# the final -d voice?



## pcplus

la d final de los past tenses suena como

"d" o "th" ?

Ex. Suppose*d*, playe*d, *a*dd*e*d...*

es el sonido de *Th*is y *th*ere o el de *d*og y *d*are??

es que he leído que es "voice", pero yo creo que la "d" es voice y el sonido "th" voiceless, porque esta última vibra


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## Ana_Fi

Que yo sepa suena como /d/ cuando va detrás de una sonora, como /t/ cuando va detrás de sorda y como /id/ cuando va detrás de d o t.
blamed /d/
stamped /t/
posted /id/
Creo que seríamuy difícil pronunciarlo /δ/.


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## JB

Ana_Fi said:


> Que yo sepa suena como /d/ cuando va detrás de una sonora, como /t/ cuando va detrás de sorda y como /id/ cuando va detrás de d o t.
> blamed /d/
> stamped /t/ _also* kicked, based. wished, bewitched, puffed. *_
> posted /id/
> Creo que seríamuy difícil pronunciarlo /δ/.


 
De acuerdo. 
La "d" de "blamed" es "voiced" (que se vibran las cuerdas vocales). Es como la "d" de "dog" en inglés.
La "t" de "stamped" es "unvoiced" and "aspirated" (sólo sale aire, pero más fuerte que en español). Same for the "k" sound, the "s", "sh", and "ch" sounds. (I emphasize *sound, *as opposed to the spelling which, unfortunately, is not so phonetic as Spanish. Probablemente, es mi culpa. Disculpe.) 

In English p, t and k are called "aspirated" consonants. 
For Spanish and the other Latin languages, they are non-aspirated (no forceful push of air)
La última sílaba de "posted" es "voiced" también. 

If it helps, p, t and k and the voiced equivalents of b, d and g (in English).


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:

Ambos Ana_Fi y jbruceismay tienen razón.  Pero necesita conocer también:

blamed - la */e/* es muda como blam'd
stamped - la */e/* es muda también, como stamp't

Pero despues de la "d" y la "t":

posted - la */e/* es sonora como la /e/ inicial en *e*res.

Nunca, en inglés, pronuncia la "d" final como "th".  Sin embargo, son dialectos de inglés en EEUU que pronuncia la "th" como "d", pero es mal inglés.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus:
> 
> Ambos Ana_Fi y jbruceismay tienen razón. Pero necesita conocer también:
> 
> blamed - la */e/* es muda como blam'd
> stamped - la */e/* es muda también, como stamp't
> 
> Pero despues de la "d" y la "t":
> 
> posted - la */e/* es sonora como la /e/ inicial en *e*res.
> 
> Nunca, en inglés, pronuncia la "d" final como "th". Sin embargo, son dialectos de inglés en EEUU que pronuncia la "th" como "d", pero es mal inglés.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


la regla es, los verbos terminados en sonido "d" y "t", se pronuncian "Id" al final: Added (addId), posted (postId), waited (waIted)

las que terminan en sonido vocal se pronuncian como "d", y la mayoría de consonantes que vibran, como "b", "v", "g", etc Ex: Blamed = BleImd

y las que terminan en P, T, K (voiceless sounds) como "t"): Ex: Stopped (Stopt)


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## sound shift

pcplus said:


> y las que terminan en P, T, K (voiceless sounds) como "t"): Ex: Stopped (Stopt)



Las que terminan en F, S también: Cuffed (Cuft), Missed (Mist)


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## pcplus

*/d/ and /δ/* son consonantes *voice*???


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## _Mozart_

pcplus said:


> */d/ and /δ/* son consonantes *voice*???


 
Efectivamente, ambos son voiced (o sonoros) */d/ *es Alveolar-Plosive-Voiced  y */δ/* es Dental-Fricative-Voiced.


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## _Mozart_

La regla de pronunciacion de la -d final de los pasados es simple:
*1°* Se debe considerar sólo el sonido de la palabra, NO el spelling
*2°* Si el último sonido del infinitivo es Voiced (sonoro) la -d final tambien suena voiced. Es decir */d/*
*3°* Si el último sonido del infinitivo es Voiceless (sordo)* la -d final tambien suena voiceless. Es decir */t/*
*4° *Si el último sonido del infinitivo es */d/* o */t/*-d final suena */Id/*

*Ejemplos*

*Call *Al pronunciar este infinitivo el ultimo sonido es */l/* (voiced) por lo tanto Called suena al final con */ld/*
*Stop *Al pronunciar este infinitivo el ultimo sonido es */p/* (voiceless) por lo tanto Stopped suena al final con */pt/*
*Esto aplica para todas las consonantes salvo /d/ y /t/*

*Want *Al pronunciar este infinitivo el ultimo sonido es */t/* por lo tanto *Wanted* suena al final con */Id/*
*Round *Al pronunciar este infinitivo el ultimo sonido es */d/* por lo tanto *Rounded* suena al final con */Id/*


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## _Mozart_

_Mozart_ said:


> .... Voiceless (sordo)*...


 
El decir SORDO para referirse a VOICELESS solo aplica para efectos fonéticos. Si bien puede decirse que un sonido es MUDO, la RAE en sus temas fonéticos-fonológicos prefiere llamarlos SORDOS.


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## roxcyn

Este sitio es genial para la pronunciación

http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php


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## mazbook

Hola _Mozart_:





_Mozart_ said:


> El decir SORDO para referirse a VOICELESS solo aplica para efectos fonéticos. Si bien puede decirse que un sonido es MUDO, la RAE en sus temas fonéticos-fonológicos prefiere llamarlos SORDOS.


Tiene razón, pero "sordo" es absolutemente differente de "mudo".  Las *"e"*s que yo referí ¡Son letras *mudas*, no son letras *sordas*!

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## _Mozart_

mazbook said:


> Hola _Mozart_:Tiene razón, pero "sordo" es absolutemente differente de "mudo". Las */e/*s que yo referí ¡Son letras *mudas*, no son letras *sordas*!
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 
Mazbook, como dije, aplica para efectos fonéticos, y se refiere a la NO vibración de las cuerdas vocales, a un *voiceless. *Si decimos que un sonido es mudo, decimos que no se pronuncia, como la *H *del español (que, logicamente, no tiene un fonema para su comportamiento mudo) Pero un Voiceless o Sordo, obviamente se pronuncia, pero al hacerlo las cuerdas no vibran. 

Por consiguiente, entre sonidos mudos y sordos existe una diferencia, el primero no se pronuncia, ni siquiera se articula. En los otros, sí se articula, se pronuncia y suena, pero para producirlo, no fue necesaria la vibración de las cuerdas vocales. 

El referirte a una /e/ muda no aplica, pues ya estás señalándola como fonema (por los //) y un fonema nunca es mudo (aunque sí puede ser sordo) y además, señalas el spelling de la palabra *blamed* y para efectos fonéticos, el spelling no se considera (por lo menos no en la fonética convencional y que es la que estudio hasta el momento)


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## mazbook

Hola _Mozart:

Tiene razón.  Discúlpe mi uso de los signos fonéticos //.   Ahora cambí has " ".  Las "e"s son muda.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

luego una cosa curiosa, el sonido "ed" de por ejemplo "wanted", y todos los verbos acabados en el sonido "d" o "t", que se supone que se pronuncian como /Id/, he escuchado muchas pronunciaciones diferentes

wanted /w>ntId/ estandar, se puede convertir en /want*e*d/ o /wa*ne*d/


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:





pcplus said:


> luego una cosa curiosa, el sonido "ed" de por ejemplo "wanted", y todos los verbos acabados en el sonido "d" o "t", que se supone que se pronuncian como /Id/, he escuchado muchas pronunciaciones diferentes
> 
> wanted /w>ntId/ estandar, se puede convertir en /want*e*d/ o /wa*ne*d/


No escuché muchas pronunciaciones diferentes para la "ed" final siguente de "t" o "d".  Creo casi todos dialectos de inglés pronuncian casi igual a la "ed" inicial en el nombre "*Ed*uardo".  No sé que es la pronunciación de la /Id/.

Probe el sitio http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php y puede oir la pronunciación normal.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

quiero decir que la "e" de wanted es la "i" de "*I*t *i*s a eas*y* feel*i*ng", es "Id" no "ed" segun lo que he estudiado


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:  En mi dialecto de inglés, NO es igual de la "i" de "it" o "is", pero es igual de la "y" de "easy" y más o menos igual de la "i" de "feeling".  Si pronuncia la "e" de "wanted" como la "e" español de "Eduardo" puede ser correcto in la mayoria de los dialectos de inglés, creo.  Cierto, *todos* le entienden.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Jigoku no Tenshi

Hello Everybody

Everything's ok, but do those rules only work with verbs?
Wicked sounds ['wɪkɪd] it has an "ed" sound ending not a "t" as the rules say, so I wonder again, do those rules only work with verbs?
if it isn't, wicked must be an exception 
if the rule doesn't aply to adjectives, nouns, adverbs, etc, I think somebody should say something about it

I hope I don't mess up with you because of this post but I noticed that and I don't want to go to bed thinking that somebody will say Wicked as Wickt

By the way I'm not native that's why I don't answer it


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## mazbook

Hola Jigoku no Tenshi:





Jigoku no Tenshi said:


> Hello Everybody
> 
> Everything's ok, but do those rules only work with verbs?
> Wicked sounds ['wɪkɪd] it has an "ed" sound ending not a "t" as the rules say, so I wonder again, do those rules only work with verbs?
> if it isn't, wicked must be an exception
> if the rule doesn't aply to adjectives, nouns, adverbs, etc, I think somebody should say something about it
> 
> I hope I don't mess up with you because of this post but I noticed that and I don't want to go to bed thinking that somebody will say Wicked as Wickt
> 
> By the way I'm not native that's why I don't answer it


*Yes*, the rule only works with verbs.  "Wicked"–adjective, and "wicked"–verb, are pronounced very differently and have totally different meanings.  The adjective, as you correctly point out, is pronounced "wick*ed*" and the verb is pronounced "wick*'t*".

I'm sure there must be some other rule for these cases, but I don't know what it is.  I'm just a native English speaker, not a phoneticist. 

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus: En mi dialecto de inglés, NO es igual de la "i" de "it" o "is", pero es igual de la "y" de "easy" y más o menos igual de la "i" de "feeling". Si pronuncia la "e" de "wanted" como la "e" español de "Eduardo" puede ser correcto in la mayoria de los dialectos de inglés, creo. Cierto, *todos* le entienden.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


pues ahora me entero que la "I" de "*i*t" y de "*i*s" es distinta de la de "feel*i*ng" y "Eas*y*", si fonéticamente se escribe "I" en todos esos casos. Supongo que será sólo en algunos dialectos, no el estandar


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:

Pues...si escribe /I/ en todos estos casos, ¡está *incorrecto*!

Si /I/ = *i*t, entonces

/I/ = *i*s  y 

/I/ = feel*i*ng en la mayoria de dialectos de inglés pero no siempre y

/I/ *= *eas*y  *pero posiblemente en dialectos que no conozco.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## caballoschica

tu d intervocálica es como el sonido th en inglés.  Por ejemplo:

Dado. Puede escribir los sonidos de dado en inglés como: *D*a*th*o. 

feeling, it: short "I" sound.  easee:long "e" sound


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## pcplus

looking in the dictionary: easy, it, is, and feeling are written the same

Eas*y* example:
http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=easy&dict=enes


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## mazbook

pcplus said:


> looking in the dictionary: easy, it, is, and feeling are written the same
> 
> Eas*y* example:
> http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=easy&dict=enes


My dictionary, _Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_, _copyright 1999, _shows it, is, and feeling as the same "i" but NOT easy.  Of course, it's a dictionary for U.S. English primarily—especially pronunciation.  I've never heard any English dialect where the "y" in easy was pronounced the same as the "i" in the other three words.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

pues yo he oido a gente decir "*wanned*" por "*wanted*" en americano coloquial


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> My dictionary, _Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_, _copyright 1999, _shows it, is, and feeling as the same "i" but NOT easy. Of course, it's a dictionary for U.S. English primarily—especially pronunciation. I've never heard any English dialect where the "y" in easy was pronounced the same as the "i" in the other three words.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


entonces "very" y todas las palabras terminadas en "y" se pronuncian como "easy" o es una excepción?. ¿Cuál sería el sonido de "easy"?? una "I" doble? e?


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## Jigoku no Tenshi

I'd say in "easy", "ea" is "ee" like in "leave" or "these" or I call it long "i" since we don't have that vowel sound in Spanish, but "y" is "i" like in "Live" or "this" just as it is the letter "i" in Spanish, so "easy" has two different vowel sounds just like the pair "leave" and "Live" or "these" "this"


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## mazbook

Hola Jigoku:





Jigoku no Tenshi said:


> I'd say in "easy", "ea" is "ee" like in "leave" or "these" or I call it long "i" since we don't have that vowel sound in Spanish, but "y" is "i" like in "Live" or "this" just as it is the letter "i" in Spanish, so "easy" has two different vowel sounds just like the pair "leave" and "Live" or "these" "this"


NOT in the U.S.!  "easy" is pronounced "ee zee", exactly the same vowel sound at the end as at the beginning.

A pcplus, Sí la "y" in "very", "easy", "many", "funny", y muchas palabras otras es siempre pronunciado como la "ee" de "see", nunca como la "i" de "live" o "this".

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Jigoku no Tenshi

mazbook said:


> Hola Jigoku:NOT in the U.S.! "easy" is pronounced "ee zee", exactly the same vowel sound at the end as at the beginning.
> 
> A pcplus, Sí la "y" in "very", "easy", "many", "funny", y muchas palabras otras es siempre pronunciado como la "ee" de "see", nunca como la "i" de "live" o "this".
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 
If that's the thruth, then I'm lost!, I'm going to need a new thread for this, because I'm not longer interested in the final -d voice, well I am, but this "easy" thing is not that easy, because it's like my eternal struggle for knowing why according to IPA transcription, "was" and "got" have the same vowel sound, but I pronounce it totally different or better why "were" and "where" for me sound the same, when the second one should have the "h" sound, or if "un-(word)" is more like "on" or "an"(Spanish sounds), well I could go on and on all night, I remember one thread where some people said that "fool" sounds just like "full" but for me they don't sound the same at all, just like "easy" for me both of its vowel sound different to me, I've learned most of my English hearing californian Punk rock and watching American sitcoms, so I don't have another influence further than my teachers who they all have a different accents, but I'll have make a poll about if the the sound "y" in "very", "easy", "many", "funny" etc, is the same one in feel. these, leave, etc

I'm sorry If was off of topic, but since English is not my native language, I had that and more in my mind when pronunciation is the work to do, I guess it must be the same whe people wants to learn Spanish, with our sounds when I heard the easy and the same vowel sound, and my insistance in the difference of vowel sounds, it must be just like if I correct someone about "c" and "z" because in Spain they sound different than "s", but in almost all America they "s", "c" ans "z" are the same, so I really have to go to bed now, but I hope I put some chili in this hot thread so we all can give a little more about our knowledge


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## mazbook

Hola Jigoku:





Jigoku no Tenshi said:


> If that's the thruth, then I'm lost!, I'm going to need a new thread for this, because I'm not longer interested in the final -d voice, well I am, but this "easy" thing is not that easy, because it's like my eternal struggle for knowing why according to IPA transcription, "was" and "got" have the same vowel sound, but I pronounce it totally different or better why "were" and "where" for me sound the same, when the second one should have the "h" sound, or if "un-(word)" is more like "on" or "an"(Spanish sounds), well I could go on and on all night, I remember one thread where some people said that "fool" sounds just like "full" but for me they don't sound the same at all, just like "easy" for me both of its vowel sound different to me, I've learned most of my English hearing californian Punk rock and watching American sitcoms, so I don't have another influence further than my teachers who they all have a different accents, but I'll have make a poll about if the the sound "y" in "very", "easy", "many", "funny" etc, is the same one in feel. these, leave, etc
> 
> I'm sorry If was off of topic, but since English is not my native language, I had that and more in my mind when pronunciation is the work to do, I guess it must be the same whe people wants to learn Spanish, with our sounds when I heard the easy and the same vowel sound, and my insistance in the difference of vowel sounds, it must be just like if I correct someone about "c" and "z" because in Spain they sound different than "s", but in almost all America they "s", "c" ans "z" are the same, so I really have to go to bed now, but I hope I put some chili in this hot thread so we all can give a little more about our knowledge


Feel free to put up as many threads as you feel you need.  I'll be glad to contribute my knowledge of the subject as it relates to the phonetics of U.S. English in comparison with Mexican Spanish.  I've done quite a lot of work on this, as it was necessary for my Mexican Spanish phrasebook, _Enjoy México in Spanish_.  I had to develop a phonetic equivalents table for the Spanish letters as they would be pronounced by a person speaking "standard" (west coast, más o menos) U.S. English.  It wasn't easy.

I've done *some* work already on the opposite, standard U.S. English for those who speak Mexican Spanish, but so far it's been informal, as the only book I have published for students of English is, _Ríete en Inglés - 200 Chistes Bilingües - Inglés de los Estados Unidos-español de México, _por Jeremy Taylor_.  _That book didn't need a pronunciation guide, but I have been doing some work on the subject for my Mexican wife and Mexican children who are all studying English.

Some notes on the other questions you raised.  "were" and "where" sound completely different, even in dialects of English that DON'T pronounce the "h".  The "un" in "un-(word)" doesn't really sound like the English "on" OR "an".  I'll have to think about that one some.  Sometimes it's VERY difficult, as English has about 46 phonemes and Spanish only has about 23.  This makes it very difficult to find Spanish equivalents for some English sounds, sometimes, particularly the vowel sounds.

Ask all the questions you want.  That's why this forum exists!

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## Jigoku no Tenshi

Thanks for being sympathetic, I meant "an" or "on" as it sounds in Spanish for example, "angustia" or "ondulado" I know "an" and "on" don't sound like "un-" in unknown for example, "un-" has the same vowel sound that has "cut" but in Spanish we have just five vowel sounds and since it is my mother language I'd say those are pure even if it isn't, but English have at least eight different to Spanish, so is harder learn them more if you used to have only five that were aplied in your language, that's why I try to learn English by first listening and then checking the writting, but most of the times I do it backwards, but I think I want to be like a parrot and a dog combined in one, parrots can talk well but don't understand, and dogs understand but can't talk, well I'm still more dog than parrot, so good luck in your research, I hope it'll help us all someday


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## mazbook

Hola Jigoku:

Here is a website that would be VERY helpful to you.  I learned of it on this forum not too long ago.

http://www.research.att.com/%7Ettsweb/tts/demo.php

Just choose the speaker and the language you want to hear, type in the word, phrase or sentence, and listen to it being pronounced clearly by a native speaker.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> Hola Jigoku:
> 
> Here is a website that would be VERY helpful to you. I learned of it on this forum not too long ago.
> 
> http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php
> 
> Just choose the speaker and the language you want to hear, type in the word, phrase or sentence, and listen to it being pronounced clearly by a native speaker.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


I'm in a mess, I can see you the Mexico flag in the item, but you are a Native English American Speaker too. Then are you mid-US mid Mexican?


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> Hola Jigoku:NOT in the U.S.! "easy" is pronounced "ee zee", exactly the same vowel sound at the end as at the beginning.
> 
> A pcplus, Sí la "y" in "very", "easy", "many", "funny", y muchas palabras otras es siempre pronunciado como la "ee" de "see", nunca como la "i" de "live" o "this".
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


in England "easy" is "eezi"???


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:





pcplus said:


> I'm in a mess, I can see you the Mexico flag in the item, but you are a Native English American Speaker too. Then are you mid-US mid Mexican?


My avatar consists of 3 layers.  The bottom layer is the Great Seal of the United States of America—the eagle holding the olive branch of peace in one claw and the arrows of war in the other. My first citizenship. 

The middle layer is the flag of the State of New Mexico—the Zia pueblo indian symbol for the sun on a gold/yellow background.  This represents the state where I grew up, was educated and was in business most of my life.  Also, it's the first, and until Hawaii, the only *constitutionally* bilingual state in the United States.  Because of New Mexico and Hawaii, there can never be a law making English the only (legal) language of the United States!

The top layer is, of course, the flag of the United Mexican States—*México*, my new country!  I'm in the process of becoming a naturalized Mexican citizen as I write.

As far as the pronunciation of "easy", I'm pretty certain that in Enland it is "ee zee" or in Spanish, "ii sii" where the "s" is like the "s" in "mismo", just as it is in the U.S.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus:My avatar consists of 3 layers. The bottom layer is the Great Seal of the United States of America—the eagle holding the olive branch of peace in one claw and the arrows of war in the other. My first citizenship.
> 
> The middle layer is the flag of the State of New Mexico—the Zia pueblo indian symbol for the sun on a gold/yellow background. This represents the state where I grew up, was educated and was in business most of my life. Also, it's the first, and until Hawaii, the only *constitutionally* bilingual state in the United States. Because of New Mexico and Hawaii, there can never be a law making English the only (legal) language of the United States!
> 
> The top layer is, of course, the flag of the United Mexican States—*México*, my new country! I'm in the process of becoming a naturalized Mexican citizen as I write.
> 
> As far as the pronunciation of "easy", I'm pretty certain that in Enland it is "ee zee" or in Spanish, "ii sii" where the "s" is like the "s" in "mismo", just as it is in the U.S.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


thanx. Now I'm wondering, why does the transcription phonetic in the dictionary is written like /I:ze/ and not /I:zI/??


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## mazbook

Hola pcplus:





pcplus said:


> thanx. Now I'm wondering, why does the transcription phonetic in the dictionary is written like /I:zI/ and not /I:zI:/??


There are many phonetic symbol systems used by different dictionaries.  In my dictionary, it is written /é ze/ using the symbol /e with a line above it/ (in both positions) to represent the sound I wrote as /ee/ (called the "long e" in English grammar classes) and the tilde or acento to show the stressed syllable.  This sound is identical to the Spanish "i", but much more drawn out, as English gives each vowel sound about twice the "time" that Spanish does.

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## pcplus

I know the short "i", but the mistake is http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=easy&dict=enes

the last "*y*" in "easy" is set as the short "i" in "*i*t" and "*i*s" ----> I
English has 12 vowels sound and they shouldn't have set that "I" but the "3" upside-down


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## former_chomsky_advocate

jbruceismay said:


> De acuerdo.
> La "d" de "blamed" es "voiced" (que se vibran las cuerdas vocales). Es como la "d" de "dog" en inglés.
> La "t" de "stamped" es "unvoiced" and "aspirated" (sólo sale aire, pero más fuerte que en español). Same for the "k" sound, the "s", "sh", and "ch" sounds. (I emphasize *sound, *as opposed to the spelling which, unfortunately, is not so phonetic as Spanish. Probablemente, es mi culpa. Disculpe.)
> 
> In English p, t and k are called "aspirated" consonants.
> For Spanish and the other Latin languages, they are non-aspirated (no forceful push of air)
> La última sílaba de "posted" es "voiced" también.
> 
> If it helps, p, t and k and the voiced equivalents of b, d and g (in English).


I'm sorry, but PTK are not called aspirated consonants.  They are aspirated word initially, but they certainly are not called "aspirated."  In your explanation above, you are confusing aspirated with voicing.


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## RussUS

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus:No escuché muchas pronunciaciones diferentes para la "ed" final siguente de "t" o "d". Creo casi todos dialectos de inglés pronuncian casi igual a la "ed" inicial en el nombre "*Ed*uardo". No sé que es la pronunciación de la /Id/.
> 
> Probe el sitio http://www.research.att.com/%7Ettsweb/tts/demo.php y puede oir la pronunciación normal.
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán


 
Hello Mazbook,

(Before I begin I should note that I am referring only to AE, not BE.)

I'm sure in your seemingly extensive studies, you've come across many times, the very common sound in English, the schwa, represented in dictionary phonetics by an upside down e, or an ampersand "&." This is the sound made by the final e in wanted. 

Unfortunately I can't make my computer work with the pronunciation site you and others have provided, but I have been an English speaker all my life, have traveled to 42 of the 50 United States. I have never heard any speaker pronounce the word wanted with anything other than a schwa.


Russ


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## former_chomsky_advocate

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus:No escuché muchas pronunciaciones diferentes para la "ed" final siguente de "t" o "d". Creo casi todos dialectos de inglés pronuncian casi igual a la "ed" inicial en el nombre "*Ed*uardo". No sé que es la pronunciación de la /Id/.


 
I'm sorry, but this information is completely inaccurate.  The pronunciation of -t or -d is very much alive in every single major USA dialect.

walked - walkt

work -


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## former_chomsky_advocate

mazbook said:


> Hola pcplus:No escuché muchas pronunciaciones diferentes para la "ed" final siguente de "t" o "d". Creo casi todos dialectos de inglés pronuncian casi igual a la "ed" inicial en el nombre "*Ed*uardo". No sé que es la pronunciación de la /Id/.


 
I'm sorry, but this information is completely inaccurate. The pronunciation of -t or -d is very much alive in every single major USA dialect.

walked - walkt

work - workt


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## mazbook

Hola advocat:





former_chomsky_advocate said:


> I'm sorry, but this information is completely inaccurate. The pronunciation of -t or -d is very much alive in every single major USA dialect.
> 
> walked - walkt
> 
> work - workt


I was writing *ONLY* about the "ed" after "t" or "d".  You're absolutely correct about the "ed" after "k".

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## mazbook

Hola Russ:





RussUS said:


> Hello Mazbook,
> 
> (Before I begin I should note that I am referring only to AE, not BE.)
> 
> I'm sure in your seemingly extensive studies, you've come across many times, the very common sound in English, the schwa, represented in dictionary phonetics by an upside down e, or an ampersand "&." This is the sound made by the final e in wanted.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't make my computer work with the pronunciation site you and others have provided, but I have been an English speaker all my life, have traveled to 42 of the 50 United States. I have never heard any speaker pronounce the word wanted with anything other than a schwa.
> 
> 
> Russ


I agree with you 100% about the regular, everyday pronunciation of "ed" after "t" and "d".  Nearly all native English speakers in the U.S. will pronounce the "e" as a schwa.  BUT, sometimes it's much easier to explain the correct (pedantic?) pronunciation to a native Spanish speaker than to try and explain the common use of the schwa (which, after all, has more than one pronunciation) for unstressed vowels.  

If a public speaker said want&d rather than wanted, I, for one, would consider him a "mush-mouth".  It's a LOT easier to explain English pronunciation of properly enunciated (no schwas) words. 

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## former_chomsky_advocate

mazbook said:


> Hola advocat:I was writing *ONLY* about the "ed" after "t" or "d".  You're absolutely correct about the "ed" after "k".
> 
> Saludos desde Mazatlán



Ah, en este caso le pido disculpas por mis equivocaciones de interpretacion...No lei lo suficiente.


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## former_chomsky_advocate

RussUS said:


> Hello Mazbook,
> 
> (Before I begin I should note that I am referring only to AE, not BE.)
> 
> I'm sure in your seemingly extensive studies, you've come across many times, the very common sound in English, the schwa, represented in dictionary phonetics by an upside down e, or an ampersand "&." This is the sound made by the final e in wanted.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't make my computer work with the pronunciation site you and others have provided, but I have been an English speaker all my life, have traveled to 42 of the 50 United States. I have never heard any speaker pronounce the word wanted with anything other than a schwa.
> 
> 
> Russ



To my ear (and to my spectrogram) the sound is much more open than a schwa.


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## RussUS

Mazbook,

Even public speakers pronounce the e in wanted with a schwa. If you hear somebody using the /e/ sound, they would sound stilted and false. The schwa sound is used in fact in English in a majority of unaccented syllables, by the full range of speakers, educated or not, and is certainly not a sign of improper enunciation.

Because dictionaries do not provide pronunciations of inflected words, I provide for you, from Webster online dictionary, the pronunciation of "added," which I think with regard to the "ed" is pronounced the same as wanted:

"Main Entry: *val·ue-add·ed* 
Pronunciation: 'val-(")yü-'a-d&d
Function: _adjective"_

Interestingly, explaining the schwa, along with the ash and short i, /I/ sound are the three things I stress to Spanish speakers learning English to avoid "sounding funny" to native English speakers. Albeit only after they are somewhat advanced are they able to accomplish this, but I hate to think somebody as respected and widely listened to as you seem to be would teach any of them from the start to pronounce all these unaccented e's as the e in Eduardo or eres.

Looks like we may not come to agreement on this issue, but I do invite you to check out some more references, and listen to that particular sound when spoken by native speakers.

Russ


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## former_chomsky_advocate

Russus, have you ever used a program called "Waverunner?"

Or...have you ever worked with a spectrogram?


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## RussUS

former_chomsky_advocate said:


> Russus, have you ever used a program called "Waverunner?"
> 
> Or...have you ever worked with a spectrogram?


 
No I haven't.


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## former_chomsky_advocate

RussUS said:


> No I haven't.



I've put my speech through a spectrogram.

Vowels come out having various vibrations clustered at various frequencies, they're called "Formants."

The value of the first formant corresponds directly to mouth aperture, showing a clear distinction between I/U and EO and A....and the second formant correlates directly to front/back of tongue position.

The formants that I've seen, of my own speech, show me using the "e" of "ed" at clearly higher than a schwa.  I've not analyzed anyone else's speech this way.  Perhaps now would be a good time, once I reach 30 posts and can post links and pictures.


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## mazbook

Hola Russ:





RussUS said:


> Mazbook,
> 
> Even public speakers pronounce the e in wanted with a schwa. If you hear somebody using the /e/ sound, they would sound stilted and false. The schwa sound is used in fact in English in a majority of unaccented syllables, by the full range of speakers, educated or not, and is certainly not a sign of improper enunciation.
> 
> Because dictionaries do not provide pronunciations of inflected words, I provide for you, from Webster online dictionary, the pronunciation of "added," which I think with regard to the "ed" is pronounced the same as wanted:
> 
> "Main Entry: *val·ue-add·ed*
> Pronunciation: 'val-(")yü-'a-d&d
> Function: _adjective"_
> 
> Interestingly, explaining the schwa, along with the ash and short i, /I/ sound are the three things I stress to Spanish speakers learning English to avoid "sounding funny" to native English speakers. Albeit only after they are somewhat advanced are they able to accomplish this, but I hate to think somebody as respected and widely listened to as you seem to be would teach any of them from the start to pronounce all these unaccented e's as the e in Eduardo or eres.
> 
> Looks like we may not come to agreement on this issue, but I do invite you to check out some more references, and listen to that particular sound when spoken by native speakers.
> 
> Russ


And here is what my _Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary _showed as the pronunciation of "value-added":

*value-added  *(val' yoo ad' id) — the oo had a line over the o's, but no schwa.  Since this dictionary (on CD) has the pronunciations also, I checked and the person pronouncing said it clearly as "i".

Then, just to check, I ran both wanted and added through all 5 speakers in the AT&T program.  Results:

*wanted* - 2 clearly "ed", 2 clearly "&", 1 _probably_ "i"
*added* - 3 clearly "i", 2 _probably _"&"

This just goes to show that even in U.S. English, pronunciation varies greatly.  I think I'll continue to teach the more pedantic (_probably a better word than correct, which is somewhat of a "loaded" word_) Spanish "ed", which, I would point out is NOT the same as the English "ed" in "*Ed*ward".

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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## former_chomsky_advocate

Peter Ladefoged makes a distinction between a standard Schwa and "the sound in past tense of -ed"

http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipachart.html

His IPA charts are found above, and recordings can be found below

http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/handbook.htm  (in a zipped format)

You can hear him pronounce them below:
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/vowels/contents.html

The above site is VERY worth browsing around time...give yourself 8 to 10 hours...


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## former_chomsky_advocate

http://www.ling.mq.edu.au/speech/ph.../broad_transcription/broad_transcription.html

More links to listen to.


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## RussUS

Mazbook & Former- etc,

Well what fun! As I note often happens in the forum, we have gone substantially afield of the original question. Nevertheless, I think the discussion has been of great value. Certainly to me. I finally added the missing .dll so I could hear all the sites you and others so graciously posted. 

Oh foolish me, of course wanted is often pronounced with the /I/ sound. (You said above Mazbook, that you didn't know how to pronounce that. It is the commonly accepted linguistic notation for the short i.) I have not, however, either in dictionaries or the voiced sites, heard or seen anything to indicate it is spoken as /e/. 

There was some discussion above concerning aspirated and unaspirated p, t, and k's. Would you agree with my contention that the t in wanted, when spoken before /I/ and /&/ are unaspirated? If we can take that for a given, I also contend, that in order to pronounce the e as /e/, the t would have to be aspirated, making an entirely different sound.

Try that on a bit and see what you think. As I said, I have thoroughly enjoyed all this. Thank you both and all the other posters. 

"May all your troubles be small ones."

Russ


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## former_chomsky_advocate

> Would you agree with my contention that the t in wanted, when spoken before /I/ and /&/ are unaspirated? If we can take that for a given, I also contend, that in order to pronounce the e as /e/, the t would have to be aspirated, making an entirely different sound.


The first part of your proposition is definitely true.

As for the second part, overwhelmingly, English aspirates the unvoiced consonants only word initially.  Give me some time, however, as it is precisely THIS phonetic environment which causes a LOT of, for lack of a better word, "odd" things to happen to the T, and I will post some links that deal with this situation.  IT could be that we're having a dialect disagreement.  For me, the T would not be aspirated.

http://linguistics.byu.edu/faculty/eddingtond/flapping.pdf


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## mazbook

Hola Russ:





			
				RussUS said:
			
		

> Would you agree with my contention that the t in wanted, when spoken before /I/ and /&/ are unaspirated? If we can take that for a given, I also contend, that in order to pronounce the e as /e/, the t would have to be aspirated, making an entirely different sound.


I would agree with you 100%, but in the dialect of English I speak (western, southwestern U.S.) the "t" *is* aspirated yet many still pronounce the "ed" as "&d".  I don't, but many do.  Maybe this is one of the reasons I'm sometimes called pedantic. 

Saludos desde Mazatlán


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