# vel exuviae triumphans



## Scholiast

Salvete omnes

One of the oldest regiments in the British army, the Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey), has this motto:

_pristinae virtutis memor vel exuviae triumphans
_
(http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/index.shtml)

I am composing a funeral oration for a veteran, a fellow-parishioner at my parish church. Of course I understand "Mindful of ancient courage", and the general sense of _exuviae triumphans_ ("triumphant even in defeat") is clear, but can anyone please explain the syntax, or suggest a source whence this motto might have been found?

Σ


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## Schimmelreiter

Literally: _tr__iumphant even as booty (exuviae, -arum)
_


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## XiaoRoel

> pristinae memor virtutis vel *exuviae (exuuiarum) triumphans


It is poorly constructed. _Exuviae _is a "pluralia tantum" and the slogan is suffix-e in the nominative (plural) and this makes no sense. What they did was invent a singular *_exuvia _behind this way genitive *exuviae, complement of _triumphans_. The right thing would _exuuiarum triumphans_. _Exuviae _designated body offal and figuratively destruction left after the war


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## asanga

This 1849 newspaper article gives the moto _pristinae virtutis memor, vel exuviae triumphant_ translated as "mindful of ancient valour---even the offshoots triumph", so it appears _triumphans _is a hypercorrection for _triumphant_, wrongly reading it as an English adjective rather than a Latin finite verb:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2965530

Apparently the moto was given to commemorate the regiment's heroic defence of Tongeren in 1703:



> In April 1703 the Queens and a Dutch Regiment, Van Elst's, were quartered in the small Fortified town of Tongres, near Liege, where, on 10 May they were attacked by an army of 40,000 French whose object was to destroy the army of Marlborough's ally, the Dutch Marshal Overkirk, while his units were dispersed in the Maestricht area. The French Marshal Bouffiers decided to deal with Tongres first, but by fighting continuously for 28 hours before being compelled to surrender, the Queen's and Van Elst's gained time for Overkirk to concentrate in a defensive position. and having failed to gain surprise. Bouffiers abandoned his plan. For this action at Tongres The Queen's were awarded the title 'Royal' and the mottos 'Pristinae Virtutis Memor'  _(Mindful of former glory)_ and 'Vel Exuviae Triumphant' _(Victorious even in adversity)_ they became prisoners of war but Marlborough negotiated their release 3 months later, and they were then sent to the area of operations in Spain.



http://www.1queens.com/1702-1748.html

As the regiment was captured and held prisoner by the French for 3 months, _exuviae _must refer to the soldiers themselves, metaphorically taken as _spolia/praedae_: "although captured, they triumph." A quick search of perseus doesn't yield a classical source.


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## wandle

From the above information, the intended sense must be 'triumphant even as the captured remnants [of their unit]'.

The Latin does not work, though: Lewis and Short show that *exuviae* always means something stripped or taken from the body (clothes, weapons, hair, skin); and requiring the plural noun _*exuviae*_ to stand in apposition to the implied singular subject seems awkward.


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## Scholiast

Salvete iterum

My thanks to all who have expressed interest in this,especially to asanga for his (her?) detailed research on the origins of the motto. Of course (_pace_ Schimmelreiter and Xiao Roel) I knew what _exuviae_ meant. And wandle, 





> requiring the plural noun _*exuviae*_ to stand in apposition to the implied singular subject seems awkward


, this was precisely the reason for my perplexity.

It may not be wonderful Latin, but I am now convinced that _exuviae_ here is indeed a nominative plur., and that someone in was using the 1703 edition of Google Translate to render "triumphant [or defiant] even when taken as spoil" - and probably did not recognise the inconcinnity between the plural _exuviae_ and the singular _triumphans_.

And of course there are numerous concepts in Latin which are grammatically plural but conceptually singular, _exuviae_ among them, but also e.g. _castra_, _divitiae_, _res novae_. But that would lead to another thread...

Thanks all round,

Σ


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## Schimmelreiter

Pace Scholiast , the numerical congruence is with the elliptical "cohors" for Queen's Royal Regiment. Had the Regiment excelled in Latin as it did in combat, it would, however, have thought of itself as plural: _pristinae virtutis memores vel exuviae triumphantes_


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## relativamente

vel usualy is translated as "or" rather then even, and also  "or rather"
I think here exuviae although it is a pural is thought poetically as a singular.


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## wandle

Schimmelreiter said:


> Pace Scholiast , the numerical congruence is with the elliptical "cohors" for Queen's Royal Regiment. Had the Regiment excelled in Latin as it did in combat, it would, however, have thought of itself as plural: _pristinae virtutis memores vel exuviae triumphantes_


It seems to me that the singular more probably represents the individual thought of as representative of the regiment. That certainly makes good sense of _*pristinae virtutis memor*_, which would not disgrace Cicero. 'Mindful of our original courage' expresses an idea which both commemorates the former and motivates the present members of the regiment.

The unfortunate second part seems to have been added by, shall we say, a less good scholar.


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## asanga

I'm a little confused by all the confusion about number: as mentioned in my first post, it seems the correct form of the motto is _vel exuvae triumphan*t*_, not _triumphan*s, *_and the 3rd person plural present active indicative agrees perfectly with nom. plural _exuviae_. The 1849 newspaper's translation "even the offshoots triumph" clearly reads _triumphant _as a finite verb, and not a present active participle. The reading _triumphant _is also supported by the entrance grille of the regiment's chapel in Guildford Cathedral:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonhw/2761412042/sizes/l/

Lewis & Short does list _vel _as an instensifying particle; the example from Plautus Si arte poteris accubare. ---_ Vel inter cuneos ferreos _is quite similar.

I don't think 2nd motto was lifted from Caesar or Sallust (who both use variations of _pristinae virtutis memor_), but whatever officer came up with it didn't entirely fail his Latin composition class at Eton.


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## wandle

asanga said:


> The reading triumphant is also supported by the entrance grille of the regiment's chapel in Guildford Cathedral:


That image does not in fact support the topic phrase. It shows _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ as a complete motto on its own.
It does not support either the phrase offered originally in post 1, _*pristinae virtutis memor vel exuviae triumphans*_, or the revised version suggested in post 7,  _*pristinae virtutis memor vel exuviae triumphantes*_.

If we take _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ on its own, that would never have passed muster in my prose class, I am afraid. _*Exuviae*_, according to L&S, only means 'things stripped or taken from the body', be it clothes, weapons, skin, hair etc. Toenail clippings would fit the bill: captured soldiers, however, would not. 

However, perhaps we should exercise some poetic or transcultural licence and try to take *exuviae* not in a concrete, but in a generalised sense.  Well, in that case it means 'off-strippings'. With the best will in the world, it cannot be made less specific than that (as long as we wish to remain in touching distance of Latin). Thus the best sense we could derive from _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ would be 'even as off-strippings they triumph'. This does not make sense in itself, nor does it represent the idea that captured soldiers maintain their honour or virtue even in defeat. All we can say for it is that it represents a bold, though failed, attempt at the latter meaning.

At a funeral service or a veterans' gathering, we should of course maintain a polite pretence that it means what it is supposed to mean.


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## Schimmelreiter

vel exuviae triumphant 

Even our weapons and other equipment which our seeming conqueror has taken away from us triumph over him.


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## wandle

Schimmelreiter said:


> vel exuviae triumphant
> 
> Even our weapons and other equipment which our seeming conqueror has taken away from us triumph over him.


How, I wonder? Do our muskets loyally fire backwards when he tries to use them?


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## asanga

wandle said:


> That image does not in fact support the topic phrase. It shows _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ as a complete motto on its own.
> It does not support either the phrase offered originally in post 1, _*pristinae virtutis memor vel exuviae triumphans*_, or the revised version suggested in post 7,  _*pristinae virtutis memor vel exuviae triumphantes*_.



All the regimental history websites, including the one linked in the OP, agree that the two phrases are in fact separate mottos. 


> If we take _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ on its own, that would never have passed muster in my prose class, I am afraid. _*Exuviae*_, according to L&S, only means 'things stripped or taken from the body', be it clothes, weapons, skin, hair etc. Toenail clippings would fit the bill: captured soldiers, however, would not.
> 
> However, perhaps we should exercise some poetic or transcultural licence and try to take *exuviae* not in a concrete, but in a generalised sense.  Well, in that case it means 'off-strippings'. With the best will in the world, it cannot be made less specific than that (as long as we wish to remain in touching distance of Latin). Thus the best sense we could derive from _*vel exuviae triumphant*_ would be 'even as off-strippings they triumph'. This does not make sense in itself, nor does it represent the idea that captured soldiers maintain their honour or virtue even in defeat. All we can say for it is that it represents a bold, though failed, attempt at the latter meaning.



The main body of the British and Dutch allied force was scattered around Maastricht; the delaying action by the regiment at Tongeren saved the army as a whole, at the cost of the capture of its offshoot. It doesn't seem too far-fetched to describe these captured soldiers poetically as the _exuviae _of the Duke of Marlborough's army, even if this isn't licensed by classical usage. 

But if you insist on a literal reading: perhaps an officer,  rushing to the relief of the regiment at Tongeren, but finding only their abandoned arms and supplies as witnesses to their victorious defeat, was moved to declare "_vel exuviae triumphant!_" I can imagine Livy recounting a story of that sort to illustrate the _pristina virtus_ of the early Republic.


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## wandle

It is certainly a relief to hear that they are separate mottoes.


asanga said:


> the delaying action by the regiment at Tongeren saved the army as a whole, at the cost of the capture of its offshoot.


This and the suggested translation 'even the offshoots triumph' seem to be saying that the soldiers of the Queen's Royal regiment were offshoots of the main force, and that that is what *exuviae* is supposed to mean. I can only say that _*exuviae*_ does not bear that meaning. An offshoot is a living extension of an organism. It is not just that such a sense is not literal, or not licensed by classical usage: it is simply unconnected with the meaning of the word. *exuviae* does not represent people, plants or other organisms, literal or metaphorical.


> perhaps an officer, rushing to the relief of the regiment at Tongeren, but finding only their abandoned arms and supplies as witnesses to their victorious defeat, was moved to declare "vel exuviae triumphant!"


In this case, even if we allow that abandoned arms and supplies are _*exuviae*_ (when applied to weapons etc., it typically means those taken away as spoils), the sense will not match the idea that the captured troops had triumphed in defeat. The motto should be honouring the men, not their abandoned equipment.

The idea to be expressed is that the men who had been taken prisoner were in reality the victors, as they had defeated the enemy's purpose. 
*victi sed victores * (Defeated, but victorious) or _*etiam capti vicerunt*_ (Even though captured, they conquered) would do it.

However, as mentioned, no one would wish to raise the point at a funeral service.


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## relativamente

I think exuviae could remember of the death, and this motto could be compared with other motoes  or combat screams that some special elite soldiers use like Spanish Legionarios that say "viva la muerte" "soy el novio de la muerte" and so on.
If you search in google images exuviae you will confirm this.


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