# Save them, O Lord



## LouisaB

I am ashamed to ask such an easy question as this, but it is a million years since I studied Latin, and I need to get this right:

What would be the correct way to say in Latin 'X and Y (names), *save them, O Lord'?*

The context is ecclesiastical. An elderly seventeenth century French priest is praying for the release of two prisoners during a night's vigil of prayer.

So far I've come up with *'Libera eas, Domine'*, because a quick trawl through an old copy of the Vulgate suggests 'Free them' is used where the English translation has 'save them', and the vocative 'Domine' is used alone where the translation has 'O Lord' or 'O God'.

Please, is there a better or more suitable way - or is there anything crashingly wrong with my version?

Many thanks for any help you can offer,

Louisa


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## Anne345

_salva eos Domine_

end 
_salva eas Domine_
if X and Y are women.


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## wonderment

Hi Louisa,

_Salva eos, Domine_ = Save them, O Lord. 

Use _eos_ if the named individuals are both male, or one male and the other female. Use _eas_ if both are female. 
I just checked the _Vulgate Bible_ online and _salvare_ is used for 'save'.


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## LouisaB

You are both quite brilliant. Thank you so much for saving me from making a complete fool of myself.

Louisa

PS I can't _believe_ I can have been so dim as not even to say which sex they were...!


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## brian

Are you going to be specifying the names like you did above?

_X and Y, save them, O Lord._

Just curious because I don't think you can do something like that in Latin, or if you can, I'm not sure what case X and Y would be in. I suppose accusative (not vocative), but the construction sounds strange.


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## LouisaB

Thank you, brian, that's a really good point.

The names were placed at the start because this is a fragment of overheard dialogue and I need us to hear the names. But you're quite right, I guess they should be in the accusative, and I have no idea at all how to do this with French names. Eeek.

The context of what went before (and after) would probably be something like 'We commend to your care *Jacques Gilbert and *_*Andre de Roland. Save them, O Lord,* _from the perils that threaten them...'

Is there any kind person who could help me with this, or do I need to start another thread?

Many thanks for all your help so far,

Louisa


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## brian

In that case, the names would definitely be accusative, as the direct objects of "commend," and that would complete the first sentence. The following sentence would then be "Salva eos, Domine."


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## LouisaB

Thank you so much, brian.

But how _does_ one put a French name in the accusative? Does 'Jacques' become 'Jacquem' and 'André' become 'Andrem' (yuk!)? Does one adjust only surnames, only Christian names, or both?

I'm sorry - should this be a new thread?

Louisa


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## brian

Ok, the name Jacques in Latin would be *Iacobus/Jacobus*, from Greek Ιακοβος/Iakobos, from Hebrew Ya'qob--so "*Iacobum*" in the accusative.

André would be *Andreas* in Latin, from Greek Ανδρεας/Andreas (originally from ανηρ/anēr, "man")--so "*Andream*" in the accusative.


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## LouisaB

Oh dear.

Thank you so much for going to this trouble, brian, I really appreciate it. But it gives me a problem, in that the names now won't be as instantly recognizable as I need them to be. I wonder if it might ever be acceptable within the context of a prayer not to translate the names themselves? 

More context: This priest is leading the prayers to a largely illiterate peasant congregation. He would, of course, always conduct services in Latin, and they would be used to that. Certain forms of words they would always recognize and respond to. However, he is obviously now extemporizing, and I wonder if under those circumstances he might leave the names as they are - which was my original plan? We do this in Modern Languages - eg when speaking in French, a man would still say his name was Peter rather than translate it into 'Pierre'. But of course, if I keep the names in their original form, I'd better not decline them at all.

Would you, as a Latin scholar, feel offended by the sight of untranslated names in this context, or would you just assume the writer was ignorant (which of course she is!)? 

Louisa


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## PacoBajito

Oh don't worry...the names from other languages can be indeclinable. For example in ancient Latin many Hebrew names had no declination (e.g. David, Moses); in modern times same scholars, expecially from 1400 to 1800 used to latinize (and so decline) their names, but the rule is that they aren't declined. I mean: do you think a priest was able to create words in latin? it's more reasonable to think he knew by memory a bit of latin, expecially formulars phrases, and used french for everyday life.


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## LouisaB

PacoBajito, I love you.

And thank you very much to everyone on this forum for bearing with me so patiently. Your help is more appreciated than you can ever know.

Louisa


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## PacoBajito

Oh Louisa, don't worry. I make so stupid questions in German session (I'm learning it because of Erasmus project) that I feel I must give my help when I can about Latin  (and because i like giving it).

But, if I can ask you, why were you looking for this informations?


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## LouisaB

PacoBajito said:


> But, if I can ask you, why were you looking for this informations?


 
Of course! It's only for a historical novel, but I need to be precise about these bits of dialogue because I've been asked to do a film script as well. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to appear - these things take years - but if it gets that far, I'll need to ask Mike's permission to credit this site, because the French, Spanish, and now the Latin forums have all been incredibly helpful.

Thank you again,

Louisa


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## PacoBajito

I felt it could be something like that. I got a feeling  for those things. Let me know in case of further priest-latin-speaking and above all tell me when it will be over.


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## LouisaB

Will do, Paco - and many thanks! 

Louisa


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## dan9184

Hey,

I'd just like to add that another common way to express the same thing is 'St. X ora pro eos!' or 'St. X & St.Y orate pro eos!'.


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## Hulalessar

_pro _takes the ablative: _ora pro eis_


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## dan9184

Hulalessar said:


> _pro _takes the ablative: _ora pro eis_



You're right!

I got confused with : 'ora pro eo'/'orate pro eo'


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## LouisaB

That's _brilliant_, guys - and just perfect for this character. This is a small village in Picardy, which just bulged with local saints in those days, and it helps me give the whole thing a 'parochial' feel.

Just one fearful question - would I need to translate the saints' names as well? I imagine if I do, they'd need to be in the vocative.

Louisa


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## PacoBajito

LouisaB said:


> Just one fearful question - would I need to translate the saints' names as well? I imagine if I do, they'd need to be in the vocative.
> 
> Louisa



It dipends. If they are old-dated ones, I think you should write them in Latin. Let me know.


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