# Der Zug fährt durch Frankfurt. Wir trampen über Österreich nach Italien.



## Linni

*I can't see a difference between the meanings of "durch" and "über" in the sentences below:*

*1) Der Zug fährt durch Frankfurt.*
*2) Wir trampen über Österreich nach Italien.*

I don't understand why "durch" can't be used in the second sentence and "conversely" (by the way, I can't find the right word to explain it....  Is "conversely" correct to use in the previous sentence? Probably not...).

Could you explain their meanings and tell some other examples of their usage?


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## selters

Hmm, to me it seems quite simple. _durch_ means "through", whereas _über_ means "across". Or isn't it that simple?


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## cyanista

I would add that "über" can mean "over the following route".

_Der Bus startet in München, fährt* über Frankfurt* nach Dortmund und von da  aus nach Calais.


_And, Linni, the word you're looking for is "vice versa"._
_


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## Whodunit

cyanista said:
			
		

> I would add that "über" can mean "over the following route".
> 
> _Der Bus startet in München, fährt* über Frankfurt* nach Dortmund und von da aus nach Calais._


 
Wouldn't they use "via" in English or is that possible for flights only?


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## Linni

selters said:
			
		

> Hmm, to me it seems quite simple. _durch_ means "through", whereas _über_ means "across". Or isn't it that simple?


 
Oh... What is the difference between "through" and "across", actually?


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## Lykurg

_Der Zug fährt durch Frankfurt._
_Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt nach München.
Wir trampen durch Österreich._

We use _über _to refer to an important stop, or to make clear which alternative is chosen if there are some. I think it is "via" with trains, too.

_Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt, nicht über Dresden.

 (Durch _means passing a place more consciously. And since _trampen_, hitchhiking, is a way of travelling which is nearly impossible to plan in detail, it shouldn't be treated like a place on a railway plan.

 _ Wir trampen drei Wochen lang durch Österreich und Italien.) ???

_edited to dye _
_


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## selters

Hmm, I'll give you a couple of examples, and maybe you'll see the difference.

_We travelled across the Atlantic Ocean. _is ok, but
_*We travelled through the Atlantic Ocean._ is wrong.

"Across" emphasizes the fact that you kind of are on top of something, whereas "through" also means that you have some kind of surroundings around you. Sometimes they can, however, be used interchangeably. As in:

We travelled across Austria.
We travelled through Austria.

Both work, because you are likely to have some mountains and stuff like that in Austria. But you probably wouldn't say (or write):

_*We travelled through the Great Plains_, you probably would say
_We travelled across the Great Plains_, because of the flat landscape.

But then again, even though Denmark is flat as a pancake, you can say:

_I travelled through Denmark._

Perhaps it works because it's a country, I'm starting to get unsure about it myself


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## Linni

Hmmm... It seems to be so difficult to me! Really.

I'll try to write some sentences now - could you correct them so that I know I can understand the difference between durch and über well?

(By the way, I'll rather use Czech towns, as I am not sometimes sure where exactly some German towns lie and through which towns you can get to your destinations. 
Moreover, I don't know German translations of our towns - perhaps except for Prague ... I'm sorry.)

1) Wenn man nach Prag (von hier) fährt, muss man durch Brno fahren.
2) Der Zug fährt fast über ganz Russland.
3) Wir werden durch Deutschland trampen.
4) Wir werden aus Tschechien über/durch Deutschland nach Frankreich fahren.
5) Nach Brno muss man durch Kojetín fahren.
6) Die Leute sind über ganze (ganz ?) Plzeň gelaufen. Sie mussten über den Platz durch die Straßen laufen und dort gibt es das Ziel. 

(My German is too bad - I guess that especially the last sentence doesn't make sense. Let's just suppose that some people took part in a marathon race or something through the city)


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## FloVi

Linni said:
			
		

> 1) Wenn man nach Prag (von hier) fährt, muss man durch Brno fahren.
> 2) Der Zug fährt fast über ganz Russland.
> 3) Wir werden durch Deutschland trampen.
> 4) Wir werden aus Tschechien über/durch Deutschland nach Frankreich fahren.
> 5) Nach Brno muss man durch Kojetín fahren.
> 6) Die Leute sind über ganze (ganz ?) Plzeň gelaufen. Sie mussten über den Platz durch die Straßen laufen und dort gibt es das Ziel.



Please try again and use "über" in the sense of "via".


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## Linni

FloVi said:
			
		

> Please try again and use "über" in the sense of "via".


 
That doesn't sound good... Does it mean all of them are incorrect? Oh, that's bad! 

I think I will rather have a better look first at English, after that at German prepositions....


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## FloVi

"Über" wird (in diesem Kontext) im Normalfall für Orte verwendet, die man lediglich als Stationen für den Weg von A nach D aufzählt.

"Wir starteten in der Tschechischen Republik und fuhren über ("via"!) Deutschland und Österreich nach Italien."

Steht das Durchfahren selbst im Vordergrund, kommt wieder "durch" ins Spiel:

"Wir fuhren von Tschechien nach Italien. Dabei fuhren wir auch durch ("via" funktioniert hier nicht richtig!) Deutschland und Österreich."

Übrigens, es ist zwar nicht üblich, doch "via" kann in solchen Fällen auch im Deutschen anstelle von "über" verwendet werden.


Übrigens 2: Das Beispiel mit dem Ozean passt nicht so gut, weil das "über" hier im räumlichen Sinn verwendet wird. Wir fahren über den Ozean, weil wir uns *auf* ihm befinden. Würden wir schwimmen, dann befänden wir uns *im* Ozean und es hieße: "Wir schwimmen durch den Ozean" ;-)


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## Whodunit

In my opinion, it is not as difficult as you guys are trying to make it. 



			
				Linni said:
			
		

> 1) Wenn man nach Prag (von hier aus) fährt, muss man durch/über Brno fahren.
> --> you use "durch" when it is situated exactly on your way and you have to _cross_ (I don't think one would use "cross" in English here, though)the town
> --> you use "über" when you have to take a _detour_ via Brno
> 2) Der Zug fährt fast über durch ganz Russland.
> --> "über" is not possible, because the railway does not have to take a _detour_ via Russia.
> --> you have to use "durch," because it _crosses_ the country.
> 3) Wir werden durch  Deutschland trampen.
> --> you don't take a _detour_ (or _extra way_) via Germany, therefore it should be "durch" (across/through) and not "über" (via).
> 4) Wir werden von Tschechien über/durch Deutschland nach Frankreich fahren.
> --> Germany is situated on the way to France, so it sounds fine to use "durch".
> --> if you want to emphasize that the better way would have been through Austria and Switzerland, you should use "über". But since this is not very likely, I wouldn't advise you to take this alternative.
> 5) Nach Brno (better: Um nach Brno zu gelangen,) muss man durch Kojetín fahren.
> --> same as 1)
> 6) Die Leute sind über durch ganze (ganz ?  ) Pilsen gelaufen. Sie mussten über den Platz durch die Straßen laufen und dort gab es das Ziel.
> --> "über" doesn't work here, because they didn't have to take a _detour_ to get to Plzeň, they _crossed_ the town, hence "durch".
> --> "über den Platz" is correct. It's a set phrase. "Durch den Platz" sounds strange, a bit like Austrian German.


 
Let me see if Jana agrees with me in this point: 

über - přes (přes město)
durch - _instrumental case of the noun_ (městem)


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## gaer

Lykurg said:
			
		

> _Der Zug fährt durch Frankfurt._
> _Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt nach München._
> _Wir trampen durch Österreich._
> 
> We use _über _to refer to an important stop, or to make clear which alternative is chosen if there are some. I think it is "via" with trains, too.
> 
> _Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt, nicht über Dresden._
> 
> _(Durch _means passing a place more consciously. And since _trampen_, hitchhiking, is a way of travelling which is nearly impossible to plan in detail, it shouldn't be treated like a place on a railway plan.
> 
> _Wir trampen drei Wochen lang durch Österreich und Italien.) ???_


(That light color is almost invisible on my screen and actually is painful to read.)

I can't think how to say this in English. We say something like:

The train stops at Frankfurt but not Dresden, if it is passing through both cities on the way to another.

This is only true if I understand the German, and I'm not sure I do. Trains in the US are very different, I think, unless you are talking about subways. Otherwise you really only have one choice about where you are going, so the only difference from train to train is where the individual train stops. And quite obviously we don't have trains going from country to country. Very hard, I think.

G


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## Lykurg

Sorry for choosing that colour, Gaer. I just changed it.

But no, "_Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt, nicht über Dresden." _means the train will not pass Dresden. 
Your statement would be similar in German: _"Der Zug hält in Frankfurt, aber nicht in Dresden"_.


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## gaer

Lykurg said:
			
		

> Sorry for choosing that colour, Gaer. I just changed it.
> 
> But no, "_Der Zug fährt über Frankfurt, nicht über Dresden." _means the train will not pass Dresden.
> Your statement would be similar in German: _"Der Zug hält in Frankfurt, aber nicht in Dresden"_.


Hmm. Then I totally misread the meaning of "über" here, which I've never run into. (I don't deal with train schedules or take trains, and in the rare situation in which I read about a train stopping or not stopping, context would make it clear.)

By "not pass Dresden" to you mean that it won't stop there, or that it won't even go through that city? Let me try to make my question more intelligent, if that is possible.

Let's say that a train, starting at point A, can't go any farther when it gets to point G. G is "the end of the line". But the train goes through points B, C, D, E, and F on the way to G. Now, lets suppose it stops only at point D (makes a stop at that place) and simply goes through the other "possible stops" without stopping. I assume you know that "possible stops" means that the train COULD stop at these other points if necessary but might choose not to for any number of reasons.


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## Lykurg

It won't go through Dresden. 
In deinem abstrakten Beispiel würden wir "über" verwenden - und wenn die genaue Route eine Rolle spielt, sogar für Haltetellen, in denen der Zug nicht hält - dann vermutlich mit der Anmerkung "ohne zu halten".


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## gaer

Lykurg said:
			
		

> It won't go through Dresden.
> In deinem abstrakten Beispiel würden wir "über" verwenden - und wenn die genaue Route eine Rolle spielt, sogar für Haltetellen, in denen der Zug nicht hält - dann vermutlich mit der Anmerkung "ohne zu halten".


Okay. It's always the elementary things that are the most difficult to explain and to understand. 

Gaer


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## FloVi

Macht es doch nicht so kompliziert ;-)

Es spielt keine Rolle, ob der Zug hält oder nicht. Sobald die Zwischenstationen einfach nur aufgezählt werden (etwa um eine Vorstellung von der Route zu bekommen) verwenden wir "über". In den meisten anderen Fällen "durch", besonders wenn es darum geht, einen Ort von einem Ende zum anderen zu befahren.


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## gaer

FloVi said:
			
		

> Macht es doch nicht so kompliziert ;-)
> 
> Es spielt keine Rolle, ob der Zug hält oder nicht. Sobald die Zwischenstationen einfach nur aufgezählt werden (etwa um eine Vorstellung von der Route zu bekommen) verwenden wir "über". In den meisten anderen Fällen "durch", besonders wenn es darum geht, einen Ort von einem Ende zum anderen zu befahren.


Okay. That's good enough for me. Since it's never been a problem before, I doubt if it's going to be a problem for me in the future. If it is, I'll think about it again. 

Gaer


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## Linni

Today, I was thinking of it again and I think I can understand it... a little. 
However, there is still a thing I am still wondering about:

Wenn man nach Prag (von hier aus) fährt, muss man durch/über Brno fahren.

I don't understand why "durch" can be used here as well. 
In all the other examples, when you were going "through" (I don't know whether it's the right preposition) something, when you were passing it to reach your destination, you used "über". so, why can be "durch" used here too?


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## FloVi

Linni said:


> Wenn man nach Prag (von hier aus) fährt, muss man durch/über Brno fahren.



"Brno" has here a special importance. 

"Wenn ich nach Prag fahren will, kann ich die Strecke über A oder über B nehmen, aber ich muss in jedem Fall durch Brno"

(If I drive to Prague, I can take the route via A or via B, but in every case I have to drive through Brno)


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## FloVi

> Mir fällt gerade kein Beispielsatz ein, in dem man _nur _"über" verwenden könnte. Normalerweise paßt entweder nur "durch" oder aber beides.



In Verbindung mit "Strecke" oder "Route" ist "über" die bessere Wahl.
"Die Strecke führt über..."

Es sei denn natürlich, ich will etwas anderes deutlich machen: "Diese Route führt uns quer durch die Pampa."


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## Linni

FloVi said:


> "Brno" has here a special importance.
> 
> "Wenn ich nach Prag fahren will, kann ich die Strecke über A oder über B nehmen, aber ich muss in jedem Fall durch Brno"
> 
> (If I drive to Prague, I can take the route via A or via B, but in every case I have to drive through Brno)


 

Hmm, maybe I can understand it now... 
I should try to practise it, but I don't know where - I don't know any grammar book with exercising that would deal especially with DURCH and ÜBER....


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## gaer

Linni said:


> Hmm, maybe I can understand it now...
> I should try to practise it, but I don't know where - I don't know any grammar book with exercising that would deal especially with DURCH and ÜBER....


Linni, I think you are worrying about a small matter here. If you become very fluent in German, I believe such matters will take care of themselves. Until that time, my suggestion would be to increase you understanding of German passively, picking up patterns when you read or listen to the language. I'm not suggesting that using the language actively is not important, merely that when you do so, your focus should probably be on more basic and more useful areas.

Gaer


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## flame

My thoughts:


Linni said:


> Hmm, maybe I can understand it now...
> I should try to practise it, but I don't know where - I don't know any grammar book with exercising that would deal especially with DURCH and ÜBER....


 
über ... is of more general nature
"Der Weg von Salzburg nach Innsbruck führt über Rosenheim"
So the road passes Rosenheim, but does not necessarily go through (the center of) Rosenheim - same like in "via"
"Wir trampen über Österreich nach Italien"
Here the location is very unspecific and the speaker doesn't know where he/she entered and left Austria (or wants to emphasize he/she doesn't pay attention to the exact locations)

durch ... means "into", then again "out of" much more specifically.
"Auf der Fahrt von Salzburg nach Bregenz fuhren wir durch Untersöchering"
So we entered this little Bavarian village, and then we left it again.
"Wir trampen durch Österreich nach Italien"
Here the speaker gives us the impression that at least he/she knows where he/she entered and left Austria, even if he/she doesn't tell us.

via ...
"Travelling to Iceland you must fly via Copenhagen which is a regional hub for the nordic countries"
You don't really touch Copenhagen here, and you wouldn't say you're passing "through Copenhagen", because the CPH airport is way out of town.


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