# Ilan - Tonic accent



## Yaella

Is the tonic accent in "Ilan" on the I or on the a ?
In other words, is the name Ilan transcribed in Spanish as Ilan or Ilán?


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## tFighterPilot

Like many names in Hebrew, the stress _should _be on the second Sybille, but is, in common speech, on the first.


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## anipo

tFighterPilot said:


> Like many names in Hebrew, the stress _should _be on the second Sybille syllable , but is, in common speech, on the first.



That is so.

On the other hand, when speaking about a tree (אילן = Ilán) everybody will rightly stress the second syllable.

BTW, the plural is אילנות, albeit it is a masculine noun. אילנות גבוהים = tall trees.


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## Yaella

In my memory of more than 30 years ago, most names indeed had the stress on the second syllable (Il*an*, Dot*an*, Ey*al*, Am*it*, Ron*en*...) and some did not (*E*rez, *Sha*h´ar).
Is there any evidence that there was an evolution in the pronounciation during the last generation?


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## anipo

If there is a change, I think it would rather be in the right direction, that is more people put the stress on the right syllable, according to the name. But you can still hear a lot of *I*lan, R*o*nen, etc.


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## arbelyoni

> In my memory of more than 30 years ago, most names indeed had the stress on the second syllable (Il*an*, Dot*an*, Ey*al*, Am*it*, Ron*en*...) and some did not (*E*rez, *Sha*h´ar).



It should be noted that the "proper" (original) accent of the names above is that of the words which the names come from: עמית, אייל, רונן are oxytones (מלרע) and ארז, שחר, נטע are paroxytones (מלעיל).
Paroxytonic pronunciation of originally oxytones is very common and makes the names less formal. It is still the same name, but with an alternative accent. For example: biblical Sarah is always sar*a*, but most modern Sarah's identify themselves as s*a*ra.

Oxytonic pronunciation of paroxytonic names, however, does not exist.



> If there is a change, I think it would rather be in the right direction, that is more people put the stress on the right syllable, according to the name. But you can still hear a lot of *I*lan, R*o*nen, etc.



I don't think there's any "change"; the same Ilan can be Il*a*n with his parents and *I*lan with his friends.


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## Albert Schlef

arbelyoni said:


> Paroxytonic pronunciation of originally oxytones is very common and makes the names less formal.



One reason to using Paroxytonic pronunciation (מלעיל) is to create a differentiation between the original meaning of the word and the person's name.

For example, when somebody's named Yaffa (יפה) we pronounce YAffa, not yafFA. yafFA means "beautiful".



anipo said:


> [...] more people [should] put the stress on the right syllable



Are you saying that YAffa (as a name) is incorrect and we should say yafFA instead?


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## Yaella

"One reason to using Paroxytonic pronunciation (מלעיל) is to create a differentiation between the original meaning of the word and the person's name" -->
First question (see #4): why would there be a need to differentiate now and not in the seventies?
Second question: is there a sociological or age difference between those using (מלעיל)  and those using (מלרע)  ? (see end of post #6)
I remember this little girl named Renana and her mother, a teacher, would insist on the oxytonic pronunciation.


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## arbelyoni

> One reason to using Paroxytonic pronunciation (מלעיל) is to create a differentiation between the original meaning of the word and the person's name.



Originally, Yaffa is supposed to be yaf*a*, only now y*a*fa is much more common and the original pronunciation does not exist as a name. Same goes for Chayim.
There are some names that their paroxytonic pronunciation is more  common than the "correct" one, but both forms are still used. Most Yonantans I know identify  themselves as y*o*natan rather than yonat*a*n. The latter is perceived as too formal, almost like a rebuke.

The other names we listed (אייל, רונן, עמית) are first and foremost oxytinic. They can also be paroxytonic in certain environments, but only as alternative "lower" (less formal) versions of the original.



> why would there be a need to differentiate now and not in the seventies?



I don't think there's any difference between now and the 70's...



> is there a sociological or age difference between those using (מלעיל) and those using (מלרע)



It depends on the specific name, but as a rule I would say no.


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## iyavor

Hi- my name is Ilan!! I can tell you that the proper way to say it in any case, in my view, is I- LAN and not I lan. 
For example, when we sing the song "Yerushalayim Shel Zahav", in one of the stanzas, you have the verse:

"Uvetardemat Ilan VaEven (And in the slumber of the tree and the rock..)"... Everyone would pronounce it "I-LAN" (oxytonically). 

I also feel that very often people will pronounce the name as I lan (paroxytonically). Until I came back to Israel, everyone called me I-LAN, but for ten years everyone's called me I- lan, so I just tell people now that my name is I-lan.  Using the oxytonic, for whatever reason, indicates that you feel close to the person, to the point that every two-syllable name I know is now pronounced oxytonically...


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## tFighterPilot

Every name might be pronounce in Mil'el by some people, but in some names it's more commons than others. I think that names which weren't popular until modern times are less likely to be pronounced in Mil'el (unless that's their correct pronunciation) than names which were always used by Jews. By name is Asaf, which although biblical was not common among Jews anywhere in the world. I very rarely find people who pronounce it in Mil'el. Common Jewish names like Moshe, Chaim, Yitshaq and Yossef (which is always changed to Yossi) will almost exclusively be pronounced in Mil'el.


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## iyavor

I've heard of "Asaf" in the Mil'eil, I think it was teenagers or soldiers who said it.


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## arbelyoni

> I think that names which weren't popular until modern times are less  likely to be pronounced in Mil'el (unless that's their correct  pronunciation) than names which were always used by Jews.



I think that the distinction should be made between names that were common in Ashkenazi communities and modern names that are common in modern Israel.
The traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation is paroxytonic (Mil'el), so Hebrew names that were common in Ashkenazi communities in Europe took the Ashkenazi stress. This pronunciation of Hebrew names became dominant in Israel since the early Aliyot to this very day.

Modern Hebrew is generally oxytonic (Milra) after the Sephardi pronunciation, so most names that were brought to use in Israel and were not common in Ashkenazi communities are naturally oxytonic.


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## Aoyama

It is difficult for me to imagine pronouncing Ilan with the stress on the first syllable. "Ilán" seems more natural and would probably be _​more natural in any language, instinctively..._


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## Carrot Ironfoundersson

> "Ilán" seems more natural and would probably be _​more natural in any language, instinctively..._



Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe that's because in *French *the stress is *always *on the last syllable... For example, as a Russian speaker I wouldn't know where to put it.


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## Aoyama

Well, could (very well) be ...


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