# portuguese - catalan



## avok

Hi people, 

I just wonder about the mutual intelligibility between Portuguese and Catalan ...Has any of you experienced such a thing?  

bye


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## panjabigator

Perhaps these might be of some peripheral interest to you.

*Catalan, French, Portuguese*
*Understanding languages you've never learnt*
*Romance Languages: Mutual Intelligibility*
*Catalan/Spanish/Galician: Mutual Intelligibility*

There is one other one which is good on mutual intelligibility, but I cannot remember where it is.

I wonder how well one can qualify mutual intelligibility between any language and a Catalan speaker.  They all know Spanish, so they should to some degree understand Portuguese (at least written). 

Off the top of my head, I believe Portuguese and Catalan are similar with their vowels not being weak.  That's all that I can think of right now, but I'm sure there is more.


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## avok

panjabigator said:


> Perhaps these might be of some peripheral interest to you.
> 
> *Catalan, French, Portuguese*
> *Understanding languages you've never learnt*
> *Romance Languages: Mutual Intelligibility*
> *Catalan/Spanish/Galician: Mutual Intelligibility*
> 
> There is one other one which is good on mutual intelligibility, but I cannot remember where it is.
> 
> I wonder how well one can qualify mutual intelligibility between any language and a Catalan speaker. They all know Spanish, so they should to some degree understand Portuguese (at least written).
> 
> Off the top of my head, I believe Portuguese and Catalan are similar with their vowels not being weak. That's all that I can think of right now, but I'm sure there is more.


 
merci, 

that's right, almost all catalan speakers speak Spanish, so... it would be very hard to find a monolingual catalan speaker who happened to try to understand spoken Portuguese. !

Ahh.. what about Catalan speakers in France? No Spanish


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## chics

You know that all romance language speakers can at least have a general reading comprehension of all the others romance languages. It doesn't happens with Spanish (or Catalan) and Turkish, for example. As much romance languages one speaks, it's easier.

Speaking it's more difficult, but if both people are interesed, they can more or less communicate. Portuguese and Catalan people don't find the other language difficult to pronunciate (nor Italian, for example. But Spanish has its J and Z, French its vowels...) so it's more easy to copy words, so to learn.

When I was in Portugal I was surprised when I was usually asked to talk in Catalan because it was more understood than Spanish.

It's not easy to separate the "Catalan factor" of bilinguism and Spanish or French, but surely the level of comprehension is the same in the two ways... Why not to ask Portuguese people if they understand Catalan and how much? It's easy to find writing things at the web, and also radios, like this or this.


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## panjabigator

> When I was in Portugal I was surprised when I was usually asked to talk in Catalan because it was more understood than Spanish.



Interesting.  Could they tell by your some Barcelonan accent that you were a Catalan speaker?   I'm also surprised that the Portuguese would find Catalan easier to understand than Spanish, considering the proximity of the languages and the amount of exposure they most certainly get from television etc.


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## chics

Me too. I went with Catalan mates and they heard us speaking. When after one of us "translated" them the sentence into Spanish, they answered that they had understood it better in Catalan. :-S
But "Portuñol" is always very usefull.


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## avok

chics said:


> You know that all romance language speakers can at least have a general reading comprehension of all the others romance languages. It doesn't happens with Spanish (or Catalan) and Turkish, for example. As much romance languages one speaks, it's easier.
> 
> Speaking it's more difficult, but if both people are interesed, they can more or less communicate. Portuguese and Catalan people don't find the other language difficult to pronunciate (nor Italian, for example. But Spanish has its J and Z, French its vowels...) so it's more easy to copy words, so to learn.
> 
> When I was in Portugal I was surprised when I was usually asked to talk in Catalan because it was more understood than Spanish.
> 
> It's not easy to separate the "Catalan factor" of bilinguism and Spanish or French, but surely the level of comprehension is the same in the two ways... Why not to ask Portuguese people if they understand Catalan and how much? It's easy to find writing things at the web, and also radios, like this or this.


 
Hi Chic,

gràcies per la resposta ,

I think some consonants and vowels that dont exist in Spanish, can be found both in Catalan and Portuguese: j, dj, sh etc..

Now, I have become more interested in Catalan 

well, maybe I should ask the some question in the Portuguese forum but I just dont think I shall get any response 

ciao


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## JGreco

> Hi Chic,
> 
> gràcies per la resposta ,
> 
> I think some consonants and vowels that dont exist in Spanish, can be found both in Catalan and Portuguese: j, dj, sh etc..


 
These sounds do exist in the Rio Platenense and the Cariben~o varieties of Castellano. Nazalization of words, aspirations, lentinization of "ch" (exists in Panamanian, Rio Platenense), and the change of the word ending -ado to -ao also exists in Latin America but not in Spain. I have always found this peculiar but I know there was migration out of the Canary Islands and Galicia that may have caused these changes in the structure of the pronunciation of Castellano in Latin America.


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## chics

> the change of the word ending *-ado* to *-ao* exists in Latin America but not in Spain.


 
It's always pronounced *-ao* in Andalucía and also in other areas of Spain. Maybe in most of them! 8-O 

And also we all in Spain can say it in a colloquial register (never in a formal one) or we use it specially in songs. Except Catalans , we are prone to close the *o* from *-ao* so we finnally say *-au*. 

Sorry for my bad English, I've definitely forgotten it at all!


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## avok

JGreco said:


> These sounds do exist in the Rio Platenense and the Cariben~o varieties of Castellano. Nazalization of words, aspirations, lentinization of "ch" (exists in Panamanian, Rio Platenense), and the change of the word ending -ado to -ao also exists in Latin America but not in Spain. I have always found this peculiar but I know there was migration out of the Canary Islands and Galicia that may have caused these changes in the structure of the pronunciation of Castellano in Latin America.


 
hi ,

gracias por tu respuesta

yes..... charming actually, I mean, the Argentinian accent with its "sh." I had an Argentinian friend and she would pronounce "yo" as "sho".
I dont know the lentinization of "ch" though,

bye


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## JGreco

> I dont know the lentinization of "ch" though,


What I refer to is the tendency to pronounce "ch" like "sh" in English. This happens especially in the Panamanian variety of Spanish. I've been to this country quite a few times and have noticed a lot of peculiarities  in their pronunciation  that I haven't found anywhere else. I know for a fact that there has been no formal study in the Castellano spoken in Panama unless someone on this forum knows any study. I know that Andalusian, Gallego, and the spoken Castellano of the Canary Islands influenced this variety of Castellano but I've always wondered if Catalan ever had any influence on the Castellano spoken in Latin America at all. French also has influenced the Castellano in Panama because remember that initially they were the first to begin to build the Panama Canal and many of the migrant workers and the natives had to mingle with the French engineers which brought words such as "petit pois" meaning "peas in English and the word for "bras" which in Panama is "brasiel" instead of the Castellano word "sosten". There are other words but I can not quite remember at the time so if there is any person knowledgeable about this topic maybe they could add to this.


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## avok

JGreco said:


> What I refer to is the tendency to pronounce "ch" like "sh" in English. This happens especially in the Panamanian variety of Spanish. I've been to this country quite a few times and have noticed a lot of peculiarities in their pronunciation that I haven't found anywhere else. I know for a fact that there has been no formal study in the Castellano spoken in Panama unless someone on this forum knows any study. I know that Andalusian, Gallego, and the spoken Castellano of the Canary Islands influenced this variety of Castellano but I've always wondered if Catalan ever had any influence on the Castellano spoken in Latin America at all. French also has influenced the Castellano in Panama because remember that initially they were the first to begin to build the Panama Canal and many of the migrant workers and the natives had to mingle with the French engineers which brought words such as "petit pois" meaning "peas in English and the word for "bras" which in Panama is "brasiel" instead of the Castellano word "sosten". There are other words but I can not quite remember at the time so if there is any person knowledgeable about this topic maybe they could add to this.


 
that's interesting...and yes french "ch" is pronounced as "sh" like in Panama. but are you sure that "all" of panama  speak that way ? may it be a regional accent within Panama.


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## JGreco

> but are you sure that "all" of panama  speak that way ? may it be a regional accent within Panama.



From talking to my grandmother on my fathers side (who is Panamanian of Italian decent), my mother (Is Brazilian Portuguese but lived their for 20 years and visits back a couple times a year), and my experiences there visiting most of the regions throughout my life That pronunciation is quite uniform throughout most of the regions with the exception of the region to the west of the city of David towards the frontier with Costa Rica which has a little more of a provincial castellano flare to their pronunciation. The only major difference I heard when comparing the capital accent versus the countryside is that they tend to imitate or have a mixture of a Caribbean and an Argentine accent while the countryside is more strictly Caribbean in feel and accent. I don't know why they talk like that in the city I guess either they watch a lot of Argentinian films, it is an attempt to sound educated or elitist, or that accent truly developed that way in the city I don't know really.


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## avok

> The only major difference I heard when comparing the capital accent versus the countryside is that they tend to imitate or have a mixture of a Caribbean and an Argentine accent while the countryside is more strictly Caribbean in feel and accent. I don't know why they talk like that in the city I guess either they watch a lot of Argentinian films, it is an attempt to sound educated or elitist, or that accent truly developed that way in the city I don't know really.


 
Argentinian accent in Panama ? that's weird ...are there a lot of Italian Panamanians? hence, the Argentinian-like accent ?


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## JGreco

> Argentinian accent in Panama ? that's weird ...are there a lot of Italian Panamanians? hence, the Argentinian-like accent ?




That could be an idea. My family that is from Panama are descended from Italians who came to Panama and I know of three villages (I think there in Ocu , Aguas Dulces, and El Valle de Anton ( where my family resides) that have a high concentration of Panamanians of Italian decent. When the canal was being built and afterwards there was migration from all over the world. Panama is a melting just the United States and Brazil is but in a very small area. I wish there was a study doe about this but there just not out there. The one unique thing about Panama I do know is there is a lot of Chinese that are there and again I do not know why that is so.


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