# Granny has died



## Encolpius

Hello, there is an interesting thread here although focused on German, people mention Slavic languages, too. I do not know Polish properly, but I am interested if dativ works the same way as in Czech. You can say "zemřela nám babička" in Czech (I am sure you understand the sentence). I haven't got the slightest idea what kid of dative is that in Czech. Can you can in Polish, too: Babcia nam zmarła. (? ) Is that correct Polish? Thanks. Enc.


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## ornityna

You can say 'Babcia nam zmarła' and it is perfectly correct. Although it does not exactly mean the same as '(Nasza) babcia zmarła', which is simply neutral '(Our) granny has died'. This is an interesting phenomenon in Polish - by adding this dative we can slightly change the tone of the utterance. We actually do not change the fact we present, but we change our attitude towards it. The Granny sentence is probably not the best example, but in other cases it conveys a shadow of annoyance if you add this dative. For example if you want to say 'Don't run here' (Nie biegaj tutaj) and simultaneously you want to point the attention to yourself (how selfish!), that it annoys you for instance, you can say 'Nie biegaj mi tutaj'. I do not know the statistics, but from my experience as a native speaker I can say that I hear the latter most of the times.
In the Granny case, the English equivalent that comes to mind is 'Don't die on me here', as they say in war movies. It's not as much annoyance as grief.
The most confusing case is when a person uses this additional dative in a sentence where there could be used an actual dative that changes propositional meaning.


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## Karton Realista

ornityna said:


> You can say 'Babcia nam zmarła' and it is perfectly correct.


I disagree. You can say: pies mi zdechł, but when you are referring to a human that certainly is not your property it is disrespectful to say that. Many people would actually say that, but it is still inapropriate.
"*Nasza babcia* (_niedawno_) *zmarła*", the second version you gave, is much better.
+ In Polish it is far better to add some adjectives or adverbs to make a phrase look better/more correct.


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## Encolpius

Thank you friends and excellent example, it works the same way as in Czech.  Now I am in the picture.


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## Karton Realista

Some aditional info that's completely useless, the names of cases in Polish:
Mianownik - Nominatív
Dopełniacz - Genitív
Celownik - Datív
Biernik - Akuzatív
Miejscownik - Lokál
Narzędnik - Inštrumentál
Wołacz - Vocative
Since you used "dativ" in your OP .


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## ornityna

Karton Realista said:


> You can say: pies mi zdechł



I am not sure it is true and please tell me what do you think about it:

First of all, grammatically speaking, is it actually possible to say that? In other words, is this verb (umrzeć, zdechnąć) transitive. If it is intransitive, what this pronoun actually means? You suggest that it marks property. And yet, if it is possible to say (and I believe it is) 'Nie biegaj mi tu', then the pronoun in no way signifies property (if it does, what would be this property?) And the case is similar: you have two verbs of the same kind (both intransitive I believe) thus both not taking objects. And yet people not only say that but also understand it.
Furthermore, giving another example like 'Babcia się nam rozchorowała' you see that this is not actually rude or ill-behaved thing to say, rather affectionate and personal (in my opinion).
Finally, by 'perfectly correct' I meant native speakers do speak that way; and, to be exact, the 'proper' sentence for the dog would be 'Mój pies zdechł', wouldn't it?


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## Ben Jamin

Karton Realista said:


> I disagree. You can say: pies mi zdechł, but when you are referring to a human that certainly is not your property it is disrespectful to say that. Many people would actually say that, but it is still inapropriate.
> "*Nasza babcia* (_niedawno_) *zmarła*", the second version you gave, is much better.
> + In Polish it is far better to add some adjectives or adverbs to make a phrase look better/more correct.


Do we speak the same language? 
In Polish it is perfectly normal to say "Babcia nam zmarła", although it is a colloquial expression.
The expression is also more personal and emotional than "Nasza babcia zmarła". It also suggests being personally affected by the fact, although not in all cases (can be also just a figure of speech).


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## Ben Jamin

Encolpius said:


> Hello, there is an interesting thread here although focused on German, people mention Slavic languages, too. I do not know Polish properly, but I am interested if dativ works the same way as in Czech. You can say "zemřela nám babička" in Czech (I am sure you understand the sentence). I haven't got the slightest idea what kid of dative is that in Czech. Can you can in Polish, too: Babcia nam zmarła. (? ) Is that correct Polish? Thanks. Enc.


The sentence "Babcia nam zmarła" is correct Polish. The same fact can also be expressed by the sentence "Nasza babcia zmarła/umarła".
The difference between the two sentences is that the construction with the dative conveys the connotation of the family (us) being affected by the death of the grandmother (they will miss her), while the "straightforward" sentence is neutral in this respect: "Nasza babcia zmarła, ale nie zmartwiliśmy się tym" (Our grandmother died, but we don't care).
We can say that generally the construction with dative is used when the speaker wants to express being affected somehow by the event.


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## bibax

Ben Jamin said:


> We can say that generally the construction with dative is used when the speaker wants to express being affected somehow by the event.


Yes, it is the so called dativus ethicus (in Czech: dativ sdílnosti):

„A to *nam* zabili Ferdynanda,“ rzekła posługaczka do pana Szwejka, ...

(„Tak *nám* zabili Ferdinanda,“ řekla posluhovačka panu Švejkovi, ... _the 1st sentence in the novel_)

Sometimes the dative has an unexpected meaning:

Nečti *mi* tu! (Nie czytaj mi tu!)... In Czech it doesn't (necessarily) mean that you read something aloud to me. It can simply mean: nečti tu! ... like Nie biegaj mi tu! = Nie biegaj tu!


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## Karton Realista

Ben Jamin said:


> Do we speak the same language?


Valid question

I don't even know why it came to my mind. I must have been imagining things. I admit my wrongdoing. 

Don't beat me with sticks, pls


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## Ben Jamin

bibax said:


> Yes, it is the so called dativus ethicus (in Czech: dativ sdílnosti):
> 
> „A to *nam* zabili Ferdynanda,“ rzekła posługaczka do pana Szwejka, ...
> 
> („Tak *nám* zabili Ferdinanda,“ řekla posluhovačka panu Švejkovi, ... _the 1st sentence in the novel_)
> 
> Sometimes the dative has an unexpected meaning:
> 
> Nečti *mi* tu! (Nie czytaj mi tu!)... In Czech it doesn't (necessarily) mean that you read something aloud to me. It can simply mean: nečti tu! ... like Nie biegaj mi tu! = Nie biegaj tu!



It is fantastic to see how the Polish sentence matches the original Czech ones! One even could write "... rzekła posługaczka panu Szwejkowi", which is slightly unusual, but fully understandable and grammatical.
Thanks for the information about "dativus ethicus"! I didn't know this term. It's not much used in Polish grammar.


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## Nino83

Is it possible to use the dative also when a cat died? 
My cat died on me. Kot mi umarło. 
Is it more emotional than "mój kot umarło"?


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## ornityna

Nino83 said:


> My cat died on me. Kot mi umarło.



I think you misunderstood my previous post - I don't mean that 'die on somebody' is an exact translation, I do not even mean it is a plausible translation. I only wanted to show a somewhat similar example that would not be used in formal or neutral speech but only in some particular situations in life.
'Don't die on me here' could be translated as 'Nie umieraj mi tu', but 'Kot mi zdechł' cannot be translated as 'My cat died on me'. The first example is a kind of joke/irony, because this dative pronoun conveys agitation or other, rather negative, emotion that is caused by some action performed by another person; the other case of usage is to say that an action was performed by yourself, e.g. Szklanka mi spadła (I dropped a glass). The translation, though, is not precise in this example, because in some Polish sentences we actually blame the items (grammatically speaking) for some actions, not ourselves. Thus, the exact translation would not be that '_I_ dropped a glass', but 'A glass fell down' and I was there too (it is very hard to translate such an utterance to show the real tone of it). It is kind of an euphemism since we do not say that we actually did something wrong (Upuściłem szklankę = I dropped a glass).
Bottom line, 'Kot mi zdechł' (My cat died) is correct, but it cannot be translated as 'My cat died on me'. I don't know if it is more or less emotional than 'Mój kot zdechł'. The former is less formal for sure.


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## jasio

Nino83 said:


> Is it possible to use the dative also when a cat died?
> My cat died on me. Kot mi umarło.
> Is it more emotional than "mój kot umarło"?


Frankly speaking, I can't recall anyone speaking "Mój kot umarł/zdechł". Typically the dative form is used.

Also, when speaking about animals' deaths typically the verbs 'padł' and 'zdechł' are used, albeit they are used in somewhat different contexts, the former being more formal, the latter being more colloquial. There are also some nuances, beyond the scope of the thread.

"Umarł" (this is a proper form matching the grammatically male cat... "umarło" is neuter) is a verb typically used for humans' deaths, typically natural but perhaps resulting from earlier illness or injuries. However some people use it also referring to pets to which they feel strong emotional bonds. So "świnia mi umarła" sounds a bit strange, same for working dogs. But for a pet-dog, pet-cat, canary, parrot, perhaps a horse, which when alive were treated like family members it sounds very emotional, but is ok. It is also more and more often used for apes, like chimpanzees or gorillas, as a recognition of their almost human nature. The God, is of course, immortal so we can say 'Bóg nie może umrzeć, bo jest nieśmiertelny" (the God cannot die because He is immortal). Alike with gods, angels, demons, etc.

Interesting (and even more OT, sorry) is the other way round. You can use 'padł' or 'zdechł' towards humans, but they have totally opposite emotional connotations. In this context 'padł', derived from falling down, means more or less 'was killed in combat'. It's full of respect, somewhat solemn, official, and typically refers to soldiers, policemen, sometimes civilians. On the contrary, 'zdechł' is contemptuous and insulting, as if like saying 'he died like an animal' (referring to questioning the person's human status and diginity, rather than to the type of death). If you curse someone you may say 'obyś zdechł' rather than 'obyś umarł' - which is grammatically correct, but sounds like a child talk complaining to the daddy or granny.


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## Ben Jamin

Nino83 said:


> Is it possible to use the dative also when a cat died?
> My cat died on me. Kot mi umarło.
> Is it more emotional than "mój kot umarło"?


"Kot" is a masculine verb, so it should be "Kot mi umarł" and ""Mój kot umarł". In correct Polish the adjectives, adverbs and adjectival participles follow the grammatical gender of the noun, not the biological sex of the person. Well familiar animals have gender assigned to their biological sex: kot - masculine), kotka - feminine, and kocię -(kitten) -neuter. Actually I can't recall any name for an adult animal in neuter in Polish, except maybe of paleontoligical names (Dinotherium wymarło many millions years ago).


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## Encolpius

Ben Jamin said:


> Thanks for the information about "dativus ethicus"! I didn't know this term. It's not much used in Polish grammar.



Yes, it is fantastic that kind of dative has even its own name. 



jasio said:


> Frankly speaking, I can't recall anyone speaking "Mój kot umarł/zdechł". Typically the dative form is used.



How about: Mój kot zdechł a twój jeszcze źyje.


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## Ben Jamin

Encolpius said:


> Yes, it is fantastic that kind of dative has even its own name.
> 
> 
> 
> How about: Mój kot zdechł a twój jeszcze źyje.


It would be quite normal. 
By the way there is a typo in your sentence: it should be a "ż" (not "ź") in" żyje".
A comment to Jasio's post: "I can't recall ..."
It can well be so, but it does not mean that nobody would say so.


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## Encolpius

Thanks, Ben Jamin. That's why context is always very important.


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## jasio

Encolpius said:


> How about: Mój kot zdechł a twój jeszcze źyje.


It's quite natural, indeed. Yet, I've never heard it.



Ben Jamin said:


> A comment to Jasio's post: "I can't recall ..."
> It can well be so, but it does not mean that nobody would say so.


And it was PRECISELY what I meant. 
Every time my relatives and friends talked about their dead cats or other pets, "dativus ethicus" was used.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> It's quite natural, indeed. Yet, I've never heard it.
> 
> 
> And it was PRECISELY what I meant.
> Every time my relatives and friends talked about their dead cats or other pets, "dativus ethicus" was used.


And this is "anegdotical evidence", very easy to be mistaken by our foreigner colleagues for a general truth.


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> And this is "anegdotical evidence", very easy to be mistaken by our foreigner colleagues for a general truth.


Is there any scientific evidence on popularity of these constructions? 
Anyway, the more I think about it, the more a construction with a possessive pronoun falls into 'formally correct, rarely used' category. "Samochód mi zgasł", "koszula mi się pogniotła", "obiad mi ostygł", "nogi sobie odmroził", "radio mi działa"... "Moje spodnie się przetarły" doesn't sound too natural, although it's grammatically correct. Would you really use this phrase? It's not even a matter of an emotional approach, as "moja drużyna wygrała", "moja szkoła dostała nagrodę" do not seem to have usable dative equivalents. 

Actually, the phrase


Encolpius said:


> Mój kot zdechł a twój jeszcze źyje.


is different, because it's a compound statement expressing a sort of comparison rahter than a simple phrase. 

Looks like an interesting linguistic problem.


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## Nino83

jasio said:


> Every time my relatives and friends talked about their dead cats or other pets, "dativus ethicus" was used.


Yes, it depends on the context. Also in Italian the dative case is preferred with pets and required with the parts of the body.
Anyway, when speaking about a car, both possessive adjectives and dative are common, and the latter indicates more emotional, personal involvement. 
In Polish (after reading your comments) it seems that the use of the dative case is more common, in general.  


ornityna said:


> Thus, the exact translation would not be that '_I_ dropped a glass', but 'A glass fell down' and I was there too


The same in Italian "mi (to me) è caduto (fell down) il bicchiere (the glass)". It's normal in dative constructions with anticausative verbs (like "break down", "fall down") that the patient (the glass) is the grammatical subject (nominative) and the (involuntary) "agent" (I) is the indirect object (dative).


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## jasio

Nino83 said:


> Yes, it depends on the context. Also in Italian the dative case is preferred with pets and required with the parts of the body.
> Anyway, when speaking about a car, both possessive adjectives and dative are common, and the latter indicates more emotional, personal involvement.
> In Polish (after reading your comments) it seems that the use of the dative case is more common, in general.


Yes, besides possessive pronouns are used significantly less than in in English or Italian. For example "A guide to _taking your bicycle_ by train from London to mainland Europe" in Polish is "Jak zabrać pociągiem rower z Londynu do Europy kontynentalnej", with no pronouns at all. It's so natural that when I read a (bad) translation like  "Jak zabrać pociągiem *swój* rower..." I always tend to think that perhaps the instructions would be different if I were to take someone else's bicycle rather than my own.


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