# EN: He beckoned him back



## diamon

Bonjour,

j'ai un petit problème avec les structure résultative , plus particulièrement un exemple :
He beckoned him back : il lui fit signe de revenir

j'aurais 2 questions : 
1) Pourquoi ne peut-on pas dire  He beckoned him to come back / coming back   // car 2 verbe qui se suivent ( je ne sais pas si on utilise le gerund/infinitive ) ?
2) Un structure résultative c'est le moyen ( ici "faire signe = beckoned") et le résultat ( ici "revenir = come back" ). Le problème c'est que le résultat n'est pas _*certain*_ ? Il peut lui faire signe mais la personne à qui il fait signe ne l'a peut être pas vu. Je ne sais pas si vous me comprenez. Ce que je veux dire c'est que rien nous dit qu'il est revenu contrairement par exemple à cette phrase résultative :  "He locked himself out" , là on est certain qu'il est dehors.

merci
cordialement,


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## Tim~!

diamon said:


> 1) Pourquoi ne peut-on pas dire  He beckoned him to come back / coming back   // car 2 verbe qui se suivent ( je ne sais pas si on utilise le gerund/infinitive ) ?


Beckon means "to indicate to someone to come closer", so there would be no need to add "to come". "He indicated to the man to come back" = "He beckoned the man back"


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## diamon

Thank you very much Tim 
cela répond à ma 1ere question


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## lucas-sp

Is this really resultative, or is it just a verb phrase? There are lots of things you can beckon: "beckon in," "beckon back," "beckon closer," etc. To me, they don't describe what's happening to the object of verb as a result of its accomplishment, but rather they provide more information about the verb itself. That is, although it looks like a resultative to say "She beckoned me in," I think that "in" is describing the way in which she is beckoning me, not what's happening to me (as opposed to, say, "She ran me down," in which case I definitely ended up on the ground; or "She drew me in," which also necessitates that the action was completed and I was drawn closer to her).

I would say this is more like "She rang me up (on the phone)" where the verb is "to ring up." The final word is attached to the verb itself, not to any of the nouns associated with the verb's action. Similarly, think about "She invited me back" - or "She invited me to return." "To invite back" is a different verb than "to invite," and it doesn't make sense to think about "me" being made "back" by the action of her inviting.


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## diamon

Hello
Sorry for posting late
Thank you Lucas-sp
In the second part of your message , you say we must make the difference between "phrasal verb" and "adverbial particules" but it's difficult for me when I watch movies with english subtitles to make the difference between "phrasal verb" and "adverbial particules" when i see "back" , "over", "out" , ...


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## Oddmania

Il y a certains verbes comme ça  

_Could you help me (get) *down*? → Pourrais-tu m'aider à *descendre *?
Could you let me (go) in? → Pourrais-tu me laisser *entrer *?_
etc...


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## Keith Bradford

diamon said:


> ... it's difficult for me when I watch movies with english subtitles to make the difference between "phrasal verb" and "adverbial particules" when i see "back" , "over", "out" , ...



That's because the same construction can be either.  An example: _He looked up the corridor / He looked up the meaning in a dictionary_.  The second one can be rephrased as _he looked it up_ but the first one can't.  (But I have to admit, I don't know which of these is a "phrasal verb" and which is an "adverbial particle" because we English never actually learn this in grammar lessons - it's all obtained by osmosis at about the age of three.)


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## diamon

[…]

@Keith Bradford
_Thank you.
you said "__He looked up the corridor_". The particle "up" is after the verb
Why in this sentence "she beckoned him back" , the word "back" is at the end of the sentence ?
could we say" he looked the corridor up ?"
Thanks
it's so difficult


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## timboleicester

You couldn't here say "he looked the corridor up" unless you meant that he was looking the word up maybe in the dictionary. "to look something up" can be the same as "to look up something" in this sense. but the sense of "up the corridor" is the same as "down the street" implying some sort of movement of the "looking" from one place on the corridor, the nearest place  to the looker to the furthest place from the looker.


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## diamon

Hello,
I'm sorry I don't understand , 
the word "up" is  an adverbial particle or a preposition  here ?  
It's a preposition because we can't say "I looked it up" right ?
The sentence " I looked up the corridor" means " [ I looked up] [the corridor] ( adverbial particle )" or"[I Looked][up the corridor] ( preposition)"
When we have an adverbial particle ( not a phrasal verb ) , what is the place of these particles in the sentence ?
Sorry for being bad


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## timboleicester

No you can say "I looked it up" under some circumstances, but you are right not for "to look up the corridor"

The confusion (in my mind too!) comes from there being two quite different constructions. 

"to look something up" I don't understand this word I am going to look it up (in a dictioanry)
"to look somebody up"  When you are in town remember to look me up = venez me voir. Both of these you can place the "up" where you want...

the example given above with the corridor the "up" has to be before the thing you are looking up. and can't be placed after.... like all good prepositions.

"to look up something" the "up" is a preposition related to the corridor and not the verb... (I have probably made all that up.....)


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## diamon

Hello,
your 2 exemples are both phrasal verbs ? it's the verb to Look up ( somebody or someone )
I would like to do the comparison with the sentence "she beckoned him back" where back is just an adverbial particle
For exemple there are "come by = phrasal verb =visit a person at their house" and "come in = verb + adverbial particles and "in" give an information"
Ok if we forget "the corridor" -> I looked up , it can be either a phrasal verb = search  or just a verb with an adverbial particle = lever les yeux ( I don't know if you speak french ? )
how can I make the difference between a phrasal verb and an adverbial particle for exemple , i'm reading a text and i see "he beckoned him back"

either the word "back"  is describing the way in which she is beckoning me ( post #4 )
or the word back is linked to the verb ( phrasal verb ) and the meaning is totally different. ( i don't know all phrasal verbs )
I can take the exemple "come in" , prasal verb or just a verb+particle giving an information

I don't know if you understand me ?


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## timboleicester

the "back" in beckon back has nothing to do with the verb beckon has it? It's just refers to the place where she would like him to be after the beckoning  ie where he started from presumably where the beckoner is geographically.  The verb is just to beckon not "to beckon back"  unless wierdly he started the beckoning and then she had a go! 

examples of phrasal verbs  such as to look up etc are many........but i don't understand what you mean by verb + particle giving an information (sic)


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## marget

Hello,

I don't think that "to beckon back" is a phrasal verb. 

According to my American grammar textbook of English as a second Language, there are two types of expressions that involve verbs and a "second word": phrasal verbs and preposition combinations. 

A phrasal verb consists of a verb and a particle. Particles are part of the verb phrase and often _change the meaning of the verb_. An example would be "I looked up the word in the dictionary". In this instance, the word "up" is considered to be a particle, not a preposition. It is a word associated with this specific verb. "To look (something/someone) up" has a precise meaning. 

If I say "I looked up the street" or "I looked down/across the street", for that matter, "up", "down" and "across" are considered to be prepositions that can convey meaning /direction with various verbs. They are not necessarily associated with a specific verb. I could just as easily say "I walked (ran, skipped) up/down/across the street". These are examples of preposition combinations. 

As Keith Bradford said, particles and prepositions look the same. They do not, however, act in the same way when used with verbs.

I hope that helps.


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## timboleicester

lucas-sp said:


> "She beckoned me in," I think that "in" is describing the way in which she is beckoning me, not what's happening to me


Indeed the "in" is the propostion and tells us about where you are going to end up....nothing to do with the way she beckoned.


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## Keith Bradford

Bon, considérons la categorie verbe + direction (je ne sais pas comment tu appelles ça). P.ex, En français :_ il dirige la voiture *vers le nord*. Il tourne le volant *à gauche*.._. En anglais : _He steers the car *north*. He turns the wheel *left*_. Pour nous les phrases suivantes sont du même type :

He invited me *in*.
He put the book *down*.
She turned the television *up*.
...et ton original : He beckoned him *back.

*Dans tous ces cas, la préposition/l'expression adverbiale sert comme adverbe pour qualifier le verbe, généralement dans un sens géographique (_north, left_) mais aussi par extension dans un sens figuratif (ici *up *= fortissimo).

Or, tous ces verbes peuvent être suivis d'un pronom (she turned it up, he put it down). Mais également par une expression beaucoup plus longue (_He *invited in *not only me but a crowd of other people. He *beckoned back *the boat that had been about to leave_.) Et dans ces cas-là on trouve souvent que l'ordre des mots change, pour ne pas isoler le pauvre petit adverbe en fin de phrase. Ce n'est pas très différent du français : _Il *dirige vers le nord *la voiture qu'il avait volé à son beau-père_.

La il est clair, je pense, que ces "prépositions" ne le sont pas - ce sont des adverbes de position.

Par contraste, _he looked up the street _est aussi classique que _he sat on the cat _: verbe+préposition+objet direct


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## diamon

Thanks a lot
I understand now the difference between preposition/particle
It's difficult to explain
you said "the "back" in beckon back has nothing to do with the verb beckon has it" Ok but the word "back" what is it ? an adverbial particule right ? ok now this word "back" can be ( not especially in this sentence ) : 
- phrasal verb ( to look up , carry on , go on , give up)  the new verb has a *different meaning*
- or *the place where she would like him to be* ( post #13 ) 
how can I make the difference between these 2 types of verbs 
i take an example : Come in  ( according to http://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/phrasaldictionary.html , this is not a phrasal verb ) but if i don't know that, i can say:
1)Ok it is a phrasal verb but I don't know the meaning  and i must take a dictioanry 
2) it is the verb come  and the particle "in" indicates the place they want me to be . to translate i say : to come = venir ; in =intérieur donc come in : venir à l'intérieur = entrer). the problem with phrasal verb is that i can't do the same analysis.

EDIT : i didn't see your post Keith Bradford.


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## marget

When you say "the problem with phrasal verb is that i can't do the same analysis", that's absolutely true.  These verbs must be studied and practiced.  It's difficult and often impossible to analyze them.


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## diamon

OK thank you marget
so we have some phrasal verbs which are easy to understand ( come in , go in , go out , ... ) and some phrasal verbs are very difficult ( go on , look up , ..)


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## Keith Bradford

diamon said:


> ...so some phrasal verbs are very difficult ( go on , look up , ..)



Hélas, oui. En plus, les anglophones continuent à les inventer... Console-toi, parfois je ne comprends plus les journalistes les plus branchés, surtout américains.


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## diamon

Hello,
Merci Keith Bradford
Merci à tous pour votre aide et votre patience 
Thank you everybody for your help and for being patient 

je vais essayer de rencontrer le plus possible de ces verbes ( films , .. ) et je pense que cela finira par rentrer


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