# Slovak: výučba, vyučovanie a učenie (sa)



## jarabina

I would like to ask any Slovak speakers (with large doses of patience!) to help me pin down the differences in the meaning of *výučba*, *vyučovanie* a *učenie (sa)*.

This is how I understand them:

1. *výučba *- this one seems to be clearest for me. I understand it to mean teaching a course i.e. the focus is on the course and not the teaching process. So language schools offer  *výučba jazykov *(language teaching). 

2. *učenie *refers to learning and not teaching (hence, it is from the learner's rather than the teacher's perspective) and can be used to describe methods of learning e.g. _interaktívne učenie_. It it distinct from teaching since you can also have _interaktívne vyučovanie_ (interactive teaching - referring to the method of teaching rather than learning).

4. *učenie sa *must also refer to learning. One example I found is _Správa o stave a úrovni vyučovania a učenia sa vo vybraných odboroch v základných umeleckých školách v školskom roku 2008/2009 v SR_. But in all honesty I can feel no difference between  *učenia* and* učenia sa*. Does *sa* just emphasise the learning in contrast to the teaching? Would it be possible to miss out the *sa* without changing the meaning? 

5. *vyučovanie* I had thought this referred specifically to the teaching process, but I have encountered numerous examples of learning being translated as *vyučovanie*, which has left me totally confused. The only possible conclusion I can come to is that *vyučovanie *in fact contains within it two meanings: 1. the teaching process as seen through the eyes of the teacher and to be contrasted with *učenie *(and*učenie **sa*) which is from the pupil's perspective; 2. the teaching/learning process but seen neither through the eyes of the teacher nor the eyes of the pupil but as the general process itself (English does not make this distinction unless we consider education as a possible translation, but it doesn't refer specifically to the process and is better translated by vzdelávanie [aargh just found this Formálne vzdelávanie („formal learning“) !!!]). 

Here are some of the contrasting examples I found.

*1.Vyučovanie* cudzích jazykov by sa malo začať v čo najnižšom veku, pretože *učenie* prebieha rýchlejšie a vo väčšom rozsahu.
Language *learning* should begin as early as possible because this  makes it easier for them to _learn_ the language faster and more  comprehensively. (Nice example as it contains both words translated as learning.)

2.Učebná pomôcka je akákoľvek pomôcka určená výlučne na *vyučovanie* alebo odborný výcvik, predovšetkým modely, nástroje, prístroje a stroje.
*Teaching* aid means any aid intended for the sole purpose of *teaching* or vocational training, and in particular models, instruments, apparatus and machines.

3.Hoci predmetné opatrenia môžu v konečnom dôsledku podporovať *vyučovanie* a šírenie talianskeho jazyka...
Nonetheless, despite the fact that those measures might as a last  resort ultimately favour *learning *or the diffusion of the Italian  language and culture

Apologies for the length and I welcome all thoughts. Thanks.


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## monalisa!

Hi jarabina,  here is my contribution (as a learner) for what is worth,
*
výučba*, *vyučovanie* = teaching (vyucovanie is : teaching in progress, the teaching process, or in general (po vyučovanì =) school , lessons), 
(*výučba,* -y _ž. zastar. vyučovanie SSJ) besides being dated , _is rather _výchova_ = practical, actual education , I think, : _lessons, class, schooling, practice_)*
učenie=  *learning _process_, (also  teaching[s] / heritage : Plato's... etc))*
učenie sa*. i_ndividual _learning _(by a student)_
*učebný*_príd. m._ týkajúci sa *vyučovania/ učenia (*KSSJ):, it refers* both *to teaching_ and_ learning
*vzdelávanie := *education (rozvinútie, vypestovanie v niekom rozumové schopnosti) (SSJ) or teaching by courses (Akademia vzdelavania)


*1.Vyučovanie* cudzích jazykov by sa malo začať v čo najnižšom veku, pretože *učenie* prebieha rýchlejšie a vo väčšom rozsahu.
Language *learning* teaching should begin as early as possible because this  makes it easier for them to _learn_ as the process of learning a language is faster and more

2.Učebná pomôcka je akákoľvek pomôcka určená výlučne na *vyučovanie* alebo odborný výcvik, predovšetkým modely, nástroje, prístroje a stroje.
*Teaching* /* learning *aid means any aid intended for the sole purpose of *teaching/learning *or technical training, and in particular models, instruments, apparatus and machines.

3.Hoci predmetné opatrenia môžu v konečnom dôsledku podporovať *vyučovanie* a šírenie talianskeho jazyka...
Nonetheless, despite the fact that those measures might as a last  resort ultimately favour *learning * the teaching or the diffusion of the Italian  language and culture


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## jarabina

Hi Monalisa,

Thanks for your comments - much appreciated.

I'm not quite sure I understand your 'corrections/additions' to the sample translations I found. In number 2 you have put forward slashes  





> *Teaching* /* learning *aid means any aid intended for the sole purpose of *teaching/learning*


 but not in numbers 1 and 3. Does that mean you think your corrections are preferable in 1 and 3 and optional in 2?

I personally suspect that 2 and 3 are translations from English and 1 is from Slovak. I think that learning is a poor translation of number 1. I personally have great difficulties with learning here, since as a teacher I'm well aware that we have total control over the teaching, but ultimately the learning is down to the student. But it's interesting that the (presumably Slovak translator?) chose learning over teaching and I wonder why that is? The distinction in English between teaching and learning is very sharp (for me, at least).

If we assume that 2 and 3 are translations from English, do you think učenie (sa) could be used instead of vyučovanie?



> *učenie=  *learning _process_, (also  teaching/ heritage : Plato's... etc))*
> učenie sa*. i_ndividual _learning _(by a student)_



i'm afraid I still don't understand the distinction between learning process (učenie) andindividual learning(učenie sa). For me learning can only be individual. You can have group teaching (where a group of teachers teach together), but learning, even within a classroom, is always individual because it comes from within the individual person and therefore cannot be done in a group (studying of course is different, but you can study without learning anything). Perhaps ucenie means studying? Although I suspect it (also) means learning.


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## monalisa!

jarabina said:


> i'm afraid I still don't understand the distinction between* learning process (učenie)* and* individual learning(učenie sa)*. For me learning can only be individual. You can have group teaching (where a group of teachers teach together), but learning, even within a classroom, is always individual because it comes from within the individual person and therefore cannot be done in a group (studying of course is different, but you can study without learning anything). Perhaps ucenie means studying? Although I suspect it (also) means learning.


When you learn a lesson, a subject, a poem you use a_ faculty _of mind that is called too learning, and put it into practice, learning = _storing actually_, that poem in your mind and you are teaching _yourself_ (Ucis , whom? = seba,sebe). That is what I meant.
BTW teaching and learning are not so disticnt in all languages and _commonly_ interexchanged :_ I'll learn you, that'll learn you!!
_*Učenie *prebieha intenzívne , can be translated according to context  : learning/ the teaching is intense


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## monalisa!

> *Teaching* /* learning *aid means any aid intended for the sole purpose of *teaching/learning*
> but not in numbers 1 and 3. Does that mean you think your corrections are preferable in 1 and 3 and *optional* in 2?


*učebný*_príd. m._ týkajúci sa *vyučovania/ učenia*
No, it is not an *optional* correction*,* it means that you can use* indifferently *the two terms, they are the two faces of the same coin
a_ teaching aid _is at the same time a_ learning aid_: there cannot exist a teaching aid that is not a learning aid!

učiť and vyučovať, are the same verb = to teach, 
according to the _synonymický slovník_ the difference is only that the latter means= to teach _at school, systematically_


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## francisgranada

I'd like to add (maybe it helps a little) that _učiť sa_ literally means "to teach x-self" (myself, yourself, himself, oneself,...), hence _učenie _does not _a priori_ exclude "teaching x-self", i.e. learning. However, it tends to mean rather "teaching" as opposit to _učenie sa, _which means (obviousely) only learning.


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## morior_invictus

jarabina said:


> I would like to ask any Slovak speakers (with large doses of patience!)... Oh, that`s... not me.  But I`ll give it a try.
> This is how I understand them:
> 
> 1. *výučba *- this one seems to be clearest for me. I understand it to mean teaching a course i.e. the focus is on the course and not the teaching process. So language schools offer  *výučba jazykov *(language teaching). This is a very good comprehension. But in most cases, native Slovak speakers use "*výučba*" and "*vyučovanie*" interchangeably. I am of the opinion that "výučba" is just a part of "vyučovanie", i.e. a process [vyučovanie] within another process [výučba].
> 
> _"Rozsah *výučby* predmetov musí byť v súlade s rozsahom..." _(sounds natural to me)
> _"Rozsah *vyučovania* predmetov musí byť v súlade s rozsahom..."_ (unnatural)
> _"Odporúčaný rozsah *výučby* v zimnom semestri je...." __(natural)__
> "Odporúčaný rozsah *vyučovania* v zimnom semestri je..."_ (unnatural and wrong)
> _"*Výučba* na školách začne 2. februára." __(natural)__
> "*Vyučovanie* na školách začne 2. februára." _(natural)
> 
> 2. *učenie *refers to learning and not teaching. It may refer to both depending on context. In most cases, it refers to learning. "Učenie" may also refer to a dogma / doctrine.
> 
> 4. *učenie sa *must also refer to learning. One example I found is _Správa o stave a úrovni vyučovania (teaching) a učenia sa (learning) vo vybraných odboroch v základných umeleckých školách v školskom roku 2008/2009 v SR_. But in all honesty I can feel no difference between  *učenia* and* učenia sa*. Does *sa* just emphasise the learning in contrast to the teaching?  Would it be possible to miss out the *sa* without changing the meaning?  "*Seba/sa*" and "*sebe/si*" are reflexive pronouns. "*Seba*" and "*sebe*" are used as a "crutch" if you are unsure how to use "*sa*" and "*si*" in a sentence. Here are some examples:
> _"Učím *sa *na zajtrajší test." _(a written / spoken form) = _"I`m learning on tomorrow`s exam."_
> _"Učím *seba *(nikoho iného) na zajtrajší test."_ (you may say this in your mind as a "crutch")
> _"Kúpil som *si *auto." __(a written / spoken form)__ = "I bought *myself* an automobile."
> "Kúpil som *sebe* (nikomu inému; pre seba) auto." __(you can say this in your mind)_
> 
> 5. *vyučovanie* I had thought this referred specifically to the teaching process , but I have encountered numerous examples of learning being translated as *vyučovanie* , which has left me totally confused. The only possible conclusion I can come to is that *vyučovanie *in  fact contains within it two meanings: 1. the teaching process as seen  through the eyes of the teacher and to be contrasted with *učenie *(and* učenie **sa*)  which is from the pupil's perspective; 2. the teaching/learning process  but seen neither through the eyes of the teacher nor the eyes of the  pupil but as the general process itself (English does not make this  distinction unless we consider education as a possible translation, but  it doesn't refer specifically to the process and is better translated by  vzdelávanie [aargh just found this Formálne vzdelávanie („formal  learning“) !!!]). Vzdelávanie / učenie je celoživotný proces. = Learning is lifelong process. Vzdelanie is a result of that process (master`s degree etc.).
> "*Vzdelávanie* na školách prebieha v 2 fázach..." (natural)
> "*Učenie* na školách prebieha v 2 fázach..." (natural)
> "*Učím sa* na zajtrajší test." (natural)
> "*Vzdelávam sa* na zajtrajší test." (unnatural)
> 
> Here are some of the contrasting examples I found.
> 
> *1.Vyučovanie* cudzích jazykov by sa malo začať v čo najnižšom veku, pretože *učenie* prebieha rýchlejšie a vo väčšom rozsahu.
> *Foreign l*anguage*s* *learning* *teaching* should begin as early as possible because this  makes it easier for them to _learn_ the language the *learning *is faster and more  comprehensively.
> 
> 2.Učebná pomôcka je akákoľvek pomôcka určená výlučne na *vyučovanie* alebo odborný výcvik, predovšetkým modely, nástroje, prístroje a stroje.
> *Teaching* aid  means any aid intended for the sole purpose of *teaching* or vocational training, and in particular models, instruments, apparatus and machines.
> 
> 3.Hoci predmetné opatrenia môžu v konečnom dôsledku podporovať *vyučovanie* a šírenie talianskeho jazyka...
> Nonetheless, despite the fact that those measures might as a last  resort ultimately favour *learning *or the diffusion of the Italian  language and culture
> *My translation:* _Although the measures may ultimately promote the *teaching* and diffusion of the Italian language..._


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## monalisa!

> _Učím *sa *na zajtrajší test." _(a written / spoken form) = _"I`m learning on__ tomorrow`s exam."_



...studying for...


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## morior_invictus

monalisa! said:


> ...studying for...


You may study without learning.  But yes, a preferable version would be "to study for".


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## monalisa!

morior_invictus said:


> You may study without learning..


You can learn a_ poem _not an exam_, učenie sa_ has many meanings, here it means: _pripravujem sa , _


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## morior_invictus

monalisa! said:


> You can learn a_ poem _not an exam_, učenie sa_ has many meanings, here it means: _pripravujem sa , _


Don`t confuse "učiť sa" with "pripravovať sa". You may "pripravovať sa na skúšku" without learning. It depends on your "príprava". "Príprava" *should* include "učenie" but many students study for (pripravujú sa) an exam without learning.  Yes, it is possible.


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## monalisa!

> 2. *učenie refers to learning and not teaching (hence, it is......*


@jarabina,
just to sum it up

The_ end _of * vyučovanie* _(teaching_) is............................................... =>.....................................  ...................................*vzdelavanie *_(education)žiakov__ 
it reaches its goal by means of.....=>.   _*učenie*_ (*the* teaching) učiteľov  through=> *   výučba *(predmetov),
 which facilitate   the .......................=> .*učenie* (learning process) žiakov through=>  _*učenie [sa]*_ (study, => actual __learning=) *vzdelavanie*_


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## jarabina

Thank you all very very much for your replies. They are a great help.

Basically, the problem for me is that the English distinction between  teaching and learning is so stark that it is blocking my ability to  think about these words outside the English concepts of  teaching/learning. Although I finally feel I§m getting somewhere with  your replies. 

I have two questions about your replies (if I may).

*Number 1*




> 5. *vyučovanie* I had thought this referred  specifically to the teaching process  , but I  have encountered numerous examples of learning being translated as *vyučovanie*





> *1.Vyučovanie* cudzích jazykov by sa malo začať v čo najnižšom veku, pretože *učenie* prebieha rýchlejšie a vo väčšom rozsahu.
> *Foreign l*anguage*s* *learning* *teaching* should begin as early as possible because this  makes it easier for them to _learn_ the language the *learning *is faster and more  comprehensively.





> *1.Vyučovanie* cudzích jazykov by sa malo začať v čo najnižšom veku, pretože *učenie* prebieha rýchlejšie a vo väčšom rozsahu.
> Language *learning* teaching should begin as early as possible because this  makes it easier for them to _learn_ as the process of learning a language is faster and more



Both Monalisa and morior invictus seem to reject the first example I found of *vyučovanie *being   translated as learning. I myself would have translated this as  teaching  because learning makes no sense to me in this sentence. Can I  just  confirm that you think *learning* is a bad translation? (It is a translation from English by a Slovak.)

*Number 2*



> according to the _synonymický slovník_ the difference is only that the latter [vyučovanie] means= to teach _at school, systematically_



*Teaching* and *learning* are two distinct categories in English. *Teaching* refers to the activity of imparting knowledge to someone. *Learning* refers to the activity of attempting to grasp and retain information.

*Vyučovanie *and *učenie *are two distinct  categories in Slovak. The distinction between them is made in a  different way from the distinction in English between teaching and  learning. So, the question is, on what basis is the fundamental  distinction between *vyučovanie *and *učenie* made? Is it, as Monalisa suggests, that *vyučovanie *occurs  in a formal setting and is systematic? I would be extraordinarily  grateful if you could try not to use the words teaching and learning in  your answer


Thanks very much


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## morior_invictus

jarabina said:


> *Number 1*
> Both Monalisa and morior invictus seem to reject the first example I found of *vyučovanie *being   translated as learning. I myself would have translated this as  teaching  because learning makes no sense to me in this sentence. Can I  just  confirm that you think *learning* is a bad translation? (It is a translation from English by a Slovak.)
> by a native Slovak speaker? *Vyučovanie* refers to *teaching* and not to *learning*.
> *Number 2*
> *Teaching* and *learning* are two distinct categories in English. *Teaching* refers to the activity of imparting knowledge to someone. *Learning* refers to the activity of attempting to grasp and retain information.
> 
> *Vyučovanie *and *učenie *are two distinct  categories in Slovak. The distinction between them is made in a  different way from the distinction in English between teaching and  learning. So, the question is, on what basis is the fundamental  distinction between *vyučovanie *and *učenie* made? Is it, as Monalisa suggests, that *vyučovanie *occurs  in a formal setting and is systematic? The distinction is as follows:
> *Vyučovací proces (výučba)(vyučovanie + učenie)*:
> *vyučovanie* (teaching)(i.e. učenie druhých / riadenie učenia druhých) <------*učivo* (learning content)------> *učenie* (learning) (*učenie* seba / *sa*)
> Učiteľ *učí* žiakov prostredníctvom učiva. / Učiteľ sa snaží spríjemniť žiakom *učenie*. <----------> Žiaci *sa učia* učivo. / Žiaci dúfajú, že im *učenie* pôjde ľahko.
> 
> As you can see, normally, "*učenie*" means *learning* (from the student`s perspective).
> *Vyučovanie* also refers to a *class* - example: _Na *vyučovaní* (i.e. vyučovacej hodine) nedával pozor. / He didn`t pay attention in *class*._
> _"zostať po vyučovaní"_ means _"to stay after school"
> _
> We don`t use "*vyučovanie*" as a translation of the teaching in terms of teaching someone outside of educational institutions. Examples:
> How to *teach* someone to swim. = Ako *vyučiť* niekoho plávať.  Ako *naučiť* niekoho plávať.
> I`ll *teach* you to dance. = *Naučím* ťa tancovať.
> So "to *teach* someone to do something" = "*naučiť* niekoho niečo robiť" (finished activity - teaching is finished or the focus is on the result of the teaching). Naučím ťa plávať./ I`ll teach you to swim. (the focus is on the result of the teaching).
> "to *teach* someone to do something" = "*učiť* niekoho niečo robiť" (unfinished activity - "teaching is still not finished"). Učím ho plávať./ I`m teaching him to swim. (the focus is on the teaching that is not finished)
> *
> Vzdelávanie* is a broader term than _vyučovanie / učenie_ (like "*education*" in English). Here are some examples:
> A teacher* educate* students. = Učiteľ *vzdeláva* študentov.
> Students* educate themselves* on legislation. = Študenti *sa vzdelávajú* v oblasti legislatívy.
> We are *educated* people. = Sme *vzdelaní* ľudia.
> *Education system* in Slovakia is pretty bad. = *Systém vzdelávania* na Slovensku je dosť zlý.
> *Education *- master`s degree in law = (dosiahnuté) *vzdelanie *- magister v oblasti práva


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## francisgranada

Verbs
"Učiť" - _to teach _(never _to learn_)
"Vyučovať, vyučiť, naučiť, poučiť, zaučiť, odučiť ..." - also the prefixed forms refer to _teaching _(not to _learning_) 
"Učiť sa" - _to learn (never to teach)_
"Vyučiť sa, naučiť sa, poučiť sa, zaučiť sa, odučiť sa ..." - all reflexive forms (with "sa") always refer to _learning _(and not to _teaching_)

N.B. In case of the prefixed forms, in English we often use different verbs or constructions to render the adequate meaning or aspect of the Slovak verb.

Nouns
As the proper verb "učiť" (_to teach_) does not explicetely exclude the _teaching oneself,_ the noun "učenie" is a bit ambiguous from the point of view of the English (or of other languages where there are two separate verbs for _teaching _and _learning_). Thus, the interpretaion of the noun "učenie" depends also on the context. 

I have also a personal experience/impression: the usage of the reflexive pronoun "sa" with nouns (učenie sa) is a relatively recent "solution" or "innovation", i.e. not a common Slavic/IE solution or heritage. That's why the difference between "učenie sa" and "učenie" is not so clear or sharp as the difference between the verbs "učiť" and "učiť sa".


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## monalisa!

jarabina said:


> Vyučovanie and učenie are two distinct  categories in Slovak. ... the question is, on what basis is the fundamental  distinction between_ *vyučovanie *and *učenie* _made?



That is the point, jarabina, that distiction does* not *exist in the sense you hint: the first has only one meaning, the second more. That is why the Slovak translator failed: there is* no separate *word for learning, _(probably you missed post #12_), if you visit _wiki_ you can see that in Czech it is translated:_ U_č_enì, _and if there were a Slovak page it would be: _u_če_nie, _


> ....distinction between vyučovanie and učenie made? Is it, as Monalisa suggests,


I am not_ suggesting_, I am just _quoting_ the highest authority [SAV] on the issue, *(K)SSJ* :
*učiť nedok. (=> učenie )*
*1. stálym pôsobením pomáhať v získavaní zručnosti: u. dieťa rozprávať  (...=> at home)
*......
*4. pôsobiť ako učiteľ; vyučovať (......=> at school)....*
*vyučovaťnedok. (=> vyučovanie)
systematicky vzdelávaťvo vyučovacom procese;...*, * SSJ:
*
*učebný *_príd. vzťahujúci sa na *vyučovanie*, týkajúci sa *učenia*_*....*and* SSS:
**
učiť1. cvičením, precvičovaním, výkladom a pod. pomáhať v získavaní zručnosti al. vedomostí (často v rámci školy):.......•vyučovať (učiť v škole)

*so, the difference is only that you _u_č_i_š at school or at home ( _učieva_š,_ often) _ and _* vy*u_č_uje_š  at school *(vy-* : =  systematically, thoroughly)


> I would be extraordinarily grateful if you could try not to use the words teaching and learning in your answer


That is really a tall order, jarabina, I already gave you a couple of examples, but if you do not want English terms you ought to be able to grasp the examples.
This should do the trick, I hope 
_jarabina: "...vyučovanie_ bolo čo som si vysnívala už  v detstve, ale teraz [_učìm_, a] si uvedomujem, že _učenie_ berie veľa času a energie."
and a student might add, sadly: " pravdaže, _učenie_ berie veľa času a energie!!!."

So, you must forget about English and consider that* učenie* is also an elliptical form of *učenie [sa]* (teaching oneself) which has taken the meaning of_ learning_ (the mental process: _učenie sa _is awful; the full form is used for the actual, _practical _learning_/storing_= studying, and the prefix na-/po- is used when the storing is completed: I learn*ed* = *na*ućil som sa,_ "učil som sa" _is chiefly_ "I trained /studied at" "I took lessons from" "I was learning"_) filling a serious gap in the language. Therefore it has _a lot _of meanings. 
According to context, you must translate it with:_ teaching, learning, studying, preparing .... etc

_


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## jarabina

Wonderful Thanks monalisa, francis granada and morior invictus - I'm finally getting there!

I  decided to start the thread in English as I wasn't sure I could express  myself accurately enough in Slovak given all the nuances. Then I  realised that the English teaching/learning distinction is more of a  hindrance in understanding the Slovak, hence, my 'tall order'.  But actually, Monalisa, your quote is a wonderful example and extremely  helpful (particularly after all the discussion that's gone before).  Thanks. (I had wondered about a perfective/imperfective distinction  rather than a purely lexical one, so it would seem I am on the right  track.)



> _"...vyučovanie_ bolo čo som si vysnívala už  v detstve, ale teraz [_učìm_, a] si uvedomujem, že _učenie_ berie veľa času a energie."



These  ideas were also extremely useful in my dispensing with the notion that  there is any correlation between the Slovak and English



> _učenie _does not _a priori_ exclude "teaching x-self", i.e. learning. However, it tends to mean rather "teaching" as opposit to _učenie sa, _which means (obviousely) only learning.





> As you can see, normally, "*učenie*" means *learning* (from the student`s perspective).





> consider that* učenie* is also an elliptical form of *učenie [sa]* (teaching oneself) which has taken the meaning of_ learning_ (_učenie sa _is awful) filling a serious gap in the language and has therefore _a lot _of meanings.




Francis  granada's advice that 





> I have also a personal  experience/impression: the usage of the reflexive pronoun "sa" with  nouns (učenie sa)  is a relatively recent "solution" or "innovation", i.e. not a common  Slavic/IE solution or heritage. That's why the difference between  "učenie sa" and "učenie" is not so clear or sharp as the difference  between the verbs "učiť" and "učiť sa".


 in conjunction with Monalisa's comment that *učenie* is an eliptical form of* učenie sa* was also very helpful as I had mistakenly assumed that since *učiť* and *učiť sa* are distinct then so must be *učenie* and *učenie sa*. (Also, generally very useful to know.)

I have just one more question and I promise I will leave you all alone

What  do you think of the following translations (mine in brackets)? Do they  sufficiently capture the difference? (Where there are two options I  prefer the first.) 

Classroom resources (učebné pomôcky) were  much more limited in my day, but the teaching aids (pedagogické  pomôčky?, učebné pomôcky pre učiteľov?) were kept behind the teacher's  desk and the learning aids (pômočky pre žiakov, učebné pômočky) were on  small tables at the front of the classroom so that pupils could freely  access them.

I think I'm also starting to realise why the  pedagog- root is so favoured in Slovak (distinct) and hardly used in  English (unnecessary, plenty of alternatives).

Thanks again everyone!


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## morior_invictus

monalisa! said:


> so, the difference is only that you _u_č*í*š at school or at home ( _učieva_š,_ often__) _ and _* vy*u_č*uje*š  at school *(vy-* : =  systematically, thoroughly slovotvorná predpona, ktorá dáva slovotvornému základu iný zmysel - v tomto prípade určitý zamýšľaný rezultatívny charakter)
> 
> _jarabina: "...vyučovanie_ bolo *tým (niečím) *čo som si už v detstve vysnívala už  v detstve (this is a more natural word order, but yours is not wrong), ale teraz [_uč*í*m_, a] si uvedomujem, že _učenie_ berie (si vyžaduje / zaberá) veľa času a energie."
> I`d say: "...vyučovanie bolo už od detstva mojím snom, ale teraz [keď už učím] si uvedomujem, že učenie si vyžaduje veľa času a energie / je náročné na čas a energiu."





jarabina said:


> What  do you think of the following translations (mine in brackets)? Do they  sufficiently capture the difference? (Where there are two options I  prefer the first.)
> 
> Classroom resources (učebné pomôcky) were  much more limited in my day, but the teaching aids (pedagogické  pomô*c*ky?, učebné pomôcky pre učiteľov?) were kept behind the teacher's  desk and the learning aids (pômočky pre žiakov, učebné p*o*m*ôc*ky) were on  small tables at the front of the classroom so that pupils could freely  access them.
> I`m not going to correct your translations, since all of them are understandable and not incorrect, though we use the term "_učebné pomôcky_" for both teaching and learning aids. *Didaktické prostriedky* (didactic resources) are typically divided into two categories : *učebné pomôcky* and technické zariadenia (the majority of this category refers to *didaktická technika*). Učebné pomôcky are, for instance, prírodniny, modely (models), učebnice (textbooks), cvičebnice (workbooks), schémy (schemes), mapy(maps), nástenky (bulletin boards), gramofónové nahrávky (phonograph records), diapozitívy (diapositives / slides), videozáznamy (video records) etc. Didaktická technika includes things like tabule (chalkboards, whiteboards), plátna (project screens), videoprojektory (video projectors), gramofóny (phonographs), televízory (TVs), meotary (overhead projectors) etc. So now you should know how to use these terms.
> 
> I think I can stay away from this forum since here are a lot of educated people who are eager to share their knowledge and help people learning Slovak language, so I may focus on other things.  Good luck with learning Slovak, jarabina!


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## monalisa!

jarabina said:


> _Classroom resources_ (učebné pomôcky) were  much more limited in my day,* but* the _teaching aids_ (pedagogické  pomôčky?, učebné pomôcky pre učiteľov?) were kept behind the teacher's  desk* and* the _learning aids_ (pômočky pre žiakov, učebné pômočky) were on  small tables at the front of the classroom so that pupils could freely  access them.
> I think I'm also starting to realise why the  pedagog- root is so favoured in Slovak (distinct) and hardly used in  English (unnecessary, plenty of alternatives).


I do not understand if_ you_ found or wrote that sentence, jarabina.

I do not understand why you (_or the autho_r) are using 3 different terms, probably because of_ my limited competence_ in that area, but as far as I know there is little difference : a _learning aid_ is usually an aid for small children to use at home, but if a teacher uses it at school easily becomes a _teaching aid_, and teaching / educational/ classroom resources (in my book) is just a new (US ?) term for the old (UK)_ teaching aids_ of the '80s , that maybe includes teaching/ lesson plans, software or other instruments useful for_ teaching/ learning._ Moreover your _"but_" suggests a contrast between the two terms, so it implies you are _deliberately_ making a distinction between them. My impression is that you imply that "resources" include teaching and learning (aids).

I am afraid cannot help you unless you clarify _what_ exactly is the problem , all in all, it seems you have not yet put aside your _Manichean_ view, which anyway does* not *exist in Slovak


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## monalisa!

francisgranada said:


> Verbs
> ....
> "Učiť sa" - _to teach _(never _to teach_)



The typo can mislead future readers


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## slovac

francisgranada said:


> Verbs
> 
> "Učiť sa" - _to teach _(never _to teach_)



Correction of typo: "Učiť sa" - _to learn _(never _to teach_)


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## monalisa!

> "...vyučovanie bolo už od detstva mojím snom, ale teraz [keď už učím] si uvedomujem, že učenie si vyžaduje veľa času a energie / je náročné na čas a energiu


Thanks, morior,* any* suggestion is welcome.
I hope you don't mind corrections


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## francisgranada

monalisa! said:


> The typo can mislead future readers


Thank you and sorry (I cannot edit my post anymore ...)


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## jarabina

> I do not understand why you (_or the autho_r) are using 3 different terms, probably because of_ my limited competence_ in that area, but as far as I know there is little difference : a _learning aid_ is usually an aid for small children to use at home, but if a teacher uses it at school easily becomes a _teaching aid_, and teaching / educational/ classroom resources (in my book) is just a new (US ?) term for the old (UK)_ teaching aids_ of the '80s , that maybe includes teaching/ lesson plans, software or other instruments useful for_ teaching/ learning._ Moreover your _"but_" suggests a contrast between the two terms, so it implies you are _deliberately_ making a distinction between them. My impression is that you imply that "resources" include teaching and learning (aids).
> 
> I am afraid cannot help you unless you clarify _what_ exactly is the problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , all in all, it seems you have not yet put aside your _Manichean_ view, which anyway does* not *exist in Slovak



I really appreciate your help and morior invictus's (Your comments on the translation are very helpful MI).

@monalist You may think my view manichean but for teachers these distinctions can be important and much as been written about them. I was just wondering what terms I could use to make these distinctions in Slovak. 

My questions have been answered - so thanks to everyone.


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## TriglavNationalPark

francisgranada said:


> Thank you and sorry (I cannot edit my post anymore ...)



*I fixed it for you.*


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## monalisa!

jarabina said:


> I really appreciate your help....  but for _teachers _*these distinctions *can be important and* much as been written* about them..


You are welcome  , Jarabina, I'd really like to know (_just a link will do_) what are those_ distinctions_ in English, as I started two threads in the _English-only forum_ and nobody knows them.
You are  English and a teacher, you surely know them.


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