# ü-sound



## KnightMove

Which languages do have an ü-sound, as the French pronounce a "u"?

So far, I know French, German, Greek, and Turkish. Others?


----------



## lazarus1907

Mandarin Chinese too.



> The Chinese vowels all have quite logical pronunciation, but there are some details to be noted – especially the three types of "i", two types of "e" and two types of "u"!
> 
> *ü / yu*  	As the German "ü". Try to say "yeee", keep your tongue exactly where it is and let the sound continue while you for your lips to the shape they'd have when you say "yuuu".
> 
> http://www.zein.se/patrick/chinen8p.html#initials


----------



## Outsider

KnightMove said:
			
		

> Which languages do have an ü-sound, as the French pronounce a "u"?
> 
> So far, I know French, German, Greek, and Turkish. Others?


Some dialects of Portuguese spoken in the Azores islands have it (spelled _u_). It doesn't exist anywhere else in Portuguese, that I know.

Close front unrounded vowel.


----------



## Outsider

And some dialects of Scottish English.


----------



## sdr083

The sound that is spelled ü in German in more or less equivalent to Norwegian (and Swedish) Y. Norwegian and Swedinsh both distinguish between /y/ and /u/ though, which gives us three upper, frontal vowels (i, y and u). French u is supposed to be placed somewhere between Norwegian u and y.


----------



## _blue_

Spanish does I think. vergüenza...?


----------



## Outsider

_blue_ said:
			
		

> Spanish does I think. vergüenza...?


The original post asked about the sound [ü], not the symbol ü.


----------



## Fernando

Right. Spanish ü is spelled as "u" (more or less, as English "good"). It is used to distinguish the silent "u" (guepardo=gepardo) and pronounced (agüero).

Edit: I have fixed the mistaken use of voiced / voiceless. Thanks, Outsider.


----------



## Mutichou

Mandarin Chinese pronounces this sound. I think Icelandic does too.


----------



## Whodunit

Here are some more examples:





> Dutch: fuut [fy:t], 'grebe'
> Finnish: yksi ['yksi], 'one'
> French: chute [∫yt], 'fall'
> German: Blüte [bly'te], 'blossom'
> Hungarian: tű [ty:], 'pin'
> Swedish: yla [yчla], 'to howl'
> Turkish: güneş [ɟy'ne∫], 'sun'


----------



## MingRaymond

It is in Cantonese too.


----------



## sound shift

This sound is found in Occitan too.

It is said not to exist in BE, but many young English people now use it in words such as "goose" and "two". This phenomenon, known as u-fronting, is commonest in the South-East of England and is more prevalent among women than men. People who front "u" in this way tend to front other vowels: their "good" can tend towards "gid",  and they often produce an "e" -sound instead of a schwa as the first element in the diphthong in "home".


----------



## shaloo

We have that (yu) sound in telugu, hindi, kannada, gujarathi, tamil, malayalam and......i think in almost all indian languages.

P.S: Can correct me if I'm wrong 

Shalu


----------



## robbie_SWE

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Here are some more examples:


 
It's not only the Swedish letter "y" that is pronounced like the "ü". In my dialect (Skania dialect of Southern Sweden, more precisely Northern Öresund region) the regular "u" is pronounced like "ü". 

*hund* = something like "hynd" or "hünd"

Plus we have the ü in loanwords from German. Ex: 

_über_
_übermensch_


 robbie


----------



## ALOV

In Dutch there's also a /ü/ sound:

uur: hour
vuur : fire
huur: hire
etc.


----------



## Outsider

sound shift said:
			
		

> It is said not to exist in BE, but many young English people now use it in words such as "goose" and "two". This phenomenon, known as u-fronting, is commonest in the South-East of England and is more prevalent among women than men. People who front "u" in this way tend to front other vowels: their "good" can tend towards "gid",  and they often produce an "e" -sound instead of a schwa as the first element in the diphthong in "home".


There's a song by Pink Floyd where I think you can hear this sound in an English accent. It's in the line: 

"Y*ou*! Yes, y*ou* behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

from _Another Brick in the Wall_, Part II


----------



## modus.irrealis

sound shift said:
			
		

> It is said not to exist in BE, but many young English people now use it in words such as "goose" and "two". This phenomenon, known as u-fronting, is commonest in the South-East of England and is more prevalent among women than men. People who front "u" in this way tend to front other vowels: their "good" can tend towards "gid",  and they often produce an "e" -sound instead of a schwa as the first element in the diphthong in "home".


I've read it also occurs in Californian English. And if you pronounce "dude" as [dy:d] for example, you get a half decent imitation of the accent. 

For historic examples, Old English had the sound, spelt "y," and Greek only used to have the sound, it's merged with _ in the modern language.

Thymios_


----------



## vince

Cantonese has this sound, written as *yu* in Jyutping romanization:
zyun: (to turn) (as in "zyun zo" = turn left)
jyun: (far)


----------



## maver

Estonian has this sound, too. It is also written 'ü'.


----------



## ronanpoirier

Outsider said:
			
		

> Some dialects of Portuguese spoken in the Azores islands have it (spelled _u_). It doesn't exist anywhere else in Portuguese, that I know.



That is interesting:

I've noticed some people pronouncing something close to this sound here in Brazil! In words such as "viu" and "riu", they would be pronounce as /viw/ or /hiw/ but some people seems to be too lazy to move their lips to make the /i/ sound that they leave them rounded, so the sounds comes out almost as a /y/. Weird, uh? I think it's related to next sound and stuff. The same happens if the letter after I is O. But it's not everybody who does that. However, when I really pronounce that sound, it sounds a little bit like Portuguese accent.


----------



## übermönch

In Russian it appears when the letter ю (yu/yooh) stands after constants. 
f.e. to love = lübit' = любить


----------



## Whodunit

übermönch said:
			
		

> In Russian it appears when the letter ю (yu/yooh) stands after constants.
> f.e. to love = lübit' = любить


 
Really? I've been told that "I love you" in Russian is "tebya lyublyu". Would you now pronounce it as "tebya lüblü"?


----------



## übermönch

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Really? I've been told that "I love you" in Russian is "tebya lyublyu". Would you now pronounce it as "tebya lüblü"?


 Yes, it would be _almost _pronounced that way. The ya/я after constants is not ya, but a sound not existant in german or english (if ü is an _i_ and an _u_ at the same time, then я is an i/a). yo/ё after constants is the German ö, е/ye after constants is the German ä. (The German e is actually closer to the э)
But fear not to say it the wrong way, because seeming to be a foreigner  from the west doubles your charme


----------



## Montesacro

The ü-sound exists in many Northern Italian dialects (for example in Milanese, Piedmontese, Genoese...).
However, it's not found in Venetian.

One can occasionally hear it in scattered areas of Southern Italy as well (I'm thinking of Apulia and Basilicata).

It's not one of the vowel sounds of standard Italian, of course.


----------



## Tjahzi

Montesacro said:


> The ü-sound exists in many Northern Italian dialects (for example in Milanese, Piedmontese, Genoese...).
> However, it's not found in Venetian.



Wow, that's very interesting!

Do you know how it has arisen/in what contexts it occurs?

(As in, does it occur where Standard Italian has /i/ or /u/ or maybe these in combination with a certain consonant(/combination) or in a completely different context?)


----------



## Montesacro

Tjahzi said:


> Wow, that's very interesting!
> 
> Do you know how it has arisen/in what contexts it occurs?
> 
> (As in, does it occur where Standard Italian has /i/ or /u/ or maybe these in combination with a certain consonant(/combination) or in a completely different context?)


 
I suppose that in those Northern Italian dialects the _ü sounds_ (and also the _ö sounds)_ occur more or less in the same contexts as in French.
That is, the development from vulgar Latin should have been similar.

I'm no expert, but I think that:

- from Latin long U you get _ü (ex. _lūna--> lüna /'lyːna/; Italian _luna_)

- from Latin short O you get _ö (ex. r_ŏta--> röda /'rœːda/; Italian _ruota_)


----------



## Tjahzi

Ahh, that really does make sense.

I failed to make the connect with the fact that neighboring French has [y] but it does indeed seem likely that the same phonological development that resulted in [y] in Standard French lead to them appearing in Northern Italian dialects as well.

Thanks!


----------



## JGreco

ronanpoirier said:


> That is interesting:
> 
> I've noticed some people pronouncing something close to this sound here in Brazil! In words such as "viu" and "riu", they would be pronounce as /viw/ or /hiw/ but some people seems to be too lazy to move their lips to make the /i/ sound that they leave them rounded, so the sounds comes out almost as a /y/. Weird, uh? I think it's related to next sound and stuff. The same happens if the letter after I is O. But it's not everybody who does that. However, when I really pronounce that sound, it sounds a little bit like Portuguese accent.



Yes, I have also heard it too. As you, my mother is also from the South of Brazil and in some of the German communities down their (German ancestral I mean) that sound seems to exist. I know you refer to "general Brazilian accents," but as a regionalism, I've heard it in the South.


----------

