# It's not over till the fat lady sings



## ernestina

*It is not over until the fat lady sings*
Hallo, qualcuno può per favore illuminarmi sul significato di questo detto in BE? Non l'ho mai sentito prima...

Grazie 

Ernestina


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## Kleine Hexe

ernestina said:


> *It is not over until the fat lady sings*
> Hallo, qualcuno può per favore illuminarmi sul significato di questo detto in BE? Non l'ho mai sentito prima...
> 
> Grazie
> 
> Ernestina


 
Dai un'occhiata a questo:

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/It's+not+over+until+the+fat+lady+sings


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## valaulnoy

The phrase comes from the opera.  At the end of most operas, there would always be a big (fat) soprano woman singing a really high note.  When the audience saw the big soprano on stage singing the high note, they knew the opera was over.  That is why we say it's not over until the fat lady sings.  It's a very common phrase in English.


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## Arrius

An alternative in American English is "It ain't over till it's over", (Dum spiro, spero).


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## ernestina

Grazie Kleine Hexe, anche il contesto dell'esempio è proprio quello che si adatta.


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## Arrius

The lady in question may well be an opera singer, *valaulnoy*, but the saying refers to an American football or baseball game which ends with the fat lady singing a patriotic song.


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## anghiarese

No, songs are usually sung before games rather than after them in the US.


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## Memimao

This is what I found: 

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ita1.htm


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## Makonnen

Does anyone know what the Italian equivalent is for "It's not over 'til the fat lady sings" - thanks in anticipation!


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## King Crimson

Makonnen said:


> Does anyone know what the Italian equivalent is for "It's not over 'til the fat lady sings" - thanks in anticipation!


 
I'm resurrecting this thread because no answer was given to the last post. In my opinion this could be translated in Italian as "non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso" o "non è finita finchè non è finita" or "non cantar vittoria troppo presto"...


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## nsartor

King Crimson said:


> I'm resurrecting this thread because no answer was given to the last post. In my opinion this could be translated in Italian as "non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso" o "non è finita finchè non è finita" or "non cantar vittoria troppo presto"...




That's fantastic  "non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso"  

Potresti darci un esempio come si usa?  

For "It's not over till the fat lady sings" a good example would be the recently signed health care bill that Obama got through.  2 months ago I would have said it was dead in the water but an optimist would have told me (correctly) that "it's not over till the fat lady sings!"

Niccolò


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## Teerex51

nsartor said:


> That's fantastic  "non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso"
> 
> Potresti darci un esempio come si usa?



It's the equivalent of _Don't count your chickens (until they've hatched)_ and, in my opinion, just a very distant relative of the _Fat Lady_.


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## Blackman

Anche il famoso detto trapattoniano:

_Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco._


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## Teerex51

Blackman, what was the original saying before Trapattoni "malapropized" it? I can't remember...

For the average soccer ignoramus (like me), Coach Trapattoni is the local equivalent of the celebrated Yogi Berra. (Entire Websites have been created to collect the famous _Yogiisms_).

In fact, Yogi Berra himself has been credited with an expression similar to the "Fat Lady": "It ain't over till it's over" (which is probably even more PC)


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## Blackman

Teerex51 said:


> Blackman, what was the original saying before Trapattoni "malapropized" it? I can't remember...
> 
> For the average soccer ignoramus (like me), Coach Trapattoni is the local equivalent of the celebrated Yogi Berra. (Entire Websites have been created to collect the famous _Yogiisms_).


 
Sorry Teerex, I have no idea. I can't remember either...


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## Teerex51

Well, believe it or not, there's a couple of Google hits for Trapattonisms. http://aforismi.meglio.it/aforismi-di.htm?n=Giovanni+Trapattoni

Blackman, I've found the original: "Non dire _quattro_ se non l'hai nel sacco".


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## Blackman

Ho trovato questo, magari Trapattoni non è così fesso come pensiamo....



_L'origine del detto "Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco" mi risulta derivare dall'assedio di Chioggia da parte della Repubblica di Genova, durante il quale la Repubblica di Genova aveva assoldato un cospicuo numero di truppe dei Fieschi, il cui simbolo araldico è il Gatto, e di conseguenza il grido di guerra dei Fieschi è "Gatto! Gatto! Gatto!". Durante l'assedio, che fu lunghissimo, si evitava di gridare "Gatto!" in attesa di saccheggiare la città, da qui il detto._

Comunque, è difficilissimo mettere un gatto in un sacco. Have you ever tried?


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## Akire72

Io la so come Blackman: Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco. Mai sentita la versione con "quattro", inoltre non ha molto senso mentre con gatto ce l'ha!


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## Blackman

Akire72 said:


> Io la so come Blackman: Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco. Mai sentita la versione con "quattro", inoltre non ha molto senso mentre con gatto ce l'ha!


 
Per amor di precisione, Teerex ha ragione. La questione è quantomeno controversa. Probabilmente Trapattoni lo ha davvero inventato, riferendosi a _quattro_, ma azzeccando casualmente l'altra teoria. L'originale è con _quattro_, o almeno così è riportato dappertutto.


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## GavinW

Teerex51 said:


> It's the equivalent of _Don't count your chickens (until they've hatched)_ and, in my opinion, just a very distant relative of the _Fat Lady_.


 
Sorry, I'm a bit confused. There is no connection in meaning at all, as far as I can see, between the two sayings:
Don't count your chickens...
and:
It's not over till the fat lady sings

It wasn't clear to me whether this is what TeeRex is saying or not.
By the way, hi TeeRex! Love your posts, keep 'em coming! You're a serious boon to the IE forum!
;-)


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## Teerex51

Thanks Gavin. 
On the merits of these sayings, I fully agree with you (see post #12). What I was trying to say (following KC's post)  is I don't see _any_ connection between "the Fat Lady singing" and " selling the bear's fur".

The former is basically Yogi Berra's "it ain't over till it's over", the latter is "don't count your chickens etc.". Entirely another ballgame.


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## GavinW

Ah OK, good! Thanks for confirming there are no grounds for any confusion here. Apologies to all if I was the only one who saw the risk of confusion.
;-)


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## Teerex51

After so many mixed(-up) metaphors (and a bit of OT)  we're all excused...


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## King Crimson

Teerex51 said:


> It's the equivalent of _Don't count your chickens (until they've hatched)_ and, in my opinion, just a very distant relative of the _Fat Lady_.


 


GavinW said:


> Sorry, I'm a bit confused. There is no connection in meaning at all, as far as I can see, between the two sayings:
> Don't count your chickens...
> and:
> It's not over till the fat lady sings
> 
> It wasn't clear to me whether this is what TeeRex is saying or not.
> By the way, hi TeeRex! Love your posts, keep 'em coming! You're a serious boon to the IE forum!
> ;-)


 
Ok, I can see that both Teerex and Gawin may have a point here, in that both the "Fat Lady" and "vendere la pelle dell'orso" imply that a situation, a game, a fight, etc. are not closed until it's over but there is a difference: the "Fat Lady" is used in contexts (see the example on the Healt Bill posted by nsartor) where a supposedly negative situation can still be reversed (see here); in this case I would say it could be rendered by the Italian "non è finita finchè non è finita", though this isn't quite idiomatic.
The opposite is true for all other Italian idioms offered ("vendere la pelle dell'orso", "non dire quattro/gatto...", "non cantar vittoria...") which, to me, refer to situations that are meant to give a positive outcome but can still turn out badly even at the very last moment.


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## GavinW

> Ok, I can see that both Teerex and Gawin may have a point here, in that both the "Fat Lady" and "vendere la pelle dell'orso" imply that a situation, a game, a fight, etc. are not closed until it's over, but there is a difference...


 
Er, actually I think that's the very point we've both been making...
;-)


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## Blackman

_Non è finito finchè non cala il sipario_ rende meglio, ma non è un proverbio in senso stretto.


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## byrne

> the "Fat Lady" is used in contexts (see the example on the Healt Bill posted by nsartor) where a supposedly negative situation can still be reversed (see here); in this case I would say it could be rendered by the Italian "non è finita finchè non è finita", though this isn't quite idiomatic.


 
I agree and maybe I'm pushing it a bit, but to keep it idiomatic and to keep in the theatre/stadium theme, could you use the word sipario somehow? something like

_finchè non cala il sipario (finale)...?_


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## Arrius

*GavinW:* *Sorry, I'm a bit confused. There is no connection in meaning at all, as far as I can see, between the two sayings:*
*Don't count your chickens...*
*and:*
*It's not over till the fat lady sings*.
I, personally do see a similarity of meaning between the expression about the chickens, the Italian (and French) sayings about not selling the bear's skin before you've caught it, and the American one about the fat lady. In each case we are warned of the folly of assuming that one is going to succeed (or fail) before the final result is known. Lafontaine's poem about the foolish milkmaid with the big ideas has a similar message.


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## Teerex51

The EU Department of Political Correctness, having identified significant associations between the two above-referenced sayings has issued a directive which, with immediate effect, calls for rephrasing them as follows:


It's not over until the girth-challenged person sings

Don't sell the bear's eco-fur until Brussels says so


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## ernestina

Rientro nel thread che avevo aperto tempo fa (chiedendo il significato dell'espressione) per darvi la mia opinione rispetto a un'altra possibile versione italiana della stessa frase, molto comunememte usata nel linguaggio parlato, che secondo me può essere anche resa con "Finché c'è vita c'è speranza", Non so che cosa ne pensiate... forse fa riferimento a un altro contesto ma in italiano ci può stare...


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## Akire72

Forse: "è presto per cantar vittoria"?


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## -GS-

Teerex51 said:


> The EU Department of Political Correctness, having identified significant associations between the two above-referenced sayings has issued a directive which, with immediate effect, calls for rephrasing them as follows:
> 
> 
> It's not over until the girth-challenged person sings
> Don't sell the bear's eco-fur until Brussels says so



Is this real? I hope it's just a joke, because it would sound so absurd to me... it would be the demonstration (as if it was needed) that too often "Political Correctness" is like the sleep of reason: it generates monsters...

Tornando sul tema del felino: non ho mai (e ribadisco mai) letto/sentito "non dire QUATTRO se non l'hai nel sacco": sempre (e solo) "non dire GATTO se non l'hai nel sacco". Non credo che questo tale Trapattoni abbia nulla a che fare con l'eventuale storpiatura del detto in questione. Ora, se effettivamente il detto originale prevedeva proprio l'uso della parola quattro... ebbene, ho imparato una cosa nuova. Però rimango ugualmente perplesso.


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## Teerex51

> "Finché c'è vita c'è speranza"



A mio avviso si avvicina di più al significato della frase originaria di quanto facciano orsi, gatti ecc.

In inglese, tuttavia, ha già il suo bell'equivalente: "As long as there is life,there is hope."



-GS- said:


> Is this real? I hope it's just a joke



No panic. I made that one up.  (but give it time...)


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## nsartor

Gavin,

     I started by the poster wanting to know the meaning of the English phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings."  Then someone asked if there was an Italian equivalent and King Crimson suggested (and I just loved this one) 

"non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso"  

but then TeeRex thought that

non vendere la pelle dell'orso prima di averlo ucciso was more like "don't count your chickens until they're hatched" and we ended up with 

_"Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco_" from Trappatoni the Italian Yogi Berra.

I'd think we were at the end of this thread but. (ba dump dump)

It's not over till the fat lady sings!

Niccolò


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## ernestina

OT: it looks like we could go on forever with this... at least until the fat lady sings!!!!
Bye everyone and thanks again!


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## -GS-

"_Non dire gatto se non l'hai nel sacco_"

Scusate se torno sulla questione, ma - incuriosito dai precedenti post - ho svolto alcune ricerche, ed ho scoperto che, effettivamente, molte fonti riportano che il detto originale è "non dire QUATTRO se non l'hai nel sacco"! Al che il mio sbigottimento, perché io ho sempre sentito la versione col gatto! E poi, onestamente, diciamocelo: il felino è molto più efficace nel rendere l'idea! Che cosa sarebbe questo 'quattro'? Inoltre io sono assolutamente al di sopra di ogni sospetto perché, non seguendo minimamente (per non dire di peggio) lo sport del calcio, non ho mai avuto occasione di sentire la versione del signor Trapattoni, che nelle svariate pagine internet a lui dedicate viene dipinto come un dispensatore di perle di saggezza.

Comunque, "non dire quattro se non l'hai nel sacco"... peccato, quella del "gatto" mi sembrava un'immagine molto più vivida che non il "quattro".


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## Arrius

*Teerex51*: *As long as there is life there is hope* is always said in BE as *While there's life, there's hope* or as I said in post #4 2½ years ago, increasingly rarely, _Dum spiro, spero._
As for the ingenious PC euphemisms you invented, there are some similar genuine ones that are just as ridiculous, such as _vertically challenged_, which I once used jokingly to describe a very short person, though not within earshot of her of course, only to find later that it was a bona fide term! 

*nsartor*: *Don't count your chickens until they're hatched* I have only heard as *Don't count your chickens before they're hatched*.


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## nsartor

Arrius said:


> *Teerex51*: *As long as there is life there is hope* is always said in BE as *While there's life, there's hope* or as I said in post #4 2½ years ago, increasingly rarely, _Dum spiro, spero._
> As for the ingenious PC euphemisms you invented, there are some similar genuine ones that are just as ridiculous, such as _vertically challenged_, which I once used jokingly to describe a very short person, though not within earshot of her of course, only to find later that it was a bona fide term!
> 
> *nsartor*: *Don't count your chickens until they're hatched* I have only heard as *Don't count your chickens before they're hatched*.



Looks like your way is more common but I've definitely seen "until" as well.

http://www.goenglish.com/DontCountYourChickensUntilTheyreHatched.asp

But what is it with Italian and the quattro?  

Per esempio, sempre dice Geronimo Stilton  "quattro come un ratto"

Niccolò


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## King Crimson

nsartor said:


> Looks like your way is more common but I've definitely seen "until" as well.
> 
> http://www.goenglish.com/DontCountYourChickensUntilTheyreHatched.asp
> 
> But what is it with Italian and the quattro?
> 
> Per esempio, sempre dice Geronimo Stilton "quattro come un ratto"
> 
> Niccolò


 
I think in this case it should be "*quatto*"(crouching), which also rhyme with "ratto"...


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