# refusal to use a particular language



## meeryanah

Hi!

First I'd like to ask you not to get offended...  

I'll talk here about the example that happened to me, though I was warned it could happen. When we were in Barcelona our guide told us the Catalan people were very proud of their language, and though they all knew (or al least uderstand) Spanish, they just wouldn't speak it. 

So, I was trying to buy a soda, and I asked the woman something in weak and shy Spanish, she answered in Catalan. I heard this happens in France too, if you try to speak English, and, ok, people may not know it, but why wouldn't you even bother to try?

Or you would?


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## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator Comment:  To rephrase this question in more general terms (and to avoid the eternal Spanish-Catalan debate), please keep your comments within these parameters:

What is your opinion about situations where people, while able to speak a particular language, refuse to use that language with people who are otherwise unable to communicate?


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## Etcetera

Chaska Ñawi said:


> What is your opinion about situations where people, while able to speak a particular language, refuse to use that language with people who are otherwise unable to communicate?


I find it a bit silly. 
The situation in Ukraine, for example, is said to be much alike the situation in Catalonia, as Meeryanah describes it. There were numerous stories about Ukrainians refusing to answer in Russian... But when I visited Southern Ukraine several years ago, it was absolutely OK. I spoke to people in Russian, and they answered in Russian. No one really bothered about it. Well, I was told that in Kiev and Western Ukraine the situation is quite different, but nevertheless. 
Being proud about your native language is a good thing, undoubtedly - and I've never been able to understand those Italians, for example, who don't want to learn their dialects. But refusing to speak to a person only because you don't like the language they speak... it's plainly rude, I think. And it's no way to gain any respect.


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## maxiogee

Imagine three languages - any three. We'll call them X, Y and Z.
X and Z are internationally known and widely used. Y is a thriving regional language. Hardly known of outside its own locale.

I can understand the refusal to speak a language when there is a political point being made. When, for example, a speaker of X & Y addresses another X & Y speaker in X, knowing that it is a politically offensive thing to do.

However, if a speaker of Z makes a sincere effort to address a speaker of X & Y in X, then I think it is just rude to respond in Y. The Z speaker has declined to use their own language and has endeavoured to communicate. All sincere attempts at communication should be reciprocated, I believe.


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## clairanne

Hi 
Similar things happen in some parts of Wales.  If a holiday maker comes into a pub they start speaking in Welsh.  Personally I think it just shows lack of manners and education.  I can see no reason at all why politics should come into speech, all people should be taken on merit, however they speak and whatever language they speak, or are trying to speak.


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## maxiogee

clairanne said:


> Hi
> Similar things happen in some parts of Wales.  If a holiday maker comes into a pub they start speaking in Welsh.  Personally I think it just shows lack of manners and education.  I can see no reason at all why politics should come into speech, all people should be taken on merit, however they speak and whatever language they speak, or are trying to speak.



Maybe had you experience of political oppression with the 'imposition' of one language and culture over another, then you'd see the political context in which language becomes important.


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## Maxwell Edison

In Spain, which includes Barcelona, you should be able to go everywhere and speak Spanish. In fact it is not true that people in Cataluña doesn't speak Spanish, of course. Spanish is the main language whereas Catalán, although they are proud, is used only sometimes and of course not with people that can't!

Every Spaniard have to be able to speak Spanish (it is in our Constitution).

To sum up, that woman was just a bit stupid.


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## Etcetera

maxiogee said:


> Maybe had you experience of political oppression with the 'imposition' of one language and culture over another, then you'd see the political context in which language becomes important.


It's easily understandable, but why should a nice, friendly person suffer?


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## jonquiliser

I agree, it may be just utterly snobbish or hostile to refuse to speak in a certain language, in cases where it that language is the only one that all involved could use. But I believe more there is very much more involved than snobbishness or arrogance. Usually it is not about situations of just any language in relation to any other language. Rather, there is a history and a situation surrounding the attitudes. Like in the case of Catalan and Ukrainian, mentioned above. English would be another splendid case in point. I imagine people may feel offended that it is always expected of them to be able to speak specific languages: there are many example of English-speaking people going all over the world and expecting to be able always to speak in English, and laughing about natives who speak poor or no English (or even, get offended about it). I guess there are similar cases of Spanish-speaking people, or Russian-speakers, or German-speakers, and so on. In many cases, there is a history of colonisation and oppression, that cannot be ignored just like that. 

I don't agree with "keeping politics out of language", because language is, in a sense, always political. Whether one wants it or not. What language one chooses to speak, what words and styles, what dialects, when and where - it all has a political dimension. We just have to face that, and try to think about what different things this can mean for us and for others...


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## maxiogee

Etcetera said:


> It's easily understandable, but why should a nice, friendly person suffer?





maxiogee said:


> Imagine three languages - any three. We'll call them X, Y and Z.
> X and Z are internationally known and widely used. Y is a thriving regional language. Hardly known of outside its own locale.
> 
> I can understand the refusal to speak a language when there is a political point being made. When, for example, a speaker of X & Y addresses another X & Y speaker in X, knowing that it is a politically offensive thing to do.
> 
> However, if a speaker of Z makes a sincere effort to address a speaker of X & Y in X, then I think it is just rude to respond in Y. The Z speaker has declined to use their own language and has endeavoured to communicate. All sincere attempts at communication should be reciprocated, I believe.


​In my third paragraph, Etcetera, I indicated that they shouldn't suffer.


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## faranji

Same thing tends to happen in the Middle Atlas region of Central Morocco, where you can get torn off a strip in Shilha for humbly trying to get your message across in Standard Arabic. (I strongly advise against counterattacking with the obvious retort _So I understand you don’t appreciate the language of the Prophet, sir?_ as in my experience it only makes things nastier.)

I find it extremely convenient that some people refuse to simply use language as a means of communication and decide to vent their historical grievances on an innocent foreigner asking for a soda. Usually, when travelling or living abroad, it takes a while to tell whether the stranger you just met is a good-natured, intelligent human being, or a despicable moron you wouldn’t wish to talk to ever again. Those people’s giveaway behaviour is such an invaluable help.


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## newzamt

I'll share my own experience: I short while ago I visted a friend of mine in Puerto Rico. Now my friend has lived in Puerto Rico her entire life and therefore has an unmistakeably Puertorican (and rural at that) accent in Spanish. Nonetheless, several times people in touristy areas responded back to her in English after she asked them things in _Spanish_. The worst point came when she was talking to somebody at a shop in Spanish for a couple of minutes and the guy sitting next to us the whole time then asked her if he could help her, _in English_. It seems as though some people consider her too pale to be from there and so they treat her like a foreigner.


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## Nanon

This is what happened to me...
A group of American tourists wanted to ask me how to get to, well, some place. It was about 8 pm and they probably had been facing such refusals all day long. So when they came close to me, the very first thing they said was: _"You *don't* speak English, do you?" _
I went totally speechless for a couple of seconds ...
Then, of course, I smiled, and I replied politely, and these people were so pleased...


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## JamesM

Chaska Ñawi said:


> Moderator Comment: To rephrase this question in more general terms (and to avoid the eternal Spanish-Catalan debate), please keep your comments within these parameters:
> 
> What is your opinion about situations where people, while able to speak a particular language, refuse to use that language with people who are otherwise unable to communicate?


 
I imagine it's only human.    Everyone has their own level of reserves of patience.  For some it's deeper than others.  I ran into only one person during a week's trip to France who was overbearing and critical of my attempts to speak French, even though I was doing my best, and not badly for my first day in a foreign land.  She spoke English, badly, but refused to speak it with me.

I watched her for a few minutes and noticed that she was equally overbearing toward, and critical of, her fellow Frenchmen and _their_ French. I was amazed!  Every miscommunication (and there were several while I watched) was chalked up to the customer's inability to speak decent French.   I concluded that it had nothing to do with my French, and everything to do with her personality... or perhaps her hearing.


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## Thomas Tompion

What is your opinion about situations where people, while able to speak a particular language, refuse to use that language with people who are otherwise unable to communicate?


I live in France, and my French is fluent but not always accurate. The country people pull faces of incomprehension at me because of my accent, but, these days, make few allowances, knowing that I'll ask them if they use an outlandish expression which is new to me. Sometimes I produce a malapropism so outrageous as to provoke general mirth, and they know I enjoy the joke as much as they do.


Like several other contributors to this thread I sometimes find myself addressed, by people who have recognized my accent, in English and sometimes in very bad English too. I regard this as bad manners, as it seems like an implied criticism of my French, and I'm sometimes sharp with people I don't know who do this, asking them such things as if they think their English is better than my French. I'm not proud of it, but I find their attitude discourteous. If I'm asked, as often happens, in dreadful French, by English people, for directions, I usually ask them in French if they'd prefer an answer in French or English, and leave the choice of language to them. I have some French friends whose English is strong and we talk either in English or French depending on who starts how - sometimes we switch in the middle spontaneously.

So I have strong views about the correct conventions about what language to speak when.

A person who deliberately refuses to use a language which he knows he has in common with someone else *who is otherwise unable to communicate,* is behaving despicably, and I would be half way to despising him. I suppose I would consider his motivation: about three people I have met have denounced me as an Englishman on the grounds that all the _emmerdements _in French history have stemmed from the English, and I've preferred to talk to other people, rather than press the rival claims of, say, the Russian winter.

The truth is that wherever you go you do meet people who are limited and warped and tortured and resentful, and some of them will enjoy being disagreeable. Some of them, as Max may be implying, may have deep-seated and justified resentments against people of a certain nationality, which might explain their behaviour. The truth is also that I'm often surprised at the enormous kindness and generosity of complete strangers all over the world, particularly in country areas.

I hope, James, that when you are next in the South of France, should you come to this village, you will find yourself treated with the exemplary courtesy and respect which we like to show visitors: of whatever nationality, whatever language they care to speak to us. It's largely because I enjoy a combination of this generosity of spirit, with the characteristic directness of the gallic character, that I chose to come to live here. And I've not been disappointed.


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## ireney

> Like several other contributors to this thread I sometimes find myself addressed, by people who have recognized my accent, in English and sometimes in very bad English too. I regard this as bad manners, as it seems like an implied criticism of my French, and I'm sometimes sharp with people I don't know who do this, asking them such things as if they think their English is better than my French. I'm not proud of it, but I find their attitude discourteous.



Perhaps they are actually trying to be more helpful? They don't really know you nor do they give you, as I understand it, an impromptu language test and are therefore not really familiar with the level of your French so I think it's just (in some cases at least) an effort to facilitate things by speaking at your native language.
That's what different perspective means I guess  Since my French is in a deplorable state my French cousins will try switching to English to help things along (Greek is out of the question) although their English actually hamper any effort to discuss things. I have always thought (and in fact I am sure) they do it to help me without thinking their English is superior to my French.

Anyway, coming from a country where nobody really expects people who visit to know the native language I cannot say I can really understand people who will act this way. Political or not it's plain rude.


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## clairanne

hi

_Maybe had you experience of political oppression with the 'imposition' of one language and culture over another, then you'd see the political context in which language becomes important._

Yes I am lucky not to live with political oppression, but as long as intelligent people continue to feel it is important to carry on with this "tribalism" how can we all expect to live at peace with each other. 
I think the balkans trouble is a very good example of this.  People lived together for 40 or more years and went to the same schools, their kids played together etc but as soon as the common enemy had gone they started picking on each other.  They all have _valid ! _reasons for this but the outcome is the same- people hate and kill each other.- Do we really need to continue with this in the 21st century. 
We should learn from each other and not worry that the language is not quite correct or the accent is wrong.   I go to music summer school every year where there are people from all over the world and we all seem to manage very well.  The people who want to practise their english do so and people who want to practise other languages get given the same courtesy.


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## ernest_

meeryanah said:


> First I'd like to ask you not to get offended...


 
I'll try, but I'm not promising anything.



> I'll talk here about the example that happened to me, though I was warned it could happen. When we were in Barcelona our guide told us the Catalan people were very proud of their language, and though they all knew (or al least uderstand) Spanish, they just wouldn't speak it.


I don't know where your guide got this idea, but it's far from realistic. I know nobody round here that do not speak Spanish every now and then. In fact many Catalan speakers seem reluctant to speak Catalan to unknown people; a lot of them will try Spanish first. To illustrate what I'm trying say, I bought a second-hand motor a few weeks ago, and all the phone talking with the seller was in Spanish. It was not until we met face to face that we realised we both were Catalan speakers and began to speak Catalan.



> So, I was trying to buy a soda, and I asked the woman something in weak and shy Spanish, she answered in Catalan. I heard this happens in France too, if you try to speak English, and, ok, people may not know it, but why wouldn't you even bother to try?


I don't know. It may be that some people really refuse to speak a particular language, but what you describe here does not look like refusal to me. I mean, if you had asked a person specifically to talk to you in a particular language, and this person being able to speak that langage had chosen not to do so, then that would be refusal.


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## panjabigator

I am very excited to see what my Catalan reactions will be.  Everyone seems to have very polar ideas about language usage in Catalonia, so this September when I go to Vic, I'll let everyone know for certain!  I definitely have very Indian features (skin color) so I'm very interested to know if I will get more Spanish than Catalan.


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## Cecilio

panjabigator said:


> I am very excited to see what my Catalan reactions will be.  Everyone seems to have very polar ideas about language usage in Catalonia, so this September when I go to Vic, I'll let everyone know for certain!  I definitely have very Indian features (skin color) so I'm very interested to know if I will get more Spanish than Catalan.



Vic is not the same as Barcelona, I can tell you that. Barcelona is a very big city where a lot of people speak Spanish all the time whereas Vic is a small town where basically everybody speaks Catalan all the time.

In any case, I think that regarding this issue of "refusing to speak a given language" there are a lot of urban myths. People tell personal anecdotes and these anecdotes become widespread and common lore. I think there's a lot of exxageration in all this, and the facts are far from being as dramatic as some people insist on portraying them.

As we say in Spanish: "Se hace una montaña de un granito de arena".


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## meeryanah

> I don't know. It may be that some people really refuse to speak a particular language, but what you describe here does not look like refusal to me. I mean, if you had asked a person specifically to talk to you in a particular language, and this person being able to speak that langage had chosen not to do so, then that would be refusal.


 
How's that not a refusal if I first asked her in quite pathetic Spanish? How is that implying I know Catalan?


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## faranji

It was a complete refusal, meeryanah. From your 'weak and shy' Spanish that women knew perfectly well you didn't know Catalan either.

The curious thing here is that the woman's behaviour wasn't only churlish but terminally stupid as well. I understand you were trying to buy something from her. That's not exactly what I call building up a loyal customer base.


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## xarruc

The stories of "I was on holiday and I used my best French/German/Welsh to ask for something and they pretended not to understand/ answered in my mother language." are two-a-penny.

It is not always a political statement on their part. 

One. The main reason is probably that your French/German/Welsh was not good enough. It happens all the time. People can get A* in their French GCSE and still be un-understandable to a native. There is a lot of hubris surrounding languages and people can be very proud, too proud, of their acquired proficiency. I work with Catalans professionally working all-day in written English that still come out with horrendous phrases or unintelligable babbling when speaking. If I speak better Spanish than your English I will talk to you in Spanish. 

Two. I may be studying your language and I want to practise it. If I am a bullish person, and there are hundreds of them around, I will dominate.

Three. I may not want to speak to you. I had a friend who, as a museum guide wore a badged blazer to work. He said he had to stop wearing it because tourists, particularly Americans, would single him out for directions and advice when he was on his lunch break, travelling to work etc. I too have (only occasionally, honest!) replied "no" to the all too frequent question "perdón-o, habla-too englesa?". I have a life outside of aiding tourists struggling to find the Sagrada Familia (Yes tonto it's *that* big f**king monstrosity there, Yes it *was* Gaudi who built it, No I don't want to take your photo."




> I'll talk here about the example that happened to me, though I was warned it could happen. When we were in Barcelona our guide told us the Catalan people were very proud of their language, and though they all knew (or al least uderstand) Spanish, they just wouldn't speak it.


 
Sadly this *is* a common occurance in Barcelona. For some people Catalan is their mother language, Spanish is not. There is a certain amount of irritation that they are constantly expected to converse in what is, likewise to them, a foreign language, especially by people ignorant of that fact. In addition there is a strong feeling in general that there is a battle to be fought regarding the culture of the rest of Spain and of Cataluña, which at times can bubble over into rudeness and bias. It is a hyper-politicized arena and people take it *very* seriously. Of course to external bystanders it is easy to see the nonsense involved, what is much harder to appreciate is the sense involved.




> I don't know where your guide got this idea, but it's far from realistic. I know nobody round here that do not speak Spanish every now and then. In fact many Catalan speakers seem reluctant to speak Catalan to unknown people; a lot of them will try Spanish first


 
Sadly this too is all too common. It is very hard for learners of Catalan. In fact I still speak to all "serving" staff (Waiters, bartenders, shopkeepers etc.) in Spanish out of the constant negative reinforcement of being answered in Spanish or pitiful English. I have a friend who is fluent in Catalan but speaks little Spanish who struggles with this on a daily basis. That you can speak your mother tongue in your mother country is something most people can take for granted.


In short, don't be too harsh on people who haven't the patience or inclination to wade through your attempt to speak their language. We are not all language-lovers.

Don't judge people too harshly for manifestations of personal political prejudice - as I said it is hyper-politicized and for many people brought up admidst one rhetoric or the other there is no sitting on the fence.


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## Vagabond

Personal experience: I visited northern Italy a while ago. It was a city outside Venice, and almost everyone expected us to speak Italian. Now, I do speak some Italian, so it was not a big issue for me, but we were a big group of tourists, and most people did not. You'd speak in English, they'd reply in Italian. You'd speak in French, they'd reply in Italian. Many of them even knew some Greek (of course I wouldn't expect people to talk to me in Greek), but it was always Italian they would reply in. 

Personally, I don't get it. Even the receptionist in our hotel would refuse to speak any other language than Italian, which seemed extremely strange to me, seeing that hotels thrive on tourism. They would prefer to do gestures and signals than to speak in any other language.

I think it is a good thing to be proud of your culture and to not give up on your language; however, a language is not threatened by tourists who don't happen to speak it. For me, to expect everyone to speak your language and to refuse to address them in a vastly known and understood language (like English), is quite arrogant. It is like making a statement that your own language should be the lingua franca, and whoever disagrees might as well get the hell out of your country. Hostile. Not good.


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## maskedmesothorium

I was in France last summer. Every single person I spoke to in Paris would reply in English, which was surprising. My parents, who had visited about 15 years ago, agreed that people were a lot friendlier and open in the city than then their last visit. When I ended up lost in the far west suburbs though, I tried to ask for directions in english and the pâtisserie owner and a younger customer responded with bewildered looks. Fortunately I was able to get my point across with my pitiful french accent and we made it to the metro. Part of the problem was that she didn't believe we were looking for the metro, since it was over 2 km away... So no, I've yet to run into that problem, everyone in Paris was nicer than expected.

And of course EVERYONE in Amsterdam speaks english. I couldn't believe it when we went on a tour of the ajax stadium that they gave the whole tour in english (because it was the commong language, I guess).

e


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## Etcetera

Vagabond said:


> I think it is a good thing to be proud of your culture and to not give up on your language; however, a language is not threatened by tourists who don't happen to speak it. For me, to expect everyone to speak your language and to refuse to address them in a vastly known and understood language (like English), is quite arrogant. It is like making a statement that your own language should be the lingua franca, and whoever disagrees might as well get the hell out of your country. Hostile. Not good.


And will a person who received such a warm "welcome" ever want to return to this country?


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## chics

meeryanah said:


> When we were in Barcelona our guide told us the Catalan people were very proud of their language, and though they all knew (or al least uderstand) Spanish, they just wouldn't speak it.
> 
> So, I was trying to buy a soda, and I asked the woman something in weak and shy Spanish, she answered in Catalan. I heard this happens in France too, if you try to speak English, and, ok, people may not know it, but why wouldn't you even bother to try?


 
This is not true.

You only have had so bad luck... first meeting a stupid bad guide telling lies against the people who gives her work -at least- and, after, you founded a person whith a bizare attitude as well. Maybe your Spanish was as bas she couldn't understand it, so, unkown language for unknown language, she choosed the better for her.

As that guide had tell you lies, you found this rare event as something ordinary, but it isn't. Most of people will talk to you (as a foreigner) in English, or they will be glad of practising any other language, yours or any other -a third- who allow you comunicate: Spanish, French, etc.

The same in France. There happen the opposite of what you said. When you talk to them in a bad French, they will talk to you in English... often a worse English that you French!


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## chics

xarruc said:


> The stories of "I was on holiday and I used my best French/German/Welsh to ask for (...)
> 
> Don't judge people too harshly for manifestations of personal political prejudice - as I said it is hyper-politicized and for many people brought up admidst one rhetoric or the other there is no sitting on the fence.


 
I agree completely with Xarruc.

I understand there are people who want to practise languages when going out, but natives are not full-time not-payed teachers, more when they need a so strong effort to understand a tourist.

Spanish people don't find cool -but silly- a foreigner who address to them saying "Andele señorita, paela, sangría, toros" to show they know words in Spanish. 

Catalan people don't find cool -but silly- a foreigner who address to them saying "paela, toros, olé" to show they know words in Spanish and they don't even suspect that Catalan language exists. I'm sure it happens in everywhere in the world, for example if I go to Romania and I speak some silly words in Italian to show how cool I am with Romanians, that I tell them _things_ in their language.


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## meeryanah

chics said:


> You only have had so bad luck... first meeting a stupid bad guide telling lies against the people who gives her work -at least- and, after, you founded a person whith a bizare attitude as well. Maybe your Spanish was as bas she couldn't understand it, so, unkown language for unknown language, she choosed the better for her.


 
First, how can you call stupid a man who's just warning us of a widespread rumour?
And second, 'De que está este zumo?' how bad could it be, if my accent is, well, you wouldn't say I'd come from Madrid, but I certanly don't sound like an American.


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## meeryanah

I was thinking of a possible situation where something like this could happen to me. 
Being a south Slav I could imagine myself being asked for something in Serbian or Slovenian, and replying in Croatian, not even thinking of a possibility of answering differently.
Then again, I don't know if Catalans think they're easily understood by the Spanish.


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## alexacohen

Chics:
You may think Meeryanah spoke Spanish so badly nobody understood.
But the same happened to me. And I am a Spaniard. When we checked in at the camping site, the janitor or whoever he was answered each and every one of our questions in catalán (and don't tell me he couldn't understand Spanish). They didn't even have a form in Spanish.
When we went to the mini market afterwards, the woman at the cashier refused plainly to speak with us in Spanish. 
We left our shopping on the counter and left. 


> you found a person whith a bizarre attitude as well. Maybe your Spanish was as bad she couldn't understand it, so, unkown language for unknown language, she chose the better for her.


Well, I chose the better for me. We left Barcelona right away and went to Valencia, ¡Y olé! 
Alexa


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## Sepia

You said it! A lot of the things being told are really myths - and often prejudices that lead people to see exactly what they expect to see. What the French are concerned, I have never experienced anyone refusing to speak English if they really could speak English. However, it is only within the past 10-15 years that a really vast number of them speak English really well. 

What has surprised me, though, is the arrogant answer I have had from more than one Spanish Castellano-teacher when I asked them if they could also any one of the regional languages - a sort of "of-course-not-for-what-use-should-I?" tone of voice. I found that very strange because where I come from (German-Danish border region) a good deal of bi-lingualism is commonplace and here in Hamburg I have occasionally had a short chat with Federal Police officers in Danish - officers who were not Danish native speakers but hat been stationed at the Northern border in the pre Single Market era.


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## chics

meeryanah said:


> 'De que está este zumo?'


 
Ein???


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## Cnaeius

Vagabond said:


> Personal experience: I visited northern Italy a while ago. It was a city outside Venice, and almost everyone expected us to speak Italian. Now, I do speak some Italian, so it was not a big issue for me, but we were a big group of tourists, and most people did not. You'd speak in English, they'd reply in Italian. You'd speak in French, they'd reply in Italian. Many of them even knew some Greek (of course I wouldn't expect people to talk to me in Greek), but it was always Italian they would reply in.
> 
> Personally, I don't get it. Even the receptionist in our hotel would refuse to speak any other language than Italian, which seemed extremely strange to me, seeing that hotels thrive on tourism. They would prefer to do gestures and signals than to speak in any other language.
> 
> I think it is a good thing to be proud of your culture and to not give up on your language .....


 
Sorry, if there is a thing you will not find in Italy, it is the proud of speaking our language so that we wouldn't reply in the language people address us, if we know it. If we wouldn't reply it is because we actually don't know that language sufficiently. And this is the problem in Italy: a very bad knowledge of languages. So your experience seems a misunderstanding or an exception. Do you think that one uses gestures instead of using the specific language, if he knows it?


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## alexacohen

Chics:
After reading my first post, I realized that it might sound insulting to a Catalonian. It was not my intention. But it is true that this I-don't-want-to-speak-any-other-language-but-my-own is becoming more and more common. I used to work at one international airport in Galicia. Three of my colleagues refused point blank to speak any other language but Galician. I do not want to dwell on political circumstances long past. But it was plain rudeness to answer bewildered strangers who spoke Spanish in Galician. And I'm not talking about Brits asking for "toros y paela", but about Argentinians, Mexicans, Peruvians, who all spoke Spanish (with a slightly different accent, true, but Spanish). I met the parents and sisters of one of these "Galician-only" speakers. They spoke Spanish. So it was by her own decision that she was rude and bad mannered. And she was there to help people!
Once she was asked very politely by a newcomer (from Barcelona, by the way) to speak Español. The catalonian girl couln't understand Galician. She refused. That's bad manners and unpolite, and nothing else.
And Chics, I understand perfectly well what Meeryanah was asking. 
Bad Spanish, true, but understanable. Unless you don't want to understand. 
Alexa


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## heidita

clairanne said:


> Hi
> Similar things happen in some parts of Wales. If a holiday maker comes into a pub they start speaking in Welsh. Personally I think it just shows lack of manners and education. I can see no reason at all why politics should come into speech, all people should be taken on merit, however they speak and whatever language they speak, or are trying to speak.


 
I agree with you, clair. Though it does come into the debate in Catalonia all the time. 

It doesn't though, in my experience in the Basque land. I went there once on holidays and entered a shop to buy something. The women who must have thought I was basque, lots of fair and blue-eyed people around in the basque land, addressed me in Basque. I answered in Spanish and she immediately change to Spanish. No problem at all. 

It does to a lesser extent even happen in Germany. Bavarian is not considered a language, but I myself cannot understand when people speak among them. So invariably I have to ask them to speak "Hochdeutsch". Some get "offended" and simply don't answer.


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## heidita

chics said:


> Ein???


 


> Hasta donde yo lo entiendo


 


alexacohen said:


> Chics:
> And Chics, I understand perfectly well what Meeryanah was asking.
> Bad Spanish, true, but understanable. Unless you don't want to understand.
> Alexa


 
Yo también, chics. No es razonable nunca hacer que no se entiende. Siempre se debe hacer no sólo lo posible sino lo _imposible _para entender o hacerse entender. Todo ese tema es pura política en mi humilde opinión.

MI marido va con frecuencia a Barcelona y no le ha pasado nunca, por cierto. En mi último viaje con él, a mí tampoco. Sin embargo, hay que tener en cuenta, y se ve en algunas de las respuestas con lo que les ha pasado a la gente, que gente estúpida la hay por todas partes.


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## Vagabond

Cnaeius said:


> Sorry, if there is a thing you will not find in Italy, it is the proud of speaking our language so that we wouldn't reply in the language people address us, if we know it. If we wouldn't reply it is because we actually don't know that language sufficiently. And this is the problem in Italy: a very bad knowledge of languages. So your experience seems a misunderstanding or an exception. Do you think that one uses gestures instead of using the specific language, if he knows it?


I apologise if I sounded that this was the case in general in Italy - it was not. In Venice, people were happy if you spoke Italian, but if you did not, they would try in English (as a matter of fact, they spoke English quite well). I see you are from Verona, well in Verona as well, we had no problem at all - people glad if you spoke Italian, otherwise they would speak in English or French, or if they were not that good at it, they would at least try. Or they would just say they couldn't understand and look confused, so you could go into the gesture thing yourself if you didn't speak Italian. They would most certainly try to help though.

The problem was just in this one city, outside Venice (more like a suburb perhaps?), but I am afraid I don't remember the name  They could understand perfectly well, trust me. They knew exactly what you asked, because they would reply - in Italian. And a receptionist in a fancy hotel, I am sure he spoke some foreign language... we even faced the situation where a cashier in a tourist shop started yelling to one member of my group in Italian out of the blue, as I understood he thought she had misplaced some product, she couldn't understand a word and tried to ask what the problem was in English but he'd still go at it. I was so pissed off, that when I got to the cashier, I kept on addressing him in Greek. Surprise surprise, he knew exactly what I asked and replied in Italian (I wasn't expecting him to understand me in Greek, to be honest).

But just because I might have sounded more negative than I intended, let me clarify: I had an amazing time in Italy and I loved the people in almost all places I visited, because they were friendly and accommodating and helpful. I have mostly good memories and I will go back first chance; but I will never, ever go back to that one city.


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## alexacohen

Sepia said:


> .
> 
> I found that very strange because where I come from (German-Danish border region) a good deal of bi-lingualism is commonplace


An where I come from (the Portuguese-Spanish border) is exactly the same. Both languages are used at both sides of the the border by both native Spaniards and native Portuguese. 
I don't find strange that a Spaniard does not choose to learn any other of the languages spoken in Spain and chooses English, German, French as second language instead. Simply because speaking any of them  would give him/her the possibility of being understood in many more countries than if he/she chose to study Basque.
Alexa


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## chics

heidita said:


> Yo también, chics. No es razonable nunca hacer que no se entiende. Siempre se debe hacer no sólo lo posible sino lo _imposible _para entender o hacerse entender. Todo ese tema es pura política en mi humilde opinión.


 
Buenas tardes.

Respecto a la frase en castellano, no es grosería ni nada, de verdad no la he entendido. No sabía si se refería a una frase referente al discurso o bien a la que dijo en ese momento, luego (he estado toda mi pausa del mediodía dándole vueltas) he caído en que se refería a la frase que dijo:
_De qué está este zumo? _

Supongo que, o bien pide el precio, o bien le falta un "hecho" y pregunta de qué está hecho un zumo, por jemplo, de frutas que tiene delante. Si pronunció _sumo_, entonces un de que está este máximo puede perder a cualquiera, así en caliente, si no le viene a la cabeza la imagen de un luchador oriental...

Vosotras lo habeis entendido. Yo francamente no, y no era por polemizar. O sí, ahora, pero me ha costado. Siendo más torpe que vosotras en esto, puedo compreder que haya en el mundo alguien como yo y que en el momento no le entienda.


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## papillon

meeryanah said:


> So, I was trying to buy a soda, and I asked the woman something in weak and shy Spanish, she answered in Catalan.



First I'd like to ask you not to get offended...   this is is probably a stupid question on my part, but I just have to ask: are you sure she answered in Catalan? As I understand from your post (forgive me if I'm wrong), your Spanish is at the beginners level, and your Catalan is non-existent... Well, to an uninitiated person the languages sound very similar, and a foreigner may not be able to tell right away which language is being spoken. In the beginning, I had to listen for at least a minute before being able to tell Catalan from Castellano...


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## meeryanah

Well, a good one papillon... 
It feels wonderfull when you're planning to dedicate a lifetime to spanish, and people are warning you thet you don't know how to form a single line, but nevermind that, I'll learn once.
Anyway, maybe I don't know how to speak it, but I'm quite sure when I hear it, and this wasn't it! Besides, the woman was yelling!


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## meeryanah

For all of you from Barcelona... our hotel was in Carrer Ferran, and when you go across the square, who's name I forgot, in the oposite direction of Rambla, there's the street. Some FCB Official store is also there at the beginig of the street! The woman was selling natural juice, and making it right there, mixing fresh fruit, for five euros a cup, so I asked her from what was the red one made....
You're way too harsh to someone who likes Catalonia this much!


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## meeryanah

One more thing!
How would you ask it? What's this juice made of? In Spanish!


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## Athaulf

meeryanah said:


> Well, a good one papillon...
> It feels wonderfull when you're planning to dedicate a lifetime to spanish, and people are warning you thet you don't know how to form a single line, but nevermind that, I'll learn once.
> Anyway, maybe I don't know how to speak it, but I'm quite sure when I hear it, and this wasn't it! Besides, the woman was yelling!



Well, I'm also a Croatian who speaks some not too terribly good Spanish, and if I heard a few quickly spoken sentences in some non-standard variety of Spanish (which means that I would likely be unable to understand them), I probably wouldn't be able to tell for sure whether it's Spanish or Catalan (or some other closely related language). Try listening to a short sample of Catalan, for example, here. If you heard this text in an unknown context, would you bet your life that it's not actually some dialectal Spanish? And then consider that the speech of an ice-cream vendor would likely be much faster, less clear, and more dialectal. 

(Note to Spanish/Catalan native speakers: I'm not implying any statements about your languages above -- merely describing how things look like from the perspective of a Croatian speaker with some basic knowledge of Spanish and a zero knowledge of Catalan.)

As for being rude and yelling, well, don't tell me you've never experienced such behavior from retail workers in Croatia...


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## ernest_

Athaulf said:


> Well, I'm also a Croatian who speaks some not too terribly good Spanish, and if I heard a few quickly spoken sentences in some non-standard variety of Spanish (which means that I would likely be unable to understand them), I probably wouldn't be able to tell for sure whether it's Spanish or Catalan (or some other closely related language).



I can back that up right enough. I was talking to an exchange student lassie from South America, and she told me the trouble she had understanding our spoken Spanish, to an extent that on one occasion she thought the teacher was speaking Catalan when he was actually speaking Spanish. Even I sometimes don't know whether someone is speaking Catalan or Spanish; there are short simple phrases that are almost identical and you've got to have a very fine hearing to tell which language it is.


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## ernest_

meeryanah said:


> One more thing!
> How would you ask it? What's this juice made of? In Spanish!



I'd say: _De qué es este zumo?
_Phonetically: 'de 'ke 'es 'es te 'θu mo


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## xarruc

> she thought the teacher was speaking Catalan when he was actually speaking Spanish.


 
In my experience it's common for learners of Spanish to assume anything they don't understand is in Catalan - often its not.


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## panjabigator

ernest_ said:


> I can back that up right enough. I was talking to an exchange student lassie from South America, and she told me the trouble she had understanding our spoken Spanish, to an extent that on one occasion she thought the teacher was speaking Catalan when he was actually speaking Spanish. Even I sometimes don't know whether someone is speaking Catalan or Spanish; there are short simple phrases that are almost identical and you've got to have a very fine hearing to tell which language it is.



I have thought about the same thing.  Cuando la gente me dice "que tal" no sabre que idioma debo usar...


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## ernest_

panjabigator said:


> I have thought about the same thing.  Cuando la gente me dice "que tal" no sabre que idioma debo usar...



You can use whichever you want, really. A lot of people use Spanish all of the time and a lot of people use Catalan all of the time. There are conversations in which everybody speaks a different language, it's no problem.


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## heidita

ernest_ said:


> I can back that up right enough. I was talking to an exchange student lassie from South America, and she told me the trouble she had understanding our spoken Spanish, to an extent that on one occasion she thought the teacher was speaking Catalan when he was actually speaking Spanish. Even I sometimes don't know whether someone is speaking Catalan or Spanish; there are short simple phrases that are almost identical and you've got to have a very fine hearing to tell which language it is.


 

This is of course possible. Even though..there are some extreme cases when people are absolutely unreasonable.
I mentioned the thread to one of my students who told me a story which only very recently happened to her sister.
She was waiting for her plane to leave in the Barcelona airport. The plane was delayed so they announced this delay in Catalán and...English!!! Not in Spanish! The sister was aware of the change because her friend spoke English!
I think this is not only unreasonable but unacceptable. The airline was Iberia.

So I can say these things do happen, but might add that they are quite unusual.


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## ernest_

heidita said:


> This is of course possible. Even though..there are some extreme cases when people are absolutely unreasonable.
> I mentioned the thread to one of my students who told me a story which only very recently happened to her sister.
> She was waiting for her plane to leave in the Barcelona airport. The plane was delayed so they announced this delay in Catalán and...English!!! Not in Spanish! The sister was aware of the change because her friend spoke English!
> I think this is not only unreasonable but unacceptable. The airline was Iberia.



They didn't make the announcement in Spanish? Oh, my horror! 

Look, I worked in the airport for three months, there are flashing screens all round and announcments are repeated ad nauseam in Spanish and bad English. Catalan is rarely used.

I think that many people came here with their minds already made up based on the horrific things they've heard, and they expect to see things. And when you expect to see something, you'll see it regardless of whether it really happens or not.


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## Primal

It's funny that in Québec it's the exact opposite: If you try and speak French to someone, say at a restaurant, and your French isn't the greatest, they will try and speak English back to you, even if their English is just as bad as your French.


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## Chaska Ñawi

We seem to be back in Catalan and Spanish again, in spite of this request in Post Two:



> Moderator Comment: To rephrase this question in more general terms (and to avoid the eternal Spanish-Catalan debate), please keep your comments within these parameters:
> 
> What is your opinion about situations where people, while able to speak a particular language, refuse to use that language with people who are otherwise unable to communicate?



This thread is now closed.


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