# つもりでおります



## lammn

> この件については、改めてご相談申し上げるつもりでおります。
> ご提案させていただくつもりでおります。


I have difficulties in understanding the construction ~つもりでおります or the less polite form ~つもりでいます.
How is it different from ～つもりです?
I find this site has some explanations on the difference in nuance, but I'm not sure if it is correct or not.
What's more, it does not explain on the grammatical side.

I shall be grateful for any help.


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## Wishfull

(つもりで)おります＜(つもりで)おる＝つもりで居る
(つもりで)います＜(つもりで)いる＝つもりで居る

The meaning of 居る　is "be" or "be in the state of ~ing".

おる is older than いる. 
おる　is 文語 or 文語調, and いる is 口語 or 口語調.
Sometimes we feel more polite when we use old expression.

So I feel ~つもりでおります　is more polite than ~つもりでいます.
About 60-80 years ago, a person who could speak most politely was a soldier.
Still today, a defense military soldiers might speak in such a way, though I'm not sure.

Today, ~つもりでおります　is very _hard_, polite expression, which is used in formal situation.
It might be odd, according to the situation.
I don't say it to my close friends or family members.
I personally use the expression from time to time, in my formal speech or letters.

~つもりだ is too abrupt and I don't use in usual conversation.
~つもりです　isn't specially polite. It is usual expression.
~つもりでいます　is more polite than ～つもりです.
~つもりでおります　is the most polite.


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## lammn

Thanks for your reply, Wishfull!

Do you agree with the link I posted in my previous post of this thread that one is likely to change his/her intention tomorrow if one use the phrase ~つもりでおります instead of ~つもりです?

Also, I still don't understand how ~つもりでおります or ~つもりでいますworks grammatically. 
Isn't つもり(積もり) a noun, or adverbial form of the verb 積もる?
If so, how can such a noun be followed by でおります instead of the copula です?


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## Wishfull

I agree with the rink, and don't agree.

What the rink said is correct, in some cases.
つもりでいます　might have more ambiguity, and leave room for excuse.
BUT it depends on the speaker.

I don't think the will of つもりでいます　is weaker than つもりです。
In our adult conversation, direct expression seems childish.
For example;
*Open the window, please.
Would you mind opening the window?*
is saying the same request.

*Your answer is wrong.
Your answer might be wrong.*
The latter have the room for my answer being correct, superficially,
but the speaker is saying the same thing with more polite expression.

I think つもりです　and つもりでいます　have the same level of "will" in some cases,
and not the same in other cases.

つもり＝積り＝見積もり＝前もっての計算＝estimation, calculation in advance

明日電話するつもりです。
＝明日電話するという見積もりです。
＝明日電話するという予定です。

～～するつもりです（つもりでいます・つもりでおります）　is a basic, ordinary, famous idiom of Japanese.
～～する予定です（予定でいます・予定でおります）　is almost the same thing.

The past tense have completely different meaning.
明日電話するつもりでした。
This is a typical excuse.


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## lammn

Wishfull said:


> つもりでいます　might have more ambiguity, and leave room for excuse.
> BUT it depends on the speaker.


 
Okay, I get that point.
Thanks a lot! 

However, I still don't understand the grammar.
Is でおります/でいます the present continuous form of the copula です?


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## Wishfull

lammn said:


> However, I still don't understand the grammar.
> Is でおります/でいます the present continuous form of the copula です?



でーおりーます。
でーいーます。
I think there is a verb;居る（いるorおる）　in there.
The verb's function is like "be" in English.


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## lammn

Is the conjugation of だ・です the same way as that of the other verbs?
For example:

書く　　　　　　　　　　だ
書きます　　　　　　　　です
書いている　　　　　　　でいる　
書いています　　　　　　でいます 
書いております　　　　　でおります


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## Wishfull

従来の量産型ザクよりも、さらに進化した*機能であります。*
従来の量産型ザクよりも、さらに進化した*機能である。*
*
吾輩は猫である。*
*吾輩は猫であり**ます**。*
*
つもりでいます。
**つもりでいる。*
* 
名詞―で―動詞―（ます）。

*I think in all six examples, ”で”　is functioning the same way.


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## Derselbe

lammn said:


> Is でおります/でいます the present continuous form of the copula です?


 
I just want to add something that took me quite a while to understand.

I don't think でいる and でおる have something to do with です in terms of grammar. Sure they might be translated the same in english, but they are different words. The verbs are just いる and おる preceeded by a で, whereas です is not a verb at all.

Besides, although many people think of です as a copula, it is not that either.


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## lrosa

Derselbe said:


> I just want to add something that took me quite a while to understand.
> 
> I don't think でいる and でおる have something to do with です in terms of grammar. Sure they might be translated the same in english, but they are different words. The verbs are just いる and おる preceeded by a で, whereas です is not a verb at all.
> 
> Besides, although many people think of です as a copula, it is not that either.



I had not come across "でいる" before, but isn't  です a contraction of "であります" (and だ a contraction of である)? I find it easy to think of it like this:

です　＝　であります　＝　でございます　(in terms of meaning, where ございます is a more formal version of あります)
いる　＝　おる (in terms of meaning, where おる is a more formal version of いる)

Therefore, でいる and でおる are related to each other, but not related to です, just as Derselbe said.


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## kaito

です does come from でございます but not all で+existence verbs　are equal.
For some reason it's ok to add です (and　でございます)　to i-adjectives but not だ　（or　である） but that's another topic I guess.


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## lrosa

kaito said:


> です does come from でございます but not all で+existence verbs　are equal.
> For some reason it's ok to add です (and　でございます)　to i-adjectives but not だ　（or　である） but that's another topic I guess.



But I believe that is only a relatively recent progression - before, です could not be added to i-adjectives. 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=620316


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## Derselbe

lrosa said:


> But I believe that is only a relatively recent progression - before, です could not be added to i-adjectives.



It's not.

今日、いい天気ですか。
今日、いい天気だか。

The second one is not a valid Japanese sentence. You can not replace です with　だ.

そうだと思います
そうですと思ういます。

Here です is wrong. You can not replace だ with　です in this case. 

I am not sure about いい天気じゃないだ.
Seems wrong to me. 
But いい天気じゃないです seems fine.

I think it's better to think of them as two entirely different things. Even if there are connections, this seems to be the best way to learn the usage.


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## uchi.m

Derselbe said:


> But いい天気じゃないです seems fine.


いい天気じゃないです sounds a little odd to my ears because ~dewanai already includes a ~de particle, which makes a further ~desu unnecessary.


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## lammn

Thanks to all of you for your input! 

I know that だ and です are not always interchangable.
What buffles me is the usage of でいる and でおる.



lrosa said:


> です　＝　であります　＝　でございます　(in terms of meaning, where ございます is a more formal version of あります)


 
I think the contraction of であります should be である.
And I agree with Kaito that です is the contraction of でございます.


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## lrosa

Originally Posted by *lrosa* 
                 But I believe that is only a relatively recent progression - before, です could not be added to i-adjectives.




Derselbe said:


> It's not.



It's not? How do you know?




Derselbe said:


> 今日、いい天気ですか。
> 今日、いい天気だか。
> 
> The second one is not a valid Japanese sentence. You can not replace です with　だ.
> 
> そうだと思います
> そうですと思ういます。
> 
> Here です is wrong. You can not replace だ with　です in this case.
> 
> I am not sure about いい天気じゃないだ.
> Seems wrong to me.
> But いい天気じゃないです seems fine.
> 
> I think it's better to think of them as two entirely different things. Even if there are connections, this seems to be the best way to learn the usage.



I didn't mean to suggest that だ and　です are interchangeable... 



lammn said:


> I think the contraction of であります should be である.
> And I agree with Kaito that です is the contraction of でございます.



である is the plain form of であります, while だ is the contraction of である. です is the contraction of であります or でございます.


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## Derselbe

lrosa said:


> Originally Posted by *lrosa*
> It's not? How do you know?
> I didn't mean to suggest that だ and　です are interchangeable...



Oh, I am sorry. I completely misunderstood your post. I thought we were talking about です being the polite form of だ and i-adjectives being the only example where です and だ were not interchangeable. I should read more carefully. I apologize for the confusion and my apparently not very usefull comment.

Then again:


> while だ is the contraction of である. です is the contraction of であります


Which would mean that です is the polite form of だ, right?


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## lrosa

Derselbe said:


> Then again:
> 
> _Quote:_
> _ 			 				while だ is the contraction of である. です is the contraction of であります 			 		_
> 
> Which would mean that です is the polite form of だ, right?



Well, not exactly. What I mean is that when you see "だ", you can take it to be a contraction of "である", and the same with です and であります.


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