# Etymology: φλιτζάνι, fincan, فنجان



## Nikola

*φλιτζάνι Greek,fincan Turkish,فنجان  Arabic and Persian*
Does anybody know the etymology, which language is the origin of this word? Arabic and Persian=finjan


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## Chazzwozzer

The origin of the word is not Turkish and not possibly Greek, either. Turkish _fincan_ must have been borrowed from either Arabic or Persian. The etymology dictionary doesn't suggest the certain origin. It, however, says _pingān _in Persian means bowl.


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## linguist786

Well what does it mean, first of all?


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## ayed

linguist786 said:


> Well what does it mean, first of all?


A coffee cup


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## Frank06

Hi,


Chazzwozzer said:


> The origin of the word is not Turkish and not possibly Greek, either. Turkish _fincan_ must have been borrowed from either Arabic or Persian. The etymology dictionary doesn't suggest the certain origin. It, however, says _pingān _in Persian means bowl.


According to my dictionary, finjan is Persian, but -- and this is a wild guess -- the Persian word pingân seems to suggest the form 'finjan' is a reloan from Arabic, following the pattern P. *P*arsi > Ar. *F*arsi > P. *F*arsi.
This Greek dictionary gives 'αραβ.' for φλιτζάνι.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## ayed

I have just checked it and found "Finjan" is Arabized from "bincan/Pincan".


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## Nikola

Thanks everyone so it is Persian/Farsi.


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## Spectre scolaire

Frank06 said:
			
		

> a wild guess -- the Persian word pingân seems to suggest the form 'finjan' is a reloan from Arabic


If there is a Pers. word ‘finjan”, this rather seems to suggest a _Rückwanderer_ from Turkish – not from Arabic. 

Here is a possible scenario:

You’ll find _pingân_ in a Persian dictionary with the meaning of (both) “a bowl”.and “a cup”. Since there is no /p/ phoneme in Arabic, it was substituted by Arabic /f/ [cf. Hebrew פלשתינה[Pleshet] > Greek Παλαιστίνη > Latin *P*alestina > Arabic *F*alastīn], and the palatalized Persian [g’] being necessarily realized, according to Arabic phonology, as [dzh] [cf. the English _j_ sound as in “just”], Pers. pingân became in Arab. the exact correspondance of the Turkish form _fincan_ which (of course) is a loan from Arabic. [Turkish c is the letter used to denote Eng. j]. In Turkish you also find f*ı*ncan (due to word-internal vowel harmony) and fi*l*can, the [l] form being a Turkish development, cf. the Arabic _Rückwanderer_ *فلجان*! As there are thousands of loanwords from Turkish in Modern Persian, it is not unlikely that a word *فنجان* might be among them. The Greek word is a loan from Turkish, cf. φλιτζάνι, the metathesis being a Greek development. The non-metathesized form φιλτζάνι also exists in Greek, but is less common. The writing φλ*υ*τζάνι is often seen – clearly a hellenization of the word [the letter υ, although pronounced as _, being considered as something typically Greek].__

After this diaphragmatic exercise I wonder when we’ll see a pay-back of all these cultural loans..._


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## Qcumber

Finjan, in its various adaptations to local phonologies, is found as far as South-East Asia and East Africa, which tells a lot about the success of Persian chinaware over a vast area.


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## divinelight

Spectre scolaire said:


> As there are thousands of loanwords from Turkish in Modern Persian, it is not unlikely that a word *فنجان* might be among them.


 
Could you please give more examples of Turkish words in Modern Persian, cuz I always thought it was the other way around, i.e. there's a lot of Persian words in Turkish language.


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## jazyk

> Well what does it mean, first of all?


Then Polish has something similar: filiżanka.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Spectre scolaire said:


> If there is a Pers. word ‘finjan”, this rather seems to suggest a _Rückwanderer_ from Turkish – not from Arabic.


 There is no 'if' in this part of the story, Persian does have فنجان.


> Here is a *possible *scenario


It might be a _possible_ scenario indeed. But nothing in the scenario suggests that a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic.




> As there are thousands of loanwords from Turkish in Modern Persian, it is not unlikely that a word





> *فنجان* might be among them.



I know a few Turkish words in Persian, but this is the first time I read about 'thousands' of them. I am curious about those vast amounts of Turkish words in Persian.



> After this diaphragmatic exercise I wonder when we’ll see a pay-back of all these cultural loans...


Don't let e.g. France wait too long for the payback of all the loans in Turkish from French . Nah, seriously, the idea of loanwords being 'cultural loans' strikes me as quite odd.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

> Originally Posted by *Frank06*
> It might be a _possible_ scenario indeed. But nothing in the scenario suggests that a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic.


 
Greece had been a part of the Turkish Empire for 400 years. So a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic since Greeks borrowed Arabic words via Turkish, not directly from arabian deserts, Nah ?


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## Frank06

Hi,


> Originally Posted by *Frank06*
> It might be a _possible_ scenario indeed. But nothing in the scenario suggests that a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic.





avok said:


> Greece had been a part of the Turkish Empire for 400 years. So a (re-)loan from Turkish is more likely than a re-loan from Arabic since Greeks borrowed Arabic words via Turkish, not directly from arabian deserts, Nah ?


We can only talk about _re-loans_ if the word originally would have been _Greek_, and I guess we all agree that this is not the case at all. So far, I think all the sources and members here agree that the original word was Persian pingân. I think we also agree that this Persian word entered Arabic, but since Arabic doesn't have /p/, the loanword in Arabic starts with an /f/.
That the Greek word *φλιτζάνι* is a loan from Turkish (plus Greek changes) would be more than normal (though I start to wonder where the Polish word comes from).
But I was not referring to the Turkish-Greek connection, but to the Persian > Arabic > (*Turkish??*) > Persian connection, as suggested by Spectre Scolaire in post #8.



> If there is a Pers. word ‘finjan”, this rather seems to suggest a _Rückwanderer_ from Turkish – not from Arabic.



Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

> I wasn't referring to the Turkish-Greek connection, but to the Persian > Arabic > (*Turkish??*) > Persian connection.


 
OK,  I see  

But the connection you mention may well be true... As Ottomans served coffe inside "fincans" maybe persians (our neighbours) were introduced (turkish) coffe with "fincans" and they started to use the word finjan along with pingan.... And maybe they use the word finjan solely for the bowl out of which they drink turkish coffee and use pingan as a general word for all kind of bowls... If that is the case then it is definitely Persian > Arabic > *Turkish* > Persian 

Groetjes


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## Spectre scolaire

Frank06 said:
			
		

> Nah, seriously, the idea of loanwords being 'cultural loans' strikes me as quite odd.


If you borrow a cultural practice – it could be anything from religion to tea drinking, weaponry to clothing – you often borrow the word with which the new concept is associated, or you make a new word in your own language that translates the concept, a so-called _calque_. You may dislike cultural loans, but unless you live in a tub like Diogenes, you can hardly avoid social and linguistic conventions resulting from interaction between cultures.

I don’t think your fellow countryman Louis Deroy says anything about Diogenes, but he does say a lot about loanwords in general. _L’emprunt linguistique_ is still a good read even if the book is 50 years old. 

There are cases in which cultural loans are frowned upon because they generated in a culture which is considered to be inferior. But ordinary people don’t think in such terms. “Inferiority” is often invented in hindsight; the important thing is what counts as prestigious at the time of the “borrowing”.




			
				Frank06 said:
			
		

> I know a few Turkish words in Persian, but this is the first time I read about 'thousands' of them. I am curious about those vast amounts of Turkish words in Persian.


The standard work to consult would be Gerhard Doerfer: _Türkische und Mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen_, Wiesbaden 1960-1975 – in _four_ volumes!

Admittedly, φλιτζάνι is not an easy treat from an etymological point of view!


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## divinelight

I asked a friend who is a native Farsi speaker, and he said that he usually says "funjan" insted of "finjan", and the word is used for "a cup" not necessarily a Turkish coffee cup.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Spectre scolaire said:


> If you borrow a cultural practice – it could be anything from religion to tea drinking, weaponry to clothing – you often borrow the word with which the new concept is associated, or you make a new word in your own language that translates the concept, a so-called _calque_.[snip]



Yes, and?
I don't understand the point of, nor the reason for this little lecture on loan words very well.




> The standard work to consult would be





> Gerhard Doerfer: _Türkische und Mongolische Elemente im Neupersischen_, Wiesbaden 1960-1975 – in _four_ volumes!



And what does Doerfer say about it?

Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

> I asked a friend who is a native Farsi speaker, and he said that he usually says "funjan" insted of "finjan", and the word is used for "a cup" not necessarily a Turkish coffee cup.


 
Yes but we generally drink a cup of "coffe"  but not a "bowl" of coffee... What does he use "pingan" for ?


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## divinelight

avok said:


> Yes but we generally drink a cup of "coffe"  but not a "bowl" of coffee... What does he use "pingan" for ?


 
I didn't mention "bowl" at all  I don't think he uses "pingan" either.


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## divinelight

Frank06 said:


> I start to wonder where the Polish word comes from


 
Let's not forget the Ottoman influence in the Balkans and Central Europe, after all they did come all the way to Vienna (though that was the end of their European expansion).


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## Frank06

Hi


avok said:


> But the connection you mention *may* well be true... As Ottomans served coffe inside "fincans" *maybe* persians (our neighbours) were introduced (turkish) coffe with "fincans" and they started to use the word finjan along with pingan.... And *maybe* they use the word finjan solely for the bowl out of which they drink turkish coffee and use pingan as a general word for all kind of bowls... If that is the case then it is *definitely* Persian > Arabic > *Turkish* > Persian


Too many _may_'s and _maybe_'s in this story to account for the _definitely_ in your conclusion, imho. The Turkish word *may* well be an Arabo-Persian loan... 

To round it up: this part is clear, I think:
1. Persian > Arabic

The next part(s) of the scenario can all be true too, they are all possible:
2a (Persian >) Arabic > Persian *and* (Persian >) Arabic > Turkish
or
2b (Persian >) Arabic > Turkish > Persian
or
2c (Persian >) Arabic > Persian > Turkish

In this Turkish etymological dictionary I found data which don't favour 2c.
What I found in (off-line) Persian dictionaries doesn't suggest scenario 2b.

Any which way, there are so many possible scenarios, and so far I didn't read one solid argument in favour one of them, only a _suggestion_ that 2a is the most proper one. 
Nevertheless, my sense for a well-constructed argument (without suggestions and without 'maybe's ) is still bigger than my curiosity .


Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

divinelight said:


> I didn't mention "bowl" at all I don't think he uses "pingan" either.


 
Yes but this was not solely for you  Because other respondants said that "finjan" in Persian means "bowl" and it is derived from (old?) Persian pingan and finjan is merely its Arabian version...But if Persians use finjan to mean a "cup" and not a bowl than it must be a coffe cup  introduced to Persians by the Turks (Ottomans) ...

In Turkish we use "fincan" just for a coffee/tea cup, not for a bowl but Persian pingan simply means a bowl as acclaimed by other respondants. So all I need to know is 
1- whether Persian pingan is still in use if so what it means
2- or finjan replaced pingan ?
3- and what do modern Persians use to mean a bowl 

If I can get the answers than I shall be happy


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## avok

Frank06 said:


> Hi
> 
> Too many _may_'s and _maybe_'s in this story to account for the _definitely_ in your conclusion, imho. The Turkish word *may* well be an Arabo-Persian loan...


 
God, you are being like a lawyer   You all *bolded* my *"maybe"s* but did not even touch my *"if "* I  said "*If* that is the case then it is *definitely."* 

For instance
"*If *he is belgian then he *definitely *knows that the capital of Belgium is Brussels. *Maybe* he is not good at geography or *maybe *he does not like history so he may not know that the capital is Brussels" 

*Maybe* you should be the editor of this forum , I would *definitely* vote for you


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## divinelight

avok said:


> Yes but this was not solely for you  Because other respondants said that "finjan" in Persian means "bowl" and it is derived from (old?) Persian pingan and finjan is merely its Arabian version...But if Persians use finjan to mean a "cup" and not a bowl than it must be a coffe cup  introduced to Persians by the Turks (Ottomans) ...


 
Now I see your argument, it makes sense and it's quite possible but there also might be a possibility that the word "pingan" (or "finjan" as re-loaned from Arabic) could have just changed its meaning with time. So now the word "pingan" in a sense of "a bowl" might be archaic. Like the word *uşak *in old Turkish means *a child *and some people still use it in that sense, but with time in conventional Turkish it came to mean *a servant. *


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## avok

divinelight said:


> Now I see your argument, it makes sense and it's quite possible but there also might be a possibility that the word "pingan" (or "finjan" as re-loaned from Arabic) could have just changed its meaning with time. So now the word "pingan" in a sense of "a bowl" might be archaic. Like the word *uşak *in old Turkish means *a child *and some people still use it in that sense, but with time in conventional Turkish it came to mean *a servant. *


 
Yes, divinelight you are right, that was what I meant right from the beginning


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## Frank06

Hi,


avok said:


> Yes but this was not solely for you  Because other respondants said that "finjan" in Persian means "bowl" and it is derived from (old?) Persian pingan and finjan is merely its Arabian version...But if Persians use finjan to mean a "cup" and not a bowl than it must be a coffe cup  introduced to Persians by the Turks (Ottomans) ...


- No, it must not be a _coffee_ cup. I don't see a reason for this coffee _idée fixe_ 
فنجان (1 in Persian means _porcelain_ dish, tea or coffee cup. 
'Coffee' nor 'tea' are the keywords here, but porcelain (as already suggested by QCumber). The Iranians I asked today all agreed upon the material, viz. porcelain. As far as I understand them, it has nothing to do with what is in the cup. So, no link between Turkish and persian via the coffee. Now, unless somebody would come up with _Turkish_ porcelain... but anyway.
2) پنگان  in Persian means bowl, cup, etc. I also asked a few native speakers, and none of them recognized it.



> So all I need to know is





> 1- whether Persian pingan is still in use if so what it means



Apparantly, it is not used anymore, though I'd love to hear the Persian speakers-members on this word.


> 2- or finjan replaced pingan ?





> 3- and what do modern Persians use to mean a bowl



كاس is used for any kind of bowl in Persian. Other words can be found here.
Otherwise said, pingan was not replaced by fincan. 


Groetjes,

Frank

PS I found the meaning of the older word pingan in this dictionary.


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## Frank06

Hi,



avok said:


> God, you are being like a lawyer


Nah, I am just reacting like somebody who is not influenced by rethoric tricks involving "maybe", "maybe", "possibly", "if" (which I overlooked, indeed) and a definite conclusion on the basis of a strong love for Turkish, or for coffee, or for Turkish coffee .
I still don't see a solid argument in the Turkish coffee thing, or in the re-loan to Persian via Turkish... Or maybe I simply don't understand it.

In short, I still don't see a solid argument for  "2b (Persian >) Arabic > _Turkish_ > Persian". And maybe (possibly) I am wrong, but I preferto be convinced by sound arguments...

Groetjes,

Frank


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## avok

Frank06 said:


> a definite conclusion on the basis of a strong love for Turkish, or for coffee, or for Turkish coffee .


 
Believe me, my love for Brazilian samba and cappuccino is much stronger than Turkish coffee


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## MarcB

Frank06 said:


> كاس is used for any kind of bowl in Persian. Other words can be found here.
> Otherwise said, pingan was not replaced by fincan.
> 
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank
> 
> PS I found the meaning of the older word pingan in this dictionary.


see this thread كاس kas and finjan فنجان are discussed in Arabic.


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## mkh

Hi
پنگان was a timer like hourglass, the differences are: pengan doesn't use  sand, but uses water and has one bulb with one hole at its bottom, as Dehkhoda says:​پنگان: 
كاسه اي مسي كه ته آن سوراخ داشت و دهقانان در گذشته از آن براي تعيين مدت زمان استفاده از آب چشمه يا قنات استفاده مي كردند. به اين طريق كه اين كاسه را روي ظرفي از آب قرار مي دادند، مدت زمان پر شدن اين كاسه ، فرصت استفاده هر دهقان از آب چشمه يا قنات بود
پنگان is not used currently in most of cities in Iran.
but فنجان is made from porcelain or glass, and uses for drinking tee, coffee, milk, etc. it is Arabic form of پنگان as Dehkhoda says:
فنجان:
معرب پنگان . از يوناني پنتاکس  . پياله کوچک سفالين ، بلورين يا چيني که در آن چاي يا قهوه خورند​


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## Asgaard

Hi,


Frank06 said:


> That the Greek word φλιτζάνι is a loan from Turkish (plus Greek changes) would be more than normal (though I start to wonder where the Polish word comes from).
> 
> Groetjes,
> Frank



I've found Albanian teacup is filxhan. (vis-a-vis Polish "filiżanka").
                Serbo-Croatian - plehan
                             Czech - plechovka


Blik, Blek, Blikken - appear in Germanic languages as Tin or Can/Cup...


_Tin/Can/Cup(er)       -  (Sn) vs (Cu) _

German - zinn

Could τζάνι be Tin (S_tanium?- Sn)?
And φλιτζάνι -  blikkpláta (sheet metal, tin plate (flat)) or  τζάνι_φλιτ)

Regards,
Asgaard


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## Sheikh_14

Knowing how finjan is pronounced in arabic could you kindly tell how it is in Turkish. Is it fin-can or fin-jan as well.


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## Ben Jamin

Spectre scolaire said:


> ... In Turkish you also find f*ı*ncan (due to word-internal vowel harmony) and fi*l*can, ...



The Turkish form fi*l*can explains the origin of the Polish form _filiżanka,_ as coming from this Turkish word (with *c* pronounced as English *j*). The *j* sound /dʒ/ becomes regularly a *ż */ʒ/ in Polish after vowels. The ending -ka is a Polish diminutive suffix. The word was imported in the times when the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth had a common border with Turkey (as it included Ukraine). Polish has quite many loanwords from Turkish, and many Poles spoke fluent Turkish in the XVII century (for example the king John III).
The connection with Czech  _plechovka_ is unlikely, and unnecessary.


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## Forero

Is this the same word (pardon my attempt at typing Hebrew):

האש מהבהבת
שירה מלבלבת
סובב לו סובב הפינג'אן

? (From the context, it seems to mean coffeepot, not cup or bowl.)


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## إسكندراني

Sheikh_14 said:


> Knowing how finjan is pronounced in arabic could you kindly tell how it is in Turkish. Is it fin-can or fin-jan as well.


In turkish c is pronounced ج
I think in old egyptian films, it is called a fingal. But maybe it's just 'random' letter switching.
it can't be originally arabic at any rate.


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## sotos

Spectre scolaire said:


> The writing φλ*υ*τζάνι is often seen – clearly a hellenization of the word [the letter υ, although pronounced as _, being considered as something typically Greek]._


<Enters Mr. Portokalos> According to the Ali Nourai, _An Etymological Dictionary of Persian, English and other Indo-European Languages_, p. 373, at Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine, the Pers. _pangan_ (>finjan etc) is related to Gr. πίναξ (board), i.e. normally something flat. Βut πίναξ > πινάκιον (plate). Μost probably _plate_ is related to the gr. πλατύς (*flat*). Now, can "flat-" turn to "flit-" in some Levantine languages? Possibly, if "pan-" and "pin-" are cognates. <Γειά μας>.


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## Abaye

Forero said:


> Is this the same word (pardon my attempt at typing Hebrew):
> 
> האש מהבהבת
> שירה מלבלבת
> סובב לו סובב הפינג'אן


Yes, Hebrew borrowed _finjan _from Arabic in the 1st half of the 20th century, but for some reason (apparently misunderstanding) uses it for the kitchenware used to prepare coffee (like Arabic جذوة, Turkish Cezve) rather than the cup used to drink coffee.


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