# That red car of Kei (that) I saw yesterday is beautiful.



## Nino83

Hello everyone.

Which is the correct (or the unmarked, neutral) word order of adjectives (and relative clause) in this sentence?

That red car of Kei (that) I saw yesterday is beautiful.
Watashi ga kinō mita Kei no sono akai kuruma wa kirei desu.
私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。

Thank you


----------



## frequency

私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車

Yes, you succeed in connecting the noun phrase + relative clause: 私が昨日見た + 圭のその赤い車. But I humbly suggest you that you don't need その. In most cases if you use the possessive, 圭の, we can omit その.

If you say 圭のその赤い車, it sounds like Kei has some red cars and you're talking about any specific one of them. Yesterday you saw the red car that is likely to be Kei's car, then you can say 私が昨日見た圭の赤い車.

You're missing one word..


----------



## Nino83

Thank you, frequency! 
Yes, using both a demonstrative pronoun and a genitive phrase is heavy and not common in other languages too, but I wanted to be sure which was the order when one needs (unlikely but possible?) to put them into one single sentence. 


frequency said:


> You're missing one word..


Yes, in a hurry I missed the particle は.


----------



## frequency

Ahh..yes, I understand you. You know, "その赤い" conflicts with "圭の" a bit.

If you say 圭のその車, this is okay because you and the hearer know a car earlier mentioned by either or both. Therefore, if we have to choose better ones, 圭のその車 and 圭の赤い車 would be.


----------



## Nino83

Good  
Thanks!


----------



## karlalou

Nino83 said:


> Which is the correct (or the unmarked, neutral) word order of adjectives (and relative clause) in this sentence?
> 
> That red car of Kei (that) I saw yesterday is beautiful.
> Watashi ga kinō mita Kei no sono akai kuruma wa kirei desu.
> 私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。


I think it's その that is easy to come first: 私が昨日見たその圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


----------



## frequency

> 私が昨日見たその圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


No.


----------



## karlalou

I'm sorry, but it's yes.
It's also easily said その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


----------



## frequency

> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


No.


----------



## karlalou

When talking about something you already talked about, その is important to tell the listeners what you are talking about. Better to say it as soon as possible.

Without saying その, the listener would have a hard time figuring out what you are talking about.

Naturally, 'その' easily comes first for anyone's mouth.


----------



## frequency

http://www.weblio.jp/content/その
According to 2,

昨日圭の赤い車を見た。その車は綺麗です。（or でした）
This is the right usage of その, because その needs an earlier mention like this.



> 私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。
> 私が昨日見たその圭の赤い車は綺麗です.
> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


Each doesn't have its earlier mention. Therefore, they're not correct.



> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.


This is horribly wrong and saying 「その私」.

私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です。 works fine because this starts without its earlier mention.


----------



## karlalou

At the point of using その, it's making the situation where the 圭の赤い車 has been already talked about. In addition to that,


Nino83 said:


> That red car of Kei (that) I saw yesterday is beautiful.
> Watashi ga kinō mita Kei no sono akai kuruma wa kirei desu.
> 私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。


since it says 私が昨日見た, "I saw yesterday", it doesn't say they are looking at the car right now that it contradicts if you think this 'That' is pointing out something they are looking at right now. This 'That' clearly pointing out something they've already talked about.


----------



## ktdd

Hi~
Sorry for barging in like this but...
Let's presume both the speaker and the listener know the speaker saw Kei's car(s) yesterday. So it's a shared knowledge. I guess その is legit in this situation, am I right?
Like the OP, I'm just wandering how native speakers would usually arrange these things (a determiner その, an adjective 赤い, a possessive 圭の, and a relative clause 私が昨日見た) in a complex sentence. (Yeah, it's a bit extreme, and I'm not sure I know the right order in Chinese lol, probably 我昨天見過的那輛圭的紅車)
frequency-san seems to say 「その私」 is bad. But I did a quick Google search with "その私が*た" and got a lots of hits, e.g. 「その私が見た教皇は正義だ！」、「その私が演じた被爆者の女性は…」. Now I'm a bit confused...


----------



## Flaminius

Hi, *ktdd*.  Welcome to the forums.

私にはどんな相手でも悪であるか、正義であるかわかる。その私が見た教皇は正義だ！
- a quote from Saint Seiya

Please always source your quote.  It is important for other participants in the discussion to be able to see the quoted portion in context.  In this case, context is vital for understanding the use of _sono_.  Apparently, その modifies 私.  It does not modify 教皇 across the subordinate clause 私が見た.

My browser cannot properly display the source of your other quote.  I'd leave it to you to bring the URL and analyze the passage.

*Frequency* is against fronting _sono_ far away from the modified noun.  They are not saying that その私 is uncomditionally wrong but that it would make その modify 私 in the given sentence.

I tentatively agree with them.  While _sono_ can modify the noun across a series of adjectives, it tends to modify the closest noun.  This means that _sono_ can modify the noun contained in the adjectival phrase that modifies the supposed target noun.

Right now, I am not going so far as to say that その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です is grammatically impossible.  If one has to, however, apeal to semantics to argue that その modifies 車 but not 私, then it is a bad sentence in terms of stylistics.


----------



## ktdd

Hi, Flaminius. Many thanks for your time and patience, and the lucid explanation. Very illuminating. ご指導いただき、ありがとうございました。

About the quotes, I'm terribly sorry. I didn't check the source. 本当に申し訳ございません。 I'll remember from now on to always quote directly and in context.

Your explanations are very logical and convincing, especially the last point. Really makes me understand a great deal better how その works. Thanks again.

As for the second quote, would you be so kind as to help me analyze the text? It's from here, 8th paragraph. My Japanese is not good enough. The more I read it, the more I feel "I the actress" and "the woman I played" are fusing into one and the same in her narrative. My understanding is this: the woman couldn't bring herself to tell her lover the truth that she was an atomic bomb victim, and when he proposed, she couldn't say yes, because she had so many worries... and then the sentence with _sono_...


> 私は、アマチュア劇団に入っており、ちょうど終戦50周年の時に、「ピカの陰から」というお芝居をやりました。
> 私は7歳のときに原爆で背中にやけどを負った、女性の役でした。
> ……
> 恋人には被爆者であるということを打ち明けられず、結婚を申し込まれても受けることができない。 その私が演じた被爆者の女性は、背中のやけどのことだけでなく、結婚したら生まれるであろう子供のことを考え、本来うれしいはずの結婚の申し込みに苦しみます。


I'm hoping Flaminius, or anyone interested, can help me parse it. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Nino83

Flaminius said:


> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です [...] If one has to, however, apeal to semantics to argue that その modifies 車 but not 私, then it is a bad sentence in terms of stylistics.


Thanks, Flaminius. 
Where would you put the demonstrative "その" if you had to write this sentence?


----------



## frequency

Flaminius said:


> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です[...] If one has to, however, apeal to semantics to argue that その _modifies 車 but not 私_, then it is a bad sentence in terms of stylistics.


Yes, agree. Context allows it.
Consider: 私は目がいい。その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です。 Then this works. その points to the person I who has good eyesight.

私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です。 is the sentence with which you're going to explain the car, and you explained so. For this kind of sentence conflicts with その, which requires its earlier mention.

ktdd, sorry for the confusion


----------



## Flaminius

ktdd said:


> ご指導いただき、ありがとうございました。


You're welcome, but ご指導 is too uptight for an internet exchange.  Replace it by 教えていただき.  I prefer more laid-back style, though: e.g., 教えてくれてありがとう.

その私が演じた被爆者の女性:
This _sono_ clearly modifies 被爆者の女性.  The context you have provided in #15 (quote snipped to 4 sentences in keeping with the Forum Rules) excludes the possibility it may modify 私 and there is no other candidate noun.

Things are a bit different for その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.  First, the sentence is given in isolation and there is no context available as a clue for understanding _sono_.  Second, there are not one but two nouns between _sono_ and its supposed target.  I place _sono_ immediately before 車, which makes the sentence as *Nino* and *Frequency* preferred it:
私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。


----------



## Nino83

Thanks for answering, Flaminius.


----------



## ktdd

@*Flaminius*:
そうですか。分かりました。教えてくれてありがとう。


----------



## kamot

Nino83 said:


> That red car of Kei (that) I saw yesterday is beautiful.
> Watashi ga kinō mita Kei no sono akai kuruma wa kirei desu.
> 私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。



According to my observation, these sentences (including original English sentence) presupposes;

The speaker has already mentioned the car.
And the listener already knows the following three facts.
The car is red.
The car is Kei's.
The speaker saw the car yesterday.

And the speaker thinks that;
All of the three facts are necessary to specify which car he is going to talk about.
Or the three facts are important for his topic.

I think this is very, very rare case. Usually, it is not ambiguous if the speaker omit one or two modifier.
That's probably why we are confused about order of "その".

If the above is really the case, all of the following work, in my opinion.



> 私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。
> 私が昨日見たその圭の赤い車は綺麗です.
> その私が昨日見た圭の赤い車は綺麗です.



As karlalou said, the merit of the last one is that the listener can understand earlier that the speaker is talking about something already mentioned.
But as frequency and Flaminius said, the demerit of the last one is that what is modified by "その" is ambiguous.


----------



## Flaminius

kamot said:


> All of the three facts are necessary to specify which car he is going to talk about.


I find 私が昨日見た less specifying what is intended by 赤い車.

その赤い車 is pretty much referring to one specific car if the previous discourse has brought up the car.  圭の赤い車 is very specific too.  You may have more than one car but it would be a rare thing to have more than one red cars.  In contrast, 私が昨日見た赤い車 is as many as red cars running on the highway.

I am much comfortable treating 私が昨日見た a piece of new information which is cast on the background established by 圭のその赤い車 or その圭の赤い車.


----------



## frequency

Imagine Nino and I are at a cafe in Tokyo. We finished ordering our coffees, and I'm going to _start a new conversation_:

私はその猫を飼っているんだけど、

...What? We haven't talked about a cat at all. Which cat is this? I understand frequency seems to have a cat, but is she talking about her cat, or another different cat?
This sounds crazy and schizophrenic. 

Moreover, we _don't_ say:
私は昨日圭の赤い車を見ました。私が昨日見た圭のその赤い車は綺麗です。Or
私は昨日圭の赤い車を見ました。私が昨日見たその圭の赤い車は綺麗です。

Furthermore,
私は昨日圭の赤い車を見ました。You're using a 私は～ clause. But you can use 車 as the topic and say: 私が昨日見た圭の赤い車.


----------



## Nino83

Yes, the usage of demonstratives is very similar if not equal in Japanese, English, Italian.
The sentence I wrote in the OP is an extreme case, and it was useful to understand which is the normal sequence of more attributive elements.
In Italian it is: *quella macchina rossa di Kei che ho visto ieri *
In English is: *that red car of Kei that I saw yesterday* 
but it is not a usual sentence, so it's not necessary that you all rack your brains  (but if you'd like to keep it going, it's a pleasure for me to read  )


----------

