# I have my suitcase stolen



## stock1992

Hi, everyone. I have been wondering if the German language has any grammatical consternation that is equivalent to English _have/get + Object + Past Participle_.
For example, in German how can you say
a) I have my suitcase stolen.
< ... >


----------



## Frieder

Ich lasse meinen Koffer stehlen (doesn't make much sense though ...)

In case you meant "_my suitcase was stolen_": Mein Koffer wurde (mir) gestohlen.


----------



## se16teddy

stock1992 said:


> a) I have my suitcase stolen.


This can mean something like: _Ich erfahre/leide, dass mein Koffer gestohlen wird. _


----------



## Schlabberlatz

Or: "Mein Koffer wird gestohlen"





> 18. (mit Objekt und pperf zum Ausdruck des Passivs):
> I had my arm broken ich brach mir den Arm;
> he had a son born to him ihm wurde ein Sohn geboren;
> have a tooth out sich einen Zahn ziehen lassen
> have - Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch - WordReference.com


There are some more examples:





> 13. haben, dulden, zulassen:
> I won’t have it!, I am not having that! ich dulde es nicht!, ich will es nicht (haben);
> I won’t have it mentioned ich will nicht, dass es erwähnt wird;
> he wasn’t having any umg er ließ sich auf nichts ein
> …
> 17. (mit Objekt und pperf) lassen:
> I had a suit made ich ließ mir einen Anzug machen;
> they had him shot sie ließen ihn erschießen


----------



## manfy

se16teddy said:


> This can mean something like: _Ich erfahre/leide, dass mein Koffer gestohlen wird. _


... but that's unlikely in present tense,  isn't it? If it were in simple past, it would be my first interpretation.

oops,  "I had x stolen" may be pluperfect, actually!


----------



## JClaudeK

_"I had x stolen" > Mein Koffer wurde (mir) gestohlen._
or
Man stahl mir meinen Koffer.


----------



## manfy

JClaudeK said:


> _"I had x stolen" > Mein Koffer wurde (mir) gestohlen._
> or
> Man stahl mir meinen Koffer.



You're right!
"I had my suitcase stolen." can mean "My suitcase was stolen / had been stolen".

But now I'm not quite sure about the formal tense of "had x stolen". I'm leaning towards "had" as simple past of the verb and "stolen" as adjective.


----------



## Schlabberlatz

You can look at #4:





> 18. (mit Objekt und *pperf* zum Ausdruck des Passivs):
> I had my arm broken ich brach mir den Arm;


Past perfect should be "I *had had* my arm broken", if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## bearded

I don't know if it is  idiomatic, but perhaps Stock1992 meant ''I'm having my suitcase stolen'' / mein Koffer wird gerade gestohlen...
But I consider the phrase as ambiguous, like Frieder above (ich lasse meinen Koffer gerade stehlen).



manfy said:


> but that's unlikely in present tense, isn't it?


Anyhow, I'd like to know from English natives whether Stock's formulation (I have my suitcase stolen) can mean ''they always/usually steal my suitcase'', like in the following example: _I visit that town each year, but unfortunately there I (always) have my suitcase stolen._
It sounds poor speech anyway - to my non-English ears.


----------



## djweaverbeaver

Hi all, 

No offense, but it's clear to me that the poster is not a native English speaker (see also the misuse of 'consternation' = Bestürzung.  I think s/he perhaps meant 'constellation'.)

There isn't really enough context to know for sure what exactly s/he is trying to translate; however,  based on the paradigm given "_have/get + Object + Past Participle_", the sentence can have one of two meanings. 

The first one,  as @Frieder so rightly pointed out, could be rendered *Ich lasse meinen Koffer stehlen*, which, on its own, makes all of us scratch our heads in both languages because it seems like rather usual request. 

Without additional context, i think it's probably safe to assume that the sentence should most likely read *I had/got my suitcase stolen*. I think it's considered a type of passive construction. The emphasis is still on the process or action rather than on who performs it. I'd say the main difference between *I had/got my suitcase* *stolen* and *My suitcase got/was stolen* is that in the former sentence there is more emphasis on  the victim and on the terrible thing that befell them than the actual event itself. In this sense *to have/get something done* is always the result of something bad or negative. I think a past, perfect, or even infinite construction are more usual that the present, although @bearded man does provide an example for which the present tense makes sense.

Furthermore,@manfy, this construction is not an example of past perfect/pluperfect, for the simple reason that an object cannot come between the auxiliary verb and the participle in English.


----------



## elroy

se16teddy said:


> _Ich erfahre/leide, dass mein Koffer gestohlen wird. _


 I think you meant "erlebe"?  "Erfahre" means "find out, learn," and "leide" means "suffer."


----------



## manfy

I fear there's no perfect word for it in German. "Ich erlebe/erleide gerade, dass..." or "Mir widerfährt gerade der Diebstahl meines Koffers" can convey the sentiment of the English form, but all of them are quite unidiomatic. We usually express that nuance of surprise or the emotional hardship caused by the event with various emphasizer particles, e.g. Da wird mir doch glatt gerade eben der Koffer geklaut.


----------



## elroy

manfy said:


> all of them are quite unidiomatic.


 I agree - my point was just that "erfahre" and "leide" mean something else.


----------



## JClaudeK

Zur Not könnte man sagen: 
Ich musste miterleben/ hilflos zusehen/ hinnehmen, wie/ dass mir der Koffer gestohlen wurde.


----------



## djweaverbeaver

We mustn't assume that the English phrase means that the victim was an eyewitness to the theft. I think that in all likelihood and in most cases,  the victim wasn't aware of it until after the fact. Is *Mir wurde mein Koffer gestohlen* not good enough?


----------



## manfy

djweaverbeaver said:


> Is *Mir wurde mein Koffer gestohlen* not good enough?



Yes, it _is_ good enough!
So, if we go back to the original question "I have been wondering if the German language has any grammatical consternation that is equivalent to English _have/get + Object + Past Participle_.", it means that the answer is yes and no; it depends on the function of this construction in the source sentence:

* "I had my car repainted last week" with meaning of "I had something done to me or my things (by somebody else) after _I_ instructed them to do so", German offers the form with "lassen": "Ich *ließ* letzte Woche mein Auto neu lackieren."

* "I had my car stolen last week" with meaning of "I had something happen to me (that affected me greatly)", German doesn't offer an equivalent structure.
"Man hat mir letzte Woche mein Auto gestohlen" may seem syntactically similar to the English version, but it is normal perfect tense in German and it does not emphasize the nuance of being greatly affected. "Mir wurde letzte Woche mein Auto gestohlen." is semantically closer, because "mir" in the first spot and the often redundant use of possessive "mein Auto" do convey a sense of being affected.

[edit: completing description to avoid ambiguity (the underlined part)]


----------



## bearded

djweaverbeaver said:


> No offense, but it's clear to me that the poster is not a native English speaker


No offense, but that is/was clear to all of us from the start, since he indicates that his mother-tongue is Japanese.


----------



## Schlabberlatz

djweaverbeaver said:


> We mustn't assume that the English phrase means that the victim was an eyewitness to the theft. I think that in all likelihood and in most cases, the victim wasn't aware of it until after the fact.


The original sentence is in present tense:





stock1992 said:


> a) I have my suitcase stolen.


----------



## djweaverbeaver

@Schlabberlatz, this changes nothing about what I said.


----------



## Schlabberlatz

Of course – if you only look at the version in past tense.

What about the version in present tense? Is it possible?





bearded man said:


> I don't know if it is idiomatic, but perhaps Stock1992 meant ''I'm having my suitcase stolen'' / mein Koffer wird gerade gestohlen...
> But I consider the phrase as ambiguous, like Frieder above (ich lasse meinen Koffer gerade stehlen).
> 
> Anyhow, I'd like to know from English natives whether Stock's formulation (I have my suitcase stolen) can mean ''they always/usually steal my suitcase'', like in the following example: _I visit that town each year, but unfortunately there I (always) have my suitcase stolen._
> It sounds poor speech anyway - to my non-English ears.


----------



## bearded

Actually, in #10 dj already gave an affirmative response:


djweaverbeaver said:


> bearded man does provide an example for which the present tense makes sense.



PS. Now why that is written in blue, I don't know.


----------



## Schlabberlatz

OK, I should have looked at it more closely. But what about the version in present progressive tense? (Or maybe I should say "with progressive aspect".) Is that also possible? And could "I have my suitcase stolen" have the same meaning as the "progressive version", or do you need the progressive form here when you want to say that the action is happening right now?


----------



## bearded

Hopefully some of our Engl.native friends will decide to enlighten us also on this point.


----------



## djweaverbeaver

As I've already stated, anything is possible; however, the present tense is drastically less common than the past tense in any aspect, mostly because people don't notice that they've been robbed until after the fact, and how common is it to be robbed more than once? I'd say it's pretty infrequent most places.


----------



## Schlabberlatz

Thanks!


----------



## manfy

djweaverbeaver said:


> As I've already stated, anything is possible; however, the present tense is drastically less common than the past tense in any aspect, mostly because people don't notice that they've been robbed until after the fact, and how common is it to be robbed more than once? I'd say it's pretty infrequent most places.



 

I think if I happened to witness the theft of my luggage, I'd be inclined to yell: "Hey, stop! *That guy* is stealing my suitcase!", i.e. instinctively I'd try to draw attention to the thief, so that some bystanders can help or interfere.
When it's over, the statement "*My suitcase* was stolen (just now)." is kind of neutral and - if anything - puts emphasis on the suitcase, whereas in "*I *(just) had my suitcase stolen", the emphasis is clearly on me, the victim.

In other words, even _if_ you happen to witness an event in progress that is affecting you, it is awkward to point that out at _that_ point in time. This expression of being affected with "I/he/she had something happen..." works much better in past tense, at a time when it cannot be prevented or changed any more and when this fact of being affected has been realized.


----------



## elroy

I think this thread got way more complicated than it needed to be, and the original poster may feel helplessly confused at this point. 

The question was whether German has an construction equivalent to "to have + [noun] + [past participle]."  The suitcase sentence was just an example - one that was probably not the best example and served to convolute this thread. 

The English construction corresponds to different German constructions, depending on the meaning:

I had my walls painted. = Ich habe meine Wände streichen lassen. 
I had all my ideas shot down. = Alle meine Ideen wurden abgewiesen.

Two different uses of the English construction, corresponding to different German constructions: (1) "lassen" + infinitive, and (2) passive voice.


----------

