# Da sitzen wir nun des Abends...



## piloya

> Da sitzen wir nun de*s* Abend*s* nach einem elend langen Arbeitstag an der Bar,


Hallo,
I have read this sentence in an article about the use of "irgend..."(although this has nothing to do with the sense of this sentence) and have come accross this strange-to-me use of the genitive.
Why is it in genitive?
I have a feeling that it may mean: "wir verbringen den ganzen Abend an der Bar". Am I right? but I then I would have never thought of using the genitive.


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## sohc4

piloya said:
			
		

> Why is it in genitive?
> I have a feeling that it may mean: "wir verbringen den ganzen Abend an der Bar". Am I right? but I then I would have never thought of using the genitive.


piloya,

the use of genitive here is a bit old and outdated. In contemporaty words, you would say "Nun sitzen wir am Abend eines elend langen Arbeitstages an der Bar".

Axl


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## Andræs

Hola, Piloya:

Lo del genitivo me parece un poco extraño a mí también. 
Yo entiendo la horación como "Nos sentamos, a la noche, después de un largo y miserable día de trabajo en el bar"

Andræs.


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## Whodunit

Andræs said:
			
		

> Hola, Piloya:
> 
> Lo del genitivo me parece un poco extraño a mí también.
> Yo entiendo la horación como "Nos sentamos, a la noche, después de un largo y miserable día de trabajo en el bar"
> 
> Andræs.



You're right. I don't want to write in Spanish, because that takes too much time. But the use of "a la noche" is correct, since in German we could also say "an dem Abend" as well as "eines/diesen Abends" etc.


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## gaer

piloya said:
			
		

> Hallo,
> I have read this sentence in an article about the use of "irgend..."(although this has nothing to do with the sense of this sentence) and have come accross this strange-to-me use of the genitive.
> Why is it in genitive?
> I have a feeling that it may mean: "wir verbringen den ganzen Abend an der Bar". Am I right? but I then I would have never thought of using the genitive.


"Da sitzen wir nun des Abends nach einem elend langen Arbeitstag an der Bar,"

Notice that these kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?  

And the answer is: "Just because"!  

(Of course their answer about HOW to write the sentence are perfect!)

I'm kidding a bit. There may actually be a reason, but if there is one, I have no idea what it is. 

Sometimes the only answer to some of these strange constructinos, as in English, is that "it is what it is". 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> "Da sitzen wir nun des Abends nach einem elend langen Arbeitstag an der Bar,"
> 
> Notice that *these* kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?
> 
> And the answer is: "*Just because*"!
> 
> (Of course their *answer* about HOW to write the sentence *are* perfect!)
> 
> I'm kidding a bit. There may actually be a reason, but if there is one, I have no idea what it is.
> 
> Sometimes the only answer to some of these strange constructinos, as in English, is that "it is what it is".
> 
> Gaer



The bold words are a little tricky to me:

these: Did you want to say "this"?
just because: What does that mean?
answer ... are: Isn't it "answer ... is" or "answers ... are"?


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## gaer

Who said:
			
		

> answer ... are: Isn't it "answer ... is" or "answers ... are"?


Yes, but by context it has to be "answers are", because it would not be "their answer", since I was referring to several people. I omitted the "s".

"Just because" is idiomatic. We use that to mean: "There is no reason. It's simply true/not true."

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Yes, but by context it has to be "answers are", because it would not be "their answer", since I was referring to several people. I omitted the "s".
> 
> "Just because" is idiomatic. We use that to mean: "There is no reason. It's simply true/not true."
> 
> Gaer



I see once again. Could you please answer to "these", too? I'm not sure if "these kind" is correct.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I see once again. Could you please answer to "these", too? I'm not sure if "these kind" is correct.


I was joking:

Notice that *these* kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right? 

Notice that *these* friendly, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right? 

I was joking about the fact that no one explained why "des Abends" uses the genitive form. It was a lighthearted comment that I'm afraid was not understood. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I was joking:
> 
> Notice that *these* kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?
> 
> Notice that *these* friendly, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?
> 
> I was joking about the fact that no one explained why "des Abends" uses the genitive form. It was a lighthearted comment that I'm afraid was not understood.
> 
> Gaer



Oh, I'm such a loser tonight! What was I thinking? But do you know why I didn't notice that? Let me shortly explain it:

Please consider this sentence:

knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question

and now this:

Notice that this kind which was why this is genitive, right?

The first sentence made totally sense to me, but the second was no use. I thought you're sentence would be a relative clause; that's why I would have omitted "that" in the second sentence and replaced "these" by "this". You're 'never-written' commas irritated me. Sorry for this 'joke'.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm such a loser tonight! What was I thinking? But do you know why I didn't notice that? Let me shortly explain it:


Ah, I see the problem now, I think. Again, I think most native English speakers would have gotten it, but it certainly was not well-written. Let me rewrite:

_Notice that these kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which I believe was: Why this is genitive? Am I right?_ 

I should be more careful about writing informally and using the kind of sloppy, informal sentence structure that we frequently use when joking around. 

Gaer


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## piloya

whodunit said:
			
		

> The first sentence made totally sense to me, but the second was no use. I thought you're sentence would be a relative clause; that's why I would have omitted "that" in the second sentence and replaced "these" by "this". *Your* 'never-written' commas irritated me. Sorry for this 'joke'.


 
Hi, thanks everybody for the explanations.
Now, Who, you've got all mixed up. Gaer's commas are in their place  
"these kind, knowledgeable Germans...... your question, which was ...."
You have read it in the German way ,thinking perhaps that everything between the commas was a subordinate sentence, when it was jus a continuation. 
But Gaer was right: Why is the genitive being used here? Does it come from an ancient form or expression? Well, if it's just outdated I should forget about it. I have loads of useful things to learn in German before.


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## Whodunit

piloya said:
			
		

> Hi, thanks everybody for the explanations.
> Now, Who, you've got all mixed up. Gaer's commas are in their place
> "these kind, knowledgeable Germans...... your question, which was ...."
> You have read it in the German way ,thinking perhaps that everything between the commas was a subordinate sentence, when it was jus a continuation.
> But Gaer was right: Why is the genitive being used here? Does it come from an ancient form or expression? Well, if it's just outdated I should forget about it. I have loads of useful things to learn in German before.



The same goes to Gaer: I got it.

And yes, Piloya, I got all mixed up. The saying "never-written commas" indicated Gaer's writing, because he always try to omit commas wherever possible. And that's why it irritated me, because he used commas like in the German way. Thanks for pointing that out (pointing out that?).

You should forget it: It's outdated and it doesn't sound very good. If you used it at the univerity, you would probably be considered being well-educated, but forget it for the German familairity.


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## AndrewLivingston

des Abends...

In English, although usually British, as I have never heard it in American English before, you can use a 'genitive' construction to make a general time reference, such as in:

When we were on holiday in Spain, we liked to sit on the beach of an evening and watch the sun go down.

This basically is a way of saying you watched the sun go down whilst sitting on the beach, but you are not specifying which evening.  It could have been any evening.  What evening is not important, what is important is the fact that you were on the beach watching the sun go down.

Similarly, or arguably the same, des Abends or eines Abends simply means that the speaker (or writer) is referring to an unspecified time in the pub.

Confer: Als Gregor Samsa eines Morgens aus unruhigen Traeumen erwachte...

Kafka was simply saying that One morning, as Gregor Samsa awoke from...

It is a common usage of the genitive in temporal phrases, although Axl is right, it might sound a bit dated these days, and I would dare say that it would not be heard that often in spoken form, but rather in literary works.

I hope I have not wittered on too much.


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## AndrewLivingston

Piloya,

Although this phrase might sound strange (I know it did to me when I first came across it), it is quite normal and is found in literary works quite often.

The use of the genitive here is to make the time reference general, not specific.

In English, you can say, "I used to love strolling down by the river of an evening."  By using this construction, you are specifying the action instead of the time period.

I hope this helps!


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## gaer

AndrewLivingston said:
			
		

> des Abends...
> 
> In English, although usually British, as I have never heard it in American English before, you can use a 'genitive' construction to make a general time reference, such as in:
> 
> When we were on holiday in Spain, we liked to sit on the beach of an evening and watch the sun go down.
> 
> This basically is a way of saying you watched the sun go down whilst sitting on the beach, but you are not specifying which evening. It could have been any evening. What evening is not important, what is important is the fact that you were on the beach watching the sun go down.
> 
> Similarly, or arguably the same, des Abends or eines Abends simply means that the speaker (or writer) is referring to an unspecified time in the pub.
> 
> Confer: Als Gregor Samsa eines Morgens aus unruhigen Traeumen erwachte...
> 
> Kafka was simply saying that One morning, as Gregor Samsa awoke from...
> 
> It is a common usage of the genitive in temporal phrases, although Axl is right, it might sound a bit dated these days, and I would dare say that it would not be heard that often in spoken form, but rather in literary works.
> 
> I hope I have not wittered on too much.


I'm glad you appeared here and made that point. I am VERY familiar with this expression "of any evening". In fact, although we don't say it today—I've never heard it in speech—I would also say that anyone who does not know it has read very little. It has the feel of Dickens, for instance. It's literary, and it might pop up today in a fantasy book, since fantasy often uses older forms to set atmosphere. 

Gaer


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> The saying "never-written commas" indicated Gaer's writing, because he always try to omit commas wherever possible. And that's why it irritated me, because he used commas like in the German way.


No. I didn't. I used commas in a way that is 100% correct in English. When I say that I omit commas when possible, I am talking about short sentences when it is common to do so. This sentence is not such a sentence. There are three commas. They all belong there.  

This was my sentence:

_Notice that these kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?_ 

Generally adjectives are separated by a comma when "and" is omitted:

1) The kind and knowledgeable germans
2) The kind, knowledgeable germans

The word "which" is SUPPOSED to follow a comma when it introduces a clause. My writing was informal. If the exact same discussion had taken place in the English forum, no one whose mother-tongue is English would have misread my sentence in context.

I rewrote the sentence in a more formal way, but normally it would not be necessary. 

Gaer


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## piloya

AndrewLivingston said:
			
		

> ,
> 
> The use of the genitive here is to make the time reference general, not specific.
> 
> In English, you can say, "I used to love strolling down by the river of an evening." By using this construction, you are specifying the action instead of the time period.
> 
> I hope this helps!


 
Hi Andrew,  welcome to the German forum.
I got it now. I had never noticed the use of the genitive in English in that way before, maybe because it doesn't affect the sense of the sentence that much  or because the form of the genitive in English is not as obvious as in German and I surely kept reading on. But I'll pay more attention from now on.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> No. I didn't. I used commas in a way that is 100% correct in English. When I say that I omit commas when possible, I am talking about short sentences when it is common to do so. This sentence is not such a sentence. There are three commas. They all belong there.
> 
> This was my sentence:
> 
> _Notice that these kind, knowledgeable Germans have ducked your question, which was why this is genitive, right?_
> 
> Generally adjectives are separated by a comma when "and" is omitted:
> 
> 1) The kind and knowledgeable germans
> 2) The kind, knowledgeable germans
> 
> The word "which" is SUPPOSED to follow a comma when it introduces a clause. My writing was informal. If the exact same discussion had taken place in the English forum, no one whose mother-tongue is English would have misread my sentence in context.
> 
> I rewrote the sentence in a more formal way, but normally it would not be necessary.
> 
> Gaer



Your reply seems logically to me and I still don't know why I didn't get your sentence.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Your reply seems logically to me and I still don't know why I didn't get your sentence.


I know why. You are TIRED! Remember, you told me how busy you would be right now. Give yourself a break. We appreciate that you are doing your best to contribute at a time when you don't HAVE much time.

Even the simplest things can be impossible to understand when you are low on sleep and stressed from too much to do. To be honest, I have been in much the same condition. I have a crashing headache right now.

Remember your old sig: Nobody is perfect!  

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I know why. You are TIRED! Remember, you told me how busy you would be right now. Give yourself a break. We appreciate that you are doing your best to contribute at a time when you don't HAVE much time.
> 
> Even the simplest things can be impossible to understand when you are low on sleep and stressed from too much to do. To be honest, I have been in much the same condition. I have a crashing headache right now.
> 
> Remember your old sig: Nobody is perfect!
> 
> Gaer



Yes, I should have slept a little more, and the same goes for now: I HAVE to sleep, but I cannot. Tomorrow, I'll be tired, but tonight, I'm totally "full of vim".


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Yes, I should have slept a little more, and the same goes for now: I HAVE to sleep, but I cannot. Tomorrow, I'll be tired, but tonight, I'm totally "full of vim".


Full of "vim and vigor" eh? 

Usually those three words are used together, as an idiom.

Just don't push yourself to hard. If you get sick, it won't be worth it. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Full of "vim and vigor" eh?
> 
> Usually those three words are used together, as an idiom.
> 
> Just don't push yourself to hard. If you get sick, it won't be worth it.
> 
> Gaer



Oh, my dictionary was wrong again. It only showed "full of vim" as "aufgekratzt". Leo does it, too.


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