# Counting your mother tongue...



## natasha2000

I have noticed in this forum that almost all people here count their mother tongue in languages when answering to the question "How many languages do you speak?".

I always say I speak two languages, English and Spanish, and I am not counting Serbian. As a matter of fact,  if I did as others, after all that division of my country, nowadays I could add three more languages to my list - Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, which is pretty the same, but now they are considered as three languages from mainly political and not linguistical reasons. And after the latest separation of Montenegro, I think that very soon I can add another one - Montenegrian. Therefore, I would speak six languages, of which only two I learnt with putting an effort.

So, I think it is a little bit of cheating. Maybe someone was so lucky to have English or Spanish for mother tongue, but it is still his mother tongue and not a language he put a great effort to learn it.

The other curiosity I noticed is that people count alsolanguages they started to learn - which I also think is cheating. You speak one language when you're able to make conversations and discussions, as well as to express yourself in that language without bigger problems. Someone who stsrted to learn language some months ago, cannot possibly be so profficient so as to say he speaks that language.

So, what do you think about this?


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## french4beth

But natasha, whether you learned a language at home or at school, shouldn't it still count as a language? From what you stated above, I think that you can truthfully say that you speak 6 languages, but that Serbian was spoken at home (without 'cheating' ).

People can always clarify their level of fluency if they have just started learning a language - beginner, advanced, intermediate, fluent, etc. Also, I've found that you can know a great deal about a language as it is written, but if you don't practice speaking it, it's hard to express yourself verbally - that doesn't mean that you don't _'know'_ the language.

I can't agree with your statement that languages acquired at home don't require any work - after, it takes children several _years _of practice in order to be able to express themselves meaningfully!


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## natasha2000

I don't know, french4beth, maybe you're right, considering that all people here think like you. But somehow I would feel as if I were cheting if I said I speak 6 languages, or even if I told I spoke only 3, inluding only Serbian. the effort you put to learn some foreign language cannot be compared with an effort you put as a child learning your mother tongue...

I think that the problem is in my division of languages in foreign and mother tongue, and other people see languages in a more general level. Therefore I am always dessaopointed when for example a Catalan says to me he speaks two languages, and then discover that both of them are his mother tongues - Catalan and Spanish. I would always thought he speaks any other two languages but Spanish and Catalan.


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## übermönch

I somehow don't get it. What's the difference between if someone learned a language at school, from parents or by communicating? If the question is which languages you can speak (and not f.e. which _foreign_ languages you speak) it's appropriate to call the ones you do. As you can see I have listed German, Russian and English as my native languages - for the reason I've learnt them in my early youth without any studying. According to you I don't speak any languages at all  (except for very little French & Latin)

As to similar languages, as you probably have seen, some users list both Urdu and Hindi although the main differences between them are the same as between Serbian and Bosnian - the faith of speakers. It is OK as long as you actually speak the languages & not understand or easily fake them because of the similarity to other languages you know - the only problem appears if some language isn't acknowledged as such officialy and seen as a dialect, as it is with Frankon German or Belgian French for example.
Calling the ones which you know very badly is however, indeed, cheating IMHO


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## panjabigator

This is why I removed Urdu from my "native of." I thought about it, and I am not exactly a native of it, though I can speak it colloquially and with fluency (but I have trouble with newspaper vocab because of lack of exposure). But Urdu and Hindi are essentially variants of the same language, so I felt like I was lying by leaving it up there.

I never know what to say when people ask me about Spanish. I know the language (well enough to read and write, although I still make plenty of mistakes), but I have studied the language for so long now that I'd consider that I know it. However, when people ask you what languages you speak, they are not asking for ones you kind of know or that you're not fluent in.

EDIT:  Would you believe a native English speaker spelled *lying* wrong?  I felt like I'd be a liar if I didn't confess!


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## panjabigator

übermönch said:
			
		

> As to similar languages, as you probably have seen, some users list both Urdu and Hindi although the main differences between them are the same as between Serbian and Bosnian - the faith of speakers. It is OK as long as you actually speak the languages & not understand or easily fake them because of the similarity to other languages you know - the only problem appears if some language isn't acknowledged as such officialy and seen as a dialect, as it is with Frankon German or Belgian French for example.
> Calling the ones which you know very badly is however, indeed, cheating IMHO



The main difference between Hindi and Urdu, aside from script, is in official vocabulary.  The news of one country is unintelligible to the other.  It's like taking English and subsituting every "big word" with a Greek word.  I had Urdu there because I can read and write it, and have taken Urdu classes at college, but I still have difficulty with newspapers.  Just a side note.

I agree about the cheating aspect!


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## Ani85

I agree with french4beth...

Why shouldn't I count my mother tongue as a language?? I speak Spanish and English...both studied at school (because although I learned spanish as a child, all the grammar part I saw it later at school). So, I think that I made an effort to learn the two of them...the same effort I'm doing now with French, Italian and Portuguese...

And I can't say I speak also French, Italian and Portuguese?? Why is that? For example Italian, maybe I can't talk fluently, but I understand when somebody talks to me or when I'm reading something...why shouldn't I count it as a third language??


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## Kräuter_Fee

I agree on one thing and disagree on another one.

I don't see why it is cheating to count your mother tongue as a language you speak. If someone asks how many languages you speak they are asking HOW MANY. Then you can explain which one is your mother tongue and so on. I have two mother tongues (Spanish and Portuguese), shouldn't I count them? I think those are the languages that count the most since those are the languages I speak better. Why is it cheating? 
As French4beth says it requires a lot of effort and many years to learn a language, even if it's your mother tongue. And even among people who share the same mother tongue... everyone has a different level of knowledge. There are people who can't read or write, there are people who can but make a lot of mistakes, there are people who also know some grammar and there are people who can read, write perfectly. 

And I do agree that we shouldn't count as languages we speak those we are learning, unless we can have a conversation. I speak 4 languages (my native languages and also English and German). I studied French, Romanian and Chinese, but I don't count them.


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## papillon

I think the mother tongue should absolutely be counted. And hey, if someone grew up speaking 3 languages  like Chinese, Hindi and English -- great for them, they just have a linguistical advantage over the rest of us. And of course, not listing the mother tongue doesn't solve the dilemma of the ex-Yugoslav languages. What if a foreigner learned Serbian in school, then travelled to Montenegro. Same issue -- do they list Serbian, or Serbian and Montenegrian as the languages?

I do agree that counting a language one just started learning is silly, and I think most people didn't include them in the count. From a mathematical perspective, a better poll woulds assign points according to how well you know a language, e.g. with 10 points being on a native-speaker level. So for myself the count would go something like this:

Russian -- native------------           10 points
Ukrainian -pretty good-------         8 points
English -- very good----------          9 points
French ---bit rusty -----------    7 points
Spanish -- beginning --------     2 points

    My total:                     ----------------------36 linguistic points

So I know 3.6 languages (mathematically speaking)


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## cochagua

In my humble opinion, you just can say that you speak a foreign language when you are more or less fluent. I've studied several languages, to find the one I like the most. I will lie to myself and to the others if I say I am able to talk all these languages!!!


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## french4beth

Also - there are many translators who can translate very well (documents, etc), but may not speak the language well, just as there are interpreters who can interpret really well, but may not be able to write well in the foreign language.

I happen to be really good at English (college achievement test - 92% in English, so I scored better than 92% of all college-bound students from both private and public schools), but still make mistakes occasionally, as you can see from my posts. Unfortunately, many native speakers of English do a horrible job of speaking and writing the language (even people with advanced college degrees).  That doesn't mean they don't _know_ the language.

When I was thinking about how learned my native language, I was thinking of my middle child - even though he was very bright (and still is) and had an excellent vocabulary, until he was 3, virtually no one could understand him because he had trouble pronouncing lots of words - since I was a stay-at-home mom at that time, I had no trouble understanding him.  So in my opinion, it's a lot of work to learn any language, whether you learn it at home, or learn it in school (or as an adult).  And iI still don't see how you could call this _cheating..._


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## jester.

What I once read is something like this:

Saying that you "speak" a foreign language is a risky statement, because although you might know it well, there might still be deficiencies in vocabulary and stuff like this.
The point is, when asking how many languages you "speak", I'd say that most people should _only_ name their mother tongue.

But that's just theory and kind of good manners. Actually I think when making a list of "your" languages, you should also include your languages, because that list would be a compilation of all the languages in which you can express your thoughts and ideas to a certain extent.
That would include the languages you learned. In fact everbody also learns his own mother tongue, but it's just a lot easier than with a foreign language. Nonetheless it's a language you learned.

But that's just my 0,02€


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## danielfranco

Well, I was born and raised in Mexico, but I feel I have a better handle on my "adopted" language, English. Although I speak Spanish fluently and it's my mother tongue, I have had to really put some effort in to learn it properly. It's a difficult language to master, Spanish. No, really!
But I think it's okay for me to say I speak two languages even though one of them is my mother tongue.
And I think it would definitely be considered cheating if I said I speak several languages because I can speak regular Mexican Spanish, and posh Mexican Spanish, and urban Mexican Spanish, and northern Mexican Spanish, etc., that may have different levels of vocabulary and give particular meanings to even the same words, but basically are the same language.
Now, that would be a little bit like cheating, I think.


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## hohodicestu

Hi,

In my opinion, if you are fluent in a language, then you should count it as one of the languages that you speak. It doesn’t matter if it is your mother tongue or not. For instance, my native language is Spanish and I’m fluent in English . Therefore, I obviously speak two languages. This is not considered as cheating at all because I know the two languages very well and I’m able to handle a conversation.


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## GenJen54

I think it's a question of semantics. 

The question "_How many languages do you speak_?" does not ask whether the languages are native to you, or not. As such, your mother tongue and its variants should be included. 

If one were to ask "_How many *foreign* languages do you speak_?" they are asking specifically about your ability to communicate in a language which is not your native language. 

In the actual thread entitled "How many languages do you know?", I think I wrote about my experience with six languages (English, French, Spanish, Italian, German, Pig-Latin). *However, *I _*voted*_ that I only know three of these languages, since that is the number of those languages in which I have a reasonable level of communication. Pig-Latin I really threw in as a joke because not many people know about it. (It's a silly made-up language, and not really a complete "language" at all). 

As long as people are honest about how they represent themselves and are clear in the distinction, I find no problem in including one's native languages in the total number of languages known.


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## übermönch

papillon said:
			
		

> Russian -- native------------           10 points
> Ukrainian -pretty good-------         8 points
> English -- very good----------          9 points
> French ---bit rusty -----------    7 points
> Spanish -- beginning --------     2 points
> 
> My total:                     ----------------------36 linguistic points
> 
> So I know 3.6 languages (mathematically speaking)


 If you're going mathematic you should also consider the relative complexity of the languages.  Then we'd need a measure unit - some simple language like Esperanto. Perfect modern English would be like 2,5 Esperanto, French around 6 Esp., Japanese like 15 Esp. A percent should be drawn from the total complexity of a language if ye already know a similar one. That'd determine how much one really know!


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## papillon

übermönch said:
			
		

> A percent should be drawn from the total complexity of a language if ye already know a similar one. That'd determine how much one really know!


Yeah, of course I thought about it. I even drew up a formula to do this, but I think for most people this would take all the fun out of this discussion. 
However, one useful feature of this system would take care of the highly correlated languages. Simply, it would remove the redundancy from a list that includes Serbian and Montenegrian by taking into account the "correlation factor", i.e. how similar they are. If they share 92% (random number) of the vocabulary, you get 10 pts for perfectly knowing the Montenegrian, but then only an extra 0.8 point for Serbian (or the other way around).


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Following your theory, Natasha, should I say I merely speak none language if only my mother tongue (which doesn't count as a "language")? 

Edit: I finally read the whole thread... Wow! Long and hard job for a knowing-none-language-woman like me!  But I can see now I'm not the only one with the same thoughts about this.


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## moirag

I agree with most of the other contributors. I sometimes even doubt my own proficiency in English, my mother tongue - so at what level would I dare say I "could speak" or "knew" another language? I studied German and French at university, then went to live in Germany for 9 years, in total. A few years later, I came to Spain, with very little Spanish.  I couldn't make myself understood - that, to me , is the essential difference. Define it? I can't - certainly not at this time of night. But I've done dribs and drabs of Swedish and Italian - at the time I was learning it, why not count it? If pressed, I'd say I speak English ( I think I'd always say that, but certainly living abroad, you have to make it explicit, or they'll   overlook it on your cv - I'm NOT joking!), Spanish and reasonable German, with a poor to fair French, and an understanding of the Cyrillic alphabet. I think the question cries out for further explanation. Natasha, you are obviously underselling yourself, here - it's not a question of "cheating"! However, I have seen, in France, speakers of 4 languages... "French,American English, Australian English and British English", in  a newspaper ad. I can only assume that no-one's going to fall for that:


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## Whodunit

Whenever someone asks me how many languages I speak, I usually answer: one. And this is German. My English is not perfect, though I can hold a conversation, read newspapers, understand TV shows, and express myself in English. Nevertheless, I wouldn't say I know it - I only know German.

According to your logic, Natasha, I wouldn't _know_ any language at all, though I _can_ _speak_ English. By the way, panjabigator, why wouldn't you count Hindi _and_ Urdu? They are not the same language, perhaps just close or similar languages. It's almost like as if I had learned Dutch nearly perfectly when I was there for a year: It's similar to German, though they are different languages.

So, don't tell me, panjabigator, that Hindi and Urdu are exactly the same language with a different alphabet only.


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## panjabigator

You are right Whodunit.  They are seperate languages, but I still felt like I was inflating my resume a little.  Perhaps like saying you speak Swiss German and Austrian German.

The grammar is 99.9% identical, but the vocab, as I said earlier, differs in the upper registers.  I am much more familiar with the Hindi version than the Urdu version, but I can manage somewhat with Urdu's.  I'd so much rather say I know Hindustani, but most Indians would look at my somewhat cockeyed.  I think only the linguists would understand the term.


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## venenum

panjabigator said:
			
		

> The grammar is 99.9% identical, but the vocab, as I said earlier, differs in the upper registers. I am much more familiar with the Hindi version than the Urdu version, but I can manage somewhat with Urdu's.


 

A question: do these differences concern everyday's vocabulary - I'd like to know if there are two different words for bread, pants, different kinds of food, family members... or are the differences limited to some fancy expressions. (What would you consider an upper register, actually?)


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## natasha2000

venenum said:
			
		

> A question: do these differences concern everyday's vocabulary - I'd like to know if there are two different words for bread, pants, different kinds of food, family members... or are the differences limited to some fancy expressions. (What would you consider an upper register, actually?)


 
Please, stick to the original question. Differences in Urdu and Hindu are NOT the topic of this thread.

Do you count Croatian when answering to the question how many languages you speak, or not?


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## venenum

Sorry for the off-topic! Wasn't on purpose.
I actually don't count it - it's perfectly normal that you speak one language, which is your mother tongue, and I count only English and German. 
Only when I'm joking will I say that I speak 5 languages (Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, English and German).

And what about passive knowledge of a language? I believe it shoul be emphasized if you have only passive knowledge - you understand it perfectly, but are unable to communicate fluently. It's not actually speaking a language, but it's still worth something, isn't it?


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## natasha2000

venenum said:
			
		

> Sorry for the off-topic! Wasn't on purpose.
> I actually don't count it - it's perfectly normal that you speak one language, which is your mother tongue, and I count only English and German.
> Only when I'm joking will I say that I speak 5 languages (Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, English and German).
> 
> And what about passive knowledge of a language? I believe it shoul be emphasized if you have only passive knowledge - you understand it perfectly, but are unable to communicate fluently. It's not actually speaking a language, but it's still worth something, isn't it?


 
Thank you.... I see that we have the similar views in relation with Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian thing. I, too, say I speak 5 languages only if joking.

As far as passive knowledge, or beginners level, I think one should emphasize this data. For example. I speak Spanish and English. My mother tongue is Serbian. I have a passive knowledge of catalonian (meaning, I understand it pretty well, but I am still unable to make sentences. Some words, yes, but the whole sentence or a small conversation, no). therefore , if there were some poll asking how many languages do you speak, I would say: 2

BTW: I think you and I can add another language to our list: Montenegrian.


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## venenum

Maybe it has something to do with the cultural stuff - since we come from a similar background. I believe that no one in Croatia would count Croatian language in, when answering this question.


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## natasha2000

In Serbia neither. But it seems that in other parts of the world people do not think the same.


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## panjabigator

Is saying that you speak Serbian, Montenegrian, etc just as superflous as saying that one speaks Valencian and Catalan?


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## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Is saying that you speak Serbian, Montenegrian, etc just as superflous as saying that one speaks Valencian and Catalan?


 
Exactly. Or Spanish in Spain and Spanish from Latin America (whatever country), or English from Britain, Australia, America, NZ etc.... It is the same language, but depending on the country, it has a different name. That is why I consider it unfair to count as my mother tongues Croatian and Bosnian. I don't know if Montenegrins already formed their language, since recently voted independence, but even if they didn't, they will, very soon, so it would be as if I spoke 4 languages, but truly I speak only one - Serbian. The same goes for Venenum, only her/his mother tongue would be called Croatian.


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## venenum

Natasha and I respectfully disagree on this - I believe that we are talking about 3 very similar languages, which are nevertheless 3 languages, not 1. Because they are so similar, it is possible for speakers of one to understand the speakers of other, so it is implied, if you speak one, you understand all 3 of them. This is why it's unnecessary counting them all. And, especially for Bosnian, I would never say I speak it, because I don't actually know their specialized vocabulary. (But I'm going off-topic again, so I propose we agree that we disagree.  )


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## natasha2000

venenum said:
			
		

> Natasha and I respectfully disagree on this - I believe that we are talking about 3 very similar languages, which are nevertheless 3 languages, not 1. Because they are so similar, it is possible for speakers of one to understand the speakers of other, so it is implied, if you speak one, you understand all 3 of them. This is why it's unnecessary counting them all. And, especially for Bosnian, I would never say I speak it, because I don't actually know their specialized vocabulary. (But I'm going off-topic again, so I propose we agree that we disagree.  )


 
You're right. I really don't have any wish to repeat so unpleasant discussions we had (I'm not referring to you, since you have just registered to WR, of course) in Slavic forum. So, better stick to the main topic.


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## Maja

I am also NOT counting Serbian.


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## vince

People should only put languages that they can fluently speak in

They shouldn't put languages that they are still learning (unless they specifically state that they're still learning it). Because this just inflates the number.

In addition, if their language is mutually intelligible with another language, they should not put down the second language unless they can also SPEAK that language rather than only passively understanding it. i.e. Russians shouldn't be claiming they speak Ukrainian unless they can SPEAK it (speaking Russian and being understood by a Ukrainian doesn't count). So putting all three languages Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian is okay, as long as you can go to Serbia and convince people you're Serbian, Croatia and convince people you're Croatian, and Bosnia and convince people you're Bosnian.

"Dialects" that are called such due to political factors rather than linguistic ones (such as Sardinian Italian and Cantonese Chinese) should definitely be included as separate languages when asked this question. A person who can speak and understand both Sardinian and Standard (Tuscan-based) Italian, or both Cantonese and Standard (Mandarin-based) Chinese should count both "dialects" as separate languages.


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## natasha2000

Ani85 said:
			
		

> I agree with french4beth...
> 
> Why shouldn't I count my mother tongue as a language?? I speak Spanish and English...both studied at school (because although I learned spanish as a child, all the grammar part I saw it later at school). So, I think that I made an effort to learn the two of them...the same effort I'm doing now with French, Italian and Portuguese...
> 
> And I can't say I speak also French, Italian and Portuguese?? Why is that? For example Italian, maybe I can't talk fluently, but I understand when somebody talks to me or when I'm reading something...why shouldn't I count it as a third language??


 
I think that there is no need for this tone.
i don't say you shouldn't or you mustn´t.
i don't forbid anything to anyone.
I just asked why do some people count their own mother tongue in languages they speak, because I do not do that. I just feel as if I were cheting, saying that i speak more languages than I do, actually.
I just asked for another people's opinions. Not fight.

So please, everyone, if you can just give your opinions, i would appreciate very much.


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## natasha2000

papillon said:
			
		

> I think the mother tongue should absolutely be counted. And hey, if someone grew up speaking 3 languages like Chinese, Hindi and English -- great for them, they just have a linguistical advantage over the rest of us. And of course, not listing the mother tongue doesn't solve the dilemma of the ex-Yugoslav languages. What if a foreigner learned Serbian in school, then travelled to Montenegro. Same issue -- do they list Serbian, or Serbian and Montenegrian as the languages?
> 
> I do agree that counting a language one just started learning is silly, and I think most people didn't include them in the count. From a mathematical perspective, a better poll woulds assign points according to how well you know a language, e.g. with 10 points being on a native-speaker level. So for myself the count would go something like this:
> 
> Russian -- native------------ 10 points
> Ukrainian -pretty good------- 8 points
> English -- very good---------- 9 points
> French ---bit rusty ----------- 7 points
> Spanish -- beginning -------- 2 points
> 
> My total: ----------------------36 linguistic points
> 
> So I know 3.6 languages (mathematically speaking)


 
Excellent idea, Papillon! That would be maybe the most fair (fairest) way of counting languages you know.
My question rose on the basis of one of the polls done in this forum. I cannot find it now, but since you had to put just a number and then to explain in a post, I put 2, and then realized that people counted their mother tongue as well, which, I think nobody in my country (or Balcans, either), would do. So, if you had to put number, you cannot explain all this you put, or explain at least which is your mother tongue.

I do admit that i would have to think a lot if i had two or three mother tongues, but then, I think, are you really equaly proficient in all three languages? Unless those are not two languages you use constantly in your everydays life, like Catalans using Catalan and Spanish, I think (my personal opinion, it is not a statement), is that you cannot possibly be equaly profficient in both or all three languages, if you use only one on a daily basis. If you for example, consider Spanish and Portugese and German your mother tongues, but you live in Germany, you will use much more German than Spanish and Portugese, therefore you will be more profficient in German than in Spanish and Portugese. I am not saying you will have any difficulties in understanding, or expressing yourself in everyday's situations, but when it comes to express your feelings otr some special ideas, or those subtle meanings and wordings, you will be surely more comfortable with German than with Spanish and Portugese, simply because your chip is turned on German. So therefore, in this case, I would choose German as native tongue and Portugese and Spanish as foreign ones. I said, I would do this...


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## natasha2000

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I think it's a question of semantics.
> 
> The question "_How many languages do you speak_?" does not ask whether the languages are native to you, or not. As such, your mother tongue and its variants should be included.
> 
> If one were to ask "_How many *foreign* languages do you speak_?" they are asking specifically about your ability to communicate in a language which is not your native language.


 
Maybe you're right. It's just that I always see this question with the word "foreign" even if it is not written. Maybe there is my problem. Because I think, if you know who I am (I am serbian, so I speak Serbian, you're American, so it is logical that you speak English), you don't need me saying I speak my mother tongue. It is somehow... Logical, and goes without saying.


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## natasha2000

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> Following your theory, Natasha, should I say I merely speak none language if only my mother tongue (which doesn't count as a "language")?
> 
> Edit: I finally read the whole thread... Wow! Long and hard job for a knowing-none-language-woman like me!  But I can see now I'm not the only one with the same thoughts about this.


 
Please, I do not see the reason for being ironic. I exposed my opinion and asked for other people's opinions on this topic, since I realized that many people do not think in the same way as I do.

And as far as I see from your data, your mother tongue is French and since you write in English, yo do speak one language. English. And French is your mother tongue. this is according "MY THEORY".


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## natasha2000

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Whenever someone asks me how many languages I speak, I usually answer: one. And this is German. My English is not perfect, though I can hold a conversation, read newspapers, understand TV shows, and express myself in English. Nevertheless, I wouldn't say I know it - I only know German.
> 
> According to your logic, Natasha, I wouldn't _know_ any language at all, though I _can_ _speak_ English. By the way, panjabigator, why wouldn't you count Hindi _and_ Urdu? They are not the same language, perhaps just close or similar languages. It's almost like as if I had learned Dutch nearly perfectly when I was there for a year: It's similar to German, though they are different languages.
> 
> So, don't tell me, panjabigator, that Hindi and Urdu are exactly the same language with a different alphabet only.


 
Yes, according to MY THEORY you wouldn't speak any language. But from what you said about youer English, I would say tyhat you DO speak one language, English.
I am sorry if so many of you found offended with my reasoning. But this is how I represent myself. I do not count my mother tongue.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Please, I do not see the reason for being ironic.


Wow, wow. I was ironic firstly with me. I found quite funny to see me like knowing none language... because that's quite true! 
There is no such thing as a true or false theory, and I understand and respect yours pretty well.



> You do speak one language. English.


Really?  Thanks. You should say that to my former English teachers!


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## Ed the Editor

I only list English (my native language) and Spanish (in which I am fluent). I have studied and passed doctoral language requirement exams in Russian and Latin, and know some Hebrew and Yiddish. But because I couldn't get along in daily life in a place that spoke any of those languages, I don't count them.


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## karuna

There is no guarantee that one can speak the mother toungue fluently. If you move to another country as a child and due to circumstances never use your native language it will be forgotten partially and sometimes completely. Even adults who have been living in another country for a long time often aquire _foreign _accent, syntax and vocabulary when speaking their native language. I would give credit at least to those who while living abroad are still fluent in their mother tongue.


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## panjabigator

Well if I were an English monolingual, and someone asked me if what languages I speak, I would say none.  It's obvious I speak English, so I thinK I understand what you are saying Natasha...tell me if I am on to something here.


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## M.mac

> Even adults who have been living in another country for a long time often aquire _foreign _accent, syntax and vocabulary when speaking their native language


Or even a short time, karuna. After living in Perú for a year I came home to NZ and for several months people were asking me where I was from! My mother also told me (once I was back) that the English in my emails had been deteriorating, and my spelling - perhaps it will never recover!

A little bit closer to the topic, it seems to me that however we count the number of languages that we speak, we all seem to agree on the need to qualify the level of competency. (And I must say you all do seem to be quite modest, despite the fact that many of you are clearly polyglots!)


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## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Well if I were an English monolingual, and someone asked me if what languages I speak, I would say none. It's obvious I speak English, so I thinK I understand what you are saying Natasha...tell me if I am on to something here.


 
Precisely my point, Panja. If I know you're Spanish, or Russian, it is logical and obvious you would speak Spanish or Russian, so, why cthen count your mother tongue? But the thing are getting complicated when it comes to people who have two or more mother tongues, even though I can relate with two, but it is very hard forme to believe that one can have three mother tongues...


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## geve

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I do admit that i would have to think a lot if i had two or three mother tongues, but then, I think, are you really equaly proficient in all three languages? Unless those are not two languages you use constantly in your everydays life, like Catalans using Catalan and Spanish, I think (my personal opinion, it is not a statement), is that you cannot possibly be equaly profficient in both or all three languages, if you use only one on a daily basis. If you for example, consider Spanish and Portugese and German your mother tongues, but you live in Germany, you will use much more German than Spanish and Portugese, therefore you will be more profficient in German than in Spanish and Portugese. I am not saying you will have any difficulties in understanding, or expressing yourself in everyday's situations, but when it comes to express your feelings otr some special ideas, or those subtle meanings and wordings, you will be surely more comfortable with German than with Spanish and Portugese, simply because your chip is turned on German. So therefore, in this case, I would choose German as native tongue and Portugese and Spanish as foreign ones. I said, I would do this...


But then you would count the languages only if you don't master them? 

I think it is all a matter of context. How, why and by whom are you asked the question? 
If in a job interview, there is probably no need to mention your native language. 
If asked by someone who knows where you're from and where you live, there's probably no need either. 
But on this forum (and consequently, in the thread you're mentioning) we are all sharing on languages - our native languages as well as languages that we learnt later. Obviously we can't know from where everyone is and what language(s) they were raised with. 
I think that in the context of this forum (we all know here how important context is  ), counting one's native language is very appropriate.


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## venenum

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I can relate with two, but it is very hard forme to believe that one can have three mother tongues...


 
Actually, this is quite possible, if not so frequent. Mother tongue, or native language, or first language, according to accepted language acquisition theorie(s), is the language that was chronologically first for an individual to acquire. If an individual, by a chance, grew up in a bilingual surroundings, and started speaking both languages at once, than he is officially bilingual, and has two native languages. 
This example is not to often, but it can happen: lets think of a family of an English and a French living in Germany. Both parents would like the child to speak their language, but the child should also be taught German. So one parent would talk German with the child, the other English, and the French-speaking grandmother, who by a chance lives with them, will speak French. This way, the child will acquire all three languages simoultaneously. I know this is outstretched, but you must agree it is possible.

And another issue: the profficiency in a language determines the dominant language. Your native language can be English, for example, and you have learned French when your parents moved to France, when you were, lets say, ten. But you live in France, and use French more than you use English. This doesn't mean French has become your mother tongue. English will always be your first language, since it was the language you acquired first, but French will become your dominant language, since you use it more and feel more confortable using it. 
With very small children, it is even possible to forget your first language.


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## natasha2000

geve said:
			
		

> But then you would count the languages only if you don't master them?
> 
> I think it is all a matter of context. How, why and by whom are you asked the question?
> If in a job interview, there is probably no need to mention your native language.
> If asked by someone who knows where you're from and where you live, there's probably no need either.
> But on this forum (and consequently, in the thread you're mentioning) we are all sharing on languages - our native languages as well as languages that we learnt later. Obviously we can't know from where everyone is and what language(s) they were raised with.
> I think that in the context of this forum (we all know here how important context is  ), counting one's native language is very appropriate.


 
To te certain point, you're right. But in this thread, I put 2, Spanish and English, and I explained in my post that I voted two (Sp.Engl) and my mother tongue is Serbian. I didn't count my mother tongue when voting in the poll, but the others did. Because I never count my mother tongue. And in job interview, I separate languages I speak and my mother tongue. Mother tongue, for me, is something completely apart. It is not my skill. Skills are something you acquire by learning, like using the computer and computer programs. Therefore, you put the effort in learning certain skill. But your mother tongue is something you learnt like walking or breathing, you learnt it almost instictively and unconsciously. Therefore I would feel uncomfortable saying I speak 3 languages. I speak two. And neither of them is my mother tongue.
This is how I understood this with most of us, who have only one mother tongue. I admit, if I were one of those people whose parents had different mother tongues, or who were children of immigrants, diplomats, or whatever situation in which one would learn more than one language as a mother tongue, I should give a very good thought before I answer the quetion.


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## ireney

Well, I'm sort of in the middle. You see I would never list Greek as a language I know since I take it as a given (and those reading my posts will take it as a given) that I speak Greek.
I usually don't even list French since I make atrocious mistakes nowadays when having a discussion in this language.

On the other hand, if you asked me which languages I can understand I would  say both English and French and  add Italian.

If you asked me which languages I speak _fluently_ I would add Greek to the English language. I know quite a few Greeks born and raised in Greece who most definitely don't speak Greek fluently.


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## panjabigator

Well Natasha, since you live in Spain and speak Spanish, I would assume no one would know that you speak Serbian unless you told them or unless they heard you.  So when people ask you (in Spain) how many languages you speak, what do you say?  I would understand perfectly if a Serbian was asking you in Serbian, but if someone you do not know asks you, what do you say then?

When people ask me, I say Panjabi, Hindi, and Spanish (I can at least communicate alright).  It is obvious to them that I know English, and to some of my friends, Hindi is replaced with Urdu.


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## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Well Natasha, since you live in Spain and speak Spanish, I would assume no one would know that you speak Serbian unless you told them or unless they heard you. So when people ask you (in Spain) how many languages you speak, what do you say? I would understand perfectly if a Serbian was asking you in Serbian, but if someone you do not know asks you, what do you say then?
> 
> When people ask me, I say Panjabi, Hindi, and Spanish (I can at least communicate alright). It is obvious to them that I know English, and to some of my friends, Hindi is replaced with Urdu.


 
Well, to begin with, my name (and in not a name, then my accent, even though I am proud to tell it is not so strong as in other Serbian and Slavic people in general) tells to every and each Spaniard that I am not a Spaniard. Then usually comes the question, "Where are you from?", and in this way, the question about my mother tongue is resolved. some venture to guess, and usually they make a mistake saying I am a Russian, but it is obvious I am not a Spaniard. 

According to you, then all people who live in foreign country can be mistaken for natives of that country? Why do you think that only a Serbian would know which is my mother tongue? Some English speaking people, even though they spend in Spain 30 years, can always be recognized as English native speakers according to their English accent that folows them whatever language they speak.
Therefore, usually it is not so hard to figure it out - and if not, you can always ask.


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## venenum

Yeah, I have one more question: I visited the mentioned thread, and immidiately noticed some people tend to count Latin in. This I find totally strange, because, as all know, Latin is a dead language - therefor not spoken. 
If that's the case, than every person in Croatia, for that matter also in Serbia, Bosnia (probably Slovenia too), Germany or Austria, which has graduated from "gimnazija/Gymnasium" can list that language down... But, nevertheless, noone does, because to say one *knows* Latin (speaking is out of question here), more than a couple of years of studies is necessary. 
What do you think about it?


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## natasha2000

venenum said:
			
		

> Yeah, I have one more question: I visited the mentioned thread, and immidiately noticed some people tend to count Latin in. This I find totally strange, because, as all know, Latin is a dead language - therefor not spoken.
> If that's the case, than every person in Croatia, for that matter also in Serbia, Bosnia (probably Slovenia too), Germany or Austria, which has graduated from "gimnazija/Gimnasium" can list that language down... But, nevertheless, noone does, because to say one *knows* Latin (speaking is out of question here), more than a couple of years of studies is necessary.
> What do you think about it?


 
First, one correction: Gimnazija would be rather College than gimnasium, since gimnasium is a place where you go to do sports, and not to study.

Second, I agree with you. In order to say that you speak one language, you must be able to have a conversation, at least, in that language. And I think it is very hard to do this in Latin. On the other hand, all of us who had Latin in Serbia/Croatia (I don't know for other countries, but I suppose it is pretty similar), we all did grammar, and grammar, and more grammar, and grammar analysis of sentences. We never were encouraged to actually SPEAK in Latin. So I can say I have some notions of Latin, but I surely do not SPEAK it. Although I think it would be owsome if someone could actually SPEAK Latin! (Not impossible, but not probable).


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## panjabigator

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Well, to begin with, my name (and in not a name, then my accent, even though I am proud to tell it is not so strong as in other Serbian and Slavic people in general) tells to every and each Spaniard that I am not a Spaniard. Then usually comes the question, "Where are you from?", and in this way, the question about my mother tongue is resolved. some venture to guess, and usually they make a mistake saying I am a Russian, but it is obvious I am not a Spaniard.
> 
> According to you, then all people who live in foreign country can be mistaken for natives of that country? Why do you think that only a Serbian would know which is my mother tongue? Some English speaking people, even though they spend in Spain 30 years, can always be recognized as English native speakers according to their English accent that folows them whatever language they speak.
> Therefore, usually it is not so hard to figure it out - and if not, you can always ask.


Ah, I meant that if a Serbian asked you (presumably in Serbian), there would be no need for you to say that you speak Serbian. Just like if an English speaker were to ask me what languages I speak. I should have phrased that better. So if a Spaniard asked you how many languages you speak, would you say 1 or 2?


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## ireney

Even if you can't have a conversation in Latin in your everyday life, if you can, if you want, talk in Latin then you should by all means count it. I know for example a site where people will sometimes write messages to each other in Latin (or ancient Greek). Shouldn't they list Latin and/or ancient Greek? What about those priests who use either of these for liturgical purposes?


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## karuna

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> First, one correction: Gimnazija would be rather College than gimnasium, since gimnasium is a place where you go to do sports, and not to study.



No, Gymnasium is not a college but rather a High School, or secondary education in some countries, including Latvia. Of course, Americans don't have such schools and when they hear it they only think about a gym or sports hall. But it is correct to use this word to refer to the school as it is also used officially.


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## venenum

karuna said:
			
		

> No, Gymnasium is not a college but rather a High School, or secondary education in some countries, including Latvia. Of course, Americans don't have such schools and when they hear it they only think about a gym or sports hall. But it is correct to use this word to refer to the school as it is also used officially.


 
(I know it's off-topic, but I simply must)

To both Natasha and Karuna:
I know that equivalent of "gimnazija" is high-school, but in this case, since this reffers to a specific kind of high school, I used the original expression to avoid the confusion that may come out of it (meaning that someone could think that every high school student in Croatia learns Latin  ).
Some of the English staff on my University actually reffer to "gimnazija" as "grammar-school", but I don't know if it's really an equivalent... The dictionaries disagree on this one. Maybe I should post this question on the English forum?


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## natasha2000

venenum said:
			
		

> (I know it's off-topic, but I simply must)
> 
> To both Natasha and Karuna:
> I know that equivalent of "gimnazija" is high-school, but in this case, since this reffers to a specific kind of high school, I used the original expression to avoid the confusion that may come out of it (meaning that someone could think that every high school student in Croatia learns Latin  ).
> Some of the English staff on my University actually reffer to "gimnazija" as "grammar-school", but I don't know if it's really an equivalent... The dictionaries disagree on this one. Maybe I should post this question on the English forum?


 
I always thought that College is the most similar to our Gimnazija. Maybe you should, it would be interesting to know.


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## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Ah, I meant that if a Serbian asked you (presumably in Serbian), there would be no need for you to say that you speak Serbian. Just like if an English speaker were to ask me what languages I speak. I should have phrased that better. So if a Spaniard asked you how many languages you speak, would you say 1 or 2?


 
I would say 2, because no matter who asks me I still speak two foreign languages. It is not tha question in which language you speak with your interlocutor. It is a question of which foreign languages you know speak. 

So, if a Hindu ask me in English, or a French in Spanish, or a Czech in Croatian, I would still speak 2 languages. Even if someone asks me this question in a language I don't speak, I would still speak 2 languages. (I suppose that I would communicate with this person using my hands more than language, but it would still be some kind of communication. )


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## natasha2000

ireney said:
			
		

> Even if you can't have a conversation in Latin in your everyday life, if you can, if you want, talk in Latin then you should by all means count it. I know for example a site where people will sometimes write messages to each other in Latin (or ancient Greek). Shouldn't they list Latin and/or ancient Greek? What about those priests who use either of these for liturgical purposes?


 
I agree absolutely with you. And this person who is able actually to have a conversation in Latin or Ancient Greek would deserve my sincere admiration, because I know how difficult is to achieve this level in those two dead languages...

Priests.... Hmmm... I doubt they are actually capable of having a conversation in ancient Greek, or at least it is not a common thing among them. I suppose that usually they learn by heart what they should sau (sing), and that is about all. Even if there are some of them who can actually speak ancient Greek, they are not for sure local priests, but have a very high rank in the ecclesiastical hierachy....


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## ireney

Oh natasha I wasn't referring to the majority of the priests!  I know most priests _I_'ve heard (during weddings, christenings and whatnot) make me cringe repeatedly because they make one mistake after another. I was just giving an example of a group of people that has in its numbers people who actually know and can speak either ancient Greek or Latin.

Oh, and ancient Greek is not per se a dead language according to some (others count it as a different language than modern Greek and therefore a dead one, others count it as an obsolete form of a still living language)


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## natasha2000

ireney said:
			
		

> Oh natasha I wasn't referring to the majority of the priests! I know most priests _I_'ve heard (during weddings, christenings and whatnot) make me cringe repeatedly because they make one mistake after another. I was just giving an example of a group of people that has in its numbers people who actually know and can speak either ancient Greek or Latin.


Then we agree.



> .......................


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## natasha2000

This is an example of how someone counts not only their mother tongue but also languages he barely understands.

This is what I was referring when saying I don't understand how people can count languages they started to learn or are not fluent in, as well as their mother tongue. I cnhanged a little bit the languages because I want to keep the identity of the forero/a secret. 



> *French* - mother tongue
> *English* - fluent but still make mistakes I shouldn't
> *German* - fluentish, but used to be a lot better.
> *Latin* - long time since I studied it but it helps all the time with the other languages.
> *Spanish* - basic. Taught myself a long time ago. Now I have forgotten the basic grammar which means I am reticent to use the little vocab etc that I know. Is an aim of mine to brush up on the basics because that would give me a lot more confidence.
> *Italian* - learnt for a few terms at school and almost completely forgotten. Can still read the alphabet though!
> *Russian* - some of the linguistic books I needed at uni were only written in Russian so I had to learn the basics sufficiently to read (but then only technical books where a lot of the words are similar to other languages). Have now forgotten a lot, and could not hold a conversation, although I can understand a bit if people speak slowly.
> *Czech* - lived in Prague for a few months and picked up a few phrases and now have forgotten everything. Completely.


 
Now, tell me. This person claims he/she speaks 8 languages. I don't know what this person put in the poll because he/she does not say it. But If I were in their place, I would put 1, maybe 2. Or if you wish, together with a mother tongue, 3. But not 8!

Read the alphabet, some picked up phrases, few terms in school, basic grammar forgotten is called knowing a language?


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## panjabigator

I felt that some people were listing the languages the knew whereas others also listed the languages they had studied or knew at some point in time.  If the forero is putting fluent/fluentish by two languages, I'd say she knows those two.  Definitely not 8 though.


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## jester.

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> This is an example of how someone counts not only their mother tongue but also languages he barely understands.
> 
> This is what I was referring when saying I don't understand how people can count languages they started to learn or are not fluent in, as well as their mother tongue. I cnhanged a little bit the languages because I want to keep the identity of the forero/a secret.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, tell me. This person claims he/she speaks 8 languages. I don't know what this person put in the poll because he/she does not say it. But If I were in their place, I would put 1, maybe 2. Or if you wish, together with a mother tongue, 3. But not 8!
> 
> Read the alphabet, some picked up phrases, few terms in school, basic grammar forgotten is called knowing a language?



You are absolutely right. What that person did was just "toying with languages". I daresay he/she only knows 3 (including his/her mother tongue).

If everybody counted the languages he just "toyed with", many people her in the forum would maybe count a few _dozens_ of languages.

So I think it is, after all, a question of definition. You have to agree on what "knowing a language" means (Maybe this has already been said, I haven't read the whole thread). Then you can get a representative, comparable number.


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## mayale

übermönch said:
			
		

> If you're going mathematic you should also consider the relative complexity of the languages.  Then we'd need a measure unit - some simple language like Esperanto. Perfect modern English would be like 2,5 Esperanto, French around 6 Esp., Japanese like 15 Esp. A percent should be drawn from the total complexity of a language if ye already know a similar one. That'd determine how much one really know!



I was wondering why you put English as a simple language? Do you think that learning English as a second (or third, whatever...) language is easy? Consider  writing/reading 'tough, trough, Worcester, Beaulieu, etc' or the change in meaning with the addition of 'in, out, up, etc' ie. coming in, coming up... Perhaps languages such as French and German (no idea about Japanese) have a tough grammar and plenty of rules to remember but once the learner has digested them it becomes a solid base. Whereas with English there are more exeptions to the rules and the learner is forever struggling with the logic of it all (that is, if they find any).


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## natasha2000

NOTE: My question really didn't include the difficulty of one language, but only the grade of knowledge. As a matter of fact, I, personally, do not divide languages to easy or difficult to learn, just complex and less complex. Every language has its easy and hard parts, but if you have a real desire to learn some language, difficulty is not important. Please go back to the original question.
Thank you.


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