# Married/Engaged Questions



## RhoKappa

This is what my textbook says about the state of marriage.

_For a woman, the state of being married to someone is expressed with the instrumental, but the act of marrying someone is expressed with the accusative. Compare:_

_Она замужем за американцем (She is married to an American)._
_Она вышла замуж за американца (She married an American)._

Unfortunately, my textbook does not say anything else about the other variants. Here are my questions.

1. For a man, how is the state of being married expressed? For example: He is married to a Ukrainian.
2. For a man, how is the act of marrying someone expressed? For example: He married a Ukrainian.

What about the state of engagement (i.e., will be married in the future) for both a man and a woman? Thus:

3. For a man, how is the state of being engaged expressed? For example: He is engaged (i.e., will marry in the future) to a Ukrainian.
4. For a woman, how is the state of being engaged expressed? For example: She is engaged (i.e., will marry in the future) to an American.

Finally, how do you put all the above static expressions in the past perfect tense? By this, I mean that the person was married/engaged, but now no longer. Thus:

5. He was married to a Ukrainian (i.e., but no longer and is now divorced).
6. She was married to an American (i.e., but no longer and is now divorced).
7. He was engaged to a Ukrainian (i.e., but engagement broken).
8. She was engaged to an American (i.e., but engagement broken).


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## morzh

For a man it is "женат" / "женился" for state/act of marriage

1. For a man, how is the state of being married expressed? For example: He is married to a Ukrainian. - Он женат на украинке.
2. For a man, how is the act of marrying someone expressed? For example: He married a Ukrainian. - Он женился на украинке.


>>What about the state of engagement (i.e., will be married in the future) for both a man and a woman? 

In Russia after 1917 the culture lost the formal engagement, and so it is not really in use today.
However the word exists, and, perhaps, maybe (don't know that for a fact) is trying to come back together with the custom itself.

The word is "помолвка" / "помолвлен" for the act / state of engagement.

>He is engaged (i.e., will marry in the future) to a Ukrainian. - Он помолвлен с украинкой.
>>4. For a woman, how is the state of being engaged expressed? For  example: She is engaged (i.e., will marry in the future) to an American. - Она помолвлена с американцем.


5. He was married to a Ukrainian (i.e., but no longer and is now divorced). - Он был женат на украинке.
6. She was married to an American (i.e., but no longer and is now divorced). - Она была замужем за американцем.
7. He was engaged to a Ukrainian (i.e., but engagement broken). Он был помолвлен с (одной) украинкой.
8. She was engaged to an American (i.e., but engagement broken).  		- Она была помовлена с (одним) американцем.


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## RhoKappa

morzh said:


> In Russia after 1917 the culture lost the formal engagement, and so it is not really in use today.
> However the word exists, and, perhaps, maybe (don't know that for a fact) is trying to come back together with the custom itself.
> 
> The word is "помолвка" / "помолвлен" for the act / state of engagement.


Although the meaning would be clearly understood, is there a more common, colloquial way to say it in conversation?  Do people in everyday Russia use помолвлен/помолвка in everyday conversation?  If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed?


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## WordOrder

RhoKappa said:
			
		

> Do people in everyday Russia use помолвлен/помолвка in everyday conversation?



I never used this word and never heard it from someone. Nowdays this word is the indispensible part of television historical dramas like Jane Air and I'm very doubt that somebody use it to inform of a forthcoming marriage. (However, I don't consider this word obsolete or out of use. It doesn't grate my ears.)

In everyday speech we use _собира́ться жени́ться_ и _собира́ться вы́йти за́муж_.

_Он собирается жениться — He is going to getting married._

_Она собирается выйти замуж — She is going to getting married._

_Они собираются жениться — They are going to getting married._


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## Maroseika

RhoKappa said:


> Although the meaning would be clearly understood, is there a more common, colloquial way to say it in conversation?  Do people in everyday Russia use помолвлен/помолвка in everyday conversation?


Engagement is not spread in modern Russia too widely, except perhaps some religious people, I don't know.
Therefore I've never heard any colloquial word for помолвка. Actually even помолвка and обручние (betrothal) I only encountered in the books or movies. 



> If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed?


Она выходит замуж в следующую пятницу.
У меня свадьба в августе.
Мы расписываемся через месяц.


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## Natalisha

WordOrder said:


> Nowdays this word is the indispensible part of television historical dramas like Jane Air and I'm very doubt that somebody use it to inform of a forthcoming marriage.


Really?

Помолвка принца Уильяма


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## Maroseika

Natalisha said:


> Really?
> 
> Помолвка принца Уильяма



To a great extent this is exactly "a television historical drama" rather than a real event.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> To a great extent this is exactly "a television historical drama" rather than a real event.



No, Natalisha is right - when it is about foreigners (pronces or commoners) it is nowadays, contemporary usage.

"Помолвка" is extremely important in US culture. For example.


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## Slavianophil

RhoKappa said:


> Although the meaning would be clearly understood, is there a more common, colloquial way to say it in conversation? Do people in everyday Russia use помолвлен/помолвка in everyday conversation? If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed?


 
People very rarely use the word "помолвка" or "помолвлен" in everyday conversation for the simple reason that engagements are an unlikely subject for everyday conversations. For the same reason, there is no (at least not to my knowledge) common, colloquial way to say it. It is not the word that has become obsolete, but the phenomenon itself. However, if some people decide to have a formal engagement, they will use the word "помолвка" which will be easily understood by most Russian speakers.

But when people definitely decide to get married they have to submit an application to a registration office which is called ЗАГС (отдел записи актов гражданского состояния) in Russian. After that, a certain period would elapse before the couple gets officially married. (In my case it was two months or so). 

So, if a couple has submitted this application, they would say:

"Мы подали заявление в ЗАГС" или просто "Мы подали заявление".

This might be considered as a remote equivalent of being engaged. By the way, if you want to get married in church, normally you will have to get married in the registration office first and show the marriage certificate to the priest to prove that your matrimonial intentions are serious. Though, of course, if the priest in question knows the couple well, he can marry them before the registrar does.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> Engagement is not spread in modern Russia too widely, except perhaps some religious people, I don't know.
> Therefore I've never heard any colloquial word for помолвка. Actually even помолвка and обручние (betrothal) I only encountered in the books or movies.
> 
> 
> Она выходит замуж в следующую пятницу.
> У меня свадьба в августе.
> Мы расписываемся через месяц.



Unless people really observe the custom of engagement (помолвка) I would not even use it in Russian at all.

We are talking a cultural phenomenon.
It is not something you readily translate.

It either exists with some people, or it does not.

If people do not observe "помолвка", we should not be trying to still find an analog of "engagement" and use it in their situation.

Not in the way "они собираются пожениться" or similar.

Say, my wife and I were not ever engaged. We met, we liked each other, and then we got married. There was no official "I ask the hand of your daughter in marriage", no engagement rings, no nothing. So there was no engagement. Why would I then try to  find some expressions to describe the engagement when it did not exist?

My point is, trying to translate engagement / помолвка in teh cases when it is absent is the same as trying to translate "baptizing" for, say, Muslims or Jews, asking them "how do you call baptizing for your people?".  The answer would be "we do not baptize people. But if you want a word for it - here it is."


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> If people do not observe "помолвка", we should not be trying to still find an analog of "engagement" and use it in their situation. Not in the way "они собираются пожениться" or similar.


I answered the question: "If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed"? 
As you see, it has nothing to do with the engagement.



> Say, my wife and I were not ever engaged. We met, we liked each other, and then we got married. There was no official "I ask the hand of your daughter in marriage", no engagement rings, no nothing. So there was no engagement.


How about сделать предложение?


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## Natalisha

Maroseika said:


> To a great extent this is exactly "a television historical drama" rather than a real event.


I don't watch dramas but I like to look through the news. When the news is in Russian I come across this word very often. I agree with Morzh. It's just one of cultural differences between the countries. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of 'помолвок' in 100 years, too (in Britain, America, Italy, etc.).

My Italian friends have been 'помолвлены' for 4 years already. When I tell about them to my husband What Russian word should I use?


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## Natalisha

Maroseika said:


> I answered the question: "If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed"?
> As you see, it has nothing to do with the engagement.
> 
> 
> How about сделать предложение?


No, it's not the same. Сделать предложение is just to propose.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> How about сделать предложение?



This is "to propose".
He proposed to her - Он ей сделал предложение.
Has he proposed yet? - Он уже сделал (тебе) предложение?

Also, the man proposes. Not the woman. Whereas engagement is a mutual thing.

Absolutely not the same. Even though a part of the same ritual.


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## Maroseika

Natalisha said:


> No, it's not the same. Сделать предложение is just to propose.


Well, actually I meant that proposal was already accepted. Somehow I did not think it might be rejected. Such as:

- А Вася сделал мне предложение!
- Да ты что? Поздравляю! Когда свадьба?

Meaning it will result in the wedding without fail.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> Well, actually I meant that proposal was already accepted. Somehow I did not think it might be rejected. Such as:
> 
> - А Вася сделал мне предложение!
> - Да ты что? Поздравляю! Когда свадьба?
> 
> Meaning it will result in the wedding without fail.



Again, this is not the same.

Yes, proposal, once accepted, creates the engagement.
But then proposal is proposal, and engagement is engagement.
And while you can translate the first, it is hard to translate the second, simply for the reason of absence of the proper term in the modern Russian (read - post-Soviet) life.

To equate these two is the same as to equate bees and honey. Bees create honey, but bees are not honey. If eaten, they create stinging sensation on your tongue and in your stomach, instead of the expected sweet one.


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## Garbuz

In old days an engagement was announced publicly. I think it wasn't a coincidence. It meant duties, resposibilities and all that. It was a serious step. Today people don't say something like "Miss N has done me the honour of accepting my proposal of marriage". At least, I've never heard anybody say anything of the kind. Maybe that's why the Russian word has that literary flavour.


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## morzh

Garbuz said:


> In old days an engagement was announced publicly. I think it wasn't a coincidence. It meant duties, resposibilities and all that. It was a serious step. Today people don't say something like "Miss N has done me the honour of accepting my proposal of marriage". At least, I've never heard anybody say anything of the kind. Maybe that's why the Russian word has that literary flavour.




Substitute "Miss N" for "Маша" and I will agree.

Where people say "Miss N." it is still announced, not necessarily "Miss N", may be simply "Today Jill agreed to marry me", or "Today Jane and I decided to get married", or "Today Peggy-Sue has made me the happiest man on the face of the Earth", but it is still often announced.
As a rule it is followed by the groom presenting his fiancee with an engagement ring, typically (nowadays - thanks to DeBeers and Marilyn Monroe brainwashing most women into thinking it has to be so; it was not always like this) a diamond one, which has to be worth of some 3 to 4 month pay of the groom, and then the fiancee proudly showing it to the honorable assembly and, maybe, jumping a little too.


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## Garbuz

morzh said:


> As a rule it is followed by the groom presenting his fiancee with an engagement ring, typically (nowadays - thanks to DeBeers and Marilyn Monroe brainwashing most women into thinking it has to be so; it was not always like this) a diamond one, which has to be worth of some 3 to 4 month pay of the groom, and then the fiancee proudly showing it to the honorable assembly and, maybe, jumping a little too.


 

Most moving, most moving, I should say.


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## morzh

A man who wants THAT, can always have THAT. No woman will say no if you are willing to do it.


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## Rosett

Помолвка принца Уильяма - неудачный перевод для новостей. Слово "помолвка" годится для исторического романа.

Принц Уильям сделал предложение.


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## RhoKappa

Slavianophil said:


> People very rarely use the word "помолвка" or "помолвлен" in everyday conversation for the simple reason that engagements are an unlikely subject for everyday conversations. For the same reason, there is no (at least not to my knowledge) common, colloquial way to say it.


I find this very hard to believe, because it is a very common occurrence for people to be engaged to wed.  There is no Russian expression for that?  In America, we simply say "engaged" if a marriage will be certain in the future.  There must be a common Russian expression to express betrothal.


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## Slavianophil

RhoKappa said:


> I find this very hard to believe, because it is a very common occurrence for people to be engaged to wed. There is no Russian expression for that? In America, we simply say "engaged" if a marriage will be certain in the future. There must be a common Russian expression to express betrothal.


 
If such a common Russian expression exists, I don't know it. Of course, I am not the highest authority on the Russian language, but Russian is my mother tongue and I have lived all my life in Russia.

If a marriage will be certain in the future, people can describe the situation in a lot of ways (see above suggestions), but I don't know a single idiomatic or set expression with this meaning.

Perhaps, except for: Мы (они, вы) подали заявление - meaning we have submitted an application for marriage to the registry office. This is the closest equivalent to being engaged in modern Russian life.


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## Natalisha

Rosett said:


> Помолвка принца Уильяма - неудачный перевод для новостей. Слово "помолвка" годится для исторического романа.
> 
> Принц Уильям сделал предложение.


I can't agree. 'To be engaged' and 'to propose' are two different things. I really don't understand why some of you can't use 'помолвлен' and 'помолвка'. What's wrong with it?
Yes, we don't have the ceremony of engagement in our country, but I was present at one abroad. How should I explain where I was?
_Я была на ... _


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## Maroseika

RhoKappa said:


> I find this very hard to believe, because it is a very common occurrence for people to be engaged to wed.  There is no Russian expression for that?  In America, we simply say "engaged" if a marriage will be certain in the future.  There must be a common Russian expression to express betrothal.



There *is* Russian expression for this, and it is помолвка. The only snag is that this word is as obsolete as the procedure itself. In the past it was widely used and the whole procedure was rather complicated: сватовство (matchmaking) or предложение (marriage proposal) > помолвка (engagement) > обручение (betrothal) > свадьба (wedding) > счастливая жизнь в браке.
After 1917 it was replaced by a simple registration of the marriage in the registry office. Therefore all those words (save of свадьба) have gone out of use.


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## Mr_Darcy

The biggest challenge is actually posed by such thing as 'engagement ring'. I am not aware of any equivalent term in Russian.
Interestingly, 'wedding ring' today is обручальное кольцо, not свадебное or брачное or any other. So engagement ring should be something different, though, say, помолвочное will probably not work.


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## lectrice

_кольцо на помолвку/ кольцо для помолвки/ _и даже  встречается - _помолвочное кольцо_
http://www.unassvadba.ru/kolca/pomolvka_sovety_i_scenarii.html


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## Mr_Darcy

lectrice said:


> _кольцо на помолвку/ кольцо для помолвки/ _и даже  встречается - _помолвочное кольцо_
> http://www.unassvadba.ru/kolca/pomolvka_sovety_i_scenarii.html


Да, но это всё попытки перевода, и все они (пока) всё-таки режут ухо.


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## Maroseika

Mr_Darcy said:


> The biggest challenge is actually posed by such thing as 'engagement ring'. I am not aware of any equivalent term in Russian.
> Interestingly, 'wedding ring' today is обручальное кольцо, not свадебное or брачное or any other. So engagement ring should be something different, though, say, помолвочное will probably not work.



You can express in Russian any idea or subject referring to any alien tradition. What's the problem with кольцо на помолвку? Not too many people in Russia know the difference between a wedding and engagement rings, and what to do with the latter. Therefore any denomination will be nothing more than an attempt of translation. Like интеллигенция, квас or гречка in English. No common name for anything as long as this anything is not common.


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## morzh

RhoKappa said:


> I find this very hard to believe, because it is a very common occurrence for people to be engaged to wed.  There is no Russian expression for that?  In America, we simply say "engaged" if a marriage will be certain in the future.  There must be a common Russian expression to express betrothal.



While I agree with "there has to be an expression" part, I would advise you not to try to show that you understand Russian culture better than Russians themselves. (very popular thing to do amongst Americans, unfortunately - trying to apply their culture to others).

Engagement is common for Americans. It is not for Russians.


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## morzh

lectrice said:


> _кольцо на помолвку/ кольцо для помолвки/ _и даже  встречается - _помолвочное кольцо_
> http://www.unassvadba.ru/kolca/pomolvka_sovety_i_scenarii.html




This is awful. "Помолвочное". OMG.


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## morzh

Slavianophil said:


> If such a common Russian expression exists, I don't know it. Of course, I am not the highest authority on the Russian language, but Russian is my mother tongue and I have lived all my life in Russia.




Again. Let's separate Language from current Culture. They are NOT the same.

The language has the word "помолвка". 
It indeed does mean "engagement to be married".
Also "помолвлены" means "they are engaged to be married".

In the current culture however "помолвка" is not popular, borderline extinct. So when RhoKappa is trying to insist that people who decided to get married have to be engaged - he is being wrong. This is a different culture and he is trying to shoehorn his own into Russian one.

But, when people try to follow old customs (and some do - 20 years ago there were next to none of people who were openly, or even privately, religious in Russia - today it is super-popular; so may eventually happen with engagement), or when someone translates the foreign custom of engagement - Russian language does have the word for it, and it is "помолвка".


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## Mr_Darcy

Maroseika said:


> What's the problem with кольцо на помолвку?


The problem is it's an artificial construction and it offends the eye (or ear) as a foreign body in the language. For now.



Maroseika said:


> Not too many people in Russia know the difference between a wedding and engagement rings, and what to do with the latter. Therefore any denomination will be nothing more than an attempt of translation.


Sure. That's exactly what I'm saying.


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## Mr_Darcy

morzh said:


> The language has the word "помолвка".


Interestingly, I think I wouldn't have known the word помолвка if it wasn't for foreign TV series (because there are no contexts in which I could use it or hear it used in everyday life). And the same, I guess, applies to millions and millions of Russians.
For example, it is only today that, through this topic, I learned the word рукобитье, which, it turns out, was part of the prescribed pre-marriage procedure in Russia.


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## morzh

Mr_Darcy said:


> Interestingly, I think I wouldn't have known the word помолвка if it wasn't for foreign TV series. And the same, I guess, applies to millions and millions of Russians.



And it is sad, because personally I know the word "помолвка" from reading Russian classics, and not only classics - just books that referred to pre-revolutionary life.
If it takes TV for people to know that - it is an indicator of poor reading habits.

"Помолвка", as a cultural phenomenon, has been obsolete on the societal scale for less than a 100 years.

And again, the word does exist, and it is not some Church Slavonic, or even 18-th century obsolete word - it is quite modern by any standard.

*1) Помолвка* - Обряд, следующий за сватовством и предшествующий обручению (Ожегов)
*Помолвка* - церемония объявления кого-либо женихом и невестой. Часто сопровождалась обручением. (Энц. словарь)

Notice that the dictionaries do not even mark the word as "obsolete".
It is normal for the word denoting an obsolete phenomenon to be still not obsolete itself.

http://svadbanet.ru/index.php?menuid=17   (свадебный портал) - people are actually trying to reinstate the ritual, and not without success.


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## Mr_Darcy

morzh said:


> And it is sad, because personally I know the word "помолвка" from reading Russian classics, and not only classics - just books that referred to pre-revolutionary life.


Ah, yes, you're right. From Russian classics, too. But still not from "real life".


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## morzh

Mr_Darcy said:


> Ah, yes, you're right. From Russian classics, too. But still not from "real life".



This I agree with. I never saw any engagement in the USSR, nor do I think it 's been overly popular in Russia up 'til now, or will become so in the nearest future.

However, here in the US, as well as in the rest of the part of the world, which culture is European-based, "помолвка" is very popular, and is actually prevalent over those customs that do not include it. I'd not be afraid to say that probably 95%+ of people here in the US observe it. It may not be very formal, but nevertheless it will be there.

So, when speaking of this in Russian, I personally use that very word, "помолвка".


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## Natalisha

Mr_Darcy said:


> Ah, yes, you're right. From Russian classics, too. But still not from "real life".


Why not!? If you visit foreign countries and know their customs and traditions, why not?


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## Natalisha

morzh said:


> So, when speaking of this in Russian, I personally use that very word, "помолвка".


So do I.

But for this discussion I'd have never thought that 'помолвка' sounds strange to some people.


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## morzh

Natalisha said:


> So do I.
> 
> But for this discussion I'd have never thought that 'помолвка' sounds strange to some people.



Well, tempora mutantur. Today's word "днюха" sounds strange to me. Untill someone said on "Odnoklassniki" "С днюхой, Миша" - I would never guess what it means.
It's generational, Ich glaube


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## Mr_Darcy

Natalisha said:


> Why not!? If you visit foreign countries and know their customs and traditions, why not?


First, 90% of people in this country do not visit foreign countries or know foreign traditions.
Second, foreign people don't speak Russian, so you can't discuss помолвка with them.
In order to discuss foreign traditions with Russians, you have to know the corresponding Russian word in advance. What I'm saying is there are no (ok, let's say very few) real-life contexts in today's Russia where you could hear this word.
That is not to say that the word помолвка is not widely known. It is widely known and there are no problems with this word at all.


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## morzh

Mr_Darcy said:


> That is not to say that the word помолвка is not widely known. It is widely known and there are no problems with this word at all.



This is the key statement.
I think we can now wrap up this discussion, as we all agree now about what "помолвка" mean, and about it being well enough known to the general population.

And it does not matter where one learned the word from, as what matters is whether or not a person understands the word correctly.


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## Mr_Darcy

Just one more thing to clarify this:


RhoKappa said:


> Although the meaning would be clearly understood, is there a more common, colloquial way to say it in conversation?  Do people in everyday Russia use помолвлен/помолвка in everyday conversation?  If not, how do they say they will be married, though presently they are not formally wed?



Imagine a man paying attentions to a woman who is engaged to another guy. So, where, say, an American woman will say to the man "I'm engaged", a Russian woman will never say, "Я помолвлена" (ok, never say never, but still).
She has a lot of other options, like "я выхожу замуж", "у меня скоро свадьба", "я несвободна", etc.
By the way, "я несвободна", in a certain sense, better renders the meaning of "I am engaged," as "engagement" is a very broad word, while помолвка is very specific.


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## morzh

Mr_Darcy said:


> By the way, "я несвободна", in a certain sense, better renders the meaning of "I am engaged," as "engagement" is a very broad word, while помолвка is very specific.



This is not so. "I am engaged" when used as intransitive is as specific as anything.
"I am engaged into smth." - yes, but then it is transitive.

Also you compare a Russian and English words, so you cannot really compare specificity. The only translation of "помолвка" is "engagement".

Also do not forget that "engage / engagement" is short version of "engaged to be married" which is very specific.


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## Moroz

Mr_Darcy said:


> Just one more thing to clarify this:
> 
> 
> Imagine a man paying attentions to a woman who is engaged to another guy. So, where, say, an American woman will say to the man "I'm engaged", a Russian woman will never say, "Я помолвлена" (ok, never say never, but still).
> She has a lot of other options, like "я выхожу замуж", "у меня скоро свадьба", "я несвободна", etc.
> By the way, "я несвободна", in a certain sense, better renders the meaning of "I am engaged," as "engagement" is a very broad word, while помолвка is very specific.


 
I am not agree. I got married 3 years ago and several months before that we had had a party celebrating our engagement and it was "помолвка" for sure  Nowdays this tradition is becoming more and more popular again for the same reason as in Europe: after the proposal people have to save certain money for a big wedding party  All of my girlfriends have two rings: one for their engagement and another one for the wedding.


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## morzh

Moroz said:


> I am not agree*I don't agree*. I got married 3 years ago and several months before that we had had a party celebrating our engagement and it was "помолвка" for sure  Now*a*days this tradition is becoming more and more popular





Moroz said:


> All of my girlfriends have two rings: one for their engagement and another one for the wedding.



Wow!


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## Moroz

Sorry for "I am not agree"... a stupid mistake. Thanks!


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