# Bengali: Mazumdar



## Qureshpor

The title or surname "Mazumdar" appears to be used by both Muslims and Hindus of Bengal and in this way it is probably not different from Chaudhary, Patel or several other such names used in the Subcontinent.. What are the origins of this name?


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## lcfatima

I had actually wondered this myself and looked it up on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majumdar



> a Bengali title, now commonly used as a family name by both Muslims and Hindus. It is derived from the Arabic majmū‛a ‘collection’ and the Persian suffix -dār ‘possessor,’ therefore meaning ‘record keeper’ or ‘archivist.’


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## Wolverine9

Interesting how there was a j>z transition in this name.  Both variations (Majumdar and Mazumdar) seem to be common.

ancestry.com confirms the wikipedia etymology.


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## greatbear

There is also another common surname found in India: Majmundar. I wonder if it's related in any way.


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## kaushalsingh

i found the same thing.it also says the surname has evolved from an official title!!


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## Qureshpor

Dib Jii, can you shed some light on this topic?


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## Dib

1. I don't think Majumar/Mazumdar is a common Bengali Muslim surname, though definitely common among Hindus.

2. I don't know the etymology. The phonetic developments for majmu'a-daar > majum-daar (rather, "mojumdar" as it is pronounced) looks a bit strange, but I don't have a better alternative. In fact, it might well be true, assuming that the title "majmu'a-daar" indeed existed. There are many other surnames that evolved from titles from the Muslim era. So, I won't be surprised.

3. As for the variation j~z. As far as I know, there exists no Bengali dialect, sociolect or register that distinguishes them. However, many Eastern variants realize it as a "z" (even in Indic words, and foreign words containing j) and Western variants (including Standard Bengali) realize it as a "j" (also in foreign words containing z). So, the j~z variation is nothing Majumdar-specific. Informal Roman transliteration of Bengali often shows this j~z confusion, because they are not distinguished in Bengali speech. Yes, a thick (Western) Bengali accented English would sound like "hoyar ij di/da oaTar?" for "where is the water?"


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## fdb

Presumably there is some established Urdu-script spelling for this name?


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## marrish

I know of this one: مجمدار On the net there are four results for مجمعدار, of which three in Sindhi and one in Urdu. مجمدار is used in books for authors' name.


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## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> Presumably there is some established Urdu-script spelling for this name?


Yes, there is مجموعہ دار.

_majmūʼa-dār_, s.m. 'A record-keeper'; a title given to the servants of a _qānūn-go

دھخدا gives..
_
مجموع دار. [ م َ ](نف  مرکب ) به  اصطلاح  مردم  هند، حافظ دفتر و آن  که   ضبط می کند اسناد مالیات  یک  ولایتی  را. (ناظم  الاطباء).


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> _majmūʼa-dār_, s.m. 'A record-keeper'; a title given to the servants of a _qānūn-go
> _



Btw, _qānūn-go _> kanungo is also a common-enough Bengali Hindu surname, though not as common as Majumdar.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> 1. I don't think Majumar/Mazumdar is a common Bengali Muslim surname, though definitely common among Hindus.
> 
> 2. I don't know the etymology. The phonetic developments for majmu'a-daar > majum-daar (rather, "mojumdar" as it is pronounced) looks a bit strange, but I don't have a better alternative. In fact, it might well be true, assuming that the title "majmu'a-daar" indeed existed. There are many other surnames that evolved from titles from the Muslim era. So, I won't be surprised.
> 
> 3. As for the variation j~z. As far as I know, there exists no Bengali dialect, sociolect or register that distinguishes them. However, many Eastern variants realize it as a "z" (even in Indic words, and foreign words containing j) and Western variants (including Standard Bengali) realize it as a "j" (also in foreign words containing z). So, the j~z variation is nothing Majumdar-specific. Informal Roman transliteration of Bengali often shows this j~z confusion, because they are not distinguished in Bengali speech. Yes, a thick (Western) Bengali accented English would sound like "hoyar ij di/da oaTar?" for "where is the water?"


Thank you for your detailed reply Dib Jii.


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## lcfatima

I googled Maz(j)umdar with common Muslim given names (Muhammad Mazumdar, etc.) and got hits. It also turned up results for "Maz(j)umder" which I thought was interesting because -daar as the Persic suffix. I also see Majumder on the wiki.

Majumdar banglalipite kaemon lekha hobe? Is it differently written if the name is Majumder?


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## Sujon

Arabic influenced Persian was the language of governance in Muslim-ruled Bengal before the British colonization. During the Muslim rule, many people adopted the name of their profession / activity as their surname. Some of these names were Arabic / Persian added with Persian suffix Dar. Examples include মজুমদার (maj/zumdar), তালুকদার (talukdar), শিকদার (shikdar), তরফদার (tarafdar), চাকলাদার (chakladar), হাওলাদার (hawladar) and so on. Both Muslims and non-Muslims used such surnames. Bengali Muslims have a relaxed attitude towards surnames, and these days such names are not considered modern. So these names are dying out among Muslims. My grandfather was a Hawladar, but my father did not carry this surname.


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you, sujon SaaHib for your informative input. Please visit us more often if you are able to. Your presence doubles the number of Bengali speakers in this Forum!


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## Dib

Sujon said:


> Examples include মজুমদার (maj/zumdar), তালুকদার (talukdar), শিকদার (shikdar), তরফদার (tarafdar), চাকলাদার (chakladar), হাওলাদার (hawladar) and so on. Both Muslims and non-Muslims used such surnames. Bengali Muslims have a relaxed attitude towards surnames, and these days such names are not considered modern. So these names are dying out among Muslims. My grandfather was a Hawladar, but my father did not carry this surname.



First of all, as Qureshpor said, it is such a welcome sight to see another Bengali speaker on this forum. Apart from that, thanks for spelling this out. This does explain the skewed distribution of these very Arabo-Persian surnames (and surnames in general) among Bengali Hindus and Muslims to some extent - Bengali Hindus seem to be very rigorous about having a surname, and are thus overrepresented - so to say. I totally overlooked that. But, it is worth noting that some other surnames are still fairly common among both religious groups, like: নস্কর (Naskar), মণ্ডল (Mandal), খাঁ (Khan), ভুঁইয়া/ভূঞ্যা/... myriad other spellings (Bhuniya), etc.



lcfatima said:


> Majumdar banglalipite kaemon lekha hobe? Is it differently written if the name is Majumder?



Sujon has given the spelling: মজুমদার| I'll just add that, I think Majumder is just another Romanization of the same name, without any implied difference in the Bengali spelling and pronunciation. Theoretically, it could represent a মজুমদের too, but as far as I know, that does not actually exist.


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## lcfatima

Would people who have these kinds of surnames typically be Bengali kaysthas?


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## Wolverine9

Dib said:


> But, it is worth noting that some other surnames are still fairly common among both religious groups, like: নস্কর (Naskar), মণ্ডল (Mandal), খাঁ (Khan), ভুঁইয়া/ভূঞ্যা/... myriad other spellings (Bhuniya), etc.



Are you sure "Khan" is used by both groups?


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## Dib

lcfatima said:


> Would people who have these kinds of surnames typically be Bengali kaysthas?



I have to admit, I don't know. I know quite a few people (of Hindu background) with these surnames, except Hawladar, but I know the caste background of only one of them - a Brahmin Majumdar. I think, I understand the underlying reason for your guess, but I am sorry, I cannot confirm/deny it.



Wolverine9 said:


> Are you sure "Khan" is used by both groups?



Yes, very much sure, and not only in Bengal. We had a Hindi teacher in our school - a Maithili Brahmin, as I heard - who too was a Khan with a very distinctly Hindu name referring to two deities.


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## lcfatima

Is the Bhuniya name also Bhuiyan?

I did the google name test for Bengali Hindu Khans with the random names Anirban Khan and Pritam Khan found some located in West Bengal. Interesting.


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## Dib

lcfatima said:


> Is the Bhuniya name also Bhuiyan?



It can be, I think. This surname is pronounced (in IPA): /bʱũĩjã/ in Standard Bengali and /bʱũja/ in my "heritage" dialect. So, that spelling would make sense. It is originally a land-owner's title, from /bʱũĩ/ ভুঁই < Sanskrit bhūmi ভূমি, land + I guess, the suffix -ia signifying possession. The most famous of them were the "twelve lords" / "baro bhu~iya" (বারো ভুঁইয়া) from the Mughal era, when they made a loose confederacy and resisted the Mughal hegemony. They are still quite a local hero, having been depicted, among others, in Tagore's novel, "bou Thakuranir haT" (ব‌উ ঠাকুরানির হাট).



> I did the google name test for Bengali Hindu Khans with the random names Anirban Khan and Pritam Khan found some located in West Bengal. Interesting.



Pritam, btw, is not a common Bengali name (of course, nothing's impossible in the age of globalization). Most Bengalis wouldn't also understand what it means. Bengali uses the Sanskrit form priyatama > priotɔmo (প্রিয়তম), though not normally as a name. Also, I feel, Bengali Muslims now increasingly have Sanskrit/Bengali names. Sujon can probably comment more on it, if he is around. One of my friends (Muslim) has the official given name "Suman". So, it may be a bit tricky to do the "google name test".


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## Qureshpor

Here is another example, which I am sure all of you will find interesting. *Gerrald Majumdar*. Reading the short piece below does not point to his being a Hindu or a Muslim.

http://www.myfamilyhistory.org.uk/


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## Sujon

Thank you Mr. Qureshpor and Mr. Dib for welcoming me. 

I found a blog post about the origin of Bengali surnames, including Chowdhury, Bhuiyan and various "Dar"s. It's too long to translate. But Mr. Dib and anyone who can read Bangla may find it interesting. 


http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/monirpca/29656990


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## Qureshpor

^ bahut 3arse se baNgaalii zabaan siikhne kii Thaanii hu'ii hai. ab bismi_llaah karnaa hii paRe gii!


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## lcfatima

> One of my friends (Muslim) has the official given name "Suman". So, it may be a bit tricky to do the "google name test".



I find that a lot of Bangladeshi Muslims have Persio-Arabic origin proper names but have Sanskrit origin Daaknaams. I think the most common Sanskrit origin bhaalo naam I have seen is Sumon. Anirban is not the type I have encountered as a Bangladeshi Daak naam (though not saying it could never be) and I checked to make sure our Anirban Khans were on the India side, but I realize the Google test is not scientific. 

Re: That's interesting about Gerrald. I believe there were quite a lot of Anglo-Indians in Kolkata. Maybe somehow that is the Majumdar connection, even though Anglo-Indians typically have British (and sometimes Portueguese) surnames.


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## Sujon

Dib said:


> I feel, Bengali Muslims now increasingly have Sanskrit/Bengali names. Sujon can probably comment more on it, if he is around. One of my friends (Muslim) has the official given name "Suman". So, it may be a bit tricky to do the "google name test".



Bengali Muslims typically have two names - Bhalo Nam (Good name, Formal name) and Dak Nam (Calling name, nick name). The Bhalo Nam of a Bengali Muslim is typically in Arabic. This is the name you will find in Birth certificate, School certificate, Passport and so on. The Dak nam is typically in Bangla. It is used by family members and closed friends. My Bhalo nam is Tanweer ( تنوير), which means enlightenment / illumination. I had at least three Dak nams, the least used (and now extinct) one was Sujon (meaning Good guy  ). I can't remember why I chose this name when I registered in this forum  

Anyway, in this era of satellite TV and internet, people often experiment with their (or their children's) name. Hence, any combination is possible. Some example: Pavel Rahman (Russian + Arabic), Sajeeb Wajed (Bangla + Arabic).

Edit: Yes, Icfatima is right.


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## Dib

Sujon said:


> I found a blog post about the origin of Bengali surnames, including  Chowdhury, Bhuiyan and various "Dar"s. It's too long to translate. But  Mr. Dib and anyone who can read Bangla may find it interesting.



The original Arabo-Persian form for "Majumdar" according to this  blog is "majmu aandaar", the same as given in Sailendra Biswas's  dictionary "Samsad Bangla Abhidhan", which is accessible online from UC  Digital Dictionaries of South Asia pages. However, being written in  Bengali script, and the details of the transliteration scheme being  unclear, I am not sure what exact Persian form this corresponds to.  Anybody else?



Qureshpor said:


> ^ bahut 3arse se baNgaalii zabaan siikhne kii Thaanii hu'ii hai. ab bismi_llaah karnaa hii paRe gii!



lag jaaiye, janaab. is bande se koii madad ho sake, to zaruur farmaaiyegaa.



lcfatima said:


> I find that a lot of Bangladeshi Muslims have Persio-Arabic origin proper names but have Sanskrit origin Daaknaams.



I agree with what you say.



Sujon said:


> Bengali Muslims typically have two names - Bhalo  Nam (Good name, Formal name) and Dak Nam (Calling name, nick  name).



Same with Bengali Hindus. But interestingly, it  seems to me that Bangladeshis/Muslims (I am not sure which factor is more important here - the region or the religion) choose their Dak nam's from the  same/similar pool that Hindus choose their bhalo nam's from. Most of the  Dak nam's current among (mostly Hindu) Kolkatans (my experience in the  countryside is somewhat different) are, however, meaningless (and often even considered inelegant, yet wildly common) but have  become conventionalized.



Sujon said:


> Hence, any  combination is possible. Some example: Pavel Rahman (Russian + Arabic),  Sajeeb Wajed (Bangla + Arabic).



Yeah, the friend I was talking about has the official name, "Suman Ahmed". He is from West Bengal though, not Bangladesh.


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## Sujon

Dib said:


> The original Arabo-Persian form for "Majumdar" according to this  blog is "majmu aandaar", the same as given in Sailendra Biswas's  dictionary "Samsad Bangla Abhidhan", which is accessible online from UC  Digital Dictionaries of South Asia pages. However, being written in  Bengali script, and the details of the transliteration scheme being  unclear, I am not sure what exact Persian form this corresponds to.  Anybody else?



As Icfatima has mentioned in page 1, actually it is Arabic Majmu' (collection), not Persian. Now you say the dictionary you consulted said "majmu aandaar".  Why this extra Aan ? I have a theory. The Persian suffix Aan is used to make a singular word plural. Example: Taalib (one student), Taalibaan (The students). Similiarly, Majmuaan means "the records". So it is a Persianized Arabic word.


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## Qureshpor

^ No Sujon SaaHib, Dib jii wrote مجموعہ دار (majmuu3ah-daar)


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## Dib

Sujon said:


> Now you say the dictionary you consulted said  "majmu aandaar".  Why this extra Aan ? I have a theory. The Persian  suffix Aan is used to make a singular word plural. Example: Taalib (one  student), Taalibaan (The students). Similiarly, Majmuaan means "the  records". So it is a Persianized Arabic word.



I thought in the same line too. But I am less sure. The -aan(i) is  originally the Arabic nominative dual ending, and as you said it has  been adopted in Persian as a plural marker (maybe, through words like  chashm-aan (eyes), etc. which usually come in pair). But, as far as I  know, the -aan is relatively uncommon in Persian for inanimate nouns  (except examples like chashmaan, etc.), for which Persian has adopted  one of the Arabic plural markers, -aat(u), for wider use. To my mind, it  would thus be more natural to use "majmu3aat". I am not saying  "majmu3aan" is totally impossible, but it strikes me as odd.



Qureshpor said:


> ^ No Sujon SaaHib, Dib jii wrote مجموعہ دار (majmuu3ah-daar)



Actually, I didn't. You did, I think. I said, I had no idea.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> [..] Actually, I didn't. You did, I think. I said, I had no idea.


Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote below. 


Dib said:


> [..]
> 
> 2. I don't know the etymology. The phonetic developments for  majmu'a-daar > majum-daar (rather, "mojumdar" as it is pronounced)  looks a bit strange, but I don't have a better alternative. In fact, it  might well be true, assuming that the title "majmu'a-daar" indeed  existed. [..]


I provided majmu'a-daar in Urdu script after fdb SaaHib's enquiry. Platts has the same word in his dictionary _majmūʼa-dār_.


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## Dib

Oh, right, right. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I got the information from lcfatima's post #2, and the wikipedia page that she linked to. Interestingly, someone has edited out the line - "It is derived from the Arabic  majmū’a ‘collection’ and the Persian suffix -dār ‘possessor,’ therefore  meaning ‘record keeper’ or ‘archivist’" - from that wiki page yesterday. I wonder, why.


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## Sujit

Khan surname also prevails among the Bhumihars of  Bihar


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