# Political forum



## modgirl

A lot of people have written to me privately about the fact that there have been a lot of highly political posts on the *cultural* forum lately. I think that many are afraid to speak up for fear of being chided.

The impression is that the forum was set-up to help us learn more about various cultures of those who write on the forums.  When conversation even slightly drifts away from a thread's original purpose, usually a moderator will comment on it being "off-topic." Perhaps others feel differently, but do threads like "Bring *Our* Troops Home" (implying that the entire world has troops in Iraq) contribute to the topic of culture among various nations?

Would having a political forum make it easier for those who are seeking threads more of a cultural rather than political nature?


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## cuchuflete

Hi Modgirl,

I'm writing as a forero, not as a Mod.   

Politics is very much a part of every culture.  We have tried, so far, to define culture broadly.  It's not just about "The Arts and Language".   How people organize themselves, what they do under pressure, how they use power etc. are all expressions of culture.

I think it fits.  As with any other WR forum, there are threads we choose to read, and those we don't click on.

I cannot reply to your final question, as I've already said that, for me, politcal topics *are* cultural topics.  However, there may be merit in creating a sub-forum to separate political discussions from the rest.

Should we also segregate the innumerable culinary discussions?  Why? or Why not?

Does gastronomy have a more valid "cultural" credential than the way we govern ourselves?  I'm really not sure of the answer.  

You have raised a fascinating cultural question in your first line: What cultural---or is it strictly personal attribute--- leads people to write to one another to comment on the number of threads on a topic, rather than commenting in public?

You suggest it might be fear of being chided.  That may or may not have anything at all to do with the broad silence.   Foreros in general are fairly outspoken, you and me being the obvious exceptions that prove the rule.  When they don't care for something, Comms. & Suggs. is usually ablaze with indignant posts, and Mods get heaps of PMs and e-mails.

This thread seems like a nice safe place for all those with an opinion to raise a cry.

My temporary conclusion:  I'm happy to have political discussions in the Culture forum, and would have no heartburn at all if these were grouped separately.  I don't see a need, but wouldn't be even a little bit inconvenienced if things were re-arranged.  

regards,
Cuchu


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Modgirl*
> I think that many are afraid to speak up for fear of being chided.



I agree there have been some quite interesting, if not near-incendiary discussions on the forums as of late.  Some have been about worldy issues, others about issues that are more pertinent to US politics.  Those asking for "worldy" opinions enjoyed a higher number of responses than those whose central focus was the US. (The recent public school thread being one of them.)

There are several posters, myself among them, who do not always let our heads cool completely before we choose to post a reply.  Case in point, the Christmas/Christphobia thread.  However, if a forum member brings to the discussion a differing opinion that can: a) be supported by fact, and/or b) shed new light on the situation from a different cultural perspective, I don't know that anyone would chide them for that.   I certainly wouldn't. 

Arguements based in ignorance are vastly different from those based in fact and or personal passion.


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## modgirl

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> However, if a forum member brings to the discussion a differing opinion that can: a) be supported by fact, and/or b) shed new light on the situation from a different cultural perspective, I don't know that anyone would chide them for that. I certainly wouldn't.


 
Ah, I wasn't clear on that.  People were hesitant to speak about the growing number of highly-charged political posts being appropriate for the forum, not about being chided for their political beliefs.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## timpeac

I think it would be a mistake to try to separate the two, prinicipally because things are never black and white. Culture and politics seem completely mixed up and I think either we would have people ignoring the split as a thread takes twists and turns (the scope of a thread can be quite large and still remain "on-topic" or at least not off-topic enough for censure) or we would have half discussions as relevant points were deliberately left out because they touch on politics.

This sounds unworkable, confusing and I think potentially boring to me!!

Modgirl, was it just the fact that you were unsure if politics should enter into the culture forum that is the problem - or rather do you think they should not? If it is the former we can simply define culture as including politics and problem solved. If the latter, well as I say, it seems meaningless to separate politics from culture to me.

Just my grain of salt.


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## panjandrum

I don't like politics threads.
I don't like religion threads.
In these topics, there is enormous scope for complete misunderstanding. This is oh-so-easy even where there is a lot of cultural common ground - much more so in these forums.
In these topics, people frequently come with very firmly established points of view that this forum is not likely to shift. 

It seems to me that the purpose of some threads has been to promote a particular point *particular points* of view, not to promote discussion and seek the views of others.*

So when political or religious themes appear (it is almost always clear from the title) most of the time I just ignore them. I sometimes dip in just to see, and usually retreat very quickly.

I don't find the existence of the threads offensive, or oppressive - although they are somewhat in the way and irritating. 
I can live with that.

*Edited to remove potential for misunderstanding. The statement above reflects my view on a number of different posts on a number of different themes.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> A lot of people have written to me privately about the fact that there have been a lot of highly political posts on the *cultural* forum lately. I think that many are afraid to speak up for fear of being chided.



Just chided?  My self-esteem has been severely compromised on several occasions following some exchanges with other foreros! 

*Moderator intervention:   Speaking of going "off-topic"!!!...please debate the political topic in the Culture forum, and not in this thread.
Thank you.  C. 
* 
I think that foreros from all over the world have the right to ask txxxxxxxxxxxxxss[edited.] and I think we should be able to discuss this in this forum. 




			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> Would having a political forum make it easier for those who are seeking threads more of a cultural rather than political nature?


I don't think so. The word politics comes from the Greek word polis that means city (I sound like the guy in the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding!). I don't think you can't get more cultural than when you discuss politics! If people don't feel comfortable with certain topics, they can choose not to participate. There are certain topics discussed in some threads that I find extremely ridiculous, unfathomably shallow, and of no cultural value whatsoever. However, I don't pass judgment on those threads. I just don't participate.


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## cuchuflete

While this gets discussed, I just reviewed some recent threads in the Culture forum, and found a few instances in which members went beyond the political topics and got personal in their statements.  That's 'off-topic' in the worst way.

It's up to the Mods to remind people to debate the issues, not the personalities, and we have quite a job there.  It's also up to all of us as foreros to invoke Mod participation if anybody gets insulting.  If anyone in a political, social, sexual, or any other discussion cannot remember to argue facts and ideas, and not attack other foreros, they should be reminded instantly by whoever is participating in the thread.
We are all members of a community, and as such should not depend on the 'constables' to maintain peace and civility.

I like a good strong argument.  I don't care for mudslinging.  Perhaps this subject is part of Modgirl's concern with the number of political threads.   If it is...she can let us know...then it needs our collective attention and action.  

I used to be a mod in that forum.  I'm not any more.   If, as a forero, I see a personal attack, I will not be shy in responding.  Call it citizenship if you will.   I'll also let a Culture Mod know if their help is needed.  

regards,
Cuchu


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## Everness

timpeac said:
			
		

> Culture and politics seem completely mixed up...


 ¡No lo podría haber dicho mejor! 



			
				panjandrum said:
			
		

> I don't like politics threads.
> So when political or religious themes appear (it is almost always clear from the title) most of the time I just ignore them.  I sometimes dip in just to see, and usually retreat very quickly.



That's exactly the correct approach. If you don't like political threads or the vitriolic exchanges somewhat upset you, just ignore them.


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## modgirl

Everness, it appears by the number of threads you've started that the issue of Iraq is foremost in your mind. I think Pan made a very wise observation: _It seems to me that the purpose of some threads has been to promote a particular point of view, not to promote discussion and seek the views of others._

I'm not suggesting that the subject of Iraq is not important.  And maybe it's only my own perception, but it seems like the cultural forum is turning into the "Iraqi forum."

But, others disagree, and I respect that.


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## timpeac

Everness said:
			
		

> That's exactly the correct approach. If you don't like political threads or the vitriolic exchanges somewhat upset you, just ignore them.


 
Yes, although I don't believe you can divorce culture from politics, I don't like the fiercely political threads either, and tend to avoid them.

How you could discuss, say, the culture of - just to pick on one country - say Russia in the previous few decades without bringing in politics I'd love to know!!


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## timpeac

modgirl said:
			
		

> Everness, it appears by the number of threads you've started that the issue of Iraq is foremost in your mind. I think Pan made a very wise observation: _It seems to me that the purpose of some threads has been to promote a particular point of view, not to promote discussion and seek the views of others._
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the subject of Iraq is not important. And maybe it's only my own perception, but it seems like the cultural forum is turning into the "Iraqi forum."
> 
> But, others disagree, and I respect that.


 
I think I understand where you're coming from Modgirl - but can't we usually just avoid those threads we don't like? That Iraq thread wasn't hijacked from a nice being anodyne cultural thread, was it - it was always highly political.


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## modgirl

timpeac said:
			
		

> I think I understand where you're coming from Modgirl - but can't we usually just avoid those threads we don't like? That Iraq thread wasn't hijacked from a nice anodyne cultural thread, was it - it was always highly political.


 
I was just replying to the number of threads on Iraq -- several.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> Everness, it appears by the number of threads you've started that the issue of Iraq is foremost in your mind.



I think you need to check your facts before you make a statement of this nature. Out of the 22 threads I started, only 2 or maybe 3 have to do with Iraq. But as the saying goes, perception is reality!


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## panjandrum

modgirl said:
			
		

> [...]... but it seems like the cultural forum is turning into the "Iraqi forum."
> But, others disagree, and I respect that.


Ah. You see I wouldn't have noticed that because I keep out of those threads. Just to be clear, my previous comment should probably have read: 
_It seems to me that the purpose of some threads has been to promote *particular points* of view, not to promote discussion and seek the views of others. _
_... _and my general tolerance of political threads stems from that perspective.
(I will go back to edit accordingly in a moment.)

I could, more readily, become irritated if these forums were persistently used to promote one particular point of view through a number of different threads - in effect a political campaign rather than a discussion.


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> I think you need to check your facts before you make a statement of this nature. Out of the 22 threads I started, only 2 or maybe 3 have to do with Iraq. But as the saying goes, perception is reality!


 
With a few of yours that were deleted by moderators, you're probably right. Sorry.


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## cuchuflete

modgirl said:
			
		

> I was just replying to the number of threads on Iraq -- several.



Hey Modgirl...

Hope you are in the mood for a friendly disagreement.  I think we have had far fewer Iraq threads than food/cooking/gastronomy/gluttony threads.

Also, the number of threads about ways to greet/kiss/hug has been large.

Some of these strike me, personally, as thought-prvoking and fascinating.  Others seem to be, at best, repetitive fluff, with the same ideas trotted out over and over again, with no incremental exchange of cultural information.

When I see one that's fluffy and inconsequential, I do a Panj...glance at it quickly and move on.  I could easily do the same with policy discussions pertaining to the Middle East, or the Jokes thread.

Just because we have a big tent doesn't mean I have to shop in every stall.


Un saludo
Cuchu


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## timpeac

modgirl said:
			
		

> I was just replying to the number of threads on Iraq -- several.


 
Oh, ok I understand what you mean now. But surely the point still stands - can't you just ignore them all? Just because there are 5 threads on Iraq doesn't mean there is any less room for threads on cooking or humour or whatever.

I see that you are suggesting they should get their own mini-forum, but I think the problems of trying to categorise less politically overt threads outweighs the benefits of thinning out to pure "culture" (even if we could define that). And I really am playing devil's advocate here because the extremely political threads aren't really my cup of tea either.


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## modgirl

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hope you are in the mood for a friendly disagreement.


 
Perhaps not this time. 



> Just because we have a big tent doesn't mean I have to shop in every stall.


 
That's very true. Everness (or anyone) should be able to pen as many posts on Iraq or any political subject he chooses, and we are free to read or ignore them.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> With a few of yours that were deleted by moderators, you're probably right. Sorry.



Only one indirectly related to this topic was deleted (the Sheehan one) but it then resurfaced! But how many is too many, right?  

As your first post implies, there are many others who feel like you. Hopefully they will post their opinions in your thread. The moderators of this forum should look into these concerns.


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## VenusEnvy

Everness said:
			
		

> As your first post implies, there are many others who feel like you. Hopefully they will post their opinions in your thread.


(Un?)fortunately I don't agree or disagree.

I, like Tim and Pan, try not to pay mind to political threads. I don't like to debate, and am not looking to jump into the fire. Every now and then I'll stop in to peek at the chaos, but other than that, I generally ignore them.

So, beginning a separate political forum would, I believe, make no difference to me. It might, in fact, deter me from entering at all, even to peek. It would be like volunteering to jump into a pit of rabid monkeys. (Not that the political debaters are monkeys . . . .   ) But, at least when political threads are well integrated into the culture forum, I'm _more likely _ to partake.

There, that's my $0.02.


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## cuchuflete

Talk about a sweet, demure disguise for a strongheaded debater......



			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> *peek at the chaos............
> 
> * * a pit of rabid monkeys.*



just us guys...being nice


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