# Algerian Arabic: ça dépend nta houwa li dirlhoum l’envie, be as-sif bech yesma3 tes chansons



## vevooo

Hi everyone! 

Some more questions about a short fragment in Algerian Arabic:

_ça dépend _*nta houwa li dirlhoum* l’envie, *be as-sif bech yesma3 *_tes chansons. La tentation_ *ta3 wednou bayna beli machi 9abel*
it depends, you are the one who gives them the desire, by force so he could listen to your songs. (From?) the temptation of his ear it appears clear that he doesn't agree 

Is this a good literal translation? I know it means something like 'you make them listen to your music over and over again, it’s obvious that his ear doesn’t want to listen'

Thanks!


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## djara

I'm not Algerian but here's my attempt...
_ça dépend _*nta houwa li dirlhoum* l’envie, 
*it depends, you are the one who gives them the desire*​*be as-sif bech yesma3 *_tes chansons. _
_He's bound to listen to your songs_​_La tentation_*ta3 wednou bayna beli machi 9abel*
His ear is clearly tempted, even though he doesn't accept (the music?)
Not sure about my interpretation of beli, though.​


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## Hemza

Here's my attempt for the last sentence:

*It is clear that he doesn't want to listen to it* (the music). But it is said in a very odd way. It can't even be called _un calque_ from French since even in French we wouldn't say it like this. And I think it shoud be "تاعت" (ta3t) and not "ta3" since "tentation" in French is feminine (well we're faaaaar from grammar rules here  )


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## vevooo

Thanks again djara & Hemza! So ta3 is a verb? At first I thought it's some sort of preposition which means "from/of" and expresses relations of possesion. I've never seen it in MSA, so I guess it's a dialectal thing, is that right? Sorry for the stupid questions


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## djara

vevooo said:


> So ta3 is a verb?


No, it isn't.


vevooo said:


> I thought it's some sort of preposition


You were right, it is. Literally: the temptation of his ear is clear.


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## vevooo

Oh ok thanks, I got confused because of this:



Hemza said:


> And I think it shoud be "تاعت" (ta3t) and not "ta3" since "tentation" in French is feminine (well we're faaaaar from grammar rules here  )



Normally you don't alter prepositions for gender, or is it different in this case?


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## elroy

It functions as a preposition, but it comes from an adjective (تابع) so it at least can inflect for gender.  In some dialects, like Syrian, the gender distinction has been lost and now there's only one form, whereas in others, like Palestinian, the word still inflects for gender (and number, in fact) and gender agreement is obligatory.  I'm not sure what the situation is like in Algerian.


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## vevooo

elroy said:


> It functions as a preposition, but it comes from an adjective (تابع) so it at least can inflect for gender.  In some dialects, like Syrian, the gender distinction has been lost and now there's only one form, whereas in others, like Palestinian, the word still inflects for gender (and number, in fact) and gender agreement is obligatory.  I'm not sure what the situation is like in Algerian.



Ahhh I see, so in that case the last ta in "تاعت" is a ta marbuta? 
Thanks for your explanation


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## Hemza

Well, it's a kind of ta marbûTa (and it is pronounced) since it's here to distinguish between masculine possessive and feminine. You would say:
هذا الكأس *تاع *عمر but هذي العلبة *تاعت *عمر (glass is masculine while box is feminine).

But in some areas, as Elroy said, it became one word for everything, whatever the gender or the number are. I don't know the situation in the different areas of Algeria though.

@elroy : As far as I know, تاع comes from متاع (which is a name and still being used as a preposition by Tunisians and Libyans) doesn't it?


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## vevooo

Okay that's interesting, thanks for explaining!


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## elroy

Hemza said:


> @elroy : As far as I know, تاع comes from متاع (which is a name and still being used as a preposition by Tunisians and Libyans) doesn't it?


 I think the origin of all of these is تابع.  In some dialects it became بتاع through metathesis, which may have further mutated into متاع in some dialects.  تاع in Algerian may be a result of dropping the م in متاع, or dropping the ب in بتاع.


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## djara

elroy said:


> In some dialects, like Syrian, the gender distinction has been lost and now there's only one form


This also the case for Tunisian. Most people say mtaa3 and some people say ntaa3.


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## tounsi51

@djara

In Algeria, beli means elli اللي


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## djara

tounsi51 said:


> In Algeria, beli means elli اللي


Thanks. In that case, what's the overall meaning of the sentence?


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## Hemza

elroy said:


> I think the origin of all of these is تابع.  In some dialects it became بتاع through metathesis, which may have further mutated into متاع in some dialects.  تاع in Algerian may be a result of dropping the م in متاع, or dropping the ب in بتاع.



I disagree on this point. Since the word متاع exists in Arabic and means the belongings (as far as I know) why "تابع" would which means "follower" (اسم فاعل of تبع right?) be the source for the possessive preposition of many dialects?


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## elroy

Three reasons why تابع is more convincing than متاع:

1.) The expression الـ* التابع لـ* is common and still used in MSA and in colloquial Arabic to mean "the * _that goes with _*".  I've never come across  الـ* متاع *.

2.) As far as I know most dialects that have a third consonant have ب rather than م, so it's more plausible that ب would have changed to م in a few dialects, as opposed to م changing to ب in a whole bunch.

3.) How would متاع explain the fact that it inflects in some dialects?  In Palestinian we have تبع، تبعت، تبعون، تبعات.  Sound changes and other linguistic changes usually involve making things simpler, not more complicated.  Also, متاع would mean a highly complex process (متاع > بتاع > بتع > تبع > تبع/تبعت/تبعون/تبعات) whereas with تابع all we need to posit is the dropping of a single letter (تابع/تابعة/تابعون/تابعات > تبع/تبعت/تبعون/تبعات).  Generally speaking, the simpler, more elegant possibilities are preferred in etymology.

I hope I've convinced you.


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## Hemza

You almost achieved to convince me . If you allow me to expose another hypothesis I thought about while reading your post: may be, some prepositions as the one used
في الشام (تبع/تاع) might be borrowed from تابع while متاع/نتاع/تاع from متاع? After all, the preposition used differ according to the dialect(s) brought by the tribes who settled and/or arabised the area? Would it be a plausible explanation? If not, you would really have achieved to convince me يا أستاذ


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## Hemza

tounsi51 said:


> @djara
> 
> In Algeria, beli means elli اللي



Are you sure? I always thought it means "بإن". Even in the sentence of the song, it makes sense: "باينة بإنه ماشي قابل"


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## elroy

Hemza said:


> Would it be a plausible explanation?


 It's hypothetically _possible_, but I don't know if it's _plausible_ (see #1 and #3 above ).


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## Hemza

elroy said:


> It's hypothetically _possible_, but I don't know if it's _plausible_ (see #1 and #3 above ).



You've convinced me but still, I leave a small place to my hypothesis to allow it to exist


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## tounsi51

The caption part:


djara said:


> Thanks. In that case, what's the overall meaning of the sentence?



it's obvious that he/it doesn't accept it according to the temptation of his ear



Hemza said:


> Are you sure? I always thought it means "بإن". Even in the sentence of the song, it makes sense: "باينة بإنه ماشي قابل"



yes sure, but i was explaining djara in dialect not in fos7a. At leat in Tunisia we will say elli instead of belli


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## Aloulu

This must be Eastern Algerian, more understandable for me as a Tunisian. Something important in this sentence is this phrase commonly used:

_La tentation_*ta3 wednou bayna beli machi 9abel*
*
"ta3" wednou *is an expression we often use to say that something is "rubbish" ("from my ear" literally)...or that your NOT fond of it. "Ki wednou" (like his ear) is also often used. 
So in this case it says "the temptation that is none-existent (no temptation at all) "bayna b-illi mosh qaabel" from someone who's not into it/doesnt want to (listen)."

beli we do use it sometimes in Tunisia and it is made up in dialect of "bi" and "illi".

For example: "al far9 (farq) billi my7ebech yemchi w billi y7eb houa ano" (the difference between the one who doesnt want to go and the one who does is that..."


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## tounsi51

^We are not sure about that and you are only supposing. You may be wrong, I don't think they say machi in Eastern Algeria

*
bayna beli machi 9abel
*
But in Tunisia we would day: dhahar elli ma ye9belch

Beli also comes before a name: bayan belli houwa/Mohamed machi chbeb


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## Zoghbi

Hemza said:


> Well, it's a kind of ta marbûTa (and it is pronounced) since it's here to distinguish between masculine possessive and feminine. You would say:
> هذا الكأس *تاع *عمر but هذي العلبة *تاعت *عمر (glass is masculine while box is feminine).
> 
> But in some areas, as Elroy said, it became one word for everything, whatever the gender or the number are. I don't know the situation in the different areas of Algeria though.



Indeed the situation is not uniform in Algeria, everywhere enta3/ta3 have a plurial form : tawe3 تاوع  or tow3 توع depending regions.
The feminine  form (تاعة) on the other hand is definitly a feature of westerns rurals dialects.


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