# Is خريطة a Greek word?



## James Bates

Are خريطة and the root خَرَطَ as in خرط الورق ("he rubbed off the leaves from the branches") related to the Greek word χάρτης?


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## Mighis

No, if I search for a classical Arabic phrase using the word _kharîta_, I'll find a _Hadith _(a saying attributed to Prophet) goes as follows:
النَّاسُ أَخْيَافٌ : أَيْ مُخْتَلِفُونَ ،  وَالْخَافَةُ : *خَرِيطَةٌ مِنْ أَدَمٍ* يَتَقَلَّدُهَا الرَّجُلُ إِذَا  صَعِدَ إِلَى الْعَسَلِ ، وَالْخَافَةُ : جُبَّةُ جُلُودٍ يَلْبَسُهَا  السَّقَّاءُ ، وَالْخَافَةُ : الْغَيْبُ
And I believe خَرِيطَةٌ مِنْ أَدَمٍ here means_ a piece of _(the inside) _leather _which looks like an ancient map (like that one used in the movie of pirates of the Caribbean).
أَدَمٍ also means earth's face, and a lot of other meanings.


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## آمين

Mighis said:


> No, if I search for a classical Arabic phrase using the word _kharîta_, I'll find a _Hadith _(a saying attributed to Prophet) goes as follows:
> النَّاسُ أَخْيَافٌ : أَيْ مُخْتَلِفُونَ ،  وَالْخَافَةُ : *خَرِيطَةٌ مِنْ أَدَمٍ* يَتَقَلَّدُهَا الرَّجُلُ إِذَا  صَعِدَ إِلَى الْعَسَلِ ، وَالْخَافَةُ : جُبَّةُ جُلُودٍ يَلْبَسُهَا  السَّقَّاءُ ، وَالْخَافَةُ : الْغَيْبُ
> And I believe خَرِيطَةٌ مِنْ أَدَمٍ here means_ a piece of _(the inside) _leather _which looks like an ancient map (like that one used in the movie of pirates of the Caribbean).
> أَدَمٍ also means earth's face, and a lot of other meanings.




It could be - it appears there is some similarly between the meanings - the ancient Greek word is older than Arabic. It means accroding to Wiki - To scratch, Inscribe. 

The Arabic word means to peel, strip away - especially related to trees and wood bark.


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## Mighis

Yes, but speaking only in the context of this combinations: خرط الورق or خرط العنقود or خرط الشجر where the tr. verb gets the meaning of إنتزع (to rap).
I don't know what the χάρτης  *خارتيص  *χαράσσω *خيْراصو *<- Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰer- (wiktionary) means but if to scratch is the right translation then I can compare the lexical meanings of to rap and to scratch, followed by comparing the synonyms. Nothing positive turned out looking at definitions.

Synonyms (to rap): beat, blow, conk, crack, knock, lick, pat, strike, swat, swipe, tap, whack.
Synonyms (to scratch): blemish, claw mark, gash, graze, hurt, laceration, score, scrape.
Synonyms (to inscribe): book, carve, cut, engrave, engross, etch, impress, indite, list, record, register, scribe.

And when I use the on-line Greek Word Study Tool I get nowhere to support the hypothesis. So, as you said: it could be.


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## yields

Hello,
The arabic word which I think originates from χάρτης is Qirtas (قرطاس ), which means a piece of parchment.


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## origumi

Root خرط חרט appears in the Hebrew Bible, for example Exodus 32:4, Isaiah 8:1. It means turner, engraver, etcher, stylus, pen, to smooth, to turn (on lathe), to chisel. So if we assume that this is cognate of the Arabic word, Greek origin is unlikely.


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## آمين

origumi said:


> Root خرط חרט appears in the Hebrew Bible, for example Exodus 32:4, Isaiah 8:1. It means turner, engraver, etcher, stylus, pen, to smooth, to turn (on lathe), to chisel. So if we assume that this is cognate of the Arabic word, Greek origin is unlikely.



Actually the ancient Greek root is older and both Arabic and Hebrew share common meanings with the Greek root. However there has to be some historic link - I don't think somewhat similarity of sound and meaning is enough to say any more than a "maybe".


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## origumi

آمين said:


> Actually the ancient Greek root is older and both Arabic and Hebrew share common meanings with the Greek root. However there has to be some historic link - I don't think somewhat similarity of sound and meaning is enough to say any more than a "maybe".


What do you mean by "older"? If the root is attested in a Semitic text dated to 8-7th century BC (the prophet Isaiah), it is old enough and loaning from Greek is unlikely. What Greek texts are available of similar time? Homer and Hesiod, dated no earlier than early Bible.

The root is not isolated in Hebrew, a clue for originality or at least age. There are two root pairs, חרט-חרץ and חרת-חרש (in Arabic letters خرط-خرص and خرت-خرس) with similar meaning. The former pair is physical - _engrave_, _chisel_, _slot_ the latter means mainly to _write_, _sketch_, and the meanings tend to be mixed since yore (natural considering writing tools of 3000 years ago).


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## fdb

yields said:


> Hello,
> The arabic word which I think originates from χάρτης is Qirtas (قرطاس ), which means a piece of parchment.



The primary meaning of Greek χάρτης is “papyrus leaf, roll of papyrus”. It does not have any plausible connection in Greek or Indo-European, and all the Greek etymological dictionaries say that it is “probably” from Egyptian, “like the plant itself”, though the more cautious etymologists admit that there is no such word in Egyptian. So it is definitely a case of “etymology unknown”. 

The Greek word was borrowed into Latin as _charta,_ whence English “chart, charter” etc., and also into Aramaic (the attested forms are Syriac _qar__ṭī__s__ā_ and Jewish Babylonian Aramaic _qr__ṭ__s__ʼ_), and then from Aramaic into Arabic as _qir__ṭā__s _or _qar__ṭā__s_ “paper”. The normal Aramaic representation of Greek χ is actually _k_, but in this word _k_ has been assimilated to the emphatic _ṭ_ in the second syllable. This phenomenon is fairly common in Aramaic (e.g., in q-ṭ-l “to kill”, as opposed to q-t-l in other Semitic languages). The Greek origin of these word is evident from the fact that they preserve the Greek nominative case ending –ς .

More recently, Greek χάρτης was borrowed into Arabic a second time (presumably directly from Greek) as _xar__īṭ__a, x__ā__ri__ṭ__a_ “map, chart”. These obviously have as such nothing to do with the Arabic and Semitic root x-r-ṭ “to pull off, strip (leaves off a tree), tan (a hide) etc.” Whether or not ancient Semitic x-r-ṭ is a possible source for Greek χάρτης itself is a question that is perhaps worth considering.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Whether or not ancient Semitic x-r-ṭ is a possible source for Greek χάρτης itself is a question that is perhaps worth considering.


Is there any example where PS /x/ entered Greek as <χ> in pre-Byzantine (i.e. before the spirantization of <χ> [kʰ] > [x]) time?


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## fdb

I don’t think there is. One would have to assume something like x-r-ṭ becoming κ-ρ-θ and then (with reversal of aspirates) χ-ρ-τ . But this is just a guess.


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## Abu Rashid

fdb said:


> This phenomenon is fairly common in Aramaic (e.g., in q-ṭ-l “to kill”, as opposed to q-t-l in other Semitic languages).



Hebrew is also q-ṭ-l, but yes all other Semitic languages show q-t-l instead.


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## fdb

Abu Rashid said:


> Hebrew is also q-ṭ-l



Yes, that is true. However, it occurs only in a very small number of passages in the most recent strata of the OT and is generally accepted to be an Aramaic loan.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Yes, that is true. However, it occurs only in a very small number of passages in the most recent strata of the OT and is generally accepted to be an Aramaic loan.


קטל appears in Psalms, unclear dating. Also in old Aramaic: http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6991.htm


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## fdb

origumi said:


> קטל appears in Psalms



Once (Ps. 139:19).


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Once (Ps. 139:19).


And twice in Job. And once in Obadiah. And attested in old Aramaic. So it seems to have deep roots in Hebrew or Aramaic, dependently or independently.


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## fdb

Of course it is in Aramaic. That is why I mentioned it in no.9. And in one early text still as q-t-l, without the assimilation.


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