# Urodziny Jana sią piątego sierpnia



## triuo

Hi,

This is a sentence taken from a course I'm following...

_*Urodziny Jana są piątego sierpnia.*
Jan's birthday is on the 5th of August._

...which I have the following two doubts about:

1. Why the third person plural _*są*? _

2. I thought the *-ego* genitive ending was just for singular masculine & neuter adjectives. I don't understand why it's used there.

Cheers for any help!

PS: Polish numerals and how they work with the different cases seems unbearably/pointlessly complicated. It's seriously putting me off carrying on studying the language .


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## jazyk

What you meant was _Urodziny Jana są piątego sierpnia.

_You use _są_, plural, because _urodziny _is always used in the plural. Think of English words like pajamas, scissors, eyeglasses, which are also always used in the plural.

To say that something happens on a particular date, use the genitive form of the ordinal number. The ordinal of _pięć _is _piąty_, and its genitive is _piątego. _It is declined like any other adjective, like _dobry_, for instance. The month is also placed in the genitive because it is like saying _on/of the fifth (day) of August_.

Another way to say the same thing is _Jan ma urodziny_ _piątego sierpnia_ (literally: Jan has birthday on fifth of August).

Don't give up!


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## triuo

Jazyk, thanks for your explanation!

I wouldn't have guessed that _urodziny _is one of those always plural words (just out of the interest, is there an explanation for this?)

"Of the Xth day of Xmonth" makes sense but (excuse my dimness) I still haven't got clear why the "of the Xth day" part is an adjective.

In a previous section it gives this sentence:

"Andrzej siedzi naprzeciwko Jerz*ego* i obok Babary", but why is it the "-ego" ending there with Jerze [singular masculine animate] and "-a" in the other sentence with Jan [same]?

^I'm not sure if this is related to the previous thing but thought I'd ask just in case.

Cheers =)

PS. Sorry about the sią/są mistake, I've corrected it in my post (can't seem to change the title).


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## jazyk

I don't know why urodziny is only plural. I can tell you, though, that both the Czech, narozeniny, and the Slovak cognate, narodeniny, are also plural.

Ordinal numbers are declined like adjectives. Always. In other languages ordinal adjectives also function like adjectives.

Jerz*y* is also declined like an adjective. Nouns ending in y are declined like adjectives.


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## kknd

I can only guess that _urodziny_ is the name of the fest, like _imieniny_ (namesday), _postrzyżyny_ (now almost forgotten:first haircut/ceremonial hair-cutting/tonsure) etc. You can produce something a little bit more formal like _dzień urodzin/imienin/…_ (the day of birth/namesday/…) having by this singular form of _dzień_ (day) and genitive (plural) compliment.


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## marco_2

There existed more such words, e.g. _rozpleciny _(a kind of hen-party, when a bride-to-be had her plait untwisted), _oczepiny _(during the wedding party a bride had her cap put on), _pokładziny _(well, it was checked, if a bride is a virgin). And in seminaries there are still _obłóczyny_, when the seminarists put on their frocks for the first time. All these nouns are plural and, as kknd wrote, describe some festival, some important moment in people's lives.


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## triuo

Okay cheers, I've got it now! (not given up just yet ). Thanks also for the info about _urodziny _and similar words.


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> I don't know why urodziny is only plural. I can tell you, though, that both the Czech, narozeniny, and the Slovak cognate, narodeniny, are also plural.
> 
> Ordinal numbers are declined like adjectives. Always. In other languages ordinal adjectives also function like adjectives.
> 
> Jerz*y* is also declined like an adjective. Masculine names nouns ending in y are declined like adjectives.


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## Ben Jamin

kknd said:


> I can only guess that _urodziny_ is the name of the feast, like _imieniny_ (namesday), _postrzyżyny_ (now almost forgotten:first haircut/ceremonial hair-cutting/tonsure) etc. You can produce something a little bit more formal like _dzień urodzin/imienin/…_ (the day of birth/namesday/…) having by this singular form of _dzień_ (day) and genitive (plural) compliment.


 
I agree with kknd:
For an English speaker "birthday" is a day, for a Polish speaker it is a ceremony. Many other names of feasts and religious / social ceremonies have a plural form: gody (Yule), chrzciny (a feast after baptism ), otrzęsiny (initiation as a student), zaręczyny (betrothal), zaduszki (the day of the dead).


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## jazyk

_Masculine __*nouns *ending in y_ would have been better.


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> _Masculine __*nouns *ending in y_ would have been better.


 These nouns are all names having an adjectival ending and declined like an adjective. I can't recall any genuine nouns (not names) in that form.


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## jazyk

Deputowany is an example.


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## Amerykańska kobieta

Also:  narzeczony


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## Piotr_WRF

jazyk said:


> Deputowany is an example.





Amerykańska kobieta said:


> Also:  narzeczony



These are nouns that are derived from past participles, so it's somewhat natural that they're declined like adjectives.


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## jazyk

I fully agree.


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> Deputowany is an example.


Yes, you're right. These nouns are quite rare, though, and one can treat them as adjectives while not reflecting on the grammar. They are in fact both adjectives and nouns. It would be interesting to find a word that has lost its meaning as an adjective, but keeps the inflection. (I know, deputowany is rarely used as an adjective, but could be).
Present active participle is used more often, for example 'przewodniczący'.


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## jazyk

More nouns declined like adjectives: bagażowy (porter), biegły (expert), borowy (forester), gajowy (gamekeeper), krewny (relative), myśliwy (hunter), narzeczony (fiance), pieszy (pedestrian), plutonowy (platoon leader), podróżny (traveler), posterunkowy (constable), poszkodowany (disaster victim), przyjezdny (visitor), przysięgly (jury-member), radny (councilor), służący (servant), szeregowy (rank-and-file soldier), wojskowy (military man), znajomy (acquaintance).


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## Piotr_WRF

Ben Jamin said:


> [...] It would be interesting to find a word that has lost its meaning as an adjective, but keeps the inflection. [...]



If you're interested, take a look at this explanation of the etymology of _narzeczony_. I guess you can say that it has nowadays lost its meaning as a verb and participle and only exists as a noun.


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> More nouns declined like adjectives: bagażowy (porter), biegły (expert), borowy (forester), gajowy (gamekeeper), krewny (relative), myśliwy (hunter), narzeczony (fiance), pieszy (pedestrian), plutonowy (platoon leader), podróżny (traveler), posterunkowy (constable), poszkodowany (disaster victim), przyjezdny (visitor), przysięgły (jury-member), radny (councilor), służący (servant), szeregowy (rank-and-file soldier), wojskowy (military man), znajomy (acquaintance).


 
Wow! You are really a master of the Polish language! 
My comment: These words are all both adjectives and nouns, except of myśliwy , narzeczony and radny. These are the genuine nouns inflected like adjectives we were looking for.


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## Ben Jamin

Piotr_WRF said:


> If you're interested, take a look at this explanation of the etymology of _narzeczony_. I guess you can say that it has nowadays lost its meaning as a verb and participle and only exists as a noun.


 I agree. Jazyk listed also more words, and I found two more of them that are only nouns (see my response to jazyk).


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## Ben Jamin

Piotr_WRF said:


> If you're interested, take a look at this explanation of the etymology of _narzeczony_. I guess you can say that it has nowadays lost its meaning as a verb and participle and only exists as a noun.


 Thanks! I had guessed this etymology somehow on my own, but here it is explained in detail and in a historical perspective. Very good!


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## jazyk

> Wow! You are really a master of the Polish language!


Hahaha. I copied it from somewhere.


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## Ben Jamin

jazyk said:


> Hahaha. I copied it from somewhere.


I just recalled another word that is *only* a noun, but inflected as an adjective: woźny (historically bedell, now janitor at school).


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## BezierCurve

... or odźwierny (a doorman).


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## Ben Jamin

BezierCurve said:


> ... or odźwierny (a doorman).


 It must be a new usage. I can't remember it from the time when my Polish was formed. It was used then, practically, only about the school janitor, and in literature (woźny trybunału - Wojski).


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## kknd

i understood you think that _woźny_ is the same as _odźwierny_; it is not: synonyms of _odźwierny_ are _klucznik_ and _furtian(ka)_ and among synonyms of _woźny_ are _bedel_, _pedel_ and _tercjan_.


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## BezierCurve

Yes, I should've been more specific. I thought of it as of another example, not as of a synonym.


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## 0Patt0

Urodziny are plural just like drzwi (door), spodnie (trousers), nożyczki (scissors), okulary (glasses) and also chrzciny (baptism)! You need to remember it.


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