# FR: I was told



## garavak

Hello, I'm having a hard time understanding why J'ai été dit is incorrect and On m'a dit is correct. Could someone explain this to me? I know the former is incorrect and is never used, but I don't understand why. ALso, does th esame hold true for "She was told?". And help will be appreciated

CHuck


----------



## Maître Capello

The answer is indeed fairly simple: _dire_ requires an *indirect* object for the person being addressed, but the passive voice is only possible for direct objects.

_Quelqu'un a dit une phrase _(COD)_ à Marc_ (COI)_.
Une phrase a été dite à Marc. 
Marc a été dit une phrase.  → On a dit une phrase à Marc. 

I was told that. → On m'a dit cela.
She was told that. → On lui a dit cela.
_


----------



## axolotl:)

This is a sentence where, whatever was being done to you, was obviously, logically being done _by a person_. The construction using the mysterious unnamed agent 'on' shows that you were the recipient of an action by _someone_, the 'on', and hence fits in more logically than the other method.

What I will also say is this: in my [limited!!] experience, the French don't seem to like our style passive as much, as it is a bit clumsy-sounding to them. They will usually try to substitute the 'on' construction often, as it is simply smoother; it's kinda a cultural preference thing i suppose

plus what Maitre Capello said hehe!


----------



## garavak

Thank you so very much. This helps to clear things up!

Chuck


----------



## cloudrookie

Yes - I'm afraid "J'ai été dit" literally means "I was said", as if you were a personified sentence uttered by someone in the past!

-->  Capello's nailed the explanation, of course.


----------



## Aoyama

> I'm afraid "J'ai été dit" literally means "I was said", as if you were a personified sentence uttered by someone in the past!


Not really. "Je lui ai dit" would mean "I told him/her". The problem is the passive form here which requires, in French, a different structure (see Me.C. examples).
To make things simple : "I was told" becomes in French "someone told me"


----------



## cloudrookie

Aoyama said:


> Not really. "Je lui ai dit" would mean "I told him/her". The problem is the passive form here which requires, in French, a different structure (see Me.C. examples).
> To make things simple : "I was told" becomes in French "someone told me"



I'm sorry? I think you misunderstood my post! I'm aware of that distinction in French - in fact, I was illustrating exactly that!


----------



## Aoyama

Right. My point is/was that "dire" means both "say" and "tell". But I'm sure you know that as well.


----------



## cloudrookie

Ah, yes, I see. The reason I said "I was said" instead of "I was told" was that the former is not ambiguous in terms of direct object. In English, "I was told" can mean one of two hypothetical things (grammatically speaking): "I was told something" (something was told *to me*) and "I was uttered" (*to* someone else), as in the "I" refers to something that was said to someone else. "I was said" can only denote this latter meaning.

I know it's probably a bit confusing to a non-native speaker of English, especially since I'm using what are effectively "non-examples", i.e. things never actually said by real people. But that's exactly why it illustrates how "j'ai été dit" doesn't make sense!


----------



## Aoyama

"J'ai été dit" is impossible simply because





Maître Capello said:


> _dire_ requires an *indirect* object for the person being addressed, but the passive voice is only possible for direct objects.


You could say : "j'ai été attrapé" (attraper is transitive), "j'ai été mordu", which will be in English I was caught, I was bitten, both verbs being transitive. Tell is transitive in English, dire is not in French.


----------



## Thomas1

Just to cast away my doubts, would:





cloudrookie said:


> [...]"I was told" can mean [...] "I was uttered" (*to* someone else), as in the "I" refers to something that was said to someone else. "I was said" can only denote this latter meaning. [...]


translate into French as:
« Je » a été dit. ?

Thank you,
T.


----------



## cloudrookie

Aoyama said:


> "J'ai été dit" is impossible simply because
> You could say : "j'ai été attrapé" (attraper is transitive), "j'ai été mordu", which will be in English I was caught, I was bitten, both verbs being transitive. Tell is transitive in English, dire is not in French.



To be precise, "dire" *is* transitive in French.

_Je dis une phrase._

Obviously, what you mean is that you can't use "dire" transitively *like you can in English* ("I told him"). However, even then you're not quite right; in "I told him a story", for example, "him" is the indirect object, just as it is in French, with "a story" being the direct object, just as it in French. "I was told" actually treats "I" as the indirect object; hence our confusion!

I said something --> something was said (by me)
J'ai dit quelque chose --> quelque chose a été dit (par moi)

Here the "something/quelque chose" is the *direct object* of "dire".

All I meant was that "j'ai été dit" treats "je" as the direct object of "dire", as if it had been "said" by someone, which of course doesn't make sense.


----------



## Thomas1

cloudrookie said:


> [...]
> All I meant was that "j'ai été dit" treats "je" as the direct object of "dire", as if it had been "said" by someone, which of course doesn't make sense.


In that case, would you change the auxiliary? You treat 'je' as the direct object of 'dire', so you could replace it by any other word, no? Or am I missing something?


----------



## Aoyama

> « Je » a été dit.


 is not possible. It will become "on m'a dit" or "on m'avait dit".
"Il a été dit" (il here being impersonal ) could be used in a sentence like this :
"à la réunion, il a été dit que les salaires seraient augmentés ..."


> To be precise, "dire" *is* transitive in French.
> _Je dis une phrase._


true, my explanation was incomplete, yours is better.
And then, things are not so simple because you can very well say :
- il m'a dit (j'ai été dit par lui _not possible_)
- il m'a attrapé (j'ai été attrapé par lui OK)
- il m'a mordu (j'ai été mordu par lui OK)
one more food for thought : tell is transitive in English, say is not.



> In for example cartoons where words are personified as characters (_Schoolhouse Rock_, etc.), 'j'ai été dit' could make perfect sense.


I don't think so.


----------



## iskndarbey

Say is transitive - it always needs a direct object. You cant say just "I said".

The difference is that 'tell' is often used with an indirect object, whereas 'say' only takes an indirect object in rare cases. The difference between direct objects and indirect objects is more clearly marked/more grammatically important in French than in English, which is the source of the confusion that initiated this thread.

Why don't you like my example about the cartoon? It's a perfectly sensible thing for a word to say, for example when talking about the first time he was said.


----------



## Aoyama

I can't imagine how "he was said" could work (in English), even if you would _personify _a thing or a character. "It was said" would work.
But in French, once again "it was said" would be "il a été dit".


> Say is transitive - it always needs a direct object. You can't say just "I said".


say is transitive, right, _when the object is a thing, not a person_.
You say a word, you say a prayer. You tell somebody a secret ...

Why couldn't you just say : "I said" (or "I say"), as "I said : get out/eat !") ?


----------



## cloudrookie

iskndarbey said:


> In for example cartoons where words are personified as characters (_Schoolhouse Rock_, etc.), 'j'ai été dit' could make perfect sense.



Yes, exactly!



Aoyama said:


> true, my explanation was incomplete, yours is better.
> And then, things are not so simple because you can very well say :
> - il m'a dit (j'ai été dit par lui _not possible_)
> - il m'a attrapé (j'ai été attrapé par lui OK)
> - il m'a mordu (j'ai été mordu par lui OK)
> one more food for thought : tell is transitive in English, say is not.



I'm afraid you've incorrectly converted that first sentence into the passive, but that's because it *doesn't have a direct object*. The "me" is *indirect* while in the next two sentences it is *direct*. You can't apply the same rules.

If, instead, you said:
"Il m'a dit quelque chose." (indirect) (direct)
You could (awkwardly) convert it into:
"Quelque chose a été dit à moi par lui."
This most likely sounds horribly clunky to a french person but it at least illustrates the direct/indirect objects.



iskndarbey said:


> Say is transitive - it always needs a direct object. You cant say just "I said".
> 
> The difference is that 'tell' is often used with an indirect object, whereas 'say' only takes an indirect object in rare cases. The difference between direct objects and indirect objects is more clearly marked/more grammatically important in French than in English, which is the source of the confusion that initiated this thread.



Yes, yes, yes! 



iskndarbey said:


> Why don't you like my example about the cartoon? It's a perfectly sensible thing for a word to say, for example when talking about the first time he was said.



I liked it! 



Aoyama said:


> I can't imagine how "he was said" could work (in English), even if you would _personify _a thing or a character. "It was said" would work.
> But in French, once again "it was said" would be "il a été dit".
> 
> say is transitive, right, _when the object is a thing, not a person_.
> You say a word, you say a prayer. You tell somebody a secret ...



The examples we're using are completely hypothetical. Saying "he was said", "I was said", or the french equivalents *are completely possible* by virtue of the subjects (or thematic objects) of the verbs being *personified*. They are now people!

I'll break it down for you.

"Il a dit une phrase." _(He said a sentence.)_
"Une phrase a été dite." _(A sentence was said.)_

Okay so far? Now, imagine that this sentence has been *personified.* It has arms, legs, eyes, even a whole face. It can walk around and, yes, even talk! What would it say now?

"Bonjour! Je suis une phrase! J'ai été dite il y a cinq minutes."

All we're doing is manipulating the direct transitivity of the verb "dire", which is entirely possible, albeit largely hypothetical.

"Dire" is *just as transitive as any other transitive verb*. However, like verbs such as "donner", it is *ditransitive*, taking *two* objects, one direct and one indirect. (Incidentally, it also has the possibility of taking an entire clause as an object; "Je dis que...")



Aoyama said:


> Why couldn't you just say : "I said" (or "I say"), as "I said : get out/eat !") ?



In that instance, the actual phrase acts as an object of the verb. It's the same as:
"I wrote a word on the paper."
"I wrote 'Hello' on the paper."


----------



## Thomas1

Aoyama said:


> « Je » a été dit.
> 
> 
> 
> is not possible. It will become "on m'a dit" or "on m'avait dit".
> "Il a été dit" (il here being impersonal ) could be used in a sentence like this :
> "à la réunion, il a été dit que les salaires seraient augmentés ..."
> 
> [...]
Click to expand...

Thanks, but I'm puzzled a bit.
Say there's a baby who's learing to talk, the baby says: I.
Mother may say: Tim said 'I' today. The passive voice of it would be: 'I' was said (today by Tim).

So is the following (at least grammaticallty) OK in French:
Tim a dit « je » aujourd'hui. -- the passive: « Je » a été dit (aujourd'hui par Tim). ?


----------



## cloudrookie

Thomas1 said:


> Thanks, but I'm puzzled a bit.
> Say there's a baby who's learing to talk, the baby says: I.
> Mother may say: Tim said 'I' today. The passive voice of it would be: 'I' was said (today by Tim).
> 
> So is the following (at least grammaticallty) OK in French:
> Tim a dit « je » aujourd'hui. -- the passive: « Je » a été dit (aujourd'hui par Tim). ?



Yes, in that case it is fine. As long as it is clearly demarcated as something within quotation marks, anything can go there!


----------



## Aoyama

I get a bit lost here.
I'll try to comment _backwards_ :
- yes, saying "je" a été dit (like "ouah ouah" a été articulé/prononcé) is possible, but that is different from "j'ai été dit"


> "Bonjour! Je suis une phrase! J'ai été dite il y a cinq minutes."


yes, possible, although as you said "largely hypothetical".
- for the three examples I gave, they _look alike_ only. But "il m'a attrapé" and  "il m'a mordu" are not passive.


----------

