# 'indem' für Opposition?



## MasterPolish

Hi! I have found that most dictionaries list two main uses of *indem*:
1. to express means or method
_Er sparte Geld, *indem* er seinen Computer selbst machte._
2. to express simultaneity (some say it's slightly obsolete use)
*Indem*_ er sprach, hat sie das fertig gemacht._

Can it also be used for opposition? In sentences like:
_While he was having fun, I was working hard _– it's not really about things happening at the same time.
Would *indem* work in the sentence below – even if they did not literally happen at once?
_*Indem *er spielte, arbeitete ich stark._

Thanks in advance for clarification!


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## Sepia

"2. to express simultaneity (some say it's slightly obsolete use)
*Indem*_ er sprach, hat sie das fertig gemacht."_

_I really think that is more than slightly obsolete. I can't remember ever having seen it used only to express_ simultaneity.


To me, at least, "indem" says that one thing happens as the consequence of the other.


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## DerFrosch

Sepia said:


> _I really think that is more than slightly obsolete. I can't remember ever having seen it used only to express_ simultaneity.



Then maybe you haven't read that much older German literature, I've seen it used quite a lot in older books (mostly in works prior to 1850, I think). It's not hard at all to find examples:

"_Er zog seine Hand aus der ihrigen, *indem *er sie mit einem starren, unwilligen Blick ansah._" Aus _Die Leiden des jungen Werther _(1774).

"_„Hoho!" rief der Dorfrichter, *indem *er eine große Dose hervorzog, [...]_" Aus _Die Elixiere des Teufels _(1815).

But returning to the OP's question:


MasterPolish said:


> Can it also be used for opposition?


No, it can't. Normally _während _is used for that:

_*Während *er spielte, arbeitete ich stark._

And of course, _während _may also express simultaneity. Indeed, today you'd probably have used _während _instead of _indem _in the quotations above.


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## Löwenfrau

Sepia said:


> "2. to express simultaneity (some say it's slightly obsolete use)
> *Indem*_ er sprach, hat sie das fertig gemacht."_
> 
> _I really think that is more than slightly obsolete. I can't remember ever having seen it used only to express_ simultaneity.
> 
> 
> To me, at least, "indem" says that one thing happens as the consequence of the other.




Could it be used to express not simultaneity, but a pair of events happening one right after the other, without a cause and consequence relation?

Ex.: "_Indem ich gekommen war, hat sie mir gesprochen_..."  Meaning the same as: "Als ich gleich/gerade gekommen war, hat sie mir gesprochen..."
(Actually, is this use of "gleich" and "gerade" correct?)
Thanks!


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## DerFrosch

Löwenfrau said:


> Could it be used to express not simultaneity, but a pair of events happening one right after the other, without a cause and consequence relation?



No, I've never seen it used like that. To my knowledge "indem" is always synonymous with "während" when used temporally.

Also, "jemandem sprechen" isn't used. "Jemanden sprechen" is, but that hardly fits here. Maybe "... hat sie mir angesprochen." "Gerade" is good, but "gleich" doesn't work here.


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## Löwenfrau

DerFrosch said:


> Also, "jemandem sprechen" isn't used. "Jemanden sprechen" is, but that hardly fits here. Maybe "... hat sie mir angesprochen." "Gerade" is good, but "gleich" doesn't work here.



Oh, I said "... mir gesprochen..." implying ".. mir gesprochen, dass..."


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## DerFrosch

Löwenfrau said:


> Oh, I said "... mir gesprochen..." implying ".. mir gesprochen, dass..."



Sorry, but that still doesn't make any sense to me. What is it that you want to say?


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## Kajjo

MasterPolish said:


> 1. to express means or method: _Er sparte Geld, *indem* er seinen Computer selbst machte._
> 2. to express simultaneity (some say it's slightly obsolete use): *Indem*_ er sprach, hat sie das fertig gemacht._


Version 1 is the contemporary standard usage.

Version 2 is obsolete. No one would use it anymore. Many Germans even have difficulties understanding it. Only very old literature exhibits this meaning and it always poses difficulties to modern readers.



> Can it also be used for opposition?


No, it cannot. Use "während" instead.


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## bearded

In my opinion, there is a conjunction (_wobei) _expressing a mixture of simultaneity and (mild) opposition:
_Wir arbeiteten fleißig, wobei alle anderen faulenzten._
It is halfway between _indem _and _während._
The same meaning can be expressed with the adverb _'dabei':
Wir arbeiteten fleißig, und dabei faulenzten alle anderen._
I know this is not a direct reply to the question concerning 'indem', but it may be interesting for the OP nevertheless, I hope.


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## Kajjo

bearded man said:


> _Wir arbeiteten fleißig, wobei alle anderen faulenzten._


No, that is not idiomatic. Please use "während" instead, which also expresses the notion of opposition.


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> No, that is not idiomatic. Please use "während" instead, which also expresses the notion of opposition.


And is my _und dabei_ not idiomatic, either?


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## Kajjo

_Wir arbeiteten fleißig, und dabei faulenzten alle anderen._

No, the sentence does not sound idiomatic. Further, I believe it is not understood in the sense you intended. "Dabei" gives simultanity, but no opposition.
_
Wir arbeiteten fleißig, und alle anderen faulenzten dabei._

Quite OK, but not perfectly idiomatic. While we worked, the other were idle... no connotation of opposition.


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## bearded

OK, my examples were not so well chosen.
But there are examples of 'opposition' in _dabei, _it seems to me:
_Er ging ganz langsam, und dabei hätte er ganz schnell laufen können_
(here _dabei = während / wo doch)...während er ...hätte laufen können /...wo er doch..._
Am I mistaken?


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## DerFrosch

bearded man said:


> Am I mistaken?


No, you're not. _Dabei _*can *express both simultaneity and opposition - *but*, and this is the important part, not at the same time.

When used to express opposition, _dabei _always placed at the beginning of a clause (with the exception of _und _and some other conjunctions that may precede _dabei). _If you place it anywhere else, the notion of opposition will inevitably be lost for German speakers.


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## Kajjo

bearded man said:


> But there are examples of 'opposition' in _dabei, _it seems to me: _Er ging ganz langsam, und dabei hätte er ganz schnell laufen können _Am I mistaken?


You are right. "Dabei" can express opposition if introducing a sentence. However, it usually does not express simultanity then. You could use "obwohl" instead in those cases.

_Er ging ganz langsam, obwohl er hätte ganz schnell laufen können.
Er ging ganz langsam, dabei hätte er ganz schnell laufen können._


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## bearded

Thanks, Frosch and Kajjo: I understand it clearly.


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## MasterPolish

That pretty much answers my question, thanks!

The wobei/dabei issue is also interesting. However, Duden marks them as adverbs. I must say, though, that I don't understand why German linguists insist on treating words that have all features of a conjunction as adverbs – but Kajjo's example indicates that they clearly can be used as conjunctions (it introduces the same word order as sonst, for instance).



> No, the sentence does not sound idiomatic.


One question, Kajjo: what do you mean by "idiomatic"?


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## bearded

MasterPolish said:


> they clearly can be used as conjunctions


I would say: _wobei _is a conjunction, whereas (=_während) dabei _is really and adverb.


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## MasterPolish

bearded man said:


> I would say: _wobei _is a conjunction, whereas (=_während) dabei _is really and adverb.



So it's me and you vs the world in that respect, I'm afraid


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## Kajjo

@MasterPolish: There are a lot of conjunctional adverbs in German, i.e. adverbs that can be used as conjunctions. Your perspective is not wrong, it is just a matter of definitions. Adverbs like "trotzdem", "ebenso" or "deswegen" are conjunctional adverbs, too.

"Idiomatic" means what a native would say and feel as absolutely natural, wide-spread and typical German. There are sentences, that are formally correct, but natives usually wouldn't use them, so these sentences are non-idiomatic.


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## MasterPolish

Interesting! I have not once seen or heard such use of the word "idiomatic" in English in my entire career (that is any other than "referring to idioms or using idioms").

Thanks for the cue in both cases, I will proceed to investigate that.


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## DerFrosch

I'm still not entirely sure about the status of "wobei". According to Canoo.net:


> Konjunktionaladverbien sind Satzglieder. *Sie können allein vor dem finiten Verb stehen*. Die anderen Satzglieder stehen dann hinter dem finiten Verb:
> _Wir haben kein Auto, deshalb kommen wir mit dem Zug_.



But that's not true for "wobei". So is it really a conjunctional adverb?


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## MasterPolish

Why can't you say, then, that "wobei" is two different parts of speech depending its location in a sentence?


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## bearded

In my understanding (but I admit I'm influenced by Italian syntax rules) the difference between _dabei _and _wobei _is the same as between _deshalb _and _weshalb:

Er liegt den ganzen Tag im Bett. Dabei hat er kein Fieber.
Er hat Fieber.  Deshalb bleibt er den ganzen Tag im Bet_t.
( beides Adverbien )

_Er liegt den ganzen Tag im Bett, wobei er jedoch laut dem Arzt nicht krank ist.
Er hat Fieber, weshalb er den ganzen Tag im Bett liegen muss._
( beides Konjunktionen ).

Please note the difference in verb positions.

Kajjo says that _deswegen _(and presumably _deshalb_), _trotzdem _etc. - being  conjunctional adverbs - can be used as conjunctions.  Now I would like to read an example of _deswegen _as a conjunction, in modern German, as I would be unable to figure it (I repeat: _deswegen, _not _weswegen_).
I remember that there used to be a now obsolete use of such adverbs as conjunctions. For example, in books by Theodor Fontane we find sentences like
_Er liebte sie, trotzdem er ihre Haltung nicht verstand.  _Nowadays, this would sound tremendously outdated, I believe.


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## Kajjo

@BM: First I wonder what kind of consequences you imply by "note the verb positions". Subordinating conjunctions lead to subclause position (weil, wenn, trotzdem, als, damit, dass, ...), but coordinating conjunctions (aber, außer, denn, jedoch, sondern, oder, und, ...) lead to main clause positions.

_ Er liebte sie, trotzdem er ihre Haltung nicht verstand._
_ Trotzdem er die Schnauze voll hatte, hörte er sich ihr Gerede bis zum Schluss an._

I do not feel the sentences to be "tremendously outdated", but quite normal. 

_Mein Fahrrad ist kaputt, deswegen komme ich mit der Bahn._


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## bearded

1. Is 'trotzdem' normally used as a subordinating conjunction - say, instead of 'obwohl'?
2. _Mein Fahrrad ist kaputt. Deshalb/deswegen komme ich mit der Bahn: _I feel those are adverbs, rather than conjunctions.  It is not by changing a fullstop into a comma that you transform them into coordinating conjunctions. This is proved by the fact that you can as well say....,*und*_ deshalb komme ich mit der Bahn. _In my opinion: conjunction+adverb (=und aus diesem Grund), not double conjunction.

PS. Auch laut WRDictionary und Duden ist der Gebrauch von 'trotzdem' als Konjunktion heutzutage nur umgangssprachlich (''standardsprachlich: obwohl''). / Also according to WRD and Duden nowadays the use of 'trotzdem' as a conjunction is only colloquial (''standard language: obwohl'').


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## Kajjo

@BM

to 1: Hm, yes, it is used. I would prefer "obwohl", though. Using "trotzdem" might be colloquial, but definitely not obsolete.

to 2: Must be the reason why they are called conjunctional adverbs?


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> Must be the reason why they are called conjunctional adverbs


I'm afraid you have misunderstood my argument to 2: When I wrote 'conjunction+adverb' I meant that ''und deshalb'' consists of a conjunction (und) and an adverb (deshalb).  For me, 'deshalb' is just an adverb (=for this/that reason), and ''conjunctional adverb'' appears a rather odd/abwegige definition to me. I think that a word normally has one function at a time: in this case, either conjunction or adverb.


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## DerFrosch

I may be wrong, but I understand conjunctional adverbs/"Konjunktionaladverbien" as adverbs that are close to conjunctions in meaning and function. That is, they are in fact adverbs and *not* conjunctions. After all, they're not called adverbial conjunctions.

Do you disagree with this, Kajjo?

This is what Canoo has to say about it.


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## Kajjo

Yes, Canoo explains it very well. I agree with you and Canoo. They function like conjunctions, but they are adverbs.


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