# noun + adjective



## jmt356

MSA: do adjectives always go after the noun? 

I believe adjectives always go after the noun. For example: 
كيلو واحد (one kilo)
سيارة واحدة (one car)
صبي جميل (beautiful boy)

Two questions: 


Are the above translations correct?
Are there cases in which adjectives come before the noun?


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## ayed

Yes, they are correct
_*A *_beautiful boy
No, adjectives could come and function after the nouns as predicate adjective if I am not mistaken:
الطعام لذيذ The food is delicious
الولد جميل The boy is beautiful


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## Arabic_Police_999

In Arabic language adjective are put after a noun to give the English meaning = a beautiful car. however, you CAN put adjective before a noun, but it means a different thing, so the examples above you wrote do not correspond
It is  complicated and I really advise you to not try to use it until you are super advanced

Explanation
when an adjective precedes a noun, it means that this noun is the only one to have SUCH A quality, it's the thing that truly deserved to be called like this

1_ ancient poetry_ ومـن لـئـيـمٍ عـبـدٍ يـخالفـكم *** ليست له دعوةٌ ولا شرفُ as you see in the first part the  adjective لئيم precede the noun عبد, 
if the adjective were after the noun it will mean that this slave have the quality of miscreant( A miscreant slave that disobey). but the adjective precede the noun so the exact meaning is( a slave that disobey, how can that be, a slave should obey, it's the only one that has such a quality,a miscreant slave)

2_ When you go and and see many beautiful cars, but you see a really beautiful car, and you want to tell your friend that this car is the car, its the most beautiful, its the one that because of its beauty all others are nothing you will say= aljameeltu al'escaladu (escalade) 

Im not sure if it's still used in some dialects, but it's extremely rare, the example above is taken from my own life, in my  dialect= elHelwah el'escalad


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## Eternal student

Elative (superlative) adjectives and (low) ordinal numbers routinely come before the noun (as does the adjective 2aaxir 'last', maybe because it looks a bit like an elative). But because they form an 2iDaafa construction with the following noun you might want to say that these are nominalized adjectives.

Examples: 2awwalu marratin, 2aaxiru marratin, 2akbaru baytin etc.


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## jmt356

I think superlatives and low ordinal numbers can also come after the nouns, can’t they?
البيت الأكبر
المرة الأولى
المرة الآخرة


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## ZeeshanParvez

I would like to clear the point when a superlative like
اجمل
افضل 

are used with a following definite noun which is in the genitive (i.e it has kasrah) then the superlative is not considered an adjective but is considered a noun which designates the thing possessing the highest quality from its kind.

For example

افضل القوم

اعلم الفلاسغة

Here the superlatives are acting as substantives and not adjectives and mean the greatest member of the nation (whether a female or male may it one or many) and in the second example, the most learned philosopher form among the philosophers. Hence, they are not adjectives. If you would like more information about this refer to A Grammar of the Arabic Language by W.Wright page 218 Third edition.


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## ZeeshanParvez

I am not 100% sure about your question but I believe that there are times when the adjective can come first. Consider the following 

'_ثلاثة كتب_ 
ثلاثة قروء

In these examples three comes first and means three books and three menstruation respectively. 
I think a poster pointed this out too


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## fdb

It is easy to get pedantic about this, but I would maintain that in _thalāthatu kutubin_ the first word is not an adjective, but a noun in the construct state (muḍāf), literally “a threesome of books”.


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## Xence

In fact, there are a very few cases in Classical Arabic (Quran, Poetry...) where adjectives come before nouns. But they are considered as exceptions by classical grammarians. They are not meant to be followed.


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## jmt356

Can anyone comment as to whether my suggestions in post #5 are correct? 
البيت الأكبر
 المرة الأولى
 المرة الآخرة

Or does the superlative need to precede the noun: 
الاكبر بيت 
الأول مرة 
الآخر مرة


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## fdb

The first three are correct. The last three are wrong (they should not have an article before the elative.)


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## Arabic_Police_999

البيت الأكبر is correct= the biggest house
المرة الأولى is correct= the fist time
المرة الآخرة it's wrong it's المرة الأخيرة

putting a superlative before a noun it give a meaning like that
الاكبر بيت= the biggest is a house
الأول مرة= wrong, the first is a time, (it doesnt make sense)
الآخر مرة= wrong, the last is a time,


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## fdb

الآخرة and الأخيرة are both correct, but with slightly different meanings.


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## Arabic_Police_999

The word الآخرة is associated more with the meaning afterlife, most people today will understand it like the afterlife, but both are correct you are.



jmt356 said:


> Can anyone comment as to whether my suggestions in post #5 are correct?
> البيت الأكبر
> المرة الأولى
> المرة الآخرة
> 
> Or does the superlative need to precede the noun? If so, should the superlative take the article ال, as in:
> 
> الاكبر بيت
> الأول مرة
> الآخر مرة



Note that if you want to convey the meaning *the last time* it is = المرة الأخيرة  and if want to convey the meaning *another time* it is = المرة الأخرى
If used the المرة الآخرة it could mean both of them, its obscure, maybe in a context, but as a lone standing sentence  the meaning is unclear.


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## jmt356

fdb said:


> The first three are correct. The last three are wrong (they should not have an article before the elative.)


 
My last three suggestions sound very awkward to me when I remove the article before the superlative:
اكبر بيت
أول مرة
آخر مرة

Without the article, don’t these mean “a biggest house”; “a first time”; “a last time,” respectively?

For example: اريد ان اشتري اكبر بيت: Does this not mean, “I want to buy a biggest house.”
To get a true superlative, shouldn’t it be: اريد ان اشتري الاكبر بيت (or otherwise, اريد ان اشتري البيت الاكبر )?


ZeeshanParvez said:


> I am not 100% sure about your question but I believe that there are times when the adjective can come first. Consider the following
> 
> 'ثلاثة كتب
> ثلاثة قروء
> 
> In these examples three comes first and means three books and three menstruation respectively.
> I think a poster pointed this out too


 
Perhaps it is just my ear, but I feel like I have heard numbers come _after_ nouns. For example, for “one kilo,” can’t I say:
كيلو واحد
Or do I have to say:
واحد كيلو

Also, why does آخر become feminine when placed after مرة:
المرة الآخرى-
Yet it remains masculine when placed before it (آخر مرة)?


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## dkarjala

It seems you haven't yet trained yourself or been trained in 1) the elative (comparative/superlative) and 2) number rules. Both of these topics merit their own threads, IMO. Everything you have been told so far is, in fact, correct.


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## Arabic_Police_999

*hopefully this will help you*

أكبرُ بيتٍ= notice the إضافة construction (Akbaru bait*in*), it is not a complete sentence, 
if you want to use it as a lone standing sentence you will say: الأكبرُ بيتٌ( Al Akbaru bait*un= the biggest is a house*)
of you want to use it as an adjective, either you use َبيتًا أكبر( a biggest house) or the البيتَ الأكبرَ( the biggest house)
so, “I want to buy *a biggest house*.”(adjective) = َأريدُ أن أشتري بيتًا أكبر
and اريد ان اشتري *أكبر بيت* means( superlative)= I want to buy *the biggest house*

أولُ مرةٍ is incomplete sentence(إضافة), a complete sentence is المرةُ الأولى=  look at it from Arabic respective: example: 
Was that the first or the last time? the first time (a complete sentence so in Arabic it will be said) المرة الأولى, *this is the first time I do*....*هذه أولُ مرةٍ أفعلُ* 
here you can say *هذه المرةُ الأولى التي أفعلُ* but it will be a sentence so it should be connected to the other: *this is the first time that I do......هذه المرةُ الأولى التي أفعلُ*

آخرُ مرةٍ incomplete sentence(مضاف و مضاف إليه, الإضافة), a complete sentence المرةُ الأخيرةُ
كيلو واحد it's wrong it should be كيلًا واحد/كيلو متر واحد, but كيلا/كيلو متر is one so no need to add واحدا , example(go 1 kilo meter north, 2 km east then 3 km west) إذهب كيلًا شمالًا و كيلين شرقًا و ثلاثة أكيال غربًا=
if you want كيلو then = إذهب كيلو متر شمالا وكيلو مترين شرقًا و ثلاثة كيلو مترات غربا  (colloquial arabic has different way)
tell me if you still have problem


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## Bakr

> إذهب كيلًا شمالًا و كيلين شرقًا و ثلاثة أكيال غربًا


عفوا، بأي لهجة عربية يقال هذا التعبير؟
شكرا​


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## Arabic_Police_999

I read it in the newspaper and hear it from the TV sometimes but, it's كيل even though it may look that it came from kilometer, but it's not, it's *a word that exist in* *classical Arabic*, but It is used in classical Arabic in sometimes to mean kilometer


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## fdb

كيل _kaylun_ is indeed classical Arabic, but it is a dry measure, not a measure of distance. كيلو is a borrowing from French (the metric system was invented in France in 1795), formed with the Greek root kilo- “one thousand”.


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## Bakr

ظننت أنها بلهجة عربية ما، لأنني كنت أظن أن الكيل يستعمل للوزن وليس للمسافة، أما اختصارات الكيلوغرام والكيلومتر، فربما لكل لهجة اختصاراتها، المغاربة يختصرون الكيلوغرام إلى كيلو، ولا يختصرون الكيلومتر..ـ   ​


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## Arabic_Police_999

hi man, we have to distinguish between stranded Arabic and colloquial Arabic, my previous answer was from standard Arabic respective, but if u want it from my accent we use كيلو to indicate to both kilometer and kilogram


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## Bakr

ربما علي توضيح ما أعنيه، لم أصادف يوما ولا عهد لي بهذا التعبير : إذهب كيلًا شمالًا و كيلين شرقًا و ثلاثة أكيال غربًا 
ولم أقرأه أو أسمعه، أما الكيل بالعربية الفصحى فلا جدال حول وجوده ومعناه، وإن كان هذا التعبير مكتوبا في صحيفة أو قيل في قناة تلفزية فليس دليلا على فصاحته!ـ ​


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## Arabic_Police_999

*إذًا فكلمة كيلومتر هي الأفصح!؟

كما قلت سابقا وفي التعليق الأسبق من السابق
أنها عربية الأصل
و أنها كانت تستخدم للقياس
وأنها اليوم تستخدم لقياس
شيء آخر
فلا أدري ما الأفصح أن نستخدم لفظا أجنبيا مطلقا أم نستخدم كلمة عربية كانت تقاس لشيء لنقيس بها شيء آخر

(أكتب بقوقل (تقع مدينة الهفوف في الزاوية الجنوبية الغربية من واحة الاحساء على بعد ستين كيلاً من العقير
وستجدها مستخدمة بالمعنى الذي قلت عنه *


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## Bakr

لم أتحدث عن فصاحة الكيلو، ولن أتحدث عنه وعنها، أريد أن أعرف هل كيلا من الكيل العربي الفصيح، أم من الكيلو الذي لن أتحدث عن بداهة عدم أصالته؟ وأمر آخر، رأيت أنك قمت بتغيير الجملة التي كانت السبب في تدخلي إلى : إذهب كيلو متر شمالا وكيلو متران شرقًا و ثلاثة كيلو مترات غربا، ما معنى ذلك؟​


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## Arabic_Police_999

كلاهما صحيح 
لكن الأفصح
كيلا
وكما قلت وشرحت وزدت وعدت 
كلمة كيل العربية الأصل من استخداماتها اليوم الدلالة على كيلومتر

أتقصد الاعراب؟ غلطت به, سأصححه
اذهب كيلو مترٍ شمالا و كيلو مترين شرقا و ثلاثة كيلو مترات

أهذا ما تقصد؟


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## Bakr

مثلما شرحتَ وكررتَ وأعدتَ، ولم أعد ولم أشرح ولم أكرر، إن وجدتُ أو وجدتَ بأن كيلا هي من الكيل وليس من الكيلو فلك ذلك​


> وما بها هذي الجملة؟
> 
> "إذهب
> 
> كيلو متر شمالا و كيلو
> متران شرقًا و ثلاثة
> كيلو مترات غرب​


ما معنى ما بها هذه الجملة؟
هذه الجملة ليست هي هذه : إذهب كيلًا شمالًا و كيلين شرقًا و ثلاثة أكيال غربًا
 وهذه هي التي كانت سبب تدخلي وإلا لما كنت سألت أو تدخلت أصلا !ـ​


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## Arabic_Police_999

وما بها هذه الجملة
ذهب ​كيلًا​ شمالًا و ​كيلين​ شرقًا و ثلاثة ​أكيال​ غربًا
كيل تستخدم بعض الأحيان للدلالة على كيلومتر
وما الاعتراض هنا؟​


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## Bakr

لم أعترض على شيء، كنت أسال هل كيلا هي اختصار لـ كيلومتر في لهجة عربية ما، أجبتَ بأنها من كلمة الكيل الفصيحة، ولم أجد دليلا على استعمال الكيل للدلالة على المسافات، بل تستعمل للدلالة على الوزن، ولازال السؤال: هل كيلا من الكيل أم من الكيلومتر؟  ​


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## Arabic_Police_999

كيل من الكيل وتستخدم اليوم باللغة العربية الفصحي
ما أعنيه بالفصيح هو فصيح اليوم لا فصيح الأمس
 as I said before it used to be *used* in *Classical Arabic* for measurement,  but *today *it's used in *Modern standard Arabic(they vary from each other)* to mean kilometer, but not wildly
كيل is not from كيلومتر, even though they seem close but the Arabic meaning shifted today to mean kilometer, 
so the meaning of kilometer is not Arabic, but the word was rather than being left for no use, today it is used to mean the kilometer


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