# Pitch Accent



## didacc

It's just a simple doubt. If you don't use properly the pitch accent in japanese, can they understand you? I mean, japanese uses pitch accent but is not a tonal language, right? So, how important the pitch accent is? I've heard that in a few words uses tone to distinguish the meaning, but only in a few words like "hashi". Is that correct?

I'm thinking of learning japanese, I didn't start yet, so sorry for this question!


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## hanako52

I think even if you do not use pitch accent properly when you speak Japanese, most people will understand what you say. They will only know you are from a different region or a different country.  I would say that we have been trained to distinguish words by context ever since we started learning our language.
 As you mentioned, unlike Chinese which is a tonal language, we do not have many  words like 橋 and 端 (hashi). 
The most important thing in speaking Japanese, in my opinion, place the same amount of stress on each syllable. Another thing, remember that we do not treat the vowels as either short or long ones.  I think that  長母音　(chyouboin)is not the same as a long vowel in English.

I hope it helps.


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## didacc

Thank you! So useful! It's very encouraging that pronunciation don't be a communicating wall.
 It's a little hard the thing you say because when I try to say some sentence, I tend to stress some syllable as in spanish or catalan, but I'll keep trying, thanks for the advice!
I don't understand at all what you say about long vowels. Is a long vowel like a double normal vowel length? I'm not a native english-speaker but, for example, in spanish we have some words with double vowel, like "leer" (to read). "Leer" has phonetically (as in writing) two "e", "le-er". Is something like that in japanese? Like the length of two separated vowels?


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## hanako52

Sorry about confusing you.
You just need to know there are only 5 vowels in Japanese. 
The length of each vowel is  the same.  The length of  a 長母音　in Japanese is twice  as long as  a vowel.   
A long vowel in English is not necessarily that long. This is what I was saying.

Sorry for the hashi examples, it should have been this combination 橋　and 箸.


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## Tonky

Actually, please do note that pronunciation does create a communication barrier somewhat depending on whom you talk to. 
Most people try to hear you and try to understand your words, but some who are not very used to talking to foreigners just go panic and do not think you are talking in Japanese sometimes. (A few friends of mine have complained about it, like a taxi driver telling them he didn't understand anything they said, when they thought they were talking in perfect Japanese.)

As you are already aware, stress accent is very different from pitch accent. When you say "Madrid", it sounds like マドリ*ー*ド(mad-reed) to many Japanese, as in how you stress the "ri" part of the word and we tend to hear it as a long vowel instead of an accent. (Not really sure if this is what hanako52 tried to explain above, though.)

Pitch accent is different from Tones in tonal languages too, but we still use a tone in each and every word (not just a few words, hanako52, it's just that many native Japanese do not notice it in everyday life). But, unlike Chinese, only one (or two sometimes) syllable is marked for the tone difference, and the rule varies by areas/dialects. (You will most likely learn Tokyo accent.)
It is not recommended to ignore it all, but it does not make a big deal even if you cannot learn it well. So, basically, as hanako52 said above, you do not have to worry too much about it as a learner. Remind yourself how foreigners in your country speak Spanish


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## John_Doe

> As you are already aware, stress accent is very different from pitch accent. When you say "Madrid", it sounds like マドリ*ー*ド(mad-reed)  to many Japanese, as in how you stress the "ri" part of the word and we  tend to hear it as a long vowel instead of an accent. (Not really sure  if this is what hanako52 tried to explain above, though.)



I was wondering if Japanese words are really pronounced without stress accent. I was said that when speaking in Japanese I should pronounce words flatly, i.e. each syllable is to be given an equal amount of loudness, so to speak, but because of stress-accent nature of my native language, I can't help hearing Japanese people stressing every word they say. "watashI-wa daigakusEi desU", something like that. Some words feel like constantly changing the stress position (nagatO or nagAto, sUshi or sushI, etc). Well, sometimes I notices pitch accent, too. Like in "dare" (the tone falls here, I gather).


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## didacc

Thank you hanako52! 
Tonky, thank you too for this explanation! Yes, every word in japanese has tones/pitch accent, as all the languages, but only in a few it has semantic value, in the minimal pairs like "hashi" (is it right? ).
John_Doe, I think they don't stress any syllable. I think it's like a loquendo voice speech (sorry for that comparison), but I'm not sure. We must to wait more answers.
Anyway, I think, as you have said, it is an advanced phonetic aspect, so I'll wait to learn it. Thank you all!


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## YangMuye

John_Doe said:


> I was wondering if Japanese words are really pronounced without stress accent? [...] i.e. each syllable is to be given an equal amount of loudness, so to speak


You don't stress a single syllable, but you stress a word. When a word is stress, you give every syllable higher pitch, amount of length, and loudness. For example. わたしは、わー↑↑かーらー↓↓なー↑↑いー (exaggerated) Sometimes the only the first or last syllable is lengthened.


John_Doe said:


> "watashI-wa daigakusEi desU", something like that. Some words feel like constantly changing the stress position (nagatO or nagAto, sUshi or sushI, etc). Well, sometimes I notices pitch accent, too. Like in "dare" (the tone is falling here, I gather).


I found people speaking some languages (Portuguese) tend to perceive longer vowels as stress regardless of the pitch. For some else languages (Japanese and Chinese), pitch seems to be a more prominent feature. Can you hear the difference: 


> だ↑れもいない / だ↓れかい↑る


For most Chinese speakers, だ↓れ and い↑る are stressed while だ↑れ or ない is not.


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## Tonky

John_Doe said:


> I was wondering if Japanese words are really pronounced without stress accent?


The point is that putting stress does not make a difference in Japanese, but pitch/tone does, which doesn't in English.

For example, a word "banana" [bənˈænə] at a children show, like Sesame Street.※「 = pitch rise,  」= pitch fall / H = high, L = low​A : "What are you eating?" 
B : "バ」ナーナ (HLL)"
A : "What did you say?"
B : "I said, バ「ナー」ナ (LHL)"
A : "Oh, バ「ナーナ? (LHH)"
They are all saying "banana" and no distinctions among them, all meaning the same banana as long as you have the stress on the second syllable, "na". The difference here is the intonation alone. But when Japanese hear them, we tend to get lost about where the accent of "banana" is supposed to be.
Many English teachers who are Japanese *tend* to teach Japanese students with exaggeration of the intonation instead so that students can actually "hear" where the accent is. I remember how my teachers were saying "nevertheless" differently (trying to tell us where the accent is, with high pitch sound of "less") from the native speakers' intonation of the same word (that they usually have high pitch of "never" but an accent on "less" - I still get confused often). 

In Japanese, 
A : バ」ナナ(HLL)、食べる？  ~ someone with Tokyo accent 
B : バ「ナ」ナ(LHL)はいらんわ。　~ someone with Kansai accent
(If someone says バ「ナナ(LHH), we tend to expect the word continues to say something else, like バ「ナナラ」マ.)
Both mean the same, banana, but we can hear that one is talking in Tokyo accent, the other is talking in Kansai accent. The meaning does not change, but gives a very different impression and it is not about intonation.



didacc said:


> Yes, every word in japanese has tones/pitch accent, as all the languages, but only in a few it has semantic value, in the minimal pairs like "hashi" (is it right? ).


It would be subjective to say "only in a few", considering how many homonyms we have  but, yeah, more or less so.
To be precise, those few pairs you probably learn are never big problems because we are usually aware of those, just like how you can guess "R" and "L" out of context when Japanese pronounce it wrong (as it became famous). The problem arises when least expected, usually, although I cannot think of a good example now. 
After all, I have seen only a very few learners who actually manage to do Japanese accents properly. (And I'd better add that I myself am never perfect in Tokyo accent, either.)


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## YangMuye

Tonky said:


> The problem arises when least expected, usually, although I cannot think of a good example now.


ダジャレ

倒産か、辛かったな　／　倒産の会社
父さんカツラ買ったな　／　父さんの会社

たい焼きって食ったことある
タイヤ切って食ったことある

ねえ、ちゃんと風呂入ってる
 姉ちゃんと、風呂入ってる？

理科ちゃんとやってる

私といてください　（Same accent, but い can be lowered）
渡しといてください

車で待とう　（車 has two accents, but only LHH is common）
来るまで待とう

花子さん１５歳
花子３５歳


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## Tonky

YangMuye-san, good ones. 
I actually got reminded of another (perfect accent match though... only distinguishable from context), after looking at yours.

汚職事件
お食事券


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