# poetically fitting



## helene james

Hi,
Can anyone explain the nuances of this expression for me?
My context is:
"This ending seemed to be poetically fitting"
(because roughly, the characters decide to end a long journey on the day of a religious feast they somewhat despise )
Cette fin n'était pas dépourvue d'une certaine logique poétique/ d'une certaine grandeur/ d'une certaine poésie.
But from a quick search on google it seems to me that there is often a marked subtext of irony in this phrase... Or maybe not exactly irony, but something one would say about someone who lived in violence and came to a poetically fitting end when they were murdered, or something... 
Thank you...


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## johngiovanni

There is often a sense of irony, but it is difficult to understand how the irony works given the limited context.
Would it make any difference if we knew what the particular religious feast was?  Has it anything to do with a journey, starting a journey?


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## helene james

Well it's Pessah, and the journey that is about to end is actually Jesus', but the version of the book I'm working on is quite different from the one in the bible, can't really get into that since it's so intricate... Let' say he decides at that point to renounce his ministry at that time (not knowing obviously what will happen to him then)

But are you saying that there's generally more irony than actual poetry or beauty implied in the phrase? Because I see it's quite widely used, though...

[Moderator note: Consecutive posts merged. Please click the Edit option rather than posting 2x in a row.]


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## johngiovanni

helene james said:


> But are you saying that there's generally more irony than actual poetry or beauty implied in the phrase?


Yes.  It is ironically appropriate.
In the phrase "poetic justice" there is also the sense of irony.
I suppose here it is the sense that the Passover marks the end of the journey, the delivery from slavery in Egypt, and he is also ending his "journey".
Now, the reasons for his ending his journey at this particular time might be very mundane - it might even be just a coincidence -, but it is an interesting "twist" that the end of his journey coincides with the feast. 
I am not sure of the derivation - perhaps it has something to do with the appropriate endings of fictional / mythical narratives.


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## helene james

Oh thank you for your clarification, I had the same kind of feeling from other occurrences of the phrase I found online. Don't really know how to translate it though without losing this irony.


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## johngiovanni

I am not sure how to start the sentence, but would "semblait ironiquement approprié(e)" work?
"La fin de son voyage..."?  Or would it be clearer if you referred to the coincidence - the fact that the end of his journey coincided with the day of the feast?


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## helene james

I'm not sure either... Not a big fan of "ironiquement approprié", it sounds a little bit too much as a translation I think...
I'd rather not emphasize the coincidence more than it is in the original, the context makes it pretty clear, actually... Thank you so much for your help!

there's actually a second occurrence that goes: "Like I said, Pessah was a very poetically fitting end." So I sort have to be able to make something work in both occurrences...

I think maybe even more than irony, there's a sense of what you mentioned: "the appropriate endings of fictional / mythical narratives." like stressing that it gives a perfect ending to the journey on a dramatic level? maybe?

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## Itisi

Il y avait un élément de poésie qui convenait à cette fin.


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## helene james

Thank you, I d thought of Il y avait un élément de poésie (ou une certaine poésie) _dans_ cette fin, mais qui convenait je ne vois pas trop... je pense que c'est la fin qui "convient", (est appropriée/fits)... 
not sure how much of the irony it conveys though... maybe some...


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## Itisi

You don't have to convey the irony yourself, it is not expressed with the words in English, you surmise is there; and so it should be with the French.  I mean, it's up to the reader, not up to the translator.


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## helene james

oh yes, you're right, certainly...

it's just that from johngiovanni's explanations i was a bit under the impression that there was some irony automatically implied in the english words, since it's sort of a set phrase..

Anyway, if i go "il y avait une certaine poésie dans cette fin", i'm afraid the "fitting" part does get lost a little bit... I'm almost tempted to go back to literal... D'un point de vue poétique, c'était une fin assez parfaite...

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## Itisi

'poetic justice' is a set phrase.  This isn't.  If there is irony, you get it from the context.


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## helene james

Anyway, I'm not stressing the irony particularly with my last attempt: "D'un point de vue poétique, c'était une fin assez parfaite"...


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## Itisi

helene james said:


> Anyway, if i go "il y avait une certaine poésie dans cette fin", i'm afraid the "fitting" part does get lost a little bit....


  I suggested, '...qui *convenait* à cette fin'.  (Anyway, it's only a suggestion...)


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## helene james

i don't understand how this suggestion works....
this for me would mean 'there was a certain poetry (or beauty) that suited this ending' , approximately, which is a different meaning

I think the idea is more
that c'est la fin qui *convient* parce qu'elle a une dimension poétique

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## Itisi

I can't get my head round what the difference might be that you are suggesting, but/and? I still feel ok about my suggestion!


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## helene james

Well i'm bad at explaining myself and grammar I guess...but there's a difference I assure you I would rather have qui convenait _dans_ cette fin, but i really don't feel the verb convenir à works here..

Because you basically say something fits this end whereas it says that this end is fitting

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## Itisi

As I see it, the English is saying: this end is suitable because of its poetry
My French suggestion is saying: the element of poetry suits this ending
To me, it's much of a muchness, they suit each other!  But if you find something better, well and good...


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## johngiovanni

"Une fin ironique et satisfaisante"?

If "ironiquement approprié" sounds too much like a translation, I am wondering how I should translate "ironiquement approprié" into English.

What is meant by "the element of poetry"?

Quote: "If there is irony, you get it from the context."
I didn't.  I thought there was irony because of the expression "poetically fitting".  The word "poetically" already suggested irony.  I guessed the context had something to do with a journey, otherwise it would not have made much sense.
"It's just that from johngiovanni's explanations I was a bit under the impression that there was some irony automatically implied in the English words"


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## Itisi

johngiovanni said:


> "Une fin ironique et satisfaisante"?  If "ironiquement approprié" sounds too much like a translation, ...


Sorry, but It doesn't sound to me like a translation of 'poetically fitting'!  Nor does 'ironique et satisfaisante'...


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## johngiovanni

OK.  Does "poétiquement approprié" work in French, and does it have the sense of irony?


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## helene james

Iitsi, I get your point, but I still think that your two sentences are rather different and when you say "the element of poetry suits this ending" you're not saying that or why this ending is suitable. . Johngiovanni, thank you for clarifying your point of view about the irony. Maybe to a certain extent, the irony could be construed from the context though. Poétiquement approprié would sound a little stiff, unfortunately. For poétiquement approprié, i'd stick to my "d'un point de vue poétique, c'était assez parfait", and rely on the context for irony. but i'm not quite satisfied.


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## Itisi

You know what: [...] I'm coming round to the idea that *johngiovanni* has got a point with the relationship between 'our' phrase and 'poetic justice'.  I had misunderstood what you were both saying about irony.   So apologies for not being open to what you guys have been saying.  I don't think the word 'irony' should be used, though...

Peut-être qu'on pourrait dire que cette fin était 'poétiquement correcte' ?  Non, je rigole !

Je crois que le mot 'justesse' irait bien, mais je ne sais pas comment l'introduire...

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## Nicomon

In case a larger context would help...

Although the word order has been slightly modified,  I'm pretty sure that Helene James is translating what follows. Or a book  largely inspired from it.
I don't know if *this link* will be visible to everyone.  If not, try googling, as I did (with the quotation marks) :  "seemed" + "poetically fitting"


> "So, then,” I said. “How much longer?”
> I could not tell if he was thinking or hesitating. Then he gave me his answer.
> “Pesach.”
> *This seemed a poetically fitting end. *


And further on the same page :


> *And, as I said, Pesach seemed a very poetically fitting end*."


That said, I'm not inspired.

I know that _poetic justice_ is usually translated as  «_ juste retour des choses_ » or  « _justice immanente_ »...


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## helene james

Yes that's it. It is not really a question of poetic justice or even less "justice immanente" in this case though. It's not like they're settling scores or anything. More that there's something yes, I'd say both poetic and ironic in this choice of date..


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## Itisi

Ce serait/cela me paraît une fin tout à fait appropriée.


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## helene james

Merci Itisi mais là on perd quand même une nuance je trouve...

Like you îd rater not use the Word irony but the irony should not be dampened totally... After all it doesn't just say: "this seemed a perfectly appropriate end" and there is a nuance to convey...

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## Nicomon

Itisi said:


> Ce serait/cela me paraît une fin tout à fait appropriée.


   Je vote pour cette solution.
Et tant pis pour _poetically _ (qui est en partie rendu par « _tout à fait _»). Chose certaine, je ne parlerais pas de _« poésie ».
_
*Ajout :*  en fait, je le verrais plus à l'imparfait.  ... _me semblait/me paraissait une fin tout à fait appropriée. 
_


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## helene james

je persiste à penser qu'on y perd le sel de la phrase...


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## Nicomon

helene james said:


> Yes that's it. It is not really a question of poetic justice or even less "justice immanente" in this case though. It's not like they're settling scores or anything. More that there's something yes, I'd say both poetic and ironic in this choice of date.


 J'ai simplement mentionné les façons usuelles de traduire  _poetic justice_ (qui est aussi ironique) au cas où cela ferait surgir d'autres idées.

Chose certaine - mais la décision ne sera pas la mienne -  je ne le traduirais pas par _poétique_.   Ça ressemble étrangement à un faux ami, dans le contexte.
Il y a dans ce _ poetically _- je crois - un peu le sens d'_idéal.  _

Dernière idée, et vous en faites ce que vous voulez (je le suggère sans conviction) :  _symbolique ?
_


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## swift

Bonjour,

Que pensez-vous de « d’une justesse lyrique » ?


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## helene james

J'aime bien justesse aussi, sans trop savoir quoi en faire non plus. Je pense qu'il y avait quelque chose d'intéressant dans l'explication proposée par johngiovanni sur l'origine de l'expression, en rapport avec "the appropriate endings of fictional / mythical narratives." Je pense qu'il y a quelque chose de satisfaisant, presque esthétiquement, dans cette symétrie entre la fin du voyage et la fête en question. J'ai d'ailleurs envisagé ça, quelque chose avec "une belle symétrie" mais c'est un peu trop loin, trop explicite, tandis que la formulation doit rester assez ouverte je pense.. Symbolique est intéressant mais là aussi j'ai peur de surinterpreter. Je ne suis pas sure qu'il ne soit pas envisageable de conserver "poétique" même si je ne sais pas encore bien comment... Logique poétique j'avais pensé mais je ne sais pas encore... Vous parlez d'idéal, j'avais pensé à perfection ..


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## Itisi

Cela avait?/aurait? du style


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## helene james

Cela avait?/aurait? du style...
 J'aime bien...


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## Nicomon

Eh bien moi, je n'ai pas compris du tout  le lien que vous faites entre _seemed poetically fitting_  et _ cela avait du style.  
_
Ni non plus pourquoi Itisi hésite entre l'imparfait et le conditionnel.
Je préférerais  « _parfaite justesse_ » tant qu'à y être. 

Je rend mon tablier.   Je pense.


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## Itisi

Nicomon said:


> pourquoi Itisi hésite entre l'imparfait et le conditionnel.
> Je préférerais  « _parfaite justesse_ » tant qu'à y être.


J'hésite, parce que tout à l'heure, tu disais préférer l'imparfait !  (Et moi, je ne sais pas comment ça va être introduit dans le texte, et donc ce qui conviendrait.)

Moi aussi, j'aime bien 'parfaite justesse', mais comment l'introduire ?


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## helene james

Pour comment on est arrivé à "cela aurait eu du style" (la question des temps est secondaire pour l'instant)...  Je ne sais pas exactement, c'est vrai qu'on est un peu loin dans la formulation, mais j'aime bien la proposition cependant, même si je ne suis pas sûre qu'elle fonctionne tout à fait dans mon contexte. pour moi, c'est un peu l'idée: la chose (la date/la symétrie des dates) a une belle logique interne... provoquant une sorte de correspondance, de "rime" entre deux événements, qui, bien qu'un peu fortuite (pour l'instant, car vu l'histoire, cela va prendre d'autres implications, qui sont implicitement préfigurées ici) donne l'impression d'une fin, d'une conclusion assez "naturelle" (d'un point de vue narratif, presque, et pourquoi pas, poétique, je ne suis pas certaine qu'il faille rejeter systématiquement le mot, en français aussi il peut avoir une ambiguïté qui ne renvoie pas directement à la poésie au sens strict)
quant à justesse, ça me plaît bien, pourquoi pas parfaite justesse, mais je persiste à penser que si l'auteur avait voulu dire "it seemed perfectly fitting", il l'aurait fait.
Merci, hein, de vous casser la tête avec moi!


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## Nicomon

@ Itisi  :  Ben en anglais, _ seemed  _(voir l'original, cité dans mon premier post)  c'est l'imparfait, non? 

Alors, sortez vos Thesaurus, pour trouver des synonymes de l'anglais poetic_._

Bien que je l'aie suggéré sans conviction, je n'ai pas complètement écarté l'idée de _symbolique, _moi.

Sinon, je reviens à la formule passe-partout proposée par Itisi :  _*tout à fait approprié. *
_

47 posts and counting, to translate a single phrase. 
_
_


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## Itisi

helene james said:


> For poétiquement approprié, i'd stick to my "d'un point de vue poétique, c'était assez parfait"


Je ne sais plus quoi suggérer, mais j'espère que tu ne choisiras pas cette solution, que personnellement, je trouve lourde, et qui donne beaucoup d'importance au mot 'poétique', et puis comment est-ce que quelque chose peut être 'assez' parfait' ?


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## helene james

Je ne sais pas, je vais laisser reposer un peu. Assez parfait ne me choque pas, car c'est un avis, une façon de parler.. Mais lourd oui le tout un peu... Pour info l'auteur suggère seulement de prendre la chose au pied de la lettre... Ce qui me fait quand même hésiter à sacrifier le poetic...

Mais non, ma proposition ne va pas, je suis d'accord.

(i actually came up with twenty more bad ones since but I spare you...

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## iuytr

C'est juste assez poétique pour faire une bonne fin ?


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## Itisi

Quelque chose avec 'élégant' ?


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## johngiovanni

Now that I have read the context (post 32), I do not think it is necessary to point out any irony.  The reader would pick it up anyway.
"Une telle fin me semblait parfaitement appropriée".


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## helene james

Well thank you, shouldn't there be a slight difference between "perfectly fitting" and "poetically fitting" though? I mean there must be a nuance..

and I guess even if it means pretty much the same, it's intentionally a more vague, less common way to say it so I think that might be too bad to go for too plain or obvious a phrasing in French

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## johngiovanni

Perhaps, but there may be an argument that "poetically" and "appropriate" together merely reinforce each other, since describing an ending as "poetic" in certain contexts itself conveys the sense of appropriateness.
"Parfaitement" also "reinforces" "appropriée".
If you use "parfaitement appropriée" the first time, you could use Itisi's version or similar the second time round.  (Or vice versa).
"Comme j'ai dit auparavant, cela me paraît une fin tout à fait appropriée."
There is a sense of "ideal" / "perfect" in "poetic".
Sometimes there seems to be "poetic justice" in real life (as well as in the stories), but in real life the bad guys do not always get their just deserts, and the good guys are not always rewarded.  In real life, endings are not always perfectly appropriate.
Perhaps the "slight difference" in nuance is that the English use of "poetic" in these contexts includes a reference to the literary device, but it is so much part of the language now that I doubt whether most people would consciously think of the derivation.


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## helene james

Yes, but I don't think there's actually anything to do with poetic justice here.
There's absolutely no idea of reward, bad guys or good guys.
I think it is actually _poetically_ fitting as some other things
Might be politically fitting or historically fitting or aesthetically fitting. Plus I reckon there's an ambiguity, a vagueness here...


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## johngiovanni

I am sorry if my reference to "poetic justice" has confused you.
I agree entirely that there is nothing to do with poetic justice in your context.
I was simply giving an example of the way "poetic" has a sense of "ideal" or "perfect".


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## helene james

ah ok. but i understand: justice poétique does exist in french, by the way... the word poétique can be versatile too


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## johngiovanni

So it seems!  Jean François Marmontel (_Poetique Françoise, Volume 2, _1758) used "fin poetique" when talking about tragedy.

So, are you sure that "poétiquement appropriée" would not work?


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## helene james

I'm not sure of much anymore at that point I must admit... I'm not a big fan of the word "poétiquement", but that may be the closest!


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## Itisi

'séant' ?


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## helene james

you mean seyant? nah, that would be more for a piece of clothing...


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## johngiovanni

helene james said:


> I'm not sure of much anymore at that point I must admit... I'm not a big fan of the word "poétiquement", but that may be the closest!


I can see your point.  I too have some unease with "poetically appropriate", as "poetically" already suggests "appropriate".
Let this be my unpoetic conclusion!


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## helene james

Well thank you for the effort you all put in... I keep hoping if I get my mind off it for a little while, something natural will pop up off all this ...


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## Itisi

helene james said:


> you mean seyant? nah, that would be more for a piece of clothing...


No I do _not!   _As in 'bienséant', for example.

*Adjective*
séant m ‎(feminine singular séante, masculine plural séants, feminine plural séantes)

(heraldry) sejant
(obsolete) sitting (i.e. of a person in an assembly)
befitting (to), suitable


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## helene james

Oh sorry...
To my ear, there is an underlying sense of decency in there though... And it may be a little old..


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## Topsie

Une fin (un aboutissement?) digne d'une épopée


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## helene james

Well thank you, I think that might be a little
Too much though...


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## Itisi

helene james said:


> Oh sorry...
> To my ear, there is an underlying sense of decency in there though... And it may be a little old..


'séant' corresponds exactly to 'fitting', mais bon...


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## helene james

Well in the dictionary maybe it does but it's really not much in use anymore, and if it is it is generally associated with "bienséance", as you said, what is fitting and appropriate, yes, but mostly in a perspective of decency, etiquette...


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## Itisi

*helene*, you could say the same about 'fitting!

(But I don't get commission if you use particular words!)


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## helene james

I really don't think fitting sounds as obsolete as séant does. Anyways, thank you, I hardly can think anymore

En dernière analyse, je pense que je vais opter pour "poétiquement juste".. J'en ai trouvé plusieurs occurrences qui
M'ont à peu près convaincue, chez octave
Mirbeau notamment... Retour au presque mot à mot apres toutes ces réflexions. Merci à tous!

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## Nicomon

J'ai un peu l'impression de perdre mon temps, mais j'ajoute ceci. 





Itisi said:


> 'séant' corresponds exactly to 'fitting', mais bon...


 Bien d'accord.  C'est d'ailleurs une des suggestions du _Guide anglais/français de la traduction_ (René Meertens) pour traduire _fitting.   _

Cet adjectif n'est pas tant désuet que plus littéraire/soutenu.  Dans le même ordre d'idée que «_ séant_ » et plus courant, il y aurait « _opportun_ »_. _
Sinon, il y a les déjà suggérés :_ approprié, convenable.  _Ou encore :_ propice.  _ Mais_ juste _ne fait pas partie des suggestions du Meertens_. _

helene, à mon avis - mais tu t'en fiches, de mon avis  -  le _poétiquement juste_  d'Octave Mirbeau n'a pas le même sens que ton contexte _poetically fitting. _


> [...] M. Camille Lemonnier avère, comme ils disent, une autobiographie, si poétiquement juste :
> « Et depuis lors, mon âme se volatilise, parmi la gracilité mouvante des roseaux, et la frivolité des libellules. »





johngiovanni said:


> I am sorry if my reference to "poetic justice" has confused you.
> [...]I was simply giving an example of the way *"poetic" has a sense of "ideal" *or *"perfect".*


  Thank you for confirming this, johngiovanni.   I agree - and I already said it twice before - with your post #54. 
Either _tout à fait, parfaitement _or any close synonym (_idéalement, absolument) _+ whichever word best renders _fitting._

But not  _poétiquement_. Please, pretty please.


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## helene james

It's not that I don't care about what you have to say, it's that I hardly care for the superiority, Nicomon. And yes, even though you stated your opinion _twice_, (that would be thrice now, I guess) I still am unconvinced .. Go figure. Anyway. Plus johngiovanni does not seem to entirely share your opinion, btw, since he's the one who reintroduced the idea of "poétiquement", juste or otherwise, after a lengthy discussion. That and of course the author, as I mentioned, who advised me to take it literally, in a phrasing that remains vague and mysterious enough (hence _not_: tout à fait séant).


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## helene james

And by the way, you did make some good points though, and now I'm envisioning a simpler "une fin idéale" which does sound more natural and maybe sufficient after all


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