# Present passive endings of οδηγώ, συγχωρώ et al



## kevin-f

New-ish to Greek and now getting to grips with passive voice stuff ... Main grammar book I'm using splits second-conjugation verbs into Β1 = those that have an '-άω' variant (μιλάω, αγαπάω, ...) and Β2 = those that don't (οδηγώ, συγχωρώ, ...). For the first group it gives present passive endings of -ιέμαι, -ιέσαι, -ιέται, -όμαστε, -ιέστε, -ιούνται - which corresponds to what I find with various online resources - and for the second, endings of -ούμαι/άμαι, -άσαι, -άται, -όμαστε, -άστε, -ούνται. For various reasons I'm trying to find a B2 verb with an active and passive use. But looking at verbs like οδηγώ, I keep finding they use what it calls the 'archaic' endings (-ούμαι, -είσαι, -είται, -ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται). Τhe only examples I can find with endings like -άται are deponent verbs like κοιμάμαι . Ιs this some kind of rule, i.e. all B2 verbs use the archaic endings if they're not deponent? Thanks in advance for any insights.


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## sotos

I don't think there is such a general rule, because many verbs can be both -άω and -ώ type (e.g. οδηγώ and οδηγάω, κυνηγώ and κυνηγάω), the difference being that suffix -ώ is more formal or katharevoussa ("archaic"). Btw, κοιμάμαι can also be κοιμούμαι.


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## kevin-f

sotos said:


> I don't think there is such a general rule, because many verbs can be both -άω and -ώ type (e.g. οδηγώ and οδηγάω, κυνηγώ and κυνηγάω), the difference being that suffix -ώ is more formal or katharevoussa ("archaic"). Btw, κοιμάμαι can also be κοιμούμαι.


Well, to clarify, the verbs that can be both -άω and -ώ are those referred to as B1 by this grammar, i.e. verbs whose 2nd person singular present ending is -άς ... so I'm asking if there is any B2 verb (meaning, ends in -ώ and whose 2nd person singular present is -είς rather than -άς) that has an active use and also uses the supposedly 'normal' passive endings (-ούμαι/άμαι, -άσαι, -άται, -όμαστε, -άστε, -ούνται) rather than the 'archaic' ones ...


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## sotos

I thought of the verb τηρώ (from which συντηρώ, παρατηρώ etc) that can be only -ώ and not -άω , and the passive is -ούμαι, -είσαι, -είται, - ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται.
The verb επιμελούμαι is deponent (if i m not terribly mistaken) and it goes -είσαι, -είται, - ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται.


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## kevin-f

sotos said:


> I thought of the verb τηρώ (from which συντηρώ, παρατηρώ etc) that can be only -ώ and not -άω , and the passive is -ούμαι, -είσαι, -είται, - ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται.
> The verb επιμελούμαι is deponent (if i m not terribly mistaken) and it goes -είσαι, -είται, - ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται.


Right, so, here's the thing: those are the endings this grammar refers to as 'archaic'. As I say, I can't find any B2 verb that uses what this grammar calls the 'normal' B2 endings and that also has an active meaning ... and that just seems very weird ... If you know of any B2 verb (ends in -ώ and whose 2nd person singular present is -είς) that has an active meaning and whose passive endings are -ούμαι/άμαι, -άσαι, -άται, -όμαστε, -άστε, -ούνται, I'd be really pleased to know! Thanks.


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## ioanell

kevin-f said:


> those are the endings this grammar refers to as 'archaic'.


Although these endings come down from the ancient era, they are normal verb endings in Modern Greek. I’m afraid your grammar book is missing some things.
Passive endings -ούμαι/άμαι, -άσαι, -άται, -όμαστε/-ούμαστε, -άστε, -ούνται are not the normal B2 endings, but only endings of deponent verbs, like κοιμούμαι/κοιμάμαι, φοβούμαι/φοβάμαι, λυπούμαι/λυπάμαι, θυμούμαι/θυμάμαι. The normal B2 passive endings are -ούμαι, -είσαι, -είται in the singular, and -ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται in the plural.



kevin-f said:


> If you know of any B2 verb (ends in -ώ and whose 2nd person singular present is -είς) that has an active meaning


Active voice
θεωρώ (π.χ. κάτι αυτονόητο) / Ι take something as self-evident,                       θεωρείς,                                                                                                               θεωρεί,                                                                                                       θεωρούμε,                                                                                                   θεωρείτε,                                                                                                     θεωρούν

Passive voice
θεωρούμαι (π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος) / I am considered as self-taught,                   θεωρείσαι,                                                                                                   θεωρείται,                                                                                                 θεωρούμαστε,                                                                                             θεωρείστε,                                                                                               θεωρούνται

Verbs conjugated like θεωρώ: κινώ, πληροφορώ, μισώ, αδικώ, επαινώ etc

Note: Some verbs of the 2nd conjugation, such as οδηγώ, can be conjugated according to both _taxeis_ (τάξεις), B1 and B2. E.g. οδηγάω και οδηγώ, οδηγάς και οδηγείς, οδηγάει και οδηγεί, οδηγάμε και οδηγούμε, οδηγάτε και οδηγείτε, οδηγάν(ε) και οδηγούν. The same happens with verbs in the passive voice, like βοηθιέμαι και βοηθούμαι, αδικιέμαι και αδικούμαι. The difference is that using these verbs according to B1 is considered more informal style, the B2 being more careful speech.


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## amiramir

ioanell said:


> θεωρούμαι (π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος) / I am considered as self-taught



Can this also mean I consider myself self-taught? Or would that be θεωρώ τον εαυτό μου αυτοδίδακτο ?

Edit: changed autodidaktos from nominative to accusative to agree with the object ton eauto mou


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## kevin-f

ioanell said:


> Although these endings come down from the ancient era, they are normal verb endings in Modern Greek. I’m afraid your grammar book is missing some things.
> Passive endings -ούμαι/άμαι, -άσαι, -άται, -όμαστε/-ούμαστε, -άστε, -ούνται are not the normal B2 endings, but only endings of deponent verbs, like κοιμούμαι/κοιμάμαι, φοβούμαι/φοβάμαι, λυπούμαι/λυπάμαι, θυμούμαι/θυμάμαι. The normal B2 passive endings are -ούμαι, -είσαι, -είται in the singular, and -ούμαστε, -είστε, -ούνται in the plural.
> 
> 
> Active voice
> θεωρώ (π.χ. κάτι αυτονόητο) / Ι take something as self-evident,                       θεωρείς,                                                                                                               θεωρεί,                                                                                                       θεωρούμε,                                                                                                   θεωρείτε,                                                                                                     θεωρούν
> 
> Passive voice
> θεωρούμαι (π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος) / I am considered as self-taught,                   θεωρείσαι,                                                                                                   θεωρείται,                                                                                                 θεωρούμαστε,                                                                                             θεωρείστε,                                                                                               θεωρούνται
> 
> Verbs conjugated like θεωρώ: κινώ, πληροφορώ, μισώ, αδικώ, επαινώ etc
> 
> Note: Some verbs of the 2nd conjugation, such as οδηγώ, can be conjugated according to both _taxeis_ (τάξεις), B1 and B2. E.g. οδηγάω και οδηγώ, οδηγάς και οδηγείς, οδηγάει και οδηγεί, οδηγάμε και οδηγούμε, οδηγάτε και οδηγείτε, οδηγάν(ε) και οδηγούν. The same happens with verbs in the passive voice, like βοηθιέμαι και βοηθούμαι, αδικιέμαι και αδικούμαι. The difference is that using these verbs according to B1 is considered more informal style, the B2 being more careful speech.


Ah, that explains a lot, thank you! I'm actually working with three different grammar books, but only one of them spells out (or tries to) what the passive B1/B2 endings are ... this explanation helps my notes make more sense. Thanks again!


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## ioanell

ioanell said:


> θεωρούμαι (π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος) / I am considered as self-taught





amiramir said:


> Can this also mean I consider myself self-taught? Or would that be θεωρώ τον εαυτό μου αυτοδίδακτος ?


No, the passive sentence “θεωρούμαι (π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος)” is not equivalent to the active sentence “θεωρώ τον εαυτό μου π.χ. αυτοδίδακτο”. Of course, one can use the active sentence, when chatting with others, but this might some times imply that perhaps there are some doubts on the part of other people (that is whether s/he is really self-taught; so, we usually say “I am self-taught” (because I know for sure, if I am self-taught). In a construction with the passive voice, viz. θεωρούμαι π.χ. αυτοδίδακτος, an agent is either explicitly used or implied (e.g. από όλους, από κάποιους, από άλλους ανθρώπους, etc).


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## Αγγελος

The confusion goes back to the first 'official' grammar of δημοτική, the Νεοελληνική Γραμματική (της Δημοτικής) commissioned by the Metaxas government, drafted by a committee under Prof. Μανόλης Τριανταφυλλίδης and published in 1941. That grammar gave θυμούμαι as the model of "second conjugation, second class" passive and only mentioned στερούμαι/στερείσαι/στερείται etc. in passing, as follows:


In fact, only four or five verbs follow the θυμούμαι paradigm, while the "μερικά λόγια ρήματα" that follow the στερούμαι paradigm are far more numerous.
In addition, one can encounter vestiges of the ancient paradigms in -ώμαι (εξαρτώμαι/εξαρτάσαι/εξαρτάται/εξαρτώνται -- but the 1. and 2. person plural are avoided, and the imperfect, if formed at all, will likely be εξαρτιόμουν/εξαρτιόσουν /εξαρτιόταν etc.) and even of the third class of ancient contracted verbs (δικαιούμαι/δικαιούσαι/δικαιούται = be entitled to, and πληρούται/πληρούνται = be fulfilled (of a condition)).


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