# Croatian (BCS): Dalmatian dialect



## LilithE

I am opening this thread mostly as an answer to Denis so we can stop being off topic on the other thread. 
No, it isn't just Romance influence. You can also hear some older Slavic  forms preserved on the islands. I am sure you would enjoy hearing them  talk.  I can't find anything relevant on the net now but you can check  some island forums to get the idea how they talk ( as I said, you would  also see some archaic Croatian/ Slavic words ). I found some topic about nicknames but I am sure you can find something more interesting ( http://www.cimahvar.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=727 ) Already in the first line you can notice the characteristic feature of the dialect of several islands - vocal 'a' is replaced by long 'o' - _znonje; jo/ znanje; ja_. ( There is a number of linguists who wrote on that topic, among other things but I'll leave it aside - it isn't related to Romance influence ). 

I think you misunderstood me. You can notice Romance influence in dialects mostly just in vocabulary and toponims. Most of the differences in fonology and in grammar between dialects and the standard language can easier be traced in Old Slavic. Most of the changes happened several centuries ago but those forms are still older than the ones in the standard language. I don't share the view that these dialects have nothing to do with neibhouring languages. I was just bothered by the word 'borrowings' - some of those words are in use longer than the Slavic ones. I know 'loanwords' or 'borrowings' are applied in these cases as well but I can't help it - I just hate considering the language of our ancestors as borrowings. Besides, islands are important for the study of the Slavic words as well. Because of their geographical position they were less under various modern influences and some forms are better preserved. 
It is undoubtly clear by now that I like islands' dialects.  It isn't purely from the linguistic point of view. Going on an islang is also a romantic experience - it is like time traveling. You walk through the towns that haven't changed for centuries and hear the talk very close to the dialects that existed there several centuries ago. Unfortunately, they are also losing some old expressions. For the study of older forms of any language it is always important to study the language of emigrants ( the language was just passed from older generations to yourger ones without being aware of any 'modern' change ). The inhabitants of islands can still understand some 'older forms' their relatives living in other countries use when they come on vacation but some of them are not a part of every day speech any more. 
I'll just add some links so you can check the vocabulary:

http://www.stari-grad.hr/?show=19702
http://www.kalionline.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=100053

I do find it romantic that an old man managed to keep alive one language till the very end of the 19th century but that was its end. Today's Dalmatian dialect is a dialect of a Slavic language not of the Romance one. The dialect and the language of the same name even coexisted for a long time. 
I apologize for taking wrongly your legitimate usage of 'borrowings' but that isn't at all your fault. I will try to explain it. 
Clear cuts are very rare in the history. One civilization rarely wipes out completely another one. Illyrians coexisted with the Greek; the Romans didn't wipe them out when they arrived; some settlements survived the arrival of the Slavs ... To some extent we have the genes of all those civilizations. Their languages were constantly influencing one another. Toponims are often the only reminder of the old civilizations in today's language but that isn't the case with Dalmatian language. It is always sad when one language disappears but we seem to burry even the memory of it. Most of the persons in Dalmatia consider the Romance words in dialects to be loans from Italian; most are not even aware that a separate Romance language ever existed in our area. That belief isn't present only for the words that are similar to Italian ones but also for the ones that are clearly different - for exaple the word _gusterna_ that is used in almost every part. In fact it wasn't your usage of 'borrowings' that annoyed me but the common belief that every such word is borrowed from our neibhours ( well, some of them really are ). I know borrowings are just borrowings, one way or the other, but I somehow can't put the 'inherited' ones in the same class with those other ones. The first ones are a part of our history just as the Slavic ones are. They weren't 'picked up' from some passer by; they come from one of the languages our ancestors used when they sang a lullaby to their kids.


----------



## Montesacro

LilithE said:


> That belief isn't present only for the words that are similar to Italian ones but also for the ones that are clearly different - for exaple the word _gusterna_ that is used in almost every part.


 
What does _gusterna_ mean, Lilith?


----------



## DenisBiH

Nice topic LilithE! 



> Already in the first line you can notice the characteristic feature of the dialect of several islands - vocal 'a' is replaced by long 'o' - _znonje; jo/ znanje; ja_. ( There is a number of linguists who wrote on that topic, among other things but I'll leave it aside - it isn't related to Romance influence ).


Interesting. My aunt who lives in Bosanska Krajina right next to the Croatian border tends to pronounce some of her a's with an o-like quality. I'm not sure which vowel exactly it is (IPA etc) or if it is similar to the one on the islands. I've also seen representations of the speech of certain parts of B-H on Bosnian forums with -oa- as in "J*b*m im moajku" (the example is mine, I can't remember exactly which word(s) the author used). If you can share the names of the works where you have seen it discussed, I'd be grateful 

I mostly agree with the remainder of your post. I should have explicitly mentioned substrate when answering Istriano, maybe it still doesn't quite describe the language history of those parts of Croatia but it would have been better than "borrowings".

By the way, the first link is very interesting. The concept of "family nicknames" is new to me. Also the word below from the second link, interesting that it's present in the islands as well, we've discussed it here.



> Évalâ                uzvik odobravanja ( pohvale), bogme, doista, zaista


----------



## Duya

DenisBiH said:


> Nice topic LilithE!
> 
> Interesting. My aunt who lives in Bosanska Krajina right next to the Croatian border tends to pronounce some of her a's with an o-like quality. I'm not sure which vowel exactly it is (IPA etc) or if it is similar to the one on the islands. I've also seen representations of the speech of certain parts of B-H on Bosnian forums with -oa- as in "J*b*m im moajku" (the example is mine, I can't remember exactly which word(s) the author used). If you can share the names of the works where you have seen it discussed, I'd be grateful



That would probably be an open back rounded vowel, [ɒ]. It is also used in my area (Bosnian Posavina), but chiefly by local Croats, who retain a number of ikavian-šćakavian features. An old, mildly disparaging joke of the feature:

- _Gdje ćeš?
- Idem na vɒːšer_.
- _Na __vɒːšer?! Pa danas ti na __vɒːšer idu samo selj__ɒːci!_


----------



## DenisBiH

Duya said:


> That would probably be an open back rounded vowel, [ɒ]. It is also used in my area (Bosnian Posavina), but chiefly by local Croats, who retain a number of ikavian-šćakavian features. An old, mildly disparaging joke of the feature:
> 
> - _Gdje ćeš?
> - Idem na vɒːšer_.
> - _Na __vɒːšer?! Pa danas ti na __vɒːšer idu samo selj__ɒːci!_




Interesting example. Here is another one I found on the net. 



> Joj kad ja i on stanemo cipat rastovinu tamo iza one Vejsilove njive, ti moajku...).



Thanks for identifying the vowel in question.


----------



## LilithE

I love your examples ( 'ti moajku'  and others )  It made me laugh because I can actually hear in my head how that sounds. Yes, we have them as well in some parts but that is not the 'sound' of the islands. 
I hope the moderators allow YouTube links because that seems the easiest way to give an example:
--link removed-- - Gego: _Dobar Don_
--link removed-- - Gego: _Ca nindir mira nimon_
All of his songs are sang in Hvar's dialect. Texts of the songs can be found on his web site as well.

That doesn't mean that is the speech of every island. There are many varieties but the 'sound' is relatively close to that one.


----------



## LilithE

Family nicknames are present everywhere on our coast ( well, in Dalmatia; I really don't know if it is the same case in Istria ). 
I supose that was a necessity at first - in small comunities there are ( or there used to be ) very few surnames and many persons with same names. Those became almost 'clan' names  - originally a nickname would probably identify just one single family but they are inherited so they have become the names for one branch of a particular family name. The fact that the nicknames are inherited is sometimes a bit annoying since they aren't always flattering ( quite the opposite ). So if you have the luck that your ancestor got that kind of a nickname, you are stuck with it as well. There is no real pattern - it isn't the case like with surnames that are often derived from father's name or the family business or something like that. Any flaw is an excellent material, any indiscretion, anecdote, etc. They had a lot of imagination for sure - some of those nicknames that I am familiar with are really funny ( but of course it wouldn't be ok to give them as examples - they often identify the persons better than their 'official' names ). 
It is also more likely that you would be called by that nickname than by your name. You can give your kid a really lovely name but it would be of no use. The other inhabitants would say _Look at little Womanizer, he is so cute_ - if one of your ancestors got such a nickname. 
You would get a nickname as a newcomer as well. Sometimes that is a 'proper' nickname but often also a derivation from the name of the town where you come from: Trogiranin, Zadranin, etc. ( for example Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac is sometimes mentioned as Juraj Dalmatinac Zadranin; Blaž Jurjev Trogiranin ... ).
Something similar to those last examples was popular during the Republic of Venice - a number of our artists would have a surname Schiavone ( 'Slav' ; that was a common Italian name for the artists born in Croatia ) when they were working and/or doing studies in Italy: Juraj Ćulinović's Italian name was Giorgio Schiavone ...


----------



## Sane Helle

Duya said:


> - _Gdje ćeš?
> - Idem na vɒːšer_.
> - _Na __vɒːšer?! Pa danas ti na __vɒːšer idu samo selj__ɒːci!_



Hi everyone! There seems to be a play on words here that I don't get... Maybe because I don't know what "vašer" means!

I know it is slightly off-topic, but could someone please clarify it for me?


----------



## LilithE

Vašar or sajam is pretty much the equivalent of the English word fair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair

So it was both economical and social event. In a way that was an old fashioned shopping mall for villagers.  
It was often organized on some kind of a plain and the inhabitants from more villages would participate there. 
_Selo_ - a village ; _seljak_ - a peasant, villager ...

In that example the word _seljak_/_seljaci _has other meaning -http://hjp.srce.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=dlZgXRc%3D  look under 3. - which is pretty insulting. We usually say _seljačina_ to make a difference between _seljak_ used in a usual context. _Seljačina_ doesn't have to do anywhing with a village; that person can be from a town or a city.

I am not sure if there is any pert of Croatia where the word _vašar_ is still used. We say _sajam_ for both those traditional ones ( where they still exist ), like _Benkovački sajam_, and for the modern ones like _Zagrebački velesajam_, various tourism fairs, World Fair, Universal Exposition, Expo etc.


----------



## stariman

LilithE said:


> I love your examples ( 'ti moajku'  and others )  It made me laugh because I can actually hear in my head how that sounds. Yes, we have them as well in some parts but that is not the 'sound' of the islands.
> I hope the moderators allow YouTube links because that seems the easiest way to give an example:
> --link removed-- - Gego: _Dobar Don_
> --link removed-- - Gego: _Ca nindir mira nimon_
> All of his songs are sang in Hvar's dialect. Texts of the songs can be found on his web site as well.
> 
> That doesn't mean that is the speech of every island. There are many varieties but the 'sound' is relatively close to that one.



When I first started to learn 'Croatian' ( no politics implied) I bought some music CDs and sat down with a dictonary to listen to 'Konoba', a lovely song, i soon failed to find most of the nouns, a friend then explained what all the Stari Grad words for barrel, bottle etc. are, I have since taken a greater interest in dialect.


----------

