# mubtada2 - khabar المبتدأ - الخبر



## Pivra

Hello again, 


 Can anyone please explain to me which one does what please.  For example if I have a sentence, lets say..

Fee usratee thalaathah aulaad.  Which would be mubtadaa which would be khabar? 


Thank you


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## Flaminius

Hi,

I don't know the Arabic grammar terms but let me try explaining the sentence.

fī = in
isratiy = my family
thalātha = three
awlād = children (plural)

So, the sentence is literally:
In my family, [there are] three children.


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## Pivra

I made the sentence hehe. I am doing my homework and it asks me to identify the mubtabaa and khabar of the sentences.


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## elroy

Flaminius said:


> fī = in
> usratī (often pronounced "usrati") = my family
> thalātha = three
> awlād = children (plural)


 The mubtada2 is "thalaathatu awlaadin" and the khabar is "fii usrati."

Normally the mubtada2 comes first but this is an exception.

The question to ask yourself is "Which of the two elements are we being told something about?"  We are being told something about "three children."  We are being told that they are "in my family."  So "three children" is the mubtada2 and "in my family" is the khabar.

As a side note, I don't think that a prepositional phrase (like "fii usrati") can ever be a mubtada2.


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## ayed

*في أسرتي ثلاثة أطفال*
*في أسرتي* :khabar muqaddam
*ثلاثة أطفال* :mubtada mu2akh/khar
The whoe sentence is this: 
*يوجد ثلاثة أطفال في أسرت**ي*
*ثلاثة أطفال في أسرتي *


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## elroy

ayed said:


> The whoe sentence is this:
> *يوجد ثلاثة أطفال في أسرتي *


 That sentence has the same _meaning_ as the other one, but it's grammatically and syntactically different - it doesn't even have a mubtada2 and a khabar.  So it's not accurate to suggest that the other sentence is simply a shortened version of this one.


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## ayed

If so, then what is the accurate answer, Elroy?


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## elroy

See my explanation in Post #4.


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## ayed

Thanks , Elroy. Didn't pay attention .


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## cherine

ayed said:


> If so, then what is the accurate answer, Elroy?


I agree with Elroy, Ayed. Your sentence, while giving the same meaning is a جملة فعلية so there's neither a mubtada2 nor a khabar, but a فعل وفاعل .

Pivra, as Elroy and Ayed said, having a preposition at the begining of the nominal sentence changes the order of المبتدأ والخبر because the preposition and the word following it will be the khabar.
Usually, a nominal sentence starts with a "simple" word, not a preposition nor an iDaafa structure. Something like:
البيتُ كبيرٌ
al-bayt*u* kabiir*un*.
البيت is the mubtada2, and كبير is the khabar. Note the vowelisation of the two words: البيت takes a Damma, while كبير takes a tanwiin because it's an indefinite word. So, you should also remember that المبتدأ is always a definite word, and that the khabar is always and indefinite word. If the word following the mubtada2 is also definite, then it's an adjective of that mubtada2, not a khabar. Example:
البيتُ البعيدُ كبيرُ
al-bayt*u* 'l-ba3iid*u* kabiir*un*.
In this sentence, "al-ba3iidu" is an adjective of "al-bayt".
Or, to use the same word "kabiir":
البيتُ الكبيرُ بعيدٌ
al-baytu 'l-kabiiru ba3iidun
Here, when كبير became definite الكبير it's no more a khabar, but an adjective of البيت .

I hope this is not too much information. If you need more clarification, please don't hesitate to ask.


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## Pivra

how about the sentence


lihu sadeeq wahed faqat. ? (He only has one friend) 

Which would be the mubtadaa and which would be the khabar? 

 I didnt take Arabic for 5 months and this semester I am taking it again and I forgot everything.


The homework's topic says the questions in this tamreen, they are all jumlah al ismiyyah.   I can compose sentences but grammar names are very very hard


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## cherine

Pivra said:


> The homework's topic says the questions in this tamreen, they are all jumlah al ismiyyah.  I can compose sentences but grammar names are very very hard


I'll start with your last comment.
I'm not good at grammatical terminolgy in English either, but I think a jumla ismiyya is a nominal sentence. And that is the sentence that does not start with a verb. A sentence starting with a verb is a jumla fi3liyya جملة فعلية verbal sentence.
Mainly, a nominal sentence should start with a noun اسم but it can also start with a particle/preposition, like the sentences you give.


> how about the sentence
> lahu sadeeq wahed faqat. ? (He only has one friend)
> 
> Which would be the mubtadaa and which would be the khabar?


Your mind seems to insist on making sentences that starts with prepositions  Why don't you try something simpler to make things easier for you?

The sentence له صديق واحد is a bit advanced (I studied it a year or so after having studied the nominal sentence) and that it because you first need to know that له is a شبه جملة (shibh jumla) which literllay means "semi-sentence", and that a شبه جملة cannot be a mubtada2.
Anyway, to get to the point:
In a sentence starting with a جار ومجرور (like a preposition and the word or pronoun following it), both the jaarr and the majruur (together) are considered a khabar خبر مقدَّم , and the word following them is the "postponed" mubtada2 مبتدأ مؤخر .
له : khabar muqaddam
صديق : mubtada2 mu2akhkhar


Please try again with sentences starting with a noun. Things like: the sky is big/blue, the school is far, the girl is pretty, the guy is handsome.... They'll be much easier for you to determine which is a mubtada2 and which is a khabar.
Give it a try, and I'll be glad to help you.


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## Pivra

Thank you very much.   I am trying to understand it .

how about .... Harvard aqdam jaami3ah amrikiyyah.

Bob lahu 3 ikhwah, huwa akbarhum.

Ommi tadrus al lughah al faransiyyah fee madrasah thaanawiyyah.


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## cherine

Pivra said:


> Thank you very much.  I am trying to understand it .


You're welcome. And don't worry, it will take you some time, but it's really a very simple thing. Just keep with simple sentences till you master it.


> Harvard aqdam jaami3ah amrikiyyah.


هارفرد mubtada2
أقدمُ khabar
جامعةٍ muDaaf ilayh
أمريكية Sifa/na3t (adj.)


> Bob lahu 3 ikhwatun, huwa akbarhum.



Another not-simple sentence. I'm not sure myself about له إخوة ! 
Bob: mubtada2
lahu: جار ومجرور
ikhwatun: ??



> Ommi tadrusu al lughata al faransiyyata fee madrasatin thaanawiyyatin.


This is a very longue sentence, and have some complexe concepts 
أمي mubtada (actually, it's only أم that is the mubtada2 and the yaa2 is a مضاف إليه)
تدرس khabar (this is more complex. تدرس is a verb, not a noun, and the subject of this verb is ضمير مستتر تقديره هي -an "assessed" pronoun. Here the verb and the "assessed" subject together form the khabar, we call it جملة فعلية في محل رفع خبر )
اللغةَ maf3uul bihi
الفرنسية na3t (adj.)
...

Pivra, please try these sentence:
الشجرة خضراء
الولد ذكي
البنت جميلة
الرجل متعلم

And compare the same with
الشجرة الخضراء
الولد الذكي
البنت الجميلة
الرجل المتعلم
To give you a hint: the second group are not complete sentences.


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## elroy

Re. بوب له ثلاثة إخوة, which is indeed pretty complex grammatically. :

بوب: مبتدأ

له: خبر مقدم
ثلاثة: مبتدأ مؤخر
إخوة: مضاف إليه

والجملة الإسمية ("له ثلاثة إخوة") في محل رفع خبر


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## djamal 2008

و كان له ثلاثة إخوة
ما إعراب هذه الجملة؟


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## elroy

djamal 2008 said:


> كان له ثلاثة إخوة



كان: فعل ماضٍ ناقص

له: خبر كان مقدم

ثلاثة: اسم كان مؤخر
إخوة: مضاف إليه​


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## cherine

elroy said:


> Re. بوب له ثلاثة أخوة, which is indeed pretty complex grammatically. :
> 
> بوب: مبتدأ
> له: خبر مقدم
> ثلاثة: مبتدأ مؤخر
> أخوة: مضاف إليه
> 
> والجملة الإسمية ("له ثلاثة أخوة") في محل رفع خبر


That's it  Thanks 


djamal 2008 said:


> و كان له ثلاثة إخوة
> ما إعراب هذه الجملة؟


كان: فعل ماض ناقص
له: خبر كان مقدم
ثلاثة: اسم كان مؤخر
إخوة: مضاف إليه

P.S. We posted almost in the same time


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## arsham

mubtada=subject (fa'el=agent, which could overlap with subject if the verb is active)
khabar=predicate


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## cherine

arsham said:


> mubtada=subject (fa'el=agent, which could overlap with subject if the verb is active)


Welcome to the Arabic forum, Arsham 

I think it's either you're mixing two things, or I'm not understanding you well.
Personally, I wouldn't use the term of "faa3el" when speaking of a nominal sentence, because it (the faa3el فاعل) only comes in a verbal sentence.

As a side note, I though that maybe explaining the words mubtada2 and khabar can make it easier to understand them.
The word مبتدأ comes from the verb بدأ = to start. So a mubtada2 is like the begining or the start of the -nominal- sentence. When it's preceded by the khabar (like when the khabar is جار ومجرور or a ظرف ) the mubtada2 is called مبتدأ مؤخَّر which means that it was kind of "postponed" or moved from its place.
As for the word خبر it means "news" or "telling about", and that's because the khabar tells about, or describes, the mubtada2. Like in the short sentences I posted above.


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## Pivra

> Pivra, please try these sentence:
> الشجرة خضراء


The Tree is the mubtadaa and Green is the khabar 


> الولد ذكي


The kid is the mubtadaa and smart is the khabar


> البنت جميلة


The chick is the mubtadaa and pretty is the khabar


> الرجل متعلم


The man is the mubtadaa and learner (?? I've never heard this adjective before but I see 3alam so I'll assume it means learner), well, learner is the khabar.

am I right?? 


> And compare the same with
> الشجرة الخضراء


That green tree right there??  lol


> الولد الذكي
> 
> البنت الجميلة
> الرجل المتعلم
> To give you a hint: the second group are not complete sentences.


I give up, whats the difference between the two?? I learn Arabic in my language so it is very difficult but perhaps someone can make it into English or French for me would be very nice because my language is very far from synchronization with Arabic LOL.


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## arsham

cherine said:


> I think it's either you're mixing two things, or I'm not understanding you well.
> Personally, I wouldn't use the term of "faa3el" when speaking of a nominal sentence, because it (the faa3el فاعل) only comes in a verbal sentence.
> 
> As a side note, I though that maybe explaining the words mubtada2 and khabar can make it easier to understand them.
> The word مبتدأ comes from the verb بدأ = to start. So a mubtada2 is like the begining or the start of the -nominal- sentence. When it's preceded by the khabar (like when the khabar is جار ومجرور or a ظرف ) the mubtada2 is called مبتدأ مؤخَّر which means that it was kind of "postponed" or moved from its place.
> As for the word خبر it means "news" or "telling about", and that's because the khabar tells about, or describes, the mubtada2. Like in the short sentences I posted above.



Thanks for the additional info! I did go through the previous posts and just wanted to indicate the proper English term, since "news" is not a grammatical term in English. As for fa'el, what I tried to say is that it'd be better to translate it as agent since in English, no formal distinction is made between nominal and verbal clauses (because English unlike Arabic has a copula!). As for  ظرف, it can be rendered as prepositional complement, which is part of the predicate (خبر) and not equivalent to it( a predicate can contain adjectives as well)! I hope it's now clearer what I meant, but if you want to use Arabic terms in the middle of English sentences, then I don't have any complains!


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## cherine

Pivra said:


> الشجرة خضراء
> The Tree is the mubtadaa and Green is the khabar
> الولد ذكي
> The kid is the mubtadaa and smart is the khabar
> البنت جميلة
> The chick is the mubtadaa and pretty is the khabar
> الرجل متعلم
> The man is the mubtadaa and learner (?? I've never heard this adjective before but I see 3alam so I'll assume it means learner), well, learner is the khabar.
> 
> am I right??


Yes, you are 
متعلم muta3allim means educated.


> And compare the same with
> الشجرة الخضراء
> That green tree right there?? lol


 I was hoping you note the difference between الشجرة خضراء the tree is gree, and الشجرة الخضراء the green tree.
The first sentence is complete (both in Arabic and in English). The second one is not a sentence, it's just a noun and an adjective (in both languages).
The idea is that when the mubtada2 is followed by an indefinite noun, that noun is a khabar, and together they form a complete sentence. When the mubtada2 is followed by a definite noun, that noun is only an adjective, and the sentence is incomplete.


arsham said:


> I did go through the previous posts and just wanted to indicate the proper English term, since "news" is not a grammatical term in English.


Yes, of course, you're right about that. I admit it's very difficult for me to memorize the right English equivalent for Arabic grammatical terminology.


> As for fa'el, what I tried to say is that it'd be better to translate it as agent since in English, no formal distinction is made between nominal and verbal clauses (because English unlike Arabic has a copula!).


Right again. But the idea is that we're not speaking about الفاعل in the first place, because it's only used in verbal sentences not in the nominal ones.


> I hope it's now clearer what I meant, but if you want to use Arabic terms in the middle of English sentences, then I don't have any complains!


You're the one who use fa'el in an English sentence (and in a thread talking about المبتدأ والخبر )  But I think we're clear now.


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## Pivra

thank you everyone


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## aurelien.demarest

Hi guys,

I am getting confused with the اسماء الإستفهام and especially on the fact that if I understand well they can be both مبتدأ or خبر
Could you please help me with the following sentences I am trying to analyse:
In this site if found some example in particular أين المفرُّ
They say أين : اسم استفهام مبني على الفتح ، في محل رفع _*خبر*_ مقدم so it seems that it is here a خبر right?

While in the examples of my book (see the attachment) for ما بك and من مريض they stand that the interrogative particle is مبتدأ  so I don't understand well why in those cases it is مبتدأ while above it is خبر Is there an error?

Regarding أين I say I think it is a خبر because of the explanation on في محل رفع خبر مقدم but I am not 100% sure of what it means, so if someones could translate it it would be welcome.

Thanks in advance
Aurélien


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## rayloom

Notice the last two lines, although not explicitly said, but the first case you have following the interrogative pronoun indefinite nouns or prepositional phrases which are here considered the predicate. This is the normal situation as in
Alwaladu kabīrun : man kabīrun
alwaladu fi 'l-bayti : man fi 'l-bayti
So the interrogative pronoun would be the mubtada2.

The second case you have definite nouns  (either because of the definite article or because of the construct state) following the interrogative pronoun. Thus the pronoun would be considered the predicate.
Alwaldu jayyidun : kayfa 'l-waladu
The interrogative pronoun is the predicate.


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## aurelien.demarest

Many thanks Rayloom for you answer.
Then according to what you said I think that in ما بك we are in the case of an interrogative pronoun followed by a prepositional phrase so it should be
ما : اسم استفهام مبني على الفتح ، في محل رفع مبتدأ 
بك : خبر

is it correct?


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## rayloom

Yes 
If you wanted to be thorough, you would say:
ما: اسم استفهام مبني على السكون في محل رفع مبتدأ
بك: الباء حرف جر مبني على الكسرة لا محل له من الإعراب، والكاف ضمير متصل مبني على الفتح في محل جر اسم مجرور
وشبه الجملة "بك" متعلق بمحذوف في محل رفع خبر
والجملة الاستفهامية "ما بك" لا محل لها من الإعراب.


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## aurelien.demarest

thanks Rayloom


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## rayloom

You're welcome.


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