# Sobborgo



## Einstein

One of my questions about Italian TV translations:

The Latin word "urbs" is singular and means city. In Britain we say "suburbs", i.e. sub-city, to mean the outer part of a town. The TV translation is often "sobborghi", but isn't "periferia" more normal?
In the USA they make a singular form of "suburbs" and say "suburb" for a part of a city. Again the TV translation is "sobborgo", but isn't "quartiere" more normal?


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## cas29

I live in Northern Italy, and I hear periferia - perhaps because Milan hasn't got walls around it any more (though you can see fragments of the old Spanish walls in some places).

I wonder if sobborgo is used in places where the walls of the city were around longer/still exist?

A quartiere is an area inside a town - so I agree with you, it shouldn't be sobborgo.


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## Paulfromitaly

Good one..
I'd say that suburbs (outskirts) can be translated as _sobborghi_ o _periferia_ whereas I'd choose _quartiere_ for suburb (neighbourhood).


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## Einstein

So _sobborghi _is acceptable for periferia. OK, thanks.


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## Nicholas the Italian

Einstein said:


> So _sobborghi _is acceptable for periferia. OK, thanks.


Yes, but you're right, it's not very common.
Personally I'd never say "Vivo nel sobborgo della mia citta'" or similar... I don't know, it sounds so XX century / countryside to me.


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## SvenKr

Yes, _sobborghi_ is pretty old and does even sound somewhat negative to me. I would never use it now to indicate what I call _periferia_.


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## Einstein

This confirms my suspicions. The tendency in bad translations is to use the word similar to the English. It may not be completely wrong, but is often not the most natural translation. I've already raised the question of "sono spiacente" instead of the more normal "mi dispiace".


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## ILMarx

I agree with SvenKr's negative feeling.

Try this interpretation:
"Centro -> Periferia" as a horizontal (plain?) distinction
"Quartieri -> Sobborghi" as a vertical distinction (not only in terms of physical height, but also in terms of social height)


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## elfa

Ciao a tutti 

I have a question about the translation of "sobborgo". I'm translating a novel in which the writer, a young girl who lives in Rome, is staying in Paris. The paragraph in which it appears is the opening of the book:

"Parigi non è stata una disillusione per me. Me la figuravo proprio così: un grosso sobborgo disordinato e rumoroso, pieno di provinciali forse ricchi, forse milionari e anche miliardari; ma pur sempre provinciali."

which I have translated as

_Paris has not disappointed me. It is just as I imagined: a large, sprawling, noisy suburb, full of provincial people who might be rich, millionaires perhaps, multimillionaires even, but who are nonetheless provincial._

But "suburb" just doesn't make sense in this context. Does anyone know of a different meaning for "sobborgo"? The book is set in 1912 and, according to Wiki, Paris had a population then of between 2 and 4 million, depending on whether or not you include the outer urban area - so you wouldn't really describe this as a "suburb". Also, the girl is around 15 so it's possible she is being a) snobby here, given her comments in the rest of the sentence or b) ignorant. To me, though, the insertion of "suburb" here is nonsensical. I have thought of "residential area" as an alternative, but to me this doesn't have exactly the same nuance, which is that, in English, a suburb is an outlying district of a bigger urban centre.

Thoughts, anyone?


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## Paulfromitaly

If taken literally, it doesn't make much sense in Italian either.
We'd never call a very important city like Paris "sobborgo", unless we wanted to belittle it.
In this specific context, I'd say "village".


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## You little ripper!

‘Town’ might also work as a diminishing word that’s not as strong as ‘village‘.


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## alfaalfa

Paulfromitaly said:


> We'd never call a very important city like Paris "sobborgo", unless we wanted to belittle it.
> In this specific context, I'd say "village".


Maybe,  a century ago, a 15 y.o. girl form Rome would say it. "T_ze! Parigi! Mica è una Città (mica è Roma). Solo un grosso sobborgo..._"


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## elfa

Thank you all. I take your point about the word being diminishing. I'm not sure about using "village" though - that seems a bit of a stretch from the original.


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## You little ripper!

elfa said:


> Thank you all. I take your point about the word being diminishing. I'm not sure about using "village" though - that seems a bit of a stretch from the original.


That’s why I suggested ‘town’. It’s less of a stretch.


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## merse0

Elfa, when reading your post I thought: I'm going to suggest "village" which then Paul has done.

At the beginning, may I suggest the use of disenchantment instead of disappointment?
_Paris has not disenchanted me. ..._


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## King Crimson

As to the difference between "periferia" and "sobborgo": to me the former is almost a seamless, featureless entity - if you say that you live "in periferia" this may mean any point in the outer part of a town; a "sobborgo", on the other hand, may be part of the "periferia", but it has an historical ring to it (see also post #5) because it usually originates from what was once a small village that has been swallowed up by the urban sprawl (in fact, many "sobborghi" on the outskirts of Milan still keep their historical names, something that would not be applicable to a modern "periferia").


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## elfa

merse0 said:


> Elfa, when reading your post I thought: I'm going to suggest "village" which then Paul has done.
> 
> At the beginning, may I suggest the use of disenchantment instead of disappointment?
> _Paris has not disenchanted me. ..._


I can see I'm being outvoted here... 
You may suggest "disenchanted", merse0, but I'm afraid it sounds less natural.



King Crimson said:


> As to the difference between "periferia" and "sobborgo": to me the former is almost a seamless, featureless entity - if you say that you live "in periferia" this may mean any point in the outer part of a town; a "sobborgo", on the other hand, may be part of the "periferia", but it has an historical ring to it (see also post #5) because it usually originates from what was once a small village that has been swallowed up by the urban sprawl (in fact, many "sobborghi" on the outskirts of Milan still keep their historical names, something that would not be applicable to a modern "periferia").


Good to know. Thank you, KC.


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## giginho

As far as I can get from what was written, none has pointed out the difference I feel between sobborgo and periferia.

Sobborgo is a small village very close to the city but has its own town hall, its major and so on, while a periferia is a "quartiere" inside the same city.

For example: 
"Borgaro è un sobborgo di Torino, mentre Falchera è alla periferia di Torino". 
"le periferie torinesi come Falchera, Mirafiori, Barriera di Milano sono luoghi pericolosi in cui vivere"


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## Mary49

giginho said:


> Sobborgo is a small village very close to the city but has its own town hall, its major and so on, while a periferia is a "quartiere" inside the same city.
> For example:
> "Borgaro è un sobborgo di Torino, mentre Falchera è alla periferia di Torino".
> "le periferie torinesi come Falchera, Mirafiori, Barriera di Milano sono luoghi pericolosi in cui vivere"


I cannot agree, a "sobborgo" hasn't always its town hall, mayor and so on. 
Sobborgo > significato - Dizionario italiano De Mauro    "1. piccolo centro abitato che sorge nelle immediate vicinanze di una città, *gener. privo di autonomia amministrativa*     2. quartiere della periferia suburbana".   
For example, Noventa Padovana is very close to Padua, has its own mayor and town hall, is part of the metropolitan area of Padua, just the same as Borgaro (metropolitan area of Turin), but it cannot be called "sobborgo". It is a "comune".


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## elfa

giginho said:


> As far as I can get from what was written, none has pointed out the difference I feel between sobborgo and periferia.
> 
> Sobborgo is a small village very close to the city but has its own town hall, its major and so on, while a periferia is a "quartiere" inside the same city.
> 
> For example:
> "Borgaro è un sobborgo di Torino, mentre Falchera è alla periferia di Torino".
> "le periferie torinesi come Falchera, Mirafiori, Barriera di Milano sono luoghi pericolosi in cui vivere"


I'm not sure that's relevant here, giginho, as it's clear the author (the young girl) is talking about Paris as the entire city, not just a part of it. She goes on to say

_No ho mai desiderato di vedere Parigi. Ho invece sempre desiderato di vedere Siena...Non ho mai pensato: - Una volta vorrei passare da Parigi - ed eccomi qua._

She seems to be using it figuratively rather than as an accurate geographical description.


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## Paulfromitaly

elfa said:


> She seems to be use it figuratively rather than as an accurate geographical description.


Absolutely, so the accurate meaning in Italian is irrelevant.


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## theartichoke

_It is just as I imagined: a large, sprawling, noisy suburb, full of provincial people who might be rich, millionaires perhaps, multimillionaires even, but who are nonetheless provincial._

You're clearly right about the speaker's snobbery, given the second part of the sentence, so maybe the first bit of your translation could use "sprawl" as a noun to be dismissive about Paris? _It is just as I imagined: a noisy / loud, untidy sprawl [of a town], full of....._


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## elfa

theartichoke said:


> You're clearly right about the speaker's snobbery, given the second part of the sentence, so maybe the first bit of your translation could use "sprawl" as a noun to be dismissive about Paris? _It is just as I imagined: a noisy / loud, untidy sprawl [of a town], full of....._


I could, and thereby avoid the "suburb" problem altogether. Thanks for that - I'll think on it.


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## curiosone

Interesting discussion.  In Romagna (and in Tuscany and Umbria) I hear 'borgo' or 'borgata' more frequently than 'sobborgo.'  Regarding Elfa's question, I'd like to draw a simile to my own hometown (actually a city/metropolis), which is described as "a very large small town" because you're always discovering the coincidence of having friends in common (and always running into them).  So if we're choosing between describing Paris as a 'village' or a 'town' I vote for 'large town.'


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## metazoan

elfa said:


> a large, sprawling, noisy suburb


I've used a similar phrase to describe Indianapolis.


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## elfa

Thanks everybody, that's been enormously useful. I'm reluctant to use "village", and even "town", as the words in English depart quite a bit from the concept of "suburb", but I may have to. Yet again, one's faced with a less than clear original text which, when translating, one feels one has to rescue somewhat...


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## You little ripper!

On rereading the text, I think the word is used deliberately. She is diminishing the city by calling it a ‘suburb’. In her mind it is like a suburb of what she considers a ‘real’ city, like Rome, where she happens to be from. A suburb that happens to have a lot of provincial types who are also rich.


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## Odysseus54

How about "..an oversized small town"?


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## elfa

You little ripper! said:


> On rereading the text, I think the word is used deliberately. She is diminishing the city by calling it a ‘suburb’. In her mind it is like a suburb of what she considers a ‘real’ city, like Rome, where she happens to be from. A suburb that happens to have a lot of provincial types who are also rich.


Yes, I agree. 



Odysseus54 said:


> How about "..an oversized small town"?


Thanks. I'm not sure "oversized" would work in the context of the book, which was published in the 1930s and based on a diary written in 1912.


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## Odysseus54

elfa said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> 
> Thanks. I'm not sure "oversized" would work in the context of the book, which was published in the 1930s and based on a diary written in 1912.



I'm curious - what does the year the work was written or published have to do with the choice of the word 'oversized'?  Not trying to push it on you, intendiamoci.


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## elfa

Odysseus54 said:


> I'm curious - what does the year the work was written or published have to do with the choice of the word 'oversized'?  Not trying to push it on you, intendiamoci.


Insisti pure!   The language of the book is very much of its time. The adjective "oversized" in English, particularly when applied to "small town" and which I generally think of as a factual word often applied to modern concepts, as in "She wore a pair of baggy jeans and an oversized T-shirt" and "Many children are being taught in oversized classrooms", wouldn't in my view fit with the lexicon of it. I hope that makes sense.


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## Odysseus54

I can't argue that.  Way above my pay grade.  My real doubt, on second thought, is that the Italian concept of 'provincia' is generally negative.  Provincials have no taste and small ambitions, the city makes you free etc.  Whereas, at least in AE and as a reflection of American values, 'small town' is a place of honesty, hard work and sincerity.  Lake Wobegon.  So, an "oversized small town" would most likely be understood as  town that grew to become a city in size, without losing its modesty.  Back to square one.


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## pebblespebbles

I agree with you Elfa that the girl is snobby here. Paris was the world capital of arts at that date and the international language it was still french, not English, I believe. She talks about Paris like one could have talked about Siena Instead, which was (and still is compared to Rome and Paris) more likely a “big town” (I agree with Paul About the good value of “towns”as perceived in Italian ) rather than a city.


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## elfa

Odysseus54 said:


> I can't argue that.  Way above my pay grade.  My real doubt, on second thought, is that the Italian concept of 'provincia' is generally negative.  Provincials have no taste and small ambitions, the city makes you free etc.


It's the same in BE, Ody. To be described as 'provincial' is meant as a slight and implies that you come from a backwater. In fact, "provincial" and "backwater" often get put together in a phrase, as in "Quebec remained a provincial backwater until the 1960s." (Canadians out there, don't shoot the messenger! )

Unless I can think of something better, I think "village" may be the best option after all.


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## london calling

alfaalfa said:


> Maybe,  a century ago, a 15 y.o. girl form Rome would say it. "T_ze! Parigi! Mica è una Città (mica è Roma). Solo un grosso sobborgo..._"


Mmmm yes, I was thinking along the same lines. I've heard provincial towns described as 'paesoni' (meaning provincial, bla bla...).

That said, I tend to agree with Ody. I'd say 'provincial' too, as that certainly appears to be what this little girl thought of Paris (already a snob at the age of five?).

Edit. You could always cheat and use the French word 'banlieu'.


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## elfa

london calling said:


> That said, I tend to agree with Ody. I'd say 'provincial' too, as that certainly appears to be what this little girl thought of Paris (already a snob at the age of five?).


She's fifteen actually.    But very privileged, naive and lacking in life experience.


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## london calling

elfa said:


> She's fifteen actually.    But very privileged, naive and lacking in life experience.


Even so... Did you see my edit?

Mind you, as a 15 year-old living in London I also looked own on 'the provincials'. Fortunately I matured...


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## elfa

london calling said:


> Even so... Did you see my edit?
> 
> Mind you, as a 15 year-old living in London I also looked own on 'the provincials'. Fortunately I matured...


No I didn't! Nice idea, but I'm not sure potential readers would understand "banlieu" - I confess I had to look it up myself! 

Well, the author did as well, I believe...eventually.


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## london calling

I thought it was pretty well-known these days, what with all the riots in the_ banlieues_ of Paris.

The Guardian.

*'Nothing's changed': 10 years after French riots, banlieues remain in crisis*


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## elfa

london calling said:


> I thought it was pretty well-known these days, what with all the riots in the_ banlieues_ of Paris.
> 
> The Guardian.
> 
> *'Nothing's changed': 10 years after French riots, banlieues remain in crisis*


You could be right, but this is a book taken essentially from a diary written in 1913 and I'm not sure the register would be right here. 
Also, it's essential to convey the snobbishness in the translation. Again, I'm uncertain whether "banlieu" would do that, would it?


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## london calling

Maybe not, as it may have taken on a different connotation  to English speakers who use it these days, although well-educated people of the time often spoke French.

In any case, she obviously found Paris provincial.


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## Pietruzzo

La butto lì: "It was like a huge, messy, noisy suburban area"


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## elfa

Pietruzzo said:


> La butto lì: "It was like a huge, messy, noisy suburban area"


Thanks, Pietruzzo. To me, 'messy' could easily convey the idea that people had left rubbish everywhere.


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