# The phrase 'I think it only fair'



## english999

Hey guys,
I was wondering if any of you knew why this phrase is the way it is? Apparently a verb isn't required after IT.
Also phrases like,
I think it only satisfactory to say... 
I think it only proper that...

Is there a grammatical name for this?


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## Harry Batt

I believe it is called a limiting modifier.

and welcome to the Forum 999


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## english999

Harry Batt said:


> I believe it is called a limiting modifier.
> 
> and welcome to the Forum 999



Aren't words like almost, hardly, nearly, only, or merely limiting modifiers?
I was worried about that IT in there.


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## Loob

Hi english999 - welcome to the forums

The sentence "I think it only fair" has the following structure:
_I _- _subject_
_think - verb_
_it - object_
_only fair - object complement_ {also called _object predicative_}.

It's an example of a _complex-transitive_ clause (and "think" is an example of a _complex-transitive_ verb).


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## english999

Loob said:


> Hi english999 - welcome to the forums
> 
> The sentence "I think it only fair" has the following structure:
> _I _- _subject_
> _think - verb_
> _it - object_
> _only fair - object complement_ {also called _object predicative_}.
> 
> It's an example of a _complex-transitive_ clause (and "think" is an example of a _complex-transitive_ verb).



How would you define it? 
Can you rephrase it for me please?


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## Loob

Sorry, english999, I must have misunderstood - I thought you were looking for a grammatical description.

Can you explain what you mean by "how would you define it?"

What you have here is a similar structure to "I found myself out of breath" or "I made him ill".


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## Forero

_I think it only fair_/_satisfactory_/_proper ...._ = "I think that it is only fair/satisfactory/proper ...."

This usage is not limited to active voice: _It is thought only fair ....

_Nor to _it_: _I think them only fair ...._

And nouns work too (like predicate nouns): _He thought them idiots ..._.

Sometimes we add _to be_: _We imagined them _(_to be_) _plumbers._ (This _to be_ would be useful in a more complex sentence or in one that might confuse the reader/hearer. Otherwise it is optional and can be unpleasantly superfluous.)


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## english999

Loob said:


> Sorry, english999, I must have misunderstood - I thought you were looking for a grammatical description.
> 
> Can you explain what you mean by "how would you define it?"
> 
> What you have here is a similar structure to "I found myself out of breath" or "I made him ill".



No way. 
I don't agree with you, man. I know what you're saying though... basic subject object relation where 'it' identifies the subject of the sentence 'I'.
I just think this is a different structure.


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## english999

Forero said:


> _I think it only fair_/_satisfactory_/_proper ...._ = "I think that it is only fair/satisfactory/proper ...."
> 
> This usage is not limited to active voice: _It is thought only fair ....
> 
> _Nor to _it_: _I think them only fair ...._
> 
> And nouns work too (like predicate nouns): _He thought them idiots ..._.



Ok,
that makes better sense.

Like _I hate them boots?_


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## LV4-26

I have an additional question.

The way I see it
_I think it only fair..._
...would normally be followed by _that_ + subordinate clause

I don't think it could stand on its own, as a comment on someone else's remark, for instance.
In that case, I believe it should be _I think it*'s*/that's only fair_.

Could you confirm both points?


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## Loob

I think it could stand on its own, LV4-26. But it would sound rather formal or 'literary'.


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## Forero

english999 said:


> Ok,
> that makes better sense.
> 
> Like _I hate them boots?_


No, Loob is exactly right. And it only works with certain verbs:

_I think it fair. 
I imagine it fair. 
_
(The meaning is something like "To me it seems fair.")
_
I hate it fair._


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## Forero

LV4-26 said:


> I have an additional question.
> 
> The way I see it
> _I think it only fair..._
> ...would normally be followed by _that_ + subordinate clause
> 
> I don't think it could stand on its own, as a comment on someone else's remark, for instance.
> In that case, I believe it should be _I think it*'s*/that's only fair_.
> 
> Could you confirm both points?


More examples (without _that_):

_Don't you think this queer?_
_I think this an odd thing to say.
__I think it only fair to take it as is.
__To save gasoline, imagine your foot a feather.
_


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## english999

Forero said:


> More examples (without _that_):
> 
> _Don't you think this queer?_
> _I think this an odd thing to say.
> __I think it only fair to take it as is.
> __To save gasoline, imagine your foot a feather.
> _



Very nice, Forero. I think you're on something here.
Now, what do you recommend I read as far as writings, books, etc. that would have more examples like these used in them? 
Did this usage have a name at all?


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## LV4-26

Loob said:


> I think it could stand on its own, LV4-26. But it would sound rather formal or 'literary'.


Thanks Loob, I see.


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## english999

Forero said:


> Sometimes we add _to be_: _We imagined them _(_to be_) _plumbers._ (This _to be_ would be useful in a more complex sentence or in one that might confuse the reader/hearer. Otherwise it is optional and can be unpleasantly superfluous.)



So I_ hate them *to be* boots_ ?
eeeh


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## Myridon

english999 said:


> Like _I hate them boots?_


No, that sentence is not standard English.  It should be:
I hate those boots. 
This version of the sentence is not like the ones under discussion because "those" acts as an adjective.


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## Forero

english999 said:


> So I_ hate them *to be* boots_ ?
> eeeh


I would not say that either. Depending on what I mean, I might say: "I hate that they are boots", "I hate their being boots", "I hate them as boots", "I hate those boots", or even "I would hate for them to be boots".

See Loob's post #4 for possible terminology.

_Hate_ is not the right type of verb. Two kinds of such verbs come to mind:

_Elect_, _make_, and any verb that means something like "cause to be"/"cause to become"/"changed to be":

_We elected him president.
They made him sick.
__
Think_, _imagine_, and any verb that means something like "take to be".

Notice that "to be" or "as" has to be included with verbs like _cause_, _change_, _take_, or _hate_.


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## Packard

I've always said,

*I think it's only fair...*

And, perhaps because of selective deafness, I've always heard it like that.

Gramatically this works fine--and perhaps that is the root of my selective deafness (or everyone I know say *it's*).


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## LV4-26

Packard said:


> I've always said,
> 
> *I think it's only fair...*
> 
> And, perhaps because of selective deafness, I've always heard it like that.
> 
> Gramatically this works fine--and perhaps that is the root of my selective deafness (or everyone I know say *it's*).


I'm glad you said that. 

Here's what I think (objections by natives are welcome).

A: _You're going to win the prize_
B: _I think it's only fair_. 
B: _I think it only fair_.   
(the latter might be fine in literay contexts, as Loob suggested).

A: _I think it's only fair that I should win the prize._ 
A: _I think it only fair that I should win the prize_ 
(but I'd be more likely to say the former).

I also think using _this_ or _that_ or any other pronoun in the place of _it_ slightly shifts the issue. (as in Forero's example "_I think this queer_")


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## relic5.2

I agree with LV4 and Packard too. "I think it fair" is perfectly acceptable, but like Loob said in post 11, it's quite formal. 

In your last two sentences you could leave out "should" if you want to, too.


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## Biddlesby

Incidentally, I think these phrases sound great when written down, say in a work of literature, but I cannot imagine them being used in speech. Unless perhaps you are the Queen.


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## Loob

Packard said:


> I've always said,
> 
> *I think it's only fair...*


I'm also much more likely to _say_ "I think it's only fair", Mr P. (I might well _write_ "I think it only fair".)

But english999's question (at least as I understood it) was about the structure of "I think it only fair".


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## Packard

Loob said:


> I'm also much more likely to _say_ "I think it's only fair", Mr P. (I might well _write_ "I think it only fair".)
> 
> But english999's question (at least as I understood it) was about the structure of "I think it only fair".


 
If that structure is acceptable it would work with all other adjectives and I don't think it does. It only sounds OK because of the idiom.

*I think it only sinister.*
_or_
*I think it sinister.*


*I think it only clever.*
_or_
*I think it clever.*

To my ear, none of the above work.


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## Loob

To my mind, all of them could work in suitable contexts, MrP. Though it's true that "only fair" is a ready-made collocation, while "only sinister" and "only clever" aren't.

PS Here's a little poem for you with "I think it clever".


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## Packard

Loob said:


> To my mind, all of them could work in suitable contexts, MrP. Though it's true that "only fair" is a ready-made collocation, while "only sinister" and "only clever" aren't.
> 
> PS Here's a little poem for you with "I think it clever".


 
Use of that construction in a poem does not mean it will work in prose. Poetry has its licenses (or Poetry has it licenses?).

*I think it clever of the turtle* (poem), becomes _*I think that it is clever of the turtle*_ (prose).


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## Loob

Packard said:


> *I think it clever of the turtle* (poem *or formal prose*), becomes _*I think that it is clever of the turtle*_ (prose).


We're almost agreeing.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

The way I see it, in a sentence like "I think it only fair... to tell her", the word IT is an anticipatory (=cataphoric) IT, announcing the arrival of "to tell her". We can move " to tell her" to the front of the sentence and we'll obtain "To tell her is only fair, I think".
In "I think it only fair to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did" is the result of a pretty smart operation which, by means of IT makes decent a sentence that would otherwise be rather awkward and heavy:"I think _to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did_ only fair ".
All the best.
GS


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## Forero

Well maybe it's a Southern U.S. thing, but I would certainly say "I think it only fair", and the like, in formal or informal speech.

I might say "I think (that) it's only fair", too, but that does not mean the same as "I think it (to be) only fair." I would surely not say "I consider it's only fair" when I mean "I consider it only fair" or "I find it's fit and proper" when I mean "I find it fit and proper."

I would say "I think it only fair (that) I (should) win the prize" and would not think of adding an _is_/_'s_.

Similarly, "They elected that he be president" makes sense in a way, but "They elected him president" is the norm. "They elected he's president" may be possible too, but that is not at all the same thing.


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## Forero

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> The way I see it, in a sentence like "I think it only fair... to tell her", the word IT is an anticipatory (=cataphoric) IT, announcing the arrival of "to tell her". We can move " to tell her" to the front of the sentence and we'll obtain "To tell her is only fair, I think".
> In "I think it only fair to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did" is the result of a pretty smart operation which, by means of IT makes decent a sentence that would otherwise be rather awkward and heavy:"I think _to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did_ only fair ".
> All the best.
> GS


 I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Loob

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> The way I see it, in a sentence like "I think it only fair... to tell her", the word IT is an anticipatory (=cataphoric) IT, announcing the arrival of "to tell her".


You're right, of course, Giorgio, and I endorse Forero's .

But this construction can also be used anaphorically, as a reference to something said earlier:
_Do you think he should be be imprisoned, Holmes?_
_I think it only fair, Watson._


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## english999

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> The way I see it, in a sentence like "I think it only fair... to tell her", the word IT is an anticipatory (=cataphoric) IT, announcing the arrival of "to tell her". We can move " to tell her" to the front of the sentence and we'll obtain "To tell her is only fair, I think".
> In "I think it only fair to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did" is the result of a pretty smart operation which, by means of IT makes decent a sentence that would otherwise be rather awkward and heavy:"I think _to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did_ only fair ".
> All the best.
> GS



"I think _to let them know that they shouldn't have behaved the way they did_ *IS* only fair ".


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## english999

Forero said:


> I might say "I think (that) it's only fair", too, but that does not mean the same as "I think it (to be) only fair." I would surely not say *"I consider it's only fair" when I mean "I consider it only fair"* or "I find it's fit and proper" when I mean "I find it fit and proper."


That was a brilliant example, Forero. Thanks, bro.


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## english999

Loob said:


> To my mind, all of them could work in suitable contexts, MrP. Though it's true that "only fair" is a ready-made collocation, while "only sinister" and "only clever" aren't.
> 
> PS Here's a little poem for you with "I think it clever".



_The turtle lives twixt plated decks
Which practically conceal its sex.
I think it clever of the turtle
In such a fix to be so fertile[/SIZE][/SIZE]_

That's a good one.


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## mjscott

I think it only fair to see
The link Loob chained to poetry.
I also think it fair for those
Who opt to use it in their prose.


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## Loob

!


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## english999

mjscott said:


> I think it only fair to see
> The link Loob chained to poetry.
> I also think it fair for those
> Who opt to use its in their prose.



But wouldn't you think it kind of gay?


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## Loob

english999 said:


> But wouldn't you think it kind of gay?


 
No - just formal/literary,


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## english999

Loob said:


> No - just formal/literary,



No he said in ordinary speeches.


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## english999

But wait a minute,
I said 'wouldn't you think it kind of gay' 
Is IT still considered anticipatory here? 
I get the feeling this is like the other example of one considers something,_
I consider it kind of gay. Or wouldn't you consider it...?_

What do you think?


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## mjscott

Would you consider it quite gay
To fashion sentences this way--
--Rework the verbage, stretch, or crop, or
Find its usage over-proper?


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## LV4-26

english999 said:


> But wait a minute,
> I said 'wouldn't you think it kind of gay'
> Is IT still considered anticipatory here?
> I get the feeling this is like the other example of one considers something,_
> I consider it kind of gay. Or wouldn't you consider it...?_
> 
> What do you think?


You're right.

If you take "_I think it only fair_" (or _I think it kind of gay_) as a standalone sentence, then the "_it_" refers to something that was mentioned previously.

But if you take sentences such as...
_I think it only fair *to* tell her_ OR
_I think it only fair *that* we (should) tell her_ OR
_We think it only fair *that* We be awarded the prize _(I think Biddlesby mentioned the Queen earlier  )
...then this "_it_" becomes an anticipatory/introductory _it_, that refers to something that's defined in the subsequent subordinate clause, whether it's an infinitive clause (_to tell her_) or an ordinary complement clause (_that......._.), as Giorgio rightly suggested.

Which is why I said using "_this_" or "_that_" makes a difference in that, unlike _it_, they can rarely be _anticipatory_. (well, _this_ at least can -- always in a formal register --, but we don't want to muddy the waters too much, do we?)


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## stallion

LV4-26 said:


> I'm glad you said that.
> 
> Here's what I think (objections by natives are welcome).
> 
> A: _You're going to win the prize_
> B: _I think it's only fair_.
> B: _I think it only fair_.
> (the latter might be fine in literay contexts, as Loob suggested).
> 
> A: _I think it's only fair that I should win the prize._
> A: _I think it only fair that I should win the prize_
> (but I'd be more likely to say the former).
> 
> I also think using _this_ or _that_ or any other pronoun in the place of _it_ slightly shifts the issue. (as in Forero's example "_I think this queer_")


 
Hi everyone,

This is a fun one...

Leaving or saying it without the "that" & "is" is a question of geography. Some consider it more elegant/literary, that's all.

I think it only fair, I think it only natural, etc., etc., etc.


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## tripfantasy

I hope to revive this thread with a related question.

My co-worker brought this sentence to me:

_It would be better yet to pick the faces that one thinks others are most likely to think that others think are the prettiest.
_
I believe that one can make the sentence without the final "are," i.e.,

_It would be better yet to pick the faces that one thinks others are most likely to think that others think the prettiest.
_
Am I incorrect? If I am correct, why am I correct?


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## boozer

The sentence is so convoluted that I find it hard to decide whether or not it is permissible to skip 'are'. I personally would most definitely keep it for clarity though.


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## Nunty

Welcome to the forums, tripfantasy. 

I agree with boozer about your sentence. Could you offer another, more straightforward sentence to illustrate your question?


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