# Torlakian: besi o onu krivu dafinu!



## Freier Fall

In the film Zona Zamfirova there is a passage, when some aunts tell her  sister Tašana, that she will go through a lot of trouble, because her  daughter Zona became such a beautiful girl. I think I understand 



The passage in the 2002 film (YouTube) I can't understand completely. It sounds like: "Црна Ташано! [...] ону криву дафин[...]" 
In the book (Stevan Sremac: "Зона Замфирова", 1907; chapter  6, page 51) the passage is: "Црна Ташано! Иди си па се беси о ону криву  дафину!... " 

In Bulgarian _дaфина_ in vulgar use means _laurel tree_(Hilmer & Walter 1990, "Wörterbuch Bulgarisch-Deutsch", VEB Leipzig, S. 125).I don't know, if or what botanic meaning _крива дафина_ has, but later in the 2002 film (YouTube)  Tašana says, her sister has been right accroding to the trouble with  Zona's beauty. And she says, she sould have done, what her sister told  her, and shows (to a tree?) in front of her and says:



На ону дафину! 

When I understand it right, Tašana means to hang herself ("се беси" related to _обесити се or to вешати_?) at the _dafina _tree.

My question is:



Do I understand it right, that because  of the beauty of Tašana's daughter Zona, Zona's aunt told the (the  "black" or unlucky) Tašana to go and to hang herself at the next dafina  tree? 
If (1.) so, does this means to express the aunt's amazement  because of the beauty of her nephew Zona and is formed as a warning,  that beauty of girls cause lots of trouble for their parents (here  mothers). 
If (1. and 2. is so), how to translate into English? Is this a common and/or still existing phrase in Serbian/Bulgarian? 
Is it important that the tree is an _дaфина_. Or does it mena just the next tree, standing there? 
What is the botanical meaning of _дaфина_. Which plant is meant. Is it really _laurel tree_ (German: "Echter Lorbeer") or a "false" laurel and then which one? 
Can someone transcribe the full sentence, mentioned as "Црна Ташано! [...] ону криву дафин[...]" above?


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## DarkChild

You got the meaning right. It means go kill yourself because your daughter's beauty will bring a lot of (boy) troubles. 

Now, in Bulgarian the tree is called дафин/дафиново дърво. I don't know where you found дафиДа. I don't think in Serbian it's with a Д, either. In Bulgaria дафинов лист is a popular spice.

I haven't heard that phrase before but those kind of movies reflect specific dialects and villages where they use their own slang. But I have heard similar expressions about a child who may cause big headaches for his or her parents on the romantic front when grown up.


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## Freier Fall

DarkChild said:


> Now, in Bulgarian the tree is called дафин/дафиново дърво. I don't know where you found дафиДа. I don't think in Serbian it's with a Д, either. In Bulgaria дафинов лист is a popular spice.


 I found it only on my keyboard, right between the first and second row - I mean, I typed it wrong with a big finger, and being too lazy to switch the language each team I needed to type it again, I multiplied the wrong typing by copy & paste. What I found in Hilmer & Walter 1990 was indeed: _дaфина_. When I understand you right, _дaфина _really means the plant _Laurus nobilis_ L. But what is "крива  дафина"?



> I haven't heard that phrase before but those kind of movies reflect  specific dialects and villages where they use their own slang. But I  have heard similar expressions about a child who may cause big headaches  for his or her parents on the romantic front when grown up.


This would fit, since the book is from 1907 and is written in Torlakian. 

Maybe in some hundred years someone will post hier a request to find out, if the English phrase "on the romantic front", documented for 2015, still exists then in English population and what the heck it might mean...


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## malinar

She says: "Crna Tašano, u onu krivu dafinu da se obesiš." 



> "се беси" related to _обесити се or to вешати_?


When a person is getting hanged or hanging himself, you usually use the verb"besiti", so you would say 
_Obesio se.  
Obesili su ga.  _(although here you can perhaps say: _Vešali su ga_, as well)

BUT the noun "hanging" is translated as "vešanje". So, death by hanging =_ smrt vešanjem_.
Don't quote me, but the verb "vešati" has a more "official" connotation than "besiti". 


DarkChild got the meaning right. Whether _hanging yourself from a crooked dafina tree_ had any symbolic content in those days, I cannot say. I've never heard it outside of the movie.


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## Freier Fall

malinar said:


> She says: "Crna Tašano, u onu krivu dafinu da se obesiš."


Thanks a lot. I don't know how you could understand this "да се обесиш", but it fits perfect. 



> When a person is getting hanged or hanging himself, you usually use the verb"besiti", so you would say [...]


Thanks, too.



> _crooked dafina tree_


Does this "_crooked" _mean "false" (in botanical sense: not the "real" Dafina species) or is it meant in morphological sense (like "curved" or so)? I'm asking that, because I'd like to know, whether I can interprete the biological species, genus or at least family of that tree.


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## malinar

Freier Fall said:


> Thanks a lot. I don't know *how you could understand this "да се обесиш"*, but it fits perfect.


What do you mean, cannot understand??



> Does this "_crooked" _mean "false" (in botanical sense: not the "real" Dafina species) or is it meant in morphological sense (like "curved" or so)? I'm asking that, because I'd like to know, whether I can interprete the biological species, genus or at least family of that tree.


Actually, let me correct myself. I often hear in Serbian "hang oneself from a crooked tree", just not a dafina tree (until now). Most likely dafina is there for no particular reason. 
No, there is no kriva dafina species or anything of that sort.


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## Freier Fall

malinar said:


> What do you mean, cannot understand??


I don't understand it acoustically plus I don't speak Serbian. I just needed that help.



> Actually, let me correct myself. I often hear in Serbian "hang oneself from a crooked tree",[...]


This is news. I didn't know there is such a phrase existing in Serbia. And even with "a crooked tree".



> just not a dafina tree (until now). Most likely dafina is there for no particular reason.
> No, there is no kriva dafina species or anything of that sort.


Thanks for clearing that. I asked, because German Wikpedia calles _Laurus nobilis _in German "Echter Lorbeer" (true laurel) and states, that there are many species existing which are called "Lorbeer", too, in German, without even being closely related to the genus _Laurel_, such as _Cinnamomum tamala_, _Pimenta racemosa_, _Syzygium polyanthum_, _Umbellularia californica_, _Litsea glaucescens_), however most of them used only in their home areas in India, Indonesia, Northamerica etc. There are also some species in Europe existing, which sometimes are called in German "Unechter Lorbeer" (false laurel), such as _Prunus laurocerasus_ (= _Laurocerasus officinalis_) and _Viburnum tinus_, both usually growing as bushes or small trees. In Northern Europe _Laurus nobilis_ also usally grows as bush, in wind-protected places also as tree, sometimes with several trunks. In the North you easily can find better trees to hang yourself.

But you might be right, that in the Mediterrean area (of 19.th century) as main area of cultivation and usage of _Laurus nobilis _there is no reason to think about a "false laurel".

By the way the German Wikipedia mentions, that some South Eastern European and Middle East languages (such as Hebrew, Turkish, Albanian, Bulgarian, Romanian) adapted the Greek name, coming from the mythological _daphne _(_δάφνη_), instead of the Latin one for _Laurus nobilis_. Actually in case of of Bulgaria this is only half true, since the main lexical use for the name of the tree _лавър_ (eurodict.org) or _лаврово дърво_ (cf. PONS, Arnaudov et al. 1984) follows the latin term, and the name for the spice and leaf  _дафинов лист_ (as mentioned here by DarkChild, cf. PONS, eurodict.org)_,_ for the leaves _дафинови листи _(Endler & Walter 1990), and for the popular name of the tree _дафина _ (Endler & Walter 1990) or _дафиново дърво_ (Arnaudov et al. 1984) follow the Greek term.


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## malinar

Interesting. Indeed, Greek, Albanian, Turkish and Romanian names for laurus nobilis are daphne, dafina, defne and dafin.

However, searching for dafina in Serbian Google gives me various trees from the genus Elaeagnus, usually _Elaeagnus angustifolia_, which is far from laurel, both taxonomically and simply by physical appearance.


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## Freier Fall

malinar said:


> However, searching for dafina in Serbian Google gives me various trees from the genus Elaeagnus, usually _Elaeagnus angustifolia_, which is far from laurel, both taxonomically and simply by physical appearance.



Again a shrub or small tree, even often thorny. Probably you were right and they really mean a laurel tree, just a warped one, so one can hang himself best. At Glosbe.com I found a Macedonian translation of this passage from the film yet - including an English translation: 

MK: "Да обесиш се во онаа крива Дафина!" > EN: "Hang yourself!" 
Interesting, because the translator used capitalisation for "Дафина" (as a proper noun), but set "крива" completely in lower case letters (as an adjective). In the English translation they just let the tree away. In another Serbian with English translation I found:

SR: "Црна Ташано, обеси се на ону криву врбу." > EN: "Woe to you Tashana, hang yourself from that willow." 
Even though in German (Wikipedia) _Elaeagnus angustifolia _seems to be called "Ölweide" (literally in English: "Oil Willow"), too, I don't see concrete reasons any more to doubt, they meant _Laurus nobilis_ in the film (2002) and book (1907) indeed.


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## Sobakus

I'd just like to add that *_obesiti_ (I know there's no infinitive) comes from *_ob-vѣsiti_, the non-frequentative pair to *_vѣšati_, and not from *_bѣsiti_.


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## Freier Fall

Sobakus said:


> I'd just like to add that *_obesiti_ (I know there's no infinitive) comes from *_ob-vѣsiti_, the non-frequentative pair to *_vѣšati_, and not from *_bѣsiti_.


Thanks for this etymological note. My (however very small and insufficient) Serbian dictionary also refers for "обесити" to "вешати". But this is all far beyond my limits, since I don't speak the language.

I'm even already unable to cope with the Serbian transcription (I still can't hear out her pronouncing the phoneme "b" in "obesiš"). I just can hear, that in the film sequence she uses the 2nd pers. sing. (indicative) instead of 2nd pers. sing. (imperative), contrary to her use in the book.


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## hurma

malinar said:


> Interesting. Indeed, Greek, Albanian, Turkish and Romanian names for laurus nobilis are daphne, dafina, defne and dafin.
> 
> However, searching for dafina in Serbian Google gives me various trees from the genus Elaeagnus, usually _Elaeagnus angustifolia_, which is far from laurel, both taxonomically and simply by physical appearance.



It's true that in Albanian the word is Dafina ( a very common first name too just like one of my aunts ) but in Shkodër they use the word Lari.


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## dumdum1

Freier Fall said:


> "Црна Ташано! Иди си па се беси о ону криву дафину!... "
> 
> My question is:
> 
> 
> 
> Do I understand it right, that because  of the beauty of Tašana's daughter Zona, Zona's aunt told the (the  "black" or unlucky) Tašana to go and to hang herself at the next dafina  tree?
> If (1.) so, does this means to express the aunt's amazement  because of the beauty of her nephew Zona and is formed as a warning,  that beauty of girls cause lots of trouble for their parents (here  mothers).
> If (1. and 2. is so), how to translate into English? Is this a common and/or still existing phrase in Serbian/Bulgarian?
> Is it important that the tree is an _дaфина_. Or does it mena just the next tree, standing there?
> What is the botanical meaning of _дaфина_. Which plant is meant. Is it really _laurel tree_ (German: "Echter Lorbeer") or a "false" laurel and then which one?
> Can someone transcribe the full sentence, mentioned as "Црна Ташано! [...] ону криву дафин[...]" above?


Aunt "Taska" wants to give a lesson to her nephew "Zona", so she tells his sister "Tasana" that if her daughter "Zona" look at the men indiscriminately ("as some girls are doing these days", it's a start of XX century, it's the period of some kind of social liberalization), she (her mother "Tasana") will eventually have to "hang herself because of shame". Aunt "Taska" talks to "Zona's" mother "Tasana", but the real message she sand to Tasana's daughter: "Zona, if you fall in love and marry someone who is not your level (and by level she mean on material wealth), it will be a great embarrassment for your mother."
"Dafina" is a Russian olive (Elaeagnus angustifolia), an ornamental tree that resembles an olive, although it is not related. It means something, because "Zona's" rich father "Zamfir" paid special attention and personally took care of two Russian olives, that were in front of their house, and when they bloom, he didn't even come out of the house.


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