# -land, -dom, -tum, -reich, etc.



## Villeggiatura

Please help list all the traditional Germanic affixes that can be attached to names of ethnic groups to denote their territories (like England), titles of rulers to denote their domains (like kingdom), and other kinds of stems to denote geopolitical entities (like Österreich).

Which ones are interchangeable in certain cases? Like _Kaiser__reich_ and _Kaiser__tum_?

Are there examples of _-tum_ in German suffixed to the name of a group to denote their territory?
I don't know whether _Christentum_ has the territorial sense _Christendom_ has.


----------



## Riverplatense

I think _-tum_ does not usually appear in geographical names. It's rather used to mark ideologies or cultural attitudes. The only example I can think of where there's a geographical connotation is _Bistum_ ‹diocesis›, but neither I'm sure about its etymology nor it is a «classical» geographical term.

Apart from those mentioned there are also _-mark_ (_Dänemark, Steiermark, Finnmark_), _-gau_ (_Tennengau, Pinzgau_, _Lungau_), -_ien_ (_Italien, Belgien, Abessinien_). There are also a lot of endings for towns, like _-heim_, _-furt_ (and also -_ach_, which, however, is not really «traditional», but ← Old Slavic -_ахъ_).


----------



## Riverplatense

By the way, I wouldn't really call them affixes, since _Reich_, _Land_, _Gau _etc. can also be used as free morphemes. _-tum_ derives from Old German _tuom _‹power, dignity›, _Mark ← _Middle High German _marc _‹border, border area, region›, _Gau ← _M. H. G. _gou_, _göu _‹land(scape), region›, cf. Got. _gawi_, Dutch _gouw ← _Germ. *_gaawja _‹land near the water›.



Villeggiatura said:


> I don't know whether _Christentum_ has the territorial sense _Christendom_ has.



I don't think _Christentum_ can be used in order to express a geographical concept.


----------



## berndf

Riverplatense said:


> and also -_ach_, which, however, is not really «traditional», but ← Old Slavic -_ахъ_


The suffix _-ach_ usually means_ mountain creek_ (_eine Ache_) or it is a of Celtic origin (from the Latinized suffix _-acum_). Do you know any German place name ending in_ -ach_ that is of Slavic origin? I am not aware of any.


----------



## berndf

Villeggiatura said:


> Which ones are interchangeable in certain cases? Like _Kaiserreich_ and _Kaisertum_?
> 
> Are there examples of _-tum_ in German suffixed to the name of a group to denote their territory?


I agree with Riverplatensee. The suffix _-tum_ cannot refer to territory. _Kaiserreich _and _Kaisertum _are not interchangeable. The _Kaiserreich _is the territory in which the emperor reigns and _Kaisertum _is the position/power of emperor.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings


Riverplatense said:


> Apart from those mentioned there are also _-mark_ (_Dänemark, Steiermark, Finnmark_), _-gau_ (_Tennengau, Pinzgau_, _Lungau_), -_ien_ (_Italien, Belgien, Abessinien_). There are also a lot of endings for towns, like _-heim_, _-furt_


Not to mention innumerable towns and villages in _-ingen._
Σ


----------



## Villeggiatura

wikipedia has entries like _Kaisertum Österreich / Zarentum / Herzogtum / Fürstentum_ as the German equivalents of _Empire of Austria / Tsardom / Duchy / Principality_, what are the proper terms to denote the territories of these polities?


----------



## bearded

Riverplatense said:


> Apart from those mentioned there are also _...._ -_ien_ (_Italien, Belgien, Abessinien_).


Perhaps, also the ending -ei should be mentioned: Türkei, Slowakei, Mongolei...


----------



## Riverplatense

berndf said:


> Do you know any German place name ending in_ -ach_ that is of Slavic origin? I am not aware of any.



There are quite a lot of them in Southern Austria, such as _Villach, Leisach_ (1050: _Liubisach_)_, Amlach, Tristach _(cf. _tṛst_ ‹reed(s)›)_, Kramsach, Steinach, Friesach_ ... I'm not completely sure about _Steinach _and _Kramsach_, though.



bearded man said:


> Perhaps, also the ending -ei should be mentioned: Türkei, Slowakei, Mongolei...



Oh yes, that's another frequent ending I forgot to mention.


----------



## berndf

Riverplatense said:


> I'm not completely sure about _Steinach _and _Kramsach_, though.


Ja, hier halte ich slawischen Ursprung für von vorne herein ausgeschlossen. Beide Orte befinden sich westlich der weitesten slawischen Ausbreitung.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings again


Riverplatense said:


> There are quite a lot of them in Southern Austria, such as _Villach, Leisach_ (1050: _Liubisach_)_, Amlach, Tristach _(cf. _tṛst_ ‹reed(s)›)_, Kramsach, Steinach, Friesach_


And not a few in Switzerland: _Reinach_, _Dornach_, _Grenzach_ (actually that is actually Swabia, but appropriately enough right on the Swiss border).
Σ


----------



## berndf

Scholiast said:


> And not a few in Switzerland: _Reinach_, _Dornach_, _Grenzach_ (actually that is actually Swabia, but appropriately enough right on the Swiss border).


No, those cannot be of Slavic origin.


----------



## Riverplatense

berndf said:


> Ja, hier halte ich slawischen Ursprung für von vorne herein ausgeschlossen. Beide Orte befinden sich westlich der weitesten slawischen Ausbreitung.



So there seems to be a second root for this ending, maybe exactly related to _Ach(e)_, cf. also _Achenheim _etc.


----------



## Riverplatense

We also see that _Reinach_, _Dornach_, _Grenzach _as well as _Steinach _show obvious Germanic word bases, whereas the other quoted examples can rather be brought together with Slavic roots.


----------



## Scholiast

Sorry, berndf


berndf said:


> No, those cannot be of Slavic origin.


That's what I meant!
Σ


----------



## berndf

Riverplatense said:


> So there seems to be a second root for this ending, maybe exactly related to _Ach(e)_, cf. also _Achenheim _etc.


Second? So far we had already three.


Riverplatense said:


> -_ach_, which, however, is not really «traditional», but ← Old Slavic -_ахъ_





berndf said:


> The suffix _-ach_ usually means_ mountain creek_ (_eine Ache_) or it is a of Celtic origin (from the Latinized suffix _-acum_).


_Kramsach _seems to be unrelated to all.


----------



## Riverplatense

Oh yes, I didn't express myself well. 

Maybe _Kramsach _cannot be divided in _Krams-ach_, but in _Kram-sach_.


----------



## berndf

Riverplatense said:


> Oh yes, I didn't express myself well.
> 
> Maybe _Kramsach _cannot be divided in _Krams-ach_, but in _Kram-sach_.


It seems to be clear that  _Krams-_ comes from _Kranzn_, a local expression for juniper. For _-ach_ I find conflicting explanations. It could mean _junipers by the creek_ but it is not certain.


----------



## curius

Perhaps -berg/burgh (scots 'bru'). Although I believe it just stands for a fort.


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

How about some of these...
_
-folk_ as in Suffolk, Norfolk, Freefolk

_-sex_ as in Essex, Wessex, Middlesex

_-shire_ as in Wiltshire, Berkshire, Waldershare

_-set_ as in Somerset, Dorset, Forncett

_al-_ as in Elsass, Allhallows, Allstars

_Monks-/Monken-_ as in Monken Hadley, Mönchengladbach, Monkswearmouth

-wal- as in Cornwall, Wales, Walh


----------



## Unoverwordinesslogged

berndf said:


> It seems to be clear that  _Krams-_ comes from _Kranzn_, a local expression for juniper. For _-ach_ I find conflicting explanations. It could mean _junipers by the creek_ but it is not certain.



Cram/Cran is normally either crane, crow or crooked but Juniper!

"*Cranage* Chs [_Croeneche_ DB, _Craunach_ c
1215, c 1274, _Craulach_ c 1247, 1271,
_Cranach_ c 1290 Chester]. OE _cra'wena-laecc_
'crows' stream'. Cf. Laecc. _Cra'wenalaecc _
was simplified to _Crawlach_ and _Crawnach_, 
the latter of which prevailed"

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names
EKWALL Fouth Edition


----------



## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Cram/Cran is normally either crane, crow or crooked but Juniper!


Whe are speaking about a different area here.


berndf said:


> _Kranzn_, a *local *expression for juniper.


"Local" means lower Tyrolian Inn valley.


----------



## Stoggler

curius said:


> Perhaps -berg/burgh (scots 'bru').



The Scots word is burgh (as in Edinburgh)


----------



## Stoggler

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> How about some of these...
> 
> _al-_ as in Elsass, Allhallows, Allstars



Do you mean Alsace for the first one?  And Allhallows refers to a church or parish of that name, surely, and just means "all".  In which case, Alsace/Elsass and Allhallows do not have the same meaning and the Al- prefix is not a generic Germanic suffix to denote territory or peoples.  

Allstars?  Is that a real placename?



Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> _Monks-/Monken-_ as in Monken Hadley, Mönchengladbach, Monkswearmouth



The Mönchen- element of Mönchengladbach refers to München (not referring to Munich in Bavaria in this instance) and has nothing to do with the Monk- element in the others quoted, which just refer to...wait for it...monks!

It doesn't take long to look up these etymologies.


----------



## berndf

curius said:


> Perhaps -berg/burgh (scots 'bru'). Although I believe it just stands for a fort.





Stoggler said:


> The Scots word is burgh (as in Edinburgh)


Scots _burgh _corresponds to English _borough_ and German _Burg_. All three originally meant fortified settlement but took different directions: In English end Scots they mean _city_ and in German _castle_.

German _Berg_ is most likely etymologically related but it is not exactly clear how. The meaning of _Berg_ is _mountain _and not _fort _or_ castle_.


----------



## berndf

Stoggler said:


> The Mönchen- element of Mönchengladbach refers to München (not referring to Munich in Bavaria in this instance) *and has nothing to do* with the Monk- element in the others quoted, which just refer to...wait for it...monks!


Yes, it has. Both _Mönchen-_ in _Mönchengladbach_ and _München_ in Bavaria mean _monks_ (to be precise: _of the monks_ and _at the monks, _respectively -- German for monk is _Mönch_, dative plural is_ Mönchen_; in _München_ the OHG _u_ in _munih-_, _i_-mutated to _Münch-_, has been preserved). Both cities were built around monasteries.


----------



## Stoggler

berndf said:


> Yes, it has. Both _Mönchen-_ in _Mönchengladbach_ and _München_ in Bavaria mean _monks_ (to be precise: _of the monks_ and _at the monks, _respectively -- German for monk is _Mönch_, dative plural is_ Mönchen_; in _München_ the OHG _u_ in _munih-_, _i_-mutated to _Münch-,_ has been preserved). Both cities were built around monasteries.



Oh, fiddlesticks!


----------



## berndf

Stoggler said:


> Oh, fiddlesticks!


<...> (misunderstanding clarified)

Anyhow, all these names don't really belong to the list as their origin is Latin and not Germanic.


----------



## curius

curius said:


> Perhaps -berg/burgh (scots 'bru')





Stoggler said:


> The Scots word is burgh (as in Edinburgh)



*spoken scots*


----------



## berndf

curius said:


> *spoken scots*


That is spoken *English* for Scottish names, not Scots. In Scots the _ch/gh_ is pronounced.

The pronunciation [bɹə] is a reduced form of [bəɹə] which is itself a reduced form of the English form _borough _and this pronunciation is also applied to Scottish place names in English.


----------



## luitzen

I would say that -tum indicates a domain. That can be a geographical area as well as people.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings


luitzen said:


> I would say that -tum indicates a domain. That can be a geographical area as well as people.


And quite a few things else: _Reichtum_, _Heiligtum_, _Priestertum_, _Volkstum_ &c. In English too, the germane _-dom_ only occasionally refers _purely_ to a geographical domain. "Christendom" is a concept, not a region, and "boredom" is a long way from either!

Σ


----------

