# EN: Si j'avais su



## max296

Hi,

What's the correct form to say " Si j'avais su..." for instance in " Si j'avais su, j'aurais acheté la voiture "

is it "If I had known I would have bought the car" or "If I would have known, I would have bought the car"

I guess it's the first form but I've got a little doubt

Thanks


----------



## timpeac

max296 said:


> Hi,
> 
> What's the correct form to say " Si j'avais su..." for instance in " Si j'avais su, j'aurais acheté la voiture "
> 
> is it "If I had known I would have bought the car" or "If I would have known, I would have bought the car"
> 
> I guess it's the first form but I've got a little doubt
> 
> Thanks


It is the first form. I remember the first time I heard "if I would have done, I would have said" form - it was in an ABBA song (I forget which), and I remember thinking to myself it was surprising they made such a mistake because their English is normally so good, and moreover I would have thought someone would have pointed out the error. Since then, and in these forums, I've become aware that some native speakers use "if I would have" instead of "if I had" (seems to be a US thing) and so I wouldn't like to say it's incorrect. I can certainly say that it still seemed to me like a non-native error at around the age of 13.


----------



## timpeac

I did a quick google search on ABBA and "I would have" and I came across this

But if *I* *would have* to choose I wouldn't let you go

For me this should be "But if I had to choose I wouldn't let you go".


----------



## joueurdebasson

timpeac said:


> It is the first form. I remember the first time I heard "if I would have done, I would have said" form - it was in an ABBA song (I forget which), and I remember thinking to myself it was surprising they made such a mistake because their English is normally so good, and moreover I would have thought someone would have pointed out the error. Since then, and in these forums, I've become aware that some native speakers use "if I would have" instead of "if I had" (seems to be a US thing) and so I wouldn't like to say it's incorrect. I can certainly say that it still seemed to me like a non-native error at around the age of 13.



How is this different from "If I would have known, I would have bought the car." I agree that normally I would use "If I had known, I would have bought the car." However, in your argument following your the same logic, shouldn't you say, "I thought someone would have pointed out the error." 

I realize this is not technically an "if" clause, but it does seem strange to use two past conditional clauses as opposed to an imperfect or pluperfect clause and a past conditional one.


----------



## Trisia

Actually I would insert an little word there:

_If *only *I had known, I would have bought the car_. It seems to me the sentence expresses regret.


----------



## tilt

joueurdebasson said:


> How is this different from "If I would have known, I would have bought the car." I agree that normally I would use "If I had known, I would have bought the car." However, in your argument following your the same logic, shouldn't you say, "I thought someone would have pointed out the error."


You can't apply timpeac's argument to this sentence because it doesn't begin with _if_, and that's a big difference.
In English as well as in French, it's incorrect to say _If I would have known, I would have bought the car_ (_Si j'aurais su, j'aurais acheté la voiture_), whereas there's no problem saying _I would have thought someone would have pointed out the error_ (_J'aurais cru que quelqu'un aurait signalé l'erreur_).


----------



## Xanthius

I agree: "_If I would have known..." i_s wrong.  No question.  Unfortunately it is used, especially on EastEnders!


----------



## donques

Could I add something please?

In spoken English, the double anterior past is commonly used.

An example: "_If I'd have known_ for just one second you'd be back to bother me."= If I had have known for just one second you would be back etc.
Another: "_If I'd have known_ that you were coming, I'd have baked a cake" = "If I had have known that you were coming, I would have baked a cake"

If you look at how the enclitics "_'d"_ modify the verbs in each song lyric, you can see how confusion can arise.

_'d_ can represent _had_ or _would._

One can see how Benny and Bjorn wanting the metre of the lyrics to  match the rhythm of the music "_'d_ _'ve"_ ( would have) made such a mistake.


----------



## mnewcomb71

If I would have known is NOT CORRECT.

If I had known is CORRECT.

Maybe even better:

Had I known...


----------



## donques

Good evening M Newcomb



mnewcomb71 said:


> If I would have known is NOT CORRECT.
> 
> If I had known is CORRECT.
> 
> Maybe even better:
> 
> Had I known...


 
If this reference is to my post, I think you'll find that I did not state that "I would have known" is grammatically acceptable in the context used by ABBA. I merely indicated how people can become confused because the same enclitic is used for _had_ and _would._


----------



## mnewcomb71

Good Evening donques,

No, it was not in response to your post, which I did understand.  It was in response to those who think that If + past conditional is correct.


----------



## Benoît abroad

For those who are interested for, many French spoken people make the same mistake, for instance:

Si j'aurais su (conditional), je ne serais pas venu (conditional).

The right sentence is:

Si j'avais su (past), je ne serais pas venu.

Anyway, for me, but also for most of my friends who (try to) speak English, the mistake you mentioned is very common and regular!


----------



## DearPrudence

Benoit abroad said:


> For those who are interested for, many French spoken people make the same mistake, for instance:
> 
> Si j'aurais su (conditional), je ne serais pas venu (conditional).
> 
> The right sentence is:
> 
> Si j'avais su (past), je ne serais pas venu.


In a famous film "la guerre des boutons",
Le petit Gibus says *« Si j'aurais su, j'aurais pas venu »*
Even more grammatically wrong.

I hear quite often children but also adults say "Si j'aurais", it simply hurts my sensible ears 

Actually I find it quite simple in English as it's the same as in French:
*"Si j'avais su, je ne serais pas venu"
"If I had know, I wouldn't have come"*


----------



## radagasty

DearPrudence said:


> Actually I find it quite simple in English as it's the same as in French:
> *"Si j'avais su, je ne serais pas venu"*
> *"If I had know, I wouldn't have come"*


 
The parallel between English and French goes even further. As in French, if I recall correctly, it is possible to discard the 'si', invert the subject and the verb, and cast the subordinate clause into the subjunctive mood, so too this is possible in English:

*"Eusse-je su, je ne fusse pas venu"*
*"Had I known, I wouldn't have come"*

The only difference is that whereas French uses the pluperfect subjunctive twice, English only has the pluperfect subjunctive in the subordinate clause, with the independent clause in the conditional perfect.


----------



## tilt

radagasty said:


> The parallel between English and French goes even further. As in French, if I recall correctly, it is possible to discard the 'si', invert the subject and the verb, and cast the subordinate clause into the subjunctive mood, so too this is possible in English:
> 
> *"Eusse-je su, je ne fusse pas venu"*
> *"Had I known, I wouldn't have come"*
> 
> The only difference is that whereas French uses the pluperfect subjunctive twice, English only has the pluperfect subjunctive in the subordinate clause, with the independent clause in the conditional perfect.


This sentence sounds very formal, and outdated, because of the subjunctive. But such a composition also allows setting both verbs in conditional tense without being incorrect: _L'aurais-je su, je ne serais pas venu._


----------



## Teafrog

mnewcomb71 said:


> Maybe even better:
> 
> Had I known...


Abso-completely-lutely 
As I was reading the threads, that was my feeling exactly. IMO, that's what most people would say, in our neck of the woods.


----------



## Montaigne

What about :Should I had known?


----------



## mnewcomb71

Montaigne...I could not even tell you what "Should I had known" would mean, sorry.


----------



## ChiMike

radagasty said:


> The parallel between English and French goes even further. As in French, if I recall correctly, it is possible to discard the 'si', invert the subject and the verb, and cast the subordinate clause into the subjunctive mood, so too this is possible in English:
> 
> *"Eusse-je su, je ne fusse pas venu"*
> *"Had I known, I wouldn't have come"*
> 
> The only difference is that whereas French uses the pluperfect subjunctive twice, English only has the pluperfect subjunctive in the subordinate clause, with the independent clause in the conditional perfect.


 
Although the inversion in the subjunctive is no longer used in French, you have pointed out the most important point here --- which is that the English construction is NOT the same as the modern French even when the construction is not inverted. "had known" is a PAST PERFECT (PLUPERFECT) SUBJUNCTIVE and it is used after "if" to indicate a statement contrary to fact. And, in early modern English (Shakespeare and the KJV), as in modern German, the verb in the apodosis as well as that in the protasis could be in the past perfect subjunctive to indicate that the entire statement referred to the past and that the entire statement was contrary to fact.

John 11:21 (KJV):

Then said Martha unto Jesus: Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
(Compare Revised Standard: If You had been here, my brother would not have died. --- How pedestrian - a whine instead of a lament!) 

We now use the  perfect conditional in the apodosis but most people still use the past perfect subjunctive in the protasis (even though many do not recognize it as the subjunctive and not the indicative). Those who do not are usually the same ones who say: "If he was here, you wouldn't be saying that" or even: "If he would be here...". (Yikes!)

In sentences such as: "I would have thought that someone would have pointed it out" most speakers now substitute a past conditional for the past subjunctive of speculation: "and I had thought that...". All this happens because in the past tense of "have" the indicative and subjunctive forms became phonologically identical - "had" for all, and, in general, the subjunctive is not well understood by most English speakers.


----------



## radagasty

tilt said:


> This sentence sounds very formal, and outdated, because of the subjunctive. But such a composition also allows setting both verbs in conditional tense without being incorrect: _L'aurais-je su, je ne serais pas venu._


 
Hmm 'without being incorrect'... this sounds very cautious. Why so mealy-mouthed? Would the conditional tense be accepted in everyday French, or does it sound formal, like the subjunctive. I knew that this use of the subjunctive sounded formal, but I didn't realise that it was outdated. I've always used the subjunctive in preference to the conditional, as the subjunctive is used in English.


----------



## tilt

radagasty said:


> Hmm 'without being incorrect'... this sounds very cautious. Why so mealy-mouthed?


I just meant that the following sentence was as much correct as the quoted one.
Sorry if I gave you another feeling. 


> Would the conditional tense be accepted in everyday French, or does it sound formal, like the subjunctive. I knew that this use of the subjunctive sounded formal, but I didn't realise that it was outdated. I've always used the subjunctive in preference to the conditional, as the subjunctive is used in English.


The problem with *Eusse-je su, je ne fusse pas venu* is not about the subjunctive mode itself, but about the tense: in common French, we frequently use *présent *and *passé*,but I think people can spend a whole life without hearing any *imparfait *nor *plus-que parfait* (the tense used here)_. _These ones really sound outdated, in my opinion.

On the contrary, the _*présent du c**onditionel *_is very common, and_ *L'au*__*rais-je su, je ne serais pas venu*_ sounds nothing but a bit more formal than *Si j'avais su...*, which is definitely what would be said in everyday French.


----------

