# pisać and podpisać (aspects)



## drei_lengua

Cześć,

Is there a grammar rule explaining the reason for the difference in first person singular present for these two verbs?  

For example,

Ja piszę is to Ja podpisuję  
Ja piszę is not to Ja podpiszę  

"pod" means under and "pisać" means to write to "podpisać" is to sign which is writing underneath text.  This makes a lot of sense.  So wouldn't you think that the correct form would be "Ja podpiszę" where podpiszę = pod + piszę?

I am trying to understand the grammar.

Dzękuję bardzo.

Drei


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## papillon

Drei_Lengua, since all the Polish-speaking forer@s seem to be deep asleep, I'll venture my guess based solely on the "slavic feel" I have for this question.

If Russian is any indication, pisać would be an imperfective verb, while adding the _pod-_ makes it perfective. So _Ja_ _podpiszę_ is actually OK, it simply means _I will sign_. Present tense _Ja podpisuję_ is derived not from the verb "podpisać", but rather from the imperfective verb "podpisywać". Hence the difference.

Now - wait for the people who actually know Polish


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## Jana337

drei_lengua said:


> Ja piszę is to Ja podpisuję
> Ja piszę is not to Ja podpiszę



In fact, you got it a bit wrong. "Ja podpisuję" is not a form of "podpisać".

pisać - ja piszę
podpisać -ja podpiszę (perfective)
podpisywać - ja podpisuję (imperfective)

Our grammar is weird but not that weird. 

Wait for natives in case I messed it up (but I don't think I did). 
EDIT: Two guesses by Slavic natives are equivalent to a reply by a competent Polish forer@. 

Jana


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## drei_lengua

papillon said:


> Drei_Lengua, since all the Polish-speaking forer@s seem to be deep asleep, I'll venture my guess based solely on the "slavic feel" I have for this question.
> 
> If Russian is any indication, pisać would be an imperfective verb, while adding the _pod-_ makes it perfective. So _Ja_ _podpiszę_ is actually OK, it simply means _I will sign_. Present tense _Ja podpisuję_ is derived not from the verb "podpisać", but rather from the imperfective verb "podpisywać". Hence the difference.
> 
> Now - wait for the people who actually know Polish


 
Thanks papillon,
What is the difference between imperfective and perfective for the Slavic languages?

Drei


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## Jana337

drei_lengua said:


> Thanks papillon,
> What is the difference between imperfective and perfective for the Slavic languages?
> 
> Drei


Voilà. But I wrote it for my mother tongue.

Jana


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## drei_lengua

Jana337 said:


> Voilà. But I wrote it for my mother tongue.
> 
> Jana


 
Dzękuję, ja czytam jutro.  Teraz idę spać.  Dobra noc.

p.s. Now check that out.  Pretty cool huh?  I think I spelled everything correctly.  Jutro nazywam się vier_lengua.

Drei


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## papillon

I believe the main difference comes in the past tense. Past tense of an imperfective verb could mean either a repetitive action in the past, or an action that may still continue. 
In Russian, the verb brat' (_to take_) is imperfective, so in the past tense we have
Ja bral vziatki -- I was taking bribes -- repetitive action.
On the otehr hand, the verb vziat' (also _to take_) is perfective. So if you say 
Ja vzial vziatku -- I took a bribe -- it's a one time action in the past, it's done.

The difference also extends to the present/future situation.
An imperfective verb behaves normally in the present tense, but at least in Russian you need an auxiliary verb to form future tense.
Ja beru -- I take, I am taking  -- present tense.
Ja budu brat' -- I will be taking <possibly many times>-- future tense.

On the other hand, a perfective verb cannot be in present tense, the "normal" conjugation is actually in the future tense.
Ja voz'mu -- I will take <once>.

EDIT: Jana, I had a strange feeling that I may not be the first person to put all this in writing.


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## Jana337

drei_lengua said:


> Dzękuję, ja czytam jutro.  Teraz idę spać.  Dobra noc.
> 
> p.s. Now check that out.  Pretty cool huh?  I think I spelled everything correctly.  Jutro nazywam się vier_lengua.
> 
> Drei


Not bad at all. A missing object (to) in the first sentence, and the verb "to read" should be in the perfective aspect (przeczytam) but you cannot know since you haven't read it yet. And the last sentence cries out for the future tense: Jutro będę się nazywać vier_lengua.

Dobra noc! 

Jana


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## Jana337

papillon said:


> I believe the main difference comes in the past tense. Past tense of an imperfective verb could mean either a repetitive action in the past, or an action that may still continue.
> In Russian, the verb brat' (_to take_) is imperfective, so in the past tense we have
> Ja bral vziatki -- I was taking bribes -- repetitive action.
> On the otehr hand, the verb vziat' (also _to take_) is perfective. So if you say
> Ja vzial vziatku -- I took a bribe -- it's a one time action in the past, it's done.
> 
> The difference also extends to the present/future situation.
> An imperfective verb behaves normally in the present tense, but at least in Russian you need an auxiliary verb to form future tense.
> Ja beru -- I take, I am taking  -- present tense.
> Ja budu brat' -- I will be taking <possibly many times>-- future tense.
> 
> On the other hand, a perfective verb cannot be in present tense, the "normal" conjugation is actually in teh future.
> Ja voz'mu -- I will take <once>.
> 
> EDIT: Jana, I had a strange feeling that I may not be the first person to put all this in writing.


I must acknowledge the primacy of this source which, luckily, is written with Polish examples. So I would encourage 3,5-lengua to read it first before delving in our babble.

Funny, you have picked "to take", of all verbs!  One that does not even look similar. 

Jana


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## papillon

Jana337 said:


> So I would encourage 3,5-lengua to read it first before delving in our babble.


​ 


Jana337 said:


> Funny, you have picked "to take", of all verbs!  One that does not even look similar.


Wait, similar to what? Ah, you mean to each other! That just means that it's late and all the good perfective/imperfective verb pairs have receded into the depth of my brain. This is all that's left.


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## mikesz14

pisać - write
podpisać -subscrit, sign, underwrite (e.g. wenn i write my name and forename on the document, then I can say "(Ja) Podpisuję dokument" )

podpisać - once
podpisywać - many times

Wenn du Deutsch kannst, dann diese Erklärung soll dir sicherlich ausreichen 

pisać - schreiben
podpisać -unterschreiben/unterzeichnen/
podpisywać- vielmal unterschreiben oder machen das immer, wenn es nötig ist 

Pozdrowienia


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## drei_lengua

mikesz14 said:


> pisać - write
> podpisać -subscrit, sign, underwrite (e.g. wenn i write my name and forename on the document, then I can say "(Ja) Podpisuję dokument" )
> 
> podpisać - once
> podpisywać - many times
> 
> Wenn du Deutsch kannst, dann diese Erklärung soll dir sicherlich ausreichen
> 
> pisać - schreiben
> podpisać -unterschreiben/unterzeichnen/
> podpisywać- vielmal unterschreiben oder machen das immer, wenn es nötig ist
> 
> Pozdrowienia


 
Vielen Dank für diese Beispiele.  Das verstehe ich.  Ja razumiem.  

Drei


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## majlo

Dobra noc* is spelled Dobranoc


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## Marga H

Dobry wieczór!
Just a small comment(maybe a bit out of the main topic)
Grammar isn't sometimes easy to understand,but we have in Polish also the verb *pisywać *(dated,means repeated action)which conjugates like 
*podpisywać *(ja pisuję,ty pisujesz..)It is not often used nowadays.
Instead of "pisuję dużo listów" you can say" piszę dużo listów" or"piszę często listy" and the meaning is the same.
Several verbs have 3 forms of infinitive:
jadać (ja jadam)- jeść - zjeść
grywać ( ja grywam)- grać - zagrać
czytywać(ja czytuję)-czytać - przeczytać
pisywać(ja pisuję) -pisać - napisać
The first column is "in danger of extinction" but still comprehensible and very useful for clarifing to Polish students present simple tense in English grammar.The second is imperfective aspect,the third is perfective aspect.
Pozdrowienia.


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## drei_lengua

Marga H said:


> Dobry wieczór!
> Just a small comment(maybe a bit out of the main topic)
> Grammar isn't sometimes easy to understand,but we have in Polish also the verb *pisywać *(dated,means repeated action)which conjugates like
> *podpisywać *(ja pisuję,ty pisujesz..)It is not often used nowadays.
> Instead of "pisuję dużo listów" you can say" piszę dużo listów" or"piszę często listy" and the meaning is the same.
> Several verbs have 3 forms of infinitive:
> jadać (ja jadam)- jeść - zjeść
> grywać ( ja grywam)- grać - zagrać
> czytywać(ja czytuję)-czytać - przeczytać
> pisywać(ja pisuję) -pisać - napisać
> The first column is "in danger of extinction" but still comprehensible and very useful for clarifing to Polish students present simple tense in English grammar.The second is imperfective aspect,the third is perfective aspect.
> Pozdrowienia.


 
Cześć,
The second column is the imperfective, the third is the perfective.  What is the first column called?  

Dziękuję,
Drei


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## Marga H

drei_lengua said:


> Cześć,
> The second column is the imperfective, the third is the perfective. What is the first column called?
> 
> Dziękuję,
> Drei


Please read your thread about "biec" , post number 6 by Seana.
The first column  is called "czasowniki wielokrotne".I'm not sure about the English term, but it means repeated action , like Present Simple tense in English.Not every verb in Polish has this form.But if this form does exist,
it usually has the same pattern of conjugation like derivate verbs with different prefixes.
For example :
*pisać *( ja piszę ) imperfective -* napisać ( *ja napiszę - future , ja napisałem/am - past ) perfective main verb
*pisywać* (ja pisuję ) - repeated action
derivate verbs:
*podpisywać *( ja podpisuję ) - *podpisać *(ja podpiszę - future , ja podpisałem/am - past ) perfective
*przepisywać *(ja przepisuję ) -imperfective -* przepisać (*ja przepiszę - future , ja przepisałem/am - past ) perfective
And so on.With  some other verbs you have the similar situation.
Pozdrowienia.


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## Hal1fax

I have never fully understood the difference between them...I understand one is a completed action and one isn't but I think I just need some examples to enhance my comprehension.


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## Piotr_WRF

This might not be 100% accurate but when you take the past tense it is:

I was writing to you - pisałem do ciebie (imperfective)
I wrote to you - napisałem do ciebie (perfective)

So generalizing a bit you can say that when you use the continuous form in English you would use the imperfective aspect in Polish.


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## Jana337

Hal1fax said:


> I have never fully understood the difference between them...I understand one is a completed action and one isn't but I think I just need some examples to enhance my comprehension.


I merged your thread with an old one. 

You might want to have a look at this long thread in Other Languages. I believe you can read all posts about Slavic languages because the principle is identical.


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## Thomas1

Piotr_WRF said:


> This might not be 100% accurate but when you take the past tense it is:
> 
> I was writing to you - pisałem do ciebie (imperfective)
> I wrote to you - napisałem do ciebie (perfective)
> 
> So generalizing a bit you can say that when you use the continuous form in English you would use the imperfective aspect in Polish.


An exception to the rule:
_He grew up in London._
_Dorastał w Londynie._


Some food for thought: 

Aspects across Slavic languages 
Polish: iść, pójść, et cetera 
Polish: is there a pattern for the prefixes for perfective? 

Tom


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## ryba

papillon said:


> I'll venture my guess based solely on the "slavic feel" I have for this question.


Your slavic feel didn't fail you.



Marga H said:


> Dobry wieczór!
> Just a small comment (maybe a bit out of the main topic)
> Grammar isn't sometimes easy to understand,but we have in Polish also the verb *pisywać *(dated,means repeated action)which conjugates like
> *podpisywać *(ja pisuję,ty pisujesz..)



Good point.

_ pisywać_ = pisać od czasu do czasu (from time to time),

just like _chadzać_ = chodzić od czasu do czasu,

and _bywać_ = być od czasu do czasu. Stąd wziął się rzeczownik _bywalec_ (This is where the subjective _bywalec_ derived from). A _bywalec _a person who visits some place more or less regularly or has been there a couple of times and knows the place well. Stały bywalec (jakiegoś miejsca) is a person who visits someone's place, a bar, a theater, etc. on a regular basis, for example a _"stały bywalec forum Word Reference"_.

Maybe I've just gone off topic but I found Marga's remark interesting and worth a comment.

Pozdrawiam / Cheers.


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