# the [y] ending on -ille: rhymes with ceci?



## john_riemann_soong

I would like some opinion. I'm writing a poem, would you consider the [y]  at the end of words sound to rhyme with the _ sound? 

For example, would you consider "ceci" to rhyme with "gentille"? [y] is a really weak sonorant at the end, and it's barely pronounced, especially since a vowel precedes it, but I'm wondering if it's significant enough that it doesn't rhyme. It sort of rhymes to my ear._


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## carolineR

Sorry. Ceci rime avec gentil, pas avec gentille


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## john_riemann_soong

A correction, I meant the [j] sound, sorry. 

I know that "gentille" has the [j] ending at the end, but my question is, does that throw off the sound so much that it makes it not rhyme? I can barely detect it. 

It's not like it's being pronounced with an exaggerated [j] sound, such that it sounds like "gentiyehh" (to phoneticise in English), is it?


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## gilou

> I would like some opinion. I'm writing a poem, would you consider the [j] at the end of words sound to rhyme with the _ sound?
> _


_ no.
A+,_


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## Qcumber

Soong you cannot make a vowel rhyme with the corresponding semi-consonant or glide.
/i/ cannot rhyme with /j/.
/u/ cannot rhyme with /w/

/i/ can only rhyme with itself.


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## Franglais1969

Try listening to *Pas Gentille *by *Françosie Hardy*, it may give you an idea.


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## john_riemann_soong

Qcumber said:


> Soong you cannot make a vowel rhyme with the corresponding semi-consonant or glide.
> /i/ cannot rhyme with /j/.
> /u/ cannot rhyme with /w/
> 
> /i/ can only rhyme with itself.



I was going to think of the pairs "blue" and "wow", or the Mandarin-Chinese "liu" and so forth and agree with you, then I just realised I'm not using the same vowels. It just so happens that Mandarin doesn't have any finals ending with "w" either. And I just realised that many of English's final w's are silent: _law_, _sow_, _crow_, etc. "Wow" is one of those rare ones. 

Ahh, it so happens that I can't really imagine a word like "bluw" in English or "liuw" in Mandarin to test your statement. But I suppose that's because I'm constrained by my English sense of phonology. 

Perhaps if I compose a nonsensical (Jabberwockyish) poem:
_
roses are red
violets are bluewh 
it's quite saed 
I ain't got any alphabet stu. _

My question was more of the lines of "how noticeable is that ending sonorant [j] anyway?" In English I do notice that "bluewh" sounds much more distinct from "blue" than I would perceive "gentille" and "gentil". This might suggest that I don't detect the large difference simply because I'm not _un locuteur natif_ of French, but yet ...


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## Qcumber

[...] 
In French, the ending of *gentille* [žã 'ti.j] is quite clear.
(sorry can't adjust the sizes)


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## john_riemann_soong

I found the verse that goes:
_
Mais s'ils se doutaient à quel point je t'aime
Ils diraient
"Cette fille qui n'est pas gentille
Pourrait bien changer"_

This is really intereesting, because I wouldn't think "aime" would rhyme with "gentille", unless the e-muet is being pronounced because it's in a poem?


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## Qcumber

Here are some words that rhyme with gentille.
bille, chenille, coquille, famille, faucille, fille, gorille, jonquille, lentille, pacotille, pupille, quille, vrille
Hope this helps.


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## broglet

john_riemann_soong said:


> I found the verse that goes:
> 
> _Mais s'ils se doutaient à quel point je t'aime_
> _Ils diraient_
> _"Cette fille qui n'est pas gentille_
> _Pourrait bien changer"_
> 
> This is really intereesting, because I wouldn't think "aime" would rhyme with "gentille", unless the e-muet is being pronounced because it's in a poem?


it still wouldn't rhyme ... and diraient doesn't rhyme with changer either


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## Franglais1969

broglet said:


> it still wouldn't rhyme ... and diraient doesn't rhyme with changer either


 
I only suggested that the thread starter listen to the song, so they could hear how *gentille *is pronounced, and why it isn't the same as "ceci."


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## Gez

john_riemann_soong said:


> I found the verse that goes:
> _
> Mais s'ils se doutaient à quel point je t'aime
> Ils diraient
> "Cette fille qui n'est pas gentille
> Pourrait bien changer"_
> 
> This is really intereesting, because I wouldn't think "aime" would rhyme with "gentille", unless the e-muet is being pronounced because it's in a poem?



It doesn't rhyme at all.

If you want to make that verse rhyme, you'd have to write it thus:
_ Mais s'ils se doutaient (A)
à quel point je t'aime Ils diraient (A)
"Cette fille (B)
qui n'est pas gentille (B)
Pourrait bien changer" (C)_

Depending on the pronunciation, the C line may rhyme with the A -- especially in southern France, where the è is often pronounced é when at the end of a word.


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## john_riemann_soong

I happened to have heard this song, which includes the lines: 
_
Déjà nos cheveux s'emmêlent
Comme des cheveux de jumelles,
_ 
When I heard it I did note they rhyme really well ... although I'm not sure it's because the [l] in "_s'emmêlent_" is toned down, or it's because the [j] in _jumelles_ is being toned down to suit the other.


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## konungursvia

They don't rime: -ille is the ending [ij] whereas ceci ends with just _._


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## viera

Qcumber said:


> Here are some words that rhyme with gentille.
> bille, chenille, coquille, famille, faucille, fille, gorille, jonquille, lentille, pacotille, pupille, quille, vrille
> Hope this helps.


Exceptions:  tranquille, mille - the ending is pronounced *il*.


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## broglet

viera said:


> Exceptions: tranquille, mille - the ending is pronounced *il*.


... and, commoner still, ville


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## konungursvia

Also, the [y] ending means the sound of the vowel in "tu" not "ceci", which is the _ ending if you want to refer to it in phonetic symbols._


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## Qcumber

Soong wrote: 
"Déjà nos cheveux s'emmêlent
Comme des cheveux de jumelles,"

They don't quite rhyme
-mêlent : mè:l
-melles : mèl

Quite an interesting example as officially French doesn't make the difference between normal vowels and lenghtened vowels (it has no short Vs long contrast). For instance, some people say *bêle* and *belle* are pronounced the same.
L'agneau bêle.
Elle est belle.
Others maintain there is a difference, and I can hear it myself when such words are pronounced by standard French speakers.
What's your opinion?


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## Malcoha

In my opinion, there is a difference in most cases (emmêlent and jumelles sound different), but in a song or a poem you may stress some part of the word to highlight the "musicality" of the whole. I think it's almost possible to make the -ille of "gentille" sound almost as short as in "ceci". But of course it is not purely a rhyme...


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## broglet

Qcumber said:


> Soong wrote:
> "Déjà nos cheveux s'emmêlent
> Comme des cheveux de jumelles,"
> 
> They don't quite rhyme
> -mêlent : mè:l
> -melles : mèl
> 
> Quite an interesting example as officially French doesn't make the difference between normal vowels and lenghtened vowels (it has no short Vs long contrast). For instance, some people say *bêle* and *belle* are pronounced the same.
> L'agneau bêle.
> Elle est belle.
> Others maintain there is a difference, and I can hear it myself when such words are pronounced by standard French speakers.
> What's your opinion?


I think there's a difference. It doesn't seem to me to be the length of the vowel, but the width of the pronouncing mouth .... by contrast with gentille/ceci where the key difference is still not length but seems more a product of the position and shape of the tongue.


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## john_riemann_soong

_Jumelle_ has no [j] sound? Ah, my mstake then. In the song the vowels really dominate over the consonants so I wasn't sure.


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## john_riemann_soong

Malcoha said:


> In my opinion, there is a difference in most cases (emmêlent and jumelles sound different), but in a song or a poem you may stress some part of the word to highlight the "musicality" of the whole. I think it's almost possible to make the -ille of "gentille" sound almost as short as in "ceci". But of course it is not purely a rhyme...



Most people so far have said "they don't rhyme", because naturally, their phones are different. My question is, is the [j] sound strong enough to render a rhyme impossible? To me, there is no vowel coming after the sonorant at all, such that [j] represents _.

Often what interests me is the sonorant [w], or it's friend [ɥ] which especially interests me because it's found in huit and the Mandarin-Chinese yue. Is the ending at the end of gentille anything like the beginning sonorant of huit?_


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## Malcoha

john_riemann_soong said:


> Most people so far have said "they don't rhyme", because naturally, their phones are different. My question is, is the [j] sound strong enough to render a rhyme impossible? To me, there is no vowel coming after the sonorant at all, such that [j] represents _.
> 
> Often what interests me is the sonorant [w], or it's friend [ɥ] which especially interests me because it's found in huit and the Mandarin-Chinese yue. Is the ending at the end of gentille anything like the beginning sonorant of huit?_


_

To my native french-speaking ears it sounds really different, though I'm not a phonetic specialist. About the "-ille" question, it would be easier to make it rhyme with a longer  (I don't know how it should be written) like in vie, poulie, momie,...These have a pronunciation very close to gentille._


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## Gez

john_riemann_soong said:


> or it's because the [j] in _jumelles_ is being toned down to suit the other.


 
 There's no [j] in jumelles.

 You only have [j] in French if you have "y" or "ill" (and even then, not always). At the end of a word, it's usually "-ille" (though I have seen "-iye" for some words borrowind from African languages).

The double-L, "ll," by itself is not enough to make a [j], you need a "i" in front of it. "Une vieille fille," for example, has [j] at the end of both words. "Une belle malle" has no [j] sound at all.



john_riemann_soong said:


> Most people so far have said "they don't rhyme", because naturally, their phones are different. My question is, is the [j] sound strong enough to render a rhyme impossible? To me, there is no vowel coming after the sonorant at all, such that [j] represents _._


_
Yes it is. 

Often what interests me is the sonorant [w], or it's friend [ɥ] which especially interests me because it's found in huit and the Mandarin-Chinese yue. Is the ending at the end of gentille anything like the beginning sonorant of huit?[/quote]
No, that's a different glide. It sounds very different._


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## Qcumber

The IPA symbol for the glide represented by the letter <u> in French pluie "rain" is replaced by an empty square bullet on my screen, and I suppose many others’, so I suggest to use <ÿ> to represent it, hence [plÿi:].
 
Unless I’m mistaken, Chin. yuè [jue4] 月 "moon" has the glide [j], but not the glide [ÿ].


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## john_riemann_soong

Qcumber said:


> Unless I’m mistaken, Chin. yuè [jue4] 月 "moon" has the glide [j], but not the glide [ÿ].



Not really, just like _yi_ (one) doesn't really pronounce the "y", it's sort of like a vowel initialisation, but to have it stand on its own would be a rather illegal syllable so a sonorant is used to initiate it. (I didn't consciously realise this myself until it was pointed out to me.)


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## Qcumber

I didn't know that. Thanks a lot.


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## john_riemann_soong

Revisiting this again. There's a Les Miserables song that goes: 

 C'est une poupée dans la vitrine
 Qui me regarde et qui s'enn*uie*.
 Je crois qu'elle se cherche une maman,
 Et moi je veux qu'elle soit ma f*ille*


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## Qcumber

john_riemann_soong said:


> C'est une poupée dans la vitrine
> Qui me regarde et qui s'enn*uie*.
> Je crois qu'elle se cherche une maman,
> Et moi je veux qu'elle soit ma f*ille*


These lines do not rhyme, do they? What would "vitrine" rhyme with?


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## john_riemann_soong

I haven't listened to the French version of the piece ... I believe it's sung by the young Cosette where the English Les Miserables does "Castle on the Cloud". If I put the French one to that tune it seems to rhyme. 

"Vitrine" doesn't have to rhyme with "maman" - in the English one they rhyme the 3rd and 4th lines and don't rhyme the 1st or 2nd, or rhyme the 2nd and 3rd but not the 1st or 4th.


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## Agnès E.

No, they don't. The relevant rhymes might be found in other paragraphs.


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## john_riemann_soong

Another verse (if I can be so permitted): 

C'est une poupée dans la vitrine;
 Je la regarde et elle m'app*elle*.
 Si seulement je savais écrire...
 Je la demanderais au Père No*ël

*The 2nd and 4th lines rhyme but not the first and third.


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## Qcumber

john_riemann_soong said:


> C'est une poupée dans la vitrine;
> Je la regarde et elle m'app*elle*.
> Si seulement je savais écrire...
> Je la demanderais au Père No*ël*
> The 2nd and 4th lines rhyme but not the first and third.


I have a dictionary of French rhymes.
"Appelle" rhymes with "pelle, chapelle, épelle, pèle".
"Noël" only rhymes with "réel".
So your two lines do not rhyme.


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## Grop

john_riemann_soong said:


> C'est une poupée dans la vitrine
> Qui me regarde et qui s'ennuie.
> Je crois qu'elle se cherche une maman,
> Et moi je veux qu'elle soit ma fille



S'ennuie does not rhyme with fille today. May be it did 150 years ago: there is a [j] sound in the infinitive form s'ennuyer, maybe it was present in s'ennuie at this time.

Consider paie and payer: I think paie rhymes with abbeille.


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## Qcumber

Grop said:


> S'ennuie does not rhyme with fille today. May be it did 150 years ago: there is a [j] sound in the infinitive form s'ennuyer, maybe it was present in s'ennuie at this time.
> Consider paie and payer: I think paie rhymes with abeille.


Are you sure? Arent "paie" and "paye" pronounced differently? 
Anyway why keep looking for rhymes in lines that do not rhyme?


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## Isanou

Yes, we write paie, but say "paye"


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## Qcumber

Isanou said:


> Yes, we write paie, but say "paye"


Le Petit Robert: paye [pèj], paie [pè] 
([è] for the equivalent phonetic symbol)


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## john_riemann_soong

Qcumber said:


> I have a dictionary of French rhymes.
> "Appelle" rhymes with "pelle, chapelle, épelle, pèle".
> "Noël" only rhymes with "réel".
> So your two lines do not rhyme.



Really? I can't tell the difference: 

Plus "Noël" doesn't have /e/, only /ɛ/. Wiktionary gives "appel(le)" as /ɛ/ too. 

Plus, the /j/ is a sonorant and and as far as it goes I think it only reduces it slightly to a vowel rhyme at most, with very similar endings, just like "feet" and "feed" ...

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Prononciation


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## DearPrudence

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Qcumber*
> 
> 
> I have a dictionary of French rhymes.
> "Appelle" rhymes with "pelle, chapelle, épelle, pèle".
> "Noël" only rhymes with "réel".
> So your two lines do not rhyme.
> 
> Really? I can't tell the difference:


 

I can't hear the difference either.
But I can't for "emmêlent" & "jumelles" either.  
Just as a joke, my grand-mother from the north of France/Belgium makes all those words rhyme /i/:
"les filles
qui jouent aux billes
et aux quilles
aiment le persil
et sourient"
But that's just a weird way of pronouncing


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