# Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die"



## sniehof

Good morning everyone,

I am making a little painting for my friend who has a strong greek background. One of her favorite quotes is from a poem titled Charge of the Light Brigade by Alfred Lord Tennyson during the Crimean War. I thought putting it in Greek would be much more unique than in english. I don't trust google translate to do the job correctly. 

The lines I want to translate are: "Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die". 

I really want to make sure it is correct so any and all help is appreciated. Thank you in advance!


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## apmoy70

Ι found the verse translated into Greek, online:
«Εκείνοι, όμως, δεν μπορούσαν να αντιδράσουν, δεν τους έπεφτε λόγος να ρωτήσουν, έπρεπε μόνο να πολεμήσουν και να πεθάνουν»


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## sniehof

apmoy70 said:


> Ι found the verse translated into Greek, online:
> «Εκείνοι, όμως, δεν μπορούσαν να αντιδράσουν, δεν τους έπεφτε λόγος να ρωτήσουν, έπρεπε μόνο να πολεμήσουν και να πεθάνουν»



Thank you so much!!


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## Scholiast

Greetings, all


apmoy70 said:


> «Εκείνοι...κτλ»


Perfectly fine, though (if I may say so), it sounds a tad prosaic to me. But I do wonder whether sniehof (OP) would prefer it in classical, rather than this modern, Greek. If the preference is for the classical, it can in principle be done, though I might have to mull it over for a day or two.

Σ


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## sniehof

Scholiast said:


> Greetings, all
> 
> Perfectly fine, though (if I may say so, it sounds a tad prosaic to me). But I do wonder whether sniehof (OP) would prefer it in classical, rather than this modern, Greek. If the preference is for the classical, it can in principle be done, though I might have to mull it over for a day or two.
> 
> I would love to see the difference in classical versus modern Greek. This painting I am doing has no time frame so please take as long as you need! I really appreciate the extra effort you’re willing to put in for me. I will definitely be posting a picture once I finish the painting!
> 
> Σ


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## Scholiast

Hi sniehof, καὶ πάντες φίλοι.

Here's a preliminary suggestion—it's an intriguing challenge, which has kept me up!

κεινοῖς οὐ μὲν ἐδεῖ γ᾽ ἀποκρίνεσθαι, οὐδὲ λογίζειν:

πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἐδεῖ, κεινοῖς πρέπον, ἤδε θάνειν.

Corrections or improvements from others here would of course be very welcome.

Yes these are meant to be 'Homeric' hexameters (which are appropriate to the tone and substance of Tennyson),* and there is an ugly hiatus in the first line, and some other liberties (but Homer did this too from time to time).

What do the Greek experts think?

Σ

*Rather, an elegiac couplet.


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## bearded

A fantastic performance, Scholiast!  Some remarks and questions from a person who studied Ancient Greek (language and metrics) many many years ago:
Can't you use an apostrophe between ge and apo-, like g'apokrinesthai?
Is the final syllable -sthai short or suitable to be used as short? And is the first iota in logizein really long?
And a grammatical doubt: all infinitives are present infinitives, except for thanein which is aorist infinitive...Is that just for metric reasons? Or do you mean one can die only once..
What you call 'elegiac couplet' (hexameter+pentameter) would be a _distico elegiaco _in Italian.


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## Scholiast

Thanks bearded for the compliment, Yes, I'm not yet 100% happy with the end of the first line, with the clumsy elision (-εσθ(αι) οὐδἐ...). Yes, the iota in λογἰζειν really is long, because zeta counts as a double consonant (phonetically, 'sd').

Point entirely taken about the apocope of γε before a vowel, thank you for drawing attention to this. Ι have already edited in this amendment. As I said in my previous note, this is work in progress, not yet the finished article, and all suggestions for improvement are gratefully received.

Σ


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## Scholiast

I've been unable to stop scratching at this.

This version gets rid of the redundant γε but retains the metrical integrity, and corrects a a couple of mistakes of accentuation, and one of grammar:

οὐ μὲν ἔδει κεἰνους ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογισἀσθαι·

πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει, κεἰνοις πρέπον, ἤδε ἀποθνἠσκειν.

Σ


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## Perseas

Hello everyone,



Scholiast said:


> οὐ μὲν ἔδει κεινοῖς ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογισἀσθαι·
> 
> πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει, κεινοῖς πρέπον, ἤδε ἀποθνἠσκειν.


It's a very good try, Scholiast, congratulations!
I 'd like to write something, if you don't mind.

1. I believe it should be "κε*ί*νοις", "λογ*ί*σασθαι", "ἠδ*έ*" and ἀποθν*ῄ*σκειν".
2. About the second line: "ἔδει" and "πρέπον" have both the meaning of "obligation". Don't you think that there' s a pleonasm, if you have both of them?


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## Scholiast

Hello Perseas, and thank you both for your appreciation and for your corrections.

Yes, I shall correct the accents, you are right on all three counts. My understanding and feeling is that while there may be a degree of overlap, ἔδει and πρἐπον have slightly different nuances. ἔδει is about 'necessity' or 'duty' or 'obligation', whereas πρἐπον is what is 'seemly' or 'fitting' or 'appropriate'. And in my own syntactical construal, while ἔδει is impersonal, πρἐπον is a participle in apposition to the substantivised πράσσειν at the start of the line. In any case, there is in classical Greek literature, both prose and verse, less inhibition about mild redundancy anyway than most of us have today.

But thank you all the same. So here it is again, with the latest batch of corrections:

οὐ μὲν ἔδει κείνους ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογἰσασθαι·

πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει, κείνοις πρέπον, ἠδὲ ἀποθνῄσκειν.

Σ

Edited afterthought: any feeling of redundancy in the second line is partly mitigated by the fact that δεῖ governs the accusative, πρέπει the dative.


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## Scholiast

Spotted another error on my part (metrical). Please note the change to the last word:

οὐ μὲν ἔδει κείνους ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογἰσασθαι·

πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει, κείνοις πρέπον, ἠδὲ τελευτᾶν.

Σ


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## sniehof

I would like to thank you all for helping translate these few lines to Ancient Greek. As I have been following along through the different modifications, I have had to look up a lot of terms to be able to grasp what you guys are talking about. I have learned more than a thing or two along the way. Scholiast I want to especially thank you for putting in the time and effort to ensure the translation is correct. I had little to no expectation when I joined this forum, but I will definitely highly recommend it in the future. You guys are fantastic!


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## Scholiast

Greetings all

It has been an absorbing challenge, and of course I am grateful to bearded and Perseas for their help with arrival at what now to me looks like an acceptable version. And I have taken the liberty of consulting a Professor of Greek just to check that everything is in order, but not heard back from him yet. But 'chat' is against the rules of WR, and if you want it sent in an alternative format, or a more stylish font, I suggest you contact me by Private Message, sorry, they are 'Conversations' these days.

Σ


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## bearded

Sniehof
I saw your thread in the German forum,  asking for translation of the same text to German (one of the replies there is from me), but now I'd be curious to know (since you talk about painting, designing and tattooing) which language you are really interested in for your  project.  I hope I'm not too much off-topic with this question.


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## apmoy70

Scholiast said:


> Spotted another error on my part (metrical). Please note the change to the last word:
> 
> οὐ μὲν ἔδει κείνους ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογἰσασθαι·
> 
> πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει, κείνοις πρέπον, ἠδὲ τελευτᾶν.
> 
> Σ


Scholiast, that is trully amazing!
And you're right about the prosaic style of the poem in my previous post, it's just an online free translation, Tennyson's poems have been translated by Glyceria Papageorgiou (Γλυκερία Παπαγεωργίου) but unfortunately they can't be found online, they're not free (haven't read any of them personally, I have read from various reader-response critics that she's done a decent job)


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## Scholiast

εὐχαριστῶ πολύ, apmoy, for your complimentary remarks. As you will have seen from earlier posts in the Thread, it has needed some chiselling, and I am indebted to Perseas and bearded in particular for their constructive criticisms. But I think it can now stand as it is. I'm better at Latin verse-composition than Greek, but I'm now quite proud of this.

Σ

Edited afterthought: I shall look for Mme. Papageorgiou's translation next time I am in a University Library.


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## sniehof

bearded said:


> Sniehof
> I saw your thread in the German forum,  asking for translation of the same text to German (one of the replies there is from me), but now I'd be curious to know (since you talk about painting, designing and tattooing) which language you are really interested in for your  project.  I hope I'm not too much off-topic with this question.



It's no problem at all! I am an amateur tattoo artist when I'm not busy with school. I have some free time this weekend so I figured I'd challenge myself. Since I am working with this quote for the painting in Ancient Greek, I have really looked into the Crimean War and more about the meanings behind the poem. Plus I know it means a lot to my friend, so I wanted to research it even more. After looking into the poem, I started to appreciate the poem and how brave those soldiers were. I've also never tried to design a tattoo in another language, and Niehoff is very German, so I wanted to give it a shot!


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## Scholiast

Hello everyone, after further thought and consultation, I have decided to go along with Perseas' objection (# 10) to the second line, which was echoed by one of the experts I showed it to. Here's the latest recension:

οὐ μὲν ἔδει κείνους ἀντειπεῖν, οὐ λογίσασθαι·
πράσσειν μᾶλλον ἔδει κείνους, ἠδὲ θάνειν.

As you will see, it has reverted to being an elegiac couplet, but this is the form after all of Simonides' epitaph for the Spartans at Thermopylae.

Σ


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## bearded

An admirable elegiac couplet, Scholiast.  I particularly appreciate its perfect metrics.
Only remark/question: all infinitives are aorist infinitives, except for 'prassein' which is a present infinitive. I wonder if that difference is acceptable or rather it has a particular meaning in the context...


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## Scholiast

Thanks, bearded, for your compliments (# 20). Yes, πράξαι would also work. But (at least as I was taught) outside the indicative, the choice of tense in Greek poetry is, if not exactly arbitrary, certainly often metrically determined, or for euphony. There is, strictly, an aspectual element, of course, but would this have worried Euripides?

Σ


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