# infinitive + бы



## Jervoltage

Hello,

I was wondering if you could help me understand these few lines from Олег Митяев's song, Мой Отец. I'm particularly struggling with the use of infinitives and the particle бы. I can tell what most words mean on their own, but I can't really put them together in a meaningful way not knowing the grammar behind this sort of construction. Any help is much appreciated.

Не сорваться бы, не закружиться
Да мозги бы свои не пропить,
Да молитвы читать научиться,
Чтоб отца и детей не забыть.
Full lyrics


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## Q-cumber

Hello Jervoltage,
We use this construction (не + infinitive + бы) in meaning 'I wish something (bad and quite possible) won't happen "

For example: "Пол очень скользкий, не упасть бы!"  The floor is very slippery , I hope not to fall...
"Уже 10 часов. Не опоздать бы!" It's 10 AM already. I hope I/we won't be late.
"Сорваться" in the given context means "to start booze drinking after avoiding alcohol for some period of time". This term is mostly applicable to an alcohol-dependent person.
"Да..."  means "and" here and not "yes".

So the author (or an imaginary person) wishes to avoid starting drinking (like his father), losing contact with reality, pickling his brain in alcohol ... and he'd like to learn how to pray ... in order not to forget his father and children


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## Maroseika

By the way, positive constructions of the same type is also widely used.
Infinitive + бы (and without pronoun) means "I wish something would happen":

Забыть бы поскорей о том страшном дне.
Поехать бы следующим летом в горы.
Эх, жениться бы на богатой!


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## Jervoltage

Thank you ever so much, Q-cumber and Maroseika for your exhaustive explanation! I had no idea this was such a common construction!


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## Jervoltage

Coming back to this point, I've realized that the placement of бы's doesn't look to follow a regular pattern. Is there a logic to how бы should be used in such constructions, please? Would this mean the same as the original?

Несорваться бы, не закружиться *бы*
Да мозги бы свои не пропить,
Да молитвы *бы *читать научиться,
Чтоб отца и детей не забыть.


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## Q-cumber

As you know, Russian word order is very flexible. In my opinion, the author placed "бы" after "молитвы" in order: a) to emphasise the word "молитвы", b) to preserve the integrity of the lyrics' structure (rhythm, rhymes, etc.), c) to avoid redundant repetition of the same pattern that would sound a bit boring.

Не опоздать бы на поезд!
На поезд бы не опоздать! "Поезд" (the train) is emphasised.
*Мне* бы на поезд не опоздать!

Please note, that "бы" is used as an intonation marker, so to speak. It signals the accentuated word in a sentence.

By the way, this construction is often used with a 'stressing' word "как" or "лишь".  "Бы" is always placed right after these words.
Лишь бы не упасть!
Лишь бы успеть на поезд!
Как бы не забыть купить молока!
Как бы не сорваться, лишь бы не закружиться, как бы молитву читать научиться!


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## Maroseika

Jervoltage said:


> Is there a logic to how бы should be used in such constructions, please? Would this mean the same as the original?
> 
> Не сорваться бы, не закружиться *бы*
> Да мозги бы свои не пропить,
> Да молитвы *бы *читать научиться,
> Чтоб отца и детей не забыть.


Without additional (elucidative) words the only place of бы is right after the infinitive (like inthefirst line).

If there are other words, connected with infinitive, бы can be placed more free, after almost any word (except syntactic words):
_Да мозги бы свои не пропить
Да мозги свои бы не пропить
Да мозги свои не пропить бы_
Usually бы follows the word on which semantical stress lays.

To emphasize the phrase in the colloquial speech, бы can be used even several times, i.e.redundantly:
_Да мозги бы свои не пропить бы_
However this usage is not standard.


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## Jervoltage

Thank you very much!

Just one more thing, does the infinitives закружиться and научиться here also carry that "I hope..." meaning even though they are not accompanied by separate бы's (unlike не сорваться and не пропить)?


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## Awwal12

Yes, they do.


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## Q-cumber

Jervoltage said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> Just one more thing, does the infinitives закружиться and научиться here also carry that "I hope..." meaning even though they are not accompanied by separate бы's (unlike не сорваться and не пропить)?


Yes, they do. The main meaning in not affected. This is just the matter of accents. Sometimes we use several "бы"s in such sentences, but we do this rather jokingly.

Как бы мне бы не опоздать бы!


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## Maroseika

Jervoltage said:


> does the infinitives закружиться and научиться here also carry that "I hope..." meaning even though they are not accompanied by separate бы's (unlike не сорваться and не пропить)?


As already explained - yes, they do, but with one important specification: it means the same as with бы only if бы has been already said. Otherwise it may mean something quite opposite:
Не сорваться бы мне - I don't want to break loose but I'm afraid I can do that
Не сорваться мне - I'll never break loose (although I wish to do that)


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## Jervoltage

Thank you very much. I appreciate it - I gather that even if we only kept a single particle бы here, these lines would still mean the same.

Несорваться *бы*, не закружиться
Да мозги свои не пропить,
Да молитвы читать научиться,
Чтоб отца и детей не забыть.



Maroseika said:


> As already explained - yes, they do, but with one important specification: it means the same as with бы only if бы has been already said. Otherwise it may mean something quite opposite:
> Не сорваться бы мне - I don't want to break loose but I'm afraid I can do that
> Не сорваться мне - I'll never break loose (although I wish to do that)



Wow, I had no idea infinitives could be put to so many different uses with such varying nuances. This is really complicated! :-D


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## alexzzzz

Jervoltage said:


> Несорваться *бы*, не закружиться
> Да мозги свои не пропить,
> Да молитвы читать научиться,
> Чтоб отца и детей не забыть.



Yes, with a single бы at the beginning the text sounds totally fine and means the same.


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## pimlicodude

I'm reading a PDF entitled "Dative-Infinitive БЫ  Constructions in Russian, Taxonomy and Semantics" by Alina Israeli. She states on p1:


> The need for a taxonomy in this area arises because in the literature we find .... c) misinterpretations: _Mne by izvinit'sja_, translated as 'perhaps I should apologize' instead of 'I should have apologized' (Timberlake 2004).


This is a more complex area of grammar than it looks.
Later on the same page:


> Consequently, one of the issues, which obviously arises, is: Are there any predictors as to whether or not the utterance refers to the past or to the future? Fortuin (2000:428) claims that the tense of "the differences between [future world and past world] interpretations is attributed by the context, the discourse in which the construction occurs and in the case of negative sentences, the aspect of the infinitive".


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## pimlicodude

She divides бы +inf into 15 different meanings (gasp!)

1a. ему бы петь и петь.
Expresses the impossibility of the verb. The verb has to be reduplicated. This sentence shows regret about some action that can no longer take place. мамa ведь была крависая. Жить бы ей да жить. She could have lived on and on.

2a. ему бы частушки петь, а не арии
An insult or put down, suggesting a better alternative. 

3a. ему бы петь при дворе падишаха
Wishful thinking, but not a real wish that can come true under any circumstances. 

4a-b. ему бы только петь/сломать
A disparaging statement that has только or лишь, implying the subject is only willing to perform one action. вам вы разрушать всё, а заново построить вы не можете! тебе лишь бы переезжать на новые квартирые, all you care about is moving to а new apartment (Israeli states the plural квартиры is disparaging in tone).

A slightly different form of this: мне лишь бы попасть в Москву, а там увидим. If only I could get to Moscow, then we'll see.

5b. провалиться бы тебе
A curse. This form was more common in the 19th century. Translated here as "may you fall through the earth!"

6a-c. тебе бы как петь, тебе бы еще спеть им частушки, тебе бы так не петь

These are confrontational suggestions, with strong emphasis on тебе. тебе бы там посидеть! - you should try spending time in jail (in response to someone else claiming jail time was easy). ему бы остаться одному - he should try living on his own, without parents, see how he likes that! In the negative: тебе бы так "не работать" один денек в неделю!

7b. мне бы попить?
A request, a way of not asking directly. мне бы покурить?

8a-c. мне бы петь, мне бы спеть, не петь бы мне.
These are wishes. мне бы скинуть годков двадцать - if only I could drop 20 years. жить бы нам всем на одной улице. (The dative subject can be dropped, especially if it is мне.)

In the negative:  и мне бы не воевать - I wish I did not go to war (I'm not sure about her translation here - I think she means "I wish I didn't have to go to war").

9a-c. тебе бы петь, тебе бы спеть, тебе бы не петь
These are suggestions, so they have to have a 2nd or 3rd psn dative.

10a-c. мне бы петь, а я ....,  мне бы спеть, а я..., мне бы не петь, а я....
Regret. Alina states that the intonation rises on the verb before the adversative clause. тебе бы извиниться, а ты взял и уехал. The adversative clause can be elided: тебе бы извиниться (with a strong rising pitch). мне бы заткнуться и уйти, а....
In the negative: ей бы не плакать, а рассказать мне всю правду.


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## pimlicodude

11a, c-d. ему бы просить милостыню, если бы не
есы бы не (с)петь, если бы (не)
Conditional. не оборонись я ножом, не жить бы мне - had I not defended myself with the knife, I would not be alive. одной бы возиться до ночи, alone by herself, she would have fussed around till nightfall.

12c-d. ему бы так не гулять, ему бы так не спеть
comparisons. Israeli states that the imperfective version is very rare, and only permissible with verbs that have no perfective counterpart. будь жива покойница Оленушка, и ей бы так не любить свою дочку, were the late Olena aline, she would have have loved her own daughter this much. мне бы так никогда не придумать, I would never have been able to invent like this.

13d. мне бы не проспать
apprehension and warning. мне бы не заснуть, I hope I don't fall asleep.

14e. не тебе бы петь
a mild reprimand. не мне бы говорить, не тебе бы слушать - I shouldn't be speaking, you shouldn't be listening. Although Israeli states this particular phrase doesn't seem to be in use anymore. не тебе судить without бы means "it's not for you to judge". The form with бы is a milder reprimand.

15f. не тебе бы спеть, а ему
Contrastive regret. She states this form is very rare due to the negative perfective which is rarely found.


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## nizzebro

The list is exhaustive, but the very classification to me is not well organized, as usual.
So, 7b is actually declarative - applying the question mark is an occasional thing that doesn't properly reflect the actual modality.
Same about 13d; and, these should be in the "a" group that implements the sense "for the subject, this action is necessary or suits fine" - as well those marked as "c". Nothing special in "me" - one can regret or be sarcastic both about someone else and oneself.
The cases that indeed deserve a separate group, are 4a-b (бы + только/лишь) and 11a, c-d (...бы, если) - the latter is a rare bookish one, though.
The rest are just products of added emphatic shift and negation.

Speaking of different moods and modalities, years passed since I first listened a tape record of "Wish you were here" by Pink Floyd a long time ago, and I still cannot translate this phrase adequately.


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## pimlicodude

nizzebro said:


> The list is exhaustive, but the very classification to me is not well organized, as usual.
> So, 7b is actually declarative - applying the question mark is an occasional thing that doesn't properly reflect the actual modality.
> Same about 13d; and, these should be in the "a" group that implements the sense "for the subject, this action is necessary or suits fine" - as well those marked as "c". Nothing special in "me" - one can regret or be sarcastic both about someone else and oneself.
> The cases that indeed deserve a separate group, are 4a-b (бы + только/лишь) and 11a, c-d (...бы, если) - the latter is a rare bookish one, though.
> The rest are just products of added emphatic shift and negation.


I actually don't know what the a, b,c, d mean there.


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## Rosett

pimlicodude said:


> I actually don't know what the a, b,c, d mean there.


It’s similar to (or based on the idea of) Zalyznyak’s system of classification in grammar.


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