# 咱们 zánmen versus 我们 wǒmen



## piano0011

From my understanding, zanmen includes the listener but according to my book, you cannot use zanmen here but must use women:

women zou le
women zhu zai zheli

I thought both should include the listener and therefore, you should be able to say..

zanmen zou le 
zanmen zhu zai zheli


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## Billy Zhong

piano0011 said:


> From my understanding, zanmen includes the listener but according to my book, you cannot use zanmen here but must use women:
> 
> women zou le
> women zhu zai zheli
> 
> I thought both should include the listener and therefore, you should be able to say..
> 
> zanmen zou le
> zanmen zhu zai zheli


I don't understand why your book would said so.😂In my opinion,咱们 and 我们 are two words that have exactly the same meaning.The only difference is that 咱们 is a closer way to say 我们 .
So the four sentences above are all right.


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## piano0011

Billy Zhong said:


> I don't understand why your book would said so.😂In my opinion,咱们 and 我们 are two words that have exactly the same meaning.The only difference is that 咱们 is a closer way to say 我们 .
> So the four sentences above are all right.


I believe that I now understand why it is wrong.... zanmen includes the listener so when we say... women zou le.... we have left but the listener doesn't have to follow you....


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## hx1997

While 咱们 indeed includes the listener, 我们 doesn't necessarily exclude the listener. 我们 _in writing_ can mean either. Also, this distinction between 我们/咱们 _in speech_ is largely a northern China thing.


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## piano0011

hx1997 said:


> While 咱们 indeed includes the listener, 我们 doesn't necessarily exclude the listener. 我们 _in writing_ can mean both. Also, this distinction between 我们/咱们 _in speech_ is largely a northern China thing.


thanks for pointing that out..


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## SuperXW

Billy Zhong said:


> I don't understand why your book would said so.😂In my opinion,咱们 and 我们 are two words that have exactly the same meaning.


When there are 2 or more parties, 我们≠咱们. E.g. 我们(our party)负责这件事 ≠ 咱们(all parties)负责这件事。


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## piano0011

SuperXW said:


> When there are 2 or more parties, 我们≠咱们. E.g. 我们(our party)负责这件事 ≠ 咱们(all parties)负责这件事。


thanks..


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## Billy Zhong

SuperXW said:


> When there are 2 or more parties, 我们≠咱们. E.g. 我们(our party)负责这件事 ≠ 咱们(all parties)负责这件事。


I've never encountered such disagreements in my whole life.


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## piano0011

I still think my book is right in that zanmen consists of the listener involved and as mentioned.... women zou le means that we have left but the listener might still be there, so that is why zanmen is wrong to use here...


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## 2PieRad

Firstly, is it odd that I far, FAR, prefer the pronunciation zamen over zanmen?


piano0011 said:


> From my understanding, zanmen includes the listener but according to my book, you cannot use zanmen here but must use women:
> 
> women zou le
> women zhu zai zheli
> 
> I thought both should include the listener and therefore, you should be able to say..
> 
> zanmen zou le
> zanmen zhu zai zheli



I think I agree with your textbook. Something sounds slightly off to me when you say 咱们走了、咱们住在这里。 咱们走吧/咱们（就）住在这里吧 sound better. 
But 我们 sounds fine for all the cases. 我们走了， 我们走吧， 我们住在这里，我们（就）住在这里吧。 

Is it because 咱们 tends to include the listener? I'm not sure...   🤷‍♂️


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## Lamb67

How do you use 咱们 zánmen
😘So you say 咱们这儿, acknowledging the listener's authority while trying to build up a good rapport at the same time.


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## SuperXW

Billy Zhong said:


> I've never encountered such disagreements in my whole life.


……就算是南方人也不至于没见过吧？这两个词显然不能混用啊。

A: 张总，*咱们*这个项目什么时候能签？
B: 这是*你们*部门的项目，*我们*怎么知道？
A: *我们*是负责对接客户，但合同是*你们*审啊，*咱们*董事长可是一直在催啊！


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## 2PieRad

piano0011 said:


> women zou le means that we have left but the listener might still be there,


I think 我们走了 without context would tend to mean “We’re leaving/we’re planning to leave soon”, and probably does not include the listener. 我们走吧 without context would probably mean “let’s leave”, and includes the listener.


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## Billy Zhong

SuperXW said:


> ……就算是南方人也不至于没见过吧？这两个词显然不能混用啊。
> 
> A: 张总，*咱们*这个项目什么时候能签？
> B: 这是*你们*部门的项目，*我们*怎么知道？
> A: *我们*是负责对接客户，但合同是*你们*审啊，*咱们*董事长可是一直在催啊！


A: 张总，*我们*这个项目什么时候能签？
B: 这是你们部门的项目，*我们*怎么知道？
A: *我们*是负责对接客户，但合同是你们审啊，*我们*董事长可是一直在催啊！

并不觉得有什么不妥


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## SuperXW

Billy Zhong said:


> A: 张总，*我们*这个项目什么时候能签？
> B: 这是你们部门的项目，*我们*怎么知道？
> A: *我们*是负责对接客户，但合同是你们审啊，*我们*董事长可是一直在催啊！
> 
> 并不觉得有什么不妥


南方少用甚至有地区不用“咱们”，只用“我们”，是可以理解的。
但在经常使用“咱们”的地区，两个词的分别就如其它网友所说。
第一句使用“咱们”就表示是共同的项目。第二句使用“你们”“我们”是明确职责界定。第三句用“咱们董事长”强调是双方共同领导。这些都是故意选用的称谓。
如果这是小说片段，使用“我们董事长”会让读者怀疑双方是否隶属不同的董事长，而“咱们董事长”则明确是同一个人。

而且你之前的观点是，“我们”“咱们”exactly the same.
如果尝试把上述所有“我们”换成“咱们”，或者随意调换，就更莫名其妙了。如：
A: 张总，_我们_这个项目什么时候能签？
B: 这是你们部门的项目，_咱们_怎么知道？
A: _咱们_是负责对接客户，但合同是你们审啊，_我们_董事长可是一直在催啊！


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## Billy Zhong

SuperXW said:


> 南方少用甚至有地区不用“咱们”，只用“我们”，是可以理解的。
> 但在经常使用“咱们”的地区，两个词的分别就如其它网友所说。
> 第一句使用“咱们”就表示是共同的项目。第二句使用“你们”“我们”是明确职责界定。第三句用“咱们董事长”强调是双方共同领导。这些都是故意选用的称谓。
> 如果这是小说片段，使用“我们董事长”会让读者怀疑双方是否隶属不同的董事长，而“咱们董事长”则明确是同一个人。
> 
> 而且你之前的观点是，“我们”“咱们”exactly the same.
> 如果尝试把上述所有“我们”换成“咱们”，或者随意调换，就更莫名其妙了。如：
> A: 张总，_我们_这个项目什么时候能签？
> B: 这是你们部门的项目，_咱们_怎么知道？
> A: _咱们_是负责对接客户，但合同是你们审啊，_我们_董事长可是一直在催啊！


“咱们今天晚上去吃啥？”“我们今天晚上去吃啥？”
这是南方人通常用到的句式 你举的那些例子在南方都只会用我们而不用咱们


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## Billy Zhong

SuperXW said:


> ……就算是南方人也不至于没见过吧？这两个词显然不能混用啊。
> 
> A: 张总，*咱们*这个项目什么时候能签？
> B: 这是*你们*部门的项目，*我们*怎么知道？
> A: *我们*是负责对接客户，但合同是*你们*审啊，*咱们*董事长可是一直在催啊！


所以南方人确实会有没见过的 不用惊讶


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## piano0011

appreciate all the suggestions......


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## Youngfun

不能说没区别，所有的咱们都可以改成我们，但是我们不一定是咱们


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## Tsau

Your book is right, if you are learning northeast dialect.
In Northeast Dialect of Mandarin, usually "zanmen" includes the listener while "women" doesn't. However, most Mandarin speakers would agree that while "zanmen" includes the listener, "women" can mean either according to the context.


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