# Irish Gaelic:  influence on English grammar



## L'irlandais

Hello again,
The influence of Irish on the way we speak English goes way beyond the odd loan-word being inyroduced into everyday speech.  We often say things like "Have you any English?" instead of "Are you able to speak much English?"
Literally from the Irish "An bhfuil aon Béarla agat?"

Many of the unusual (or should that be charming) turns of phrase in our colouful dialect might not stem from this borrowing.

  Does anyone have some clear-cut examples of this phenomenon?


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## Bobbum

My father was a native Scot and often gave the toast _Lang may your lum reek. Lum_ meaning fireplace and _reek _meaning smoke. I've often wondered are these words Gaelic? _Auld Lang Syne_ seems closer to German: _Alt Lange Seit. _I know the Highland Scots are Gaels, but what about the rest?


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## Banbha

Another thing that I find interesting with respect to grammar (prepositions) is the way we describe peoples personalities or looks using ''ar'' for ''on'' which is a direct translation from irish

Like:
She has an awful nose on her
She has an awful bad tongue = she is very cheeky
Do you have any money on you
You have an awful head on ya = Your very forgetful
You have a great head on ya = Your very intelligent

Im not sure about the third one whether other dialects would say have you any money on you or just have you any money. I would always say the former but the others are difinetely because everything in irish be it thirst, hunger, tiredness, fear, big ears, a crooked nose or a nasty tongue would all be 'on' you as opposed to being hungry/afraid or having hunger, thirst, big ears etc as is the case with most european languages


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## Pedro y La Torre

There's also the famous "to be after doing something" and "do be" (both of which I use regularly).



Bobbum said:


> My father was a native Scot and often gave the toast _Lang may your lum reek. Lum_ meaning fireplace and _reek _meaning smoke. I've often wondered are these words Gaelic? _Auld Lang Syne_ seems closer to German: _Alt Lange Seit. _I know the Highland Scots are Gaels, but what about the rest?



Lowland Scots are not now considered Gaels (though they were in the distant past). They are more historically related to their English (Anglo-Saxon) neighbours than the Highlanders. The local dialect, Scots, is a modern form of Northumbrian Old English.


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## Tjahzi

Indeed, I cannot think of any Germanic cognate of _lum_ but _reek_ is strikingly similar to Swedish _rök_ (yes, long _ö_), which in turn is related to German _Rauch_ and......English _reek_, it turns out.


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## L'irlandais

Hello,
A little off topic, but since it's loan-words in English we're talking about, I'll chime in.  Perdo is right in saying, it's Scots and not ‘Gàidhlig’, the Gaelic language spoken in Scotland.

Careful Tjahzi "reek" doesn't mean "stink" in Scots, as it does in the English sense of reek to stink, similar to German and Dutch for "smell".
However in Scots it clearly means "smoke", from Old Northumbrian English / from Old Norse perhaps.
For example one pet-name for Edinburgh's is Auld Reekie  (Old smoky)

I understand "lum" to mean "chimney".  So ‘lang may your lum reek ’ literally, "long may your chimney smoke", so figuratively it means _"may you always be prosperous enough to have fuel for the fire"._

Post script :  On the subject of Irish grammatical loans, I'd be interested to see the original "_as gaeilge_" for the examples given, *más é do thoil é*.


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## Bobbum

After the toast my father always added with a chuckle, "Wi' other folks coal."
 I had my DNA testedwith FamiyTree and it goes back to the town of York in the 9th or 10th century, which was then a stronghold of Danish vikings. I guess the British Isles, being as far west as you could go at that time, was a pretty eclectic mixture of cultures.


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## L'irlandais

Hi Bobbum,
Have you not heard of *Navigatio Sancti Brendani Abbatis *(‘_Voyage of Saint Brendan the a_bbot') then?
Written around 750AD, and interested stirred-up more recently by Tim Severn's voyage in 1978.

_*An Loingseoir *(Breandán) _ 484-577AD.  He was known as _the navigator_.  In fairness the story remains unproven, but it's defo more than a ledgend, this epic voyage.





L'irlandais said:


> Many of the unusual (or should that be charming) turns of phrase in our colouful dialect might they not stem from this borrowing.
> 
> Does anyone have some clear-cut examples of this phenomenon?


However I'd like to keep this discussion on topic, see above.


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## Bobbum

I read the Severn's book when it first came out. Their actual point of departure was an island off the coast of Scotland. 
I didn't mean to steer you off course.


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## Pedro y La Torre

I wonder in areas where the Scottish form of Gaelic is the majority or historical language, are similar grammatical "loan" functions also present?


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## Bobbum

Me again, folks. I think I've found the origin of _lum_. Cumbric. There's some dispute, but I think the aboriginal Britons spoke three tongues: Cumbric, Old Welsh and Brythonic Pictish, and may have been able to understand each other. The examples I found on-line sound right out of _Lord of the Rings._ One site thinks _lum_ was originally derived from _columbo_ or keeper of doves, but what that has to do with chimney I don't see. I tend to over-simplify things, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. It's a very complicated area of expertise.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Interesting. Thanks for that Bobbum.


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## L'irlandais

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I wonder in areas where the Scottish form of Gaelic is the majority or historical language, are similar grammatical "loan" functions also present?


Hi Pedro,
It's a good question, to which I don't know the answer.  However, a quick browse on the www reveals :  that Scots is spoken by far more people than Gaelic (30% compared to 2% by some older accounts).  Yet the language receives precious little recognition or public funding in comparision.  Scots has many more loan-words from Danish than from Gaelic, for example bearn (child, Da barn), flit (move, Da flytte).





> Danish :  Jeg _kender_ ham ikke.
> Scots  :  A dinna *ken* him
> English : I don't _know_ him
> Gaelic :  Chan eil_ iólas _agam air


Since it also has some Gaelic loan-words it's not impossible a similar grammatical borrowing went on.  Though I suspect there are more examples of borrowing from Frisian grammar than from na Gàidhlig.
(Not sure what chance we have either of a Scottish Gaelic speaker chiming in here on WR, to confirm or deny my point of view.)


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## Wynn Mathieson

Gaelic Influence on Lowland Scottish: Elisabeth Westergaard, in _Anglia - Zeitschrift für englische Philologie_, Volume 1937, Issue 61:


> _*lum*_, chimney, may be Gaelic _laom_, blaze; but the OED connects it with O. Fr. _lum_, light.


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## L'irlandais

Nice one Wynn Mathieson,
I still agree with Bobbum on this, tracing the origins of borrowed words is very much a complicated subject, with no clear-cut right answers.
Go raibh maith agat.


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## uin

Banbha said:


> Another thing that I find interesting with respect to grammar  (prepositions) is the way we describe peoples personalities or looks  using ''ar'' for ''on'' which is a direct translation from irish
> 
> Like:
> She has an awful nose on her
> She has an awful bad tongue = she is very cheeky
> Do you have any money on you
> You have an awful head on ya = Your very forgetful
> You have a great head on ya = Your very intelligent


I'm not so sure about this construction being Irish grammar on loan, simply because I'd say it's extremely common just about anywhere in Britain. An expression like, for example, "She's got a right gob on her" sounds very _English _to me.


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## L'irlandais

Hello uin,
Welcome to the forum.  
I agree that it'd be nice if Banbha gave examples in Gaelic of the sentences.

That this construction is wide-spread in Britian, doesn't surprise me as both islands were Celtic to being with.


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## franc 91

Have a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-English
http://www.uni-due.de/IERC


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## L'irlandais

Thanks Franc91,
Excellent resources.

I wish to give a clearer example of what I was looking for in the Original post :





> 'And you're thinking that if we won a Triple Crown now, they'd probably be giving out to us! says Munster rugbyman Donncha O'Callaghan.


  His meaning is :  People would be complaining about the team.

This usage is fairly common all around Ireland, as far as I know, rather like _to complain_. (nb. _gearán a dhéanamh faoi rud _= to complain about something)

While _íde béil _translates to verbal abuse, giving out = *tabhair amach*, is not as strong.  In support of my suggestion, the verbal noun is used as follows - _íde na muc agus na madraí *a thabhairt do *dhuine_
In my example above from this week's Irish press, remark that Donncha O'Callaghan says _"to *give out to*" _so looks to me to be a good example of "_Gaeilge : Grammar on loan_" in our everyday usage of English.

 any thoughts?  anybody?


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## Pedro y La Torre

I think you're right l'Irlandais. To give out to is so widely used now that it's often forgotten where it comes from. Same thing with ''to be after -ing''


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## L'irlandais

Thanks for that Pedro,
So I imagine one characteristic that's coming across here is that it's mostly _idiomatic forms _commonly used by Irish-speaking people which are often found being used in everyday English.
The meaning of these idiomatic expressions might not be immediately appearant to a native English-speaker.

For example :
In Donegal they might say "*tá mé ag teacht chugam féin*"* (_I'm coming back to myself_) which in English now-a-days gives rise to the expression when ill, _ I was not (feeling) myself _.
However being from Munster I'm more used to hearing "*Tá mé ag dul i bhfeabhas*" or maybe "_Tá feabhas orm_" _I'm getting better_" or _"I am better"_.

*Question :  is this an idiomatic way of saying "_Tá biseach ag teacht orm_"


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## Sepia

Bobbum said:


> My father was a native Scot and often gave the toast _Lang may your lum reek. Lum_ meaning fireplace and _reek _meaning smoke. I've often wondered are these words Gaelic? _Auld Lang Syne_ seems closer to German: _Alt Lange Seit. _I know the Highland Scots are Gaels, but what about the rest?



You are right, there is a slight resemblance. 

But it is even closer to some of the dialects spoken in Jutland - at least some 50 years ago. "Lang syne" would be "laeng sin" in the dialect that my grandmother spoke - the middle-eastern part of Jutland.

There are numerous other words in those dialects that have similarities Scottish-English and Gaelic words. Even when spelt totally different they often pronounced the same. They also have grammar that is very similar to English grammar.

reek would be "røg" in standard Danish. In Jutland similar, but stressed differently.

As mentioned up thread, Danish for "child" is "barn, (plur.) børn". That is close, but the pronounciation in Scottish and Jutish dialect is almost identical. 

And grammarwise: "a child, the child" in standard Danish: "et barn, barnet". In Jutland: "en barn, æ barn". There is only one gender. Standard Danish has two, some dialects even had three, not so many decades ago. "æ" is used exactly like "the" in English.


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## franc 91

Bionn siad i gconai ag gearàn agus ag tabhairt amach. -They (na daltai) are always complaining and giving out (sorry about the missing fadas - I don't have them yet) - this comes from Shortcuts to Success - The Irish Oral and is one possible answer to 
Ar mhaith leat bheith i do mhuinteoir? Cén fàth?


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## L'irlandais

Go raibh míle maith agat Franc 91,

A quick cheat for the *síntí fada *is to google the word you want, generally you can cut and paste from there.

Otherwise if you have the patience you might wish to see if these work :





> On the right keyboard (numbers lock on)
> Hold the Alt key + type-
> 0193 for Á
> 0225 - á
> 0201 - É
> 0233 - é
> 0205 - Í
> 0237 - í
> 0211 - Ó
> 0243 - ó
> 0218 - Ú
> 0250 - ú
> Source : Daltaí boards


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## Saoirse_lee

How about answering a question with a verb, rather than a yes or no. Same as in Irish.

Example: Did you go to the shops? I did. (instead of simply "yes").

Or one that was brought to my attention by an English friend, saying "I'm after" meaning "I have" or "I have just". Example "I'm after washing my hair". I suspect that come from Irish "Tá mé tár éis...".


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## L'irlandais

Hello Saoirse,
Nice one, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm on about.  

By the way, welcome to the forum.


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## Pedro y La Torre

The answering with the same verb, instead of yes or no is indeed very Irish, sometimes I even carry it through to French, which causes some amusement.


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## franc 91

And saying - and me being there as well or starting with - and wasn't it he who was there doing it?


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## L'irlandais

Great stuff, I agree it's something one hears alot in Munster.  Only how would we say it in Irish ?  A weak attempt from me follows :





> agus nach raibh sé fein ata ar dhéanamh ansin é?


So, does it map directly for Irish usage?  Any advances on my effort?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Might the Irish use of sure, pronounced "shur'" in this case, be derived from Irish?

"Shur' (Sure) didn't I tell you that yesterday" etc.?


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