# The use of flags



## Sepia

Sometimes rules - I mean real laws - regulating the use of flags really make me wonder. Take Denmark as an example: In Denmark it is not allowed to fly any other flag on your flagpole than the Danish flag without special permission from the police. That is - national flags of other states, it says in the regulations. 

So basically, when foreign tourists who hire vacation homes in Denmark fly their own national flag, they are in violation of the law. 

Here in Germany I could fly the Danish flag as much as I wanted to, if I would. There is actually only one flag that I cannot display - you guessed it - the one where the Nazis are abusing the ancient symbol for the sun. That would be a serious offense here.

The funny thing is, that if a bunch of neo-nazis decided to hold a conference somewhere in Denmark and displayed the Nazi flag, it would probably be OK - technically - because the Third Reich does not exist any more. It is not the flag of any foreign state.

Does any of you know of other democratic states that have equally strange laws regulating the use of flags?


----------



## sokol

In Austria it is not permitted at all to let fly _flags on your car_ - this only is allowed for state authorities (the president, foreign presidents and prime ministers visiting, etc.).

For Euro 2008, the European Football Championship, there was made an exception - it is officially allowed to have flags on your cars, of any nation you choose.

Apart from that I do not know of any restrictions concerning flags here in Austria (except for the Swastika which is forbidden here, as it is in Germany).


----------



## palomnik

In the USA as far as I know, you can fly any national flag you want as long as you _also _fly the American flag, and the American flag has the senior position, i.e, higher than the other flags, or else to the right of the other flags.


----------



## dante08

I don't know if there are any specific "flag laws" in the UK, but I don't think so. However, in the last few years there have been many reported incidents (albeit usually in right-leaning tabloid newspapers) of people being made to remove (by local authorities) English or British flags from their properties due to the fact they could be/are offensive to ethnic minorities. On the other hand, if you live in an area where there are lots of people who originate from X country, from what I've noticed you can fly the flag of that country without any problems. You certainly don't need to fly a British flag alongside it in a senior position, as has been mentioned is the case in the USA.

I have personally witnessed British flags being burnt in public at anti-Iraq War protests, by British and non-British citizens alike, and the police didn't seem to mind too much.

Edit: I should say "mainland UK" because I guess the flag issue in Northern Ireland is a different kettle of fish...


----------



## Gwan

No strange laws that I can think of, except that burning or otherwise desecrating the New Zealand flag is against the law, which many people such as myself would see as a pretty stupid law. There was a bit of a kerfuffle in the media recently about a Hindu man who had a swastika painted on the roof of his house - nothing to do with neo-Nazism, but some of his neighbours took offence, and typically for New Zealand the media were all over this non-event... Sigh, the joys of living in a small inconsequential nation.


----------



## Sepia

dante08 said:


> I don't know if there are any specific "flag laws" in the UK, but I don't think so. However, in the last few years there have been many reported incidents (albeit usually in right-leaning tabloid newspapers) of people being made to remove (by local authorities) English or British flags from their properties due to the fact they could be/are offensive to ethnic minorities. On the other hand, if you live in an area where there are lots of people who originate from X country, from what I've noticed you can fly the flag of that country without any problems. You certainly don't need to fly a British flag alongside it in a senior position, as has been mentioned is the case in the USA.
> 
> I have personally witnessed British flags being burnt in public at anti-Iraq War protests, by British and non-British citizens alike, and the police didn't seem to mind too much.
> 
> Edit: I should say "mainland UK" because I guess the flag issue in Northern Ireland is a different kettle of fish...




This again sounds really weird - having to remove a flag for those reasons. Not that I have not seen British or other national Flags displayed in a provocative manner, but that is something you normally have to put up with. I think this would fall under "freedom of personal expression" in Germany and be protected by the constitution.

I am sure it is against the laws in both Germany and Denmark to burn their national flags publicly.

That, however did not prevent Danish flagmakers from exporting a whole lot of flags into the Middle East in recent years. As far as I know they did not wrap them up together with lighter, to be sold as "Hamas Party Packs", as my Scottish, non-religious colleague suggested.

What Britain is concerned, don't forget that although you don't find any law concerning this in the law-books, it does not mean there are no rules. Many of them may be based on Common Law, just like it is the case in Denmark (or at least what comes closest to the principles comparable to Common Law).


----------



## Nunty

The United States has lots of laws about their flag. I remember that when I was a student in the 1970s, there was a great deal of agitation because certain anti-war protesters fashioned a US flag into a shirt or wore a shirt of fabric printed to resemble a flag. 

What I found truly amazing when my family moved there was that there is a formal Pledge of the Allegiance "to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands". I understand the post-Civil War context of this pledge, but I still find it astounding that people vow their fidelity first to the flag and then to the political entity it represents.

Do other countries have similar pledges?


----------



## sokol

A quick look into *German Wiki* did show some interesting detail - I don't know if Wiki is accurate in this case, so I quote only (my translation) what is written there:

"Außerdem ist es ebenfalls nicht zulässig, andere Nationalflaggen zu hissen. - Furthermore it is not allowed [in Germany] to fly other [foreign] national flags."
Further, according to Wiki, the _Bundesdienstflagge _(the one with the coat of arms) may only be used by state and communal officials and it is not (!) allowed for German citizens to fly the _Bundesdienstflagge_.
[Germans don't seem to bother too much with law it seems - at this time, with Euro 2008 here in Vienna, I already have seen several German fans in town walking around with the _Bundesdienstflagge _= the one with the coat of arms, and not the neutral one.]

So there seem to be more laws about flags in Germany than most people realise.

In *Austria *I do know of no rule that forbids flying foreign flags, Wiki claims that it is allowed for private persons to fly the Austrian flag except if someone is misusing/ abusing it in any way. (The rule concerning flags on cars as mentioned above being the exception.)



Nun-Translator said:


> (...) "to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands" (...)



In Austria there is no pledge to the flag but to 'homeland' (Vaterland), republic and the people. This is the pledge of soldiers, hence the martial references ... Austrians are no war-faring nation (not any more at least ;-):
_„Ich gelobe, mein Vaterland, die Republik Österreich, und sein Volk zu schützen und mit der Waffe zu verteidigen. Ich gelobe, den Gesetzen und den gesetzmäßigen Behörden Treue und Gehorsam zu leisten, alle Befehle meiner Vorgesetzten pünktlich und genau zu befolgen und mit allen meinen Kräften der Republik Österreich und dem österreichischen Volke zu dienen.“_


----------



## Sepia

sokol said:


> A quick look into *German Wiki* did show some interesting detail - I don't know if Wiki is accurate in this case, so I quote only (my translation) what is written there:
> 
> "Außerdem ist es ebenfalls nicht zulässig, andere Nationalflaggen zu hissen. - Furthermore it is not allowed [in Germany] to fly other [foreign] national flags."
> Further, according to Wiki, the _Bundesdienstflagge _(the one with the coat of arms) may only be used by state and communal officials and it is not (!) allowed for German citizens to fly the _Bundesdienstflagge_.
> [Germans don't seem to bother too much with law it seems - at this time, with Euro 2008 here in Vienna, I already have seen several German fans in town walking around with the _Bundesdienstflagge _= the one with the coat of arms, and not the neutral one.]
> 
> So there seem to be more laws about flags in Germany than most people realise.
> 
> In *Austria *I do know of no rule that forbids flying foreign flags, Wiki claims that it is allowed for private persons to fly the Austrian flag except if someone is misusing/ abusing it in any way. (The rule concerning flags on cars as mentioned above being the exception.)
> 
> 
> 
> In Austria there is no pledge to the flag but to 'homeland' (Vaterland), republic and the people. This is the pledge of soldiers, hence the martial references ... Austrians are no war-faring nation (not any more at least ;-):
> _„Ich gelobe, mein Vaterland, die Republik Österreich, und sein Volk zu schützen und mit der Waffe zu verteidigen. Ich gelobe, den Gesetzen und den gesetzmäßigen Behörden Treue und Gehorsam zu leisten, alle Befehle meiner Vorgesetzten pünktlich und genau zu befolgen und mit allen meinen Kräften der Republik Österreich und dem österreichischen Volke zu dienen.“_



You have confused two different things here. What you have found are the regulations concerning flags on ships. That is a different thing. Flags on ships - together with their names are comparable with the licence plates on a car. Using the wrong flag is like if you put fake licence plates on your vehicle. That is against the law even in Austria.


But it is true that not anybody can use the flags of state authorities - the ones with the nice, black bird on them. I have never heard of anyone getting into trouble for doing so, and many people do fly it.

Right now, while the football championships are taking place a lot of people display various flags from their window sills. This actually would be an offence if it happened in Norway, even with the Norwegian flag. You are only allowed to fly that from a flag pole.

Talking about flag poles: 

Most village houses in Denmark have a flag pole, except in the south of Jutland. The southernmost part (Soenderjylland (DK) or Nordschleswig as we call it) used to be German until a referendum was held and it became part of Denmark. For a long, long time you could still tell which families were German-speaking and which were Danish. Since the German minority could not display any other flag than the Danish one - which they did not want - they could at least show who they were by not having a flag-pole in the garden at all.


----------



## sokol

Sepia said:


> But it is true that not anybody can use the flags of state authorities - the ones with the nice, black bird on them. I have never heard of anyone getting into trouble for doing so, and many people do fly it.



Well, I don't know from experience of course - and then I am Austrian where there aren't any restrictions (as far as I know).
Certainly the German flag with the coat of arms in it - the Bundesdienstflagge - is not so rarely seen, I know that too; may be that the executive puts a blind eye to it.

But the flags flying definitely seem to be a Scandinavian thing, not only a Danish one. In rural Sweden you see flags on poles on many houses; it is just a normal thing there - you don't see that in Austria at all (except on national holidays).

Concerning the Wiki article - I have overlooked the reference to regulations for use of flags on ships. Such regulations too should exist for most other countries, I guess.


----------



## Forero

There seem to be two factions in the U.S.A.:  Those who feel everyone should revere the flag and recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag and the republic "under God indivisible", and those who feel the use of symbols is a matter of freedom of expression.

Actually there are minorities with more complex opinions.  For example atheists who believe in the flag and the pledge but insist that the pledge should not include the name of a mythical being, and religious people who believe the Deity's name is not to be used in vain (to add force to a pledge) or that idol worship (pledging allegiance to something made with hands) is forbidden by the Deity.

Our Supreme Court decides on such matters from time to time, and most Americans accept whatever the latest decision is (they sometimes "reverse" previous decisions) and expect the Bill of Rights to be respected for the most part.

The beginning of the Bill of Rights:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, ..."

I don't know whether the Supreme Court would say this is intended to apply to local laws.

EDIT: I forgot to say that many Americans fly, display, and wear, flags of whatever they want, but some are offended enough by some of this to rally support from their local politicians.  As was mentioned before, some are particularly offended by burning of the American flag.

The Confederate flag still flies in some parts of the South.


----------



## jinti

palomnik said:


> In the USA as far as I know, you can fly any national flag you want as long as you _also _fly the American flag, and the American flag has the senior position, i.e, higher than the other flags, or else to the right of the other flags.


 That may be technically true, but in practice, people fly all sorts of flags all the time without bothering themselves about the US flag.  Here in Queens, New York City, nearly half the population was born outside the US.  Especially on the national holidays of everybody's countries (and when the World Cup is being played), it's not uncommon at all to see flags from lots and lots of nations draped from windowsills, flown, attached to cars, dangling from rearview mirrors, painted on vans, etc. without an American flag in sight.  Rules about having American flags and where they should go just aren't enforced for individuals, at least around here, and I'm sure a lot of people don't even know what the law is.

However, I'm sure big corporations and that sort of thing do observe the law.  A huge binational corporation building would most likely fly both flags or neither, for instance.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

Here in Mexico you can fly whatever flag you want, no matter the country, anyway here we have a special law for the Patrotics symbols; In those the flag is included; so as others have said, you cannot scratch, burn or draw it; also you cannot use the flag in a inmoral way it means  (as i have seen in other pics form US) a singer, actor or model cannot be doing something inapropiate with the flag, for example in Spain a Mexican singer (Paulina Rubio) appeared in a cover magazine, naked only envolced in the mexican flag, so this is inmoral and she was fined. 

Besides you cannot sell any item with the image of the flag, only obviosly another flag!!!


----------



## mirx

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Here in Mexico you can fly whatever flag you want, no matter the country, anyway here we have a special law for the Patrotics symbols; In those the flag is included; so as others have said, you cannot scratch, burn or draw it; also you cannot use the flag in a inmoral way it means (as i have seen in other pics form US) a singer, actor or model cannot be doing something inapropiate with the flag, for example in Spain a Mexican singer (Paulina Rubio) appeared in a cover magazine, naked only envolced in the mexican flag, so this is inmoral and she was fined.
> 
> Besides you cannot sell any item with the image of the flag, only obviosly another flag!!!


 
Miguelillo, this is of much interest to me. Do you know where I can get info about this Mexican laws? PV me please.

And well, the thing about not selling things with the image of the flag. I have seen all kinf of adornments with the Mexican flag printed in it.

Saludos.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

I was looking at an "educational" catalogue last week.  It was filled with stickers, pencils with different messages, plastic leis, borders for bulletin boards, etc., and then I came to a six-page spread with the banner "Express your patriotism!"  You could express your patriotism by buying cheap pencils, pendants, plastic bracelets, ball caps, stickers, and assorted junk, all emblazoned with stars and stripes.

Obviously the company's patriotism had limitations, since all the items were made in China!


In Canada, any federal building will fly a maple leaf; all provincial buildings except those of Quebec will fly the maple leaf and the provincial flag.  It is very rare to see the national flag in Quebec, where it is replaced by the fleur du lis.  Many houses fly the maple leaf (or fleur du lis), except in Acadian areas where you see the Stella Marie prominently displayed instead.  There are no rules about displaying any flags, and as Jinti said, during the Olympics or World Cup we become a United Nations of flags.  

It is illegal to burn a flag, but ironically when a flag is retired it is supposed to be disposed of honourably .... by burning.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

mirx said:


> Miguelillo, this is of much interest to me. Do you know where I can get info about this Mexican laws? PV me please.
> 
> And well, the thing about not selling things with the image of the flag. I have seen all kinf of adornments with the Mexican flag printed in it.
> 
> Saludos.


 
Here is the link of the SRE about the patrotic symbols http://www.sre.gob.mx/ligas/info_general/simbolos.htm


It's interesting to read that if we want to fly a flag in our homes or cars the coat of arms should be in black and white. I think nobody respect this point!!!!


----------



## mirx

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Here is the link of the SRE about the patrotic symbols http://www.sre.gob.mx/ligas/info_general/simbolos.htm
> 
> 
> It's interesting to read that if we want to fly a flag in our homes or cars the coat of arms should be in black and white. I think nobody respect this point!!!!


 
Interesting articles. About the white and black thing, I understood it as "it may be black and white" since not everyone would be able to reproduce a flag with the original colors.

About the Mexican flag and others, it only says that the national flag will have the place of honour, but it does not go as far as to specify what place of honour means.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

mirx said:


> About the Mexican flag and others, it only says that the national flag will have the place of honour, but it does not go as far as to specify what place of honour means.


 

I supposed "honor" as in the school taught us, and not denigrate it in any form, (muy subjetivo pero así son las leyes de México )


----------



## mirx

Miguelillo 87 said:


> I supposed "honor" as in the school taught us, and not denigrate it in any form, (muy subjetivo pero así son las leyes de México )


 
What did the school teach you?

I was taught to venerate the Flag, like I suppose everyone else in their respective countries are taugh.

However, by "honour" there it refers to a physical place. Let's say there are 2 no-national and the national flag, in this case the Mexican flag should occopy the "place of honour". 

The Americans have expressed that even though a foreing flag can be raised in American territory, the national flag show always stand higher. In analogy, the Mexican law for national symbols speaks about a "place of honour" but does not abound as to define what it means by that.


----------



## bb008

En Venezuela, el uso de la bandera (o símbolos patrios: bandera, himno nacional y escudo nacional) era exclusivamente para cantar el himno nacional o la celebración o conmemoración de una fecha o momento histórico de resto no se podía usar de otra manera, en una época, en los años anteriores a la década de los ochenta, era muy estricto, incluso persona que por alguna razón política, comunicacional, cultural o de otra índole, muchas veces se pintaban la cara con la bandera o si osaban utilizarla como accesorios, iba preso, y eso era incluso un delito. 

En estos momentos o desde finales de los 80 hasta hoy el uso de la bandera es más flexible en cuanto a utilizarla de otras formas como  en la parte cultural, deportiva representativa del país, etc., que no sea las arriba nombradas, por supuesto esto viene de adquirir el modismo de otros países donde la usaban en gorras, franelas, accesorios y por supuesto las caras pintadas, actualmente se hace, pero también siempre como mucho respeto y orgullo patrio.

En los últimos sucesos políticos acaecidos en mi país, se optó por colocar la bandera alrevés (algo que por lo menos yo no sabía y lo aprendí en ese momento, no estoy segura que sea así), tiene el significado de decir que el país se encuentra en peligro, no recuerdo exactamente el significado, pero era algo así, y al parecer esto sale en una película también.

¿Es verdad eso, si colocas la bandera alrevés tiene un significado mundial?...

Bueno a raíz de eso se realizaron campañas de información sobre el respeto a nuestro símbolo patrio (político por supuesto), pero que de algún modo nos hizo recordar cuando el día de la bandera (fecha patria que cambiaron también) cantabamos el himno nacional izando nuestra bandera, rindiendo honores, así como haciendo banderitas de papel...Estos actos en la época escolar eran muy emotivos.


----------



## Sepia

bb008 said:


> ....
> ¿Es verdad eso, si colocas la bandera alrevés tiene un significado mundial?...
> 
> ...quote]
> 
> Yes, as far as I know it is an internationally recognized distress signal. I have no idea where this practice originated.
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> Another thing about Americans and their flag: In a documentary about bounty hunters - I think it was the Chapmans - they were going to pick up somebody in a trailer park. The boss of the team pointed to a trailer with a big US flag flying from a short pole up on the wall and told the TV crew, "We are always extra careful when we enter places with flags because it almost always means they also have guns."
> 
> Any truth in that, Americans? Now don't tell me that there are so-and-so-many guns in the US than there are inhabitants, because this only means that some have a lot of guns - because I know a good many Americans who don't have any.


----------



## Porteño

As far as I am aware, in the UK there are no regulations or even common law decisions related to the use of the national or any other flag. You can buy toilet paper emblazoned with the Union Jack, not to mention underwear.

Here in Argentina the only restriction on the flying of a foreign flag is that the Argentine flag must also be flown at a higher position. There is also a strange 'law' which says you cannot wash a flag so theoretically once a flag is flown it must remain there until it disappears in tatters and can be replaced by a new one. This is why one often sees very faded and dirty flags flying. However, since the return of democracy, these rules do not seem to be enforced any more and clean flags are more common nowadays.


----------



## Full Tilt Boogie

Nun-Translator said:


> The United States has lots of laws about their flag. I remember that when I was a student in the 1970s, there was a great deal of agitation because certain anti-war protesters fashioned a US flag into a shirt or wore a shirt of fabric printed to resemble a flag.
> 
> *What I found truly amazing when my family moved there was that there is a formal Pledge of the Allegiance "to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands"*.* I understand the post-Civil War context of this pledge, but I still find it astounding that people vow their fidelity first to the flag and then to the political entity it represents.*
> 
> Do other countries have similar pledges?



Ah, I've always wondered about that wee aspect of why the US pledges to the flag first, and nation second! So it's a throwback to ensuring, post civil war, that all US citizens pledged "to the Union". Thanks, it's cleared it up nicely for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's no longer an offence in the US to burn or deface the flag? If memory serves, you changed that law quite recently, correct?

Whilst I adhere to the belief that flag burning is an essential right in a free society, I'm not a big fan of the practice. When I lived in the US, I had friends in the RPV, LA, who equally thought it a necessary 'right' and others who thought it should be a flogging offence. I just suggested that if they really wanted to make a point with the flag, then do what the US military protocol request you to do to show an outward symbol to others of you being in a state of distress: merely fly the flag upside-down. 


For anyone interested, here's a current link for the rules governing the use/display of the British (Union) Flag (commonly known as the 'Union Jack').

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snpc-04474.pdf


----------



## Sepia

Porteño said:


> As far as I am aware, in the UK there are no regulations or even common law decisions related to the use of the national or any other flag. You can buy toilet paper emblazoned with the Union Jack, not to mention underwear.
> 
> Here in Argentina the only restriction on the flying of a foreign flag is that the Argentine flag must also be flown at a higher position. There is also a strange 'law' which says you cannot wash a flag so theoretically once a flag is flown it must remain there until it disappears in tatters and can be replaced by a new one. This is why one often sees very faded and dirty flags flying. However, since the return of democracy, these rules do not seem to be enforced any more and clean flags are more common nowadays.


 

I can't tell for sure if I have seen toilet paper with any of the federal or state flags of Germany, but even if I have it is no proof that it is legal.

I know of at least one case where a man was convicted for "insulting the state" by a German court because he had placed a tiny Federal-German flag on a pile of dog shit. However, the basis of this was no specific law concerning flags, so I suppose it could at least theoretically have happened too, if he had placed the Argentinian flag on the dog shit and the Argentinian ambassador had taken action against him.


----------

