# spanish and portuguese



## eckertBR

Hi!

I don't know if I'm supose to write this in english, but I have doubts about spanish and portuguese. I want to know if what I'm going to say happens to only "me" or to every portuguese native speaker. I've always thought that portguese and spanish sounded really alike, but I went to texas and I met some mexicans studants and I really tried to communicate with them in portuguese, although they woudn't understant crap! And I would just get 30% of what they were trying to say in spanish. So we didn't have any communication at all based upon what I've just written, we had to speak in english. My question is: Is it normal to spanish speakers not to understant very much the portuguese language when no portuguese knowledge is present. And is it only in mexican spanish or all the spanish dialects hard to be understood by a brazilian or so??

Thanks!


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## MOC

Olá.

O que eu aprendi acima de tudo por viagens e contacto directo com pessoas desses países:
- A generalidade dos espanhóis "apanha" muito pouco do português de portugal, em contrapartida, os portugueses em geral, mesmo os que não falam espanhol percebem algo do que é dito em castelhano. 
- Em geral os habitantes dos países de lingua oficial espanhola na américa do sul entendem com maior facilidade o português do Brasil do que o de Portugal.
- Isso alastra-se a outros idiomas, já que verifiquei que as pessoas do norte da europa a aprender português entendem mais facilmente o do Brasil (julgo que tenha a ver com o facto de não ser tão fechado como o de Portugal).

Agora por opinião pessoal já que falo os dois idiomas, o Espanhol de espanha e de qualquer país do sul da américa do sul (argentina, uruguai, paraguai) são muito fáceis de compreender. O de países como Cuba e México exige da minha parte atenção redobrada.

Isto são obviamente apenas opiniões, mas coincidem com tudo o que disseste por isso acho que pelo menos muito anormal não deve ser.


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## eckertBR

Muito obrigado pelos comentários MOC. Eu, na minha opinião, não sei o que é mais difícil: Um nativo da língua espanhola entender a um nativo do português ou vice-versa. Mas uma coisa eu sei, ambas línguas são pelo menos entendidas através da escrita. Realmente, como é engraçado analizarmos as semlhanças desses diferentes idiomas. Como sou brasileiro e não tenho nenhum conhecimento pleno sobre a história de portugal e espanha em seus tempos medievais, alguém poderia me dizer se essas duas línguas um dia foram uma só?


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## edupa

Não exatamente.

Como vc sabe, ambas línguas têm em sua base o Latim. Acontece que o Latim, que à certa altura se espalhou por boa parte da Europa, não agiu como uma coisa só, um monolito.

Imagine que, a partir da região do Lácio (perto de Roma) hoje na Itália, partiam vários tipos de missões do Império Romano, com diferentes objetivos. As influências, as notícias, as regras do Império obviamente chegavam em tempo e modo diferentes em cada região.

Um dos motivos para isso eram os povos locais, que recebiam a nova língua à sua maneira, com sua própria língua de origem como base. A língua também era obviamente recebida de maneira diversa em termos de tempo e de intensidade. Isso variava conforme a distância da região em relação ao Império. Portanto, a região da atual Itália recebia essa influência de maneira mais direta e rápida, ao passo que regiões como a de Portugal recebiam essas influências muito tempo depois, e com outro tipo de intensidade.

De maneira que o português e o que chamamos de língua espanhola (que, na realidade, é a língua castelhana politicamente imposta/forçada a todo habitante da Espanha) se desenvolveram em lugares e tempos diferentes.

O que acabou sendo aceitado como língua oficial de Portugal (i.e.: o português) passou por um tempo por uma fase conhecida como Galego-Português, falado na Lusitânia (atual Portugal e região espanhola da Galícia, norte de Portugal). Era uma língua basicamente usada pelos cristãos portugueses do Norte, após a expulsão dos árabes para o Sul, onde obviamente surgiram línguas com base árabe. 

Mais tarde, o avanço dos portugueses do Norte, falantes do galego-português, para o Sul, onde se falavam as línguas de base árabe, inicia ali o processo de diferenciação do galego-português em relação àquela modalidade falada ao Norte de Portugal. A independência de Portugal em 1185 levou o novo estado a, por fim, se comunicar oficialmente naquela nova modalidade de "galego-português" que havia se desenvolvido mais ao Sul, especificamente a falada na região da capital de Portugual, Lisboa. A essa língua se deu o nome de português.

O resto é história 

Abs!


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## JGreco

My personal opinion is that all dialects of either Portuguese or Castellano has varying degree of intelligability depending on how much slang or dialectal usage ("Jergas" in Castellano). Many people in South Texas and from rural mountainous regions of Mexico that may have more indigenous speech patterns in their tone plus rapidability of speech might be more difficult to understand and pose a problem to native Portuguese speakers no matter the variety. Rapidability of speech of Cuban speakers and Madrilen~o speakers may also pose a problem for Portuguese speakers to understand. This also occurs with the heavy accents that exists mainly in Portugal such as Algarvan or Azorian but also in areas of Brasil like in Rio (specifically Carioca), or in Northern brasil were exists such strong accents that any speaker of standard Castellano would be hard pressed to understand any spoken word. You compare that to the portuguese spoken in the south (around Rio Grande do Sul), Santa Catarina, Sao Paulo, Brasilia, or in Portugal in the North and compare it to Spanish spoken in Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, Mexico City (distrito federal) and there would be a high level of inteligability with those particular dialects. Comming from experience my mom is from around Florianopolis and she married my father who is from Panama and she does not have problems understanding him she said even when she first met him on a cruise in the Caribbean. She speaks Portuguese to him and he speaks spanish back. She has friends from Argentina, Panama, Colombia, and Venezuela that she can communicate fine with and not once do I hear her speak spanish to them (her best friend is from Panama and she speaks in Portuguese to her). I have cousins who are from the Algarve area of Portugal which that I can hardly communicate with and I understand Portuguese! My point is that there are high levels of mutual intelligability when standard forms of each accents are used minus the slang terms (jergas in spanish).


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## Outsider

eckertBR said:


> Como sou brasileiro e não tenho nenhum conhecimento pleno sobre a história de portugal e espanha em seus tempos medievais, alguém poderia me dizer se essas duas línguas um dia foram uma só?


Só quando ainda eram latim.


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## Alandria

Sempre desconfiei que os estrangeiros tivessem mais facilidade em entender os sulistas no Brasil, a cada dia fico convencida disso, motivos:

O dialeto sulista é um dos menos nasais da língua portuguesa (alguns chegam a ser até menos nasais do que o português do norte de Portugal, juro).
O dialeto sulista possui muitas vogais fechadas, se opondo ao nordeste, onde são super abertas.
O sulista normalmente não chia, possui um S sibilante (com exceção dos florianopolitanos), se opondo ao Rio de Janeiro cujo S é chiante.
O sulista tende a não elevar as vogais.

Ótimo exemplo de um sotaque sulista: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6hIydHE3M


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## eckertBR

take a look at this (a medieval portuguese poetry):

Das que vejo non desejo outra senhor se vós non, e desejo tan sobejo, mataria um leon, senhor do meu coraçon: fin roseta,bela sobre toda fror, fin roseta,non me meta en tal coita voss'amor! João de Lobeira
(c. 1270–1330)


First time I saw it, I did think it was a different language, something around spanish, or french maybe. But not the portuguese now a days. As a matter of fact, can someone please translate that poetry to the "actual" portuguese? So I can understand that


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## Nuska5

Hola, 

Soy española, estudiante de portugués en Madrid y en mi opinión ambos idiomas se parecen en cuanto que ambos tienen origen en el latin, pero ahí se acaba la coincidencia, ni la manera de construir las frases, ni el uso de tiempos verbales, ni el uso del infinitivo, ni los acentos coinciden...
(en algunas cosas es parecido al castellano antiguo...)

Los españoles (que no estudian portugués) no entienden en general el portugués. Entienden portuñol que es la mezcla que en muchos casos se emplea para que españoles y portugués se entiendan.
A la inversa los portugueses si entienden el castellano y chapurrean o hablan (suelen tener relación con empresas españolas, viven cerca de la frontera, ven la televisión española...)

Especialmente problemático son los acentos y la pronunciación... al menos para mí....después de casí 3 años....


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## marcoszorrilla

Yo creo que un español y un portugués medianamente cultos, siempre y cuando se hable despacio se entienden perféctamente, al menos a un 80 por 100.

De hecho en reuniones internacionales, yo siempre me siento a la mesa con portugueses por la lógica de la cercanía y nos entendemos perfectamente cada uno  hablando nuestro idioma.

Muito obrigado.


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## Vanda

> Yo creo que un español y un portugués medianamente cultos, siempre y cuando se hable despacio se entienden perféctamente, al menos a un 80 por 100.


 
Concordo Marcos. Já disse, outrora, numa discussão antiga aqui no fórum que dá para "nos virarmos" com um pouco de boa vontade ou por pura necessidade mesmo.  Já contei também a experiência de um amigo que falava português para ser entendido um mínimo quando estava visitando uma das praias famosas da Espanha. As outras opções dele eram piores  : alemão ou checo. Agora imagine o coitado falando português com sotaque de estrangeiro na Espanha. O que importa é que ele ficou feliz em se fazer entender pelo menos um pouquinho. 
Para os meus ouvidos, o espanhol da Espanha é mais fácil, no  primeiro minuto, de ser entendido do que o de nossos vizinhos argentinos. Contudo, é sempre uma questão de hábito. Tenho um amigo argentino e já não tenho dificuldades em entendê-lo "de cara"!


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## sara_gdleon

a mi me parece que es más fácil para un brasileño entender el español que para un mexicano entenderlo hablado, pero si está escrito es casi 100% comprendido.
En cuanto a la velocidad con que hablan, incfluye mucho, incluso si se trata del mismo idioma, yo soy mexicana y nosotros muchas veces no entendemos lo que dicen los argentinos, colombianos, puerto riqueños, etc. cada país, incluso estado, tiene su propio acento y regionalismos, además de tener las mismas palabras con diferente significado lo que complica la comunicación.


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## Outsider

eckertBR said:


> Das que vejo
> non desejo
> outra senhor se vós non,
> e desejo
> tan sobejo,
> mataria um leon,
> senhor do meu coraçon:
> fin roseta,
> bela sobre toda fror,
> fin roseta,
> non me meta
> en tal coita voss'amor!
> João de Lobeira
> (c. 1270–1330)


_Das que vejo, 
não desejo 
outra senhora senão vós

E desejo 
tão grande 
mataria um leão,
Senhora do meu coração:

Fina [?] roseta, 
bela acima de toda flor
Fina [?] roseta, 
não me ponha 
em tal sofrimento o voss'amor!_

Não é assim tão diferente.


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## Vanda

_



Senhora do meu coração:
Fina [?] roseta, 
bela acima de toda flor
Fina [?] roseta, 

Click to expand...

_ 
Out, foi exatamente por causa desse pedacinho que fiquei engasgada. 
Vamos especular um pouquinho, poderia ser:
Fina rosa?!?


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## btownmeggy

I've read that Portuguese and Spanish have an asymmetrical mutual intelligibility, that is, that Portuguese speakers generally can understand Spanish better than Spanish speakers can understand Portuguese.  This makes sense considering that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish (via Galician).  Many Portuguese words look and sound like Spanish words, just missing a letter or two.

However, I think many people have an overestimation of the mutual intelligibility of Portuguese and Spanish.  I've had many Spanish speakers tell me they understand Portuguese completely, but when I've spoken it to them, they couldn't understand very much at all.


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## Outsider

btownmeggy said:


> This makes sense considering that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish (via Galician).


Whoever told you that does not know much about Spanish or Portuguese.


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## btownmeggy

Outsider said:


> Whoever told you that does not know much about Spanish or Portuguese.



Or maybe you don't?

See the following Wikipedia articles: Portuguese language - History, History of Portuguese, História da língua portuguesa – O despertar da Língua Portuguesa


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## Outsider

btownmeggy said:


> See the following Wikipedia articles: Portuguese language - History, History of Portuguese, História da língua portuguesa – O despertar da Língua Portuguesa


Do they say that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish? I've never noticed such a preposterous claim at Wikipedia.


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## edupa

btownmeggy said:


> This makes sense considering that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish (via Galician). quote]
> 
> 
> Hey, btownmeggy! I'm afraid I gotta go along with Outsider and say that that claim is inaccurate on both historical and linguistic grounds.
> 
> If Wikipedia says so, shame on them...
> 
> Abraços!


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## btownmeggy

First, a couple of definitions of deviation:

*deviation*
_noun_1. a variation that deviates from the standard or norm; "the deviation from the mean" 2. the difference between an observed value and the expected value of a variable or function 
5. a turning aside (of your course or attention or concern); "a diversion from the main highway"; "a digression into irrelevant details"; "a deflection from his goal" 

In sum, a deviation is a digression, a moving away from, a progress towards being different.

As the Wikipedia article História da língua portuguesa notes in the sub-section "O despertar da Língua Portuguesa" (and as found in numerous books on the history of the Portuguese language and as first instilled in my mind by various doctors of historical linguistics I know and study with that specialize in Portuguese), the language that in the late 16th century would start to be called "Portugues" did not exist in the country now called Portugal until the "reconquest" of Portugal by the Galicians  in the 12th century.

Then the question must be raised,  What is the history of language in Galicia?  From the 8th century, Galicia was part of the  kingdoms of Asturias and Leon.  The  dialects left over the Roman  had not as significantly diverged as they have today, and in the early middle ages the languages spoken by Christians in the Northern Part of the  Iberian Peninsula were very similar.  They were "early Spanish".  By the 11th and 12th centuries, the languages had begun to deviate.  Galician continued to develop into a more distinct dialect, and was even used in other parts of Spain for being a particularly poetic form of speech and writing.  As I noted earlier, Galicians would  soon bring their language to Portugual  and Galician-Portuguese, a term still frequently used today to refer to the  one language that is spoken with few differences in both Portugal and Galicia, was born.

Of course, as we all know, Portuguese, like any language, has drawn upon dozens of languages throughout its formation and has lend words from many far away places.  This is the nature of language, created by the need to communicate feelings and desires that know no borders.  Language is perhaps the only substantial border and it is easily wrent asunder.


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## edupa

btownmeggy said:


> First, a couple of definitions of deviation:
> 
> *deviation*
> _noun_1. a variation that deviates from the standard or norm; "the deviation from the mean" 2. the difference between an observed value and the expected value of a variable or function
> 5. a turning aside (of your course or attention or concern); "a diversion from the main highway"; "a digression into irrelevant details"; "a deflection from his goal"
> 
> In sum, a deviation is a digression, a moving away from, a progress towards being different.
> 
> As the Wikipedia article História da língua portuguesa notes in the sub-section "O despertar da Língua Portuguesa" (and as found in numerous books on the history of the Portuguese language and as first instilled in my mind by various doctors of historical linguistics I know and study with that specialize in Portuguese), the language that in the late 16th century would start to be called "Portugues" did not exist in the country now called Portugal until the "reconquest" of Portugal by the Galicians in the 12th century.
> 
> Then the question must be raised, What is the history of language in Galicia? From the 8th century, Galicia was part of the kingdoms of Asturias and Leon. The dialects left over the Roman had not as significantly diverged as they have today, and in the early middle ages the languages spoken by Christians in the Northern Part of the Iberian Peninsula were very similar. They were "early Spanish". By the 11th and 12th centuries, the languages had begun to deviate. Galician continued to develop into a more distinct dialect, and was even used in other parts of Spain for being a particularly poetic form of speech and writing. As I noted earlier, Galicians would soon bring their language to Portugual and Galician-Portuguese, a term still frequently used today to refer to the one language that is spoken with few differences in both Portugal and Galicia, was born.
> 
> Of course, as we all know, Portuguese, like any language, has drawn upon dozens of languages throughout its formation and has lend words from many far away places. This is the nature of language, created by the need to communicate feelings and desires that know no borders. Language is perhaps the only substantial border and it is easily wrent asunder.


 

btownmeggy, your very account of how Portuguese came about goes against your claim that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish. 

Also, of course the language português did not exist until Portugal became independent. That claim is akin to saying that the dollar did not exist before Columbus arrived in America. We need people to assign a name to a certain language already spoken in a given area, and that's what you seem to be missing. Sorry if I sound blunt...

As for the numerous scholars (could you name a few?) and especialized books (could you name a few?) you claim to have consulted, they couldn't be more wrong to say that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish. To begin with, what is generally referred to as Spanish is actually the Castellano language that has been for many years politcally forced to people all over Spain. I wrote more about that in Portuguese elsewhere on this thread. 

So, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to say that Portuguese is deviation from Spanish, when Castellano and Portuguese don't exactly share the same history.

Abraços!


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## btownmeggy

I'm not sure you read my whole thread, having perhaps already made up your mind on the subject.

What I'm arguing is that Portuguese and Castilian DID share the same history until the early middle ages.  Then they deviated.


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## edupa

btownmeggy said:


> I'm not sure you read my whole thread, having perhaps already made up your mind on the subject.
> 
> What I'm arguing is that Portuguese and Castilian DID share the same history until the early middle ages. Then they deviated.


 

I think you should read your own thread again. Not once did you meantion "Castilian". Even so, it wouldn't make any sense at all.

By your own definition of deviation, we could say then that Portuguese is a devitaion from Proto-Indo European... Which of course you wouldn't agree on (or would you??)

Abraços


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## Ricardo Tavares

btownmeggy said:


> I've read that Portuguese and Spanish have an asymmetrical mutual intelligibility, that is, that Portuguese speakers generally can understand Spanish better than Spanish speakers can understand Portuguese.  This makes sense considering that Portuguese is a deviation of Spanish (via Galician).  Many Portuguese words look and sound like Spanish words, just missing a letter or two.
> 
> However, I think many people have an overestimation of the mutual intelligibility of Portuguese and Spanish.  I've had many Spanish speakers tell me they understand Portuguese completely, but when I've spoken it to them, they couldn't understand very much at all.


I wrote my opinion in another thread, but I'll write it again. Portuguese tongue has like 15 differents sounds of vowels, while Spanish has only 5. This is the main reason they have difficulties to understand us portuguese speakers, i.e., they don't have their ears used to these sutil differences of sounds (a, á, â, ã, à), only to mention some ...


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## Outsider

We are going off topic, and I don't want to derail this thread, which started out so well. Let's continue here, please.


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