# Swedish: the pronunciation of sju



## jinmin1988

I have looked up sju in several dictionaries and found that the pronunciation of sju sounds like /hu:/, but its phonetic symbol is /sju:/.
I wonder what is correct? Does /sj/ sounds like /h/?


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## Södertjej

Very typically Swedish sound, it's also been discussed in some previous thread.

There's a variety where sj is pronounced sh. The other one is difficult to describe in words as I haven't heard it in other languages so I can't make comparisons but you can listen to it in Lexin. It's not hu, though.


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## Tuomas

Södertjej said:


> The other one is difficult to describe in words as I haven't heard it in other languages



I'm not swedish so this might be totally wrong, but: What about the "h" in the arabic name "Ahmed"?


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## Södertjej

Found it. 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=802479

I don't speak Arab so I've no idea if the sound is similar or not, and you didn't provide a phonetical transcription so I can't tell but I see the h is written after the A and before the M and I personally find it very difficult to pronounce sj there.


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## hanne

Tuomas said:


> I'm not swedish so this might be totally wrong, but: What about the "h" in the arabic name "Ahmed"?


It's certainly not the same, and in my opinion it's not very close either.

To me, the Swedish sj- sounds more like an h followed by/mixed with a j. But I don't think it's possible to describe this one if you don't know it, you need to hear it (probably many times) in order to learn it.


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## Wilma_Sweden

I don't speak any Arab either. The problem with the sj- sound is that it is not pronounced the same way in all Swedish dialects. The general confusion is evident from the thread Södertjej mentioned above, but do have a look at it, all the same!

I usually recommend learners to use the English /sh/ sound in shoe, sheep, because it's close enough to make yourself understood.


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## basslop

The Swedish way of pronouncing *sj* is very noticeable, at least for us Norwegians who, have the same pronunciation as the *sh* in English, *sch* in German etc. I am just curious about: I interpret Södertjej's answer that there might be geographical differences in the pronunciation in Swedish. Is that correct? If that's the case, could it be that the pronounciation in the dialects along the Norwegian boarder, Västra Värmland for instance, is closer to the Norwegian pronunciation?


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## Södertjej

I think there's info about it on the linked thread.


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## basslop

Södertjej said:


> I think there's info about it on the linked thread.



Takkar, Södertjej! Just what I was looking for.


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## cocuyo

The variation is considerable. When I was a kid I pronounced it like _sh_ in English, which was frowned at and regarded incorrect in Stockholm where I lived. After spending a summer in the countryside in Blekinge my pronunciation had changed drastically. The dialect spoken in the place where I was had a very coarse sound, resembling German _Ach-Laut_ or how _G_ is pronounced in Dutch. Now I use the more typical Swedish sound that resembles how _J_ is pronounced in Spanish of the Americas, a softer _jota_ than in the peninsula.


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## Södertjej

cocuyo said:


> Now I use the more typical Swedish sound that resembles how _J_ is pronounced in Spanish of the Americas, a softer _jota_ than in the peninsula.


I beg to differ, the j pronounced in Spanish speaking America (same one on the Canary Islands and certain parts of Andalusia btw) is closer to an English h, than a Swedish sj. In Swedish you actually have h and sj, so the Spanish comparison doesn't quite work. Spanish speakers of all countries do have problems with sj.


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## hanne

Just out of curiosity: Are there any foreigners who _don't_ have a problem pronouncing that sj-?


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## cocuyo

It's not easy, I did write _resembles_, because they are not exactly the same, but very close. My wife, from Santiago de Cuba, certainly cannot pronounce _sju_ or _sjukhus_, but it is the vowel that she stumbles upon, not the sj- sound, which is very much like the one of her j.


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## Södertjej

What about h then? If a Spanish j sounds closer to a Swedish h, it can't possibly work for sj too. It may be that your wife's got a good ear and she's managed to get the sj sound quite quickly.



hanne said:


> Just out of curiosity: Are there any foreigners who _don't_ have a problem pronouncing that sj-?


Probably not! Which doesn't mean they can't eventually get it.


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## jinmin1988

> The actual sound is between 'sh' and the German ch in 'ich'. Try saying 'sh' with your tongue further back and your lips rounded.


 
I wonder if "Try saying 'sh' with your tongue further back and your lips rounded." is correct to pronounce "sj" words in Swedish, as I found my mouth was very uncomfortable and my saliva was spitting all around. However, I heard my voice seems similar to "sj" pronunciation.


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## Södertjej

Have you seen the other thread  Jinmin? Some suggestions are give about how to pronounce it. 

Anyway it's impossible to describe a sound in writing because we can't hear you an suggest what you should change. Just remember that sj pronounced as sh is perfectly acceptable, so it's a safe alternative.


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## Ben Jamin

hanne said:


> Just out of curiosity: Are there any foreigners who _don't_ have a problem pronouncing that sj-?


 
I live in Norway, and when I am in Sweden I pronounce the Swedish words with sj the same way as the Norwegians pronounce their sj and rs (and Germans their sch). (The English sh is distinctly different, pronounced much more close to the teeth). As far as I have noticed the Swedish use a great variety of pronouncing of the sj sound. Some of them are close to the Norwegian variant, but some pronounce the Retroflex sh. It means that the tip of the tongue is reverted (folded) so that it is directed backwards, sometimes close to the larynx. This is probably the pronounciation Jinmin writes about describing it as close to h. By the way, this is the very own sound of the Mandarin, written as Zh in Pinyin.


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## Södertjej

Ben Jamin said:


> It means that the tip of the tongue is reverted (folded) so that it is directed backwards, sometimes close to the larynx.


Not really, it's the back of your tongue that goes up and backwards, the tip  doesn't.


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## jinmin1988

> By the way, this is the very own sound of the Mandarin, written as Zh in Pinyin. --by Ben Jamin


it pronounces very similar to dr in drive in English, in my opinion.


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## cocuyo

I have no idea of how Chinese may perceive or pronounce dr in drive, but neither British nor American English has a similar sound there in my opinion. 

I think listening carefully and extensively will resolve the problem. If you acquire ljudböcker/talböcker and their printed counterparts, listen and imitate, you will eventually get it. Discussing pronuciation in a text medium adds confusion and does not seem fruitful to me. 

Using the English sh sound however will be OK, and there are many Swedes that actually do so, so it's a safe bet. There is a variety of sounds for sj, and one of them is the same as sh in English. It does not sound weird to use it.


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## hanne

cocuyo said:


> I think listening carefully and extensively will resolve the problem. If you acquire ljudböcker/talböcker and their printed counterparts, listen and imitate, you will eventually get it.


This is drifting off topic, but I don't agree. There are some differences you won't hear no matter how often you listen, because you don't notice the distinction. (unless you have a particularly well-trained ear)
But it might get you some of the way. Ultimately, I think the only way to _really_ get it is face to face interaction with a good speaker.

And I agree with you Södertjej and cocuyo that discussing sound in a text-based forum will not lead us anywhere.


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## Södertjej

hanne said:


> There are some differences you won't hear no matter how often you listen, because you don't notice the distinction.


And I agree with you on this. This is specially true when you have to produce a sound that doesn't exist in your native language.

A fun (and over the top) example of this is Fernando Torres' new Pepsi ad, where he can't pronounce the second p so he just says Pesi (in the Spanish version he ends up saying "mate, I'm from Fuenlabrada and I say Pesi).


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## cocuyo

Södertjej said:


> A fun (and over the top) example of this is Fernando Torres' new Pepsi ad, where he can't pronounce the second p so he just says Pesi (in the Spanish version he ends up saying "mate, I'm from Fuenlabrada and I say Pesi).



I can relate to that. My wife cannot say pepsi, she says "pecsi". It is one of her favourite beverages. But I do think that it is possible to reproduce sounds that do not exist in your own language. I had a hard time with the unaspirated explosives in Dutch, and also the gloctalised sounds in Quechua, they're maybe as hard as the click sound in some South African dialect, but eventually, they can be learned. And I agree, that at first I did not hear the difference between an aspirated and an unaspirated explosive sound, but with time I could hear the difference, and when I could hear it, I could also reproduce it. I think it is like the inability of some Spanish speakers to hear the difference between B and V. As it does not mean anything to them, they never cared about it, but when it carries the meaning of what you say, it becomes important.


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## Södertjej

cocuyo said:


> But I do think that it is possible to reproduce sounds that do not exist in your own language.


No one said that. All humans have the same "tools" to produce sounds. But learning to do that _by reading _about it is certainly extremely difficult and almost impossible in some cases. If you find it difficult to detect very subtle sounds you're not familiar with, you won't do that by reading about them unless you're an expert in phonetics.


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## Ben Jamin

jinmin1988 said:


> I have looked up sju in several dictionaries and found that the pronunciation of sju sounds like /hu:/, but its phonetic symbol is /sju:/.
> I wonder what is correct? Does /sj/ sounds like /h/?


 
I can recommend following web pages that can help:

Swedish phonology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology
 
The sje sound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
 
IPA sounds http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html


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## Ben Jamin

Ben Jamin said:


> I By the way, this is the very own sound of the Mandarin, written as Zh in Pinyin.


 
Sorry, I made a mistake in what I wrote here. It should be: the sound denoted in Pinyin as *sh* corresponds very well to the Swedish sj, as pronounced by speakers from many regions of Sweden. The IPA symbol of this sound is: ʂ. 


In southern Sweden, according to Wikipedia, a variant of voiceless uvular fricative [χ] is used for sj. It's here that we come close to the h transcription.


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## jinmin1988

> I can recommend following web pages that can help:
> 
> Swedish phonology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology
> 
> The sje sound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative
> 
> IPA sounds http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/chapter1.html


 
Thank you, Ben. They are veally helpful.


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## Wilma_Sweden

I think by now that we have enough material on the pronunciation of the 'sj' sound. 

I am closing this thread to avoid further confusion.

/Wilma
Moderator


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