# pronunciation / ˈmɜːrdər / and / ˈmɜːdə(r)/



## cisarro

Hi guys!

According to the Oxford Spanish Dictionary the phonetic transcription of murder could be */ ˈmɜːrdər /* or */ ˈmɜːdə(r)/*. What's the difference between these forms? I'm reading about _vocalic R_ (R-colored vowels) but i'm not sure if it's the correct answer in this case. Perhaps it's about rhotic and non-rhotic dialects?

Thanks a lot!


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## Agró

cisarro said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> According to the Oxford Spanish Dictionary the phonetic transcription of murder could be */ ˈmɜːrdər /* or */ ˈmɜːdə(r)/*. What's the difference between these forms? I'm reading about _vocalic R_ (R-colored vowels) but i'm not sure if it's the correct answer in this case. Perhaps it's about rhotic and non-rhotic dialects?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


Rhotic accents: */ ˈmɜːrdər /
*Non-rhotic accents: */ ˈmɜːdə(r)/*

(r) indica que esa 'r' puede pronunciarse o no en función del sonido siguiente (si es vocálico, se pronuncia; si le sigue pausa, no)

*ˈmɜːdər* (murde*r o*f)
*ˈmɜːdə *(one murde*r*)


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## cisarro

No estaba taaaaan perdido entonces. ¡Gracias!


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## gengo

I like lots of things about British English, but this is one area in which American English seems much more logical to me.  That is, in AmEn, we usually pronounce an R when it appears in spelling, and do not if there is no R.  In BrEn it is often the opposite.

For example, in AmEn we pronounce the R in theater, but in BrEn they do not.  On the other hand, in AmEn there is no R sound in the word banana, but in BrEn they add one at the end.

Very comical to American ears.


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## inib

gengo said:


> I like lots of things about British English, but this is one area in which American English seems much more logical to me. That is, in AmEn, we usually pronounce an R when it appears in spelling, and do not if there is no R.
> In BrEn it is often the opposite.
> For example, in AmEn we pronounce the R in theater, but in BrEn they do not.  On the other hand, in AmEn there is no R sound in the word banana, but in BrEn they add one at the end. *???
> 
> *Very comical to American ears.


*The ticks above refer to my opinion and personal usage. No doubt there are others, equally or more acceptable.
*I won't deny that (especially to foreigners) it may seem more logical to pronounce an "r", seeing as we bother to write it (even though I don't pronounce it myself in the type of cases we are talking about), but I've yet to meet a Brit who pronounces "banana*r*", on its own.
An "R" can slip its way in if "banana" is followed by a vowel (as in "the banana *r*is ripe"), but are you saying that doesn't happen in American English too ?


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## Aviador

inib said:


> […] An "R" can slip its way in if "banana" is followed by a vowel (as in "the banana *r*is ripe"), but are you saying that doesn't happen in American English too ?


I think it does and I hear it all the time. An American very famous for  that is J. F. Kennedy ("Cubar"). There is an interesting piece of audio  that is a very good example of "intrusive r" in an American. Listen, for  example, to "Columbia" at 06:19: *Norman Siegel*.


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## gengo

inib said:


> I've yet to meet a Brit who pronounces "banana*r*", on its own.



I can't be precise about when this extra R is added, but I do know that I (and most other Americans who notice such things) find it funny when it happens.  For example, I remember a BBC radio reporter who always said Nicaragua*r*.



> An "R" can slip its way in if "banana" is followed by a vowel (as in "the banana *r*is ripe"), but are you saying that doesn't happen in American English too ?



Yes, I am, at least in standard American English.  Again, this adding of the extra R is often mocked on TV, etc., because it stands out so much to us Americans.  (I'm sure there are things we say that sound equally funny to you Brits.)


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## gengo

Aviador said:


> I think it does and I hear it all the time. An American very famous for  that is J. F. Kennedy ("Cubar").



JFK did not speak standard American English, and had a very strong dialectical accent that was relatively close to British English (compared to standard American English).  The mayor on the TV show The Simpsons talks like this, because it is very funny to the rest of us Americans.


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## FromPA

gengo said:


> JFK did not speak standard American English, and had a very strong dialectical accent that was relatively close to British English (compared to standard American English).  The mayor on the TV show The Simpsons talks like this, because it is very funny to the rest of us Americans.



JFK spoke with a typical Boston accent, which has a lot of similarities to a British accent.


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## cisarro

inib said:


> *The ticks above refer to my opinion and personal usage. No doubt there are others, equally or more acceptable.
> *I won't deny that (especially to foreigners) it may seem more logical to pronounce an "r", seeing as we bother to write it (even though I don't pronounce it myself in the type of cases we are talking about), but I've yet to meet a Brit who pronounces "banana*r*", on its own.
> An "R" can slip its way in if "banana" is followed by a vowel (as in "the banana *r*is ripe"), but are you saying that doesn't happen in American English too ?



In Chile the last "R" is very short and sometimes is silent, that's why i feel more familiar the british "R". Ok, our spanish accent is not a good reference because we leave out several letters, e.g, the last "S": _nosotros_ (we) sounds like _nosotro_ hahahahaha.


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## inib

gengo said:


> Yes, I am, at least in standard American English. Again, this adding of the extra R is often mocked on TV, etc., because it stands out so much to us Americans. (I'm sure there are things we say that sound equally funny to you Brits.)


Thanks gengo. The following quote from Wiki confirms what you say:


> Rhotic dialects do not feature intrusive R. A rhotic speaker may use alternative strategies such as a hiatus between the two consecutive vowel sounds, or the insertion of a glottal stop to clarify the boundary between the two words. Varieties that feature linking R but not intrusive R (that is, _tuna oil_ is pronounced [ˈtjuːnə (ʔ)ɔɪl]), show a clear phonemic distinction between words with and without /r/ in the syllable coda.[18


I am guilty of using the intrusive "r" and would find it quite difficult to avoid it in fast speech, but I can see that it must sound odd to your ears.
Saludos


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## chileno

FromPA said:


> JFK spoke with a typical Boston accent, which has a lot of similarities to a British accent.



Is that why people from back East say "Santa Monica*r*, California?"


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## FromPA

chileno said:


> Is that why people from back East say "Santa Monica*r*, California?"


A British influence that's very prevalent in New England.

        "I saw*r* a film today, oh boy. The English army had just won the war."


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## grahamcracker

FromPA said:


> A British influence that's very prevalent in New England.
> 
> "I saw*r* a film today, oh boy. The English army had just won the war."


I agree. And don't forget JFK's famous Cuba*r*.

I have a friend from Massachusetts and he tends to add a faint "r" sound in some words.


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## Spug

gengo said:


> JFK did not speak standard American English...




JFK did speak standard American English. He just spoke it with a thick New England accent.


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## grahamcracker

> Originally Posted by gengo
> JFK did not speak standard American English...
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spug
> JFK did speak standard American English. He just spoke it with a thick New England accent.
Click to expand...

There is something called "broadcast standard" which would exclude his distinctive use of adding an "r" sound at the end of words  like Cuba. He did not speak what we regard as broadcast standard.


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## pubman

I hadn't given this subject much thought before but I pronounce 'Tuna' and 'Tuner" exactly the same.


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## inib

pubman said:


> I hadn't given this subject much thought before but I pronounce 'Tuna' and 'Tuner" exactly the same.


Yeah, well think about it Pubman: I'm with you, but we *are* a minority (and logic isn't on our side!)


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## inib

FromPA said:


> A British influence that's very prevalent in New England.
> 
> "I saw*r* a film today, oh boy. The English army had just won the war."


Don't know about USA, but that's brought back a childhood memory. Our _Reverend Mother _had us repeat a Christmas  carol about 40 times because we insisted on singing that the shepherds "sooooRastar" (saw a star).
She was as British as the pupils, but she knew better!!!


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## Spug

grahamcracker said:


> There is something called "broadcast standard" which would exclude his distinctive use of adding an "r" sound at the end of words  like Cuba. He did not speak what we regard as broadcast standard.




Broadcast standard is not standard English, it's a "standard" pronunciation and a sterile, artificial concoction of the television industry. JFK used proper grammar and syntax; he was even eloquent at times. Most of us speak with some kind of accent. Then there are the plastic newscasters who speak "broadcast standard."

Think of the Gettysburg Address. Get ten Americans from across the country to read it aloud. Each will most likely read it with a different accent, but it will still be standard American English (or at least the standard American English that prevailed during Lincoln's lifetime).


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## sound shift

FromPA said:


> A British influence that's very prevalent in New England.


Not guilty! We in the UK don't say Santa Monica*r*, California. We might add an "r" there if the next sound was a vowel (as in "I sawr a film today"), but we don't do so when the next sound is a consonant, as here. When the next sound is a consonant, the addition of an "r" would not help the flow.


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## gengo

Spug said:


> Broadcast standard is not standard English, it's a "standard" pronunciation and a sterile, artificial concoction of the television industry. JFK used proper grammar and syntax; he was even eloquent at times. Most of us speak with some kind of accent. Then there are the plastic newscasters who speak "broadcast standard."
> 
> Think of the Gettysburg Address. Get ten Americans from across the country to read it aloud. Each will most likely read it with a different accent, but it will still be standard American English (or at least the standard American English that prevailed during Lincoln's lifetime).



I disagree.  There is definitely an unofficial standard to American pronunciation, and it is often loosely described as the accent used by top-notch TV news broadcasters (although that level has been dropping in recent years).

I love accents, especially a heavy southern accent spoken by an educated person, so I'm not deprecating any of these accents.  Kennedy was obviously a fluent native speaker of American English, but he spoke with a heavy regional accent, so heavy that it is mocked on TV shows now.  I like listening to people speak in his accent, but theirs is not standard speech (nor is his accent "typical Boston").

Aside from regional accents, there are also individual accents resulting from the language spoken in a person's home and an individual's own personality.  I myself have a few words that I pronounce outside of the standard American pronunciation, but those don't constitute a regional accent.  And everybody is probably like me in this respect.  However, that doesn't mean that we can't refer in general terms to a standard American accent, while at the same time embracing the wonderful variety of the language used in this large country.  (Still, the extremes of variety in American English don't match the differences between the extremes in British English, such as between the far north and far south of England, not to mention Scottish English, Irish English, and Welsh English.)


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## pubman

Gengo, you are correct about the extremes in British English. I was brought up in the North but have spent the last 20 odd years in the South and still some people ask me to repeat words! Southerners find Scouse, Galasweigan and Geordie accents unintelligible if spoken quickly. My question is why do you think the extremes are greater when the whole country would fit into Texas.


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## Spug

Gengo, please reread my post. I acknowledged that there exists what some refer to as a "standard" American _pronunciation _(but I don't accept it as "standard"—this is a big, diverse country). I am referring to the _language_, not the pronunciation. At any point in time, there is an overall construct of grammar, syntax, and usage in American English that can be considered standard. One's pronunciation—within generally acceptable limits—is another matter. I refer back to the example of the Gettysburg Address. Having grown up in the South, and having been raised by Southern parents, I speak with a Southern accent. But I defy anybody to tell me that I do not speak standard American English.


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## grahamcracker

Spug said:


> Broadcast standard is not standard English, it's a "standard" pronunciation and a sterile, artificial concoction of the television industry. JFK used proper grammar and syntax; he was even eloquent at times. Most of us speak with some kind of accent. Then there are the plastic newscasters who speak "broadcast standard."


Oh, I disagree entirely. In one of my books, The Story of English, it is discussed. There are parts of the American mid-west where the normal spoken English is pretty close to broadcast standard. It is not artificial since it is spoken in some parts of the United States.


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## duvija

grahamcracker said:


> Oh, I disagree entirely.* In one of my books*, The Story of English, it is discussed. There are parts of the American mid-west where the normal spoken English is pretty close to broadcast standard. It is not artificial since it is spoken in some parts of the United States.



Really? you wrote that? 
Let's say, East Coast Am Eng is pretty full of 'r' (the idea.r-is...)


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## gengo

pubman said:


> Gengo, you are correct about the extremes in British English. I was brought up in the North but have spent the last 20 odd years in the South and still some people ask me to repeat words! Southerners find Scouse, Galasweigan and Geordie accents unintelligible if spoken quickly. My question is why do you think the extremes are greater when the whole country would fit into Texas.



My guess would be the respective ages of the two countries.  Dialects had much longer to evolve and diverge in England than they have had in the US.  And of course today the evolution is in the opposite direction, towards homogenization, in both countries.


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## gengo

duvija said:


> Really? you wrote that?



According to Wikipedia, it was written by three people, and was also made into a nine-part TV series.  I've always meant to read the book, and now I'll make it a higher priority.


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