# ...や...方々...



## theseus_

context:

今日は彼氏のお父さんの運転で、彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々に結婚の挨拶に回っていました。

Does “*や*” meaning “and” in here？ Can I use “と”  instead of “*や*”　in this sentence？


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## SoLaTiDoberman

theseus_ said:


> Does “*や*” mean “and” in here？


Yes, it does.


theseus_ said:


> Can I use “と”  instead of “*や*”　in this sentence？


Yes, you can.


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## gengo

theseus_ said:


> 今日は彼氏のお父さんの運転で、彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々に結婚の挨拶に回っていました。
> 
> Does “*や*” meaning “and” in here？ Can I use “と”  instead of “*や*”　in this sentence？



It does mean "and," but it also conveys the nuance that it is separating examples, rather than exclusive entities.  That is, with と we might think that "彼の親戚" and "お世話になった方々" are the only two possible things here, whereas や allows for other possibilities as well.  This distinction isn't black and white, but in very general terms, と is more exclusive than や (which can also sometimes translate to "or").


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I couldn't agree with that.
The explanation in #3 may be for や　～ などに.
"彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々*など*に."
Without など, "彼の親戚" and "お世話になった方々" are the only two possible things here, and logically it's identical to "and."
Furthermore, お世話になった方々 can mean quite many people.


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## gengo

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I couldn't agree with that.
> The explanation in #3 may be for や　～ などに.
> "彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々*など*に."
> Without など, "彼の親戚" and "お世話になった方々" are the only two possible things here, and logically it's identical to "and."
> Furthermore, お世話になった方々 can mean quite many people.



Well, you're the native speaker, so you have me at a disadvantage, but I still think I'm right.  And there are certainly many other possibilities:  同僚、友達、学友、等々.

But for the purposes of translation into English, "and" is certainly the correct word.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

@#5:
Ａ．お世話になっている人々＝（上司、同僚、友達、学友、等々）
Ｂ．お世話になっている人々＝（お世話になっている上司、お世話になっている同僚、お世話になっている友達、お世話になっている学友, その他お世話になっている人々）
Ｃ．お世話になっている人々＝（お世話になっている上司、同僚、部下、お世話になっている友達、お世話になっている学友、実際は全くお世話になってはいない上司、同僚、部下、実際はお世話になっていなくて逆に面倒をみてあげている友達、その他お世話にはなっていなくて実際は迷惑しているけど社会的に付き合いのある人々）

If you look at A, you will notice that people you mentioned before are already included お世話になっている人々.
As a native English speaker or a Western person, you may think only B is the logically correct equation.
However, in Japan, C is also the correct equation.
You would probably have known the reason, right?　『社交辞令的表現』 
Such as "お近くに御寄りの節は是非我が家にお立ち寄りください" doesn't mean it at all. If you go to their house, they might be annoyed by you.

彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々に
=彼の親戚とその他の方々に

This is a quite technical explanation though.
Practically, や＝and, when we translate it into English.
However, I think the nuance or connotation you mentioned about や is an important point.
Thank you.


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## theseus_

gengo said:


> It does mean "and," but it also conveys the nuance that it is separating examples, rather than exclusive entities.  That is, with と we might think that "彼の親戚" and "お世話になった方々" are the only two possible things here, whereas や allows for other possibilities as well.  This distinction isn't black and white, but in very general terms, と is more exclusive than や (which can also sometimes translate to "or").


Thank you gengo. What you said that’s just what I want to ask.
Actually,I want to know the  nuance between "と" and "や".And I found some explanations like you said.
But I am not certain it in the context.Beacuse, there is a condition when the author writed the sentence：
“今日は彼の両親に挨拶に行きます。遠いところに住んでいるので飛行機での移動です。”
So，I think Maybe there is no one  besides "彼の親戚" and "お世話になった方々".




SoLaTiDoberman said:


> @#5:
> Ａ．お世話になっている人々＝（上司、同僚、友達、学友、等々）
> Ｂ．お世話になっている人々＝（お世話になっている上司、お世話になっている同僚、お世話になっている友達、お世話になっている学友, その他お世話になっている人々）
> Ｃ．お世話になっている人々＝（お世話になっている上司、同僚、部下、お世話になっている友達、お世話になっている学友、実際は全くお世話になってはいない上司、同僚、部下、実際はお世話になっていなくて逆に面倒をみてあげている友達、その他お世話にはなっていなくて実際は迷惑しているけど社会的に付き合いのある人々）
> 
> If you look at A, you will notice that people you mentioned before are already included お世話になっている人々.
> As a native English speaker or a Western person, you may think only B is the logically correct equation.
> However, in Japan, C is also the correct equation.
> You would probably have known the reason, right?　『社交辞令的表現』
> Such as "お近くに御寄りの節は是非我が家にお立ち寄りください" doesn't mean it at all. If you go to their house, they might be annoyed by you.
> 
> 彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々に
> =彼の親戚とその他の方々に
> 
> This is a quite technical explanation though.
> Practically, や＝and, when we translate it into English.
> However, I think the nuance or connotation you mentioned about や is an important point.
> Thank you.


Thank you for explaning so exactly.
I think I should read it several times to understand it.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Okay, in short, や= "and also~."

彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々
=彼の親戚* and also *お世話になった方々

Clear?


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## SoLaTiDoberman

theseus_ said:


> Does “*や*” meaning “and” in here？


No. It means "and also" in here.


theseus_ said:


> Can I use “と”  instead of “*や*”　in this sentence？


No. You should say "～と～にも" in this sentence.
彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々に
=彼の親戚*と*お世話になった方々*にも

(The corrected version for #2)*


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## theseus_

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Okay, in short, や= "and also~."
> 
> 彼の親戚*や*お世話になった方々
> =彼の親戚* and also *お世話になった方々
> 
> Clear?


Thank you，How kind you are！
Actually,I tryed to convey that The details of #6 is very very helpful for me,I like to carefully think about it.


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## Flaminius

For all intents and purposes of the thread opening text, や and と are near equals.  Having said that,


gengo said:


> It does mean "and," but it also conveys the nuance that it is separating examples, rather than exclusive entities.


*gengo*'s observation is spot on, although it needs reviewing other examples to make the difference salient.

1a. 父とステーキを食べた。
1b. 父やステーキを食べた。 [Farewell, daddy!]
2a. 山田さんと山田先生は違う。
2b. 山田さんや山田先生は違う。[They are different from others.]


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## theseus_

Flaminius said:


> 1a. 父とステーキを食べた。
> 1b. 父やステーキを食べた。 [Farewell, daddy!]
> 2a. 山田さんと山田先生は違う。
> 2b. 山田さんや山田先生は違う。[They are different from others.]



1a. I and my dad eat steak together.
1b. I  eat my dad and steak.   (???)
2a. Yamada san is different from Yamada sensei.
2b.   ...
Is it right?


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## gengo

theseus_ said:


> 2b.   ...
> Is it right?



To convey the nuance indicated by Flaminius, we could say "Yamada-san is different, and so is Yamada-sensei."


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