# masmiira(t)



## Qcumber

One comes across masmira “jewel, precious stone” in some South-East Asian languages. 
My impression is that it comes from the Arabic feminine adjectival form masmiira(t) ةzÀ°€¯ [masmi:ra], that is not recorded in my dictionaries. I suppose it was used by Arab / Muslim traders instead of saamuur ر½¯\~ [sa:mu:r] “diamond” several centuries ago. Do you think this derivation from s*amira **z°~* “to be brown” is possible?


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## ayed

Qcumber said:


> One comes across masmira “jewel, precious stone” in some South-East Asian languages.
> My impression is that it comes from the Arabic feminine adjectival form masmiira(t) ةzÀ°€¯ [masmi:ra], that is not recorded in my dictionaries. I suppose it was used by Arab / Muslim traders instead of saamuur ر½¯\~ [sa:mu:r] “diamond” several centuries ago. Do you think this derivation from s*amira **z°~* “to be brown” is possible?


 
Welcome n Qcumber.
If you just add more explanation or context , it would help and guide us to the required word directly.
I have been looking for it yet.


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## Qcumber

OK, Ayed, I'll rephrase my post.
1) According to my dictionary, "diamond" is saamuur ر½¯\~ [sa:mu:r] in Arabic.
2) So one expects Arab / Muslim traders voyaging to South-East Asia would use this term, and that it was borrowed by some local people in South-East Asia.
3) Now, it is not this term they used, but another one from the same root: *masmiira(t) ةzÀ°€¯* [masmi:ra] < s*amira **z°~* “to be brown”, that became _*masmira*_ in South-East Asia, and took on another, but related meaning "jewel, precious stone".
 
My problem is that masmiira(t) is not entered in my dictionary.
Despite this fact, do you think it possible that some Arabic speakers used it?


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## MeiLing

Sorry, Qcumber.
Although _saamoor_ (سامور) means 'diamond' and is an Arabic word, yet the word _masmiira(t)_ (مسميرة) is not so, as far as I know.
I'm not familiar with South-East Asian languages, but I doubt that _masmiira(t)_ (مسميرة) originates from the Arabic language. If it really does, then we would have found it in either traditional or recent Arabic monoligual dictionries.


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## Tajabone

Sorry Qcumber but the word doesn't sound familiar to me.

 Oddly enough, Lisan Al-'Arab doesn't mention the word saamuur (سامور).


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## MeiLing

Saamuur IS mentioned in Lisaan al-Arab. Check HERE please.
You can open that page from this link HERE.


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## Tajabone

Thanks MeiLing but I can see and read all the pages except the two last dictionaries  Yet, I have an e-version of E-Lisaan but I can't see where it mentions diamonds. Could you copy and paste the definition in question ? 

 Thanks !


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## MeiLing

With pleasure.  
Here are the parts that come immediately before and after the definition in question:
*السامُور الألماس*​


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## Tajabone

Thanks again, MeiLing.

The point is that saamuur as diamond is not mentioned in the version I use (it's getting urgent for me to check and look for a better version of E-Lisaan).

Once again thank you.


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## Qcumber

Thanks a lot, Meiling and Tajabone.
Perhaps, the etymon is masmira(t) مسمرة
 
Cf. the theme maf3ila(t) مَفْعِلَةٌ .
I still stick to my hypothesis the term was brought by Arab-speaking people in the 15th century or earlier.


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## Tajabone

I also think that there's a plausible semantic and morphological link.


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## MeiLing

It is very hard to prove anything due to the absence of any solid information or bases to your hypothesis!


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## Qcumber

MeiLing said:


> It is very hard to prove anything due to the absence of any solid information or bases to your hypothesis!


Do you mean that masmira(t) مسمرة
based on the theme maf3ila(t) مَفْعِلَةٌ  is not a good start?


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## MeiLing

Yes, Qcumber. That is what I mean.  
You see... what counts here is the existence of some sort of a relationship between this word (مَسْمـِرَة) and any root in the Arabic language. Such a relationship should be established first, then we may derive (نَشْتـَقّ) other forms from it, whatever they be... not the other way round!


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## Qcumber

MeiLing, given the root s*mr **z°~ **and the theme *maf3ila(t) مَفْعِلَةٌ*[**maf¿ila**], can you state any rule that would prevent theorizing that the term *masmira(t) ةz°€¯ [masmira]* may have existed at some time and in some variety of spoken Arabic? *


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## MeiLing

Hello Qcumber.
In fact I don't know any rules that would prevent such a theory. 
I understand, from your first post above, that the word مـَسـْمـِرَة is not a modern word:



> I suppose it was used by Arab / Muslim traders instead of saamuur ر½¯\~ [sa:mu:r] “diamond” several centuries ago.


and not being mentioned in both classical and modern dictionaries makes me doubt of its Arabic origin; though it is not impossible of course to be so. But due to the absence of any solid information or bases to your hypothesis, I still think it is very hard to prove anything in this regard.
I suggest that you put your question in the ‘Other Languages’ forum. You may get an answer there. 
Good luck!


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## Qcumber

MeiLing said:


> [not in] classical and modern dictionaries makes me doubt of its Arabic origin


What is the oldest dictionary you used? Do you have dialectal dictionaries of Persian Gulf Arabics?


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## MeiLing

Hello again, Qcumber. 
As you may very well know, I have not, of course, looked in all Arabic dictionaries; I have only looked in seven of them. So in case you find the word مسميرة in any dictionary, I highly appreciate your writing about it under this thread.
Thank you!


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## Qcumber

MeiLing said:


> I have only looked in seven of them.


Hello, Meiling, it's a lot! What is the oldest dictionary you used. Its date?


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## MeiLing

The oldest dictionary that I’ve used is Lisaan Al-Arab, (Ibn Manzhoor, 1232-1311)


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