# Составленным / составленном (pronunciation)



## ahvalj

Miralasa said:


> называть(ся) [+_Acc_] +_Instr_ — to name smth smth/to be called smth.
> Two other adjectives are related to the word 'отчет', and they are in _Prep _which is governed by the locative preposition _в_.
> Their Instr forms are _составленн*ым*_ and _упоминавш*им*_. They are probably homophones, though.


I pronounce _составленн*о*м_ and _составленн*ы*м_ differently. In a more careful speech the same is true for _упоминавш*е*м_ and _упоминавш*и*м_.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> I pronounce _составленн*о*м_ and _составленн*ы*м_ differently. In a more careful speech the same is true for _упоминавш*е*м_ and _упоминавш*и*м_.



I pronounce _составленн*о*м_ and _составленн*ы*м_ the same about half the time, and _упоминавш*е*м_ and _упоминавш*и*м_ the same almost always.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> I pronounce _составленн*о*м_ and _составленн*ы*м_ differently. In a more careful speech the same is true for _упоминавш*е*м_ and _упоминавш*и*м_.


St.Petersburg speech has some addictional features of northern dialects compared to the Moscow speech, including the mentioned distinction between unstressed /i/ and /e/.
However, if we speak about general processes in the language, the 681 000 hits in Google for the misspelled variant "попроб*ы*вать" are quite saying.


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## Drink

Awwal12 said:


> the 681 000 hits in Google for the misspelled variant "попроб*ы*вать" are quite saying.



I used to always say "попроб*ыва*ю", which is a completely different paradigm, rather than just a misspelling.


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## ahvalj

I don't think it is related to the northern dialects: just a more conservative approach to the evolution of the vocalism. Many Muscovites (though only one among my acquaintances from there) as well as people close to the Urals have a chopped speech with longer stressed and shorter unstressed vowels and a sing-song intonation. Interestingly, the iconic old Muscovite pronunciation _д'раагой_ with an emphatically lengthened pretonic vowel seems to be disappearing (I know only one person speaking this way).

I really have never heard _попробывать_ and doubt that even in Moscow unstressed _о/а_ and _ы_ can normally be merged, so I rather agree with Drink that the users of this variant (who are they?) just tend to move this verb from the type_ -овать/-ую_ to _-ывать/-ываю_.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> I really have never heard _попробывать_ and doubt that even in Moscow unstressed _о/а_ and _ы_ can normally be merged, so I rather agree with Drink that the users of this variant (who are they?) just tend to move this verb from the type_ -овать/-ую_ to _-ывать/-ываю_.


Not any unstressed, for sure. However, the 1st syllable after the stressed one, especially when followed by another syllable, is the position of the strongest reduction possible.
"Попробывать" is indeed a change of the pardigm, but that change would be hardly possible if /o/ -> /а/ and /ы/ in this position were pronounced differently.


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## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> "Попробывать" is indeed a change of the pardigm, but that change would be hardly possible if /o/ -> /а/ and /ы/ in this position were pronounced differently.


Actually, in this particular class of verbs it did happen and before any vowel reductions. The original Slavic way to form secondary imperfectives from verbs with consonant roots was a lengthened non-acuted grade of the root vowel + the suffix _-a-_, e. g. from _*perpьsati/*perpišǫ_ it must have looked _**perpisati/**perpisajǫ_. This, however, started to change some time before the first written records and occurred differently in different Slavic dialects. Czech, e. g. has used the old _-ova-/-uj-_ class: _přepisovat/přepisuju_, Bulgarian and Belarusian — the suffix _-ъv-_ with the verb in the _a/aj_ class: _преписвам_ and _перапісваць/перапісваю_, Polish and Serbo-Croatian have _-ywa-/-iva-_ in the Infinitive but _-uj-_ in the Present: _przepisywać/przepisuję_ (vs. _próbować/próbuję_ in the regular _-owa-/-uj- _class) and _преписивати/преписујем_, whereas Russian has developed the _-yva-/-yvaj-_ type: _переписывать/переписываю_. So, the vowel before this _-va-_ depending on the Slavic dialect may be _-ъ-, -o-_ or _-y-_. The occasional pairs like _обязывать/обязую_ (with the Church Slavonic Present form) reflect the steps of the development of the latter type in Russian.

Update. Ukrainian, too, has _-ova-/-uj-_: _переписувати/переписую_. So, each of the literary East Slavic languages has went its own way, in the dialects the distribution must be even more motley, which is the source of the abovementioned vacillation between _пробовать_ and _пробывать_.

Update 2. Another source of confusion in this class of verbs may be the occasional cooccurrence in the modern language of both suffixes in the imperfectivizing function: e. g. the Church Slavonic проповедать/проповедовать vs. the proper Russian отведать/отведывать.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> I really have never heard _попробывать_ and doubt that even in Moscow unstressed _о/а_ and _ы_ can normally be merged



I agree with Awwal12 that in post-tonic closed syllables even _ы_ becomes less distinct. For example, I pronounce _опыт_ and _отдых_ as if they were spelled _опот_ and _отдох_.


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> I agree with Awwal12 that in post-tonic closed syllables even _ы_ becomes less distinct. For example, I pronounce _опыт_ and _отдых_ as if they were spelled _опот_ and _отдох_.


I have never ever heard such a pronunciation. Apparently, a New England Russian is emerging.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> I have never ever heard such a pronunciation. Apparently, a New England Russian is emerging.



Let's hear from some more москвичи before concluding anything. And just to be clear, this is not an [a] sound, but a very indistinct [ə], possibly even [ɘ] or [ɪ̈], which are in between [ə] and [ɨ].


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> this is not an [a] sound, but a very indistinct [ə], possibly even [ɘ] or [ɪ̈], which are in between [ə] and [ɨ].


Do you mean that you pronounce the last vowels in the pairs _опыт/ропот_ and _отдых/порох_ identically?


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## Словеса

Awwal12 said:


> However, if we speak about general processes in the language, the 681 000 hits in Google for the misspelled variant "попроб*ы*вать" are quite saying.


I often misspell _а_ for _о_ (and vice-versa), and _е_ for _и_ (and vice versa) in stressed syllables.


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## ahvalj

Словеса said:


> I often misspell _а_ for _о_ (and vice-versa), and _е_ for _и_ (and vice versa) in stressed syllables.


This is the consequence of the liberal post-Soviet school. I recall my teacher around 1982 making me to rewrite an exercise at _продлёнка_ 22 times until she was satisfied with the way I write a letter.


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## Drink

ahvalj said:


> Do you mean that you pronounce the last vowels in the pairs _опыт/ропот_ and _отдых/порох_ identically?



Yes.



Словеса said:


> I often misspell _а_ for _о_ (and vice-versa), and _е_ for _и_ (and vice versa) in stressed syllables.



Do you mean as a typo, or because you pronounce it that way? If it's the latter, I'd like to see some examples.


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## ahvalj

Drink said:


> Yes.


Let's indeed wait for other people to comment this, but I would be very surprised to learn that anywhere in Russia the vowel reduction has went so far.


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## Словеса

ahvalj said:


> This is the consequence of the liberal post-Soviet school.


Note that I never make this mistake in unstressed syllables, like in your example. So, your hypothesis fails.
However, what matters is that:
1. That people make a spelling mistake does not mean that the two words sound similar;
2. That people make a spelling mistake does not mean that the two words sound identical;
3. It is hardly possible to distinguish whether two words sound identical, similar, or different, because the word does not sound like itself said at a different time… This point was probably addressed by phonetists, but I am talking primarily of the first two.
In other words, existence of spelling mistakes is not a definite argument for conclusions about similarity or identicality of sounds.


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## Словеса

Drink said:


> Do you mean as a typo, or because you pronounce it that way? If it's the latter, I'd like to see some examples.


Yes, I mean it's a typo.


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## Drink

Словеса said:


> Note that I never make this mistake in unstressed syllables





Словеса said:


> Yes, I mean it's a typo.



How do you magically avoid typos in unstressed syllables?


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## ahvalj

Словеса said:


> Note that I never make this mistake in unstressed syllables, like in your example. So, your hypothesis fails.


_«Позвольте, но как же он служил в очистке?»_ ©
How then did you manage to pass the exams?


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## Словеса

Drink said:


> How do you magically avoid typos in unstressed syllables?


No idea. I am amazed myself. It's the same whether I use the keyboard or the pen.
To ahvalj: well, first, this depends on whether I am concentrated or not. Second, I of course promptly see the mistake and correct it.


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## Словеса

Словеса said:


> No idea.


Well, it may be that: stressed syllables grab most unconscious attention, and the unconscious attention (that I become aware of existence of such rules) brings about the mistake.


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## ahvalj

Time to split the thread: the discussion of the degree of the vowel reduction in the posttonic syllables, being much more global, deserves to be separated from the original question.


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