# Urdu: When do you add ki and ka in a sentence?



## Darraptor

I'm pretty sure when you add ki or ka to a word like ap it makes it mean yours. However in the sentence jab mujhe mera dost ki zaroorat hai tum to ti ni i dont know how ki is being used there(the sentence i think means when I needed my friend the most you werent) Can someone explain to me and also provide some examples illustrating so I can understand better?


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## Alfaaz

کا/کی/کے are referred to as حرف اضافت. Your Urdu and English sentences are unfortunately not completely comprehensible due to the transliteration, but _dost kii zaruurat_ would mean _need of friend_.

Relevant entry in Platts:


> H کا का _kā_ [Prk. किअउं; S. कृतं, perf. part. neut. of कृ 'to do,' &c.], postpn. m. (f. _kī_; obl. & pl. _ke_), Of; belonging to; concerning; made of, consisting of, &c. (_kā_ is the postpn. of the gen. case in Urdū and Hindī, and, as such, is also frequently used as an adj. termination, e.g. _sone-kī ghaṛī_, 'a gold watch'; _kāṭh-kā ghoṛā_, 'a wooden horse'; in the case of the pronouns of the first and second persons, _kā_ takes the form _rā_; and in some dialects of Hindī _rā_ is the gen. postpn. of nouns as well as pronouns; while in others _lā_ is found in place of _kā_ and _rā_; cf. also _kar_, _karā_, _ker_, and _kerā_, which are rustic forms of _kā_).



Examples: 

_kitaab kii qiimat - price of book_

_kii_ is used because _qiimat_ is a feminine word.
_kitaab kaa naam - name of book_

_kaa_ is used as _naam_ is a masculine word.
_kitaab ke muSannifiin - authors of book_

_ke_ is used since _muSannifiin_ is masculine plural.


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## Darraptor

Thank you I did not realize they were used for the genitive case for of. Is kitaab the subject?


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## Sheikh_14

Yes.


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## Darraptor

dumb question but why is it dost ki zarurrat as opposed to zaruurat dost ki or zaruurat ki dost? I thought zaruurat was the subject and therefore go first?


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## Sheikh_14

Dost kii zaroorat= a friend's need.
Zaroorat kaa/kii dost= A person who becomes a friend only when he/she needs you.
Zaroorat meN dost/ zaroorat ke waqt dost/ zaroorat paRne par dost = a friend during a time of need I.e. A friend indeed.


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## Darraptor

So how would you say "because of you" in urdu? I was thinking qumke apka but wouldnt that translate to because your?


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## Sheikh_14

Aap kii wajah se..


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## Darraptor

Sheikh_14 said:


> Aap kii wajah se..


Can you explain each part of that sentence because I dont see how it means Because of you?


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## Sheikh_14

wajah= reason aap kii= yours. If you translate the phrase verbatim it would come to mean "your reason" which essentially to us means you are the reason. There is a song being played ad nauseum by the name of "wajah tum ho," I.e. You are the reason I live and breathe. I guess you could also "baa-wajah aap kii" Or "baa-wajah e shomaa" (shomaa is a persian derived term which means you/your but barely used in common speech I assume it is reserved for high register Urdu and poetry) which would again mean by reason of you which in English would not really flow well.


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## Dib

Urdu "A kaa/kii/ke B" means "B of A" or "A's B" in English. The choice of kaa/kii/ke is determined by the gender, number and case of B.

So, "dost kii zaruurat" = "necessity of (a) friend", or more idiomatically in English "need for a friend".


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## Darraptor

Dib said:


> Urdu "A kaa/kii/ke B" means "B of A" or "A's B" in English. The choice of kaa/kii/ke is determined by the gender, number and case of B.
> 
> So, "dost kii zaruurat" = "necessity of (a) friend", or more idiomatically in English "need for a friend".



How about I need to live only for you? I was thinking mujhe apki rahtey only zarrorat hai. This sentence i choose because the object has for instead of 'of' so I wasnt 100 percent sure on translating this


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## Dib

Darraptor said:


> How about I need to live only for you?



Let's divide the problem in order to tackle it more easily:

A) to live only for you = bas aap ke liye hii jiinaa / bas aap hii ke liye jiinaa [I think, there is a difference in register between these two options. Some more qualified comment on that point will be heartily welcome!!]
B) I need X = mujhe X kii zaruurat hai

Now, substituting (A) in place of X in (B), you get:

I need to live only for you = mujhe bas aap ke liye hii jiin*e* kii zaruurat hai.


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## Darraptor

Dib said:


> Let's divide the problem in order to tackle it more easily:
> 
> A) to live only for you = bas aap ke liye hii jiinaa / bas aap hii ke liye jiinaa [I think, there is a difference in register between these two options. Some more qualified comment on that point will be heartily welcome!!]
> B) I need X = mujhe X kii zaruurat hai
> 
> Now, substituting (A) in place of X in (B), you get:
> 
> I need to live only for you = mujhe bas aap ke liye hii jiin*e* kii zaruurat hai.



So then would I say I need to meet you: mujhe apse mil karne ki zaroorat hai?
I wasn't entirely too sure how to use karne in this example. My thought process was Mujhe is the 'i need' and apse mil is meeting you but then I got a little confused what comes in between that and ki


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## Dib

Darraptor said:


> So then would I say I need to meet you: mujhe apse *mil karne* ki zaroorat hai?



That was a very good attempt, Darraptor. You have made only a tiny mistake. The word for "to meet" is not "mil karnaa", but simply "milnaa". Therefore, "I need to meet you = mujhe aap se *milne* kii zaruurat hai."



> My thought process was Mujhe is the 'i need' and ...



As explained in your other thread, that is wrong. mujhe = mujh ko = (to) me. Some relevant snippets from that thread:


Dib said:


> Darraptor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing is how would translate mujhe vs mujhko because I get those mixed up alot
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, that's easy. There is no difference between the two. They are perfectly interchangeable.
Click to expand...




Dib said:


> -ko in Urdu is the "object" marker, and "object" in this sense includes both direct and indirect objects of the verb. It is obligatory for indirect objects. It is also obligatory for direct objects when it is a specific human being. It tends to be omitted when the direct object is inanimate or nonspecific, but there lies a grey zone in-between, where -ko can be either added to the object or dropped, but often with some difference in nuance.





Dib said:


> in the sentence "mujh-ko urduu "practice" karne kii zaruurat hai", the subject is "zaruurat" (necessity). You see, the verb (hai) is in 3rd pers. sing. unlike "mujh-ko" which is 1st pers. sing. Similarly, if you put it into past tense, it would be "mujh-ko ... zaruurat thii" with the verb (thii) agreeing with zaruurat in number and gender (fem. sing.), irrespective of whether the speaker (and hence "mujh-ko") is masculine or feminine. All this clearly shows that "zaruurat" is the subject.
> 
> So, literally speaking, the Urdu sentence is something like: "There is necessity to/for me to practise Urdu." In essence, you have to learn the whole structure as it is: "A ko B kii zaruurat honaa" means "A needs B", and be aware that the Urdu and English structures in this case are quite different.






> apse mil is meeting you but then I got a little confused what comes in between that and ki



That's okay when you are learning a new language.


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## Darraptor

Dib said:


> That was a very good attempt, Darraptor. You have made only a tiny mistake. The word for "to meet" is not "mil karnaa", but simply "milnaa". Therefore, "I need to meet you = mujhe aap se *milne* kii zaruurat hai."
> 
> 
> 
> As explained in your other thread, that is wrong. mujhe = mujh ko = (to) me. Some relevant snippets from that thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's okay when you are learning a new language.



Why is it milne instead of milnaa?


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## Dib

Darraptor said:


> Why is it milne instead of milnaa?



Because
1) milnaa is a verbal noun
2) verbal nouns behave as common masculine nouns
3) in front of postpositions all nouns apear in the "oblique" form
4) milne is the singular oblique form of milnaa, just as with other declinable masculine nouns in -aa (laRkaa > laRke)


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