# Personal names of Germanic origins in Romance languages



## dihydrogen monoxide

How did the personal names of Germanic origin, such as (Richard,Charles,Henry etc.) become so popular in Romance languages, while the Roman names have not survived in massive numbers?


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## berndf

Classical Latin had only about 20 first names. They were completely replaced by the system of Christian names. The few that survived, like _Marc_, did so because they also were Christian names.


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## Cenzontle

What is the link between Germanic names and Christianity?


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## Awwal12

Cenzontle said:


> What is the link between Germanic names and Christianity?


Very obviously, a lot of Christian saints of Germanic origin were venerated in Romance-speaking areas as well.
However, the Germanic dominance over most Romance-speaking areas from the 5th to the 7th-8th century could also make some input.


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## Cossue

Awwal12 said:


> However, the Germanic dominance over most Romance-speaking areas from the 5th to the 7th-8th century could also make some input



Agree. In Galicia, NW Iberia, if you record the personal names used in the charters up to 1000AD you have that 70-80% of the population used a Germanic name, of a pool of some 2000-3000 names, most of them also Germanic, with a minority of Roman, Christian, Romance, and pre-Latin local names; these Germanic names had a clear South/East Germanic character, related to the names of the Suebi who settled locally in the 5th century and to the Visigoths who annexed their kingdom some 180 year later.

Later, during the 12th century this Germanic inspired onomastic system, with people using one single name, was mostly substituted by a system composed of one name + patronimical, with a huge increase of the popularity of Christian names; during that century many/most Germanic names that were not related to a saint or a King (v.g. _Rodrigo_, _Rosendo_, _Ramiro_, _Elvira_, _Fernando_, _Afonso_, _Bermudo_, etc.) felt out of use.


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## berndf

Cenzontle said:


> What is the link between Germanic names and Christianity?


I don't think there is any. The replacement of classical Roman first names and the dissemination of Germanic names from the Germanic ruling classes into the general population were separate developments happening at different times.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> Classical Latin had only about 20 first names. They were completely replaced by the system of Christian names. The few that survived, like _Marc_, did so because they also were Christian names.



Upper-class Romans normally had three names: praenomen, nomen and cognomen. As Bernd says, the number of praenomina was very small, but we should not overlook the other types of names. In the first centuries of the Christian era many Jews had both a Semitic name and a Roman name, like the Biblical John Mark, or the historian Flavius Josephus. Beginning in the Renaissance we see the revival of Roman nomina and cognomina as “Christian” names, e.g. Julius > Jules.


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## Dymn

I don't know about the but around 30% of the babies born in Catalonia in 2016 had a Latin names, including:

Boys: _Marc, Martí, Pol, Pau, Leo, Lucas, Víctor, Adrià, Lluc, Oriol, Martín, Adrián, Pablo, Max_
Girls: _Martina, Júlia/Julia, Lucía, Paula, Clàudia/Claudia, Valèria/Valeria, Valentina, Olívia/Olivia, Marina, Laura
_
Correct me if I'm wrong. _Pol _and _Pau _come from _Paulus_, _Lluc _from _Lucas_, _Oriol _from _Aureolus_. The rest are transparent enough.

So I wouldn't say Roman names are rare.


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## Penyafort

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> How did the personal names of Germanic origin, such as (Richard,Charles,Henry etc.) become so popular in Romance languages, *while the Roman names have not survived in massive numbers?*



While we could discuss about the first part, I do not agree with the second one. That is, if by 'Roman' we also include all names coming from Latin.

These were the 15 top names for babies here in Catalonia in 2016 (I add the origin for them and clarify it with colours, red for the Latin ones, blue for the Germanic):

Boys: 1) *Marc *< Latin | 2) *Àlex *(< Latin) < Greek | 3) *Jan *(< Latin) (< Greek) < Hebrew | 4) *Martí *< Latin | 5) *Hugo *(< Latin) < Germanic: Frankish | 6) Biel (Catalan short form of Gabriel) (< Latin) < Hebrew | 7) *Eric *< Old Norse | 8) *Pol *< Latin | 9) *Pau *< Latin | 10) *Nil *< Latin? (< Greek?) | 11) *Leo *< Latin | 12) *Lucas *< Latin < Greek | 13) *Aleix *(< Aleix) < Greek | 14) *Arnau *(< Latin) < Germanic | 15) *Daniel *(< Latin) < Hebrew

Girls: 1) *Martina *< Latin | 2) *Júlia *< Latin | 3) *Laia *(Catalan short for Eulàlia) (< Latin) < Greek | 4) *Lucía *< Latin | 5) *Maria *< Latin < Greek < Hebrew| 6) *Emma *(< Latin) < Germanic | 7) *Noa *(< Latin?) < Hebrew | 8) *Paula *< Latin | 9) *Ona *(Catalan: "wave" < Latin _unda_) | 10) *Aina *(Catalan variant of Anna) < Latin < Greek < Hebrew | 11) *Carla *(< Latin) < Germanic | 12) *Sofia *(< Latin) < Greek | 13) *Arlet *(Catalan form of Arlette) < Germanic | 14) *Abril *< Latin | 15) *Sara *(< Latin) < Hebrew

As one can see, and even not considering Latin those which entered the Romance languages via Latin but from other origins, names such as the ones in red are still massive. In Catalonia, Marc has been leading the top for a long time, and so have Martina and Júlia. Same thing for Pau and Paula. So I don't quite agree with the second part of the sentence.

This said, I agree that Germanic names are one of the four big sources (along with Greek and Hebrew) for names in the Romance languages (and much of Europe). But I'd say some things have to be taken into account. Many of them entered via a Latinized form, specially those related to Christianity. Some passed from one Romance language to another, not necessarily from a direct Germanic source. And not all of them were suddenly spread in the times Germanic peoples ruled in Romance land. Trends then were not as ephemeral as today, when a generation is named after some TV heros but the next one chooses different ones. The trend was still there long before there were Germanic rulers. In Iberia, for instance, Germanic names would be given during the Reconquista so as to evoke the times of Christian kings and heroes. Some have even mentioned phonetic reasons and several other causes. Probably there were several factors for them being so catchy during centuries. It must be said, though, that many that were common in those times (Gonzalo, Urraca, Guifré...) have almost disappeared today.

EDIT: It looks like Dymn and I coincided in our thoughts, lol. Take it as a complementary comment then.


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## berndf

Penyafort said:


> While we could discuss about the first part, I do not agree with the second one.


Out of the boy names you listed, only _Marc_ is a Roman first name.

Regarding the girls names, _Julia_ is the result of a later re-introduction of Roman name (see fdb's post), from _Julius_, which wasn't a first name but a nomen generis, re-used as a first name.

Mind you, the question is about _Roman_ names, not about _Latin_ names.


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## Penyafort

berndf said:


> Out of the names you listed, only _Marc_ is a Roman first name.
> 
> Mind you, the question is about _Roman_ names, not about _Latin_ names.



That is why I already said "if by Roman we include all names from Latin". There were just about a dozen common Roman _praenomina _and even in Roman times the focus or origin of most later names would be out of them.


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## berndf

Penyafort said:


> There were just about a dozen common Roman _praenomina _and even in Roman times the focus or origin of most later names would be out of them.


Yes. That is the point of the question.


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## Circunflejo

Dymn said:


> Leo





Dymn said:


> The rest are transparent enough.



Leo isn't transparent enough for me. It's that short of Leonardo? Leopold? Leocadio (I'm not sure about how's said this one in Catalan)? Some other name?



Penyafort said:


> *Leo *< Latin



I guess it depends on the origin that you want to give to the name (see above). If it was short of Leopold, it would be germanic, wouldn't it?



Penyafort said:


> It must be said, though, that many that were common in those times (Gonzalo, Urraca, Guifré...) have almost disappeared today.



Gonzalo is well alive here in Castile.


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## Penyafort

berndf said:


> Yes. That is the point of the question.



By that I meant that Latin-based names were also usually formed not taking those praenomina into account, specially among the common people, which were the bulk of the Romans in the Empire. So I don't quite see how they could not be considered Roman too. Paulus is an obvious Latin word meaning "little, small". That it was not one of the praenomina but just a nickname which would end as a cognomen which would end as a name doesn't make it less Roman to my eyes.



Circunflejo said:


> Leo isn't transparent enough for me. It's that short of Leonardo? Leopold? Leocadio (I'm not sure about how's said this one in Catalan)? Some other name?
> 
> I guess it depends on the origin that you want to give to the name (see above). If it was short of Leopold, it would be germanic, wouldn't it?



Well, on a second thought, it looks quite obvious that the popularity for that Leo must stem from that of the football player Messi. If so, his actual name is Lionel Messi. Lionel is a French diminutive for Leon, so eventually, we end up again in a Graeco-Latin origin for the name.



Circunflejo said:


> Gonzalo is well alive here in Castile.



Is it? Let's change it for Fruela or Gundesvindo then.


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## berndf

Penyafort said:


> So I don't quite see how they could not be considered Roman too.


They simpley weren't. Paulus wasn't a first name in pre-Christian Rome. Or can you give any example?



Penyafort said:


> Paulus is an obvious Latin word meaning "little, small".


If something is a Latin word this doesn't make it a Roman name. Pedo is a Spanish word. Does thus make it a Mexican name?


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## fdb

berndf said:


> They simpley weren't. Paulus wasn't a first name in pre-Christian Rome. Or can you give any example?



Paullus (praenomen) - Wikipedia


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## berndf

Yes, but _Paullus_ and _Paulus_ are different names and not just spelling variation. _Paulus_ is the Latin adaptation of a Greek name, isn't it?


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> Is it?



Yes, it is. In Catalonia, both Gonçal (Catalan versión of the name) and Gonzalo (Castilian version of the name) are almost lost (the former even more than the latter) but, in Castile and some other areas of Spain, Gonzalo is well alive. You may take a look at the web of the INE for personal names and surnames (Nombres y apellidos) where you can look for the frequency of whatever name or surname you wanted to search. It gives you its frecuency of use by province as well as the average age of the people with that name (note that the average age of people named Gonzalo is lower then the one of people named Jordi, to quote an example of name well alive in Catalonia).



Penyafort said:


> Let's change it for Fruela or Gundesvindo then.



 

P.S.: Among Urraca, Fruela, Gundesvindo and Guifré, the latter is the only one that seems to be coming back as there's some young people named that way.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> Yes, but _Paullus_ and _Paulus_ are different names and not just spelling variation. _Paulus_ is the Latin adaptation of a Greek name, isn't it?



The adjective paul(l)us and the prae- and cognomen Paul(l)us both occur with single and with double “l”.

patulus - Dictionnaire Gaffiot français-latin - Page 1127

The adjective pau(l)lus is considered to be Latin, cognate either with parvus or with paucus (the details are contested).


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## Sardokan1.0

In Sardinia due to geographical isolation the Germanic names are almost inexistent, most of people have Latin names or Christian names of Jew origin; there aren't saints with Germanic names in Sardinia, most of the saints have Latin or Jew names or Greek (Sardinia used the Byzantine lithurgy until XIIth century).

some *Sardinian *names :



Spoiler




Pedru 
Paulu
Antóni
Ànghelu, Àndzelu (Angelus)
Juanne
Costantíne (vocative of Constantinus; many Sardinian names seem to be vocatives)
Deomídri
Basíle (Basilius)
Caderina, Cadarina, Cadrina (Catherina)
Frantziscu
Heléne
Billía (it's the same of the English "Bill", diminutive of William)
Gavíne/Gabíne/Gaíne (vocative of Gabinus, he was a Sardinian martyr)
Èfis (Ephisius, the most venerated saint of Sardinia, he was originary of Antiochia, Siria)
Simplíe (from "Simplice", vocative of Simplicius)
Bàchis (Latin "Bacchisius" = son/servant of Bacchus)
Ilianu (Julianus)
Jorzi (from Greek "Ghiorghios")
Lisandru (Alexander)
Mariane (vocative of Marianus)
Martíne (vocative of Martinus)
Larentu (Laurentius)
Lùtziu (Lucius)
Lutzianu (Lucianus)
Luchía, Lughía (Lucia)
Tharesa (Theresa)
Thòmas
Remundu, Remunda (this one is Germanic, "_Reimund, Raginmund, Raymond"_)
Gonare, Gunare (another Germanic name, documented in Sardinia since IXth century as Gunnare or Gunnari, it's probably a residue of the Vandal occupation during Vth century, it's similar to the Scandinavian "Gunnar").
Jacu/Jagu (Jacomus)
Servadore/Serbadore (Latin "Servator" = guardian)
Sebustianu (Sebastian)
Istévene (Stefanus)
Ìtria (shortened version of the Greek "Holy Virgin Hodigitria", patron saint of Costantinople).


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## OBrasilo

Sardokan1.0 said:
			
		

> Frantziscu


This one is also of Germanic origins, specifically Frankish _frengisk_ (from the same adjective, we also have the word "Frankish").


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## Olaszinhok

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Sardinia due to geographical isolation the Germanic names are almost inexistent, most of people have Latin names or Christian names of Jew origin; there aren't saints with Germanic names in Sardinia, most of the saints have Latin or Jew names or Greek (Sardinia used the Byzantine lithurgy until XIIth century).



I have a hard time understanding your post, because most Sardinian people I know do have Italian names, regardless of their Latin or Germanic origin.

I nomi dei sardi? Boom di Sofia e Riccardo, spariti Efisio e Bonaria  - Cronaca - la Nuova Sardegna


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## Sardokan1.0

Olaszinhok said:


> I have a hard time understanding your post, because most Sardinian people I know do have Italian names, regardless of their Latin or Germanic origin.
> 
> I nomi dei sardi? Boom di Sofia e Riccardo, spariti Efisio e Bonaria  - Cronaca - la Nuova Sardegna



It's simple, when speaking in Italian the names are in Italian, but when speaking in Sardinian we don't use the Italian names.


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