# Swedish: adjective "förre förra, sista siste"



## allude

Hi, can someone kindly explain the way to use sista and siste, förre and förra. Have checked previous threads, seems it's depending on the gender of the noun. But I still can't get a clue how to distinguish "gender" for things.  
Thank you.


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## Warped

_[gender] the state of being male or female_

With this sentence in mind, do you now understand it?


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## Dan2

allude said:


> But I still can't get a clue how to distinguish "gender" *for things*.





Warped said:


> [gender] the state of being male or female


I'm pretty sure he knows that.  I think he's saying that he has no idea how he should know that in Swedish "vägg" (for ex.) is common gender while "golv" is neuter gender, since both are "things".  My answer would be that Swedish, like most European languages, has "grammatical gender", which simply has to be learned as you learn each word (because it's arbitrary - a famous example is that in French, the word for "sun" is masculine and for "moon" feminine, while in German the opposite is true).

The question of the -e vs -a ending is a separate one, which I'll leave to the native speakers.


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## Warped

My reply was about being male or female, and this is only applicable to both humans and animals -- not things.

Swedish used to have four grammatical and natural genders: neutrum, reale, maskulinum, and femininum. Neutrum had all the words that began with "ett," and reale had all the words that began with "en." _Edit:_ "ett" and "en" are the words' declensions: "ett hus" "en kille" and so on.

Maskulinum and femininum differed from the fact that maskulinum was used with words that were of masculine gender and had a suffix -e in the definite adjective and noun forms: "Mannen" "Sjuke"

Femininum was, in turn, all those feminine words that were distinguishable as such, particularly with the suffixes -erska and -inna. Also, a singular indefinite feminine word usually ended with -a or a consonant: "flicka" "sjuksköterska" "ryttarinna"

Note that some of these femininum words are still in use. "Sjuksköterska" is used when talking about a female nurse, whereas "sjukskötare" is used when talking about a male nurse.

When it comes to the feminine and masculine genders, they have merged into a single gender, utrum, which was reale in the past. Nowadays, in modern language, you don't see this masculine-feminine usage so often anymore. Though, as seen in the original post (OP), a remnant of the masculine and feminine genders can still be seen even today, especially in the singular definite adjective form. You can say, "USA:s förre president fördes till sjukhus." (U.S.A.'s former president (who is male) was taken to the hospital.) One could say, "USA:s förra president ..." but it wouldn't be certain which sex we would be talking about -- either male or female. Only the fact that the former president was taken to the hospital is relevant.

For reference, "utrum" = common gender; "neutrum" = neuter.


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## Lugubert

Have to disagree a lot here.


Warped said:


> My reply was about being male or female, and this is only applicable to both humans and animals -- not things.
> 
> Swedish used to have four grammatical and natural genders: neutrum, reale, maskulinum, and femininum. Neutrum had all the words that began with "ett," and reale had all the words that began with "en." _Edit:_ "ett" and "en" are the words' declensions: "ett hus" "en kille" and so on.



Calling the indefinite articles (en, ett) "declension" is fundamentally wrong.



> Maskulinum and femininum differed from the fact that maskulinum was used with words that were of masculine gender and had a suffix -e in the definite adjective and noun forms: "Mannen" "Sjuke"



Counterexample: newspaper 'tidning'. Definite form 'tidning_e_n'. At least in Western Sweden, feminine. Famously, the evening paper G-T used to have pink first and last pages. It was colloquially called 'den lell_a_ rö_a_' _the little red one_.



> Femininum was, in turn, all those feminine words that were distinguishable as such, particularly with the suffixes -erska and -inna. Also, a singular indefinite feminine word usually ended with -a or a consonant: "flicka" "sjuksköterska" "ryttarinna"
> 
> Note that some of these femininum words are still in use. "Sjuksköterska" is used when talking about a female nurse, whereas "sjukskötare" is used when talking about a male nurse.



That's Finland. In Sweden, a male nurse, too, is a 'sjuksköterska'.



> When it comes to the feminine and masculine genders, they have merged into a single gender, utrum, which was reale in the past. Nowadays, in modern language, you don't see this masculine-feminine usage so often anymore. Though, as seen in the original post (OP), a remnant of the masculine and feminine genders can still be seen even today, especially in the singular definite adjective form. You can say, "USA:s förre president fördes till sjukhus." (U.S.A.'s former president (who is male) was taken to the hospital.) One could say, "USA:s förra president ..." but it wouldn't be certain which sex we would be talking about -- either male or female. Only the fact that the former president was taken to the hospital is relevant.
> 
> For reference, "utrum" = common gender; "neutrum" = neuter.



The rather official 'Svenska skrivregler' (Swedish rules for writing) states that (my translation) the _e_-form is normally used for a title or occupation, unless that's an unambiguously feminine noun. An adjective used as a noun will have the _e_-form when it refers to a men, and in most cases for general reference, but always the _a_-form when referring to a woman.


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## Warped

Lugubert said:


> Calling the indefinite articles (en, ett) "declension" is fundamentally wrong.


You are right. I tried to come up with a fancy word but ended up making one too hastily.


Lugubert said:


> That's Finland. In Sweden, a male nurse, too, is a 'sjuksköterska'.


That's something new to me.


Lugubert said:


> The rather official 'Svenska skrivregler' (Swedish rules for writing) states that (my translation) the _e_-form is normally used for a title or occupation, unless that's an unambiguously feminine noun. An adjective used as a noun will have the _e_-form when it refers to a men, and in most cases for general reference, but always the _a_-form when referring to a woman.


Can you link the page here for reference? It is, however, general practice to use -e form to refer to males and -a to females or males and whatever. Read further:

Första hjälpen i svenska

Hasses SPRÅKLÅDA: Adjektiv i bestämd form, -e eller -a?

(And possibly even more sites.)

I wouldn't expect someone to say/write (other than in formal mails/messages or to deliberately highlight the male gender), "Min end*e* son," (My only son) but rather, "Min enda son." After all, the latter one is in common use. Though, the titles you mentioned is good usage: for example, "Alexander den stor*e*."


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## Lugubert

Warped said:


> Can you link the page here for reference?



Pages 43-45 in the 1991 edition. Current version  (2008) is ISBN 978-91-47-08460-9. 



> It is, however, general practice to use -e form to refer to males and -a to females or males and whatever.



I don't think that contradicts what I wrote. I mainly agree. 



> I wouldn't expect someone say/write (other than in formal mails/messages or to deliberately highlight the male gender), "Min end*e* son," (My only son) but rather, "Min enda son." After all, the latter one is in common use. Though, the titles you mentioned is good usage: for example, "Alexander den stor*e*."



You won't catch me saying or writing "Min enda son". Try Swedish: Den unge mannen/ den unga mannen


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## Warped

Lugubert said:


> I don't think that contradicts what I wrote. I mainly agree.


Ah, I thought the clause "..., and in most cases for general reference, ..." belonged to the first one (about -e).



Lugubert said:


> You won't catch me saying or writing "Min enda son". Try Swedish: Den unge mannen/ den unga mannen


That's understandable. May I just correct what I wrote in my reply: Of course, I _do expect _to see someone write or say the form with the -e, but frankly, not so often, at least.


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## Lugubert

There are some interesting differences in Swedish between both sides of the Baltic. Maybe the e-frequency is one of them. It certainly differs between Stockholm and Göteborg.


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