# receiving stolen property



## seitt

Greetings

I assume that receiving property one knows has been stolen is a criminal offence in your country.

I think some languages refer to it as "the stealing of what has been stolen", but I may be wrong.

Anyway, if you are put on trial for receiving stolen property or, colloquially, “fencing”, what will be the wording of the actual charge brought against you by the public prosecutor? (I.e. what is the name of the crime?)

Best wishes, and many thanks,

Simon


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## geogins

Hey here! 
The act is called *κλεπταποδοχή*, and *κλεπταποδόχος *the person who commites it.


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## seitt

Much obliged - so, even in the colloquial language, you don't ever say, for example, "η κλοπή αυτού που κλέφτηκε / είχε κλεφτεί"?

Apparently the President of Cyprus used the corresponding Eng. expression recently, maybe in connection with Russian mafia activities in Cyprus.


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## geogins

It would be "αποδοχή αυτού που κλέφτηκε/ κλάπηκε / έχει κλεφτεί / έχει κλαπεί", but... no, it's not a common way to say it, unless someone doesn' t know the terms.


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## Perseas

seitt said:


> Much obliged - so, even in the colloquial language, you don't ever say, for example, "η κλοπή αυτού που κλέφτηκε / είχε κλεφτεί"?


"αυτό που έχει κλαπεί/αυτό που κλάπηκε" = "κλεμμένο" or "κλοπιμαίο" (adjectives)
_
Η αποδοχή των κλεμμένων/κλοπιμαίων_ is more colloquial (mostly the first one).
_Η κλεπταποδοχή_ is the legal term, as has *geogins* already said.


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## seitt

Much obliged, all clear now.


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## velisarius

seitt said:


> Much obliged - so, even in the colloquial language, you don't ever say, for example, "η κλοπή αυτού που κλέφτηκε / είχε κλεφτεί"?
> 
> Apparently the President of Cyprus used the corresponding Eng. expression recently, maybe in connection with Russian mafia activities in Cyprus.



The Greek phrase  "Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" means "he who steals from the thief". A phrase of Lenin's, translated into English as "The stealing of the stolen" was used by Russian Prime Minister Medvedev in connection with Cyprus banks.


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## seitt

Many thanks - mystery solved!

Btw, could one also say, "Ο κλέψας από τον κλέψαντα"?

I suppose that if you want true Katharevousa it would have to be "Ὁ κλέψας ἀπὸ τοῦ κλέψαντος", but please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Perseas

"Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" is a set phrase that has been remained from katharevousa or the ancient language. One uses it to express that stealing has become a very common practice in everyday life. Ok, you can use it to say that someone stole from the thief, but mostly it functions as a motto/saying: _(almost) everybody steals_. "Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" is also the Greek translation of an old Italian movie!

"Ο κλέψας από τον κλέψαντα": No, grammatically it is wrong, since _από_ governs the genitive case in Ancient Greek.
"Ὁ κλέψας ἀπὸ τοῦ κλέψαντος": I am not sure, but I think it's correct. I think also that it conveys more the meaning of "he who steals from the thief". However, a Modern Greek wouldn't make much of it. In Modern Greek we would say e.g. "Αυτός που έκλεψε τον κλέφτη".


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## seitt

Thank you very much.

I've come up with the following – please let me know if I'm correct:

In Ancient Greek the germane construction is “κλέπτω τι τινός” (I steal something from somebody). So "Ὁ κλέψας τοῦ κλέψαντος" literally means, “He who stole from him who stole.” Which is fine.

In Modern Greek the expression is “κλέβω κάτι από κάποιον”, isn’t it? But does "με έκλεψε" in Modern Greek mean "he stole me" or "he robbed me (= he stole from me)" or both? By "he stole me" one would mean something like "he kidnapped me".

If, as I suspect, it means both, this might make, "Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" easier to understand for someone whose knowledge is limited to Demotic Greek, although the ancient usage of the genitive we see here is now obsolete and has been replaced by από plus accusative. I think some grammarians call it the genitive of separation.

I would always have used "με λήστεψε" for "he robbed me", but perhaps I've been too pedantic or something?


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## Perseas

Hi seitt,



seitt said:


> In Ancient Greek the germane construction is “κλέπτω τι τινός” (I steal something from somebody). So "Ὁ κλέψας τοῦ κλέψαντος" literally means, “He who stole from him who stole.” Which is fine.


Personally, I don't see any structure/syntax in this saying. I 've always understood it as the nominative case being next to the genitive case. That's why I spoke about a motto in my previous post. One could add the dative for emphasis: _ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος τω κλέψαντι._ 



seitt said:


> In Modern Greek the expression is “κλέβω κάτι από κάποιον”, isn’t it? But does "με έκλεψε" in Modern Greek mean "he stole me" or "he robbed me (= he stole from me)" or both? By "he stole me" one would mean something like "he kidnapped me".


 "με έκλεψε" and "έκλεψε κάτι από μένα" convey more or less the same meaning. In some cases "με έκλεψε" can mean even "he kidnapped me"="με απήγαγε".



seitt said:


> If, as I suspect, it means both, this might make, "Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" easier to understand for someone whose knowledge is limited to Demotic Greek, although the ancient usage of the genitive we see here is now obsolete and has been replaced by από plus accusative. I think some grammarians call it the genitive of separation.


"Ο κλέψας του κλέψαντος" is understood as a motto: "everybody steals". Ay least this is my understanding.



seitt said:


> I would always have used "με λήστεψε" for "he robbed me", but perhaps I've been too pedantic or something?


 Yes, and "με έκλεψε" for "he stole something from me"


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## seitt

Much obliged!

As it does seem that the quote was wrongly attributed to the President of Cyprus and should have been attributed to the Prime Minister of Russia (thanks, velisarius!),some may find the following thread interesting as I have pursued it with our Russian experts too.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2606758&p=13145080#post13145080


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## velisarius

Since you're interested in the quote, this is my source of information, from the Daily Telegraph, 25 March: Medvedev channels Lenin. Apparently the real source of the expression was Marx's "expropriation of the expropriators" (from Das Kapital).


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## Perseas

After googling a little I found that the newspaper BHMA republished news from the British "Guardian" on the subject we discuss. According to them  Medvedev made the statement: _«Συνεχίζουν τα κλέβουν αυτά που ήδη ήταν κλεμμένα». _It says also that this was a phrase Lenin used to say in response to allegations that Bolsheviks were thieves. 

So, in Greek it is "κλέβω αυτά που ήδη είναι/ήταν κλεμμένα" or more simply "κλέβω τα κλεμμένα". Of course this has nothing to do with the meaning of "κλεπταποδοχή".


And here is the original source ( "Guardian" ) of 26 March 2013.


*cross-posted with *velisarius*.


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## seitt

Many thanks, most interesting!


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## velisarius

By the way, "κλεπταποδόχοι" is often the adjective applied by Greeks to the Swiss banks that are presumed to receive large deposits from dodgy sources.


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