# Step up to the plate



## James Brandon

I have found the following definition: "Step up to the plate" means to take your turn at bat in baseball. 

So, the term is clearly American in origin but I have found/heard the expression used (figuratively) quite a lot in the British media recently. 

Can you confirm its origin and meaning (the derived metaphorical meaning being, as I understand: "step forward in order to take your turn and act"), and also explain why (in baseball) you talk about "the plate"?

Thanks


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## swyves

I understand it to mean that; and the "plate" is a flat plate on the ground indicating where the batter stands to bat. As an idiom, I'd say it could also be "to accept a challenge that others have also attempted", or perhaps just "to come forward and take on a challenge"


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## TrentinaNE

Baseball has four bases: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and home. The home base, where the batter stands, is also known as "home plate." The Answer Guy at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer gives this explanation:


> ... courtesy of Skip McAfee, editor of the upcoming new edition of the definitive "Dickson Baseball Dictionary." It turns out that, in earliest days, home was actually a circular object, often a dish, which, naturally enough, led to it being called "home plate." Home went through various permutations in subsequent years -- a circular iron plate in 1845; a 12-inch square in 1869 with one point toward the pitcher; a square marble slab in 1872; a white rubber square in 1885 that reduced injuries to runners. The five-sided home plate we know today was adopted in 1900, ...


 
I agree with swyves that there is an element of "taking on a challenge" in the idiomatic expression "step up to the plate."  When you take into account that a .300 average is considered very successful in the major leagues (3 hits every 10 times up at bat), you can see that batting is a very challenging activity.   

Elisabetta


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## Sabelotodo

It can also mean to take on a responsibility, especially an unexpected one.  For example:

_When Joe found out his girlfriend was expecting a baby he was shocked, but he decided to step up to the plate and be a good father to the child._

_OR_

_When her father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, her brothers suggested a nursing home, but she stepped up to the plate and became her father's caregiver at home._


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## James Brandon

Thanks, it is very clear and the idiomatic expression, used metaphorically, clearly and directly derives from the baseball context and is American English. I understand that the expression is not "neutral" (to step forward in order to do something) but incorporates the idea of a "challenge" (somewhat contained, in fact, in the idea of 'stepping forward', when perhaps others would not). I suspected "the plate" was what you describe in baseball, since it made sense. So, no unexpected twists and turns here! Pure linguistic logic all the way, which is maybe rare enough to be noted!


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## Pernambuco

<< This thread was merged with an earlier one. >>

Hi,

I just heard this from a cnn radio podcast. Does this expression mean to take responsibility?


"(...) Obama administration is making sure Afganistan President Amid Karzai knows his government has *to step up to the plate*."


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## entangledbank

Yes, it comes from baseball, I think. A pitcher steps up to the plate, which is the place where he stands to throw balls. It's his turn now. So 'step up to the plate' metaphorically means "take your turn to try to win the game".


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## cuchuflete

entangledbank said:


> Yes, it comes from baseball, I think. A pitcher steps up to the plate, which is the place where he stands to throw balls. It's his turn now. So 'step up to the plate' metaphorically means "take your turn to try to win the game".



Etb, let's make a deal.  I will refrain from describing cricket if you will be a little more restrained in your descriptions of baseball.  

A pitcher stands on the mound, or the rubber, which is on the mound.  He winds up, then throws the ball to the plate.  (Home plate).  The batter (hitter) stands on one side or the other of home plate, and attempts to hit the ball or decides to let it go by without swinging at it if he thinks it is out of the strike zone.  {A strike zone is not a reference to British Leyland workers' propensity to engage in "labor actions" whenever they were within a mile of a company facility.}

Metaphorically, "step up to the plate" means to take one's turn to attempt to do something useful.  That is not in any way limited to attempts to win a game of baseball, or any metaphoric equivalents, with one turn at bat.

Most AE speakers, including those with no interest in or knowledge of baseball, take _step up to the plate_ to mean
_accept a challange, or take on a responsibility._

Baseball is not really a game.  It is a metaphor for life, and often a powerful soporific.


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## entangledbank

I know exactly as much about cricket as I do about baseball or, what's that other one, tennis. But I'd like to point out that 'step up to' makes no sense if you're not actually stepping up to it. That is all.


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## cuchuflete

We share an equal awareness of cricket, etb.  The batter does step up to the plate in baseball.  He waits his turn either in the "dugout" or in the "on deck circle", and when it is his turn to face the pitcher, who throws a hard ball either past him or, illegally but not too uncommonly, _*at*_ him, he steps up to the plate to accept the challange.  This is not trivial, as the ball may be thrown at ninety to one hundred miles per hour. Batters hit by a pitch—a thrown baseball—have suffered severe bruises, concussions, and even broken bones.  

  You do seem to have grasped the essentials of this part of baseball very well.

Tennis?  Is that the game with clubs and a little white ball that ends up in the water?


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## entangledbank

Oh, wait, I see. Blinding illumination. A pitcher is throwing the ball, and a batter is trying to hit it. _That makes sense_. I think there's something like that in cricket.


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## Pernambuco

Thank you all. It´s chrystal clear now!


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## ewanek

<<ewanek. I have moved your thread here because it is asking the same question.  Yours has been translated into English and probably the translator wasn't too sure how to use the expression.  I hope the posts above answer your question >>

Hello, I am trying to understand what Milla Jovovich has to say (see the excerpt below). I am not sure what exactly she means by "step up to one's plate". To "try hard"? Thank you.

I think the original text was in Croatian, translated to English.

Do you consider yourself a strong woman?
- Yes, definitely. And I consider myself a very weak woman, too. I consider myself lots of things. I contemplate things a lot. Everybody’s got a very facet to their personality. Everybody is strong when they need to be. You imagine something in your head, and you think ‚I can never survive that.’ And suddenly something happens and *you step up to your plate*, because you have to. For me the strong part is the one that everybody sees.


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## cyberpedant

To American English speakers this is an allusion to baseball. When a batter "steps up to the plate" he is putting himself in a position of "success or failure now" —because he has to. There is a possibility that the phrase has some other meaning in other cultures, but I can't think of one.


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## Parla

The notion of assuming responsibility is a key one; see especially post #4.


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## Copyright

ewanek said:


> And suddenly something happens and *you step up to your plate*, because you have to. For me the strong part is the one that everybody sees.


My only comment is that I've never heard "step up to *your* plate" -- you always "step up to *the* plate."


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## csicska

Hello. I have read this < -- > thread but am still a bit confused about the meaning of "step up to the plate". Could anyone please paraphrase it for me?

Does it mean "I am prepared to accept the challenge that is coming to me and do my best" or something like that? Maybe a short substitution would help. Thank you.

Example: Step up to the plate to stop food waste (theguardian.com)

<< Mod note:  Threads now merged.  Please add question to a previous thread rather than start a new one.   >>


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## owlman5

You have the right idea, csicska. "Accept the challenge" or "prepare to take action on something" are good ways of paraphrasing "step up to the plate."


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## csicska

Thank you very much, owlman5.


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## jlwlondon

James Brandon said:


> I have found the following definition: "Step up to the plate" means to take your turn at bat in baseball.
> 
> So, the term is clearly American in origin but I have found/heard the expression used (figuratively) quite a lot in the British media recently.
> 
> Can you confirm its origin and meaning (the derived metaphorical meaning being, as I understand: "step forward in order to take your turn and act"), and also explain why (in baseball) you talk about "the plate"?
> 
> Thanks




Hi, here's my English version of the meaning. My father always said it meant stepping up to the plate on a steam engine, which meant being in control of it.

E.G. The *footplate* of a steam locomotive is a large metal plate that rests on top of the frames and is normally covered with wooden floorboards. ...  The boiler, the cab, and other superstructure elements are in turn mounted on the footplate. The footplate does extend beyond the front of the cab on some locomotives, but is then usually referred to as the "running board/plate." The footplate is where the Driver and Fireman stand in the cab to operate the locomotive, giving rise to the expression of working _on the footplate_[1] for being in the cab of a steam locomotive. ...
Source: Wikipedia

Now, you would actually have to STEP UP to stand on the plate.  So I think my English version is correct.

_[[ Edited by panjandrum (moderator) to limit to four sentences of quoted text, and to include reference to the source. ]]_


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## Andygc

Welcome to the forum, but:





jlwlondon said:


> My father always said it meant stepping up to the plate on a steam engine, which meant being in control of it.





jlwlondon said:


> So I think my English version is correct


If it was it would be "Step up to the footplate". 

"Step up to the plate" was, in figurative use, a completely unknown and unused expression in BE when I was a child and young adult. It does not appear in the British National Corpus, but there are 234 examples in the Corpus of Contemporary American English. I have found some examples from British books from the 1930s and 1950s, but they are descriptions of how to play baseball.

This Google ngram makes it clear how recent (and how rare) this is in BE - long after national railway steam trains stopped running in Britain (although diesels do have footplates).


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## panjandrum

The footplate on UK steam locomotives is not abbreviated to 'the plate'. Or if it is, I was not able to find any reference to it. The 'plate' on a steam locomotive bears its name and is attached to the front or the side.

US locomotives do not have a footplate.  From the same source that jlwlondon used:
American practice mounted the locomotive's boiler and cab directly on the frame.[2] The walkways and running boards seen on American locomotives that sometimes give an appearance of a footplate are attached to the boiler or the pilot and are not structural elements. The absence of a footplate on American locomotives is one thing that makes them look "not quite right" to those accustomed to the British look.​
Along with the clear evidence that this expression is US-based, it seems highly improbable that it has anything to do with steam trains.


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## James Brandon

Re-reading the thread, the consensus view was that it was AE in origin, not BE, and linked to the game of baseball (where 'the plate' is a designated area of the pitch, if I understood correctly), not to railway transport (and steam engines). On balance, it sounds like the baseball metaphor is more likely, I think.


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## srk

entangledbank said:
			
		

> I'd like to point out that 'step up to' makes no sense if you're not actually stepping up to it.





			
				jlwlondon said:
			
		

> Now, you would actually have to STEP UP to stand on the [foot]plate. So I think my English version is correct.


"Step up" in "step up to the plate" in baseball has the sense of "come forward."  From AHD online.

*2.  *To come forward:  _step up and be counted.
_
A batter steps forward into an area called the batter's box and stands next to (has stepped up to) the plate.  Play can't continue until the batter is in this position.
_



 _


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## exgerman

Further explanation of srk's illustration: the 5-angled thingy in the middle is home plate. The outlined squares are the batter's boxes, and there are two of them, one for right-handed hitters, one for left-handed ones.


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## sdgraham

srk said:


> "Step up" in "step up to the plate" in baseball has the sense of "come forward."  From AHD online.
> 
> *2.  *To come forward:  _step up and be counted.
> _
> A batter steps forward into an area called the batter's box and stands next to (has stepped up to) the plate.  Play can't continue until the batter is in this position.



I don't find "step up to the plate" in the linked site, but note that in baseball, the batter is a single member of his team facing all nine of the opposing players arrayed against him. Thus it carries more meaning than just "come forward."

It also implies "accept the challenge," etc.


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## srk

sdgraham said:
			
		

> Thus it carries more meaning than just "come forward."


... which explains its figurative use.

I only meant to address the literal basis for the expression.  I wanted to refute the idea expressed in previous posts that "step up" has no literal meaning in the phrase as it is used in baseball.

A batter also literally steps up to the plate for batting practice, where he/she is unopposed.


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## Sparky Malarky

srk said:


> ... which explains its figurative use.
> 
> I only meant to address the literal basis for the expression.  I wanted to refute the idea expressed in previous posts that "step up" has no literal meaning in the phrase as it is used in baseball.
> 
> A batter also literally steps up to the plate for batting practice, where he/she is unopposed.



But in a game, the batter has to literally step up to the plate before the game can proceed.  The pitcher is not allowed to throw until the batter is in place.  The batter might stand outside of the batter's box (square painted on the ground) and swing the bat a few times for practice.  You might think the pitcher could cheat by throwing the ball before he is ready, but the pitcher can't do that.  Everyone must wait for him.  The whole game stops until he is ready.  When he is ready he - literally - steps up to the plate.  

It is common for batters to take a moment before they step to the plate.  It looks as if they are mentally preparing for the challenge.  They probably are!


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## James Brandon

The explanations regarding the meaning and procedure in baseball are interesting and relevant, because they give a better sense of what the expression (used figuratively) means. It seems to me quite clear that the expression does come from baseball.


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## Siavash2015

Hello everyone.I checked all comments but still puzzled. would anyone help me with this idiom? Step up to the plate

Barney: how long has it been?( without sex)
Ted: fifty seven days
Barney: fifty seven days!! Ted, you are in a slump.
Ted: no it's not a slump. It's an intentional hiatus from girls. a slump is when you strike out every time you step up to the plate. But I'm off the roster, baby

I guess it doesn't mean to take responsibility
Would you please help?

(much obliged)


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## pob14

Here it means "attempt to accomplish something" (see post 2), specifically to approach women with the goal of getting a date and, ultimately, sex.


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## Siavash2015

Th


pob14 said:


> Here it means "attempt to accomplish something" (see post 2), specifically to approach women with the goal of getting a date and, ultimately, sex.



Thanks a bunch Pob14  you made me take a huge step towards comprehension of this idiom.......this is a particular aspect of this idioms 'meaning that I'd got stuck. Interesting!.....I've seen in many dictionaries it means( to take on responsibility or challenge) but here it's new on me. I'd much obliged if you explained it further like by making an example sentence related to this aspect of meaning you mentioned.

Thank you infinitely


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## James Brandon

I take it 'a slump' is a baseball term that is relevant to the use of the phrase here. An AE speaker who is familiar with baseball will be able to explain further. In other words, it is a figurative and colloquial use of the expression, which clearly comes from baseball, transferring the use of the phrase from one context (sports) to another (sex/ relationships).


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## Siavash2015

James Brandon said:


> I take it 'a slump' is a baseball term that is relevant to the use of the phrase here. An AE speaker who is familiar with baseball will be able to explain further. In other words, it is a figurative and colloquial use of the expression, which clearly comes from baseball, transferring the use of the phrase from one context (sports) to another (sex/ relationships).



Thank you, good point


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## James Brandon

A slump is just a general term, it would appear, as in here (American Heritage Dictionary): "An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity:_a slump in a batting average." _

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slump

The technical term relating to baseball specifically is 'strikeout', as in here, and not 'slump', as further research shows: _"In baseball, a situation in which a player fails to hit the ball three times, or in which a pitcher makes three good throws that a player does not attempt to hit."_

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/strikeout#strikeout_4

So, what the phrase you quote means -- and I can't say I find the wording particularly subtle or delicate, I must say -- is that 'a slump' would be 'when you step up to the plate' and you fail each and every time (e.g.: you 'strike out'); in his case, it is not a 'slump' or failure, since he has not been trying (to find/ bed a girl), hence he calls it 'a hiatus'.

That's all it is. But the baseball metaphor makes it hard to understand at first if you are not familiar with the game. In other words, the character in question is abstaining (from sex) and it is his decision, as opposed to being forced into it due to a lack of opportunities he would have been trying to generate/ provoke.

Where did you find this? In some American short story with college students as the main characters?


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## Siavash2015

Thank you for your helpful comments. it's the TV show (how I met your mother)


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## Siavash2015

James Brandon said:


> A slump is just a general term, it would appear, as in here (American Heritage Dictionary): "An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity:_a slump in a batting average." _
> 
> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slump
> 
> The technical term relating to baseball specifically is 'strikeout', as in here, and not 'slump', as further research shows: _"In baseball, a situation in which a player fails to hit the ball three times, or in which a pitcher makes three good throws that a player does not attempt to hit."_
> 
> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/strikeout#strikeout_4
> 
> So, what the phrase you quote means -- and I can't say I find the wording particularly subtle or delicate, I must say -- is that 'a slump' would be 'when you step up to the plate' and you fail each and every time (e.g.: you 'strike out'); in his case, it is not a 'slump' or failure, since he has not been trying (to find/ bed a girl), hence he calls it 'a hiatus'.
> 
> That's all it is. But the baseball metaphor makes it hard to understand at first if you are not familiar with the game. In other words, the character in question is abstaining (from sex) and it is his decision, as opposed to being forced into it due to a lack of opportunities he would have been trying to generate/ provoke.
> 
> Where did you find this? In some American short story with college students as the main characters?



you explained it marvelously. I really admire it


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## James Brandon

I did a little bit of online research starting here: http://www.onelook.com/

An AE speaker may want to confirm I got it right: a knowledge of baseball (which I do not have) would be a plus here.


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## RM1(SS)

James Brandon said:


> I did a little bit of online research starting here: http://www.onelook.com/
> 
> An AE speaker may want to confirm I got it right: a knowledge of baseball (which I do not have) would be a plus here.


I don't pay attention to baseball (an incredibly boring game, in my opinion), but your explanation sounds good to me:


James Brandon said:


> A slump is just a general term, it would appear, as in here (American Heritage Dictionary): "An extended period of poor performance, especially in a sport or competitive activity:_a slump in a batting average." _
> 
> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slump
> 
> The technical term relating to baseball specifically is 'strikeout', as in here, and not 'slump', as further research shows: _"In baseball, a situation in which a player fails to hit the ball three times, or in which a pitcher makes three good throws that a player does not attempt to hit."_
> 
> http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/strikeout#strikeout_4
> 
> So, what the phrase you quote means -- and I can't say I find the wording particularly subtle or delicate, I must say -- is that 'a slump' would be 'when you step up to the plate' and you fail each and every time (e.g.: you 'strike out'); in his case, it is not a 'slump' or failure, since he has not been trying (to find/ bed a girl), hence he calls it 'a hiatus'.


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## Steve B

It's abundantly clear that "step up to the plate" derives from American baseball. As a US baseball fan, then, I was startled recently watching an episode of the British TV show "Call the Midwife." The show takes place in the early 1960s in London's East End, following a group of nuns and midwives ministering to the poor residents. One of the nuns says to a midwife, "Someone is going to have to step up to the plate," referring to a need to confront a challenge. Is there any likelihood at all that a nun in a 1961 poor London district would have known such an idiom?


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## sdgraham

Welcome to the forum, Steve B.

Good question. Let's see what our BE friends say.


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## James Brandon

Good question indeed. If we agree that 'step up to the plate' is American English in origin, and that it stems from baseball, and there appears to be a consensus view that it is the case, the expression could have been around in the  UK (imported from the USA) as early as the 1960s, but I suspect featuring those characters using it, supposedly, in the 1960s, in Britain, may well be anachronistic.

My impression is that the common use of the expression in England is relatively recent: in the past 15 to 20 years maybe. But I could be wrong. Other BE speakers may want to comment and clarify.

It is quite possible that the scriptwriters used the expression in question in the dialogue, not even realising/ knowing that it is AE in origin...


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## srk

sdgraham said:


> Let's see what our BE friends say.


Here are some ngrams.  It looks as though the expression wasn't used in books published in the UK around that time.


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## James Brandon

So, it would have become more commonly used in the UK from 1985 onwards...


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## Edinburgher

I see this is a fairly old thread, but as I'm really far from au fait with baseball (or rounders, for that matter), if someone were to ask me out of the blue what "stepping up to the plate" meant, my first thought would involve a connection to the collection plate (such as at church), and since any donation you might care to drop into this plate is a way of making a contribution, the extended meaning of making a cause your own, or of taking responsibility (to ensure something happens) is certainly not far-fetched.


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## Barque

Steve B said:


> One of the nuns says to a midwife, "Someone is going to have to step up to the plate,"


Perhaps the nun was American?


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## James Brandon

I am not sure the idea of the 'collection plate' was mentioned before (I have not re-read the entire thread, which goes back...>10 years): it stands to reason. And I haven't seen the TV series in question, so that I don't know whether the nun in question is American or not! Many or most contributors from America seemed to link the expression to baseball.


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## sdgraham

James Brandon said:


> I am not sure the idea of the 'collection plate' was mentioned before (I have not re-read the entire thread, which goes back...>10 years): it stands to reason. And I haven't seen the TV series in question, so that I don't know whether the nun in question is American or not! Many or most contributors from America seemed to link the expression to baseball.


Since cricket doesn't have a "plate," the baseball connection seems obvious.


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## James Brandon

True: I was also referring to the idea of the 'collection plate' (#45).


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## GreenWhiteBlue

A collection plate does not work as an image here, because one does not step up to a collection plate; instead, the collection plate is brought (or more commonly, passed) to a person as he or she is sitting in a pew.


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## Andygc

Steve B said:


> Is there any likelihood at all that a nun in a 1961 poor London district would have known such an idiom?


About as likely as finding a mare's nest and marginally less likely than seeing a flying pig.


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## James Brandon

Not my suggestion, regarding the 'collection plate', but fair enough, you have a point. On balance, it seems pretty clear to me that the origin of the phrase lies in the game of baseball.

And as for the American nun, I also think this sounds unlikely and a bit far-fetched: I think it is yet another case of scriptwriters using anachronistic language, due to their own lack of interest in (and awareness of) the history of language (including idioms).


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## Bonzobog

In steam days (here in the UK early 1800's to the 1960's), a railway employee would expect to have to work as a general 'Shed' worker then a fireman for maybe as long as 30 years, before he was able to take a 'Step up to the plate' or footplate, to become a driver.


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## James Brandon

Your railway-related interpretation (above) was mentioned back in 2015 and rejected by several contributors; the consensus view (not mine!) appeared to be that the idiomatic expression does come from AE and the game of baseball.

Having said that, it is interesting that various people in the UK would be sure that the expression was known in its own right in Britain and would relate to the 'footplate' in the days of steam (engines). Further enquiries may be needed to establish whether there may be a British origin to the phrase or not... It can be very hard to tell when looking into the precise origin of a given expression like this.


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## Andygc

It seems that some repetition is needed for those who post without reading what has gone before.


Andygc said:


> "Step up to the plate" was, in figurative use, a completely unknown and unused expression in BE when I was a child and young adult. It does not appear in the British National Corpus, but there are 234 examples in the Corpus of Contemporary American English. I have found some examples from British books from the 1930s and 1950s, but they are descriptions of how to play baseball.
> 
> This Google ngram makes it clear how recent (and how rare) this is in BE - long after national railway steam trains stopped running in Britain (although diesels do have footplates).


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## Bonzobog

Andygc said:


> It seems that some repetition is needed for those who post without reading what has gone before.



You are of course correct regarding what repetition means, but what I wrote wasn't repetitious, I believe I added something, I didn't know I am not entitled to voice my own opinion.


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## Andygc

Of course you can express your opinion, but you have repeated something already said (post 20), with no evidence to support what you said, and despite evidence to the contrary. You also do not seem to know that the fireman who became a driver had already climbed onto the footplate (not "plate") - it's difficult to stoke a firebox from anywhere else.


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## Egmont

Andygc said:


> ... it's difficult impossible, at least in practice, to stoke a firebox from anywhere else.


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## Andygc

I think that mine was an example of understatement.


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## Andygc

PS I can't think why I didn't quote the OED sooner.



> *Draft additions December 2005*
> _intr._ _N. Amer._ to step (up) to the plate.
> 
> a. Baseball. To enter the batter's box for a turn at bat.
> 
> b._fig._ To take action in response to an opportunity, crisis, or challenge; to take responsibility for something.


Meaning (a) first citation from 1875, meaning (b) first citation 1919. All citations from American sources.


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## James Brandon

This is what had emerged before in this Thread, i.e. that the American origin of the phrase is well-attested with a range of sources (linked to baseball), whereas the possible British origin (linked to the railways) seems less convincing and perhaps, really, some folk etymology.

However, if someone heard the phrase in a certain context and was told that is the origin, it is understandable they would consider this to be a credible explanation, so, it cannot be dismissed out of hand in my view. It can happen that there would be several origins of the expression, in fact, running concurrently, although this does not seem to be the case here.

Another point to bear in mind is that phrases and words are not used and understood in an abstract and rational way per se. Therefore, the notion that 'step up to the plate' would be irrelevant in the railway context because it is a 'footplate' and not a 'plate' or everyone had to step up to that 'plate', hence the analogy is illogical, etc. -- such a notion may be irrelevant. That is not how language works. There are plenty of reconstructed expressions and forms of spelling that have nothing to do with logic or actual linguistic origin (e.g.: Elephant and Castle, the district of London: there are various hypotheses regarding the origin of the name, one of them a corruption of the Spanish, although this is not proven and could be an old urban myth...).

Finally, the phrase in British English, today, does not seem rare to me: I hear it relatively frequently in conversation. No doubt it is American influence, hence the Google nGram curve clearly showing a huge rise in usage, in relative terms. (I am assuming, here, the nGram shows usage in the UK, but maybe that is not the case and it is showing overall usage in English-language sources, which is another thing that would need checking.)

When it comes to language usage, it is ultimately down to users of the language. Hence, their views do matter, I would have thought. The dictionary merely records what has been said or written. (Cf. the list of 'new words' that lexicographers publish every year.)


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## Andygc

Did you actually look at the ngram I linked to before you posted that? It uses the Google Books 2012 US and GB databases.

This thing about locomotive fooplates has no evidence base whatsoever and is no more than myth.

PS. It's a "footplate". No footplateman would call it a "plate" (panjandrum pointed that out earlier). Platelayers (BE only) deal with the track. A footplateman would see himself somewhat higher - in both physical position and status.


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## James Brandon

If you recalibrate the Google Ngram diagram to go up to now, it sets itself to the year 2012, apparently.

What is clear is that the phrase is used far more in the USA than in the UK. It seems to have started being used c.1940. Its usage shoots up c.1990, both in the USA and in the UK. Usage is far more common in the USA than in the UK, but the curve is headed roughly the same way in both countries. This would tend to confirm that the phrase is indeed primarily American and found in American English. (Intrinsically, it does not tell us where it came from, although I accept that it does sound like the origin is the game of baseball and not the railways in the age of steam.)

Other than that, I am not an expert on 'plates' or 'footplates' or 'footplatemen' or 'platelayers' [any more?] and what/ who they are, as some people appear to be.

I have reproduced the URL of the Ngram below.

Google Ngram Viewer


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## Andygc

Perhaps you need to see Google Ngram Viewer to understand what ngrams do.

The ngram didn't set itself to 2012; that was the database I specified. Ngrams cannot tell you when something was first used because they are derived from a books database, but they can give an indication of differences. The OED uses any form of written English, which is why its earliest citations are long before any hits in the ngram. The ngram linked from this thread is limited in usefulness by the date range. Try this one instead, which removes the effect of recent increases in the use of the phrase. As I said earlier in the thread, I never heard or saw this expression until well into my adult life. Note when it crept into BE books. There is no reason to assume the small bumps in the 1940s and 1970s are anything other than books about baseball, but there is no way of finding out.


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## James Brandon

Ok, regarding the Ngram. Basically, I believe we are agreed. What matters is _*the trend*_. And the trend shows increased use of the phrase in both AE and BE. And it looks like BE follows AE, and the phrase would come from  AE.That is what we know (or suppose). That is what it shows (or appears to be showing). No more, no less.


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