# one of the prettiest girls I know



## skatersunite

Could anyone tell me how to say
"One of the best and prettiest girls i know" 
it would be greatly appreciated 

either
"one of the best and prettiest girls i know"
or
"one of the prettiest and best girls i know"

preferably the latter


----------



## IkHouVanPulcino

You need it in Italian? If so, you can say Sei la ragazza più bella e più dolce (sweet could do?) che abbia mai conosciuto. Hope this helps 

Simona


----------



## *Vegan*

skatersunite said:


> Could anyone tell me how to say
> "One of the best and prettiest girls i know"
> it would be greatly appreciated


 
Credo che tu voglia una traduzione in Italiano...

"Una delle ragazze migliori e più carine che abbia conosciuto".


----------



## skatersunite

I'm so lost. There's like 3 different ones.
"One of the prettiest and best girls I know."


----------



## Evito

Doesn't using the subjunctive "abbia" underline a certain doubt or holdeing-back on the "più belle e carine" part by the speaker? I mean, if he used the indicative, that would mean he would be absolute sure of his case, right?


----------



## skatersunite

haha thanks evito ...that doesnt confuse me more :S hahaha


----------



## Evito

I'm just asking here though, it might very well be that there's another reason for using the congiuntivo here, which I don't remember


----------



## skatersunite

Thank Evito....that just confused me more LOL!


----------



## skatersunite

Oh, sorry I was not aware I posted that already.  Yeah...big words...thats all LOL I normally dont get into the mechanics of english, to frustrating haha.


----------



## skatersunite

Ok so, pretty much the phrase I was asking to be translated is on a comment for a friend on a site and all I was going to have it say was "One of the prettiest and best girls I know" so I don't really know which of the options I was given fits that description haha.


----------



## Kamelie

Evito, my grammar book says you have to use the congiuntivo after "il/la più...che", otherwise the sentence is grammatically incorrect. Just another rule to learn... 
Anyway, at least that means that the use of "abbia" won't be read as conveying any doubt in this case.


----------



## Hockey13

Kamelie said:


> Evito, my grammar book says you have to use the congiuntivo after "il/la più...che", otherwise the sentence is grammatically incorrect. Just another rule to learn...
> Anyway, at least that means that the use of "abbia" won't be read as conveying any doubt in this case.


 
You are right. Though you are stating what you think is a fact, it is, by grammatical standards, an opinion. An opinion or an uncertainty should be accompanied by the subjunctive.

*Skatersunite*: Could you please use proper spelling and capitalization to help out our Italian friends? There are others here who are learning English and might take what you have written to be an example of what is proper. If you look at the forum rules, chat speak and incorrect English are not allowed here for that very reason. Also, if you want to say something after you have posted, simply use the edit button instead of adding more replies to a thread. Thanks a lot.


----------



## Evito

Kamelie said:


> Evito, my grammar book says you have to use the congiuntivo after "il/la più...che", otherwise the sentence is grammatically incorrect. Just another rule to learn...
> Anyway, at least that means that the use of "abbia" won't be read as conveying any doubt in this case.



My grammar book doesn't say it this way on the subject of "il/la più ... che", it does say something on "l'unico/a" and indeed also phrases like "questo è il biscotto più buono che abbia mai mangiato"

The author describes the congiuntivo in this case as a way to "weaken" the statement made with "unico" or "più" because many times we don't intend it to sound as absolute as it does. The author adds that, if the phrase is meant to be absolute or the speaker wants to leave away all doubt ("sei l'unico uomo che ho mai baciato") the indicative can be used.


----------



## Hockey13

Evito said:


> My grammar book doesn't say it this way on the subject of "il/la più ... che", it does say something on "l'unico/a" and indeed also phrases like "questo è il biscotto più buono che abbia mai mangiato"
> 
> The author describes the congiuntivo in this case as a way to "weaken" the statement made with "unico" or "più" because many times we don't intend it to sound as absolute as it does. The author adds that, if the phrase is meant to be absolute or the speaker wants to leave away all doubt ("sei l'unico uomo che ho mai baciato") the indicative can be used.


 
Hey, Evito. If I'm not mistaken, leaving out the subjunctive in the statement of an opinion preceded by "che" is considered uneducated Italian. Apparently it's used often in colloquial speech, but it shouldn't be. That has always been my impression.


----------



## Evito

Hockey13 said:


> Hey, Evito. If I'm not mistaken, leaving out the subjunctive in the statement of an opinion preceded by "che" is considered uneducated Italian. Apparently it's used often in colloquial speech, but it shouldn't be. That has always been my impression.



Yes I know.

Saying something like "Spero che tu stia bene" would seem more educated than "Spero che stai bene".

The author of my grammar says, though, that if we're not speaking about opinions but real facts we could use the indicative.

I must say though that when I was in Italian I was talking to some educated people but in daily speech the congiuntivo is often not used when expressing opinions. At a certain point I was being sounding more educated than the natives!


----------



## Hockey13

Evito said:


> Yes I know.
> 
> Saying something like "Spero che tu stia bene" would seem more educated than "Spero che stai bene".
> 
> The author of my grammar says, though, that if we're not speaking about opinions but real facts we could use the indicative.
> 
> I must say though that when I was in Italian I was talking to some educated people but in daily speech the congiuntivo is often not used when expressing opinions.


 
But surely "You are one of the prettiest girls I know" is an opinion, right?

I think we can often see the same thing in English to a lesser extent with ending a sentence with a preposition.


----------



## Evito

Hockey13 said:


> But surely "You are one of the prettiest girls I know" is an opinion, right?
> 
> I think we can often see the same thing in English to a lesser extent with ending a sentence with a preposition.



Well, yes it might be an opinion but that's why I was saying, if he wants to make a good impression with the girl he should present it as a fact. Although the girl might think: "Hey, this guy doesn't know how to use the congiuntivo, I need to get another one."

On the other subject, could you please give me an example of finishing a sentence with a preposition in English? I was trying to make a case about this to a teacher a few weeks ago but couldn't come up with an example.


----------



## Hockey13

Evito said:


> Well, yes it might be an opinion but that's why I was saying, if he wants to make a good impression with the girl he should present it as a fact. Although the girl might think: "Hey, this guy doesn't know how to use the congiuntivo, I need to get another one."
> 
> On the other subject, could you please give me an example of finishing a sentence with a preposition in English? I was trying to make a case about this to a teacher a few weeks ago but couldn't come up with an example.


 
Interesting conundrum! We'll have to wait for the natives.

For a preposition-ending sentence: 

That is the car that I drive to work *in*.

"Proper" form (or rather, the formal form):

That is the car in which I drive to work.

For more help on this, you should consult the EO forum.


----------



## Flaviano Martello

The idea that you mustn't finish a sentence with a preposition in English is an artificial rule that has no basis in actual usage.

Winston Churchill made fun of the rule by saying

*This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put.

*which should be

*This is the sort of nonsense which I will not put up with.

*


----------



## Evito

Yes indeed let's await the natives.

Thanks for the example.


----------



## Hockey13

Flaviano Martello said:


> The idea that you mustn't finish a sentence with a preposition in English is an artificial rule that has no basis in actual usage.
> 
> Winston Churchill made fun of the rule by saying
> 
> *This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put.*
> 
> which should be
> 
> *This is the sort of nonsense which I will not put up with.*


 
This sentence is always given, but it is absolutely ridiculous. You are assuming that "up" is a preposition in this sentence and it is absolutely not. It is an adverb that modifies the verb "put." To put up is the compound verb that takes the preposition "with [something]." The sentence you described (which by the way is always anecdotally attributed to Churchill, but I'd like to challenge anyone to find a reputable document saying he said it) would "formally" be written like this:

This is the sort of nonsense *with which* I will not put up.

That makes sense in English, but since this sort of phrase is hardly ever uttered in formal speech, it seems odd to us. 

Anyway, I beg the mods not to delete this post as it is in some strange, roundabout way related to the topic.


----------



## lsp

Superlatives take the subjunctive, for whatever reason that's a rule. Tu hai il sorriso più bello che abbia mai visto. Santa Lucia è il giorno più corto che ci sia. And so on.


----------



## Flaviano Martello

This is the sort of nonsense *with which* I will not put up.

This sentence is absurdly ungrammatical and I insist that no person would say it or write it. There is absolutely nothing unusual about the context; I can easily imagine saying "this is something I can not put up with" and I would never ever write "this is something with which I can not put up."

It is perfectly legitimate to end a sentence with a TRUE preposition in almost any context in English. Linguists have been studying this phenomenon for 40 years in English. It has a name. It is called 'preposition stranding'. When the preposition is not left behind it is called 'pied-piping' because the preposition follows its object (a reference to a folktale involving a 'pied piper'.)

Examples:

I live in Bologna.
Bologna is the city I live in. (normal, acceptable in written English by everyone)
Bologna is the city in which I live  (acceptable in written English, bizarre in speech)

If *in *is not a true preposition in this context I will eat my hat! To insist that people continue to avoid preposition stranding in English is -- in my opinion -- quite archaic and silly.


----------



## Hockey13

This is the sort of nonsense *with which* I will not put up. 

Is a perfectly grammatical English sentence whether you like it or not and it makes perfect sense.

However, you have entirely misunderstood me. Many people on this forum know me as the guy who's always fighting for getting this "rule" thrown away. My point is that the example that is often used (the one you gave) is utterly ridiculous in that it makes fun of grammatical correctness by splitting a compound verb in a totally ridiculous way which has nothing to do with prepositions. To put up [with] or to sit up or to stand up are all compound verbs in the sense that the "up" is an adverb that modifies the verb and not a preposition at all. "With" is the preposition in this sentence and placing it at the end is 100% normal, though throwing "up with which..." in the sentence to illustrate a point is wrong.

Furthermore, saying "Bologna is the city in which I live" is _not by any means_ bizarre in speech. It is not the most popular thing to say, but it is said often by people who have been exposed to this "rule." I would like you to point out exactly where I said that one must finish one's sentences in prepositions.


----------



## Nicholas the Italian

Forse sarebbe il caso di splittare il thread in due.

A me l'indicativo suona male.
"Sei la ragazza più bella che *ho* mai conosciuto"  
Not sure it is incorrect; maybe it sounds incorrect to me because everyone tends to use indicative where subjunctive should be used, so I tend to place subjunctive also where there's no real need for it.
For sure I can say that
"Sei la ragazza più bella che *abbia* mai conosciuto" 
is correct and does not convey an idea of uncertainity at all. So go with this (the variant that fits the original sentence, of course).


----------



## lsp

All the suggestions (on the topic of the original post) say "che abbia mai conosciuto/that I have ever known." Shouldn't it be "...che conosca/that I know"?


----------



## Nicholas the Italian

lsp said:


> All the suggestions (on the topic of the original post) say "che abbia mai conosciuto/that I have ever known met." Shouldn't it be "...che conosca/that I know"?


Both are ok, the first one is more extensive so I think fits better.


----------



## arirossa

Nicholas the Italian said:


> Forse sarebbe il caso di splittare il thread in due.
> 
> A me l'indicativo suona male.
> "Sei la ragazza più bella che *ho* mai conosciuto"
> Not sure it is incorrect; maybe it sounds incorrect to me because everyone tends to use indicative where subjunctive should be used, so I tend to place subjunctive also where there's no real need for it.
> For sure I can say that
> "Sei la ragazza più bella che *abbia* mai conosciuto"
> is correct and does not convey an idea of uncertainity at all. So go with this (the variant that fits the original sentence, of course).


I agree with Nicholas and lsp.
Regarding last lsp's question, I think that "la ragazza più bella che abbia mai conosciuto" is stronger than "la ragazza più bella che conosca" (and only in this form, I must admit that also the form "la ragazza più bella che conosc*o*" is correct).


----------



## lsp

Thanks for your replies, arirossa and Nicholas!


----------



## Flaviano Martello

Yes, the pseudo-Churchillian example is somewhat facetious and I should have given an example with a real preposition of the type that Hockey13 gave. 

Nevertheless as concerns the verb+particle construction, I believe the facts are more complicated than Hockey13 has presented them.

The compound verb is *to put up with*.  The two particles (they are not prepositions) are *not separable*. I insist that you *cannot* say:

This is something *with which I will not put up

*because in fact _neither _*up *nor *with* are true prepositions, so _neither _can precede the relative pronoun *which.*  Both must stay after the verb. 

The fact that *with *is not a preposition in this instance but is a particle can be easily established*. *A prepositonal phrase could be moved as follows:

**Is it *[in Bologna]* that Mary lives?  (context: I can't believe she lives _there). _A preposition could be put under constrastive focus with stress:

Is it *IN *Bologna that Mary lives?  (context: I thought she lives *near* Bologna). 

Now if you accept 

* This is the sort of thing of thing with which I will not put up*

then you should equally well accept 

 Is it with *laziness* that Mary does not put up? 
*With what sorts of things does Mary not put up?
*Is it *with *laziness that Mary does not put up? 
compare: 
*What sort of things does Mary not put up with?
Is it laziness that Mary does not put up with? 
* 
To reiterate: you _cannot _separate two particles of a complex verb+particle construction. That is why the original example is so outrageous.


----------



## Hockey13

I've actually been grappling with some of these constructions myself and I'm unsure of what the "with" is. By standard grammar rules, it is the word that combines the noun/pronoun with the verb much like this:

I live

Where?

I live *in the city*.

The city is the place *in which* I live.

All of those are correct, but the "put up with" form is a bit different. "To put up," as I understand it, is the compound verb with "up" being the necessary adverb, however "with" is required in all instances since "to put up [something]" has a different meaning. That said, the sentence I gave "..with which I will not put up" still makes perfect sense to me. I think the difference is that the simple phrase cannot work without a noun, so we never see it without "with."

I will not put up [with??].

With what will you not do..that?

I will not put up *with you*.

I think another major problem with this phrase is that almost every instance of it seems to be an idiomatic saying. "What are your rules/restrictions - What sorts of things do you not allow?" is normally preferred over "What will you not put up with?" I would agree that the sentences you marked as correct sound better than the X-ed ones, but they don't seem right to me somehow. In other words, it seems like a stretch to me to come up with a sentence has "put up with" at the end. Even "Churchill" would have sounded more natural if he had said:

I will not put up with this sort of nonsense.

Or rather..

This is the sort of nonsense that I will not tolerate.

Since this has veered so violently off course, I humbly suggest to a moderator to yank this discussion out of this thread and throw it into EO, just for posterity's and discussion's sake.


----------

