# Victuri



## Anglo1

Hello
What does *victuri* mean?
It is in this context:
_agitur enim non qua condicione victuri, sed victurine simus an cum suppliciis ignominiaque perituri._
Thanks in advance


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## MRossi

It is not on discussion (agitur enim) in which condition we will live (condicione victuri, you should interpretate that " condition" as "it is not important if we will rich or poor , if we will sick or healthy " ), but if we will live (sed victuri*ne simus* ---> ne+congiuntivo in an enclitic form) or if we will die (an ..... perituri)  in a ""honorable way"" (cum supplicio ignominiaque, this last piece it is not exactly translated word for word but it is a my free translation ).

Victuri should be an future active participle of *vivo*.

Victur -us -a-um, you should translate it with a paraphrase something like "we will live " or " a life condition that we can accept " and so on.


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## Angel.Aura

MRossi said:


> Victuri should be an future active participle of *vivo*.


The tense you suggested is the right one, but the verb is *vincere* (_to win_), so that *victuri* are _those who will win, those about to win_.


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## Cagey

Actually, _victuri_ could be from either _vincere_ or _vivere_.   The forms of _vivo_ are:  _vivo, vivere, vixi, victum_.

Here is a commentary on the line:
The epigrammatic turning of this the sentence, arising from the identity in form of the participles of 'vivo' and 'vinco' is untranslatable. [Source: Cicero: Philippic Orations I, II, III, V, VII.   John R. King, ed. (1899)]
This line is from Philippic IV, v.12.  It might be translated into English as either:For the question under discussion is not the condition under which we are going to live, but whether we will live or will die with [humiliating] punishment and degradation. ​orFor the question under discussion is not the condition under which we  are going to win,  but whether we will win or will die with [humiliating]  punishment and degradation.​A true translation would combine the two thoughts.  It is likely that someone will have a suggestion on how to do this.


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## MRossi

Maybe it is better an intermediate translation (the grammatic let it).But cagey do you have a "better" link of [Source: Cicero: Philippic Orations I, II, III, V, VII.   John R. King, ed. (1899)]?,i m unable to read it entirely, i m curious to see how it is the rest of translation,because the context of translation that i have still suggest me "the first translation" .thanks...and sorry my english is inadequate for this kind of translation.


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## Cagey

Here is an edition of the commentary on The Internet Archive. I hope you can see it.  (Search for "arising from the identity in form".) However, it is not a translation.  In fact it is a commentary on a line in the third Philippic and refers to this line to explain something there. 

The translations I find on the internet use "live".  I think that is because it this idea that has the stronger emotional impact; as the note says, it is impossible to find a word that would have the double meaning that is in the Latin.  In the context, I think the Cicero did want both meanings to resonate.  Other people might come to a different conclusion.  Even if you think both meaning are there in the Latin, it is hard to give a smooth translation in English that would reflect this. It may be that it is possible to do it in Italian.


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## MRossi

thanks a lot,could i suggest other two work hypothesis?

what about...



For the question under discussion is not the condition under which we  are going to win, but whether we will live or will die  with [humiliating] punishment and degradation. 

or 

For the question under discussion is not the  condition  under which we are going to live,  but whether we will win or  will die with [humiliating]  punishment and degradation.


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