# Nouns on пол- (agreement)



## Xavier61

*Mod: Moved from The Easy Part / The Hard Part*

 "первые" is plural, but "полдела" is neuter singular?  And how would it agree with a verb?
a) "Первые полдела будут легки"
b) "Первые полдела будет легко"


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## Maroseika

Nouns on пол- in Nominative and Accusiative agree with adjectives in Plural and with verbs in Plural or in Neutral:
Первые полгода будут самыми трудными.
На похороны пришли/пришло полгорода.
Полстраны живут/живет в бедности.
Он выпил залпом добрые полбутылки.


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## Rosett

Xavier61 said:


> "первые" is plural, but "полдела" is neuter singular?  And how would it agree with a verb?
> a) "Первые полдела будут легки"
> b) "Первые полдела будет легко"


a) "Первые полдела будут л*ё*гки*ми*"
b) incorrect, but can be fixed as if in the following:
"Сделать первые полдела будет легко"

Other simple fractions (треть, четверть, десятая, сотая etc) are regular.


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## Xavier61

And how would be the agreement in other cases:genitive, dative, etc.?


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## Awwal12

Xavier61 said:


> And how would be the agreement in other cases:genitive, dative, etc.?


Declining compound nouns beginning in пол- is strongly avoided in Russian (not meaning they're undeclinable).  So in cases other than nominative and accusative you better simply rephrase it, I am afraid.


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## Xavier61

Awwal12 said:


> Declining compound nouns beginning in пол- is strongly avoided in Russian (not meaning they're undeclinable).  So in cases other than nominative and accusative you better simply rephrase it, I am afraid.


 Do you mean that "после полуночи" is wrong?
How is that? We use words in полу*ие, as "полугодие" instead of "полгода"? So, a sentence as  в течение второго полугода его жизни sounds odd?


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## Saley

Xavier61 said:


> Do you mean that "после полуночи" is wrong?


_После полу́ночи_ is right, because in the nominative it is _по́лночь_ ‘midnight’ (a point in time), not _полно́чи_ ‘half a night’ (a period of time).

What Awwal12 said refers to compounds where _пол-_ acts like a numeral and the second part of the compound is in the genitive, e.g. _полго́рода_, _полмину́ты_, _полверда́_.

If the second part is in the nominative when the entire compound is in the nominative, it is declined regularly, e.g. _по́лдень_, _по́лночь_ (with _пол-_), _полукру́г_, _полусфе́ра_, _полуша́рие_ (with _полу-_).


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## Awwal12

Xavier61 said:


> Do you mean that "после полуночи" is wrong?


Oh no, "после полуночи" is perfectly fine. For one good reason: here we have the word "по́лночь" (and not "полно́чи"), with its own solid meaning ("midnight", not "half a night") and its own formation model (unproductive in modern Russian), which is difficult to consider "compound".  So it's etirely another matter.

Speaking about more or less stable compounds which designate time intervals (полдня, полгода etc.) I can probably imagine their genitive forms. As for dative, prepositional or instrumental, especially in agreement with some attributives?.. I'd better not experiment.


Xavier61 said:


> We use words in полу*ие, as "полугодие" instead of "полгода"?


Such models are unproductive (there are no such words as "полугородие" or "полузалие", for Christ's sake ), and even полугодие may provide unnecessary associations and implications (it's used mostly in formal time measuring - schooling, business, that sort of things). You just sort of decompose these compunds: первые полгода -> о первой половине года, полгорода говорило об этом -> я знаком с доброй половиной города, etc.


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## Particle

Xavier61 said:


> "первые" is plural, but "полдела" is neuter singular?  And how would it agree with a verb?
> a) "Первые полдела будут легки"
> b) "Первые полдела будет легко"



You wrote: "полдела" is neuter singular
Pay attention that “полдела” is a reduction from “половина дела”, or “половины дел”. In our case it is “половины дел” because “первые” is plural.

a) "Первые полдела будут легки" = “Первые половины дел будут легки” = The first part of deals will always be easy.

“будут легки” is the predicate.

“легки” is the short adjective, plural.

As written (by Rosset), you can use the full adjective “лёгкими”.
"Первые полдела будут легкими" = “Первые половины дел будут легкими”

b) "Первые полдела будет легко" = "Первую половину дела будет (сделать/выполнить/обеспечить) легко"

“будет”, or “будет + infinitive” is the predicate here.

“легко” is an adverb.


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## Sobakus

Particle said:


> "Первые полдела будут легки" = “Первые половины дела будут легки”
> "Первые полдела будет легко" = "Первые половины дела будет (сделать/выполнить/обеспечить) легко"


Someone was very sleepy when writing this. "Первые полдела" = "первая половина дела_"_. "Первые половины дела" makes absolutely no sense in Russian.


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## Particle

Sorry, I was really sleepy. I have edited.


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## Saley

Particle said:


> Pay attention that “полдела” is a reduction from “половина дела”, or “половины дел”. In our case it is “половины дел” because “первые” is plural.


I disagree that _пол<чего-то>_ can be plural and stand for _половины_nom.pl _<чего-то>_. We can’t say _*первый/*первая/*первое полде́ла_, so the plurality of the adjective _первые_ doesn’t indicate that _полдела_ is plural.

There’s nothing special in agreement with words that start with _пол-_ compared to other numeral + noun phrases:
_*Эти* пять (с половиной) часо́в *тянулись* це́лую вечность.
*Эти* три (с половиной) часа́ *прошли* в напряжённом ожидании.
*Эти* полтора́ часа́ *были проведены* с пользой.
*Эти* полчаса́ *пролетели* незаметно._​but
_*Этот* час *запомнится* мне надолго._​


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## Particle

Saley said:


> I disagree that _пол<чего-то>_ can be plural and stand for _половины_nom.pl _<чего-то>_.



This is true in General, but why can't it be in a) OP?

 Let’s take your examples:
*Эти*_ полтора́ часа́ *были проведены* с пользой.
*Эти* полчаса́ *пролетели* незаметно._
It's definitely the case b) in the OP.

They will look from the perspective of a) OP as:
Первые полтора часа будут полезны.
Первые полчаса будут незаметны.

Can you answer on the questions:
Эти первые полтора часа будут полезны, или каждые/все первые полтора часа будут полезны?
Эти первые полчаса будут незаметны, или каждые/все первые полчаса будут незаметны?

I can not say that it is singular or plural in the case of a) OP. I need context.


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## Saley

_Эти_ ... vs. _каждые_ ... is hardly a singular/plural opposition.

With the implied numeral ‘one’, even in the sense of ‘every’ the noun phrase is singular: e.g. _каджый (первый) час_ ‘every (first) hour’.

Since, with other numerals too, there’s no formal difference between phrases with _эти_ and _каждые_, I don’t see any justification to consider them underlyingly singular and plural respectively.


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## Awwal12

Heheh.
Etymologically, полдела, полгорода etc. should all have been masculine singular (полъ дѣла, полоу дѣла, съ поломъ дѣла etc.; полъ города, безъ пола города etc.). But it seems after these phrases turned into solid words something terrible happened to them. 
"Полдела (было) сделано" sounds right and is quite literate, "полдела сделаны" is simply ungrammatical. Still, "первое полдела" is, surprisingly, outright impossible (having 1 relevant hit in Google). "Первые полдела" are absent in the Russian corpus but yet provide 33 entries in Google (this thread included). The corpus, in fact, doesn't seem to contain any entries for "полдела" with an attributive in any form (!) whatsoever. Okay, maybe it's about the semantics, but anyway, we already can see a clear asymmetry between agreement with an attributive and a predicate (some analogy at work?).
"Полгода" (as a noun) clearly behaves like plural, no specific problems with it. The same is true for "полчаса", "полмесяца", "полвека" etc. It seems that "полпути", "полкилометра", "полметра" (etc.) also belong to this group.
"Полгорода" is, as noted, used ambiguously with verbs (which is not very surprising, taking the semantics into account), still with some preference towards neuter singular. However, "эти полгорода" give 133 results in Google (mostly relevant), while "это полгорода" gives 80 totally irrelevant results and, in my humble opinion, sounds awful (when "это" is an attributive, of course).

Summarizing:
- this type of nouns can be safely used with predicates and attributives when it means time and spatial intervals. The genitive forms start in полу- and have the same genitive enging (больше полугода, больше получаса, нет и полуметра etc.), but they don't take attributives very well. Be advised that in colloquial speech the genitive forms beginning in пол- instead of полу- may also emerge. Other grammatical cases should be avoided anyway.
- as for the rest nouns of this kind, avoid attaching to them an attributive and a predicate in the same time. Better avoid attaching an attributive (demonstratives insluded) at all. Putting the predicate in the neuter singular form is mostly safe. Declining is a no-go. If you have a choice, better stick to "половина дела", "половина города" etc.
- generally speaking, it's a full mess.


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## Particle

Д. Э. Розенталь, "РЯ на отлично. Стилистика и культура речи", М., 2009. С. 175:

При подлежащем, выраженном сложным существительным, первой частью которого является числительное пол- (полчаса, полгода и т. п.), сказуемое обычно ставится в форме единственного числа, а в прошедшем времени - среднего рода: полчаса пройдет; полгода пролетело; полгорода участвовало в празднествах. Однако если при словах с пол- имеется определение в форме именительного падежа множественного числа, то и сказуемое ставится в форме множественного числа: Остальные полдома уцелели от пожара; Полчаса, проведенные в его обществе, доставили нам большое удовольствие. 

The predicate is usually singular if the subject has the numeral “пол” in the first part. “Полчаса пройдет. Полгода пролетит.”

The predicate has the form of a neuter singular in the past tense with this subject. “Полгода пролетело; Полгорода участвовало в празднествах”

However, the predicate will be plural if the words with "пол" have an attributive in the nominative, plural. “Остальные полдома уцелели от пожара. Полчаса, проведенные в его обществе, доставили нам большое удовольствие. Первые полдела будут легки”.  



Saley said:


> _Эти_ ... vs. _каждые_ ... is hardly a singular/plural opposition.
> 
> With the implied numeral ‘one’, even in the sense of ‘every’ the noun phrase is singular: e.g. _каджый (первый) час_ ‘every (first) hour’.



Да, здесь единственное число.

Я пытался сказать другое. (Мой убогий английский!)
Я пытался сказать, что во фразе а) OP есть неопределённость. Без контекста непонятно: первые полдела будут легки в конкретном деле, или в каждом/во всех.
Если написать половина/половины, то неопределённость исчезает:
Первая половина дела будет легка.
Первые половины дел будут легки.


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## Awwal12

Particle said:


> Первая половина дела будет легка.
> Первые половины дел будут легки.


Боюсь, вторая фраза звучит по-русски чрезвычайно коряво.


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