# Difference between üdvözöljük and üdvözlöm



## cisarro

Hi again!

I'm trying to distinguish the difference between üdvözl*öm* and üdvözöl*jük*, but I can't understand the use of suffixes -öm and -jük (¿possessive suffixes?) in this case.

Thank you


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## cisarro

I'm a little bit confused but this is my attemp:

*Üdvöz: * is a noun (welcome).
*Üdvözöl: * the suffix -öl is added to the noun to form a verb (to welcome).

*Üdvözlöm:* the suffix -öm indicates the _first-person singular_, so in this case *I am welcoming to somebody*, right?
*Üdvözöljük:* the suffix -jük indicates the _first-person plural_, so in this case *we're welcoming to somebody*, right?


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## Olivier0

(Üdvöz has stopped being used as a noun in the Middle Ages but this is not the point.) These are forms of "welcome YOU", with a polite you which in Hungarian is a 3rd person like "welcome him", this is why they are the "definite" forms, that is, those used with an object with a definite article or a 3rd person (or -ik or a few other cases too...):
küldök (indefinite object) "I send" / küldöm (definite object) "I send it",
küldünk "we send" / küldjük "we send it".

Now it is the same with üdvözöl, which has a verbal final that loses a vowel (üdvözl-) before a vowel:
üdvözlöm "I welcome you (polite)/him", üdvözöljük "we welcome you (polite)/him".
And in a familiar context, other forms are used since the object is now the real (familiar) 2nd person and not 3rd:
üdvözöllek "I welcome you (familiar)", üdvözlünk "we welcome you (familiar)",
with the -lek meaning not only subject "I" but also object "you", like szeretlek "I love you".


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## cisarro

Thanks for the answer Olivier0


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## cisarro

Just one more doubt. I'm not in my house and I want to say, "You're welcome any time at my home". Should I use those forms of "welcome you" or need I another word?, e.g., "Üdvözöllek mindig az házamban". I think szíbesen isn't an option here, right?


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## Zsanna

cisarro said:


> Just one more doubt.


You are right about that. 
The verb *üdvözöl* is firstly an equivalent of *to greet/salute (somebody)*. 
E.g. _Amikor találkoztunk, elfordította a fejét, nem is üdvözölt_. (=When we met, he turned his head away, he didn't even greet me.)



cisarro said:


> I'm not in my house and I want to say, "You're welcome any time at my home". Should I use those forms of "welcome you" or need I another word?, e.g., "Üdvözöllek mindig az házamban". I think szíbvesen isn't an option here, right?


From your example it is obvious that it is not about greeting anybody anymore. So another form is used, using the expression that you may be thinking about:
Szívesen látlak bármikor nálam/az otthonomban. (... or Te mindig szívesen látott vendég vagy. or Hozzám bármikor jöhetsz. - but if you wanted to know the difference between these, it would be better to ask in a new thread!)


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## cisarro

Thank you Zsanna, your answer is clear for me


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## Ateesh6800

cisarro said:


> *Üdvöz: * is a noun (welcome).



No. 

*üdv* is a noun
*üdv + (ö) + z + (ö) + l* is the verb 'to greet sy'

Technically, *üdvöz* is a verb formed from the noun. In reality, it is not used. *Üdvözöl* is a verb formed in two steps. *[NOTE: See Entry No 10 for a more accurate etymology.]*

*A.*


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## cisarro

Ateesh6800 said:


> No.
> 
> *üdv* is a noun
> *üdv + (ö) + z + (ö) + l* is the verb 'to greet sy'
> 
> Technically, *üdvöz* is a verb formed from the noun. In reality, it is not used. *Üdvözöl* is a verb formed in two steps.
> 
> *A.*



Interesting! I assumed *üdvöz* as a noun because the suffix *öl* in *üdvözöl*. So what's the difference between üdvöz and üdvözöl? There is a song called "Üdvöz légyen Géza fia" from the hungarian rock opera "István, a király".


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## Ateesh6800

cisarro said:


> Interesting! I assumed *üdvöz* as a noun because the suffix *öl* in *üdvözöl*. So what's the difference between üdvöz and üdvözöl? There is a song called "Üdvöz légyen Géza fia" from the hungarian rock opera "István, a király".



Here's a case when I learn as much by answering as you do by asking. 

My etymological dictionary tells me that in fact *"üdvöz"* is a noun. No wonder I did not know that -- it has been out of use since the 13th century. 

Two verbs have been formed from this noun: *üdvöz + ül* = _"to be saved, to be redeemed, to achieve salvation (by Jesus)"_ in the religious sense, and *üdvöz + (ö) + l* = _"to greet sy"_.

Interestingly, what I assumed to be the root word *"üdv"* (_salvation, redemption_) is in fact a noun created by _back-formation_ from *üdvözül => üdv* or *üdvözség/üdvösség => üdvös => üdv.
*This happened during the _Nyelvújítás_ period, when Hungary's intelligentsia was involved in reforming the language in an effort to modernise and enrich it. So üdv is not the root noun but a new noun created by conscious back-formation from üdvözül.

Back-formation is when the _ending_ of the word is _mistaken for a suffix_, and a _new word_ is created by _removing the ending that looks like a suffix_.
Example: *beggar* is English is a noun (coming from French *begart*, originally a member of the *Beghards*, lay brothers of mendicants in the Low Countries, from M.Du. *beggaert*); *to beg* was created by back-formation because *beggar* was thought to mean "someone who begs" as if it were *begger* (!).

So *beggar* was first and the came *to beg*, and not the other way around.
Similarly, *üdvözül* was first and then came *üdv*, and not the other way around.

*Üdvöz légy = üdvözlégy* is the Hungarian version of *"ave Maria"*.
*Üdvöz légyen Géza fia* = "Greetings be said to the son of Géza" or "ave, son of Géza".

*Légyen* is simply third person singular instead of *légy* (second person singular). In modern speach, it is usually *legyen*.

Thanks for asking! 

*A.*


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## spatulaza

I copied and pasted both your words in Translator on the web and translated from Hungarian to English and got: "welcome to welcome"  So, if you just want to say "welcome", use the second (ending in juk}  If you want to say welcome to someone, like "welcome John" use the first (udvozlom John).  (I was on the web playing bridge against Hungarians, and one wrote a message: üdvözl*öm liona; i.e. "welcome to Liona")*


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## Zsanna

Hello Spatulaza and welcome to our forum,

I don't quite understand what "welcome to welcome" means, even less what Hungarian words lead to that translation... 
Nevertheless, the problem with "üdvözlöm" is that it can be used as it is given in your example (*if* you use the formal way of addressing a person) or in a description addressing a 3rd person, like in: Kérlek add át, hogy üdvözlöm Janit is. - Please pass Jani my greetings, too. (Word by word: Please pass it over that I greet Jani, too.)

The reason being that (like in German or in Italian) the formal way is expressed by the conjugation of verbs in the 3rd form(s).


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## spatulaza

Zsanna said:


> Hello Spatulaza and welcome to our forum,
> 
> I don't quite understand what "welcome to welcome" means, even less what Hungarian words lead to that translation...
> Nevertheless, the problem with "üdvözlöm" is that it can be used as it is given in your example (*if* you use the formal way of addressing a person) or in a description addressing a 3rd person, like in: Kérlek add át, hogy üdvözlöm Janit is. - Please pass Jani my greetings, too. (Word by word: Please pass it over that I greet Jani, too.)
> 
> The reason being that (like in German or in Italian) the formal way is expressed by the conjugation of verbs in the 3rd form(s).


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## spatulaza

Zsanna--thanks.  I returned to the web's Full Text Translator,entered the two words separately, and received the following translations:  üdvözöljük= "welcome to"; üdvözlöm= "You're welcome"


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## gorilla

spatulaza said:


> Zsanna--thanks.  I returned to the web's Full Text Translator,entered the two words separately, and received the following translations:  üdvözöljük= "welcome to"; üdvözlöm= "You're welcome"



Machine translation is bad for Hungarian. Your result is also wrong.
Thanks for wanting to help but the question has been answered already by people who actually speak the language.


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## franknagy

cisarro said:


> I'm a little bit confused but this is my attemp:
> 
> 
> 
> *Üdvözlöm:* the suffix -öm indicates the _first-person singular_, so in this case *I am welcoming to somebody*, right?
> *Üdvözöljük:* the suffix -jük indicates the _first-person plural_, so in this case *we're welcoming to somebody*, right?


 
ÉN+ Üdvözlöm + ÖNT .
 MI + Üdvözöljük + ÖNT.

ÉN+ Üdvözöllek+TÉGED.

 Üdvözöllek dicső lovag. Szőrösebb vagy, mint a lovad.


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## Zsanna

It is true that Google (or any other) translations are usually poor (between Hungarian and English/French/Italian...) and it's better to be aware of it but in the case of "üdvözöljük" "welcome" or "welcome to..." it is a good try. 
Though the context can be important as well as knowing the word by word translaton: _we_ wish _you_ welcome or _we_ greet you/_we_ are greeting _you_... where "you" is in the formal addressing form. (Which is not stressed like my italics could suggest. I use them here just to highlight the differences between Eng. and Hu.)

"Üdvözlöm" is a more difficult matter because 
a) as there is no conjugated form in English (let alone a conjugation corresponding to the tu/vous, du/Sie, tu/Lei -type of formal and informal addressing of people) of "welcome", it can be important to know that the Hungarian indicates either a formal addressing of a second person (= you) or aims at a 3rd person (= he/she) and

b) as the verb "üdvözöl (valakit)" means firstly "_to *greet* (somebody)"_ (= there is no separate verb for "to wish welcome to somebody" in Hungarian) context is needed to know how to render it properly in a given situation (/context).

Although the original question has already been answered, this aspect may not have been explained clearly. (Even though you could expect it from the title of the thread!)

P.S. Frank, this is the time to provide an English translation for your examples! (... aand for the joke - if you can!)


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## franknagy

I greet you honorable knight. Your soul is darker than the night.


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## Zsanna

It rhymes but it's not funny anymore...


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## Encolpius

egy hivatásos műfordító biztosan szebben el tudna bánni egy ilyen rímmel...  persze csak idő kérdése az egész


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