# Persian-Urdu: chand with an izaafat



## Qureshpor

Can "chand" be the last component of an izaafat construction in Persian or Urdu?

e.g x-e-chand..

If it can, what does this "chand" mean?


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## eskandar

In Persian, I have seen چند at the end of a phrase to mean "a few", "several", or "some". For example:

هان ای پسر عزیز دلبند
بشنو ز پدر* نصیحتی چند*

O dear darling son, listen to *some advice* from your father
(Iraj Mirza)

However, if I am not mistaken, there is no ezaafe in this construction. (In other words, it is _nasihati chand_ and not _nasihati-e chand_). I can't recall ever hearing it specifically as part of an ezaafe (ie. _nasihati-e chand_ or _nasihat-e chand_ or whatever else), but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Let's see what those more knowledgeable than I have to say.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar SaaHib, thank you. I was aware of this construction where the noun (usually singular) has a majhuul ye attached to it and it is followed by chand..

e.g. payaame chand, gaame chand, jaame chand etc, and plural ayyaame chand.
What I am asking about is a noun followed by an izaafat and then "chand".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> eskandar SaaHib, thank you. I was aware of this construction where the noun (usually singular) has a majhuul ye attached to it and it is followed by chand..
> 
> e.g. payaame chand, gaame chand, jaame chand etc, and plural ayyaame chand.
> What I am asking about is a noun followed by an izaafat and then "chand".


In daily speech we always say these as _chand ayyaam_, _chand jaam_, _chand gaam_, _chand din, chand saal _etc. Always without the _ezaafat _even for Persian / Arabic word combinations, i.e. never _ayyaam-e-chand, gaam-e-chand. _Trying to recollect if ever I heard these in poetry. I can't seem to at the moment.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> In daily speech we always say these as _chand ayyaam_, _chand jaam_, _chand gaam_, _chand din, chand saal _etc. Always without the _ezaafat _even for Persian / Arabic word combinations, i.e. never _ayyaam-e-chand, gaam-e-chand. _Trying to recollect if ever I heard these in poetry. I can't seem to at the moment.


I am grateful for your response. The poet Khvaajah Miir Dard (1748-1810) has a famous Ghazal with the matla3..

tuhmat-i-chand apne zimme dhar chale
kis liye aa'e the ham, kyaa kar chale?

The general considered view is that the construction in the first line is indeed "tuhmat-i-chand" although one does also find "tumateN chand" . The question is this. Does one find this kind of construction in Persian? I can't seem to recall anything? Neither do I remember coming across anything like this in Urdu. The second question is, "What does tuhmat-i-chand mean"? One explanation is "tuhmat-i-chand (ashxaas) but I am not convinced with this theory. I am of the view that here "chand", if the construction actually is "tuhmat-i-chand" does not mean "a few/some" but "How much/many". But not in the interrogative sense, rather with an exclamatory meaning.

kitnoN kii tuhmat apne zimme dhar chale!
kis liye aa'e the ham, kyaa kar chale? 

The second line is more often than not..

jis liye aa'e the ham, so kar chale


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## UrduMedium

I'm not personally familiar with this, but OUD lists _dam-i-chand_

http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=51741

Edit: See also _nafas-i-chand_ http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=41232


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> I'm not personally familiar with this, but OUD lists _dam-i-chand_
> 
> http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=51741
> 
> Edit: See also _nafas-i-chand_ http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=41232


Thank you, UM SaaHib for the links. Somehow, this particular dictionary does not instil too much confidence, bearing in mind the frequency of errors one comes across.


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## Qureshpor

A couple of examples from Classical Persian. I would like to ask Persian knowing friends if they are reading an izaafat in these couplets before "chand".

بتیر و کمان و بگرز و کمند
بیفکند بردشت نخجیر چند
Firdausi

بزد خیمه گرد لب هیرمند
برآسود باخرمی روز چند
Asadi


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *UrduMedium*
> I'm not personally familiar with this, but OUD lists _dam-i-chand_
> 
> http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=51741
> 
> Edit: See also _nafas-i-chand_ http://www.clepk.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=41232
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, UM SaaHib for the links. Somehow, this particular dictionary does not instil too much confidence, bearing in mind the frequency of errors one comes across.
Click to expand...

 _dam-e-chand _is attested in my _nasiim-ul-luGhaat_! So we can say it is safe to use it although in everyday speech I must say I haven't heard it. Ideal for Urdu poetry!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> A couple of examples from Classical Persian. I would like to ask Persian knowing friends if they are reading an izaafat in these couplets before "chand".
> 
> بتیر و کمان و بگرز و کمند
> بیفکند بردشت نخجیر چند
> Firdausi
> 
> بزد خیمه گرد لب هیرمند
> برآسود باخرمی روز چند
> Asadi


 Let us wait for our Persophone colleagues but I would read these with the izaafat before _chand_.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _dam-e-chand _is attested in my _nasiim-ul-luGhaat_! So we can say it is safe to use it although in everyday speech I must say I haven't heard it. Ideal for Urdu poetry!



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I am wondering if there is a "mix-up" between "dame chand" (a few breaths-- with yaa-i-majhuul) and "dam-i-chand" (with izaafat). If it is indeed the construction with the izaafat, then in Urdu at least this would be my second instance of seeing an izaafat before chand, the first one being Dard's "tuhmat-i-chand".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I am wondering if there is a "mix-up" between "dame chand" (a few breaths-- with yaa-i-majhuul) and "dam-i-chand" (with izaafat). If it is indeed the construction with the izaafat, then in Urdu at least this would be my second instance of seeing an izaafat before chand, the first one being Dard's "tuhmat-i-chand".


 QP SaaHib, _nasiim-ul-lughaat_ gives the definition of _dam-e-chand_ as:  چند لمحے _chand lamHe - same as that UM SaaHib found in the online dictionary(above), although I do understand that this one, like other online lexicons, sometimes gets things wrong! It is therefore best to confirm what one finds in online ones by looking up well-known printed ones._


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, _nasiim-ul-lughaat_ gives the definition of _dam-e-chand_ as:  چند لمحے _chand lamHe - same as that UM SaaHib found in the online dictionary(above), although I do understand that this one, like other online lexicons, sometimes gets things wrong! It is therefore best to confirm what one finds in online ones by looking up well-known printed ones._



Thank you, UM and Faylasoof SaaHibaan. I was a little weary of the dictionary UM SaaHib had quoted from but it, Nasiim-ul-Lughaat and Ghalib have proved me wrong!! I shall just use three couplets. It is quite clear from these examples that the meaning of "chand" after an izaafat is "kuchh", although I am still of the opinion that in the right context, it can mean "kitnaa/kitne". And, perhaps, in the "tuhmat-i-chand" shi3r, it does mean this.

dil-i-betaab kih siine meN dam-i-chand rahaa 
bah-dam-i-chand giriftaar-i-Gham-i-chand rahaa 

zindagii ke hu'e naagah nafas chand tamaam 
kuuchah-i-yaar jo mujh se qadam-i-chand rahaa 

3umr-bhar hosh nah yak jaa hu'e mere kih, Asad 
maiN parastandah-i-ruu-i-sanam-i-chand rahaa


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## marrish

Another example with a clear-cut izaafat can be found in the expression باستثنائےچند.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Another example with a clear-cut izaafat can be found in the expression باستثنائےچند.



Is the ئے an izaafat or yaa-i-vaHdat?


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## marrish

In the post above I called this example a written ''clear-cut izaafat'' being quite sure of it, but since you are asking I suspect there may be a trick in here, but as per my perception it is _izaafat_, not _yaa-e-waHdat_.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> In the post above I called this example a written ''clear-cut izaafat'' being quite sure of it, but since you are asking I suspect there may be a trick in here, but as per my perception it is _izaafat_, not _yaa-e-waHdat_.



No, there is no "trick", marrish SaaHib. We in the Subcontinent do not distinguish the izaafat after a long vowel from a yaa-i-majhuul after a long vowel. In your example, the pattern could be exactly the same as in the Hafiz Ghazal beginning..

حسب حالے ننوشتیم و شد ایامے چند 
قاصدےکو که فرستم به تو پیغا مے چند 

 In order for your example to be an izaafat, it should be written as با ستسناے چند. Are you sure your construction is n't with yaa-i-vahdat as in the Hafiz shi3r above?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> No, there is no "trick", marrish SaaHib. We in the Subcontinent do not distinguish the izaafat after a long vowel from a yaa-i-majhuul after a long vowel. In your example, the pattern could be exactly the same as in the Hafiz Ghazal beginning..
> 
> حسب حالے ننوشتیم و شد ایامے چند
> قاصدےکو که فرستم به تو پیغا مے چند
> 
> In order for your example to be an izaafat, it should be written as با ستسناے چند. Are you sure your construction is n't with yaa-i-vahdat as in the Hafiz shi3r above?


It is true what you say about the pronunciation/depiction of izaafat after a long vowel being equal to yaa-e-majhuul as depicted in the Subcontinent. However, the sense of the expression leaves no room for ambiguity. Moreover, it should be written as با ستثنا . I must admit that the spelling of the _izaafat_ that you propose (without _hamzah ء_) is something new for me, and I'm not only referring to this very example. If I find more examples like this (_hamzah+ye_) I'll get back and post them here.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> It is true what you say about the pronunciation/depiction of izaafat after a long vowel being equal to yaa-e-majhuul as depicted in the Subcontinent. However, the sense of the expression leaves no room for ambiguity. Moreover, it should be written as با ستثنا . I must admit that the spelling of the _izaafat_ that you propose (without _hamzah ء_) is something new for me, and I'm not only referring to this very example. If I find more examples like this (_hamzah+ye_) I'll get back and post them here.



I am not a 100% certain that I have been able to convey what I have in mind. 

This is not my "proposal". Although "kitaabe chand" and "kitaab-i-chand" seem to mean the same thing (as per Mirza Ghalib's Ghazal)..

marde nek = a pious man (with yaa-i-vahdat)

mard-i-nek = The pious man (with izaafat)

So ba_istisnaae chand = with a few exceptions

ba_istisnaa-i-chand = with the few exceptions (that have been mentioned already..)


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## marrish

Please excuse me for the unfortunate expression (propose). It should have been 'postulate' instead.

QP SaaHib, I have to confess that I don't consider myself competent to argue with you on this point, but I acknowledge that I have understood the points you have made above. I had merely the Urdu way of writing in mind (hamzah or no hamzah).

As I have made my point above about this expression being an example of _izaafat_, let me reiterate that I find the expression is _ba_istisnaa-e-chand, _meaning 'with the exception of some (cases)'_. _If I have erred on this point, I'd love to be corrected!


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## Qureshpor

Today, I found the following sentence in a Persian grammar book (Muhammad Ibrahim 1841)

"امّا این حیوانک بازیچہء چند میارد کہ بسیار متعجّبند۔"

"But this little animal exibits several tricks that are very surprising."

So, my query has been cleared. Thank you, one and all!


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> chand


نصیحتی چند 
based on my knowlege نصیحتی is
نصیحت is noun + یا ....نکره ساز


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> نصیحتی چند based on my knowlege نصیحتی is
> نصیحت is noun + یا ....نکره ساز


ٰ I know, we can have نصیحتی چند (a few pieces of advice) or نصیحتِ چند


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> ٰ I know, we can have نصیحتی چند (a few pieces of advice) or نصیحتِ چند


No I do not think so! نصیحتی چند  originally is چند نصیحت .... and in this form  نصیحت + ی  + چند = I do not think we can use with kasreh...


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> No I do not think so! نصیحتی چند  originally is چند نصیحت .... and in this form  نصیحت + ی  + چند = I do not think we can use with kasreh...


Well, you may not think that we can not use it. But people do use it and have used it.

بتیر و کمان و بگرز و کمند
بیفکند بردشت نخجیر چند

Firdausi

بزد خیمه گرد لب هیرمند
برآسود باخرمی روز چند

Asadi


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> No I do not think so! نصیحتی چند  originally is چند نصیحت .... and in this form  نصیحت + ی  + چند = I do not think we can use with kasreh...


Please see بیت number 957.

با عوانان ماجرا برداشتند / پیشِ فرعون از برای دانگِ چند

به وجود آمدن موسی و وحی آمدن به مادر موسی | شرح و تفسیر - دیدار جان


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> Well, you may not think that we can not use it. But people do use it and have used it.


We are talking about نصیحتِ چند  with Kasreh under ت. But OK it seems we have two different views!!!


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## Qureshpor

Eastern Ludicrous Writer said:


> We are talking about نصیحتِ چند  with Kasreh under ت. But OK it seems we have two different views!!!


 See post 26, دانگِ چند with کسرہ.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> See post 26, دانگِ چند with کسرہ.


میان ماه من تا ماه گردون .....do you know the remain?
this چند need a big discussion I think..... anyhow OK, I accept it!


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## Derakhshan

Qureshpor said:


> Today, I found the following sentence in a Persian grammar book (Muhammad Ibrahim 1841)
> 
> "امّا این حیوانک بازیچہء چند میارد کہ بسیار متعجّبند۔"
> 
> "But this little animal exibits several tricks that are very surprising."
> 
> So, my query has been cleared. Thank you, one and all!


It would seem not, Qureshpor. That book strangely uses ۀ to represent ه ای.

Check the word محاورۀ here, in context it can only be محاوره‌ای:


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## Derakhshan

Another such example, عوامل متعددۀ can only be interpreted as عوامل متعدده‌ای:


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## eskandar

Derakhshan said:


> That book strangely uses ۀ to represent ه ای.


Not so strangely, in fact. This convention is very common in 19th century (and maybe earlier) manuscripts.


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## Qureshpor

Hi @Derakhshan, my understanding is that the ای representation with ۀ is only for a verbal format (2nd person singular) e.g کردۀ  would be کردہ ای. Substantives with  hamza over the ه, as in بازیچۀ, it is an izaafat. Even if your supposition is true, I have still provided the example of  دانگِ چند in #26.


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## PersoLatin

> "امّا این حیوانک بازیچہء چند میارد کہ بسیار متعجّبند۔"


From a an Iranian Persian point of view this is an unusual sentence, although Persian should be Persian. If I am correct میارد is می‌آورد and it’s neither colloquial (میاره) nor formal but it’s used in a very formal sentence.

If this was a text from 19th century Persia I could confidently re-write as:  اما این حیوانک بازیچه ای چند میاورد که بسیار متعجبند  (although تعجب آور would be used for متعجب) and here بازیچه ای چند is the same as ‏چندین ‏بازیچه  so here ۀ/ای is not functioning as kasré/کسره but as an indefinite article meaning 'some tricks' if بازیچه  is to be taken and 'trick'. Or بازیچہء چند is a poetic style for چند بازیچه in which case *ء* must represent a kasré/کسره which as a symbol (for kasré), is not known to me.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Hi @Derakhshan, my understanding is that the ای representation with ۀ is only for a verbal format (2nd person singular) e.g کردۀ  would be کردہ ای. Substantives with  hamza over the ه, as in بازیچۀ, it is an izaafat. Even if your supposition is true, I have still provided the example of  دانگِ چند in #26.


I would like to correct my assertion above.

ۀ is used BOTH for verbal format and with an indefinite suffix -e (-ii in the modern language). The following examples from Maulana's Masnavi, illustrate the usage.

از نشاط از ما کرانه  کردۀ = کردہ ای                  
این تکبّر از کجا آوردۀ = آوردہ ای  

Due to a life of pleasure, you have been avoiding us
Where on earth have you brought this haughtiness?

چون بخارہ میروی دیوانۀ = دیوانه  *ای   *
لائقِ زنجیر و زندان خانۀ = خانه  *ای   
*
Since you are going to Bukhara,* you are *crazy
*You are* worthy of (being in) chains and prison

امشب از باران بما دہ گوشۀ   
تا بیابی در قیامت توشۀ 

Tonight, due to the rain, give us *a* (dry) *spot*
So you may have *a provision* on Doomsday

As a matter of interest, I would like to ask our Persian speaking friends if there is an izaafat before the word چند in the examples provided in # 8 and # 26.


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> بزد خیمه گرد لب هیرمند
> برآسود باخرمی روز چند


هیرمند  and  روز چند  both ر in هیرمند and ز in  روز are ساکن


Qureshpor said:


> بتیر و کمان و بگرز و کمند
> بیفکند بردشت نخجیر چند


ر in نخجیر is ساکن as well
In this couplet you know that موصوف  is missed based of poem requirement. If we change it to prose, it will be:
چند ( نفر را ) بر دشت نخجیر بیفکند


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## Eastern Ludicrous Writer

Qureshpor said:


> چون بخارہ میروی دیوانۀ = دیوانه *ای *
> لائقِ زنجیر و زندان خانۀ = خانه *ای *


چون بخارا می‌روی دیوانه‌ای
لایق زنجیر و زندان‌خانه‌ای



Qureshpor said:


> امشب از باران بما دہ گوشۀ
> تا بیابی در قیامت توشۀ


امشب باران به ما ده گوشه ای
تا بیابی در قیامت توشه ای

based on which copy or version, you quote above couplets? as a matter of my intensest asking!



Qureshpor said:


> از نشاط از ما کرانه کردۀ = کردہ ای
> این تکبّر از کجا آوردۀ = آوردہ ای


از نشاط از ما کرانه کرده‌ای
این تکبر از کجا آورده‌ای


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