# Hindi/Urdu and Persian: tautology



## panjabigator

Greetings:

I learned a wonderful saying the other day: خرشید آمد بہ دلیل آفتاب.  Any idea of how to say tautology in Hindi/Urdu or Persian?

Faylasoof once suggested تکرار if I'm not mistaken.

PG


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## searcher123

panjabigator said:


> Greetings:
> 
> I learned a wonderful saying the other day: خرشید آمد بہ دلیل آفتاب.  Any idea of how to say tautology in Hindi/Urdu or Persian?
> 
> Faylasoof once suggested تکرار if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> PG



First of all, the correct sentience in Persian is "آفتاب آمد دليل آفتاب".

I don't know what is your real question. If I be understood you right, the meaning of tautology is تكرار مكررات or توضيح واضحات


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## panjabigator

Sorry, I was a bit unclear.  The statement is a tautology, 1) which I wanted to share 2) confirm that it is tautologous, and 3) serve as a segue into my larger question.

Thank you for the correction, but I believe I heard خرشید in that sentence.  I'll double check, but I'll take your word for it.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Greetings:
> 
> I learned a wonderful saying the other day: خرشید آمد بہ دلیل آفتاب.  Any idea of how to say tautology in Hindi/Urdu or Persian?
> 
> Faylasoof once suggested تکرار if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> PG



Yes PG, تکرار is used in Urdu in this sense, but has another usage:

 تکرار_  takraar_ = tautology, repetition; altercation, argument.

 Another word is حَشْو which, really means _padding / stuffing_! 
 But tautology also functions as the same, hence حَشْو = tautology. 

 Interestingly, Urdu distinguishes between different forms of tautologies! These are:

 _7ashw-e-malii7_حَشْوِ مَلِیح = additional words / segments that act positivley on the beauty and elegance of speech.

 _7ashw-e-mutawassiT_حَشوِ مُتَوَسِّط  = additional words / segments that neither add to nor take away the beauty and elegance of speech.

 _7ashw-e-qabii7  _حَشْوِ قَبِیح = additional words / segments that impact negatively on the beauty and elegance of speech.


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## panjabigator

Incredibly helpful!

I usually hear تکرار used for "argument" in Hindi and Urdu, but I know it mean "repetition" in Persian.  Is it common to say تکرار کرنا in Urdu to meanدوھرانا?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Incredibly helpful!
> 
> I usually hear تکرار used for "argument" in Hindi and Urdu, but I know it mean "repetition" in Persian.  Is it common to say تکرار کرنا in Urdu to meanدوھرانا?


True! That is how تکرار is used most of the time by us but actually it means repetition not  just in Farsi but also in Urdu. 

Not really! We say دوھرانا _dohraanaa _!


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## BP.

panjabigator said:


> ...
> I usually hear تکرار used for "argument" in Hindi and Urdu, but I know it mean "repetition" in Persian. ...


_
takraar _ for me doesn't primarily conjure up the image of an argument, although _behth o takraar_-بحث و تکرار- does. 

You might have heard the _saami3iin _in a _mushaa3ira _say _mukarrar mukarrar!_-مکرّر-: _again again!_.


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## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _
> takraar _ for me doesn't primarily conjure up the image of an argument, although _behth o takraar_-بحث و تکرار- does.


I understand that though I wouldn't intuitively use that phrase.  





> You might have heard the _saami3iin _in a _mushaa3ira _say _mukarrar mukarrar!_-مکرّر-: _again again!_.



Yes I have, and I was wondering if it was used in Persian.  Thanks!


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## Koozagar

takraar is used for 'insistence' however, and since sometimes an argument involves insistence on a certain point, 'takraar' is part of an argument but not the argument itself. ' aap baghair mantaq (logic) kai taqraar kiye jaa rahe hein'

takraar is also used for alliteration. for instance in:

Kharak sing kai kharaknay say kharakti hein khirkiyaan
khirkiyoN kai kharaknay sai kharakta hay kharak singh

there is takraar of 'kharak'.


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## panjabigator

Thanks for that Koozagar Bhai.   Love the Kharak Singh reference.


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## BP.

@PG here's Turkish for 'please repeat' - _lutfan tekraar edin_. Hope two of those words aren't unfamiliar to you.

@post 9: waah kyaa misaal talaash kar ke laa2e hae.n janaab.


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## Koozagar

@PG : Pleasure.
@BP : Daad ka shukriya.


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## Faylasoof

The Urdu usage of تكرار are many, tautology being one. The word has the Arabic root ك.ر.ر and the verb كرّ_ karra_ = to attack, which may explain why we have dispute / altercation etc, as one of the primary meanings of the word, apart from _tautology_. 

In Urdu, from the same root, we also use كرّار_  karraar_ = one who repeatedly attacks and _7ayder-e- karraar_حیدر كرّار = a lion that repeatedly attacks, used for a brave and fearless person is also the epithet of a 7th century figure in Islamic history. 
كرّ و فرّ = attack and retreat – used in Urdu with the  original Arabic meaning.
مكرّر = repeated, reiterated – from Arabic verbal form V. Same meaning in Urdu.

تكرار  = repetition, reiteration – _original meaning in Arabic but Urdu has an expanded usage; as follows_:

بحث، جھگڑا ،رد و کد،تو تو میں میں ; ضد،ہٹ; اصرار، تاکید ; دہرانا، بار بار کرنا، اعادہ کرنا; بازگشت; التجا، درخواست

_Tautology,  dispute, contention, wrangle; __repetition_;etc. 

 In certain contexts it can also mean _return, retreat, resumption_, _relapse_ OR _entreaty, petition, request, solicitation etc_.


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## panjabigator

> aap baghair mantaq (logic) kai taqraar kiye jaa rahe hein'



Koozagar bhai, I just noticed you wrote "ta*q*raar" and not "takraar."  I also thought "takraar" is feminine.  Is it 1) the same word and 2) masculine?


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## Koozagar

PG,
I apologize. Its takraar *تکرار* not taqraar تقرار and yes it is feminine.


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## panjabigator

Forgiven and thank you!


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