# Etymology of the Word Pan in Polish



## LilianaB

Maybe somebody knows the etymology of the words Pan/Pani - Polish words?
Thank you.


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## berndf

berndf said:


> _Pan_ in the sense of _lord, master_ is attested as of the 14th century and exists in other West Slavic languages as well (Czech, Slovak, Sorbian).



According to Wiktionary, the etymology before these earliest attestations is unknown.


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## LilianaB

Thank you , Berndf. Is is common that the etymology of certain words will be unknown?


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Thank you , Berndf. Is is common that the etymology of certain words will be unknown?


Yes.


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## L'irlandais

French influence on Polish dates from Napoleonic era.  So unlikely for etymology of possibly 14th century Polish word.
However can't rule out Latin, since it has had some influence on Polish since 9th century.


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## jazyk

From Český etymologický slovník (English translation below). It doesn't say much, but at least it seems to agree with Berndf's source.

pán, paní, panský, panstvo, panic, panictví, panna, panenka, panenský, panenství, panák, panáček, panáčkovat, panovník, panovat, opanovat, panoš. Stč. i hpán, luž., p. pan, v jsl. a vsl. jsou ekvivalenty jiné. Zsl. *gъpanъ (či *panъ) nemá jistý původ. Klíčovou otázkou pro rekonstrukci slova je, zda stč. h- je etymologické, či pouze protetické. Podoby stč. předložek ve spojeních se (h)pánem, ode (h)pána svědčí spíš pro *gъpanъ, jež se obvykle vykládá jako oslabená varianta k *županъ. Nepříliš pravděpodobný je výklad považující za prvotní psl. *panьji {paní}, domněle příbuzné s ř. pótnia, sti. pátnī tv., k tomu by pak bylo přitvořeno *panъ.

pán, paní, panský, panstvo, panic, panictví, panna, panenka, panenský, panenství, panák, panáček, panáčkovat, panovník, panovat, opanovat, panoš. In Old Czech there was also the word hpán, Lusatian, Polish pan, in South Slavic and East Slavic are equivalent to another ). West Slavic *gъpanъ (or *panъ) doesn't have a determined origin. The key question for the reconstruction of the word is whether Old Czech h- is etymological or only prothetic. The forms of Old Czech prepositions in conjunction with (h)pánem, from (h)pána, rather witness *gъpanъ, which is usually interpreted as a weakened variant of *županъ *. The interpretation that *panьji {paní}, purportedly related to Greek pótnia, Old Indic pátnī tv., to which *panъ was coined, is not very probable.


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## LilianaB

Could Pan be somehow related to pan, the Spanish or Latin for bread. Since it may come from the feudal dependence times, could it be an equivalent of _chlebodawca_, or maybe from church since people would often refer to God as chlebodawca, bread giver, and Latin was the language of the Catholic Church?


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## jazyk

> Could Pan be somehow related to pan, the Spanish or Latin for bread.


It is panis in Latin. More for your collection: Portuguese pão, Italian pane, French pain, Romanian pâine, Catalan pa.


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## LilianaB

How would bread giver be in Latin? My Latin is not that great, although I had it for many years, but I forgot a lot.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Could Pan be somehow related to pan, the Spanish or Latin for bread. Since it may come from the feudal dependence times, could it be an equivalent of _chlebodawca_, or maybe from church since people would often refer to God as chlebodawca, bread giver, and Latin was the language of the Catholic Church?


As Jazyk quoted:





jazyk said:


> The key question for the reconstruction of the word is whether Old Czech h- is etymological or only prothetic.


If this is not clear, all speculations would be idle.


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## jazyk

> How would bread giver be in Latin? My Latin is not that great, although I had it for many years, but I forgot a lot.


Do you mean breadwinner? Literally a bread giver would be donator panis, but this is odd. Maybe dominus, herus or possessor could translate breadwinner.


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## LilianaB

Thank you, Jazyk. Yes, I mean literally, and more precisely the way it was used by the Catholic Church, because I personally think the word comes from there.


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## LilianaB

In fact, I am sorry. I think Pan is God in Greek. This is just my lack of knowledge in this linguistic area. We have Pantheon, after all. This could be the possible etymology of the word.


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## jazyk

No, pan means all, everything in Greek. God is Theos.


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## Istriano

Pan doesn't sound Slavic at all.


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## aruniyan

LilianaB,


can these words from Latin be close? But i dont know Latin. 
Penance,
Paean,
Paenitentialis

anyone who knows Latin, does the word "punishment" related to the "Penance"?

[There is a Indian word "Pani" meaning "working under" or to "to Obey".]


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## jazyk

> Pan doesn't sound Slavic at all.


You should say this to Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, and Ukrainians. I hope I didn't forget anyone.


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## LilianaB

I absolutely agree, Istriano. It does not sound Slavic.


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## LilianaB

Hi, Jazyk. I though Pan meant God too in some contexts in Greek. Where does Pantheon come from? Would Pan, panis in Latin be somehow related to the Greek Pan, I meant the Latin for bread.


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## LilianaB

Yes, penance is related to punishment.


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## LilianaB

Hi, Jazyk, again. I think the word must have gotten into the Slavic languages possibly through Church.Through the Catholic Church, this is why it is absent from Russian, where Catholicism was not the national religion. it is somehow present in Belorussian and Ukrainian only as a borrowing from Polish, in my opinion. P.S> I think the Greek word Pan is a proper name: _Pan_ is only a god of shepards, right? And the _pan_ from _pantheon_ would come from whole?


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## jazyk

> Where does Pantheon come from?


All gods.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Jazyk, again. I think the word must have gotten into the Slavic languages possibly through Church.Through the Catholic Church, this is why it is absent from Russian, where Catholicism was not the national religion. it is somehow present in Belorussian and Ukrainian only as a borrowing from Polish, in my opinion. P.S> I think the Greek word Pan is a proper name: _Pan_ is only a god of shepards, right? And the _pan_ from _pantheon_ would come from whole?


The name of the god _Pan _is not related (at least not immediately) with _pan-_ as in _Pantheon_. The name of the God is related to Latin _panis _and _pastor_, English _food, fodder _and_ to feed_ and to OCS пасти. According to Wiktionary, the PIE origin is _*peh₂ - to protect_.


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## LilianaB

I am sorry, I am going a little bit in circles here, but this is also a way to arrive at the true meaning, or etymology, in this case. I am back to the hypothesis that Pan originated from panis, bread or food, as the feudal lord is often referred to as _chlebodawca_ in Polish, bread giver.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> I am sorry, I am going a little bit in circles here, but this is also a way to arrive at the true meaning, or etymology, in this case. I am back to the hypothesis that Pan originated from panis, bread or food, as the feudal lord is often referred to as _chlebodawca_ in Polish, bread giver.


So far we have only related _panis_ to _Pan_ but we haven't yet established any relationship whatsoever to Polish _pan_. What you say is pure speculation. To repeat what has been said before: We don't know whether the leading "h" in Old Czech is etymological or not.


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## LilianaB

Why do you think, Berndf, that the Czech h is so important. I do not think this situation was the same in Polish. I do not know, I have never studied Slavic philology. Why would the h be so important. Can you explain briefly. Thank you.


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## merquiades

> According to Aleksander Brueckner, a polish etymologist, _pan_ comes form _żupan_, a tax gathering officer or administrator in a given territory called a _żupania_.  The word was shortened to _pan_.  A _pan_ came to be in charge of a royal castle of that area. For example the castellan of Cracow was called Pan Krakowski. In colloquial language _pan_ extended to mean any powerful person in a position of authority.  1190 was the first recorded use in Czech.
> 'Pan' is a root word for verb _'panować'_ - to rule, _'państwo'_ - estate, realm, state.
> Due to both inflation of dignities and growing politeness turned into to the most common way to address any stranger by: _pan, pani, państwo_.


My summary from discussions on polishforums.com  There are lots of links in Polish that seem to give more information


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## LilianaB

Thank you Merquiades. this has been very interesting, however I do not find any of this convincing. There are discrepancies as far as locations, time periods and terms are concerned. Yes, Pan/Pani has become a common way of addressing people probably at the beginning of the 20th century or the end of the 19th. This is not how the common people were talking. I most dialects, such as Silesian for example still the 2nd person plural is used instead of Pan.Some people do not consider Silesian a Polish dialect but a separate language, but anyhow in many local variations of Polish, especially in the country the 2nd  person plural is used instead of Pan/Pani.


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## bibax

> The interpretation that *panьji {paní}, purportedly related to Greek pótnia, Old Indic pátnī _*tv.*_, to which *panъ was coined, is not very probable.


The abbreviation _*tv.*_ means "téhož významu" = _*of the same meaning*_, which is quite important.

According to Václav Machek, paní (from Protoslavic *panьji) is related to *potnia* (PIE *potnih2, Sanskrit patnī), Ancient Greek for "Mistress, Lady", title of a goddess.

Evolution: potn- > ponn- > pón- (o macron) > pan- > Protoslavic *panьji;

Protoslavic had: *gospodь - *panьji; later the masculine noun *panъ was newly created.

Believe it or not.


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## LilianaB

Hello, Bibax. Why didn't they use the form Pan/Pani until much later. Was the word pan or pani used in different contexts before the 14th century? I mean, with the meaning of a man or a woman? Is gospodъ related to it?


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## bibax

Sorry, I don't know, I only summarized the substantial facts about pan/paní in the Machek's etymological dictionary of the Czech language.


> Is gospod*ь* related to it?


According to Machek the Protoslavic *gospodь is from PIE *ghostis-potis (= lord of the guests/strangers), like Latin hospes (gen. hospitis = host, guest). The second part *potis is a masculine counterpart to *potni. Note that potis has no n. Thus pán is a later development from *panьji.


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## bibax

Btw, pán/paní is *ponas/ponia* in Lithuanian (perhaps loanwords from Polish?).


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## L'irlandais

LilianaB said:


> ...Was the word pan or pani used in different contexts before the 14th century? ...


Hello again LilianaB,
I was hoping you were going to answer that question, rather than be the one to pose it.  Why Latin for the etymology of this (possibly) 14th century Polish word. 
Christianity (and so Latin) became official in Poland around 966. Seems (to me) like a long lapse of time between the word's imagined introduction (in 966AD) & the earliest traces (13??AD).  Any particular reason to explain this, aside from a vague hunch?


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Why do you think, Berndf, that the Czech h is so important. I do not think this situation was the same in Polish. I do not know, I have never studied Slavic philology. Why would the h be so important. Can you explain briefly. Thank you.


The point the dictionary made is that if the "h" were etymological it would probably be a reflex of a lost first syllable *_žu-_ which would then alter the kind of roots we'd be looking for completely. The significance for Polish would be that since the word exist in all surviving West Slavic languages with consistent meanings, it is reasonable to assume it to be of common West Slavic origin unless there is concrete evidence to the contrary. Interestingly, this argument predicts the same etymon *_župan_ that Merquiades' source also proposes.

I am not a specialist on Slavic languages either, so I can't judge the validity of the argument; I can only explain the methodological structure of the argument as it is presented.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Thank you Merquiades. this has been very interesting, however I do not find any of this convincing. There are discrepancies as far as locations, time periods and terms are concerned. Yes, Pan/Pani has become a common way of addressing people probably at the beginning of the 20th century or the end of the 19th. This is not how the common people were talking. I most dialects, such as Silesian for example still the 2nd person plural is used instead of Pan.Some people do not consider Silesian a Polish dialect but a separate language, but anyhow in many local variations of Polish, especially in the country the 2nd  person plural is used instead of Pan/Pani.


I don't really understand the relationship with the question of the thread. You wanted to know the etymology of the word _pan_ and why it is used as a polite way the address people. Both questions are addressed by the source. Why is it relevant that many ordinary people don't use this polite form in everyday talk?


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## LilianaB

bibax said:


> Btw, pán/paní is *ponas/ponia* in Lithuanian (perhaps loanwords from Polish?).


Yes they are loans, nothing else but loans. I think only the nobelity was addressed this way in the past and all of them spoke Polish, although some spoke Lithuanian too in addition to Polish.


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## LilianaB

Thank you Berndf, for both answers. Regarding the second one, I was perhaps not too clear. I just was not convinced by the dictionary's interpretation of the etymology of this word. Where was Zupania? Why would they adopt a name of somebody collecting taxes, I do not mean a proper name. Then I was not thrilled with the explanation that this has been a common form to refer to people in Polish in a polite way. The author did not state from when, and it sounded as it had been this way since the Middle Ages, at least.


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> I absolutely agree, Istriano. It does not sound Slavic.


Why?


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> Thank you Berndf, for both answers. Regarding the second one, I was perhaps not too clear. I just was not convinced by the dictionary's interpretation of the etymology of this word. Where was Zupania? Why would they adopt a name of somebody collecting taxes, I do not mean a proper name. Then I was not thrilled with the explanation that this has been a common form to refer to people in Polish in a polite way. The author did not state from when, and it sounded as it had been this way since the Middle Ages, at least.


It seems that you have already decided that you have the correct answer to your question, and only looked for someone to confirm it. That's why you reject all answers that do not fit your concept.


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## LilianaB

I do not have any correct answers, Ben Jamin, I am trying to find out the real etymology of this word.


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## merquiades

Hi Liliana.  I'm not a speaker of Polish unfortunately so I don't have any feel for what sounds right or what is hearsay.  That I'll leave to you and Ben Jamin.  I merely tried to summarize what was the gist of what I read.  żupania was described as any area/district/ region in which there was one important person (the żupan < pan) who was in charge of gathering taxes for nobles, then later also in charge of their castle and its business, then the term slowly extended to any important person at all as a title, then all people worthy of respect, then it became you formal in general. It occurred over centuries.  It's what the Polish etymologists said on the website I gave you.  You could even write a message for them if you choose. I only gave a small summary thinking you would read it all as well as the the links which are in Polish. There was speculation the word could have come in before the 12th century from Hungarian (ispan) with a similar meaning but I don't speak that language either.  I know you prefer the theory it comes from Latin catholicism (panem) or Greek (pan) but I didn't find that. I know pan also means Sir/Lord but I don't see the connection to Monsieur/Seigneur either.  You should probably find out if żupania as region, 'panować' - to rule, 'państwo' - estate, realm, state exist in other slavic languages to discard that it's just not a natural evolution of Slavic origin. What makes it not sound Slavic to you?  Are there no other one syllable words ending in -an?


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> The author did not state from when, and it sounded as it had been this way since the Middle Ages, at least.


I see what you mean. I did not understand it this way. I am not under the impression the author tried to imply that it was like that from the beginning.


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## LilianaB

Thank you, Merquidiades. I read the posts from the referred forum, but unfortunately I did not find too much academic information there, just some speculations. I am very grateful for that reference, Merquidiades, it was very interesting, but did not solve the problem. I think the etymology of those words is very important, because it would shed light somehow on the whole set of values of the cultures that started adopting those terms. I know that the word ponai - lords was introduced in Lithuania in the 15th century. The highest in  the hierarchy started calling themselves ponai or didikai. It happened at about the time when an equivalent of the House of Lords was established in Lithuania. They also accepted the titles similar to the titles of the Holy Roman Empire. This is when ponai was first introduced in the Lithuania, but it must have come from other parts of Poland, from other regions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It is hard for me to believe that the Lithuanian or Polish nobleman would adopt a name for a tax collector to refer to themselves. I would think only a name closer to God, or how people referred to God, or the King, at least.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> ...unfortunately I did not find too much academic information there


Did you really read the thread? In particalar I commend to your attention post #16 and the reference contained therein.

BTW: Aleksander Brückner was a renowned academic*.*


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## LilianaB

Yes, I did Berndf. I meant the posts in the Polish forum Marquidiades referred me to, not this forum.


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## LilianaB

Hello, Merquiades. I think the Polish Pan comes from bread giver, but I cannot prove it yet. The Polish and Lithuanian lords, referred to themselves not just as Pan, but as Jasnie Pan, Your Highness. They even had JP in front of their names, if you look through some old birth records, after 1670s when Polish was introduced as the official language in Lithuania.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> Yes, I did Berndf. I meant the posts in the Polish forum Marquidiades referred me to, not this forum.


This makes your statement difficult to understand. You have been presented with the expert opinion of one of the most eminent scholars in the field corroberated by two other sources. I could understand, if you considered the argument inconclusive as there seems to be no scholarly consensus. But calling it "unacademic" I find rather perplexing.


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## LilianaB

Hello, Berndf. I found the posts in the said forum non-academic. I am not too happy with the dictionary explanation either. I think doubt is a positive force in science and linguistics, and perhaps in other fields too.


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## LilianaB

What are your feelings about the word Pan coming from the Greek all, like all-embracing, etc. In fact which word was first, panstwo - the state, or Pan in Polish?


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> I do not have any correct answers, Ben Jamin, I am trying to find out the real etymology of this word.


So, why do not you accept the answer you got from many participants: the etymology of 'pan' is not known. Words like Latin 'panis' or Greek 'Pan' are false tracks. Nothing makes it probable that they have been involved. No etymologist has ever seriously considered these proposals. The same is with the allegedly French origin. All these theories have been falsified.)
Let us not play folk etymologists. (One of them was Adam Mickiewicz, the poet. He played an etymologist, which he was not. He wrote "Pies pochodzi od pieszy, bo pieszo chodzi" ('Pies (Dog)' comes form pedestrian because it walks on its feet)).


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## LilianaB

The reason is very simple, Ben Jamin. I am not convinced, especially that the etymology of this word in some dictionaries is described as unknown. The theories have not be falsified, I am sure if you know the precise meaning of the word falsify. These were just hypotheses which could be refuted. How many serious etymologists were there who worked with Polish?


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> The reason is very simple, Ben Jamin. I am not convinced, especially that the etymology of this word in some dictionaries is described as unknown. The theories have not be falsified, I am sure if you know the precise meaning of the word falsify. These were just hypotheses which could be refuted. How many serious etymologists were there who worked with Polish?


Moderator note: Trying to replace educated scholarly hypotheses by baseless speculation does not seems to be move in the right direction. I'd like to hear some minmal substantiation for alternative explanations at this otherwise I see no base to continue the discussion.


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## Ben Jamin

I have consulted all the Polish Etymological dictionaries, and here are the entries, given in chronological order, together with the name of the author. I have not translated, people interested will understand:

Aleksander Brückner (1927):
Z jezyka Awarów,  od *żupan*,  urzędnik pobierający daniny

Andrzej Bańkowski(2000)
Pierwotnie: naczelnik grodu, kasztelan, od 1398 wypiera dawne ’gospodzin’, forma pierwotna *gъpan*, czeski: *hpan*, możliwe że od węgierskiego *ispan* (niem. *Gespan*) ’starosta’ lub ze  starobawarskiego.

Wiesław  Boryś (2005)
Od starosł *gъpan*, sanskrit *gopah* ”stróż, pasterz”


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## LilianaB

Could gopah be connected to the Greek Pan - god of shepards? Further related to Latin panis, food or feeder?


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> Could gopah be connected to the Greek Pan - god of shepards? Further related to Latin panis, food or feeder?


If you find any evidence, you may be the first to prove it. So far, nobody says so.


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## mataripis

LilianaB said:


> Could gopah be connected to the Greek Pan - god of shepards? Further related to Latin panis, food or feeder?


The meaning of word is simply "For" , everything are made(the scenes/events) by Theos=  PANTHEON.  The food/bread here is replaced by " The fact this makes a strong evidence" .


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## LilianaB

Thank you, Mataripis. No, I meant the Indo-European word gopah and the Greek god Pan who is connected to Latin panis.


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## berndf

LilianaB said:


> ...the Greek god Pan who is connected to Latin panis.


This connection is through a common PIE root only. It plays no role for medieval developments.


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## Maroseika

Yet another version of Trubachev (1967):

Pan < W. Slavic *gъраnъ < Ancient Iranian gau-pana - shepherd (cf. Sanskrit go - cow, рā- - keeper).


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## LilianaB

If they came from shepherd this would  make sense to me, as a flock protector.


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