# How should I study?



## Bilbo Baggins

Hello:
I hope to become fluent in MSA and the Cairene dialect. I've been studying MSA now for three weeks but I haven't really even looked at the Cairene stuff yet. Should I be studying both at the same time? Should I master MSA first and then move on? Thanks!


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## Josh_

While it is might be possible to learn both at the same time, my personal opinion is that it is probably better to learn one to some degree of proficiency before started the other so as to avoid getting mixed up.  As for which to learn first, it is up to you.  Some will say that learning MSA first is the best approach while others might say learning a dialect before MSA is better.  I don't think it really matters either way.  I would say that since you have already started MSA to stick with that, and after you have attained a reasonable degree of proficiency start on colloquial.


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## ayed

I agree with Josh's views .It is better to live with MSA and after a period of time as you feel yourself gor used to Arabic, you can pick up the preferred or desired dialect .


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks guys!


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## Taalib

I think also everyone here would agree that commitment and longevity are just as important (perhaps more so) as sequence of study.  In the long term, fellow non-native speakers of Arabic I know who have stayed with the language for years have about equivalent skills in either MSA or their chosen dialect--for instance, it did not really matter whether they did two years of intensive MSA first and then a year of Palestinian dialect, or vice-versa, or everything mixed in.  What mattered the most was that they stuck with it and let it soak in.  You're doing great so far, keep at it!


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## Muwahid

If you know someone fluent in the desired dialect, while you're learning MSA vocabulary make a note of the dialectical word as well, I would stress studying the MSA words firstly and just look over the dialectical words and familiarize yourself with it. For me as someone learning as another language (non native) I can say MSA is a lot easier because some dialects tend to be lazy while lazy talk is easy, it doesn't make sense or follow rules generally, so learn proper always, then later you can speak in dialects. Just like if you were to learn English you'd choose to speak properly, then you'll pick up slang, and learn dialects from other countries.


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## Jackson02

Hello all,

Firsty, thankyou for this site, I'm looking forward in the coming days to take advantage of the wealth of resource here as I cast my line into the adventure of learning Arabic, and one day perhaps I can return the favour and add value here myself.

On to my question...

I have started the adventure and part of my planned self learning program is I'm enroled in a local beginnerd Arabic course, however now I am into it I have realized a few things about learning Arabic. My local courses aim is to simply teach us enough to get-by in an Arabic Speaking country by teaching us 500 basic words and some basic grammar rules.

I now realise that this courses goals and my goals differ alot. So I have some questions regarding my planned way of learning.

Firstly some inital thoughts I have on learning Arabic, any feedback would be appreciated.

A big part of choosing HOW one wants to learn Arabic comes down to what ones goal are. From what I can see there are two basic ways.

One way is to not really learn the alphabet to well, nor learn the words with vowels, essentially just hear the sound and know what it means in English and be able to say it resonably well. We know that if a person can say 1000-2000 words and utalise very basic grammar applications, he or she can get by OK in an Arabic speaking country. Rosetta Stone is an example of this.

However I beleive this person will quickly hit some major walls if they ever want to achieve any semblance of mastery of Arabic.

Another way I see to learn Arabic is to start of with overcoming  the biggest hurdle in learning Arabic and that is to be able to Read and Speak as well as Hear and Write the Arabic alphabet very well in all of it variations of 28 letters, 2-4 forms, and 4 vowel variations. Mastering the alphabet will take the mystery out of the language and enable one to truely "learn" the language as one goes. A big part of why we find Latin languages easier to learn is becuase the inital hurdle of letter sounds and shapes is generally already taken care of. i.e. it's identaical to English for the most part). Al-Kitab seems to do this.

So as I said above, HOW one learns it comes down to WHAT ones goals are. My goal is to achieve eventual mastery however my course goal is just language enjoyment.

So my questions come down to how I should handle this.
Firstly I have taken it upon myself to master the Arabic Alphabet, I am well on the way to doing this thru using a number of resources and am finding it quite enjoyable. It's a great feeling to be able to recognise the Arabic scrawl which before really was uncomprehensable and quite daunting

However, where I am stuck is weather I should learn Vocab without vowels as we are doing in the course OR weather I should add the vowels in myself thru a MSA dictionary and slowly wean myself off of the vowels over time.

From what I've seen most language course that have the goal of mastering the language start out with vowels and wean you off over time. My course whoes goal is to just teach people the basics, no alphabet mastery etc. does not use vowels.

The Audio memory package the course has provided has all the Arabic words written without vowels and the full Audio so we can hear the word correctly and (becuase I'm mastering the Alphabet) recognise the letters and how they relate.

The only reason I can think why I should initally include vowels is for phonetic learning and self learning. Initally having every new word with vowels will allow me to get a fell for the phoneics vs writting of the language it will also enable me to in the future learn words myself when I perhaps don't have an audio recording of the word. For example I might read a word in the newspaper, not know what it is, look it up in a dictionary with the vowels and see how to pronounce it correctly.

The thing with the memory program they have provided is you can edit each card and add in the vowels manually if you wish and end up with a vowel'd set and a non-vowel'd set. So if I wanted to add in vowels I easily could.

Well I look forward to everyones thoughts here, always wise to tap into the adventurers who have been on this path before you.

Thanks alot

Sean


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## Aydintashar

The methods differ for moslems and non-moslems, as the initial barriers are almost non-existent for the former, and pose a big difficulty for the latter. If your native language is European, I would suggest to master the alphabet, learn every word absolutely in the arabic alphabet, but be somewhat indifferent towards vowel-endings in the first few months. You will switch in afterwards. By the way, what is your interest in Arabic based on?


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## Jackson02

Aydintashar said:


> The methods differ for moslems and non-moslems, as the initial barriers are almost non-existent for the former, and pose a big difficulty for the latter. If your native language is European, I would suggest to master the alphabet, learn every word absolutely in the arabic alphabet, but be somewhat indifferent towards vowel-endings in the first few months. You will switch in afterwards. By the way, what is your interest in Arabic based on?


 
Maasalama Aydintashar,

Absolutely agree in mastering the alphabet, a must for someone who wants to master the language and not just get by.

Also I agree that one should learn vocab in the Arbaic alphabet not the english Transliterate. big mistake.

Where I'm stuck is weather it is wiser to learn vocab without vowels or with vowels intially and then wean off them??

I'd like to hear some reasoning if you have it as I am concerned that I am going to set myself up for hardship later on if I choose the wrong "style" of learning.

In regards to reasoning, My wife and I have made a big decision to move our careers over to the "Aid Sector". This is one of our first practical steps. Our contacts in the "Industry" suggest we learn one of the main Aid languages, namily, Arabic, Spanish, French. Since French and Spanish can be self taught relatively easily, we figured we should attack Arabic with the help of some local courses and such. Fortunately we have some Iraqis in our local community who are more then helpful but just a little lacking in Pedigogy theory. 

Hence my questions. It's hard to find Arabic teachers and course in New Zealand who arn't just bilingual speakers and who are actual Arabic "professors".

Sean


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## Ghabi

Jackson02 said:


> Where I'm stuck is weather it is wiser to learn vocab without vowels or with vowels intially and then wean off them??


Dear Sean, I don't understand what you mean by "learning vocab without vowels". You mean to write down the new words you learn in the Arabic alphabet but without marking the vowels?


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## Aydintashar

Actually, there is a misunderstanding. When people say "Arabic words without vowels", they mean "word endings". The vowels which are part of the original word are called "حرکة", but these vowels change and additional vowels are suffixed to the word for inflection. If you learn words without vowels altogether, you will not even be able to pronounce them!
Therefore, Sean meant learning words without paying much attention to vowel changes that occur in the sentence.
As regards Seans question, I am afraid the Iraqis will not be helpful in the beginning. They can even create difficulties, since they will usually use colloquial language, not good for you in the beginning. They will be of great help once you have developed a certain level of proficiency.
Once again I stress to go ahead learning the language, without letting the morphology create an obstacle for you. Choosing Arabic was a great decision.
Good luck
Aydin


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## Jasmine_Chila

Lots of people begin learning MSA first, and this is the more traditional method taught in most Universities. However, depending on your circumstances and of course, personal learning style, this can change.

Some people find it more interesting to begin using colloquial language because in the early stages of language learning we usually need some excitement to keep us involved - for example, learning Cairene Arabic you can learn through songs, chatting to people, and movies. 

With MSA you can read newspapers and watch the news, read books and more. 

I personally began with MSA for a while, about 1 year and a half ago, but I wasn't deadly into grammar and mainly learned vocabulary and the script. In January, I moved to Egypt and obviously now my shift has changed and while I understand the Egyptian Dialect to a degree, I can't even begin to read a newspaper. 

But whatever you do, I'd suggest learning the alphabet first. It will help you with pronunciation however the Cairene accent and methods of writing it might screw with your grammar:

(for example, many people when speaking colloquially write انتي for girls and انت for boys. Grammatically, this would screw up the idea of short vowels in MSA.)


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## פפאיה

Muwahid said:


> . For me as someone learning as another language (non native) I can say MSA is a lot easier because some dialects tend to be lazy while lazy talk is easy, it doesn't make sense or follow rules generally, so learn proper always, then later you can speak in dialects. Just like if you were to learn English you'd choose to speak properly, then you'll pick up slang, and learn dialects from other countries.


 
I agree with what have been said so far, but I just want to note that I don't agree at all with the saying that colloquial language has no rules or doesn't make sense. Maybe for someone starting with the complex grammar of MSA, it might seem so, but once you start studying a dialect, you realise how complex and interesting it really is, and how much you have to learn to master it - not just proverbs, names of foods and swearwords, but a not-less-complex grammar, different vocabulary and a completely new way of understanding the language.

I just said all that so as not to leave the impression that once you master MSA, your work is done as for knowing Arabic. There is still a long way to go, depending, of course, on how much you wish to know.


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## Jackson02

Hey guys,

I value your feedback so much, thank you.

To clarify my question.

There is essentially 4 parts to learning MSA as far as I can tell
1) Master the Alphabet - Read, Speak, Hear, Write
2) Learn heaps of Vocabulary
3) Understand and master the use of Grammar rules etc
4) Usage - actually using the language - putting it all together

Where my question lies is in regards to Learning Vocabulary. I have noticed that there are two different types of programs out there.

1) Some programs let you hear the word and then see it written in the Arabic script. This is good.

2) Some programs let you hear the word and then see it written in Arabic script with the "Vowels" added.
i.e. Fatha, Dammah, Kasrah, Sukuon. and then they wean you off needing the vowels.

Essentially having the vowels helps you understand the true pronounciation of the word.

The program I am using in line with the course, who's tutor is unfortunately not very experianced but is bilingual has vocabulary WITHOUT the vowels, as it is normally written in a newspaper lets say. BUT the program allows you to go thru and edit the words. I could therefore add in the vowels myself as a learning tool and then take them out later.

I'm trying to wrap my head around which plan would be best in view of my desire to eventually master the language over the next 2-3 years. Yes I plan to put alot of time into it.

Thank you in advanced

Sean


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## Jackson02

When I'm taling about vowels I beleive that I mean "Haraka"?
 
Does that help?
 
Sean


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## londonmasri

Aydintashar said:


> The methods differ for moslems and non-moslems, as the initial barriers are almost non-existent for the former, and pose a big difficulty for the latter.



What do you mean Aydintashar?  Arabic is a language; religous affiliation is irrelevant. Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of muslims are in fact non-arabs. Even if on is able to read Arabic for religious purposes, they would have still had to have learnt at some stage. 



Jackson02 said:


> When I'm taling about vowels I beleive that I mean "Haraka"?
> 
> Does that help?
> 
> Sean



Yes, you are refferring to 'Harakaat' or 'tashkeel'. 

Learn with tashkeel unless until you know the words well enough to be able to read them without tashkeel. Be careful not too bogged down on very minute things - good luck!


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## Jackson02

londonmasri said:


> Yes, you are refferring to 'Harakaat' or 'tashkeel'.
> 
> Learn with tashkeel unless until you know the words well enough to be able to read them without tashkeel. Be careful not too bogged down on very minute things - good luck!


 
Thanks Londonmasri,

So the next trick is I need to find a good dictionary that has each word in it WITH the Harakaat so I can make the changes.

Looking at the very last set of cards in the program this is perhaps the hardest thing the program might give you. It teaches about 2500 different word cards, perhaps 1500 words all up at my guess.

ذهبت الطالبة التي كانت تزورنا.​The student who visited us has left. (feminine)

OR

وصل الطالبان اللذان نجحا.​The two students who succeeded have arrived. (Dual Masculine)

OR

رأيت العمال الذين يشتغلون في المصنع.​I saw the workers who are working in the factory. (masculine)

It also gives us us the audio of the sentence or word.

So...is it just as easy to simply go into a dictionary and find the word with the Harakaat, or will there be some pitfalls to this plan? Again the program allows one to edit each card so I can add in the Hakaraat if I like, I just don't want to make mistakes or for it to be very very hard. i.e. take longer then 30-60 sec per card.

Any advice appreciated

Also londonmasri, would you be able to explain your logic behind going with the Hakaraat first, again I understand from other friends who have learn't non Latin labguages that you have to set up the right plan to learn it otherwise you can create problems for yourself later on.

I look forward to your reply

Thank you


Sean


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## Ghabi

Aydintashar said:


> Actually, there is a misunderstanding. When people say "Arabic words without vowels", they mean "word endings". The vowels which are part of the original word are called "حرکة", but these vowels change and additional vowels are suffixed to the word for inflection. If you learn words without vowels altogether, you will not even be able to pronounce them!


After reading what Sean writes above, I think I've understood him correctly: he actually means the حرکة, not the إﻋﺮﺍﺏ. But then that begs the question (as you ask): how can one pronounce a word if one doesn't know the vowels?

When one learns a new word, even if one's an Arabic native, one would naturally write down the vowels. Otherwise how can one know how to pronounce it? Take the written form قدر as an example. It can actually represent three different words: _qadr_ "extent", _qidr_ "pot" and _qadar_ "fate". When I learn the new word _qidr_, then of course I would mark the vowel and write it as قِدْر in my notebook.

However, once you've become familiar with the Arabic morphology, in many cases you can pronounce a word automatically. For example, I just learnt the word انتهاز "opportunism" yesterday. When I wrote it down in my notebook, I didn't mark the vowels. Why? Because I know that, with this particular consonant pattern (alif-C-taa'-C-alif-C) it has to be pronounced as _intihaaz_, and it's the verbal noun of _intahaza_, from the root _n-h-z_ ... etc.

Dear Sean, I hope you get the picture.


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## Jackson02

Ghabi said:


> After reading what Sean writes above, I think I've understood him correctly: he actually means the حرکة, not the إﻋﺮﺍﺏ. But then that begs the question (as you ask): how can one pronounce a word if one doesn't know the vowels?
> 
> When one learns a new word, even if one's an Arabic native, one would naturally write down the vowels. Otherwise how can one know how to pronounce it? Take the written form قدر as an example. It can actually represent three different words: _qadr_ "extent", _qidr_ "pot" and _qadar_ "fate". When I learn the new word _qidr_, then of course I would mark the vowel and write it as قِدْر in my notebook.
> 
> However, once you've become familiar with the Arabic morphology, in many cases you can pronounce a word automatically. For example, I just learnt the word انتهاز "opportunism" yesterday. When I wrote it down in my notebook, I didn't mark the vowels. Why? Because I know that, with this particular consonant pattern (alif-C-taa'-C-alif-C) it has to be pronounced as _intihaaz_, and it's the verbal noun of _intahaza_, from the root _n-h-z_ ... etc.
> 
> Dear Sean, I hope you get the picture.


 
Great explaination Ghabi, Thank you so much.

These are my thougths exactly. I get the feeling that if I start off by learning vocab with the "vowels" included I will be forced to look more at the "phonics" of the language instead of just matching shape with word meaning.

So now that I can see that learning with vowels is an important step (not to mention the way native speakers tend to do it as well) and shouldn't be missed I now need to edit the cards that I am using in the program.

Is it as simple as just looking in a English / Arabic dictionary that has the vowels included and making the changes or will this turn into a mine field somehow?

Thank you again for all your feedback

Sean


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## Ghabi

Jackson02 said:


> I get the feeling that if I start off by learning vocab with the "vowels" included I will be forced to look more at the "phonics" of the language instead of just matching shape with word meaning.


There's no way of shunning the "phonics", I'm afraid, simply because human language (except sign language) is based on sound. Every writing system, whether Arabic or Chinese or English, represents pronouncable words. I'm not sure if it's possible that one can "just match word shapes with word meanings".


> Is it as simple as just looking in a English / Arabic dictionary that has the vowels included and making the changes or will this turn into a mine field somehow?


 If you've got the audio, you can just listen to it and mark the vowels of the words accordingly, without consulting a dictionary (which can be very time-consuming, not to mention tedious). Just mark the vowels whenever there can be ambiguities. (Actually vowels are sometimes marked in ordinary Arabic texts, in order to avoid ambiguities.) And as Londonmasri wisely says: "Be careful not too bogged down on very minute things"! Good luck.


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## Jackson02

Ghabi said:


> There's no way of shunning the "phonics", I'm afraid, simply because human language (except sign language) is based on sound. Every writing system, whether Arabic or Chinese or English, represents pronouncable words. I'm not sure if it's possible that one can "just match word shapes with word meanings".
> 
> If you've got the audio, you can just listen to it and mark the vowels of the words accordingly, without consulting a dictionary (which can be very time-consuming, not to mention tedious). Just mark the vowels whenever there can be ambiguities. (Actually vowels are sometimes marked in ordinary Arabic texts, in order to avoid ambiguities.) And as Londonmasri wisely says: "Be careful not too bogged down on very minute things"! Good luck.


 
Thanks Ghabi,

By just match word shapes with word meanings I was refering to the way Rosetta stone does it, they give you the sound and a picture. I started using the Arabic Rosetta Stone and just felt it was completely wrong. Lets take "Bint" for example. You'd hear "Bint" and see a picture of a 12 yr old girl. Does "Bint" mean girl, female, child, little girl, singular female? If you learn this way you'll end up hitting a very big wall once you want to get past just being a novice at the language.

You pretty much answered my question. Basically the Arabic vowels '_" and "-" and "*" are pretty straight forward and can't really be screwed up to easily.

Well guys, you've been a huge help, I'm definately more comfortable with my learning system now. The main reason I was getting so bogged down was cos so many of the people I have talked to have said set your goals and make sure the way you learn the langauge is in line with what you want to achieve.

Now I have that set I can get on with it with peace of mind.

Thank-you so much guys what a great resource.

Cheers

Sean


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## londonmasri

Great advice by Ghabi.

I would say if you your learning materials have no tashkeel on them then find materials which do have tashkeel. Then at some stage you can use the ones without. 

Your learning system will keep changing as you go along so don't worry about finding the right one...
Enjoy!!


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## Jackson02

Hey guys,

Some great news I have found a program that adds in the "short vowels" for you.

About half of them are spot on accurate, the other half have suggestions that are right most of the time.

So I had two real quick questions.

1) Is it appropriate for me to post about 15 words each week (all in one go) on your website that have had the "short vowels" added so I can have you guys check the "short vowel" addition accuracy? This will only be for about 12 weeks of the course.

I most certainly don't want to abuse this resource, so I thought I'd better ask.


2) When it comes to Vocabulary aquisition, I know it pretty much just comes down to rote learning and the program they have given us has a great flashcard program with it with really good word selection (just no vowels added). (Although I understand there is alot more to Language aqusition then just Vocab) my plan is to jump into this flashcard program for 0:10 minutes every hour or so, 6 days a week (great being self employed working from home). So far I am finding this a really great way to do the memorization as it spreads the load. I find I'm mastering the alphabet very quickly.

This means I am spending about 8 hours / week just for memorizing Arabic vocab. (not including grammar and class and listening to stuff and playing with the language etc etc etc)

How many words do you think I could memorize / master each week with this 8 hours? I'm currently thinking 50, but I have no experiance with languages.

I ask this cos an aid worker friend of mine has promised I can tag along to his next middle east trip if I can pass his language test that essentially needs 2000 words mastered and a low grasp of Grammar and usage. I figured I can get there in 9 months if I learn 50 each week. Apparently you have 80% of every day language learnt if you know 2000 words. However I know that having 2000 and USING 2000 words are two different things, however he feels it won't be a complete waste as an inital emersion trip if I can have 2000 words under my belt.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks for everyones help, I look forward to your replies.


Cheers

Sean


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## Finland

Hello!



Jackson02 said:


> 2) When it comes to Vocabulary aquisition, I know it pretty much just comes down to rote learning and the program they have given us has a great flashcard program with it with really good word selection (just no vowels added). (Although I understand there is alot more to Language aqusition then just Vocab) my plan is to jump into this flashcard program for 0:10 minutes every hour or so, 6 days a week (great being self employed working from home). So far I am finding this a really great way to do the memorization as it spreads the load. I find I'm mastering the alphabet very quickly.


 
Just one hint from me: I strongly advise you to to learn the plurals of the words at the same time as the singulars. I did this and it helped me hugely afterwards. So, instead of learning "girl - بنت", try to learn "girl - بنت، بنات". Otherwise you will have to go through the list of words you have learnt all over again to learn the plurals (at least the broken ones).

HTH

S


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## Jackson02

Great stuff Finalnd, thanks for the advice.

Sean


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## cherine

Jackson02 said:


> 1) Is it appropriate for me to post about 15 words each week (all in one go) on your website that have had the "short vowels" added so I can have you guys check the "short vowel" addition accuracy? This will only be for about 12 weeks of the course.
> 
> I most certainly don't want to abuse this resource, so I thought I'd better ask.


Hi Sean,

I'm glad you asked, and I'm sorry to tell you that this won't be possible in the forum. The forum rules state that each thread should have only one word/sentence/question.
So, you can either open a couple of threads each day, or ask for help through private messages. (If anyone is willing to help Sean through PM, please let him know that, also by PM  ).
And you can check the forum's existing threads. There are many threads with basic words, that other beginners had opened before. I hope you'll find them useful.

Also, regarding vowels, if you practice adding vowels to words while listening to them being pronounced, you'll gradually be able to add the vowels yourself with no need for help from anyone. Even if this will take some time.

And good luck again with your learning


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## Jackson02

Thanks Cherine for the clarification.

 I was getting quite frustrated with trying to wrap my head around the best way to learn. Honestly I started down the Rosetta Stone, no alphabet, no vowels, transliterated route and that would have created all kinds of minefields.

All I can say now is I'm pretty excited, with the right tools in hand I can really excell at this and have the peace of mind that I'm doing it the "best" way.

Thanks again for everyones help

Cheers

Sean


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## kepulauan

Marhaban

I'm in the same limbo too. I think grammar is very important so I appreciate the seriousness of getting a lot of rules mixed up.

Still i've been thinking... there is a limited amount of teaching material for the dialects while MSA has heaps of advanced recources, dictionaries, grammar books and endless reading material. So is it really such a good idea to start with MSA, then switch to a dialect, finish with that, and then go back to MSA? Or would it be better to finish that one textbook i have (Khaliji in my case) and then concentrate on the other?


And since this thread has turned into a vowel discussion:
Would it look weird to natives somehow if I get into the habit of writing with harakaat on all occations?

Thanks a lot!


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