# Which Indo-European languages use possessive affixes?



## Encolpius

Good morning, I have been reading an article about possessive affixes in Wikipedia and it says you can find them *also in Indo-European languages*. Do you have any idea or any list of which Indo-European languages, I mean languages spoken with more than 1-5 million people, so not rare languages, use them? Albanian, Basque, Celtic languages, Persian, Sanskrit, etc.  but I am not a linguist, so I have no idea. I have known it is only in Uralic and Semitic languages. Thanks.


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## Awwal12

In Iranian languages there are possessive pronominal affixes attached to nouns, for certain.


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## ahvalj

Curiously, two earliest attested Indo-European languages, Hittite language - Wikipedia and Luwian language - Wikipedia, have a system of possessive affixes. In Hittite it is fully developed in the old language but gets replaced by Genitive of personal pronouns and partly by separate possessive pronouns in the last centuries of the Hittite civilization. Unlike in other language families and in modern Iranic languages, the Hittite system is organized in the most Indo-European way: the fully declinable possessive affixes are added to the fully declinable forms of the nominals, e. g.:
_attas_ "father" (Nom. Sg.) — _attasmis_ "my father" — _attastis_ "your father" — _attassis_ "his father" — _attassummis_ "our father"…
_attan_ "father" (Acc. Sg.) — _attanman_ "my father" — _attantan_ — _attansan_ — _attansumman…
atti_ "to father" (Dat. Sg.) — _attimi_ "to my father" — _attiti_ — _attisi_ — _attisummi…
attiēs_ "fathers" (Nom. Pl.) — _attiēsmis_ "my fathers" — _attiēstes_ — _attiēsses_ — _attiēssummes…
attus_ "fathers" (Acc. Pl.) — _attusmus_ — _attustus_ — _attussus_ — _attussummus…_​
The neuter nouns have special forms in the Nom./Acc.:
_ı̯ugan_ "yoke" — _ı̯uganmet_ "my yoke" — _ı̯ugantet_ — _ı̯uganset_ — _ı̯ugansummet…
_​Among modern languages an independently developed system of invariable possessive pronouns exists e. g. in Persian: Persian grammar - Wikipedia.


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## AndrasBP

*Greek *uses possessive pronouns that are placed after the noun. 
They're written as separate words, but if there was no "space" in writing, perhaps they could be considered affixes:

*το σπίτι μου *(to spiti mu) - my house, lit. "the house my" 



Encolpius said:


> Albanian, Basque, Celtic languages, Persian, Sanskrit, etc.



Basque is not an Indo-European language.


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## fdb

Sanskrit and Avestan also have enclitic genitive and accusative personal pronouns.


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## Awwal12

fdb said:


> Sanskrit and Avestan also have enclitic genitive and accusative personal pronouns.


But enclitic pronouns ≠ possessive affixes. Old Church Slavonic, for instance, also had enclitic pronouns, but those had only accusative and dative forms, thus being fundamentally unable to serve as possessive morphemes.


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## ahvalj

fdb said:


> Sanskrit and Avestan also have enclitic genitive and accusative personal pronouns.


True, and Slavic has them as well, they are inherited, but no attested ancient IE language outside Anatolian has such possessive pronouns.

Cross-post.


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## fdb

ahvalj said:


> no attested ancient IE language outside Anatolian has such possessive pronouns.
> 
> Cross-post.



On the contrary. Sanskrit, Avestan, Old Persian have possessive (genitive) enclitic pronouns.


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## ahvalj

fdb said:


> On the contrary. Sanskrit, Avestan, Old Persian have possessive (genitive) enclitic pronouns.


Mea culpa. I always thought the separate  possessive pronouns were the basic way to express this meaning in ancient Indo-Iranic.


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## fdb

Of course they have both. "Thy" in Sanskrit is independent tava or enclitic te.


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## Perseas

AndrasBP said:


> *Greek *uses possessive pronouns that are placed after the noun.
> They're written as separate words, but if there was no "space" in writing, perhaps they could be considered affixes:
> 
> *το σπίτι μου *(to spiti mu) - my house, lit. "the house my"


The same can be said, e.g. for English: "if there was no space, they could be considered affixes ("myhouse").


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## aefrizzo

"Io, _m*a*mmeta_ e tu"  (Me, your mother and you) is an old song by Modugno, aka "Mister Volare".
_S*o*reta_ (your sister) and _fr*a*teme_ (my brother) are currently used by _Neapolitan_ speaking people.
Bold=stress


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## AndrasBP

Perseas said:


> The same can be said, e.g. for English: "if there was no space, they could be considered affixes ("myhouse").


Yes, that's right. What I (and probably Encolpius) really meant was a *suffix*.


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## myšlenka

Perseas said:


> The same can be said, e.g. for English: "if there was no space, they could be considered affixes ("myhouse").


Except that all adjectives and numerals would have to be considered affixes too ("mythreeredhouses").
Is it possible to have intervening words between the Greek noun and the post-nominal possessive? If not, that might indicate that they should be treated as suffixes.


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## Perseas

myšlenka said:


> Is it possible to have intervening words between the Greek noun and the post-nominal possessive? If not, that might indicate that they should be treated as suffixes.


These forms (μου, σου, του, etc. in genitive and με, σε, τε, etc. in accusative) can be used either as personal or possessive pronouns. As personal pronouns they are placed just before the verb (μου είπες -you told me) and as possessive they are placed just after the noun (σπίτι μου - my house).


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## Encolpius

So, not so many languages, so after all, it is only Iranian languages, Hittite and Luwian.



AndrasBP said:


> Yes, that's right. What I (and probably Encolpius) really meant was a *suffix*.



I mean "háza*m*, háza*d*, ház*a*..."[my house, you house in HUngarian], so maybe possessive suffixes, yes.


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## aefrizzo

aefrizzo said:


> "Io, _màmme*ta*_ e tu"  (Me, your mother and you) is an old song... _Sòre*ta*_ (your sister) and _fràte*me*_ (my brother) are currently used by _Neapolitan_ speaking people.





Encolpius said:


> .... so after all, it is only Iranian languages, Hittite and Luwian.



Beware, Encolpius. So, Neapolitan is not a language? Don't tell them.


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## Encolpius

Sorry, I understood it works only in those words or does it apply to any Neapolitan word?


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## aefrizzo

Actually I don't speak Neapolitan and hardly understand it. Nevertheless some instances (even insulting) are very popular all around Italy, but admittedly just apply to those words I quoted, relevant to the family milieu. Isn't it enough? Are  possessive suffixes expected to apply to everything? Then am I wrong. But how do you explain the Neapolitan case?
  Maybe a native Neapolitan citizen could help.


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## danielstan

Spoken Romanian has similar features with Neapolitan, although they are regarded as non-literary or even vulgar (insulting) way of speech,
used frequently in curses (preferred) or in normal sentences by the low educated people:

_mă-ta _("your mother", literary _mama ta_) - Nominative and Accusative cases
_mă-tii_ ("your mother's/to your mother",  _mamei tale_) - Genitive and Dative
_tac-tu _("your father", _tatăl tău_)
_frate-miu_ ("my brother", _fratele meu_)
_soră-mea_ ("my sister", _sora mea_ - separate words) - Nominative and Accusative
_soră-mii_ ("my sister's/to my syster", _sorei mele_ - separate words) - Genitive and Dative

Although they are spelled in 2 words (which is just an orthograhic convention), these words are pronounced as one.
Such examples are restricted to the family members.


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## AndrasBP

aefrizzo said:


> Are possessive suffixes expected to apply to everything?


Yes.
As a fellow Hungarian, I'm sure that's what Encolpius meant. Hungarian uses possessive suffixes with all nouns and there's no other option.


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## Encolpius

Very interesting Romanian comment indeed. 
But it is not the precise thing I am interested in.


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## Sardokan1.0

aefrizzo said:


> "Io, _m*a*mmeta_ e tu"  (Me, your mother and you) is an old song by Modugno, aka "Mister Volare".
> _S*o*reta_ (your sister) and _fr*a*teme_ (my brother) are currently used by _Neapolitan_ speaking people.
> Bold=stress





danielstan said:


> Spoken Romanian has similar features with Neapolitan, although they are regarded as non-literary or even vulgar (insulting) way of speech,
> used frequently in curses (preferred) or in normal sentences by the low educated people:
> 
> _mă-ta _("your mother", literary _mama ta_) - Nominative and Accusative cases
> _mă-tii_ ("your mother's/to your mother",  _mamei tale_) - Genitive and Dative
> _tac-tu _("your father", _tatăl tău_)
> _frate-miu_ ("my brother", _fratele meu_)
> _soră-mea_ ("my sister", _sora mea_ - separate words) - Nominative and Accusative
> _soră-mii_ ("my sister's/to my syster", _sorei mele_ - separate words) - Genitive and Dative
> 
> Although they are spelled in 2 words (which is just an orthograhic convention), these words are pronounced as one.
> Such examples are restricted to the family members.



Also in *Sardinian *the possessives always and exclusively go behind the subject (but not attached), it's a feature inherited by Latin.

_Mama mea/mia, tua, sua, nostra, bostra, issòro (ipsorum = their) = my, your, his/her, our, your, their
(feminine plurals : mamas meas/mias, tuas, suas, nostras, bostras, issòro)
Babbu meu, tou, sou, nostru, bostru, issòro = my father etc.etc.
(masculine plurals : babbos meos/mios, tuos, suos, nostros, bostros, issòro)
Sorre mea/mia, tua = my sister etc.etc.
Frade meu, tou = my brother etc.etc.
Fradile meu, tou = my cousin (male) etc.etc.
Sorrasta mea/mia, tua = my cousin (female) etc.etc._


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## Encolpius

Does anybody speak Armenian here? Do you know if Armenian has possessive suffixes as well?


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## ahvalj

It has, but in a strange underdeveloped form.

Some details. In Classical Armenian, there were special deictic particles indicating that an action, person or thing is regarded as being in the realm of the first, second or third person, respectively _-s, -d_ and _-n _(from Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ḱe - Wiktionary, Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/só - Wiktionary and Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h₁énos - Wiktionary): e. g. _ordid_ "son at yours" with a possessive pronoun might mean "my son that is at yours" (_ordid im_) and without it simply "your son". In the modern language, _-s_ and _-d_ rather mean possession (_namaks_ "my letter", _namakners_ "my letters/our letter/our letters" as it is ambiguous what exactly gets pluralized by the Plural affix _-ner-_) or enforce the personal reference of the subject (_es usuc'ič's_ "I as a teacher", _es ink's_ "I myself"), and _-n_ has mostly become a definite article.

See here the paradihms:
որդի - Wiktionary
նամակ - Wiktionary


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## Encolpius

Interesting, I know nothing about Armenian, it would be interesting to know if there was any Turkish influence, because I think Farsi was influenced by Arabic, or do you (guys) think those atypical phenomenons are not foreign in those Indo-European languages?


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## ahvalj

Classical Armenian is attested since the 5th century, before any Turkic or Arabian migrations to the region (although other varieties of Semitic were widespread immediately south of the Armenian plateau since long ago of course). Separate systems of personal and deictic affixes existed in the Urartian language - Wikipedia, spoken by the same population that later became known as Armenians, though the details are quite different. Both Armenian and modern Iranic obviously come from the languages imposed by invaders to the overwhelming majority of the local population, so a major substrate influence is more than probable, but the personal affixes are such a regular trait of the human speech that they easily evolve themselves (cp. the Hittite, Neapolitan and Romanian examples above).


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