# US Drinking Age



## ullex

During my third trip to Europe this last spring, I was old enough and in a situation in which I was allowed to drink. Of course, *the drinking age in the States being 21*, the idea was rather foreign to me. But after staying with a host family in Germany, all the children in which could drink, I saw what a different thing drinking is over seas. Underage binge drinking is a huge problem in the States, and it seems likely that the lower drinking ages in other countries helps limit the "*taboo*" appeal of drinking.

I'm curious for the opinions of everyone from other countries. What role does the *drinking age* in your country play, in regards to the "image" of drinking (and what is the drinking age in your contry?)? *How does it compare* to the US's 21-year-old drinking age?


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## maxiogee

Selling alcoholic drink to under-18s, or for an under-18 to attempt to purchase alcohol, is illegal in Ireland.

Underage drinking is a huge problem here.


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## Miguelillo 87

On Mexico the age for drinking is 18. 
But according yo estadistics a lot of youngers begin at 13!!!!!
It's a big problem.

In my experience I began at 17 and obviusly you mading out to get the alcohol, but I think it was just one year lox and no problem caused.
ABout US Come-in your boys consumme drugs since 15 Why don't let them dtink before?


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## GenJen54

ullex said:
			
		

> and it seems likely that the lower drinking ages in other countries helps limit the "*taboo*" appeal of drinking.


 
Hi ullex, 

Welcome to the Forums. 

We already have similar threads on the topic, which you may find of interest. One such thread is HERE. 

Your question, however, is a bit different, since it addresses the "taboo" of underage drinking in the U.S.

It is true there is a "taboo" regarding underage drinking in the U.S. In short, it declares alcohol to be the "great evil," and parents (and churces, and schools) are told to tell their children "no" at all costs, and to punish them severely for its use. 

I don't personally know that such "taboos" quell its use, either here, or abroad. Obviously, teens continue to abuse alcohol in the U.S. In my experience living in France, they abused it as well, getting drunk at parties and in certain pubs, etc. The main difference is that they were "legal."

I believe it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children to use alcohol responsibly, rather than to just say "don't" and then have their children experiment on their own. Empowering your child by giving them knowledge and understanding are, in my opinion, far more powerful tools, than just keeping your child ignorant and letting them learn for themselves . 

I was raised in the United States in a household where alcohol (wine, mostly) was made available to me at a young age. That's not to say I could just pour myself a glass anytime I wanted, but that the "taboo" was shed early by parents who taught me that alcohol was a drink meant for special occasions, and on such occasions, I was treated to same. 

At family birthdays, holiday meals, etc., I was allowed to sip on my own glass of wine along with all of the adults at the table. I was also allowed from time to time to "taste" my parents drinks whenever they were partaking of an alcoholic beverage.

That's not to say I did not have my drunk moments in high school and/or college, but they were few and far between comparitively. I learned to "respect the drink" as it were and as such, treated it differently.


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## ullex

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> At family birthdays, holiday meals, etc., I was allowed to sip on my own glass of wine along with all of the adults at the table. I was also allowed from time to time to "taste" my parents drinks whenever they were partaking of an alcoholic beverage.


I grew up in a greatly similar environment, and my parents were huge advocates of exposure and explanation as oppose to declaring alcohol absolutely evil. They're both wine connoisseurs, and they felt good about exposing us to a different aspect of drinking than just "getting smashed". They were greatly discouraged, however, when my brother developed serious drinking problems in high school. He's still battling with it today, and he isn't yet 21. Before I really understood his problem, I asked him simply, "Why? Why do you feel the need to drink so excessively?" And, however unique or not his personal feelings may have been, he responded "A lot of reasons...But I especially resent that I'm not legally allowed to."

His statement made a pretty big impression on me, although I've never been a drinker. I saw the obvious fault in his logic (certainly you don't _need _to defy things just because you don't agree with them), but all the same I've heard his own thought process repeated by people since then, too. The topic has always left me curious.


By the way, thank you much for pointing me to those other threads. =D



			
				Miguelillo 87 said:
			
		

> ABout US Come-on your boys consumme drugs at 15 Why not let them drink before then?


Furthermore, you can *drive *at *16*, *vote*, *smoke*, go to strip clubs, and join the *army *at *18*, but you still *cannot drink until you're 21.*

I think it's pretty crazy.


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## allykat

ullex said:
			
		

> Furthermore, you can *drive *at *16*, *vote*, *smoke*, go to strip clubs, and join the *army *at *18*, but you still *cannot drink until you're 21.*
> 
> I think it's pretty crazy.


 
Agree 100%. I'm not a drinker, esp. since my own form of rebellion consisted of not drinking because everyone else seemed to be doing it. The drinking age is a problem but also the culture is a problem. It seems to me that people who grow up in a culture where alcohol is part of the cultural experience (food) tend to not have that big of a problem with underaged drinking because the rebellion appeal of it is lost. I personally think we should lower the drinking age at least to 18 (if you're old enough to die for your country, you should be able to drink) but gradually.


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## Shannon1989

In Spain the age is 18, and I think is not so bad. But here we have a lot of problems, because every weekend there are more girls and boys aged 14 and even 12 years old arriving at hospital because of drinking too much.
Here you have to be 18 to drive, vote, join the army, drink and smoke. But there are a lot of young people under 18 that drink and smoke...


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## djchak

I'm not sure why people aren't aware of this...

But...the main reason why the Drinking law is the way it is is becuase of the influence of M.A.D.D in the US, and thier sucessful campaigns to legally limit the drinking age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothers_Against_Drunk_Driving

Keep in mind, that in MOST of the US, a car/motorcycle is a necessity, and we can legally get our drivers license from the time we are 16. I received mine at that time, and my motorcycle licencse at 17.

I would hate for anyone to draw the wrong conclusions based on ignorance.

Basically, CERTAIN moms across the USA were sick of kids getting killed, drinking and driving, and getting killed by drink drivers.


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## ullex

djchak said:
			
		

> The main reason why the Drinking law is the way it is is becuase of the influence of M.A.D.D in the US, and thier sucessful campaigns to legally limit the drinking age.



I'm not quite familiar with the history of the drinking age in the US, but was it not 18 at one time? I think it was still 18 when my parents were in college. I never really understood why they changed it. When did M.A.D.D. and similar groups come into the picture?


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## panjabigator

Yikes, I don't want to get off topic about this, but I just want to say my two bits!  I think the drinking age is appropriate...why?  Because the majority of youth are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of drinking...it is just too serious to tamper with at a young age.  That being said, I don't see any issue in serving your country starting at the age of 18.  And btw, you can drink on military bases.


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## Brioche

In Australia the drinking age is 18.
It is also the age to vote or to marry or buy cigarettes.

We have lots of problems with under-age drinking, and binge drinking by young people. If I had my way, I raise the drinking age to at least 20.

Depending on which state you live in, you can get a driving licence between 16.5 and 18 years. 
In my state, for the first 2 and a half years after obtaining a driving licence, it is an offence to drive with any alcohol [or cannabis, or speed] in your blood.
Once you have your "full licence", the alcohol limit is 0.05%.


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## Libby_Kiwi

I'm from New Zealand.  Our drinking age used to be 21.  I thought it should be lowered to 18 - I didn't drink at the time, but it seemed logical; that's the age when you finish school, you can vote, buy cigarettes, join the army, whatever.  However, since the drinking age was lowered a few years ago, binge drinking, drink driving, etc. has become a huge problem.  It's common for kids as young as 14 to go to parties and get drunk.  We have a "binge drinking culture" here in New Zealand - it's just what you do at parties, to be "one of the guys" and all that.  I now think we should have kept the legal drinking age at 21!

Libby


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## papillon

Libby_Kiwi said:
			
		

> ...It's common for kids as young as 14 to go to parties and get drunk...  I now think we should have kept the legal drinking age at 21!


 But do you really think that raising the legal age would solve the problem? I mean, if these kids are 14, they will drink illegally regardless of wether the legal age is 18 or 65...Also, can you correlate (in time) the lowered legal age with the onset of this problem?

I think that what we should also discuss, in addition to legal age is its enforcement. What I mean, growing up in Ukraine, I still don't know what the legal age was. Of course, I am sure there was one. But whatever it was, enforcement was very lax and I don't remember having to show my ID. On the other hand, living in the US I am VERY much aware of the legal age. Many a nights have I gone home without a drink because I didn't have my drivers license.


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## emma42

In Britain the legal age is 18.  There are a lot of problems associated with alchol abuse, but not just from young people.  I do not think that enforcement of draconian laws work.  I think the answer is "education, education, education".  Many people have no idea of the effects of excess drinking on their own personalities and behaviour and the insidious nature of alcholism.  A sustained programme of education, including, essentially, talks and discussions with alcohol abusers and alcoholics of all ages and backgrounds has a good chance of making a difference.  Young people find it hard to relate their own experiences to hard facts from a teacher or book.  Honest question and answer sessions with people with direct experience are the way forward, together with other methods.  These have been proven to work in the past, but probably a lack of resources and will have, inter alia, prevented them becoming more widespread.


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## Max.89

I think the italian drinking age is about 16-17.


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## GenJen54

emma42 said:
			
		

> A sustained programme of education, including, essentially, talks and discussions with alcohol abusers and alcoholics of all ages and backgrounds has a good chance of making a difference. Young people find it hard to relate their own experiences to hard facts from a teacher or book. Honest question and answer sessions with people with direct experience are the way forward, together with other methods.



I agree with this wholeheartedly, and not just about the alcohol issue.  Too many times parents think a stern "no" is all they need to keep their child from starting a dangerous behavior.  Instead, they should empower that child to make decisions based upon sound education.  It's sad too many parents don't follow that approach.  It's sad too many schools cannot afford to host these programs.  It's very sad churches (in my part of my country) push rote "abstinence" on a variety of issues, which ultimately can lead to children experimenting with things they know nothing about, thereby getting into deeper trouble.


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## GenJen54

*Moderator Note:*  Instead of turning this thread into a simple list of ages, let's please discuss the larger issue at hand:


> Underage binge drinking is a huge problem in the States, and it seems likely that the lower drinking ages in other countries helps limit the "*taboo*" appeal of drinking.
> 
> I'm curious for the opinions of everyone from other countries. What role does the *drinking age* in your country play, in regards to the "image" of drinking (and what is the drinking age in your contry?)? *How does it compare* to the US's 21-year-old drinking age?


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## djchak

I'll try:

In the US, in spite of the nationwide laws... the image of drinking in most metro areas is not "taboo". I'm sure there are parts of the country, more religious, that FEAR the effects of alcohol, but on the whole we inherited the UK's "drink culture", but just mellowed it out, and had to be more cautions becuase you NEED to drive in most areas.


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## panjabigator

I agree with what Genjen has said.  My parents never outwardly encouraged me to drink or discouraged...they said from day one to drink responsibly...and the only time I was allowed to drink was around family members...and it would be a tiny amount.  My father informed me about all the dangers of drinking when I was young.  I was never told  to just abstain from it, but instead that if I were to drink make sure I do not mix drinks, etc.  My family never drinks anyway, and I never was a big fan of the taste.  I never understood why people in high school were so crazy about drinking and making fools of themselves...although now I admit I do enjoy the second part around my close friends.

I believe in India, there are certain states where you cannot purchase alcohol...like Gujarat (I think).  You can purchase it where Im from though, Punjab.  I do not know if there is a legal drinking age there, but if there is, it is far from enforced.


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## ILT

This is a topic that comes close to home for so many reasons:

I was introduced to social drinking at home because my parents told me: One day you´ll have to order a drink at a work-related dinner and we want you to know what you can drink and how. I´ve never had a problem with alcohol, sometimes I´m in the mood for a drink, most of the time I´m not. However, this approach doesn´t work with everybody because my sister has had her ¨close encounters¨ with binge drinking.  Her group of friends used to be like: if you don´t smoke and don´t drink, how do you have fun?

As for the legal age, in México it is 18, and I know that in the US it is 21, but living on the border is a major problem because there are so many US kids crossing the border just to drink because it is legal here that they create a lot of problems. The major has even suggested to our alcalde to raise the drinking age to prevent US kids from coming over, but that is out of his jurisdiction. What happens is that they used to be involved in so many driving accidents, that now they cross the border walking, and when they return their parents are waiting for them on the other side of the border, so those parents must know that the kids have been drinking. They are the ones permitting it.

As for binge drinking, I was fortunate enough to dodge that ball while attending the university, and somehow my group of friends did the same. To this date we are able to get together for a nice carne asada without a pint of alcohol, we don´t miss it, we don´t need it.

Now, what I don´t understand is how can a government tell me that I´m old enough to suffer the emotional stress of living a war, of killing and of risking being killed, but not old enough to drink a beer. It just doesn´t make any sense to me (maybe because in my country the idea of military service is to attend special exercise sesions during the weekend and teaching adults to read and write). As a parent I understand the worries of the possitility of a kid to potentially drink more than appropriate, but I also think that the main responsibility must fall on the parents and the way they educate their kids. Usually prohibiting something just makes it more luring.


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## MariBR

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Selling alcoholic drink to under-18s, or for an under-18 to attempt to purchase alcohol, is illegal in Ireland.


 
In Brazil it's the same. But - and it's a huge but -  if you are old enough to carry a bottle and have money to pay for it, you can go to the supermarket and buy whatever you want. 

Since I was a kid I could drink wine and beer with my family at home. I really didn't have to go out, to cross borders  , or ask someone else to buy it for me. It was - and I think it still is - almost socially accepted to have a beer, cachaça, wine, any kind of alcohol you want.

Of course we have some problems with kids that drink too much, but *nothing *compared to the binge driking I see here in the UK - especially in such young ages. In Brazil, the major concern is to drink & drive, but you have to be 18 to drive.

I don't think there's a taboo. Maybe an appeal. And I really don't think it's an underage problem. From what I can see, it's the way the society sees adults that drink too much. In London, no one really cares about (and sometimes even think it's funny)  to see drunk people on the streets, the underground, pubs... But in Brazil, if you see a drunk on the street all you see is a real looser.
It's kind of a message that we send to the kids... it's ok or not to get drunk all the time.


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## Brioche

emma42 said:
			
		

> I think the answer is "education, education, education". .


 
What type of education campaign do you think would be needed [or even could] conteract the constant 'education' provided by alcohol advertising, and the behaviour young people see all around them?

The consumption of alcohol is depicted as being an essential part of having a good time, of being sexually attractive, of being a "real" adult &c.

How often are athletes shown celebrating a win with anything other than alcohol? See the English thread above on what sort of people drink Carling Black Label.


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## ceci '79

Max.89 said:
			
		

> I think the italian drinking age is about 16-17.


 
Yes, 16. 

I take a liberal stace and I believe in an adult's freedom to choose his own behaviors. Free will might be an optimistic abstraction, even an illusion, but in my opinion it is still preferable to assume its existence in order to regulate human behaviours and interactions.

Freedom of choice (after 18) and full awareness of the consequences create responsible citizens.


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## lauranazario

In Puerto Rico the legal drinking age is 18.

Keeping hydrated is a necessity here on this tropical island where it's almost always hot and one is almost always thirsty.... and maybe that's part of the reason why social (alcohol) drinking is very pervasive here. I guess that's as far as I can go with any sort of a 'blanket' explanation.

I cannot deny that our culture could be regarded as more 'permissive' than that of the USA, for example... where the country's moral compass seems (emphasis on 'seems') to veer towards _demonizing_ alcohol these days. Life is all about cycles, so maybe the US social pendulum is swinging close to the frame of mind that ended up enacting The Prohibition? That I don't know... but sometimes I wonder.

Anyway, back to PR... a lot of alcohol is consumed locally and a lot of people seem to enjoy it. Both young and old. Happy Hours are HUGELY popular here. Up until a couple of years ago, you could walk down the street with an open can of beer (but it had to be stowed inside a brown paper bag --defies explanation, I know... it's a cultural thing). Now there are specific public ordinances prohibiting it.

One of the things people drink most over here is beer --it's a matter of economics (cheaper!) and generational preferences (heavily influenced by marketing. _Light beer, less calories_ hype).
My father's generation drank Rum... good ol' Puerto Rican Rum (golden rum, mind you... white rum came into fashion a bit later). Ladies hardly ever touched the stuff (or maybe they had Gin, mostly because it smells like perfume?)

Alcohol consumption is such a cultural 'standard' here that if you have even a small gathering of friends at your house, you always stock up on alcoholic beverages.

Oh, and sadly we PRs tend to drink AND drive. The designated driver thing hasn't really caught on yet... and unfortunately we have the accident statistics to prove it (or at least I think we do).

Someone on this thread said something about a parent teaching its child it's better to learn to drink at home... or something to that effect. Which reminds me of this little story.

It was Christmastime. A huge Nazario extended family celebration. One of my male teenage cousins was 'stealing drinks' from the bar table set out in full view. He was boasting to us female cousins that he was sooooo cool. His father (the host of the party) caught him. He said to his son, "so, you wanna drink with the men?" The man served the teenager a stiff one.. and another... and another. Shortly thereafter my cousin was puking his brains out. He was put to bed by his own father... and before that happened I heard my cousin say to his father (as they were walking towards his bedroom) "I thought I was going to die. I'm never going to touch the stuff again."

"Never" is such a strong word, isn't it?  Well today my cousin drinks --socially and responsibly. He was lucky he learned early on, and he learned at home. Thank God for that.


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## Johnny Blaze

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Selling alcoholic drink to under-18s, or for an under-18 to attempt to purchase alcohol, is illegal in Ireland.


In name only.

Young people here start drinking around the age of 13 on. Yeah, Ireland is a nation of drunkards


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## maxiogee

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Selling alcoholic drink to under-18s, or for an under-18 to attempt to purchase alcohol, is illegal in Ireland.





			
				Johnny Blaze said:
			
		

> In name only.



Is there any _other_ way to be illegal?


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## Johnny Blaze

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Is there any _other_ way to be illegal?


By saying it's illegal "in name only" I was merely alluding to the fact that the law is virtually un-enforced.


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## estrella de mar

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Yikes, I don't want to get off topic about this, but I just want to say my two bits! I think the drinking age is appropriate...why? Because the majority of youth are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of drinking...it is just too serious to tamper with at a young age. That being said, I don't see any issue in serving your country starting at the age of 18. And btw, you can drink on military bases.


 
So can an 18/19/20 year old soldier drink alcohol on a US military base, if the legal age is 21 on mainland USA?


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## timpeac

As has been mentioned, the age for buying alcohol from shops in the UK is 18. However I _believe_ that it is 14 in restaurants, certainly my parents always gave me wine in restaurants from around that age and the only place anyone said anything was in the US!There I thought the way they handled it was very good - they didn't argue, they simply asked for some ID.

Anyhow, binge-drinking, under-age drinking, and above all under-age binge drinking are a huge problem here. All (ok, many (most?))kids from early teens onwards seem to view alcohol as necessary for a good time out, and moreover the more you can get down your neck the better. This attitude calms down (usually) into the 20s but there is still very much a drinking culture here. On a Friday, and possibly other days, people will often go to a pub after work and have several pints of beer or glasses of wine on an empty stomach, maybe grab something to eat and then go clubbing.

I think this unhealthy attitude is due to many reasons. Principally this sort of behaviour seems to have become viewed simply as normal (I should add in all this that I am just the same as my friends and colleagues in this, I am far from T-total). That of course begs the question of why this has become the norm. I partly blame licensing laws here. For many years, since early last century, pubs have closed at 11 on weekdays and 10.30 on Sundays. This has now changed this year so that pubs can open later, but this early closing has led to people drinking quickly and as much as they can because they are not ready to go home at 11. They also start drinking earlier, often before dinner and so drink on an empty stomach. We also drink (usually) in pints as opposed to halves as do most other European countries. We also drink in rounds (person A buys a drink for A B C and D, then person B buys for everyone, then C etc) and go up to the bar to order ourselves. This means that people drink large drinks at the speed of the quickest drinker since the first to finish will go up to the bar. In many other countries you pay for you own and have to wait for a waiter to arrive.

Finally, I think this has to do with a very strong drug not being properly controlled at all. Alcohol banning doesn't work, but it is a dangerous drug in many respects. The amount viewed as "safe" per day is ridiculously low, one to four units depending on who you believe. Many people are _always_ going to drink more than that in a night out (it's not even 2 pints, 2 drinks) and so they disregard the health issues completely. After all, if they are alread "over the limit" why worry further (they might think to themselves). I think the government should admit defeat on this safe limit and give people better advice generally. For example "if you are going to drink over 3 units then really try to stop before 10 (or whatever) because at that point your liver is in serious danger" (I made that up - but I hope you see my point. Indeed, it shows the lack of information we have that I have no idea of the levels of drinking that seriously put your health at risk).

I think that if alcohol were discovered today it would never be legalised - it's just too addictive and noxious for the relative pleasures. Given the fact that many people - rightly or wrongly - like to put reality aside for a while from time to time, it is one of the few legal drugs that can do this and so by far the easiest and most socially acceptable to get hold of. I think that all drugs should be legalised but full support and advice put in place to help people make the right decisions, but that is slightly off-topic here. It does seem to me no wonder that if you have only one legal mind-altering drug around, and the safe limit of that drug is very low, you are going to have people abusing it - or rather abusing their bodies. If those people are young, and unused to that drug and not yet good at making sensible decisions, it follows that many people abusing their bodies will be young.

As to the age for drinking - I think it has to be the same as when you can vote, go to the army, drive, buy a house etc etc. I don't by that mean it should necessarily be 18 but that whether it is 16 or 21 it should be the same for all these activities. It makes no sense to have different ages for some and some for others. I don't see the age you are allowed to start buying alcohol as particularly key to this problem. It is the social standards of the adults that are simply being reflected by the kids, and they will do that no matter what the legal age is.


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## panjabigator

estrella de mar said:
			
		

> So can an 18/19/20 year old soldier drink alcohol on a US military base, if the legal age is 21 on mainland USA?




Yes.


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## ceci '79

timpeac said:
			
		

> I think that if alcohol were discovered today it would never be legalised - it's just too addictive and noxious for the relative pleasures. Given the fact that many people - rightly or wrongly - like to put reality aside for a while from time to time, it is one of the few legal drugs that can do this and so by far the easiest and most socially acceptable to get hold of. I think that all drugs should be legalised but full support and advice put in place to help people make the right decisions, but that is slightly off-topic here.


 
There is only one problem: alcohol has two functions. It tastes good with food (a glass of wine enhances the taste of most dishes) and it can be used as a drug. Marijuana, for example, is only used as a drug. So, alcohol is not only a drug.


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## timpeac

ceci '79 said:
			
		

> There is only one problem: alcohol has two functions. It tastes good with food (a glass of wine enhances the taste of most dishes) and it can be used as a drug. Marijuana, for example, is only used as a drug. So, alcohol is not only a drug.


I'm sure if they tried they could invent something that was either identical to taste to alcohol with food or something nicer. But in terms of problem drinking (eg quite specifically _not _those people who have one glass of wine a day with their meal) I'm sure that the pleasure people get from having some alcohol with their food could be gone without - particularly when you think how pernicious alcohol is generally. I say all this with a large glass of white in my hand, by the way.


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## ceci '79

timpeac said:
			
		

> I'm sure if they tried they could invent something that was either identical to taste to alcohol with food or something nicer. But in terms of problem drinking (eg quite specifically _not _those people who have one glass of wine a day with their meal) I'm sure that the pleasure people get from having some alcohol with their food could be gone without - particularly when you think how pernicious alcohol is generally. I say all this with a large glass of white in my hand, by the way.


 
Judging from the taste of non-alcoholic beer (near beer), I'd say they are a long way from discovering such a magic potion!  

I wonder if alcohol is used mostly one way or the other, worldwide. Are there more problem drinkers or pleasure/social drinkers who derive no harm from it?

Nobody would forbid the sale of glue because some people sniff glue, for example. Almost anything can be used for harmful purposes, in this world.


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## timpeac

ceci '79 said:
			
		

> Judging from the taste of non-alcoholic beer (near beer), I'd say they are a long way from discovering such a magic potion!
> 
> I wonder if alcohol is used mostly one way or the other, worldwide. Are there more problem drinkers or pleasure/social drinkers who derive no harm from it?
> 
> Nobody would forbid the sale of glue because some people sniff glue, for example. Almost anything can be used for harmful purposes, in this world.


This is true. However, glue is very useful. I just can´t imagine them legalising alcohol if it were discovered tomorrow just because it tastes nice (with or without food). I used to smoke cigarettes and I actively enjoyed the taking back of the smoke. If the health-damaging aspect could be eliminated I might consider smoking cigarettes again.

I also wonder how many people "abuse" alcohol. I suspect the number is very high because the safe limits are very low. Many people who consider themselves moderate drinkers are probably heavy drinkers in their doctors' eyes. I think - speaking for the UK - someone who drinks always and only within safe limits would be viewed pretty much as a non-drinker, in the same way some vegetarians eat fish or have their veggies cooked in fish-chicken stock (or at least don't ask)


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## ceci '79

timpeac said:
			
		

> If the health-damaging aspect could be eliminated I might consider smoking cigarettes again.


 
I see your point about the usefulness of glue. But there is a general consensus that a glass or two of wine at dinner have no negative effects on health, while most doctors insist that there is no safe number of cigarettes you can smoke per day.



			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> Many people who consider themselves moderate drinkers are probably heavy drinkers in their doctors' eyes.


 
Absolutely. I read the findings of an official Swedish survey stating that a considerable number of young drinkers who considered themselves "moderate or social drinkers" were in fact drinking way too much. They even had a test you could take to determine whether you abuse alcohol. 



			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> I think - speaking for the UK - someone who drinks always and only within safe limits would be viewed pretty much as a non-drinker, in the same way some vegetarians eat fish or have their veggies cooked in fish-chicken stock (or at least don't ask)


 
 Interesting. I think we have a different image of what a "drinker" is. I guess I'm a non-drinker, then... and a vegetarian who tends to avoid chicken stock on top of that! Scary, am I not? I must admit that sometimes I don't ask, though.


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## Blackleaf

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Selling alcoholic drink to under-18s, or for an under-18 to attempt to purchase alcohol, is illegal in Ireland.
> 
> Underage drinking is a huge problem here.


 
Ireland is by far the biggest binge-drinking nation in Europe.

You're the only country in Europe (possibly the Western World) in which each person spends, on average, over half (50%) of their total annual income on alcohol.  The rest of that goes to all the other things - mortages, rent, new clothes, food, etc.

The Irish are well ahead even of the British when it comes to binge-drinking.


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## Blackleaf

Max.89 said:
			
		

> I think the italian drinking age is about 16-17.


 
That just goes to show those people from the US (and New Zealand) that a low age at which you are legally allowed to buy alcohol doesn't necessarily lead to large amounts of young people getting drunk and binge-drinking.

In Italy, I think you have to be 16 to buy alcohol.  In France, you have to be 16.  But there are almost NO alcohol-related problems in those countries such as binge-drinking and drunken violence.  

In Switzerland, you only have to be 14 to be legally allowed to buy alcohol, and again the Swiss have almost no problems with drunkenness.


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## maxiogee

Blackleaf said:
			
		

> Ireland is by far the biggest binge-drinking nation in Europe.
> 
> You're the only country in Europe (possibly the Western World) in which each person spends, on average, over half (50%) of their total annual income on alcohol.  The rest of that goes to all the other things - mortages, rent, new clothes, food, etc.
> 
> The Irish are well ahead even of the British when it comes to binge-drinking.



As a recovering alcoholic I need to be careful where I tread in this debate.
But, whilst accepting our position at the head of the table, I must ask you where the 50% figure came from?

I quote from a BeverageDaily.com web page:-
With spending of €1,584 in 2002, Euromonitor's report shows that the Irish spend more per head on alcoholic drinks than anyone else in the world. But this is not necessarily linked to a high volume of consumption alone – other factors such as taxation and the importance of the pub culture also play a part.

This is not to say, of course, that the Irish are not fond of their drink – indeed they are second only to the Czechs in terms of per capita consumption at ready-to-drink level. This is primarily down to the high volumes of beer consumed in both countries. In Ireland, some 151 litres of beer per person were consumed in 2002 while in the Czech Republic, per capita consumption totalled 163 litres.

However, a somewhat different picture emerges when looking at consumption in pure alcohol terms: Ireland's per capita consumption is just slightly higher than Germany's at 11.8 and 11.5 litres of pure alcohol per head respectively. While Germany is behind Ireland in per capita consumption of beer, it is a higher consumer of wine and spirits, both of which have a much higher alcohol content.

I think you'll find that the average income was considerably higher than €3,168 in 2002!

This from Wikipedia (have the salt cellar nearby) Wikipedia:-
Ireland has been reported to have the second highest per capita income of any country in the EU next to Luxembourg, and fourth highest in the world.


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## Manuel_M

As a social worker who has been working in the field of alcohol treatment (and lately development of Alcohol Policy) for more than 2 decades, I found this discussion engrossing and fascinating.

Over here the legal age for drinking is......0!! The _selling_ of alcohol to under 16's is prohibited, but its purchase, consumption, or its supply is not. We have one of the highest rates of alcohol consumption in Europe, among 15 and 16 year-olds, and despite being a Mediterranean country our youngsters rank right up there with the Scandinavians in the league tables of the heaviest drinkers in the 15-16 age-group. All of us who work in the field believe that the lack of legislation, and deficiences in enforcement of what little legislation exists are partly to blame for this. In fact, the day before yesterday a Bill was published which proposes to make purchase, consumption, and supply to individuals below the age of 16 illegal. Most of us would have been far happier see the age-limit set at 18.

On a more general note, while education is the buzz-word, experience has shown that it, unfortunately, it does not work. The World Health Organisation is convinced that only legislation (raising the age-limit to 18, very strict drink-driving-laws, control of advertising, banning alcohol at the place of work) and fiscal measures (i.e. raising the price of alcohol through taxation) are effective in curbing abusive drinking. No alcoholic was ever deterred from drinking through such measures, but the most serious social problems associated with heavy drinking (murders, suicides, domestic and other types of violence, drink-driving accidents etc) involve alcohol abusers, rather than dependant drinkers. The principle on which alcohol policis are to be based, according to the WHO is, in a nutshell: limit the availability of alcohol, and problems will decrease accordingly. This approach, by the way, has been statistically shown to be effective in many countries.

One word about binge-drinking: until a decade or so ago, in Europe this phenomenon was largely restricted to the Northern part (Scandinavia, Great Britain etc). It no longer is the case, as some posters indicated. All over Europe, binge-drinking (which basically means drinking a lot over a short period of time with the express intention of getting drunk) is manifesting itself as a pattern of drinking (and of entertainment) increasingly being favoured by young people. Most of them will grow out of it by the time they're 21, but with some it will persist, and will have serious effects on the health - both of the drinkers, and tragically, on that of those who come into contact with him/her.

So, while to us the prohibition of drinking to people who are over 18 seems absurd (especially when it's okay for these same individuals to die for their country), the USA's stringent attitudes towards drinking are held up ( by many alcohol experts  as a paragon of what a country's approach to alcohol should be like. The US's problems with teenage binge drinking are much less severe than they are in Europe, though they might not look that way to peopel living in the US. As I said earler the leit-motif of Alcohol policy (according to the WHO) is to try and limit alcohol intake as much as possible, without however ever contemplating the lunacy of Prohibition.


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## Brioche

lauranazario said:
			
		

> In Puerto Rico the legal drinking age is 18.
> 
> Keeping hydrated is a necessity here on this tropical island where it's almost always hot and one is almost always thirsty.... and maybe that's part of the reason why social (alcohol) drinking is very pervasive here.


 
We get that faulty rationale in tropical Australia, too.
However, alcohol is actually dehydrating. 

If you drink a lot, this dehydrating effect is part of reason for feeling so rotten the next day.


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## MizD09

Oye.
I was born in Italy. But I'm Puerto Rican American. The drinking age in the US is promoted more for maturity and for the responsibility of your actions. I believe in this case, that the age is set properly. Over in Puerto Rico my family is a large family. There are mostly children of the ages 1-20. My familiy lets us drink at almost any age. Binge drinking is a huge problemo for the US because its only one of a few ways to fix problemos for a short period of time. In Puerto Rico, there are many more ways. I believe that there should be different ages in different countries for drinking.


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## Layzie

I hate our drinking age Especially considering that you can join the army at 18 but can't drink until you're 21.


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## panjabigator

I agree with you in some respect Layzie...but only that they should both be 21 if anything!  I honestly do not want the drinking age to lower at all....it will only encourage a problem.


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## ullex

emma42 said:
			
		

> I think the answer is "education, education, education".



I absolutely agree. Nothing magical happens to someone when they turn 21--There's an innumerable mass of 21 year olds who are no more ready for responsible drinking than 18 year olds. "Resposible drinking" is hardly introduced as an option here in The States; only complete avoidance. I have a very close friend who was hospitalized for alcohol poisoning on his 21st birthday. Naturally, people are over eager to drink as much as they can when they're finally legal to (not that they even refrain when they _aren't _legal). This has become a blossoming aspect of early-adulthood, and I think that *education *is the only effective means by which to teach people about responsible drinking.


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## tvdxer

I am in the U.S. also, Minnesota to be exact, where the drinking age is 21 as it is everywhere today.  When my parents were my age (early 1980's) it was 19, or 18 across the bridge in Wisconsin.  People back then seemed to drink a lot more from how they talk, but I doubt that has anything to with the law as it extended to adults of all ages.  

I think it's a bit ridiculous that one can serve in the armed forces and even die for their country yet cannot have a beer or two when home.  Personally I see the more internationally common 18 as a good age - maybe 15 or 16 for drinking wine in restaurants with parents.   A graded sort of age might help avoid the ridiculous and dangerous drinking-age birthday festivities. It seems that the high drinking age promotes immaturity with respect to drinking as well - go to Myspace and look at all the pictures of American 18 and 19 year olds holding bottles of vodka or beer and looking as though they are delighted pirates who have found some wonderful clandenstine object.  Perhaps it leads to many simply drinking to get drunk at college parties or high school house parties when their parents are gone, leading to more irresponsible habits.​


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## maxiogee

tvdxer said:
			
		

> I think it's a bit ridiculous that one can serve in the armed forces and even die for their country yet cannot have a beer or two when home.



Why is it ridiculous?


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