# suffixes for possessive pronouns



## Gwunderi

I have just another question (I must profit beeing online):
I'm learning the suffixes for possessive pronouns, as "khaweri, khawercha …".

How often is this form used? Is it used mainly for particular nouns such as family members, a friend etc.? Or is it very common for any word instead of "shel"? Are both forms used alike?
E.g. "מה שמו כלבך?" sounds rather strange to me (but perhaps only to me?)


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## Drink

Gwunderi said:


> I have just another question (I must profit beeing online):
> I'm learning the suffixes for possessive pronouns, as "khaweri, khawercha …".
> 
> How often is this form used? Is it used mainly for particular nouns such as family members, a friend etc.? Or is it very common for any word instead of "shel"? Are both forms used alike?
> E.g. "מה שמו כלבך?" sounds rather strange to me (but perhaps only to me?)



In colloquial speech, these forms are relatively rare for normal nouns and mainly used for certain family members, such as for husbands and wives. However, they are used frequently in formal writing for other nouns. And these forms also occur in many very common prepositions that are derived from nouns, so they are certainly worth learning.

Also, it would be either "מה שם כלבך" or "מה שמו של כלבך" (both of which sound very formal). With שם, this form is common, but with כלב, not so much, so I would stick with "מה השם של הכלב שלך". Note that it is more common to as "איך קוראים לכלב שלך".


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## Gwunderi

Drink said:


> Also, it would be either "מה שם כלבך" or "מה שמו של כלבך" (both of which sound very formal). With שם, this form is common, but with כלב, not so much, so I would stick with "מה השם של הכלב שלך". Note that it is more common to as "איך קוראים לכלב שלך".



Oh yes, I see now that "מה שמו כלבך" is completely wrong. You can ask: "מה שמו?"(What's his name?), but you ask "What's the name of your dog?"(מה השם של הכלב שלך?)
Sorry to have hurt your ears 

I also know the form "לקרוא ל..", so I will use this.
Think it's similar to Italian, it's not wrong to ask "What's the name of your dog?" ("Che nome ha il tuo cane?"), but nobody would say so, you ask "Come si chiama il tuo cane?" ("how is he called?").

But if you ask only "What's his name?" than you use "מה שמו?" rather than "איך קוראים לו?" - is this correct?

For me now it's sufficient to know the above forms.

But I must also admit that I don't understand both of your "formal" forms, the first two.
There's an example in my book:
מה שם המשפחה שלך?
and not:
מה השם של המשפחה שלך?
I think it's because שם המדפחה is a "composite noun" like בית הספר or ארוחת הבוקר.

But what form is מה שם כלבך?
Is it also a "composite" שם הכלב and is it because of that that you say "Whit שם, this form is common, but with כלב, not so much" ? (in this case it would be clear … : )

Or מה שמו של כלבך: Doesn't this mean "What's *his* name *of* your dog?"
To me it would seem grammatically correct:
מה השם של כלבך?

I know languages have sometimes strange forms you have to "shut up and learn" - I'm not sure if a mistake occurred you in the sentences or if it's forms you have to "shut up and learn" (the third possibility would be that I misunderstood something)?

And: I know that these forms also occur in many very common prepositions that are derived from nouns, and that they are certainly worth learning, so I'm doing now (בשבילי, אצלי, איתי ) and a lot of others.

תודה רבה
Gwunderi


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## Drink

Gwunderi said:


> Oh yes, I see now that "מה שמו כלבך" is completely wrong. You can ask: "מה שמו?"(What's his name?), but you ask "What's the name of your dog?"(מה השם של הכלב שלך?)



Yes, you can say both "מה שמו" and "מה השם שלו". They both sound fine.



Gwunderi said:


> But if you ask only "What's his name?" than you use "מה שמו?" rather than "איך קוראים לו?" - is this correct?



Like I said above, "מה שמו" is fine if you want to ask "What is his name?", but keep in mind that it is still often sounds better to ask "What do they call him?" (i.e. "איך קוראים לו").



Gwunderi said:


> There's an example in my book:
> מה שם המשפחה שלך?
> and not:
> מה השם של המשפחה שלך?
> I think it's because שם המדפחה is a "composite noun" like בית הספר or ארוחת הבוקר.
> 
> But what form is מה שם כלבך?
> Is it also a "composite" שם הכלב and is it because of that that you say "Whit שם, this form is common, but with כלב, not so much" ? (in this case it would be clear … : )



This "composite noun" construction can also indicate possession. "שם הכלב" means "the name of the dog", "שם כלבך" means "the name of your dog".



Gwunderi said:


> Or מה שמו של כלבך: Doesn't this mean "What's *his* name *of* your dog?"
> To me it would seem grammatically correct:
> מה השם של כלבך?



I also found this form strange when I first encountered it. It's just something you have to get used to. If you want a more logical explanation, you can think about what "של" really means. It is actually just two prefixes put together:
ש (she-) = "that", "which"
ל (le-) = "to", or "belonging to"
So של means "which belongs to", and "שמו של כלבך" means "his name, which belongs to the dog".



Gwunderi said:


> I know languages have sometimes strange forms you have to "shut up and learn" - I'm not sure if a mistake occurred you in the sentences or if it's forms you have to "shut up and learn" (the third possibility would be that I misunderstood something)?



Yes, these are things you just have to "shut up and learn".



Gwunderi said:


> And: I know that these forms also occur in many very common prepositions that are derived from nouns, and that they are certainly worth learning, so I'm doing now (בשבילי, אצלי, איתי ) and a lot of others.



If you pay attention carefully, you will notice that there is a difference between "true" prepositions and prepositions that really come from nouns. איתי is a true preposition, which is why איתנו is pronounced "itanu", but בשביל is really the preposition ב combined with the noun שביל (literally meaning "in the path of"). Since for nouns the ending is "enu" (not "anu"), בשבילנו is pronounced "bishvilenu". So also שמנו is "shmenu".


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## Gwunderi

Drink said:


> Like I said above, "מה שמו" is fine if you want to ask "What is his name?", but keep in mind that it is still often sounds better to ask "What do they call him?" (i.e. "איך קוראים לו").



Already memorized … 



> This "composite noun" construction can also indicate possession. "שם הכלב" means "the name of the dog", "שם כלבך" means "the name of your dog".



Also בית הספר means "house of the book" and ארוחת בוקר" meal of the morning" - I'm not so sure for עיר העתיקה, for I think עתיקה is only used as an adjective? - it made me curious and I found e.g. דלת הבית, the first example I looked for, so it seems many others are used (mainly for two words often used together?)



> I also found this form strange when I first encountered it. It's just something you have to get used to. If you want a more logical explanation, you can think about what "של" really means. It is actually just two prefixes put together:
> ש (she-) = "that", "which"
> ל (le-) = "to", or "belonging to"
> So של means "which belongs to", and "שמו של כלבך" means "his name, which belongs to the dog".



Interesting, I didn't realize that shel was composed of she and le, makes sense.

"His name, which belongs to the dog": that's exacly what disturbed me in the Hebrew sentence too, for "his" already means "which belongs to him", so it's an unnecessary repetition (it's redundant). But:



> Yes, these are things you just have to "shut up and learn".



If you say so ...  



> If you pay attention carefully, you will notice that there is a difference between "true" prepositions and prepositions that really come from nouns. איתי is a true preposition, which is why איתנו is pronounced "itanu", but בשביל is really the preposition ב combined with the noun שביל (literally meaning "in the path of"). Since for nouns the ending is "enu" (not "anu"), בשבילנו is pronounced "bishvilenu". So also שמנו is "shmenu".



I see that it's sometimes -anu and sometimes -enu, but I thought it was rather accidentally. It's very helpful to know that there's a rule of course. Only I didn't know that שביל is a noun, I only thought that בשביל seems a bit too long for a preposition. But I realized what במקומנו is composed of, and indeed the ending is -enu, seems reliable : ) So הזה בשבילך literally means "that's on the path to you" - I like it very much, it's nearly poetic.

That was very helpful, תודה על העזורה
Gwunderi


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## Drink

Gwunderi said:


> I'm not so sure for עיר העתיקה, for I think עתיקה is only used as an adjective?



Yes, "עתיקה" is an adjective. It is actually "*ה*עיר העתיקה" because nouns and adjectives must agree in definiteness.


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## Gwunderi

Drink said:


> Yes, "עתיקה" is an adjective. It is actually "*ה*עיר העתיקה" because nouns and adjectives must agree in definiteness.



Thought I had read somewhere that it was a "composite" too, but can't find it now, so I was probably mistaken (also because עתיקה is an adjective).

תודה! Gwunderi


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## utopia

In Mishnaic Hebrew the poeple of the era used a construction of a NOUN-THE+ADJECTIVE, like Knesset HaGdola, Yam HaTikhon.

So Ir Ha'Atiqa would be ok if you use the language of that era, a form that is rare and considered archaic.


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## origumi

utopia said:


> In Mishnaic Hebrew the poeple of the era used a construction of a NOUN-THE+ADJECTIVE, like Knesset HaGdola, Yam HaTikhon.


Had started already in the Bible. Interesting examples here.


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## Drink

origumi said:


> Had started already in the Bible. Interesting examples here.



In fact I have read some theories that claim that the original purpose of the "ha" prefix in pre-Biblical times was as a relative pronoun linking adjectives to nouns, so "ish hagadol" would have meant "man that is big", and then later it spread to the nouns themselves.


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## Gwunderi

utopia said:


> In Mishnaic Hebrew the poeple of the era used a construction of a NOUN-THE+ADJECTIVE, like Knesset HaGdola, Yam HaTikhon.
> 
> So Ir Ha'Atiqa would be ok if you use the language of that era, a form that is rare and considered archaic.



Useful to know, so I'll not be confused if I'll encounter this form once.
And I find also the historical developments very interesting.

תודה!


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## Gwunderi

That's really funny, I just found the same "very strange" form in an other text today:

הוא עולה לחדרה של בעלת הבית.

"He goes upstairs to *her* room *of *(which belongs to) the landlady."

Exactly the same unnecessary repetition as in the example with the dog's name.

And also one "composit" more, בעלת הבית - it's exactly the two issues we discussed here, both in one short sentence.

It's an older text, the lira is still Israel's currency, and the teacher/speaker sometimes points out that today you would say something otherwise.

From the pdf of lesson 16 here: http://www.archivio-torah.it/lingua/elef/ (page 2 תרגיל)
(I don't learn from this site, use it only sometimes as a complementary source; also think the teacher could improve his accent - even I can judge it


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## Drink

This construction is very common even on the Hebrew Wikipedia. Here is a quote from the article on the 2015 film _The Martian_ (which I chose because of its recency and because films are a rather colloquial topic):
הסרט *בבימויו של רידלי סקוט* מבוסס על הספר "לבד על מאדים" מאת אנדי וייר שפורסם ב-2011.


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## Gwunderi

Drink said:


> This construction is very common even on the Hebrew Wikipedia. Here is a quote from the article on the 2015 film _The Martian_ (which I chose because of its recency and because films are a rather colloquial topic):
> הסרט *בבימויו של רידלי סקוט* מבוסס על הספר "לבד על מאדים" מאת אנדי וייר שפורסם ב-2011.



Google translated it for me, I knew only few words:
"The film directed by Ridley Scott based on the book …"
But I see where the form is used, in "בבימויו של".

So it's a form still commonly used today, also in colloquial speech - I wasn't sure because the above text is an older one and I never saw this form before … must really get used to it, sounds completely wrong in my ears 

Toda raba, Drink


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## Haskol

The use of a possessive suffix and shel is Aramaic influence, and I would say that it is not used colloquially nowadays. ספרו של or סרטו של is fine if you're writing a piece or if you are a news anchor or something, but if you're just talking to your friend you would say הסרט של.


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## Drink

Haskol said:


> The use of a possessive suffix and shel is Aramaic influence, and I would say that it is not used colloquially nowadays. ספרו של or סרטו של is fine if you're writing a piece or if you are a news anchor or something, but if you're just talking to your friend you would say הסרט של.



I'm not sure it's Aramaic influence, since in Aramaic the most usual form is also "definite article + ד", with "possessive suffix + ד" occurring only rarely. It's simply a patter that became common in Mishnaic Hebrew.

As far as its use in colloquial language today, I have been told that, even colloquially, the only way to refer to someone's husband or wife is "בעלה של" and "אשתו של" and that you can't say "הבעל של" or "האשה של".


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## Haskol

Hmmm...it doesn't exist in Biblical Aramaic, so I guess you're right. No reason to assume it is Aramaic influence. Seems to be a later development in both languages.

I think הבעל של and האשה של simply sounds disrespectful, because of the double meaning of both words. So saying אשתו של and בעלה של makes it somehow more clear and polite. But in any other case using the double possession is a bit too formal for regular conversation.


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## Gwunderi

Haskol said:


> I think הבעל של and האשה של simply sounds disrespectful, because of the double meaning of both words.



What is the double meaning of the words? I think בעל can also mean "master"? In my dictionary I find only "husband" resp. "wife".


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## Drink

Gwunderi said:


> What is the double meaning of the words? I think בעל can also mean "master"? In my dictionary I find only "husband" resp. "wife".



Yes, בעל by itself usually means "master" or "owner", and אשה by itself usually means "woman".


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## Gwunderi

Aha, o.k. - Toda, Drink!


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