# All IIR Languages: miyaaN, miyaan



## Wolverine9

Using QP saahib's suggestion, I decided to post this enquiry here as a supplement to the original discussion on the etymology forum, which you can find here.

In Urdu, miyaaN is used as a respectful term, equivalent to "sir, mister", while miyaan means "middle, waist".  Are both of these forms or meanings present in Farsi (as spoken in Iran, Afghanistan, or Central Asia)?  Does miyaan have any other meaning or connotation in Farsi?

Is miyaaN used in any other Indo-Iranian language besides Urdu?


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## UrduMedium

miyaaN also means husband in Urdu. I don't think there's any link between miyaaN and miyaan. But let's hear from our respected colleagues.


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## lcfatima

There is the MiyaaN (commonly transliterated as Mian in English orthography)  Arain caste in Pakistani Punjab also.


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> Is miyaaN used in any other Indo-Iranian language besides Urdu?


You will surely be aware of its usage in Punjabi, Hindi and Nepalese! I believe Bengali has it too.


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## Qureshpor

Apart from the various usages of "miyaaN" in Urdu that have already been provided in the other thread, "miyaaNRe" is a term used for that community of people in the Punjab who, as their means of livlihood, have traditionally taught children to read the Qur'an. 

Then there is the phrase "Allah MiyaaN". Interestingly, we don't have "Xudaa MiyaaN" or any other word for God-MiyaaN!

Wolverine9, it might be worth copy pasting here Treaty's reply from the other thread (Post 25).

In the well-known Punjabi love story (Heer) by a Sufi poet Waris Shah (1722-1798), after stating the reasons behind his composing this work, the author begins the story in the opening lines with the praise of God..The  refrain (in the style of a Ghazal) is the word "miyaaN".

avval Hamd xudaa daa vird kiije, 3ishq kiitaa suu jag daa muul, *miyaaN*
pahlaaN aap hii rab ne 3ishq kiitaa, te ma3shuuq e Nabii-Rasuul, *miyaaN
*
First, let us repeatedly praise God since love was the cause of his creation*, sir*
It was God Himself, who first fell in love and the Prophet was his beloved, *sir*


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## greatbear

miyaaN is indeed the Urdu equivalent of Hindi "shrii"; however, "miyaaN" itself is used in Hindi, though the "sir, mister" meaning is the least-utilised one as far as Hindi is concerned. The three most widespread usages of "miyaaN" in Hindi are:

(1) Husband, a meaning which also seems to be present in Urdu (see post 2).
(2) Buddy. For example, someone saying to his friend: "Are miyaaN, kahaaN chale?"
(3) Anyone Muslim. For example, "vahaaN miyaaN log rehte haiN" (this meaning is in several Indian languages, not just Hindi). "miyaaN" in this sense can be either noun or adjective.


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## Wolverine9

^ Despite the dubious etymological connection to mitra, it is interesting to note that one of the meanings is buddy.

Here are two of Treaty's informative posts:


Treaty said:


> I think it is reasonable to think _miyaan _as  teacher is related to being a medium (middle) between heavenly  knowledge and students. This belief (that you need a mediator) is very  popular among Shia muslims and sufis (and as far as I know among some  Hindu and Buddhist sects).





Treaty said:


> As a Persian speaker, I've never  seen any other usage. Of course, there are metaphoric usage like  "disturbing/fixing people's _miyan"_ in which _miyan_ refers to relationship or _miyan-bor _(shortcut) which refers to removing what's in between and make it direct. There is also the cognate _meidan _which means square (plaza), that actually refers to what happens or build in the middle of the square.


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## Qureshpor

I just wish to comment concerning the first of Treaty's posts. My personal experience is not indicative of use of "miyaaN" as a teacher being especially common/popular amongst Shias (or Sufis).



Wolverine9 said:


> ^ Despite the dubious etymological connection to mitra, it is interesting to note that one of the meanings is buddy.


In the sentence "are miyaaN, kahaaN chale?", I personally would n't equate "miyaaN" with "buddy". For example, I don't believe we would/could say, "vuh meraa miyaaN hai" (He is my buddy).


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## Wolverine9

QURESHPOR said:


> I just wish to comment concerning the first of Treaty's posts. My personal experience is not indicative of use of "miyaaN" as a teacher being especially common/popular amongst Shias (or Sufis).


.

Perhaps it used to be more common.  Platts lists miyaaN-jii as "school master" i.e. teacher, so it could've been more prevalent in the 19th century.  I just noticed another meaning of miyaaN-jii is "a go-between" i.e. mediator, a definition connected to the Persian miyaanjii.



QURESHPOR said:


> In the sentence "are miyaaN, kahaaN chale?", I personally would n't equate "miyaaN" with "buddy". For example, I don't believe we would/could say, "vuh meraa miyaaN hai" (He is my buddy).



Would it be roughly equivalent to janaab or saahib instead?


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## Aryamp

Wolverine9 said:


> In Urdu, miyaaN is used as a respectful term, equivalent to "sir, mister", while miyaan means "middle, waist". Are both of these forms or meanings present in Farsi (as spoken in Iran, Afghanistan, or Central Asia)? Does miyaan have any other meaning or connotation in Farsi?
> 
> Is miyaaN used in any other Indo-Iranian language besides Urdu?




Miyaan in Farsi spoken in Iran does not mean 'Sir, Mister'   but indeed it means 'middle , between' and also 'waist - specially in literature and archaic usage'.

In colloquial speech 'miaayand = they come'    is  pronounced like 'miyaan'  but it's a different word  just similar pronunciation.


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## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 said:


> .
> 
> Perhaps it used to be more common.  Platts lists miyaaN-jii as "school master" i.e. teacher, so it could've been more prevalent in the 19th century.  I just noticed another meaning of miyaaN-jii is "a go-between" i.e. mediator, a definition connected to the Persian miyaanjii.


miyaaN is no less prevalent now than it was in the nineteenth century. 

My feeling is that this part of the entry is misplaced and belongs to the Persian "miyaan" entry. As I have indicated in the other thread, I believe this in reality is "miyaan-chii" where "chii" is the Turkish agential suffix. In Urdu, we have "top-chii" (gunner), "xazaanchii" (treasurer). There are instances of ch>>j in Persian.

My dictionary also gives "miyaaN-aadamii" to mean "gentleman", "nice man". "miyaaN jii" is given as "elementary teacher in mosque school" which is correct.

miyaan (Persian) also means "sheath" for a sword and "miyaan-bastah" (ready) where miyaan means "waist".

Edit: It has just occurred to me that I know an Iranian gentleman whose surname is "dastmaalchii" (handkerchief maker?).



Wolverine9 said:


> Would it be roughly equivalent to janaab or saahib instead?


Wolverine 9, it all depends on context. One could use this sentence to a male person of one's own age, one's son's age or even one quite a bit older than one. So, it could be "Sir, janaab" for all the age groups, a bit of sarchasm might come into play for the younger gentleman. One English equivalent could be "My good fellow" or "My dear", even though this sounds a bit old fashioned.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> In the sentence "are miyaaN, kahaaN chale?", I personally would n't equate "miyaaN" with "buddy". For example, I don't believe we would/could say, "vuh meraa miyaaN hai" (He is my buddy).



One cannot of course say "woh meraa miyaaN hai", but one cannot say to someone who's not a very good acquaintance, "are Miyaan, kahaan chale?" One can only say this to a buddy, a neighbour, etc. - someone with whome one has daily "uThnaa-baiThnaa". That was my point.

Yes, the same sentence could also be said as "Are Janaab, kahaan chale?" - and, again, "janaab" loses its usual meaning in this sentence and gains a (very) familiar touch.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> One cannot of course say "woh meraa miyaaN hai", but one cannot say to someone who's not a very good acquaintance, "are Miyaan, kahaan chale?" One can only say this to a buddy, a neighbour, etc. - someone with whome one has daily "uThnaa-baiThnaa". That was my point.


I disagree. One can say ''are miyaaN kahaaN chale'' to a complete stranger, at least in the original language which I consider Urdu.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> I disagree. One can say ''are miyaaN kahaaN chale'' to a complete stranger, at least in the original language which I consider Urdu.



I agree. In this context miyaaN (solo, without a name) is used by an older person to address someone younger, whether acquainted or stranger. 

When miyaaN is added after a person's given name (e.g. zaahid miyaaN), especially (but not exclusively) in the second person, it normally indicates close acquaintance/relation, still for someone younger, and is treated as a term of endearment.

When miyaaN is used as a suffix to a relation name, like chachaa miyaaN, maamuuN miyaaN, bha'ii miyaaN, it is used by a younger person for someone older, and as a term of respect.


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## searcher123

I have not heard or read ميان in the meaning of "sir/mister/teacher" to now at all. In modern Persian, ميان is used just in the following meanings:

1. *Middle*. Example: ميان تنه (=waist)
2. *Between*. Example: ميان وعده (i.e. the dishes that will be eaten in between two main dish/meal/serving)
3. *Along with*. Example: او ميان مردم زندگي مي‌كند
4. *Among*. Example: ميان آن دو شباهت زيادي وجود دارد


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## tarkshya

I read this thread fully, but I don't think the etymology question was ever adequately addressed. So what are the origins of the word miyaaN (as in the meaning of "sir")?


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## mundiya

tarkshya said:


> I read this thread fully, but I don't think the etymology question was ever adequately addressed. So what are the origins of the word miyaaN (as in the meaning of "sir")?



Most likely the etymology is Persian. This other thread covers the topic more thoroughly: Urdu: miyaaN


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## marrish

A definition for Dakkanii Urdu shines a new light on the etymological and semantic development, see below.

*میاں* ۔ پیارے۔ پیتم۔ سجن۔ دل بر۔ جانی۔ آقا۔ خاوند۔ مالک۔_*miyaaN*: pyaare, piitam, sajjan, dil·bar, jaanii, aaqaa, xaavind, maalik_​ارے رے میاں میں پچھانی نہیں
دو صورت پہ تیری نشانی نہیں
(قصہ سیاہ پوش)
_are re miyaN maiN pichhaanii nahiiN_
_do suurat pih terii nishaanii nahiiN_
_(qissah-e-siyaah·posh)_
 ا۔ *میاں* ۔ امیراں بہ معنی سردار کا مخفف۔  والی۔  وارث۔ خداوند۔ مالک۔ سرکار۔ حضور۔ حاکم۔ سردار (۲) صاحب زادہ۔ بیٹا (۳) خاوند۔ شوہر۔خصم (۴) جناب۔ جنابِ عالی (۵) یار۔ دوست۔ بھائی (۶) استاد۔ معلم۔ مدرس۔ پڑھانے والا (۷) شہ زادہ۔ صاحب عالم۔ امیرزادہ۔ کنور (۸) ہاڑی۔ راجاؤں کے خاندان کے لوگ۔
_*miyaaN*: amiiraaN ba-ma3nii-e-sardaar kaa muxaffaf aaqaa, waalii, waaris, xudaavand, maalik, sarkaar, Huzuur, Haakim, sardaar (2) saaHib-zaadah, beTaa (3) xaavind, shauhar, xasam (4) janaab, janaab-e-3aalii (5) yaar, dost, bhaa'ii (6) ustaad, mu3allim, mudarris, paRhaane vaalaa (7) shah-zaadah, saaHib-3aalam, amiirzaadah, kaNwar (8) pahaaRii, raajaa'oN ke xaandaan ke log._​


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## mannoushka

I wonder if this is of any help:

Iranian Persian has this term _miaandaar_, “the keeper of the centre”, in the context of traditional athletic events. It is a title earned by the leading athlete at an old gym. (I have a feeling the gyms and the athletics are by now extinct or close to extinction.)

The same word has also occasionally been used to refer to a master of ceremonies, a mediator, or an influential figure, respected by all, in a small community.


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## Qureshpor

^ marrish SaaHib, is the above quote suggesting that, in essence, "miyaaN" is an abbreviation for "amiiraaN"? Why is "miyaaN" spelt as "miyaan" in one place while it is "miyaaN" else where?


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> ^ marrish SaaHib, is the above quote suggesting that, in essence, "miyaaN" is an abbreviation for "amiiraaN"? Why is "miyaaN" spelt as "miyaan" in one place while it is "miyaaN" else where?


Correct, _janaab-e-waalaa_ — I would further suggest that the same word _amiir(aaN)_ is apparently the origin of _miir_, as in میرزا اسداللہ بیگ خاں غالبؔ *Miir*_·zaa Asadullah Bēg xaaN Ghaalib_ or میر محمدؐ تقی میرؔ _*Miir*_ _MuHammad Taqii_ '_*Meer*_'.
In case of the non-Persian/'vernacular(-ised)' usage of _miyaaN_ a /*r*/ to /*y*/ change would not be unusual.[<edited]
Re. your keen observation of the different spellings – I've checked it back with the source and it appears to be my own typo, thank you Qureshpor SaaHib for pointing this out, I'm setting it right.


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## PersoLatin

There’s no question that امیر is the source for mir/میر and mīrzā/میرزا (shortened امیرزاد) but I can’t see it being the source for Persian miān/میان, or have I misunderstood some of the above posts?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Correct, _janaab-e-waalaa_ — I would further suggest that the same word _amiir(aaN)_ is apparently the origin of _miir_, as in میرزا اسداللہ بیگ خاں غالبؔ *Miir*_·zaa Asadullah Bēg xaaN Ghaalib_ or میر محمدؐ تقی میرؔ _*Miir*_ _MuHammad Taqii_ '_*Meer*_'.
> In case of the non-Persian/'vernacular(-ised)' usage of _miyaaN_ a /r/ to /l/ change would not be unusual.
> Re. your keen observation of the different spellings – I've checked it back with the source and it appears to be my own typo, thank you Qureshpor SaaHib for pointing this out, I'm setting it right.


marrish SaaHib, I know that "miir" is shortened form of "amiir" which is an Arabic word for "prince. "miir-zaa" is "prince-born", i.e "born of a prince". "miiraan" would be "princes". I can't see how we can get "miyaaN" from "miiraan".


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## eskandar

PersoLatin said:


> There’s no question that امیر is the source for mir/میر and mīrzā/میرزا (shortened امیرزاد) but I can’t see it being the source for Persian miān/میان, or have I misunderstood some of the above posts?


Yes, the suggestion is that امیراں is the source of Urdu میاں (title of address) not Persian میان (middle). I'm not sure how plausible this is, but it's not a claim that the Persian word میان is derived from امیر .


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## PersoLatin

^^Thank you, that's clear now.


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## tanzeel

I believe ميان to mean "someone of middle rank" in the Indo-Islamic culture/languages, ultimately derived from Persian. You will see many Persian words take on meanings in India that modern Persian speakers do not understand, e.g. they think "Pir" just means old, but in the Indo-Islamic culture (which includes Persian-speakers in Afghanistan btw) it means a Sufi guide.


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## PersoLatin

tanzeel said:


> Persian speakers do not understand, e.g. they think "Pir" just means old, but in the Indo-Islamic culture (which includes Persian-speakers in Afghanistan btw) it means a Sufi guide.


A Sufi most probably becomes a guide only when he becomes old/pir. 

There are many compound words which use پیر to signify seniority e.g. پیرصوفی, پیردلیل پیرمغان and many more, now if you just use پیر on its own how a does Persian speaker know which one of these you are referring to.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> now if you just use پیر on its own how a does Persian speaker know which one of these you are referring to.


Because we don't use the others apart from پیرِ مُغاں which is used in literature, mainly Urdu poetry. Use of the word پیر in the Subcontinent is common for a religious (Islamic) guide amongst some denominations. I don't know how پیر is perceived in Afghanistan.



PersoLatin said:


> A Sufi most probably becomes a guide only when he becomes old/pir.


There are many young "piirs" in our part of the world!


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> There are many young "piirs" in our part of the world!


Well at least these things are highlighted & documented for future generations.

پیر, in Afghanistan, as well meaning old, is used for پدر. According to some dictionaries this پیر is derived from پدر which doesn’t seem likely, and must have come about as fathers are always old, relatively speaking, especially in old times, also there are many references to پدر پیر in literature & daily use too, no different to ‘the old man’ in English.


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## PersoLatin

Going back to the OP, in modern Persian maybe older times too, the term میان‌سال means ‘middle age’ so those people commands respect so the word can be taken as ‘respectful’ if  سال/year is removed say, in the Subcontinent, you are left with میان or ‘respect’، so basically the same process that happened to پیر.


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## rarabara

I did not recognize this word in Kurdish.


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