# culture roots



## sbchinese

hi everyone, 
i have to translate the title of a magazine. it is "Roots" in english but i don't know which can be the best translation in chinese.
来源， 根源，this magazine is about european culture roots, it deals with subject like european history, food, lifestyle, travel.
i hope you can help me. Thank you in advance!


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## dolmens

If you are talking about the culture roots, the word _根源_ could be used.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Such translations would never apply word-by-word law. To give it a new Chinese name is much better.


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## 铭铭s

how about 起源？


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## dolmens

There are too many of them, 起源，根源，根，源，本源，泉源，始源，源头，...


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## Skatinginbc

尋根雜誌


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## ElGarcia

retrogradedwithwind said:


> Such translations would never apply word-by-word law. To give it a new Chinese name is much better.



Agreed. In your case you may want to indicate in the Chinese title that the magazine is about European culture, as that will not be assumed in China. Such as: 欧洲文化溯源


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## dolmens

Talking about the title of the magazine, you need not and should not add extra words such as _文化, 欧洲, etc._


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## SuperXW

Or 根基 for roots. 文化根基 for culture roots.
However, other suggestions like 寻根 or 溯源 are nicer for a magazine name.


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## Skatinginbc

尋根 (往下找根基) and 溯源 (往上找源頭) are not identical.
The magazine deals with not only history, but also 草根文化 like food, lifestyle, travel, and so forth.


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## sbchinese

Thanks to all of you!
i don't need to mention europe because it is already in the subtitle. The complete name is in fact "Radici Magazine" - European lifestyle. (Radici means roots).
so maybe a translation could be "根源"杂志 -  欧洲生活方式 or  "溯源"杂志 -  欧洲生活方式. 
i need a translation which can be understood in China without misunderstandings. 
Thanks.


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## ElGarcia

Skatinginbc said:


> The magazine deals with not only history, but also 草根文化 like food, lifestyle, travel, and so forth.



I'm not sure why the roots of food, travel, lifestyle etc have to be 草根文化, but the OP could definitely decide from the actual contents. Speaking of the difference between 寻根 and 溯源 I personally think it is more a rhetorical one. They literally mean the same thing but (perhaps due to the digging in/tracing up nuance) tend to be used in slightly different situations (Compare 寻本溯源，追根究底）. To me 寻根 intuitively suggests someone looking for their ancestors. 根 has a strong sense of lineage/ancestry/blood-related roots. So in the case of cultural roots I prefer to avoid that word. 源 is more used to refer to the origin of intangible concepts/ideas/movements.


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## Skatinginbc

根 foundation 向四方散開 (多元) vs. 源 origin 向單線集中 (單元)


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## ElGarcia

Skatinginbc said:


> 根 foundation 向四方散開 (多元) vs. 源 origin 向單線集中 (單元)



Not necessarily. 
"可找着病根儿了” - the single cause of a complex syndrome
"原来这事的根子在你身上“ - the single person responsible for all subsequent trouble
“开源节流” - could be multiple sources

本，源/原，根，基 all have similar meanings in Chinese, and if one has to establish a one-to-one correspondence between them and their English counterparts (which I personally think is impossible and not very helpful), I would say 基 is closer to "foundation" and ”root" best describes 根.


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## Skatinginbc

The point I tried to make was two-fold:
1. Apart from other definitions such as 本源, 根 'root' strongly connotes 'foundation' 基礎/依据, which is relatively lacking in 源.  The latter is more or less restricted to 'source, origin, cause' 源委/源本/源由/起源.
2. When one digs out the roots (尋根), what he normally would find is something that grows in many directions 向四方散開, that receives nutrition (or figuratively 'input/contribution') from multiple places.  In contrast, when one looks for the waterhead (溯源), not all inflows are considered "_the _source".  For example, despite four possible sources for the Oxus, only one can be "the true source".

Thus 尋根, to me, is to discuss various sources and elements that contribute to the so-called European culture. 溯源, on the other hand, is to look for a common origin behind many facets of the European culture.


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## ElGarcia

The majority usage of 寻根 in modern Chinese refers to looking for one's ancestor/origin (see “中华寻根网” “台湾寻根网” “寻根之旅”, which all organize/facilitate such efforts）, where the target destination is actually singular (the family or hometown). That is also the reason I have reservations about using the word in the OP's case. The only notable exception might be 寻根文学，but that again feels very "Chinese" (Chinese tend to see their culture, tradition, etc. as an inheritance from their ancestry, hence 根）. I can‘t say if 溯源 is the best translation possible, but using 寻根 to refer to the roots of European culture/lifestyle sounds very odd to my ears.


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## SuperXW

I agree with Elgarcia. And as usual, I find Skatinginbc's thoughts hard to accept... orz


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## Skatinginbc

【嶺南尋根之旅】以海外華僑和港澳同胞的視角，通過漫遊廣東不同地區有代表性的十三個城鎮鄉村，追尋領略絢麗多姿的嶺南歷史文化、建築文化、民俗文化、飲食文化、園林文化、商業文化及宗教文化，親身感受滄海桑田的巨大變遷，從而加深了解民族家世的過去與未來，吸引更多海外華人和港澳特區青年回國回鄉觀光旅遊，認祖歸宗。==> That is exactly the concept I tried to convey with 尋根:
(1) 根源 origin: Cultural history
(2) 根基 foundation: Multiple elements 多元 (歷史、建築、民俗、飲食、園林、商業及宗教) that contribute to and serve as the cultural foundation.


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## dolmens

As the magazine talks too much subjects, I think it's best translated into _根_, anything else could be misleading.


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## ElGarcia

Skatinginbc said:


> 認祖歸宗


This is exactly what 寻根 is about in this case.

Other examples:
寻根网——中国家谱文化寻根交流
台湾寻根网（a Chinese surname/genealogy database）
中国寻根之旅 - 海外华裔青少年夏令营网上交流平台（Foreign adolescents with Chinese origin come back to China to reconnect with their ancestry/hometown, i.e. 根）


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## Skatinginbc

鄉土尋根 does not equate 認祖歸宗.  鄉土文化尋根之旅 involves visiting historical or cultural sites.

Radici, a French-Italian bilingual magazine for enthusiasts of Italy, attracts an audience that are descendants of Italian immigrants in France.  The sense of 認祖歸宗 certainly would not hurt.
Radici Magazine, which focuses on small towns and countryside lifestyle in Europe, certainly falls into the category of 鄉土尋根.


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## SuperXW

Please, it appears in the same sentence! How can you say it has "nothing to do with" it, twice...
ElGarcia has given many real-life examples for his/her claims. Could you please give us not only the theories, but the same amount of modern, real-life examples, where 寻根 is used but not related in anyway to old people and things?
I think your opinions are often more about "what it used to be, and what it SHOULD be now". Although it is valuable, the current fact is always worthy to be understood first.


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW, did you actually read my links: 鄉土尋根 and 鄉土文化尋根之旅? I don't understand the comment that "it appears in the same sentence". 


SuperXW said:


> ElGarcia has given many real-life examples for his/her claims. Could you please give us not only the theories, but the same amount of modern, real-life examples, where 寻根 is used but not related in anyway to old people and things?


Where is ElGarcia's real-life example that 溯源 can be used in such that it is unrelated to old people or things?


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## SuperXW

I didn't. Why did I have to? Since 认祖归宗 was already in your sentence...
Well, I don't typically oppose that 寻根 can be used for the magazine and those cultural activities. But I think it shouldn't be denied that the word is commonly related to ancesters and hometown.
Also, "根 foundation 向四方散開 (多元) vs. 源 origin 向單線集中 (單元)", where did you get that...


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> Why did I have to? Since 认祖归宗 was already in your sentence...


I still don't understand it.  I honestly don't understand it.  Anyway, I'm tired.  Bye-bye for now.  Good night, pals.


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## ElGarcia

Skatinginbc said:


> Radici, a French-Italian bilingual magazine for enthusiasts of Italy, attracts an audience that are descendants of Italian immigrants in France.



Hmm. I didn't know this background. If so 根 might be the right word, assuming that the magazine's focus is to re-establish the connection between these migrants and their ancestry/hometown. 寻根, however, carries a stronger sense of actively "looking for" those roots or "revisit" the hometown, so it may describe personal effort researching one's genealogy or traveling to one's hometown or country, but not a magazine that targets a wide audience (IMO).

Moreover, if the magazine is more focused on the Italian lifestyle itself (or even European lifestyle more generally) instead of the *connection* (I think this is the essence of 寻根）between Italian French migrants and their ancestors/history/culture, then I wouldn't recommend 根 as a title.


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> I still don't understand it.  I honestly don't understand it.  Anyway, I'm tired.  Bye-bye for now.  Good night, pals.


Sorry I‘ve confused your last two links with 嶺南尋根之旅... orz
【嶺南尋根之旅】……，通過…………，吸引……回鄉觀光旅遊，認祖歸宗。
To me, this sentence almost clearly points out that one purpose of this 寻根之旅 is 认祖归宗...

尋根 does not equate 認祖歸宗, of course. Few words can totally equate another. But they can be closely related. It is easy for people to make associations. That's why 认祖归宗 and 寻根 are often discussed under the same topic.

Good night!!!


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## Skatinginbc

The English word "Roots":
(1) The condition of being settled and belonging to a particular place or society, e.g., "His roots in Texas go back a long way" 在地紮根; The state of establishing a personal affinity for a particular culture, society, or environment 愛鄉情懷 ==> As the title of a magazine, 'Roots' evokes associations with "local culture and tradition" (在地文化傳統) and "local lifestyle and customs" (在地風俗人情) ==> grassroots culture 草根文化. 
(2) The condition of belonging to a particular place or group by virtue of social or ethnic or cultural lineage, e.g., "He went back to Sweden to search for his roots" (認祖歸宗) ==> cultural heritage 探求文化遺產

The complete name of the magazine is in fact "*Radici Magazine--European lifestyle*".  What does that tell us?  It emphasizes Definition (1).  And I've demonstrated with "real-life" examples that 尋根 is able to cover both definitions.  For example, in 鄉土尋根, it covers topics such as 認識在地鄉土, 下鄉紮根, 記錄家鄉的種種見聞, 愛護鄉土的情懷, 鄉土誌 (local history), 敘寫鄉土草根型人物, etc.  And in 鄉土文化尋根之旅, it covers 探索在地文化的特質, 接觸地方特色，加深對在地文化的認同，傳統文化的探索, as well as case study of local features, such as 老爸機場咖啡休閒農場服務品質之研究 and 新崛江商店街吸引青少年原因之探討. 

In 社區鄉土尋根-經驗傳承活動, 尋根 does not mean "to look for the origin" (探求本源 or 溯源).  Rather, it means "to look for the foundation" that supports our culture or "the source" that contributes to our culture.  The word 源 is weak in conveying the sense of 在地(紮根).  根 connotes "down".  源 connotes "up".


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## ElGarcia

Interesting. I would say 寻根之旅 (trips to one's hometown or country to reconnect with local culture/tradition etc.) sounds closer to "seeking one's origin" in English. I find your philosophical thoughts about the underlying meaning of certain Chinese words/characters enlightening, but not always convincing or applicable to modern users.

寻根之旅 first requires the traveler to be related to the destination place/family by blood (e.g., migrant or offspring). Otherwise there is no 根 to look for. Also I don't think 根 has any particular implications on 多元. To express ”foundation", 基 or 本 would be better. But again it all depends on the context.

Another thing I think you've ignored is that, apart from being precise, we also (and often more) care about the aesthetic quality of our sentences/expressions, especially in formal language. To make something sounds/reads good is a legitimate reason for using similar but not identical expressions, or adding meaningless characters/words to a sentence. So, although many synonyms in Chinese may indeed have slightly different meanings, we cannot really dictate "in this scenario use A, and in that use B". One may find that A is indeed more used in scenario 1 in real life, but that could be due to aesthetic preferences as much as nuance in meanings.


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## Skatinginbc

ElGarcia said:


> 寻根之旅 first requires the traveler to be related to the destination place/family by blood (e.g., migrant or offspring).


It sounds as if we have a language police here who gives out a prescriptive rule and blatantly ignores the actual language use in certain Chinese communities.  I already gave some examples that 寻根 has been currently used by educational institutes in Taiwan to refer to the study of multifaceted cultural roots of the local society--one that not necessarily entails ancestral affiliation. I don't mind if you say "it may not be applicable in China" or "I don't like it because bla bla bla".  And I don't mind if you give out a rule BEFORE counter evidence has been presented (because most people, including me, do not know all varieties of the Chinese language).  But please don't state it in such a blanket manner AFTER "real-life" counter evidence has been given as if the Chinese people in China are the only legitimate "_modern users_" of the Chinese language.  


Re: aesthetic quality
根 sounds more 鄉土, more 草根.  That's why I like it better.  And I don't like the connotations of 溯 "recall, go against the stream".


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## ElGarcia

I was actually waiting for this discussion to turn into some sort of personal attack since it had appeared that you took it rather personally. "A language police..." "blatantly ignores..." lol. The word "requires" might be a little too absolute in my post above but you definitely didn't see any problem in your own post earlier "blatantly" (I would rather not use that word on a language forum, really) asserting "乡土寻根 has nothing to do with 认祖归宗……“ even when the text you provided yourself includes "认祖归宗” in the description of 乡土寻根活动. I saw you edited that post and softened your tone later, of course. I could easily do the same, but what's the point? I'm not trying to win an award here. These small inaccuracies are often made in such discussions, but I thought the point of discussion on this forum is to help Chinese learners and researchers, not to attack each other's weak points, like I've said before. Perhaps you don't see it that way, as you sounds more like a language police in almost every thread where we have discussed (ironically our opinions are always at odds), and you obviously possess the determination and vigor needed for that role. Keep up the good work.

Back to the topic, I said 寻根之旅 needs some sorts of blood connection between the subjects and what they look for (根). It doesn't have to be direct ancestral affiliation, but there has to be some connection- e.g., the vague linkage between overseas Chinese migrants and the hometowns of their ancestors. A foreigner, no matter how interested in Chinese culture, cannot come to China for a 寻根之旅， as his/her root is not here. Likewise, Taiwanese living in cities could go to the countryside to 寻根 （supposedly their parents or grandparents were from rural communities), but someone from mainland can only visit Taiwan countryside as a tourist, not a 寻根者。The difference is obvious.

In addition: I myself suggested 溯源 at first but I didn't elaborate or defend it at length in my later posts. There might be better options; what I was trying to explain here is merely why I feel 寻根 unsuitable. The fact that you (or other people) don't like 溯源 doesn't make 寻根 sound any better to me. I really don't know why you keep bringing it up as if this is a contest between the two of us or something.


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## brofeelgood

I'm not here to create more controversy about 根源.

Instead, I would like to put forward my suggestion: 渊源

Two widely used interpretations are:
(1) source, origin or root - 诊断出问题的渊源
(2) bond/connection/ties - A与B之间的渊源


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> "根 foundation 向四方散開 (多元) vs. 源 origin 向單線集中 (單元)", where did you get that...


It is common sense that most roots spread out in all directions to form the foundation for the plants.  Thus the 根 in 尋根之旅 usually takes its broad definition and involves multiple aspects.  For example, The “寻根之旅” sponsored by 国务院侨办 has the objectives of 学习中文、了解中国国情、了解中华文化、促进交流, and includes activities such as 学习中国民族舞蹈、武术、汉语、和文化常识、参观历史文化名胜等。 尋根 is to seek for the rootS (plural, e.g., 语文, 国情, 舞蹈, 武术, 常识, 历史, 文化名胜) that support the plant (e.g., 中国, the motherland).  The TV program 《嶺南尋根之旅》 is multifaceted, 到訪城鎮、鄉村，講述廣東省的歷史、建築、民俗、飲食、園林、商業及宗教等文化--introduction of various elements that contribute to the Guangdong culture.  The participants of 2015 泉州国立华侨大学的“寻根之旅” include 广东移民, 台湾移民, not restricted to 泉州移民 (in Fujian).  If you interpret it as 認祖歸宗, the "hometown" is usually in its broad definition rather than a narrowly defined "destination" like 福建泉州王氏祠堂. 

In contrast, 源頭 of a river is its 發源地.  黃河的發源地 is 青藏高原唐古拉山主峰各拉丹东的西南侧 despite the fact that 渭河在陕西省注入黄河, 汾河在山西省汇入黄河, and many other streams and rivers that have contributed to the water flow of 黃河.  The 源 in 溯源之旅 usually has a narrow definition.  For instance, “九十年挚爱 开出趣“英国溯源之旅 starts from China and 最终抵达MG品牌发源地英国阿宾顿  through a linear (單線) course of pursuit.  從裏海到倫敦的石油溯源之旅 (The Oil Road: Journeys from the Caspian Sea to the City of London) takes a similar approach.  东原逸墅溯源之旅 takes its clients eventually to 重庆东原地产总部所在地.

溯源: 探求本源.  本源: (1) 流水的源頭 (2) 比喻根本、起源。
尋根: 尋找根源.  根源: (1) 事物的本原、來源, (2) 事物的根基、基礎 ==> "Cultural roots", as SuperXW has suggested (post #9), is best translated as "文化根基".


ElGarcia said:


> Likewise, Taiwanese living in cities could go to the countryside to 寻根 （supposedly their parents or grandparents were from rural communities)


No, that's not what "鄉土尋根" (as used in Taiwan curriculum) is about.  It is about YOU (not your ancestors), I mean, about the place that a person has settled in, established affinity with, and belonged to (e.g., 生於斯長於斯的鄉土).  It is about your 在地紮根的鄉土.


ElGarcia said:


> asserting "乡土寻根 has nothing to do with 认祖归宗“...I saw you edited that post and softened your tone later, of course.


Please don't distort the facts.  I edited my post BEFORE any response had appeared (Check the time shown).  Even if I had kept my post intact, it still holds true: 鄉土尋根 and 鄉土文化尋根之旅 have nothing to do with 認祖歸宗 (Please check the links).


ElGarcia said:


> the text you provided yourself includes "认祖归宗” in the description of 乡土寻根活动.


In Post #27, SuperXW already acknowledged and apologized for the confusion.  Please don't distort the facts and spread the confusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong: I think the magazine is about  文化根基的 "根", 紮根的 "根" (介紹生於斯長於斯的鄉土--歐洲).  Please enlighten me how 溯源 or 源 could successfully convey that meaning.  And I would like to point out that the title of the magazine is "RootS" (plural), not "Root" (singular).


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## Skatinginbc

sbchinese said:


> maybe a translation could be "根源"杂志 -  欧洲生活方式 or  "溯源"杂志 -  欧洲生活方式.


Since you are seriously considering 溯源, I think we should inform you of its connotations.
What's the difference between 根 and 源?
詞根 'root word or base word, the primary lexical unit of a word' vs. 詞源 'etymology, origin of a word'
鞋跟 'heel of a shoe' vs. 鞋源 'source of shoe supplies'
根 emphasizes 'base, foundation' while 源 focuses on 'origin, source'

The morpheme 根 usually indicates the base part of the whole that may be composed of several heterogeneous parts.  For example, 牆根 is the base part of 牆; 耳根 is the base part of 耳.  耳根 cannot independently function as an 耳.  It has to work with other parts to form an 耳. 六根 (as in 六根清淨) is not six of a kind.  It refers to six different types of senses (i.e., 眼、耳、鼻、舌、身、意六種感官).  二根 is not two of a kind.  It refers to two different types of sex organs (i.e.,  男性性器官、女性性器官).  The focus is their different functions that join together in harmony or as an integrated whole.

In contrast, the morpheme 源 usually refers to the source or origin of homogeneous objects (e.g., 電源, 財源, 波源, 稿源, 光源).  源 itself can mean 'resource' (e.g., 能源, 資源).  When we talk about multiple 電源, we emphasize their common feature--to supply electricity.  Each 電源 is able to supply electricity on its own, each 財源 can independently bring you money, and each 光源 can independently bring you light.  That is to say, despite their differences in origin or source, they share a homogeneous function--to supply something.  Thus 多源 'multi-source' (as in multi-source downloads) or 'multi-origin' (as in multiphyletic origin of the yeasts) implies a homogeneous function (e.g., to supply data for downloads) or a seemingly homogeneous group (e.g., yeasts are seemingly homogeneous although they are in fact not).

Also, 根 does NOT have to refer to ancestors, for instance, 落地生根 (長期定居): 這個村子民風淳樸，他正打算在此住下，落地生根.


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## sbchinese

so, what about 寻根?
which of all these alternatives do you think would fit better?
Thanks to you all.


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## Skatinginbc

寻根 'Root-seeking' also has its problems.  As other posters have already pointed out, it has a strong connotation of 'ancestral affiliation', especially in Mainland Mandarin.  I like the word 根.  I recommend that no matter what you eventually pick, it at least needs to include the word 根.  It is the obvious Chinese equivalent for 'Roots', anyway.


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## sbchinese

ok, thanks a lot!


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## ElGarcia

brofeelgood said:


> Instead, I would like to put forward my suggestion: 渊源



I like this word as well.



Skatinginbc said:


> Also, 根 does NOT have to refer to ancestors, for instance, 落地生根 (長期定居): 這個村子民風淳樸，他正打算在此住下，落地生根.



I didn't say it HAS to be about ancestors, just in a disturbingly lot of circumstances so (well perhaps that is a mainland thing again). In the case of 落地生根, for example, the village will eventually become the 根 for this person's offspring. 

Anyways, I just wanted to say the nuance between these synonyms, 根，源，基，本，etc. are not as black and white as you depict, and there is definitely a factor of subjective/personal preferences in choosing which to use. I can certainly see you like the word 根 a lot, though I still do not buy the distinct meanings you impose on 根 and 源. Enough said, congrats on winning the contest.


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