# crostata di marmellata/frutta



## Lebistes82

Per dire crostata di marmellata uso jam tart o c'è qualche espressione particolare?


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## Einstein

There may be other terms, but "jam tart" sounds right, and specific enough, to me!


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## lautaro

Is "jam pie" too wrong?


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## Wobby

It depends... I looked on Google to see what a 'crostata di marmellata' looks like, and to me, it seems like a giant jam tart with a lattice on top, or a treacle tart with jam in instead of treacle. Typically, a 'jam tart' is small and doesn't have a lattice on top. If this is what you are describing, then 'jam tart' is fine. If you are describing the big ones with lattices on, I don't think there is a particular expression (unless the foodies out there can help us out!) apart from saying 'a big/large/etc jam tart'...

'Jam pie' might give people the right idea of what you are talking about, but it's not a commonly used expression. But it could work I guess.


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## You little ripper!

lautaro said:


> Is "jam pie" too wrong?


No, it's not _lautaro_. *Jam tart* is just more commonly used.


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## lautaro

> No, it's not _lautaro_. *Jam tart* is just more commonly used.


 
I see, doh! 
That's why I speake Itañoglish.


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## Lebistes82

Grazie delle pronte risposte


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## RobertdiLondra

To add to the discussion I fully agree :-
una crostata di marmellata is certainly a jam tart (definately not a pie)
Torta di mele is the closest I can find to an apple pie as torta covers a multitude.

I think here in England we generally use "Pie" for a pastry base with a pastry lid and "Tart" when there is no lid. 

Examples : Fruit pie, Apple and blackberry pie, jam tart

Have you tried Cherry Bakewells or the more original Bakewell Tart from the Midlands of England ? My mother in law makes lovely jam tarts (without a pastry top) and lemon tarts (the same base but using lemon curd) at Christmas. Followed by mince pies .......


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## You little ripper!

RobertdiLondra said:


> To add to the discussion I fully agree :-
> una crostata di marmellata is certainly a jam tart (definately not a pie)
> Torta di mele is the closest I can find to an apple pie as torta covers a multitude.
> 
> I think here in England we generally use "Pie" for a pastry base with a pastry lid and "Tart" when there is no lid.
> 
> Examples : Fruit pie, Apple and blackberry pie, jam tart
> 
> Have you tried Cherry Bakewells or the more original Bakewell Tart from the Midlands of England ? My mother in law makes lovely jam tarts (without a pastry top) and lemon tarts (the same base but using lemon curd) at Christmas. Followed by mince pies .......


 Robert, I checked a couple of dictionary definitions for the word *pie,* and these were two of them.

_dish baked in pastry-lined pan *often* with a pastry top_

_a baked dish of savoury or sweet ingredients encased in *or *topped with pastry (Oxford) _

I also googled *jam pie* quickly and saw one image without a top and there were also a few recipes where there was no mention of a top.

But as a general rule I agree with you that *pie* means having a top, and *tart* is without.


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## RobertdiLondra

Charles I knew my post would be questioned for accuracy ! I tried really hard to think if an open tart could ever be called a pie. I failed but I covered my back by inserting the word "generally". I googled jam pie too but that image must be from a foreigner ! I hope the post will help Lautaro to remember the difference.

Generally : A pie has a solid pastry top. A tart doesn't. 

I thought someone would ask what a Bakewell Tart was as I have never seen anything like it outside the UK.


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## Einstein

RobertdiLondra said:


> I tried really hard to think if an open tart could ever be called a pie.


Quiche Lorraine is also called _egg-and-bacon pie_. Also flan, but I wouldn't call it a tart, even though it has no lid. It could be to do with the fact that a tart is sweet... but anyway there's an exception to every rule!


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## You little ripper!

RobertdiLondra said:


> Charles I knew my post would be questioned for accuracy ! I tried really hard to think if an open tart could ever be called a pie. I failed but I covered my back by inserting the word "generally". I googled jam pie too but that image must be from a foreigner ! I hope the post will help Lautaro to remember the difference.
> 
> Generally : A pie has a solid pastry top. A tart doesn't.


Maybe Americans don't have that marked distinction.  



> I thought someone would ask what a Bakewell Tart was as I have never seen anything like it outside the UK


Are these anything like the ones you're refering to, Robert?

Bakewell tart


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## RobertdiLondra

HOHOHO. Just as Lautaro was getting to grips with the "pie top tart not" idea along comes Einstein and blows the theory. Seriously, well done Einstein for finding the exception of the quiche which is neither a pie nor a tart ! 

So now we have :- pie top, tart not, quiche hot (or cold)

Charles - yes those are exactly what I meant. However if you ever go to Bakewell in Derbyshire you will be surprised if you eat a Bakewell Pudding as it doesn't taste anything like a standard Cherry Bakewell.


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## lautaro

Hey guys,
So how with "custard pie"? It is the title of a famous song by Led Zeppelin. 
Is it a pun?


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## ToscanoNYC

Negli USA (o perlomeno nelle grandi città), in moltissimi ristoranti (non necessariamente italiani), forni e pasticcerie si usa ormai il termine "crostata".  La cucina italiana va di moda, si sa (un altro esempio è l'uso della parola "panini", sempre al plurale anche quando si tratta di uno solo, che sta sostituendo "grilled sandwich").  In ogni caso, se si preferisce usare la parola inglese, quella giusta è senza dubbio "tart".  Qui, per esempio: http://www.joyofbaking.com/RaspberryCrostata.html


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## RobertdiLondra

Custard Pie ! Good point Lautaro. Is this an American term ? "Custard Pies" are seen on comedy films being thrown around. However it is a proper term for a type of tart and Led Zeppelin wanted a slice rather than the whole thing in the face. As Einstein says there are always exceptions and indeed I now realise I would refer to a lemon meringue PIE even though it has no top.


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## Einstein

I've never actually seen a custard pie except on comedy films! In Britain the small individual ones are called custard tarts.

Maybe _lemon meringue pie_ is a legitimate term because the lemon filling is covered by a crust of meringue... ?


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## RobertdiLondra

I must tell you what happened to me during my first holiday in Italy. We reached the end of a lovely meal and I ordered _Torta alla Nonna_. It was a beautiful pie packed with fruit which tasted like pear but I wasn't sure. "I must remember the word _Nonna_" I said "so I can look it up in the dictionary to see what they put in the pie". Imagine my surprise when I saw what it was !


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## Wobby

Einstein said:


> I've never actually seen a custard pie except on comedy films! In Britain the small individual ones are called custard tarts.


 
I've eaten custard tarts many times, and we often buy the big one, because you get more for your money, but it is still called a custard tart. However, when we talk of custard tarts, the custard tends to be hard, cooked and have a sprinkle of nutmeg on it, as opposed to the custard pies of comedy films that are whippy and creamy. Maybe it's true that Americans don't have that distinction. But aren't tarts shallower than pies anyway?

I would go with quiche being a flan and leave it at that...


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## Francesco22

ToscanoNYC said:


> In ogni caso, se si preferisce usare la parola inglese, quella giusta è senza dubbio "tart".



Surfing the net, or better googling "jam pie" you can find images of the real Italian crostata, the so called tart with a lattice on top. Probabily, listing desserts on a menu, tart or pie is the same, isn't it?
I think the only difference between them is the lattice on top...


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## CarrieRain

Amazingly, the Italian "CROSTATA" looks like the British "LATTICE CRUST". I'm not sure about the ingredients, I think they may vary a bit, but if you look at Google Images you'll find out.


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## curiosone

Good grief!  Where was I, when this conversation started? (probably busy making a pie ).  Sorry folks, as a "mad baker" (tho' I prefer a pie to a crostata) I must beg to differ with a lot of what I'm reading, here.  I can only speak from an AE point of view, but here are my 2 cents: 

A "pie" is made with with "pasta brisé" and a "crostata" is made with "pasta frolla."  I don't make tarts very often (preferring pie), but a tart crust is more similar to a pasta frolla (because it contains egg yolk and a little sugar - whereas a pie crust  is NOT sweet).  So while you can say "tart" referring to "crostata", pies are totally different.  And they can be sweet or savoury, with a top crust or with a lattice crust, or without any crust (depending on the kind of pie).

1) *Pies with a Top Crust*:  Fruit pies are usually made with a top crust (with slits cut in it, so the steam can escape while baking), or with a lattice crust.  Savoury pies (e.g.: chicken pot pie) are also made with top crusts.
2) *Open-faced pies (with only a bottom crust)*: Custard pies (which include famous pies like pumpkin pie, pecan pie, lemon meringue pie, banana cream pie, key lime pie, chiffon pie, etc) are made without a crust.  Quiches (Lorraine or not) are also in this (open-faced) category, and I've always called them "quiches" (in Italian:  torta salata).   I also make open-faced pies where the crust is baked without any filling, then filled with cooked (and/or fresh) fruit or a cream (pudding) cookekd on the stove-top.
3) *Lattice tops* are simply a variation of the pie with a top crust.  Mincemeat pies typically have a lattice top, but (as already stated) fruit pies are often made this way, as the fruit cooking inside the crust lets off a lot of steam, and lattice tops are also pretty.

Thus said, I'd likely call a "crostata" a "crostata" (keep the name in Italian, as it's an Italian specialty), or explain it's a sort of tart - tho' the crusts are different, as a tart crust doesn't usually contain baking powder, and a crostata doesn't have to be rolled out (it doesn't need to be thin), but can be pressed into the pan - which doesn't need to have the same shape as that of a pie pan, anyway.
_
And don't get me started on "crumb crusts," or the mods might want us to start another thread...

[La prima volta che ho assaggiato una crostata alla fru__tta, ho chiesto:  "Ma dov'è la frutta?" _ _] _


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## Einstein

> A "pie" is made with with "pasta brisé" and a "crostata" is made with "pasta frolla."


Yes, this is a fundamental difference.

Another problem that I've had in translating is that "pie" and "cake" are both "torta". So do we translate "torta di mele" as "apple pie" or "apple cake"?


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## curiosone

Pies and Cakes are NOT the same thing.  A "Torta di Mela" is an apple cake - which has nothing in common with an "apple pie" (which I'd probably translate as "Crostata alla Mela" o meglio "Pie alla mela" o "Frutta in crosta").  And I might add that a "torta di mela" is not made with "pasta frolla" (like a crostata), but is a real cake.

_Edit: Where I grew up, we had a Germantown, so we'd probably call it an "apple kuchen."_


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## Einstein

curiosone said:


> Pies and Cakes are NOT the same thing.  A "Torta di Mela" is an apple cake - which has nothing in common with an "apple pie" (which I'd probably translate as "Crostata alla Mela" o meglio "Pie alla mela" o "Frutta in crosta").  And I might add that a "torta di mela" is not made with "pasta frolla" (like a crostata), but is a real cake.


You're preaching to the converted! The problem is not in translating from English to Italian but the other way. We have the ubiquitous word "torta", which the Italians are perfectly capable of using for both a pie and a cake and you need a photo to know how to translate it.


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## curiosone

Einstein said:


> You're preaching to the converted! The problem is not in translating from English to Italian but the other way. We have the ubiquitous word "torta", which the Italians are perfectly capable of using for both a pie and a cake and you need a photo to know how to translate it.



I realize Italians tend to generalize (with "torta"), but I rarely let them... 
At most I'll let them say "dolce" or "dessert" - if they wish to speak in general.


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## alicip

Ciao a tutti. 
Una "*torta di mele*" è decisamente una "*apple cake*". 
Una "*crostata di mele*" è sicuramente una "*apple tart*".
Ma allora, una "*apple pie*" cos'è? 
Tutti i dizionari che ho consultato (Hazon-Garzanti, Ragazzini, l'Oxford-Paravia, Sansoni, Hoepli) la traducono con: "*torta di mele*". 
Non sarebbe meglio dire che la "*apple pie*" è una "*torta di mele ripiena*"?

P.S: Solo una mia opinione per non confonderci mentre traduciamo.


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## curiosone

Ciao alicip 
Spiegami esattamente come viene fatta la tua "crostata di mele," e ti darò la risposta.  Se trattasi di ricetta italiana (pasta frolla + mele), mia suocera la chiamava comunque "torta di mele," in quanto era abbastanza soffice (e conteneva lievito).  Una crosta da "tart" non contiene lievito.   E' più sottile, e si riempie.  

La "apple pie" può quindi tradursi in "crostata di mele", anche se in realtà è una "frutta in crosta" (vedi mio post #24), fatta con pasta brisé (e non pasta frolla).  Personalmente l'ho chiamo una "crostata di mele all'americana" per evitare equivoci.
_
[Tutto questo parlare di "pasta brisé" mi fa venire voglia di farne - comunque non con quella che si trova ora (già pronta) nei supermercati italiani, che non è degna di chiamarsi tale.  Contattatemi privatamente, se volete una ricetta facile facile per quella vera!]_


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## london calling

_Apple pie_ (ecco la classica ricetta inglese, _'proper' apple pie_!) per me non si può tradurre con _crostata di mele_ (= apple tart) , perché la crostata non viene ricoperta con la pasta. E sì, so che si traduce con _torta di mele_, ma così facendo si confonde con la _apple cake_ , una torta soffice con pezzi di mela dentro (tipo questa) che non viene preparata utilizzando la pasta. _Torta di mele ripiena_ è una possibilità ma, a dir la verità io tendo ad utilizzare la dicitura inglese: _apple pie_.


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## Paulfromitaly

Fruit pies don't really belong to the traditional Italian cuisine (even less so meat pies), that's probably why I don't think we have the right term for them.


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Fruit pies don't really belong to the traditional Italian cuisine (even less so meat pies), that's probably why I don't think we have the right term for them.


True....torta di carne?!


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> True....torta di carne?!



It sounds disgusting 
I guess some people call them "meat pies" also in Italian or "pasticcio".


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> It sounds disgusting
> I guess some people call them "meat pies" also in Italian or "pasticcio".


E' vero, si dice 'pasticcio di carne'. Ma 'pasticcio di mele' no! Mi sta venendo mal di testa......


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## alicip

london calling said:


> _Apple pie_ (ecco la classica ricetta inglese, _'proper' apple pie_!) per me *non si può tradurre *con _crostata di mele_ (= apple tart) , perché la crostata non viene ricoperta con la pasta. E sì, so che si traduce con _torta di mele_, ma così facendo si confonde con la _apple cake_ , una torta soffice con pezzi di mela dentro (tipo questa) che non viene preparata utilizzando la pasta. _Torta di mele ripiena_ è una possibilità ma, a dir la verità io tendo ad utilizzare la *dicitura inglese* : _apple pie_.



In mancanza di terminologia italiana precisa anch'io preferisco lasciare la dicitura inglese "*apple pie*". 
Altre volte uso la dicitura "*torta di mele ripiena*" oppure "*pasticcio di mele*". 
Non sarebbe un problema tradurre il termine in altre lingue (spagnolo, romeno, ecc.) le quali hanno un termine specifico per "pie". 
http://www.dailygreen.it/green-life/ricette/item/pasticcio-di-mele.html


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> E' vero, si dice 'pasticcio di carne'. Ma 'pasticcio di mele' no! Mi sta venendo mal di testa......



Ho cercato le immagini di "pasticcio di mele" ma ben poche hanno l'aspetto di una apple pie..Credo che anche il concetto di "pasticcio" sia molto vago in italiano tanto è vero che anche per "pasticcio di carne" si trovano immagini di piatti che sembrano più Gulash che meat pie.


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## curiosone

Since the original American colonists were often of English origin, it doesn't surprise me that the English would have a similar recipe to the American one.  The "pasta brisé" looks about the same (although my recipe adds a bit more salt - about half a teaspoon for a 2-crust pie), but making the "classic American pie" (also known as "*la torta di Nonna Papera*"  ) usually doesn't involve stewing the apples before putting them in the crust, but rather in tossing the cut apple slices with sugar, a little flour, lemon juice and a few spices, then cooking the apples inside the crust (which is why it's important to cut vents into the top crust).  Here are a few pics:  https://www.google.it/search?q=amer...MGobusgb0hoDQDw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=636

...and here are a couple of recipes - one in English:  http://www.marthastewart.com/344255/old-fashioned-apple-pie
...and one in Italian:  http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Apple-Pie.html

All I can add is that my grandmother taught me NOT to work the crust with my hands, but to touch it as little as possible (to keep it flaky).  And (in my collection of recipes) I do actually have one that stews the apples before putting them in the crust, but they're stewed in sherry (yum!).  Regarding choice of apples, I don't know about Bramley apples, and I usually prefer Golden Delicious apples (easy to find, and a good all-round apple for cooking) to Granny Smith apples (which I can't find in Italy anyway).  I'm sure "renette" apples (mentioned in the Italian recipe) would also be good - if they're in season.  However I can also add that I have cookbooks with pages dedicated to discussing what kind of apple works best for cooking, but the general consensus is that you need a tart apple, and preferably one that will keep its shape.

But (returning to translation - and forgive me for digressing on a topic that empassions me - my friends call me "Nonna Papera"  ) I do actually agree with LC that "apple pie" (kept in English) works, but I like "torta di Nonna Papera" better.


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## alicip

curiosone said:


> Since the original American colonists were often of English origin, it doesn't surprise me that the English would have a similar recipe to the American one.  The "pasta brisé" looks about the same (although my recipe adds a bit more salt - about half a teaspoon for a 2-crust pie), but making the "classic American pie" (also known as "*la torta di Nonna Papera*"  ) usually doesn't involve stewing the apples before putting them in the crust, but rather in tossing the cut apple slices with sugar, a little flour, lemon juice and a few spices, then cooking the apples inside the crust (which is why it's important to cut vents into the top crust).  Here are a few pics:  https://www.google.it/search?q=amer...MGobusgb0hoDQDw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=636
> 
> ...and here are a couple of recipes - one in English:  http://www.marthastewart.com/344255/old-fashioned-apple-pie
> ...and one in Italian:  http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Apple-Pie.html
> 
> All I can add is that my grandmother taught me NOT to work the crust with my hands, but to touch it as little as possible (to keep it flaky).  And (in my collection of recipes) I do actually have one that stews the apples before putting them in the crust, but they're stewed in sherry (yum!).  Regarding choice of apples, I don't know about Bramley apples, and I usually prefer Golden Delicious apples (easy to find, and a good all-round apple for cooking) to Granny Smith apples (which I can't find in Italy anyway).  I'm sure "renette" apples (mentioned in the Italian recipe) would also be good - if they're in season.  However I can also add that I have cookbooks with pages dedicated to discussing what kind of apple works best for cooking, but the general consensus is that you need a tart apple, and preferably one that will keep its shape.
> 
> But (returning to translation - and forgive me for digressing on a topic that empassions me - my friends call me "Nonna Papera"  ) I do actually agree with LC that "apple pie" (kept in English) works, but I like  *"torta di Nonna Papera"*  better.



Anche a me piace, ma metterei anche le *mele *in mezzo (visto che ho una voglia pazza di "apple pie"): "* Torta di mele di Nonna Papera*". 
P.S. - La ricetta è offerta dalla Disney Italia. Yum-yum! Deliziosa.


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## london calling

curiosone said:


> Since the original American colonists were often of English origin, it doesn't surprise me that the English would have a similar recipe to the American one.  .........making the "classic American pie" (also known as "*la torta di nonna papera*"  ) usually doesn't involve stewing the apples before putting them in the crust, but rather in tossing the cut apple slices with sugar, a little flour, lemon juice and a few spices, then cooking the apples inside the crust (which is why it's important to cut vents into the top crust). *That's how I was taught to make it at school, actually. *
> All I can add is that my grandmother taught me NOT to work the crust with my hands, but to touch it as little as possible (to keep it flaky). *I was taught the same thing.*  I don't know about Bramley apples *(excellent British cooking apples)* and I usually prefer Golden Delicious apples ( *we'll have to agree to disagree on that one!)* to Granny Smith apples ( *I can get them  in both those big French hypermarlets which I'm not allowed to call by name here).*.  I'm sure "renette" apples (mentioned in the Italian recipe) would also be good - if they're in season. .....................the general consensus is that you need a tart apple, and preferably one that will keep its shape. *Bramleys, which you can't get over here. I pick them off my mum's tree in London and bring them back with me. *
> 
> I do actually agree with LC that "apple pie" (kept in English) works, but I like "torta di nonna papera" better.


My husband also used to say 'la torta di nonna papera', but that of course refers to the classic American apple pie, not the British one. I do not therefore make _torte di nonna papera_, I make _apple pies._


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## alicip

london calling said:


> My husband also used to say 'la torta di nonna papera', but that of course refers to the classic American apple pie, not the British one. I do not therefore make _torte di nonna papera_, I make _apple pies._



Ho sentito da fonti sicure che per fare una vera "apple pie" (o almeno per avvicinarsi molto alla vera "apple pie"), visto che in Italia le mele *Bramley *non si trovano, i maestri culinari usano metà mele *Renette *e metà mele *Granny Smith*. Ora proverò anch'io a farla in questa maniera sabato o domenica poi vi dirò com'è venuta.


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## curiosone

alicip said:


> Anche a me piace, ma metterei anche le *mele *in mezzo (visto che ho una voglia pazza di "apple pie"): "* Torta di mele di Nonna Papera*".
> P.S. - La ricetta è offerta dalla Disney Italia. Yum-yum! Deliziosa.



It's fine to specify "alle mele" if we're talking about apple pie, but there are many different kinds of fruit pie (I'm partial to cherry pie and peach pie, myself), and the original discussion was about "crostata alla frutta" (not necessarily "alla mela"), so I stand by "*la* *torta di Nonna Papera*" - after which we can always insert the kind of fruit we're talking about (as you suggested).

By the way, I took a look at the Disney recipe you kindly supplied.  I'll take your word for it if it tastes good, but (horror of horrors!  ) it's made with "pasta frolla"!  Which is (to supply an Italian equivalent) like using Chinese rice noodles to make "pasta asciutta."  It simply isn't the same thing.

With reference to LC's post, I really think we're talking about the same basic dessert, so I fail to see why you feel the need to distinguish between "British" and "American" in translation.  
Regarding choice of apples, I'm sure Bramleys are delicious and perfect.  However only ONE of the four American cookbooks I consulted (not on-line, or I'd have shared a recipe I actually use) even mentioned "Granny Smith" apples as an apple for pies (personally I think they're too juicy, and in fact the author mentioning them said she added extra cornstarch when she used Grannies - and that she preferred other kinds, if she was able to find them).  Anyway there are no French hypermarkets in my area.  All of the books did specify "firm-fleshed, tart apples" (slightly green) , and each mentioned various names of particular types they thought were good (but where am I supposed to find Baldwins or Greenings or Northern Spies?   I can't even find those in Kentucky).  The Fanny Farmer (ex Boston Cooking School) cookbook suggests "Yellow or Red Delicious" or "Rome Beauty" or "Cortland" as my best bet - out of which the "Delicious" is the only one I can find, and it works just fine.  They might have less flavour (than a Bramley), but lemon juice and cinnamon and nutmeg perk them up.


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