# Urdu-Hindi: manaanaa



## Qureshpor

In another thread gb mentioned about the use of "maatam" in Hindi more as "maatam manaanaa" than"maatam karnaa". I was somewhat surprised by this until I thought about "sog" which as we all know is used both with karnaa and manaanaa.

For some reason I have always associated "manaanaa" with happy occasions than sad ones, e.g xushii/xushiyaaN manaanaa, Eid (3iid)/Holi/Besaakhii/Christmas manaanaa, saal-girah manaanaa etc.

Can you think of other instances where "manaanaa" is used for sad occasions?


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## BP.

_yaum e siyaah manaanaa_, off the top of my head.


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## greatbear

I think this may have to do with the ceremonies surrounding death, especially that of a very old person (in which case it is celebrated joyously). In certain regions, for example, Rajasthan, there are elaborate ceremonies surrounding death, and as death is the usual thing bringing "maatam", probably the word "manaanaa" got associated with the word. This is all just guesswork, though.


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## marrish

_dukh manaanaa_


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> _dukh manaanaa_



I have n't come across dukh/Gham manaanaa. Taking into account BP SaaHib's "yaum-i-siyaah manaanaa"  I wonder if "manaanaa" in addition to the meaning "to celebrate" also implies "to commemorate" , "to spend" (chhuTTii manaanaa) etc


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## marrish

Well, I think you are right, take  _barsii manaanaa_ for instance.


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## Qureshpor

Just extending this thread and not wishing to open a new one, I have heard both "buraa maan_naa" and "buraa manaanaa". I believe the first choice is correct although, as I have already indicated, the second one is used too. Your views please. Have you heard both and if yes do you feel both are equally correct?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Just extending this thread and not wishing to open a new one, I have heard both "buraa maan_naa" and "buraa manaanaa". I believe the first choice is correct although, as I have already indicated, the second one is used too. Your views please. Have you heard both and if yes do you feel both are equally correct?



I've heard both and strangely enough, I find both of them correct, per usage. My explanation in the spur of a moment is this:

_Qureshpor SaaHib, maiN x ko buraa maantaa huuN._
Related speech:  QP: _marrish ne buraa manaayaa hai._


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I've heard both and strangely enough, I find both of them correct, per usage. My explanation in the spur of a moment is this:
> 
> _Qureshpor SaaHib, maiN x ko buraa maantaa huuN._
> Related speech:  QP: _marrish ne buraa manaayaa hai._



The meaning in your first example is not what I had in mind. The meaning is "I consider x as bad" but I intend to say, "I take offence from x". 

I find your second sentence "awkward". I would have said (agar aap buraa nah maaneN).. "marrish SaaHib buraa maan ga'e haiN"!


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## marrish

Oh, I think I get it now. It is so difficult to explain it at this moment. I have several explanations in mind but I don't know which one would work best. I'ts late! I'll get back tomorrow.


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## greatbear

I have only heard (and used) "buraa mannaa"/"buraa maan jaanaa", never "buraa manaanaa". Example: "Are yaar, maine bas itnaa hi to us se kahaa, aur veh buraa maan gaya/buraa maan ke baiTh gayaa".


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> The meaning in your first example is not what I had in mind. The meaning is "I consider x as bad" but I intend to say, "I take offence from x".
> 
> I find your second sentence "awkward". I would have said (agar aap buraa nah maaneN).. "marrish SaaHib buraa maan ga'e haiN"!



Ghalib, *buraa nah maan* jo vaa3iz buraa kahe
aisaa bhii ko'ii hai kih sab achchhaa kaheN jise!


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## UrduMedium

_buraa manaanaa_ has a slightly different meaning and mood than _buraa maan_naa_. _buraa maan_naa_ suggests a unit response to something negative. _buraa manaanaa_ is more of a "process" or consequential behavior in response to something unpleasant.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> _buraa manaanaa_ has a slightly different meaning and mood than _buraa maan_naa_. _buraa maan_naa_ suggests a unit response to something negative. _buraa manaanaa_ is more of a "process" or consequential behavior in response to something unpleasant.



Any illustrative examples to differentiate the usage please, UM SaaHib.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Any illustrative examples to differentiate the usage please, UM SaaHib.



xatuun ne umr puuchhe jaane par buraa maanaa
betii ki shaadi meN na bulane par muhalle waaloN ne bohut buraa manaaya


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> xatuun ne umr puuchhe jaane par buraa maanaa
> betii ki shaadi meN na bulane par muhalle waaloN ne bohut buraa manaaya


In terms of your "definition" for each, they appear to me to be equivalent. They are both "unit responses" and not processes, the first one concerning asking a lady her age and the second one not inviting the locals to a wedding. Both scenarios can also be put under the umbrella of "consequential behaviour".


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> In terms of your "definition" for each, they appear to me to be equivalent. They are both "unit responses" and not processes, the first one concerning asking a lady her age and the second one not inviting the locals to a wedding. Both scenarios can also be put under the umbrella of "consequential behavior".



Don't mean to belabor the issue, as I have already stated my view. But perhaps one more explanation may help ... In the first example, just a feeling of dislike and some momentary expression of such displeasure is enough. That's pretty much it. In the latter case, the feeling of hurt is longer-lasting and likely affects subsequent reciprocal behavior of the aggrieved party. 

Sounds like splitting hairs? Possibly. But that's the extent of the difference I feel here.


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## UrduMedium

^+ Perhaps _buraa maan baiThnaa_ would be a rough equivalent of _buraa manaanaa_


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Don't mean to belabor the issue, as I have already stated my view. But perhaps one more explanation may help ... In the first example, just a feeling of dislike and some momentary expression of such displeasure is enough. That's pretty much it. In the latter case, the feeling of hurt is longer-lasting and likely affects subsequent reciprocal behavior of the aggrieved party.
> 
> Sounds like splitting hairs? Possibly. But that's the extent of the difference I feel here.


Sometimes, being a "baal-khaal udheRak" is necessary!


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> I have only heard (and used) "buraa mannaa"/"buraa maan jaanaa", never "buraa manaanaa". Example: "Are yaar, maine bas itnaa hi to us se kahaa, aur veh buraa maan gaya/buraa maan ke baiTh gayaa".


Is the purported meaning ''he took offence and sat down''?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Sometimes, being a "baal-khaal udheRak" is necessary!



That's encouraging, QP saahab. Which leads me to another muu-shigaafii ... 

It seems to me that _buraa maan_naa_ only legitimately applies when something negative is directed at the subject of _maan_naa_. However _buraa manaanaa _is not limited to that scope, and applies even when the same could be directed to other than the subject of _manaanaa_. In other words, you could _manaa _for others but only _maan _for yourself. 

For example: hazrat ne kuchh afraad kii taraf se Ghariib aadmi ki taHqiir kaa _buraa manaayaa_. It seems that _maanaa _would not be applicable here.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> That's encouraging, QP saahab. Which leads me to another muu-shigaafii ...
> 
> It seems to me that _buraa maan_naa_ only legitimately applies when something negative is directed at the subject of _maan_naa_. However _buraa manaanaa _is not limited to that scope, and applies even when the same could be directed to other than the subject of _manaanaa_. In other words, you could _manaa _for others but only _maan _for yourself.
> 
> For example: hazrat ne kuchh afraad kii taraf se Ghariib aadmi ki taHqiir kaa _buraa manaayaa_. It seems that _maanaa _would not be applicable here.


Could we not say "Hazrat, kuchh afraad ke haathoN ek Ghariib aadamii kii taHqiir kaa buraa maan ga'e"?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Could we not say "Hazrat, kuchh afraad ke haathoN ek Ghariib aadamii kii taHqiir kaa buraa maan ga'e"?



But that verb is not _buraa maan_naa_, but _buraa maan jaana_. Closer to my understanding of _manaanaa_. Somewhere between _buraa maan_na_ and _buraa maan baiThnaa_.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> But that verb is not _buraa maan_naa_, but _buraa maan jaana_. Closer to my understanding of _manaanaa_. Somewhere between _buraa maan_na_ and _buraa maan baiThnaa_.


UM SaaHib, the difference between "maan_naa" and "manaanaa" is the same as that between, for example, khaanaa & khilaanaa. You will agree that it is a big difference. One could say that the verb "jaanaa" adds some emphasis to the base verb. There are other verbs which add some aspect to the basic verb.

vuh aayaa vs vuh aa gayaa
vuh bolaa vs vuh bol paRaa
vuh haNsaa vs vuh haNs diyaa etc

How about...

"Hazrat ne kuchh afraad ke haathoN ek Ghariib aadamii kii taHqiir kaa buraa maanaa"?


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## greatbear

UrduMedium said:


> xatuun ne umr puuchhe jaane par buraa maanaa
> betii ki shaadi meN na bulane par muhalle waaloN ne bohut buraa manaaya



UM, as far as I know, this "buraa manaanaa" doesn't exist in Hindi; your sentence in Hindi will be:
"beTii kii shaadi meiN na bulaaye jaane par mohalle vaaloN ne bohat buraa maanaa"

Now, this "buraa maannaa" doesn't indicate at all for how long did these people take offence: it could be only for a short period of time or it could be for years and years, or this state of mutual "ruuThnaa" might still be continuing. To indicate a more long-lasting "buraa maannaa", I would then use "buraa maan ke baiTh jaanaa":


"... mohalle vaale buraa maan ke baiTh gaye"

This also answers marrish's question, I assume, in post 20.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> "Hazrat ne kuchh afraad ke haathoN ek Ghariib aadamii kii taHqiir kaa buraa maanaa"?



As I said before, the above sounds at least not preferable (possibly incorrect) to my ears. Sounds like Hazrat took a personal offence from something that had nothing to do with him. Unfortunately I'm repeating now, so I'll stop here.


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> UM, as far as I know, this "buraa manaanaa" doesn't exist in Hindi; your sentence in Hindi will be:
> "beTii kii shaadi meiN na bulaaye jaane par mohalle vaaloN ne bohat buraa maanaa"
> 
> Now, this "buraa maannaa" doesn't indicate at all for how long did these people take offence: it could be only for a short period of time or it could be for years and years, or this state of mutual "ruuThnaa" might still be continuing. To indicate a more long-lasting "buraa maannaa", I would then use "buraa maan ke baiTh jaanaa":
> 
> 
> "... mohalle vaale buraa maan ke baiTh gaye"
> 
> This also answers marrish's question, I assume, in post 20.



GB, on the contrast, _buraa manaanaa_ is very much alive and kicking in Urdu. Perhaps I'm not able to finely carve its distinct usage.

With regard to _buraa maan baiThnaa_ (or _buraa maan ke baiThn jaanaa_), I agree. Please see #18. I think that's roughly what _buraa manaanaa_ means.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> I have n't come across dukh/Gham manaanaa.  Taking into account BP SaaHib's "yaum-i-siyaah manaanaa"  I wonder if  "manaanaa" in addition to the meaning "to celebrate" also implies "to  commemorate" , "to spend" (chhuTTii manaanaa) etc


 QP SaaHib,_ Gham manaanaa_ is very much used in Urdu - perfectly idomatic. As you guessed, _manaanaa _given the context varies in meaning, i.e.  _xushii manaanaa _gives it the meaning of "to celebrate", but in _Gham manaanaa_ it of course means "to  commemorate".


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Just extending this thread and not wishing to open a new one, I have heard both "buraa maan_naa" and "buraa manaanaa". I believe the first choice is correct although, as I have already indicated, the second one is used too. Your views please. Have you heard both and if yes do you feel both are equally correct?


 Both are indeed used in Urdu but with different meanings!

_agar aap log buraa nah maaneN to jo urduu ham sunte aa’e haiN us meN buraa manaane ke ma3ne kuchh aur hii haiN! _


برا منانا  _buraa manaanaa_ = حقیر كرنا _Haqiir karnaa_, برا بنانا _buraa banaanaa_, بدنام كرنا _bad-naam karnaa_, ملزم بنانا _mulzim banaanaa _


_magar buraa mannaa yaa maan jaanaa_ _yaa_ _buraa maan baiThnaa_ _sab hii taqriiban eksaaN Taur par muta3mal haiN!_

… and we of course also use *منانا manaanaa* as a verb by itself with the following meanings:

روٹھے کو راضی کرنا، رضامند کرنا؛
 رنجیدہ کو خوش کرنا، غمگین کا دل ہاتھوں میں لینا۔

_ruThe ko raaDhii (raazii) karma, riDhaa(rizaa)-mand karnaa, _
_ranjiidah ko xush karnaa, Ghamgiin kaa dil haathhoN meN lenaa._


كسی كو منانا _kisii ko manaanaa_ = To console someone / make someone happy or pleased. 

گرہوخفا تم ، كیسے مناؤں میں
_gar ho xafaa tum, kaise manaa'uN maiN_

(_ek gum-naam shaa3ir_)

For _maatam_ (_maa’tam_) we usually say ماتم كرنا _maatam karnaa_ (or _maatam honaa_, depending) rather than _maatam manaanaa_ - we don't say this, btw - but the latter may be used by those who mean it in the same way as سوگ منانا _sog manaanaa_ and غم منانا _Gham manaanaa_ (just as we say غم كرنا _Gham karnaa_ / كھانا _khaanaa_ / اٹھانا_ uThaanaa_ with of course have different meanings / different shades of meanings. Would be best to discuss these in a new thread for _Gham_ if we wish to go further on with these).

BTW, _for maatam _we also use_ paRnaa _rather than_ honaa _or _karnaa, _or indeed_ manaanaa__, _as _daaGh_ _dehlavii _uses:

مر گئے  اہل ِ كعبہ  اُس  بت  پر
ایك ماتم خدا كے گھر میں پڑا
داغ دہلوی

_mar ga’e ahl-e-ka3bah us but par_
_ek maatam xudaa ke ghar meN paRaa_

_daaGh dehlavii_

He could have said: _ek maatam xudaa ke ghar meN huaa _/_ kiyaa _or even _manaayaa, _though I'm not sure if the latter would have been approved by him or others around him. All of course with different shades of meanings. He uses _paRaa_ in the place of _huaa_ for imparting a more emphatic meaning, I assume.


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## UrduMedium

^ To summarize, so buraa manaanaa = badnaam karnaa/mulzim banaanaa? 

That's certainly very new to me.


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## greatbear

In Hindi, buraa *b*anaanaa = buraii denaa = badnaam karnaa/mulzim banaanaa.


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> _mar ga’e ahl-e-ka3bah us but par_
> _ek maatam xudaa ke ghar meN paRaa_
> 
> _daaGh dehlavii_
> 
> He could have said: _ek maatam xudaa ke ghar meN huaa _/_ kiyaa _or even _manaayaa, _though I'm not sure if the latter would have been approved by him or others around him. All of course with different shades of meanings. He uses _paRaa_ in the place of _huaa_ for imparting a more emphatic meaning, I assume.



I beg to differ; he could have used "huaa", yes, but not at all "kiyaa" or "manaayaa" - one needs an agent to "kar" or "manaa" something, where is that agent here?
Here, "paRaa" means "happened" - same as "huaa", which "kiyaa" and "manaayaa" can never mean. What one could use here besides "paRaa" and "huaa" is "giraa" - both "paRaa" and "giraa" being elegant choices here. Another choice, with the shade of meaning changing, would be "phailaa". "huaa" would be inelegant and a very awkward word choice here, not simply less emphatic. It would be inelegant, because we are talking here of a gloom descending, actually, not a "gloom happening".


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> I beg to differ; he could have used "huaa", yes, but not at all "kiyaa" or "manaayaa" - one needs an agent to "kar" or "manaa" something, where is that agent here?
> Here, "paRaa" means "happened" - same as "huaa", which "kiyaa" and "manaayaa" can never mean. What one could use here besides "paRaa" and "huaa" is "giraa" - both "paRaa" and "giraa" being elegant choices here. Another choice, with the shade of meaning changing, would be "phailaa". "huaa" would be inelegant and a very awkward word choice here, not simply less emphatic. It would be inelegant, because we are talking here of a gloom descending, actually, not a "gloom happening".


 You clearly haven't understood what I said! ... and of course you are entitled to your opinion!


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> ^ To summarize, so buraa manaanaa = badnaam karnaa/mulzim banaanaa?
> 
> That's certainly very new to me.


 It certainly is uncommon, but I just checked my Urdu lexicons and this meaning exists.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Both are indeed used in Urdu but with different meanings!
> 
> _agar aap log buraa nah maaneN to jo urduu ham sunte aa’e haiN us meN buraa manaane ke ma3ne kuchh aur hii haiN! _
> 
> برا منانا  _buraa manaanaa_ = حقیر كرنا _Haqiir karnaa_, برا بنانا _buraa banaanaa_, بدنام كرنا _bad-naam karnaa_, ملزم بنانا _mulzim banaanaa _.


Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib for differentiating the two meanings in a clear and precise way. It appears that at least some people use buraa maan_naa and buraa manaanaa interchangeably.


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## greatbear

The question is "some people" or "most people"? UM said that "buraa manaanaa" is well alive and kicking in Urdu, but his meaning is very much different from Faylasoof's given meaning. It would be interesting to hear from more Urdu speakers how do they hear it, and use it (if they do). Logic, remember, doesn't have always the best of relations with usages: just because khaana-khilaanaa, ronaa-rulaanaa, etc., doesn't mean that maannaa-manaanaa pair should function in the same way in popular usage.


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## Faylasoof

qureshpor said:


> originally posted by *Faylasoof*
> both are indeed used in urdu but with different meanings!
> 
> _agar aap log buraa nah maanen to jo urduu ham sunte aa’e hain us men buraa manaane ke ma3ne kuchh aur hii hain! _
> 
> برا منانا  _buraa manaanaa_ = حقیر كرنا _haqiir karnaa_, برا بنانا _buraa banaanaa_, بدنام كرنا _bad-naam karnaa_, ملزم بنانا _mulzim banaanaa _
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you faylasoof saahib for differentiating the two meanings in a clear and precise way. It appears that at least some people use buraa maan_naa and buraa manaanaa interchangeably.
Click to expand...

 Yes QP SaaHIb, _buraa_ _maannaa_ and _manaanaa _cannot really be equivalent. Perhaps given the latter meaning's rare, correct usage resulted in this confusion sometime back. So _buraa manaanaa_ does exist but its current usage, now apparently rather common, seems quite improper.


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## greatbear

Ah, so it seems then that "buraa manaanaa" as defined by UM is the popular ("common") usage. Hmm, well anyway, it's usage that defines a language and all that's proper in it - in spite of purists and their maledictions.


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Ah, so it seems then that "buraa manaanaa" as defined by UM is the popular ("common") usage. Hmm, well anyway, it's usage that defines a language and all that's proper in it - in spite of purists and their maledictions.


Its current use is Ghalat-ul-3aam!


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## greatbear

Maybe all that you are so religiously adhering to, did come about through these "Ghalat-ul-3aams" - languages evolve through them, otherwise they would rot. The French word "aller" has three conjugation roots in _standard _grammar - all because of "Ghalat-ul-3aams", now history.


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Maybe all that you are so religiously adhering to, did come about through these "Ghalat-ul-3aams" - languages evolve through them, otherwise they would rot. The French word "aller" has three conjugation roots in _standard _grammar - all because of "Ghalat-ul-3aams", now history.


 I'm sure some did but not everything, obviously! Otherwise we'd be in a right mess! Come to think of it, we seem to be heading that way since basic grammatical rules are broken / ignored often through sheer ignorance! .. and there is a standard form for many things we use as educated people. Of course many less fortunate don't get the right training. I'm just indicating what are considered correct grammatical forms / standard expressions in Urdu. Nobody is forcing anybody to follow them. We are not an enforcement agency! All this has been discussed many times before!


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## Qureshpor

^ I agree with you Faylasoof SaaHib. Some "Ghalat-ul-3aam" words have no doubt found a place in Standard Urdu and one can say with some measure of certainty that there will be others which will also become absorbed into the spoken and written language. Only recently the word "rihaa'ish" came up in the conversation and Josh from Maleehabad (1894-1982) did not have the slightest respect for anyone using it. But, it is part of the language now and probably most people don't even know why it was considered to be wrong.

All this however does not mean that we should not try to speak and write our language/s in a way that is considered to be the norm of the best of its practitioners, whether living or deceased. Until the best speakers and writers of the language start using "aap bahut achchhe ho", it will remain wrong for me and I won't use it deliberately and it will most certainly not roll off my tongue unintentionally. And until Zia Mohyiddin hands a "fool/fuul" to his "fuufii", I shall refrain from such practice and consider the object a "phuul" and the good lady, his "phuuphii"!


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> Its current use is Ghalat-ul-3aam!



Ghalat-ul-3aam is considered a _correct usage_ in language. At least per my Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3. Please see the definition below (image). 

Secondly, I would like to ask Faylasoof and QP saahibaan this question. How many times (roughly) have you folks come across _buraa manaanaa_ in the _badnaam karnaa_ sense, in your (mashaa'Allah) long lives? I'm honestly curious to know.

Just as a point of comparison, I ran an informal poll on my facebook about _buraa maan_naa/manaanaa_ and got 20+ responses with several shades of meaning, but mostly hovering around taking offence and so on. I'd guess about 3/4th of the respondents are native Urdu speakers. Not a single one came up with the dictionary meaning you quoted (_badnaam karnaa_). Not to say that the meaning you quote is wrong, but it seems to me to be a museum piece. Just my $.02. Of course, your mileage may vary.


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## UrduMedium

^ Here's my facebook question and few of the interesting responses (none is mine, all four native Urdu speakers):

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urdu/Hindi language poll: Which one sounds correct to your ears?

A) us ne meri baat ka bura maana
B) us ne meri baat ka bura manaaya

Extra credit: If both sound good, please distinguish their usage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_"It sounds like the first one is more personal where the person kept it to himself. The second one, he made his heartfelt known. I guess u r forcing us to make a distinction. Haha." -OM_

_"Both are correct, it depends on the personality of the 'subject' or 'us/os'. Mr. A is transparent and wysiwyg and doesn't hold grudges, the other one B) is more the kind who hold grudges and persist with negative sentiments" -IH_

_"In both cases the saying is from the perspective of the 1st person. In case one . The baat itself may or may not be bad. In case two the baat clearly is not bad but the receiver perceives it to be bad." -AF

_And this one  _ " ...  is this for some formal research, personal curiosity or just 'panga'?" -AZ
_
The final tally was roughly the following:

A: 5
B: 4
Both: 4
Neither: 1


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Sometimes, being a *"baal-khaal udheRak"* is necessary!



Just realized that I neglected to acknowledge and appreciate this creative construction. I like it!

Off-topic: I think the -_ak _suffix could be very handy in Urdu word-minting. How about _jaaNchak _for auditor, for example?


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Ghalat-ul-3aam is considered a _correct usage_ in language. At least per my Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3. Please see the definition below (image).
> 
> Secondly, I would like to ask Faylasoof and QP saahibaan this question. How many times (roughly) have you folks come across _buraa manaanaa_ in the _badnaam karnaa_ sense, in your (mashaa'Allah) long lives? I'm honestly curious to know.
> 
> Just as a point of comparison, I ran an informal poll on my facebook about _buraa maan_naa/manaanaa_ and got 20+ responses with several shades of meaning, but mostly hovering around taking offence and so on. I'd guess about 3/4th of the respondents are native Urdu speakers. Not a single one came up with the dictionary meaning you quoted (_badnaam karnaa_). Not to say that the meaning you quote is wrong, but it seems to me to be a museum piece. Just my $.02. Of course, your mileage may vary.
> 
> View attachment 10748


The definition of Ghalat-ul-3aam, according to Farhang-i-Asifiyyah is a little more elaborate.

"3aam Ghalatii jise sab log isti3maal kareN magar istilaaH meN vuh baat jis ko bi_ittifaaq tamaam zabaaN-daanoN ne bhii ba-baa3is-i-fasaaHat apne muHaavare meN isti3maal kar ke shi3r-o-suxan meN bartaa ho. chunaaNchih isii sabab se Ghalat-ul-3aam fasiiH-un ko sab 3ulamaa-o-fusaHaa ne bi_littifaaq isti3maal kiyaa hai. masal-an mansab ba-jaa'e mansib...

Regarding "buraa manaanaa" and Faylasoof SaaHib's explanation..

برا منانا _buraa manaanaa = حقیر كرنا Haqiir karnaa, برا بنانا buraa banaanaa, بدنام كرنا bad-naam karnaa, ملزم بناناmulzim banaanaa 


_...if you think about it logically, there is nothing untoward about it whatsoever.

buraa likhnaa = to right bad (ly)
buraa likhaanaa = cause someone to write bad (ly)

Similarly buraa maan_naa = consider (something/someone) bad
buraa manaanaa = cause someone to consider something/someone bad..

So if you are causing one person to consider someone as bad, then you are demeaning or defaming the second person or making him look bad. To answer your question, I had not considered "buraa manaanaa" in this light but to the best of my knowledge I had experience of its usage in the same light as buraa maan_naa. Perhaps, this may be connected with some Punjabi influence. 

You seem to be good at conducting these polls. Ever thought of taking it up as a full time occupation?


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## UrduMedium

^ I do not think _buraa maan_naa = consider (something/someone) bad_ is the meaning we have been debating in this thread. Leaving aside whether or not even this is a legit usage of the phrase. What we have been talking about are the meanings such as: taking offense, to be cross, etc. If you are generous enough agree with this, then the "logical" progression does not apply, at least to our topic at hand.

Also, please let us know if you ever heard anyone express this meaning (_badnaam karnaa_) with _buraa maan_naa_? I'm sorry for being a pest 

Off -topic: Thank you for your kind evaluation of my pollster potential


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ I do not think _buraa maan_naa = consider (something/someone) bad_ is the meaning we have been debating in this thread. Leaving aside whether or not even this is a legit usage of the phrase. What we have been talking about are the meanings such as: taking offense, to be cross, etc. If you are generous enough agree with this, then the "logical" progression does not apply, at least to our topic at hand.
> 
> Also, please let us know if you ever heard anyone express this meaning (_badnaam karnaa_) with _buraa maan_naa_? I'm sorry for being a pest
> 
> Off -topic: Thank you for your kind evaluation of my pollster potential


UM SaaHib, if you read my post once again, You will see that I have already answered your question. If you still feel I have n't or am avoiding the issue, please let me know and I shall make another attempt.


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## greatbear

UM, your FB poll has enabled me now to understand what exactly might be meant by "buraa manaanaa" - and this new light also enables me to appreciate it so much that I would straightaway incorporate it into my speech!
To see "buraa manaanaa" as "khaana"-"khilaanaa" pair is the mistake! Rather, it is like "maatam manaanaa" - where "manaanaa" means to make an occasion of something. Here, when a person keeps holding a grudge against someone, keeps a "ranjish" - then he is like making an occasion of the "buraa", of the offence, not just taking offence ("buraa maannaa"). This is now my interpretation - similar to IH's in your poll - based on mere logic, as of course I do not how it is used. But taking this logic, it's not even the so-called "Ghalat ul 3aam"!

Thanks anyway for the invaluable poll - not just for how many said what, but especially for what was the gist of their opinions.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> ...if you think about it logically, there is nothing untoward about it whatsoever.
> 
> buraa likhnaa = to right bad (ly)
> buraa likhaanaa = cause someone to write bad (ly)
> 
> Similarly buraa maan_naa = consider (something/someone) bad
> buraa manaanaa = cause someone to consider something/someone bad..
> 
> So if you are causing one person to consider someone as bad, then you are demeaning or defaming the second person or making him look bad.



You have already said the same thing in post 24; why are you going over ground covered once again? I don't see any point, even more so as the ongoing debate is about "taking offence" meaning of "buraa maannaa", not "consider something/someone bad"!


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> Ghalat-ul-3aam is considered a _correct usage_ in language. At least per my Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3. Please see the definition below (image).
> 
> Secondly, I would like to ask Faylasoof and QP saahibaan this question. How many times (roughly) have you folks come across _buraa manaanaa_ in the _badnaam karnaa_ sense, in your (mashaa'Allah) long lives? I'm honestly curious to know.
> 
> Just as a point of comparison, I ran an informal poll on my facebook about _buraa maan_naa/manaanaa_ and got 20+ responses with several shades of meaning, but mostly hovering around taking offence and so on. I'd guess about 3/4th of the respondents are native Urdu speakers. Not a single one came up with the dictionary meaning you quoted (_badnaam karnaa_). Not to say that the meaning you quote is wrong, but it seems to me to be a museum piece. Just my $.02. Of course, your mileage may vary.
> 
> View attachment 10748


In a sense I answered this earlier:


Faylasoof said:


> Originally Posted by *UrduMedium*
> ^ To summarize, so buraa manaanaa = badnaam karnaa/mulzim banaanaa?
> 
> 
> 
> That's certainly very new to me.
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly is uncommon, but I just checked my Urdu lexicons and this meaning exists.
Click to expand...


...and,


Faylasoof said:


> ....
> Yes QP SaaHIb, _buraa_ _maannaa_ and _manaanaa _cannot really be equivalent. _*Perhaps given the latter meaning's rare, correct usage resulted in this confusion *__*sometime back. *_So _buraa manaanaa_ does exist but its current usage, now apparently rather common, seems quite improper.


 Emphasis added! Unlike you, I haven't conducted a poll, but the point I'm making is that the way _buraa manaanaa_ is being used seems incorrect and its meaning is no different from _buraa maannaa_ - confirmed by going through many news items in Urdu on the net. Hardly surprising since this is not the first example of Ghalat-ul-3aam in existence (and which we happen to be discussing) nor shall it be the last. Besides, in recent times anything and everything, right or wrong, can go "viral" on the net and all kinds of terms, including those used in an indiscriminate manner seem to proliferate. To me, so far, there appears no difference in the way the two terms (_mannaa_ and _manaanaa_) are being used here. 

Now I have a small request for you. As I at present no longer have my copy of Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3, could you tell us what this lexicon has to say about _buraa manaanaa_ and how it might be distinguishing it from _buraa mannaa_? I'm really curious to know.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> ^ I agree with you Faylasoof SaaHib. Some "Ghalat-ul-3aam" words have no doubt found a place in Standard Urdu and one can say with some measure of certainty that there will be others which will also become absorbed into the spoken and written language. Only recently the word "rihaa'ish" came up in the conversation and Josh from Maleehabad (1894-1982) did not have the slightest respect for anyone using it. But, it is part of the language now and probably most people don't even know why it was considered to be wrong.
> 
> All this however does not mean that we should not try to speak and write our language/s in a way that is considered to be the norm of the best of its practitioners, whether living or deceased. Until the best speakers and writers of the language start using "aap bahut achchhe ho", it will remain wrong for me and I won't use it deliberately and it will most certainly not roll off my tongue unintentionally. And until Zia Mohyiddin hands a "fool/fuul" to his "fuufii", I shall refrain from such practice and consider the object a "phuul" and the good lady, his "phuuphii"!


QP SaaHib this is very much the way I'd like to proceed with Urdu! Take the example of the best practitioners, knowing full well that in this language, as in any other living language, there will be changes and some will enrich the language but some might not. Languages do need to evolve but not all changes are ‘good’. 

As I mention above, the way _mannaa_ and _manaanaa_ are being used with _buraa_ seems to convey the same meaning. So I’m not sure how the current use of the latter combination (_buraa manaanaa_) enriches the language.

Yes, I'm familiar with this point and Josh's views on it. He had other, also very interesting views, on Urdu usage.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> In a sense I answered this earlier:
> 
> 
> ...and,
> Emphasis added! Unlike you, I haven't conducted a poll, but the point I'm making is that the way _buraa manaanaa_ is being used seems incorrect and its meaning is no different from _buraa maannaa_ - confirmed by going through many news items in Urdu on the net. Hardly surprising since this is not the first example of Ghalat-ul-3aam in existence (and which we happen to be discussing) nor shall it be the last. Besides, in recent times anything and everything, right or wrong, can go "viral" on the net and all kinds of terms, including those used in an indiscriminate manner seem to proliferate. To me, so far, there appears no difference in the way the two terms (_mannaa_ and _manaanaa_) are being used here.
> 
> Now I have a small request for you. As I at present no longer have my copy of Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3, could you tell us what this lexicon has to say about _buraa manaanaa_ and how it might be distinguishing it from _buraa mannaa_? I'm really curious to know.



Faylasoof SaaHib. This was my reason for starting the thread. To me it appeared that the two forms existed in speech with the meaning of "buraa maan_naa". I feel that to use "buraa manaanaa" to express "buraa maan_naa" is wrong. 

To answer the question you have put to UM SaaHib. I have not found "buraa manaanaa" in any of the several dictionaries in my possession including Feroz-ul-Lughaat. And I am not surprised!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib. This was my reason for starting the thread. To me it appeared that the two forms existed in speech with the meaning of "buraa maan_naa". I feel that to use "buraa manaanaa" to express "buraa maan_naa" is wrong.
> 
> To answer the question you have put to UM SaaHib. I have not found "buraa manaanaa" in any of the several dictionaries in my possession including Feroz-ul-Lughaat. And I am not surprised!


 Yes I do see your point about the thread QP SaaHib. Also, thanks for letting me know about the absence of _buraa manaanaa_ in the Urdu lexicons you have.


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> In a sense I answered this earlier:
> 
> 
> ...and,
> Emphasis added! Unlike you, I haven't conducted a poll, but the point I'm making is that the way _buraa manaanaa_ is being used seems incorrect and its meaning is no different from _buraa maannaa_ - confirmed by going through many news items in Urdu on the net. Hardly surprising since this is not the first example of Ghalat-ul-3aam in existence (and which we happen to be discussing) nor shall it be the last. *Besides, in recent times anything and everything, right or wrong, can go "viral" on the net and all kinds of terms, including those used in an indiscriminate manner seem to proliferate.* To me, so far, there appears no difference in the way the two terms (_mannaa_ and _manaanaa_) are being used here.
> 
> *Now I have a small request for you. As I at present no longer have my copy of Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3, could you tell us what this lexicon has to say about buraa manaanaa and how it might be distinguishing it from buraa mannaa? I'm really curious to know.*



Feroz-ul-LuGhaat Jaami3 indeed does not list _buraa manaanaa_. That does not negate the fact that this usage is widespread (and Ghalat-ul-3aam per you) and not sourced from some wacky "viral" internet fever. I'm talking from a lifetime of speaking the language, most of it predating the internet 

Sometime I feel our tendency to "throw the book" too often tends to take away from the richness of these exchanges that comes from sharing our lifelong personal experiences.


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> UM, your FB poll has enabled me now to understand what exactly might be meant by "buraa manaanaa" - and this new light also enables me to appreciate it so much that I would straightaway incorporate it into my speech!
> To see "buraa manaanaa" as "khaana"-"khilaanaa" pair is the mistake! Rather, it is like "maatam manaanaa" - where "manaanaa" means to make an occasion of something. Here, when a person keeps holding a grudge against someone, keeps a "ranjish" - then he is like making an occasion of the "buraa", of the offence, not just taking offence ("buraa maannaa"). This is now my interpretation - similar to IH's in your poll - based on mere logic, as of course I do not how it is used. But taking this logic, it's not even the so-called "Ghalat ul 3aam"!
> 
> Thanks anyway for the invaluable poll - not just for how many said what, but especially for what was the gist of their opinions.



You got it right, greatbear. Thank you for your kind words and sentiment.


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## marrish

It seems we are dealing here with a contamination of (_kisii kaa)_ _buraa maan_naa_ with a merger of what follows:

- ''*manaanaa*'', whose various meanings and usages have been meticuously described by F. and QP SaaHib;

منانا मनाना manānā [*caus. of mānnā;—manā˚ = mān˚+ā *= āw = Prk. आव or आवे=S. आपि caus. augment] [Platts]

and:

- ''*mannaanaa*'' (!) which has a different etymology altogether, the meaning of which is of interest here, as we've been discussing

the semantical scope of 'taking offence', etc.

H منانا मन्नाना mannānā [*mannā˚ = Prk. मन्नावे(इ)*=S. मन्य(ते)+ आपि caus. augment], v.n. *To be or become offended or angry*;—to raise its hood (a snake). [Platts 1884].

H منانا मन्नाना mannā'nā, v. n. 1. To raise its hood (a snake).* 2. To be offended or angry. *[Fallon 1879]*

मन्नाना *अ० [हि० मान या मन] १. (साँप का) फन उठाना। २. *मन में बहुत अप्रसन्न या नाराज होना [man meN bahut aprasanna yaa naaraaj (naaraaz) honaa]*।

This attested form and its meaning certainly hint at the reason why ''buraa man(n)aanaa'' is ''alive and kicking'' in Urdu. Further to it, it is clear why the expression "_manaanaa_'' with the qualifier ''_buraa_" has not been attested by any Urdu lexicon, which is a fact that can but be acknowledged.


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## UrduMedium

^ The way you described _mannaanaa_, isn't the _buraa _prefix redundant (or a mismatch) there?

I've not heard this word (_mannaanaa_) before. The snake analogy leads me to believe this has nothing to do with the _buraa manaanaa_ the way we have been discussing it. 

Interesting find, though, marrish saahab.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Sometime I feel our tendency to "throw the book" too often tends to take away from the richness of these exchanges that comes from sharing our lifelong personal experiences.



Please see "Padamshri Dr.Gopichand Narang Sahab-02" on Youtube.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> It seems we are dealing here with a contamination of (_kisii kaa)_ _buraa maan_naa_ with a merger of what follows:
> 
> - ''*manaanaa*'', whose various meanings and usages have been meticuously described by F. and QP SaaHib;
> 
> منانا मनाना manānā [*caus. of mānnā;—manā˚ = mān˚+ā *= āw = Prk. आव or आवे=S. आपि caus. augment] [Platts]
> 
> and:
> 
> - ''*mannaanaa*'' (!) which has a different etymology altogether, the meaning of which is of interest here, as we've been discussing
> 
> the semantical scope of 'taking offence', etc.
> 
> H منانا मन्नाना mannānā [*mannā˚ = Prk. मन्नावे(इ)*=S. मन्य(ते)+ आपि caus. augment], v.n. *To be or become offended or angry*;—to raise its hood (a snake). [Platts 1884].
> 
> H منانا मन्नाना mannā'nā, v. n. 1. To raise its hood (a snake).* 2. To be offended or angry. *[Fallon 1879]*
> 
> मन्नाना *अ० [हि० मान या मन] १. (साँप का) फन उठाना। २. *मन में बहुत अप्रसन्न या नाराज होना [man meN bahut aprasanna yaa naaraaj (naaraaz) honaa]*।
> 
> This attested form and its meaning certainly hint at the reason why ''buraa man(n)aanaa'' is ''alive and kicking'' in Urdu. Further to it, it is clear why the expression "_manaanaa_'' with the qualifier ''_buraa_" has not been attested by any Urdu lexicon, which is a fact that can but be acknowledged.


This is a very plausible explanation where "buraa" is kept because "mannaanaa" is being perceived as "manaanaa".


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> ... but not all changes are ‘good’.



Who decides that?


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## greatbear

UrduMedium said:


> You got it right, greatbear. Thank you for your kind words and sentiment.



You are welcome  It is you who I must thank, for leading me to add a new expression in my corpus.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Just realized that I neglected to acknowledge and appreciate this creative construction. I like it!
> 
> Off-topic: I think the -_ak _suffix could be very handy in Urdu word-minting. How about _jaaNchak _for auditor, for example?


Thank you. I am all for using appropriate affixes to expand the language's repertoire.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Both are indeed used in Urdu but with different meanings!
> 
> _agar aap log buraa nah maaneN to jo urduu ham sunte aa’e haiN us meN buraa manaane ke ma3ne kuchh aur hii haiN! _
> 
> 
> برا منانا  _buraa manaanaa_ = حقیر كرنا _Haqiir karnaa_, برا بنانا _buraa banaanaa_, بدنام كرنا _bad-naam karnaa_, ملزم بنانا _mulzim banaanaa _
> 
> 
> _magar buraa mannaa yaa maan jaanaa_ _yaa_ _buraa maan baiThnaa_ _sab hii taqriiban eksaaN Taur par musta3mal haiN! [...]_



janaab, shukriyah. This information will come no doubt handy if I come across this expression in the literature, for the proper understanding.


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Here's my facebook question and few of the interesting responses (none is mine, all four native Urdu speakers):
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Urdu/Hindi language poll: Which one sounds correct to your ears?
> 
> A) us ne meri baat ka bura maana
> B) us ne meri baat ka bura manaaya
> 
> Extra credit: If both sound good, please distinguish their usage.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your polls are very much appreciated, do conduct them more if you can.

The discussion reached a tangent when Faylasoof SaaHib provided the literary definitions for ''buraa manaanaa'', which turned out has a different meaning, and stated that this different usage was Ghalat-ul-3aam, which got on the nerves of some. But the question that has been forgotten to pose is whether the expression of F. SaaHib is governed by the same syntax as in your poll sentence?


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## greatbear

Meanwhile, just to expand the repertoire of "manaanaa" itself, the word also means "to pray for, to wish for, to desire" (intransitive) - I heard the word in a "Bharat Ek Khoj" episode last night, though I think people have been forgetting this fine usage of the word more and more.
Example: "aap to bas ab yahii manaaiye ki aapkaa vakiil poorii mehnat kare" (almost like "duaa kareN" here)

Off-topic: the purists here can learn something from here


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## Qureshpor

Originally Posted by *UrduMedium* 


Sometime I feel our tendency to "throw the book" too often tends to take away from the richness of these exchanges that comes from sharing our lifelong personal experiences.


QURESHPOR said:


> Please see "Padamshri Dr.Gopichand Narang Sahab-02" on Youtube.


I hope you have had time to see this short video where Professor Gopi Chand Narang relates two incidents in the lives of Anees and DipTii Nazeer Ahmad. I would just like to make one point once and for all which will clear my position regarding what is acceptable and what is not in Urdu. I believe Faylasoof SaaHib has similar views and I am sure he will correct me if I am assigning something to him which is not true.

I think we may be talking cross purposes. I have always advocated that any usage e.g "aap baiTho" is governed by the speakers. Just like "rihaa'ish" has become accepted into speech and literature, when "aap baitho" becomes the accepted norm, then no one will have any problem with it. We will all accept it and move on. But until this happens, "aap baitho", "maiN ne karnaa hai", "fal", "fir", "fuul", fuufii", "taraajuu", "maazraa", "azeeb" and "chaar laRkiyaaN baazar jaa rahiiN haiN" will be wrong for me.

We all have our views but I do not believe we can put buraa manaanaa in the same category as "sog manaanaa" or "xushii manaanaa". We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Faylasoof

QP SaaHib, I have very similar / the same views to yours! However, I’d merely add this as clarification for others that when in the past I’ve said that I believe in keeping our linguistic standards high (in some very old threads), I was of course referring to the language of the educated in general. Needless to say they are as much part of the people as the less fortunate (and sadly still the majority in our part of the world) who don’t get the chance of good education and language training or get no education at all.  Our (best) prose writers and poets being obviously from the people also quite obviously write / wrote for the people using standard Urdu. So why not use their example or indeed that of those around you who too use standard Urdu. The issue here can sometimes be that despite the best intentions some around you may use grammatically incorrect Urdu as a matter of habit. Over the last 60 odd years Urdu standards on both sides of the border have suffered. I feel that the use of _buraa manaanaa_ for _buraa maannaa_ is one such example.  

A short discussion on this very topic took place in _urduu maHfil_ sometime ago. From the discussion it is clear that the use of _buraa manaanaa_ (for _buraa mannaa_) is rampant in Pakistan, as indicated by one poster. This was in response to a poem posted by someone. The responses that followed discussed many points of the poem but the remark below, and some others, make it clear what was one of the objections:

برا مانا جاتا ہے۔ برا "منانا" غلط محاورہ ہے
_buraa maanaa jaataa hai. buraa “manaanaa” Ghalat muHaawarah hai_

Nobody here is dictating to others! Some of us are just pointing out that there might be an issue here. Since we distinguish _buraa bannaa_ from _buraa banaanaaa_ why then mix up _maannaa_ and _manaanaa_. One can of course understand that those who have been using _buraa manaanaa_ all their life, where others would instead use _buraa maannaa_, will not see the problem but they should also understand the position held by the latter:

مانا  كہ  فرق  ضرور ماننے اور منانے  میں  ہے دقیق
اك عمر ہم كو بھی گزری ہے زبان  ریختہ بولتے ہوئے

_maanaa keh farq Dharuur maanne aur manaane meN hai daqiiq_
_ik 3umr   ham   ko   bhii  guzrii   hai   zabaan-e-riixtah   bolte   hue_


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## greatbear

How unfortunate a stance in posts 67 and 68: I hope not many Urdu members adopt such a position or continue to have one, as otherwise it would be the inevitable death of a beautiful language.


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## Faylasoof

How “innocent” a stand in post 69. The poster has no idea what is being said in the two posts he refers to!


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> Nobody here is dictating to others! Some of us are just pointing out that there might be an issue here. Since we distinguish _buraa bannaa_ from _buraa banaanaaa_ why then mix up _maannaa_ and _manaanaa_. One can of course understand that those who have been using _buraa manaanaa_ all their life, where others would instead use _buraa maannaa_, will not see the problem but they should also understand the position held by the latter:



Clarification. Many of us (including yours truly) have been using lifelong both _buraa maan_naa_ and _buraa manaanaa_. And there was sufficient discussion to show they are not the same, and carry different meanings and moods. So this is not an either/or scenario.


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## Qureshpor

UM SaaHib, would my understanding be correct if I said that the gist of this thread, so far as "buraa manaanaa" is concerned is that:-

1) Some people use it interchangeably with "buraa maan_naa"

2) The meaning that Faylasoof SaaHib has furnished, essentially being equivalent to "duusroN kii nazroN meN kisii ko buraa banaanaa" or as per McGregor's definition ""to cause to loose credit or standing."

3) Your explanation that it is a process, perhaps similar to the process of xushii manaanaa ?

I just wish to add that McGregor's dictionary published in 1993, which I am sure you would not consider a "museum piece", does not have your meaning (if I have understood you correctly).


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> UM SaaHib, would my understanding be correct if I said that the gist of this thread, so far as "buraa manaanaa" is concerned is that:-
> 
> 1) Some people use it interchangeably with "buraa maan_naa"
> 
> 2) The meaning that Faylasoof SaaHib has furnished, essentially being equivalent to "duusroN kii nazroN meN kisii ko buraa banaanaa" or as per McGregor's definition ""to cause to loose credit or standing."
> 
> 3) Your explanation that it is a process, perhaps similar to the process of xushii manaanaa ?
> 
> I just wish to add that McGregor's dictionary published in 1993, which I am sure you would not consider a "museum piece", does not have your meaning (if I have understood you correctly).



To me the quoted meaning (#2 above) is a museum piece unless one of the many native Urdu speakers on this forum attest that it is part of their language repertoire or that they have heard it from other native speakers with some frequency (some real-life examples will be helpful too). #3 above is not a good summary of what I shared across many posts. But I do not have the desire or energy to repeat that here. If anyone is interested, they can read my posts and appreciate the nuanced meanings.

Also seeing another post from you referring to McGregor, it seems that is a Hindi dictionary. I have not argued from Hindi perspective at all, just so you know.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> To me the quoted meaning (#2 above) is a museum piece unless one of the many native Urdu speakers on this forum attest that it is part of their language repertoire or that they have heard it from other native speakers with some frequency (some real-life examples will be helpful too). #3 above is not a good summary of what I shared across many posts. But I do not have the desire or energy to repeat that here. If anyone is interested, they can read my posts and appreciate the nuanced meanings.


Thank you for your kind reply, UM SaaHib. Let's wait for the "many native Urdu speakers".


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you for your kind reply, UM SaaHib. Let's wait for the "many native Urdu speakers".



You are very welcome Qureshpor saahab 

"one of the many native Urdu speakers" is a more accurate quote from what I wrote, in my humble view. It's not a tall order. Meaning, let's at least have one native speaker vouch from personal experience for the McGregor meaning with some real examples.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> You are very welcome Qureshpor saahab
> 
> "one of the many native Urdu speakers" is a more accurate quote from what I wrote, in my humble view. It's not a tall order. Meaning, let's at least have one native speaker vouch from personal experience for the McGregor meaning with some real examples.


Well, God forbid, I do not qualify to enter the competition but as far back as post 46, I had said this..

_To answer your question, I had not considered "buraa manaanaa" in this light but to the best of my knowledge I had experience of its usage in the same light as buraa maan_naa. Perhaps, this may be connected with some Punjabi influence. 
_
Perhaps if I had added the word "only" after "usage" in the second line, the matter may have been clearer.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> You are very welcome Qureshpor saahab
> 
> "one of the many native Urdu speakers" is a more accurate quote from what I wrote, in my humble view. It's not a tall order. Meaning, let's at least have one native speaker vouch from personal experience for the McGregor meaning with some real examples.


Apologies for my misreading your reply. I assure you, it was not deliberate.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Well, God forbid, I do not qualify to enter the competition but as far back as post 46, I had said this..
> 
> _To answer your question, I had not considered "buraa manaanaa" in this light but to the best of my knowledge I had experience of its usage in the same light as buraa maan_naa. Perhaps, this may be connected with some Punjabi influence.
> _
> Perhaps if I had added the word "only" after "usage" in the second line, the matter may have been clearer.



QP saahab, you indeed qualify for the "competition'. Very much so in my book, indeed!

I reread your quoted response in #46. There seems to be some misunderstanding here. I was looking for someone to vouch for the meaning (McGregor) quoted initially by Faylasoof saahab. I do not get the sense from your post (or the quote above) that, that's what you are saying. Am I missing something? Are you saying you use _buraa manaanaa_ in your everyday usage in the meaning of _taHqiir karna_ and so on?


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## Qureshpor

^ No, I have said that I use buraa maan_naa for buraa maan_naa but some people use buraa manaa_naa for buraa maan_naa! Also what I have said is that I am not aware of your meaning. I did n't say I use "buraa manaanaa" the way Faylasoof SaaHib (and McGregor) have explained. I was not aware of this meaning prior to this thread. I hope this clarifies my position.


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## Qureshpor

Three more examples that I have managed to find on the net which point to the usage of "buraa manaanaa" for "buraa maan_naa".

In the first example, the ethnicity or mother tongue language of the Ghazal writer is not known. However the person correcting is janaab-i-Sarwar. A. Raz SaaHib, whom I have mentioned before in this forum. He hails from Chandpur, his mother tongue is Urdu and he is a poet.

http://www.bazm.urduanjuman.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3043.0

"yeh donoN achhe she'r haiN. daad! waise Urdu meN :buraa manaanaa: naheeN :buraa maan,naa: musta'mil hai. u'rf-e-a'am meN :manaanaa: keh lete haiN." Sarwar. A. Raz

The second link provides a Ghazal with maan_naa but the "critic" uses "manaanaa". Language background of both writers is not known.

http://forum.urdujahaan.com/viewtopic.php?p=11835

The third example is taken from an Urdu poetry forum. The person whose piece I am copying here is a mother tongue Urdu speaker.

"aap ne jo baat kahi hai use maiN dhyaan meN aayindah rakkhuNga magar ek baat aur hai jo maiN kahna chaahuNga aur voh yeh ki "urdu~shaa'irii" to Islaamii naZriyaat/noqaa't se to bharii paRi hai. kisi baat ko samajhne yaa samjhaane ke liye agar koi Diinii yaa dunyaavii baat ka tazkirah aa jaaye to uska bura nahiN *manaanaa* chahiye, mere khayaal se."


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> A short discussion on this very topic took place in _urduu maHfil_ sometime ago. From the discussion it is clear that the use of _buraa manaanaa_ (for _buraa mannaa_) is rampant in Pakistan, as indicated by one poster. This was in response to a poem posted by someone. The responses that followed discussed many points of the poem but the remark below, and some others, make it clear what was one of the objections:
> 
> برا مانا جاتا ہے۔ برا "منانا" غلط محاورہ ہے
> 
> _buraa maanaa jaataa hai. buraa “manaanaa” Ghalat muHaawarah hai _


 As a matter of interest, Faylasoof SaaHib, I know the gentleman in question whose nazm was under scrutiny. Frankly, I am a little surprised at his slip-ups, in the case of "vazn" especially. He is a master in this field. 

I have quoted Sarwar Raz SaaHib in one of the posts in this thread. I don't know if when he says "u'rf-e-a'am meN :manaanaa: keh lete haiN" he means both India and Pakistan or only Pakistan.

Edit: I have searched in an Urdu poetry forum (ALUP) and am able to make three more additions to the usage of "buraa manaanaa".

The first gentleman's mother tongue is Telegu although he grew up in Delhi.

"doyam, gustaaKhi mu'aaf, lekin aap agar *buraa na manaayeN* to 'arz hai k maiN naacheez bhI yahaaN Zaf-ji ke qaul se muttafiq hooN." (UVR)

"aap to sharmindah kar rahe haiN Yogesh sahib ... aalim-faazil logoN ki tashreeh dehi se hi to mujh jaise naa_sh'aair ke sh'eroN meiN kuchh jaan aati hai – *buraa manaa kar* maiN aisi tashreeh se bhala kyoN haath dho Daalna chahooNga?"  (UVR)

Unfortunately, I do not know what is janaab-i-Yogesh Sethi's mother tongue. But I believe he is from India.

"ummiid hai aap hamaarii tasriih dene kaa *buraa nahii.n manae.nge*. aap ke kayii khayalaat bahut achhe hai.n, magar kuchh misro.n ko sudhaarnaa pa.Degaa.  agar aap kii koii aur bhii naii ghazal ho to use zaruur post kare.n."  (Yogesh  Sethi)

Last but not least, here is a quote from janaab-i-Raj Kumar "Qais" SaaHib, an Urdu poet hailing from the Punjab. Originally from Lahore but after partition his family moved to India. I think it may have been Delhi.

"ab itni taakheer ke baad main us session ka 'iftetaah' kar rahaa hoon jis ka vaa'da pichhle Mangal ke din kiya tha. agar aap *buraa na manaa’en* to main phir se aap ki yaad-dihaani ke liye aek baat dohraa doon --- woh  yeh ke.."  (Raj Kumar “Qais”)

I have not yet found anything which reflects the type of meaning which UM SaaHib has in mind.


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## greatbear

I thought the more urgent need was to find anything that reflects that museum piece meaning in the mind (and grammar books) of Faylasoof; at least that's what some of us have been asking for since a loooong time.


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## Qureshpor

UM SaaHib. I have furnished a number of examples where people have used "buraa manaanaa" instead of "buraa maan_naa" in writing. I have not come across any examples of "buraa manaanaa" usage in the sense of "kisii ko buraa banaanaa", which you have portrayed as a "museum piece". Have you encountered any examples of usage of your ultra-modern connotation of "buraa manaanaa" in speech (e.g Youtube etc) or writing?


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> UM SaaHib. I have furnished a number of examples where people have used "buraa manaanaa" instead of "buraa maan_naa" in writing. I have not come across any examples of "buraa manaanaa" usage in the sense of "kisii ko buraa banaanaa", which you have portrayed as a "museum piece". Have you encountered any examples of usage of your ultra-modern connotation of "buraa manaanaa" in speech (e.g Youtube etc) or writing?



No, I have not tried to look to validate my "ultra-modern" meaning (sarcasm noted!) through literary citations. I was speaking from personal experience and the approximate validation I received from my poll is sufficient for me. Secondly, my distinction of _manaanaa _vs _maan_naa _is more of a continuum and nuance, not a radical new idea. What really does needs validation is what I referred to as the "museum piece". I appreciate your candor in reporting positively that you did not find that meaning anywhere. Knowing your penchant and talent for research, that's pretty conclusive for me. I guess that applies to my "ultra-modern" meaning too since you did not find that either. However, I'm content with that based on my personal experience and my informal polling. Sadly, I've resigned to the fact that it will not be sufficient for you  But that's OK and we move on ...


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## Qureshpor

^ Had I found your variation on the theme UM SaaHib, as endorsed by Facebook scholarship (this time sarcasm intended), I would indeed have said so. Regarding the "museum piece", there is no doubt in my mind that the older dictionaries and the more modern McGregor's (1993) have only included it amongst its entries because of its occurrence both in speech and writing. But, as you have indicated, whether we find examples or not, either way, is OK because our lives or livelihoods are not dependant upon them. We are having intellectual discussions and that's all. There is nothing personal to fight over and no "Brownie points" to be had.


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## UrduMedium

^ Thanks, QP saahab. Well said about the nature of discussion and lack of brownie points  

I would add one more thing. The value of this forum in my eyes is what each of us brings as individuals from our lifelong experiences. Those experiences are not found in any books or lexicons. Otherwise, we live in the age of free and abundant information where looking up dictionaries and searching through the texts of books is at least a few orders of magnitude easier than even just twenty-five years ago.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Thanks, QP saahab. Well said about the nature of discussion and lack of brownie points
> 
> I would add one more thing. The value of this forum in my eyes is what each of us brings as individuals from our lifelong experiences. Those experiences are not found in any books or lexicons. Otherwise, we live in the age of free and abundant information where looking up dictionaries and searching through the texts of books is at least a few orders of magnitude easier than even just twenty-five years ago.


I agree wholeheartedly with bringing in life experiences. I also agree that we are living in an age in which access to information is markedly easier than it was only a few years back. However (you knew a "however" was coming up!), these sources, be they dictionaries, books of prose or verse or other written materials, do serve a very important function and we should not divorce ourselves from them, for they are good sources to check usage and abusage.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with bringing in life experiences. I also agree that we are living in an age in which access to information is markedly easier than it was only a few years back. However (you knew a "however" was coming up!), these sources, be they dictionaries, books of prose or verse or other written materials, do serve a very important function and we should not divorce ourselves from them, for they are good sources to find usage and abusage.


 Agreed. I never implied "divorcing" these valuable sources. You an I could consult them without coming to this forum and resolve most of the mysteries that way. Yet we do come here. So the _real _value of the "forum" is in learning from each other's experiences and interactions. Secondarily, those interactions will invoke the "sources" and that has a legitimate place in every discussion. It's just a matter of what comes first and what follows, at least in a "forum" context.


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## Qureshpor

^ Let us agree that both experiences have their place and we need not assign different magnitudes of importance to each. Different people will have different priorities. I have always been the "muu-shigaaf" type and won't necessarily accept someone's word for it, just for the sake of it. You yourself have sought Ghalib's verse to provide you with the "istinaad" for "SaaHab".  I try to seek "evidence". Sometimes people make stereotypical remarks about language matters and language users without any backing for their views. You must have witnessed in the forum what I am talking about.

I don't believe it is everyone's cup of tea to look up sources which on occasions may not be available or easily accessible to one party but are in possession of or readily available to another. The "real value" of the forum is likely to vary from person to person. It depends on what one wants to get out of it.


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## UrduMedium

^ OK. Agreed.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> As a matter of interest, Faylasoof SaaHib, I know the gentleman in question whose nazm was under scrutiny. Frankly, I am a little surprised at his slip-ups, in the case of "vazn" especially. He is a master in this field.
> 
> I have quoted Sarwar Raz SaaHib in one of the posts in this thread. I don't know if when he says "u'rf-e-a'am meN :manaanaa: keh lete haiN" he means both India and Pakistan or only Pakistan.
> 
> Edit: I have searched in an Urdu poetry forum (ALUP) and am able to make three more additions to the usage of "buraa manaanaa".
> 
> The first gentleman's mother tongue is Telegu although he grew up in Delhi.
> ..................


 QP SaaHib, perhaps he was having a particularly bad day!

This I'm not sure of but as one Indian Urduphone said in the _urduu mahfil_ link I mentioned above (post#68), it seeme to be especially rampant in Pakistan. 

I was aware of this. I mean his mother tongue being Telgu.


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## Faylasoof

Without wasting too much time on this thread allow me to make a few points.

I had stated very early on that the usage of _buraa maanaanaa_ I gave was rare. This usage may well be a “museum piece”, but grammatically it makes perfect sense, unlike the current use of this term to actually mean _buraa maannaa_. It seems in Pakistan the former (_buraa maanaanaa_) has become common (please refer to the links in posts # 68 and 80 above) to mean the latter (_buraa maannaa_). So now, _buraa maannaa_, though still used in much of the Urdu speaking world, in Pakistan at least seems to have become a museum piece! 

As for the unique meaning suggested by UM SaaHib for _buraa manaanaa_ (supported by an unrepresentative and therefore not meaningful facebook poll – whoever heard of _urduu facebook-ul-lughaat_!), it can be treated as private usage amongst friends and let's just leave it at that. _jii,_ _mujhe nah to miiThii goliyaaN chaahiye aur nah niiNnd kii goliyaaN! _

[Incidentally, one of the subjects I’ve been teaching fellow biologists is (bio)statistics so I do know _how not to carry out statistical surveys_ and when not to swallow their results without critical questioning.]

Long before many of you joined the forum I had more than once suggested that we should try to revive old, forgotten terms but this is not the way to do it, i.e. by giving arbitrary, non-standardised meanings to them, or worse replacing a perfectly standard and established one for another with a defined usage, rare though the latter might be.

In the case of _buraa maanaanaa_ I have not found any unequivocal evidence despite many searches over the last few days of a meaning other than it being erroneously used instead of _buraa maannaa_ and *here* is one article which suggests that this trend, like some other dubious ones, started in the 70s. The author, _shaahidah tabassum_, a Karachi-based, well-versed Urduphone, is criticizing the degradation of the Urdu language:

بیسویں صدی کی ساتویں دہائی (1970ء) کے اواخر میں بول چال میں پھڈا، ٹھکیا اور پنگا جیسے الفاظ کثرت سے سنائی دینے لگے، نیز خواتین کی آپس میں گفتگو میں تخاطب کے لیے "یار" کا لفظ عام ہوا۔
*اس کے علاوہ برا ماننا کے بجائے برا منانا *اور "میرا نہیں خیال" جیسے اظہار سامنے آئے۔ یہ تبدیلی مثبت کم اور منفی زیادہ ہے۔ لیکن اب دانستہ طور پر اردو زبان کی بساط ہی لپیٹ دینے کی کوششیں کی جا رہی ہیں۔

زبانوں میں ترک و اختیار کا عمل ہمیشہ جاری ہے۔ اسی طرح زبانیں پھلتی پھولتی اور فروغ پاتی ہیں* لیکن اردو وہ مظلوم زبان ہے کہ جس کا جب، جہاں اور جیسے جی چاہا، اسے بدترین طور پر استعمال کر سکتا ہے۔  
*​

In case anyone needs a reference for the original meaning of _buraa manaanaa_ as suggested by yours truly, please try (again) some of the older (say,1950s and 60s) Urdu lexicons. I'm on the move and do not have access to my usual sources at home.


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## UrduMedium

^ Lagtaa hai kih hamaarii jasaarat kaa kuchh dostonN ne bohot *buraa manaayaa* hai . Hazraat agar aap *buraa na maaneN* to 3arz karuuN, kih yih donoN hii hamarii roz marrah zabaan kaa Hissah haiN. hamare liye in meN se koii bhii 3ajaa'ib ghar kaa naadir namuunah nahiiN hai.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ Lagtaa hai kih hamaarii jasaarat kaa kuchh dostonN ne bohot _buraa manaayaa_ hai. Hazraat agar aap _buraa na maaneN_ to 3arz karuuN, kih yih donoN hii hamarii roz marrah zabaan kaa Hissah haiN. hamare liye in meN se koii bhii 3ajaa'ib ghar kaa naadir namuunah nahiiN hai.



Huzuur-i-vaalaa, merii naa-chiiz raa’e meN aap kii baat kaa kisii ne buraa nahiiN maanaa chuuNkih go kisii bhii zabaan kaa ko’ii nah ko’ii mi3yaar rakhaa jaataa hai is kaa matlab yih bhii nahiiN kih har zabaan hamah-jaa yaksaan hai. jahaaN “miiTar” dunyaa-bhar meN ba-taur-i-kasauTii*, paimaaish kaa “3iyaar” maanaa jaataa hai vahaaN “qadam” “kos” “fuT”, “gaz”, "farlaaNg", "farsang" “miil” vaGhairah ke liye bhii jagah hai. Urdu kaa maidaan-i-3amal bahut vasii3 hai aur is vus3at meN guunaaguunii aur ixtilaaf kaa vujuud ek fitrii amr hai. yih jahaan kitnaa hii be-mazah ho jaa’e agar hamaarii zabaan par mukammal yaksaaniyyat chhaa jaa’e!

bas, zaruurat shaayad is baat kii hai kih ham sab ek duusre ke liye apne diloN meN kuchh vus3at paidaa kareN aur agar ittifaaq nahiiN ho saktaa phir bhii muxtalif aaraa' kii qadr (or is it qadar) kareN.

* is qism kii tarkiib ko 3umuum-an Ghalat samjaa jaataa hai!


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## UrduMedium

^ My post above was one more (tongue-in-cheek) attempt to distinguish the meaning of _buraa manaanaa_ and _buraa maan_naa, _in response to F saahab's preceding post, one with a healthy dose of sarcasm , where among other things, he declared _buraa maan_naa_ a "museum piece" in Pakistani Urdu.

Hope the usage distinction did not go unnoticed with you.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> ^ My post above was one more (tongue-in-cheek) attempt to distinguish the meaning of _buraa manaanaa_ and _buraa maan_naa, _in response to F saahab's preceding post, one with a healthy dose of sarcasm , where among other things, he declared _buraa maan_naa_ a "museum piece" in Pakistani Urdu. Hope the usage distinction did not go unnoticed with you.


lagtaa hai ki fariiqain ne ek ek "goal" kar liyaa hai. ab Hisaab baraabar ho gayaa hai. lihaazaa kisii na'e khel kaa aaGhaaz karnaa chaahie!

agar maiN 3arz karuuN kih, hazaar jatan ke baa-vujuud, mere kund zihn ne yih baariik-o-daqiiq farq abhii tak maHsuus nahiiN kiyaa to umiid hai kih aap buraa nahiiN maaneN ge.


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## UrduMedium

^ Well said


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## Faylasoof

_janaab  haDhrat-e-waalaa, buraa kisii ne nahiiN maanaa! is silsile meN faqiir yeh 3arDh kartaa hai:_

_is chowk (forum) par is TaraH kii nok-jhok chaltii hii raihtii hai aur agar aap is ke jald az jald 3aadii ho sakeN to fa-behaa. “3ajaa’ib ghar kii ek shae” kaa aNgrezii meN muHaawarah  aap ne paihle isti3maal kiyaa thaa to agar maiN ne is kaa jawaab de diyaa to is meN kyaa buraa huwaa? aap kaa xayaal naa-durust hai keh yahaaN kisii ne buraa maanaa aur nah hii manaayaa – is lafZ ke aSl ma3noN meN! _

_mujhe is se ko’ii inkaar nahiiN keh buraa manaanaa aur buraa maannaa donoN aap ke aur aap ke dost-o-aHbaab ke  wird-e-zabaan haiN. is badiihii baat se gurez karnaa meraa Haqq hargiz nahiiN magar in donoN alfaaZ meN jo aap ek daqiiq farq bayaan karte haiN us se to shaahidah tabassum SaaHibah bhi munkir naZar aatii haiN! diigar urduudaanoN kaa bhii yahii xayaal hai jin se maiN Haal meN mashGhuul-e-guftuguu huuN, chaahe woh hind-o-paakistaan se ta3alluq rekkheN yaa bairuun-e-mulk hoN, sab hii kaa yahii gumaan hai keh buraa maanaanaa paakistaan meN jaise Haalan  musta3mal hai fe3l-e-buraa maannaa ke woh in HaDhraat ke nazdiik qaT3an GhalaT thaabit hai – 3aam Dharuur hai magar hai GhalaT. yahii is naa-chiiz kii bhii raa’e hai jis meN woh qaT3ii Taur par munfarid nahiiN naZar aataa hai._

_ maziid yeh keh ka’ii maahiriin-e-urduu naHw-o-Sarf maujuudah musta3mal buraa manaanaa ko Ghair-mustanad urduu kaa HiSSah qaraar dete haiN. yeh unkii raa’e hai jis se yeh haqiir kisii qadr muttafiq hai, aur janaab ham logoN kaa shumaar nah to jabaabirah meN hai aur nah kisii TaGhuut kii maiHfil meN, lehaaZaa aap jis TaraH bhii in do alfaaZ ke ma3ne leN yeh aap kaa puuraa Haqq hai aur aap par mujh jaisaa SulH-kun aur aashtii pasand shaxs ko’ii paabandii nah Sirf laganaa chaahe gaa balkeh lagaa bhii nahiiN saktaa hai. haaN yeh Dharuur hai keh maiN aur diigar ham-xayaal log Ghair-mustanad ma3aanii aur Ghair-me3yaarii isti3maalaat se Hatman ijtinaab karnaa zabaan ke taHaffuz ke Haqq meN ek farDh samajhte haiN. yeh hamaaraa Haqq hai.  _

_umaid hai keh is mukaalame aur radd-o-badal ke ba3d ab ham donoN men ko’ii Ghalat faihmii kii gunjaa’ish nah rahii ho gii, 

ek muxliS-o-du3aa go

_


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> _ ..._
> _umaid hai keh is mukaalame aur radd-o-badal ke ba3d ab ham donoN men ko’ii Ghalat faihmii kii gunjaa’ish nah rahii ho gii,
> 
> _


Janaab Faylasoof saahab- There was never a "Ghalat faihmii"  You may have missed my post #95 above.

aap kii nek xaahishaat ka be Had shukriyah!

du3aa go,
UM


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> Janaab Faylasoof saahab- There was never a "Ghalat faihmii"  You may have missed my post #95 above.
> 
> aap kii nek xaahishaat ka be Had shukriyah!
> 
> du3aa go,
> UM


 _xush faihmii_ _kaa bahut bahut shukriyah!

PS: _"Ghalat faihmii"-- _I was thinking of one of you! _


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Please see "Padamshri Dr.Gopichand Narang Sahab-02" on Youtube.


Thanks, QP saahab for sharing this. It took me a while to catch up but I did just now. I couldn't agree more with the views expressed by Narang saahab!


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## tonyspeed

UrduMedium said:


> Agreed. I never implied "divorcing" these valuable sources. You an I could consult them without coming to this forum and resolve most of the mysteries that way. Yet we do come here. So the _real _value of the "forum" is in learning from each other's experiences and interactions. Secondarily, those interactions will invoke the "sources" and that has a legitimate place in every discussion. It's just a matter of what comes first and what follows, at least in a "forum" context.



This assumes that the members of the forum are equally good at searching and have access to the same materials - which is not the case. Books are part of the "experience". That being said. Dictionaries do lag behind real-world usage and cannot always convey the various connotations of word usage (which may even vary from person-to-person, region-to-region).


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## UrduMedium

^ Point well taken.


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## Faylasoof

Dictionaries may lag behind current speech but since the advent of the internet we are blessed with several good quality language websites and blogs which keep up and also point out mistakes. *Here* is one for Urdu from the National Language Authority (مقتدرہ قومی زبان _muqtadarah qaumii zabaan_), Pakistan: 

اردو میں ’’برا منانا‘‘ کے بجائے ’’برا ماننا‘‘ بولنا چاہیے
_urduu meN buraa manaanaa ke bajaa’e buraa mannaa bolnaa chaahiye _

“In Urdu one should say _buraa mannaa_ instead of _buraa manaanaa_.” 

(_Dated August 2011_.)

_buraa manaanaa_ for _buraa mannaa_ started to come into use in the 1970s in Pakistan as indicated in the link in post # 92, above.

One of the functions of NLA is Urdu language standardization by publishing high quality Urdu prose and poetry, highlighting important linguistic matters, coming up with new vocabulary and pointing out common but wrong usages.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Dictionaries may lag behind current speech but since the advent of the internet we are blessed with several good quality language websites and blogs which keep up and also point out mistakes. *Here* is one for Urdu from the National Language Authority (مقتدرہ قومی زبان _muqtadarah qaumii zabaan_), Pakistan:
> 
> اردو میں ’’برا منانا‘‘ کے بجائے ’’برا ماننا‘‘ بولنا چاہیے
> _urduu meN buraa manaanaa ke bajaa’e buraa mannaa bolnaa chaahiye _
> 
> “In Urdu one should say _buraa mannaa_ instead of _buraa manaanaa_.”
> 
> (_Dated August 2011_.)
> 
> _buraa manaanaa_ for _buraa mannaa_ started to come into use in the 1970s in Pakistan as indicated in the link in post # 92, above.
> 
> One of the functions of NLA is Urdu language standardization by publishing high quality Urdu prose and poetry, highlighting important linguistic matters, coming up with new vocabulary and pointing out common but wrong usages.


Faylasoof SaaHib. I would n't really wish to argue against this point because most probably this usage is much more prevalent in Pakistan than in India but just to give a little sense of balance , I did provide three examples of this wrong usage by Indian speakers in post 81.

1) UVR SaaHib, a Telagu speakers who grew up in Delhi.

2) Raj Kumar "Qais" SaaHib, born in pre-partition Lahore and moved to India as a young man, spending a lot of his time in Delhi (I believe) before migrating to USA.

3) Yogesh Sethi SaaHib: Also from India but I am not aware of his linguistic background.

So, it is not unknown in India. That is my only point.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib. I would n't really wish to argue against this point because most probably this usage is much more prevalent in Pakistan than in India but just to give a little sense of balance , I did provide three examples of this wrong usage by Indian speakers in post 81.
> 
> 1) UVR SaaHib, a Telagu speakers who grew up in Delhi.
> 
> 2) Raj Kumar "Qais" SaaHib, born in pre-partition Lahore and moved to India as a young man, spending a lot of his time in Delhi (I believe) before migrating to USA.
> 
> 3) Yogesh Sethi SaaHib: Also from India but I am not aware of his linguistic background.
> 
> So, it is not unknown in India. That is my only point.


QP SaaHib, I very well understand what you are saying. I wasn't in the least bit suggesting that this expression (_buraa manaanaa_) is entirely absent in India and found only in Pakistan. You made that much clear. But I think we'd be right in thinking that it is much more frequent in the latter than the former country. I wanted to point out that although its use came to be noticed in the 1970s in Pakistan, it has now been about 40 years (depending when you start counting) but it still hasn't found acceptance amongst the _urduudaanaan_ there. Not only do I agree with these Urdu experts, I also respect them for reminding everybody what the correct usage is.


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## UrduMedium

^ Thank you, F and QP saahibaan, for the references above. I concede based on the evidence seen so far that _buraa manaanaa_ does not seem to be accepted in written language, in either of the two meanings we have discussed. However _I feel _it is part of the spoken language (perhaps Ghalat-ul-3aam as Faylasoof saahab indicated earlier), with a slight nuance that distinguishes it from _buraa maan_naa_.


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## marrish

I had a big ''get-together' with several friends of mine recently. I asked them their opinion on the subject, without presenting any of the achievements we got in this thread. One of them said that 'buraa manaanaa' was Punjabi, two persons stated that it is used in the spoken language but shouldn't be used in writing and the remaining several guests saw no difference whatsoever between ''buraa maannaa'' and ''buraa manaanaa''. Two of the last mentioned remaining guests got into a discussion because they were trying to differentiate the meaning or usage. After a long exchange of views, all of the present (10+) conceded that 'maiN ne buraa maanaa' was what the correct expression is, while ''maiN ne buraa manaayaa'' is _Ghalatu-l-3aam. maiN ne buraa nah maanaa. kis baat kaa? un logoN ke faisale kaa! maiN ne ''buraa manaayaa'' hotaa to vuh bhii buraa maan jaate._


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## marrish

As there has been no successful attempt to find a definition of "buraa manaanaa" in the dictionaries I think this find justifies reopening this thread. Although there is no separate entry for this, it occurs in a definition of another expression in Farhang-e-Asafiyyah by Sayyid AHmad Dihlavii, 1908.

I am quoting the whole entry:

.اُدھار کھانا ۔ ہ ۔ فِعلِ لازِم ۔ (۱) قرض کھانا ۔ قرض لینا ۔ (۲) دُشمن ہونا ۔ کِسی کی مَوت چاہنا ۔ بُرا منانا ۔ جانی دُشمن ہونا
چُون٘کہ رجواڑوں میں جب کوئی راجہ مرتا ہے تو راج کے بڑے بامن کو اُس کی پوشاک اور استعمال کا اَسباب مِل جاتا ہے اِس سبب سے) 
وہ لوگ اِس وعدے پر اُدھار کھایا کرتے ہیں کہ جب راجہ مر جائے گا تو ہم یہ قرضہ مع سُود ادا کریں گے۔ پس اِسی وجہ سے یہ
-اصطلاح ہو گئی کہ فلاں شخص فلاں شخص پر اُدھار کھائے بیٹھا ہے یعنی اُس کا بدخواہ اور جانی دُشمن ہے

​udhaar khaanaa - h - fi3l-e-laazim- 1. qarz khaanaa. qarz lenaa. 2. dushman honaa. kisii kii maut chaahnaa. *buraa manaanaa*. jaanii dushman honaa. (chuuNkih rajwaaRoN meN jab ko'ii raajah martaa hae to raaj ke baRe baaman ko us kii poshaak aur isti3maal kaa asbaab mil jaataa hae is sabab se wuh log is wa3de par udhaar khaayaa karte haiN kih jab raajah mar jaa'e gaa to ham yih qarzah ma3 suud adaa kareN ge. pas isii wajh se yih istilaaH ho ga'ii kih fulaaN shaxs fulaaN shaxs par udhaar khaa'e baiThaa hae ya3nii us kaa bad-xwaah aur jaanii dushman hae.

My reasoning: kisii kaa buraa hu'aa aur ham is kaa buraa manaate haiN ya3nii is ke Gham meN xushii manaate haiN.


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