# métale/metele (Hermano dame tu mano)



## Maria003

Why does MS switch from the tu command "Hermano dame tu mano" to usted?   What does the use of this tense mean?  Thanks!



 Métale a la marcha, métale al tambor
métale que traigo un pueblo en mi voz,
métale a la marcha, métale al tambor
métale que traigo un pueblo en mi voz.


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## elianecanspeak

When I googled "Hermano dame tu mano" letras OR letra sosa "mét*a*le que traigo" I got 198 hits.

When I googled "Hermano dame tu mano" letras OR letra sosa "mét*e*le que traigo" I got 0 hits.

When I googled ""Hermano dame tu mano"  "mét*e*le que traigo"" I got 424 hits.

Could this have anything to do with the *"vos"* form used in Argentina?  



(NB: I deleted what k-in-sc said was incorrect from this post)


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## Maria003

Hmmm Eliane.  It could be vos... I'm not sure but I do need to know.  In regard to the mete vs meta, it still doesn't explain to me why "le".  Any more help please?  Any Argentines out there? Thanks!!


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## gringuitoloco

No. Command form of "vos" does not have an accent there:
Tomá is imperative of tomar. (Que vos tomes)
99% of imperatives using vos are simply adding an accent to the last vowel, then dropping the r. 
The vos command of "meter" is meté. so adding "le" at the end would make it simply Metele. (The emphasis does not need to be moved to the first syllable, because it automatically goes to the next-to-last.

Tú tómatela
Vos tomátela.
Usted Tómetela

Tu command (except for irregulars) use the third-person singular present.
Usted uses the third-person subjunctive (Basically changes the a to e, and e to a)
Vos just adds the accent and drops the r.

Hope this helps =)
(I prefer vos, having learned Spanish in Argentina. Plus it's a lot easier IMO)


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## k-in-sc

elianecanspeak said:


> Could this have anything to do with the *"vos"* form used in Argentina? The imperative forms for vos are identical to the plural imperative forms in Rioplatense.


No, they're not.
Maybe the refrain is a reference to another song.


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## elianecanspeak

gringitoloco said:


> Command form of "vos" does not have an accent there:
> 
> The vos command of "meter" is meté. so adding "le" at the end would make it simply Metele. (The emphasis does not need to be moved to the first syllable, because it automatically goes to the next-to-last.)
> 
> Vos just adds the accent and drops the r.



Perhaps the accent was added in regions where vos is not used -- they may have retained the vos form but corrected to their own dialect by adding the accent on the first syllable.

Is this a possibility foreros?


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## k-in-sc

No, Mercedes Sosa es (era) bien argentina.


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## elianecanspeak

k-in-sc said:


> No, Mercedes Sosa es (era) bien argentina.



I know she is, but I am suggesting that when her lyrics were published in other countries those changes may have occurred.

When I googled, both "met*e*le/mét*e*le" and "mét*a*le" came up (and google ignores the presence or absence of accents, so both metele and métele came up on the same search).

It depends on the origin of the version of the lyrics that Maria003 cites.


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## duvija

Yes, Mercedes Sosa is Argentinian. That song is very well known, and yes, she switches from 'tuteo' tu "Ud." forms. It's an easy change in songs and poetry (it has to do with matching the tune to the words). 

This is just the plain old 'imperativo' of 'dar', in the Ud. form.

'Meta Ud.' but 'Métale Ud.' which needs a tilde as any esdrújula word has.


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## Milton Sand

Hi,
She is just not talking to the _hermano_ in the chorus but to the drummer. When using "vos"—I'm pretty sure it's not "tú"—to adress the _hermano_, she's trying to establish an friendly link between her and you—the listener, the _hermano.—_ Then she shows a less affective relationship with the drummer—who is not you, no way—when adressing him as "usted". Thus, the emotional link with you, _hermano_, won't break.

Regards,


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> ... it has to do with matching the tune to the words.


"Métale" and "métele" have the same beats and syllable counts.


elianecanspeak said:


> I know she is, but I am suggesting that when her lyrics were published in other countries those changes may have occurred.


You can hear her on YouTube. She says "métale."


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## Mate

Ambas formas —métale y metele— son propias del voseo rioplatense. 

Habiendo prestado atención al estribillo de la canción, no hay manera de hacer encajar en la métrica cantada un "met*e*le" en lugar de un "métale". 

Conclusión: siempre está presente el voseo. Se pasa al trato formal (métale) en el estribillo para que se ajuste a la música.


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## k-in-sc

If she had wanted to say "met*e*le" but needed to pronounce it "m*é*tele," I think she would have, like so many other musicians.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> If she had wanted to say "met*e*le" but needed to pronounce it "m*é*tele," I think she would have, like so many other musicians.


 

In Spanish, the accent carried by a certain syll. of a word, is totally irrelevant in/for songs. In English, you don't switch so easily (I'm trying to find a paper published exactly about this).


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## k-in-sc

So do you agree with MS that the switch is because the chorus is not addressed to the listener?


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## Maria003

Wow... Thanks for all the input.  It does seem to me that she is directing her words to someone else and switches to usted.  For now, I'm going to have to run with this--the drummer theory--unless if anyone can add anything else.  I am happy to hear future interpretations at any time!!  Even 2020!  Thanks folks!


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## k-in-sc

It still seems strange that she would address anybody as "usted," especially given the theme of the song.


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## Milton Sand

k-in-sc said:


> It still seems strange that she would address anybody as "usted," especially given the theme of the song.


I wouldn't say that. The difference between "tú/vos" and "usted" is mainly more emotional (closeness vs. distance) than social (informal vs. formal). My girlfriend easily switches to "usted" when addressing me if she gets angry at me or simply gets serious.


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## duvija

Milton Sand said:


> I wouldn't say that. The difference between "tú/vos" and "usted" is mainly more emotional (closeness vs. distance) than social (informal vs. formal). My girlfriend easily switches to "usted" when addressing me if she gets angry at me or simply gets serious.


 

I totally agree. That measure is called 'solidarity' (in the Lit. about this, of course). 

In this case, the story is slightly different, I believe.
We simply don't use the 'imperativo' that much. I remember having a temper tantrum the first time I saw this issue addressed ("who's going to tell ME what tenses we use!"), but now I'm older and mellower. Unless you are with your own spouse and kids, you don't say 'pasame la sal'. (In my dialect is 'pas*a*me', but the same works for 'p*á*same').
We go mostly for:

¿Me pasás la sal?
¿No me pasás la sal?

¿Me pasarías la sal?
¿No me pasarías la sal?

¿Podés pasarme la sal?
¿No podés pasarme la sal?

¿Podrías pasarme la sal?
¿No podrías pasarme la sal?

So, small wonder we try not to use the imperativo. And when we do, even for people close to us, and in Mercedes Sosa's case for people she doesn't even know, a good way for keeping the politeness business working, is switching to the Ud. form, even in mid sentence. 
So in this case, using 'imperativo with Ud.' is the polite thing to do.
Does this make sense?


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## Maria003

Duvija, Can you please post the bibliographical information for these articles?  It would really help me in general... I would very, very much appreciate it,

Maria


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## duvija

Maria003 said:


> Duvija, Can you please post the bibliographical information for these articles? It would really help me in general... I would very, very much appreciate it,
> 
> Maria


 

Everything about 'speech acts' (Searle, etc.) It's a lot.
Lo que encuentres sobre 'solidarity and deference'.
También esto:
http://www.indiana.edu/~discprag/spch_requests.html

Perdón que no te pueda dar un trabajo específico, pero es que hay tanto escrito y discutido sobre este tema, que toma tiempo hacerlo bien. Ahi van varios:

<LI class=paper-item sizset="25" sizcache="7">*how to do things with words (Citations: 1708)*



J. Austin 



Published in 1962.
<LI class=paper-item sizset="27" sizcache="7">*Speech acts: an essay in the philosophy of language (Citations: 1152)*



J. R. Searle 



Published in 1969.
<LI class=paper-item sizset="29" sizcache="7">*Politeness: some universals in language usage (Citations: 647)*



Penelope Brown, Steve Levinson 



Published in 1987.
<LI class=paper-item sizset="32" sizcache="7">*Exploring the Interlanguage of Interlanguage Pragmatics: A Research Agenda for Acquisitional Pragmat (Citations: 15)*



Kathleen Bardovi-harlig 



Published in 1999.
*Frame Analysis: an Essay on the Organization of Experience (Citations: 481)*



E Goffman 

Conference: International Symposium on Mobile Agents - MA , 1970


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## Maria003

mUUchas gracias!


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## k-in-sc

So you're saying it's not a matter of her distance from the person she's talking to, it's that the imperative sounds too harsh with "vos/tú" and more appropriate with "usted"?
There's a very cute Ancel commercial (on YouTube) called "Nuestra Forma de Hablar" that's all about uruguayismos and specifically mentions what you said about "si pedimos algo, decimos 'no te animás, no me pasás, no me arrimás,' ... " When my DH heard it, he said the uruguayos were "copiones," because of course a lot of the expressions in the commercial are used in Argentina too.


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## Mate

duvija said:


> So, small wonder we try not to use the imperativo. And when we do, even for people close to us, and in Mercedes Sosa's case for people she doesn't even know, a good way for keeping the politeness business working, is switching to the Ud. form, even in mid sentence.
> So in this case, using 'imperativo with Ud.' is the polite thing to do.
> Does this make sense?


With all due respect, ma'am, no. 
 It doesn't make any sense to this Argentinian stubborn child of the earth. 

I still think that this is all about metrics, rhythm and rhyme. The switch to the imperative is just to sound better in the song.


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## k-in-sc

I really do not see how it could be about meter. The meters are the same. Only the vowel is different. You have to listen closely to even tell what she's actually saying.


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## -SaLeM-

She's obviously trying to fit "m*é*tale" with the drums, otherwise she would have to start saying "met*a*le" before drums were played, and that wouldn't sound good.


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## -SaLeM-

In addition, she says "métale" instead of "métele" which also shows distancing from the listener. (vos / tú)


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> In Spanish, the accent carried by a certain syll. of a word is *totally irrelevant *in/for songs.


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## zema

Creo que ese _métale_ produce un efecto impersonal, como si dijera  “a meterle” o “vamos con”. 

No sabría explicarlo bien, pero tal vez se entienda con estos ejemplo de internet:

  "El ingeniero civil es más bien práctico, calculador y numérico. La funcionalidad está antes que la estética. En pocas, te gustan más los números dale por la ingeniería. Si eres más bien creativo y visual métale a la arquitectura".

  "Ahora me acuerdo de mi vieja. Aayy. Hijo, sea alguien, hijo no beba más. Y yo métale a la bebida y métale a la droga y métale a la madre de los tomates".


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## k-in-sc

That sounds reasonable to me


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## duvija

zema said:


> Creo que ese _métale_ produce un efecto impersonal, como si dijera “a meterle” o “vamos con”.
> 
> No sabría explicarlo bien, pero tal vez se entienda con estos ejemplo de internet:
> 
> "El ingeniero civil es más bien práctico, calculador y numérico. La funcionalidad está antes que la estética. En pocas, te gustan más los números dale por la ingeniería. Si eres más bien creativo y visual métale a la arquitectura".
> 
> "Ahora me acuerdo de mi vieja. Aayy. Hijo, sea alguien, hijo no beba más. Y yo métale a la bebida y métale a la droga y métale a la madre de los tomates".


 
¡Muy bueno! o sea ¿ lo 'despersonaliza'? (*salvo el detalle de empezar con 'hermano dame tu mano'  y recién después despersonalizarlo?)


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## k-in-sc

Well, that's nothing, it's not even in the same verse. Zema's examples use "métale" in the same sentence with "yo" and "eres." Interesting, though, that the first one also used "dale."


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## zema

duvija said:


> ¡Muy bueno! o sea ¿ lo 'despersonaliza'? (*salvo el detalle de empezar con 'hermano dame tu mano'  y recién después despersonalizarlo?)



Bueno, justo esa impresión me dio al escuchar la canción. En el coro se  despersonaliza, no se dirige como en los versos anteriores al "hermano" a  quien llamaba de tú, sino que habla en general, como si dijera "hay que  meterle a la marcha".


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## Mate

> Métale a la marcha, métale al tambor
> métale que traigo un pueblo en mi voz,
> métale a la marcha, métale al tambor
> métale que traigo un pueblo en mi voz.


Lo que dice zema ( “a meterle” o “vamos con”) tiene mucho asidero. 

Además, y perdón por la reiteración, "métale" encaja perfectamente con el ritmo del estribillo y el golpe del redoblante que se escucha detrás del rasguido de la guitarra.

Los argentinos y los habitantes de algunas tribus vecinas solemos decir "meta (inserte la cosa a vivar en este espacio)" como sinónimo del lacónico "hurra". 

En síntesis, ese métale no es ni formal, ni cariñoso, ni nada; es un modismo.


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