# we were doing wrong until the accident



## Alxmrphi

Salve, ho una domanda <that?> vorrei tradurre in italiano per favore.

"*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"

faccio..

Capivo <that?> avemmo <doing?> sbagliato.

*Capivo* *->* Imperfetto?
*avemmo* *->* passa remoto? (ceased continuous at the time, action)

I am unsure how to use "doing" here..

*essere grato per aiutare!. *


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## alahay

ho capito che qualcosa non andava bene fino a quando un incidente e' capitato, perche?.


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> "*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"



What does that mean in English? I feel like words are missing.


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## ratto

Ho capito che facevamo sbagliato finche l'incedent,perche?
Madrelingue dove siete?Per piacere corregemi


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## Willi

ratto said:
			
		

> Ho capito che facevamo sbagliato finche l'incedent,perche?
> Madrelingua dove siete?Per piacere correggetemi


 

Ho capito che stavamo sbagliando fino all'incidente /finché è capitato l'incidente(?), perché?


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## ratto

Grazie Willi,
Stavo pensando usare il gerund,purtroppo ho sbagliato scelto.


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## Alxmrphi

but its a continuous past action, why is not in the imperfect tense, and please please, straight translations dont really help, its the explaination behind what i did wrong and how it was corrected, that is needed most, i dont learn with just a straight translations, it just brings more questions..

i really dont see (that well) an answer here, im sorry, i greatly greatly appriciate any help i can get here and i do think you for answering, but what i _need_ is an *explaination of the changes*.

Because now i have about 5 different sentances in Italian which i dont really understand, i dont know what i did wrong or anything! - i hope you understand.

ty.


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## Willi

ratto said:
			
		

> Grazie Willi,
> Stavo pensando usare il gerund,purtroppo ho sbagliato scelto.


 
Non ti preoccupare, non era una frase facilissima da tradurre


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## Willi

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> but its a continuous past action, why is not in the imperfect tense, and please please, straight translations dont really help, its the explaination behind what i did wrong and how it was corrected, that is needed most, i dont learn with just a straight translations, it just brings more questions..
> 
> i really dont see (that well) an answer here, im sorry, i greatly greatly appriciate any help i can get here and i do think you for answering, but what i _need_ is an *explaination of the changes*.
> 
> Because now i have about 5 different sentances in Italian which i dont really understand, i dont know what i did wrong or anything! - i hope you understand.
> 
> ty.


I'm sorry, Alex. Actually the sentence may have more than just one translation. Is the action ceased in the original sentence? If so, then you should use passato prossimo or remoto. If you explain the sentence exactly, the we can answer.


*we were doing wrong *can't be translated with passato remoto, because it expresses a ceased action, not a ceased continous as you specified.

The only doubt is about capii/ capivo/ ho capito, you can use any of these tenses, it depends, as I said, if the action of understanding is ceased or not


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## alahay

ratto said:
			
		

> Grazie Willi,
> Stavo pensando di usare il gerund,purtroppo ho sbagliato scelta.



correggete anche me, grazie!


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## Willi

alahay said:
			
		

> ho capito che qualcosa non andava bene fino a quando un incidente è capitato, perché?.


 
grammaticalmente è corretta, però io direi "...fino a quando è capitato un incidente". Non è fedele all'originale nel significato, perché significa "I understood that there was something wrong..."

BTW, non mi pare che tu abbia bisogno di grandi correzioni, scrivi in ottimo italiano!


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## Alxmrphi

thanx Willi.. i can see it better now..

here is a bit of context i will make up..
"*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"
i can see this as someone explaining to someone else who has just asked him a question, something like "*wow, thats mad, but why did you do all that and what made you change your mind?*"

and the accident (say they were doing dangerous things) made them realise it was really wrong what they were doing, and then wonders why this person asked him that question..

The reason i invented this sentance was to create an example of when to use the_ imperfect _tense, and every answer is using the simple past, "ho capito" etc, so im thrown off a bit by that.

What i did gather was i used passato remoto (we were doing wrong), and it is a continuous rather than a non-continuous action, but i never read anywhere i couldnt do this, i thought it expressed ceased actions, and this is.. whether it was "for a while in the past" and ended, or "once in the past" and ended.

so passato remoto cannot translate actions in the past like "we were walking, we were running, she was writing" ? - thats what i gathered now, ty.

What tense do i use to translate "we were doing wrong" ? and what is the translation so it is clear .



> The only doubt is about capii/ capivo/ ho capito, you can use any of these tenses, it depends, as I said,* if the action of understanding is ceased or not*



it is ceased if "we were doing wrong until the accident" expresses a continuous "_at the time_" - used to do a lot of these 'dangerous' things, and until the accident implies an end, so it becomes a ceased action.

Can someone clear this up please?

Thanx a million.


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> thanx Willi.. i can see it better now..
> 
> here is a bit of context i will make up..
> "*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"
> i can see this as someone explaining to someone else who has just asked him a question, something like "*wow, thats mad, but why did you do all that and what made you change your mind?*"
> 
> and the accident (say they were doing dangerous things) made them realise it was really wrong what they were doing, and then wonders why this person asked him that question..
> 
> The reason i invented this sentance was to create an example of when to use the_ imperfect _tense, and every answer is using the simple past, "ho capito" etc, so im thrown off a bit by that.
> 
> What i did gather was i used passato remoto (we were doing wrong), and it is a continuous rather than a non-continuous action, but i never read anywhere i couldnt do this, i thought it expressed ceased actions, and this is.. whether it was "for a while in the past" and ended, or "once in the past" and ended.
> 
> so passato remoto cannot translate actions in the past like "we were walking, we were running, she was writing" ? - thats what i gathered now, ty.
> 
> What tense do i use to translate "we were doing wrong" ? and what is the translation so it is clear .
> 
> 
> 
> it is ceased if "we were doing wrong until the accident" expresses a continuous "_at the time_" - used to do a lot of these 'dangerous' things, and until the accident implies an end, so it becomes a ceased action.
> 
> Can someone clear this up please?
> 
> Thanx a million.


If this is one of those sentences you like to make up just to understand a tense, it is so esoterically contrived as to be confounding even to native English speakers (as I alluded to fairly directly in an earlier post). The afterthought, "why?" is a complicated enough about-face, but the part before it is equally convoluted and uncommon in its construction. Translating this is like a wild goose chase into your inner thoughts - maybe you could re-think the example?


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## Alxmrphi

> The afterthought, "why?" is a complicated enough about-face,



The reason 'why' is there, even though i forgot to add it onto the end of the sentance was purly because i wanted to put the topic in Italian, and instead of looking up sentance, i knew 'question = domanda' , so i tagged that on the end, no big deal (at least i dont think so)..


It isnt esoterically derived either, i heard it on a program, well "i understood we were doing wrong"... i added "until..<blah>" to show it was a ceased action..

is 

"i understood that we were wrong" = Capivo che avemmo sbagliato?

And now im not even sure if the imperfect would be used, uhh my head is going crazy.


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## lsp

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> The reason 'why' is there, even though i forgot to add it onto the end of the sentance was purly because i wanted to put the topic in Italian, and instead of looking up sentance, i knew 'question = domanda' , so i tagged that on the end, no big deal (at least i dont think so)..
> 
> 
> It isnt esoterically derived either, i heard it on a program, well "i understood we were doing wrong"... i added "until..<blah>" to show it was a ceased action..
> 
> is
> 
> "i understood that we were wrong" = Capivo che avemmo sbagliato?
> 
> And now im not even sure if the imperfect would be used, uhh my head is going crazy.


Hearing it on a program doesn't mean it works well as an example outside its context to explain your grammatical quandaries in a language forum. Try another example.


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## ElaineG

> here is a bit of context i will make up..
> "*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"
> i can see this as someone explaining to someone else who has just asked him a question, something like "*wow, thats mad, but why did you do all that and what made you change your mind?*"
> 
> and the accident (say they were doing dangerous things) made them realise it was really wrong what they were doing, and then wonders why this person asked him that question..


 
Going by the text in red, isn't the sentence you're looking for:  "I didn't realize we were doing anything wrong until the accident happened."?

As LSP astutely points out, this seems like a confusing way to do business.  If you are trying to understand the imperfect in Italian, just try writing some sentences using the imperfect without searching for an esoteric and improbable English original.


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## DAH

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> "*i understood that we were doing wrong until the accident, why?*"
> faccio..
> Capivo <that?> avemmo <doing?> sbagliato.
> *Capivo* *->* Imperfetto?
> *avemmo* *->* passa remoto? (ceased continuous at the time, action)


Ho capito (passato prossimo) che (that) staviamo facendo (were doing =past progressive) sbaligare (wrong = infinitive noun) fino a l'incidente, perche'?


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## Alxmrphi

It wasnt, well at least i didnt think it was, i just adapted what i heard, i think it sounds elegant, so i think thats why i was attracted to it, im doing a big re-read of it..

What is a habitual action, i havent been able to find a satisfying answer to this and it keeps cropping up in the description of the imperfect tense.

but right now i will give a few more a go.

ill try and do "i used to ride my bicycle until i broke my leg" - this seems like the perfect sentance to use as an example for this tense. (am i right?)
I will describe it here how i work it out, so its easier to see and pinpoint the moment where i went wrong.

1) "i used to ride" - so i need the verb to ride, which is.. "*andare in*" aparently, which seems weird "*to go in*", oh well..

2) my bike = la mia bicicletta.. so, so far i have *vado in la mia bicicletta*.

3) wordreference says "until" is 'fino', which again doesnt seem right but i will go with it.
Now, i am not sure what to do with "to break" (spezzare), do i put it in the same impefect form or the simple past, ill do simple past, and now i dont know what aux verb to use, ill take a stab at avere.
so by that, i work out "i broke" to be *ho spezzo*.

4) and "my leg" is.. *la mia gamba*.

"*I used to ride my bike until i broke my leg*"
[........]
"*vado in la mia bicicletta fino ho spezzo la mia gamba*"

********

Is this correct, if not, at what point did i go wrong?


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## Alxmrphi

DAH said:
			
		

> Ho capito (passato prossimo) che (that) staviamo facendo (were doing =past progressive) sbaligare (wrong = infinitive noun) fino a l'incidente, perche'?


 
^^ Thanx for that, that is very helpful, the way it is answered.


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## Willi

ok this is part of a post i sent to alex about the use of imperfetto
Hope it helps  

*Imperfetto: *è un po' più complicato. In alcuni casi si può usare indifferentemente l'imperfetto o il passato prossimo, conta l'intenzione di chi parla: se per esempio vuoi semplicemente comunicare ciò che è successo puoi usare il _passato prossimo, _se invece vuoi dare carattere descrittivo alla narrazione, ad es. se stai scrivendo un racconto, un romanzo etc., userai l'imperfetto.
Si _deve_ usare l'imperfetto:
_ dopo _mentre_
es. mentre dormivo ha squillato il telefono
_ con _stare + gerundio_
es. stavo dormendo quando ha squillato il telefono
_ con _stare + infinito_
es. stavo per chiamarti quando sei arrivato
_ azione interrotta da un'altra azione al passato prossimo
es. mentre facevo la doccia è andata via l'acqua
facevo la doccia quando è andata via l'acqua
_ descrizioni in generale
es. Ieri pioveva e faceva freddo
_ abitudini
es. da bambino giocavo sempre a nascondino
_ azioni contemporanee indefinite
es. mentre guidavo ascoltavo la radio
_motivazioni a un fatto
es. sono andato a letto presto perché ero stanco
_ possibilità, obblighi, volontà, desideri realizzati o non realizzati
es. ieri volevo andare a letto presto - non si capisce se l'ho fatto o no. Se invece dico Ieri sono voluto andare a letto presto indico chiaramente che sono andato a letto presto.

Si può usare l'imperfetto anche nel presente in sostituzione del condizionale, per fare una richiesta gentile
es. volevo due etti di prosciutto, per favore

P.S. di solito i bambini, quando giocano a inventarsi delle storie, usano sempre l'imperfetto, perché è un tempo eminentemente narrativo
es. Facciamo che io ero il re e tu la regina.


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## ElaineG

DAH said:
			
		

> Ho capito (passato prossimo) che (that) stavamo facendo (were doing =past progressive) (can't use the infinitive sbagliare here) fino all'incidente, perche'?


 
Either "stavamo sbagliando" (as Willi already said) or maybe, "stavamo facendo qualcosa di sbagliato..." (We were doing something wrong), but Willi's version is clearer and nicer.


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## lsp

Asked...





			
				Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> ...What is a habitual action, i havent been able to find a satisfying answer to this and it keeps cropping up in the description of the imperfect tense.


Answered...


			
				Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> "i used to ride" ...my bike


Hint... habitual means regular, constantly, as a habit...


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## Willi

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> "*I used to ride my bike until i broke my leg*"
> [........]
> "*vado in la mia bicicletta fino ho spezzo la mia gamba*"
> 
> Is this correct, if not, at what point did i go wrong?


 
To use to is translated by "essere solito/i", the tense in Italian is imperfetto because it describes a habit. Imperfetto can also be used in this case, so the correct translation is:

Ero solito andare/andavo in bicicletta finché/ fino a che mi sono rotto la gamba 

*spezzo *is present tense, *spezzato* is participio passato but usually we *rompere *to say *to break a leg*
*mia *is not necessary in Italian as it is clear that I broke MY leg and not someone else's

Other questions?


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## Alxmrphi

Ohh thanx..

Whats the term for stare + gerund, i read it was called the present continuous tense, but i can see its been used here..



> Either "stavamo sbagliando" (as Willi already said) or maybe, "stavamo facendo qualcosa di sbagliato..." (We were doing something wrong), but Willi's version is clearer and nicer.


 
but this is the same thing but in the past, is it the past continuous, or is there something called a 'continuos' tense and it can be manipulated for past/present/future?


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## Alxmrphi

*vado in la mia bicicletta fino ho spezzo la mia gamba*
Ero solito andavo in bicicletta fino a che mi sono rotto la gamba 

ooh i forgot to put andare (vado) into the imperfect.

does solito go with all "i used to/she used to/we used to"
I have my book here and i can see two examples..

Di Solito, guardavo la televisione - Usually, i would watch TV.
Parlavo...................................- i used to speak

so, howcome it isnt *essere solito parlavo*?

*******
and for the bike example...

a che mi sono rotto - this is what i dont get, barring that the rest is the same where i realise i should have done something else.

ho spezzato - this is what i put instead of the above, (corrected anyway), can i say ho spezzato in this example? even though you have changed it, i dont see what the similarity between the "i broke" is.

a che mi sono rotto - to/at, what/who(m)/that, reflexive (i am, to myself), and broke leg, in the present tense you told me i shouldnt use (spezzo -> spezzato).

Is this just weird Italian sentance structure i should ignore and accept, or is there something here i should learn before i can progress?


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## Willi

> does solito go with all "i used to/she used to/we used to"
> I have my book here and i can see two examples..
> 
> Di Solito, guardavo la televisione - Usually, i would watch TV.
> Parlavo...................................- i used to speak
> 
> so, howcome it isnt *essere solito parlavo*?


 
*essere solito* needs an infinitive after it, besides you must conjugate essere, so the sentence is *ero solito parlare. *You can also use the verb *solere* if it's easier for you *solevo parlare. *What maybe puzzles you is that you confuse *solito* adverb ( di solito guardavo..) with *solito* pass participle which here is used as an adjective (lit. ero solito I was used)





> a che mi sono rotto - this is what i dont get, barring that the rest is the same where i realise i should have done something else.


 

*a che* goes with *fino *, I put an alternative: *finché - fino a che*




> ho spezzato - this is what i put instead of the above, (corrected anyway), can i say ho spezzato in this example? even though you have changed it, i dont see what the similarity between the "i broke" is


 
we use the reflexive form in this case, which is *mi sono spezzato/rotto.*
Maybe you don't see the similarity only because *I broke* is not reflexive




> a che mi sono rotto - to/at, what/who(m)/that, reflexive (i am, to myself), and broke leg, in the present tense you told me i shouldnt use (spezzo -> spezzato).


 
I'm not sure I understood what you mean here, but *mi sono rotto* is NOT present, is participio passato



> Is this just weird Italian sentance structure i should ignore and accept, or is there something here i should learn before i can progress?


 
It's not a weird structure, it has a precise corresponence to the english one

I used= ero solito
to ride= andare
my bike= in bici
until=finché
I broke= mi sono rotto
my leg= la gamba


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## Alxmrphi

I used= ero solito
to ride= andare
my bike= in bici
until=finché
I broke= mi sono rotto
my leg= la gamba

ok, well explained and nearly fully understood, but, looking at that sentance above, the only thing conjugated in the imperfect is 'ero' should this be?

second of all, is this only when "i used to" is said, if this is the case then under what circumstances do you say parlavo? aspettavo ? etc.


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## Willi

Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> ok, well explained and nearly fully understood, but, looking at that sentance above, the only thing conjugated in the imperfect is 'ero' should this be?
> 
> second of all, is this only when "i used to" is said, if this is the case then under what circumstances do you say parlavo? aspettavo ? etc.


 
Yes, it should be like this
You can say parlavo, aspettavo etc usually with an adverb, such as di solito, sempre, or with words that express habits, like,say, ogni lunedì etc. Imperfetto translates also the english form with would + verb to express habit, e.g.
When I lived in Rome I would go to the Coliseum every day
Quando vivevo a Roma andavo al Colosseo ogni giorno

Hope it's clear


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## Alxmrphi

*I used to always go there*



> You can say parlavo, aspettavo etc usually with an adverb, such as di solito, sempre,



1) "I used to" so i need to say "*Di Solito*"
2) i think i need to switch it so '*sempre*' is at the end
3) "go there" so that is, err.. hummm... *andavo* ?

-> *Di solito, andavo sempre ? *

And i cant say... -> Di solito, sono andato li. 



> Imperfetto translates also the english form with would + verb to express habit, e.g.



*I would watch the TV every sunday*

1) I think "i would watch" by that quote is guardavo.
2) la televisione ogni domenica.

*-> guardavo la televisione ogni domenica*

** 

??


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## Willi

> 1) "I used to" so i need to say "*Di Solito*"
> 2) i think i need to switch it so '*sempre*' is at the end
> 3) "go there" so that is, err.. hummm... *andavo* ?
> 
> -> *Di solito, andavo sempre ? *
> 
> And i cant say... -> Di solito, sono andato li.


 
1)In this case, as sempre already implies the idea of "I used to" you can simply say *andavo sempre* without *di solito, *but it's a matter of taste, *di solito andavo sempre* is not incorrect.
2)it depends: this is a matter of nuance and as you are just beginning maybe it's too early to worry about these things. Anyway, if you are referring to a place already mentioned, then you should use *ci* for *there, *so it would be *di solito ci andavo sempre. *Otherwise there=là, so *di solito andavo sempre là. *In the latter case you're emphasizing *there*, meaning that you used to go there and not in another place.



> *-> guardavo la televisione ogni domenica
> *


*

 perfect!*


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## Alxmrphi

Oh my god i feel so great for at least working something out here, and it is down to you, wow i got the butterflys in my stomach, yay.. and not far off the first one.

question though.. i thought "there" was "lì".. and you put "là"

is this sort of like, OH, GOT IT.. 
i know the qui/qua thing, both meaning "here" but 'qua' is used for like pointing on a map and saying something like "look here", but "qui" is more like "right were we are now"..

and they are sort of opposites, except im not entirely sure how to use it with là, but i can see there will be an easy answer.. qui/qua /lì/là.


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## Willi

> qui/qua /lì/là.


 
 exactly, if you want to be REALLY REALLY precise *lì* is a bit nearer than *là,* but I think they're quite interchangable. Anyway, no one will be shocked or puzzled if you use one instead of another


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