# bene o male



## spero

La clientela *bene o male *ci sta anche se non è fissa.

The text is talking about a restaurant.


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## Binario

Scusa, ma qual'e la domanda?


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## Angel.Aura

Ciao spero,

Our Dictionary offers this translation
bene o male = after a fashion


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## kan3malato

spero said:


> La clientela *bene o male *ci sta anche se non è fissa.
> 
> The text is talking about a restaurant.


Ciao.
Even though I don't have a fixed amount of customers every day, somehow or other I (still) manage to get by/make a living/survive.(by Brian)


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## spero

Angel.Aura said:


> Ciao spero,
> 
> Our Dictionary offers this translation
> bene o male = after a fashion


 
But this makes no sense in the context...



kan3malato said:


> Ciao.
> Even though I don't have a fixed amount of customers every day, somehow or other I (still) manage to get by/make a living/survive.(by Brian)


 

Ah! This is perfect!!  But I'll say regular customers instead of 'fixed'...


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## brian

Eccomi.  "Somehow or other" seems best to me, especially because, frankly, I've never heard or used "after a fashion."  (Maybe I'm just  not read enough...)


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## Angel.Aura

Eccolo! 
Allora mi pare opportuno aggiungere la voce nel dizionario, che ne dici? 

Mmmh, peccato per 'after a fashion', mi pareva molto stiloso, dopotutto...


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## You little ripper!

kan3malato said:


> Ciao.
> Even though I don't have a fixed amount of customers every day, somehow or other I (still) manage to get by/make a living/survive.(by Brian)


Kan, that sentence doesn't translate the Italian sentence in my opinion.



> La clientela *bene o male *ci sta anche se non è fissa.



I would translate that as * I do get customers** to some extent**, even if they aren't regulars. *(more literal translation)

*I do get some customers*, *even if they aren't regulars. *(looser translation)


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## bianconera

Io mi butto... 
I do get a steady flow of customers more or less
The customers come more or less even if they are not the same steady ones

Too wordy?


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## Paulfromitaly

Charles Costante said:


> I would translate that as * I do get customers** to some extent**, even if they aren't regulars. *(more literal translation)
> 
> *I do get some customers*, *even if they aren't regulars. *(looser translation)



Your translations is correct, Charles.
In other words: I can't complain about not having customers, although most of them are not regulars.


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## GavinW

I think a very loose translation could (also) be justified/called for...

There is some sort/kind of client base(/clientele), although they're not regulars.
There is a client base, of sorts/of a kind, although...

etc etc


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## brian

Kan3malato was curious about this phrase and asked me in private for my opinion (because to tell you the truth, I shouldn't be here...I should be studying!! ), and the way he explained "bene o male" in this context was with the following sentences:



> ﻿La clientela non è fissa tutti i giorni ma *bene o male* (in qualche maniera) si tira avanti





> ﻿Benchè non ho una clientela fissa giornalmente (un giorno 10 persone il giorno dopo 5 l'altro 20) riesco *bene o male* a tirare avanti il negozio


So this is what I was working from, and then I said he could post my translation--_...*somehow* I still get customers / ...I still *somehow* manage to get by..._--as a suggestion. (To tell you the truth, I shouldn't be here...I should be studying!! )

So do you think that his interpretation of the sentence is wrong? Or is my interpretation of _his_ sentence wrong, and it should be "I still get customers, *more or less/of some sort*" / "I still manage to get by, *more or less/sort of*"?

It's really the "in qualche maniera," instead of, say, "più o meno," that pushed me.


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## Bookmom

Angel.Aura said:


> Eccolo!
> Allora mi pare opportuno aggiungere la voce nel dizionario, che ne dici?
> 
> Mmmh, peccato per 'after a fashion', mi pareva molto stiloso, dopotutto...


 
Don't give up the expression "after a fashion" so easily! It's a wonderful expression, I'm struggling, but I'm making a go of it after a fashion, which is all I can expect at the moment. After a fashion, in one way or another. 

dopo un modo! in un modo o nell'altro!


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## libellulo

Ciao

Potete suggerire come potrei tradurre 'benemale' in questa frase:

'Gigi vuole andare a Milano, dice che con Bologna ha chiuso, che gli ricorda troppi casini e ora che è il settantasei e abbiamo vent'anni e qualcosa *benemale *è successo, non si può tornare indietro a fare la vita scassata di prima'

'Gigi wants to go to Milan. He says that he’s finished with Bologna, that it reminds him of too many cock-ups and now that it is nineteen-seventy-six and we are twenty and something *good/bad* has happened we can’t go back and carry on the wrecked life we used to have'

Grazie mille!


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## elfa

Would this work in the plural?

_...and both good and bad things have happened, we can't go back..._


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## Curandera

I'd say:

_bene o male = more or less something has happened_


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## GavinW

I might say: "...and a few things have happened, for better or for worse,..."

By the way, I never really registered that it was written like this, as one word. Useful discovery!
;-)


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## elfa

GavinW said:


> I might say: "...and a few things have happened, for better or for worse,..."
> 
> By the way, I never really registered that it was written like this, as one word. Useful discovery!
> ;-)



I really like this 

No, I didn't either - and it doesn't appear to feature in any online dictionaries, that I could see anyway.


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## Curandera

Actually I've never seen it written like this, as one word either.


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## tranquilspaces

GavinW said:


> I might say: "for better or for worse..."
> ;-)



Wow, I feel like I just understood this expression for the first time! It was kind of vague to me before. Thanks, Gavin!


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## Curandera

qualcosa *bene o male *è successo.

Forse vaneggio e molto probabilmente non riesco a vedere la sottigliezza nel caso in questione ma mi risulta difficile interpretare la frase secondo quanto suggerito prima. 
Qui bene o male sembra conferire un carattere più generale che spontaneamente tradurrei con:

Tutto sommato/in un modo o in un altro/in un certo qualmodo.

For better and for worse rende questa idea? 

Vi prego di farmi rinsavire al più presto, grazie.


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## You little ripper!

I've always understood 'for better or for worse' to mean _no matter what happens._ I'm still not sure I understand what 'benemale' means in that sentence.


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## Curandera

Thanks Paul, this is what I was talking about:

_'Somehow or other/more or less'. _


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## GavinW

Paulfromitaly said:


> Have you read this?
> 
> *bene o male*


 
Thanks Paul. That's refreshed a few memories. I now no longer like my earlier suggestion ("for better or for worse") so much (sorry, folks!). I think we'll have to keep a handful of phrases on hand, and choose from them depending on the context. But a good one that will work a lot of the time, I feel, is "one way or another", which is suitably vague and general.

A few more example sentences in Italian would be very welcome, and might resolve the issue more or less for all time! ;-)


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> Thanks Paul, this is what I was talking about:
> 
> _'Somehow or other/more or less'. _


That definitely makes more sense but it still sounds a bit strange in that sentence when translated ('more or less' probably works best). Does 'bene o male'/'benemale'/'bene male' (or whatever it's supposed to be) make sense in that Italian sentence?


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## Curandera

Yes, it does. 

I'd definitely write 'bene o male' instead of 'benemale'... I've never encountered it written like this as one word but it may be just me. 

As I said in post#8 in Italian bene o male in this sentence means 'in un modo o in un altro' = one way or another, somehow or other = 'in un certo qualmodo' = più o meno = more or less.

La situazione è bene o male migliorata. This sentence doesn't actually mean that the situation improved for better or for worse but that the situation improved one way or another, the situation improved somehow or other.

In this case I'd simply say:

_'Something has happened one way or another' (I'm sure it can be improved)_

Do I make sense?


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> I'd definitely write 'bene o male' instead of 'benemale'... I've never encountered it written like this as one word but it may be just me.
> 
> As I said in post#8 in Italian bene o male in this sentence means 'in un modo o in un altro' = one way or another, somehow or other = 'in un certo qualmodo' = più o meno = more or less.
> 
> La situazione è bene o male migliorata. This sentence doesn't actually mean that the situation improved for better or for worse but that the situation improved one way or another, the situation improved somehow or other.
> 
> In this case I'd simply say:
> 
> _'Something has happened one way or another' (I'm sure it can be improved)_
> 
> Do I make sense?


It's a bit difficult without more context but standing alone 'something has happened, one way or another' sounds very strange to me. At best, it's stating the obvious.


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## xmas50

GavinW said:


> Thanks Paul. That's refreshed a few memories. I now no longer like my earlier suggestion ("for better or for worse") so much (sorry, folks!). I think we'll have to keep a handful of phrases on hand, and choose from them depending on the context. But a good one that will work a lot of the time, I feel, is "one way or another", which is suitably vague and general.
> 
> A few more example sentences in Italian would be very welcome, and might resolve the issue more or less for all time! ;-)



Hi everyone,

I agree with Gavin, the choice of the English sentence depends on the context. It could be 
_one way or the other
someway
somehow_ or even a simple _anyway_ (as I would use in the original sentence) 

A few more examples:

- Come va con il tuo nuovo lavoro?
- È un po' difficile perché sto ancora imparando, ma - bene o male - me la sto cavando

 XXX è stato un tiranno terribile, ma - bene o male - ha fatto la storia del suo paese
 

 La nuova macchina è molto cara, ma - bene o male - il prezzo è in linea con il mercato
 

 La nuova badante parla a malapena italiano, ma - bene o male - ci capiamo per le cose essenziali

P.S. Nemmeno io ho mai visto "bene o male" scritto _benemale_


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## You little ripper!

xmas50 said:


> _
> somehow_ or even a simple _anyway_ (as I would use in the original sentence)


Xmas, those would definitely fit better in that sentence. I do think some more context would help to be certain.


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## marco.cur

Qualcosa bene o male è successo: è successo qualcosa (è un dato di fatto), indipendentemente che sia una cosa positiva o negativa. Non si vuole dare un giudizio di merito su quel che è successo; è successo qualcosa e basta, e bisogna tenerne conto (che piaccia o che non piaccia).


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## You little ripper!

marco.cur said:


> Qualcosa bene o male è successo: è successo qualcosa (è un dato di fatto), indipendentemente che sia una cosa positiva o negativa. Non si vuole dare un giudizio di merito su quel che è successo; è successo qualcosa e basta, e bisogna tenerne conto (che piaccia o che non piaccia).


Maybe, _like it or not._


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## elfa

Charles Costante said:


> Maybe, _like it or not._



From the English point of view, this would go very well.

_...like it or not, something happened...._


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## Bookmom

A few suggestions for neutral expressions as per Marco's post: by hook or by crook, somehow or other, at any rate, in either case, either way, under any circumstances, in any event....


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## Curandera

I beg to differ. Although the expression 'like it or not' sounds good in English, it doesn't convey the idea of 'bene o male' in Italian. 
If I wanted to use a more generic way of saying it I'd go for:

All in all 
all things considered
Overall

Basically I'd translated it as: tutto sommato/nell'insieme

What do the natives think about it?


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> I beg to differ. Although the expression 'like it or not' sounds good in English, it doesn't convey the idea of 'bene o male' in Italian.
> If I wanted to use a more generic way of saying it I'd go for:
> 
> All in all
> all things considered
> Overall
> 
> Basically I'd translated it as: tutto sommato/nell'insieme
> 
> What do the natives think about it?


Curandera, the only problem with those is that they don't really fit into that sentence.  .............._all in all/all things considered/overall something happened......_....... don't really make sense.


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## Curandera

'Gigi vuole andare a Milano, dice che con Bologna ha chiuso, che gli ricorda troppi casini e ora che è il settantasei e abbiamo vent'anni e qualcosa *bene o male *è successo, non si può tornare indietro a fare la vita scassata di prima'.

I don't get your point, Charles. What do you mean when you say that neither of them fit here? Is the sentence in Italian so unclear?

From my viewpoint it does make sense: (my personal interpretation)
I believe it says that something more or less important/relevant had occurred in their lives, so they don't have regrets. 

Now, how would you say that in English to make sense? 
If we say, for example: 'overall something has happened in our lives' would that sound wierd? And if it does, how would you put it?


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## You little ripper!

Curandera said:


> 'Gigi vuole andare a Milano, dice che con Bologna ha chiuso, che gli ricorda troppi casini e ora che è il settantasei e abbiamo vent'anni e qualcosa *bene o male *è successo, non si può tornare indietro a fare la vita scassata di prima'.
> 
> I don't get your point, Charles. What do you mean when you say that neither of them fit here? Is the sentence in Italian so unclear?
> 
> From my viewpoint it does make sense: (my personal interpretation)
> I believe it says that something more or less important/relevant had occurred in their lives, so they don't have regrets.
> 
> Now, how would you say that in English to make sense?
> If we say, for example: 'overall something has happened in our lives' would that sound wierd? And if it does, how would you put it?


The Italian sentence might make sense to you, Curandera, and to all the other Italian natives who have contributed,  but the problem is that you all seem to interpret it differently. It's pointless trying to translate it into English until you all agree to it's meaning in that sentence.


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## tranquilspaces

No wonder I've always had a vague understanding of this phrase. Everyone does!


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## Curandera

Well, I don't think we have different ideas as to the meaning of 'bene o male' in Italian. In this particular context it seems difficult to find the right way of expressing it in English. I gave it a try offering my personal interpretation so that it could be clearer for you to choose something that would fit and make sense in English. Most certainly I can't get my message across.


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## marco.cur

In questo caso direi "after all" (dopotutto, in fin dei conti), ma anche 'like it or not' , come suggerisce Charles, non ci starebbe male.


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## GavinW

I find this an extremely difficult thread to resolve, but at the same time extremely illuminating, and I'm hoping everyone will stay with it (all the way through to "the end"!) ;-)



tranquilspaces said:


> No wonder I've always had a vague understanding of this phrase. Everyone does!


 
Yes, it looks like a "passepartout" phrase that covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. Ho l'idea che, come è normale quando si tratta di una frase idiomatica, i native speakers (Italians) non si pongano troppo il problema del preciso significato, e del fatto che il significato possa variare leggermente fra diversi contesti, mentre noi sì, perche non esiste da noi una (singola) precisa frase fatta con lo stesso valore altamente idiomatica che copra tutte le situazioni immaginabili. 



Curandera said:


> for example: 'overall something has happened in our lives' would that sound wierd? And if it does, how would you put it?


 
Well, yes it does sound weird, unfortunately. I think when it comes to Gigi and Bologna we would probably say "one way or another". In English, this expression is used as a way of avoiding expressing any opinion about whether what has happened is good or bad. Our judgment is suspended, The jury is out. That said, whatever has happened is important, or is set to have important repercussions for the future.

Looking at Xmas' (very useful) examples (alternative translations given in my order of preference):
A) il nuovo lavoro:
1) all in all
2) somehow
3) one way or another
B) tiranno:
1) when all's said and done / at the end of the day
2) (sc: "nel bene o nel male"?) for better or worse (maybe this works)
C) new car
1) that said
2) at the end of the day
D) badante: 
1) one way or another 
2) somehow

Maybe this will help push natives to establish some disambiguating info (ie glosses), eg:
bene o male
1. [comunque, nonostante ciò]
2. [tutto sommato]
3. [in definitiva]

I can't be sure about the number of "senses", or the definition-glosses in Italian [ie the bit I've put in square brackets], or the sense order, but I think the structure of an ideal dictionary entry may end up looking a little like this.


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## elfa

Curandera said:


> Well, I don't think we have different ideas as to the meaning of 'bene o male' in Italian. In this particular context it seems difficult to find the right way of expressing it in English.



I think I agree with Charles here. Unfortunately 'overall something has happened' isn't something that sounds very idiomatic, I'm afraid.


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## Blackman

tranquilspaces said:


> Wow, I feel like I just understood this expression for the first time! It was kind of vague to me before. Thanks, Gavin!


 
It has the same meaning as _più o meno, in un modo o nell'altro, con le buone o con le cattive_....


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