# Salumi freschi e stagionati



## Bella Tusa

Sto decrivendo i servizi offerti da un agriturismo. Tra questi c'è la vendita di salumi sia freschi che stagionati.
Ecco. Come direste voi 

"Salumi freschi e stagionati"?

Io ho messo:

"Cold cuts, fresh and seasoned".

Qualche suggerimento?


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## ToscanoNYC

Seasoned vuol dire speziato, aromatizzato.  Io direi "fresh and aged cold cuts".


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## Black Opal

Fresh and _matured_ cold cuts?


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## ToscanoNYC

Sì, si può dire anche matured.


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## L'equilibrista

Hi to all,
For "salumi", besides "cold cuts", can you also say "cold (pork) meats"?


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## anglomania1

Hi there, 
I have to translate "salumi" for a winery in the Piacenza area and they are talking about typical food from this area.
I know that "cold cuts" is the usual translation found in dictionaries, but I'm not convinced an anglo-saxon would understand "salumi" as intended by an Italian. 
I mean, wouldn't roast beef or turkey be considered a cold cut if you eat it cold with a salad, for example?
Can't we say "cured meats"? Would it be nearer the mark?
Thanks for any comments, 
Anglo


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## King Crimson

anglomania1 said:


> Hi there,
> I have to translate "salumi" for a winery in the Piacenza area and they are talking about typical food from this area.
> I know that "cold cuts" is the usual translation found in dictionaries, but I'm not convinced an anglo-saxon would understand "salumi" as intended by an Italian.
> I mean, wouldn't roast beef or turkey be considered a cold cut if you eat it cold with a salad, for example?
> Can't we say "cured meats"? Would it be nearer the mark?
> Thanks for any comments,
> Anglo


 
I'm no expert here but perhaps "cured" could work, for example "cured ham" is our "prosciutto crudo" and "ham" alone (our "prosciutto cotto"), strictly speaking, is not considered a _salume_ (see Wiki)
I had a doubt regarding the fact that "cured meats" includes but it's not not limited to pork meat, but then I noticed that "salumi", though mostly made from pork meat, also includes other types of meat (a notable example is the "bresaola").
HTH


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## anglomania1

King Crimson said:


> I'm no expert here but perhaps "cured" could work, for example "cured ham" is our "prosciutto crudo" and "ham" alone (our "prosciutto cotto"), strictly speaking, is not considered a _salume_ (see Wiki)
> I had a doubt regarding the fact that "cured meats" includes but it's not not limited to pork meat, but then I noticed that "salumi", though mostly made from pork meat, also includes other types of meat (a notable example is the "bresaola").
> HTH


Thanks, very useful!!
I'll go for* cured meats* then (really don't like cold cuts!!).
I think the "curing" is the process, whereas cold cuts is just leaving meat to cool after it's cooked (In fact why would you call them "cold" cuts unless they had once been "hot"!).
Anglo


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## Tunalagatta

Just an idea, but what about saying _charcuterie_ (and using italics)? I know it's a bit silly because it's French, but English speakers might understand the concept through that...


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## anglomania1

Tunalagatta said:


> Just an idea, but what about saying _charcuterie_ (and using italics)? I know it's a bit silly because it's French, but English speakers might understand the concept through that...


Hi there, 
it's not silly at all - in fact I  saw they use this on Wiki - I wasn't sure about it, though.
Does everyone understand it? Or only if you studied French? - This is my dilemma

Thanks, Anglo


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## johngiovanni

Another dilemma for me would be whether to use a French word (which a lot of English people know, but some do not) to replace an Italian word in the context of "i servizi offerti da un agriturismo" in Italy would be a good idea.  I might be tempted to keep "salumi" then, in brackets, "charcuterie / cured meats" - because fewer people would know the Italian word.


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## anglomania1

johngiovanni said:


> Another dilemma for me would be whether to use a French word (which a lot of English people know, but some do not) to replace an Italian word in the context of "i servizi offerti da un agriturismo" in Italy would be a good idea.  I might be tempted to keep "salumi" then, in brackets, "charcuterie / cured meats" - because fewer people would know the Italian word.


So maybe just "cured meats" is best after all.
Thanks for everyone's contributions
Anglo


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## Tunalagatta

anglomania1 said:


> Hi there,
> it's not silly at all - in fact I  saw they use this on Wiki - I wasn't sure about it, though.
> Does everyone understand it? Or only if you studied French? - This is my dilemma
> 
> Thanks, Anglo



I couldn't say. I only know the word from being a food fan, not from French studies! 

On the one hand, you might think that people reading about a_griturismi_ are likely to be foodies and understand anyway, but on the other, you can never be sure. There's nothing obvious in the word that could give a hint, either. It's definitely French for some kind of food, but it might be cakes for all you know!

I thought I'd just put that idea out there anyway


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## King Crimson

As often happens, translating terms that are deeply rooted in a country's culture (and in Italy this includes cooking) proves to be a hard task, no matter how hard you try, and this is a classical example of it.

@Tunalagatta: before suggesting/confirming "cured meats" I also had a look at _Charcuterie_ but (according to Wiki, at least) this seems to include terrines, galatines and the like. which have nothing to do with _salumi_. Whether this can be more understandable to English natives I don't know, but for sure they would get the wrong meaning.

@johngiovanni: using _charcuterie / cured meats_ in tandem could be another option, but the more I think to it, the more I'm convinced that whatever translation you propose you would need an explanatory note, and this seems confirmed by the fact that three natives here don't get the same meaning from the same word.

P.S. by the way, when I looked at the English page in Wiki corresponding to the Italian for _salumi_, much to my bewilderment, I got "sausages", which, again, doesn't match with _salumi_.


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## anglomania1

King Crimson said:


> As often happens, translating terms that are deeply rooted in a country's culture (and in Italy this includes cooking) proves to be a hard task, no matter how hard you try, and this is a classical example of it. *I agree!!*
> 
> @Tunalagatta: before suggesting/confirming "cured meats" I also had a look at _Charcuterie_ but (according to Wiki, at least) this seems to include terrines, galatines and the like. which have nothing to do with _salumi_. Whether this can be more understandable to English natives I don't know, but for sure they would get the wrong meaning.* Sounds more like a delicatessen, then!*
> 
> @johngiovanni: using _charcuterie / cured meats_ in tandem could be another option, but the more I think to it, the more I'm convinced that whatever translation you propose you would need an explanatory note, and this seems confirmed by the fact that three natives here don't get the same meaning from the same word.
> 
> P.S. by the way, when I looked at the English page in Wiki corresponding to the Italian for _salumi_, much to my bewilderment, I got "sausages", which, again, doesn't match with _salumi_.*  Yes, I've found sausages in more than one translation -I don't think it's possibile to comment on this!!!*



So at the end, I still think "cured meats" is the best. I think people would imagine meat that has been salted to preserve it and possibly connect this with Parma ham, salami and the likes.
Thanks to all of you, 
Anglo


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## anglomania1

Hi again, 
just to add to this discussion, I found this on cured meats in an America blog!
The photo says it all, really!
Hope this helps, 
Anglo


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## Einstein

anglomania1 said:


> Hi again,
> just to add to this discussion, I found this on cured meats in an America blog!
> The photo says it all, really!
> Hope this helps,
> Anglo


Hi Anglo
Yes, "cured meats" is definitely right. Problems arise when you have to translate "salumi e insaccati"! One translation of "insaccati" is "sausages", but I tend to think that means fresh sausages, not salame.


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## anglomania1

Einstein said:


> Hi Anglo
> Yes, "cured meats" is definitely right. Problems arise when you have to translate "salumi e insaccati"! One translation of "insaccati" is "sausages", but I tend to think that means fresh sausages, not salame.


Hi Einstein, 
yes, I'm not sure I've really understood the difference between salumi and insaccati! Do you know?
Maybe they are all cured meats to us!
Anglo


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## johngiovanni

Quote: "Maybe they are all cured meats to us!"
No, apparently they are all sausages!


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## theartichoke

Einstein said:


> Hi Anglo
> Yes, "cured meats" is definitely right. Problems arise when you have to translate "salumi e insaccati"! One translation of "insaccati" is "sausages", but I tend to think that means fresh sausages, not salame.



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "insaccati" refer to those cured meats that involve chopping or grinding the meat, fat, etc., mixing it with salt and spices, and then curing it in a casing? Whereas "salumi" more generally can involve meats that are cured as a single piece, like a _prosciutto crudo_ or a _lonza_? If so, then "insaccati" are "cured sausages", but a certain class of them (depending on circumference and content) would be called "salamis" instead. 

The problem that arises with translating "salumi e insaccati" (or one of the problems!) would be that "cured meats and cured sausages" is precise, but sounds redundant with the repeated adjective, while "cured meats and sausages" leaves it ambiguous as to whether the "cured" applies to both nouns, or if the sausages are in fact of the fresh variety!

By the way, are "insaccati" included in the category of "salumi" the way that "cured sausages" fall under the category of "cured meats"?


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## london calling

Here's an article which explains what 'insaccati' are. And no, they're not all sausages, as you will see.

And getting back to the original question (salumi freschi e stagionati) , I think I'd say 'sausages and cured meats'.


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## theartichoke

london calling said:


> Here's an article which explains what 'insaccati' are. And no, they're not all sausages, as you will see.



Hmm, I'd forgotten about mortadella and its ilk, which are neither sausages nor salamis. Everything else on that list, including _sanguinacci _and _zampone _could be fairly described as a kind of sausage. I 'm starting to think there's simply no English category for _insaccati _beyond "cured meats." 



> And getting back to the original question (salumi freschi e stagionati) , I think I'd say 'sausages and cured meats'.



I'm still puzzled by "salumi freschi": are these "raw" sausages that require cooking, then? Or the kind of half-cured sausages that an Italian cousin of mine once fed me: home-made, with the taste of a salami but the texture of raw meat? Delicious, but definitely ranked up there with the oddest things I've eaten (and I've eaten some odd stuff).


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## london calling

Yes arti,  the _salumi freschi - salsicce_ they mention in the link are raw and need to be cooked. The half-cured, salami-like sausage you mention must have been something like a _sbriciolona_ (my son's all-time favourite), which comes from Tuscany and is basically a finocchiona (a salame, an 'insaccato') which has been cured over a shorter period, so it seems almost raw. We  buy 'loose'  Chianti in Castellina in Chianti: lunch is very often sbriciolona, cheese, salad, crusty bread  and a glass of Chanti in a place near there called Monteriggioni.


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## theartichoke

london calling said:


> Yes arti,  the _salumi freschi - salsicce_ they mention in the link are raw and need to be cooked.



Good to know: I'd always assumed the word "salumi" referred strictly to cured meat products and thus excluded raw sausages. 

As for the rest of it: _why_ exactly do I live in Canada? The half-cured sausage in question, by the way, was quite small (the size of your average sausage for grilling, so a good deal smaller than the _finocchiona_ I've eaten) and was in the process of further curing and drying, though exactly how dry it would eventually get, I don't know. This was near Fermo, in Le Marche.


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## Odysseus54

"Salame" and "salume" both derive, etymologically, from 'sale', 'salt', a natural antibacterial agent, which is the main ingredient for curing meats in such a way that they hold for a prolonged time without going bad.

A fresh sausage is still cured, it is still a 'salume'.  So is prosciutto - although I suspect that calling a 'prosciutto cotto' a 'salume' might be considered a stretch, because the method used to preserve the meat in a 'prosciutto cotto' is steaming or baking.

'Insaccati' are a subcategory of 'salumi' - as it has been said, they are ground meat or ground and processed meat cured and stuffed into a casing, traditionally a section of the animal's intestine. An 'insaccato' can be consumed fresh, as with 'salsicce', or dried/aged, as with 'salame'.



london calling said:


> Yes arti,  the _salumi freschi - salsicce_ they mention in the link are raw and need to be cooked. The half-cured, salami-like sausage you mention must have been something like a _sbriciolona_ (my son's all-time favourite), which comes from Tuscany and is basically a finocchiona (a salame, an 'insaccato') which has been cured over a shorter period, so it seems almost raw. We  buy 'loose'  Chianti in Castellina in Chianti: lunch is very often sbriciolona, cheese, salad, crusty bread  and a glass of Chanti in a place near there called Monteriggioni.



I am not sure I agree - if I know who made it, I may eat sausage raw, although my American RN wife yells at me when I do.  We also have 'ciauscolo', which is a very fresh salami that you actually spread on your bread.  A salame, after all , is just a sausage that has been left out to dry.  All salami are raw, with the notable exception of 'salame cotto', they are just drier than salsiccia.

Does the verb 'cure' in English mean both 'preserve in salt/brine' and 'dry' ?


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## johngiovanni

Quote: "Does the verb 'cure' in English mean both 'preserve in salt/brine' and 'dry' ?"
Yes, and more!  See, for example: http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/methods


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## Odysseus54

johngiovanni said:


> Quote: "Does the verb 'cure' in English mean both 'preserve in salt/brine' and 'dry' ?"
> Yes, and more!  See, for example: http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing/methods



Then we have to be careful when we talk - when at #23 LC writes ".. the half-cured, salami-like sausage..", she probably means 'fresher/softer, not completely dry', but in the sense of 'seasoned with salt and spices for preservation', finocchiona, ciauscolo, salsicce, are indeed all cured, regardless of the dryness, consistency, hardness etc.  Right ?


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## theartichoke

Odysseus54 said:


> Then we have to be careful when we talk - when at #23 LC writes ".. the half-cured, salami-like sausage..", she probably means 'fresher/softer, not completely dry', but in the sense of 'seasoned with salt and spices for preservation', finocchiona, ciauscolo, salsicce, are indeed all cured, regardless of the dryness, consistency, hardness etc.  Right ?



This gets a bit tricky. I was the person who originally referred to this home-made sausage as "half-cured," and I did indeed mean "softer, not completely dry": as I clarify in #24, this was a sausage, seasoned with salt and spices, that was in the process of drying. When I ate it, though, the texture was completely unlike any "cured" sausage I'd ever eaten: I'm quite familiar with choosing between softer/fresher or drier chorizo, and my local Polish deli always asks "soft or hard?" when you ask for one of the sausages hanging from their rack. But the one my cousin served me was much closer to the texture of raw meat (maybe this is a Marchigiano habit, Ody, of eating raw sausage when you know who's made it?).

All this to say that the word "cured" tends to be used, at least by laypeople who aren't involved in the technical aspects of _salumi_-making, to refer to a product that is at the _end_ of whatever process is being used to cure it. But I am perhaps just showing my ignorance of this particular kind of sausage by calling it "half-cured": after all, my cousin felt it, cut into it, and pronounced it ready to eat. Presumably she felt it was merely a very fresh "cured" sausage.


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## Paulfromitaly

It's worth noting that there are hundreds of salumi and insaccati in Italy and even if they go by the same name they can be very different depending on the region or even the province they are typical of.
Brescia and Bergamo are neighbouring, nonetheless what we call "cotechino" in Brescia is something quite different from what a cotechino is in Bergamo!


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## Odysseus54

theartichoke said:


> This gets a bit tricky. I was the person who originally referred to this home-made sausage as "half-cured," and I did indeed mean "softer, not completely dry": as I clarify in #24, this was a sausage, seasoned with salt and spices, that was in the process of drying. When I ate it, though, the texture was completely unlike any "cured" sausage I'd ever eaten: I'm quite familiar with choosing between softer/fresher or drier chorizo, and my local Polish deli always asks "soft or hard?" when you ask for one of the sausages hanging from their rack. But the one my cousin served me was much closer to the texture of raw meat (maybe this is a Marchigiano habit, Ody, of eating raw sausage when you know who's made it?).
> 
> All this to say that the word "cured" tends to be used, at least by laypeople who aren't involved in the technical aspects of _salumi_-making, to refer to a product that is at the _end_ of whatever process is being used to cure it. But I am perhaps just showing my ignorance of this particular kind of sausage by calling it "half-cured": after all, my cousin felt it, cut into it, and pronounced it ready to eat. Presumably she felt it was merely a very fresh "cured" sausage.



I did not mean to criticize anybody, of course.  I just realized that when using the term 'cured', 'curing' etc., there is a possibility of misunderstanding because of this double meaning of 'seasoned' and 'dried'.

As to the Italian 'salumi', I think the prevailing meaning is that of 'cured with salt', which covers both the whole cuts kind (prosciutto, lonza, guanciale, pancetta etc.) and the 'ground, seasoned and stuffed in gut casing' kind (salsiccia, salame, cotechino etc.) , regardless of how well dried/hard they are.  

Going back to the initial question - are we all in agreement that 'cured meats' is the closest translation ?  I personally can't think of any other term, but I also find 'cured meats' a bit generic.  And perhaps, because of my American experience, what comes to mind when I hear that is beef jerky, corned beef, aged Angus beef, as well as of course bacon, country ham, sausage.


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## theartichoke

Odysseus54 said:


> I did not mean to criticize anybody, of course.  I just realized that when using the term 'cured', 'curing' etc., there is a possibility of misunderstanding because of this double meaning of 'seasoned' and 'dried'.



I didn't feel criticized. I just find it an interesting question: at what point in the curing process can a cured meat be said to be cured? (Also, I really enjoy thinking about _salumi_). But I agree that "cured meats" (unless we're willing to take recourse to the French _charcuterie_, as someone suggested much earlier) may be our only translation.


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## london calling

Odysseus54 said:


> I am not sure I agree - if I know who made it, I may eat sausage raw, although my American RN wife yells at me when I do.  We also have 'ciauscolo', which is a very fresh salami that you actually spread on your bread.  A salame, after all , is just a sausage that has been left out to dry.  All salami are raw, with the notable exception of 'salame cotto', they are just drier than salsiccia.


I'm sure the _salsicce_ mentioned in the link are the ones which need cooking (if your name isn't Gabriel!). And  'ciauscolo' sounds the same as the 'sbriciolona' I mentioned: you spread that on bread too, it being an almost raw 'finocchiona'.


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## italtrav

Ciao a tutti

_Insaccati_ are both raw and cured or cooked. My opinion: the best AE translation for _salumi and insaccati_ would be 'cured meats, sausages, and salami(s).' The 's' at the end of salami is optional, but could serve to emphasize the range of salamis (which are cured _insaccati_) available.


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