# BCS: Danijelu trebalo je neko vrijeme da shvati



## sesperxes

Dear Foreros: 

 in the Croatian translation of "The Dophin" by S. Bambaren,  I've read this sentence: "Danijelu trebalo je neko vrijeme da shvati narav poklona kojeg je upravo primio".

I've no problems with the meaning, but I've a doubt (perhaps it's an oddity): would the following changes have the same meaning and correcteness?  

                             a) "Danijel trebao je neko vrijeme/vreme..."? (BCS)
                             b) "... vrijeme za shvatiti narav poklona...."  (only in Croatian) along with "...vreme da shvati..." (in Serbian and maybe Croatian too?)
                             c) "... vrijeme/vreme za shvatinje narava poklona..." (BCS)

Thanks for your help.


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## Duya

Um, who translated that sentence? Google? It contains at least two major errors:


The word order must be _Danijelu je trebalo_... in every flavor of BCS
The word _narav_ means 'character, nature' (of a human or an animal); for things and concepts, we rather say _priroda_.

On to the substance of the question. Usage of verb _trebati_ is very complex and varies across BCS area, but let us focus on this case, when the complement is a noun phrase (rather than a clause).

1) _Trebati_ can be impersonal, with the agent in dative, as in this case, or can be personal, as you proposed (_Danijel je trebao vrijeme..._). The latter use is rather Croatian. I would say that the latter connotes with actively pursuing something (_Danijel je trebao novac pa je počeo da radi_.), but Croatian foreros would have a better sense for that. Impersonal construct suits your usage better: compare equivalent English sentence "_*It* took some time *for Daniel* to realize_..."

2) Theoretically, prepositions should not go with infinitive: _za shvatiti_; that's a German intrusion. In practice, you will hear them in colloquial, particularly _za_: ask only for _burek za pon(ij)eti_, or you won't be understood . However, even if you use _za+infinitive_, that denotes a permanent quality, not a transient state. I'd say that the only natural way to say it is that: _...je trebalo vrijeme da shvati_. Da-constructs are not banned in Croatian (although such misconceptions exist), and they're about the only way to make a relative sentence: [Daniel needed] [time to understand]. 

3) The gerund is a "grammatically correct" alternative to za+infinitive. However, it has the same connotation: a permanent quality, not a transient state.


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## Arath

Is _Danijelu je trebalo vrijeme_ really impersonal? Isn't _vrijeme_ the subject of the sentence? How would you say _Daniel needed love_ or _Daniel needed his friends_? Wouldn't it be _Danijelu je trebala ljubav_ and _Danijelu su trebali njegovi prijatelji_?


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## sesperxes

> Um, who translated that sentence? Google? It contains at least two major errors:




Preveo: Zvonko Tomić
Lektura: Jasna Paunović
Naklada i tisak: Izvori, Zagreb 2005

It seems that Danijel Dupin, the main character of the tale, has its own point of view about word order: Danijelova tuga bila je očita / Danijel je znao da.../ i onda je Danijel čuo glas mora / Danijelu trebalo je neko vrijeme / Danijel se nije morao boriti../ Danijel nastavio je putovati / te je noći Danijel zaspao kako to čine sanjari / Danijel uhvatio je svoj prvi val / itd.


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## Duya

Arath said:


> Is _Danijelu je trebalo vrijeme_ really impersonal? Isn't _vrijeme_ the subject of the sentence? How would you say _Daniel needed love_ or _Daniel needed his friends_? Wouldn't it be _Danijelu je trebala ljubav_ and _Danijelu su trebali njegovi prijatelji_?



You are correct; _ljubav, prijatelji_ etc. are in nominative, and thus are nominal subjects of these sentences. My use of "impersonal" was a bit sloppy (although, I'd argue, they're impersonal on a logical level: compare the English equivalent).


sesperxes said:


> It seems that Danijel Dupin, the main character of the tale, has its own point of view about word order...



I see. Well, ho am I to argue against _licencia poetica_?


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## itreius

sesperxes said:


> Danijelova tuga bila je očita
> Danijel je znao da...
> i onda je Danijel čuo glas mora
> Danijelu trebalo je neko vrijeme
> Danijel se nije morao boriti..
> Danijel nastavio je putovati
> te je noći Danijel zaspao kako to čine sanjari
> Danijel uhvatio je svoj prvi val



I've marked the ungrammatical (at least to me) sentences because I wasn't sure if you were implying that _all_ of them are incorrect/weird/uncommon.


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## sesperxes

itreius said:


> I've marked the ungrammatical (at least to me) sentences because I wasn't sure if you were implying that _all_ of them are incorrect/weird/uncommon.





Many thanks!

 Sometimes I think that BCS really means "Bery" Complicated Scrabble...

You say "Danijel nastavio je putovati  ": without the subject, would it be OK?, For instance, "jučer nastavio je putovati" would be acceptable?


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## Duya

I agree with Itreius.


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## Duya

sesperxes said:


> You say "Danijel nastavio je putovati  ": without the subject, would it be OK?, For instance, "jučer nastavio je putovati" would be acceptable?



No. It violates the "clitics second" rule (Wackernagel's Law). It's more a prosodic than grammatical rule (or, both are taken into account). 

Rather than elaborating, I'd recommend this paper:
Serbo-Croatian Second Position Clitic Placement, Carson T. Schütze
It is a scientific paper, but it's not (too) dense to read, and it has a bunch of nice examples.


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## sesperxes

H v a l a !!


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