# Norwegian: trettendedel/trettendel



## timtfj

Hello,

I'm trying to fill in some of the gaps in my vocabulary and am now looking at the words for fractions.

For fractions from _n_/3 to _n_/12, I understand that there are two forms, and I'm happy with those:


1/3 = _en *tredel*_ or _en *tredjedel *_("a three-part" or "a third-part")
3/5 = _tre *femdel*er_ or _tre *femtedel*er_
7/12 = _sju *tolvdel*er_ or _sju *tolvtedel*er_

Above 12 however, my two books disagree:

Louis Janus, _Norwegian Verbs and Essentials of Grammar_ (1998) says that above 12, only the shorter version is used:


1/13 = _en *trettendel*_ (not _en *trettendedel*_)
7/20 = _sju *tjuedel*er_ (not _sju *tjuendedel*er_)

On the other hand, Åse-Berit & Rolf Strandskrogen, _Norwegian: An Essential Grammar_ (? 1989) gives only the longer version. Its examples are _*en trettendedel*_ and _*en fjortendedel*._ The book is, however, very badly printed with many layout errors, so I wouldn't be surprised if these are typos.

Finally, Bokmålsordboka (which I use online) includes both forms, at least up to _tjuedel_ / _tjuendedel_.

So I've two questions.


Is there in fact a rule about fractions above 1/12, or is there a choice between fjortendel / fjortendedel etc.? Is it a rule or just a style convention?
If there is a rule, which way round is it?

Thanks!


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## NorwegianNYC

There is quite a lot of confusion regarding this in Norway as well. The basic rule is to use CARDINAL numbers as denominator, hence "en tredel", "to sjudeler" etc. This also applies for numbers above 12. Some might disagree to this, but this is based on the old counting system for fraction which was based on ordinal numbers.

If you stick with the cardinal counting, you'll be safe


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## Ben Jamin

NorwegianNYC said:


> There is quite a lot of confusion regarding this in Norway as well. The basic rule is to use CARDINAL numbers as denominator, hence "en tredel", "to sjudeler" etc. This also applies for numbers above 12. Some might disagree to this, but this is based on the old counting system for fraction which was based on ordinal numbers.
> 
> If you stick with the cardinal counting, you'll be safe


This is a surprise to me. When I learned Norwegian 30 years ago nobody mentioned the alternative with cardinal numbers. It was not used in media either. That's why I was sure it was a modern turn of the language change.


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## timtfj

NorwegianNYC said:


> There is quite a lot of confusion regarding this in Norway as well. The basic rule is to use CARDINAL numbers as denominator, hence "en tredel", "to sjudeler" etc. This also applies for numbers above 12. Some might disagree to this, but this is based on the old counting system for fraction which was based on ordinal numbers.
> 
> If you stick with the cardinal counting, you'll be safe



Hmmm. My aim is to understand everything about the language as fully as possible, so learning one form while neglecting the other doesn't seem to me like being safe.  I need to know both and to understand their status.

 So . . . Do you mean that the system has changed from ordinals (old system) to cardinals (new system) and that today one should avoid ordinals even below 13? So (for example) _femtedel_ would seem old fashioned nowadays and should be _femdel_? Much like _enogtyve_ should now be _tjueto_?

The version in Janus (1998, i.e. 14 years ago) is



> Fractions with denominators between 3 and 12 have two forms, one with the ordinal and one with the cardinal [. . .]
> Fractions with denominators greater than 12 use only the cardinal.



That's different but makes sense if there's been a switch.



Ben Jamin said:


> When I learned Norwegian 30 years ago nobody mentioned the alternative with cardinal numbers. It was not used in media either. That's why I was sure it was a modern turn of the language change.



Do you mean that not even cardinals up to 12 were mentioned, or just that they weren't mentioned above 12? Either way, that makes sense of the older of my two books.

Trying to put things in chronological order:


Ben Jamin, learning in the 1980s: *ordinals only*
Strandskogen & Strandskoken, 1989: Up to 12: cardinals or ordinals. *Above 12: ordinals only
*
Janus, 1998: Up to 12: cardinals or ordinals. *Above 12: cardinals only*
NorwegianNYC, now: *cardinals only
*


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## vestfoldlilja

I don’t know the rules regarding this, but I would personally never say _femdel_ or _trettendel_. I would always say *femtedel* and *trettendedel.* I would use those endings regardless of the number, under or above 12. I can't say I remember hearing people use _femdel_ and _trettendel_, but perhaps I just haven taken notice of it. To me it sounds quite strange.


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## timtfj

vestfoldlilja said:


> I don’t know the rules regarding this, but I would personally never say _femdel_ or _trettendel_. I would always say *femtedel* and *trettendedel.* I would use those endings regardless of the number, under or above 12. I can't say I remember hearing people use _femdel_ and _trettendel_, but perhaps I just haven taken notice of it. To me it sounds quite strange.


That's the end of my nice tidy theory, then! 

It seems both forms are alive and well, but that I should maybe treat the cardinals (_femdel_, _trettendel_ etc) as more "officially correct". I probably also need to treat all prescriptive rules on it as being rather suspect.


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## GraaEminense

Just chiming in to (mostly) agree with vestfoldlilja: I would normally use the long forms (and I use 'enogtyve' rather than 'tjueen' without being a senior citizen ). I wouldn't raise an eyebrow no matter what version was used.


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## NorwegianNYC

Hi,

The correct modern form is "en femdel" etc, but as I said above, there is a lot of confusion regarding how to pronounce fractions in Norwegian since both the 'old' form (en femtedel) and the new form (en femdel) are being used. It is sort of like the counting system. Many still use the "backwards" counting ('enogfemti', and not 'femtién') although it has not been official since 1952. The official form (which you will hear on the news) is "en tredel", but no one is going to hold it against you if you say "en tredjedel"


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## vestfoldlilja

I decided to check Språkrådet to learn more, and according to them the main rule is to use cardinal numbers, but with an exception; in numbers up to twelve one can also use ordinal numbers. 

Link: http://www.sprakrad.no/nb-NO/Sprakhjelp/Skriveregler_og_grammatikk/Tall/#brøk (in Norwegian)

I think people will say fractions in the way that feels most natural to them, and as pretty much anything else in Norwegian it will differ for dialect to dialect and person to person. So my advice would be to use the version that feels more natural to you.


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