# 有多少橙子 / 需要多少个盘子



## macrotis

Hi all,

1. 这棵树上有多少橙子? 
2. 我们需要多少个盘子?

Can you please explain why 2 has 个 (or, why 1 doesn't)?
请问, 为什么第二句子里有"个"可是第一句子里没有? (Am I doing right?)


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## xiaolijie

I'm not 100% sure but just to tell you my impression and hopefully someone else will join in: a measure word may not be needed if the precise number is not important in the mind of the speaker. For example, in sentence 1, any number is fine to the speaker whereas in sentence 2, the speaker expects to hear a specific number, because this is important to him. 

My impression comes from observations like this:
我买了五个苹果。(since there is a number here, a measure word must be used)
我没卖苹果。(since I didn't buy any, so the number is not important, therefore no need for the measure word.)
Similarly: 昨天我有十块钱。不过今天我没有钱。

But again, I must stress that I can't be sure that I'm correct and in saying the above, I'm only inviting corrections/ confirmations . I even suspect that even if I'm correct, what I said above can't be a strict rule. For example, your sentence 2 may still be ok without the measure word:

2. 我们需要多少(个)盘子?


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## macrotis

Thank you.

These are the answers given in the conversation:
1. 我不知道, 可是我认为至少有五十个。
2. 我们至少需要十个盘子。
Does it help?


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## SuperXW

When asking "how many/much...", you say 多少(+measure word)+noun. *The measure word after 多少 is usually optional.* 
So,
1. 这棵树上有多少（个）橙子? 
2. 我们需要多少（个）盘子?
With OR without 个 are both correct.
Hope that help!


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## xiaolijie

macrotis said:


> Thank you.
> 
> These are the answers given in the conversation:
> 1. 我不知道, 可是我认为至少有五十个。
> 2. 我们至少需要十个盘子。
> Does it help?


The measure word in these sentences is understandable. It's required because there are specific numbers in the sentences. These sentences confirm what I said but counter-examples would be even better 

PS: 
I see SuperXW's reply now. Good to hear!


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## macrotis

Thank you very much.


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## SuperXW

The measure word is often optional after 多少, this is because you probably don't want to limit your answer with strict numbers. So when someone may not know the exact number of 树上的橙子, he can just say "many" 很多 or "not too many" 不多 etc. In case of 盘子, one can answer "two dozen""two piles"两打/两摞 instead of "twenty four" 24个.


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## kong.zhong

The measure word is always needed after the number, and can be omited in the sentences without specific number.


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## xiaolijie

This thread reminds me of an interesting exception: 
The measure-word after 多少 can be omitted but after 几 cannot be, because 几 would then look too lonely, I think :
- 多少(个)？
- 几个？


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## kong.zhong

xiaolijie said:


> This thread reminds me of an interesting exception:
> The measure-word after 多少 can be omitted but after 几 cannot be, because 几 would then look too lonely, I think :
> - 多少(个)？
> - 几个？


 
perfect!


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## BODYholic

xiaolijie said:


> The measure-word after 多少 can be omitted but after 几 cannot be, because 几 would then look too lonely, I think :


醉卧沙场君莫笑，古来征战几人回


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## kong.zhong

BODYholic said:


> 醉卧沙场君莫笑，古来征战几人回


 
Hi Bodyholic, That is the ancient Chinese. We can translate 几人回 into mrodern Chinese that is “几个人回来了？”


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## SuperXW

BODYholic said:


> 醉卧沙场君莫笑，古来征战几人回


 
Measure word is usually necessary after 几, except for ancient Chinese and literature works.


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## BODYholic

kong.zhong said:


> Hi Bodyholic, That is the ancient Chinese. We can translate 几人回 into mrodern Chinese that is “几个人回来了？”





SuperXW said:


> Measure word is usually necessary after 几, except for ancient Chinese and literature works.



I've to disagree on this. Even in contemporary Chinese, we do say 几人. 

And in Cantonese, we say 幾錢.


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## kong.zhong

BODYholic said:


> I've to disagree on this. Even in contemporary Chinese, we do say 几人.
> 
> And in Cantonese, we say 幾錢.


 
Cantonese is just a dialect.


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## SuperXW

BODYholic said:


> I've to disagree on this. Even in contemporary Chinese, we do say 几人.


 
Seems only in very casual conversations, and the noun must be 人...If you say: 几橙子, That would be too casual to be grammatical. Could you suggest a context?



BODYholic said:


> And in Cantonese, we say 幾錢.


 
In Cantonese you seldom say 多少, but use 几/几多 as an equivalent. 几钱=多少钱.


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## xiaolijie

xiaolijie said:


> This thread reminds me of an interesting exception:
> The measure-word after 多少 can be omitted but after 几 cannot be, because 几 would then look too lonely, I think :
> - 多少(个)？
> - 几个？


 
BODYholic seems to forget that my example sentences are (expandable) complete questions. You can say (你要)多少? but even in dialect, you cannot say (你要)几? You definitely need a measure word for it.


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## BODYholic

SuperXW said:


> If you say: 几橙子, That would be too casual to be grammatical. Could you suggest a context?





xiaolijie said:


> BODYholic seems to forget that my example sentences are (expandable) complete questions. You can say (你要)多少? but even in dialect, you cannot say (你要)几? You definitely need a measure word for it.



I think you guys have missed the gist by a mile.

I did not say 几, sans measure word, works for *all* instances. I believe I said, even in contemporary (and not just colloquially), we do say 几人.

By all accounts, I've never heard of 几橙子.


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## BODYholic

kong.zhong said:


> Cantonese is just a dialect.



And so what if it's a dialect? Could you care to elaborate further. Thanks.


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## BODYholic

SuperXW said:


> In Cantonese you seldom say 多少, but use 几/几多 as an equivalent. 几钱=多少钱.



In short, you do agreed we say 几钱 in Cantonese. Don't you?


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## SuperXW

To Bodyholic: The point you disagreed was "the measure word after 几 cannot be omitted." You suggested 几人. Yes, for 几人 we can sometimes omit 个. But it's still much more common for us to use 几个人 than 几人. 几人 used in modern days is either very colloquial (你们班，几人啊？) or very artistic (几人欢喜几人愁), at least in my experience. In normal situation I think we still use 几个人.
Being considerate to the starter's question, I think we just need to discuss comtemporary Mandarin to avoid confusion.


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## moia

BODYholic said:


> In short, you do agreed we say 几钱 in Cantonese. Don't you?


I've never heard anyone say 几钱 in Cantonese.  I see you're from Singapore so guess it could be old Canto. Like you lot still say lui, which is Greek to us.


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## BODYholic

moia said:


> I've never heard anyone say 几钱 in Cantonese.  I see you're from Singapore so guess it could be old Canto.


Yes, I'm from Singapore and we, not everyone but at least the Cantonese community, say 几钱.



moia said:


> Like you lot  still say lui,


I tend to believe we borrow the word 鐳 (leoi) from the Malaysian Cantonese community. The word is commonly understood here, although I rarely use it.



moia said:


> which is Greek to *us*.


Welcome to the forum, moia. Would you mind sharing with me where/what/who is "us"?


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## moia

BODYholic said:


> Yes, I'm from Singapore and we, not everyone but at least the Cantonese community, say 几钱.
> 
> 
> I tend to believe we borrow the word 鐳 (leoi) from the Malaysian Cantonese community. The word is commonly understood here, although I rarely use it.
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum, moia. Would you mind sharing with me where/what/who is "us"?


Lui is of Teochew/Hokkien origin. I'm from the Teochew-speaking part of Guangdong province. I made a point to mention it because I notice a lot of old usage has stayed in SEAsian Chinese whilst Chinese Chinese has evolved differently. Say when I said 红绿灯, I got corrected and told by my Cambo-Teochew friends that the real Teochew should be 青黄灯 or something, I forgot.


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## strad

moia said:


> I've never heard anyone say 几钱 in Cantonese.  I see you're from Singapore so guess it could be old Canto. Like you lot still say lui, which is Greek to us.



In Hong Kong, I hear 幾錢 every time i go to any market.  It's super common.


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## moia

strad said:


> In Hong Kong, I hear 幾錢 every time i go to any market.  It's super common.



Now you mention it, I do hear 几钱 when I do my groceries in Chinatown. It just never comes to my attention or just automatically translates to 几多钱 in my head.


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