# "Small" in Romance languages



## Testing1234567

We have:
- French "petit" /pəˈti/ < Old French "petit" /pəˈtit/
- Catalan "petit" /pəˈtit/ or /peˈtit/
- Spanish "pequeño" /peˈkeɲo/
- Portuguese "pequeno" /pɪˈkenʊ/ < Old Portuguese "pequeno" /peˈkeno/ ?
- Istriot "peîcio" /pɛjt͡ʃio/ ?
- Occitan "pichon" /piˈt͡ʃu/ ?
- Romansch "pitschen" /ˈpit͡ʃən/ ?
- Dalmatian "pedlo" /ˈpedlə/ ?
- Italian "piccolo" /ˈpikkolo/

They correspond to not any Latin words, yet some of them seem to have a common origin.

Where exactly do they come from?


----------



## Nino83

It seems it is not a Latin word. 
_Pittus, pitinnus ( > peccuinus)_, it seems to be Celtic. 

http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/petit 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pequeño 

For the Italian _piccolo_ (and Romanian _pic_) there is an alternative explanation, from _picco_ 

http://etimo.it/?term=piccolo&find=Cerca 

The origin is uncertain.


----------



## Riverplatense

I think it's a typical case of more or less concrete words substituting others with less clear etymology or «abstract appearance».

Bec (_Manuel Pratique de Philologie Roman_) brings together _petit_, _piccolo_, _pici _(Rom.), and _pequeño _with the concept of ›small child‹. Devoto (_Avviamento alla etimologia italiana_) gives _picca _›pique‹ → _piccolo_, so it's another metaphoric derivation. I guess _pićen _and derivations may be related to _piccino _← _piccolo_.

There are a lot of other dialectal forms, too. And, as Latin words are concerned, we also have Sardinian _minore_/_minoreɖɖu, _but also _piticu._


----------



## Ben Jamin

Strangely enough "pikku" means "little" in Finnish.


----------



## Nino83

In this link it is said: 



> Uralian etymologies are also possible for the following words: – in Celtic languages: Gael. suil “eye” – cf. Fin. silmä “idem”; Gael. bec, Welsh bach “little” (It. piccolo?) – cf. Fin. pikku(inen) “id”


----------



## Penyafort

Another root is *tʃikk-*, widespread in Iberia, probably onomatopoeic in origin, or maybe from Latin ciccum 'worthless thing'. It is particularly used, with the meaning of 'small', in Aragonese (*chiquet */ *chicot*) and Western Catalan (*xic */* xiquet */ *xicotet*), but also in Spanish, Asturian and Galician-Portuguese (*chico *_and derived_), even in Basque (*txiki*). In Spanish, specially in Spain, *chico *and *chica *are nowadays mostly used with the meaning of 'boy' and 'girl'. In Catalan, *un xic *can mean 'a little'. Same in Gascon *un chic *and *chic a chic*.


----------



## Riverplatense

There's also _ziccu _in some Middle and South Italian dialects.


----------



## francisgranada

Ben Jamin said:


> ... "pikku" means "little" in Finnish.


In Italian there is also _pizzico _(though it doesn't mean _small_, rather "a little", "a bit", or something like this)

In Hungarian (among others) we have *pici *['pitsi] meaning "(very) small/little" and various derivates from this. According to etym. dictionaries, this word is of onomatopoeic origin.

So, my question is whether it isn't possible that (at least some of) the Romance words containing roots like _pic-, piz-, pich-, pec-, pit-, pet-, zic-, chic-, etc ..._ are also of (later) onomatopoeic origin, i.e. not necessarily coming from Latin (nor loanwords from other languages)?


----------



## Kevin Beach

Could they be early loan words from Germanic languages, e.g. bit/Bisschen?


----------



## curius

Don't early germanic loan words revolve around war, stealing, guarding?
'Small' might have been too much of a weakling word.


----------



## sotos

Greek     From a synecdoche of the measurement units πήχις and σπιθαμή. From πήχυς (pron. pIchis) we have "pichieos" (one pιchis long, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:alphabetic+letter=*p:entry+group=133:entry=phxuai=os ). Σπιθαμή (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:alphabetic+letter=*s111:entry+group=60:entry=spiqamh/ ) is an empirical unit, the length of a palm or the distance between the extented thumb and the pointer. It also πιθαμή (_pithami_) in modern Greek and is used figuratively for short people or things: "He is one _pithami_" (He is very short).
Compare to _pygmy_ http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pygmy


----------



## origumi

francisgranada said:


> In Hungarian (among others) we have *pici *['pitsi] meaning "(very) small/little" and various derivates from this.


Also in Yiddish, several variants like: pitsi, pitsele, pitskale.


----------



## frugnaglio

francisgranada said:


> In Italian there is also _pizzico _(though it doesn't mean _small_, rather "a little", "a bit", or something like this)



_Pizzico_ is “a pinch”, as in “a pinch of salt”: the amount of something you can hold between your forefinger and thumb. It has probably an onomatopoeic origin, and/or in common with this?



sotos said:


> Σπιθαμή is an empirical unit, the length of a palm or the distance between the extented thumb and the pointer.


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

*"- Romansch "pitschen" /ˈpit͡ʃən/ ?"*

Based on their words for small Romansch and Waloon seem the most Germanic influenced Romance languages looking-wise, or at least bare the most Germanic-influenced-looking word for small.


----------



## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> *"- Romansch "pitschen" /ˈpit͡ʃən/ ?"*
> 
> Based on their words for small Romansch and Waloon seem the most Germanic influenced Romance languages looking-wise, or at least bare the most Germanic-influenced-looking word for small.


Where do you see anything Germanic here?


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> Where do you see anything Germanic here?



Even though I have seen _sch-_ in Italian words, _-sch-_ could be argued has indeed 'looking' Germanic (to laymen) and also 'Germanicmost' of the Romance p-words for small.


----------



## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Even though I have seen _sch-_ in Italian words, _-sch-_ could be argued has indeed 'looking' Germanic (to laymen) and also 'Germanicmost' of the Romance p-words for small.


That is spelling, basically how a German would phonetically respell Italian. E.g. _hundred_, Italian _*c*ento _is spelled _*tsch*ent _in Rumantsch.


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

That I guess is why I misreckoned(?) it the most Germanic/Germanic-looking.


----------



## berndf

I see.


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

Ferpicloz and Picheln, French Romandy and 'German', and something to do with small, methinks.


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Testing1234567 said:


> We have:
> - French "petit" /pəˈti/ < Old French "petit" /pəˈtit/
> - Catalan "petit" /pəˈtit/ or /peˈtit/
> - Spanish "pequeño" /peˈkeɲo/
> - Portuguese "pequeno" /pɪˈkenʊ/ < Old Portuguese "pequeno" /peˈkeno/ ?
> - Istriot "peîcio" /pɛjt͡ʃio/ ?
> - Occitan "pichon" /piˈt͡ʃu/ ?
> - Romansch "pitschen" /ˈpit͡ʃən/ ?
> - Dalmatian "pedlo" /ˈpedlə/ ?
> - Italian "piccolo" /ˈpikkolo/
> 
> They correspond to not any Latin words, yet some of them seem to have a common origin.
> 
> Where exactly do they come from?



northern Sardinian (Logudorese) = "minore"; as synonymous it's also used "minudu"; Minudu also means "coin"; it was a little coin used in XIVth, XVth centuries
southern Sardinian (Campidanese) = "piticcu, pichiccu"

while "big" is : "mannu"; as synonymous of mannu it's also used "maduru"


----------



## olaszinho

In Italian we also have "piccino", mainly used in Tuscany,  but it is an Italian word.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Penyafort said:


> Another root is *tʃikk-*, widespread in Iberia, probably onomatopoeic in origin, or maybe from Latin ciccum 'worthless thing'. It is particularly used, with the meaning of 'small', in Aragonese (*chiquet */ *chicot*) and Western Catalan (*xic */* xiquet */ *xicotet*), but also in Spanish, Asturian and Galician-Portuguese (*chico *_and derived_), even in Basque (*txiki*). In Spanish, specially in Spain, *chico *and *chica *are nowadays mostly used with the meaning of 'boy' and 'girl'. In Catalan, *un xic *can mean 'a little'. Same in Gascon *un chic *and *chic a chic*.


Not to forget the genuine Catalan words for boyfriend & girlfriend: xicot & xicota.



Sardokan1.0 said:


> northern Sardinian (Logudorese) = "minore"; as synonymous it's also used "minudu"; Minudu also means "coin"; it was a little coin used in XIVth, XVth centuries
> southern Sardinian (Campidanese) = "piticcu, pichiccu"
> 
> while "big" is : "mannu"; as synonymous of mannu it's also used "maduru"



That one reminds me of the menino & menina, that, depending on the context, can mean either little / young boy / girl, or a young lady at a noble court.
I'm wondering whether nen, nena or niño, niña are short forms of that one.


----------



## Pugnator

On neapolitan is "Piccerillo". -illo (in this case with the adding of an infix -r) is the suffix of the diminuitive.  Anyway most of etymologist think it come from an  indo-european root _*pik- . _ Anyway, thinking about the italian form "Piccolo" Mahn and Diez think it come from "picco" with the original meaning of "little point".


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Pugnator said:


> On neapolitan is "Piccerillo". -illo (in this case with the adding of an infix -r) is the suffix of the diminuitive.  Anyway most of etymologist think it come from an  indo-european root _*pik- . _ Anyway, thinking about the italian form "Piccolo" Mahn and Diez think it come from "picco" with the original meaning of "little point".



I was thinking about "Piccolo" and this possible meaning of "little point", in Sardinian there is "bìcculu" = a piece, a fragment, a morsel of something; maybe it's also related to the verbs "biccare" (beccare), "bicculare" (becchettare)


----------



## bearded

> Romansch 'Pitschen'


berndf said:


> Where do you see anything Germanic here?


Is it a sure thing that 'pitschen' is a cognate of Italian 'piccino' and not derived from German _Bisschen? _I am thinking e.g. of Bavarian pronunciation of _Bisschen _sounding ''pisschen''...


----------



## berndf

bearded man said:


> I am thinking e.g. of Bavarian pronunciation of _Bisschen _sounding ''pisschen''...


There is no Bavarian word sounding like _pisschen_ and even less so a word sounding like _pitschen_. There is only a Bavarian word _bisserl_. Nor do any Swiss German dialects contain a word that even remotely sounds like _pitschen._The _-chen_ diminutive doesn't occur in any Upper German dialect.


----------



## bearded

Thank you, berndf. I actually had written 'Bavarian _pronunciation', _not dialect. I mean, when people having a Bavarian accent pronounce standard-German words like _bitte, Bisschen.. _a foreign ear often perceives those like pitte, pisschen...
But my surmise, that the Romansh word had something to do with that, is certainly wrong.


----------



## Nino83

In Sicilian there is _picciriddu_ (similar to the Neapolitan _piccerillo_).


----------



## guihenning

Portuguese has 'pitada' (pinch) and informally pitico/pititico (small, very small) — though I can't find attested forms of the latter — but they exist and every Brazilian understands its meaning.


----------



## irinet

In my language, _pici _refers_ to a _young boy, while _pic_ to 'little something'. The former is supposed to come from Turkish, and the latter from German.


----------



## Sardokan1.0

irinet said:


> In my language, _pici _refers_ to a _young boy, while _pic_ to 'little something'. The former is supposed to come from Turkish, and the latter from German.



they sound similar to the Italian *piccino *(little child), also like Sardinian *pitzinnu *(child), both of them come from Latin *pisinnus *(child)


----------



## heterônimo

As a side note, the Portuguese word _pequenino_/_pequeno_ (little, tiny) was borrowed into the vocabulary of a large number of Atlantic societies due to Portuguese dominance over the slave trade.
_
see_ English slur pickaninny, Afrikaans slur piccanin, Sranan Tongo pikin, Krio pikin, etc.

Interestingly enough, in Creoles these words aren't classified as slurs, simply meaning 'small kid'.


----------

