# commute between / to and (back) from



## meijin

Hi, I've just made up the following sentence.

_I usually listen to music while I *commute to* school._

This sounds like the speaker only listens to music on the way to school, not also on the way back. So I edit the sentence as follows...

_1. I usually listen to music while I *commute between *home *and *school._
_2. I usually listen to music while I *commute to *and *from *school._
_3. I usually listen to music while I *commute to *and *back from *school._

#1 is probably correct, but it sounds a little odd to me since people almost always commute from home (i.e. mentioning "home" seems unnecessary).
#2 is probably wrong, because, unlike the verb "travel", you can't _commute from school to home._
#3 sounds a little awkward to me. 

Which expression do you use, if you are talking to someone who doesn't know if you are a student or a working adult?


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## PaulQ

meijin said:


> #3 sounds a little awkward to me.


It is - it is not idiomatic.


meijin said:


> Which expression do you use,


Neither. _I usually listen to music while I *commute *_- usually, people will know where you go and where you start from. Unless otherwise stated, to commute = to journey between your residence and your usual place of work.


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## jmichaelm

When I talk about commuting to work without referring the the commute home the context sometimes implies both directions,  "The commute to work in NYC can be tedious." and sometimes only one, "The commute to work was terrible today."


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## meijin

PaulQ said:


> Neither. _I usually listen to music while I *commute *_- usually, people will know where you go


Thanks Paul. Yes, but that's why I mentioned the following. 


meijin said:


> if you are talking to someone who doesn't know if you are a student or a working adult?







jmichaelm said:


> When I talk about commuting to work without referring the the commute home the context sometimes implies both directions, "The commute to work in NYC can be tedious."


Thanks jmichaelm. I was actually hoping to hear that. So, the original version (_"I usually listen to music while I commute to school"_) implies that the speaker listens to music while traveling to _and _from school especially because it's unlikely for someone to listen to music just on one way?


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## jmichaelm

meijin said:


> So, the original version (_"I usually listen to music while I commute to school"_) implies that the speaker listens to music while traveling to _and _from school especially because it's unlikely for someone to listen to music just on one way?



Unlikely but not impossible. Even in my example I might find the commute to work tedious and the commute home enjoyable because I look forward to one and not the other. However the sentence in isolation definitely implies that I find commuting both directions to be tedious.

If you are willing to depend on assumptions then the original sentence is fine. Most people will assume you also listen to music going home. But if you want to be explicit so that no one can make the wrong assumption you need to change the sentence.


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## Packard

_I usually listen to a book recording during my daily commute.  
_
This includes both directions and any method of travel.


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## meijin

jmichaelm said:


> and the commute home


Oh....is "commute home" correct English? If so, I suppose "commute home from school" (meaning returning home from school) is also correct, which makes sentence #2 in the original post also correct, doesn't it? 




PaulQ said:


> Neither. _I usually listen to music while I *commute.*_





Packard said:


> I usually listen to a book recording during my daily commute.


You both dropped where you commute to (and where you commute home from). I suppose that's because A) if you try to add "school" or "work" to the sentence and also make clear that you do the listening on both ways, the sentence will be awkward, or B) nobody is interested in knowing whether you commute to school or whether you commute to work. B is actually convenient, because, in Japanese the Chinese character that means "commute" is always combined with the character that means "school" or "work", so you have to bother to ask "Are you a student or a working adult?" before asking, for example, "What do you usually do during your daily commute?"


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## JulianStuart

Packard said:


> _I usually listen to a book recording during my daily commute.
> _
> This includes both directions and any method of travel.



In English, the word commute has no information content on where to/from.  If that information is needed, it must be asked in a separate question.


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## dojibear

If you use "to" or "from", your sentences talks about one direction (half of your total daily commute). I don't commute "to work" in the afternoon. 

If you say you "commute to school", you may be a student there or you may be a teacher there.



meijin said:


> So, the original version (_"I usually listen to music while I commute to school"_) implies that the speaker listens to music while traveling to _and _from school especially because it's unlikely for someone to listen to music just on one way?



No. There is a difference between "what the sentence says" and "what I deduce from the situation". The original version says "to school" so it only means your morning commute. "It's unlikely" is an assumption some readers will make, while other readers won't. I won't: I can think of a dozen reasons why a person wouldn't listen to music on both commutes.

That's why you have suggestions above like "I listen to music while commuting" without "to" or "from". Commuting happens twice each day.


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## meijin

Thank you both very much.



dojibear said:


> If you say you "commute to school", you may be a student there or you may be a teacher there.


That's interesting. If you were a young teacher (in his 20s), which of the following would you say to someone who you have just met: "I commute to school by bus" or "I commute to work by bus"?


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## meijin

To all: Let me clarify my point by quoting the following from the two WR Random House dictionaries:














As you can see, in both dictionaries, the explanation says "and back" to mean that commuting isn't just one-directional. Yet the example sentences both mention just one direction, I think. So, to reflect the "and back" part in the example sentences, how would you change the sentences?


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## JulianStuart

meijin said:


> Thank you both very much.
> 
> 
> That's interesting. If you were a young teacher (in his 20s), which of the following would you say to someone who you have just met: "I commute to school by bus" or "I commute to work by bus"?


I commute by bus.


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## meijin

So, all the answers in this thread suggest that in English you will only make the sentence unnecessarily long or awkward if you try to mention the place you commute to and commute home from AND try to explicitly talk about both directions. In other words, sentences #1 and #2 in the original post are correct and idiomatic, but you wouldn't say these sentences because they are unnecessarily long and there's no point mentioning where you commute to and commute home from.


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## dojibear

meijin said:


> So, all the answers in this thread suggest that in English you will only make the sentence unnecessarily long or awkward if you try to mention the place you commute to and commute home from AND try to explicitly talk about both directions. In other words, sentences #1 and #2 in the original post are correct and idiomatic, but you wouldn't say these sentences because they are unnecessarily long and there's no point mentioning where you commute to and commute home from.



Did any native English speaker say that mentioning destination makes the sentence "unnecessarily long or awkward"? No.

Did any native English speaker say that sentences #1 and #2 are "unnecessarily long"? No. 

In this thread you kept attempting to find shorter sentences that you could "get away with using" that "meant the same thing". 

At 12 words and 17-18 syllables, sentences #1 and #2 are "short sentences" in English. But apparently they seem "too long" to you.


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## meijin

I don't know. It's just that nobody said #1 and #2 are absolutely fine and there's no need to worry about the redundancy (mention of "home" in #1) or the oddity ("commuting from school" in #2). Also, the second example sentence by the dictionary in post #11 ("He commutes to work by train") definitely seemed to be saying that adding "from" would be unnecessary.


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## meijin

To be more precise, Paul, Packard and Julian all dropped the "school" (or "work") part, which I wanted to remain in the sentence.


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## dojibear

Yes, PaulQ said sentence 3 was not idiomatic, and failed to mention that 1 and 2 were correct and idiomatic. But you never asked that. Instead you asked "which expression do you use", and PaulQ uses none of these (for reasons he explains).



meijin said:


> the second example sentence by the dictionary in post #11 ("He commutes to work by train") definitely seemed to be saying that adding "from" would be unnecessary.



The dictionary examples in #11 are talking about how far she commutes, and how (what vehicle) he commutes. Technically they are ambiguous sentences, but a dictionary is not a "guide to correct use". Still, anyone who commutes into the city each morning *has to* return home each night, so the round trip is strongly implied in those sentences.

Your sentence talks about an activity you do (listening to music) while commuting. You don't *have to* do that in both directions, so it is only weakly implied. 



meijin said:


> To be more precise, Paul, Packard and Julian all dropped the "school" (or "work") part, which I wanted to remain in the sentence.



You start the thread's discussion at the start of #1 by saying "commute to" means only one direction, not both ways. That is correct. Paul, Packard and Julian all showed you that "commute" can mean "both ways" if you avoid using the words "to" and "from". That is useful information. 

They doesn't mean is is bad grammar or style to include to/from information. That is a meaning you got from their comments, but I don't think it is something they meant to imply. Many AE speakers avoid using ambiguous sentences.


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## dojibear

meijin said:


> Which expression do you use, if you are talking to someone who doesn't know if you are a student or a working adult?





meijin said:


> If you were a young teacher (in his 20s), which of the following would you say to someone who you have just met: "I commute to school by bus" or "I commute to work by bus"?



You describe a situation, but you don't tell me what I want to *say* in that situation. Do I want to tell the person that I am a teacher? Do I want to avoid telling them I am a teacher? Do I want to tell them that the place I commute to is a school? Do I want to avoid telling them that?

I know how to say all those things. But I have no idea which ones you want to say.


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## meijin

Sorry if my question wasn't clear. What I wanted to know was how you would say, in correct/idiomatic English, what the three example sentences in the original post said. I _really_ didn't know that #1 and #2 were both fine, because nobody disagreed with my perceptions below.


meijin said:


> #1 is probably correct, but it sounds a little odd to me since people almost always commute from home (i.e. mentioning "home" seems unnecessary).
> #2 is probably wrong, because, unlike the verb "travel", you can't _commute from school to home._




The only thing I'm interested in knowing now is which of #1 and #2 you would use, IF you prefer one to the other.


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## dojibear

_#1. I usually listen to music while I commute between home and school.
#2. I usually listen to music while I commute to and from school.
_
I could use either comfortably, but I prefer #2. I like "to and from", and I agree that "home" is not necessary.

(Note: It's 4 am to 7 am in the US, so it may be a few hours before other people reply)


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## sound shift

When I was at school, I never heard the word "commute" used for the journey to or from school. "Commute" was associated with the workplace. Have things changed?


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## meijin

dojibear said:


> I could use either comfortably, but I prefer #2. I like "to and from", and I agree that "home" is not necessary.


That's really good to hear.



sound shift said:


> When I was at school, I never heard the word "commute" used for the journey to or from school. "Commute" was associated with the workplace. Have things changed?


I think so. The two English-English dictionaries I have (ODE and Collins) both say that commuting is travelling between one's home and place of work, but no one in this thread (including BE speakers) found my use of "commute" with "to school" odd.


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## JulianStuart

meijin said:


> That's really good to hear.
> 
> 
> I think so. The two English-English dictionaries I have (ODE and Collins) both say that commuting is travelling between one's home and place of work, but no one in this thread (including BE speakers) found my use of "commute" with "to school" odd.


For a pupil/stuent I would not expect to hear them saying they commute to school, while I would expect it from a teacher.  So, for me too, commute applies to a place of work.


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## meijin

Oh...so, you (at least BE and ex-BE speakers) thought that the three sentences in the original post were spoken by a teacher! That's good to remember, and I might have to start a new thread...



dojibear said:


> If you say you "commute to school", you may be a student there or you may be a teacher there.


This comment (as well as the explanations in the Random House American English dictionaries quoted earlier) suggests that students in the US do say "I commute to school".


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## meijin

PaulQ said:


> Neither. _I usually listen to music while I *commute *_- usually, people will know where you go and where you start from. Unless otherwise stated, to commute = to journey between your residence and your usual place of work.


It's all my fault to miss the "place of work" part of this sentence. If I had read it carefully and realized that students in the UK don't say "commute to school", this thread would have progressed more smoothly...


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## meijin

So, these are BE versions I've just come up with:

_4. I usually listen to music while I *travel between *home *and *school.
5. I usually listen to music while I *travel to *and* (back) from* school.
6. I usually listen to music while I *go to / attend *and *(return) from* school.
7. I usually listen to music *on the way to* and *(back) from* school._

(To me, the verbs "go" and "attend" in #6 seem inappropriate.)

Which of these sentences says or suggests that the speaker is a pupil/student of the school? If none, can you come up with a sentence that does that?


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## jmichaelm

meijin said:


> As you can see, in both dictionaries, the explanation says "and back" to mean that commuting isn't just one-directional. Yet the example sentences both mention just one direction, I think.



This is why I mentioned that some sentences imply both directions. No one will think you commute to work and never commute home again. So if your sentence talks about a presumed invariant such as distance it is reasonable to assume it applies in both directions.

"I have a long commute to work." means everyone will assume you have a long commute home.  You don't need to explicitly say "to work and home" in this case. Note that it's not impossible for you to have a long commute to work and a short commute home: "I have a long commute to work because I drop the kids off to three different schools every morning. The commute home is much shorter."  Despite this possibility, everyone will assume when you say "I have a long commute to work." that you also have a long commute home.

There are times when it's reasonable to rely on the usual assumptions.


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## jmichaelm

JulianStuart said:


> For a pupil/stuent I would not expect to hear them saying they commute to school...


I hear the term commute applied to students frequently. I live in a city with a university that has a large percentage of "commuter students".


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## JulianStuart

The wonderful variety of English from different countries 

Perhaps the distinction is the age of the traveller? (University students vs pupils BE/students AE before university) Do kids in the US who ride on the school bus to school and back use the term commute?


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## meijin

jmichaelm said:


> This is why I mentioned ...


Yes, jmichaelm, you're right. My example sentences in the original post and the example sentence by the Random House dictionary are different. The latter sentence really doesn't need to mention both directions, as pointed out by dojibear as well earlier. My example sentences, on the other hand, should probably mention both directions if the speaker wants to mean it. By the way, what intrigued me in your post #27 is this:



jmichaelm said:


> "to work and home"



This suggests that not only my sentences #1 and #2 but also the following version works:

_2b. I usually listen to music while I *commute to* school *and *home._

But, once again, the "home" seems unnecessary (since one of the two places you commute between is always home), I'd say sentence #2 in the original post is still the best.


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## jmichaelm

JulianStuart said:


> Do kids in the US who ride on the school bus to school and back use the term commute?


No, not that I have ever heard.


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## meijin

And Julian's last post tells me that there's another version...

_2c. I usually listen to music while I *commute to *school *and *back._

I like this version.


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## JulianStuart

meijin said:


> And Julian's last post tells me that there's another version...
> 
> _2c. I usually listen to music while I *commute to *school *and *back._
> 
> I like this version.


I used "to school and back" in a paraphrase of the single word "commute".  The addition of the place (as supplemental information to inform the listener who does not yet know your destination) requires a preposition or two but that does not change the intrinsic meaning of "commute = there AND back"


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## meijin

So I should probably only mention the return home part when talking about something that's unlikely to do on the way back, i.e. _"I read a morning paper while commuting to school and back."_


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## JulianStuart

I'm not clear what you mean. Do you read the _morning_ paper on the evening commute?
Perhaps: I read the morning paper on my morning commute but I do work-related e-mail on my way home.


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## dojibear

sound shift said:


> When I was at school, I never heard the word "commute" used for the journey to or from school. "Commute" was associated with the workplace. Have things changed?



Same here. When I hear "commute" I assume "workplace", and don't think of "school". But see my comments below.



jmichaelm said:


> I hear the term commute applied to students frequently. I live in a city with a university that has a large percentage of "commuter students".



In my usage, a student who takes a school bus to school, or walks, bicycles or is driven by parents is not commuting.

But "commute" makes sense for a university student old enough to drive, who lives some distance away and drive a car to their "full time job" of being a student at the university. "Commute" is also reasonable to describe a student who uses public trains and busses to get to school, even if they are younger.

Note that I would not use the term "commute" for someone who gets to work in less than 15 minutes. Only a longer drive (or bus or subway ride) fits the word "commute".



meijin said:


> no one in this thread (including BE speakers) found my use of "commute" with "to school" odd.



Despite your excellent use of English, there are some "odd" things I could have commented about in post #1. But a thread with several different topics, and several people commenting, gets hopelessly long and confusing quickly. So I didn't. Also, one of the forum rules is "we do not proofread". Also, another rule is "we discuss only one topic in each thread". To me this thread is about whether "commute" can mean both morning and evening commute (both directions).

In other words, please do not take ANY meaning from people "not commenting about" any text that you write.


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## jmichaelm

meijin said:


> So I should probably only mention the return home part when talking about something that's unlikely to do on the way back



You should mention both any time you want to be precise. I would probably say "commute to work" speaking casually even when I might mean to include the commute home. I would probably write "commute to and from work" if I thought many people were going to read what I wrote and think about it carefully.


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## london calling

sound shift said:


> When I was at school, I never heard the word "commute" used for the journey to or from school. "Commute" was associated with the workplace. Have things changed?


I was just about to say the exact same thing. I would never say I commute to school, unless by 'school' I meant my place of work.


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## meijin

JulianStuart said:


> Do you read the _morning_ paper on the evening commute?


Yes, both on the morning commute and the evening commute.



jmichaelm said:


> You should mention both any time you want to be precise. I would probably say "commute to work" speaking casually even when I might mean to include the commute home. I would probably write "commute to and from work" if I thought many people were going to read what I wrote and think about it carefully.


You're right. My comment wasn't quite right.



dojibear said:


> But "commute" makes sense for a university student old enough to drive, who lives some distance away and drive a car to their "full time job" of being a student at the university. "Commute" is also reasonable to describe a student who uses public trains and busses to get to school, even if they are younger.


I think you're right, in AmE, and that's why the WR Random House Unabridged Dictionary of American English I quoted earlier (and below) doesn't limit the word's meaning to traveling regularly between one's home and "place of work". If, just like in BE, it was only about one's place of work, then the example sentence "He commutes to work by train" would be a little odd, because "commutes" and "to work" are redundant.









dojibear said:


> Also, one of the forum rules is "we do not proofread". Also, another rule is "we discuss only one topic in each thread". To me this thread is about whether "commute" can mean both morning and evening commute (both directions).
> 
> In other words, please do not take ANY meaning from people "not commenting about" any text that you write.


You misunderstood my comment, dojibear. I was only talking about the "commute + to school" part, not the whole sentence. Also, as I realized in post #24, "commute + to school" is not odd at all IF you think the speaker is someone who works at a school, which at least BE speakers in this thread did. In other words, if the three example sentences in the original post were all preceded by _"I'm a student, and"_, BE speakers would definitely have pointed out that pupils/students in the UK don't say "commute + to school" despite the topic of the thread being about whether "commute" can mean both directions.


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## Cagey

The side conversation on what we call people who attend school has been moved to: pupil or student

Cagey, 
moderator


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## meijin

Below is a conversation between a father, daughter, and a salesperson at a bike shop in a BBC audio drama called The Man With The Hammer (only 1 day left to download from BBC Radio 4 - Drama of the Week)

_Father: It's not for me. It's for this one. She needs a bike for gonna *college *and back.
Salesman: Oh, OK....and were you thinking at...mountain bike, road bike?
Daughter: Um, I don't know, really.
Salesman: Well, if it's mostly for *commuting*, you could try... _

Cycling to school (to study, not to teach) and back shouldn't be "commuting", should it?


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## Cagey

meijin said:


> Cycling to school (to study, not to teach) and back shouldn't be "commuting", should it?


Some people above have said that 'commuting' is possible for college or university students, but unlikely for younger students.  I agree with them.  

*A side note*: We don't use '_gonna_' for 'going to', when 'going' refers to travel.  This should be: "_She needs a bike for going to *college *and back._
See: 'gonna' for 'going to'  [not part 'be going to' verb form]


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## meijin

Cagey said:


> Some people above have said that 'commuting' is possible for college or university students, but unlikely for younger students. I agree with them.


Maybe I was influenced by dojibear's comment below:


dojibear said:


> In my usage, a student who takes a school bus to school, or walks, bicycles or is driven by parents is not commuting.


This is why I found "commuting" inappropriate for cycling to and from school. But the daughter in the drama is a college student. So "commuting" is probably OK.




Cagey said:


> *A side note*: We don't use '_gonna_' for 'going to', when 'going' refers to travel. This should be: "_She needs a bike for going to *college *and back._


I'm glad to hear that, because I found it really odd when the father said "gonna" in that part. He really says "gonna". You can check it yourself, if interested.


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## meijin

I've just re-read the thread, and the following posts suggest that only university (or older) students, or college (or younger) students who travel by public transport, seem to (be able to) use "commute (to school/college/university)". The daughter in the drama is a college student and she's beginning to cycle to college and back. Yet the salesman in the bike shop used the word "commuting". Maybe the meaning of the word is expanding... [Edit: You can probably forget about this post. I've just remembered that college students are as old as university students...]



JulianStuart said:


> Perhaps the distinction is the age of the traveller? (University students vs pupils BE/students AE before university) Do kids in the US who ride on the school bus to school and back use the term commute?





jmichaelm said:


> No, not that I have ever heard.






dojibear said:


> But "commute" makes sense for a university student old enough to drive, who lives some distance away and drive a car to their "full time job" of being a student at the university. "Commute" is also reasonable to describe a student who uses public trains and busses to get to school, even if they are younger.


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## jmichaelm

meijin said:


> I'm glad to hear that, because I found it really odd when the father said "gonna" in that part. He really says "gonna". You can check it yourself, if interested.



Were you listening to spoken English? This could be a subtle sound difference you didn't notice. 

I often hear "gonna" for "going to" meaning "planning to" or "intending to". 

I sometimes hear "goinna" (like three syllables contracted together: go-in-na) as a sloppy way of saying "going to" referring to traveling. "I'm goinna Starbucks; wanna come?"


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## meijin

jmichaelm said:


> Were you listening to spoken English? This could be a subtle sound difference you didn't notice.





jmichaelm said:


> I sometimes hear "goinna" (like three syllables contracted together: go-in-na) as a sloppy way of saying "going to" referring to traveling. "I'm goinna Starbucks; wanna come?"


I listened to the audio once again, but since the word is spoken so quickly I couldn't tell if it's "goinna" (which I've never seen before) or "gonna". Then I listened to it again looking at the word "goinna" which I had typed on my computer screen believing it would have some effect on my ears, but it still sounded "gonna" to my ears.


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## Joika

Hello everyone, 

Is "travel between home and school" an acceptable paraphrase for "commute" in the case of students?

Thank you!!


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## Packard

It sounds fine to me.  

If you are at your home at the time, then “I travel to and from school.” is OK too.


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