# BCS - Female nouns - Genitive Plural of nouns in -a



## Tassos

Is it possible to predict the nouns that will take the alternative -i ending (like *borbi* or *tetki*)? If not, can you give me some of the most important?

Thanks again.


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## Brainiac

I think "food nouns" may take that genitive plural 
kruška -> kruške, od kruški (kompot od kruški)
smokva -> smokve, od smokvi (this sounds Macedonian, but the recipe is Croatian - Pita od smokvi i rogača)
ribizla -> ribizle, ribizli
cvekla -> cvekle, cvekli
čorba -> čorbe, čorbi
torta -> torte, torti
ribizla -> ribizle, ribizli 

*****
devojka -> devojke, devojka/devojaka/devojki
tetka -> tetke, tetka/tet*a*ka ---- tetki (you may hear baba -> babe, baba/babi too)
šmizla -> šmizle, šmizla/šmizli
olovka -> olovke, olovka/olov*a*ka --- olovki
kokoška -> kokoške, kokoška/kokoš*a*ka  --- kokoški
pertla -> pertle, pertla/pertli


- Some only plural nouns:
naočare -> naočari (naočara)
pantalone -> pantaloni (pantalona), but I'm not sure for this one, the variant (plural in -i) I think it's in Croatian.


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## Anicetus

All a-nouns which take it have a stem ending in a consonant cluster, though I'm afraid it's not that predictable which of these insert an _a_ into the cluster and take the ending _-a_ and which take the ending _-i_. Note that the standard, at least the Croatian one, actually allows the genitive plural ending _-a_ for all a-nouns. Anyway, I guess words of foreign origin adopted not that long ago are less likely to break the cluster with an _a_ and are therefore more likely to have _-i_. But there are numerous non-foreign nouns which take the ending _-i_ too, like the two Tassos has given (though I'd rather say _tetaka_); for example _majki_, _lopti_ (if it were to insert an _a_ in G pl., the form would be identical to the G pl. of _lopata_), nouns formed by adding the suffix _-nja_ to a verb stem (_radnji, patnji, žudnji, strepnji, kretnji, tvrdnji_ etc.), many of the nouns formed with the suffix _-ba_ (_molbi, žalbi, predodžbi, svjedodžbi, jednadžbi_ -- even though _predodžaba, svjedodžaba_ and _jednadžaba_ is also possible). There are often more possible forms for genitive plural and their use is dialect-specific. For instance, I would say only _smokava_ and _krušaka_. The Croatian standard often prefers the forms with the inserted _a_ and the ending _-a_.


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## Brainiac

I wonder if this is only the case with fem. nouns. There is, for example
jezgro (n.) -> jezgra (pl.), od jezgra/ od jezgara / od jezgri
(Fuzija dvije jezgre lakših _od jezgri_ željeza...)


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## Tassos

Anicetus said:


> All a-nouns which take it have a stem ending in a consonant cluster, though I'm afraid it's not that predictable which of these insert an _a_ into the cluster



If I wrote that the cluster breaks for all the combos EXCEPT –st, -zd, -št, -žd, -žđ, -šć και –šč would I at least be close to the truth? For the neuters this works for me (until now that is ) (*gnijezdo-gnijezda*, but *pismo-pisama*, *staklo-stakala*, *društvo-društava*) 

Anyway for most of Iva's examples hjp gives all three alternatives (*kruška/krušaka/kruški*, *cikla/cikala/cikli* in the place of cvekla and *smokva/smokava/smokvi*). For *čorba* and *torta* (I am getting hungry...) we can say that the above rules hold if -r is not considered a consonant. For *šmizla* and *pertla* it doesn't though.... (btw what do *šmizla* and *pertla *mean?)



Anicetus said:


> and take the ending _-a_ and which take the ending _-i_.



You mean they are mutually exclusive? They *either* take the -a with extra a *or* they take the -a without extra a / -i duo?


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## Brainiac

Pictures say everything:
šmizla (girl)
braon pertle na patikama


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## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> I wonder if this is only the case with fem. nouns. There is, for example
> jezgro (n.) -> jezgra (pl.), od jezgra/ od jezgara / od jezgri
> (Fuzija dvije jezgre lakših _od jezgri_ željeza...)



I'd say it is (of course, there are masculine nouns which get *only* _-i_ in G pl., but that's a completely different story and has nothing to do with consonant clusters). _Jezgra_ is a feminine noun in Croatian, and it's obviously used as such in this example -- if it were neuter, it would be _dva jezgra_.




Tassos said:


> If I wrote that the cluster breaks for all the combos EXCEPT –st, -zd, -št, -žd, -žđ, -šć και –šč would I at least be close to the truth? For the neuters this works for me (until now that is ) (*gnijezdo-gnijezda*, but *pismo-pisama*, *staklo-stakala*, *društvo-društava*)



Maybe _-jk-_ too? _Majaka, bajaka, hajaka_ are all very unusual. I think you're right about those.



> Anyway for most of Iva's examples hjp gives all three alternatives (*kruška/krušaka/kruški*, *cikla/cikala/cikli* in the place of cvekla and *smokva/smokava/smokvi*). For *čorba* and *torta* (I am getting hungry...) we can say that the above rules hold if -r is not considered a consonant. For *šmizla* and *pertla* it doesn't though....



But there's _sestra ~ sestara_... Though now that I think about it, I really can't recall any nouns which break a consonant cluster *starting* with _r_. However, I've never heard the genitive plural with the ending _-a_ of nouns like _borba_ or _torta_ pronounced with a syllabic _r_ -- _bórbā_ and _čórbā_ consist of only two syllables. Maybe the _r_ used to be syllabic, but then stopped being so?



> You mean they are mutually exclusive? They *either* take the -a with extra a *or* they take the -a without extra a / -i duo?



Yes, that's often the case. I meant to say that not all nouns whose stem ends in a consonant cluster could get the extra _a_, and it's these nouns, those which can't get the extra _a_, that usually get _-i_. But as you've seen yourself, the standard allows much freedom here (unlike in many other things). Which forms are used more varies from region to region -- for example, I'd always choose the forms _djevojaka, olovaka, mačaka_ and I've never heard _babi_ as G pl. of _baba_.

I know I sound a bit confusing, but genitive plural is probably morphologically the most complex grammatical case in BCMS. Some nouns in (i)jekavian are known to have four standard G pl. forms, such as _pripovijetka_ -- _pripovijedaka, pripovjedaka, pripovijetka, pripovijetki_.


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## Tassos

Anicetus said:


> I know I sound a bit confusing, but genitive plural is probably morphologically the most complex grammatical case in BCMS. Some nouns in (i)jekavian are known to have four standard G pl. forms, such as _pripovijetka_ -- _pripovijedaka, pripovjedaka, pripovijetka, pripovijetki_.



And just think that I haven't mentioned the body parts nouns who take -u (ruka-ruku, noga-nogu for example)


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## Anicetus

And _sluga ~ slugu_. Those are actually old genitive dual forms. Because you have two arms, two legs and, well, two servants.


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