# conditional/subjunctive with должен



## hermes8825

Hi everyone!
I know in order to form the conditional/subjunctive mood in Russian we need to use the past tense + бы. But I've been thinking about должен, which is not a verb in and of itself, and hence needs был after it to give rise to a conditional/subjunctive. So it's  должен был бы. OK, but what if the infinitive depending upon this entire structure is быть? Will you say "Я должен был бы быть"? Is that how you normally speak?

For example:
"I should be more careful" --> "Я должен был бы быть более внимательным"

I'm also asking, because I've found quite a few results in Yandex with simply "Я должен бы", without был. 
http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text="Я+должен+бы"&lr=10445

Would anyone please shed some light for me on this issue?

Thanks ina advance


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## grinski

_На его месте должен был быть я._ The particle _бы _is dropped.
_Я должен был бы быть более внимательным._ is too excessive and _бы _is not necessary.
_Я должен был бы знать = Я должен был знать. = Я должен бы знать. _I should have known. The first sentence seems to me rather colloquial and not widely used.

The particle _бы _derives from the ancient word _быхъ_ (_быть, to be) _which is obviously grammatical rule still in process of formation.


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## Ptak

hermes8825 said:


> "I should be more careful" --> "Я должен был бы быть более внимательным"


Я должен *был* быть более внимательным = Dovevo essere più attento.
Я должен *бы* быть более внимательным = Dovrei essere più attento (_adesso e sempre in seguito_).
Я должен *был бы* быть более внимательным = Dovrei essere più attento (_nel passato_) - Non so come si dice correttamente in italiano, forse "_avrei dovuto_"?..


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## hermes8825

Right, so it looks like I completely misunderstood the rule for the formation of the subjunctive/conditional mood in Russian. I thought it was not possible to tell a past conditional from a present conditional in Russian if not from context. Thanks to both of you.

All of this, though, generates a couple of questions in me:

1) Does this also work for other predicatives such as, for example, нужен? Do you say "что-то мне нужно бы" = "I would need something" and "что-то мне нужно было бы" = "I would have needed something"?

2) How can you tell a past conditional from a present conditional with ordinary verbs? For example with сказать, can you say "я сказал бы" = "I would say" and "я сказал был бы" = "I would have said"?

Ptak: "avrei dovuto" - правильная форма - молодец!  "sarei dovuto essere" тоже работает.


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## little green bird

I suppose that with modal predicatives, such as "должен", "нужно" you don't need to use "бы". A modal verb itself forms kind of subjunctive, because if you use a modal verb, the thing you are talking about is/was not happening in reality. That is why you don't need "бы" in such sentences as: "Я должен быть внимательнее", "Мне нужно быть внимательнее". You may add "бы" ("Я должен *бы* быть внимательнее"), but this variant is a bit outdated I'd say. If you need a past tense, you just add the verb "быть" in the past, as usual: "Я должен *был* быть внимательнее", "Мне нужно* было *быть внимательнее"


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## grinski

> 2) How can you tell a past conditional from a present conditional with ordinary verbs? For example with сказать, can you say "я сказал бы" = "I would say" and "я сказал был бы" = "I would have said"?



_я сказал был бы _isn't correct.

_Я сказал бы правду, но ты не слушаешь. _or _Я сказал бы правду сейчас._ It is Present tense. 

_Я сказал бы правду, но ты не слушала._ or _Я сказал бы правду вчера. _It is Past tense or Past Perfect tense.

As you can see both tenses need additional information to take away the possible confusion.


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## grinski

> 1) Does this also work for other predicatives such as, for example, нужен? Do you say "что-то мне нужно бы" = "I would need something" and "что-то мне нужно было бы" = "I would have needed something"?


_Нужно бы поесть. _is fine colloquial speech. [I, we] should eat.
_Нужно было поесть._ [I, we, you..] should have eaten.
_Нужно было бы поесть. _is wrong.

The problem with нужно and должен happens because they are not the same as English must and should. The stronger obligatory version of нужно is до́лжно. До́лжно is obsolete and used in the literature of the 19 century. Должно́ is a modern word, though.


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## LilianaB

I agree with Grinski. These verbs are not the same as in English, and Russian is not that organized as English: not all rules apply to most verbs. Much more is based on convention* as far as usage is concerned. The function of the subjunctive is much more limited than in Romance languages. It is easier to view those problems starting with the Russian grammar. 
Я должен был *бы* быть более внимательным. You just have one unnecessary element in your sentence. Otherwise it is fine. 


*What I meant there is that you will not be using subjunctive constructions based on some rules of subjunctive formation in many contexts in Russian, but conventional phrases which are used to express the same as the subjunctive would have. They may not even be subjunctive constructions, from a grammatical point of view.


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## Sobakus

grinski said:


> _Нужно было бы поесть. _is wrong.



How so?
Мне нужно бы поесть, пока ещё есть время перед выходом.
Мне нужно было бы поесть, пока ещё было время перед выходом.
The бы here is not that necessary, but it changes the modality to a less definite one: _Perhaps_ I should've eaten <.>.


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## grinski

_Мне нужно было бы поесть, пока ещё было время перед выходом._ sounds excessive for me, you better check with a grammar book.

_Мне можно было бы и поесть, пока ещё было время перед выходом._ is better to my ear.


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## 過客

The particle "бы" doesn't attach to verbs. Rather, it attaches to clauses, and its position in a clause is more or less free. The particle means that the situation somehow is not "real" (and thus, for example, this particle may be used in such kind of conditional sentences, where the condition is not said to be real). This particle can't be used when the clause contains a verb in the present or the future tense (for example, "я бы *буду* должен быть внимательней" is absolutely wrong). Otherwise, it is fine. (For example, it fits with modal predicates, or in expressions like "хорошо бы пошёл дождь" ("I wish it will be raining", the verb is in the past tense), "задождило бы сейчас" (the same, this form is not very common, yet it's fine), "мне бы выпить воды" ("I'd like to take a sip of water", the verb is omitted, it could be "хотелось" or something in the line)).

The only kind of a clause I can think of, where the position of "бы" is not free at all, is a "subjunctive construction" that should be used after verbs like "я хочу", "я желаю" or "мне нужно", and that may be used (but rarely is) after negative forms of verbs like "я не думаю", "я не рассчитываю", "я не надеялся", and that may not be used otherwise (as far as I can remember). In such construction, you should attach the "бы" to the conjunction "что", writing them together, as a solid word: "я не думаю, чтобы вы были здоровы" ("I don't think you're healthy", "non credo che sia sano").


little green bird said:


> You may add "бы" ("Я должен *бы* быть внимательнее"), but this variant is a bit outdated I'd say.


To my mind, there's nothing of this sort; it's not outdated. Rather, it's not euphonic because of a repetition ("бы быть"). In the form "я бы должен быть внимательней" it may be better, still not very beautiful though. The phrase expresses that the speaker is not sure he talks about reality; maybe because he's not sure he can be attentive, maybe because he doesn't want to be taken as the pillar of absolute truth.


grinski said:


> _Мне нужно было бы поесть, пока ещё было время перед выходом._ sounds excessive for me


In many contexts probably it would be excessive for me too (considering its meaning; not for hearing, but for speaking — when I hear it, it's OK for me absolutely); this is not a reason to say the phrase is wrong. It can be said, it sounds fine, it means fine; it's not excessive by itself. Just it doesn't mean what you expected it to mean; it's the meaning that you find excessive, not the phrase.


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## Ihori

For my mind the repeated _было _makes the text heavy.

_Мне нужно было бы _and _Мне можно было бы _is not the same. It is _must _in the first case and _may _in the second one.

I would rather say: _Мне следовало бы поесть, поскольку до выхода еще оставалось время_.


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## Ptak

grinski said:


> _Нужно было бы поесть. _is wrong.


It is not wrong at all. For me it sounds fine. I'm sure that most people wouldn't even notice that there's something excessive or non-excessive about this sentence if having heard it in speech.


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## grinski

I have found some examples of нужно было бы in news reports, popular science article and forums...


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## pimlicodude

little green bird said:


> I suppose that with modal predicatives, such as "должен", "нужно" you don't need to use "бы". A modal verb itself forms kind of subjunctive, because if you use a modal verb, the thing you are talking about is/was not happening in reality. That is why you don't need "бы" in such sentences as: "Я должен быть внимательнее", "Мне нужно быть внимательнее". You may add "бы" ("Я должен *бы* быть внимательнее"), but this variant is a bit outdated I'd say. If you need a past tense, you just add the verb "быть" in the past, as usual: "Я должен *был* быть внимательнее", "Мне нужно* было *быть внимательнее"


Do people on this forum agree with little green bird that должен бы is grammatical, if outdated? Other participants in this thread imply it is completely wrong. Solzhenitsyn quotes Bikerman saying:          


> Еврей говорит: либо большевики, либо погромы, тогда как он должен бы говорить: чем дольше сидят большевики, тем ближе мы к гибели


Is this right?


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## Maroseika

pimlicodude said:


> Еврей говорит: либо большевики, либо погромы, тогда как он должен бы говорить: чем дольше сидят большевики, тем ближе мы к гибели
> Is this right?


Должен бы in such phrase is quite correct and widely used.
Бы outlines that it's not what's ought to be (должен говорить, но не говорит).


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## Vovan

pimlicodude said:


> Do people on this forum agree with little green bird that должен бы is grammatical, if outdated? Other participants in this thread imply it is completely wrong.


"Должен бы" is considered perfectly grammatical by academicians. Much more natural these days, however, are _impersonal _constructions like that ("надо бы", "можно бы", "следовало бы", etc.):
_Надо бы вначале поесть._​_Ему надо бы извиниться._​_Можно бы и покороче!  _​


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## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> Do people on this forum agree with little green bird that должен бы is grammatical, if outdated? Other participants in this thread imply it is completely wrong. Solzhenitsyn quotes Bikerman saying:
> 
> 
> 
> Еврей говорит: либо большевики, либо погромы, тогда как он должен бы говорить: чем дольше сидят большевики, тем ближе мы к гибели
> 
> 
> 
> Is this right?
Click to expand...

This sentence is acceptable, and it is not something outdated. It is just a separate meaning with a specific modality - in this context, it is like "while it is better for him" - and  in some other context could be "while being supposed/expected"; this "бы" only changes the degree and character of obligation, so to speak, from "must/should" to "expected/benefit". The tense is present only, with a stative sense. This construction is close to  "eму надо бы" (roughly "it looks like it's necessary for him")  - even though this one is impersonal, it is also generally a present-time only predicative - because "ему надо было" is another thing, it rather means "he should have (done smth)/he had a need in (smth)" - a past version of "ему надо" - "he should/needs". You could say "надо было бы" - but, by that you create a fusion of these modalities - that is, a bit of mess or diffuseness; same is true for "должен бы был".

The sense in these is like that where the speaker knows that the related action is not the subject's current intention so he/she rather plays a role of a distant observer making a judgment.

Он сидит и курит - а должен бы уже начать работу/работать/всё закончить. (The speaker  condemns the worker, but it sounds like he/she has no power to make them work)

Мы сидим и курим - а надо бы нам уже начать работу/работать. (here, the workers themselves are like asking each other: "isn't it time for us to start...").


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## pimlicodude

Maroseika said:


> Должен бы in such phrase is quite correct and widely used.
> Бы outlines that it's not what's ought to be (должен говорить, но не говорит).


 Thank you. I'm sorry about that. I must have got confused - or maybe I misunderstood Little Green Bird's comment. I see this is the third должен бы in Two Hundred Years Together, and I apparently understood on the first two occasions!


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