# FR: Conjugation after relative pronouns



## nath1

Hi , in a previuos post I was corrected for a slight grammer point. Since then I have tried to find it in my grammer book to get it straight in my head . But as usaul I cannot find it, so I thought I would ask. In the sentence following is the verb " aller" in a singular form because it relates back to "le nombre" ?......

le nombre de gens qui va au théàtre par an......

The reason I ask this is because I was tempted to  conjugate "aller " as "vont" instead of "va" in the sentence above because of the "gens". However, after looking at the sentence does "gens" act as an adjective even thought it is a noun? ie....

le nombre (noun) de gens(adjective)

Hope that makes sense  nath


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## jetman

The object of the preposition is not the subject.  The subject must agree with the verb.

The *king *of spades *was *already played.
The *road *through the mountains *is *very treacherous.

You should be able to completely remove the prepositional phrase to see the agreement more easily.  It works the same way in French:

Le *nombre *(de gens) qui *va *au théâtre....


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## Moon Palace

You are right, Jetman, but to make things a bit more confusing, I will add that with the word 'number' it can be tricky

Le nombre de gens qui vont au théâtre est en augmentation. 
What increases is the number whereas the ones who go to the theater are the people... 
Have fun with French!


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## Argyll

Hi, you were tempted,

my Grevisse says : Yield to temptation!

'le nombre de gens qui vont...' (Le bon usage, 12th edition, §422, bottom of page 693).


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## jetman

Apologies, nath1, if I confused you.  This is evidently more involved.  This link might help: http://wwwnew.towson.edu/ows/sub-verb.htm

Thanks, Argyll and Moon Palace for the precision!


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
"gens" is complement of the word "nombre" an the subjetc of "aller" is "le nombre" -> singular. Then , grammatically, it's "qui va au théâtre".
Anyway, I shouldn't tell you (and you shouldn't do so), but I must say that you can find in some recent documents that it's tolerated, as "nombre" means "many" (and I think by analogy with the adjective-like locution "*nombre de*" which must be built with plural), to use the plural form of the verb. So you can find "le nombre de gens qui vont ..." in some french texts.
Hope it helps!


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## Moon Palace

Sorry, Carnesecchi but I must say I disagree because in the sentence I used 'le nombre de gens qui vont au théâtre est en augmentation', it wouldn't make sense if we said 'le nombre de gens qui va au théâtre'. 
Here is a page that can provide the rule

http://grammaire.reverso.net/index_alpha/Fiches/Fiche210.htm


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## nath1

Hi all , thanks for the replys, but still a little confused as to what the rule is . Do I have to pluralise or keep it singular. many thanks


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## Argyll

In this instance, pluralise it. It is a difficult point of French grammar, and you can see that there is disagreement among native speakers of French. In conversation, and even fairly informal written French, it would not matter all that much.

If you are seriously studying French as an advanced student, I would advise you to get a copy of 'Le bon usage', by Grevisse (Ed. Duculot). It is a bit daunting, but you can usually find answers to questions like that in this book.


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## CARNESECCHI

Moon Palace said:


> Sorry, Carnesecchi but I must say I disagree because in the sentence I used 'le nombre de gens qui vont au théâtre est en augmentation', it wouldn't make sense if we said 'le nombre de gens qui va au théâtre'.
> Here is a page that can provide the rule
> 
> http://grammaire.reverso.net/index_alpha/Fiches/Fiche210.htm


 
En ce cas, je vous suggère de méditer longuement sur ceci :
"Le nombre des gens qui vont au théâtre est en augmentation"
"Le nombre de gens qui va au théâtre est en augmentation"


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## Moon Palace

I don't mean to appear stubborn, and I take your examples into account, but here are the ones I found in my Grévisse grammar: 

Une foule de gens diront qu'il n'en est rien (Maupassant). 
Un troupeau de cerfs nous croisent (A Camus)

Yet depending on the way one considers the crowd, we may have a singular. Which is what I intended to show in the first place, namely the idea that it depends on the locutor's stance (when dealing with a figure, to me it will be a singular, but not to you obviously) and so :
Une foule de malades accourait (Maupassant again)
La foule des vivants rit et suit sa folie (Hugo)

There is not one rule against another one, it all depends on how one views the subject. Hope it suits you better.


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## jetman

From CARNESECCHI's link:



> Le verbe se met au pluriel quand le sujet est introduit par plus d’un. Il se met au singulier quand le sujet est introduit par moins de deux.
> 
> Plus d’un a obtenu gain de cause.
> Moins de deux mois suffiront pour le projet.



Is this a typo?  Am I reading this right?

From the English perspective:



> *number*
> _Usage: As a collective noun, number may take either a singular or a plural verb.  It takes a singular verb when it is preceded by the definite article *the*:_
> The number of skilled workers is small._
> 
> It takes a plural verb when preceded by the indefinite article *a*:_
> A number of the workers are unskilled.



Source: The American Heritage Dictionary


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## tilt

There's no point saying _Le nombre de gens qui va au théâtre_. It's wrong, that's all.
The subject of _aller _here is _qui_, pronoun relative to _les gens_, which is plural, and not to _Le nombre de gens_, because it is not the number which is going to theatre! Then, the verb agreement is plural. Read the sentence like this: _le nombre de (gens qui vont au théâtre) est en augmentation_. And no matter if you says _nombre *de *gens _or _nombre *des *gens_, it's the same.

In _Une foule de gens diront qu'il n'en est rien_, it is obvious that it's not the crowd but the people who speak. On the contrary, _Une foule de gens envahit la rue_ or _Une foule de gens envahirent la rue_ are both correct, with a slightly different meaning, according to who overruns the street (the crowd, or the people).


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## CARNESECCHI

jetman said:


> Quote:
> Le verbe se met au pluriel quand le sujet est introduit par plus d’un. Il se met au singulier quand le sujet est introduit par moins de deux.
> 
> Plus d’un a obtenu gain de cause.
> Moins de deux mois suffiront pour le projet.
> Is this a typo? Am I reading this right?


Hrm, the link is not from me...
But the examples are correct, then it must be a typo (interesting to find typos there, isn't it?) and you should read "Le verbe se met au singulier quand le sujet est introduit par plus d’un. Il se met au pluriel quand le sujet est introduit par moins de deux"

And, just for the sake of discussion, I would agree with both singular and plural after "le nombre de" -> "le nombre (_de gens_) qui va ..." or "(le nombre de (_gens qui vont _...), but I would less agree with "une foule de gens _envahirent_ ..." because if each "gens" can go the somewhere (leading to plural) , only a crowd can invade (implying singular).
Hope it helps!


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## tilt

CARNESECCHI said:


> if each "gens" can go the somewhere (leading to plural) , only a crowd can invade (implying singular).


Puisque _Les gens envahirent la rue_ est correct, je ne vois pas de problème à dire _Une foule de gens envahirent la rue !_


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## CARNESECCHI

tilt said:


> Puisque _Les gens envahirent la rue_ est correct, je ne vois pas de problème à dire _Une foule de gens envahirent la rue !_


Il est dit : "Lorsque le verbe a pour sujet un nom collectifsingulier (_foule, multitude, tas, _etc.) accompagné de son complément, le verbe se met *au singulier ou au pluriel selon le sens*." 
Je n'ai pas dit que je n'étais pas d'accord, j'ai essayé d'affiner mon expression en disant que j'étais moins d'accord car, dans mon esprit c'est une caractéristique de la foule, une foule forme un tout dont le comportement global est différent de ce que serait la somme des comportement de chaque individu pris un à un (il y a de la synergie dans le mot foule), mais je peux comprendre qu'on puisse considérer une foule comme une somme d'individus. Pour essayer d'être plus clair, "les gens envahirent la rue" me semble plutôt une somme d'actions individuelles, alors que "une foule de gens envahit la rue" me semble plutôt un mouvement de groupe, l'un est plus brouillon, moins structuré, que l'autre. Et donc, "une foule de gens _envahirent_ la rue" me semble plutôt mettre l'accent sur la somme d'individualités que sur la globalité d'une foule.


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## jetman

CARNESECCHI said:


> Hrm, the link is not from me...



Oops!  My bad.  The link was Moon Palace's.


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## Moon Palace

Yes, the link was from me, and I am not going to escape that responsibility. But if indeed there was a mistake (a reversal) in the end, the beginning just below leaves little doubt as to what we have been talking about. Of course, some things are easier to notice than others . It all depends on one's viewpoint. I am not saying either a singular or a plural is wrong, I am only trying to defend the idea that it all depends on the viewpoint one has on the situation described. Now as I don't want to start another Clochemerle, I will only let everybody the opportunity to reflect on this rule and make up his or her own mind. 

Best wishes 



Lorsque le verbe a pour sujet un nom collectif singulier (_foule, multitude, tas, _etc.) accompagné de son complément, le verbe se met *au singulier ou au pluriel selon le sens*.
*La multitude des couleurs donnait un air de fête à l’assemblée. (C’est la multitude qui donne un air de fête).*
*Une foule de questions lui venaient à l’esprit. (Ce sont les questions qui viennent à l’esprit).
*Souvent on a le choix.
_Une multitude d’insectes *ont *envahi la   prairie _(ou *a *_envahi_).
   L’accord se fera toujours avec le complément si le nom collectif est   pris au sens figuré ou s’il est employé sans déterminant.
_Un tas d’idées intéressantes *ont *surgi lors   de la réunion. _(_tas _est pris au sens figuré, le verbe s’accorde donc avec le   complément pluriel _idées_).
_Nombre de questions *ont trouvé *réponse au cours de la réunion.   (nombre _n’est suivi d’aucun déterminant, le verbe s’accorde donc avec le   complément pluriel_ questions)._


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