# The French Love Sex?



## quitejaded

My friend showed me pictures of his sister as a performer in some can can/musical thing.

The girls had pretty feathers and dresses with their breasts exposed. I gasped!

He told me that the French also thing its strange if you do not have sex with other people during a marriage.

Is it true? What else about the french?!


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## GenJen54

Hello Jaded,

What seems so stange about these occurrences?

The bottom line is, one can go to Las Vegas, to see their showgirl revues, where there are feather boas and naked breasts galore.  Heck, one can even go to any one of the multiple strip clubs in Dallas along I-635 (Stemmons Freeway), the girls expose more than just their breasts.  This is not exclusive to the French.

Further, people from all cultures in just about all countries have been known to cheat on their spouses.  It's simply part of our antrhopological make-up. 

I don't know that cultural stereotyping in this way is at all helpful.


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## cuchuflete

Quitejaded-

Don't they have pretty feathers and cheating spouses in Texas?

Why question the people of another country for doing what's done in your own back yard?  

Seems pretty trollish.


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## Cracker Jack

Hello quitejaded. This is just probably media hype. In French films, frontal nudity may be overplayed but in reality the French people are not openly demonstrative of their affection. You may see necking and petting in the subway, public squares, cafés, universities, but these are not considered scandalous.

The only thing that blows this out-of-proportion is publicity by French media and the permissiveness of film scenes. In reality, however, the French people are not as scandalous as their EU neighbors. Of course, you may have a eye-popping share of micro-minis and plunging necklines at summertime. But this is duplicated in other cities of temperate zone.

The French may love sex as much as Spaniards, Germans, Italians, British and other Europeans but not as much as the porn industry of Hollywood (Is it the West Hollywood?).


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## ElaineG

What nationality or ethnic group doesn't love sex?  A serious question, actually. If there is one, I'd be very curious to know about it.


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## cuchuflete

quitejaded said:


> What else about the french?!



What else about the puritans?
What else about the texans? (Sorry about the lack of capitalization...just following your orthographic lead.)
What else about the fill-in-the blanks?


What does that question really mean?

Is it a proposed topic, or just some sort of grunt?


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## May-Lynn

quitejaded said:


> He told me that the French also thing its strange if you do not have sex with other people during a marriage.



Hello,
 It is funny... but wrong.

As says Cracker Jack it is media hype. There are cheating spouses... of course... like in all countries in the world...

However nobody is offended with topless on beach. It is totally accepted.


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## badgrammar

I agree with all the answers given so far...  I would simply add that it is true that nudity is not a big issue here.  Go to the beach and you'll see lots of people topless - even at my community swimming pool.  But it might be someone's grandma, and she's there with the grandkids and nobody gives a fig.  It's just a pair of bosoms and poses no problem, and is not a sexual thing.
Also, there is this acceptance of adultery here that I believe comes from having an old history as a country...  It's like when youre old, you've seen it all, it's hard to invent anything shocking, as in "What, Mr. X cheated on his wife?  Oh my God, I've never heard of that before, hang him from the nearest tree!"  What your friend said was greatly exagerated.  

As per the can can shows, the only people who go see those are tourists !  And atleast those girls are amazing dancers with fabulous costumes doing choreographed dance routines.  Not just dancing around a pole in their micro-thong bikini (which you can see just about anywhere in the U.S.

I'm interested to hear the original poster's response to all this !


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## cuchuflete

badgrammar said:


> Not just dancing around a pole in their micro-thing bikini (*which you can see just about anywhere in the U.S.*
> 
> I'm interested to hear the original poster's response to all this !





> Results *1* - *10* of about *46,400* for *texas "gentlemen's club"*.


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## John-Paul

First of all the French are not a separate human species who have twice the amount of testosteron. Second, if someone shows you her breasts, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex. It's sad that women in this country have to breast feed in bathrooms because someone might interpret the showing of the nipple in the mall as a "go ahead" signal, or worse, "dirty". I've seen mother "protecting" their children against the possible "dirty" view of a lactating womans breast.  3d Why? Remember Janet Jackson? You've got this ridiculous testosteron-driven glorification of violence and war where the breaking of bones and the fracturing of skulls are considered admirable accomplishments. That all is OK, that's competion, which is considered a healthty asset in this country.  When suddenly all this masculinity is dwarfed by the flashing of a "boob" the whole country is up in arms. I think there are some deep running issues here.


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## badgrammar

It's always interesting to note that the rape and sexual violence statistics are much higher in America, where nudity is equated with sex, than in countries where the human bdy in general is not seen as something to be hidden and ashamed of.  Some kind of acute sexual repression coupled with missplaced censorship seems like a plausible explanation.


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## claretranslates

This really funny! I can't figure out who told that to this guy...


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## Yogi Bear

Having been turned down by almost every French person I have ever propositioned I can only presume that far from being sex-crazed the whole nation is in fact puritanical beyond belief, as well as a little crazy. Now who can tell me what specious means?


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## la reine victoria

Of course the French love sex, but then who doesn't?

Sexual infidelity in marriage happens all the time.  Husbands and wives can be equally guilty.  Just take a look at the divorce statistics.

What a daft topic.






LRV


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## loladamore

Yogi Bear said:


> Having been turned down by almost every French person I have ever propositioned I can only presume that far from being sex-crazed the whole nation is in fact puritanical beyond belief, as well as a little crazy.


Get yourself some feathers and proposition some married people.


> Now who can tell me what specious means?


Is 'speciousness' to do with being a separate species, as in:





> the French are not a separate human species


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## maxiogee

Welcome, quitejaded, to our little corner of sanity in a strange world.

If you are so shocked at the thought that a dancer in a costume which reveals her bosom, what on earth can you have been doing in life which leads you to think that you are "quite jaded"? It seems like a sheltered existence. 
Has no American woman's breast ever been deliberately revealed to you as part of an entertainment in the course of your life, whether in the flesh or on film/television?

As to your comments on the French attitude to extra-marital sexual escapades, I try not to comment too often on such topics which begin 'I believe the XYZ think…' as it seems like a generalisation which it would be difficult to prove one way or another, and as it seems that it is difficult to know what would be the "norm" in other countries.

I'm fascinated that someone in America, with access to a computer and all the oodles and oodles of pornography on the internet, is startled by the fact that some women expose their breasts for people to look at.

So as not to kill the thread stone dead, perhaps you might tell us why you think these topics worthy of comment here.


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## Frank06

Hi,


quitejaded said:


> My friend showed me pictures of his sister as a performer in some can can/musical thing. The girls had pretty feathers and dresses with their breasts exposed. I gasped!



You gasped? Why? Because her Creator has been generous to her and you liked what you saw? 
Or were you shocked by some nudity and some feathers? If so, your mail has told a lot more about you than about the French...



> He told me that the French also thing its strange if you do not have sex with other people during a marriage. Is it true?



True? Jaded, it's a *law* in France, it's an obligation. It's in the first paragraph of the French Constitution to have to have sex with at least one married person every year (something to do with taxes).

I mean, if you believe your friend's silly tales, then I don't see a reason not to believe this one...



> What else about the french?!



 What else about the French? You want some more raunchy details about what? Their sex lives?
Or do you want some real information? French culture, maybe? Literature, music, ...?

Groetjes,

Frank

PS
In case you have a Brasilian friend who's going to show you some pics of Carnival in Rio, please warn  the local ER, because you'll need a lot more than just a gasp .


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## Iona

Wow ! I've been living  in France for twenty-seven years and have  an unfeathered French  husband and two eqally unfeathered French children. My brightly feathered ,breast exposing ,sex mad French friends must think I'm REALLY strange if what quitejaded says is true! Maybe your friend's sister is a dancer at the  'Crazy Horse' or 'Le Moulin Rouge' in Paris which are in fact prestigious places for dancers.By the way , they don't all eat snails,smoke smelly cigarettes and sing like Maurice Chevalier or Edith Piaff either.Was your question a send up?


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## La Clarinette

I always wondered why my French grandfather wore feathers and exposed his breasts at odd times.

I am now aware of my true cultural heritage, and, since my husband is out of town, think I will invite my lovers to dinner this evening.  Perhaps escargot a la beurre ......


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## quitejaded

Thankyou for all the welcomes. This forum looks awesome!!

So the french aren't so scandalous? Are they atleast more open with nudity? Because this thing my friend's sister plays in looks like something we'd see in a broadway musical (minus the exposed breasts). Something that is supposed to be tasteful. I could be wrong. And sorry, I forgot what exactly the thing is called.

Also, my friends have a friend who moved to france and she said she sees naked people in advertisements!



> What does that question really mean?
> 
> Is it a proposed topic, or just some sort of grunt?


I wanted to know what other scandalous things the french find acceptable.

badgrammar, it IS bad for people to be topless in America. In fact, its ILLEGAL to walk around naked in most places!



> I can't figure out who told that to this guy...


I am a girl! The guy who told me, he tells me he is a genius (I don't believe him) and I told him "I don't believe you! I'm going to find out!"



> Sexual infidelity in marriage happens all the time.


No. The question is Do they find having sex with other partners during a marriage ACCEPTABLE?

People do it in Texas, but it is not ACCEPTABLE! The husband doesn't say "Oh, honey. How was that guy you screwed last night?"



> You gasped? Why? Because her Creator has been generous to her and you liked what you saw?
> Or were you shocked by some nudity and some feathers? If so, your mail has told a lot more about you than about the French...


I gasped because I was not expecting to see breasts! They are supposed to be covered! Did I like it? Well, I found it interseting that all the breasts were no bigger than B cups! I wondered if perkiness was truely THAT important to the french (while Americans can like big breasts that aren't as perky as small ones). Ah, I suppose I was shocked that they were revealing breasts.



> I mean, if you believe your friend's silly tales, then I don't see a reason not to believe this one...


I don't believe him! That's why I came here to learn more!



> What else about the French? You want some more raunchy details about what? Their sex lives?
> Or do you want some real information?French culture, maybe? Literature, music, ...?


YES! Right now, I'm curious as to their position on nudity and sex in general. Like in Japan, they make cartoons sexy on purpose, even though kids are watching it, but at the same time, they don't expect the kids to talk about sex. In America, cartoons are not so obviously sexy. And parents even LIE to their children about sex so they WON'T know about it!


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## cuchuflete

Welcome back, Jaded.  I'll operate on the questionnable assumption that you are not a troll, and that you sincerely believe what you have posted.  





quitejaded said:


> So the french aren't so scandalous?  Who's definition of scandalous?  Many people in the US are painfully puritanical, and confuse 'different' with 'scandalous'.  Are they atleast more open with nudity? Because this thing my friend's sister plays in looks like something we'd see in a broadway musical (minus the exposed breasts). Something that is supposed to be tasteful. I could be wrong. And sorry, I forgot what exactly the thing is called.  What's tasteful in Texas may be scandalous elsewhere.  Or astoundingly dull.   What's tasteful in Austin may be frowned upon in Crawford.
> 
> Also, my friends have a friend who moved to france and she said she sees naked people in advertisements!  Nudity in advertising is common in many countries in Europe and in other parts of the world that don't share the American habit of pretending to find the human body shameful.
> 
> 
> I wanted to know what other scandalous things the french find acceptable.  They disagree with Dubya.  They engage in the same scandalous government subsidies of industry that are so common in the US, but without pretending that it's scandalous .
> 
> badgrammar, it IS bad for people to be topless in America. Jaded!  It IS NOT bad for people to be topless in America or even in the US.  It's just that some prudes would like you to think that it is.  I go topless in both warm weather months, and it doesn't bother me a bit.  In fact, its ILLEGAL to walk around naked in most places!
> 
> 
> I am a girl! The guy who told me, he tells me he is a genius (I don't believe him) and I told him "I don't believe you! I'm going to find out!" Good for you!  Since you have an enquiring mind, maybe you could do some research about puritanical viewpoints, and why they cause so many problems.  Do people in Texas think you ought to turn out the lights before making love?  To a European, that might be scandalous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. The question is Do they find having sex with other partners during a marriage ACCEPTABLE?  Do people usually do things they find unacceptable?
> 
> People do it in Texas, but it is not ACCEPTABLE!  Except to the folks doing it, right? The husband doesn't say "Oh, honey. How was that guy you screwed last night?" And I'll bet the wife doesn't ask the husband if he's getting a little 'side action'.  How very considerate of both wifey and hubby.
> 
> 
> I gasped because I was not expecting to see breasts! They are supposed to be covered! Only in some places.   Did I like it? Well, I found it interseting that all the breasts were no bigger than B cups! I wondered if perkiness was truely THAT important to the french (while Americans can like big breasts that aren't as perky as small ones). Ah, I suppose I was shocked that they were revealing breasts.  Some Americans like perky too, you know.  And some French ladies have expansive chests.
> 
> 
> I don't believe him! That's why I came here to learn more!
> 
> 
> YES! Right now, I'm curious as to their position on nudity and sex in general. Like in Japan, they make cartoons sexy on purpose, even though kids are watching it, but at the same time, they don't expect the kids to talk about sex. In America, cartoons are not so obviously sexy. And parents even LIE to their children about sex so they WON'T know about it! Those are some very sick parents.  LIES are UNACCEPTABLE!  To lie to one's children is scandalous.  It's much worse than bare boobs.  Really it is.


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## GenJen54

quitejaded said:


> Thankyou for all the welcomes. This forum looks awesome!!
> 
> So the french aren't so scandalous? No more scandalous than us 'Merkins.  Are they atleast more open with nudity? In general, I would say yes, which is more in keeping, as has already been noted, by many European countries' general attitudes towards nudity.  We have too much of a stigma against seeing a naked bosom, which according to nature, was intended to feed and nuture our offspring.  Because this thing my friend's sister plays in looks like something we'd see in a broadway musical (minus the exposed breasts). I take it you've not seen the original version of the _Will Rogers Follies_, or the revamped version of _Cabaret_, or _Equus_ (naked man), or countless other "Broadway" shows where nudity is, well, just there.  Again, I reference Las Vegas, where these "cabaret-type" revues are very popular.  The women wear extremely intricate costumes save for the bits of fabric across their breasts.  I guess the costumers were trying to save some money.  I attended the "Moulin Rouge" in France with my parents  when I was fifteen.  It wasn't a big deal then.  It's not a big deal now. Something that is supposed to be tasteful. I don't know why it's not tasteful to many, many people.   This type of show is a far cry from the seedy stripjoints that once lined Times Square or parts of New Orelans. I could be wrong. And sorry, I forgot what exactly the thing is called.
> 
> Also, my friends have a friend who moved to france and she said she sees naked people in advertisements!  Yes, naked (or nearly naked) women advertise products such as cellulite reducers, body lotions and shower gels.
> 
> I wanted to know what other scandalous things the french find acceptable.
> 
> badgrammar, it IS bad for people to be topless in America. In fact, its ILLEGAL to walk around naked in most places!  It might be illegal, but that does not necessarily make it scandalous.   Some people find capital punishment scandalous and that's perfectly legal in the U.S.
> 
> 
> I gasped because I was not expecting to see breasts! They are supposed to be covered! Says who? Did I like it? Well, I found it interseting that all the breasts were no bigger than B cups! I wondered if perkiness was truely THAT important to the french (while Americans can like big breasts that aren't as perky as small ones). I did once read an article (in French) that noted French men preferred their women to have breasts shaped like champagne glasses (the "flat" glasses, not the elongated flutes).  They also compared women whose breasts were large and heavy to cows' udders.  I suppose there is an aesthetic for every culture.  Many American men prefer plastic.


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## quitejaded

> Who's definition of scandalous?



The US.



> Nudity in advertising is common in many countries in Europe and in other parts of the world that don't share the American habit of pretending to find the human body shameful.



Okay, so you are answering my question?! They ARE MORE OPEN to nudity.




> I go topless in both warm weather months, and it doesn't bother me a bit.


It's BAD if you are a GIRL. Are you a girl? You're not allowed to expose your breasts in public! It's hick or the manner of an uneducated person if you are a boy.




> Do people in Texas think you ought to turn out the lights before making love? To a European, that might be scandalous.


Oh, is it? In Texas, WOMEN want the lights off because they think their bodies are ugly. Also, sometimes it can set the mood. I don't think men really want to turn off the lights, especially if they person they are having sex with is sexy. 



> Except to the folks doing it, right?



No, not even to them. They are so ashamed they have to keep it a secret!



> And I'll bet the wife doesn't ask the husband if he's getting a little 'side action'. How very considerate of both wifey and hubby.



So I guess the boy told me a lie about cheating being a good thing in France!




> Some Americans like perky too, you know. And some French ladies have expansive chests.


I know that. I know A LOT of Americans like perky. But there is also a stereotype that they like big ones. I don't look at pornography regularly nor am I an expert, but I know there are some where the girls have C cups. Then I suppose a special fetish will have D cups +, but I'm talking about generalities, I suppose. Also, I know some girls in France have big boobs. I didn't say that I think they all have small boobs. I was just wondering if that was the French stereotype fetish like big boobs is the American stereotype fetish or Shapely legs is the Latin America stereotype fetish.



> Those are some very sick parents. LIES are UNACCEPTABLE! To lie to one's children is scandalous. It's much worse than bare boobs. Really it is.



Hey, stop toying with me! I'm trying to figure things out!


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## quitejaded

> or nearly naked



I am not talking about NEARLY NAKED. I'm talking about NAKED.




> that's perfectly legal in the U.S.


No its not! Its a huge debate!!




> Many American men prefer plastic.


Because that's the only way to get both worlds. Big AND perky at the SAME TIME.


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## jimreilly

Not only do different cultures find different things scandalous, but individuals within those cultures are not necessarily all of the same opinion. This is as true of France as it is of the USA.

Is it more "scandalous" to accept a certain amount of infidelity, or to pretend that such things never happen? Or to marginalize some people for their natural behavior? Perhaps a good Colorado Reverend could give us some counsel on this, from his wisdom and experience.....

Hypocrisy, I presume, is everywhere, even in France. But maybe just a little less of it than in the USA?


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## cuchuflete

> Who's definition of scandalous?
> 
> 
> The US.



Sorry to be so disagreeable, but not everyone in the US thinks that way.  Some of us find puritanism to be a narrow-minded, pernicious attitude.  There is nothing shameful about the human body.  There is nothing wrong with women's bodies, and it's really a shame that they have been taught that if they don't look like a silicone-filled porno model they should be ashamed to make love with the lights on.


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## Trina

quitejaded said:


> [...]





> Are they at least more open with nudity? Because this thing my friend's sister plays in looks like something we'd see in a broadway musical (minus the exposed breasts). Something that is supposed to be tasteful. I could be wrong. And sorry, I forgot what exactly the thing is called.


It is interesting to note that the majority of the dancers in these nightclubs (Le Moulin Rouge, Crazy Horse etc) are not French. They come from Australia, New Zealand, England and even the USA. (Gasp). Also, the French do not make up the major part of the audience. They are usually tourists. Again, it is worth noting that you can see similar shows in Las Vegas (including bare breasted women dancing with giant pythons)



> badgrammar, it IS bad for people to be topless in America. In fact, its ILLEGAL to walk around naked in most places!


It is the same thing in France or anywhere else in the world. I'm sure anyone walking down the  Champs Elysées bare-breasted would be arrested on the spot. 
In fact, it would be considered uncouth for men to go around bare-chested. Generally speaking, even in seaside areas such as Nice, the French would not be seen walking around the streets in bikini tops or bare chested. These are tourists.



> People do it in Texas, but it is not ACCEPTABLE!


Again, this is the same anywhere. 



> Well, I found it interseting that all the breasts were no bigger than B cups! I wondered if perkiness was truely THAT important to the french


I would think it had a lot more to do with comfort. The can-can is fast and involves a lot of movement. I'm sure it would be a lot more comfortable (for the dancer and perhaps for the audience) if the dancer had perky B cups as opposed to Double E cups!! If the dancer had Double E, she would be likely to give herself blackeyes!




> YES! Right now, I'm curious as to their position on nudity and sex in general.


I would say that they had a healthy view of "sex and nudity in general"


Edit: Perhaps we should start a thread: "All Australians wrestle crocodiles" based on two Crocodile Dundee movies and Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter.


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## quitejaded

> Sorry to be so disagreeable, but not everyone in the US thinks that way. Some of us find puritanism to be a narrow-minded, pernicious attitude. There is nothing shameful about the human body. There is nothing wrong with women's bodies, and it's really a shame that they have been taught that if they don't look like a silicone-filled porno model they should be ashamed to make love with the lights on.


Can you just GO with me on this? Think for example being a teacher in spanish class and a kid asks you "Do they really like Juanes in Mexico?". Are you going to sit there and tell the kid "Well, everyone is different and blha blah blah" or are you going to thell him "Juanes is really popular in Mexico"??



> It is interesting to note that the majority of the dancers in these nightclubs (Le Moulin Rouge, Crazy Horse etc) are not French. They come from Australia, New Zealand, England and even the USA. (Gasp). Also, the French do not make up the major part of the audience. They are usually tourists. Again, it is worth noting that you can see similar shows in Las Vegas (including bare breasted women dancing with giant pythons)


Oh, I did not think of that!!

God, Trina, thankyou for actually making some sense. Half the people here are just generally unhelpful for whatever reason. The whole point of this forum is to help.


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## cuchuflete

> Can you just GO with me on this? Think for example being a teacher in spanish class and a kid asks you "Do they really like Juanes in Mexico?". Are you going to sit there and tell the kid "Well, everyone is different and blha blah blah" or are you going to thell him "Juanes is really popular in Mexico"??


Just Go with you?  What does that mean?  Are you expert in dark room petting?  Your attitudes may be very common and widely accepted in your large corner of the world, but they surely do not consitute normalcy around where I live.

Juanes?  Sorry, I don't know what that is.  When my kids ask questions, they get honest answers, even if those are difficult, uncomfortable, and make the parents have to work a little.

Just sweeping things under the rug for the sake of local social convention is worse than provincial.  It's dishonest.


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## Iona

quitejaded . There are too many questions for me as I'm having problems pushing my breasts into their feathered B cup this morning . Seriously ,I think  it would be a good idea for you to  move about a bit ,  both within the U.S and outside of it , if ever you can .This way you can  meet new people  ; there's a whole new world  out there to discover, even outside Texas.I still think this could be  a sendup!


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## maxiogee

quitejaded said:


> People do it in Texas, but it is not ACCEPTABLE! The husband doesn't say "Oh, honey. How was that guy you screwed last night?"



And I don't believe that anyone in France says that either!
There may be a small proportion who condone their partner's affairs (just as there may be elsewhere, also) but I don't imagine the partner's discuss it openly.

The individuals may discuss their paramours with their same-sex friends, but that happens anywhere also.

Your comment that "I wanted to know what other scandalous things the french find acceptable." cannot be answered until we know what you thunk scandalous. Some forer@s have teased you about what they understand by the meaning of the word, so by now you probably relaise that it is a subjective judgement - your 'scandalous' might be someone else's 'yeah, whatever'. The information you seek is a good chance to examine your own particular prejudices and opinions and see why you hold them. I see a lot more flesh (male and female) portrayed in 'everyday' shots of a Californian beach area - even on the streets (I recall seein g a shot of a bikini-clad young woman on roller-blades zipping along the pavement, and hardly drawing a glance from those she passed), than I would ever see in Ireland. But I don't see it as scandalous.
I see that you gave "The US" as the source of your definition of "scandalous" when asked about it. Do you think that everyone in the US subscribes to that definition? Or are you taking 'public convention' to equal general public agreement with the strictures on nudity? 
Suppose a large amount of people - in any country - disapproved of the overall attitude to something like nudity, how easy would it be to get that changed?


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## May-Lynn

About such a topic I think that nobody is right and nobody is wrong... This forum helps us to understand other people in the world... and to be more tolerant... isn't it ?

Nudity is not shameful on Rembrandt paintings... why should it be shameful in advertising ? I think it is depending on the context. On the other hand I admit that nudity is not necessary to promote a yogurt brand.

Psssssst Iona... I do not like snails... I prefer frog thighs


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## Chaska Ñawi

quitejaded said:


> Half the people here are just generally unhelpful for whatever reason. The whole point of this forum is to help.



I think everyone here has been extremely helpful ...........especially in providing what is apparently a badly needed perspective.

I myself find feathers _especially _scandalous.  There ought to be a law against wearing those in public.  And to all you people openly describing your befeathered B-cups - shame on you for bringing this into open debate.


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## claretranslates

OOOPS! I didn't know you were a girl. Sorry.


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## judkinsc

Quitejaded, it seems to me that you should go travel in these countries.  Once having been to a few besides the US, you'll realize that in culture, as in life, there is no such thing as an absolute.  Stereotypes, which the discussion in this thread is revolving around, are a form of absolute.  Americans are prudish; Americans are fat, loud, and rude; Americans are lascivious; etc. are all stereotypes.  If you collected a list of stereotypes that have been applied to the US or any other country, you'd find that they conflict with each other: Americans cannot be both totally prudish and totally lascivious, for instance.

It is, in my experience, common habit for a person to consider another country to be morally liberal, or not, based on only a passing glance.  It might surprise you that some of the French I've met have the same opinion of Americans as sexually liberal as some Americans have of the French.  It is all a matter of seeking absolutes, where no absolutes exist.

Everything is subjective, everything is contextual.  That's life.  To ask for an absolute, or to seek one in everything, is better left to mathematics and not culture.  A person is not locked into a mold when they are born into a culture.  The person might fall within a broad range of what is commonly termed that culture, or they might reject it completely and decide to live in France for the rest of their life because they appreciate that culture more.

So, go travel.  Broaden your horizons, as it were.  One of the phrases in common usage among the French is "well...that depends..." ("...ca dépend...")


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## Iona

What constitutes scandalous is very subjective.All the French I know find  Child Beauty Pageants , as in the film 'Little Miss Sunshine',shocking . The idea of dressing up a very young girl  to look like Barby and dance like Britney is beyond  comprehension . Do you have them in Texas , Quitejaded? Well , every American I know hates them too, they are not commonplace ,  but if I were to judge all Americans by them I'd be scandalised. Of course everyone is allowed their personal  opinions about nudity and extramarital love affairs but be careful not to judge a nation by what it does with its feathers ; in my part of France they also used as filling for ski jackets , they are also sold in the form of dream-catchers !You should come over and see for yourself if you  get the chance.


----------



## Iona

Of course I'm using the word 'feather' as a metaphor in the above .Please don't take me literally.


----------



## Luke Warm

I find it very interesting how many people so strongly criticized and laughed at the original questions and how the responses changed only once it was apparent that the questions were coming from a female.  The last several posts have made some interesting points that, more than anything, expose the fact that we ALL have very different experiences and, because of those varied experiences, have varied perspectives and opinions.  
 
quitejaded, you came to this forum because you had some questions about subjects that are apparently shocking and scandalous for you and, likely because of the usual openness and candidness of the discussions on this forum, felt comfortable enough to ask them here.  We are all raised believing various misconceptions which can only be exposed through experience.  Like others here, I highly recommend travel, preferably visiting new places for a duration long enough to shed your preconceptions of the new place.  It will allow you to see your own world in an entirely different way and will help you learn more about yourself and who you want to be beyond the person you are told you are supposed to be with the ideas you are supposed to have.  And if travel isn’t an option, even in your own community there are probably people with very different points of view than what you accept as “the way things are”.  Get to know them.  And there are books—lots and lots of books; read them without bias.  It’s nearly impossible to know who you are until you’ve seen other perspectives without judgment.  
 
And for the rest of us, let’s not assume anything about each other.  People generally don’t come on here being a**es, so even if we find a thread or a particular post less than insightful, either respond with respect or don’t respond at all.  One of the reasons I like this forum is because of the usual mutual respect even in disagreement, so let’s not turn this into a run-of-the-mill locker room forum where people have to be afraid of thinking the wrong thing and being ridiculed.  After all, we can only post from our individual, varied perspectives.


----------



## AGATHA2

Cracker Jack said:


> the French people are not as scandalous as their EU neighbors.


 
What do you meen by "scandalous"


----------



## natasha2000

Quitejaded, if you consider naked breasts scandalous, don't ever come to Barcelona, especially not to its beach. you'll need a medical assistance when you see all those naked breasts, both young and beautiful, and old and baggy, hanging up to the waist. Furthermore, there are also many women (and men) in tangas, as well as completely nude, all mixed in the same beach, and nobody gives a damn...

This is called freedom and openess of the mind, and liberation of the body. The best thing is to go swimming naked. When you try it once, you'll never want to put your bikini on again!

But this is on the beach.

I just cannot believe you believed yout friend that it is normal to see naked breasts on the streets of ANY city, not only in France...

About the term "scandalous"....

Well, if you call someone "scandalous" because they go around breast naked, you can also be very easily called "puritan and conservative".


----------



## LV4-26

quitejaded said:


> Half the people here are just generally unhelpful *for whatever reason*.


(my emphasis)
Hi quitejaded,
I think I know the reason why. It's because *the actual answer* to the title question is so dull and boring that nobody had the courage to give it as it is, unadorned with humourous comments or additional remarks. It's always the same answer : on the average, not more and not less than any other people. Not very stimulating, is it? But this is the only honest answer I feel entitled to give.


----------



## loladamore

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. It has told me a lot about quitejaded and various other forer@s, although not very much about France, unfortunately. I would like to avoid getting into a philosophical-ethical-moral debate, but there are a few comments I would like to make.

First of all, I would like to say that quitejaded should be encouraged and supported for having asked the questions she did in the first place. She wants to find out if the information she was given was reliable or not. Good for her! Unfortunately, a few words like 'scandalous' set us all off down paths (side-tracks?) where she never intended to lead us.

As for the breast-gasp relation, no friend of mine has ever shown me a topless photo of any of their relatives. I think I would be surprised if they did, and I might even gasp. But that doesn't mean I would be shocked or find it "scandalous". Quitejaded never said she found it to be morally reprehensible, but she was taken aback - she wasn't expecting it. I remember being surprised by French ads as a teenager. There was one for cheese or yogurt (I can't remember exactly- it was a while back) that involved naked breasts in quite a nonchalant manner, which was seen as "normal" advertising in France. It was new for me.

Perhaps your friend was referring to the concept of *open marriages* in France. I don't know how common they are, but they do exist. Any data anyone?

As for the the relationship between attitudes towards nudity and sex and the levels of sexual violence in a given society, that's a very dangerous way to go. I read some "scandalous" articles and statistics on gang rape in parts of France last year. It's no simple matter to point to causes and effects, and it's certainly not as straightforward as saying "they're more open about sex" = "it's better for women". Ask a French feminist (preferably not a deconstructionist if you like short answers).

Finally, I would like to second Luke Warm's comment:





> And for the rest of us, let’s not assume anything about each other.


Sound advice.

Right. I will take my french leave. Off to get some french ticklers and a spot of french kissing.


----------



## May-Lynn

loladamore said:


> Perhaps your friend was referring to the concept of *open marriages* in France. I don't know how common they are, but they do exist. Any data anyone?



You probably allude to the civic agreement of solidarity (PACS : Pacte Civil de Solidarité). This not really a marriage but rather a kind of contract which is intended to manage (?) material goods between two (heterosexual or homosexual) persons who live together.


----------



## loladamore

No, May-Lynn. I meant *open marriages*, ie, those in which the partners agree that each is free to engage in extramarital relationships (like Sarte and de Beauvoir). How do you say that in French?


----------



## Agnès E.

loladamore said:


> No, May-Lynn. I meant *open marriages*, ie, those in which the partners agree that each is free to engage in extramarital relationships (like Sarte and de Beauvoir). How do you say that in French?


I can't think of a French word for that. The funny thing is that the article quoted has even no translation to French. I therefore guess that this is not a typically French thing.


----------



## loladamore

I can think of plenty of reasons why Sarte and de Beauvoir can be considered anything but "typical"; I don't see why their relationship should be any exception!
Perhaps the person who misinformed quitejaded was thinking of some such atypical French couple when he made that generalization. 
So, no "open marriage" article in French wiki, but there is one for *polaymour*, which is essentially the same concept, I suppose. That's probably not very common either, or at least not openly so.


----------



## LV4-26

loladamore said:


> That's probably not very common either, or at least not openly so.


The word is certainly not common : I'd never seen or heard it before.


----------



## quitejaded

> Or are you taking 'public convention' to equal general public agreement with the strictures on nudity?


Yes!



> About such a topic I think that nobody is right and nobody is wrong... This forum helps us to understand other people in the world... and to be more tolerant... isn't it ?


And you in particular are not helping. >:/



> why should it be shameful in advertising ?


Yes because in America, nudity is equated with sex like someone said earlier! If you are nude or selling something with a nude person, you are trying to attract people with sexuality. That's how its seen in America. And that is shameful to Americans. What do you say to that?



> Quitejaded, it seems to me that you should go travel in these countries.


I want to travel! Mind you people, please, I am in secondary school! I don't have money and my parents aren't going to send me to these places!

Can you understand that I am trying to compare France to the United States? How else can I understand it?



> What do you meen by "scandalous"


Well, I'm asking for someone who knows what is scandalous or shameful in the US to tell me what they do in France that would not be accepted here. 



> Quitejaded, if you consider naked breasts scandalous, don't ever come to Barcelona, especially not to its beach.


I'm not going to stay away from other countries because people are nude. I just want to understand that they see nothing wrong in being nude. Or its not sexual. Or maybe it IS sexual and they LIKE SEX so much that they don't hide it. Is that it??



> Well, if you call someone "scandalous" because they go around breast naked, you can also be very easily called "puritan and conservative".


I don't care. I'm trying to understand a country.

*LOLADAMOUR* Thankyou for being considerate!
So nudity IS normal there. Alright! In advertising.
So they don't equate sex and nudity like we do in the US.
Could it be that people are also open to talking about sex and having sex at younger ages than in the US?


----------



## judkinsc

Quitejaded, I think you are running into a few different problems with these posts.
First, the words you're using are not the ones that you seem to mean.
Second, the words you're using are ones that have been used in debates before, and to which some people react strongly.
Third, if you want information, simply ask for a comparison on some point, without giving a statement that "SoAndSo is X" (i.e. the French are scandalous).
Fourth, language is relative, but some words are more relative than others.  Scandalous can mean something entirely different to you than it does to someone else.  It is best to be specific and provide context, such as examples, and ask for perspectives on them.

And just as a generality, it is a trend in language to want to say "X is Y" and create facts.  Unfortunately, language does not apply to real life in this way: there are always exceptions to the rule.  For example, in a fairly standard idea, that "the sun will come up tomorrow," there is a statement of fact, but you do not _know_ that the sun will rise tomorrow, it's just a fairly likely occurance based on past data.  This is what I was touching on in my last post, concerning absolutes; language desires to create absolutes and state that "X is Y," since it is simple and it transmits a solid meaning.  Unfortunately, there are no absolutes in life.  It would be better to say "X is usually, but not always Y, except that in certain cases it can seem to be Y, insomuch as the considerations of these exceptions are not typically considered as bearing upon the accuracy of the statement."  Now, I wrote that in a complicated way on purpose, since trying to communicate meaning is inevitably a complicated business.  Most simply, there are always exceptions to the rule.  The exception to this rule is that sometimes the exceptions don't exist within the current paradigm: in math, for instance, 1 + 1 = 2 no matter how you add it up, as you are using a system that relies upon the steady, absolute values of 1 + 1, and their absolute relation to 2.

Thus, in considering a matter, consider that there are no absolutes in life, but only in math.  Consider also that it is a tendency of language to request absolutes, but that this tendency is not necessarily good.  To require an absolute is to over-simplify the matter and to lose much of the context and the meaning.  It is simply difficult to express all of the exceptions to something, particularly when "brevity is the soul of wit."

To add a couple more relevant quotes: Voltaire (in an English translation) once said "Doubt is not a comfortable condition, but certainty is absurd;" and H. Munro Saki has said "A little inaccuracy saves a ton of explanation."

So, bear in mind that everything must be doubted, as there are no absolutes--no certainties--and that to transmit meaning, people inevitably over-simplify the matter.  And in a more direct reply to your topics, why not ask, in a new thread, what people consider scandalous in their counties.  Provide some examples of what you consider scandalous, and ask specifically about France, dancing, nudity, and photography if those are what you are interested in.


----------



## quitejaded

I know there are no absolutes! I'm asking for generalities! I don't care to inspect exceptions when I don't even know the generality.


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## LV4-26

quitejaded said:


> Could it be that people are also open to talking about sex and having sex at younger ages than in the US?


"Having" sex, I'm not sure. What I've heard from Americans living in France is that the French seem to *talk* about sex more openly. (while talking about money less openly, but that's another story ). But there, I'm only echoing what I've heard on TV...I'm unable to compare myself. It could be easily explained by a weaker pressure on the part of religious authorities.


----------



## jimreilly

Chaska Ñawi said:


> I think everyone here has been extremely helpful ...........especially in providing what is apparently a badly needed perspective.
> 
> I myself find feathers _especially _scandalous. There ought to be a law against wearing those in public. And to all you people openly describing your befeathered B-cups - shame on you for bringing this into open debate.


 
*I think synthetic feathers are OK, but ones stolen (or dropped) from real birds are scandalous. Besides, many birds carry vermin, and.....*

*This thread seems to mostly deal with two areas--*
*1) the differences between what individuals anywhere might find scandalous and the nature of "scandalous", and *
*2) possible national differences in what is culturally acceptable or scandalous.*

*I am shocked, shocked, that people would treat such serious topics in a humorous manner! not at all helpful--unless one realizes that such humor feeds off the odd assumption that standards in one place or for one person are (or should be) universal. So I hope if this discussion is helpful at all it will be in making us all realize that our own assumptions (however restrictive or open they may be) are not always shared.*


----------



## Trina

quitejaded said:


> I know there are no absolutes! I'm asking for generalities! I don't care to inspect exceptions when I don't even know the generality.


Ay there's the rub... (to quote Hamlet)
Sweeping generalisations tend to antagonise people ( I know they annoy the hell out of me!) This is because there are usually more exceptions than generalities. Sweeping generalisations are very often WRONG!
I think your friend may have led you up the garden path. 
It would be similar to me showing you a picture of a kangaroo and telling you they were hopping everywhere in Sydney streets.  Kangaroos, like bare-breasted dancers, are not walking (or hopping) round in the streets. 




> I want to travel! Mind you people, please, I am in secondary school! I don't have money and my parents aren't going to send me to these places!


Congratulations and well done!  I'm not certain I would have been brave enough to return and keep posting when I was your age, especially in a thread which has become quite heated. 



> Can you understand that I am trying to compare France to the United States? How else can I understand it?


I'm not certain that you can. The reason I'm saying this is because your view of US opinion on sex and nudity may not be quite right. This may be an age issue but I believe that you are projecting your view on sex and nudity onto the whole of the US. 




> Well, I'm asking for someone who knows what is scandalous or shameful in the US to tell me what they do in France that would not be accepted here.


Someone else suggested that this is a very subjective viewpoint. What is scandalous to some may be normal to another. Take gun ownership for example. Some will tell you that everyone has a right to be armed. Others believe that this is scandalous. Or capital punishment - again you will have opposing viewpoints.




> I'm not going to stay away from other countries because people are nude. I just want to understand that they see nothing wrong in being nude.


Again, I believe that there is no difference between what the French believe about nudity and what most other nationalities believe. The qustion may be more about age. For example, women in their mid-twenties or older tend to be more comfortable with their naked bodies than teenagers.



> I don't care. I'm trying to understand a country.


The best way to understand a country (if travel is not an option) is to read, see movies. Perhaps, you could find a French penfriend who is similar in age.

I think it is great that you are trying to learn more about the world around you and hopefully we don't scare you away!


----------



## maxiogee

quitejaded said:


> Half the people here are just generally unhelpful for whatever reason. The whole point of this forum is to help.



No, the whole point of the language forums is to help.
The whole point of this forum is _to discuss_, and if we are to discuss it helps if people have open minds - minds which have not been ready to believe what one person tells them, or to be affronted at the manners and customs of other cultures.

I think people here challenged you to question your own beliefs and your reasons for adhering to them - and that is surely "helpful" in anyone's language?


----------



## Outsider

Oh, thanks to this thread, I've just learned about nude cycling! Sounds like fun. 

P.S. Here's a question: didn't Spencer Tunick get into trouble once because of his nude photos in the U.S.? Or am I misremembering?...


----------



## Luke Warm

quitejaded said:


> Can you understand that I am trying to compare France to the United States? How else can I understand it?/quote]
> 
> Some (not all) Americans might find it shocking that the human form is considered beautiful in an artistic sense, so a naked body here or there is not only acceptable but desirable. While nudity and sex are not considered the same thing in France, sex, as it is the source of all our existences and is the primal urge that motivates so much of our behavior, is a thing to be appreciated and respected both as a form of reproduction and pleasure. Some (not all) Americans would be shocked that geese and baby lambs are tortured and milk is left to rot to bacteria laden states to produce some of the most amazing flavors known to man. Some (not all) Americans would be shocked at the accepted level of alcohol consumption in France and how well the average French person handles him or herself when inebriated. Americans might be shocked that the French are by law only allowed to work 35 hours per week, families with 5 or more children pay no tax, and the average French worker has 37 vacation days per year. Americans are often shocked at the apparent rudeness with which many French people interact with tourists.
> 
> Many French people (though not all) would be shocked that many (not all) Americans equate nudity and sex, the naked form being a source of embarassment and sex being considered a functional act never to be openly discussed for fear of our ears catching fire. Some French people would be shocked at how many Americans have no health insurance or the fact that the average number of vacation days per year for an American worker is 13. French people might disagree with the widely accepted American sentiment that America is the best country on the planet and that its citizens have the God-given right to consume beyond what this planet can support. French people may very well be shocked at the apparent vilification of alcohol in America and the drinking habits that vilification has caused. Some French people might also be shocked at the degree to which American television and marketing have come to dominate American culture and control American opinions.
> 
> So who's jaded now?


----------



## Iona

maxiogee said:


> Welcome, quitejaded, to our little corner of sanity in a strange world.
> 
> 
> I'm fascinated that someone in America, with access to a computer and all the oodles and oodles of pornography on the internet, is startled by the fact that some women expose their breasts for people to look at.
> 
> I've been asking myself a similar question .Why  don't you reseach France and the French  using today's technology .
> 
> I'm sorry for any 'unserious' answers I have given but I really did not think the question was being asked by a schoolgirl . I wonder how many French schoolgirls would write the final quote , but I mustn't generalise,perhaps  the same number as everywhere  else . I think when you ask questions and make assumptions about national steriotypes on this forum, you will get   all kinds of replies ,from all kinds of people ,who have had all kinds of experiences . I have had a few tussles on threads myself ,it's to be expected . A lot of people find Quitejaded's  question astonishing they have let her know in their own way , I don't think anyone was perticularly nasty and she sounds quite capable of defending herself .I have lived in France for years ,you can't judge France by what one person says   it would be  like judging the U.S on Peyton Place (or today's equivalent)
> 
> Did I like it? Well, I found it interseting that all the breasts were no bigger than B cups! I wondered if perkiness was truely THAT important to the french (while Americans can like big breasts that aren't as perky as small ones). Ah, I suppose I was shocked that they were revealing breasts.


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## GenJen54

Hi Quitejaded, 

I've noticed that the "problems" you are experiencing are *mostly* coming from fellow Americans, myself included, who don't appreciate being lumped into a general "whole" of what you perceive as US thinking, when our individual opinions may differ.   

Several Americans here disagree that nudity is scandalous.  Describing something that is scandalous is making a very subjective, individual opinion.  I highly doubt 300 million others will agree that nudity is "scandalous."   As someone earlier noted, some Americans find gun ownership scandalous, and I know for a fact being from a neighboring state that gun ownership is alive and well in Texas.    

Please learn to separate your opinion from that of the 299,999,999 other people who live in this country and stop making sweeping generalities.  I assure you that would help greatly.

I recommend you use phrases such as "Where I come from," or "In my household," or "The way I was raised," ...

That would help separate your opinion from the opinions of others who you *assume* agree with you.

I think someone hit the nail on the head.  In many parts of the U.S., sex education is still very much on the back burner.  It is shameful for a woman to breast feed her child in public, just as shameful for a woman to be seen topless on a beach.  However, go to Padre Island or Corpus Christi, Texas during Spring Break and I assure you you will see plenty of naked breasts and "scandalous" debauchery taking place among high schoolers and young college students alike. 

As to advertising, we don't have nudity in our advertising because simply there are laws prohibiting it.   Further, the way sexuality is expressed in  the US, I feel is much less subtle than it is in French.  When I lived in France (as I will again explain), it was not uncommon to see naked woman taking a shower, dousing herself with shower gel, and rubbing it on her body.  In context, there was nothing sexy about this, really, because she was not acting in a sexy way.  She was merely taking a shower, which is something most people I know do every day.  You also did not see her pubic region, which remained hidden by deft camera angles and positioning of her leg.  

Compare that with some of the vulgar and openly-sexual ads of "clothed" people (the Paris Hilton hamburger ad?), and you will see there is a great difference between nudity and sexual vulgarity.  

Americans are experts at the latter, even though many are not comfortable with the former.  The bottom line is, nudity is not necessarily sexual, and sexuality does not have to be conveyed with nudity.


----------



## Iona

I'm trying to think what might surprise you in France Quitejaded .Where I live in the French Alps I know that a lot of women find certain advertising billboards offensive because they consider them  degrading to women.Sometimes they are daubed with 'Sexism' and underwear companies etc are toning them  down now; I don't recall ever seeing anyone completely naked though. There is one particular well-known store in my town who did a Christmas window display a couple of years ago  in which a very life-like manequin was lying on a kitchen table in a thong and little else ;it caused a few traffic jams until it was removed because so many people objected to it (again because it was degrading to women) I think you'd be surprised that at my local pool a lot of women take off their bathing suits to use the communual showers .My British sister was rather astonished though I didn't even notice until she mentioned it. As far as sex goes ,I heard on the radio that the average French girl loses her virginity at seventeen as opposed to sixteen in the U.K -but  statistics are dangerous things and must sometimes be taken with a pinch of salt. French parents seem to be quite firm  about their children going out in the evening  and  like them to eat with the family. As a teacher ,I am sometimes surprised that girls can go to school with cut off tops and low slung jeans  ,but then I'm British and  had to wear a uniform  .I was also surprised to discover that smoking  was permitted in the lycées (in the school courtyard) when I first arrived but this has been stopped. The fact that Tampax and Always were  advertised on television stopped me in my tracks when I first arrived , but in retrospect what  really was there to be surprised about? As for affairs with the consent of spouses - I think it's the rare exception not the rule , I would never label that as a French thing .  The thing that surprises me most in France has nothing to do with bodies and sex .I have never understood why, in a country where the church and government are separate ,the holidays are often religious .I'm not complaining though and I like living here. This is just my point of view ;I am just one person out of the sixty something  million living in France.By the way ,  I would be interested to know what the window display of Victoria's Secrets is like in your part of the world .


----------



## Iona

Iona said:


> I think you'd be surprised that at my local pool a lot of women take off their bathing suits to use the communual showers.
> 
> By the way ,when I said  'communal'   I didn't  mean 'mixed' !


----------



## Luke Warm

Iona said:


> Iona said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'd be surprised that at my local pool a lot of women take off their bathing suits to use the communual showers.
> 
> By the way ,when I said 'communal' I didn't mean 'mixed' !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quitejaded might be more shocked then by German public spas which are coed and bathing suits are prohibited. There is a quite prominent, mainstream, state-supported, and accepted nudist culture here. Also, “tasteful” nudity is a somewhat regular occurrence on prime time television and in billboard and magazine advertising. By no means would I consider any of this “scandalous”. Despite the stereotypes, I think Germany might be more liberal than France in that regard.
Click to expand...


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## jimreilly

Nudity in communal (non-mixed) showers must vary around the world, for both men and women. I had always assumed that at gymns the world over men showered nude after working out (I have no experience in womens' showers). But now with immigrants from many countries living in Minneapolis one notices that many immigrant men remain partly clothed when they shower, or do not shower at all in the communal shower.

We always make assumptions based on our immediate surroundings.


----------



## ElaineG

> The fact that Tampax and Always were advertised on television stopped me in my tracks when I first arrived , but in retrospect what really was there to be surprised about?


 
I remember being surprised by a French Tampax ad, which I think does to some extent reflect a different cultural attitude towards the human body. Tampax are advertised on TV in the United States but usually in heavily euphemistic terms. 

One key thing is that when attempting to demonstrate the absorbency of a feminine sanitary product, the disembodied demonstration hands always use a mysterious bright blue liquid to demonstrate absorbtion. The liquid looks very hygienic and chemical, and nothing like menstruation.

Anyway, one day in Paris, my SO and I were watching a familiar seeming Tampax ad (swimming, running on the beach, etc.), when lo and behold, the demonstration hands appeared to demonstrate the absorbency of the product, and proceeded to place the tampon in a beaker of _red_ liquid.

We were shocked, and dare I say it, even scandalized. It was a subtle but explicit signal that the French were more comfortable publicly acknowledging what menstruation actually was (i.e., blood). After I had time to get used to it, I liked it -- given that nearly all women of a certain age menstruate every month, it's probably nothing to be ashamed of, but I knew I'd never see a similar ad in the U.S.!


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## cuchuflete

> but I knew I'd never see a similar ad in the U.S.!


 Maybe because Texans have blue blood?


----------



## maxiogee

Luke Warm said:


> quitejaded might be more shocked then by German public spas which are coed and bathing suits are prohibited.




Surely prudery goes a step too far when the mixing of the only two sexes we have available to us has to go under the name of "coed"? What is the 'educational' dimension of public spas?


----------



## natasha2000

maxiogee said:


> Surely prudery goes a step too far when the mixing of the only two sexes we have available to us has to go under the name of "coed"? What is the 'educational' dimension of public spas?


 
I would say it teaches us not to be ashamed of our bodies, no matter how they are. Many modern illnesses come out of the shame of our imperfect bodies. One of them is anorexia which becomes a serious problem of the modern society.

What's "coed"? Looked up in the diccionary but couldn't find.


----------



## Iona

Hello - I only know co-ed in terms of 'co-educational' which sounds  a bit scholastic for a public spa to me too. Perhaps it has another meaning that I am unaware of.


----------



## natasha2000

Iona said:


> Hello - I only know co-ed in terms of 'co-educational' which sounds a bit scholastic for a public spa to me too. Perhaps it has another meaning that I am unaware of.


Thanks, Iona, it makes a perfect sense.


----------



## maxiogee

Iona said:


> Hello - I only know co-ed in terms of 'co-educational' which sounds  a bit scholastic for a public spa to me too. Perhaps it has another meaning that I am unaware of.



Exactly, it has no other real meaning. It is applied by Americans to young women, exclusively to females! - who attend co-educational colleges. It seems to imply that they are different, in some noteworthy way, from their male colleagues, by virtue of their gender. To use co-ed about "mixed" public facilities which have nothing to do with education would imply, to me anyway, a strange view of such mixed facilities.


----------



## ElaineG

I think "co-ed" the adjective is used as shorthand, in American English at least, for mixed-sex facilities. Obviously, this is a change from the original use which was purely and explicitly educational.



> *2. *Open to both sexes: _a coed dorm; a coed pool._


 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/co-ed

But we are wandering into EO territory, and far off-topic indeed.


----------



## Luke Warm

ElaineG said:


> I think "co-ed" the adjective is used as shorthand, in American English at least, for mixed-sex facilities. Obviously, this is a change from the original use which was purely and explicitly educational.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/co-ed
> 
> But we are wandering into EO territory, and far off-topic indeed.


 
Dictionary.com defines coed as:
4.for or serving both men and women alike.
Though I admit that definition has strayed far from the anything having to do with education.

My point though, which seems to have been lost, is that the stereotypes placed on the French by Americans in regard to open nudity, perhaps better describe the Germans (as well as maybe some Northern European countries).  Though stereotypes in general, while perhaps at times to some degree valid, are just as easily contradicted and are therefore usually not a very good basis on which to build one's conception of a culture or people.


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## cuchuflete

Luke Warm said:


> My point though, which seems to have been lost, is that the stereotypes placed on the French by Americans in regard to open nudity, perhaps better describe the Germans (as well as maybe some Northern European countries).  Though stereotypes in general, while perhaps at times to some degree valid, are just as easily contradicted and are therefore usually not a very good basis on which to build one's conception of a culture or people.



Just checking in to contradict your stated stereotype of Americans placing stereotypes on the French.  One schoolgirl made a remark about the French.  That was rebutted by many other Americans.  Where's the stereotype?


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## Luke Warm

I'm from America. While maybe not presented here, stereotypes of the French, Germans, and Russians among others are rather widely used. That's not to say that everyone uses or believes in them, but certainly a fair number do. Stereotypes, especially regarding Germans, are a rather constant annoyance for me.


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## LV4-26

Back in 1969, how many young French people, about quitejaded's age, watched the movie Woodstock and thought "Wow, those young Americans are really comfortable with nudity"?


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## maxiogee

LV4-26 said:


> Back in 1969, how many young French people, about quitejaded's age, watched the movie Woodstock and thought "Wow, those young Americans are really comfortable with nudity"?



And they would have been right - *those* young Americans were. Others weren't.
A problem might have arisen if your young French people had thought to themselves, "Young Americans are really comfortable with nudity" - and that's what many posters to these threads have tried to focus on - the unfounded generalisation of a large group from one instance, or piece of "evidence" from a small and always unrepresentative sample.

If one says anymore than "All young Americans are young Americans" one begins to open oneself up to accusations of error


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## quitejaded

Wow, thank you to those of you with good information in your replies! I appreciate it!!

Yes, I am a school girl. A very curious school girl! Is that difficult to believe? Why?

No, I personally have no problem with seeing nudity (I wouldn't want to be nude anywhere unless I had a friend with me). I don't try to hide the Victorian Secret ads when they come on. And I like to talk about sex with my friends, but its taboo to speak about sex openly to just anybody. You won't get a job that way, either. But, I get squimish when my little brothers see sex scenes. Taking the advice of one of the moderators, what I have seen in the actions of people here and etiquette schools and on television, nudity is equated to sex and nudity seems to be accepted in an "artistic" form only. Some people are even more prude. There is a news story of a woman suing a school for what? For allowing her son to see breasts at the art museum. And some people (usually younger) are loose. Like the bare breasts in New Orleans or Spring break. Those people shoving their bare breasts aren't looked up to. From what I know, they are looked down apon in general by older people, authority and people who avoid that kind of lifestyle. Then again, I usually think of their breasts being used in a sexual manner. They're not having their breasts out just to have them out. 

WOW! RED LIQUID! Haha, I always wondered why here they use BLUE liquid. Yah, also, people try to hide their pads when they are buying them at the store. I realized how silly it is, so I don't hide it or try to avoid the male cashier. 



> One schoolgirl made a remark about the French.  That was rebutted by many other Americans.


Nobody refutted anything. They just started talking some sort of nonsense and jokes. 


> Stereotypes, especially regarding Germans, are a rather constant annoyance for me.


The only stereotype I have for Germans are that they are punctual, tidy people. And a vulgar stereotype is a fecal fetish.


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## jimreilly

Well, a curious schoolgirl and clearly a thoughtful one, too! I'm glad you have survived all the humor and side trips off the main route of the subject!


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## quitejaded

Thankyou. Well, now I am also wondering if the nudity might grab attention in france as it does in the US.

They say "sex sells" and they point to advertisements or CD covers that have women in basically a bra and short pants.
Do you think if that was done in France, it would have the same effect on the people? Even though they already get to see bare breasts in the advertisements?

I think an advertisement like that would be labeled sexual in the US because its a nude woman.


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## UrsusMaximus

Hi quitejaded,

As a Brit living in France ...

... there seems to be less tendency to use nudity to sell things unrelated to the body than there is in the US and the UK, but I say "seems" because I couldn't pretend to be an expert, especially as concerns the US. As someone else has said, in France you'll often see naked bodies used to sell body-related products such as cosmetics, skin products, etc., and while there may be questions raised about sexism/exploitation of women, I've never heard any complaints about indecency. Just as a (semi-relevant) anecdote: one of the most beautiful pictures of a naked woman I have ever seen was in France, about 20 years ago. It was an almost life-size picture in a chemist's window advertising (and I kid you not) a vaginal douche! The picture didn't show any "intimate bits" (it was taken from the side, with the woman squatting, her head in her arms, and her breasts hidden between them) but this was an example of using a beautiful female body to sell a product to women, not men. Still open to debate ... does it promote the idea "use our vaginal douche and you too can have a body like this!"? But I wouldn't say the French are totally blasé about nudity. If they were, it wouldn't work ;-)

As for the question of affairs: I get the impression that insofar as you can ever generalize about several million people (a question already thoroughly discussed in this thread), there is a rather split attitude. My guess is that virtually any French person you asked would say "You should be faithful to your spouse". But from what I've observed among acquaintances, friends-of-friends, etc., either there is more marital infidelity in France or those who indulge make less of an effort to cover their tracks. I certainly get the feeling that it's more widespread than in the UK (dunno about the US). This doesn't mean that the 'victim' partner is happy about it, but there seems to be a tradition/culture of women pretending not to notice what their husbands are up to, while at the same time being deeply hurt about it. There's the view "Yes, what my husband's doing is awful, but then all men are bastards, so what do you expect?" The late François Mitterand (a former president) was perhaps the most high-profile example in recent French history. I believe his mistress was even at his funeral. So yes, there is a difference in attitude ... I doubt whether Monica Lewinsky will be at Clinton's funeral!

As for personal modesty: I get the impression that there is quite a variety of attitudes. A number of people have mentioned toplessness/nudity on French beaches, and there is indeed a thriving naturist movement, with a large number of naturist campsites and clubs. Just to be clear; these are most definitely not sexual, but simply places for doing normal outdoor stuff (swimming, sport, hobbies, sunbathing, etc.) with no clothes. I spent a holiday on one a few years ago and it was wonderful! On the other hand, I would describe most of the French people I know personally as relatively prudish, by which I mean more prudish than me (which links in with what has been said on here about how you define 'scandalous' -- probably as 'things I wouldn't do'. None of the French people I know at all well would be comfortable about being naked in public, by which I mean naturist campsite, beach, etc.
To a large extent, I'd confirm what someone (?Luke Warm?) said about Germans conforming more closely to the image that many people have regarding the French, in terms of attitudes to _their own_ nakedness. I'd say the Dutch have a similar attitude. Again, this point is subject to the usual caveats about the validity of generalizations, but ... I've lived in the Netherlands and Germany; both countries have a fair number of saunas, in which nudity is the norm if not compulsory. They may have one day a week just for women, but otherwise the two sexes ('the only two we have' -- love that comment!) have no problem being naked together. But even in NL and D, there are plenty of people who would never take off their clothes in the company of others -- not even of the same sex. And even those who happily strip off in a sauna may well be as modest as non-sauna-users when they are elsewhere.​Right, this was excessively long for a first posting so I'll shut up and get back to deciding where to put the piano.


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## jimreilly

It would be interesting if there were a new thread on attitudes toward nudity, in what contexts it is permitted or encouraged, etc. that would include cultures the world over.

Do the more "prudish" countries produce, in a response, a "naturist" movement? Or is it the countries "in between" the poles of common nudity (which would be in warmer climates than here!) and total restriction which do so? That is, countries where prudishness reigns but there is also enough freedom to question it and arrange for "exceptions"?

Meanwhile, Ursus Maximus, the old rule about not placing a piano on an outside wall still holds, unless your dwelling is _extremely _well insulated from the temperatures that make nudity outdoors impractical during many periods of the year. Quite a first thread indeed--welcome!


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## badgrammar

The last posts made me think of something interesting:  When Ive been on summer vacation with French friends, for example sharing a large rental house with a pool, or on a boat with a few other couples and their kids, none of the women went topless.  I found this intersting, because I figured they would.  But in this context, where you are in fact with friends and their husbands, it would seem women are far less comfortable with nudity than when they are in a more anonymous situation - on a beach with their spouse, or with a girlfriend or their children.  

Perhaps because no one wishes to create any sexual tension in that sort of situation, because even though breasts are not shocking, when you are in a more intimate setting, you are aware that they can certainly excite the other sex.  Whereas in other situations, you don't care, because there is less ambiguity - if some unknown guy ogles your breasts from behind his sunglasses, you really don't care.  If it's your friend's husband...  ça change la mise, as they say.


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## djchak

Everyone loves sex, the French just admit it....

They view it as a pleasure, and through thier own cultural lenses, don't see what the big deal is.


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## quitejaded

> ça change la mise


What does that mean?

Yes, yes, thank you recent posters! This is fabulous!!


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## GenJen54

jimreilly said:


> It would be interesting if there were a new thread on attitudes toward nudity, in what contexts it is permitted or encouraged, etc. that would include cultures the world over.



No new thread needed.  Here's a jolly old one right here: CLICK!

For those so inclined, there are also other threads concerning nudity.  Just go to the "Advanced Search" feature, and search for "nudity" in the Cultural Discussions forum.


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## UrsusMaximus

quitejaded said:


> What does that mean?


A fairly pedestrian translation of "Ça change la mise" would be "That changes things", or "That changes everything". But I'm sure that on a forum such as this, someone can come up with something a bit zippier. 

(French translation of "zippy" being, as we all know, "fermeture-éclairesque")


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## jimreilly

Not zippy, but less direct:

It depends on how you see it/ how one sees it
The situation changes your opinion
It's different situation, isn't it?
It depends on where you're coming from
It changes your/one's viewpoint
You're (one is) seeing it differently
etc


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## badgrammar

Well, I believe "la mise" is literally how much you "have riding" on something, in terms of how much or what you have bet/stand to win or lose in a game.  So what I meant was it changes the weight of the possible outcome.  I suppose I said it in French because nothing similar popped to mind in English.

In this context, it means that baring your breasts to your friend's husband and perhaps causing sexual tension amongst friends is very different than just having some unknown person, who you will never speak to and never have anything to do with, get hot and bothered over your physical attributes.  You have much more to lose in the first situation - oh, there we go, that's it, the stakes are higher, the stakes change...  Something along those lines.


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## Gemini1096

To answer the original question to the original poster, QUitejaded, I suggest you read the article titled France vs. America, the sex front on Salon.com
dir.salon.com/story/sex/feature/2003/06/20/french/index.html


It is a study about the difference of attitudes between Americans and French toward sex. The results can be quite surprising : Americans have more partners (ie they are more promiscuous  and lose their virignity earlier than French. The French seem more monogamous and when they do have affairs, they are not one-night-stands, but long term cheating...
And because they stay more in couple, they have more sex. It makes sense : when you are single, you spend a lot of time to bring your partner into your bed while if you are in a couple, this whole chasing thing is already taken care of...


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