# مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر



## Nadia_Taliba

السلام عليكم 


هذه هي جملة قصيرة تأتي من كتاب عن رجل مصري إسمه سراج الدين عمر المصري. وتتكلم عن كيف متى عندما سافر من مدينة المنورة إلى مصر. شكراً!  


ترجمة من فضلكم :

مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر قبل أن يصل إليها. نعوذ بالله من سوء الخاتمه


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## Faylasoof

Here is my attempt:

  مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر قبل أن يصل إليها. نعوذ بالله من سوء الخاتمة 

He died at a place called  سويس *  at a distance of 3-stages / 3 days journey from Egypt (and before he could reach it - _but this part needn't be translated as what is said earlier makes it clear_). We seek refuge in God from a sorry / bad end!

 Alternatively: 

 He died before he could reach it (i.e. Egypt), at a place called  سويس * at a distance of 3-stages / 3 days journey from Egypt. We seek refuge in God from a sorry / bad end!

* A place in present-day Saudi Arabia(?) - at least that is what I know.

  مرحلة (s) مراحل (pl.) = a stage (of a journey); one day's journey (by camel etc).


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## cherine

Hi Nadia,
First, allow me a few corrections to your post, I hope you won't mind 


Nadia_Taliba said:


> السلام عليكم
> 
> هذه هي جملة قصيرة تأتي من كتاب عن رجل مصري اسمه سراج الدين عمر المصري. وتتكلم عن كيف مات عندما سافر من المدينة المنورة إلى مصر. شكراً!
> 
> ترجمة من فضلكم :
> 
> مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر قبل أن يصل إليها. نعوذ بالله من سوء الخاتمة ​


The words in blue are not necessary and can be left out.
As for the translation, Faylasoof did a very good job, as always  I only have two comments to make:
If the man died on his way back to Egypt, then the city is most probably Suez. And we would need to translate "before he could reach it" because he would be referring to Egypt.



Faylasoof said:


> مرحلة (s) مراحل (pl.) = a stage (of a journey); one day's journey (by camel etc).


Thanks! I didn't know that.


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## Faylasoof

cherine said:


> As for the translation, Faylasoof did a very good job, as always  I only have two comments to make:
> If the man died on his way back to Egypt,





cherine said:


> then the city is most probably Suez. And we would need to translate "before he could reach it" because he would be referring to Egypt.


 Thanks Cherine! 

I had a feeling later on that it might be a reference to Suez (سويس) and not what I first imagined! 

So my second translation is OK, as I say:
<<He died before he could reach it (i.e. Egypt)....>> 

 The first one was rather awkward anyway!


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## Nadia_Taliba

Thank you very much to both of you.

No Cherine I totally don't mind corrections, they would essentially help me learn so please feel free to correct.


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## Mahaodeh

Maybe he's not referring to Egypt as the country, but Misr, as the nick-name of Cairo.


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## Nadia_Taliba

Mahaodeh said:


> Maybe he's not referring to Egypt as the country, but Misr, as the nick-name of Cairo.



I see, and What make's you say that?

Thanks Nadia


I just read the sentence previously and it says:


لما علت به السن وأحس بدنو منيته تاقت نفسه إلى ختام أيامه في بلدة مصر  


does the بلدة مصر indicate Cairo and not Egypt?

Shukran


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## cherine

Maha is right, sometimes -and even nowadays- we refer to Cairo with the name of the country. Besides, Suez is part of Egypt. So, unless he was speaking of Cairo, it would sound a bit strange to say that the man died in an Egyptian town before reaching Egypt.

But regarding the sentence, I think it's بلده مصر (his country, Egypt) and not بلدة .

@ Faylasoof: Thank _you_.


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## Nadia_Taliba

cherine said:


> Maha is right, sometimes -and even nowadays- we refer to Cairo with the name of the country. Besides, Suez is part of Egypt. So, unless he was speaking of Cairo, it would sound a bit strange to say that the man died in an Egyptian town before reaching Egypt.
> 
> But regarding the sentence, I think it's بلده مصر (his country, Egypt) and not بلدة .
> 
> @ Faylasoof: Thank _you_.





shukran kulkum!!


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## Faylasoof

Mahaodeh said:


> Maybe he's not referring to Egypt as the country, but Misr, as the nick-name of Cairo.


 Thanks Maha and Cherine! You both have solved a puzzle for me, I think! Well, it goes like this.

Firstly, it is interesting to know that Cairo's nick-name is مصر (pronounced _Misr_ / _Masr_ [?]; I’ve heard the latter too). Also, concerning this point:

_


cherine said:



			Maha is right, sometimes -and even nowadays- we refer to Cairo with the name of the country. Besides, Suez is part of Egypt. So, unless he was speaking of Cairo, it would sound a bit strange to say that the man died in an Egyptian town before reaching Egypt...
		
Click to expand...

_ Actually, this was precisely the reason why I initially thought this سويس is not the Egyptian Suez but the town in western Saudi Arabia of the same name. Although that is a long way from Egypt, borders of countries and empires in the past were shifting from time to time. I assumed that the writer was relating events of a time when, say, the Fatimid Egyptian empire was growing and hadn’t yet reached the Two Holy Cities (الحرمين). [This سويس is I think is near / in the Medina province. No idea how old either this سويسor the Egyptian سويس are.] All this, plus some other points, left me quite puzzled. 

So I have a question for Nadia: What is the timeline for this text? Which period are we talking of?

If it is talking of events in the Middle Ages, and esp. prior to 969 CE, then this مصر is Egypt and not Cairo, as the city was founded by al-Fātimiyyūn (الفاطميون) in that year though it got its current name in 973 CE. 

If later, and esp. “modern” times, then it is definitely as Maha says; which, btw, is what I feel it is. In that case I have been duly subdued by Cairo = القاهرة‎ / The Subduer / Vitricix / The Victorious!

All this has been very interesting & informative for me!


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## Nadia_Taliba

Faylasoof said:


> Thanks Maha and Cherine! You both have solved a puzzle for me, I think! Well, it goes like this.
> 
> Firstly, it is interesting to know that Cairo's nick-name is مصر (pronounced _Misr_ / _Masr_ [?]; I’ve heard the latter too). Also, concerning this point:
> 
> 
> Actually, this was precisely the reason why I initially thought this سويس is not the Egyptian Suez but the town in western Saudi Arabia of the same name. Although that is a long way from Egypt, borders of countries and empires in the past were shifting from time to time. I assumed that the writer was relating events of a time when, say, the Fatimid Egyptian empire was growing and hadn’t yet reached the Two Holy Cities (الحرمين). [This سويس is I think is near / in the Medina province. No idea how old either this سويسor the Egyptian سويس are.] All this, plus some other points, left me quite puzzled.
> 
> So I have a question for Nadia: What is the timeline for this text? Which period are we talking of?
> 
> If it is talking of events in the Middle Ages, and esp. prior to 969 CE, then this مصر is Egypt and not Cairo, as the city was founded by al-Fātimiyyūn (الفاطميون) in that year though it got its current name in 973 CE.
> 
> If later, and esp. “modern” times, then it is definitely as Maha says; which, btw, is what I feel it is. In that case I have been duly subdued by Cairo = القاهرة‎ / The Subduer / Vitricix / The Victorious!
> 
> All this has been very interesting & informative for me!




Its in about 728 CE so although Cairo makes more sense it seems to be referring to Egypt by your deductions?


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## Faylasoof

Nadia_Taliba said:


> Its in about 728 CE so although Cairo makes more sense it seems to be referring to Egypt by your deductions?



Thanks Nadia! So it does  look like a reference to Egypt, unless of course there was another city that got the same nick-name before Cairo was founded. 

Also, given the date, it means that the town called سويس is perhaps Suez, now in Egypt but then apprently not considered part of the Egyptian province of the Islamic Empire. I assume it'll be this town if this phrase  ثلاث مراحل من مصر is taken to mean <3 days from Egypt>, depending on where exactly was the border of the province at the time. 

The other سويس, if it existed then, could also be implied if we assume that the same  phrase means <3 stages from Egypt>, the distance of a stage not being specified and perhaps large .  

Just shows how hard it is to have an accurate translation as we are now relying on not just on language and grammar but also history and geography.


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## ayed

مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر قبل أن يصل إليها. نعوذ بالله من سوء الخاتمة 
_Before reaching and at a three-stage distance from Egypt, he died at a place called Suez.We seek refuge in God from a bad end!_

In light of Faylasoof's translation and if allowed , I would say as in blue.

*مات بموضع يقال له سويس*
*هذا الموضع(سويس)على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر*
*مات قبل أن يصل إلى مصر* 
------------------
*Rule*_: a reflexive pronoun usually refers to the nearset antecedent._


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## Faylasoof

Good one Ayed! If I had a second go, I would do it something like this.


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## Mahaodeh

Nadia_Taliba said:


> Its in about 728 CE so although Cairo makes more sense it seems to be referring to Egypt by your deductions?


 
Actually, referring to the city makes more sense now. Cairo was not built in an empty space, in 641 there was an old Roman fort in the area, when Amr ibn al-A'aS entered Egypt he built al-fusTaaT just to the north of the fort, exactly between جبل المقطم and the Nile (hence using natural fortification rather than building a fort). Since that day, al-fusTaaT was referred to as مصر. When al-mu3izz li-deen illah al-faaTimi created Cairo and gave it the name, he merged al-fusTaaT with a small town just to the north called al-manSooriyya built less than a decade earlier by the previous ruler (forgot his name) to be his place of resendence.

Naturally, within a few years the two cities merged because it was the capital of Egypt. al-fusTaaT's nick name, miSr (or maSr), naturally extended to include the new metro-politan, al-qaahira.

I hope this is not getting out of the subject, I just thought that the historical background has some connection with the naming.


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## Nadia_Taliba

thanks mahodeh that was a lovely insight into the history


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## Faylasoof

Mahaodeh said:


> I hope this is not getting out of the subject, I just thought that the historical background has some connection with the naming.


 I too feel this is relevant for both the accuracy of the sentence under discussion as well as for future translations of the word مصر. It _is_ important to know, which is why I asked this:




Faylasoof said:


> Thanks Nadia! So it does look like a reference to Egypt, unless of course there was another city that got the same nick-name before Cairo was founded.


 I had known of al-Mansooriyyah (built, BTW, by the Fatimid general Gawhar al-Siqilli) and al-Fustaat which you mention above, and later found out that the former was also variously called Misr al-Fustat / Fustat-Misr (<- link)! However I was a bit hesitant to come back to this thread because I felt I might be accused of raking over old coals. But this is relevant & important information and we need to include it in the translation.

So, Ayed with your permission it now becomes: 

مات بموضع يقال له سويس على مسافة ثلاث مراحل من مصر قبل أن يصل إليها. نعوذ بالله من سوء الخاتمة

Before reaching and at a three-stage distance from Misr al-Fustat / Fustat-Misr, he died at a place called Suez. We seek refuge in God from a bad / sorry end!

... and thank you Maha for  further clarification and resurrecting the thread!


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## Nadia_Taliba

I was re-reading the text, and it looks like Mahaodeh was right

the sentence that follows the sentence in the first post is:

والمراد بمصر هنا هي الفسطاط، وإلا فإن سويس من مصر  

thanks again to everyone, especially Mahaodeh


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## Mahaodeh

Your are very welcome.


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## Faylasoof

Nadia_Taliba said:


> .....
> 
> the sentence that follows the sentence in the first post is:
> 
> والمراد بمصر هنا هي الفسطاط، وإلا فإن سويس من مصر
> 
> thanks again to everyone, especially Mahaodeh



I see Nadia! So you found the sentence that followed! Including it would have saved us all that to-and fro!

Anyway, here is the Quranic use of مصر :  

​*سُوۡرَةُ**البَقَرَة*​ٱهۡبِطُواْ مِصۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّ لَڪُم مَّا سَأَلۡتُمۡ*ۗ...
(﻿٦١﻿)

Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. (2:61) - Pickthal

Go ye down to any town and ye shall find what ye want! (2:61) – Yusuf Ali


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