# Usted / Tú (Formal/informal)



## lfeat

Hola todos,

I have a question concerning the uses of Usted and Tú. I had learned that when you speak to someone that is older or that you don't know to use the formal usted/ustedes, su etc. instead of the informal addresses. However, many of the spanish speakers that I have talked to here in the US prefer that you speak to them using the informal addresses. 

My Spanish teacher, an older-than-me Colombian woman, preferred that her students addressed her informally. I also know several younger-than-me Spanish speakers that address me informally as well , which does not bother me. What are the rules these days concerning this issue?

Lfeat


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## Tatzingo

Perhaps it's always safer to start off with Usted and see how the conversation develops. If they correct you, then you know that it is safe to use tu'.

Also, I think certain Latin American countries don't have the tu' form, but have a "voseo" form instead.

Tatz.


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## lfeat

Gracias,

I had originally posted this in the Cultural forum and after reading it the way it was written, I can see why it was moved. I was really trying to get a feel for the cultural issues regarding formality these days as opposed to the past, and the way it reads I didn't pose the question as well as I should have.  I'll try there again.  Thanks

lfeat


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## bouncy.bouncy

You could just use Usted with everyone until you see a pattern specific to the location you're in, of when people use tú.


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## mazbook

Hola lfeat, If speaking with Mexicans, ALWAYS use Usted and/or the usted verb conjugation UNLESS the person specifically requests that you use tú (except with children, of course).  Of course ustedes is both the respectful (I prefer this to formal) plural and the informal plural form in Mexican and Central American Spanish, so you don't have to worry about that problem.

It's a cultural thing!

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## lfeat

Mazbook,

Muchisimo Gracias!  I had always done that in the past, but wasn't sure if things had changed or not.  I have several friends from El Salvador, Bolivia, Mexico and I did notice the younger ones occasionally when I first met them used the "usted" forms of conjugations when speaking with me. Pero yo no soy viejo! pues, muy viejo lo menos.  Some of them didn't as well, so, yo no sé

Gracias a todos
lfeat


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## mazbook

lfeat, Between my kids and all my nephews and nieces (all by marriage) here in México ONLY my kids use tú and the tú conjugations with me.  Just shows how much respect I get in my own family! 

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## aleCcowaN

Of course, you may use "Usted" with every unknown people 16+ years old and "you'll never be wrong". But I suggest you may think in terms of what you know in English. Would you expect that kind of person will say soon "Call me Charlie, Pat, etc.", then use "tú" immeadiately. Do you think that kind of person would prefer to be addressed as "Mr. O'Hara, Mrs. Wong, Dr. Carrol", then use "Usted". 

With this simple rule of thumb of splitting the American English "you" of your own culture, you'll be able to manage quite well. Perhaps you'd sound a little bit familiar in Mexico, and a little stiff in Spain, but it's a good point to start.

Stick to this simple rule and move slowly as you gain experience, considering your teacher's attitude and other things as anecdotes.

Mainly, you should not consider the omnipresent "tú" in these forums as a proof that "Usted" is cast to universities and finest people parties. Most humble people in most countries manage this elemental courtesy extremely well. We use here "tú" because of the mix of people from all countries and ages -mostly not declared-, and almost everybody is hidden behind a nickname and use an avatar as a "Mardie Gras" mask. These facts don't affect the seriousness of all the posts here -nor guarantee it-, but foster a relaxed atmosphere that promotes an overuse of "tú".


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## mazbook

Hola aleCcowaN, You say,





> We use here "tú" because of the mix of people from all countries and ages


*I don't!*  But that's for a very practical reason.  

If I started using tú on the forum, I would, for sure, accidentally start using it elsewhere, and in my part of México, that just isn't done.  There are still many, many people here who even use Usted in the family and even between husband and wife!

I would far rather err on the side of respect, so that I don't get referred to as just another "pinche gringo invasor", which is how my wife refers to most gringos. 

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## oxi

Tengo que confesar que cuando me tratan de ud. me pongo enfermo, me irrito y me siento incómodo. Aquí sólo me trata de ud. la guardia civil, a quien no profeso especial respeto. Por lo demás, las únicas situaciones donde me veo utilizando el ud. es en entrevistas de trabajo. Y ahora paso a explicar por qué me incomoda tanto:

A mí, que alguien tenga maneras, o como comúnmente se dice, educación, me parece muy bien. Lo que no me parece tan bien es que existan determinadas situaciones en las que, a la fuerza (por lo visto), haya que utilizar estas maneras. Pienso que las maneras o educación deben ir cogidas de la mano con el respeto. Para mí, sentir respeto no es tener miedo o admiración por alguien; es simplemente una cuestión de moral. Para mí, el mayor respeto que existe es aquel que se siente por los congéneres, por el mero hecho de ser eso: congéneres; estoy hablando de humanos. No me entra en la cabeza, y creo que muy posiblemente no me entrará nunca, que haya que hacer distinciones de trato con personas de susodicha "alta clase social".

Hasta aquí todo bien. Ahora, poniendo los pies en la tierra, y con la certeza de que me van a seguir tratando de ud., y yo también tendré que seguir haciéndolo, lo que ya me parece terrible es la falta de coordinación que hay entre las maneras en el habla, y el comportamiento físico o entonación de lo que se dice. A mí, que un guardia civil me trate de ud., mientras se apoya en la puerta de mi coche, con las piernas cruzadas y una mirada de "bueno, voy a divertirme un rato con éste", sinceramente, me parece vomitivo. Si un teleoperador me llama y me trata de ud. mientras me ofrece una oferta y le pido que por favor me tutee, sigue sin hacerlo, me entran (más) ganas de colgar; del mismo modo que cuando llamo por teléfono para poner una reclamación y el teleoperador, a pesar de ser muy educado, se comporta como un auténtico imbécil.

Por otro lado, que alguien de otro país me trate de ud., me trae sin cuidado (al menos hago un esfuerzo consciente por que no me importe), ya que entiendo que en otros países la gente habla así.

Sospecho que no soy el único que piensa así. Pero también sé que es probable que con este texto me haya creado algunos enemigos; esperemos que pocos.

Saludos


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## mazbook

¡Ay! oxi:  Tiene razón.  De muchas veces antes españoles otros escribiron como Usted en este foro.  ¡Pero! en el noroeste de México, usamos Usted. Lo siento.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## oxi

Sólo quería hacer ver mi punto de vista. No pretendía ser una crítica a los castellanoparlantes que hablan normalmente así, sino a los que lo hacen puntualmente así, según para qué propositos.


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## mazbook

¿Castellano? oxi.  ¡Por favor! NO hablamos castellano en México, hablamos *¡español! 

*Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## oxi

Supongo que es una broma... después de todo lo que he leído por los foros...

Cheers


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## mazbook

¡Ay! oxi, me ha destruido.   Hablo un poco de español.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## oxi

No, no, no, no, no. Aclaremos esto. He dicho a ver si era una broma porque según he visto, la mayoría de castellanoparlantes(o hispanohablantes, o lo que sea) de América (y yo siempre que digo "América" me refiero al continente) prefieren decir que hablan "castellano" en lugar de "español"; dicho sea de paso, yo también prefiero hablar "castellano".
En ningún caso quería insinuar que tu "español" o "castellano" sea poco o malo. De hecho me parece bastante bueno.
Siento no haberme explicado bien. 

Cheers!


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## Katiamie

Hola a todos, bueno.... yo prefiero hablar de tú, pero con personas mayores y desconocidos empleo usted. Creo que depende de la situación y como han dicho ya, hay lugares en donde se usa el vos, otros en donde predomina el usted y otros en donde depende del contexto.

Con respecto a español y castellano......es lo mismo!!!!!!!!

El idioma nació en Castilla es por eso que se le llamó castellano, pero luego España se volvió tan poderosa que le cambiaron de nombre por español, asi como los ingleses le colocaron inglés a su idioma!!...bueno eso es lo que tengo entendido


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## AuPhinger

Very interesting and appropriate thread for me.  I wish my Spanish was stronger; if it was, I would write in it, but it is late, and it would take too much effort!

I learned my initial Spanish as a child starting at age 10 in a very small town in Peru in 1955.  So, we have several things:  1), I was young, nearly everyone was older than I was, 2), this was over 50 years ago, and the world was a different place, and 3) my Father was a PhD agricultural scientist assigned to a government experimental station in an isolated area, so you had either highly educated people, or those of the other extreme.  Very few in the middle.

In other words, I was "junior" to virtually everyone, and grew up using Ud. with just about everyone except my friends.  

I am now taking Spanish at the local community college; my instructor is my age (63), and pretty much "old school".  He has lived in the U.S. all his life, but is Hispanic heritage, is married to a Honduran, and is as close to 100% bilingual as one can be.  He tends to be more formal than most of the younger people.

Anyway, I have found that I have to really work at feeling comfortable with what is common usage of Ud & Tú  today.  Even the textbook we use is written in the familiar.  This is not to say that the changes of use are wrong, it is just that a shift took place while I was not using Spanish, and I am adapting!  I am sure that I will still always be pretty conservative about the use of the formal & informal, but also want to speak in a manner that is not stilted or stuffy.

I understand that in Spain, the familiar is used much more widely than in the Americas.  Is this the case?

Thanks,


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## oxi

Katiamie said:


> Con respecto a español y castellano......es lo mismo!!!!!!!!
> 
> El idioma nació en Castilla es por eso que se le llamó castellano, pero luego España se volvió tan poderosa que le cambiaron de nombre por español, asi como los ingleses le colocaron inglés a su idioma!!...bueno eso es lo que tengo entendido



Por eso mismo; me parece una arrogancia sublime, y aunque no soy de Castilla, prefiero llamarlo castellano.



AuPhinger said:


> This is not to say that the changes of use are wrong, it is just that a shift took place while I was not using Spanish, and I am adapting!
> 
> I don't quite of grasp what you mean. Could you elaborate on that, or put it in other words? Thanks!
> 
> I understand that in Spain, the familiar is used much more widely than in the Americas.  Is this the case?
> 
> I'd say yes, but I've never been to America, so I'm not sure. I've only watched some movies dubbed in Spanish from abroad of Spain, and met some Spanish-speaking people from abroad too.
> 
> Thanks,


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## jazyk

> Sospecho que no soy el único que piensa así. Pero también sé que es probable que con este texto me haya creado algunos enemigos; esperemos que pocos.


Me siento igual que tú.


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## San

oxi said:


> Tengo que confesar que cuando me tratan de ud. me pongo enfermo, me irrito y me siento incómodo. Aquí sólo me trata de ud. la guardia civil, a quien no profeso especial respeto. Por lo demás, las únicas situaciones donde me veo utilizando el ud. es en entrevistas de trabajo. Y ahora paso a explicar por qué me incomoda tanto:
> 
> A mí, que alguien tenga maneras, o como comúnmente se dice, educación, me parece muy bien. Lo que no me parece tan bien es que existan determinadas situaciones en las que, a la fuerza (por lo visto), haya que utilizar estas maneras. Pienso que las maneras o educación deben ir cogidas de la mano con el respeto. Para mí, sentir respeto no es tener miedo o admiración por alguien; es simplemente una cuestión de moral. Para mí, el mayor respeto que existe es aquel que se siente por los congéneres, por el mero hecho de ser eso: congéneres; estoy hablando de humanos. No me entra en la cabeza, y creo que muy posiblemente no me entrará nunca, que haya que hacer distinciones de trato con personas de susodicha "alta clase social".
> 
> Hasta aquí todo bien. Ahora, poniendo los pies en la tierra, y con la certeza de que me van a seguir tratando de ud., y yo también tendré que seguir haciéndolo, lo que ya me parece terrible es la falta de coordinación que hay entre las maneras en el habla, y el comportamiento físico o entonación de lo que se dice. A mí, que un guardia civil me trate de ud., mientras se apoya en la puerta de mi coche, con las piernas cruzadas y una mirada de "bueno, voy a divertirme un rato con éste", sinceramente, me parece vomitivo. Si un teleoperador me llama y me trata de ud. mientras me ofrece una oferta y le pido que por favor me tutee, sigue sin hacerlo, me entran (más) ganas de colgar; del mismo modo que cuando llamo por teléfono para poner una reclamación y el teleoperador, a pesar de ser muy educado, se comporta como un auténtico imbécil.
> 
> Por otro lado, que alguien de otro país me trate de ud., me trae sin cuidado (al menos hago un esfuerzo consciente por que no me importe), ya que entiendo que en otros países la gente habla así.
> 
> Sospecho que no soy el único que piensa así. Pero también sé que es probable que con este texto me haya creado algunos enemigos; esperemos que pocos.
> 
> Saludos



Si vas en el metro y ves que a una señora, pongamos de cuarenta o cincuenta, se le cae algo del bolso sin que se de cuenta, ¿qué le dices?, ¿Perdona, se te ha caido esto? 

Yo me sentía incómodo con el usted cuando tenía veinte, pero luego como dices te ves obligado a usarlo en muchas circunstancias y supongo que te acostumbras.

Saludos.


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## San

aleCcowaN said:


> Of course, you may use "Usted" with every unknown people 16+ years old and "you'll never be wrong". But I suggest you may think in terms of what you know in English. Would you expect that kind of person will say soon "Call me Charlie, Pat, etc.", then use "tú" immeadiately. Do you think that kind of person would prefer to be addressed as "Mr. O'Hara, Mrs. Wong, Dr. Carrol", then use "Usted".
> 
> With this simple rule of thumb of splitting the American English "you" of your own culture, you'll be able to manage quite well. Perhaps you'd sound a little bit familiar in Mexico, and a little stiff in Spain, but it's a good point to start.
> 
> Stick to this simple rule and move slowly as you gain experience, considering your teacher's attitude and other things as anecdotes.
> 
> Mainly, you should not consider the omnipresent "tú" in these forums as a proof that "Usted" is cast to universities and finest people parties. Most humble people in most countries manage this elemental courtesy extremely well. We use here "tú" because of the mix of people from all countries and ages -mostly not declared-, and almost everybody is hidden behind a nickname and use an avatar as a "Mardie Gras" mask. These facts don't affect the seriousness of all the posts here -nor guarantee it-, but foster a relaxed atmosphere that promotes an overuse of "tú".



Me parece muy buen consejo


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## AuPhinger

Oxi,

Quote:
                                                                      Originally Posted by *AuPhinger* 
                 This is not to say that the changes of use are wrong, it is just that a shift took place while I was not using Spanish, and I am adapting! 

I don't quite of grasp what you mean. Could you elaborate on that, or put it in other words? Thanks!

..."

Thanks,

What I was trying to say is that during those fifty years, much of society, the world in general, became less formal, the distinction between social groups less pronounced, adherence to rules for the sake of custom alone declined, therefore the use of the formal and informal changed.

Does this help, do you agree/disagree?


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## mulmex

I originally tried teaching myself Spanish from books after moving to the border area of South Texas.  It was a start, but not very useful.  Eventually, I started going to cantinas across the border on weekends to try to learn how to talk with other people.  At first, everyone addressed me using usted, but that quickly changed to tu. (After a few beers everybody is a friend!).  When I moved to Mexico City I spent 95 percent of my time with friends or people who were younger than me and I was using tu all the time.  While I understood the use of usted, I never used it; and since I never used it, it was almost impossible for me to remember to use usted when it was called for.  I remember meeting Don Alejandro (un señor de 91 años y el abuelo de mi novia).  I addressed him using usted and then quickly explained that I wasn't accustomed to using usted and asked him to forgive me if I used tu with him trying to assure him that even if I did use tu, I DID have respect for him.  He laughed and said, "no te preocupes."  No problem, I thought.  However, my girlfriend was furious with me at the end of the night saying, "mi abuelo es un anciano muy importante y merece más respeto!"  She accused me of having bad manners (mala educación).  I tried to explain that the concept of two different forms of address doesn't exist in English and that it was difficult for me to remember to use usted.  I said, I don't have bad manners, I have different manners.  Needless to say, she's now my ex-novia! 

After almost 8 years of living in México, I can now usually carry on a conversation using only usted with only a few "slip ups."  It hasn't been easy, but I'm glad I've made some progress.  While the great majority of Mexicans have been very understanding because I am a foreigner, it's nice to be able to address people the way they like to be addressed.  I think its a nice touch.  Especially with elderly people who receive so little respect in our country.  I really don't understand the resistance of many people toward using usted.  Many of the same people who complain about usted being overly formal and elitist have no problem calling someone Charles instead of Charlie because that is the person's preference.  It's no different than using usted instead of tu with someone because they prefer usted.


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## DCPaco

Tatzingo said:


> Also, I think certain Latin American countries don't have the tu' form, but have a "voseo" form instead.
> Tatz.


 

Tatz, I'm Mexican and Mexicans don't use vos (with the exception of Chiapas and that must be from the Central-American people that settle there).

Now back to the question. In Mexico we use "usted" (for the most part and there are always exceptions) with people we don't know and these people are adults. The polite form is the neutral ground and when you speak to someone, they will then grant you permission to speak to them informally (in the old days of English, to address someone in the informal without permission would've been received with a statement like: I did not grant your permission to address me so informally...but those days are gone and to some extent in Spanish they remain in the classist recesses).

In Mexico an older person could speak to a younger person in "tú." The younger person must not assume permission to speak back in "tú." But if the person insists on being addressed this way, then it should be done. (Many times people feel aged when addressed so formally...I know I do...I prefer to be called tú...but if it is a very young person, I'll accept usted.)

When there are two adults, they will address each other in the formal and if this doesn't become "tú" soon, it may stay as a formal relationship because of habit and not because of lack of familiarity.

When a lord of a house (master) speaks to the maid or butler (servant), there is a relationship of master and servant in place. The lord or lady of the house may use the familiar (tú) or the (usted, if it is an elderly person); it is also used to mark social class. If the lady of the house calls the service "tú" they must never assume that they can be informal with the lady or lord of the house. This applies to restaurants and other settings where the client is the patron.

When we speak to our parents and grandparents, that varies from region to region. I was taught to address my parents and grandparents only in the formal...but I have seen that the familiar is used to speak to nannies, parents, grandparents, uncles, etc.

I think I may have covered it all here. This however, is what we do in Mexico. The members of other countries will give you their perspective.


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## DCPaco

aleCcowaN said:


> With this simple rule of thumb of splitting the American English "you" of your own culture, you'll be able to manage quite well. Perhaps you'd sound a little bit familiar in Mexico, and a little stiff in Spain, but it's a good point to start.
> 
> We use here "tú" because of the mix of people from all countries and ages -mostly not declared-, and almost everybody is hidden behind a nickname and use an avatar as a "Mardie Gras" mask. These facts don't affect the seriousness of all the posts here -nor guarantee it-, but foster a relaxed atmosphere that promotes an overuse of "tú".


 

This is perfectly said...I had to reduce it because it's already been cited once...but this is very well put.


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## lfeat

Muchas gracias para todos respuestas.  Yo he aprendido mucho durante esta discusión. 

lfeat


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