# Suddenly (focusing on meanings)



## ThomasK

I am well aware of the fact that there has been a similar thread but it focused on translations only, not on the meanings. Therefore I hope this new thread will be allowed here because it aims to explore the concept using various translations... _(If necessary, it can be merged of course, but...)_

I mention some "equivalents" with their meanings... 

Dutch/ German_: _*plots(eling)/ plötzlich* - an onomatopeia, *eensklaps/ plotsklaps* (not that common) - a reference to a sudden blow (klap)

French: *soudain* (// suddenly) - based on _subire_, undergo, occuring secretly (and being a victim??)

English: *out of the blue [sky] *- like lightning?   _(Maybe not a perfect synonym, but certainly related)_

German: *über Nacht*_, I think - _not literally overnight, not in the English meaning (very fast), but all of a sudden, I think..


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## Welsh_Sion

Working on it @ThomasK ...

I think you're right about the English version - but you seem to have omitted the more current expression relating it to lightning: *a bolt from the blue*. (Though I guess this is actually 'a thunderbolt' not technically 'lightning')

In French, you may need to mention _*coup de foudre *_(again, 'lightning associated' - a sudden 'blow of lightning', perhaps ...)


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## ThomasK

Well, I am not that familiar with expressions, I am afraid. But indeed, thunder and lightning are considered unpredictable, I guess. We have the a combination of the two perhaps: _een donderslag _[thunder-beat/strike/bolt?] _bij heldere hemel _[in a clear (blue) sky]. 

But _coup de foudre_ is very romantic indeed and very sudden. But it is not in an adverbial expression, I think. 

But thanks in advance for the Welsh contribution. Looking forward!


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## Ansku89

In Finnish we can also get a lightning bolt from a clear sky (salama kirkkaalta taivaalta), and also in Swedish I think, so this expression seems to be somewhat international. Another Finnish expression is "from behind a tree" (puun takaa).


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## ThomasK

From behind a tree: interesting, but I guess you have more of those! ;-) We generally think of blows, as I pointed out: getting hit, struck, by something, unawares of course.


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## Penyafort

In Catalan it's *de cop i volta*, literally, _of hit and turn_.


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## ThomasK

Something like: I was hit and then turned rightaway? (So here's the hitting again --- the turning is logical, but I do not see it mentioned in expressions in other languages, if I understand correctly of course!)


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## Welsh_Sion

Definitely not romantic and not necessarily sudden ... but it comes as a shock to the person struck: *hit and run*. (struck by a vehicle and the driver escapes so as not to be found and blamed for the 'accident')


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## Welsh_Sion

Some other expressions involving suddenness.|

*English*

In two shakes of a lamb's tail
In no time (at all)
At once
Before you can say 'knife'
Quicker than/Before you can say 'Jack Robinson'
Jack Robinson (mythical person) - Wikipedia
In the blinking of an eye (cf. Welsh: _mewn chwinciad_ - in a wink. Also, _mewn dau chwinc_ 'in two winks')

*Cymraeg/Welsh*

_Mewn cachiad chwanen_ - In a flea's shitting (** Vulgar **)
_Ar chwap_ - On a quick stroke or blow


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## apmoy70

Greek:

*«Μου ήρθε κεραμίδα»* [mu ˈirθe̞ ce̞ɾaˈmiða] --> _a roof tile fell down on me_ (for sudden events, not so pleasant). *«Κεραμίδα»* [ce̞ɾaˈmiða] (fem.) is the feminine form of *«κεραμίδι»* [ce̞ɾaˈmiði] (neut.) --> _roof tile_, Byzantine diminutive neuter noun *«κεραμίδι(ο)ν» keramídi(o)n* (idem) < Classical fem. noun *«κέραμος» kérămŏs* --> _potter's earth, tile, earthen vessel, jar, wine-jar, pottery_ (of unknown etymoloɡy; could be IE from *kerH, _to burn, ɡlow_, with coɡnates the Lith. karštas, _hot_, Proto-Germanic *herþ, _hearth_).

*«Στα καλά καθούμενα»* [s̠ta kaˈla kaˈθume̞na] --> lit. _(as I was) well and sittinɡ_, metaph. _all of a sudden, unexpectedly_; the adv. «καθούμενα» is found only in this idiom = dialectal variant of mediopassive participle *«καθήμενος»* [kaˈθime̞no̞s̠] --> _sittinɡ_ < Classical deponent v. *«κάθημαι» kătʰēmai* --> _to sit down, settle_, a compound: Classical prefix and preposition *«κατά» kătắ* + Classical deponent v. *«ἧμαι» hêmai* --> _to sit down, be seated_ (PIE *h₁eh₁s- _to sit_ cf. Hitt. ēša, _to sit_, Skt. आस्ते (ā́ste), _to sit_, Av. āste, _to sit_).

*«Ως δια μαγείας»* [o̞s̠ ˌðʲamaˈʝi.as̠] --> _like maɡic, maɡically_ (suddenly, just like maɡicians make thinɡs appear or disappear; the language is a bit archaic and points to Katharevousa).

*«Έπεσα απ'τα σύννεφα!»* [ˈe̞pe̞s̠aptaˈs̠ine̞fa] --> _I fell from the clouds!_ (for a sudden event, no-one expected).
*«Έκανε κι ο πετεινός αβγό!»* [ˈe̞kane̞ ˌcio̞petiˈno̞s̠ avˈɣo̞] --> _And the rooster laid an eɡɡ!_ (when something so sudden and unbelievable happens).


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## Circunflejo

In Spanish there's de golpe y porrazo (literally of hit and blow with a nightstick).


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## סייבר־שד

Some more that come to mind in Spanish would be:

• _de buenas a primeras_: literally "from good (ones) to first (ones)".

• _a las primeras de cambio_: bit of a rough translation, perhaps, "off the first change".

• _sin decir agua va_: "without saying water coming". 

I'm afraid I'm not sure how exactly the first two came to be, but as far as I know, the last one comes from the by-far-not-at-all-pleasant custom of emptying the content of chamber pots through the windows and onto the street down below in the olden days.


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## Dymn

Other expressions in Catalan:

_*de sobte*: _of sudden (< Latin _subitum_)
_*tot d'una*: _all of one
_*en sec*_: in dry (this is common in Camp de Tarragona, in other regions it's just used for _tallar en sec, frenar en sec_ "to cut/brake abruptly")



ThomasK said:


> Something like: I was hit and then turned rightaway? (So here's the hitting again --- the turning is logical, but I do not see it mentioned in expressions in other languages, if I understand correctly of course!)


I think it's interesting to note both _*cop *_"hit" (in Catalonia) and _*volta *_"turn" (in Valencia) can be used as synonyms for _*vegada*_ "time" (as in _vez/fois/Mal_)". Other dialectal synonyms are _*pic *_"peak" (in Majorca) and _*camí *_"path" (in Western Catalonia).


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## ThomasK

סייבר־שד said:


> Some more that come to mind in Spanish would be:
> 
> • _de buenas a primeras_: literally "from good (ones) to first (ones)".
> 
> • _a las primeras de cambio_: bit of a rough translation, perhaps, "off the first change".
> 
> I'm afraid I'm not sure how exactly the first two came to be, but (...)


If you don't mind, could you give me two contexts in which you could use these? The second one reminds me of the Flemish "van(af) de eerste keer", which would however mean: rightaway. And of course speed is important in that kind of situations, as it is often the speed that creates the surprise...


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## סייבר־שד

ThomasK said:


> If you don't mind, could you give me two contexts in which you could use these? The second one reminds me of the Flemish "van(af) de eerste keer", which would however mean: rightaway. And of course speed is important in that kind of situations, as it is often the speed that creates the surprise...



You know, it's interesting that the DRAE states that both of those expressions can mean either "suddenly" or "at first sight, right away, right off the start", yet I can't really remember any instances right now when I heard either employed to convey the second meaning, but better take it into account, as well. 😉 It would certainly make them partially equivalent to Flemish's "van(af) de eerst keer"!

As for examples of each, and off the top of my head:

• _"De buenas a primeras, Rebeca le dijo a sus papás que se iba a vivir a Luxemburgo con su nueva pareja."_ = _"Out of the blue, Rebeca told her parents that she was going to Luxembourg to live there with her new partner."_

• _"Ese año Román fue eliminado a las primeras de cambio del torneo de ajedrez de Moscú."_ = _"That year Román was eliminated right off the start of the Moscow chess tournament."_


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## ThomasK

i did not know the Diccionario de la lengua española, but I guess that is the source (DRAE) you are referring to.  Very interesting information/ consideration! I am inclined to think that one has led to the other, but that it is so very difficult to say which one came first. It reminds me of metonymies, where the shift is "experienced" as natural, but there the original meaning is quite clear, I think.


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## ThomasK

Welsh_Sion said:


> Some other expressions involving suddenness.|
> 
> *English*
> 
> In two shakes of a lamb's tail
> In no time (at all)
> At once
> Before you can say 'knife'
> Quicker than/Before you can say 'Jack Robinson'
> Jack Robinson (mythical person) - Wikipedia
> In the blinking of an eye (cf. Welsh: _mewn chwinciad_ - in a wink. Also, _mewn dau chwinc_ 'in two winks')
> 
> *Cymraeg/Welsh*
> 
> _Mewn cachiad chwanen_ - In a flea's shitting (** Vulgar **)
> _Ar chwap_ - On a quick stroke or blow


Very interesting, had not noticed these at first!

But here we have the variation/... between two meanings again: between "suddenly" vs./and "fast". We can say "we waren in geen tijd klaar"(or something similar: we were ready in no time), but then there is no surprise there - except in the sense that we surprise ourselves... ;-) I can see some intrinsic link between speed and surprise, but I think that in Dutch both meanings are considered different. But I'll check at the Dutch forum...


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## Sobakus

Latin _*subitō*_ "suddenly", _subitum _"something sudden" is based on the meaning of "coming up to or behind, sneaking up; closely following". For example, someone comes up to you and immediately does something unexpected before you've noticed them. Hence _subitāneus_ "coming up, happening suddenly" > Fr. _soudain; dē subitō_ "right down from coming up, all of a sudden" > Cat. _de sobte._

The make-up of Russian *внеза́пно* is opaque to native speakers; its an adverb based on an adjective based on an ORu adverb _вънеза́поу vŭnezápu,_ from _въ_ "in", expressing adverbial manner + _не _"not, un-" ORu _за́па_ "expectation, hope", the latter word < _zā + *op-_ probably cognate to Latin _opīnārī_ "to suppose" (probably not to English _hope_), so basically "in an unexpected manner".


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## Włoskipolak 72

Polish 

nagle = suddenly 

z nagła = all at once

jak grom z jasnego nieba = a bolt from the blue

ni stąd, ni zowąd = out of thin air

raptem , raptownie = all of a sudden (abruptly)


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## סייבר־שד

ThomasK said:


> i did not know the Diccionario de la lengua española, but I guess that is the source (DRAE) you are referring to.  Very interesting information/ consideration! I am inclined to think that one has led to the other, but that it is so very difficult to say which one came first. It reminds me of metonymies, where the shift is "experienced" as natural, but there the original meaning is quite clear, I think.


That is, indeed, the one I meant, sorry for not making that clearer before!


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## Armas

Ansku89 said:


> In Finnish we can also get a lightning bolt from a clear sky (salama kirkkaalta taivaalta), and also in Swedish I think, so this expression seems to be somewhat international. Another Finnish expression is "from behind a tree" (puun takaa).


And yet another (more colloquial) expression is *puskista* "from the bushes".


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## ThomasK

Well, I guess you have more forests... I'd associate such expressions with ambushes, i.e., sudden attacks, but those are unexpected too of course.


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## Sobakus

Armas said:


> And yet another (more colloquial) expression is *puskista* "from the bushes".


Ok, it would be criminal at this point not to introduce everyone to Превед медвед (Prevéd medvéd)


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## Nanon

Sobakus said:


> Latin _*subitō*_ "suddenly", _subitum _"something sudden" is based on the meaning of "coming up to or behind, sneaking up; closely following". For example, someone comes up to you and immediately does something unexpected before you've noticed them. Hence _subitāneus_ "coming up, happening suddenly" > Fr. _soudain; dē subitō_ "right down from coming up, all of a sudden" > Cat. _de sobte._


We should add FR _tout à coup_, literally "all of a blow" (or even more literally "all at blow") instead of "all of a sudden". Often mixed with _tout d'un coup_, "all at once" - many speakers consider these expressions interchangeable. See tout à coup / tout d'un coup


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## סייבר־שד

Sobakus said:


> Ok, it would be criminal at this point not to introduce everyone to Превед медвед (Prevéd medvéd)
> View attachment 67427View attachment 67429


I didn't know this, but it made my day 🤣😁 , cheers! Or should I say спазыба? 😎


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## סייבר־שד

Nanon said:


> We should add FR _tout à coup_, literally "all of a blow" (or even more literally "all at blow") instead of "all of a sudden". Often mixed with _tout d'un coup_, "all at once" - many speakers consider these expressions interchangeable. See tout à coup / tout d'un coup


That's one I'll never forget, since it was one of the first expressions I looked up on my _"Robert de poche"_ when I had just started learning French. _"Le Robert" _certainly considers both forms to mean the same, by the way. 😉


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## Sobakus

סייבר־שד said:


> I didn't know this, but it made my day 🤣😁 , cheers! Or should I say спазыба? 😎


_падонкаффский_ doesn't seem to have a form more special than the generic "спасиба", but there's a non-specifically padonkaffsky alteration "збазеба" that you can use to give your thankyous a serving of quirky flavour :-D


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## סייבר־שד

Sobakus said:


> _падонкаффский_ doesn't seem to have a form more special than the generic "спасиба", but there's a non-specifically padonkaffsky alteration "збазеба" that you can use to give your thankyous a serving of quirky flavour :-D


В таком случае...збазеба бальшой! 😁


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## Penyafort

Sobakus said:


> Latin _*subitō*_ "suddenly", _subitum _"something sudden" is based on the meaning of "coming up to or behind, sneaking up; closely following". For example, someone comes up to you and immediately does something unexpected before you've noticed them. Hence _subitāneus_ "coming up, happening suddenly" > Fr. _soudain; dē subitō_ "right down from coming up, all of a sudden" > Cat. _de sobte._


And Aragonese _*de sopetón*_, with -I guess- voiceless intervocalic stop hypercorrection.


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## Sobakus

Penyafort said:


> And Aragonese _*de sopetón*_, with -I guess- voiceless intervocalic stop hypercorrection.


I think it's vowel insertion to avoid the cluster (_bt_ is phonetically [pt]). But I vaguely remember some Romance area where b often surfaces as p, presumably due to a variety with betacism and no intervocalic /b/ being in contact with a variety that had intervocalic /b/. Cf. Sardinian _habeō > abio > appo._


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## Dymn

Penyafort said:


> And Aragonese _*de sopetón*_, with -I guess- voiceless intervocalic stop hypercorrection.


Wait this is specifically Aragonese?


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> Wait this is specifically Aragonese?


No, it isn't.


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> Wait this is specifically Aragonese?


I've seen it is in the DRAE too.

I've also heard it in Spanish, but always in Aragon, so I thought it could be a widespread Aragonism. Maybe I was misled by that intervocalic voiceless -p- too.


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## סייבר־שד

Penyafort said:


> I've seen it is in the DRAE too.
> 
> I've also heard it in Spanish, but always in Aragon, so I thought it could be a widespread Aragonism. Maybe I was misled by that intervocalic voiceless -p- too.


I've heard it used here in Mexico, as well. Not often, admittedly, and practically never by the younger generations, but it's still used from time to time.


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## Nanon

And this is from Venezuela (not used often, either)


> Cuando 'e sopetón
> se metió un murciélago
> por el balcón
> y los ratoncitos
> corrieron toditos
> bajo el butacón 🎵
> Letra de la canción Oración ratona - Cecilia Todd


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## ThomasK

Just thinking;_ tout d'un coup/ tout à coup_. It refers to a blow, doesn"t it (just like the Dutch eensklaps/ of one blow (lit.)). I guess it has to do with the fact that sudden things take us by surprise in happening very fast, hitting hard, just like  a thunder/ lightning bolt.


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## Nanon

Yes, @ThomasK , inexpectedly, like a blow.


סייבר־שד said:


> _"Le Robert" _certainly considers both forms to mean the same, by the way. 😉


As I said above, most speakers do. Robert does, Larousse does. The hyper-conservative Académie française doesn't and the less conservative Office québécois de la langue française doesn't either: Banque de dépannage linguistique - Tout à coup et tout d'un coup. To me, it sounds like the typical malicious question that one finds in style and how-to-write-correctly manuals, to check if you know your standards


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## Sobakus

Here's some actual Russian idioms for this:

_как снег на́ голову_ "like snow [dropping] on one's head" - talking about a snow pack falling from a spruce tree.
_с бу́хты-бара́хты_ "from thump-you flap-abouts": the two words are alterations of 1) _бу́хать_ "to thump, bang" + _ты_ "you" like _у́х ты_ "wow!"; and 2) _бара́хтать(ся)_ "to flap one's limbs, wallow"). Judging by the second part, the thump is you falling down in a comical way - remember that we have lots of ice here 
_как гром среди́ я́сного не́ба_ "like thunder among clear skies" - and thunder too!
_отку́да ни возьми́сь_ "wheresoever he/she/it might appear from, i.e. appearing from Devil knows where".
_ни с того́ ни с сего́ _"neither from this [cause] nor from that one".
_как по манове́нию волше́бной па́лочки_ (etc.) "as if at the wave of a magic wand" - obviously also meaning "effortlessly".


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## ThomasK

Sobakus said:


> Here's some actual Russian idioms for this:
> 
> _как снег на́ голову_ "like snow [dropping] on one's head" - talking about a snow pack falling from a spruce tree.
> remember that we have lots of ice here
> _отку́да ни возьми́сь_ "wheresoever he/she/it might appear from, i.e. appearing from Devil knows where".
> _ни с того́ ни с сего́ _"neither from this [cause] nor from that one".
> _как по манове́нию волше́бной па́лочки_ (etc.) "as if at the wave of a magic wand" - obviously also meaning "effortlessly".


So strange to me that 'your" snowflakes can cause shocks! ;-) But OK, I think I see what you mean: it is quite a load of snow falling from a tree, all of  a sudden, that is different! 

The neither/nor is surprising to me. is there some logic in that in your view? 

The last one is somewhat strange to me too. i do understand the surprise, but is this expression not too positive to express real suddenness? But perhaps I am mistaken when I associate suddenness with a negative meaning...


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## Sobakus

ThomasK said:


> The neither/nor is surprising to me. is there some logic in that in your view?


It means "seemingly from nowhere".


ThomasK said:


> The last one is somewhat strange to me too. i do understand the surprise, but is this expression not too positive to express real suddenness? But perhaps I am mistaken when I associate suddenness with a negative meaning...


There's no contradiction between sudenness and positiveness; magic wands are generally used to suddenly make good things happens; even the Gallicism "surprise" itself is positive.


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## ThomasK

You are certainly right: surprise/ verrassing have a neutral or a positive connotation. , And I could say that I _plots_ get a surprise or _plots _get a present. Or more precisely: then it is descriptive. Yet, would I be mistaken if I thought the basic meaning could be negative? (As a matter: coup, bolt, klap, etc., can really hurt)


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## Sobakus

It's in the animal nature to avoid sudden occurrences because suddenness is what predators rely on; additionally it's in the human nature to do the same because sudden events are outside our control, and humans rely on controlling our environment to survive. But humans can conceive of either positive or negative chance events, and human language can have words for real suddenness that is either positive or negative. So on the one hand many words for surprise come from negative occurences (blows, falls, thunder), but on the other, laughter and humour relies on pleasant unexpectedness.


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## Roxxxannne

To add to Welsh_Sion's list in English (#9):
_In a flash,_ which sometimes seems to me to have to do with light and color and movement all together in one instant.  An idea can come to me in a flash ("enlightenment") and a bird sitting in a tree, say, can be gone in a flash (sudden motion).


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