# When to use של/construct form for 'of'?



## airelibre

For example, how should I know whether to say ספר סודות, or ספר של סודות?


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## enlish4life

you can't say ספר סודות but you can say ספר הסודות , what's the meaning of ספר של סודות at all?

i think that there is only one form and is של

if you'll give me another examples, i think i'll can help you even more.


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## airelibre

The example was book of secrets.
Ok, what I want to know is why is it ספר תורה (book of Torah) but בחוף של טרפאטוני (beach of Trappatoni) sorry, those were Te first examples I thought of!


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## arbelyoni

Both ספר סודות and ספר של סודות are forms of סמיכות (construct state) and they are practically the same; you may use them alternatively.
The difference between סמיכות רגילה (e.g ספר סודות) and סמיכות מפורקת (e.g ספר של סודות) is a matter of style and nuances. In Modern Hebrew סמיכות מפורקת is favored in most cases, whereas סמיכות רגילה is used in a limited set of fixed terms, expressions, titles and names.

Read here: http://www.safa-ivrit.org/style/smihut_types.php
And here: http://www.zuckermann.org/pdf/Hybridity_versus_Revivability.pdf (page 50)


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## origumi

In addition to arbelyoni's good answer: the two types of construct state are not always interchangeable. For example, בית ספר (school) cannot be בית של ספר, and ביתו של פו (Winnie-the-Pooh's house) cannot be בית פו. So there are rules (informal ones I think) to practice.


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## OsehAlyah

origumi said:


> ... and ביתו של פו (Winnie-the-Pooh's house) cannot be בית פו.


I hope it's OK to ask this in this thread. But I always wanted to know why is it ביתו של פו  and not בית של פו? What purpose is the final vav serving in the word for house?


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## arbelyoni

> ... I always wanted to know why is it ביתו של פו  and not בית של פו? What purpose is the final vav serving in the word for house?



The final Vav is a possessive suffix (his), and the entire phrase is another form of סמיכות called סמיכות כפולה.


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## Aoyama

> בית ספר (school) cannot be בית של ספר,


 that is true for the meaning "school", but what about if you mean "The house of the book" (which is the original meaning of "school" in Hebrew).
 ביתו של פו is a pleonastic (redundant) construction, very common in Hebrew. The vav at the end of ba'it is already a possessive marker (ending/suffix) of the third person (here Pooh).But בית של פו is also possible. בית פו would mean "the house of Pooh" taken in the sense of "the house for all 'Poohes'", "Pooh(es)'house"...


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## OsehAlyah

arbelyoni said:


> The final Vav is a possessive suffix (his), and the entire phrase is another form of סמיכות called סמיכות כפולה.


Thanks arbelyoni. Surprisingly I actually did know the purpose that the final vav serves on the nouns, making them possessive. I understand that a bait בית would mean a house whereas beito ביתו would mean his house. However, if the expression I'm questioning were to be translated into English it would be "His house of Pooh" which doesn't really sound right. Therefore, my question. What purpose is the final vav serving is this specific type of smichut ביתו של פו? And how is it different from the smichut without the final vav בית של פו?


Aoyama said:


> ביתו של פו is a pleonastic (redundant) construction, very common in Hebrew. The vav at the end of ba'it is already a possessive marker (ending/suffix) of the third person (here Pooh).But בית של פו is also possible. בית פו would mean "the house of Pooh" taken in the sense of "the house for all 'Poohes'", "Pooh(es)'house"...


Thank you Aoyama. I would love to know the difference between the two so that I could decide when to use which. Since Hebrew translates much more naturally into Russian I wonder if these two smichut translated to Russian would expose the difference between them better?


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## tFighterPilot

Well, בית של פו doesn't make much sense. It basically means "A house that belongs to pooh". However הבית של פו and ביתו של פו mean the same thing. Not sure which is more correct, but the former is used more often.


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## Aoyama

> Well, בית של פו doesn't make much sense. It basically means "A house that belongs to pooh".


 That is true. That would also roughly be the meaning of בית פו (as some kind of big sign in front of a shop or a coffee shop). Not really idiomatic but (to me) still theoretically possible.


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