# Open & closed compound names (e.g. Carlo Magno & Carlomagno)



## Catagrapha

What are the factors for some open compound names to become closed and some to remain open? For instance, some become closed in certain languages and remain open in others, e.g., Bellavista & Bella Vista, Michelangelo & Miguel Ángel, Montecarlo & Monte Carlo, Veracruz & Vera Cruz; some remain open as variants of the closed in the same language, e. g., Marco Antonio & Marcantonio, Gian Paolo & Giampaolo.


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## berndf

In what language(s)?


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## pollohispanizado

At least in Italian, it's a fairly common typographical feature that they like to write words together with no space in compound situations, like numerals (eg. Milleduecentoquarantadue = 1242). _Miguelangelo_ is Italian while _Miguel Ángel_ is Spanish; the two languages have different typographical traditions (in French, it's _Michel-Ange, _with a _trait-d'union_).


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## symposium

Well, as far as Italian is concerned, it's just a matter of personal preference. Please note that not all your examples are comparable: "Michelangelo" is just one compound name, if you wanted to split it you should write it as "Michele Angelo", a different name altogether; the same is true for "Marcantonio/Marco Antonio" and "Giovanni Paolo/Giampaolo". There's no difference in pronunciation between "Montecarlo/Monte Carlo" or "Bellavista/Bella Vista", but as Pollo pointed out, it is generally preferred to write compound names as single words. "Magno" (the Great) is not understood as part of the name but as an attribute, so it's written separately. So it all basically boils down to preference and convention.


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## Dymn

I think in Spanish you usually have personal names written separately (I can't think of any exception right now) but placenames are usually written in one word: c.f. _Villanueva, Villafranca, Villarreal _(Spanish)_, Vila Nova, Vila Franca, Vila Real_ (Portuguese).

I guess it's just a matter of different conventions, I can't think of any compelling reason why it couldn't be the other way round.


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## pollohispanizado

Dymn said:


> I think in Spanish you usually have personal names written separately (I can't think of any exception right now) but placenames are usually written in one word: c.f. _Villanueva, Villafranca, Villarreal _(Spanish)_, Vila Nova, Vila Franca, Vila Real_ (Portuguese).
> 
> I guess it's just a matter of different conventions, I can't think of any compelling reason why it couldn't be the other way round.


In Spanish, compound nouns are always written as one word, so it may stem from or be influenced by that. I also could see it having to do with toponyms being more or less a physical description of a place, so writing the components together could disambiguate (Vamos a Torralba vs. Vamos a [la] torre alba). Just a guess...


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> I think in Spanish you usually have personal names written separately (I can't think of any exception right now)


Mariana.


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## symposium

"Mariana" quiere decir "de Marìa/ dedicado a Marìa", por eso tambièn hay la versiòn masculina "Mariano".


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## pollohispanizado

En cuanto a nombres propios en español, no se me ocurre ninguno allende las versiones truncas de algunos, tipo Juanca (Juan Carlos), pero en realidad no tiene mucho que ver.


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## Dymn

_Santiago (Sant'Iago)_ sería uno pero nadie se lo imagina como nombre compuesto de nada.


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## Circunflejo

symposium said:


> "Mariana" quiere decir "de Marìa/ dedicado a Marìa"


Sí, esa es la interpretación más usual. Sin embargo, hay quien lo ve como la unión de Maria Ana y, evidentemente, es imposible determinar cuál de las dos interpretaciones fue la que hizo cada uno de los padres que pusieron ese nombre a una hija suya.


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## bearded

pollohispanizado said:


> _Miguelangelo_ is Italian


Michelangelo.


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## pollohispanizado

bearded said:


> Michelangelo.


Grazie per la correzione. Non mi pareva bene ma non sapevo perché.


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## bearded




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## Catagrapha

In Spanish, is being open indicative of not being old enough to become closed?
e.g. Buenos Aires, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico


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## Circunflejo

Catagrapha said:


> is being open indicative of not being old enough to become closed?
> e.g. Buenos Aires, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico


Not necessarily. There's, for example, Ciudad Rodrigo in Spain.


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## pollohispanizado

Catagrapha said:


> In Spanish, is being open indicative of not being old enough to become closed?


Good question. I don't think there's any rule, really. It's just about conventions. Country names seem to _tend_ to stay separate and towns, together.


Catagrapha said:


> e.g. Buenos Aires, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico


Aside from Buenos Aires, there are many more examples of compounds for towns, all around the Hispanic world: Monterrey (Mex.), Monterrico (Guat.), Barrancabermeja (Col.), Valledupar (Col.), Villavicencio (Col.), Torralba (Esp.); _but_ Ciudad Vieja (Guat.) (and any other place with Ciudad... in the name).


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## Catagrapha

Can the type of preposition+article+noun/article+noun/preposition+noun be considered compound name or pseudo-compound name? e.g., Delaware, Dubois / Du Bois, El Dorado / Eldorado, Lacoste,  Da Silva


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## pollohispanizado

A compound noun is just two or more words put together, regardless of the spacing conventions (as discussed above, all languages have their own). Within a single language, there can be multiple ways of doing it: English compound nouns, for example, are formed with a space (dog house), with a hyphen (six-pack) and with no space (seafood).

The proper names you mention above are all from different languages, spelled by different people at different times. I couldn't comment specifically on them, but it wouldn't surprise me if that in France it's Du Bois while in North America it's Dubois, due to the name losing its lexical value. Eldorado is 100% the North American spelling (once again, because as a name it means more than its components); in Spanish it's  always with a space: El Dorado.


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