# si dederis Martem, Mulciber es, Baraba



## A Gargantua

Hello. I've come across the following epigram:

Et Venus est uxor et tu claudusque faberque
-----Si dederis Martem, Mulciber es, Baraba.

Baraba is the address, i don't know who he/she is. I reckon the first line means Both Venus is your wife, and you are a lame craftsman. The second line is what is confusing me. I'd be greatful for any help. Thank you,
A Gargantua


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## alexacohen

Can you give us the source?

I'm lost with the "Baraba" name.


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## A Gargantua

Yup, it's Marullus, a 15th century exile from Constantinople.


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## Cagey

Re: Baraba

These are a people who live on the Russian steppes.  They are associated with the ancient Scythians.  I can't speak to the accuracy of this association, but I suspect that this name is used here as an allusion to at least one of two traditions Herodotus (the Greek historian) reports about steppe dwellers.

I. Because Scythians plundered a temple of Aphrodite (=Venus) some of them have a disease makes them 'unmanly', (Some modern translations render this 'hermaphorditism'.) (Book 1, ch. 105).

II. The Messagatae, another people inhabiting the steppes, have the custom of sharing their wives (sexually) with friends. According to Herodotus, some Greeks wrongly associate this custom with the Scythians. (Book 1. ch. 216).

Whether or not the poet read Herodotus, I suspect that some version of these traditions persisted and made _Baraba_ a slur suitable to this context.

(I assume we take the couplet as an allusion to the Mars' cuckolding of Venus' husband, the lame blacksmith, Vulcan.)

Does this seem appropriate to the context in which you saw it?


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## alexacohen

My Middle Ages Latin is, to say the least, staggering.

"If you gave her to Mars, Vulcan you are a Scythian"?
(Wild shot)


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## Cagey

alexacohen said:


> My Middle Ages Latin is, to say the least, staggering.
> 
> "If you gave her to Mars, Vulcan you are a Scythian"?
> (Wild shot)



Mine staggers likewise, which is why I am grateful for input from someone else.

I understand the line as you do, hoping that the accusative "Martem" where classical Latin would expect a dative is a characteristic of later Latin.

Also: Mulciber, as a name for Vulcan, means "softener", and refers to the blacksmith's use of heat to soften metal.  In this context, I suspect a nastier association.


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## A Gargantua

Hello again,

Thank you for the replies. Sorry not to have replied sooner. I don't think that Baraba has anything to do with steppe people, though I'm not sure-having said that, it may well explain the name once I find out who it refers to-though i'm not too sure how i'll go about doing that. The more i think about it, the more i'm inclined to consider it to just be a friend of the poet's that I don't know about. 
Interesting that later Latin sometimes uses acc. for dat. there haven't been any other examples so far, unfortunately. How about reading the last like as: 'If you gave a Mars to her (i.e your wife), you'd be [truly] Mulciber. 
Little bit concerned about it being 'Mulciber _es' _since i've translated it as you'd be-does this seem likely?
That Mulciber means the 'softener' is a tantalising touch, thank you for that.


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## Cagey

Hello,

Please don't let me confuse you.  My suggestion that accusative might be used for an indirect object is just speculation. I know that case use weakened in later Latin, but I am often mistaken regarding a specific instance.  Your translation "gave Mars [to her]" is reasonable, and it does preserve the grammar.  

I would be inclined to translate "es" as a present indicative (you are), being the more conservative choice.  As I say, I have no particular confidence in my ability to translate later Latin.


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## alexacohen

A Gargantua said:


> How about reading the last like as: 'If you gave a Mars to her (i.e your wife), you'd be [truly] Mulciber.
> Little bit concerned about it being 'Mulciber _es' _since i've translated it as you'd be-does this seem likely?


 
Deep waters. Later Latin is not my forte. 
I've risked enough already!


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## modus.irrealis

I've been reading some Medieval Latin lately and I've noticed it's fairly common to use the present as a future. Perhaps it's a future if-then clause.

About the accusative, what about taking _do_ in the sense of "allow, permit" to get something like "If you allow Mars, you will be Mulciber"? The dictionary lists this meaning as rare except when used impersonally, but I thought I'd throw it out as a possibility.


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## A Gargantua

Hello.

Cheers for the suggestion about the present for future, i think that's helpful. Interesting about the other meaning of do-i think it's a nice translation.
A Gargantua


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## Outsider

I wouldn't even call 15th century Latin "medieval" or "Late". Whoever wrote that was not a native speaker of the language.

Could Baraba be a variation of Barabbas, a famous character of the New Testament?


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## alexacohen

Outsider said:


> I wouldn't even call 15th century Latin "medieval" or "Late". Whoever wrote that was not a native speaker of the language.
> 
> Could Baraba be a variation of Barabbas, a famous character of the New Testament?


 
I used Late, Medieval, for want of better words, Outsider. 

I haven't been able to locate Baraba.


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## A Gargantua

Outsider, thank you for the suggestion, but the content of the passage and the context seem to suggest that it doesn't refer to Barrabas.
I suppose it's Latin of the Renaissance.
A Gargantua.


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