# 你们俩都是在国外读的管理



## yuechu

Hello/大家好，

I have a grammar question about "的" in a sentence I heard/saw today on TV:
"你们俩都是在国外读*的*管理?"

I'm pretty sure that this was the full sentence (with nothing after). 我想问一下: Does anyone know why is “的” being used here if there is no possession? Is this a special structure?

Thanks in advance/谢谢！


----------



## Ben pan

读的管理 =读的（专业） 是 管理. 所以，你的这句话也可以写成：你们俩在国外 *读的都是管理？  *


----------



## xiaolijie

Baosheng, the 的 in your sentence is part of the "是...的" structure, often used for highlighting a focus of information/ emphasis:
我*是*坐船来*的*. (I came by boat)

If the predicate has an object, you can put 的 after the object:
我*是*在北京上小学*的* (I attended primary school in Beijing)
But usually you put it between the verb and object:
我*是*在北京上*的*小学
你们俩都*是*在国外读*的*管理?

The "是...的" structure is very important for understanding Chinese and you should try to get very familiar with it.


----------



## Hihowareyou

In ordinary speaking, the structure of “是......的” is used a lot . Some examples:  他是乘坐什么交通工具过来的？他是乘坐火车过来的；他的大学是在什么地方读的？他的大学是在北京读的；这件衣服是谁送给他的？这件衣服是他朋友送给他的。Or ask a question like: 他是乘坐火车过来的？他的大学是在北京读的？这件衣服是他朋友送给的？And in a more casual conversation, people would invert some parts of the sentence, and turn it into something like: 他过来是乘坐的火车？他是在北京读的大学？是他朋友送给他的这件衣服？In your case, another  equivalence of the question is  你们俩的管理（专业）都是在国外读的？


----------



## tarlou

I differ from the above two explanations.


For #2: In "在国外读的管理", 读 is obviously a verb and 管理 is its object. In "读的是管理", however, 读的 means "what you read", which is a noun phrase, and 管理 is a definition/explanation of this noun phrase. So grammatically they are not the same thing.


For #3: We can also remove the 是 and get a perfect sentence: 他在国外读的管理. And it differs from 他在国外读管理 mostly in tense (with 的, it is past tense; without 的, it is present progressive). So I wouldn't be convinced by the 是...的... explanation either. If it is a special type of 是...的..., then it's too special.


The OP's sentence is like 你吃的什么？我吃的土豆丝. To me the function of 的 is to indicate the past tense, something like 了 or 过. (But the meaning is different.)

I'm not sure about grammars. Just some doubts. _<< --- Comment deleted. --- >>_


----------



## yuechu

Hihowareyou said:


> And in a more casual conversation, people would invert some parts of the  sentence, and turn it into something like:  他过来是乘坐的火车？他是在北京读的大学？是他朋友送给他的这件衣服？


Ah OK! I didn't realize that this structure could be inverted (even though I use it often). It all makes sense now!

Thanks everyone for your helpful explanations!


----------



## zhg

Hi baosheng

I think most dictionaries can answer you question quite well,here is what I found in my dictionary.



> 的 de
> 4.<助>用在某些句子的动词和宾语之间，强调动作的施事者，受事者或时间，地点，方式等。
> 主任签的字/回来坐的飞机/他昨天夜里犯的病/我在上海念的中学。


----------



## xiaolijie

> 主任签的字/回来坐的飞机/他昨天夜里犯的病/我在上海念的中学


Hi zhg, the 的 in these structures is the regular 的 and I don't think baosheng would have any problem with it.

The regular  的:
这是他昨天买的书 (This is the book he bought yesterday)


The 的 being discussed in this thread:
他是在哪儿买*的*书？(*Where* did he buy the book?)


----------



## zhg

Isn't 的 in baosheng's sentence of the same usage that I quote above? And looks like it matches  with the description and especially the last example sentence, dosen't it?

Well I see the difference now, baosheng's sentece has an implication that they have already graduated, which the 的less equivalent dosn't have.

Xiaolijie it's indeed a full sentece not a phrase because you forgot to type out the period at the end which is included in the dictionary.


----------



## xiaolijie

Hi zhg, I looked at your quote again and the definition is indeed what baosheng was looking for. The examples given in the quote are however ambiguous between the 2 interpretations (They can be interpreted as full sentences or just phrases, with different meanings). 
Anyway, I've added a pair of examples in post #7, I hope it has shown up the contrast.


----------



## tarlou

我是在北京上的小学 is obviously not the same structure as 我是在北京上小学的.

You say 他是在哪儿买*的*书？(*Where* did he buy the book?)​Are you serious and not casual?

_<< --- Comment deleted. --- >>_


----------



## stellari

I'd like to add a little personal observation to the discussion. For me,  the word order matters a lot in a sentence that contains *是...的* structure.
我*是*在北京上小学*的 *is  ambiguous. It could mean: 'I am currently going/went to primary school  in BEIJING (as opposed to other cities)' or 'I AM CURRENTLY GOING  TO/WENT TO PRIMARY SCHOOL (as opposed to other level of education) in  Beijing' depending which part is stressed in speech. Note that it is  unclear whether the speaker is currently going to or has been to primary  school in beijing, but it is very likely s/he is still attending that  school if s/he stresses 上小学*的*.

On the other hand, 我*是*在北京上*的*小学 unambiguously means 'I went to primary school in BEIJING (already finished)'

Similarly, baosheng's sentence

你们俩都*是*在国外读*的*管理 is also a little bit unclear as to which part the speaker wants to emphasize. Maybe that's why Ben Pan andHihowareyou  gave different answers. It could be interpreted as one of the  following, depending on which word is stressed in speech. 
你们俩在国外 *读的都是管理？ *(Ben Pan's version. emphasizes that they majored in management, as opposed to other majors), or
你们俩的管理（专业）都是在国外读的? (Hihowareyou's version. emphasizes that they went to school ABROAD, as opposed to domestic schools). 

However, Ben Pan's interpretation is more probable without further context, since the 是...*的* structure tends to emphasize the content between 是 and *的*


----------



## SuperXW

Now these 助词 in my mother tongue start to frustrate me...  I have no way to explain them.


----------



## xiaolijie

tarlou said:


> 我是在北京上的小学 is obviously not the same structure as 我是在北京上小学的.
> 
> You say 他是在哪儿买*的*书？(*Where* did he buy the book?)​Are you serious and not casual?
> 
> _<< --- Comment deleted. --- >>_


Hi Tarlou, there are 2 issues here in your post:

1. Since not everyone is an expert on the "是...的" structure, take your time to consider the following quote from an acknowledged authority in conjunction with my examples "我是在北京上小学的/ 我是在北京上的小学" and "他是在哪儿买的书?":

"When there is an object involved [as in 买+书], for reason that defies logical explanation, it is customary to place it after the 'final' _de_, as if it were the object of modification. While it is possible to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi piào de _, it is more common to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi de piào_"
(P.167, Colloquial Chinese by P.C. T'ung and D.E. Pollard)

2. I've noticed that members sometimes make posts which are in effect saying things like "_I don't know if it is A but I think it is A. Since someone else said it is B, s/he must be wrong._" Many members look to this forum for knowledge and learning, this kind of post is unhelpful, offensive and will be deleted. Post, therefore, only what you can be sure of, and in a polite manner; or wait for others who may be in a better position to help.

Let's get back to the thread now but if you're still unsure of what I've said, please continue via PM.


----------



## BODYholic

baosheng said:


> Hello/大家好，
> 
> I have a grammar question about "的" in a sentence I heard/saw today on TV:
> "你们俩都是在国外读*的*管理?"
> 
> I'm pretty sure that this was the full sentence (with nothing after). 我想问一下: Does anyone know why is “的” being used here if there is no possession? Is this a special structure?
> 
> Thanks in advance/谢谢！




This looks like a 倒装句 to me. You've to rearrange the words in order to understand the sentence.
"你们俩 / 都是在国外读/ *的管理*?" --> "你们俩/ *的管理* / 都是在国外读*的*?"

The purpose of 倒装 is usually used to shift focus within a given sentence. This structure is uncommon in modern Chinese and I tend to see Taiwanese use it more often then native speakers from other regions.
E.g. 一本书 vs 书一本
我买了一本书 vs 我买了书一本 

(Note: 倒装句 is different from active/passive voice)


----------



## Skatinginbc

stellari said:


> 你们俩在国外读的都是管理？ (Ben Pan's version)....Ben Pan's interpretation is more probable without further context, since the 是...的 structure tends to emphasize the content between 是 and 的


I'm confused.  The OP's sentence is 你们俩都是在国外读的管理.  Isn't *"*在国外读" the content between 是 and 的?  If *"*在国外读" is the part being emphasized, isn't 你们俩的管理（专业）都是在国外读的 (Hihowareyou's version) to be the more probable one?


xiaolijie said:


> While it is possible to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi piào de_, it is more common to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi de piào_" (P.167, Colloquial Chinese by P.C. T'ung and D.E. Pollard)


我是下午买票的 vs. 我是下午买的票 is different from 我是在北京上的小学 vs.  我是在北京上小学的 due to (1) their difference in verbs (i.e., 买 is a  momentary action while 上 is a prolonged action) and (2) the  existence of 在, which could serve either as a  preposition like English "at" or as a modal for the progressive tense.   As a result, 我是在北京上小学的 is  ambiguous, as Stellari correctly stated in  post #11.  And I agree with Tarlou, who said in post #10 that "我是在北京上的小学  is obviously not the same structure as 我是在北京上小学的".  It was also concurred by Stellari, who pointed out the difference between  the two in post  #11.


----------



## xiaolijie

Skatinginbc said:
			
		

> And I agree with Tarlou, who said in post #10 that "我是在北京上的小学 is obviously not the same structure as 我是在北京上小学的". It was also concurred by Stellari, who pointed out the difference between the two in post #11.


This is where both you and Tarlou have gone wrong (And you're also trying to pull Stellari into your mix!)

Here is what I said in post #3:


> If the predicate has an object, you can put 的 after the object:
> 我是在北京上小学的 (I attended primary school in Beijing)
> But usually you put it between the verb and object:
> 我是在北京上的小学



And here is what the authors said as quoted in post #13:


> "While it is possible to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi piào de _, it is more common to say _Wǒ shi xiàwu mǎi de piào_"


Then, where did you see in the above that we say the alternative sentences have "the same structure"? Language use, admittedly, can be ambiguous, but to exploit this intentionally to mislead is deplorable. I don't think any ordinary, educated English speakers would have any problem with understanding what is said in the above quotes.

---------------
PS: Just flipped through some grammar books and found the following, which is essential what I was saying above:


> Where _de_ precedes the direct object, examples (a) and (b) are essentially equivalent, and it makes little difference which one is used:
> a) Tāmen (shi) bā diǎnzhōng kāi mén de
> b) Tāmen (shi) bā diǎnzhōng kāi de mén


(p.589, Mandarin Chinese by Charles Li & Sandra Thompson)



> When the element between 是 and 的 ends with 'verb+object', the object can be moved after 的:
> 我是上午去的邮局。(= 我是上午去邮局的。)


(pp.158-159, Yufa! by Wen-hua Teng)


----------



## Skatinginbc

xiaolijie said:


> where did you see in the above that we say the  alternative sentences have "the same structure"?


Anyone with  a pair of eyes can tell that they do not have the same surface  structures.  What we have been discussing here obviously concern their  "underlying structures".  The fact that you just used the word  "alternative" (= alternate, substitute  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alternative) implies that you believe  they are essentially equivalent.  If not, what you said in post #3 would  have become off-topic, simply bringing up a different structure just to  confuse other learners of Chinese.  So, are the two alternatives indeed  essentially equivalent? 
Examine the following: 
1. 他是看门的(人) "He is a person that keeps the door" (= He is a door-keeper) vs. *他是看的门
2. 他是讨饭的(人)  "He is one that begs rice" (= He is a beggar) vs. *他是讨的饭. 
3. 这是我写的书 "This is a book I wrote" vs. *这是我写书的 (incomplete sentence).
4. 这是我赚的钱 "This is the money I earned" vs. *这是我赚钱的 (incomplete sentence).
5. 这些狼人是在晚上变形的(怪物)  "Those werewolves are ones that change their shape at night" (= Those  werewolves are shape shifters at night) or "Those werewolves were ones  that changed their shape at night" vs. 这些狼人是在晚上变的形  "It was during the night when those werewolves changed their shape".
6.  我是在北京上小学的(人)  "I am one that attends an elementary school in Beijing"  or "I was one that attended an elementary school in Beijing" vs.  我是在北京上的小学 "It was in Beijing where I attended my elementary school".  
7.  你们俩都是在国外读管理的(人) "Both of you are ones that study management abroad" or  "Both of you are ones that studied management abroad" vs. 你们俩都是在国外读的管理  "It was in a foreign country where you both studied management".      

 (人) and (怪物)   in the above examples, although absent in surface structure, are to  demonstrate the existence of an implied noun in the underlying structure  of those sentences.  我是在北京上小学的(人)  and 我是在北京上的小学 differ not only in  meaning but also in structure.


----------



## xiaolijie

@Skatinginbc:
From your examples, you're obviously mixing up the "是...的" with the ordinary "A 是 B" pattern, where B happens to have 的 within it (just as in your example: 他是看门的(人)). 

Anyway, I don't think I need to say much here and I advise you not to do so either. I'm sure other members can see it for themselves.


----------



## zhg

xiaolijie, those sentences you find in your gramma books all have clear time markers, 八点钟，下午etc, hence it doesn't matter where you put 的, because it won't change the tense, that's the reason why those rules _do_ fit perfectly well in them. However in other cases, like sentences without clear time markers, the position of 的 can produce nuances. As you might have noticed, many posts above have already pointed them out. Grammarians aren't perfect sometimes their rules have minor defects. I think you might have taken their rules too seriously. I hope this is not off-topic.


----------



## xiaolijie

Hi zhg, 

I understand perfectly what you say, but the "是...的" structure is not really confined to sentences with time markers like you said. The fact is, as I already noted in my first post in this thread, "是...的" is used to highlight an element inside it (= call it a "focus of information"). This focus can be on the time as in the examples you referred to but it can also be on the place (Wo shi zai Yingguo sheng de), manner (Ta shi kaiche lai de), purpose (Wo bushi lai gen ni chaojia de), etc...That is, any element that is in the context worth emphasizing.

Obviously, ambiguity is a fact of life, as I already acknowledged in my reply (#9) to your earlier post, but this should not make the rule concerning  "是...的" any less definite.


----------



## zhg

You might have mistaken my point, I wasn't saying it's only time can be emphasized, but it's only when time is included, the position of 的 won't make a difference in meaning. In other cases, like baosheng's sentence and 北京上小学sentece, the rule can't be applied.



> When the element between 是 and 的 ends with 'verb+object', the object can be moved after 的



Take one of your sentences for example
他是开车来学校的。（可能是描述一种经常性习惯性的动作，或者也可能描述过去的动作，意义同下）
他是开车来的学校。（他已经到了学校，来是过去的动作）

The position of 的 do change the meaning.

Add specific time marker,like今天。
他今天开车来学校的。
他今天开车来的学校。

Same meaning, the position of 的 doesn't matter.


----------



## xiaolijie

zhg said:
			
		

> The position of 的 do change the meaning.
> 
> Add specific time marker,like今天。
> 他今天开车来学校的。
> 他今天开车来的学校。
> 
> Same meaning, the position of 的 doesn't matter.


Not necessarily a change of meaning but it may introduce an addtional interpretation. For that reason, I added the following to my previous post while you were writing yours: 



			
				xiaolijie said:
			
		

> Obviously, ambiguity is a fact of life, as I already acknowledged in my reply (#9) to your earlier post, but this should not make the rule concerning "是...的" any less definite.


----------



## zhg

But isn't it misleading if someone who wants to say 我开车去学校 as a habitual routine, applies the rule only to have a sentence that reads 我是开车去的学校. Which clearly is indicating a past event, while the correct way to emphasize is to put 的 at the end, 我是开车去学校的。


----------



## xiaolijie

zhg said:


> Take one of your sentences for example
> 他是开车来学校的。（可能是描述一种经常性习惯性的动作，或者也可能描述过去的动作，意义同下）
> 他是开车来的学校。（他已经到了学校，来是过去的动作）





zhg said:


> But isn't it misleading if someone who wants to say 我开车去学校 as a habitual routine, applies the rule only to have a sentence that reads 我是开车去的学校. Which clearly is indicating a past event, while the correct way to emphasize is to put 的 at the end, 我是开车去学校的。


This is confusing, zhg!
First, not as you said, the sentence is not mine.
Secondly, the distinction between "habitual routine" and "past event" is entirely yours. I've had no part in it and will not do now.
So, it'll leave it entirely to you there


----------



## zhg

All I was saying is that the rule you quote is not perfect, it just doesn't fit in some sentences (I dare not say my additional rule based on my own observation is one hundred percent correct).But sadly it just fails to make a difference to you, as you seem to be stuck to the rule, and read them for the same meaning. Though I have tried my best finding examples to prove they are not.


----------



## xiaolijie

zhg said:


> All I was saying is that the rule you quote is not perfect, it just doesn't fit in some sentences (I dare not say my additional rule based on my own observation is one hundred percent correct).But sadly it just fails to make a difference to you, as you seem to be stuck to the rule, and read them for the same meaning. Though I have tried my best finding examples to prove they are not.


The rules are stated by long-established linguistic professionals (as I cited: 5 of them, which include 3 native Chinese speakers). It's a very good reason to trust them, zhg! They're not the kind that just push on for the simple reason that they are Chinese, and for that reason alone!


----------



## stellari

Skatinginbc said:


> I'm confused.  The OP's sentence is 你们俩都是在国外读的管理.  Isn't *"*在国外读" the content between 是 and 的?  If *"*在国外读" is the part being emphasized, isn't 你们俩的管理（专业）都是在国外读的 (Hihowareyou's version) to be the more probable one?



You are right. I meant to say 'Hihowareyou's version is more probable'. Thank you for the correction.


----------



## Youngfun

xiaolijie, have you noticed the difference between 是……[noun]的 and 是……的[noun]?
Whether they are the same structure or not is debatable.
If you mean that they are under the general category 是……的 then we can say they are the same structure.
But we can't say they are exactly the very same one either, because they have different meanings.

And I think that the grammar you quoted simplify rules for the learners. In fact he only gives one example where both 是……[noun]的 and 是……的[noun]? can be used without changing the meaning.
It doesn't cover other cases where:
1. 是……的[noun] can't be used; 
2. or the two structure lead to a different meaning.

By the way, this topic has already been discussed before:
今天很晚才吃的午饭


----------



## xiaolijie

Youngfun said:


> xiaolijie, have you noticed the difference between 是……[noun]的 and 是……的[noun]?
> Whether they are the same structure or not is debatable.
> If you mean that they are under the general category 是……的 then we can say they are the same structure.
> But we can't say they are exactly the very same one either, because they have different meanings.



Yongfun, of course I know the difference, as I already pionted that out in post #18:


			
				xiaolijie said:
			
		

> From your examples, you're obviously mixing up the "是...的" with the ordinary "A 是 B" pattern, where B happens to have 的 within it (just as in your example: 他是看门的(人)).



And thank you for the link to an existing thread!


----------



## yuechu

zhg said:


> Take one of your sentences for example
> 他是开车来学校的。（可能是描述一种经常性习惯性的动作，或者也可能描述过去的动作，意义同下）
> 他是开车来的学校。（他已经到了学校，来是过去的动作）
> 
> The position of 的 do change the meaning.
> 
> Add specific time marker,like今天。
> 他今天开车来学校的。
> 他今天开车来的学校。
> 
> Same meaning, the position of 的 doesn't matter.


I think your four sentences here clear up everything!   At least, I think I finally am starting to understand how this works...  (well I'll just be digesting this for now since my Chinese grammar  skills are so poor! )
Thanks for deducing these rules, zhg, and to everyone else, as well, for  your help!


----------

