# Pronunciation of Gouda: [x] or [ɣ] for /g/?



## clevermizo

Hi all -

I don't speak Dutch but I have learned a little about its phonology, and I'm aware that there is regional variation.

I'm curious about the common pronunciation of the place name _Gouda_. This comes from a thread in the English Only forum where we discussed the common pronunciations (or mispronunciations  ) of this name in English in reference to the cheese.

The wiki entry for this name specifies a voiced fricative [ɣ]. I've been led to believe that /g/ is normally voiceless in at least the Netherlands. Could anyone shed some light on this? Is the voiced pronunciation typical of that particular region? Is it specific to that region? (Meaning that other Netherlands Dutch speakers will pronounce it voiceless.)

Thanks!


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## zazkia

Well, the G in gouda -in Dutch- should like your coughing up snot or imitating to snore, so that it is voiceless but not exactly soundless, 
In the south it is pronounced differently, more like the CH in czech, I guess that doesn't help you much either. 
Why is it that English-speakers pronounce the ou-vowel as oo (like in tool)? It should sound more like ow.

I'm trying to find a snot parallel for the southern g but that is too hard... it is however not soundless, unlike the northern g. This means that a male pronounces it lower than a female does, unlike the northern g that sounds the same for men and women. It is like keeping the back of your throat half tight and then push air and sound through it. Or so.


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## clevermizo

zazkia said:


> Well, the G in gouda -in Dutch- should like your coughing up snot or imitating to snore, so that it is voiceless but not exactly soundless,
> In the south it is pronounced differently, more like the CH in czech, I guess that doesn't help you much either.
> Why is it that English-speakers pronounce the ou-vowel as oo (like in tool)? It should sound more like ow.
> 
> I'm trying to find a snot parallel for the southern g but that is too hard... it is however not soundless, unlike the northern g. This means that a male pronounces it lower than a female does, unlike the northern g that sounds the same for men and women. It is like keeping the back of your throat half tight and then push air and sound through it. Or so.



Thanks Zazkia. I've heard the standard Dutch (Netherlands, not Belgium) pronunciation of the "g" and it's as you describe: this is IPA [x]. My question comes because the Wiki entry claims it is [ɣ] in this word, which sounds a bit more like the standard German or French [r] (like a gargling noise), and I was curious if this was in fact the pronunciation in the region near or in Gouda.


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## Bellator

I would suggest that the g in Gouda sounds like j in Spanish (jamás). But in the south of the Netherlands, the g becomes softer and sounds more like the g in Spanish (gente)


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## zazkia

clevermizo said:


> Thanks Zazkia. I've heard the standard Dutch (Netherlands, not Belgium) pronunciation of the "g" and it's as you describe: this is IPA. My question comes because the Wiki entry claims it is [ɣ] in this word, which sounds a bit more like the standard German or French [r] (like a gargling noise), and I was curious if this was in fact the pronunciation in the region near or in Gouda.



I see what you mean, it is recognized at wiki as a 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative  [ɣ]
I'm pretty convinced that it is not voiced and that it is neither http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative  [x] because that is already the soft-g that is spoken in the south of the netherlands. I guess that can be spoken with or without voice. 

I guess the Wiki entry then is wrong and your suggestion of the  [x] is not much better
because about half of the Dutch people pronounces the R like the French R already,  thus [x] and that is definitely different from the G and indeed, not voiceless. 
One can speak a French R with pitches, like gurgling, so that you can gurgle frere jacques, for instance. For instance the Hague-people have a French R, probably since the French invaded us in 1802. Try humming frere jacques when you're imitating to snore! Impossible!
May be a new symbol is justified?
The other half that has no French R has a rolling R, that differs per village, unlike the G that is region bound. Near Rotterdam, and Gouda too they have a rolling R from the back of the throat. Its sound is like slavic Rs but its made in the back of the throat , with the uvula rather than the tongue. Of course, younger Dutch girls have the R pronounced much more like the English.. [i.e. not]  
But that is irrelevant of course, because the R does not appear in "Gouda kaas". 
It could be convenient though if you also want to know the correct pronounciation of the word "Edammer"


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## HKK

Hi Clevermizo
In the North, <g> and <ch> are both pronounced the same.
In the South there is still a distinction between voiced <g> and unvoiced <ch>. 

We Belgians pronounce these sounds more fronted than the Dutch. I would say that the Belgian sounds are velar [ɣ]/[x] and the Dutch sound is uvular [χ], but Wikipedia says the distinction is between palatal (B) and velar (Nl).


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## clevermizo

HKK said:


> We Belgians pronounce these sounds more fronted than the Dutch. I would say that the Belgian sounds are velar [ɣ]/[x] and the Dutch sound is uvular [χ], but Wikipedia says the distinction is between palatal (B) and velar (Nl).



Thanks HKK. I listened to the link to pronunciation of Gouda on the wiki page and it definitely does not sound like voice [ɣ] to me and much more so uvular like your guess. This also confirms what Zazkia is saying above about how the /g/ is softer than a velar fricative, though still voiceless.

Thanks all for the help.


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