# Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?



## Forero

I find it fascinating that the word order that works so well in German fails in English and vice versa.

Does anyone want to try this one:

Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?

And don't say "Ending a sentence in five 'prepositions' is something up with which I shall not put." (Apologies to Winston Churchill.)


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## starrynightrhone

Forero said:


> Does anyone want to try this one:
> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?


 
"Mama, wofür hast du das Buch, aus dem ich nicht gerne vorgelesen bekomme, hervorgebracht?"

It would be a lot nicer (and more natural) to say that in two sentences:

"Mama, du weißt, dass ich es nicht mag, wenn du mir aus diesem Buch vorliest. Warum hast du es geholt?"


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## Kajjo

> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?


What does it mean? Is this real life or constructed?

Kajjo


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## dec-sev

Kajjo said:


> What does it mean? Is this real life or constructed?
> 
> Kajjo


 
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
     Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


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## Whodunit

> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?


 
I like Starrynightrhone's version. I'd say "Mutter, wofür hast du denn das Buch, aus dem nicht eh nicht gerne vorgelesen bekomme, rausgesucht?" (very colloquially)


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## Forero

Thanks starrynightrhone for the workable version of "... to out of up for".


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## Blumengarten

Kajjo said:


> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?.
> 
> What does it mean? Is this real life or constructed?
> 
> Kajjo



Oh wow, this is one of my favorite sentences from a college linguistics book ... yikes, over 20 years ago!  The author was trying to prove that it is possible and acceptable to end English sentences with a preposition.  In the mid-1800's the English teachers tried to force English to obey the rules of Latin, where it is impossible to end a sentence with a preposition (or so I've been told, I don't understand Latin!).  Some people say it's too hard for English-speakers to understand what you're saying if you put the preposition at the end.  

In this sentence, a 5-year-old child is getting ready for bed and her mom is bringing up a book that she doesn't like:  "Mom, what are you bringing that book that I don't want to be read to out of up for?"  Point being, even an English-speaking 5-year-old can understand how to put the prepositions in the correct order, just as a German 5-year-old would.  The "grammatically correct" sentence is rather incomprehensible:  "Mom, for what are you bringing up that book out of which I don't want to be read?


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## Forero

Blumengarten, my mother told me this sentence ("... to out of up for")back in the early 1960's when I was learning about prepositions in school for the first time. I remember being very excited about being able to analyze a process that seemed to operate at a subconscious level.


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## gaer

Forero said:


> Does anyone want to try this one:
> 
> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?
> 
> And don't say "Ending a sentence in five 'prepositions' is something up with which I shall not put." (Apologies to Winston Churchill.)


This is simply ridiculous:

"Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?"

No child is going to say that. This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.

Gaer


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## Acrolect

gaer said:


> This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.


 
Such sentences are used to make (not necessarily absurd) points in syntax or related fields of theoretical linguistics to test formal rules of the grammatical system of a language. Of course from a pragmatic point of view, they are pointless because they are very unlikely to occur in real life contexts. So they are also irrelevant for learners of English, at least for those without a deeper interest in grammar. 

But I do not believe that the sentence was initially mentioned as an example for learners.


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## gaer

Kajjo said:


> What does it mean? Is this real life or constructed?
> 
> Kajjo


Results 11 - 20 of about 275 for "to out of up for".

I think you'll find that all of these are linked to the same basic sentence, which is a deliberate (and humorous) example of how often we put prepositions on the end of a sentence.

But you have to remember that it is an exaggeration.


> What did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to out of up for?


You could break it up a bit, and make sentences less ridiculous:

Here's the book you wanted.

That's that wrong one. What did you bring _that_ book up for?

OR

Here's a good book.

Why did you pick a book [that] I don't want you to read to me out of.

But these are still exaggerations. When prepositions go to the end of sentences in English, any native will understand them. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Acrolect said:


> But I do not believe that the sentence was initially mentioned as an example for learners.


That's the point!

I had to read the sentence about 10 times before I caught on. 

I don't mean that it's absurd because it does not make a point. I makes a point, and the point is clever. That's why you see it referenced so many times and you get so many hits in Google.

I just wanted to warn people who write or speak English as a second language that you won't find five prepositions in a row, this way, in real life. 

Gaer


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## Arrius

I have enjoyed reading through this thread and feel inclined to put in my two cents' worth although a latecomer:

*Kajjo's *"Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read out of up for?" is, as he well knows, a monster that would, in real life, never be permitted to see the light of day, and is of theoretical interest only. 

Tschüß allerseits!
Arrius


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## Forero

Thanks for your input, Arrius.

While I am alert (awake) enough, I think I'll put in my tuppence worth on the "to out of up for" sentence. My feeling is that it is a little too complex for formal writing, where the intonation is absent, but natural enough for casual speaking. My observations/opinions:

1. Setting the stage with some other sentences or, better yet, creating a little drama for its context makes it perfectly understandable to a 5-year-old and the five "prepositions" may even go unnoticed - in context.

2. The sentence taken out of context usually makes the reader need to read it twice, apparently because the "up", out of context, seems to "come out of nowhere", but after the second (or maybe third) reading, native readers all come to the same understanding of the meaning and can create the appropriate context.

3. I don't think this sentence altogether unnatural either. Whereas an adult might edit better on the fly, a 5-year-old may indeed produce such a sentence and think nothing of it. And I wouldn't expect his/her parents to have any difficulty understanding it immediately.


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## Kajjo

gaer said:


> This is simply ridiculous: "Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?" No child is going to say that. This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.


Thanks, Gaer, for clearing this up. My feeling was right. The sentence has a highly artificial and constructed flavor.

I wonder how often prepositions are really separated from the main verb in English. Most English students of German fight with our "seperable verbs":

"Sie brachte das Buch hoch."
"She brought the book up." -- Is this standard? If yes, why do English students of German have so much difficulties with separable verbs?

Kajjo


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## floridasnowbird

...because not every sentence is so short as yours.

"Sie brachte das Buch, nach dem sie schon so lange gesucht hatte, aus dem Buecherregal im Keller hoch."

Floridasnowbird


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## gaer

Kajjo said:


> I wonder how often prepositions are really separated from the main verb in English. Most English students of German fight with our "separable verbs":


Kajjo, the whole subject of ending a sentence with a "preposition" is extremely complicated and has been debated at length in the English forum in many threads. 

Let's consider your "bring up" example here, but I have to make it clear that this is idiomatic and means to "mention".

She brought the book up.
She brought up the book.

Both are correct.

But it must be:

She brought it up.

The problem is that "up" is no more a "preposition" than a separable prefix is really a preposition in German. That's the complication, and people become confused because of over-simplification. In fact, Elroy can explain the rules and labels much better than I can.


> If yes, why do English students of German have so much difficulties with separable verbs?


Because we don't say:

She brought it up…
…because she it upbrought.  

I'm fed up, because everyone else upfed is.  

er gibt an
denn er gibt an
weil er angibt

he is showing off
for he is showing off
because he is offshowing 

I don't want to get totally off topic, so let's get back to this:


> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?


Here "bring up" has the meaning of "take the book upstairs" because of context. That is yet another ambiguity that causes a problem if the sentence is out of context. Is Mother mentioning the book, or is she bringing the book upstairs? 

Gaer


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## Blumengarten

Dear Everyone!



Forero said:


> I find it fascinating that the word order that works so well in German fails in English and vice versa.
> 
> Does anyone want to try this one:
> 
> Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?
> 
> And don't say "Ending a sentence in five 'prepositions' is something up with which I shall not put." (Apologies to Winston Churchill.)



Okay, this is a German forum, not English, but please a couple comments:  

a) the correct punctuation of this sentence should be, "Mother, what did you bring that book, that I don't like to be read out of, up for?" or, "Mother, what did you bring that book (that I don't like to be read out of) up for?"  There is no TO after the word READ, because the word TO would require an indirect object, but you could phrase it like: "What did you bring that book, that I don't like you to read to me out of, up for?"  

     I came across this sentence in a college textbook from the early 1980's, it may very well have been made up in the 60's or even earlier, but the author was simply making the point, that it is perfectly permissible to end English sentences with prepositions, and even children can put them in the correct order.  The same rules in German to determine the order of the prepositions apply in English as well:  the prepositions are in the reverse order of the verbs they are attached to.

b) This is supposedly an accurate quote by Winston Churchill, but taken out of context.  When somebody commented on his having ended a sentence with a preposition, he reportedly replied using this sentence, making clear that this "rule" makes for a rather incomprehensible sentence.  

     Chaucer, Shakespeare, the King James Bible, and all the great writers of early modern English ended their sentences with prepositions, and it wasn't until the mid-1800's that grammarians "invented" this rule to make English fit the rules of Latin, but since English is a Germanic language, not a Romance one, such rules make for very awkward sentences.

     And now the moderator will get mad at me for going off-topic!  

     I've been enjoying reading your comments on these and other subjects, I wish my German were good enough that I could write long sentences in it.


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## Forero

I think English speakers have trouble with separable verbs because of -

1. Word order (things getting dumped at the end of a clause that would seem to make more sense somewhere else, inversion of subject and verb, double infinitives),

2. Attachment as a prefix ("aufzunehmen", nicht "zu aufnehmen", nicht "zu nehmen auf" - this on top of compound words difficult to separate to a non-native),

3. Lack of correspondence between the "little words" of German and those of English: "op" and "auf" do not translate to "up" and "off" though they are all common in their respective languages.


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## Hutschi

Arrius said:


> I have enjoyed reading through this thread and feel inclined to put in my two cents' worth although a latecomer:
> 
> *Kajjo's *"Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read out of up for?" is, as he well knows, a monster that would, in real life, never be permitted to see the light of day, and is of theoretical interest only.
> 
> Tschüß allerseits!
> Arrius


 
Hi,
I do not want to analyse the sentence. But I remember, that we played with words as children, and the rules were to construct such sentences (or words) which were grammatically correct. This worked also with compound nouns. One of the rules could be to use the old sentence and add words. It is a question of beginning to enjoy language.

I think, that it might be a game.

And it may be a game you can also play alone.

Example:

Die Kinder, die spielen, sind die, die spielen.
Die, die die Spiele spielen, spielen gern.
Die, die die, die die Spiele spielen, beobachten, lachen.
...


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## mike.charal

For argument's sake, the questions "what for?" and "why?" mean essentially the same thing. And for me, it is much easier to parse a sentence when the classic rule of not ending with a preposition is used (it is not incomprehensible in the case of this sentence as someone mentioned earlier). So, just to phrase the question in the most comprehensible way, I would take this route:

Mother, why did you bring up that book out of which I do not want to be read?

This should make perfect sense at first glance to any English reader. What is the point of creating linguistic ambiguity just because it is still grammatically correct other than to theorize? I like the thought, though.


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## Forero

Welcome to the forum, Mike.Charal.

That takes the fun out of it.

Also, there is a missing _to_:

_Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?_
(Mother, why did you bring up that book out of which I do not enjoy being read to?)

In other words, I am not read out of the book, I am read to out of the book.


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## HON_Redakteur

Didn't the sentence actually read: "Mummy, why did you bring me that book about 'Down Under' up for?" I seem to remember it involving a book about Australia.

Regards,


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## Forero

My point is that German and English both have the habit of saving up little words for the end of a sentence, but they are not quite the same little words, nor do they fall in the same natural order.

Here is a shorter tour-de-force in German and its translation to English:

_Manchmal liest er sie mir spät nachts auch noch nicht gerne vor._
Sometimes he still doesn't like to read them to me late at night either.

It is curious what happens to all the little words at the end of the German sentence.

There are several versions of the "I don't like to be read to" sentence around, but I was wanting to know how German would handle all those little words. The answer is in Post #2. The little word _gerne_ makes things a lot less complicated than they otherwise could have been, and the prefixes do most of the work.

Danke vielmals to all the contributors to this thread.

P.S. Hutschi's game is just the sort of thing I enjoy.


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## possum888

The real quote is:

Mother, why did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?


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## berndf

Forero said:


> My point is that German and English both have the habit of saving up little words for the end of a sentence, but they are not quite the same little words, nor do they fall in the same natural order.


This is right. In English you find prepositions of prepositional objects at the end of the sentence, mainly in reflexive sentences:
_He won't put up *with that*._
_It's that [*which*] he won't put up *with*._
German tends to "verbal brackets" by splitting phrasal verbs or by separating auxiliary and main verbs:
_Er *nahm* das nicht *hin*._
_Er *hat* das nicht *hingenommen*._


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## Kumpel

Blumengarten said:


> There is no TO after the word READ, because the word TO would require an indirect object, but you could phrase it like: "What did you bring that book, that I don't like you to read to me out of, up for?"



You can put the _to_ there; it's passive.

Bob read to me.
I was read to (by Bob).

They both make perfect sense.


Lloyd


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## Forero

possum888 said:


> The real quote is:
> 
> Mother, why did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?


This is not the sentence I was asking about.

But what does this one mean? Is "Why for" a dialectal way to say "What for", or something else?


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## possum888

Hey... did all of you miss the "from" that was originally in the mix! The correct sentence should read:

Mother, why did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to from out of up for.

Our language seems to be very flexible with newly invented words such as "normalcy" instead of "normality". Perhaps one day the word "nuclear" will become "noocular" because of the way our illustrious G.W. Bush murdered the word.

Unless I am mistaken, "ghoti" according to G.B. Shaw, should be pronounced "fish", using acceptable rules of English spelling; "gh" as in cough, "O" as in women and "ti" as in nation.

Have a good Memoryul Deigh, everbuddy


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## Forero

Welcome to the forum, Possum888.

The _from_ makes sense (_out of_ means the same as _from out of_), but what does the_ for_ do in the version with _why_?


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## Kumpel

Mother, what did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?

Does everyone agree?

Lloyd


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## Jariya

gaer said:


> This is simply ridiculous:
> 
> "Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?"
> 
> No child is going to say that. This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.
> 
> Gaer



As a mother and an English teacher I will say that a five-year-old might well come up with this sentence. Much more likely this one than another that was suggested as more comprehensible,  '_why did you bring up that book out of which I do not want to be read?'. 
_Now if my kid ever said _that _I'd fall over backwards.


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## possum888

gaer said:


> This is simply ridiculous:
> 
> "Mother, what did you bring that book that I don't like to be read to out of up for?"
> 
> No child is going to say that. This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.
> 
> Gaer



Gaer, nothing gets past you, does it? Of course it's an artificial construction and it's only meant for humor. It is not an English lesson.
The more accurate quotation would be, "Mother, why did you bring that book of which I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?" 

Wayne


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## Resa Reader

possum888 said:


> Gaer, nothing gets past you, does it? Of course it's an artificial construction and it's only meant for humor. It is not an English lesson.
> The more accurate quotation would be, "Mother, why did you bring that book of which I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?"



First of all I have to say that I've read the whole thread now and yes, I did enjoy it. When I was half through with it I was about to answer to one of the remarks made there. Only then did I realize that it was a (very) old thread that was revived yesterday (which I found out when I got to the end of it.) For a while I completely forgot that this is the German forum after all. 

It was also funny to see that possum888 who doesn't seem to have been around for almost two years has come back to the forum today to join in again. (Have you seen that thread in your dreams, Wayne?) 

@ possum: They were trying to talk you out of the "Why .......... for? two years ago but you have kept the "why" as I can see here. As for me, I also prefer the What ..... for? as most of the other English or American foreros posting in this thread proposed.

See (Kumpel / 28 May 2010):


> Mother, what did you bring that book that I didn't want to be read to from out of up for?


When you use 'why' the 'for' at the end doesn't make sense to me and seems superfluous. (But then, I am not a native speaker after all. So, who am I to judge this?)

@ gaer:


> No child is going to say that. This is highly misleading to anyone who is trying to learn English. It's an artificial construction made up by someone making an absurd point.



I think there is no problem on the German forum. Most of those being around here know enough English to recognize this often-quoted sentence as an artificial construct. In most of the grammar books it is quoted to show what might be possible but what should be avoided for stylistic reasons.

@Jariya:


> As a mother and an English teacher I will say that a five-year-old might well come up with this sentence. Much more likely this one than another that was suggested as more comprehensible, '_why did you bring up that book out of which I do not want to be read?'.
> _Now if my kid ever said _that _I'd fall over backwards.



I can also appreciate what you are saying. You can overdo things both ways. What I try to teach my students is - I hope - modern, everyday English. I needn't encourage them to put their prepositions at the end a phrase - they do that naturally, anyway (not necessarily five in a row, though ). I very much prefer them to say things like "This is just the thing I have asked for." rather than "This is just the thing for which I have asked." 

[I have used prepositions rather abundantly here. So feel free to correct them as well as any other mistakes I may have made. Be sure that I'll correct your German as well.] 

Zum Schluss noch ein Satz auf Deutsch (um der Tatsache Rechnung zu tragen, dass wir uns hier im Deutsch-Forum befinden):
Ich bin wirklich sehr dankbar, dass ich die Regeln zur Stellung von Präpositionen und Vorsilben im Deutschen nicht lernen muss. Englisch erscheint mir hier wesentlich einfacher. (Hier kann ich die Regeln wenigstens erklären - meistens jedenfalls. In meiner eigenen Muttersprache befolge ich sie automatisch.)


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## Hutschi

Forero said:


> Here is a shorter tour-de-force in German and its translation to English:
> 
> _Manchmal liest er sie mir spät nachts auch noch nicht gerne vor._
> Sometimes he still doesn't like to read them to me late at night either.
> 
> It is curious what happens to all the little words at the end of the German sentence.
> ...



I am not sure if "still" is the correct translation for "noch".
The sentence has two parts:

_Manchmal liest er sie mir spät nachts auch noch - nicht gerne vor._
"Auch noch" is here "to add to the worse".
You can add "sogar":
_Manchmal liest er sie mir spät nachts sogar auch noch nicht gerne vor._
and "zu allem Unglück".
_Manchmal liest er sie mir spät nachts sogar auch noch zu allem Unglück nicht gerne vor._

"Auch noch" is a modifying idiom.
"Jetzt kommst du auch noch!" 
"Auch das noch!"

Rather old the  thread, but I saw it right now.


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