# All dialects: distinctive features



## elroy

Hi all,

What are some features of your dialect, or a dialect you are familiar with, that (you think) set that dialect apart from others?  In other words, what features of that dialect aren't found in any others?  I'm thinking of everything from vocabulary to grammar to pronunciation.  Please feel free to share even if you're not 100% sure a certain feature is distinctive.  If it's not, others can chime in and tell us that it's found in another dialect.

I'll start with Palestinian Arabic:

I think the most obvious distinctive feature of Palestinian Arabic is all the Hebrew borrowings found in its vocabulary, especially among Arab Israelis.  Some examples:

بسيدر (Hebrew בסדר): all right, okay
رمزور (Hebrew רמזור): traffic light
محسوم (Hebrew מחסום): barrier [used to refer to the checkpoints along the border between Israel and the West Bank and that between Israel and the Gaza Strip]
تيؤريا (Hebrew תאוריה): _lit._ theory [used to refer to the written driving test in Israel]

Here are some other things I'm pretty sure are exclusively Palestinian:

-the use of the word سكني to mean "gray" (in addition to رمادي)
-the realization of ق as a ك sound in certain regions
-the use of the negative suffix ـش- (without ما) to negate verbs in the present tense (example: بلعبش ["I don't play"])
-the use of a construction with صار to mean "already" (examples: صرت ماكل بوظة، صرت بالمكتبة ["I've already eaten ice cream"; "I'm already in the library"])

I'll add more as I think of them.

Looking forward to your contributions!


----------



## Ghabi

How about the _bookol/bookhod_ pronunciation? Is it unique to PA?


----------



## Palestinian

I don't think that the negating Sheen is a borrowing from Hebrew cause it's found in other dialects

the Egyptians say it
the subdialect of the Jabal addruz in Syria and other 7urani districts
country side of Lebanon
in some areas "I mean Lebanese not refugee Palestinians"
in Libya
in Tunisia
and in Morroco and Algerid

so I guss ش is an abbreviation of the word شيء wich means thing and the original form of the expression was ما بحب شيء I don't like nothing (regarding to)


----------



## elroy

Ghabi said:


> How about the _bookol/bookhod_ pronunciation? Is it unique to PA?


 Yes, I think it is.  Good one. 


Palestinian said:


> i don't think that the negating Sheen is a borrowing from Hebrew cause it's found in other dialects


 I didn't say it was a borrowing from Hebrew, just that it was unique to Palestinian Arabic.  I don't think any of the dialects you mention use it in the _present tense_.


----------



## Palestinian

I would like to reveal a word used in my homevillage that pretty much not used in the rest of palestine or any other Arab country:

هالزي
Hazzaya
wich means:  like this, and this much.

It's similar to
هالقد
and
هيك


elroy said:


> I didn't say it was a borrowing from Hebrew, just that it was unique to Palestinian Arabic.  I don't think any of the dialects you mention use it in the _present tense_.



Actually, it's used in both past and present tenses and in all countries I've mentioned.


----------



## elroy

Palestinian said:


> actually it's used in both past and present tenses and in all countries I've mentioned


 Without ما?  I'm fairly certain you're wrong.


----------



## Muwahid

I think a distinctive attribute of the Jordanian dialect is the use of the 'G' sound in place of 'Q' or 'ء' for ق pronouncing words such as طريق as _tariig_, تقدر as _tigder_, and so on. Also I hear a lot of replacement of ك with _'ch' _so كيف حالك becomes _chayf 7alak _but I've also heard ف pronounced as a 'v' so I've heard some people say it like _chayvak _but maybe that's my imagination, although I definitely hear a distinct sounding ف in certain words. The rest of Jordanian I think conforms to a lot of shaami Arabic with a lot of similar words and phrases, verb conjugation too using بـ prefix, also the demonstrative pronoun for 'this' هاظ I've commonly seen.

Those are just some more-or-less distinctive features I've seen from Jordanian, keep in mind Jordanians _are _a minority in Jordan itself, half of which the population being Palestinian, with mixes of Iraqi, Kuwaiti, which saw an influx over the gulf wars, and plenty of foreigners, so these attributes I personally hear more from the rural Jordanians in northern Jordan around Irbid.. I imagine a lot of Jordanian nationals speak with a more Palestinian variant of Arabic.


----------



## Palestinian

Elroy,  are you familiar with the word خا  which means take it? It's exclusive to Palestinians.
And I think it's a Hebrew word cause I've kind of heard on an Israeli show once.


elroy said:


> Without ما?  I'm fairly certain you're wrong.


Is maa the center of the discussion? I thought we were talking about sheen.

Anyway, Egyptians sometimes say it without maa like in this context:

دلوقتي حتاكلو و يجيش حد يقوللي جعان بعد كده

يعني أنا ألقى دهباية وتطلعش أصلية وانتا تلقى ميت جنيه


Muwahid said:


> Those are just some more-or-less distinctive features I've seen from Jordanian, keep in mind Jordanians _are _a minority in Jordan itself, half of which the population being Palestinian, with mixes of Iraqi, Kuwaiti, which saw an influx over the gulf wars, and plenty of foreigners, so these attributes I personally hear more from the rural Jordanians in northern Jordan around Irbid.. I imagine a lot of Jordanian nationals speak with a more Palestinian variant of Arabic.



48 percent of Jordanian Arab population are Palestinians.

Jordanians comprise the third of the whole Arab population in Jordan.
All the features you have mentioned came with Palestinians except for some features that's originally found in the Jordanian accent (I say accent because even now you can tell a Palestinian from a Jordanian by the accent).


----------



## Muwahid

> except for some features that's originally found in the jordanian accent



Like which?


----------



## פפאיה

Hello! What a beautiful thread. 

I'm not a native speaker, but as a learner of the Palestinian dialect, I thought about some other unique features I know in it:

The word وينتا meaning "when" (not just ايمتى or متى).

Pronuciation of the word بيقدر, that can sometimes sound as بيغدر, and be written that way (in specific regions, I suppose). And generally regarding pronunciation and regions - I don't know if there is another dialect that differ in so many ways in such a small piece of land.

Expressions and phrases - of course each dialect has its own set of special phrases, but the Palestinian dialect is rich of them. I thought of some:
- بدك تاكل عنب ولا تقاتل الناطور؟
- بيض ما بتنقلي بضراط
- العب بالمقصقص تيجيك الطيار
- قريد العش

Some more things: 
- 4-letter roots, repeating the original two. For example: نط - jumped, نطنط - skipped, hopped. شم - smelled, شمشم - sniffed. كب - spilt, كبكب - spilt a bit here and there.

Negation: 
- مش negation a whole sentence - مش بديش احكي معاك - "it's not that I don't want to talk to you...".
- مش negating a sentence with the meaning of "don't you dare!" - مش تيجي تبكي بعدين - "don't you come and cry afterwards".

And that's what I can think of at the moment. I'm not definitely sure that everything is wholly Palestinian, but I'd love to hear remarks.


----------



## Palestinian

In northern of Syria there's a particle : دي‏ which means come on do...
It's not Arabic but it's Turkish and it's used like this:
‏دي نامو
come on, go to sleep.

It's equal to : يللا‎ in colloquial and هيا‎ in standard.

Only in the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan)
the word for I want is: بدي which could be pronounced : Beddi in Palestine all of Jordan, except old subdialect in the North (Irbidawi dialect) and in Damascus and its country side
and pronounced: baddi in rest of Syria, Lebanon and in Irbidawi old dialect.

Rarely you could hear the word from Egyptians, but it's not used at all now. I heard it twice: once in a song from the 50s and once from a play from the 70s, instead they use the word: عايز.


----------



## clevermizo

Muwahid said:


> I think a distinctive attribute of the Jordanian dialect is the use of the 'G' sound in place of 'Q' or 'ء' for ق pronouncing words such as طريق as _tariig_, تقدر as _tigder_, and so on.



This is not a distinctive feature of Jordanian Arabic dialects. The pronunciation of /q/ as [g] is the probably most common pronunciation of /q/ in the entire Arabic speaking world.

However, what is distinctive about Jordanian speech, at least in the speech of urban Amman, is that _men_ typically use [g] whereas _women_ typically use [2] for /q/.Or rather the [g] pronunciation is perceived by many to be "masculine" sounding whereas the [2] pronunciation as "feminine" sounding (this is not true in rural areas where nearly everyone says [g], even in primarily Christian areas like Fuheis or Madaba). I found this out after saying words like _Tarii2_ or _ti2dar_ and finding out that because I was a guy, it sounds better to say _Tariig_ and _tigdar_.


----------



## Palestinian

^you're right
may I give out a map of how the standard arabic letter Qaf

g as in grass: most widespread it's found in all of Iraq except in some words,in eastren and some parts of the south of syria, in all jordan but mingeled with other forms and in parts of palestine actually it's mingled with the other forms. In the whole arabian gulf countries and yemen, in egypt at the country side of alssa2eed  and in the south which is called Nuba. In all of Sudan and Libya and in parts of tunisia algeria and morroco.

A glottal stop: in urban parts of syria lebanon and in urban suburban egypt and in palestine and jordan mostly in the cities

k as in key: in country side in palestine and in some words in Iraq

the standard Qaf: in country side of syria and lebanon, in some parts of palestines, in alot of words in iraq, in tunisia algeria morroco, and in north coast of egypt but not in the city

all bedouins (nomads) in all countries use the g form


----------



## cherine

Palestinian said:


> I don't think that the negating sheen is a borrowing from Hebrew cause it's found in other dialects.





elroy said:


> I didn't say it was a borrowing from Hebrew, just that it was unique to Palestinian Arabic.  I don't think any of the dialects you mention use it in the _present tense_.





elroy said:


> Without ما?  I'm fairly certain you're wrong.


Hi,
We do use the negating sheen in present, but with the maa: ما بَحِبِّش، ما بَرُحْش، ما بَشُفْش


Palestinian said:


> Anyway, Egyptians sometimes say it without maa like in this context:
> دلوقتي حتاكلو و يجيش حد يقوللي جعان بعد كده
> 
> يعني أنا ألقى دهباية وتطلعش أصلية وانتا تلقى ميت جنيه


This is not common. We almost always keep ما .


פפאיה said:


> Expressions and phrases - of course each dialect has its own set of special phrases, but the Palestinian dialect is rich of them.


Egyptian Arabic too has many expressions and phrases. And I'm sure it's the same way with the other dialects, do I wouldn't take the abundance of expressions as a distinctive feature of any dialect over the others.
 What _may_ be distinctive to Egyptian is that we use so many expressions from movies and theatre plays. Some of the phrases are so old (from the 60s and 70s) that many people either forgot they originated from a movie, or don't even know that.


> Some more things:
> - 4-letter roots, repeating the original two. For example: نط - jumped, نطنط - skipped, hopped. شم - smelled, شمشم - sniffed. كب - spilt, كبكب - spilt a bit here and there.


Egyptians have it too: دَشْدِش to break into pieces, شمشم to sniff, بَصْبَص to snoop, كَرْكَر to laugh out lout ...


> Negation:
> - مش negation a whole sentence - مش بديش احكي معاك - "it's not that I don't want to talk to you...".


In Egypt, we use 2 mesh  : مش مش عايزة أكلمك  or مش مش رايحة، أنا رايحة بس حاتأخَّر = it's not that I'm not going, I'll just go late.
But we sometimes try to avoid it by using a structure like مش إني مش عايزة أكلمك or مش إني مش رايحة or a structure like مش حكاية مش عايزة أروح = "the story" is not about me not wanting to go.


Palestinian said:


> g as in grass: most widespread [...] in Egypt at the country side of aS-Sa3iid  and in the South which is called Nuba.


Allow me to correct a geographical information: Nuba is not Sa3iid.
  النوبة تقع في أقصى جنوب مصر، جنوب الصعيد، وأهلها يتحدثون لغة أخرى (اللغة النوبية) وعندما يتحدثون العربية يستخدمون لهجة أقرب الأماكن إليهم أو لهجة المكان الذي يعيشون فيه، بمعنى أن النوبيين الذين يعيشون في الإسكندرية يتحدثون العربية بلهجة المدينة لا بلهجة الصعيد ​
As for the linguistic information, I agree with you: ق is pronounced as a "g" in the South and rural areas, and as an alef in urban areas. Also many persons don't make a clear distinction between ق - ك (nor between س-ص or ت-ط for that matter  ).
There are few exceptions to the pronunciation of the qaaf: we keep the qaaf in some words like قاموس، القاهرة and a few other words that I can't remember now.


> the standard Qaf: [...] in North coast of Egypt but not in the city


Wow! Where did you learn that! I only learned it myself a very few years ago by pure chance when my mom met a group of persons from كفر الشيخ (I think) and they were pronouncing the qaaf "properly" 

Other features of Egyptian Arabic:
- We don't pronounce the ع from deep down the throat as some other dialects do.
- We don't use الإمالة as other dialects do, so we say "ba7r" and not "ba7er", for example. This makes the final consonant almost disappear or gets stressed if it's at the end of a sentence, or it gets a kasra if it's followed by another word (el ba7re 3aali en-naharda).
- The negation is formed by ما [فعل]ش and also مش [فعل مضارع]ش and recently, I've been hearing many مش [فعل ماضي]ش but mostly from girls, maybe because it's more of a children's structure, and girls find it cute 
- Speaking of colors, we use many loan words for colors, specially the non-basic colors: bistaash (from the fr. pistache) instead of the "old" word "fozdo2i", simoon (fr. saumaun) instead of baSalai, gray (grey) instead of romaaDi/ramaaDi or roSaaSi, pink/benk instead of wardi....
- Using words such as طحن، موت، آخر حاجة ... to say "very".

I'm sure there are many other distinctive features of Egyptian Arabic, but I could only remember these now.


----------



## Ghabi

I've heard that in Upper Egypt they use _-um_ instead of _-u_ as the past third-personl plural ending (we've _gum_ in "standard Egyptian", but that's an exception not the norm).


----------



## Mahaodeh

Palestinian said:


> you're right
> may I give out a map of how the standard arabic letter Qaf
> 
> g as in grass: most widespread it's found in all of Iraq except in some words



Small correction, in Mousil and surrounding countryside they never use g sound, it's always a proper qaaf. In the rest of Iraq, the most widespread use is g, but depending on words it can be k, q, or j also.


I'd say the most distinctive in PA is the way أحرف الإشارة are pronounced in the countryside (هاظ هظاك هظول...etc.)


----------



## Palestinian

cherine said:


> Allow me to correct a geographical information: Nuba is not Sa3iid.


I didn't say that ssa2eed is Nuba, I used and to indicate that they too use g.

About the proper Qaf, I met many Egyptian workers from that place and learned that about them.

You know what sets Egyptian dialect apart from the other Arabic dialects is that it's alright to put the question word at the end of the question:

إنت خدتهم ليه
اشتريت ده بكام
سمعت ده إيمتى
رحت هناك مع مين
جبت ده منين
سمعتهم بيقولو إيه
شفت أحمد فين

ليه why
بكام how much ‎‎(price‎)‎
إيمتى when
مع مين with whom
منين where from
إيه what
فين where
That doesn't mean they can't put it at the begining of the question.

I think this is a feature that came from the Turkish language but it puzzles me why isn't found in the Levant which was also under the Ottaman rule for centuries.


----------



## cherine

Palestinian said:


> I didn't say that ssa2eed is Nuba, I used and to indicate that they too use g.


 
Right! I stand corrected then. I'm sorry, I didn't read your post right, maybe because I was taken aback by the incorrect transliteration (sa2eed) and not (Sa3iid).  Please pay attention to that.


> You know what sets Egyptian dialect apart from the other Arabic dialects is that it's alright to put the question word at the end of the question


Right again! 


> I think this is a feature that came from the Turkish language but it puzzles me why isn't found in the Levant which was also under the Ottaman rule for centuries.


I don't see why we'd borrow a grammatical feature or a structure feature from Turkish. We do have many Turkish loan words, but I don't think this structure is also influenced by Turkish.


----------



## clevermizo

cherine said:


> I don't see why we'd borrow a grammatical feature or a structure feature from Turkish. We do have many Turkish loan words, but I don't think this structure is also influenced by Turkish.



I don't think that this is a Turkish influence. I've read before that saying things like رحت فين؟ instead of فين رحت؟ is a Coptic influence however I also have my doubts about that.

Other languages have developed similar structures without borrowing. Consider "Tu vas où?" instead of "Où vas-tu?" which is a native development in French. Even in English I've heard people say, "So you're going where then?" instead of "Where are you going then?" Usually this is to put emphasis on the "where" part, but occasionally it doesn't seem emphatic.


----------



## Mahaodeh

I agree with Clevermizo, I think it's just a local development without any external influence. It's also not wrong to say فين رحت in Egypt nor is to wrong in other dialects to say رحت وين in other dialects, but the normative case has changed in Egypt. I remember watching a very old Egyptian movie (Yousif Wahbi, when he was the young guy and someone else was his father ) and I distinctly recall that one of his lines was ليه عملت كدة فيّ؟ and not عملت كدة فيّ ليه؟ as well as other expressions like فين بنتي؟. I don't know whether this is an influence of MSA or this structure is relatively new.


----------



## WadiH

Mahaodeh said:


> I remember watching a very old Egyptian movie (Yousif Wahbi, when he was the young guy and someone else was his father ) and I distinctly recall that one of his lines was ليه عملت كدة فيّ؟ and not عملت كدة فيّ ليه؟ as well as other expressions like فين بنتي؟. I don't know whether this is an influence of MSA or this structure is relatively new.



That's a very interesting observation.  Was it "MSA-influenced" or has the language simply evolved since then?  I'm not in a position to say.  But I've listened to old audio clips from places like Palestine (on that German website someone posted here a while back), and I think all these dialects were much more conservative and -- at the risk of being lambasted here -- richer in the recent past.  I think Arabic dialects have tended towards simplification and normalization (some would call it streamlining) in recent decades, coinciding with the age of mass media.


----------



## Palestinian

i agree, in urban areas especially the dialect has got closer to arabic once again and alot of strange terminology has been dropped in favour to arabic based ones, sadly that's not the case in countries of the arabian west according to a documentary I watched. i think that media which at it beginings focused on pan arabism worked to rearabicize (i invented that) dialects again, but because it used a more limited arsenal of words than the old arabic. A lot of arabic words got less used also. Yet now people are begining once again heading back to their once incomrehensible dialects' vocabulary with the gradually shrinkage of arabian identity and thriving of nationalism


----------



## WadiH

You say you agree with me, but the rest of your post would indicate that you actually _don't_.


----------



## Palestinian

well when I reread your post I realized it's quite the contrary to what I thought you said, but I do agree that dialects in the recent past were richer than they are now.


----------



## Noon9

Yesterday i saw a morrocan song on rotana and i was confused by the lyrics.It was hard for me to figure out if she (the singer) was singing to a male or female!! :S

The song is called متفكرنيش by هدى سعد check it out on youtube 

Here's a small part of the lyrics:-

غلطانة إني وهبتك روحي وخدعتيني
خليتيني اكذب عيني ونسمع كلامك
وفر وقتك وانسى اليوم اللي عرفتيني


----------



## clevermizo

That's because in the past tense, I believe, in Moroccan Arabic, the form is always فـعـلـتِ which becomes فعلتي when a suffix like ـني is added. This is regardless of whether addressing a male or a female.


----------



## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

Palestinian said:


> i don't think that the negating Sheen is a borrowing from Hebrew cause it's found in other dialects



they do it in malta too

saidi arabic

J is jeem
g is qaf
3 is pronounced farther inside the throat

practically any adjective that fits the pattern -a-ii- (jamiil, la6iif, etc) put in to form X verb (ex istajmal, istal6af) means to consider something something
ex....
istajmal - to consider sth pretty   استجمل 
istal6af - to consider sth nice   استلطف
ista3la - to consider sth high, pricey  استعلى
istar5a9 - to consider sth cheap  استرخص
istagrab - to consider something probable   استقرب
istab3ad - to consider sth unlikely   استبعد

verb conjugation
ana negoul - i say
e7na ngoulo - we say

we say entum instead of ento

instead of the B- prefix, we use the 3a- prefix
ex.
ana 3angoul - im saying
ana 3aneskun - im living in
ana 3anaakel - im eating


----------



## إسكندراني

i_guess_i_am_a_genius said:


> ana 3angoul - im saying
> ana 3aneskun - im living in
> ana 3anaakel - im eating


This one is totally new to me! Prob cos I have no close relatives down south.


----------



## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

some people pronounce it without the 3, ex "angoul, anekteb, etc", but that depends on region...


----------



## arabiclearner

*The use of the prefix 'د'* in 3Iraaqi to denote the present continuous:

 He is breathing (ie at the moment/ right now) *ديتنفس*

as opposed to:

*يتنفس*  He breathes (generally, habitual),

where as the latter in FusHAa and dialects without continuity signifiers, can mean both the present perfect and continuous, with the meaning inferred by way of context. 

The prefix does distinguish Iraqi (thought I dont know if the Mawsalee dialect has it) from others in that other dialects dont use the harf د for this purpose.


----------



## Ihsiin

In Iraqi there is also the prefix "di" (as opposed to "da") which strengthens an imperative. For example:

Diwalli - Get out of here!
Diwakhar - Move out of the way!
Dimshi - Walk! or, more idiomatically, Move!


----------



## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

arabiclearner said:


> *The use of the prefix 'د'* in 3Iraaqi to denote the present continuous:



my best friend is from Al-Samawa in southern iraq and she says "jay" or "ga3ed/ga3da" instead of "da" for the present continuous...
ana jay adrus el daris
or
ana ga3ed adrus el daris


----------



## Bruss04

I've noticed in Libyan they use "-ou" at the end of words indicating a question. For instance, asking someone if they're doing good "Haalik baahi?" they could say "Haalik baahiou?"
Is this common in other dialects?

(by the way, any Libyans feel free to correct me, I'm not a native speaker)


----------



## Ihsiin

i_guess_i_am_a_genius said:


> my best friend is from Al-Samawa in southern iraq and she says "jay" or "ga3ed/ga3da" instead of "da" for the present continuous...
> ana jay adrus el daris
> or
> ana ga3ed adrus el daris



This is also possible, but less common, I feel, than "da".

Another interesting thing in the Iraqi dialect is the peculiar construction with the verb "gaal".
In the past tense, gaal normally conjugates like any other hollow verb (gilit, gilna, etc.). However, when used with a dative pronoun, the 'middle lam' disappears. Thus, for "I told him" we get:

Ani gitla
I7na ginnaala
Itta gitla
Itti gittiila
Ittu gittuula
Huwa galla
Hiya gallatla / gaalatla
Humma gallawla / gaalawla

I don't know if this is shared with any other dialects, but to me it feels particularly Iraqi.


----------



## i_guess_i_am_a_genius

they also break their objects...
etc...
I told the boy
ana gitla lil walad


----------



## djara

Some Tunisian vocabulary (some of these may be shared with Algerian):
najjam: to be able; mungaala: a watch; dabbooza: bottle; zinbaa3: grapefruit; ghunjaaya: spoon (regional); 7ajjaama: knife (regional);
7ajjaam: hairdresser; STal (bucket); suuriyya (shirt); gawri (European); karhba (automobile, car); ruumi (French, European, Christian); sfinnaarya (carrot); gannariyya (artichoke) and many many others... 

Vocabulary borrowed from Italian: kujiina (kitchen); kuurnu (shoehorn); kalSiiTa, pl. KlaaSiT (sock); shkobba (broom; a card game); SbaaTa (spades); stuukuu (stucco); jornaTa (a day's wage); jilaaT (ice cream); guniilla (night gown); rubba feeka (old stuff); etc.

Pronunciation:
no vowel after first consonant: skan (he lived); klaa (he ate); klaab (dogs); shbaabik (windows); sliim (boy's name saliim)
turning al-a into "la" lakhdar (al-akhdar); landolsi (al-andalusi); lamiin (al-amiin); 
turning al-i into "li" limaam (al-imaam); 

Also, the Maghreb has in common the use of the plural pronoun for the first person singular naqra (I read); nijri (I run); naakul (I eat); na3rif (I know); nuTlub (I request); etc.

In Tunisia, there are numerous regional pronunciations of the first person pronoun: aana , aani; anee; anaa; naa;


----------



## clevermizo

Ihsiin said:


> Another interesting thing in the Iraqi dialect is the peculiar construction with the verb "gaal".
> In the past tense, gaal normally conjugates like any other hollow verb (gilit, gilna, etc.). However, when used with a dative pronoun, the 'middle lam' disappears.


This, I'd like to say, isn't so strange . It's just that *giltla* would be awkward to say, so the *l* assimilates to the consonant that follows it.

In the Levant there is a different strategy- to introduce a syllable: ʔəltlo قلتله becomes ʔəlt*əll*o قلتــِلــّو.

In either case there is a desire to avoid multiple sukūns.


----------



## WadiH

Ihsiin said:


> This is also possible, but less common, I feel, than "da".


My exposure to Iraqi Arabic is quite limited, unforuntaely, but my impression is that this is actually a regionally thing rather than a matter of one being more common than the other.  I believe "da-" is used in central Iraq (including Baghdad) while words like "gaa3id"/"jaay" are used in the south.


i_guess_i_am_a_genius said:


> instead of the B- prefix, we use the 3a- prefix
> ex.
> ana 3angoul - im saying
> ana 3aneskun - im living in
> ana 3anaakel - im eating


That's very interesting!  Obviously, it comes from _3ammaal_.


djara said:


> ]
> Pronunciation:
> no vowel after first consonant: skan (he lived); klaa (he ate); klaab (dogs); shbaabik (windows); sliim (boy's name saliim)


These initial consonantal clusters are common in Arabia, especially in Najd (e.g. verbs like skan/skinat/skinaw, d5al/d5alat/d5alaw, 6la3/6la3at/6la3aw; nouns like rgubah ("neck"), smikah ("a fish"); adjectives in the form متفعّل and متفاعل like mta3allim, mtaraahin, etc.).

Of course, there are initial consonontal clusters in nearly every Arabic dialect (particularly, with the patterns فعال and مفعّل), but I believe North African and Central Arabian dialects use them the most by far.


----------



## SofiaB

I would like to preface this by saying that most features can be found  in more than one dialect, even dialects geographically remote.I am  learning Chadi. Present progressive is ga3d only like in some others  dialects . Many dialects use classic "al "instead of "il".Kwayis and  same7 mean good, kwayis is not common in western dialects. 1st person  singular is n+ verb and plural is n+verb +u same as western dialects.  House is bayt like eastern dialects. Although some tribes use dar.Bayt  also means room like western dialects.Some dialects pronounce ta  marbouta as a and others e like levantine.Da, di ,dol are used like  Egyptian al rajil da (egpt el ragil da). 7illa(7ille) =encampment or  village like Saudi A. Barr =desert like Saudi.7out =fish like western.  dukkan=store like eastern.Few Chadis know fusha so its influence is limited. Huu and Hii are used like Saudi instead of Huwwa and Hiyya.


----------



## Ihsiin

clevermizo said:


> This, I'd like to say, isn't so strange . It's just that *giltla* would be awkward to say, so the *l* assimilates to the consonant that follows it.
> 
> In the Levant there is a different strategy- to introduce a syllable: ʔəltlo قلتله becomes ʔəlt*əll*o قلتــِلــّو.
> 
> In either case there is a desire to avoid multiple sukūns.



Yes, but the thing is in Iraqi the standard conjugation for gaal in the 1st person singular past tense is "gilit", not "gilt". What we'd expect from there is to say gilitla, which doesn't have any real pronunciation issues, but it's still modified to "gitla". This doesn't happen with any other hollow verbs; for example, we say "jibitla", not "jitla".
In general Iraqi avoids consonant clusters at the end of words, unless there's something after the word to help it along. For example, we can say "chint a7chi", or "ard ashoof", or "shift il-gumar", because in each case we're effectively adding a vowel to the end of the verbs.
The only word I can think of offhand that ends with a consonant cluster is "kelb", and this is mainly used as an insult, the more common word used to refer to an actual dog being "chelib".



			
				Wadi Hanifa said:
			
		

> My exposure to Iraqi Arabic is quite limited, unforuntaely, but my  impression is that this is actually a regionally thing rather than a  matter of one being more common than the other.  I believe "da-" is used  in central Iraq (including Baghdad) while words like "gaa3id"/"jaay"  are used in the south.



This is certainly true that there is a regional variation, but I think we have to be wary of saying "this is used here and that is used there". Both methods are not unheard of through out southern Iraqi Arabic. Certainly I would agree that "da" is more dominant in Baghdadi, and also in Furati, though gaa3id is sometimes used to denote a singularity to the action (i.e. just doing something, and nothing else). In Basrawi I have heard both used, and also it is quite common to hear participles being used to denote the progressive tense (simply "jaay", as opposed to "dayiji").
However, all of these forms are used throughout southern Iraq, but to varying degrees depending on region.


Another feature of Iraqi Arabic is the disappearance of lams. For example, "shlawn" can be pronounced "shawn", "dawlcha" can be pronounced "dawcha", even "ilna" can be pronounced "inna".
That said, the forms with lam are also used.


----------



## Bruss04

djara said:


> Some Tunisian vocabulary (some of these may be shared with Algerian)...


Do you also have that addition of "-ou" at the end of words to indicate a question? Like the post I made:

I've noticed in Libyan they use "-ou" at the end of words indicating a question. For instance, asking someone if they're doing good "Haalik baahi?" they could say "Haalik baahiou?"


----------



## SofiaB

see this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=761880&highlight=tula


----------



## djara

Bruss04 said:


> Do you also have that addition of "-ou" at the end of words to indicate a question?



This happens in Tunisian Arabic, but is restricted to some urban sections of the younger generations or is used ironically to mimic those among the young who are excessively westernized. I think it is a borrowing from a recent (1990's) trend among French youngsters who add an "euh" sound at the end of most of their sentences. Ex: "C'est joli-euh"; "Je n'aime pas-euh"; "S'il te plaît-euh"; etc.
This sounds different from the Libyan "ou" you refer to and with which I'm not familiar although I'm quite familiar with western Libyan Arabic (Trabelsi)


----------



## Bruss04

Yeah its different from the french "euh". It's hard to explain in writing, it's got a lot to do with the accent which I can't demonstrate in text  I guess it's kinda like saying "is the film good-or?" and ending the sentence with or. If that makes any sense.


----------



## mini91

elroy said:


> -the realization of ق as a ك sound in certain regions



Not quite Palestinian only, in certain parts of Algeria, specifically the East, ق is pronounced as ك as well.


----------



## Mahaodeh

Ihsiin said:


> Yes, but the thing is in Iraqi the standard conjugation for gaal in the 1st person singular past tense is "gilit", not "gilt". What we'd expect from there is to say gilitla, which doesn't have any real pronunciation issues, but it's still modified to "gitla". This doesn't happen with any other hollow verbs; for example, we say "jibitla", not "jitla".
> In general Iraqi avoids consonant clusters at the end of words, unless there's something after the word to help it along. For example, we can say "chint a7chi", or "ard ashoof", or "shift il-gumar", because in each case we're effectively adding a vowel to the end of the verbs.


Actually, giltla sounds very southern to me (southern Iraq), it Baghdad it's either gilitla or gittla where the lam is omitted and a short or weak stress is added to the taa.


Ihsiin said:


> This is certainly true that there is a regional variation, but I think we have to be wary of saying "this is used here and that is used there". Both methods are not unheard of through out southern Iraqi Arabic. Certainly I would agree that "da" is more dominant in Baghdadi, and also in Furati, though gaa3id is sometimes used to denote a singularity to the action (i.e. just doing something, and nothing else). In Basrawi I have heard both used, and also it is quite common to hear participles being used to denote the progressive tense (simply "jaay", as opposed to "dayiji").
> However, all of these forms are used throughout southern Iraq, but to varying degrees depending on region.


In Baghdad and the north both da and gaa3id are used. Most of the time they are interchangeable but sometimes there is a subtle difference, da can be used when the subject is emphasized while gaa3id can be used when the verb is emphasized.


Ihsiin said:


> Another feature of Iraqi Arabic is the disappearance of lams. For example, "shlawn" can be pronounced "shawn", "dawlcha" can be pronounced "dawcha", even "ilna" can be pronounced "inna".
> That said, the forms with lam are also used.


I've never heard dawlka pronounced without a laam! Where did you hear that?


----------



## Ihsiin

Mahaodeh said:


> Actually, giltla sounds very southern to me (southern Iraq), it Baghdad it's either gilitla or gittla where the lam is omitted and a short or weak stress is added to the taa.



If "giltla" is used in the south, I assume it must _very_ southern, for I've never heard it. You're absolutely right on the "gitla" front, there is a stress on the taa, and this would be consistent with other conjugations (gittiila, gittuula, et cetera).
I've never heard gilitla used by any of my Baghdadi contemporaries. The word sounds decidedly odd to me.


Mahaodeh said:


> In Baghdad and the north both da and gaa3id are used. Most of the time they are interchangeable but sometimes there is a subtle difference, da can be used when the subject is emphasized while gaa3id can be used when the verb is emphasized.



Hmm.. I've never considered emphasis on verb or subject. However, it seems to me that the subject is more present in the "gaa3id" form than in the "da" form.


Mahaodeh said:


> I've never heard dawlka pronounced without a laam! Where did you hear that?



Amongst many of my contemporaries. I tend to omit the lam myself.
Come to think of it, the pronunciation of "dawcha" may be more particular to Furati. It certainly more typically Baghdadi to leave the lam in there (and to keep the kaf as /k/, for that matter).


----------



## Mahaodeh

Ihsiin said:


> Hmm.. I've never considered emphasis on verb or subject. However, it seems to me that the subject is more present in the "gaa3id" form than in the "da" form.



Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say object as in:

شفته ديكتب رسالة
شفته قاعد يكتب

In the first, the letter is more important than the verb - the emphasis is about writing a latter, not anything else; whereas in the second it's basically about him sitting down to write, regardless of what he is writing.

Now keep in mid that this is not something I looked up in a book, it's how I "feel" the meaning when someone speaks (as a native of course).


----------



## Ihsiin

Yes, I think you're exactly right there. I think this is what I was trying to get at when I was talking about "a singularity to the action", only you've articulated it much better than I have.


----------



## arabiclearner

Mahaodeh said:


> Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say object as in:
> 
> شفته ديكتب رسالة
> شفته قاعد يكتب
> 
> In the first, the letter is more important than the verb - the emphasis is about writing a latter, not anything else; whereas in the second it's basically about him sitting down to write, regardless of what he is writing.
> 
> Now keep in mid that this is not something I looked up in a book, it's how I "feel" the meaning when someone speaks (as a native of course).



In the example you gave:
شفته ديكتب رسالة 
is there an actualisation of the dipthong 'ay' between د and ي creating the utterance: 'dayktub' or is the 'independence' of the vowels realised instead, hence the realisation of the utterance as da-yktub (ie without a dipthong)?  Or am I way off here and is it instead pronounced in another fashion?


----------



## suma

arabiclearner said:


> He is breathing (ie at the moment/ right now) *ديتنفس*
> 
> as opposed to:
> 
> *يتنفس* He breathes (generally, habitual),



I wonder if that's like a short way of saying _*da 7een yatanaffas*_, and they just shortened it to prefix *d*


----------



## Mahaodeh

arabiclearner said:


> In the example you gave:
> شفته ديكتب رسالة
> is there an actualisation of the dipthong 'ay' between د and ي creating the utterance: 'dayktub' or is the 'independence' of the vowels realised instead, hence the realisation of the utterance as da-yktub (ie without a dipthong)?  Or am I way off here and is it instead pronounced in another fashion?



No you are not way off, there is indeed a realization of the diphthong unless for some reason one is saying the words independently and not as a sentence.

Just one note, however, in IA its yiktib not yiktub (the taa' has a kasra rather than a Damma) so it's pronounce dayktib.


----------



## arabiclearner

Likewise would: دتاكل be realised as _dat-aakal_?  As it seems somewhat difficult to pronounce as _da-taakal_ as the د and the ت are obviously very close in terms of مخارج الحروف.


----------



## Ihsiin

I'm sorry Mahaodeh, but I don't agree with you.
I think with the verb "katab" the present progressive is realised as "dayiktib" (da-yik-tib), etc. This is the same for all verbs that have a consonant cluster at the beginning of the imperfect stem (or, if you prefer, where the imperfect stem begins with a 7aruf sakin),thus:
(perfect -> imperfect stem -> present progressive)
katab -> ktib -> dayiktib
misha -> mshi -> dayimshi
and so on. Also,
akal -> aakul -> dayaakul (and thus also dataakul (da-taa-kul)).

For verbs that begin their imperfect stems with a single consonant (or a 7aruf muta7arrik), however, the diphthong is realised. So,
gaal -> guul -> dayguul (day-guul)
sallam -> sallim -> daysallim (day-sal-lim)
And likewise in other conjugations: daaguul, datsallim, and so on.


----------



## baby_milkshake

Muwahid said:


> I think a distinctive attribute of the Jordanian dialect is the use of the 'G' sound in place of 'Q' or 'ء' for ق pronouncing words such as طريق as _tariig_, تقدر as _tigder_, and so on. Also I hear a lot of replacement of ك with _'ch' _so كيف حالك becomes _chayf 7alak _but I've also heard ف pronounced as a 'v' so I've heard some people say it like _chayvak _but maybe that's my imagination, although I definitely hear a distinct sounding ف in certain words. The rest of Jordanian I think conforms to a lot of shaami Arabic with a lot of similar words and phrases, verb conjugation too using بـ prefix, also the demonstrative pronoun for 'this' هاظ I've commonly seen.
> 
> Those are just some more-or-less distinctive features I've seen from Jordanian, keep in mind Jordanians _are _a minority in Jordan itself, half of which the population being Palestinian, with mixes of Iraqi, Kuwaiti, which saw an influx over the gulf wars, and plenty of foreigners, so these attributes I personally hear more from the rural Jordanians in northern Jordan around Irbid.. I imagine a lot of Jordanian nationals speak with a more Palestinian variant of Arabic.



=> th "ch" sound you refer to I'm preety sure comes from the Iraqi and Kuwaiti influence and the "q" sound replaced with "g" - is definitely Kuwaiti too because that's a typical feature of the Khaleej (concentrating on Kuwait, KSA etc - but not the emirates because they replace "q" to "j")


----------



## Mahaodeh

baby_milkshake said:


> => th "ch" sound you refer to I'm preety sure comes from the Iraqi and Kuwaiti influence and the "q" sound replaced with "g" - is definitely Kuwaiti too because that's a typical feature of the Khaleej (concentrating on Kuwait, KSA etc - but not the emirates because they replace "q" to "j")



Not really, the kaf ---> ch sound comes from very old phonetic shifts, called الكشكشة. This happened to many dialects.

Also, the qaaf ---> g sound exists in so many dialects (including the Emarati and other khaliji dialects) and it does not make sense for it to be a Kuwaiti influence because not enough Kuwaitis live in Jordan and not for long enough periods of time - it can't be an effect of Iraqi because IA in Jordan has not been there long enough!

If someone said "gaal", his dialect can be: Iraqi, Ahwazi, Arabistaani, Khaliji, Jordanian, Badawi Levantine, Najdi, Hijaazi, Yamani, Saidi Egyptian, Sudaanes, Chadi, Libyan and probably and wide range of other sub-dialects or very local dialects that I don't know of. It can also be used in Areas I didn't know of (I mean, it could possibly exist in Morocco, I just don't know that).

Of course, something like "cheif" or "chaan" can also be used in a lot of dialects not all of which use g for qaaf!


----------



## MarcB

Mahaodeh said:


> Also, the qaaf ---> g sound exists in so many dialects [...]


Maha more on gaaf here:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=608635


----------



## rayloom

A distinctive feature in Hijazi Arabic, which I don't think I've noticed in other Arabic dialects, is the constant pronunciation of the hamzat waSl of verbs as a hamza with a fatHa, whether imperative or perfect.

'ista3mala --> 'asta3mal
'ista3mil --> 'asta3mil
'uktub --> 'aktub
'ijlis --> 'ajlis
'inkasara --> 'ankasar
'inkatim --> 'ankatim
takassara--> 'atkassar (while in other Arabic dialects it becomes 'itkassar or something similar)


Can't think of other features of the dialect at the moment.

Also I noticed something in a Yemeni dialect (not sure which Yemeni dialect though), the use of the old form افتعل for the reflexive/passive, instead of اتفعل or انفعل in the other Arabic dialects.
They would say امتسح & اكتسر and so on.


----------



## clevermizo

^افتعل is still used for some passives in the Levant such as نسي/انتسى (to forget, to be forgotten).


----------



## alpharabbit

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Are there any features of Levantine Arabic that are not found in any other dialect of Arabic and thus must have been inherited from a proto-Levantine dialect? The only one I can think of is the particle 3am/3ammal used to indicate progressive present tense, but this is found in Egyptian Middle Arabic manuscripts, and so must have been common throughout the Mediterranean, but only became grammaticalized as an areal feature relatively late in the Levantine area. Conditioned imalah of ta' marabuta is also a distinctive Levantine feature but is also a feature of the Qur'anic reading of al-Kisa'i, which is based on reading traditions from 8th century Kufa in southern Iraq, so cannot be considered a Levantine isogloss.

I can't think of a single word or feature that can mark a dialect as Levantine, except perhaps the use of the word _zalame_, haha.


----------



## momai

Hi,
zalame is not only used in the Levant but also in Iraq 
The only word that I can think of and that is not used anywhere else outside the levant is the verb to want (bad-ak/ik/kon).In Syria as well as in Lebanon plural forms for ethnonyms are aslo usually built by adding the suffix iye ,while it is true it is not used for all ethnonyms ,it is still a distinctive feature that not used anywhere else that I am aware of.(Is it used by the way in Jordan and Palestine?)


----------



## elroy

That's funny; "biddi/baddi" was also the only one that occurred to me when I read the first post. 

There's gotta be more, though.  What about "nifsi" meaning "I really want"?

Or "ya reetni"?  Do other dialects add personal suffixes to "ya reet"?

Or reducing عندنا to "3inna"?  Do other dialects do this? 





momai said:


> In Syria as well as in Lebanon plural forms for ethnonyms are aslo usually built by adding the suffix iye ,while it is true it is not used for all ethnonyms ,it is still a distinctive feature that not used anywhere else that I am aware of.(Is it used by the way in Jordan and Palestine?)


 It is in Palestine.


----------



## analeeh

_nifsi_ is also used in Egyptian (in fact I think in Syrian we say _nafsi_ in this meaning). And _biddi_ is used in the Hejaz!

I don't think we can disregard the imaalah of _taa marbuuTa_ as a Levantine isogloss though - just because it occurs in an eighth century dialect elsewhere doesn't mean it didn't develop independently in the Levant later. That said, I have a feeling that some Iraqi dialects also have _imaalah_ (albeit of a different kind) of taa marbuuTa.

What about _hoon(a/e) _'here'? There's also _shu_, although there may be Levantine dialects in which it's not used at all.

The problem is that I doubt there ever was a proto-Levantine!


----------



## apricots

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned _ishi_ as being distinctive of Palestinian Arabic yet!

Also, do other dialects use the Turkish -_ji_ for things like _dukkanji -_ shopkeeper?


----------



## analeeh

Yes, that suffix is used all over the Arab world in places that were under Turkish occupation (as well as in Persian and I think some Indian languages).


----------



## elroy

apricots said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned _ishi_ as being distinctive of Palestinian Arabic yet!


 We're not sure if alpharabbit is looking for features found in _all_ Levantine dialects (but not any others), or if he/she is also interested in features found in only one or more - but not all - of the Levantine sub-dialects.


----------



## Hemza

analeeh said:


> Yes, that suffix is used all over the Arab world in places that were under Turkish occupation (as well as in Persian and I think some Indian languages).



Not only. Morocco hasn't been under Ottoman rule but we still use the 'ji' suffix. But it's related to Ottomans for sure.

By the way, 'shu' is used in Emirates if I'm not wrong and 'hoon(i)' is used in Tunisia.

Some features of Moroccan (which aren't necessarily used accross the whole country and can be found in the rest of the Maghreb):

-The use of a ك or a ت prefix for continuous present (sometimes in addition to جالس/قاعد gales/ga3ed). I don't think it exists in Eastern Morocco though.
-In the West of Morocco (may be other areas) they tend to transform the 'dhamma' to a kasra or a 'e', like they say 'gilt/gelt' and 'kint/kent' instead of 'gult/kunt'.
-In the South, people tend to pronounce the 'ف' as a 'v' like in Mauritania
-The ج is, in many words pronounced as a 'g' (especially in my area) like in Egypt, Yemen and Oman. It's typical from Morocco but Tunisians tend to pronounce it 'ز' when we would pronounce 'g'. (Standard Arabic: 'jazzar" M: 'gazzar' T: 'zazzar')
-Western Moroccans tend to pronounce the 'ت' as a 'تش' and you often hear them saying 'entsha/entshi' instead of 'enta/enti' 
-We say 'ghadda' while the rest of the Maghreb say 'ghodwa' (tomorrow).
-We don't say 'أكلت', we say 'كليت'. Does it exist somewhere else? I think about Najdi may be? Also, we don't call food 'أكل' but 'ماكلة' which is treated as a feminine.
-We call water 'ماء' and not 'ماي' or 'موية' as my Egyptians friends do 
-In my area in Morocco (Fès) many people tend to use تصغير which sometimes gives very odd words
-The use of 'tamma(k)/thamma(k)' to say 'here' or 'there' (with the -k) besides 'hna/hnak'.
-The use of the dual to mean the plural for some words . Example, we say 'baab/bibaan', 'kas/kisaan'. But I think it's also the case in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya (I don't know about Mauritania)
-The future is formed by putting the prefix 'غ' or 'غادي' before the verb.
-In rural speeches, people tend to add a 'يا' in some words and pronouns like 'انايا' 'انتيا' 'هنايا' instead of انا انت and هنا

There might be others (which are often shared with our Maghribi neighbours) but I have no more idea for the moment.


----------



## tounsi51

Imala in Tunisian Arabic, in the beginning of names like Amir will be pronounced _É_mir

Or imala at the end of the verb جاء will be pronounced jéh

Barsha: only used in Tunisia 

you= enti even for masculine, in urban areas mostly


----------



## analeeh

Hemza said:
			
		

> -The use of the dual to mean the plural for some words . Example, we say 'baab/bibaan', 'kas/kisaan'. But I think it's also the case in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya (I don't know about Mauritania)



This isn't the dual, it's an extension of the msa plural pattern fiilaan, as in jiiraan.


----------



## tounsi51

analeeh said:


> This isn't the dual, it's an extension of the msa plural pattern fiilaan, as in jiiraan.



yes like wall, plural in NA of حيط is حيوط following the plural of house


----------



## alpharabbit

momai said:


> Hi,
> zalame is not only used in the Levant but also in Iraq
> The only word that I can think of and that is not used anywhere else outside the levant is the verb to want (bad-ak/ik/kon).In Syria as well as in Lebanon plural forms for ethnonyms are aslo usually built by adding the suffix iye ,while it is true it is not used for all ethnonyms ,it is still a distinctive feature that not used anywhere else that I am aware of.(Is it used by the way in Jordan and Palestine?)



Yeah, in Jordan we say al-Karakiyye to refer to "the people of al-Karak". When you think about it, it doesn't really make sense because al-Karakiyye can also mean "the girl from al-Karak". Another common one in Jordan is al-Shamaliyye, referring to the people of northern Jordan (Irbid, al-Ramtha, etc.). I don't know if this is a strictly Levantine feature though, or if its found in other dialects.



apricots said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned _ishi_ as being distinctive of Palestinian Arabic yet!
> 
> Also, do other dialects use the Turkish -_ji_ for things like _dukkanji -_ shopkeeper?



ishi is also used in Jordanian Arabic.



analeeh said:


> _nifsi_ is also used in Egyptian (in fact I think in Syrian we say _nafsi_ in this meaning). And _biddi_ is used in the Hejaz!
> 
> I don't think we can disregard the imaalah of _taa marbuuTa_ as a Levantine isogloss though - just because it occurs in an eighth century dialect elsewhere doesn't mean it didn't develop independently in the Levant later. That said, I have a feeling that some Iraqi dialects also have _imaalah_ (albeit of a different kind) of taa marbuuTa.
> 
> What about _hoon(a/e) _'here'? There's also _shu_, although there may be Levantine dialects in which it's not used at all.
> 
> The problem is that I doubt there ever was a proto-Levantine!



The problem with the ta' marbuta in the Levant is that the rules for imalah differ between say Horani (northern Transjordan and southern Syria) and Palestinian dialects for instance. In Horan it is only imalized before coronal non-emphatic consonants so for example mimlaka (k is a velar, so no imalization) instead of mamlake. Nevertheless the rules are similar between all of the Levantine dialects, that is to say the imalah is conditioned by a non-back, non-emphatic phonetic environment, and this is similar to the rules in the reading of al-Kisa'i. Christian Baghdadi Arabic also has imala of ta marbuta (-a) to (-i) in non-emphatic non-guttural environments, highly similar to Levantine Arabic (sani, 7elwi, samaki, but shajagha, mazba7a, ba66ekha).

This tendency to imalize ta' marbuta in front environments must have been an areal innovation (if not an inherited feature) in both the old Iraqi vernaculars and Levantine vernaculars; I highly doubt it developed separately in both dialects, since it doesn't really happen anywhere else in the Arab world, and both dialect areas are contiguous.

I also doubt there was a proto-Levantine, because the distinctive features of Levantine Arabic are all pretty recent developments, and I think Levantine Arabic came about as a result of a process of linguistic convergence. Levantine Arabic today is still highly diverse phonologically and morphologically and dialects vary from village to village.


----------



## arn00b

i_guess_i_am_a_genius said:


> practically any adjective that fits the pattern -a-ii- (jamiil, la6iif, etc) put in to form X verb (ex istajmal, istal6af) means to consider something something
> ex....
> istajmal - to consider sth pretty   استجمل
> istal6af - to consider sth nice   استلطف
> ista3la - to consider sth high, pricey  استعلى
> istar5a9 - to consider sth cheap  استرخص
> istagrab - to consider something probable   استقرب
> istab3ad - to consider sth unlikely   استبعد



That's strange, because in Kuwait and Bahrain these are not "consider" verbs at all, but reflexive change-of-state verbs.  So ista3rab = he became an Arab.   istajmal = he became good-looking.   But I believe that's the more common usage:

faad - was useful, helped, was of use
istafaad - he benefited from

sallam - he submitted, handed over
istaslam - he surrendered (himself)

These constructs are used a lot:

istabrad (il-jaw) - the weather turned cold
istachlab - he became vicious/angry/doglike
istaksal - he became lazy, he lazed out, he failed or chose not to do something out of laziness

But I can't think of many examples where the meaning is "to consider"

There is "istahtar" but I can't think of much else.

Edit: On second thought, some do come to mind"  "Istahza3", where hazza2 is humiliate, istahza2 is to underestimate, so there is a sense of consideration. 

The difference is that the in Kuwait/Bahrain, people would say istal6af to mean "become nice" (istal6af il-jaw), rather than "He considers something nice."


----------



## elroy

alpharabbit said:


> ishi is also used in Jordanian Arabic.


 Is it native to Jordanian Arabic, or was it brought in by Palestinians? 





> a non-back, non-emphatic phonetic environment
> 
> front environments


 What do you mean by "back" and "front" environments?  Are you referring to consonants?  As far as I know consonants are not classified as "back" and "front."


----------



## alpharabbit

elroy said:


> Is it native to Jordanian Arabic, or was it brought in by Palestinians?  What do you mean by "back" and "front" environments?  Are you referring to consonants?  As far as I know consonants are not classified as "back" and "front."



Yes it's native to Jordanian. The other form, "shi", is rarely used and only found in compound forms like كلشي.

Also by back consonants for urban Levantine Arabic this is equivalent to guttural consonants, but in the Horani dialect this includes the guttural and the velar consonants (k, g<q). So I use the term "back" to indicate non imalizing consonants due to their place in the back of the mouth that are not necessarily in the class of gutturals.


----------



## momai

I prepared a small list of verbs that are used in my dialect and not listed in classical dictionaries .I hope that you can help me grouping them into these following categories: 1-Syrian only,2-levantine,or 3- used elsewhere  by going over each one of them and putting (used) or  (not used)
فنّح=أسرع
تزهرم = أكل
دربس الباب = سكر الباب
حاص و لاص= تحرك كثيرا
التكش = اهتم
هشل = هاجر
هجّ=هاجر
إنبشم= شبع
مجق=باس,قبّل
شقل=حمل
طحبش = كســّر
بحلق = نظر إلى شيء بتدقيق
دقدس = بحث عن شيء ما
الحلاق زوَعلو شعرو=الحلاق قص له شعره بشكل سيء
زت = رمى
شلح =رمى
طص = شاف
شلفط =حرحر بسبب أكلة حارة
حدحد=حرحر بسبب أكلة حارة
شرشر=نقّط (سائل)
اتلهوج=استعجل مع عدم التركيز
اتلعبج=آلمته معدته
لقلق=دار بيوت الناس للحصول على اخبارهم عادة
شبق =ضرب
زمق = نفد,نجا
جقجق = خبص تخبيص
التغملش/غملش = الأكل بكميات كبيرة وبشراهة
التنقرش/نقرش = انو الواحد ياكل من كل صحن لقمة
انبلص = تعرض للغش
شعت= شق
سطّم=انسد
تعشبق عسجرة = تسلق الشجرة
زمق =  مرّ بسرعة بحيث لا يدع أحد يراه
تلقمس =أصدر أصوات أثناء الأكل.....
يدّرع = يتجشأ
طوبز = يجلس ومؤخرته مرفوعة
فنجر عيونو =نظر باستغراب و اندهاش
قرعب الشيء = يبس أو جف الشيء


----------



## elroy

Below are the ones I've heard or used in Palestinian Arabic.  Some of them have different meanings, though.

حاص و لاص= تحرك كثيرا (I've only ever heard حاص by itself with this meaning.  لاص has a different meaning.) 
التكش = اهتم (This has a connotation of "active اهتمام," i.e. doing something that shows you're interested.) 
هجّ=هاجر (We also just use this to mean "to leave."  Usually it has the connotation of a dramatic departure.) 
مجق=باس,قبّل (To me, this is not just a neutral باس.  It's a very sloppy or wet type of kissing.) 
طحبش = كســّر (We have this verb, but it doesn't mean كســّر.  It means بعبش or "to rummage" in English.  We have طبّش for كسّر.)
بحلق = نظر إلى شيء بتدقيق (This has a negative connotation, like "to stare" in English rather than "to examine carefully.") 
زت = رمى
شلح =رمى (We have this verb but it doesn't mean رمى.  It means "to take off (clothes)."
طص = شاف (We have this verb but it doesn't mean شاف.  It means something like فنس.) 
شرشر=نقّط (سائل)
التنقرش/نقرش = انو الواحد ياكل من كل صحن لقمة (We use this to mean "to snack (on things like chips, pretzels, etc.).")
تلقمس =أصدر أصوات أثناء الأكل.....

Below are a few I'm less certain about: 

شقل=حمل (I believe I may have heard this one, but I'm not sure.) 
تعشبق عسجرة = تسلق الشجرة (This one sound _very_ familiar; I feel like it or a metathesized form of it is used in Galilean Arabic.)
طوبز = يجلس ومؤخرته مرفوعة (I think I've heard this one.) 
فنجر عيونو =نظر باستغراب و اندهاش (This sounds familiar, but I'm not sure if it's actually used in Palestinian Arabic.)


----------



## analeeh

_shala7_ also means 'take off clothes' in Syrian. Its use as 'throw' or 'stick X somewhere' (_shla7o 3a TTaawle_) to me seems very slangy or very colloquial (not something you would say in polite company).

_fanjar 3een_ is also definitely used in Lebanese.

The form I'm familiar with for _t3ashba2 _is _t3arbash_. This might be Damascene or something else, I don't know.

What about:

انشلق - انتبه
دوزن - فكر كثيرًا بأمر ما
نتع - حمل او شد شيئا ثقيلًا
طرأ - ضرب
 سلخ - ضرب
طرأ او ضرب بوكس - ضرب ضربة باليد
بلس على - فسد على
فسس على - فسد على
فسفوس - من يفسس او يفسفس على شخص
عواينجي - مخبر للأمن
سلبطجي - لا أعرف كيف عرفها بالضبط ولكن هو من يأخذ بلا استحياء
فلّس, أفلس - أصبح من دون مال
اندبوري - فقير
خاوز مع, خورف على - أي نصب


----------



## momai

Thank you elroy



elroy said:


> حاص و لاص= تحرك كثيرا (I've only ever heard حاص by itself with this meaning.  لاص has a different meaning.)
> طص = شاف (We have this verb but it doesn't mean شاف.  It means something like فنس.)


What do لاص &فنس mean then in Palestinian?


> التكش = اهتم (This has a connotation of "active اهتمام," i.e. doing something that shows you're interested.)
> هجّ=هاجر (We also just use this to mean "to leave."  Usually it has the connotation of a dramatic departure.)
> مجق=باس,قبّل (To me, this is not just a neutral باس.  It's a very sloppy or wet type of kissing.)
> بحلق = نظر إلى شيء بتدقيق (This has a negative connotation, like "to stare" in English rather than "to examine carefully.")


They are used this way in Syria but I was just too lazy to explain them clearly and accurately 


> شلح =رمى (We have this verb but it doesn't mean رمى.  It means "to take off (clothes)."
> التنقرش/نقرش = انو الواحد ياكل من كل صحن لقمة (We use this to mean "to snack (on things like chips, pretzels, etc.).")


Those have also the meaning that you are indicating here.


----------



## alpharabbit

momai said:


> شقل=حمل
> [...]
> شلح =رمى


شقل is undoubtedly an Aramaic loan. In Aramaic it means to take or remove.

شلح with the meaning رمى is also an Aramaic loan. In Aramaic, شليح basically means رسول, and the roots have the same meaning, "to be sent forth".


----------



## momai

Thank you analeeh


analeeh said:


> _shala7_ also means 'take off clothes' in Syrian. Its use as 'throw' or 'stick X somewhere' (_shla7o 3a TTaawle_) to me seems very slangy or very colloquial (not something you would say in polite company). Excatly!
> 
> _fanjar 3een_ is also definitely used in Lebanese.
> 
> The form I'm familiar with for _t3ashba2 _is _t3arbash_. This might be Damascene or something else, I don't know. Both are used where I live .





> What about:
> 
> انشلق - انتبه
> دوزن - فكر كثيرًا بأمر ما  I use ma5ma5 instead
> نتع - حمل او شد شيئا ثقيلًا
> طرأ - ضرب
> سلخ - ضرب
> طرأ او ضرب بوكس - ضرب ضربة باليد
> بلس على - فسد على not used where I live
> فسس على - فسد على I use fasfas
> فسفوس - من يفسس او يفسفس على شخص
> عواينجي - مخبر للأمنI am only familiar with 3awaine
> سلبطجي - لا أعرف كيف عرفها بالضبط ولكن هو من يأخذ بلا استحياء I only use the verb salbaT ,salbaTje looks somehow awkward
> فلّس, أفلس - أصبح من دون مال
> اندبوري - فقير
> خاوز مع,- أي نصب


----------



## alpharabbit

elroy said:


> Below are the ones I've heard or used in Palestinian Arabic.  Some of them have different meanings, though.
> 
> تعشبق عسجرة = تسلق الشجرة (This one sound _very_ familiar; I feel like it or a metathesized form of it is used in Galilean Arabic.)



I know in Jordan we have اتشعبط with the same meaning.


----------



## elroy

analeeh said:


> _shala7_ also means 'take off clothes' in Syrian. Its use as 'throw' or 'stick X somewhere' (_shla7o 3a TTaawle_) to me seems very slangy or very colloquial (not something you would say in polite company).


 Haha, in Palestinian Arabic that would sound like something from a raunchy porno.   We use أزئل (2uz2ol) with that meaning.  (Oh, and in Palestinian Arabic it's pronounced "shile7.") 





			
				analeeh said:
			
		

> The form I'm familiar with for _t3ashba2 _is _t3arbash_. This might be Damascene or something else, I don't know.





alpharabbit said:


> I know in Jordan we have اتشعبط with the same meaning.


 We have تعربش and شعبط, and also شبّط.  They all sound pretty similar, which is why momai's تعشبق sounded so familiar but didn't quite resonate with me.

Here are the ones from analeeh's list that I've heard or used:

دوزن - فكر كثيرًا بأمر ما (We use this to mean "to tune (a piano)."  I guess it could be extended to mean "to consider something carefully (with the same thoroughness and precision you would need to tune a piano)" but it's not a common usage I'm familiar with.)
نتع - حمل او شد شيئا ثقيلًا (We use it to mean حمل but not شد.  It also has a somewhat derogatory connotation, as in "to haul something, as a donkey would"  (very offensive in Arab culture!).  But it can be used playfully with friends/family, like most derogatory words/expressions.)
طرأ - ضرب (This usually means "to slam (a door)," but you can also say طرأو كف, for example.  I don't think it's commonly used on its own to mean "to hit.")
سلخ - ضرب (This is very common, but normally it's figurative, as in "to cream someone (at a game, for example)."  Literally it means "to skin (an animal)."  Parents sometimes threaten their children with a بسلخك سلخ.)
طرأ او ضرب بوكس - ضرب ضربة باليد (This specifically means "to punch.")
فسفوس - من يفسس او يفسفس على شخص (To me, this sounds like "something that is very small."  (I would probably say فسفوسة myself.)  We don't use it to mean "tattletale.")
فلّس, أفلس - أصبح من دون مال (أفلس is literally "to go bankrupt" whereas فلّس can be hyperbolic ("to go broke").)
خاوز مع, خورف على - أي نصب (We have خاوز مع, but it basically means the opposite!  It means "to favor" or "to give preferential treatment to"!  Is this another example of a word with radically different meanings in two Levantine dialects?  (I love those.)  I've never heard خورف على.) 





momai said:


> What do لاص &فنس mean then in Palestinian?


 I was afraid you'd ask. 

الواحد لما يكون لايص بكون منهمك أو منغمس بإشي لدرجة إنو مش فاضي يرتاح أو حتى يهتم بحالو. يعني تخيل مرة مثلاً عندها عزومة ولازم تطبخ لعشرين واحد، وبدها تعمل تلت أكلات وسلطات وتحلاي وبعرفش شو، فبتقعد يومين تلاتة تحضر وبتفضاش تمشط شعرها ومطبخها بكون قايم قاعد. هاي منقدر نقول عنها "لايصة." لما بسمع هاي الكلمة بتخيل واحد شعرو مكنفش وقواعيه مبهدلة ودارة مبربشة وهيك، فيعني الكلمة بتختلف عن "مشغول" من هاي الناحية. بالنسبة لـ"حايص" طبعًا الواحد لما يكون لايص كمان عادة بحوص كتير، بس حايص منستعملها كمان لحالها بسياقات تانية، يعني مثلاً واحد زهئان ومش عارف شو بدو يعمل يمكن يحوص، أو واحد مثلاً مرته بدها تخلًف وهو بالمستشفي يمكن يحوص.

فنس يعني لما واحد مثلاً بكون متحمس أو معجوق أو مبسوط لسبب معين وبتيجي إنت بتقوللو إشي هيك بتهبط معنوياته. يعني مثلاً واحد مبسوط إنو جايبلك هدية من السفر وبقدملك اياها بحماس بتيجي إنت بتقوللو "يي هاي عندي زيها، شو بدي أعمل فيها هلأ" هيك بتكون فنستو. أو مثلاً ولد بدو يورجي الضيوف أواعيه الجداد لإنه معجوق فيهم بتيجي إمو بتقوللو "عيب، روح ضبهم أوام" يمكن كمان ينفنس. هلأ "طص" مش بالزبط زي "فنس". "طص" أقوا. يعني إذا واحد بهدل ابنه بشكل رهيب يمكن نقول "طصو" أو إذا تنين عم بتقتلوا وواحد أهان التاني بكلامات تقيلة وخلاه هيك مش عارف شو يحكي بردو بنفع نقول إنو "طصو." بعرفش، يمكن "فنس" مش مرادف مناسب بس معرفتش كيف أشرحها بشكل مقتضب. هاي الكلامت صعب الواحد يشرحها. بس يعني "طص" بالمرة مإلهاش علاقة بـ"شاف". عن جد بسوريا معناها "شاف"؟ يعني بتقولوا "مبارح طصيت رفقاتي" يعني "مبارح شفتهم"؟

I hope that helps.   I feel like in my explanations I may have used some words that are specific to Palestinian.  Feel free to point out any that are not familiar (in the spirit of this thread).  I may compile a list like yours.


----------



## analeeh

Yeah, _doozan_ also means 'tune' in Syrian (and I think in MSA, actually) - this is a pretty straightforward metaphorical shift, I guess, which became established lexically.

I think _Darabt-éllo boks_ also means 'punched' in Syrian, but I wasn't sure how to specifically express 'punch' in MSA! My friend was particularly fond of telling me about his escapades as a young man in Latakia where he supposedly _Darab@t_ _boks boksaat_ to quite a lot of people (personally I am skeptical).


----------



## elroy

analeeh said:


> _Darabt-éllo boks_


 It uses a preposition in Syrian?  In Palestinian it's _Darabto boks_. 


> I wasn't sure how to specifically express 'punch' in MSA!


 I think it's لكم.


----------



## analeeh

Ahh, yeah - like _mulaakamah_. That would make sense.

I think it's _Darabto boks_ - it's definitely _salakhto sal@kh_ which I think is basically the same construction, albeit one which would readily be classified as a _maf3uul muTlaq _classically.


----------



## arn00b

Gulf Arabic uses Darabta buks but there also is bakasta (I punched him) bakkasta (I pounded him).


----------



## elroy

analeeh said:


> I think it's _Darabto boks_ - it's definitely _salakhto sal@kh_ which I think is basically the same construction


 I'm not sure it is.

The two are different semantically.  _Boks_ adds important information specifying how I hit him, whereas _salekh_ is just an intensifier. 

I would probably classify _boks_ as a second object.  You can say _Akammen boks Darabto?_ but you can't say *_Akammen salekh salakhto?  _(You could, however, say _Akammen salkha salakhto?_)


----------



## momai

elroy said:


> فسفوس - من يفسس او يفسفس على شخص (To me, this sounds like "something that is very small."  (I would probably say فسفوسة myself.)  We don't use it to mean "tattletale.")


We acctually use it for small things too


> خاوز مع, خورف على - أي نصب (We have خاوز مع, but it basically means the opposite!  It means "to favor" or "to give preferential treatment to"!  Is this another example of a word with radically different meanings in two Levantine dialects?  (I love those.)  I've never heard خورف على.)


That is my fault here I intended to remove خاوز مع(it is used excatly as you explained) and leave خورف although when you come to think about it ,خورف is not  a synonym for naSb but rather used this way:
رفقاتو خورفو طلعو وما ردولو خبر


> I was afraid you'd ask.
> 
> الواحد لما يكون لايص بكون منهمك أو منغمس بإشي لدرجة إنو مش فاضي يرتاح أو حتى يهتم بحالو. يعني تخيل مرة مثلاً عندها عزومة ولازم تطبخ لعشرين واحد، وبدها تعمل تلت أكلات وسلطات وتحلاي وبعرفش شو، فبتقعد يومين تلاتة تحضر وبتفضاش تمشط شعرها ومطبخها بكون قايم قاعد. هاي منقدر نقول عنها "لايصة." لما بسمع هاي الكلمة بتخيل واحد شعرو مكنفش وقواعيه مبهدلة ودارة مبربشة وهيك، فيعني الكلمة بتختلف عن "مشغول" من هاي الناحية. بالنسبة لـ"حايص" طبعًا الواحد لما يكون لايص كمان عادة بحوص كتير، بس حايص منستعملها كمان لحالها بسياقات تانية، يعني مثلاً واحد زهئان ومش عارف شو بدو يعمل يمكن يحوص، أو واحد مثلاً مرته بدها تخلًف وهو بالمستشفي يمكن يحوص.
> 
> فنس يعني لما واحد مثلاً بكون متحمس أو معجوق أو مبسوط لسبب معين وبتيجي إنت بتقوللو إشي هيك بتهبط معنوياته. يعني مثلاً واحد مبسوط إنو جايبلك هدية من السفر وبقدملك اياها بحماس بتيجي إنت بتقوللو "يي هاي عندي زيها، شو بدي أعمل فيها هلأ" هيك بتكون فنستو. أو مثلاً ولد بدو يورجي الضيوف أواعيه الجداد لإنه معجوق فيهم بتيجي إمو بتقوللو "عيب، روح ضبهم أوام" يمكن كمان ينفنس. هلأ "طص" مش بالزبط زي "فنس". "طص" أقوا. يعني إذا واحد بهدل ابنه بشكل رهيب يمكن نقول "طصو" أو إذا تنين عم بتقتلوا وواحد أهان التاني بكلامات تقيلة وخلاه هيك مش عارف شو يحكي بردو بنفع نقول إنو "طصو." بعرفش، يمكن "فنس" مش مرادف مناسب بس معرفتش كيف أشرحها بشكل مقتضب. هاي الكلامت صعب الواحد يشرحها. بس يعني "طص" بالمرة مإلهاش علاقة بـ"شاف". عن جد بسوريا معناها "شاف"؟ يعني بتقولوا "مبارح طصيت رفقاتي" يعني "مبارح شفتهم"؟



شكرا عل الشرح  
طص مستخدمة هيك بسوريا
ما عد عم طص =لم أعد أستطيع الرؤية بشكل جيد
!طص=شوف مظبوط
مالي طيصيص شي =مالي شايف شي (ظلمة)
بس ما منستخدما هيك
"مبارح طصيت رفقاتي"
ازا قلت هالجملة لشي احد يمكن يفكرك كنت اعمى وبعدين ابصرت بشوفت رفقاتك


----------



## analeeh

I may well have misunderstood the meaning of _khaawaz _when it was explained to me, but _khooraf 3ala_ is definitely used as a synonym of _naSSab_ by some people, like this:

كل الشوفرية بيخورفو عليك

Perhaps this isn't an exact synonym though, in that it means 'act dishonestly with'? I'd always assumed it was from _khiraafe _(like 'make up fantasies') but my friend told me it is from _kharuuf_, i.e. 'slaughter like a sheep' = cheat.


----------



## momai

You are right but naSb is not a full synonym of 5awraf it can't always substitute it in all situation but it has indeed to do with dishonestly and hence the similarity between the two .


----------



## elroy

Here's an initial list of Palestinian words for your review.  I'm listing them in alphabetical order and I'm not including definitions so as not to bias anyone in any way.  Please identify and define the ones you use in your dialect!

_(I wasn't always sure about ق vs. ء for words with glottal stops.  I sort of spelled them by feel.  I've added transliterations to ensure clarity.)  _

Adjectives:
زنخ (zine5)
مايص (maayeS)
مايع (maaye3)
مجعمص (mja3maS)
مرهرط (mrahreT)
مسرسب (msarsab)
معجوق (ma3juu2)
معفشك (m3afshak)
مكنفش (mkanfesh)
نايط (naayeT)
نكد (niked)

Nouns:
حربوق (7arbuu2)
عونتجي (3awantaji)
هلس (hals)
هيلمجي (helamji)

Verbs:
انبخع (inba5a3)
انفزأ (infaza2)
انفزر (infazar)
بربش (barbash)
بعزأ (ba3za2)
بهدل (bahdal)
بوّز (bawwaz)
تبرقط (tbar2aT)
تتعتس (tta3tas)
تحرأص (t7ar2aS)
تزحلق (tza7la2)
تشحشط (tsha7shaT)
تشمطط (tshamTaT)
تملكع (tmalka3)
تنفتر (tnaftar)
خوزق (5ooza2)
زعبر (za3bar)
سحل (si7el) 
شخبر (sha5bar)
شروَط (sharwaT)
طرش (Tarash)
طقّع لـ (Ta22a3 la)
غطرش (ghaTrash)
فرفط (farfaT)
فركش (farkash)
قحّ (2a77)
قشّط (2ashshaT)
كرفت (karfat)
كركب (karkab)
مرمط (marmaT)
مزط (mazaT)
نتش (natash)
نتّف (nattaf)
نقوَد (na2wad)
نقوَر (na2war)
نهر على (nahar 3ala)
هوّش (hawwash)


----------



## momai

I will try to translate what I could identify into MSA or Syrian so I can express myself better:
زنخ (zine5)   رائحته كريهة
مايع (maaye3)   غليظ أو تافه
مرهرط (mrahreT) يمكن مبهبط اي فضفاض
مسرسب (msarsab)  بمعنى منهمر الى الاسفل
معجوق (ma3juu2) مزدحم
معفشك (m3afshak) بشكل غير مرتب
مكنفش (mkanfesh) يمكن للشعر الغير مصفف
نايط (naayeT) قليل الحيلة والتفتيلة
نكد (niked) مزعج

Nouns:
حربوق (7arbuu2) ذكي
عونتجي (3awantaji) مستهتر

Verbs:
انفزر (infazar) انشق للأكياس
بعزأ (ba3za2) صرف مصاري بدون تفكير
بهدل (bahdal) أدب من خلال المسبات
تحرأص (t7ar2aS) يلعب
تزحلق (tza7la2) أليست ذاتها الكلمة الفصيحة تزحلق
تشحشط (tsha7shaT) اي انتقل من مكان الي اخر بالغصب
  خوزق (5ooza2) من الخوزقة اوالاحتيال
زعبر (za3bar) نصب
شخبر (sha5bar) شخوط
شروَط (sharwaT) شق
طرش (Tarash) أصابه بالطرش
فرفط (farfaT) هرّ
فركش (farkash)جعل شخصا يتعثر 
قشّط (2ashshaT) نزع منه شيء
كرفت (karfat) نزل كرفتة بسرعة
كركب (karkab) عكس رتب
مرمط (marmaT) تعذب
نتش (natash)  نتش الصوفاية اي سحب خيطا منها فكرت الخيطان وخربت الصوفاية ههه
نتّف (nattaf) نتف الجاجة اي ازال ريشها مثلا


----------



## davoosh

Gulf Arabic is quite distinctive. Several features come to mind (describing mostly Kuwaiti or Bahraini here)...

The vowel represented by alif usually transcribed 'aa' is always pronounced /a:/ or /ɑ:/, it is isn't fronted to /ɛ:/ like in many dialects (Egyptian, Levantine). In Bahraini the vowel is always very back /ɑ:/ (like 'a' in father) even without emphatic consonants.

The emphatic consonants have strong pharyngealisation (unlike some dialects where it is actually realised as a backing of the vowel). 

Jiim is usually /dʒ/ (English 'j') not /ʒ/ (French 'j') like in Levantine dialects. It is also often 'y' e.g. jum3a -> yim3a

Qaaf is usually /g/ and sometimes 'j' /dʒ/ e.g. jiddaam, jiriib, etc.)

Kaaf often becomes 'ch', the feminine 2nd person ending -ki is always -ch e.g. chalb, shloonich, etc.

The 3rd person feminine past form is like '(i)ktibat, (i)shribat, (i)dkhalat', etc.

The 3rd person masculine pronoun ending is _-ah_, not _-o_ or _-uh_ like most dialects.

Words which have a middle guttural consonant often change shape e.g. gahwa -> ghawa, ta3rif -> (i)t3arf

Final consonant clusters are usually broken e.g. ba7ar, akil

Final -a in Kuwaiti sounds like -e /e/ or even sometimes -ey (think of the typical way Kuwaiti's say yalla).

-sh isn't used for making verbs negatives e.g. maa ri7t, maa shift, maa kitabt. 

Some verbs have interesting forms e.g. khadheet (akhadhtu), kaleet (akaltu). I have even heard some Bahrainis say 'ra7eet' for 'ri7t'.

The short vowel 'u' (damma) is very rare.


----------



## elroy

Wow!  A lot of these have different meanings in Palestinian Arabic!  (This comparison exercise excellently demonstrates how different Levantine dialects are from each other when you go beneath the surface!) 

Same meaning:
معفشك (m3afshak) بشكل غير مرتب
مكنفش (mkanfesh) يمكن للشعر الغير مصفف
بعزأ (ba3za2) صرف مصاري بدون تفكير
تزحلق (tza7la2) أليست ذاتها الكلمة الفصيحة تزحلق (I didn't realize this was an MSA word!)
فرفط (farfaT) هرّ (It's usually used figuratively.)
كرفت (karfat) نزل كرفتة بسرعة
كركب (karkab) عكس رتب

Different meanings:
مسرسب (msarsab)  بمعنى منهمر الى الاسفل - Palestinian: obsessive
نايط (naayeT) قليل الحيلة والتفتيلة - Palestinian: sluggish, annoyingly slow, عكس حِرِك
عونتجي (3awantaji) مستهتر - Palestinian: dishonest, prone to trickery, عكس دغري
تحرأص (t7ar2aS) يلعب - Palestinian: to pace or move around nervously (similar to حاص)
زعبر (za3bar) نصب - Palestininan: to speak in a loud/obnoxious voice
شروَط (sharwaT) شق - Palestinian: to drip
نتش (natash)  نتش الصوفاية اي سحب خيطا منها فكرت الخيطان وخربت الصوفاية ههه - Palestinian: to take a bite from

Similar/possibly same meanings:
زنخ (zine5)   رائحته كريهة - It can mean that for _certain_ foods (fish, eggs, and maybe a few others), but it can also mean "annoying/obnoxious."
مايع (maaye3)   غليظ أو تافه - Generally, yes, but specifically it's similar to نايط (see above).
مرهرط (mrahreT) يمكن مبهبط اي فضفاض - Basically, yes, but it has a negative connotation (like "sagging").
معجوق (ma3juu2) مزدحم - We use this to mean "(over-)excited," in reference to a person.  For a crowded place, we could say في عجقة.  We also have the word معجّق (m3ajja2), which means "overly decorated, gaudy."
نكد (niked) مزعج - Generally, yes, but it's a specific type of مزعج.  It's someone who's (often) in a bad mood or grumpy, or someone who nags a lot.  It also means "fussy" in reference to a baby.
حربوق (7arbuu2) ذكي - Generally, yes, but specifically it's someone who has "street smarts," who's قد حالو or بنضحكش عليه.  It's not used to refer to intellectual competence.
انفزر (infazar) انشق للأكياس - It could be used that way, but most commonly we use it to mean "to get stuffed" (when you eat a lot).
بهدل (bahdal) أدب من خلال المسبات - It doesn't have to be using مسبات.
تشحشط (tsha7shaT) اي انتقل من مكان الي اخر بالغصب - It's about "going through a lot of hassle."  Like if to travel from one place to another you have to take a taxi to the train station, take the train to the airport, change plans two times, etc.  That's a lot of شحشطة.
  خوزق (5ooza2) من الخوزقة اوالاحتيال - It means "to screw over" in any way.
شخبر (sha5bar) شخوط - I don't know what شخوط means but شخبر means "to scribble."
طرش (Tarash) أصابه بالطرش - Yes, it could mean this, but the meaning I was thinking of was "to paint"!
فركش (farkash)جعل شخصا يتعثر - Yes, it can mean this, but most commonly it's used to mean "to break up (a relationship)" or "to foil (a plan or project)."
قشّط (2ashshaT) نزع منه شيء - I think it's used that way sometimes, but the most common meaning is "to clean with a squeegee (قشاطة)."
مرمط (marmaT) تعذب - Did you mean to write عذب?  مرمط is transitive and تمرمط is intransitive. But yes, it basically means عذب.  It's similar to شحشط (the transitive version of تشحشط).
نتّف (nattaf) نتف الجاجة اي ازال ريشها مثلا - I guess it could be used to mean that, but most commonly it's used generally to mean "to break or tear into tiny pieces."


----------



## elroy

davoosh said:


> The vowel represented by alif usually transcribed 'aa' is always pronounced /a:/ or /ɑ:/, it is isn't fronted to /ɛ:/ like in many dialects (Egyptian, Levantine). In Bahraini the vowel is always very back /ɑ:/ (like 'a' in father) even without emphatic consonants.


 Can you give an example? 





> Jiim is usually /dʒ/ (English 'j') not /ʒ/ (French 'j') like in Levantine dialects.


 Some Palestinian speakers have [dʒ]. 





> Qaaf is usually /g/ and sometimes 'j' /dʒ/ e.g. jiddaam, jiriib, etc.)


 Jordanian Arabic and some Palestinian dialects have [g]; I didn't know about [dʒ], though!


> Kaaf often becomes 'ch'


 Some Palestinian dialects have this.


> The 3rd person masculine pronoun ending is _-ah_, not _-o_ or _-uh_ like most dialects.
> 
> Words which have a middle guttural consonant often change shape e.g. gahwa -> ghawa, ta3rif -> (i)t3arf


 Yes, these definitely seem to be unique to the Gulf.  "Ghawa" is pretty much a Gulf-Arabic shibboleth!


> Final consonant clusters are usually broken e.g. ba7ar, akil


 This is done in all Levantine dialects, and probably other dialects as well.  In fact, Egyptian is probably one of the only dialects that _doesn't _do this!


> Final -a in Kuwaiti sounds like -e /e/ or even sometimes -ey (think of the typical way Kuwaiti's say yalla).


 Is there a pattern to this?


> -sh isn't used for making verbs negatives e.g. maa ri7t, maa shift, maa kitabt.


 I believe _-sh_ as a negator is only used in Egyptian and Palestinian (and maybe Jordanian, possibly by way of Palestinian).


----------



## davoosh

Of course, many individual features are shared with other dialects (notably Iraqi and Jordanian), but the combination of all of them makes it Khaliiji.

Regarding the vowel 'aa':

Take 'salaam' as an example, in Egyptian it sounds closer to /sɛlɛ:m/ to my ears, and I imagine it is pronounced similarly in the Levant. In Gulf Arabic, the  'aa' is further back, /sala:m/ or even /salɑ:m/. In Bahrain the vowel is pronounced quite far back that it might even sound like /ɔ:/ - I know other Gulf speakers make fun of this.
From what I've heard in other dialects, this vowel usually only occurs near emphatic or guttural consonants?

I think word-final -a becoming -e happens on most words, even with an emphatic e.g. I hear  la7DHa as la7DHe. It sounds a bit different from the Lebanese/Levantine final -e (-é) to my ears though. (Incidentally, I just watched a clip making fun of the Kuwaiti accent, and they were saying 'mar7abey', albeit exaggerating the final syllable).

Also forgot to mention emphatic D ض is pronounced as DH ظ.


----------



## elroy

davoosh said:


> Take 'salaam' as an example, in Egyptian it sounds closer to /sɛlɛ:m/ to my ears, and I imagine it is pronounced similarly in the Levant. In Gulf Arabic, the  'aa' is further back, /sala:m/ or even /salɑ:m/. In Bahrain the vowel is pronounced quite far back that it might even sound like /ɔ:/ - I know other Gulf speakers make fun of this.
> From what I've heard in other dialects, this vowel usually only occurs near emphatic or guttural consonants?


 Yes, that's correct.  So in Gulf Arabic it's never [e] or [ɛ]?


> I think word-final -a becoming -e happens on most words, even with an emphatic e.g. I hear  la7DHa as la7DHe.


 So even ta marbuta is pronounced this way?  (I don't know what word _la7DHa_/_la7DHe_ is.)


----------



## Ihsiin

davoosh said:


> Of course, many individual features are shared with other dialects (notably Iraqi and Jordanian), but the combination of all of them makes it Khaliiji.



In fact, *all *the features you listed can be found in Iraqi Arabic.



elroy said:


> (I don't know what word _la7DHa_/_la7DHe_ is.)



لحظة "moment".


----------



## Hemza

davoosh said:


> Gulf Arabic is quite distinctive. Several features come to mind (describing mostly Kuwaiti or Bahraini here)...
> 
> Jiim is usually /dʒ/ (English 'j') not /ʒ/ (French 'j') like in Levantine dialects. It is also often 'y' e.g. jum3a -> yim3a



The 'dʒ' pronunciation is also realised in many parts of Algeria.



davoosh said:


> The 3rd person masculine pronoun ending is _-ah_, not _-o_ or _-uh_ like most dialects.



It's the case in Eastern Morocco and Western Algeria and I think it's widespread in bedouin dialects of all countries.



davoosh said:


> Some verbs have interesting forms e.g. khadheet (akhadhtu), kaleet (akaltu).



This is also the case in Maghreb countries, we say 'khdeet/khdheet' and 'kleet'. Thanks, I was wondering in my previous post if this pronunciation exist somewhere else.

There is also a very odd feature I heard from an Emirati man which is also found in Maghreb countries (but only in bedouin speeches), it's the realisation of the 'غ' as a 'ق'. Does it exist among bedouins of Egypt (Sinai or anywhere else) or Sudan/Chad or bedouins of الشام و العراق for example?


----------



## elroy

Hemza said:


> -In the West of Morocco (may be other areas) they tend to transform the 'dhamma' to a kasra or a 'e', like they say 'gilt/gelt' and 'kint/kent' instead of 'gult/kunt'.


 This is done in Syrian and Lebanese as well.


> -In the South, people tend to pronounce the 'ف' as a 'v' like in Mauritania





> Tunisians tend to pronounce it 'ز' when we would pronounce 'g'. (Standard Arabic: 'jazzar" M: 'gazzar' T: 'zazzar')





> -The future is formed by putting the prefix 'غ' or 'غادي' before the verb.


Wow, I've never heard of these!  Interesting!


> -In my area in Morocco (Fès) many people tend to use تصغير which sometimes gives very odd words


 For example?


> -The use of the dual to mean the plural for some words . Example, we say 'baab/bibaan', 'kas/kisaan'. But I think it's also the case in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya (I don't know about Mauritania)


 In Palestinian Arabic "7iTaan" is often used to mean "wall" (you can also say "7eet").


----------



## Hemza

elroy said:


> This is done in Syrian and Lebanese as well.



Thanks, I had no idea


elroy said:


> For example?



Mmm... Well, it gives very odd results . For example, if you ask someone if he/she wants bread with honey, it is normally said 'تبغي خبز بالعسل؟' but with تصغير, it becomes: 'tabghi khbiyez bil 3asila?' It's mostly used by old people as new generations tend to avoid it, because it's often mocked (especially when used by a man)


elroy said:


> In Palestinian Arabic "7iTaan" is often used to mean "wall" (you can also say "7eet").



For this word, we would say 'حيط' and its plural is 'حيوط' as Tounsi51 said


analeeh said:


> What about:
> سلخ - ضرب


This verb is used in Morocco but it means 'to slaughter'. Well, I'm not 100% sure of its meaning, it may be 'ضرب' as well, but I perfectly remember my mother saying it to me when I was little, in general, this word itself was enough to make me quiet


----------



## rayloom

Hemza said:


> -The use of the dual to mean the plural for some words . Example, we say 'baab/bibaan', 'kas/kisaan'. But I think it's also the case in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya (I don't know about Mauritania)



Hi Hemza
The form fi3lān is a broken plural form. 
Cf. jār --> jīrān (pl.) vs. jārān (du.)
Nār --> nīrān (pl.)


----------



## davoosh

@elroy  Kuwaiti and Bahraini never have 'aa' as /e:/ or /ɛ:/.

@Ihsiin Yeah, I often can't really distinguish southern Iraqi  dialects from Kuwaiti. Maybe you could tell us what would differentiate them?

I know Iraqi's say 'oo' and 'ee' e.g. in 'shloon' and 'beet' slightly differently from Kuwaiti but I can't describe it well. I think Iraqi also splits more final clusters than Kuwait/Khaliiji e.g. Iraqi's say 'binit' whereas Kuwaiti keeps 'bint'?

I forgot to mention that some Kuwaiti speakers also have ghayn as qaaf in some words (qeer for gheer, etc.)

It's interesting that a lot of North African dialects, especially the Bedouin ones, share a lot of features with Khaliiji.

I think a lot of features which are seen as bedouin in the other parts of the Arab world are standard or widespread in the Gulf regardless.


----------



## Hemza

analeeh said:


> This isn't the dual, it's an extension of the msa plural pattern fiilaan, as in jiiraan.





rayloom said:


> Hi Hemza
> The form fi3lān is a broken plural form.
> Cf. jār --> jīrān (pl.) vs. jārān (du.)
> Nār --> nīrān (pl.)



Thank you, I didn't know, I thought it comes from the dual (I obviously must work on dual forms ).



davoosh said:


> @elroyI forgot to mention that some Kuwaiti speakers also have ghayn as qaaf in some words (qeer for gheer, etc.)
> 
> It's interesting that a lot of North African dialects, especially the Bedouin ones, share a lot of features with Khaliiji.



Yes, this is this feature I was talking about (غ to ق). I guess most of Maghribi dialects comes from dialects spoken in Hijaz, Najd and Yemen (and Andalus for some parts). As far as I know, Khaliji and Najdi form a part of a continuum, so it's not surprising that we find many similarities between Arabian and Maghribi dialects (like the use of أرى in Maghribi, ترى in Arabia, or 'توا' in Tunisia/Libya as well as in Arabia and many many other expressions that I only heard from Saudis/Gulf people but never from Egyptians or Levantine people, that is said, I'm not assuming that those latter dialects don't have similar expressions).


----------



## elroy

davoosh said:


> @elroy  Kuwaiti and Bahraini never have 'aa' as /e:/ or /ɛ:/.


 That's interesting.  I should point out, though, that I believe the Levantine (and MSA) pronunciation is actually [æ:] and not [e:] or [ɛ:] (see this).

On the subject of differences between Levantine dialects, I'd be interested in replies to this thread; I started it a while ago but never got the answers I was looking for.


----------



## davoosh

In some words I think I've heard something which sounds more similar to /e:/ - doesn't imaalah affect long 'aa' in Levantine dialects?  I might be imagining things though or confusing it with Egyptian. 

For example ثاني sounds like /te:ni/ or /tɛ:ni/ when I hear an Egyptian say it (and possibly in the Levant) . Whereas the 'aa' rhymes with the 'a' in 'father' in Gulf dialects (thaani /θɑ:ni/).


----------



## elroy

What you're saying is true of Lebanese Arabic, but not Levantine Arabic generally.  My تاني is [tæ:ni], whereas in Lebanese Arabic it would be something like [te:ne].  I think you may be right about Egyptian as well, but either way, [æ] is definitely the more pervasive pronunciation, generally speaking.


----------



## tounsi51

Is the word تخت for bed a Levantine Arabic feature? I have heard this only from Lebanese.


----------



## elroy

We use it in Palestinian Arabic.


----------



## Hemza

davoosh said:


> I forgot to mention that some Kuwaiti speakers also have ghayn as qaaf in some words (qeer for gheer, etc.)



Two hours ago, I watched a wonderful Iraqi film-documentary called 'Iraq, Homeland année zéro' (Iraq, year zero in English) from 3abbas faaDel (I advise people to watch it if it's available, not for sensitive people though ) and I heard a man who pronounced the name 'قاسيم' as 'غاسيم'.
It is the opposite of the 'غ' to 'ق' switch and as far as I know, it (ق to غ) doesn't exist in Maghribi dialects (contrary to for example, أغنية which turns into أقنية in Maghribi bedouin speeches)

May be an Iraqi or someone who knows Iraqi can give an explanation about this feature? Is it widely used? An old fashioned feature? Etc. I guess it exists in Kuwait too?


----------



## analeeh

q to gh is often accompanied by the reverse switch. For example, there are people from raqqa who say غطار for قطار.


----------



## momai

In some Syrian series (musalsalat) I hear sometimes غضران instead of قدران


----------



## analeeh

momai said:


> In some Syrian series (musalsalat) I hear sometimes غضران instead of قدران



Which ones?


----------



## Hemza

So it exists in Syria as well. Thank to both of you . I've never heard such a feature, I mean it might be hard to be understood by everyone even inside one country  (well it's obvious but such a feature is astonishing). I say this as a non-user of such feature so I hope I'm not hurting anyone neither on the forum nor outside.


----------



## Ihsiin

davoosh said:


> @Ihsiin Yeah, I often can't really distinguish southern Iraqi  dialects from Kuwaiti. Maybe you could tell us what would differentiate them?
> 
> I know Iraqi's say 'oo' and 'ee' e.g. in 'shloon' and 'beet' slightly differently from Kuwaiti but I can't describe it well. I think Iraqi also splits more final clusters than Kuwait/Khaliiji e.g. Iraqi's say 'binit' whereas Kuwaiti keeps 'bint'?
> 
> I forgot to mention that some Kuwaiti speakers also have ghayn as qaaf in some words (qeer for gheer, etc.)
> 
> It's interesting that a lot of North African dialects, especially the Bedouin ones, share a lot of features with Khaliiji.
> 
> I think a lot of features which are seen as bedouin in the other parts of the Arab world are standard or widespread in the Gulf regardless.



I don't think it's sensible to simply try and differentiate Iraqi and Kuwaiti dialects like that - rather they exist within a continuum, and you will find features more common here or there, but I don't think there is a very useful shibboleth here.

As far as _bint _is concerned, yes _binit _is present in Iraqi, though personally I think _bitt _is more common. The pronunciation _bint_ will also be present, of course, though it sounds like a classicism to me.


----------



## Zoghbi

Hemza said:


> It is the opposite of the 'غ' to 'ق' switch and as far as I know, it (ق to غ) doesn't exist in Maghribi dialects (contrary to for example, أغنية which turns into أقنية in Maghribi bedouin speeches)



ق to غ exist in Maghreb. It's very frequent (almost a rule when the Gaf can't be placed, they seem to hate the sound "q") in Wadi Souf region (South-Estern Algeria), also South-Tunisia I suppose, where  غ to ق  is unknown.
We found it also coexisting with  غ to ق  (Algeria's Central badwi speech and Hassaniya dialect) in much less frequent proportion. So there you can in theory hear some disturbing sentences as "amma lba*gh*i ba*q*yin enla77*g*uh lel mente*gh*a hadhi" ---> اما الباقي باغيين نلحّقوه ل المنطقة هاظي 
There is some terms (words and verbs) I'd noticed wich the ق can be replace by غ:
يقدر
منطقة
وقت
طاقة الشمسية
يقرا
قاضي
يقوم
قرأن
قرعة
استقلال
مستقبل
تقريباً
قول
سراق


----------



## Hemza

Zoghbi said:


> استقلال



So استقلال becomes استغلال?


----------



## Zoghbi

Yes and استغلال is almost always prononced استقلال.
But I confirm that ق to غ  is rare in dialects wich have  غ to ق.


----------



## Suqutra

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread -- Ghabi]
مرجبًا
I would find it easier to learn or identify other dialects if I were to know their sound/word changes from Fus7a (Classical Arabic).

Here's an example;

In Egyptian, the jeem becomes a g jamal to gamal
The hamza is truncated from the end of a word sayna' to seena
The ya' in the middle of a word becomes an ee sayna' to seena

Another example;


Ihsiin said:


> The sequence [q] -> [g] -> [dʒ] is almost certain. In Iraqi at least every instance of ق as [dʒ] exists as a variation of ق as [g] (apart from _jāsim _I think, I've never heard anyone say _gāsim_, but perhaps even that exists), and more broadly the Iraqi and Gulf dialects exist in a continuum of dialects where ق is generally realised as [g] or some variation thereof. I don't think the [k] variant is relevant here - this only occurs when ق proceeds the voiceless ت and thus the [g] is devoiced to [k] (e.g. وكت، كتل). And yes, even this [k] can shift to [tʃ], as we can find چتل _četil _= killing.


----------



## Hemza

Hey, that's an interesting thread you opened although there are some already available about this topic but no one of them gather all the information.

  For what concerns Maghreb countries :
-the sound ق either remains as it is in فصحى (urban or pre-hilalian Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian dialects), is not pronounced (but this became rare and is fading out) or most of the time, is pronounced g (all the rest) but even in "g areas" there are qaf words. One exception: Jijel in Algeria where ك and ق are confused
The ء is often omitted, whether at the beginning of words or in their middle (except to my knowledge in some urban dialects of Morocco and probably the same goes for Algeria and Tunisia). This is I think a bedouin influence.
-for many words, the first letter is often pronounced with a sukun (much more prevalent amongst rural/bedouin dialects than the urban ones) but not all of them.
-the غ sometimes switches to a ق  in some bedouin dialects of Mauritania, Morocco Algeria and Libya (so غنم becomes قنم)
-usually, the ج is pronounced as a French J (except in central Algeria where it is the English J). But when this letter meets with a ز, ص، س or ش, its sound changes (except in Algeria and some parts of Mauritania where it remains J). In Morocco, it becomes g (like in Egypt) or د in Western Morocco while in some parts of Mauritania, Tunisia and Libya, it becomes ز. "Butcher" is "gezzar" or "dezzar" (this one is typically Western) in Morocco, "jezzar" in Mauritania/Algeria and "zezzar" in Mauritania/Tunisia/Libya (haha).

In Morocco (don't know for others) diphtongs remains in bedouin and some rural and urban dialects while others tend to use monophtongs ("bayt/zayn" in some dialects is "beet/zeen" for some others)
-In Mauritania (and more broadly, amongst 7assaniya dialect speakers), there is a tendancy to use الإمالة (the sound "a" becomes "é" in some words like ana becomes ané). This is muuuch more prevalent amongst Tunisians. In Morocco/Algeria, one would hears "smaa/maa2" in Tunisia, it is "sméé/méé2" (haha)
-letters like ث ذ respectively becomes د and ت in urban dialects of Morocco and more and more amongst rural speakers under the influence of urban dialects. Bedouin dialects and some rural dialects continue to keep them as ذ, ث.

There are maaaany other changes compared to الفصحى (I don't want to mention vowels because this concerns almost all dialects, it's useless) but those are the ones which came to my mind right now

If I may add something I discovered about Egyptian with an Egyptian friend, it's this same إمالة and my friend sometimes pronounces the a sound as an é at the end of some words (wa7da becomes wa7dé). This is peculiar to rural/Sa3idi dialects.


----------



## apricots

Hemza said:


> If I may add something I discovered about Egyptian with an Egyptian friend, it's this same إمالة and my friend sometimes pronounces the a sound as an é at the end of some words (wa7da becomes wa7dé). This is peculiar to rural/Sa3idi dialects.



This is interesting, I don't remember hearing it when I was in Upper Egypt. I did find that the Egyptian pronunciation of alef can tend towards إمالة but that just may be my non-native ears.


----------



## Hemza

apricots said:


> This is interesting, I don't remember hearing it when I was in Upper Egypt. I did find that the Egyptian pronunciation of alef can tend towards إمالة but that just may be my non-native ears.



I mean the فتحة at the end of some words turns into an é sound. I noticed it in my Egyptian friend speech (not Upper Egyptian but from rural origin) and I also heard it from people from الصعيد in videos and sparsely in real life during the few occasions I could hear Upper Egyptians talking in streets (in France). It may be regional and/or depending on generation?

It's not as strong as the Tunisian/Levantine امالة though.


----------



## Hemza

A feature typical of the Maghreb (with the exception of Tunisian) is the use of the verb دار/يدير for "to do".
By the way, I would like to settle this matter: Is this verb which is used across Morocco, Algeria and Libya (even in Western Egypt), used in Tunisia? I've never heard Tunisians using it and I suspect Southern Tunisians to use it (isn't their dialect a continuum of Western Libyan?). I've always heard them saying عمل. This latter in Morocco (and probably in Algeria too) is mainly urban (دار/يدير is basically the rural/bedouin variant but it extended to most cities now). Does Tunisian ignore this split for this verb?

What also puzzles me is that in Arabia, this verb isn't seem to be used with this meaning although it's bedouins from there who brought it in the Maghreb (and this verb is probably one of these dialects' most distinctive feature).



Ghabi said:


> How about the _bookol/bookhod_ pronunciation? Is it unique to PA?


Although not exactly the same pronunciation, نوكل (_nawkel_- I eat) and نوخذ (_nawkhedh_-I take) are also used in Hassania dialect (although I'm used to ناكل and ناخذ).

I also discovered something odd in common between Hassania speakers and Palestinians! Some Hassania speakers instead of saying اثنين say ثنتين (thentiin) and Palestinians -based on my mates' speech- say تنتين (téntèèn).


----------



## apricots

Hemza said:


> I also discovered something odd in common between Hassania speakers and Palestinians! Some Hassania speakers instead of saying اثنين say ثنتين (thentiin) and Palestinians -based on my mates' speech- say تنتين (téntèèn).



Tintēn isn't used instead of tnēn but as the feminine form in PA and the other Levantine dialects afaik.


----------



## wriight

Ooh, from the first page -- I'd been under the impression that ma-less _-sh_ negation was a feature of Levantine in general. (I'm certainly familiar with it from rural Leb, and I've seen "baddesh" from Jordanians (although-yeah-that-might-be-Palestinian-influence-wallahu-a3lam))
Also, if "bookol/bookhod" is referring to _ō_ rather than _ū_, then that could perhaps be found around Tripoli or Akkar! (I'm actually not sure if their /a(ː)/>/o(ː)/ only applies to emphatics or something, though)

--

I only use _tentēn_ for time, as in 2:00, although my dad will use it in other contexts occasionally. Interestingly, I asked my mom about its use the other day, and she initially said "oh, well you can't use it except for feminines", but then tried to give an example and realized she'd use _tnēn_ even for e.g. _kam benet fī?_. I'm in the same boat, I suppose.

Here are some features of Lebanese that I _think_ could be unique, although I am 100% expecting to be called out:

as I understand it, the merging of final -i/-e and -u/-o into the less-tense variants
'partial' monophthongization, where the diphthongs reappear if a second syllable is added: _bēt/baytak_, _Sōt/Sawtak; ma 3ende 7ēl/nhadd 7ayle_
unrelated to its uniqueness, but I seriously did not catch on to this consciously until I was maybe 13 years old and trying to figure out the pronunciation of a certain vulgarity  hadn't even realized the pair in the last example were the same word!

Extensive /tˤ/->/t/ in some regions, especially among older folks

Swapping of "w" and the pronoun in the usual "while..." construction: _hiyye w3am temshe, enta wjēye, ana wZ8īr_
you can still say things like "fēt w ana besshower", but it... feels different? Not positive lol

Levelling of all "fa3a" verbs into "fe3e", leading to past-tense constructions like _2rīt_ and _l2īt_.
I don't myself have this universally -- _2ara/2arēt_, _la2a/la2ēt_ -- and I do wonder (1) if for these speakers the words _7ama_ "to protect" and _7eme_ "to heat up[intrans]" have merged, and (2) if this spreads to all conjugations, leading to _2eryo_ and _le2yo_ and so on. (For me and my parents, "fe3e" verbs conjugate as _f3īt/f3īte/fe3yet/fe3yo_ and "fa3a" as _fa3ēt/fa3ayte/fa3et/fa3o_)

I know comparing vocab is mostly a crapshoot, but still  here are some things, listed in ascending order of (perceived) obscurity:
_mnōb_, "[not ...] at all": I have a feeling this is from *_bnōb_, where _nōb_ is similar to نوبة in the sense of "occasion". That would make it parallel to بالمرة. Would be surprised if _m/bnōb_ were actually not found anywhere else, though
_7ayyad_, "to veer around"; _sharsha5ōn, shalsha5ōn_, "cobweb-stuff"; (_la)7attēlte, ta7attele_ (south/north), "in order to", contrasting with _la7atta_ which gets reduced in scope to only mean "until". Again, would be surprised if these were indeed unique
Vowel harmony amirite: _2oule_, feminine imperative of قال, gets turned to _2il-/2īl-_ when given a laam ('dative'?) suffix, e.g. _2ilīle _قولي لي.
I've caught myself accidentally saying _shīfīle_ شوفيلي and _bijoubouhon _بجيبهون but that is inarguably idiosyncratic lol

The term "eshb", as in _shu eshbak?_ ("what's with you?", synonymous with many other _shu ...-k_ constructions) and _eshba shī?_ ("is there something wrong with it?"). Pretty hilarious seeing as it would have been formed from reanalysis of "ēsh b-" as a single word

_-ahle_ suffix for demonstratives and locatives (correct terminology?), suggesting immediate proximity: _heðahle/hēðiyahle_ "this one(m/f) right here", _hawðiyahle_ "these ones right here", _honahle_ "right here"
my mom says it comes from an older word _halli _which meant "right here", apparently usable as e.g. _hawni halli_??

_b7ezz/b7eze_, meaning "move!": I cannot find any record of this word (or _ba7az_ or whatever other form it might have) online lol.


----------



## elroy

wriight said:


> I'd been under the impression that ma-less _-sh_ negation was a feature of Levantine in general


 I would say it's a distinctive Palestinian feature in that it's widespread across (both urban and rural) regions in Palestine.  I think in other Levantine countries its occurrence is much more limited.


wriight said:


> if "bookol/bookhod" is referring to _ō_ rather than _ū_


 No, it's referring to "ō" for "ā."


wriight said:


> she'd use _tnēn_ even for e.g. _kam benet fī?_


 Definitely "tintēn" for me.  We've discovered in other threads that Palestinian is more conservative with regard to gender agreement than Syrian and Lebanese.  For example, off the top of my head, Syrian uses "tabaʿ" and "anu" invariably, and Lebanese uses "iwʿa" invariably.  In Palestinian, gender agreement is not optional for any of these.


wriight said:


> as I understand it, the merging of final -i/-e and -u/-o into the less-tense variants


 This is found in Galilean, although there may be ever-so-slight differences in vowel quality between Galilean and Lebanese.


wriight said:


> 'partial' monophthongization, where the diphthongs reappear if a second syllable is added: _bēt/baytak_, _Sōt/Sawtak; ma 3ende 7ēl/nhadd 7ayle_


 Definitely a distinctive Lebanese feature!


wriight said:


> Extensive /tˤ/->/t/ in some regions, especially among older folks


 Yes, I would consider this distinctively Lebanese as well, although I would have thought it was more common among younger people!


wriight said:


> Levelling of all "fa3a" verbs into "fe3e", leading to past-tense constructions like _2rīt_ and _l2īt_.
> 
> I don't myself have this universally -- _2ara/2arēt_, _la2a/la2ēt_ -- and I do wonder (1) if for these speakers the words _7ama_ "to protect" and _7eme_ "to heat up[intrans]" have merged, and (2) if this spreads to all conjugations, leading to _2eryo_ and _le2yo_ and so on. (For me and my parents, "fe3e" verbs conjugate as _f3īt/f3īte/fe3yet/fe3yo_ and "fa3a" as _fa3ēt/fa3ayte/fa3et/fa3o_)


 In Palestinian, "ʾrīt" occurs but not "lʾīt" as far as I know.  I can't answer (1), but I can say that for (2), yes, for speakers with "ʾrīt," it's "ʾiryu."


wriight said:


> _mnōb_, "[not ...] at all": I have a feeling this is from *_bnōb_, where _nōb_ is similar to نوبة in the sense of "occasion". That would make it parallel to بالمرة. Would be surprised if _m/bnōb_ were actually not found anywhere else, though


 This is a quintessential Syrian word!   In fact, I'm surprised to hear it's used in Lebanese.  And yes, the original form is "bnōb," but I don't know if it's related to نوبة (I've never thought about it).  نوبة for me is not a neutral "occasion"; it's more like "bout/fit/attack."  It's much, much more restricted than مرّة.


wriight said:


> _7ayyad_, "to veer around"; _sharsha5ōn, shalsha5ōn_, "cobweb-stuff"; (_la)7attēlte, ta7attele_ (south/north), "in order to"


 "ḥayyad" is used in Galilean.  "Cobweb-stuff" is "shaʿshabōn" (so not the same but similar); it's also used for "spider," by the way.  We definitely don't have those words for "in order to"; we don't even have "laḥatta," which to me sounds Syrian. (I would have expected "kirmēl" in Lebanese.)


wriight said:


> _2oule_, feminine imperative of قال, gets turned to _2il-/2īl-_ when given a laam ('dative'?) suffix, e.g. _2ilīle _قولي لي


 I think this is found in Syrian too. (It's not found in Palestinian.)


wriight said:


> The term "eshb", as in _shu eshbak?_ ("what's with you?", synonymous with many other _shu ...-k_ constructions) and _eshba shī?_ ("is there something wrong with it?")


 I've never heard these in Palestinian.


wriight said:


> _-ahle_ suffix for demonstratives and locatives (correct terminology?), suggesting immediate proximity: _heðahle/hēðiyahle_ "this one(m/f) right here", _hawðiyahle_ "these ones right here", _honahle_ "right here"


 I've never heard these in Palestinian, either.


wriight said:


> _b7ezz/b7eze_, meaning "move!": I cannot find any record of this word (or _ba7az_ or whatever other form it might have) online lol.


 We have this with a slightly different pronunciation: "baḥḥez/baḥḥzi/baḥḥzu."  This is an interesting one because it's used in Jerusalem but not in the Galilee, to my knowledge.  I usually expect that Jerusalem features not found in the Galilee are not found in Lebanese, but of course there's not just the geographical axis but the urban-rural axis as well, so this one might be a Jerusalem/Beirut feature.


----------



## wriight

Thank you!! And, you know, I actually got a little bit sidetracked and started listing stuff I know to be specific to my parents' pocket of Lebanon rather than Lebanese in general. So we can narrow down "distinctive features of Lebanese-in-General" to:

partial monophthongization
excessive /tˤ/->/t/
perhaps excessive "fe3e"-levelling
Vocab:
ta7attele (unless someone Syrian can attest it) (the _la7attēlte_ form I've in fact never heard except from family lol)
eshb (unless Syrian again)

Of the rest, I think _-ahle_ and _mnōb_ are found all across the country in rural areas, while _sha(r/l)sha5ōn_ and _b7ez_ are Southern (the latter is in the same situation as _la7attēlte_ for me) — and I have no idea about _7ayyad_ — so they can't be included in a general "distinctive Lebanese features" list. I'm very happy to see a real link for _b7ez_, though — it's haunted me for ages  As for "in order to", I'll admit I myself have started 100% relying on _menshēn_ when I'm not using _la_, but _((t/l)a)7atta_ are still very much alive; _kermēl_ is more restricted AFAICT and I think its use is still limited to that of its origin, كرمة ل.

Any verdict on "ana w..." & co? And, heck, lemme double-dip because I forgot this one: I think something telling of a younger/more-contemporary Lebanese speaker would be the loss of /h/ in _-īha, -īhon, -ouha, -ouhon_ and compensatory gemination of the resulting semivowel: _-iyya_, _-iyyon_, _-uwwa_, _-uwwon_. (_-ēha_ and -_ēhon_ are safe for now, at least!)



elroy said:


> No, it's referring to "ō" for "ā."


Ah, what I meant was "if it's referring to _ō-_for-_ā_ rather than _ū_-for-_ā_" (because the <oo> there was ambiguous). For your other two points at the start, the gender-agreement thing is very enlightening and I'm 100% on board with your conclusion about -_sh_-without-_ma_'s status.


----------



## elroy

elroy said:


> wriight said:
> 
> 
> 
> as I understand it, the merging of final -i/-e and -u/-o into the less-tense variants
> 
> 
> 
> This is found in Galilean, although there may be ever-so-slight differences in vowel quality between Galilean and Lebanese.
Click to expand...

 Let me backtrack a bit and say I may have spoken too quickly here.

The first thing I thought of was -e to -i, as in "madrasi" for "madrase," but you actually meant the opposite (-i to -e).  -i to -e _does_ occur in Galilean as well, *but* it's most likely not as "pronounced" as in Lebanese.  I feel like in Lebanese it's far more widespread and consistent, and possibly the Lebanese vowel is closer to an -e than the Galilean one.  The same might be the case for -u to -o.  What I'm trying to say is that we probably _could_ still classify this as a distinctively Lebanese feature, even if it occurs to some extent in Galilean (kind of like what I said about -sh negation in Palestinian).

Maybe you can give a few examples of -i to -e and -u to -o in Lebanese, and I'll give you my impressions as to how these behave in Galilean? 


wriight said:


> _kermēl_ is more restricted AFAICT and I think its use is still limited to that of its origin, كرمة ل.


 Are you sure?  In my experience, it's used A LOT in Lebanese, in may contexts it would not be used in in Palestinian.  Again, maybe you can give a few examples of how it's used?  Also, what do you mean by كرمة?  The first thing I thought of was "vineyard" or "orchard"  but surely you must mean something else?  Probably something related to generosity I guess?  

In any event, in Palestinian كرمال _is_ restricted.  It's used to mean "for the sake of"; it's pretty intense.  For example, ضحيت بكل إشي كرمال ولادي.  Lebanese people, in my experience, tend to use it in really banal contexts like رحت ع السوق كرمال اشتري بندورة .

Another thing: In Palestinian كرمال cannot followed by a subjunctive verb, as in the tomato example above.  It has to be followed by a noun.  This is another Lebanese-Palestinian difference, regardless of the context.  In other words, in Palestinian we wouldn't say ضحيت بكل إشي كرمال ولادي يتوفّقوا.  Even though the meaning is essentially the same as in the corresponding sentence above, here we would use عشان/مِشان/منشان. 


wriight said:


> Any verdict on "ana w..." & co?


 Oops, I missed that one!   This definitely doesn't occur in Palestinian.  To me, it sounds distinctly Lebanese, but I _think_ -- but I'm not sure -- I may have heard it a couple times used by a Syrian.  I've definitely overwhelmingly heard it from Lebanese people, though.  Good example! 


wriight said:


> I think something telling of a younger/more-contemporary Lebanese speaker would be the loss of /h/ in _-īha, -īhon, -ouha, -ouhon_ and compensatory gemination of the resulting semivowel: _-iyya_, _-iyyon_, _-uwwa_, _-uwwon_.


 This is definitely widespread in Syrian.  It's not used in Palestinian.

As you can see, it's much easier to find Southern-Northern differences than Syrian-Lebanese (or Palestinian-Jordanian) differences! 


wriight said:


> Ah, what I meant was "if it's referring to _ō-_for-_ā_ rather than _ū_-for-_ā_" (because the <oo> there was ambiguous).


 Ah, I see!  Yes, <oo> is ambiguous.  What was meant here was "ō" and not "ū."


----------



## analeeh

> Any verdict on "ana w..." & co?



This is very widespread in Syrian.



> _2oule_, feminine imperative of قال, gets turned to _2il-/2īl-_ when given a laam ('dative'?) suffix, e.g. _2ilīle _قولي لي



This also happens in Syrian, but I don't think it's a matter of vowel harmony _per se. _I've never heard the form with long _ii_, while the form with a short vowel is just the normal reduction of an unstressed long _uu/ii_ to the neutral schwa vowel (realised in this environment as something resembling _i_). It also happens for example in _bi2iluulak_ where there's no _ii_ vowel, and I think might even be generalisable more broadly (I've definitely heard _bishifuulak _from some speakers for example). Weirder is the form _2il-lak_ where it's an _aa_ that gets shortened.

The spread of the _fi3i_ paradigm at the expense of _fa3a_ does seem to be more advanced in Lebanon but I know Jordanians who say _li2i_ (for example) and this is also a feature of the Syrian coastal areas.


----------



## Hemza

wriight said:


> _mnōb_, "[not ...] at all": I have a feeling this is from *_bnōb_, where _nōb_ is similar to نوبة in the sense of "occasion". That would make it parallel to بالمرة. Would be surprised if _m/bnōb_ were actually not found anywhere else, though


Akin to نوبة in Morocco which means "a turn" (نوبتك means "your turn").


> _7ayyad,_"to veer around"


Means "to remove" or "to put aside" in Morocco.
_



			b7ezz/b7eze, meaning "move!": I cannot find any record of this word (or ba7az or whatever other form it might have) online lol.
		
Click to expand...

_I wonder if its roots isn't ق-ح-ز because in Morocco we say "اقحز" or "قحز" (pronounced with a g or a k because of the following ح) and it bears the same meaning.


----------



## wriight

Okay, I think the obvious conclusion is that I need to listen to more Levantine media  I should be more in-tune with how modern Lebanese sounds, if not Syrian too.

Huh, I recognize that كرمال but my own usage of it is definitely closer to yours. And ye, I read that it's from كُرمةً لِ -- "as an instance of generosity towards", by the looks of it?

_bi2iluulak_ is interesting! For me, it's a long vowel _2īl_ that only occurs with _2oulīl-_ forms, hence 'vowel harmony' -- but that was also facetious ('amirite') because it's not a regular thing. I think _2illak_ is normal or at least predictable, actually -- the _l-_ suffixes will shorten long vowels (_shiflak_, _re7li_, _jebli..._)

EDIT: oohowait, "long _aa_" -- do you mean _2illak_ for قال لك rather than for eg اقول لك?


----------



## TalibAmreeki

For those who are from Tunisia or anyone familiar with the region, what would you consider to be obvious markers of Tunisian Arabic? Are there specific words or phrases that are easily identified as Tunisian?


----------



## fenakhay

برشا comes to mind.


----------



## Hemza

برشا (a lot)
يعيشك (thank you)
سورية (shirt)
باهي (good, nice)
ثمّة/ما ثمّاش (there is, there isn't)
اجى (come)
عظمة (egg) 
توّا (now)
جمعة (a week)

The list isn't exhaustive since I'm not Tunisian but this is what I have in mind now. That probably what distinguishes the best Tunisian from its fellow dialects (the rest of the Maghreb). Note that some words are shared with Eastern Algeria and Western Libya (باهي, توا between others)

@djara and @tounsi51 know better than me.


----------



## Schem

Barsha برشة, thamma/famma ثمة, and ye3ayshek يعيشك are the most recognizable Tunisian shibboleths.



Hemza said:


> جمعة (a week)



I thought only Lebanese had this. Great list.


----------



## akhooha

how about ياسر (yaasir) [very]?






0


----------



## Hemza

I forgot ! أنتِ for both males and females  : D (in place of أنتَ and أنتِ).


akhooha said:


> how about ياسر (yaasir) [very]


Very or a lot
Also used in Mauritania (the only one used there), Morocco, Algeria and Libya.


----------



## fenakhay

أجي is used in Algeria and Morocco.


----------



## elroy

Isn't نجّم for "to be able to" also distinctively Tunisian?


Schem said:


> I thought only Lebanese had this


 Palestinian does too.


----------



## tounsi51

Hemza said:


> اجى (come)



Yes correct

Come is ايجا




fenakhay said:


> أجي is used in Algeria and Morocco.





elroy said:


> Isn't نجّم for "to be able to" also distinctively Tunisian?
> Palestinian does too.



Yes although it is used in some areas of Morocco and Algeria

Imala is also a relevant feature in Tunisian Arabic, Moroccans and Algerians can relate


----------



## elroy

Another Tunisian feature I think might be distinctive:

Doesn't Tunisian use في as a marker of progressive aspect, as in نستنى فيك ("I'm waiting for you") (as opposed to نستناك ("I wait for you")), or فاش تعمل؟ ("What are you doing?") (as opposed to  آش يعمل كل شهر؟ ("What does he do every month?"))?  Do any other dialects have this usage?


Hemza said:


> اجى (come)





tounsi51 said:


> Yes correct
> 
> Come is ايجا


 Sorry, what is distinctive about this?
Palestinian has أجى (_aja_) or إجى (_ija_) in the past tense, and I think many other dialects have similar forms.
Is it that Tunisian uses this word (what's the pronunciation?) for the _imperative _(as opposed to تعال, which I assume is what most if not all other dialects use)? 





fenakhay said:


> أجي is used in Algeria and Morocco.


 Is this the same word as the Tunisian word (is it pronounced the same?)?  Again, is it imperative?


----------



## fenakhay

elroy said:


> Sorry, what is distinctive about this?
> Palestinian has أجى (_aja_) or إجى (_ija_) in the past tense, and I think many other dialects have similar forms.
> Is it that Tunisian uses this word (what's the pronunciation?) for the _imperative _(as opposed to تعال, which I assume is what most if not all other dialects use)?





elroy said:


> Is this the same word as the Tunisian word (is it pronounced the same?)? Again, is it imperative?



أجي is the imperative form of جا. There is also the variant جي used in some Moroccan dialects.


----------



## elroy

Ah, okay!  So تعال is أجي (_aji_?) in Moroccan and Algerian and إيجا (_īja_?) in Tunisian?

By the way, some Palestinian children use إيجي (_īji_) for the imperative because they've overgeneralized an imperative-forming pattern and haven't yet acquired the irregular تعال.


----------



## tounsi51

Yes exactly,  تعال   is almost inexistant or used in some areas where bedouin accents are spoken.

ج + ز in the same word: ج becomes ز

جوز becomes زوز
جزار becomes ززار


----------



## elroy

What about في as a progressive marker?


----------



## tounsi51

I think you are right, I have to understand first what is progressive marker 

we also say نعمل في قهوة

Otherwise to express: i am doing, we also say اش قاعد تعمل


----------



## elroy

progressive = I am waiting for you (right now)
non-progressive = I wait for you (every day after school)

Palestinian uses قاعد as a progressive marker, as well as عم and عمّال.


----------



## tounsi51

We use also قاعد


----------



## fenakhay

elroy said:


> What about في as a progressive marker?



This is also used in Morocco. Some use قاعد, جالس or ساير.


----------



## elroy

بستنى فيك is used in Palestinian, but the في is not a progressive marker but an intensifier.  We can say كل يوم بستنى فيك (non-progressive, emphatic), whereas I assume كل يوم نستنى فيك wouldn’t make sense in Tunisian and Moroccan?


----------



## tounsi51

If we are angry against someone, and emphasis it and that we are done wit this, we can say

!!!كل يوم نقعد نستنى فيك

Then we can add, hurry up


----------



## Hemza

fenakhay said:


> أجي is used in Algeria and Morocco.


Moroccans say أجي (aajii) while Tunisians say ايجى (iijaa) for the imperative. Note that in Morocco, تعال used to be much more spread than it is today. أجي was limited to pre hilalian dialects (مدني and جبلي dialects) while rural and bedouin speakers (who are the majority) say تعال. You can still hear تعال amongst rural speakers today and in Hassaniya, only تعال is used.

As for Algeria, أجي is also the traditional urban form but it's more and more replaced by أروح (arwa7) which sounds distinctively Algerian by the way.


----------



## Hemza

elroy said:


> Another Tunisian feature I think might be distinctive:
> 
> Doesn't Tunisian use في as a marker of progressive aspect, as in نستنى فيك ("I'm waiting for you") (as opposed to نستناك ("I wait for you")), or فاش تعمل؟ ("What are you doing?") (as opposed to  آش يعمل كل شهر؟ ("What does he do every month?"))?  Do any other dialects have this usage?


This is a feature present in all Maghrebi dialects. Using فعل+في shows that you've been doing something for a more or less long time. For instance: نشوفك I see you
نشوف فيك I've been seeing you for (a while).
or
تشوفني you see me
مالك تشوف فيا؟ why are you staring at me?

This is appliable to many verbs.

فاش is only the contracted form of في أي شي (like باش, وقتاش etc) which means "in what". For instance فاش تشتغل/تخدم؟ literaly means "in which thing do you work?" or correctly, "what is your job?"


----------

