# Name



## piloya

> Lassen Sie mich bitte den Name*n *meines neuen Ansprechpartners wissen


 
Hello, 
my question here is about the word " _Namen_". "_den Namen_" here is Akkusativ, right? why does "_Name_" take an "n" ? is it an exception?

Thanks.
Piloya


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## Jana337

Yes, exactly, an exception.
Other and similar exceptions would be der Student, das Herz, der Herr, der Affe and many more.
They typically have -(e)n in some cases. However, I am not able to trace a general pattern.

der Name
des Namens
dem Namen
den Namen

die Namen
der Namen
den Namen
die Namen

das Herz
des Herzens
dem Herzen
das Herz

die Herzen
der Herzen
den Herzen
die Herzen

der Affe
des Affen
dem Affen
den Affen

die Affen
der Affen
den Affen
die Affen

der Student
des Studenten
dem Studenten
den Studenten

die Studenten
der Studenten
den Studenten
die Studenten

der Herr
des Herrn
dem Herrn
den Herrn

die Herren
der Herren
den Herren
die Herren

Jana


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## c-m-p

You also could do it like a Rheinländer (Cologne) ... then you only have to use "dat"

dat Jana
(von) dat Jana
dat Jana
dat Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Yes, exactly, an exception.
> Other and similar exceptions would be der Student, das Herz, der Herr, der Affe and many more.
> They typically have -(e)n in some cases. However, I am not able to trace a general pattern.



I want to add Mensch, Duden   (of course, it has an -n at the end) and some words with -er in the nominative case. But they're really an exception.


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## piloya

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I want to add Mensch, Duden  (of course, it has an -n at the end) and some words with -er in the nominative case. But they're really an exception.


thanks, I have learnt a little bit more today.
I like the Rheinland dialect  .


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## gaer

Jana (and all),

There are a lot of different things going on here.

I was taught a class of masculine nouns described as "n" nouns". Such nouns always add either "n" or "en" except in nominative singular. I think there are a surprising number of animals that fall into this group, but please check to see that I have not mixed it up. Perhaps you could add some more.

Animals:

1) der Affe, der Bulle, der Löwe, der Falke, der Bulle
2) der Elefant, (I'm almost sure there are others, aren't there?)

People: 

der Junge, der Mensch, der Student, der *Herr (but des **Herrn*, I think).

Thus you can do this:

der Junge, Mensch, Löwe, etc.
die Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
dem Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
den Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
des Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.

So for me, THESE are the exceptions:

1) der Name (because it is "des Namens", adding "s")
2) das Herz (because it also is "des Herzens" and is neuter, so it's really weird.)

der Name, *das* Herz
die Namen, Herzen
dem Namen, Herzen
den Namen, Herzen
des *Namens*, *Herzens*

You can completely fill out all four cases as well as singular and plural, but that was the easiest way for me to remember them!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

Well, Gaer, how long have you not been in school? What an enormous memory you must have. There's nothing to be added, and everything's all right. Except one example:



> 1) der Affe, der Bulle, der Löwe, der Falke, der Bulle


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Well, Gaer, how long have you not been in school? What an enormous memory you must have. There's nothing to be added, and everything's all right. Except one example:


Oh?

*Löwe,* der; -n, -n 

*Bulle*, der; -n, -n   *1.* _männliches Tier bei Rindern, Großwild_: ein mächtiger, starker B *...* 

If you say I'm wrong, I believe you. Is the entry wrong? Did I misread it?

Südländisch glitzerte die metallene Skulptur des *Bullen* und des Bären. (Quelle: _Die Welt Online_) 

It certainly seems to add "n" as the others do.  

The last time I was in a class was 1989. 

Gaer


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## piloya

gaer said:
			
		

> Oh?
> 
> *Bulle*, der; -n, -n *1.* _männliches Tier bei Rindern, Großwild_: ein mächtiger, starker B *...*
> 
> If you say I'm wrong, I believe you. Is the entry wrong? Did I misread it?


 
Gaer, 
Who just crossed _der Bulle_ out because it was twice in your list. He left the other, wasn't it so Who?


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## gaer

piloya said:
			
		

> Gaer,
> Who just crossed _der Bulle_ out because it was twice in your list. He left the other, wasn't it so Who?


OH! Duh!!!  

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> OH! Duh!!!
> 
> Gaer



Yes, you just misread my post. BTW, what is "Duh?"


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Yes, you just misread my post. BTW, what is "Duh?"


I don't know if I can explain it!

You say that when someone has said something or done something REALLY stupid. It was aimed at myself. Sort of like:

"Talk about being clueless, how could I have missed that?"  

(It's used a lot in "blond jokes".)

But seriously, I had hoped people would add more words to me list, especially of animals that are part of the form.

For instance I had left out "der Bär", another one I think that always adds "en". But that's only two, Elefant and Bär, and I'm sure there are others. Not very important, I was just curious.

Also, are there any other words like "Name, Herz" that are exceptions?

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I don't know if I can explain it!
> 
> You say that when someone has said something or done something REALLY stupid. It was aimed at myself. Sort of like:
> 
> "Talk about being clueless, how could I have missed that?"
> 
> (It's used a lot in "blond jokes".)
> 
> But seriously, I had hoped people would add more words to me list, especially of animals that are part of the form.
> 
> For instance I had left out "der Bär", another one I think that always adds "en". But that's only two, Elefant and Bär, and I'm sure there are others. Not very important, I was just curious.
> 
> Also, are there any other words like "Name, Herz" that are exceptions?
> 
> Gaer



First of all, thanks for the explanation of the word "Duh".

Second, I really don't know. I'm not a German learner, since it is my mother tongue. But if I come across such exceptions or words that add "-(e)n" in all cases, I'll come back to our discussion.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> First of all, thanks for the explanation of the word "Duh".
> 
> Second, I really don't know. I'm not a German learner, since it is my mother tongue. But if I come across such exceptions or words that add "-(e)n" in all cases, I'll come back to our discussion.


That's great, but I'd be especially interested in other words that add (e)ns in genitive. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> That's great, but I'd be especially interested in other words that add (e)ns in genitive.
> 
> Gaer



Yes, as I said, I will send you or post some of them if I come across with them.


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## elroy

Most masculine words ending in -er, -ist, and -ent fall into this category.

I don't know of any other words that add -s in the genitive.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Most masculine words ending in -er, -ist, and -ent fall into this category.
> 
> I don't know of any other words that add -s in the genitive.


I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Could you give some examples of what you're talking about? I'm lost. 

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Could you give some examples of what you're talking about? I'm lost.
> 
> Gaer


I think elroy refers to words such as
der Spezial*ist* (des Spezialist*en*, dem Spezialist*en*, den Spezialist*en*)
der Dirig*ent* (des Dirigent*en*, dem Dirigent*en*, den Dirigent*en*)
Neither of those (is that correct English?--it sounds a bit strange to me) has an additional -*s* in the genitive as in "des Nam*ens*". But as for -*er* I'm lost, too.

Ralf


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## elroy

Ralf said:
			
		

> I think elroy refers to words such as
> der Spezial*ist* (des Spezialist*en*, dem Spezialist*en*, den Spezialist*en*)
> der Dirig*ent* (des Dirigent*en*, dem Dirigent*en*, den Dirigent*en*)
> Neither of those (is that correct English?--it sounds a bit strange to me) has an additional -*s* in the genitive as in "des Nam*ens*". But as for -*er* I'm lost, too.
> 
> Ralf



Yes, that is what I meant.  Sorry, I meant -e, not -er.  Many masculine nouns ending in -e fall into this category.

Here is a helpful explanation. According to the article, there are apparently eight masculine nouns that take -ns in the genitive.  I could only find seven in the glossary: der Buchstabe, der Friede, der Funke, der Glaube, der Name, der Same, and der Wille.  The eighth one could be das Herz, but that is not masculine.


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## enzodava

elroy,

Thanks for the article reference--very helpful. In looking at that list, several of the words ending with -e are actually adjectives used as nouns (der Bekannte, der Verwandte, der Gefangene, der Gelehrte...). Thus, the rules governing the endings for this group are the same as those governing all adjectives.  While this fact does not really change our discussion here, it does impact the endings when these nouns are not preceded by the definite article. For example:

In the nominative: der Bekannte BUT ein Bekannter

Also, we should add to the list of masculine nouns (real nouns, not adjectives) Fotograf and Philosoph


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## Ralf

Another interesting, if not tricky, word to be added to the previously mentioned examples is "der Drache" (des Drachen/dem Drachen/den Drachen) (=dragon). I labeled it as tricky since it is frequently confused with "der Drachen" (des Drach*ens*, dem Drachen, den Drachen) (=kite).

Ralf


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> I think elroy refers to words such as
> der Spezial*ist* (des Spezialist*en*, dem Spezialist*en*, den Spezialist*en*)
> der Dirig*ent* (des Dirigent*en*, dem Dirigent*en*, den Dirigent*en*)
> Neither of those (is that correct English?--it sounds a bit strange to me) has an additional -*s* in the genitive as in "des Nam*ens*". But as for -*er* I'm lost, too.
> 
> Ralf


Thanks, Ralf. 

Gaer


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry, I meant -e, not -er. Many masculine nouns ending in -e fall into this category.
> 
> Here is a helpful explanation. According to the article, there are apparently eight masculine nouns that take -ns in the genitive. I could only find seven in the glossary: der Buchstabe, der Friede, der Funke, der Glaube, der Name, der Same, and der Wille. The eighth one could be das Herz, but that is not masculine.


Thank you Elroy!

The only problem is this d--- site is in a stupid font that is unreadable for me, which is why I avoid it. The only way I can read the info on it is to paste it to another window.

I wish many migraines on all the people who construct sites for people who have monitors using 800 x600 res.

But I did paste it, and I got the same results, only 7 masculine exceptions. Did you know all of them? 

Gaer


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Another interesting, if not tricky, word to be added to the previously mentioned examples is "der Drache" (des Drachen/dem Drachen/den Drachen) (=dragon). I labeled it as tricky since it is frequently confused with "der Drachen" (des Drach*ens*, dem Drachen, den Drachen) (=kite).
> 
> Ralf


That's HARD! So if I saw "des Drachens", I would immediately know that it is a kite and not a dragon. But in accusative and dative I would only know from context, right?  

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> That's HARD! So if I saw "des Drachens", I would immediately know that it is a kite and not a dragon. But in accusative and dative I would only know from context, right?
> 
> Gaer


Exactly. But even in genitive it is better to know about the context as well, since both words are frequently mixed up. Although I didn't take my time to google for some confirmative numbers I'm tempted to claim that you'll find as a German translation for the Chinese Year of the Dragon the correct "Jahr des Drachen" as well as "Jahr des Drachens". The problem is that the second phrase doesn't sound wrong in the first place at all.

Ralf


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## Jana337

Ralf said:
			
		

> Exactly. But even in genitive it is better to know about the context as well, since both words are frequently mixed up. Although I didn't take my time to google for some confirmative numbers I'm tempted to claim that you'll find as a German translation for the Chinese Year of the Dragon the correct "Jahr des Drachen" as well as "Jahr des Drachens". The problem is that the second phrase doesn't sound wrong in the first place at all.
> 
> Ralf



Not bad:
Jahr des Drachen - 19700
Jahr des Drachens - 513 (but some interesting hits, indeed - the Chinese embassy for instance )

Jana


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> Thank you Elroy!
> 
> The only problem is this d--- site is in a stupid font that is unreadable for me, which is why I avoid it. The only way I can read the info on it is to paste it to another window.
> 
> I wish many migraines on all the people who construct sites for people who have monitors using 800 x600 res.
> 
> But I did paste it, and I got the same results, only 7 masculine exceptions. Did you know all of them?
> 
> Gaer



Nope, I didn't know all of them.  I guess the 8th one is still a mystery then, huh?


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Nope, I didn't know all of them. I guess the 8th one is still a mystery then, huh?


Yes.  

Gaer


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## gaer

enzodava said:
			
		

> elroy,
> 
> Thanks for the article reference--very helpful. In looking at that list, several of the words ending with -e are actually adjectives used as nouns (der Bekannte, der Verwandte, der Gefangene, der Gelehrte...). Thus, the rules governing the endings for this group are the same as those governing all adjectives. While this fact does not really change our discussion here, it does impact the endings when these nouns are not preceded by the definite article. For example:
> 
> In the nominative: der Bekannte BUT ein Bekannter
> 
> Also, we should add to the list of masculine nouns (real nouns, not adjectives) Fotograf and Philosoph


And why, do you think, is it not "Filosof"?  

At any rate, there seems at least to be a pattern for words that end with "f/ph". I wonder how many more like THOSE exist?  

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Jana (and all),
> 
> There are a lot of different things going on here.
> 
> I was taught a class of masculine nouns described as "n" nouns". Such nouns always add either "n" or "en" except in nominative singular. I think there are a surprising number of animals that fall into this group, but please check to see that I have not mixed it up. Perhaps you could add some more.
> 
> Animals:
> 
> 1) der Affe, der Bulle, der Löwe, der Falke, der Bulle
> 2) der Elefant, (I'm almost sure there are others, aren't there?)
> 
> People:
> 
> der Junge, der Mensch, der Student, der *Herr (but des **Herrn*, I think).
> 
> Thus you can do this:
> 
> der Junge, Mensch, Löwe, etc.
> die Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
> dem Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
> den Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
> des Jungen, Menschen, Löwen, etc.
> 
> So for me, THESE are the exceptions:
> 
> 1) der Name (because it is "des Namens", adding "s")
> 2) das Herz (because it also is "des Herzens" and is neuter, so it's really weird.)
> 
> der Name, *das* Herz
> die Namen, Herzen
> dem Namen, Herzen
> den Namen, Herzen
> des *Namens*, *Herzens*
> 
> You can completely fill out all four cases as well as singular and plural, but that was the easiest way for me to remember them!
> 
> Gaer


 
I've have just seen this thread - it's a few weeks old already, but I wanted to add, that Gaer is right here:

"n"-nouns take -(e)n in all cases except for the nominative singular -> AND:
ONLY masculine nouns can take the n-declension.

"Name" is _not_ an exception, and neither is Bär:

They're both n-nouns, so they both take -(e)n in all cases except the nominative singular:

der Name, Bär
des Namen, Bären
dem Namen, Bären
den Namen, Bären

die Namen, Bären
der Namen, Bären
den Namen, Bären
die Namen, Bären


The reason there are forms like "des Namens" or "des Bär(en)s" is that they are used incorrectly but so common, that they made their way even into the written language and no one really notices. So I think, it might even be correct for the Duden some time... .
(Which is again, what I don't like about Duden: It refuses to accept dative constructions in some cases, even though their very common).


"das Herz" btw is a real exception - maybe it took the n-declension in former times and then added an -s in the genitive for some reason...


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