# FR: Comme le voulait sa mère



## mollyjane

J'ai une question sur la phrase, "Comme le voulait sa mère, il commence des études de Droit..."  Je ne comprends pas pourquoi c'est "comme LE voulait sa mère."  Si on traduisait cette phrase littéralement en anglais elle serait: "As his mother wanted it, he began to study law."  Est-ce qu'il y a un règle pour quand on doit mettre cet pronombre auprès d'un sujet et verbe qui precède une proposition?  Par exemple, si je voulais dire, "As I said, I will come tomorrow," devrais-je dire toujours et sans exception, "Comme je l'ai dit, je viendrai demain"?


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## franglophile

Yes, the definite article is used exactly this way in French and much less often in English.

Just another example:

Comme la grille des émissions l'avait promis, l'émission de nouvelles a commencée à cinq heures.

The impersonal definite article just ties the object more tightly to each clause in the sentence.  

I'm not a Francophone but I've seen the article used so often this way that I'm sure about it.


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## etrange_etranger

Don't take translations literal, if you convert each english word into french and keep them in the exact same order you'll be lucky to make any sense at all, it would be the equivolent to using google to translate your sentence for you. So, if you translate your 'Comme le voulait sa mère, il commence des études de Droit....' it would, instead of being 'As his mother wanted it' it would be 'Like his mother wanted'. Hope that helped.


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## mollyjane

Thanks, franglophile.  And yes, I certainly don't make a habit of trying to translate things word for word.  I guess my point in translating it that way, and my general question is, when do I need to add that pronoun to a phrase about what someone said/promised/wanted?  Do you need to use it always in such situations?  Is it ever optional?  Or is there a list of verbs with which it must always be used?


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## etrange_etranger

I'm sorry, it just comes natural for me to use those words when i speak in french : / we were brainwashed at a young age so that it makes sense to us. You should ask a french teacher how they teach students to know that.


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## mollyjane

So, do you use that article all the time in such cases, like "As I said..." or "Like she told you..." or "As he promised..." or can you think of any times when you might use such a phrase without the "le"?


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## namyls

It's difficult to find an exhaustive list of verbs with which you should use the pronoun or not. It's only by hearing french people speaking that you'll get used to the expressions. Don't learn such rules by heart if you want my opinion, there would be too many exceptions. Or if you have to learn one, remember that french people put pronouns everywhere 

Most of the time, it's NOT optional. If it is, it probably changes the meaning.

Examples : 

"Je ne comprends rien" - "Je n'*y* comprends rien" : Both forms are correct, but in the second case, you specify that you understand nothing about what you've just talked about.
"Allons-*y* !" : the _y_ is mandatory here.
"Je n'*en* crois pas mes yeux" (i don't believe my eyes) : compulsory.


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## etrange_etranger

As i said = Comme je l'ai dit. Like she told you = Comme elle t'a dit. As he promised = Comme il a promis. If you want 'As he promised' to have le/la or t' in it, you would have to change it to 'Like he promised you' to have 'Comme il t'a promis' or 'He promised it' to have 'Il l'a promis'


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## etrange_etranger

I agree with Namyls, it probably just comes from listening to french people speak all day.


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## mollyjane

Thanks namlys... I assume the principle in those examples would also apply to the "le"... so it serves a similar function to "y" and "en."  (Forgive me, I suppose that should be obvious, huh!)


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## mollyjane

etrange_etranger said:


> As i said = Comme je l'ai dit. Like she told you = Comme elle t'a dit. As he promised = Comme il a promis. If you want 'As he promised' to have le/la or t' in it, you would have to change it to 'Like he promised you' to have 'Comme il t'a promis' or 'He promised it' to have 'Il l'a promis'



Well, now you're adding direct objection pronouns referring to the person, which wasn't the kind of pronoun I meant.  I guess I'm confused because up above franglophile posted this example: 

"Comme la grille des émissions l'avait promis, l'émission de nouvelles a commencée à cinq heures."

So is the "le" there a direct object pronoun referring to a person being spoken to?  I assume franglophile was trying to make an example like my original "comme le voulait sa mere..."  Is he or she wrong?  sorry if I'm being confusing!


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## namyls

> Comme la grille des émissions l'avait promis, l'émission de nouvelles a commencée à cinq heures.


*

L'* reffers to _l'émission de nouvelles a commencé à cinq heures.
_Why ? Because "L'" is a direct object pronoun. So "the tv program promised what ? => that it would start at 5" 


> Comme le voulait sa mère, il commence des études de Droit.


_*LE*_ reffers to _il commence des études de Droit_.
Why ? Because "LE" is a direct object pronoun. So "his mother wanted what ? => that he starts to study Law"

As you can see, in those two cases, it reffers to the whole part of the main sentence.

Is it a clearer ?


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## mollyjane

Yes, it's a whole lot clearer now!  Merci beaucoup - tu pourrais etre un prof de grammaire!


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## ChiMike

Grevisse, _Le Bon Usage, _paragraph 479, tells us that the "pronom neutre" "le" as direct object is frequently omitted in comparative statements with very common verbs such as _dire, faire, pouvoir _and_ savoir_.
It is also sometimes omitted in temporal or comparative statements with _pouvoir _and _vouloir_.

He adds:
"On observera que, dans tous ces cas, le pronom neutre _le, _objet, raparaît dès qu'on veut insister sur l'idée ou souligner l'expression: ..._comme vous LE dites, ...plus qu'il ne L'aurait fait ...quand vous LE pourrez, je ne LE pense pas, etc."_

For us non-francophones, it's almost always better to include it, because it is often required, except, perhaps, in negative expressions of opinion when one doesn't want to insist too much: "je ne pense pas" "je ne crois pas". If you want to be definite and insistant: "je ne le pense pas" etc.


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## mollyjane

Thanks ChiMike, that's very helpful.


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