# Bosnian (BCS):  "Five apples were yellow" (agreement)



## musicalchef

Zdravo,

This may be a dumb question, sorry!  

I learned that nouns modified by a number other than (or ending in other than) 1-4 should be in the genitive plural.  Would a *predicative* adjective also be in the genitive plural or would it agree with the noun's nominative case?  I know that the adjective would agree with the noun in case if it were to precede the noun, but wasn't sure about the predicative.

For example:  "Five apples were yellow." (I have to translate it for my "homework")

"Pet jabuka je bilo žutih" (both GPl)
"Pet jabuka je bilo žute" (predicative adj in NPl)

I feel *pretty sure* that it is the first, but just wanted to be sure.


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## sokol

I agree that also a predicative adjective should be in gen. plural. But wait for native speakers to confirm.


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## phosphore

I am not sure about the rule, but I do not think I would ever say either "pet jabuka je bilo žutih" or "pet jabuka je bilo žute"; however, the former could be (and I think it is, since "bilo je pet žutih jabuka" is and I think this sentence is same, its elements are just ordered differently) a grammatically correct sentence, while the latter certainly is not. The other possible version, apart from "bilo je pet žutih jabuka", is "pet jabuka je bilo žuto"; which one to use depends on what you want to say: if you mean that there were some more than five apples but five of them were yellow, you can say either one of these two and there is no much difference; if you mean that there were five apples (and no more than five) with a particular feature and that is their colour, you can say only "bilo je pet žutih jabuka".

Having seen only "five apples were yellow", I would translate it as "pet jabuka je bilo žuto".


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## musicalchef

The whole sentence I was supposed to translate was:  "A hundred and forty four apples were red, and five were yellow."

Which complicates it as well, since the subject is actually absent from the second clause, and the first clause uses the counting form.  So I suppose we could get into that too while we're at it!

Here is my guess:  "Stotinu četrdeset četiri jabuke su bile crvene i pet je bilo žutih."

It's a weird sentence even in English (I would say "There were 144 red apples and five yellow ones"),  but I guess the book wants us to translate it in this way for practice.


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## phosphore

Though your sentence is correct (excepting "su bile" instead of "bile su" or "četiri su jabuke bile"), I would translate it as "sto četrdeset (i) četiri jabuke bile su crvene, njih pet su bile žute", since it seems to me to be closer to the original sentence.

I must say that your question is not dumb at all, since the numbers agreement is really a problem even for native speakers.


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> I must say that your question is not dumb at all, since the numbers agreement is really a problem even for native speakers.



I'd second that; verb-subject agreement can be very tough and unintuitive, especially in the cases like yours, involving plurals of countable nouns. 

Here you have two options: neutrum nominative singular (...*je* *bilo žuto*) and feminine genitive nominative plural; however, in the latter case, you must match the verb as well: (...*su bile žute*).

I cannot really explain why the first option is applicable and sounds more natural than the second, though. The point is that the five yellow apples are taken as a collectivity, i.e. a set, to which yellowness applies. But then, "je bilo žuto" would be applicable only if there were more than 4 apples... It's a really difficult point to grasp though; not exactly for the learners' book.


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## musicalchef

So "je bilo žutih" is out then?


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## Duya

musicalchef said:


> So "je bilo žutih" is out then?



It's out, in my opinion. 

There is the difference when the adjective is predicative, as in your case, and a noun modifier. 

When a copula is involved, as in this case, the sentence must take form:

<Nominative> <is/are> <nominative>.

...and they must be in the same gender and number.

Apples are yellow <-> Jabuke(N, pl, f.) su žute(N, pl. f.).

When the adjective is part of the noun phrase, though, it must also follow the number-noun agreement, and agree with the noun in case, gender and number: 

Four yellow apples <-> Četiri žute(gen, sg, f.) jabuke(gen, sg, f.).
Five yellow apples <-> Pet žutih(gen, pl, f.) jabuka(gen, pl, f.)

(I edited my post above for a typo... or rather, thinko.)


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## musicalchef

Ok, thanks!  It's so confusing that the verbs change for the numbers too, but that's another topic and just something else I need to memorize!  Yes, the book did say that it needs to be "je bilo" and not "su bile" because of the number (the second clause).



phosphore said:


> Though your sentence is correct (excepting "su bile" instead of "bile su" or "četiri su jabuke bile"), I would translate it as "sto četrdeset (i) četiri jabuke bile su crvene, njih pet su bile žute", since it seems to me to be closer to the original sentence.



I'm sorry, can you please explain why I can't say "Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke *su bile* crvene?  Hvala!  I'm having a hard time understanding which word order "rules" are actually rules.


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## Duya

musicalchef said:


> I'm sorry, can you please explain why I can't say "Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke *su bile* crvene?  Hvala!  I'm having a hard time understanding which word order "rules" are actually rules.



You can (in my opinion). Both forms are valid.

It's possible that some textbooks recommend "bile su" to "su bile" in such positions, but on purely stylistic (nitpicking) grounds. Maybe dudasd will have something to say on the subject, she's a professional lector after all.


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## phosphore

musicalchef said:


> I'm sorry, can you please explain why I can't say "Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke *su bile* crvene? Hvala! I'm having a hard time understanding which word order "rules" are actually rules.


 
It is because of the accent: "su" does not have one, it is an enclitic, so it has to be before the word it is grouped with; in this case, while it cannot be in a group with "sto četrdeset četiri jabuke" (since it is a complete rythmic group from the phonetic aspect), it has to be either "bile su" or "četiri su jabuke bile". The rule is that an enclitic cannot be in the position after a speech pause, which occur after three or more words grouped together, for example.


To me "pet je bilo žutih" does not seem incorrect, it just sound like an answer to the question "koliko je bilo žutih jabuka?", which is correct.


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## dudasd

Not a dumb question, musicalchef; there are several possible ways to translate this sentence. Let's go step by step:

1) If you had to say: "a hundred and forty four red apples, and 5 yellow (apples)", then you could apply the rule you mentioned ("nouns modified by a number other than (or ending in other than) 1-4 should be in the genitive plural"): _sto četrdeset četiri crvene jabuke i pet žutih._

2) If you wanted to say: "There were a hundred and forty four red apples, and 5 yellow (apples)", you would apply the same rule: _*Bilo je sto četrdeset i četiri crvene jabuke(,) i pet žutih.*_ (If both numbers required the same noun case - let's say that there were 155 red aples - the more preferrable translation would be: _Bilo je sto četrdeset pet crvenih, i pet žutih jabuka_.) This translation covers the meaning of the sentence you have to translate, but gramatically it's not the same, and probably not what your teachers expect from you.

3) What you actually have to say is "A hundred and forty four apples were red, and five were yellow." So, the subject of the sentence is "apples". Now, this is what the rule about numbers says (I am taking examples from I. Klajn, Rečnik jezičkih nedoumica, BROJEVI):

-With numbers ending with _one_, both the noun and the verb are used in singular: "Javio se trideset jedan kandidat", "Prošla je sto jedna godina". 
-With numbers ending with _two_, _three_, _four_, both the noun and the verb are in dual form: "Javila su se trideset tri kandidata", "Prošle su sto dve godine".
- With numbers ending with _five and more_, the verb is in _neutrum_, and the verb is in _genitive of plural_: "Javilo se trideset sedam kandidata", "Tih pet godina brzo je prošlo".

4) "It's not a mistake", says Klajn, "if the gender and number of the verb are in congruention with the subject: 'Tih pet godina brzo su prošle", 'Primljeni su svih 29 pripravnika'." So in theory you could say: *"Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke bile su crvene, a pet žute." *(The same refers to the case given in 2) - you could also say: "Bile su sto četrdeset četiri crvene jabuke, i pet žutih.")

But as you can see, this last refers to more defined subjects ("Those five years..." "All 29..."). That's why I suggest you to construct the sentence according to the rules given in 3) - that seems to be the safest way: "Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke bile su crvene, a pet je bilo žuto."

(Or you can choose a funny solution and trick your teachers - saying: "Sto četrdeset četiri jabuke bilo je crvene, a pet žute boje."  But I don't suggest you to do that.)


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## Duya

Thanks Duda. I know our mother tongue is complicated, but sometimes even I get surprised at it... Not that I'd get any of those examples wrong, but it's an entirely different thing to explain why is it so...


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## musicalchef

Thanks!  

The problem is I don't have teachers; I'm using the textbooks on my own and there is no answer key for the homework assignments, so that's why I'm always on here!


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