# To wash one's hands (grammar)



## ger4

A discussion on the use of pronouns made me think of asking another question ... Sentences of the type 'I am washing my hands' seem to be constructed quite differently in different languages. English uses a possessive pronoun ('my hands'). In German, we use the definite article instead: _Ich wasche mir die Hände_ - Iit. 'I wash me the hands'. Many other languages (such as Polish, for instance) use neither a possessive pronoun nor an article here. How about your language?


----------



## Encolpius

*Hungarian *--- my favorite issue  --- I really wonder why German tends to use the system preferred in Slavic and Romance languages (my preferred sentence is --- they have stolen my car) ....sentences like that are translated into Hungarian using the *English pattern* -- megmosom a kezem [megmosom I wash, kéz hand, a kezem "the my hand"]


----------



## 涼宮

I think it's safe to say all Romance languages use the article with body parts and not the possessive. Except, of course, for Latin which has no articles .

Japanese uses nothing, no possessives, and it doesn't have articles. 私は手を洗う _watashi wa te wo arau_. I wash hands.


----------



## 810senior

*French *is as almost same as the German but uses the reflexive verb(se laver).
I suppose other Romance languages work like that.

French : Je me lave *les *mains(lit. I wash myself *the *hands)

As for *Japanese*, we commonly say this by leaving out possessive pronoun. (in this case, we don't say in general like *私の*手を洗います[wash *my *hand], it sounds unnatural)
私は手を洗います。watashi wa te o araimasu (lit. I/am/hand/acc./wash = I am washing hands) in a polite way
私は手を洗う。watashi wa te o arau (lit. I/am/hand/acc./wash = I am washing hands, same as above) in a less polite way


----------



## Encolpius

Now I start to think Holger is investigating a different issue....I have found always interesting Slavic and Romance languages use dative case: *Me *lavo las manos. *Me *duele el estómago. *Me *han robado el coche. The same pattern works in Slavic languages...

But if Holger is interested in the definite article, in Hungarian it does not work...


----------



## ger4

Encolpius said:


> --- they have stolen my car [...]


Even in a sentence like this one we can omit the possessive pronoun in German: _Sie haben mir das Auto gestohlen_ (or, more colloquially: _geklaut_) lit. "they have me the car stolen (nicked)" - of course, _mein Auto_ - 'my car' - is correct as well...


----------



## 涼宮

Your German sentence with the car follows the Spanish logic, dative is a very common thing, especially for impersonal sentences. You say: me robaron/chorearon el carro (chorear is colloquial). We don't know who did it even though the conjugation is 3rd person plural. In that regard Spanish follows the Russian logic.


----------



## Encolpius

Holger, are you interested if *definite article* is used?


----------



## apmoy70

Greek uses both the neuter definite article (in plural) and the strong possessive pronoun in genitive:
*«Πλένω τα χέρια μου»* [ˈpleno ta ˈçerʝa mu] --> _I wash the hands of-mine_


----------



## ger4

810senior said:


> *French *is as almost same as the German but uses the reflexive verb(se laver).
> I suppose other Romance languages work like that.
> 
> French : Je me lave *les *mains(lit. I wash myself *the *hands) [...]


Actually, in German it's  exactly the same as in French; we also use the reflexive verb sich waschen ('to wash oneself') + the definite article + hands (only the word order is different: 'I wash (1) me (2) the hands'...


Encolpius said:


> Now I start to think Holger is investigating a different issue....I have found always interesting Slavic and Romance languages use dative case: *Me *lavo las manos. *Me *duele el estómago. *Me *han robado el coche. The same pattern works in Slavic languages...
> 
> But if Holger is interested in the definite article, in Hungarian it does not work...


I guess this short everyday-life sentence is about all these issues: articles, possessive pronouns, reflexive verbs, cases used, ... ... ...

_Der Teufel steckt im Detail_ - The devil is in the detail


----------



## Encolpius

Then, Hungarian is the same as Greek --- megmosom a kezem [a kéz - the hand, a kezem - "the hand of mine"]
But the classical Pilate's quote is --- mosom kezeimet [kezeimet - my hands] 
Why a kezem and then kezeimet is a really difficult issue to explain... The quote is old-fashioned Hungarian... now the rules say you should use singular when using words like eye, hand, foot, but ancient, regional and informal Hungarian uses plural anyway...but that is all off-topic
I wonder how it works in *Bulgarian *where you find definite article...


----------



## ger4

810senior said:


> As for *Japanese*, we commonly say this by leaving out possessive pronoun. (in this case, we don't say in general like *私の*手を洗います[wash *my *hand], it sounds unnatural)
> 私は手を洗います。watashi wa te o araimasu (lit. I/am/hand/acc./wash = I am washing hands) in a polite way
> 私は手を洗う。watashi wa te o arau (lit. I/am/hand/acc./wash = I am washing hands, same as above) in a less polite way





Encolpius said:


> [...]... now the rules say you should use singular when using words like eye, hand, foot, but ancient, regional and informal Hungarian uses plural anyway...but that is all off-topic [...]


In a way, even the singular <> plural distinction could be part of the topic here... In Japanese, the plural often doesn't seem to to be expressed, as far as I know (is that correct?) but it's interesting to see that even in Hungarian the singular form can be used...


----------



## apmoy70

Encolpius said:


> Then, Hungarian is the same as Greek --- megmosom a kezem [a kéz - the hand, a kezem - "the hand of mine"]
> But the classical Pilate's quote is --- mosom kezeimet [kezeimet - my hands]...


The classical Pilate's quote (which is in Koine Greek in the Gospel narratives) is almost identical to the Modern Greek one: *«Νίπτ**ω** τάς χεῖρας μου» níptō tás kʰeîras mou* --> _I wash the hands of-mine_.
The main difference is the Koine verb used, *«νίπτω» níptō* < Classical v. *«νίζω» nízō* --> _to wash, bathe_ (PIE *neigʷ-, _to w__ash_ cf Skt. नेनिक्ते (nenikte), _to purify, wash, cleanse_).
In the Koine language of 1st c. CE the verb described the washing of parts of the body using water, while in MoGr (v. *«νίβω»* [ˈnivo]) is associated with washing the face.


----------



## ger4

涼宮 said:


> Your German sentence with the car follows the Spanish logic, dative is a very common thing, especially for impersonal sentences. You say: me robaron/chorearon el carro (chorear is colloquial). We don't know who did it even though the conjugation is 3rd person plural. In that regard Spanish follows the Russian logic.


That reminds me of this discussion on impersonal verb forms. It's not a very long thread but I guess it can still be expanded... Apart from the Spanish / Russian 3rd person plural construction we often use a pronoun very similar to French _on_ (_man_ in German).


----------



## bibax

Czech uses the reflexive personal pronoun in dative *si* (enclitic), *sobě* (long, emphasized) = _for self, to self_.

Myji *si* ruce. = lit. I-wash *for/to-[my]self* hands.
*Sobě* myji ruce. = emphazised: I am washing MY hands, not someone else's.

Sobě can be used also as an answer:

- Komu myješ ruce? (For/to-whom are-you-washing hands?)
- Sobě. (For-[my]self.)

Myji *své* ruce (possesive reflexive pronoun) is also possible, for instance in poems.

In Latin:

1) reflexive possesive pronoun *suus*:

Lavat Pilatus manus *suas*, ... = Myje Pilát ruce *své*, ...

2) reflexive personal pronoun *sibi* (dative):

Pilatus *sibi* manus lavat, ... = Pilát *si* ruce myje, ...


----------



## ger4

bibax said:


> [...] Myji *své* ruce (possesive reflexive pronoun) is also possible, for instance in poems [...]


In German, this can occur in some idiomatic expressions as well:
_- Ich wasche meine Hände in Unschuld_ - lit. *'I wash my hands in guiltlessness' - 'I wash my hands of it' (perhaps an archaism)


----------



## 810senior

Holger2014 said:


> In a way, even the singular <> plural distinction could be part of the topic here... In Japanese, the plural often doesn't seem to to be expressed, as far as I know (is that correct?) but it's interesting to see that even in Hungarian the singular form can be used...



That's correct. Japanese word 手 can express itself the both meaning. (both hands or one hand, you're only able to know which meaning it is used from the context)


----------



## mataripis

Tagalog: makapaghinaw nga.


----------



## 123xyz

Macedonian:

*мие/измие раце *- lit. to wash hands (no article, no possessive)
Секогаш мијам раце над када наместо над лавабо - I always wash my hands in the bathtub rather than in the sink
*си ги мие/измие рацете* - lit. to oneself to wash the hands (both article and possessive; there is no acceptable option with only article but no possessive or only possessive but no article; bear in mind that "ги" is a reduplicative direct object clitic pronoun, referring to "hands", which is obligatory due to the presence of the definite article)
Пред да седнам да вечерам, си ги измив рацете - Before sitting down to dine, I washed my hands

There is no significant difference between these two ways of expressing the notion of washing hands, though the first may be more colloquial, if we insist on making some distinction. 

P.S. The verb in question is given as an aspect pair
P.P.S. Encolpius, I hope this satisfies your curiosity about Bulgarian to some extent, while you're waiting for an actual Bulgarian speaker's input, since Macedonian is the other Slavic language with a definite article.


----------



## rusita preciosa

Russian:
*мыть руки *- lit. to wash hands (no possessive, no reflexive; Russian does not have articles).

That is default. Of course there are different options depending on the context (e.g. I washed my hands first and then my son's [hands] - я сначала помыл руки себе, а потом сыну (lit. I first washed hands to self and then to son).


----------



## Encolpius

I've just realized the situation in Hungarian might be even more exciting ...actually it is possible to say *kezet mos* [kéz hand, kezet accusative of the word kéz], so no possessive and no article... 
I'm going to wash my hand: 
1. Megyek megmosom/megmosni a kezem. [a kezem - " the hand of mine"]
2. Megyek kezet mosni. 
Don't ask me what the difference is. It's off-topic.


----------



## ger4

Once again, thanks to everyone who replied - despite this thread's title  

Summing up the languages mentioned:
Czech  #15
Finnish  #23
French  #4
German #1
Greek  #9  #11  #13
Hungarian  #2  #21
Japanese  #3  #4  #17
Macedonian  #19
Russian  #20
Tagalog  #18


----------



## Armas

Here's Finnish

Pesen (I wash) käteni (hands + possessive suffix -ni "my"). In spoken Finnish we don't use possessive suffixes that much and we often say Pesen (I wash) kädet (hands).


----------



## ger4

Thanks a lot


----------



## vince

810senior said:


> *French *is as almost same as the German but uses the reflexive verb(se laver).
> I suppose other Romance languages work like that.
> 
> French : Je me lave *les *mains(lit. I wash myself *the *hands)



Actually it is exactly the same, in fact the French "me" here means "to me", like "mir" in German. I.e. the literal translation is "I wash to me the hands".

How we know this is seeing what happens to the verb when you put it in the past tense:

Je me suis lavé(e) <-- the "e" is added if "me" is feminine, because "me" is a DIRECT object.
Je me suis lavé les mains <-- you never see an extra "e" because "me" is an INDIRECT object.


----------



## OneStroke

Chinese: No determiner at all.

To wash one's hands = 洗手 xǐ (=wash) shǒu (=hands)

(You may occasionally hear people insert a possessive adjective/determiner between this and other phrases that do not require it. Such awkward constructions are influenced by Western languages and are incorrect.)


----------



## ger4

Thanks a lot. Amazing how 'compact' the Chinese language can be, especially in comparison with German: _sich die Hände waschen_ --> 4 words, 6 syllables... 

Combined with the personal pronoun 'I', would you simply say *  我 洗手 Wǒ xǐ shǒu ?


----------



## OneStroke

Holger2014 said:


> Thanks a lot. Amazing how 'compact' the Chinese language can be, especially in comparison with German: _sich die Hände waschen_ --> 4 words, 6 syllables...
> 
> Combined with the personal pronoun 'I', would you simply say *  我 洗手 Wǒ xǐ shǒu ?



Yes, grammatically, that is a valid sentence.

I doubt that sentence will ever be heard in actual discourse, however. For example, to express the idea of habit as in 'I wash my hands every day', we'd say 我每天都會洗手 我每天都会洗手 Wǒ měi tiān dōu huì xǐ shǒu.


----------



## M Mira

Holger2014 said:


> Combined with the personal pronoun 'I', would you simply say *  我 洗手 Wǒ xǐ shǒu ?


No. Besides some stative verbs such as be, have, exist, know, marking for tense, aspect, mood is mandatory, so there are:
我 (正)在 洗手。 I'm washing my hands.
我 洗 (好/過) 手 了。 I have washed my hands.
我 洗手 時/的時候，… When I wash my hands, …
如果 我 洗手 (的話)，… If I wash my hands, …

But not 我 洗手, because what English conveys in the simple present (general truth, habit, etc.) must be conveyed with auxiliaries and adverbs in Chinese. Maybe using the verb "naked" in Chinese is a bit similar to using the infinitive in English, like "I to wash my hands"?
------
Edit: I didn't refresh the tab so I haven't see the message above mine before posting.

I would object its grammatical correctness. Is it marked as correct in some official prescriptive grammar guidelines? Because as far as I know, Chinese grammar is just a compilation what N1 Chinese uses/used, so if a form is never used, it's not correct.
------
Edit2: doubly ninja'd


----------



## OneStroke

M Mira said:


> No. Besides some stative verbs such as be, have, exist, know, marking for tense, aspect, mood is mandatory, so there are:
> 我 (正)在 洗手。 I'm washing my hands.
> 我 洗 (好/過) 手 了。 I have washed my hands.
> 我 洗手 時/的時候，… When I wash my hands, …
> 如果 我 洗手 (的話)，… If I wash my hands, …
> 
> But not 我 洗手, because what English conveys in the simple present (general truth, habit, etc.) must be conveyed with auxiliaries and adverbs in Chinese. Maybe using the verb "naked" in Chinese is a bit similar to using the infinitive in English, like "I to wash my hands"?



Grammatically, though, it does fit the general 主 + 謂 structure, and 我洗手 as a 主謂短語 is certainly possible:

Imaginary conversation:
A: 你幹嘛洗手?
B: 我洗手有甚麼問題? 我洗手也要你管嗎?

Since 'I wash my hands', without context, is also meaningless (is the simple present expressing habit or what?), I think 我洗手 could be an 'equivalent' of the English 'I wash my hands' (equally meaningless, just for demonstrating that we don't need a possessive).


----------



## M Mira

OneStroke said:


> Grammatically, though, it does fit the general 主 + 謂 structure, and 我洗手 as a 主謂短語 is certainly possible:
> 
> Imaginary conversation:
> A: 你幹嘛洗手?
> B: 我洗手有甚麼問題? 我洗手也要你管嗎?


Oh, as a phrase, then yes, it works. Like 我 洗手 要 開 水龍頭 I wash.hands must turn.on faucet "I must turn the faucet on to wash hands."


----------



## Encolpius

OneStroke said:


> ... Since 'I wash my hands', without context, is also meaningless...



 very good observation...it is not a natural languages at all and...talking about isolated phrases....


----------



## ger4

vince said:


> Actually it is exactly the same, in fact the French "me" here means "to me", like "mir" in German. I.e. the literal translation is "I wash *to me* the hands".


 That's much more accurate, of course.


-----


> Originally posted by *OneStroke* >>
> [...] I doubt that sentence will ever be heard in actual discourse, however. For example, to express the idea of habit as in 'I wash my hands every day', we'd say 我每天都會洗手 我每天都会洗手 Wǒ měi tiān dōu huì xǐ shǒu.





> Originally posted by *M Mira* *>>*
> [...] Besides some stative verbs such as be, have, exist, know, marking for tense, aspect, mood is mandatory, so there are:
> 我 (正)在 洗手。 I'm washing my hands.
> 我 洗 (好/過) 手 了。 I have washed my hands.
> 我 洗手 時/的時候，… When I wash my hands, …
> 如果 我 洗手 (的話)，… If I wash my hands, …





OneStroke said:


> [...] Imaginary conversation:
> A: 你幹嘛洗手?
> B: 我洗手有甚麼問題? 我洗手也要你管嗎?





> Originally posted by *M Mira >>
> *[...] Like 我 洗手 要 開 水龍頭 I wash.hands must turn.on faucet "I must turn the faucet on to wash hands."


 Many thanks for these explanations and examples.


----------



## mataripis

mataripis said:


> Tagalog: makapaghinaw nga.


this expression is not literal meaning of washing hands but it means not accepting own faults .this can be heard as "Hugas Kamay".


----------



## ThomasK

Dutch: *Mag ik even mijn handen wassen?  *- So no indirect object, just possessive...


----------



## Dymn

Sorry if it annoys you to revive this thread but I find it very interesting. To make things clear, I'd classify three kinds of constructions, according to how we express whose hands are being washed:

1. Dative personal pronoun 'I wash me hands': German, Romance languages, Czech, Macedonian
2. Possessive determiner 'I wash my hands': English, Hungarian, Greek, Macedonian, Finnish, Dutch
3. No marker at all, implied reflexivity 'I wash hands': Chinese, Japanese, Russian

If I'm wrong please tell.

To me the definite article has nothing to do with all that. Czech, for example, hasn't got a definite article but the construction is the same as that of German and Romance languages.


----------



## ger4

^ Many thanks! I think that's a very clear summary. To make sure it stays at the end of the thread I'll copy it:


Diamant7 said:


> 1. Dative personal pronoun 'I wash me hands': German, Romance languages, Czech, Macedonian
> 2. Possessive determiner 'I wash my hands': English, Hungarian, Greek, Macedonian, Finnish, Dutch
> 3. No marker at all, implied reflexivity 'I wash hands': Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Serbian (thanks for addition #38)


----------



## ilocas2

Serbian is like Chinese, Japanese, Russian

*prati ruke* - to wash hands


----------



## Lugubert

Holger2014 said:


> ^ Many thanks! I think that's a very clear summary. To make sure it stays at the end of the thread I'll copy it:
> 1. Dative personal pronoun 'I wash me hands': German, Romance languages, Czech, Macedonian
> 2. Possessive determiner 'I wash my hands': English, Hungarian, Greek, Macedonian, Finnish, Dutch
> 3. No marker at all, implied reflexivity 'I wash hands': Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Serbian (thanks for addition #38)


4. Swedish: 'Jag tvättar händerna' - I wash the hands. Normally, of course, you'd wash your own hands. Parents of young children might have to explain that 'Jag tvättar barnets händer'  - I wash the child's hands.

Shouldn't Chinese and Japanese be 'I wash hand'?


----------



## AutumnOwl

Lugubert said:


> 4. Swedish: 'Jag tvättar händerna' - I wash the hands.


This is the common way to say it, but it's also possible to say "Jag tvättar mina händer" - I wash my hands.


----------



## Lugubert

AutumnOwl said:


> This is the common way to say it, but it's also possible to say "Jag tvättar mina händer" - I wash my hands.


Well, that sounds strange to my ears, except when using the archaic "tvår" as in _Jag tvår mina händer_ (I wash my hands of something; refuse to take responsibility for a performed action.)


----------



## Dymn

Lugubert said:


> Shouldn't Chinese and Japanese be 'I wash hand'?


Yes, but this is a different topic.


----------



## AutumnOwl

Lugubert said:


> Well, that sounds strange to my ears,


_Jag tvättar mina händer före och efter varje patient och använder handsprit, enligt rekommendation från hygiensköterskan_ - I wash my hands before and after each patient, and use hand sanitizer, as recommended by the hygiene nurse.


----------



## kloie

Italian like other romance languages.
Mi lavo le mani


----------



## ger4

Based on the summary in #36 (not taking definite and plural marking into account) I'd put _jag tvättar händerna_ ("I wash hand-s-the") in (3) and _jag tvättar mina händer_ ("I wash my-s hand-s") in (2). Italian would be placed in (1). Hope that's alright, and thanks for all additions.

1. Dative personal pronoun 'I wash me hands': German, Romance languages #3, #4, #44, Czech #15, Macedonian #19

2. Possessive determiner 'I wash my hands': English, Hungarian #2, Greek #9, Finnish #23, Dutch #35, Swedish #43, Haitian Creole #47, Welsh #48, Breton #48 

3. No marker at all, implied reflexivity 'I wash hands': Hungarian #21, Chinese #26, Japanese #4, Russian #20, Serbian #38, Swedish #39,  Macedonian #19

@123xyz @KalAlbè @WestFevalia 
Thanks!


----------



## 123xyz

Macedonian should be placed in 1 and 3, not 1 and 2.


----------



## KalAlbè

Haitian Creole:
*M'ap lave men mwen.*
M'ap - I, progressive
Lave - wash
Men - hands
Mwen - my


----------



## WestFevalia

I read in _English and Celtic in contact_ (by Markku Filppula, Juhani Klemola and Heli Paulasto) that most Indo-European languages use the definite article (like in French, German, etc.)
A few Indo-European languages use possessive pronouns: mainly English and several Celtic languages: Welsh and Breton (I'm sure about these two) and maybe Irish. I don't remember about the other three.
I don't know much about non-Indo-European languages, but I think Arab and Turkish use it too.


----------



## Gavril

WestFevalia said:


> I read in _English and Celtic in contact_ (by Markku Filppula, Juhani Klemola and Heli Paulasto) that most Indo-European languages use the definite article (like in French, German, etc.)
> A few Indo-European languages use possessive pronouns: mainly English and several Celtic languages: Welsh and Breton (I'm sure about these two) and maybe Irish.



Irish fits into this category as well, or at least older Irish did. For example, "I wash my hands" would be _Indlaim mo láma_ or similar (_mo_ = "my").


----------



## kloie

Persian shostan dast haa
I wash my hands-man dasthaayam Ra mishuyam.
I hope I am correct.


----------



## ger4

kloie said:


> Persian shostan dast haa
> I wash my hands-man dasthaayam Ra mishuyam.
> I hope I am correct.


Interesting, thanks. Would this be a possible word-by-word translation?

_man_ من = _I
dast دست _= _hand
haa_ = plural marker
_yam_ = possessive, 1st person sg
_raa _را = direct object marker
_mi_ = imperfective prefix
_shuy_ < present stem of...
_shostan شستن _ = _to wash
am_ = 1st person sg suffix

[Edited _raa_ را ]


----------



## kloie

Holger2014 said:


> Interesting, thanks. Would this be a possible word-by-word translation?
> 
> _man_ من = _I
> dast دست _= _hand
> haa_ = plural marker
> _yam_ = possessive, 1st person sg
> _ra_ = accusative suffix
> _mi_ = imperfective prefix
> _shuy_ < present stem of...
> _shostan شستن _ = _to wash
> am_ = 1st person sg suffix


Yes  and by the way raa is a direct object marker.
Mi has to go in front of verbs that is just one verb.

Man dast haa yam raa mishuyam-I wash my hands
Man daram dast haa yam raa mishuyam-I am washing my hands
Man mikhaham dast haa yam raa beshuyam-I want to wash my hands.


----------



## WestFevalia

Gavril said:


> Irish fits into this category as well, or at least older Irish did. For example, "I wash my hands" would be _Indlaim mo láma_ or similar (_mo_ = "my").



Thank you for your answer, Gavril.
According to the book I mentioned, the use of possessive pronnous may have been of pre-Indo-European origin and then passed into Indo-European languages such as Celtic languages and English, etc.


----------

