# FR: de très bonnes amies



## Tamarin26

I just need a hand in understanding the use of the word *de *in the sentence

Nous sommes de très bonnes amies. So would 'nous sommes très bonnes amies' not be correct?

Thanks in advance


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## RuK

It would be incorrect. I'm going to have trouble explaining this, so I'll leave it to somebody else. It's like saying "je voudrais du beurre" instead of "I'd like some butter. It's not 'de' as 'of'.


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## tilt

RuK said:


> It would be incorrect. I'm going to have trouble explaining this, so I'll leave it to somebody else. *It's like saying "je voudrais du beurre" instead of "I'd like some butter. It's not 'de' as 'of'.*


I'm afraid I didn't get that, RuK!  

Both are correct, Tamarin26, but there's a little difference in the meaning.
In _Nous sommes amis_, _amis _is an adjective and refers to the friendship, whereas in _Nous sommes des amis_, _amis _is a noun and refers to the people who are friends.
It's just like saying _Nous sommes français (we are French) _and _Nous sommes des Français _(we are French people).


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## Ha_na

tilt, very good. I'm impressed because it's difficult to explain.
I'd like to add one thing: here "de" doesn't have the senses of belonging or origin, it's the preposition in front of an adjective, it means the plural "des": I say "*de* très bonnes amies", it seems more difficult to me to say "nous sommes très bonnes amies" even if it's not really a mistake but it doesn't have the same nuance, I feel a lack if we are really good friends as sisters. But for sure I say "nous sommes*_*amies", "nous sommes *de* bonnes amies"
The nuance is: less closer when you don't put "de"
I wonder if I'm merely stuck to my personal use -??- I would know the opinion of my congenerics


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## tilt

I agree _être des amis _sounds a bit more emphatic than _être amis_.
But _de _is an article, not a preposition, Ha_na, and that's why it does means _des_, as you said. Besides, we would say _Nous sommes *des* amies_.
As far as I know, the _s_ is dropped only for euphony purpose _in de (très) bonnes amies.
_


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## Barre-tendre

_Nous sommes de très bonnes amies._

*Nous *= sujet
EDIT: *de *= article indéfini
*très bonnes amies *= attribut du sujet

_Nous sommes très bonnes amies_. Not good.
_Nous sommes bonnes amies. _Not good.
_Nous sommes de bonnes amies._ Good
_Nous sommes amies. _Good.

_Je voudrais du beurre._

*du *= article partitif


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## broglet

Ha_na said:


> tilt, very good. I'm impressed because it's difficult to explain.
> I'd like to add one thing: here "de" doesn't have the senses of belonging or origin, it's the preposition in front of an adjective, it means the plural "des": I say "*de* très bonnes amies", it seems more difficult to me to say "nous sommes très bonnes amies" even if it's not really a mistake but it doesn't have the same nuance, I feel a lack if we are really good friends as sisters. But for sure I say "nous sommes*_*amies", "nous sommes *de* bonnes amies"
> The nuance is: less closer when you don't put "de"
> I wonder if I'm merely stuck to my personal use -??- I would know the opinion of my congenerics


Surely "nous sommes très bonnes amies" is grammatically incorrect.  The adjective 'bonnes' implies that 'amies' here is the noun, not the adjective, which is why the article 'de' is required.  Could native French grammarians please advise.

I would suggest the following as translations:

nous sommes amies = we are friendly towards each other
nous sommes des amies = we are friends
nous sommes de très bonnes amies = we are very good friends


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## Ha_na

Thanks tilt, Barre-tendre and broglet. You're very helpful.


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## Barre-tendre

Sorry, I made a mistake in my previous post, but I've corrected it now.
--------

_Nous sommes de très bonnes amies._
In fact, Tilt is right: here _de _is an *article*. 

Rule: *Des --> de* lorsque le nom qu'il détermine est précédé d'un adjectif qualificatif. 


_Une drôle de personne._
_de = de _explétif (sans valeur grammaticale)


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## pieanne

Both are correct
"Nous sommes de très bonnes amies" > We are a pair of very good friends
"Nous sommes très bonnes amies" > Our relationship can be qualified as very good friends


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## geostan

pieanne said:


> Both are correct
> "Nous sommes de très bonnes amies" > We are a pair of very good friends
> "Nous sommes très bonnes amies" > Our relationship can be qualified as very good friends



I should know better than to disagree with a native speaker, but in these sentences, "amies" is clearly a noun, and as such, only the first version would be acceptable to me.

Cheers!


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## Arrius

To put it simply, you need _de_ before an adjective and a plural noun as in *de bons amis/ de bonnes amies* *unless *the adjective is so closely associated with the plural noun that they virtually form a unit as in _des petits enfants jouaient au jardin où_ _des jeunes filles les surveillaient assises sur les bancs._ There used to be a chanson about a bored receveur or conductor on a Parisian bus who all day long _fait des petits trous_ to cancel the tickets, with _des _used presumably because the holes were essentially small.


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## pieanne

geostan said:


> I should know better than to disagree with a native speaker, but in these sentences, "amies" is clearly a noun, and as such, only the first version would be acceptable to me.
> 
> Cheers!


 
Nous sommes amies
Nous sommes bonnes amies
Nous sommes très bonnes amies
...
None strikes me as unusual in French  :S


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## pieanne

But I don't know what the OP is after...
Is it everyday spoken French?
Or are you teaching? In this case, you'd better post in French only, I think...


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## Barre-tendre

pieanne said:


> Nous sommes amies
> Nous sommes bonnes amies
> Nous sommes très bonnes amies
> ...
> None strikes me as unusual in French  :S



In that case, can you say:

_Nous sommes *grandes *amies./Nous sommes *vraies *amies.
Nous sommes *très grandes* amies./Nous sommes *très vraies* amies.

_I don't think so, at least not in standard French.


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## mgarizona

Barre-tendre said:


> In that case, can you say:
> 
> _Nous sommes *grandes *amies./Nous sommes *vraies *amies._
> _Nous sommes *très grandes* amies./Nous sommes *très vraies* amies._
> 
> I don't think so, at least not in standard French.


 
No. Pieanne's *bon* works because it's an adverb. Your *grand/vrai* do not, because they are only adjectives.


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## Barre-tendre

Vous commencez à me faire douter de moi. 

En effet,_ bon _est un adjectif qualificatif qui peut être employé comme adverbe. Mais dans ce cas-là, il est invariable.

(Adjectif attribut) Nous sommes *bonnes*.
(Adjectif épithète) Les *bonnes *amies sont rares.
(Adverbe) Mes amies sentent *bon*. Mes amies tiennent *bon*.

Locutions interjectives/adverbiales (où *bon *est invariable) : 
- *Allons bon*!
- *À quoi bon*?
- *Bon*!
- *Il est bon de* rire de temps en temps./*Il est bon que* tu te sois décidé à partir.
- *Il fait bon* dormir.
- Je ne l'aime plus *pour de bon*./Travaillons *pour de bon*.
- Ton parfum *sent bon*.
- Ne lâche pas, *tiens bon*.
- Elle est inquiète *tout de bon*.
 
MAIS il existe certaines expressions avec _bon _(fonction d'attribut) qui peuvent prendre l'accord. Ce sont les expressions _*bon premier*_ (accord en genre et en nombre), _*bon enfant*_ (accord facultatif en genre seulement), _*bon prince*_ (accord facultatif en nombre seulement).

Exemples tirés de la _Banque de dépannage linguistique _de l'Office québécois de la langue française : 

1) Certaines provinces canadiennes se classent *bonnes premières* [...].
2) Mariette et Louise se sont montrées *bonne enfant* (ou *bon enfant*).
3) Ces candidates se sont montrées *bons princes* (ou *bon prince*) envers leurs détracteurs.

-------------------
Pour l'instant, je ne crois pas que _bon ami _fasse partie de ces expressions qui fonctionnent comme des locutions adverbiales et qui n'ont pas besoin d'être précédées d'un déterminant. 

La phrase _Nous sommes de bonnes amies_ s'analyse donc comme suit :
*bonnes *= adjectif, fonction d'épithète
*amies *= nom, fonction d'attribut

*De *est donc ici un article à cause de la présence du goupe nominal *bonnes amies*.

Maintenant, la question est de savoir si l'article _de _aurait pu être omis. 
L'article peut être omis devant certains attributs (ex. _Il est médecin_, où _médecin _est attribut du sujet), mais cet article est rétabli la plupart du temps dès que le nom est déterminé par un adjectif (ex. _Il est *un *bon médecin_). 

Conclusion : on ne peut faire l'économie de l'article _de_ dans les deux phrases_ : Nous sommes *de *bonnes amies/Nous sommes *de* très bonnes amies_.
-------------------

Mais peut--être que je me trompe. 

P.S. Let me know if you want me to translate this in English.


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## ChiMike

Tamarin26 said:


> I just need a hand in understanding the use of the word *de *in the sentence
> 
> Nous sommes de très bonnes amies. So would 'nous sommes très bonnes amies' not be correct?
> 
> Thanks in advance


 
The reason you need "de" is because it is expressing a missing indefinite article, and some would say it is, in addition, partitive (although there is a problem with speaking of partitives for plural nouns - but here, clearly, it expresses the idea of a group of friends -- of which some are just "friends", others are "good friends" and a small number are "very good friends").

It is easiest, in both English and French, to think of this sentence as the result of the following thought and grammatical process:

She is a good friend of mine. Elle est une bonne amie à moi. Elle est une de mes bonnes amies. (so, partitive, one of a group)
I am a friend of hers. Je suis une bonne amie à elle.
We are good friends. Nous sommes de bonnes amies. (Presuming we are both women, as in the example.)

English has no plural for the indefinite article (a, an) and uses other descriptors: some, a couple of, a pair of, etc., or, as in this case: *None at all!*; French does have a form to indicate indefiniteness, it is the same as for the definite article, but it is called "partitive". It is "des".

However, the rigid rules of syntax require (according to Grevisse, para. 330) that, when the noun is preceded by an adjective, one should use only "de" and not "des". This used to be so in the singular as well as in the plural ("J'ai bu de bonne bière en Allemagne."), but current usage, both oral and written, allows, and, some would say, favors using the definite article in the singular in this partitive use, even with a preceding adjective (J'ai bu de la bonne bière en Allemagne). See: Grevisse, Ibid.

As for "Nous sommes ami(e)s", the noun, "ami(e)s," is said to be an attribut in apposition to the subject, much as: "Il est médecin", causing omission of the article (definite or indefinite). In this usage the noun takes on the quality (although not the form) of an adjective. English follows the same logic: We are friends ("friend" is, etymologically, a noun formed from the present participle of the OE verb: freogan: to love). If one wishes to insist on the relationship instead of the apposition (quasi-adjective use of the noun): Nous sommes des amis = We are a couple of friends, and the "des" is required in French if there is a further complement of circumstance: "Nous sommes des amis qui voyageons ensemble." English does not require this step and allows "We are friends who are traveling together", but most people I know would say: "We are a couple of friends who are traveling together." -- so that the "partitive" nature of the relationship is indicated: just a couple of friends, not a "couple of special friends...

I hope that is clearer than mud, but, having written it, I'm not sure...


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## giannid

*L'article indéfini

des* se change en *de* (ou *d'*) _devant un nom précédé d'un adjectif _(remarquez bien que *de *est l'article indéfini dans ce cas, pas une préposition):* Ex.*  Voici *des* roses.  Voici *de* belles roses.

_*Remarque*_:  Quand l'adjectif _fait partie d'un nom_, on garde *des*.
Pour example:  *des* petits pois.


_Source:  Grammaire Française, Jacqueline Ollivier_


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## broglet

mgarizona said:


> No. Pieanne's *bon* works because it's an adverb. Your *grand/vrai* do not, because they are only adjectives.


 But if this is the case and if, as Barre-tendre says, bon is invariable when used as an adverb, would the form omitting the 'de' not be "nous sommes très bon amies"?


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## Tamarin26

Thank you all so much for your help.


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