# Ovvero



## Alxmrphi

> All'interno della gigantesca biblioteca virtuale allestita dal colosso di Mountain View ora sono stati inseriti infatti i file Pdf dei volumi "out-of-copyright", ovvero dei libri i cui diritti d'autore sono decaduti


Quote taken from here


Within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California) now, have been infact inserting volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.

Is this translation ok?
My attempt of using "Ovvero" in a sentence:

*Ieri, ho perso il mio libro, è il libro di mio padre, è pieno delle storie, voglio trovare il mio libro, ovvero è il mio biblico!*

(Yeah I know, but it was the only thing I could think of! We can grate all the cheese we want off that, but is it right, in principal? )

Chow.


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> Quote taken from here
> 
> 
> Within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California) now, have been infact inserting (inserted?) volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.
> 
> Is this translation ok?
> My attempt of using "Ovvero" in a sentence:
> 
> *Ieri, ho perso il mio libro, è il libro di mio padre, è pieno delle storie, voglio trovare il mio libro, ovvero è il mio biblico! ( I don't get it..)*
> 
> (Yeah I know, but it was the only thing I could think of! We can grate all the cheese we want off that, but is it right, in principal? )
> 
> Chow.


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## Alxmrphi

In English if we refer to something (like a book) as "our bible" it means it is really important to us. I thought the meaning translated over to Italian..

I'll have another go at a sentence before I finally go to bed.

Joan: Mary! Un ladro ha rubato il tesoro della regina!
Mary: Tesoro? Cosa tesoro?
Joan : Il suo tesoro, ovvero, il suo diamante.

Ovvero works here?


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## fox71

Alex_Murphy said:


> In English if we refer to something (like a book) as "our bible" it means it is really important to us. I thought the meaning translated over to Italian..
> 
> I'll have another go at a sentence before I finally go to bed.
> 
> Joan: Mary! Un ladro ha rubato il tesoro della regina!
> Mary: Tesoro? Cosa *QUALE *tesoro?
> Joan : Il suo tesoro, ovvero, il suo diamante.
> 
> Ovvero works here?


 
Alex, in questo caso va bene, e "ovvero" è intercambiabile con:
1)OSSIA 
2)VALE A DIRE
3)CIOE'


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## Jana337

Alex, I don't think you can use "ovvero" in the sentence. "Ovvero" means "that is" and it is hardly ever followed by a verb (madrelingua?).

Ho perso il mio dizionario preferito, ovvero la mia bibbia! 

Jana


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex, would it be *inserting* or *inserted*?? I'd go for inserted, but you're the Brit here!!


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## fox71

Esatto Jana!
Alex voleva dire: "Voglio trovare il mio libro, OVVERO la mia bibbia"!


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## Paulfromitaly

Jana337 said:


> Alex, I don't think you can use "ovvero" in the sentence.(which sentence are you talking about?) "Ovvero" means "that is" and it is hardly ever followed by a verb (madrelingua?).
> 
> Ho perso il mio dizionario preferito, ovvero la mia bibbia!
> 
> Jana


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## Jana337

> Alex, I don't think you can use "ovvero" in the sentence.(which sentence are you talking about?)


Sorry, a very unclear reference. The one from the first post, about bible.

Jana


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## Alxmrphi

JanJan said:
			
		

> Alex, I don't think you can use "ovvero" in the sentence. "Ovvero" means "that is" and it is hardly ever followed by a verb



I have "Ovvero" as "to be more precise" / "or rather", and "OSSIA" as "that is"

But also...



> Alex, in questo caso va bene, e "ovvero" è intercambiabile con:


Jana or the Fox (The Italian)?!!? I don't know if it's right or not?


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## Paulfromitaly

You can use both ovvero and ossia when you're going to better explain a concept.
Scroll up please, what about inserting and inserted??


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## Alxmrphi

It's definitely *inserting*.

The ongoing process is being reported which doesn't fit with a past tense and "have been" plus anything that isn't the gerund sounds a bit odd.


now, have infact *inserted *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files. 
 now, have been infact *inserting *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files. 
  now, have been infact *inserted *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files. 

It doesn't really work in the passive, because the sentence is active, "they have been inserted volumes" v.s "they have been insterting volumes" (active) like this sentence, it fits here


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## valy822

Ovvero can also mean or. In Italian o/oppure.
es. Analizzate il testo da un punto di vista letterario ovvero linguistico.
Analyse the text from a literary or linguistic point of view.


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## Alxmrphi

Does that still give a sence of an "option" ? with "or/oppure"
I thought "ovvero" would be, "a literay or rather, a linguistic POV" ?


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> It's definitely *inserting*.
> 
> The ongoing process is being reported which doesn't fit with a past tense and "have been" plus anything that isn't the gerund sounds a bit odd.
> 
> 
> now, have infact *inserted *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files.
> now, have been infact *inserting *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files.
> now, have been infact *inserted *volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files.
> 
> It doesn't really work in the passive, because the sentence is active, "they have been inserted volumes" v.s "they have been insterting volumes" (active) like this sentence, it fits here



That's the point Alex: in italian that sentence is passive..the subject are PDF files, been inserted by google staff or whoever..


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## Alxmrphi

I meant to say active sorry:s

You see, if it was passive.... "Volumes of PDF files have been inserted by google staff"
But it is ... "the giants at Mountain View (Google) have been inserting volumes of PDF files" ... (active)

It's saying "inserted" and then "volumes" is where the error sounds bad.. "Have been inserted volumes" 

Can you explain to me how it works in Italian?


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## hannah sue

valy822 said:


> Ovvero can also mean or. In Italian o/oppure.
> es. Analizzate il testo da un punto di vista letterario ovvero linguistico.
> Analyse the text from a literary or linguistic point of view.



Ho controllato anch'io la seconda definizione di *ovvero *riportata sul DeMauro, 
(http://www.demauroparavia.it/77952), quella di *o, oppure*. Ma non ti sembra che sia caduta in disuso? Qual è la tua opinione? Eppure il mio Devoto-Oli del 1971(!!) riporta solo la seconda definizione, e non quella di *ossia, in altre parole*, quindi ne deduco che quest'ultimo significato abbia negli anni acquistato forza, scalsando l'altro nella lingua d'uso. O forse è una questione di uso regionale. Tu usi frequentemente *ovvero* nella seconda definizione?


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## valy822

Try to distinguish these three sentences Alex.

1) Mia zia, ovvero la sorella di mia madre, è venuta recentemente.

2) Guarda laggiù!E' un albero, ovvero un cespuglio.

3) Compilate il modulo a penna ovvero a matita.

There's no great difference between the first 2 sentences.
1) I'd say that is
2) I'd say more exactly/ti be more precise
3) I'd say or

Is it clearer now?


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> I meant to say active sorry:s
> 
> You see, if it was passive.... "Volumes of PDF files have been inserted by google staff"
> But it is ... "the giants at Mountain View (Google) have been inserting volumes of PDF files" ... (active)
> 
> It's saying "inserted" and then "volumes" is where the error sounds bad.. "Have been inserted volumes"
> 
> Can you explain to me how it works in Italian?



Right..the Italian sentence is passive, but you've turned it into active in your traslation and I didn't noticed that:

(Your version, active) =  Within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California) now,(they, the staff) have been infact inserting volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.

(mine, passive as the original one) =  Infact, lately, "out-of-copyright" volumes PDF files have been inserted within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California); to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.


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## pimpiepooh

Scusa Valy, ma se un italiano venisse a dirmi "compila il modulo a penna ovvero a matita" gli chiederei chiarimenti: "a penna o a matita??" 
Non si usa proprio più in italiano "ovvero" con il significato di "oppure"...
In inglese un "ovvero" lo tradurrei con un "that is to say", ma non con "or"...
Poi magari dipende dalle regioni; qui al nord è così


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## valy822

hannah sue said:


> Ho controllato anch'io la seconda definizione di *ovvero *riportata sul DeMauro,
> (http://www.demauroparavia.it/77952), quella di *o, oppure*. Ma non ti sembra che sia caduta in disuso? Qual è la tua opinione? Eppure il mio Devoto-Oli del 1971(!!) riporta solo la seconda definizione, e non quella di *ossia, in altre parole*, quindi ne deduco che quest'ultimo significato abbia negli anni acquistato forza, scalsando l'altro nella lingua d'uso. O forse è una questione di uso regionale. Tu usi frequentemente *ovvero* nella seconda definizione?


 
Ciao hannah sue, io pensavo proprio come te fino a qualche anno fa...ma poi un giorno mi sono trovata all'università un testo con _ovvero_ nel significato di _oppure_ ed ho sbagliato la traduzione (perchè pensavo significasse appunto ossia, cioè). Non l'avevo mai incontrato prima. 
La mia professoressa mi ha gentilmente detto che si trattava di italiano in quel caso e non di lingua straniera. Da quel momento in poi, dopo la bellissima figura, ho imparato a tener presente quest'altra accezione.
Mi capita ancora oggi di incontrare ovvero in questo senso, ma devo dire soprattutto nella lingua scritta.


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## Alxmrphi

Paulfromitaly said:


> Right..the Italian sentence is passive, but you've turned it into active in your traslation and I didn't notice*d* that:
> 
> (Your version, active) =  Within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California) now,(they, the staff) have been infact inserting volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.
> 
> (mine, passive as the original one) = Infact, lately, "out-of-copyright" volumes PDF files have been inserted within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California); to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.



But it is active in both, right? In your passive sentence you've shifted all the words around in a different order to make the passive, doesn't it make more sense to keep it active? Actually it does look passive, but it sounds better in the active way in English, I take it in Italian it's not the same.


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## Akire72

Paulfromitaly said:


> Right..the Italian sentence is passive, but you've turned it into active in your traslation and I didn't noticed that:
> 
> (Your version, active) = Within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California) now,(they, the staff) have been infact inserting volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.
> 
> (mine, passive as the original one) = Infact, lately, "out-of-copyright" volumes PDF files have been inserted within the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View (Google, it's base is in Mountain View, California); to be more precise, books of which their copyright has expired.


 
I agree with you Paul, "inserting" sounds so odd to me in his first translation. In Italian it is passive and so it looked Alex's translation, maybe because he omitted the subject, but can you do that? Isn't subject always specified in English?... let's wait for him to wake up...


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## Alxmrphi

Ok ok I concede.

But "have been inserted volumes" is still wrong.
But in your translation in English, it's like backwards..

The first sentence is at the end of your English translation and the order of the information told, is going backwards, that's what looks weird to me.

Besides, the paragraph is the very first one on a website, it wouldn't start with "Infact......"

It should start, or seems like it should.. with.. "Within the ....."


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## Akire72

Alex_Murphy said:


> But it is active in both, right? In your passive sentence you've shifted all the words around in a different order to make the passive, doesn't it make more sense to keep it active? Actually it does look passive, but it sounds better in the active way in English, I take it in Italian it's not the same.


 
*sono stati inseriti infatti i file Pdf dei volumi "out-of-copyright"*

This is a passive sentence, Alex

Subj: i file PDF dei volumi...
Verb: sono stati inseriti --> inserire is a verb that can be transitive or intransitive, as you can convert this sentence into an actve form, then it is transitve in this case and as, as transitive, it takes avere as auxiliary wheras it has essere here, therefore you can "guess" it's passive. Sorry, but that's how it works...


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## Akire72

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok ok I concede.
> 
> But "have been inserted volumes" is still wrong.
> But in your translation in English, it's like backwards..
> 
> The first sentence is at the end of your English translation and the order of the information told, is going backwards, that's what looks weird to me.
> 
> Besides, the paragraph is the very first one on a website, it wouldn't start with "Infact......"
> 
> It should start, or seems like it should.. with.. "Within the ....."


 
I normally convert passive Italian sentences into active English sentences because passive is not as much used in English as it is in Italian.

P.s. I think I made a mistake, I'm not sure *inserire* can be intransitive, maybe it can be just transitive and reflexive ...


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## Alxmrphi

My book tells me English uses the passive a hell of a lot more than Italian.


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## Akire72

Mine says it is better to translate passive into active  Maybe we are both right. Personally I don't find passive very easy to translate into English, sentences sound stiff and weird.

Anyway, another word that is generally translated with ovvero/ossia is the i.e. (latin, id est --> ciò è --> cioè)


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## Henry63a

Akire72 said:


> P.s. I think I made a mistake, I'm not sure *inserire* can be intransitive, maybe it can be just transitive and reflexive ...


'_inserire_' is only transitive (apart the reflexive '_inserirsi_'). (De Mauro)


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ok ok I concede.
> 
> But "have been inserted volumes" is still wrong.



I don't understand what's wrong with _have been inserted_, Alex...

From google:

"*...books have been inserted* in   the catalogue."
"..Abstract *Books have been inserted* in the delegates' bags."
"...two courtesy *books have been inserted* at the point.."


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## Akire72

Paulfromitaly said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with _have been inserted_, Alex...
> 
> From google:
> 
> "*...books have been inserted* in the catalogue."
> "..Abstract *Books have been inserted* in the delegates' bags."
> "...two courtesy *books have been inserted* at the point.."


 
Maybe Alex should have jus put Volumes ahead, like...

Volumes have been inserted...


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## Akire72

I would have translated iot this way:

Volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, i.e. books of which their copyright has expired, have been infact inserted into the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View.


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## Paulfromitaly

Akire72 said:


> I would have translated iot this way:
> 
> Volumes of "out-of-copyright" PDF files, i.e. books of which their copyright has expired, have been infact inserted into the gigantic virtual library set up by the giants from Mountain View.



If you don't need to comply with a literal translation, your version is the best one.


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## Alxmrphi

It was when "volumes" _follows_ inserted it didn't make sense.
I think I've learnt the lessons I'm meant to in this thread


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## ElaineG

34 posts, and no comments on "books of which their copyright has expired?"  That's not English, ragazzi.

How about "books whose copyright has expired", or better yet, if less literal, "books no longer subject to copyright."


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## Alxmrphi

I thought about using whose, but something registered as wrong, as you know Elaine, I don't know much English


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## ElaineG

Alex_Murphy said:


> I thought about using whose, but something registered as wrong, as you know Elaine, I don't know much English


 
But you're getting better every day .


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