# Use of reflexive with a direct object



## Apa2001

Hello,
I learned that учиться где-нибудь или как?

Учимся  дзюдо у Владимира Путина. Does the verb have to be reflexive? Would this sentence be correct;
Я учился русский язык у Ивана Ивановича?
Спасибо,
Апа


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## morzh

Apa2001 said:


> Hello,
> I learned that учиться где-нибудь или как?
> 
> Учимся  дзюдо у Владимира Путина. Does the verb have to be reflexive? Would this sentence be correct;
> Я учился *русский язык* русскому языку у Ивана Ивановича?
> Спасибо,
> Апа




Yes, if it is "у кого-то" - it is reflexive.

But you can also say "Учим дзю-до с Владимиром Путиным". This way you avoid using reflexive. The meaning is slightly different...about the same as "learning Jiu-jitsu with Henzo Gracie" vs "learning jiu-jitsu from Henzo Gracie".


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## rusita preciosa

Дзюдо does not decline, but it is in dative. 

Учиться чему
Я учился русскому языку у Ивана Ивановича
but учить что
Я учил русский язык у Ивана Ивановича (although this is not the most elegant way of saying it)


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## WordOrder

_Учиться_ is an intransitive verb but _учить_ (to learn) is transitive.

_Учиться [чему?] дзюдо._ (_дзюдо_ is an indeclinable noun)

_Учить [что?] дзюдо._

_Учиться [чему?] русскому языку._

_Учить [что?] русский язык._


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## morzh

WordOrder said:


> _Учиться_ is an intransitive verb but _учить_ (to learn) is transitive.
> 
> _Учиться [чему?] дзюдо._ (_дзюдо_ is an indeclinable noun)
> 
> _Учить [что?] дзюдо._
> 
> _Учиться [чему?] русскому языку._
> 
> _Учить [что?] русский язык._



No, because "учиться" may be both transitive and intransitive.

Учиться дзю-до. (чему? to learn judo)
Учиться у Путина (у кого? to learn from Putin)
Учиться. (to learn).

Алсо:

Учить - means both "to learn" and "to teach".

Путин учит нас дзю-то. - Putin teaches us judo.
Мы учим математику - we are learning math.


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## ahvalj

morzh said:


> No, because "учиться" may be both transitive and intransitive.
> 
> Учиться дзю-до. (чему? to learn judo)


By definition, transitive verbs are those that require a direct object, which in Russian is expressed by the Accusative. «Учиться чему» thus is not transitive. The reflexive particle itself is the former Accusative (сѧ «себя») originally introduced to lock the action inside the subject and therefore making any direct object impossible (also: «кидать камни» but «кидаться камнями»). Otherwise, in the past there was another such particle, «си» (still existing in e. g. Czech), which is a Dative form, expresses interest («себе») and can be used with the Accusative nouns («купити си корову»). In Baltic languages, the reflexive verbs are formed with the Dative "si" and as such can be used with the Accusatuve among others (Lithuanian «nusipirkti mašiną», «купить (себе) машину»).


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## Apa2001

To sum it up.  Judo is a foreign  noun that does not decline. It is in the dative case in my example. However, it does not seem to be in the dative to me, a non-Russian speaker. I have understood this correctly?
Thanks,
Apa


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## rusita preciosa

Apa2001 said:


> To sum it up. Judo is a foreign noun that does not decline. It is in the dative case in my example.


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## LilianaB

Some foreign nouns decline however, such as podium. Why is that? Is it that the older loan words decline?


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> Some foreign nouns decline however, such as podium. Why is that? Is it that the older loan words decline?



Usually foreign words do not decline only if ending on a vowel (especially on a stressed vowel and vowels not typical for Russian endings), no matter how long ago they were loaned (пальто, антраша, марабу, кольраби, фондю, биде). Loaned words ending on a consonant are easily declined (подиум, парашют, шофер).


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## LilianaB

Thank you.


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## Apa2001

To sum it up.  Judo is a foreign  noun that does not decline. It is in the dative case in my example. However, it does not seem to be in the dative to me, a non-Russian speaker.


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## Apa2001

Sorry! I posted the same reply twice. Старость не радость.


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## Maroseika

Apa2001 said:


> Старость не радость.


Зато каждый день новости.


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## Apa2001

Я согласен.


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## morzh

Apa2001 said:


> To sum it up.  Judo is a foreign  noun that does not decline. It is in the dative case in my example. However, it does not seem to be in the dative to me, a non-Russian speaker.




Don't fret it: to a Russian speaker it does not seem to be in the Dative either 
It's just that we know that "учиться" in case of "учиться чему-то" (to be taught something / to learn something) requires Dative. But it does not look Dative, as this is an "undeclinable" noun.


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## Maroseika

It's an interesting statement. However I think any native, even knowing nothing about cases, presumes чему between учиться and дзюдо.


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> It's an interesting statement. However I think any native, even knowing nothing about cases, presumes чему between учиться and дзюдо.



I meant the "tell-tell signs" of a case.

You don't ask yourself "учиться чему?" every time, when you say or think "учиться фортепиано, учиться макраме"... or do you?


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## Apa2001

Thanks Morzh. I should have figured it out alone.


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> I meant the "tell-tell signs" of a case.
> 
> You don't ask yourself "учиться чему?" every time, when you say or think "учиться фортепиано, учиться макраме"... or do you?



I said 'presumes', not 'asks'. One needs no signs when saying, because it's his phrase. But when reading one really needs some signs to comprehend syntax. Without  case endings only construction per se is a sign.


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