# Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu: Jalandhar



## marrish

I just saw a recent thread by Alfaaz SaaHib in which he mentioned a modern Urdu poet, late Zia Jalandhari. 

In Urdu, his name is written جالندھری _jaalaNdharii_.

In Punjabi, the city is either called جالندھر _jaalandár_ or ਜਲੰਧਰ _jalandár_. In Hindi, I found the spelling जलंधर _jalaNdhar_ but also जालंधर _jaalaNdhar_ (e.g. on Wikipedia Hindi - only in the title with [a] and with [aa] in the text.

Another famous poet from the same city, Hafeez Jalandhari - who wrote the Pakistan national anthem - is mentioned in Urdu as _jaalaNdharii_ but in Punjabi on Wikipedia someone choose to write his name as حفیظ جلندری _Hafiiz Jalandarii _which is no different to Eastern Punjabi Wiki _Hafiiz Jalandárii_. 


Why is this so complicated?


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## Qureshpor

Is it "jalandar" or "Jalandhar" in Punjabi? I seem to hear the former. Perhaps in careful speech it is the latter. If the following is to be believed, the place name has its connections with the Puranas and Mahabharata. It is possible that Punjabi speakers have taken a shortcut and changed it to Jalandhar. 

Question. In Sanskrit, is the word for "inside" andhar? (I believe biyaas has been mis-spelt below).

जालंधर ज़िले का नाम राक्षस के नाम पर रखा गया है, जिसका उल्लेख पुराण और महाभारत में भी हुआ है। जबकि कुछ का मानना है कि यह जगह राम के पुत्र लव की राजधानी थी। वही कुछ मानते हैं कि जालंधर का अर्थ पानी के अंदर होता है तथा यहाँ पर सतलुज और बीस नदियों का संगम होता है इसलिए इस जगह का नाम जालंधर रखा गया।


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## marrish

You are no doubt better placed to answer your own question about Punjabi.... but perhaps panjabigator SaaHib can say more about it. On the official site of the district, http://jalandhar.nic.in/, ਜਲੰਧਰ is mentioned and its pronunciation ought to be _jalandár_ as I mentioned above - but it has to be confirmed. I'd be very surprised if it were to be pronounced "Jalandhar" in Punjabi, because of the position of "dha" and the tone as the result.

In Sanskrit for inside it is "_antar-_". _jalandhara-_ means basically "a cloud" - _jal nuuN dharNR_ (_t_àrNR_) _vaalii_ (in Skt. _vaalaa_ (m.)


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## Wolverine9

Monier Williams doesn't give "cloud" as one of the definitions for _jalaMdhara_, but I can see why it would make sense.

jalaMdhara: m. (g. 1. %{naDA7di}) `" water-bearer "'N. of a man Pravar. ; of an  Asura (produced by the contact of a flash from S3iva's eye with the  ocean , and adopted by the god of the waters ; called from having caught  the water which flowed from Brahma1's eye) PadmaP. v , 141 ff. Lin3gaP.  i , 97 ; N. of a particular Mudra1 ; %{-pura} n. *N. of a town*  Katha7rn2. xvi


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## marrish

In my paper copy of Monier Williams' lexicon there is:

_jalaMdhara_: m. ‘holding water’, a (rain-)coud, MBh.; R. &c’the ocean, L.’Cyperus rotundus, L.; Dalbergia ujjeinensis, L.; a metre of 4x32 syllabic instants’….

I couldn't find _jalaMdharapura_


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## Wolverine9

According to the scanned version of the book, the definition you are citing is for _jaladhara_.

You can find both _jaladhara _and _jalaMdhara _here (left column).


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## marrish

Thanks, now I see! So it is possible that the name "_jalaMdharapura_" is the same as Jalandhar?


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## Moon968

It is called Jalandhar in Pakistan but in India, its spelling is different.


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## marrish

^It is called Jalandhar in India too, but the problem is if it is j*aa*landhar or j*a*landhar.


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## Qureshpor

I think it is Jalandhar. The word "jalandharii" after an Urdu poet's name points too much towards his being a Punjabi. Perhaps, "jaalandarii" gives him a bit more "respectabnility". A case of "inferiority complex" perhaps?


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## marrish

I don't think I can follow your line of thought. Here is a link to interesting stuff about this city: British Gazetteer from 1884. Although it is English and because of this the name is in transcription, it is quite accurate as far as all other "desi" names are concerned and it calls the city "Jálandhar" - _jaalandhar_.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/marrish/13878060504/in/set-72157644012379275/


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## panjabigator

marrish said:


> In Punjabi, the city is either called جالندھر _jaalandár_ or ਜਲੰਧਰ _jalandár_. In Hindi, I found the spelling जलंधर _jalaNdhar_ but also जालंधर _jaalaNdhar_ (e.g. on Wikipedia Hindi - only in the title with [a] and with [aa] in the text.





Qureshpor said:


> Is it "jalandar" or "Jalandhar" in Punjabi? I seem to hear the former. Perhaps in careful speech it is the latter. If the following is to be believed, the place name has its connections with the Puranas and Mahabharata. It is possible that Punjabi speakers have taken a shortcut and changed it to Jalandhar. ।





marrish said:


> ^It is called Jalandhar in India too, but the problem is if it is j*aa*landhar or j*a*landhar.



Hmm, this is the first I hear of "jaalandhar." I find it curious that we'd find an ā in Jalandhar's pronunciation, but I wonder if this might be an attempt to correct the name for Hindi? I can't think of any good examples, but I am aware that Punjabi speakers often say what sounds like "panjabbī" versus "panjābi." I always hear the latter and attribute that a more Hindi pronunciation. [We can observe an opposite trend with the lengthening of the "a" in "apnā" (Hindi) to "āpṇā" (Punjabi)]. Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people. 

Sorry I cannot be of more help!

Cheers!


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Hmm, this is the first I hear of "jaalandhar." I find it curious that we'd find an ā in Jalandhar's pronunciation, but I wonder if this might be an attempt to correct the name for Hindi? I can't think of any good examples, but I am aware that Punjabi speakers often say what sounds like "panjabbī" versus "panjābi." I always hear the latter and attribute that a more Hindi pronunciation. [We can observe an opposite trend with the lengthening of the "a" in "apnā" (Hindi) to "āpṇā" (Punjabi)]. Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people.
> 
> Sorry I cannot be of more help!Cheers!


Interesting. This is something that is new to me.


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## marrish

panjabigator said:


> [...]Anyway, I will keep on the lookout for this. I can say that I never heard a Hindi speaker say "jaalandhar" before, but perhaps I wasn't talking with the right people. [...]


Thank you for resurfacing! Please keep on being attentive to it - I would really like to have this issue solved! Could you please share your perceptions about the pronunciation of this name in Punjabi?


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## Wolverine9

Surprisingly, Google produces far more results for _jaalandhar _than _jalandhar _in Hindi.


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## littlepond

In Hindi, most of us pronounce it as "jaalandhar". I always assumed that "jalandhar" is the Punjabi pronunciation.


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## Qureshpor

Platts does not have "jaalandhar" entry.

  H جلندهر  जलन्धर _jalandhar_ = H جلندر जलन्दर _jalandar_ [S. जलं+धरः], s.m. Dropsy, ascites;—flat alluvial land; name of a district in the Punjab (the soil of which is alluvial.) 
    H جلندهري  जलन्धरी _jalandharī_ [_jalandhar_, q.v.+S. ई(इन्)+कः], adj. & s.m. Dropsical;—a dropsical person.

So, I wonder where "jaalandhar" has come from.


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## littlepond

^ No words come from Platts. First words come, then Platts records. I guess he didn't record the other pron., or the pron. has evolved since then.

In short, from wherever it came and even though from etymology "jal" is the proper pron., the fact remains that the highly common pron. in Hindi is "jaalandhar". What I don't understand is that why is this being so extensively discussed. "aa" shortening to schwa, and vice versa, is common in Indic languages.


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## marrish

Platts, as you can read on the forum and in the preface to his dictionary had been researching the literature and newspapers of his time and subsequently relied on the assistance of contemporary experts of the language, so you are right to say "first words come, then Platts records". Please refer to my post #11, that source was published in the same year Platts' dictionary was. Therefore I am quite certain that your first suggestion is true or that he choose what seemed correct to him (and his aides).

I am very grateful for your input as far as Hindi is concerned. This indicates that there is no (major) divergence between Hindi and Urdu. If you didn't understand why it was being discussed in length, perhaps now you can understand . Suppose it was not interesting there wouldn't have been so many contributions (I can't help it, these are from other friends including you ). There are many threads that remain ignored. Leaving aside the shortening or lengthening of "a" - I am wondering about the role of Punjabi in this issue - that is why this topic is being discussed. To tell the truth, when I didn't know Hindi or Punjabi, I was only used to "jaalandharii" in Urdu while upon having learnt them, I was tempted to think that the Urdu spelling was wrong. Well, at least I have benefited from this discussion, thanks to you and W9 again!


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## nikmahesh

New here! I think panjabigator may be on the right track here- I don't know about "_jaalandhar_" since I've never heard it pronounced that way, but in the case of the "dhar" in jalandhar I think it could very likely just be a popularized hindi pronunciation. e.g. like Bhangra..


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## Chhaatr

I have known jalandhar as _jaalaNdhar_ in Hindi.

However, it seems both _jaalaNdhar_ and _jalaNdhar_ are in use even by Indian Railways.  For them, it is _jalaNdhar chhaawnii station_ and _jaalaNdhar siTii station_.  Check out photos below.


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## littlepond

^ Chhaatr jii, is the nasal "N" in your answer deliberate or a typo?


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## Chhaatr

littlepond jii by _N_ I'm trying to denote half _n_ of Hindi.


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## littlepond

^ Ah ok, then I also pronounce it like that  It could mislead some to take it as the "bindi".


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## Chhaatr

^ littlepond jii,_ aaj kal bindii hii chalan meN hai.  agar aap in photos pe dhyaan deN to paaeNge ki bindii kaa hii prayog huaa hai.  aap aur maiN ab shaayad_ old fashioned _kehlaae jaaeNge kyoNki hamne bachpan meN aadhaa na hii siikhaa thaa in shabdoN meN._  By the way, capital or lowercase N is pretty tiresome.  By my logic I should have also used capital N for _bindii_ too.


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## littlepond

^ Ha ha, mujhe maluum nahin thaa ki main itnaa budhaa ho chalaa huun  Mere hisaab se bhii vaise yeh cap/lc kaa jhamelaa kaafii jhamele vaalaa hai  isliye main to adhiktar hameshaa sirf lowercase 'n' kaa hi prayog kartaa huun. Saarii magajmaarii kii chhuTTii!


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