# Negative of 'used to'



## Phil-Olly

I've always been puzzled by the negative form of 'used to'.

Would members write:
'I didn't used to listen to the radio'
or
'I didn't use to listen to the radio'?

The first one seems illogical (c.f. I didn't use the computer this morning), but the second one looks wrong.

Your comments welcomed.


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## HistofEng

When talking in a very casual setting, I think I would say the first one, which indeed seems so odd when written down. 

Again, I can't say that I wouldn't say the first one in certain situations, but I don't know what I would say/write in a more formal setting


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## GreenWhiteBlue

The negative of "use" is "not use".

The negative of "used" is "not used".

Making a verb negative does _not_ change its tense.

It is always incorrect to say "_I *use* to do something_" In the simple past, the only correct form is "*used*". Notice, however, that adding "did" makes the tense the past emphatic tense, and not the simple past. The emphatic tenses are made through the use of an appropriate form of the verb "do" combined with the simple present of the verb in question. Thus, since the simple present of "use" is "use", whenever you make the tense emphatic -- whether present or past -- the correct form to choose is only "*use*", and not "used."

_I *used* to go to see them daily, but Mary never *used* to go with me._

_While I *did not use* to play tennis, I* did use* to play croquet._


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## dn88

THIS is interesting, and also THIS.


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## Cagey

Phil-Olly said:


> I've always been puzzled by the negative form of 'used to'.
> 
> Would members write:
> 'I didn't used to listen to the radio'
> or
> 'I didn't use to listen to the radio'?
> 
> The first one seems illogical (c.f. I didn't use the computer this morning), but the second one looks wrong.
> 
> Your comments welcomed.



Your question made me curious.  I didn't know the answer, so I looked around and found this source.  Apparently, your second version is correct according to the grammarians.  In positive statements "used to" is correct, with negative statements "use to" is what you want.

If your question is not about grammar rules, but about our actual usage, then I must confess that I used to avoid the construction because both sounded awkward to me.  But then, I didn't use to know the rule.

*dn88 *has submitted his helpful post while I was writing this, but I'll post this anyway.


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## Loob

Hi Phil_Olly

Personally, I avoid the negative of "used to", particularly in writing. I think we're in a transition period between an older "used not to" and a newer "didn't use to", and many people are confused as a result. 

I suspect that when people write "I didn't used to", they're trying to make clear that the sound involved is the [s] of "I used to..." rather than the [z] of "I didn't use it".

I've got no crystal ball; but I can't see "I didn't used to" winning the battle and becoming the accepted form. After all, it's "I walked / I didn't walk" - not "I didn't walked"....

But who knows??

Loob


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## dn88

As a matter of curiosity, *Cambridge* marks the following as a non-standard form:



> _NOT STANDARD He did use*d* to work there, didn't he?_


*used to*

 PS: Cagey, I know it looks deceptive, but I'm a "he" actually.


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## Porteño

I go along with loob. I find 'didn't use to' rather ugly, whereas 'used not to' sounds more elegant, at least to my ears. If my memory serves me right, at school, we were taught never to use 'didn't use to'. (but that's quite a while back!)


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## Avignonais

Porteno and Loob, 
So are you saying "used not to" is obsolete or old-fashioned? I still use it in written form, even if "didn't use to" rolls off the tongue more easily.


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## Forero

I say "didn't use to" or "used to not", depending on which I mean.  I don't say "used not to", since it would mean voicing the "sed".


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## Loob

Avignonais said:


> Porteno and Loob,
> So are you saying "used not to" is obsolete or old-fashioned? I still use it in written form, even if "didn't use to" rolls off the tongue more easily.


Obsolete: no.

Old-fashioned: not exactly, just falling into disuse. "Used not to" is still the form I would use if I had to put "used to" into the negative in writing. But I avoid doing so where possible.


			
				Forero said:
			
		

> I don't say "used not to", since it would mean voicing the "sed".


 
Hi, Forero: "used not to" has the unvoiced [s], just like "used to".

Loob


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## Elwintee

Loob said:


> Obsolete: no.
> 
> Old-fashioned: not exactly, just falling into disuse. "Used not to" is still the form I would use if I had to put "used to" into the negative in writing. But I avoid doing so where possible.
> 
> 
> Hi, Forero: "used not to" has the unvoiced [s], just like "used to".
> 
> Loob



 I agree with Loob.  I have no qualms about using "used not to".  This form is given as correct in Randolph Quirk's Universal Grammar of English (1973 edition), para 3.21. Quirk also states that the contracted negative is "usedn't to" but then, confusingly, gives "didn't use to" as an alternative to that!


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## Thomas Tompion

I've never felt so old as when this morning I read all these people writing that people don't say 'I used not to' and 'I usedn't to', and that the expression should be avoided like the Black Death. I, and lots of other people I know from Manchester, use both all the time, and we'd use them in preference to I didn't use to which I hardly ever hear. I never used to I regard as perfectly normal also, for what that's worth.

I was grateful for Loob and Elwintee's partial redressing of the balance.


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## The Slippery Slide

It's simple. It follows the usual rule.

"I used a pen"
"I didn't use a pen"

so

"I used to . . . "
"I didn't use to . . . "

And that's all there is to it.


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## Thomas Tompion

That's all there is to the verb form, Slippery Slide, but what about who uses which one when?


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## The Slippery Slide

I don't follow you!


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## Elwintee

Thomas Tompion said:


> I've never felt so old as when this morning I read all these people writing that people don't say 'I used not to' and 'I usedn't to', and that the expression should be avoided like the Black Death. I, and lots of other people I know from Manchester, use both all the time, and we'd use them in preference to I didn't use to which I hardly ever hear. I never used to I regard as perfectly normal also, for what that's worth.
> 
> I was grateful for Loob and Elwintee partial redressing of the balance.



I appreciate the comforting support.  By the way, I must apologise for making a mistake in the title of the book I referred to: it is Quirk's University Grammar of English - I'm getting sloppy in my old age!


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## Loob

The Slippery Slide said:


> It's simple. It follows the usual rule.
> 
> "I used a pen"
> "I didn't use a pen"
> 
> so
> 
> "I used to . . . "
> "I didn't use to . . . "
> 
> And that's all there is to it.


Simple, but not straightforward, The Slippery Slide.

Google hits:

"used not to": 209,000
"didn't used to": 292,000
"didn't use to": 134,000

Loob


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## Thomas Tompion

The Slippery Slide said:


> I don't follow you!


 
Hi Slippery Slide,

I was just pointing out that we have two discussions going on here:
1.  What are the correct forms? - the question you addressed, very helpfully.

2.  Which forms are used by whom when?


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## Loob

Pondering further, I think I see why people would opt for "didn't used to" over "didn't use to".

To form the negative past tense of an ordinary lexical verb, you'd use _did _+ _not_ + the bare infinitive.  Did + not + go, for example.

So to form the negative past tense of "used to", you write _did _+ _not_ + ......AAARGH: there's no infinitive! The only "to use" is a completely different verb, not even pronounced the same!

So what do you do?  You put down the only form available: "used". Did + not + used to...

I think I'll change my vote and say I think "didn't used to" will probably win the battle.  Not that I'll be around to know!


Loob


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## ayed

Hi, I just wonder of the following sentence:

If the following sentences work :
1.*He is used to going* to school everyday.
2. *He is not used to* going to school everyday.

What about the following :
*He(*was*) used to go to school everyday
*He(*was not*)used to go to school everyday
Any comment?


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## nzseries1

ayed said:


> Hi, I just wonder of the following sentence:
> 
> If the following sentences work :
> 1.*He is used to going* to school everyday.
> 2. *He is not used to* going to school everyday.
> then why don't the following do not work as well?
> *He(*was*) used to go to school everyday
> *He(*was not*)used to go to school everyday
> Any comment?


 
In the first two, "used to" means "has performed the action many times", and it is acceptable to say "not used to" to mean "has not performed the action many times".

In the second two, "used to" means "did in the past, but not any more". Using "was not" with this meaning of "used to" doesn't make sense, you have to say "did not".

The difference in the two groups of sentences is subtle, but important. Note the difference here:

*He used to go to school* - At one point he went to school, but now he doesn't.

*He is used to going to school* - He has been to school many times.


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## dn88

Yeah, in the first two "used to" means "accustomed to", familiar with something because of repeating the action many times.


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## Phil-Olly

Thanks to everyone for your contributions -

And to Loob especially for my confirming my suspicion that 'didn't used to' is not uncommon!


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## Thomas Tompion

Phil-Olly said:


> Thanks to everyone for your contributions -
> 
> And to Loob especially for my confirming my suspicion that 'didn't used to' is not uncommon!


292,000 people have committed this error in public, Phil.  I hope this doesn't mean you are going to add to their number.


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## verbivore

Formerly, I did not listen to the radio. = I used to not listen to the radio. _I didn't used to_ is wrong as far as I can tell, and _I didn't use to _(in contracted form) is less formal. *I used to not* / *I did not use to *are your solutions. In standard American dialect, the "d" goes unpronounced, so the spelling is not an issue. If writing I recommend _used to not._


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## Porteño

I have to disagree verbivore: it is not 'used to not' but rather 'used not to'.

I used not to listen to the radio.


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## Thomas Tompion

verbivore said:


> Formerly, I did not listen to the radio. = I used to not listen to the radio. _I didn't used to_ is wrong as far as I can tell, and _I didn't use to _(in contracted form) is less formal. *I used to not* / *I did not use to *are your solutions. In standard American dialect, the "d" goes unpronounced, so the spelling is not an issue. If writing I recommend _used to not._


 
There's a difference between

I didn't use to listen to the radio - I was not in the habit of listening.

and

I used to not listen to the radio - I was in the habit of not listening.


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## verbivore

Perhaps this is a difference in BE vs. AE. You would never hear _used not to _ici.


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## verbivore

Thomas Tompion said:


> There's a difference between
> 
> I didn't use to listen to the radio - I was not in the habit of listening.
> 
> and
> 
> I used to not listen to the radio - I was in the habit of not listening.


 

And what is this difference you speak of?


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## Porteño

verbivore said:


> Perhaps this is a difference in BE vs. AE. You would never hear _used not to _ici.


 
Could be. Your version sounds like a tongue-twister to my ear, I can barely pronounce it.

Thomas Tompson's difference is very subtle. Cool.


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## verbivore

There is no meaningful difference whatsoever, it's only a syntantical rearrangement. Do not be deluded. My original proposition (post 26), however, is also only one of syntax. There is no meaningful difference between _did not used to_ and _used to not/used not to_.


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## Porteño

In my view there is a meaningful difference insofar as Thomas Tompson's second example referred to a deliberate action of not listening to the radio, rather than a casual 'not being accustomed to' or 'following a habit'.


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## Porteño

I used not to listen to the radio (but I do now) - it was not my habit in the past.

I used to *not *listen to the radio - a deliberate action on my part and with no tacit implication that I do now, as in the above.


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## Thomas Tompion

> Originally Posted by *Thomas Tompion*
> There's a difference between
> 
> I didn't use to listen to the radio - I was not in the habit of listening.
> 
> and
> 
> I used to not listen to the radio - I was in the habit of not listening.





verbivore said:


> And what is this difference you speak of?


 
Are you saying you can't see a difference between I was not in the habit of listening and I was in the habit of not listening? If so, I think Porteño put it well when he described the one as a casual not being accustomed to listening and the other as a deliberate action of not listening to the radio.

It's the difference between just not doing something, and making a point of not doing it. If you meet a friend and don't notice her, that's very different from making a point of not noticing her.


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## Thomas Tompion

I'm sorry to see there are still people who think that I didn't used to listen is correct - would they really say I didn't stopped at the traffic lights?


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## Porteño

Not specifically at this moment, but I'll give it some thought. By itself, I guess there's no difference, but it might depending on the context.


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## rocstar

Hi:
 I totally agree with Thomas Tompion:
I'm from Mexico and I learned the correct form in the USA. I had American teachers, so I don't know why many of you get confused. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Phil-Olly* 

 
Thanks to everyone for your contributions -

And to Loob especially for my confirming my suspicion that 'didn't used to' is not uncommon!

*292,000 people have committed this error in public, Phil. I hope this doesn't mean you are going to add to their number*.

*I'm sorry to see there are still people who think that I didn't used to listen is correct - would they really say I didn't stopped at the traffic lights?*

Thomas Tompion.

Rocstar


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## panjandrum

After that short spammy flurry, it might be useful to try to pick out from this long thread, and linked threads (see earlier posts) what more reputable sources have to say on this topic.  the comments listed below are copied directly from the sources.

*Used not to* is called formal style 

*didn’t use to* is an informal style
_Practical English Usage_ Michael Swan 

 If something *used not to *be done or *used            not to* be the case, it was not done in the past or was not            the case in the past. The forms *did not use to* and            *did not used to* are also found, especially in spoken            English.
_The Collins COBUILD            English Dictionary_

 "He *usen’t to*            smoke" and "He *used not to* smoke" - preferred by many in British English,
 "He *didn’t            use to* smoke" and "He *didn’t used to*            smoke" used by both British English and American English speakers.
_A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language _Quirk et al. 

*used            to* may be formed without the auxiliary "do" as in            "You *used not to *smoke." 

*didn’t* is more commonly used to form negatives with            *used to*.
 We can avoid            the problem of the negative by using ‘never….’ ‘Fred *never used            to* be so difficult.’ "
_Longman English Grammar_ L. B. Alexander 

*didn't use to* is the negative of the idiom used to.
_The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. _Kenneth G. Wilson

... *used not to* is listed without comment,  *didn't use to*, *didn't used to*, are marked colloquial in the ...
_OED

_For questions and negative forms, two forms of the verb are used                -
I *didn't use to* take such a ...
I *didn't used to* take such a .._._
In a more formal style, ... although                these forms are less often used:
*I used not to like* contemporary dance, but now I do._
BBC Learning English  _Roger Woodham

we *used not to be* allowed to drink coffee.
We *didn't use to* go out much
_Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary_

When _do_ occurs with this form of _use_ in negative statements and in questions, the situation is reversed, and _use to_ (not _used to_) is correct: You *did not use to* play on that team. *Didn’t she use to* work for your company?_
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage._

I forgot to quote Fowler.
*used to* (less commonly and usually in colloquial contexts, *use to*) ...
(Only in very informal contexts) He *didn't use to* ... *didn't used to* be ....
(Now regarded as somewhat formal) You *usen't to be* ... The mistress *usedn't to* sleep ... He *used not to* ... 
_New Fowler's Modern English Usage_


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## nonois

Thecorrect  past tense form for this expression is "not being able to" Ex. _"I was not able to play the piano" v. "I used to play the piano" (_This implying that you had the ability to do something)
But, when it is related to a "_habit_", there is no negative form for it. The affirmative form is used when you quit doing it in a certain time in the past, and of course don´t do it any more in the present.


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## Thomas Tompion

Is this line correct, Panj.?

"He *usen’t to* smoke" and "He *used not to* smoke" - preferred by many in British English,

Don't you mean he *usedn't *to smoke?


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## panjandrum

ThomasT:





> "He *usen’t to* smoke" and "He *used not to* smoke" - preferred by many in British English,
> 
> Don't you mean he *usedn't *to smoke?


I was quoting directly from HERE
Others quoting from the same source use the same spelling, sometimes with _sic_.  We could all be wrong.


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## Thomas Tompion

panjandrum said:


> ThomasT:I was quoting directly from HERE
> Others quoting from the same source use the same spelling, sometimes with _sic_. We could all be wrong.


Thanks for the explanation.  I think he's copied it down wrong, don't you?

Here's someone who thinks the error is so important he puts it in capitals:

They *used to* sell pomegranates. 
*N* - ?They *used* _not_ *to* sell pomegranates. *I* - ?*Usedn't* _they_ *to* sell pomegranates? *C* - ?They *used not to* sell pomegranates and we *usedn't to* _[-]_ either. *E* - ?They *USEDn't to* sell pomegranates. http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/aspects/assets/sjt39/ModAux.html


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## panjandrum

Sorry, Thomas, but usen't is just as valid as usedn't in the OED's world.


> *c1863* T. TAYLOR in M. R. Booth _Eng. Plays of 19th Cent._ (1969) II. 96, I usen't to mind unkind looks and words much once. *
> 1907* G. B. SHAW _Major Barbara_ III. 255 That is a new accomplishment of Andrew's, by the way. He usent to drink. *
> 1929* ‘H. H. RICHARDSON’ _Ultima Thule_ III. v. 279 Usen't Richard to say that it was etiquette in the profession to treat a patient's relatives..as so many cretins?


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## Thomas Tompion

Thanks, Panj.  I suppose the fact that the d isn't pronounced has led it to be eroded in the written language.  I'm very surprised, and rather disappointed with the OED.

Here's another article on the issue:
http://www.uexpress.com/coveringthecourts/index.html?uc_full_date=20040229


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## Maryne

Phil-Olly said:


> I've always been puzzled by the negative form of 'used to'.
> 
> Would members write:
> 'I didn't used to listen to the radio'
> or
> 'I didn't use to listen to the radio'?
> 
> The first one seems illogical (c.f. I didn't use the computer this morning), but the second one looks wrong.
> 
> Your comments welcomed.


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## Maryne

Hi, When you say I used to listen to the radio , it already means that that action often happened in the past but  do not happen now. Negative usually goes with USED NOT TO. It will  be I used not to listen to the radio or I usedn't to listen to the radio.Good luck. Mary


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## Loob

Thomas Tompion said:


> Thanks, Panj. I suppose the fact that the d isn't pronounced has led it to be eroded in the written language. I'm very surprised, and rather disappointed with the OED.
> 
> Here's another article on the issue:
> http://www.uexpress.com/coveringthecourts/index.html?uc_full_date=20040229


Don't forget, TT, the OED is a *descriptive* dictionary, not a *prescriptive *one.

google hits for "usen't: 935
google hits for "usedn't": 652

Interesting article. I find it odd, though, that so many commentators don't distinguish between the ordinary lexical verb "to use" (pronounced with [z]); and the defective verb "used {to}" (pronounced with [s]) which has no infinitive, present tense, _-ing_ form etc.

I came across "I didn't used to" in an Ian McEwan novel this morning. I still think "didn't used to" is going to win the battle

Loob


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