# Subordinate Clause with Preposition



## Flaminius

Shalom Chaverim!

אותיות עבריות הקדומות לא בדיוק דומות למה שמשתמשים הים.

I believe I wrote more or less accurately, "The ancient Hebrew letters are not exactly the same with what are used today."  I would like to know how come using -ב is not necessary anywhere in the subordinate clause.


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## elroy

The English should read, "the same *as* what *is* used today."

I'm not sure I understand your Hebrew question.


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## amikama

Flaminius said:


> *ה*אותיות *ה*עבריות הקדומות לא בדיוק דומות למה שמשתמשים הי*ו*ם.


I think a better translation would be like this:
.האותיות העבריות הקדומות לא בדיוק דומות לאותיות שמשתמשים בהן היום

If I got your question about -ב correctly, I think that -ב is necessary after the verb להשתמש. Omitting "בהן" in the given sentence would make it less natural, IMHO.


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## Nunty

Hi Flaminius,

For what it's worth, I confirm Amikama's rewrite. Is it a sentence that you saw written somewhere?

Elroy, since the verb להשתמש takes the preposition -ב, Flam was asking why the sentence he gave didn't have that preposition.


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## elroy

Flam, did you find that sentence somewhere, or did you write it yourself?  I would have also used the ב, probably because prepositions in subordinate clauses work exactly the same way in Arabic.


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## Flaminius

> Is it a sentence that you saw written somewhere?


I found the part "דומות למה שמשתמשים היום" in my old textbook and made a sentence by myself.

So, if a verb takes a preposition, it cannot be elipted even in a relative clause?

PS:
Sorry I didn't explain my question clearly in the first post.


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## Nunty

Flaminius said:


> I found the part "דומות למה שמשתמשים היום" in my old textbook and made a sentence by myself.
> 
> So, if a verb takes a preposition, it cannot be elipted even in a relative clause?



I really hate it when text books are wrong.  Is it a _very_ old one?

Yes, I think it's best to assume that normally verbs keep their prepositions wherever they pop up in a sentece. I'm weak on grammatical terms, but my rules of thumb seem to stand me in good stead most of the time.


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## elroy

If Hebrew is anything like Arabic as far as this is concerned (and I have a hunch it is), then prepositions can never be left out in a relative clause.


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## Flaminius

Ah, can I ask a final question?  I understand it is possible to move the suffixed preposition to immediately after the relative clause marker -ש.  Which construction is more common between preposition staying in its place and it getting moved upward until immediately after -ש?

In other words, which is more common between 1 and 2?
1. האותיות שבהן משתמשים היום
2. האותיות שמשתמשים בהן היום​


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## amikama

Flaminius said:


> In other words, which is more common between 1 and 2?
> 
> 1. האותיות שבהן משתמשים היום
> 2. האותיות שמשתמשים בהן היום​


IMHO they are more or less equally common.


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## elroy

This is an interesting difference between Hebrew and Arabic. In Arabic, #2 is by far more common. #1 would sound poetic, i.e. awkward in everyday speech.


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## Flaminius

Toda le-kulam!


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