# pronunciation: -shire



## DearPrudence

Hello everyone
(1st question in that Only English forum, I'm a bit nervous)

How do you pronounce '*Yorshire'*? I've seen it was a /schwa/.
But then, how do you pronounce '*Lancashire*'? I heard it pronounced with the same sound as 'ear', which I thought was the correct pronounciation but then I think I heard it pronounced like 'Yorkshire' with a schwa.
So how do you pronounce it?

Sorry for this question, more a confirmation than a question.
Thanks.


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## Le Pamplemousse

I believe "Yorkshire" is pronounced with a schwa at the end (at least every time I've heard it).  As for "Lancashire", I'm not sure.  We should wait for a BE specialist.


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## panjandrum

This is tricky.
Have you seen the thread in Cultural Discussions about how people pronounce foreign place-names?
Well, unless we get a native Yorkshire and Lancashire poster, we are working a little in the dark.

I agree with the schwa and shear versions of shire that have been suggested so far - but only because I have heard those versions.
If I was saying them myself the pronunciation would depend entirely on the context.
If I was telling you that I was going to Yorkshire, or Lancashire for my holidays, both would get a fully-pronounced vowel - rhyming with tyre and hire.
If I was talking about Yorkshire Relish to put on my Lancashire Hotpot, both would be schwas.

Welcome to English-Only Dear Prudence, please don't feel nervous


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## cirrus

My village is close to the border of both.  They are both pronounced with a schwa.


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## Aupick

I was born in Lancashire and pronounce both with a schwa.


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## davidl243

Aupick said:
			
		

> I was born in Lancashire and pronounce both with a schwa.


 
"Schwa"??? Of course not being from either place I am in no place to disagree, but i can't say i have ever heard anyone, from there or elsewhere, say "Yorkschwa" - where does the "w" come from?? 
Anyway, unless DearPrudence was wanting to pronounce "Yorkshire" like the locals, i believe standard pronunciation is "shur"...


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## panjandrum

Would you use the same schwa pronunciation for the last word in a sentence? I'm asking out of curiousity, not to disagree It's just that over here we often give full value to vowels that you would "schwa".

Schwa = The central vowel sound shown as an upside-down e, typically occurring in weakly stressed syllables, as in the final syllable of ‘sofa’ and the first syllable of ‘along’;


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## davidl243

My apologies, i misunderstood you, i wasn't aware that "schwa" was the name for upside-down e - i thought that you were writing it as it was pronounced, ie York-sh-w-a...that's what confused me so much!!! To be fair i do pronounce the final 'r', but i shall still be helping myself to a large slice of humble pie...Sorry guys


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## panjandrum

Very understandable - schwa gets tossed around here a little carelessly. 

And of course, like davidl, I will insist on pronouncing the final r no matter what the vowel sounds like.  I had completely forgotten the rhotic/non-rhotic stuff when I was thinking about this question.  Now that davidl has reminded me, I really understand what cirrus and Aupick are saying.

For people like me who need to voice both of the "r"s in Yorkshire, the vowel sound of ...shire almost has to be voiced clearly when the county name comes at the end of a sentence.


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## cirrus

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Very understandable - schwa gets tossed around here a little carelessly.
> 
> And of course, like davidl, I will insist on pronouncing the final r no matter what the vowel sounds like. I had completely forgotten the rhotic/non-rhotic stuff when I was thinking about this question. Now that davidl has reminded me, I really understand what cirrus and Aupick are saying.
> 
> For people like me who need to voice both of the "r"s in Yorkshire, the vowel sound of ...shire almost has to be voiced clearly when the county name comes at the end of a sentence.


 
Given the yorkshireman's reputation for economy there's no way you'd get Rs thrown in for nowt.  "Yawkshuh" is about your lot.


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## DearPrudence

Oh, and I've realized quite late that I've forgotten to ask about 'Hampshire'. Some people even pronounce it like the sound in /fire/. How are you supposed to pronounce it?

(and sorry about the schwa, I just don't know how to type it)
(and sorry again, I've realized I've mispelled 'pronunciation' (as usual, I think I'll never get it right))


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## timpeac

I pronounce them all to rhyme with "ear" - the schwa pronunciation would be considered "posh" in a speaker from my (southern England) region, I would say.


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## stranger in your midst

Which is the correct pronounciation of 'shire' in, for example, 'Youkshire'. Does 'shire' become 'sheer', or does it retain the same sound as in the single word 'shire' ?

In Scotland, we tend to retain the same pronunciation, e.g. 'Aberdeenshire', not 'Aberdeen_sheer_', or 'Perthsire', not 'Perth_sheer_'.

What is the AE view on this ?


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## B.B.James

Hi

I think that in standard English the pronunciation should always be like the 'shir' in 'shirt' however there are regional differences.  

The pronunciation 'sheer' is pre-eminent in London and surrounds and well demonstrated by Chris Tarrant when introducing his Who Wants To Be A Millionaire contestants and the counties they hail from.

In American English I believe the pronunciation is more like the 'shire' used in 'Shire horses' ie rhyming with 'choir'.  Although if our friends from across the Pond have any drastic regional variants too please let us know  

BB


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## Kelly B

Neither, if it is a name or word we've adopted as "American". We pronounce it to rhyme with herd, earth, or fur: see here for the symbol and pronunciation. It gives the impression that vowel is dropped completely: Yorkshr terrier; Lancashr, Pennsylvania.

Edit: on the other hand, if it is the name of a city in Great Britain and we're accustomed to a particular pronunciation from TV or movies, we use that: I'd guess that Nottinghamshire rhymes with fire.


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## jabogitlu

To me, Yorkshire is pronounced York - Shire, as are the others.   However, as Kelly stated, a yorkshire terrier is pronounced yorkshr.

One big variant is Worcestershire sauce, which is routinely pronounced (at least in my region) as though it were spelled "Oystershr" sauce.  And, of course, Worcester in Massachusettes is pronounced "Wooster."


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## panjandrum

jabogitlu said:


> [...]
> One big variant is Worcestershire sauce, which is routinely pronounced (at least in my region) as though it were spelled "Oystershr" sauce. And, of course, Worcester in Massachusettes is pronounced "Wooster."


That would be Wooster as we pronounce Wooster Sauce (I pronounced it yesterday when checking on our supply in advance of the Boxing Day Chilli.)


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## Hockey13

This is the way I pronounce it:

Yorkshire --> Yorksher

Shire --> Shyer

The word alone is pronounced differently than when it is pronounced at the end of something.


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## gaer

Hockey13 said:


> This is the way I pronounce it:
> 
> Yorkshire --> Yorksher
> 
> Shire --> Shyer
> 
> The word alone is pronounced differently than when it is pronounced at the end of something.


I only know "Yorksher pudding"!

Gaer


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## germinal

gaer said:


> I only know "Yorksher pudding"!
> 
> Gaer


 
That's what we call it in Yorkshire.   

.


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## stranger in your midst

Thank you all.


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## Hela

Question to British people:

How do you pronounce the vowel phoneme "ire" of Lancashire, Shropshire, etc?  it is /aiə/ in standard or "Queen's" English and /ə/ in other accents ?

Many thanks,
Hela


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## Rover_KE

'Lanca-sher', 'Shrop-sher' etc in any circumstances.

Rover


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## emma42

There are several different pronunciations of "shire", but I would say, in received pronunciation, it's pronounced "shuh".  Here are some words with exactlythe same "uh" vowel sound:

Money [mun-ee]
Sun
London [lun-dun]
Hut
Rough [ruff]

If, however, you just use the word "shire", as in "From the hilltop, he looked out across the shires", then the vowel sound is pronounced like "eye".


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## Loob

Hi Hela

As far as I know, all non-rhotic varieties of BrE have /ə/ in the suffix and /aiə/ in the stand-alone word "shire". Rhotic varieties have /ər/ and /air/ respectively.

By the way, "standard English" is a dialect rather than an accent: it can be spoken with any accent.  Perhaps you were thinking of "Received Pronunciation"?


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## ewie

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I've heard Lancastrians pronounce it /'læŋki∫ɪə/ [lanky-sheer], though not all that often nowadays. My own pronunciation of the word is /'læŋki∫ə/ [lanky-shuh], which I reckon is fairly standard in Lancashire and surrounding areas.
My mother (a Scot who went to Elocution Lessons in the 1940s/50s) tends to pronounce _shire _as /'∫aɪə/ [shire] regardless of where it is ~ no idea why.


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## Scalloper

To me it would it would be /∫ɐ/ for the suffix and /ˈ∫ɛI.ɐ/ for the word.


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## rygi

I presume it is the case with some compounds (though I don't know the rule yet). Triphthongs and diphthongs become reduced to a vowel or to a schwa. e.g.: (according to OED transcription)
shire /ʃaɪə/ - Lancashire /'læŋkəʃə/
Christ /kraɪst/ - Christmas /'krɪsməs/
break /breɪk/ - breakfast /'brekfəst/
broad /brəʊd/ - Broadway /'brɔ:dweɪ/


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## Matching Mole

I agree with Ewie on the "sheer" (rhotic or otherwise). Isn't that how John Lennon pronounces it in "A Day In The Life"? You can also hear an expert from the BBC's Pronunciation Unit pronounce the suffix as "sheer" whilst discussing this very issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/con.../11/pronouncing_nottinghamshire_feature.shtml

In my experience -shire (suffix) is most often pronounced unstressed (as Ewie pronounces it, and as I do), but it is not uncommon to hear it with secondary stress.


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## LV4-26

So no one says /'læŋkə∫ɪə/  (Lankuh-sheer) for Lancashire? 
(apart from me, that is )


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## Trouts!

I do LV!

People pronounce _shire_ very very differently.

I know I'd laugh at someone who said shy-er. (Sorry, im not risking the IPA today!)


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## Scalloper

I'd be most tempted to put a secondary stress on ones where  the root has more syllables, certainly not Yorksha but Northhampton-shire could get the whole word. It was John Lennon singing that part of A Day in the Life by the way.


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## Matching Mole

Thanks, Scalloper, Paul sang the other bit of the song, but it was indeed John who sang "Lancasheer".

LV4-26, you probably just missed my post, but "Lancasheer" is not at all uncommon.


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## LV4-26

Thanks, MM and Trouts
Yes, I only saw your post well after I had submitted mine and I got confused wth all those different versions Lanky-sheer vs Lanka-shuh, not to mention Lanka-shire.
I listened to A Day in The Life and realized Lennon said Lankuh-sheer as well.
(btw, Paul sang the middle eight).


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## katie_here

ewie said:


> Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I've heard Lancastrians pronounce it /'læŋki∫ɪə/ [lanky-sheer], though not all that often nowadays. My own pronunciation of the word is /'læŋki∫ə/ [lanky-shuh], which I reckon is fairly standard in Lancashire and surrounding areas.
> My mother (a Scot who went to Elocution Lessons in the 1940s/50s) tends to pronounce _shire _as /'∫aɪə/ [shire] regardless of where it is ~ no idea why.


 
I hear Lanca  shire (shy) on TV, or even Lanca sheer.   I always take it that the person doesn't know how to pronounce it right, because it doesn't sound right at all.  

I say Lanca sher,  but then I do live in that fair county.


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## nzfauna

I say both ways, as in original post.


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## Scalloper

Just this morning I was listening to a CD ("The Bairns" by Rachel Unthank) and was reminded of this page. The song "Fareweel Liberty" has a pronunciation of Hexamshire as /'hɛksəmˌ∫ɛI.ɐ/, rhyming with "fire". Googling found a folk song, "The Hexhamshire lass" that does the same thing, and also with "mire". As it has not been an official county for centuries, it's not going to turn up in conversation very often but I wondered if, when it did, it's pronounced in that way? I wondered if, with unofficial counties, the suffix is seem as in some way separate, like "Hexham shire". It doesn't work for Hallamshire, though.


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## Hela

Thank you all for your posts. So I conclude that /lankashuh, yo:kshuh/ (where "shire" is pronounced with a schwa sound) is the most common pronunciation in England.


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## selavy59

LV4-26 said:


> So no one says /'læŋkə∫ɪə/  (Lankuh-sheer) for Lancashire?
> (apart from me, that is )



And me. But I'm just an ignorant southerner.


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## Hela

For those who pronounce Lancashire /'læŋki∫iə/ would you do the same for Yorkshire, Shropshire and other counties?
In what kind of accent do we pronounce it /'læŋki∫aiə/ ?

All the best


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## katie_here

Lanca-sher, Shrop-sher, York-sher  Warwickshire (Warick -sher)


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## LV4-26

katie_here said:


> Lanca-sher,[...]


Katie, while trying to answer Hela's post #20, I realised it wasn't that simple, especially as it appears the second syllable (_ca_) is also subject to variations.

So, I'd like you to clarify something. When you and Rover write Lanca, do you mean Lanka-  or Lankuh- ? , i.e. /'læŋkæ/ or /'læŋkə/

As a reminder, ewie also mentionned Lanky-  /'læŋki/ as a possibility (Lancastrians).


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## Loob

Hela said:


> In what kind of accent do we pronounce it /'læŋki∫aiə/ ?


 
As Jean-Michel says, you're now raising two isssues: the final vowel and the middle vowel.

Taking the final vowel first, I can't think of any variety of British English which routinely pronounces the suffix to rhyme with "fire". Except, of course, ewie's mum and Scalloper's folk-singers (I've heard it in folk-songs too)

NZEnglish evidently allows it.

As regards the middle vowel, I'm afraid I don't know about the distribution of /'læŋki/ vs /'læŋkə/.  I say the second.


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## ewie

As far as I can remember I've only ever heard /i/ being used for the middle vowel in Lancashire itself. (I don't know if you're aware, J-M, but Lancashire dialect is often ~ humorously and affectionately ~ known as _Lanky Twang_, but whether that followed on from the pronunciation /'læŋki∫ə/ or vice versa, I don't know.)

EDIT: I don't recall _ever_ hearing /'læŋkæ∫ə/, sorry.


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## LV4-26

ewie said:


> EDIT: I don't recall _ever_ hearing /'læŋkæ∫ə/, sorry.


Thanks, ewie. My doubt came from the fact that Rover and Katie didn't use the IPA and wrote "Lanca" (where I wrote "Lankuh")

Indeed, I think it isn't very likely to have a /æ/ on an unstressed middle syllable.  Still, you never know.


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## gasman

Perhaps the variety of pronunciations for one word is more due to the local dialect of the speaker than anything else. Certainly, as one born in London, raised in Glasgow, worked in Durham, and  living in Canada for some 50 years, I  find pronunciations very varied indeed. Whether a "received" usage is still of matter I find difficult to believe.


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## ewie

LV4-26 said:


> Indeed, I think it isn't very likely to have a /æ/ on an unstressed middle syllable. Still, you never know.


No, J-M, you just _never know_ with English


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## zigaramsak

I was waiting for a bus in Miami one evening last year together with one very sweet girl. She said she was from Yorkshire. After being alone for one week in the USA I liked the way she pronounced it (not just that, everything) so much that I'll never forget it. And she pronounced shire like fire. I was totally surprised when I came to New Hampshire this year...


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## Loob

I think she'd probably learnt that that was the easiest way to make references to her native county intelligible in Miami.

She certainly wouldn't have said 'shire-to-rhyme-with-fire' at home in the UK


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## George French

Without a deep understanding of the phonetics I can only add that the pronounciation that is used for the word "Shire", meaning county, in my dictionary has only 1 varient. Thus "Sh + ire"

In my English when I come to pronouncing the Shire at the end of the County(shire)'s name it come out differently depending on company or context or the number of beers consumed.

It varies from the a short sh + uh to a long sh + ire. It depends so heavily on the context and the backgound of the person speaking. There are some 50+ million different varients in the UK and they are all understood by one another! What a wonderful thing the human brain is....

GF..


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## Gwan

Loob said:


> As Jean-Michel says, you're now raising two isssues: the final vowel and the middle vowel.
> 
> Taking the final vowel first, I can't think of any variety of British English which routinely pronounces the suffix to rhyme with "fire". Except, of course, ewie's mum and Scalloper's folk-singers (I've heard it in folk-songs too)
> 
> NZEnglish evidently allows it.
> 
> As regards the middle vowel, I'm afraid I don't know about the distribution of /'læŋki/ vs /'læŋkə/. I say the second.


 
Hmmm I don't think "NZEnglish allows it". I would consider any 'shyer-rhymes-with-fire' pronunciation a case of not knowing the correct pronunciation. No offence... 
My parents are from the fair shire in question, so I've grown up knowing its pronunciation, but I frequently hear -shire mispronounced in this way by non-BEers.


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## Loob

Gwan said:


> Hmmm I don't think "NZEnglish allows it". I would consider any 'shyer-rhymes-with-fire' pronunciation a case of not knowing the correct pronunciation. No offence...
> My parents are from the fair shire in question, so I've grown up knowing its pronunciation, but I frequently hear -shire mispronounced in this way by non-BEers.


Hi Gwan!

I was basing my earlier NZ-related comment on NZF's comment that he would say it both ways.  I have no independent knowledge of NZEnglish (although I was lucky enough to vist your amazingly beautiful country some years ago)

I guess the answer is: the more familiar you are with the way Brits pronounce county names, the more likely you are to pronounce them the Brit way...


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## Gwan

Loob said:


> Hi Gwan!
> 
> I was basing my earlier NZ-related comment on NZF's comment that he would say it both ways. I have no independent knowledge of NZEnglish (although I was lucky enough to vist your amazingly beautiful country some years ago)
> 
> I guess the answer is: the more familiar you are with the way Brits pronounce county names, the more likely you are to pronounce them the Brit way...


 
Yes, I've been corrupted by exposure to BE at the source 
I try not to be overly-prescriptive, but as far as placenames go, I think it's "do as the locals do", although there's some debate in this case, obviously. I think saying "NZ English allows it" is like pronouncing something like Whakatane as Wokkatain and saying "British English allows it"... But that's just my two cents!


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## Loob

You're right, Gwan: I'll be more careful in future


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## Will5

Coming from Lancashire myself I find that people with strong accents say it: Lan-ka-sh*i*re but most people say it: lan-ka-shur.


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## zigaramsak

Loob said:


> I think she'd probably learnt that that was the easiest way to make references to her native county intelligible in Miami.
> 
> She certainly wouldn't have said 'shire-to-rhyme-with-fire' at home in the UK


 
It's possible. Or maybe there's some very remote hamlet in Yorkshire where they really talk like that. I wish I could ask her...


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## jónico

We Yanks get laughed at all the time because of these -shires, so I don't dare to tell you that, if you're ever in Chicago, feel free to say Lancastershire just as we say the name of that anchovy-sauce, Worcestershire: Wére-chest-er-shì-er (although we mostly just mumble it in embarrassment knowing it's not kosher).

Now as for Broadway, it's definitely Broadway /'brɔ:dweɪ/ east of the Mississippi, and /bra:dwei/ to the west, where they don't have that open -o- /ɔ/  sound so much.


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## rainbow84uk

Lanky-sherr for me (strong r's in my little corner of that county!)

Lauren x


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## ruffy

I know that the pronunciation for the districts and regions in Scotland from a central-Scottish English dialect is pronounced generally as shire (to rhyme with fire) (_shy-err_) e.g. Stirlingshire, Aberdeenshire, Berwickshire. However, this changes to a pronunciation of 'shur' when it comes to English counties.

There is indeed great variation in its pronunciation throughout the UK.


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## susanna76

Hi there,

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere. Dictionaries give [*oks*-ferd-sheer, -sher] for Oxfordshire. Which is the pronunciation of the people who live there, though?

Thanks!


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## Alxmrphi

The one the dictionary says.

The "sheer" one you mentioned instantly conjures up an image of how people speak in the South West, so that's representative of that area, but Oxfordshire is on the other side of the country so would be the ordinary pronunciation. So someone from the SW would probably have that pronunciation about it, but everyone else (including the people that live there) would have the more standard pronunciation.

Wikipedia actually has a map of this (I get more impressed with Wikipiedia every day) which you can see here.
The orange parts are what I was referring to before (South West) and the red is the normal standard one.


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## ewie

If you can be arsed to care to read the whole of this thread, Alex, you'll find that the situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as all that


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## Alxmrphi

ewie said:


> If you can be arsed to care to read the whole of this thread, Alex, you'll find that the situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as all that


Yeah I've just seen that the threads have been merged (your comment could look quite offensive without other people knowing I replied to a new posting in EO )
Anyway, in response............ it never is as clear-cut, nothing anyone says here is usually anything more than a generalisation anyway.

I just read through it. There are a few commentings hinting at alternatives, where we don't know where the speaker is actually from.
But overall, considering the English people that have responded, I don't think it's far off. Besides I was mainly thinging about the end "r" more than the previous vowel.


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## ewie

Alxmrphi said:


> Yeah I've just seen that the threads have been merged (your comment could look quite offensive without other people knowing I replied to a new posting in EO )


 Oops, I'll rephrase that.
Today's thread has been merged with a couple of previous ones on the same subject: A whole gamut of conflicting (and seemingly rather random) opinions above seem to suggest that the situation isn't nearly as clear-cut as _Wikipedia_ thinks


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## Alxmrphi

I think most (non-rhotic) people would have -[ʃə] as the pronunciation, which links to also -[ʃɪə] and possibly -[ʃiə] as standard variations.
But when you're going to have your full [i:] or the NEAR diphthong, it's more than likely going to be in the rhotic dialects. That was my understanding, and seemed to fit in nicely with that map (which of course is not a rule, but a generalisation).

People have relatives from different parts of the country, sometimes children move to a new area after keeping their local accent. Sometimes adults move and locate themselves in different areas. No study can encompass all the discrepancies so you have to go on broad generalisations, and these sort of studies would often discount idiosyncratic instances that didn't fit the wider pattern of that speech-environment, that sort of is taken for granted when doing this sort of thing


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## PaulQ

I pronounce counties either York shuh /ʃʌ/  or, rarely but not never, York-shire/ʃaɪər/ (as in "I was filled with *ire*.")


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## Alxmrphi

PaulQ said:


> I pronounce counties either York shuh /ʃʌ/  or, rarely but not never, York-shire/ʃaɪər/ (as in "I was filled with *ire*.")


What area are you from Paul (if you don't mind me asking)?
You've put in some /r/ symbols I've noticed in other threads, which is consistent with what I thought about the long vowels being used with rhotic accents (which is just a minor speculation at the moment) so wanted to see if you can tell me which county your accent is consistent with (i.e. where you were when growing up)?

Not wishing to hijack the thread for my own personal survey, but I think it'd be good to be specific about generalisations and see what results we can find.


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## natkretep

I just wanted to say that because all the Scottish -shires (Perthshire, Aberdeenshire, etc.) end like _tyre_ or _fire_, I hear some Scottish speakers say the English -shires (Oxfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire, etc.) the same way. (I know Ewie's mum has been mentioned, and there have been some Scottish responses.)


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## Scholiast

Good Afternoon

Anyone who has ever heard that pre-eminent Yorkshireman, Geoffrey Boycott, on the radio knows perfectly well that 'is mum would 've " 'it that ball with a stick of rhubarb", on 'er oan ground in Yorksh*eeer.*


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## Alxmrphi

All the Brits on forvo pronounce it the same way.
Scholiast... is that pronouncation you mention similar to the "Female-United States" pronunciation?
That's very similar to the SW England pronunciation I was describing before.


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## PaulQ

Alxmrphi said:


> What area are you from Paul (if you don't mind me asking)?


South Derbyshire to 20, then East Yorks to 40, then Hertfordshire 20 yrs to present (I've just noticed, every 20 years, I move... I wonder where I'll be when I'm 100...)


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