# non avrei mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe arrivato



## giuggiola91

Salve a tutti, è corretto tradurre la frase " non avrei mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe arrivato" con "i would have never thought this moment would have come"
Grazie mille


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## PatsRule

giuggiola91 said:


> *I* would have never thought this moment would (have) come"


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## giuggiola91

thanks a lot! could you explain why "have" can be omitted? )


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## PatsRule

giuggiola91 said:


> thanks a lot! could you explain why "have" can be omitted? )



Because "would have" indicates something that never happened.

By the way, I think a more grammatically correct version would be: "I never would have thought that this moment would come"


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## giuggiola91

thank you!


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## PatsRule

giuggiola91 said:


> thank you!



prego!


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## Teerex51

giuggiola91 said:


> ...tradurre la frase " non avrei mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe arrivato"



IMHO, a more natural way of expressing this is "I never thought this moment would come". I believe two _woulds _in one sentence is one _would _too many


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## curiosone

Teerex51 said:


> IMHO, a more natural way of expressing this is "I never thought this moment would come". I believe two _woulds _in one sentence is one _would _too many




And another way of saying it (freer transation) could be "I never thought it would come to this."


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## joanvillafane

Hi curiosone - your much "freer" translation changes the meaning, at least for me. 
"I never thought this moment would come" implies some sort of satisfaction although it's true giugggiola did not give us any context. (I'm sure I said this about a hundred times last year when I was in Italy)
but "I never thought it would come to this" sounds like something you say when things go wrong.


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## Odysseus54

Teerex51 said:


> IMHO, a more natural way of expressing this is "I never thought this moment would come". I believe two _woulds _in one sentence is one _would _too many




I was thinking exactly the same.  

Is there any context where the " I would have never thought.. " variant would be preferable ?


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## Teerex51

_I would have never thought it was possible to fly a plane blindfolded 

_


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## PatsRule

Teerex51 said:


> IMHO, a more natural way of expressing this is "I never thought this moment would come". I believe two _woulds _in one sentence is one _would _too many



I completely agree with you T.rex that your sentence is a more natural, simple way of saying it, and probably used more frequently to simply state this "thought".  
However, the question to be asked is does the speaker want to simply say "I never thought..." or give it that extra emphasis.
"I never would have thought..." gives the sentence a bit more emphasis  on the fact that the speaker never really imagined that this moment  would ever come.
Just my opinion.

BTW, do these differences exist in Italian?  Isn't "avrei mai" = would have; and "sarebbe" = would?


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## Teerex51

Hi Pat, I hear what you're saying. 
The question is, how important is that "extra emphasis"? Does it justify the creation of a clunky sentence with two _woulds_ in it? (I was actually taught that should be avoided).

As for your final question, "avrei mai" is the conditional mood of the auxiliary verb "avere" (_to have)_ + _never/ever_, "sarebbe" is the conditional of "essere" (_to be). _On their own they mean little...
If you could put together a couple of sample sentences, we could give it a shot.
And, finally, tense agreement in Italian mostly follows different rules. I don't think we want to open that "Box of Pandoras"* 


*malapropism intentional


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## PatsRule

Teerex51 said:


> The question is, how important is that "extra emphasis"? *Right.  The speaker will have to make that decision.*
> 
> I don't think we want to open that "Box of Pandoras" *I mistakenly thought is was a simple translation of avrei mai = never would have and sarebbe = would, but I guess it depends on the context - so I agree, we'll keep that for another thread * *Thank you, though*


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## giuggiola91

joanvillafane said:


> Hi curiosone - your much "freer" translation changes the meaning, at least for me.
> "I never thought this moment would come" implies some sort of satisfaction although *it's true giugggiola did not give us any context*. (I'm sure I said this about a hundred times last year when I was in Italy)
> but "I never thought it would come to this" sounds like something you say when things go wrong.


Sorry, anyway the context is positive, I want to use this sentence because I've graduated after several difficult moments 
Thank you all guys! However I have a doubt : is "would come"  (in this sentence) a future in the past?  I am struggling with the difference between "would HAVE come" and "would come " :/


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## PatsRule

giuggiola91 said:


> Sorry, anyway the context is positive, I want to use this sentence because I've graduated after several difficult moments
> Thank you all guys! However I have a doubt : is "would come"  (in this sentence) a future in the past?  I am struggling with the difference between "would HAVE come" and "would come " :/



Ok, now that we have context giuggiola91... 

If you've overcome many difficult moments leading up to this point and now you are finally graduating, then I would say:
"I never thought this moment would come" = Finally this moment is here, it's been a stuggle and I never thought this moment would be here, but now it is here.

Saying: "I would have never thought this moment would come" would change the meaning to: you or someone else never thinking that you would be able to graduate; i.e., it's very surprising (that's the emphasis I was talking about before)

I hope this helps and congratulations on your graduation!!!


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## Teerex51

Giuggiola, it is a _future in the pas_t and tense agreement dictates the choice of _"would come" _ (And I'll join Pat in congratulating you on your achievement)


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## giuggiola91

Thank you everyone! now I've understood


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## PatsRule

If you don't mind a small question

Why didn't you use "non ho pensato mai..." o "non ho mai pensato..."


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## giuggiola91

PatsRule said:


> If you don't mind a small question
> 
> Why didn't you use "non ho pensato mai..."




mmm...It think "non ho mai pensato" is incorrect in this kind of sentence but, to be honest, I am not able to explain why...it simply sounds more natural to me "non avrei mai pensato" instead of "non ho mai pensato"... Hope somebody else could help you better, I'm not good at explaining grammar ((((((((((((


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## marco 1958

Dunque: ricapitolando ci sono 2 questioni sul tappeto, adesso.
Per fortuna tutti diciamo:
I never thought this moment would come. It's spoken language, I use it, so it's fine. You have got permission to use it as well.
Aveva ragione Teerex, pertanto al #7
Ma io -che ho studiato Inglese nel 1976 a Cambridge England- e dunque sono vecchio e pure saccente, penso che ciò sia errato, checché ne dicano i madrelingua 
La versione esatta di questa frase è: I *had* never thought this moment *might *come. Perché il momento è venuto: poteva venire, ed è venuto. Might è il condizionale di may: it might come, it came, in fact.
Vediamo ora l'uso del simple past.
I never thought = un momento preciso nel passato remoto (simple past) è errato in questo caso. I never thought, quando? Ieri? Nel 1967?)
I had never thought = un momento indefinito nel passato, che comunque si è compiuto (past perfect).

Seconda questione posta da PatsRule, si può dire
_Non ho mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe potuto arrivare?_
Non si dice: l'azione è abituale nel passato, dunque bisogna utilizzare assolutamente l'imperfetto.
*A meno che, PatsRule,* tu non voglia intendere invece:
Ti giuro, amico mio, sino ad oggi *(oggi: cioè un passato molto vicino= obbligatorio l'uso del pass. prossimo)* non ho mai creduto che questo momento potesse arrivare. E invece sono qua, sull'altare, vestito come un pinguino, con un mazzo di carciofi in mano ad aspettare una scema vestita di bianco!
Correggete pure il mio italiano ma non il mio Inglese, mi arrabbio moltissimo!
A proposito: sono un novizio del FORUM, come si fa a mettere la firma tipo la frase di TREX (quella: Anon circa 1940?)
Thx in advns 4 ur help. Ciaooooo


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## Teerex51

marco 1958 said:


> Ma io -che ho studiato Inglese nel 1976 a Cambridge England- (...) La versione esatta di questa frase è: I *had never thought this moment might come*



My advice? Ask for a refund  Your sentence is unidiomatic. Sorry.


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## PatsRule

Ciao Marco1958 and welcome to the forum!  

Permettetemi innanzitutto vi ringrazio molto per la tua spiegazione alla mia domanda. Sono molto grato!

With  regards to the thread's phrase, I wish my Italian were at such a level  that I could respond to you in Italian; unfortunately it is not.

Before  the OP provided the context, I assumed she wanted to say "I would have  never thought that...", i.e., it never occurred to me that this moment  would (ever) come.    Because, as I understand it, "avrei mai" is conditional.  However after the context was provided, I  understood that soon she will be graduating and is now thinking to  herself that she never thought she'd get to this moment.  

"I had  never thought..." is used when the "thought" itself ended in the past,  as in "Until I was 40, I had never thought about getting old."  So my  question is does "non avrei mai pensato che..." indicate that the  "thought" occurred in the past?  Wouldn't that be "non avevo mai creduto che..."


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## marco 1958

"non avevo mai creduto che..." refers to a thought that I used to be thinking of in the past, but I haven't dreamt any longer about.
"non avrei mai creduto che" means : I had never thought of it in the past, and I still could not imagine that this might have happened to me someday.

Ma tornando al mio esempio, ancora tu scrivi "she* never thought *she'd get to this moment"
I know this is idiomatic, nowadays as teerex says: but is it also correct?
I mean, if she "thought" this in the past and is still thinking the correct form should be: _she has never thought_. Unless you give a definite date reference, such as: _when she was 13 (definite) she never thought (simple past)_
If she has stopped thinking so, but was thinking of it in the past, the correct form should be "she had never thought". Isn't it?
You will notice that I still use the verb "to have" as an auxiliary, though not as a verb that might express possession (I have got, should be the correct 1976 form in English English)
So probably I am only unidiomatic and olfashioned.

Ciao, you're performing quite well
Marco


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## PatsRule

marco 1958 said:


> "non avevo mai creduto  che..." refers to a thought that I used to be thinking of in the past,  but I haven't dreamt any longer about. *I used to think that...*
> "non avrei mai creduto che" means : I had never thought of it in the past, and I still *cannot imagine that this might happen to me someday* (could not imagine that this might have happened to me someday). *I never would have imagined/thought that...*
> 
> Ma tornando al mio esempio, ancora tu scrivi "she* never thought *she'd get to this moment"
> I know this is idiomatic, nowadays as teerex says: but is it also correct? *Yes however "I had never thought that..." is often used and is grammatically correct as well. I am just trying to find out which is correct in this particular case.*
> Unless you give a definite date reference, such as: _when she was 13 (definite) she never thought (simple past) _*I  am not familiar with this rule of having to have a definite/specific  date reference even though the example is a correct one.  What about "The subject made her angry, so she never thought that he would mention it."*
> If she has stopped thinking so, but was thinking of it in the past, the correct form should be "she had never thought".  *If the "thought" existed up until a certain point in the past, then yes, the correct form would be "she had never thought..."* _*However,  you stated that "non avrei mai creduto che..." refers to a thought that  she never thought of in the past, and still cannot imagine might  happen.  So, why do you want to translate it with "had"? (or is "non  avrei mai pensato che..." different from non avrei mai creduto che...?*)_
> You will notice that I still use the verb "to have" as an auxiliary,  though not as a verb that might express possession (I have got, should  be the correct 1976 form in English English)
> So probably I am only unidiomatic and olfashioned. *Speaking properly does not equate to being unidiomatic or old fashioned*
> 
> Ciao, you're performing quite well *Grazie mille!*
> Marco




One can easily (and correctly) say: "She never thought that this moment would come" and also "Up until a moment ago, she had never thought that this moment would come".  However, the title of this thread is "non avrei mai pensato che questo..." so I am confused because it seems that a *translation* would be "I never would have imagined that this moment..."  because I understand, as you said, that "avrei mai" means something that I never thought of in the past and couldn't imagine ever happening.  That is what is causing the confusion, at least for me.


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## marco 1958

Thank you! Ciao It's becoming a psychoanalysis session: my head is spinning...


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## bearded

I would like to remark that in correct Italian the thread sentence should read 'non avrei mai pensato che questo momento arrivasse' with 'imperfect subjunctive'.  In such cases, the conditional is currently used instead, but is not fully correct.  
Non credevo che sarebbe venuto is less correct than Non credevo che venisse.
I am sure that other Italians would not agree, but in our language there is something like syntactic 'consecutio temporum' or succession of tenses, which should be respected.


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## marco 1958

Sarei d'accordo completamente.


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## Odysseus54

bearded man said:


> I would like to remark that in correct Italian the thread sentence should read 'non avrei mai pensato che questo momento arrivasse' with 'imperfect subjunctive'.  In such cases, the conditional is currently used instead, but is not fully correct.
> Non credevo che sarebbe venuto is less correct than Non credevo che venisse.




I wouldn't put my money on that.


We have two different things going on here.  Certain verbs ( like 'pensare', 'credere' ) require the subjunctive in the dependent clause, others require the indicative.

Examples :

" Pensavo che venisse oggi "     but     " Sapevo che veniva oggi "


Then we have a separate issue, which is that of the past conditional used as 'future in the past'.

Examples :


" Pensavo che sarebbe venuto oggi " e " Sapevo che sarebbe venuto oggi " , where both sentences are perfectly correct, and I mean perfectly correct.


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## Willower

As already noted above (and to my constant confusion) English and Italian tense usage is different.  In the context that Giuggiola is talking about  (and Congratulations from me too - a big achievement!) the in English it is absolutely correct in both writing and in speech to say

*I never thought this moment would come
She never thought this moment would come*

because the moment we are talking about is a present moment.

*She had never thought this moment would come

* would be used in narrative, as free indirect discourse, to describe someone's thoughts.

"I would never have thought" is used to talk about something that really would not have come into my mind, like the excellent example of the pilot flying blindfolded - Or

*A bottle of disinfectant! What an unusual Christmas present - I would never have thought of that*!


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## marco 1958

I apologise for insisting: let alone the "might" vs "would" case. And let alone the issue raised by Bearded Man (*Non pensavo questo momento arrivasse*: which is quick, grammatically correct, non redundant, with a perfect _consecutio temporum_: when you have to write a Brief for the Court, like I do -briefs must be,_ well,_ brief actually- never use 3 words when 2 would suffice).
One doubt lies on my table.
To my obsolete knowledge, and regardless of English colloquial usage, you cannot build a sentence through a Simple Past when referring to an indefinite moment.
*She never thought* should be wrong, therefore, unless you can give more details. 
Such as: *During *the damned summer *(precise moment)* that we spent living in Sicily, my sister *never thought* (simple past tense) she would survive the heat wave: And they call it Europe, she often repeated to herself"
But if we are referring to her thoughts (see Willower) in the past we'd rather should be saying:
She *had never thought* (indefinite moment in the past) this moment would come.

 For me we are talking of the Dogma of the Virginity of the Holy Mary: why the simple past for an indefinite moment? If you say "because we don't use it any longer and don't bother us with these olfashioned silly rules" I will accept it. 
When I took my last English classes the man had landed on the moon since few years, in fact. My use of simple past may as well be outdated.


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## Willower

marco 1958 said:


> I apologise for insisting: let alone the "might" vs "would" case. And let alone the issue raised by Bearded Man (*Non pensavo questo momento arrivasse*: which is quick, grammatically correct, non redundant, with a perfect _consecutio temporum_: when you have to write a Brief for the Court, like I do -briefs must be,_ well,_ brief actually- never use 3 words when 2 would suffice).
> One doubt lies on my table.
> To my obsolete knowledge, and regardless of English colloquial usage, you cannot build a sentence through a Simple Past when referring to an indefinite moment.
> *She never thought* should be wrong, therefore, unless you can give more details.
> Such as: *During *the damned summer *(precise moment)* that we spent living in Sicily, my sister *never thought* (simple past tense) she would survive the heat wave: And they call it Europe, she often repeated to herself"
> But if we are referring to her thoughts (see Willower) in the past we'd rather should be saying:
> She *had never thought* (indefinite moment in the past) this moment would come.
> 
> For me we are talking of the Dogma of the Virginity of the Holy Mary: why the simple past for an indefinite moment? If you say "because we don't use it any longer and don't bother us with these olfashioned silly rules" I will accept it.
> When I took my last English classes the man had landed on the moon since few years, in fact. My use of simple past may as well be outdated.



I don't think this represents any change in practice, Marco -I've been  speaking Standard English as my first language for 62 years now and  teaching it for the last 20 at all levels and "She never thought" sounds  fine to me. It's a straightforward narrative account of what she ( in  my opinion as narrator) did or didn't do. In English the simple past can  be used to describe an ongoing action as well as a completed one. * I never liked going to school/I always liked going to school* for example. However, I'm not entirely sure I understand your difficulty, so perhaps I'm missing the point?


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## PatsRule

Ciao Tutti:

Yes, you are right Marco, that the Past Simple tense is used for a particular time in the past, but it doesn't necessarily *require* that a definite time in the past be mentioned.
It only has to be implied/clear that the speaker is thinking of a definite time in the past.

"She never thought (from the time she was little until the moment she graduated - both in the past) this moment would come."

However, the Past Perfect tense is used when we are already discussing the past and want to refer back to an earlier period in time. 
So, in this case, it would not be used.  In order to use the Past Perfect tense you would have to change this particular sentence to read:

"As she received her diploma, she suddenly realized that she had never thought that this moment would come." OR "Someone asked her if she had ever thought this moment would come."

I would greatly appreciate it if someone would refer to "non avrei mai" - as two people on this thread have already indicated that it is conditional.  So, if the speaker is trying to say "I never thought that this moment would come" why not use "Non mai credevo che venisse"?

Grazie mille


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## stella_maris_74

*Moderation Note:*

Dear friends, 
This thread is rapidly drifting towards a mixup of different aspects that go well beyond what's been initially asked, and risk becoming very confusing and too broad. 
Please let's not forget to *stay on topic* as per rule #2, and to maintain aswers as concise and to-the-point as possible.

You're welcome to debate the finer points of Italian or English that exceed the question being posed in post #1 in Solo Italiano or English Only respectively, by searching for existing threads or creating new ones.

I'm not going to sift through each message posted so far to edit or delete it, but this thread will be closed if the OT drift continues.

Thank you for your help in keeping threads focused and informative (as opposed to broad and potentially confusing).


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## curiosone

marco 1958 said:


> For me we are talking of the Dogma of the Virginity of the Holy Mary*;* why the simple past for an indefinite moment? If you say "because we don't use it any longer and don't bother us with these ol*d-*fashioned silly rules" I will accept it.
> When I took my last English classes *(*the*)* man had landed on the moon * only a* few years *previously/earlier*, in fact. My use of *the *simple past may *(*as*)* well be outdated.



Forgive me for correcting your English, Marco.  If I had remained in the States in 1976 (instead of returning to Italy) my Italian would likely be MUCH more rusty than your English!  My corrections are minor ones, and the only reason for being "pignola" is because you really shouldn't insist on being right, when native speakers on both sides of the pond disagree with you.  It's one thing to study a language; it's another to live one.


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## macforever

In other words, Teerex51 was right.


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## curiosone

macforever said:


> In other words, Teerex51 was right.



Tex usually is.  But then he's lived on both sides of the pond.


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## Teerex51

macforever said:


> In other words, Teerex 51 was right.



Not just me, Mac, but thanks. 

Let me just quote Curiosone here 





> It's one thing to study a language; it's another to live one.


Dogged insistence on one's quaint notion of tense harmony in English can only kill an otherwise interesting thread. Let's move on folks, there's nothing left to say here.


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## PatsRule

"non avrei mai pensato che..." 

It was indicated by both Teerex and Marco that this phrase is conditional.  So the correct translation would be "I never would have thought..."; however, the OP stated that she is graduating now and just wanted to say that despite difficulties, she is happy this moment has arrived (no conditional).

So, if disregarding the context and purely translating the sentence in Italian the correct translation would be: "I never would have thought that this moment would come."

If any of the English/Italian speakers could explain that "non avrei mai pensato" could and should be translated as a simple "I never thought that...", that would be great

By the way, I can understand those who are tired of talking about this specific thread.  I think that this issue has reached its limits as well.  It's been very tiring.
But I'd love an explanation from anyone who has one, who isn't overly tired and doesn't shy away from a good challenge


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## Teerex51

Pat, let me use an example here: the Italian phrase _vorrei poterti_ _aiutare_, translated into English goes _I wish I could help you. 
_
You will notice that the tenses are quite different but the two sentences are perfectly idiomatic in their own right. That's the price you pay for going from L1 to L2, where L stands for language. 

If you insist on adopting the syntax or the tense agreement of L1 when you translate into L2 you have a problem. That's called L1 transfer and it's pretty hard to fix...

Clear as mud?


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## Odysseus54

I will argue a bit for the conditional in the English translation.


I think that there are two differences between :

1) " I never thought I would pass the exam "

and

2) " I  never would have thought that I would pass the exam "


In (1) , without further context, the sentence doesn't really tell us if I passed the exam or not.  

In (2), we understand that I passed the exam.  And, I believe, and this is the second difference, the sentence emphatically says that '_no matter what_, I never would have thought etc etc', whereas (1) is just a statement of fact about what I believed would happen, without adding any special emphasis to it.

If the above is true ( I am curious to see what the natives think about it ) the question now is : which one of the two sentences better translates the Italian ?

I think that both of them are good translations, and that the choice would be a matter of context and emphasis.


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## marco 1958

Ok_ no. you're not missing the point, willower. It's the basic rule being blurred to me after this discussion
If the use of simple past sounds fine to you, this sounds fine to me as well.
Thx


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## PatsRule

Teerex51 said:


> Pat, let me use an example here: the Italian phrase _vorrei poterti_ _aiutare_, translated into English goes _I wish I could help you.
> _You will notice that the tenses are quite different but the two sentences are perfectly idiomatic in their own right. That's the price you pay for going from L1 to L2, where L stands for language.
> If you insist on adopting the syntax or the tense agreement of L1 when you translate into L2 you have a problem. That's called L1 transfer and it's pretty hard to fix...



Actually "vorrei poterti aiutare" would be translated as "I would like to help you..." which is exactly my point   For this reason, I would be inclined to translate "non avrei mai" as "I would never have...".  However, according to everyone (and probably rightfully so), it is being translated as "I thought that..."  I just wanted an explanation as to why.  

You are right, however.  Sometimes, one cannot translate all phrases according to the grammar rules of one particular phrase.  
Sometimes things are just said differently because they are. Period.
If that is the case here, I can accept that.  I was just hoping it wasn't... meaning I was hoping to possibly find a rule that would help me speak Italian more correctly.  
But (again) thanks!


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## curiosone

PatsRule said:


> Actually "vorrei poterti aiutare" would be translated as "I would like to help you..."
> But (again) thanks!



No, it wouldn't.  "Vorrei poterti aiutare" implies "I cannot help you (but I wish I were able to do so)."  So (as Tex already said) the correct translation is:  "I wish I could help you."


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## PatsRule

curiosone said:


> "Vorrei poterti aiutare" implies "I cannot help you (but I wish I were able to do so)."



That is exactly what "I would like to help you (but I can't)" means curiosone.
Besides, I never said TeeRex was wrong, I wrote "Actually it can be translated as..." - and the reason I used the expression "I would like to help you..." instead of "I wish I could help you..." was to demonstrate that it is the same issue as "non avrei  mai pensato..."
But, as the mods requested, I think it best not to veer too far off topic.


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## Willower

marco 1958 said:


> Ok_ no. you're not missing the point, willower. It's the basic rule being blurred to me after this discussion
> If the use of simple past sounds fine to you, this sounds fine to me as well.
> Thx



I woke up in the night thinking about this - and I think I can see where the difficulty comes from.  It depends on the time that comment is set in - so:

She never thought that this moment (*now today when she has passed her exam*) would come. 
or 
She had never thought that this moment (*this moment sometime in the past, in the period we are talking about*) would come. 

In other words the tense use in the first clause depends on the time referred to in the second clause.  I hope this helps!



Odysseus54 said:


> I will argue a bit for the conditional in the English translation.
> 
> 
> I think that there are two differences between :
> 
> 1) " I never thought I would pass the exam "
> 
> and
> 
> 2) " I  never would have thought that I would pass the exam "
> 
> 
> In (1) , without further context, the sentence doesn't really tell us if I passed the exam or not.
> 
> In (2), we understand that I passed the exam.  And, I believe, and this is the second difference, the sentence emphatically says that '_no matter what_, I never would have thought etc etc', whereas (1) is just a statement of fact about what I believed would happen, without adding any special emphasis to it.
> 
> If the above is true ( I am curious to see what the natives think about it ) the question now is : which one of the two sentences better translates the Italian ?
> 
> I think that both of them are good translations, and that the choice would be a matter of context and emphasis.



I think you have summarised the distinction well Odysseus.  There's one very minor point that I've been chewing over, without coming to any conclusion.  _I never would have thought_ is absolutely correct English and I imagine that it may be how the Queen would phrase it  , but for me it would be more natural ( more demotic?) to say_ I would never have thought.   _However I can't explain why this should be so perhaps it's just my personal ideolect.


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## curiosone

PatsRule said:


> That is exactly what "I would like to help you (but I can't)" means curiosone.
> Besides, I never said TeeRex was wrong, I wrote "Actually it can be translated as..." - and the reason I used the expression "I would like to help you..." instead of "I wish I could help you..." was to demonstrate that it is the same issue as "non avrei  mai pensato..."
> But, as the mods requested, I think it best not to veer too far off topic.



I never thought you were implying Tex was wrong;  what I was saying was that your "I would like to help you..." was an incorrect translation of "Vorrei poterti aiutare".  
_Ad ogni modo penso che abbiamo sviscerato questa traduzione a sufficienza._


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## Teerex51

curiosone said:


> ... your "I would like to help you..." was an incorrect translation of "Vorrei poterti aiutare".


Begging the Mods' forbearance:


_Vorrei *poterti* aiutare_ --> I wish I *could *help you
_Vorrei aiutarti/Ti vorrei aiutare_ --> I would like to help you _(the meaning clearly differs)_ 
Now, we can debate this until the cows come home but, IMHO, seeking direct tense correspondence between languages is a waste of time. My first sample sentence was only meant to convey this and I'm convinced that trying to translate sentences to piggyback on the syntax of the source language is an aberration. In actual fact, that's exactly what advanced learners must be _weaned off_ of.


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## PatsRule

Teerex51 said:


> ...seeking direct tense correspondence between languages is a waste of time. My first sample sentence was only meant to convey this and I'm convinced that trying to translate sentences to piggyback on the syntax of the source language is an aberration. In actual fact, that's exactly what advanced learners must be weaned off of.



I completely agree... and both you and curiosone were right about the vorrei poterti... vs vorrei aiutarti Grazie!

Keeping with the thread topic... if I could just take advantage of your "both sides of the pond" knowledge in both English and Italian and ask you to translate the following two sentences (or just the highlighted portion) into Italian, I'd be obliged.

A: "I am getting married today!  *I never thought* this moment would come!"

B: "You are getting married xxx? Today?  Wow!  You know... *I never would've thought* that you'd be the one to get married first!


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## Odysseus54

I would say :

" Non avrei mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe arrivato "

e

" Non avrei mai pensato che saresti stato tu il primo a sposarti "


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## Teerex51

My take is basically the same as Ody's:


_Mi sposo oggi. Non avrei mai pensato che questo momento sarebbe arrivato._
_Lo sai, non avrei mai creduto che ti saresti sposato/a tu per primo/a._


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## Odysseus54

I think what is really puzzling Pat is not about tense correspondence, but rather mode correspondence - how come "I never thought this moment would come" ( indicative, mode of reality ) translates in Italian as " Non avrei mai pensato/creduto" ( subjunctive ).

And, seen from the other side, if we said in Italian 

" Non ho mai creduto che questo momento sarebbe arrivato " 

It would mean that that moment never came, and that I never believed it would.

It is a good question, and one I don't have an answer for.  


The funny thing is that, with a minor tweak, things change :

" I didn't think this moment would come "

can be translated as 

" Non credevo che questo momento sarebbe venuto "


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## PatsRule

Thank you both Ody and TRex so much... "non avrei mai pensato" vs "non ho mai creduto" - Now all is clear (by George I think I've finally got it!)


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## Odysseus54

You bet


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## Teerex51

Odysseus54 said:


> You bet



Ditto


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## PatsRule

I think that my confusion was twofold.  
First, as Ody pointed out, in the mode correspondence.  
Second, in Italian - the first part of the sentence "non avrei mai" remains constant in both instances (whether I want to say "I never thought" or "I never would've thought", while the second verb of the sentence is the one to change... and grammatically speaking, this may be the more correct way to speak. 

While in English, so far as I know, both are grammatically correct (at least both are used quite often), but as TRex pointed out (on page 1) the word "would" should not be used twice in a sentence... which is why, in Italian the "would" is only on the second verb.   Very important when trying to construct a sentence in Italian!


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## Teerex51

PatsRule said:


> ... but as TRex pointed out (on page 1) the word "would" should not be used twice in a sentence... which is why, in Italian the "would" is only on the second verb.



Whoa, Pat. This is a recommendation of style that _applies to English_  The very title of this thread contains two conditionals - and is perfectly OK.


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## PatsRule

I meant that now if I take your "don't use would twice" when translating an English sentence into Italian, it will help me construct the sentence in a more correct fashion and eliminate the confusion I had.


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## Teerex51

PatsRule said:


> I meant that now if I take your "don't use would twice" when translating an English sentence into Italian, it will help me construct the sentence in a more correct fashion and eliminate the confusion I had.


Whatever flips your pancake...


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## stella_maris_74

*Moderation note:*

Dear friends,
please think about the people who will consult this thread in the future with the aim of solving a similar translation/grammar doubt.
Thread is reaching page 4 already, which isn't a problem per se, but can become one if added posts wander off into chat, minor points, and kind of flogging a horse that was already dead a number of posts ago 

Please only post if you have something new and valuable to add to the discussion.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


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## Einstein

Willower said:


> There's one very minor point that I've been chewing over, without coming to any conclusion.  _I never would have thought_ is absolutely correct English and I imagine that it may be how the Queen would phrase it  , but for me it would be more natural ( more demotic?) to say_ I would never have thought_.


_I would never have thought_ comes more naturally to me too. I think the most natural position for an adverb in a compound tense is after the first auxiliary.
I'm not at all sure that the Queen - or a genuine auhority on the language - would prefer _I never would have thought_; it sounds less usual to me. However, I don't think we can say it's wrong and I'm sure I've heard it plenty of times. It's just a question of emphasis.


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## k in the desert

I think the placement of the adverb also has to do with the pronunciation and which word/syllable you choose to accent.  With ‘never’ up front, it would seem to be highlighted a bit more. In casual speech, though, it might roll off my tongue more easily to use ‘not/ever’: I wouldn’t have ever thought…


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## stella_maris_74

_Colgo l'occasione per segnalare i numerosi thread precedenti in cui è stata affrontata la costruzione "I would never have" / "I never would have":_

I would never have allowed you to rebuke me publicly.
I would never have been able to imagine
I would never have thought that
I would never have thought...
If it were not for the map, we never would have arrived
She would never have used the word


In English Only:

conditional(If I could replay I would have never let you go)
Eliza would never have got the job...
I never would have thought
I would had no\I would never have
I would have never imagined I‘d tell you
I would have never made you for a liar
I would have never thought he would do this behind my back.
I would never have done it / I never would have done it.
one of the few things I < have never been/ would never be> good at.
one would have thought he could never laugh again
perhaps we would have never seen us/each other again.
She would have never picked you if you didn't have talent.
there would never have been any unpleasantness except for what happened in the garden.
Transformation "I would never have expected to be so easy"
we would never have thought / would never think
who she would have been had Paul never come into her life
would have never had
would never have gone through with
would never have hit
wouldn't have thought / would never think


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