# Timeo danaos et dona ferentes



## Sandraseijas

Buenas tardes a todos!
seguro es muy fácil pero yo no logro descifrar...¿sabeis que significa esta frase?
Timeo danaos et dona ferentes

Does anybody know what it means?

Gracias por la ayuda!
Thanks for your help!


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## Whodunit

Here's a literal translation:

_I fear those who are like Danaus and them bringing gifts._

The meaning should be, also according to the Italian Wikipedia, _I fear the Greeks, even when they bring gifts._


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## clares3

La he visto traducida de dos formas: 
temo a los griegos y a los que hacen regalos
temo a los griegos aunque hagan regalos

Segura Munguía, en su diccionario de Latín-Español, la traduce "temo a los griegos hasta cuando hacen regalos". Yo me quedaría con esta.
Clares3


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## Sandraseijas

Olé!
Gracias chicos, habéis sido de gran ayuda!
Buena tarde...


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## Spectre scolaire

[quidquid id est,] timeo Danaos et dona ferentis​
This is a famous passage in the second book of Virgil’s _Aeneid_: “[Whatever it is,] I fear the Greeks even bringing gifts.”

The Danaids are Greek women, the 50 daughters of Danaus (Greek:Δαναός **)*), a figure in Greek mythology. (It is a rather bloody history). Relevant for this quotation is that the plural masculine word - the descendants of Danaus’ daughters - realized as _Danaans_ in English, was used to denote Greeks in general, and especially in connection with the Trojan War. And the _Aeneid_ is precisely a continuation of Homer’s epic poem about the same war. 

An interesting, but well-known comment – the _deux ex machina_-resolution, as it were, of a paradox – should be born in mind. It is formulated like this in Wikipedia:




> One might also note the relationship between the Trojans and Greeks in the Aeneid. The Trojans were the ancestors of the Romans according to the Aeneid, and their enemies were the Greek forces who had besieged and sacked Troy; yet at the time the Aeneid was written, the Greeks were part of the Roman Empire and a respected people who were considered cultured and civilised. This situation is resolved by the fact that the Greeks beat the Trojans only through the use of a trick, the wooden horse, not on the open field of battle: Thus Roman dignity is saved.


 **)* The accent on the last syllable of this Greek name will appear in Latin as a long syllable in the hexameter. The quoted line (including the words in square brackets) constitutes one hexametric line.
 ​


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## Fernando

The origin of the phrase has been said before.

It is been used sometimes as a set phrase, to say you distrust someone no matter what he does. Even if he does something it is suppossed to be very kind and altruistic, you should not trust it and search which is the hidden agenda.


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## Flaminius

Spectre said:
			
		

> timeo Danaos et dona ferentes


I am not sure if the accusative plural has an allomorph but _ferentes _seems the best-known version.


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## Cagey

Flaminius said:


> I am not sure if the accusative plural has an allomorph but _ferentes _seems the best-known version.



Ferentes vs. ferentis: -is was the regular ending until the Augustan period. 
For sake of consistency, textbooks often use only the -es form.  My copy of the _Aeneid_ has ferentis  in this line. 

An aside, but relevant, I hope, as the issue has been raised.


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## brian

Hi all,

When I was in high school, I memorized this line with "ferent*i*s," along with the beginning part of the sentence, "Quidquid id est, timeo..."--"Whatever it is, I fear..."

The "et" here must be taken as "even" and cannot be the conjunction "and."


brian


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## Spectre scolaire

Cagey said:


> Ferentes vs. ferentis: -is was the regular ending until the Augustan period.


 The version I adopted does indeed look strange according to what we usually learn in school, but it is correct  – as _Cagey_ points out. It looks like a genitive, but it isn’t. The genitive singular would constitute a short vowel in the metre – not that _that_ would matter; this last syllable of the hexameter would have tolerated both! – but the *i* in ferentis is long, and it is an oldish version of the accusative plural which (syntactically _in casu_) stands in apposition to Danaos. (I can’t see how a genitive would fit in syntactically in any case).

As for Danaos, it could be seen as a Greek accusative plural in Latin (like _pater familias_ is a Greek genitive sing. in Latin). My point with the “footnote” was to focus on the Greek accent of this name, a name which became synonymous with Graecus when talking (in Latin) about the Trojans (who were not Trojans, but Greeks...). When saying Danaus [nom. sing. = the name] in Latin, I don’t think the accent would be on the last syllable! But in the metre – because the *o* is long (and _has_ to be long to fit the metre!) - it _looks as if_ it has the accent _à la grecque_. 

No wonder this passage is “problematic”...
 ​


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## modus.irrealis

Spectre scolaire said:


> As for Danaos, it could be seen as a Greek accusative plural in Latin


I'm not sure what you mean. This is just the Latin accusative plural. Wouldn't a Greek accusative plural be Danaūs?



> (like _pater familias_ is a Greek genitive sing. in Latin).


I've only seen this explained as the inherited form of the genitive singular which survives only in a few set phrases but was generally replaced by analogy (with the 2nd declension).


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## Spectre scolaire

I suppose you mean that Latin has got acc. pl. -ōs where Greek has -ūs. Would there be any difference in the Latin script?

In order to stick to names which are relevant to the Trojan War, I wonder what Teucros would have been in acc. plural. As far as I know – I would have to consult a Latin dictionary – this name does not have a Latin equivalent, but, of course, it wasn’t submitted to the same metonymic change as Δαναός; it doesn’t possess a plural. Supposing that Δαναός – as the Greek name it notoriously is – had a Latin nom. sing. form *Danaǒs, what would acc. plur. have been? 

Whatever, I let the Latin-Greek imbroglio go too far. Our Aeneid passage invited me to do so...




			
				modus.irrealis said:
			
		

> I've only seen [pater familias] explained as the inherited form of the genitive singular which survives only in a few set phrases but was generally replaced by analogy (with the 2nd declension).


 I always thought _pater familias_ was a “Greek genitive” in Latin, and so it was called in class – perhaps “entre guillemets”. An archaism sounds much more plausible.
 ​


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## modus.irrealis

Spectre scolaire said:


> I suppose you mean that Latin has got acc. pl. -ōs where Greek has -ūs. Would there be any difference in the Latin script?


Wouldn't the difference be _us_ vs. _os_? But looking it up in Allen & Greenough, it seems that, even with those Greek 2nd declension nouns that were partially declined the Greek way, the accusative plural was always formed the Latin way, so I guess any such accusative would have -os.

And just for completeness, I looked up the names in the dictionary, and there's Danaus coming from Δαναός and Teucer from Τεῦκρος, which are normal adaptations. And you also have Teucri for "Trojans" (although Τεῦκροι seems to have been used that way in Greek as well).


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## linguos

_"Quiquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis._"

In what form is the verb "dōnā́re" here? So far I found "dōnā" only as the imperativus praesentis activi (I conjugation sg.). In the English translation it's in the present participle, right?

Also, are there any other instances where "et" functions as "even"?


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## Agró

linguos said:


> _"Quiquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentis._"
> 
> In what form is the verb "dōnā́re" here? So far I found "dōnā" only as the imperativus praesentis activi (I conjugation sg.). In the English translation it's in the present participle, right?
> 
> Also, are there any other instances where "et" functions as "even"?



Not a verb in this case, but a noun, acusative plural of _donum, -i_ (given things, presents, gifts).
_Ferentes/Ferentis_ is the present participle and _dona_ its direct object.


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## linguos

I see, I got it all wrong then! 

So, when we break down the sentence we have:

_quiquid id est_ - whatever it is
_timeo_ - the 1st person singular present active of "timēre" meaning "to fear, to be afraid of"
_Danaos_ - the plural accusative of "Danaus" standing for "Danaans, the tribe of Danaus, a mythical king of Egypt"?
_et_ - normally "and", here functioning as "even" - why isn't it "etiam" which dictionaries usually translate directly as "even"?
_dōna_ - the accusative plural of "donum" meaning "gift, present"
ferentes/ferentis - the present participle of "ferre" meaning "to bear, to carry"

Please correct me, if I still got something wrong here and clarify the lines ending with a question mark.


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## Agró

linguos said:


> I see, I got it all wrong then!
> 
> So, when we break down the sentence we have:
> 
> _quiquid id est_ - whatever it is
> _timeo_ - the 1st person singular present active of "timēre" meaning "to fear, to be afraid of"
> _Danaos_ - the plural accusative of "Danaus" standing for "Danaans, the tribe of Danaus, a mythical king of Egypt"? (Danaus -a -um _adj_.: Greek(s); Danaus -i, _m_.: king of Argos)
> _et_ - normally "and", here functioning as "even" - why isn't it "etiam" which dictionaries usually translate directly as "even"? (_*et*_ is also an adverb meaning even, among other things)
> _dōna_ - the accusative plural of "donum" meaning "gift, present"
> ferentes/ferentis - the present participle of "ferre" meaning "to bear, to carry"
> 
> Please correct me, if I still got something wrong here and clarify the lines ending with a question mark.


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## linguos

Ah, yes, of course, it was Beleus, the father of Danaos, who was the king of Egypt (and after him, Danaos' brother Aegyptus). Danaos, escaped from his brother ruling in Egypt and went to Argos, when he later became the king. 

As for _et_ being an adverb meaning "even" could you give me some other examples from the classical literature? I would really appreciate such help.


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## Agró

linguos said:


> Ah, yes, of course, it was Beleus, the father of Danaos, who was the king of Egypt (and after him, Danaos' brother Aegyptus). Danaos, escaped from his brother ruling in Egypt and went to Argos, when he later became the king.
> 
> As for _et_ being an adverb meaning "even" could you give me some other examples from the classical literature? I would really appreciate such help.


The "Timeo Danaos..." example is the only one that comes to mind right now, but there are similar uses (_also, and yet_):

Veniet *et* mater eius: _His mother will *also *come._ (I guess _"*Even *his mother will come"_ would be appropriate here, too).

Hoc adhuc non amisi, *et* videtis annos: _I have not yet lost this faculty, *and yet* you see/notice my years/age._


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## Perseas

linguos said:


> Ah, yes, of course, it was Beleus, the father of Danaos, who was the king of Egypt (and after him, Danaos' brother Aegyptus). Danaos, escaped from his brother ruling in Egypt and went to Argos, when he later became the king.


That's mythology, of course  . I' ve heard that the root "-dan" meant "water" and that the etymology of Danube, Dniester, Don etc  is related with this root. 



> As for _et_ being an adverb meaning "even" could you give me some other examples from the classical literature? I would really appreciate such help.


I think that the function of the participle "ferentis" makes "et" to mean even. What I mean:"ferentis" is an adverbial participle denoting concession. This participle can be analysed in an adverbial clause denoting concession, but I can't help any more. I left Latin since I was 18.


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## CapnPrep

linguos said:


> As for _et_ being an adverb meaning "even" could you give me some  other examples from the classical literature? I would really appreciate  such help.


Have a look at section H ("= etiam") of the L&S entry.



Perseas said:


> I think that the function of the participle "ferentis" makes "et" to mean even. What I mean:"ferentis" is an adverbial participle denoting concession. This participle can be analysed in an adverbial clause denoting concession, but I can't help any more.


I'm afraid that this is not a good analysis.


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## Perseas

CapnPrep said:


> I'm afraid that this is not a good analysis.


I'm not convinced that you' re right. 

Can you provide us your analysis, to test if it's a good one?


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## linguos

CapnPrep said:


> Have a look at section H ("= etiam") of the L&S entry.


This is very helpful! Thank you very much.

I also appreciate all previous Agró's and Perseas's contributions.


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## CapnPrep

Perseas said:


> Can you provide us your analysis, to test if it's a good one?


Mine is the same as everyone else's. The problems I have with your concessive adverbial participle idea are:


This is a concept from traditional Greek grammar, not generally recognized in Latin.
Even for Greek, the term "adverbial" is problematic, since the participle plainly modifies a noun, not the verb, and shows adjectival agreement.
Let's say Virgil is using Greek syntax here (given the literary tradition of making the Trojans speak Greek). But concessive participles appear before the main verb and modify the subject. Here we have the participle after the verb, modifying the direct object.


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## Perseas

CapnPrep said:


> Mine is the same as everyone else's.


Subjective. 


> The problems I have with your concessive adverbial participle idea are:
> 
> 
> This is a concept from traditional Greek grammar, not generally recognized in Latin.
> Even for Greek, the term "adverbial" is problematic, since the participle plainly modifies a noun, not the verb, and shows adjectival agreement.
> Let's say Virgil is using Greek syntax here (given the literary tradition of making the Trojans speak Greek). But concessive participles appear before the main verb and modify the subject. Here we have the participle after the verb, modifying the direct object.


1. This is not true. On the contrary, the Latin school book says that it is very common in Latin the adverbial usage of the participle (of time, condition, concession, cause).
Examples:
pugnans cadit: the participle expresses time
moriturus tremit: the participle expresses cause

2. In this case, the participle "ferontes" can not be adjectival. It modifies the verb. The meaning of the sentence is very clear. 

3. a. There's no such a rule in the Greek syntax.
    b. Apart from a., your reasoning is not adequate to conclude that the participle is necessarily adjectival .


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## CapnPrep

There can be no doubt that_ ferentes_ modifies _Danaos_. On this point, the syntax of the sentence is very clear. There is no way to argue (morphologically, syntactically, or semantically) that _ferentes_ modifies the verb _timeo_.

Of course we all agree that the sentence has a concessive interpretation. The question is whether this comes from _et_ or from the participle (or both, or neither). It seems to me that we could have the same meaning in a sentence like _Timeo Danaos et stultos_ ("I fear Greeks, even foolish ones"), and there is no participle here, or anything that can be considered adverbial.


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## Perseas

The participles because of their nature have double characteristics (nominal and verbal); hence the agreement (on any level) with the noun. 

I think the most important here is the concessive interpretation, on which we all agree that there is.  In such a context I couldn't define this participle other than concessive. It wouldn't make sense to me, if I considered it as adjectival. 

I' l try to make myself clearer. From what I know, an adjectival participle can be analysed to a relative clause, while a concessive to a concessive clause.                     
*I couldn't translate "even those who bear gifts", but I could translate "even if they bear gifts"*.

In your example now, if you translate "even foolish ones" , I ' ll agree with you.  But, could you translate "even if they are foolish"? The meaning in the second case is different, and if you inserted a participle , it could be so.


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