# Martyrologium Romanum - Romanum is dative or ablative?



## xpell

Hi! I was trying to decypher if the word "romanum" is in the dative or ablative masculine(?) case in book titles like the "Martyrologium Romanum" (or "Missale Romanum", for instance, too...) May you help me, please?


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## Flaminius

In both titles, romanum is neuter nominative singular.  Nominatives are identical with accusatives for neuter, but nominative is more becoming for  book titles.


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## xpell

Thank you very much, Flaminius.  Unfortunately, this leads me to another question: 

If "Romanum" is neuter nominative singular in these titles, what cases are _Hieronymianum_ in "Martyrologium Hieronymianum", or _Secundum Ioannem_ in "Evangelium Secundum Ioannem", for instance, please? I'm unable to find the "general rule" and it's driving me mad!


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## Flaminius

Don't be mad, ksuppelie.     Hispanohablantes such as yourself are better off than others understanding Latin.  

Let's build up from the basics.  Latin adjectives have to agree with the nouns they modify in terms of the gender, the number and the case.  If you want to modify, eg, martyrologium (a neuter noun in singular nominative), you need to cast your adjective into what?  -- nominative neuter singular!  Romanum is an adjective in nominative neuter singular (of, or pertaining to, the Romans).  Tuddaahn! If you look it up in the dictionary, the head word is romanus, or its masculine nominative singular form.

If you know that, you can do away with Hieronymianum too.  It's in, again, nominative neuter singular.  

Secundum Ioannem is a bit tricky but rest assured that secundum is in nom-neu-sg.  Because it is an adjective it agrees with the noun it modifies.  It means "according to" and it needs a noun to make a meaningful sentence.  I cannot think of a Spanish example but "jealous" is an English example of an adjective that takes a noun:
Iago was jealous of Othello.
Look how the adjective casts the complement noun into genitive.

Likewise the Latin secundus (> secundum in nom-neu-sg) casts its complement into accusative.  So, Ioannem is the accusative form of Ioannes.

The general rule here is very roughly;
the noun tells its modifier what shape to take and the adjective tells its complement what shape to take.


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## xpell

Thank you very much again, Flaminius.  I think my problem was that I didn't grasp that personal names had a neuter case too.  I thought they could only be masculine or feminine. My ignorance.


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## Flaminius

Wait, wait.  They are not proper nouns but proper adjectives. The noun from which Hieronymianus is derived is Hieronymus.  Nouns can modify another noun by assuming the genitive form but deriving a proper adjective is as common. The boundary of nouns and adjectives is often blurry but it's an important distinction when you are analyzing the grammar.


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## xpell

Thank you once more, Flaminius. I think I'm starting to grasp it. 

So, following my original example, if I wanted to say "the Martyrology of the Brotherhood" (meaning the brotherhood/sisterhood of believers), could I say "Martyrologium Germanitas"? (Both in nominative?)


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## Flaminius

Two points you have to find the answers for (sorry if it comes across high-handed)
1. Adjectives should assume the same gender, number, case with the noun it modifies, but if you want a noun to  modify another noun, the modifying noun should assume the XYZ case.
2. A brotherhood that consists of believers or peers for performing a specific ritual is called collegium in Latin.  Look it up in the dictionary and find its XYZ  case form (the one mentioned in Point 1).

If you look back at my previous posts you will see what the XYZ case....


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## CapnPrep

Flaminius said:


> Secundum Ioannem is a bit tricky but rest assured that secundum is in nom-neu-sg.  Because it is an adjective it agrees with the noun it modifies.  It means "according to" and it needs a noun to make a meaningful sentence.  I cannot think of a Spanish example but "jealous" is an English example of an adjective that takes a noun:
> Iago was jealous of Othello.
> Look how the adjective casts the complement noun into genitive.
> 
> Likewise the Latin secundus (> secundum in nom-neu-sg) casts its complement into accusative.  So, Ioannem is the accusative form of Ioannes.


Latin adjectives do not cast their complements into the accusative (or only in very rare cases). This _secundum_ is a preposition governing the accusative (> Spanish _según_). The form of the word is derived from the nom/acc neuter singular of the participle of _sequor_, but as a preposition, _secundum_ has no case, number, or gender, and it does not agree with the word it modifies. In this example, it is a coincidence that _evangelium_ happens to be a neuter singular noun. Compare _the_ _four gospels according to the apostles_, which would be _quattuor evangili*a* secund*um* apostol*os*_, with no agreement anywhere.


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## Flaminius

I stand corrected, Capt.!  While Latin adjectives govern the case of the complement nouns, it was uncalled for explaining "secundum Ioannem."


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## wtrmute

xpell said:


> So, following my original example, if I wanted to say "the Martyrology of the Brotherhood" (meaning the brotherhood/sisterhood of believers), could I say "Martyrologium Germanitas"? (Both in nominative?)



_Germanus_ as a word for "brother" is actually a Gothic loanword, and not standard Latin (you do see it in Iberian Neolatin, though).  Like Flaminius said, a brotherhood of believers can be called _collegium_, but in a Christian context it's usually _sodalitas_, I think.


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## Scholiast

salvete!



wtrmute said:


> _Germanus_ as a word for "brother" is actually a Gothic loanword, and not standard Latin (you do see it in Iberian Neolatin, though).  Like Flaminius said, a brotherhood of believers can be called _collegium_, but in a Christian context it's usually _sodalitas_, I think.



_Martyrologium *Fratrum*_, surely - where _Fratrum_ is gen. plur.?

Σ


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## wandle

Why not Martyrology of the Faithful (to include all believers)?

This would be*  Martyrologium Fidelium *


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## fdb

wtrmute said:


> _Germanus_ as a word for "brother" is actually a Gothic loanword, and not standard Latin (you do see it in Iberian Neolatin, though).



germanus ‘brother’ occurs in classical authors from Plautus onwards, long before the Romans had any contact with Goths or other Germans, and is certainly 'standard' Latin. It is related to germen ‘seed’, probably dissimilated from Indo-European *ǵen-men-, like Sanskrit janman-.


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## Scholiast

salvete sodales!

With all respect to wandle (#13), I think that if one googles "Martyrologium", or indeed any relevant site pertaining to Christian orders, it is only _fratres_ (gen. _fratrum_) that come up, never _fideles_ or _fidelium_. As of course with the "Arval Brethren".

Σ


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## wandle

With all respect to *Scholiast*, I do not see the problem. The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say:


> By martyrology is understood a catalogue of martyrs and saints arranged according to the order of their feasts, i.e., according to the calendar.


In other words, 'martyrology' is a general term for a list of martyrs and saints. One could imagine various such lists.

The _*Martyologium Romanum*_, on the other hand, says Wikipedia, is a specific one:


> The Roman Martyrology (Latin: Martyrologium Romanum) is the official martyrology of the Catholic Church. Its use is obligatory in matters regarding the Roman Rite liturgy, but dioceses, countries and religious institutes may add to it duly approved appendices.[1] It provides an extensive but not exhaustive list of the saints recognized by the Church.


Post 11 asked 


wtrmute said:


> if I wanted to say "the Martyrology of the Brotherhood" (meaning the brotherhood/sisterhood of believers), could I say "Martyrologium Germanitas"?


My post, aimed to accomodate both brothers and sisters, offers a valid possiblity in good Latin. The question in post 11 already contemplates some form of new expression.


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## Scholiast

salvete, sorores!

In #16 wandle, whose Latinity is impeccable, is striving for a "gender-neutral" (horrid political correctitude) alternative to the (apparently) exclusive "brotherhood". But L&S s.v. _frater_ have this:

*B.* Fratres for _brother and sister_ (as also the Gr. ἀδελφοί): “Lucius et Titia fratres emancipati a patre,”  _Dig. 10, 2, 38_: “tres fratres, Titius, Naevius et Seia,”  _ib. 2, 14, 35_: “fratrum incestus, amor,”  *Tac. A. 12, 4*: “INFANTIBVS HILARIONI ET REVOCATAE FRATRIBVS,”  _Inscr. Orell. 4583_.

Of course _fidelium _is also perfectly good Latin.

Σ


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## wtrmute

fdb said:


> germanus ‘brother’ occurs in classical authors from Plautus onwards, long before the Romans had any contact with Goths or other Germans, and is certainly 'standard' Latin. It is related to germen ‘seed’, probably dissimilated from Indo-European *ǵen-men-, like Sanskrit janman-.


I stand corrected.  Also, I make no pretense of being anything but a beginner Latinist, although I have never personally seen _germanus_ being used as a word for brother except in Visigothic and Mediaeval inscriptions.  It was obviously popular enough there to supplant _frater_ as a general word for "brother" and yield es.:_hermano_ and pt.:_irmão_, but it seems downright rare elsewhere. At any rate, my main point was that I would translate "Martyrology of the Brotherhood" as _Martyrolōgium Sodālitātis_, which is a more specific word for a Christian-style brotherhood of laypeople.


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