# -oe, pronunciation



## 涼宮

Good afternoon 

Is _oe_ always pronounced /oje/ or /aje/? Because there other day I heard a Russian woman saying доброе утро as /'dobr_aja/_. How do Russian people often pronounce oe?


Thank you in advance!


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## WordOrder

I think, it depends on if _'о'_ is stressed or not.

_полево́е [оjэ] испытание_

_до́брое [ʌjэ] утро_


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## rusita preciosa

Stressed, it is closer to /oye/; unstressed (as in dobroye utro) is is closer to /aye/ or even to /'ye/.
There is no "j".


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## Moro12

Some peace of advice for you:
 everytime you see a vowel combination in Russian, always pronounce it as separate vowels. The same rules as for separate vowels work.
Stressed O = [o], unstressed O = [a]
Stressed Е = [ye] (after a vowel or word-initially), unstressed Е = somewhat close to [yi] but not quite clear (again, if after a vowel or word-initially).

So, we get: большое [bal'-SHO-yi] but доброе [DO-bra-yi].
The final unstressed vowel is actually very short and sounds close to schwa.


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## morzh

Moro12 said:


> Some peace of advice for you:



It's "piece".



Moro12 said:


> everytime you see a vowel combination in Russian, always pronounce it as separate vowels.



That sentence means "in any combination of vowels every vowel should be pronounced separately".
That is, in "Каолин" it should be "ка-о-лин" with every vowel really separated.

Is this really what you were trying to say?


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## 涼宮

WordOrder said:


> I think, it depends on if _'о'_ is stressed or not.
> 
> _полево́е [оjэ] испытание_
> 
> _до́брое [ʌjэ] утро_



I know the Russian stressing vowel rules, but what confused me was that when not stressed I would've expected an /'aje/ in доброе but  I heard /aj*a*/ instead, the last 'a' is what made me wonder if the -oe sound could vary in more ways than a simple oje/aje. 



rusita preciosa said:


> Stressed, it is closer to /oye/; unstressed (as in dobroye utro) is is closer to /aye/ or even to /'ye/.
> *There is no "j"*.



I wasn't romanizing Russian but rather using IPA, the /y/ would be the French u or German ü  (I don't like romanized Cyrillic)

And thanks again!


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## morzh

涼宮 said:


> I know the Russian stressing vowel rules, but what confused me was that when not stressed I would've expected an /'aje/ in доброе but  I heard /aj*a*/ instead, the last 'a' is what made me wonder if the -oe sound could vary in more ways than a simple oje/aje.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't romanizing Russian but rather using IPA, the /y/ would be the French u or German ü  (I don't like romanized Cyrillic)
> 
> And thanks again!



it is "aje" (or "ayeh" using English).
You may heard someone saying "ayah" (aja) (some people may speak in this manner), but then in an unstressed ending they are not that different.


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## Explorer41

涼宮 said:


> I know the Russian stressing vowel rules, but what confused me was that when not stressed I would've expected an /'aje/ in доброе but  I heard /aj*a*/ instead, the last 'a' is what made me wonder if the -oe sound could vary in more ways than a simple oje/aje.


Of course, it could. Even in more ways than listed here. But those are nuances.





> I wasn't romanizing Russian but rather using IPA, the /y/ would be the French u or German ü  (I don't like romanized Cyrillic)And thanks again!


What *rusita preciosa* meant is that we tend to neglect and lose the sound [й] between vowels, when a second vowel is unstressed (like in "до́брая" or "больша́я", not like in "моя́"). It becomes very weak (being a semivowel), or vanishes completely (it's more often, I see). And we deal in different ways, when two unstressed vowels appear at the end of a word! They may just mix up in a strange vowel sound when speech is uncareful...


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## Syline

I pronounce [д*o*брə] in rapid speech, as for a long and slow variation it is smth like [д*o*брaэ].


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## ahvalj

I pronounce «доброе» as «добраэ» with the slightly raised final «э». In the feminine nominative singular, «добрая» sounds something like «добраæ», so that in the rather careful speech both forms may still be distinct.


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## Moro12

morzh said:


> It's "piece".


Sure! I know that  Just a slip of my fingers...




morzh said:


> That sentence means "in any combination of vowels every vowel should be pronounced separately".
> That is, in "Каолин" it should be "ка-о-лин" with every vowel really separated.
> 
> Is this really what you were trying to say?


I mean every vowel is pronounced as a separate vowel regardless if it occurs as a single vowel or comes in a combination with others. There is no pause between them, but each of them makes its own sound.
And yes, "каолин" consists of three syllables. But the pronunciation is [ка-а-ЛИН] since the О is unstressed. I clearly hear two consecutive [a]'s here, do you agree?


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## Explorer41

Consecutive, but a bit different. The quality of the sound changes a bit. By the way, I wonder when we started to lose the [й] sound in such positions... Now saying, that the letters like "е" or "я" always denote two sounds when not placed after a consonant letter, is a big exaggeration, but they still say so, maybe it's a relatively modern phenomenon?..


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> That is, in "Каолин" it should be "ка-о-лин" with every vowel really separated.
> 
> Is this really what you were trying to say?



I also hear it separately - ка-алин.


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## Moro12

Explorer41 said:


> Consecutive, but a bit different. The quality of the sound changes a bit.



Right! Phonetically, it is [kə-ɐ-’ljin]. The vowel in the first syllable undergoes stronger reduction than that in the second syllable, because the second syllable is what is called "pre-stressed syllable".
But I'm affraid going to such nuances is too much complicated for non-natives (and even for most of natives).



Explorer41 said:


> By the way, I wonder when we started to lose the [й] sound in such positions... Now saying, that the letters like "е" or "я" always denote two sounds when not placed after a consonant letter, is a big exaggeration, but they still say so, maybe it's a relatively modern phenomenon?..



I would say that's disputable. Indeed, I know some people claim they pronounce ещё as [и-ЩО], моет as [МО-ит] etc.
But as for me personally, I stick to a more "literal" way. I say [йи-ЩО], [МО-йит] etc, though my Й is quite weak and barely noticeable. But I do feel I'm at least articulating it.
Some people may disagree, but for me "едва" and "и два" sound differently.


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## morzh

Moro12 said:


> Sure! I know that  Just a slip of my fingers...
> 
> 
> 
> I mean every vowel is pronounced as a separate vowel regardless if it occurs as a single vowel or comes in a combination with others. There is no pause between them, but each of them makes its own sound.
> And yes, "каолин" consists of three syllables. But the pronunciation is [ка-а-ЛИН] since the О is unstressed. I clearly hear two consecutive [a]'s here, do you agree?



Gotcha 

So, just an explanation: when you say "every vowel is pronounced as a separate vowel", the meaning will be "every vowel is pronounced separately".
What you are trying to say is: "Every vowel is pronounced THE SAME WAY THE same vowel pronounced when separate".


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## Explorer41

Moro12 said:


> Right! Phonetically, it is [kə-ɐ-’ljin]. The vowel in the first syllable undergoes stronger reduction than that in the second syllable, because the second syllable is what is called "pre-stressed syllable".But I'm affraid going to such nuances is too much complicated for non-natives (and even for most of natives).


Things become much more complicated when details are hushed up. Imagine you have told that pawns move one square in advance, always, and they played with you obeying such rules. Everything is good. Then you see a player who advances his pawn by two squares! You feel yourselves disorganised. It would be another thing, if they told you that pawns have also another move, but it's very difficult and you will learn it later. Then you would be ready at least. Well, the example is not very good, but the idea is clear, I hope. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||I remember they taught us Russian phonetics in a school (lessons of Russian language). I didn't understand a thing, because they simplified the matter, I just didn't manage to find a well-seen correspondance between their explainations and the life. When a few years have passed and I opened a popular book (one of encyclopaedias), I understood at least something, because they weren't too timid to talk about the truth of the real world, not about simplifications. 





Moro12 said:


> I would say that's disputable. Indeed, I know some people claim they pronounce ещё as [и-ЩО], моет as [МО-ит] etc.But as for me personally, I stick to a more "literal" way. I say [йи-ЩО], [МО-йит] etc, though my Й is quite weak and barely noticeable. But I do feel I'm at least articulating it.Some people may disagree, but for me "едва" and "и два" sound differently.


"едва" is another case. I don't know what are strict rules for this, I think, they have not established yet.


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## Moro12

morzh said:


> Gotcha
> 
> 1) ... the meaning will be "every vowel is pronounced separately".
> 2) ... "Every vowel is pronounced THE SAME WAY THE same vowel pronounced when separate".



Thank you for your correction,
however I'm afraid I don't fully understand what is the difference between statement 1) and statement 2)?

Probably my English is not that perfect, but what does statement 1) mean? Does it imply "separated with some pauses" or anything else?


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## morzh

Moro12 said:


> ... but what does statement 1) mean? Does it imply "separated with some pauses" or anything else?



yes.

It means they are separated.


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## Moro12

Got it, thanks!
I still speak Runglish sometimes. Since "по-отдельности" does not necessarily mean "они разделены"


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