# Urdu, Hindi: instrumental case



## marrish

In older language, the feature of a separate form of words that were put in the instrumental case, must have been much richer represented than in the contemporary Urdu or Hindi. Such possibility is preserved, probably to a larger extent, in Punjabi. 

If this feature exists in the language of today, it will be most surely in proverbs and idioms, which often help some archaic elements.

One word that is put in the instrumental case that comes to my mind is _bhuuk(h)_; e.g. _*bhuuk(h)oN* marnaa _which means to starve to death (lit. to die of hunger). It would be nice if you can come forward with other instances.


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## Qureshpor

Perhaps the -oN ending is not strictly "instrumental". What about..

duudhoN nahaa'o, puutooN phalo!

(duudh meN nahaa'o, beToN meN phalo)

This sounds like "locative" case.

And let me quote from the treasures of Urdu poetry.

puutoN phalnaa tujhe aur duudhoN nahaanaa ho nasiib
biyaah ho sone ke sihre se, tirii 3umr daraaz

Insha Allah Khan Insha (1756-1817)


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## marrish

Thanks for this, QP SaaHib! I agree that the -oN ending doesn't necessarily always denote the instrumental, it may be locative as well but any conclusions at this stage would be too hastily.

What about _duudh *se* nahaa'o par bhuuk *se* nah maro_?


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## marrish

Another one:_ apne haath-*oN* banaayaa_ (instrumental).


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Another one:_ apne haath-*oN* banaayaa_ (instrumental).



Yes, and also "kisi ke haathoN marnaa" = kisi ke haath se marnaa

I don't think that this "-oN" ending exists except for a few words, though. One cannot say "pyaasoN marnaa" for example, even if one is dying "pyaas se".

Note that "bhukhoN marnaa" is considered dialect or rustic as against "bhukhaa marnaa".


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thanks for this, QP SaaHib! I agree that the -oN ending doesn't necessarily always denote the instrumental, it may be locative as well but any conclusions at this stage would be too hastily.
> 
> What about _duudh *se* nahaa'o par bhuuk *se* nah maro_?



aur puuToN se phalo? I think, here at least one should think in terms of "meN".


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## marrish

^It is certainly possible, magar aap to _naak*oN* chane chabwaane lage haiN_, janaab!


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## greatbear

I don't think anything wrong in "puuToN se phalo". I say for a tree "phaloN se phalnaa" rather than "phaloN meiN phalnaa", though the latter is also equally correct.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> marrish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another one:_ apne haath-*oN* banaayaa_ (instrumental).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and also "kisi ke haathoN marnaa" = kisi ke haath se marnaa
> 
> I don't think that this "-oN" ending exists except for a few words, though. One cannot say "pyaasoN marnaa" for example, even if one is dying "pyaas se".
> 
> Note that "bhukhoN marnaa" is considered dialect or rustic as against "bhukhaa marnaa".
Click to expand...

_
jii haaN greatbear, jahaaN ham banaane kii karte haiN aap marne-maarne kii baat chheR dete, is ke baa-vujuud aap kii baat bi-l-kul durust hai, ''pyaasoN marnaa'' shaayad itnaa isti3maal nahiiN hu'aa thaa jitnaa kih 'tisoN marnaa' hu'aa ho gaa.
_
I said in the OP that it is older language that is why it can be considered weird, and rustic, bearing in mind the fact that the lanugage of the villages retains numerous gems, and as opposed to the languages of the cities, does not change equally fast.


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## Faylasoof

Our case system comprises these:

Nominative
Accusative
Dative
Ergative
Genitive
Instrumental 
Locative

The case marked with _se_ is usually treated as _instrumental_, but _se_ adopts other roles too e.g. in comparative. The locative is marked by _meN_, _tak_, _par_ etc.  So _bhuuk se marnaa_ ->   _bhuukoN marnaa_ – this is instrumental (not locative) where the _se_ is dropped and –_oN_ added.


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## hungariansikh

In hindi and urdu: se 
In punjabi: toon       

for exam: ghar se nikalna and ghar to nikalna


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## marrish

hungariansikh said:


> In hindi and urdu: se
> In punjabi: toon
> 
> for exam: ghar se nikalna and ghar to nikalna


Since we were discussing a proper case marker _*-oN*_ that is attached to a noun (like _bhuuk->bhuukoN_ for example), let me add that in Punjabi I'd say _gharoN nikalnaa_ (pronounce: k_haroN).


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## hungariansikh

sorry marrish i dont get your thought,, example: hindi: main dilli se hu  punjabi: main dilli to han


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## marrish

hungariansikh said:


> sorry marrish i dont get your thought,, example: hindi: main dilli se hu  punjabi: main dilli to han


I was trying to say that the case marker is an integral part of the word, not two words (the noun and the post-position). Moreover, we'd be better off to concentrate on the instrumental function of such marker (''with'' something or ''out of'' something) than the ablative (''from'' something, somewhere). 

The Punjabi you wrote, ghar toN, can be said in Punjabi in one word.


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## hungariansikh

The Punjabi you wrote, ghar toN, can be said in Punjabi in one word.

yes of course,, ghar to-gharon , vich to- viccho(from),,


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## marrish

I found another one in Platts: bāṅsoṅ ućhalnā, bāṅsoṅ kūdnā, v.n. To leap or bound for joy, to rejoice.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> I found another one in Platts: bāṅsoṅ ućhalnā, bāṅsoṅ kūdnā, v.n. To leap or bound for joy, to rejoice.


 As a variation of this there are also برچھوں اڑنا \ اڑجانا _barchhoN uRnaa _/ _uR jaanaa_. Here are Anis and Munis:


اڑ جاتا ہے برچھوں وہ محل جست کا پا کر
تلواروں کے نیچے سے نکل جاتا ہے آ کر
 انیس

برچھوں اُڑ جاتا ہے دب دب کے فرس رانوں سے
آنکھ  لڑ  جاتی  ہے  دریا  کے  نگہبانوں  سے
 مونس


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> As a variation of this there are also برچھوں اڑنا \ اڑجانا _barchoN uRnaa _/ _uR jaanaa_. Here are Anis and Munis:
> 
> 
> اڑ جاتا ہے برچھوں وہ محل جست کا پا کر
> تلواروں کے نیچے سے نکل جاتا ہے آ کر
> انیس
> 
> برچھوں اُڑ جاتا ہے دب دب کے فرس رانوں سے
> آنکھ  لڑ  جاتی  ہے  دریا  کے  نگہبانوں  سے
> مونس


Many thanks, Faylasoof SaaHib, especially for the verses.


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## UrduMedium

How about _chaaroN _xaane chit kar denaa/ho jaanaa?

Also, how about the use of extra i/y as in das*iy*oN/biis*iy*oN. The same not employed in sainkRoN/hazaaroN? Any relation to this topic?


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## marrish

I'll leave this to others out of hospitality.

Also _biichoN biich_ guzarnaa. It would be locative then.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Many thanks, Faylasoof SaaHib, especially for the verses.


 Welcome, marrish SaaHib!


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