# Bosnian (BCS): de, deder



## sokol

Split from here.

About the particle 'de' (is this /da/ of standard language used as a relative pronoun? - just out of curiosity), to also give a short summary in English and to check if I've got this one right (and please let me know if I haven't):

_- pa dobro_ is clear to me; it is just like (in English) _well, _it doesn't have much real meaning most of the times
- _de smiri se sad _which is what WannaBeMe suggests was the original long form of this saying (which then was shortened to 'de sad') to which Duya does not object in principle but adds that the literal meaning of the phrase is not the same as what it means nowadays: this, literally, would mean that one should not think of dying right now

So *is it possible *that this probably could mean, translated _literally _into English: 'Well well, no need to think of ...' (with 'dying' being left out) and that it means in its modern use something like 'Just look on the bright side of life'?

(It certainly *is *possible that I've completely misunderstood you both as my knowledge of Bosnian is close to nonexistant.)


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## WannaBeMe

Hallo Sokole, ich benutze dieses Wort selbst, weil ich auch in Bosnien gelebt habe. Aber es ist sau schwer zu erklären was das bedeutet.
Ich kann dir nur sagen, dass man es immer mit dem Imperativ benutzt. Das Wort kommt in Wörterbüchern nicht vor. Es wird also nur koloquial benutzt.
Es wird haptsächlich benutzt von jemandem der der Obere ist, z.B: ein Vater kann seinem Sohn sagen: *Donesi de(r) mi vode* (Du sollst mir Wasser bringen). Aber wenn der Sohn dem Vater was befehlen will er darf auf keinen fall "de" benutzen weil das arrogant und unverschämlich klänge. Wenn schon Imperativ dann mit bitte und auf keinen fall de.
Es gibt aber noch ein de, aber in diesem Fall steht es vor dem Imperativ: *de donesi mi vode *(Bring doch Wasser her). Das klingt nicht so autoriter wie "*donesi de mi vode*" aber es zeigt das man es wirklich tun soll weil das notwendig oder wichtig ist.
Wenn man sagt: "*Donesi mi vode*" (Bring mir Wasser), der andere kann dir antworten mit :"*Donesi sebi sam*" (Bring dir selber) aber wenn man sagt "*De mi donesi vode*" der andere würde nicht sagen "*Uzmi sam *(Nimm selbst), weil er weiß, es könnte bedeuten, dass der andere es dringend braucht.
Und "*Donesi de mi vode*", da musst du das sofort tun, es gibt da kein, ich will-ich will nicht.

Und in dem Fall von oben: "Pa dobro de sad" hmmm, das klingt sehr seltsam, eigentlich sogar doof. Man kann eigentlich nur sagen entweder: Pa dobro sad, oder: De dobro sad, und es würde dasselbe bedeuten aber das oben würde ich nur von einer unausgebildeten Person erwarten.
Ich hoffe meine Antwort konnte dir helfen


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## sokol

Hello WannaBeMe,
as for the language used in threads I think we should stick to old forum etiquette: answering posts best is done in the language of the first post - this for the benefit of other readers (your German is quite good, but that's not the point ).
Anyway, interesting remarks on 'de', but if we were to discuss the particle 'de' in more detail (that is, if _you _were to - I only would be a reader then) we should open a new thread.


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## WannaBeMe

Oh sorry I didn´t know, I´m still new here. I did it becouse I speak German better than English and it was easyer for me to explain it in German.


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## WannaBeMe

Now I know, I was wandering why can´t I explain that "de" which was not with imperative (Pa dobro de sad). This de is not the same as "de" that I have explained.
This "de" is a short form of "hajde" I hope, you know what does it mean.
The same as in Russian: davaj;
You can say it: Pa dobro hajde sad, or: Pa dobro aj(d) sad, or: Pa dobro de sad.


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## dudasd

The interjection de/der can exist both as an independent word and dependent suffix, and it's usually treated (by linguists) as the same one. Sometimes it's multiplicated (ded, deder) or expanded (dela, dera); added as a suffix (dajder, dajde); mutilated (deh); expanded with another prefix (nuda, nuder), used as a separate intensifier (hajde de! ene de!) etc. The common opinion used to be that it had roots in the verb _*dejati* _(*to do*), but some linguists are more inclined to see a crossword between _*dej* _(do) and turkish _*hayd*__*ı*._


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## TriglavNationalPark

So is the Bosnian "de" equivalent to the Slovenian "no"?

Here's how "no" is used in conversational Slovene:

Daj no daj = Come on now
Pomiri se no = Calm down
Pridi no sem = Come here
No daj mi ga = Give it (m.) to me

In other words, the role of "no" -- an interjection of encouragement, according to _Slovar slovenskega knjižnega jezika_ -- is the opposite of "ne" ("don't"). So is it the same as "de" in Bosnian, which is the opposite of "nemoj" ("don't"), as someone said?

EDIT: Or is it a closer equivalent to the Slovenian "daj" in the context seen here: "Daj pomagaj mi" ("Help me")? "Daj" sounds more like the Bosnian "de", but unlike "de", "daj" is the imperative of "dati" ("to give"). As you can tell, I'm really confused here.


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## WannaBeMe

Hmmm, you can also say "daj, uradi to" instead of "de uradi to".
But "uradi de(r)to" is not equal to "daj,uradi to", but "this de(r) just suggest that it tells to you a person who has autority, fother to son, chef to his worker, or to a slave or sth. like that.


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## WannaBeMe

dejati hmmm, I heard just delati, djelati but dejati... strange.
The first one, just de, that stands in front of a verb might have come from hajde, but the other one der,deder,absolutely not.
De uradi = hajde uradi =aj uradi
uradi de(r) not equal to uradi hajde, or sth like that.
Der can´t be derived from an verb becouse it stands behind of the main verb.
Nemoj is derived from a verb and it stands in front of the main verb.


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## dudasd

WannaBeMe said:


> dejati hmmm, I heard just delati, djelati but dejati... strange.


 
At least you must have been heard the church word "blagodejanije", it's used even now. Also the noun "blagodet" is derived from the same verb (it comes not from _dati _but from _dejati_); name Dejan and old surname Dejanović come from it as well. It was very common in middle ages, and the root is exactly the same as in the verb d(j)elati. (This is pretty off-topic, but my impression was that I should add some more information.)


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## WannaBeMe

Ok, now I remember dejati but stll it is/would be very unusual that a particle der developed from dejati/dej becouse the main verb would have the infinitive form and would be behind the main verb ( perhaps even not why futur cu,ces,ce...).
And it would have looked like: dej kazati or kazati dej (even kaza(t)dej) but two imperative next to eachother...no way...impossible. 
I´m only saying my oppinion becouse I can´t proove none of these theses.


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## TriglavNationalPark

WannaBeMe said:


> Hmmm, you can also say "daj, uradi to" instead of "de uradi to".
> But "uradi de(r)to" is not equal to "daj,uradi to"


 
I see, thanks! So "de" seems to be more or less comparable to the Slovenian "no", as I had suspected in my previous post.

BTW, is "de" unique to Bosnian or is it also used in Croatian and Serbian?


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## dudasd

The information I found are from Etimologijski riječnik hrvatskoga ili srpskoga jezika by (my favourite Slavic etymologist) Petar Skok (and he also quotes other linguists). The main supposition is that it's an imperative that utterly lost its original meaning. And once it became an interjection, of course it could be used almost anywhere in a sentence. (Compare "gle!" - it's on a verge of pure interjection, only rarely we feel it as an active verb.) My own addition on "de" would be that d in "ded" could be a remnant of the widened form (compare _dam_ and _dadem_), and that d could easily became r because of easier pronunciation (compare _borme _instead of _bogme _in Montenegro and some parts of Bosnia). The supposed crossing with Turkish _hayd__ı _would just quicken the "dying" of "dej" as an active verb, so I believe it's the most probable explanation. (Which doesn't mean that I am right, of course...)


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## musicalchef

dudasd said:


> The interjection de/der can exist both as an independent word and dependent suffix, and it's usually treated (by linguists) as the same one. Sometimes it's multiplicated (ded, deder) or expanded (dela, dera); added as a suffix (dajder, dajde); mutilated (deh); expanded with another prefix (nuda, nuder), used as a separate intensifier (hajde de! ene de!) etc. The common opinion used to be that it had roots in the verb _*dejati* _(*to do*), but some linguists are more inclined to see a crossword between _*dej* _(do) and turkish _*hayd*__*ı*._


 
Did we actually explain what this means, or did I miss something?  I think I'm just getting lost in all the theories here.  I've seen "deder" before and I was also wondering what it means.


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## Athaulf

musicalchef said:


> Did we actually explain what this means, or did I miss something?  I think I'm just getting lost in all the theories here.



Frankly, I'd say that _de_ is one of those words that it would be best for you to avoid until you become a fluent and experienced speaker. The word is used only in colloquial language, and you can always use more straightforward expressions instead. And even though it's not a bad word by itself, if you use it inappropriately, you can come off as patronizing or rude. 



> I've seen "deder" before and I was also wondering what it means.


It's another word without any straightforward English translation. It's used in a similar way as _de_. I remember reading somewhere that it developed from the repeated exclamation _"de, de!"_, and the final _r_ appeared due to epenthesis. I'm not sure if this was a serious source or just someone's folk etymology, though. 

However, note that _deder_ is usually limited to rural and uneducated language, and sounds pretty harsh (although, like many other harsh BCS expressions, it can also show affection in some contexts). This word also should be used only by advanced speakers, and even then, only with familiar people who use it themselves.


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