# Hindi: Pronunciation of final v andy after long vowels



## Qureshpor

In a recent thread, gb stated that he would write "bartaav" as "vartaav" and that this would be pronounced as "vartaao" like "umraao".

I have always thought that words ending in "v" after a long vowel, in Hindi are pronounced with a final consonant like naav, paaNv, jhukaav and not as naao, paaNo, jhukaao. Was I wrong in my thinking? If they are indeed pronounced with a final o, then is the "v" ending just a convention?

Would "dev" be pronounced as "deo"? (devdaas/deodaas)

Similarly is gaay (cow) pronounced as "gaae" (same as "giit ko'ii gaae)?


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> In a recent thread, gb stated that he would write "bartaav" as "vartaav" and that this would be pronounced as "vartaao" like "umraao".
> 
> I have always thought that words ending in "v" after a long vowel, in Hindi are pronounced with a final consonant like naav, paaNv, jhukaav and not as naao, paaNo, jhukaao. Was I wrong in my thinking? If they are indeed pronounced with a final o, then is the "v" ending just a convention?
> 
> Would "dev" be pronounced as "deo"? (devdaas/deodaas)
> 
> Similarly is gaay (cow) pronounced as "gaae" (same as "giit ko'ii gaae)?




My 2 cents is that it is going to depend on who you talk to. Hindi is a broad range of dialects and accents.
In "standard" Hindi, I see a tendency to pronounce the aav as aao which is really aaw. 
This does not apply to dev because the o sound is an artifact of how the mouth moves to pronounce aaw,
so that aaw and aao are the same.

In any case, I would not be suprised to hear dew because v and w are allophonic to one extent or another in Hindi dialects. 

I was always under the impression that gaay was pronounced as gaaii. aay is "supposed" to be pronounced aaii, as in the
English first person pronoun "I".

Other examples are raay and bajaay.

Recently, I came across the less common spelling variant bajaae which threw me off. Based on Platts, it would seem
like this is the Urdu pronunciation???


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## lcfatima

This thread might be of interest. It addresses the variations in pronunciation and meaning of deo vs. dev.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1541398&highlight=dev


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> In a recent thread, gb stated that he would write "bartaav" as "vartaav" and that this would be pronounced as "vartaao" like "umraao".
> 
> I have always thought that words ending in "v" after a long vowel, in Hindi are pronounced with a final consonant like naav, paaNv, jhukaav and not as naao, paaNo, jhukaao. Was I wrong in my thinking? If they are indeed pronounced with a final o, then is the "v" ending just a convention?
> 
> Would "dev" be pronounced as "deo"? (devdaas/deodaas)
> 
> Similarly is gaay (cow) pronounced as "gaae" (same as "giit ko'ii gaae)?



Yes, "gaae" would be both cow and the one in "giit koii gaae"; "dev" would however be "dev", the final "v" being very much pronounced. In any "-ev" word that I can recall, "v" is retained: "sev" is another such example.

For the others, yes indeed, for me they are "paaoN", "jhukaao" and "naao" (and sometimes "naaoN"), which is what I have heard always.

The pronunciations for opinion and instead are very much "raae" and "bajaae" - no "aaii" sound is involved!


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## Alfaaz

QURESHPOR said:
			
		

> I have always thought that words ending in "v" after a long vowel, in Hindi are pronounced with a final consonant like naav, paaNv, jhukaav and not as naao, paaNo, jhukaao.


From interaction with Hindi speakers and exposure to media, it seems that many Hindi speakers pronounce all such words with a "v" at the end, unlike the "aa'o", which seems to be used more by Urdu speakers...



			
				tonyspeed said:
			
		

> Recently, I came across the less common spelling variant bajaae which threw me off. Based on Platts, it would seem
> like this is the Urdu pronunciation???


Agree and I've mostly heard the aa'o pronunciations from Urdu speakers (although many Hindi speakers use them as well), especially when comparing what is heard on Urdu and Hindi media...Umraa'o Jaan Adaa vs Umraav Jaan/Zaan Adaa...


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> This thread might be of interest. It addresses the variations in pronunciation and meaning of deo vs. dev.
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1541398&highlight=dev



Fatima SaaHibah, thank you for this link. I have added my penny's worth to it.


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## tonyspeed

http://www.forvo.com/word/बजाय/
http://www.forvo.com/word/गाय/
http://www.forvo.com/word/राय/

Could someone listen to these three sound clips and let me know if you hear aae for aay? Or do you hear aai?
The only one I even hear a s slight hint of e is for bajaay.

Maybe we are dealing with dialectal differences.

I also forgot, haay: http://www.forvo.com/word/%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AF/

For this one I hear a slight tinge of e at the end. I think the issue is there is only very slight variation between saying aae and aai,
especially when the aa takes up most of the sound.


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## tonyspeed

One more, aay: http://www.forvo.com/word/आय/


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## Ironicus

This thread has pointed up a rather large difference between Hindi and Urdu.
If a Hindi speaker says 'Welsh version',  it will often sound to an English speaker like 'Velsh wersion'. That's because Hindi *v* is like an unrounded English *w*, or like an English *v* with the lips approaching each other, but not closing fully. Neither of these sounds are native to English, so an English speaker will usually hear the one that wasn't intended (because it lacks an element he expects).
But Urdu, influenced as it is by Arabic, uses the same *w* as occurs in English in final position after a long vowel. I very rarely hear the Hindi *v* in this position from Urdu speakers.
But Urdu speakers do what English speakers can't: they produce a final *w*. This is the _w_ we are discussing here. But they can produce a final _w_ even after a preceding consonant, as in the phrase _sadjat-e-sahw_. 
I think that if you bear these facts in mind, you will be able to identify the sounds you are hearing more clearly.


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## Qureshpor

If anyone knows the way the rhyme system works in Hindi poetry, could they please answer this question. Are the following nouns and verbs allowed to rhyme in Hindi poetry?

paav (ek paav duudh), banaav (banaav-singaar), lagaav (affection/attachment), bahaav (flow)

kaamyaabii (paao), (makaan) banaao, (aag) lagaao, (paanii) bahaao


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> http://www.forvo.com/word/%E0%A4%AC%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AF/
> http://www.forvo.com/word/गाय/
> http://www.forvo.com/word/राय/
> 
> Could someone listen to these three sound clips and let me know if you hear aae for aay? Or do you hear aai?
> The only one I even hear a s slight hint of e is for bajaay.
> 
> Maybe we are dealing with dialectal differences.
> 
> I also forgot, haay: http://www.forvo.com/word/%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AF/
> 
> For this one I hear a slight tinge of e at the end. I think the issue is there is only very slight variation between saying aae and aai,
> especially when the aa takes up most of the sound.



In the four links to clips above, I hear "aai" in only the third one, and that's not a standard pronunciation as far as I am concerned - it should be "raae", not "raai". In all the other clips, I hear "aae".


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> If anyone knows the way the rhyme system works in Hindi poetry, could they please answer this question. Are the following nouns and verbs allowed to rhyme in Hindi poetry?
> 
> paav (ek paav duudh), banaav (banaav-singaar), lagaav (affection/attachment), bahaav (flow)
> 
> kaamyaabii (paao), (makaan) banaao, (aag) lagaao, (paanii) bahaao



They rhyme, but whether the poets do so or not is for someone conversant with Hindi literature could answer.


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## JaiHind

QURESHPOR said:


> Would "dev" be pronounced as "deo"? (devdaas/deodaas)
> 
> Similarly is gaay (cow) pronounced as "gaae" (same as "giit ko'ii gaae)?



It "depends". Ideally, what you say is right. "Dev" is not pronounced as "deo" but as "dev". "gaay" is not pronounced as "gaae" but as "gaay". But many people also pronounce it alternately.


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## greatbear

JaiHind said:


> "gaay" is not pronounced as "gaae" but as "gaay".



You did not get the point: the question is precisely how is this "-aay" pronounced. Could you please describe your pronunciation and/or also how do you differentiate it from "-aae"?


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## tonyspeed

I have three cases where I personally have never heard pronounced as a v in Hindi. greatbear-ji, please let me know if you have. 

paaNw, CHaaNw, gaaNw.


It is interesting that Platts gives 2 Devanagari spellings:

H گانو* गांव* _gāṅw_, or _gāṅʼo_  = H گانون* गांओं* _gāṅʼoṅ_ [Prk. *गामो*; S. ग्रामः], s.m. A village, a hamlet:—_gāṅʼo-asthān_, s.m. Site of a village (whether in ruins or still standing):—_gāṅʼo-bāsī_, s.m. (f. -_inī_ = _gāṅʼo-wāsī_ = _gāṅʼo-wālā_, q.v.:—_gāṅʼo-bāṅt_, or _gāṅʼo-baṭ_, s.f. Division of villages; division of a _taʻalluqa_ into separate villages:—_gāṅʼo-jan_, s.m. The village community:—_gāṅʼo-kā uṭhāʼo_, or _gāṅʼo-ḵẖarć_, s.m. Village expenses or charges; municipal expenses:—_gāṅʼo-kī ābādī_, s.f. The cultivation, or the population, of a village:—_gāṅʼo-kī bolī_, s.f. Rustic speech:—_gāṅʼo-wāsī_, s.m. (f. -_inī_) = _gāṅʼo-wālā_, s.m. (f. -_ī_), A villager, a rustic.

And he claims that the Prakrit spronunciation was o. (*गामो*)

This is interesting. It would seem that the Prakrit speaking forefathers had an aversion to v, preferring to say b (as we have discussed in other threads) and o. I deduce that the reintroduction of v, may have been a form of phonetic Sankritisation.

Or maybe we have Persian to thank for (re-)introducing the v sound it words such as vaqt, just as it introduced the f sound.


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> I have three cases where I personally have never heard pronounced as a v in Hindi. greatbear-ji, please let me know if you have.   paaNw, CHaaNw, gaaNw.


  Neither have I heard that "v" in these.


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## Alfaaz

tonyspeed said:
			
		

> I have three cases where I personally have never heard pronounced as a v in Hindi. greatbear-ji, please let me know if you have.
> paaNw, CHaaNw, gaaNw.


Don't mean to interrupt, but I think I have heard these pronounced with a v at the end from Hindi speakers (not influenced by Urdu), in a couple of Star Plus soaps (with the dihaati setting, exaggerated plot and loud sound effects), and also in an old artistic Jatendra and Hema Malini movie (Hema M. is a _dihaati girl_, Jetender a _doctor babu_ who has a son from a previous marriage to Sharmila Tagore's character, and the whole movie is the two of them patching up...breaking up....patching up...breaking up........and finally getting married at the end, living happily ever after)!


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## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> Don't mean to interrupt, but I think I have heard these pronounced with a v at the end from Hindi speakers (not influenced by Urdu), in a couple of Star Plus soaps (with the dihaati setting, exaggerated plot and loud sound effects), and also in an old artistic Jatendra and Hema Malini movie (Hema M. is a _dihaati girl_, Jetender a _doctor babu_ who has a son from a previous marriage to Sharmila Tagore's character, and the whole movie is the two of them patching up...breaking up....patching up...breaking up........and finally getting married at the end, living happily ever after)!



I was talking of standard Hindi, so I don't know what kind of dialect from which _dehaat_ you are talking about, Alfaaz: in addition, too many non-native Hindi speakers work in the film and television industry today. However, if you have any examples of what you are saying you heard on YouTube or somewhere else, that'd be great. Same for the Jeetendra-Malini movie.

@tonyspeed: I would request you to avoid putting any honorific suffixes like saahib or jii with my nick, if possible. The subcontinental practice of lengthening people's names with useless honorifics is odious to me.


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## Alfaaz

greatbear said:
			
		

> However, if you have any examples of what you are saying you heard on YouTube or somewhere else, that'd be great.


It would probably be hard to locate the TV programs, but here are some YT Titles: 
AURON KA CHEHRA PAANV TERA DIWANA HAI SAARA GAANV TERA - Mahendra - LADY KILLER..............................both paanv and gaavn 
8--Lata Mangeshkar - Aaj Kal Paanv Jamin Par - Ghar [1978] - Kusum Sharma..............................................................................this lady seems to be singing it as paanv, whereas Lata M. sang it paa'on
chhota sa ghar hoga badlon ki chhaon mein... kishor da.................................................................................................................panv, ganv, and chhanv (but he seems to have sung only panv with the v?)
gaanvke doctor...............................................................................................................................................both pronunciations can be heard


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