# do you tip in your country?



## mandarina_82

what do you think about tipping? do you think it is right or wrong? is it a little help for workers?
in your country it is not a habit but you think it should be?
you only tip waiters/waitresses?


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## ellas!

In both England and Greece we leave tips. I think it's rude not to. They usually work quite hard and it's nice for them, you know?


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## mandarina_82

it is cultural habit. that's it. what can be cossidered rude in a country is quite normal in other.


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## Mei

Hi there,

I voted sometimes. 

I'm not totally agree in leave tips, I mean, I've been working in a shop for 5 years and I've never recieve any tip, but most of the custumers asked me for a kind of discount. 

I know that there are jobs harder than others, and that's why I leave some tips sometimes but not always. If I'm having a coffe in a bar, I won't give him any tip or maybe less that an € but if I ask for a pizza I give to the delivery man/women more than an €. And this is another question, How much we must give them? I mean, to don't give so much or give little money...

This is an interesting thread, I wonder what you (people of other countries) think about it.

Cheers

Mei

PD: Please if you see any mistake, let me know. I'm a little bit fish today. Thank you!


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## Mei

ellas! said:
			
		

> In both England and Greece we leave tips. I think it's rude not to. They usually work quite hard and it's nice for them, you know?


 
Hi,

I wonder, when you say "They" who are they? what kind of work deserve more tips than another? I think that it's something relative... will be different in other countries, don't you think?

Cheers

Mei


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## VenusEnvy

I'm a little confused by the question: Do you always tip in your country? 

Tip who? It varies here in the USA.

For a related thread, look here. While the title speaks of Mexico, the conversation expanded to many other countries. Bon appetite!


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## BasedowLives

sit down restaurants, yes.   pizza  guys, yes.

most of the people working in the restaurants only make a few  dollars an hour, so they rely on tips.  and pizza guys can "blacklist" you.  if they don't like you, they can put something about you in their computer so when you order it's not on time/cold/pieces missing(seriously has happened).   but that's probably just this one non-chain pizza place where i live...


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## mandarina_82

hehe yeah! the "pizza world" can be a "dangerous mafia"   (just jokking) 

here, in Spain i've heard several times that the tip (%) is supossed to be included in the price you pay, so if it is true, why should you tip twice?


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## josue_ernesto

Tipping is my way of saying you did a good job or not.  When I go to a restaurant, I tip will vary on the service rendered.  For example, if the wait sits you, gets your food, and then never checks on you, that bothers me.  Therefore, their tip would be smaller.  Friends of mine leave without tipping if the service was horrible.  I never leave without giving a tip, partly because the server may think that I just forgot and may not realize that they did a horrible job.  I usually leave an extremely small tip, (like pocket change) in cases like that.  I feel that I am justified in my thinking because I was once a waiter (in a pizzeria no less) and I know how I felt when someone did that to me.  I paid more attention to my next clients after something like that happened.On another note, how do you feel about those stupid tip cups for the cooks that you will always see at the cash register?  That bugs me.  Maybe this is something that you only see here in the US, but I think it's dumb.  The cook's salary is guarenteed.  He doesn't need a tip.


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## mandarina_82

I totally agree with you in everithing, sometimes you can see those tips cups and yes they are stupid and bug.


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## DesertCat

Having waited on tables briefly many years ago and knowing what an awful job it is I almost always tip ~20% in restaurants.  I have been known to stiff the waitperson if the service is excessively rude or poor.  While in Italy last year I'm afraid I still tipped even though I realize it's not necessary.  I didn't feel right about not leaving anything.


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## *Cowgirl*

You always tip (about 15%) at sit down restaurants. You never tip at fast food places where you bus your own table and carry out your own food. You usually tip (a smaller amount) at places where they bring your food out to you.


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## zebedee

It's true that having worked in the trade makes you more aware of tipping or not. 

When we check out of a hotel, my husband usually leaves a few coins on the pillow for the person who cleans the room. He did his stint of Housekeeping in hotels while learning English in Edinburgh and hasn't forgotten the pleasure he used to get from finding the odd tip waiting for him on a pillow.


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## panjandrum

DesertCat said:
			
		

> [...] While in Italy last year I'm afraid I still tipped even though I realize it's not necessary. [...]


I haven't heard that before.  Why is tipping unnecessary in Italy?


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## GenJen54

For even more about in different countries, CLICK HERE.  This issue was discussed quite recently and there is quite a variety of responses.


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## DesertCat

Panj, the tipping situation in Italy is apparently a bit fluid. Most of the native Italians that post on some of the travel forums I've read say it's not necessary and in some cases it's already included on the bill.  If it's not included on the bill then 10% is appropriate (from what I've read).  Waiters are paid reasonable wages in Italy (unlike the US).


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## foxfirebrand

When I'm in a situation where tipping is called for, I always tip, even if the service is bad-- in fact even if it's _very_ bad.  People in the "service sector" are especially prone to having bad days, days that cripple morale-- and not just on the job.  Tipping someone who has done a bad job is beneficial, but it can also be an act of passive-aggression on my part, a way of fighting back-- the recipient knows they didn't deserve a tip, so they take a second look at things and maybe do better next time.

Really bad service gets a scant 10%, maybe a little less-- I'm not talking about leaving two cents, just to make a snotty point.  If the service is anything above adequate, I leave 20%.  I'm not rich, so for really exceptional service I'll find some way of bringing it to the manager or owner's attention.

I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking it was stupid to tip for bad service, and I credit the argument that it only makes matters worse.  When I depended on tips, I did a pretty good job of not letting my bad moods enter the picture-- but I was covering the mortgage, not paying the rent.  Some of my coworkers were ground down by the job a lot worse than I was, and people who took their desperate attitude personally and stiffed them always seemed clueless, arrogant or downright mean.

Just my perspective-- I think moderate overtipping is somewhere in the neighborhood of "casting your bread upon the waters."  Also, it seems like every woman I've ever lived with or been married to has been a waitress-- I'm sure that's another big influence on me.
.


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## Brioche

There is some tipping of waiting staff, porters, valet parkers and the like in Australia in _expensive_ hotels/restaurants. But not elsewhere.

I don't go to pricey restaurants and hotels, so I don't have to worry about tipping.

I must say that I've always found the idea of tipping a percentage of the bill ridiculous.  Why should the waiter get paid $9 to pour a _Schramsberg Reserve California Sparkler_ and $1.20 for a  _Barefoot Bubbly California Champagne?_


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## GenJen54

> I must say that I've always found the idea of tipping a percentage of the bill ridiculous. Why should the waiter get paid $9 to pour a _Schramsberg Reserve California Sparkler_ and $1.20 for a  _Barefoot Bubbly California Champagne?_



I'm not certain about the laws in other states, but in my state, waiters and waitresses who work in those restaurants with actual "sit-down" full service are paid approximately $2.10 per hour in wages.  Minimum wage in my state it is $5.15 per hour. 

The idea is that any tips earned as a reward for service will more than make up for the approximately $3 per hour lost in actual wages.  I am not certain if this applies in other states, or not. 

When I waited tables many years ago, we had to share any tips with the busboys, bartenders and/or cooks.  After the "distribution,'' we then had to pay out approximate taxes.  The net was what we were allowed to take home.


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## Gustavoang

Hi.

In my case, I always tip, except when I get a really bad service. Hoy many do I give? It depends on the place I am and If a fee was already added into my account.

I think tipping is something very common in my country, Venezuela.

Actually, depending on the situation, we use to use an extremely famous phrase: "Dar para los refrescos". Nowaday this phrase has been _improved_ to "Dar para los pollos". This is very colloquial, thus I don't recommend you to use it in a formal conversation.

Common situations to tipping? Besides in restaurants, hotels, and many others, here you got a brief listing of what some poor people do:

When you're on the street and you need to park your car. There's always people taking care of your cars while you do your things. Of course we have parking places ("estacionamientos"), but sometimes there's no one near the place you are at. People use to give them from 0.15 USD (300 bolívares) up to 1 USD (2000 bolívares aprox.).*
When you're on the street and waiting for the traffic lights to turn green, some people clean the windshield of your car. Other persons do acrobatics. People use to give them from 0.15 USD (300 bolívares) up to 1 USD (2000 bolívares aprox.).*
Corrupt public workers, often police officers, use to "pedir para los refrescos/pollos" in order to let you go when you do an illegal activity; many times you're doing everything legal, but they just want to steel. For both cases, we use to use the _colloquial verb_ "matraquear"; for instance "Aquel policía me trató de matraquear". **

* 1 USD = 2150 VEB.
** If this kind of comments are forbidden in this forum, I apologise for that and please send me a PM in order to modify this message.

Why did I mention illegal activities? Because we're talking about tipping in the Cultural Issues forum, and "matraquear" fits good in this context, at least IMHO. BTW, this is something so normal that you don't have to be an expert to know what I said. This is something I'm not pride of.

Let's continue the thread! What does other people have to say about tipping?

Regards!


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## Gustavoang

Brioche said:
			
		

> I must say that I've always found the idea of tipping a percentage of the bill ridiculous.  Why should the waiter get paid $9 to pour a _Schramsberg Reserve California Sparkler_ and $1.20 for a  _Barefoot Bubbly California Champagne?_


Yes, I agree with you regarding that cases. But if a waiter had to get you several things, I think It's OK.


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## me82

things are expensive enough i don't have the money to have all i need... if i had to tip everytime, that'd be a big problem.


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## angela.fan

Maybe it is the reason of different culture and habbit. In china, nobody will tip even in the high-class resturant. But this dosn't mean we don't respect and admire the waiter/waitress.


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## foxfirebrand

me82 said:
			
		

> things are expensive enough i don't have the money to have all i need... if i had to tip everytime, that'd be a big problem.



All you *need?*  I'd sure like to understand how it is that anyone needs to be waited on by others-- hardworking, underpaid workers who don't owe _you_ free labor.  What an attitude.

You're talking about your wants, not your needs.  Confusing necessity with luxury can lead people into contemptible attitudes of entitlement, privilege and greed.  You are talking about engaging the services of people and then not paying them-- I guess to you the service sector is the _servant_ sector.  

If you don't have enough money for all you *need*, maybe all you need is a job.  Waiting tables.
.


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## QUIJOTE

I consider tipping a must, especially when you get good service, 10 to 15% is my personal rule, I don't care if where I am they don't require tipping, there are the situations when I get confused about how much, like in hotels taxi cabs, ballet parking, grocery stores that have baggers, I am just not sure if I give too little they will get offended and then again if I give too much I will look like snob, but in general I think is a compliment when someone says here this is for you thank you. By the way I've been tipped too in my younger days when I worked as a bartender, those tips made a lot of difference at the end of the month.


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## Agnès E.

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> All you *need?* I'd sure like to understand how it is that anyone needs to be waited on by others-- hardworking, underpaid workers who don't owe _you_ free labor. What an attitude.
> 
> You're talking about your wants, not your needs. Confusing necessity with luxury can lead people into contemptible attitudes of entitlement, privilege and greed. You are talking about engaging the services of people and then not paying them-- I guess to you the service sector is the _servant_ sector.
> 
> If you don't have enough money for all you *need*, maybe all you need is a job. Waiting tables.
> .


 
I think this deserves some explanations: in France, we have something called SMIC (a minimum wage imposed by the government) and no one may get a salary inferior to this one. This law is very strict and severely enforced.
Besides, all prices in restaurants, tearooms, cafés, etc. *are given with an included 15% service*. Any time you pay for your meal, you know that 15% of the total amount will be shared between the waiters.
Tips are just some extra money that we, as customers, decide to add to the salary earns by the waiter. Tips are not declared in the taxed income and go directly from our wallet to the waiter's pocket without passing through the income tax declaration.

Therefore, any additional tips directly given to the waiter are a pure acknoledgement of the quality of the service got, they are a sheer decision made by the customer according to his own judgement of the quality of goods and services he got for the money he has already paid.
Besides, restaurants are very expensive in France and, apart from fast-food services, are all submitted to a 19.6% VAT. Which, added to the 15% for service, represent a fair part of the final price for the customer.


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## mandarina_82

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> Besides, all prices in restaurants, tearooms, cafés, etc. *are given with an included 15% service*. Any time you pay for your meal, you know that 15% of the total amount will be shared between the waiters.
> 
> It is the same in Spain. But sometime i wonder if it is true cause witers' wages are so low here in Spain.
> The only case i know u give tips, here in Spain, is when you give extra money to the pizza delivery guy.


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## CLEMENTINE

zebedee said:
			
		

> It's true that having worked in the trade makes you more aware of tipping or not.
> 
> When we check out of a hotel, my husband usually leaves a few coins on the pillow for the person who cleans the room. He did his stint of Housekeeping in hotels while learning English in Edinburgh and hasn't forgotten the pleasure he used to get from finding the odd tip waiting for him on a pillow.


 
It is exactly the same for me. I worked two months as a maid in a hotel for  summer - people left tips on the pillow. That was quite rewarding - meaning I did a good job. I also worked during a year at the reception of a hotel. So now I am always happy to leave tip on my pillow, at the reception, in a restaurant or to a taxi driver when they made a good job.


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## VenusEnvy

Zebeedee and Clementine: Here, it seems, leaving tips on pillows is out-dated. Nowadays, when you enter the hotel, there is an envelope on one of the tables for you with your roomkeeper's name on it, stating that the money in the envelope is for him/her.

I actually don't know what the custom is in this regard. If I stay at a hotel for more than a couple of days, I usually just leave one big tip upon my departure as opposed to a couple of bucks each day.

Does anyone know what's supposed to be done?.....


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## GenJen54

> If I stay at a hotel for more than a couple of days,


 
Venus,

I think tipping one big "lump sum" at the end of a longer stay is the way to go, especially if you are at the type of place where  you are "assigned" as single housekeeper throughout your stay. 

Short stays are a different thing entirely. Many hotels, in an effort to become more "environmentally conscious" (so say the fliers they leave you in your room), now offer "no-service" stays if you are only going to be there for three days or less. 

In such a case, the housekeepers will make up the bed, but sheets will NOT be changed and clean towels will not be changed out.  This is a guest option, of course, but it seems more and more hotels are pushing it.


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## foxfirebrand

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> Tips are just some extra money that we, as customers, decide to add to the salary earns by the waiter. Tips are not declared in the taxed income and go directly from our wallet to the waiter's pocket without passing through the income tax declaration.
> 
> Therefore, any additional tips directly given to the waiter are a pure acknoledgement of the quality of the service got, they are a sheer decision made by the customer according to his own judgement of the quality of goods and services he got for the money he has already paid.



We are still talking about the luxury of being waited on by hard-working people.  If your tax system makes everything so expensive, the hardship also affects people who work in service jobs.

When we talk about "tipping," it's obvious there are cultural differences being taken into account-- no one is being faulted for not giving gratuities where it would be inappropriate to do so, to a traffic judge or a shopkeeper or a vendor in the market, for example.

Tipping is never a part of any work that deals in *needed* commodities and services-- it would entail corruption, as in bribing a policeman or paying "protection" to the mobbed-up garbage-collector.

People who accept service are taking advantage of a system that in part relies on the honor and discretion of the party being waited on.  If someone who can't afford luxury withholds gratuities on that basis alone, he is chiseling, and I feel justified in criticizing the behavior as ugly.

People who can't afford to engage the service of others shouldn't do so under false pretenses either.  If a restaurant customer knows up front he isn't going to tip, he should alert the waiter to this fact so all that extra exertion can be saved for customers who pay their way.  The naive person whose self-justified explanation of bad behavior I criticized-- do you really get the feeling he would be straightforward with a waiter at a restaurant he "can't afford," _before_ accepting the service.

"I can't afford what I need" is the logic used by shoplifters.  Does high retail markup and exorbitant taxation justify theft, even the pettiest theft such as "sampling" food in the supermarket-- in _that_ context?  Freeloaders are one reason costs are so high for the rest of us.

Many restaurants in the U.S. include a 15% service charge-- my ethical argument against *never* tipping, "on principle of neediness," applies all the same.

I doubt if this person makes much eye contact with the waiters he stiffs, or feels proud of himself afterwards.
.


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## GenJen54

> Many restaurants in the U.S. include a 15% service charge-- my ethical argument against *never* tipping, "on principle of neediness," applies all the same.


When I was a waitress in a mid-range chain restaurant, all parties of 6 or more were subject to an automatic 15% gratuity. If anything, I felt this protected me from being "stiffed" and/or cheted out of money I was rightly owed.

On the flip side, I did not expect anything "extra" and was not offended when it did not appear on the table because I knew that the diners knew they were being charged a tip automatically. On the contrary, when the extra did appear, it was a surprising reward for a job well done.

My general philosophy is that I will tip those service people who I know are only earning a certain dollar amount, and provide me with "full" turn-key service. I will generally not tip - or otherwise leave a very small tip - in buffets and similar establishments where "self-service" is a part of the deal.


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## panjandrum

> I must say that I've always found the idea of tipping a percentage of the bill ridiculous. Why should the waiter get paid $9 to pour a _Schramsberg Reserve California Sparkler_ and $1.20 for a _Barefoot Bubbly California Champagne?_


Look at it this way. If you can afford whatever that weird $9 stuff might be, you can afford to tip 10-20% of it.

Both of my daughters have worked restaurants.
I tip for good service. I don't tip bad service.
I tip for good service even if I had to complain about the food - remember I am rewarding good service and good service can make all the difference if there are problems.
I comment to the manager if the service has been exceptional - that is worth a lot to restaurant staff - but it is not a substitute for a tip.
I comment to the manager if the service has been really poor.

Speaking of the 15% service charge.
Has anyone tried refusing to pay that charge?


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## foxfirebrand

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Speaking of the 15% service charge.
> Has anyone tried refusing to pay that charge?



If you tried that in the U.S. I am confident you would get away with it.  Even though it's stated upfront and you implicitly accepted the charge when you ordered food, "for service" is understood to mean "for good service."  I don't think any restaurant manager is going to allow a dissatisfied patron to loudly parse that distinction in front of the other eaters.  

People in the restaurant business can be accommodating to a fault.  You could not only get away with refusing to pay 15% for bad service, if you and your whole hyena pack showed up again a couple days later, you'd no doubt be cheerfully seated.  But when the waiter brought you your bourguignon it might have a "special sauce" to make up for your previous dissatisfactions.
.


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## cuchuflete

For a year and a half, 100% of my income came from tips *earned* working as a waiter and bartender in a Baltimore restaurant.  I was sometimes rewarded with great generosity, and at other times mistreated.  Probably as a result of this, I almost invariably leave a tip of 15% for adequate service, and more for very good service.  That's in the US, where I know that waiters depend on tips for the huge majority of their earnings.  (I was paid a "salary" of 60 cents per hour as a waiter, or less than $25 per week in wages, thus tips were essential, and I worked hard to earn them.)

In other parts of the world, I adjust my tipping habits to match the local culture.  In countries in which a mandatory service charge of 15% or 18% is automatically added to the restaurant bill, I add something extra for good service, but feel no obligation to do so for surly and inadequate service, as I know that the waiter or waitress is primarily a salaried employee, and that they do not depend on gratuities for the bulk of their income.  

They can earn tips by providing good service.  That is a moral contract I enter into when I sit down at the table.  I personally feel obligated to leave something if it has been earned.  If the service is atrocious, the lack of a tip beyond the mandatory 'fee' reflects the lack of earning efforts.


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## timpeac

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> When we talk about "tipping," it's obvious there are cultural differences being taken into account-- no one is being faulted for not giving gratuities where it would be inappropriate to do so, to a traffic judge or a shopkeeper or a vendor in the market, for example.
> 
> Tipping is never a part of any work that deals in *needed* commodities and services-- it would entail corruption, as in bribing a policeman or paying "protection" to the mobbed-up garbage-collector.
> 
> People who accept service are taking advantage of a system that in part relies on the honor and discretion of the party being waited on.
> .


 
Fox - I don't think you are taking into account quite how extensive the cultural differences are here between the USA and France. In France no waiters depend on tips - it is always an (albeit welcome) extra, in America all waiters depend on tips.

Now I don't like to talk for ME82, but since (s)he did not specify the country (s)he doesn't tip in I can only presume it is his/her native France. In France as a general rule you _don't_ tip, because the tip is already included in the bill and any further money is not expected (although of course it is welcome, and a nice way to show your appreciation if you have been very pleased with the service). This is utterly different to the US where waiters rely on tips. 

In relation to the US I would fully share your outrage at the comments, but in the context of France it is no worse than saying "I never put my loose change in the charity box on the counter in the local store because I need every penny". Actually thinking about it it is not even as "bad" as saying that.


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## foxfirebrand

I think I understand the cultural differences-- correct me if I'm wrong, but French diners do sometimes enjoy better-than-expected service, and deem the extra exertion worth rewarding.

I was objecting to a _predisposition_ *never* to tip, and tried to target the self-gratified *rationale* for such thinking.  In my clarification, I raised the issue of "tipping" the service staff off to the fact that no tip would be forthcoming.  If you seriously suggest this person would consider exposing his predispositions _before the fact, _you are being-- well, surprisingly generous.

In fact, and here I'm talking in general (and not about ME82), I have often been amazed by the quality of exemplary service non-tippers expect-- and how abusive they can be when treated by disregard, perhaps by a waiter who has been "tipped off" about them.  The same rationale is in effect-- "I'm poor and disadvantaged, I deserve special consideration."  Now tell me you haven't seen that attitude yourself, from the kind of deadbeats you can read like a book the minute they walk in the door.

And I reassert my point that people who can't afford luxury shouldn't feel entitled to contract for it on the cheap.
.


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## timpeac

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> And I reassert my point that people who can't afford luxury shouldn't feel entitled to contract for it on the cheap.


 
And I reassert mine that going to a restaurant in a European country knowing you have only the money necessary to pay the bill is in no way dishonest or morally suspect because no such implicit moral contract has been entered into it which would tacitly expect a tip.

My position on this - which is the same as anyone I know here in England and from those I know if France (and Germany and Spain thinking about it) - is that if service is included (which it invariably is) then the restaurant has taken the decision to deduct the service already. It is paid. Therefore adequate service would get nothing more. Personally if I receive above average service I would leave a tip but the inclusion of service in the bill has taken away any moral obligation to do so - at least to my mind.

Anyway, it's completely arbitrary. To take your own example why shouldn't a market vendor get a tip any less than a waiter if he greets me in a friendly manner and generally makes my buying experience as enjoyable as possible?

In the US you have a culture of always leaving a tip, in Europe we do not. At the end of the day I'm sure it works out the same through natural economics. If in the US people stopped tipping waiters employers would be forced to pay them a decent wage or they'd quit and go and do something else. Similarly if it was suddenly enforced in Europe to tip_ on current prices_ then some entrepreneur would start undercutting prices to gain custom by paying the waiters less which wouldn't make them leave because they would be getting bigger tips.


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## cartersam

in the area where i live tipping is considered polite.  You always tip unless the waiter does an extremely bad job.


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## foxfirebrand

So I'm glad we agree, at least.  If a troop of militant non-tippers walk into the place, *you* get to bring them their bowls and pour the Purina Primate Chow, and of course clean up their leavings-- after all, you're paid to.


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## Brioche

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I think I understand the cultural differences-- correct me if I'm wrong, but French diners do sometimes enjoy better-than-expected service, and deem the extra exertion worth rewarding.
> 
> I was objecting to a _predisposition_ *never* to tip, and tried to target the self-gratified *rationale* for such thinking. In my clarification, I raised the issue of "tipping" the service staff off to the fact that no tip would be forthcoming. If you seriously suggest this person would consider exposing his predispositions _before the fact, _you are being-- well, surprisingly generous.
> 
> In fact, and here I'm talking in general (and not about ME82), I have often been amazed by the quality of exemplary service non-tippers expect-- and how abusive they can be when treated by disregard, perhaps by a waiter who has been "tipped off" about them. The same rationale is in effect-- "I'm poor and disadvantaged, I deserve special consideration." Now tell me you haven't seen that attitude yourself, from the kind of deadbeats you can read like a book the minute they walk in the door.
> 
> And I reassert my point that people who can't afford luxury shouldn't feel entitled to contract for it on the cheap.
> .


 
As I live in a basically non-tipping country, I just cannot get my head around your argument.

In our little backwater, we have this quaint notion that _*employers* pay the wages._ The corollary is that the staff do the job they are paid to do.

If the cost of a cup of coffee is $3, put _three dollars_ on the menu. If you really expect me to pay $3.50, put _three dollars fifty cents_ on the menu.

If the hairdresser quotes me $60 for a haircut, fine. If she really wants $60 for the cut, $12 tip for herself, and $6 tip for the hairwasher, and $12 tax, just tell me that a haircut is $90. Be honest. Then I can work out just how much luxury I can afford.

I'm happy to pay for what I buy, but I consider I'm being stiffed when the sticker price is not the real price.


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## VenusEnvy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Speaking of the 15% service charge.
> Has anyone tried refusing to pay that charge?


::a hand is raised from the back of the room:: Yes, me. 

Having been a server for so long, maybe my standards are a little high. Often times (in my opinion), some servers don't try as hard to earn the tip when it comes in the form of a gratuity charge. A large group of us (6 or 7) went out to eat. Our service was horrible. We only saw our server 2-3 times, and she was rude when she did appear. We paid our bill and the gratuity, but informed her manager of our experience. He refused to make us pay it, we insisted, then he insisted more. Apparently, he'd received many complaints about this particular server.

Another side note: For some restaurants, it's 18%. Talk about upping the anti...



*Another more interesting side-note:
It's even more common for SERVERS to TIP OUT to other employees. I am a server, and I have to give 1% of my tips to each the bartender, busser, and expeditor. At the end of the shift, I'm walking away with 3% less than what I actually made.*


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## foxfirebrand

Brioche said:
			
		

> As I live in a basically non-tipping country, I just cannot get my head around your argument.



Well, I can understand _your_ argument with effortless ease.  It makes perfect sense.  So does the idea of a nation under the rule of law.  So do gender equity and racial tolerance.

So did Pound, Shilling and Pence-- but they changed it.  Some things they haven't got around to changing, and I understand that too.  Except for the part about, how come monkeys have counterposable toes and a prehensile tail, and I could never hope to catch one no matter how good I get at climbing trees?  
.


----------



## nycphotography

Brioche said:
			
		

> If the cost of a cup of coffee is $3, put _three dollars_ on the menu. If you really expect me to pay $3.50, put _three dollars fifty cents_ on the menu.
> 
> If the hairdresser quotes me $60 for a haircut, fine. If she really wants $60 for the cut, $12 tip for herself, and $6 tip for the hairwasher, and $12 tax, just tell me that a haircut is $90. Be honest. Then I can work out just how much luxury I can afford.
> 
> I'm happy to pay for what I buy, but I consider I'm being stiffed when the sticker price is not the real price.


 
I agree with you 118%.  I seethe every time I have this discussion.  What we have here (in America) (with respect to tipping) is one big fat lie.  I personally wish it was one simple flat  price, printed clearly on the menu.  I dont like guessing games.  Well, thats not entirely true, I love guessing games, but not when it comes to something basic like the cost of a meal.

Unfortunately, this is the mess we have to live with in America.  And as Americans, we have to assume and plan for the extra x% tax, plus 15% tip (for acceptable service).  Sigh.


----------



## annettehola

In Denmark the general unspoken rule has it that you tip if you were satisfied with a service bought, otherwise not, and it's not expected. There is one exception to the rule, though: taxi drivers. They do expect a little extra, fx. when rounding up. But then again, it is expected, not required. I'd like to ask Americans: what happens if you don't give a tip after having, say, consumed a meal? Are you being stared down or asked to leave very fast or what? What happens in that case?
Annette


----------



## foxfirebrand

annettehola said:
			
		

> I'd like to ask Americans: what happens if you don't give a tip after having, say, consumed a meal? Are you being stared down or asked to leave very fast or what? What happens in that case?
> Annette



In my experience, this is far from the case-- people in the food-service trade don't bad-vibe their customers, even for really bad behavior.  I've heard about customers who make up outrageous farfetched excuses to _refuse to pay for the meal--_ and then they're back a few days later, again and again on a regular basis.  I guess we've become such an inoffensive and lenient and thin-skinned society that small-business owners are afraid chiselers like this will be "offended" if not seated like honored guests-- and *sue.*

People who complain about the cost of eating out, and rightfully so, would be served if there were a good source for learning about all these hidden _costs of doing business._  Every time a customer takes matters into their own hand-- by not tipping, or in the very real instance I described above, by not _paying_-- obviously they drive up the price still further.

A breakdown in the very notion that there's a right and wrong way to behave-- that's the issue, and cultures who adopt a mandatory service charge (including the U.S., as I keep saying, to little apparent avail) have obviously been suffering from the same degeneration for quite some time.

The problem, as I see it, comes from people's insanely self-generous sense of entitlement-- their high expectations.  Eating out is expensive!  That's because other people are doing the work of going to market, prepping the ingredients, skilfully converting them into palatable and aesthetically-pleasing dishes, bringing them to you and attending to your ancillary needs-- and of course cleaning up the sometimes considerable mess people leave behind.

And all these people, in their own little worlds, harbor the same sense of high entitlement, and stifle the same agony of petty grievance, as their customers.  A situation whose blueprint was drawn up in Hell!

Stay home and cook for yourselves, as I keep saying!  How much enjoyment can you be having in restaurants, if all this plaintive caterwauling is any indication?  In answer to your question, then, no-- you won't be "stared down" by the waitpersons you stiff, not in the miniscule cultural sector I'm familiar with anyway.  They're back in the kitchen laughing about the noxious viral cocktail the busboy (who really, _really_ should've called in sick) hocked up in your vichyssoise.
.


----------



## GenJen54

> And all these people, in their own little worlds, harbor the same sense of high entitlement, and stifle the same agony of petty grievance, as their customers. A situation whose blueprint was drawn up in Hell!


These people have never worked in the restaurant industry, particularly as a server.



> I'd like to ask Americans: what happens if you don't give a tip after having, say, consumed a meal? Are you being stared down or asked to leave very fast or what?


In short, nothing. Nothing happens if you do not leave a tip, since in many instances, you may be leaving the restaurant before the waiter or waitress makes it back to the table to pick it up. Of course, if you were caught "stiffing" someone, you would receive the scornful reproach of the waiter or waitress for whom you have just denied income, but other than that, nothing would happen. 

This still does not make the practice right, even if based on cultural ignorance. As FFB says, even if the service was adequate (no major faux-pas), a 15% tip is still "de rigeur." Remember, you are providing these people with a part of their income. They are not salaried employees. Tips help them make up the otherwise "lost" wages they are not getting directly by the restaurant. 

Tipping, while ethically correct, is not mandatory by any means and serves as a supposed incentive for the waiter or waitress to provide good service. They must "work for it," as they say. As stated in my earlier post, most waiters and waitresses earn an hourly wage that is far below the standard minimum wage for most non-service employees.  Tips are supposed to help offset that wage loss.


----------



## Ratona

So in conclusion, if you're in the US leave a tip whether you enjoyed the service or not because waiters/waitresses don't get paid properly, despite this tip-earning being an incentive to always give good service.

Whilst in Europe (and Australia it would seem) we shall happily keep paying our waiting staff a wage and tipping when we personally deem it worthy/ justifiable or simply something we want to do.


----------



## foxfirebrand

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> And all these people, in their own little worlds, harbor the same sense of high entitlement, and stifle the same agony of petty grievance, as their customers. A situation whose blueprint was drawn up in Hell!
> 
> 
> 
> These people have never worked in the restaurant industry, particularly as a server.
Click to expand...


I knew I should've changed "these people" to "these workers," which is what I meant.  You can tell that if you go back and read it with that in mind, and note that I said they have the same attitude "as their customers."

Not your fault for glossing over that, though.  On glancing over this I took note that I hadn't nailed down the antecedent for "these people" very well, and I came _this close_ to hitting the edit button.

Just picking a nit.  What you say in your post is right on the mark.

And for Ratona: I don't think we Americans are obliged to leave tips for bad service, and when it's really bad most people don't.  I said I personally do, and then I said most people didn't agree with me, I didn't recommend that people _should_ do the same-- and I agreed with anyone who might make the point that my overtipping only makes some matters worse.

I go as far off the mark on one extreme as people who don't tip at all do, on the other.  I said that from the very start.

The outrage I expressed was for the attitude that justifies *never* tipping, no matter how above-and-beyond the service-- and then justifies it because of "poverty."  Yeah, you can live in poverty and eat in expensive restaurants.

Me, I live on welfare, food stamps and compensation checks for a fake disability-- and complain about taxes I don't even pay.  Plus I have three different faith-based groups conned into hand-delivering weekly care-packages of groceries so I can sell my foodstamps on the street for cig and booze money and still eat like a hog-- and I pull in six figures a year under the table, in the lucrative cybersex industry.  You got a problem with that?
.


----------



## annettehola

No.
Annette


----------



## me82

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> All you *need?* I'd sure like to understand how it is that anyone needs to be waited on by others-- hardworking, underpaid workers who don't owe _you_ free labor. What an attitude.
> 
> You're talking about your wants, not your needs. Confusing necessity with luxury can lead people into contemptible attitudes of entitlement, privilege and greed. You are talking about engaging the services of people and then not paying them-- I guess to you the service sector is the _servant_ sector.
> 
> If you don't have enough money for all you *need*, maybe all you need is a job. Waiting tables.
> .


 
You are misjudging me while not knowing me at all. i am not someone who treats people as servants, i more likely treat myself as the servant and everyone above me, ok? Yes i need a job, my own place where to live in and enough money to send enough gifts or help for those i love. Right now, i have no money to buy anything for myself, i save the little i have for very important things (i don't have to tell you what), i must live with my parents while struggling to find a job. And before i moved here, i had money problems, i couldn't eat right at all, but still gave a few cents to people in the streets when i could, although they didn't give me anything back... just because i was feeling compassion (not pity or anything). As for people working in coffee places/restaurants, i couldn't afford a coffee, how could i afford a tip, while the people working there had enough money every months? i'm not asking for anyone's pity or congratulations, i just hate to talk about it, but i have to explain the truth while you treat me as a rich person who isn't generous. People know me for giving all i can, always too much... without asking anything in return. If i ever get out of my situation, then i will more likely tip underpaid people. For now, i do with what i have, i don't give money, but i give other things. i save for presents when i can.... and sometimes yes, for me to have a better life.... no, to HAVE a life...nothing superficial.

i find it quite hurtful to be treated that way but think what you want, you don't know me.

have a good day.


----------



## me82

angela.fan said:
			
		

> Maybe it is the reason of different culture and habbit. In china, nobody will tip even in the high-class resturant. But this dosn't mean we don't respect and admire the waiter/waitress.


 
exactly, and maybe it also depends on how much waiters/waitresses are paid from one country to another.... i think in some countries they actually don't have enough to live right and they really depend on tips... In France, they are more independant (maybe not all, dunno), thankfully. i know this, because i applied for such jobs many times (more in France, but in other countries too) and i saw how much i would have got.


----------



## me82

timpeac said:
			
		

> Fox - I don't think you are taking into account quite how extensive the cultural differences are here between the USA and France. In France no waiters depend on tips - it is always an (albeit welcome) extra, in America all waiters depend on tips.
> 
> Now I don't like to talk for ME82, but since (s)he did not specify the country (s)he doesn't tip in I can only presume it is his/her native France. In France as a general rule you _don't_ tip, because the tip is already included in the bill and any further money is not expected (although of course it is welcome, and a nice way to show your appreciation if you have been very pleased with the service). This is utterly different to the US where waiters rely on tips.
> 
> In relation to the US I would fully share your outrage at the comments, but in the context of France it is no worse than saying "I never put my loose change in the charity box on the counter in the local store because I need every penny". Actually thinking about it it is not even as "bad" as saying that.


 
thank you for saying those things, i wouldn't have been able to find the English words to express it all, but i agree with you! And yes, i was talking about tipping in France, i live there.


----------



## foxfirebrand

You never said you didn't go to restaurants, you said if you had to tip there'd be a "big problem."  And I never implied you were rich or ungenerous.  I said if you couldn't afford to tip, you shouldn't be engaging the service of waiters in expensive restaurants-- I would say the same thing to my own grown children if they needed to hear it.  I also said getting a job might improve your finances.  Getting overemotional and misreading what I said isn't going to help you, or clarify this issue.  I stand by what I've said about tipping-- it doesn't depend on me knowing about your personal life, including your claims about giving away money on the streets.  Given my track record with you, I'll withhold any advice on that score too.
.


----------



## timpeac

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> You never said you didn't go to restaurants, you said if you had to tip there'd be a "big problem." And I never implied you were rich or ungenerous. I said if you couldn't afford to tip, you shouldn't be engaging the service of waiters in expensive restaurants-- I would say the same thing to my own grown children if they needed to hear it. I also said getting a job might improve your finances. Getting overemotional and misreading what I said isn't going to help you, or clarify this issue. I stand by what I've said about tipping-- it doesn't depend on me knowing about your personal life, including your claims about giving away money on the streets. Given my track record with you, I'll withhold any advice on that score too.
> .


It does depend on which country (s)he's in though - if (s)hes talking about France then (s)he does tip because undoubtedly it was included in the bill (probably under the confusingly equivocal term "service") so there was no option not to tip. Advice that is appropriate for your children isn't necessarily appropriate for others, particularly in other cultures.


----------



## mahaz

yes I think we should give tip to lower lever workers to encourage them and to motivate them.well its true that we usually give tip to waiters/waiteress


----------



## Yang

josue_ernesto said:
			
		

> On another note, how do you feel about those stupid tip cups for the cooks that you will always see at the cash register? That bugs me. Maybe this is something that you only see here in the US, but I think it's dumb. The cook's salary is guarenteed. He doesn't need a tip.


 
In Taiwan, there are some (not many) restaurants have the tip cups at the cash register, but the tip is not for the cooks. The restaurant would say the tip in the tip cup will be shared between the waiters, actually only a few restaurants (fancy bars, restaurants, usually American style) will do so. All Taiwan people know the boss (the restaruant owner) will take the tip.



> When we check out of a hotel, my husband usually leaves a few coins on the pillow for the person who cleans the room. He did his stint of Housekeeping in hotels while learning English in Edinburgh and hasn't forgotten the pleasure he used to get from finding the odd tip waiting for him on a pillow.


That is sweet. 



> When I'm in a situation where tipping is called for, I always tip, even if the service is bad-- in fact even if it's _very_ bad.


If we are talking about eating at restaurants only, then one will never have to worry about the tip question in Taiwan.

If restaurants charge a tip, they will let you know: a notice in the door or a note in the manu. If you don't know in advance, don't worry, you will know when you get the bill.

In Taiwan, the so-called tip would be included in the bill. When you pay, you can see there is a service charge/tip, usually 10%-20%, in the bill list, but we don't think it as a tip. Yes, usually these restaurants have waiters/waitresses, whose job are bring food to your table and cleaning. Mostly, however, the tip has nothing to do with them. The tip will be taken by the bosses/restaurants owners.

We think the so-called tip is a part of the price of the meal, whether the service is good or bad, you've got to pay it anyway. In brief, just pay the
total that the bill says. And when we pay, no one will associate the waiters with the tip.

If you give the waiters/waitresses a tip at such restaurant, I guess they will be surprised--they certainly will be very happy, and think it's a lucky day. Afterall, it's unusual.



> There is some tipping of waiting staff, porters, valet parkers and the like in Australia *in expensive hotels/restaurants. But not elsewhere*.


It is the similar situation in Taiwan.

But the restaurants that charge a tip (again, we don't think it as a tip) are not necessarily expensive. They do more expensive than the usual places where we go to eat lunch and dinner (Chinese style. In brief, such places where you can also sit down would never have coffee. You may pay $50-$80 N.T. dollars for a meal, which equals to $1.5-$2 U.S. dollars), but the price can be very different. 

Some of them may cost you $120-$180 N.T. dollars included the tip for a biref or pretty good meal which may be good or awful. These restaurants usually have coffee.

Some of them may cost you $180-$350 N.T. dollars included the tip for a meal which may be good or awful. At such price, you can have various choices--Indian food, American style, Western food...but not Franch food, this will cost more. And at such restaurants, the drink will not only be coffee. You can have drinks of many different countries. Still, these restaruants are not necessarily good, and we never know if the waiters have got the tip.

I had worked at restaurants. According to my own experience, if you work at a restaurant which I mentioned above, tip is what the customers should pay for their own bill, tip is never the money that a customer leave to the waiters.

Some of them can cost you over $1,000 N.T. dollars for a meal. Such restaruants usually mean high quality, beautiful decorations, excellent atmosphere...etc. and of course, food, usually the foreigh style. Cheines food can be very, very expensive, too. We seldom go to such places, unless you are rich.


----------



## Mei

Ok, I will say this in spanish because I can't find words in English, so if someone want to translate it I would be so grategul. As you can see I have bad days so often...

Estoy de acuerdo en dar propinas cuando comes en un restaurante y te han servido muy bien, además ser camarero es un trabajo duro, todo el día (o la jornada laboral) sirviendo mesas de aquí para allá. Pero hay otros trabajos de cara al público que no dan propinas y son pesados igual. Me explico, he estado trabajando en una tienda de trenes eléctricos, coches de colección, soldados de plomo, etc durante mucho tiempo, pocas propinas he recibido (por no decir ninguna). El hecho de vender un tren eléctrico no es como vender lápices, sinó que hay un servicio post-venta, es decir tu compras una caja donde tienes una máquina con vagones, unas vias de tren y un transformador, y, en el caso de que empieces de cero, que es la mayoría de la gente, ya que, muchas veces es para regalar, le tienes que explicar como funciona y no sólo eso sino que además, en el caso de que quieran hacer una maqueta, tienes que orientarlos. 

En eso no tenía ningún problema, me gustaba, pero al final del día dices las mismas cosas una y otra vez y eso es un servicio no remunerado. Yo era "ayudante de dependienta". La gente paga el precio de la caja de iniciación (tren, vagones, vias y transformador) y ya está, así que una propina se agradece. Una vez un cliente habitual me pidió un descuento, (yo no estaba autorizada a hacer descuentos) así que le dige "¿Si le hago descuento, me dará propina?" su respuesta fue "No, no, no,... ". 

Lo que quiero decir es que hay muchas profesiones en las que también se agradecería una propina y no se dá. Sé que hay países donde cuando pagas la cuenta hay un tanto por ciento que va destinado a propinas y tampoco estoy de acuerdo. Si quiero dar una propina, la doy a la persona que yo creo que se la merece.

Bueno, es lo que pienso...  

I'm sorry that I couldn't say this in English, I'm learning. Thank you for your patience.

Cheers

Mei


----------



## Yang

Mei said:
			
		

> Ok, I will say this in spanish because I can't find words in English, so if someone want to translate it I would be so grategul.


 
I always worry that people may not be able to understand what I write.
When I want to write down what in my mind, I don't know or am not sure how to express them. There are always so many mistakes in my posts. Thank you people here being so generous and kind.


----------



## Mei

Yang said:
			
		

> I always worry that people may not be able to understand what I write.
> When I want to write down what in my mind, I don't know or am not sure how to express them. There are always so many mistakes in my posts. Thank you people here being so generous and kind.


 
Yes, people is so kind here!  

Mei


----------



## Yang

Brioche said:
			
		

> As I live in *a basically non-tipping country*, I just cannot get my head around your argument.
> 
> In our little backwater, *we have this quaint notion that *_*employers pay the wages*._ The corollary is that *the staff do the job they are paid to do*.


 
These words are suitable for Taiwan, too.

If you work at a restaurant as a waiter, you know what the boss pays you is what you will get. Tip is none of your business.

Of course, there are restaurants where waiters/waitresses will get the tip, I mean really get the money which the customers leave to them, but that's not many.


----------



## mandarina_82

the same in Spain.


----------



## foxfirebrand

timpeac said:
			
		

> It does depend on which country (s)he's in though - if (s)hes talking about France then (s)he does tip because undoubtedly it was included in the bill (probably under the confusingly equivocal term "service") so there was no option not to tip. Advice that is appropriate for your children isn't necessarily appropriate for others, particularly in other cultures.



This person:
1. Never tips because s/he doesn't have money for all s/he needs.
2. Changes the story-- now s/he doesn't even go to restaurants.
3. Says when s/he does have money, s/he will tip.  Even though people on the street deserve the money and well-paid waiters don't.

There is confusion here, and emotive self-justification, and I smelled an inherent contradiction in it, which I addressed-- my response had nothing to do with cultural norms.  I said if you're broke, you shouldn't be eating in expensive restaurants.  I made a post about my own experience prior to this exchange, and people are lumping a lot of that in with the disagreement with me82's rationale.

Compare point 1 and 2-- to credit this poster's message as  coherent or sincere, we have to imagine the question was "do you tip at restaurants you don't eat at?"  Absurd or downright phony-- I think both.
.


----------



## timpeac

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> This person:
> 1. Never tips because s/he doesn't have money for all s/he needs.
> 2. Changes the story-- now s/he doesn't even go to restaurants.
> 3. Says when s/he does have money, s/he will tip. Even though people on the street deserve the money and well-paid waiters don't.
> 
> There is confusion here, and emotive self-justification, and I smelled an inherent contradiction in it, which I addressed-- my response had nothing to do with cultural norms. I said if you're broke, you shouldn't be eating in expensive restaurants. I made a post about my own experience prior to this exchange, and people are lumping a lot of that in with the disagreement with me82's rationale.
> 
> Compare point 1 and 2-- to credit this poster's message as coherent or sincere, we have to imagine the question was "do you tip at restaurants you don't eat at?" Absurd or downright phony-- I think both.
> .


 
I have no interest in trying to justify what ME82 may or may not be personally, so I will not go into your points 2 or 3.

As to 1 - (s)he made a short, and if I dare, fairly throw-away comment about never tipping. You came back with such vitriol that I can only assume that you interpreted it in the US sense of tipping. Whether that is or is not the case if someone is eating in restaurants in France then they are already tipping because it is included in the bill. So by natural context ME82 must have meant that (s)he doesn't leave extra, unlooked for, unrelied on and morally-uncontracted for tip on top of that already included in the bill.

Let's remember what was said -

*things are expensive enough i don't have the money to have all i need... if i had to tip everytime, that'd be a big problem.*

Were expensive restaurants mentioned? No. Were restaurants at all mentioned? No. If someone who has not got a lot of money _in France where tips are included in the bill_ wants to have a cup of coffee without intending, from before entering through the door, to leave any extra gratuity then I think that there is no moral question to answer let alone the diatribe you replied with - and let's remind ourselves of that -

*You're talking about your wants, not your needs.* *Confusing necessity with luxury can lead people into contemptible attitudes of entitlement, privilege and greed. You are talking about engaging the services of people and then not paying them-- I guess to you the service sector is the servant sector.* 

You are unequivocably accusing ME82 of contemptible attitudes, meanness, greed, self-importance and dishonesty. Way overthetop and in anycase completely unjustified.

Now, leaving these emotive and emotional specifics behind in the European context - in my opinion - you have got hold of completely the wrong end of the stick (for one of the very few times in your usually very perspicacious, wise, witty and often _ferociously _argued posts). Fox, here in Europe it is normal not to leave a tip over and above that in the bill. People say to each other "is the service included?" they check the bill and if yes they say right, if not they leave a tip.

It is clear from the above that you think discretionary tips (that are almost never withheld) are a good thing but that is not the issue. That is just not how it works in Europe, however desirable or not it may be. In America it is immoral to go to a restaurant without intending to leave something on the table. In that context you will not find me defending such an attitude.


----------



## cuchuflete

I'm going out to cut firewood. Before I do, I'd like to ask all those involved in this conversation who have had their say about tipping to limit their activities in this particular thread to *reading only.   *If you haven't posted yet, and want to address the topic of the thread, without commenting on either other members or their posts, please feel free to do so.

All of that is said with the tattered Moderator hat atop my skull.

Those of you who have read my contributions to discussions in these forums know that I enjoy an energetic debate about issues. Forum rules preclude comments about other members. If you disagree with their expressed ideas, then have at that disagreement, but try not to disparage other people while you are at it.

Thanks,
Cuchuflete,
Moderator


----------



## black magic woman

*ok i think we should tip cause even though sometimes we r in a bad mood they welcome us with a smile*


----------



## Mei

black magic woman said:
			
		

> *ok i think we should tip cause even though sometimes we r in a bad mood they welcome us with a smile*


 
Well, not always and not all ot them. That's why I tip sometimes.  

Cheers

Mei


----------



## timebomb

In Singapore, there's hardly any tipping.  The only occasions when people still tip would be when they are eating out at fancy restaurants.  Other than that, nobody ever tips anyone.  

Being unused to tipping, we forget that other countries have different cultures. So when we travel, we rarely leave tips - not for the bellboy who carries our luggage to the hotel room or for the taxi driver who welcomes us to his country.  This has led to a situation where we have acquired a reputation for being very stingy tourists.  

The other fallout from a no-tipping culture is that taxi drivers and people in the service industry here are known to be unhelpful and rude.  Since there's no reward for providing good service, people tend to give you the bare minimum and nothing more.  If you take a taxi in Singapore, you will find that the driver won't come down from his car to help you with your luggage.  He will simply open the boot from his driver's seat and you're expected to load and unload your luggage yourself, no matter how many bags you may be carrying.  Or maybe this isn't quite true.  He'll probably help you with the luggage as you're a tourist (you'll probably tip, won't you?) but he definitely won't help a local.  So there's some sort of discrimination too, in that, workers in the service industry tend to provide better service to foreigners than to the natives.

I would say tipping is good but tips should only be given when good service is provided.  It shouldn't be mandatory as this will make it meaningless.  

I've never been a waiter but I asked my nephew who works part-time in a fancy restaurant and he said tips make up a large portion of his income.  The restaurant he works in charges a service charge but this amount of money goes to the restaurant owner and not the waiters or waitresses.  If there's no tip, he said, there will be no incentive for him to provide good service.  Sure, he's paid by the hour and he should do a good job but then, it's only human nature to work harder when there are additional rewards.

Loh K L


----------



## boelo

In Holland it's quite normal to tip (and rather generous as well). Here in Spain tips are loads smaller.


----------



## ampurdan

Okay, I am going to explain a trouble I got into while I was in Istanbul. I wanted to go to a turkish bath, I think they call them hamam or hammam. Well, I did. There a guy was to give me a massage. It was wonderfull. He even stood upon my back in a way that didn't hurt me but made me feel so good. Well, the point is that he kept saying "tip massage", "tip massage" all the time. 

At that moment, what "tip" meant in English did not come into my mind. I just thought that "tip" was the turkish word for "good" or somthing alike. And I answered "yes, yes", every time that massage man repeated "tip massage" to me. In fact, I didn't leave any tip afterwards, because I was not concious of the fact that I should do so. 

And I have regreted it, because I was so satisfied with the massage that I went another time to get one, but to another hammam. Well, that time I was aware of the meaning of "tip" and I got no chance to forget it because they multiplied persons who rendered silly services for which a "tip" was asked. I went mad thinking that I was tipping that man who just brought me a pair of shoes and comparing this service to the really good massage they gave me in the first hamman and which was left untipped just because of my ignorance on a basic English travel vocabulary. 

At the end, they came asking for another tip that, according to what the guidebook said, was extremely high, so I had to deny it and it was not a pleasant situation. 
By the way, the massage was not half as good as the first one.


----------



## nycphotography

Somewhat tangential... but:

In Angolan Portuguese, Tip = Gasosa

Literally, it means "soda", and a tip, literally, is a few coins to buy a soda.  Or at least it USED to be.  

Now gasosa is also used when begging, and also when hustling at the market (ie. haggling for a fee to "protect" your car), even when its not, technically speaking, a tip.

In Angola, so many things are negotiated on the side of the road, that a true tip is rather rare.  Although many things are done on something of an informal / tip basis.  Some times they come and sweep a walk, or wash a car, then ask for gasosa.  

I swear, that annoyed me to no end.  No, I DON'T want me car washed.  Oops, too late.  Now, I suppose if I don't want you to come back and tear it apart, I have to pay, er, I mean tip you.  So my friend, when paying them, would cuss them out in portuguese and tell them not to wash it again.  Which worked perfectly, since the next time, they had a different one asking.


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## Heba

yes, I always tip waiters in restaurants and people who take care of my car in the parkings.


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## jess391847

It depends on how much work they do for me, or in general, and if I go to the place a lot. When I go to a restaurant a lot, I tip every other time, or I'll just give them change (even if it's just the quarter change I get back.) I'm a kid, though, and I don't have a lot of money in general to spend/give out. ^^; Most kids my age don't tip at all!


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## Hakro

Brioche said:
			
		

> In our little backwater, we have this quaint notion that _*employers* pay the wages._ The corollary is that the staff do the job they are paid to do.


 The same situation in Finland. The waiters/waitresses get a reasonable salary without tipping. 
Anyhow, in a restaurant I usually leave some coins on the table, and if the service has been extraordinary good I can give tips but seldom more than 5 %.


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## kevinleihuang

mandarina_82 said:
			
		

> it is cultural habit. that's it. what can be cossidered rude in a country is quite normal in other.


 

I cannot agree more. It is normal in China that people do not tip.


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## jjisneo

In vanuatu i have never seen a person tip anyone whether it be a waitress to a portman, however they never seem to mind so


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## gorbatzjov

I never tip, unles I'm in a country where it's common to tip. In Belgium people don't tip (maybe some lost tourist will). If service is really extremely good, you might consider to round the bill to the next 5 euro, but even that isn't really a custom.

During Summer I work as a receptionist at a hotel in Brussels and many Americans (from the USA) give me €5 or even €10 just for carrying their bags up to the room. Of course I don't refuse the money, but it always amazes me how much some people tip. 

When I was in Mexico or the USA, it's difficult for me to judge how much I would tip. In restaurants I leave 10%, minimum - I know. In fact I am against the tipping idea, because waiters and other tipping-receiving persons tend to more for those who tip more, while in fact every guest should be the same...


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## gorbatzjov

nycphotography said:
			
		

> Now gasosa is also used when begging, and also when hustling at the market (ie. haggling for a fee to "protect" your car), even when its not, technically speaking, a tip.
> 
> In Angola, so many things are negotiated on the side of the road, that a true tip is rather rare. Although many things are done on something of an informal / tip basis. Some times they come and sweep a walk, or wash a car, then ask for gasosa.



I was driving in Guadalajara, Mexico a few weeks ago and at every traffic lights people will show up to sell something or to clean your windows. I didn't want my windows to be cleaned and said so, he did anyway and I just drove off. Next time someone asked me, I said no and put on my windscreen wipers so that they couldn't even try to. My Mexican friend next to me said that was really unpolite... Would you agree?


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## ampurdan

gorbatzjov said:
			
		

> I was driving in Guadalajara, Mexico a few weeks ago and at every traffic lights people will show up to sell something or to clean your windows. I didn't want my windows to be cleaned and said so, he did anyway and I just drove off. Next time someone asked me, I said no and put on my windscreen wipers so that they couldn't even try to. My Mexican friend next to me said that was really unpolite... Would you agree?


 
Rude? No. Maybe a little bit drastic. Preventive war against the window cleaners.


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## patsparks

A tip is for good service only, bad service or just OK service then no tip. I only tip in restaurants never cabs or delivery people. Routine tipping is just a way to drive wages down. If tips are required there should be a cover charge on the menu or price list.
People should be paid a wage they can live on.


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## patsparks

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Rude? No. Maybe a little bit drastic. Preventive war against the window cleaners.


 
Well if you don't want their dirty window wash water all over your car what can you do? Here it's illegal because it's dangerous to wash windows at traffic lights.


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## tvdxer

Yes, I always tip, except when getting take-out or fast food of course.  Most Americans do the same.  It is generally considered very rude to "stiff" a waitress or waiter.  I don't have any set percentage, but I'll typically tip between 10 and 20%, depending on what bills are in my wallet.


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## timpeac

tvdxer said:
			
		

> Yes, I always tip, except when getting take-out or fast food of course. Most Americans do the same. It is generally considered very rude to "stiff" a waitress or waiter. I don't have any set percentage, but I'll typically tip between 10 and 20%, depending on what bills are in my wallet.


Funnily enough, because here tips are normally included in the price at a restaurant, the one time where I would tip as a matter of course is for take-away that is delivered (which I usually go for, being too lazy to walk around the corner to the shop) because they have had to come and deliver it to the door at the same price, so it's a contribution towards their petrol.


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## maxiogee

In any employment I have ever been in I have negotiated a remuneration which I could live on (sometimes only just).
I really fail to see why tipping is an expected, automatic, additional cost to a transaction.

Logic falls apart here. 
Why should I be 'required' tip someone who carries food, which someone else has prepared, a few feet from the kitchen to my table? I don't tip the employee of the video-rental shop who fetches the dvd I want from the vault and carries it to me. (It's a fair comparison, as I am likely to ask each of them what they recommend I spend my money on.)
Why should I tip the employee of the hairdresser's shop who cuts my hair, I don't tip the employee of the cycle-repair shop who services my bike?


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## ukuca

Tipping has become more popular in Turkey over let's say ten years, before there was only occasional tipping traditions in feasts (Ramazan, etc..) We generally tip if we want a job to be taken properly. (This could be afterwards as well)


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## timpeac

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Why should I tip the employee of the hairdresser's shop who cuts my hair, I don't tip the employee of the cycle-repair shop who services my bike?


I view such things on a case by case basis. Knowing that we have minimum wage I know that everyone is eating at least. For example, I have a good idea of what I should pay for my haircut. I've been me for longer than I would like and some could stand and have in that time been to dozens of hairdressers. I know if somewhere is expensive, and if they are I don't tip any more. (Americans to who that probably sounds very mean - please remember it is a very different culture to tipping all round here. We have minimum wage of around £5 an hour, so around $9 an hour).

In my home town taxis are horrendously expensive - more than double where my parents come from (not all that far away). Taxi drivers don't get a tip from me here. They will tell you that the high prices are due to local regulation charges etc. I don't view that as a problem - I have my own idea of what is reasonable to pay for a journey from A to B and if the price on the list is already there or above I feel no obligation to lay out more on it. By contrast, I am always amazed by how cheap the taxis are where my parents live and so it only takes a lack of complete rudeness for a taxi driver to get a tip from me there.


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## Nineu

I'm against tips for some reasons:
1.-  The owner have to pay the salary, not the clients.
2.-  If we don't give tips we press the owner to give a better (decent) salary.
3.-  If the owner pay a just salary, the will pay the tax they should pay.

When the service is exceptionally good, I tip.  But if it's bad, normal or good, I don't do it because when I go to a restaurant, I pay for a good food, good place and good service.  And the more I pay the more I expect.


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## Tensai

as for Chinese, it really depends on the service provided by the workers.
if the food and service is terrible,  we might not tip at all, or we might tip 1 cent.


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## tvdxer

timpeac said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, because here tips are normally included in the price at a restaurant, the one time where I would tip as a matter of course is for take-away that is delivered (which I usually go for, being too lazy to walk around the corner to the shop) because they have had to come and deliver it to the door at the same price, so it's a contribution towards their petrol.



I forgot to mention that...you're supposed to tip the "pizza guy" (and equivalents).


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