

*flittermouse *(< 'to flit' vb. - to move swiftly and lightly)

NOUN

old-fashioned term for bat

AND

mole - *twrch* *daear* = 'earth hog'
badger - *mochyn daear* = 'earth pig'

Can you see the difference? TBH, I can't but obviously _talpidae_ are different from _melinae_!


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## Roxxxannne

Apologies for going off topic, but Welsh_Sion's twrch daear and mochyn daear remind me of the North American groundhog (aka whistlepig) _(Marmota monax_) and Afrikaans aardvark < erdvark _(Orycteropus afer_): examples of similar names for completely different species.


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