# FR: definite article or possessive adjective with body parts - reflexive verbs



## troublems03

yannalan said:


> Elle plie *la* jambe. Il ouvre *les* yeux.


So, just to further clarify: it does not seem that body parts are referred to in the possessive? Could you possibly give an example of a suitably used possessive?

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one. See also the related thread FR: avoir les/des cheveux, yeux ; le/un nez, visage + adjectif - article défini / indéfini.


----------



## Lil_Dave

You generally use the possessive only if there are no or more than one persons refered in the sentence :
"Son bras est cassé" but "Elle a le bras cassé"
"Elle grimpa sur ses genoux" (not her own knees) but "Elle se blessa aux genoux"


----------



## Oluc (Yvon)

[…] English is more possessive than French "He hurt his leg" as opposed to "Il s'est blessé la jambe" […]


----------



## Reilyn

I've always been confused about this. 

When you say "shake their heads", would you say "secouent leurs têtes", or "secouent les têtes"? "Les têtes" sounds funny, for some reason.


Also, are all body parts referred to as "le/la/les", as opposed to "mon/ma/mes"? Like you would say "laver les cheveux", but are there any cases when you would say mes?

Also, would "visages" use "leurs" or "les"?  Would, for example, "leurs visages sont indiscernables, mais il est évident que leurs expressions soient remplies de dérision" be correct?


----------



## RuK

You'd say "je vais me laver les cheveux". It does seem odd at first. Je me suis cassé le bras. Je me suis fait mal aux genoux. 

Ils se secouent la tête, I think. Leurs visages sont flous.


----------



## Gutenberg

Ils secouent (hochent) la tête.
Se laver les cheveux.

... leurs visages sont indiscernables...


----------



## abhunter

When the subject(s) is/are doing something to or with their own body, it will always be le/la/les.
Ils se tiennent le main.
Je me brosse les dents.​In other cases, it takes the possessive.

La manche de cette chemise est plus longue que mon bras.
​


----------



## robzuck

on this subject - a 10 year old francophone told me one could say:
1) je me brosse les dents
or:
2) je brosse mes dents.

an adult told me that this was nonesense.
do children sometimes speak this way?
is it a comon error?
is it incomprehensible?
thanks.


----------



## Maître Capello

It is not incomprehensible and I would expect some children actually say it. But the correct sentence is the first one.


----------



## spruceroot

I am a bit confused concering *laver* and *se laver. *This is what I've understood:
se laver = to wash oneself
ex.
I wash myself = Je me lave
They wash themselves = Ils se lavent

Now, if I want to say that "I wash my hands", I know that you can say *"Je me lave les mains"*. But, could I also say* "Je lave mes mains"*?
And if I wash _his_ hands, would it be *"Je lave ses mains"* or *"Je se lave les mains"*?

Merci


----------



## SwissPete

> But, could I also say* "Je lave mes mains"*?


No, sorry, it does not work!

As for wahing somebody else's hands, it's *Je lui lave les mains*.


----------



## spruceroot

Okay. So it's the only correct way to say that? Cause I'm thinking "Je lave" is "I wash". If I said "I wash his car", then it would be "Je lave sa voiture". So why is it incorrect to say "Je lave ses mains"? I'm still washing something he owns in a way. His house, his car, his hands...


----------



## paysage

It is not incorrect but it sounds strange to a native. We say "je lui lave les mains".


----------



## spruceroot

I see. Thank you! But where do you draw the line? Is it only when talking about body parts?


----------



## Ctrad

Yes, we don't use possessive to talk about body parts in French.


----------



## Ala888

quick question:
would it be
il y a quelque chose dans sa bouche
il y a quelque chose dans le bouche de lui


----------



## Nimls

It would be "il y a quelque chose dans sa bouche".
"il y a quelque chose dans le bouche de lui" is redundaunt ^^


----------



## Maître Capello

Or, more idiomatically: _Il a quelque chose dans *la* bouche_.

See also the following threads:
FR: avec des/les/ses yeux verts
FR: se couvrir le visage / couvrir son visage
Elle a lavé ses cheveux / Elle lui a lavé les cheveux / Elle s'est lavé les cheveux - forum Français Seulement
FR: se laver - meaning of reflexive
FR: I brush my teeth
FR: la jambe / ma jambe
FR: wash your hands


----------



## yannalan

Je lave mes dents est un bretonnisme, très largement employé par ici par les non-bretonnants.


----------



## EpicBacon

Hey, so, apparently, one is not allowed to use possessive pronouns when discussing body parts. However, I sometimes see this being applied and other times, I don't. Specifically, I'm referring to the Disney song, "Ce Reve Bleu".

So, if someone could explain this, that would be fantastic.


----------



## Yendred

I can't see the link between the use of possessive pronouns and "Ce rêve bleu", at least in the title. There are neither possessive pronoun, nor body part.
Do you mean some of the song lyrics? Can you give an example?


----------



## Maître Capello

I found the lyrics:


> N'as-tu jamais laissé parler *ton* coeur ?
> 
> Je vais ouvrir *tes* yeux
> Aux délices et aux merveilles
> De ce voyage en plein ciel
> Au pays du rêve bleu.
> […]
> Ne ferme pas *les* yeux !



We use the definite article when an action is performed on the body part.

_*J'*ouvre *les* yeux_.
_Je *t'*ouvre *les* yeux_.
_*Tu* fermes *les* yeux.
Ferme *les* yeux._ (2nd person singular imperative → _tu_ is implied)
_Tu *me* fends *le* cœur._

This is not the case in the 1st quoted sentence, so we don't use the definite article: _laisser parler *son* cœur._

Now, the 2nd quoted phrase is a bit different because _ouvrir les yeux_ is used in a figurative sense with a complement introduced by the preposition _à_ (contracted to _aux_): _ouvrir les yeux *aux* délices et *aux* merveilles_…
Without any complement, we would definitely say, _Je vais *t'*ouvrir *les* yeux._ Besides, the original phrase could also read, _Je vais *t'*ouvrir *les* yeux aux délices_… In that specific example, both wordings are possible.


----------



## EpicBacon

Let's see if I got this! If I were to say.. uhm., "Eat your eyes"

"Mange les yeux!" 

If I were to say, "I eat my eyes" I would say, "Je me mange les yeux" Literally, "I eat myself, eyes." Am I correct?


----------



## Maître Capello

I'm afraid not.  Because those actions are *atypical* to say the least , we wouldn't use the definite article. In your first example, we wouldn't know whose or which eyes we should eat: our own, someone else's, those of the fish in our plate?

_Mange *les* yeux_ = Eat the eyes (of the animal or person we just talked about, or which are clear from context)
_Mange *tes* yeux_ = Eat your eyes

_Je mange *mes* yeux_ = I eat my eyes
_Je *me* mange *les* yeux_ → This is not possible because you cannot possibly eat your eyes without plucking them out first! 

It would however be possible to say, _Je *me* frotte *les* yeux_ or _Je *me* ronge *les* ongles_, because it is possible to do so without removing them first.


----------



## Fred_C

Maître Capello said:


> _Mange *tes* yeux_ = Eat your eyes



J’aurais plutôt dit «mange-toi les yeux», sur l’exemple de «frotte-toi les yeux».


----------



## Maître Capello

Oui, effectivement, je n'avais pas pensé à cette solution-là… Il faut dire que me manger les yeux est évidemment quelque chose que je fais tous les jours !  Mais comme je le disais précédemment, pour pouvoir les manger, il faut d'abord les arracher, ce qui rend ce tour moins naturel pour moi. J'imagine en effet les yeux dans une assiette et la belle-mère qui dit à son beau-fils : _Mange tes yeux !_ comme une mère normale dirait : _Mange tes épinards !_

Pour reprendre des exemples plus vraisemblables, on peut remarquer que l'on dit :

_Frotte-*toi* les yeux_, et non : _Frotte les yeux_ (ce qui laisserait l'interlocuteur interloqué pour déterminer de quels yeux la personne parle)

mais :

_Ouvre les yeux_, et non : _Ouvre-*toi* les yeux_ (ce qui suggérerait que l'on demande à la personne de se percer les yeux !)

Le réflexif indique une aide extérieure (généralement les mains) nécessaire à l'action, contrairement aux mouvements propres de l'organe en question : on se frotte les yeux à l'aide des mains, mais les yeux peuvent s'ouvrir tout seuls.


----------



## EpicBacon

Maître Capello said:


> It would however be possible to say, _Je *me* frotte *les* yeux_ or _Je *me* ronge *les* ongles_, because it is possible to do so without removing them first.



Oh, wow! My brain is hurt. To me, it makes me absolutely no sense that you can say "I rub myself, eyes" but not "I eat myself, eyes". Grr! Why can't I understand?


----------



## Fred_C

In real life, no one ever eats their own eyes. It is more common to eat mutton eyes, which is not very appetizing, and your mother will say «mange tes yeux», as she would say «mange tes brocolis». Please come up with realistic examples.

Besides, «frotte-toi les yeux» means «Rub the eyes to yourself» not «rub yourself eyes», as you seem to believe.


----------



## Gijoe

Ok. With all this NO, NO, NO to je lave mes mains, I see a french kid book and french native teacher teach this  type of sentences: je lave mon visage, mes bras, etc. 

Can someone tell me what is going on? 

Thanks.


----------



## nld

On the one hand, children books use very simple structures, and reflexive pronouns are difficult for young children! My son used to say things like "J'ai cogné ma tête/mon pied", but it's really "kid language". (Now he's 20 and he says "Je me suis cogné la tête"...)
On the other hand, I have the feeling that a sentence like "elle lava ses mains/son visage" IS correct, and could be READ in a book. It's just that we never say that in everyday life!


----------



## rappeler

Would someone please explain to me why the definite article is used in the first of the following two sentences but the possessive in the second:
"J'ai les yeux noirs et les cheveux bruns et frisés."
"J'ai mis mes mains sur mes genoux."
My grammar book says it is because the possessor is not evident in the second sentence but that makes no sense to me.
Thank you.


----------



## Philippides

You could put your hands on somebody else's knees or why not take somebody else's hands to put them on your knees!
Nevertheless, if you say "J'ai mis les mains sur les genoux" this would be perfectly correct and I would understand that you talk about your hands and your knees.


----------



## Jesuisunebêche

So I came across this phrase today :
Elle passa *la main dans ses cheveux*
So is this a stylistic thing?  (she's just had her hair done in the short story ) or is there a grammatical reason I'm missing?


----------



## Maître Capello

A bit more context would help. Is she with somebody else? That sentence indeed suggests that she ran her hand through someone else's hair.


----------



## Jesuisunebêche

Nah, she's on her own in the car:
_Elle passa la main dans ses cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille, en bas,... _

The story is l'objet d'art by Jean Paul Daoust (from Québec I think?), I don't think that should change the grammar though


----------



## atcheque

This is idiomatic:
_Elle se passa la main dans les cheveux.
Elle se passa la main dans ses cheveux noirs._


----------



## Maître Capello

Jesuisunebêche said:


> Elle passa la main dans ses cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille


The adjective _noirs_ and the relative clause are modifiers, which change things quite a bit as you shouldn't use the possessive adjective in that case.

Without any modifier:

_Elle *se* passa *la* main dans *les* cheveux._  (most natural way to put it)
_Elle *se* passa *sa* main dans *les/ses* cheveux._  (incorrect because of the double "possessive" _se_ & _sa_ in the COI and COD)
_Elle *se* passa *la* main dans *ses* cheveux._  (not really incorrect, but sloppy because of the double "possessive" _se_ & _ses_, the latter being part of an adverbial phrase, not the COD)
_Elle passa *la* main dans *ses* cheveux._  (correct but ambiguous as it can also refer to somebody else's hair)
_Elle passa *sa* main dans *les* cheveux._  (but it most likely refers to somebody else's hair)
_Elle passa *la* main dans *les* cheveux._  (no reference to herself in any of the pronouns or determiners; it would refer to somebody else's hair)​
With a modifier (adjective and/or relative clause):

_Elle *(se)* passa *la/sa* main dans *les* cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille._  (it would refer to some black hair – probably cut from someone else – but not hers)
_Elle *se* passa *la* main dans *ses* cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille._  (not incorrect, but sloppy because of the double "possessive" _se_ & _ses_)
_Elle passa *la* main dans *ses* cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille._ 
_Elle passa *la* main dans *les* cheveux noirs qu'elle avait fait teindre la veille._  (no reference to herself in any of the pronouns or determiners; it would refer to somebody else's hair)​


----------



## oiseau-mouche

Following on from this could someone please help me understand why some of these two sentences (found in a CoronaVirus poster I am using with my year 11s) are reflexive and some are not 
Je retrousse mes manches. (not reflexive because your sleeves are not part of you)
Je me mouille les mains.  (reflexive because your hands are part of you) 
Je frotte mes mains avec le savon.  Why not reflexive? Because you are adding more detail (avec le savon) ? 
As-tu bien lavé toute la surface de tes mains?  Not se laver because it is talking about 'the whole part' of your hand, as opposed to just 'your hands'?
Je me rince les mains.  (reflexive because your hands are part of you) 
Je me seche les mains. (reflexive because your hands are part of you)

Thank you


----------



## Bezoard

> Je frotte mes mains avec le savon. Why not reflexive? Because you are adding more detail (avec le savon) ?


On pourrait bien sûr dire : _je me frotte les mains avec le savon._
Mais le fait d'avoir renoncé à la tournure réflexive "détache" en quelque sorte les mains du corps. On les considère de manière moins subjective et plus objective comme des objets à part entière qu'il faut frotter.


----------



## Maître Capello

oiseau-mouche said:


> Je retrousse mes manches. (not reflexive because your sleeves are not part of you)


You could actually also say, _Je *me* retrousse *les* manches_, even though sleeves are not body parts per se. They do belong to the person though if the person is wearing the shirt.


----------



## Maharg

I thought I'd got this, but just read so many variants of using reflexive verbs, non-reflexive verbs and possessive pronouns in one single paragraph on a French website that I'm confused all over again and I'm teaching body parts this week so am getting rather nervous now!! :

Website is here and the paragraph of concern is entitled - ironically for me - 'idées de commandes simples'  and is found here 'Jacques a dit : règle du jeu et variantes 

Here are some example sentences:

-  levez les bras  (I think I understand why this is not relfexive)
-  touchez votre nez 
-  touchez-vous le dessus de la tête  
- fermez vos yeux 

Does this just come automatically to a French person?  Is there a rule I'm not seeing?  I don't understand why it's touchez-vous but then touchez - although it sounds right to my ears.  Please send help.  My brain is melting    Thank you!


----------



## olivier68

Hi Maharg,
Complex matter, indeed. You very certainly will find many threads here.

I don't know if it is possible to provide a "general" rule. 
To me, there is one, however: you have to choose between reflectivity (when possible) and possessive adjectives.

For instance, if you want to translate _wash your hands_", you have two (fully equivalent) possibilities :
---> _lavez *vos* mains_
---> _lavez-*vous les* mains_
[---> lavez-vous vos mains : incorrect]


----------



## Maharg

Thanks Olivier68

Yes, I've done lots of reading of threads :-D I've taught this topic a few times before and I'm frustrated with myself that it doesn't feel more solid in my mind.  I was wondering with 'levez les mains' why there is no reflectivity there.  Is it because being reflective would make it seem that one arm was lifting the other?

Is there a particular reason why you might chose 'touchez votre nez' rather 'touchez-vous le nez' for example when you are giving instructions?  I was taught at school that we should always aim to use the reflexive.  Thank you!
(Oh and I'm glad this is considered complex because I'm embarrassed to find it confusing - thank you!)


----------



## Maître Capello

Maharg said:


> - touchez votre nez
> - touchez-vous le dessus de la tête
> - fermez vos yeux


Note that the following phrases are correct as well. Even more so, I prefer them over the ones you quoted!

_Touchez-vous le nez.
Touchez le dessus de votre tête.
Fermez les yeux._

Here is a simple “rule” that should work most of the time: when referring to a simple, unqualified body part, use the reflexive verb with the definite article; otherwise use the possessive adjective.


----------



## olivier68

Oh, I didn't give any _instructions_, just suggestions that work (or not) ;-)


----------



## Maharg

Olivier68 ah yes thank you   - it's me giving the instructions to children as we're dancing to music.  I'm feeling a bit more confident with it now.  Thank you.


----------



## Maître Capello

olivier68 said:


> For instance, if you want to translate _wash your hands_", you have two (fully equivalent) possibilities :
> ---> _lavez *vos* mains_
> ---> _lavez-*vous les* mains_


I beg to disagree: the former is a lot less common and natural than the latter. I mean, both are "possible", but they are certainly not equivalent.


----------



## Maharg

Thanks Maître Capello for clarifying.  I shall follow the use of reflexives as a rule of thumb.  It will be better I think for the children I work with as they'll probably be learning French in English schools as they get older and will be taught to use relflexives with a definite article there.


----------

