# How



## FRENFR

Peekaboo.

Started being tested by Lady FRENFR recently.  I am being tested on vocab lists!  How jolly exciting.

A question has arisen.

Meddig = how long.
Mettől = from when.

1.  Is there a connection between the ME + double consonant?  Does this appear elsewhere, or is it just a boring old coincidence?

2.  Can I please read some examples of 'meddig'?  Are these the same in translation:  (For) How long have you beeing studying/studied Hungarian (for)?

3.  Might somebody be able to give me some more 'how + X' phrases?  I am sure it is not as simple as I would like (experience shows).

I don't mean the question 'how' + verb...  I mean adverbial phrases like "How much time do we have?"  "How far do we have to drive?"  "How come we must leave at 10am?" (I know 'how come' is colloquial, but maybe it translates the same?)...

4.  "From when"... this is a weak translation.  Any examples?

Thanks, chaps and chapesses

FRENFR.


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## Zsanna

Hello,

Have mercy on us, please. Could we have fewer questions at a time?



FRENFR said:


> Meddig = how long. *or* until which point - in time or space
> Mettől = from when. *or* from what time, from which point in space
> 1. Is there a connection between the ME + double consonant? Does this appear elsewhere, or is it just a boring old coincidence?


I'm sure there is but in spite of my linguistic studies in different universities I couldn't give you the exact reason without further investigation - that may indicate how "hidden" the reasons may be. 
(I'd say that "me" (me+C?) could be an old root - probably connected to our present day "mely" = which/such. The reason for the double consonant is more obscure. But what is obvious is that it is the first consonant of the suffix that follows that is doubled (me + *t* + *t*ől). 
When the following suffix begins with a vowel -- in the case of *me + dd + ig* -- a double d is introduced for some reasons. But I really don't think it is important for learning to speak or interpret in Hungarian well.)

I can think of another example "merre?" (= me+r+re = which direction?) but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more. 



FRENFR said:


> 2. Can I please read some examples of 'meddig'?


Meddig maradsz az irodában? 
How long are you going to stay in the office? (Referring to the future, not starting yet.) (i.e. 1. until what time or 2.for how long -> possible answers: 1. until 4 p.m. 2. for 2 hours)

Meddig tart az óra? How long is the lesson? (Referring to the future, may have already started.) (Same as above: asking for either until when or the duration.)

Meddig voltál Belgiumban? How long did you stay in Belgium? (Refers to a finished past action - now you are somewhere else.) (Same as above but the periods can be longer, obviously: until Tuesday or for two weeks.)



FRENFR said:


> Are these the same in translation: (For) How long have you beeing studying/studied Hungarian (for)?


Not really... 
The trouble with this question is that the Pres.Perf. is not used to indicate _when_ an action takes place (the action itself is not important, either!) but a connection. (... doesn't matter.) 
The point is the our meddig, however, is closely connected to both the (type of) action and the time it actually happened.

The translation of your question would be most likely:
*Mióta/Milyen rég óta* tanulsz magyarul?

If you used _Meddig_ + Present Tense (= _Meddig tanulsz magyarul_?), it'd indicate that it is happening at the moment of speaking and you like to know when it is going to finish. 
You could try _Meddig_ + the Past Tense (as the Present Perfect is often translated with it into Hungarian) (= _Meddig tanultál magyarul_?) but then (no good again!) you'd refer to an action that had a certain duration but in an already finished period (e.g. yesterday afternoon) so it wouldn't translate your question, again. 
So I suspect that the point in our _meddig_ is that it always (in the present, past or future) implies a definite end of the period the action takes (took/will take) place of an action that is important in the message. 
_Mióta_ is the one that allows an "open ending" to the action (i.e. when it hasn't finished yet) and therefore allows a wider range of meaning to the actual message behind the sentence.



FRENFR said:


> I am sure it is not as simple as I would like (experience shows).


Unfortunately, you are perfectly right. 
But maybe it is still not so complicated, after all.



FRENFR said:


> "How much time do we have?" => Mennyi időnk van (még)?
> "How far do we have to drive?" => Milyen messze van (this is probably the easiest way to translate what you mean...)
> "How come we must leave at 10am?" => Hogyhogy 10-kor kell indulnunk?


In these examples the correspondance is fairly regular and not surprising.


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## galaxy man

To the first question: the anatomy of *mettol*? 

This might become clear if we first consider the related word: *ettől* = from this [point]. As in: ettől a perctől kezdve = beginning from this minute. The word *ettől* most likely includes the pronoun *ez* = this, and the suffix *-től* = from. In the resulting *eztől*, however, the *z* of the pronoun blended with the *t* of the suffix, hence the double consonant: *ettol.* 

There are many similar formations, all with double consonants: 

ebbe = into this
ebben = in[side] this
ebből = out of this; from this
ehhez = to this
ennek = for this
erre = [in] this direction
erről = of this, about this
evvel = with this
ezzé = [turn] into this

In question form many in this list start with the word *melyik* = which [one], as in *melyikbe, melyikből, melyikhez, melyiknek, melyikkel*.

On the other hand *mettől, meddig *and* merre *start with a *me* syllable, which independently does not seem to exist today, and which, I suspect, is the shortened remainder of *melyik*. But I am not sure what may have caused the metamorphosis in these cases and not in the others.


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## Zsanna

An afterthought.
Although the immediate translation of "how" is "hogy(an)", in the "compound" forms (how long, how many, etc.) it is "milyen" (or "mely" - in older Hungarian!) that starts the question (milyen hosszú, milyen sok stb.) - especially if they are meant really word by word. 
Questions like _how old_ or _how much_ that went through some transformation so may not be used in a strict, (by Hungarian terms) word by word meaning, would have special forms in Hungarian (although I don't know to what extent it could be claimed to be a rule). 
So you'd ask about somebody's age with _Hány éves/ Mennyi idős?_ and for quantity with h_ány_ or m_ennyi._ (The original "hogy" of how is long forgotten, in any case.)


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## Zsanna

galaxy man said:


> This might become clear if we first consider the related word: *ettől* = from this [point].


 
It is useful to mention this, and in the meaning there may even be a connection (inasmuch as "mely" may be answered by a demonstrative, so by "ez" for instance) but I suppose you didn't mean an actual relation between the words "ez" and "mely" (supposing it is really "mely" that is at the origin of that "me+C", I mentioned above)...


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## galaxy man

Zsanna said:


> I suppose you didn't mean an actual relation between the words "ez" and "mely"


 
You are absolutely right, I did not intend to indicate relation between ez and melyik, except that for the majority of these pronoun-suffix structures melyik turns the suffix into a question, and ez turns the suffix into a statement: melyikhez <--> ehhez; melyiknek <--> ennek. 

The riddle for me was this: why mettől, meddig and merre are formed differently, without melyik? Why mettől and not melyiktől, meddig and not melyikig, merre and not melyikre?

Especially when melyiktől, melyikig and melyikre all exist, albeit with slightly different meanings. 

Yet in the questions mettől, meddig and merre the *entire statement form* is preserved (*ez + suffix*), and is preceded only by an *m*.

Where did this m come from? 

I do not know the answer to this question, and can only speculate -- without much foundation -- that the m might be a streamlined remainder of melyik. 

But I would not put my life on it


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## galaxy man

FRENFR said:


> 2. Can I please read some examples of 'meddig'? Are these the same in translation: (For) How long have you beeing studying/studied Hungarian (for





FRENFR said:


> 3. Might somebody be able to give me some more 'how + X' phrases? I am sure it is not as simple as I would like (experience shows).
> 
> I don't mean the question 'how' + verb... I mean adverbial phrases like "How much time do we have?" "How far do we have to drive?" "How come we must leave at 10am?"


 
Sentences (both questions and statements) that include: how well how terribly, how far, how seldom etc. can usually be adequately expressed with *milyen*:

How well they get along! = Milyen jól kijönnek egymással!
How lovely she sings! = Milyen aranyosan énekel!
How long have you known her? = Milyen hosszú ideje ismered?
How far did he go? = Milyen messz[ir]e ment?

With verbs how is usually expressed as hogy or hogyan:
How did they escape? = Hogy[an] menekültek meg?
How could he do this to us? = Hogy[an] tehette ezt velünk?

How come is hogyhogy:
How come you didn't see us there? = Hogyhogy nem láttál minket ott?

The duration (how long) would be: milyen hosszan or milyen sokáig?
How long shall we wait? = Milyen sokáig (mennyi ideig) kell várnunk?

Meddig refers to a boundary point in physical or mental space, or time:
Meddig mehetek el? = Up to which point can I go? 
Meddig kell várnunk? = Up to which point [in time] shall we wait? 

But in everyday (imprecise) questions we do not differentiate much between duration and boundary, so to the question Meddig kell várnom? we may get either: Legfeljebb délig (until noon, at most) or Már csak egy fél óra hosszat (only half an hour more).


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## FRENFR

Thank you all so much.

All noted.  Next question of intrigue coming soon!

Best to all.


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## Ateesh6800

Now, how did this *meddig* form come about?

ez + ig => eddig (up to this point in space or time)
(Don't ask me how the "dd" appeared.)
Either this was formed into a question word:
mi + eddig => meddig
or
mi + ez + ig became meddig.

Similarly:

mi + ez + től => mettől

So... How these words (ettől, eddig, mettől, meddig, mikor, ekkor, akkor, etc.) were historically formed is interesting, but the best idea is to slowly but surely learn each one of them one by one as they are. Noone (no Hungarian) without specialist education would be able to synthetise all these forms from their elements or analyse these forms merely on the basis of their language instinct any more (some are easy, but many aren't). 

*A.*


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## Akitlosz

Zsanna said:


> it is "milyen" (or "mely" - in older Hungarian!)



*No.
* 
Milyen = How, What / Wie, Was für
Mely(ik) = Which / Welche

                       It is an other interrogative word with an other meaning.


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## Zsanna

Akitlosz said:


> *No.*
> 
> Milyen = How, What / Wie, Was für
> Mely(ik) = Which / Welche
> 
> It is an other interrogative word with an other meaning.


 
This is the _present_ meaning but I mentioned the _old_ one because it gave a connection to "mely" which I continue to believe to be more likely at the origin of the "me + double" consonant problem (see the original question).


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