# Regional Prejudice?



## Phryne

Hello forum!

I think of regional prejudice as the atittude some people have towards people from other regions in the very same country. For instance, in Argentina, we have a saying: "Argentina termina en la General Paz" (= Argentina ends on the General Paz). "General Paz" is some kind of highway that surrounds Buenos Aires City... so Argentina ends where Buenos Aires City ends. Also, people who are "porteños" (from Buenos Aires) call the rest of the country's population "provincianos", "del interior", "pueblerinos", which is similar to "hicks". Consequently, you'll hear many people generalizing "anything happening in Buenos Aires as happening to Argentina", or the opposite, regarding some national event as if it only occurred in Buenos Aires. Unfortunately, the country is extremely centralized and so are people's minds. (another saying: " Dios es argentino y atiende en Buenos Aires" = God is Argentine and he has his office in Buenos Aires ) I can't call it racism, since people's origins can be the same, but it is still quite insulting.

Interestingly, I thought the US was far more tolerant. However, I recently read a message from a forera who claimed that some Americans had told her that she was not from a real city because she was from Philadelphia (as opposed to a megalopolis as New York is, I guess). 

I see a very strong attitude of arrogance along big city dwellers towards people from their very own country. Does it happen in your country too? How do people handle this?

saludos 

PD: I thought about this subject a while ago and a very gentle fellow forero encourage me to post it. (Many thanks to you!)


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## Sev

We've got the same kind of reactions with Paris - "province" (=rest of the country) in France.
Sometimes I find that annoying, sometimes it's more said like a joke, because it's such an old opposition...


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## modgirl

Phryne said:
			
		

> However, I recently read a message from a forera who claimed that some Americans had told her that she was not from a real city because she was from Philadelphia (as opposed to a megalopolis as New York is, I guess).


 
Here's something to remember.  Even if 1,000 Americans on this forum stated the exact same thing, there are ~276 MILLION people in the United States.  Some people are absolutely prejudiced.  Others are truly not.  I'm just not sure if there is enough evidence to support a generalization for the entire nation.

However, whoever said that Philadelphia was not a "real" city simply has an arrogant, ignorant opinion.


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## VenusEnvy

My sister stated to me the other day that she thinks she's prejudiced against states. (We were driving to NY to visit family.) "So, you're a statist??" I asked her. "Yep, I guess so!" she told me.

At her college in Maryland, apparently, a large majority of the students are from either New York or New Jersey. She has come to dislike people from these states! She then began to talk about what "New York girls" are like, and what "New Jersey girls" are like. 

Who knew?


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## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> At her college in Maryland, apparently, a large majority of the students are from either New York or New Jersey. She has come to dislike people from these states! She then began to talk about what "New York girls" are like, and what "New Jersey girls" are like.


 
Well, unfortunately, it's easy to do.  When one encounters several people from a particular region, and the people all seem to share similar (undesirable) traits, it's very hard to remain unbiased!  We really have to fight it.


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## Ana Raquel

Phryne said:
			
		

> H(another saying: " Dios es argentino y atiende en Buenos Aires" = God is Argentine and he has his office in Buenos Aires )


I had heard that joke, slightly different: "God is everywhere but he attends in Buenos Aires"

I always took it as a joke, and very funny!


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## desde aquel verano

I think that something similar happens here as it does in Argentina...
In England there is a huge bias (in nearly everything) towards London & the South East, to the extent that sometimes you get the idea that the rest of the country doesn't really matter too much.
I would go as far to say that some people from that part of the country wouldn't really consider anyone from "north of the Watford Gap" (this is a place about 50 miles north of London) to really be English.  
It sounds a bit extreme but I've met enough people who actually think that way.
Also, a strong Northern English urban accent (especially from somewhere like Manchester or Liverpool) is not really advisable in certain parts of the South, as people may get the idea that you're fairly likely to mug them or steal the hubcaps off their shiny new BMW (*tongue-in-cheek smiley*).
Well, just my own (regionally prejudiced ) opinion anyway...


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## GenJen54

I think this happens a lot in the United States where generalities are often based on a person's home state or region. A lot of this divisivness can even be traced back to Civil War days, when there was literally a war between the "North" and "South" parts of the United States. Even though the US has progressed (*coughs*) greatly since that time, certain prejudices still remain. 

Southerners are still often considered "corn pone" and less intelligent by their Northern, more city-dwelling compatriots, because of the Southerners' vocations in the agricultural industry. The more "industrialized" North and its "Yankee" denizens, has, over the course of many decades, been flagged by Southerners as rude, cold and not hospitable to outsiders.

I would say that most countries and cultures have these prejudices in some form or fashion, as it's a will of the human ego to differentiate itself from others and keep close to those of its own "tribe." I would say this tendancy towards prejudice is a natural occurring part of social anthropology, particularly among more industrialized nations. I may be spot wrong, however, and would welcome a correction.

Edit:  Corrected Misspelling on August 3, 2005.  Inexcusable, I know.


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## Edher

Saludos,

      This phenomenon is also observable in the Mexican Republic. It's quite similar to Phryne's perspective about Argentina's social condition. Obviously, Mexico's true metropolis is in Mexico City. You could virtually find just about anything there, and that is where pretty much all international affairs take place. I can think of a few cities that are beginning to become urbanized and industralized such as Guadalajara and Monterrey, however, they're doing so quite gradually. 

      Because of that, there are many people from Mexico City that feel they are modern, educated, and more connected with the world than the "provincianos" which are people from anywhere else in Mexico. 

I'm not saying that this is true, because I have met people from other states of the republic that are quite educated and well-connected, but very, very, very few. Most of the people that I've met from other states of my country, unfortunately do fit the stereotype tremendously. They are very poorly educated and regard education as something that isn't necessary, therefore, many of them just dropped out school once they completed grammar school. They also express themselves quite vulgarly, speaking very loudly, and taking every chance to use profanity even when they are talking about things they respect. They are also very traditional in the sense than men belong outside in the workfield, and women in the house taking care of kids. They are also heavy drinkers.

Now, now, don't get upset, 'provincianos' also have a perspective about people from the capital.

In the eyes of some of these people, we are regarded as rude, smart-asses, thiefs, opportunists, weird, arrogant, self-centered, selfish. Mostly as thiefs though, since obviosly crime is the main concern in Mexico City, most "provincianos" don't trust "defe~os." We are also regarded as smart-asses, meaning that according to them we act like we know everything even when we don't. Opportunist, because we are just waiting for the right moment to take advantage of provincianos and screw them up. Arrogant because supposedly we believe that we are the best of Mexico. Provincianos even have a little saying, I don't quite recall it, I hope someone corrects me, but it goes a bit like "Ayuda al pais, mata un chilango." "Help the country, kill a person from the capital."

As you can tell, it's a mutual thing. And in many cases, unfortunately people do fit this stereotypes. I've learned not to be biased because there are exceptions, it is tough though when people live up to their bad perspectives. Yet, I still get to know the person first, without taking much into consideration where they are from. I mean, even my closest friend is from "provincia' though we're always making fun of each other when we act a certain way that can be attributed to the stereotype.

Edher


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## astronauta

Hehehehe, everyone in Canada makes fun about the Noofies (New Foundlanders) and the US makes fun of us  it's a never ending chain!


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## fenixpollo

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> A lot of this divisivness can even be traced back to Civi*l* War days, when there was literally a war between the "North" and "South" parts of the United States.


Just a slight correction, GenJen.

Let me add another regional prejudice in the U.S.: Eastern misconception of the Western U.S.  

The majority of the population lives in the Eastern one-third of the country.  Many Easterners consider everything to the West of the coastal states (or, if they're generous, the Mississippi River) "Out West."  Many Easterners I've talked to still imagine that my city -- the nation's 6th-largest (behind Philadelphia) -- is populated by cowboys, sand dunes and rattlesnakes.

I guess it's not prejudice so much as ignorance, but it bothers me nonetheless.  
Cheers to all! (no, we don't say "howdy" in Arizona!)


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## cuchuflete

Hola MJ,

I've seen anti-southern prejudice among people in Italy and Spain, and the cosmopolitan _vs._ provincial variety in Argentina, Spain, Mexico and other nations. In my own country there are many varieties of regional prejudice, all without factual foundation, but as dearly held as most bad habits.

Northerners and Southerners stereotype one another in unflattering ways. Californians, including those who have never set foot in Boston or Baltimore or Philadelphia, issue blanket criticisms of the East. Transplanted easterners residing in California proudly brag that they don't have potholes in their highways...this was before the recent rains created many. They also tend not to have snow along the coast...but that's of no importance. Many easterners seem to believe that anything west of Pittsburgh is a farm.... and on and on it goes.

The funniest part for me is the idiocy of the politicians, who every fourth year discover "the heartland of America". They extol the virtues of the farmers of the mid-west, as if all city dwellers were treasonous, and as if there were no family farms in northern New England, New Jersey, New York State, and Pennsylvania. 

I've lived in Philadelphia, and will happily testify that it's a major city, with fine museums, restaurants, and one of the best symphony orchestras around. It has a population of a few million, so it's hardly a backwater.

I am surprised to hear from Astonauta Veg. that American make fun of Canadians.  I thought it was the other way around  Seriously, Americans are too busy making fun of one another to have time to poke fun at foreign 
neighbors.


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## Isotta

Having lived in both Canada and the United States, I found that Canadians made fun of Americans more frequently, but the U.S. never seemed to notice Canada much at all. My father, a geographer, always attributed this self-preoccupation to a general lack of geography courses in American public school systems. His idea was not particularly well-received by Americans.

I think regional differences within a country are ineluctable and unmistakable. Each region has a different mentality. People make sweeping characterisations at their peril. Chiefly it can reflect poorly on the utterer. If an American from the North makes fun of a Southerner for being uneducated or stupid, he may find his spoken grammatical mistakes corrected. And so on. 

So while I'm not inherently against regional prejudices, since they are not always offensive, I'm more for panhumanism.

Isotta.


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## meili

Good day MJ!
If you are from my country and you are from Manila (capital), then you are from the city. All other cities (and provinces) are provinces in the minds of 'most' people from Manila. On the other hand, when you are from my city (Zamboanga), most people will fear you (though my city and theirs are the same - just much diverse in culture, rich in sea foods, etc. etc.) because we are located in the Southern part of the Philippines (also where most Muslim Filipinos are), just a speed boat ride away from where the 'terrorists' are said to be located.
If you are a probinsyano (not from the _city_), you will be oftentimes laugh at for the different pronunciations that you make (different cities/provinces has different dialects!!). Awful, rather awful!


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## cuchuflete

meili said:
			
		

> Good day MJ!
> If you are from my country and you are from Manila (capital), then *you are from the city. All other cities (and provinces) are provinces in the minds of 'most' people *



It's a fascinating matter of perspective.  When I moved here, to this very rural place, a few years ago, I received some instruction.  Another transplanted Mainer, from San Francisco...three thousand miles away...and I were talking.  He asked where my sons live.  

I mentioned that one of them lives in "the city".  He smiled, and then said the following:
 "When you first arrive here, and say 'the city', you mean New York or Boston.  After a few years, you mean Portland (largest city in Maine, about 75,000 people).  After six or seven years, you mean Bath (about 10 miles away, population 9300)!"


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## Phryne

Edher said:
			
		

> Saludos,
> 
> This phenomenon is also observable in the Mexican Republic. It's quite similar to Phryne's perspective about Argentina's social condition. Obviously, Mexico's true metropolis is in Mexico City. You could virtually find just about anything there, and that is where pretty much all international affairs take place. I can think of a few cities that are beginning to become urbanized and industralized such as Guadalajara and Monterrey, however, they're doing so quite gradually.
> 
> Because of that, there are many people from Mexico City that feel they are modern, educated, and more connected with the world than the "provincianos" which are people from anywhere else in Mexico.
> 
> I'm not saying that this is true, because I have met people from other states of the republic that are quite educated and well-connected, but very, very, very few. Most of the people that I've met from other states of my country, unfortunately do fit the stereotype tremendously. They are very poorly educated and regard education as something that isn't necessary, therefore, many of them just dropped out school once they completed grammar school. They also express themselves quite vulgarly, speaking very loudly, and taking every chance to use profanity even when they are talking about things they respect. They are also very traditional in the sense than men belong outside in the workfield, and women in the house taking care of kids. They are also heavy drinkers.
> 
> Now, now, don't get upset, 'provincianos' also have a perspective about people from the capital.
> 
> In the eyes of some of these people, we are regarded as rude, smart-asses, thiefs, opportunists, weird, arrogant, self-centered, selfish. Mostly as thiefs though, since obviosly crime is the main concern in Mexico City, most "provincianos" don't trust "defe~os." We are also regarded as smart-asses, meaning that according to them we act like we know everything even when we don't. Opportunist, because we are just waiting for the right moment to take advantage of provincianos and screw them up. Arrogant because supposedly we believe that we are the best of Mexico. Provincianos even have a little saying, I don't quite recall it, I hope someone corrects me, but it goes a bit like "Ayuda al pais, mata un chilango." "Help the country, kill a person from the capital."
> 
> As you can tell, it's a mutual thing. And in many cases, unfortunately people do fit this stereotypes. I've learned not to be biased because there are exceptions, it is tough though when people live up to their bad perspectives. Yet, I still get to know the person first, without taking much into consideration where they are from. I mean, even my closest friend is from "provincia' though we're always making fun of each other when we act a certain way that can be attributed to the stereotype.
> 
> Edher


 Hello Edher!

 That's exactly what I was talking about! To me all those are merely stereotypes and, therefore, they mean nothing. In you eyes, for instance, I’m one of those you refer to as pronivicianos and by any way I fit the descriptions you illustrated. All right, Mexico is a different reality than Argentina is, but nevertheless, you do what porteños* do. Also, don’t you think you are doing exactly of what Mexicans normally complain about when either Americans or Europeans describe you people? Let me rephrase it. You accuse people from smaller cities to be uneducated, drinkers, violent and so on, while I see that people from the US believe that Mexicans are uneducated, drinkers, violent and so on. You are doing exactly the same! 

 See, in the porteño’s eyes I’m exactly what you described. My country has many cities, Buenos Aires being the major one and capital of the republic, we all know that. I’m from Rosario, with 1,000,000 inhabitants. In my Rosarina heart, it’s the second largest city, but fairly, it’s probably the third one. In US standards, it’s a city. It actually has more people than San Francisco does. Nevertheless, in Buenos Aires standards, it’s still “provincia”. But this belief is way wrong. It may not be as chaotic as Buenos Aires, but it’s still urbanized and people have “city lives”, whatever that means.

 Education isn’t an indicator, as you mentioned, because I know people from tiny little towns lost around the pampas who are highly educated and although they may not have universities in town, they still attend to the State universities located in any city nearby. 

 Maybe you would argue that people’s mind set is different and they are “simpler”. Well, sometimes it is different, yes, but definitely not “simpler” or anything to be diminished as it normally is. To me, the biggest difference is that people that live large cities tend to be very neurotic, but in any case, they are not wittier. If you think about it in those terms, even Buenos Aires City languishes to some international megalopolis as New York is. And even so, I, a “provinciana” girl from Rosario can manage this city. I work and study in this supposedly “crazy city”, and not only I can handle both, but I’m also an excellent student. I did’t drop out of school, I’m not a heavy drinker, I’m not lazy, and I’m definitely not “simpler”. Perhaps, I’m just not as neurotic, but that can be the result of a couple of years of therapy. That’s all.

    saludos 

*porteño = person from Buenos   Aires.


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## asm

I think the USA is not as divided as it was in the past regarding race and regionalism; however, the wound are still open. It took me a while to know about concepts as hillbilies and red necks (I live in the south). I am amazed with these subcultures that still exist.

If I talk about Mexico, it is certain that we have a similar perspective as the one you talk about in Argentina. Mexico city is THE city, the others are Provincias, as you say. It is sad we have this attitude among our own people, and that we discriminate 

What you said about God being from Argentina reminded me what a former dictator in Mexico once said: Pobre Mexico, tan lejos de Dios y tan cerca de Estados Unidos". Now I know where he is and where should I go to in order to visit him.  



			
				Phryne said:
			
		

> Hello forum!
> 
> I think of regional prejudice as the atittude some people have towards people from other regions in the very same country. For instance, in Argentina, we have a saying: "Argentina termina en la General Paz" (= Argentina ends on the General Paz). "General Paz" is some kind of highway that surrounds Buenos Aires City... so Argentina ends where Buenos Aires City ends. Also, people who are "porteños" (from Buenos Aires) call the rest of the country's population "provincianos", "del interior", "pueblerinos", which is similar to "hicks". Consequently, you'll hear many people generalizing "anything happening in Buenos Aires as happening to Argentina", or the opposite, regarding some national event as if it only occurred in Buenos Aires. Unfortunately, the country is extremely centralized and so are people's minds. (another saying: " Dios es argentino y atiende en Buenos Aires" = God is Argentine and he has his office in Buenos Aires ) I can't call it racism, since people's origins can be the same, but it is still quite insulting.
> 
> Interestingly, I thought the US was far more tolerant. However, I recently read a message from a forera who claimed that some Americans had told her that she was not from a real city because she was from Philadelphia (as opposed to a megalopolis as New York is, I guess).
> 
> I see a very strong attitude of arrogance along big city dwellers towards people from their very own country. Does it happen in your country too? How do people handle this?
> 
> saludos
> 
> PD: I thought about this subject a while ago and a very gentle fellow forero encourage me to post it. (Many thanks to you!)


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## BasedowLives

iowa gets made fun of.

"i live in iowa"
"wtf?  there's people there?"


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## meili

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> iowa gets made fun of.
> 
> "i live in iowa"
> "wtf? there's people there?"


 
 Again. Awful, rather awful! 
Problem is, these people sure has never set foot on our / this place we call home.  Just let them try.  I am sure they are going to have the grandest times of their lives.


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## marygg

Edher said:
			
		

> Saludos,
> 
> This phenomenon is also observable in the Mexican Republic. It's quite similar to Phryne's perspective about Argentina's social condition. Obviously, Mexico's true metropolis is in Mexico City. You could virtually find just about anything there, and that is where pretty much all international affairs take place. I can think of a few cities that are beginning to become urbanized and industralized such as Guadalajara and Monterrey, however, they're doing so quite gradually.
> 
> Because of that, there are many people from Mexico City that feel they are modern, educated, and more connected with the world than the "provincianos" which are people from anywhere else in Mexico.
> 
> I'm not saying that this is true, because I have met people from other states of the republic that are quite educated and well-connected, but very, very, very few. Most of the people that I've met from other states of my country, unfortunately do fit the stereotype tremendously. They are very poorly educated and regard education as something that isn't necessary, therefore, many of them just dropped out school once they completed grammar school. They also express themselves quite vulgarly, speaking very loudly, and taking every chance to use profanity even when they are talking about things they respect. They are also very traditional in the sense than men belong outside in the workfield, and women in the house taking care of kids. They are also heavy drinkers.
> 
> Now, now, don't get upset, 'provincianos' also have a perspective about people from the capital.
> 
> In the eyes of some of these people, we are regarded as rude, smart-asses, thiefs, opportunists, weird, arrogant, self-centered, selfish. Mostly as thiefs though, since obviosly crime is the main concern in Mexico City, most "provincianos" don't trust "defe~os." We are also regarded as smart-asses, meaning that according to them we act like we know everything even when we don't. Opportunist, because we are just waiting for the right moment to take advantage of provincianos and screw them up. Arrogant because supposedly we believe that we are the best of Mexico. Provincianos even have a little saying, I don't quite recall it, I hope someone corrects me, but it goes a bit like "Ayuda al pais, mata un chilango." "Help the country, kill a person from the capital."
> 
> As you can tell, it's a mutual thing. And in many cases, unfortunately people do fit this stereotypes. I've learned not to be biased because there are exceptions, it is tough though when people live up to their bad perspectives. Yet, I still get to know the person first, without taking much into consideration where they are from. I mean, even my closest friend is from "provincia' though we're always making fun of each other when we act a certain way that can be attributed to the stereotype.
> 
> Edher


 
Hi, I didn't know that the people from Mexico city thinks that things about the rest of the country, I'm a little concern because you said that a lot of people adjust to that stereotype, because in everywhere there are people without education, it  is not a characteristic of a place.

Do you know Monterrey? I don't love it, because I'm from Coahuila but I'm living here now. I don't like it because everybody makes fun about me, because they said that I'm from a tiny city, that I use horses to transport and the city has only three houses, and that is not true, I hate when the people do that...

Well about Monterrey, this is the city that gives more money in taxs, the education is more expensive here than in the Mexico city, and this city is so big and industralized, I'm not defending, is what I see, and I see that here the politicians have a big ego, they need to show the city's money and the built useless things, in my opinion, like a beautiful bridge, it wasn't a necessity, and a big flag of Mexico, you can see it almost from everywhere..... "regios"<---people from monterrey, "foraneos"<--- people from the rest of the country, we live arguing (in a good way, making fun from everybody)

Well this post has a lot of ideas, sorry


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## Edher

Phryne said:
			
		

> Hello Edher!
> 
> That's exactly what I was talking about! To me all those are merely stereotypes and, therefore, they mean nothing. In you eyes, for instance, I’m one of those you refer to as pronivicianos and by any way I fit the descriptions you illustrated. All right, Mexico is a different reality than Argentina is, but nevertheless, you do what porteños* do. Also, don’t you think you are doing exactly of what Mexicans normally complain about when either Americans or Europeans describe you people? Let me rephrase it. You accuse people from smaller cities to be uneducated, drinkers, violent and so on, while I see that people from the US believe that Mexicans are uneducated, drinkers, violent and so on. You are doing exactly the same!
> 
> See, in the porteño’s eyes I’m exactly what you described. My country has many cities, Buenos Aires being the major one and capital of the republic, we all know that. I’m from Rosario, with 1,000,000 inhabitants. In my Rosarina heart, it’s the second largest city, but fairly, it’s probably the third one. In US standards, it’s a city. It actually has more people than San Francisco does. Nevertheless, in Buenos Aires standards, it’s still “provincia”. But this belief is way wrong. It may not be as chaotic as Buenos Aires, but it’s still urbanized and people have “city lives”, whatever that means.
> 
> Education isn’t an indicator, as you mentioned, because I know people from tiny little towns lost around the pampas who are highly educated and although they may not have universities in town, they still attend to the State universities located in any city nearby.
> 
> Maybe you would argue that people’s mind set is different and they are “simpler”. Well, sometimes it is different, yes, but definitely not “simpler” or anything to be diminished as it normally is. To me, the biggest difference is that people that live large cities tend to be very neurotic, but in any case, they are not wittier. If you think about it in those terms, even Buenos Aires City languishes to some international megalopolis as New York is. And even so, I, a “provinciana” girl from Rosario can manage this city. I work and study in this supposedly “crazy city”, and not only I can handle both, but I’m also an excellent student. I did’t drop out of school, I’m not a heavy drinker, I’m not lazy, and I’m definitely not “simpler”. Perhaps, I’m just not as neurotic, but that can be the result of a couple of years of therapy. That’s all.
> 
> saludos
> 
> *porteño = person from Buenos   Aires.



Saludos Phryne,

It is not clear to me whether you read the last paragraph of my post or not, therefore I'm going to rephrase it. What I sharing with the rest of the foreros was the public opinion about people from different parts of my country. Never did I mention those were my personal beliefs. As I said towards the end of my post. My closest from is from provincia (Sonora), and obviously, he doesn't fit the stereotype otherwise we wouldn't be such good friends. Another friend that I admire and respect quite a bit because of her education, her ideology and some of her virtues, is as well from provincia (Jalisco.) I am perfectly aware that not everyone from a certain place are exactly the same.

Here lies the irony. After those friends that I described above became good friends, they let me in on a little secret. They told me that when we first introduced each and thus told each other where we were from, they admitted that since I said I was from Mexico City, they thought that I was going to be arrogant and not very trustworthy. So you see, it's a mutual thing, everyone is the victim, not just the provincianos. I was a little bothered when they told me this, but I managed to look the other way. When they told me where they were from I was a bit shocked because I had already seen them performed quite well in there tasks so they had already earn my respect, therefore, when they shared with their origin I was a bit taken back, so the stereotype that I had heard from other people became more of a myth to me.

Here's more irony, I have met people with whom I've indulged in a good conversation, and in the middle of the conversation the question arises, what part of Mexico are you from? I tell them, and I always get the same look. "The oh, you're from there, I'm not quite sure if I want to continue talking to you." Very, very often, and it's funny because it's always the same look of dissapointment. There are some others that take it even further, they start making fun of me because I'm from Mexico City. They say, "if something's missing, you know, who to blame." or they start talking like the lower class in Mexico City, and they say, "I say like this so that you can understand me." And they team up on me, four or five people at the time, and to them, that's joy. At first, I would get a bit upset, but then I took a second look at them, and notice who they were, they had the worse jobs, the lowest of education, didn't care about self-improvement, they thought that school was a waste of time, they all were heavy-drinkers. So I told myself, why bother pointing that out, they are already living in those conditions, what could be worse.

And I met more and more people like that, that were from provincia, and at this point I have the right to generalize and say "hey, they're all the same" but then I remember my friends, and that's what keeps me from being biased. Whenever I meet someone from my country, that's about the last thing I ask them, about their origin.

By the way, I never accused anyone of anything. I think you used the wrong word there. Sadly enough, the representation that Mexicans have in this country is a really poor one. Obviously, the majority of immigrants from Mexico to this country are of poor education, that's the whole reason why they come to this country, to try to find a job that doesn't require that much education which are the worse jobs. And these people for the most part tend to fit the stereotype, heavy-drinkers, ill-mannered, etc. I do not support this stereotype since I know I'm not like that, but I do understand why Americans feel like that about Mexicans.

Edher


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## Phryne

Edher said:
			
		

> Saludos Phryne,
> 
> It is not clear to me whether you read the last paragraph of my post or not, therefore I'm going to rephrase it. What I sharing with the rest of the foreros was the public opinion about people from different parts of my country. Never did I mention those were my personal beliefs. As I said towards the end of my post. My closest from is from provincia (Sonora), and obviously, he doesn't fit the stereotype otherwise we wouldn't be such good friends. Another friend that I admire and respect quite a bit because of her education, her ideology and some of her virtues, is as well from provincia (Jalisco.) I am perfectly aware that not everyone from a certain place are exactly the same.
> 
> Here lies the irony. After those friends that I described above became good friends, they let me in on a little secret. They told me that when we first introduced each and thus told each other where we were from, they admitted that since I said I was from Mexico City, they thought that I was going to be arrogant and not very trustworthy. So you see, it's a mutual thing, everyone is the victim, not just the provincianos. I was a little bothered when they told me this, but I managed to look the other way. When they told me where they were from I was a bit shocked because I had already seen them performed quite well in there tasks so they had already earn my respect, therefore, when they shared with their origin I was a bit taken back, so the stereotype that I had heard from other people became more of a myth to me.
> 
> Here's more irony, I have met people with whom I've indulged in a good conversation, and in the middle of the conversation the question arises, what part of Mexico are you from? I tell them, and I always get the same look. "The oh, you're from there, I'm not quite sure if I want to continue talking to you." Very, very often, and it's funny because it's always the same look of dissapointment. There are some others that take it even further, they start making fun of me because I'm from Mexico City. They say, "if something's missing, you know, who to blame." or they start talking like the lower class in Mexico City, and they say, "I say like this so that you can understand me." And they team up on me, four or five people at the time, and to them, that's joy. At first, I would get a bit upset, but then I took a second look at them, and notice who they were, they had the worse jobs, the lowest of education, didn't care about self-improvement, they thought that school was a waste of time, they all were heavy-drinkers. So I told myself, why bother pointing that out, they are already living in those conditions, what could be worse.
> 
> And I met more and more people like that, that were from provincia, and at this point I have the right to generalize and say "hey, they're all the same" but then I remember my friends, and that's what keeps me from being biased. Whenever I meet someone from my country, that's about the last thing I ask them, about their origin.
> 
> By the way, I never accused anyone of anything. I think you used the wrong word there. Sadly enough, the representation that Mexicans have in this country is a really poor one. Obviously, the majority of immigrants from Mexico to this country are of poor education, that's the whole reason why they come to this country, to try to find a job that doesn't require that much education which are the worse jobs. And these people for the most part tend to fit the stereotype, heavy-drinkers, ill-mannered, etc. I do not support this stereotype since I know I'm not like that, but I do understand why Americans feel like that about Mexicans.
> 
> Edher


I indeed read your final paragraph, and I found it to be a little contradictory, especially on the part when you say “unfortunately people do fit these stereotypes”. My understanding on your posts is that you want to sound unbiased, but all you do is to go on and on, on characterizing, both chilangos and provincianos. I very much ignore the Mexican problem regarding the strong dichotomy between the DF and the rest of the country and whichever issue that may act on it. Nevertheless, I’m aware of a couple of things. 

 First, anyone can fit on a stereotype, and thus, we should be more careful before we put labels on people. For instance, you talk about uneducated, heavy-drinking and ill-mannered people in the provinces but you neglect to mention all the social problems in big cities, such as street children, domestic violence, robberies, etc, etc. Remember, Mexico City is considered to have the second-highest number of kidnappings in the world (data from 2003). Huh, you people don’t seem that well-behaved to me. Nor do I think that having street children is that well-educated. Should I venture to say that you chilangos are also ill-mannered, heavy-drinkers, and the like? See, anyone can fit a stereotype.

 Second, I’ve met a lot of really interesting Mexicans in this forum that happen to be from many places in the country. Are they the exception? What about your friends from Jalisco and Sonora? Are they also exceptions?

 Third, I’ve happened to meet some of those _espaldas mojadas_ in the US, and I have to say, perhaps they are not the most well-read people I’ve come across, but they are definitely one of the hardest workers in this country. Do you think that leaving your family behind, crossing the frontier in horrendous conditions, and being enslaved at the worst wages for long hours actually are descriptions of a lazy person?

I’m sorry to be so harsh on you, but the more you say, the more convinced I am that you truly believe in the existence of these stereotypes.

 saludos


----------



## timpeac

In England there is a healthy rivalry between the north and south, but I don't think either part seriously believes they or superior (or do they?).

In the whole of England, despite some other cities of size, London is very much the city. Certainly in the south of England it overshadows everything from infrastructure (the vast majority of trains go in and out from London) to the economy (the better paid jobs are there). However, I don't think there is any snobbery involved about living there (although Londoners see it differently perhaps). If anything I think it's the other way round (but maybe that's because I don't live there ). Those of us who don't live in London are rather smug and self-satisfied at managing to have a reasonable life-style without all the polution/overcrowding/public transport etc etc.

Whenever I have cause to go to London I leave as quickly as possible and thank my lucky stars I don't have to go there very often.


----------



## Edher

Phryne said:
			
		

> I indeed read your final paragraph, and I found it to be a little contradictory, especially on the part when you say “unfortunately people do fit these stereotypes”. My understanding on your posts is that you want to sound unbiased, but all you do is to go on and on, on characterizing, both chilangos and provincianos. I very much ignore the Mexican problem regarding the strong dichotomy between the DF and the rest of the country and whichever issue that may act on it. Nevertheless, I’m aware of a couple of things.
> 
> First, anyone can fit on a stereotype, and thus, we should be more careful before we put labels on people. For instance, you talk about uneducated, heavy-drinking and ill-mannered people in the provinces but you neglect to mention all the social problems in big cities, such as street children, domestic violence, robberies, etc, etc. Remember, Mexico City is considered to have the second-highest number of kidnappings in the world (data from 2003). Huh, you people don’t seem that well-behaved to me. Nor do I think that having street children is that well-educated. Should I venture to say that you chilangos are also ill-mannered, heavy-drinkers, and the like? See, anyone can fit a stereotype.
> 
> Second, I’ve met a lot of really interesting Mexicans in this forum that happen to be from many places in the country. Are they the exception? What about your friends from Jalisco and Sonora? Are they also exceptions?
> 
> Third, I’ve happened to meet some of those _espaldas mojadas_ in the US, and I have to say, perhaps they are not the most well-read people I’ve come across, but they are definitely one of the hardest workers in this country. Do you think that leaving your family behind, crossing the frontier in horrendous conditions, and being enslaved at the worst wages for long hours actually are descriptions of a lazy person?
> 
> I’m sorry to be so harsh on you, but the more you say, the more convinced I am that you truly believe in the existence of these stereotypes.
> 
> saludos



Hola Phryne,

I do not find the statement "unfortunately people do fit these stereotypes" contradictory when I am obviously referring to the people I have encountared. I am speaking about my experiences, about the people that I have met, and yes, unfortunately the good majority of the people that I have met that are from a certain part of the country do tend to fit that stereotype. Again, Phryne, these are the people that I have met, I cannot speak for the others that I haven't met and that are from a certain part of my country. I am not supporting the stereotypes, I am simply describing my experiences.

I am describing the bias that exists in my country because that is the purpose of this thread, if I "go on and on" it is only because I want to share with the rest of the foreros the situation in my country.

I do agree with you that anyone can fit the stereotype, that you don't have to be from a certain part of Mexico to act a certain way. Any one can, regardless of their origin. Again, however, I was describing the overall public opinion, and my personal experiences. Of course I have met defe~os that are heavy drinkers, not well-educated, and the rest of stereotype of provinicianos, but I haven't met as many defe~os that fit that stereotype as I have provincianos. Again, from my experience Phryne. 

I did speak about the crime problem that my city of origin, and actually the whole country, is suffering. I know that most of it takes place in Mexico City and I did mention that because that's one of the stereotypes that provincianos have about defe~os. 

You're going to find interesting that the children of the streets in Mexico are largely of parents that migrated from provincia to Mexico City. 

You're also going to find even more interesting that domestic violence is far more common in provincia since the values are far more traditional and therefore, men from provincia tend to be more machistas. And since the law in this states is also more traditional, women get less help from the authorities in cases like these, since they side with the husband most of the time. Again, Phryne, not all of them, but the majority that I have encountered.

Never did I say that Mexicans that immigrate to this country are lazy. Simply because I say that many of the ones that I talked to told me that they didn't finish school because they didn't find it necessary, that doesn't mean that I labeled them as lazy. They obviously have different values and interests. 
 Not being well-educated does not equal lazy. I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

Yes, the friends that I talked to proved to be exceptions of that stereotype, and therefore it makes the stereotype less powereful and became more of a myth to me. And I have met people here and there from provincia and some of them were well-behaved, and pleasant people altogether. But again, Phryne, I am generalizing my overall experiences, and unfortunately for the most part people do fit the stereotype. However, that doesn't mean that I'm filled with bias and prejudice. It is simply and observation. I am simply describing my observation, and not my belief. It would go against my table of values to be biased, beause then I could also be a racist, but that goes against my beliefs as well, especially as a biologist. 

The fact that I am stating my observations doesn't mean that I support any conclusions made by others. In my opinion, you're being like the hurt dog that attacked the rock that hit him, rather than the hand that threw it. 

Edher


----------



## Merlin

Wherever you go, you will always encounter descrimination. City dwellers often make fun of people living on the countryside (or provinces just like in the Philippines). They make fun of them like playing jokes and humiliating them infront of other people. "Why don't you go back to your farm/province? You don't belong here country boy!" They act like they're the only people who have the right to live in the city. They are not aware about the humble beginnings of what they now call "City." Cities were once a simple community and as time goes by, it evolved and turned into a city. Traders and investors began to arrive and many people rushed in creating new jobs, establishments and buildings.
They are not aware that most of the products that they are using in their everyday lives came from the countryside. Farm and dairy products coming from farms are brought to the city for processing and turned to products like cornflakes, canned goods and more. Imagine if no one lives on the countryside. Everyone is living in big cities. Where will we get our raw materials for our supplies? Big cities don't have large farmlands and greenfields. You can't plant on concrete! 
We don't have to descriminate people eventhough they're not from a city. We just have to accept that we have our own place on earth. And the reason why we are in that place. God made us equal. It does not matter to him if you are rich or if you live in the city. What's important is you were given a chance to live. Just my idea....


----------



## fenixpollo

Edher, in one sentence you claim that you are not biased towards provincianos, then in the next sentence you say that very, very few of them are actually intelligent, capable and sober: 


			
				Edher said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that this is true, because I have met people from other states of the republic that are quite educated and well-connected, but very, very, very few. Most of the people that I've met from other states of my country, unfortunately do fit the stereotype tremendously.


 First you say things that are very biased, and in the same breath you say that you are not biased:


			
				Edher said:
			
		

> Again, however, I was describing the overall public opinion, and my personal experiences.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean that I'm filled with bias and prejudice. It is simply and observation. I am simply describing my observation, and not my belief. It would go against my table of values to be biased, beause then I could also be a racist, but that goes against my beliefs as well, especially as a biologist.


It is apparent to many foreros that your comments are contradictory and offensive.


			
				Edher said:
			
		

> The fact that I am stating my observations doesn't mean that I support any conclusions made by others. In my opinion, you're being like the hurt dog that attacked the rock that hit him, rather than the hand that threw it.


 You defend your opinions, and in the same breath you say that they are NOT your opinions, rather the opinions of other people. Finally, you accuse another forer@ of attacking you unjustly, using language that is a little insulting.

I thought that this thread exists for us to *comment* on regional stereotypes, not *perpetuate* them.


----------



## Edher

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Edher, in one sentence you claim that you are not biased towards provincianos, then in the next sentence you say that very, very few of them are actually intelligent, capable and sober:
> First you say things that are very biased, and in the same breath you say that you are not biased:
> It is apparent to many foreros that your comments are contradictory and offensive.
> You defend your opinions, and in the same breath you say that they are NOT your opinions, rather the opinions of other people. Finally, you accuse another forer@ of attacking you unjustly, using language that is a little insulting.
> 
> I thought that this thread exists for us to *comment* on regional stereotypes, not *perpetuate* them.



Saludos plumifero,

   I don't believe anything I have said is biased. I was presenting the overall public opinion, the whole purpose of this thread, by describing and explaining typical stereotypes that exist in my country for decades. Again, those were not my beliefs or opinions, they are simply the public opinion. Thus, I posted the negative characteristics that these stereotypes convey to inform foreros, not to attack or upset any one.

    I then said, speaking about my personal experiences, that unfortunately, most of the people that I have met from provincia do fit that stereotype. That is not bias, I am simply presenting a personal observation. You can call it bad luck, that perhaps I haven't met many others from provincia that don't fit the typical stereotype, you can call it anything you'd like Pollo. 

     I'm not saying that because I haven't met many people that don't fit that stereotype from provincia that I'm going to generalize all of them and always have that prejudice in mind. I know that people are different. Being biased is saying "I've giving up, I gave them a chance, but they're all the same." Never have I stated that. I said that despite the unfortunate constant experiences that I had, I still remain unbiased when meeting people from provincia because I know not all of them are the same. 

By the way, I never said very very few of them are intelligent, capable and sober. I said that unfortunately, I have not met many people from provincia that don't fit that stereotype. Again, that's a personal observation, from personal experiences. Again Pollo, you can call it bad luck, perhaps it is, I am just commenting on my unfortunate experiences. By the simple fact that I had those experiences that doesn't conclude anything, because there are millions and millions of people from provincia, it could be that maybe I just met some bad apples and still haven't met many of the good ones. And I do believe that, that's why I remain neutral. 

I never defended any of the public opinions. By simply stating my experiences that I've had that match the public opinion as well as others that don't, that doesn't mean that I am supporting anything. It's presenting, not supporting. To support a public opinion I would say, "I agree with the public opinion because...' But I haven't said that. Whenever I support something I do it bluntly and not in a subtle way. Neither of those occurred here.

You are absolutely correct, the purpose of this thread was to comment, and that is what I did. I didn't support anything, I simply informed about my experiences. I also informed about my beliefs and I said that I am not biased. 

I don't believe I used "insulting language" Pollo. I haven't used any bad words, or perhaps I used words that are nuetral but you personally find them offensive. If that's the case, then you're the one that's chosing to interpret it as offensive. If you are upset about the "dog" part, I could easily change that to, pollo, bird, horse, giraffe, lion, etc. I was speaking figuratively. By the way, even Phryne admitted "to be going harsh" on me. He accused of being a biased porte~o-like person and even dared to say what my view of him is (puttin words in my mouth) and about how I treat people from provincia (putting actions in my life) without even knowing me at all. Whose being biased now?

Calmado pollito, no se me desplume.

Edher


----------



## Phryne

Edher:

In my humble opinion, as fenixpollo said, you are indeed supporting the stereotypes. Even though you acknowledge that some people don’t fit these stereotypes, you still continue to state that (quote_)“unfortunately for the most part people do fit the stereotype”_ (unquote). Are you that sure you’re embracing them? Read below when you state that (quote_)“Of course I have met defe~os that are heavy drinkers, not well-educated, and the rest of stereotype of provinicianos, but I haven't met as many defe~os that fit that stereotype as I have provincianos”_ (unquote). There is a concept called the _outgroup homogeneity bias _which asserts that people see their own group as being more varied than people from other groups.

 Additionally, there’s also a difference between what the collective believes and your own experience of things. You mention that you simply repeat the general public’s belief and, separately, what you have encountered. Funny enough, they both state the same thought. You agree with the general stereotypes regardless of the people that proved you wrong. Also, you claim to merely describe your observation, which means that your opinions are based on anecdotal events. That being the said, wouldn’t you think that it’s a little insulting to the Mexican foreros that are not from the DF?

 Following the previous ideas, there is a huge difference between myths, stereotypes, general beliefs and how things really are. Indeed, people are culturally _different_ from one place to the other, but _how we perceive these differences (with all our biases and preconceptions) is what constructs a stereotype_. Biases come from many experiences: some personal and some shared (the mass media play a great role in this general construction of stereotypes), but in any case they are not free of prejudgments. For this reason, most times it’s a negative construction. In my opinion, and you have the right of disregard it, you are not unprejudiced at all. You should know this quite well as a biologist that any observation is biased to some degree, and even more if you’re not a scientist or a serious researcher on the subject. 

 As a note, if you think that comparing amounts of crime and deviance from provincias and city will make the stereotype be true, you missed the point. [And I want to believe that you assure that crime and violence is worse in the provinces because you read statistics about those issues and not because of possible misconceptions from the general belief]. 

 Finally, if the hand that threw the stone is the general belief, then I will continue to bark at the stone for not questioning ideas that on top of not being necessarily accurate, they may also be insulting to some people. 

 Saludos,

 María José


----------



## asm

Estimado paisano:

Solo dos comentarios, el primero tiene que ver con tu experiencia. Yo soy de la ciudad de Mexico y se lo que es la discriminacion en ambos sentidos (capitalinos criticando a los demas y los demas criticando a los capitalinos). Sin embargo solo añado que en mi experiencia he encontrado gente maravillosa, inteligente, responsable y todas las demas otras cosas que pueden descomponer los estereotipos. Esa gente maravillosa es del DF y de provincia, del campo y de la ciudad, primera generacion de mexicanos y descendientes de indigenas, vaya hasta extranjeros . Tambien he visto, lamentablemente, gente irresponsable, criminales, tomadores, etc. todo lo que entra en el esteretipo (y peor) y esas personas vienen de los mismos lugares que el grupo anterior. Yo no puedo distinguir un patron solo por ser o no capitalino. 
Le platicas a "pollo" que en tu experiencia has encontrado mas gente de provincia que "cae" en la defiinicion de la que no; para eso hay dos soluciones, la primera es cambiar de ambiente, quizas no has tenido suerte de encontrar gente "del otro monton", la segunda es que cambies tu patron de observacion, quizas llegues a ver que no son tan malos como el estereotipo que se ha mencionado. Te invito a que leas Mateo capitulo 7.



2.- Phryne no es "he", es una NENA. Yo lo aprendi de la misma forma que tú; diciendo "he" -"him" etc hasta que me hicieron la observacion .

Saludos cordiales desde estados unidos, con un pie en KY y el corazon en Mexico.

PD *Todos* tenemos _algo_ de "bias"; como dijeron, el que este libre de prejuicios que tire la primera piedra (fue asi???)




			
				Edher said:
			
		

> Saludos plumifero,
> 
> I don't believe anything I have said is biased. I was presenting the overall public opinion, the whole purpose of this thread, by describing and explaining typical stereotypes that exist in my country for decades. Again, those were not my beliefs or opinions, they are simply the public opinion. Thus, I posted the negative characteristics that these stereotypes convey to inform foreros, not to attack or upset any one.
> 
> I then said, speaking about my personal experiences, that unfortunately, most of the people that I have met from provincia do fit that stereotype. That is not bias, I am simply presenting a personal observation. You can call it bad luck, that perhaps I haven't met many others from provincia that don't fit the typical stereotype, you can call it anything you'd like Pollo.
> 
> I'm not saying that because I haven't met many people that don't fit that stereotype from provincia that I'm going to generalize all of them and always have that prejudice in mind. I know that people are different. Being biased is saying "I've giving up, I gave them a chance, but they're all the same." Never have I stated that. I said that despite the unfortunate constant experiences that I had, I still remain unbiased when meeting people from provincia because I know not all of them are the same.
> 
> By the way, I never said very very few of them are intelligent, capable and sober. I said that unfortunately, I have not met many people from provincia that don't fit that stereotype. Again, that's a personal observation, from personal experiences. Again Pollo, you can call it bad luck, perhaps it is, I am just commenting on my unfortunate experiences. By the simple fact that I had those experiences that doesn't conclude anything, because there are millions and millions of people from provincia, it could be that maybe I just met some bad apples and still haven't met many of the good ones. And I do believe that, that's why I remain neutral.
> 
> I never defended any of the public opinions. By simply stating my experiences that I've had that match the public opinion as well as others that don't, that doesn't mean that I am supporting anything. It's presenting, not supporting. To support a public opinion I would say, "I agree with the public opinion because...' But I haven't said that. Whenever I support something I do it bluntly and not in a subtle way. Neither of those occurred here.
> 
> You are absolutely correct, the purpose of this thread was to comment, and that is what I did. I didn't support anything, I simply informed about my experiences. I also informed about my beliefs and I said that I am not biased.
> 
> I don't believe I used "insulting language" Pollo. I haven't used any bad words, or perhaps I used words that are nuetral but you personally find them offensive. If that's the case, then you're the one that's chosing to interpret it as offensive. If you are upset about the "dog" part, I could easily change that to, pollo, bird, horse, giraffe, lion, etc. I was speaking figuratively. By the way, even Phryne admitted "to be going harsh" on me. He accused of being a biased porte~o-like person and even dared to say what my view of him is (puttin words in my mouth) and about how I treat people from provincia (putting actions in my life) without even knowing me at all. Whose being biased now?
> 
> Calmado pollito, no se me desplume.
> 
> Edher


----------



## Edher

Phryne said:
			
		

> Edher:
> 
> In my humble opinion, as fenixpollo said, you are indeed supporting the stereotypes. Even though you acknowledge that some people don’t fit these stereotypes, you still continue to state that (quote_)“unfortunately for the most part people do fit the stereotype”_ (unquote). Are you that sure you’re embracing them? Read below when you state that (quote_)“Of course I have met defe~os that are heavy drinkers, not well-educated, and the rest of stereotype of provinicianos, but I haven't met as many defe~os that fit that stereotype as I have provincianos”_ (unquote). There is a concept called the _outgroup homogeneity bias _which asserts that people see their own group as being more varied than people from other groups.
> 
> Additionally, there’s also a difference between what the collective believes and your own experience of things. You mention that you simply repeat the general public’s belief and, separately, what you have encountered. Funny enough, they both state the same thought. You agree with the general stereotypes regardless of the people that proved you wrong. Also, you claim to merely describe your observation, which means that your opinions are based on anecdotal events. That being the said, wouldn’t you think that it’s a little insulting to the Mexican foreros that are not from the DF?
> 
> Following the previous ideas, there is a huge difference between myths, stereotypes, general beliefs and how things really are. Indeed, people are culturally _different_ from one place to the other, but _how we perceive these differences (with all our biases and preconceptions) is what constructs a stereotype_. Biases come from many experiences: some personal and some shared (the mass media play a great role in this general construction of stereotypes), but in any case they are not free of prejudgments. For this reason, most times it’s a negative construction. In my opinion, and you have the right of disregard it, you are not unprejudiced at all. You should know this quite well as a biologist that any observation is biased to some degree, and even more if you’re not a scientist or a serious researcher on the subject.
> 
> As a note, if you think that comparing amounts of crime and deviance from provincias and city will make the stereotype be true, you missed the point. [And I want to believe that you assure that crime and violence is worse in the provinces because you read statistics about those issues and not because of possible misconceptions from the general belief].
> 
> Finally, if the hand that threw the stone is the general belief, then I will continue to bark at the stone for not questioning ideas that on top of not being necessarily accurate, they may also be insulting to some people.
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> María José



Hola Phryne,

       I did say "for the most part, people do fit the stereotype" and again, those are my experiences. Most of the people I have encountered from provincia do fit this stereotype. That isn't in any way supporting the public's opinion. That isn't in any way saying that everyone from provincia is the same. If you see it that way, that's because you want to. That isn't in any way, my opinion on things. Again Phryne, those are my observations. You're holding me responsible for the way people that I encountered act. I am simply reporting. Just because I'm reporting that doesn't mean I'm giving my opinion. I'm sure that not all people from provincia are like that. 

    That is correct, I presented the public's opinion and then I presented my experiences and observations. I never agreed with the general opinion about the stereotypes, that's you, once again, putting words in my mouth and drawing your own conclusions. The fact that they match that doesn't mean that I support it, I'm simply informing.

    I don't believe sharing my anecdotes is insulting because I didn't mean them to be. Why should anyone feel offended for somebody else's actions. In that case, if you feel offended, then you're the one choosing to be offended. 

Thank you for clarifying the differences, and segragating myth from stereotype, but I still choose to see the ideas that stereotypes convey as a myths because I know not everyone is the same just because they have the same origin.    

By the way, I love the way you subtly accused me of being biased, a double negative, "you are not unprejudiced" I found that amusing, sneaky, clever and facinating. 

"Any observation is biased to some degree" Well, any observation is biased to some degree only if you choose to be biased to some degree. And in fact, in science, they make you take a workshop and then an oath of "Honor in Science" to remain unbiased despite past experience because science searches for the truth and not proof to everyone's hypothesis correct.

I'm not saying that by comparing any facts of either city or provincia will prove anything because I'm not trying to prove anything out of that, that's why I didn't bring it up. This isn't a competition to see if cities are better than provinces, but it seems to me that that is how you're taking it. 

You'll bark at the stone for not questioning ideas? What ideas? 

Actually, the hand is that of the porte~os that gave you, Maria Jose, a hard time. 

Edher


----------



## Edher

asm said:
			
		

> Estimado paisano:
> 
> Solo dos comentarios, el primero tiene que ver con tu experiencia. Yo soy de la ciudad de Mexico y se lo que es la discriminacion en ambos sentidos (capitalinos criticando a los demas y los demas criticando a los capitalinos). Sin embargo solo añado que en mi experiencia he encontrado gente maravillosa, inteligente, responsable y todas las demas otras cosas que pueden descomponer los estereotipos. Esa gente maravillosa es del DF y de provincia, del campo y de la ciudad, primera generacion de mexicanos y descendientes de indigenas, vaya hasta extranjeros . Tambien he visto, lamentablemente, gente irresponsable, criminales, tomadores, etc. todo lo que entra en el esteretipo (y peor) y esas personas vienen de los mismos lugares que el grupo anterior. Yo no puedo distinguir un patron solo por ser o no capitalino.
> Le platicas a "pollo" que en tu experiencia has encontrado mas gente de provincia que "cae" en la defiinicion de la que no; para eso hay dos soluciones, la primera es cambiar de ambiente, quizas no has tenido suerte de encontrar gente "del otro monton", la segunda es que cambies tu patron de observacion, quizas llegues a ver que no son tan malos como el estereotipo que se ha mencionado. Te invito a que leas Mateo capitulo 7.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.- Phryne no es "he", es una NENA. Yo lo aprendi de la misma forma que tú; diciendo "he" -"him" etc hasta que me hicieron la observacion .
> 
> Saludos cordiales desde estados unidos, con un pie en KY y el corazon en Mexico.
> 
> PD *Todos* tenemos _algo_ de "bias"; como dijeron, el que este libre de prejuicios que tire la primera piedra (fue asi???)



Que tal compatriota,

    Vaya, pues que buena suerte la tuya de encontrar mas variedad en cuanto se trata de gente de provinicia. A mi, me gustaria decir lo mismo, y quiza con un poco de tiempo talvez logre conocer a mas de esa gente maravillosa que tu hablas. Espero que no pienses que simplemente porque estoy contando mis experiencias estoy llegando a una conclusion. 

Estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo, como habia dicho antes, lo mas probable es que me falta conocer mas "gente del otro monton." 

No se a que exactamente te refieras con la ultima pregunta en tu posdata pero estoy hablando de otro tipo de tiroteo de piedras. lol.

Edher


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## Phryne

Edher said:
			
		

> Hola Phryne,
> 
> I did say "for the most part, people do fit the stereotype" and again, those are my experiences. Most of the people I have encountered from provincia do fit this stereotype. That isn't in any way supporting the public's opinion. That isn't in any way saying that everyone from provincia is the same. If you see it that way, that's because you want to. That isn't in any way, my opinion on things. Again Phryne, those are my observations. You're holding me responsible for the way people that I encountered act. I am simply reporting. Just because I'm reporting that doesn't mean I'm giving my opinion. I'm sure that not all people from provincia are like that.
> 
> That is correct, I presented the public's opinion and then I presented my experiences and observations. I never agreed with the general opinion about the stereotypes, that's you, once again, putting words in my mouth and drawing your own conclusions. The fact that they match that doesn't mean that I support it, I'm simply informing.
> 
> I don't believe sharing my anecdotes is insulting because I didn't mean them to be. Why should anyone feel offended for somebody else's actions. In that case, if you feel offended, then you're the one choosing to be offended.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying the differences, and segragating myth from stereotype, but I still choose to see the ideas that stereotypes convey as a myths because I know not everyone is the same just because they have the same origin.
> 
> By the way, I love the way you subtly accused me of being biased, a double negative, "you are not unprejudiced" I found that amusing, sneaky, clever and facinating.
> 
> "Any observation is biased to some degree" Well, any observation is biased to some degree only if you choose to be biased to some degree. And in fact, in science, they make you take a workshop and then an oath of "Honor in Science" to remain unbiased despite past experience because science searches for the truth and not proof to everyone's hypothesis correct.
> 
> I'm not saying that by comparing any facts of either city or provincia will prove anything because I'm not trying to prove anything out of that, that's why I didn't bring it up. This isn't a competition to see if cities are better than provinces, but it seems to me that that is how you're taking it.
> 
> You'll bark at the stone for not questioning ideas? What ideas?
> 
> Actually, the hand is that of the porte~os that gave you, Maria Jose, a hard time.
> 
> Edher


 Hola Edher.

Bueno, veo que no sólo no nos vamos a poner de acuerdo sino que además no creo que te des cuenta de lo que te estoy queriendo decir, por lo cual voy a (intentar) dar por terminada mi participacion acá. Sólo quería agregar dos cositas que no son el tema en sí. 

Tal vez en biología Uds. puedan dar un juramento de honor sobre dejar de la subjetividad de lado (aunque no estoy tan segura de que la gente pueda estar 100% libre de prejuicios). Por supuesto que al hablar de células, organismos, etc, la biología da lugar a que el investigador tenga una relación mucho mas neutral con su objeto de estudio. Pero hete aquí que en la ciencias sociales no es así. Los prejuicios se llevan con el investigador y los investigadores son muy concientes de este hecho. Tanto la biología como su "objetividad" es irrelevante en esta charla. No te olvides que en acá estamos hablando de estereotipos y prejuicios, no de células.  De última si pensás que un investigador social (antropólogo, sociólogo, etc) tiene muy en cuenta que sus suspuestos básicos subyacentes (prejuicios, experiencias personales, puntos de vista, etc.) surgen al estudiar temas como los esteretipos sociales, imaginate que simples mortales "no preparados" en el tema, tienen mucho menos control de su subjetividad. Y este fenómeno incluye observaciones, que en el caso del lego, ni siquiera son esquematizadas, controladas, o hechas con cierto rigor para eliminar la mayor cantidad de prejuicios posibles. Ojo, no quiero decir que un simple mortal no pueda su opinión respecto a cualquier tema; sólo quiero marcar que tenemos que ser concientes que no podemos ser totalmente objetivos como vos decías.

En segundo lugar, yo no tengo problemas ni con los porteños ni con ningún otro argentino, no te confundas. En Argentina hay centralismo, y hay muchos estereotipos relacionados a este fenómeno, pero nunca de los nuncas, oíme bien, oí a un porteño decir que la gente del interior del país era ignorante, bebedora, vaga, violenta, bruta, etc. Yo describí bien como yo entiendo la situación en mi primer mensaje, y si leés bien no usé adjetivos agraviantes, porque los prejuicios que hay no llegan a tal nivel, ni en el peor de los casos. A mí simplemente me dolió ver que en países como México la discriminación podía ser tan intensa. Lamentablemente no pude resistir contestar porque me pareció un agravio hacia tus compatriotas mexicanos. Y tal vez ese fue mi error, querer defender causas ajenas y a su vez, como decía una vieja profesora mía, pelearme con fantasmas, es decir, fuerzas que nos superan como lo es el imaginario colectivo. 

saludos


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## asm

Me refiero a la frase biblica "quien este libre de piedra que arroje la primera piedra." Creo que en este caso piedra y prejuicio pueden ser sinonimos.

Estoy convencido que ni el mas santo de los santos, ni el mas puro de los puros, ni el mas ingenuo entre los ingenuos, esta libre de dos cosas: algo de prejuicio y algo en lo que le puedan culpar. Todos tenemos lo nuestro 




			
				Edher said:
			
		

> Que tal compatriota,
> 
> Vaya, pues que buena suerte la tuya de encontrar mas variedad en cuanto se trata de gente de provinicia. A mi, me gustaria decir lo mismo, y quiza con un poco de tiempo talvez logre conocer a mas de esa gente maravillosa que tu hablas. Espero que no pienses que simplemente porque estoy contando mis experiencias estoy llegando a una conclusion.
> 
> Estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo, como habia dicho antes, lo mas probable es que me falta conocer mas "gente del otro monton."
> 
> No se a que exactamente te refieras con la ultima pregunta en tu posdata pero estoy hablando de otro tipo de tiroteo de piedras. lol.
> 
> Edher


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## Vanda

In Brazil we have , let's say, prejudice inside our own states and of other states.
For example, I live in the capital of my state and people living here like to mention those from the countryside/interior as "caipira" (hilly Bill(?)) - although most of those living in the capital *are* (or their parents are) from the countryside. 
And concerning other states there's a humorous prejudice between people from my state and those of the state of Rio de Janeiro, and between people from Rio de Janeiro and those from the state of Sao Paulo, just to mention some. 
As we are continental, this situation multiplies among all the other states, mainly those neighboring each other. In my opinion, most of this prejudice is just a joke for the folks involved.
And there's a classical border situation between Brazilians and Argentinians.
Brazilians call Argentinians as "hermanos", but as far as soccer is concerned, 
well, that is another story, no brotherhood at all, they are heart enemies. What is funny about that is that nowadays we have many Argentinians playing at Brazilian teams. 
In the end, I think it has more to do to our joie de vivre and making fun of ourselves than to prejudice itself. At least, I'd like to believe in that.


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## cuchuflete

Two minor points...

Vandinha...sem você quiser dizer caipira no sentido de matuto...that's hillbilly in AE.

Also, I've travelled a bit in Mexico, and my experience is vastly different from Edher's observations. I've found 'country people' to be very courteous, mostly well-spoken, and gracious, as well as hard working. In the DF, I've found the variety one would expect in any city with a huge population, however most people I met there were courteous, well-spoken, gracious, and hard working. The city people also displayed less patience, and seemed more tense, pressured, and generally stressed out.

In short, I saw exactly the same differences in Mexico that I find in the U.S. Small city and rural life moves at a different, often more considerate, pace than that of the largest cities. My prejudice? 

Now, one might argue that some of these people were changing their basic character and behavior for a foreigner, but that's pretty doubtful. I suspect that at times we see what we are expecting to see.

There are two sides to every argument, and then.........there's the truth.

May we find it together.

Un saludo,
Cuchu


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