# Urdu: Turki ba Turki jawaab dena



## Kasrav

Hallo
What does this expression mean ? Is it replying quickly, or being a smart-aleck, "haazir jawaabi"..?
Also what is the origin of this expression (does Turki have anything to do with the region Turkey) ?

Thanks in advance
kasrav


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## Qureshpor

Kasrav said:


> Hallo
> What does this expression mean ? Is it replying quickly, or being a smart-aleck, "haazir jawaabi"..?Also what is the origin of this expression (does Turki have anything to do with the region Turkey) ? Thanks in advance
> kasrav


It means "tit for tat", "insolence for insolence". The word is apparently connected with the work "turk" (Turk) but I don't know how this expression came into existence.

P ترکي _turkī (from turk), adj. & s.m. Of or belonging to a Turk; Turkish, Turk-like;—a horse of Turkish breed;—s.f. The Turkish language; Turk-like qualities or habits, oppression, haughtiness, insolence, &c. (see turk):—turkī ba-turkī, adv. Insolence for insolence, &c.; tit for tat; a Rowland for an Oliver (e.g. jawāb turkī ba-turkī denā, To answer insolence with insolence, to give tit for tat):—_


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## Akinci

"Hazır cevap" means someone replying quickly in a smart way... you know "hazır" means "ready". but perhaps here it means "instant, non-stop"... so "hazır cevap" means someone who has quick and smart answers for the questions directed to him...


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## Kasrav

Shukriya Qureshpor ji and Akinci


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## Sheikh_14

Its interesting that hazir jawab exists in turkçe too. I think persian speakers would be of greater help with regards to why Turki ba Turki means such because there are many persian barbs directed towards Turks which Urdu speakers would be oblivious of. The two have a long linguistic history of back and forth.


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## eskandar

In classical Persian literature the Turk is a symbol of cruelty and insolence. Therefore to answer one's Turk-like behavior with more Turk-like behavior (turkii ba-turkii) is to answer insolence with insolence, to exchange tit for tat.


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## Sheikh_14

eskandar said:


> In classical Persian literature the Turk is a symbol of cruelty and insolence. Therefore to answer one's Turk-like behavior with more Turk-like behavior (turkii ba-turkii) is to answer insolence with insolence, to exchange tit for tat.



My point exactly Tashakor Eskandar! 
Do you have any specifics about where it arrived from etc an example though not necceassary would do wonders.Cruelty here is more apt than insolence for tit for tat involves more than just being rude it implies unnecessary retaliation and punitive response.


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## eskandar

A couple of examples from Persian poetry:

اگر آن ترک شیرازی به دست آرد دل ما را
به خال هندوش بخشم سمرقند و بخارا را
Hafiz

با عدل تو دست ترک طبعان
خوشرویی بوستان گرفته
Mujiruddin Baylaqani

The origins are not entirely clear. "Turk" seems to have been a pejorative term for peasants and nomads (and thus, more generally, those of rough character) before it became a primarily ethnic designation. It was even used in Ottoman Turkish poetry as a slur against nomads/peasants.


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## Sheikh_14

Yes indeed hence modern Turkish was previously known as the language of the country folk. However Mustafa Kemal Ataturk wiped clean that perception and today Turkçe is associated with ethnic and nationalist pride. There is similar disdain for the Tartars and Baloch in persian literature if I am not wrong. Kindly in the future do include the roman script as well so that one can with ease understand the pronunciation patterns. Here the poems are relativelystraightforward but they raise inclusivity.


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## Jervoltage

Of course, ترک شیرازی and many other similar expressions containing the word ترک figuratively mean 'beloved'.


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## eskandar

Yes, but not just any beloved, however; it is a specifically cruel beloved who does not indulge the lover or return the lover's affection. It's only with this understanding in mind that Hafiz's bayt can be understood.


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## Sheikh_14

Here in Persian can you use Ra in place of Ba and in urdu Ka instead of Ba?


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## eskandar

No, both Persian _raa_ and Urdu _kaa_ have different meanings from Persian _ba_ and you can not use them here.


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## mundiya

I'm surprised the expression in the thread title is part of Urdu usage.  Turks were cultivators of Persian culture and contributed to the development of Urdu, so I would've expected them to be held in high regard!


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## Sheikh_14

eskandar said:


> No, both Persian _raa_ and Urdu _kaa_ have different meanings from Persian _ba_ and you can not use there.



Turki ba Turki jawab dena equates to respond to Turki with Turki hence Turki Kaa Turki Jawab dena ought to be correct. I can't speak authoritatively for Persian but under that light it ought to be the same there.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> I'm surprised the expression in the thread title is part of Urdu usage.  Turks were cultivators of Persian culture and contributed to the development of Urdu, so I would've expected them to be held in high regard!


You are right but from the perspective of 'aaryaas etc." being conquered at that time it is this meaning. Urdu is a language of those, wouldn't you agree?


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## eskandar

Sheikh_14 said:


> Turki ba Turki jawab dena equates to respond to Turki with Turki hence Turki Kaa Turki Jawab dena ought to be correct.


I think you have misunderstood the Persian part. The phrase is ترکی بترکی جواب دینا so we are talking about the Persian preposition _ba-_ and NOT _baa_, the latter meaning 'with'. Although _ba-_ can be translated many ways depending on context, here it means 'in'. So we can literally translate the phrase as 'to answer Turkish _in_ Turkish' - though 'with' is more idiomatic here, it is not a literal translation.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> I think you have misunderstood the Persian part. The phrase is ترکی بترکی جواب دینا so we are talking about the Persian preposition _ba-_ and NOT _baa_, the latter meaning 'with'. Although _ba-_ can be translated many ways depending on context, here it means 'in'. So we can literally translate the phrase as 'to answer Turkish _in_ Turkish' - though 'with' is more idiomatic here, it is not a literal translation.


I think there *may *be a misunderstanding here. From what I can understand Sheikh_14 is implying...

ترکی بترکی جواب دینا = "turkii kaa turkii (meN) javaab denaa".... He has missed the "meN"

You are saying "Turkish in Turkish" which is "turkey (kaa) turkey meN javaab denaa" You are missing the "kaa", so to speak.

So, both of you are saying the same thing, as far as I can see.


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## eskandar

Thanks, QP SaaHib, I think that is indeed the case.


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## Sheikh_14

Most helpful follow-up from the both of you Sahiibain. Eskandar agaa if you were to write that very sentence Turki ba Turki jawaab dena how would you do so in Iranian Persian? QP Saahib is the usage of Ko in place of Kaa as in Turkii ko Turkii maiN jawaab dena a common error or correct as well since Ko seems quite forceful and with intent?


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## tarkshya

marrish said:


> You are right but from the perspective of 'aaryaas etc." being conquered at that time it is this meaning. Urdu is a language of those, wouldn't you agree?



I have read somewhere that Turks in Iran are stereotyped just  as Sardars in India, i.e. too much brawn and too little brains . It may be unfair to both of them, but hey, aren't stereotypes jokes really salacious


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## eskandar

Sheikh_14 said:


> Eskandar agaa if you were to write that very sentence Turki ba Turki jawaab dena how would you do so in Iranian Persian?


ترکی به ترکی جواب دادن torki be-torki javaab daadan. Though I should note that I've never seen it used in Persian and couldn't find any examples of its use in Persian online; I think it's an Urdu coinage.


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## Sheikh_14

[QUOTi=tarkshya;14634111]I have read somewhere that Turks in Iran are stereotyust  as Sardars in India, i.e. too much brawn and too little brains . It may be unfair to both of them, but hey, aren't stereotypes jokes really salacious [/QUOTE]

Yes, If by the Sardars you are referring to the brotherly Sikhs. And tashakor Eskandar rather unusual I must say that a saying that has far greater significance to Perso-phones is instead used by Urdu phones.


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## Jervoltage

eskandar said:


> ترکی به ترکی جواب دادن torki be-torki javaab daadan. Though I should note that I've never seen it used in Persian and couldn't find any examples of its use in Persian online; I think it's an Urdu coinage.



ترکی را به/با ترکی جواب دادن is more accurate. However, the expression is جواب ترکی، به ترکی in Persian as attested here in لغت نامه ی دهخدا.

جواب های هوی است is a far more common idiom to this effect.


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## eskandar

Thanks! Good to know. How do you pronounce the other idiom you provided?


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## Jervoltage

eskandar said:


> Thanks! Good to know. How do you pronounce the other idiom you provided?



You are welcome. The pronunciation is _javaab-e haay hooy ast _(lit. you answer a shout with another; also see های و هوی (= uproar)).


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## Sheikh_14

وهوی hāy u hūy, های هوی hāy hūy, Noisy mirth, festivity, conviviality; make haste! be quick! hue and cry;--dar īn hāy u hūy, In the middle of this uproar, tumult, hubbub (m.c.).
Seems to be an equivalent of the english hoo-hah. Once again a timely contribution by Jervoltage Agaa. I am pretty positive Urdu too has an equivalent but can't put my finger on it. If it does come to anyone's mind than do divulge. Possibilites are shor ke badle shor, off ka jawab hāy or Hā'e mai Ho'e milana/dalna.


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## Qureshpor

There is a good illustration of "turkii bah turkii javaab denaa" in the "shahaab-naamah" from which our Gope SaaHib has been asking questions. The writer describes a scene where a group of people (both men and women) are in a boat. On the bank of the river is a group of men, all answering "call of nature". When the boat passes by them, all of them expose themselves to the people in the boat. The ladies cover their faces from being embarrassed.....

mallaaH SaaHib musalmaan the. ek nau-javaan ko jo taa'o aayaa to us ne bhii apnaa tah-band uThaa kar sikhkhoN ko turkii bah turkii javaab dene kaa iraadah kiyaa. lekin 3umr-rasiidah mallaaH ne use DaaNT-Dapat kar biThaa diyaa.....


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## tarkshya

"*sikhkhoN* ko turkii bah turkii javaab ..."

So we know that they were Sikhs. Looks like my point about Sardars made earlier in this thread is also illustrated inadvertently


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## Qureshpor

tarkshya said:


> "*sikhkhoN* ko turkii bah turkii javaab ..."
> 
> So we know that they were Sikhs. Looks like my point about Sardars made earlier in this thread is also illustrated inadvertently


No, the group of people the author mentions could have been from any other community. It was a coincidence that on this occasion they were Sikhs. If you read the book or ask someone who has read it from cover to cover (for example Gope SaaHib), you will find that the author does not indulge in any stereotypical, prejudicial or racist behaviour.


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## tarkshya

Btw, what is so famous about this book shahaabnaamah? I notice that this book has been quoted very frequently in this forum. Is it a popular book among Urdu speakers?

This book is available online freely, and in entirety. Unfortunately, my Urdu reading is still painfully slow, and occasionally I tend to mix "hua" with "bua"  I would like to know if the book is worth the effort.


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