# Saracen



## mojobadshah

The word Saracen is related to the words Sharq "east" and Ishraq "light."  Was the word Saracen a Persian or Arabic designation?  Given that  arab "west" is from Arabic I would assume that east is too.


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## Maroseika

It came from Arab šаrk (east, sunrise) thru Greek σαρακηνός.


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## origumi

Maroseika said:


> It came from Arab šаrk (east, sunrise) thru Greek σαρακηνός.


OED: _The ultimate etymology is uncertain. The derivations from Arabic  commonly given (of which the most usual is Arab. sharq eastern,  oriental, f. sharq sunrise) are not well founded._


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## إسكندراني

Maroseika said:


> It came from Arab šаrk (east, sunrise) thru Greek σαρακηνός.


Is this a commonly used greek word? Was it used by the byzantines for example?


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## Maroseika

origumi said:


> OED: _The ultimate etymology is uncertain. The derivations from Arabic  commonly given (of which the most usual is Arab. sharq eastern,  oriental, f. sharq sunrise) are not well founded._



So my dictionary has outdated, thank you for correction.


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## ireney

إسكندراني said:


> Is this a commonly used greek word? Was it used by the byzantines for example?



Indeed they did. John of Damascenous offers a ridiculous etymology for their name too: They are Σάρρας κενοί (devoid or destitute of Sarah)


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## apmoy70

ireney said:


> Indeed they did. John of Damascenous offers a ridiculous etymology for their name too: They are Σάρρας κενοί (devoid or destitute of Sarah)


 Unfortunately Byzantine Greeks (and Greek speakers in the Byzantine Empire in general) were notorious for their pseudoetymological/paretymological attempts to find the origins of words, based on folk etymology (a trend originating from Aristotle, a notorious- or should I say infamous?- paretymologist).
John Damascene, despite being a great Syrian Christian theologian of the mid. 8th c. AD who had an exquisite command of the Greek language, did not fall off the trend bandwagon.
For the Byzantines, *«Σαρακηνός»* (masc. sing), *«Σαρακηνοὶ»* (masc. pl) were chiefly, the Muslims of the Emirate of Sicily who operated from South Italy and Sicily, and later, in the 13th-14th c. AD the Barbary pirates.
The Arabs in general for the Byzantines, were *«Ἀγαρηνοὶ»* (masc. pl) <  Hagar


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## sotos

It seems that there isn't any acceptable etymology, or even an attempted one. In Greek historiography and oral tradition "Sarakenoi" are pirates and notorious sea-men. I wonder if an etymology from the greco-latin "_sal-_" (Gr. αλς) meaning "sea" could stand a discussion. The suffix -enos/-enoi in Gr. means "coming from ...". The sound "k" in the middle is a bit problematic.


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## fdb

origumi said:


> OED: _The ultimate etymology is uncertain. The derivations from Arabic  commonly given (of which the most usual is Arab. sharq eastern,  oriental, f. sharq sunrise) are not well founded._



_šarq_ is a noun (“East, Orient, sunrise”), not an adjective (“eastern, oriental”). It seems still the most likely etymology for Sarakēnoi.


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## Wolverine9

fdb said:


> _šarq_ is a noun (“East, Orient, sunrise”), not an adjective (“eastern, oriental”). It seems still the most likely etymology for Sarakēnoi.



I believe Saracens have been attested in the Levant and nearby regions since Roman times.  At that time, they probably spoke Aramaic rather than Arabic.  Don't you think Saracen is likely just the Greek pronunciation of the ethnic group's self designation?  If so, why would the group have referred to itself as "East"?


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## WadiH

Wolverine9 said:


> I believe Saracens have been attested in the Levant and nearby regions since Roman times.  At that time, they probably spoke Aramaic rather than Arabic.



Why?  Most North Arabian inscriptions in the Levant date from those times anyway.


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## mojobadshah

Does _sharq_ mean "east" in Arabic too?


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## rayloom

mojobadshah said:


> Does _sharq_ mean "east" in Arabic too?



Yes it does.


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## إسكندراني

fdb said:


> _šarq_ is a noun (“East, Orient, sunrise”), not an adjective (“eastern, oriental”). It seems still the most likely etymology for Sarakēnoi.


But شرقي is...


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## relativamente

The Dictionary  of the Spanish Real Academia gives this etymology for "sarraceno"
Del lat. Sarracēni, y este del arameo rabínico sarq[iy]īn, habitantes del desierto, der. de srāq, desierto


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## origumi

relativamente said:


> Del lat. Sarracēni, y este del arameo rabínico sarq[iy]īn, habitantes del desierto, der. de srāq, desierto


This is based for example on the translation of Genesis 37:25 (the story of Joseph) to Aramaic. The Hebrew origin אֹרְחַת יִשְׁמְעֵאלִים = "a caravan of Ishmaelites" is translated usually to Aramaic סִיעָא דַעֲרָבָאִין (Targum Yonatan) or שְׁיָרַת עַרְבָּאֵי (Onqelos), so Ishmaelites = Arabs. But there are scripts of Yonatan where the translation is סיען דסירקאין, so Ishmaelites = sirqain (sir-qa-in, plural of sirqa). Variations like sarqiin/sriqiin apparently existed too. Aramaic srq (as in sraq, sriqa) means "empty", "emptiness". Not necessarily a desert (a deserted place), also things like empty bottles (buqi sriqi) or trees with no fruit (ilaney sraq). And yet the explanation of Ishmaelites = sirqain/sarqiin = "people from the desert" seems plausible.

Whether this is the source of Saracens - IDK.


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## fdb

relativamente said:


> The Dictionary  of the Spanish Real Academia gives this etymology for "sarraceno"
> Del lat. Sarracēni, y este del arameo rabínico sarq[iy]īn, habitantes del desierto, der. de srāq, desierto



In this form that is nonsense. Latin did not borrow words from “Rabbinic Aramaic”. Saraceni is of course borrowed from Greek. As Origumi has pointed out, there is an Aramaic (JBA, Syriac, Mandaic) adjective _sr__īq_ “empty” (not “desert”), but the syrqʼyn in the Targum of the Joseph story is probably a transcription of Greek _sarak__ēnoi_, and not connected with the word for “empty”.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> In this form that is nonsense. Latin did not borrow words from “Rabbinic Aramaic”. Saraceni is of course borrowed from Greek. As Origumi has pointed out, there is an Aramaic (JBA, Syriac, Mandaic) adjective _sr__īq_ “empty” (not “desert”), but the syrqʼyn in the Targum of the Joseph story is probably a transcription of Greek _sarak__ēnoi_, and not connected with the word for “empty”.


The earliest Jewish Aramaic appearance of  sirqai = Arabic that I could find is in Talmud Yerushalmi, dated to 3rd-4th century (אזלון זבנון ליה חדא חמר מחד סירקאי = they went and purchased for him a donkey from an Arab, in ירושלמי בבא מציעא פרק ב הלכה ה). So Greek influence is certainly possible.


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