# Persian: The Spirit of the law



## Sheikh_14

How would we translate the "letter" and "spirit" of the law in Urdu and Farsi?


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## sapnachaandni

in Farsi:
"letter" [> law] = "دادخواست" [daadkhaast], "عریضه" [arize]


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## Qureshpor

^ I don't believe here "letter and spirit of the law" implies a letter as such. The implication of "letter of the law" is that the law is being applied/obeyed through its literal interpretation without going into the "spirit of the law"...the real intent behind it.

This topic has come up in the past.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2457398

qaanuun ko sirf *lafzii-ma3nii *tak maHduud nahiiN samajhnaa chaahiye balkih hameN us kii *ruuH* ko malHuuz-i-xaatir rakhnaa chaahiye.


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## Jervoltage

Hi,

the letter of the law = نصّ قانون
the spirit of the law = منظور قانون


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## sapnachaandni

Jervoltage said:


> Hi,
> 
> the letter of the law = نصّ قانون
> the spirit of the law = منظور قانون


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## Sheikh_14

Qureshpor said:


> ^ I don't believe here "letter and spirit of the law" implies a letter as such. The implication of "letter of the law" is that the law is being applied/obeyed through its literal interpretation without going into the "spirit of the law"...the real intent behind it.
> 
> This topic has come up in the past.
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2457398
> 
> qaanuun ko sirf *lafzii-ma3nii *tak maHduud nahiiN samajhnaa chaahiye balkih hameN us kii *ruuH* ko malHuuz-i-xaatir rakhnaa chaahiye.



From the incisive thread link I was provided the following would stand:
Letter of the laq= Lafzi ma3ini as you have already indicated and for the latter = ruuh or manshaa e qanuun.



sapnachaandni said:


>



Does Manzur or منظور here derive from its Arabic homophone. For I have always taken it to mean something *accepted. *Could either of you gentlemen/ladies care to expand on the usage of the primary parts of the two words. Leaving out Qanuun for the literal translation of that is identical in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu that being law.


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## Jervoltage

Sheikh_14 said:


> Does Manzur or منظور here derive from its Arabic homophone.



منظور is Arabic.



> Could either of you gentlemen/ladies care to expand on the usage of the primary parts of the two words. Leaving out Qanuun for the literal translation of that is identical in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu that being law.



منظور = intent, منظور قانون = the intent of the law, what it is supposed to require = the spirit of the law
نصّ = exact words


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## Treaty

I have also heard of روح قانون instead of منظور قانون.


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## cherine

Treaty said:


> I have also heard of روح قانون instead of منظور قانون.


Interesting. This is the term used in Arabic, I mean روح القانون , because منظور in Arabic is mostly used to mean "perspective".


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## Jervoltage

Treaty said:


> I have also heard of روح قانون instead of منظور قانون.



روح قانون also occurred to me, but I find it ambiguous in this context. I think it doesn't convey the meaning as plainly as _the spirit of the law _puts it, so I opted for منظور قانون which is quite straightforward.



cherine said:


> Interesting. This is the term used in Arabic, I mean روح القانون , because منظور in Arabic is mostly used to mean "perspective".



I don't think it means the same in Persian.


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## cherine

Yes, I see that.

By the way, روح القوانين is the Arabic translation of the "l'esprit des lois" of Montesquieu.


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## Jervoltage

cherine said:


> By the way, روح القوانين is the Arabic translation of the "l'esprit des lois" of Montesquieu.



It is referred to as روح القوانين in Persian as well, but I don't see how it can be directly related to the topic in hand.


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## cherine

Isn't "the spirit of the law" the English version of "l'esprit de la loi"?


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## Jervoltage

cherine said:


> Isn't "the spirit of the law" the English version of "l'esprit de la loi"?



Does Montesquieu's _De l'esprit des lois _contrast _la lettre de la loi_ and _l'esprit de la loi_, so we can use it in the way we translate _the spirit of the law_ (as opposed to _the letter of the law_) in Persian?


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## cherine

Frankly, I didn't read the book, so I can't tell.
I don't know much about Persian, I was simply interested in the "possibility" of using روح قانون in Persian like it's used in Arabic. If it doesn't work in Persian, then be it. 

By the way, Arabic does oppose or contrast نص القانون and روح القانون .


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## Jervoltage

cherine said:


> Frankly, I didn't read the book, so I can't tell.



Nor have I. That is why I asked.



> I don't know much about Persian, I was simply interested in the "possibility" of using روح قانون in Persian like it's used in Arabic. If it doesn't work in Persian, then be it.



It surely can be, as Treaty suggested, an option, but I think it wouldn't be as accessible as منظور قانون.


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## Treaty

I'm pretty sure that روح is a better option in Persian. I don't know why Jervoltage considers it ambiguous. روح قانون is a well-established expression used commonly in Iran. Just google "نص و روح قانون". On the other hand منظور قانون is not as common.


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## cherine

Maybe something can help here: could one of the Persian speakers check what is the Persian translation of Montesquieu's book? I'm pretty sure the title is the origin of this expression. Even if it isn't, it won't hurt to know how the title was translated into Persian.


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## Jervoltage

Treaty said:


> Just google "نص و روح قانون".



I just did, and the majority of results are in Arabic.



cherine said:


> Maybe something can help here: could one of the Persian speakers check what is the Persian translation of Montesquieu's book? I'm pretty sure the title is the origin of this expression. Even if it isn't, it won't hurt to know how the title was translated into Persian.



As I said, it is the same روح القوانين.

EDIT: By the way, I found this in the Aryanpur Dictionary under 'spirit':۷- منظور واقعی، جان کلام، معنی اصلی
​

   the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law

منظور واقعی قانون در مقابل متن قانون​​


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## Treaty

Jervoltage said:


> I just did, and the majority of results are in Arabic.



. There are about 100 unique results for "نص و *روح *قانون" and "*روح *و نص قانون" together, all of which are Persian (except one). Also many of them are in official quotations, news or articles. There are also about 130 results for "متن و *روح *قانون" and "*روح *و متن قانون" together, again all Persian. In contrast there is _only one_ "نص و *منظور *قانون" and no "*منظور *و نص قانون", "متن و *منظور *قانون" or "*منظور *و متن قانون". You should search all in quotation mark. So what we have is the *روح *قانون is used more than 200 times as *منظور *قانون in the spirit/letter couple. 

Bottom line, you can find the "متن و *روح*" in Clause 138 of Iran's Constitution and "نص و *روح*" in Clause 76 of Afghanistan's Constitution. منظور is not used in this sense in either texts at all.


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## cherine

Treaty said:


> Bottom line, you can find the "متن و *روح*" in Clause 138 of Iran's Constitution and "نص و *روح*" in Clause 76 of Afghanistan's Constitution. منظور is not used in this sense in either texts at all.


If they're the terms used in the constitution, then they're the terms that should be used everywhere. Thanks for the find, Treaty! 

P.S. Just for the record, it would be hard to find روح قانون in an Arabic text, because Arabic uses the definite القانون .


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## Jervoltage

I have already expressed my opinion. I prefer منظور قانون, and wouldn't go for the literal روح قانون. However, I did not rule it out.



Treaty said:


> . There are about 100 unique results for "نص و *روح *قانون" and "*روح *و نص قانون" together, all of which are Persian (except one). Also many of them are in official quotations, news or articles. There are also about 130 results for "متن و *روح *قانون" and "*روح *و متن قانون" together, again all Persian. In contrast there is _only one_ "نص و *منظور *قانون" and no "*منظور *و نص قانون", "متن و *منظور *قانون" or "*منظور *و متن قانون". You should search all in quotation mark. So what we have is the *روح *قانون is used more than 200 times as *منظور *قانون in the spirit/letter couple.
> 
> Bottom line, you can find the "متن و *روح*" in Clause 138 of Iran's Constitution and "نص و *روح*" in Clause 76 of Afghanistan's Constitution. منظور is not used in this sense in either texts at all.



I did not put نص و روح قانون in quotation marks.

How would you translate _the spirit of the law_ in the following?

"_The spirit of the law _is that there should be one set of rules governing access to a multistate placement of a surplus lines product."
"_T__he spirit of the law _is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such [aftermarket] parts are present on the vehicle."
"_The spirit of the law _is that if the campus houses those documents in any form, they need to produce those documents."
...

I, for one, would definitely opt for منظور قانون اینست که....



cherine said:


> If they're the terms used in the constitution, then they're the terms that should be used everywhere.



Constitutions are there to govern countries, not languages, right?


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## cherine

It's not about governing the language, but with technical terms (and this is a legal term, I suppose) I always prefer using the versions agreed upon and used by official entities and a good number of the language users, rather than put one of my own, even when I don't like the official translation very much.

But this is just me, you are of course entitled to use the term you prefer.


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## Jervoltage

I see, but I wouldn't call this a technical term.


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