# FR: I'll never forgive him



## 盲人瞎馬

Hello,

Is the translation of "I'll never forgive him" "Je ne le pardonnerai jamais" or "Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais"? 
I see both are possible, which made me confused.

Thanks.


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## ppp123

i think Je ne le lui pardonnerai jamais. is better than Je ne le pardonnerai jamais
Je ne le pardonnerai jamais sounds strange to me... dont even know if it is correct actually...


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## AmaryllisBunny

Well according to the WR dictionary as well as Le Petit Robert, it should be "je ne lui pardonnerai jamais," because "pardonner" can't take a person as a direct object, only the "act" (that is being forgiven)–e.g., "*pardonnez-leur*, car ils ne savent pas ce qu'ils font" (Rey 1804).

"Je ne pardonne point *aux hommes* d'action de ne point réussir" *Flaubert*


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## ppp123

therefore it should be "Je ne le lui pardonnerai jamais." no?


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## AmaryllisBunny

ppp123 said:


> therefore it should be "Je ne le lui pardonnerai jamais." no?



Yes, that would be better. You are the native French speaker, not me (I)  .


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## 盲人瞎馬

AmaryllisBunny said:


> "Je ne pardonne point *aux hommes* d'action de ne point réussir" *Flaubert*



So the "à" is omitted and it is actually "je ne à lui pardonnerai jamais"? I don't understand.


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## AmaryllisBunny

Not exactly.... Since _à qqn_ means that _qqn_ is an indirect object, you must use the "COI"–complément d'objet indirect–i.e., lui.


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## 盲人瞎馬

AmaryllisBunny said:


> Not exactly.... Since _à qqn_ means that _qqn_ is an indirect object, you must use the "COI"–complément d'objet direct–i.e., lui.



Dude, slow down with the jargon. What does COI mean?


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## AmaryllisBunny

It is stated *right afterwards* "complément d'objet direct."

E.g.:
J'ai donné le tableau à ma mère. -> Je le lui ai donné. The COD–Complément d'objet direct, being "le" (replacing "le tableau") and the COI–complement d'objet direct, being "lui" (replacing "ma mère").


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## 盲人瞎馬

I understand what you mean, but I fail in comparing your example phrase to "Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais". There is no COD there, only a COI.


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## Maître Capello

AmaryllisBunny just made a typo: COD = complément d'objet direct / COI = complément d'objet indirect.

_Je ne le pardonnerai jamais._  → _Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais._ 
_J'ai donné le tableau à ma mère. / Je le lui ai donné._


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## 盲人瞎馬

I still don't get it. Which word is the direct object in the phrase "_Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais_"? There's only the indirect object.


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## Maître Capello

There is *no* direct object in your original sentence; there is only an indirect object.


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## 盲人瞎馬

Why? Because of the verb pardonner or a specific construction?


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## Maître Capello

Because the construction of _pardonner_ must follow the model _pardonner (qqch) *à* qqn_. You cannot say _pardonner qqn_.


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## 盲人瞎馬

So the à is simply omitted?


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## Maître Capello

No, it's just the opposite: the _à_ is required.


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## 盲人瞎馬

Ok, sorry. So, what you're saying is that the sentence was written wrong and it should be "_Je ne à lui pardonnerai jamais._"?


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## Maître Capello

Ah, now I see the source of your confusion: the pronoun _lui_ already includes the preposition _à_.

_Je ne pardonnerai jamais *à* mon frère._

but: _Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais._ (_lui = *à* mon frère_)


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## snarkhunter

Hello,

"lui" is a *pronoun* here, which explains why there is no noun following.
But "à" is only a *preposition*, which makes a following noun mandatory.

This is the reason for such a difference between the two sentences.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

There can be two objects, though: "Je ne lui pardonnerai jamais cela.", ("I'll never forgive him for that"), n'est-ce pas?


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## snarkhunter

Yes. And it can also be put "Je ne le lui pardonnerai jamais.", which means you would then have _two pronouns_.


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## AmaryllisBunny

The confusion seems to be that in English, we say, 'forgive _somebody_ *for* _something_' whereas in French it is more of forgiving _something_ "of" _somebody_. The result is the same, but the structures differ slightly.

Although it seems instinctive, the correct form is "Je ne [le] lui pardonnerai jamais."


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