# emmerder jusqu'au bout



## broglet

Macron a dit  qu'il a très envie d'emmerder les non-vaccinés jusqu'au bout.  This has been reported by the BBC as him wanting to "piss off" the unvaccinated, which seems completely wrong to me since it would just mean he wanted to make them angry. Surely what he really meant was he wanted to fuck up their lives, or at least irritate them.  What do other WRers think?


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## rrose17

I think you answered your own question. By that I mean 


broglet said:


> at least irritate them


which to me is the same as pissing them off, no? A little more vulgar could have been "I really want to be a pain in the ass for the unvaccinated." Maybe "Screw them over"? but that sounds really strong for Macron I think.


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## OLN

Emmerder les gens est la version vulgaire d'enquiquiner les gens, leur casser les pieds, les embêter, ne pas leur ficher la paix, ne pas les laisser tranquille (_bug, annoy, not lay off_)
C'est sur la durée, à priori sans relâche jusqu'à ce qu'il obtienne que tout les réfractaires non vaccinés soient vaccinés. Il les emmerde déjà/les fait déjà chier, alors il compte le faire jusqu'au bout de son mandat. Le but n'est pas d'enrager encore plus les non vaccinés, qui serait contre-productif — ou alors je n'ai rien compris !


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## rrose17

Another could be “Let’s stick it to the unvaccinated!” Which is pretty harsh coming from the president.


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## broglet

Hi rrose17 - No! To irritate somebody is not the same thing in BE as to piss someone off. In BE to piss someone off usually means to make them angry with you. I suspect that's the last thing Macron wants as he approaches the election.


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## antoine boileau

I fear that swear-words are notoriously difficult to translate, as so much of their meaning relies on the emotional impact , and that depends on a whole host of factors : the situation (family / work / football terrace...), social class, age ...  .
I was however surprised by the BBC's (and the Guardian's) translation into "piss off". First, the meaning is, for me, much closer to what OLN has written (N° 26), and second, I think generally that the emotional impact of "piss off" is stronger, and its social acceptability weaker, in Britain than that of "emmerder" in France. (I know that I would use the latter much more often, and in wider social situations than I would use "piss off" in the UK.
However, I must admit that I can't at the moment find a better English version ! "Fuck up" would be closer in meaning, but way too strong in the emotion / acceptability continuum, IMHO.


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## Kelly B

Yes; on the other hand, something like keep up the pressure, stay on them is too soft.
Edit: keep riding their asses is maybe roughly right, but clunky. And I really can't imagine a president saying it...


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## broglet

Kelly B said:


> I really can't imagine a president saying it...


Indeed Kelly, but many of the complainers have been saying it _was _unpresidential ... perhaps the best English translation would be:

I'll pester them in their homes, I'll pester them at work, I'll pester them in the streets and even if this pandemic lasts a thousand years I'll never surrender ...

sorry


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## Nanon

In another article published later in the day, the Guardian opted for a more literal translation:


> (Macron) ... said the 5 million people who had not had vaccines against the coronavirus were “irresponsible” and that he really wanted to “put them in the shit” by making their daily lives as complicated as possible.
> Macron rebuke to unvaccinated citizens incurs anger in parliament


Ils ont l'air bien emmerdés pour traduire . Comme je les comprends...


Kelly B said:


> And I really can't imagine a president saying it...


Unfortunately, we can imagine presidents using that language, because there are precedents. See Casse-toi alors pauvre con!


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## antoine boileau

Or De Gaulle in '68 with his "chienlit"


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## catheng06

OLN said:


> Emmerder les gens est la version vulgaire d'enquiquiner les gens, leur casser les pieds, les embêter, ne pas leur ficher la paix, ne pas les laisser tranquille (_bug, annoy, not lay off_)
> C'est sur la durée, à priori sans relâche jusqu'à ce qu'il obtienne que tout les réfractaires non vaccinés soient vaccinés. Il les emmerde déjà/les fait déjà chier, alors il compte le faire jusqu'au bout de son mandat. Le but n'est pas d'enrager encore plus les non vaccinés, qui serait contre-productif — ou alors je n'ai rien compris !


From what I understand it means something like "make their -everyday- life difficult/complicated" (the aim being to get them to be vaccinated)

Maybe I'm wrong.....

Cependant, le choix du mot en français est discutable.......


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## swift

Certains médias ont choisi « to make someone miserable ».


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## LART01

catheng06 said:


> From what I understand it means something like "make their -everyday- life difficult/complicated" (the aim being to get them to be vaccinated)
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.....
> 
> Cependant, le choix du mot en français est discutable.......


Oui, je suis d'accord
Make their life miserable/a living hell

le choix du verbe _emmerder_ est totalement assumé politiquement. l'article du Parisien a été relu par les services de l’Élysée avant publication


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## joelooc

to bug them tirelessly   ?
'Asticoter' would have been more elegant but more death-related   (a president cannot afford that in his double bind paranoid context)


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## hiplm

I agree the Guardian's translation is way off base. I would have gone for "to make life difficult for", or "to make life f***king difficult for" perhaps to convey the style of language used.


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## neronimo

In keeping with the (intentional) vulgarity of the original sentence, I think "to break their balls" would work well.


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## Laurent2018

Perhaps "bugging them".
There's a minute hope that the anti-vax start thinking: the solidarity is trodden when they refuse the vaccine, but not when they ask that same solidarity to cover their medical costs...


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## wildan1

neronimo said:


> I think "to break their balls" would work well.


That really only works for half the population; it also has two meanings (the second one is to kid someone in a playful way).

As LART01 suggested, _I'm going to make their lives a living hell _is also what I would say in this kind of context. 

It may not be quite as vulgar as the French version, but it does clearly render what Macron's intentions are.


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## moustic

No, not "piss off", perhaps: _I'll harass them to the bitter end. (... give them a hard time...)_

Pompidou is also quoted as having used "emmerder" but not in a public setting:


> Un soir dans son bureau à Matignon, Georges Pompidou reçoit un jeune collaborateur qui arrive avec un parapheur plein, et comme tous les soirs, ce sont des décrets. Pompidou a alors explosé : "Arrêtez *d'emmerder* les Français ! Il y a trop de lois dans ce pays, on en crève, laissez-les vivre, et vous verrez ça ira beaucoup mieux." »


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## Locape

wildan1 said:


> As LART01 suggested, _I'm going to make their lives a living hell _is also what I would say in this kind of context.
> It may not be quite as vulgar as the French version, but it does clearly render what Macron's intentions are.


I was going to suggest _a living hell _too, but on second thoughts I think it would be the exact translation of 'Je vais faire de leur vie un véritable enfer'. And that's stronger than 'emmerder qqn jusqu'au bout' IMO, it sounds like they will have constant harassment, from the police, the IRS and so on!  
As @antoine boileau has pointed out, _emmerder _is more colloquial than slang and very much used, _faire chier _would be real slang.

Could @Laurent2018's suggestion work (bugging them), something like 'I'll keep bugging them to/until the bitter end'? Or 'annoy the hell out of them' (??)


neronimo said:


> In keeping with the (intentional) vulgarity of the original sentence, I think "to break their balls" would work well.


It's true I already heard some women say that, but I find 'casser les couilles' slangier.


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## joelooc

En général on accuse quelqu'un de vous casser les couilles (au sens inclusif  ) mais je n'ai jamais entendu personne menacer quelqu'un de lui casser les couilles, apparemment "it's a one way street".


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## Locape

C'est vrai, je n'avais pas réfléchi à ça, on dira en effet 'ils me cassent les couilles', mais pas 'je vais leur casser les couilles'. Mais ça n'est peut-être pas la même chose en anglais ?


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## joelooc

À Kiki Dee qui lui demande de ne pas lui briser le cœur Elton John réplique qu'il ne va pas lui briser le cœur; c'est plus élégant mais '_en même temps_' Reginald n'est peut-être pas une référence.


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## guillaumep

broglet said:


> Macron a dit  qu'il a très envie d'emmerder les non-vaccinés jusqu'au bout.  This has been reported by the BBC as him wanting to "piss off" the unvaccinated, which seems completely wrong to me since it would just mean he wanted to make them angry. Surely what he really meant was he wanted to fuck up their lives, or at least irritate them.  What do other WRers think?



"Emmerder" is a straightforward verb. Very simple, it means make someone's life difficult, impede, bother someone rudely.


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## Chimel

I agree with Locape (among others) that _emmerder_ is not really slang or vulgar (any longer), but still there was a general reaction in the media that "a President shouldn't use this kind of language". It's a word everyone daily uses without feeling particularly vulgar, but hearing it in the mouth of an senior official like the French president is still something of a shock (at least for some people).

So a good translation should reflect the meaning (making someone's life difficult) _and _this subtle language connotation. Not easy!

From what I have been reading so far here, I would go for


hiplm said:


> "to make life f***king difficult for" perhaps to convey the style of language used.


as it seems to me that "f***ing" has also become just slightly vulgar and nearly daily colloquial language, but still would be a transgression if used by the Prime Minister (or the Queen?  ).


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## antoine boileau

Chimel said:


> I agree with Locape (among others) that _emmerder_ is not really slang or vulgar (any longer), but still there was a general reaction in the media that "a President shouldn't use this kind of language". It's a word everyone daily uses without feeling particularly vulgar, but hearing it in the mouth of an senior official like the French president is still something of a shock (at least for some people).
> 
> So a good translation should reflect the meaning (making someone's life difficult) _and _this subtle language connotation. Not easy!
> 
> From what I have been reading so far here, I would go for
> 
> as it seems to me that "f***ing" has also become just slightly vulgar and nearly daily colloquial language, but still would be a transgression if used by the Prime Minister (or the Queen?  ).


I agree with all that you write, except that in Britain at least, the equivalent in force would be "to make life bloody difficult" and not "fucking". Yes, you hear "fucking" a lot in movies, and occasionally read it in the press, but hiplm's suggestion remains a lot stronger than "emmerder" in my view. (As evidence, I would cite the fact that he and you both use asterisks - no-one would write "em*****der" !)


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## Chimel

OK, I see your point. But isn't "making their life bloody difficult" a little bit _too _weak, then?


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## antoine boileau

Chimel said:


> OK, I see your point. But isn't "making their life bloody difficult" a little bit _too _weak, then?


I try to imagine a situation where Boris Johnson said the same sort of thing in the UK, what the press would write, and how opposition politicians would react. I think if he said "I want to make their lives bloody difficult" it would be pretty much equivalent : the BBC and the press would quote it in full on the 6 o'clock news and thier front pages, and his opponents would announce their indignation, just as in France. 
Possibly the same effect would be had if he said "I want to screw their lives up", but I think that this is a little bit stronger. However, I think that there is no way that the BBC would open the news bulletin with " The Prime Minister announced that he wanted to make life fucking difficult ..." !


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## sound shift

He's going to "stay on their backs"?


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## wildan1

> This has been reported by the BBC as him wanting to "piss off" the unvaccinated, which seems completely wrong to me since it would just mean he wanted to make them angry


The North American English-language press at large is using _piss off the unvaccinated _as a translation of this:

France’s Macron stands by comments that he wants to ‘piss off’ people not vaccinated against COVID


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## Kelly B

Broglet mentioned the "piss off" translation in post 1, and I have seen it since then, too, but I agree with Broglet that whoever got that one started was wrong, and I find it unfortunate that it has spread so widely.

It sounds purely vindictive when put that way, when in fact it is in fact motivated by public health.
(whether or not one believes he's going about it the right way)


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## Aristide

Chimel said:


> I agree with Locape (among others) that _emmerder_ is not really slang or vulgar (any longer), but still there was a general reaction in the media that "a President shouldn't use this kind of language". It's a word everyone daily uses without feeling particularly vulgar


Ça dépend comment c'est utilisé.
Il n'y a rien de très vulgaire à dire :
Ne t'emmerde pas à réparer ça, achète plutôt une nouvelle machine.

Par contre, quand on entend dans une conversation : Mais je l'emmerde, celui-là !
ou encore pire : Mais je vous emmerde !
Là, c'est extrêmement vulgaire.
Et Macron était plus près de cet exemple-là que de la machine tombée en panne.
Et il a aggravé son cas en insistant sur son message et en répétant le mot plusieurs fois.
Mon verdict : Super vulgaire et agressif !



Kelly B said:


> It sounds purely vindictive when put that way, when in fact it is in fact motivated by public health.
> (whether or not one believes he's going about it the right way)


En s'exprimant comme ça, il donne justement l'impression d'avoir des motivations malveillantes et de se moquer complètement de la santé publique.


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## Chimel

Aristide said:


> Ça dépend comment c'est utilisé.
> Il n'y a rien de très vulgaire à dire :
> Ne t'emmerde pas à réparer ça, achète plutôt une nouvelle machine.
> 
> Par contre, quand on entend dans une conversation : Mais je l'emmerde, celui-là !
> ou encore pire : Mais je vous emmerde !


OK, mais entre ces deux usages ("ne pas s'emmerder à" et "je vous emmerde"), il y a des cas comme "Ne m'emmerde pas avec ça, je n'ai pas le temps" que je ne qualifierais pas de vulgaire.


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## JClaudeK

Nanon said:


> a more literal translation


Peut-être aussi 
Ici "emmerder qn. =  foutre qn. dans la merde"



*foutre dans la merde* _loc v_ _vulgaire_ (embarrasser) (_figurative, vulgar, offensive_) get [sb] into deep shit, land [sb] in deep shit, land [sb] in the shit _v expr_   get [sb] into trouble, get [sb] in trouble _v expr_




Aristide said:


> Et il a aggravé son cas en insistant sur son message et en répétant le mot plusieurs fois.
> Mon verdict : Super vulgaire et agressif !


Vue dans le contexte, la répétition se justifie ...  !


> _Le chef de l'Etat répondait à une question d'une lectrice du Parisien soulignant que les non-vaccinés "occupent à 85% les réanimations", ce qui entraîne un report des opérations._
> [....]
> _"La quasi-totalité des gens, plus de 90%, ont adhéré"_ à la vaccination et _"c'est une toute petite minorité qui est réfractaire"_, ajoute-t-il. _"Celle-là, comment on la réduit ? On la réduit, pardon de le dire, comme ça, en l'emmerdant encore davantage. Moi, je ne suis pas pour emmerder les Français"_, ajoute-t-il, paraphrasant la célèbre phrase de son prédécesseur Georges Pompidou –_ "Arrêtez donc d'emmerder les Français"_._ "Je peste toute la journée contre l'administration quand elle les bloque, _souligne Emmanuel Macron._ Eh bien là, les non-vaccinés, j'ai très envie de les emmerder."_
> Source


Pas si choquant que ça, je trouve.


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## Locape

En effet, en remettant cette phrase dans son contexte, avec en plus 'pardon de le dire' et la référence à celle de Pompidou, on n'a pas une manière de parler "super vulgaire et agressive". Je ne suis donc pas d'accord avec @Aristide, cela aurait été le cas si Macron avait dit, de but en blanc, 'Je vais les faire chier' sans s'excuser avant. Ou s'il avait invectivé les non-vaccinés avec un 'Je vous emmerde !', le ton et la formulation sont très différentes, comme l'a fait remarquer @Chimel.
D'ailleurs, le WRD traduit_ faire chier_ également par _piss off_ :


> *faire chier [qqn]* _loc v pron__vulgaire_ (ennuyer [qqn]) (_vulgar, slang_)piss [sb] off _vtr phrasal sep_Cet exercice me fait chier.This exercise is pissing me off.


Mais je trouve, @JClaudeK, que justement 'les foutre dans la merde' serait vulgaire, à cause de l'addition de _foutre_ et _merde_, et c'est plus vindicatif que de les emmerder jusqu'au bout, à mon avis. Comme si, en plus de les obliger à se faire dépister systématiquement, il allait réduire la possibilité de le faire de manière drastique. Ce n'est pas le cas ici.

Pour moi, c'est une manière assez malpolie et un peu triviale de parler pour un chef d'état, mais ça n'est pas une insulte (comme le 'pauvre con' de Sarkozy). Certains trouvent cela inconvenant et grossier, d'autres une façon plutôt brute et insolente de s'exprimer. De toute façon, il est toujours important de remettre une phrase dans son contexte, quoi qu'on pense du président.


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## JClaudeK

Locape said:


> Mais je trouve, @JClaudeK, que justement 'les foutre dans la merde' serait vulgaire, à cause de l'addition de _foutre_ et _merde_, et c'est plus vindicatif que de les emmerder jusqu'au bout, à mon avis. Comme si, en plus de les obliger à se faire dépister systématiquement, il allait réduire la possibilité de le faire de manière drastique. Ce n'est pas le cas ici.


Entièrement d'accord avec toi.

La "proposition" "foutre dans la merde" n'en était pas une, je l'ai juste mentionnée par rapport à la traduction du Guardian à laquelle Nanon a fait référence dans le #9.
Après tout, nous cherchons un bon équivalent en anglais, pas une alternative en français.


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## joelooc

"Laxative measures shall be taken to the utmost" dit par Sir Alec Guinness, ça passerait très bien. eek:,c'est dimanche)


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## trans-latour

L’analyse d’une phrase comportant des grossièretés est sans doute, dans le domaine de la transmission du sens d’une langue à l’autre, la chose la plus difficile.
En fait, là comme ailleurs, tout dépend du contexte. Encore faut-il analyser correctement ce contexte, en se basant essentiellement sur le locuteur et sur les circonstances (je tiens à préciser que j’essaye d’être le plus objectif possible et, en aucun cas, de faire transparaître une quelconque préférence ou défiance sur le plan politique).

*1) Le Locuteur : Emmanuel Macron*, Sciences Politiques, l’ENA, Ancien banquier à la Banque Rothschild.
Il appartient à une certaine élite parisienne BCBG (Bon chic, Bon genre) connaissant les bonnes manières et les mettant en application. Certains hommes appartenant à cette élite, adoptent, très ponctuellement, le langage ordurier «des gens simples et vulgaires de la rue» avec une connotation de dérision et d’amusement qui, en principe, les fait rester « classe » et ne les fait pas, selon eux, tomber dans la vulgarité. Ils pensent, en effet, que lorsque ce sont eux qui les prononcent, ces mots perdent de leur virulence et leur grossièreté, tout en gardant intact leur message.
Il ne faudrait pas juger ces propos comme si ils avaient été prononcés par un citoyen quelconque, qu'ils auraient immédiatement « déclassé». C’est pourquoi, je déconseille toujours à des personnes étrangères d’utiliser, lorsqu'elles parlent français, des mots grossiers ou même familiers en pensant qu’ainsi ils vont ainsi parler comme de « vrais Français ». Il n’y a rien de plus faux, à mon avis. L’effet sur leur interlocuteur est presque toujours désastreux, même si ce dernier n’en laisse, en principe, rien paraître. Je fréquente, du fait de mes contacts, des Français de toutes conditions sociales, et je peux vous assurer que toutes les personnes que je vois parlent, avec moi, mais également entre elles, un français parfait, sans aucun mot familier, et encore moins ordurier, de peur d’être classées comme « mal élevées » ou « grossières » et donc dignes de peu d’intérêt.

*2) Les circonstances : il s’agit d’une entrevue donnée à un journal.*
Il ne s’agit pas d’une réaction épidermique lors d’un moment d’exaspération, comme le tristement célèbre « casse-toi pauv’con». Ici, les propos ont été nécessairement et soigneusement pesés par le service de communication du Président. Leur portée politique a certainement été analysée par des politologues, des psychologues, et des experts en campagne électorale. Car, en campagne électorale, tout le monde le sait, chaque mot est important. Tous les candidats procèdent de la même façon.
Quel est l’effet recherché ? Il y a plusieurs hypothèses que je ne développerais pas, car ce n’est pas le lieu. Ce que je veux dire c’est qu’il ne s’agit pas de paroles spontanées. Leur seul but est d’agir sur l’électorat. Il peut, par exemple, s’agir d’essayer de faire redescendre certaines personnes dans la rue, et de polariser la société en espérant que celà profitera au candidat sortant.

Tout cela pour dire qu’il ne faut pas interpréter ces propos au premier degré, et que la traduction édulcorée des journaux anglais n’est, peut-être pas si mauvaise.


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## Locape

Mais justement, les journaux anglais et américains ne traduisent pas cette expression de manière édulcorée, puisque _piss off_ est plus fort et vulgaire que l'original.
Je continue de croire que _to bug _serait plus approprié, mais je ne suis pas une native.


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## Laurent2018

Pour rejoindre Trans-latour, l'expression de Macron n'est pas politiquement correcte, mais bien politiquement appropriée.


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## JClaudeK

trans-latour said:


> Ici, les propos ont été nécessairement et soigneusement pesés par le service de communication du Président. Leur portée politique a certainement été analysée par des politologues, des psychologues, et des experts en campagne électorale.


Prétendre cela revient à dire que l’interview donnée au _Parisien_ (journal plutôt populaire voire classé _tabloïd_) aurait été préparée dans ses moindres détails et que Macron aurait été 'envoyé par ses conseillers' avec la consigne de placer ce mot 'grossier' dans l'interview, 'coûte que coûte'.
Ça, je n'y crois pas du tout !
Que Macron lui-même l'ait préparé / gardé en réserve en son for intérieur pour le placer au bon moment et ainsi faire le 'buzz', c'est possible, voire probable. Il adore ça ......


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## Pedro y La Torre

If something or someone pisses you off, it can also merely annoy or irritate you. It doesn't have to make you fly into a rage. This is, by the by, the definition given by Collins English Dictionary. I think the translation in the papers is OK. Not perfect perhaps but that's the way it goes.


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## Son of a preacher man

Chimel said:


> I agree with Locape (among others) that _emmerder_ is not really slang or vulgar (any longer), but still there was a general reaction in the media that "a President shouldn't use this kind of language". It's a word everyone daily uses without feeling particularly vulgar, but hearing it in the mouth of an senior official like the French president is still something of a shock (at least for some people).
> 
> So a good translation should reflect the meaning (making someone's life difficult) _and _this subtle language connotation. Not easy!
> 
> From what I have been reading so far here, I would go for
> 
> as it seems to me that "f***ing" has also become just slightly vulgar and nearly daily colloquial language, but still would be a transgression if used by the Prime Minister (or the Queen?  ).


I'd suggest 'I want to really get up their nose' is sufficiently colloquial and personal. It covers the sentiment without being scatological - we're really quite squeamish whenit comes to bodily function. Anglo-Saxon terms are taboo on the BBC.


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## Locape

Welcome to the forums, @Son of a preacher man!  
I like your translation, I didn't think about that one. Could you also say 'get up their nose until the bitter end' (jusqu'au bout)?
@Pedro y La Torre, isn't expressions with _piss_ more used in Ireland than in England?


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## Son of a preacher man

Locape said:


> Welcome to the forums, @Son of a preacher man!
> I like your translation, I didn't think about that one. Could you also say 'get up their nose until the bitter end' (jusqu'au bout)?
> @Pedro y La Torre, isn't expressions with _piss_ more used in Ireland than in England?


Thanks
You can get 'right up' somebody's nose, but to the bitter end implies a protracted struggle rather than a severe penetration (?!).


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## JClaudeK

Locape said:


> until the bitter end' (jusqu'au bout)?


Why "the *bitter *end"?

"jusqu'au bout" est neutre pour moi, aucune connotation négative.


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## moustic

JClaudeK said:


> Why "the *bitter *end"?


Parce que c'est comme ça qu'on dit "jusqu'au bout" 


*to the bitter end,
 until the bitter end* _expr_ (until the difficult end of [sth])jusqu'au bout _loc adv_ They vowed to fight to the bitter end. Ils ont juré de se battre jusqu'au bout.


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## Wodwo

I'm going to stick my neck out and vote for "piss off" as a perfectly good translation. It's the right kind of register, it mentions human waste products, it's in very common usage and I think it's more or less the meaning. Basically, as I understand it, Macron is talking about giving people a hard time, making things difficult for them, the effect of which will be to piss them off. It's not the same, but in a piece of journalism I think it does the job without too much fuss or extravagant mot-justism.


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## Son of a preacher man

Alternatively, in the current context, maybe ' I'm going to keep on needling them' !


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## Wodwo

I think it's important to keep the rudeness aspect. Macron was being deliberately familiar and slightly crude in his choice of vocabulary, without going over the top, as has been pointed out above. The tone is part of the meaning. He's saying he's going to needle the unvaccinated, but also that he's so annoyed he's going to use everyday mildly unpresidential (for him) language - it's a way of undercutting any charges of uptightness and pomposity that might be laid at his door by some.


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## Locape

So it works both ways in English, 'they piss me off' as well as 'I want to piss them off'?


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## Wodwo

Absolutely. "I want to piss them off" is perhaps a sentiment slightly less often expressed than "they piss me off" – for obvious reasons – but yes, I can imagine circumstances in which I might want to piss someone off, or might say that I did.


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## JClaudeK

moustic said:


> Parce que c'est comme ça qu'on dit "jusqu'au bout"
> 
> 
> *to the bitter end,
> until the bitter end*_expr_(until the difficult end of [sth])jusqu'au bout _loc adv_They vowed to fight to the bitter end.Ils ont juré de se battre jusqu'au bout.


Ce n'est pas parce que dans le WRD c'est traduit comme ça que c'est forcément juste.  

"to the very end" (aussi neutre que 'jusqu'au bout') me paraît nettement plus approprié:




*Pons*



> *bout*
> 2. Fin d'un espace de temps, de la durée d'un état, d'une action : Le bout de l'année. Il a dormi* jusqu'au bout du film*.


"to the bitter end of the movie"?


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## Pedro y La Torre

No, moustic is right. In his particular sentence, ''to the bitter end'' sounds better.


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## JClaudeK

Pedro y La Torre said:


> In his particular sentence, ''to the bitter end'' sounds better.


I suppose that you meant _"They vowed to fight to the bitter end." _- agreed, here it fits.


But in the case of Marcron's statement, it doesn't fit, IMO.


> _"Les non-vaccinés, j'ai très envie de les emmerder. Et donc on va continuer de le faire, jusqu'au bout"_,





OLN said:


> C'est sur la durée, à priori sans relâche jusqu'à ce qu'il obtienne que tout les réfractaires non vaccinés soient vaccinés.



Edit:
=> This would be a _happy ending_, not a "bitter end" (for Marcron).


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## trans-latour

La cellule de communication du Président de la République compte, en "temps normal", plusieurs dizaines de personnes dont le but est de soigner l'image donnée par le Président dans les média. De plus, comme pour toute personnalité politique, grâce à des contrats signés avec des sociétés privées, des consultants externes peuvent venir s'ajouter aux collaborateurs attitrés.
Cela n'a rien de surprenant quand on connait l'importance des pôles de communication dans les société privées, et quand on sait que des politiciens bien moins importants peuvent avoir, eux-aussi, plusieurs dizaines de collaborateurs au service de leur communication.
Les "interviews" données à des journaux, le plus souvent, ne s'accompagnent pas d'une rencontre réelle entre le Président et le journaliste, mais d'un échange  de courriers entre la rédaction du journal et la section presse du pôle de communication.
Il va sans dire qu'à 4 mois d'une élection présidentielle, ces exercices sont particulièrement soignés, contrôlés et recontrôlés par des experts de diverses branches ( politologues, sociologues, psychologues, etc...).
Naturellement, tout l'art de cette communication est de savoir laisser leurs illusions à des citoyens crédules, qui pensent encore que la parole des politiques est est du même niveau de secondarité que celui des propos alcoolisés tenus devant le zinc du café du commerce.


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## Laurent2018

Perhaps Novak "JohnCovid" (re-christened by me), a famous non-vaccinated tennisman, is going to learn what's a "bitter end"...


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Milder versions which would be more in line with the policies of some 'obscenity-averse' media of the above-proposed "break their balls" tick:, though) would be "bust their chops", "stay on their case", "keep making it hard on them / keep giving them a hard time", "keep sticking it to them".

I read in a _BD_ — I think it was _Kraken_ — a woman character stuck a gun in a man's crotch and said "[_Fais quelque chose ou_] _je te fais sauter les ovaires!". _


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## moustic

JClaudeK said:


> This would be a _happy ending_, not a "bitter end" (for Marcron)


... but "doing something to the bitter end" doesn't necessarily involve "a _bitter_ end", if you see what I mean 
Here are two dictionary definitions of "to the bitter end":


> - If you say that you will continue doing something to the bitter end, especially something difficult or unpleasant, you are emphasizing that you will continue doing it until it is completely finished.
> 
> - until the point of completion or conclusion, even though it will likely be difficult, unpleasant, or take a long time to reach.


For me, these definitions also correspond to "jusqu'au bout".
Here are some examples:


> - Campaigners vowed to carry on the struggle to the bitter end.
> - Despite his injury, Johnson carried on playing on to the bitter end.
> - But a promise is a promise and we have to pursue this thing to the bitter end.
> - Do I intend to campaign to the bitter end ?
> - He at least was ready to slug it out to the bitter end.
> - I stayed to the bitter end.
> - Master Yehudi always won, and he went on winning to the bitter end.
> - He would fight my case to the bitter end, he vowed.
> - Hereford left it to the bitter end to secure their 1-1 draw.
> - They vowed to fight to the bitter end to stop it.


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## JClaudeK

Don't you agree with Pons' translation



> jusqu'au bout - to the very end



Or with  The Cambridge Dictionary


> jusqu’au bout
> jusqu’à la fin  - until the end
> regarder un film jusqu’au bout             -                   to watch a movie until the end


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## Son of a preacher man

*regarder un film jusqu’au bout - to watch a movie until the end*
Well, when I say 'I watched a movie', it implies I watched it until the end, so if I wanted to emphasise the point I'd say 'to the very end' if it was OK or 'to the bitter end' if it was a dud.


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## moustic

"To the very end" for a film, yes, but the context in the OP is Macron's comment : "j'ai envie de les emmerder jusqu'au bout".
For me, he clearly wants to make life difficult for the unvaccinated _to the bitter end_.


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## Chimel

So, although the subject of the thread was rather the translation of _emmerder_ than _jusqu'au bout_, can we say that _jusqu'au bout_:
- usually translates _to the (very) end_ in a neutral or positive meaning (like watching a - good - movie to the end)
- but translates _to the bitter end_ in a negative meaning, which was the case for Macron's quote.

This nuance between _to the very/bitter end _doesn't exist as such in French, it is _jusqu'au bout_ in both cases.


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## Son of a preacher man

moustic said:


> "To the very end" for a film, yes, but the context in the OP is Macron's comment : "j'ai envie de les emmerder jusqu'au bout".
> For me, he clearly wants to make life difficult for the unvaccinated _to the bitter end_.


Sure, I followed a diversion. 
 I guess there's only one person who could say with certainty what was intended.
My take would be that there's ambiguity. Did he mean 'I want to make them really really pissed off' or I want to keep on pissing them off until they give in' ?
'Si ce n'est pas clair, ce n'est pas français', but I'm not sure that applies to politicians.


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## Son of a preacher man

And now I think of it, how about 'I want to really rub their noses in it'. Evokes the merde and the perception of their bad behaviour, I feel.


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## JClaudeK

Chimel said:


> So, although the subject of the thread was rather the translation of _emmerder_ than _jusqu'au bout_


The thread title contains the two expressions.  



Chimel said:


> This nuance between _to the very/bitter end _doesn't exist as such in French, it is _jusqu'au bout_ in both cases.



Again, "jusqu'au bout" is perfectly neutral.


The German 1:1 equivalent of "to the bitter end" is "bis zum bitteren Ende" and would be far too strong for what Macron said.
The translation "to the bitter end" would sound really sarcastic in  Macron's mouth!



moustic said:


> For me, he clearly wants to make life difficult for the unvaccinated _to the bitter end_.


" _to the bitter end" for the unvaccinated _

Mais une autre interprétation est possible: _jusqu'au bout = _jusqu'à ce qu'il n'y ait plus d'infections   dues au Covid/ des cas graves parmi les malades.
C'est comme ça que j'ai compris "jusqu'au bout".


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## Wodwo

Son of a preacher man said:


> And now I think of it, how about 'I want to really rub their noses in it'. Evokes the merde and the perception of their bad behaviour, I feel.


It does, but it means something different from what he was saying. If you rub someone's nose in something you make them see what they have done in a graphic and unenjoyable way (it's a traditional punishment for animals that crap where they shouldn't, which I'm not endorsing, but I think that's where the phrase comes from).

Macron is not talking about making the unvaxed see what they have done, but hassling them and make their lives difficult.

On the "bitter end" discussion, I don't think it's appropriate here, though it's hard to say why not. I would say more like "I want to piss them off, and keep pissing them off" or something like that, or maybe "I want to keep on pissing them off for as long as it takes".


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