# General pronunciation: foreign proper nouns, especially in BE



## CarolSueC

For a long time I have been puzzled by the fact that educated speakers of British English still anglicize the pronunciation of foreign proper nouns (names of individuals and groups primarily) instead of pronouncing them as the native speaker does.  I'm not referring to sounds which do not occur in English.  For example, why would one pronounce "Picasso" with the sound of "a" as in "cat" instead of the sound of "a" as in "castle" as pronounced by a British speaker.  I frequently listen to BBC World Service, and this is becoming annoying.  I notice that experts being interviewed often pronounce words such as "Hamas," "Fatah," and "Islamic" as Middle Eastern speakers do, but the BBC newsreaders still use the pronunciation I refer to above.  Is this perhaps related to colonial attitudes of the past?


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## maxiogee

I think it is more likely to be done as it is the way the ordinary viewer might expect the words to be pronounced.
They will have seen the word in print, probably before they have heard it being pronounced 'correctly', and will have applied _what they think_ is the correct pronunciation, according to how they pronounce the character-string in English.

Thus a place which cropped up regularly in the 1960s-1990's news coverage of Ireland was Dundalk - Irish people pronounce this as Dun-dawk, but the British newsreaders pronounced the 'l' - Dund-all-k.

I don't think there's any colonialist or imperialist hangover, it's just how the character-strings are read.


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## foxfirebrand

I agree that many British people seem particularly prone to the "insular" approach in pronouncing foreign place names-- notably more than we Americans, who are pretty bad at it ourselves.

Americans say Nick-a-ROG-wah, not really too bad.  Brits say Knicker-RAGG-you-wah.  Bloody atrocious!  Clean up your act _now_, you people!

Of course we say KYOO-ba, which is a similar mistake-- how hard is COO-ba to master?

I agree that the short-a _æsh_ sound is to blame. Sri Lænka instead of Sri Lonka. Oh, and we can't leave out Check-a-slo-VÆCKY-yah. Why can't we say Slo-VAHH-kia? 

You've got some catching up to do-- Americans are even starting to say ih-ROCK instead of ih-RACK, or worse, EYE-rack.

I trust the expanded news coverage of worldwide events, driven by technology, will eventually take off these rough edges. In the meantime-- fingernails on the blackboard!
.


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## panjandrum

If you think these examples are strange, you should hear the BBC wrestle with Irish place names.  And I don't mean the names that actually are Irish.  I mean places like Coalisland.  Now wouldn't a normal person look at that and see Coal island?  Not the BBC.  Ko-'al-is-land.

OK, I can see they might need tuition for Ballymageogh or Ahoghill


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## foxfirebrand

Yeah, I live in a backwater too-- when out-of-the-way places get briefly limelighted (limelit?) by attention from the media, the local pronunciation usually gets bent out of shape. Nearby Missoula gets pronounced with unvoiced esses, for example.

I have to admit when I'm doing genealogical research most of the British placenames I come across are probably pronounced in ways I couldn't even guess-- and I don't just mean the ones in Wales. There should be a worldwide lookup website with *.wav-file snippets everyone can refer to, provided by local people-- with pranksters screened out, of course. There would be the rub.

edit:
By the way, I saw Co-ALL-is-land too.
.


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## Brioche

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I agree that many British people seem particularly prone to the "insular" approach in pronouncing foreign place names-- notably more than we Americans, who are pretty bad at it ourselves.
> 
> Americans say Nick-a-ROG-wah, not really too bad. Brits say Knicker-RAGG-you-wah. Bloody atrocious! Clean up your act _now_, you people!
> 
> Of course we say KYOO-ba, which is a similar mistake-- how hard is COO-ba to master?
> 
> I agree that the short-a _æsh_ sound is to blame. Sri Lænka instead of Sri Lonka. Oh, and we can't leave out Check-a-slo-VÆCKY-yah. Why can't we say Slo-VAHH-kia?
> 
> You've got some catching up to do-- Americans are even starting to say ih-ROCK instead of ih-RACK, or worse, EYE-rack.
> 
> I trust the expanded news coverage of worldwide events, driven by technology, will eventually take off these rough edges. In the meantime-- fingernails on the blackboard!
> .


 
This is a ticklish point.

When I speak German, I pronounce _Berlin_ in the German way, and _Paris_ in the German way, and _London_ in the German way - and I call _France_ Frankreich, and _Warsaw_ Warschau.
When I speak French, I pronounce _Paris,_ _France_ and _Berlin_ in the French way, and I call _England _Angleterre, _London_ Londres and _Warsaw_ Varsovie.

When I speak English, I pronounce Berlin, Paris, France &c in the BE way. I call _Deutschland_ Germany, _Shquipera_ Albania, _Ella__V_ Greece, 中國 China.
I have no idea how the locals pronounce _Republika e Shqipërisë, _so I say Albania.

Cuba for me has the same *u* as cube. Chile the country sounds the same as chilly weather. I don't velerize the* l* in Portugal - as for the *u* see Cuba. 
The *d*s in Madrid are still *d*.

Picasso will have to put up with me saying what I see. 
If he wanted to be pronounced arse instead of ass, he should have changed the spelling.

If the Irish wrote Coal Island, we'd see Coal Island.

I know how the Dutch pronounce van Gogh, but if I say it that way, who will know who it is?


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## moodywop

I think foreign proper nouns are pronounced according to the local pronunciation in most countries. The trouble is when they are mangled out of recognition. When British people pronounce _Capri_ as /ka'pree/ (the 'a' reduced to a barely audible _schwa_)instead of /kapri/ it's hard for an Italian to understand what they mean. On the other hand the Italian pronunciation of _Birmingham _is something like "bee-rrr-mean-gum"


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## Outsider

I think it's simply that they do not know how to pronounce the names in the original. Besides, it rolls off one's tongue more easily. Switching back and forth between two accents while you're speaking can be a nuisance.


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## Aupick

English speakers don't anglicise foreign place names when they speak. They just don't "foreign-ise" them. I suspect the same can be said of most people in the world. I speak French and German and usually pronounce French and German place names according to French and German rules, but I'm met with incomprehension when speaking to other anglophones who don't speak French or German. I think I know how the H is used in Italian and can make myself understood in Italy, but I had a hard time when ordering bruschetta in the US last summer and had to break the rule to get served. I expect the experts on TV are motivated by the same (admirable) desire to communicate rather than show off their linguistic skills.

I have no idea how Spanish or other languages are pronounced -- what can I do but guess based on the sounds the letters make in other languages that I know? I don't carry around a quick pronunciation guide to all languages in the world in case I need to refer to a given place. Besides, place names often break the rules.

And when it comes to the difference between the two A sounds, the distinction doesn't exist in my accent. I pronounce cat, castle, Picasso and Iraq with the same vowel sound, and I believe a good portion of British speakers do the same (those in the North, notably). Besides, I have a hard time believing that the long A of castle is any more suitable a pronunciation for Picasso or Iraq as the short ones.

In short, if Brits are speaking to non-Brits, they should make an effort to pronounce the place as a native would, because that's how they're going to be understood. If Brits are speaking to Brits, they should use whatever conventions have grown up about the pronuncation of that name in English, because that's how they're going to be understood.


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## Brioche

moodywop said:
			
		

> I think foreign proper nouns are pronounced according to the local pronunciation in most countries. The trouble is when they are mangled out of recognition. When British people pronounce _Capri_ as /ka'pree/ (the 'a' reduced to a barely audible _schwa_)instead of /kapri/ it's hard for an Italian to understand what they mean. On the other hand the Italian pronunciation of _Birmingham _is something like "bee-rrr-mean-gum"


 
In 1958 Frank Sinatra [an American of Italian descent!] released the song _Isle of Capri_, and made it rhyme with tree. 
So blame Old Blue-eyes!

_'twas on the Isle of Capri that I found her
Beneath the shade of an old walnut tree
Oh, I can still see the flowers blooming round her
Where we met on the Isle of Capri_


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## anything

moodywop said:
			
		

> it's hard for an Italian to understand what they mean. On the other hand the Italian pronunciation of _Birmingham _is something like "bee-rrr-mean-gum"


You should hear the erroneous pronunciation of certain British place names by educated speakers of American English.


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## timpeac

CarolSueC said:
			
		

> For a long time I have been puzzled by the fact that educated speakers of British English still anglicize the pronunciation of foreign proper nouns (names of individuals and groups primarily) instead of pronouncing them as the native speaker does. I'm not referring to sounds which do not occur in English. For example, why would one pronounce "Picasso" with the sound of "a" as in "cat" instead of the sound of "a" as in "castle" as pronounced by a British speaker.


 
I don't understand this (I don't know how middle Eastern people pronounce their words so I can't comment on the second bit of your statement).

The way we pronounce Picasso, with the a of "cat" rather than the "ah" of "castle" sounds much more like the Spanish pronunciation of that vowel. I really don't see your point. If anything I would have said exactly the opposite (eg why do Americans consistently get it wrong) - and funnily enough now you've brought it up the other way, I will -

Americans seem to go out of their way to pronounce Spanish words wrong (in the English speaking context, I mean, I don't mean to suggest they necessarily pronounce them wrong when speaking Spanish). Why do they say "Carlos" with the o of "most" when the Spanish is a short rather open vowel? Why do they pronounce "a" like "o" so that "las vegas" sounds like they are saying "los vegas" (I mean "los" as a Spanish speaker would pronounce it)? And vice versa why do they pronounce "o" like "a" so that "los angeles" sounds like "las angeles"? I suppose at least they don't say "lowse angeles"!

I hope I don't sound defensive there - I find it very funny. I was honestly going to get round to asking why Americans don't respect local pronunciation so much - particularly Spanish when there is a huge Spanish contingent in the country - and then you ask the same about the British!!

I honestly don't understand your point about Picasso though, it really seems to my ear to be the other way round!

Having seen people such as FFB whose opinion I respect agree with you I can only presume that each people is hearing their own pronunciation as being more appropriate.

Other than a fist-fight which would be fun but rather unpractical I think the only way to settle this is to ask a Spanish-speaking native with knowledge of both accents - 

which variety BE or AE pronounces your words best within the English speaking context, _eg not when actively trying to speak Spanish?_

Whatever the answer to that, I think we could say that the average pronunciation in either country of a foreign name is far from that of its original language - but in the foreign languages I know they are no better at respecting original pronunciation of other languages as far as I'm aware.


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## timpeac

Aupick said:
			
		

> And when it comes to the difference between the two A sounds, the distinction doesn't exist in my accent. I pronounce cat, castle, Picasso and Iraq with the same vowel sound, and I believe a good portion of British speakers do the same (those in the North, notably). Besides, I have a hard time believing that the long A of castle is any more suitable a pronunciation for Picasso or Iraq as the short ones.


 
Yes - I agree, but would go even further and say it is a more appropriate approximation. The Spanish "a" of "la" is pretty much the same as the French "a" of "la" since I know you do speak French (which you would agree is more like the "a" of "cat" than the "a" southern "castle", no?)


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## anything

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes - I agree, but would go even further and say it is a more appropriate approximation. The Spanish "a" of "la" is pretty much the same as the French "a" of "la" since I know you do speak French (which you would agree is more like the "a" of "cat" than the "a" southern "castle", no?)


That's what I thought too. In fact, the mispronunciation of the Spanish "a" as a longer "a" sound is one of the characteristic errors of a native English speaker speaking in Spanish.
Having said that, I'm not sure if Picasso is actually a Spanish (or at least Castilian) surname, since it has a double "s", so maybe CarolSueC was referring to the pronunciation in some other language (Italian, I guess).
Being a Northerner, like Aupick, I agree about the "a" in "cat" and "castle" having the same sound anyway.


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## thrice

A lot of languages pronounce vowels and dipthongs very differently, and unless you know exactly what language the word comes from, and you know the rules of pronunciation for that language, a lot of guesswork has to be done. My last name, Crisanti, is Italian, and you should hear some of the guesses people make at the pronunciation when they call trying to sell long distance phone service and such... "Christian"(???????) is somehow a  ridiculously common one. I guess some people just shut down and make a guess as soon as they come across a foreign looking word. I do believe that figures in the media should be knowledgable and worldly enough to make a correct pronunciation, however.

I was taking a few courses in Italy last semester at a school with  predominately British students, and I noticed a few interesting things. For example, I noticed that when they said "tortilla"  they pronounced it as "tor-TILL-uh", which is excruciating to my Texan ears. I asked them about it, and they said that if you were to pronounce it properly in Britain like a native Spanish speaker would, you could come across as being pretentious (coming from a Northern Irish student). However, when they said "croissant", they pronounced it as one would in French. I've never heard anyone in the U.S. (especially here in Texas) pronouncing "croissant" any way other than "cro-SAWNT", and they might come across as pretentious and full of it if they said it the correct, French way. Does anyone else find this to be true?

I think some people intentionally pronounce foreign words incorrectly for fear of being laughed at and thought of as full of it. I've found that the subject of meteorologists suddenly speaking with a foreign accent for one or two foreign words while they give their forecast is common with stand up comedians  

Anyways, this is just my two cents. I'm sure others have different opinions and experiences, and I'd love to hear them.


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## Brioche

thrice said:
			
		

> I was taking a few courses in Italy last semester at a school with predominately British students, and I noticed a few interesting things. For example, I noticed that when they said "tortilla" they pronounced it as "tor-TILL-uh", which is excruciating to my Texan ears. I asked them about it, and they said that if you were to pronounce it properly in Britain like a native Spanish speaker would, you could come across as being pretentious (coming from a Northern Irish student). However, when they said "croissant", they pronounced it as one would in French.


 
Tortilla is not a good example!  The pronuciation of *ll *is very variable in Spanish-speaking countries.  And tortilla means omelet in Spain.

English folk are more likely to make an effort of pronounce French words "properly".  May be it's because French is most-taught foreign language in UK.

They'll know how to say _champagne_, _chablis_ and _Châteauneuf du Pape_, but don't let them near a German _spätlese._


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## foxfirebrand

Brioche said:
			
		

> Tortilla is not a good example!  The pronuciation of *ll *is very variable in Spanish-speaking countries.  And tortilla means omelet in Spain.
> 
> English folk are more likely to make an effort of pronounce French words "properly". May be it's because French is most-taught foreign language in UK.
> 
> They'll know how to say _champagne_, _chablis_ and _Châteauneuf du Pape_, but don't let them near a German _spätlese._


Well, it's a great example on the west bank of the Atlantic, where it means the same thing (and is pronounced roughly the same way) in both Spanish and English-speaking areas.

I think the Brits _are_ still partly French, not only from proximity to France itself, but to their/our own history-- the Normans and all that.

In the U.S., German words are sometimes pronounced pretty well, especially culinary ones-- in part because 40% of us are at least partly of German descent, and in part because Yiddish has such currency in the American idiom, via the entertainment industry.

I agree that LOSS Vegas is grating to the ear.  A lot of Anglo-Americanos pronounce Spanish place names a lot better than others, though I'm sure _Montana_ will always rhyme with _Oh! Susanna.
.
_


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## Brioche

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Well, it's a great example on the west bank of the Atlantic, where it means the same thing (and is pronounced roughly the same way) in both Spanish and English-speaking areas.


 
Is tortilla pronounced the same way in Argentina as in Mexico?


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## foxfirebrand

Brioche said:
			
		

> Is tortilla pronounced the same way in Argentina as in Mexico?


Well, I said roughly.  Do they have tortillas in Argentina?  Are they the same as the ones in México?  Or are they omelettes?  If not, do they know about those North-Latin-American tortillas, from howevermany thousand miles away?  And do they pronounce them according to their dialect like an American saying BOOLY-uh-base-- or in the Mexican way, kinda like a Brit saying bwee-ya-BEZZ?

Or to address your question more directly, is _bouillabaise_ pronounced the same way in Argentina as in México?
.


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## moodywop

I agree with what Aupick, Timpeac and Thrice have written in their posts. My personal, unsatisfactory compromise solution is to pronounce, say, Birmingham in a way which is in-between the original pronunciation(which would sound affected) and the Italianized version. Interestingly, I have noticed that Brits living in my town(quite close to Capri) pronounce "Capri" as /'kapri/ when speaking English to each other but /ka'pri:/ to relatives or friends who are just visiting.

With reference to BBC broadcasters, I've found some interesting information about the BBC's attitude to the problem and its "Pronunciation Unit":

_The BBC has an excellent Pronunciation Unit, but most people are not aware that_
_it has no power to persuade broadcasters to use particular pronunciations_

_http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4600000/newsid_4607200/4607243.stm_


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## cirrus

Remember when there was the shooting war in Nagorni Karabakh?  The utter relish announcers showed getting their tongues round that one?


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## timpeac

I've never heard anyone say "tor-TILL-a" and it would be excrutiating to my ears too. The way I've always heard it here in Britain is like "tor tee ya", which isn't so bad since there are some Spanish who pronounce the "ll" like a "y".

Similarly people go on holiday to "Mar bay uh" "Marbella".


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## thrice

Brioche said:
			
		

> Tortilla is not a good example!  The pronuciation of *ll *is very variable in Spanish-speaking countries.  And tortilla means omelet in Spain.



I don't think the fact that different Spanish speaking countries pronounce "LL" differently makes "tortilla" a bad example. In my conversation with the British students the type of tortilla in question was understood to be the traditional Mexican flour or corn tortilla, not the Spanish omelette. "Tortilla" in this context can only have one meaning, and, I assume since we're talking about a Mexican food, one pronunciation (the Mexican Spanish pronunciation).

This brings me to another thought I had - Since many different countries may share the same language, with presumably different accents, should a public figure, like a BBC reporter, change their pronunciation of a foreign proper noun even if the foreign noun is of their native language? For example, should a BBC reporter pronounce New York with an American accent, since it's an American location? For that matter, should we all be pronouncing New York as a New Yorker would? Of course, this is an exaggeration which may be a little unreasonable, but I think that a BBC reporter anglicizing foreign nouns could be an effort to avoid having to deal with the decision of whether a word should be pronounced like a native would say it or simply pronounced with normal English pronunciation. Making a policy of anglicizing all words (though a bit ignorant) would remove any doubt while speaking, and also remove any discrepancies or biases (For example, cringing at the the sound of  "tort-TILL-uh", but being fine with "cruh-SAWNT"   ) . These are all just thoughts as they come to mind, (and it also happens to be 5:00 AM), so I apologize for any rambling or silly ideas.


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## thrice

timpeac said:
			
		

> I've never heard anyone say "tor-TILL-a" and it would be excrutiating to my ears too. The way I've always heard it here in Britain is like "tor tee ya", which isn't so bad since there are some Spanish who pronounce the "ll" like a "y".
> 
> Similarly people go on holiday to "Mar bay uh" "Marbella".



Mexicans pronounce "LL" as an English "y", so the "tor tee ya"  pronunciation you've heard is correct when talking about the Mexican corn or flour tortilla. Even the Spanish pronunciation of the "LL" in "tortilla" hurts my ears a bit from being so used to the Mexican pronunciation. I really don't think I've ever met a Spaniard here in the U.S., but here in Texas you can hear Mexican Spanish being spoken almost anywhere you go.


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## xav

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> _bouillabaise_


 ... I'm not able to translate what this writing means in French, but it's rather funny (bouille-à-baise ! with the ambiguity of "baise"). 
The correct writing is _bouillabaisse_, and "ss" expressly means you have to pronounce "s" and not "z". This small mistake is interesting, since apparently the different AE ways to pronounce this word all include a "z" or even "zz" end. I didn't think this rather difficult noun was used out of France ! So, I'd like to know, if it's relevant to this thread,

1) how it is pronounced in BE, and if possible in other English "dialects"
2) if this word is known out of the English-speaking countries, and how it is pronounced there
3) more widely, what is the lexical and geographical extent of this "z" pronounciation of hard and double "s"s... It spreads a bit into French.


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## Aupick

thrice said:
			
		

> For that matter, should we all be pronouncing New York as a New Yorker would?


Indeed, expecting people to use the local accent when pronouncing place names would require an impossibly encyclopedic knowledge of accents and would lead to embarrassing and comical mangling most of the time. Even people who have been learning a language for years can't usually match the accent. Surely I can be forgiven (and understood) for saying New York without pronouncing that American R. In return I forgive Americans for pronouncing the R on the end of my native Manchester. It doesn't shock me: it just sounds normal. An attempt to pronounce it in a Manchester accent would just sound like the speaker was taking the piss.

There are some changes that are easy to make, and it would be nice if TV presenters or "experts" would make the effort, assuming they know (hopefully "experts" do) or can be told. It's easy enough for Brits to avoid pronouncing the second C in Connecticut (although pronouncing the Ts almost like Ds is too much to ask), or the C in Tucson, but only for those who know something about the US. Similary, it's nice if Americans pronounce Worcester and Leicester as two syllables instead of three, but go ahead and pronounce those Rs.


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## Aupick

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes - I agree, but would go even further and say it is a more appropriate approximation. The Spanish "a" of "la" is pretty much the same as the French "a" of "la" since I know you do speak French (which you would agree is more like the "a" of "cat" than the "a" southern "castle", no?)


I agree that the short "a" of cat is closer to the French "a" and would have imagined the same for Spanish. It's also true for German, although Germans tend to "umlaut" the "a" in certain foreign names: Manchester is pronounced as Mänchester (ie Menchester). If I remember rightly the Big Mac is even spelt "Big Mäc". I've never understood why.


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## I.C.

It's great fun when English speakers try to pronounce "Gewürztraminer" in any way they see fit. A sommelier might do well to learn a decent pronunciation, the average person may not feel the need. That’s fine with me.
Yet a general disregard for the pronunciation of local place names I consider to be a bit disrespectful.


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## timpeac

Aupick said:
			
		

> Indeed, expecting people to use the local accent when pronouncing place names would require an impossibly encyclopedic knowledge of accents and would lead to embarrassing and comical mangling most of the time.


 
Good point - and if we look at one of the original examples "picasso" it gets even more convoluted. Double "ss" is not usual in Spanish, so is this a Spanish word? Is it a Spanish dialect? Were his parents immigrants from some other country? Which native accent is the British speaker supposedly falling so short of in using the "a" of "cat" in "Picasso" and which are the Americans supposedly mimicking so well by using that of "castle"?


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## CarolSueC

moodywop said:
			
		

> I agree with what Aupick, Timpeac and Thrice have written in their posts. My personal, unsatisfactory compromise solution is to pronounce, say, Birmingham in a way which is in-between the original pronunciation(which would sound affected) and the Italianized version. Interestingly, I have noticed that Brits living in my town(quite close to Capri) pronounce "Capri" as /'kapri/ when speaking English to each other but /ka'pri:/ to relatives or friends who are just visiting.
> 
> With reference to BBC broadcasters, I've found some interesting information about the BBC's attitude to the problem and its "Pronunciation Unit":
> 
> _The BBC has an excellent Pronunciation Unit, but most people are not aware that_
> _it has no power to persuade broadcasters to use particular pronunciations_
> 
> _http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4600000/newsid_4607200/4607243.stm_http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs/hi/newsid_4600000/newsid_4607200/4607243.stm


 
Thank you for this reference to BBC policy.  I really opened a "can of worms" with my question.  I wasn't referring to the man in the street who wouldn't have encountered the names before or know about the pronunciation of words in other languages but to those in the media who would be aware of how native speakers pronounce these names and would educate by example. I'm not anti-Brit at all, and I do recognize that many Americans slaughter the pronunciation of foreign nouns. But since American network broadcasters do a better job with foreign names, I guess I am inclined to expect it of the highly regarded BBC.


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## foxfirebrand

xav said:
			
		

> ... I'm not able to translate what this writing means in French, but it's rather funny (bouille-à-baise ! with the ambiguity of "baise").


Ooops!  This is at least the third time I've gotten in trouble with _baiser_, so you'd think I'd learn.  Cognates of this verb in other Romance languages don't pose similar problems-- or maybe I'm in for an unpleasant surprise.

I mostly hear BOO-ly-uh-bayz.  But it should be bwee-ya-BESS?

I think it's fair to say the word is commonly known in the U.S.-- I don't doubt Julia Child batched some up, back in her heyday, and who could forget something like that?
.


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## Jazztronik

Something similar happens to us Spaniards. We use to 'castilianize' English, French, German names, etc. 

As German is so hard for us to pronounce, we have our own names for cities like Köln (Colonia), München (Munich), Aachen (Aquisgrán), Nürnberg (Nurenberg), Basel (Basilea), ... French names: Bourdeaux (Burdeos), Marseille (Marsella), Genève (Ginebra)... English names: London (Londres), ....

Regarding pronunciation, many people say 'doh-beh' to pronounce 'dove', 'eh-space' to pronounce 'space', 'cloob' for 'club', 'soffware' for 'software', 'harware' for 'hardware', etc

We pronounce Chicago, with the 'ch' like in 'cherry', not like 'shicago'. Cincinnatti like 'thin-thee-nat-tee' (except in some parts of Southern Spain), Seattle like 'see-at-tell' or 'see-tell' instead of 'see-attell'.

There're opposite situations, like 'Lossanjaylis' for Los Angeles (real pronunciation is Los-an-heh-less), 'sain-dyeh-go' for San Diego (instead of pronouncing 'San' like the English word 'son' but even more open, and 'dye-goh' without closing the 'oh'), etc.


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## Jazztronik

thrice said:
			
		

> Mexicans pronounce "LL" as an English "y", so the "tor tee ya" pronunciation you've heard is correct when talking about the Mexican corn or flour tortilla. Even the Spanish pronunciation of the "LL" in "tortilla" hurts my ears a bit from being so used to the Mexican pronunciation. I really don't think I've ever met a Spaniard here in the U.S., but here in Texas you can hear Mexican Spanish being spoken almost anywhere you go.


 
To increase your curiosity: another different pronunciation of *'LL' *in Spanish, in Chile but most particularly in Argentina: 'tor-tee-shah'. They pronounce the 'LL' like 'SH'.


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## jdenson

anything said:
			
		

> You should hear the erroneous pronunciation of certain British place names by educated speakers of American English.


Now, that's hardly fair. A person would have to have a Ph.D. in Bizarre British Place Name Pronunciation to have any chance of getting some of them right. 
I'm reminded of the time I asked a friend, a distinguished professor of English Literature, why words like Chalmondely, Beaufort, and Worchestershire are pronounced as they are, and he responded (with tongue firmly in cheek) - "When it comes to English, the English are always so wrong".


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## cirrus

There are several brilliant examples of this near where I come from.  There is a small town called Slaithwaite pronounced Slow- it (the ow here rhymes with ow I've trapped my finger) and Tideswell which is called Tidzer. 

Can't imagine either will ever be on Al Jazeera, CNN or BBC world though.


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## CarolSueC

Aupick said:
			
		

> Indeed, expecting people to use the local accent when pronouncing place names would require an impossibly encyclopedic knowledge of accents and would lead to embarrassing and comical mangling most of the time. Even people who have been learning a language for years can't usually match the accent. Surely I can be forgiven (and understood) for saying New York without pronouncing that American R. In return I forgive Americans for pronouncing the R on the end of my native Manchester. It doesn't shock me: it just sounds normal. An attempt to pronounce it in a Manchester accent would just sound like the speaker was taking the piss.
> 
> There are some changes that are easy to make, and it would be nice if TV presenters or "experts" would make the effort, assuming they know (hopefully "experts" do) or can be told. It's easy enough for Brits to avoid pronouncing the second C in Connecticut (although pronouncing the Ts almost like Ds is too much to ask), or the C in Tucson, but only for those who know something about the US. Similary, it's nice if Americans pronounce Worcester and Leicester as two syllables instead of three, but go ahead and pronounce those Rs.


 
If you reread my original question, I was primarily concerned with names of persons and groups, not place names.  I am also more concerned with those in the media, who could, if they chose, educate the average person, who would not have any idea of how to pronounce those names. See above my response to another member.


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## Outsider

*CarolSue*, I partly agree with you, and I partly disagree. I do think that TV reporters have a responsibility to be better informed about how to pronounce foreign names than the average citizen, and sometimes I hear mispronunciations which make me cringe and are totally unjustified. (*BBC News* reporters seem to be very careful and well-informed with respect to the pronunciation of foreign names, though!  )
On the other hand, it's impossible for reporters to be acquainted with all the languages of the personalities they will have to mention, and, because of that, some mispronunciations are inevitable. I think this is a simple extension of *Aupick*'s point, who, by the way, was replying to *Thrice* in the post you quoted, not to your original question.
Another reason, already mentioned in this thread, is that reporters want to use a pronunciation that the average viewer will understand. If most Britons are used to saying and hearing [p i k ae s o w], they may not understand what you mean if you say [pikaso]. 
As reporters, they're in a position to correct public habits a little bit, true, but if they try to go too far, they will simply fail to get their message across, or sound pretentious.

I invite you to read this earlier discussion. Some Americans were offended that reporters were not pronouncing "New Orleans" as the locals do. But it seemed that even the locals had more than one way of pronouncing the name of their city...


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## cirrus

Actually there are some places which if you pronounced them properly would be utterly unintelligible to the vast majority of English speakers.  

Take Lodz in Poland.  On the BBC this is pronounced to rhyme with hods, the pronunciation unit recognises this is wrong.  The rationale is that if it was pronounced as Łodz, as pronounced by Poles, most people would think where on earth is Wudge?


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## sailingbikeruk

Most British people can't even agree on the pronunciation of english words and places. How can they ever be expected to get foreign place names correct?

There is always local discussion on the pronunciation of places such as Solihull or Bedworth.

Referring to the original post, the a in cat and castle is the same to me as is the a in path, bath and grass.

Lets not get started on the pronunciation of the word scone!

People mostly learn their speaking skills from their immediate family and probably from parents and siblings....who in turn have learnt from there family. One of the hardest things I have learnt in my french studies is how NOT to anglicise pronunciation, but I have had to learn how it wold sound when spoken by a native to do so.

Given that most people would have no idea how these words would sound when spoken by a native surely we are bound to anglicise them and in so doing different people would apply their "standard" pronunciation given what they learned in their early years.


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## timpeac

CarolSueC said:
			
		

> If you reread my original question, I was primarily concerned with names of persons and groups, not place names. I am also more concerned with those in the media, who could, if they chose, educate the average person, who would not have any idea of how to pronounce those names. See above my response to another member.


 
But you have in no way proved that the British media are any worse than anyone else at pronouncing foreign places. As I say, to my ears the standard American pronunciation - and that used by the media - of many foreign words is wrong. And in my opinion, further from the native pronunciation than that of the British.

As a specific example, I dispute that pronouncing "picasso" (assuming it should be pronounced with a "Spanish" accent) with the "a" of "cat" is worse than the "a" of "castle". In the various Spanish I have heard spoken around the world - and the rest of the Romance languages, and German - the "a" of "cat" is in fact more appropriate than the "a" of "castle". I had wondered why American's go out of their way to say "picahso" (and same for other languages "Rackmahninoff" for example)etc. In terms of Spanish, at least, it sounds wrong to me.


----------



## thrice

timpeac said:
			
		

> But you have in no way proved that the British media are any worse than anyone else at pronouncing foreign places. As I say, to my ears the standard American pronunciation - and that used by the media - of many foreign words is wrong. And in my opinion, further from the native pronunciation than that of the British.
> 
> As a specific example, I dispute that pronouncing "picasso" (assuming it should be pronounced with a "Spanish" accent) with the "a" of "cat" is worse than the "a" of "castle". In the various Spanish I have heard spoken around the world - and the rest of the Romance languages, and German - the "a" of "cat" is in fact more appropriate than the "a" of "castle". I had wondered why American's go out of their way to say "picahso" (and same for other languages "Rackmahninoff" for example)etc. In terms of Spanish, at least, it sounds wrong to me.



This is confusing to me.... the "a" in "castle" and "cat" are exactly the same in the standard American accent. I'm guessing one of these sounds more like the Italian pronunciation of "a" or the "o" in "dog", but I don't know which.


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## timpeac

thrice said:
			
		

> This is confusing to me.... the "a" in "castle" and "cat" are exactly the same in the standard American accent. I'm guessing one of these sounds more like the Italian pronunciation of "a" or the "o" in "dog", but I don't know which.


 
Thrice - refer way back to the first post in the thread. The "a" of "castle" is meant to be that of (southern) UK where it is pronounced "ah" like you say at the dentists.


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## Outsider

As a speaker of a Romance language who has listened to Spanish many times, here are my $0.02:

U.K. c*a*stle --> Yep, close enough to Spanish _a_ (although the aspirated consonant before it in this word makes it sound a little odd)
U.S. c*a*stle --> Sounds more like a Spanish _e_, but is really a diphthong, to my ears
U.K. c*a*t --> Nope, this is the weird one we have trouble pronouncing.
U.S. c*a*t --> Identical to the _a_ in U.S. _castle_.


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## boonognog

timpeac said:
			
		

> As a specific example, I dispute that pronouncing "picasso" (assuming it should be pronounced with a "Spanish" accent) with the "a" of "cat" is worse than the "a" of "castle". In the various Spanish I have heard spoken around the world - and the rest of the Romance languages, and German - the "a" of "cat" is in fact more appropriate than the "a" of "castle". I had wondered why American's go out of their way to say "picahso" (and same for other languages "Rackmahninoff" for example)etc. In terms of Spanish, at least, it sounds wrong to me.



Why would it not be pronounced with a Spanish accent?  From Wikipedia:



> *Pablo Diego José Santiago Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno Crispín Crispiniano de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz Picasso* was born on October 25, 1881 in Málaga, Spain, the first child of José Ruiz y Blasco and María Picasso y López.



I have never heard any Spanish speakers pronounce the 'a' as in English -- at least the American English I know -- in 'cat'.

As for the pronunciation of Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov, the typical English pronunciation, at least as far as I am familiar with it, is derived from the prevailing German pronunciation, as German publishing houses held the reins on most music coming out of Europe in the late 19th Century and leading into the 20th.

-Tim


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> As a speaker of a Romance language who has listened to Spanish many times, here are my $0.02:
> 
> U.K. c*a*stle --> Yep, close enough to Spanish _a_ (although the aspirated consonant before it in this word makes it sound a little odd)
> U.S. c*a*stle --> Sounds more like a Spanish _e_, but is really a diphthong, to my ears
> U.K. c*a*t --> Nope, this is the weird one we have trouble pronouncing.
> U.S. c*a*t --> Identical to the _a_ in U.S. _castle_.


 
I find this surprising. Having specifically studied courses at university post-degree level where we had to transcribe sounds from a huge selection of languages from around the world, I know that the way I personally pronounce the "a" of "cat" (I'm a standard southern England speaker of English) is almost identical to the "a" in German, Spanish, French (the "a" of "la" not the "a" of "las" in some people's speech). I know that the "a" of "cat" is traditionally written "ae" in dictionaries. This represents an old pronunciation of the vowel (which you can still hear clearly in old films from the 50s and 60s and before). To my ears, and those I studied with, it is now "a" for all but the poshest .01%.

And while we are talking about this - German speakers - if you are going for British English "a" just say that of German. It is not Big meck, it's big mack just as if it were a German word written "mak"!! And my friend Mandy will thank you not to be called Mendy when she goes to Germany!!


----------



## Outsider

timpeac said:
			
		

> I find this surprising. Having specifically studied courses at university post-degree level where we had to transcribe sounds from a huge selection of languages from around the world, I know that the way I personally pronounce the "a" of "cat" (I'm a standard southern England speaker of English) is almost identical to the "a" in German, Spanish, French (the "a" of "la" not the "a" of "las" in some people's speech). I know that the "a" of "cat" is traditionally written "ae" in dictionaries. This represents an old pronunciation of the vowel (which you can still hear clearly in old films from the 50s and 60s and before). To my ears, and those I studied with, it is now "a" for all but the poshest .01%.


Well, I suppose the B. English we learn and hear around here is the one of those poshest .01%. 



			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> And while we are talking about this - German speakers - if you are going for British English "a" just say that of German. It is not Big meck, it's big mack just as if it were a German word written "mak"!! And my friend Mandy will thank you not to be called Mendy when she goes to Germany!!


Have you ever stopped to wonder why they do that? Could it be that they also hear a difference?


----------



## timpeac

boonognog said:
			
		

> Why would it not be pronounced with a Spanish accent? From Wikipedia:


 
I agree - I was playing devil's advocate for Carol who started the thread who was suggesting that all words should be the way "it was intended to be pronounced". Since (as I did explain above) Picasso contains double s this is not normal for a Spanish word ( can you name another one?) so I was saying if we are supposed to be pronouncing this word in its "proper" way perhaps Picasso is a dialect word of Spanish or even an immigrant name and so should be pronounced in the manner of that people. Just trying to show how silly it is to expect people of one language to know all the pronunciation rules of every language around the world really.


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose the B. English we learn and hear around here is the one of those poshest .01%.
> 
> Have you ever stopped to wonder why they do that? Could it be that they also hear a difference?


 
Yes, I have stopped to consider that. I actually had a whole hour lecture on it. The general consensus is that this was how German teachers were taught a while ago and they are still passing down the message although the pronunciation has moved on. No other foreign teachers do it, and the funny thing is that the German pronunciation of "a" is gererally fine. Think "Mann" and use that vowel to ask for a big Mac next time you're in England!!


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## James Brandon

I believe Picasso was Catalan, hence the double 's', which is found in Catalan but not in Castilian, Castilian being the Spanish language that became the dominant and national language of the _whole_ country, historically (and this is no value judgment on my part). To the best of my knowledge, the double 's' is pronounced 's', and that is it, also in Spain/Spanish languages.


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## timpeac

James Brandon said:
			
		

> I believe Picasso was Catalan, hence the double 's', which is found in Catalan but not in Castilian, Castilian being the Spanish language that became the dominant and national language of the _whole_ country, historically (and this is no value judgment on my part). To the best of my knowledge, the double 's' is pronounced 's', and that is it, also in Spain/Spanish languages.


 
And the vowel "a"? This whole debate started from Carol saying that British journalists pronounced foreign words wrong, and an example being that they pronounced "Picasso" with the "a" of "cat" rather than the "a" of "castle". She did not comment on which language this pronunciation was falling short of, but from the time I lived in Barcelona I can't remember noticing any significant difference between the vowel "a" in Catalan and Spanish. Perhaps they both sound like the "a" of big mäc.


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## Jazztronik

Picasso wasn't Catalan. He was born in Málaga (Andalucía).
But anyway, why could someone think he had foreigner ancestors because of the 'ss'? The 'ss' is very common in Catalan/Valencian as James Brandon said (assassí --> killer assassin; carabassa --> pumpkin; essencial --> essential; assolellat --> sunny... there are hundreds). 

The only thing that makes me doubt about the origin of the surname Picasso is the fact that words that end in 'o' are very typical in Castilian, but rare in Catalan/Valencian, and they use to exist because of some castilianization of Catalan and even more in Valencian Catalan. It might be a Castilianized Catalan surname or the opposite.


----------



## timpeac

Jazztronik said:
			
		

> Picasso wasn't Catalan. He was born in Málaga (Andalucía).
> But anyway, why could someone think he had foreigner ancestors because of the 'ss'? The 'ss' is very common in Catalan/Valencian as James Brandon said (assassí --> killer assassin; carabassa --> pumpkin; essencial --> essential; assolellat --> sunny... there are hundreds).
> 
> The only thing that makes me doubt about the origin of the surname Picasso is the fact that words that end in 'o' are very typical in Castilian, but rare in Catalan/Valencian, and they use to exist because of some castilianization of Catalan and even more in Valencian Catalan. It might be a Castilianized Catalan surname or the opposite.


 
This is utterly bizarre.

To paraphrase you -

-Picasso wasn't Catalan he was born in Malaga.
-Why would you think he had foreign ancestors because "ss" is common in Catalan.

Well, and forgive me if I'm being too simplistic here, if Picasso wasn't Catalan but his surname has linguistic qualities that are not common in Castilian but are in Catalan, is this not something to comment on?


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## Dr. Quizá

Picasso was Andalusian. His surname is French. We pronounce it as if it were Spanish and with a single "s".


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## Jazztronik

timpeac said:
			
		

> -Why would you think he had foreign ancestors because "ss" is common in Catalan.


 
I didn't ask the question that way.

I meant: Why would you think he had foreign ancestors just because the 'ss' is not common in Castilian Spanish?

The answer was, because apart from Castilian, there is Catalan/Valencian, Basque, Galician (is this the name in English?), and Bable, and for instance in Catalan the 'ss' is very usual to find.


----------



## timpeac

Jazztronik said:
			
		

> I didn't ask the question that way.
> 
> I meant: Why would you think he had foreign ancestors just because the 'ss' is not common in Castilian Spanish?
> 
> The answer was, because apart from Castilian, there is Catalan/Valencian, Basque, Galician (is this the name in English?), and Bable, and for instance in Catalan the 'ss' is very usual to find.


 
Ok, I _think _I see what you mean

But the point is that even if he is Spanish but not not of "Castillian" origins, or indeed from outside the borders of Spain, then these dialects and other languages have their own pronunciation rules and habits. The first message in the thread questioned why British English speakers didn't use the "a" of "castle" to pronounce "Picasso" "like it is pronounced by the native speakers". I reply to that, well in my opinion if you are talking about Spanish they don't pronounce it that way themselves anyway but moreover if the idea is to mimic "native" pronunciation as closely as possible shouldn't we acertain firstly which language or dialect it is we talking about first. By extension I'm also saying that attempting native pronunciation for foreign words in a language is not very feasible, even for reporters whose job it is is to "communicate".

If Dr Quiza is correct above then by Carol's argument we should all, or at least the reporters, be stressing the final syllable of "Picasso" in the French way, rather than the second.


----------



## Outsider

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes, I have stopped to consider that. I actually had a whole hour lecture on it. The general consensus is that this was how German teachers were taught a while ago and they are still passing down the message although the pronunciation has moved on.


Has it moved on? You say it sounds posh, so I assume posh people still use it.


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## cirrus

It has shifted a lot. That accent has more or less died out.  About the only person who speaks like this these days is the queen who manages to pronounce the a in family as though it was an e - "my femily and I"


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## Outsider

Maybe the actual sound has undergone some changes (yes, the Queen sounds different), but my main question is this: do you pronounce the _a_ in _man_ the same way as the _a_ in _castle_? In other words, do you pronounce _man_ just like _Mann_ in German?

My impression is that Scotsmen do that, but not most Englishmen...


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## cirrus

Outsider said:
			
		

> Maybe the actual sound has undergone some changes (yes, the Queen sounds different), but my main question is this: do you pronounce the _a_ in _man_ the same way as the _a_ in _castle_? In other words, do you pronounce _man_ just like _Mann_ in German?
> 
> My impression is that Scotsmen do that, but not most Englishmen...


 
I'm English and the way I say the two As os identical. I am come from the north where As are short. Go south of Birmingham and the A gets longer. Bath down south rhymes with garth, grass with arse.

And to answer your question whether man in English sounds like Mann in German, yes it does.


----------



## Outsider

cirrus said:
			
		

> And to answer your question whether man in English sounds like Mann in German, yes it does.


I have heard some Brits pronunce it that way, but it didn't seem to be the standard pronunciation...


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## James Brandon

Re. Picasso, I thought his surname (if not his origins) was Catalan. Yes, he was born in Malaga. I did not know his surname was French or he was of French origin (some members of his family at any rate). The name "Picasso" does not sound French to me at all, I must say. Endings in "o" are rather rare in French, far more common in Spanish. But I have not researched Picasso's life.

Re. pronounciation, I believe there remains a difference, phonetically, between the Midlands and N England, where "castle" is pronounced almost like "cat" (phon., /ae/). In S England, "castle" has a long "a" sound, like "to bark", "farce", etc. I would pronounce Picasso by stressing the second syllable and pronouncing it like a S English "a" in "castle"...

This is tricky because you have different pronounciations and dialects in Country A being transferred into various accents and languages in Country B. The tendency in the UK in the last 10-20 years has been, I believe, to pronounce non-English names in a way as close as possible to "the original". It often leads to funny or pretentious phonetics...


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## Jazztronik

To me, to pronounce Picasso by stressing the last syllabe would sound extremely weird, hehehe.

Anyway, if he and his own family considered their own surname had to be stressed in the second syllabe, I think it has to be this way, no matter where this surname comes from. That's similar to cases in Argentina with German origins and with castilianized surnames, like Esnáider instead of Schneider. Everyone knows Esnáider comes from Schneider, but it has to be pronounced the way the surname owners do (ess-nye-derr), not sh-nye-da).


----------



## Jazztronik

speaking about pronunciations. I've heard in the UK some people pronounce 'day' like d-eh-y, like Americans do, but many others pronounce it close to 'die'. The same happens to 'like' or 'time', some say it close to the American way but a little more open, and some others extremely open like 'loike' or 'toime'. I think the most extreme case is the Cockney accent (similar to Australian in many cases), but which other places in the UK use this pronunciation and which ones the other one closer to BBC English?


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## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> Has it moved on? You say it sounds posh, so I assume posh people still use it.


 
No, only a very tiny proportion of people, even amonst the poshest. The queen does from what I've heard.


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> I have heard some Brits pronunce it that way, but it didn't seem to be the standard pronunciation...



Definitely is. A friend of mine was an English language assistant for a year in Germany and he told me he used to pull his hair out trying to get the kids to pronounce "man" the right way. He said he told them to just pronounce it like "Mann" but he couldn't convince them!!


----------



## Outsider

Would you say that British television newscasters in general pronounce _man_ and _castle_ with the same kind of _a_?


----------



## timpeac

Outsider said:
			
		

> Would you say that British television newscasters in general pronounce _man_ and _castle_ with the same kind of _a_?


 
No, only northerners. Southerners pronounce the "a" of "castle" like "ah" when you go to the dentist.


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## Outsider

Well, I think that's the main point. Whether or not the _a_ in _cat_ and _man_ is pronounced as a near-open front unrounded vowel by most Englishmen, it is still pronounced differently from the _a_ in _castle_. It is this difference which I believe foreign students of English and their teachers attempt to reproduce (not always with much success, I'm willing to concede).

On the other hand, to my ears the German _a_ in _Mann_ sounds like the English _a_ in _man_, _pronounced with a Scottish accent_, but the Scottish pronunciation sounds different from what I'm used to hearing in the British media. So, I'm not sure I agree with you that they are the same.


----------



## deafen11

I think you'll find that the correct Spanish pronounciation of Picasso is in fact Picasso with the 'a' as in cat. 
For an example, find a clip of the Oscars last night when one of the make-up artists for Pan's Labyrinth thanked Picasso in her speech.
The American pronounciation always gets on my nerves.


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## nuri148

thrice said:


> they said that if you were to pronounce it properly in Britain like a native Spanish speaker would, you could come across as being pretentious
> <snip>
> I think some people intentionally pronounce foreign words incorrectly for fear of being laughed at and thought of as full of it.



This is so sadly true. This miserable attitude does nothing but keeping people from learning other languages, making them feel it's some sort of snob thing to do. 
I'm from Argentina and there people is pretty open to foreign words (even a tad too much: I hate it when shops advertise "Sale" instead of "Liquidación"), and correctly (or almost) pronounce _lunch_, _buffet-froid, jogging, peeling, paillettes, démi-glace_, and basically all celebrities' names. 
In Spain, though, where I lived for two years, I -and my husband-was sistematically got that "you-are-so-pretentious" look when we spoke foreing words or names commonly used in language and which the Spaniards massacre marcilessly: /espEEderman/ (Spiderman) /OOm-fray/ (Humphrey) Bogart, /ball-IT-eh/ (Woolite(tm)) and so on. 

As for the Picasso debate, I think the correct pronounciation is somewhat not as shot as cat, yet nos as long as castle. Either way, I don't mind the "ah", what ticks me is when they say "Picassow" making the o like in "no" when it's a pure sound, like in "saw"


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## winklepicker

1) In defence of British English speakers, another reason we do not say fon Hoke, fon Ayk, RrrahkmanEEnoff, (or even Paree, Lijboa, Noo York or Moskva!) is because it would be deeply pretentious. US proponents of consistency please back off: how do you rationalise _Kansas/Arkansaw_?  

2) If the foreros on this thread can come to an agreed pronunciation of Picasso I promise always to pronounce it that way (as I skate on the surface of hell!).

3) We do care. There is the Oxford BBC Guide to Pronunciation : The essential handbook on the spoken word - review here. And this BBC page is helpful in explaining how we get to where we get to.

4) As for _man = Mann_, to my ear Thomas _Mann_ is _Munn_, as is Scots _man._

5) My own local offerings: Meopham (meppam), Trottiscliffe (trosly), Wrotham (rootam), Cowden (cow-den), and many lovely others...


----------



## Porteño

No, Brioche, it is pronounced quite differently. In most of Argentina and Uruguay, they use 'River Plate' Spanish or Castellano where the 'll' is pronounced something like a soft 'j', very difficult to describe. The same applies to the 'y' in 'yo', for example.


----------



## Armchair_linguist

Interesting to see this thread kept alive for so long - but it is an interesting topic, anyways...
Seriously, I have to wonder if a bit of colonial mindset isn't at work here - I get this feeling every time I watch the BBC. They tend to pronounce most French and German names the proper (native) way - though these names aren't exactly easy for an outsider. e.g., Jaques Chirac. On the other hand, despite ruling over the Indian subcontinent for a century, these chaps still want to pronounce 'Punjab' as 'poonjawb'. Even the guys reporting from within India. Now, come on! Indian spelling is not always perfect, but how else would you spell 'Punjab'? (I am not from Punjab, by the way - I just picked some example at random).
On the other hand, people of foreign ancestry, but now working for the BBC have to pronounce THEIR OWN NAMES in an anglicized fashion!
I can't help feeling that a bit of colonial superiority (try saying 'superiority' in the British style - it's so cool  ) is still at play here - it's nothing to do with how difficult or easy the foreign proper nouns themselve are!


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## James Brandon

I am puzzled by the idea that the correct pronunciation of Picasso in Spanish would be with the /a/ as in English "cat", i.e. /Kaet/ in phonetics - since the /ae/ sound, to the best of my knowledge, does not exist in Castilian!... Does the contributor mean that this is the correct pronunciation in English? As for the Castilian pronunciation, I am not sure I understand what it is supposed to be, bearing in mind the fact that 'Picasso' is not a Castilian name but a name of French/Catalan origin, if I understood earlier posts correctly. 

As for the pronunciation of 'foreign' names in English, the trend is clearly, in the UK today, including on BBC, to pronounce them in the way that an educated British person (there are still a few here and there) believes those foreigners pronounce it. As a result, instead of the natives' pronunciation (be it a European or non-European city, etc.), and instead of the 'traditional' Imperial/British pronunciation, one gets a 3rd type, which is neither one, nor the other, but one that is pleasing to the politically correct brigade. 

Pronunciation does not arise in a vaccum. Certain names of, say, French cities or regions are known to an English-speaker because one is going back centuries (e.g.: regions that have an English name, such as 'Burgundy', often linked to the wine trade or medieval times, when half of France or more was under English rule, at one stage...). It is perfectly understandable that placenames in India would be pronounced in the way familiar to British speakers, and that is, in the main, harking back to the days of the Raj, because that is when that part of the world became first known to British colonialists, officials, merchants, soldiers, etc. This is just the way language evolves. The rest is academic and belongs to the re-writing of history.

Otherwise, British people ought to demand that every Frenchman say 'London' instead of 'Londres', or 'Canterbury' instead of 'Cantorbéry' - those cities have French versions of their names because they are familiar to French people, going back centuries, and also due to geographical proximity. To blame it all on colonialism is plain whinging of the worst kind.


----------



## winklepicker

James Brandon said:


> To blame it all on colonialism is plain whinging of the worst kind.


Hooray!


----------



## xarruc

> Yet a general disregard for the pronunciation of local place names I consider to be a bit disrespectful.


I totally disagree. When I speak in English my mouth forms a different shape to when I speak Spanish, which is different to when I speak Catalan. The rhythm is also different. When I speak in English I anglicise all Spanish or Catalan words to a compromise between the correct pronunciation for a local and what rolls off the tongue in English. When I speak Spanish or Catalan I do the same with English words. I find I am understood better that way. I find it more natural.

To pronouce San Feliu de Guixols as a Catalan would, in the middle of a conversation in English would sound unnatural and pretensious. Hence I say San Fel-oo rather than San Fal-ee-oo, but would never pronounce it San Fel-oo when speaking Catalan. It's not ignorance, nor disrespect, simply a natural phenomeon. You could argue that just as Londres is London, San Feliu is San Feloo - different words in different languages for the same thing.


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## James Brandon

The issue of how to pronounce placenames is very sensitive because it is an issue of ownership: I own it, hence I name it. If you name it (differently), and/or pronounce it differently (and your own way), you are taking away from me, what is mine. 

The debate quickly becomes dogmatic and pretentious, and intensely political. It has nothing to do with language (as previous post stresses) and all to do with pride and politics. 

The re-naming of placenames follows the same logic: St Petersburg is once more St Petersburg because Leningrad was a Bolshevik name, and Communism has collapsed in Russia. St Petersburg was itself not a typically Russian name, but an imperial construct of a concept/word - i.e. it reflected the Russian tsar's desire to mimic Prussia/Germany. 

Hence, Bombay is now Mumbai, and the ongoing debate over pronunciation. 

This is all fine, provided people realise this is not about language per se, but about power and politics. There is no way that is "right" or "wrong" linguistically. It has to do with history. But, of course, he (or she) who names, has power. (The parents choose the name of their child...)


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## Brioche

xarruc said:


> I totally disagree. When I speak in English my mouth forms a different shape to when I speak Spanish, which is different to when I speak Catalan. The rhythm is also different. When I speak in English I anglicise all Spanish or Catalan words to a compromise between the correct pronunciation for a local and what rolls off the tongue in English. When I speak Spanish or Catalan I do the same with English words. I find I am understood better that way. I find it more natural.
> .



When I speak English, I pronounce Berlin in the English way; when I speak French, in the French way; when I speak German, in the German way.

Ditto for Paris, .... and my own home town.

And Maxiogee can say Baile Atha Cliath if he likes, but I'll stick with Dublin.

Though I will admit to being irritated by people who have changed from Peking to Beijing, and then pronounce the j like a French j. It's jing [almost] like jingle bells.


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## winklepicker

xarruc said:


> To pronouce San Feliu de Guixols as a Catalan would, in the middle of a conversation in English would sound unnatural and pretentious.


Exactly right. There was once a BBC newsreader who tried to do exactly this, and was well and justly lampooned:

"Good evening and here is the news. In _Zeembaahbwaeay_ the president, Mr _Moogaahbaeay_..."


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## cirrus

Armchair_linguist said:


> Seriously, I have to wonder if a bit of colonial mindset isn't at work here - I get this feeling every time I watch the BBC. They tend to pronounce most French and German names the proper (native) way - though these names aren't exactly easy for an outsider. e.g., Jaques Chirac.


I disagree.  You will still find English people using old placenames eg saying Munich, Cologne.  If you say Muenchen, Koeln sounds plain daft if you are speaking English and don't get me started on people pronouncing copenhagen making the hagen rhyme with hargen.  

As far as people can manage foreign people's names they will at least have a bash.  I still cringe at how Spanish names are stressed but recognise that unless you speak the language it isn't always obvious where the emphasis lies. 

As for India you will find that modern usage tends to be use both the modern and colonial names eg Mumbai/ Bombay Chenai / Madras. The latter are used because people aren't always familiar with the new name. As people get used to it, I imagine the newer names will become the default not least as India's economy grows ever bigger and more important.


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## I.C.

xarruc said:


> Yet a general disregard for the pronunciation of local place names I consider to be a bit disrespectful.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally disagree.
Click to expand...

Feel free to do so.


> When I speak in English I anglicise all Spanish or Catalan words to a compromise between the correct pronunciation for a local and what rolls off the tongue in English.


 Yet if you don’t mind, I’ll nevertheless agree with this, at least as I understand it. I fail to see a contradiction.


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## James Brandon

As a matter of fact, policy choices are made regarding these issues at the BBC, from what I can see (or hear). The trend has clearly been to pronounce all names of people or places in the "local" way, as opposed to an English adaptation of it, and/or an anglicized form of the name, and/or old colonial/imperial names one might have been using. So, for editors at the BBC at any rate, there is a contradiction. In essence, indeed, there is a problem. 

But the Catalan/Spanish contributor gave obvious examples where one can see very clearly that, taken to its logical consequences, this politically correct view is simply preposterous and untenable. _Reductio ad absurdum_. And the pronunciation of Latin is yet another - related - subject that would deserve 25 Threads all by itself...


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## James Brandon

In fairness, what sounds comical and pretentious to Peter may sound quite 'natural' to Paul, and vice-versa. I believe most Americans find British English phonetics rather comical and pretentious, when referring to middle-class and upper-class speakers; and downright impenetrable, when the person speaking is working-class and/or has a strong regional accent!... (But American contributors will, no doubt, confirm this if they wish to do so. )

PS - I know social classes are not supposed to exist any more in the UK and it is bad, bad, bad, to even use those terms. But we haven't got all day to explain...


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## I.C.

James Brandon said:


> As a matter of fact, policy choices are made regarding these issues at the BBC, from what I can see (or hear). The trend has clearly been to pronounce all names of people or places in the "local" way, as opposed to an English adaptation of it, and/or an anglicized form of the name, and/or old colonial/imperial names one might have been using. So, for editors at the BBC at any rate, there is a contradiction. In essence, indeed, there is a problem.


If you met someone whose name does not have an established pronunciation in English and as far as phonetics are concerned would roll off your or any other Anglophones' tongue most naturally, but it came in a spelling that wasn’t complicated, yet deviating from what would be expected in English, how would you pronounce it?


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## jess oh seven

Outsider said:


> As a speaker of a Romance language who has listened to Spanish many times, here are my $0.02:
> 
> U.K. c*a*stle --> Yep, close enough to Spanish _a_ (although the aspirated consonant before it in this word makes it sound a little odd)
> U.S. c*a*stle --> Sounds more like a Spanish _e_, but is really a diphthong, to my ears
> U.K. c*a*t --> Nope, this is the weird one we have trouble pronouncing.
> U.S. c*a*t --> Identical to the _a_ in U.S. _castle_.


You can´t really generalise "UK" and "US" pronunciations of the letter A since they vary even through the two countries. Someone from the North of England is probably going to pronounce the A in castle completely differently from someone from London. I wish I had the phonetic alphabet font on here so I could show you.

But in relation to the original topic, it does hurt my ears when an English speaker pronounces Spanish or Portuguese words completely incorrectly. But then again it also hurts my ears terribly when Spanish or Portuguese speakers pronounce English words equally as badly. You can´t win, really. Nobody is going to have comprehensive knowledge of the pronunciation of all the languages in the world, so they adapt them into a familiar pronunciation pattern.


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## jess oh seven

Jazztronik said:


> speaking about pronunciations. I've heard in the UK some people pronounce 'day' like d-eh-y, like Americans do, but many others pronounce it close to 'die'. The same happens to 'like' or 'time', some say it close to the American way but a little more open, and some others extremely open like 'loike' or 'toime'. I think the most extreme case is the Cockney accent (similar to Australian in many cases), but which other places in the UK use this pronunciation and which ones the other one closer to BBC English?


Generally, the further you radiate out from London, the less "BBC-like" the pronunciations will be. The Cockney accent derives from the London area, but I can´t see many similarities pronunciation-wise with an Australian accent. They're both quite sort of "bouncy" though... that makes no sense, I know, but I can't think of another word to describe it. 

I have a phonetic chart of all the English vowels in most of the major British accents. I will try to scan it in at some point.


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## lizzeymac

Real Name said:


> I often think Americans don't hear things properly and go for what they think (completely wrongly) is cultured.  Take ballet for example.  We English pronounce it nearly like the French with equal stress on both syllables. Americans insist on saying ball-AY which is nothing like the french.  It sounds pretentious and comical to English ears.



That is an interesting if somewhat snarky-sounding assumption/generalization.   

While I think you may be correct in stating that most Americans pronounce it ball-AY, not all Americans do - many of us studied french & our teachers corrected us.  

I am under the impression that French is or has been until recently the most popular foreign language studied in school in the UK so that may be the reason that some residents of the UK  have a lovely French accent.

In America, a larger percentage of students take Spanish & speak it fairly well, and there is a strong Hispanic/Latino sub-culture making most  Americans reasonably familiar with some basic Spanish phrases.  
With all due respect, hearing some residents of the UK pronounce "taco" or "macho" or "rellenos" leaves even us gringos gasping.  

-


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## James Brandon

To reply to I.C., I agree with your point 100% regarding the way that a PC BBC is trying to ape localized phonetics. This is precisely the point I was making: if you push this reasoning to its logical conclusion, it makes no sense, so you might as well desist. Yet, they, at the BBC, clearly stick to it. (Hence "BBC English" no longer makes any sense, as a concept - it stood for what is known as "RP" or "Received Pronunciation", in the main what features in the phonetics of words in dictionaries - because, of course, those phonetics are not neutral...)

A few rude or semi-rude remarks have been made about American English in this Thread, so I think it may be time to be rude about Australian English and cockney. The joke goes: 'Australian English sounds like cockney English (since most of them were convicts originally hailing from those parts), only with the mouth shut - that is because, as soon as they got off the boat, there were swarms of flies all around them.'


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## jess oh seven

lizzeymac said:


> With all due respect, hearing some residents of the UK pronounce "taco" or "macho" or "rellenos" leaves even us gringos gasping.
> 
> -


Hehehe, I second that. Add "jalapeños" to that list as well. Before coming to the UK, I´d NEVER heard anyone say djuh-LA-peh-noze. I nearly die everytime someone comes out with that!!


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## I.C.

James Brandon said:


> To reply to I.C., I agree with your point 100% regarding the way that a PC BBC is trying to ape localized phonetics.


Hmm, I'm not yet sure you agree with me. How would you pronounce it?


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## lizzeymac

User Name said:


> I'd have said this post was snarky-sounding lizzeymac not a harmless comment about ballet.   By the way I LOVE snarky, did you make it up just now?



I am glad to hear you meant as a harmless post because it sounded pretty classist to me.

I'm also glad snarky pleased you.

(Pause to giggle)

Snarky is an old-ish English (BE) expression.

(Seriously attempting to not to be snarky now)

"The adjective snarky is first recorded in 1906. It is from dialectal British snark, meaning 'to nag, find fault with', which is probably the same word as snark, snork, meaning 'to snort, snore'. (The likely connection is the derisive snorting sound of someone who is always finding fault.) Most dictionaries label snarky as "Chiefly British Slang." But for the last five or more years, it has become increasingly common in American publications, maybe ones infiltrated by British or Canadian writers and journalists."​
As to the other - I would never attempt to characterize a foxfirebrand post - especially as I feel that particular post is fairly even-handed & yet absolutely on target about "Nicaragua" - just thinking about it gives me the heeby-jeebies.

-


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## I.C.

James Brandon said:


> The joke goes: 'Australian English sounds like cockney English (since most of them were convicts originally hailing from those parts), only with the mouth shut - that is because, as soon as they got off the boat, there were swarms of flies all around them.'


Youtube hosts a sketch, it can be found searching for “monty python bruce”.


James Brandon said:


> To reply to I.C., I agree with your point 100% regarding the way that a PC BBC is trying to ape localized phonetics. This is precisely the point I was making: if you push this reasoning to its logical conclusion, it makes no sense, so you might as well desist.


That does mean you would pronounce this person’s name (whom you’ve been introduced to) as you yourself see fit, according to an English pronunciation of the spelling, even if that significantly changes the original phonetics, which to adhere to you'd have no problem, doesn’t it?


James Brandon said:


> But, of course, he (or she) who names, has power. (The parents choose the name of their child...)


You’ve just assumed power over me. 

I’ll tell you what at least according to my experience Germans and are likely to do, and this is concerning personal, not place names.
Paul and Peter also are German names, but the vast majority of Germans I know will pronounce an English Peter or Paul as English as they can. Mary will not become Marie.

If someone tells me her name is Anica, “c” as in “pizza”, then I’ll do as good as I can to match her pronunciation of her name. Getting it wrong, nevertheless, is another matter. I’ll try not to call her Annika and if I do so out of accident, I’ll gladly accept her correction. If someone’s name is Cem, then I’ll try to match his pronunciation of the name. How the spelling for the same phonetics would be in German does not concern me. Not to try I’d find very rude of me, ignorant and condescending.

Regarding place names, of course there are established pronunciations and some sounds would not fit into the speech flow of most (to explain what I personally do there would take longer). But most or all Germans I know who know of the English pronunciation of Edinburgh or Worcester will make an attempt to match it. Depending on setting (family dinner, say) someone who does not may be corrected by others. Not trying to get it right may be viewed as ignorant or uneducated. 

Cultural issues involved?


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## jess oh seven

User Name said:


> Ooh another one that really really bugs English people is the American Al-oom-in-um. A whole syllable is missed! As in aeroplane - syllable gone - poof!


Well, both those words are spelled differently in AE too! 

Aluminum
Airplane

Therefore, there aren't any syllables missed!


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## James Brandon

IC appears to believe my position is untenable and intolerable, but I am not sure what he thinks my position is... Anyway, I understand the general point that one will try (and, perhaps, should try) to adapt to the phonetics recommended by the locals. (If someone says to you: 'By the way, my first name is not pronounced XYZ but ABC', you would be rather churlish if you carried on calling that person 'XYZ'.) 

What I meant was that attempts at 'localizing' placenames' pronunciation systematically - even when there is a perfectly well-known anglicized form of it for historical reasons - are generally futile at best, hypocritical at worst. Should we stop calling Koln 'Cologne', as do the French? 

In other words, there has to be compromise and common sense, or else you will have to re-write history, change phonetics, and modify maps across the world - that is called totalitarianism. (Rhetorical effect, here.) 

As for foreign-sounding words, if you have not got a clue how to pronounce them and you are English, you just do your best. When they are too awkward, you give up: 'Peter What's-his-name rang the other day.' Such is life. 

PS If I do not respond to comments in real time, it will be because I am having to do a spot of remunerated work.


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## Pedro y La Torre

foxfirebrand said:


> Americans say Nick-a-ROG-wah, not really too bad.  Brits say Knicker-RAGG-you-wah.  Bloody atrocious!  Clean up your act _now_, you people!



Nick-a-rog-wah sounds terrible, I know Americans have trouble with pronouncing some words correctly but really....

Seriously however when it comes to countries I'm afraid Americans don't have a leg to stand on.

You (by you I mean what I've generally heard in the American media) pronounce Qatar as Cutter  , Iraq as I-Raq , Tunisia as Tunisha , Saudi Arabia as Sawdi Arabia and the list goes on.....

I also heard the movie Babel being pronounced ba-bel at the Oscars  It sounded absolutely atrocious, the correct way of saying it is bay-bel.

As regards to British pronounciation I've noticed they tend to pronounce Doherty as Docherty, I'm at a loss to explain it. There is no c sound in the name.


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## JamesM

> I also heard the movie Babel being pronounced ba-bel at the Oscars  It sounded absolutely atrocious, the correct way of saying it is bay-bel.


 
Actually, this is a good example within the context of this discussion. I would agree that it should be "BAY-ble", with the accent on the first syllable, not the same as "babble". It's certainly the way I'd expect to hear "The Tower of Babel" pronounced in church. The people who actually made the film, though, pronounced it "bah-BELL", with the accent on the second syllable, presumably because that is the way the word is pronounced in their language. 

So which do you choose when referring to the film - the anglicized "BAY-ble" or the pronunciation the filmmakers used?  I don't think there will ever be a way that everyone will agree on pronouncing everything. We all make our choices and live with the ragging from one faction or another.


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## winklepicker

Pedro y La Torre said:


> they tend to pronounce Doherty as Docherty, I'm at a loss to explain it. There is no c sound in the name.


I can explain it _(me sir, me sir!)._ There are some Doherty families in the UK who pronounce themselves Dockerty. (Maybe they've just caved in, but there it is.)

Mind you, we Brits won't take any stick shillelagh from the Irish on this one, though: Irish spelling is even weirder than ours.  Shelagh for Sheila? Aoife for Eva? Tuathmumain...


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## Anglo-Greek

I haven't read this whole thread, but I read on the first page a report of British people pronouncing "tortilla" like it's spelt. I live in England and have never heard anyone pronounce it any way other than "tor-TEE-ya". If someone were to pronounce it otherwise I would imagine they would get ridiculed.
A monolingual English friend of mine once pronounced fajita with an English-sounding j, and he was much ridiculed (in my experience British people usually pronounce it "fa-HEE-ta"). That same friend once pronounced "centimes" like "sent-imes" with the last syllable rhyming with "times", much to my amusement.
As for "croissant", British people usually pronounce it relatively Frenchly, though sometimes with English "nt" at the end. Occassionally people pronounce it more like it's spelt.

I would say that to pronounce words like these as they would be in their language of origin wouldn't come across as pretentious, but to pronounce Paris like it is in French definitely would.

I am a proponent of using endonyms and native pronounciations, for example pronouncing "México" like "Mehico", but it often doesn't feel natural. Though I pronounce "ll" as a "y" sound if a word looks Hispanic.

I try hard with Italian words, but I find it awfully confusing. For example, I used to pronounce the surname of famous guitarist John Petrucci as "Pet-rush-ee", but now often say it more like "Pet-rutch-ee".

I am often suprised by poor pronunciation on TV, you'd think they'd learn to pronounce things properly if they're going to be broadcast saying them across the world.


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## Porteño

When referring to people's names, I fully agree that one should try and emulate the owner's pronunciation of their name as a matter of simple courtesy. If you don't know how they say their name, well you just have 'have a go'. How could a foreigner (or even many English people, for that matter) ever be expected to know that Mr. Featherstonhaugh calls himself Mr. Fanshaw?

Moving to regional pronunciation, I once remember desperately seeking the 'loo' in a particular Cornish pub whose owner was a bit of a joker. I found the 'Ladies' easily enough but I wanted the 'Gents'. The only other sign I could see over a door was one that read 'yer tez', which of course meant absolutely nothing at all. However, after a few minutes anxious thinking I realised that it was a joke and actually read ´'Here It Is' - Blessed relief was close to hand! The Cornish accent can be quite difficult at times.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Anglo-Greek said:


> I am a proponent of using endonyms and native pronounciations, for example pronouncing "México" like "Mehico", but it often doesn't feel natural.



I disagree. Mexico is a proper noun in English and has it's own pronunciation. It would be like saying Danish speakers should pronounce England as it is in English simply because it's spelled the same. 

Besides that, the mehico pronunciation is mostly used in English to make fun of Mexicans (and Spanish speakers in general) by comedians.


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## I.C.

> IC appears to believe my position is untenable and intolerable, but I am not sure what he thinks my position is...


Well, I.C. asked James Brandon a question to clarify it, what he'd do if he met someone who..., and his reply was:


> To reply to I.C., I agree with your point 100% regarding the way that a PC BBC is trying to ape localized phonetics. This is precisely the point I was making: if you push this reasoning to its logical conclusion, it makes no sense, so you might as well desist


What was the ignorant I.C. to conclude? (To me “ape” doesn’t really sound complimentary and I suspect “PC” here may not be meant nicely, either. I’ll especially point out that even without making use of a plethora of smilies here, I'm not upset in any way,  I’m just stating stuff.) 

I'd expect of newsreaders they make an attempt to pronounce people's names correctly in the same way as I'd expect people make an honest try to pronounce the name of the person in front of them. My own name gets butchered all the time (though not on the news, of course), doesn't bother me. I don’t mind the name, but for me it’s just a tag, to myself I have none. But I know others who see that differently and in my opinion it isn’t so nice to give someone a different name without asking, which changing the pronunciation radically in my opinion does. On the other hand, I thought I noticed some people get slightly annoyed, take ill when they would have to make an effort to memorise an unusual name. More often than not I either mention my name and offer a different, adopted one instead or I’ll offer an adopted one straightaway. I’d rather avoid correcting. Also prevents not reacting when someone calls me a completely different name that I may not recognise. But I’ll try to get other people’s names right and it's interesting to see who after I’ve said “just call me X” still makes an effort to speak my given name – which is easy. My experience has been, those who care get it right, those who don’t do not. 

Regarding place names, I would not expect newsreaders to pronounce foreign place names just as the locals do when this would neither fit into the flow of their speech (that might differ) nor be understood by their audience. I don’t expect they radically change names that have a strong history, like Munich or Cologne, say. 
For those not yet firmly established place names which in their English versions can't be pronounced close to the local twang without turning them into tongue twisters, I would wish readers will try to settle for a comprise that takes local pronunciation into consideration. By "general disregard" I meant a practice that when forming a pronunciation for people's names (which I consider to be particularly touchy) or place names without a strong history wouldn't give a damn how those natives call that guy or thing. 
Personally I also don't mind if traditional spellings or pronunciations are edged closer to local ones, but it may be useful not to do this all too radically. 

If I were to give directions how to get to Quedlinburg, say, and an Anglophone didn’t have an ear for languages or I suspected a German pronunciation would make things harder for him, I’d anglicise the name to the point of total distortion if only that helps. Other circumstances, other guidelines.


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## James Brandon

I do not disagree fundamentally with any of the points made by IC. What I was trying to say was basicallly that, yes, in theory, it would be nice if no one ever mispronounced a foreign-sounding name out of indifference or ignorance. But, in practice, it is simply impossible to expect a native of Burma to know how to pronounce every placename in Denmark in the Danish way, or vice versa. So, people will try, and society decides where to draw the line. 

Meanwhile, PC commentators maintain - against all the evidence - that it is desirable and possible to pronounce "in the local way" every placename and person's name under the sun. Sometimes, one needs to move away from "what should be" and into the realm of "what is (feasible)". When attempts at pronouncing placenames in a "local" way, say, on BBC, are manifestly silly and dogmatic, I believe the verb "to ape" is rather apposite. I make no apology. Good night.


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## Porteño

I seem to recall that some years ago, around the middle 50s, I think,  a criterion was established (possibly by the BBC) that place names in the Britsh Isles should be pronounced in accordance with the way the local inhabitants pronounced them, much in the same way as personal names. However, somebody screwed up and for quite a few years the BBC and the British public in general, pronounced Cirencester as 'sissester' until someone discovered that the locals actually called it 'sirencester'. I imagine that somebody had been thinking along the lines of Worcester (pronounced 'wuster'). It drives me nuts when I hear some of our friends from across the ditch saying 'warcester'!


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## lizzeymac

Porteño said:


> I seem to recall that some years ago, around the middle 50s, I think,  a criterion was established (possibly by the BBC) that place names in the Britsh Isles should be pronounced in accordance with the way the local inhabitants pronounced them, much in the same way as personal names. However, somebody screwed up and for quite a few years the BBC and the British public in general, pronounced Cirencester as 'sissester' until someone discovered that the locals actually called it 'sirencester'. I imagine that somebody had been thinking along the lines of Worcester (pronounced 'wuster'). It drives me nuts when I hear some of our friends from across the ditch saying 'warcester'!




Hmm...   This is a good example of the regional differences in America - I live in the Northeast  - the region is also known as "New England. " We have a couple of Worcesters & all the Worcesters I know of are a variation of "Wuster."  

I am not sure how many Worcesters there are outside of "New England."  I think it is possible some of the mispronunciations you have heard may be a result of the speaker being unfamiliar with the spelling even thought they  may have heard the name. If you lived 2200 miles from the nearest Worcester, say in Tempe Arizona, you might never have read the name on a map. 
Just as a reference, the distance from Tempe Arizona, USA to Worcester Massachussetts, USA is about the same as from London, UK to Alexandria, Egypt. 

The most well known Worcester in the NE is on the coast north of Boston & it is pronounced "Wustuh" by locals.

I imagine Americans in the NE would be more familiar with place names originating from England just as people in Texas, New Mexico, Callifornia, Montana, Utah, Florida, Arizona, etc., are more familiar with Native American & Spanish origin names, and people from the Midwest & north Midwest are familiar Native American & French origin names.

Let's not forget fabulous BE words like Featherstonehaugh, which I believe is pronounced Foon (?)


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## James Brandon

The last 2 posts are especially relevant, in my view, because the issue of how to pronounce in the "local" way also affects English itself, as the examples illustrate - in other words, it is not just about being contemptuous of 'foreign-sounding' names. 

English, like French, and unlike Spanish, does not provide spelling that is a good guide to phonetics. This applies to placenames (and surnames) in one's own country. 

In England, if you have not heard it said before, how would you know how to pronounce 'Lewes' (in Kent, I believe)? (It is pronounced /'lu:-is/ in 2 parts, with the 's' sounded at the end, like 'Lewis', the name, and not like 'loos', which is just as nice for the locals. "I live in loos" would not be very appealing...)


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## xarruc

> Cirencester as 'sissester' until someone discovered that the locals actually called it 'sirencester'.


I've heard this particular debate in terms of people coming from the hard vs soft school of latin. Not that that means anything to me. If anyone can answer.....

Besides the locals say soy-ran-sester, or did at least when I lived there.



> In England, if you have not heard it said before, how would you know how to pronounce 'Lewes' (in Kent, I believe)? (It is pronounced /'lu:-is/ in 2 parts, with the 's' sounded at the end, like 'Lewis', the name, and not like 'loos', which is just as nice for the locals. "I live in loos" would not be very appealing...)


 
Well the people in Looe seem to not mind!


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## Bonjules

Hola,
You can find examples for this without end.
It is not only a British/US problem, it is truly world-wide.
Case in point:
I am/was looking all over the island of Puerto Rico for a certain type lawn tractor, a 'Gravely', a well known American make.
After finally localizing the only business that supposedly deals with them over here, this happened to me yesterday:
 I explained to the ladies what I was looking for in Spanish, but, naturally, said 'Gravely'.
They did not understand for a long tome and I was ready to leave until it dawned on one of them. 'He is talking about a 'Gra-ve-lly', on of them said, just like the French
'grave'.
Now this is a business, and most folks who are likely to look for one of these machines come from the US, knowing them by their common name...
One would think the manager would have taken the time
to explain to them what it sounds like in English!
No such luck.


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## timpeac

Bonjules said:


> 'He is talking about a 'Gra-ve-lly', on of them said, just like the French
> 'grave'.


 
How is 'Gra-ve-lly' like the French 'grave'? What do you mean? 


Bonjules said:


> Now this is a business, and most folks who are likely to look for one of these machines come from the US, knowing them by their common name...
> One would think the manager would have taken the time
> to explain to them what it sounds like in English!


 
What's its common name - and what does it sound like in English?

I'm sorry but I'm lost by your anecdote here.


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## lizzeymac

The "a" in _grave (French)_ is "ah"
The "a" in _grave (English)_ is "ay"

I have only heard the tractor called a Grah-vell-y but that was by an Cajun in Lousiana.

-


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## timpeac

lizzeymac said:


> The "a" in _grave (French)_ is "ah"
> The "a" in _grave (English)_ is "ay"
> 
> I have only heard the tractor called a Grah-vell-y but that was by an Cajun in Lousiana.
> 
> -


Oh, I see now - it's the quality of the "a" that was meant.


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## curly

Wouldn't gravely with an "ay" sound be gravelly meaning in a grave manner? And gravelly with an "ah" mean gravel the noun,like the little stones you find on a path?


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## James Brandon

As I understand, what Bonjules said was that he pronounced the name of the piece of equipment in the English way (/ei/ sound) but the Puerto-Rican shop assistant did not understand. You would expect the locals to pronounce the word in a Spanish-sounding way, but Bonjules said the way they pronounced it was French-sounding. In any case, they did not understand the trade name as pronounced in an English/American way in the mainland US. Come to think of it, the flat /a/ sound in Spanish would indeed be similar to a French /a/ here, so it would have been as much a Castilian pronunciation as a French one. (The /a/ sound in 'Castilia' or 'Valencia' in Spanish is similar to the /a/ sound in French words 'Castille' or 'Valence'...)


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## Gwennhadu

Hi
It was stated in the original post that in British English "they" tend to anglicise names.
Well, I'd say that's just but natural. Anyone, native speaker of any language, would pronounce names the way they tend to pronounce any other word, according to their language.
And, as it's been already pointed out, especially a journalist would rather get the message across than show off their perfect pronunciation of a foreign name...
By the same token, I may give in to the temptation of complaining about how annoyed I am (as an Italian and Spanish speaker, and half French in nationality) that in American English "they" tend to americanise every single name they come across.
Or maybe they are really convinced they are pronouncing names the
"proper", "native" way...
How would I want to call this? Cultural imperialism or...?
But, of course, I know better than expressing such views...

P.S. No offense meant to Americans here, I have family throughout North America...


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## lizzeymac

I am getting the feeling that you might prefer the reason to be cultural imperialism.  

Alternately (& unfortunately), I suggest that for Americans in areas lacking a significant Italian-American population - there are many such barren wastelands in my country - the cause of the "bad" pronunciation ranges from a lack of exposure to spoken Italian (other than The Sopranos on TV) to not giving "native pronunciation" much thought as long as the waiter at the restaurant understands "lasagna."  I really think the pronunciation that offends you is, for the most part, entirely passive & unconscious, and not based in disrespect. 

Now, is that better or worse?   

-


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## James Brandon

A lot of it is due to pure phonetics: if a sound does not exist in your own language, you cannot hear it, hence you cannot reproduce it... Think of the "hard TH" in English, which exists in English (thatcher, theft, theory, etc.) and in Spanish as spoken in Spain (Zaragoza, zapatos, etc.). A French native speaker, for instance, will find it almost impossible to replicate, simply because the sound does not exist in French. This is not cultural imperialism, but phonetic and linguistic limitations, much of the time.


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## Gwennhadu

Hi 
Na, I don't care about the imperialism thingy, 
not in this context, anyway IoI
I am not offended at all.
I was offended on reading the first post.
Maybe you didn't read the rest (which is too long anyway...)
Mine was just a reply to the original post, which I find...I can't find a proper word...
And actually, it's endearing when a foreigner pronounce a word in Spanish or Italian in their curious way, really.
So, it's not better nor worse. It's not an issue to me.


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## Gwennhadu

I notice people are NOT reading my post carefully...
I am not talking about Imperialism...
Please read the original post that triggered the whole discussion
to understand my reply before judging...
Thank you


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## James Brandon

Point taken! The theme of 'cultural imperialism' (or not) runs right through this Thread, so that is also why contributors will have referred to it. 

It is amusing that the 1st post blamed the BBC for such 'cultural imperialism'. As I have pointed out, in recent years (probably the last 15 to 25 years...), the BBC has actually been bending over backwards to try and adjust to 'local' pronunciations, particularly of placenames. So, the BBC is not guilty, if 'guilty' is the right word in this respect. 

That contributor must have been thinking of the BBC 50 years ago. Regional British accents are all the rage on the BBC World Service, now. Also, many news readers are not British but Canadian, or from other English-speaking countries, on BBC WS. Hence the demise of 'BBC English'. All this despite the fact the BBC is funded by British tax-payers in Britain, not by Canadians, Australians or others...


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## Gwennhadu

So, finally we agree on something...
What I meant is that I am not accusing anyone of colonialism
or imperialism just because of their pronunciation )unlike the first contributor)...I was only being sarcastic...
Hope that is clear by now


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## James Brandon

I think we are all agreed on this! Something to celebrate!...


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## Bonjules

curly said:


> Wouldn't gravely with an "ay" sound be gravelly meaning in a grave manner? And gravelly with an "ah" mean gravel the noun,like the little stones you find on a path?


 
Sorry for confusing everyone. It was just like lizzeymac
explained it, the open ahhh, the 'true vowel'  'a' as in the Romance languages and German.
The 'a' in gravel is still something else, more like the a in 'hat', or the German 'umlaut' a (with 2 dots on top).
The point was: Changing a vowel  like that alters the word completely. In a business that relies on name recognition - how many customers did they lose, because they didn't even realize what one was talking about? But it's the same thing IMO, a certain laziness to
not want to go through the trouble of pronouncing foreign names or places correctly which seems pretty universal. Exacerbated by 'superior' attitudes or not.


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## mrbilal87

This is an interesting post. Apparently according to the original poster, anglicizing the pronunciation of words borrowed from foreign languages is not a common practice in the US. In Canada it's actually pretty common among some speakers, including myself. Out of habit I myself tend to anglicize the pronunciation of words borrowed from foreign languages. For example, "Pi-kah-so" instead of "Pi-koh-so"; "Ko-lo-rah-do" instead of "Ko-lo-roh-do." Could our accents really be that different despite how geographically close we are?


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## Pnevma

I tend to say Colorado like you, but my mom almost stresses the "a" (as in "off") sound. I think the Anglicization is rather ubiquitous, insofar as it is done everywhere. I think the poster tends to hear British broadcasters anglicize more than American broadcasters, if I am not mistaken.


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## mrbilal87

Pnevma said:


> I tend to say Colorado like you, but my mom almost stresses the "a" (as in "off") sound. I think the Anglicization is rather ubiquitous, insofar as it is done everywhere. I think the poster tends to hear British broadcasters anglicize more than American broadcasters, if I am not mistaken.



I never really thought about any of this before but as I do I actually think Americans in general tend to anglicize less than Canadians do as well, according to what I've noticed as I listen to news broadcasts from the US.

For example:
Canada Pass-tah vs. US Paw-sta
Canada Ham-mass vs. US Haw-moss
Canada Jaah-vah vs. US Jaw-va

And another one I noticed:
In Canada we generally say "pro-cess" while in the US I usually hear proh-cess.


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## mplsray

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Nick-a-rog-wah sounds terrible, I know Americans have trouble with pronouncing some words correctly but really....
> 
> Seriously however when it comes to countries I'm afraid Americans don't have a leg to stand on.
> 
> You (by you I mean what I've generally heard in the American media) pronounce Qatar as Cutter  , Iraq as I-Raq , Tunisia as Tunisha , Saudi Arabia as Sawdi Arabia and the list goes on.....


 
Given the rationale for your objection to the pronunciations of the other country names you mention above, it's ironic that you object to the "cutter" pronunciation of Qatar.

According to Brendan I. Koerner's article "How Do You Pronounce 'Qatar'?" in the online magazine Slate, "The most accurate English estimate [for the correct pronunciation of 'Qatar'] is something halfway between 'cutter' and 'gutter.'"

A Cornell University Web page here goes into even more detail.

What we can conclude from these sources is that the "cutter" pronunciation of Qatar is an attempt by speakers of English to copy the pronunciation of the people of Qatar themselves.

I have a Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, "principal copyright 1973," which doesn't have the "cutter" pronunciation. However, it does have the pronunciations "cotter," "gotter," and "gutter." That last pronunciation was another attempt to copy an Arab pronunciation of Qatar.


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## winklepicker

mplsray said:


> "The most accurate English estimate [for the correct pronunciation of 'Qatar'] is something halfway between 'cutter' and 'gutter.'"
> 
> I have a Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, which... does have the pronunciations "cotter," "gotter," and "gutter."


 See? This is why we anglicise them!


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## CarolSueC

I'm somewhat hesitant to respond since I'm the one who started this thread. I'm afraid I offended a lot of people without intending to. I was not referring to the ordinary person, who would not have knowledge of foreign pronunciations. And I was not thinking primarily of place names, many of which have recognized English forms. I was concerned that BBC newsreaders, whom I hear daily on BBC World Service, have access to a wonderful research department for pronunciation and yet continue to anglicize *personal names* and *names of organizations* even when the sounds involved in those names are common in English. (One early post informed me that the newsreaders can ignore the suggested pronunciations.) To me it is a matter of respect for the other person to try to pronounce the name as closely as possible to the way the individual does. 

I'm going to add a short item from National Public Radio, the closest thing we have to the BBC, which addresses pronunciation. Note that it mentions *being sensitive to local preferences. *

*You say Hez-BOH-lah, I say…*

July 26, 2006 · _Over the last couple of weeks, I've heard people on NPR saying the name of that guerrilla group a lot of different ways. Is it HEZ -boh-lah or HIZ-boh-lah? Hez-boh-LAH or hez-BOH-lah? I asked NPR reference librarian and pronunciation maven Kee Malesky about it. _
_<<Excess text removed - see the link below>>_
4:18 p.m. EST | 7-26-2006 | permalink 

One final comment on my unfortunate reference to colonialism: I remember many years ago speaking with an American friend who had spent two years in Kenya. I used the pronunciation "Keenya," and he replied, "So you pronounce it like the British do." Realizing that the people of that country would not use the long "e" sound, I have never pronounced it that way again.


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## Porteño

A very good point, CarolSuec. One thing I have noticed recently on BBC World TV is the habit of pronouncing a sort of throaty 'h' when saying names like 'Baghdad' which sounds extremely awkward and unlikely to be adopted, although certainly understood, by viewers. Quite honestly, I feel it it somewhat ridiculous and pretentious. What is wrong with a simple 'Bagdad', surely Arabic speakers will not be offended.

Interesting also about Kenya. As most Brits do, or did, I had always pronounced it 'Keenyah' until I went and spent some time there and learnt the pronunciation 'kenya'.


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## winklepicker

Porteño said:


> pronouncing a sort of throaty 'h' when saying names like 'Baghdad' which sounds extremely awkward... ridiculous and pretentious. What is wrong with a simple 'Bagdad'...


Agreed. On the other hand though, why do reporters say _Aff-ga-ni-stan_ when natives (often interviewed immediately afterwards!) always say clearly _Aff-ha-ni-stan_?





> ... I had always pronounced it 'Keenyah' until I went and spent some time there and learnt the pronunciation 'kenya'.


I think this is now almost universally adopted. I haven't heard _Keenyah_ for many years. It sounds quite 1950s!


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## cuchuflete

Let's compound the problem of how a British or other non-native should pronounce a place name, and try to avoid offense of any and all 'normals', let alone the oversensitive types.  A while back we had another thread about pronunciation of city names.  I believe the centerpiece was New Orleans.  Baltimore was also examined.
Both of those cities have more than one local, native pronunciation, and each of the local styles is different from the pronunciations most frequently used by outsiders from the same country.  What's a poor Brit to do with that?

Reporting from Bawlmer, or is that Báll tee more, or should one say Bal Tim Or, this is Robin Ludwig for BBC 4.


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## Porteño

Getting back to the basics of CarolSuecs original complaint, let's just consider the question of the BBC. What is its purpose? Simply to communicate mainly news to English speakers around the world. The programmes are not aimed at foreign, non-English speaking people so it seems perfectly logical that personal and place names should be pronounced in the anglicized form that the listeners can readily understand. This does not in any way imply a denigration of the original, but it simply the easiest means of communication to native speakers.

When one is listening to the news or related programmes one does not wish to be distracted by trying to figure out who or what they are reporting on when suddenly hit by an unfamiliar sounding word. 

Slightly diverging, but definitely relevant, is the use of regional accent newscasters. In the past the BBC used RP pronunciation, which I imagine was understandable to any native speaker regardless of the region or country from which he hailed. However, in their quest to be 'politically correct', the policy was changed and we have a wide variety of sometimes confusing accents reading the news. If some of these are difficult for a Brit to understand, heaven help the rest. 

They should remember that their only reason for existence is to communicate and for that very reason I believe the BBC should return to RP, which everybody can readily comprehend, provided it is not overly exaggerrated as it is by some members of the Royal Family. 

I want to be able to listen to the news without having to concentrate on trying to fathom out what the newsreader is saying.


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## Murphy

Porteño said:


> Interesting also about Kenya. As most Brits do, or did, I had always pronounced it 'Keenyah' until I went and spent some time there and learnt the pronunciation 'kenya'.


 
"As most Brits do, or did".  Really?  I've always pronounced it "Kenya" with the same "e" as in "Kent".  (I would never have dreamt of saying "Keent" )  However, I noticed a "posh" friend of mine pronounced it "Keenya", so I just figured it was due to the "class" difference.

And the only Brits I know that say, for example, "paasta" (long "a") instead of "pasta" (short "a") are the ones who are, or think they are, "posh".


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## Porteño

Well, Murphy, I was referring to how most people pronounced it back in the 50s when it was still a colony. At least in the SE of the UK.


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## James Brandon

I believe "Keenya" (with long "ee" sound) was the preferred pronunciation of White/British settlers in colonial Kenya. Today, I would say it sounds old-fashioned and/or upper-class. The more common pronunciation today, i.e. "Kenya" (as in "Kent") was perhaps introduced as an alternative at the time of independence, I don't know.

As for the BBC and accents, it is not accurate to say the BBC - we mean the BBC World Service here - is aimed at English-speakers around the world only (if one means people whose first language English is): a lot of English-language BBC WS programmes are listened to by non-native speakers. But, and that is where I agree totally with the contributor pointing this out, this is precisely why they ought to stick to conventional RP-style accents and avoid strong regional accents: not because the latter are bad or inferior; merely because learners of English in foreign countries, in the main, rightly or wrongly, learn RP-style English. The phonetics in every dictionary are those of RP, by the way!


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## Porteño

Perhaps you are right, James Brandon, if you are referring to the WS on radio. However, I do believe that 'BBC World' on TV is primarily aimed at native English speakers, be they from the UK, US, Australia, et al., rather than second language English speakers. I make this assertion based on the content of the programmes which on BBC World are more of interest to native speakers. The WS, by contrast airs what I would call more educational programmes. It's only my idea and I could be wrong. 

The sad thing is that you get more RP on Deutchewelle's English language programs than on BBC World.


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## Petrie787

I was tired of reading the great number of posts but from where i left off..

As an American, the "a" of castle _or_ of cat are not the same as the "a" of Picasso... I didn't think any English speaker would pronounce Picasso in any way besides "Pik-ah-so" but that just goes to show that even in the same language people don't always agree and understand why some pronounce words how they do.

Also, sometimes when people try to pronounce words in ways they would be in their languages of origin and they don't get it EXACTLY right, it is kind of embarassing so people just choose to say it in a way that anyone would understand.

Besides, words like cowboy and weekend are stolen from english to be used in French and they are not at all pronounced in the way they are in English, and very common words like cliché and naïve are stole from French and i would not interject a very french-inized pronunciation of those words into my everyday English.


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## winklepicker

Petrie787 said:


> As an American, the "a" of castle _or_ of cat are not the same as the "a" of Picasso... I didn't think any English speaker would pronounce Picasso in any way besides "Pik-ah-so" but that just goes to show that even in the same language people don't always agree and understand why some pronounce words how they do.


Yup. And we're inconsistent too:  AE speakers are _ass_holes; we are _arse_holes.


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## maxiogee

winklepicker said:


> Yup. And we're inconsistent too:  AE speakers are _ass_holes; we are _arse_holes.



This HE speaker agrees with both those statements!


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## mrbilal87

winklepicker said:


> Yup. And we're inconsistent too:  AE speakers are _ass_holes; we are _arse_holes.


 
Hehe we say "_arse_holes" here too.  I also agree about the inconsistency. In Canada we may anglicize some words but not others, but I would say that most words are anglicized.


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## The MightyQ

Does anyone think that there's a political dimension to this too? 
Is it a stretch to think that saying AY-rab and EYE-rak might be deliberately intended to wind people up?  
How else to explain why Bush mangles these words so consistently?
And let's not forget the apocryphal tale of Churchill's pronunciation of Nazi.
Isn't this fun?


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## maxiogee

The MightyQ said:


> Is it a stretch to think that saying AY-rab and EYE-rak might be deliberately intended to wind people up?




Why _not_ eye-rak  I live in eye-er-land, and I imagine that the mod of that name calls herself eye-reeny (I know that's how I pronounce it.).


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## mrbilal87

The MightyQ said:


> Does anyone think that there's a political dimension to this too?
> Is it a stretch to think that saying AY-rab and EYE-rak might be deliberately intended to wind people up?
> How else to explain why Bush mangles these words so consistently?
> And let's not forget the apocryphal tale of Churchill's pronunciation of Nazi.
> Isn't this fun?


 
I always viewed pronouncing Iraq as "eye-rak" as optional, even though in Arabic I think it's more like "ee-rok" and I tend to pronounce it "Ir-rak" myself, just as it looks. However, pronouncing "Arab" as "Ay-rab" strikes me as offensive and depreciative.


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## Petrie787

ay-rab? im not sure how that is offensive?... or for that matter how that would even be pronounced...


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## mplsray

The MightyQ said:


> Does anyone think that there's a political dimension to this too?
> Is it a stretch to think that saying AY-rab and EYE-rak might be deliberately intended to wind people up?
> How else to explain why Bush mangles these words so consistently?
> And let's not forget the apocryphal tale of Churchill's pronunciation of Nazi.
> Isn't this fun?


 
I think it unlikely that there is a political dimension to "AY-rab" and "EYE-rak," no. "AY-rab," was used for many years among Americans who had never met a single Arab. "EYE-rak" follows the pattern of "EYE-ran" and "EYE-talian": Merriam-Webster's Collegiate shows those two pronunciations to be standard variants, setting off "EYE-talian" with the label "also," meaning it is a noticeably less common pronunciation, but not doing so with "EYE-ran." For that matter, the Collegiate has "AY-rab" also, but precedes it by the usage label "dialect also."

Historically, there _was_ a political dimension in the US to the use by Southern segregationists of the word_  Nigra,_ which appears to have been an intentional distortion of the word _Negro,_ influenced by the word _ nigger._


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## panjandrum

This thread has stopped being a discussion of the pronunciation of foreign proper nouns and has become a general discussion on vowels around the world, offensive vs inoffensive labels, accents appropriate for non-native listeners ..............
Closed for refurbishment.


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