# Próbuję nauczyć się tańczyć polkę



## gvergara

Hi,

I hope you are doing fine. I am wondering if the bare infinitives following some common verbs such as _to want, to try _or _must_ can be imperfective or perfective, depending on what you want to express. I heard the following sentence uttered by a native speaker:

_Próbuję__ *nauczyć *się *tańczyć *polkę_.

, which, by the way, has two bare infinitives, but for the time being I am only interested in the first one (_to learn_). Since you _próbujesz _to accomplish something, it does make sense to me to use the perfective verb, but I wondered whether or not this would always be the case. The exact search for "Próbuje nauczyć się" yielded over 20.000 results, but then I googled the imperfective version "Próbuje uczyć się", and got pretty much 5.000 results. As a beginner trying to delve into the intricacies of the Polish language, it also makes sense to say _Piątka złodziejaszków przemierza ulice miasta. Jeden z nich próbuje *uczyć* się francuskiego _(taken from this ".pl site") if what you want to say is that he is just, well, _trying_, making the attempt, doing the action of learning; not that he does not want to accomplish the action, but the focus of the message would be in the person (_just_) trying... Am I too feverish to come to these conclusions  ?

Thanks in advance,

G.


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## zaffy

Either is possible.

I would use the imperfective form for more general goals or perhaps for those that might help achieve a different aim. In this example vocabulary and grammar are not my chief aim; they will perhaps help me learn some language, which is my real goal.
_Codziennie próbuje się uczyć słownictwa i gramatyki._

I would use the prefective form to say what my final aim is. So here my aim is to master the irregular verbs. 
_A: Co robisz?
B: Próbuję się nauczyć czasowników nieregularnych._


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## gvergara

Thanks, zaffy, so could a native speaker say say something like this?

_Codziennie próbuję się *uczyć *czasowników nieregularnych w języku polskim, ponieważ chcę się *nauczyć *wszystkich czasowników nieregularnych._


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## zaffy

gvergara said:


> Codziennie próbuję się *uczyć *czasowników nieregularnych w języku polskim, ponieważ chcę się *nauczyć *wszystkich czasowników nieregularnych.



Yes. It sounds fine to my ears. I guess it would sound better with some deadline. 

_Codziennie próbuję się *uczyć *czasowników nieregularnych w języku polskim, ponieważ chcę się ich wszystkich *nauczyć *przed wakacjami. _


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## gvergara

zaffy said:


> I guess it would sound better with some deadline.


Sure, I agree, but I did not know how to express a deadline, and I try not to use translators.



zaffy said:


> przed wakacjami.


Ah, I guess this means _before (my) holidays_.


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## gvergara

zaffy said:


> ponieważ chcę się ich wszystkich *nauczyć *przed wakacjami.


Question: Is _czasowników nieregularnych_ not missing in your (second) sentence (..., _ponieważ chcę się nauczyć ich wszystkich *czasowników nieregularnych* przed wakacjami_)?


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## zaffy

gvergara said:


> Question: Is _czasowników nieregularnych_ not missing in your (second) sentence (..., _ponieważ chcę się nauczyć ich wszystkich *czasowników nieregularnych* przed wakacjami_)?


No. They object was replaced with a pronoun - *ich*

_Chcę się *ich *wszystkich nauczyć przed wakacjami. = I want to learn *them* all before my holidays. _


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## gvergara

Thanks for the answer (yet again  ).


zaffy said:


> They object was replaced with a pronoun - *ich *_= I want to learn *them *all before my holidays._


Now I can see that, but my beginner-level brain associated _ich _to the possessive, so I thought you wanted to say _I want to learn *all of its* irregular verbs_... How would your answer change if you wanted to express my last idea (_all of its_)?


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## Drakonica

You have a few specifically Polish phenomena / problems here.

1. erfective / imperfective
Both imperfective and perfective verbs can appear in this context.

- Próbuję się uczyć. - I'm trying to learn.
I'm trying to perform a learning activity.
Don't bother me, I'm trying to do something 

- Próbuję się nauczyć polskiego. - I'm trying to learn Polish.
My goal is to know Polish. The learning activity is irrelevant in itself.

2. Free word order.
Basically, the Polish sentence order is SVO. However, in fact in Polish, you can use almost any order of words in a sentence.

Próbuję się tu uczyć.
Uczyć się tu próbuję.
Tu się próbuję uczyć.    (here, not elswhere)
Ja się tu próbuję uczyć. (I, not anyone else)
Się tu próbuję uczyć.
Się próbuję tu uczyć.

We do this to emphasize the first word. Or just for stylistic reasons, e.g. to get the right rhyme.

Some word ordes are more common in certain contexts. E.g.:

*Uczę się*.
Próbuję *się uczyć*.
Próbuję *uczyć się* polskiego.


3. pseudo reflexive verb
Polish "się" may mean: myself, yourself, himself e.t.c.

Myję się.  - I wash myself.
Ja się myję.

Myjesz się.
Ty się myjesz.

Myje się.
On się myje.

But Polish "się" may mean (almost) nothing at all.

Some verbs demand "się". It's a part of a verb in fact. Mostly when there is no object in the sentence . E.g.:

Uśmiecham się. - I'm smyling.
Cieszę się.        - I'm glad.
Boję się             - I'm scared.

Sometimes presence or absence of "się" changes the meaning of the verb:

liczyć / liczyć się          - to count / to be important | to be respected
znaleźć / znaleźć się    - to find / to be | to appear (somewher, sometime)
urodzić / urodzić się    - to born / to be born
oglądać / oglądać się  - to watch / to look back | to look over a shoulder | to be interested in sometfing / sombody

But sometimes both meanings of "się" are possible:

Nie *oglądaj się* teraz.    - Don't look back now.
Nie *oglądaj się* w lustrze - Don't look at yourself in a mirror.


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## Drakonica

gvergara said:


> Now I can see that, but my beginner-level brain associated _ich _to the possessive, so I thought you wanted to say _I want to learn *all of its* irregular verbs_... How would your answer change if you wanted to express my last idea (_all of its_)?


Chcę się nauczyć *ich wszystkich*. - I want to learn them all. (all verbs)
Chcę się nauczyć *wszystkich ich* czasowników.   - I want to learn all their verbs.


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## gvergara

Thank you all for your priceless help... Now on to the second infinitive: Would these "infinitive combinations" sound fine, depending on the context?

Próbuję *nauczyć *się *zatańczyć *polkę.
Próbuję *uczyć *się *tańczyć *polkę.
Thanks again,

G.


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## elroy

Before the natives come along, let me take a stab at it.

I think here you need the imperfective, because you’re simply specifying what it is that you want to learn.  There is no idea of a completed action with the dancing, it’s just dancing in general.  Compare:

_Tańczyć polkę jest to, które chcę się nauczyć._

(I don’t think “zatańczyć” would work in that sentence either.)


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## Drakonica

gvergara said:


> Thank you all for your priceless help... Now on to the second infinitive: Would these "infinitive combinations" sound fine, depending on the context?
> 
> Próbuję *nauczyć *się *zatańczyć *polkę.
> Próbuję *uczyć *się *tańczyć *polkę.
> Thanks again,
> 
> G.



1 Próbuję *nauczyć *się ...
I've been doing it for several days, but I'm still not a dancer.

2 Próbuję *uczyć *się ...
I've tried to stard learning, but the floor is uneven and I have one leg shorter and I stumble every time.

In both sentences, I would use "tańczyć polkę".

1
Próbuję nauczyć się jeździć na rowerze.
I am trying to learn to ride a bike.

Próbuję nauczyć się tańczyć.
I am trying to learn to dance.

2
Próbuję nauczyć się (jak) przejechać tę trasę.
I am trying to learn (how) to cross this route.

Próbuję nauczyć się zatańczyć cały ten układ choreograficzny.
I am trying to learn to dance the whole this choreographic system.


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## jasio

gvergara said:


> Now on to the second infinitive: Would these "infinitive combinations" sound fine, depending on the context?
> 
> Próbuję *nauczyć *się *zatańczyć *polkę.
> Próbuję *uczyć *się *tańczyć *polkę.


This reminds me an interview of late Zbigniew Wodecki, a famous Polish singer, who also played piano and trumpet. Recalling from memory: 


> - To na jakich instrumentach potrafi Pan zagrać?
> - Zagrać panie redaktorze, to ja potrafię na wszystkim. Natomiast gram na trąbce i na fortepianie.


This is a nuance based on an inherent lack of an internal temporal structure and a one-time-only nature of the perfective verbs. What Wodecki meant is that he could take virtually any musical instrument and play basic things, yet on the two he was able to play professionally. 

Inherently, the first of your phrases suggests preparation for a one time event, like a prom ball, during which you are expected to play a certain traditional dance (polonez, chodzony), which you probably won't have an opportunity to dance ever again. In practice it does not have to be THAT literal, but this is more or less the underlying meaning.  

Please note that in this kind of phrases all four combinations of perfective / imperfective verbs are possible, and each of them conveys a slightly different meaning. I saw that some of them have already been covered though.


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## grassy

elroy said:


> Compare:
> 
> _Tańczyć polkę jest to, które chcę się nauczyć.   _


_Tańczyć polkę/Tańczenie polki/Taniec polki/Polka jest tym, co chcę się nauczyć. _


elroy said:


> (I don’t think “zatańczyć” would work in that sentence either.)


"Zatańczyć" implies a one-time action. Compare:
_
Zatańczyć polkę i umrzeć. Czy można sobie wyobrazić piękniejszy koniec?
Gdybym tylko mógł, tańczyłbym polkę aż do końca świata, a może i dłużej._


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## gvergara

jasio said:


> Please note that in this kind of phrases all four combinations of perfective / imperfective verbs are possible, and each of them conveys a slightly different meaning.


Excatly what I wanted to know, thanks so much.



jasio said:


> memory:
> This is a nuance based on an inherent lack of an internal temporal structure and a one-time-only nature of the perfective verbs. What Wodecki meant is that he could take virtually any musical instrument and play basic things, yet on the two he was able to play professionally.


Great example and better explanation 



grassy said:


> "Zatańczyć" implies a one-time action. Compare:
> 
> _Zatańczyć polkę i umrzeć. Czy można sobie wyobrazić piękniejszy koniec?_


Could it also imply that, instead of regarding _dancing _as a one-time action, _zatańczyć _conveys the idea of dancing polka (continually, for a long time) until I am done dancing (and ready to die, what a beautiful thing!).


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## jasio

gvergara said:


> Could it also imply that, instead of regarding _dancing _as a one-time action, _zatańczyć _conveys the idea of dancing polka (continually, for a long time) until I am done dancing (and ready to die, what a beautiful thing!).


Polish perfective verbs do not provide any clue about the duration. They place the focus on completion, one time action, and on the end result. If you want to focus on the duration, ie. the action itself, impetfective verbs should be used instead.

BTW - it may be tempting to relate perfective/imperfective verb opposition to the preterite+perfecto/imperfecto and Futuro anteriore/futuro imperfecto in Spanish. It's not the case, actually. Although there are similarities both in terms of semantics and usage, it's not quite the same. I was mislead by this similarity myself, albeit with Italian. It's not the moment to discuss the differences in details, but there are numerous situations in which you would use an impetfective verb in Polish and one of the perfect tenses in the romance languages. The other way round probably as well.


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## Drakonica

gvergara said:


> Could it also imply that, instead of regarding _dancing _as a one-time action, _zatańczyć _conveys the idea of dancing polka (continually, for a long time) until I am done dancing (and ready to die, what a beautiful thing!).


I'm not sure, if I understand you correctly. But you can say:

"Będę tanczyć polkę aż do śmierci".

What can mean:
- I will dance polka till the last day of my life.
- I will be dancing polka, till I'll die of dehydration / thermal shock etc.

-----------------------

"Przeczytam książkę".
- I will read a book (a whole book).

"Przeczytam książkę między cztartą a piątą".
- I will read a book between four and five o'clock. (a whole book).

"Przeczytam wszystkie książki z biblioteki".
- I will read all books in the  library. (whole boks)
--------

"Będę czytać książkę".
- I will be reading a book (I will spend some time reading).

"Będę czytać książkę". od czwartej do piątej".
- I will be reading a book from four to five o'clock.

"Będę często czytać książki".
- I will read books often.

"Będę czytać wszystkie książki z biblioteki".
- I will read all books in the  library.
- I will be reading all books in the  library.
 (I'm not sure, if I'll finish al of them)
-----------------------

But if the action hasn't a clear start and end it may mean almost the same:

"Zatańczę jutro".
- I will dance tommorow.

"Będę jutro tańczyć".
- I will be dancing tommorow.


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## gvergara

Drakonica said:


> I'm not sure, if I understand you correctly. But you can say:


I think you did, thanks for the superb explanantion!


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## jasio

Drakonica said:


> "Przeczytam książkę".
> - I will read a book (a whole book).


I would even say something like "I will complete reading the book". Probably, noone would naturally use this kind of statement in English, but at least it conveys the perfective aspect, which we discuss here. The same applies to the following statements as well. 



Drakonica said:


> "Przeczytam książkę między cztartą a piątą".
> - I will read a book between four and five o'clock. (a whole book).


There's a catch here. 

Normally the perfective aspects informs only about completion of an activity - especially in the future tense, when in some cases one can assume that the activity already is (or is not) already ongoing. However, when I hear the phrase like the above, with the specified period of time, I would understand that the narrator will begin reading a book on or after four, and will have completed reading by five. A short book, that is. ;-)

Compare it with: 


> "Skończę czytać książkę między czwartą a piątą"


In this case, the I understand that the narrator has already started reading the book, so the reading is in progress (or will have started before four), and they are expected to complete reading between four and five. 

But it's not math and may depend on the context... If my mechanic says:


> Zrobię pana samochód między czwartą a piątą


I do not really care, when he begins reparing my car, it's his problem. I know that some time between four and five it will be ready for me. 



Drakonica said:


> "Będę czytać książkę".
> - I will be reading a book (I will spend some time reading).


An English progressive aspect is not quite the same as the imperfective, but I'm afraid we won't find anything better in English.


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