# I should have known?



## badgrammar

How best to translate this sentence, as in "I should have known that if X happens, Y would happen."

I'm sure Ich sollte das wissen is probably incorrect...

Viel danken


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## Henryk

badgrammar said:
			
		

> How best to translate this sentence, as in "I should have known that if X happens, Y would happen."
> 
> I'm sure Ich sollte das wissen is probably incorrect...
> 
> Viel danken


 
_Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn X "passiert", Y "geschieht"._

*My example:*

I should have known that if you do that there'll be some problems.

Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn du das tust, Probleme auftauchen.


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## badgrammar

Danke dir, Henryk, mein Deutsche ist nicht sehr gut!


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## Whodunit

Henryk said:
			
		

> _Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn X "passiert", Y "geschieht"._
> 
> *My example:*
> 
> I should have known that if you do that there'll be some problems.
> 
> Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn du das tust, Probleme auftauchen.


 
I think "_*Ich hätte wissen müssen*_" is more common.


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## elroy

Henryk said:
			
		

> _Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn X "passiert", Y "geschieht"._
> 
> *My example:*
> 
> I should have known that if you do did that there'll'd be some problems.
> 
> Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass, wenn du das tust, Probleme auftauchen.


 
Small correction: 

English usually uses the past tense after "I should have known," even if the statement applies to the present.


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## badgrammar

So, for example, does this work: 

"Ich hatte wissen sollen, dass, wenn ich sage das, du machst das nicht."

"I should have known that, if I said that, you would not do it."

Oder: "Ich hatte wissen mussen...."?


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## elroy

badgrammar said:
			
		

> So, for example, does this work:
> 
> "Ich hatte wissen sollen, dass, wenn ich sage das, du machst das nicht."
> 
> "I should have known that, if I said that, you would not do it."
> 
> Oder: "Ich hatte wissen mussen...."?


 
Ich h*ä*tte wissen sollen, dass, wenn ich *das sage*, du *es* *nicht machst*. 

So besides the word order problems, the minor translation problem ("that" = "das"; "it" = "es"), and the crucial umlaut, you got it. 

_(I am personally not in favor of "müssen" instead of "sollen.")_


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## badgrammar

elroy said:
			
		

> Ich h*ä*tte wissen sollen, dass, wenn ich *das sage*, du *nicht gehst*.
> 
> So besides the word order problems and the crucial umlaut, you got it.



Schei$e!  Du weiss mein Deutsche ganz schlecte ist!  The crucial umlaut, I had no idea (just for this tense then?)!  And I get mixed up about the noun-verb order all the time.  
By the way, I edited my first post three times...  Sorry for the confusion.


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## elroy

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Schei$e! Du wei*ßt, dass* mein Deutsche ganz schlec*h*te ist! The crucial umlaut, I had no idea (just for this tense then?)! And I get mixed up about the noun-verb order all the time.
> By the way, I edited my first post three times... Sorry for the confusion.


 
I have updated my reply.  

Yes, the umlaut is crucial for this particular tense. "Hatte" does exist, but it means something else.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> _(I am personally not in favor of "müssen" instead of "sollen.")_


 
And what makes you think so?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> And what makes you think so?


 
Because I don't see anything wrong with "sollen."


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## iFeXx

elroy said:
			
		

> Because I don't see anything wrong with "sollen."


 
Right, "sollen" is as acceptable as "müssen".

The only difference between these expressions in this case(!!!) consists of the following:

- "Ich hätte wissen sollen" - I usually should have known something + Personal opinion: It would have been better if I knew it

- "Ich hätte wissen müssen" - Obligatorily, I should have known something + Personal opinion: It was my duty to know it

That's the single difference  Generally, it doesn't matter which expression you use in spoken language.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Because I don't see anything wrong with "sollen."


 
Nevertheless, it is far more common (at least where I live) to say "Ach, das *hätte ich* doch *wissen müssen*, (dass du am Montag nicht kannst)!" I personally still prefer "müssen" over "sollen".


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## badgrammar

Thanks for the information, everybody. 

I think I will go with "sollen" over "mussen", for the pure and simple reason that to my poor brain, it seems natural to make the connection between should - sollen and must - mussen.  

In this sense, must seems is more imperative, as if it were an obligation (as IFexx said), as in "I must go to the bank today (or I'm in trouble)...", but should seems more of a suggestion, something that probably you ought to do, an opinion, as in "I should go to the bank today (it would be a good idea to go)...".

I don't know if that holds true in German, though...


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## Whodunit

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information, everybody.
> 
> I think I will go with "sollen" over "mussen", for the pure and simple reason that to my poor brain, it seems natural to make the connection between should - sollen and must - mussen.
> 
> In this sense, must seems is more imperative, as if it were an obligation (as IFexx said), as in "I must go to the bank today (or I'm in trouble)...", but should seems more of a suggestion, something that probably you ought to do, an opinion, as in "I should go to the bank today (it would be a good idea to go)...".
> 
> I don't know if that holds true in German, though...


 
No, it doesn't, I'm afraid.

I personally would not prefer "sollen" in this context. It sounds like "I was supposed to know", and this is a construction I would not use - neither in speech nor in writing.

It is very common (as I said, at least here where I live) to say "Ach, das hätte ich doch wissen müssen!", whereas "sollen" sounds a bit weird. I'm not sure if that holds for other regions, too.

When you said "suggestion", you proved yourself that "sollen" is not very good in your sentence.


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## thungsten

'Ich hätte wissen müssen, dass' is IMHO the right german idiom and that holds--as far as i know--for all regions of germany.
'Ich hätte wissen sollen' sounds weird for your purpose.

Other possibilities are:
'Mir hätte klar sein müssen/können/sollen, dass' - so if the 'müssen'-alternative is to strong you can choose können (could) or sollen (should).

But do not change 'Ich hätte wissen müssen' to 'Ich hätte wissen sollen'. 'Ich hätte wissen sollen' sounds a bit as if someone else demanded/expected it.
(You wouldn't say 'to lift the daisies', would you?)


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## badgrammar

Thank you all for your advice on the subject, this is really such a helpful forum!


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## Whodunit

thungsten said:
			
		

> 'Ich hätte wissen müssen, dass' is IMHO the right german idiom and that holds--as far as i know--for all regions of germany.
> 'Ich hätte wissen sollen' sounds weird for your purpose.
> 
> Other possibilities are:
> 'Mir hätte klar sein müssen/können/sollen, dass' - so if the 'müssen'-alternative is to strong you can choose können (could) or sollen (should).
> 
> But do not change 'Ich hätte wissen müssen' to 'Ich hätte wissen sollen'. 'Ich hätte wissen sollen' sounds a bit as if someone else demanded/expected it.
> (You wouldn't say 'to lift the daisies', would you?)


 
Thanks for backing me up. 

"sollen" does not only sound weird and changes the meaning, but it makes no sense, as I explained before.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Thanks for backing me up.
> 
> "sollen" does not only sound weird and changes the meaning, but it makes no sense, as I explained before.


Das finde ich aber übertrieben.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Das finde ich aber übertrieben.


 
Look at Thungsten's explanation:



> But do not change 'Ich hätte wissen müssen' to 'Ich hätte wissen sollen'. 'Ich hätte wissen sollen' sounds a bit as if someone else demanded/expected it.


 
So, what does "I should have known" mean for you? Defeinitely not that someone _else_ demanded you to know, right?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> So, what does "I should have known" mean for you? Defeinitely not that someone _else_ demanded you to know, right?


"It makes no sense" is a general statement that makes it sound as though it could never be used.

I understand "I should have known" to mean that there was a reason for me to have known, but for some reason I didn't.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> "It makes no sense" is a general statement that makes it sound as though it could never be used.


 
I can't think of any situation in which "ich hätte es wissen sollen" fits better than "ich hätte es wissen müssen". Words that do not make sense can be used, though. 



> I understand "I should have known" to mean that there was a reason for me to have known, but for some reason I didn't.


 
So no one demanded you have to do something, that's why I would definitely prefer "Ich hätte es wissen müssen". The sentence with "sollen" sounds like "I was supposed to know it". Of course it can be used, but it doesn't fit very well in this situation, does it?


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Words that do not make sense can be used, though.


Sure, they can be used, but they'd be incorrect.  I thought it was obvious I meant "can be used *correctly*."


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I think "_*Ich hätte wissen müssen*_" is more common.


It is more common, to my total surprise.

I would have picked: "Ich hätte wissen sollen, dass…"  

I'm perfectly comfortable with your suggestion, and checking I find it is more common, by about 4 to 1. But only one other person here has agreed with you that "sollen" is wrong.

However, when I checked for your phrase:

"hätte ich doch wissen sollen" (1 hit)

"hätte ich doch wissen müssen" (25 hits)

My guess, at this moment, is that it's not a matter of right and wrong but a matter of what is more common, more idiomatic—and also a stylisitic preference.

In addition, iFeXx suggested that "sollen" is LESS emphatic than "müssen", and when you (you personally, who) add "doch", this is also making your statement more emphatic.



			
				iFeXx said:
			
		

> Right, "sollen" is as acceptable as "müssen".
> 
> The only difference between these expressions in this case(!!!) consists of the following:
> 
> - "Ich hätte wissen sollen" - I usually should have known something + Personal opinion: It would have been better if I knew it
> 
> - "Ich hätte wissen müssen" - Obligatorily, I should have known something + Personal opinion: It was my duty to know it
> 
> That's the single difference  Generally, it doesn't matter which expression you use in spoken language.


 
To me that backs up what you say but also backs up Elroy's point of of view and explains why the "natives" do not fully agree.

Gaer


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> I understand "I should have known" to mean that there was a reason for me to have known, but for some reason I didn't.


I can't think of any other meaning. I agree with you entirely.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> But only one other person here has agreed with you that "sollen" is wrong.


 
"wrong" and "makes no sense" is different. Both phrases are right (by grammar etc.), but to me the sentence with "sollen" makes no sense. I explained why.



> "hätte ich doch wissen sollen" (1 hit)
> 
> "hätte ich doch wissen müssen" (25 hits)


 
If you use the German settings, it is even more convincing: 1:69 .



> My guess, at this moment, is that it's not a matter of right and wrong but a matter of what is more common, more idiomatic—and also a stylisitic preference.


 
Yes, did I say that it is _wrong_? 



> In addition, iFeXx suggested that "sollen" is LESS emphatic than "müssen", and when you (you personally, who) add "doch", this is also making your statement more emphatic.


 
I've chosen a phrase that is very common. You use it after an accident or something that you should/could have known before:

"Ah, dass dieser Wagen nicht verkehrssicher ist, hätte ich doch wissen/sehen müssen!"

I could leave out "doch" and it still sounds fine, but it would lose its emphasis.


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## elroy

Who, by "wrong" we mean "wrong *in this instance*."  I think we are all aware that the grammatical structure is correct.


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Who, by "wrong" we mean "wrong *in this instance*." I think we are all aware that the grammatical structure is correct.


 
Then I'd like to emphasize that it is _uncommon_ *in this instance*. Whatever we might mean by "wrong", is debatable.


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