# 殻を得て、生きてきた



## JapanForever

Hello everyone,
Please i need help to translate this sentence, please: (its came from a video game)
我ら_兄妹_は2人で1人...永遠にわかつことのない、この傀儡の殻を得て、生きてきた
What does it mean ? Thank you


----------



## aprctr

1. A Japanese native can best translate it, but until you get accurate response, you could get this result from online machine translator like bebelfish etc:

Machine Translation Result:
"As for our siblings 2, 1 person…Eternal abruptness there is nothing, obtaining the shell of this puppet, you lived"

You might have generated this result already by yourself. If you havent, I hope this work & if it doesnt, all you can do is wait & see ...

2. Results of other threads:

誠,が何だかんだ良い兄貴
Sincerity, is what, the good older brother where you bit


----------



## JapanForever

Yes, I used babylon, and the result has been a different answer. In this sentence, I just don't understand what's "ことのない" and the verb "得て" meaning. 
Thank you a lot for your answer, by the way. ^^


----------



## JapanForever

But for the other thread, in fact, it's "誠が何だかんだ良い兄貴". I looked for, nandakanda means apparently "something or other" but there are others results like "somewhat" "after all" "in the end"...I never understood...-_-


----------



## mikun

My try,
We, brother and sisuter, are one combination indivisual.
We have lived by getting the puppet body which will never separate permanently.
Some more context will make the translation more correct.


----------



## JapanForever

thanks you, mikun


----------



## JapanForever

I know it has been a long time but I come back on this forum. I would like to know if this translation is correct:
"We are two siblings in one. In order to not be aparted, we get this puppet body and we lived."
Is it correct?


----------



## wanabee

JapanForever said:


> I know it has been a long time but I come back on this forum. I would like to know if this translation is correct:
> "We are two siblings in one. In order to not be aparted, we get this puppet body and we lived."
> Is it correct?



Hi,

I think you've captured what the line means quite well. Nothing wrong with your proposed translation!

Just to add a little, 永遠に分かつことのない describes/modifies この傀儡の殻, so strrictly, the character is saying;
"We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body, which will not forever be torn apart, and we've lived."


----------



## Flaminius

I think *JapanForever*'s understanding is okay.  There is a minor problem; "apart" is no longer used as a verb.

A greater problem, however, is in the original Japanese.  


wanabee said:


> Just to add a little, 永遠に分かつことのない describes/modifies この傀儡の殻


I am not sure just how 永遠に分かつことのない modifies この傀儡の殻.  The former is a relative clause so the latter has to have a roll in the relative clause.  Is it the subject of the transitive verb わかつ?  or is it the object?



> [T]he character is saying;
> "We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body that will not forever be torn apart and we've lived."


You changed the voice in your translation but you understand "this puppet body" as the object of "to tear", "to sever the relationship" or "to separate."  Do you think この傀儡の殻をわかつ means the same in Japanese?

I find it more semantically satisfactory to have この傀儡の殻 as the subject in a sentence like:
この傀儡の殻は二人を永遠に分つことがない。
Unfortunately, this is a forced understanding of the Japanese sentence.  [I cannot say what's wrong in the syntax but I am more comfortable if 分つ had an explicit object.]

At the end of the day, this is somewhat broken as a Japanese sentence.  Don't learn too much from this.


----------



## wanabee

It is true that the original Japanese sentence is ambiguous for those who are not familiar with the story.
However, that cannot be helped, since it’s a spoken line from a video game after all.

Just based on the unclear Japanese text, my understanding remains the same; 永遠に分かつことのない describes/modifies この傀儡の殻 . 

It could be either;
"We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body, which will not forever be torn apart, and we've lived." or,
"We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body, which will not forever tear us apart, and we've lived." 
(Forgive me for the awkward translation, it's just to convey my idea.)

It is necessary to know at least a little background of the story, including what kind of puppet body they acquired, etc.


----------



## Flaminius

wanabee said:


> However, that cannot be helped, since it’s a spoken line from a video game after all.



It's either the context helps disambiguate the sentence or it is poorly written or edited.



> Just based on the unclear Japanese text, my understanding remains the same; 永遠に分かつことのない describes/modifies この傀儡の殻 .



Of course it does.  The question is how it does.  I have said that there are two possible readings but neither is satisfactory for one reason or another.



> It is necessary to know at least a little background of the story, including what kind of puppet body they acquired, etc.


Amen!


----------



## JapanForever

Hi. So I see you've some troubles? So, for the little blackground that's from a game as I said, and protagonists managed to defeat a boss by cutting his head off. They thought the boss was died and they noticed that he was still alive. The boss suffered from enormous and mortal injures in the head  and he began to call his sister with a voice of pain and they realized that they were actually two people in one and the sister was the head which has been cut off. So the boss said this sentence. 
Hope it helped you


----------



## wanabee

Flaminius said:


> It's either the context helps disambiguate the sentence or it is poorly written or edited.



That is right.



> Of course it does. The question is how it does. I have said that there are two possible readings but neither is satisfactory for one reason or another.



Point taken.


----------



## wanabee

JapanForever said:


> Hi. So I see you've some troubles? So, for the little blackground that's from a game as I said, and protagonists managed to defeat a boss by cutting his head off. They thought the boss was died and they noticed that he was still alive. The boss suffered from enormous and mortal injures in the head  and he began to call his sister with a voice of pain and they realized that they were actually two people in one and the sister was the head which has been cut off. So the boss said this sentence.
> Hope it helped you



That's too bad for the _boss!_ 

By the way, all things considered, my conclusion is unchanged from post #1 and #10, 
that is;
1) you've captured the idea of the Japanese sentence quite well. I find nothing wrong with your proposed translation.
2) But more precisely, I'd say that the _boss _is saying either;
"We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body, which will not forever be torn apart, and we've lived." or,
"We are two siblings in one. We got this puppet body, which will not forever tear us apart, and we've lived."


----------



## JapanForever

Thanks wanabee. If I can still help you for context there is this sentence after  もはや_使命_など関係ない……。貴様らは、この私が地獄へと送る...


----------



## wanabee

JapanForever said:


> Thanks wanabee. If I can still help you for context there is this sentence after  もはや_使命_など関係ない……。貴様らは、この私が地獄へと送る...



Hi,

もはや_使命_など関係ない……。貴様らは、この私が地獄へと送る...
I don't care about the Mission any more... I'm just gonna send you to Hell...

Sorry, I don't think this helps...
I think maybe the problem, if any, lies in the Japanese sentence itself, but this sort of ambiguity (a very subtle one) is quite natural in spoken Japanese...


----------



## Flaminius

I beg to differ.  The ambiguity is neither subtle nor is it to be tolerated.

First, comparing この傀儡の殻を永遠にわかつことがない and この傀儡の殻は二人を永遠に分つことがない, we notice that わかつ is used in two different senses in the two.  The former, having この傀儡の殻 as the object, uses わかつ in sense of sharing, imparting or something like that ("Tear the body apart", your English translation, *wanabee*, can mean "break the body into pieces" but this reading is impossible for the Japanese original).  This reading is hard to endorse, in view of what the brother and the sister have been doing. They shared the body!  The latter, having この傀儡の殻 as the subject, uses わかつ as "sever the relationship."  This is a more satisfactory understanding but I have mentioned above that this is syntactically a more difficult reading.

Second, you may encounter this type of sentences in live conversations and you still may be able to disambiguate them by contextual information.  The topic of this thread is different.  We are dealing with an artificial material where less context is available than in face-to-face communication.  The authors should have take enough time editing out ambiguities.


----------



## JapanForever

....That's a bit hard to me^^


----------

