# me duceret, id narranti



## Vladimir Nimčević

I found this passage in a document (it is the interrogation of 18yo Ivan Mali accused of defloration of a 10yo girl) from Historical Archive of Subotica. ) I am eager to know is "duceret, id narranti" some kind of construction?

"Since the same girl made him do it by saying: "The bricklayer asked me if I had a good vessel", she made me talk about it." Is this a correct translation?

Siquidem ipsa pupulla ad id induxerit dicendo me murarius interrogavit utrum bonum vas haberem, me duceret, id narranti, et fatens dixit utrum habeat, illa vero reposuisset, ut fatens probaret, ad quod reposuit cras in praedio Nagy-Feny probabimus, itaque sequenti die venientes ad praedium modo dictum Nagy Feny iverat fatens ad unam vallem dicens ad pupullam ut post ipsum cultrum foret, quo nasturcium effoderet, quod allato caepit per manum pupullam, et depressit, dum autem pupulla observasset e suo pudicitiae vase sanguinem promanare coepit clamare, ad cujus clamorem eandem dimissit.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Here is the source )

http://i68.tinypic.com/vopwg5.jpg


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## Scholiast

salvete amici

Intriguing bit of social history. I have to confess that I have not yet been able to make complete sense of the text, because some of the language seems legally formulaic (the repeated use of _Fatens_ for example), the punctuation is a bit erratic, and partly because some of the vocabulary appears to carry senses alien to classical usage (I don't understand _reposuisset_, _reposuit_ for example).

But I thought it might be helpful to transcribe the text again for others to consider, because I think there were one or two misreadings in the version Vladimir gave us in #1.

R.[esponsum] Siquidem ipsa Pupulla ad id indu-
xerit. Dicendo: me murarius inte-
rrogavit utrum Bonum Vas
haberem, me duceret, id narranti
et Fatens Dixit utrum habeat, illa                    (5)
vero reposuisset, ut Fatens probaret
id quod reposuit Cras in Praedio Nagy
Fény probabimus, itaque Sequenti Die
venientes ad Praedium modo dictum
Nagy Fény iverat Fatens ad Unam                 (10)
Vallem dicens ad Pupullam ut post ipsum
Cultrum ferret, quo nasturcium
effoderet, quo allato caepit per manum
Pupullam, et Depressit, dum autem Pu-
pulla observasset e suo pudicitiae Vase         (15)
Sanguinem promanare coepit clamare,
ad Cujus clamorem tandem dimissit.

I can make sense of lines 8 to the end. But that's not what Vladimir was asking. Further thoughts anyone?

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Thank you for answering my question 

In this context repono means "to answer". He asked her to show him her _thing_. According to her, she said - no way.

On the bottom of the document it reads

Interogans eandem? visare ut nunc vulvam tuam probem, cui puella reposuit nequaquam; ille tamen
aditio haec infigura judcy apposita est
Per infrascriptum judlium


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more


Vladimir Nimčević said:


> On the bottom of the document it reads
> 
> Interogans eandem? visare ut nunc vulvam tuam probem, cui puella reposuit nequaquam; ille tamen
> aditio haec infigura judcy apposita est
> Per infrascriptum judlium



Looking at Vladimir's facsimile again, this is what I arrive at by way of transcription:

interrogans eandem, visne ut nunc vulvam
tuam probem, cui puella reposuit nequa-
quad, ille tamen

[which can be translated as, "asking the same girl, 'are you willing now for me to try out your genitalia?', to this the girl replied 'No way', he nevertheless...." and the sense is incomplete]

aditio haec in figura Judicii apposita est
per infrascriptum Judicium [followed by an illegible signature]

["this supplement in the record of the court has been added in
by the undermentioned Court-office...]​
This is clearly a supplementary note by a court-official, designed to illuminate or amplify the main text relating to the testimony and statements presented to the court, on the right-hand side of the page. I think this means that before threatening his victim with the knife, he asked for sex with her, but she refused. Only then did he become violent.

I am still puzzled by the language of the first half of the main narrative, but the absence of quotation-marks may supply a clue. if we could start to disentangle "Direct speech" (as, for example, suggested by _probabimus_, and clear enough in "_visne ut nunc vulvam tuam probem?_") from "Indirect" (e.g. _dicens ad pupullam ut cultrum ferret_, "...saying to the girl that he was holding a knife behind his back...") we might get a little nearer to unravelling the sense of the whole.

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

I think that culter is a euphemism of "phallus" , cause we know from here that he said to her "ut post ipsum Cultrum ferret, quo nasturcium effoderet". Nasturcium is a euphemism, not a flower in the literal sense. In other document you will find that he "primo verbis blanditiosis ad se venturam aliciens", "quod... a fatente (i. e. from her) cultrum pro nasturcio effodiendo petierit", "petitum cultrum eidem efferet et porrigeret". Therefore, culter simply cannot mean a knife. She too made a statement to the court

Magdalena annorum circiter 10cem Catholica isthic residentis Josephi Mamusics filiolla de sibi vi illata examinata fassa est, quod die 10ma modo labentis mensis July famulus eorundem Ivan nominatus in praedio Nagy-Feny nuncupato existens a fatente cultrum pro nasturcio effodiendo petierit, dum autem fetens petitum cultrum eidem efferet, et porrigeret, eam per manum arripiendo depresserit, postquam vero fatens dolores sensisset, et sanguinem e vase pudititiae promanare advertisset, coepit clamare, ad cujus clamorem praeattactus famulus Ivan fatentem dimisit, qua dimissa ad parentes in proximitate laborantes semet recepit.


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more

I see (# 6). Sorry for being naive about those euphemisms.

Am I right then in supposing that _Fatens_ is the person being questioned or interviewed or giving a statement?

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Thank you for answering me 

Yes, yes. Fatens could be a victim or a guilty one, it depends on the context.


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## Scholiast

Well now, I am coming back to my remarks about punctuation and segregating who the respective people are.

If this is a report of the interrogation of the accused, then two or three things seem to follow.

First, _siquidem ipsa pupulla ad id _[the offence] _induxerit_ is a question put to him: he was asked whether she had personally led him on, or encouraged him.
"_me murarius interrogavit utrum Bonum Vas haberem, me duceret_" is part of what the defendant's interrogator quotes her as having said under questioning as the victim of the alleged crime, inviting the accused to react to this.
_Fatens dixit utrum habeat, illa vero reposuisset, ut Fatens probaret_ represents the accused's reply: he admits that he had indeed asked the lewd question, but goes on to claim that she had replied, that he might indeed "try it on with her". To which he replied to her (he said), _"cras in praedio...probabimus"_: "We'll give it a go tomorrow on the Nagy Fény estate."
_itaque sequenti die venientes ad Praedium modo dictum_ is the interrogator's explanation that there was indeed a rendezvous at the aforementioned estate, and as far as I can see, the rest is that same interrogator's (or perhaps better, "investigator"s) account of what then took place there.

This still leaves _id narranti_ unexplained. My impression now is that it is grammatically dependent on _et Fatens dixit_: in which case, it means "to the one telling [i.e. the investigator] him [the accused] her side of the story, he admits asking the lewd question, but goes on to claim that she had indicated willingness."

Does this construal make sense to others?

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

I think that you are not far from the correct interpretation of the text  but I still wonder what she meant by saying _me murarius interrogavit utrum Bonum Vas haberem, me duceret? _What is the function of the word duceret in this sentence?

Thank you for convincing me that id narranti goes with et Fatens dixit.  I actually havent thought about it.


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## Scholiast

Dear Vladimir

I do not know whether this is remotely relevant, but already in Classical Latin, one of the commonest senses of _ducere_ is "to take a wife", that is, "take her home", marry her. This is polite and standard usage. But there are examples in L&S of a less savoury extension of this, in the sense of "taking" a prostitute, or seducing a girl whom the man has no honourable intention of marrying—of "leading" her, in other words, astray. In antiquity, this appears to be mainly a vulgar linguistic usage. But many vulgar usages persist in the Romance languages, long after what was classically acceptable has perished.

It is of course doubtful that the 18th-century lawyers of Subotica would have been so versed in Latin philology as to know this. But I am moved to wonder nevertheless whether, in the contemporary vernacular of the region, there might have been a similar word or turn of phrase, for which _ducere_ was the most obvious and accessible Latin word, when the authorities had to use Latin for official or judicial purposes.

A similar (now rather outdated) turn of phrase in English would be "to take" a woman or girl, whether in the sense of gentle persuasion/seduction, or with the use of more unpleasant, even violent, methods.

If my suspicion is right, she, the victim, said to the investigating officer, "The bricklayer asked whether I had a nice fanny, and might 'take' her"—in the last-mentioned English sense.

What do you think?

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Again, I think that you are not far from the truth  As you said in one of your posts, the text is full of forms that are alien to classical Latin.

I have thought about the meaning you mention - to take a wife or something alike, but I do not see "ut" between the words _haberem _and _me duceret _where we expect to find the one.


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## Scholiast

In my latest suggestion, u_trum _would grammatically govern both subjunctive verbs. Admittedly, the first syntactically is part of an indirect question, the second more of a deliberative request; but again I am moved to doubt whether a local official (dealing with an immature and obviously distressed witness) would have syntactical niceties at the forefront of his mind—and she certainly wouldn't.

I'd like to know what if any overlap exists between Latin syntax and—is it—Serbo-Croatian.

Best I can do, for the moment. This has been a fascinating challenge.

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Your explanations are more than illuminating. They are illustrative. A perfect example of good interpretation. If you ask me, you could write a morphological and syntactic analysis of these texts  I must cite this discussion in my article.

The Serbo-Croatian language speakers use the words "da li" when they ask something and "kako bi", "da bi" (in order to, so that might/can/may) when they express some intention.

Zidar me je pitao da li imam dobru posudu da bi me uzeo za ženu. / The bricklayer asked me if I had a good vessel so that he might take me as his wife.


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## Scholiast

Dear Vladimir

Thank you for your complimentary remarks (# 14). How interesting that this is all in preparation of an article—what's the main purpose of said article, please?

I confess that though I think between us we have unravelled most of the sense, there is one phrase that still puzzles me, namely _ad Unam Vallem_ in ll. 10-11 of my transcription. Is this a particular spot within the Nagy Fény estate? And connected with that, and going back to the original MS, do you think that _post ipsum_ could/should be read _post ips*a*m_, and refer to this valley (if that is what it is)? But if so, what would "behind the valley" mean? I think the general idea is that he is suggesting a secluded and private place for the "deed", but would welcome your further thoughts.

Σ

Edited afterthought: correct me if I am wrong, but "Nagy Fény" looks to me more a Hungarian name than Slavic, and I know that in the 18th century the Austrian-Hungarian Empire extended into great parts of Serbia and Croatia. At this period, what would have been the _lingua franca_ of the Subotica district?


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Don't mention it ) You deserve it. 

I want to write a contribution to the love life in 18th-century Subotica. I wrote a concept but it is in Serbo-Croatian with several Latin citations. I am certain it will be published in some of local magazines. 

I think that ipum is related to cultrum, not to possesionem or to vallem. Praedio is some kind village, but we translate it into Serbian as _pustara _(literary desert, wold, heath). I still don't know why is that so.

http://i68.tinypic.com/3525i5u.jpg

Here is her statement to the court. Again, it is not authentic, but paraphrased. 

At this period the official language of Subotica district was Latin, but from the second half of 18 century to the end of the Great War it was the Hungarian. Although sources mention this estate in Hungarian form, it is not a proof that this estate was inhabited by ethnic Hungarians. The Slavic form of Nagy Feny is Žednik, which literary means "a thirsty one". It is interesting to me that the words eros and Žednik are semantically related, since eros could mean any kind of desire or need, including the thirst.


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## Scholiast

Dear Vladimir

Interesting—


Vladimir Nimčević said:


> from the second half of 18 century


 Hungarian was the region's official language.
This arouses my curiosity even further!

(1) As the case of Ivan Mali arose in 1749, was this before or after Hungarian had supplanted Latin as the "official" language of Subotica?
(2) I find it hard to believe that (even if Latin was "official' before its replacement by Hungarian), it would have been the vernacular for most of the population: the situation might resemble that of the subject peoples of the Hellenistic kingdoms in antiquity, where a ruling Greek-speaking officialdom failed to displace vernacular tongues anywhere.
(3) As the official language of Subotica was Latin, it is likely that persons of even quite modest social station would have been able to speak some, even if they were speaking a slavic vernacular, had no schooling, or were even wholly illiterate (like many minions of the Hellenistic realms mentioned in (2)).
(4) Legal practice and language (and lawyers!) tend by nature to be conservative in thought and practice. And both in (Catholic) Croatia and under (Catholic) Hungarian political control, there would have been little reason or pressure for Latin to be ousted from its use in judicial proceedings, at least for a generation of lawyers, judges, notaries, clerks, even teachers, to pass on.

And there's more that I want to ask, but I have imposed enough already.

Thank you, though, for explaining your purpose with the article. You are certainly devoting a lot of academic attention to it, and of course I am happy to assist in any way I can.

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Sorry for not answering in time.

Yes, it was. ) Hungarian was indeed the official language of Bačka district, even though it wasn't the mother tongue of a great part of the local population (Serbs, Bunjevci, Šokci, Slovaks, Ruthenians etc.).

The use of Hungarian orthography and name forms are merely of historical (i. e. archaical) and juridical nature, it doesn't imply that the place written in that manner were Hungarian. Some name places in the vicinity of Subotica had been known since the medieval ages and therefore a 18-century Subotica jurist had to use the historical forms so that everyone might know what he had in mind when he wrote Nagy Feny for example. The place I mentioned was at 18 century populated mostly by Slavs.

http://i65.tinypic.com/ofo787.jpg

This is the other page of the Magdalena Mamužić's statement. You see the names written at the bottom of the text. They were Hungarian administrative workers. And based on their surnames I think there weren't a part of the local population, but the newcomers from Transylvania and Northern Hungariy

Franciscus Bucsinsky Inclyti Bacsiensis Comitatus ordinarius
Judlium Michael Peresztegi praelibati I[nclyti] Comitatus Vice-Judlium

Again, I am happy I got my answer from somebody who knows a lot about classical languages and history. We lack that sort of people not only in Subotica, but in Serbia generally. Not everyone finds the 18-century documents amusing. )


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## Scholiast

Hello again Vladimir (and anyone else who is following this thread)

Even more fascinating. I am imagining, in microcosm, something comparable with the towns and districts of Asia Minor in antiquity, where a Greek-speaking ("Hungarian") ruling élite governs a demographic miscellany of languages and dialects (illustrated by the story of the glossolalia at Pentecost in _Acts of the Apostles_): but a majority at least of the townspeople whose mother-tongues would have been as various as you describe, would have had at least a smattering of Greek ("Latin"/"Hungarian") as a second language, in order to conduct business or deal where they had to with the authorities.

Incidentally, what you transcribe as "Judlium" in those signatures does not make sense to me. I've looked at the photo you supplied, and it seems to me there is a ligature over the middle part of its first appearance, and I surmise "Judicium", which would be a genitive plural: an O_rdinarius Judicium_ would be "One of the Order of Jurists", which in the context does seem appropriate. I'm still unsure about "Vice-????" at the end, but will look, and think, further.

Σ

Edit: having enlarged the image, I think the last word is also "Judicium": it is (for obvious reasons) in a different hand from the previous line, and on what looks like an "l" with a stroke through it, that stroke is also a ligature indicating a standard abbreviation—these were common in mediaeval and later Latin, especially for formulaic or commonly occurring words.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Yes. You may compare it with the situation in Asia Minor in antiquity. The only difference is that the Latin never was the vernacular language in Subotica. As for the Hungarian, it is still spoken and nonetheless it is in official use, even though the town of Subotica has been a part of Serbia since the end of the Great War. 

Judlium is a Hungarian coinage and it means judex nobilium. I understand you are surprised with the word. You have a right to be so. )

_With Humanism, Classical Latin entered secular life. From the middle of the 17th cent., one can speak, from a lexical point of view, of a Latin-Hungarian 'mixed language' used by the upper classes (with contractions such as judlium < judex nobilium 'noble judge'). Until the introduction of Hungarian as the official language in 1844, Latin was the language of the establishment (law, politics, religion, education, etc.) and also shaped the Hungarian literary language._

(source: Brill's New Pauly, Dem-Jus, 405)

I will send more images regarding this issue. 

http://i67.tinypic.com/2m6wxmc.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rqli6d.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/v3i1ox.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2agvngi.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/r73fac.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/34q9ymg.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/sd0i1x.jpg


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## Scholiast

Greetings again, Vladimir



Vladimir Nimčević said:


> The only difference is that the Latin never was the vernacular language in Subotica



That's rather what I meant about the status of Greek in Asia Minor, which was never truly vernacular away from the western fringes of the subcontinent: everyone had their mother-tongue (Elamite, Farsi, Lydian &c.) and many people in the urban centres particularly would have had _some_ Greek, though it sounds as if the position in Subotica was of a more extreme confinement of the language of officialdom to, well, "officials".

Thank you very much for putting me right about the contraction _Judlium_: that all makes sense now. How fascinating, this business of the "mixed" Latin-Hungarian. This perhaps sheds further light on the syntactical idiosyncrasies of the text with which you started this Thread, and no doubt others of the period too.

I shall very much enjoy looking at these further images you have supplied—this is all highly diverting, as well as—for me—instructive (and makes a pleasant change from drafting Latin mottoes for tattoos!).

Σ


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## Vladimir Nimčević

What I wanted do say is that the ruling elite in the eastern parts of Asia Minor at least knew their tongue as a mother one.  In Subotica, on the contrary, no one spoke Latin as mother tongue. It was a language learned in school and no more than that. Even a church service was held in vernacular languages, i. e. in Serbo-Croatian, Hungarian and German.

I will compress the images into RAR file. That way is easier 

Uploadfiles.io - ivan-mali.rar


I am glad you are interested in the 18-century Hungarian Latin tradition.


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