# Glasgow - pronunciation [BrEnglish]



## audiolaik

Hi,

Which of the following do you tend to use, dear native English speakers? 

a) glɑːzgəʊ  /ɑː/ as in car; /əʊ/ as in go
b) glæzgəʊ   /æ/ as in cat
c) glɑːsgəʊ
d) glæsgəʊ
e) glɑːskəʊ
f) glæskəʊ

Why is it so that there are so many acceptable alternatives?

Thank you!

A&AJnr


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## timpeac

I don't really understand your question Audio. I say a) because that is how those phonemes are pronounced in my variety of English. People from other areas of the country, and from other countries, will pronounce it according to their local accent.

In other words - I don't think you will find two people who otherwise have the same accent pronouncing this word differently from each other.


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## audiolaik

timpeac said:


> I don't really understand your question Audio. I say a) because that is how those phonemes are pronounced in my variety of English. People from other areas of the country, and from other countries, will pronounce it according to their local accent.
> 
> In other words - I don't think you will find two people who otherwise have the same accent pronouncing this word differently from each other.



I really am sorry, timpeac, if my question is not clear enough. Working as an EFL teacher, it's a must for me to know as much as possible about the language I teach. So, having _*six*_ various alternatives of the same word, I need to do everything I can to answer my students' (possible) questions. In this very example, the differences are noticeable enough to attract my attention, as well as my students'.
Following your reasoning, any pronunciation question is of little value and leads to nowhere....


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## timpeac

audiolaik said:


> I really am sorry, timpeac, if my question is not clear enough. Working as an EFL teacher, it's a must for me to know as much as possible about the language I teach. So, having _*six*_ various alternatives of the same word, I need to do everything I can to answer my students' (possible) questions. In this very example, the differences are noticeable enough to attract my attention, as well as my students'.
> Following your reasoning, any pronunciation question is of little value and leads to nowhere....


Not true!! I don't understand your question "why are there so many acceptable alternatives?" This is true for any word which has several sounds which can vary depending on accent - but knowing you on these forums for as long as I have I know you must know that, which is what I find confusing about your question. I'm not sure what it is you are really asking. There are 3 items in this word that can vary by accent which allows the possibilities you quote.

Edit - to put it another way, there are not 6 acceptable pronunciations _within the same accent_. If my brother pronounced Glasgow with the short "a", for example, that would sound very odd to me whereas if someone with a northern accent said it that way it would sound fine.


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## audiolaik

timpeac said:


> Not true!! I don't understand your question "why are there so many acceptable alternatives?" This is true for any word which has several sounds which can vary depending on accent - but knowing you on these forums for as long as I have I know you must know that, which is what I find confusing about your question. I'm not sure what it is you are really asking. There are 3 items in this word that can vary by accent which allows the possibilities you quote.




You might be right, timpeac, that I should have thought more about my question, but the number of the acceptable forms was so unusual -- at least to me -- that I decided to post such an ill-considered question, for which I would like to apologise to you. On the other hand, it might be so that you, native English speakers, are so accustomed to such a variety of your accents that such things don't impress you any more. Anyway, thank you for your help.

PS You seem to have overestimated my English....

A&AJnr

EDIT

I've never said that there can be X "acceptable pronunciations _within the same accent_."

EDIT 2

To non native English speakers who teach English: Just show your students all the six forms and observe their reactions. I bet they will be amused, if not bemused.


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## ewie

I say (b) because (as Tim says) that's what I _ought_ to say.
I suspect the reason there are so many varying pronunciations is that the word's pronounced differently depending on: (1) whether or not you're English or Scottish; (2) which part of England or Scotland you come from; and (3) how formal or informal you're being.
I have a general feeling-in-my-water that Glaswegians themselves have /z/ in the middle, whereas (e.g.) Highlanders have /s/.

(Unfortunately I've thought about it so long now that the word's starting to sound like Swahili)

P.S. I've definitely heard _more_ variations than the six you list, including /e/ in the middle and /ə/ at the end.


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## Loob

Hi audio

I suspect there are really only two variables in your examples: the choice between /ɑː/ and /æ/ and that between /z/ and /s/. (Wouldn't the /k/~/g/ issue be phonetically determined: unvoiced /k/ following unvoiced /s/, voiced /g/ following voiced /z/?)

The /ɑː/ vs /æ/ choice is entirely accent-based, I'd say. I grew up in south-west England saying /ɑː/; I then married a Scot and started using his /æ/ in a number of words, not just 'Glasgow'. 

As to the /s/ vs /z/ choice, I'm not so sure. I'm not conscious of having heard 'Glasgow' with an /s/, though it's entirely possible I've heard it without noticing. Independently of broader accent considerations, pronunciation of town and city names can vary considerably depending on whether you're a "local" or not.

EDIT: I've just read ewie's post. Yes, I've heard his additional vowel variations too (and some others).


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## audiolaik

ewie said:


> P.S. I've definitely heard _more_ variations than the six you list, including /e/ in the middle and /ə/ at the end.





Loob said:


> EDIT: I've just read ewie's post. Yes, I've heard his additional vowel variations too (and some others).



Thank you, Auntie and Uncle, for muddying the waters.

AudioJnr is waving at you!


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## audiolaik

Loob said:


> As to the /s/ vs /z/ choice, I'm not so sure. I'm not conscious of having heard 'Glasgow' with an /s/, though it's entirely possible I've heard it without noticing.



So, are you trying to say that the /z/ version predominates?


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## Loob

Possibly!

What I'm definitely saying is that (1) I pronounce it with a /z/ (2) as far as I'm aware (NB!) I've usually heard it with a /z/.

I think you would be quite safe in teaching the /z/+/g/ pronunciation to your students.  And if the accent they're learning is generally RP-like, then go with /ɑː/.


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## Gorz

Sorry, I don't understand the written sounds, whatever they are called

The answer will depend on where you come from, if you are from a more affluent background you will say, Glazgo and if you are from a less affluent background you will say Glesca or Glesga.  I don't know how that corresponds to the spellings that indicate the pronunciation.  Once you get out of the greater Glasgow area, the pronunciation changes again, and I can't really help with them. 

Hope this helps.


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## audiolaik

Loob said:


> Possibly!
> 
> What I'm definitely saying is that (1) I pronounce it with a /z/ (2) as far as I'm aware (NB!) I've usually heard it with a /z/.
> 
> I think you would be quite safe in teaching the /z/+/g/ pronunciation to your students.  And if the accent they're learning is generally RP-like, then go with /ɑː/.



It goes without saying that I'm trying to teach them this notorious accent.


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## ><FISH'>

"Glazgą/Glazgół/Glazgó" is what I use. Also, it doesn't always have the same ending. People from Glasgow might pronounce it "Glazgy" if they're being informal.

As for why there are so many alternatives, that's just because English is like that. Glasgow has comparatively few variations considering some other place names.


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## ><FISH'>

audiolaik said:


> It goes without saying that I'm trying to teach them this notorious accent.


I don't understand why you would teach English like this. RP is generally really straining to speak, and for Polish people the vowel sounds are far too complex. The native Polish vowels work fine in this case: Glaz+gół. Trying to teach them an RP "a" and "o" is just unnecessary complication, in my opinion.


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## sound shift

I use pronunciation b).


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## Loob

Gorz said:


> Sorry, I don't understand the written sounds, whatever they are called
> 
> The answer will depend on where you come from, if you are from a more affluent background you will say, Glazgo and if you are from a less affluent background you will say Glesca or Glesga. I don't know how that corresponds to the spellings that indicate the pronunciation. Once you get out of the greater Glasgow area, the pronunciation changes again, and I can't really help with them.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Hi Gorz - welcome to the forums! Thanks for bringing an authentic Glasgow view.

(The written symbols are IPA - the _International Phonetic Alphabet_. You can find more information on them here.)


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## Gorz

Evening, thanks for the link and welcome.  Just by chance that I found this thread, I mostly only read the Italian forum.


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## audiolaik

><FISH'> said:


> I don't understand why you would teach English like this. RP is generally really straining to speak, and for Polish people the vowel sounds are far too complex. The native Polish vowels work fine in this case: Glaz+gół. Trying to teach them an RP "a" and "o" is just unnecessary complication, in my opinion.



I don't want to sound off-topic, but if you insist....(The eagle-eyed moderator are watching us, remember!)

I totally disagree with you, FISH. RP appears to be the only reasonable accent to be acquired by foreign learners, including Polish students. If not RP, then what? Any native English speaker can understand RP speakers, and the RP sounds are not so difficult to master as you claim. 

My BA paper was on the issue of accuracy and intelligibility in teaching pronunciation, so I had to read a lot about it, especially about RP and other varieties of English. In my opinion, it's the safest and easiest accent that one can pick up.

I usually teach FCE and CAE students, so it's not enough for them to be just intelligible!!!

A&AJnr


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## boozer

Before I read your thread, Audio, I (suspect that I) said your b/, basking in blissful ignorance of the multiple ways to call this Scottish city. Now every time I say it (and over the past 3 minutes I've said it twice as many times as I had my entire life before), it sounds different and is some borderline case that conforms to none of your "standard" pronunciations. And I have every intention of suing you for this 

So, rather than confusing your students and me, you just skip this and go straight to the London lesson, where they would be far less likely to get bemused.


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## Gorz

Having read the IPA article, I would say that I pronouce it as, glɑːzgəʊ  (Glazgo, if another native English speaker can confirm I am right in my understanding?) , as for the other 2 examples that I quoted for Glasweigans, I don't think they exist on the list.


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## JulianStuart

audiolaik said:


> I don't want to sound off-topic, but if you insist....(The eagle-eyed moderator are watching us, remember!)
> 
> I totally disagree with you, FISH. RP appears to be the only reasonable accent to be acquired by foreign learners, including Polish students. If not RP, then what? Any native English speaker can understand RP speakers, and the RP sounds are not so difficult to master as you claim.
> 
> A&AJnr


Hi Audio and Jr
I say a) and believe it is how it would be said in_ modern _RP (perhaps the older or U-RP would have a bit of ei before the owe sound at the end - I can't put that into IPA - perhaps some can help)


> The 1993 Oxford Dictionary changed three main things in its description  of modern RP, although these features can still be heard amongst* old  speakers of RP.* Firstly, words such as* cloth, gone, off, often/ɔː/* were pronounced with  (as in General American) instead of /ɒ/, so that _often_ sounded *close to orphan* (See lot-cloth split). The Queen still uses the older pronunciations[22], but it is *rare to hear them on the BBC any more*



That's from the wiki on received pronunciation.  Whenever I had heard "RP" I thought of the sounds the speakers of older RP made (clawth, gawn, awff, awft'n, etc as well as skites and brinies - -for cloth, gone, off, often, scouts and brownies, respectively; they _may_ now be referred to as U-RP see here for edification and amusement on language and mispronunciations).  I therefore had the same reaction as Fish on your  trying to perpetuate that form.  However, if, as it seems, there is a more _ modern _form that is still called RP, then it's a slately different iss-yew.


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## e2efour

audiolaik said:


> IRP appears to be the only reasonable accent to be acquired by foreign learners, including Polish students. If not RP, then what? Any native English speaker can understand RP speakers.



First, I use the standard (BBC) pronunciation no. 2. I reject the long a in no.1 since Glaswegians themselves, even though they might pronounce the rest of the word differently, use /glæ/, and I myself come from the north of England, which uses /æ/ in words like castle. Glazgo is the standard pronuncation, although Glaswegians pronounce the go with a short o, as do my Scottish relatives (from Dundee).

Secondly, to comment on the underlined words above, one might expect this to be the case. However, last week I had central heating installed. One of the installers spoke an almost incomprehensible (to me) Yorkshire (or possibly Newcastle) dialect. But he also found it hard to understand my standard accent!


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## Loob

Gorz said:


> Having read the IPA article, I would say that I pronouce it as, glɑːzgəʊ (Glazgo, if another native English speaker can confirm I am right in my understanding?) , as for the other 2 examples that I quoted for Glasweigans, I don't think they exist on the list.


So, Gorz - looking back at audio's post 1 - you pronounce the "a" as in "car" and the "ow" as in "go"? That's the pronunciation I recommended audio should use with his students.

(And yes, I agree - the other pronunciations you mentioned aren't on his list...)


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## audiolaik

e2efour said:


> Secondly, to comment on the underlined words above, one might expect this to be the case. However, last week I had central heating installed. One of the installers spoke an almost incomprehensible (to me) Yorkshire (or possibly Newcastle) dialect. But he also found it hard to understand my standard accent!



Is it a matter of education, e2efour?  (I'm talking about the other guy.)


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## Loob

e2efour said:


> First, I use the standard (BBC) pronunciation no. 2.


According to my _Oxford BBC Guide to Pronunciation_, the "standard" BBC pronunciation is (a):





> *Glasgow* city, Scotland
> *glahz*-goh /'glɑːzgəʊ/
> -------------------
> This is a standardised version of the place name. Locally the pronunciation is *glaz*-goh.
> -------------------


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## e2efour

audiolaik said:


> Is it a matter of education, e2efour?  (I'm talking about the other guy.)


I did try to speak slowly clearly, using simple words! 
However, Newcastle is the one place in the UK where I would have problems understanding the natives.


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## audiolaik

e2efour said:


> I did try to speak slowly clearly, using simple words!
> However, Newcastle is the one place in the UK where I would have problems understanding the natives.



So, I can throw my BA paper into the nearest litter bin!


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## e2efour

Loob said:


> According to my _Oxford BBC Guide to Pronunciation_, the "standard" BBC pronunciation is (a):


True. When I said standard or BBC version, I meant that used in the north of England and Scotland by educated speakers -- therefore the short a. I wanted to avoid saying RP pronuncation in its traditional meaning, which is old-fashioned.
I could never bring myself say /glɑːzgəʊ/ since I was born in the north. (I do, however, vary my a's depending on who I'm talking to.)


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## e2efour

audiolaik said:


> So, I can throw my BA paper into the nearest litter bin!


Well, I wondered whether you could explain the phenomenon.


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## JulianStuart

Loob said:


> According to my _Oxford BBC Guide to Pronunciation_, the "standard" BBC pronunciation is (a):



Phew Thanks for the comforting citation. 

Do you know if there is a site which has  has audio exemplars of the aforementioned standard, given the "new onces" we have had to wrestle with covering accents and such and how to represent them?


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## audiolaik

e2efour said:


> Well, I wondered whether you could explain the phenomenon.



Well, one of my conclusions was that RP ought to be easily understood by most native English speakers, and you proved that I had been wrong.


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## timpeac

Long-awaiting mod comment.

This thread is not about what is or is not RP - if you're interested please open a thread on the subject - PM me if you do and I'll add a link to this message!

timpeac (with mod hat on)


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## wildan1

audiolaik said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which of the following do you tend to use, dear native English speakers?
> 
> a) glɑːzgəʊ /ɑː/ as in car; /əʊ/ as in go
> b) glæzgəʊ /æ/ as in cat
> c) glɑːsgəʊ
> d) glæsgəʊ
> e) glɑːskəʊ
> f) glæskəʊ
> 
> Why is it so that there are so many acceptable alternatives?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> A&AJnr


 
AE speakers would have at least three more pronunciations:

We ALL would say the first syllable as /_glæs_/

The second syllable would have an open /o:/--Upper Midwesterners would have a very open /o:/ (far back in the throat but elided with a slight W), whereas East/West coast speakers would have a moderate open /o/ and many Southerners would tend to elide the /o/ with a "big ole" /W/!

So that's three more phonetic variations for you...


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## Kumpel

e2efour said:


> I could never bring myself say /glɑːzgəʊ/ since I was born in the north.



I completely agree.

My pronunciation is /ˈglæz.gəʊ/.

Haha, I thought I'd have a look on Wiktionary, but was greeted by this notice...




> This entry needs pronunciation information. If you are familiar with enPR, IPA, or SAMPA then please add some!
> Particularly: “local and general Scottish required”


Lloyd


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## e2efour

An interesting site for how to pronounce Glasgow is 
http://www.forvo.com/search/glasgow/

Many different pronunciations are given, but only three genuine Glaswegians, one of whom says glezgi (approximately).
If you click on the arrow for Glasgow 8 pronunciations, you get the real standard pronunciation in a Scottish accent. Note the short o.


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## ewie

e2efour said:


> Many different pronunciations are given, but only three genuine Glaswegians, one of whom says glezgi (approximately).


I had it in my head that the pronunciations /glezgi/ and /glæzgi/ were absolute no-nos among native Glaswegians.
But I was thinking of something else.
And unfortunately I can't remember what it is.  It definitely has something to do with Glasgow, though.


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## Phil-Olly

Sorry, I also get confused by the IPA symbols, but for what it's worth:

I think most would agree that the 's' is voiced (as 'z').  It's only the teuchtars (from north of the highland line) that would pronounce the 's' unvoiced.

Also that the '-ow' rhymes with 'go'

However if you were to ask me whether the 'a' is long or short, I would have said neither long nor short but somewhere in between.  More like the Spanish 'a'.

Some Scots have an accent whereby they pronounce the 'a' in Glasgow as short, but these people also say 'lager' as if it rhymes with 'swagger' and 'castle' to rhyme with 'tassle'; so I think of them a rather a lost cause!  (Apologies to anyone who actually speaks like that).


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## pickarooney

I pronounce it with a short A, a Z and an O. I think this equates to ['glaz-go]


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## Majorbloodnock

audiolaik said:


> .... On the other hand, it might be so that you, native English speakers, are so accustomed to such a variety of your accents that such things don't impress you any more. ...


My wife at one point had to go to Glasgow and took a 45 minute taxi ride from the airport to her hotel. The taxi driver was talking to her for the whole journey, and she did not understand a single word.

My point is that even though regional accents are still British accents, native Brits will often still have difficulty with some of them. Yes, we'll accept the wide variation of pronunciations with little surprise, but knowing some Brits can talk English to you without you understanding what they're saying is simply an understood fact of British life. Once you accept that, the sheer number of different ways of saying "Glasgow" becomes entirely unremarkable.

I suppose it's just a cultural thing....


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## entangledbank

I use (a), [glɑːzgəʊ], and believe this is the normal RP/Southern pronunciation. I have noticed people say it because, as I recall, the _BBC Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives [glɑːsgəʊ] first and the [s] surprised me when I read it years ago. I haven't heard [s], to my knowledge.

I have no idea how Glaswegians say it, because I can't understand what Glaswegians say.

_Edit._ I don't think it's been mentioned yet (but this is a long thread) that a standard Scottish accent doesn't have a choice between a-vowels - TRAP and PALM have the same vowel - and has no phonemic length. So the syllable is /glaz/; a Glasgow accent seems to significantly lengthen stressed vowels, giving [gla:z].


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## Szkot

I don't know what a 'standard Scottish' accent is, or whether such a thing exists, but I certainly  distinguish the vowels in trap and palm.  

 As to the pronunciation of Glasgow, I suspect I vary both in the  pronunciation of the first vowel, and the degree of voicing  of the 'sg'.


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## Phil-Olly

audiolaik said:


> a) glɑːzgəʊ  /ɑː/ as in car; /əʊ/ as in go
> b) glæzgəʊ   /æ/ as in cat



For me, as a resident of the city in question,
in a) the 'a' is too long, and
in b) the 'a' is too short.

Does anyone agree there is a pronunciation of 'a' that lies approximately mid-way between these two, and if so, is there an IPA symbol for it?


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## natkretep

Phil-Olly said:


> For me, as a resident of the city in question,
> in a) the 'a' is too long, and
> in b) the 'a' is too short.
> 
> Does anyone agree there is a pronunciation of 'a' that lies approximately mid-way between these two, and if so, is there an IPA symbol for it?


 
Could you map the pronunciations to the way you say _can_, _can't _and _car_? Are the vowel sounds the same? Entangledbank suggests that the vowels are the same, but you suggest there is a three-way distinction for you!

The IPA symbols are approximations, and you might find dictionaries that vary the symbols.

Some dictionaries prefer /a/ to /æ/ for the vowel in _can_, as the tongue position is lower than where it was in the past. Some people can distinguish vowels just by having one short /a/ and another one long /a:/. For others, the long vowel is automatically a back vowel too ( with the tongue raised further back) /ɑː/.

And for myself, I say (a) or (c). As others have said, it's got to fit in with how I pronounce things like _castle_. I do have a long back vowel there, so I use it for _Glasgow_ too.


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## Phil-Olly

natkretep said:


> Could you map the pronunciations to the way you say _can_, _can't _and _car_? Are the vowel sounds the same? Entangledbank suggests that the vowels are the same, but you suggest there is a three-way distinction for you!



That's it, Nat.  Pretty much exactly.  

I, and I suspect most of my fellow Glaswegians, would pronounce the "a" as in "can't".


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## timpeac

Phil-Olly said:


> That's it, Nat.  Pretty much exactly.
> 
> I, and I suspect most of my fellow Glaswegians, would pronounce the "a" as in "can't".


The trouble is that saying "the "a" of "can't"" means that we need to know how you pronounce he "a" of "can't"!


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## Phil-Olly

timpeac said:


> The trouble is that saying "the "a" of "can't"" means that we need to know how you pronounce he "a" of "can't"!



Well of course, but I thought we'd covered that.

"Can": short "a"
"Car" : long "a"
"Can't": somewhere about mid-way between the two.

The same applies to "Sandra".  Anyone remember the TV series "The Liver Birds"?  Sandra's mum, with a strong Liverpool accent, used a very short vowel in the first syllable of her name, whereas Beryl's Mum (Mollie Sugden), who thought herself posh, always said "Sandra" with a long "a" in the first syllable.

Here in Glasgow, we say "Sandra" with a vowel sound mid-way between these two extremes.

Try saying a short "a" whilst keeping your mouth in the form where it would be if you were saying a long "a".


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## natkretep

Thank, Phil. Let me try to say what I think your vowels are in IPA terms. I think you have a slightly different vowel for _can_ and _can't_, not only in terms of length but in terms of quality, possibly a near-open vowel /æ/ as opposed to /a/, and the latter is lengthened /a:/ for _car_. Therefore: /'glazgo:/.

A lot of Scottish accents lack the back vowel /ɑ:/, so I assume you don't use this. But some might have a vowel halfway back /ɐ/, so the other possibility is this three-way distinction: /a/ - /ɐ/ - /ɐ:/ - hence /glɐzgo:/.


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## berndf

natkretep said:


> A lot of Scottish accents lack the back vowel /ɑ:/, so I assume you don't use this. But some might have a vowel halfway back /ɐ/, so the other possibility is this three-way distinction: /a/ - /ɐ/ - /ɐ:/ - hence /glɐzgo:/.


If this in-the-middle-between-long-and-short-a vowel Phil-Olly described were a /ɐ/ then his pronunciation of "can't" would sound like the modern RP pronunciation of "cunt" (the vowel traditionally transcribed /ʌ/ is lower and more forward in modern RP than it used to be).
@Phil-Olly: Is this what you meant?


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## Phil-Olly

berndf said:


> If this in-the-middle-between-long-and-short-a vowel Phil-Olly described where a /ɐ/ then his pronunciation of "can't" would sound like the modern RP pronunciation of "cunt" (the vowel traditionally transcribed /ʌ/ is lower and more forward in modern RP than it used to be).
> @Phil-Olly: Is this what you meant?



Well, no.  

There's a clear diffence between "can't" and "cunt", just as there is between "staff" and "stuff", although "staff" doesn't rhyme with "naff"

Here's another example:

Lager: 
with a short "a" rhymes with "swagger"
with a long "a" sounds like "larger" (not rhotic) but with a hard G
But I say neither of these, and certainly not "lugger".


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## berndf

Phil-Olly said:


> Well, no.


That's what I thought.

The way you described it, I understood it as /ɑː/ becoming /ɑ/, i.e. same sound as /ɑː/, just shorter.


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