# Pronunciation of the letter R



## MisterTee

Hello everyone,

I have been to Turkey recently for attending an IT conference. I was impressed. What a lovely country and lovely people! I'm yet to blog about my stay there and describe how I've enjoyed every single moment I spent there. 

Anyway, since then I've been actively learning Turkish language. From reading through online resources, I'd assume the following facts hold true (please correct me if I'm mistaken):


Every letter in the language, has exactly one pronunciation, regardless of its position in words or sentences. For example, there's no two letters forming a new voice in Turkish language (e.g. s+h becomes sh as in sheep, in English).
This implies that there's no *silent letters* in words.
Now, I've been practicing the pronunciation of some commonly used phrases in a  page from BBC's website (couldn't post the link, check below*). And two oddities confused me:


The word *"Hayır"*, is pronounced as "Haye*sh*".
The phrase "*İngilizce biliyor musunuz*?", is pronounced as "Inglizjay biyar musunuz". The "l" in "*biliyor" *is almost silent. Also the lady enunciating the phrase appears as if she replaces the "m" in "musunuz" with an "n".
So, my question is, are these recordings correctly represent formal Turkish, or are they not more than slang usage? Also are there different rules of pronunciation which contradict the above mentioned that I'm not aware of?

* The link is: bbc dot co dot uk/languages/other/quickfix/turkish.shtml

Teşekkürler, in advance!


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## farukyazici

You can use this site to listen the pronunciation of a Turkish word :
http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/tts_example.php?sitepal

"Hayır" is not pronounced as "Hayesh" or anything like that. You can hear it from the link. Some people pronounce it as if there are two a's(Haayır) which is completely wrong.

The "l" is not silent at all in "biliyor". 

Only problem is you are not familiar enough to this language and BBC is not a good way to get to it. You should try the link I wrote.


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## MisterTee

Thanks for the link.

To be honest, *"Hayır" *is again pronounced as "Hayesh" in the website you've mentioned. The "r" is not pronounced as in "rent", but as in "sheep".

As far as I can tell, it's the letter "ş" that is pronounced as "sh" in Turkish.

Where am I not following you?


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## Rallino

We don't pronounce it as "hayesh", it's just some people pronounce the "r" a bit "brightly" if you know what I mean. That also depends on region ofcourse, me for example, I roll my R's. 

But even those people pronounce "hayı*r*" differently than would pronounce "Hayı*ş*" (if such a word existed.)

*"Every letter has exactly one pronounciation"* This is a myth. Although, I would agree on that if you added the word "almost", but not all the time.

For example, the "e"s in these words are pronounced differently:

P*e*nc*e*r*e*
H*e*rk*e*s
Ş*e*bn*e*m

The rule is, if the *"e"* is in a closed syllable (i.e. that ends with a consonant), and is situated just before the consonants: "n, l, m, r", then that "e" is pronounced like:
*bad, sad, cat, chat, hat, mad *in english.

In all other cases it's like: set, met, bed, fred...

The "t" and "L" also change from time to time, but I'm not going to start a debate on that right now =)


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## chrysalid

Hello,

I checked both of the internet sites and listened to the recordings. I think they seem to make a more fricative (I'm not sure about the terminology) "r" than the proper Turkish one and this fricative r sounds like a "sh" when pronounced at the end of a word. It is slightly similar to the Polish "rz". Try the Polish pronunciation of "Włodzimierz" and "Włodzimier" on oddcast.com and you will have an idea about the difference.


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## Volcano

MisterTee said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> To be honest, *"Hayır" *is again pronounced as "Hayesh" in the website you've mentioned. The "r" is not pronounced as in "rent", but as in "sheep".
> 
> As far as I can tell, it's the letter "ş" that is pronounced as "sh" in Turkish.
> 
> Where am I not following you?



*You are wrong, hayır is not pronounced as hayesh in Turkish. *


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## MisterTee

Rallino said:


> For example, the "e"s in these words are pronounced differently:
> 
> P*e*nc*e*r*e*
> H*e*rk*e*s
> Ş*e*bn*e*m
> 
> The rule is, if the *"e"* is in a closed syllable (i.e. that ends with a consonant), and is situated just before the consonants: "n, l, m, r", then that "e" is pronounced like:
> *bad, sad, cat, chat, hat, mad *in english.
> 
> In all other cases it's like: set, met, bed, fred...


Thanks, Rallino. In the first example, P*e*nc*e*r*e*, since it's not a closed syllable, shouldn't pronounced as P*e*nc*e*r*e*, according to your rule?


chrysalid said:


> Hello,
> 
> I checked both of the internet sites and listened to the recordings. I think they seem to make a more fricative (I'm not sure about the terminology) "r" than the proper Turkish one and this fricative r sounds like a "sh" when pronounced at the end of a word. It is slightly similar to the Polish "rz". Try the Polish pronunciation of "Włodzimierz" and "Włodzimier" on oddcast.com and you will have an idea about the difference.


I checked out few Turkish videos on YouTube and and the "r" is pronounced exactly as you're all suggesting. I guess these text-to-speech services should not be taken for granted after all. Thank you.



Volcano said:


> *You are wrong, hayır is not pronounced as hayesh in Turkish. *


I wasn't imposing an opinion; I was simply asking a question, since I'm in no position to argue with native speakers of a language I've just began to learn!


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## Rallino

MisterTee said:


> Thanks, Rallino. In the first example, P*e*nc*e*r*e*, since it's not a closed syllable, shouldn't pronounced as P*e*nc*e*r*e*, according to your rule?



It is a closed syllable.  Pen-ce-re.  So that's why the first one is pronounced different than the other two.


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## MisterTee

Rallino said:


> It is a closed syllable.  Pen-ce-re.  So that's why the first one is pronounced different than the other two.


I'm not a linguist, but I understood from your previous post that a closed syllable is a word that ends with a consonant, and "pencere" ends with the vowel "e". Isn't that so?


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## Rallino

Oh, I should have been more clear, sorry 

A closed syllable is a *SYLLABLE* that ends in consonant, not the entire word. After all it's the syllable that affects the pronunciation 

In "*Pencere*" : * Pen *: closed syllable, *Ce*: open syllable, *Re*: open syllable

In english for example:

*Organisation: Or-ga-ni-sa-tion*

**Closed syllables.
*Open Syllables.

*


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## MisterTee

There you go. :Thumbs up:

Teşekkür ederiz.


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## Volcano

MisterTee said:


> I wasn't imposing an opinion; I was simply asking a question, since I'm in no position to argue with native speakers of a language I've just began to learn!



*I was simply explaining.*


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## veronica55

MisterTee said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> To be honest, *"Hayır" *is again pronounced as "Hayesh" in the website you've mentioned. The "r" is not pronounced as in "rent", but as in "sheep".
> 
> As far as I can tell, it's the letter "ş" that is pronounced as "sh" in Turkish.
> 
> Where am I not following you?



I understand what you mean. You're simply talking about what you hear. Let me explain, in turkish, sometimes the letter "r" is not that sharp, especially if it is the last letter of a word. Radar, kadar, kıtır, kömür, peynir...etc. When we say these words, at the end of spelling the letter "r" a person naturally gives his breat out, so it sometimes sounds like there is a "ş" at the end. It changes person to person of course. But in real a "r" is "r" and just pronounced like "r". So "hayır" is "hayıR" not "hayırş" never.

Hope this helps.


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## farukyazici

I think I figured out what's wrong. Would you try to say "Ömer"(but not "Omar")? After saying several times listen and compare what you've said. I bet you'll say "Ömeş". I've tried this word on native English speakers many time. It has always came up as "Ömeş".

I believe "Hayır" is a similar case to "Ömer".


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## smilingtranslater

I appreciate all Turkish friends for their great effort but I believe that MisterTee heard the pronounciation of "hayır" from a defective source. This is all.


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## MisterTee

veronica55 said:


> I understand what you mean. You're simply talking about what you hear. Let me explain, in turkish, sometimes the letter "r" is not that sharp, especially if it is the last letter of a word. Radar, kadar, kıtır, kömür, peynir...etc. When we say these words, at the end of spelling the letter "r" a person naturally gives his breat out, so it sometimes sounds like there is a "ş" at the end. It changes person to person of course. But in real a "r" is "r" and just pronounced like "r". So "hayır" is "hayıR" not "hayırş" never.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Yeah, I'm surely talking about what I hear. And I think you've got me right. 
It's amazing how native speakers of a language hardly recognize these subtle details due to their long-time familiarity with their language whereas they seem so apparent to learners. Here's another example I found earlier on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugH7TsleFoM

Listen to the actress at approximately 1:50.




farukyazici said:


> I think I figured out what's wrong. Would you try to say "Ömer"(but not "Omar")? After saying several times listen and compare what you've said. I bet you'll say "Ömeş". I've tried this word on native English speakers many time. It has always came up as "Ömeş".
> 
> I believe "Hayır" is a similar case to "Ömer".


It's hard to get breath extended like that in Arabic, but I guess this is not hard at all in Turkish. I noticed that Turkish language makes use of vowels extensively.



smilingtranslater said:


> I appreciate all Turkish friends for their great effort but I believe that MisterTee heard the pronounciation of "hayır" from a defective source. This is all.


And that defective source was the BBC! Not all that glitters is gold, eh? 

And yes, I was overwhelmed by all the friendly and detailed responses to my post. They were far beyond expectation.


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## lincocin

Hey, MisterTee. I'm korean speaker and I couldn't agree with you more! I've been looking for what cause these "sh" sound of "R". unfortunately my Turkish friends weren't really helpful, trying to help me. They just said hayir is not Hayesh as it is obviously to me! they didn't find it different whether R is the end of word or not.

There must be something different we can't know about turkish "R". Only did I found some clues about this by now. 

// Practice saying the Turkish "r," which is softer than the English "r." No matter where it appears in a word, the Turkish "r" is softly rolled, and similar in sound to the Spanish or Italian "r." At the ends of words, the Turkish "r" has a very slight /sh/ sound at the end, so the man's name "Ender" sounds like "ehn-dehrsh." /;/

www.ehow.com/how_5479524_pronounce-words-turkish-language.html#ixzz1KRKKpX68


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## Loukassit0

As I could heard from Turkish people pronunciation, the Turkish R is kind of Spanish R, but tongue rolled once.
For sure, R is not Ş


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## macrotis

MisterTee said:


> The word *"Hayır"*, is pronounced as "Haye*sh*".



Right. I hear some people pronounce it that way (even I hear myself doing it now and then) but it's a very vague ş (sh) and not intentional nor correct, maybe just because their places of articulation overlap or are very close in the vocal tract.


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## Rallino

macrotis said:


> Right. I hear some people pronounce it that way (even I hear myself doing it now and then) but it's a very vague ş (sh) and not intentional nor correct, maybe just because their places of articulation overlap or very close in the vocal tract.



I agree. The people who tell you that they don't pronunce a "ş", say so because that faint 'ş' coming from the letter R is nowhere near the 'ş' they would pronunce in _hayış_.


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## kenjoluma

Linguistically speaking, both R and Ş need the the very similar location for our tongue to hit. Both R and Ş are called coronal consonants. It means both pronunciations have something to do with using our tongue flexibly. Well, it's not the point. Point is, both sounds are generated in the similar part of our mouth in very similar manner. That's the point.

My guess? Thus, when a turkish speaker pronounces 'R' in the end, sometimes they 'accidentally' release more air than needed, which makes it a bit too 'fricative' to foreign ears. But still, this 'fricative' sound is acceptable enough for Turkish natives to perceive it as R.

It is a very typical situation that linguists call 'allophone'. And when it comes down to 'allophone', native speakers can be the last ones to discern the phenomenon. (Well, that's the definition of 'allophone')

As a Turkish learner myself for more than 18 months (on and off), I have to say 'yes' to this. Yes, Turkish people! Some of you once in a while pronounce R just like Ş. It is SO true. But all we have to know as a language learner is, one pronunciation is a wide spectrum rather than an exact spot. Although we, language learners, have to hit the very center of it to be safe, natives are always bit off. We should bear that in mind all the time.


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## Black4blue

When you say the letter *"r"* at the end of the word slightly, your breath goes out. So it is possible to hear a sound like *"ch"* sound in German which is symbolized as */ç/* in IPA. But of course it isn't the pronounciation of *R*.


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## dawar

I'm living in Latvia for 2 years and I still can't pronounce the soft K (ķ) in this language. Need to listen more and more and more and more and I believe one day you will understand how to pronounce it correctly. I keep trying, even if some days I want to give up with this demoniac ķ letter 

Good luck with learning turkish and thank you for your nice words about the country.


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## lincocin

Thanks to everyone. Your comments are really helpful. Thanks to whom taught me allophone which I've never heard of before. and I agree that R sound was not exact same with "sh" and the allophone of "R" could have made big difference only because I am a foreign speaker.

Of course I am just a student, I don't want to argue with native speakers about pronunciation. I just wanted to figure it out that what makes me hear soft "s" sound from lar or dir sometimes and to correct it. 

Honestly, I still feel "lar" or "dir" sound like "lash" or "dish" but at least in speaking, I could try to say more correctly from now on.

I asked this question to my own people who live in Turkey now and they also said they haven't heard of "sh" sounds. at that moment, it just hit upon me that the Microphone might be the problem. every source I've heard is through microphone which tend to magnify breathing sound. I've never heard from Turkish face to face before while those persons I've said have been doing.


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## ancalimon

People tend to make R sound a bit more like Ş when the sentence ends with a R.


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## Bobcats

I don't wanna start another discussion here but, I have never, _ever_ heard something like that. Also, if you hear the /ʃ/ sound in "hayır", then "thought" and "fought" are homophones in English. I'm writing all of these because according to the comments here, it seems like Turkish language or Turkish people has a problem!


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## Rallino

Bobcats said:


> I don't wanna start another discussion here but, I have never, _ever_ heard something like that. Also, if you hear the /ʃ/ sound in "hayır", then "thought" and "fought" are homophones in English. I'm writing all of these because according to the comments here, it seems like Turkish language or Turkish people has a problem!



Most people indeed pronunce the final R's with a little ʃ into it. It's not exactly /hajɯʃ/, but they don't pronunce a correct /hajɯɾ/ either. If you have never heard it, you were probably not paying attention; because there are _*a lot*_ of people who do that, including news reporters and actors.


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## Black4blue

It is not a problem. I mean it is something natural. And it doesn't happen only in Turkish. It might be heard in any language. Like I said in my comment:



Black4blue said:


> When you say the letter *"r"* at the end of the word slightly, your breath goes out. So it is possible to hear a sound like *"ch"* sound in German which is symbolized as */ç/* in IPA. But of course it isn't the pronounciation of *R*.


 
I think it sounds better and cooler. But /hajɯɾ/ would sound really awkward.


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## Rallino

Black4blue said:


> It is not a problem. I mean it is something natural. And it doesn't happen only in Turkish. It might be heard in any language. Like I said in my comment:
> 
> I think it sounds better and cooler. But /hajɯɾ/ would sound really awkward.



Indeed you are right. It's certainly standard Turkish.  Even though this shouldn't happen, the languages evolve, and what is considered an error in one era, can be accepted to be totally correct in the next generation. Nowadays if you don't inject a small dozage of ş into your final r, it sounds totally bizarre.


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## acemi

Ah, the r 
I can also hear something similar to ş with the final r sometimes/some people.. But only similar.   

The r is 'voiced' when you stop the vocal chords but still have the articulation of the 'r' [be it deliberate or just slow to release] and still have air flowing through. There is a sound from the air passing  through the mouth.   
Ş is created through airflow, it is a voiceless fricative. Fricatives tend to have the same quality from the turbulence of the air. The  voiceless 'r' has that quality but does sound different from the ş  though because the articulation of the tongue is different.  

Hope that helps.


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## ns2011

Hi everyone, I am new to the forum and very glad to find this thread 
Just the fact that the first post was made in 2009 and still being read and responded until now shows what an interesting phenomenon this is. 
I have only started learning this language one month ago, and remembered reading in one of the first literatures I saw about the letter 'r' and obviously had no idea what they were talking about. Until I found a self-learning website that has audio examples of the vocabulary. There were two persons reading the words - one man who always pronounced the letter 'r' as it is although not strongly -- and a woman who quite frequently made these additional 'sz' sounds after a soft 'r' -- ah, I thought this must be what the first website was refering to. 
Then later as I was listening to songs, the singer actually did both... he made the 'sz' sound after the word 'haber' but made none after 'beraber'. Hmm... But I wouldn't know if this is the norm or just an accent from a certain area or what. ...and of course have no clue if I should even adopt the 'sz' -- I guess it is safest to just leave it  The more I learn this language, the more I love it... Big hugs to all...


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## Tangriberdi

Foreigners perceive Turkish "r" in the end of a word as sh or zh in many cases, especially when vowel before "r " is e or i.
You know there is a r to z transition in the past of Turkic in which proto Turkic r turned in to common Turkic z. Kör became köz and then Göz, ar became az, yür became yüz etc.. in transition from proto Turkic to common Turkic... Now;  Emir, Esir, Eser, Gelir, Yer, Bir...  the " r" sound may be not pronunced  properly in many cases, people may be pronouncing it somewaht different, they  blow it...A similar process to the one seen in proto Turkic is highly possible to be taking place with Turkish "r", which we are not aware of.


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## Jansay

farukyazici said:


> "Hayır" is not pronounced as "Hayesh" or anything like that. You can hear it from the link. *Some people pronounce it as if there are two a's(Haayır) which is completely wrong.*



It's not "completely wrong"; it's colloquial. We don't spell the word "hayır" as "hâyır" or "haayır" but sometimes we pronounce it like that. Turkish isn't always a language that is spoken exactly as it's written.


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## obscaenvs

The word-final 'r' in Turkish is often voiceless as opposed to the usual trilled and voiced 'r'. This makes it resemble "ş". This is all in "Turkish grammar" by Geoffrey Lewis.


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