# もう一歩といったところ



## JoAnne van Heff

hello, the context is the following.
うん、でも、ラーセンさんは、もう一歩といったところですが、プレイスメントテストの成績も悪くなかったし、文法もちゃんとしているから、頑張れば大丈夫だと思いますよ。

What does "といったところ" means here?


----------



## frequency

といったところ doesn't have a significant meaning per se, but it can work to avoid a straight and blatant remark.
もう一歩 is used to denote a disappointing thing, so if you say もう一歩ですが, it may sound a bit rude to a hearer.
So if you say もう一歩といったところですが, it's softer. "If I should say something about you, you're not slightly enough. But.."
(Note that といったところ doesn't exactly mean so. It sounds like that.)


----------



## JoAnne van Heff

So how would you transplante the first parte of the phrase then?


----------



## frequency

I'd say as I said in #2.


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> もう一歩 is used to denote a disappointing thing, so if you say もう一歩ですが, it may sound a bit rude to a hearer.


もう一歩 does not necessarily imply disappointment.  In OP's context, I see it rather as an encouraging remark.  And I don't think it rude to state a fair judgement about a student's progress from a teacher's point of view.  It's part of their job.



JoAnne van Heff said:


> うん、でも、ラーセンさんは、もう一歩といったところですが、プレイスメントテストの成績も悪くなかったし、文法もちゃんとしているから、頑張れば大丈夫だと思いますよ。
> 
> What does "といったところ" means here?


"といったところ" here means "about".  It can mean "at best" in another context.

Are you sure you quoted the sentence correctly?  もう一歩 literally means "one more step" and in this context "ラーセンさん" is "one step short of [something]".  But that "something" is not stated here.  I assume it is an aspect of language learning such as listening or writing because the speaker mentions "grammar" later.  Is it clear from the preceding conversation?


----------



## frequency

JoAnne van Heff said:


> ラーセンさんは、もう一歩といったところですが


This sounds unhappy news.
I mean the OP sounds softer than もう一歩ですが.


----------



## frequency

JoAnne van Heff said:


> もう一歩といったところ


This ところ is 三 形式名詞,
1 〔漢文の「為 A 所 B 」を「 A の B するところとなる」と訓読したことから〕 状態。成り行き。
Not this one:
二　抽象的な事柄についての位置や場面など。
ア　ちょうど何かをしようとする，あるいは，何かをしたばかりの場面・状況であることを表す。ちょうどその時。ほかならぬその時点。 「出かけようとする－に来客があった」 「もうすぐ式が始まる－だ」 「今し方外出した－だ」

あなたはもう一歩だ。 means you haven't reached a satisfactory level/point. You're insufficient. 
The OP says ラーセンさん is so. He's about to be insufficient? No.

If you say あなたはもう一歩だ。, it sounds direct and blatant. So if you say あなたはもう一歩といったところですが・・, it sounds softer than it.


----------



## Flaminius

frequency said:


> He's about to be insufficient? No.


There is some misunderstanding here.  もう一歩 means that one is one step (a metaphor for efforts) behind meeting the standard.  It can be either approving or disparaging depending on how high the standard is set.  といったところ is "about" in the sense of approximation.  So, Larsen has to work a little bit more to meet the standard.

I don't look very kindly upon how 大辞林 (Weblio Japanese Dict.) divides and explains its *sub*divisions, but the ところ under discussion falls into a *division* called 抽象的な事柄についての位置や場面など.  Metaphorically, 一歩 measures the distance between where Larsen stands and the standard.

The sense of 成り行き is best understood as 大辞林's explanation of how ところ is used in the construction ところとなる.  Its example 人の知るところとなった ("In the end, others (sim. all the people) found it out.") is indeed 成り行き, but ところ in 人の知るところだ is not even 状態.  It's what others know.


----------



## frequency

I guess that you want to say like "You are (He is) roughly/approximately one step behind a satisfactory level."

But the OP still sounds "You're in the situation like one-step-behind..", not "You're one step behind the level!" By using といったところ, we want to make a speech roundabout in order to make it softer. And I think this is what Joanne wants to know.

This kind of technique that makes a speech longer and roundabout is often in Japanese.


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> the OP still sounds "You're in the situation like one-step-behind..", not "You're one step behind the level!" By using といったところ, we want to make a speech roundabout in order to make it softer. And I think this is what Joanne wants to know.


I’m not so sure といったところ sounds softer than without it. If you were saying “You need a little more push to reach the standard” sounds softer than “You have not reached the standard yet”, I would agree.  But "もう一歩" is already an euphemism for implying the latter, isn’t it?  I think “といったところ” has more to do with the tentativeness of the speaker’s judgement.  ラーセンさん may need one more step or two more steps or half a step more (metaphorically, of course), but it should be somewhere in that zone.  This is why I think “about” is appropriate here. The speaker may avoid this tentativeness when making a formal report.


----------



## frequency

No, how to say it in English is not the point. Guess why といったところ is used, not もう一歩ですが.


----------



## Flaminius

といったところ is used because measuring up someone in precise terms comes across blunt. Approximation is one of the techniques used as a hedge.  If you say about a step, there arises a room for the listener to interpret it as half a step and conclude they are juat teensy bit less than perfect.

I am sure there is a great room for what a "situation" means, but do the following warrant that concept?
A: 彼は年はいくつだろうね。
B: 30ちょっと前ってとこだな。

A: この壺にいくら値段つけようか。
B: とても状態はいいけど、今同じようなものが出回っているから、10万円ってとこがせいぜいじゃない。


----------



## frequency

Strictly speaking, ところ per se doesn't have the meaning of around, about, roughly, approximately.
I found, 4 数量を表す語に「が」を介して付いて，そのぐらいの程度であることを表す。くらい。 「千円がところ損をした」
this isn't the usage in the OP.

The ところ in this といったところ is 形式名詞 that means 1 〔漢文の「為 A 所 B 」を「 A の B するところとなる」と訓読したことから〕 状態。成り行き。 「人の知る－となった」.
That ところ means the position, state, situation, circumstance, outcome, consequence described as もう一歩.
"You're in the situation that I'd say somehow もう一歩." Maybe this roundabout style helps sound it "approximation" or "about". As a result, it tries to avoid blatantness.

(The ところ in といったところ is a famous usage of 形式名詞 ところ.)


----------



## frequency

Flaminius said:


> I am sure there is a great room for what a "situation" means, but do the following warrant that concept?
> A: 彼は年はいくつだろうね。
> B: 30ちょっと前ってとこだな。


Because you're using ってとこ（といったところ) with those 数量. They sound "approximate" and would be possible.

At the same time, that usage in #12 can avoid directness and assertiveness. This is similar to what といったところ in the OP does. Compare: 30ちょっと前だな。10万円がせいぜいじゃない。


----------



## Flaminius

If you allow quantifiers to be used with ところ in sense of “about,” then you can also explain away the sense of もう一歩といったところ.  After all, 一歩 is a quantifier and ってとこ is nothing but the colloquial contraction of といったところ.


----------



## frequency

If you call （もう）一歩 quantifier, and this is a matter of definition and of how you see it. I rather see もう一歩 is an adjective-like phrase that describes how it is. Therefore it fits 成り行き or 状態.


----------



## Flaminius

Maybe もう一歩 sounds too idiomatic and there seems to be little room for improvisation.  However, consider:
駅まであと200mといったところだ。

This is 範囲 as explained by 明鏡国語辞典 s.v. ところ 1-7:
《数量・程度・範囲などを示す連体修飾句を受けて》おおよその程度や漠然とした範囲を表す。「大体のーーは分かった」「三日がーー(=三日ほど)音さたがない」​


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> No, how to say it in English is not the point. Guess why といったところ is used, not もう一歩ですが.


How to say it in English is not _my _point either.   I challenged your idea that X is *softer* than Y with my idea that X is *more tentative* than Y.  
What I meant was あなたはもう一歩だ is softer than あなたは不十分だ, and もう一歩 is an euphemism for the latter.  But といったところ doesn't enter into the issue of softness.  

And I _*did*_ guess why といったところ is used. 


Contrafibularity said:


> I think “といったところ” has more to do with the tentativeness of the speaker’s judgement. ラーセンさん may need one more step or two more steps or half a step more (metaphorically, of course), but it should be somewhere in that zone. This is why I think “about” is appropriate here. The speaker may avoid this tentativeness when making a formal report.


----------



## frequency

> あなたはもう一歩だ is softer than あなたは不十分だ


In other words, あなたはもう一歩だ means あなたは不十分だ, strictness and softness aside. It's not a matter of how you translate it.


----------



## frequency

Flaminius said:


> 《数量・程度・範囲などを示す連体修飾句を受けて》おおよその程度や漠然とした範囲を表す。「大体のーーは分かった」


I'm very sorry for nitpicking. If you say もう一歩のところで転んだ, this is the same usage as 「大体のところは分かった」. Because といった isn't 連体修飾詞, but 連語.

駅まであと200mといったところだ。This is mysterious but it's 数詞・数量.


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> In other words, あなたはもう一歩だ means あなたは不十分だ, strictness and softness aside. It's not a matter of how you translate it.


I really don't understand why you have been accusing me of making a great deal of translation.   Where did I say, _or even imply_, that this is a matter of how you translate it?   Did you read my post #18?   I challenged your *idea*, not your *translation*.


----------



## frequency

I don't understand what you want to say.

The usage of もう一歩 in the OP means もう一歩足りないといったところ.
Somebody (or something) is:
One step behind something like level
Slightly not enough
Slightly lacking
Slightly not satisfied
・・・
(Slightly) insufficient.
That 不十分 is just one of the examples I used for explanation, so you can forget it and use もう一歩 instead. Because they don't differ actually, replacement doesn't affect them at all.

I just want to say that the OP sounds ラーセンさんは、もう一歩足りないといったところですが、 and it still sounds to me


frequency said:


> "You're in the situation that I'd say somehow もう一歩."


Or "If I'd say somehow, you're in the situation/state like もう一歩". 

The point is that why it is so roundabout, not ラーセンさんはもう一歩ですが・ラーセンさんはもう一歩足りないですが. Why is the speaker using といったところ？In my opinion, as I said repeatedly, in order to avoid directness and blantantness.


----------



## Flaminius

frequency said:


> Because といった isn't 連体修飾詞, but 連語.


These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## frequency

I still don't get what you want to say, but ラーセンさんは、もう一歩のところですが、
yes, this is possible and sounds near the level, one step behind the level.


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> The point is that why it is so roundabout, not ラーセンさんはもう一歩ですが・ラーセンさんはもう一歩足りないですが. Why is the speaker using といったところ？In my opinion, as I said repeatedly, in order to avoid directness and blantantness.


I understand your point and what you want to say.  I think differently, so I challenged you.   And you haven't said much except repeating that the phrase "sounds" softer with といったところ than without it.  My point is that it is NOT so roundabout and といったところ DOES have a meaning.  And in _my _opinion, as _I _said repeatedly, the speaker uses といったところ *in order to avoid making a clear-cut judgement because s/he is not entirely sure, not because s/he wants to sound nice.*


----------



## frequency

As a matter of expression and effect, in the Japanese text, that いったところ can be


> *in order to avoid making a clear-cut judgement because s/he is not entirely sure, not because s/he wants to sound nice*


If I'd say about the grammatical point, I'm sorry to say 形式名詞 ところ works similar to a relative clause. He is in a tokoro. What kind of tokoro? もう一歩といった. So grammatically that doesn't have a significant meaning very much.


----------



## Contrafibularity

frequency said:


> If I'd say about the grammatical point, I'm sorry to say 形式名詞 ところ works similar to a relative clause. He is in a tokoro. What kind of tokoro? もう一歩といった. So grammatically that doesn't have a significant meaning very much.


I'm not challenging you about how to parse the phrase.  It's just you and I have different opinions on what "といったところ" means.  But if you insist on the meaning of "ところ", I'd go with 明鏡's definition that Flaminius listed in #17.  



frequency said:


> As a matter of expression and effect, in the Japanese text, that いったところ can be





Contrafibularity said:


> in order to avoid making a clear-cut judgement because s/he is not entirely sure, not because s/he wants to sound nice.


Well, if you admit this, I think I've made my point.  After all, how a phrase _sounds_ is exactly its *effect *(isn't it?), and that's what you have been insisting on so far.  

However, this is not merely a matter of how it sounds.  Imagine that you are standing on a schoolyard and you see a tall tree ahead of you.  Someone comes to you and say, "ここからあの木まではあなたの歩幅で 　　　　　です。"
a)　五十歩
b)   五十歩といったところ
Now, you actually walk the distance and find out it is 五十三歩.  In this case, saying 五十歩 is simply not true because 五十歩 is NOT 五十三歩.  However, saying 五十三歩 is fine because *"といったところ" allows a margin*.  I know this margin is subjective and may vary from person to person, but at least *it covers a wider range*.  Now, 五十歩 sounds direct and rude?  No.  It's just you are not careful enough to allow the margin.  五十歩といったところ sounds softer or more polite?  No. It's just you are careful.    The only difference between my example and the OP's is that "〜歩" is used figuratively in the latter.


----------



## frequency

1) もう一歩だ。
2) もう一歩といったところだ。
1) is direct. 2) is less direct because of the addition. Then it can avoid directness, explicitness, exactness. 
As a result, depending on the context or personal interpretation, it sounds like avoiding to be very sure or be blatant.

For this reason,
3) 200mだ。
4) 200mといったところだ。
In 4), you can avoid saying that the distance is exactly 200m. 

２００ｍのところ
大体のところ
もう一歩のところ
They seem different a bit, but similar.
(200m is a distance, so that 200mのところ clearly means that it is a location and distance.)

200mといったところだ。－approximation
200mのところ －distance and location. A noun phrase like 中国の作家, and 中国の works like an adjective.

「もう一歩」は、少し足りない状態を表し残念なので、「もう一歩です」とはっきり言うより「もう一歩といったところ」の方がソフトです。
「五十歩」は、距離のことなので「五十歩といったところ」といえば「だいたい五十歩」のことでしょう。（200mの例と同じ）


----------

