# Ut igitur et nos audiamus eum



## KsSp

Hello. 
Here is another piece of Origen's _Homily 18 on Luke_.

'Ut igitur et nos audiamus eum et proponat nobis quaestiones, quas ipse dissolvat, obsecremus illum et cum labore nimio et dolore quaeramus, et tunc poterimus invenire, quem quaerimus.'

Does it mean something like the following: 'Let us also hear how He asks us questions to which He Himself gives answers, and pray eagerly and with our heart in pain that we can acquire/find, and then we will be able to find the One Who we are looking for.' ?

The context is the following: Origen is describing how Jesus, when He was young, preached in the temple and His parents could not find Him. Then comes this sentence. 

Thank you!


----------



## bearded

Hello

Here my attempt (literal, bad English: just for understanding):
_Therefore, so that we, too, may listen to him and he may ask us questions to which he himself gives answers, let's implore him and look for him with much labour and grief: and then we shall be able to find the one we are looking for._

A slightly different possibility is that the initial 'ut' depends on 'obsecremus illum'. If so, the translation would read: _Therefore, let's implore him that we may listen to him………..and let's look for him…._ 

Better translators than myself will hopefully be in a position to choose and decide which is the correct solution.

Here some more context: Origenis Opera omnia.


----------



## Snodv

I'll try it!  I think the _ut_ may introduce a purpose clause.  "So, then, that we both may hear him and he may propose questions to us which he himself may resolve, let us both beseech him with the greatest effort and take pains to search [a little paraphrase there], and then we will be able to find whom we are seeking."


----------



## bearded

Thank you, Snodv, for letting me/us know your choice - which corresponds to the first/former translation I proposed. And you of course express yourself in a splendid 'native' English!


----------



## Scholiast

saluete omnes!

Another pompous reply from your Scotland correspondent.

'In order that we too may listen to Him, and that He may put to us the questions which He himself is to resolve [full marks for this 'resolve', Snodv ], let us pray and petition that with so much labour and pain we may eventually be able to find the One [Saviour] whom we seek'.

Glad of course to receive other and contradictory answers if anyone has a better suggestion.

Σ


----------



## bearded

Scholiast said:


> and petition that with so much labour and pain we may eventually be able


Hi Scholiast
Since ''et nunc poterimus..'' seems to be an independent, co-ordinate clause, your translation of that phrase is quite nice as regards style, but a bit too free in my view (if I may take the liberty..). All the rest is of course terrific.


----------



## Scholiast

bearded said:


> Hi Scholiast
> Since ''et nunc poterimus..'' seems to be an independent, co-ordinate clause, your translation of that phrase is quite nice as regards style, but a bit too free in my view (if I may take the liberty..). All the rest is of course terrific.


Dear Barbato

In all honesty I can see no warrant for quarrel or argument with my writings here. Naturally I have reviewed them, and you know I shall not demur if you can offer better.

L—as ever


----------



## bearded

By 'terrific' I of course meant splendid, fantastic. Sorry if it's a too 'American' term that can be misunderstood.


----------



## Scholiast

saluete amici de nouo!

Yes, I am having another look at this (no 'quarrel' whatever, bearded!). And of course I understood 'terrific', which in colloquial British English always has positive nuances.

With the main verbs _obsecremus _and _quaeramus_ ('Let us beg and ask...'), I now wonder whether the _ut..._clause is (what I was taught is) an indirect command, rather than, as Snodv _noster_ suggests (in # 3), a purpose clause. I am also now inclined, however, to view _quas...dissolvat_ as a purpose clause.

So at present I come up with this: 'Let us pray Him and strenuously and sorrowfully ask that we may hear Him, and that He may make demands of us which He may Himself release us from, and then we shall be able to find Him whom we seek.'

Σ


----------



## KsSp

Thank you, Scholiast, bearded and snodv! For some reason, Latin remains quite a mysterious language, but since even such experienced users (perhaps, 'speakers' cannot be applied to ancient languages) like you sometimes have different opinions on certain questions, it is evidence that it is an endless field to explore.


----------

