# süße, verrückte Worte, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln  (Trakl)



## Löwenfrau

Hello!

I'd like to discuss these adjectives:

“... Menschen, die zierlich galant, voll rhythmischer Bewegungen unter seinem Blätterdache dahinwandelten, die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln.”

"... whispering kind/sweet and inebriated words, with a charming promising smile." ?

Thanks!


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## Jason_2_toi

Inebriated is no doubt intended in a figurative sense, but the reader will see it as literal. Intoxicated might fit better.

süß sweet
verrückt mad


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## Löwenfrau

Jason_2_toi said:


> Inebriated is no doubt intended in a figurative sense, but the reader will see it as literal. Intoxicated might fit better.
> 
> süß sweet
> verrückt mad



Yes; I was thinking in Portuguese (again).

And what about "feinem verheißenden Lächeln"?


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> And what about "feinem verheißenden Lächeln"?


 
Interesting! I'd say that's a mistake in declension. You can say "mit eine*m* feine*n* verheißende*n* Lächeln" or "mit feine*m* verheißende*m* Lächeln".
I read it as "with a subtle and promising smile", but "verheißend" also holds connotations of suggestive and allusive at the same time.

PS: besotted! 
That's the word I had at the tip of my tongue since the moment I read your thread, but it just wouldn't materialize into an actual specific thought or word. 'Besotted' is a good word for 'verrueckt' in this context and it's equivalent to your "inebriated".


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> Interesting! I'd say that's a mistake in declension. You can say "mit eine*m* feine*n* verheißende*n* Lächeln" or "mit feine*m* verheißende*m* Lächeln".
> I read it as "with a subtle and promising smile", but "verheißend" also holds connotations of suggestive and allusive at the same time.



That is a tough one. Couldn't "fein" mean "mild" here?

I thought of "suggestive" but I think "promising" is more poetic, indeed.

EDIT: @manfy Actually, in Portuguese "promising" doesn't sound well. You think I could interpret "verheißenden" as "ahnungsvoll"?


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## dmz11

Löwenfrau said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'd like to discuss these adjectives:
> 
> “... Menschen, die zierlich galant, voll rhythmischer Bewegungen unter seinem Blätterdache dahinwandelten, die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln.”
> 
> "... whispering kind/sweet and inebriated words, with a charming promising smile." ?
> 
> Thanks!




Hi Loewenfrau, 

I would suggest: whispering sweet, mad words with subtle, promising smiles. 

I would make smiles plural, too, based on the context: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/dichtungen-und-briefe-5444/1


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## Löwenfrau

dmz11 said:


> I would make smiles plural, too, based on the context: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/dichtungen-und-briefe-5444/1



It sounds good.

Another idea would be "subtly promising smile"... wouldn't it?


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## dmz11

Yes, but the current trend in English writing is to avoid adverbs, so for that and other reasons (sound, very subtle rhythmic difference), I would choose "subtle" over "subtly." Also, looking at the German, it seems to me that "feinem" (or should it be feinen?) is modifying Laecheln. But you're better off asking a native German speaker about that. I think both choices give the same sense, though.

Interesting source text. : )


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> Couldn't "fein" mean "mild" here?


Yes, that's possible. I read "feines Lächeln" as the opposite of "grobes Lachen" with "grob" in the sense of crude, loud, aggressive. So, any semantic opposite should be fine. "Mildes Lächeln" does not work in German because of its condescending primary connotation, but "sanftes Lächeln" is good.



Löwenfrau said:


> You think I could interpret "verheißenden" as "ahnungsvoll"?


No, that goes in the wrong direction. Duden lists following synonyms for 'verheißungsvoll':
_attraktiv, aussichtsreich, Erfolg versprechend, erstrebenswert, hoffnungsvoll, interessant, lohnend, reizvoll, vielversprechend, zugkräftig, zukunftsträchtig; (gehoben) verlockend
_
I think, _aussichtsreich, vielversprechend _and_ verlockend_ are the most suitable synonyms for _verheißend_ in this context. 

I agree with dmz, plural 'smiles' sounds better in English; in German we just never use plural for "Lächeln". But I still don't like the literal 'mad' for 'verrückt'. Mad is too close to clinically insane for my taste, and the context in the German version suppresses this meaning of 'verrückt'. But 'crazy, fantastic, ...and besotted' works for me. I don't know why, but I like the ring of besotted.


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## perpend

Erm...I'm late to the plate, and you will all think I'm crazy. 

Just my brainstorm: ... whispering cute, fantastical words with a delicately promising smile

That's how the scene goes in my imagination.

I would agree with manfy that "besotted" is fitting too. I see just now that manfy also referred to "fantastic".

 (delicately promising smile(y))


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## manfy

"Delicate smile" works very well, too! But I'd still go with the adjective and plural: "... with delicate, promising smiles". It's semantically closer to the German version.


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## perpend

I agree that the plural sounds nice, and I was contemplating the comma, no comma (and the choice of delicately/delicate), but when you wrote it that way, manfy, it flows well: ... _with delicate, promising smiles_


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## dmz11

Yeah, I agree, delicate or subtle are the best choices here for this context. Mild has too much of a tepid/lukewarm connotation for the context, which is about seductive interplay under the trees in a park - so you've got the undertone of intensity layered with the subtle suggestiveness of mutual seduction.

If you use "delicate" for "fein," though, you'll have to choose some other word for zierlich, which is often translated as delicate. (But that's a different thread.)

In favor of "mad," I think it's totally appropriate for the romantic context. It can have madhouse associations, but it doesn't always ("insane" has more of that effect on me). And "mad" has a long history of association with romance in English literature and poetry, so the use of that word conjures up a rich fabric of literary associations (Shakespeare, etc.).

On that note, I think it would be useful for everyone to see the fuller context:

Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, an Menschen, die zierlich galant voll rhythmischer Bewegungen unter seinem Blätterdache dahinwandelten, die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln.


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## perpend

The thread is, however, from Löwenfrau.

The original post is from LW.


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## dmz11

perpend said:


> The thread is, however, from Löwenfrau.
> 
> The original post is from LW.



Yeah, I was referring to #2 under the forum rules - that's all.


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## Kajjo

_die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln
whispering sweet, crazy words with a subtle smile full of promise_


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> No, that goes in the wrong direction. Duden lists following synonyms for 'verheißungsvoll':
> _attraktiv, aussichtsreich, Erfolg versprechend, erstrebenswert, hoffnungsvoll, interessant, lohnend, reizvoll, vielversprechend, zugkräftig, zukunftsträchtig; (gehoben) verlockend_



But "hoffnungsvoll" is very close to "ahnungsvoll"... In Romanticism, there is a strong association between "Hoffnung" and "Ahnung", one feeling leading to the other... Trakl is a late romantic, without Hoffnung, and in this context he is picturing romantic people on a romantic time and place...



dmz11 said:


> If you use "delicate" for "fein," though, you'll have to choose some other word for zierlich, which is often translated as delicate. (But that's a different thread.)



For "zierlich" I choosed "with grace".



Kajjo said:


> die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln
> whispering sweet, crazy words with a subtle smile full of promise



I like "full of promises".


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> But "hoffnungsvoll" is very close to "ahnungsvoll"... In Romanticism, there is a strong association between "Hoffnung" and "Ahnung", one feeling leading to the other... Trakl is a late romantic, without Hoffnung, and in this context he is picturing romantic people on a romantic time and place...


 
 Now you're trying to negotiate your way into the meaning of "ahnungsvoll".
I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. If it did, somebody could argue that "attraktiv" is synonymous to "verheißungsvoll", and "hübsch" is synonymous to "attraktiv", hence the logical but erroneous conclusion "verheißungsvoll = hübsch".

I'm sure you can find contexts and sentences where "verheißungsvoll" and "ahnungsvoll" might be very close in their ultimate expressed meaning, but the OP is not one of them. I've been looking at the sentence from a German perspective and my immediate feeling tells me, it doesn't fit. "verheißend" goes in the direction of promising, suggesting something, "ahnend" turns this around into expecting, anticipating something.
"Hoffnungsvoll" can have 2 distinctive meanings: "Hoffnung spendend" and "Hoffnung habend" and in the OP as synonym to "verheißend" it reflects the former.


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> Now you're trying to negotiate your way into the meaning of "ahnungsvoll".
> I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. If it did, somebody could argue that "attraktiv" is synonymous to "verheißungsvoll", and "hübsch" is synonymous to "attraktiv", hence the logical but erroneous conclusion "verheißungsvoll = hübsch".
> 
> I'm sure you can find contexts and sentences where "verheißungsvoll" and "ahnungsvoll" might be very close in their ultimate expressed meaning, but the OP is not one of them. I've been looking at the sentence from a German perspective and my immediate feeling tells me, it doesn't fit. "verheißend" goes in the direction of promising, suggesting something, "ahnend" turns this around into expecting, anticipating something.
> "Hoffnungsvoll" can have 2 distinctive meanings: "Hoffnung spendend" and "Hoffnung habend" and in the OP as synonym to "verheißend" it reflects the former.



That's why I hear natives as many times as necessary...


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## perpend

Wie das damals mit Trakl war, in seinem Hirn, in dem Kontext---kann man das überhaupt wieder zum Vorschein bringen, LW?


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## bearded

perpend said:


> Wie das damals mit Trakl war, in seinem Hirn, in dem Kontext---kann man das überhaupt wieder zum Vorschein bringen, LW?


Not to be polemic, perpend, but based on your sceptical/pessimistic remark one should never try to translate old/ancient/poetic texts...
I find that 'promising' is a fairly good translation of _verheißend._
Im Text steht doch 'verheißend', nicht 'verheißungsvoll'.


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## perpend

bearded man said:


> ... one should never try to translate old/ancient/poetic texts...
> I find that 'promising' is a fairly good translation of _verheißend._


Toi, toi, toi.


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## Löwenfrau

bearded man said:


> I find that 'promising' is a fairly good translation of _verheißend._
> Im Text steht doch 'verheißend', nicht 'verheißungsvoll'.



Unortunately, in Portuguese the literal equivalent for 'verheißend'/'promising' doesn't sound good at all. Which is all the more important in a poetic text. The important difference to me seems to be the difference in degree, 'verheißungsvoll' being stronger than 'verheißend'. Maybe I could think of "smiles with an air of promise" - not stronger than 'verheißend'...

EDIT: But 'verheißungsvoll' wouldn't contradict Trakl's style:

"Manchmal aber erwacht der Park aus schweren Träumen. Dann strömt er ein Erinnern aus an kühle Sternennächte, an tief verborgene heimliche Stellen, da er fiebernde Küsse und Umarmungen belauschte, an Sommernächte, voll glühender Pracht und Herrlichkeit, da der Mond wirre Bilder auf den schwarzen Grund zauberte, an Menschen, die zierlich galant, voll rhythmischer Bewegungen unter seinem Blätterdache dahinwandelten, die sich süße, verrückte Worte zuraunten, mit feinem verheißenden Lächeln."

Maybe he just wanted to avoy repeating the word for the third time...


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> EDIT: But 'verheißungsvoll' wouldn't contradict Trakl's style:



That's true. In normal modern language I wouldn't detect much of difference in meaning between 'verheißungsvoll' and 'verheißend'. The adjective sounds more common these days.

But when you dig into the finer details, it seems that the adjective expresses more of a static attribute and the present participle as adjective conveys the idea of proactive action -- or maybe I'm just reading too much into it... 

But how that translates into Portuguese ... you're the expert! Use your gut feeling


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## bearded

Hi LF
I like your 'with an air of promise'.
Originally, I also understood - as you do
_verheißend = _promising - even if you make a few promises 
_verheißungsvoll = _full of promises, promising everything.
But apparently in the current language this is not/no longer true, as manfy says.


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## Löwenfrau

bearded man said:


> Hi LF
> I like your 'with an air of promise'.
> Originally, I also understood - as you do
> _verheißend = _promising - even if you make a few promises
> _verheißungsvoll = _full of promises, promising everything.
> But apparently in the current language this is not/no longer true, as manfy says.



But what about Trakl's time current language?


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## Kajjo

I believe, in Trakls time "verheißend" had the same meaning than "verheißungsvoll" today. He just meant people smiling at each other full of promise ... i.e. in the erotic sense.


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## Löwenfrau

Kajjo said:


> I believe, in Trakls time "verheißend" had the same meaning than "verheißungsvoll" today. He just meant people smiling at each other full of promise ... i.e. in the erotic sense.


I can follow that. A smile full of promises or with an air of promise is something seductive...


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## Löwenfrau

@manfy:


manfy said:


> besotted!
> That's the word I had at the tip of my tongue since the moment I read your thread, but it just wouldn't materialize into an actual specific thought or word. 'Besotted' is a good word for 'verrueckt' in this context and it's equivalent to your "inebriated".



Someone suggested "confused", Port. "confuso". But I don't know whether this captures all the meaning of "besotted". On the other hand, the equivalent for "besotted" in Portuguese doesn't sound good in this context: "abobado"; because that can sound like "retarded", "stupid". I'm still inclined towards "inebriated", port. "inebriado": it sounds like "drunk" but not in the sense of an alcoholic drink, rather in the sense of a scentful flower. And it sounds poetic...


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## manfy

Besotted is the word I'd use in English, because that's the word that fits to my mental image that Trakl is painting with his German words. You should try to find a word that does the same for a native Portuguese speaker, and the way you explain it, the Portuguese version of 'inebriated' seems ideal. "Confused" does not sound right, it adds a feeling of negativity and uncertainty that does not exist with "verrückt" in this context.

I'm not a fan of overly literal translations of poetry, simply because if I were to read German poetry in an overly literal way, the whole thing might become nonsensical and it would lose much of its intended meaning and beauty.

PS: Out of curiosity I looked up inebriado, confuso, abobado in google's Portuguese-German translator. The first word for inebriado is berauscht, which is a perfect fit for my mental picture (as opposed to the second meaning 'betrunken'). All translations for the other words are off, or at least not quite right.


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## Löwenfrau

manfy said:


> Besotted is the word I'd use in English, because that's the word that fits to my mental image that Trakl is painting with his German words. You should try to find a word that does the same for a native Portuguese speaker, and the way you explain it, the Portuguese version of 'inebriated' seems ideal. "Confused" does not sound right, it adds a feeling of negativity and uncertainty that does not exist with "verrückt" in this context.
> 
> I'm not a fan of overly literal translations of poetry, simply because if I were to read German poetry in an overly literal way, the whole thing might become nonsensical and it would lose much of its intended meaning and beauty.
> 
> PS: Out of curiosity I looked up inebriado, confuso, abobado in google's Portuguese-German translator. The first word for inebriado is berauscht, which is a perfect fit for my mental picture (as opposed to the second meaning 'betrunken'). All translations for the other words are off, or at least not quite right.



Thanks for saying, manfy, I'm glad to hear that.


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