# Does "Herr" rhyme with "der"?



## James Bates

Does "Herr" ("Mister") rhyme with "der" ("the") in Standard German? If not, what's the difference?
Thanks.


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## floridasnowbird

No, "Herr" does not rhyme with "der".

Pronunciation of the "e" in "Herr" = short (due to double "r")
pronunciation of the "e" in "der"  = long  (single "r")


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## heidita

floridasnowbird said:


> No, "Herr" does not rhyme with "der".
> 
> Pronunciation of the "e" in "Herr" = short (due to double "r")
> pronunciation of the "e" in "der" = long (single "r")


 
This _should_ be the difference, but in standard German, they are pronounced the same. I suppose this depends on the region.


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## floridasnowbird

heidita said:


> This _should_ be the difference, but in standard German, they are pronounced the same. I suppose this depends on the region.


 
Doesn't _standard _German mean the language (including the pronunciation) does *not* depend on the region?

But I agree that in some areas of Germany (especially in NRW ) there is very little difference in pronouncing "der" and "Herr".


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## Whodunit

heidita said:


> This _should_ be the difference, but in standard German, they are not pronounced the same. I suppose this depends on the region.


 
I think you forgot the _not_, right? 

The _e_ in _Herr_ is short and the one in _der_ is long. If the _e_ in _Herr_ would be pronounced long, you'd get _Heer_ (army). 

der Herr [deɐ hɛɐ] (the gentleman)
das Heer [das heɐ] (the army)


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## Henryk

They sound completely the same to me.


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## Whodunit

Henryk said:


> They sound completely the same to me.


 
Who is _they_? _Herr_ and _der_ can't sound the same, because they have a different initial consonant. Or are you referring to _Herr_ and _Heer_?


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## heidita

Whodunit said:


> Who is _they_? _Herr_ and _der_ can't sound the same, because they have a different initial consonant. Or are you referring to _Herr_ and _Heer_?


 
Who, let's not split hair!

No, I agree with Henryk. They sound the same to me , too, as I said before.


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## Stefan_82

Same to me. In an every-day conversation where I live (Hanover) both sounds are equal. Plus, in a poem, that subtle difference claimed by some commentators, would not ruin the rhyme.


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## Kajjo

_Herr _und _der _rhyme for me, too.

Kajjo


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## floridasnowbird

Stefan_82 said:


> Plus, in a poem, that subtle difference claimed by some commentators, would not ruin the rhyme.


 

In poems, nearly anything rhymes
 schön  --  geh'n
 küssen --  wissen etc. etc.

Caused by his own dialect, Goethe's poems sometimes seem to rhyme even though the words actually don't rhyme at all.


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## Whodunit

heidita said:


> They sound the same to me


 


Stefan_82 said:


> Same to me.


 


Kajjo said:


> _Herr _und _der _rhyme for me, too.


 
Am I missing something here? _Der _and _Herr_ should never been pronounced the same. This is not even true for my dialect, but that's another topic.

Listen to Klaus by entering the phrase _Das ist der Herr und ein Heer_.


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## Acrolect

If _Herr_, _Heer_ and _her_ are homophones, is the e sound long or short?

(They are not for me, BTW - interestingly, different views from the _Jahr/ja_ discussion)


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## iaf

Whodunit said:


> der Herr [d*e*ɐ h*ɛ*ɐ] (the gentleman)
> das Heer [das h*e*ɐ] (the army)



Hallo erstmal!

Ich denke mal so laut vor mich hin... 
Liegt der eigentlich hörbare Unterschied nicht am *offenen bzw. geschlossenen "e"*?
(Ich meine genau das, was Whodunit in IPA ausdrückt)


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## heidita

Whodunit said:


> Listen to Klaus by entering the phrase _Das ist der Herr und ein Heer_.


 

Who, who is talking about *Heer*? Nobody but you!


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## Acrolect

iaf said:


> Liegt der eigentlich hörbare Unterschied nicht am *offenen bzw. geschlossenen "e"*?
> (Ich meine genau das, was Whodunit in IPA ausdrückt)


 
Good point!
The main distinction is the qualitative difference between the two e sounds. I think we keep talking about long and short e sounds because length normally correlates with tongue height (i.e. closed e/i/o/u are longer than their more open counterparts). But in diphthongs the quantitative difference becomes neutralized.


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## floridasnowbird

iaf said:


> Hallo erstmal!
> 
> 
> Liegt der eigentlich hörbare Unterschied nicht am *offenen bzw. geschlossenen "e"*?


 
I agree but this won't answer the question:

Does a more open "e" rhyme with a more closed one even if there is not much difference in how long / short the "e" is pronounced?


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## iaf

floridasnowbird said:


> Does a more open "e" rhyme with a more closed one even if there is not much difference in how long / short the "e" is pronounced?



Perhaps it would rhyme if at least the length of the sound would be equal (hypothetically spoken ).

In this case, nor the length of the sound, neither the pronounciation coincide. 
I think one depends on the other: the double "r" causes the short "e", and the short "e" is supposed to be an "open e".

I hope I could explain what I meant, my english you see...


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## FloVi

Ich sehe ihn kommen, das ist der
von allen gehasste und gefürchtete Herr.

Klar reimt sich das.


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## Whodunit

iaf said:


> Liegt der eigentlich hörbare Unterschied nicht am *offenen bzw. geschlossenen "e"*?


 
That's possible, but I now see that I used a wrong IPA description. It should have been as follows:

der Herr [d*e:*ɐ h*ɛ*ɐ] (the gentleman)
das Heer [das h*e:*ɐ] (the army)

Wikipedia tells us that there's no short closed e in German, though.



heidita said:


> Who, who is talking about *Heer*? Nobody but you!


 
I used it as a comparison. _Der_ and _Heer_ rhyme as well as _her_, but _Herr_ doesn't - at least not to me.


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## Sepia

heidita said:


> Who, who is talking about *Heer*? Nobody but you!


 

I did not mention "Heer" because he did.

So those who claim that Herr und der rhyme are either pronouncing Herr exactly like Heer - or they are pronouncing the article "der" with an extremely short vowel and a very distinct "r". When I imagine what that sounds like I can't help thinking of very old black and white newsreels.


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## iaf

Whodunit said:


> der Herr [d*e:*ɐ h*ɛ*ɐ] (the gentleman)
> das Heer [das h*e:*ɐ] (the army)



Just in oder to complete the correction, not only the _*e*_-sound, but also the _*r*_-sound is different in those cases.

That's what it looks like in PONSline:
   Herr [h*ɛr*]
   der [d*e:ɐ*]
   Heer [h*e:ɐ*]

Talking phonetics, it's good to point at the differences.
Actually, if it's about poetry, there shouldn't be strict rules in art!


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## Aurin

I think that it must be due the dialect when German native speakers don´t hear a difference between "Herr" and "der". 
The original question if "Herr" rhymes with "der" I answer in the affirmative.


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## Whodunit

iaf said:


> Just in oder to complete the correction, not only the _*e*_-sound, but also the _*r*_-sound is different in those cases.
> 
> That's what it looks like in PONSline:
> Herr [h*ɛr*]
> der [d*e:ɐ*]
> Heer [h*e:ɐ*]


 
Really? That surprises me. There's absolutely no difference in the _r_-sound in the three words for me. The [r] is, to be accurate and nitpicky , wrong. The [r] is used for the Spanish /r/ in _pe*rr*o_. Standard German does not contain that sound. I would pronounce [hɛr] like LA Spanish _jerr_, if that word existed.

The German /r/ sound [ʁ] cannot appear at the end of a word in standard German. I don't agree with PONS.



Aurin said:


> The original question if "Herr" rhymes with "der" I answer in the affirmative.


 
So, what does rhyme for you in this (kind of nonsensical) poem?

_In einem *Heer*,_
_da war *der*,_
_es war ein *Herr*_
_und er kam *her*._


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## Aurin

Whodunit said:


> Really? That surprises me. There's absolutely no difference in the _r_-sound in the three words for me. The [r] is, to be accurate and nitpicky , wrong. The [r] is used for the Spanish /r/ in _pe*rr*o_. Standard German does not contain that sound. I would pronounce [hɛr] like LA Spanish _jerr_, if that word existed.
> 
> The German /r/ sound [[zfontwithcomma='Arial Unicode MS', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', 'Lucida Grande', 'DejaVu Sans', 'TITUS Cyberbit Basic', Code2000, 'MV Boli', 'MS Mincho', Arial, sans-serif]ʁ[/zfontwithcomma]] cannot appear at the end of a word in standard German. I don't agree with PONS.
> 
> 
> 
> So, what does rhyme for you in this (kind of nonsensical) poem?
> 
> _In einem *Heer*,_
> _da war *der*,_
> _es war ein *Herr*_
> _und er kam *her*._


 
Whodunit, du bist nicht nur ein Multisprachgenie, sondern hast auch noch eine poetische Ader. Also ich meine nicht, dass die Wörter gleich betont werden, aber dass sie sich schon reimen.


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## Whodunit

Aurin said:


> Whodunit, du bist nicht nur ein Multisprachgenie, sondern hast auch noch eine poetische Ader.


 




> Also ich meine nicht, dass die Wörter gleich betont werden, aber dass sie sich schon reimen.


 
_Betonung_ ist hier ein interessantes Wort. Versuche bitte, sie alle gleich zu betonen. Na klar reimen sie sich, weil sie so aufgeschrieben sind, dass sie sich praktisch _unrein_ reimen müssen. Aber meines Erachtens ist hier ein _reiner _(fast) Schweifreim (aaba) vorhanden. Wie seht ihr es?


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## gaer

Aurin said:


> I think that it must be due the dialect when German native speakers don´t hear a difference between "Herr" and "der".
> The original question if "Herr" rhymes with "der" I answer in the affirmative.


In all languages, I think, stress and speed affect pronunciation, so there are many factors that make the comparison of two very simple words very complex. Regionalism plays another role, in addition.

Gaer


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## Hutschi

Hi,
at first, we should define what is a rhyme. There are a lot of rhyme types. 
Unfortunately, I do not know the exact English names.

I only will consider "end rhymes". 

We have "clean rhymes" - in these kinds of rhymes, all sounds of the rhyming part of the word must be equal. Example: der, Meer, wer, Gewehr are rhyming, Gewehr is not rhyming clean with "wer", however. "Wär" is rhyming with almost all of these words clean, except "wer" and "Gewehr", because "wär" and "wer" and "...wehr" sound equal and have the same starting letter. (In many dialects "...är" and "...er" do not rhyme clean.)

There are different kinds of "not clean" rhymes (dirty rhymes). (See also #*26*)
One of them is _"der" - "Herr"_ - because there are different kinds of "e"-sound. The rhyming part sounds similar.

An typical example is _"Höhen" - "Stehen"._

"Wer" and "wär" is not a clean rhyme. It is called "äquivoker Reim" - (equal sounding rhyme)

There are a lot more rhyme forms. But in our case, we can say, "der" and "Herr" are rhyming, however, it is a dirty rhyme. 

In poetry, also the intonation is essentiall. You can only rhyme words with the same accent (stress) characteristic.

Da kam *der (1)* _*Herr*_, (der = the)
ich glaube, _der (2) (der = he)_
kam wieder _her_

"Herr" - and "der (1)" are rhyming almost clean, but I think, the "e" in "Herr" is slightly more tensed. 
"der (2)" and "her" are rhyming clean.

See also: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reim 

The definition of rhymes may be different depending on the language.

In the German language, many consider "Reim" and "sauberer Reim" (rhyme and clean rhyme) as synonym - but they are not.


PS: There is a difference in the pronunciation of "der" depending on the place in the sentence and meaning. 
"der". The question


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## Hutschi

Whodunit said:


> ... _Der_ and _Heer_ rhyme as well as _her_, but _Herr_ doesn't - at least not to me.


 
"Der" has a lot of meanings. Depending on the meaning and position, it rhymes clean or dirty to "Heer".

Der Herr - the man - rhymes almost clean, but "Herr" is slightly more tensed.
*Der* Herr - this man - rhymes dirty. But "der" rhymes clean to "Heer" in this case. It has a long vowel in this position.


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## Kajjo

FloVi said:


> Ich sehe ihn kommen, das ist der
> von allen gehasste und gefürchtete Herr.


Die Titelfrage ist, ob sich "der" und "Herr" reimen. Für unser aller Verständnis ist dies offensichtlich der Fall, d.h. man könnte Gedichte so aufbauen. Man kann aber diskutieren, ob es sich wirklich um einen _reinen _Reim handelt -- hier gehen die Meinungen auseinander.

Ich nehme inzwischen jedoch an, daß die Titelfrage ursprünglich zu ergründen versucht, ob der Vokalanteil der beiden Wörter vollkommen identisch klingt. Diese Fragestellung deckt sich mit der Frage nach der Reinheit.

Die Antwort ist klar: Das Duden Aussprachewörterbuch gibt zwei verschiedene Aussprachen an, nämlich einerseits _der, Heer, wer_ als [de:a], aber _Herr_ als [her]. Ich selbst spreche aber _der_ und _Herr_ identisch aus, offensichtlich ein Fall norddeutschen Dialekts. So wie ich die anderen Kommentare verstanden habe, sprechen auch Heidi, Henryk und Flovi die Wörter gleichlautend aus, nicht aber Whodunit und Floridasnowbird.

Kajjo


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## Sepia

Hutschi said:


> Hi,
> ...
> 
> PS: There is a difference in the pronunciation of "der" depending on the place in the sentence and meaning.
> "der". The question



Eh, what? It is the article - which other meaning of the word do you know? Maybe I've gone blank, but I cannot think of any other ...


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## Voxy

FloVi said:


> Ich sehe ihn kommen, das ist der
> von allen gehasste und gefürchtete Herr.
> 
> Klar reimt sich das.





Voxy


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## Hutschi

Sepia said:


> Eh, what? It is the article - which other meaning of the word do you know? Maybe I've gone blank, but I cannot think of any other ...


 
"Der" can be an article, but it can also be used as pronoun.

Der (1) Tisch, der da steht - the table that is standing here. (1) article, der (2) demonstrative pronoun, both sound equal.
_Der_ (3) Tisch, der (2) da steht - this table that is standing here. Der (2) and der (3) sound different, usually. 


Der Tisch - the table (this is the meaning, the starter asked for.)

_Der_ Tisch - that table (this is the meaning, where the rhyme is not clean to "Herr" but to "Heer".)

(I hope the translation renders the meaning well enough to understand the differences.)

Babylon English - German says:




> pron. the, definite article used to specify one person or item in particular (Grammar); of; to the, belonging to


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## Kajjo

_der_ kann Artikel, Demonstrativpronomen und Relativpronomen sein. Die Aussprache beeinflußt das aber nicht unmittelbar. Natürlich werden aber betonte Satzteile eben _betont_ hervorgehoben, und das trifft auf Demonstrativpronomina regelhaft zu, dagegen nicht auf Artikel.

Kajjo


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## heidita

Hutschi said:


> "Der" can be an article, but it can also be used as pronoun.


 
True: article, demonstrative and relative pronoun.

_



Der Tisch - that table (this is the meaning, where the rhyme is not clean to "Herr" but to "Heer".

Click to expand...

 
Good example. _


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> _der_ kann Artikel, Demonstrativpronomen und Relativpronomen sein. Die Aussprache beeinflußt das aber nicht unmittelbar. Natürlich werden aber betonte Satzteile eben _betont_ hervorgehoben, und das trifft auf Demonstrativpronomina regelhaft zu, dagegen nicht auf Artikel.
> 
> Kajjo


 
Von der konkreten Aussprache hängt es dann ab, ob es sich sauber auf "Heer" oder auf "Herr" reimt. Außerdem gibt es ganz offensichtlich leichte regionale Unterschiede innerhalb der Standardaussprache.

"Der" kann außer betont oder unbetont auch lang oder kurz ausgesprochen werden. Davon hängt mit ab, um welchen Ausdruck es sich handelt und von der Nachbarschaft im Text. Im Druckbild kann man es standardmäßig nicht unterscheiden. Oft wird _*der*_ aber hervorgehoben, wenn es sich nicht um den Artikel handelt und das sonst nicht erkennbar ist. Der Artikel wird meist kurz und unbetont gesprochen. 

Der Hund ist _der _Hund.


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## Kajjo

Hier läuft jetzt etwas falsch herun, glaube ich. Das Wort _Herr _war strittig -- die meisten sprechen es offensichtlich wie _der, wer_ aus (und nicht wie im Duden angegeben). Ich verstehe nicht, warum wir plötzlich Aussprachevarianten von _der_ diskutieren? Bis auf betont/unbetont sehe ich hier keine Alternativen.

Kajjo


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## Hutschi

Ja. Laut Duden wird "Herr" hinten mit "r" gesprochen. 
Bei Gedichten mit Reimen gilt nicht immer die Standard-Aussprache.
Es hängt hier in besonderer Weise von der Betonung und konkreten Aussprache ab.
Neben der Betonung spielt auch die Länge eine Rolle. Sie ist oft auch bedeutungsunterscheidend.

Ich spreche "der" und "wer" normalerweise nicht wie "Herr" aus. 
Allerdings spreche ich "der", "Heer" und "wer" nur in gleichartig betonter Stelle als reinen Reim aus.


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## englishman

Whodunit said:


> So, what does rhyme for you in this (kind of nonsensical) poem?
> 
> _In einem *Heer*,_
> _da war *der*,_
> _es war ein *Herr*_
> _und er kam *her*._



Let me add the perspective of a non-Muttersprachler: I can hear no difference between the -er sounds of "Herr" and "der" and I pronounce them identically. "Heer" is significantly different with the following rough English equivalents:

"Herr" = "hare"
"der" = "dare"
"Heer" = "hayer"

Those are *very* rough equivalents, of course.


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## Hutschi

I would render it in following way

"Herr" = "har" (short and tensed, the "r" is spoken as consonant by standard, but in some regions as schwa-like-vowal)
"der" = "dare" (long and tensed, but depending on context also short and tensed)
"Heer" = "hare" (long and tensed)

(In English, the difference between long and short vowels was changed to tensed and lax vowels, so it may be difficult to here the differences.)


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## Acrolect

> The [r] is, to be accurate and nitpicky , wrong. The [r] is used for the Spanish /r/ in _pe*rr*o_. Standard German does not contain that sound. I would pronounce [hɛr] like LA Spanish _jerr_, if that word existed.
> 
> The German /r/ sound [ʁ] cannot appear at the end of a word in standard German. I don't agree with PONS.


I do not agree with the first part of your statement, at least from a phonological point of view. The [ʁ] might be the most common realization of the /r/ phoneme in German, but [r] and [R] would also be accepted (especially [r] or its flapped varient is an idiosyncratic preference that I encounter in persons, irrespective of dialectal background). As there often is phonetic variation in the realizations of /r/, most transcriptions use the symbol r simply to stand for the rhotic phoneme /r/, not implying that it is necessarily an alveolar vibrant.

I, however, second you in the second statement - for me there is no postvocalic r in German. So I would be interested whether Pons or Duden have any other words ending in /r/. It would be - form a phonological point of view - absurd situation to have a tiny set of words like _Herr_ with postvocalic /r/. Anyway, for me the difference in pronunciation does not lie in the /r/, but in the quality and the quantity of the e sound (longer, more closed in _Heer_, shorter, more open in _Herr_).



> Let me add the perspective of a non-Muttersprachler: I can hear no difference between the -er sounds of "Herr" and "der" and I pronounce them identically. "Heer" is significantly different with the following rough English equivalents:
> 
> "Herr" = "hare"
> "der" = "dare"
> "Heer" = "hayer"


Are _hare_ and _hayer _pronounced the same? For me _hayer_ has two syllables and does not rhyme with _hair/hare_. But I am not a native speaker.

Hutschi, what is the difference between _Ge*wehr*_ and *wer*? For me they sound the same (the last syllable of _Gewehr_ of course)?

Generally, I think the initial question referred to pure rhymes and not to imperfect ones (well, this would not be a relevant piece of information because imperfect rhymes do not really tell you anything about the pronunciation of a foreign language).


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## Outsider

englishman said:


> Let me add the perspective of a non-Muttersprachler: I can hear no difference between the -er sounds of "Herr" and "der" and I pronounce them identically. "Heer" is significantly different with the following rough English equivalents:
> 
> "Herr" = "hare"
> "der" = "dare"
> "Heer" = "hayer"
> 
> Those are *very* rough equivalents, of course.


I agree with your description, except that the German "r" is noticeably different from the English one.

One question, though: would you agree that "hear" is an even better English approximation to the pronunciation of _Heer_?


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## heidita

Outsider said:


> One question, though: would you agree that "hear" is an even better English approximation to the pronunciation of _Heer_?


 
I wouldn't, outsider. 

hear is pronounced /hia/ like its homophone here. 

Very _similar_ to "Heer" is hair, true.


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## Voxy

heidita said:


> I wouldn't, outsider.
> 
> hear is pronounced /hia/ like its homophone here.
> 
> Very _similar_ to "Heer" is hair, true.


Haaair, if you want an accurate aproach. 

Voxy


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## heidita

Voxy said:


> Haaair, if you want an accurate aproach.
> 
> Voxy


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## Outsider

heidita said:


> I wouldn't, outsider.
> 
> hear is pronounced /hia/ like its homophone here.
> 
> Very _similar_ to "Heer" is hair, true.


I do not hear an /i/ in "hear". To my ears, it's normally a close-mid vowel. The vowel in "hair" is open-mid, or perhaps mid (the same as in German _Herr_).

But I've learnt not to quibble over pronunciation when I'm not armed with a microphone and a recorder.


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## heidita

Outsider said:


> I do not hear an /i/ in "hear". To my ears, it's normally a close-mid vowel.


 
You don't?

This is the transcription used on this board.

*hear* [hɪəʳ] Nothing like _Heer_.


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## Outsider

Ah, so it's that weird Germanic lax vowel /I/. 
But that's still not an /i/ (a tense vowel).


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## Hutschi

Acrolect said:


> Hutschi, what is the difference between _Ge*wehr*_ and *wer*? For me they sound the same (the last syllable of _Gewehr_ of course)?


 
I would pronounce them almost identically. There is a very small difference caused by different beginning. (In "Gewehr" the "w" is following a vowel.) They sound the same for me, too, in common language. In songs, there might be differences, and there might be regional differences. 

Wer ist da? Da hängt ein Gewehr. (The syllables may have different stress, and depending on the stress, the "r"-sound is spoken stronger or weaker in any of the two words. (I do not know the exact Englisch word. - Abhängig von der Betonung wird das "r" am Ende stärker oder weniger stark ausgeprägt gesprochen, das kann aber auf jedes der beiden Wörter zutreffen.)


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## gaer

I would advise against using English words as clues as to how to pronounce German words. There is tremendous variation in English pronunciation as well as German pronunication, so problems are greatly exaggerated when English and German pronuniciations are generalized together.


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## Hutschi

gaer said:


> I would advise against using English words as clues as to how to pronounce German words. There is tremendous variation in English pronunciation as well as German pronunication, so problems are greatly exaggerated when English and German pronuniciations are generalized together.


 
hi Gaer, thank you for this important hint. The best approximation is IPA. However, it is not available on some computers.


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## gaer

Hutschi said:


> hi Gaer, thank you for this important hint. The best approximation is IPA. However, it is not available on some computers.


True, but very few computers these days are not capable of playing small sound files, and there are a number of sites that use sound to show how words in both English and German are pronounced. Even this is not fully satisfactory solution, but it's a good start.

If, for instance, we linked to sound clips of words such as "der" and "Herr", we could either agree that they do or do not rhyme in _those particular files_. We might also disagree about which files are most representative of "standard" pronunciation, but at least we would be talking about the same sounds.


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