# Urdu: maanand/maanind (resembling)



## Qureshpor

This is what Platts says about "maanand/maanind".

P مانند _mānand, vulg. mānind [S. मान (rt. मा=Zend mā)+अन्त्], prep. & postpn. Like, resembling, after the likeness (of, -ke;—if mānind is used as a postpn., the governed noun takes the gen. aff. -kī; but if it be used as a prep., the noun takes the gen. aff. -ke; e.g. daryā-kī mānind; but mānind daryā-ke)._

So, based on this definition, we must always use, ..."*...kii maanand*" and "*maanand ... ke*". Interesting thing is that "maanand" is not the only word which acts in this manner where it is "kii" before the word but "ke" after it!

*ma3rifat* meN us xudaa-i-paak *ke  *
uRte haiN hosh-o-Havaas idraak ke

Aatash

(please note, ma3rifat is feminine)

maidaan meN thaa Hashr ba-paa *chaal* se us *ke

*Anees

(chaal, of course, is feminine)

Do you stick to this way of the language?


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## UrduMedium

Very interesting. I never used maanand but it seems that's the proper pronunciation. Just confirmed in my feroz-ul-lughaat jame3 too.

The gender rule is interesting. I had never seen this distinction before. Certainly not easy to identify and use it in such manner. 

Along similar lines, I have heard Javed Ahmed Ghamidi* talk about the following: 

The nouns that are normally feminine, when used in their broken (irregular) plural form, they are treated as masculine. For example:

waapsii kii shart (condition)
waapsii ke shara'it (conditions)

dunyaa kii qaum
dunyaa ke aqwaam

I don't think the rule applies to regular plurals. So waapsi ki sharteN an dunyaa ki qaumeN will be correct.

* A notable religious scholar from Pakistan, also a poet and writer who writes and speaks excellent Urdu.


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## lafz_puchnevala

A related word is 'ke/kii misl'. Would this be interchangeable with 'kii maanind'?


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## JaiHind

I don't know. It is hardly ever used in Hindi.


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## Alfaaz

> A related word is 'ke/kii misl'. Would this be interchangeable with 'kii maanind'?



All of the following could be synonyms: 
مثل، متشابہ، مماثل، مانند، طرح، نظیر 
misl, mutashaabih, mumaasil, maanand, tarH, nizeer

Song Example: Film: Aap ka khaadim; Singer: Mehdi Hassan

_aankh mein saare zamane ki khaTak ta hi raha, dard-e-aawaarah ki maanand bhaTak ta hi raha
urTe patton ki tarH, mein to jis simt/samt chala, saath chala weeranah 
jo mila us ne mere dil ko khilona jana, 
khel ke toR diya, toR ke choR diya, hai yeh mera afsaanah

_*Question: *(sorry to interrupt in the thread!)
Could someone use مماثل and نظیر in sentences? Should I open separate threads for these...?

*Comments on original thread: 
*Really interesting, informative, yet odd sounding (to my ears)! This is the first time I'm hearing this (or maybe the first time noticing it....)! The use of ke with feminine words sounds odd in the examples provided above (maybe because of not being used to it)....


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## BP.

JaiHind said:


> I don't know. It is hardly ever used in Hindi.


Thank you for the hors-du-sujet info!


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## Faylasoof

In _lakhnavii _Urdu it has been _maan*i*nd_ for long! At least since the time of Miir Anees /Anis, I feel, or thereabouts! Here is an _iDhaafat_ / _izaafat_ use of _maan*i*nd_ by him:

_maan*i*nd-e-sher-e-nar kabhii Thaihare* kabhii baRhe_
_goyaa 3alii ulaTte hu’e aastiiN baRhe_

(_Miir Aniis_)

[* In actual fact _Thahare_ from ٿهہرانا ठहराना _ṭ__hahrānā_ but like _laih(i)r_ pronounced with a slight diphthong in the first syllable!]

However, as far as postpositions go, we say it exactly as Platts has it:

_“daryā-*kī* mānind; _but_ mānind daryā-*ke*.”_


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## Qureshpor

mbasit said:


> Along similar lines, I have heard Javed Ahmed Ghamidi* talk about the following:
> 
> The nouns that are normally feminine, when used in their broken (irregular) plural form, they are treated as masculine. For example:
> 
> waapsii kii shart (condition)
> waapsii ke shara'it (conditions)
> 
> dunyaa kii qaum
> dunyaa ke aqwaam
> 
> I don't think the rule applies to regular plurals. So waapsi ki sharteN an dunyaa ki qaumeN will be correct.
> 
> * A notable religious scholar from Pakistan, also a poet and writer who writes and speaks excellent Urdu.




I have to confess that till now I had not come across this "style". In another thread I noticed Faylasoof SaaHib had written "saste ashyaa". I thought "saste" was a typo (for sastii) but now that you mention the Arabic broken plural with "ke", perhaps "saste" falls in the same category. I don't really know.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I have to confess that till now I had not come across this "style". In another thread I noticed Faylasoof SaaHib had written "saste ashyaa". I thought "saste" was a typo (for sastii) but now that you mention the Arabic broken plural with "ke", perhaps "saste" falls in the same category. I don't really know.



I think 'saste ashyaa' follows the same rule. Perhaps, Faylasoof SaaHib can comment.


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## souminwé

_ [S. मान (rt. मा=Zend mā)+अन्त्] - _Am I reading correctly that _maanind_ derives from Sanskrit here? I've been thinking it was Persian up 'til now.


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## Qureshpor

There is no doubt link between the two languages going back to Hittite (or should I say Adam?) but "maanind/maanand" comes from the Persian verb "maanistan" to resemble.


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## marrish

In Persian we use it all the time. It is of course _maanand_, not _maanind_.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> In _lakhnavii _Urdu it has been _maan*i*nd_ for long! At least since the time of Miir Anees /Anis, I feel, or thereabouts! Here is an _iDhaafat_ / _izaafat_ use of _maan*i*nd_ by him:
> 
> _maan*i*nd-e-sher-e-nar kabhii Thaihare* kabhii baRhe_
> _goyaa 3alii ulaTte hu’e aastiiN baRhe_
> 
> (_Miir Aniis_)



I have always heard and used "maanind" too. My emphasis in this thread was on kii/ke. Regarding the couplet you have quoted, in Urdu without the full diacritcs one can not say with certainty if the poet is writing "maanind" or "maanand". One way to confirm this would be if we could find this word being rhymed with either "hind" or such like word or "chand" or similar sounding word....band/kamand. I thought I had written such a shi3r somewhere but I have n't been able to find it.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> I have always heard and used "maanind" too. My emphasis in this thread was on kii/ke.


 I realise this and answered accordingly,


Faylasoof said:


> However, as far as postpositions go, *we say it exactly as Platts has it:
> *
> _“daryā-*kī* mānind; _but_ mānind daryā-*ke*.”
> _







QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof said:
> 
> 
> 
> In _lakhnavii _Urdu it has been _maan*i*nd_ for long! At least since the time of Miir Anees /Anis, I feel, or thereabouts! Here is an _iDhaafat_ / _izaafat_ use of _maan*i*nd_ by him:
> 
> _maan*i*nd-e-sher-e-nar kabhii Thaihare* kabhii baRhe_
> _goyaa 3alii ulaTte hu’e aastiiN baRhe_
> 
> (_Miir Aniis_)
> 
> [* In actual fact _Thahare_ from ٿهہرانا ठहराना _ṭ__hahrānā_ but like _laih(i)r_ pronounced with a slight diphthong in the first syllable!]
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the couplet you have quoted, in Urdu without the full diacritcs one can not say with certainty if the poet is writing "maanind" or "maanand". One way to confirm this would be if we could find this word being rhymed with either "hind" or such like word or "chand" or similar sounding word....band/kamand. I thought I had written such a shi3r somewhere but I have n't been able to find it.
Click to expand...

 I agree that without full diacritics one can't say either way but we have been saying it like this since about the end of the 19th early/ 20th century as one ancestor of mine was a pupil of Miir Nafiis and another one of Miir Munis - Aniis's family! All my elders pronounce the word as _maan*i*nd_!


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## Alfaaz

> A related word is 'ke/kii misl'. Would this be interchangeable with 'kii maanind'?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the following could be synonyms:
> مثل، متشابہ، مماثل، مانند، طرح، نظیر
> misl, mutashaabih, mumaasil, maanand, tarH, nizeer
> 
> Song Example: Film: Aap ka khaadim; Singer: Mehdi Hassan
> 
> _aankh mein saare zamane ki khaTak ta hi raha, dard-e-aawaarah ki maanand bhaTak ta hi raha
> urTe patton ki tarH, mein to jis simt/samt chala, saath chala weeranah
> jo mila us ne mere dil ko khilona jana,
> khel ke toR diya, toR ke choR diya, hai yeh mera afsaanah
> 
> _*Question: *(sorry to interrupt in the thread!)
> Could someone use مماثل and نظیر in sentences? Should I open separate threads for these...?
Click to expand...

Do members have any input/ideas/valuable opinions..........?


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## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> _....
> _*Question: *(sorry to interrupt in the thread!)
> Could someone use مماثل and نظیر in sentences?* Should I open separate threads for these...?
> *
> *Comments on original thread:
> *Really interesting, informative, yet odd sounding (to my ears)! This is the first time I'm hearing this (or maybe the first time noticing it....)! The use of ke with feminine words sounds odd in the examples provided above (maybe because of not being used to it)....


 Alfaaz SaaHib please do open new threads for these! Please also do a search before opening the new threads. I don't seem to recall us discussing them in any detail!


... and you may be right! _maanind_ might not be very common in speech these days. Well at least amongst many / most Urduphones. You still find it used in both Urdu prose and poetry though.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for the reply Faylasoof!


> ... and you may be right! maanind might not be very common in speech these days. Well at least amongst many / most Urduphones. You still find it used in both Urdu prose and poetry though.


Sorry, but I didn't understand this...I don't think I suggested that maanind is not very common. It seems to be still very common in everyday speech, judging from TV (can be heard frequently in religious shows and political talk shows); even the younger generations seem to use/understand it.

Examples:
"___________ R.A. kuuze mein band daryaa ki maanind hain! Khuda humein Quraan, Rasuul (s.w.), aur aise logon ki taaleemaat ko seekhne, samajhne aur un par 'amal karne ki taufeeq ata farmaaye. Ameen. Thum Ameen."
"Yeh siyaasatdaan nasuur ki maanind hain jo mulk ko tabaah-o-barbaad kar ke choRenge!"
"Yaaaaaaarrr! Check this out! Yeh I Pad to hatheli per dunyaa ki maanind hai! Don't you think so? Kitne kaam isse kiye jaa sakte hain aur kitni knowledge li jaa sakti hai! Really aaawwwesome!"

 I was suggesting that the rule presented by QP in the OP was somewhat new to me and wasn't heard often:



> Comments on original thread:
> Really interesting, informative, yet odd sounding (to my ears)! This is the first time I'm hearing this (or maybe the first time noticing it....)! The use of ke with feminine words sounds odd in the examples provided above (maybe because of not being used to it)....


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> I have always heard and used "maanind" too. My emphasis in this thread was on kii/ke. Regarding the couplet you have quoted, in Urdu without the full diacritcs one can not say with certainty if the poet is writing "maanind" or "maanand". One way to confirm this would be if we could find this word being rhymed with either "hind" or such like word or "chand" or similar sounding word....band/kamand. I thought I had written such a shi3r somewhere but I have n't been able to find it.



paanii pii poNchhiye 3arq harchand
risiye kaNkar ke kuuze ke maanand

Sauda*

I am not sure if I have transcribed the second line correctly but one thing is for certain. The word has to be "maanand" to rhyme with "chand"

*kulliuyaat-i-Sauda, jild sivvum. majlis-i-taraqqii-i-adab., Lahore p81


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## lafz_puchnevala

UrduMedium said:


> I think 'saste ashyaa' follows the same rule. Perhaps, Faylasoof SaaHib can comment.



In that case what is the singular for 'ashyaa'?

Thanks!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> paanii pii poNchhiye 3arq harchand
> risiye kaNkar ke kuuze ke maanand
> 
> Sauda*
> 
> I am not sure if I have transcribed the second line correctly but one thing is for certain. The word has to be "maanand" to rhyme with "chand"
> 
> *kulliuyaat-i-Sauda, jild sivvum. majlis-i-taraqqii-i-adab., Lahore p81


_ be-Hadd shukriyah _! Given that the Persian pronunciation is indeed _maanand_, as marrish SaaHib confirms and as shown below, Sauda would have opted for this for the purpose of rhyming, or else in his time this pronunciation was the norm!

*مانند*. [ *ن َن *ْ ] (ص ، اِ) مثل و شبیه و نظیر و شبه . (ناظم الاطباء). همانند. ماننده . همتا. شبیه . مشابه . مثل . مماثل . مشاکل . نِدّ. نَدید. نظیر. قِرن . (یادداشت به خط مرحوم دهخدا). این کلمه اگر پس از اسم (مشبه به ) آید بدون اضافه استعمال شود: سرومانند. واگر پیش از اسم آید بصورت اضافه استعمال گردد: روی یار مانند ماه است . (*فرهنگ فارسی معین *)​


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## UrduMedium

lafz_puchnevala said:


> In that case what is the singular for 'ashyaa'?
> 
> Thanks!


 It is _sha'e_ (thing).


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## Sheikh_14

Very interesting thread indeed. However, is it possible to use maniind in a hyphenated compound form as you would with either jaisaa or saa or is the ke, kaa or izaafat necessary? In fact has there been any deviation from such from a respected entity i.e. Dunyaa-maniind instead of either dunyaa ke maniind or maniind dunyaa ke? Poetry or prose either is welcome if a precedent exists.


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