# さぐらせてもらう



## narutokage

What did they mean when using 懐さぐらせてもらうぜ in this?


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## Schokolade

narutokage said:


> 懐さぐらせてもらうぜ



The particle を is left out here. It means 懐(ふところ)*を*探(さぐ)らせてもらうぜ, "Let me check your pocket (to see if you have かけら)."


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## narutokage

I thought the subject now is the killer ? 





> I will kill you and make you search in your pockets ? (It doesn't make sense to me.)


 Or it has to be passive causative to make the sentence sensible.

or it might also skip the part [にわたし].

I'm not so sure.
Please give me more details about that.


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## Schokolade

ぶっ殺して懐をさぐる means "to kill you and check your pocket".
ぶっ殺して懐をさぐらせる is its causative form: "to let (someone) kill you and check your pocket."
ぶっ殺して懐をさぐらせてもらう, 「Causative + て + もらう」 is literally like "to receive letting (me) kill you and check~~", i.e. "I'll have you let me kill you and check~~", hence "Let me kill you/I'll kill you and check~~."

Some examples of Causative + て + もらう:
行かせてもらう I have you allow/let me (to) go -> I'll go. / Let me go.
見せてもらいます。 I have you let me see / I'll have you show me -> I'll have a look.
考えさせてもらいます。 I have you let me think -> Let me think about it.


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## ktdd

causative = 1) make someone do something. 2) let someone do something
here さぐらせる = let me search
もらう = I receive the favor (of being let to search you)

(cross-posted with Schokolade)


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## narutokage

Thank you everyone. your answers are really helpful.


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## narutokage

Schokolade said:


> ぶっ殺して懐をさぐる means "to kill you and check your pocket".
> ぶっ殺して懐をさぐらせる is its causative form: "to let (someone) kill you and check your pocket."
> ぶっ殺して懐をさぐらせてもらう, 「Causative + て + もらう」 is literally like "to receive letting (me) kill you and check~~", i.e. "I'll have you let me kill you and check~~", hence "Let me kill you/I'll kill you and check~~."
> 
> Some examples of Causative + て + もらう:
> 行かせてもらう I have you allow/let me (to) go -> I'll go. / Let me go.
> 見せてもらいます。 I have you let me see / I'll have you show me -> I'll have a look.
> 考えさせてもらいます。 I have you let me think -> Let me think about it.


Your answer is very detailed. I've noted that in my book. Thank you so much.


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## ktdd

Yeah, this use of causative can cause some confusion if you're not familiar with the pattern.
Sometimes it's used to simply show humbleness. For example:
当店は９月末日をもちまして閉店させていただきました。長い間のご利用ありがとうございました。
Basically it says "We decided to close up the store by the end of September" but it's phrased in a way that sounds like "Fortunately we are allowed to close up / go out of business" (quite ironic if you think about it) (いただきます is the humble form of もらう)


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## narutokage

ktdd said:


> Yeah, this use of causative can cause some confusion if you're not familiar with the pattern.
> Sometimes it's used to simply show humbleness. For example:
> 当店は９月末日をもちまして閉店させていただきました。長い間のご利用ありがとうございました。
> Basically it says "We decided to close up the store by the end of September" but it's phrased in a way that sounds like "Fortunately we are allowed to close up / go out of business" (quite ironic if you think about it) (いただきます is the humble form of もらう)


Yes you are right. Causative form took me quite a long time to be able to understand it right.


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## DaylightDelight

I think you could call this structure "double-causative" (not an official name).
Both させる and してもらう are causative, してもらう being the far more polite of them (as in "ask someone to").
So the logical construction of させてもらう is {{させる}てもらう}, {I'm asking you {to let me do something}}.


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## Flaminius

させる is primarily causative but it also has a permission-seeking function.  In this sense, さぐらせる is "to let someone search."  Attaching もらう determines this someone to be the speaker.  While it sounds more polite than a pure imperative, もらう in itself does not express politeness.


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## narutokage

I suppose  that Japanese use もらう to avoid using passive causative to simplify the conjugation because they mean almost the same but the もらう-one is much simpler to implement ?


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## narutokage

DaylightDelight said:


> I think you could call this structure "double-causative" (not an official name).
> Both させる and してもらう are causative, してもらう being the far more polite of them (as in "ask someone to").
> So the logical construction of させてもらう is {{させる}てもらう}, {I'm asking you {to let me do something}}.


That perception is quite hard to understand by a nonnative speaker like me. It is hard to perceived してもらう as causative marker. Is that ok if we consider it as a passivity marker ? I'm not sure...

Example:
1. someoneにsomethingを返す.
2. someoneがsomethingを返される.   *(normal passive)*
3. someoneがsomethingを返してもらう.　*(passive by もらう)*
3. someoneがsomeone*else*にsomethingを返させる.　*(normal causative)*

So as the example, the third-one is much closer to the second-one right ?


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## DaylightDelight

Okay, してもらう itself is only a passivity marker.  But when it is used against the second person, very mild sense of request appears:
（あなたは私の）話を聞け = You (will) listen to me  a direct, strong request.
（私はあなたに）話を聞いてもらう = I am (will be) listened by you  an indirect, modest request.

This is what I meant when I said してもらう is a form of causative.  You might as well forget it if it confuses you.  It's only my personal view .


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## narutokage

DaylightDelight said:


> Okay, してもらう itself is only a passivity marker.  But when it is used against the second person, very mild sense of request appears:
> （あなたは私の）話を聞け = You (will) listen to me  a direct, strong request.
> （私はあなたに）話を聞いてもらう = I am (will be) listened by you  an indirect, modest request.
> 
> This is what I meant when I said してもらう is a form of causative.  You might as well forget it if it confuses you.  It's only my personal view .


How about "Passivity marker with mild sense of request." It makes perfect sense to me. What you think ?


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## DaylightDelight

narutokage said:


> How about "Passivity marker with mild sense of request." It makes perfect sense to me. What you think ?


 Only when used against the second person.


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## frequency

narutokage said:


> How about "Passivity marker with mild sense of request." It makes perfect sense to me. What you think ?



We don't have such a marker at all. That is して＋もらう. して（する） is a normal verb and もらう is so, too. That's a combination.
See もらう 2. It says きてもらう. きて（くる）＋もらう.


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## Niolus

当店は９月末日をもちまして閉店させていただきました。長い間のご利用ありがとうございました。
Basically it says "We decided to close up the store by the end of September" but it's phrased in a way that sounds like "Fortunately we are allowed to close up / go out of business" (quite ironic if you think about it) (いただきます is the humble form of もらう) 

I don´t see the "fortunately" nuance in the sentence.


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## frequency

Niolus said:


> 当店は９月末日をもちまして閉店させていただきました。長い間のご利用ありがとうございました。
> I don´t see the "fortunately" nuance in the sentence.


Good. The thing that is said in this sentence is _wholly_ "unfortunately" because the shop is going to close. As you said, いただきます doesn't mean either of unfortunately or fortunately. And this is a combination, too. 閉店させて＋いただく。



ktdd said:


> 当店は９月末日をもちまして*閉店させていただきました。*長い間のご利用ありがとうございました。
> Basically it says "We decided to close up the store by the end of September" but it's phrased in a way that sounds like "Fortunately we are allowed to close up / go out of business" (quite ironic if you think about it) (いただきます is the humble form of もらう)


Kt, it can be "Thank you for letting us the shop close" a bit, too. (But you know, similar ones are okay.)


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## Flaminius

閉店させていただきました is "We closed up the store"; there is no element for "decide to."

"Fortunately"
I suspect there is a nuance that's lost in translation.  A verb suffixed with (さ)せていただく is not for something to happen out of good luck.  It is "someone, typically the listener, graciously lets one do something."  This construction is on the rise and often criticized when it comes across ingratiating or cowering.  Yes, this is the case where I personally prefer an alternative: 閉店いたしました。


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## narutokage

frequency said:


> We don't have such a marker at all. That is して＋もらう. して（する） is a normal verb and もらう is so, too. That's a combination.
> See もらう 2. It says きてもらう. きて（くる）＋もらう.


Of course, you don't because it is what I've invented.


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## ktdd

Flaminius said:


> 閉店させていただきました is "We closed up the store"; there is no element for "decide to."


Oops, obviously I made a blunder.
ご指摘いただきありがとうございます。

About the "fortunately" part:
My understanding is, in normal speech, the action/event associated with あげる・くれる・もらう is perceived as an favor. If it's unfavorable, i.e. if the speaker is adversely affected by the action, we use the passive construction instead, am I right? That "fortunately" is just me attempting to capture the elusive "favorable" sense of the verb いただく. (Now I realize "graciously" is a much better word.)
Of course a shop's closure is unfortunate. It's good for nobody. But then again there isn't really an "allowing" either. Whether the customers allow it or not, the shop is going to close. I just find this させていただきます construction sometimes quite ridiculous.


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## DaylightDelight

My understanding of 閉店させていただきます is like this: "although it may cause your (=customers') inconvenience, we would like you to let us close up our shop."  So, although there is no "allowing" in the real sense involved, this expression implies that (or request for "understanding" on the customers' part).


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## frequency

narutokage said:


> Of course, you don't because it is what I've invented.


きてくれる
きてもらう
きてあげる
(Thank you kt, lol.)

These くれる・もらう・あげる are called 補助動詞. You can add the verb （来る） to them, so they become a combination of two verbs. Don't call them markers because "marker" stands for another different thing.

If you say きてくれ, for example, this would be a bit easier. You say くれ, give it to me. Of what? 来る(こと). ～くれ・～くれる may be the usages coming from the verb 「くれる」.


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## narutokage

frequency said:


> きてくれる
> きてもらう
> きてあげる
> (Thank you kt, lol.)
> 
> These くれる・もらう・あげる are called 補助動詞. You can add the verb （来る） to them, so they become a combination of two verbs. Don't call them markers because "marker" stands for another different thing.
> 
> If you say きてくれ, for example, this would be a bit easier. You say くれ, give it to me. Of what? 来る(こと). ～くれ・～くれる may be the usages coming from the verb 「くれる」.


Yes, you are right.


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## ktdd

DaylightDelight said:


> My understanding of 閉店させていただきます is like this: "although it may cause your (=customers') inconvenience, we would like you to let us close up our shop."  So, although there is no "allowing" in the real sense involved, this expression implies that (or request for "understanding" on the customers' part).


Hmm, seeking understanding, that's a very good point. Thanks


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