# Derivatives of trzeć



## Lorenc

I'm having a look at the cluster of verbs derived from the imperfective verb _trzeć_.
I counted 15 verbs formed by a prefix+trzeć, and most of them have meanings related to the actions of rubbing, wiping off, mopping and grating. The problem is that, just looking at the dictionary I can't really tell what nuance of meaning or of usage (if any) may differentiate them. My list of verbs is (these are the perfective forms; the imperfective is formed by prefix+cierać):
0. trzeć
1. dotrzeć
2. przetrzeć
3. otrzeć
4. zatrzeć
5. zetrzeć
6. utrzeć
7. natrzeć
8. wytrzeć
9. obetrzeć
10. rozetrzeć
11. przytrzeć
12. rozpostrzeć
13. potrzeć
14. podetrzeć
15. wetrzeć

Conjugation-wise all these follow the model of trzeć [Present: trę, trzesz; Past: tarłem; Imperative: trzyj].
For example, let us consider for now only the meaning "to grate (cheese, carrot, horseradish]. According to my Oxford-PWN dictionary these verbs can carry this meaning:
utrzeć / ucierać (default choice)
dotrzeć / docierać (to grate some more or to finish grating)
natrzeć / nacierać (no info)
zetrzeć / ścierać (to pulverize (?) )
otrzeć / ocierać (to zest, to grate the skin of oranges or lemons)

Also trzeć apparently can have this meaning. So how should one choose? Which of these sentences is the best/possible answer to _Co robisz?_
0. Trę trochę sera.
1. Ucieram trochę sera.
2. Docieram trochę sera.
3. Nacieram trochę sera.
4. Ścieram trochę sera.
5. Ocieram trochę sera.

Thank you for your advice.


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## vianie

> So how should one choose? Which of these sentences is the best/possible answer to _Co robisz?_
> 
> 0. Trę trochę sera.
> 1. Ucieram trochę sera.
> 2. Docieram trochę sera.
> 3. *Nacieram trochę sera.*
> 4. Ścieram trochę sera.
> 5. Ocieram trochę sera.


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## marco_2

Well, if someone asked me *Co robisz? *I would answer: *Chcę *or *Muszę natrzeć */ *zetrzeć trochę *sera or just  *Trę ser.  *


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## linguos

I agree with marco, I'd also say *"Trę ser"*. "Nacieram trochę sera" sounds odd to me.


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## majlo

This is actually quite interesting. I would go for marco's choice too, excluding "natrzeć", though, as it implies addiotional meaning, namely a large amount.

dotrzeć / docierać (to grate some more or to finish grating)
*It also means 'to reach' or to 'get' (to a destination point)*
natrzeć / nacierać (no info)
*This, in turn, means 'to charge' or 'rush at' as in "The troops started charging...
Or, as I mentioned above, to grate a lot of something.*
zetrzeć / ścierać (to pulverize (?) )
*Yep, that would be pulverize. As in "zetrzeć kogoś w proch" -> to 'pulverize somebody completely'*
otrzeć / ocierać (to zest, to grate the skin of oranges or lemons)
*To me, it means 'to scrape' (e.g. an elbow) or 'to scratch' e.g. car part*

All the derivatives you have listed also have their own meanings. Maybe somebody would like to explain them in detail.


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## Lorenc

Thanks everybody for the quick answers! Forget about the "trochę" if it sounds odd, it's an unnecessary addition. I'm well aware almost all of these verbs have several meaning, but I would like to cover just a meaning at a time 
Interesting to know _natrzeć/nacierać_ indicates a large amount.
I'm a bit surprised that _zetrzeć/ścierać_ is one of the preferred options... And how about _utrzeć_? Maybe not cheese but carrots (if it makes any difference at all...)


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## Ben Jamin

So how should one choose? Which of these sentences is the best/possible answer to _Co robisz?_

0. Trę trochę sera.
1. Ucieram trochę sera.
2. Docieram trochę sera. Docierać means in this context: 'to come close to finish grating the cheese'. Does not fit the situation. In other contexts it means: to arrive (travelling, especially if the travel is difficult), or to work in an engine (car engine).
3. *Nacieram trochę sera. *Nacierać (imperfective) means either  'to rub in' or 'attack'. The perfective can be perhaps used in a sentence 'natarłem dużo sera' (I made a big job grating a lot of cheese'.
4. Ścieram trochę sera.
5. Ocieram trochę sera. Ocierać means: to wipe (cautiously, for example with a handkerchief) or to to grate something accidentally against something (otarł drzwi samochodu o słup). 
Do not ask why it is so. It is just usage, no underlaying logic.


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## vianie

> I'd also say *"Trę ser"*. "Nacieram trochę sera" sounds odd to me.


 
OK. I just thought that when I wanna emphasise the continousness of this act, it' be more suitable.


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## Ben Jamin

0. trzeć: to rub, grate, scrub, file, subject to friction
1. dotrzeć: to finish the above actions, to arrive, to "work in" a new car engine
2. przetrzeć: to wipe, to wipe clean a window or spectacles, 
3. otrzeć: to scrub against something
4. zatrzeć: to wipe out (all traces), to damage a car engine due to lack of oil 
5. zetrzeć: to wipe out
6. utrzeć: to grate
7. natrzeć: to rub with something, to rub in (all over)
8. wytrzeć: to wipe, to dry with a cloth
9. obetrzeć: 'to wipe something' or 'to grate/scrub against something'
10. rozetrzeć: to pulverize or to smear over a surface
11. przytrzeć: grate or scrub something a little (damage)
12. rozpostrzeć: to spread
13. potrzeć: grate or scrub something a little (no damage)
14. podetrzeć: to wipe one's behind after defecation
15. wetrzeć: to rub in

NOTE: 
Verbs 1 to 15 are perfective. There are also imperfective verbs derived from them (like rozcierać, nacierać, and so on). The meaning of the perfective and the derived imperfective may differ too.

Imperfective 'trzeć' without a prefix never means 'to wipe'. To express this there are specialized imperfective verbs: ścierać, wycierać.


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## linguos

Anyway, I don't see the point in adding "trochę" to an answer to the question "Co robisz?". We're not being asked about how much cheese is being grated but what is our current activity.


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## marco_2

Ben Jamin said:


> 0. trzeć: to rub, grate, scrub, file, subject to friction
> 1. dotrzeć: to finish the above actions, to arrive, to "work in" a new car engine
> 2. przetrzeć: to wipe, to wipe clean a window or spectacles,
> 3. otrzeć: to scrub against something
> 4. zatrzeć: to wipe out (all traces), to damage a car engine due to lack of oil
> 5. zetrzeć: to wipe out
> 6. utrzeć: to grate
> 7. natrzeć: to rub with something, to rub in (all over)
> 8. wytrzeć: to wipe, to dry with a cloth
> 9. obetrzeć: 'to wipe something' or 'to grate/scrub against something'
> 10. rozetrzeć: to pulverize or to smear over a surface
> 11. przytrzeć: grate or scrub something a little (damage)
> 12. rozpostrzeć: to spread
> 13. potrzeć: grate or scrub something a little (no damage)
> 14. podetrzeć: to wipe one's behind after defecation
> 15. wetrzeć: to rub in
> 
> NOTE:
> Verbs 1 to 15 are perfective. There are also imperfective verbs derived from them (like rozcierać, nacierać, and so on). The meaning of the perfective and the derived imperfective may differ too.
> 
> Imperfective 'trzeć' without a prefix never means 'to wipe'. To express this there are specialized imperfective verbs: ścierać, wycierać.


 
There are so many collocations with these verbs that you should translate each of them separately, e.g. with *utrzeć *we can say *utrzeć żółtka z cukrem *(to crush yolks and sugar into a soft mass by hitting repeatedly with a spoon or another object), *utrzeć komuś nos *(primarily: to wipe a (child's) nose /nowadays *wytrzeć*/, now we say _utrzeć komuś nosa _with the meaning _to put sb in his place, to cut sb's comb_) and so on and so forth.


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## Ben Jamin

marco_2 said:


> There are so many collocations with these verbs that you should translate each of them separately, e.g. with *utrzeć *we can say *utrzeć żółtka z cukrem *(to crush yolks and sugar into a soft mass by hitting repeatedly with a spoon or another object), *utrzeć komuś nos *(primarily: to wipe a (child's) nose /nowadays *wytrzeć*/, now we say _utrzeć komuś nosa _with the meaning _to put sb in his place, to cut sb's comb_) and so on and so forth.



*utrzeć żółtka z cukrem * is a phraseological construction (you take the words literally for what they mean), while _utrzeć komuś nosa _ is an idiom (the meaning is metaphorical). I do not understand what you mean by "collocations".


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## Lorenc

marco_2 said:


> There are so many collocations with these verbs that you should translate each of them separately, e.g. with *utrzeć *we can say *utrzeć żółtka z cukrem *(to crush yolks and sugar into a soft mass by hitting repeatedly with a spoon or another object)


Can you also use _trzeć_ with this meaning? If so, is there a difference between _trę żółtka z cukrem_ and _ucieram żółtka z cukrem_?

And then, which verb is more appropriate to say "wipe (away) your tears"? _otrzyj łzy_? _przetrzyj łzy_? _zetrzyj łzy_?


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## Ben Jamin

Lorenc said:


> Can you also use _trzeć_ with this meaning? If so, is there a difference between _trę żółtka z cukrem_ and _ucieram żółtka z cukrem_?
> 
> And then, which verb is more appropriate to say "wipe (away) your tears"? _otrzyj łzy_? _przetrzyj łzy_? _zetrzyj łzy_?


_trę żółtka z cukrem_  not used 
_ucieram żółtka z cukrem_? normal use

"wipe (away) your tears":
_wytrzyj łzy - most used_
_otrzyj łzy_?  - can be used, rather bookish/poetic
_przetrzyj łzy_? - not used (but you can say _przetrzyj okulary, szybę, etc, an object covered with moisture, not the moisture itself)_
_zetrzyj łzy_? - yes, but usually with an addition (zetrzyj łzy z twarzy, ubrania, etc)


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## Gdynianus

12. rozpostrzeć ( spread, expand)
As far as I know "rozpostrzeć" is not a derivate of "trzeć".

It is an old word. In Old Polish it sounded  "postrzeć".
It is two words put together: po + strzeć 
It has cognates in other indo-european languages:
"po" is related to latin "pro", "strzeć" is related to latin verb "sterno, strevi, stratum".


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## lampak

Lorenc said:


> And then, which verb is more appropriate to say "wipe (away) your tears"? _otrzyj łzy_? _przetrzyj łzy_? _zetrzyj łzy_?


_ *Wytrzyj*_ is the most widely used of these verbs so IMHO it's the best choice. 
In normal speech_* o*_*trzyj *isn't used very often, even less in a command. Maybe in poetry. Usually it's used in the third person _Jan otarł łzy._ In fact, _łzy_ is the most frequent collocation for this verb. You may also _otrzeć *się o*__ coś_ - rub against something - but it's a different story. 
*Przetrzyj *is usually not used with liquids etc to be wiped, only with the things *on* which they are. _Przetarł okulary, przetarła oczy_. It also suggests the action was brief and not very thorough. 
*Zetrzyj *is used mostly with dirt and must mean wiping something *from* something. The thing you wipe something from is usually clearly specified, sometimes can be omitted if it's obvious. _Zetrzyj plamę z podłogi. Zetrzyj łzy z policzka. Zetrzyj tę plamę!_


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## Ben Jamin

Gdynianus said:


> 12. rozpostrzeć ( spread, expand)
> As far as I know "rozpostrzeć" is not a derivate of "trzeć".
> 
> It is an old word. In Old Polish it sounded  "postrzeć".
> It is two words put together: po + strzeć
> It has cognates in other indo-european languages:
> "po" is related to latin "pro", "strzeć" is related to latin verb "sterno, strevi, stratum".



It is apparently related to 'przestrzeń'.


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