# Hindi: vyakti



## greatbear

This thread has been split from the one on *"shakhs*" *here*. 



tonyspeed said:


> So how is "shaXs" any different from "vyakti" which is used for both sexes?? Clarification s'il vous plait.



I have no idea if they are different or no, but yes "vyakti" is used for both the sexes; I wouldn't use "vyakti" as well though if I know it's a woman we are talking about. To translate "four women are going to the market" as "chaar vyakti bazaar jaa raheN haiN" sounds awkward or even misleading even if grammatically correct.


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## lafz_puchnevala

greatbear said:


> I have no idea if they are different or no, but yes "vyakti" is used for both the sexes; I wouldn't use "vyakti" as well though if I know it's a woman we are talking about. To translate "four women are going to the market" as "chaar vyakti bazaar jaa raheN haiN" sounds awkward or even misleading even if grammatically correct.



A good case to study for all languages which are gender based...


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> I have no idea if they are different or no, but yes "vyakti" is used for both the sexes; I wouldn't use "vyakti" as well though if I know it's a woman we are talking about. To translate "four women are going to the market" as "chaar vyakti bazaar jaa raheN haiN" sounds awkward or even misleading even if grammatically correct.



Very awkward indeed! And I don't know how it would be grammatically correct.


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> I have no idea if they are different or no, but yes "vyakti" is used for both the sexes; I wouldn't use "vyakti" as well though if I know it's a woman we are talking about. To translate "four women are going to the market" as "chaar vyakti bazaar jaa raheN haiN" sounds awkward or even misleading even if grammatically correct.



so there is no grammatically neutral term for individual in Hindi is your claim?


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> so there is no grammatically neutral term for individual in Hindi is your claim?



You could read my post again. I said I would feel awkward.


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## marrish

BelligerentPacifist said:


> As well as I can see, _shaxS _is someone (and dare  I say, something) that has _tashaxxus _- identity. So what we're saying is things like "two identifiables are going to the market".*
> 
> I find no reason for it to be not correct, except that shaxS could be supplanted by a better owrd.
> 
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> 
> * maybe except if they were identical twins dressed the same??
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> Alfaaz said:
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> 
> Creative way of looking at it!
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> UrduMedium said:
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> I have not looked up, but _acchii shaxs_ sound quite wrong to me. acchi _shaxsiat _would be fine. I cannot recall hearing/using _shaxs _grammatically feminine.
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> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


_shaxs شخص_ in Urdu is a masculine noun. _vyakti_ व्यक्ति in Hindi is a feminine noun. There is nothing creative in BP SaaHib's approach, it is simply the truth (Urdu). I think that using 'creativity' is not proper here.

_shaxsiyyat شخصیت_ has nothing to do here since this thread goes about _shaxs شخص_ and its gender.

_shaxs or vyakti_ is a person - which gender has a person?  _2 vyakti jaa rahe the_ or _2 vyaktiyaaN jaa rahii thiiN_?

do shaxs jaa rahe the or do shaxseN jaa rahii thiiN?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> _vyakti_ व्यक्तिin Hindi is a feminine noun.



Where did you get the idea that "vyakti" is feminine?


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> Where did you get the idea that "vyakti" is feminine?



Platts

S ويکت व्यक्ति _vyakti_, vulg. _vyakt_, s.f. Appearance, manifestation;—clearness, distinctness, discernibility; discrimination;—specific appearance or variation, individuality;—a *person*, an individual (opp. to _jāti_);—variety; (in Gram.) gender; case, inflection; the proper form of an inflected word:—_vyakti-vāćak_, adj. Denoting, or expressive of, a person or individual;—s.m. (in Gram). A proper name


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## greatbear

From Caturvedi,

*व्यक्ति vyakti (nm) an individual, a person; subject*; ~क individual, personal; ~गत subjective; individual, personal; ~निष्ट subjective; -पद singular term; ~वाचक proper; •संज्ञा proper noun; ~वाद individualism; ~वादिता individualism; individualistic outlook; ~वादी an individualist; individualistic; ~वैचित्र्यवाद (in literature) the theory of subjective/personal typicality/identity; hence ~वैचित्र्यवादी (_a_, _nf_).

In other words, it's laughable to think of "vyakti" as feminine.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> From Caturvedi,
> 
> *व्यक्ति vyakti (nm) an individual, a person; subject*; ~क individual, personal; ~गत subjective; individual, personal; ~निष्ट subjective; -पद singular term; ~वाचक proper; •संज्ञा proper noun; ~वाद individualism; ~वादिता individualism; individualistic outlook; ~वादी an individualist; individualistic; ~वैचित्र्यवाद (in literature) the theory of subjective/personal typicality/identity; hence ~वैचित्र्यवादी (_a_, _nf_).
> 
> In other words, it's laughable to think of "vyakti" as feminine.



As an Urdu-speaker who has a pretty good command over Hindi and preceeding languages, let me ask you whether the following dictionary reference is no longer used>

*व्यक्ति*संज्ञा स्त्री० [सं०]१. व्यक्त होने की क्रिया या भाव । प्रका- शित या द्दश्य होना । प्रकट होना । २. मनुष्य या किसी और शरीरधारी का सारा शरीर, जिसकी पृथक् सत्ता मानी जाती है और जो किसी समूह या समाज का अंग समझा जाता है । समष्टि का उलटा । व्यष्टि । ३. मनुष्य । आदमी । जैसे,—कुछ व्यक्ति ऐसे होते हैं जो सदा दूसरों का अपकार ही किया करते हैं ।

This dictionary is old and I am iterested to know the modern usage, of course!


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> As an Urdu-speaker who has a pretty good command over Hindi and preceeding languages, let me ask you whether the following dictionary reference is no longer used>
> 
> *व्यक्ति*संज्ञा स्त्री० [सं०]१. व्यक्त होने की क्रिया या भाव । प्रका- शित या द्दश्य होना । प्रकट होना । २. मनुष्य या किसी और शरीरधारी का सारा शरीर, जिसकी पृथक् सत्ता मानी जाती है और जो किसी समूह या समाज का अंग समझा जाता है । समष्टि का उलटा । व्यष्टि । ३. मनुष्य । आदमी । जैसे,—कुछ व्यक्ति ऐसे होते हैं जो सदा दूसरों का अपकार ही किया करते हैं ।
> 
> This dictionary is old and I am iterested to know the modern usage, of course!



"vyakti" is indeed feminine when it means "व्यक्त होने की क्रिया या भाव" and all related meanings (all under 1. above), though the word in this sense is hardly used now: the derivation "abhivyakti" (again feminine) is still used a lot, though.
However, when "vyakti" means an individual, then it is masculine. Even in the the definition you've given above, you can see the example "कुछ व्यक्ति ऐसे होते हैं" - there is "hote" instead of "hoti", since "vyakti" as individual is masculine.


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## marrish

It is the same usage as shaxs. A person, the sex not being specified. However the grammatical one is masculine.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> It is the same usage as shaxs. A person, the sex not being specified. However the grammatical one is masculine.



Yes, of course it is; whether used for women or men, the gender of the word "vyakti" remains masculine when meaning individual.


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## marrish

OK, I agree as to the usage, be it shaxs or vyakti, any *person*. But you have to follow the grammar, which doesn't necessarily mirror the actual sex.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> OK, I agree as to the usage, be it shaxs or vyakti, any *person*. But you have to follow the grammar, which doesn't necessarily mirror the actual sex.



I never questioned that. What I asked, would you say for four women "chaar vyakti/shaxs jaa rahe haiN"? Would it be _natural _for you to refer a woman as shaxs?


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> From Caturvedi,
> 
> *व्यक्ति vyakti (nm) an individual, a person; subject*; ~क individual, personal; ~गत subjective; individual, personal; ~निष्ट subjective; -पद singular term; ~वाचक proper; •संज्ञा proper noun; ~वाद individualism; ~वादिता individualism; individualistic outlook; ~वादी an individualist; individualistic; ~वैचित्र्यवाद (in literature) the theory of subjective/personal typicality/identity; hence ~वैचित्र्यवादी (_a_, _nf_).
> 
> In other words, it's laughable to think of "vyakti" as feminine.


I quoted an entry from Platts which gives "vyakti" as feminine. He does indicate the origins of the word as S (Sanskrit). So, I was merely pointing out to you a non-web source where the word is given as feminine. The title of the dictionary, after all, is "A Dictionary of Urdu, Classical Hindi and English". Even though I knew the usage of vyakti in Hindi (masculine), it occurred to me that this could possibly be one of those words which is used in both genders. If Platts is wrong in assigning the feminine gender to this word, then this is another matter. Perhaps his mistake was in giving the Sanskrit gender of the word which had switched over as far as Hindi is concerned. Arthur Anthony Maconnell's "A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary" also gives vyakti as feminine.

vyakti(p. 300) [ vi½akti ] f. manifestation, appearance; distinctness, clearness; distinction, differ ence; differentiated thing, individual (_opp. gâti); grammatical gender:*-m bhag, stand out clearly (rivers).*_


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> I quoted an entry from Platts which gives "vyakti" as feminine. He does indicate the origins of the word as S (Sanskrit). So, I was merely pointing out to you a non-web source where the word is given as feminine. The title of the dictionary, after all, is "A Dictionary of Urdu, Classical Hindi and English". Even though I knew the usage of vyakti in Hindi (masculine), it occurred to me that this could possibly be one of those words which is used in both genders. If Platts is wrong in assigning the feminine gender to this word, then this is another matter. Perhaps his mistake was in giving the Sanskrit gender of the word which had switched over as far as Hindi is concerned. Arthur Anthony Maconnell's "A Practical Sanskrit Dictionary" also gives vyakti as feminine.
> 
> vyakti(p. 300) [ vi½akti ] f. manifestation, appearance; distinctness, clearness; distinction, differ ence; differentiated thing, individual (_opp. gâti); grammatical gender:*-m bhag, stand out clearly (rivers).*_



You could read post no. 30 to know when _vyakti _is feminine and when not. Dictionaries merely record what people speak; it is what people speak that defines, thankfully, a language.
It's Mac*d*o*n*ell by the way. As you said recently, even two mistakes in one sentence (this is one word though) are very common. And the dictionary is Sanskrit, which we are not discussing here.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> You could read post no. 30 to know when _vyakti _is feminine and when not. Dictionaries merely record what people speak; it is what people speak that defines, thankfully, a language.
> It's Mac*d*o*n*ell by the way. As you said recently, even two mistakes in one sentence (this is one word though) are very common. And the dictionary is Sanskrit, which we are not discussing here.



Thank you for the correction and I had read post 30.

I think if scholars begin to include everything that all people say as a guide to correct standard  speech (for example, fir/shaqs/roj/jyaada/azeeb/raheN haiN...), then we will end up with a right mess! Grammar books and dictionaries attempt to reflect what is considered to be an agreed acceptable language by the best speakers and writers of that language.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you for the correction and I had read post 30.
> 
> I think if scholars begin to include everything that all people say as a guide to correct standard  speech (for example, fir/shaqs/roj/jyaada/azeeb/raheN haiN...), then we will end up with a right mess! Grammar books and dictionaries attempt to reflect what is considered to be an agreed acceptable language by the best speakers and writers of that language.



Well, but, as already evident in Caturvedi, "vyakti" as masculine when it means individual is _standard _Hindi: you are indeed right if scholars start listening to _har gayaa-guzraa_ (for example, _vyakti "individual" _as feminine, some of the future tense constructions), then dictionaries would be in a mess (not "we" though in my opinion, for even a person who hasn't seen a dictionary speaks his or her language fine enough).


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> Well, but, as already evident in Caturvedi, "vyakti" as masculine when it means individual is _standard _Hindi: you are indeed right if scholars start listening to _har gayaa-guzraa_ (for example, _vyakti "individual" _as feminine, some of the future tense constructions), then dictionaries would be in a mess (not "we" though in my opinion, for even a person who hasn't seen a dictionary speaks his or her language fine enough).



Regarding "vyakti", I have clarified my position in post 38 which you have already read. About "future tense constructions", watch this space.

I have never claimed to be infallible. If I make a mistake, I put my hand up and say I was wrong. I don't lose any self-esteem over the matter. agar aap kii nazroN meN maiN "gayaa-guzraa" huuN to ko'ii baat nahiiN.


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## tonyspeed

In all the early sources vyakti is feminine. Shabd Saagar has it as feminine as well. 



> व्यक्ति *संज्ञा स्त्री*० [सं०] १. व्यक्त होने की क्रिया या भाव । प्रका- शित या द्दश्य होना । प्रकट होना । २. मनुष्य या किसी और शरीरधारी का सारा शरीर, जिसकी पृथक् सत्ता मानी जाती है और जो किसी समूह या समाज का अंग समझा जाता है । समष्टि का उलटा । व्यष्टि । ३. मनुष्य । आदमी । जैसे,—कुछ *व्यक्ति* ऐसे होते हैं जो सदा दूसरों का अपकार ही किया करते हैं ।




In the Mcgreggor Oxford Hindi-English it is marked (m.;f). In the intro information it says words marked (m,f) mean
words that change with the gender of the thing referred to but (m;f)  has a semi-colon and not a comma. So I can only assume it means that depending on who you talk to (or what source you are reading)
the gender is masculine or feminine (with masculine being now dominant.). My two other dictionaries have it marked as masculine. I think we can safely assume that when vyakti was first introduced into Hindi from 
Sanskrit it was feminine. As time went on, due to the lack of consulting the dictionary standard or through a process equating shakti to shakhs, the gender has changed.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> Well, but, as already evident in Caturvedi, "vyakti" as masculine when it means individual is _standard _Hindi.


Indeed, it is correct. Still, the question remains unanswered whether native speakers use vyakti when referring to women?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Indeed, it is correct. Still, the question remains unanswered whether native speakers use vyakti when referring to women?



I think I had already said in post 7 that it's used for both the sexes; and - to me - it is a much more natural neutral term than 'shaxs', though I wouldn't prefer using any of them if I know that I am referring to a woman.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> I think I had already said in post 7 that it's used for both the sexes; and - to me - it is a much more natural neutral term than 'shaxs', though I wouldn't prefer using any of them if I know that I am referring to a woman.


Post #7 was so long ago! So I see that gramatically it might be used regarding women but teh usage of the native speakers prefers to indicate the sex rather than using _vyakti_. Thank you for this information.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Post #7 was so long ago! So I see that gramatically it might be used regarding women but teh usage of the native speakers prefers to indicate the sex rather than using _vyakti_. Thank you for this information.



No, I think I said in both the posts about my personal preference; native speakers are quite comfortable using "vyakti" for women.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> No, I think I said in both the posts about my personal preference; native speakers are quite comfortable using "vyakti" for women.


Seemingly I was wrong considering your opinion to be one of the native speakers, to be followed. I'll take the needed margin further on.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> No, I think I said in both the posts about my personal preference; native speakers are quite comfortable using "vyakti" for women.


Not only are the Hindi speakers comfortable with using ''vyakti'' for a female but don't shy from using it in the feminine in the general sense, as a noun.

A couple of examples: 
ve ek aisii vyakti thiiN jo svatantrataa ke prati atyant tiikSHNRa driSHTikoNR rakhtii thiiN. - Mahadevi Verma kii vishwadrishti
saare ghar meN ekmaatr Pramila hii aisii vyakti thii jiske man meN uske prati sneh ke atirikt shraddhaa bhii thii. 
maarne vaalii aisii vyakti ko uskaa phal turant milnaa praarambh ho jaayegaa
parantu aisii vyakti jo...
aisii vyakti adhiktar satii ke chiiroN meN praapt hotii haiN
शियावोन ने कहा, ‘लेकिन मैं सामंता को कुछ कहना चाहती हूं कि वह बहुत अच्छी व्यक्ति हैं shiyaavon ne kahaa, 'lekin maiN Samanta ko kuchh kahnaa chaahtii huuN ki vah bahut achchii vyakti haiN.'
बार बार पाप करनेसे मनुष्य की विवेकबुद्धी नष्ट होती है और जिसकी विवेकबुद्धी नष्ट हो चुकी हो , ऐसी व्यक्ति हमेशा पापही करती है | aisii vyakti hameshaa paap hii kartii hai. See just above *सुभाषित 209 *


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## greatbear

Post 1 itself, by me, said that "vyakti can be used for both sexes", so I don't see what is the whole hue and cry about. However, the question is of what's the impression one gets, what is normal, when women are in question. Here are some of the many interesting sentences found on the Internet:

हर _व्यक्ति औरत_ को उसके हक देने कि बात करता है , हर मज़हब औरतो के हुकूक के लिए खुद को अव्वल बताता है ...
यदि एक _व्यक्ति_ किसी _औरत_ की हत्या कर देता तो उसको दंड देने के बजाय ...
मुर्दाघर में मृत _व्यक्ति_ से _औरत_ प्रेग्नेंट ... (I don't think a woman can make another woman pregnant?  )
तीन चीज़े _व्यक्ति_ के मन का विस्तार करती हैं।वे हैं,एक सुन्दर _औरत_,एक सुन्दर आवास और सुन्दर क्लिम(पात्र) ...
इस्लाम किसी _व्यक्ति_ को दो, तीन अथवा चार _औरतों_ से इस शर्त पर विवाह करने की इजाज़त देता है ...
सर्वोच्च न्यायालय ने एक प्रकरण में यह व्यवस्था दी है कि अगर कोई _व्यक्ति_ एक पत्नी के होते दूसरी _औरत_ को भी रख लेता है ...
एक व्यक्ति एक औरत होने का दावा करने ...
एक _व्‍यक्ति_ उस बड़े कमरे में आया। वह एक _औरत_ थी। (first, a person came. then the narrator gets to know that it's a woman. note that no "meN aayii")


How many more need to be put on here?


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## fdb

vyakti- is a so-called tatsama, that is: a Sanskrit loanword in Hindi, not an organic part of the evolved New-Indo-Aryan vocabulary. In Sanskrit it is feminine and means in the first instance “separate, individual”. 

PS. I am not commenting on its usage/gender in Hindi.


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## nineth

vyakti when used in the singular to mean a person is 'masculine' in my head - I have absolutely no doubt about it.  However, I won't find it odd if it's used in a gender-neutral context describing unknown people esp. in the plural (10 vyakti yahaaN pay baiTh saktay haiN).


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## Chhaatr

I can't bring myself to say "woh ek achhii vyaktii haiN".  If I have to say something like this I would substitute "vyaktii" with "insaan".


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## greatbear

Thus, 3 out of 3 native Hindi speakers, who have so far have had something to say, have the same opinion about not preferring to use "vyaktii" for female gender.


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## Qureshpor

Examples of use of "vyaktiyaaN".

यह प्रणाली विदेश की धन अंतरण प्रख्यात कंपनियाँ (विदेशी नियंत्रक कार्यालय) तथा प्राधिकृत व्यक्तियाँ (भारतीय एजेंट), जो चालू विनिमय दरों पर लाभार्थियों को निधि वितरित करती हैं, के बीच की एक ताल-मेल व्यवस्था संबंधी विचार करती है । यह प्रणाली कोई बाह्य प्रेषण अनुमत नहीं करती है ।

http://www.rbi.org.in/hindi/Scripts/apdir.aspx?id=2404 (Reserve Bank of India)--central bank

वी.आईबी.एस्.ई.टी.आई. को संकाय सहायता अनुभवी व्यक्तियाँ

http://vijayabank.com/Hindi/Media-Centre/News/8

दूध दोहन विधियो तथा दुग्ध स्रवण संबंधी व्यक्तियाँ

http://www.printsasia.com/book/%E0%A...A5%8D%E0%A4%B0


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## nineth

QURESHPOR said:


> Examples of use of "vyaktiyaaN".
> 
> यह प्रणाली विदेश की धन अंतरण प्रख्यात कंपनियाँ (विदेशी नियंत्रक कार्यालय) तथा प्राधिकृत व्यक्तियाँ (भारतीय एजेंट), जो चालू विनिमय दरों पर लाभार्थियों को निधि वितरित करती हैं, के बीच की एक ताल-मेल व्यवस्था संबंधी विचार करती है । यह प्रणाली कोई बाह्य प्रेषण अनुमत नहीं करती है ।
> 
> http://www.rbi.org.in/hindi/Scripts/apdir.aspx?id=2404 (Reserve Bank of India)--central bank)
> 
> वी.आईबी.एस्.ई.टी.आई. को संकाय सहायता अनुभवी व्यक्तियाँ
> 
> http://vijayabank.com/Hindi/Media-Centre/News/8
> 
> दूध दोहन विधियो तथा दुग्ध स्रवण संबंधी व्यक्तियाँ
> 
> http://www.printsasia.com/book/%E0%A...A5%8D%E0%A4%B0



You want me to email them and tell them their usage was wrong?!


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## Qureshpor

nineth said:


> You want me to email them and tell them their usage was wrong?!


Do whatever you feel you should do!


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