# Croatian (BCS): Lokativ



## Mac_Linguist

Je li pravilno reći "u hrvatskom*e*" ili "u hrvatskom jeziku"?


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## nexy

Oba su pravilna (bar sto se tice srpskog). Mislim da hrvati cesce koriste "u hrvatskome" dok ces u srpskom uvek cuti "u hrvatskom" (vrlo retko "u hrvatskome")


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

*na* hrvatskom jeziku (?)


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## dudasd

As you probably know, adjectives in Croatian can be determined and undetermined. Roughly said, a determined adjective describes "which one", and an undetermined describes "what (alike) one". Examples:

Undefined:
Crn kaput - A black coat. "Hoću da kupim crn kaput" - "I want to buy a black coat". (Not white, and not blue; maybe I even don't mind the model, I just want a black one.)

Defined:
Crni kaput - The black coat. "Obući ću crni kaput" - "I will put on the black coat." (I have several coats, but I will choose the black one.)

Sometimes it's hard to make a distinction, and sometimes defined and undefined modes even overlap. But in this case, it is _the _language (not "one of Croatian languages"), so "hrvatskome" is better. Actually, not only better but obligatory according by strict grammar rules, but as the border between definite and undefinite modes has become slightly "vague" in common language during the past decades, I must admit that you will - probably - more often hear "u hrvatskom jeziku", and "u hrvatskome" can sound even archaic. "U hrvatskom jeziku" is closer to "In the language of Croats" (and in that meaning it's not incorrect), and "U hrvatskome jeziku" is "In Croatian". If you check titles of Croatian dictionaries, you will find both variants. For example: "Rječnik hrvatskog jezika", but: Rječnik hrvatskoga kajkavskoga književnog jezika." In this second case you can see the distinction (though it's dative, not locative): "Rječnik hrvatskoga kajkavskoga (specifying which one) književnog (specifying what kind of) jezika."


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## Duya

Tolovaj_Mataj said:


> *na* hrvatskom jeziku (?)


 
Different semantics: "na hrvatskom" means "as translated on Croatian",  while "u hrvatskom" would mean "by the rules of Croatian". Compare:

Kako  se kaže "toolbar" *na* hrvatskom?
Da li je *u *hrvatskom pravilno  reći "da li znaš?" 

Back to the original question: I think that  "hrvatskom*e*" is a hypercorrection even in Croatian, i.e. that it's  "correct" but sounds stilted, but then, I'm not a native speaker (for a suitable  definition of "native" ). Since this is one of Athaulf's pet peeves, I suppose he will  comment.


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## Athaulf

Actually, you'll see three different versions used in practice nowadays:

(1) _u hrvatskom _
(2) _u hrvatskom*e* _
(3) _u hrvatskom*u* _

I suspect (unscientifically ) that this mess might be due to the relatively recent merger of dative and locative, which are completely identical  in modern Croatian and indistinguishable by native speakers except for some local dialects, although they are treated separately in formal grammatical discussions. Nowadays, (1) is by far the most common form in practice, and (2) is also much more common than (3). Both forms (2) and (3) sound quite stilted, although they do sound right intuitively. In my experience, (2) seems to be the preferred form in writings of Croatian linguists, but I've definitely seen all three used even in the most formal writing.

Amusingly, Google will suggest you to use the form (1) if you try googling for expressions containing (2) or (3) (try this and this search). 




dudasd said:


> Sometimes it's hard to make a distinction, and sometimes defined and undefined modes even overlap. But in this case, it is _the _language (not "one of Croatian languages"), so "hrvatskome" is better. Actually, not only better but obligatory according by strict grammar rules, but as the border between definite and undefinite modes has become slightly "vague" in common language during the past decades, I must admit that you will - probably - more often hear "u hrvatskom jeziku", and "u hrvatskome" can sound even archaic.



Are you sure that this is really a definite/indefinite opposition, rather than a mix-up of the the old Slavic separate endings for dative and locative? Personally, I have no feeling whatsoever for definiteness of any adjectives derived from proper nouns with _-ski _and similar endings, although it is crystal clear to me for most other classes of adjectives, even when it's determined only by stress (you might remember our recent discussion about this topic). 

What would be the nominative definite and indefinite forms of the adjective _hrvatski_? I don't feel this adjective as carrying any definiteness information, although it declines like a long (i.e. definite) one. If I try to forcefully construct its indefinite form, I can only make a nonsense attempt to analogize with, say, _vitki_/_vitak. _


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## Athaulf

Duya said:


> Back to the original question: I think that  "hrvatskom*e*" is a hypercorrection even in Croatian, i.e. that it's  "correct" but sounds stilted, but then, I'm not a native speaker (for a suitable  definition of "native" ). Since this is one of Athaulf's pet peeves, I suppose he will  comment.



I wouldn't call it a hypercorrection, since it sounds quite right intuitively. You'll sometimes hear it even in informal speech when someone is trying to speak especially slowly and clearly for some reason. It does sound formal and even a bit stilted, but not in that "holier than thou" way characteristic of modern Croatian prescriptivists, if you know what I mean.


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## dudasd

Athaulf said:


> Are you sure that this is really a definite/indefinite opposition, rather than a mix-up of the the old Slavic separate endings for dative and locative? Personally, I have no feeling whatsoever for definiteness of any adjectives derived from proper nouns with _-ski _and similar endings, although this difference is crystal clear to me for most other classes of adjectives, even when it's determined only by stress (you might remember our recent discussion about this topic).
> 
> What would be the nominative definite and indefinite forms of the adjective _hrvatski_? I don't feel this adjective as carrying any definiteness information, although it declines like a long (i.e. definite) one. If I try to forcefully construct its indefinite form, I can only make a nonsense attempt to analogize with, say, _vitki_/_vitak. _


 
Really not my fault, Athaulf, that's what my grammars say...  Adjectives ending with -ski evidently don't have definite/indefinite distinction (I still prefer terms "determined" and "undetermined", but never mind) in nominative. But in genitive, dative, locative it seems they show that distinction. I agree that it can be a wrong analogy made by our linguists - putting these adjectives into the rank of those that have both forms (as you said, by mixing the defining suffixes with old Slavic endings). If we had more information about precise accents in old Slavonic, maybe we could decide if that distinction ever existed. But from pure written forms I can't conclude much. Personally, I think the role of "a, e, u" endings was a bit... overestimated during the twentieth century. The real distinction (as much as I feel it) was in "om": lepom(e) vs lepu; dobrom(e) vs dobru. But again, I'd have to recall my rusted old Slavonic... so please take all I said with a dose of reserve. 

And please let's not try to make the indefinite form of "hrvatski" - or "srpski", whatever ("hrvatask" and "srbask" or "hrvatsak" and "srpsak"?  - one of my favourite jokes, I admit... and always makes me laugh  ).


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## dudasd

A belated correction:



dudasd said:


> In this second case you can see the distinction (though it's dative, not locative): "Rječnik hrvatskoga kajkavskoga (specifying which one) književnog (specifying what kind of) jezika."


 
It was supposed to be *genitive *- my apologies because of that lapsus, and my thangs to the friend who spotted it.


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## GoyaF1RMCF

U Hrvatskoj sam jako rijetko, gotovo nikada čula *u hrvatskome, *ja osobno i ljudi iz moje blizine preferiraju *u hrvatskom.*

P.S. toolbar - alatna traka (u informatici)
      '' da li znaš '' je pravilno, ali zvuči dosta službeno, mislim da se češće čuje '' znaš da '', bar u onom dijelu Hrvatske gdje ja živim, npr. ' Da li znaš da je danas baš lijep dan? ' se čuje rijeđe od ' Znaš da je danas baš lijep dan? '


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## jacasm

Što se tiče gramatike, pravilna su sva 3 oblika: *u hrvatskom*,* u hrvatskome *i* u hrvatskomu*, ali kako se ljudi međusobno izražavaju (bilo da je riječ o slengu ili dijalektu) zavisi u kojem kraju Hrvatske se nalazite. Sva 3 oblika su u lokativu, kao što su isti s prijedlogom *na*. Dakako, smisao ili kontekst je različiti kad se upoterbljava prijedlog *u* (misli se na formu i gramatiku specifičnog jezika) i _*na*_ (kada npr. uspoređujete 2 različita jezika).



GoyaF1RMCF said:


> '' da li znaš '' je pravilno, ali zvuči dosta službeno, mislim da se češće čuje '' znaš da '', bar u onom dijelu Hrvatske gdje ja živim, npr. ' Da li znaš da je danas baš lijep dan? ' se čuje rijeđe od ' Znaš da je danas baš lijep dan? '




Htjela bih se samo pozvati na ovo, iz razloga što je točno da ljudi češće koriste ovakvu formu upitne rečenice, iako je gramatički neispravna i većinom je riječ slenga. Ako se ne želi upotrijebiti forma "*da li*" onda bi se bar trebala upotrijebiti riječca _*li*_, dakle ispravno pitanje bi glasilo: "Znaš li da je danas baš lijep dan?" Problem je u tome, što ljudi na kraju napišu bez _li_, što je definitivno gramatička pogreška.


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## GoyaF1RMCF

OK ! Hvala!


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## Athaulf

jacasm said:


> Htjela bih se samo pozvati na ovo, iz razloga što je točno da ljudi češće koriste ovakvu formu upitne rečenice, iako je gramatički neispravna i većinom je riječ slenga. Ako se ne želi upotrijebiti forma "*da li*" onda bi se bar trebala upotrijebiti riječca _*li*_, dakle ispravno pitanje bi glasilo: "Znaš li da je danas baš lijep dan?" Problem je u tome, što ljudi na kraju napišu bez _li_, što je definitivno gramatička pogreška.



Ne bih se složio.  

"Znaš da je danas baš lijep dan" je gramatički ispravna izjavna rečenica, a u hrvatskom jeziku je moguće postavljati pitanja izjavnim rečenicama s promijenjenom intonacijom. Takav način postavljanja pitanja u hrvatskom nije tako čest kao u npr. španjolskom i obično ne zvuči najbolje u formalnom pisanju, ali se definitnivno ne radi o gramatičkoj grešci, iako je istina da se u određenim dijalektima i oblicima slenga koristi češće nego u književnom jeziku.


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