# natychmiast, zamiast, natomiast



## Wiatrak

Hi everyone!

Does someone know if these words: _natychmiast_, _zamiast _or _natomiast _have anything to do with _miasto_?

Thanks!


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## LilianaB

Hi. I don't think so. _Natychmist_ -- right away, _zamiast_ -- instead, and _natomiast_ -- however.


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## Thomas1

Wiatrak said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Does someone know if these words: _natychmiast_, _zamiast _or _natomiast _have anything to do with _miasto_?
> 
> Thanks!


According to Brückner, yes, they do.

There is also 'miast' in Polish which means 'zamiast', but it is an archaic word.


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## Wiatrak

Thanks for the url Thomas1.

 So, correct me if i'm wrong, 'natychmiast' was written in the 15th century as 'na tem mieście'. Can this be translated as 'in this place'? And is there somehow a connection to the present-day meaning of 'immediately'?


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## Thomas1

Wiatrak said:


> Thanks for the url Thomas1.
> 
> So, correct me if i'm wrong, 'natychmiast' was written in the 15th century as 'na tem mieście'. Can this be translated as 'in this place'? And is there somehow a connection to the present-day meaning of 'immediately'?


Hello Wiatrak,

You understood it correctly and this is how I'd translate it too.
I don't know what the connection is, but I can hazard a guess:
If you say 'na tem mieście', it can be interpreted as 'right here' and extended to 'right now' (hence the meaning 'immediately').

It may be worth mentioning that 'natychmiast' can also mean 'instead*' (we don't use it with this meaning today, we use 'zamiast' instead). So I'd suspect that it first took on the meaning of 'instead' and then came to mean 'immediately'.
This could be additionally supported by the fact that we sometimes use the word 'miejsce' that can be interpreted to have temporal meaning, e.g. _Wypowiadając tę partię, aktor robi króką pauzę w tym miejscu._ [Saying this part, the actor takes a short pase in this place/moment.]. Or another expression 'z miejsca' meaning 'right away'.

*If you have a look at the English equivalent, you will notice it is etymologically the same:


> [Middle English in sted of, _in place of_ : in, _in_; see * in*1 + stede, _place_; see * stead* + of, _of_; see * of*.]
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/instead


Furthermore, it seems that this is not uncommon in at least some of the European languages:
Spanish: en lugar de
French: au lieu de
Portuguese: em lugar de
German: (an)statt 
Russian:  вме́cто


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## Wiatrak

That's great work Thomas1, you must be right.

The word 'stead' seems also to be connected with the Latin 'statim' which means 'immediately'! So it all comes together now.
I can also add that 'instead of' in Dutch means 'in plaats van' or archaic 'in stede van'.


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## Thomas1

If you have a look at the etymology given by the Oxford English Dictionary, you will see further connections:



> [Com. Teut.: OE. stęde masc., corresp. to OFris. stede, stidi (NFris. städ, WFris. stêd town), OS. stad (?), stedi masc. and fem., place (MLG. stad, stede fem., place, town), MDu. stat, stēde fem., place, town (mod.Du. stad fem., town, stede, stee place), OHG. stat fem., place (MHG. stat, stete fem., place, town, mod.G. statt place, stead, stätte place, site, stadt town), ON. stað-r masc., place (Sw., Da. stad, with the sense ‘town’ from G.), Goth. staþ-s masc., place:—OTeut. *stađi-z:—pre-Teut. *stətí-s (cf. Skr. sthíti standing, position, Gr. στάσις standing, stoppage, L. statim advb. accus., immediately, statio station n.), f. wk.-grade of *stā- to stand.
> A parallel form, OTeut. *stađō(n)- fem., occurs in OHG. stata condition, opportunity, proper time or place (MHG. state, mod.G. statt in certain uses), MLG., Du. stade opportunity, help, ON. staða standing, position, condition. Some of the uses of stead closely approach those of MLG. stade, and may possibly be due to influence from MLG.]


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## Roy776

Thomas1 said:


> Hello Wiatrak,
> 
> You understood it correctly and this is how I'd translate it too.
> I don't know what the connection is, but I can hazard a guess:
> If you say 'na tem mieście', it can be interpreted as 'right here' and extended to 'right now' (hence the meaning 'immediately').
> 
> It may be worth mentioning that 'natychmiast' can also mean 'instead*' (we don't use it with this meaning today, we use 'zamiast' instead). So I'd suspect that it first took on the meaning of 'instead' and then came to mean 'immediately'.
> This could be additionally supported by the fact that we sometimes use the word 'miejsce' that can be interpreted to have temporal meaning, e.g. _Wypowiadając tę partię, aktor robi króką pauzę w tym miejscu._ [Saying this part, the actor takes a short pase in this place/moment.]. Or another expression 'z miejsca' meaning 'right away'.



The connection you made between 'right here' and 'right now' could be correct, Thomas. German does it the same way.
Natychmiast could be translated as 'auf der Stelle' (lit.: na tym miejscu, on the spot/place), but it still means 'right now' / 'immediately'.
And the wording 'z miejsca' reminds me of the German 'vom Fleck weg' (lit. something like: from the spot away) which also means 'right now' or 'immediately'.

And though I'm not entirely sure, 'w tym miejscu' in German 'an dieser Stelle' could also refer to a moment in a play.
_Wypowiedziawszy tą partię, aktor robi krótką pauzę _*w tym miejscu*_.
Seinen Part aufgesagt habend, macht der Akteur _*an dieser Stelle*_ eine kurze Pause.

_I'm not sure if I've got the Polish sentence right here, as I've never used an anterior adverbial participle (and I know it's not really in use, at least I've never seen it in modern use), but the first part of the German sentence sounds highly formal or archaic, too. So please correct me if there are any mistakes.

I suppose that this connection between time and place is at least an Indo-European thing.


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## Ben Jamin

There is one mystical element in the word 'natychmiast': it is the apparent plural form of the word "na tych miast" instead of "na tem miescie".


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## Wiatrak

Ben Jamin said:


> There is one mystical element in the word 'natychmiast': it is the apparent plural form of the word "na tych miast" instead of "na tem miescie".



Hi Ben Jamin! That was bothering me also. 

If I understand Brückner correctly 'na tem mieście' or 'natemieście' was later changed into 'natychmiast' because of this other word 'odtychmiast'. And so somewhere along the way singular has become plural.


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## marco_2

In his etymological dictionary Brückner on another place explains as following: _"miasto _czego", "_zamiasto _(i _namiasto_) czego", skrócone w _zamiast, namiast, _a nawet _miast, _so he considers it as an abbreviated form, not as a plural form of _miasta._


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## Wiatrak

marco_2 said:


> In his etymological dictionary Brückner on another place explains as following: _"miasto _czego", "_zamiasto _(i _namiasto_) czego", skrócone w _zamiast, namiast, _a nawet _miast, _so he considers it as an abbreviated form, not as a plural form of _miasta._



You are probably right in the case of 'zamiast' and 'namiast', but the 'tych' in 'natychmiast' and 'odtychmiast' can only mean plural.


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