# je ne / jeune / jeûne (prononciation)



## James Bates

Is there any audible difference between "je ne" (as in "je ne sais pas") and "jeune"?
Thanks.


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## RuK

There is, though it might seem slight. There's a site somewhere where you can type in a French word and have the computer pronounce it for you. Jeune is like heureusement, a long sound with your lips forward, whereas je ne is a shorter sound. 

Sorry if this is confusing - I hope someone out there will be able to explain this better than me!


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## DearPrudence

Not sure I understood everything well  and if I did, if I can agree.

*"je ne"* : the 2 "e" are pronounced the same way
*"jeune":* you don't pronounce the second "e" and the first "e" is more open. It is a short sound as well
*"jeûne":* in this case, it is pronounced like the "e's" in "*je ne*". It is longer that "jeune".

Hope it helps.
One of the sites mentioned.


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## Qcumber

James Bates said:


> Is there any audible difference between "je ne" (as in "je ne sais pas") and "jeune"?
> Thanks.


In normal rapid speech "je ne" in "je ne sais pas" is pronounced exactly like "jeune".
In careful speech or emphatic speech, "je" and "ne" are kept separate, so there can be no confusion with "jeune".


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## Outsider

They seem different to me. If this place is right, the "e" in "je ne" is a central vowel (upside down "e"), whereas the "eu" in "jeune" is a front (rounded) vowel (œ).


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## DearPrudence

Qcumber said:


> In normal rapid speech "je ne" in "je ne sais pas" is pronounced exactly like "jeune".
> In careful speech or emphatic speech, "je" and "ne" are kept separate, so there can be no confusion with "jeune".


 
Please, I don't like to disagree with other people but I can't but disagree.
In normal, oral speech, maybe you would drop the first "e" but it would never be pronounced like "jeune". Thinking even more about it, maybe it would approach that sound vaguely (maybe in the north of France) but if you speak really fast, you even prefer to drop the "ne":
*"Je ' veux pas être méchante mais je pense que tu as tort".*

In a word, no risk of confusion I would say



> They seem different to me. If this place is right, the "e" in "je ne" is a central vowel (upside down "e"), whereas the "eu" in "jeune" is a front (rounded) vowel (œ).


I wouldn't have dared to say it but that's exactly what I would have said


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> They seem different to me. If this place is right, the "e" in "je ne" is a central vowel (upside down "e"), whereas the "eu" in "jeune" is a front (rounded) vowel (œ).


 
My humble opinion: this is wrong from a phonetic point of view, but correct from a phonemic one.

The French phoneme represented by the IPA symbol for schwa (upside <e>) either has no realization, e.g. petit > p'tit [pti], or is pronounced like the <oeu> in boeuf, neuf, or <eu> in neuf, jeune, etc. [poe 'ti].

There is no such thing as a central vowel in standard French.

What is misleading is that the same symbol is used for the French phoneme and the centralized vowel of English - a [phone], not a /phoneme/ that is the realization of several phonemes in unstressed syllabes. For instance compare /lad/ in <lad> with /lad/ in <ballad>. In the former the phoneme /a/ is realized as [ae] whereas in the latter the same phoneme is realized as the schwa.

At least this is how I see things.

A major problem is that many people do not understand the difference between a /phoneme/ and a [phone], or simply do not know the latter term.


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## Outsider

And another problem is that the schwa symbol is often used for any and all reduced unstressed vowels -- which are not necessarily created equal!

Still, I have to repeat that the "e" in "je ne" does not sound the same as the "eu" in "jeune", to me.


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## Qcumber

DearPrudence said:


> *"jeûne":* in this case, it is pronounced like the "e's" in "*je ne*". It is longer that "jeune".


 
I'm afraid this is wrong. The vowel of <jeûne>, <peu>, <feu>, etc. contrasts with the vowel of <jeune>, <je>, <de>, <coeur>, <beurre>, etc.

I agree with you that the vowel of <jeûne> is longer than that of <feu> <peu>, etc.


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## Outsider

Odd, I would never identify the vowel in "de" with the one in "coeur" and "beurre". Maybe it's because the former is not pronounced at all, as you said earlier.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> And another problem is that the schwa symbol is often used for any and all reduced unstressed vowels -- which are not necessarily created equal!




The excellent English-English Collin's Cobuild dictionary has adequate representations for what others too simply represent with a schwa.

"Still, I have to repeat that the "e" in "je ne" does not sound the same as the "eu" in "jeune", to me."

I beg to disagree.
e.g. je vois > [Z@ 'vwa] / ['Zvwa]
It's either. No middle-of-road pronunciation. 



Outsider said:


> Odd, I would never identify the vowel in "de" with the one in "coeur" and "beurre". Maybe it's because the former is not pronounced at all, as you said earlier.


If the vowel of <de> is pronounced, it sounds exactly like that of <jeune>, <coeur> [a bit longer].
If it is silent, then it is silent, e.g. <de la viande> [dla 'vjã.d].


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> "Still, I have to repeat that the "e" in "je ne" does not sound the same as the "eu" in "jeune", to me."
> 
> I beg to disagree.
> e.g. je vois > [Z@ 'vwa] / ['Zvwa]
> It's either. No middle-of-road pronunciation.


I beg your pardon? 



Qcumber said:


> If the vowel of <de> is pronounced, it sounds exactly like that of <jeune>, <coeur> [a bit longer].
> If it is silent, then it is silent, e.g. <de la viande> [dla 'vjã.d].


Are you sure you aren't confusing the vowel in "jeune" with the one in "jeu"?
"J*eu*"="d*e*" I could buy, but not "j*eu*ne"="d*e*".


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> I beg your pardon?
> 
> Are you sure you aren't confusing the vowel in "jeune" with the one in "jeu"?
> "J*eu*"="d*e*" I could buy, but not "j*eu*ne"="d*e*".


 
[Ø] : jeu, peu, deux, noeud; 
ditto but vowel a bit longer: jeûne, neume
[oe] : jeune, je, oeuf, neuf
ditto but vowel a bit longer: peur, coeur, soeur, meurs.


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## DearPrudence

OK, this time, I agree more with you except on one point:
_For me <jeu> has the same vowel as <feu>, <nœud>  _
_<Jeune> has the same vowel as in <je>  , <sœur>  , <cœur>  , although this vowel is a bit longer before <r>._

Sorry, I'm only French, I haven't studied French phonetics/phonology, only English one, a long time ago, but for me, 
*<jeu> = <je>*
Argh, I'm sure I've already killed you writing such a horrible thing but in a schematical and understandable-for-all way, I would sum it up like that.

But actually, if you're kind of pretentious or in a playful way, you could pronounce "je ne sais pas" like "jeune sais pas" (kind of), with the stress on the first word.
Unfortunately, being a very bad girl, I only say: "chais pas".

Please, all my apologies for my ignorance, I hope it's understandable all the same.

(by the way I'm quite shocked you haven't properly spelled "sœur" and "cœur", for someone who makes the distinction between phonetics and phonology, it's a bit careless)


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## Qcumber

DearPrudence said:


> *<jeu> = <je>*


 
I have just checked it up in my Petit Robert :
jeu [ZØ]
je [Z(@)]  
Z = the sound represented by <j> in French
Ø = the sound represented by <ö> in German, e.g. König 
@ = the schwa


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## Outsider

Which does not clear up the issue, since you said earlier that the French 'schwa' is really one of the front rounded vowels. It may be [ø].


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## Cath.S.

Pour moi _je ne sais pas_, prononcé assez vite, sonne _exactement_ comme _jeune sait pas,_ mais j'ai bien conscience du fait que ce n'est pas le cas pour tout le monde, cela dépend de la personne, de sa classe sociale et de sa région. Alors si d'autres francophones me répondent « Ah bon ??? Tu causes bzarre, toi », je n'en serai pas autrement surprise !


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## Qcumber

DearPrudence said:


> But actually, if you're kind of pretentious or in a playful way, you could pronounce "je ne sais pas" like "jeune sais pas" (kind of), with the stress on the first word. Unfortunately, being a very bad girl, I only say: "chais pas".


 
1) Yes, emphatic pronunciation: the <e> of <je> is pronounced like the vowel of <deux>.

2) Yes, rapid speech pronunciation, the vowel is dropped and the consonant harmonizes with the following one.
/Z/ + /b/ > /Zb/, e.g. je bouffe [Zbuf]
/Z/ + /p/ > /Sp/, e.g. je peux [SpØ] 

/Z/ + /s/ > /Ss/, even /SS/, e.g. je sais [Ssè] > [SSè]


Z = the consonant represented by <j> in French
S = the consonant represented by <sh> in English, <ch> in French, <sch> in German.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

"Je ne" et "jeune" pour moi ne se confondent jamais. Le e de jeune est beaucoup plus ouvert. Mais il ne faut pas oublier que je n'ai pas l'accent enseigné aux étrangers... 
Et Egueule, oui, tu causes b*i*zarre, toi aussi !


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> Which does not clear up the issue, since you said earlier that the French 'schwa' is really one of the front rounded vowels. It may be [ø].


 
I am afraid I didn't say that.
I said that the symbol for schwa is used in the phonemic representation of French words to represent a phoneme that is either silent or realized as the phone [œ].

Prudence was also right to mention the exceptional emphatic version of the schwa - [Ø] - particularly in the pronoun <je>. See supra.


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## mickaël

egueule said:


> Pour moi _je ne sais pas_, prononcé assez vite, sonne _exactement_ comme _jeune sait pas_


Pour moi, même prononcé rapidement, le "e" de _je ne sais pas_ est un peu plus bref que celui de _jeune sait pas._


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## DearPrudence

egueule said:


> Pour moi _je ne sais pas_, prononcé assez vite, sonne _exactement_ comme _jeune sait pas_



Ah bon ?
En fait, moi, je prononce :
*"jeun' sait/veux/ ... pas".* (je n'ose plus dire "comme dans "jeu"" parce que je vais me faire taper dessus)
Comme j'ai dit, en insistant sur ce "jeun", cela peut s'apparenter à "jeune" (pourquoi pas).
Donc, tu prononcerais : *"J'ai 15 ans et <jeune> veut pas mourir"* ?  Mouais, pourquoi pas ?


Anyway, what is great is that now, everyone's more confused than at the beginning and I'm not sure James understands better now. If I were him, I would hate French now 
Anyway, he can try to make up his own opinion with some sites which give the oral pronunciation even if I know it's far from being perfect.


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> I am afraid I didn't say that.
> I said that the symbol for schwa is used in the phonemic representation of French words to represent a phoneme that is either silent or realized as the phone [œ].


That is clearly not right, though. Three native speakers have now told you that they do not pronounce "je" and "de" with the same vowel as "jeune" and "peur" (normally) -- which is [œ].

P.S. _That_ is the emphatic pronunciation, not the one with [ø].


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## Qcumber

mickaël said:


> Pour moi, même prononcé rapidement, le "e" de _je ne sais pas_ est un peu plus bref que celui de _jeune sait pas._


 
Vowel length in French does exist, but is generally ignored by linguists because it is not regarded as phonemic differently from the tenseness Vs laxity of English vowels (technical terms).

What matters in the case of a French vowel is whether it's "open" or "closed", e.g. <o> in <rosse> is "open" whereas <o> in <rose> is closed.



Outsider said:


> That is clearly not right, though. Three native speakers have now told you that they do not pronounce "je" and "de" with the same vowel as "jeune" and "peur" (normally) -- which is [œ].
> 
> P.S. _That_ is the emphatic pronunciation, not the one with [ø].


 
Well, what do you think of what I found in Le Petit Robert?


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## Outsider

That it does not contradict my position.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Qcumber said:


> What matters in the case of a French vowel is whether it's "open" or "closed", e.g. <o> in <rosse> is "open" whereas <o> in <rose> is closed.


You're perfectly right.
But come and visit the south of France and you will be surprised to hear that the o of rose could be open too.


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## Qcumber

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> You're perfectly right.
> But come and visit the south of France and you will be surprised to hear that the o of rose could be open too.


And in the North (Lille).
I made it clear I was talking about standard French. One cannot deal with all the varieties of French, can we? 



Outsider said:


> That it does not contradict my position.


 
Sorry, Outsider, now I do not see what you mean. I summed up my position with two sets of words. Could you please do the same to make your position clear?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Qcumber said:


> And in the North (Lille).
> I made it clear I was talking about standard French. One cannot deal with all the varieties of French, can we?


Maybe, but not me for sure. 
I can only deal with what I know, and I don't know really well "standard French". I'm sure you do better than me (no sarcasm here!).


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:
			
		

> Sorry, Outsider, I do not see what you mean.


I think you were mistaken when you wrote:


Qcumber said:


> In normal rapid speech "je ne" in "je ne sais pas" is pronounced exactly like "jeune".
> In careful speech or emphatic speech, "je" and "ne" are kept separate, so there can be no confusion with "jeune".





Qcumber said:


> The French phoneme represented by the IPA symbol for schwa (upside <e>) either has no realization, e.g. petit > p'tit [pti], or is pronounced like the <oeu> in boeuf, neuf, or <eu> in neuf, jeune, etc. [poe 'ti].





Qcumber said:


> I'm afraid this is wrong. The vowel of <jeûne>, <peu>, <feu>, etc. contrasts with the vowel of <jeune>, <je>, <de>, <coeur>, <beurre>, etc.
> 
> I agree with you that the vowel of <jeûne> is longer than that of <feu> <peu>, etc.





Qcumber said:


> If the vowel of <de> is pronounced, it sounds exactly like that of <jeune>, <coeur> [a bit longer].
> If it is silent, then it is silent, e.d. <de la viande> [dla 'vjã.d].





Qcumber said:


> [Ø] : jeu, peu, deux, noeud;
> ditto but vowel a bit longer: jeûne, neume
> [oe] : jeune, je, oeuf, neuf
> ditto but vowel a bit longer: peur, coeur, soeur, meurs.


It goes against what I know about French, and it goes against what several native speakers have said in this thread.

I guess this is it. Sorry.


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## geve

Outsider said:


> That is clearly not right, though. Three native speakers have now told you that they do not pronounce "je" and "de" with the same vowel as "jeune" and "peur" (normally) -- which is [œ].
> 
> P.S. _That_ is the emphatic pronunciation, not the one with [ø].


Make it four!!

_*Je ne jeûne jamais le jeudi. Les jeunes le font, eux !*_
Try this sentence on the link posted by DearPrudence: Alice, Bruno, Claire & Julie pronounce it like I would.

What they can't seem to get right is the pronounciation of the plural of "oeuf": _Un œuf avec du beurre; deux œufs bien baveux. _


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## Qcumber

As regards the initial question:

1) Je ne sais pas. [non-colloquial]
1a) discrete utterance : [Zœ nœ sè 'pa]
1b) coalesced utterance : [Zœn sè 'pa]

2) Je Ø sais pas. [colloquial]
2a) discrete utterance : [Zœ sè 'pa]
2b) coalesced utterance : [Ssè ‘pa] > [SSè 'pa]

The pronunciation [Zœn] of "je ne" in (1b) is also that of "jeune".

The first syllables of the whole (1b) series are:
1sg "je ne" [Zœn], 2sg "tu ne" [tyn], 3sg m "il ne" [in], 3sg f "elle ne" [èn], 3sg n "on ne" [õn]
1pl "nous ne" [nun], 2pl "vous ne" [vun], 3pl m "ils ne" [in], 3pl f "elles ne" [èn]

Again, Outsider, this is how _I_ align words according to the vocalic contrast:
[Ø] : jeu, peu, deux, noeud;
ditto but vowel a bit longer: jeûne, neume
[œ] : jeune, oeuf, neuf, de, je, le, ne
ditto but vowel a bit longer: peur, coeur, soeur, meurs.

How do _you_ align them?


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## Outsider

Why not ask the native speakers, Qcumber?


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## Qcumber

geve said:


> _*Je ne jeûne jamais le jeudi. Les jeunes le font, eux !*_


 
What do you mean, Geve? Your sentence merely shows the contrast between "jeune" and "jeûne". Everybody agrees on that. 

The gist of the problem is how to pronounce words such as "je" in isolation.

How do you pronounce "je" in isolation, Geve? Is its vowel as in "jeune" or as in "jeûne" or something else? As a Paris native speaker of French, which I suppose you are, you should be able to answer this simple question.


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> What do you mean, Geve? Your sentence merely shows the contrast between "jeune" and "jeûne".


No, it does not. It also shows a contrast between "jeune" and "je".

(Forget the damn long vowels, for a minute. That's not the point of this thread!)


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> Why not ask the native speakers, Qcumber?


 
Sorry, Outsider, you can't possibly eschew the problem that way. You disagreed with me, so you should align the words to show how you disagree with me.

I have asked, Geve, a native speaker of French to tell us how he pronounces "je" in isolation.


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## Qcumber

I have tried the sentence "Je suis un jeune qui jeûne." with Alice and Bruno of the robot program, and I cannot hear any difference between the vowel of "je" and that of "jeune".
Do you?


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> Sorry, Outsider, you can't possibly eschew the problem that way.


I'm afraid I can. We are discussing a language, right? Who better than native speakers to tell us how that language is spoken?
I'm surprised that someone like you, who apparently has learned some linguistics, insists on summarily ignoring the testimonies of native speakers. Isn't that kind of -- I don't know -- _prescriptive_?



Qcumber said:


> I have tried the sentence "Je suis un jeune qui jeûne." with Alice and Bruno of the robot program, and I cannot hear any difference between the vowel of "je" and that of "jeune".
> Do you?


I can hear the difference. "Jeune" and "Jeûne" definitely sound closer to each other than either does to "je".

Perhaps your ear is tuned to differences in quantity, but more deaf to differences in vowel quality.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Try with Claire, it's... clearer : "Je ne jeune jeûne."


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## Outsider

Interesting! With Claire's voice, "jeune" does sound quite different from "jeûne" -- though still clearly different from "je". In fact, "jeûne" sounds closer to "je" than "jeune" (but, yes, the stressed vowel in "jeûne" is longer).


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## Fred_C

Il existe en phonétique une notion fondamentale qu'on appelle allophones par rapport à phonème.
Deux phonèmes différents se distinguent par une paire minimale, c'est à dire deux mots qui se prononcent presque de la même manière, mais qui n'ont pas le même sens.
Par exemple, "jeune" et "jeûne" constituent une paire minimale qui prouve que les sons que l'on note [œ] et [ø] en alphabet phonétique constituent deux phonèmes différents.
deux allophones sont deux manières différentes de prononcer le même phonème, sans qu'il existe de paire minimale.
Par exemple, comparer le son k dans le mot "qui", à celui qui est dans le mot "cas", si vous faites très attention, vous verrez que le premier est moins sourd que le second.
Certaines paires d'allophones sont inconscientes chez les locuteurs, d'autres sont conscientes.
Je pense qu'aujourd'hui, en france, il n'y a plus de paire minimale permettant de distinguer [œ] du e muet (représenté à l'envers en phonétique) du mot je. Il s'agit donc d'une paire d'allophones. Cela implique que l'on est libre de les confondre. Il est normal que des synthétiseurs vocaux les prononcent de la même manière.
Il y a à peu près cent ans, à l'époque de l'invention de l'alphabet phonétique, ces deux allophones constituaient certainement deux phonèmes, car sinon on les aurait représentés par le même symbole.


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## Outsider

Fred_C said:


> Il est normal que des synthétiseurs vocaux les prononcent de la même manière.


Mais ils ne le font pas !


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## Qcumber

I've just rung up a sister-in-law who is a native speaker of French and lives in Saint-Cloud, near Paris. 
I asked her how she pronounced: _je ne sais pas_ in rapid speech, and if the contraction of "je ne" was different from "jeune". She said there was no difference.
I asked her what the vocalic difference was between "jeu" and "jeûne". She said the vowel of "jeûne" is definitely longer than that of "jeu", and perhaps a bit more open.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> Perhaps your ear is tuned to differences in quantity, but more deaf to differences in vowel quality.


I don't know. This is the first time I am told this. I think I'm tuned to both.


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## DearPrudence

Qcumber said:


> What do you mean, Geve? Your sentence merely shows the contrast between "jeune" and "jeûne". Everybody agrees on that.
> 
> The gist of the problem is how to pronounce words such as "je" in isolation.
> 
> How do you pronounce "je" in isolation, Geve? Is its vowel as in "jeune" or as in "jeûne" or something else? As a Paris native speaker of French, which I suppose you are, you should be able to answer this simple question.



OK, I think this thread is going nowhere with a non-native speaker despising the input of real speakers because he thinks he speaks the language better than them because HE has an acute and academic knowledge of French thanks to books.
Where are we all going?!
Do you think we've helped James in some way? I think he got lost after the third post only!

I think Gève's post was really interesting and the more helpful indeed.
But I suppose it was not good enough because she talked about a language she's spoken for only a few decades on a daily basis and maybe hasn't studied phonetics as much as she should (just like me).



> How do you pronounce "je" in isolation, Geve?


I'm not Geve, but about like "jeu" I would say. No matter what the Robert says.



> Is its vowel as in "jeune" or as in "jeûne" or something else? As a Paris native speaker of French, which I suppose you are, you should be able to answer this simple question.


Yes, so please let us answer without using "scientific" terms that drives us, native speakers, out of the conversation!!! Personally I have the impression I can't even participate to that thread because I don't know the French phonetics: c'est un comble !!



Outsider said:


> ... It also shows a contrast between "jeune" and "je".
> 
> (Forget the damn long vowels, for a minute. That's not the point of this thread!)


Exactly. I agree on everything 

more than 50 posts on that question ... No comment


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## geve

Somebody called me? 


Qcumber said:


> How do you pronounce "je" in isolation, Geve? Is its vowel as in "jeune" or as in "jeûne" or something else? As a Paris native speaker of French, which I suppose you are, you should be able to answer this simple question.


The colors were there for a reason:


geve said:


> _*Je ne jeûne jamais le jeudi. Les jeunes le font, eux !*_
> 
> _Un œuf avec du beurre; deux œufs bien baveux. _


I pronounce all green E sounds the same, and all rose E sounds the same (regardless of the _length_ of the vowels).
But I have little notions of phonetics. Just my 26 years of hearing and speaking French. 
_______________________________

Even if I had come and said the contrary - that I pronounce the E in "je" and "jeune" the same way - you could not ignore the opinion that so many other posters gave in this thread.

We've had this problem before on these forums, and I expect it will come up again in the future... I am all for debating, we might never reach a consensus, and disagreement is not a bad thing, it feeds the discussion too. I don't ask you or anyone to agree with me or anyone else; but I ask you to *take these opinions into account*.

You cannot say "this is how it is pronounced and it's the only correct way", when forer@s have already said that they and their relatives pronounce it differently. Even if they are "wrong" to pronounce it this way, even if the "book of correct pronounciation of French" says the contrary, it still means that there are other ways. Languages live in the mouths, palates, tongues of their speakers.


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## Argor

The way I pronounce as a French: (Official way too)

"e" in "je" [ʒə] (sampa: Z@)
"eu"  in "jeu [ʒø] (sampa: Z2)
"eu" in "jeune" [ʒœn] (sampa: Z9n)
"eû" in "jeûne" [ʒøn] (sampa: Z2n)

je ne sais pas [ʒə nə sɛ pɑ] or ['ʒənsɛ pɑ]

French/English equivalences:
Je ne sais pas [ʒə nə sɛ pɑ] or ['ʒənsɛ pɑ] == I do not know 
Je sais pas [ʒə sɛ pa] == I don't know 
J'sais pas [ʃɛ pa] == don't know


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## neptilo

Qcumber said:


> this is how _I_ align words according to the vocalic contrast:
> [Ø] : jeu, peu, deux, noeud;
> ditto but vowel a bit longer: jeûne, neume
> [œ] : jeune, oeuf, neuf, de, je, le, ne
> ditto but vowel a bit longer: peur, coeur, soeur, meurs.



As a native speaker, I agree on everything.


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