# upwards and sideways



## philchinamusical

Hi, all,

I am translating the Andrew Lloyd Webber's autobiography: Umasked. He's the composer of musicals including _the Phantom of the Opera, Cats, Evita, Jesus Christ Superstar, _and most recently, _the School of Rock*.
*_
In one chapter talking about the production of _Cats _back in the 1980's, there is such a paragraph:


> Adapting a famous Eliot poem like “Rhapsody on a Windy Night” was going to be highly sensitive with Valerie. The work would have to be done by a name she respected. Trevor had said he could no longer “fiddle around with Eliot.” Cameron and I had talked *upwards and sideways* around the problem that afternoon and both concluded the same thing. It was worth asking Tim Rice if he would have a go. Trevor thought for an unusually long while, even by his standards. Eventually he said he wanted a chance to adapt the poem himself.



The context is a little bit complicated: Trevor (Nunn) was the director of the show and he agreed to adapt the original poems of T.S. Eliot by himself, when he first accepted the job. And that's why Valerie(T.S. Eliot's wife) agreed to let Andrew Lloyd Webber to produce a musical based on those poems. But just before they started rehearsal, Trevor told Cameron(the producer) and the author that he didn't think he could "fiddle around with Eliot" any more and asked for someone else to do the job instead. Then Cameron and Andrew Lloyd Webber had a meeting with Trevor about the situation, because if Trevor backs off, Valerie may withdraw her permission.

The question is about the bold words: *upwards and sideways*. I think it may not be a simple combination of two words. Maybe a slang referring to some specific meanings. But I tried googling it but can't find any meaningful reference. 

So could you please help me with the translation?

Thank you!


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## thisisvi

我没有从这一段中看到特别特殊的含义……
Do you think "翻来覆去地讨论了这个问题" is appropriate?


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## philchinamusical

@thisisvi 谢谢！也许是这个意思，但是韦伯的文笔相对来说，有一种尖酸刻薄的感觉，而且为了Trevor突然提出自己做不了这件事情，这一章里也是大书特书，所以担心这里其实是有感情色菜的讲述。
——也许我想多了。


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## SimonTsai

> Adapting a famous Eliot poem like 'Rhapsody on a Windy Night' was going to be highly sensitive with Valerie.


改寫 Eliot 的詩作<大風夜裡的狂想曲>，對 Valerie 而言，非同小可。


> The work would have to be done by a name she respected.


這工作必須交由她所敬重的人，可


> Trevor had said he could no longer 'fiddle around with Eliot'.


Trevor 表示：他已經受够了 Eliot；每每工作和 Eliot 扯上邊，他就得小心再小心，像碰觸纖細的琴弦，深怕將它破壞。


> Cameron and I had talked *upwards and sideways* around the problem that afternoon


Cameron 和我那天下午就這個問題，討論了*各種可能*，


> and both concluded the same thing.


最後都同意：


> It was worth asking Tim Rice if he would have a go.


也許可以問 Tim Rice 是否願意試試。


> Trevor [Tim Rice] thought for an unusually long while, even by his standards.


Trevor [Tim Rice] 想了特別久，


> Eventually he said he wanted a chance to adapt the poem himself.


最後說：他希望有機會親自將這詩改寫。

I leave 'even by his standards' untranslated because I am not sure of the meaning, in this particular context.


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## philchinamusical

@SimonTsai 谢谢这么仔细详细地帮我每句都翻译出来...我唯一担心的就是那个upwards and sideways啦。

Just to make sure you get the whole story：想了特别久的是Trevor，Cameron和Andrew当时只是提议说可以联系Tim Rice，也是Andrew的老搭档来试试看，其实按照Andrew在回忆录里说的，他们是为了激将Trevor。所以我会担心这个词组有字面以外的意思。


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## SimonTsai

Thank you, @philchinamusical, for making the story clear. It is far from intuitive to understand why it was Trevor without additional context.


philchinamusical said:


> I think it may not be a simple combination of two words. Maybe a slang referring to some specific meanings.


As for the phrase that is concerned, honestly, I am not sure what it does mean; perhaps you could ask English natives.


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## retrogradedwithwind

外国掌故啊，老先生讲古的好材料。

我个人感觉，这里的upwards sand sideways ，是突出他们讨论这个问题时，"随心所欲乱七八糟"的状态。讨论时漫无边际，想起啥说啥，说是讨论问题其实就是侃大山吹牛逼，瞎几把扯淡。

翻译的话，
就这个问题那个下午卡梅伦和我乱七八糟地讨论了一番，我们都觉得，值得去问一下Tim Rice 愿不愿意接手一试。


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## philchinamusical

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 我个人感觉，这里的upwards sand sideways ，是突出他们讨论这个问题时，"随心所欲乱七八糟"的状态。讨论时漫无边际，想起啥说啥，说是讨论问题其实就是侃大山吹牛逼，瞎几把扯淡。


于我心有戚戚焉...


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## Skatinginbc

This is a hard one.  Intuitively, it seems to be saying that Cameron and I (Andrew) had discussed _every which way _to solve the problem.

Every which way = in all directions, including "_upwards_" and "_sideways_".


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## brofeelgood

When you encounter an obstacle (problem), you could get past it either by going over it (upwards) or around it (sideways).

Cameron and Andrew were analysing the problem from numerous angles and discussing options to overcome it.
用不同的視角分析問題 + 探討解決方案


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## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> to overcome it.


I think so, too. The "_around_" in "_talking upwards and sideways around the problem_" seems to mean the same as the one in "_getting around the rule_".  Trevor's "rule" (or decision of not wanting to do it) was their "obstacle" (problem).  Cameron and Andrew tried to get _around_ it, that is, to make Trevor do it without directly confronting his decision.  And their solution was 激将.

I think "upwards", as well as "sideways", modifies "talk", not "around". What is "_upwards around_ the problem" anyway?  "Climbing _upwards around _the mountain" seems to be spiraling towards the mountain top, rather than climbing over it. So, my analysis is "talking upwards and sideways" + "around the problem".


brofeelgood said:


> Cameron and Andrew were analysing the problem from numerous angles and discussing options to overcome it. 用不同的視角分析問題 + 探討解決方案


Agree.  Intuitively that is indeed the case, but I'm really having a hard time making sense of its parts:
(1) If "_upwards and sideways_" means "_from numerous angles_", then "_around_" does not seem to be the one in "getting _around_ something" or "talking _around_ something".  The former (as in "taking photos from every angle _around _the object") means "surrounding, on all sides of', whereas the latter means "so as to avoid, bypass, or pass in a curved route".
(2) If the structure is "talking upwards and sideways + around the problem", I can't help but think of "talking upwards" (or "upward talking"--talking to someone above you) and "talking sideways" (or "sideways talking"--talking about someone who is not directly in front of you).  Both of them pertain to "_in_ which direction", not "_from_ which direction". (Then again, one may argue that "talking sideways" could mean "talking from the side of one's mouth", but how about "talking upwards"?  Nay!)


brofeelgood said:


> When you encounter an obstacle (problem), you could get past it either by going over it (upwards) or around it (sideways).


Going sideways around an obstacle makes sense, but going upwards around it does not.  It just goes to the top of the problem, not over it.

Don't get me wrong.  I totally agree with what Bro has said.  I just can't break down the sentence and make sense of its parts.


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## retrogradedwithwind

skating 好认真。。。。

我英语果然不行，every which way 我见了大概能猜出来意思，但真的不会主动用。这大概甚至都不是我的被动词汇。

就我看来，考虑到作者文风，用词造句相对随意，没有长难句，近于口语，我觉得不必考虑太细。具体来说，在这样近乎说话的文章里作者不会"字斟句酌"，出现一些轻微的算不上错误的错误，比如轻度的搭配不当，很正常的。

认真考虑问题的各种可能，和胡说八道，差不多就是态度严肃与否的区别了。我觉得作者没那么认真。


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## philchinamusical

谢谢各位的真知灼见！在下非常受用！


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 我觉得作者没那么认真


希望如此，不过这本书翻译到现在，我真的不太敢这么想了...


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## retrogradedwithwind

当时的那个下午，作者有没有这么认真嘛


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> every which way 我见了大概能猜出来意思，但真的不会主动用。这大概甚至都不是我的被动词汇。


In American English, "_every which way_" could mean (1) in all directions (e.g., _I looked every which way for you_), or (2) from all sides (e.g., _stones coming at me every which way_).  Intuitively, "_talking upwards and sideways_" seems to mean "talking _from numerous angles_ (from all sides)" but its components (i.e., talking upwards, talking sideways) suggest "in all directions".  "_Every which way_" is able to accommodate this ambiguity.


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## brofeelgood

retrogradedwithwind said:


> skating 好认真。。。。


是啊, 太吓人了. 我就随便写了一句... 

所以我常对自己说, 要是少了这家伙, 这论坛就少了几分精彩, 就不好玩了.


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## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> 我就随便写了一句...


你随便一句就能刻骨铭心, 我則是東拉西扯, 鬧得 "轰轰烈烈" (刚从这个帖子过来).


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