# He is an Arab / he is Arab



## Hese

Hello there,

I've been wondering for quite some time how I should translate the French sentence "il est arabe" into English.

I understand that Arabic refers to the language, so if you say 'he is Arabic', you mean 'il est arabophone'. So I suppose I can't say "he is Arab", right?

My suggestion is: He is an Arab.

Am I right?

Thank you!


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## Argyll

Hi,

Your suggestion is correct.

Arabophone = Arabic-speaking, not just Arabic.


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## Squiggle

This can be a delicate one, but generally if you are talking about people's ethnic background you would "He is French, Indian etc." Since you can't say "Arabic" because it has a different meaning, you can simply say "He is Arab". To say "he is an Arab" can have a pejorative connotation unless it is in a context such as "He is an Arab lawyer".

Not sure I'm being helpful!


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## Hese

So I can say "he is Arab" ?


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## Padraig

I don't think _Arabic_ is limited to referring to the language, any more that _French_ or _English_ is. If somebody said to me _He is Arabic_ it would not jar. That said, I think _He is an Arab_ is fine, and more common.

But would you say _Thomas is English, Yves is French, and Asif is an Arab?_ To my mind, that would strike a bad note.

There is a further complication -- the definition of what it is to be an Arab. Given their wide geographic distribution and arguable ethnic diversity, the factor that seems to define Arabs is that they are Arabic-speaking.


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## Squiggle

I think the distinction I would make is that "He is Arab" simply defines an ethnic origin rather than a nationality. He is Arab can be a French/English/Irishman of Arab origin. To say "He is an Arab" more implies he is from an Arab country. It works better if you think of "He is Indian" as opposed to "He is an Indian". So really it is context again.


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## broglet

'He's an Arab' could sound pejorative - 'He is Arabic' sounds intrinsically more respectful. You could also say 'He is Arabian' - which sounds positively exotic.

By the way, not all Arabic speakers are Arabic, any more than all French speakers are French.


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## Keith Bradford

Hese said:


> So I can say "he is Arab" ?


 
You could, but I wouldn't.


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## broglet

Keith Bradford said:


> You could, but I wouldn't.


 neither would I - again, it could sound disrespectful


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## Cath.S.

How is_ he is Arab_ more disrespectful than _he is Chinese_ or _he is American_?


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## L'irlandais

egueule said:


> How is_ he is Arab_ more disrespectful than _he is Chinese_ or _he is American_?


 agree with you.  See here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab, there's no negative connotation in the word Arab, in itself.


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## polaire

He's Arab.  I'm not aware of any pejorative dimension to the word itself.

Many Muslims as well as Arabs can read Arabic.

Not all Muslims are Arabs.

Some Arabs are Christians.

His family is of Arab origin.


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## JeanDeSponde

Fascinating discussion...
It reminds me of how, in France, _arabe_, meaning usually _of Algerian / Tunisian / Moroccan origin_ because of French history, became pejorative, "disrespectful" as you say, and was replaced by _maghrébin_ - which is now even more "disrespectful"...

Like Egueule, I wonder why _he's Arab_ would be disrespectful - and why, supposing it were, _he's an Arab_ would be nicer_. _


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## polaire

JeanDeSponde said:


> Fascinating discussion...
> It reminds me of how, in France, _arabe_, meaning usually _of Algerian / Tunisian / Moroccan origin_ because of French history, became pejorative, "disrespectful" as you say, and was replaced by _maghrébin_ - which is now even more "disrespectful"...
> 
> Like Egueule, I wonder why _he's Arab_ would be disrespectful - and why, supposing it were, [*I]he's an Arab[/i] would be nicer. *



I'm similarly perplexed.  Using the formulation "S/he's a(n) __," especially applied to "outsiders" or members of non-mainstream or non-majority groups, makes the individual sound even more "Other" (from the point of view of the speaker, of course.)

Compare:

He's black. [The usual way we'd describe someone of African/Caribbean origin.]
He's a black person. [This sounds like the person speaking has been living in a hole. Very ignorant sounding.] 

He's Chinese.
He's a Chinese. [Again, sounds very weird.]

He's Latino. She's Latina.
He's a Latino.  She's a Latina. [The first probably would be preferred.]


He's Native American.
He's a Native American.  [Ditto.]  

Exception: 
--This scholarship fund is reserved for Native Americans. 
--Great.  Joe is a Native American. (Although "Joe's Native American" would be just fine here, too.)

In sum, saying someone is "a(n) ___" tends to stress the "Otherness."  I would avoid it.


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## Argyll

I posted very early on in this thread, and what has happened since then is a surprise. I simply thought of it as a grammatical issue, and seemed to have noticed that when a word can be both an adjective and a noun, English often preferred to treat it as a noun.


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## Hese

Ok, so to sum it up, grammatically speaking I can say "he is Arab" or "He is Arabic".
But I can only say "he speaks Arabic", "he speaks Arab" is wrong.

Arabic can be a person from Arab countries and the language as well.

Do you agree with this summary?


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## polaire

Hese said:


> Ok, so to sum it up, grammatically speaking I can say "he is Arab" or "He is Arabic".
> But I can only say "he speaks Arabic", "he speaks Arab" is wrong.
> 
> Arabic can be a person from Arab countries and the language as well.
> 
> Do you agree with this summary?



I don't think you can say "He is Arabic."  Whatever the past usage, I think that Arabic is reserved for the language.  At least that's the impression I got when I looked it up on an online dictionary.


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## Argyll

polaire said:


> I think that Arabic is reserved for the language.



I agree.


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## Padraig

polaire said:


> I don't think you can say "He is Arabic."  Whatever the past usage, I think that Arabic is reserved for the language.  At least that's the impression I got when I looked it up on an online dictionary.



I disagree. As a noun, _Arabic _refers to the language. As an adjective, however, it has a wider range of application, including this representative definition from thefreedictionary.com: "Of or relating to Arabia, the Arabs, their language, or their culture."

When we say _He is Arabic_ we are using the adjective, not the noun.

We treat _French_ in similar fashion.


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## wildan1

_Arabic_ in AE is only used for the language

People are _Arabs_, be they Muslim, Christian or even Jewish...

Their culture, cuisine and literature also is _Arab._

I personally don't find _he's an Arab_ anything but grammatically and factually correct.

But many of these phrases are contextually loaded--nothing to do really with grammar!


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## polaire

wildan1 said:


> _Arabic_ in AE is only used for the language
> 
> People are _Arabs_, be they Muslim, Christian or even Jewish...
> 
> Their culture, cuisine and literature also is _Arab._
> 
> I personally don't find _he's an Arab_ anything but grammatically and factually correct.
> *
> But many of these phrases are contextually loaded--nothing to do really with grammar!*



Yes, but context is critical in learning a language and I don't think that "He's an Arab" comes off the same way as "He's an Englishman."


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## timpeac

Wow, what a strange thread! Like others, I can't say I was aware of this polemic. I would have said "he's an Arab" without reflexion and certainly without meaning offence - so I certainly hope such a phrase doesn't sometimes cause it.

I'm not sure of the reasons behind it but saying the two phrases to myself, I'm sure I'd be much more likely to say that than "he's Arab". That looks almost wrong to me in fact.


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## wildan1

timpeac said:


> Wow, what a strange thread! Like others, I can't say I was aware of this polemic. I would have said "he's an Arab" without reflexion and certainly without meaning offence - so I certainly hope such a phrase doesn't sometimes cause it.
> 
> I'm not sure of the reasons behind it but saying the two phrases to myself, I'm sure I'd be much more likely to say that than "he's Arab". That looks almost wrong to me in fact.


 
Well,timpeac, _" arabe "_ has in European French taken on a sort of pejorative meaning. 

My reply to this is that it's not a universal pejorative meaning, and certainly in English (which is much more widely spoken and understood in the Islamic world outside of North Africa) no one would think of it as anything but a direct description of somone's cultural roots.


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## Squiggle

Whether it's defendable on a grammatical front or not, I can't think of a single time when I've heard someone say, in normal conversation: "He's Arabic."


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## Cath.S.

Wildan1 said:
			
		

> Well,timpeac, _" arabe "_ has in European French taken on a sort of pejorative meaning.


Simply because many French and Belgian people are (often self-proclaimed, btw) _racists._


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## polaire

egueule said:


> Simply because many French and Belgian people are (often self-proclaimed, btw) _racists._



There are plenty of anti-Arab bigots in America, too, esp. since 9/11.  That's why I was so careful to point out that there is a nuance between "He's Arab" and "He's _an_ Arab." The second for some people does carry the implication, hein, he's different from us.  

And it has nothing to do with Arab self-pride, as someone suggested earlier, but on how some Americans use the language.  I'm embarrassed to say this, but America is country where there are people who still think that Barack Obama is a Muslim, and that all Muslims are in league with Osama bin Laden.


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## the-quality-man-4

Squiggle said:


> This can be a delicate one, but generally if you are talking about people's ethnic background you would "He is French, Indian etc." Since you can't say "Arabic" because it has a different meaning, you can simply say "He is Arab". To say "he is an Arab" can have a pejorative connotation unless it is in a context such as "He is an Arab lawyer".
> 
> Not sure I'm being helpful!


And "arabic"is only used for the language.


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## polaire

the-quality-man-4 said:


> And "arabic"is only used for the language.



I agree with your comment and the one you quoted.  Usually, when you say someone is "a(n) [non-mainstream ethnic group]," it's perceived as going out of your way to stress that the person does not belong. You only use that form when necessary for special clarification.  "He is an Arab lawyer" or even, "He's a lawyer of Arab origin."

America is supposed to be the land of inclusion and tolerance.  Careful speakers try not to use language that is excluding, even subconsciously so.


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## JeanDeSponde

polaire said:


> America is supposed to be the land of inclusion and tolerance.  Careful speakers try not to use language that is excluding, even subconsciously so.


The whole point is - why would _he's a German lawyer_ not be perceived as excluding, while _he's an Arab lawyer_ seems to be an itch for some mouths?...


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## Hese

So I can say either "He is Arab" and "He is Arabic" - you all agree on this, right?


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## Angle O'Phial

I think you can use _He is Arab_ (where Arab is an adjective) and _He is an Arab_ (where Arab is a noun) pretty much interchangeably. The confusion arises here because the adjective and noun have the same form. If we take another example where the form changes, it is clear that either _He is a Jew_ (noun) or _He is Jewish_ (adjective) are acceptable.

However, _Arabic_ is, for me, reserved for the language and cannot be used to describe people, i.e. _He is Arab but doesn't speak Arabic_

The OED more or less agrees with me





			
				OED said:
			
		

> *Arabic* Of or pertaining to Arabia or its language. arabic numerals: the figures 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.


 and all the quotations are about the language or arabic numerals.



			
				OED said:
			
		

> *Arab* (n) - One of the Semitic race inhabiting Saudi Arabia and neighbouring countries. _Neither *an* Arab nor Byzantine_
> 
> (adj) Of or pertaining to Arabia or the Arabs. _An Arab maiden brought his food._


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## timpeac

Hese said:


> So I can say either "He is Arab" and "He is Arabic" - you all agree on this, right?


As said above - arabic is for the language. Personally I find "Arab" as an adjective strange too, but clearly from the above American speakers don't. I'm not sure if that is just me therefore or a British - American difference.

Personally I'd say "he's an Arab". After all if you are specifying this fact then it's for a reason (be it polite, racist or otherwise) so I can't see why "he is Arab" would be less offensive than "he's an Arab". If you say "John's doing the work, but remember he's an Arab/he's Arab" then depending on the unknown context that could be very offensive (he's bound to do it wrong for whatever racist reason) or perfectly fine (it's a cultural journalistic piece of work about an Arab country so he may well know a lot more context than some others on the subject).

I think that some people seem to be imputing the difference between "il est arabe" and "c'est un arabe" in French into English. The first is a statement of fact. The second carries nuances unknown that only context could clarify.


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## broglet

I think one of the problems with 'He is Arab/Arabic/an Arab' is that it is rather unclear what it means. Is it a race, a culture or a geographic origin? Both the possibility of pejorative overtones and the ambiguity can be reduced by greater specificity, eg 'He's a Palestininan Arab' or 'He's (a) Saudi Arabian'


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## Squiggle

Arabian, now there's a wonderful word. What a pity we don't say "He's Arabian" any more, conjures up such a desperately romantic, exotic image!


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## seadew

I think Arabic is also used for numerals, at least it was way back when.
Arabian is also used for horses.
He's Arab and he's an Arab both sound fine to me (He's Scottish, He's a Scott)
Cheers to all, this is an interesting post


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## the-quality-man-4

It can said that"you are an Arabian guy/girl".


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## wildan1

the-quality-man-4 said:


> It can said that"you are an Arabian guy/girl".


 
_Arabian_ is for horses and gulfs, not people

_Are you (an) Arab?_

Possible answers: 
_Yes, I am_
_No, I'm Druze, Persian, Turkish, etc._

_To be Arab_ is an ethnicity, not a citizenship definition


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## broglet

seadew said:


> I think Arabic is also used for numerals, at least it was way back when.
> Arabian is also used for horses.
> He's Arab and he's an Arab both sound fine to me (He's Scottish, He's a Scott Scot)
> Cheers to all, this is an  interesting post


 
Great Scott! Not all Scots are novelists.  

Arabic is indeed used for the numerals 1 2 3 etc (which are clear derivatives of the numerals used in Arabic countries) to distinguish them from the roman numerals I II III etc


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## the-quality-man-4

wildan1 said:


> _Arabian_ is for horses and gulfs, not people
> 
> _Are you (an) Arab?_
> 
> Possible answers:
> _Yes, I am_
> _No, I'm Druze, Persian, Turkish, etc._
> 
> _To be Arab_ is an ethnicity, not a citizenship definition


merci beaucoup Wildan1 I didn't know it.


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## blinnith

He's arab = il est arabe
He's an arab = *c'est* un arabe (insistance, souvent péjurative, sur le fait qu'il est arabe)
on voit bien les exemples donnés dans cet article (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_09/014841.php)
1/ "Rush Limbaugh baselessly asserted of Sen. Barack Obama: "Do you know he has not one shred of African-American blood?" Limbaugh continued: "*He's Arab*. You know, he's from Africa. He's from Arab parts of Africa.... e's not African-American. The last thing that he is is African-American."" 
2/ "Well, if Rush Limburger Cheese can claim that Obama is *an Arab*, may I, by the same mysterious logic, point out that Limburger Cheese is an African secret agent sent here by dictator Robert Mugabe to infiltrate the minds of thoughtful people who listen faithfully to the Limburger Cheese show and turn them into anti-American fifth columnists?"
1/ vient de l'article (une citation), et 2/ vient d'un commentaire.


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## Angle O'Phial

*Blinnith*, je ne suis pas d'accord. On ne peut pas dire que _He's an Arab_ a forcément une connotation péjorative ou bien un sens bien différent de _He's Arab_. Les deux veulent dire la même chose. La difficulté ici vient du fait qu'on a un nom et un adjectif qui s'écrivent de la même façon. Si l'on prend _Scottish_ et _a Scot_ (#35) ou _Jewish_ et _a Jew_ (#31) ou quoi que ce soit, on voit très bien que les deux phrases _He is an X_ and _He is Xish_ ont exactement le même sens.


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## blinnith

Angle O'Phial said:


> *Blinnith*, je ne suis pas d'accord. On ne peut pas dire que _He's an Arab_ a forcément une connotation péjorative ou bien un sens bien différent de _He's Arab_. Les deux veulent dire la même chose. La difficulté ici vient du fait qu'on a un nom et un adjectif qui s'écrivent de la même façon. Si l'on prend _Scottish_ et _a Scot_ (#35) ou _Jewish_ et _a Jew_ (#31) ou quoi que ce soit, on voit très bien que les deux phrases _He is an X_ and _He is Xish_ ont exactement le même sens.



Justement, je n'ai pas dit que la connotation était forcément péjorative !
Seulement 'souvent'.

Utiliser le "an" met une emphase sur le terme "arab", ou plus fortement 'objectise' la personne, la catégorise, qui peut soit être explicité juste après par un complément de phrase, soit laissé tel quel. Le 'He' est moins important que le 'arab'.
Alors que pour "He's arab", arab n'est qu'une particularisation de 'He'
toute la différence entre un adjectif (la personne à une particularité), et une catégorisation (la personne n'est pas vu en tant que personne, elle est réduite à une catégorie).
Et cela n'est pas toujours innocent.

L'autre différence vient du fait que tous les gens parlant anglais sont influencé par l'usage des pronoms dans leur langue maternelle, et auront plus tendance à utiliser le 'an' que quelqu'un d'autre: un français par exemple aura une tendance naturelle a mettre systématiquement le 'an', car on fait comme ça en français.

Exemple non péjuratif du deuxieme usage (http://www.interfaithfamily.com/rel...ab-Jewish_Romance_in_the_Negev_Desert.shtml):
"A car pulled up, and three men jumped out, surrounding me and my friend, shouting at us in Arabic and threatening us. My friend, also an Arab, spoke to one of them calmly in Arabic. "Oh, it's okay!" that man shouted to the other two men. I knew enough Arabic to understand what he was yelling: "It's okay, *he's an Arab! He's an Arab*, lay off!" The other two men backed off of me. Wishing my friend well, all three men jumped into their car and drove away. I could not stop shaking for the next half hour."
(le narrateur est juif)
Le 'an' permet de ne plus désigner une personne, mais de la reconnaitre comme faisant partie d'une catégorie, qui fait qu'on ne la remet plus en cause à partir du moment ou on l'a catégorisée.
"L'ami du juif" n'est plus menaçant, il n'est plus "l'ami du juif": il est reconnu comme faisant parti de la catégorie arabe, et en tant que tel, ne représente donc plus un ennemi/danger, quelque soit la personne en elle même.

Cette distinction existe dans tous les usages, en francais et en anglais, meme si on ne s'en apercoit pas toujours consciemment.


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## seadew

Elegant, but I don't buy it! However, because it is no longer politically correct to use the noun Jew, we now prefer the 'He's Jewish' formulation in this case. Otherwise, the only difference I feel after speaking and teaching this language my whole life is in the eye of the beholder or behind the eye of the speaker. 
Cheers


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## gillyfr

I would just like to add that any use of the indefinite article with either an ethnicity or a nationality/citizenship makes the person referred to into an object, i.e objectifies him/her.

This is actually also true for other uses of the indefinite article relating to people. Take, for example, "What do you do?"
Compare the answers, "I practise law" (conjures up images of doing, of pleading cases, searching through books etc), and "I'm a lawyer" (stereotypical images of money-grabbers, perhaps?).

Similarly, "He's a Frenchman/Englishman/Chinaman/German/Spaniard/American" will usually have an implicit meaning, loaded with stereotypes, whereas "He's French/English/Chinese/German/Spanish/American" does not necessarily. Same also goes for 'gay' vs. 'a homosexual' and 'black' vs. 'a black man'.

To seadew (whose message I saw oly after I posted mine), this has nothing to do with so-called political correctness, and everything to do with treating people like people. Just because we used to do such and such a thing doesn't make it right and necessary to perpetuate.


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## seadew

Objectifies? 'Is' is a copulative verb. 'I teach', or 'I'm a teacher'.Do you feel some deep down hidden change of meaning towards something pejorative? 'I'm Chinese' I'm a Chinese citizen." There is no doubt that the word Arab functions as both a noun and an adjective as has already been mentioned but what casts any noun in a pejorative light? I cannot believe it's grammar!
I would be interested in your sources for the rule you cite in line one. (# 44). Cheers


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## polaire

gillyfr said:


> I would just like to add that any use of the indefinite article with either an ethnicity or a nationality/citizenship makes the person referred to into an object, i.e objectifies him/her.
> 
> This is actually also true for other uses of the indefinite article relating to people. Take, for example, "What do you do?"
> Compare the answers, "I practise law" (conjures up images of doing, of pleading cases, searching through books etc), and "I'm a lawyer" (stereotypical images of money-grabbers, perhaps?).
> 
> Similarly, "He's a Frenchman/Englishman/Chinaman/German/Spaniard/American" will usually have an implicit meaning, loaded with stereotypes, whereas "He's French/English/Chinese/German/Spanish/American" does not necessarily. Same also goes for 'gay' vs. 'a homosexual' and 'black' vs. 'a black man'.



As a person with a J.D. (Juris Doctor -- American law degree), I must protest!    (I actually am not terribly fond of lawyers myself.)  In any event, I agree with what you say about "objectification" (excellent word choice), with the following clarifications:

--I think the effect is much worse with groups that are "disfavored" or nonmainstream.  People have enough information about the French and the English for the impact of "He's a Frenchman" to be muted.  Now if someone's says, "He's typically French"...followed by a stereotype, that's different.

--In the US. you CANNOT say "Chinaman,"  it's considered offensive.  It's not on the same level as the "N-word," but "Chinese" is the accepted term today.

--"Spaniard" sounds dated, plus some people incorrectly use it to refer to anyone who speaks Spanish.  In the U.S. there are many people from Latin America and the Caribbean.  They do not like to be called "Spanish."  They have their own cultural identity.


As someone with a legal and journalism background who also is a minority and a woman I may be more sensitive to these distinctions than others.  But all major American publications have "Stylebooks" that address the issue of offensive terminology.  They constantly have to be updated.  In general conversation, these issues are frequently discussed.  In a country that prides itself on its diversity and is part of a global economy it's rather important.

This is an issue in Europe as well.  If you want to see [one of many] movie treatments, there's a critical scene in _L'Auberge Espagnole. _ 

It's not going away.


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## polaire

seadew said:


> Objectifies? 'Is' is a copulative verb. 'I teach', or 'I'm a teacher'.Do you feel some deep down hidden change of meaning towards something pejorative? 'I'm Chinese' I'm a Chinese citizen." There is no doubt that the word Arab functions as both a noun and an adjective as has already been mentioned but what casts any noun in a pejorative light? I cannot believe it's grammar!
> I would be interested in your sources for the rule you cite in line one. (# 44). Cheers



A famous American jurist wrote:

_The life of the law has not been logic, it has been experience.
_
The same goes for language.

You have to consider the cultural context in which words are used.


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## polaire

timpeac said:


> As said above - arabic is for the language. Personally I find "Arab" as an adjective strange too, but clearly from the above American speakers don't. I'm not sure if that is just me therefore or a British - American difference.
> 
> Personally I'd say "he's an Arab". After all if you are specifying this fact then it's for a reason (be it polite, racist or otherwise) so I can't see why "he is Arab" would be less offensive than "he's an Arab". If you say "John's doing the work, but remember he's an Arab/he's Arab" then depending on the unknown context that could be very offensive (he's bound to do it wrong for whatever racist reason) or perfectly fine (it's a cultural journalistic piece of work about an Arab country so he may well know a lot more context than some others on the subject).
> 
> I think that some people seem to be imputing the difference between "il est arabe" and "c'est un arabe" in French into English. The first is a statement of fact. The second carries nuances unknown that only context could clarify.



I would be more likely to refer to the country someone comes from than to say s/he is "Arab."

By the way, throughout this conversation I haven't been able to get out of my mind the first real French novel that most English speakers read:  _L'Etranger. _ I've read it several times.  Although it's still a very powerful novel, it's hard to get past Camus's portrayal of the Arabs.  He really doesn't see them as human and I truly think it's his view, not just that of the protagonist.


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## gillyfr

seadew said:


> Objectifies? 'Is' is a copulative verb. 'I teach', or 'I'm a teacher'.Do you feel some deep down hidden change of meaning towards something pejorative? 'I'm Chinese' I'm a Chinese citizen." There is no doubt that the word Arab functions as both a noun and an adjective as has already been mentioned but what casts any noun in a pejorative light? I cannot believe it's grammar!
> I would be interested in your sources for the rule you cite in line one. (# 44). Cheers



Well actually, I'm Chinese, but I'm not a Chinese citizen, nor was I ever, and I'm certainly not 'a Chinaman', for example.

You are right that it is not grammar that casts a noun in a negative light, it is people's beliefs. However word usage and meaning, whether positive or negative are inextricably linked, and there is a definite link between the use of an indefinite article with an ethnicity (but also sexual orientation) and a bid (conscious or not) to 'otherise' that person.

Such constructions should therefore be avoided if we wish to be inclusive ourselves, and to educate others on how to be inclusive. It is not a rule, but my sources are many, many documents on institutional and systemic discrimination, too numerous to mention.


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## polaire

seadew said:


> Elegant, but I don't buy it! However, because it is no longer politically correct to use the noun Jew, we now prefer the 'He's Jewish' formulation in this case. Otherwise, the only difference I feel after speaking and teaching this language my whole life is in the eye of the beholder or behind the eye of the speaker.
> Cheers



"Jew" sounded stark to me.  Then I realized that many Jews prefer "I am a Jew" to "I'm Jewish."  It doesn't come up often, but I use both.

If you're a minority, a woman, or in some group that's disempowered or non-mainstream, your existence *is* defined by the majority group.  That's why these words matter.


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## Angle O'Phial

*gillyfr*, you've just added another complication to the story. In your case, Chinese has two meanings, "from China" and "of Chinese descent". In the case of Arab, a pan-national term, there is only the descent meaning. A Canadian could very well be (an) Arab or Chinese. However, she could not be a Scot, only Scottish; and so forth...

I agree, by the way, that Chinaman is depricated (à éviter !!), but it doesn't seem to me that Arab (noun) has reached that state. Other national nouns which differ from the adjectival forms, like Frenchman, Englishman, Spaniard, Dane, etc., although not at all offensive to my ear*, also seem to be falling out of common usage. However, the majority of national nouns which mirror the adjectival form seem to be doing fine, a Canadian, an American, a German, a Nigerian, etc.

* provided that the Frenchman or Englishman in question is indeed a man. I certainly wouldn't used Englishmen for a mixed group.


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## pdmx

I was just thinking the difficulty about this subject is made worse by Arab being an ethnicity rather than a nationality. So I was trying to find other similar examples and I thought of Slavs for instance (less prejudiced-against than Arab people ???, so less undertones ??).

En français en tous cas on dirait _il est slave_, ou _d'origine slave_, sous-entendant 'je ne sais plus exactement de quel pays mais de cette région du globe'. Pas de connotation raciste ni de jugement dans cette seule phrase. Elle est neutre, descriptive.

En revanche si on reprend l'exemple cité par timpeac :

Originally Posted by *timpeac* 


> If you say "John's doing the work, but remember he's an Arab/he's Arab" then depending on the unknown context that could be very offensive (he's bound to do it wrong for whatever racist reason) or perfectly fine (it's a cultural journalistic piece of work about an Arab country so he may well know a lot more context than some others on the subject).


 
cela donne quelque chose du style : _C'est Jules qui s'en charge, mais il est slave / c'est un slave_
Les 2 formes sont possibles. Le sous-entendu est effectivement qu'en tant que slave il possède certaines caractéristiques qui peuvent s'apparenter à une forme de préjugés ou de racisme.
*Toutefois c'est le contexte* (emploi du _mais.._) qui met en avant ces sous-entendus et non pas la forme grammaticale.

_C'est un slave_ utilisé seul appelle le sous-entendu (positif ou négatif), n'est pas neutre et purement descriptif. Dans ce sens je rejoins finalement l'avis de blinnith dans le message 42

Originally Posted by *blinnith* 


> Utiliser le "an" met une emphase sur le terme "arab", ou plus fortement 'objectise' la personne, la catégorise, qui peut soit être explicité juste après par un complément de phrase, soit laissé tel quel. Le 'He' est moins important que le 'arab'.
> Alors que pour "He's arab", arab n'est qu'une particularisation de 'He'
> toute la différence entre un adjectif (la personne à une particularité), et une catégorisation (la personne n'est pas vu en tant que personne, elle est réduite à une catégorie).


 
C'est moins évident je trouve de sentir cette différence (en français) lorsque l'adjectif et le substantif sont strictement identiques (comme _arabe_), ou lorsque le terme recouvre une nationalité (comme _français, chinois_.. )

Qu'en est-il pour l'anglais ??? aux natifs de le dire !!


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## L'irlandais

Padraig said:


> ...When we say _He is Arabic_ we are using the adjective, not the noun...


Hello Padraig,
I tend to agree with the others here.  That is "He's an Arab, He speaks Arabic."  I could imagine using the adjective in the following manner :  I know that man, he is an arabic man.  But then this with probaly mean that he comes from the Arabian peninsula, whereas the Arab world is much broader than just that. 
That's my take on the matter, for what it's worth.


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## timpeac

Angle O'Phial said:


> *gillyfr*, you've just added another complication to the story. In your case, Chinese has two meanings, "from China" and "of Chinese descent". In the case of Arab, a pan-national term, there is only the descent meaning. A Canadian could very well be (an) Arab or Chinese. However, she could not be a Scot, only Scottish; and so forth...
> 
> I agree, by the way, that Chinaman is depricated (à éviter !!), but it doesn't seem to me that Arab (noun) has reached that state. Other national nouns which differ from the adjectival forms, like Frenchman, Englishman, Spaniard, Dane, etc., although not at all offensive to my ear*, also seem to be falling out of common usage. However, the majority of national nouns which mirror the adjectival form seem to be doing fine, a Canadian, an American, a German, a Nigerian, etc.
> 
> * provided that the Frenchman or Englishman in question is indeed a man. I certainly wouldn't used Englishmen for a mixed group.


I wonder if it is this north American tendancy to use a country adjective to mean the person in question is of that descent that is influencing the general dislike of the noun form. 

It would be odd in England, I think, for someone whose grandparents were Chinese but they had grown up here describe themselves as "Chinese" (or "Irish" or "Italian" etc). If someone says "I'm Italian" they almost certainly mean they were born there (or if not that they neverless relate so strongly with Italy that "Italian" would be their principal sense of identity). Consequently I think that for us there is very little difference in nuance between using a country adjective or noun form.

In the cases where a "special" noun form exists, different from the adjective, I think that these are becoming less usual but far from quaint (you can certainly hear "Spaniard", "Frenchman", "Englishman" and yes even "Chinaman" - as long as you are talking about citizens of the respective countries). I find very little to pick between the times when the adjective is also used as a noun (he's an Australian/he's Australian).

So within this context to bring it back to the specific case of he is an Arab/he is Arab I see very little nuance between the two but wonder if the strong "he's Arab" preference of some comes from the US English, or US English influenced, tendency to avoid using noun forms for all groups. This being because for the citizens of a young country with many immigrants the question of who was born where and who considers themselves to have what nationality can be a very sticky and delicate one. In American English this can always be avoided by using the adjective, but not in British English where saying something like "he's Chinese" means "he's from China" anyway.


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## gillyfr

> I wonder if it is this north American tendancy to use a country adjective to mean the person in question is of that decent that is influencing the general dislike of the noun form.
> 
> It would be odd in England, I think, for someone whose grandparents were Chinese but they had grown up here describe themselves as "Chinese" (or "Irish" or "Italian" etc). If someone says "I'm Italian" they almost certainly mean they were born there (or if not that they neverless relate so strongly with Italy that "Italian" would be their principal sense of identity). Consequently I think that for us there is very little difference in nuance between using a country adjective or noun form.



Nice theory, but not so, I'm afraid. I am in fact from your side of the pond despite where I live, as evidenced by "native language: English England" in my mini profile.

I personally knew people in England who did identify as Irish even though it was their parents who were born there, and ditto for Italian. But more than anything, I identify as chinese (which I like to write with a small 'c' to differentiate from the nationality), in answer to the question every person of colour is over-familiar with "what are you?" (note again the objectification). That is if I am feeling magnanimous that day. On others, you might get short shrift instead.



> In American English this can always be avoided by using the adjective, but not in British English where saying something like "he's Chinese" means "he's from China" anyway.



It absolutely could be used in British English as well, and in fact is. "He's Chinese" does not necessarily mean "he's from China" in Britain. In fact, in the vast majority of cases where this is used by people speaking, they are probably referring to someone they know who is of Chinese origin. They may think that person comes from China, but that would illustrate their ignorance as to where chinese people in Britain have historically come from. My brother tells me some of his friends call him "Chinese [first name]". He doesn't mind, (although I am horrified), but whatever, it clearly shows that they don't do so because they think he's from China. With his regional accent and ways, he'S obviously English - but his face is not.


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## timpeac

gillyfr said:


> Nice theory, but not so, I'm afraid. I am in fact from your side of the pond despite where I live, as evidenced by "native language: English England" in my mini profile.
> 
> I personally knew people in England who did identify as Irish even though it was their parents who were born there, and ditto for Italian. But more than anything, I identify as chinese (which I like to write with a small 'c' to differentiate from the nationality), in answer to the question every person of colour is over-familiar with "what are you?" (note again the objectification). That is if I am feeling magnanimous that day. On others, you might get short shrift instead.
> 
> 
> 
> It absolutely could be used in British English as well, and in fact is. "He's Chinese" does not necessarily mean "he's from China" in Britain. In fact, in the vast majority of cases where this is used by people speaking, they are probably referring to someone they know who is of Chinese origin. They may think that person comes from China, but that would illustrate their ignorance as to where chinese people in Britain have historically come from. My brother tells me some of his friends call him "Chinese [first name]". He doesn't mind, (although I am horrified), but whatever, it clearly shows that they don't do so because they think he's from China. With his regional accent and ways, he'S obviously English - but his face is not.


But I don't think we're disagreeing so much here. I also know people born in the UK who would call themselves, Irish or Italian etc - I didn't preclude that I just said it means that they consider that to be the nationality they most identify with. In the cases where they don't particularly identify primarily with that nationality I can't say I've ever heard it. Someone, in my experience, when asked about their dark hair, skin and eyes might say "oh my maternal grandparents came from Spain" but not "oh I'm Spanish" (unless they really identify with that, they go back to see the family in Spain every Christmas, they have loads of similar cousins etc). If I heard someone with physical features believable of Spain who said "I'm Spanish", even in a cut-glass home counties English accent I would presume that they were from there or that in a very real sense they consider Spain as their main identity. This is very different from the US where someone who has never been to Italy and knows little about it can claim "I'm Italian".

I was aware that what I wrote above might well cause disagreement - it's far too black and white to even get close to describing such a complex situation in two continents - and I'm sure it's not always true but I think it's true enough to say there is a real basic difference between the identification of nationality between the US and UK and this could well influence attitudes on saying "he's Arab" or "he's an Arab". With your brother, yes, I'm sure his friends don't think he was born in China - but equally I expect that they are deliberately giving two fingers to political correctness by doing so, and are fully aware of that.

I do admit that I didn't know that people from China would call themselves "Chinese" here to mean "of Chinese descent" in the US style (I can certainly say I wouldn't do the same in reverse and say something like "oh that Chinese guy over there told me that" - perhaps "Chinese-looking" or "Oriental-looking" if I really wanted to emphasise it - unless I thought he was from China).

I'd like to add that I'm only giving my personal, and therefore necessarily imperfect, impression of the usages in so far as I think it might affect someone's inclination to say "he's Arab" or "he's an Arab" - It's a massively complex, subjectives and emotive area, and certainly not one I have extensive expertise in so I'll probably drop out there!


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## alfombra.voladora

There are many instances where phraseology does not translate well between languages due to culture as much as anything else.

Amongst the people I know who are of "Arab" descent, they do not refer to themselves as "Arabs." They refer to themselves as "Iraqi" or "Jordanian" or "From the Middle East." The Middle East is a fascinating and complex place full of complex people. There are Bedouins, Arabs (who distinguish themselves from nomadic peoples by my informal survey), Iranians/Persians, and descendants of African slaves, among others. I find this to be true amongst my other friends from Peru, India, Israel, Jamaica, etc, that they often identify with their country most strongly, but in case of complexity in geopolitical affairs or the presumed knowledge of the person they're speaking to, they may just refer to the general region they are from - the Caribbean, Latin America, South Asia, etc.


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## Cath.S.

> There are many instances where phraseology does not translate well between languages due to culture as much as anything else


Je suis d'accord sur le principe, mais cette loi générale ne me semble pas s'appliquer ici.


> Amongst the people I know who are of "Arab" descent, they do not refer to themselves as "Arabs."


Just like what people from other continents refer to as Europeans never refer to themselves as being Europeans, but say I'm English, je suis français, Ich bin deutsch etc. it does not necessarily follow that we feel offended if, say, an American uses the term.

Welcome to these forums, by the way.


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