# Pronunciation: Montilivi



## LoveVanPersie

_Montilivi_ is the name of a _barri_ in Girona and a stadium named _Estadi Municipal de Montilivi_ is located there. _Nomenclàtor oficial de toponímia major de Catalunya_ transcribes the toponym [ˈmontiˈliβi], with the _o_ not reduced to /u/ in Central Catalan. However, in several Central Catalan videos I found I only heard the _o_ of the stadium name pronounced /u/.

How do you pronounce the _o_ in the toponym and the stadium name, and which pronunciation is more common? */o/ or /u/ * in dialects where normally unstressed _o_ is reduced? */o/ with or without secondary stress* in dialects where generally unstressed _o_ isn't reduced? (If the toponym and the stadium name have different pronunciations, please tell me.)

Moltíssimes gràcies!


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## Dymn

I think you should wait for someone from Girona to have the local pronunciation, but I think it's good either way.



LoveVanPersie said:


> I found I only heard the _o_ of the stadium name pronounced /u/.


Then go for /u/.


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> I think you should wait for someone from Girona to have the local pronunciation


@Bevj may now.


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## Bevj

Gracias Circunflejo pero no sé si puedo aportar mucho sobre todo porque nunca aprendí y no conozco los símbolos fonéticos.
Si entiendo bien, la consulta es si el *o* de Montilivi se pronuncia más como *o* o *u*.
Diría que se acerca más a la *u*,  pero no tanto como en la palabra _tú_ . No lleva ningún tipo de énfasis. 
Disculpa la pobreza de mi respuesta.


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## Penyafort

LoveVanPersie said:


> _Montilivi_ is the name of a _barri_ in Girona and a stadium named _Estadi Municipal de Montilivi_ is located there. _Nomenclàtor oficial de toponímia major de Catalunya_ transcribes the toponym [ˈmontiˈliβi], with the _o_ not reduced to /u/ in Central Catalan. However, in several Central Catalan videos I found I only heard the _o_ of the stadium name pronounced /u/.


This girl says Montilivi, with an /o/, right at the beginning. 

If the _Nomenclàtor _marks [ˈmontiˈliβi], it's because they know most of us might hesitate between /o/ and /u/. The difference with Montjuic, Montsant, Montseny, etc., where it is /u/, is that Montilivi seems to be seen as a compound with two different stresses, hence why it is not /u/ because the syllable is not unstressed.


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> If the _Nomenclàtor _marks [ˈmontiˈliβi], it's because they know most of us might hesitate between /o/ and /u/. The difference with Montjuic, Montsant, Montseny, etc., where it is /u/, is that Montilivi seems to be seen as a compound with two different stresses, hence why it is not /u/ because the syllable is not unstressed.


Funnily enough, for me it's the other way around but, of course, I'm not a native speaker.


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## Agró

Montilivi [m*u*ņti’liβi]
Cliqueu aquí (pàgina 49).

(A la pàgina 4, l'autor diu:
"El treball de recerca titulat Els meus 100 topònims gironins vol ser l’estudi d’un recull de cent noms de lloc de la ciutat de Girona i el seu entorn, analitzant d’on provenen, quin és el seu origen etimològic, el seu possible significat *i com aquests es pronuncien amb accent gironí*.)


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## Penyafort

So in the end it all depends on how much of a compound it seems. The element Mont- is so obviously associated to a mountain that many people hesitate, because you wouln't say /u/ if it was two words. That is, Montblanc, the town, is with /u/ for Central speakers, but el Mont Blanc, the mountain in the Alps, is obviously with /o/.

In the chapter about stress of the Gramàtica essencial catalana, this can be read: (the bolding is mine)


> — En els mots prefixats i en els compostos, l’accent del mot es manté en el constituent de la dreta, mentre que el de l’esquerra *normalment perd l’accent, sense que es produeixi, però, reducció vocàlica*⇒: _contracorrent_ (_c_[o]_ntracorr_[é]_nt_), _celobert _(_c_[ɛ]_lob_[ɛ́]_rt_), _lloctinent _(_ll_[ɔ]_ctin_[é]_nt_), _obrellaunes _([ɔ]_brell_[á]_unes_). En condicions especials, com és el cas de l’èmfasi contrastiu⇒, es pot recuperar l’accent del primer element, com en _Parlo del_ _tractament pr_[ɛ́]_operatori_,_ no p_[ɔ́]_stoperatori_ (o _pr_[é]_operatori_ i _p_[ó]_stoperatori_, segons el parlar).
> La pèrdua del caràcter composicional del significat i el fet que el parlant no tingui consciència que es tracta d’un mot prefixat o compost *poden fer que hi hagi reducció vocàlica*. Així, en parlars orientals, mots com contradir i entrepà es poden pronunciar amb reducció de la primera vocal (cntradir, [ə]ntrepà), o sense reducció (c[o]ntradir o c[ɔ]ntradir, [e]ntrepà o [ɛ]ntrepà, segons el parlar), per bé que la solució més general en els registres formals és no fer reducció.



This means that if Montilivi is seen as a compound, there should be no reduction of the -o-, but since this type of words end up being seen as one single word, reducing it is common practice. The text says reduction shouldn't be done in formal registres, but it doesn't specify if the same thing applies to placenames, where the local pronunciation usually prevails.


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## LoveVanPersie

Very grateful for literally everyone's help!


Dymn said:


> Then go for /u/.


Gràcies! I'm always afraid I misheard.


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## Dymn

_M*o*ntserrat _is definitely with /u/, the other _monts _to be honest I don't think usage is so neat.



Penyafort said:


> The difference with Montjuic, Montsant, Montseny, etc., where it is /u/, is that Montilivi seems to be seen as a compound with two different stresses, hence why it is not /u/ because the syllable is not unstressed.





Circunflejo said:


> Funnily enough, for me it's the other way around but, of course, I'm not a native speaker.


_Montsant, Montseny, Montblanc_, even _Montjuïc _(Jew Mount) are clearer compounds (the meaning of the second part is well-known) than _Montilivi_. So if one of them is *not *to be regarded as a compound, this should be _Montilivi_. But yeah, do whatever pronunciation is more common locally.


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## father time

I've always heard it with /u/ locally, and it would be in line with the rest of toponyms that start with mont- in eastern catalunya.


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## isagcom

Dymn said:


> _M*o*ntserrat _is definitely with /u/, the other _monts _to be honest I don't think usage is so neat.
> 
> 
> 
> _Montsant, Montseny, Montblanc_, even _Montjuïc _(Jew Mount) are clearer compounds (the meaning of the second part is well-known) than _Montilivi_. So if one of them is *not *to be regarded as a compound, this should be _Montilivi_. But yeah, do whatever pronunciation is more common locally.


Jo dic aquests amb u: Montserrat, Montjuïc, Montilivi, Montseny, Montsant i  aquest amb o: Montblanc. Però no et puc assegurar si ho dic bé.
(Visc a l'Alt Maresme, a mig camí entre Barcelona i Girona)


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