# organized religion



## Smart Girl

Hi guys,

I would like to know the meaning of organized religion?, and also is this a christian term? 

Here are some examples:

- My views on organized religion are somewhat complicated.
- I don't believe in organized religion.
- I had problems with organized religion.

Thanks in advance.


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## إسكندراني

It's a term which I've only seen used in Christian countries, but isn't technically restricted to Christianity. I'm not sure it has a real definition, nor have I ever seen someone try to translate it into Arabic.


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## Smart Girl

So I'm looking towards for someone translating it into Arabic.


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## Annie_Hall

Well, الدين المنظم, seems to be used at least by wikipedia : *اللاسلطوية والدين.* اللاسلطويين تقليديا مشككين ورافضين *للدين المنظم
*


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## Smart Girl

يعني هي منظمة نرجع فيها لأحكام الدين؟


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## إسكندراني

Smart Girl said:


> يعني هي منظمة نرجع فيها لأحكام الدين؟


أظنّ أوّلاً أنّ هذا مصطلح غير علمي فلا داعي لأن نحاول تعريفه بدقّة - قد أكون مخطئ لكنّي لم أسمعه أبداً إلّا مجازاً.

وأمّا عن معناه فحرفيّاً يعني «الدين المنظّم» - لا يعني أكثر من ذلك شيئاً. وإذا حاولت فهمه من منطلق من الذي يقول هذا المصطلح فهم غالباً يؤمنون أن الروحانية أمر شخصي بحت، أي أنّ لا مكان للمؤسسات ولا للتنظيمات ولا للتعاون في الدين. ويكون هذا كما ذكرت في مداخلتي الأولى - كما أرجّح - سببه جمود الكنيسة الأوروبية تاريخياً، ويأتي في ذهنهم استعلاء الكهنة أو استغلال قواد الفرقة الدينية لأتباع الديانة من عامة الناس.
خلاصته أن المعنى المجرد للعبارة كالآتي
الدين religion
المنظم organised


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## clevermizo

Smart Girl said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I would like to know the meaning of organized religion?, and also is this a christian term?
> 
> Here are some examples:
> 
> - My views on organized religion are somewhat complicated.
> - I don't believe in organized religion.
> - I had problems with organized religion.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Since "organized religion" is apparently not a very commonly used term in Arabic, I don't think these examples really bring across what it means.

When we use "organized religion" in English it refers to the "established" religions: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. The term arises because some people may not believe in the "established" religions, but rather have their own personal beliefs which are different, or also many tribal groups of people in the world have specific belief systems but do not have established "organization" like places to pray, meeting places, prayer times, things like that.

Maybe we can simply use the term دين to refer to organized religion and rather use a different term to refer to different, personal belief systems - maybe something like دين شخصي? I don't know if that makes sense. I think it might best be explained each time in context:

"I don't believe in organized religion" - "لا أؤمن بالأديان ولكن عندي اعتقادات شخصية."

Just my thoughts.


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## GoldBug

"Organized religion" is one of those countless words/terms/phrases that can't be "translated" as such (from English to Arabic). They are culture/language specific without an exact equivalent outside its domain.

I mean, you can "translate" it if you want. You could write *الدين المنظم *as someone mentioned above. The only problem is.......this doesn't really mean anything in Arabic, certainly not to the ordinary Arabic reader.

In cases like this, I think you have no choice but to "explain" what it means to the reader via a footnote or some such, as clevermizo did above.

[Of course, it works the other way too: For example, how do you "translate" the Arabic verb *قـام* into English? Probably at least 100 different ways.]


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## cherine

I think Clevermizo's suggestion is the best and simplest. Let's just go for أديان , and if/when need to make a contrast with "non-organized religion/belief" we can use the word معتقدات شخصية .


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## kifaru

I am not in agreement with Clevermizo's explanation. "Organized religion" is the concept of practicing religion with rules that are inflexible or requiring people to participate in rituals. It requires participation in and belief in religion that has an authoritative way to group a person with people they accept as coreligionists and exclude non believers.

 A person that does not believe in "organized religion" does not dogmatically follow rituals or endorse parts of the theology that they may not subscribe to even though a person may hold some of the beliefs. For example Americans are overwhelmingly Christian in identity morals and practice much more so than the people of Great Britain but many Americans do not believe in organized religion. They may not go to church or pray or keep the Sabbath. They are informed by Christian morals but may also engage in non Christian practices such as Jewish Kabbalah, Hindu meditation, or native American sweat lodges and they do not see any contradiction in these practices. They may acknowledge a higher power but may not agree with Christians that the higher power is conceptualized the same way. They also do not accept any source as the definitive authority for their beliefs.


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## kifaru

I wanted to also point out that people who do not follow organized religion may identify themselves as members of organized religions. I can speak from the experience meeting people in America who identify as Muslims but do not believe in they need to attend Friday prayer or pray times a day at the prescribed times. These people may only pray in congregation during the Eids and and fast during Ramadan. These people feel that they are still perfectly Muslim in belief and assert strong faith.


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## GoldBug

To: Kifaru

Seems to me that although your description of *"organized religion"* is more detailed than Clevermizo's, both of you are saying essentially the same thing. 

But the topic of this thread is how do you say *"organized religion"* in Arabic. I contend, as I said above, that you can't...that you have to supply the Arabic reader with an explanation of what is meant by that phrase or he will totally misunderstand what you mean. 

_[As another example, the exact same dynamic is at work in the English phrase *"the Arab street"....*meaning, of course, the *"general population in the Arab world"*. Again, there is no exact equivalent in Arabic for this phrase......you can "translate" it and come out with _*الشارع العرب *_but unless the reader

knows English fairly well and is current with international relations, he'll have no idea what is meant....an explanation or a footnote would have to be provided as with* "organized religion"]

Sidebar: *_For the sake of completness, let me add the following: this translation difficulty is not peculiar to English/Arabic. A Spanish reader would also be lost if he reads "religion organizada" (organized religion) or "la calle arabe" (the Arab street). Unless some notation is provided that explains what this means in English, you'll generally get blank stares.


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## Outsider

The phrase "organized religion" seems to imply the existence of a priesthood that dictates rules to the faithful, or at least a common set of traditions, rituals and dogmas that everyone is expected to follow. Some people (in western societies at least) become estranged from the rituals and dogmas of traditional religions, but still view themselves as "religious" (or "spiritual") in some sense. But their beliefs and the rituals they practice are very personal and often eclectic, they don't necessarily follow the rules expected by society, or adhere to a single traditional religious group. These are the kinds of people who will say that they "don't believe in organized religion".


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## Ustaath

in some contexts:
 متدين أو التدين
can occasionally commiunicate the same thing = أنا غير متدين او انا لا اؤمن بالتدين 
in others tending to be more literal possibly:
المنظمات او الانظمة الدينية
which signals translationese, but is not totally foreign in concept


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## suma

The term "organized religion" in truth refers to religion that is tradional, customary, familiar, established around the globe.

For example, most Protestant denominations fall under the term "organized religion", yet they lack organization as we typically think of it, heirarchy, or systemic structure.

*الأديان المعتادة*


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## GoldBug

The very fact that we've had about 5 different Arabic possibilities offered for the term "organized religion", proves my point. 

There is no one term in Arabic that gets across the idea of what "organized religion" means to an English speaker. 

If you were writing about or discussing the subject in Arabic, you could choose any of the terms we've seen, but you'd still have to explain to your audience exactly what you meant by the phrase. The term by itself would not provide the necessary information. In fact, chances are very good that someone would "raise his hand" and ask you precisely what you meant by the Arabic term you chose.


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## Ustaath

GoldBug said:


> The very fact that we've had about 5 different Arabic possibilities offered for the term "organized religion", proves my point.
> 
> There is no one term in Arabic that gets across the idea of what "organized religion" means to an English speaker.
> 
> If you were writing about or discussing the subject in Arabic, you could choose any of the terms we've seen, but you'd still have to explain to your audience exactly what you meant by the phrase. The term by itself would not provide the necessary information. In fact, chances are very good that someone would "raise his hand" and ask you precisely what you meant by the Arabic term you chose.


very true GoldBug, and that's mainly due to the Arab Worldview and how traditionally ( though this is beginning to change) the concept of 'deen' is integrated into the fabric of society, and there is no real model of separation of religion and state. Technically, when an Arab says 'Religion', the meaning encompasses much more than what you westerners mean.


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