# Welsh: negative relative clauses



## Curt Jugg

Can anyone help me (a beginner) with these two queries about negative relative clauses in Welsh, please?

1) The sentence “Those are the men who were not working” can be translated into Welsh as “Dyna’r dynion nad oeddynt yn gweithio”, using the literary form of the auxiliary verb. A more colloquial translation would be “Dyna’r dynion oedd ddim yn gweithio”. There “nad” is replaced by “ddim”, and the singular form of the auxiliary verb is used with a plural subject. However, I have also come across a third way of translating which would be “Dyna’r dynion nad oedden nhw’n gweithio”. Here the colloquial form of the auxiliary verb is used but the pronoun “nhw” is included as well. My question is: Can this pronoun be omitted without changing the meaning?

2) I have read more than once that where na(d) is used as a relative pronoun the verb must be in the plural form with a plural subject, unlike with the affirmative where a singular form is used. However, two grammars I have consulted are at variance with this:
“Gramadeg Cymraeg Cyfoes” (1998) has on page 76 the sentence “Mae’r plant (nad) aeth ddim ar drip yr ysgol wedi cael mynd adre’n gynnar”; and “Welsh Grammar You Really Need to Know” (2013) has on page 10 the phrase ”y plant na ddaw”. Both of these show plural subjects with singular verbs and with na(d) as the relative pronoun. What is the actual position on this point?

Grateful for any help.


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## Welsh_Sion

Currently on a big translation project. Apologies. Calling in @Tegs


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## Tegs

Helo Siôn a Curt  



Curt Jugg said:


> “Dyna’r dynion nad oedden nhw’n gweithio”. Here the colloquial form of the auxiliary verb is used but the pronoun “nhw” is included as well. My question is: Can this pronoun be omitted without changing the meaning?


You can't omit the pronoun there. It would leave you with _Dyna'r dynion nad oedden yn gweithio, _and the omission of _nhw_ makes it sound as though you're trying to use the more formal version _oeddent_ but you're not sure of the verb conjugation and you got it a bit wrong. 

You always need the "nhw" with the informal verb forms. Roedden nhw, doedden nhw ddim, aethon nhw, nawn nhw etc.


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## Welsh_Sion

Quick addition: _Gramadeg Cymraeg Cyfoes_ is not to be recommended as it uses _Cymraeg Byw_ forms. If you are learning a particular dialect form (Southern Welsh with Hugo, if I remember rightly) stick to this. Although I am a Northerner, my prejudices only extend so far as to not exposing people to _Cymraeg Byw_ - an artificial construct no native speaker speaks.


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## Curt Jugg

Many thanks for your helpful replies, Siôn and Tegs.


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