# Urdu-Hindi: Average / Middling



## Faylasoof

This thread partly *here*.





> About the meaning *middle/centre*: that would translate in Urdu to _mayaan_ wouldn't it? As in _darmayaan_ - in the middle. Not as in archer's bow.


 Yes indeed!  _miyaan_ or _darmiyaan_ it is.  The archer’s bow? For that we say _kamaan_. I didn’t quite get that.



> I know we're more used to calling centre/middle _markaz, _but that doesn't kill its synonyms.


 Certainly not! I mean the synonyms shall remain, as you say. We use _markaz_ مركز  (from the Arabic rakaza   رَكَزَ ) more for things like a centre of activity, town centre, centre of trade = trade centre etc. Can also use it for a central idea.




> Could we comment on something that it was middling or average by saying it was _mayaani_? What do we call 'statistical mean/average'?


 I see why not. Middling / average is _miyaanii_ or _darmiyaanii_, as in middling price = _miyaanii_ / _darmiyaanii qeemat_

But average is more tricky. Can mean _ausaT_ or _‘aam_ – below.

Average / Middle = ausa_T_      اَوسَط 

On average =ausa_T_an    اَوسَطاً

Average = ordinary = ‘aamعام

Average standard = ‘aam may’aar عام مِیعار

Mean / average / middle / middling = miyaanah مِیانَہ   ; dar miyaahnah  دَر مِیانَہ ; mu’addal مُعَدّل; i’tidaal اِعتِدال


[<Moderation> also means اِعتِدال because you follow a mean path]

Average sum (numbers) = mu’addal-e-jama’ مُعَدّلِ جَمَع ; mu’addal-e-miizaan   مُعَدّلِ میزان ; ausaT-e-jama’    اَوسَطِ جَمَع; ausaT-e-miizaan اَوسَطِ میزان .

Average sum (money) = mu’addal-e-mablagh مُعَدّلِ مَبلَغ ; ausaT-e-mablagh    اَوسَطِ مَبلَغ.


Sum of money = _kul raqam_ كُل رَقَم = _kul naqd_ (cash only) كُل نَقد  = _miizaan-e-mablagh_ مِیزان  مَبلَغ ; _jama’-e-mablagh_ جَمَعِ مَبلَغ  .

[Just in case someone thinks I’ve invented these terms then they can always look up a decent, up-to-date Urdu dictionary. The verbs we use for <to add> are _miizaan lagaanaa_ میزان لگانا / _jama’ lagaanaa _ جَمَع لگانا …. and <amount> is _mablagh_ مَبلَغ.]

Again, what are the Modern Hindi equivalents for the above? Will be good to know.


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## BP.

No your terms don't look fresh off the invention board, most of them are _raaij_ in curent language. I was just thinking about the word *mayaan* and since it means the same as the French _moyenne_, I wondered if we could use it in all of the latter's nuances. You just reinforced what I suspected. Thanks.

One little comment though: explaining *miizaan *as a simple sum hides away some of its intricacies. It means to balance (also a weighing-balance) i.e. to account for the sums as well as the offsets. Arithmetically, this simply means there are both positive as well as negative numbers going into the sum. For accountants, this means offsetting the debit and credit sides of the account.

Now how about a translation of 'standard-deviation' while we're at the subject of statistics?


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## panjabigator

My Hindi is too weak to provide exact equivalents so we'll await Illuminatus/other replies.  I can, however, surmise a couple of them.

<saadhaaraN> means <'aam>.  <madhyaam> means "middle," as in Madhya Pradesh.  A simpler Hindi term would be <biich waalaa>.

<mutavasiT> (with a _toe_ and not a dental /T/phony) refers to middle as in middle class (<mutavasiT tabqaa>).  Can this word be used in other contexts?


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## arsham

Here is how it works in Persian
وسط vasat middle (of some place), ex. (در) وسط خانه in the middle of the house
میانگین miyāngīn (math) noun and adj average, mean; ex. average rate of inflation نرخ میانگین تورم
مرکز markaz centre
میانه miyāne Middle (in compounds) ex. پارسی میانه pārsī-ye miyāne Middle Persian, خاور میانه xāvar-e miyāne Middle East; also used as a noun as in در میانهً/اواسط دههً نود dar miyāne-ye/avāset-e dahe-ye navad in the middle of 90s (literally in the middle of the decade of 90)
معدل mo'addel used only when speaking of marks/grades, average (mark/grade)
میانی miyānī adj meaning situated between two things (in time or space)
میانگاه miyāngāh 1- in classical texts centre 2- (now) median strip (in high-ways)
miyān is also used in various compounds: 
میان شهری miyān-šahrī interurban; میان چهر miyān-chehr (bio) interphase; میان چرخند miyān-charxand mesocyclone; میانوند miyānvand infix; میان تن miyān-tan (bio)centrosome; میان پوست miyān-pūst mesoderm etc

and BTW, miyān is of Persian origin, it's attested in Middle Persian as mayān/miyān, cf. Avestan maδema middlemost


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> One little comment though: explaining *miizaan *as a simple sum hides away some of its intricacies. It means to balance (also a weighing-balance) i.e. to account for the sums as well as the offsets. Arithmetically, this simply means there are both positive as well as negative numbers going into the sum. For accountants, this means offsetting the debit and credit sides of the account.


You’re right about this. In fact, I wanted to elaborate on _miizaan_ MORE but I had already spent too much time on preparing this post – typing the terms in English, followed by their transliteration and then the Urdu _*with diacritics*_; finally checking everything to make sure I didn’t slip up! 

So, as you say _miizaan_ is a balancing act of + and - integers! 



> Now how about a translation of 'standard-deviation' while we're at the subject of statistics?


In Urdu we have:
Standard = معیار
Deviation = اِنحراف

Therefore, 

Standard deviation = معیاری اِنحراف - and this is official!


arsham, 
 
I don’t have a lot of time at the moment but, as expected, in Urdu we use words like وسط , میانه etc. same as  / similar to Persian.
 
Will come back to it later


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## Illuminatus

Busy times are back and I find it a bit hard to find time to read the entire thread. However, I will answer as much as I can.

 Yes indeed!  _miyaan_ or _darmiyaan_ it is.  The archer’s bow? For that we say _kamaan_. I didn’t quite get that.

I guess he meant the sheath/scabbard, not the bow. The bow is called Kamaan even in Hindi.

  I see why not. Middling / average is _miyaanii_ or _darmiyaanii_, as in middling price = _miyaanii_ / _darmiyaanii qeemat_

We understand _darmyaan _as during. There is a Hindi song with the line _Khwaabo.n ke darmiyaa.n ...
_ 
 But average is more tricky. Can mean _ausaT_ or _‘aam_ – below.

 Average / Middle = ausa_T_      اَوسَط 

 On average =ausa_T_an    اَوسَطاً

We understand Ausat/Ausatan and often use these words  (though not in informal speech).

For conveying the meaning of _On average, ausatan_ is the newscaster's word.

Sometimes, we may also use Aam-taur-par, which literally means _generally/usually_


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## Faylasoof

Illuminatus said:


> Sometimes, we may also use Aam-taur-par, which literally means _generally/usually_



This expression <'aam-taur-par> and their like <'aam tareeqeh se / bataur-e-'aam/ Hasb-e-ma'mool> are all quite idiomatic and used by us.


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## panjabigator

Illuminatus, would साधारणतः or सामान्यत: work well for <'aam taur par>?  I'm sure you'd almost never use them colloquially, but are they correct translations for Hindi?


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> Here is how it works in Persian
> وسط vasat middle (of some place), ex. (در) وسط خانه in the middle of the house...


In Urdu too we use وسط vasat like this.  For _house_ we use a number of synonyms, e.g. g-har, makaan, manzil. The first also conveys the meaning of <home> and not just a building. For that <makaan> is the word. 

When we want to say <middle of the house>, then we would say:

g-har ke beech = g-har ke vasat = vasat-e-mankaan = vasat-e-manzil 
-- the rule is that _ezafah_ constructions are only with Persian and Arabic words. 

So we also say: vasat-e-maah = maheene ke vasat / beech mei.n = middle of the month; vasat-e-saal = saal ke vasat / beech mei.n = middle of the year etc.



> ... and BTW, miyān is of Persian origin, it's attested in Middle Persian as mayān/miyān, cf. Avestan maδema middlemost



Absolutely! Most modern (decent) Urdu dictionaries give etymologies to the extent of telling the reader which language the word has come from.


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## arsham

Faylasoof,
interesting post, we also use manzel, but in Iran it's a formal word. Makaan is also used but only in the sense of place (or space in philosophical texts as in zamaan o makaan time and space )! I wonder whether any of the Persian neologies would be understood by Urdu speakers, especially one like miyaan-shahri?


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## Cilquiestsuens

Very interesting discussion !
There is this word in Urdu, which I hear a lot around me : *miyaana-rawii*, (= Arabic = i3tidaal) I wonder if our Lucknawi experts would use it... and I wonder if it is used in Farsi (in sabk-e hindi Farsi, I am pretty much sure it is)... Funnily, I saw in an Urdu book dating back to the beginning of the 1940's the word *darmiyaana-pan* used with the same meaning..


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## arsham

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Very interesting discussion !
> There is this word in Urdu, which I hear a lot around me : *miyaana-rawii*, (= Arabic = i3tidaal) I wonder if our Lucknawi experts would use it... and I wonder if it is used in Farsi (in sabk-e hindi Farsi, I am pretty much sure it is)... Funnily, I saw in an Urdu book dating back to the beginning of the 1940's the word *darmiyaana-pan* used with the same meaning..


 Yes it's widely used in Persian, as a matter of fact it's the equivalent of moderation (moderate attitude) as opposed to tond-ravii hard-liners' attitude/exremism (some people also use gazaaf-kaari, but it's not that widespread!)


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## Cilquiestsuens

For extremism, in modern Urdu the two words that are commonly used are : *intehaa-pasandii* or *shiddat-pasandii.*


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## Faylasoof

Arsham, 

In Urdu _makaan_ by itself is used for the actual brick-and-mortar structure. But _zamaan-o-makaan_ is used just like in Farsi!

We also use _manzil_ in other senses, including abstract / philosophical meaning, e.g. _manzil-e-takhayyul_, _manzil-e-jaanaa_, _manzil-e-maqsood_ etc.

The context of course makes it clear what the usage is.


[Some people name their home / house with a _manzil_ compound: _nishaat manzil_, _shifa manzil_, _sa’eed manzil_, _maryam manzil_ etc. 
For different floors we also use _manzil_: _pahlee manzil_ = _manzil-e-avval_ = first floor; _doosree manzil_ = _manzil-e-duvvum_ = second floor; _teesree manzil_ = _manzil-e-suvvum_ = third floor etc.]

I think _miyaan-shahri_ will give problems to those who have no Persian background. But I must say Urdu is always ready to absorb new words. So if used often it may even become part of the language!


Clico,

I think in present-day Luckhnow there will be problem if you used this expression on the street (and many others that we have discussed), but families there who can be regarded as representatives of the original Luckhnavi Urdu will have no problem - including yours truly. Incidentally, even Ghalib at times uses _i3tidaal _rather than _miyaanwavii_.

One can easily breakdown the word:

_miyaan _= middle; from _raftan_ = to go, we get _rav_

miyaanravii = i3tidaal (3 = letter 3ayn).


…. and _darmiyaanapan_ does hurt my sensibilities !


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## BP.

I'm not contesting any of the above explanations, just trying to augment them.

_makaan_ literally means spatial location. Its funny enough that we had this concept of _zamaan-o-makaan_ - space-time plane - before Einstein gave us relativity!

People often use _makaan_ (in Urdu) for 'house' i.e. the physical structure as Fayla said. Synonyms like _khaana_, _ghar_ etc don't evoke that image of brick and mortar as much.

Nowadays, _manzil_, when not referring to a house, has come to imply _manzil-e-maqSood_ i.e. destination. Otherwise in a house a _manzi_l is a storey. Or you could name your house _arsham-manzil_. Curiously, fewer people actually baptize their houses nowadays.

We could construct up a synonym for _inteha-pasandi_ along the lines of '_mayaanaraw_i' ('walking in the middle'). What's the extremities of a path called? _kagaar_? _lab_? They'd make for hilarious words so its probably best to settle for _inheha/shiddat-pasandi_ (extreme-liking) or _tund-rawi_.

Alternatively:
What would be the antonym of _tund_ (sharp) (e.g. _tund-mizaaj_ - easily ired, _baad-e-tund _- strong winds)? 'Blunt' would be _kund_ or _goThal_ (I'm sure none of you would have heard of this). 'Mild' would be _dheema_, _haola_. _kund/dheema-rawi_ makes no sense either.

Illumin brings in a good example of _darmayaan_ used in the temporal sense. But I can't bring myself to think of an example of _darmayaan_ used for 'during' other than 'an intervention during/while' e.g. _darmayaan mai.n na bolo_ - don't interject [while somebody's speaking]. We sometimes misuse _darmayaan_ when _baahami_ is intended e.g. _un ka darmayaani faaSla_ - the distance between them.

My apologies for the cluttered ideas.


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## Faylasoof

Here are examples of darmiyaan / darmiyaa.n used in a temporal sense:

_sunaa fasaana-e-hastii to *darmiyaa.n* se sunaa_
_nah ibtidaa kii khabar nah intihaa ma3loom_


kisii kii aabbeetii / savaaneH 3mrii / savaaneH Hayaat / *darmiyaan *se bayaan karnaa

To relate somebody’s biography from the middle

koi saaniHah *darmiyaan* se bataanaa

To tell / relate an incident from the middle

Otherwise we use a word like *dauraan* for during / while / in the middle of (temporally speaking).




BelligerentPacifist said:


> Its funny enough that we had this concept of _zamaan-o-makaan_ - space-time plane - before Einstein gave us relativity!


I do not wish to digress from the thread but as you raised the issue, many of the Islamic philosophers did look into these ideas a while ago, e.g. conception of time by Mir Damad and others – can’t discuss it here. Also, some of our poets / writers were also able reach great heights of imagination! As a different but even more impressive example is Mirza Dabir’s following verse when describing the speed of a fast horse. He says:

_raftaar woh raftaar keh sinn baRh nahii saktaa!_
(A speed so fast that one stops ageing!)

[In Urdu, raftaar = speed; sinn = 3umr = age]

How on earth did this Urdu poet writing in mid 19th century Luckhnow come up with the relation between speed / velocity and time?! Einstein had yet to say anything about this – at least publicly.


… and here are some antonyms you may wish to consider: 

<tundravii>. antonym. <kajravii> 

<tund mizaaj> antonym. <narm mizaaj>



> My apologies for the cluttered ideas.


…but delivered with *miyaanravii o i3tidaal.*


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## arsham

I don't know about Urdu, but as I mentioned in a previous post tond-ravii (or tund-ravii as you pronounce it) is the antonym of miyaane-ravii, kaj-ravi would rather mean deviation (from morality or a set of norms)


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## BP.

I too think that the prefix *kaj*- means to stray. E.g. *kaj-behethi* is doing _taaweelai.n_ and *kaj-rawi* is veering off course. Similarly we have the word _*kaji*_ - waywardness.


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## Faylasoof

Arsham,

The pronunciation of  تُند  is the same in Urdu and Farsi. I think the misunderstanding is due to some rules of transliteration we had agreed upon before you joined us. So my _tund_ = your _tond_. In our script it is as I show.

  Comparing the meanings of the various words we are talking about, I do notice that some words we use the same way but others not. At least not quite the same way. Mentioned below is how these words are used in Urdu, including some <neologisms> that only later dictionaries have:

تُند رَوی  = تیزرفتاری = تیز روی = have a fast pace /  fast, regular paced motion

كَجروی = كج راہی  = be unprincipled, _have irregular motion, walk in odd ways _

سُسترفتاری =سُستروی  = آہستگی = slow paced

*مِیانہ روی = اعتدال = اوسط چال** = moderation / medium paced motion*

BP, 

I know what you are saying but I located the less than common meaning of  كَجروی as above a while back. I have to say I have always associated كَجروی with <being unpricipled, followinga crooked path etc.> So this I found .. well, interesting.

Strictly speaking: <ُُتُند رَوی > antonym <ُسترفتاری> - in Urdu only, and سُستروی  btw is not found in earlier dictionaries.

PS:_ Please read the Urdu, as usual, from right to left,i.e. the main word is the one on the right of the list. I have had trouble moving them the other way round for your ease!_


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