# processed cheese



## little green bird

Hi everyone!
What do you think of processed cheese?  I mean is this name of the product common, is it widely used? I need to define a product which is a spreadable cheese, but not a cream cheese, like "Philadelphia". We call it "melted cheese" in Russian, it's more like "Hochland". My American adviser thinks that "processed cheese" doesn't sound familiar to him. He suggests just "spreadable cheese", but since it is a cooking recipe I need to be more specific... So I need more opinions.


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## JustKate

I'd use either _processed cheese_ or I'd specify a particular product, e.g., "Velveeta or a similar product." Processed cheese is a well-known term; the problem is that it doesn't invariably refer to what you're talking about, which is (I think) a soft processed cheese that melts smoothly and quickly. _Spreadable_ cheese isn't exactly the same thing, at least not to me.


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## little green bird

JustKate, yes, I'm talking about a very soft cheese. Its consistence is similar to a dense mayonnaise. We do have pictures in our recipes, but I still need to call this cheese somehow...


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## PaulQ

*soft cheese* might work - it also covers some of the great cheeses, e.g. Brie, Camembert, etc. but it depends what the recipe calls for. If it is "processed cheese" that is required (don't let any Frenchmen see this ) then "*cheese spread*" could be used, see, http://www.dairylea.co.uk/dairylea/page?siteid=dairylea-prd&locale=uken1&PagecRef=644&pid=1072


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## JustKate

OK, how about "soft processed cheese"? If I didn't want to specify Velveeta, that's what I'd probably use. It would be readily understandable to an American (who would immediately say, "Oh, she means Velveeta" ;-) - I'm not sure about your audience, though.

PaulQ, I agree with the French that Velveeta isn't good cheese - in fact, it doesn't really qualify as cheese. It makes a nice base for a sauce, though, so long as you're going to add real cheese to it.


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## lucas-sp

To me, "processed cheese" normally means "American cheese," i.e. Kraft singles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Singles , http://madamefromageblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Kraft-Singles.jpg

Those are little slices. Spreadable cheese makes me think of "cheese spread." There are "processed cheese spreads" such as Velveeta or Cheez Whiz. But there are also other regional things, like Texmex "queso," Southern "pimiento cheese," and Eastern European "Liptauer." These things are _very, very different_ from "spreadable cheeses." I think you're going to have to find the brand you want.


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## little green bird

I'm not sure if it is suitable to specify the brand as soon as we're making an iPad/Android app. It might be considered as a hidden advertising. I think "processed cheese spread" would be the closest definition of what we are using.


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## Hau Ruck

My suggestion would be the same as your American adviser.  "Spreadable cheese" would suffice just fine, I think.  
I cannot think of a spreadable cheese that is _not _processed.  Cheese, by its usual nature, is not spreadable.  It is usually processed in some fashion in order to be "spreadable".  

Just go with spreadable cheese.


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## lucas-sp

Well, all cheese is processed. Something happened to make it stop being milk. And many cheeses are spreadable (brie, chèvre, camembert, etc. etc.). But camembert, for instance, although is is certainly spreadable and processed, is neither a "processed cheese" nor a "spreadable cheese" nor a "processed spreadable cheese."


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## Myridon

I agree with Filsmith that (if it is legally possible) "spreadable" is sufficient.  "Processed" sounds rather mechanically unnatural.  I think most American producers would avoid the word "processed" if it weren't required by the labeling laws.  On the package, Velveeta is labeled a "processed cheese food".  Not only is it processed, there's not quite enough actual cheese in it so it must be labeled as a "cheese food" rather than a "cheese."


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## Hau Ruck

lucas-sp said:


> Well, all cheese is processed. Something happened to make it stop being milk. And many cheeses are spreadable (brie, chèvre, camembert, etc. etc.). But camembert, for instance, although is is certainly spreadable and processed, is neither a "processed cheese" nor a "spreadable cheese" nor a "processed spreadable cheese."



Exactly.  So, as I was saying, adding "processed" is moot.  Just call it spreadable cheese.  See?


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## lucas-sp

But that's not true, because "processed cheese" means something specific. 

For this recipe, I would suggest *spreadable wedge cheese* as the thing most like Hochland that an American could buy. You can say in your recipe "4 oz spreadable wedge cheese, such as Laughing Cow," and it won't be thought of as advertising. In America, Laughing Cow will probably be the only manufacturer of this product. (You want this, right? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...dable_cheese_Original_Creamy_Swiss_flavor.JPG)

You do not want your readers purchasing Velveeta if they're supposed to be purchasing spreadable wedge cheese. The recipe will fail spectacularly. Or maybe not! Americans do like Velveeta, apparently.


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## JustKate

Hmm, I just don't know. You could very well be right, Lucas, but to me "cheese spread" or "spreadable cheese" is cheese that has been whipped or blended or whatever so that it's spreadable - but the term also implies that flavorings have been added, such as chives or jalapenos or bacon or something. So I - and maybe this is just me - wouldn't use that in a recipe unless it was specified, and even there, I'd expect the recipe to tell me what flavor of spreadable cheese I'm supposed to use.

The thing about Velveeta is that it has a really mild flavor - it really doesn't qualify as cheese, so all the flavor will come from whatever it is you add to it. You really can make a decent cheese sauce with Velveeta so long as you, you know, add cheese!

I think it would help if Little Green Bird could tell us what this spreadable cheese or processed cheese or whatever is being used for in the recipe. That would help me, at least, figure out the correct term to use for it.


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## lucas-sp

JustKate said:


> Hmm, I just don't know. You could very well be right, Lucas, but to me "cheese spread" or "spreadable cheese" is cheese that has been whipped or blended or whatever so that it's spreadable - but the term also implies that flavorings have been added, such as chives or jalapenos or bacon or something. So I - and maybe this is just me - wouldn't use that in a recipe unless it was specified, and even there, I'd expect the recipe to tell me what flavor of spreadable cheese I'm supposed to use.


Thanks, Kate. That's actually the point I was trying to make, and why I mentioned that hearing "spreadable cheese" made me think of variants like pimiento cheese, queso dip, or Liptauer. That's why I said:





> I think you're going to have to find the brand you want.


Otherwise there'll be so much confusion and the risk of readers accidentally substituting one interpretation of "spreadable cheese" for another would be great. Recipes commonly list a standard brand name when they use ingredients that may lead to confusion.

Obviously, you can use Velveeta to make cheese sauce because it has so many emulsifiers in it. You couldn't melt Camembert, for example, and assume that it would become a cheese sauce; instead, it would break. So not all "spreadable cheeses" will behave the same. We also don't know what role the cheese plays in the recipe; I had the sense that "melted cheese" was a literal translation of a metaphorical Russian name for this kind of cheese.


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## mplsray

Myridon said:


> I agree with Filsmith that (if it is legally possible) "spreadable" is sufficient.  "Processed" sounds rather mechanically unnatural.  I think most American producers would avoid the word "processed" if it weren't required by the labeling laws.  On the package, Velveeta is labeled a "processed cheese food".  Not only is it processed, there's not quite enough actual cheese in it so it must be labeled as a "cheese food" rather than a "cheese."



I would note that there are several different products which use the Velveeta brand and may contain different sorts of cheese product. At least one of those products ran afoul of regulations when it called itself a "Pasteurized Process Cheese Spread" but it contained an ingredient which was disallowed by the FDA for a product with that standard of identity. Velveeta loaf now labels itself "Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product," which, according to this Wikipedia article, is "a term for which the FDA does not maintain a standard of identity...."

Note the "process cheese spread" in the above paragraph. American regulations refer to "process cheese" rather than "processed cheese," although most people say "processed cheese." The terms were created at about the same time (early 20th century). As I understand it, "process cheese" was so called because it was created according to a particular process: compare "process photography."


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## lucas-sp

Argh! But we clearly aren't talking about Velveeta if we're talking about *Hochland spreadable cheese wedges*​ (see original post)!


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## mplsray

lucas-sp said:


> Argh! But we clearly aren't talking about Velveeta if we're talking about *Hochland spreadable cheese wedges*​ (see original post)!



My point was more about the different methods of identifying cheese products and how they must be identified correctly according to regulations when sold in the US. 

I found one Web page which showed a "Nutrition Facts" (a necessity for products labeled for sale in the US) for "Hochland Fitness Cheese," but since it did not actually show the package, I don't know if that name is what it is actually sold as in the US, nor what it has to be labeled here. This might be important when translating, as the reader will want to identify the product by a name he can use to find and by it. It also might be useful to find if there are close substitutes for it.

As I understand it, in some recipes it can make a difference whether one uses "cream cheese" or "light cream cheese"--and the original poster was speaking of something which wasn't even cream cheese--so identifying the appropriate product or substitute might be important to a translation of a recipe.


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## Hau Ruck

lucas-sp said:


> Well, all cheese is processed. Something happened to make it stop being milk.





lucas-sp said:


> But that's not true, because "processed cheese" means something specific.



You have to pick one or the other to take a stance on.  "Processed cheese" does not mean anything other than it has undergone a process; just as you said.  Even the FDA does not have a definition of "process" in regards to food.  Technically, peeling a potato is processing it.  Rinsing a strawberry is "processing" it. 

Process is redundant, moot and not necessary.


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## lucas-sp

All cheese goes through a process, yes, so all cheese is, literally speaking, processed.

But not all cheese is called "processed." "Processed cheese" means something specific and separate from the entirety of cheese.

That's the difference. I was trying to point out that equivocating on the meaning of "processed" doesn't help matters. I complete disagree with your sentence: 





> "Processed cheese" does not mean anything other than it has undergone a process; just as you said.


That's equivocation. "Processed cheese" does not and cannot refer to farmhouse cheddar, roquefort, La Tur, comté, Red Hawk, whatever. It refers to mass-produced cheese products like Kraft Singles.

At least, there is a distinction between the two meanings of "processed" here on the West coast. Perhaps this is not the case in the Midwest?


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## Myridon

lucas-sp said:


> Argh! But we clearly aren't talking about Velveeta if we're talking about *Hochland spreadable cheese wedges*​ (see original post)!


"Like Hochland" isn't "Hochland". In post #7, the original poster states that he can't tell us the actual brand.


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## lucas-sp

He doesn't say that he can't tell us the brand. Instead he says: 





little green bird said:


> *I'm not sure if it is suitable to specify the brand* as soon as we're making an iPad/Android app. It might be *considered as a hidden advertising*. I think "processed cheese spread" would be the closest definition of what we are using.


I think we pointed out that in certain cases you _have to _specify the brand in a recipe, and it's not considered hidden advertising, but just ensuring that the reader of the recipe will be able to make it correctly.

Although now I'm wondering whether we might be talking about something else, like crème fraiche or sour cream. 

We are entirely guessing, and I suspect we'll be moderated into oblivion in a few moments. Original poster, can you give an idea of what the recipe is, and possibly name a brand of the cheese being discussed, or link to a wikipedia page? We need to know what cheese you're talking about, since none of us knows what "melted cheese" means in Russian. It's a cultural thing.


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## little green bird

OK, I see that we really need pictures here. Here are some picture of what it looks like: http://bio-liwq.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/1696346.jpg , http://i.obozrevatel.ua/8/1203706/663441.jpg , http://kuharka.com/uploads/posts/2011-01/thumbs/1296226995_syr.jpg. I really can't name a specific brand because I simply don't know any American brand that produces products of that kind. You might know Viola or President?.. But it's definitely not wedges. As I already mentioned, this cheese is extremely soft, almost liquid, with consistence similar to a dense (thick?) mayonnaise, it is sold in plastic jars.


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## lucas-sp

You probably mean *fromage blanc*. Here are some links: http://www.cowgirlcreamery.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FRB , http://dairygoddess.wordpress.com/2...-is-fromage-blanc-never-heard-of-that-cheese/

However, fromage blanc is almost impossible to find in the US. You may need to find a substitute, or suggest a place where your readers could mail-order fromage blanc, or give a recipe.

At any rate, you cannot say "processed cheese" for this, because fromage blanc would be a rather gourmet, specialty item, and "processed" always means "mass-processed."


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## JustKate

Well, I found this page, which describes various Finnish cheeses: http://www.dlc.fi/~marianna/gourmet/i_finche.htm. Based on this, I'd describe Viola as a "creamy processed cheese." 

However...I'm telling you, most Americans would think you meant Velveeta, which has a slightly different texture in that it's firm enough to form into a block but melts really smoothly, plus I'd guess that the flavor of Velveeta is much milder (it just barely tastes like cheese). Or if they didn't think of Velveeta, they'd think you mean Cheez Whiz, which does come in a jar (as well as in ::shudder:: an aerosol can) and is much softer than Velveeta, but it's also...well, I don't want to get needlessly rude here about an established American product, but it's not something that I ever keep in my kitchen. I think if you google "Cheez Whiz" (and alas, that is how it's spelled) you'll get some idea what I mean.

So what I'd suggest is that you describe what the recipe calls for, e.g. "A creamy processed cheese such as Viola." Most wouldn't have heard of Viola, but that's what Google is for, right?


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## Myridon

little green bird said:


> http://kuharka.com/uploads/posts/2011-01/thumbs/1296226995_syr.jpg. As I already mentioned, this cheese is extremely soft, almost liquid, with consistence similar to a dense (thick?) mayonnaise, it is sold in plastic jars.


That second picture really looks like mayonnaise.  It's very shiny.  I would not have guessed from the picture that it was a dairy product at all.  Is there any possibility you could find out what's in it or how it's made?

I did find one article online that says Kraft is going to start producing "melted cheese" for the Russian market and the most popular flavor is "cream".
http://www.foodnavigator.com/Financial-Industry/Kraft-Foods-takes-on-Russian-cheese-sector


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## Hau Ruck

lucas-sp said:


> At least, there is a distinction between the two meanings of "processed" here on the West coast. Perhaps this is not the case in the Midwest?



Even the FDA doesn't define "Processed" nor "Processed Cheese".  The very agency that sets the American guidelines for what can and cannot be said in regards to a food.  If you can provide any evidence to back up what you are saying, I'm all eyes and ears.  Until that time, "processed cheese" has no literal meaning.  It's cheese which has undergone a process.  I understand that you want to apply a specific "thing" with the term; the problem is that there is no evidence to support such a claim.


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## lucas-sp

Filsmith said:


> Even the FDA doesn't define "Processed" nor "Processed Cheese".  The very agency that sets the American guidelines for what can and cannot be said in regards to a food.  If you can provide any evidence to back up what you are saying, I'm all eyes and ears.  Until that time, "processed cheese" has no literal meaning.  It's cheese which has undergone a process.  I understand that you want to apply a specific "thing" with the term; the problem is that there is no evidence to support such a claim.


Well, here's some anecdotal evidence: I just asked my housemate what "processed cheese" was, and his immediate answer was "Like Velveeta, or Kraft Singles. Scary." I know that probably wont satisfy you, so maybe this will: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processed_cheese That's the first google result under "processed cheese."

I also just want to point out that your claim is patently absurd: "Even the FDA doesn't define "Processed" nor "Processed Cheese". The very agency that sets the American guidelines for what can and cannot be said in regards to a food." Last night I ate a "galantine" of guinea hen at a restaurant. Is there a FDA guideline for "galantine"? No. So clearly the restaurant, and I, were wrong to refer to the dish as a "galantine." I also don't think that there are FDA guidelines for "delicious," "salty," or "Chicago-style," but all of these are words that can refer to specific kinds of food.


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## Hau Ruck

No, sorry, your housemate doesn't solidify anything for me. Thanks for asking him though. 
Oddly enough your wiki link doesn't define what is and what is not "processed cheese" either.

The claim is absurd? I ask for proof that such a thing "exists" yet I'm absurd?
Show me...where...processed cheese is defined as what you are saying.   You've not done that.
Stating that the FDA can't even define "processed cheese" is far from absurd.  
You would just like to assign some mythical type of cheese to "processed cheese".  It's like saying "the green pickle".  I don't need green; it's a pickle.  It's green; we know that.  If processed food were a real "type" of food, it'd be defined and the FDA would most certainly have recognition of it.
Absurd is that you've already said all cheese is processed, yet, now it's not?  Somehow all cheese is processed yet it only applies to some? That's absurd.


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## Myridon

lucas-sp said:


> Last night I ate a "galantine" of guinea hen at a restaurant. Is there a FDA guideline for "galantine"?


Food served in a restaurant is an entirely different matter.  It probably wasn't even a guinea hen.  There is an agency (perhaps it's not the FDA) that determines whether a product can be labeled in stores as "ice cream", "ice milk", or "frozen non-dairy product" based on its content.  In recent years, there was quite a to-do over the agency allowing prunes to be called "dried plums" in some products (resulting in "prune juice" sometimes being called "dried plum juice").  As I said in my previous post, "processed" (or "process") sounds like something awful and I can't believe that the manufacturer would use that word on the package voluntarily.


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## Hau Ruck

Myridon said:


> Food served in a restaurant is an entirely different matter.  It probably wasn't even a guinea hen.  There is an agency (perhaps it's not the FDA) that determines whether a product can be labeled in stores as "ice cream", "ice milk", or "frozen non-dairy product" based on its content.  In recent years, there was quite a to-do over the agency allowing prunes to be called "dried plums" in some products (resulting in the existence of a liquid called "dried prune juice").  As I said in my previous post, "processed" (or "process") sounds like something awful and I can't believe that the manufacturer would use that word on the package voluntarily.



I'd have to agree with you whole-heartedly here Myridon. The simple fact is that processed should not be used here.  There is no valid reason for it.


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## JustKate

Jeez, I realize I'm new around here, but I can't think of any reason why "processed" _shouldn't_ be used. Did you look at the images Little Green Bird provided? Is there any way that cheese hasn't been processed? It's cheese that's had stuff added to it and has been...well, processed - treated - cooked - whatever - so that it stays creamy, soft and almost liquid. What else can do that except "processing"? I found an image for the Viola cheese that LGB mentioned, and right there on the label it says "Premium quality pasteurized process cheese spread." I'm sorry if it sounds yucky to all of you, but that's what it is.

And anyway, in publishing a recipe, the writer isn't responsible for making the manufacturers of the products used look good; he or she needs to make the recipe as easy as possible for the prospective cook to understand and duplicate, and if a processed cheese product is what it takes, that's what the recipe needs to make clear. The fact is if someone doesn't want to use a product that has been processed, he probably shouldn't try to follow this recipe.


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## lucas-sp

Myridon said:


> As I said in my previous post, "processed" (or "process") sounds like something awful and I can't believe that the manufacturer would use that word on the package voluntarily.


Nobody's saying that manufacturers would market anything as "processed cheese." I'm saying that when you say "processed cheese" to me, I know exactly what you're talking about; that is, that there is such a term as "processed cheese" in the dialect that I share with other speakers. My housemate did call processed cheese "scary." Manufacturers have to put on the package "process cheese product" or something like that; what they mean is "emulsified cheese." The category of "emulsified cheese," meaning cheese that has been stabilized for extended shelf-life and meltability, is "processed cheese."

Filsmith, do you call anything "processed food"? The WR thing is happening where you're encountering a vocabulary word the existence of which you did not suspect, and you're reacting with paranoia instead of interest. This usage does in fact exist.

I am not claiming that it is logical. Indeed, I agreed that cheese is all "processed." Pretty much all food is "processed"; definitely all food once it comes in contact with the human mouth is "processed" by chewing and saliva. But there is still such a thing as "processed food."

This becomes even more odd once you look at how *the FDA does in fact have regulations on "process cheese."* (Look at the wikipedia article.) "Processed cheese" is what most people call "process cheese" in everyday language.

I'm sorry you've never heard of this, but I'm not the only one. I certainly didn't just whip up a wikipedia page to convince you that other people use the term "processed cheese." You can (rightly) call it oxymoronic or illogical, but you shouldn't deny its existence.

What I meant was that the FDA doesn't catalogue all the food words. That's why there's a huge flap about people labeling and marketing domestic sparkling wine as "Champagne."


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## Hau Ruck

> This becomes even more odd once you look at how *the FDA does in fact have regulations on "process cheese."* (Look at the wikipedia article.) "Processed cheese" is what most people call "process cheese" in everyday language.



The only reference to the FDA in your wiki article:


> The US Food & Drug Administration does not maintain a standard of identity for "*Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product*".... Neither does the FDA maintain a standard of  identity for "*Pasteurized Process Cheese Product*"



That's it. That's all. It _literally _states my point for me. Simply saying there is some imaginary regulation on process cheese is getting ridiculous.  Ridiculous. Find me the regulation. I'm waiting patiently. Even your wiki does not provide what you just claimed it did. Read it and find the excerpt from even the wiki article.
Please read that same wiki article and _paste_ where it says what you are claiming. It doesn't.  It says that American cheese is classified and that the FDA does not maintain a standard of identity for "Pasteurized Process Cheese Product".



> The WR thing is happening where you're encountering a vocabulary word  the existence of which you did not suspect, and you're reacting with  paranoia instead of interest. This usage does in fact exist.


Both cocky and bold I'd say. You've failed to supply facts (a _very_ common WR thing) and disagree with me. I've asked you to supply fact, which you have failed to do. But thanks for defining me in a broad sentence of disagreement.


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## Pertinax

I understand the term "processed cheese" to be a so-called cheese that actually has an unprocessed cheese as a starting point.  It consists of cheese that is processed, not merely milk that is processed.  That clearly distinguishes it from unprocessed cheese.

The wiki article understands it in the same way: _Processed cheese .. is a food product *made from normal cheese *and sometimes other unfermented dairy ingredients, plus emulsifiers, extra salt, food colorings, or whey._


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## lucas-sp

You're right. Sorry, I was confused from Myridon's post #10.

Again, this may be the first time you've heard the term "processed cheese," but that isn't itself evidence that it doesn't exist and have a precise referent. Please be open-minded here.

Do you use the term "processed food"?

Here's a google ngram: http://books.google.com/ngrams/grap...start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3

Here's a definition of "processed cheese":





> 1. Processed cheese is also known as “process cheese”, “prepared cheese”, and “cheese food”.
> 2. It is a food product made from regular cheese, and almost always with the addition of whey, emulsifiers, milk, salts, preservatives, and food coloring. (http://blog.fooducate.com/2009/04/20/what-is-processed-cheese-cheese-miniseries-part-23/)



And here's a big report that was apparently written by someone at the EPA: http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch09/final/c9s06-1.pdf

There is a distinction between "processed cheese" and "natural cheese." I think you and I both agree that, philosophically speaking, all cheeses are both natural (in that they're made from milk, whey, salt, time, etc., all of which occur in nature) and processed (in that they undergo a process, namely cheese-making, that involves washing, mixing, aging, heating, etc.). But that's a _different meaning of processed and natural_ than is being discussed here.


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## Hau Ruck

lucas-sp said:


> You're right. Sorry, I was confused from Myridon's post #10.
> 
> Again, this may be the first time you've heard the term "processed cheese," but that isn't itself evidence that it doesn't exist and have a precise referent. Please be open-minded here.
> 
> Do you use the term "processed food"?
> 
> Here's a google ngram: http://books.google.com/ngrams/grap...start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3
> 
> Here's a definition of "processed cheese":
> 
> And here's a big report that was apparently written by someone at the EPA: http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch09/final/c9s06-1.pdf
> 
> There is a distinction between "processed cheese" and "natural cheese." I think you and I both agree that, philosophically speaking, all cheeses are both natural (in that they're made from milk, whey, salt, time, etc., all of which occur in nature) and processed (in that they undergo a process, namely cheese-making, that involves washing, mixing, aging, heating, etc.). But that's a _different meaning of processed and natural_ than is being discussed here.



No, it's not the first time I've heard processed cheese. I'm also familiar with "processed food". I'm also familiar with the fact that no accountable agency (the EPA deals with the environment - not food) nor dictionary defines precisely what _either_ of them is. I know it seems like splitting hairs, but in fact, it is just that.  Sure, I understand what you and most people _mean_ by processed cheese. I'd not touch it. I prefer unpasteurized mozzarella from Trader Joe's.  It's processed.  It's had salt and emulsifiers added to it in order to achieve a taste.  Now, would most people that work at Trader Joe's agree that it's processed? No. They'd swear up and down that because it's "natural" and rBST free, that there is _no way_ it could be "processed".  It is, in fact, processed.  You won't find it on the label, because, as Myridon said, it's not "attractive" to do so. 

Yes, you'll find, say, that 2% of world cheese has nothing added, etc.  Feel free to never call them processed.  

In general, for the most part, cheese is processed by its very nature.  

We disagree and that's fine.  But I stand firm in my opinion to the OP that "processed" should not be used, unless, as Myridon stated, he/she wishes to repulse his/her audience/buyer.  If that is the goal, I'd say do it.
I understand that there is a connotation given to "processed cheese"; connotations don't always reflect truth.


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## lucas-sp

OK, so you're being a little disingenuous. You know full well that "processed cheese" refers to something, and you agree with me that it refers to something repellent. You also agree with me that it's not necessarily a logical word.

I think that in the case of the original poster's question, we still haven't figured out what kind of cheese is intended. It seems like we're narrowing it down to some kind of quark or fromage blanc. And in those cases, there will probably be both "processed" and "natural" versions available for purchase (at least in Europe; I don't know if processed fromage blanc is available in the US). But that choice is up to the consumer.

We can definitely agree that "processed cheese" is not at all the word the OP is looking for.


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## Hau Ruck

> OK, so you're being a little disingenuous. You know full well that  "processed cheese" refers to something, and you agree with me that it  refers to something repellent. You also agree with me that it's not  necessarily a logical word.



There are many, many examples of how mass interpretation of a  word/phrase is not "correct". The masses are often ignorant of a word's  definition/meaning.
99% of the U.S. population will tell you that "Sociopath" somehow refers to a psychopathic killer; in fact, it's not _always _the case.   I agree that most people hear "processed cheese" and react as your housemate did.  It doesn't mean that the connotation accurately reflects the truth.  It's not disingenuous; I just refuse to believe that mass connotation somehow substantiates a false definition.



lucas-sp said:


> We can definitely agree that "processed cheese" is not at all the word the OP is looking for.


Yes, I agree, we can.


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## lucas-sp

I think that there are *two* or more meanings of "processed." They're both in the public sphere as well - I don't think it takes a doctoral degree to realize that all cheese is in some way "processed," because nobody expects to find cheese just lying around on the ground in the forest or on the farm. I think that we can acknowledge that there are multiple meanings and then we just have to *avoid equivocation*, as I said earlier. ("Equivocation" means equating or conflating two different definitions or uses of a word.)


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## JustKate

I don't mean to be argumentative, but although I'm glad you two have agreed that "processed" isn't the right word, I haven't.  The OP said that what she's looking for is along the lines of Viola, which according to its package is a "Premium quality pasteurized process cheese spread." That's what's right there on the label. If you can come up with a way to describe that without using the term "process" or "processed" that will still give prospective cooks enough information so that they can buy the right sort of product to duplicate the recipe, great. I can't, but maybe you can. But since it is "premium quality pasteurized process cheese spread," I don't see what's wrong with calling it a "creamy processed cheese." What's wrong with calling something exactly what it is?


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## Myridon

JustKate said:


> What's wrong with calling something exactly what it is?


The real problem is that we don't know exactly what it is. The pictures don't look to me like any sort of cheese spread, cream cheese, creme fraiche, sour cream, yogurt, ... The plain one really looks like mayonnaise - oily and sort of gelatinous.  It seems the exact product is only produced in or for Russia (see the article I linked earlier).
We also don't know how it's used in the recipe.  If it's just spread on the top at the end, it may not matter much. Does the recipe depend on its liquid content, fat content, acidity, sweetness, melting point, ...?


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## mplsray

From www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=133.10



> Definitions and standards of identity have recently been promulgated under the authority of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act for a number of foods made in part from cheese, including pasteurized process cheese; pasteurized process cheese with fruits, vegetables, or meats; pasteurized blended cheese; pasteurized process cheese food; pasteurized process cheese spread, and related foods.



This document was last revised April 1, 2011. You'd have to go elsewhere, I guess, to specify whether "pasteurized process cheese" had been classified according to a "standard of identity" or only a "definition."


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## Hau Ruck

mplsray, each and every one of those cheeses is pasteurized.  U.S. governmental agencies are quite strict on pasteurization.  Sorry, but you can't effectively say that those are in regards to _just_ process in general.  They are speaking of cheeses that have undergone pasteurization - a much different sort of "process" that is very clearly defined.


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## JustKate

Myridon said:


> The real problem is that we don't know exactly what it is. The pictures don't look to me like any sort of cheese spread, cream cheese, creme fraiche, sour cream, yogurt, ... The plain one really looks like mayonnaise - oily and sort of gelatinous. It seems the exact product is only produced in or for Russia (see the article I linked earlier).
> We also don't know how it's used in the recipe. If it's just spread on the top at the end, it may not matter much. Does the recipe depend on its liquid content, fat content, acidity, sweetness, melting point, ...?



I think it doesn't look like those things because it isn't one of those things. (A link I found said the Viola product, which LGB mentioned, is sold in Russia and Finland.) But it's clearly - sorry - processed. How else could it become like that? I think if you avoid using the word "processed" because of possible negative connotations, you're going to confuse people more than they are likely to be already. And you might also be assuming a more negative connotation for "processed" than is really necessary. I mean, millions of people buy Cheez Whiz - and McDonald's - and you can't get more processed than that, right?

But you're absolutely right that how it's going to be used is important. If it's the base for a sauce of some kind, or for a cheesecake, then it has to be something similar to Viola or its creamy-processed-cheese brethren. But maybe that's not what it's for. If it's important, I think LGB's best option is still something along the lines of "a creamy cheese product such as Viola cheese" or "a creamy processed cheese product such as Viola cheese." Sure, people will have to look it up, but hey, that's what Google's for, right?


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## mplsray

Filsmith said:


> mplsray, each and every one of those cheeses is pasteurized.  U.S. governmental agencies are quite strict on pasteurization.  Sorry, but you can't effectively say that those are in regards to _just_ process in general.  They are speaking of cheeses that have undergone pasteurization - a much different sort of "process" that is very clearly defined.



I disagree with your assessment. It is not simply pasteurization which defines these products. If that were the case than the makers of Velveeta would not have had to quite calling their product a "Pasteurized Process Cheese Spread." They had to change because their product had a disallowed ingredient.

The regulations for "pasteurized process cheese" can be read here. They begin:



> Pasteurized process cheese is the food prepared by comminuting and mixing, with the aid of heat, one or more cheeses of the same or two or more varieties, except cream cheese, neufchatel cheese, cottage cheese, dry curd, cook cheese, hard grating cheese, semisoft part-skim cheese, part-skim spiced cheese, and skim milk cheese for manufacturing with an emulsifying agent prescribed by paragraph (c) of this section into a homogeneous plastic mass. One or more of the optional ingredients designated in paragraph (d) of this section may be used.



It goes on in a lot more detail from there.


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## little green bird

I'm in my office at last! Now I can post the pictures from _our_ recipe. But I assume, they won't help anyway, I've already got the point: the product we are using is either very rare in USA and Europe, or very unpopular and of poor quality. I suppose we'll have to replace this ingredient with something else. As soon as it is just a sushi recipe, it won't be a problem. I personally was against filling the roll with this stuff, but our chef had different opinion  Thank you all for the discussion, it was very helpful.


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## JustKate

Cheese - even "premium quality pasteurized process cheese spread" - in sushi? Gracious. Yes, I think your idea of coming up with with something else is a good one, LGB. I don't think we have anything readily available that's an equivalent, and I'd say the others participating in this unexpectedly lively thread would agree! And if all you're really using it for is as a filler or something gooey to help hold the other ingredients together, it's probably a bit much to expect people to go to a lot of trouble (such as buying it online or finding an international food shop that carries it) to acquire it.


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## Hau Ruck

mplsray said:


> I disagree with your assessment. It is not simply pasteurization which defines these products. If that were the case than the makers of Velveeta would not have had to quite calling their product a "Pasteurized Process Cheese Spread." They had to change because their product had a disallowed ingredient.
> 
> The regulations for "pasteurized process cheese" can be read here. They begin:
> 
> 
> 
> It goes on in a lot more detail from there.



I'm not saying that pasteurization "defines" these products; we are talking about "processed cheese", not "XXXX processed cheese".
My point is that every cheese listed is pasteurized.  That is a _variable_.  You can't make an assessment of the general term "process" to something that is not so simple. Those regulations are in regards to _pasteurized_ processed cheese.  The simple fact that they are pasteurized can cause certain regulations; that causes them to be invalid in this discussion of simple "processed".  The variable of "pasteurization" in each of those cheeses throws that out the window.  If it were defined without the variable of the cheese being pasteurized, then you'd be on to something.


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## pob14

It may be a little difficult to parse, but take a look at the definition of "pasteurized cheese spread" in Part 133 of Title 21 of the CFR:





> Subpart B--Requirements for Specific Standardized Cheese and Related Products
> 
> 
> 
> Sec. 133.175 Pasteurized cheese spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pasteurized cheese spread is the food which conforms to the definition and standard of identity, and is subject to the requirements for label statement of ingredients, prescribed for pasteurized process cheese spread by 133.179, *except that no emulsifying agent* as prescribed by 133.179(e) is used.


Note that it distinguishes "pasteurized _process_ cheese spread" from "pasteurized cheese spread" _only_ by the presence or absence of the emulsifying agent. All of the "process" definitions in that Subpart include the emulsifier in the definition. I take that to mean that the emulsifier is what makes it "process" to the FDA.


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## Hau Ruck

pob14 said:


> It may be a little difficult to parse, but take a look at the definition of "pasteurized cheese spread" in Part 133 of Title 21 of the CFR:Note that it distinguishes "pasteurized _process_ cheese spread" from "pasteurized cheese spread" _only_ by the presence or absence of the emulsifying agent. All of the "process" definitions in that Subpart include the emulsifier in the definition. I take that to mean that the emulsifier is what makes it "process" to the FDA.



This is straying way off from the point.  It's not about distinguishing between cheese A and cheese B.  It's about a clear definition of "processed cheese".  Not a definition of "XXXX processed cheese".  A clear definition of _just_ processed cheese - period. That has not been supplied yet.  Not a _distinction _between two cheeses, _a definition_ of "processed cheese".

You just supplied something that gives _distinction _of one type of cheese from another. 
I can supply documents of how homogenized processed cheese is _distinguished_ from processed cheese.  That does not _define_ what constitutes processed cheese.

See?


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## pob14

Filsmith said:


> I can supply documents of how homogenized processed cheese is _distinguished_ from processed cheese. That does not _define_ what constitutes processed cheese.
> 
> See?


Right, that would define what constitutes _homogenized _cheese.


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## Hau Ruck

pob14 said:


> Right, that would define what constitutes _homogenized _cheese.



Precisely.  So previously provided definitions/regulations about _pasteurized_ processed cheese cannot be applied to simple "processed cheese".
If I were to supply definitions/regulations pertaining to homogenized processed cheese, it would be no substitution for definitions/regulations for simply "processed cheese".  

What I was getting at with your example is that the document speaks of the differences between two types of cheese.  It doesn't clarify what constitutes "processed cheese" or regulations for that simple term.

The reason that people are finding regulations for _pasteurized_ processed cheese is that it's a very specific thing. It is a very regulated thing. It is a very defined thing by governing agency(ies).  The milk has to be heated a certain way, in certain conditions, etc.   They have to regulate that so that people aren't given some sort of tainted milk.  The regulations exist because of the _pasteurization_, not the "processed" part.

So, I am saying, that we can't gather regulation or definition from something with a variable of pasteurization.  

I am waiting for a definition/regulation of _just_ "processed cheese".  None can be provided because it simply does not exist in that basic, generic term.


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## pob14

Well, it's clear to me that the FDA uses "**** process cheese" to mean "**** cheese with an emulsifying agent," so I don't know why that can't be extended to say "process cheese" means "cheese with an emulsifying agent."

Regardless of that: in looking at the pictures posted by little green bird (who has stuck with this thread much longer than I would have if the question had been mine) I would call it "*cheese spread*."


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## Myridon

JustKate said:


> If it's the base for a sauce of some kind, or for a cheesecake, then it has to be something similar to Viola or its creamy-processed-cheese brethren.


My post that you quoted had nothing to do with "processed."  I was attempting to actually help the original poster rather than continue this silly argument.  My earlier posts were about labeling not any actual processes or processing.  Since you have brought it up however, the labeling of cream cheese (the base for a cheesecake) does not include the words "process" or "processed" because cream cheese is an actual soft, fresh cheese. It's really like that just from being made into cheese - no additional processing required.  If I want a good cheese sauce, I usually make a white sauce and add real cheese rather than take the suggested shortcut (though I do sometimes).  Fondues and queso dips can be made with real cheeses as well as long as you pick the right ones.
(If you haven't come across a sushi roll with cream cheese in it America, then you must only have sushi at the most authentic places. )


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## lucas-sp

little green bird said:


> I'm in my office at last! Now I can post the pictures from _our_ recipe. But I assume, they won't help anyway, I've already got the point: the product we are using is either very rare in USA and Europe, or very unpopular and of poor quality. I suppose we'll have to replace this ingredient with something else. As soon as it is just a sushi recipe, it won't be a problem. I personally was against filling the roll with this stuff, but our chef had different opinion  Thank you all for the discussion, it was very helpful.
> View attachment 9966
> View attachment 9967


A few options come to mind, as goes US cultural substitutes for this ingredient:

 - *crème fraiche*: classy, will taste mildly tangy and creamy, has a "gourmet" cachet. People also know what this is, even if it may mean going to a higher-end grocery store to find it.

 - *Kewpie mayonnaise*: this is the most popular Japanese mayonnaise brand and looks a lot like what you want. It's not a "high-class" ingredient but it's used and loved by chefs like David Chang (Momofuku etc.) who make high-class versions of trashy Asian dishes. But it will be hard for some people to find; it only exists in Asian markets. It's made with only egg yolks, so it's richer than Western mayonnaise, but has apple cider vinegar, so it's smooth, thinner, and sweeter. You might actually expect to find this around sushi in Japan or Japanese restaurants.

 - *sour cream *(or, in a pinch, *cream cheese*): very American substitutes. Available anywhere; spreadable, tangy, and rich. If you're going for a "mass-market" readership, then these two could be fine. In the US, these are both already used in sushi recipes, as Myridon points out; this can be the result of either American assimilation of Asian cuisine or Asian assimilation of American cuisine.


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## Hau Ruck

It seems you will find no decent answer for the general "type" of cheese that is needed.  Since it is such a specific brand/type, you may just wish to put the exact name that you are familiar with.

Many recipes call for a specific brand/type of ingredient. If you feel that alternatives would not do the recipe justice, simply state that.


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