# Irregular pronunciation in Dutch



## Syzygy

Hallo,

I found this site where it says that the Dutch pronounce the ending -tie as -tsie while in Flemish it's pronounced -sie and I was wondering if this difference extends to the pronunciation of words in -tionaal and -tioneel that I sometimes hear pronounced -tsj- and sometimes -sj-.
I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.

Bedankt!


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## Lopes

Hmm.. ik heb heel erg mijn twijfels over de 'correcte' uitspraak van rode en goede volgens die site. 

Voor wat betreft woorden die eindigen op -tionaal en -tioneel, ik zou zeggen dat ik een voorkeur heb voor de -tsj- uitspraak, maar dat ik de -sj- uitspraak niet raar vind klinken. Zelfde geldt voor het woord 'station'. Maar ik woon in België..


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## Joannes

Syzygy said:


> I found this site where it says that the Dutch pronounce the ending -tie as -tsie while in Flemish it's pronounced -sie and I was wondering if this difference extends to the pronunciation of words in -tionaal and -tioneel that I sometimes hear pronounced -tsj- and sometimes -sj-.


Yes, it does.
If you mean the pronunciation as the cluster of regular pronunciations of the Dutch letters (t)+s+j at least, because in Dutch we sometimes pronounce <tsj> as English _ch _and (_tsjonge_,_ Tsjechië_) <sj> as English _sh _(e.g. _sjaal_, _meisje_). That's not (supposed to be) the sound in _nationaal_ for example!



Syzygy said:


> I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.


I can only imagine the pronunciation of _terug _in two syllables (as _te-rug _instead of _trug_) for the sake of rhyme or rythm.

It is not wrong to pronounce _goede_, _rode_, and many more with a /d/, but in spoken language _goeie_, _rooie, _etc. are more common. Naargelang wordt de /d/ ook een /w/, bvb. _oude _- _ouwe_, etc.


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## Toxaris

The site is wrong about goede and rode. The way they say it has to be pronounced is not the correct way. The 'd' has to be pronounced. I admit that a lot of people don't, but that does not make it correct.
With the risk that it sounds a bit arrogant and pedantic, but more educated people do pronounce it with a 'd'.


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## Syzygy

Joannes said:


> Yes, it does.
> If you mean the pronunciation as the cluster of regular pronunciations of the Dutch letters (t)+s+j at least, because in Dutch we sometimes pronounce <tsj> as English _ch _and (_tsjonge_,_ Tsjechië_) <sj> as English _sh _(e.g. _sjaal_, _meisje_). That's not (supposed to be) the sound in _nationaal_ for example!


I hadn't noticed that there is more than one possible pronunciation of "tsj" and "sj". I only knew the ones you described (as English "ch" / "sh").



> I can only imagine the pronunciation of _terug _in two syllables (as _te-rug _instead of _trug_) for the sake of rhyme or rythm.


So the "te" part of "terug" isn't pronounced as in "terecht", but sticks to the "r" like in "Utrecht"? Hm, I did notice that something like this happens with "trusten".


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## Sjonger

I think it's not the same for 'goede' and 'rode'. For what I know 'goeie' is more common than 'rooie'. I'm quite educated and I would not say 'rooie', but I do say 'goeie' (also 'ouwe'.).


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## ThomasK

I think 'rooie', 'ouwe', etc. are not quite common in Flanders - or at least belong to a very informal register...


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## NewtonCircus

Syzygy said:


> I was also surprised to read the last two points that page made about the correct pronunciation of 'terug' and 'goede'/'rode'.


This site surprised me as well. It immediately reminded me about a movie called _Flodder _, a comedy about class differences within Dutch society. 

If you're not 100% sure how to use _rooie_, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.

_Een rooie rakker _= A term to belittle a person with socialist political believes.
_Een rooie_ = A negative term for a red-haired person.
_Een rooie kop_ = A rather crude expression for someone who's blushing.

_Goeie _at the other hand is colloquial for _goede_.

PS.  If you have not seen _Flodder_, consider it. Although the artistic qualities of this movie are debatable, there’s no doubt that one can learn a lot about how language is used across different social classes within Dutch society. 

Groetjes,

Herman


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## Syzygy

Thanks for all the comments  and thanks for the movie suggestion NewtonCircus. Talking about "rooie", I was reminded of Marco Borsato's song "Rood" where he actually uses both _rode_ and _rooie_ in one sentence:
"_... laat alles achter, kijk vooruit en met mijn laatste rooie cent koop ik een veel te grote bos met honderdvijftig rode rozen ..._"


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## ThomasK

That is quite interesting: 'mijn laatste rooie cent' is very pejorative, I'd say, where the other is descriptive.


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## Lopes

NewtonCircus said:


> If you're not 100% sure how to use _rooie_, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.



Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.



Syzygy said:


> Talking about "rooie", I was reminded of Marco Borsato's song "Rood" where he actually uses both _rode_ and _rooie_ in one sentence:
> "_... laat alles achter, kijk vooruit en met mijn laatste rooie cent koop ik een veel te grote bos met honderdvijftig rode rozen ..._"



Like this one _Geen rooie cent hebben_ means to not have any money at all, so this would be a variation of that expression


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## ThomasK

Lopes said:


> Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.




Maybe there is a different feeling in North and South, I would not be astonished... But the fact that there is this difference in the song points at something, I think.


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## quasimo

NewtonCircus said:


> This site surprised me as well. It immediately reminded me about a movie called _Flodder _, a comedy about class differences within Dutch society.
> 
> If you're not 100% sure how to use _rooie_, my opinion is to avoid it altogether since it is primarily used in a derogatory context.
> 
> _Een rooie rakker _= A term to belittle a person with socialist political believes.
> _Een rooie_ = A negative term for a red-haired person.
> _Een rooie kop_ = A rather crude expression for someone who's blushing.
> 
> _Goeie _at the other hand is colloquial for _goede_.
> 
> PS.  If you have not seen _Flodder_, consider it. Although the artistic qualities of this movie are debatable, there’s no doubt that one can learn a lot about how language is used across different social classes within Dutch society.
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Herman



Aan de andere kant was er in het gulden tijdperk ook de term ''een rooitje", zijnde 1000 gulden. Gek genoeg was de kleur van het bewuste bankbriefje ...groen.


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## Peterdg

Lopes said:


> Huh? It's just a pronunciation difference, I don't think it has any differences in meaning, except for some fixed expressions.


I agree with Herman on this one. In Flanders, "rooie" has a derogatory, even insulting, connotation; it is, or can be,  in the same register as "een vuile socialist".


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## HKK

Maybe when used as a substantive _ne rooie_. When used as an adjective... I pronounce it _rooie_ all the time:

_Welken auto is den uwe?
Daar, die rooie.
_
_Ik stond daar met een rooie kop... _(idiom to mean embarassed)

Etc.


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## ThomasK

To me  _rooie _is informal as for the pronuciation, sometimes derogatory...


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## matakoweg

For me, "rooie", "goeie", "ouwe" are the normal pronunciation in spoken language, "rode", "goede" and "oude" are written but not used in every day speech unless someone talks very formal.


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