# active participle and passive participle plural



## S1234

Hi everyone

When you have the plural of a passive participle, like מגודל megudal (from legadel), it is מגודלים megudalim. Note that the vowel at the end of the singular form is still there.

In the plural of the active participle, מגדל megadel, why does the vowel at the end of the singular form go away and the word becomes מגדלים megadlim.

megudalim
megadlim

Thanks


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## Drink

When the vowel is qamatz it stays (except in the construct state). When it is tzere, it doesn't stay.


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## Ali Smith

Why? What happens in the construct state that causes it to reduce to a פתח?


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## Drink

Ali Smith said:


> Why? What happens in the construct state that causes it to reduce to a פתח?


I didn't say patach...?

מְגֻדָּלִים => construct state מְגֻדְּלֵי

מְגַדְּלִים => construct state מְגַדְּלֵי


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## Ali Smith

Oh, I see. But why does it reduce in the plural construct and not in the plural absolute? It's unstressed in both, right?


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## Drink

Because in the plural absolute, it's pretonic. In the plural construct, it's as if it's pro-pre-tonic.


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## Ali Smith

Drink: Is that why the plural of מִשְׁפָּט 'judgment' is מִשְׁפָּטִים (note the unchanged vowel קמץ) but the plural of מִזְבֵּחַ 'altar' is מִזְבְּחוֹת (note the שוא in place of the צירי)?


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## Drink

No that has nothing to do with it. In both of these cases the vowel is (or would be) pretonic in the plural.


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## Ali Smith

S1234 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> When you have the plural of a passive participle, like מגודל megudal (from legadel), it is מגודלים megudalim. Note that the vowel at the end of the singular form is still there.
> 
> In the plural of the active participle, מגדל megadel, why does the vowel at the end of the singular form go away and the word becomes מגדלים megadlim.
> 
> megudalim
> megadlim
> 
> Thanks


But here the קמץ and צירי are pretonic too, aren’t they? Yet one reduces while the other does not!


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## Drink

Yes, because they are different vowels that reduce under different conditions.


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## Ali Smith

Then why doesn't the צירי in חָבֵר reduce when it's no longer stressed? E.g. khaveri 'my friend', khaverim 'friends'.


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## Drink

I guess you haven't fully figured out those conditions.

And I believe we've discussed this before actually.


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## flockhat

The reason it doesn't reduce is because the previous syllable already reduced. If the previous syllable has reduced, the next one doesn't reduce.

That's why in "altars" מִזְבְּחוֹת it DOES reduce: the previous vowel was in a closed syllable and therefore irreducible.

In שׁוֹמְרִים it reduces too, because the previous vowel was historically long and therefore irreducible.


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