# female for nationalities



## Setwale_Charm

I am wondering if in Turkish *Alman* (or any other name of nationality for that matter) applies to primarily males or there is some way to say "eine Deutsche" - A Germanwoman?


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## avok

No, "Alman" is used for either a man or a woman. Turkish is gender-free


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## Setwale_Charm

But is there any way to emphasize that a woman is being spoken of?


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## avok

Hmmm,  

Alman kadın   (a german woman) there is no other way than that


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## Setwale_Charm

Tesekkür ederim, avok.


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## Chazzwozzer

In informal Turkish, however, some people use _Olga _to call any German woman.


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## Setwale_Charm

Chazzwozzer said:


> In informal Turkish, however, some people use _Olga _to call any German woman.


 
Is this in any way pejorative?


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## Chazzwozzer

Setwale_Charm said:


> Is this in any way pejorative?


Depends on how you see it. To me, it's not that pejorative.

By the way, for a German woman, it's _Helga_, not _Olga_. _Olga _is for Russian females. Sorry.


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## Setwale_Charm

Chazzwozzer said:


> Depends on how you see it. To me, it's not that pejorative.
> 
> By the way, for a German woman, it's _Helga_, not _Olga_. _Olga _is for Russian females. Sorry.


 

I thought, the most common (and quite pejorative) name for Russian women was Nataşa


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## Chazzwozzer

Setwale_Charm said:


> I thought, the most common (and quite pejorative) name for Russian women was Nataşa


_Nataşa _necessarily refers to Russian prostitues.


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## Spectre scolaire

Chazzwozzer said:


> Nataşa necessarily refers to Russian prostitues.


 It does indeed. 

Do we know when and where this metonym appeared in Turkish? Obviously it must have been after the Wall came crumbling down. Perhaps a journalist just launched this name because it is a widespread diminutive form of a very common Russian name, Natalya (Наталья)? 

I have a second cousin in Russia (and daughters of second and third cousins) for whom I feel sorry if they should happen to visit the Antalya area where lots of _nat__aşalar_ [sic?] are ...working. 
​


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## Setwale_Charm

Spectre scolaire said:


> It does indeed.
> 
> Do we know when and where this metonym appeared in Turkish? Obviously it must have been after the Wall came crumbling down. Perhaps a journalist just launched this name because it is a widespread diminutive form of a very common Russian name, Natalya (Наталья)?
> 
> I have a second cousin in Russia (and daughters of second and third cousins) for whom I feel sorry if they should happen to visit the Antalya area where lots of _nat__aşalar_ [sic?] are ...working.
> 
> ​


 
Are they in danger of being mistreated? 
I think, the inflow of prostitutes just popularised the most common name of Russian women.. though I would not say that Natalya is the most common


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## Chazzwozzer

Spectre scolaire said:


> It does indeed.
> 
> Do we know when and where this metonym appeared in Turkish? Obviously it must have been after the Wall came crumbling down. Perhaps a journalist just launched this name because it is a widespread diminutive form of a very common Russian name, Natalya (Наталья)?


Isn't _Nataşa _a diminutive form of _Anastasia_?


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## Setwale_Charm

No, of Natalya or Natalia. The diminutive of Anastasia is Nastya or Asya.


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## ukuca

I recall that there was a song named "Sensin Nataşa" as a reaction to some Turkish men assuming every Russian girl as a prostitude and naming them pejoratively


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## Spectre scolaire

That’s an interesting hint! -but a rather silly song... 

When was it produced, I wonder?
​*PS*: “King” in Turkish is _kıral_ (a Slavic word), and “queen” is _kıraliçe_, but the suffix -içe is not productive. You can’t say *Almaniçe.


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## avok

Spectre scolaire said:


> ​*PS*: “King” in Turkish is _kral_(a Slavic word), and “queen” is _kraliçe_, but the suffix -içe is not productive. You can’t say *Almaniçe.


But we have Patroniçe (vs Patron). Is "içe" a Slavic suffix ??



Setwale_Charm said:


> ...though I would not say that Natalya is the most common


 
Maybe not Natalya but the diminutive form Nataşa is or must be or is supposed to be... otherwise we would not know about the name



Spectre scolaire said:


> I have a second cousin in Russia (and daughters of second and third cousins) for whom I feel sorry if they should happen to visit the Antalya area where lots of _Nat__aşalar_ [sic?] are ...


 



Chazzwozzer said:


> _Nataşa _necessarily refers to Russian prostitues.


 
...And Eastern European ones i.e. Romanians who are not even slavic. (assuming Nataşa is slavic)


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## Spectre scolaire

avok said:


> But we have Patroniçe (vs Patron). Is "içe" a Slavic suffix ??


 You’re right! I didn’t think of that word. Indeed, _patroniçe _could theoretically replace kadın yönetici, “female [lit.: woman] manager” - to the extent that such a precision is really needed; _patron_ also means a “female boss”.

But – and there is a big “but”... 

I have this nasty feeling of something ironic, if not outright derogatory, being linked to _patroniçe_. If I am right, there is no hope of such a replacement any time soon.

About the suffix, I would ask you to reread my posting #16. 
 ​
*PS*: On request from #20, meaning that _kıral_ is definitely a Slavic word in Turkish whereas I didn’t take any stance on the origin of the suffix –içe.  Now, _dudasd_ (#21) has solved the problem.


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## dudasd

What about older suffixes, like Persian -_e_ in _müdüre_? None of them survived in words that describe one's nationality? At least I couldn't find any. But still I find interesting this melting of Slavic and Persian female suffixes, only now I realized how -_ica_ (read: -itsa) became 
-_içe. _


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## avok

Spectre scolaire said:


> You’re right! I didn’t think of that word. Indeed, _patroniçe _could theoretically replace kadın yönetici, “female [lit.: woman] manager” - to the extent that such a precision is really needed; _patron_ also means a “female boss”.
> 
> But – and there is a big “but”...
> 
> I have this nasty feeling of something ironic, if not outright derogatory, being linked to _patroniçe_. If I am right, there is no hope of such a replacement any time soon.
> 
> About the suffix, I would ask you to reread my posting #16.
> 
> ​


 
Hei,

Patroniçe is used for hmmmm the female version of "Godfather" ( the mafia etc..) or a very powerful business-woman who happens to be a boss as well.

I re-read your post but I did not understand anything more about the origin of the suffix "içe". Is "Kraliçe" a slavic word??? Or just the "Kral" part is Slavic??? İçe is not productive, I know that


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## dudasd

"Kral" (with variations in different Slavic languages) is Slavic word for king (borrowed long ago from the west, but that story is off topic here). "Kral(j)ica" (read: kralyitsa) is "queen". Suffix -ica (for creating female gender and female diminutives) is very productive in Slavic languages even nowadays.


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