# Allative in Hungarian



## Ateesh6800

With reference to a question posted by *mstr* in *this thread* concerning Hungarian noun "cases", specifically, the "allative case", here's my initial response. The question was:
*"Are there uses for the <...> allative case which carries figurative meanings?"*​The allative set (triplet) of noun suffixes is *-hoz/-hez/-höz*.

Besides the basic _spatial_ meaning:
"odamegyek a fal*hoz*": "I walk (up) _to_ the wall",

it also has _figurative_ uses:
"beszél valaki*hez*": to talk _to_ someone,
where the relation is not strictly spatial but reflects a more abstract direction (here, the direction of communication).

It is also used as the obligatory case that goes with certain verbs in set phrases:

hasonlít valaki*hez*/valami*hez*
to be similar _to_ someone/something

hasonlít valamit valami*hez*
to compare something _to_ someone/something

Or:

Jól megy a sálad a szoknyád*hoz*!
Literally: 'Your shawl goes well _to_ your skirt.'
Meaning: Your shawl matches your skirt nicely!

There is a long list of expressions where the allative is used.

Does any native Hungarian speaker have any more figurative uses to add?


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## Zsanna

You mentioned _falhoz_ and that reminded me of the figurative use of
*falhoz állít valakit* (pl.a kérdésével) - put somebody up against the wall (e.g. with a question).
It may not be an innocent coincidence that the English corresponds so well to the Hungarian term... 

In any case, I think even when used figuratively, this suffix stays fairly close to its original (even if largely interpreted) meaning of "towards". 

In its basic meaning I would add that it could be "static" as well as "dynamic" in the sense that it could be accompanied with a movement from point A to point B
(like in your spatial example - he walks _towards_/_up to_ the wall)

or may not involve an actual movement of the person/thing who/which carries out the action but even then there is a "direction" expressed from point A towards point B. (like in your figurative example - he speaks _to_ someone).

My above mentioned figurative usage could still fit this little "rule".

I think it would be interesting to know whether we could find such a figurative meaning where the above mentioned schema wouldn't work.


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## francisgranada

The basic meaning is less evident in

_érteni valami*hez*_

Another example (perhaps, a little bit nearer to the basic meaning):

_hozzálátni valami*hez*_


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## mstr

Zsanna said:


> In its basic meaning I would add that it could be "static" as well as "dynamic" in the sense that it could be accompanied with a movement from point A to point B
> (like in your spatial example - he walks towards/up to the wall)



Sure. How does that explain the figurative uses in situations such as these?

Országosan ötezer nézőt kell elérni ahhoz. 

Az összefüggések alkotó alkalmazásához kíván segítséget adni.

Ezekhez a közösségekhez gyorsabban találnak meg.


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## Ateesh6800

*"Országosan ötezer nézőt kell elérni ahhoz, hogy..."*

Let's see...

"[Sentence 1 <with _kell_, _szükséges_, etc.>] *ahhoz, hogy* [Sentence 2 <in the imperative>]."

This is a conjunctive set phrase and it means:

"In order *to* [Sentence 2 <in the infinitive>], [Sentence 1 <with _have to_, _is needed/necessary_, etc.>]."
If you explain why _"(in order) *to* + infinitive"_ represents the _objective_ or the _goal_ or the _purpose_ in a compound sentence in English, I'll explain why _"ah*hoz*, hogy"_ represents the same in Hungarian.  There must be a reason as both *to* and *-hoz/-hez/-höz* signify a _direction_; in this case it is a figurative direction connecting the _condition_ with/to the _purpose_.​This is how it works. You take two basic sentences:

[S1] *Száz forint kell.* ("100 forints are needed." <indicative>)
[S2] *Veszel egy gömb fagyit.* ("You buy one scoop/ball of icecream." <indicative>)

[S1] will be the _condition_, [S2] will be the _objective/purpose_.

We'll express this idea:

"For you *to* buy one scoop/ball of ice cream, 100 forints are/will be needed."

Or:

"100 forints are/will be needed for you *to* buy one scoop/ball of ice cream."

(Which simply means: _"You'll need 100 forints to buy one scoop/ball of ice cream."_)

So we use this structure:

[S1 <indicative>] *ahhoz, hogy* [S2 <imperative>].
"Száz forint kell *ahhoz, hogy* *vegyél* egy gömb fagyit."

A similar sentence:

[S1] "Országosan ötezer nézőt kell elérni. <indicative>"
[S2] "A sorozatot folytatják. <indicative>"

"Országosan ötezer nézőt kell elérni *ahhoz, hogy* a sorozatot *folytassák*."

"Five thousand viewers must be reached nationally in order for the series to be continued."
(Context: when they broadcast three pilot episodes on TV or when they pur a show on stage, they measure the number of people who watch them, and if the number is high enough, the series or the show will continue; if not, it will stop.)​In this case (an in many cases) the _imperative_ (*folytatják* => *folytassák*; *veszel* => *vegyél* etc.) works very similarly to the _subjuntivo_ in Spanish and to the _infinitive of purpose_ in English.

Does this help?

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

mstr said:


> "Az összefüggések alkotó alkalmazásá*hoz* kíván segítséget adni."



*segítséget ad/nyújt valamihez* (where _"valami"_ is a _noun_ formed from an _action_/_verb_ such as, e.g., _alkalmaz_ => _alkalmazás_)

This is a construction (a set phrase) simply meaning "to provide/offer/give/extend help in doing something".

But let's simplify. We have this very basic phrase that goes with the infinitive (just like in English):

*(1)* segít csinál*ni* valamit = to help do something

segít nyelvet tanul*ni* = to help learn a language

These are basic expressions where the complement of the verb *segít *(_help_) is the _infinitive_.

*(2)* If you want to express yourself in a bit more complicated or sophisticated way, you can use a more complex/complicated structure (in the vein of _provide assistence in doing something_ instead of _help do something_) such as:

*segítséget ad/nyújt* a nyelvtanul*ásban
*OR
*segítséget ad/nyújt* a nyelvtanul*áshoz*

The two versions are similar to _provide assistance *in* do*ing* sg_ (verb + -ás/-és + -ban/-ben) and _help *(to)* do sg_ (verb + -ás/-és + -hoz/-hez/-höz).

So I would simply say that in the set phrases discussed above *-hoz/-hez/-höz* is one of the options and it expresses figuratively that the assistance helps you get closer *to* your goal/objective.

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

mstr said:


> Ezekhez a közösségekhez gyorsabban találnak meg.



This is a fragment that cannot be interpreted on its own. Please quote full sentence.

*A.*


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## Zsanna

mstr said:


> Sure. How does that explain the figurative uses in situations such as these?
> 
> 1.Országosan ötezer nézőt kell elérni ahhoz.
> 
> 2.Az összefüggések alkotó alkalmazásához kíván segítséget adni.
> 
> 3.Ezekhez a közösségekhez gyorsabban találnak meg.


 
1.+2 It may just be the question of a personal point of view but for me it is easy to replace a spatial concept of _direction _with that of _aim_ in this sentence (i.e. "we are here and our aim is there and we have to approach it")

3. As Ateesh has already indicated it, this sentence cannot be safely interpreted in this form (in fact it is difficult even to understand) but I suspect that it is a purely spatial use of the suffix and not a figurative.

However, francis's example "érteni valamihez" is more of a hard nut.
It is surely more figurative than anything else, although it is possible that in its origins it had some spatial meaning.


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## Zsanna

A little summary of the allative could also be found here.


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## DylanM98

I've seen the allative case used like this, "AHHOZ semmi köze annak" what is the rule for using "-hoz/-hez" like this?


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## Olivier0

There is not really a general rule, each word uses for its complements some cases that you have to learn when you learn the word.
Here _-hoz_ (_hez, höz_) is what is needed in _van köze vmihez_ "has to do with sth", perhaps with the same logic as in _közel vmihez_ "close to sth", _közeledik vmihez_ "approach sth", etc.
-- Olivier


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## Zsanna

I agree with Olivier, I would just like to remind you that English native speakers usually don't know the abbreviations sth/sg (= something) sb/sy (= somebody) and it is against the forum rules to use them (e.g. in English Only). 

*Mod note: Here, in the Hungarian Forum I wouldn't consider them against the rules as long as people who have learnt English as a foreign language use them - we would still have to take into consideration native speakers and not use the abbreviations they are likely not to know/use.*


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## DylanM98

The thing is I've seen it used as with in many cases, such as "az autóhoz kapod is pálinkát" you will recieve whiskey with the car. So there must be something to go by to use "-hoz/-hez" in these cases


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## Olivier0

I would see a different use of -_hoz_ in such a case (eg. _bort is kapsz hozzá_ "you also get wine with it").
 Dictionaries detail many different uses of -_hoz_ or _hozzá_, but to be simple like in an etymological dictionary, there are two main uses:
- (going) near, to(wards): _hozzá beszél_ "speaks to him/her",
- in addition to: _adj hozzá ötöt_ "add five, give five more".
-- Olivier


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## DylanM98

Oh that second definition explains alot! Thank you so much! But under which definition would "ahhoz semmi köze annak" fall under?


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## Olivier0

DylanM98 said:


> Oh that second definition explains alot! Thank  you so much! But under which definition would "ahhoz semmi köze annak"  fall under?


The first one: _ahhoz_ "to that" _semmi köze annak_ "(s)he has no relationship" = "(s)he has nothing to do with that", or even "that is none of his/her business" depending on context.
-- Olivier
PS. Encolpius: this meaning of _köz_ may be the same as _közösség_, like in _a köz _(=közösség)_ érdekeit szolgálja_.


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