# Egyptian Arabic vs. Levantine Arabic (Jordanian, Lebanese, Palestinian, Syrian)



## Cap'm

Hi all, I've had some experience studying Egyptian Arabic, and will soon move to Amman, Jordan to try my hand at the local dialect there.  I was wondering if anyone could give me a run down of challenges I might face regarding the differences in the dialect.  I understand that I will encounter some different vocabulary, but what I am curious about is whether or not there are any significant gramatical differences.  Thanks so much.


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## Abu Rashid

If you check in the resources thread, you'll find a link to the FSI Arabic resources. They actually have a PDF course about this specific topic, ie. the differences between Levantine (Jordanian) dialect and Egyptian dialect. It's well worth checking out.


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## clevermizo

Cap'm said:


> Hi all, I've had some experience studying Egyptian Arabic, and will soon move to Amman, Jordan to try my hand at the local dialect there.  I was wondering if anyone could give me a run down of challenges I might face regarding the differences in the dialect.  I understand that I will encounter some different vocabulary, but what I am curious about is whether or not there are any significant gramatical differences.  Thanks so much.



You will encounter many differences, as Jordanian and Egyptian Arabic are in two different "families" if you will of Arabic dialects. Jordanian is actually a mixed bag: in Amman, the prevailing dialect will have the most in common with other dialects of the Levant: Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian. However, many Jordanians also have ties to Bedouin culture, even in the city, and as such there is a degree of influence of Bedouin pronunciation (notably in the pronunciation of ق as [g] and in the pronunciation of ث, ذ as dh and th respectively rather than the prevalent  z,s/d,t  elsewhere in the region).  This is usually stratified in Amman between men and women's dialects. You will find women speak almost a pure sedentary Levantine (in the city) very close to Palestinian Arabic, while men often (perhaps in an affected way) will speak what is undeniably Levantine Arabic with some aspects of rural and Bedouin pronunciations. 

The specific grammatical differences between Jordanian and Egyptian Arabic I think is a topic a little bit large for this thread. I have lived in Amman and I was functional and intelligible after spending a few months studying Syrian dialect. I don't have experience with Egyptian. I would check through the Arabic resources at the top of the threads to see if there are any links that can help you. Some googling couldn't hurt. 

A few things you will notice (and will help you at least get started and thinking):

The /*b-*/ indicative is used. This becomes *m-* in the first person plural.

The /-*sh*/ negative is not common (unless if perhaps by Palestinian speakers).

You will sometimes hear the negated copula as *mu* rather than *mish* by some speakers (especially women in the city).

The verb عاز does not mean "want" (but rather "need" and then it loses ground to احتاج). The common Levantine "want" is expressed by بدّ which takes possessive suffixes (in Jordanian this is pronounced *bidd-* and combines to form *biddi, biddak, biddek, biddo, etc. *).

ج is pronounced [j] (this is not IPA. This may also be romanized [zh]. I could put it in IPA but I've had encoding problems and I think it gets the point across).

ق is pronounced as [g] by men in Amman, and by most everyone in rural areas (even in Christian areas). 

ث,ذ and ض/ظ are often pronounced *dh* *th* and *Dh* in the same circumstances as ق>g above (another facet of Bedouin/rural influence). 

I think that if you are fairly proficient in Egyptian, you can make some alterations to your speech and make yourself understood while you learn more about Jordanian. Again, I would check the Arabic resources in the forum to see if there's anything in there to help you out.

Good luck. إن شاء الله بتتوفّق


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## Josh_

clevermizo said:


> The verb عاز does not mean "want" (but rather "need" and then it loses ground to احتاج). The common Levantine "want" is expressed by بدّ which takes possessive suffixes (in Jordanian this is pronounced *bidd-* and combines to form *biddi, biddak, biddek, biddo, etc. *).


It is worthy to note that while it is probably true that in most cases the verb عاز means 'want' in Egyptian Arabic, it can also mean 'need' depending on context.  As an example of when it could mean 'need' one could say "il-3arabiyya 3ayza banziin" with the meaning of "the car needs gas."


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## clevermizo

Ah cool; didn't realize that. I know it's beyond the scope of this thread, but it's interesting to me how in many languages ideas like "want," "need" etc. have areas of overlap. In Chinese you commonly use one verb for "want," "need" and the future tense.

I've heard the expression بدّه biddo/baddo in Levantine comes from the maSdar of the verb ودّ, and that the full expression was originally "بِوَدّي" which would mean something like "It is my desire that..." "It is my wish that ..." In Jordanian this is treated as a verb proper, however, and in the past tense, it is inflected كنت بدي, كنت بدك, كنتي بدِك, كان بده, كانت بدها.  In Syria/Lebanon it is still treated as a third person expression and is put into the past with كان in the third person for all forms كان بدي, كان بدك etc.


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## Josh_

Yes, the 'bidd(i, ak, etc)' structure meaning '(I, you) want' does come from the maSdar of ودّ and I believe the واو was eventually syncopated due to the fact that it is a weak letter anyway.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Interesting.
In Levantine Badawi they say "widdi,widdak..etc"


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## Cap'm

Thanks a bunch, guys.  This was just the sort of stuff I was looking for, so I look forward to seeing how it will play out when I arrive in country.  Thanks again!


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## MarcB

All I have to add is just like there is more than one way to speak Jordanian there is also more than one way to speak in Egypt. The good news is that despite the differences already pointed out,both variants are mutually intelligible.


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## clevermizo

Of course saying "Jordanian Arabic" is an over-simplification, but I would argue that it is only intelligible to a certain extent with Egyptian. This is why I said that if one is fairly proficient in the latter, they can modify their speech in certain ways and make themselves functionally understood. But I am not a native speaker, so it may be that it is more intelligible than I think. Jordanian (or at least Ammanite speech) is very (to my understanding) intelligible with say, Palestinian. Perhaps Elroy can let us in on how intelligible he finds Egyptian with Palestinian?

Edit: I *do not* intend with this question to start any thread that leads to diatribes about Arabic dialectology as that I believe has become very tiresome on this forum and there are numerous threads devoted to it. However, the question at hand is perhaps, is it worth modifying one's speech to be better understood whilst in Amman, or is speaking entirely in Egyptian advisable? Personally, I think that it is probably a good idea to do so to some extent: as with basic words (interrogatives, demonstratives, pronouns, basic expressions such as "speak" or "want," salutations, pleasantries etc.) and perhaps resorting to fus7a stock vocabulary when one needs to get out of a misunderstanding. This strategy may be useful especially if one's focus is going to be Egyptian inevitably and one does not have the desire to fluently learn Jordanian Arabic.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Perhaps Elroy can let us in on how intelligible he finds Egyptian with Palestinian?


Very, very intelligible. I have no problems understanding it, despite all the differences. As has been mentioned previously on the forum, this is in large part due to our heavy exposure to Egyptian films, music, etc.


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## Josh_

Leaving out the Egyptian media, would the two dialects be mutually intelligible as they stand?


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## WadiH

Josh_ said:


> Leaving out the Egyptian media, would the two dialects be mutually intelligible as they stand?


 
With a short period of adaptation, yes.  Also, the more literate a person the easier such adaptation becomes.


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## Josh_

Well, there are definitely degrees of mutual intelligibility, but the way I tend to view it is being able to readily understand (with at least a high degree of comprehension if not full comprehension) another dialect/language without much, if any, effort, involved and without having previously studied it.  One may not be able to speak the other dialect (not being familiar with the phonology), but will be able to understand it upon hearing it (due to its proximity to the his/her own dialect). So my question is would one, a Palestinian or an Egyptian, without ever having heard the other dialect before, be able to understand the other dialect, or at least get the gist of what is being said, upon first hearing it?


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## Abu Rashid

> So my question is would one, a Palestinian or an Egyptian, without ever having heard the other dialect before, be able to understand the other dialect, or at least get the gist of what is being said, upon first hearing it?



It'd be very hard to find a Palestinian who hasn't heard the Egyptian dialect before. Also note that Palestinians who live closer to Egypt tend to have a much more Egyptian dialect anyway. For instance in Gaza they speak very much like Egyptians.


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## cherine

Are Egyptians and Jordanians able to understand each other?
Simple answer: yes, with the exception of regional slang words.

Based on my personal experience: I spoke with a Palestinian friend (note that Jordanian and Palestinian are quite similar), each of us using his dialect; which means: I didn't try to speak in Palestinian dialect nor did he try to speak in the Egyptian one.
Result: we understood each other perfectly. Whenever one of us didn't understand a word said by the other, we simply asked about its meaning, and the flow of the conversation didn't suffer at all.

So, mastering a dialect helps in communication (specially if you know Egyptianr which is understood by all -or most- of the Arabic native speakers)


Cap'm said:


> I understand that I will encounter some different vocabulary, but what I am curious about is whether or not there are any significant gramatical differences.


You got it right 
The main problem is the vocabulary (slang words). Add to it the difference in some vowels, the speed of speech. But all this is no big deal.
Good news is: there's no significant grammatical differences, if any


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## clevermizo

cherine said:


> Based on my personal experience: I spoke with a Palestinian friend (note that Jordanian and Palestinian are quite similar), each of us using his dialect; which means: I didn't try to speak in Palestinian dialect nor did he try to speak in the Egyptian one.
> Result: we understood each other perfectly. Whenever one of us didn't understand a word said by the other, we simply asked about its meaning, and the flow of the conversation didn't suffer at all.



A guy I know from Jordan studies at AUC and he says that when he is in Egypt he speaks in Egyptian all the time. Do you think this is normal? Or do you think most people (especially from the Levant countries which have dialects similar to Egyptian in many ways) just speak their native dialect when in Egypt?


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## Josh_

Abu Rashid said:


> It'd be very hard to find a Palestinian who hasn't heard the Egyptian dialect before. Also note that Palestinians who live closer to Egypt tend to have a much more Egyptian dialect anyway. For instance in Gaza they speak very much like Egyptians.


It was a hypothetical question.  The point was whether the two dialects, in and of themselves, are mutually intelligible, irrespective of the influence of media or other influences.


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## Abu Rashid

> It was a hypothetical question.



Well in some sense the situation does occur. I think a good example is the Arabic immigrant communities in the West. The first generation of children, generally don't know Fus7a, and don't have much exposure to Arabic media (ie. Jordanians in the West wouldn't see much/any Egyptian film) and they struggle quite a lot if speaking to someone with a different dialect. I think this is also strongly related to the fact they've only learned the language orally, and often mispronounce things due to never having seen them written.

However, they can communicate, but they become severely restricted in their vocabulary, and normally they switch to English or whatever other common language they share.


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## suma

Josh_ said:


> Leaving out the Egyptian media, would the two dialects be mutually intelligible as they stand?


 
That's a tough one, because in the real world such non-exposure to other's dialects rarley exists.

It's like imagine at the age of 40 I never ever heard a British accent. That means no James Bond films, no BBC news, no interviews of British pop stars like Jagger, and others. If that could ever be the case then yes I imagine that I would struggle somewhat to understand their speech.

Reminds me of when I first came into contact with Carribean English. At first for a few months it was very hard to understand their speech. They used the same words and essentially the same grammar but they pronounced things so "funny". Although sometimes they used words regularly that is rare in American speech, such as they say "vexed" meaning to be/get angry. Americans almost never use that word.
I've noticed similar things amonst the various Arabic dialects.


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## cherine

clevermizo said:


> A guy I know from Jordan studies at AUC and he says that when he is in Egypt he speaks in Egyptian all the time. Do you think this is normal? Or do you think most people (especially from the Levant countries which have dialects similar to Egyptian in many ways) just speak their native dialect when in Egypt?


I knew a Jordanian Palestinian guy who was studying in the University of Alexandria. I knew him for a year and a half. And with 3 or 4 exceptions, I _*never*_ heard him speak Palestinian. He believed that speaking in Egyptian dialect was better and made him closer to the people he was talking with.

But I don't think there are many people who think -or at least can do- like him.

Arab artists (specially Levantines and Maghrebis) speak in Egyptian Arabic when they're on Egyptian tv and use their dialect when on other Networks. I think they do it on purpose to be "closer" to people, or to make sure they're understood.

One thing though: with the increase in cable tv channels in the Arab world, different Arabic countries get to listen to each others' dialects, and it's less and less necessary to use another dialect to be understood by the others.


suma said:


> That's a tough one, because in the real world such non-exposure to other's dialects rarley exists.



You haven't lived in Egypt.

I don't have cable tv, and I don't get the chance to listen to other Arabic accents. And I'm not the only one.

So, to answer Josh's question:


Josh_ said:


> Leaving out the Egyptian media, would the two dialects be mutually intelligible as they stand?


My answer is:
It's hard for me to understand every single word, specially when people speak fast or use slang words, but in general I managed to understand the people I got to listen to, or communicate with, even when it was the first time for me to listen to their dialect.

In other words: it is not impossible to be mutually intelligible, even when we didn't have the benefit of media exposure.


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## suma

cherine said:


> You haven't lived in Egypt.
> 
> I don't have cable tv, and I don't get the chance to listen to other Arabic accents. And I'm not the only one.


Actually I did spend nearly a year living in Cairo, TanTa, neighborhoods of Giza, Mohandisseen, and Do'kee.
But I was unaware that non-Egyptians use Egyptian dialect when appearing on Egyptian tv. So that would explain how many Egyptians get little or no exposure to other dialects.

Funny, it's not like that in the Anglo world, British, Aussies, and others all speak in their own dialects when appearing on American tv, this despite the US's media/cultural dominance.


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## clevermizo

suma said:


> Funny, it's not like that in the Anglo world, British, Aussies, and others all speak in their own dialects when appearing on American tv, this despite the US's media/cultural dominance.



They don't entirely though. For example, no one comes on US TV and speaks straight Yorkshire dialect and expects to be properly understood. There is a sort of "Standard" English lingua franca that I think gets employed, even though of course people don't try to change their native accent to sound American.


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## Josh_

But you know the English dialect situation between America, England, and Australia is quite different than the dialect situation in the Arabic world.  There are of course regional word differences and idioms, but for the most part the dialect situation is more a matter of accent than different words.  I can remember being a small child hearing the British accent and thinking that "they talk funny" but was able to understand everything that they said. So, I think your example of never having heard a British accent and not being able to understand it is not quite accurate.  As for others such Caribbean English, Singaporean English, etc, the situation is different and other factors have to be taken into account such as other languages being present before English and those languages having heavily influenced the English.  As I know little about it I do not want to delve to deeply into it.  Anyway, all of this is horribly off topic.

I did want to mention that if non-Egyptians speak in the Egyptian dialect (with relative ease anyway), it is probably a result of having studied it some.  Even though someone might be able to understand it due to the influence of media, I don't think they would be able to just effortlessly speak in it, as this understanding would be passive knowledge of it, and not active.  Living here in Detroit, in which there is a large Lebanese population, I can (generally) understand what is being said, but I would be hard pressed to speak in the dialect.  Making 'talg' into 'thalj' takes a conscious effort for me since I am not use saying it that way, but if I hear 'thalj' I know what is meant.


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## Abu Rashid

> I don't think they would be able to just effortlessly speak in it, as this understanding would be passive knowledge of it, and not active



Actually you'd be surprised there are a lot of Arabs who can put on an Egyptian accent, and speak it quite well.



> Making 'talg' into 'thalj' takes a conscious effort for me since I am not use saying it that way



The "G" and "J" thing is probably one of the simpler things to switch between. But I guess if you've just been used to one way, and haven't had much exposure to other dialects, then it may impede your ability to switch so easily.

I am exposed quite a lot to the Egyptian and Levantine dialects, and even quite a bit of intermixing between them (as some of my colleagues are Egyptian, some Palestinian), so switching between them feels quite natural for me.


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## toolmanUF

Cap'm said:


> Hi all, I've had some experience studying Egyptian Arabic, and will soon move to Amman, Jordan to try my hand at the local dialect there. I was wondering if anyone could give me a run down of challenges I might face regarding the differences in the dialect. I understand that I will encounter some different vocabulary, but what I am curious about is whether or not there are any significant gramatical differences. Thanks so much.


 
First, I want to wish you good luck in Amman! I studied abroad there, and loved it. Jordan is a beautiful country. You have to go to Petra!

In response to your question, when I arrived in Amman I didn't know a word of any dialect, only fusha. After studying and learning the Jordanian dialect, I found that now I can now understand Egyptians better.

For example, if you had never studied a dialect before then you wouldn't know that "bukra" means tomorrow in spoken Arabic. You would probably know "ghedan." However, "bukra" is used in both Jordan and Egypt. This is just one example, but by learning one dialect it will be easier to understand other ones.


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## WadiH

Another example would be the root "شاف" and its derivatives, which is almost never found in writing yet is used by nearly all spoken dialects.


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## Abu Rashid

I don't think شاف exists in Fus7a, بكرة on the other hand does, it has just undergone a little semantic drift.


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## WadiH

To the contrary, شاف is an ancient word, with a long section devoted to it in Lisanul 'Arab and elsewhere (search for it here).  The very perponderance of the word across vast differences in place and lifestyle attests to its authenticity.  It has also undergone some "semantic drift" as you say.  Originally it meant "to survey", usually from an elevated vantage point, whereas now it simply means "to see".


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## doctordrei

I was wondering. I'd really like to learn Levantine dialect to talk mostly to Lebanese people, but when I look online on internet for the lessons of this dialect or anything associated with that, I can barely find several webs offering some little vocabularies and the most primitive lessons, I cannot make progress in my learning, cause I can't find more lessons which I need to get more rules/words/practising/grammatics/advices.
I can find online much more of Egyptian Arabic lessons. If I want to speak to Lebanese/Palestinian people, and I study in Egyptian Arabic offering webs, will I understand Lebanese/Palestianian talking Arabic? IS there a big difference? What are the main differences? ( grammatics, conjugaison, pronounciation, vocabulary,etc.?)

Or you'd advice me to look at other branch, not Egyptian ?


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## Andrew___

Please see http://syrianarabic.com/.  Syrian is very close to Lebanese dialect.


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## doctordrei

you think, if i learn Syrian way, i'd be able to understand the lebanese or palestinians talking?


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## Andrew___

Yes without a doubt.  There are differences but it wouldn't prevent understanding.


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## WadiH

doctordrei said:


> you think, if i learn Syrian way, i'd be able to understand the lebanese or palestinians talking?


 
Yes, but Syrian is closer to Lebanese than Palestinian.  Some Palestinian dialects have this "post-negation particle" (ش) that is similar to Egyptian but absent from Syrian and Lebanese (بعرفش, ما فهمتش).

I personally don't think the differences between Egyptian dialects and Syrian dialects are _that _great; definitely mutually inteligible without too much effort.  Others would disagree, though.


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## suma

Native speakers usually don't have much trouble navigating thru and understanding other dialects, but 2nd language learners often do.
If you learn the Egyptian dialect, your Lebanese friends will certainly understand you, but *you* will have some difficulty in comprehending their Lebanese speech. In time it will get easier.


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## Nikola

Look at resources at top of this page=
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=63753
7c Palestinian 9a same as post #2 ,9f Lebanese, 9g Egyptian,9j compares Levantine to Egyptian. I agree with all the previous posts.
The post-negation sh mentioned by Wadi Hanifa is found in some Lebanese speakers. All of links are free some have audio and they are a good start for a beginner to early intermediate. also do a search here for previous links about those dialects and mutual intelligibility.
There are also many books on those dialects.


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## SonOfAdam

I know this is an ancient thread, but I'd just like to share the following ancient resource. It seems both are still useful 

FSI Levantine and Egyptian Arabic Comparative Study


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## Leritu

Hi everyone!

I speak a fair amount of madani Palestinian / Syrian Arabic and I have decided I would like to study MSA. However, the best program for me (time-wise and money-wise) starts with Egyptian Arabic in the first semester and only then switches to MSA. Attending the Egyptian Arabic classes is mandatory.

I don't mind studying Egyptian Arabic, but I was wondering: what are the main differences? What are things I should be careful with, are there any false friends? I would love to hear some concrete examples.

I have read the FSI comparative study by Margaret Omar, but since this is 42 years old, I am wondering if there have been any significant linguistic changes / developments since then.

Thanks in advance!


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> In Chinese you commonly use one verb for "want," "need" and the future tense.


 I know another language that does that.  


Leritu said:


> are there any false friends?


 For false friends, check out this thread.


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## Leritu

elroy said:


> For false friends, check out this thread.



Thank you!


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## Ustaath

Josh_ said:


> It was a hypothetical question.  The point was whether the two dialects, in and of themselves, are mutually intelligible, irrespective of the influence of media or other influences.


Yes they are to native speakers.It's not even an issue, unless prejudice is taken iinto consideration in which cade its not an intelligbility issue. L2 soeakers.. well that's a different cup of tea. Ofcourse the assumption here is were talking about the dominant dialects not the rural  variants.


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