# FR: ayant choisi - part of speech



## daywisher

*From an info letter: *

*Nous avons le plaisir de vous annoncer le Départ de votre commande de nos entrepôt. Pour les clients ayant choisi le retrait sür place: votre commande est à votre disposition dans au magasin. (Later on it says the orders are on postal delivery) *

*Does this translate as, For customers preferring to take their order at our premise: your orders are at your disposal in our store. *

I also understand; _For customers who preferred (have declared) to take their order ......_
In this, I realize “past tense” is not correct, but I understand (it is implied in the letter) that the customer must have declared their choice of "retrait" to the company, otherwise they wouldn’t let them know that the orders are available at the store, but give their colis to the “Poste” like all others. Am I right? 
 
What exactly it this usage, what tense is it? “*ayant choisi: participe présent + participe passé(choisir)**”* 
 
Why not “Pour les clients *choisissant* le retrait sür place:....” ?  is this also correct? 
 
Merci


----------



## Gutenberg

pour les clients ayant choisi... = for customers who chose...


----------



## jetset

qui ont choisi, who opted for .


----------



## kiwi-di

for [those] customers who have chosen ...

My suggestion for * Pour les clients ayant choisi le retrait sür place: votre commande est à votre disposition dans au magasin.**

For those customers who have chosen to pick up their order, it is now ready for collection from our store.
*


----------



## daywisher

Thanks everbody, but I believe I have mis-stated my question. 
I have intended to ask the use of  "participe présent + participe passé" form. 

Question: Is there, actually, a conjugation in this form, or "ayant choisir" is a phrase itself which surprisingly looks like a form of conjugation. 

Thanks


----------



## L'Inconnu

daywisher said:


> Thanks everbody, but I believe I have mis-stated my question.
> I have intended to ask the use of "participe présent + participe passé" form.
> 
> Question: Is there, actually, a conjugation in this form, or "ayant choisir" is a phrase itself which surprisingly looks like a form of conjugation.
> 
> Thanks


 
My grammar calls it ‘Le passé composé du participe présent’. The book is old, so it may have a different name today. 

Ayant fait…
Having done/made

Étant arrivé
Having arrived

The phrases are similar in meaning to "après avoir fait’ and ‘après être arrivé’.


----------



## geostan

_Ayant choisi_ is a participe passé composé


----------



## Nicomon

L'Inconnu said:
			
		

> Ayant fait…
> 
> Having done/made
> Étant arrivé
> Having arrived
> 
> The phrases are similar in meaning to "après avoir fait’ and ‘après être arrivé’.


This is also how they call it on this site. And I agree about the meaning, for those examples. However, the title sentence is slightly different, in my opinion.

As jetset rightly suggested, you can easily replace « _ayant choisi_ » with « _qui ont choisi_ », without changing the meaning. 

Something you could not do with your grammar given examples. 


			
				geostan said:
			
		

> _Ayant choisi_ is a participe passé composé


 Hello geostan. It used to be this, but my understanding, from what I read on this page and this other page is that this tense would now be called participe *présent* composé. Who should we believe? 

In any event, I think kiwi-di's solution works fine. 
Or to use jetset's, then perhaps : _for those clients who opted for _onsite pick-up


----------



## geostan

Nicomon said:


> Hello geostan. It used to be this, but my understanding, from what I read on this page and this other page is that this tense would now be called participe *présent* composé. Who should we believe?



The latest Grevisse still refers to it as the participe passé composé. And I'm too old to start changing my terms.


----------



## Nicomon

geostan said:


> The latest Grevisse still refers to it as the participe passé composé. And I'm too old to start changing my terms.


Thanks. I was wondering whether or not that had indeed changed, as my old version of the Grevisse is well... pretty outdated. 

You're right; hold habits die hard. 

Edit : For Daywisher... *This page* from which I extracted the citation below may be of help :


> *Le participe présent *peut s'employer pour remplacer la relative _qui_
> 
> Les hommes *portant* une veste rouge doivent se mettre à droite, les autres à gauche. ("portant une veste rouge" est épithète de "hommes".
> *Les hommes qui portent* une veste rouge doivent se mettre à droite, les autres à gauche.


 So if the example was (as in your sentence) : _Les hommes ayant porté_... it could be changed to : _Les hommes qui ont porté_


----------



## Wyn

Bonjour à tous,
I have just noticed this massage and would like to make a contribution

*Nous avons le plaisir de vous annoncer le Départ de votre commande de nos entrepôt. Pour les clients **ayant choisi** le retrait sur place: votre commande est à votre disposition dans au magasin. (Later on it says the orders are on postal delivery)*

The so called present participle, in reality has nothing to do with the present and is not conjugated – it takes its time from the conjugated verb in the main clause– it merely expresses something taking place at the same time as the time expressed by the verb in the main clause – it expresses simultaneity – and something which is still in progress (non accompli)
« Il habite un appartement appartenant à son directeur »
He LIVES in a flat belonging to his boss.
Il habitait un appartement appartenant à son directeur.
He LIVED ( was living) in a flat belonging to his boss.

The participle expresses the SAME time as that of the main conjugated verb. – It can be present past or future
The present participle in (1) belongs to the present = all it says is that these ( the living in the flat and the owning of the flat by his boss) are in progress at the same time – that PRESENT time –simultaneity. 
The present participle in (2) belongs to the past = all it says is that these ( the living in the flat and the owning of the flat by his boss) were in progress at that PAST time – simultaneity

If one wants to use the participle to express something which is anterior to ( comes before) the time expressed in the main clause and is something completed ( accompli) and finished before the event in the main clause, then one uses « le participe composé » « ayant appartenu »

Elle porte une broche ayant appartenu à sa grand-mère.
She WEARS a broach which belonged to her grandmother. (having belonged to)
Ayant appartenu – this is finished and is anterior to that present time – it no longer belongs to her grandmother.
Elle portait une broche ayant appartenu à sa grand-mère. 
She WORE a broach which had belonged to her grandmother.
Ayant appartenu – this is finished and anterior to that past time – it no longer belonged to her grandmother.

As already suggested, it is true that one can replace a relative clause by these participles or vice versa.
Il habite un appartement qui appartient à son directeur.
Il habitait un appartement qui appartenait à son directeur.
Elle porte une broche qui a appartenu à sa grand-mère.
Elle portait une broche qui avait appartenu à sa grand-mère

*Pour les clients **AYANT CHOISI** le retrait sur place: votre commande est à votre disposition.*

All it says is that for the customers who HAVE chosen to collect their purchases on the spot … they ARE at their disposal
In other words the choice has been taken, anterior and decided.

Using the present participle would make less sense but would be alright I think if a future meaning was introduced
Pour les clients *choisissant* le retrait sur place: votre commande *sera* à votre disposition.

The use of the future in the main clause makes the present participle also take a similar sense almost like “who will be choosing to”
The customers who will be choosing to pick up their orders on the spot – they will be at their disposal…
This I think is less satisfactory.
Cordialement 
Wyn


----------



## daywisher

Thank you all for your precious comments... and let me try;
*Ayant lu* tout (tous?) vos précieux commentaires, *j'ai compris *bien cette conjugation particulière. 
Merci

I would like to re-phrase my previous sentence. 
*Ayant lu* tout (tous?) vos précieux commentaires, *j'ai *une  compréhension complète de cet conjugaison particulière. 

Having read all your precious comments, I (now) have a complete understanding of this particular conjugation. 

Somehow I did not like the previous example, it conveys an _action_. 
This one however, sounds better to me as it conveys a _state of being, a possession_, affected by the previously completed action. 

Thanks


----------



## Nicomon

> daywisher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all for your precious comments... and let me try;
> *Ayant lu* tout (tous?) vos précieux commentaires, *j'ai compris *bien cette conjugation particulière.
> 
> 
> 
> Here - if you want to use that tense - you could rephrase to say : _Ayant lu tou*s* vos précieux commentaires j'ai bien compris/je comprends maintenant mieux cet*te* conjug*aison *particulière. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Ayant lu* tout (tous?) vos précieux commentaires, j'ai une compréhension complète de cet*te *conjugaison particulière.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or... _j'ai une parfaite compréhension._
> 
> However for some reason... the first one sounds more natural to me.  But I would say... _Après avoir lu_
> 
> To use « _tou*t*_ », rather than « _tou*s*_ », you'd have to delete _ces commentaires_ and either inverse _tout _and_ lu _or use _tout as a noun and say « le tout ». _
> 
> E.g. _Ayant tout lu / Après avoir lu le tout_
> 
> That would mean : _Having read / After reading everything._
Click to expand...


----------



## daywisher

Merci Nicomon. All clear now.


----------



## Wyn

Bonjour daywisher,
Pardonnez- moi pour cette réponse tardive
Glad to hear it was of some use.


> Ayant lu tous vos précieux commentaires, *j'ai *une compréhension complète de cette
> conjugaison particulière.


C'est exact
I wouldn't myself call it a *conjugation* since it stays the same and does not have *personne*, *number* or any indication of *time *- all that it indicated that it is something completed and anterior to a later time and that its subject and this later time is found in the main clause . I am going to change the *vos* to *ses* in case I get a big head!
Ayant lu tous ses précieux commentaires, Nous avons une compréhension complète de cette tournure particulière. Here the subject of the "participe antérieur" is *nous*
When you wrote your sentence
Ayant lu tous vos précieux commentaires, *j'ai *une compréhension complète de cette
conjugaison particulière. 
Here *Je* is the subject of it, (that is yourself)
The time reference is the *present* - the "having read"comes before the present
If one wanted to express something anterior to a past time instead of anterior to the present as you have written
Ayant lu tous ses précieux commentaires, Nous avons eu (or nous avions)une compréhension complète de cette tournure particulière. 
Even in the future
Ayant lu tous ses précieux commentaires, Nous aurons une compréhension complète de cette tournure particulière. Clearly thes events havn't yet taken place both being in the future but the participe antérieur expresses something in the future which will be completed first followed by the comprhension which will be at a later time in the future
This is strange in English but now the Ayant lu become something which will have been completed before that future time like
After we will have read his precious comments, we will understand....

The French are particular about the concordance of time. In a time clause such as
Je vous *réglerai *après que *j'aurai reçu* la facture.
This is perfectly logical - both these are in the FUTURE one will be completed (j'aurai reçu) before the other ( je vous réglerai) I will settle with you when I will have received the invoice. 
One doesn't say this in English one says
I will settle with you when *I have* received the invoice. -which to the French is strange.
Cordialement
Wyn


----------



## daywisher

Thanks Wyn and everbody.  
Appreciated. 
Now "étant + past participle" structure also make more sense to me .


----------



## donques

Wyn, if you insist on these events being simultaneous, what about the following sentence?
" Il y a deux cents ans Charles Dickens a habité la maison appartenant a ma mère"


----------

