# Persian: تا آنکه / تا اینکه



## Qureshpor

Hello friends once again.

I would like to know if there is any difference in meaning for the use of تا اینکه and تا آنکه. Also do these terms always mean "until" or do they also mean "as far as", "to the extent that" and "so that"?


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## farzan

Hi. They do sometimes stand for “so that”, but this usage is mainly reserved for تا on its own.

There is not a difference in application or meaning between the تا آن كه and تا اين كه.


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## PersoLatin

One difference is that تاآنکه is more formal than تااینکه and it is not used in modern colloquial Persian.


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## Qureshpor

Thank you both Farzan and PersoLatin. From my experience, تا اینکه seems to exist more often in the older literary language whereas I noticed that in a more recent book written for children containing stories from قابوس نامه and other such prose books, تا آنکه was the author's preferred option.

As a matter of interest, what word should one extrapolate after این or آن? Would it be a word for "time" or something else?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> As a matter of interest, what word should one extrapolate after این or آن? Would it be a word for "time" or something else?


I take it this applies to تااینکه & تاانکه.

For me تااینکه always refers to time and time that is fairly close, either in the future or past. It is less rhetorical i.e. applies to usual & likely events in day-to-day life. تاآنکه is the opposite in those except the time aspects.

که in تا آنکه (with a space) can mean ‘who’ but that’s not quite the question:
تا آنکه این کار را کرده پیدا شود


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> .....تا آنکه is the opposite in those except the time aspects.
> 
> که in تا آنکه (with a space) can mean ‘who’ but that’s not quite the question:
> تا آنکه این کار را کرده پیدا شود



Sorry PersoLatin, I did n't quite follow these two points. Could you please elaborate a little more.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> For me تااینکه always refers to time and time that is fairly close, either in the future or past. It is less rhetorical i.e. applies to usual & likely events in day-to-day life. تاآنکه is the opposite in those except the time aspects.


What I meant was تاآنکه also refers to an event but whose time of occurrence is uncertain and, in my experience, always in the future and also even never, hence rhetorical.




PersoLatin said:


> که in تا آنکه (with a space) can mean ‘who’ but that’s not quite the question:
> تا آنکه این کار را کرده پیدا شود


تا آنکه in this form i.e. تا +  آنکه  refers to a person or 's/he who', تا آنکه این کار را کرده پیدا شود - *until s/he who *has done this [task] is found. Here تا on its own means '*until*' and آنکه is *آنکس/آن کس*


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## farzan

PersoLatin said:


> What I meant was تاآنکه also refers to an event but whose time of occurrence is uncertain and, in my experience, always in the future and also never, hence rhetorical.



Hello, PersoLatin. 

I must admit I didn’t understand the original question about the “word”. Nontheless, I feel I should like to understand the answer if I can. In the example below, there is nothing that is uncertain, in the future, or rhetorical, or is there? 

رفت و رفت تا آن كه خسته شد 

Could you explain your explanation, please?


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## PersoLatin

Hi farzan & Qureshpor,

I’d like to retract my idea that تااینکه and  تاآنکه may impart certainty etc. I still believe the main difference is that تاآنکه is used formally and تااینکه is used informally.

I have another idea which I will explain soon.


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## PersoLatin

Using farzan's example: رفت و رفت تا *آن* كه خسته شد - she went & went till [the time that] she got tired.

I hope we agree that تا آن كه in the above sentence refers to time and that آن makes that time specific, and that تا آن كه is equivalent to تا آن زمان که/ تا زمانی که and here آن/ی is the definite article, which makes the meaning 'till the time that' 

We also know that *تا آن كه* and *تا این که* are generally interchangeable, and in particular in the above sentence, however *این* in "تا این که" can not act in the same way as *آن* in "تا آن كه", so the conclusion is "تا این زمان که" is NOT equivalent to تا آن زمان که/ تا زمانی که and رفت و رفت تا *این *زمان که خسته شد is WRONG.

I'll wait for your comments on this before I explain the reason for the above analysis.


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## farzan

PersoLatin, I seem to understand and agree with you, so far.

The difference may just be that which exists between “this” and “that”. They both suggest distance in time between a continuous action and a cessation of that action. If one construct is used more often than the other it may be force of habit. Alternatively, this may be a question of mental perspective: تا اين كه may be spoken or written in cases where the speaker is or feels closer to the final event. But I am not sure. I shall wait to be introduced to your analysis.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Also do these terms always mean "until" or do they also mean "as far as", "to the extent that" and "so that"?


I don't believe either covers *"as far as"* although it may appear so as most such constructions have a space and a time aspect, but in reality they always refer to a time. *تا *is the best match for "as far as" when followed by a 'place' e.g. اینجا, خانه, با زار, آنجا

I don't believe either covers *"to the extent that",* تا آنجا یی که or تا/به حدی که are the best matches.

They work for  *"so that"*, although like always with reference to time: چندین بار گفت تا آنکه او بفهمد/she said it several times so that he understands

تا آنکه & تا اینکه can also mean *"as soon as"* e.g.  تا اینکه او را دید فریاد زد/as soon as she saw her she screamed, or تا اینکه رسیدیم رفتیم خوابیدیم/as soon as we arrived went to bed.


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## PersoLatin

farzan said:


> The difference may just be that which exists between “this” and “that”.


The point I was making wasn't the difference between 'این' & 'آن', but the fact that تا این که is invalid as a conjunction, in this context. 

I think تا این که when used in your example in post#8, is the colloquial form of تا آن كه i.e. تا اون که that has changed to تا این که (so اون to این). In my view تا این که should not be used in formal Persian because it effectively means تا این زمان که which is nonsensical in the context.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> I don't believe either covers *"as far as"* although it may appear so as most such constructions have a space and a time aspect, but in reality they always refer to a time. *تا *is the best match for "as far as" when followed by a 'place' e.g. اینجا, خانه, با زار, آنجا
> 
> I don't believe either covers *"to the extent that",* تا آنجا یی که or تا/به حدی که are the best matches.
> 
> They work for  *"so that"*, although like always with reference to time: چندین بار گفت تا آنکه او بفهمد/she said it several times so that he understands
> 
> تا آنکه & تا اینکه can also mean *"as soon as"* e.g.  تا اینکه او را دید فریاد زد/as soon as she saw her she screamed, or تا اینکه رسیدیم رفتیم خوابیدیم/as soon as we arrived went to bed.


Thank you for a very detailed response. Here is an example from تاریخِ بلعمی۔ زندگی نامۂ پیامبر اسلام

ما باز نگردیم تا آنگه که یقین ندانیم کہ بورافع کشته است و ھمه بر این بپراگندند۔


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> ا باز نگردیم تا آنگه که یقین ندانیم کہ بورافع کشته است و ھمه بر این بپراگندند۔


Sorry Qureshpor, is this example supporting or refuting one of my points above? 
تا آنگه که == تا آن زمان که


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## Qureshpor

Indeed it supports your point since گاہ / گه = time.


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