# Icelandic: Pronunciation of ll / rn /ur



## AmberShum

Hæ! I'm a beginner of Icelandic. I'm confused about the pronunciation of some syllables. Hope you could kindly help me figure it out.
1. ll (like in "sæll"). Ll is pronounced like tl or dl. But it, to me, doesn't sound like "tl" in English words like "turtle". Instead, it sounds more like /ti/ or /til/ in English but not the same.
2. rn (like in "barn"). Dn is pronounced like dn. But it doesn't sound like /dn/ in English word "golden".
3. ur (like in "Hollendingur"). I don't now how exactly "ur" in the ending of a word should be pronounce. It sounds a little bit like /uʃ/ in English, or a little more like "u sh" if you can speak Chinese. (Sadly, I can't pronounce thrilled r.)
I don't know if the syllables sound to you like the above. Or possibly there's something wrong with my hearing?...

Thank you in advance. Any discussions will be appreicated.


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## Daniel20

Firstly, welcome to the forum - another beginner to keep me company is always nice  A more experienced speaker can probably build on this or correct me, especially if they have linguistic knowledge. But I think what you're picking up on is actually what I really like about how Icelandic sounds. Icelandic is a very airy language, and I think that's what you're hearing when you're not sure how they sound - the aspiration in the pronunciation. 



> 1. ll (like in "sæll"). Ll is pronounced like tl or dl. But it, to me, doesn't sound like "tl" in English words like "turtle". Instead, it sounds more like /ti/ or /til/ in English but not the same.



Sæll probably isn´t a good example, as it´s a little sharper - maybe gull is better. Whilst it is made equivalent to tl, you´re right that there are differences. This sound is difficult for some, because it requires you to push air out the side of your mouth whilst pronouncing the "ll". I guess one way of attempting to do this is pronounce "turtle", but leave your tongue in the "t" position and try and say the "le" part. 



> 2. rn (like in "barn"). Dn is pronounced like dn. But it doesn't sound like /dn/ in English word "golden".



Like above, it´s almost like the "n" doesn´t exist, and is just replaced by air. 



> 3. ur (like in "Hollendingur"). I don't now how exactly "ur" in the ending of a word should be pronounce. It sounds a little bit like /uʃ/ in English, or a little more like "u sh" if you can speak Chinese.



This one's a bit more difficult to explain. It's not a hard r at the end, and like the 2 suggestions above is because the r is a little more aspirated. So when the trill on the r is pronounced, it has a bit of extra air. This, for me, actually makes the trilled r sound easier to pronounce. 



> (Sadly, I can't pronounce thrilled r.)



It took me ages to learn!


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## Silver_Biscuit

They don't sound like turtle and golden because those words (at least the way I say them) have vowel sounds between the consonants, (TUR-tǝl, GOL-dǝn). In Icelandic these are consonant clusters so you need to try and eliminate the vowel.

You can practice ll by trying to do a sort of Donald Duck impression, Daniel is right you need to get more air into it. Sæll and gull should have the same sounds, though. Thinking about what my tongue is doing when I say sæll, it is never really in the position I would use to make English t, there is more of it in contact with the roof of my mouth, lying flat against it and slightly further back. I think it's more like dl for me, but the thing is to try and make it as much as possible one sound rather than saying t/d and then l.

For r, you don't necessarily need the trilled r but you should be trying to make 'Icelandic r' rather than 'English r'. When I'm speaking English (with my southern English accent) I make r using my upper teeth and lower lip, the tongue is not really involved. It is obviously impossible to trill this r. In Icelandic it's all tongue against the ridge just behind your teeth. You can basically speak English using both methods, because they make a similar r sound, but for the airiness of Icelandic you need to use the Icelandic method. In rn you need to make actual contact, but for ur you put your tongue in the general position but so that air can flow between. Ur does kind of sound like ush (to me). Rn was one of the hardest sounds for me to learn (and rl) because I had such a hard time getting the r right. The tn / dn sound is easy enough, it's very similar to as in vatn. 

Alex is more of a linguistics person and he'll probably be able to give you a more scientific answer.


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## Segorian

> 1. ll (like in "sæll"). Ll is pronounced like tl or dl. But it, to me, doesn't sound like "tl" in English words like "turtle". Instead, it sounds more like /ti/ or /til/ in English but not the same.



It is true that textbooks usually give the pronunciation of _ll_ as ‘dl’ or ‘tl’. However, suggesting that an ordinary d or t is involved is entirely misleading. The _ll_ is pronounced by producing an occlusion with the (right or left) side of the tongue, resulting in a sound reminiscent of a d or t which is immediately followed by an unvoiced l (unlike the voiced l in a word like ‘turtle’).

The unvoiced l is extremely common in Icelandic and contributes to its "airy" characteristics described by Daniel20 and Silver_Biscuit above.


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## Segorian

> 2. rn (like in "barn"). Dn is pronounced like dn. But it doesn't sound like /dn/ in English word "golden".



Historically, the pronunciation of _rn_, as in _barn_ (compare also _rl_, as in _karl_), has evolved from a mediaeval ‘rn’ (where the r may originally have been closer to that of certain British dialects of today than to that of modern Icelandic) to a ‘r(d)n’ (where the r is the modern trilled version and the (d) is not d, but a d-like sound produced at the place of pronunciation of n) to a ‘(d)n’ (a modification of the previous pronunciation where the r has been dropped).


By the 20th century, the ‘(d)n’ pronunciation had been adopted by the majority of Icelanders, although the two other pronunciations also survived. Today, the ‘r(d)n’ pronunciation is again gaining ground, probably on account of the training of those who are called upon to read texts (teachers, newsreaders etc.).


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## Segorian

> 3. ur (like in "Hollendingur"). I don't now how exactly "ur" in the ending of a word should be pronounce. It sounds a little bit like /uʃ/ in English, or a little more like "u sh" if you can speak Chinese. (Sadly, I can't pronounce thrilled r.)



First, the u in the _ur_ ending is generally quite similar to the Japanese u. Second, although produced close to the place of pronunciation of the trilled r, the r in _ur_ is not a trill, but either a flap or a fricative (an “airy” sound), depending on the speaker and the context.


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## Daniel20

Segorian, whilst we´re on the topic, and sorry if this is a silly question but I´m not around natives much (at all). The word raðherra (minister) seems to have that typical trilled r at the start and then the more airy r´s for the "herra". Am I hearing this right? I guess the same logic stands for other words like this, but I can´t remember any others!


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## Segorian

Not a silly question at all. I believe you’re hearing this right. The lighter the stress on a syllable, the ‘lighter’ the r is likely to be. Therefore—to expand your example—the double r in _herra_ is usually not quite the same as the double r in _ráðherra._


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## AmberShum

Segorian said:


> The unvoiced l is extremely common in Icelandic and contributes to its "airy" characteristics described by Daniel20 and Silver_Biscuit above.



Sorry, it may sound silly, but what exactly is an unvoiced l?

I know very few Icelandic words and what I think may be wrong. But as far as I can see, it seems that some endings of Icelandic words are pronounced weakly and I don't know whether they should be pronounced.


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## Daniel20

An unvoiced l is just an l that's pronounced without the larynx. In this case, using the word sæll, the l is pronounced using air from, if you like, the d or t sound - tl.

I don´t think you should worry _too _much about the pronunciation at this stage, AmberShum. That will come with time and as you practice. I found listening to Icelandic radio and film clips helped quite a lot in learning how it sounds.


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## Segorian

AmberShum: If you are into phonology, the Icelandic unvoiced l is the “voiceless alveolar lateral fricative” (see the corresponding Wikipedia article). This sound occurs in different context in Icelandic. At the beginning of words, it is represented by _hl_: _hlakka_, _hlið_, _hljóð_, etc. It is characteristic of a number of other languages, including Welsh, and appears to occur in Taishanese, so maybe that is something you can refer to.


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## AmberShum

Thank you so much for all your help!! 
I'll try to practise.


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## AmberShum

Daniel20 said:


> I don´t think you should worry _too _much about the pronunciation at this stage, AmberShum. That will come with time and as you practice. I found listening to Icelandic radio and film clips helped quite a lot in learning how it sounds.



Thanks for your advice, Daniel20. I'll find some Icelandic radio or film clips.


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## Daniel20

AmberShum said:


> Thanks for your advice, Daniel20. I'll find some Icelandic radio or film clips.



http://vefutvarp.visir.is/player/#/ <-- Radio

Icelandcinema.com <-- films and stuff. Some are free. They have English subtitles.


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## AmberShum

Daniel20 said:


> http://vefutvarp.visir.is/player/#/ <-- Radio
> 
> Icelandcinema.com <-- films and stuff. Some are free. They have English subtitles.



Great! Thank you so much! I've bookmarked them!

It's easy to find some websites of Icelandic radio. But sources of Icelandic films, oh, are rare, not to mention those with subtitles.

Thank you!


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