# taken as a reverse verdict



## Fantaghiro

Bonjour,

J'ai un souci avec cette phrase:

"Thus did the fate of Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on the fate of the churches."

Contexte : philosophie. En gros, les paragraphes précédents disent que le communisme s'attendait à ce que la religion s'effondre. Or, c'est le communisme qui s'est effondré.

Des idées ? 

Merci !


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## Novanas

Hi, Fantaghiro!  I don't know where you got this sentence.  It's awful English.  Is it a translation from another language?

E.g., "Thus did. . . to be taken" makes no sense at all.  "Thus could. . . be taken" would be much better.  And "for one"?  I'm not sure what that means.

Anyway, getting to your real question, I'm not entirely clear as to what "a reverse verdict" is.  I suppose what it means is that Communism made a judgement (--> delivered a verdict) on the churches, but that judgement/verdict was reversed, i.e., redirected at Communism itself.

That's how I understand it.  Not being a French speaker myself, I can't help you with the translation.  But perhaps this will help someone else give you a suggestion.


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## Kelly B

I agree that the sentence is a mess; I might have guessed something different, if I hadn't seen Novanas' post. Please provide a few of the surrounding sentences.


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## Fantaghiro

Hello everyone !

Actually, I missed a word in the sentence : "Thus did the fate of Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on the fate of the churches."
But for the rest, it's unfortunately a real sentence taken from a real book, written in American by an American...

Here is the previous sentence, although I doubt it'll be of any help : "In sum, as world events seemed practically to conspire on the side of religious believers, the contrary idea of a religious "end of history" seemed less defensible than before."

About my passage, I think of something like that : "Thus was the fate of Communism, to endure the fate it had planned for the churches."

I wonder if it comes from me, but the sentences look awkward...


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## Mauricet

> "Thus did the fate of Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on the fate of the churches."





> Actually, I *missed a word* in the sentence :
> "Thus did the fate of  Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on  the fate of the churches."


Quel mot ? Which word?


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## petit1

Allez, je tente quelque chose: "_C'est ainsi que , d'une part, le communisme a en quelque sorte connu un sort (destin) inverse de celui qu'ont connu les religions_ (et d'autre part ....) "


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## Fantaghiro

Mauricet> I had forgotten the word "come".

Petit> Super, ça va dans le même sens que ce que j'ai compris de la phrase. Mais je ne comprends toujours pas l'usage du "for one"...


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## petit1

Ben, moi non plus, c'est pourquoi j'ai imaginé qu'il devait y avoir une suite avec "d'une part" et "d'autre part".
Cependant je ne suis toujours pas certaine d'avoir compris le sens de cette phrase ampoulée.


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## Michelvar

En français il arrive aussi qu'on utilise "d'abord" ou "premièrement" pour souligner qu'on parle d'un élément important, sans forcément citer par la suite le reste des éléments.


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## Kelly B

I remain perplexed about reverse verdict, but here's what I think the rest means, or less (and borrowing shamelessly from Petit1): c'est ainsi qu'on a commencé à voir le sort du Communisme, entre autres, comme xxxx


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## Itisi

Je _crois_ que ça veut dire que le sort du communisme, entre autre (?), a pu être considéré comme une sorte de renversement du verdict que consitutuait le sort de l'église : comme si on pardonnait à l'église en condamnant le communisme.


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## mirifica

Bonjour,

Ce que je crois avoir compris, :

le communisme avait prédit la fin de l'opium du peuple, la religions et que par ironie de l'histoire, il est tombé le premier. Les églises sont toujours là ?


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## Uncle Bob

Sorry but I don't see anything really wrong with the sentence but note that it is not just "verdict" but "verdict of sorts":
_un genre de_ _jugement/verdicte_.

Secondly, the "for one" indicates that the "fate of Communism" was only one reason for _the retournement_ about the churches (the major one).

Finally,  it isn't "_Les églises sont toujours là_" so much as "_les églises renaissent_"


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## mirifica

Bonjour,

Désolée pour la paraphrase précédente...

Ainsi, en premier lieu, la_ chute_ du communisme a-t-elle pu être considérée comme une réplique inverse du sort prédit aux Eglises. ???


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## Itisi

D'après d'autres fils,dans le texte que traduit Fantaghiro, il s'agit de la religion, donc je pense que l'accent est sur ce qui arrive aux églises, 'the fate of the churches' par rapport au communisme, et pas l'inverse. (Je vous réfère à mon post à #11 que j'ai corrigé, en espérant qu'il soit plus clair.)  Le communisme avait été comme une condamnation de la religion, et sa chute est comme un renversement du verdict, une sorte d'acquittement.


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## Fantaghiro

Re-bonjour,

Je fais remonter ce post, que je viens de retrouver.
En fait, la démonstration générale, c'est que le Christianisme résiste à tout. La démonstration du paragraphe, c'est que le Communisme avait prévu que le Christianisme s'écroulerait, et qu'en réalité c'est lui qui s'est écroulé (avec des explications historiques expliquant sa chute). Les idées sont imbriquées l'une dans l'autre, parce que le Christianisme a contribué à ce déclin. La phrase que je cite correspond à la fin de ce paragraphe (peut-être une phrase conclusive axée sur le Communisme, du style "Ainsi le Communisme a-t-il subi le destin qu'il réservait aux églises.") Mais je ne comprends toujours pas trop l'usage du "for one". Peut-être y a-t-il un lien avec la phrase que je cite avant, # 4.


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## Itisi

Je persiste et signe (voir #11 et  15). La traduction que tu suggères escamote l'idée de ''verdict'...

Quant à 'for one', il s'agit de décider d'après tout le reste du contexte si ça se rapporte à ce qui vient avant ou à ce qui vient après dans la phrase...


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## Fantaghiro

"Ainsi le Communisme a-t-il subi le verdict qu'il réservait au destin des églises."

?

Pour le "for one", les phrases suivantes changent de sujet et n'apportent rien de plus.
Je reposte la phrase d'avant, que je peine à comprendre : "In sum, as world events seemed practically to conspire on the side of religious believers, the contrary idea of a religious "end of history" seemed less defensible than before."


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## Itisi

Fantaghiro said:


> "Ainsi le Communisme a-t-il subi le verdict  qu'il réservait au destin des églises."


 Ok, il y a maintenant le  mot 'verdict', mais à mon avis, cette phrase exprime un contresens.

Quant à 'for one', que penser ?


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## Fantaghiro

Je vois ce que tu veux dire, mais je n'arrive pas à trouver une façon de le dire correctement. Argh !


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## Itisi

Ce n'était pas si mal que ça, ce que j'avais mis comme explication à #11, non ?  En mettant 'en quelque sorte' au lieu de 'une sorte de' (et en omettant 'comme si etc', bien sûr). En tout cas, ce n'est pas pire que l'original... (Ce n'est pas pour fourguer ma marchandise...)


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## nodnol

*"Thus did the fate of Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on the fate of the churches."*

Straight away I thought of: en creux.

I'm only repeating what other have said, but since I got there by myself, perhaps I can say it in a way that some will find more clear:

You are designing a probe to land on a comet. I look at your design, say it is completely wrong, and decide that to prove I am right, I will build a probe with a landing system that is completely different from yours, which I hope will work brilliantly. I test mine, and it fails horribly. So, without your design ever having been tested, by showing that "the opposite" doesn't work, although (since we are talking philosophy) it would be a logical fallacy, I have provided what might look like confirmation that yours is right; by testing what seemed like the opposite, it might seem that I tested you design _en creux_.

"Ainsi un des effets du destin qu'a connu le comunisme était que l'on considerait que le communisme, par son propre échec, donnait en creux un verdict positif sur le destin des églises (sur le rôle que les églises devraient jouer)"

Of course, this is currently a guessing game, more context would be required. I make many assumptions about the subject of the passage (I would have made a different suggestion if I thought the text as a whole was more about religion than the failure of communism).


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## petit1

What do you mean with "en creux"?


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## nodnol

I meant it in its narrow sense, (as described on this thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1579148 . Quoting Chimel: <<"En creux" est une image proche de "en négatif" pour la photographie:  quand on fait un moulage ou certaines sculptures, la forme définitive de  l'oeuvre s'inscrit "en creux" (de manière inversée) dans le moule.  L'empreinte en creux peut donc être traduit comme "la trace inversée".>> )

To say it all again: Communism was anti-church. Communism was put to the test. Communism failed. This 'came to be taken' as showing that being anti-church brings failure, and therefore that being pro-church will bring success, because communism was the inverse, the opposite, the sole alternative etc of Catholicism. (I think it was clearer first time round.)

While I'm repeating myself, I'll say again, 

''Of course, this is currently a guessing game, more context would be  required. I make many assumptions about the subject of the passage (I  would have made a different suggestion if I thought the text as a whole  was more about religion than the failure of communism).''

And also perhaps, without further context, there wasn't a good reason for me to assume the second use of 'fate' referred to the future.

PS see also Lecture en creux http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=483831


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## petit1

Thank you for the explanation, nodnol.


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## nodnol

Oddly, I can't recall any specific occasion where I have seen or heard the phrase. I don't know where I picked it up. So my knowledge of how it is used could be lacking -- in fact it was, since I wasn't aware it is (apparently) also used in a much vaguer sense.

But the basic idea will be familiar to anyone who was successfully taught elementary algebra, and who remembers enough of it: if negative a equals negative fifteen, [ -a = -15 ] you can work out the value of (positive) a. -- But here it is a logical fallacy, because communism is not really the opposite of giving churches a significant influence over politics and public life  -- there are many alternatives to communism, many alternatives to Catholicism.
[...]


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## velisarius

More context is in order, I think. The sentence seems to be from _How the West Really Lost God, _by Mary Eberstadt. At the publisher's site:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how...d-mary-eberstadt/1114031237?ean=9781599473796 

they have helpfully provided an excerpt from the first chapter, with the relevant passage. (Scroll down to "read more".) The writer links the fall of Soviet Communism with the growing importance of the Catholic Church under Pope John Paul II, ending in a reversal of the predictions some had voiced about the triumph of Communist ideals over religious ones.


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## Itisi

The sentence is saying that the fact that communism, which had 'condemned' religion, was itself 'condemned' came to mean that the Church was in a sense 'acquitted/cleared', redeemed.


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## Fantaghiro

Merci pour toutes ces explications ! 

Donc si je comprends bien, on en revient au commentaire #11 !


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## Itisi

Fantaghiro said:


> Donc si je comprends bien, on en revient au commentaire #11 !


 Ben, c'est parce que c'est toujours moi qui reviens pour dire la même chose (en deux langues maintenant...)


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## nodnol

> The sentence is saying that the fact that communism, which had  'condemned' religion, was itself 'condemned' came to mean that the  Church was in a sense 'acquitted/cleared', redeemed.



Je suis tout à fait d'accord; pourtant, si "l'on" revient à #11, moi je n'ai pas vu de raison pour rejetter _en creux_. Ce qui ne dit pas que c'est forément la meilleure phrase; mais pour un texte qui emploie un langage assez peu commun, assez peu quotidien, assez académique alors - "_pace_, Matthew Arnold" je crois que ça pourrait tout à fait convenir ! (on a lu les autres fils sure "en creux?)

Donc j'ai vu l'extrait du texte de Mary Eberstadt disponible sur le site: je n'ai pas trouvé la citation en question, mais c'est bien le même sense que son "To many observers, the demise of the Communist governments served as a proxy of sorts for the endurance of God" dans le huitième paragraphe. -- "Proxy", un mot que j'aurais pu utiliser dans mon exemple de #22.

Je ne m'érige pas en authorité, mais je crois comprendre ce texte assez bien force d'avoir lu bien des textes similaires, avec un langage semblable. Je ne le trouve pas mal écrit, mais tout à fait typique, je ne peine pas à le comprendre !

En tout cas, merci,  le lien vers le texte originel sert à clarifier une autre chose: ce n'est pas de la philosophie mais de la théologie! (#1 "Contexte : philosophie").

PS Dans la même idée que_ en creux_ et je crois déjà mentionné sur les fils cités : *un verdict implicite* mais pour moi c'est simplifier le texte un peu trop. Si elle se souciat de se faire comprendre par tout le monde, elle se serait éxprimée autrement (_pace_, proxy, "reverse verdict"; là-dessus on peut se mettre d'accord, non? #3 "I agree that the sentence is a mess" #4 "it's unfortunately a real sentence taken from a real book, written in American by an American" #8 "Cependant je ne suis toujours pas certaine d'avoir compris le sens de cette phrase ampoulée."

Et je trouve Unce Bob plus fiable que moi seulement moins peristant ... je reviens alors à # 13 !


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## Itisi

If someone is judged guilt and the verdict is reversed, they are cleared; I don't see how 'en creux', or 'implicite' can fit in with that idea.


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## nodnol

> If someone is judged guilt and the verdict is reversed...


In that interpretation, I don't see any explanation for the particular wording: why not *'a reverse of the verdict'*? Too much else wouldn't fit; why "of sorts"?
But I think the best evidence I can offer, is the other quote I found:* To many observers, the demise of the Communist governments served as a proxy of sorts for the endurance of God* . If this means something different to the phrase in question, what does this phrase mean?

It is a style of writing I recognise; at times it seems the writer studiously avoid "saying it straight", perhaps because they fear that would betray the complexity of the subject, it would be less effective in stimulating the reader into asking their own questions, etc. ie. the difficulty seems deliberate


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## Chris' Spokesperson

Fantaghiro said:


> Here is the previous sentence, although I doubt it'll be of any help:  "In sum, as world events seemed practically to conspire on the side of  religious believers, the contrary idea of a religious "end of history"  seemed less defensible than before."
> 
> "Thus did the fate of Communism, for one, come to be taken as a reverse verdict of sorts on the fate of the churches."



Piece by piece:
Thus did X come to be taken as - On en est ainsi arrivé à comprendre X comme
for one - entre autres/pour n'en mentionner qu'un
reverse verdict of sorts - (voilà, en effet, ce qui est difficile et où il faut être un tant soit peu imaginatif je pense - d'ailleurs, le "of sorts" est même presque une admission de la part de l'auteur qu'il "invente" un concept ici) 
une espèce de verdict par ricochet

Donc, ma tentative, aidée par les idées d'autres membres : On en est ainsi arrivé à comprendre le sort du communisme, pour n'en mentionner qu'un, comme une espèce de verdict par ricochet sur le sort des églises.

A revoir par les francophones.


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## nodnol

_Now_ I see things differently. Just putting the two sentences together helped. I've abandoned my previous idea for a new one. I still find that the author moves from paradox to paradox: I think the idea is, belief in ''secularism'' (as epitomized by the idea of communism) was much weakened by the collapse of communism, and there were many signs that religion was looking strong, but for some, far from giving confidence that this meant a great future lay ahead for the churches, --that the growth of the church was the destination towards which history was headed, -- it made them think "if it is so easy for communism to fail, maybe we should stop imagining that we can build the church into something really big; perhaps there is no room for anything that big, perhaps anything that big is bound to fail." (In retrospect, it figures that the author was more paradoxical and less  mathematical than proposed in the explanation I offered. I might have trusted a philosopher to use 'reverse' to actually mean 'reverse, inverted', but apparently not this theologian; I was encouraged along my wrong path by the idea this was a philosopher, a friend of logic.)

Now "un verdict par ricochet sur" seems more suitable than any of my suggestions. 

My new reading solves my previous unease with 'fate'.

More context, and I might change my mind again...

(Because in my latest proposal it is "reverse" which appears badly chosen by the author; it is _not_ a reverse verdict, but the same verdict, which simply spreads, crosses over, without being changed into a mirror image...)


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## Mauricet

Pourquoi ne pas s'en tenir (comme Itisi le fait avec une persévérance que j'approuve et admire) au sens littéral et incontournable de _reverse verdict_ : un jugement contraire à un jugement précédent ??





> Donc, *ma* tentative, aidée par les idées d'autres membres : On en est ainsi arrivé à comprendre le sort du communisme, pour n'en mentionner qu'un, comme une espèce de *retournement du jugement de condamnation qui avait été porté* sur le sort des églises.


(Merci à Chris' Spokesperson #34 pour le _template_ ...)


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## Chris' Spokesperson

J'avais pensé à faire ça Mauricet... et au final je crois que tu as raison : parfois il faut simplement trancher le nœud !


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## velisarius

There were those who believed that the Cold War was a struggle between religion and anti-religious ideology, a struggle whose outcome was not at all certain. Since this struggle was seen as a kind of zero sum game, the collapse of Communism can be seen as a triumph for religion. 

The original sentence with its "reverse verdict" seems to me to be so confusing as to warrant a freer translation. I would paraphrase the sentence in question as: "Thus people came to see the fate (rise) of the churches as an inevitable consequence of, among other factors, the fate (collapse) of Communism."


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## Itisi

(PS - This may seem to be off topic, but it's to do with understanding the relevant phrase!)

But there's something I just don't understand: the sentence just before the sentence we are puzzling over seems to conclude that religions is not in a strong position: "in sum, as world events seemed practically to conspire on the side of  religious believers, the contrary idea of a religious "end of history"  seemed less defensible than before." I can't make head of tail of all this.  She seems to be sayign one thing one minute and the opposite the next ! And then, at the beginning of the next paragraph, religion is winning again...Arghhh, indeed! I wish those intellectuals would write so people could understand!


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## Chris' Spokesperson

Velisarius' paraphrasing is, I'm afraid, misleading, if not simply incorrect. The author is saying that Communism fell in part because religion did not die off, rather it rose up.

"In sum, as world events seemed practically to conspire* on the side of*   religious believers, the *contrary idea of a religious "end of history"* (i.e., Communism)  seemed less defensible than before." 
This sentence shows the rising strength of religion - there's no contradiction.


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## Itisi

I thought "a religious 'end of history'" meant that religion became_ the_ ideology, if that is the right word, for ever and ever, amen: "The *end of history* is a political and philosophical concept that  supposes that a particular political, economic, or social system may  develop that would constitute the end-point of humanity's sociocultural  evolution and the final form of human government." (Wikiepedia, where else.)


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## velisarius

Well Itisi (post 39), I had to read and re-read to make any sense of it. The sentence you refer to "in sum, as world events [...] less defensible than before" is saying that, as the fall of Communism in eastern Europe gathered momentum, it became even less likely that there would be an end of religion on the lines of the "End of History" (Fukuyama's phrase). 

At least that is how I read it. Her thesis seems to be that the gradual secularisation of western society is a myth; religion is winning out against anti-religious ideologies.


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## Chris' Spokesperson

Itisi said:


> I thought "a religious 'end of history'" meant that religion became_ the_ ideology, if that is the right word, for ever and ever, amen: "The *end of history* is a political and philosophical concept that  supposes that a particular political, economic, or social system may  develop that would constitute the end-point of humanity's sociocultural  evolution and the final form of human government." (Wikiepedia, where else.)



This is exactly correct... but in that sentence we are talking about the idea _contrary _to religion's becoming an "end of history" ideology. That contrary idea is the idea of communism.


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## Itisi

Chris' Spokesperson said:


> but in that sentence we are talking about the idea _contrary _to religion's becoming an "end of history" ideology. That contrary idea is the idea of communism.


 Aaaah! I see what you mean! So 'the contrary idea of a religious end of history' (which I thought must mean contrary to Communism) in fact means 'the idea contrary to religion's becoming and end of history ideology', ie Communism.  Well, the author couldn't have been less clear if she had tried  - or Isiti being dim?

I suppose the good news is that it hangs together after all...


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## Fantaghiro

Actually, the author keeps writing complicated sentences like that, which is really annoying. This sentence was a perfect example of how to get everyone confused.


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## Chris' Spokesperson

What needs to be clear, and for someone who is well versed in modern political philosophy (which, for my sins, I am), is that being considered "the end of history" is a _good _thing. Fukuyama thought it was just great that western democracy hailed in the end of history. So, religion taking over everything and thus becoming the "end of history" was an eventuality which Communism was very much contrary to... because Communism wanted to end history! (Also note, that using the term in this context is anachronic... Fukuyama wrote his book in the early 90s, but anyway - as you have seen - clarity is not the principal concern of this author and Isiti is certainly not being dim, rather she is wantonly being left in the dark by a pretentious author!)


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## nodnol

Fully in agreement regarding the End of History.

I think I've said all I have to say, but I'll perhaps tarry to make one thing more explicit: so far, I would be less inclined to place Eberstadt in company with an influential intellectual elite, but place her closer to another group, with which I have at least as much experience, namely a clique of academics whose work has little or no standing outside their own very small field; care to read an essay using a C19 short story as a starting point to explore and reflect upon Jacques Lacan's work on mimetic desire? [edit. ie. it is not merely technical, aimed only at academics and students interested in that short story, but it will be ignored by most students and academics since they won't subscribe to the the writer's approach] 

That's merely my hunch, and I've stated it in a rather extreme way; for more nuance from people who are better informed than myself, you may want to look at the reviews her books receive on Amazon.co.uk. They are mixed, but a *negative* one for a previous book is entitled "_well intended_ but poorly argued" and begins "Let me make one thing clear from the outset:_ I am extremely sympathetic_  to the idea that the sexual revolution has had some truly appalling  consequences, and it is responsible for a lot of pain and suffering in  the modern western world, especially among the weakest members of  society. Furthermore, as a very devout Catholic..." And from the *positive* review for the book in question "This is a very well argued and challenging book._ Can' say I agree with the basis thesis though_....a great read and _some_ good material. " - (and the title of that review was, _"Well written and very enjoyable read"_)


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