# Persian, Urdu, Arabic, Turkish: محمد Mehmed-Memet-Mehmat etc



## Canbek

If I'm not wrong ,the word   Muhammed's root  is Hamd...Very well known Arabic-Semitic word...Someone told me that "Mehmed or Mehmet or Memet"  is also originated  from the same root...As well as Mahmud...It's a bit confusing to me...

My question , please :   "Meh"  means " great(er), old(er) in Pahlawi...Similar in Farsi and Kurmanci Kurdish( probably in many Irani languages..)  Would Mehmed-Mehmet's  " Meh" and a word or who knows a " suffix"  "Met  or Mat" form a Persian or Pastu or Tacik' etc word ?

Same principal applies to Mahmud...." Mah"  means  Moon in all these  Ariani languages..."Mah" and say "Mud" or similar to this word , could form a name- word  in I.E ?


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## Dib

That these words are most likely indeed Arabic is shown by their Perso-Arabic spellings, which contain the Arabic ḥ (ح) - pharyngeal fricative, father than h (ه) - glottal fricative, as is usually written in Persian/Iranian languages. It still admits a loophole in the shape of folk etymology, though. So, an additional line of investigation would be to check for their existence in Pre-Islamic Iranian world. I have no personal knowledge about that, but I'd guess that they might have been first attested in Arabia, giving more weight to the Arabic etymology.


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## Treaty

Mehmet, Memet, Mamad (in Persian) are corrupted (or short) forms of the original Arabic _muḥammad _(= "verily praised") that is the passive participle of form II of the root _ḥ-m-d _(= "to praise"). It is not correct to say "they are from the same root" as it falsely suggests that they have developed independently. _Maḥmūd_ is an object noun from the same root (_ḥ-m-d_) but in a simple form. It means "praised". There are many cognates for them in other Semitic languages.

The sounds and letters which we use and understand are limited to a few dozens while we make thousands of words with them. So you can often find a thing in one language that looks like something in another language. Yes, you can find something in an Iranian language that can construct Mahmud or Mohammad (e.g., māh-madho ~ "moon-drug" in Avestan) but it is just coincidence.


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## Jervoltage

Isn't _Muḥammad _derived from the second form of _hamada_?


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## Qureshpor

I would like to support Treaty's view on the word. The word (from Arabic verb pattern II) is muHammad. Mehmet etc, as far as I know, is a Turkish form of Muhammad probably linked to the Turkish sound system. It has nothing to do with Persian mih or mah/maah.


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## Faylasoof

Jervoltage said:


> Isn't _Muḥammad _derived from the second form of _hamada_?


 Exactly! Form II, i.e. _*fa33ala* -> yufa33ilu -> mufa33il _(active participle)and_ *mufa33al* _(passive participle). So here: *Hammada* _-> yuHammidu --> *muHammad*,_ as the _passive particle _which of course means _praised_.


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## Qureshpor

Jervoltage said:


> Isn't _Muḥammad _derived from the second form of _hamada_?


We seem to have posted simultaneously! One minor correction. It is "Ham*i*da".


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## Canbek

I was  told that  Mehmed means " praised" in Arabi...Muhammed is overly praised....I would like get some Sanskrit words below, which I beleive might be considered:

  Monier -Williams dictionary




-  Mah(1)  :  
 inf. _mahe_, and _maháye_, q.v.) to elate, gladden, exalt, arouse, excite cf. RV. cf. Br. cf. Kauś. cf. ChUp. cf. MBh • to magnify, esteem highly, honour, revere cf. MBh. cf. Kāv. &c • (Ā.) to rejoice, delight in (instr. or acc.) cf. RV. iii, 52, 6 ; vi, 15, 2 • to give, bestow cf. ib. i, 94, 6 ; 117, 17 ; v, 27, 1 &c. [Cf. Gk. ? ; [794, 1] Lat. _magnus_, _mactus_ ; Old Germ. _michel_ ; Eng. _mickle_, _much_.]- Mah (2) :  

_máh_ mf(_ī́_ or = m.)n. great, strong, powerful mighty, abundant RV. VS. • (with _pitṛ_ or _mātṛ_) old, aged RV. i, 71, 5 ; v, 41, 15 &c • (_ī́_), f. _mahī́_, p. 803, col. 2-  Maha : 

_mahá_ mfn. great, mighty, strong, abundant RV. • m. (cf. _makha_, _magha_) a feast, festival MBh. • the festival of spring Śiś. Hariv. Var. [Page 794, Column 2] • a partic. Ekâha ŚāṅkhŚr. • a sacrifice L. • a buffalo L. • light, lustre, brilliance L. • (_ā_), f. a cow L. • Ichnocarpus Frutescens L. • n. pl. great deeds RV.-  Mahatman :

_○"ṣtman_ (_○hât○_), mfn. 'high-souled', magnanimous, having a great or noble nature, high-minded, noble Mn. MBh. R. &c • highly gifted, exceedingly wise Pañcat. • eminent, mighty, powerful, distinguished MBh. R. Pañcat. Suśr. • m. the Supreme Spirit, great soul of the universe MaitrUp. Mn. • the great principle i.e. Intellect BhP. • (scil. _gaṇa_), N. of a class of deceased ancestors MārkP. • of a son of Dhī-mat VP. • _○ma-vat_ mfn. 'high-souled', highly gifted, very wise Kām. • _○tmya_ mfn. magnanimous MW. • n. wṛ. for _māhātmya_ (q.v.) PadmaP. Daś.

-Mahamata  :  


_○mata_ mfn. highly esteemed or honoured MW.

 -  Mahāmati _○mati_ mfn. great-minded, having a great understanding, clever MBh. R. &c • m. the planet Jupiter L. • N. of a king of the Yakshas Buddh. • of a Bodhi-sattva ib. • of a son of Su-mati Kathās. • f. N. of a woman Cat. • (_ī_), f. a partic. lunar day personified as a daughter of Aṅgiras MBh. 
- Mahāmada _○mada_ m. great pride or intoxication W. • excessive or violent rut (of an elephant) MārkP. • fever Gal. • an elephant in strong rut L.



 -mahi (1)_máhi_ mfn. (only nom. acc. sg. n.) = _mahát_, great RV. AV. VS. • ind. greatly, very, exceedingly, much ib. ŚāṅkhŚr. • m. n. greatness BhP. • m. = _mahat_, intellect ib. • f. = 1. _mahī́_ the earth L. (in comp. not always separable from 1. _mahín_, q.v.)


- mahimat _○mat_ mfn. much, abundant MBh. • m. marriage-fire L.

-mahimati _○mati_ mfn. (only in voc. _mahe-mate_) high-minded (said of Indra) RV.-Mid OR Med  = Mith  = to understand  OR  to kill














-


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> I was  told that  Mehmed means " praised" in Arabi...Muhammed is overly praised....I would like get some Sanskrit words below, which I beleive might be considered:
> 
> .....
> -


 The derivation of _*muHammad*_ is as I explained above and means _praised_. 

*mehmed* / _*mehmet*_ etc. are Turkish / Turkic pronunciations of the same and also mean exactly the same.

*Highly / overly praised* is also related to the same root but that is _*aHmad *_(cf, _*af3al *_from_* fa3ala *_) the root here being   _*H-m-d*_ or in the Arabic script: ح - م - د. 

The prefix _*mu-*_ in _*muHammad*_ is how participles are formed in Arabic (shown above) and not related to Sanskrit _*mah / maha*_ = great / big etc.


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## Dib

Canbek said:


> I would like get some Sanskrit words below



As everybody else indicated, all the evidence supports an Arabic etymology. It is probably possible to site Iranian/Indic (or any other) similar sounding words, but you need to also site the history of transmission of those words to Turkish in the appropriate time-frame. I guess, only the Arabic form satisfies that.


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## Canbek

Probably I should do what I have to do...I've got no problem with Hamd-Muhammed, this is obviously Arabic....But there is a doubt exists for Mehmed, unsure...Like in "Osman", which is known as Arabic for every Muslim, might turn out to be from a different language, who knows...


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## urdustan

These are all Muslim names from Arabic!  Why do you think they're from a different language?


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> Probably I should do what I have to do...I've got no problem with Hamd-Muhammed, this is obviously Arabic....But there is a doubt exists for Mehmed, unsure...Like in "Osman", which is known as Arabic for every Muslim, might turn out _*to be from a different language, who knows*_...


 Sorry, but I don't get this. Why is Mehmed a problem? I'm no expert in Turkish / Turkic languages but in Turkish vowels are pronounced in certain ways different from the original Arabic and on top of this there is such a thing as vowel harmonization. The _*mu*_ of the original *muHammad* becoming *me*, I assume, also resulted in the second vowel changing to give *mehmed *and the softening of _*d*_* --> t* would give _*mehmet*_. The source, however, remains *muHammad*.

_*Now you've really lost me!*_


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## Canbek

Mehmed is not Turkish ..If it was, I wouldn't ask this...I said, Its used in Turkish ...I'm trying to understand, why ?  Muhammed is also used as a name...This is strange...Previously I thought it was the way that Kurds pronounciate Muhammed in Kurdish ?  I'm Kurd and my father's name was Mehmed too...On the other hand there is many Turks also have this name too...I'm trying to understand the I.E connection, but so far has obviously,  failed...


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> Mehmed is not Turkish ..If it was, I wouldn't ask this...I said, Its used in Turkish ...I'm trying to understand, why ?  Muhammed is also used as a name...This is strange...Previously I thought it was the way that Kurds pronounciate Muhammed in Kurdish ?  I'm Kurd and my father's name was Mehmed too...On the other hand there is many Turks also have this name too...*I'm trying to understand the I.E connection, but so far has obviously,  failed*...


 It seems obvious that you have made up your mind about certain issues! 

Mehmed is a pronunciation used by Turkish / Turkic speaking people. I should know this much since I have friends who are native speakers of this language group and some are called just that - Mehmed. Just like *this fellow*. Other examples exist too.

_*You'll continue to fail because you are on the wrong route!*_


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## Canbek

I think there's a misunderstanding...I am simply trying to understand,  whilst there's a word Muhammed DOES exist in Turkish/Kurdish/Persian   and so on....Why would Mehmed also be used if it was same or a corrupt  form of Muhammed  as Treaty suggested ?  Yes, I might be on the wrong  route...But not in the route you've suggested...The guy that you've  provided me the  link was not a Turk, and wasnot speaking Turkish at  that time...Because, those days, there was no Turkish as spoken today !   So, this word Mehmed is NOT  Turkish but used in Turkish, as well as  among Kurds , Persians and probably among Lurs, Balocis as well...The  question is now would be, is this name in Mehmed form, been used in  Arabic or not ?


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## Wolverine9

Mehmed is the Turkishized (Turkish influenced) form of Muhammad.  Turks ruled much of the Middle East for centuries so their influence (including naming style) spread among the Kurds and others.  It's common to have both the proper forms of names and the corrupted forms coexisting within a society.  I don't know why that's so hard for you to believe.  Don't English speakers have names like Richard and Rick/Dick, William and Bill, Elizabeth and Lisa? It's the same phenomenon.


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## Canbek

"Mihrimah" is one of the Ottoman Empire's daughter's  name...Farsi-Persian....Mihr  is Sun, Mah is Moon...In Mehmed or Mehmet  or Mehmad's case, unsure but same pattern may be observed. ..Meh  means "  great(er), old(er) in  Persian...The question Now: is there any words   in Persian such as  " Med or Met or Mat or Mad" to form a name Mehmed  ...etc ?


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## Qureshpor

Could her name be محرمة as opposed to مھرماہ ?

http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/السلطانة_محرمة


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## Canbek

I wish so badly I would-should-shall-will.....write and read and speak  Arabic OR Persian ....If you could explain those Arabic or  Persian  words I would be happy to  discus.

 That's the pricess I mentioned...Many words  of purely " Arian" existed and given  as names to the members of Ottoman dynasty.


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> I think there's a misunderstanding...I am simply trying to understand,  whilst there's a word Muhammed DOES exist in Turkish/Kurdish/Persian   and so on....Why would Mehmed also be used if it was same or a corrupt  form of Muhammed  as Treaty suggested ?  Yes, I might be on the wrong  route...But not in the route you've suggested...The guy that you've  provided me the  link was not a Turk, and wasnot speaking Turkish at  that time...Because, those days, there was no Turkish as spoken today !   So, this word Mehmed is NOT  Turkish but used in Turkish, as well as  among Kurds , Persians and probably among Lurs, Balocis as well...The  question is now would be, is this name in Mehmed form, been used in  Arabic or not ?


 Yes, Mehmed isn't Turkish in origin! I don't think we are saying that. It is _Arabic in origin, _as has been said many time before (!), but Mehmed is used in Turkish (for reasons already given ) and even you agree that it is used. Mehmed is derived from the Arabic 

Here is something from Wikipedia in Turkish!

*II. Mehmed*

 (Osmanlı Türkçesi: *محمد بن مراد خان, Meḥemmed b. Murād Ḫān*_)

_.... and please, *Mehmed* and *Mehemmed* are just variations of the Arabic *محمد* Muhammad !

Why is this proving so difficult?


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> "Mihrimah" is one of the Ottoman Empire's daughter's  name...Farsi-Persian....Mihr  is Sun, Mah is Moon...In Mehmed or Mehmet  or Mehmad's case, unsure but same pattern may be observed. ..Meh  means "  great(er), old(er) in  Persian...The question Now: is there any words   in Persian such as  " Med or Met or Mat or Mad" to form a name Mehmed  ...etc ?


 Please see my above post! Your question has been amply answered.


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## Canbek

O.K...You have no idea about Turkish language...History  etc. So why  don't you stop giving me that Turkish links which I already have memorised   the contents for 50 years ? Just a hint for you and if you won't stop  giving me these links, just don't bother responding any more,.. I'm tired of  reading and writing answers to  your helpless and time consuming  responds....Ottoman Empire's language  was Persian when it was  founded...Arabic element started to get involve to the language heavily  250 years later...And this subject is not the  right  platform to  discus  this matter...


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## marrish

^ If you are acquainted with Turkish and its history, especially with the policy of proper persons' names after the establishment of the republic, you will surely be able to contribute here and tell us whether Arabic or overtly Muslim names were banned or not. This might explain why the name Mehmet which is a Turkish adaptation of the name which came in all the responses above was accepted and there are many Mehmets in Turkey but I never met a Muhammad.


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## Canbek

Marrish, I'm not sure about this...Moderators won't accept historical  subjects to be discussed in this platform...I know from  experience...There is many people have the name   Muhammed  in  Turkish...No problem with  that...However there's been a lot of issues  related to a lot of things and names  but this is a seperate  issue...And  actually ,whilst the name Muhammed does exist and as well  as the corrupt form of it  Mehmed  does ( some respondents' advice ),    that's why I'm looking into it...I think, this Mehmed  has got something to do with our  Irani  languages; how ever the focus  point is Persian in this case ...We gotta bear in mind that, after  Sasani Empire collapsed , which the official religion was  Zerdusti=Zoroastrian, and after replaced  with Islam ( as a common  faith) , there had been many changes in culturel  concepts etc. until  the Safawid Empire well established its religious and cultural  institutions...There had been a gap full of various challenges  got  involved in this period for Aryan peoples generally...By the way,  Ottoman Empire's founder's  language was Persian not Turkish  and that's  the starting point for me to be suspicious about Ottoman History  etc...How ever, I might be wrong and Mehmed may be the corrupt version  of Muhammed as absolutely accepted that way in Turkey too...


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## Treaty

For the role of Persian in Ottoman empire this is a good link:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/historiography-xiv

Considering Mehmed (The Conqueror)  you can easily trace back the original spelling and pronunciation of  them. In the Abjad sources (Persian, Arabic and Turkish) it was always  spelled محمد and in contemporary Latin and Greek  sources it was transcribed as Mahometus and Moameth (μωάμεθ) clearly  reflecting its then pronunciation (Muhammad). 

The transformation of _muhammad _to _mehmed _in  pre-Modern colloquial Turkish is a very simple process of  simplification of a complex of voiceless consonants and vowels. It  exists in many other languages including Persian. For example, we call close  friends _M*a*mad _if their name is _M*oha*mmad_. But you cannot find _Mamad _anywhere  in Iran (either Persian, Turk, Kurd, Baloch, ...) independent from its  original form Mohammad محمد. The fact that you see them aside each other  in Turkey is because 1) due to the changed writing system the  connection between the original word and the colloquial version is  broken 2) the state has deliberately encouraged this break by endorsing  the colloquial "pure" Turkish over the "infiltrated" Ottoman Turkish.



Canbek said:


> Back to  this " Mehmed"   issue , "Meh" , which means  "  great(er)" in  Persian  , is a good starting point for an out come,  but  unfortunately   so far  we had nothing...May be I am wrong to pursue this   matter.



Because you are not searching for an "outcome".  You have it already in your mind: "a pure Aryan etymology". You just  want us to force (or forge) a process to satisfy this "outcome".


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## ancalimon

The name Mehmet has the same meaning as Muhammed. Some people who wanted to name their children as Muhammed out of respect for the prophet, choose this name instead (although some people still named their children as Muhammed). It is Islamic tradition among most of the Turks to not name their children as Muhammed because most of the people here think that name should only belong to Muhammed himself.

I guess that it's simply the Turkified form of the name Muhammed.

Mahmut as far as I know, is another such name.

They are both Arabic in origin.

Of course we can not know what happened much before that. I myself have thought about Indian origin for the basis of Semitic religions as a whole (and thus probably some Semitic words or maybe even some Sumerian words). But there is nothing concrete to support these ideas apart from bits and pieces of information, some coincidences and a vivid imagination!


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## Canbek

Treaty   , you said  : "Because you are not searching for an "outcome".  You have it already in  your mind: "a pure Aryan etymology". You just  want us to force (or  forge) a process to satisfy this "outcome",

    Answer is No...

  I was  hoping to find help   from Iranians, but It didn't work : it's got nothing to do with what you said...I don't care whether its Arabic or Ugandan or something else...I'm after the reality, facts, that's it...I thought  It's got to do with pre-Islamic,Zerdusti environment...Don't worry about my  inquiry any more and  thanks for your critics, really...


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## Faylasoof

Canbek said:


> O.K...You have no idea about Turkish  language...History  etc. ...


 I feel it is  you who has no idea of the Turkish language and how Arabic names have been adapted within the Turkish speaking world.


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## إسكندراني

They are just variations (mispronunciations) of the original.
in Egypt we write in Arabic letters so our mispronunciation (me7ammad) is less obvious.
in Somalia it's maxamed (in their alphabet, x is ح)
etc.

Also, to clarify, are you saying Ottoman Turkish didn't exist, Canbek?


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## Canbek

In my opinion,  in Egypt  if its barely a mispronunciation; in Somalia  its Maxamed, instead of Muhammed, that's understandable ... Look I'm not a  linguist or etymologist, and I haven't got the educational discipline in  these areas.So I'm wide open to make mistakes, lack of proper defining   skills in this area...About Ottoman Turkish, let me explain :From the  date that Ottoman founded, 1299  to I would say until the annexation of  Hicaz during 1517, the official language of the Empire was simply  Persian !  After the annexation of Hicaz and start of relations with  Arabic AND Islamic world, Arabic language takes over  ( words etc). So  there was no "Ottoman Turkish" in that era, simply because there was no  official Turkish  language...It was Persian...For information:  the name  Mehmed-Memad-Mamad and as well as Mihemmed was  common in these forms, among Kurds  in Turkey, Iraq, Syria etc....Among the ones who call themselves Turk, Mehmet and Muhammed is used as names too...And  everyone thinks its a corrupt version of Muhammed...However, I thought  it could well be an old Iranian word other than the corrupt version of Muhammed   because of obvious reasons I  depicted above ( Ottoman etc.) ...That's why I made the inquiry...But so far it's proven  that there was  nothing to support my claim...So under these  circumstances, I should admit that my father's   and his great grand  father's  name Memad-Mamad was simply  a corrupt version of Muhammed, as  accepted ...Thanks to everyone who suggested  some words, links and  explanations.


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## xdlx

Canbek said:


> In my opinion,  in Egypt  if its barely a mispronunciation; in Somalia  its Maxamed, instead of Muhammed, that's understandable ... Look I'm not a  linguist or etymologist, and I haven't got the educational discipline in  these areas.So I'm wide open to make mistakes, lack of proper defining   skills in this area...About Ottoman Turkish, let me explain :From the  date that Ottoman founded, 1299  to I would say until the annexation of  Hicaz during 1517, the official language of the Empire was simply  Persian !



Hi Canbek.. i guess the argument about "mehmed" is closed. I would like to quickly tell you that you are misinformed about the official language of ottomans before the conquest of hejaz.. I guess depends on how you define official. it was always "ottoman turkish" in court (and state documents), which is turkish with a lot of farsi/arabic loanwords. it was plain "turkish" among the turkish population (in central anatolia the former Bey of Karaman had even banned other languages). I will mention all state documents are available for public viewing to confirm this.

Persian was always a "prestige" language, seen as a more artistic/elegant language that was used in poetry and philosophy, and so on. arabic was used in religious writings. 

Seeing as religion was a huge part of life those days (in kurdish population as well), I dont think it should come as a surprise to you or anyone that the name of the prophet, who is an arab with an arabic name, is widespread.


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