# All IIR languages: Garlic



## Alfaaz

This was split from this thread. Please contirbute about 'garlic' here.

Any views on the following?


> Thom and the Arabic ثوم both for Garlic (according to Shan and Ahmed Garlic Achaars!)....? (Maybe it is a direct Arabic borrowing, but if that's the case, in Urdu one would expect it to be pronounced soum and not thoum..?)


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Thom and the Arabic ثوم both for Garlic (according to Shan and Ahmed Garlic Achaars!)....? (Maybe it is a direct Arabic borrowing, but if that's the case, in Urdu one would expect it to be pronounced soum and not thoum..?)



Yes, I do have views on this. I think the Arabs have pinched our تھوم and so that we don't accuse them of "theft", they have disguised it as ثوم !


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## eskandar

QURESHPOR said:


> I think the Arabs have pinched our تھوم and so that we don't accuse them of "theft", they have disguised it as ثوم !


Or maybe it's you all who stole ثوم from the Arabs and disguised it as تهوم !  The root th-w-m for garlic is solidly Semitic, cf. Akkadian 'shumu', Hebrew 'shum', Maltese 'tewm'. Is تهوم a Punjabi word only, or is it also used in Urdu? My sources give لہسن for garlic in Urdu.


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## Alfaaz

> Is تهوم a Punjabi word only, or is it also used in Urdu? My sources give لہسن for garlic in Urdu.



Guessing both; it is an Urdu word, and also used in Punjabi; (sometimes seems to depend on the dish also); Source!

Edit: Just checked and found out that تھوم is actually Arabic and we "stole" and changed the spelling of it in Urdu as Eskander has suggested!


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## eskandar

Thanks! Looks like it's time to start using urduenglishdictionary.org as my source.


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## Alfaaz

> Thanks! Looks like it's time to start using urduenglishdictionary.org as my source.



Your welcome! haha...it is good for a quick reference...


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## Qureshpor

It goes with out saying that what I said was said in a light hearted manner. Nevertheless, I would be interested in knowing if members can come up with any other Urdu/Punjabi words (or words from any other Indic language for that matter) where the Arabic theta sound (our "se") has been transformed to a "th" as in "thaalii" (plate). If no other word seems to be in existence, then it is rather odd why one word has been changed from theta+aum to "thom". (Please note, there would be no majhuul "o" in Arabic).


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## darush

Garlic is سیر sir(seer) in Persian.


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## Alfaaz

> Garlic is سیر sir(seer) in Persian.



Thanks for the contribution darush! 

Urdu seems to have three seers listed (according to one dictionary):
Seer: Sanskrit: Name of a weight
Seer: Farsi: stooping, bent downward, full, satiated, sated, tired, سودہ (also from Farsi)
Seer: Farsi: garlic, تھوم , لَہْسَن
Not sure, but I don't think seer is used commonly in Urdu for Garlic...but,.... 

Thanks for your answer! Got to learn a new word for garlic!


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for the contribution darush!
> 
> Urdu seems to have three seers listed (according to one dictionary):
> Seer: Sanskrit: Name of a weight
> Seer: Farsi: stooping, bent downward, full, satiated, sated, tired, سودہ (also from Farsi)
> Seer: Farsi: garlic, تھوم , لَہْسَن
> Not sure, but I don't think seer is used commonly in Urdu for Garlic...but,....
> 
> Thanks for your answer! Got to learn a new word for garlic!




The weight is "ser" and so is the word for being full/satisfied (at least in Urdu, it is "ser")


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## Alfaaz

> The weight is "ser" and so is the word for being full/satisfied (at least in Urdu, it is "ser")



Thanks for the correction! (obviously wasn't paying attention to what was being read by the eyes or typed on the screen!)


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## BP.

Could we have several members' input on how they pronounce the word لہسن? Thanks.


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## Alfaaz

> Could we have several members' input on how they pronounce the word لہسن? Thanks.



The dictionary shows it as lah-san, but its usually pronounced as leh-san on cooking shows. Is the dictionary correct? lah-san sounds very similar to the Punjabi lassan....

Edit: How do you pronounce it?


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> The dictionary shows it as lah-san, but its usually pronounced as leh-san on cooking shows. Is the dictionary correct? lah-san sounds very similar to the Punjabi lassan....
> 
> Edit: How do you pronounce it?




I have heard it "lahsan/lehsan" as well as "lahsun/lehsun). but I would suggest that in Urdu, it is the former. In Punjabi, it is "thom" or "lassaNR".


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Your welcome! haha...it is good for a quick reference...



*You are* welcome! You are not the only one; recently I have made one or two unforgivable errors, mainly due to lack of time and consequently have been a little careless.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for the correction Qureshpor! 
You're welcome!


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## darush

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for the contribution darush!
> 
> Urdu seems to have three seers listed (according to one dictionary):
> Seer: Sanskrit: Name of a weight
> Seer: Farsi: stooping, bent downward, full, satiated, sated, tired, سودہ (also from Farsi)
> Seer: Farsi: garlic, تھوم , لَہْسَن
> Not sure, but I don't think seer is used commonly in Urdu for Garlic...but,....
> 
> Thanks for your answer! Got to learn a new word for garlic!


you're welcome,
seer is also an old weight unit in Iran
see is an adjective for describing colors meams, deep or dark
deep blue: abi e seer آبی سیر


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## BP.

Alfaaz said:


> The dictionary shows it as lah-san, but its  usually pronounced as leh-san on cooking shows. Is the dictionary  correct? lah-san sounds very similar to the Punjabi lassan....
> 
> Edit: How do you pronounce it?





> AND





QURESHPOR said:


> I have heard it "lahsan/lehsan" as well as "lahsun/lehsun). but I would suggest that in Urdu, it is the former. In Punjabi, it is "thom" or "lassaNR".



Sorry for the late reply. I had missed your posts earlier.

We in my very immediate family have it so: _lehsun/lahsun_. It is one of those words I got snickered at for. Like baladiyah. I'd be posting some more in new threads.


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## Faylasoof

Just to add my bit here, many Urdu lexicons give _*laihsan*_ as the correct form. But things are never simple in our language family /_ pariivaar_ / _xaandaan_ or _Tabar_, if you wish!

In our grand (for some grandiloquent!) _lakhanvii _speech many (if not most) say it as* lassan*. Platts gives the following:





  H لسن लसुन _lasun_, *लस्सन lassan*, or लसन _lasan_ [Prk.  लसुणं; S. लशुनं or लसुनं], s.m. Garlic, _Allium sativum_; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. _lahsan_, q.v.).


Interestingly, he has no 'h' anywhere! It'll be good to find out when and from where the 'h' crept in and the change in the vowelling as well.


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## Alfaaz

All following posts split from here.



			
				QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> neither am I aware of an "Urdu dish" that is made from Punjabi thom!


Could this be another word that you have considered to be only a Punjabi word, but it is actually used in Urdu as well? تھوم , garlic


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Could this be another word that you have considered to be only a Punjabi word, but it is actually used in Urdu as well? تھوم , garlic



In Arabic it is ثوم.  "thom" is not listed in any of our reputable dictionaries like Platts, Nur-ul-LuGhaat, Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English dictionary. So, I would not consider "thom" to be part of fasiiH Urdu.


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## Alfaaz

QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> In Arabic it is ثوم. "thom" is not listed in any of our reputable dictionaries like Platts, Nur-ul-LuGhaat, Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English dictionary. So, I would not consider "thom" to be part of fasiiH Urdu.


Thanks for the information QP SaaHib! I saw it in these two dictionaries, heard it from a few Urdu speakers (who were not "Punjabi or Arabic-influenced"), we also discussed this in the Garlic thread, so thought that maybe this term is also used in Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for the information QP SaaHib! I saw it in these two dictionaries, heard it from a few Urdu speakers (who were not "Punjabi or Arabic-influenced"), we also discussed this in the Garlic thread, so thought that maybe this term is also used in Urdu.



They of course would have known better and used "lahsan"!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> "qaiNch" or "thom" or both?



"thom". For me it is Punjabi word which would make my family members who are not familar with Punjabi rasie brows. I think the majority of Urdu speakers who are not familiar with Punjabi would give blank stares upon hearing this word. Whether it is recorded by some Urdu site or not, it is not a mainstream Urdu word for garlic. I'm not going to devote any space for the instances people would use ''thom'' and other words when speaking Urdu to give it a local, ironical or bucolic touch on the one hand or those who wouldn't simply know it is not Urdu and go on using it unconsciously.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> In Arabic it is ثوم.  "thom" is not listed in any of our reputable dictionaries like Platts, Nur-ul-LuGhaat, Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Kitaabistaan's 20th Century Urdu-English dictionary. So, I would not consider "thom" to be part of fasiiH Urdu.


I follow you on this point and let me say with emphasis, it has nothing to do with fasiiH Urdu. I am even not so sure of Arabic connection of Punjabi thom.

Alfaaz, I have also always considered it to be a Punjabi word, but it is not used in Urdu.


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## bakshink

In Punjabi we use lassan more commonly here in North India. I am not sure how many people still call it 'thom'. As far as I know in Hindi it is written as "lehsun"- लहसुन


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## Qureshpor

bakshink said:


> In Punjabi we use lassan more commonly here in North India. I am not sure how many people still call it 'thom'. As far as I know in Hindi it is written as "lehsun"- लहसुन



In Punjabi, I have mainly heard and used "thom". lahsan was always an Urdu word for us. This does not of course mean that lahsan is never used in Punjabi.


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## Faylasoof

bakshink said:


> In Punjabi we use lassan more commonly here in North India. I am not sure how many people still call it 'thom'. As far as I know in Hindi it is written as "lehsun"- लहसुन


 _*lassan *_is what we use as well in our Urdu, as I mentioned earlier:



Faylasoof said:


> Just to add my bit here, many Urdu lexicons give _*laihsan*_ as the correct form. But things are never simple in our language family /_ pariivaar_ / _xaandaan_ or _Tabar_, if you wish!
> 
> In our grand (for some grandiloquent!) _lakhanvii _speech many (if not most) say it as* lassan*. Platts gives the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> H لسن लसुन _lasun_, *लस्सन lassan*, or लसन _lasan_ [Prk.  लसुणं; S. लशुनं or लसुनं], s.m. Garlic, _Allium sativum_; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. _lahsan_, q.v.).
> 
> 
> Interestingly, he has no 'h' anywhere! It'll be good to find out when  and from where the 'h' crept in and the change in the vowelling as  well.


 ... and for us it is  always _*lassan*_ and never _lashan _(_pronounced laihsan_) !! As you can see, Platts too give _*lassan*_ for garlic


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Just to add my bit here, many Urdu lexicons give _*laihsan*_ as the correct form. But things are never simple in our language family /_ pariivaar_ / _xaandaan_ or _Tabar_, if you wish!
> 
> In our grand (for some grandiloquent!) _lakhanvii _speech many (if not most) say it as* lassan*. Platts gives the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> H لسن लसुन _lasun_, *लस्सन lassan*, or लसन _lasan_ [Prk.  लसुणं; S. लशुनं or लसुनं], s.m. Garlic, _Allium sativum_; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. _lahsan_, q.v.).
> 
> 
> Interestingly, he has no 'h' anywhere! It'll be good to find out when and from where the 'h' crept in and the change in the vowelling as well.



Faylasoof SaaHib, this is interesting. I must admit I have always seen it written as "lhsn" (pronounced lahsan). Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives lahsan/lahsun and lassan. Nur-ul-LuGhaat does not have a separate entry for lassan but under lahsan it says, "begumaat kii zabaan par lassan hai aur Rashk ne lahsan bar vazn-i-aHsan Ghair fasiiH likhaa hai". So, it is difficult to say if the h has crept in or dropped out.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, this is interesting. I must admit I have always seen it written as "lhsn" (pronounced lahsan). Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives lahsan/lahsun and lassan. Nur-ul-LuGhaat does not have a separate entry for lassan but under lahsan it says, "begumaat kii zabaan par lassan hai aur Rashk ne lahsan bar vazn-i-aHsan Ghair fasiiH likhaa hai". So, it is difficult to say if the h has crept in or dropped out.



If Platts can be of any help then one can say that it rather crept in, if we look at the etymology he provides. There is no ''h'' in Sanskrit or Prakrit words.

_لسن लसुन lasun, लस्सन lassan, or लसन lasan [Prk. _*लसुणं*; S.* लशुनं *or* लसुनं*_], s.m. Garlic, Allium sativum; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. lahsan, q.v.)._
_لہسن__लहसन__ lahsan, or __लहसुन__ lahsun [S. _*लशुनं*_], s.m. Garlic, Allium sativum;—a freckle; a blotch; a wrinkle.

_It seems funny but it is as if the 'h' has shifted places in *lahsun* compared with Sanskrit *lashunaM.

*On the other hand, Platts provides a few derivates under _lahsan_, which may point to the usage of _la*h*san_ by the time he compiled his lexicon.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof* Just to add my bit here, many Urdu lexicons give *laihsan* as the correct form. But things are never simple in our language family /_ pariivaar_ / _xaandaan_ or _Tabar_, if you wish!
> 
> In our grand (for some grandiloquent!) _lakhanvii _speech many (if not most) say it as _*lassan*_. Platts gives the following:
> H لسن लसुन _lasun_, *लस्सन *_*lassan*_, or लसन _lasan_ [Prk. लसुणं; S. लशुनं or लसुनं], s.m. Garlic, _Allium sativum_; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. _lahsan_, q.v.).
> 
> Interestingly, he has no 'h' anywhere! It'll be good to find out when  and from where the 'h' crept in and the change in the vowelling as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Faylasoof SaaHib, this is interesting. I must admit I have always seen it written as "lhsn" (pronounced lahsan). Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives lahsan/lahsun and lassan. Nur-ul-LuGhaat does not have a separate entry for lassan but under lahsan it says, "begumaat kii zabaan par lassan hai aur Rashk ne lahsan bar vazn-i-aHsan Ghair fasiiH likhaa hai". So, it is difficult to say if the h has crept in or dropped out.
Click to expand...

 QP SaaHib, there seem to be two accepted spellings in Urdu, viz. _lassan_ and _lahsan_ (pronounced _laihsan_) but for us it is always the former and it seems the same is true also for some Punjabiphones, as Bakshink SaaHib noted that he too says _lassan_.

... and in something of a confirmation of what Platts has at the end, we use _lassan_ also for a _birthmark_!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, there seem to be two accepted spellings in Urdu, viz. _lassan_ and _lahsan_ (pronounced _laihsan_) but for us it is always the former and it seems the same is true also for some Punjabiphones, as Bakshink SaaHib noted that he too says _lassan_.
> 
> ... and in something of a confirmation of what Platts has at the end, we use _lassan_ also for a _birthmark_!



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I questioned whether h had crept in or dropped out in my previous post. Afterwards I realised what you really meant (in terms of etymology) and marrish SaaHib has reiterated what you had stated.

I have certainly heard Punjabi people use lassan/lassaNR often enough but my feeling (as far as Pakistani Punjabi side of Punjab is concerned, at least) is that this pronunciation could be under the influence of Urdu. I could be wrong of course. In very rural (and once remote) part of the Punjab that some of my relatives are connected with always used "thom". lassan would have been quite foreign to them. To the younger generation with Urdu education background, lassan might have overtaken thom. Just observations and conjectures.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> If Platts can be of any help then one can say that it rather crept in, if we look at the etymology he provides. There is no ''h'' in Sanskrit or Prakrit words.
> 
> _لسن लसुन lasun, लस्सन lassan, or लसन lasan [Prk. _*लसुणं*; S.* लशुनं *or* लसुनं*_], s.m. Garlic, Allium sativum; a clove of the root of garlic;—a freckle, a blotch (syn. lahsan, q.v.)._
> _لہسن__लहसन__ lahsan, or __लहसुन__ lahsun [S. _*लशुनं*_], s.m. Garlic, Allium sativum;—a freckle; a blotch; a wrinkle.
> 
> _It seems funny but it is as if the 'h' has shifted places in *lahsun* compared with Sanskrit *lashunaM.
> 
> *On the other hand, Platts provides a few derivates under _lahsan_, which may point to the usage of _la*h*san_ by the time he compiled his lexicon.


 Position shift of both vowels and consonants in words is a known phenomenon in some languages of both Indo-European and Semitic families. Perhaps in others too but these are the ones I'm familiar with. This may explain the odd position of 'h' in lahsun / lahsan. Otherwise it'll be hard to explain!


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## Alfaaz

QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> Alfaaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information QP SaaHib! I saw it in these two dictionaries, heard it from a few Urdu speakers (who were not "Punjabi or Arabic-influenced"), we also discussed this in the Garlic thread, so thought that maybe this term is also used in Urdu.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They of course would have known better and used "lahsan"!
Click to expand...

 ; Hope this won't be seen in the wrong light by everyone, but QP SaaHib: Which sounds more "Punjabi" to you...lassan or thom? You'll probably say both...but still wanted to ask.

ab hum is meiN thom shaamil kareN ge...
ab hum is meiN lassan shaamil kareN ge...

Maybe it's just a matter of different experiences and perceptions...(to me, thom sounds "more Urdu" than "lassan", perhaps because of the "ss"....)


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Position shift of both vowels and consonants in words is a known phenomenon in some languages of both Indo-European and Semitic families. Perhaps in others too but these are the ones I'm familiar with. This may explain the odd position of 'h' in lahsun / lahsan. Otherwise it'll be hard to explain!


Indeed, such phenomenon exists and it is also applicable to Urdu-Hindi. Still the hint I suggested looks nice graphically in the English transliteration where h which is used in combination with s to depict the shiin sound moves towards the word's beginning. As if shiin is analyzed into h+s. I have no idea whether what I'm going to say has some ground in the historical grammar or phonology of the prakrits and what you can call, medieval language but there might be occurences of such (d)evolution of Sanskrit shakaara (the consonant depicted by shiin) into h+s in similar circumstances as in word lashun(-aM) which we see having developed into a-*h-s*-u/a. Another free speculation of this kind could be that Prakrits and/or apabhraNsha forms of the language(s) used to be tonal at some stage and substitute the subsequent loss of the tonal value with an h. 

I don't have any material handy at the moment which could verify any of these hypotheses, so they can be wrong of course, but at least they don't contradict one another!


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Maybe it's just a matter of different experiences and perceptions...*(to me, thom sounds "more Urdu" than "lassan", perhaps because of the "ss".*...)


I hope you don't mind my chiming in into the discussion but what is there in thom that would make it sound more Urdu than 'ss'? The very basic words lassii, assii, assalaam, the recently mentioned tamassuk sound very Urdu to me while 
t-hom absolutely not! On its turn it sounds, believe me, very Punjabi to me. 
You mentioned experiences, have you heard t-hom used in Urdu and what were the circumstances? Or maybe it is found somewhere in writing in some old or new piece of writing composed in eloquent Urdu?


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