# Vowels



## MmeFarrand

Hello everyone.
I started teaching myself Russian recently, and I'm having some trouble figuring out how many vowels there are in the alphabet and which ones they are. I have looked at several websites and they all seem to have different numbers. For example, one place listed these ten letters as vowels: A, E, Ё, И, О, У, Ы, Э, Ю, Я; yet, some websites say there are eleven vowels, and others say there are six vowels, etc. Could a native Russian speaker or advanced Russian speaker please tell me which letters are considered vowels?

Спасибо!

-СМФ (SMF)


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## Awwal12

10 vowel letters: "а", "я", "у", "ю", "э", "е", "ы", "и", "о", "ё".
6 vowel phonemes: /а/, /у/, /э/, /ы/, /и/, /о/ (some schools call only 5 phonemes, excluding /ы/).
at least 14 vowel sounds: [a], [æ],[ɐ], [ə], , [ʉ], [ʊ], [e], [ɛ], [ɨ], _, [ɪ], [o], [ɵ].

P.S.:
"а" - /а/
"я" - /йа/, /а/
"у" - /у/
"ю" - /йу/, /у/
"э" - /э/
"е" - /йэ/, /э/
"ы" - /ы/ (/и/)
"и" - /и/
"о" - /о/, /а/
"ё" - /йо/, /о/
(/й/ is a consonant)

About Russian phonology see here (or, in Russian, here, with minor differences)._


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## TheGist

The problem is that in Russian there are roughly twice as many vowel letters as needed and twice as few consonant letters as needed.

The letters "я", "ю", "е", "ё" are the same as "а", "у", "э", "о" respectively. 
The only reason they are "я", "ю", "е", "ё" is because they serve 2 purposes.

1)First, they show that "а", "у", "э", "о" should be pronounced with [й] sound. So called "jotted variant".
So "*я*блоко" (apple) is simply [*й*-*а*-б-л-о-к-о]. This "jottism" happens to "я", "ю", "е", "ё" at the beginning of a word like in "*я*блоко" or after soft "ь" and hard "ъ" signs. "с*ъ*ел" (=have eaten) is simply [с-й-э-л].

2) Second, they show that the preceding consonant is "soft".
In the word "п*я*ть" (stands for number 5) "п" is soft because it is followed by "*я*". But this "я" is basically identical to "a". 
("Я" might be articulated a little bit differently from "a" in the word "пять" but it's only because "п" is soft, not because "я" should be pronounced differently from  "a".)

So, for example, we have *two* consonant sounds [п] and [п'] (=п soft), BUT we only have *one* consonant letter for both sounds, which is the letter "п".

And we have only *one* vowel sound [a], BUT we have *two* vowel letters for this sound "a" and "я". And I have already explained the two reasons for this.

Russian is not that hard as it seems!


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## Awwal12

> "Я" might be articulated a little bit differently from "a" in the word "пять"...


Well, not "a little bit" - it is [æ] instead of [a], even the native speakers usually note the difference.  On the other hand, you're right - it is because of softness of the consonant. And furthermore, both these sounds are allophones of /а/; therefore, if somebody would say [pʲatʲ] instead of [pʲætʲ], he at least would be understood.

P.S.:


> And we have only one vowel sound [a]


It is rather incorrect. For instance, in unstressed positions /а/ phoneme NEVER becomes [a], it is either [ɐ] or [ə] (or even _!). We must always distinguish phonemes from sounds - especially giving advices to learners. )

Really, Russian isn't so difficult as it seems, but... the learner surely always needs audio samples (well, or a real teacher)._


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## TheGist

*To Awwal12*

Yes, I agree with you that there are plenty of sound variations in Russian, as in many other languages. That's because sounds are never isolated, they are always pronounced in combination with other sounds and there are lots of things that influence how they sound (stressed/unstressed position, уподобление, расподобление and so on and so forth). But the fact is, [æ], [ɐ] or [ə] are *not* phonematic, so these are just sound variations of the [a] sound. So the only sound that would affect the meaning of a word is [a] (in contrast with [о], [у] etc), and not [æ], [ɐ] or [ə] which are even *non*-existent to the uncareful Russian ear.


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## Awwal12

> But the fact is, [æ], [ɐ] or [ə] are not phonematic, so these are just sound variations of the [a] sound.


Sounds cannot be "variations of a sound", they're variations (allophones) of some phoneme. Phoneme isn't a sound, it is an abstract concept in every language - even if it may have some basic sound interpretation (for example, /а/ -> [a]). Can [ɪ] sound be explained as a "variation" of [a] sound? I doubt, but it definitely may be an allophone of Russian /а/ phoneme:
пяток /п'ат*о*к/ -> [pʲɪt'ok]
However, *the same* sound also may be an unstressed allophone of /и/ and /э/ phonemes:
Петров /п'этр*о*в/ -> [pʲɪtɾ'of]
пилигрим /п'ил'игр'*и*м/ -> [pʲilʲɪgɾʲ'im]

The difference between sounds and phonemes is too important to just throw it out (especially in Russian, with its terrible reduction of unstressed vowels). And, I believe, a learner should understand the basics of phonology to avoid strong inaccuracies in pronunciation (since one pronounces sounds, not phonemes after all).


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## TheGist

> Sounds cannot be "variations of a sound", they're variations (allophones) of some phoneme.


Yes, that's right . I forgot all these technical words. It's been a long time ago since I learned Russian phonetics at the university. 

But it doesn't change anything. The truth is, you only have to be able to produce these vowel sounds [а], [у], [э], [о],[и], [ы] in order to be understood in Russian. Unlike in English, where you have to learn how to pronounce both  [æ] and [ʌ] and [ɑ], otherwise the meaning of some words cannot be understood.

And a Russian native speaker, who doesn't have a higher linguistic education, doesn't even know that [æ] or [ə] exist in Russian. You don't learn it at school. So if you ask a Russian school student, (*not* a linguistic university student), how many vowels there are in Russian, he would only come up with these *six* [а], [у], [э], [о],[и], [ы].

For someone who learns Russian as a foreign language, there is no sense to go as deep as this:


> at least 14 vowel sounds: [a], [æ],[ɐ], [ə], , [ʉ], [ʊ], [e], [ɛ], [ɨ], _, [ɪ], [o], [ɵ]._


_
This is what is essential for the Russian language



			10 vowel letters: "а", "я", "у", "ю", "э", "е", "ы", "и", "о", "ё".
6 vowel phonemes: /а/, /у/, /э/, /ы/, /и/, /о/
		
Click to expand...


By the way, most people don't even know the difference between sounds, phonemes, allophones etc. But it doesn't prevent them from knowing a language well.

Linguistic accuracy is good. But I just wanted to make things simple. _


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## Awwal12

> The truth is, you only have to be able to produce these vowel sounds [а], [у], [э], [о],[и], [ы] in order to be understood in Russian.


I believe that a person studying some language should pronounce words correctly, and it is not enough just to be understood here.


> And a Russian native speaker, who doesn't have a higher linguistic education, doesn't even know that [æ] or [ə] exist in Russian.


Yes, but he still pronounces all the sounds - just mechanically. But if one isn't a native speaker, he should learn how to pronounce them - otherwise he will have a dreadful accent, won't he?


> By the way, most people don't even know the difference between sounds, phonemes, allophones etc. But it doesn't prevent them from knowing a language well.


Yes, but if they have no noticeable accent, they are either native speakers or have a great experience with that language. And one of the purposes of study is to gain a natural pronunciation so early as possible, I suppose.


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## TheGist

Awwal12 said:


> I believe that a person studying some language should pronounce words correctly, and it is not enough just to be understood here.
> 
> Yes, but he still pronounces all the sounds - just mechanically. But if one isn't a native speaker, he should learn how to pronounce them - otherwise he will have a dreadful accent, won't he?
> 
> Yes, but if they have no noticeable accent, they are either native speakers or have a great experience with that language. And one of the purposes of study is to gain a natural pronunciation so early as possible, I suppose.



Sorry, but I can't agree with the statements you made.

Knowing how to pronounce [æ],[ɐ], [ə] etc will not help foreign students a slightest bit in developing a good Russian accent. For one obvious reason: who is going to transcribe words for them that thoroughly as to show all [æ],[ɐ], [ə]?

Russian language doesn't use transcription that much as, for example, English. You will hardly find anywhere any transcription at all for Russian words, let alone this ultra detailed transcription that you propose.

You will not start pronouncing all words ideally correctly until you are pretty fluent with a particular language. 

Are you going to teach how to pronounce [æ] in the word "пять" which is *not* even the real [æ], it is just similar to it because it's hard to pronounce "soft п" and "hard" [a] together. It would be more useful to explain how to pronounce "soft" п or л or c..., because these are the most difficult sounds for those whose native language doesn't have soft consonants.


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## Awwal12

> Russian language doesn't use transcription that much as, for example, English. You will hardly find anywhere any transcription at all for Russian words, let alone this ultra detailed transcription that you propose.


Yes, but the main reason is that the Russian phonology is extremely regular. The orthography definitely sets the phonematic structure, and the last definetly sets the pronunciation (when the stress position is known). So more reason to learn how all that works. For instance, unstressed /а/ after soft consonants (orthographically - "я") always turns into _ or [ɪ] (this difference is really inessential in Russian), stressed /а/ after soft consonants (orthographically - "я") always turns into [æ], etc. There is no need in transcriptions to get the real pronunciation of a scribed word; it is enough to know the basics of Russian orthography and phonology. And audiosamples or a teacher (they're nevertheless necessary) will finish the trick.  Every new word will consist of already familiar sounds, and students themselves will know how to read it.



			You will not start pronouncing all words ideally correctly until you are pretty fluent with a particular language.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - but you still can try to pronounce words so correct as possible. In the beginning it is comparatively easy; later it would be much more difficult to get rid of old and habitual mistakes.



			Are you going to teach how to pronounce [æ] in the word "пять" which is not even the real [æ]
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but actually there is no "real [æ]". What is a standard? There is just some range of sounds referred to [æ], and Russian stressed allophone of /а/ after soft consonants lies there. Obviously, different speakers pronounce it differently, and some average Russian [æ] and average English [æ] aren't equal too, but it doesn't matter after all. Just learn to pronounce something close to the "average Russian [æ]". 



			It would be more useful to explain how to pronounce "soft" п or л or c...
		
Click to expand...

Obviously, it is also necessary, but it is just one part of good pronunciation - even if the most difficult for English speakers. The purpose of study is not the ability to pronounce hard and soft consonants - it is the ability to speak correctly, in all aspects of that._


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## Nanon

A "convenient" approach for a beginner may be ordering the 10 written vowels into vowel pairs:

hard: Ы Э А О У
soft: И Е Я Ё Ю

This matches the 5-phoneme approach (considering ы as an allophone of /и/), so these are pairs corresponding to /i/, /e/, /a/, /o/, /u/.

MmeFarrand will notice very soon that many things in Russian grammar work in pairs (verbs, for example) so it is better to get used to the idea . Vowels also work in pairs and we use the soft or the hard one according to neighbouring consonants. And as said before, in fact the _consonants _are hard or soft, which is reflected by _vowels _in spelling - misleading, eh?  
And what if there is no consonant before the vowel? See TheGist's post # 3 § 1.

Well, that's for spelling. Now pronouncing may look slightly more complicated because vowels are not only dependent on surrounding consonants but also on stress: stressed, before stress and after stress (with some variants). And that's where you get to pronounce those 14 vowel sounds (in total, because these sounds belong to the stresses and unstressed vowel system). 
The good news is that a) the rules are quite regular and b) the stress is written in dictionaries (like this), so, as Awwal12 said, native speakers and advanced learners do not need transcription.

Well, this is just a summarised, simplifying approach for MmeFarrand to get started without getting discouraged (maybe fine-tuning Russian [æ] vs English [æ] would lead us too far here). Of course, the more samples she can get from audio materials, native teachers... and the more she will practise, the clearer it will be.


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## TheGist

TheGist said:
			
		

> And a Russian native speaker, who doesn't have a higher linguistic education, doesn't even know that [æ] or [ə] exist in Russian.





Awwal12 said:


> Yes, but he still pronounces all the sounds - just mechanically. But if one isn't a native speaker, he should learn how to pronounce them - otherwise he will have a dreadful accent, won't he?


I've been thinking about this recurrently.  And the more I think about this, the more certain I get that in Russian there is no such thing as [æ] per se.

I want to stress again that Russian [æ] only exists because it's almost impossible to pronounce a soft consonant and hard [а] together. The proof is simple: Ask a Russian speaker (who doesn't know English or other languages where there's [æ]) to pronounce [æ]. No way, they won't be able to, they don't even have a clue how to do this. Yes, they can pronounce the word "пять" - no problem, but [æ] alone - never! Ask an English speaker to pronounce [æ] as if in the word 'rat', they will do this without a problem. One more thing. Tell Russian speakers to pronounce я in the word "пя-я-ять" longer, they will end up pronouncing [pʲæ-a-atʲ]. "Ура! Я получил пя-я-ять!" (NOT [pʲæ-æ-ætʲ]  ). Tell English speakers to pronounce "a" in the word "rat" longer, they will still be saying [ræ-æ-æt]. "Oh my god! A ra-a-at!"

So Russian [æ] is not an 'intentional' [æ], it is an 'inevitable' [æ] after soft consonants. This happens not only in Russian, of course, but also in many other languages.

For example, English [t] is alveolar. That's the normal way to pronounce it and an average English speaker can't pronounce it in a different way. Hence the typical English accent that Russian people hear when English speakers pronounce Russian words with "т" and "д". However, before (inter)dental [θ], English [t] also becomes dental as in the word eighth [eɪtθ]. The reason is simple (as simple as in the case of Russian [æ]): it is impossible to pronounce alveolar [t] and dental [θ] together. Again, this is not an "intentional" [t], it is "inevitable"  [t].



Awwal12 said:


> ...But if one isn't a native speaker, he should learn how to pronounce them...


Should he/she? No Russian native speaker can pronounce [æ], why does a learner have to be able to?


Awwal12 said:


> ...otherwise he will have a dreadful accent, won't he?


No, he/she won't. If they have learned how to pronounce soft consonants correctly, their "я" in the word "пять" (or any other similar word) will sound like [æ] inevitably, whether they want it or not.


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## Awwal12

> I want to stress again that Russian [æ] only exists because it's almost impossible to pronounce a soft consonant and hard [а] together. The proof is simple: Ask a Russian speaker (who doesn't know English or other languages where there's [æ]) to pronounce [æ]. No way, they won't be able to


I am able. Am I genius?  I pronounce exactly Russian [æ], without any relation to English or some other phonetics, and could pronounce it even in school - because I heard it and always recognized it as something different than just [a]. Actually, I even didn't correlated it with English [æ] that time. I could distinguish and separately pronounce any sound from the pairs [a]-[æ], -[ʉ], [o]-[ɵ], [ɛ]-[e] when I even didn't know the word "allophone". I just wasn't satisfied with a phonematic transcription we learned at school. 


> So Russian [æ] is not an 'intentional' [æ], it is an 'inevitable' [æ] after soft consonants.


Actually, it is "inevitable" for Russians only. But for a learner, the number of possible incorrect variants is innumerable. We shouldn't just wait such "inevitable" sounds from a person whose organs of speech are used to pronounce sounds of foreign language since his birth. After all, I personally could pronounce [a] after a soft consonant too (that made me just to move a tongue more quickly changing the articulation).
P.S.: By the way, compare, please, Russian [jæ] and German [ja].  Russian pronounce [æ] not only afer palatalized sounds, but after all "soft" phonemes, don't they?


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## cyanista

Awwal12 said:


> I am able. Am I genius?  I pronounce exactly Russian [æ], without any relation to English or some other phonetics, and could pronounce it even in school - because I heard it and always recognized it as something different than just [a]. Actually, I even didn't correlated it with English [æ] that time. I could distinguish and separately pronounce any sound from the pairs [a]-[æ], -[ʉ], [o]-[ɵ], [ɛ]-[e] when I even didn't know the word "allophone". I just wasn't satisfied with a phonematic transcription we learned at school.



Don't know if you are a genius, Awwal12, but you certainly are an exception in this respect.  I had English phonetics at uni and can manage a convincing [æ] but I'll be danged if I know what [ʉ] is.  I wonder, too, why our teachers never mentioned that Russian has this [æ] that was such a problem to us all. It might have been easier this way but there was no one to tell us.


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## TheGist

You are either prejudiced about this topic because you know phonetics too well or you _are_ a genius. 

Just out of curiosity, would you yell "Ура! Я получил пя-я-ять!"  [pʲæ-æ-ætʲ] ? You just have to, because you know very well that this word should be pronounced with [æ] sound, right? No offense intended here. 

I'm sure most people envy you. They have to learn how to pronounce [æ] from scratch when they learn English.

I even have a further theory why we hear [æ] sound after soft consonants. When we pronounce them our speech organs take a position as if we were about to say [й]. Our tongue is more tense and rises to the roof of the mouth (with some consonants up to the point when it touches it). When we open our mouth and lower our tongue to say [a], we do something very similar as if we were saying [й-а]. This transition between soft [й] (or any other soft consonant, for that matter) and hard [a] results in a very *short* and *unstable* [æ]. Schematically, it can be depicted like this: [j ->æ -> а]. Same with 5: [pʲ ->æ -> а]. No matter how hard you try to pronounce hard  [a] after soft [pʲ] (if you pronounce [pʲ] properly), you can't completely get rid of this short [j] (almost inexistent) sound that softens the following [a]. I tried to pronounce this word as "hard" as I could, and although it started to sound a little bit harder, it still sounded pretty acceptable according to Russian phonetic norms. 

I will repeat myself, Russian [æ] is very short and unstable. You can't make it sound longer. That's why most people don't even notice its existence.

As for these sounds -[ʉ], [o]-[ɵ], [ɛ]-[e], most Russian people won't be able to pronounce the second part of each pair separately (read Cyanista). I know some Russians who learn French or German and they do have problems with this pair [ɛ]-[e]. For example German: Bett [bɛt] - Beet [bet].


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## Awwal12

> Just out of curiosity, would you yell "Ура! Я получил пя-я-ять!" [pʲæ-æ-ætʲ] ?


Yes. This sound can be drawled in Russian (and that really happens - not always, though). Do you need an audiosample?  Anyway, I wouldn't call this allophone "short" and "unstable". Actually, exactly this allophone is much more stable than [ʉ] and [ɵ], for instance.


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## MmeFarrand

Ok, I'm confused!
This is what I have so far, but I've bolded the things that I'm unsure of (whether of its meaning or correctness):

10 Vowel Letters: а, я, у, ю, э, е, ы, и, о, ё
6 Vowel *Phonemes*: /а/, /у/, /э/, /ы/, /и/, /о/ (some schools exclude /ы/)
14 Vowel Sounds: [a], [æ],[ɐ], [ə], , [ʉ], [ʊ], [e], [ɛ], [ɨ], _, [ɪ], [o], [ɵ]

Note:
а =/а/
я =/йа/, /а/
у =/у/
ю =/йу, /у/
э =/э/
е =/йэ/, /э/
ы=/ы/, (/и/)
и=/и/
о=/о/, /а/
ё=/йо/, /о/

In Russian there are roughly twice as many vowel letters as needed and twice as few consonant letters as needed.

The letters "я", "ю", "е", "ё" are the same as "а", "у", "э", "о" respectively. 
The only reason they are "я", "ю", "е", "ё" is because they serve 2 purposes.

1)First, they show that "а", "у", "э", "о" should be pronounced with [й] sound. So called "jotted variant".
So "яблоко" (apple) is simply [й-а-б-л-о-к-о]. This "jottism" happens to "я", "ю", "е", "ё" at the beginning of a word like in "яблоко" or after soft "ь" and hard "ъ" signs. "съел" (=have eaten) is simply [с-й-э-л].

2) Second, they show that the preceding consonant is "soft".
In the word "пять" (stands for number 5) "п" is soft because it is followed by "я". But this "я" is basically identical to "a". 
*("Я" might be articulated a little bit differently from "a" in the word "пять" but it's only because "п" is soft, not because "я" should be pronounced differently from "a".)
*
So, for example, there’s  two consonant sounds [п] and [п'] (=п soft), BUT only one consonant letter for both sounds, which is the letter "п".

*And there’s only one vowel sound [a], *BUT two vowel letters for this sound "a" and "я". The above are the reasons for this.

I would appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me. And thank you to everyone for your thoughtful insight and help! I really appreciate it, I only know French and English so this is quite new for me._


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## Awwal12

> So "яблоко" (apple) is simply [й-а-б-л-о-к-о]


To be precise, it is /й*а*блака/ [j'æbləkə]; /о/ phoneme itself doesn't exist in unstressed positions, let the sound [o] alone. But, of course, if it's convenient for you, you may write it down that way.


> This "jottism" happens to "я", "ю", "е", "ё" at the beginning of a word like in "яблоко" or after soft "ь" and hard "ъ" signs. "съел" (=have eaten) is simply [с-й-э-л]


...And after vowel letters as well: переехать /п'эр'эй*э*хат'/, сеялка /с'*э*йалка/, etc.


> 2) Second, they show that the preceding consonant is "soft".


Yes, but except 3 consonant letters that are always hard: "ш", "ж" and "ц". Use of different vowel letters ("ё" or "о", "у" or "ю" etc.) after them depends mostly on tradition and has no phonematical meaning at all (since these consonants are always hard anyway).
By the way, these three have three "always soft" brothers ("ч", "щ", "й") which are in approximately the same situation - no vowel letter after them can make them hard.


> But this "я" is basically identical to "a".


Well, at least it represents the same vowel phoneme as "а" in these situations. 


> And there’s only one vowel sound [a], BUT two vowel letters for this sound "a" and "я".


It is one phoneme: /а/. But the actual sound produced by that phoneme depends on phonetic surrounding and, IN THE FIRST PLACE, on position of stress in the word (!). The sound produced by stressed and unstressed /а/ phoneme differs strongly, and the same applies to almost any other phoneme. For instence, unstressed /э/ phoneme after soft consonants produces... [ɪ] sound. Well, it is the notorious Russian reduction of (unstressed) vowels, which should be mastered anyway.


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