# divan



## Encolpius

Hello, I do not speak Turkish and I have no context. I am looking for the origin of the word divan known in more languages. My question: Is there the word divan in modern Turkish and what does it mean? Thanks.


----------



## Muttaki

Yes there is. One common meaning refers to poetry books like Yunus Emre's Divan or Goethe's Divan. Another meaning is a type sofa which looks like this.

There is also _divan sazı. _It is the biggest size _bağlama _or _saz _which is a Turkish instrument, like this.


----------



## Encolpius

Wow, thanks for the saz. A wodner why they call it "divan sazi".


----------



## Muttaki

Me too.


----------



## Encolpius

I have been thinking about it a little and isn't the reason the player is sitting on a divan when playing?


----------



## Muttaki

Encolpius said:


> I have been thinking about it a little and isn't the reason the player is sitting on a divan when playing?


I don't think it would be simply because of sitting on a _divan_, one plays other size bağlamas as well sitting on a _divan_. I rather suppose it is more likely because it is played in a _divan_. _Divan_, as you might know, also means council or assemblage where a group of people come together. So, the biggest size bağlama is probably chosen for these assemblies so that the sound be high enough for everyone to listen comfortably.

Coming back again, of course _divan_ meaning an assembly has to do with _divan_ as where we sit. But the connection between _divan sazı_ and _divan_ (as sofa) must rather be indirect.


----------



## Encolpius

Interesting comment, Muttaki.


----------



## Gemmenita

Encolpius said:


> ... I am looking for the origin of the word divan known in more languages. My question: Is there the word divan in modern Turkish and what does it mean?...



Hello Encolpius,

Yes, this word (divan) is both a _Turkish_ and a _Persian _word. The most common meanings of Divan is those that Muttaki said.

But for 'Divan sazı', I think since one of the Persian synoymes for Divan is '_palace_', they call it 'Divan sazı' as a musical instrument which was specially played in palaces.


----------



## Muttaki

Gemmenita said:


> But for 'Divan sazı', I think since one of the Persian synoymes for Divan is '_palace_', they call it 'Divan sazı' as a musical instrument which was specially played in palaces.


Historically speaking, bağlama including _divan sazı_ was not played in the palace at all. It is the main instrument of the Turkish folk music and is never used in the Turkish classical music tradition.


----------



## Gemmenita

OK,  it was a hypothesis according to the Persian synonym of _Divan_, so let's think of its Turkish context:
Look at what I have found here about why this instrument is called 'divan sazı'!



> Divan sazı:
> bağlama ailesinin en kalın ses veren ve boyut itibariyle en büyük sazıdır.
> (...)
> adını, *hak divanında *çalınıyor hususuna inanılmasından alır.
> (...)


Hak divanında... = (played in) court of justice


----------



## Muttaki

Gemmenita said:


> Hak divanında... = (played in) court of justice


_Hak_ means God.


----------



## Gemmenita

Yes, I know that, but we are discussing 'divan' and the word 'hak' here is coming with 'divan'...

'Hak' means also 'justice' and here together with the word _divan _it means 'justice' (adalet).

TDK dictionary:


> hak (I) -kkı
> _isim Arapça ḥaḳḳ_
> 1. _isim_ *Adalet*
> "_Haktan ayrılmamalı._"
> (...)




By the way, what's wrong with 'court of justice' here? I thought this could confirm your comment in #6 where you referred to a council.
(Although it looks a bit strange that a musical instrument would be played in a court of justice!)


Muttaki said:


> _Divan_, as you might know, also means council or assemblage where a group of people come together.


(court, council,... which are assemblage/groupe of people to decide about legal cases,...are in the same category!)

Otherwise, what would be your comment about that sentence? (adını, hak divanında çalınıyor hususuna inanılmasından alır.)


----------



## Muttaki

Gemmenita said:


> 'Hak' means also 'justice' and here together with the word _divan _it means 'justice' (adalet).


No, it doesn't. When we say _Hakk'ın dîvânı _in Turkish, _Hak_ means God, not justice. _Hakk'ın dîvânı_ means the presence of God or we could also say the court of God but not court of justice. _Hakk'ın dîvânına durmak_ for instance means to be in the presence of God, which refers to the judgement day when our deeds will be judged by God. _Hak_ is actually another name of God in Islam. As examples:

_Ya nasıl çıkayım kara yüz ile
Ben nice varayım Hak dîvânına
Pir Sultan Abdal

Yarın Hakk'ın divanına varınca,
Süleyman'dan hakkın alır karınca...
Şeyhülislam Ebussuud

Hakkıdır Hakk'a tapan milletimin istiklâl!
İstiklâl Marşı (Turkish National Anthem)_


----------



## Gemmenita

I agree with you on all those explanations. I know what are 'Hak' and 'Hakk'ın divanı' in religious context since it exists in Arabic, Persian and Azeri, too.

But Hak*k'ın* divanı is *clear* *enough* because of the possessive structure with 'ın'. However I know also (because I have seen) that most of the time and according to
_the context_, even 'ha*k* divanı' could be used instead of 'hak*k'ın* divanı'.

But since we are discussing about the reason of 'divan sazı' for that instrument, I want to create a relation between that instrument and the word 'hak divanı' in this sentence, where it is believed that the name of that instrument comes from:
'adını, hak divanında çalınıyor hususuna inanılmasından alır',

You haven't said yet your opinion about the relation between 'divan sazı' and 'hak divanı' in that sentence...


----------



## Muttaki

Gemmenita said:


> 'hak divanı' could be used instead of 'hakk'ın divanı'.


As in the example I gave above.


Gemmenita said:


> But since we are discussing about the reason of 'divan sazı' for that instrument, I want to create a relation between that instrument and the word 'hak divanı' in this sentence, where it is believed that the name of that instrument comes from:
> 'adını, hak divanında çalınıyor hususuna inanılmasından alır',
> 
> You haven't said yet your opinion about the relation between 'divan sazı' and 'hak divanı' in that sentence...


The guy says that it is believed the divan sazı is played in the presence of God. And I would say why not? But you can't understand _Hak dîvânı_ or _Hakk'ın dîvânı_ as you did.

I mean even gramatically it is a mistake, when we say "_hak dîvânı_" because of the -ı suffix in the second word we understand that _hak_ is not adjective but a noun. You could have said _hak divan_, which I don't know what it would possibly mean, to make _hak_ to mean just, still not justice. So, it is obvious that both in _Hak dîvânı_ and _Hakk'ın dîvânı_, _Hak_ refers to God.


----------



## KAR17

Can I just say that 'hak' on wordreference is translated as justice,right etc.and that the word comes from arabic and has a similar meaning in arabic as well


----------



## Muttaki

KAR17 said:


> Can I just say that 'hak' on wordreference is translated as justice,right etc.and that the word comes from arabic and has a similar meaning in arabic as well


The word comes from Arabic and surely has a similar or even perhaps the same meaning in Arabic. And yes it means justice but only when it is noun, as justice is a noun. When it is adjective it means right or true. Also it means God. In the last verse of Turkish national anthem, you can see the word used two times as one referring to God and the other meaning right.


----------



## Muttaki

KAR17 said:


> Can I just say that 'hak' on wordreference is translated as justice,right etc.and that the word comes from arabic and has a similar meaning in arabic as well


Note that there is a difference between justice and _hak_ as a noun meaning justice. You can say I want justice but you can't say "Hak istiyorum." in the same sense. "Hak istiyorum" would mean "I want a share (on something)".


----------

