# Arabic dialects for non-native speakers



## HBZ55

Hi,
I want to know if some of the non-native speakers of MSA in this forum can understand dialects, and if they understand one dialect, can they understand others.
I ask because, with my native language being Tunisian Arabic, I find almost all dialects intelligible to me and I want to know if this transfers to non-native speakers, and if it doesn't, can these dialects become intelligible by spending a couple of days watching movies and listening to music in a specific dialect?


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## clevermizo

Not unless you study the dialects specifically. I found most students who only study MSA are essentially clueless with spoken dialect.

I for one studied Syrian dialect specifically. After studying a dialect closely, I find it easier to other understand other dialects (since many dialects share features that are not shared with fus7a), but not after studying fus7a alone. I don't  know any non-native speakers who can speak or understand a dialect who have not also _studied_ at least one dialect from some region.


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## comtejake

Agreed. I've taken on (outside of class...) Levantine Arabic, mostly material based on the dialects of Damascus region/ash-shaam and Lebanon, and find that I now much better understand dialects. I think the clearest to me still is (educated) Iraqi Arabic, as in the film "Forget Baghdad". But, if nothing else, studying this dialect has helped my ears become used to things like consonant clusters. And the vocabulary doesn't hurt either.

Incidentally, I'd wanted to learn Moroccan Darija for a long time, and have listened to a ton of Moroccan music, watched films, etc. Suffice it to say, last I checked, it was still almost impossible for me to understand! But I haven't lived over there, so I can't honestly say.

I hear Tunisian has idiosyncracies like reversing fuS7a genders in some cases, or something?


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## HBZ55

About Tunisian, I read the Wikipedia page and it said that it doesn't differentiate genders except in rural varieties, which isn't the case. I think someone confused it with Moroccan or Algerian that refers to you(m.s) as intii.
For example, I watched this talk show with the host being Tunisian and the guest Moroccan (or Algerian), the host asked a question, the guest asked him another with intii, the host looked at him and said "tofla 9oddamik t9olli inti"
meaning in a non literal translation "I'm not a girl so you can't tell me inti". He was joking but you get the point.

Ok, more about the topic, what did you study first? Did you study the dialect alone or did you begin with MSA?
If so, did you notice a big difference between the two? As a native speaker, I find the difference to be typically exaggerated, but I want the opinion of someone who had to learn the two varieties.


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## clevermizo

HBZ55 said:


> Ok, more about the topic, what did you study first? Did you study the dialect alone or did you begin with MSA?
> If so, did you notice a big difference between the two? As a native speaker, I find the difference to be typically exaggerated, but I want the opinion of someone who had to learn the two varieties.


The difference may be exaggerated but from the point of view of a non-native speaker they (colloquial vs. fus7a) initially seemed like two totally different languages to me, and that's completely honest. I treated them as such. Only when I learned enough of both colloquial and fus7a did I start to make all the connections between the two and then started to understand them as one "macrolanguage."

From the point of view of a native speaker: yes the differences are exaggerated. But remember that as a native speaker you are exposed to colloquial from birth and fus7a from childhood and they are intertwined in your culture, so it is very easy and accessible to view them as one and the same. Bilingual speakers of a dialect who are raised abroad and haven't had any exposure to fus7a often have just as hard of a time learning fus7a as non-native speakers in my experience, sometimes harder because they expect it to be easy.

I started learning Syrian dialect and then began studying fus7a after a few months and have been studying both concurrently ever since.


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## HBZ55

Thanks for the insight. I've always wondered what non-native speakers think about the diglossia situation in Arabic.
I guess I understand why new learners separate the two varieties, and treat them as two different languages. If I were to learn Arabic and Tunisian, and I would see for example: 
I want to go to the school.
Orido an athhaba ila al-madrasati: MSA
N7ib nimshi lil maktib: Tunisian
I would definitely think they're not the same language.


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## Andrew___

I agree that learners of MSA find dialects really difficult - I am one of them.

I still can't understand Egyptian films.


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## comtejake

I wouldn't so much say they seemed to be two different languages save for Moroccan Daarija. One thing that contributes to that perspective is the difficulty in finding texts about dialects in which the dialectal portions are written in Arabic script and not transliterated. That said, learning Levantine has not been a problem for me in that department because a) I had the knowledge of a year's worth of fus7a when I started this 3amiya and b) One of the sources, which I believe was syrianarabic.org, is great in that it provides shaamiya in Arabic script AND in transliteration. This, I'm now able to turn on a "switch" in my head when I'm writing/reading that dialect. E.g., I know حلوة is "7ilwe" and السنة is "issane", etc. 

To be really sure, I'll sometimes write out tamarbuttas as haas so as to remind me the levantine fem. sing. ending (for the words to which it applies). I just written 3aamiyya! It's such a pleasure to read Iraqi, Moroccan Darija, etc. Maybe I just like an excuse to use letters from other Perso-Arab scripts.


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## elroy

Welcome to the forum, comtejake. 


comtejake said:


> To be really sure, I'll sometimes write out tamarbuttas as haas so as to remind me the levantine fem. sing. ending (for the words to which it applies).


 How is that helpful? 


> I just written 3aamiyya!


 I think you left out a verb there ("love," maybe?). 


> I just like an excuse to use letters from other Perso-Arab scripts.


 I'm also confused by this comment.  What "other Perso-Arab scripts" are you referring to?


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> I'm also confused by this comment.  What "other Perso-Arab scripts" are you referring to?



Maybe they mean that to write sounds like [g, p, v] they enjoy employing letters from Persian?


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## clevermizo

HBZ55 said:


> Thanks for the insight. I've always wondered what non-native speakers think about the diglossia situation in Arabic.
> I guess I understand why new learners separate the two varieties, and treat them as two different languages. If I were to learn Arabic and Tunisian, and I would see for example:
> I want to go to the school.
> Orido an athhaba ila al-madrasati: MSA
> N7ib nimshi lil maktib: Tunisian
> I would definitely think they're not the same language.



Exactly. It takes time to learn that say the roots ح ب ب , ر ي د and م ش ي exist in both but may be used differently, or that while مدرسة or *نذهب would be understood I'm sure, the Tunisian variety prefers مكتب and نمشي which of course are used differently in standard Arabic.  Also the basic underlying grammar is slightly different in both cases. As a learner you have to take time to learn the rules (whether descriptive or prescriptive) for both. If I did not learn that n- means "I" in Tunisian, I would be very confused and assume that people just went around in Tunisia saying "We" all the time instead of "I".


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## comtejake

Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by *comtejake* 

 
 				To be really sure, I'll sometimes write out tamarbuttas as haas so as to remind me the levantine fem. sing. ending (for the words to which it applies).

_How is that helpful? _

I find it helpful because from what I know about Persian, the ha takes on a similar "e" sound at the end of the word. It's just my own little way to distinguish 3aamiyya when written.

  	Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				I just written 3aamiyya! 			 		 	 	 
_I think you left out a verb there ("love," maybe?). 

_Indeed, twas late at night. "I love writing 3aamiyya!"

   	Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				I just like an excuse to use letters from other Perso-Arab scripts. 			 		 	 	 
_I'm also confused by this comment.  What "other Perso-Arab scripts" are you referring to?

_clevermizo is right: the gaaf, pe, etc...The plain fact is that I'm a nerd about the aesthetics from this part of the world! But I don't push my luck when writing transliterations in Arabic...I respect the fact that these other characters are from entirely different languages!


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## HBZ55

Getting back to the topic, I want to ask what's the best sounding dialect for a non-native speaker? Asking the question to native speakers is almost like asking them "what's your dialect?". You don't need to tell me about the ugliest sounding because that might be offensive to some members.


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## tabyyy

Even though I am only a beginner, I personally prefer Levantine dialects, particularly Lebanese. I like the way words and letters are pronounced in this dialect, the sentence structure as well, and just the overall tone of the dialect.


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## Andrew___

Yes I must agree that Lebanese is the nicest sounding dialect to me.


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## comtejake

Evidently I prefer ash-shaamiye to some extent. And I do think it's easiest on the ears. But I can't fairly say that any one dialect is my favorite. My favorites, however, are the above-mentioned, Iraqi, and Moroccan Daarija; they all have distinct features that speak volumes on the regions in which they developed.


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## elroy

HBZ55 said:


> Asking the question to native speakers is almost like asking them "what's your dialect?".


 If that's true, then I'm an exception.  My favorite dialect is the Syrian dialect.


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## azeid

I would like to say something about the Arabic dialects from my point of view

1) I believe that the Egyptian dialect is the most understandable one between Arabs and this is mainly because the Egyptian movies and series which are watched by All Arabs.

2) The Egyptian dialect is the most used one and this is mainly because the population, Egyptians are about 80 Million from about 350 Million Arabs and so Many of arabic ( Lebanese,Syrian,Tunisian,Khaligi,....) singers sing the most of their songs in egyptian dialect.

3) I believe that the most of Arabs can understand Fus7a and this is because of the Holly Quran and i think that the saudi dialect is the most relative one to Fus7a.

4) I am really enjoying listening to Levantine dialect particularly Lebanese for the same reasons that mentioned by Tabby 





> I like the way words and letters are pronounced in this dialect, the sentence structure as well, and just the overall tone of the dialect.


 .

5) The Moroccan and Algerian dialects are very difficult for me, I can't understand the most of their words and i think this is because they are talking relatively faster and also i can hear a french accent in their words.

This is my opinion and sorry if my English is not good, i am working on improving it 

Thanks


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## psxws

azeid said:


> 5) The Moroccan and Algerian dialects are very difficult for me, I can't understand the most of their words and i think this is because they are talking relatively faster and also i can hear a french accent in their words.



Is this claim true? I don't know to what extent Moroccans or Algerians have a French accent. I know there has been pretty extensive borrowing from French (Algerians in particular), but I do know that they have a strong and very particular accent when speaking French; thus I doubt that there would be a corresponding accent from French when speaking Arabic (excluding perhaps the upper classes for whom Arabic is really a second language to French). 
Darija is pretty difficult to understand due to the widespread removal of so many vowels, much more so than most dialects. Personally I like the sound of Levantine/Syrian Arabic, but I haven't been exposed to all varieties (How many here have ever heard Chadian Arabic, for example?)


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## HBZ55

@psxws:
Algerian and Moroccan dialects don't have a French accent, but rather a Berber one.


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## azeid

psxws said:


> I know there has been pretty extensive borrowing from French (Algerians in particular)





> Darija is pretty difficult to understand due to the widespread removal of so many vowels


I do agree with you in these points and may be your claim 





> excluding perhaps the upper classes for whom Arabic is really a second language to French


 is right and Thanks to HBZ55 for his confirmation about the dialect itself.
If any one can add to our discussion about the Algerian and Moroccan dialect i will appreciate that.


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## HBZ55

> Darija is pretty difficult to understand due to the widespread removal of so many vowels


Maybe the loss of vowels affects understanding by people from the Mashriq, but for me, the difficulty I have with understanding Moroccan and west Algerian dialects doesn't have anything to do with that, it has more to do with the overall tone of the speech, the accent if you will. Here's an example: for me, listening to the Moroccan dialect is like listening to a strong Jamaican or Irish (or Scottish) accent. It's not a perfect example since there are some differences in vocabulary and even in grammar, but that doesn't impede understanding since I can understand Lebanese which has a lot more differences with the Tunisian dialect. What actually impedes my understanding is the strong accent they have, like always stressing the last syllable in the word etc.


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## Mahaodeh

HBZ55 said:


> Maybe the loss of vowels affects understanding by people from the Mashriq



They have this tendancy of تسكين الحرف الأول من الكلمة والحرف الأخير من الكلمة أصلا ساكن في كافة اللهجات العامية مما يؤدي إلى التقاء ثلاث سواكن وليس ساكنَيْن فقط 
that is a lot of loss of vowels.


HBZ55 said:


> but that doesn't impede understanding since I can understand Lebanese which has a lot more differences with the Tunisian dialect. What actually impedes my understanding is the strong accent they have, like always stressing the last syllable in the word etc.



I've also tried listening to the Morrocan TV chanels, they do speak very fast, they have the problem of التقاء الساكنين and they have a strong accent; but once I got the hang of it, I understood the overal speach and about 75 to 80% of the vocabulary (I don't know any French or Berber, so I can miss some of the vocabulary).

However, I don't think that comparing your understanding to the Lebanese dialect is fair; Lebanese is much slower hence much easier to understand; plus, with all the Lebanese songs from Fairooz to Nancy Ajram, it's hard not to understand it . How do you understand Saudi or Iraqi?


azeid said:


> I would like to say something about the Arabic dialects from my point of view
> 
> 1) I believe that the Egyptian dialect is the most understandable one between Arabs and this is mainly because the Egyptian movies and series which are watched by All Arabs.
> 
> 2) The Egyptian dialect is the most used one and this is mainly because the population, Egyptians are about 80 Million from about 350 Million Arabs and so Many of arabic ( Lebanese,Syrian,Tunisian,Khaligi,....) singers sing the most of their songs in egyptian dialect.
> 
> 3) I believe that the most of Arabs can understand Fus7a and this is because of the Holly Quran and i think that the saudi dialect is the most relative one to Fus7a.
> 
> 4) I am really enjoying listening to Levantine dialect particularly Lebanese for the same reasons that mentioned by Tabby .
> 
> 5) The Moroccan and Algerian dialects are very difficult for me, I can't understand the most of their words and i think this is because they are talking relatively faster and also i can hear a french accent in their words.
> 
> This is my opinion and sorry if my English is not good, i am working on improving it
> 
> Thanks


Wow, azeid, that's one big can of worms you just opend


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## elroy

Moderator Note: This thread is on the verge of spiraling out of control.  It is closed for the time being and will remain closed until the moderators decide what to do with it.


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