# Hindi/Urdu 'shaan pati'



## Jashn

This is a term I've heard several times over the years, usually in movies, but I've never been able to find it in a dictionary. To me, it sounds like it's pronounced, "शान पति", "شان پتی". Usually the context I've heard it in is someone being a sort of smart-alec, and almost always this exact rebuke with the word is used against the smart-alec:

zyaada shanpati na kar(o)

Could anyone shed any light on the correct spelling, meaning, and usage of the phrase? 

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## Happu

Jashn said:


> This is a term I've heard several times over the years, usually in movies, but I've never been able to find it in a dictionary. To me, it sounds like it's pronounced, "शान पति", "شان پتی". Usually the context I've heard it in is someone being a sort of smart-alec, and almost always this exact rebuke with the word is used against the smart-alec:
> 
> zyaada shanpati na kar(o)
> 
> Could anyone shed any light on the correct spelling, meaning, and usage of the phrase?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.



_Shaanaa_ in Mumbai slang means 'super-smart' in a kind of sarcastic way, or 'smart-ass'._ 

Eh, shaane! =_ Hey, you smart-ass! / how smart do you think you are!

If I remember correctly, people also say _DeRH shaane! _= You one-and-a-half times smart one!

So_ zyaadaa shaanpati na kar_ /_ mat kiyaa karo _would mean 'don't be a smart Alec', 'don't think you're oh so clever'.


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## littlepond

Jashn said:


> This is a term I've heard several times over the years, usually in movies, but I've never been able to find it in a dictionary. To me, it sounds like it's pronounced, "शान पति", "شان پتی".



If it could be written, it would come close to शाण-पट्टी, but the Gujarati-Marathi retroflex is slightly different than in Hindi, so that's the closest approximation.

Some spelling corrections follow:



Happu said:


> _Shaanaa_ in Mumbai slang means 'super-smart' in a kind of sarcastic way, or 'smart-ass'.


shaaNRaa

And it doesn't have to be sarcastic. "shaaNRaa" can be a nice word, too, without sarcasm. It can simply mean "clever, smart." It can be used in praise, too.



Happu said:


> _Eh, shaane! _


e/ai shaaNRe! (There's no "eh" in Hindi or Marathi.)



Happu said:


> If I remember correctly, people also say _DeRH shaane! _= You one-and-a-half times smart one!


Yes, that's a good observation from memory.



Happu said:


> _shaanpati_


shaaNR-paTTii


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## Jashn

Now I know why I could never find it in the dictionary! Thanks to both of you for your help, I finally know for sure what it means.


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## Qureshpor

I am wondering if the word in question is linked to the common Urdu/Hindi "siyaanaa"(?)


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## Happu

Qureshpor said:


> I am word if the word in question is linked to the common Urdu/Hindi "siyaanaa"(?)


The correct info is in here, search "acting smart": 

Bombay Hindi - Wikipedia


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## Qureshpor

Happu said:


> The correct info is in here, search "acting smart":
> 
> Bombay Hindi - Wikipedia


Yes, it is linked to the word I am suggesting.


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## Jashn

Qureshpor said:


> I am wondering if the word in question is linked to the common Urdu/Hindi "siyaanaa"(?)


Out of curiosity, does this mean the word you've mentioned is used in a similar fashion? Would one say, 'siyaanaa na ho jao', or something like that? Thanks, @Qureshpor ji.


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## Happu

Jashn said:


> Out of curiosity, does this mean the word you've mentioned is used in a similar fashion? Would one say, 'siyaanaa na ho jao', or something like that? Thanks, @Qureshpor ji.


That would be Hindi सयाना (sayaanaa), right? Meaning shrewd, cunning et al. A connection seems plausible.


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## Jashn

That does seem to be the normative spelling, at least in Hindi, @Happu. That said, I did find it in Platts' Urdu dictionary showing the alternative spelling siyana with sayana as the head word. In Urdu Lughat, which is a more recent dictionary, I can only find an entry under siyana


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## Happu

Jashn said:


> That does seem to be the normative spelling, @Happu. That said, I did find it in Platts' Urdu dictionary showing the alternative spelling siyana.


Yes, the same then. Prakrit सजाण- (sajaaNa-), from where Marathi seems to take the ण (N).


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## aevynn

Jashn said:


> Out of curiosity, does this mean the word you've mentioned is used in a similar fashion? Would one say, 'siyaanaa na ho jao', or something like that?


I think people do sometimes say things like "_zyaadaa sayaanaa mat ban_."


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## desi4life

Jashn said:


> That does seem to be the normative spelling, at least in Hindi, @Happu. That said, I did find it in Platts' Urdu dictionary showing the alternative spelling siyana with sayana as the head word. In Urdu Lughat, which is a more recent dictionary, I can only find an entry under siyana



I agree about sayaanaa सयाना being the normative spelling in Hindi, but other spellings exist in Hindi too. siyaanaa सियाना, syaanaa स्याना, and sayaanaa सयाना are all listed in Hindi Shabd Saagar. Also note that Platts is an Urdu and Hindi dictionary, and he provides the various Devanagari spellings for this word as well.


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## Happu

सयाना - Wiktionary

See the reference to the Marathi word.


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## littlepond

सयाना in Hindi doesn't usually have the same nuance as "shaaNRaa." सयाना is more used like "laRkaa sayaanaa ho gayaa hai ab ...," that is, has matured, etc. Of course, sometimes, it is used as mentioned by @aevynn jii in Post 12, but even then it never means the smart aleck of "shaaNRaa."


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## Qureshpor

Jashn said:


> Out of curiosity, does this mean the word you've mentioned is used in a similar fashion? Would one say, 'siyaanaa na ho jao', or something like that? Thanks, @Qureshpor ji.


Yes, as @aevynn has indicated, one does hear, "ziyaadah siyaanaa ban_ne kii koshish mat karo." By the way, I have no idea of the exact significance of the Marathi word "shaaNRaa". What I was suggesting was that in my opinion it is linked to "siyaanaa". In Punjabi we have "siyaaNRaa".


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## aevynn

littlepond said:


> सयाना in Hindi doesn't usually have the same nuance as "shaaNRaa." ... Of course, sometimes, it is used as mentioned by @aevynn jii in Post 12, but even then it never means the smart aleck of "shaaNRaa."


Fair enough! I've always understood sentences like _zyaadaa sayaanaa mat ban_ (or @Qureshpor jii's variant!) to mean something like "Don't act like you're so smart" or "Don't act like you're all that." This usage of _sayaanaa/siyaanaa/syaanaa_ probably doesn't line up exactly with the insolent wisecrack-making smartass of _shaaNRaa_, but one might nevertheless translate the sentence into English as "Don't be such a smart aleck" (cf. definitions 2 and 3 of "smart aleck" below):


			
				https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/smart_aleck said:
			
		

> *smart aleck* (plural *smart alecks*)
> 1. One who is given to obnoxious or insolent humor.
> 2. One who is pretentious about their own cleverness or knowledge.
> 3. One who is obnoxiously self-assured; a show off.


---
I'd also be curious about knowing the semantic distribution of Marathi शाणा. Specifically, I wonder if maybe the Marathi word शाणा has many of the same meanings as its UH cognate _sayaanaa/siyaanaa/syaanaa_, but the Bambaiya Hindi word _shaaNRaa_ that's been loaned from Marathi has a narrower semantic range than the Marathi word...? Can anyone with a working knowledge of Marathi comment on this?


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## Dinraat

Qureshpor said:


> I am wondering if the word in question is linked to the common Urdu/Hindi "siyaanaa"(?)


I've heard this shaana/shaanRa word in the Potohar region and always thought it was derived from siyaana.


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## Jashn

littlepond said:


> सयाना in Hindi doesn't usually have the same nuance as "shaaNRaa." सयाना is more used like "laRkaa sayaanaa ho gayaa hai ab ...," that is, has matured, etc. Of course, sometimes, it is used as mentioned by @aevynn jii in Post 12, but even then it never means the smart aleck of "shaaNRaa."


Thanks, @littlepond  Out of curiosity, how would you express the same idea in Hindi if you didn't use either shaanpatti or siyana?


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## littlepond

Jashn said:


> Out of curiosity, how would you express the same idea in Hindi if you didn't use either shaanpatti or siyana?



If you can give me a story, @Jashn jii, I can tell you the word or expression I could (or would) use. Context determines words.


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## Qureshpor

Jashn said:


> Thanks, @littlepond  Out of curiosity, how would you express the same idea in Hindi if you didn't use either shaanpatti or siyana?


@Jashn Jii, I know your question is addressed to @littlepond Jii and I am not qualified to answer your question from an Hindi perspective any way. However, if I add a little bit about the word "siyaanaa", it may help you, the emphasis being on may.

In Punjabi, siyaaNRaa is used in contrast with "niyaaNRaa". It is probably better to illustrate the contrast using the plural "siyaaNRe" (those who have reached the age of understanding/adults) and "niyaaNRe" (children). In Urdu "siyaanaa" is used in the sense of "samjh-daar", "hoshyaar" and "knowledgeable". I suspect both these words would be used in Hindi too.


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> In Urdu "siyaanaa" is used in the sense of "samjh-daar", "hoshyaar" and "knowledgeable". I suspect both these words would be used in Hindi too.


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## Jashn

littlepond said:


> If you can give me a story, @Jashn jii, I can tell you the word or expression I could (or would) use. Context determines words.


Thanks for humouring me, @littlepond ji. 

I probably used the English term in class the most often. Say you have a kid who's trying to answer a question the teacher has posed to the class, only to be interrupted by the local smart aleck. Maybe one of the other kids interrupts him/her to say, 'Hey, smart aleck, nobody asked you'. Something like that.

The Merriam Webster's dictionary gives this example of the use of 'smart aleck' in English: some _smart aleck_ in the audience kept shouting clever insults at the nervous speaker

I don't know if that helps?

I'm just curious if 'shan patti' is occupying this role in Mumbai Hindi, and siyana is not necessarily applicable to this context, what else does? There's no way there isn't a good word for this in Hindi.


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## littlepond

Jashn said:


> I probably used the English term in class the most often. Say you have a kid who's trying to answer a question the teacher has posed to the class, only to be interrupted by the local smart aleck. Maybe one of the other kids interrupts him/her to say, 'Hey, smart aleck, nobody asked you'. Something like that.


It would be difficult to use "shaaNR paTTii" in this context, actually. But "shaaNRaa" is possible ("z(y)aadaa shaaNRaa mat ban"). However, the more commonly heard thing to hear would be something on the lines of "zaada itraa mat" or "zaada hoshiyaar mat ban" or "zaadaa hoshiyaarii/hushiyaarii na/mat dikhaa." In modern slang, the kid could be also referred to as "chiknaa": "ae chikne/shaaNRe, tujh se pooNchhaa kyaa kisi ne?" but this is very rough: only a few kids would talk like this. "sayaanaa" in this context looks very strange.



Jashn said:


> some _smart aleck_ in the audience kept shouting clever insults at the nervous speaker



"sayaanaa," again, would be weird here though usable if employed cleverly. I wouldn't use any word for smartness actually in this sentence: I'd say "bhiiR meN koii mahaashae ..." The usage of "mahaashae" (महाशय), literally meaning something like a great man, the English "sir," would do the trick.

One should not look for word-to-word translations. Different languages have different ways to convey the same effect. If you still really want some smartness reference in the above context, you could use "sarvbuddhimaan" here.


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