# kigen, kibun



## Sulizhen

Hello,

I'd like to know if there is any difference between "kigen" and "kibun". I've seen them in a same pattern sentence: "kibun ga warui" and "kigen ga warui". According to the book I have, the first one means "I feel sick" and the second one "I'm in a bad mood". However, looking up the words in a bilingual dictionary, their respective translations are almost the same... Does that mean that they are "interchangeable"? Does it all depend on the context? Are they just slightly different? 

Thank you!


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## Flaminius

Ah, this is a tough question that only a learner can come up with and that puts natives at bay...

Let me try to outline the difference between 気分 (kibun) and 機嫌 (kigen) by saying that the former denotes the mood of the speaker whereas the latter that of someone else.

To contrast,
彼女は気分がいい。
She has a pleasing personality.  (That is, her character makes me or us feel good.) 
彼女は機嫌がいい。
She is in a good mood. (That is, she herself is feeling good.)

One can say, 「私は機嫌がいい」 in sense of "I am feeling good," but this comes not without an air of arrogance.  Presumably this results from the third-peson framework that 機嫌 puts the sentence in.  Speaking about oneself in the third person implies arrogance in other languages too.

But when affixed with ご, a politeness marker, both nouns can mean someone else's feeling or physical conditions.
E.g.
ご気分はいかがですか。
How are you feeling (physically)?
ご機嫌はいかがですか。
How are you feeling (mood)?

Another conspicuous difference that 機嫌 can be modified by only a limited set of expressions (such as ほろ酔い機嫌 [feeling tipsy]) whereas 気分 can take a wide range of adjectives.
OK 幸せな気分 (happy feeling)
* 幸せな機嫌
OK 空虚な気分 (empty feeling)
* 空虚な機嫌

I don't feel I have exhausted the points to be made here.  Let's wait for other posters to chime in.

Flaminius

By the way, welcome back to WR forums, Sulizhen!


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## almostfreebird

I'm just going to offer a few examples.

A doctor: How're you feeling?
A patient: I'm feeling very well this morning.=Késa wa tottémo kìbun ga ii des.
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(talking about Jenny's pet)
Neil: What's the matter with the cat?=Sono neko dòu shitano?
Jenny: Nothing. He just seems in a bad mood.=Betsuni. Tàda kigén ga warui mitai.
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(talking about their teacher)
Billy: She lied to my dad because she wanted to defend herself.
Jim: She is so nasty.=Aitsu(offensive) wa honto ni kìbun warui yatsu(offensive) da na.
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(in a party)
Billy: Give me another drink.=Mou ippai kudasai(polite)/kure(rude).
Jim: You'd better not drink anymore. You gonna be sick tomorrow morning.=Mou yameta hou ga iiyo. Ashita no asa kìbun ga waruku naru yo.


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## Sulizhen

Thanks both for your kind replies and examples! I think I get the idea that is behind "kigen" and "kibun"-thing, but it's difficult!! >_< I guess that's due to the fact that my Japanese is still basic right now, so I need more "linguistic background" to understand it perfectly.

Again, thank you very much 

Flaminius, thank you too for your welcome. I'm afraid that I have now more free time to bother you with my doubts on Japanese...


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## Eso

I'm sorry, but this is going to be a little off-topic...

Does "kibun" and "kimochi" mean roughly the same thing? Some of the sentences seem like you could substitute "kimochi" for "kibun"

Jim: She is so nasty.=Aitsu(offensive) wa honto ni kìbun (*kimochi*) warui yatsu(offensive) da na.


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## almostfreebird

Hahahahaha 
Sorry, but that's going to be a very good joke. I'm going to explain later, I really have to go to bed now, or maybe somebody will post soon.


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## almostfreebird

When you say "kimochi (ga) ii/yoi" or "kibun (ga) ii/yoi", that is, a positive way meaning "feel good", they are interchangeable.
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"(watashi) (wa) kimochi (ga) warui (des)" is almost equal to "(watashi) (wa) kibun (ga) warui (des)", meaning "feel bad or sick". The former subtly suggests you feel like to vomit.
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When something or somebody is "kimochi (ga) warui, they are *creepy* or *bizarre* or *queer*, for example:
Billy: Did you see that horror movie?=ano horaah eiga mita?
Jimmy: Yeah, that zombie was soooo creepy!=mita mita, ano zombie wa honto ni kimochi warukatta!

So "Aitsu(offensive) wa honto ni *kimochi* warui yatsu(offensive) da na." means "That guy is really creepy" or "That chap is really bizarre". By the way Yatsu or Aitsu is not necessarily a offensive word.
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P.S. Words in brackets can be omitted or rather better omitted.


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## cheshire

"kibun warui yatsu da" 気分悪いやつだ　is short for "watashi tachi no kibun wo waruku saseru yatsu da" 私（私たち）の気分を悪くさせるやつだ. 

In the same manner, "kimochi warui yatsu da" 気持ち悪いやつだ is short for "watashi (watashitachi) no kimochi wo warukusaseru yatsu da" 私（私たち）の気持ちを悪くさせるやつだ.

Then, just compare the two nouns: "kibun" and "kimochi." 

kibun: one's mood, state of mind
kimochi: one's physical or physiological feelings


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## thesmallrider

Flaminius said:


> One can say, 「私は機嫌がいい」 in sense of "I am feeling good," but this comes not without an air of arrogance.  Presumably this results from the third-peson framework that 機嫌 puts the sentence in.  Speaking about oneself in the third person implies arrogance in other languages too.



Really ? I've heard many children speaking of themselves at the third person and I've always thought that it was okay in Japanese...


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## DaylightDelight

thesmallrider said:


> Really ? I've heard many children speaking of themselves at the third person and I've always thought that it was okay in Japanese...


What Flaminius actually meant, I believe, is not "to speak of oneself *using *the third person sentence", but "to speak of oneself* as if he/she is* the third person."
When those children speak of themselves using the third person sentence, they are still speaking from the first-person point of view. It's just a matter of vocabulary used in the sentence.  And yes, I guess it's kind of okay, just childish.
But when you say "私は機嫌がいい", the sentence itself is in the first person but it somehow sounds like "this person is feeling good," and this leads to the arrogant air Flaminius has mentioned.
I don't know whether we don't usually use 機嫌 for oneself because it sounds arrogant, or it sounds arrogant because we don't usually use 機嫌 for oneself.


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## Flaminius

thesmallrider said:


> Really ? I've heard many children speaking of themselves at the third person and I've always thought that it was okay in Japanese...


It's not okay as soon as you go to school.  Maybe it's condoned for the first one or two years, but older kids deride each other if someone calls themselves by their name or any derivations such as XXX-chan.

機嫌 is a word for describing someone else's mood, hence the third-person framework I wrote a few years ago.


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## thesmallrider

Ha Ha Ha ! I used to speak of myself using my first name anytime I wasn't sure weather to use "boku", "ore", or "watashi" ... I did that for months (or was it years?) and nobody ever told me, even my wife (I'm going to scold her about it ;-)) !
I guess I eventually stopped doing it just because no one else was doing so ...
Anyway, thank you for letting me know, I'll make sure my son doesn't get this bad habit !
(sorry for bringing up a post from 10 years ago !)


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