# nobis pro lemma vobis



## jester.

Hi. 

Could anyone translate

_nobis pro lemma vobis_

for me?

This is the context.


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## jazyk

I don't know. It doesn't make much sense to me: because of us for the subject/slogan/motto to you.


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## jazyk

> The Latin





> phrase on the album cover, "nobis pro lemma vobis", translates roughly as "for us, for them, for you". This lyric comes from the song Burn Burn, which can be found on the band's previous album Start Something.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Transmission

I don't know. It doesn't sound right to me. Where's the for them? I don't see it.


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## jester.

What a pity.

But I just had the idea to check Wikipedia and this is what I found:



> The Latin phrase on the album cover, "nobis pro lemma vobis", translates roughly as "for us, for them, for you". This lyric comes from the song _Burn Burn_, which can be found on the band's previous album _Start Something_.



Do you think this is right? I still remember from my Latin classes that nobis and vobis both are dative pronouns. Therefore the "sentence" seems strange to me, too...


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## jester.

Wow, seems we had the same idea


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## jazyk

I agree with you. To translate _for us, for them, for you_, I'd say _Nobis, Eis/Iis, Vobis_ if they are receiving something but if I mean _owing to us, them, you, _I'd use nostra causa, eorum/earum causa, vestra causa.


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## jazyk

It just occurred to me there's another reason why Nobis pro lemma vobis can't be right. Pro requires ablative, then you'd have pro lemmate. Pro can only be used with the accusative if it has an interjective strength: pro deum atque hominum fidem = may the gods and the men assist me!


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## Sheenster

NOBIS = by/with/from us
PRO (with ablative) = before, in front of; from the front of; for, in favour of; instead of; in proportion to.
LEMMA = (has me stomp, I can't find it in my dictionary)
VOBIS = by/with/from you

I was thinking something "From us for _______ from you"


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## Oli16

It's wrong on so many levels. 
1. Firstly 'lemma' means theme/ title; nothing to do with 'them.'
2. Secondly, 'pro' as a preposistion meaning 'on behalf has' (which I think is appropriate condisering the context of the song) governs an ablative case, so even if lemma was the correct word, it would be "lemmate/ lemmatibus." It's a noun not a pronoun- it's just wrong.
3. nobis and vobis are also governed by 'pro' and therefore also need to be ablative, of course the dative and ablative plurals are the same although I would have thought it's meant as dative  here!

As an A-level Latin student I would translate it as: 
pro nobis eis vobis (ablatives)
or more simply, but probably more ambiguous and not as contextually accurate:
nobis eis vobis (as datives)


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## relativamente

The words pro lemma are in a higher level. Maybe should be read as a different line and nobis vobis as a second line

For a titel (maybe meaning this is the titel)
For us, for you.


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## Stoicorum_simia

Oli16 said:


> Firstly 'lemma' means theme/ title; nothing to do with 'them.'


 
My guess is that someone ran this ('for us, for them, for you') through an automatic translator which was even more incompetent than usual and confused 'them' with 'theme'.


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## Oli16

relativamente said:


> The words pro lemma are in a higher level. Maybe should be read as a different line and nobis vobis as a second line
> 
> For a titel (maybe meaning this is the titel)
> For us, for you.



Yeah that is possible but I don't think it would make any sense at all. Even so, the casage is still wrong.
And I don't think that 'pro' can mean 'for' in that sense- meaning 'as.' It means in front of, on behalf of or in return for.


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## relativamente

Oli16 said:


> Yeah that is possible but I don't think it would make any sense at all. Even so, the casage is still wrong.
> And I don't think that 'pro' can mean 'for' in that sense- meaning 'as.' It means in front of, on behalf of or in return for.



It's clear that this sentence was not written by Cicero.Just we can try to guess what intented to convey the authour whoever he was.Maybe he thought lemma was a first declination femenine word.
But "pro + ablative" can mean also "instead" or "in the place of"


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## Stoicorum_simia

Stoicorum_simia said:


> My guess is that someone ran this ('for us, for them, for you') through an automatic translator which was even more incompetent than usual and confused 'them' with 'theme'.


 
On fake Latin mottoes and automatic translators, see this amusing site: http://waywardclassics.blogspot.com/2010/01/latin-tattoos.html


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## Oli16

Haha. Idiots.


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## XiaoRoel

*Per hoc lemma quod est nobis uobis est*. Podría ser ésta la construcción "no lemática".


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