# Police brutality and crimes in your country



## Setwale_Charm

Hi!
This has little to do with the languages (if only foul language at some point) but as long as we discuss things so remotely relating to linguistics in this section. 

I have been working with the issues of police violence, rape and torture for quite a while. The situation in Russia and the former Soviet Republics is more than horrifying and can only be compared to war times. Yet, I believe, it is more than just a problem of the police, it is far more universal. 
The situation in Turkey which I recently had an opportunity to catch a glimpse of is even worse. The Turkish police system seems to be absolute hell. So here is a special question to our Turkish foreros : how do feel about it living in your country?
However, in Germany or the UK or France the police are on the whole entirely different. 
But all of you, how much of it do you see in your country? Have you ever come across anything of the kind? What do you think is to be done about it?
Mind you, I am not talking of the cases when the police had injured somebody through overestimating their physical strength while dealing with a crowd, blindely, so to speak. I am talking of the conscious premeditated crimes, such as rape, kidnapping, money extortion, torture with a view to obtaining the property of the victim etc etc


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## Hakro

It never happens in Finland, absolutely never.


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## Nunty

I've lived about 2/3 of my life in Israel and about 1/3 in the USA. There is so much to say about both countries, that I don't even know where to start. In the US torture of suspects happens, but is only acknowledged to have happened in the past (up to about the 1970s or so) in general. This is not with a view to obtaining the victim's money property, and is generally not even excused by that... can't find an adjective strong enough... "ticking bomb" excuse. (The obvious exception is, of course, under the current Bush administration.) In the US, it has traditionally been racially motivated, though I am personally aware of a certain amount of politically motivated torture during the student anti-war movement of the 1970s and of isolated cases of sexually motivated rape and torture of male and female suspects.

In Israel the situation is hot and this topic is so current, that I feel utterly unable to comment.

This makes me so sad and angry.


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## Etcetera

Surprisingly enough, I, having spent the whole of my life in Russia, never experienced any troubles with police. Even when I was once summoned to the local branch of the police division which deals with economic crimes (in Russian it is called Управление по борьбе с экономическими преступлениями; Setwale Charm, maybe you'll help me to translate this name into English?), the officials' attitude towards me was indeed friendly. Even though they couldn't be absolutely sure I hadn't committed the crime I was suspected of.
In fact, I believe that the situation isn't that terrible.


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## Mate

Etchecolatz was the Commissioner General of Police and the right-hand man of Police Chief Ramón Camps. He served as Director of Investigations of the provincial police from March 1976 until late 1977. During his period in office, Buenos Aires Province had the highest number of illegal detentions in the country. In particular, Etchecolatz was second in command during the Night of the Pencils, when several students were detained and then tortured and murdered.

Source: Wikipedia

Saludos - Mate


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## Outsider

Setwale_Charm said:


> But all of you, how much of it do you see in your country? Have you ever come across anything of the kind? What do you think is to be done about it?
> Mind you, I am not talking of the cases when the police had injured somebody through overestimating their physical strength while dealing with a crowd, blindely, so to speak. I am talking of the conscious premeditated crimes, such as rape, kidnapping, money extortion, torture with a view to obtaining the property of the victim etc etc


I have never had any problems, myself, nor anyone I know, but I have heard some stories.

This last year, there was a mysterious string of suicides (?) of inmates in Portuguese prisons that left me wondering. All I know about it is what I heard in the news, though. Still, the kind of stuff you ask about does not seem to be all that common around here.

The biggest problem today seems to be overcrowded, obsolete jails ridden with drugs and AIDS -- but no one ever talks much about that.

Amnesty International Report


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## übermönch

In Germany, police officers only sporadically shoot random people  generally they're rude, they suffer an inferiority complex and their brutality is well known all around europe. It's not that I ever was brutalized, but that's what we get to hear. There is no _torture _or _corruption_, only_ 'legal' _crimes - beating someone resisting arrest to death, shooting an escaping suspect and stuff alike. When there happens something illegal, there usually is a public outcry, and people lose their jobs. 

EDIT:
amnesty international report:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/deu-summary-eng


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## Setwale_Charm

übermönch said:


> In Germany, police officers only sporadically shoot random people  generally they're rude, they suffer an inferiority complex and their brutality is well known all around europe. It's not that I ever was brutalized, but that's what we get to hear. There is no _torture _or _corruption_, only_ 'legal' _crimes - beating someone resisting arrest to death, shooting an escaping suspect and stuff alike. When there happens something illegal, there usually is a public outcry, and people lose their jobs.
> 
> EDIT:
> amnesty international report:
> http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/deu-summary-eng


 
Hands off them!!! I am in love with German policemen!!  The best men in the world, I enjoy being "protected" by them.


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## ireney

There have been complaints about the Greek police but nothing like what you seem to alledge to. Police brutality seems to exist. Here too any incident for even alledged police brutality is met by the public outcry (we don't wait for the verdict; in the past (prior to the 70's the policemen were out to get any protester they found and torturing political -and other- prisoners was more or less the norm. Things like this leave a deep trauma and a general mistrust toward the good-will of the police)

Here's the amnesty international report for 2002


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## Setwale_Charm

Nun-Translator said:


> In Israel the situation is hot and this topic is so current, that I feel utterly unable to comment.
> 
> This makes me so sad and angry.


 

 Could you possibly elaborate a bit on that? Do you mean the Israeli policy against terrorism or the treatment of its own citizens?
 What about the ISraeli Army?


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## Kajjo

übermönch said:


> In Germany, police officers [...] generally are rude, they suffer an inferiority complex and their brutality is well known all around europe.


I have a totally contrary perception of the German police. Generally, the common people trust their police officers and vice versa. I always had very pleasant contact with the police. I believe that police brutality and corruption are at the lowest possible range of all countries. I can say that I am glad that we have such a reliable and trustworthy police force.

Certainly, criminals resisting arrest, demonstrators "throwing the first stone" or other offenders are dealt with the German efficiency -- but who objects to that?



> shooting an escaping suspect and stuff alike. When there happens something illegal, there usually is a public outcry, and people lose their jobs.


Exactly. This happens _extremely rarely_ and if it does happen, the public outcry is so tremendous that everyone notices it and talks about it. That is very positive evidence for the rarity of such occurences. You had the correct observations but made the wrong conclusions.

Kajjo


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## Nunty

Setwale_Charm said:


> Could you possibly elaborate a bit on that? Do you mean the Israeli policy against terrorism or the treatment of its own citizens?
> What about the ISraeli Army?



It really is difficult for me to elaborate. Many, many of the Arabs who are arrested are Israeli citizens, for example. I am an Israeli citizen, too. I love my country and it makes me cry (quite literally) when I see what is being done. (As a metaphor: when someone you love is going down the wrong road, it is very painful to watch.)

Beatings and torture are used against both criminal and terrorism suspects, and even against "illegal aliens" (mostly foreign workers who have significantly over-stayed their visas). Perhaps slightly less now than in the past because the courts have started to throw out some of the "confessions" obtained through torture or "coercive questioning". Some, not all. Based on what I read in the newspaper and on conversations with people who have been both victims and perpetrators, I would say that the practice is no longer routine, but it is far from rare.

A few years ago our supreme court ruled that the General Security Service (what foreigners call the Shin-Bet) had to stop torturing. They did stop for about five minutes. It is now widely covered in the mainstream press, lawsuits are being filed and won by the victims, _but they are not stopping!_

With regard to the army: the army performs many policing functions, and vice versa. The lines are fuzzy, which is an invitation to abuse.

There are many ways in which the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian population is targeted, abused, and discriminated against. One of the worst of these is the disproportionate number of Arabs who are victims of police/army torture. Jews, however, are also victims.

I hate this. There are so many wonderful things about my country, and this is so, so wrong.


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## Lusitania

Like Outsider said, prison guards are really weird beings. Prisons could be worse but could be better. They are overcrowed because justice is slow. On another hand we have probably the best model of pre-deportation centres for detainees pending a removal order.

About police itself we have the PSP for urban areas and GNR for more rural areas, although both have special forces units. We also have the Judiciary Police to investigate more complex and organized crimes. There are quite well prepared, they have lots of trainings and they speak several languages.

I've worked closely with the police and I must say that I met some outstanding people as I've met some really dangerous and disgusting characters. Regarding police brutality there aren't any cases reported in the last years, some "twisted hands" on pedophile cases. 
Also as lawyer I've never heard detainees speak up about the use of physical force nor my colleagues. 

What's really concerns me is corruption. There is a lot of corruption and the Portuguese people are to be blamed. Cases that we had, trials, that ended up as nothing, we should go out more often and make some noise and demand that this people would be fired.

Inside the police there are people who wish to kick them out and others say they'll be worst outside the force and on the inside they can keep an eye on them. 
This government says that they shall "clean the house" from January on. Lets wait and see.


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## lampiao

Like Outs and Lusitania have said, I have no knowledge of police brutality over here, nor have I ever had any trouble with the police.
Actually, I do think that, particularly the media, but some gov.mental entities also, do a lot to discredit the police and their work.

This happens a lot with the media, who often portray police as "the bad guys". I clearly remember watching a piece of news where they were talking about an officer who had overpowered a suspect and put his face on the floor, etc, etc, and the reporter was interviewing the guy's mother, who was saying "He wasn't doing anything wrong!..."
As it turns out he was trying to break into a car!

Local Police elements are generally good people, althogh there are black sheep in every line of work.


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## invictaspirit

The British police are in general quite civilised compared to most countries.

I wish I could join the Finnish forero in saying that police brutality _never_ happens here. It does...but compared to most countries, including many in Europe, it is on a low level.

There are famous and much debated exceptions of course: the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes (an innocent Brazilian immigrant mistaken for a suicide bomber).

My dealings with the police have always been reasonable, friendly and polite.  They are harsher with people who give them a hard time.


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## Setwale_Charm

Kajjo said:


> I have a totally contrary perception of the German police. Generally, the common people trust their police officers and vice versa. I always had very pleasant contact with the police. I believe that police brutality and corruption are at the lowest possible range of all countries. I can say that I am glad that we have such a reliable and trustworthy police force.
> 
> Certainly, criminals resisting arrest, demonstrators "throwing the first stone" or other offenders are dealt with the German efficiency -- but who objects to that?
> 
> Exactly. This happens _extremely rarely_ and if it does happen, the public outcry is so tremendous that everyone notices it and talks about it. That is very positive evidence for the rarity of such occurences. You had the correct observations but made the wrong conclusions.
> 
> Kajjo


 
 Despite the fact that they curse with mysterious phrases and resort to pedagogical spanking 
 But, I must say, that you are right. Whether it is the German police or the German army I was amazed by the level of their discipline and the severity of punishment for violating it. I even felt it was a bit unfair on them, they are required to be almost infallible.


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## Setwale_Charm

invictaspirit said:


> The British police are in general quite civilised compared to most countries.
> 
> I wish I could join the Finnish forero in saying that police brutality _never_ happens here. It does...but compared to most countries, including many in Europe, it is on a low level.
> 
> There are famous and much debated exceptions of course: the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes (an innocent Brazilian immigrant mistaken for a suicide bomber).
> 
> My dealings with the police have always been reasonable, friendly and polite. They are harsher with people who give them a hard time.


 
Well, I would say it is rather a case of a grave mistake, not actual deliberate violence.

Russia is awful in this respect. I have been to many countries with major trouble in the course of my life but either it is that you do not quite expect from a non-Third World country or that things are just too bad, I do not know. What upsets me is that it is not just the North Caucasus where I see that and where it has been a norm since ever, but it is spreading all over Russia. Many policemen spend their obligatory practice time in Chechnya and return having borrowed the local methods and beginning to effectively apply them at home. One thing is: there is no psychological rehabilitation programmes in Russia for policemen, soldiers (or anybody else for that matter) and this has to do with another typical mentality feature which I will not dwell on too much here. 
I am glad Etcetera has not encountered anything of that yet, God bless, that would a complete disgrace if she had! But I suppose, you have heard of Galdetsky`s case - the young man who had discovered the common practice of the police in the Moscow metro picking pretty girls out of the crowd and gang-raping them. He started investigating on his own but was shot and crippled for life. This is what makes me so angry: they know far too well whom to pick out as a victim and they always do so with young girls, teenagers, children, immigrants. yep, there are loads of illegal immigrants who need to be dealt with but they are just asked for bribes nothing more. Yet they are so cowardly when you display any knowledge of your rights and decision to act.


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## marcos_ipn

well, in Mexico, the police a lot of time was the political instrument that controled the population of Mexico city and general all the country during the PRI`s goverment, I remember someone said names like "El Negro Durazo" who was the managment of mexican segurity sistem and Policemen and all the mexican who all today have more of mmm 35 years old remember the time when judicial police did the volunted and no-one cant stop them.
So all today the Judicial Police have a terrible concept and a lot of people (specially mothers and fathers) say to young people "take care about them", the power of the police in Mexico every day is less (incluiding the bad things) but the true is that all today the mexicans have a police who do abuses of the citizen but it`s no easier like in the past.


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## maxiogee

There was a notorious period here in Ireland when there was a group of police officers who were known as the heavy gang. They tended to deal with subversive criminals - the IRA and their ilk. They came to notoriety and were 'reprimanded' and we are, I suppose, to presume that they stopped being bold. I imagine the reprimanding took the form of "Don't get caught again!"
I have no reason to believce that suspects don't get ill-treated occasionally.
Our prisons are as over-crowded as many other countries and prison-officers are as over-worked, but we hear few, if any, complaints from prisoners - or ex-prisoners about their behaviour.
Drugs appear to be rampant in our prisons and conspiracy theorists would have us believe that the authorities are complicit by default in this - as a drugged-up prisoner is a more docile one. I have no basis for making a decision on this.


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## Kajjo

Setwale_Charm said:


> Despite the fact that they curse with mysterious phrases and resort to pedagogical spanking.


As far as regards the spanking, I have no experience with it. Naturally, I am glad you have had and enjoyed it. 



> I even felt it was a bit unfair on them, they are required to be almost infallible.


Yes, single instances are much overrated and a good policeman is always in danger of stepping over a line drawn sometimes to close. But all in all, the German police force does very well and is liked by the population. That's much more than can be said of many other countries.

Kajjo


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## michelmontescuba

Setwale_Charm said:


> I am talking of the conscious premeditated crimes, such as rape, kidnapping, money extortion, torture with a view to obtaining the property of the victim etc etc


No such thing in Cuba.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

michelmontescuba said:


> No such thing in Cuba.



I really don't know anything about the situation in Cuba as regards this, but I can't help wondering whether you forgot to add the snark tag to this comment.


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## michelmontescuba

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> I really don't know anything about the situation in Cuba as regards this, but I can't help wondering whether you forgot to add the snark tag to this comment.


I didn't forget anything, but you may ask whatever you want about Cuba and I'll give you my honest opinion. Other than what you already asked, do you have any particular question regarding this particular issue? Anything you want to talk about in a more profound way?


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

michelmontescuba said:


> I didn't forget anything, but you may ask whatever you want about Cuba and I'll give you my honest opinion. Other than what you already asked, do you have any particular question regarding this particular issue? Anything you want to talk about in a more profound way?



No.


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## apmoy70

I was quite surprised that in most US States, the average time required for a trainee to be named Police Officer is 21 weeks (!) which is unthinkable to me. In my country, it's 156 weeks to become a constable, and 208 weeks to become an officer; and despite all that, we have had our share of police brutality incidents during the last 2-3 years. And the procedure of acquiring a firearm (handgun) here is extremely draconian (there's no way one can acquire a semi-automatic rifle legally), for shooting sports (dynamic shooting) only bolt-action is available. I cannot fathom the stress a US police officer must be feeling when's coming face to face with a suspect. How does one overcome the heat of the moment and manages to control his/her stress? How can under such pressure one's able to de-escalate?


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## michelmontescuba

apmoy70 said:


> I cannot fathom the stress a US police officer must be feeling when's coming face to face with a suspect. How does one overcome the heat of the moment and manages to control his/her stress? How can under such pressure one's able to de-escalate?


How about not escalating the situation themselves and giving contradictory orders so as to create the opportunity to have their gunshot orgasms? How about not always aiming for the stomach, chest and head? How about not shooting people in the back seven times or killing people for running away like running was a crime punishable by death? How about aming at non-lethal parts of the body like legs or using non-lethal weapons like stun guns? How about not kneeling on people's necks for nine minutes until they're dead. How about not allowing that more than 99% of police officers that assassinate people walk free without even been indicted? I cannot fathom the stress of being a black American and coming face to face with a police officer and knowing you could die any minute or thinkin "what if I sneeze and die a horrible death?".


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## apmoy70

michelmontescuba said:


> How about not escalating the situation themselves and giving contradictory orders so as to create the opportunity to have their gunshot orgasms? How about not always aiming for the stomach, chest and head? How about not shooting people in the back seven times or killing people for running away like running was a crime punishable by death? How about aming at non-lethal parts of the body like legs or using non-lethal weapons like stun guns? How about not kneeling on people's necks for nine minutes until they're dead. How about not allowing that more than 99% of police officers that assassinate people walk free without even been indicted? I cannot fathom the stress of being a black American and coming face to face with a police officer and knowing you could die any minute or thinkin "what if I sneeze and die a horrible death?".


Agreed. But in order to do that, you need the correct training. Having your heart pumping at 140-160 heart beats pm, and being terrified by the situation you're in, with a gun in your hands, won't help you de-escalate. 6-7 months of training aren't enough.


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## michelmontescuba

apmoy70 said:


> Agreed. But in order to do that, you need the correct training. Having your heart pumping at 140-160 heart beats pm, and being terrified by the situation you're in, with a gun in your hands, won't help you de-escalate. 6-7 months of training aren't enough.


Sorry but training is not the main problem. The problem is impunity, not having a revolutionary police reform that prohibits police officer from shooting people that run away, or shooting people in lethal parts of the body unless absolutely necessary. The problem is not imposing mandatory stun guns for certain scenarios, the no prohibition of unwarranted or unnecessary use of excessive force and severely punishing cops for killing or injuring people unnecessarily, especially when their is proof enough of their wrong doing. Cops shouldn't think they can kill people, especially non-whites without serious consequences etc. That would be a good start. Then you need to train cops well of course.

By the way, in many situations, the heart of police officers is really steady and they are really calmed inside. Many of them are just racist psychopaths with a license to kill at will.


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## zaffy

Setwale_Charm said:


> However, in Germany or the UK or France the police are on the whole entirely different.


In France? Have you seen how brutal the police were with the yellow vest protesters?
Have you seen people severely attacked by police dogs in the Neverthelands?


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