# although + V-ing



## Imladris

*Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.* 
(Oxford Advanced Dictionary)

Can we use *Although* instead of *Despite* in the above sentence?


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## vicky1027

You would have to say "Although he applied for hundereds of jobs, he is still out of work."


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## audiolaik

Imladris said:


> *Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*
> (Oxford Advanced Dictionary)
> 
> Can we use *Although* instead of *Despite* in the above sentence?



Hello,

I do not think that _although_ can be followed by _ing_ since it means _despite the fact that_. 

Despite the fact that he applied for.... = Although he applied for....


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## Imladris

What about the question below which is about this point? It is from the official gmat review and the answer is also from that official review . 

With only 5 percent of the world's population, United States citizens consume 28 percent of its nonrenewable resources, drive more than one-third of its automobiles, and use 21 times more water per capita than Europeans do.
(A) With
(B) As
(C) Being
(D) Despite having
*(E) Although accounting for*

Answer

The word or phrase that begins this sentence should establish the contrast between the size of the United States population and the activities of its citizens. Choices D and E are the only ones that establish the contrast, and only E, the best choice, expresses meaning accurately with the phrase Although accounting for. With in choice A and Despite having in choice D confusingly suggest that United States citizens somehow possess, rather than constitute, 5 percent of the world's population. Choices B and C lose the contrast between the opening phrase and the main clause, and As is unidiomatic in B.


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## Elwintee

Imladris said:


> What about the question below which is about this point? It is from the official gmat review and the answer is also from that official review .
> 
> With only 5 percent of the world's population, United States citizens consume 28 percent of its nonrenewable resources, drive more than one-third of its automobiles, and use 21 times more water per capita than Europeans do.
> (A) With
> (B) As
> (C) Being
> (D) Despite having
> *(E) Although accounting for*
> 
> Answer
> 
> The word or phrase that begins this sentence should establish the contrast between the size of the United States population and the activities of its citizens. Choices D and E are the only ones that establish the contrast, and only E, the best choice, expresses meaning accurately with the phrase Although accounting for. With in choice A and Despite having in choice D confusingly suggest that United States citizens somehow possess, rather than constitute, 5 percent of the world's population. Choices B and C lose the contrast between the opening phrase and the main clause, and As is unidiomatic in B.



I agree that "Although it accounts for..." would be better.


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## vicky1027

Both D and E are correct. D has a more negative connotation (it starts the sentence that way). E is more formal (politically correct?). It doesn't start out as an attack, it sounds more like you are just stating the facts.


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## Transatlantic

In the ungrammatical sentence that starts with _*Although applying_, the -ing form is a gerund, i.e. a deverbative noun. It can follow _despite_ because _despite_ is a preposition, and prepositions are typically followed by noun phrases. 

In the sentence that starts with _Although accounting, accounting _is not a gerund, but a present participle, which makes _although accounting for only 5 percent of the world's population _a participial clause, i.e. a non-finite verb clause with a similar syntactic value as its finite counterpart _although *it accounts  they account *for only 5 percent of the world's population. _

In other words, despite the similarity in surface appearance, _*Although applying _and _Although accounting_ are syntactically two very different kinds of sentence constituents.

(An asterisk means that a construction is not grammatical).


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## Imladris

I am not convinced (though you not have that kind of an obligation) that "although accounting for" is correct but "although applying" is wrong as one is gerund and the other is participle. What is the yardstick of differentiating gerund from participle, if I may ask?


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## Thomas Tompion

vicky1027 said:


> Both D and E are correct. D has a more negative connotation (it starts the sentence that way). E is more formal (politically correct?). It doesn't start out as an attack, it sounds more like you are just stating the facts.


Hi Vicky, I don't think you can mean that D is correct. It implies that United States citizens have 5% of the world's population.

I suspect that Transatlantic has forgotten what the subject of the sentence is too when he says that although accounting for equates to although *it* accounts for; shouldn't it be 'although they account for 5%...., United States citizens....'

The problem to me seems also to be one of time, and hence of tense. If we look at the sentence in the OP:

*1.* *Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.* 

we can't change Depite to Although because

*2. Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.* 

equates to 

*3. Although he applies for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*

which is not what sentence 1. is saying. The job applications are in the past; what we are saying is:

*4. Despite having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*


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## LV4-26

Imladris said:


> What is the yardstick of differentiating gerund from participle, if I may ask?


Here is what I would suggest: try to replace the word with any noun phrase and see if it can work grammatically. If it does, it's a gerund. If not, it's a participle. 
Despite their relatively small number...
Although their relatively small number.... 

I agree with Transatlantic and TT on their respective points.


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## xecid

Yes!! you can use ALTHOUGH instead of DESPITE.

Applying in this case is not used as a verb but as a noun...

For example: Although swimming is my favorite sport, I might try skiing this time.


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## Imladris

Thomas Tompion said:


> Hi Vicky, I don't think you can mean that D is correct. It implies that United States citizens have 5% of the world's population.
> 
> I suspect that Transatlantic has forgotten what the subject of the sentence is too when he says that although accounting for equates to although *it* accounts for; shouldn't it be 'although they account for 5%...., United States citizens....'
> 
> The problem to me seems also to be one of time, and hence of tense. If we look at the sentence in the OP:
> 
> *1.* *Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*
> 
> we can't change Depite to Although because
> 
> *2. Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*
> 
> equates to
> 
> *3. Although he applies for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*
> 
> which is not what sentence 1. is saying. The job applications are in the past; what we are saying is:
> 
> *4. Despite having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.*



Then Oxford made a big mistake using this as an example sentence of "despite". 

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache...or+hundreds+of+jobs"&hl=tr&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=tr

And do you mean if we say

*Although having applied ... *

the sentence would be correct?


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## LV4-26

xecid said:


> Yes!! you can use ALTHOUGH instead of DESPITE.
> 
> Applying in this case is not used as a verb but as a noun...
> 
> For example: Although swimming is my favorite sport, I might try skiing this time.


I beg to disagree.
In your sentence you've got 
- a subject ==> swimming
- a predicate ===> is my favorite sport

Now, in the sample sentence
_although accounting for 5% of the word population_...
if you consider accounting as a noun, what it its function? Is it a subject? If so, where is the verb? 
I'm afraid you won't find any verb, because _accounting_ *is *the verb.


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## Thomas Tompion

Imladris said:


> Then Oxford made a big mistake using this as an example sentence of "despite".
> 
> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache...or+hundreds+of+jobs"&hl=tr&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=tr
> 
> And do you mean if we say
> 
> *Although having applied ... *
> 
> the sentence would be correct?


It's a very good question, Imladris.  I think we would use despite in that case.  I was worried about that as I wrote, and I'm pleased you've confronted that issue.  I'll need to consider why it doesn't work well here but seems to in other cases.


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## Transatlantic

Imladris said:


> What is the yardstick of differentiating gerund from participle, if I may ask?


 
An -ing form used as a noun-like constituent is a gerund. 

An -ing form used as a verb-like, adjective-like, or adverb-like sentence constituent is a participle. 

I think Thomas Tompion's point about temporal reference is valid. A present participle can only have a non-past temporal reference, and the "applying" in the original example _seems_ to refer to the past. 

A gerund is neutral in terms of temporal reference, as it is essentially a noun.

I think this might be why I parsed the -ing form in the original example as a gerund and, therefore, decided that a preposition (i.e. _despite_) sounded better to me. This is just a theory


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## Transatlantic

Imladris said:


> *Although having applied ... *
> 
> the sentence would be correct?


 
I don't think it would  

I still prefer a gerund reading and "despite", as the finite clause is about a subject referred to by "he" and not about "having applied". Let me try to clarify. 

*Despite having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.* 

"He" does not mean "having applied". It means "John, Dick, or Harry", "a guy we are talking about".

In a sentence like this:

*Although having applied/applying for hundreds of jobs was a prudent thing to do, it was unnecessary.* 

"It" refers to "having applied" or "applying".

All the -ing forms above are gerunds. So, it appears that you use "despite" when the subject of the main clause is not the same as the entity referred to by a gerund and you use "although" when it is. 

Also, when you use "despite", the subject of the finite clause is the same as the doer of the action depicted by the gerund. When you use "although", it isn't.

***

In the sentence:

*Although accounting for only 5 percent of the world's population, United States citizens consume 28 percent of its nonrenewable resources*


"Accounting" is a participle, and its (logical, hidden, underlying) subject is "US citizens" BUT "US citizens" *is not the same as* "accounting". 

So, if "accounting" were a gerund (and you insisted on using "although"), the subject of the finite clause (after the comma) would have to be the same as that gerund. 

Here's an example. 

*Although accounting is a boring subject to study, it can help you find a good job. *


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## Loob

"Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund.

_Despite the war, they stayed together. Despite that, they were still in love. Despite knowing each other's faults, they remained in love._ _Despite applying/having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._

"Athough" is a conjunction; it's followed by a verb. If the verb is 'to be', it can be elided. In practice we do this elision in two stages. We start with the present/past simple:_ Although_ _they remained in love. _We convert this to the continuous _Although they were remaining in love. _We drop the verb 'to be' _Although remaining in love._

You can't do a similar two-stage process with 'although applying' in your original context, Imladris. The tense in the "although" clause has to fit the tense in the main clause. That's why 'although applying' doesn't work.


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## Transatlantic

Actually, I think we might need to state the rule as follows:

Despite (preposition) + noun phrase or non-finite clause

Although (conjunction) + finite or non-finite clause

***
NOTE:

Gerund clauses are sometimes also referred to as gerund phrases. 

non-finite forms (in English) = gerund, participle, infinitive


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> "Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund.
> 
> _Despite the war, they stayed together. Despite that, they were still in love. Despite knowing each other's faults, they remained in love._ _Despite applying/having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._
> 
> "Athough" is a conjunction; it's followed by a verb. If the verb is 'to be', it can be elided. In practice we do this elision in two stages. We start with the present/past simple:_ Although_ _they remained in love. _We convert this to the continuous _Although they were remaining in love. _We drop the verb 'to be' _Although remaining in love._
> 
> You can't do a similar two-stage process with 'although applying' in your original context, Imladris. The tense in the "although" clause has to fit the tense in the main clause. That's why 'although applying' doesn't work.


Very helpful post, Loobo,

And although having applied doesn't get round the problem because it can't be "Although they were having applied....." I can't think of a possible elision.

Do you think that answers our problem, Imladris?


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## Imladris

Transatlantic said:


> All the -ing forms above are gerunds. So, it appears that you use "despite" when the subject of the main clause is not the same as the entity referred to by a gerund and you use "although" when it is.
> 
> Also, when you use "despite", the subject of the finite clause is the same as the doer of the action depicted by the gerund. When you use "although", it isn't.



A contradictory post, I must say. Can you paraphrase the above? 



Transatlantic said:


> In the sentence:
> 
> *Although accounting for only 5 percent of the world's population, United States citizens consume 28 percent of its nonrenewable resources*
> 
> 
> "Accounting" is a participle, and its (logical, hidden, underlying) subject is "US citizens" BUT "US citizens" *is not the same as* "accounting".
> 
> So, if "accounting" were a gerund (and you insisted on using "although"), the subject of the finite clause (after the comma) would have to be the same as that gerund.
> 
> Here's an example.
> 
> *Although accounting is a boring subject to study, it can help you find a good job. *



So you mean "applying" is the same as "he"? I do not see any differnce between "Although accounting" and "Although applying".


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## Imladris

Loob said:


> "Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund.
> 
> _Despite the war, they stayed together. Despite that, they were still in love. Despite knowing each other's faults, they remained in love._ _Despite applying/having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._
> 
> "Athough" is a conjunction; it's followed by a verb. If the verb is 'to be', it can be elided. In practice we do this elision in two stages. We start with the present/past simple:_ Although_ _they remained in love. _We convert this to the continuous _Although they were remaining in love. _We drop the verb 'to be' _Although remaining in love._
> 
> You can't do a similar two-stage process with 'although applying' in your original context, Imladris. The tense in the "although" clause has to fit the tense in the main clause. That's why 'although applying' doesn't work.



I couldn' get your last paragraph.  "Although he was applying" is as meaningful as "Although they were remaining".


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## Imladris

Thomas Tompion said:


> Very helpful post, Loobo,
> 
> And although having applied doesn't get round the problem because it can't be "Although they were having applied....." I can't think of a possible elision.
> 
> Do you think that answers our problem, Imladris?



Unfortunately, no.

Although accounting for ..., US citizens ... [= Although US citizens account for ..., they ...]
Although applying for ..., he is still ... [=  Although he applied / has applied for ..., he ...]

The second one does not seem to allow a present tense interpretation of the verb "apply". [=  Although he applies for ..., he ...]


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## Thomas Tompion

Imladris said:


> [...]
> So you mean "applying" is the same as "he"? I do not see any differnce between "Although accounting" and "Although applying".


I must say I sympathize, Imladris. 

1. Although accounting for 5%...., United States citizens....

2. Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work. 

People are telling you that 1. is correct and 2. is wrong. Some have suggested that the problem with 2. is that the fact that he is applying doesn't make him less likely to be out of work; for that the applications need to be in the past. Yet if we correct for that

3. Although having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.  it still doesn't work.

The books typically explain all this simply by saying that despite is a preposition and must be followed by a noun and although a conjunction which must be followed by a verb.

e.g. Preposition: *Despite* the heat, we enjoyed ourselves.
Conjunction: *Although* it was hot, we enjoyed ourselves.

Although works well in cases like this, below:

Although hot he enjoyed himself. This means Although he was hot, he enjoyed himself.

To use despite you'd need to say: Despite being hot, he enjoyed himself.

It's easy to say that the reason why 1. Although accounting for 5%...., United States citizens.... works is that it means: 
Although they account for 5%...., United States citizens.... (the switch from the present continuous to the simple present doesn't seem to matter).

But if that's true what about Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work? We might say 
Although he is applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work., and we easily could say:
Although he has been applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.

I think this is interesting. I'll keep thinking!


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## Imladris

I wonder whether there is a distinction between "have, be" and the other verbs in this respect.
*
Although having three children, she lives on her own.
Although being a skilful man, he is unemployed. 

Although studying hard, he failed the test. *[This must be wrong]
* 
Although holding 10, 000 people, the stadium is considered as small according to X standards. *[If correct, I can say the verbs "account for" and "hold"  are similar. "contain" is another similar one.  ] Stretch is yet another.

*Although stretching over* 1,000 miles from the Mekong Delta and Ho Chi Minh in the south to Hanoi and the Gulf of Tongking in the north, Vietnam is barely 100 miles wide in most sections, hemmed up against the South China Sea by the rumps of Cambodia and Laos to its west.

It seems to me with such vebs (account for, hold, contain, stretch, ...), there is a much stronger relationship between the subject and the verb than other vers like "apply, study, ..."


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## Thomas Tompion

I'll give you my reactions to these, Imladris.

*Although having three children, she lives on her own. *OK, but *despite* would be better.
*Although being a skilful man, he is unemployed. * OK, but *despite* would be better - *although a skilful man*... would work.

*Although studying hard, he failed the test. *[This must be wrong] It's like the applying example we've been looking at.  He wasn't studying hard as he failed the test.
*
Although holding 10, 000 people, the stadium is considered as small according to X standards. *[If correct, I can say the verbs "account for" and "hold" are similar. "contain" is another similar one. ] Stretch is yet another.

*Although stretching over* 1,000 miles from the Mekong Delta and Ho Chi Minh in the south to Hanoi and the Gulf of Tongking in the north, Vietnam is barely 100 miles wide in most sections, hemmed up against the South China Sea by the rumps of Cambodia and Laos to its west.


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## Imladris

*although a skilful man*...would work.

I am curious/doubtful about this.


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## LV4-26

Yes, _although a skillful man _is fine.
It comes from _although he was a skillful man_, after [subject + be]-deletion, as per Loob's post #17.


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## Imladris

*[1]  Despite three naughty children, she manages the house really well. 
[2]  Although a mischiveous child,  he was popular among  his friends. 
[3]  Although mischiveous,  he was popular among  his friends. *

Is 2 wrong?


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## Thomas Tompion

Imladris said:


> *[1] Despite three naughty children, she manages the house really well. *
> *[2] Although a mischiveous child, he was popular among his friends. *
> *[3] Although mischiveous, he was popular among his friends. *
> 
> Is 2 wrong? Not in my view.


 
Have we cracked it, Imladris? These are all fine. I take my hat off to you for your persistence.


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## Imladris

We almost got to the bottom, I think.   And thank you for your persistent answers, for not giving up.


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## JungKim

The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, at page 736, says that the complement of 'although'/'though' "*may be a full content clause or it may be reduced to a participial and verbless clause*":
(1) Though living in Holland he works in Germany.
(2) Although elected to the Council he can't take up his seat.
(3) Though an American citizen, he has never lived in the States.

(These three examples are directly taken from the CGEL. The first two have participial clauses, the third a verbless one.)

The CGEL does not mention any further condition under which the content-clause complement may or may not be reduced to a participial clause. I came to a conclusion, therefore, that such a participial complement is generally grammatical, although perhaps less frequently used than is its counterpart content-clause form or an equivalent 'despite + ~ing' form.

And I think that the GMAT question is proof positive of this conclusion.

I'd like to know what others think, particularly those who had previously participated in this thread.


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## Thomas Tompion

If you look at the thread, JungKim, I think you'll find we agreed with the Cambridge Grammar.


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## wandle

The examples where 'although' is correctly used without a verb all seem to be cases where the verb, if present, would be one of state: the 'although' phrase is expressing a state, not an action.

In the original sentence, 'apply' is a verb of action, not state, and in that case 'although' is not correct.


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## JungKim

Thomas Tompion said:


> If you look at the thread, JungKim, I think you'll find we agreed with the Cambridge Grammar.



My bad!  I failed to notice there is another page and was responding to page 1 only.

Actually, this had happened to me several times before. When you click on the thread title, you are always on page 1, even when there are subsequent pages. 

Maybe it'd be better if things could be changed so that you're on the last page when you enter the thread??


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> The examples where 'although' is correctly used without a verb all seem to be cases where the verb, if present, would be one of state: the 'although' phrase is expressing a state, not an action.
> 
> In the original sentence, 'apply' is a verb of action, not state, and in that case 'although' is not correct.



'to elect someone' as in (2) is not a state verb, is it?


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## Thomas Tompion

JungKim said:


> 'to elect someone' as in (2) is not a state verb, is it?


No, I wouldn't say it was.

Also, I think the question of whether it is a stative verb or not is a red herring.

*Although* is used with both stative verbs - *although he understands the principle, he cannot apply it* - and dynamic ones - *although he is running downhill, he is still getting very tired*.


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## wandle

JungKim said:


> 'to elect someone' as in (2) is not a state verb, is it?


'Elected' is a passive participle which here expresses the position or status of the person.

Similarly, 'to damage' is a verb of action, but 'damaged' as the passive participle can express the state something is in.


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## wandle

Thomas Tompion said:


> *Although* is used with both stative verbs - *although he understands the principle, he cannot apply it* - and dynamic ones - *although he is running downhill, he is still getting very tired*.


'Although' as a conjunction introducing a full clause can of course take any verb.
The question here is what it can do in a phrase without a finite verb.
I believe it can be used with phrases that express a state but not an action: which would seem to agree with the conclusion of post 9.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> 'Elected' is a passive participle which here expresses the position or status of the person.
> 
> Similarly, 'to damage' is a verb of action, but 'damaged' as the passive participle can express the state something is in.



(1) Though living in Holland he works in Germany.
(4) Though working in Germany he lives in Holland.

So you're saying that while (1) is fine, (4) is not??
That doesn't seem very convincing.


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## wandle

JungKim said:


> (1) Though living in Holland he works in Germany.
> (4) Though working in Germany he lives in Holland.
> 
> So you're saying that while (1) is fine, (4) is not??
> That doesn't seem very convincing.


I have not said that at all.

The phrase 'working in Germany' expresses a state of affairs: it is characterising the situation of the individual.

Consider on the other hand the sentence 'Despite working all day, he had to leave the job unfinished'.
In this case, 'working all day' expresses a specific action. Here, just as in post 1, it would not be correct to replace 'despite' with 'although'.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> I have not said that at all.
> 
> The phrase 'working in Germany' expresses a state of affairs: it is characterising the situation of the individual.
> 
> Consider on the other hand the sentence 'Despite working all day, he had to leave the job unfinished'.
> In this case, 'working all day' expresses a specific action. Here, just as in post 1, it would not be correct to replace 'despite' with 'although'.



I don't think you can differentiate these two, at least not semantically:
(4) Although working in Germany he lives in Holland.
(5) Although he works in Germany he lives in Holland.

If you're saying these are semantically different, I do not get it.


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## wandle

JungKim said:


> I don't think you can differentiate these two, at least not semantically:
> (4) Although working in Germany he lives in Holland.
> (5) Although he works in Germany he lives in Holland.
> 
> If you're saying these are semantically different, I do not get it.



I have not said that either. Both sentences express the same state of affairs.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> I have not said that at all.
> 
> The phrase 'working in Germany' expresses a state of affairs: it is characterising the situation of the individual.
> 
> Consider on the other hand the sentence 'Despite working all day, he had to leave the job unfinished'.
> In this case, 'working all day' expresses a specific action. Here, just as in post 1, it would not be correct to replace 'despite' with 'although'.



I think I finally figured out what you were saying.
And I did some research. Please see if these two examples express a specific action or a state of affairs:

[1]
LSH, for their part, *although working hard with effort and endeavour in abundance*, let themselves down with poor decision-making; a lack of penetration when attacking; and some indifferent tackling.

For more context, see: http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/10120875.Liverpool_St_Helens_15_Carlisle_19/

[2]
Richard Dennis, *although working his way up from a runner*, really began his reputation as large trader in the 70’s.

For more context, see: http://www.danielstrading.com/blog/...futures-past-present-and-future/#.UN2P6OTZbNg


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## wandle

In sentence [1], if we convert the 'although' phrase to a clause, we have 'although they were working hard'.
Thus the omitted verb is the verb 'to be' and the clause is expressing a state of affairs that existed as the background to the mistakes that were made from time to time.

In sentence [2], on the other hand, the 'although' phrase converts to 'although he had worked his way up'. The omitted verb is the active auxiliary 'to have'. The sense cannot be that he was working his way up from a runner at the time he was operating as a large trader.

Hence I would see [1] as a correct use of 'although' and [2] as incorrect.
[2] would be correct if 'although' were omitted and the perfect participle were used: 

_Richard Dennis, having worked his way up from a runner, really began his reputation as large trader in the 70’s._

There is in my view no contrast in sense that would justify 'although' or other adversative term.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> In sentence [1], if we convert the 'although' phrase to a clause, we have 'although they were working hard'.
> Thus the omitted verb is the verb 'to be' and the clause is expressing a state of affairs that existed as the background to the mistakes that were made from time to time.
> 
> In sentence [2], on the other hand, the 'although' phrase converts to 'although he had worked his way up'. The omitted verb is the active auxiliary 'to have'. The sense cannot be that he was working his way up from a runner at the time he was operating as a large trader.
> 
> Hence I would see [1] as a correct use of 'although' and [2] as incorrect.
> [2] would be correct if 'although' were omitted and the perfect participle were used:
> 
> _Richard Dennis, having worked his way up from a runner, really began his reputation as large trader in the 70’s._
> 
> There is in my view no contrast in sense that would justify 'although' or other adversative term.



In [1], is there any reason for sticking to the progressive aspect interpretation of the verb 'to work'? 

IMHO, I don't know why [1] can't mean: "LSH, for their part, although they *worked *hard with effort and endeavour in abundance, let themselves down with poor decision-making..."

In [2], are you suggesting that it is incorrect to use 'although' in front of a perfect-aspect participial clause such as 'having worked...'? 

Regarding the aspect/tense problem in [2], you use 'although he had worked...' or '(although) having worked...' in order to indicate that the action of 'working...' occurred prior to the action of 'beginning his reputation as large trader'. 

When the context is clear as to which one comes first, I think that you are not obligated to use the perfect aspect/tense in either a finite or a non-finite clause. 

And you were indeed able to figure out from the context which one comes first in [2]. Hence, the tense/aspect correction is not obligatory, although perhaps preferable from the prescriptive grammar standpoint. 

I like the descriptive grammar better and hate to think that an educated native speaker should not use what s/he normally would otherwise.


----------



## wandle

For me, there is a right and a wrong way to use the word 'although', as there is with any word.
I am not aware of any way to learn, teach or use a language other than by forming rules - consciously or unconsciously.
Descriptive grammmar describes language: it does not teach it.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> For me, there is a right and a wrong way to use the word 'although', as there is with any word.
> I am not aware of any way to learn, teach or use a language other than by forming rules - consciously or unconsciously.
> Descriptive grammmar describes language: it does not teach it.


I got it. 

And according to the rules, could you answer the couple of questions in my prior post?

Also, I'd like you to comment on my understanding of the aspect/tense issue and to tell me whether you think it's right or wrong.


----------



## wandle

It is not always easy to answer questions which seem to generalise in a different direction. The word 'although' is a conjunction, not a preposition, which means it normally introduces a clause (that is, with a finite verb). The issue here is in what circumstances 'although' can properly be used to introduce a phrase (that is, without a finite verb). I believe this can be done when the phrase expresses a background state of affairs as distinct from a concrete action or event.


> In [1], is there any reason for sticking to the progressive aspect interpretation of the verb 'to work'?
> 
> _"LSH, for their part, although working hard with effort and endeavour in abundance, let themselves down with poor decision-making..."_


The author's meaning is that LSH (the oldest open rugby club in the world, by the way) were working hard throughout the match, but made critical mistakes from time to time. Your suggested alternative conveys the same meaning:


> _"LSH, for their part, although they worked hard with effort and endeavour in abundance, let themselves down with poor decision-making..."_


This is a case where both author and reader are mutually aware (a) that the activity was continued over a period and (b) that it is now over. Because that is so, once you expand to a full clause, either the continuous or simple form will work.


> In [2], are you suggesting that it is incorrect to use 'although' in front of a perfect-aspect participial clause such as 'having worked...'?


I had not said that. 'Although working his way up' is wrong for two reasons: (1) the activity must have preceded the time of the main verb and (2) there is no contrast or conflict between the two ideas expressed which would justify using 'although' (or any other word expressing a clash of ideas). (Another piece of bad English in that quote is 'began his reputation'.)

On the other hand, it would make sense to say:
_'Despite having worked his way up from a runner, he had no sympathy for anyone trying to follow in his footsteps'_.

Could 'although' replace 'despite' in this case? I think not, because 'having worked' represents a completed course of action seen as a concrete fact rather than a background (simultaneous) state of affairs. 
If we want to use 'although' in this case, we have to convert to a clause: 
_'Although he had worked his way up from a runner, he had no sympathy for anyone trying to follow in his footsteps'_.

In the LSH example, by contrast, the 'working hard' is a simultaneous background to the main verb, not something previously completed.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> ...
> This is a case where both author and reader are mutually aware (a) that the activity was continued over a period and (b) that it is now over. Because that is so, once you expand to a full clause, either the continuous or simple form will work.
> ...



Is there any activity that does not continue over a period of time? No.
I mean, any activity in the past (a) was continued over a period and (b) is now over.

Could you tell me what you're trying to say in the quoted portion?
I'm asking this because I really don't get it.


----------



## wandle

JungKim said:


> Could you tell me what you're trying to say in the quoted portion?
> I'm asking this because I really don't get it.


That portion explains why the phrase 'although working hard' could be expanded into either 'although they were working hard' or 'although they worked hard': and the meaning would remain unchanged in each case.

However, it could not be expanded into 'although they had worked hard' without changing the meaning.


JungKim said:


> Is there any activity that does not continue over a period of time? No.
> I mean, any activity in the past (a) was continued over a period and (b) is now over.


The author and the reader of the match report both know that the rugby game went on for a period and is now over.
On the other hand, in a fictional story, the author knows when the action described will end, but the reader does not.


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## JungKim

Here's another example from The Cambridge Grammar:


> Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all.


The CGEL suggests on page 1262 that the gerund-participial "claiming to have a Ph.D." was reduced from "Although he claimed to have a Ph.D." 

I understand that "Despite claiming to have a Ph.D., ~" would be more usual, but would like to know how to differentiate this example from the OP's ungrammatical one ("Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.") or from post #24's ungrammatical one ("Although studying hard, he failed the test.").


----------



## PaulQ

Two points:



I see Loob’s post at http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1223142&p=6271224#post6271224 as very helpful





> "Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund.
> 
> _Despite the war, they stayed together. Despite that, they were still in love. Despite knowing each other's faults, they remained in love._ _Despite applying/having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._
> 
> "Although" is a conjunction; it's followed by a verb.



The inversion in all the examples quoted throughout this thread is unhelpful. If we place the clauses in the order they are expected to take then matters become, at least to me, clearer:
 
He didn't in fact have any degree at all although claiming to have a Ph.D.
He didn't in fact have any degree at all despite claiming to have a Ph.D.

This makes it clear that *despite *is correct and *although *isn’t, and that the difference is the function of the words (as per Loob) rather than anything else.


----------



## JungKim

PaulQ said:


> Two points:
> 
> 
> 
> I see Loob’s post at http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1223142&p=6271224#post6271224 as very helpful
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund.
> 
> _Despite the war, they stayed together. Despite that, they were still in love. Despite knowing each other's faults, they remained in love. Despite applying/having applied for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.
> 
> _"Although" is a conjunction; it's followed by a verb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The inversion in all the examples quoted throughout this thread is unhelpful. If we place the clauses in the order they are expected to take then matters become, at least to me, clearer:
> 
> He didn't in fact have any degree at all although claiming to have a Ph.D.
> He didn't in fact have any degree at all despite claiming to have a Ph.D.
> 
> This makes it clear that *despite *is correct and *although *isn’t, and that the difference is the function of the words (as per Loob) rather than anything else.
Click to expand...


I do agree with the quoted portion of the Loob's post. Were the rule that simple without any exceptions, I'd happy to abide by it. As seen in post #4, however, the GMAT test has "Although accounting for" as the best answer. Had I simply memorized the Loob's simple rule as quoted above and had I taken that GMAT test, I would have picked the wrong answer or I would have been very confused at the very least. And whenever I encounter such examples as "although + ~ing form" in a writing, I would not feel very confident. 

So I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, no matter how complicated the truth seems.

Now, turning to the latter part of your post, I don't quite understand how simply moving around the subordinate clause after the main clause "makes it clear that *despite *is correct and *although *isn’t," to quote your wording.


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## PaulQ

JungKim said:


> I do agree with the quoted portion of the Loob's post. Were the *rule *that simple without any exceptions,


Rule!???  Have you read my signature. There are no rules. If there were rules there would be no arguments, no discussion, no evolution of speech. 



> I'd happy to abide by it. As seen in post #4, however, the GMAT test has "Although accounting for" as the best answer. Had I simply memorized the Loob's simple rule as quoted above and had I taken that GMAT test, I would have picked the wrong answer or I would have been very confused at the very least.


But you did not, and so that is water under the bridge... 





> And whenever I encounter such examples as "although + ~ing form" in a writing, I would not feel very confident.


Having read many of your posts, I can hardly believe you would lack confidence. 



> So I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, no matter how complicated the truth seems.


 it is no use, I'm sorry, I cannot resist:





> Jack Nicholson's furious court room bust up with Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men" is Britain's most popular all time sound bite. The rant, including the line *'The Truth? You can't handle the truth'*, has topped a poll of the most memorable quotes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...oom-rant-voted-most-memorable-quote-ever.html



> Now, turning to the latter part of your post, I don't quite understand how simply moving around the subordinate clause after the main clause "makes it clear that *despite *is correct and *although *isn’t," to quote your wording.


It is simply the sound of the sentences when placed in that order. I suggest you adopt this as a means of testing if sentences comprising a subordinate clause followed by a main clause sound right when reversed. However, I realise (and did when I wrote it) that it was subjective.

Let's look at the words:

despite = in spite of. Here we have a negating or contrasting experience that follows the main clause: 
"He thought he was the fastest runner, despite being beaten by Jones." There is a defiance in this.
"He won the race despite having only one leg." - even *this* did not prevent him" (You should look up the word "spite" and see its nuances.)

and as Loob says ""Despite" is a preposition; it's followed by a noun, pronoun, or gerund." We can say, "If it isn't followed in this way, then use "although" (if you think it appropriate.)

Although ~= nevertheless. Here we have something that is mild and almost concessionary:
"He thought he was the fastest runner, although he was beaten by Jones." It looks as if he (or the reporter) will come up with a reasonable excuse/explanation.
"He won the race although he had only one leg." 

As "although is a conjunction, we can expect a subordinate clause to follow.

A couple of definitions from OED:





> In spite of: 5. a. phr. in spite of: in defiance (†scorn or contempt) of; in the face of; notwithstanding. (Cf. despite n. 5.)
> 
> Although: 1. a. Even though; granting or supposing that; notwithstanding the fact that (something is, or may be, the case).



OK. So now you know that (i) *despite *and *although *are different in meaning and (ii) you know how to use them and (iii) you know that they are different parts of speech, I feel assured that, should you ever come across that terrible that GMAT test again, you will be *brimming *with confidence in the face of adversity and, whilst others sweat nervously, for you the glittering prizes and the Towers of Academe await...

Surely there can be no further questions? Can you handle the truth?


----------



## JungKim

I'd rather not quote your previous post, for it is way too lengthy and I don't know what to select.
Paul, I really appreciate your guidance, and I really, really wish it resolved all this confusion. But the truth of the matter is harsher than I wish. I'm not sure if I can handle the truth but I will certainly not avoid it.

Now let me get down to the nitty-gritty one by one.

It really doesn't matter whether you want to call it a rule or a yardstick or a criterion or something else. The portion of the Loob's post that you mentioned does set forth something clear-cut, which, a rule or not, simply doesn't cut it, unless I want to avoid the truth.

Regarding your insight into the semantic difference between 'despite/in spite of' and 'although', I do think I understand but at the same time I think that's way too deep. It's somewhat hard to believe that native speakers in general would be conscious of such a subtle semantic distinction whenever they determine which to use between 'despite/in spite of' and 'although'. And even if they did, I'm not sure how this method of yours would enable me to pick the right answer at the GMAT test and determine the CGEL sentence of post #51 is grammatical, given that you have said that the CGEL sentence "isn't [correct]."


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## PaulQ

JungKim said:


> It's somewhat hard to believe that native speakers in general would be conscious of such a subtle semantic distinction whenever they determine which to use between 'despite/in spite of' and 'although'.


And yet they do. 

What you have written is illogical. It is known as "appeal to ignorance." (It's not insulting ) It suggests that because you cannot accept something, it cannot be done/exist. I suggest you try to learn Finnish or Basque and see how complex they are - yet people speak these languages and - more surprisingly - they speak them well.

That said, your vocabulary, syntax and grammar suggest that you have a very good command of English. If you have ever come into contact with native English speakers, you will see how within 200 unprepared words, most of them have made a mistake but life and the conversation goes on. 

Certainly, in the days when my German was better, I could pick out native speakers' mistakes. And I will not believe you if you tell me that all Koreans speak flawless Korean (and neither would anyone else.) So you cannot use the argument "not everyone does it" because this is not what you are asking. You are asking, "If I wish to do it properly, how should I do it?"

And I (and, for that matter, others) am telling you. 

PS, as far as the example in #51 is concerned, I understand what is being said perfectly and consider the guidance to be both helpful and good. I suggest you look at it again and see what is actually being said, not what you think it might say.


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## Thomas Tompion

JungKim said:


> [...] It's somewhat hard to believe that native speakers in general would be conscious of such a subtle semantic distinction whenever they determine which to use between 'despite/in spite of' and 'although'.


I think you should accept, JungKim, that many native speakers do make this distinction, although this may seem surprising to you (despite its seeming surprising to you).


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## JungKim

Thomas Tompion said:


> I think you should accept, JungKim, that many native speakers do make this distinction, although this may seem surprising to you (despite its seeming surprising to you).



That I can happily accept. No reason not to be able to. Easy. (See, I said _somewhat hard_, not _extremely hard_. )
What's not easy is, as I put it in post #51, to differentiate the CGEL's *grammatical* example (_Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all._) from the OP's *ungrammatical *one (_Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._) or from post #24's *ungrammatical* one (_Although studying hard, he failed the test._).


----------



## wandle

Well, I suggested a way to differentiate such cases in post 38 and developed it further in post 48:


wandle said:


> The word 'although' is a conjunction, not a preposition, which means it normally introduces a clause (that is, with a finite verb). The issue here is in what circumstances 'although' can properly be used to introduce a phrase (that is, without a finite verb). I believe this can be done when the phrase expresses a background state of affairs as distinct from a concrete action or event.


This principle works well with the examples quoted. 
Note: by 'a background state of affairs' I mean a state (as distinct from a concrete action) which exists at the time expressed by the main verb. 


> Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all.


In this case, we understand that  the word 'claiming' does not refer to the action of making such a claim (for example, when submitting an application) but to the maintenance of the claim over time after it has first been put forward.
Once it has been put forward initially, the claim continues to exist in the minds of those concerned, even if the person never repeats the claim, unless and until it be withdrawn or disproved.


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## PaulQ

Let us look at what you have been told.





PaulQ said:


> […] you know that (i) *despite *and *although *are different in meaning and (ii) you know how to use them and (iii) you know that they are different parts of speech,





PaulQ said:


> PS, as far as the example in #51 is concerned, I understand what is being said perfectly and consider the guidance to be both helpful and good. I suggest you look at it again and see what is actually being said, not what you think it might say.


 Let us have a look at what The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language does say and in what context it is set.The title of the section is:


> *3 Non-finite complements in the structure of PPs Gerund-participles.*
> 
> These occur very freely as complement of *a preposition*: [my emphasis PQ]
> [21]i. _I’m looking forward [to [you/your.] returning home]. _
> ii. _[On hearing the news, she immediately telephoned her father. _
> iii. _She was reported [as _saying _that she would appeal against the ruling.] _
> iv. _[Although claiming to have aPh.D.,_ _he didn’t in fact have any degree at all. _
> 
> _Although _more often occurs with a finite complement [as in _although he claimed to have a Ph.D.]. _Such clauses can be reduced to gerund-participles, past-participles or verbless clauses: see [31] para. 10 for a list of prepositions of this kind.


Firstly, we know the authors have made a mistake as "although" is a *conjunction *and not a *preposition*1. You will note that the *although* clause is the only one that produces a comment. This is because the author's are _mistaken _and yet seek to justify what they have written. (the other examples are fine.)

If I remember correctly, Loob’s post makes reference to another authority that takes the correct line and you should accept this, given that the section above is not specifically on the use of *although/despite *and in view of the advice that you have so far received.

You seem to be have an absolute and fundamental faith in one single authority in the face of other authorities and the advice that you are receiving here. You did not notice the error. I suggest that you take a deep breath and accept, as a rule2, what has been said here – at least you will not be wrong.

1 this is from the OED.
2 I will set aside my signature, just to have you accept what has been said.


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## JungKim

Dear Paul,
Please don't jump to the conclusion that the CGEL's mistaken simply because they reclassified "although" and some other traditional conjunctions as prepositions. Their reclassification is intentional and based on years of linguistic research into the language by numerous linguists. Of course, you may or may not accept their approach but that's a non-issue here. Plus, the 'although' example sentences in the CGEL are not themselves faulty.

Also, the issue of this entire thread is not about the although/despite distinction. Rather, it's under what circumstances you may or may not reduce the finite clause of 'although' to the non-finite clause (specifically ~ing form) of 'although'. So the portion of the CGEL I have cited in post #51, I believe, is relevant.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> In this case, we understand that  the word 'claiming' does not refer to the action of making such a claim (for example, when submitting an application) but to the maintenance of the claim over time after it has first been put forward.
> Once it has been put forward initially, the claim continues to exist in the minds of those concerned, even if the person never repeats the claim, unless and until it be withdrawn or disproved.


That's very deep, is all I can say. 
As much as I'd like to understand what you're saying, I'd also like to know if there is any reference (preferably a book) that you know of that applies this "state of affairs vs. action/even" distinction to reducing 'although + finite clause' to 'although + ~ing'.


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## PaulQ

JungKim said:


> ]Also, the issue of this entire thread is not about the although/despite distinction. Rather, it's under what circumstances you may or may not reduce the finite clause of 'although' to the non-finite clause (specifically ~ing form) of 'although'. So the portion of the CGEL I have cited in post #51, I believe, is relevant.


I fail to see how you can reach this conclusion when it appears to be based on the misconception that although is a preposition.

"All trees have leaves, my dog is a tree, therefore my dog has leaves." the erroneous premise makes nonsense of the conclusion.

Just for the sake of argument, remove the reference to although in the quoted piece and what guidance do you have left, and is that guidance good? -> does that guidance work?

The alternative is that you come up with a better theory, and I don't think you can.


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## wandle

JungKim said:


> That's very deep, is all I can say.


Not too deep, I hope. We can imagine two typical situations for the following sentence:


> Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all.


(a) It refers to a job interview in which the applicant says he has a Ph.D.
(b) It refers to a period of employment following a successful application in which he claimed to have a Ph.D.

I had (b) in mind when saying that the claim remains in existence after it has been made. In other words, all those around him are going on the assumption that he has a Ph.D. They are relying on his word. This state of affairs continues to exist even if no further mention is made of it. The responsibility for it lies with the claimant.
In case (a), the claim that he has a Ph.D. also remains in existence throughout the interview. 


> I'd also like to know if there is any reference (preferably a book) that you know of that applies this "state of affairs vs. action/even" distinction to reducing 'although + finite clause' to 'although + ~ing'.


It is my own idea, developed in response to this thread. It is not just about a state as against a concrete action or event. It is also about simultaneity. It seems to me to be a logical point. I am not sure it helps to see it in terms of 'reducing' a clause.

'Although' is regularly used in phrases which have no participle. _'Although very hungry, he carried on working'_. It is clear here and in any similar case that the meaning of the 'although' phrase applies at the time expressed by the verb 'carried on'.

If we include a participle, _'Although feeling very hungry, he carried on working'_, the sentence remains valid as the participle here is expressing a state of affairs simultaneous with the time of the main verb.

This is equivalent to _'Although he was feeling very hungry, he carried on working'_. 
Now, as far as the time relation is concerned, the situation seems to me comparable to other sentence-types in which the past continuous provides a background to a concrete action, such as _'While he was swimming, he grazed his knee on a rock'_. It is logically necessary that the swimming was going on at the time when the knee was grazed.


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## Loob

JungKim said:


> [...]
> What's not easy is, as I put it in post #51, to differentiate the CGEL's *grammatical* example (_Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all._) from the OP's *ungrammatical *one (_Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work._) or from post #24's *ungrammatical* one (_Although studying hard, he failed the test._).


JungKim, I think the key point is the one wandle makes in post 64 about simultaneity.  That's also one of the points that I was trying to make in the second half of my post 17.

If we translate the three sentences into sentences using "but", you can see the difference between them:
_(1) He claimed to have a Ph.D., but he didn't in fact have any degree at all.
_The time-frame of "claimed" is the same as the time-frame of "didn't have" --- so_
Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all_ is grammatical_.__
(2) He has applied for hundreds of jobs, but he is still out of work.
_The time-frame of "has applied" is not the same as the time-frame of "is" --- so_
Although applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work _is not grammatical._
(3) __He had studied hard, but he failed the test._
The time-frame of "had studied" is not the same as the time-frame of "failed" --- so
_Although studying hard, he failed the test _is not grammatical.

Does this help?


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## JungKim

Thank you everyone, paul, wandle, Loob, etc.
I think it's becoming clear.
Now let me just doublecheck my newfound understanding. 
What if you're a reporter describing a harsh job market in, say Spain, and you want to make a factual statement that most college graduates in Spain apply for hundreds of jobs, but they are still out of work.
And you could make the factual statement by saying, "Although applying for hundreds of jobs, most college graduates are still out of work." Does this sentence work?


----------



## wandle

JungKim said:


> "Although applying for hundreds of jobs, most college graduates are still out of work." Does this sentence work?


Even though this implies large numbers of applicants, each job application is still a deliberate act, not a state.
Being out of work is a state which, for the purpose of the intended contrast here, is assessed only after the applications have been made and have failed. Both these points, in my view, work against the phrase _'Although applying for hundreds of jobs'_.

On the other hand, _'Despite having applied for hundreds of jobs' _works well.


----------



## JungKim

wandle said:


> Even though this implies large numbers of applicants, each job application is still a deliberate act, not a state.
> Being out of work is a state which, for the purpose of the intended contrast here, is assessed only after the applications have been made and have failed. Both these points, in my view, work against the phrase _'Although applying for hundreds of jobs'_.
> 
> On the other hand, _'Despite having applied for hundreds of jobs' _works well.



In this particular context of post #66's example, being out of work is *not *a state which is assessed only after the applications have been made and have failed. 

The unemployed remain in the same state of being out of work both (1) before the applications have been made, and (2) after the applications have been made and have failed. 

They have been unemployed since graduation and still are unemployed. Nothing has happened as far as their employment status goes. Now, what has happened is that they have been applying for jobs. 

So each of the hundreds of applications happens at the time of their unemployment. We have *simultaneity *here, don't we??


----------



## wandle

JungKim said:


> The unemployed remain in the same state of being out of work both (1) before the applications have been made, and (2) after the applications have been made and have failed.


That statement is true as a matter of objective fact.


wandle said:


> Being out of work is a state which, for the purpose of the intended contrast here, is assessed only after the applications have been made and have failed.


This statement is true as an expression of the intended contrast in the sentence, which is a subjective matter: it conveys an intention in the mind of the speaker.

The word 'although' implies a contrast. If we rule the intended contrast out of consideration (which is what happens when we step back and take a purely factual, objective view), then there is no role for the word 'although' to play.

The other point, that job applications are deliberate acts, not a state, remains unaffected in any case.


----------



## JungKim

wandle said:


> wandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being out of work is a state which, for the purpose of the intended contrast here, is assessed only after the applications have been made and have failed.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement is true as an expression of the intended contrast in the sentence, which is a subjective matter: it conveys an intention in the mind of the speaker.
> 
> The word 'although' implies a contrast. If we rule the intended contrast out of consideration (which is what happens when we step back and take a purely factual, objective view), then there is no role for the word 'although' to play.
Click to expand...


True, 'although' implies a contrast. But the contrast doesn't have to be in the form of the exact time sequence expressed by your wording "assessed only after...". In fact, 'although' does not entail any timing information, unlike 'after', 'while', 'when', etc.


wandle said:


> The other point, that job applications are deliberate acts, not a state, remains unaffected in any case.



The same argument could be made for the CGEL example (_Although claiming to have a Ph.D., he didn't in fact have any degree at all._). It is a deliberate act, not a state, to "claim to have a Ph.D." itself. Of course, you have argued as follows: 


wandle said:


> In this case, we understand that the word 'claiming' does not refer to the action of making such a claim (for example, when submitting an application) but to the maintenance of the claim over time after it has first been put forward. Once it has been put forward initially, the claim continues to exist in the minds of those concerned, even if the person never repeats the claim, unless and until it be withdrawn or disproved.



I believe the same argument could be made for 'applying' in the context of job applicants in Spain as follows:
In this case, we understand that the word 'applying' does not refer to the action of submitting such an application but to the maintenance of the application over time after it has first been submitted. Once an application is put on a company's applicants' file, the application continues to exist in the file, from which the company could decide to pull the application (for review and possibly to contact the applicant) later on when the economy of Spain booms.


----------



## wandle

JungKim said:


> 'although' does not entail any timing information


My suggestion is that 'although' (in a phrase, not a clause) implies a state which exists at the time expressed by the main verb.


> the application continues to exist in the file


It may or may not, depending on each company's policy; but 'applying' in this context means the action of making an application. The term does not imply a continuing state of affairs such as exists after someone has been employed on the strength of claiming to possess a qualification. There is a legal commitment (by the employee) in the latter case, but no commitment by either party  in the former case.


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> It may or may not, depending on each company's policy; but 'applying' in this context means the action of making an application. The term does not imply a continuing state of affairs such as exists after someone has been employed on the strength of claiming to possess a qualification. There is a legal commitment (by the employee) in the latter case, but no commitment by either party  in the former case.



You basically argue that a continuing state of affairs is implied more strongly by "claiming to have a Ph.D." than by "applying for hundreds of jobs". But that's rather subjective, because it entirely depends on the context, which is unknown from these single sentences. I'll show you how subjective this can get:

For example, when you apply for jobs, you normally submit applications, which are both written and official. So even if some of the "hundreds of" companies decide not to keep the application in their respective files per their respective policy, there will be at least an official record with such companies of there having been such an application. And for those companies opting to keep the application in file, they will have the application itself in their files. Either way, it is official that such applications have been filed.

On the other hand, when you claim that you have a Ph.D., you simply state or assert it, which therefore is not written or official. Also, it's not certain to whom you have made such a claim. The impostor could have made the claim to only a few people, some of whom may or may not even quite remember the claim.

Under these circumstances, it's easier to argue that a continuing state of affairs is implied more strongly by "applying for hundreds of jobs" than by "claiming to have a Ph.D.".


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## wandle

There is a contract between an employer and an employee, which lasts as long as the employment.  That is a very clear case of a continuing state of affairs. 

The contract depends on the claim made by the employee about his qualifications.  If the claim proves false, the contract is broken. Every day that the employee continues to work and draw his pay, he is continuing his claim to have those qualifications.

There is no contract between an employer and someone who has applied for a job unsuccessfully.


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## PaulQ

On the question of simultaneity, I agree entirely with JungKim: the simultaneity is a red-herring. Any distinction is made entirely by the overall meaning of the sentence rather than although.

I am a little disappointed that Loob has embellished upon her original, and to my mind, correct version that the essence of the problem that JungKim poses is that although is a conjunction followed by a subordinate clause.

The substitution of *but *for although is unhelpful. *But *is a coordinating conjunction and therefore, following *but*, the clause can take, unstated, the verb, etc. of the previous clause, whereas a subordinate clause requires its own verb.



He went to the town but not the shops 
He went to the town although the shops 
He went to the town although the shops were shut. 
 
This makes *but *an imperfect example because the commonest way of distinguishing between a phrase and a clause is that the latter has a verb. [Yes. I know there is an argument about this, but let's run with it for the moment.]

I wish wandle had kept to the idea that he had in earlier posts in other topics, i.e. the –ing form is a category unto itself. It has separate verbal and a noun functions that are not always immediately clear.

4. Although shooting Jesse James, he stopped being a bounty hunter
5. Although the shooting of Jesse James had earned him good money, he stopped being a bounty hunter. 


JungKim queried why the reversal of the ‘clauses’ was useful, the above give a good example.

6. He stopped being a bounty hunter, although shooting Jesse James. 
7. He stopped being a bounty hunter, although the shooting of Jesse James had earned him good money.  


I would say that in 5 and 7 “the shooting” is clearly a noun, whereas “shooting” in 4 and 6 is verbal. This coincides with the (to my mind imperfect) example in “The Cambridge Grammar”. (Which example should never have been used in JungKim’s argument.)

Therefore we are back to Loob’s original and (as I see it) correct argument: Although is followed by a noun form (n. NP. Noun-gerund) a subordinate clause1/sup]. To which may be added, “but beware, the –ing form is sometimes not a noun form” particularly when, as “The Cambridge Grammar” says, it is a contraction of a verb.

1/sup].Error corrected in the light of wandle's #78 (see also #79).


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## JungKim

wandle said:


> There is a contract between an employer and an employee, which lasts as long as the employment.  That is a very clear case of a continuing state of affairs.
> 
> The contract depends on the claim made by the employee about his qualifications.  If the claim proves false, the contract is broken. Every day that the employee continues to work and draw his pay, he is continuing his claim to have those qualifications.
> 
> There is no contract between an employer and someone who has applied for a job unsuccessfully.



The CGEL's sentence itself does not warrant that there exists any such contract, does it?
It's just a hypothetical, upon which your argument is entirely based.
Likewise, my argument in post #72 is also based on another hypothetical.

Like I said in post #72, this just goes to show *how subjective this can get*, and nothing more.


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## wandle

JungKim said:


> The CGEL's sentence itself does not warrant that there exists any such contract, does it?


The case of the employee provides a valid context for the CGEL's sentence. 
However, we have not seen a valid context for the phrase 'although applying for hundreds of jobs'. 


PaulQ said:


> I wish wandle had kept to the idea that he had in earlier posts in other topics, i.e. the –ing form is a category unto itself.


Well, I am not aware of having said that. I am not even sure what it means.


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## PaulQ

wandle said:


> Well, I am not aware of having said that. I am not even sure what it means.


Have I mistaken you for another poster? I thought it was you who wanted the participle/gerund referred to as "the -ing form".


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## wandle

PaulQ said:


> I thought it was you who wanted the participle/gerund referred to as "the -ing form".


No: I believe a participle and a gerund are two different things.


PaulQ said:


> Although is followed by a noun form (n. NP. Noun-gerund).


I am afraid I do not agree with this either. It may be followed by an adjectival expression: see the third last paragraph in post 64 (where simultaneity is also explained).  'Although' may be followed by a noun or a participle, but I doubt if it can be followed by a gerund (that is, when 'although' is introducing a phrase, not a clause).


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## PaulQ

wandle said:


> I am afraid I do not agree with this either._ [Although is followed by a noun form (n. NP. Noun-gerund).]_


That was not my best-written piece, I apologise. (*Despite *was still in my mind.) I intended to say "a subordinate clause" 





> It may be followed by an adjectival expression: see the third last paragraph in post 64 (where simultaneity is also explained).


The example at #64 is clearly "Although he was hungry" with the subject and verb 'to be' omitted, as is common in English. The fact that it thus becomes an adjectival express is merely coincidental.  





> 'Although' may be followed by a noun or a participle, but I doubt if it can be followed by a gerund (that is, when 'although' is introducing a phrase, not a clause).


 see my example 4 -7 in #74 above.

I think there is no getting round the fact that *although *is a subordinating conjunction and what follows thereafter must be a subordinate clause. The question of whether the -ing form is then a gerund or a participle is critical as to whether the necessary clause is created.


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## wandle

PaulQ said:


> The example at #64 is clearly "Although he was hungry" with the subject and verb 'to be' omitted, as is common in English. The fact that it thus becomes an adjectival express is merely coincidental.


Well, I do not agree that a phrase is a clause, not even a reduced clause. 
You could just as well say that the clause is really a phrase: an expanded phrase.


> see my example 4 -7 in #74 above.


'Although shooting Jesse James' is in my view clearly a participial phrase (no gerund) and (just like 'although applying for hundreds of jobs') will only make sense in a sentence where it expresses an action going on at the same time as the main verb. This is simultaneity. It is accepted that a present participle expresses an action or state simultaneous with the action of the main verb.


> I think there is no getting round the fct that although is a subordinating conjunction and what follows thereafter must be a subordinate clause.


I believe I get around it well enough by observing that a phrase is not a clause.


> The question of whether the -ing form is then a gerund or a participle is critical as to whether the necessary clause is created.


I doubt whether 'although' (or anything else) can properly introduce a gerund in a phrase. A gerund-phrase (such as 'fox hunting') is a noun-phrase and can be subject or object of a finite verb.

We can very well say, _'Although his hobby is stamp collecting, it is not too time-consuming'_.
It is not good English, in my view, to say, _'Although stamp collecting, his hobby is not too time-consuming' _(where 'collecting' is intended as a gerund and 'stamp collecting' is a noun-phrase).

On the other hand, we could well say, _'Although an experienced stamp collector, he had never seen a Threepenny Purple before'_.


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