# Hindi, Urdu: causative sets of 5 verbs



## MonsieurGonzalito

Friends,

Some grammars mention passingly that some verbs have "more than 3: 4 *or even 5*" causative derivative forms, but without providing any example.

  Could someone tell me an example of such 5-sets, if they even exist?

  More generally: is there any resource (printed or online) where lists of causative verbs are compiled systematically, tagged by relevant criteria such as "these verbs have 4 forms",  "these others have 5 forms", "for these ones the forms in -aa-  and -vaa- mean the same", etc?

It would be great if such a thing existed!   We students are constrained to the same old set of, say, 20 tops verbs in most grammars.

 Thanks in advance


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## aevynn

How about this as a set of 7? 

chhuTnaa, chuuTnaa, chhoRnaa, chuRaanaa, chhuTaanaa, chuRvaanaa, chhuTvaanaa

Some of these are uncommon, some are partially or completely synonymous with others... You know the spiel by now


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## littlepond

aevynn said:


> How about this as a set of 7?
> 
> chhuTnaa, *chuuTnaa*, chhoRnaa, *chuRaanaa*, chhuTaanaa, *chuRvaanaa*, chhuTvaanaa


Note that those should be "chhuuTnaa," "chhuRaanaa," and "chhuRvaanaa." Given @aevynn jii had to type so many _h_'s, I assume he missed out on a few.



aevynn said:


> Some of these are uncommon, some are partially or completely synonymous with others... You know the spiel by now


@aevynn jii, is there indeed "chhuTnaa"? My brain is not working probably at the moment, that I can't think of any example with "chhuTnaa." The others are all common, with the possible exception of "chhuTvaanaa."


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> , is there indeed "chhuTnaa"?


It is given in the Saphiro Hindi grammar (page 208 in my edition, under "26.2 Sets of related verbs"), as:
_(intransitive): "to break, to split open"._

He does it precisely in order to illustrate cases of multi-form sets, so maybe he is just stretching the language in order to make a point, as grammarians sometimes do. I wouldn't know.


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## aevynn

Thanks for the typo corrections!

For me personally, the relationship between _chhuTnaa_ and _chhuuTnaa_ feels similar to the relationship between _jagnaa_ and _jaagnaa_ -- in the sense that: (a) The latter of each pair feels extremely mundane but I probably wouldn't use the former in my day-to-day life, and (b) one situation where I'd expect to hear/read the former of each pair is if the action was somehow more involuntary, out of my personal control, etc?

Here is a ghazal by Mustafa Zaidi whose _radiif_ is _chhuT gayaa_, and here is a couplet from this ghazal that I particularly like:
​duniyaa tamaam chhuT ga'ii paimaane ke liye​wo(h) mai-kade meN aa'e to paimaanaa/h chhuT gayaa​


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## Pokeflute

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Could someone tell me an example of such 5-sets, if they even exist?



Not as impressive as the "choRnaa" series (7?!?!) but I've always liked the "dekhna" series:

dikhnaa, dikhaanaa, dekhnaa, dikhlaanaa, dikhvaanaa, and dikhalvanaa 

I'm not exactly sure the exact meaning of the last 3, but I've encountered them here and there.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> It is given in the Saphiro Hindi grammar (page 208 in my edition, under "26.2 Sets of related verbs"), as:
> _(intransitive): "to break, to split open"._



Are you sure the verb in that book is "chhuTnaa" (छुटना)? Because the meaning of "to break, to split open" is very weird for any verb in this "series."



aevynn said:


> For me personally, the relationship between _chhuTnaa_ and _chhuuTnaa_ feels similar to the relationship between _jagnaa_ and _jaagnaa_ -- in the sense that: (a) The latter of each pair feels extremely mundane but I probably wouldn't use the former in my day-to-day life, and (b) one situation where I'd expect to hear/read the former of each pair is if the action was somehow more involuntary, out of my personal control, etc?


Interesting. I use both "jagnaa" and "jaagnaa" and feel quite a significant difference between the two (with places where they can overlap); however, I am still unable to wrap my head around "chhuTnaa" as "chhuuTnaa" itself is quite an out-of-control verb ("gaaRii chhuuT gayii"). However, you may have a point, because maybe to those who don't use "jagnaa," even "jagnaa" and "jaagnaa" feel like that?



aevynn said:


> Here is a ghazal by Mustafa Zaidi whose _radiif_ is _chhuT gayaa_, and here is a couplet from this ghazal that I particularly like:
> ​duniyaa tamaam chhuT ga'ii paimaane ke liye​wo(h) mai-kade meN aa'e to paimaanaa/h chhuT gayaa​



Lovely ghazal, but I wonder if usage of "chhuuT" would change anything? Could "chhuTnaa" be just a dialectical synonym of "chhuuTnaa" instead of a word with different shade of meaning?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> Are you sure the verb in that book is "chhuTnaa" (छुटना)? Because the meaning of "to break, to split open" is very weird for any verb in this "series."


No, you are right, the first verb in Saphiro's series is _chuuTnaa  _(long _uu_). Sorry.


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## aevynn

littlepond said:


> Interesting. I use both "jagnaa" and "jaagnaa" and feel quite a significant difference between the two (with places where they can overlap); however, I am still unable to wrap my head around "chhuTnaa" as "chhuuTnaa" itself is quite an out-of-control verb ("gaaRii chhuuT gayii"). However, you may have a point, because maybe to those who don't use "jagnaa," even "jagnaa" and "jaagnaa" feel like that?
> 
> Lovely ghazal, but I wonder if usage of "chhuuT" would change anything? Could "chhuTnaa" be just a dialectical synonym of "chhuuTnaa" instead of a word with different shade of meaning?


Yeah the ghazal does make sense with chhuuTnaa, so it could very well be a dialectical synonym as you say. It's probably best to wait to hear from someone who does use chhuTnaa in a more everyday context and can comment more definitively on its differences with chhuuTnaa, if there are any!


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> No, you are right, the first verb in Saphiro's series is _chuuTnaa  _(long _uu_). Sorry.



But "chhuuTnaa" either doesn't mean "to break, to split open."


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## littlepond

littlepond said:


> Could "chhuTnaa" be just a dialectical synonym of "chhuuTnaa" instead of a word with different shade of meaning?



@Qureshpor jii, could you, maybe, with your extensive knowledge of poetry and Urdu, shed some light on "chhuTnaa"?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> But "chhuuTnaa" either doesn't mean "to break, to split open."


OMG, I mistook it for the next one in the list, _phuuTnaa_. Please ignore me completely.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> OMG, I mistook it for the next one in the list, _phuuTnaa_.


Which does give us a set: _phuuTnaa_, _phoRnaa_, _phuRaanaa_ (rare), _phuRvaanaa_, _phuTvaanaa_ (rare)

I wonder if there's a _phuTnaa_ (there should be in the world of those who have _chhuTnaa_?).


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> I wonder if there's a _phuTnaa_ (there should be in the world of those who have _chhuTnaa_?).





PLATTSफुटनाپهٿناپهٿنا फुटना phuṭnā, v.n.=phūṭnā, q.v.


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## Ali Smith

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> PLATTSफुटनाپهٿناپهٿنا फुटना phuṭnā, v.n.=phūṭnā, q.v.


The letter with four dots is a Sindhi letter. What dictionary were you consulting, if I may ask?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

It is Platts, a 120 year-old dictionary which still refers to the Hindi/Urdu spectrum as "Hindustani". The four dots are the original way in which the upperscript to'e was written.


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## marrish

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Platts, a 120 year-old dictionary which still refers to the Hindi/Urdu spectrum as "Hindustani".





> Platts, John T. (John Thompson). A_ dictionary of Urdu, classical Hindi, and English_. London: W. H. Allen & Co., 1884.


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## desi4life

littlepond said:


> Could "chhuTnaa" be just a dialectical synonym of "chhuuTnaa" instead of a word with different shade of meaning?



According to Platts and Hindi Shabd Saagar, “chhuTnaa” and “chhuuTnaa” have the same meaning. I personally use the verb “chhuTnaa” more so than “chhuuTnaa”.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

marrish said:


>


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## Qureshpor

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> It is Platts, a 120 year-old dictionary which still refers to the Hindi/Urdu spectrum as "Hindustani". The four dots are the original way in which the upperscript to'e was written.
> 
> View attachment 64933


No, this is not true.

The Hindustani language published in 1826 by Shakespeare represents these sounds by using a dash but the author makes an interesting observation..."though it may be noticed that not only this expedient is adopted by the people of India but the distinction is very commonly made by a small ط written over these letters..." This implies that the use of ط to represent retroflex sounds is a native innovation and has been around at least before 1826. How much before, I can't say. The four dots and the dash was used by British authors. The superscript to'e is found in Ghalib's hand written letters.


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