# απολέστηκαν



## panettonea

I have a question about απολέστηκαν, which appears in the following text:

"...που απολέστηκαν στην Εν-δώρ· έγιναν κοπριά για τη γη...."

The best I can tell, it's a form of the verb απολλύω.  Unfortunately, απολλύω is not listed in any Greek dictionary that I've consulted.  Why not?  Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Tassos

Maybe you didn't search hard enough. 
Look at this.


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## sotos

It' s the passive voice, απολλύομαι. The officially correct is απωλέσθησαν.


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## Perseas

The verb is ἀ_πολλύω or_ ἀπόλλυμι (active voice)/_ἀπόλλυμαι _(middle & passive voice). It's an ancient verb and maybe this is why you didn't find it in any modern Greek dictionary. Ηowever, some forms of it like "απώλεσα", "απολέστηκαν", "απολεσθέντα" are used in the modern speech.
You can also consult this Greek-English dictionary: Lidell & Scott.


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## panettonea

Tassos said:


> Maybe you didn't search hard enough.



I looked in 5.  Shouldn't that have been enough?  



> Look at this.



Ευχαριστώ, Τάσσο.  Or should that be Τάσσε?  I know that a lot of -ος nouns don't follow the more formal -ε rule, like Πέτρος.


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## panettonea

sotos said:


> It' s the passive voice, απολλύομαι. The officially correct is απωλέσθησαν.



Thanks, sotos.  Why do some of the forms have απο- and some απω-?


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> The verb is ἀ_πολλύω or_ ἀπόλλυμι (active voice)/_ἀπόλλυμαι _(middle & passive voice). It's an ancient verb and maybe this is why you didn't find it in any modern Greek dictionary.



That would explain it.  



> Ηowever, some forms of it like "απώλεσα", "απολέστηκαν", "απολεσθέντα" are used in the modern speech.



I see.



> You can also consult this Greek-English dictionary: Lidell & Scott.



Thanks, Perseas.


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## sotos

panettonea said:


> Thanks, sotos.  Why do some of the forms have απο- and some απω-?


The v. is composite, from απο + όλλυμι / ολλύω. In past tenses to initial o- becomes ω- (in ancient and katharevousa, the so called αύξησις), thus, απο + ω- > απω- (e.g. απώλεσα, etc). However, in demotike they don't always observe this rule and the o- remains o- in many cases. Total chaos. 
(I was wrong before with απολλύομαι as passive v.  I carelessly copied it from a stupid web-site. Απολύομαι is another v.)
See this site: http://www.logosconjugator.org/mc/mog.php?id=143962&ul=EN


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## Tassos

panettonea said:


> Ευχαριστώ, Τάσσο.  Or should that be Τάσσε?  I  know that a lot of -ος nouns don't follow the more formal -ε rule, like  Πέτρος.



No, all the regular nouns that can take the vocative follow this  rule (σκύλε, γάτε, ήλιε, φίλε etc). The ones that do not follow it are  the names (Νίκο!, Πέτρο!, Γιώργο! etc). You might still hear someone  using the -ε for the diminutives (Μήτσε!, Σώτε!) but it's rare. Btw it's  Τάσο with one σ.


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## panettonea

sotos said:


> The v. is composite, from απο + όλλυμι / ολλύω. In past tenses to initial o- becomes ω- (in ancient and katharevousa, the so called αύξησις), thus, απο + ω- > απω- (e.g. απώλεσα, etc). However, in demotike they don't always observe this rule and the o- remains o- in many cases. Total chaos.



I see.  Does your average Greek today understand much ancient Greek, or is the difference in meaning/structure too great?



> (I was wrong before with απολλύομαι as passive v.  I carelessly copied it from a stupid web-site. Απολύομαι is another v.)
> See this site: http://www.logosconjugator.org/mc/mog.php?id=143962&ul=EN



Thanks.


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## panettonea

Tassos said:


> No, all the regular nouns that can take the vocative follow this  rule (σκύλε, γάτε, ήλιε, φίλε etc).



The book I have gives 4 main exceptions:

a) Names of people (both first and last) stressed on the penultimate.
b) Certain very common two-syllable words, such as γέρος.
c) Diminutives in -άκος, such as φιλαράκος.   
d) Feminine nouns, such as νήσος.  Actually, it says that for these feminine nouns, the vocative is rare, but is more likely to end in -ο.



> Btw it's  Τάσο with one σ.



OK, thanks.  Perhaps by removing one "σ," you're being pro*vocative*.


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## Tassos

panettonea said:


> The book I have gives 4 main exceptions:
> 
> a) Names of people (both first and last) stressed on the penultimate.
> b) Certain very common two-syllable words, such as γέρος.
> c) Diminutives in -άκος, such as φιλαράκος.
> d) Feminine nouns, such as νήσος.  Actually, it says that for these feminine nouns, the vocative is rare, but is more likely to end in -ο.



I'll try to be brief (as we are basically off-topic)

(a) - (c) yes
(b) yeah, but which are these words? (nothing pops to my mind right now) (and note: it's "γέρο!" but "παλιόγερε!")
(d) Here, I don't agree. If I were to write a poem, I'd go with "νήσε!", "οδέ!".


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## sotos

panettonea said:


> Does your average Greek today understand much ancient Greek, or is the difference in meaning/structure too great?



It depents on one's education (or age). I can read and understand, with some effort, classical texts although I'm not a philologist. (So, it's the age factor). I don't understand Homer without dictionary.


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## velisarius

My grown-up children were educated in Greek state schools and, not being particularly interested in Ancient Greek, they understand even less than I do. I think they are typical of their generation.


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## panettonea

Tassos said:


> (b) yeah, but which are these words? (nothing pops to my mind right now) (and note: it's "γέρο!" but "παλιόγερε!")



Here are a couple more it mentioned: διάκος, δράκος. 



> (d) Here, I don't agree. If I were to write a poem, I'd go with "νήσε!", "οδέ!".



It didn't actually say that -ε would be wrong, just that -ο would be more likely.  However, I guess not everyone will agree on this.  



sotos said:


> It  depents on one's education (or age). I can read and understand, with  some effort, classical texts although I'm not a philologist. (So, it's  the age factor). I don't understand Homer without dictionary.



OK. 



velisarius said:


> My grown-up children were educated in Greek state schools and, not being particularly interested in Ancient Greek, they understand even less than I do. I think they are typical of their generation.



So the more ancient you are, the more likely you are to understand ancient Greek, huh?


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## velisarius

"So the more ancient you are, the more likely you are to understand ancient Greek, huh? "

Not necessarily; my husband, who is pretty ancient, is also_ σκράπας _at Ancient Greek.


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## ireney

Moderator's note: One topic per thread please!


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## Αγγελος

απόλλυμι (=I lose, I destroy) belongs to the ancient _athematic _conjugation, the present and imperfect active forms of which have gone completely out of use, even in καθαρεύουσα. Some passive presents are still in use, such as εκτίθεμαι (προτίθεμαι, διατίθεμαι...) or εξ(αν)ίσταμαι, but not απόλλυμαι (=I am lost, I perish). The aorist forms, however, whose morphology was no different from those of the thematic conjugation, are still in occasional use. In the indicative they are απώλεσα (active) and απωλέσθην (passive), with an ω in accordance with a rule of ancient Greek grammar which has been abolished in modern Greek (thus, "I rushed", spelt ὥρμησα in ancient Greek and in καθαρεύουσα, is nowadays spelt όρμησα, in agreement with the present ορμώ and the noun ορμή); in the subjunctive they are απολέσω and απολεσθώ, respectively, always with an o; and the passive aorist participle τα απολεσθέντα is still used for the "lost and found" section in train stations and such places. The indicative and subjunctive forms are typical of journalese -- no one would use them in everyday talk. The cognate noun απώλεια (=loss) is in fairly common use, though.
The usual word for "lose" is of course χάνω, which can also refer to a game and whose passive χάνομαι can also mean "lose one's way" or even 'perish'.


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## panettonea

Αγγελος said:


> απόλλυμι (=I lose, I destroy) belongs to the ancient _athematic _conjugation, the present and imperfect active forms of which have gone completely out of use, even in καθαρεύουσα....



Thanks for all the helpful info, Αγγελε.


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## giosx

It depents on the age of education to be precise...
Until  '80's ancient form of language was teached at schools, but later on it was "modernally" abandoned for not the kids to suffer... at studying.
So they left mixo-learners of new greek lang... most of people below 40 years old (unless the study on purpose) don't understand ancient nor modern polytonic pre80's greek texts of literature... A huge crime has been made on language, by cutting the roots to the catharevousa (and koinh) among ancient....
Only people over 50's can understand in great extend catharevousa or politonic and ancient texts..... Poor little neo-(modernized) language-less Greeks.
Am a Greek too. But with the good old grammar, so i cane read-write and absorb the old  literature..


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