# Swedish: who is my mother's father and father's mother, respectively?



## franknagy

marfar <---> farmar??


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## ger4

I think _morfar_ is your mother's father, _farmor_ is your father's mother (but perhaps native speakers can explain it in more detail)

Likewise:
_mormor_ - mother's mother 
_farfar_ - father's father


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## MattiasNYC

yep


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## DerFrosch

I can confirm everything Holger said.

In Swedish, there is no word equivalent to _grandmother_/_grandfather_. You *always *have to specify whether you're referring to a paternal or maternal grandparent. The same goes for _grandparent_; "my grandparents" would have to be rendered as "_mina mor- och farföräldrar_" (_morföräldrar_=maternal grandparents, _farföräldrar_=paternal grandparents).


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## franknagy

Aha, just like in Arabic does not exist a collective noun for camel. There exist separate words for male camel, female camel, castrated camel, young camel, old camel, ...


DerFrosch said:


> I can confirm everything Holger said.
> 
> In Swedish, there is no word equivalent to _grandmother_/_grandfather_. You *always *have to specify whether you're referring to a paternal or maternal grandparent. The same goes for _grandparent_; "my grandparents" would have to be rendered as "_mina mor- och farföräldrar_" (_morföräldrar_=maternal grandparents, _farföräldrar_=paternal grandparents).



And how do you say in Swedish great-grandparents and ancestors in generation minus -4 and -5?


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## MattiasNYC

Far
Farfar
Farfars far
Farfars farfar 
etc


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## AutumnOwl

Queen Victoria is the great-great-great-great-great-grandmother of prince George of Cambridge.

Drottning Victoria är prins Georges farfars morfars farfars mor.


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## DerFrosch

In addition to that, it's also possible to say _gammelfarfar_, _gammelmormor_, etc., more similarly to the English pattern. A _gammelfarfar _is equivalent to a paternal great-grandfather. These words are actually not quite as pedantically specific, as _gammelfarfar _may refer to either your father's or your mother's _farfar_.

We normally don't add additional _gammal _prefixes, though, _gammelgammelfarfar _is seldom heard.


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## MattiasNYC

I have to say that where I grew up I think I never heard "gammelfarfar" or something similar being used, though I know it is used by some. I wonder if it's regional or something.


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## DerFrosch

I would say "gammelfarfar" is somewhat informal, and has an affectionate ring to it. You're more likely to use it in reference to your own great-grandparents than to someone else's. "Farfarsfar", on the other hand, has a more solemn tone. 

"Gammelfarfar" is also a younger word. I did some quick research, and it's hard to find usage examples prior to 1950, 1960. I'm certainly quite familiar with the word, so possibly it's more common in Stockholm.


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> Aha, just like in Arabic does not exist a collective noun for camel. There exist separate words for male camel, female camel, castrated camel, young camel, old camel, ...
> 
> 
> 
> And how do you say in Swedish great-grandparents and ancestors in generation minus -4 and -5?





franknagy said:


> Aha, just like in Arabic does not exist a collective noun for camel. There exist separate words for male camel, female camel, castrated camel, young camel, old camel, ..
> 
> And how do you say in Swedish great-grandparents and ancestors in generation minus -4 and -5?


And I was told that in Hungarian there was no generic word for brother, only older brother and younger brother.


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## bicontinental

DerFrosch said:


> In Swedish, there is no word equivalent to _grandmother_/_grandfather_.



In Danish there's _bedstemor _and_ bedstefar_ ...in Norwegian it's _bestemor/bestefar_ if I'm not mistaken. But there are no equivalents in Swedish apparently? 
Bic.


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## DerFrosch

No, there really isn't. Not in the standard language, anyway. As I understand it, _bästefar_/_bästemor _has actually been used in the past, and might possibly still be in use today, in some dialects in western Sweden, mainly Bohuslän, presumably as a result of Norwegian influence.

I'm actually not aware of any other European language that doesn't have an equivalent word for grandmother/grandfather, it seems like Swedish is pretty unique in that respect.

And I must admit the Norwegian "solution" seems like the best one. They use _both "_bestefar" _and "_farfar"/"morfar". The best of two worlds!


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## Sepia

Now, this makes me really curious: How would you go about it when you'd translate a story from English to Swedish - Would you research if "Grandfather" would actually be "farfar" or "morfar", would you flip a coin, or would you use the less common, maybe obsolete, "bästefar"?


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## DerFrosch

This is indeed a classic translation problem...

Using "bästefar" is certainly not an option. In case I wasn't clear earlier: It's not just uncommon, it's nonexistent - save for (possibly) a few dialects in western Sweden. And I only learned this just now by doing some research.

So what you have to do as a translator is instead, as you suggest, research, look for any clues as to whether the grandfather's paternal or maternal. Maybe you don't know when you start translating, it's only revealed later on in the story, and then you have to be alert so you don't overlook any hints in the text. And if you just can't find out, well, then you simply have to resort to your second alternative: flip a coin.  Might seem drastic, but if it's that difficult to find out, it's usually not very important.


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## Göte

DerFrosch said:


> This is indeed a classic translation problem...
> 
> Using "bästefar" is certainly not an option. In case I wasn't clear earlier: It's not just uncommon, it's nonexistent - save for (possibly) a few dialects in western Sweden. And I only learned this just now by doing some research.



One option is to use the prefix "gammel"/"gammal"/"gamle" (all meaning old).

The words "gammelfar" is listed in SAOB (two variants are "gammalfar" and "gamlafar") and SAOL 13 (haven't checked SAOL 14), but the description is missing (at least online). "gammalmor" is described as:



> – (2) GAMMAL-MOR, äv. -MORA, förr ngn gg -MODER. ( gambla- 1681. gammal(l)- 1626 osv. gammel- 1846 osv.)
> [jfr d. _gammelmo(de)r_]
> (i vissa trakter, bygdemålsfärgat) om äldre husmoder (i ett hus där det finns husmoder av yngre generation); ofta liktydigt med: farmor l. mormor l. undantagsgumma; äv. allmännare, familjärt: ålderstigen gumma; jfr ÅLD-MOR. Finnilä (dvs. Finnilas) gammall moor på Kyrekiegatun. BtÅboH I. 1: 183 (1626). SCHULTZE Ordb. 3128 ( c. 1755: -moder). Någon gammelfar eller -mor stannade hemma och de minsta barnen. RÖNNBERG Bredbolstad 30 (1907). SLAGERLÖF i TurÅ 1914, s. 2.


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## bicontinental

DerFrosch said:


> I'm actually not aware of any other European language that doesn't have an equivalent word for grandmother/grandfather, it seems like Swedish is pretty unique in that respect.


 Yes, indeed .



DerFrosch said:


> And I must admit the Norwegian "solution" seems like the best one. They use _both "_bestefar" _and "_farfar"/"morfar". The best of two worlds!


 Just for the record...The Danes get to choose as well (among farmor/mormor/bedstemor etc.) 
Bic.


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## DerFrosch

Göte said:


> One option is to use the prefix "gammel"/"gammal"/"gamle" (all meaning old).
> 
> The words "gammelfar" is listed in SAOB (two variants are "gammalfar" and "gamlafar") and SAOL 13 (haven't checked SAOL 14), but the description is missing (at least online). "gammalmor" is described as:



Thank you, Göte, I just couldn't think of any word for grandfather even in older Swedish, but now that you mention it, I have heard _gammelfar _before.

That being said, it could only (possibly) be an option in a translation if it's an older book and, I'd say, if it's a rural setting (I can't imagine it's ever been used by the upper class). Also, it's somewhat ambiguous, as seen in the SAOB article. If the context isn't clear, I might understand _gammelmor _as "ålderstigen gumma", as they put it.

Oh, and it turns out that "_storfader_/_storfar_" has also been used for "grandfather" in the past:


> 2) (numera bl. i vissa trakter, bygdemålsfärgat) till I 2 a β: farfar l. morfar; förr äv. farfars far; förr äv.: överhuvud för familj (med flera levande släktled), anträffat bl. bildl., om påven. Sender jag till .. min broder .. och befaller honom, at han hvar fredag må läsa Letanias .. för sin moder och Stormoder och Storfader och Systrar som döda ära. 1LinkBiblH 1: 79 (1578). Såsom till menniskians födhelse är Fadhren then nästa Orsaken, så att man icke behöfuer gå längre ifrå till Farfadher, stoorfadher, storfadersfader, och så fram åth. FORSIUS Phys. 40 (1611). BJÖRNSTÅHL Resa 1: 381 (1772; bildl.). BESKOW (1839) i 3SAH XLVII. 2: 208





bicontinental said:


> Just for the record...The Danes get to choose as well (among farmor/mormor/bedstemor etc.)



Oh, my apologies! I didn't you did that too...


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## bicontinental

@DerFrosch : No apologies needed!


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## franknagy

Ben Jamin said:


> And I was told that in Hungarian there was no generic word for brother, only older brother and younger brother.


The same is true for sisters.
It causes a translation problem, again: How should I translate "brother"  and "sister" to Hungarian?
The generic words: "fiútestvér", "lánytestvér" are not used in everyday speech.


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## Sepia

Maybe by the same model as "female cousin"/"male cousin"? If it makes sense to go that far.


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> The same is true for sisters.
> It causes a translation problem, again: How should I translate "brother"  and "sister" to Hungarian?
> The generic words: "fiútestvér", "lánytestvér" are not used in everyday speech.


 Does "testvér" mean "sibling" (male sibling and female sibling)?


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## franknagy

Ben Jamin said:


> Does "testvér" mean "sibling" (male sibling and female sibling)?


Yes, Ben. "testvér" mean them.
The children say "tesó".
On the other hand, it is a compound word. "test"="body", "vér"="blood".


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