# Drunk men: classy or not?



## Wil_the_terrible

In a thread called "women in bars", a guy said "A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy", so, we must assume that a man in a bar all by himself is classy and sophisticated. Quite funny, a drunk man is classy, a drunk woman, well...not so classy. What do you think?


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## shoobydoowap

I doubt anyone would think a drunk man is classy.


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## Athaulf

Drunkenness as such is definitely not seen as classy anywhere I've ever been.  However, in both Europe and North America (and, I strongly suspect, pretty much any other place), people tend to look more unfavorably on drunken women than drunken men. Most people are much more judgmental and see it as a more serious issue when they see women drinking excessively.  

While such views are partly a consequence of obvious cultural prejudices, they also have a certain rational basis. A drunken woman in a public place obviously exposes herself to much greater dangers than a drunken man.


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## Víctor Pérez

I think that we all will agree that a drunk man is not classy at all, *Wil*. 
Is just sad, as you know.


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## Paparaciii

Drunk man = classy??? Never. Forget it. Only peasants get drunk.
Although the judgement would be much more rough on a drunk woman than man.


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## alexacohen

Athaulf said:


> Drunkenness as such is definitely not seen as classy anywhere I've ever been.  However, in both Europe and North America (and, I strongly suspect, pretty much any other place), people tend to look more unfavorably on drunken women than drunken men. Most people are much more judgmental and see it as a more serious issue when they see women drinking excessively.
> 
> While such views are partly a consequence of obvious cultural prejudices, they also have a certain rational basis. A drunken woman in a public place obviously exposes herself to much greater dangers than a drunken man.


 
You're absolutely right, Athaulf.


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## jonquiliser

alexacohen said:


> Drunkenness as such is definitely not seen as classy anywhere I've ever been.  However, in both Europe and North America (and, I strongly suspect, pretty much any other place), people tend to look more unfavorably on drunken women than drunken men. Most people are much more judgmental and see it as a more serious issue when they see women drinking excessively.
> 
> While such views are partly a consequence of obvious cultural prejudices, they also have a certain rational basis. A drunken woman in a public place obviously exposes herself to much greater dangers than a drunken man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right, Athaulf.
Click to expand...


Hmm... well, it's not women who expose themselves to danger, it is, typically, men who expose them do danger. That's not classy, nor cool, nor acceptable, nor just-a-matter-or-fact-of-life. 

Men who drink are not classy, obviously, nor is it funny to see men completedly wasted harassing women. (Absence of alcohol doesn't make the scene better.)


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## estefanos

Wil_the_terrible said:


> "A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy" . . . . so, we must assume that a man in a bar all by himself is classy and sophisticated.



I don't mean to offend, but I believe the comment about women in bars has nothing to do with drunkenness, nor with an assumption that men in bars are in some way classy.  Instead, I think it may have to do with history.

A hundred years or so ago, in the US, bars were a primarily male domain, and women who were present were often part of the entertainment, i.e., prostitutes.  That caused a cultural predudice that persists, and which is, I think, perhaps the basis of the original quote.

In many western states, it was illegal for single women to enter a bar until after World War II.  In California, I was told, a woman could enter a bar alone, but had to sit at a table -- not the bar itself.  The assumption was that a single woman sitting at the bar was a hooker.  

In othe words, I think the bias shown in the original quote has to do with sex, and not with alcohol, although -- admitedly -- they often do seem to go hand in hand.


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## don maico

Paparaciii said:


> Drunk man = classy??? Never. Forget it. Only peasants get drunk.
> Although the judgement would be much more rough on a drunk woman than man.


In which case there must a be great many peasants living in the UK where drinking and getting drunk isnt frowned so much as in other countries


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## alexacohen

jonquiliser said:


> Hmm... well, it's not women who expose themselves to danger, it is, typically, men who expose them do danger. That's not classy, nor cool, nor acceptable, nor just-a-matter-or-fact-of-life.
> Men who drink are not classy, obviously, nor is it funny to see men completedly wasted harassing women. (Absence of alcohol doesn't make the scene better.)


 
Jonquil, I cannot speak for Athaulf. But men are not (usually) raped. Women are. It's sad, it's unfair, it's a crime, but it's true. And it is so much easier to take advantage of a drunken woman.
I volunteer for an association which gives psychological care to raped women. There are far too many cases of women raped when they were drunk.
Please note that I'm not justifying this in any way. It is what I see, and no more.


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## Victoria32

Wil_the_terrible said:


> In a thread called "women in bars", a guy said "A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy", so, we must assume that a man in a bar all by himself is classy and sophisticated. Quite funny, a drunk man is classy, a drunk woman, well...not so classy. What do you think?


Absolutely not classy! I would assume a man in a bar by himself  is depressed and has problems...!

Vicky


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## Horazio

Being drunk is never classy. But again , if you're a woman it's even less classy.


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## argentina84

Victoria32 said:


> Absolutely not classy! I would assume a man in a bar by himself is depressed and has problems...!
> Vicky


 
Right. I agree with this. And the worst thing of it is that I didn't know how to help him.


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## exist

Wil_the_terrible said:


> a guy said "A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy", so, we must assume that a man in a bar all by himself is classy and sophisticated.


Hmm, that's not a very logical argument. 

Maybe if he was eating a Ferrero Rocher in a tuxedo then yes he would be classy, ehem.

I don't think it's a male vs female thing, drunkenness is just not..."classy" (or whatever you want to call it), full stop. That's not to say it makes you an evil, uncouth peasant either. At least not in Northern countries.

Here in the drunken-moron capital of Europe, it's a statistical fact that males are much more likely to be physically assaulted (even killed, but not raped) than women due to drunken behaviour. Speaking from personal experience, when some unfortunate guy  (on a couple of occasions me) is getting a good kicking oustide a club of a weekend night, the assaulter(s) drunken idiot girlfriend(s) often like to watch and cheer him/them on.


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## jonquiliser

alexacohen said:


> Jonquil, I cannot speak for Athaulf. But men are not (usually) raped. Women are. It's sad, it's unfair, it's a crime, but it's true. And it is so much easier to take advantage of a drunken woman.
> I volunteer for an association which gives psychological care to raped women. There are far too many cases of women raped when they were drunk.
> Please note that I'm not justifying this in any way. It is what I see, and no more.



Alexa, it's true that "drunk women are more vulnerable". But isn't this what what we hear everywhere, all the time: "women are more at risk when drunk" or "women should be careful drinking as it puts them at risk" or "women should move in certain parts, or frequent certain spaces, as it puts them at risk for...". 

Where are all the comments directed at male behaviour, or requests/demands that men don't rape, or the drastic measures to prevent men from raping (or otherwise harassing) women? Why is the public space continuously withdrawn from women? Why are the spaces and possibilities of women restricted? Wouldn't it make more sense to prevent/prohibit men then, from all these bars and parks (where rapes suppposedly take place - remember most rapes take place in homes, the most common perpetrator being a man/men the victim knows)? Why is the discourse constantly being directed at women's habits and doings? 

Isn't this thread a good place to start? That is, I think it nicely puts the finger on an urgent question: what -and why- are the differences in how women and men are considered in respect to the question of behaviour (in public or private spaces)?

I guess no one will say men who are drunk are classy - but there are a hell of a lot of people finding it smashing cool (real macho, even) for *men* to be drunk, to harass women (and gay men, and elderly people, and...), and yes: to rape women. Drunk women are silly, at best, "vulnerable" in most people's eyes, and "fair game" for some. Isn't that a difference of gender?

...

EDIT: I nearly forgot my cultural contribution remark: yes, in Finland it's common, not to say _the_ mainstream point of view, that men who are really fucking pissed are macho. "Real men drink". ("Real men" also rape.)


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## Harry Batt

Well folks, ponder on this one. Alcoholics Anonymous in Minneapolis grew like Topsy after 1940 but it was a male realm. Less than a half dozen women became members until the 1960s. Perhaps on the theory that it takes a drunk to know a drunk a rule of the main Club eventually banned mixed groups of women and men. The earliest infusion of women into the male groups resulted in a sordid side to the Club's record of sobriety. In the manner of James Thurber: Moral:- You can take a classy drunk out of a bar if you can find one.


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## badgrammar

Nothing turns me on more than a drunk man.  Definitely classy, sexy and virile.  The drunker the better.  Hot!!!


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## alexacohen

jonquiliser said:


> I nearly forgot my cultural contribution remark: yes, in Finland it's common, not to say _the_ mainstream point of view, that men who are really fucking pissed are macho. "Real men drink". ("Real men" also rape.)


Jonquiliser: I'm sorry to contradict you. A rapist, either drunk or sober, is not a man. That thing is not even human. 
I can't be sure about Spain; I don't drink, so my perspective may not be accurate.
But my impression is that being "slightly drunk" is regarded as cool, and being "totally drunk", is not. 
I'm not quite sure where the difference lies; maybe collapsing.


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## nichec

Wil_the_terrible said:


> In a thread called "women in bars", a guy said "A woman in a bar all by herself is just not classy", so, we must assume that a man in a bar all by himself is classy and sophisticated. Quite funny, a drunk man is classy, a drunk woman, well...not so classy. What do you think?


 
There was this guy who always sat in front of my bank (where I had my account), with a bottle of red wine in his hand, looking dirty and unshaven and *drunk*, staring at everyone withdrawing money from the ATM machine placed right in front of the bank. He looks French (pale skin, dark hair, European face) and young, in fact, I think he's quite a good-looking guy if he's clean and shaven and sober, yet he always smelt so horrible that I had to hold my breath everytime I went past him since he's always there, day or night, rain or shine.

There was something in his eyes when he looked at me (or everyone) that pained me so much that I decided to use the ATM machine *inside* of the bank instead, at least that way I didn't have to bear the pain. His eyes were young and old, hollow and full of emotion all at the same time, and on top of it, they were full of hatred and disappointment......

I didn't know his story or what had happened to him, but I was always tempted to give him some money (since I was taking money, and he was staring......) Yet I never did that because I knew he would just go get another bottle with that money, and then I would be hurting him instead of helping him........My then-French boyfriend tried to give him some food once, but he refused, all he wanted is alcohol.......

Was he *classy*? No, all I could feel when I saw him, and even when I think of him now, is pity and pain, and that's very far from being classy.


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## jonquiliser

alexacohen said:


> Jonquiliser: I'm sorry to contradict you. A rapist, either drunk or sober, is not a man. That thing is not even human.
> I can't be sure about Spain; I don't drink, so my perspective may not be accurate.
> But my impression is that being "slightly drunk" is regarded as cool, and being "totally drunk", is not.
> I'm not quite sure where the difference lies; maybe collapsing.



You're right, it's not human to rape. But what people claim to be "real men" are those who do all those kind of shitty, bastard, inhuman things.

I don't drink too often myself, but my quite strong perception of many social strata in Finland is that being dead damn drunk is precisely what is seen as cool. That frequently includes collapsing...

There are exceptions, of course.


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## cuchuflete

Most of the people jailed for murder where I live were drunk when they killed.
Most of their victims were drunk when killed.

Classy?


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## Trisia

I can't say that over here drunk men are considered "classy", but you'll probably hear teenagers teasing one another, saying it takes a real man to get really drunk - so it's at least "trendy". We have many alcoholics, but since I don't go often to pubs/bars I can't say how classy they are 

I live in a little village now, and there are at least 17 sordid pubs here eek. You can see unshaven, coarse, middle-aged men sitting, drinking and laughing all day long.
That is not my idea of classy.


But I think the original post was about a man sitting in a bar all by himself. I would have to say that having a beer with friends is considered good fun, while going all by yourself will probably look pathetic - like your girl just walked out on you and you're trying to drown your sorrows.


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## Paulfromitaly

Even though there might be some people (not too many, hopefully) who think that getting drunk is cool, I really don't think they would ever have the guts to say that getting drunk is classy.
It's however true that some classy people get drunk quite often.
Would we still regard them as classy, then?


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## amnariel

Paulfromitaly said:


> Would we still regard them as classy, then?


 
Definitelly NO! If one is classy, one knows how to control itself on every occasion, therefore doesn't get wasted, ever.


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## nichec

Paulfromitaly said:


> Even though there might be some people (not too many, hopefully) who think that getting drunk is cool, I really don't think they would ever have the guts to say that getting drunk is classy.
> It's however true that some classy people get drunk quite often.
> Would we still regard them as classy, then?


 
I have been thinking about this.

My favorite painter Amedeo Modigliani was known to be a big drinker, I love him as an artist (especially his works, of course), but I wonder if I would like him as a man, I mean, as someone you have "real contact" with. After all, he died really young (37) because of (partly) his drinking problem, leaving behind a baby girl and the pregnant Jeanne Hébuterne, who killed herself right after that (along with the baby in the belly)

Some very famous Chinese artists were known to drink a lot too, while their works might be very classy, I doubt their lives and the lives of those around them were even bearable, not to mention classy.

I always have soft hearts for artists, but the truth is, some great artists like Gabriel Garcia Marquez believe in the benefits healthy life style can bring to their works.

Are they still classy? Their works are classy, but I am not sure about the people behind the works...............


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## alexacohen

nichec said:


> Some very famous Chinese artists were known to drink a lot too, while their works might be very classy, I doubt their lives and the lives of those around them were even bearable, not to mention classy.
> 
> Are they still classy? Their works are classy, but I am not sure about the people behind the works...............


 
Oh, no, not only Chinese artists... there are many, many artists who destroyed themselves with spirits (and/or drugs). Baudelaire and Poe, Scott Fitzgerald, and Jason Pollock, and Dylan Thomas, and I have to stop because lists are not allowed... and, besides, I'm afraid this one would be really too long.
But I don't believe their great works were done while they were drunk. I really think that their drinking habits destroyed them (and most probably, those around them too; but that is just my impression).
Not classy. Just plain silly.


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## Athaulf

alexacohen said:


> Oh, no, not only Chinese artists... there are many, many artists who destroyed themselves with spirits (and/or drugs). Baudelaire and Poe, Scott Fitzgerald, and Jason Pollock, and Dylan Thomas, and I have to stop because lists are not allowed... and, besides, I'm afraid this one would be really too long.
> But I don't believe their great works were done while they were drunk. I really think that their drinking habits destroyed them (and most probably, those around them too; but that is just my impression).



Well, I doubt that these individuals would have been able to create a comparable output if they had lived ordinary peaceful lives. I find it hard to imagine e.g. Baudelaire living a conventional middle-class bourgeoisie lifestyle and still coming up with the same poetry.


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## tom_in_bahia

I think naturally drunk woman are more vulnerable to rape for obvious physiological reasons. However, any drunk person who passes out in a public place is running a great risk of trusting his or her physical person to the rest of the "nocturnal community". I remember seeing a drunk guy passed out here in Brazil at night on a sort of elevated sidewalk, then I saw his friend was passed out on the street next to him. It appeared they had been fighting. However, the one on the street was hidden from turning traffic's view and could easily have been killed by a car that turned the corner rapidly...so it's not just women who run risks...

Interestingly, this reminds me of an expression in Portuguese (excuse the language, and by language I mean "bad words"):

Cu de bebado não tem dono. (A drunk man's asshole doesn't have an owner). So, possibly male on female rape is not the only kind that can occur in these situations.


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## Josita

In my personal opinion,a man or a woman drunk is a thing stupid!There's so many disgraces that happen when a "inocent" beer (or something like that) is involved in it.
Drink a little is natural...But the human beings must to pay attention to your actions after.


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## avok

But I  think, it also depends on the person who happens to be drunk. If you don't like the person (girl/boy), when they get drunk you just find them non-classy but if you like the person even if they get drunk you find them cute little naughty creatures.


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## amnariel

avok said:


> but if you like the person even if they get drunk you find them cute little naughty creatures.


 
Not in my age you don't  Once one gets "mature" enough, drunk person, regardless to sex, but in this particular thread male, is completely not attractive, classy or anything that can have connotation. Of course, in the eyes of someone who is not drunk as well and knows what she is doing...


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## heidita

Horazio said:


> Being drunk is never classy. But again , if you're a woman it's even less classy.


 

Why would you say that? 


jonquiliser said:


> Alexa, it's true that "drunk women are more vulnerable". But isn't this what what we hear everywhere, all the time: "women are more at risk when drunk" or "women should be careful drinking as it puts them at risk" or "women should move in certain parts, or frequent certain spaces, as it puts them at risk for...".


 
 Why should a woman be more vulnerable if drunk? I think a woman is more vulnerable anyway, because we are simply physically weaker(not all but most women) and it has nothing to do with being drunk or not.



> Where are all the comments directed at male behaviour, or requests/demands that men don't rape, or the drastic measures to prevent men from raping (or otherwise harassing) women? Why is the public space continuously withdrawn from women? Why are the spaces and possibilities of women restricted? Wouldn't it make more sense to prevent/prohibit men then, from all these bars and parks (where rapes suppposedly take place - remember most rapes take place in homes, the most common perpetrator being a man/men the victim knows)? Why is the discourse constantly being directed at women's habits and doings?


 
Nice post, jonqui. This is one of the reasons why women do not have (can't make) a driving licence in Lebanon (I think it is in Lebanon) . The "argument" against this: women are_ at risk_ if they have to change a wheel (sic).


> I guess no one will say men who are drunk are classy - but there are a hell of a lot of people finding it smashing cool (real macho, even) for *men* to be drunk,


 I wouldn't go that far. But it is certainly not criticised. I have seen several post on this page by people saying that it is sad, not classy...but I don't normally see men being criticised by other men. If a man gets drunk the next day, the fact is laughed upon and everybody thinks it was hilarious how he did this or that, how he stumbled and almost fell.....and last but not least, how he tried to pick up that woman who felt very uncomfortable. I have yet not seen a man being criticised by other men for being drunk. 





> yes, in Finland it's common, not to say _the_ mainstream point of view, that men who are really fucking pissed are macho. "Real men drink".


 Yes, I would think this is a fact in most countries.


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## Benjy

Mod note: This thread is NOT about rape. It is about the class or lack thereof that men posses after becoming drunk. Which if anyone cares for my opinion is a rather straightforward question to ask.


If you want to discuss whether laws should restrict women from certain activites to safe guard them from men, so be it, but start another thread. The same goes for drunkeness and rape.

Any more digressions from the thread starter will earn this thread a one way ticket to the cells.


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