# Etymology: Убав/Ubav (beautiful)



## JoelBackman

In Macedonian, Убав / Ubav - beautiful.

It doesn't seem to have Slavic etymology. The Slavic version would be krasiv / красив.

What is the origin of this word?


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## Duya

The only sensible (and not particularly reliable) explanation I found after extensive googling (books included) is on this forum (search for "hubav", that's the Bulgarian cognate), is that it is of proto-Bulgarian origin (there's a link to some YouTube discussion). 

I said "sensible" because 1) it matches the geographic distribution of the word in Bulgarian, Macedonian and south Serbian/Torlak, 2) the other explanations were that it was Turkish (it most certainly isn't) and that it's a cognate of "ljubav" (doesn't sound plausible).


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## Emmanon82

I`ve found a version ( also for Bulgarian word  _хубав)_that it has Kurdian origin (hob=good).


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## Kriviq

Duya said:


> The only sensible (and not particularly reliable) explanation I found after extensive googling (books included) is on this forum (search for "hubav", that's the Bulgarian cognate), is that it is of proto-Bulgarian origin (there's a link to some YouTube discussion).
> 
> I said "sensible" because 1) it matches the geographic distribution of the word in Bulgarian, Macedonian and south Serbian/Torlak, 2) the other explanations were that it was Turkish (it most certainly isn't) and that it's a cognate of "ljubav" (doesn't sound plausible).



Хубав is a proto-Bulgarian word, originating from the Iranian (Pehlavi) root hub=beautiful. There is an old Bulgarian name Хуба, its contemporary form being Хубен.


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## Maroseika

JoelBackman said:


> In Macedonian, Убав / Ubav - beautiful.
> 
> It doesn't seem to have Slavic etymology. The Slavic version would be krasiv / красив.
> 
> What is the origin of this word?


It may derive from the old Slavic root бав- (Vasmer):
Rus. забава - amusement 
Bulg. бавiць, Ukr. бавити - to entertain
Serb. бавити се - to stay oo long
Pol. bawić, Slov. baviti se - to occupy onself, to stay.
Бавити < bhāvayáti - creates.
Therefore Macedonian word might have been formed as figurative.
What other words with this root are in Macedonian?
Are there also other words with Slavic "бав-" like убавить (to diminish), прибавить, добавить, надбавить (to add), разбавить (to dilute), забава (amusement)?


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## JoelBackman

It is possible.

Words like забава - amusement, fun; прибави - get, add; забави - slow down; бавен - slow; бави - occupy one self; do exist in Macedonian


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## Maroseika

JoelBackman said:


> It is possible.
> 
> Words like забава - amusement, fun; прибави - get, add; забави - slow down; бавен - slow; бави - occupy one self; do exist in Macedonian


And what does mean убави - if it exists, of course?
Or, if it doesn't, what would it mean on the Macedonian ear?


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## Whodunit

Maroseika said:


> And what does mean убави - if it exists, of course?
> Or, if it doesn't, what would it mean on the Macedonian ear?


 
According to common Slavic grammar, it should be the plural nominative of 'убав', which means _beautiful_, _fine _etc. You might want to check here.


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## Maroseika

Whodunit said:


> According to common Slavic grammar, it should be the plural nominative of 'убав', which means _beautiful_, _fine _etc. You might want to check here.


Thank you for the link. 
However I was wondering what verb infinitive might resemble this word to the Macedonian native, taking into account that бави means "to be late".


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## Duya

Maroseika said:


> It may derive from the old Slavic root бав- ?



No, that's entirely wrong track. The adjective _ubav_ is formed from the root _(h)ub_ and common adjectival suffix _-av_. You can't look for an adjective's root at its ending -- it would be paramount to say that _nizak_ has root _-zak _or _crven _has root _-ven._



Maroseika said:


> However I was wondering what verb infinitive might resemble this word to the Macedonian native, taking into account that бави means "to be late".



Macedonian doesn't have infinitive; however, Joel has already noted that reflexive form "се бави" means "to be occupied with", "to engage oneself".


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## JoelBackman

Yes. 

убави - beautiful (plural).

It doesn't seem likely to me that the root is -bav but rather (h)ub.

So far we had opinions that it's of proto-Bulgar or old Iranian or Kurdish origins.


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## Frank06

Hi,


JoelBackman said:


> Yes.
> убави - beautiful (plural).
> It doesn't seem likely to me that the root is -bav but rather (h)ub.
> So far we had opinions that it's of proto-Bulgar or old Iranian or Kurdish origins.


I am following the discussion with interest, but what exactly is meant by Proto-Bulgar, old Iranian and Kurdish in this context? And could anybody give some dates or a (relative) chronology?

Thanks,

Frank


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## Duya

From what I gathered on Wikipedia: 

Proto-Bulgarian was the extinct language of Bulgars, a nomadic tribe that (among other places) settled in present-day Bulgaria in late 7th century; their culture didn't leave too much traces within the Slavic population, but they left their name and a part of vocabulary as a heritage.

The origins and relationships of Proto-Bulgarian are not well known. The most common theory states that it's a branch of Turkic languages, and that the Chuvash language is its closest surviving relative, but there are numerous other (often fringe) theories, linking it to Iranians etc. (ZOMG I think every single nation has a number of fringe theories claiming to have an Iranian origin -- an aryanism complex?). 

Petar Dobrev, a Bulgarian hobby linguist, is an advocate of "Iranian" theory and has collected a bunch of _evidence _here, linking proto-Bulgarian to Pamir and Caucasian languages. I'd take the said evidence with a kilo grain of salt though, as e.g. the same page (U-Kh) where "Khubav" is detected in Pamirian languages states that Khrana (hrana, common Slavic word for food, possibly of PIE origin) comes from the same source.

As a conclusion, we should probably stop seeking for the origin of _hub _further; we would enter the murky waters of ancient history and numerous conflicting theories of doubtful scientific verifiability.


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## etymon

hubav is not of Turkish origin, it is not found in any Turkish dialects. There is an etymology by a Macedonian linguist that links it to the Phrygian goddess of beauty and great Mother, Kubaba, (the K is a problem, but possibly it was pronunced originally Khubaba. It is found in the area of the Balkan substratum.
There is also Ukrainian hupavyj (maybe also Russian) but the p is a problem. Maybe it is a blend.
An Iranian origin cannot explain its limited use in the Balkan Alliance dialects of Slavic.


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## Christo Tamarin

The word *хубав/убав/ubav/xubav* is just Slavo-Balkanic. It has nothing from Asia in its etymology (nothing Turkic, nothing Semitic, nothing Iranian).

The Slavic root *ЛЮБ/LIUB* (a cognate to the English *love*) has been borrowed by Romano-Balkanic, dropping the initial Л/L according to its rules.

Slavo-Balkanic then has borrowed the same root back from Romano-Balkanic in the form ЮБ/УБ/yub/ub. 

Then, the normal Slavic affix -ав/-av has been applied to get the word in question.

The initial X in Bulgarian is explained in this way: In Bulgarian, initial X is often added to loan-words. Examples: харесвам, хвърлям (Turkish firlamak), хамбар.

The Bulgarian poet Vazov has felt that word:



> Детенце хубаво,
> пиленце любаво!
> Къде под мишница
> с таз малка книжица?


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## Scholiast

Greetings



> Хубав  is a proto-Bulgarian word, originating from the Iranian (Pehlavi) root  hub=beautiful. There is an old Bulgarian name Хуба, its contemporary  form being Хубен.				 	http://forum.wordreference.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3001915



This will probably be related in PIE to German _hübsch_ - for which I find in Grimm no further guidance.


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## Christo Tamarin

Scholiast said:


> This will probably be related in PIE to German _hübsch_ - for which I find in Grimm no further guidance.



The Bugarian and the German words are actually not related. 

The German word is a calque of the French *courtois* (Fr. court = Ger. *Hof*). Perhaps, High German borrowed that word from Low German.


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## Scholiast

Greetings

I acknowledge most cheerfully that my supposition about Хубав and a putative relation with German hübsch may be wrong.

But


> The German word [hübsch] is a calque of the French *courtois* (Fr. court = Ger. *Hof*). Perhaps, High German borrowed that word from Low German.



This, with all respect, I very much doubt:

http://www.archive.org/stream/etymologicaldict00kluguoft#page/150/mode/2up


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## Istriano

*ubav *(*lovely *in Macedonian) sounds like *ljubak *(*lovely *in BSC)

 ubavo devojče = ljupka djevojka 
lovely girl

_Lovely _is a Germanic English word for French-introduced _beautiful_.
According to OED, *lovely *(in the sense of _beautiful_) entered the English language in 1230, 300 years before the word _beautiful _was attested. 
For 200 years, the main adjective describing beautifulness (the word _beauty _appeared in 1325) was _lovely_.  _Pretty _(a Germanic word, cognate of Dutch *prachtig*) used in the sense of _good-looking_ appeared around 1440.
(_Good-looking_ is recent (1780)).


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## Christo Tamarin

Scholiast said:


> Greetings
> 
> I acknowledge most cheerfully that my supposition about Хубав and a putative relation with German hübsch may be wrong.
> 
> But
> 
> 
> 
> Christo Tamarin said:
> 
> 
> 
> The German word is a calque of the French *courtois* (Fr. court = Ger. *Hof*). Perhaps, High German borrowed that word from Low German.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This, with all respect, I very much doubt:
> 
> http://www.archive.org/stream/etymologicaldict00kluguoft#page/150/mode/2up
Click to expand...


Sorry, my mistake. Low German was not involved.

About the etymology of German hübsch (discussion in Russian, qoutes in German)



Istriano said:


> ubav (lovely in Macedonian) sounds like ljubak (lovely in BSC)
> 
> ubavo devojče = ljupka djevojka
> lovely girl


Yes, *ХУБАВ/ЮБАВ/УБАВ* means *lovely*. And that is the etymology of that Slavo-Balkanic word.


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