# Urdu/Hindi: ikaTThaa vs ikhaTTaa



## Qureshpor

I often hear (or at least I think I do) Urdu speakers pronounce the word "ikaTThaa" as "ikhaTTaa". Furthermore I have thought that they are wrong in pronouncing it in this manner. Today, whilst looking at the "xaandaan/parivaar.." thread, I noticed a quote from Platts, given by Faylasoof SaaHib. This is the quote. You will notice that the word is spelt as "ikhaTTaa". Once again I thought this must be a printing error. Then I decided to look up

H کنبا कुंबा_kumbā, or कुणबा kuṇbā, or कुनबा kunbā, s.m. *Family*, &c. (=کمبا kumbā, q.v.):—kunbā-parwār, s.m. The support of a family:—kunbā joṛnā, or kunbā sakernā, or kunbā *ikhaṭṭā* karnā, To get a large family:—kunbe-wālā, or kunbe-dār, s.m. One who has a large family.

_This is the quote. You will notice that the word is spelt as "ikhaTTaa". Once again I thought this must be a printing error. Then I decided to look up "ikaTThaa" and to my great surprise, this is what I got.

H اکٿها इकठा _ika__ṭ__hā_, इकट्ठा _ika__ṭṭ__hā_, *adv.= **اکهٿا** ikhaṭṭā*, q.v.

Do you pronounce this word as ikaTThaa or ikhaTTaa? Which one do you think is the more common variation?


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## greatbear

I've heard both in equal proportions, and I myself often pronounce it as ikhaTTaa, unless I'm speaking too slowly (I however write it always as इकट्ठा). I've also heard other variations of this word, including the beginning "i" as "e" in "ek" with a shorter "TTha" (almost "Tha") and nonexistent "ə".


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## nineth

I always use ikaTThaa unless I'm speaking very fast.


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## tonyspeed

Based strictly on origin _ikattha_ makes more sense, since I'm assuming there is no _ikh_ or _ekh_ meaning "one". But language usually doesn't make as much sense as we would like.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Do you pronounce this word as ikaTThaa or ikhaTTaa? Which one do you think is the more common variation?


I do it always as _ikaTThaa, ikaTThe_ and I must admit that I've never pondered about the other possibility - it is a very interesting remark! Also while speaking Punjabi, _kaTThaa_ - not *_khaTTaa._


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> I do it always as _ikaTThaa, ikaTThe_ and I must admit that I've never pondered about the other possibility - it is a very interesting remark! Also while speaking Punjabi, _kaTThaa_ - not *_khaTTaa._


 We  prefer _ikhaTTaa_ but as Platts points out both exist, as pointed out above:

H اکٿها इकठा _ikaṭhā_, इकट्ठा _ikaṭṭhā_, adv.=اکهٿا  _ikhaṭṭā_, q.v.

However, he has a lot more under اکهٿا इखट्टा ikhaTTaa :

H اکهٿا इखट्टा ikhaṭṭā [S. एक+स्थितः, rt. स्था], adj. & adv.(=اکٿها ikaṭṭhā), United, collected, assembled or gathered together; together, in one and the same place: in a lump, in the mass or gross, in the aggregate, bodily; simultaneously;—considerably, very much, much:—ikhaṭṭā karnā or kar-lenā, v.t. To collect, get or bring together, gather together, assemble; to amass, accumulate, store, stock, heap or pile up, stack, group; to call together, convoke, convene; to sum up, add up, total; to concentrate, consolidate:—ikhaṭṭā-kar-rakhnā, v.t. To collect, amass, store up, accumulate, treasure up, &c.:—ikhaṭṭā honā, or ho-jānā, v.n. To come together, gather, collect, assemble, congregate, flock, herd, crowd; to be added or summed up:—ikhaṭṭe, adv.=ikhaṭṭā.

So perhaps _ikhaTTaa_  was originally the preferred form.


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## panjabigator

marrish said:


> I do it always as _ikaTThaa, ikaTThe_ and I must admit that I've never pondered about the other possibility - it is a very interesting remark! Also while speaking Punjabi, _kaTThaa_ - not *_khaTTaa._



Same thoughts. Perhaps the aspiration of the "th" encourages the aspiration of the "k?" I forgot the linguisticy term for this type of language change.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I do it always as _ikaTThaa, ikaTThe_ and I must admit that I've never pondered about the other possibility - it is a very interesting remark! Also while speaking Punjabi, _kaTThaa_ - not *_khaTTaa._



In Punjabi, we would be changing the meaning totally, as you of course would know very well.

I have always pronounced the word as "ikaTThaa" for two reasons.

1) Until seeing it written "ikhaTTaa" in Platts the other day, I had always seen it written as "ikaTThaa".

2) I thought "ikhaTTaa" was wrong anyway! And being very particular about my pronunciation, I did not wish to copy "faulty" pronunciation! Now, at last, I can relax but I still can't see myself using "ikhaTTaa"!


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## marrish

2. Me too, I'd hardly say _ikhaTTaa_, but as I see now, this is even more correct! I thought that I had always seen this written as _ikaTThaa_ but I asked some friends who said they didn't know of _ikaTThaa_! I think Faylasoof SaaHib's opinion can make me change my speech pattern.


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## marrish

panjabigator said:


> Same thoughts. Perhaps the aspiration of the "th" encourages the aspiration of the "k?" I forgot the linguisticy term for this type of language change.


Thanks for the confirmation. Interesting thought - but maybe not a case here, since having a look at the etymology as given by Platts baabaa makes me think that the ''s'' in _sthaa _could easily become a _''h''. _So perhaps the aspiration of T should be seen as secondary.


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## BP.

Over a decade ago I pondered over this word and came to the conclusion that what I had picked up in speech i.e. _ik.haTTaa_, was wrong, and changed over to _ikaTT.haa_ or its synonyms. Now this thread has flown right into the face of that assessment!


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Over a decade ago I pondered over this word and came to the conclusion that what I had picked up in speech i.e. _ik.haTTaa_, was wrong, and changed over to _ikaTT.haa_ or its synonyms. Now this thread has flown right into the face of that assessment!



In attempting to answer janaab-i-tonyspeed's query on "log ikaTThaa hu'e", I searched both "Nur-ul-luGhaat" and "Farhang-i-Asafiyyah" and to my utter surprise "ikaTThaa" is n't even mentioned in either of them. Both have "ikhaTTaa"! So, you have been correct all along!!


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## marrish

I've incidentally come across an article in Hindi which discusses the so-called wrong pronunciation of this word by apparently very popular Hindi news presenter, Nidhi Kulpati. Unfortunately this article is no longer available on-line, so I'm copying it below: 



> एनडीटीवी इंडिया की निधि कुलपति,'इखट्टा' नहीं 'इकट्ठा'
> _NDTV iNDiyaa kii Nidhi Kulpati 'ikhaTTaa' nahiiN 'ikaTThaa'
> _निधि कुलपति, कम- से- कम आप तो हिंदी की ऐसी-तैसी मत कीजिये
> _Nidhi Kulpati, kam se kam aap to hiNdii kii aisii taisii mat kiijiye
> _
> निधि कुलपति एनडीटीवी इंडिया की प्रमुख एंकर हैं. दर्शकों के बीच भी उनकी अच्छी पहचान हैं. खबरों को पेश करने की उनकी अपनी शैली है जिसे दर्शक बेहद पसंद करते हैं. भाषा पर उनकी अच्छी पकड़ है और अच्छी हिंदी में वे ख़बरें पढ़ती हैं. उनका उच्चारण भी बेहद उम्दा है.
> _nidhi kulpati NDTV iNDiyaa kii pramukh eNkar haiN. darshakoN ke biich bhii unkii achchhii pahchaan haiN. khabaroN ko pesh karne kii unkii apnii shailii hai jise darshak behad pasaNd karte haiN. bhaaShaa par unkii achchhii pakaR hai aur achchhii hiNdii meN ve xabreN paRhtii haiN. unkaa uchchaaraNR bhii behad umdaa hai.
> _
> लेकिन हिंदी के न्यूज़ चैनलों में कुछ ऐसे शब्द हैं जिसे बड़े - बड़े एंकर भी गलत तरीके से पढ़ते हैं. क्षेत्रीय स्तर पर ये उच्चारण सही हो सकते हैं लेकिन जब हिंदी समाचार चैनलों के लिए भाषा को लेकर अपने - आप जो मानदंड स्थापित हो गए हैं उसमें इन शब्दों का ऐसे उच्चारण अशुद्ध ही माना जाएगा. ऐसी ही एक गलती निधि कुलपति से दो - तीन पहले के एक बुलेटिन में हुई.
> 
> _lekin hiNdii ke nyuuz chainaloN meN kuchh aise shabd haiN jise baRe-baRe eNkar bhii galat tarike se paRhte haiN. kShetriiy star par ye uchchaaraNR sahii ho sakte haiN lekin jab hiNdii samaachaar chainaloN ke lie bhaaShaa ko lekar apne aap jo maandaND sthaapit ho gae haiN usmeN in shabdoN kaa aise uchchaaraNR ashuddh hii maanaa jaaegaa. aisii hii ek galatii nidhi kulpati se do tiin pahle ke ek buleTin meN huii.
> _
> निधि कुलपति ने खबरें पढ़ते हुए कहा - "नरेन्द्र मोदी ने एक बार फिर मुसलमानों को 'इखट्टा' तो कर लिया लेकिन...!" यहाँ उन्होंने 'इकट्ठा' शब्द का उच्चारण 'इखट्टा' किया. शायद वे हमेशा 'इकट्ठा' शब्द का उच्चारण 'इखट्टा'ही करती आयी हैं.* वैसे निधि कुलपति के अलावा कई और न्यूज़ एंकर और रिपोर्टर अमूमन 'इकट्ठा' शब्द का उच्चारण 'इखट्टा' करते हैं. *
> 
> _nidhi kulpati ne khabreN paRhte hue kahaa - ''narendr modii ne ek baar phir musalmaanoN ko ikhaTTaa kar liyaa lekin...!'' yahaaN unhoN ne 'ikaTThaa' shabd kaa uchchaaraNR 'ikhaTTaa' kiyaa. shaayad ve hameshaa 'ikaTThaa' shabd kaa uchchaaraNR 'ikhaTTaa' hii kartii aayii haiN. *vaise nidhi kulpati ke alaavaa kaii aur nyuuz eNkar aur riporTar amuuman 'ikaTThaa' shabd kaa uchchaaraNR 'ikhaTTaa' karte haiN.
> *_[...]
> 
> दरअसल इन शब्दों का गलत उच्चारण इसलिए होता है कि वह लम्बे समय से आदत में रच - बस जाती है. फिर लिखा हुआ इकट्ठा ही क्यों न हो, एंकर उसे 'इखट्टा' ही पढ़ेगा. निधि कुलपति भी इसी कारण 'इकट्ठा' शब्द का उच्चारण 'इखट्टा' करती हैं.
> 
> _dar-asal in shabdoN kaa galat uchchaaraNR islie hotaa hai ki vah lambe samay se aadat meN rach-bas jaatii hai. phir likhaa huaa ikaTThaa hii kyoN na ho, eNkar use 'ikhaTTaa' hii paRhega. nidhi kulpati bhii isii kaaraNR 'ikaTThaa' shabd kaa uchchaaraNR 'ikhaTTaa' kartii haiN.
> 
> _औसत दर्जे का या कोई नया एंकर 'इकट्ठा' शब्द का उच्चारण 'इखट्टा' करता है तो बात समझ में आती है, लेकिन निधि कुलपति जैसी वरिष्ठ एंकर 'इकट्ठा' की जगह 'इखट्टा' कहती हैं तो .............. कम - से - कम उनसे तो भाषा और उसके उच्चारण को लेकर उम्मीद की ही जा सकती है.
> 
> _ausat darje kaa yaa koii nayaa eNkar 'ikaTThaa' shabd kaa uchchaaraNR 'ikhaTTaa' kartaa hai to baat samajh meN aatii hai, lekin nidhi kulpati jaisii variShTh eNkar 'ikaTThaa' kii jagah 'ikhaTTaa' kahtii haiN to ... kam se kam unse to bhaaShaa aur uske uchchaaraNR ko lekar ummiid kii hii jaa saktii hai.
> _



Very interesting comment on this:



> Shashi Kant भाई पुष्कर जी, मैंने तो अभी थोड़ी देर पहले ही सुना. वैसे एनडीटीवी, आजतक, स्टार न्यूज़ और दूसरे चैनलों पर भी *अकसर दिल्ली के/की एंकर 'इकठ्ठा' को 'इखट्टा' बोलते हैं*. मुझे लगता है- निधी जी को इसके लिए घेरा जाना अनुचित होगा. यह शायद दिल्लीवाले पंजाबियों का उच्चारण-दोष है.
> _
> bhaaii puShkar jii, maiN ne to abhii thoRii der pahle hii sunaa. vaise NDTV, aajtak, sTaar nyuuz aur duusre chainaloN par bhii *aksar dillii ke/kii eNkar 'ikaThThaa' ko 'ikhaTTaa' bolte haiN*. mujhe lagtaa hai- nidhii ko iske lie gheraa jaanaa anuchit hogaa. yah shaayad dilliivaale paNjaabiyoN kaa uchchaaraNR-doSh hai.
> _



I think the article is wrong on the account of pointing this out as a mispronunciation. I have quoted it here in order to illustrate the fact that it is also pronounced like this by native Hindi speakers. Every track leads to Delhi.

Of course I cannot agree with the comment as if it were the Punjabi speakers who pronounce this word in this manner, for the reasons mentioned by me earlier in this thread. Apparently not only for Urdu but also for Hindi, speakers find it convenient and easy to accuse Punjabi of each and every language irregularity. _xair, mujhe baa-bunyaad shakk hai yahaaN paNjaabii nahiiN balkeh kisii aur zabaan kaa asar ma3luum hotaa hai!_


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## Qureshpor

Very interesting article. So, it seems Hindi speakers regard "ikaTThaa" as "kosher".

As I said earlier, I have never seen the word written as "ikhaTTaa" in Urdu until I saw this word in the two renowned dictionaries.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Very interesting article. So, it seems Hindi speakers regard "ikaTThaa" as "kosher".
> 
> As I said earlier, I have never seen the word written as "ikhaTTaa" in Urdu until I saw this word in the two renowned dictionaries.



Yes, seemingly they consider 'ikaTThaa' as kosher but in the article itself they wrote still another variety - * ikaThThaa *! I don't know how a human can pronounce it, to be honest.

I saw _ikhaTTaa_ written in a English-Urdu dictionary, but only once, and it was _ikaTThaa_ at another entry.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> I have quoted it here in order to illustrate the fact that it is also pronounced like this by native Hindi speakers.



Of course, it is, and I had already said in the earlier thread on ikaTThaa/ikhaTTaa, that I personally pronounce it as "ikhaTTaa", something which was considered wrong by most forum members at the time.


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