# Is it possible to reach a native language level?



## herrkeinname

What can we recognise a native speaker by? Is there something typical only for native speakers? What do you think?


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## maxiogee

herrkeinname said:
			
		

> What can we recognise a native speaker by? Is there something typical only for native speakers? What do you think?



A native speaker of what?


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## vince

It depends on your definition of "native speaker"

If a person from Turkey immigrated to Germany 20 years ago and (this is important!) integrated into society, she or he would speak grammatically correct German, even if traces of accent remained. Some might consider this to be native, or just "extremely fluent". If you tried various tests to see whether they were a native speaker, for example by asking them about usages of slang expressions or linguistic constructions that foreigners often get wrong, he or she will most likely pass them. The only thing that distinguishes these people from "true natives" who grew up speaking 
German is the accent.

I think accent is generally a good identifier, most language-learners can't duplicate an accent to the level of a native speaker.

That's why I am not a native speaker of any language: I was born in Canada, I speak English that is as grammatically correct as any native would speak it, I use contemporary slang, but I speak it with a Cantonese accent. This is because my parents spoke to me exclusively in Cantonese when I was a child and as a child I was relatively quiet so I never lost the accent during the crucial stage of langauge development. But I am only fluent in Cantonese in the sense that a four-year-old raised in Hong Kong would be fluent in Cantonese, i.e. I can only produce and understand basic sentences, so I cannot say that Cantonese is my native language even though it was the FIRST language I started to learn. In fact, I can speak, read, and write far more complex and detailed sentences in Spanish than in Cantonese, but I am nowhere near fluent in Spanish since I cannot understand anything spoken to me in that language.


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## Residente Calle 13

herrkeinname said:
			
		

> What can we recognise a native speaker by? Is there something typical only for native speakers? What do you think?



I don't know if I'm a native speaker of anything. Can you define what native speaker means?


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## KateNicole

I'm assuming he/she means a person who speaks X language as the first language they learned, even if it was learned simultaneously with another.


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## KateNicole

And I don't think you recognize the native speaker.  It's the non-native speakers that stand out because they make unnatural sounding errors.  Native speakers make mistakes in their native language, but they do not usually sound unnatural, even if they are blatantly obvious.  
I ain't finished=very wrong, but typical of certain native English speakers.
I doesn't finished=wrong, but not typical of native English speakers.


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## vince

KateNicole said:
			
		

> I'm assuming he/she means a person who speaks X language as the first language they learned, even if it was learned simultaneously with another.


Then that would make me a native speaker of Cantonese and not of English.

Translate your previous sentence into Cantonese and say it back to me and I will have no clue what you just said. Say it in Spanish and I will understand if you say it slow enough. I also speak Cantonese with a slight English accent.

My point is, it's difficult to define what a native speaker is, it all depends on whether you are looking for the person to speak with perfect grammar, perfect usage (slang, contemporary expressions, choice of words), or perfect accent, or all of the above.

You can study Latin and speak with perfect grammar but I doubt anyone is fluent in Latin, so you have imperfect usage and possibly incorrect accent (who knows what Latin spoken in Rome truly sounded like?).
Uneducated locals grew up with the language, speak with perfect accent (in the sense of local accent) and perfect usage, but not necessarily correct grammar.
A linguist might learn to perfectly duplicate an accent but not be able to fluently speak the language.
Immigrants who have integrated into society and are well educated can speak with perfect grammar, perfect usage, but imperfect accent.


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## angel101

This isn't so common anymore, but years ago a lot of people in London did use 'cockney rhyming slang'. There are a lot of foreigners who can speak English very well (my Spanish teacher included) who know the popular expressions such as 'apple and pears' = 'stairs'  'a dig in the grave' = 'a shave' because they have learnt them. However, when people use them naturally, (this could apply to a foreign speaker who has lived in the country for a long time and has a high level of English) I feel that is what distinguishes them as a 'native' speaker. 

I love it when foreign people use idiomatic expressions!


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## KateNicole

Grammar has nothing to do with being a native speaker.  Native speaker doesn't mean "perfect" speaker or very educated speaker.  It just means that you have spoken the language since your very early childhood.
If you live in rural Mexico and only make it to the third grade, and do not know any other language, your native language is still Spanish, no matter how horrible your spelling or grammar may be.


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## KateNicole

vince said:
			
		

> .
> 
> A linguist might learn to perfectly duplicate an accent but not be able to fluently speak the language.
> Immigrants who have integrated into society and are well educated can speak with perfect grammar, perfect usage, but imperfect accent.


I think we can all agree that the above are _not _examples of "native speaker"  
_Fluency_ is subjective, _native speaker_ is not.


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## vince

Then what would you say I am? Unlike your rural Mexico example, I am not fluent in Cantonese beyond basic sentences on the level of "I want to eat some bread", I speak it with an English accent, yet it was the first language I learned, plus my understanding of Spanish is better than that of Cantonese. I would survive longer in Madrid than in Hong Kong.

I don't think your definition of native speaker is entirely free of subjectivity.


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## KateNicole

Hi Vince,
Sorry if I didn't clarify enough. Your native language would be the first language in which you learn to verbally express yourself _thoroughly_. If you can only say things like "I want bread" in Cantonese and are not capable or fluid conversation, that is obviously not your native language. I don't know you, so I have no idea what your native language would be, but I have a very hard time believing you didn't grow up speaking one language (or perhaps two if you are the child of immigrants or lived in a bilingual zone) more than any other, whether at home or at school. What language do you _think_ in? What language could you have the most carefree conversation in?


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## vince

I think in English, I am as fluent in English as any native speaker, there is no other language where I can talk without worrying about making grammatical mistakes and struggling for the right word. I don't think I've ever had a complete conversation in Cantonese, on the level of anything beyond arguing with my mom to let me not wear my coat. ("I don't want to wear a coat!" "I don't want you to get a cold" "But I'm fine!"). But even that comes out as an English-Cantonese pidgin. But I speak English with a Cantonese accent. The only argument for me having Cantonese as my native language is that it was the first language I was exposed to and started learning. Can I call myself a native speaker of English?

If so, this would mean throwing the requirement of "native accent" out the door when considering whether someone is a native speaker.


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## mariposita

Vince--Given how well you write and express yourself in English, I would say that you are entirely fluent and should feel free to claim it as your native language, if you care to. I do not think that speaking with a slight accent means that you are not a native speaker.


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## Residente Calle 13

Hi Kate,

I know you weren't talking to me but for me some of these my answer would be Spanish and for others English. I don't remember what I spoke when I was three but it must of been Spanish because my mother doesn't speak any other language. But I can't say I would prefer to write this paragraph in Spanish or that I would prefer to say it in Spanish. Some things I like to say in Spanish and others in English.



			
				KateNicole said:
			
		

> Your native language would be the first language in which you learn to verbally express yourself _thoroughly_. *For me that would be Spanish.* If you can only say things like "I want bread" in Cantonese and are not capable or fluid conversation, that is obviously not your native language. I don't know you, so I have no idea what your native language would be, but I have a very hard time believing you didn't grow up speaking one language (or perhaps two if you are the child of immigrants or lived in a bilingual zone) more than any other, whether at home or at school  *I don't know which I spoke more  and I don't remember learning English but I am sure that by the time I was four I could speak English because I remember my brother teaching me how to write "me". I never needed bilingual education and got on quite well in kindergarten.* What language do you _think_ in? *Hmmm. I don't think I think in a language at all. More like pictures, actually. Many diagrams.* What language could you have the most carefree conversation in? *It depends on the conversation and the time in my life. I used to be able to converse about literature in French quite well (French Lit was my major) and I'm certainly better at speaking about computers in Spanish now than three years ago. But some things I "like" to say in Spanish (or what passes for Spanish around here). Some things you just can't translate. *


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## mariposita

I crossed posts--but I would say throw that requirement out the door. My father speaks English with a somewhat idiosyncratic accent and rhythm, because he grew up in an immigrant household and neighborhood. English is his native language--no doubt about it.


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## KateNicole

I don't consider accent a component of native speaker.  For example, I have friends who were born and raised in India, and have an Indian accent when they speak English--but English is their _only_ language.  They do not know any dialect native to India.  They are native English speakers.  How old were you when you started to speak English?  If you are not fluent in Cantonese (because you were very young when you stopped learning and speaking it) and you are fluent in English because that is the language you were most exposed to during your childhood, I would say you qualify as a native English speaker.


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## KateNicole

Hi Calle,
You can also have two native languages. A lot of children learn two languages simulataneously.  (What better way to become bilingual?)Sounds like you're a lucky one. I didn't mean to say that people could only have one native language; what I was getting at is that everyone has _at least_ one. I don't see how it's possible not to.


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## Residente Calle 13

KateNicole said:
			
		

> Hi Calle,
> You can also have two native languages. A lot of children learn two languages simulataneously.  (What better way to become bilingual?)Sounds like you're a lucky one. I didn't mean to say that people could only have one native language; what I was getting at is that everyone has _at least_ one. I don't see how it's possible not to.



Yeah, I think that's my only option. I really don't remember having trouble with either one of those languages when I was a child. People ask me what my native language is, however, and I don't know what to say. Which one do I do better in? I don't know either. That's like asking me to pick out who my favorite wife is! I love all six of them! 

(Just kidding )


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## vince

KateNicole said:
			
		

> I don't consider accent a component of native speaker.  For example, I have friends who were born and raised in India, and have an Indian accent when they speak English--but English is their _only_ language.  They do not know any dialect native to India.  They are native English speakers.  How old were you when you started to speak English?  If you are not fluent in Cantonese (because you were very young when you stopped learning and speaking it) and you are fluent in English because that is the language you were most exposed to during your childhood, I would say you qualify as a native English speaker.



I was in kindergarten (3.5 years old) when I started to learn English, just that I was quiet as a kid so I never got rid of the accent.

Okay, I guess I am a native speaker then. I just hope the screeners will believe me if I try applying to one of those Teach English Abroad programs (I would really like to go to a Latin American country ).


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## KateNicole

Oh my gosh if you have been speaking it since you were three-and-a-half, you are DEFINITELY native!!  I bet your accent isn't as strong as you think . . .


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## mariposita

KateNicole said:
			
		

> Hi Calle,
> You can also have two native languages. A lot of children learn two languages simulataneously. (What better way to become bilingual?)Sounds like you're a lucky one. I didn't mean to say that people could only have one native language; what I was getting at is that everyone has _at least_ one. I don't see how it's possible not to.


 
I have met quite a few people who don't speak any one language with native proficiency. If a child lives in foreign countries and his/her parents don't meticulously pass on their native language, then that person can easily end up not speaking any language with total fluency, though he/she might speak several languages quite well.

As someone raising a bilingual child, I would say that it is not easy to attain native fluency in both languages and it is quite possible for a child to end up speaking both very, very well, but not like a native. The ideal situation is that of Residente. To have one or both parents speak the first language and to have the outside world teach the second language. 

Another interesting phenomenon is that of a native speaker who loses their fluency in their first language through disuse. Living abroad in different countries, I have met a handful of Americans who no longer speak English well, because they lost all contact with other native speakers. It's quite strange, but I can understand how it might happen. If you don't use a language a bit every day, it atrophies.


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## Residente Calle 13

mariposita said:
			
		

> I have met quite a few people who don't speak any one language with native proficiency.



How can you tell? Some people might say George Bush doesn't but he obviously speaks "one" form of English even if it's not the standard. I don't think you can find a healthy person who does not have at least one native language/dialect.


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## vince

Is it possible to have no native language? I think this only happens with people who have language development problems. Some autistic people can't talk, or may only be able to mutter individual words without syntax. Or the child with language development problems might not be able to cope with a growing up in a bilingual situation and ends up only being able to speak in a hybrid language and not one or the other.

But in this latter case, the hybrid language will probably have consistent grammar and syntax, so technically the person would be fluent in this language, even if it only has one speaker! A one-person creole!



			
				KateNicole said:
			
		

> Oh my gosh if you have been speaking it since you were three-and-a-half, you are DEFINITELY native!! I bet your accent isn't as strong as you think . . .



haha it's mainly with intonation, Cantonese is syllable-timed whereas English is stress-timed, so I get all the vowels and consonants right but my intonation gives away my Cantonese "background".

I know someone similar to me except that he was born in Pakistan and moved here in kindergarten. His Urdu is only slightly better than my Cantonese but his intonation is a little off as well.


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## mariposita

> How can you tell? Some people might say George Bush doesn't but he obviously speaks "one" form of English even if it's not the standard. I don't think you can find a healthy person who does not have at least one native language/dialect.


 
I am referring to people who speak haltingly and make some idiomatic and grammatical types of errors in every language that they speak. 

For example, I have a friend who is of German nationality. He lived the first four years of his life in Germany. His parents divorced and his mother remarried (a French man) and the family moved to France--the mother spoke French with the new husband and didn't keep up the German very well. Later, when he was 10, they moved to the US sans the French guy. 

He now understands German, but can't speak it well. He speaks French decently, but not with native fluency. He says that he feels that English is his strongest language, but he doesn't have native fluency. And, on top of that, he speaks Spanish quite well--they moved to Miami--but not at a native level. He, himself, says that he is a man without a native country or language. 

And he's not the only person that I have met like this. And I don't think that it is a bad thing at all. It's part of the complicated reality of being truly multicultural.

George Bush is another story entirely...


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## vince

George W. Bush is definitely a native speaker of English. He is just not known for being an articulate person. It has nothing to do with his command of English. Depending on the situation, they may sometimes speak with perfect grammar, in another they may be saying "nucular" and "I gived"


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## Residente Calle 13

Maybe, Mariposita.


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## danielfranco

I think you can tell a native speaker from a foreing speaker (if this is the counter position?) by how they swear or use insults when speaking to themselves... No, really! For example, I know the English language much better than my native Spanish tongue, but when I'm using a hammer and smash a finger with it, the first bad words coming out of my mouth are invariably in Spanish... I've noticed the same thing happening with other people, too (erm... without having to use a hammer on them, I mean, but when they swear to themselves).
I'm sure there are better ways to tell who's native and who's transplanted.
Bueno, bye.


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## KateNicole

Yeah, I agree.  I speak Spanish very fluently, but one time when I was in Mexico, I had to catch a taxi.  To make a long story short, I was only half inside the taxi (one foot in the taxi, one foot still on the pavement) when the driver accelerated like a madman and was about to drive my bare body into a utility pole.  The only words that I could get out were "STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!" followed by a series of expletives.


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## GwenE.

I think native speaker is not necessarily the first language you learned. Me for expample: I lived in Venezuela until I was 10. I speak Spanish with my parents at home. However given that I have been in the US for 17 years now and usually spoke English outside of home I find myself speaking English first, and even expressing myself better in that language. I haven't forgotten Spanish, but do find myself having a hard time remembering words and spelling of things.

So I would define native language as the language you usually think and speak in by instict. English would be mine (accent and all).

Great discussion by the way!


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## cyanista

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I think you can tell a native speaker from a foreing speaker (if this is the counter position?) by how they swear or use insults when speaking to themselves... No, really! For example, I know the English language much better than my native Spanish tongue, but when I'm using a hammer and smash a finger with it, the first bad words coming out of my mouth are invariably in Spanish... I've noticed the same thing happening with other people, too (erm... without having to use a hammer on them, I mean, but when they swear to themselves).
> I'm sure there are better ways to tell who's native and who's transplanted.
> Bueno, bye.



An interesting observation but I think it's not always like that. My native language is Russian but having lived in Germany for about two years I increasingly notice that I speak German to myself. I swear in German, use German interjections (Aua=Ouch, Ach so≈Oh etc), I even count things in German!

Was my "transplantation" oversuccessful?


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## Dission

What do you think? Do you think you can reach that level in a language which is not native for you? what does it depend on? why not?... 

I´m asking this after opening this thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=358604 in which I´m trying to direct my learning process into that goal. 

My experience tells me that depends on the person, you might be speaking the language for years, even perfectly but still your accent and voice are not native. And that´s what I´ve seen here mostly with arab people, however I met a polish guy who has been living in the country for 3 years and a half and sounds completly native (when he first came didn´t speak english at all)


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## judkinsc

In my experience, it takes three-to-five years to assume a completely "native" accent and level in a language, when you are living in that country. You'll have most of it by the second year, but you'll need to refine the "little things," which will take longer because they are not as important to communication.


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## Setwale_Charm

Theoretically, yes. I know people who have managed that after many years of training or very particular training at any rate. I have known a number of such people but they would mostly be connected to some very particular political work or have a very particular background. Or else, people who have been living among native speakers for years. 

 And I am thinking of myself too. I am not a "biologically" native Russian speaker, yet I am asked to translate and proff-read Russian texts by Russians themselves since my style is supposedly better. Here is a living example for you.


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## Dission

Thanks for answering, 

that defently has motivated me



> You'll have most of it by the second year, but you'll need to refine the "little things," which will take longer because they are not as important to communication.



You are right, those little things are not important at the moment of learning the language as way of communication, however with the time the little details can be sorted.

Anyway I think depends pretty much on the person and what we understand by "native", you can speak it fluently, perfectly, and same as a native speaker, however your voice and your accent are not natives. And that´s something that I have seen here for example an arab guy living in Britain for 30 years and that in fact has been living in this country more than in his place of origin.


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## fenixpollo

This topic has already been discussed in the threads *Will you ever sound and be accepted like a native?* and *Can a non-native speaker ever be considered "native"?*... among others.


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## Cracker Jack

Dission said:


> My experience tells me that depends on the person, you might be speaking the language for years, even perfectly but still your accent and voice are not native. And that´s what I´ve seen here mostly with arab people, however I met a polish guy who has been living in the country for 3 years and a half and sounds completly native (when he first came didn´t speak english at all)


 
One thing though.  There will come a time when you think you are so good, you feel so smug, self-satisfied.  Then unexpectedly, you commit a blunder or a native speaker will make a comment that your need to improve on certain points - phonetics or spelling.  

You might fare poorly in an exam or that your result may prove so disastrous. Or else someone might rebuke you for something, a error that may be so glaring.  You may feel crushed and it would seem like your self-esteem is bruised.  This will come your way.  Or it might even have.

Just take it lightly.  Do not be dejected.  Learn from it.  Sometimes it could really ruin your day.  However, it really depends on the manner you cope with stress.  But don't let it dampen your enthusiasm.  It is the best way to learn.


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## Setwale_Charm

Dission said:


> What do you think? Do you think you can reach that level in a language which is not native for you? what does it depend on? why not?...
> 
> I´m asking this after opening this thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=358604 in which I´m trying to direct my learning process into that goal.
> 
> My experience tells me that depends on the person, you might be speaking the language for years, even perfectly but still your accent and voice are not native. And that´s what I´ve seen here mostly with arab people, however I met a polish guy who has been living in the country for 3 years and a half and sounds completly native (when he first came didn´t speak english at all)


 

 It is interesting that you mention voice. This is something that I have always found an insurmountable obstacle. I sometimes cannot distinguish a non-native by his accent or grammar but always by his voice!!!


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## tvdxer

Dission said:


> What do you think? Do you think you can reach that level in a language which is not native for you? what does it depend on? why not?...
> 
> I´m asking this after opening this thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=358604 in which I´m trying to direct my learning process into that goal.
> 
> My experience tells me that depends on the person, you might be speaking the language for years, even perfectly but still your accent and voice are not native. And that´s what I´ve seen here mostly with arab people, however I met a polish guy who has been living in the country for 3 years and a half and sounds completly native (when he first came didn´t speak english at all)



Yes, I think it's very much possible.

In fact, there are probably a lot of second-language speakers out there who are more adept at good English than native English speakers.


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## Lugubert

tvdxer said:


> In fact, there are probably a lot of second-language speakers out there who are more adept at good English than native English speakers.


Germans after a while identify me as a non-native, because my grammar is close to impeccable. It is much harder for speakers of English, because I have learnt more colloquialisms and how to slur my speech.


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## panjabigator

So what you're saying is that by speaking better German than the Germans, you've been spotted?


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## heidita

panjabigator said:


> So what you're saying is that by speaking better German than the Germans, you've been spotted?


 
I have never met any foreigner who spoke German without making a single mistake. I should be very surprised if I ever did.

I am not talking about people born and raised in Germany, even though for other reasons they do not have the German nationality.


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## panjabigator

heidita said:


> I have never met any foreigner who spoke German without making a single mistake. I should be very surprised if I ever did.
> 
> I am not talking about people born and raised in Germany, even though for other reasons they do not have the German nationality.



This causes me to believe that the language may be too difficult for mastery in later years.  Gulp...I guess I'll cross it off my list


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## Lugubert

panjabigator said:


> So what you're saying is that by speaking better German than the Germans, you've been spotted?


_They_ say so.


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## mariposita

panjabigator said:


> This causes me to believe that the language may be too difficult for mastery in later years. Gulp...I guess I'll cross it off my list


 
Just because you can't master it like a native doesn't mean it isn't worth trying! Though my brief foray into German left me utterly discouraged. I couldn't rearrange my thinking enough to make any inroads... 

It's true, though, the ability to achieve native-level pronunciation and syntax does drop off sustantially after a certain age (it was 30 for me). I can see it in my own language learning. I think part of it is physicial/neurological and part of it is philosophical. As I get older, communication of ideas and substance is much more important to me than perfect pronunciation or grammar. When I was younger, I was horrified about making mistakes or sounding "foreign" and I worked really hard to lose my accent. Now, with a different language, I just tend to let things slide more. I'm more interested in acquiring vocabulary, getting beyond mimicking and finding ways to really be myself in a foreign language.  I would say that the process is more fun now than it was before...


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## mariposita

Lugubert said:


> _They_ say so.


 

This makes sense to me. In English--and I imagine almost any language--speaking hyper-correctly and carefully can be a real clue that someone isn't a native speaker. I think many dialects are defined by the types of phonetic or grammatical short-cuts that people take. If you live in a place and don't take the same short-cuts, it sets you apart as "other"... This can, of course, even happen if you are speaking your native language.


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## fenixpollo

heidita said:


> I have never met any foreigner who spoke German without making a single mistake. I should be very surprised if I ever did.
> 
> I am not talking about people born and raised in Germany, even though for other reasons they do not have the German nationality.


I have never met any native English-speaker who spoke English without making a single mistake. I should be very surprised if I ever did.

I am talking about people born and raised in the U.S., of varying levels of education and language ability. Native speakers are not infallible or always right.


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## SuperCholo

You can study Latin and speak with perfect grammar but I doubt anyone is fluent in Latin, so you have imperfect usage and possibly incorrect accent (who knows what Latin spoken in Rome truly sounded like?).
Uneducated locals grew up with the language, speak with perfect accent (in the sense of local accent) and perfect usage, but not necessarily correct grammar.

A linguist might learn to perfectly duplicate an accent but not be able to fluently speak the language.

Immigrants who have integrated into society and are well educated can speak with perfect grammar, perfect usage, but imperfect accent.[/quote]


While I agree that a specific accent may help one identify the speaker's regional origin, I take issue with the notion of a perfect or imperfect accent, since it gives a connotation of one being better or worse than the other. 

As a decade-plus resident of Texas, I know of many native speakers (many who had no influence of any second language) whose accent interferes the understanding of other native speakers. 

I work in an academic environment and have achieved postgraduate degrees in the US, and while I might be able to work towards an "American" accent, I treasure my (slight) Mexican accent as a testament of my background and heritage. I have found that most people who find my accent imperfect or unintelligible are rather undereducated, poorly traveled, or just plain bigots.


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## Qcumber

English London commuters can very easily detect when an announcer is not English. Whatever the language, I think very few people can achieve speaking like a native.


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## heidita

fenixpollo said:


> I have never met any native English-speaker who spoke English without making a single mistake. I should be very surprised if I ever did.
> 
> I am talking about people born and raised in the U.S., of varying levels of education and language ability. Native speakers are not infallible or always right.


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