# nasal vowel in Polish dialects



## lauralaurica

Czesc!
I have to write an essay about evolution of the old Ѧ [ɛ̃] and Ѫ [ɔ̃] in the different slavic languages.
I'm working now with polish dialects, and i heard that in some parts of Poland the nasalization is already lost, so i would like to know which are the diferences in the pronuntation of the next words in the different dialects of polish:

pięć
ciężki 
mięso
siemię
język
imię

wąski
mąż
ząb
ręka

Dziekuje bardzo!!


----------



## faraday

Hola!
Well I just tried to think how I pronounce it. It's hard. "Imię" and "siemię" are definitely not nasalized in central Poland, where I am from. But the rest... I'd rather pronounce it in nasalized way, but many speakers would not, especially those with less education.


----------



## Roy776

I'm from germany, and not polish, only learning it, so I have no knowledge of it myself, but my polish friends tend to pronounce *Ą* not like the french "en", but more like "om" (like the ending in the case of "kobietom").
For example *wiedzą* would be *wiedzom*. Also in words themselves, like in your example mąż, they'd pronounce it more like a completely regular O. That is my observation.


----------



## comodo

Roy776 said:


> I'm from germany, and not polish, only learning it, so I have no knowledge of it myself, but my polish friends tend to pronounce *Ą* not like the french "en", but more like "om" (like the ending in the case of "kobietom").
> For example *wiedzą* would be *wiedzom*. Also in words themselves, like in your example mąż, they'd pronounce it more like a completely regular O. That is my observation.



If you say "wiedzom" instead of "wiedzą", "władzom" instead of "władzą", etc., then you're using plural instead of singular, adding to the mistake. 
As a foreigner you can say "om" instead of "ą", if it's easier for you. We'll understand. But if you are serious about learning the language, try to make an effort to speak correctly. 
On the other hand, it's quite common to pronounce the final "ę" (się, mogę, nogę, imię, etc.) with only slight nasalization, almost like "e". In a middle position (ręka, męka, pędzi) only careless and uneducated speakers would not properly pronounce the sound "ę".


----------



## BezierCurve

Gosh. I've been surrounded by careless and uneducated speakers for most of my life so.

Back to the original question, I guess it depends more on the circumstances than the dialect or the level of education. "Biorę sobie ciebie za żonę" sounds almost always nasalised, while "Zabierz stąd tę rękę" hardly ever.


----------



## Ben Jamin

lauralaurica said:


> Czesc!
> I have to write an essay about evolution of the old Ѧ [ɛ̃] and Ѫ [ɔ̃] in the different slavic languages.
> I'm working now with polish dialects, and i heard that in some parts of Poland the nasalization is already lost, so i would like to know which are the diferences in the pronuntation of the next words in the different dialects of polish:
> 
> pięć
> ciężki
> mięso
> siemię
> język
> imię
> 
> wąski
> mąż
> ząb
> ręka
> 
> Dziekuje bardzo!!


 
pięć: pieńć/pieŋć
ciężki: cienszki/cieŋszki 
mięso: mięso/mieuso (the latter in dialects and sociolects)
siemię: siemie
język: jenzyk/jeŋzyk
imię: imie

wąski: wąski/woŋski
mąż: mąsz/moŋsz
ząb: zomp
ręka:renka/reŋka

Before occlusive consonants (b, p, k,g, t, d, cz, dż, ć, dź) the pronunciation ą/ę is asynchronic in Polish, that is first a/e, and then n or ŋ. The nasals occur only before s, z, sz, ż, ś, ź, but not everybody speaks so.
Before ł and at the end of word the pronunciaton is o/e in colloquial standard speech (om/em in dialects).
Before n as ŋ.
Educated people tend to pronounce nasals in careful speech more often than others, but nasals before ł sound highly artificial.


----------



## Ben Jamin

comodo said:


> In a middle position (ręka, męka, pędzi) only careless and uneducated speakers would not properly pronounce the sound "ę".


 This is positively wrong.


----------



## Roy776

comodo said:


> If you say "wiedzom" instead of "wiedzą", "władzom" instead of "władzą", etc., then you're using plural instead of singular, adding to the mistake.
> As a foreigner you can say "om" instead of "ą", if it's easier for you. We'll understand. But if you are serious about learning the language, try to make an effort to speak correctly.
> On the other hand, it's quite common to pronounce the final "ę" (się, mogę, nogę, imię, etc.) with only slight nasalization, almost like "e". In a middle position (ręka, męka, pędzi) only careless and uneducated speakers would not properly pronounce the sound "ę".



Hey, I never said, I pronounce it that way. I've got the ą alright, and I even try to teach my polish friends to do so. Yet, they don't get it as they're used to pronouncing it "om". To me, it sounds quite strange hearing them say *mówiom* instead of *mówią*, too.

And, what I forget the last time. About the ę, that one I also have never really heard with nasalization. I pronounce *ręka* as *renka*, and so do my friends, yet at a word's end, they also say *mówie* instead of anything nasalized (*mówię*).


----------



## ><FISH'>

I think that the nasalization is certainly not as prominent as some insist it is. I have never heard the proper "ę" sound used in normal speech except when someone is saying how it SHOULD sound. To me it just sounds like they add an "ń" after it to make the sound, giving it an "eń" sound with minimal nasalization.


----------



## kknd

no proszę − wywołałem z tymi jusami wilka z lasu!? ;p


----------



## SkyScout

Ben Jamin said:


> mięso: mięso/mieuso (the latter in dialects and sociolects)


I and most Polish-speakers I know say this word akin to *"mieŋso"* - and others *"mieuŋso"* (with the "ŋ" not as stressed).
Please note that this "sound" is NOT merely an _*"-en-"*_ sound, as one writer above from the UK suggested (_I will address his comment in my next post_)

There is a reasonably excellent online text-to-speech program:

http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/tts_example.php?sitepal

ENTER the Language of course as *"Polish"* and the Text as: *"mięso"*
Please listen to the pronunciation of the nasalised Polish word forms using the three different speakers under the "Voice" option.
Then replace the word with *"mieso"* - and you will hear the express difference of the nasalised vs non-nasalised sounds.


----------



## SkyScout

><FISH'> said:


> I think that the nasalization is certainly not as prominent as some insist it is. I have never heard the proper "ę" sound used in normal speech except when someone is saying how it SHOULD sound. To me it just sounds like they add an "ń" after it to make the sound, giving it an "eń" sound with minimal nasalization.


Alas, the truth is that some sounds cannot truly be either "heard" and/or "pronounced" by certain non-native speakers ... relating to any language.
I personally have encountered this challenge with the Modern Greek language and a sound I am told is "something" akin to its English representation by the letter *"y"*.
Perhaps that is why this letter is referred to by some as *"i-grec"* - i.e. the letter *"i"* but pronounced _*"à la grec"*_.

I have found the same holds true for non-Polish native speakers with respect to our nasal sounds.  Yes, yes, yes .... some such sounds are simply not pronounced by modern speakers in certain regions.  But where I am from (Southern/ Southern-Eastern Poland), we do - and in the fashion that "Ben Jamin" noted above (except for* "mięso"*  - I agree with him on all other comments).

Thus Frank, it would be my wild-arsed guess that as a native UK speaker, you cannot truly "hear" the nasals in certain Polish word - simply because you never learned to hear them, or, you may have been influenced by French - or even the overlays of the Celtic tongues and accents around you.

I still cannot say (according to my native Greek speaking friends) the word *"agape"* correctly - the Greek *"-g-"* sound simply is beyond my......inherent ability.

(I also have a helluva time trying to "click" correctly in the "Click Languages" of Africa ....
SAN CLICK LANGUAGE
or
MIRIAM MAKEBA - "CLICK SONG"

Nasals are simple compared to these sounds!


----------



## kknd

i must admit that i pronounce „mięso” with „ę” sound; in fast speech, indeed, i can hear using „ę” followed by some kind of nasal „n” (definitely it isn't „ŋ” and it isn't preceeded by „u”−one must use it's nasalised version to get anywhere near in pronounciation). this nasal „n” is interesting though in my pronounciaction−it has slightly retracted position (rather post-alveolar than alveolar) in comparison with normal „n” and what's more important: there is small gap between place of articulation and tongue giving softer sound.


----------

