# changing from vous to tu



## nouvellerin

As a young foreigner in France, I often find myself having difficulties in French despite my ability to speak. It often has to do with my not knowing whether to address someone as tu or vous.

I worked at two secondary schools in Bordeaux (my contract just finished but I am still here), and I worked with many English professors who are French. We spoke in English at the school, so we used the neutral "you." It was rare that we switched to French, but when we did, they all called me "tu" and I was so uncomfortable saying "tu" back to them (10+ years my senior, professionally prestigious, etc) but I was equally uncomfortable saying "vous" back to them because it creates the feeling that they are superior to me. 

Do French people struggle with this in the workplace?

There are other situations, as well. I know the guidelines of tutoyer/vouvoyer, but they are hard to employ in real life situations. For example, there are the parents of my boyfriend, and other members of his family. Most of the adults started with "vous" and after a little while, switched to "tu" when talking to me. At family gatherings, I feel really uncomfortable because everyone is related, therefore they all say "tu" to eachother, and I'm the only one saying "vous" to the adults. I feel uncomfortable. How do you deal with this?

I have a rather close relationship with my boyfriend's parents, and I feel weird having very casual conversations and laughing about things with them, while saying "vous" to them. 

Does anybody have insight into these situations? Sometimes I think I am stressing/thinking too much, but at the same time I really do have a discomfort. I have lived my whole life with one word for "you" and now there is vous, tu, toi, te. Four words, and the "tu" and "vous" have important social meanings attached, so I really don't want to mess it up.

Responses in English or in French would be very helpful. Thanks in advance!


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## melu85

Dans certaine situation, c'est tout aussi compliqué pour les Français.
Je recommande de commencer avec le "vous". Normalement la personne à qui vous parlez, devrait vous dire "tu peux me tutoyer". Si cela n'arrive pas, alors continuez à utiliser le vous. 
Si vous vous sentez vraiment à l'aise avec quelqu'un, vous pouvez vous-même lui demander si cela ne le dérange pas que vous lui disiez "tu".


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## Hulalessar

You just have to know! It is a bit like knowing how deep to bow in Japan.

Whilst in English we do not have to decide between different forms of the word "you", it is still the case that certain ways of speaking are acceptable in some situations but not others. Even native English speakers can get it wrong if they are not used to moving outside their own social circle and some people never get it right.

Have you discussed it with your French friends? If you do, I bet you will get different opinions. I do not think you ought to worry about it. You will eventually catch on.


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## avok

And I am sure that it is not just French people who struggle with this t / v distinction. Even the "native" speakers of many other languages, such as Turkish, which have this t / v distinction have similar problems.

I have spoken to several French speakers and let me give you some tips out of my own experience/rules which may help you a bit.

Firstly, you say that your colleagues are 10+ years your senior and professionally prestigious. So, there should be no need to worry about creating the feeling that they are superior to you. Because they "are" in deed superior. If "they" want to be closer to you, they shall eventually have to warn you about the use of "vous". If you use "vous", the ball is in their gardens, you just dont have to worry. 

For other circumstances, if my peers switch to "tu", that means I am "tacitly" allowed to switch to "tu" as well. And also I never "tu" people who are cold, unfriendly, incommunicative etc.

If you "feel" that you 'd better "tu", you should not wait for any permission. If you are comfortable saying "tu", just say it and wait for the reaction. That shall also show them that you are self confident enough.


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## nouvellerin

Thank you for your responses. This is something that is not taught in French class! Well, in grammar exercises it always provides whether you should use "tu" or "vous," it never asks you to determine which form to use yourself, so that when you are in real situations you are not well prepared.

The general consesus seems to be that when you are speaking with someone who is either much older than you or more prestigious professionally (or hierarchically above you), it's safer to wait until they give you permission to change to "tu." 

I always think it's strange to have the different forms being thrown around, when I'm with my boyfriend's family and I'm saying "tu" to his brothers and "vous" to each of his parents, and they're all saying "tu." Sometimes I'm so distracted by this that I have a hard time discussing!


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## avok

But to say "vous" to the parents of your boyfriend should not distract you, because they are not your own parents and there seems to be nothing wrong to "vous" them. I always use "vous" (its Turkish equivalent ) when I talk to my friends parents' for instance.
I am not sure but I feel that, for some French people, "vous" is "semi-formal" rather than "formal." So you, probably, do not sound very formal when using "vous". (If that's what is bothering you)

Keep in mind that neither using "tu" shall automatically break the ice, nor using "vous" shall put you immediately in an inferior position. Human relations are more complicated than that.


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## Zsanna

I don't know how much it can help but maybe another approach could be to decide whether you'd call the person in front of you by his/her first name in an English context. (If you did, you could "tutoyer" the person in French.) 
It is far from being a foolproof rule but still, one more piece to the puzzle...

Bon courage!


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## Hulalessar

nouvellerin said:


> This is something that is not taught in French class!


 
A teacher of French can only give a rough guide.


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## federicoft

Don't know if this could be useful, but my country is culturally close to France and I usually meet with exactly the same difficulties in Italian (which is moreover my mother tongue!). I especially find awfully embarrassing addressing my girlfriend's parents, or some friends of my parents, using the formal pronoun when they all use the informal one talking to each other.

As a general trend I think being overformal is always better than the opposite though.


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## Nanon

The workplace is certainly one of the most difficult contexts for _vous / tu_ unless there is a very clear corporate culture. The company I work with is a perfect example of confusion! We use our first names but the use of _tu / vous_ is variable and does not entirely depend on hierarchy. When somebody says _tu _to me, I do the same. When somebody says _"On se dit tu ?"_, I agree. When the other person and I are obviously confused and burst out laughing , I also offer to say _tu_. 

I would advise to use _vous _at work (at least the first day and unless told otherwise) and to wait until the magic sentence _"On se dit tu ?" _is pronounced. Sometimes you don't have to wait, sometimes it can take ages before this happens.

Yet the _vous / tu_ switch is very difficult for me. As a child, I had to say _vous _to my grandparents (they were already an exception by that time) who said _tu _to me, and I used the normal, standard _tu _with my parents, uncles and aunts -- it certainly didn't help!


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## alex-38

quick one on the in laws thing, I always said "vous" to my in laws as a sign of respect even tough they said "tu" to me.
I think this is a rule...
But as you're a foreigner, you may make some mistakes... You'll be forbidden.
I got an English friends that says "tu" to everybody, with her slight English accent, everybody understands that she is English and nobody is shocked or anything...


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## goedel

Hopefully she'll be forgiven, rather than forbidden 

I agree, Italians too cut a big slack to foreigners for grammar, or those kind of rules, and their unwilling mistakes will often be considered "cute".

The workplace is the most difficult environment, but your difficulty probably comes from the lack of experience. 

At work, I always address my "superiors" with "lei" and this does not make conversation more awkward.
Even more, some of them have told me in the past to address them as "tu" (independently of their age, or role; probably it depends more on their personal attitude and on how often we interact), so it happens that I'm in the same conversation with many of them, and I constantly switch from "lei" to "tu", but it all comes natural (more or less...).
There's even one that addresses me as "lei", while all the others go with "tu", so we have all possible combinations (except me saying "tu" and somebody replying "lei", since, as we say in Italy, I'm the "last wheel of the carriage" )


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## mally pense

I think the same dilemma exists in English if you look at whether you call your girlfriend's mother by her first name ("Mary" say) or by her surname ("Mrs Smith" for example). Surely this is an analogy of the tu/vous problem? Do the same sort of decisions apply? I presume so. Is there any easy answer? I think not.

There are many similar situations such as this, for example whether a grown-up nephew still calls his uncle "Uncle Fred" or whatever, or moves on to just "Fred". Again, no easy answers for if and when this might happen, so perhaps there are no easy answers to the tu/vous problem in French. You can always profess linguistic or social ignorance and ask of course, and even in English this is perhaps what you would do: "Uncle Fred, do you mind if I just call you Fred now?" or he might himself say to you "Just call me Fred" without you even needing to ask. So look for the cues/clues or ask.. though I appreciate this latter is not always easy. (Neither is the former for that matter!).


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## susantash

Well, the same disinction exists in Spanish, but I can only speak of what people in my country and around my age tend to do. Generally we use "usted" (vous) with older people (I'd say at least 15 years older) we don't know, (strangers) or at least that we don't know well. I would certainly adress a stranger as "vos"(vos rioplatense)  or "tú", if he or she was around my age.
So, I guess the most important aspect we take into consideration when we use "tú" o "vos" is the degree of familiarity we have with the speaker, no matter his/her age, and even status; I would adress some of my teachers -some of them of the highest rank- at university as "vos", without thinking it twice.
As for when to leave the respect form and start using the one of familiarity, I'd say we do it when we feel we've started to know the person. We've probably had the chance to have a couple of lengthy conversations already.


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## nouvellerin

mally pense said:


> I think the same dilemma exists in English if you look at whether you call your girlfriend's mother by her first name ("Mary" say) or by her surname ("Mrs Smith" for example). Surely this is an analogy of the tu/vous problem? Do the same sort of decisions apply? I presume so. Is there any easy answer? I think not.
> 
> There are many similar situations such as this, for example whether a grown-up nephew still calls his uncle "Uncle Fred" or whatever, or moves on to just "Fred". Again, no easy answers for if and when this might happen, so perhaps there are no easy answers to the tu/vous problem in French. You can always profess linguistic or social ignorance and ask of course, and even in English this is perhaps what you would do: "Uncle Fred, do you mind if I just call you Fred now?" or he might himself say to you "Just call me Fred" without you even needing to ask. So look for the cues/clues or ask.. though I appreciate this latter is not always easy. (Neither is the former for that matter!).



I don't completely agree with this, but I think it may be a difference between UK and US culture.

I worked at a children's museum in the States, where company procedure was enforced and followed religiously. I mean in terms of hygiene, museum maintenance procedure, behavior with visiting children and adults. The management took this very seriously since the safety and well-being of children was at stake. In this way, the management team was very well-revered and respected, seeing as how they watched us (staff) like halks. 

However, I never referred to my boss or other managers as Ms. or Mrs. It was Kathy (the exhibits manager), Anna (the operations manager), Cindy (the business manager), and Patty (the executive director). 

I know that you didn't cite this in your examples, that was more about personal and familial relationships, but the "vous" question often comes up in work or professionally related situations. According to your theory, I should have been calling these women with the prefix Ms. or Mrs., but that wasn't the case in the whole museum. 

All you have to do is watch Jon Stewart interview Barack Obama and you'll see how much formality is downplayed or non-existent in American culture. 

As for the in-law question, for me personally, I am always introduced to the parents of friends and partners by their first name. Come to think of it, calling someone Ms. or Mr. Soandso has become quite dated, and the only instance I can think of it being used is in the classroom, i.e. student/professor. 

*shrug*


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## mally pense

I have no theory, and no opinion on whether you would refer to your managers as Mr or Mrs or by their first names, or whether there is any difference in our two cultures. My aim in giving these familial examples, dated or otherwise, was merely to illustrate that the tu/vous type of problem _does_ exist in English speaking cultures even if it is not always recognised as such. On that I think we perhaps do agree.


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## Hulalessar

Whether to use Mr/Mrs or first name at work has changed in England over the last 40 years. I can remember my surprise, in 1971, the first time I was called "Mr" by someone older than me. I never did feel quite comfortable calling anyone I worked with more than a few years older by their first name. Of course it got to the point where most people were younger than me...

I am sure the same has happened in France with the use of tu and vous.


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## SophiePaquin

If there is a non-symmetrical relationship (e.g. professor-student) and the two have been using symmetrical vous for some time, if the professor one day uses "tu" with the student without warning, does this imply that the student should use "tu" with the professor as well?


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## alex-38

It really depends, if there is really a good feeling, it might be ok. But I've always waited that others would step up and start the tutoiement (saying tu). Even tough we did that only the final year of college with 2-3 professors... But I think, the professor must be very closed. Otherwise, I would stay with the vouvoiement (saying vous) even tough it is non-symetrical, the vouvoiement is out of respect for the position, age...
My guess is that in English, when you say "sir" or "professor", it is the vouvoiement you're using., when you're calling somebody by his first name, you're using "tutoiement"...


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## alex-38

there are quite a few topics in French on the web by just googling "Tutoyer" or "Vouvoyer"... (which are really verbs...)
http://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-francais-2/exercice-francais-11009.php
extrait :"
*Il existe certains cas où une personne est autorisée à tutoyer, tandis que son interlocuteur emploie le vous : 
-un professeur parlant à un jeune élève, 
-un adulte à un jeune enfant, une personne âgée s'adressant à une personne beaucoup plus jeune. 
Ces situations n'autorisent pas la personne qui est tutoyée à tutoyer son interlocuteur à son tour, ce qui montre que le vouvoiement n'est pas seulement une marque de formalité, mais aussi un indicateur de hiérarchie sociale qui permet de montrer son respect."*


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## SophiePaquin

Oui, je comprends bien qu'il y a des situation dans lesquelles la personne qui a un statut plus haut peut tutoyer mais en reçevant le vous. Mais, ici, il s'agit de deux personnes qui se sont toujours vousvoyées et après quelques ans, un jour la personne en autorité commence a tutoyer l'autre. Normallement, est-ce que l'élève commencerait à tutoyer le prof aussi, ou faut-il attendre pour le prof de lui le dire?


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## Mate

*Moderator's note*: 

While I realize it is difficult with such a subject, please try to keep your contributions at least mainly cultural and not personal. 

Thank you!


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## Nanon

Un élève tutoyant un prof, c'est rarissime, à moins que le prof ne l'ait explicitement autorisé à le faire.
Reste à savoir si c'est un élève (plutôt un enfant) ou un étudiant (plutôt un adulte). 

Si un étudiant parvient à un degré de confiance et de collaboration avec son professeur tel que le tutoiement peut se mettre en place (par exemple certains étudiants avec leurs directeurs de recherche), pourquoi pas ?

Si un enfant, à l'école, dit _"Maîtresse, tu veux bien (...) ?"_ c'est qu'il n'a pas encore appris à maîtriser le vouvoiement qui est une des marques de la distinction entre la famille et le monde extérieur, quand on parle aux adultes.

Si la famille de cet enfant a une relation amicale avec celle du prof, où tous les gens se disent tu dans ce contexte, l'élève devra quand même dire vous à son prof dans le contexte scolaire afin de ne pas établir de différence avec les autres élèves... C'est là un contexte difficile à maîtriser pour les petites têtes !

Switching to English - sorry, Mateamargo but I need to bring this case here, because my own situation is an illustration of a sociocultural and generation fact, valid at least for France. I had this dissymetry in my own life whereas I had to say _vous_ to my grandmother who used _tu_ when talking to me. She sticked to bourgeois rules (copied from aristocracy) that were very conservative and somehow dated in the XX century. She thought that children using _tu_ with adults were direspectful and not properly educated. I was free to say _tu_ to any other person in my family except for my grandparents on my father's side, which was confusing. From that time I kept an inhibition about switching from _vous_ to _tu_ in French and I always wait from the initiative to come from the other person, in any context.
This use is seldom found: few French-speaking families keep the obligation for children to use _vous_ when talking to adult relatives, and these families are either upper class or conservative, or both.


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