# FR: a bad pen with which to write



## Alexandre8

In english it is deemed poor grammar to end a sentance with a preposition. 

So a sentance "It's a bad pen to write with"

is constituted

"It's a bad pen with which to write"

Am I write in thinking that in French we can do the same thing 

"C'est un mauvais stylo d'écrire avec" 

Thank you

Or 

"C'est un mauvais stylo avec lequel d'écrire"?


----------



## pbx

C’est un stylo qui est mauvais pour écrire.

But as writing is the essential function of a pen, you can say:

C’est un mauvais stylo.


----------



## JonnyDr

Alexander: In French only the 'with which' form is ever used. Both forms are acceptable in English.

Btw, 'sentance' should be 'sentence' and 'write' should be 'right'.


----------



## akaAJ

Winston Churchill parodied the pedantic urge to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition at all costs with "... that is a situation up with which I shall not put".


----------



## Alexandre8

JonnyDr said:


> Alexander: In French only the 'with which' form is ever used. Both forms are acceptable in English.
> 
> Btw, 'sentance' should be 'sentence' and 'write' should be 'right'.


 

D'accord mais en réponse à ta correction. Write = écrire et Right = La droite, le bien, le juste. Mais oui, j'avoue que j'ai mal épellé "setence".

As for Winston, I admit he is an extremely funny and witty character. I envy my step great-grand father who had the pleasure of being one of his closest friends throughout his time in the shipping industry.


----------



## akaAJ

Good to meet you, Alexandre8, but please do a bit of proofreading before hitting the post button.  "Setence", "grander" in great grandfather (don't know at which point in the line the "step" comes in).  And there are places where you can end sentences with a preposition in French, at least in speech, e. g., "Il faut faire avec."


----------



## Alexandre8

The important thing is that I get my French right aha  
Yes I don't check carefully what I write in English, perhaps I will take more care. 

Thanks for bringing that to my attention since I am, funnily enough rather a perfectionist and language elitist. I never write texts in txt form. 

p.s pbx very funny philosophy with the whole function of the pen thing.


----------



## calembourde

There is nothing grammatically wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition in English, it's a style issue at most. You can find plenty of websites debunking this myth. Sometimes ending a sentence with a preposition is essential, and other times it just makes sentences much less awkward.


----------



## super1Fi

pbx said:


> C’est un stylo qui est mauvais pour écrire.
> 
> But as writing is the essential function of a pen, you can say:
> 
> C’est un mauvais stylo.


    chouette!!


----------



## Alexandre8

calembourde said:


> There is nothing grammatically wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition in English, it's a style issue at most. You can find plenty of websites debunking this myth. Sometimes ending a sentence with a preposition is essential, and other times it just makes sentences much less awkward.


 
Of course in colloquial english it is far more practised to end the sentences with prepositions, I was simply asserting that queen's english, if I may call it that, tries to avoid doing so where a perfectly correct equivilent can be found by not sticking it at the end. 

Obviously compound verbs that end in a preposition cannot be stuck in the middle, like Winston Churchill so wittingly put, but in most other cases this is better english certainly when writing. Nonetheless this wasn't actually the purpose of my post, it was to find french equivilents to the phrases above, but I will be happy to express my opinion on any further issues concering prepositional placement that follow.


----------



## Tim~!

ArrogantJew said:


> Winston Churchill parodied the pedantic urge to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition at all costs with "... that is a situation up with which I shall not put".



He also got it wrong, since the _up_ in his example isn't a preposition, but a particle of the phrasal verb _to put up_, which is followed by the preposition _with_.

Even the world's greatest pedant would not wish to follow Churchill's lead.  "This is the kind of language with which I shall not put up", certainly, but his comment sounds ridiculous because that's exactly what it is, as any pedant would agree 



> And there are places where you can end sentences with a preposition in French, at least in speech, e. g., "Il faut faire avec."


Not exactly.  _Avec_ there is actually an adverb, it's just that it looks exactly the same as the preposition.

You cannot end a sentence in French with a preposition.  In the case of _avec, sans, pour_ and a few others you'll these words appearing (correctly) at the end of sentences where any disjunctive to which they would refer is not a person.

There are a few prepositions which have identical adverbial forms and look to all the world as though they're prepositions at the end, because they can't be followed by disjunctive pronouns if the thing to which they refer is not a person:
_
J'ai voté pour lui (= le président)

J'ai voté pour (= la constitution)

Je ne peux pas vivre sans elle (= ma femme)

Je ne peux pas vivre sans (= l'argent, la nourriture)_

In the case of most prepositions, though, there is a separate adverbial form, so you wouldn't find the preposition itself at the end:

_J'ai sauté sur la table -> J'ai sauté dessus_, not _J'ai sauté sur_.

So, the rule is that one cannot end sentences with prepositions in French, but there are occasions when one may _appear _to, depending on whether a) a disjunctive pronoun can be used, and b) whether the preposition has an adverbial form.  If these two conditions don't hold, you'll see what looks to be the preposition at the end ... though it's not really one


----------



## akaAJ

Fair cop, Tim~!. Put on the bracelets.


----------



## akaAJ

Well, Tim~!, I've had second thoughts.  It comes down to descriptive vs. prescriptive grammar (organic language growth vs. after-the-fact rules).  It is perfectly true that my Larousse has an entry for "avec, _adv._", and, as you say, not all prepositions have evolved into acceptable usage as (effective) adverbs.  On the question of "put", "up", and "with", I have to disagree.  One puts [pro]nouns (books on the table, me in my place), one puts up nouns (constructs buildings, preserves fruit, hazards bets), and one _puts up with_ nouns.  "to put up with" has a unique meaning, to which "with" is an integral part, at least as much as  "to put up" requires "up".


----------



## Tim~!

Good explanation about "to put up with".  I agree, and hadn't registered that it is a (presumably) double-phrasal verb


----------

