# Pluck yew - myths and fantasies



## Fopper

Topic: Pluck yew - myths and fantasies
Cagey, moderator 

This is apparantly where the "f" word came from. Is this true?


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## swyves

I strongly, strongly doubt it. "Fuck" is an old and perhaps necessary word; I've found Scottish references going back to the early 16th century, and an assertion citing the OED as putting it back to a German root, "ficken".

http://tafkac.org/language/etymology/fuck/fuck_etymology_of.html

for instance.

And anyway, what does plucking yew have to do with sex? This looks strongly like a euphemism made since "fuck" acquired its stigma.


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## Fopper

I found this.

<<Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured soldiers. 
Without the middle finger it would be impossible for the English soldiers to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore incapable of fighting in the future. 
The famous bow was made of the English Yew tree and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew" or "pluck you".
Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won the battle and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French and saying "We can still pluck yew. Pluck you".
[... full text here ...]>>


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## timpeac

I agree with swyves - that sounds rather improbable to me - not least because of the etymological links with German and the Romance languages.


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## swyves

I'd put in another point: this suggests that the meaning as a term of abuse came first, and the word was secondarily made to refer to sex; but, in the earliest usages it seems (this is taken from the page I cited above) to be _more_ to do with sex and _less_ obscene. 
See if you can spot my guilty secret in there....

It's said that this is the earliest instance of the word "fuck" in the English language, going back at least to 1503. In general early uses were by Scots, and one gets the impression that the word was not so obcene then as it is now, on a par with Chaucer's "swive" -- crude, perhaps, but permissible in a widely distributed work and in an age when reading was mainly for the elite.

This is from The Poems of William Dunbar, James Kinsley, ed., Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1979, 40-42. 

Here are the first two stanzas of the poem: 

<< some lines removed to comply with WR rules on quotes >>

*And he was townsyche, peirt and gukkit. He clappit fast, he kist, he chukkit*
*As with the glaikkis he were ourgane--*
*Yit be his feiris he wald haif fukkit:*
*Ye brek my hairt, my bony ane. *


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## nelliot53

Very interesting historical data!  I didn't have any idea that's where the "F" had word origininated.  In my short time here, I have noticed there is a huge amount of historical knowledge being passed on throughout these forums.

Saludos.


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## swyves

I was actually amazed that is was so recent; I thought most swear words in common use now in English were the same ones the Saxons were using before the Normal Conquest of 1066. This has set me onto looking up the etymology of other short, blunt "four letter words".


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## foxfirebrand

I'm not sure English longbowmen used the word "pluck" when they _drew_ their bowstrings-- that word appertained to harpists and lutists of the day.

At any rate, it was the string that was drawn, not the wooden part of the bow-- and that's what was made of yew.
.


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## .   1

foxfirebrand said:


> I'm not sure English longbowmen used the word "pluck" when they _drew_ their bowstrings-- that word appertained to harpists and lutists of the day.
> 
> At any rate, it was the string that was drawn, not the wooden part of the bow-- and that's what was made of yew.
> .


This is at the heart of the fallacy of that pluck yew is the origin.
As foxfirebrand points out, bows are most definitely drawn and much effort is used in the training of archers to ensure that they draw the string smoothly and release the string smoothly.
The second problem is that the string was not made of yew.

Pluck sinew may have been a better choice for this origin.

.,,


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## Kevman

Plus, if they had so much trouble pronouncing _pl_ what were they doing with a verb like _pluck_ in the first place?


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## queserasera9

Um, I don't know about any yew trees or anything of that nature, but I have a different theory.
I was told that the "f" word originated from an abbreviation of sorts. I am unclear as to the date of the term, but allegedly there was a legal term used by law enforcement to describe the very act we now describe with the infamous curse word.
My friends and I had a brief discussion of such trivia and the term "Fornication Under Carnal Knowledge" came up. This made sense to me, as it sums up the way we use the initials.
I do not know if this is true, but as I said, it makes sense.


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## ScienceDay

I heard that the word "fuck" originally meant "to strike".​


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## ScienceDay

Kevman said:


> Plus, if they had so much trouble pronouncing _pl_ what were they doing with a verb like _pluck_ in the first place?



Yeah, that's right. _pl_ is in no way difficult to pronounce. We don't have any problems pronounce "play", "plan", "plain", "plum" etc.


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## .   1

ScienceDay said:


> I heard that the word "fuck" originally meant "to strike".​


I reckon it is of Germanic origins from _fok_ meaning to hit or to strike.

.,,


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## Ban This!

Just curious why this hasn't been mentioned yet but:  It is NOT  the origin of the F word... but it is the origin of the middle finger.

The story is correct... but, it is not that the PL couldn't be pronounced because they certainly could pronounce the word pluck.

Some of you are getting a bit technichal saying that your not plucking the yew but the string.

That version of the english longbow was considered the machine gun of its day and it the use of the weapon WAS in fact referred to as plucking the yew, or plucking yew.


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## winklepicker

Ban This! said:


> Some of you are getting a bit technichal saying that you're not plucking the yew but the string.
> 
> That version of the english longbow was considered the machine gun of its day and it the use of the weapon WAS in fact referred to as plucking the yew, or plucking yew.


 
Evidence please?


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## Kelly B

The writer does not believe the notion that _pluck yew_ is the source of the expression _fuck you_. He means that _pluck yew_ looks like a euphemism that was invented during the period of time since (after) fuck became perceived as extremely rude. According to some of the posts, it was not always so rude.

(Discussing foul language within the threads is perfectly acceptable - it is only edited out of thread titles.)


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## l3376876

Kelly B said:


> The writer does not believe the notion that _pluck yew_ is the source of the expression _fuck you_. He means that _pluck yew_ looks like a euphemism that was invented during the period of time since (after) fuck became perceived as extremely rude. According to some of the posts, it was not always so rude.
> 
> (Discussing foul language within the threads is perfectly acceptable - it is only edited out of thread titles.)


 
 Thanks, Kelly. I got it.


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## maxiogee

Ban This! said:


> Just curious why this hasn't been mentioned yet but:  It is NOT  the origin of the F word... but it is the origin of the middle finger.


Not the middle finger, the 'two fingers'.

The French would routinely cut off the two string-pulling fingers of any English archers they captured when these two countries were at one of their many wars.
The English archers used the two-finger-salute as a gesture of defiance.

allegedly.





> That version of the english longbow was considered the machine gun of its day


Might you be thinking of the crossbow - the use of which was banned by a Pope?


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## winklepicker

maxiogee said:


> Not the middle finger, the 'two fingers'. The French would routinely cut off the two string-pulling fingers of any English archers they captured when these two countries were at one of their many wars. The English archers used the two-finger-salute as a gesture of defiance.
> 
> allegedly.


 
I like the allegedly. I've never bought this explanation, though it is often stated with complete assurance - nay certainty - of its veracity. I have heard it many times - but then I've had the Olympic Torch virus message many times.  It just sounds too contrived to be true. 
 
Then again, George W Bush got re-elected.


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## panjandrum

I think the entry in the Urban Legends website summarises this whole myth, fingers and f;'~s, very well.

*Claim:*   The 'middle finger salute' is derived from the defiant gestures of English archers whose fingers had been severed by the French at the Battle of Agincourt. 
*Status:* *False.*


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## Lora44

queserasera9 said:


> Um, I don't know about any yew trees or anything of that nature, but I have a different theory.
> I was told that the "f" word originated from an abbreviation of sorts. I am unclear as to the date of the term, but allegedly there was a legal term used by law enforcement to describe the very act we now describe with the infamous curse word.
> My friends and I had a brief discussion of such trivia and the term "Fornication Under Carnal Knowledge" came up. This made sense to me, as it sums up the way we use the initials.
> I do not know if this is true, but as I said, it makes sense.


 
Hehe yeah I heard something similar - Fornication Under Consent of the King. I certainly thought it was an interesting theory.



I thought it was the 'two-finger salute' that was supposedly derived from the defiant gestures of English archers, not the 'middle finger salute'. This theory would certainly make sense to me, as everyone I know of another nationality uses those two fingers to mean 2 and is not aware that it can be considered offensive in England.


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## panjandrum

If you read the link I posted a while ago, you'll find that the acronym theory is a myth too.

In case you missed it, there is a link in the Pluck Yew entry at Urban Legends to the entry for fuck CLICK HERE.

*Claim:*   The word 'fuck' derives from an acronymic phrase, either 'For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge' or 'Fornication Under Consent of the King.' 
*Status:* *False.*


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## maxiogee

My point was to show that the 'salute' which apparently derived from archery was the two-finger one.
Why would this be so? Becuase (a) the middle-finger is not widely used in England as a gesture, and (b) a single finger being lost would not significantly affect an archer.

The 'allegedly' comes from the BBC ex-satirical programme *Have I Got News For You*. The contestants(?) used to use it to cover their legal asses when they made scurrilous statements about public figures.


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## ScienceDay

panjandrum said:


> If you read the link I posted a while ago, you'll find that the acronym theory is a myth too.



That's indeed true. Before the 20th century, acronyms weren't even nearly as common as they are now.


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## doctorlcc

It's been a long time; but my Latin teacher in highschool in 1961 told us with a twinkle and a grin that in spite of some slang, the Latin word *fucere *meant "to plant."


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## anenome

I learned that in Chaucers time the crude word for making love was swive, and that this word was censored by the church by adding the less crude definition,   *F*ornication - *U*nlawful *C*arnal *K*nowledge  and that  "Fuck" came from that definition. However it is older than that I think , and most likely from the Viking or Germanic  invaders. 
Dutch  Fokken= to thrust or copulate.
Norwegian-Fukka= to copulate (my best bet)
Swedish- Focka- to strike, push or copulate; and fock=penis


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## scrotgrot

Ban This! said:


> Just curious why this hasn't been mentioned yet but:  It is NOT  the origin of the F word... but it is the origin of the middle finger.
> 
> The story is correct... but, it is not that the PL couldn't be pronounced because they certainly could pronounce the word pluck.
> 
> Some of you are getting a bit technichal saying that your not plucking the yew but the string.
> 
> That version of the english longbow was considered the machine gun of its day and it the use of the weapon WAS in fact referred to as plucking the yew, or plucking yew.



Nah, the middle finger has been used since Roman times where it was called the _digitus impudicus_, or so I've read.  It's a fairly "quick and dirty" phallic symbol though, so who knows whether it might have arisen independently in other cultures.  The archer thing is the origin (possibly apocryphal) of the English V-sign insult (like the peace sign with the two fingers, but showing the back of the hand).


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## Merrit

I have heard the myths "Fornication Under Consent of the King" and "*F*ornication - *U*nlawful *C*arnal *K*nowledge" and that "Fuck" came from those definitions, many times over the years.

The one thing that nobody has ever been able to answer satisfactorily -- Are we seriously expected to believe that, in a time when the vast majority of the population was not even literate, they were farting around with acronyms ???

m


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## PaulQ

There's a comprehensive and interesting read as to the etymology HERE. 

I was amused by the record of one, "John le Fucker" from 1278 (I wonder if he has descendants - it sounds like he should have) and a rare occupation, "DUCK F-CK-R. The man who has the care of the poultry on board a ſhip of war. ["Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," 1796]"


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## Myridon

Merrit said:


> Are we seriously expected to believe that, in a time when the vast majority of the population was not even literate, they were farting around with acronyms ???


With one or two possible exceptions in the late 1800s, the pronunciation of acronyms as words in English seems to be a 20th century invention according to everything I have ever seen on the subject.


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## Merrit

Myridon said:


> With one or two possible exceptions in the late 1800s, the pronunciation of acronyms as words in English seems to be a 20th century invention according to everything I have ever seen on the subject.


 
True. That's what I was getting at. The 'Acronym' objection has served me long and well in demolishing BS merchants who propound those derivations of the word.

I would be interested to know more about the "one or two possible exceptions in the late 1800s" -- If you think it would be off-topic here, then by PM. Thanks.

m


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## wowza

I like the _story_.
Plucking yew may be a false history but hey isn't it all?
I even found a PluckYew.com ! Haha

Anyhow, Pluck Yew all very much! :-D
-za


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## Lee the Geek

The 'f' word derived from an English court term:
Fornicating w/
Unlawful
Carnal
Knowledge.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Lee the Geek said:


> The 'f' word derived from an English court term:
> Fornicating w/
> Unlawful
> Carnal
> Knowledge.


No, it didn't.  Like most bogus claims about acronyms being the origin of words, this claim is utterly false.  For the etymology of the word, consult a dictionary such as the Oxford English Dictionary.


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## Egmont

Lee the Geek said:


> The 'f' word derived from an English court term:
> Fornicating w/
> Unlawful
> Carnal
> Knowledge.



Please see post #22, as well as several earlier ones - and the debunking of this story in post #23 and several later ones. One of the reasons that this story must be bogus is that acronyms were not pronounced as single words until the 20th century.


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## tunaafi

The origin of _fuck you_, as all academic etymologists know is the 1066  Anglo-Saxon version of 'Far queue'. The Anglo-Saxons under King Harold, fighting King Harold Hardrada at the Battle of Stamford Bridge in the north of England, learnt that William (not yet the Conqueror) had landed in the south of England, spoiling for a fight. The Anglo-Saxons sent this two-word message to William and his Normans. It meant that the Normans would have to wait until the Anglo-Saxons had defeated all other would be conquerors - they would have to go to the far, or distant queue. 'Far queue' therefore originally meant something like 'Last come, last served'.


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## PaulQ

No, no, that is all anecdote!

*Fuck you* was originally the Norman-French _“fer queue”_ -> iron tail. 

It was used to describe a female hunting hound who refused all attempts at mating. This soon became used figuratively as an insult for someone who was cowardly or unadventurous and thus not worthy of consideration.


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## owlman5

In light of the wildly different claims in posts #37 and #38 regarding what somebody might have said nearly a thousand years ago, I think it's probably wise to conclude that the origin of _fuck you_ remains uncertain.


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## heypresto

For what it's worth the OED's earliest citation for 'fuck you' is from 1905:

L. Schindler Testimony 20 Dec. in People State of N.Y. Respondent, against Charles McKenna (1907) (N.Y. Supreme Court) 37: _Murray said to me, ‘Fuck you, I will give you more the same.’ And as he said that, I grabbed the two of them_.

(Though how a 1905 quote can refer to a 1907 court case is a mystery  )

[Sorry: Over-long quotation removed.  DonnyB - moderator]


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## tunaafi

owlman5 said:


> In light of the wildly different claims in posts #37 and #38 regarding what somebody might have said nearly a thousand years ago, I think it's probably wise to conclude that the origin of _fuck you_ remains uncertain.


F*** Y**


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## owlman5

tunaafi said:


> F*** Y***


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## Uncle Jack

tunaafi said:


> The origin of _fuck you_, as all academic etymologists know is the 1066  Anglo-Saxon version of 'Far queue'. The Anglo-Saxons under King Harold, fighting King Harold Hardrada at the Battle of Stamford Bridge in the north of England, learnt that William (not yet the Conqueror) had landed in the south of England, spoiling for a fight. The Anglo-Saxons sent this two-word message to William and his Normans. It meant that the Normans would have to wait until the Anglo-Saxons had defeated all other would be conquerors - they would have to go to the far, or distant queue. 'Far queue' therefore originally meant something like 'Last come, last served'.





PaulQ said:


> No, no, that is all anecdote!
> 
> *Fuck you* was originally the Norman-French _“fer queue”_ -> iron tail.
> 
> It was used to describe a female hunting hound who refused all attempts at mating. This soon became used figuratively as an insult for someone who was cowardly or unadventurous and thus not worthy of consideration.


Oh, I can't have thought about it in years, but I did enjoy Call My Bluff.

Now, which one of you is Frank Muir?


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## tunaafi

I live in the Nordern part of the country.


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## Uncle Jack

tunaafi said:


> I live in the Nordern part of the country.


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## PaulQ

tunaafi said:


> I live in the Nordern part of the country.


  And my situation could not be Muir different.


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## tunaafi

At least you're frank.


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## Egmont

tunaafi said:


> The origin of _fuck you_, as all academic etymologists know is the 1066  Anglo-Saxon version of 'Far queue'...





PaulQ said:


> ... *Fuck you* was originally the Norman-French _“fer queue”_ -> iron tail...



At the risk of taking away some of the fun here, people who come to WRF to learn English should understand that these two posts, and some of the later replies to them, are jokes (puns) based on words that sound a bit like "fuck you." (The French phrase, in particular, is not how one would say "iron tail" in French, but this is the English Only forum so I won't suggest improvements. A colloquial translation wouldn't sound like "fuck you.") Don't take them as serious attempts to explain the origin of this phrase.


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## PaulQ

tunaafi said:


> At least you're frank.


   We have a winner!


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## RM1(SS)

PaulQ said:


> "DUCK F-CK-R. The man who has the care of the poultry on board a ſhip of war. ["Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue," 1796]"


That's even better than "pecker checker", US Navy slang for a hospital corpsman.

Re posts 43-47: I'm not familiar with _Call My Bluff_, but I loved _My Word!_


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