# Pronunciation of R  in certain regions?



## Avensis_32

I read somewhere on the internet that, in words that have an R before a consonant, or in words that end in a R (such as "Nederlands" or "maar"), the R would be pronounced like an American R (like in "rat") in North Holland and that it would be pronounced like a French R in South Holland, near The Hague, and in Flanders. Is that correct, or is there more?


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## bibibiben

Avensis_32 said:


> I read somewhere on the internet that, in words that have an R before a consonant, or in words that end in a R (such as "Nederlands" or "maar"), the R would be pronounced like an American R (like in "rat")


 
Word-final r can be realized as an approximant falling between [ɻ] and [ɰ]. The closer to [ɻ ], the more it’s stigmatized. Better stay away from a true American r.

This approximant pronunciation is favored by those who have uvular realizations of r in other than word-final positions. It’s mainly found in the middle and western part of the Netherlands.

Those who have alveolar realizations of r in other than word-final positions will either produce an approximant-like r in word-final position or an alveolar tap: [ɾ].




Avensis_32 said:


> ...it would be pronounced like a French R in South Holland, near The Hague, and in Flanders. Is that correct, or is there more?


 
Word-final r can also be realized as [ʀ], [ʁ] or even [χ], which could sound like a French r. This type of r is mainly found in the southern part of the Netherlands.

Samples of [ɻ], [ɰ], [ɾ], [ʀ], [ʁ] or [χ]  can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_pulmonic_consonant_chart_with_audio.


The pronuncation of r can be quite complicated in the Netherlands. I earlier wrote in http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=179840&page=3 (last comment):


Quote from _The phonetics of English and Dutch_, Collins & Mees, 1996:

_“In (B) AN /r/ is typically realised as an alveolar tap in all positions in the word, so that /r/ in _rood, parel,_ and _weer_ is pronounced similarly. However Netherlands Dutch is more complex:_
_1. *Pre-vocalic* (initial and medial position), e.g. _rood, rond, reden, merel, kerel_. Typical realisations: either (1) uvular approximant or voiced fricative or (2) alveolar tap._
_2. *Clusters*. Following /p, t, k, x/, uvular [ʁ] may be devoiced with weak friction, giving [ʁ̥] or with some speakers (especially of affected varieties [χ]: prima [ˈpʁ̥imaː], trein [tʁ̥ɛin], kroeg [kʁ̥ux], groot [χʁ̥oːt]. Alveolar tap is not devoiced in such consonant clusters._
_3. *Word-final.* Trills are very uncommon except in emphatic utterances, though alveolar /r/ speakers may have tap [ɾ]. In present-day (NL) ABN and Randstad varieties of Dutch, probably the most frequent allophone is the pre-velar bunched approximant. The back of the tongue is bunched, and the root retracted, giving rise to a type of retroflex resonance. A similar sound is heard as a very common variety of American /r/, termed loosely 'retroflex'. Although it is not a true retroflex articulation (the tip is not curled back or even raised), for convenience we have used the symbol [ɻ].”_

I would strongly advise against indiscriminately using the alveolar trill (rendered as [r] in IPA and commonly called 'rolled r') in the Netherlands, as even native speakers who use this consonantal sound will replace it by either an alveolar tap [ɾ] or a pre-velar approximant* in other than pre-vocalic positions.

More importantly, although [r]** is rather common in the area where luitzen seems to come from (Frisia?), _it’s uncommon in many other parts of the Netherlands_. Which is more, “uvular articulations appear to be gaining ground over alveolar [r]” in the Netherlands.

Uvular articulations in the Netherlands are the following:

Uvular trill: [ʀ]
Uvular tap: [ʀ̆]
Voiced uvular fricative: [ʁ]
Weak voiceless uvular fricative: [ʁ̥] or [χ]
Uvular approximant: [ʁ̞]

So what would be a practical solution for students who wish to get their r’s right? When you live in a part of the Netherlands where alveolar articulations are common, you can stick to alveolar trill [r] or tap [ɾ] (pre-vocalic) and alveolar tap [ɾ] (clusters and word-final). There’s no need to explore all the other alveolar realizations. When you live in a part of the Netherlands where uvular articulations are common, it’s safer to stick to voiced uvular fricative [ʀ] (pre-vocalic, clusters and word-final). You could try your hand on the pre-velar bunched approximant [ɰ̘] in word-final position, but chances are that Anglophones will produce a sound that’s closer to an American r.

If you’re outside the Netherlands and wonder what to do with your r’s, just listen on YouTube to the r’s produced by Dutch newsreaders (names can be found on http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_nieuwslezers, under _Huidige Nederlandse nieuwslezers – televisie_), as they are supposed to speak with a neutral accent. It may come as a surprise to luitzen, but most newsreaders have uvular articulations ...

*Rendered as [ɻ] by Collins & Mees, but [ɰ̘] would probably be a better choice, as the tip of the tongue is not curled back or raised.
**And other alveolar articulations, such as the tap [ɾ], voiced fricative [ɹ̝], voiceless fricative [ɹ̥] and approximant [ɹ]


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## Peterdg

After bibibibens extensive explanation, I think I can say it more concisely. It doesn't matter how you pronounce the "r" in Dutch (certainly if you also consider the Belgian Dutch pronunciations). The realization of the "r" in Dutch is phonetically irrelevant (as opposed to e.g. Spanish).


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## verdas gong

At least in Belgium, Spanish r (either alveolar or rr) is the most common version,
French r is used by many people in Limburg province, by some L1 speakers of Dutch in and around Brussels, and by L2 speakers of Dutch (which are L1 speakers of French).
American R is absent in Belgium, it's a _hollandism _(Holland is informal name for the Netherlands, as used by many Flemish).


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## Peterdg

verdas gong said:


> French r is used by many people in Limburg province, by some L1 speakers of Dutch in and around Brussels, and by L2 speakers of Dutch (which are L1 speakers of French).


French "r" pronunciation in Belgium (as opposed to the Spanish "r") is pretty random. I have 4 children: 3 of them use the Spanish "r" and one the French "r". Both my wife and I use the Spanish "r". My mother uses the French "r". And we are all Dutch L1 speakers and no one of my family is from Limburg. It's just random.

It is true however that French L1 speakers will almost always use the French "r".


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## teruguw

I've recently started studying Dutch, and I'd like to know what's the dialect which has the uvular trill trill /R/. Nearly in all Dutch I listen the r is a flap /ɾ/.​


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## luitzen

I agree that the rolled r is quite common in the region where I'm from, I also suspect that it is geographically the most widespread one in the Netherlands (by number of people it may not be the case). I'm from the north of the Netherlands and I currently live in the east and the only r's I hear is are [r] and [ɾ].

Personally I think that the rolling r in word-initial position and the tap-r in cases 2 and 3 is most standard Dutch.


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## bibibiben

teruguw said:


> I've recently started studying Dutch, and I'd like to know what's the dialect which has the uvular trill trill /R/. Nearly in all Dutch I listen the r is a flap /ɾ/.


 



luitzen said:


> I agree that the rolled r is quite common in the region where I'm from, I also suspect that it is geographically the most widespread one in the Netherlands (by number of people it may not be the case).  [...] Personally I think that the rolling r in word-initial position and the tap-r in cases 2 and 3 is most standard Dutch.


 
[ʀ] and [r]/[ɾ] are on an equal footing in the Netherlands, but [ʀ] (and other uvular realizations) is the one gaining ground. Zeeland, Frisia and rural Overijssel are probably the last true [r]/[ɾ] strongholds.

Quote:

“De *tongpunt-r* staat alleen nog sterk in Vlaanderen, in de Nederlandse provincie Zeeland en in het Noordoosten van Nederland. In de rest van Nederland heeft al lang de *huig-r* het overgenomen van de tongpunt-r.” [http://neon.niederlandistik.fu-berlin.de/nl/nedling/phonology/consonants#rsounds]

While [ʀ] is slowly gaining ground in prevocalic positions, a more rapid change can be seen in the pronunciation of word-final r.  Approximant realizations (anything between [ɻ] and [ɰ]) are spreading like wildfire. Even Frisia, probably the province most clung to alveolar realizations, may give in to approximant realizations in word-final position one day. See http://www.taalvariatie.nl/Gooise_r.pdf.


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## Peterdg

Just to make things clear about terminology: when I say "the Spanish r"", it corresponds to the "tongpunt-r" and the "the French r" corresponds to the "huig-r".

Having said that, I'd like to say that, according to what I see,  the "r" pronunciation is evolving much more quickly in the Netherlands than in Flanders. If I listen to Wim Sonneveld, "Het dorp", that is how I remember it was in the Netherlands when I was young. He's clearly using a "tongpunt-r". Only when the "r" appears at the end of a word, it almost disappears. ("Langs het tuinpad van m'n vade(r)") but when it appears within the word, it is very prominently there ("Ik heb hun vade*r*s nog gekend", "ik zag hun moede*r*s touwtjesp*r*ingen".

Apart from being a marvellous song (both text-wise and music-wise), this is a striking witness of the pronunciation evolution in the Netherlands which, in my opinion, is much more explicit in the Netherlands than in Flanders.


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## luitzen

Interessant, ik kom zelf uit een dorp vandaan dat tegen dat dorp uit die studie aanligt.

Ik kan mij voorstellen dat een Gooise r ook het Nederlands van Friezen binnendringt. Zal dit gepaard gaan met het binnendringen van de Gooise-r in het Fries, of zal het Fries de rollende r weten te behouden?


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