# сказать и говорить



## jester.

Добрый вечер всем 

У меня вопрос:

Can you explain the difference between сказать and говорить?

My dictionary says:
-сказать = to say
-говорить = to speak

But: I have recently come across this sentence: "Аня, что ты говоришь маме утром?" in which case "to speak" doesn't work as a translation. But "to say" does work.

So, can you explain the difference to me? Could you maybe give me a few more examples how those two verbs are to be used and translate those examples for me?

~~~

A second, closely related question: I remember that I once heard "скажим" in a sentence like "Что скажим ему?"

Does this verb "скажим" come from сказать?


Thanks a lot in advance


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## papillon

I don't think i quite agree with your dictionary..
As I'm sure you know by now, all verbs in Russian are either perfective or imperfective. In my opinion, the verbs сказать/говорить mean more or less the same thing, but form a perfective/imperfective pair:
что делать? --  _ говорить_
что сделать? -- _сказать
_This is similar to other verb pairs like брать/взять, класть/положить.

In the sentence 
"Аня, что ты _говоришь_ маме утром?", 
we use the imperfective verb, and the sentence, in this case, means "Ania, what do you say to your mommy in <every> the morning?". Since we are using present tense, we must use an imperfective verb, since perfective verbs don't have present tense. The word _every_ in this case is implied.
On the other hand, saying 
"Аня, что ты _скажешь_ маме утром?" means "What will you tell your mother in the morning?".

In the first case Аня is most likely a little girl being reminded to say good morning. In the second case, Аня could be, say, a young lady who hasn't told her mother about a failed exam.


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## papillon

But, on second thought there are some subtle differences, I think now I see what your dictionary was trying to say. The verb _ говорить_ could be translated as "to talk".
Did you tell him about the concert? No, I will tell him tomorrow.
Ты ему сказал насчёт концерта? Нет, я ему завтра скажу.

Did you talk to him about the concert? No, I'll have to talk to him about it tomorrow.
Ты с ним насчет концерта говорил? Нет, я  с ним об этом буду завтра говорить. <_or_ Я с ним об этом завтра поговорю>.

BTW, скажeм is indeed a form of сказать:
Сказать
я скажу
ты скажешь
она скажет
мы скажем
вы скажете
они скажут


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## Brian P

Нет ли у глагола "говорить", кроме "сказать", другая совершенная форма "поговорить" который значит "to have a talk"? Например: 
"Мы поговорим завтра" We'll have a chat tomorrow 
Вчера мы с другом поговорили Yesterday I had a talk with my friend

Papillon - a small mistake, It should be "on second thoughts"


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## papillon

Brian P said:


> Нет ли у глагола "говорить", кроме "сказать", другая совершенная форма "поговорить" который значит "to have a talk"? Например:
> "Мы поговорим завтра" We'll have a chat tomorrow


Exactly. That's why I had to give an alternative translation in my last post for "i'll have to talk to him about it tomorrow". 
With the use of prefixes ad suffixes, you can convert pretty much any perfective verb into imperfective, and vice versa. 
говорить (_imperf._) -> поговорить, переговорить, заговорить, выговориться (_all perf._).
Сказать (perf.) : сказывать (imperf.) <a bit archaic>.

Да, это действительно так. Именно поэтому я и дал альтернативный перевод фразы "i'll have to talk to him about it tomorrow".
Используя суффиксы и префиксы, практически любой cовершенный глагол можно перевести в несовершенный, и наоборот. 
говорить (_несов._) -> поговорить, переговорить, заговорить, выговориться.
Сказать (_сов._) : сказывать (imperf.) <a bit archaic>.


Brian P said:


> Papillon - a small mistake, It should be "on second thoughts"


Brian, are you sure about this? I see a lot of "on second thought" around..


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## jester.

papillon said:


> Brian, are you sure about this? I see a lot of "on second thought" around..



I'm quite sure that both are correct.

Thank you for your explanations. In fact, I have not yet worked with aspects, but I feel that I'll soon have to do this...


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## Insider

papillon, it's really should be "on second thought*s*".  Try to check somewhere on internet phrases which starts with "on". There, the one mentioned above should have been included for sure.

Insider


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## papillon

Insider said:


> papillon, it's really should be "on second thought*s*".  Try to check somewhere on internet phrases which starts with "on". There, the one mentioned above should have been included for sure.


From Google:
Results *1* - *10* of about *2,030,000* for * "on second thought"*.  (*0.07* seconds)
Results *1* - *10* of about *396,000* for * "on second thoughts"*.  (*0.08* seconds) 

I know this doesn't mean anything, but still, food for thought (or thoughts ).
Tell you what: I'll go and ask this question in the English only forum right now.  Now I am curious.


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## cyanista

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary states that "on second thoughts" is BrE and "on second thought" AmE (which would explain the abundance of the latter on the Internet).


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## papillon

cyanista said:


> The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary states that "on second thoughts" is BrE and "on second thought" AmE (which would explain the abundance of the latter on the Internet).


Curiouser and curiouser indeed. Thank you Cyanista for this explanation. In any event, so as not to hijack Jester's thread, I opened a new one on this topic in the English forum. Thanks.
EDIT: turns out Brian already has a thread going on this topic.


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## Icetrance

If you use "сказать" in the past tense in question or a declarative sentence, aren't you emphasizing the outcome of having talked to someone; in other words, that you ended up talking to someone is what's being implied. That wouldn't be the case with "говорить", however.


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## morzh

To me it's fairly simple:

Сказать - to have spoken, said/to have said,  told/ to have told.
Говорить - to speak, to be saying, to be telling, to talk/to be talking.

Сказать - has a meaning of "perfect", that is a finite action.
Говорить - has a meaning of continuous action.

Он сказал правду - he spoke/has spoken/has told the truth.
Он говорит правду - he is speaking/telling the truth.
Он говорил правду - he was telling/speaking the truth.

It is more than just that but continuous vs. finite is the most prominent difference.


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## Icetrance

morzh said:


> To me it's fairly simple:
> 
> Сказать - to have spoken, said/to have said, told/ to have told.
> Говорить - to speak, to be saying, to be telling, to talk/to be talking.
> 
> Сказать - has a meaning of "perfect", that is a finite action.
> Говорить - has a meaning of continuous action.
> 
> Он сказал правду - he spoke/has spoken/has told the truth.
> Он говорит правду - he is speaking/telling the truth.
> Он говорил правду - he was telling/speaking the truth.
> 
> It is more than just that but continuous vs. finite is the most prominent difference.


 
Yes, all these things are true. 

I forgot about "spoke the truth", which is an instantaneous action that woud be put in the past perfective (cказать). But it is more complicated than that. There are times when the past perfective could be "ended up speaking", etc. You'd have to have the context in front of you to know for sure.


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## dec-sev

Hi, Icetrace. 
I see you keep digging out old theads related to perfect vs. imperfec verbs. I'm glad that the question makes you lose sleep 


Icetrance said:


> If you use "сказать" in the past tense in question or a declarative sentence, aren't you emphasizing the outcome of having talked to someone; ...


 I wouldn't _say_ so 
_Я сказал Ивану, что не пойду сегодня на футбол._
I don't think there is any emphasiz of my having talked to Ivan. What is important that I let him know / informed him that I wasn't going to go to the stadium and watch football.


Icetrance said:


> I forgot about "spoke the truth", which is an instantaneous action that woud be put in the past perfective (cказать).


 If you mean using a  verb of the perfective aspect in order to translate "spoke the truth", you're right.


Icetrance said:


> There are times when the past perfective could be "ended up speaking", etc.


Yes, but it's about the verb itself. I mean the meaning of the verb. For example "поговорить" (the verb of the perfective aspect). 
_Я поговорил с Иваном._ 
The idea is that I've had a conversation with Ivan.
Or did you mean something else?


Icetrance said:


> You'd have to have the context in front of you to know for sure.


Right!!! Unfortunately we don't have any


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## Icetrance

dec-sev said:


> Hi, Icetrace.
> I see you keep digging out old theads related to perfect vs. imperfec verbs. I'm glad that the question makes you lose sleep
> I wouldn't _say_ so
> _Я сказал Ивану, что не пойду сегодня на футбол._
> I don't think there is any emphasiz of my having talked to Ivan. What is important that I let him know / informed him that I wasn't going to go to the stadium and watch football.
> If you mean using a verb of the perfective aspect in order to translate "spoke the truth", you're right.
> Yes, but it's about the verb itself. I mean the meaning of the verb. For example "поговорить" (the verb of the perfective aspect).
> _Я поговорил с Иваном._
> The idea is that I've had a conversation with Ivan.
> Or did you mean something else?
> Right!!! Unfortunately we don't have any


 
Yes, I see what you're saying. I wasn't thinking too clearly when I posted that post. lol. But it's not always the completion of an action that warrants the perfective tense. It's sometimes about successful completion (outcome). Again, it depends on the verb and context. It does seem that "end up" could be in the translation of certain perfective verbs in Russian.

In Russian, people use the imperfective a lot when asking questions. If someone wants to say "Have you ever spoken to him", couldn't use the imperfective here? I suppose you could use the perfective as well, no? I'm not sure. It reminds me of the sentence "Have you ever read this book?", where the imperfective aspect would literally mean "Were you ever reading this book (whether you finished it or not is not important, but you probably did). 

So, I suppose that the imperfective (_говорить) _would mean "Were you ever involved in a conversation with him", whereas the perfective (сказать) would mean "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? (completed action). The imperfective could imply completed action, though, but it's not so important with the meaning "Were you ever in a conversation with?" (process, duration).


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## dec-sev

Icetrance said:


> In Russian, people use the imperfective a lot when asking questions. If someone wants to say "Have you ever spoken to him", couldn't use the imperfective here? I suppose you could use the perfective as well, no? I'm not sure. It reminds me of the sentence "Have you ever read this book?", where the imperfective aspect would literally mean "Were you ever reading this book (whether you finished it or not is not important, but you probably did).


 "Have you ever read this book?" is a good example of how a verb of the imperfective aspect (тыкогда-нибудь читал эту книгу?), although literally means “Were you ever reading this book” actually works like the present perfect in English, namely expresses the result rather then duration of the action. I have a good explanation of this “phenomenon” but it’s in German.  


Icetrance said:


> So, I suppose that the imperfective (_говорить) _would mean "Were you ever involved in a conversation with him", whereas the perfective (сказать) would mean "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? (completed action). The imperfective could imply completed action, though, but it's not so important with the meaning "Were you ever in a conversation with?" (process, duration).


 Either you complicate things or it’s me how can’t understand you clearly, but I don’t see any difference between "Were you ever involved in a conversation with him" and "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? If I am involved in a conversation with a person it would be logically to suggest that I did have a conversation with him  
I think you problem is that you’re looking at the things from “action in duration vs. action completed” point of view, but try to look at them as “action itself vs. result of the action”
Just think over my example once again:
_Я сказал Ивану, что не пойду сегодня на футбол._
It’s clear that if I said (сказал) something to Ivan, then I did have a conversation with him. You cannot say something to a person without having a conversation with him. Well, you may say something but get no answer. In this case you can’t call it a conversation, but it’s behind the point. What matters in this case is the result of the action: Ivan knows that I’m not going to the stadium, not "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? (completed action)” as you see it.


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## Icetrance

dec-sev said:


> "Have you ever read this book?" is a good example of how a verb of the imperfective aspect (тыкогда-нибудь читал эту книгу?), although literally means “Were you ever reading this book” actually works like the present perfect in English, namely expresses the result rather then duration of the action. I have a good explanation of this “phenomenon” but it’s in German.
> Either you complicate things or it’s me how can’t understand you clearly, but I don’t see any difference between "Were you ever involved in a conversation with him" and "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? If I am involved in a conversation with a person it would be logically to suggest that I did have a conversation with him
> I think you problem is that you’re looking at the things from “action in duration vs. action completed” point of view, but try to look at them as “action itself vs. result of the action”
> Just think over my example once again:
> _Я сказал Ивану, что не пойду сегодня на футбол._
> It’s clear that if I said (сказал) something to Ivan, then I did have a conversation with him. You cannot say something to a person without having a conversation with him. Well, you may say something but get no answer. In this case you can’t call it a conversation, but it’s behind the point. What matters in this case is the result of the action: Ivan knows that I’m not going to the stadium, not "Did you ever have a conversation with him"? (completed action)” as you see it.


 

"Were you ever involved in a conversation?" would mean that the action has not been completed, even though it's implied it would be. It's not exactly same as "Did you ever have a conservation with him" (completed action). In other words, "Were you ever involved in a conversation with him" literally means "Were you ever talking to him (process). Not quite the same thing.

I understand the difference pretty well between the imperfective and perfective aspects, except in very specific situations. like the example of "Have you ever read this book"? (why imperfective is chosen). 

In past negative sentences, I rarely have any trouble understanding the difference, as in the future aspects (usually). It's just mainly in affirmative sentences in specific cases. I am a perfectionist.


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## jamtland76

morzh said:


> To me it's fairly simple:
> 
> Сказать - to have spoken, said/to have said,  told/ to have told.
> Говорить - to speak, to be saying, to be telling, to talk/to be talking.
> 
> Сказать - has a meaning of "perfect", that is a finite action.
> Говорить - has a meaning of continuous action.
> 
> Он сказал правду - he spoke/has spoken/has told the truth.
> Он говорит правду - he is speaking/telling the truth.
> Он говорил правду - he was telling/speaking the truth.
> 
> It is more than just that but continuous vs. finite is the most prominent difference.




_Поговорить_ must be used as the perfective form of _говорить_ when this one means "to talk"?
For example I found this phrase in a podcast describing what you can do in a bar: "Вы можете прийти в бар с друзьями и поговорить с ними о чемпионате мира по хоккею, например."
Is it wrong here using _сказать_ instead of _поговорить_?


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## morzh

jamtland76 said:


> _Поговорить_ must be used as the perfective form of _говорить_ when this one means "to talk"?
> For example I found this phrase in a podcast describing what you can do in a bar: "Вы можете прийти в бар с друзьями и поговорить с ними о чемпионате мира по хоккею, например."
> Is it wrong here using _сказать_ instead of _поговорить_?



Но, "поговорить" isn't a simply perfect from "говорить".

It may be used as such (Мы уже поговорили - we've already spoken), but mostly it means "to hold a conversation in a casual way", "to chat".

Поговорить о погоде - to chat about the weather.
- Приходите, посидим, поговорим - come over, we'll sit down, chew some fat.
- В его компании можно поговорить о футбле - in his company one can talk about soccer.
- Мне нужно с шефом поговорить о повышении зарплаты - I need to have a talk with my boss about a raise.


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## jamtland76

Thank you! Since _поговорить _is a perfective verb if I want to use its meaning of "to chat" in a continuous tense which other verb should I employ?
For example:
We were chatting about soccer when the boss came in the office.
Мы говорили о футболе кагда шеф вошёл в офис. (?)


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## Natalisha

jamtland76 said:


> Thank you! Since _поговорить _is a perfective verb if I want to use its meaning of "to chat" in a continuous tense which other verb should I employ?
> For example:
> We were chatting about soccer when the boss came in the office.
> Мы говорили о футболе каoгда шеф вошёл в офис.


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## Sobakus

jamtland76 said:


> _Поговорить_ must be used as the perfective form of _говорить_ when this one means "to talk"?
> For example I found this phrase in a podcast describing what you can do in a bar: "Вы можете прийти в бар с друзьями и поговорить с ними о чемпионате мира по хоккею, например."
> Is it wrong here using _сказать_ instead of _поговорить_?



Сказать refers to a single action, like "say". You can't say with your friends


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## Niops

This is one thing that I still have trouble with at times.  Russian verbs are the bane of my existence.  I'm going to lay down what I know as a learner, but take it with a grain of salt because I've only been studying the language for about 6 months.

You must think of every action as having 3 parts:
1 - the beginning.
2 - the doing.
3 - the successful completion.

Both 1 and 3 are instantaneous, they cannot be thought of as happening over a period of time because once they are done they are always done which means that they can take place in the past or the future, but cannot possibly happen in the present.

*1 - Past *

Я начал говорить по-русски.  (I *started* to speak in Russian.)  With this, you are focusing on the fact that you started speaking Russian as opposed to some other language.  But this construction uses perfective (начать) + imperfective (говорить) to mean "I started to speak."

*1 - Future*

Use начать conjugated + imperfective: Я начну говорить по-русски.  I will start to speak Russian.

*3 - Past*

When speaking of this, you cannot use imperfective (говорить).  Он сказал мне, что я так хорошо написал.  (He *told* me that I wrote really well.)  This, as opposed to "Он говорил мне, что я так хорошо написал.  (He *was telling* me that I wrote really well.)"  Focuses on the fact that he did it, and now it's done; it won't be occurring again.

*3 - Future*

Я скажу ему - I will tell him... then it's done, there will be no after.

*2 can happen in the past, present, and future.  It's also used frequently when an action is interrupted.* 

*Past*

Я говорил can be thought of as "I was speaking, I was saying, etc." because it's focusing on the doing and not that result of the doing.

as opposed to 

Я сказал - I said, I told, I spoke, etc.

So when someone asks "Что Вы делали с ним? (What were you doing with him?)" and you say "Я говорил ему о моем машине," it could be interpreted as "I was telling him about my car (until you interrupted me/but I didn't finish.)"

*Present*

Doesn't matter, always use говорить.

*Future*

You must ask yourself a question: Will I, or am I expecting to, complete this action successfully?  If the answer is yes, use a conjugated form of сказать (скажу, скажешь, скажут).  Otherwise, use future of быть (буду, будешь, будут) + imperfective infinitive, in this case говорить.

Hope that's helpful, or at the very least, correct and not too confusing.


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## Enquiring Mind

мы поговаривали о футболе ...  

It probably isn't helpful to try to understand _поговорить _grammatically in the context of говорить/ сказать.

Think of it like this: to chat = _поговаривать_ (imperfective)/ _поговорить (_perfective_)_


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## morzh

Enquiring Mind said:


> мы поговаривали о футболе ...
> 
> It probably isn't helpful to try to understand _поговорить _grammatically in the context of говорить/ сказать.
> 
> Think of it like this: to chat = _поговаривать_ (imperfective)/ _поговорить (_perfective_)_



There is no such thing as "поговаривать о футболе".
О футболе говорят.
Поговаривают о росте цен на овес.

"Поговаривать" means "to spread rumors", "to discuss rumors", "unconfirmed news sporadically discussed here and there".

"Поговаривают о росте цен" - "The are rumors about price hikes".
"Поговаривают, главного тренера "уйдут"" - "Scuttlebutt is, the head coach is getting the boot".


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## Enquiring Mind

Okay. Apologies if I misled anyone.


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## Saluton

morzh said:


> There is no such thing as "поговаривать о футболе".
> О футболе говорят.
> Поговаривают о росте цен на овес.
> 
> "Поговаривать" means "to spread rumors", "to discuss rumors", "unconfirmed news sporadically discussed here and there".
> 
> "Поговаривают о росте цен" - "The are rumors about price hikes".
> "Поговаривают, главного тренера "уйдут"" - "Scuttlebutt is, the head coach is getting the boot".


And it has no perfective aspect.


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## morzh

Saluton said:


> And it has no perfective aspect.



Exactly. It is thing in itself - exist only in this form. Also in the past form "поговаривали".

"Поговаривали про нее - ведьмой она была" (The rumor was - she was a witch).


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## McBabe

To make a very difficult thing in Russian simpler, is it not just a simple matter of говорить when used in the present tense (as сказать is perfective and cannot be used in the present tense) being translated into English as to speak or to say, depending what sounds natural in English (easy job for us English native speakers, not so easy for the Russian ones!), but in other tenses it is translated as to speak, and сказать as to say? 

That's the rule I always go by with говорить/сказать and it seems to work the vast majority of the time!

At least some things in Russian can be easy


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## kra

А такая конструкция правильная? 
"Вместо того, чтобы говорить ______ , надо было сказать ______ .


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## Syline

*kra
*Да, правильная.


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