# Spanish/Arabic "mezquin(o)"



## Tracer

*"MEZQUINO" IN OTHER EUROPEAN LANGUAGES??*

Spanish *MEZQUINO* (poor fellow, sad sack etc) is a direct borrowing from Arabic * MESKEEN مسكين* and has the same meaning in both languages.

_*(MEZQUIN(O), and the word FULAN(O) (so and so), are among the very few borrowings that are pronounced exactly the same in Arabic and Spanish and have the exact same meanings)*_

*My specific question is:  Does the word MEZQUINO or similar exist in any other Iberian languages (Catalan, Portuguese, etc) or any other European languages?*

Thanks in advance for your comments.


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## origumi

French, Italian: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mesquin
Romanian, Catalan, Provençal: http://www.myetymology.com/french/mesquin.html

I saw articles that suppose (remote) Sumerian origin, via Akkadian. This is the suspected word:


> mašga'en [STATUS] wr. MAŠ.EN.KAK; MAŠ.KAK "a social status or profession". Akk. muškēnu [4]


http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html

... ok, the link is not directly to the word, look under letter M.


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## Christo Tamarin

Tracer said:


> *My specific question is: Does the word MEZQUINO or similar exist in any other Iberian languages (Catalan, Portuguese, etc) or any other European languages?*
> 
> Thanks in advance for your comments.


 
Bulgarian: http://www.eurodict.com/МИСКИНИН+searchid-22651-ed_bg_en.html

Turkish: http://www.eurodict.com/MISKIN+searchid-59729-ed_tr_en.html


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## Outsider

In Portuguese: _mesquinho_. The meaning is the same as in Spanish, as near as I can tell.


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## cherine

I don't think this thread belongs here (rather the OL forum) but anyway, I'd like to note that the meaning in the Spanish and the French languages (the only languages I can speak about here) is different from the meaning in Arabic.
It's true that a مسكين is a poor person, but in Spanish, mesquino/a is someone who's mean, petty, vile or stingy. (check the dictionary). The same goes for the French mesquin(e).


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## Frank06

I never heard it in Dutch, but the dictionary does mention it:
mesquin:
(1824) Fr. <It. meschino (behoeftig) <Ar. miskin
bekrompen, kleingeestig
narrow-minded, close-minded


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## tFighterPilot

I know it wasn't your question, but it also exists in Hebrew. Misken מסכן means exactly the same thing.


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## Edguoglitigin

origumi said:


> French, Italian: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mesquin
> Romanian, Catalan, Provençal: http://www.myetymology.com/french/mesquin.html
> 
> I saw articles that suppose (remote) Sumerian origin, via Akkadian. This is the suspected word:
> 
> http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html
> 
> ... ok, the link is not directly to the word, look under letter M.



Actually, I do not know Arabic grammar, but I know Arabic word formation. And I can say that the word's triple root is S-K-N and it means "being in peace, rest or being settled down in any place". In Turkey Turkish _miskin_ means "lazy, sad, poor". Thus it is related to being static. Because of this fact, the word shouldnt be corresponded to Sumerian variants, I think.


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## Abu Rashid

I don't think the s-k-n link can really be made.

The letter 'sin' in Arabic is actually a merger of two separate letters, which in other Semitic languages like Hebrew are called sin and samek. As mentioned above miskin exists in Hebrew and it's spelt with samek not sin (actually it'd be shin in Hebrew).

At the same time the root shin-kaf-noon does exist in Hebrew as well, meaning dwell, settle, down, be at rest, indicating the word miskin is not linked to this root.

It's not completely unknown for samek and shin to be confused in Hebrew, but it does make this link to the root less likely especially since the word miskin doesn't appear to follow any standard Arabic pattern of derivation from s-k-n.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Rashid said:


> especially since the word miskin doesn't appear to follow any standard Arabic pattern of derivation from s-k-n.



That's not accurate, it follows the form مِفعيل which is وزن سماعي لصيغ المبالغة and has later become قياسي, other examples are منطيق ومعطير ومحضير. The derivations that classical linguists considered to be سماعي can not be excluded from "standard" Arabic or else we will loose words like فاروق وهُمَزَة وسكّير وطُوال وكُبَّار. Many of them were in fact used in classical times.


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## Abu Rashid

Shukran ya Maha, I've never come across that wazn before, it's certainly not a standard (or common) one, hence my disclaimer "doesn't appear to follow"

Either way, in both Hebrew & Aramaic, the two words seem based on different roots, as both have samek for miskin, but shin for the root meaning "to dwell" (s-k-n in Arabic), as Arabic merged these two letters, then it would be more accurate to check with cognate languages that still distinguished them.


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## Tracer

cherine said:


> ... I'd like to note that the meaning in the Spanish and the French languages is different from the meaning in Arabic.
> It's true that a مسكين is a poor person, but in Spanish, mesquino/a is someone who's mean, petty, vile or stingy. (check the dictionary). The same goes for the French mesquin(e).


 
Well, according to the Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy, one of the meanings of "mezquino" is precisely the same in Spanish as it is in Arabic: *pobre, necesitado, falto de lo necesario* (all of which mean "poor"). It also has other meanings, such as "tiny, diminutive" (depending on the context).

It also shows the etymology of the word......supposedly going back to Akkadian.

If you read Spanish, you can see it all by going to the URL below and typing in "*mezquino*" on the upper right window.

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=cultura


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## ancalimon

Could it be related to EZİK we use in Turkish?  It means someone who has low status, loser, inept, oppressed.  Also bruise (because it's related to EZMEK: squeeze,crush)

Maybe also related to ESKİ: old

This is just a guess though.


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## Abu Rashid

Ancalimon said:
			
		

> Maybe also related to ESKİ: old



Maybe also related to Australian English ESKY: a drink cooler.


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## cherine

Tracer said:


> Well, according to the Dictionary of the Spanish Royal Academy, one of the meanings of "mezquino" is precisely the same in Spanish as it is in Arabic: *pobre, necesitado, falto de lo necesario* (all of which mean "poor"). It also has other meanings, such as "tiny, diminutive" (depending on the context).
> 
> It also shows the etymology of the word......supposedly going back to Akkadian.


Hi Tracer,
I'm sorry if my previous post was not clear. I was talking about the _current_ usage/meaning of the word. You can't use mezquino/a in Spanish these days to mean poor.
The dictionary of the RAE gives these meanings for the word:



> *1. *adj. Que escatima excesivamente en el gasto.
> *2. *adj. Falto de nobleza de espíritu.
> *3. *adj. Pequeño, diminuto.
> *4. *adj. p. us. Pobre, necesitado, falto de lo necesario.


The first meaning is miser بخيل , the second is mean, doesn't have a noble spirit (?) دنيء/وضيع , the third is small.
And the fourth, marked as "poco usado" (=not used frequently), is the meaning of poor. This is why I said that the meaning is different. These days, you can't use confidently the Spanish mezquino with the meaning of poor, lest you get misunderstood.
And, as far as I know, the same goes for French.


ancalimon said:


> Could it be related to EZİK we use in Turkish? It means someone who has low status, loser, inept, oppressed. Also bruise (because it's related to EZMEK: squeeze,crush)
> 
> Maybe also related to ESKİ: old
> 
> This is just a guess though.


No, Ancalimon. Here's the etymology provided by the Spanish dictionary:
(Del ár. hisp. _miskín_, este del ár. clás. _miskīn_, este del arameo _miskēn[ā],_ y este del acadio _muškēnu[m]_, súbdito de palacio).
A rough translation:
From Arabic _miskīn_, which comes from the Aramaic _miskēn[ā]_, which in turn comes from Acadian _muškēnu[m]_, which meant palace subject (servant?).

So it doesn't have any relation with Turkish. Sorry.


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## Tracer

cherine said:


> I was talking about the _current_ usage/meaning of the word. You can't use mezquino/a in Spanish these days to mean poor.


 
Hi Cherine - Such a little word, such a huge controversy!!  

You're right about the modern usage of "mezquino" in Spanish.....it's not used to mean poor in the sense that it would describe someone who has no money or wealth. I agree.

But I think the problem here is not with "mezquino" but with "poor". Let's see if you agree with this:

1. ENG "poor" SP "pobre" not only means someone without money, it can also very often mean someone who is "wretched" or "pathetic" or "miserable" without reference to his actual wealth.

Thus in English and Spanish we have the very common terms: POOR DEVIL, POBRE DIABLO meaning that you feel sorry (for some reason) for someone. For example if you saw someone get hit by a car, you could easily say either of those terms. (In Spanish, you could simply say POBRE! but you couldn't just say POOR in English.)

So the question remains: Can MESKEEN in Arabic also be used to describe someone you feel sorry for? Not because he's necessarily POOR (without money) but because he's just been hit by a car (or similar?) I think it can....I've used it that way myself......YAAAA MESKEEEEEEN !!! (You poor devil, you miserable wretch, you pathetic rascal etc). SHOOF EL-MESKEEN DA ! (Look at that pathetic person).

Could you, for example, call Madame Mubarak MESKEENA when she had a heart attack while being interrogated in Cairo recently? Not because she was without money (far from it), but because you felt sorry for her?

Anyway, it is with this meaning that I originally made my statement that Spanish MEZQUINO has the same meaning as Arabic MESKEEN.

Merci 'awi for your comments.


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## cherine

Tracer said:


> So the question remains: Can MESKEEN in Arabic also be used to describe someone you feel sorry for? Not because he's necessarily POOR (without money) but because he's just been hit by a car (or similar?)


Of course. That's one of the meaning of miskiin in [colloquial?] Arabic. And it's the equivalent of the English "poor", the Spanish "pobre" and the French "pauvre".
But, neither the Spanish "mezquino" nor the French "mesquin" have that meaning.


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## Tracer

cherine said:


> Of course. That's one of the meaning of miskiin in [colloquial?] Arabic. And it's the equivalent of the English "poor", the Spanish "pobre" and the French "pauvre".
> But, neither the Spanish "mezquino" nor the French "mesquin" have that meaning.


 
Yes, I see what you mean now. 

In the Spanish dictionary, "mezquino" appears with the meaning of "pobre" or "desgraciado" (pathetic, wretched) but these meanings are "obsolete" so Spanish "mezquino" can't be used to mean what "miskiin" means in modern Arabic. It's lost that meaning in Spanish. Interesting.

_*(No wonder the Spanish side of my family has been looking at me curiously the last couple of years when I talk with them. I've used "mezquino" on several occasions in conversations with them AS IF it had the same meaning as Arabic "miskiin"!! Course, that's because few Spanish speakers really use the word "mezquino" anyway or have even heard of it. It's not a very high frequency word at all in modern Spanish. Only my great-grandmother looked at me wistfully so I guess she understood.) *_


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## Abu Rashid

Tracer said:
			
		

> Could you, for example, call Madame Mubarak MESKEENA when she had a  heart attack while being interrogated in Cairo recently? Not because she  was without money (far from it), but because you felt sorry for her?



Surely you mean to use it with sarcasm here?


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## Mahaodeh

I don't know how Tracer meant to use it, but the word is indeed used to mean "poor" in the sense of "poor guy, he was hurt". It can also be used to mean "weak" in the sense that ليس بيديه شيء.


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## Tracer

Abu Rashid said:


> Surely you mean to use it with sarcasm here?


 

Not really. I did feel sorry for her. I really did think she was "miskiina".

I've always had a "soft spot" for the descendants of fallen dynasties. I remember some of the descendants of the last Ottoman Sultan wandering around the capitals of Europe trying to recoup some of their glory. You can still run into King Farouk's grandson aimlessly walking around the streets of downtown Cairo looking for someone to relate to. It even happened in my family when we lost all our lands. We are all "mezquinos".


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## Abu Rashid

The true masakeen are those who have suffered for her to live her life of affluence.


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