# Why are some accents considered “low”?



## fenixpollo

It seems that every country has a region whose accent is criticized, parodied and put down as a poor example of the language. For example, many Americans look down on an accent from the South (especially Arkansas); many Spaniards, I have heard, look down on accents from Extremadura; and I’m sure the British could make a long list of bad examples of the Queen’s English.

*What characteristics of an accent make it less “correct” or “proper” in the eyes (and ears) of speakers of the same language?* Is it a certain sound, or is it social or cultural, or are there other factors? 
*What do speakers with that “low” accent think about their own accents and the accents of their countrymen?*

Here are some related threads I’ve found on the subject (other links are always appreciated):
Your preferred accent?; Who speaks English well?; el acento argentino; el acento andaluz; puerto rican/cuban accent; Spanish accent 

Your objective opinions are greatly appreciated.


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## Lemminkäinen

Could it be that urban/rural plays a part? The Oslo dialect is considered pretty standard, but dialects from other large cities like Bergen and Trondheim are also, well, tolerated (they're made fun of, but so are almost all dialects here  ). 

However, the Eastern dialect (south and east of Oslo, where there's a lot of agriculture and farming going on) is usually considered unappealing (sorry, Aleco! I have family in Halden though, so don't get mad  ) and "simple".


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## Julito_Maraña

Two thousand years ago, the "good" accent in Hispania (now Spain & Portugal) was the one spoken in the South and the "rural" one was the one spoken in the North (where Spanish actually comes from). When the political situation became reversed with the Reconquista so did the socio-linguistic situation.

Standard French is essentially the Paris dialect because Paris was and is the center of French power. Standard English comes from London English, and Standard Italian, although a hybrid, is based on a dialect from a city with great prestige (Florence).

It's not the dialect that matters. If the center of American power were Hope, Arkansas, the Southern Accent would be considered sophisticated and Bill Clinton would have tried harder to sound more Southern instead of "softening" his dialect they way he obviously does. 


There is no quantifiable factor that makes one accent sound "better" than another. When Australia takes over the world everyone is going to want to sound like Crocodile Dundee because that will be considered "posh." It's about money and power: prestige.


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## whattheflock

I think it has to do a lot with who is the group in power. And of "inherited" prejudices. For example, in Mexico, the people who live in Mexico City think their accent is the proper way to speak Mexican Spanish (or any other Spanish, for that matter.) But we are talking about the accent affected by the upper classes (or "affluent", if you wish). The vast majority in Mexico City has a sing-song accent that is parodied worldwide (I assume) as the most pedestrian Spanish accent of all time.
Even so, it seems that the most despised accent in Mexico is the one that makes you sound as if your first language is an indigenous language and Spanish is your second language. I think that, because usually the people who speak with that kind of accent (which we incorrectly call "Indios") live in rural areas mostly, and the Spaniards looked down on them, nowdays the people who want to feel "in power/in control" also look down on them.

As for the English accents, I think that in the USA people like to make fun of anyone with a Southern accent because they (the South) lost the Civil War. Of course, nobody really makes too much fun of Texans in their presence, since they reputedly go around in possession of their personal armory. I don't know if that's true or not, so nevermind.


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## übermönch

In rural Hesse, Bavarian, Swabian and Low German are seen as funny and lowly and are actaully all laughed at; while Frankon is even stronger tolerated than High German. But, you know, I can't really speak for all of Germany  Whatever they say, we are right, they are wrong.


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## modus.irrealis

I agree with the rest that it's social prestige (or the opposite) that comes first and then the speech of the prestigious sounds proper and that of the less than prestigious sounds low. There seem to be many examples of features that are considered low but when adopted by the upper classes suddenly become proper, e.g. the French R.



Julito_Maraña said:


> It's not the dialect that matters. If the center of American power were Hope, Arkansas, the Southern Accent would be considered sophisticated and Bill Clinton would have tried harder to sound more Southern instead of "softening" his dialect they way he obviously does.



The odd thing with American English is that it's standard accent (going from what you are most likely to hear on TV) seems to come from the Midwest, which is hardly powerful, socially or politically. I've always wondered how that came to be.


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## Julito_Maraña

modus.irrealis said:


> The odd thing with American English is that it's standard accent (going from what you are most likely to hear on TV) seems to come from the Midwest, which is hardly powerful, socially or politically. I've always wondered how that came to be.



I think that what the Midlands dialect is seen as is "neutral." If you want to sell a product to people from the North, South, East, and West, you don't want an accent that says : "I'm from New York" or "I'm from Georgia." And you don't want either of those because of the prejudice you get on both sides of the Mason-Dixie Line. What you want is one that doesn't make you think about where the speaker is from at all. I think that's what the "neutral" accent does.

By the way, I think that "Standard" accent isn't exactly what most people in the Midwest speak but it's what is "Standard" there too. Working class people in say Minnesota or Chicago don't speak that "Evening News" English.


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## Outsider

Earlier thread: General American.

Basically, it was chosen as the standard on purpose, from statistical considerations: more Americas speak Midwesterner -- or indistinguishably close to it -- than any other regional accent in the country.


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## pickypuck

fenixpollo said:


> ...many Spaniards, I have heard, look down on accents from Extremadura...


 
It is surprising because all the accents from the south have common characteristics so if the people who told you that were from the south, they were looking down their own accents. 
It is surprising because if they were from the north, the most normal sentence that I've heard from northerners is we all southerners sound the same. 
So this is all a surprise!  

But the point is everytime I've been out of the autonomous community with family and friends, people had thought we were either Andalusians or Canarians. So I'm surprised and glad too that people can know where I am from without telling  

The question is which accents were they referring to? Maybe they look down on accents from the north-east of Extremadura, which are exactly the same to the Spanish spoken in Castile


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## fenixpollo

Actually, pickypuck, this thread started because I read a post in a thread about an Extremeña singer, in which a Spanish forero described Extremadura as a place "where they don't speak the best Spanish"; and this wasn't the first comment that I have read about the region.  Rather than give any credence to the prejudices of others, or get into a discussion about regional prejudice in Spain, I decided to use my curiosity to ask the question in a more general way.  In any case, I couldn't have done a better job than Phryne did in her excellent thread about Regional Prejudice.


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## Julito_Maraña

pickypuck said:


> It is surprising because all the accents from the south have common characteristics so if the people who told you that were from the south, they were looking down their own accents.
> It is surprising because if they were from the north, the most normal sentence that I've heard from northerners is we all southerners sound the same.
> So this is all a surprise!
> 
> But the point is everytime I've been out of the autonomous community with family and friends, people had thought we were either Andalusians or Canarians. So I'm surprised and glad too that people can know where I am from without telling
> 
> The question is which accents were they referring to? Maybe they look down on accents from the north-east of Extremadura, which are exactly the same to the Spanish spoken in Castile



I've always thought there there are several forms of Spanish spoken in Extremadura, maybe they are all bad in different ways to paraphrase Tolstoy. It's quite silly to say that, for example, in Spain they don't speak the best Spanish partially because everybody in Spain doesn't speak the same way. I think the same holds true for Extremadura. But it's silly to say that for other reasons as well.


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## pickypuck

I don't see big differences in how Bebe sings (I think you are referring to her  ) with respect to any other singer from the south. But the point is many people disagree with what they told you if we focus on the number of discs sold by her, the success that she has, etc. So there are people who really like how she sings (speaks)... either it is that, or are they masochistic  

Of course there is a despise of certain people towards certain accents but in my opinion that hides a prejudice towards something different from accent. Spanish accents are not seen as correct or incorrect by linguists, so the statement saying "the best Spanish" (regarding the accent topic) doesn't have any basis. Thus, aspirating the final s (a common characteristic from the south) is not considered wrong Spanish while replacing direct with indirect objects or vice versa (which is commonly made in central and northern Spain) is, but that is grammar, not accent, and making grammar mistakes is independent from birthplace or accent.

I've also come across people who say that not to make a difference between c/z and s is wrong Spanish. In that case, the Spanish of more than 90% of Spanish speakers is not "the best", which is totally nonsense.

I respect that there are people who don't like certain accents (as we like and don't like all what exists), but that is a totally different thing.

I know you have proposed a general topic but you put that example and I have to say that it is not how they say


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## french4beth

Good topic - however, when I was growing up, ever the budding linguist, I noticed that there was different slang even within neighboring towns.  I once heard that many call centers were located in Nebraska because it was a location with a relatively neutral accent; I've also been told that my home state, Connecticut, has a relatively neutral accent (but I'm not objective enough to be able to confirm this!).

What I find to be hilarious is that even though many people in the US make fun of African American Vernacular English, it is actually *more* grammatically correct than so-called Standard English, at least from a linguistic standpoint!

Unfortunately, as has been mentioned in previous threads, in the US, a Southern accent is generally mocked by anyone who doesn't have this accent. But people from down South think that everyone else 'talks funny'!

But I would have to agree with previous posters - it's all about the money - generally, the extremely wealthy people are the ones that 'posers' try and emulate.


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## LV4-26

Honestly, I can't think of any regional French accent that would be considered "low". Though all of them may be kindly mocked and imitated now and then. The one that is most criticized would be....the Parisian accent. And I would certainly not call it standard : a strong Parisian accent is anything but neutral.

But that's only my own impression. Let my fellow natives feel free to differ. 
______
PS : And I swear I'm not one of those anti-Parisianists who say "Parigot, tête de veau!"


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## fenixpollo

pickypuck said:


> I don't see big differences in how Bebe sings (I think you are referring to her ) with respect to any other singer from the south.


 I'm trying NOT to refer to her, because I don't want this thread to devolve into a debate about which accents are "low".  I want to hear people's thoughts about why some accents are underappreciated -- but by naming which ones, we do so at our own risk.


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## Kajjo

fenixpollo said:


> *What characteristics of an accent make it less “correct” or “proper” in the eyes (and ears) of speakers of the same language?* Is it a certain sound, or is it social or cultural, or are there other factors?



Besides simple prejudices and former or current political reasons, I think the following points are important factors:

1) syllables are less exactly pronounced as it should be or dropped completely in a way significantly reducing the amount of syllables in a word / slurring of words (thus, overall simplifying)
2) ignorance of vowels / normally distinguished vowels sound alike (same applies to consonants)
3) association of a certain accent with a low-educated class (reduced vocabulary, preferring short words, grammar mistakes along with accent)

Kajjo


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## Outsider

I agree with the replies that have been given so far. How good an accent sounds seems to be a reflection of how comfortable the social status of its speakers is.
I agree that there is often another component in judgements about accents, which has to do with how much the pronunciation deviates from spelling. Even linguists sometimes display this bias in favour of the written word, as if speech came from writing, and not the other way around. So, an accent where words are pronounced more "as they are written" is automatically seen as more correct. Most people don't even stop to question this.


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## San

fenixpollo said:


> Actually, pickypuck, this thread started because I read a post in a thread about an Extremeña singer, in which a Spanish forero described Extremadura as a place "where they don't speak the best Spanish"; and this wasn't the first comment that I have read about the region. Rather than give any credence to the prejudices of others, or get into a discussion about regional prejudice in Spain, I decided to use my curiosity to ask the question in a more general way. In any case, I couldn't have done a better job than Phryne did in her excellent thread about Regional Prejudice.



Hello, I disagree with the idea that there is one or several specific accents in Spain that are considered low. In general whatever strong regional accent can sounds odd or funny, depending on the circumstances, it doesn't matter whether it is from the North or from the South.

So, maybe you have read some stupid coment, but there is not a general belief in Spain about this accent, which most of the people could not distinguish from the accents in neighbour regions like Andalucía o La Mancha. So, how are you going to make jokes about something you cannot clearly identify?

Then, I don't know about other countries, but for me there is no matter.


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## pickypuck

San said:


> ...but there is not a general belief in Spain about this accent, which most of the people could not distinguish from the accents in neighbour regions like Andalucía o La Mancha...


 
Yes. That's why I showed my total surprise.


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## vince

Canada does not have any accents easily distinguishable by the non-philologist---except for the Newfoundlander accent. People do make fun of their "Newfie" accent and there are a few (unflattering) stereotypes about them.

There's also the Québécois accent, but this is usually limited to non-native speakers of English in Québec.


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## nederlandsk

I live in Arkansas, and I've come across VERY few people with the stereotypical "hillbilly" accent, although most of the population in my city is either Hispanic or Asian, like me


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## fenixpollo

I apologize if I offended you Arkansans or Extremeños by suggesting that some people think your accent was "low". I do not think any accent is inherently more valuable than any other. Some people, however, seem to think so. I did not want to debate whether any particular accent is looked down on, or which ones are... rather, I wanted to hear opinions about *why* some accents are looked down on.

Thanks to everyone who has opined so far.


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## pickypuck

As I told you, you didn't offend me at all  So no need to apologize 
I just became surprised to see someone could recognize the accent of my region, since nobody can out of their frontiers. As I told you, according to those people, in the south we all have an Andalusian accent  I wouldn't have been surprised if in the question you had mentioned the accent of the south of Spain or the Andalusian accent, because normally those who despise our accents refer to them as so. But once again I say that I'm happy that my accent can be recognized (I'm afraid that in the reality I will keep on speaking Ansalusian  )


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## nederlandsk

don't worry- You didn't offend me  
I was just saying I rarely hear the "hillbilly" accent"


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