# Komu vs. Dla Kogo



## Kos

Hello all,
I'm new to this forum, but I have used it in the past for research.  I thought it would be a good idea to join since I've been learning Polish for a while and still have occasional questions 

Sometimes I have a little trouble determining whether to use the Dative case or the Genitive case.  I was wondering the correct way to ask "Who did you buy this for?"  Where "this" is referring to a gift for example, so "Who did you buy this gift for?"

I'm not sure if we would use the Dative case as in "Komu to kupiłeś?"/Komu kupiłeś ten prezent?" or the Genitive "Dla kogo to kupiłeś?"/Dla kogo kupiles ten prezent?"

I know that "Komu" often asks "to whom" but I'm still not sure if it can be used in the above example. Hopefully somebody could clarifiy this for me. 
Many Thanks
-Kos


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## BezierCurve

Welcome!

Both forms are ok. One might discuss what the subtle difference is, but they are not too relevant in this case.

In the second structure "dla" takes all the burden of "dativness" and so the genitive following it results from being part of a bigger structure (dla X.gen).

EDIT: As you've said, those forms can often replace each other. In some cases you may encounter different application between Polish speakers (as discussed in one of the earlier threads), for example: "powiedzieć coś komuś" (most common) vs. "powiedzieć coś dla kogoś" (some parts of Mazury).


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## Barteque

Well,
the meaning of those two questions is basically the same, but I would say that native speakers use them in different contexts. 

The structure with GEN: "Dla kogo to kupiłeś?" would usually mean that we are talking about a gift. We have bought sth for sb and now we will give it to that person a gift (for free) 
The structure with DAT: "Komu tu kupiłeś?" would usally mean that we are talking just about buying sth for sb, but not necesserily as a gift. For example, sb had asked us to buy sth (because she or he could not do it by themselves) and we did it. And now, this person would probably pay the money back. 

It is not a general rule and those constructions might be used in both contextes. It's just when I think about natural inclination of using dat or gen context.


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## kknd

I'm not sure is that correct in English, but you could recieve this in English as _to buy sth to sb_ and _to buy sth for sb_. I'm afraid that _dla_ construction is taken literally from English... but I'm not sure of it and besides even if it is so, now it seems to be well-founded in Polish.

Personally I use both forms: _kupić coś komuś_ with direct, straight thinking and _kupić coś dla kogoś_ when I think of it as a kind of a gift or with an eye to somebody.


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## Kos

Thank you all very much for your feedback.   I'm glad somebody was actually able to clarify all this for me


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## Thomas1

Hello and welcome to the forums, Kos. 

   In your example both are fine. I would probably go for “dla kogo to kupiłeś?”, but have nothing against the other.

  I also thought about what Barteque said in his post, but it seems not respected by Polish speakers, not in this case, at least.

  There is one case, however, when  one form doesn't work as well as the other one, well at least for me:
_   Kupiłam jej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_

_   Kupiłam dla niej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_
  This sentence sounds quite strange to my ears, unless the speaker comes from a region where such forms may be used there on a regular basis.  You could use it, though:
if you wanted to emphasise who you bought the present for, but I would change the word order:
_Dla niej na urodziny kupiłam perfumy, jak ci się podobają?_
In such cases it sounds perfectly fine.
I've got impression that the dla plus the Genitive works as a sort of dint by which you stress the receiver, but it happens only in certain cases.

  There is another one: “Dla kogo to?” 
  “Komu to?” certainly doesn’t work here.

  Here is something interesting I’ve just found:● _W połączeniu z pewnymi czasownikami wyrażenie z przyimkiem_ dla _może być używane wymiennie z rzeczownikiem w celowniku. Np.:_ Kup dla mamy _a._ mamie prezent imieninowy. Zerwij dla mnie _a._ mi trochę malin! ● _W konstrukcjach oznaczających przekazywanie, dawanie, wyrażenie z przyimkiem_ dla _oznacza przekazywanie pośrednie, przez kogoś (kto w zdaniu nie jest wymieniony, ale o kim się wie, że jest), zastosowanie zaś celownika (bez przyimka) informuje o dawaniu bezpośrednim. Np.:_ Daję ten list dla Piotra _(w domyśle: przez ciebie, za twoim pośrednictwem). i_ Daję ten list Piotrowi _(bezpośrednio)_. ● _Niepoprawne jest używanie konstrukcji z przyimkiem_ dla _wówczas, gdy chodzi o czynność dotyczącą kogoś bezpośrednio. Np.:_ Daj dla mnie, _poprawnie:_ daj mi, cukierka. ● _Niepoprawnie:_ Daj buzi dla mamy. _Poprawnie:_ Daj mamie buzi.

Source: _Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN_ © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA​Hope this helps.


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## kknd

I must say that I would never use _dla_ + dative construction in the way you have used it (_kupić coś dla kogoś na urodziny_), it seems a little awkward to me regardless of word order. Only _kupić coś komuś na urodziny_ sounds natural to me. Nonetheless both forms should be (as stated above) correct.


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## Kos

Hmmm..I see. Thank's again for your input. 
P.S. - Thank you for the small exerpt Thomas. It really clarified for me some of the instances where you use Dative vs. Genitive


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## Thomas1

Small clarification:
_... a dla niej na urodziny kupiłam perfumy, jak ci się podobają?
_It is clear from the context who's ona.


kknd said:


> I must say that I would never use _dla_ + dative construction in the way you have used it (_kupić coś dla kogoś na urodziny_), it seems a little awkward to me regardless of word order. Only _kupić coś komuś na urodziny_ sounds natural to me. Nonetheless both forms should be (as stated above) correct.


Even if you wanted to emphasise the receiver?


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## kknd

ok. tu mnie rzeczywiście masz!


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## Ben Jamin

Kos said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new to this forum, but I have used it in the past for research. I thought it would be a good idea to join since I've been learning Polish for a while and still have occasional questions
> 
> Sometimes I have a little trouble determining whether to use the Dative case or the Genitive case. I was wondering the correct way to ask "Who did you buy this for?" Where "this" is referring to a gift for example, so "Who did you buy this gift for?"
> 
> I'm not sure if we would use the Dative case as in "Komu to kupiłeś?"/Komu kupiłeś ten prezent?" or the Genitive "Dla kogo to kupiłeś?"/Dla kogo kupiles ten prezent?"
> 
> I know that "Komu" often asks "to whom" but I'm still not sure if it can be used in the above example. Hopefully somebody could clarifiy this for me.
> Many Thanks
> -Kos


 
The two expressions: „komu” and „dla kogo” have fairly different meanings in the Polish standard language. For speakers of a substandard Polish language, however, the difference is blurred.
“Komu” is used when the action is directly aimed at somebody – you give the object to the persons hand and the same person is the one that shall keep it: “to whom”.
*Komu dałeś? *means “Who did you give it to? or “Who did you hand it to?. 
“Dla kogo? (*dla* means “for”) is used when the person receiving the object is not the one to keep it.
*Dałem Piotrowi paczkę dla Jana – *means:* „*I gave the parcel to Piotr*, *for Jan*”, *that is I gave it to Piotr’s hands, but asked him to give it to Jan (whom I wouldńt meet in person).
The expression “**Dałem paczkę dla Jana*”, in the meaning “I gave Jan a parcel” is *incorrect* in the literary standard language, if Jan is the final receiver.


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> Hello and welcome to the forums, Kos.
> 
> There is one case, however, when one form doesn't work as well as the other one, well at least for me:
> _Kupiłam jej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_
> 
> _Kupiłam dla niej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_
> This sentence sounds quite strange to my ears, unless the speaker comes from a region where such forms may be used there on a regular basis. You could use it, though:


 
There is nothing strange in the second sentence, it's a perfectly correct sentence in the Polish literary language, but the meaning of those two sentences may be slightly different. While saying "_Kupiłam jej perfumy" you mean: "I bought her a bottle of perfume", but when you say __"Kupiłam dla niej perfumy", you mean __"I bought a bottle of perfume, it is for her, and (rather) I have not given them to her yet._
_However, thie distinction between the two sentences is not obvious, and the speaker may mean exactly the same using them both._


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## Thomas1

Ben Jamin said:


> The two expressions: „komu” and „dla kogo” have fairly different meanings in the Polish standard language. For speakers of a substandard Polish language, however, the difference is blurred.


Sorry, but I don't think this is the case in  the example in question:
"Komu to kupiłeś?"/Komu kupiłeś ten prezent?" 
"Dla kogo to kupiłeś?"/Dla kogo kupiles ten prezent?"​where they have the same meaning. Have you read the note in my post?


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> Sorry, but I don't think this is the case in the example in question:
> "Komu to kupiłeś?"/Komu kupiłeś ten prezent?"
> "Dla kogo to kupiłeś?"/Dla kogo kupiles ten prezent?"​where they have the same meaning. Have you read the note in my post?


 Yes, I agree with you, in this case the meaning is quite similar (please read my post just above yours). The "blurring" however is clear in many instances when people say "Dałem to dla niego" instead of "Dałem to jemu". The construction "dla+genitive" has been almost replaced the dative in many younger people's speach in many regions and social strata. It may be a transitional fashion like the infamous slang dropping of the "Ł" before and after a consonant in the 1970-s (gupi and Bugaria), or it may be sign of an irreversible grammar change.


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## Thomas1

Ben Jamin said:


> There is nothing strange in the second sentence, it's a perfectly correct sentence in the Polish literary language, but the meaning of those two sentences may be slightly different. While saying "_Kupiłam jej perfumy" you mean: "I bought her a bottle of perfume", but when you say __"Kupiłam dla niej perfumy", you mean __"I bought a bottle of perfume, it is for her, and (rather) I have not given them to her yet._
> _However, thie distinction between the two sentences is not obvious, and the speaker may mean exactly the same using them both._


I was talking about spoken Polish. Besides, it may well be contingent upon what we are used to hear, I guess. To me _Kupiłam dla niej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_ doesn't work as well as _Kupiłam jej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_, because it sounds affected to my ear. As I said above I can accept it in certain contexts, but it wouldn't be my choice as an answer to a simple question like _Co kupiłaś Marcie?

_The distinction you've made between "Kupiłam jej perfumy" and "Kupiłam dla niej perfumy" seems interesting, I haven't thought there might be such difference between them. Could you please give an example where it is applied?
 One thing that's just occured to me, perhaps it is more a matter of context here than of the inherent meaning of these constructions?


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> I was talking about spoken Polish. Besides, it may well be contingent upon what we are used to hear, I guess. To me _Kupiłam dla niej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_ doesn't work as well as _Kupiłam jej perfumy na urodziny, jak ci się podobają?_, because it sounds affected to my ear. As I said above I can accept it in certain contexts, but it wouldn't be my choice as an answer to a simple question like _Co kupiłaś Marcie?_
> 
> The distinction you've made between "Kupiłam jej perfumy" and "Kupiłam dla niej perfumy" seems interesting, I haven't thought there might be such difference between them. Could you please give an example where it is applied?
> One thing that's just occured to me, perhaps it is more a matter of context here than of the inherent meaning of these constructions?


 I hope that some non-Poles are following this discussion, otherwise we could as well discuss the matter in Polish.
I am greatly astonished that you find the expression affected. This indicates that there is probably a considerable age difference between us, and that we do not speak the same Polish language. Both I, my wife, and other persons I know would use the incriminated construction as the first choice when coming from a journey and showing a bottle of perfumes meant as a gift for a third person, and it would be the normal register of colloquial speech of an educated Polish person born in Poland before, let's say 1965. I know that the Polish language has changed since I left Poland 28 years ago, but still many of the expressed opinions really amaze me.


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## majlo

If I may add my two cents' worth, my first choice would be _Kupiłem jej perfumy... _as well. I find the other a bit... yes, affected is the right word.


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