# nobis amicum quam servum esse maluisti



## Tulliola

Topic sentence: 
mihi gratissimum fecisti, quod eum, indignum illa fortuna ac nobis amicum quam servum esse maluisti: 
Cagey, moderator. 

Hello, my first question, so sorry if I'm breaking any "rules". The above is an excerpt from a letter from Cicero's brother, expressing his delight in the latter's manumitting Tiro. The translation on the Persus site says - rough precis - that it was much to be preferred that Tiro be "our *freedman* and friend than slave" - yet that does not appear to be what the Latin says.  My Latin is still pretty basic, but think I'd recognise "libertus" in all its forms.

The words "our freedman" appear to be a translator's interpolation, perhaps to read it in line with the tradition that Tiro was born on the family estate - much as we might talk about the family dog as "ours" rather than "dad's"! Further on in the letter, Q Cicero compares his own freedman with his brother's, thus making a clear distinction between them.

Am I missing something? It's made me question the English translation in toto!

Ps my tablet isn't really up to this, the last word in the title should be "maluisti"!


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## Cagey

_mihi gratissimum fecisti, quod eum, indignum illa fortuna ac nobis amicum quam servum esse maluisti: _
From Cicero's brother, Quintus, to Cicero.
(Cicero _Epistulae Ad Familiares _16.16)​
I would translate it roughly as: 
"You have done something most pleasing to me, because you [judged] him unworthy of that fortune and preferred him to be a friend to us rather than a slave."


I agree that freedman is the translator's gloss, intended to clarify Tiro's status to the reader, and not in the original text.


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## Glenfarclas

Right; I believe it is "... that you preferred that he, undeserving of such a fortune, should be our friend rather than a slave."  

_Cross-posted w/ Cagey..._


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## Tulliola

Cagey said:


> _mihi gratissimum fecisti, quod eum, indignum illa fortuna ac nobis amicum quam servum esse maluisti: _
> From Cicero's brother, Quintus, to Cicero.
> (Cicero _Epistulae Ad Familiares _16.16)​
> I would translate it roughly as:
> "You have done something most pleasing to me, because you [judged] him unworthy of that fortune and preferred him to be a friend to us rather than a slave."
> 
> 
> I agree that freedman is the translator's gloss, intended to clarify Tiro's status to the reader, and not in the original text.



Thank you, Cagey, and for your useful edit of my post.

I find the translator's "_our freedman and friend" _ misleading,  as it could suggest family property, and there is a tradition that Tiro was born on the family estate. But, as I suspected, the Latin contains no such implication.  Many thanks.


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## Cagey

There is no contradiction between Tiro's having been born on the family estate and his being a slave. The child of a slave would have his parent's status. 

The letter congratulates Cicero on having manumitted Tito.  This made Tiro Cicero's 'freedman', a status that carried with it certain obligations towards Cicero, as I suspect you know.  



For anyone reading the thread who wants more background, Wiki has articles on: 
Slavery in Ancient Rome
Marcus Tullius Tiro​


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## Tulliola

Cagey said:


> There is no contradiction between Tiro's having been born on the family estate and his being a slave. The child of a slave would have his parent's status.
> 
> The letter congratulates Cicero on having manumitted Tito.  This made Tiro Cicero's 'freedman', a status that carried with it certain obligations towards Cicero, as I suspect you know.
> 
> 
> 
> For anyone reading the thread who wants more background, Wiki has articles on:
> Slavery in Ancient Rome
> Marcus Tullius Tiro​



No, that wasn't  my point. I know Tiro could have been a "verna" - born a slave on the family estate - and this is often suggested, but I've so far found no evidence that he was. My point was that the translator, in interpolating "our freedman", appears to be supporting the ungrounded assumption  that Tiro  was originally "family" property, as opposed to his brother's personal property. 

Salve


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## Cagey

You are right; I completely missed your point. 

I apologize.


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## Tulliola

No problem, thanks for your help. I know it's a minor point, but bad translations annoy me! I think I should have been clearer myself. Unfortunately, this site seems to hate my tablet, and it takes about an hour to type 3 sentences - in English! As for Latin  _timeo!  _


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## Copperknickers

Glenfarclas said:


> Right; I believe it is "... that you preferred that he, undeserving of such a fortune, should be our friend rather than a slave."
> 
> _Cross-posted w/ Cagey..._



Indeed. Although my Latin dictionary provides 'lot, fate' as another translation for 'fortune': perhaps it's just me, but describing the condition of being a slave as 'a fortune' makes it sound like Tiro was undeserving of being released from slavery, rather than being undeserving of having been born a slave.


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## Tulliola

Copperknickers said:


> Indeed. Although my Latin dictionary provides 'lot, fate' as another translation for 'fortune': perhaps it's just me, but describing the condition of being a slave as 'a fortune' makes it sound like Tiro was undeserving of being released from slavery, rather than being undeserving of having been born a slave.



Thank you, that made me laugh out loud!   My dictionary also gives "fortune", "circumstance", and "misfortune"  - and I thought Latin was precise! I suppose it's apposite - Tiro was unlucky to be a slave, lucky to be Cicero's


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