# Does "irony" necessarily imply humour?



## LV4-26

Hello friends,

I have a question about the words _irony_-_ironical_. Well, two questions actually.
_____
1. A cultural question.(but not fitting in the CD forum, I think).
Imagine the following scene. While left alone in the room for five seconds, child has just broken granny's vase and mummy is very angry.
Mummy : How did you manage to break that vase?
Child : It wasn't me, mum.
Mummy : Well, it must have been Santa Claus, then....

Is the above dialog possible in English? Could the mother say the sentence in blue and could the child (12 years old) *understand* it? Could he understand that the mother does not really believe it was Santa Claus?
Or would the mother be more likely to say something like _well, it can't have been Santa Claus_ instead.

It would be perfectly common in French (and neighbouring countries, I think)'s culture but a recent experience makes me doubt it is that common in anglophone countries.

2. A related linguistic question
Could the mother's line in blue be called* ironical*? Even though she is mad at the boy, not in the mood for fun and doesn't mean to make anybody laugh.
If it is not irony, then what would you call this figure of speech?

Any input appreciated
Jean-Michel


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## pepita78

LV4-26 said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> I have a question about the words _irony_-_ironical_. Well, two questions actually.
> _____
> 1. A cultural question.(but not fitting in the CD forum, I think).
> Imagine the following scene. While left alone in the room for five seconds, child has just broken granny's vase and mummy is very angry.
> Mummy : How did you manage to break that vase?
> Child : It wasn't me, mum.
> Mummy : Well, it must have been Santa Claus, then....
> 
> Is the above dialog possible in English? Could the mother say the sentence in blue and could the child (12 years old) *understand* it? Could he understand that the mother does not really believe it was Santa Claus?
> Or would the mother be more likely to say something like _well, it can't have been Santa Claus_ instead.
> 
> It would be perfectly common in French (and neighbouring countries, I think)'s culture but a recent experience makes me doubt it is that common in anglophone countries.
> 
> 2. A related linguistic question
> Could the mother's line in blue be called* ironical*? Even though she is mad at the boy, not in the mood for fun and doesn't mean to make anybody laugh.
> If it is not irony, then what would you call this figure of speech?
> 
> Any input appreciated
> Jean-Michel



I don't think "irony" implies necessarily humour. Alanis Morisette wrote a song about ironical things: "A black fly in your chardonnay", "To win the lottery and die the next day", ecc...and there is nothing to laugh about it. Well, at least I think so.
Wait for a native though...


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## James Brandon

If you check the definition in the Oxford Concise Dictionary, there are many meanings - including "tragic irony" about Greek tragedy, I believe. Some of those meanings do not particularly integrate the notion of humour.

Regular "irony" does intend to have a "humorous effect", though, but it cannot be confused with "humour" as such. In some cases, "irony" is based on an antiphrasis; it may be funny to the person using it and not to the victim of it... "Sarcasm" is the next step.


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## kertek

1. It's possible, and if delivered with a suitably ironic tone of voice, it would be understood. However, you'd be much more likely to hear the mother say "Well, who was it then? Santa Claus?" It's true that irony isn't used as much in English in this situation as it is in French.

2. Yes - irony is simply when you deliberately say something opposite to what you mean, for an intended effect. The effect can be humour, but also emphasis, or disbelief.



			
				pepita78 said:
			
		

> Alanis Morisette wrote a song about ironical things


Here Alanis was attempting, in her own special way, to document examples of another definition of irony: where there is an incongruity between what you would expect, and what actually occurs. Although there's been much debate as to whether any of the things she sings about are, in fact, ironic (as opposed to just bad luck or coincidence). Writing a song called Ironic and then getting the idea of irony wrong in every single verse would be, of course, perfectly ironic.


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## cuchuflete

Hi Jean-Michel,
I would call the statement in your example sarcasm, and it might be said just that way in AE.

Irony does not always imply humor.

regards,
cuchu


PD- Calling Dubya the 'peace president' would be ironic, but certainly not humorous.


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## LV4-26

Thank you all


kertek said:


> Here Alanis was attempting, in her own special way, to document examples of another definition of irony: where there is an incongruity between what you would expect, and what actually occurs.


 Thanks for mentioning that. Yes, I'm not concerned with the kind of meanings that are illustrated in expressions such as _ironically enough_, _the irony of it all _and the like. What I'm dealing with is "expressing a meaning directly contrary to that suggested by the words"



cuchuflete said:


> and it might be said just that way in AE.


Right then. I thought I'd put my finger on a cultural gap (and hurt myself ) but it appears I had not.


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## Kelly B

I agree that sarcasm is a better term for this particular example, but also that irony does not have to involve humor at all.

To me, this might be a better example of irony that is not the least bit funny:
Ironically, a reaction to the medication intended to save his life was what killed him.


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## James Brandon

There are cultural differences at work here to, as to whether irony and ironic jokes are humorous and funny or not... Irony and sarcasm are at the heart of British humour, which can be quite hard-hitting. Everyone understands such remarks in the UK and, generally, thinks that they can be funny. Most people would tend to find, I think, your example of the drug killing the patient as potentially funny (unless it happened to a next-of-kin or to one's beloved dog). But Americans, in my experience, don't "do" irony and, quite frankly, don't always understand it. When they come across it, they tend to take it literally and commiserate: "Oh, how terrible!" When the remark was completely flippant and not meant to be taken seriously (and perhaps a sarcastic lie...), this in turn is rather funny to the average British person. It becomes a private joke. Quite good against stress at times. Or so I felt when I was travelling around the USA and found that I could say the opposite of what I meant to an American in the most sarcastic of ways and they simply would take it literally.


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## LV4-26

Thanks for that interesting input, James Brandon.
According to what I've been reading so far, there may also be cultural differences *inside* a country. Especially one as huge as the US.


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## french4beth

James Brandon said:


> There are cultural differences at work here to, as to whether irony and ironic jokes are humorous and funny or not... Irony and sarcasm are at the heart of British humour, which can be quite hard-hitting.  Everyone understands such remarks in the UK and, generally, thinks that they can be funny. Most people would tend to find, I think, your example of the drug killing the patient as potentially funny (unless it happened to a next-of-kin or to one's beloved dog).  But Americans, in my experience, don't "do" irony and, quite frankly, don't always understand it. *Really? I can't imagine why you'd think that  *When they come across it, they tend to take it literally and commiserate: "Oh, how terrible!" When the remark was completely flippant and not meant to be taken seriously (and perhaps a sarcastic lie...) *One of my favorite tricks is tell an obnoxious, obviously naive person, "You know, the word gullible isn't in the dictionary"  *Or so I felt when I was travelling around the USA and found that I could say the opposite of what I meant to an American in the most sarcastic of ways and they simply would take it literally. *Maybe you just charmed them with your accent & they believed everything you said... perhaps they had visions of Masterpiece Theatre on their minds?  *


I don't know if I agree with your assessment of Americans & humor - the musical Spamalot was a huge success on Broadway, and there's been a huge revival of interest in Monty Python of late (do you think that Monty Python had instances of irony in their shows? 

I do agree, though, that irony does not necessarily imply humor.

Here are some definitions (from thefreedictionary.com):





> *1. **a. *The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.*b. *An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
> *c. *A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.
> 
> *2. **a. *Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs


The occurrences Alanis sang about were _unfortunate_, not necessarily ironic...


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## boonognog

James, I think I agree with you in general.  That is not to say that _all_ of us here are that way, of course.  I love the BBC shows we are fortunate enough to get on our PBS stations!  (I especially love that show with Judi Dench -- is it "As Time Goes By"?)

But to the point re: _irony_, as others have posted, not all irony is humorous.  But what is that famous quote -- _humor = tragedy + distance_...?


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## LV4-26

I may be wrong but I get the impression that irony or sarcasm being less common practice in (some parts of?) the USA than, say, England, they may not be immediately recognized as such. You're bound to identify more easily what you're expecting. 
Hm, I'm afraid this is turning into a *real* cultural thread.


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## Snowman75

Kelly B said:


> I agree that sarcasm is a better term for this particular example, but also that irony does not have to involve humor at all.
> 
> To me, this might be a better example of irony that is not the least bit funny:
> Ironically, a reaction to the medication intended to save his life was what killed him.


I see what you're going for here, but I still wouldn't call this ironic. How about this:

He had pioneered for years to get the new drug approved, amidst strong concerns for its safety. Ultimately he was successful and the drug saved thousands of lives. It was tragically ironic that in the end, when he fell ill and needed the drug himself, he became the first person to ever die from its side effects.

By the way, I consider irony and sarcasm to be completely different concepts. In my experience it's usually the people who don't "get" irony that tend to equate the two. This includes most Americans


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## padredeocho

You have to understand what makes something funny to many English-speaking people:  *surprise.*

*The gold-winning swimmer drowned in his bathtub.*
A sad thing, indeed, but because of the surprise, we twisted Americans would laugh about it.  

Comedians make us laugh by surprising us with the obvious:
Jerry Seinfeld talks about why McDonalds feels the need to post how many hamburgers it has sold on its signs.  He says, "*Is it so the cows will just come into the restaurants and surrender*?"

We laugh because we just hadn't thought about it that way before, so we were surprised.   Irony, is about surprise, and for that reason, will often get a laugh no matter how cruel it may be.


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## James Brandon

I would say 'sarcasm' is a potentially nasty and slightly aggressive form of 'irony'; there are many forms of 'humour', and 'irony' is a major component of many forms of 'humour' - but not all 'irony' is 'humour' as such, and many forms of 'humour' rely on other forms of expression (eg slapstick comedy is not 'irony'). 

As for Americans and America, and their understanding of 'humour', there is no doubt that American humour and humourists do exist, of course; also, there is no doubt that many (or some) Americans understand 'irony'. Culturally, America is not homogeneous, and yet, are there that many differences from one region or state to another? The answer would be subjective. No doubt, the humour of a New Yorker may be quite different from that of a Californian. The person's ethnic background would also, no doubt, play a part. If the country is too fragmented culturally, this may have a negative impact on humour by the way: there needs to be a cultural common ground for people to laugh at the same things...

To conclude (and I have gone on a bit...), my comments were based on my dealings with Americans over the past 25 years, including two 4-week trips across the US, 20 years apart. I would maintain that most ordinary Americans (which does not mean all Americans) do not 'do' or 'get' irony of the British (or Australian) kind. 

PS And Australians do irony and sarcasm as well as (or better than) Britons, that's for sure!


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## Outsider

I think I undersand where you're coming from, LV4-26. I, too, have often noticed that in English the word irony seems to usually refer to a type of paradoxical _situation_, whereas in my language it's mostly used as a synonym for "sarcastic _statement_".


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## french4beth

James Brandon said:


> I would say 'sarcasm' is a potentially nasty and slightly aggressive form of 'irony'; there are many forms of 'humour', and 'irony' is a major component of many forms of 'humour'...


I agree completely, James - in my family of origin, sarcasm was a daily means of expression. Ironically, even though the comments were supposedly funny, they were in fact biting, cruel, and vicious. After spending a weekend home from university with them, I would return to my apartment feeling as though I'd taken a beating (and I had, emotionally, any way...).

If I'm making a sarcastic statement, I keep my tone very gentle & playful to show that I am being sarcastic and _not_ mean-spirited. When on-line, I use smilies to emphasize my meaning. I've found that younger children don't understand sarcasm, so I cringe when I hear adults making snotty comments that the children just don't get (and don't deserve, either).


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## padredeocho

The world watches AMERICAN TV shows.  Sadly, sarcasm has become a very common tool for cheap laughs.  Even when it is quite vicious.  In the USA, when a tragedy strikes, the first thing we do is joke about,   When NASA has a rocket blow up, the jokes were out the next day.   You have no idea how many Princess Di jokes I have seen.  

Sarcasm and irony when properly used can be quite funny, I just think it is a bit overdone in the USA.  America's Funniest Home Videos is a show that largely focuses on people getting hit in the crotch, running into a window, etc.


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## James Brandon

That sarcasm is generally hurtful is, I think, a given; or else, it is not sarcasm but (gentle) irony... Sarcasm is aimed at a particular person and is very direct - it is veiled criticism, very often. Irony or 'regular' humour are aimed at a situation, as it affects millions of people. I think there is a difference, somehow.

To go back to Americans and American humour, it is totally true that many American shows are very funny and actually incorporate irony and/or sarcasm. Yet, in everyday life, in my - granted, limited - experience, most ordinary Americans do not expect irony, hence don't identify it when they see/hear it, hence don't realise that's what it is, hence don't find it funny. At best, they don't notice it at all; at worst, they notice it and take offence. It is as if Americans compartmentalized: if it is humour and fun, irony is OK; if it is a daily work/everyday life situation, irony is not OK - just say what you want and get on with it. In the UK, the boundaries are blurred and irony can be used with complete strangers, sometimes in fairly subtle ways, and no one is surprised, and everyone understands... 

I don't know if I have explained properly and generalizations are always a bit silly, inevitably (not that it has stopped me!). 

I will give an example of self-inflicted irony here in London: The driver, on a commuter train into London that is badly delayed but only stops at a few stations along the way (known as "a fast train"), says: "I am sorry to announce that this fast-ish train has been delayed." Everybody on the train laughed. Maybe that could happen in New York too. And he stressed the 'ish' in a deliberately sarcastic manner. It was excellent.


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## boonognog

Now I know why no one here 'gets' me.  I live in the wrong country!


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## LV4-26

french4beth said:


> I've found that younger children don't understand sarcasm, so I cringe when I hear adults making snotty comments that the children just don't get (and don't deserve, either).


True. I had that in mind when I said the child in my story was 12. A child too young would take the comment literally, whatever his culture. ("how can she believe it was Santa Claus? There's no fireplace in the room" ).


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## linguaphile

In my experience, sarcasm tends to be very, very individual and circumstancial, at least in the western U.S. If you have not known a person long enough, it is hard to pick up on sarcastic cues. For example, in the original example, I would definitely call the mother's line sarcasm rather than irony. The background situation would probably be that the child is a bit of a compulsive liar, etc, etc. 

I would also note that sarcasm can be considered rude in certain social settings, especially as it tends to poke fun at people. This may be why James Brandon has had problems using it on Americans. In general, I've found that unless you know someone well enough, it is a bit of a social no-no to start firing out sarcastic barbs. Irony, on the other hand, is a different matter.


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## padredeocho

FRENCH4BETH we are kindred spirits! By the way, in Spanish those are called almas gemelas (twin souls). I have three old brothers who are BRUTAL with sarcasm. 

*Example of vicious sarcasm*: 
Jack: Grease that girl's hips because she's a fire hazard. If a fire broke out, she'd block the door way, and we would all burn!
John: Yes, and make sure to throw a TWINKIE on the other side to make sure she squeezes out the door!

*Example of funny, kind sarcasm:*
Jack: I have a problem with my wife's cooking.
John: Why?
Jack: Well, it's so good that friends always want to eat at our house, and I can't ever get seconds. 

I teach high school kids, and sarcasm had led to many suicides, depression, etc. I think we could use our English skills in a much more polished way. I am guilty of this, too! 

I think the word SARCASM has sort of a nasty implication that goes along with it, which is *snottiness*, another useful word!


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## padredeocho

If sarcasm is used right, it can be quite refreshing.   I think the British do this well with UNDERSTATEMENT.

A Brit sees his house burning down, and says, "I suppose we won't need to run the furnace tonight."

I've seen some funny things like this on some British shows.


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## andym

Anybody who says that americans don't 'do' irony has obviously never read The Onion just to take one example.


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## Outsider

Or _The Daily Show_, one of the best humour shows I saw in recent times.


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## french4beth

Also, how do you explain the popularity of satirical news shows such as "The Daily Show" or particularly "The Colbert Report" (both on Comedy Central)?  Or of the now defunct "Politically Incorrect"?


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## padredeocho

Let me give you an example of sarcasm, and how careful English-speaking people need to be with it. 

In the US it is common to laugh when a person hits their head agaist a door. (I really have no idea why). It is common to hear the OLD TIRED joke of "*You gotta be smarter than the door*!" 

I work with mainly Mexicans here in Utah. From experience, not ONE of them thinks this phrase is funny at all. Yes, sarcasm is a cultural thing, and we must be very careful when we use English this way with anybody, especially foreigners, who are all about *personal dignity,* which so often sarcasm attacks. My kids are birthday clowns, and they have to make sure they don't even embarrass a Mexican child, because that alone can be seen as an attack against one's dignity. With "white" kids, the clowns can be sarcastic, etc, and the kids love it.

And with Hispanics, I assure you that YO MAMA jokes are NEVER funny.


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## .   1

In my opinion irony requires the establishment of an incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is.
Sarcasm is mocking or contemptuous or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult.

Irony need not be negative whereas sarcasm requires negativity.

.,,


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## Outsider

padredeocho said:


> In the US it is common to laugh when a person hits their head agaist a door. (I really have no idea why). It is common to hear the OLD TIRED joke of "*You gotta be smarter than the door*!"
> 
> I work with mainly Mexicans here in Utah. From experience, not ONE of them thinks this phrase is funny at all. Yes, sarcasm is a cultural thing, and we must be very careful when we use English this way with anybody, especially foreigners, who are all about *personal dignity,* [...]


How many times did you say the joke to each of them? Maybe it needs some time to grow on them.


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## .   1

padredeocho said:


> Let me give you an example of sarcasm, and how careful English-speaking people need to be with it.
> 
> In the US it is common to laugh when a person hits their head agaist a door. (I really have no idea why). It is common to hear the OLD TIRED joke of "*You gotta be smarter than the door*!"
> 
> I work with mainly Mexicans here in Utah. From experience, not ONE of them thinks this phrase is funny at all. Yes, sarcasm is a cultural thing, and we must be very careful when we use English this way with anybody, especially foreigners, who are all about *personal dignity,* which so often sarcasm attacks. My kids are birthday clowns, and they have to make sure they don't even embarrass a Mexican child, because that alone can be seen as an attack against one's dignity. With "white" kids, the clowns can be sarcastic, etc, and the kids love it.
> 
> And with Hispanics, I assure you that YO MAMA jokes are NEVER funny.


I am pretty big on personal dignity.
I've never heard "*You gotta be smarter than the door*!" and I would be extremely careful who I said that to at the point of their pain.  Not many people enjoy being told that they are not that bright when they have just done something obviously dumb.
I have never, never, never met a child who enjoyed being embarrassed especially in front of their friends and even more so at their birthday party.
Does anyone know even one YO MAMA joke that is funny.

.,,


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## nycphotography

James Brandon said:


> But Americans, in my experience, don't "do" irony and, quite frankly, don't always understand it. When they come across it, they tend to take it literally and commiserate: "Oh, how terrible!"


 
I'd be mildly offended, as an American, had I not sat through a screening of Fargo where 3/4 of the audience was 

1) appalled by the tragic events being played out and 

2) aghast at my rolling on the floor laughing at the all the subtle ironies.


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## James Brandon

I was talking about dealing with ordinary Americans (whoever that might be) in everyday situations (in shops, at a bus stop, etc.). 

I could give a million examples... Sometimes, in the US, it wasn't even the absence of awareness of irony; it was the absence of awareness of anything at all whatever. Eg The waitress in a fairly posh restaurant in San Francisco coming back 4 or 5 times to ask if we wanted wine, if we wanted the wine now, if we wanted a drink before the meal, if we wanted to taste it first, and should I open the bottle now, and will you have some then, and when you said 'one', did you mean a bottle each (I was with a cousin), or a glass each, and... 

I thought she should have performed in Fawlty Towers as a female version of Manuel - and she was blonde, white, Anglo, whatever. Language was not the problem.

But I am sure there is no one like this on this Forum!!!

PS Sometimes, I wondered how sophisticated Americans did not all apply for political asylum in, say, Canada, or the UK. But how do they survive out there?


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## Victoria32

pepita78 said:


> I don't think "irony" implies necessarily humour. Alanis Morisette wrote a song about ironical things: "A black fly in your chardonnay", "To win the lottery and die the next day", ecc...and there is nothing to laugh about it. Well, at least I think so.
> Wait for a native though...


As people have said, Alanis Morisette was wrong about what constitutes irony...


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## Bonjules

Hello,
I think I must agree with some things that have been said-
but I am not sure it's a case of Americans 'not getting' it -
rather maybe of not always knowing how to respond to it.
I frequently wondered why in obviously very funny shows,
like Seinfeld, -nobody watching it (in the US) actually laughed. 
I was frequently embarrsed and got kicked by my wife in movies since I was the only one laughing out loud when it was hilarious.
In the first case, the 'laugh track' might be partially responsible - or is it there in the 1st pl. bec. the producers know already that nobody will laugh?
An intersting corrollary might be that very few people wanted to discuss
serious matters either. Doing so would 'ruin a good time' which I got frequently accused of, or talking to me would 'bring one down' as folks would say. 
So I don't know if there is a commom answer - maybe Europeans having had a very difft. history are more sarcastic, less trusting to begin with,
but are also 'emtionally less afraid' to 'let loose'?
Am I wildly speculating here?


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## James Brandon

Bonjules,
It could be that "having a good time" excludes talking about exceedingly _intellectual_ topics that are deemed "difficult" and perhaps boring (a view often aired in England too, actually), and that "having a good time" also excludes brain-taxing humour, potentially awkward irony, and offensive sarcasm. In other words, "having a good time" should be having a good old _bland_ and lazy time...  Irony can be difficult to handle at the best of times.


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## french4beth

nycphotography said:


> I'd be mildly offended, as an American, had I not sat through a screening of Fargo where 3/4 of the audience was
> 
> 1) appalled by the tragic events being played out and
> 
> 2) aghast at my rolling on the floor laughing at the all the subtle ironies.


I feel your pain, nyc! (by the way - Fargo is one of my all-time favorite movies.)

I had the same experience when I saw the movie Brazil (directed & written by Terry Gilliam, of Monty Python fame) back in 1985 - my friend & I were laughing hysterically, and everyone else in the theater was horrified. I loved Robert De Niro as the renegade duct repairman, and particularly enjoyed Katherine Helmond's plastic surgery experiences.  A movie full of incredibly funny _irony_!

I used to laugh during Seinfeld, too. I also was able to see him during one of his few live performances, back in 1994 - my sides were aching by the end of the show (and yes, everyone there laughed hysterically, too). His material is the epitome of _ironic_ humor.  It's about nothing, but also about everything...


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## nycphotography

James Brandon said:


> PS Sometimes, I wondered how sophisticated Americans did not all apply for political asylum in, say, Canada, or the UK. But how do they survive out there?


 
Trust me, most have had the idea, but when we arrived at the airport only to encounter the McKenzies and the chavs, we turned right back around and came home.

There seems to be a nearly equal distribution of ignorance and sophistication spread pretty much universally around the globe.

We just fool ourselves into believing that city (or foreign or whatever your particular prejudices may be) intelligence is somehow more intelligent than rural (or local or whatever) intelligence.


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## James Brandon

Of course, I was exaggerating, somehow... A bad instance of nasty sarcasm probably! Still, I wouldn't say irony and playing on words (and double meanings of those) are _commonly_ found across the States and among _ordinary_ Americans, in _everyday_ situations. 

PS When I was in the States, I must add that I found people generally friendly, relaxed, chatty, welcoming, helpful, nice, and pleasant. And San Francisco is a remarkable place. There you go.


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## maxiogee

Irony can often just carry heavy sarcasm, and as such would not imply humour - or at best 'black humour'.


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## Westmercian

I remember saying to a German lady one horribly wet and rainy day: "*It's a lovely day, isn't it?"*    The look she gave me was enough to make me burst out laughing.  "What do you mean 'a lovely day?' It's pouring with rain!" she said in amazement.     It was a tad hard going trying to explain an aspect of strange British irony.


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## .   1

It's a bit of a Greek Tragedy that our own Ireney has not assisted us with with an Irenic definition .

.,,


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## ireney

Hmmmm I guess it is a cultural thing after all. I consider ironic all those statement who have an element of affected ignorance but do not intend to hurt anyone for in this case they fall into the category of sarcasm which I view as a verbal effort to cut/bite a piece out of the other person's "flesh" .

So, comments like 


padredeocho said:


> "I suppose we won't need to run the furnace tonight."


 are, for me, ironic and not sarcastic. Irony is a good thing if not always humorous (especially if it deserves to be called "tragic irony" ) while sarcasm is "bad", aims at hurting someone.

True, the way a sarcastic comment (as the "you need to stop huggin doors you know") can take part of the sting out of it but it's still sarcasm; it's just that friends are allowed to teaze each other and teazing is always aimed at "hurting" the other (or yourself in some cases or I would have never voiced my belief that my 3 months old niece has a better sense of direction that I do or stated that my appartment was such a mess a month ago that the cockroaches complained about the horrible  living conditions before moving out)


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## .   1

ireney said:


> or stated that my appartment was such a mess a month ago that the cockroaches complained about the horrible living conditions before moving out)


G'day Ireney
I am so glad that you have come in and with the first truely ironic comment that I have found here that was intentionally ironic in nature and construction.

.,,


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## ireney

G'day to you too sir, thank you for your compliment which I do not deserve and if you wonder why I am so nice all of a sudden it's because I still claim that this was self-sarcasm


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## Bonjules

Going back to political humor/irony/sarcasm one thing seems certain: Europeans, especially the British, are much more daring. A show like
'Spitting Image' would be hard to imagine anywhere else.
The question is, does it make any difference? They still voted 
for Blair recently, even though the man, well ,I dont know..
..he doesn't seem all that truthful....


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## padredeocho

In the 1970s, a game show contestant was to answer this true or false question: *This year is Mickey Mouse's 50th birthday*.

His answer: *Well for some he is Mickey Mouse, but to me Jimmy Carter is still the President of the United States*.

Now, that was sarcasm. Funny to some, infuriating to others. It all depended on the party one belonged to!


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## .   1

ireney said:


> G'day to you too sir, thank you for your compliment which I do not deserve and if you wonder why I am so nice all of a sudden it's because I still claim that this was self-sarcasm


I did not realise that I had indicated that you had not been nice prior to your irenic post  so I will have to reasure you that I do not think that you are any less worthy as a person than you were before I drew attention to your ironic talent .
To be slightly serious.
I do not think that you were being self sarcastic and I doubt if you could joke about living in filth if you actually lived in filth so I assumed that you live your life as you speak in your posts which seem pretty cool to me.
Therefore I was left with a humourous post about cockroaches telling you to you as they left your clean home that you lived below their standards. 
That sounded more ironic than sarcastic.  In my opinion sarcasm requires a victim and irony requires a dichotomous comparison.

.,,


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## maxiogee

padredeocho said:


> In the 1970s, a game show contestant was to answer this true or false question: *This year is Mickey Mouse's 50th birthday*.
> 
> His answer: *Well for some he is Mickey Mouse, but to me Jimmy Carter is still the President of the United States*.
> 
> Now, that was sarcasm. Funny to some, infuriating to others. It all depended on the party one belonged to!



This sounds apocryphal.
Wasn't Jimmy Carter born 4 years before Mickey Mouse made his appearance? Which year did this happen?


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## Bonjules

us asual, fery vunny, Noty.

But seriously, does anybody know if there is any hard
hitting irony/sarcasm on the French airwaves?
The Germans, I know, are very timid and bland, nothing like
in the 20's (no wonder here).


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## maxiogee

Bonjules said:


> us asual, fery vunny, Noty



You misinterpret me, Bonjules. 

I was referring to the fact that Jimmy carter was born in 1924, and Mickey Mouse was 'born' in 1928. Mickey's 50th Birthday was celebrated in 1978. Why would a contestant in that year make reference to Jimmy Carter being president in relation to a question about a 50th birthday - Carter was 52 when he was inaugurated as President. That's why I asked what year this alleged show was broadcast.


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