# На голову (pronunciation)



## Drink

_*Mod.: split from Acute Accent In Russian*_

It's not about the number of syllables, it's just about what type of word it is and whether a phrase has been lexicalized and become a sibgle stress unit. The latter is the case for дай бог, because in ordinary circumstances both дай and бог would be stressed (not necessarily equally, however, because of sentence-level stress rules). Meanwhile you have multisyllable prepositions that have no stress, for example передо мн*о*ю (I used мною instead of мной to demonstrate that even the following word need not have only one syllable), not to mention cases where a preposition steals the stress from a multisyllable noun, for example н*а* голову.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> not to mention cases where a preposition steals the stress from a multisyllable noun, for example н*а* голову.


Not sure if that is a correct example. We'd normally say "на го́лову".


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## Xavier61

Rosett said:


> Not sure if that is a correct example. We'd normally say "на го́лову".


What about "з*а* руку"?


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> Not sure if that is a correct example. We'd normally say "на го́лову".



Who's "we"? Many people say "на́ голову".


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> Who's "we"? Many people say "на́ голову".


We's us. Your people might mean "на́голову", an adverb.
"На го́лову врага посыпались бомбы. Враг разбит на́голову".


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## Rosett

Xavier61 said:


> What about "з*а* руку"?


"За́ руку" is possible if used as adverb:
"Маму за́ руку веду,
Как большой сейчас!
Это в школу я иду,
В самый первый раз!"

However, it may easily shift back if "руку" is noun:
"Ехал Грека через реку.
Видит Грека в реке рак.
Сунул в реку руку Грека.
Рак за ру́ку Греку - цап,"
and that's how we learn it.

In this case the difference is quite subtle.


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> We's us. Your people might mean "на́голову", an adverb.
> "На го́лову врага посыпались бомбы. Враг разбит на́голову".



This phenomenon never happens (or more rarely at least) when followed by a noun in the genitive (as far as I know), so that's not a strong counterexample. I don't doubt that many people (including me) frequently say "на го́лову", but the proper way is "на́ голову". Here are some references.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> This phenomenon never happens (or more rarely at least) when followed by a noun in the genitive (as far as I know), so that's not a strong counterexample. I don't doubt that many people (including me) frequently say "на го́лову", but the proper way is "на́ голову". Here are some references.


The best way is to check with poets:
"17 janv. 2013 - Сплету венок на го́лову. Лишь для тебя одной. Тебе к лицу и здорово. Пойдет подарок мой!..."
"Вдруг, как снег на го́лову, гул 
Толпы, как залп, стегнул 
Трехверстовой гранит 
И откатился с плит."
*Владимир Маяковский - стихи*
"Я вышел на площадь,
выжженный квартал
надел на го́лову, как рыжий парик.
Людям страшно - у меня изо рта
шевелит ногами непрожеванный крик."


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## Q-cumber

Drink said:


> Who's "we"? Many people say "на́ голову".


The adverb "нАголову" (written jointly) vs the noun "на гОлову". 
Наши войска разбили врага нАголову. 
Он на гОлову выше брата.


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## Drink

Did you look at the four references? See also this one about the adverb наголову. Now I've given you five references. Try to find me a single one that says "н*а* голову" is wrong.

Side note: Poetry might be a biased source because "н*а* голову" doesn't fit in any meter.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> Side note: Poetry might be a biased source because "н*а* голову" doesn't fit in any meter.


We learn prosody through poetry in childhood. This is the most reliable source of accents.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> Did you look at the four references? See also this one about the adverb наголову. Now I've given you five references. Try to find me a single one that says "н*а* голову" is wrong.


I checked your references. Some of them are not good. I understand that you read gramota.ru and lingvoforums where semiliterate folks expose their fantasies; however, there are better sources.

One of your links (academic) fetched "_Надеть на́ голову (на го́лову) шапку," _with no examples or explanations. But you can figure out that the first one may be adverb, the second one - noun; both are out of context, hence you can turn them around the way you like.


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## Xavier61

Rosett said:


> "За́ руку" is possible if used as adverb:
> "Маму за́ руку веду,
> Как большой сейчас!
> Это в школу я иду,
> В самый первый раз!"
> 
> However, it may easily shift back if "руку" is noun:
> "Ехал Грека через реку.
> Видит Грека в реке рак.
> Сунул в реку руку Грека.
> Рак за ру́ку Греку - цап,"
> and that's how we learn it.
> 
> In this case the difference is quite subtle.


Thank you. In songs, the form (держи/возьми/ ... ) зá руку seems very common. I also hear с нóг нá голову, but maybe it is a mistake?


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## Rosett

Xavier61 said:


> I also hear с нóг нá голову, but maybe it is a mistake?


Please show your examples. Ideally, they should be in context.
You may also check other samples of poetry:
"Странные в голову лезут вещи,
Пьяному, но так каждый вечер,
И буквально на минут пять
Встает все с но́г на го́лову
Опять."
"А сегодня всё с но́г на го́лову перевёрнуто, Недоверием чёрным глаза перегружены, Вчера клацнул в собаку затворами — Завтра – соседа убил по улице!?"
"Он ляжет и сравняется. Земли -
С но́г на го́лову брошенной - в избытке.
Орали птицы. Не было семьи.
Была жена-девчонка. И попытка..."


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## Vovan

Как снег на́ голову; с ног на́ голову - the way I put the stress.
Checking it out with my  paper copy of Орфоэпический словарь Института русского языка АН СССР (1988) proves me right.


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> Как снег на́ голову; с ног на́ голову - the way I put the stress.
> Checking it out with my  paper copy of Орфоэпический словарь Института русского языка АН СССР (1988) proves me right.


Apparently, poets rarely bother to consult the above mentioned dictionary for some inexplicable reasons.


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## Maroseika

I found the following explanation in the book of the authoritative accentolog Maya Zarva "Слово в эфире":
Accent falls on the preposition in the stable sayings or when the meaning is adverbial: как снег на́ голову (unexpectedly), на́ голову выше (a cut above), схватиться за́ голову (fig. be terrified).
But when the noun is used as an object of the action, accent falls on the noun: схватил врага за го́лову и потянул; за его го́лову назначено вознаграждение; ему на го́лову села бабочка; проклятье падет тебе на го́лову.

However M. Zarva usually gives the stricktest norm. In the dictionaries of Ozhegov and Kuznetsov variants with the noun in the meaning of the object are equal: надеть на́ голову and на го́лову; держаться за́ голову and за го́лову.


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## Xavier61

Maroseika said:


> I found the following explanation in the book of the authoritative accentolog Maya Zarva "Слово в эфире":
> Accent falls on the preposition in the stable sayings or when the meaning is adverbial: как снег на́ голову (unexpectedly), на́ голову выше (a cut above), схватиться за́ голову (fig. be terrified).
> But when the noun is used as an object of the action, accent falls on the noun: схватил врага за го́лову и потянул; за его го́лову назначено вознаграждение; ему на го́лову села бабочка; проклятье падет тебе на го́лову.
> 
> However M. Zarva usually gives the stricktest norm. In the dictionaries of Ozhegov and Kuznetsov variants with the noun in the meaning of the object are equal: надеть на́ голову and на го́лову; держаться за́ голову and за го́лову.


 May I ask why как снег на́ голову Is adverbial and проклятье падет тебе на го́лову Is not? Какая разница?


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## Q-cumber

Xavier61 said:


> May I ask why как снег на́ голову Is adverbial and проклятье падет тебе на го́лову Is not? Какая разница?


"Как снег нА голову" is an idiomatic expression with meaning "внезапно", "неожиданно" (suddenly, unexpectedly). Lit.: to fall like (a pile of) snow on the head.. 

It used in phrases as a complex adverb. 

И тут как снег на голову свалились гости. (И тут неожиданно приехали гости).


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## Xavier61

Rosett said:


> Please show your examples. Ideally, they should be in context.
> You may also check other samples of poetry:
> "Странные в голову лезут вещи,
> Пьяному, но так каждый вечер,
> И буквально на минут пять
> Встает все с но́г на го́лову
> Опять."
> "А сегодня всё с но́г на го́лову перевёрнуто, Недоверием чёрным глаза перегружены, Вчера клацнул в собаку затворами — Завтра – соседа убил по улице!?"
> "Он ляжет и сравняется. Земли -
> С но́г на го́лову брошенной - в избытке.
> Орали птицы. Не было семьи.
> Была жена-девчонка. И попытка..."


Написал Пушков в своём Twitter.

Порошенко в Мюнхене поставил с ног на голову Минские согл: требует начать их выполнение с посл.пунктов! Все выступление - абсурд и демагогия

— Алексей Пушков (@Alexey_Pushkov) 13 февраля 2016


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## Xavier61

Q-cumber said:


> "Как снег на голову" is an idiomatic expression with meaning "внезапно", "неожиданно" (suddenly, unexpectedly).


"Idiomatic" means "adverbial" in Russian linguistics?


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## Xavier61

Q-cumber said:


> "Как снег нА голову" is an idiomatic expression with meaning "внезапно", "неожиданно" (suddenly, unexpectedly). Lit.: to fall like (a pile of) snow on the head..
> 
> И тут на снег на голову свалились гости. (И тут неожиданно приехали гости).


Yes right, I also think it is idiomatic. But проклятье падет тебе на го́лову Is not idiomatic?


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## Q-cumber

Xavier61 said:


> "Idiomatic" means "adverbial" in Russian linguistics?


Please review my updated message above.


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## Q-cumber

Xavier61 said:


> Yes right, I also think it is idiomatic. But проклятье падет тебе на го́лову Is not idiomatic?


It is idiomatic, but it can't be replaced with an adverb.


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## Maroseika

Xavier61 said:


> May I ask why как снег на́ голову Is adverbial and проклятье падет тебе на го́лову Is not? Какая разница?


Гости свалились (как?) неожиданно.
Гости свалились (как?) как снег на голову. (also note there is no comma before как).
Проклятье падет тебе (на что?) на голову.


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## Xavier61

Q-cumber said:


> It is idiomatic, but it can't be replaced with an adverb.


Understood.
А на выражении "с нóг нá голову" which adverb can we substitute for "нá голову"?


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## Maroseika

Xavier61 said:


> А на выражение "с нóг нá голову" which adverb can we substitute for "нá голову"?


Перевернуть с ног на голову - перевернуть наоборот.
However gar not always we can substitute idiomatic expression with an adverb, but adverbial expression always behaves as an adverb (answering to the question как?):
Ты все перевернул (как?) с ног на голову.


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## Q-cumber

Xavier61 said:


> Understood.
> А на выражении "с нóг нá голову" which adverb can we substitute for "нá голову"?


Please don't try to understand an idiomatic expression literally. You can't split it into parts and treat it like a usual phrase.

If we get back to the first idiom ( "как снег на голову") there is a similar adverbial expression in English - 'out of the blue' (unexpectedly, suddenly).

Compare:

Гости свалились как снег на голову.  (Meaning: гости приехали (как?) совершенно неожиданно. )
The guests arrived completely out of the blue.  (Meaning: The guests arrived (how? unexpectedly)

Both expressions answer the adverb question 'how? Как?' and modify the associated verbs (свалились / arrived).

The same is true for the second sample expression:

Ты перевернул мои слова (как?) *с ног на голову*. (вверх ногами/ кверху ногами / вверх тормашками / шиворот-навыворот).
You turned my words (how?) upside down.

So, we call these expressions adverbial because they answer the adverb questions and modify verbs (adjectives / another adverbs) in the same way as adverbs do. It is important to notice that these expressions are mostly fixed and should be treated like single-word adjectives (units) rather than expressions.
I hope this helps.


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## Xavier61

Q-cumber said:


> Please don't try to understand an idiomatic expression literally. You can't split it into parts and treat it like a usual phrase.
> 
> If we get back to the first idiom ( "как снег на голову") there is a similar adverbial expression in English - 'out of the blue' (unexpectedly, suddenly).
> 
> Compare:
> 
> Гости свалились как снег на голову.  (Meaning: гости приехали (как?) совершенно неожиданно. )
> The guests arrived completely out of the blue.  (Meaning: The guests arrived (how? unexpectedly)
> 
> Both expressions answer the adverb question 'how? Как?' and modify the associated verbs (свалились / arrived).
> 
> The same is true for the second sample expression:
> 
> Ты перевернул мои слова (как?) *с ног на голову*. (вверх ногами/ кверху ногами / вверх тормашками / шиворот-навыворот).
> You turned my words (how?) upside down.
> 
> So, we call these expressions adverbial because they answer the adverb questions and modify verbs (adjectives / another adverbs) in the same way as adverbs do. It is important to notice that these expressions are mostly fixed and should be treated like single-word adjectives (units) rather than expressions.
> I hope this helps.


Yes thank you, it helps a lot. They are fixed expressions. Adverbs that answer how-questions are adverbs of manner, but "adverbs" also answer other questions, there are many clases of adverbs: where-questions are answered by adverbs of place, when-questions by adverbs of time, ....  проклятье падет тебе на го́лову . Куда? на гóлову. That's also an adverb. Of place.
 I also think that it is better to understand them as fixed expressions. It seems mainly used with the prepositions нá and зá, maybe also with some others?


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## Maroseika

Actually падет (куда?) на голову.
However this is the same situation as in пойти (куда?) в магазин.
So I'd say this is mostly the adverbs of manner rather than any others. The latter can be easily changed to the prepositional question:
падет (куда = на что) на голову
пойти (куда = во что) в магазин.
лежать (где = на чем) на столе
etc.


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