# Informal Questions: の, か, かい



## jbhden

I read an article recently on informal men and women's speech in Japanese, and the differences in sentence ending particles.  The article said that の was the most appropriate question particle for women, and かい the most appropriate for men.  The thing is, I've heard both used by men, and か also, and surely that's perfectly acceptable.

But I'm curious, what would be your impression of a guy that uses の to ask informal questions?  One that uses か?  One that uses かい?


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## akimura

Hi jbhden,

Could you give some example sentences from the article?  For now, I would use one basic example sentence and my observation to it as written below, but I am not sure whether these observations are what the article is about:

Example: "What are you doing?"

1. 何をしているの。
This is quite common, used both by men and women.

2. 何をしているのかい。
This is, well, something I (male, 30s) wouldn't often use, with some exceptions.  It sounds like a phrase used by men in at least his 60s or older today, or such generations when they were younger.

I would intentionally use it with a certain effect on my mind, often humorously; the effect is to make myself sound like a father to his child, a boss to his colleague, or a superior to his junior, etc. in the 1970s or before.  I actually use this かい to ask my students at the age of 12-15, in order to give myself a cetertain degree of authority.

Probably among those who were born by the end of World War ii (1945), husbands tend to use 何をしているのかい and wives accept this phrase.  I don't think this apply much to those who were born in around 1960s or later.

3. 何をしているのか。
The usage of this, gramatically acceptable though it may be, is extremely uncommon as an informal question asked by someone to the other; only limited to, well, three particular cases I can think of.

First, it may be used if someone shout at the other to scold him or her.  So this is more of an exclamation than a pure question.

The second case is, you ask to yourself, either only on your mind or out loud to yourself, about what the other is doing.

The third case is as an alternative to "何をしているのかい".  In this case, 何をしているのか sounds as if the speaker is already a little angry with the other.  I use this か to ask my students at the age of 12-15, since kids often do -- sigh -- something they make themselves, well, suspicious.  If this is not suspicious but obviously bad, then it becomes the first case, an exclamation.

4. 何をしていますか。
This is the most basic expression, somewhere between formal and informal, used instead of the informal "何をしているの。"  But the usage of this か may be off the topic because the article is about informal questions.


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## jbhden

Thank you, that was exactly the sort of response I was looking for.  Nevertheless, I would still like to hear others' impressions.

Some of the article's example sentences using かい:
1. 日本人なのかい?
2. きれいなのかい?
3. 行くかい?

I noticed that while most of the example sentences used かい there were a few that didn't:
1. 行かないか?
2. いつ行くんだい?
3. どれくらい高いんだ?

I'd like to know what sort of impression each of those sentences leaves about the speaker, as well.
Take into account, however, that the author of the article is not a native speaker.  If I remember correctly, he's been studying Japanese for 8 years and has been to Japan twice.


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## Morrow

jbhden said:


> The article said that の was the most appropriate question particle for women, and かい the most appropriate for men.


I'd say this conclusion is wrong.  "の" and "かい"　are actually not in complementary distribution, as your paper suggests.

"の"　works in (1) but "かい" does not.
(1) これどこで買った[の/***かい]?

You also need to pay attention to the "nature" of the question particle "の."

(2) a. 食べた?
　　　b. 食べたの?
(3) あれ、犬の餌だった[のよ<female>/んだよ<(fe)male>].

(3) can follow (2b) but not (2a).

Morrow


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## akimura

It's a tough question.  Let me partially give my opinion this time and gradually cover the rest later.



jbhden said:


> Some of the article's example sentences using かい:
> 1. 日本人なのかい?
> 2. きれいなのかい?
> 3. 行くかい?




1. 日本人なの？　vs 日本人なのかい？
2. きれいなの？ vs きれいなのかい？

As far as I could say from my experience of watching old Japanese movies produced in the 1950s - early 1970s, the former one for each (w/o かい) sounds like a phrase that were more likely to be used by females and the latter one for each (w/ かい) were more likely to be used by males.  I could be wrong.  This is just my impression.

If we shift our focus on to the usage from the 1980s to date, my impression becomes quite different.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of gender difference.　　Both questions in 1 and 2, with and without かい, can be used by males and females.　　It's more of a difference in nuance.  To me, the question without かい, sounds like a question that the speaker really tries to ask and is more curious to know if the answer is yes or no.  The question with かい, on the other hand, sounds like a question that the speaker is just checking and thus is less interested in the answer.  [Note: This impression also applies to the example in my former message: 何をしているの? vs 何をしているのかい？ I wish I could add a comment in my former message, but somehow, it's no longer editable.]

3. 行く？　行くの？　行くかい？　行くのかい？

行く？ and 行くかい? sounds as if the speaker is asking the hearer whether to go together.  行くの？ and 行くのかい？ sounds as if the speaker is asking the hearer whether to go, where the speaker is not going together.

3.1 行く？ vs 行くかい？
The difference is very sutble; virtually the same.

3.2 行くの？vs 行くのかい？
This is similar to items 1 & 2.  行くの？ sounds as if the speaker is asking whether the hearer is going or not.  行くのかい？ sounds as if the speaker is just checking that the hearer is going.


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## kaito

Morrow said:


> "の"　works in (1) but "かい" does not.
> (1) これどこで買った[の/***かい]?



Can anyone explain why かい doesn't work here ? I have this particle dictionary and the only thing it says about the い particle is that it's used for "emphasis" and "reinforces the interrogative" with か.


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## Flaminius

Wow, you have a very keen sense of grammar, *Morrow* (or you have the best vulgus book in town?  ).

In fact かい has already grown up to be something different from just an emphatic form of か.  A wh-question cannot end with かい (but のかい is okay).


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## akimura

kaito said:


> Can anyone explain why かい doesn't work here ? I have this particle dictionary and the only thing it says about the い particle is that it's used for "emphasis" and "reinforces the interrogative" with か.



Here is my observation:

[WH Questions, Past]
これどこで買ったの?　- OK (Where did you buy this?)
これどこで買ったのかい? - OK (Where did you buy this?  Or  
 .  Controversial.  Maybe becoming obsolete.  Sounds like a male question in the 1950s - 1960s.  Could be wrong.)
これどこで買ったかい?　

[Yes-No Questions, Past]
これ昨日買ったの?　- OK (Did you buy this yesterday? -- asking )
これ昨日買ったのかい?　- OK (Did you buy this yesterday? -- checking)
これ昨日買ったかい?　 ( or  still  but understandable, actually often used, in the sense that the speaker is just checking that the hearer bought this yesterday.  This may be controversial.)

[WH Questions, Future]
これどこで買うの?　- OK (Where will you buy this? or Where can we buy this?)
これどこで買うのかい?　- OK  (Where will you buy this? or Where can we buy this? -- grandpa/ma asking their grandchild)
これどこで買うかい?　- OK (Where shall we or will you buy this?)

[Yes-No Questions, Future]
これ明日買うの? - OK (Are you going to buy this tomorrow? --asking ) 
 これ明日買うのかい?　- OK (Are you going to buy this tomorrow? --checking, or grandpa/ma asking their grandchild)
これ明日買うかい?-  OK (Shall we or will you buy this tomorrow?)

I would assume that this topic could be controversial and that is why Japanese textbooks with a clear answer may not be readily available.

The questions that sounded like a grandpa/grandma talking, or a male talk in the 1950s-60s above, may be reinforcing my observation in prior message: the -のかい form sometimes sounds like a senior talking to a junior as well as older people, particularly those who were born before the World War II talking to their juniors.


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## kaito

akimura said:


> これどこで買うかい?　- OK (Where shall we or will you buy this?)



So it's okay to use かい in future wh questions ?

My own problem is mainly with the difference between かい and か (or just asking without any particle).

Supposedly it's a "yes/no question marker" but I keep seeing it in other questions aswell.


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## akimura

Hi kaito,



kaito said:


> So it's okay to use かい in future wh questions ?



Yes, although it may be controversial.  If you want to say, "Where will you buy this?", "これをどこで買うの？" is far more natural sentence than "これをどこで買うかい？".　　　　　　　　　　



kaito said:


> My own problem is mainly with the difference between かい and か (or just asking without any particle).



There may be exceptions -- I'll see if any --, but か is pretty much limited to 間接疑問文 or indirect questions as in:

私は彼女がどこでこれを買った（の）か知らない。
I don't know where she bought this.

私は彼がこれを買うのか知らない。
or 私は彼がこれを買う（の）かどうか知らない。
I don't know whether he will buy this.

The following examples (直接疑問文 or direct questions) are unacceptable:
あなたはどこでこれを買った（の）か？　
あなたは昨日これを買った（の）か？　​


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## kaito

Though I can imagine why か is not allowed there, it makes me wonder why かい should be allowed there.

Sorry for dwelling on details but that's kinda a habit of mine.


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## Morrow

kaito said:


> My own problem is mainly with the difference between かい and か (or just asking without any particle).


Too general a topic, indeed.  But this will give you some idea.  Let's use "食べる" to see what expressions are available when you want to ask informally about the intention of your addressee to eat.

(1) 食べる?

This is an unmarked question sentence.  Anything extra will make the sentence "marked."  It will imply the difference in the speaker's cognition. (Which is part of the reason I doubt the "quality" of the article as a research paper.  If you are a researcher, you should take this aspect into account.)

(2) 食べる*かい*?

You're offering part of something to share with because someone looks like they want to eat. 

Unfortunately, the supposed question marker "か" doesn't work here.  It just sounds too offending to your listener.

(3) ***食べる*か*?

If you do want to retain "か," the only fix I can think of is this.

(4) 食べ*よう*か?

But this is not to ask about the other party's volition.  The emphasis is now on togetherness.  

So the answer:
You can't deal with the zero-form (as in (1)), "かい" and "か" on the same scale.  You have to tackle them individually.  

Morrow


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## kaito

It sounds insulting because it would be roughly equivalent to saying "I can't tell if you're going to eat this" ?


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## jbhden

All this input has been very helpful, so thank you all!

Nevertheless, I'm still a bit confused.  From what I can tell, かい does not seem to be a very common question particle and is largely outdated, correct?  What, then, in your experience are the most common ways for males and females respectively to ask informal questions?

I hate to ask such a silly question, but I've only ever been taught formal speech, and unfortunately most of the material I've found online regarding informal questions is somewhat inconsistent.  I'm hoping you all can help clear things up for me a bit. 

I'd like to point out, also, that the article I read was not a research paper or anything very official.  It was just a blog entry entitled "How not to talk like a Japanese crossdresser" on "Tofugu".  The author is not a native speaker, but has been studying Japanese for 8 years, as I said before.  That's why I came here: for verification.


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## Morrow

jbhden said:


> What, then, in your experience are the most common ways for males and females respectively to ask informal questions?


I'd say the very premise is wrong.  As far as "real" questions are concerned, there is no significant gender difference.

Several years ago, KinKi Kids released a single called "Hey! みんな元気かい?," but the use of "かい" may be something only elderly people favor.  The same applies to "だい."  (You can use "だい" in wh-questions, as in "誰がそんな失礼なことを言った[んだい/***のかい]?", although you could say, "誰が言った***(の)かい?" or "そんな失礼なことを言ったのは誰(なの)かい? "  Acceptability seems to depend on the degree of proximity between a wh-word and a variant of "かい.")

When it comes to rhetorical questions, however, a gender difference may emerge:
(i) こんな遅くまでどこに行ってたんだ(?/.) <male>
(ii) こんな遅くまでどこに行ってたの(よ)(?/.) <female>

Morrow


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## Flaminius

Hello,

I am beginning to sense that this is more about stylistic.



Morrow said:


> Unfortunately, the supposed question marker "か" doesn't work here.  It just sounds too offending to your listener.
> 
> (3) ***食べる*か*?


It is usually understood as a rhetorical question (typically a male speech figure) by itself but in a reported speech it can be a genuine question: e.g., お前も食べるかと訊かれて、私ははいと答えた。

I still think のかい can be used with wh-questions (as opposed to かい).


Morrow said:


> The same applies to "だい."  (You can use "だい" in wh-questions, as in "誰がそんな失礼なことを言った[んだい/OKのかい]?" (...)


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## kaito

Looks like I need to dig deeper, are there any (preferably lengthy) resources on this topic ? in Japanese, English or German preferably.


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## akimura

s





Morrow said:


> (3) ***食べる*か*?



I've leared a great deal from Morrow-san's insight.  I am not a linguist after all.  But as a native Japanese speaker, I may be able to make some sort of  testimony.  食べるか？ does not work as a generic "Will you eat?" question, but in a very limited context, I feel males might use this to ask someone close or younger to do something together.  The following is an example:


Father: We must wait for Mother to come back before we get to eat the cake.
Child: Okay.

_Thirty minutes later...

_Child: I wonder what Mother is still doing at work.
Father: Me, too.  Okay, there's no point in waiting forever.  食べるか？（Shall we eat?）
Child: Yes, let's!

Sometimes I may say a different thing in a different message.  But it seems the obervation I made this time happens to be consistent with what I wrote in previous messages, so I think that there has to be something true here.

Note that if "Mother" and "Father" were in  each other's place, "Mother" would most likely say "食べようか？" in the above example.


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## theartofbreath

Lately I've been attempting to expand my Nihongo for more casual uses and my question now is regarding the use of "ka" for casual conversations.  

Would you still stick "ka" at the end of informal verb? for example...

would "*doko ni imasu* *ka*"

become "*doko ni iru ka*"?

how about "*pan o tabemasu ka*"?

Would it become "*pan o taberu ka*"?

I literally have came across no examples of questions in the casual form and have no Idea what they would look like.


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## kyn

So, for a young man, which is more natural to ask (and most likely to hear from other young men):
- どこへ行く？ 
- どこへ行くの？
- どこへ行くんだ？


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