# Miss / Mr / Mrs / Ms



## WindDust

Hello !

Lately I received a mail from some agency willing to contact me for some job offers

[...]
I'm always wondering about the Mrs/Ms/Miss/Mr ...

What is used for who ?

I'd say :
Miss --> young woman
Mrs --> older woman
Mr --> man (so Dear Sir or Mr ? )
Ms --> when you don't know whether you're writing to a man or a woman


Thank you!


----------



## bellygroove99

Miss - an unmarried female
Mrs - a married female
Mr - a man
Ms - a woman who perhaps you don't know if she is married, or some woman prefer to be called this anyway (I'm English but still not entirely sure on this one)


----------



## funnyhat

bellygroove99 said:


> Miss - an unmarried female
> Mrs - a married female
> Mr - a man
> Ms - a woman who perhaps you don't kow if she is married, or some woman prefer to be called this anyway (I'm English but still not entirely sure on this one)



This is correct.


----------



## jul01

I am really lost with the "Ms." thing. 

2 examples that I don't understand from an american book:

(The narrator is talking about a widowed women "_I called her Mrs. Bennington at her insistence. When I'd referred to her as Ms. Bennington; she'd nearly bitten my head off."_

And in this book the narrator is a women of 26 years old who has been engaged at one point, but is not anymore, and who does not like being referred as Miss. but as Ms.


----------



## Fred_C

Hi,
Could you please confirm the non abbreviated spellings of those?
Miss,
Missus (or perhaps Mistress, what is the difference ?)
Mister
??? (How do you spell Ms unabbreviated?)

Thank you.


----------



## Punky Zoé

Bonjour

@ FredC, selon ma phonologie personnelle  :
Mrs : missiz
Ms : mizz

@ Jul01 : ce que je comprends du texte. La narratrice souhaite qu'on utilise Ms et non Miss la concernant. Ms (création récente) présente l'intérêt d'être non-discriminatoire, utilisable pour toute personne de sexe féminin, quelque soit son statut social. À l'image de ce qui se pratique pour les personnes de sexe masculin, avec Mr., non ?

Son personnage, pour des raisons qui lui sont propres (âge, référence à son statut de femme mariée avant son veuvage ...), souhaite qu'on s'adresse à elle en précisant son statut de femme mariée. Peut-être son éducation fait-elle qu'elle refuse la convention moderne qu'est Ms ?

La notion Ms a déjà été discutée sur ce forum.

Ce sont bien des questions de mecs, ça !


----------



## Topsie

On voit toujours Ms. en abrégé et il n'y a pas d'autre façon de l'écrire !
Le français "Madelle", qu'on a proposé comme traduction n'a jamais eu de succès  Elles sont où les French Feminists


----------



## Cath.S.

Topsie said:


> On voit toujours Ms. en abrégé et il n'y a pas d'autre façon de l'écrire !
> Le français "Madelle", qu'on a proposé comme traduction n'a jamais eu de succès  Elles sont où les French Feminists


Je comprends le peu de succès de Madelle : on dirait un prénom ou un nom de marque de garniture périodique. C'est ce que ce néologisme m'évoque en tous cas...
Je ne suis pas passéiste, mais je conserve un faible pour Citoyen et Citoyenne.
Voire... Camarade !


----------



## ascoltate

I would say that in a business letter to someone (whether you know their marital status or not) it is customary to use "Mr." for men and "Ms." for women nowadays.


----------



## tilt

Topsie said:


> Elles sont où les French Feminists


Les French Feminists demandent, à juste titre selon moi, que toutes les femmes soient appelées _Madame_. Je trouve que le néologisme _Ms._ ne fait qu'entériner l'inutile et injuste discrimination entre _Mrs_ et _Miss_.


----------



## OLN

J'abonde!
La discrimination est pour moi plus inutile et injustifiée (que veut dire "célibataire" quand on vit en couple depuis 20 ans et a 4 enfants?) qu'injuste.
Le néologisme qui n'a pas lieu d'être. Il fait cohabiter 3 dénominations alors qu'une suffit. Quand en plus il est aussi ridicule que _madelle_, comme si "delle"  avait un sens et sonnait différemment de demois_elle_ à l'oreille !


----------



## Keith Bradford

Fred_C said:


> Hi,
> Could you please confirm the non abbreviated spellings of those?
> Miss,
> Missus (or perhaps Mistress, what is the difference ?)
> Mister
> ??? (How do you spell Ms unabbreviated?)



There is no formal unabbreviated spelling of any of these.

_Mister_ and the parallel _Missus_ are used in casual/slang conversation only. E.g. "Hey mister, give us a quid for a cuppa." or "'Scuse me, missus, you've dropped yer glove."

_Mistress_ no longer has the meaning of "married woman" which it had for Shakespeare. It now has three meanings:

*"female owner of a dog or other pet*"
*"female lover*, kept woman, dominatrix..."
"*schoolteacher*" as in "art mistress", "games mistress",
But even the last two are becoming outdated.

The abbreviation _Ms_ is pronounced _mizz_ but rarely spelt out in full.


----------



## baker589

Fred_C said:


> Hi,
> Could you please confirm the non abbreviated spellings of those?
> Miss
> Missus
> Mister



Ms is a contraction of mistress, although we never say or write it like that;  it's just where it comes from.

The first bullet point is the main difference:

-Missus is a colloquial term used to refer to someone's wife (I best let the missus know), and is the only use for Missus I can think of (and Keith Bradford's).  A mistress is a standard term used to refer to a woman who has had a long-term sexual relationship with a married man

-Mistress is also a rather dated way to describe a (female) school teacher, e.g. "Report to the Head Mistress at once!"

-There are a few other uses for mistress, but there not really related to the question

Edit: I pronounce Ms as 'muhz'


----------



## wildan1

_Ms. ______ is widely used in the US. And it's not really "new" anymore--it's been common since the 1970s. 

_Miss _____ _has virtually disappeared as the older generation comfortable with this form of address has disappeared from the workplace. (Until two years ago I had one colleague in her 70s who always answered her phone "Miss Hughes speaking"--she was the last holdout and then she retired! I know no one else whom I would seriously address as _"Miss X_")

I would only address a woman as _Mrs._ ______ if I were invited by her to do so or if the social situation made it clear that it was the appropriate title.

PS In AE, unlike BE, all of these titles conform with other abbreviations and take a period (full stop): _Mr. - Mrs. - Ms. - Dr. -_ _Rev. -_
_Fr._ etc.


----------



## CanuckPete

Mrs and Miss are considered very sexist and derogatory to many people as they identify women by their marital status—where as men (Mr) are identified by their gender. I would use Ms unless corrected. I wouldn't use Mrs as this would imply the person is married.

There is a misconception that Ms means a woman who is divorced. It does not mean this. It simply means 'female'.


----------



## akaAJ

"Ms." or "Ms" is an invented word and is not an abbreviation for anything, certainly not "mistress"


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

wildan1 said:


> PS In AE, unlike BE, all of these titles conform with other abbreviations and take a period (full stop): _Mr. - Mrs. - Ms. - Dr. -_ _Rev. -_
> _Fr._ etc.



I always write the above abbreviations with a full stop and was taught to do as such from an early age. This is the standard practice, as far as I know, for all other Hiberno-English speakers. 

Interesting to read that the same isn't true as regards B.E.


----------



## funnyhat

Note that if you are _speaking_ to a man or woman that you do not know, you can use "Sir" or "Ma'am."  However, if you know their name, this is considered too impersonal, and "Mr./Mrs/Ms/Miss" plus the name is preferred.


----------



## Keith Bradford

As for the punctuation, the standard BE rule is that you use a full stop, unless you have written the final letter.  So you'd have the dot with _Rev._ but not with _Revd_ - if that's how you chose to spell it.  None of _Mr - Mrs - Ms - Dr -_ _Fr_ requires a full stop.


----------



## SunnyS

[...]

As for the English punctuation, I was also taught to always write any title abbreviation with a period (or full stop), but I think this is changing. In reports and in the media, I see more and more  simply a "Mr White," for example, no period at all.
I have no idea why that is, but I have the impression its usage is growing.


----------



## touriste77

Hello,
I don't know if I should create a new thread but...
Is it correct to use for example "*Mrs.* First Name LastName" when talking about myself, I mean in automatic signature for emails for example.
My name is quite confusing about my gender. So when people answer me, they write "Dear Mr. ..." though I am a woman 
Thank you.


----------



## Topsie

Hello touriste & welcome to the forum!
I would just put your first name & last name with title in brackets afterwards,
e.g. Dominique Dupont (Mme)


----------



## touriste77

Thank you


----------



## OLN

Welcome to the forums, touriste77!
See, I added  ♀ to my WR profile. 

Would the French abbreviation "Mme" be better understood than simply Ms. or Mrs. Stéphane/Camille/Dominique/Claude Lastname?
 I mean touriste77 was asking about how to sign a letter or e-mail in English. Or am I wrong?


----------



## touriste77

OLN said:


> Would the French abbreviation "Mme" be better understood than simply Ms. or Mrs. Stéphane/Camille/Dominique/Claude Lastname?
> I mean touriste77 was asking about how to sign a letter or e-mail in English. Or am I wrong?


Hi OLN and everyone,
Yes, I was asking about e-mail in English. 
So I thought of adapting Topsie's advice and writing "FistName LASTNAME (Mrs.)"...
Or is it strange?


OLN said:


> See, I added  ♀ to my WR profile.


Are you suggesting me to add it too to my WR profile ?


----------



## Keith Bradford

"FirstName LASTNAME (Mrs.)" is standard BE procedure for signing a letter (or e-mail no doubt).  But you'd never address anybody else like this.


----------



## OLN

> Are you suggesting me to add it too to my WR profile ?


Touriste being as inscrutable as OLN, it depends on _how_ annoyed you are at being addressed as a "he" .

Il y a tellement de prénoms ambigus en anglais que c'était sûr qu'il existait une façon de résoudre le problème à l'écrit. J'ai appris quelque chose d'inutile, donc d'essentiel. Merci !


----------



## L'irlandais

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I always write the above abbreviations with a full stop and was taught to do as such from an early age.  This is the standard practice, as far as I know, for all other Hiberno-English speakers.
> 
> Interesting to read that the same isn't true as regards B.E.


I too was brought up to respect this rule.


----------



## ymc

wildan1 said:


> _Ms. ______ is widely used in the US. And it's not really "new" anymore--it's been common since the 1970s.
> 
> _Miss _____ _has virtually disappeared as the older generation comfortable with this form of address has disappeared from the workplace. (Until two years ago I had one colleague in her 70s who always answered her phone "Miss Hughes speaking"--she was the last holdout and then she retired! I know no one else whom I would seriously address as _"Miss X_")
> 
> I would only address a woman as _Mrs._ ______ if I were invited by her to do so or if the social situation made it clear that it was the appropriate title.
> 
> PS In AE, unlike BE, all of these titles conform with other abbreviations and take a period (full stop): _Mr. - Mrs. - Ms. - Dr. -_ _Rev. -_
> _Fr._ etc.


 wildan1 said it all


----------



## Colmartranslation

The problem with Mr./Mr, is that these are not abbreviations, they are contractions, Mister > M....r > Mr 
The middle part of the word is missing and not the end.
From a purely theoretical point of view, we should write "M'r". Needless to say, I have NEVER seen this transcription used. As a general rule, you add a full stop in AE and not in BE.
I confirm that as a single adult woman, I would not appreciate being called "Miss", in fact I would be quite offended! I would recommend "Ms"  for any woman over the age of 18.


----------



## The Prof

I have noticed that it is becoming increasingly common to avoid the use of _any _title where the woman's marital status or preferred title is unknown. Even important business letters are now frequently signed without any indication of title, for example, _yours sincerely, Mary Smith_. Presumably in response to this, letters that begin with "Dear Mary Smith" are no longer unusual!

That said, I would not recommend this approach if writing an important letter such as a job application.  Generally speaking, it is reasonable to assume that if the woman to whom you are writing has not specified a title, then she is unlikely be offended by the use of "Ms".


----------



## Mikamocha

Perhaps I missed this answer while reading the threads, but what then would be the French equivalent for Ms...as in a woman who was married and was divorced etc...? I always understood Mlle to mean a young woman who was never married so this would not qualify for Ms. as in a previously married, now divorced etc.. woman. Thank you!


----------



## Hildy1

With or without a period, _Mrs_, _Ms_ and _Miss_ are all abbreviations of _Mistress_. _Ms_ is not an entirely new creation; I have seen it in eighteenth-century books, for example.
It may well have been a mistake to revive _Ms_ rather than using _Mrs_ for all female adults, but that is neither here nor there. It is well established now.


----------



## juanpide

And something like "Ms" for a man?
I mean, when you don't know whether you're writing to a married man or unmarried one


----------



## Nicomon

The ridiculous _madelle_ and suggested abbreviation _Mad_. (with a period) never caught on... for obvious reasons.

@ juanpide : *Mr.* refers to a man, whether he's married or not.  There isn't any male equivalent of* Ms*.   





> In the early 1970s, the use of Ms. was adopted and encouraged by the women's movement, the reasoning being that since a man's marital status is not revealed by the title Mr., there is no reason that a woman's status should be revealed by her title.


----------



## Uncle Bob

Nicomon said:


> @ juanpide : *Mr.* refers to a man, whether he's married or not.  There isn't any male equivalent of* Ms*.



It isn't used any more but when I was young it was polite to address a letter to a boy with "Esq" e.g. Christopher Robin Esq.


----------



## wildan1

Uncle Bob said:


> It isn't used any more but when I was young it was polite to address a letter to a boy with "Esq" e.g. Christopher Robin Esq.


Yes, old-fashioned. In AE the name is followed by a comma and esquire is not capitalized:_ Christopher Robin, esq._

A bit more common for a young boy: _Master Christopher Robin. Master _​is not abbreviated.


----------



## Nicomon

I knew about _Master_, but that would be the male equivalent to _Miss_, right?  juanpide was asking about _Ms_. 

This is what they say in Dictionary.com about _esquire_ : 





> (initial capital letter) an unofficial title of respect, having no precise significance, sometimes placed, especially in its abbreviated form, after a man's surname in formal written address: in the U.S., usually applied to lawyers, women as well as men; in Britain, applied to a commoner considered to have gained the social position of a gentleman. Abbreviation: Esq.


----------



## juanpide

What about 'Sir'?


----------



## Uncle Bob

wildan1 said:


> A bit more common for a young boy: _Master Christopher Robin. Master _​is not abbreviated.


Ooh arr, I nigh forgot the young Master, bless his soul.



juanpide said:


> What about 'Sir'?



You often start a letter "Dear Sir" or, if you are complaining, simply "Sir" but otherwise it is only used for those who have been given, or bought, a knighthood. The forms of address for "the great and the good" who have inherited or, again, bought aristocratic titles make a long list (which is best ignored).


----------



## Hildy1

"Sir" can also be used, not followed by a name, to correspond to "ma'am".
- Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am.
This was common in the past for children speaking to adults, and is still used in some regions, such as the Southern United States.


----------



## Alpheratz

Hi,
Is there a neutral abbreviation in english for transgender and intersexual persons ?


----------



## Kecha

Mikamocha said:


> Perhaps I missed this answer while reading the threads, but what then would be the French equivalent for Ms...as in a woman who was married and was divorced etc...? I always understood Mlle to mean a young woman who was never married so this would not qualify for Ms. as in a previously married, now divorced etc.. woman. Thank you!


There is none.

"Madame" as opposed to "Mademoiselle" means "married", but is starting to shift to being the "neutral" title ("Mademoiselle" has been removed from official forms since 2012), although you might always meet a stubborn old fashioned woman who pointedly insists to be called "Mademoiselle".



Alpheratz said:


> Hi,
> Is there a neutral abbreviation in english for transgender and intersexual persons ?


Mx
See Mx (title) - Wikipedia


----------



## Keith Bradford

Kecha said:


> ... Mx
> See Mx (title) - Wikipedia


But don't imagine that all trans people will want to adopt this -- in fact I don't know of any of my acquaintances who do so.  As with many identifiers, it's a matter of personal preference and the polite thing is to ask "how do you like to be addressed?"


----------



## Alpheratz

Thank you for your reply with the link, it's very useful !

Yes I am well aware of that, Keith. But for some of these persons who don't feel in keeping with a binary gender system, the development of a neutral gender may be very useful. For your information, Sweden made official a neutral pronoun hen which is now in their royal academic dictionary.


----------



## sanders4692

bellygroove99 said:


> Miss - an unmarried female
> Mrs - a married female
> Mr - a man
> Ms - a woman who perhaps you don't kow if she is married, or some woman prefer to be called this anyway (I'm English but still not entirely sure on this one)
> 
> [...]


To me, 'Ms' was originally used if a woman was divorced. However, I know a lot of woman prefer to use 'Ms' now instead of 'Miss' or 'Mrs' because they don't want to be known by their marital status.  As all men, young, married, divorced are known as, 'Mr.' So why can't women?


----------

