# 80 percent or 80 percents?



## quietdandelion

Female teachers represent 80 percent of the school staff.



Why not 80 *percents* since it's plural? Thanks.


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## dn88

Because "percent" is an adverb.


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## LV4-26

Because _N percent_ (_per cent_) means "N for/in/out of *one* hundred".
80 percent --> 80 out of one hundred.


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## quietdandelion

LV4-26 said:


> Because _N percent_ (_per cent_) means "N for/in/out of *one* hundred".
> 80 percent -->* 80 out of one hundred*.


Thanks, LV4.
I'm still wondering since the number of something is over two, we have to use the plural form. Now it's 80 percent/out of one hundred whatever you say it; logically, it should be plural.


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## dragonfly37

As a general rule (this is not to say there aren't exceptions), "percent" is never used in the plural.  If you want to say that, for example, two polls came up with different results, you use "percentages."  "The percentages of female teachers varied in our polls."  Or even "The percent of female teacher..."


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## LV4-26

quietdandelion, dn88 gave you the appropriate answer : _percent_ (or _per cent_) is an adverb, *not a noun*. As such, it is invariable.


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## I_like_my_TV

I don't think _percent_ is an adverb here. An adverb gives more meaning to the verb, and if you drop the adverb, the sentence is still intact, only becomes a little less precise. However, here you can't say: _"Female teachers represent 80 of the school staff." _


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## mother earth

"80 percent" is an adjective.


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## JamesM

quietdandelion said:


> Thanks, LV4.
> I'm still wondering since the number of something is over two, we have to use the plural form. Now it's 80 percent/out of one hundred whatever you say it; logically, it should be plural.


 
We wouldn't say "80 out of one hundred*s*", quietdandelion.


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## mother earth

The female teachers represent 80 out of 100 teachers.  Their representation (singular) is 80 percent.  Stating a percentage is always singular, whether it seems logical or not


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## LV4-26

I stand corrected. _Per cent_ is indeed a noun.in the sample sentence. (but it remains true that it takes no 's').
Consider it as an exception, probably due to its origin as a prepositional phrase (_per_ = for/in/by, _cent._ = _centum_ = one hundred. - Latin and French -).


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## dn88

Quite strange, but it seems that "percent" can be a noun, adjective and adverb (depends on its context):

_Female teachers represent 80 percent of the school staff._ - here it's a noun in its plural form without "s"

_He paid the money into a 8 percent account._ - here "percent" is an adjective

_Taxes rose 4 percent last month._ - now it's an adverb

Pretty confusing, but somehow logical.


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## timpeac

dn88 said:


> Quite strange, but it seems that "percent" can be a noun, adjective and adverb (depends on its context):
> 
> _Female teachers represent 80 percent of the school staff._ - here it's a noun in its plural form without "s"
> 
> _He paid the money into a 8 percent account._ - here "percent" is an adjective
> 
> _Taxes rose 4 percent last month._ - now it's an adverb
> 
> Pretty confusing, but somehow logical.


I think that it is a noun in all those usages - you could replace "percent" with "places" and still make sense. Well, I suppose you could view it the other way round and say that a noun can act as an adjective or an adverb but that is true of many nouns.

I also don't think that "percent" is plural in _Female teachers represent 80 percent of the school staff. _There is one 80 percent that is made up of females.


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## AWordLover

Hi All,

I think that the reason that a singe percent, like 80 percent, is singular is that it represents a single ratio. The ratio is expressed with 100 as the denominator and the number given (80 in the example of 80 percent) is the numerator. Saying 80 percent is equivalent to saying in the ratio of 80 to 100.


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## dn88

Since one percent = one part of a hundred, eighty percent = eighty parts of a hundred (but "percent" doesn't take "-s" in its plural form). Guess you're going to disagree...


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## AWordLover

dn88 said:


> Since one percent = one part of a hundred, eighty percent = eighty parts of a hundred (but "percent" doesn't take "-s" in its plural form). Guess you're going to disagree...


 
You are right, I disagree. Each example you gave is a single ratio.

EDIT: The ratio of 1 to 100, the ratio of 80 to 100. It is not *ratios* of 1 to 100.
EDIT 2: X percent is *the ratio* of X to 100.


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## timpeac

And I disagree too

"Percent" = "per hundred". It would make no sense to say "80 per hundreds of teachers..." (there is only one hundred and one percentage) and so I think that "percent" is a singular noun, and not a plural one which happens not to take an "s".


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## dn88

So are you implying that "percent" can be plural only with "-s" in the context below?

_He was taught to use fractions and *percents*.

_No other contexts?


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## timpeac

dn88 said:


> So are you implying that "percent" can be plural only with "-s" in the context below?
> 
> _He was taught to use fractions and *percents*._
> 
> No other contexts?


Yes - at least I can't think of another context (and if I'm honest I wouldn't have thought of that context).

Google seems to list "percents" only in that context too -

http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&as_qdr=all&q="percents"&meta.


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## AWordLover

dn88 said:


> So are you implying that "percent" can be plural only with "-s" in the context below?
> 
> _He was taught to use fractions and *percents*._
> 
> No other contexts?


 
I agree with you again. 

Yes, it is only plural in contexts like this one where you are referring to more than one ratio. Even in the context you gave some might use the word percentages instead of percents.


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## LouisaB

Hello, everyone, and apologies for busting in late.

Does it help if we think of 'percentage'/'percent' as a _collective_ noun, which I think effectively is what it is? It's a noun describing a number of elements (each being 'one part in a hundred') lumped together.

Thus, although a wolf pack may comprise twenty wolves, it's still singular - unless there is more than one pack in the forest, in which case it's plural.

Or does it not help at all?

LouisaB


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## dn88

Then I conclude that it works just in the same way as with "a lot of" for instance.

A lot of money *was* wasted.
70 percent of money *was *wasted.

A lot of employees *are* hard-working.
60 percent of employees *are* hard-working.

If so, then I got the point.  Thanks.


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## LouisaB

Exactly, dn88 - and that's a better example than mine!  

LouisaB


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## quietdandelion

Thanks, my friends, for the heated and intriguing comment and advice.
Louisa's idea is pretty clean and neat--think of percent as a collective noun. It's easier to see and to explain it to students.


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## panjandrum

I'm amazed this has created so much discussion after the very clear explanations near the top of the thread.  There seems to be a strong pull to think of percent as some kind of unit, or fraction.  It isn't.

80 per cent
80 per hundred
80 in every hundred

Things would be completely different if we were talking about hundredths, but we're not.


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## floridasnowbird

quietdandelion said:


> Thanks, LV4.
> I'm still wondering since the number of something is over two, we have to use the plural form.
> 
> I would say: If something is over *one*, we have to use the plural form.
> 
> Example: one and a half cakes (or am I wrong?)


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## tomandjerryfan

floridasnowbird said:


> quietdandelion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, LV4.
> I'm still wondering since the number of something is over two, we have to use the plural form.
> 
> I would say: If something is over *one*, we have to use the plural form.
> 
> Example: one and a half cakes (or am I wrong?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct. The plural would be used here because you need two cakes, a whole one and a half of one, in order to have one and a half *cakes*.
Click to expand...


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## mrbilal87

panjandrum said:


> I'm amazed this has created so much discussion after the very clear explanations near the top of the thread. There seems to be a strong pull to think of percent as some kind of unit, or fraction. It isn't.
> 
> 80 per cent
> 80 per hundred
> 80 in every hundred
> 
> Things would be completely different if we were talking about hundredths, but we're not.



Hi Panjandrum,

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. Percents_ are_ fractions. 80 per cent can be expressed as 80/100 in mathematical terms.

Cheers!


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## LV4-26

panjandrum said:


> I'm amazed this has created so much discussion after the very clear explanations near the top of the thread.


Well, I'm not _that_ surprised.
_Percent_ (_per cent_) is a strange word indeed.

(1) On the one  hand, it's made of...
a *preposition* (per) followed by a *cardinal* (_cent_, Romance form of _hundred_, as we said before).
(which, I think, amounts just about to what Panjandrum said, albeit in a different way).

(2) On the other hand, it can behave exactly like any ordinary noun (and I'm not talking of the _percent_ that means _percentage_) at least in one case, i.e. when you say :
_Half *a* percent.
_If you can say _half *a* percent_, you could easily imagine saying _*80 percent*s*, _couldn't  you? But you can't. It wouldn't make sense when you think of (1).
I would say that such a phrase as _half a percent_ is strongly suspect to me, logically speaking. Also note that, in this case, you can no longer write it in two words (?half a per cent). Or can you? I'd  have to check. If yes, then it's even dodgier than I thought.

EDIT : You *can.*


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## dn88

My google matches:

"half a percent" - 214,000
"half a per cent" - 59,000

show that they both are fairly common expressions.

One more thing - quoted from here:



> Material contained in the Content may not be duplicated or redistributed without the prior written consent of Farlex, except that one print copy of search output is permitted for use within the customer's organization and that search output may be stored temporarily in electronic media for editing or reformatting and subsequent printing of one print copy of search output for internal use.
> _*Source *_


"_n._*1. *_pl._ *percent* also  *per cent*  One part in a hundred"

What exactly do they mean by this plural "percent"? Can the word "percent", alone, be either singular or plural? Or maybe they mean a plural word being the object of "of" (then also "percent" is plural)? That's pretty confusing.


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## LV4-26

dn88 said:


> [...]What exactly do they mean by this plural "percent"? [...]


The answer to this has been given. Well, at least for definition #2. And I briefly alluded to it in my previous post ===>
_She has invested a large *percent* of her salary = She has invested a large *percentag*e of her salary._


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## panjandrum

mrbilal87 said:


> Hi Panjandrum,
> 
> With all due respect, I strongly disagree. Percents_ are_ fractions. 80 per cent can be expressed as 80/100 in mathematical terms.
> 
> Cheers!


Mathematically I agree with you.  Linguistically I don't, because percent is treated as if it still had it's literal meaning - per hundred.  It seems to me that keeping this in mind should resolve the problem.

Of course, it had never occurred to me (having a mathematical background) to think of percent in any other way.  It's curious how someone else's perception of a very ordinary concept can be so different.
_____________________________________

I've just thought of an analogy.
Percent is a bit like miles/hour, or kilometers/hour.
If I am walking briskly down the road I am walking at four miles/hour - not four miles/hour*s*.


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## dn88

panjandrum said:


> I've just thought of an analogy.
> Percent is a bit like miles/hour, or kilometers/hour.
> If I am walking briskly down the road I am walking at four miles/hour - not four miles/hour*s*.



That's a good point!
But I'm still unsure what part of speech "percent" is in the sentence that has already aroused this heated discussion:

_Female teachers represent 80 *percent* of the school staff.

_Should I treat it as an adverb? Or as a noun? I need a firm opinion. Thanks.


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## panjandrum

If you need a firm opinion, there are several above to choose from 
adverb - not a noun - adjective - noun singular - noun collective - noun plural.

Based on several dictionary references, it's clear that there is more than one answer.

Adverb: <number> percent
(1) Expressing a proportion - the main usage discussed above.

(2) As part of a compound noun, typically relating to government securities, usually in plural form. "Buy US four percents!"  "Sell all of my three percents!"

Noun: percent - without a preceding number.
(3) A score or proportion - a percentage (see above).  "What is the percent of fat in that ice-cream?" In this use, you could say that different ice-creams have different percents of fat (but I wouldn't).

(4) A unit of "one percent" - directly equivalent to "hundredth".  Half a percent - one and a half percents - 14 percents.

(5) A mathematical concept - we are learning about fractions and percents this week.


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## mrbilal87

I'm no math whiz, but I feel both the linguistical and the mathematical meanings are in agreement here. 80/100 is equal to 80 per cent, which represents 80 units per each single set of 100. The fact that we're referring to an individual set of 100 is the reason we use the singular in that case.

The same goes for kilometres per hour. 30 km/h can be expressed in fractional as 30/1, implying that for each individual hour you travel 30 klicks.


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## AWordLover

Hi All,

I stand by what I said earlier about 80 percent.



> Panj wrote:
> (4) A unit of "one percent" - directly equivalent to "hundredth". Half a percent - one and a half percent*s* - 14 percent*s*.


 
I hope he (Panj) didn't mean to have those pesky red "s"es, I think they are wrong.



> mrbilal87 wrote:
> I'm no math whiz, but I feel both the linguistical and the mathematical meanings are in agreement here. 80/100 is equal to 80 per cent, which represents 80 units per each single set of 100. The fact that we're referring to an individual set of 100 is the reason we use the singular in that case.
> 
> The same goes for kilometres per hour. 30 km/h can be expressed in fractional as 30/1, implying that for each individual hour you travel 30 klicks.


 
I mostly agree with this, but I would put too much stock in looking at the hundreds. Look at how we count hundreds. 
one hundred
two hundred
three hundred

Hundred is one of those words that is sometimes written as its own plural.


It is true that by convention, in English, we don't form the plural of units of measure.

How long is the room?
Ten meters (10 m).

For novelty I propose we treat percent as though we were writing the units of something. I don't think this is the case, but at least it's novel. 

Amazed as Panj was many posts ago that this thread continues,
AWordLover


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## timpeac

AWordLover said:


> Amazed as Panj was many posts ago that this thread continues,
> AWordLover


If you're still posting, why are you amazed the thread continues?


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## AWordLover

timpeac said:


> If you're still posting, why are you amazed the thread continues?


 
Even my own actions amaze me.


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## panjandrum

> Panj wrote:
> (4) A unit of "one percent" - directly equivalent to "hundredth". Half a percent - one and a half percent*s* - 14 percent*s*.





> I hope he (Panj) didn't mean to have those pesky red "s"es, I think they are wrong.


Sorry.
He meant them. For example:





> *1994* _Sci. Amer._ Mar. 9/3 The measurements have large errors (of tens of percents), so the results quoted are actually quite fuzzy.


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:


> Sorry.
> He meant them. For example:


Yes - here the stress is on the plural nature of several individual "percents" (or percentages, or percentage points). From your quoted example the only interpretation, I think, can be that normally you would expect around a single percentage point for the average error, so the fact we have tens of percents (tens of percentage points, etc) is significant.


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## AWordLover

timpeac said:


> Yes - here the stress is on the plural nature of several individual "percents" (or percentages, or percentage points). From your quoted example the only interpretation, I think, can be that normally you would expect around a single percentage point for the average error, so the fact we have tens of percents (tens of percentage points, etc) is significant.


 
I like your thinking, and one could easily imagine a list of numbers each written as a percent and then speak of 14 of the numbers as 14 percents.

It is not as easy to explain what Panj meant by "one and a half percent*s".*

*EDIT: Maybe it's an odd statistical thing, we have pages containing numbers, each written as a percent. On average there are 1.5 mistakes per page. I guess it would make sense to say one and a have percents per page are in error.*
*Is that what you meant Panj? *


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## Loob

Let's simplify and go back to the posts that saw percent as a collective noun or as equivalent to "a lot of"....

The bottom line is that with countable nouns, "x per cent" takes a plural verb: "20% of the students were in favour of Tony Blair".

And with uncountable nouns, it takes the singular: "50% of the cake was eaten by the students; the teachers ate the other 50%"

Loob


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## panjandrum

AWordLover said:


> I like your thinking, and one could easily imagine a list of numbers each written as a percent and then speak of 14 of the numbers as 14 percents.
> 
> It is not as easy to explain what Panj meant by "one and a half percent*s".*
> 
> *EDIT: Maybe it's an odd statistical thing, we have pages containing numbers, each written as a percent. On average there are 1.5 mistakes per page. I guess it would make sense to say one and a have percents per page are in error.*
> *Is that what you meant Panj? *


No, sorry, the evidence appears to be that "a percent" is occasionally used to mean "one hundredth". 14 percents = 14 hundredths, NOT 14 percentages.

I don't like it either, but it is used often enough to make its way into the OED as accepted.


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## AWordLover

> No, sorry, the evidence appears to be that "a percent" is occasionally used to mean "one hundredth". 14 percents = 14 hundredths, NOT 14 percentages.
> 
> I don't like it either, but it is used often enough to make its way into the OED as accepted.


 
Thank you for your patience in explaining this Panj.


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## AWordLover

Hi All,



> Panj's explanation:
> No, sorry, the evidence appears to be that "a percent" is occasionally used to mean "one hundredth". 14 percents = 14 hundredths, NOT 14 percentages.
> 
> I don't like it either, but it is used often enough to make its way into the OED as accepted.


 
This has continued to bother me. I've lost sleep. It's making me irritable.
I'm going to attempt to show that saying one percent means "one hundredth" is no reason to say .14 = 14 hundredths = 14 *percents*.

I too have consulted a number of dictionaries. And confirmed what I had already believed, a percent can be taken to mean one hundredth. Many of these dictionaries then go on to give an example. Observe this exerpt from the American Heritage Dictionary


_pl._ *percent* also *per cent* One part in a hundred: _The report states that 42 percent of the alumni contributed to the endowment._ Also called _per centum_.
I will (pedantically) give my own explanation.

Consider the number 23.45 expressing a value in our decimal system.

The digit 2 is in the tens place.
The digit 3 is in the units place.
The digit 4 is in the tenths place.
The digit 5 is in the hundredths place.

The dictionary definition is telling us that we can consider a number as representing some amount of hundredths. This can be convenient, especially if we dislike fractons.

It is perfectly and 100% correct to refer to .14 as 14 percent.
We should refer to .14 as 14 percent*s only if we would say it is 14 hundredthses. I would never say hundredthses.*

I believe that timepeac has adequately explained the Scientific American example sited earlier.

I'm hopeful that people will reconsider their belief that the dictionaries support the view that .14 is 14 percents.

Exhausted from my rant,
AWordLover


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## winklepicker

Well we can't let this thread lie fallow can we? 

_Per centum_ comes from the Latin, shortened to _per cent_. _Per_ meaning _through _or _by_, _centum_ meaning _a hundred_. _Per_ is therefore a preposition and _centum_ is a noun. No adverbs here that I can see.


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## timpeac

winklepicker said:


> Well we can't let this thread lie fallow can we?
> 
> _Per centum_ comes from the Latin, shortened to _per cent_. _Per_ meaning _through _or _by_, _centum_ meaning _a hundred_. _Per_ is therefore a preposition and _centum_ is a noun. No adverbs here that I can see.


Not saying that "percent" is an adverb, but a preposition and a noun can act as an adverb.

He did it by stealth = he did it stealthfully.


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## Aiden83

I believe that we can consider per cent as an adverb.

The water tank was mostly full.
The water tank was 80 per cent full.

mrbilal87, 

When you say 





> Percents_ are_ fractions


, should this be percentages are fractions, not percents are fractions? I'm not sure. Anyhow, I think there is a subtlety here:
80 per cent is a fraction, as is
1 per cent, or even a per cent. But per cent without a, 1 or 80 is not a fraction. It is merely <empty numerator>/100

LV4-26,
Consider one and a half per cent. You suggested that, and then later confirmed with your edited post, that you may think to say one and a half per cents.
If we consider 
(one and a half) cakes, 
and keep in mind that a per cent is merely <empty>/100, thus 
(one and a half) (per cent)s
(one and a half) (out of one hundred)s

Sounds funny, but logically makes sense. Indeed, per cent singular seems incorrect here. On the contrary, it would make complete sense to say
one and a half (out of one hundred)
one and a half (per cent).

It has to come down to whether we can consider per cent as a noun, which would support the cake example, or to be "out of one hundred"

If we incorrectly consider that per cent is a full fraction (i.e. not empty in the numerator) equal to 1/100, 
(per cent)
(1/100)
then it is easy to see why we would say 1.5 per cent:
1.5*(1/100)
1.5(per cent)
This might be why per cent is so much more acceptable than per cents, because as an engineer I would never say 1.5y as 1.5ys. As long as per cent is considered as a complete fraction by so many it is hard to justify using per cents





> (2) On the other hand, it can behave exactly like any ordinary noun (and I'm not talking of the _percent_ that means _percentage_) at least in one case, i.e. when you say :
> _Half *a* percent.
> _If you can say _half *a* percent_, you could easily imagine saying _*80 percent*s*, _couldn't  you? But you can't. It wouldn't make sense when you think of (1).
> I would say that such a phrase as _half a percent_ is strongly suspect to me, logically speaking. Also note that, in this case, you can no longer write it in two words (?half a per cent). Or can you? I'd have to check. If yes, then it's even dodgier than I thought.
> 
> EDIT : You *can.*



I just realised that I too succumbed to treating per cent as a whole fraction.

When I said:
The water tank was mostly full.
 The water tank was 80 per cent full.

I replaced mostly with 80 per cent. 80 per cent altogether may seem like an adverb, but per cent by itself I think *winklepicker made the correct conclusion.*


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## mrbilal87

> When you say      Quote:
> Percents_ are_ fractions
> , should this be percentages are fractions, not percents are fractions? I'm not sure. Anyhow, I think there is a subtlety here:
> 80 per cent is a fraction, as is
> 1 per cent, or even a per cent. But per cent without a, 1 or 80 is not a fraction. It is merely <empty numerator>/100


Now I'm confused. 

It doesn't seem like often that you just refer to a "per cent" without some numerator being implied. I always thought of "per cent" and "percentage" as synonyms. 80 per cent is the same as 80/100, which is a fraction. But even if the numerator were not given (say, x), it would still be a fraction.


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## clevermizo

winklepicker said:


> Well we can't let this thread lie fallow can we?
> 
> _Per centum_ comes from the Latin, shortened to _per cent_. _Per_ meaning _through _or _by_, _centum_ meaning _a hundred_. _Per_ is therefore a preposition and _centum_ is a noun. No adverbs here that I can see.



It's a fallacy to use etymology to recapitulate synchronic usage in a different language, in my opinion. That's like saying "communicate" can only be used as an adjective or a participle because it derives from a Romance past participle, when we clearly have lexicalized it as a verb. While we do use _per_ as a separate preposition, we most certainly do not use _centum_ which does not exist in English. _Percent_ acts on its own, apparently adverbially as well. This is also reflected in its orthography as a single word.

Besides, see _timpeac_'s post. Plenty of preposition+noun complexes get used adverbially. What about _I'll have it done by noon_?


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## Nonstar

Hi, 
80 percent or 80 percents?
The answer to this question is 80 percent. Will you say 80 percent or 80 percents from now on?

Love this forum!!


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## Phil-Olly

Since nobody seems to have mentioned it:

Has anyone noticed the persistent use on the BBC of the phrase 'half of one per cent', which always seems to me to be unduly unwieldy.  Why don't they simply say 'a half per cent' (i.e. one half per hundred) ?

Could it be that some dictat from the powers-that-be in the BBC discourages that awful phase 'half a percent'?

(Picking up on Panjan's analogy with miles per hour, I've always thought it would sound really stupid to say 'My car's maximum speed is half a perhour more than yours.')


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## ellenhighwater

SIMPLY PUT:

There's no such thing as a "percent" - it's a "percentage". 

_Per cent_ (two words) comes from the Latin, "out of a hundred" 

- so 80 per cent means 80 out of a hundred. You wouldn't say 80 out of _a hundreds_.


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## clevermizo

Phil-Olly said:


> Since nobody seems to have mentioned it:
> 
> Has anyone noticed the persistent use on the BBC of the phrase 'half of one per cent', which always seems to me to be unduly unwieldy.  Why don't they simply say 'a half per cent' (i.e. one half per hundred) ?
> 
> Could it be that some dictat from the powers-that-be in the BBC discourages that awful phase 'half a percent'?
> 
> (Picking up on Panjan's analogy with miles per hour, I've always thought it would sound really stupid to say 'My car's maximum speed is half a perhour more than yours.')



For some reason "half per cent" sounds awkward to me. I always say "point five percent". But I also work in science and there's no good way to say 0.02% other than "point oh two percent," so I'm used to spelling out numbers.


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## liliput

"Half a percent" is not correct.
Both "half percent" and "point five percent" are open to misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
I believe this is why news programmes in the UK insist on "half of one percent" - for the sake of clarity. It may be unwieldy but it's clear and unambiguous.

I think the original question has been dealt with. 80 percent is a single figure meaning 80 out of one hundred, not 80 out of several hundreds so it can't be 80 percents. In the context given it should be considered as a single figure "80%" not "80 %s". If you had a list of 80 such figures (5%, 7%, 23%, 90%, etc.) you could say that you had 80 percentages, so even in that context you wouldn't say 80 percents.


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## JulianStuart

liliput said:


> "Half a percent" is not correct.
> Both "half percent" and "point five percent" are open to misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
> I believe this is why news programmes in the UK insist on "half of one percent" - for the sake of clarity. It may be unwieldy but it's clear and unambiguous.


I, too have a science background and perhaps that's why I don't understand what else they could mean besides 0.5%.  I'm truly curious what other interpretations people have for "half percent" and "point five percent"?


liliput said:


> I think the original question has been dealt with. 80 percent is a single figure meaning 80 out of one hundred, not 80 out of several hundreds so it can't be 80 percents. In the context given it should be considered as a single figure "80%" not "80 %s". If you had a list of 80 such figures (5%, 7%, 23%, 90%, etc.) you could say that you had 80 percentages, so even in that context you wouldn't say 80 percents.


I think the answer was "singular percent (also per cent)" is the usage and the rest of the thread has been wondering why - looking for logic in all the wrong places?


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## liliput

JulianStuart said:


> I, too have a science background and perhaps that's why I don't understand what else they could mean besides 0.5%.  I'm truly curious what other interpretations people have for "half percent" and "point five percent"?
> 
> I think the answer was "singular percent (also per cent)" is the usage and the rest of the thread has been wondering why - looking for logic in all the wrong places?



Not everyone has a science background, nor is everyone as bright as you or I, and broadcasters want to reach the maximum audience. I could quite easily see people misinterpreting these figures as 50% and 5% or even 20% respectively, there may be even wilder interpretations which haven't occurred to me. I'm sure such misinterpretations have occurred in the past - I can't imagine why else the BBC would insist on "half of one percent".


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## JulianStuart

liliput said:


> I could quite easily see people misinterpreting these figures as 50% and 5% or even 20% respectively, there may be even wilder interpretations which haven't occurred to me. I'm sure such misinterpretations have occurred in the past - I can't imagine why else the BBC would insist on "half of one percent".



Dear me, the education system is in worse shape that I had imagined  - the numbers _50_,_ 5 _or _20_ don't sound anything like _half_.  It must be in the way percentages are (or perhaps aren't even) taught in basic education. However, Aunty Beeb must indeed have some reason like you suggest.


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## liliput

JulianStuart said:


> Dear me, the education system is in worse shape that I had imagined  - the numbers _50_,_ 5 _or _20_ don't sound anything like _half_.  It must be in the way percentages are (or perhaps aren't even) taught in basic education. However, Aunty Beeb must indeed have some reason like you suggest.



Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run wild, but someone might hear "half" and think "50%". "Point 5 percent" is not that different to "5 percent" especially if you're not familiar with this way of saying "0.5%". Someone might hear 0.5 and start thinking about 5ths and arrive at 20%. There are plenty of stupid, uneducated and deranged people around, people with poor attention spans, as well as people capable of strange twists of logic and it usually only takes a few people to complain about something for a broadcasting company to overreact and change something.
I have the feeling we've gone somewhat off-topic. Sorry Mods.


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## Raistlin2011

...so what about 200% or even 1000%, there is possibility that your investment made a return of 200% (e.g. lotto) so should i say two hundred percent or percents??

there are lots of arguments...if you do a google search..


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## PaulQ

You should say, "Your investment made a return of two hundred *percent*." 

The full sentence is, "Your investment made a return of two hundred percent [when compared, as a percentage, with your original investment]."


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## Raistlin2011

thank you! I asked this thing since i saw a previous example of 1.5 cakes, since 80% is less than 100% but 200% is great than "1" ...

personally i think the "collective noun" one is the best explanation...for non-English-speaking person.

Hope you guys could agree


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## Raistlin2011

Sorry I did not get your meaning...?   I was saying (if possible) we could treat the word "percent" as a collective noun, for the word " percentage" there should be plural form.

maybe i am wrong ...


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## Packard

LV4-26 said:


> I stand corrected. _Per cent_ is indeed a noun.in the sample sentence. (but it remains true that it takes no 's').
> Consider it as an exception, probably due to its origin as a prepositional phrase (_per_ = for/in/by, _cent._ = _centum_ = one hundred. - Latin and French -).



In AE vernacular it would be "percenters".  For example some of the Hell's Angels are called "one percenters" and they have a "1%" embroidered patch to go on their "colors" (jackets).  The one percenters are those members who have committed a felony, which apparently amounts to one percent of the membership.

(My spell checker does not like "percenters", however.)


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## mother earth

Percent. The plural form of percent is percent.


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## Raistlin2011

how about percentage?


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## PaulQ

"There is always a profit selling food but, depending upon the type of food, the *percentag**es* vary."

"My percentage profit on apples is more than my percentage profit on pears, but both *percentages *are good."


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## Raistlin2011

thanks!!! i got it. I love this forum !!


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## sarah2603

So how does it work with 'of these 40%'? Example:

Whilst over 40% of Barcelona's visits are business related, only 10% of these are within the meetings sector.

Now, what I want to say, is that 10% of these 40% are in the meetings sector. 
1) Is that clear, the way the sentence is phrased?
2) Since percent is singular (I believe lol), I wonder why it's 'of these' and not 'of this'?

Thanks!

Sarah


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## panjandrum

sarah2603 said:


> So how does it work with 'of these 40%'? Example:
> 
> Whilst over 40% of Barcelona's visits are business related, only 10% of these are within the meetings sector.
> 
> Now, what I want to say, is that 10% of these 40% are in the meetings sector.
> 1) Is that clear, the way the sentence is phrased?
> 2) Since percent is singular (I believe lol), I wonder why it's 'of these' and not 'of this'?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Sarah


Welcome to WordReference 

In your example, what do you mean by "10% of these"?
Do you mean that a quarter of the 40% are within the meetings sector?
Or do you mean that a tenth of the 40% are within the meetings sector?

Your sentence is ambiguous.

The percent is singular, but "40% of visits" is plural.  A proportion of a large number of countable entities is still countable, and plural.


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## sarah2603

Yes, I mean a tenth (or 10%) of the 40% are within the meetings sector.
Why is it ambiguous though? Makes perfect sense to me 

Well, yes, it's clear to me that the 40% are plural, as they are 'of the visits'. But the 10% are 'of the 40%'...?! Or do you mean, considering visits is plural, 40% is plural, and considering 40% is plural, the 10% of the 40% must be plural, too?


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## Andygc

sarah2603 said:


> Whilst over 40% of Barcelona's visits are business related, only 10% of these are within the meetings sector.
> 
> Now, what I want to say, is that 10% of these 40% are in the meetings sector.
> 1) Is that clear, the way the sentence is phrased?
> 2) Since percent is singular (I believe lol), I wonder why it's 'of these' and not 'of this'?


Although 10% of these 40% is clear to me, I am used to reading figures in research papers. Many journalists, on the other hand, frequently get percentages very badly wrong and could easily misinterpret this. I would avoid all confusion by writing _Whilst over 40% of Barcelona's visits are business related, only one tenth of these are within the meetings sector_.

It is plural because you are referring to the _visits_, not _percent_. Percent is merely a modifier defining which visits you mean.

Whilst many of Barcelona's visits are business related, only one tenth of these are within the meetings sector.

Edit - perhaps that point is not clear - by substituting a different modifier for "over 40 %", the plurality becomes evident.


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## JulianStuart

sarah2603 said:


> Yes, I mean a tenth (or 10%) of the 40% are within the meetings sector.
> Why is it ambiguous though? Makes perfect sense to me
> 
> Well, yes, it's clear to me that the 40% are plural, as they are 'of the visits'. But the 10% are 'of the 40%'...?! Or do you mean, considering visits is plural, 40% is plural, and considering 40% is plural, the 10% of the 40% must be plural, too?


10% of the 40% means only 4% of the total visits.  Is that what you mean?


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## coolieinblue

I would use 'singular form' because 'fragments or multiples' is already in my mind.


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## Andygc

coolieinblue said:


> I would use 'singular form' because 'fragments or multiples' is already in my mind.


Please could you explain what you mean by that?


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## PaulQ

dn88 said:


> _He was taught to use fractions and *percents*._


_He was taught to use fractions and *percentages*._


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## Packard

"80 percent" will always be singular because is refers to a _*single*_ segment that is composed of 80% of the whole.


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## mplsray

PaulQ said:


> _He was taught to use fractions and *percentages*._



The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary, and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary all show _percentage_ as being one meaning of _percent,_ with the American Heritage specifying that the plural of _percent_ used in this sense is _percents._ It is a usage does not strike me as being even the slightest bit odd.

The Oxford English Dictionary shows _percent_ as first been used with that meaning in 1721.


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## PaulQ

I suggest looking at Google n-gram viewer for '*per cents*' v. *'per cents' *v. *'percentages'* in both AE and BE. *Percentages* overtook both other terms in ~1875 and thence rose swiftly. It is presently ~200 times as common as *percents* with *per cents* being all but obsolete.


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## mplsray

PaulQ said:


> I suggest looking at Google n-gram viewer for '*per cents*' v. *'per cents' *v. *'percentages'* in both AE and BE. *Percentages* overtook both other terms in ~1875 and thence rose swiftly. It is presently ~200 times as common as *percents* with *per cents* being all but obsolete.



I suggest this Google n-gram for "decimals and percents,decimals and percentages". A search of Google Books for "decimals and percents" shows it to be much used when the subject is the teaching of mathematics, and it shows up in book titles and when discussing mathematical tests.


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## stephenlearner

This thread is fantanstic. From the first post down to this place, I have got the impression:
80 percent = 80 per cent= 80 per hundred.
Do you say 80 per hundreds?
I don't.

Maybe it was first used as per cent, but over time it became percent. 
I am not sure. We can trace its history.


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## wandle

It was first used as _per centum_, which is Latin, meaning 'for every hundred'.
This became abbreviated to 'per cent.' which is still in my view the correct way to spell it.


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## Andygc

mplsray said:


> I suggest this Google n-gram for "decimals and percents,decimals and percentages". A search of Google Books for "decimals and percents" shows it to be much used when the subject is the teaching of mathematics, and it shows up in book titles and when discussing mathematical tests.


Repeat the same ngram with British English selected, and _percents_ vanishes. 
As you mention book titles:
Repeat it with "Pecents,Percentages" (the search is case-sensitive) and Percents just creeps into BE in the late 1980s.
Repeat that in AE and Percentages greatly outnumbers Percents.
It seems likely that _percents _is almost entirely an AE term.


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