# Weinstube (Chicago World's Fair, 1893)



## Grimm

Is there a more fitting term than "wine bar" to describe the traditional, rustic, pub-like establishments you find, for example, in Southern Germany or the Alsatian region? They are not attached to cafes or restaurants (though they might serve some simple homemade dishes), do not have sommeliers and usually just aren't in any way as fancy as the term "wine bar" suggests, but cater for ordinary patrons in regions where grapes are grown. In German, they are often called "Weinstube" which conveys their unpretentious character.


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## Andygc

British English? "Pub".


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## kentix

Not in the U.S. that I know of. But I don't live in wine country.


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## bh7

Perhaps "tavern" selling locally grown wines.


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## Myridon

In American English, "bar" is not fancier than "tavern."


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## Grimm

Thanks, Andygc. But a pub would also serve beer, wouldn't it? 
Thanks, bh7 - "tavern" sounds closer to "Weinstube." Thanks, Myridon - would an American bar serve food, though?


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## kentix

A tavern is a bar in the US and beer will be prominently featured.

In fact, a tavern is much more likely to have no wine than no beer.


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## The Newt

You will occasionally hear _rathskeller_ in the US.


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## ewie

Another vote for _tavern_.


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## Grimm

Thanks, Kentix - for me, "tavern" sounds more appropriate because it's rather old-fashioned. 
Context: At the Chicago World's Fair of 1893, the German village featured beergardens and "Weinstuben" (both of which were apparently hugely popular with visitors).
Thanks, The Newt - will I not run into the "but they also serve beer"-problem again with rathskeller?


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## JulianStuart

Are you looking for an English name for the establishments in southern Germany or whether such establishments exist in the English-speaking world and if so, what they are called?


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## Grimm

JulianStuart, I'm looking for an English name for the replica Southern German "Weinstuben" at the Columbian Expo at Chicago. The definition for "wine bar" given on WR doesn't quite fit "Weinstube".


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## sdgraham

kentix said:


> Not in the U.S. that I know of. But I don't live in wine country.


I do live in wine country, but I don't know of any other terms either. Moreover, "wine bars" don't seem to be very popular here in Oregon, compared with "pubs."


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## JulianStuart

Then that seems to be an occasion where importing the foreign word for the foreign location would make sense.  Use Weinstube.  You clearly want to make sure no-one confuses it with what wine-bar _might_ conjure up in an English speaker's mind, so use something that won't 
Collins has


> A Weinstube is a place where mainly wine is served with meals. It may be a normal restaurant or pub with an extensive wine list, but i*t may also - in wine-growing areas - specialize in wine-tasting, allowing the various wines of a region to be sampled.*


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## JulianStuart

sdgraham said:


> I do live in wine country, but I don't know of any other terms either. Moreover, "wine bars" don't seem to be very popular here in Oregon, compared with "pubs."


Napa and Sonoma valleys both have quite a few wine bars but recently craft beer has exploded and there are many taprooms and various "pub"-like establishments. "Unpretentious" wine places are somewhat rare, however


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## Myridon

Grimm said:


> will I not run into the "but they also serve beer"-problem again with rathskeller?


In addition to expecting beer and German food, I would expect it to be underground.


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## Grimm

Thanks, JulianStuart - the Collins definition sounds a bit strange as in Weinstuben meals tend to be optional, the focus being on the wine. As for the wine-tasting, that's definitely not what the Weinstuben at the World's Fair were about - located on Midway Plaisance, they were the places people went to to party... 
How about "wine-serving taverns"? I think using "Weinstube," I'd have to come up with some sort of explanation for non-German-speaking readers.


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## sdgraham

Grimm said:


> How about "wine-serving taverns"


I've never encountered a tavern in the U.S. that didn't serve wine, although there might be some.


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## Grimm

sdgraham:  "wine-only taverns"?


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## JulianStuart

Grimm said:


> Thanks, JulianStuart - the Collins definition sounds a bit strange as in Weinstuben meals tend to be optional, the focus being on the wine. As for the wine-tasting, that's definitely not what the Weinstuben at the World's Fair were about - located on Midway Plaisance, they were the places people went to to party...
> How about "wine-serving taverns"? I think using "Weinstube," I'd have to come up with some sort of explanation for non-German-speaking readers.


_No matter what_ word(s) you choose, you will still need to describe the characteristics of the specific establishment because it's not common in the English speaking world. The part I bolded in the definition sounds close - it appears that Weinstube may have two meanings even in German?  Even Langenscheidt gives the simple "wine bar" although others also use "wine tavern".


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## Grimm

The definition you bolded refers to those at vintners‘ where you can taste their wines and then buy those you like, sort of like a showroom - I wasn’t  even aware of them being called Weinstuben. The other ones are closest to UK pubs, apart from the fact that they didn’t/don’t serve beer. 
According to the etymology bit on WR, wine bar entered the English language much later than 1893, though I suspect in areas with a large German-American population they may have had them (just like beerhalls). Ah well, I‘ll think of something - thanks again.


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## JulianStuart

Grimm said:


> The definition you bolded refers to those at vintners‘ where you can taste their wines and then buy those you like, sort of like a showroom


Yes, there is a "wine bar" inside most wineries' tasting rooms here (and some have tables and chairs), where they serve and sell their own wines, but not their competitors'  i.e. not "the wines of the region". That's another kind of wine bar.  

I think "wine tavern" is your best bet because it is close and immediately prompts the question "What's that?" where you can explain as you did in the OP


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## Szkot

Another vote for (wine) tavern - it sounds more suitably rustic than a bar


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## kentix

Grimm said:


> though I suspect in areas with a large German-American population they may have had them (just like beerhalls).


The German immigrants that came here aren't particularly known for immigrating to areas where wine is/was produced. They are more famously known as occupants of agricultural areas like the Midwest, where grains are produced, not grapes.


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## Edinburgher

Myridon said:


> I would expect it to be underground.


Indeed.  Cellars usually are.
One might also expect it to be frequented by rats, not necessarily of the rodent variety.

A "Ratskeller" (modern spelling omits the 'h') is the cellar of a town hall ("Rathaus") and the councillors are "Rat"s.


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## kentix

We're into tradition here. The spelling has been carried forward from the original immigrant times. It's often used in a proper name, which is less likely to change. 





For some reason, it's fairly common for colleges and universities (at least in some areas) to have an on-campus establishment that uses that name.

- The Rathskeller, College of New Jersey hosts concerts for a wide range of genres.

- The Rathskeller is a student-run restaurant dedicated to developing students, providing quality food, unique events, and an accepting on-campus space (University of Miami)

- The Rathskellar is a great study or meeting place for students. (Oxford College)

- The homey Rathskeller, more commonly known as “the Rat,” is a restaurant on the lower level of Wilder Hall adjacent to DeCafé and Market (Oberlin College)


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## AutumnOwl

Grimm said:


> How about "wine-serving taverns"? I think using "Weinstube," I'd have to come up with some sort of explanation for non-German-speaking readers.


Several online dictionaries gave the translation as wine tavern, as well as wine bar.


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## elroy

Grimm said:


> I think using "Weinstube," I'd have to come up with some sort of explanation for non-German-speaking readers.


That’s exactly what I would do.


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## manfy

I think I'd go with an extended form of Julian's suggestion: "...the German village featured beergardens and "Weinstuben" (*traditional German wine taverns*)..."

By adding 'traditional German' to wine taverns, every reader should be able to figure out that it is not something like a fancy American wine bar.


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## elroy

manfy said:


> "Weinstuben"


I would use italics rather than quotation marks.  That’s the standard for foreign words.

(I think “beer gardens” is two words in English.)


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## Grimm

Good morning everyone and thank you for your contributions!
I've finally come across a term used in a contemporary American publication: "Re-entering the corridor [...], your eye will be caught by the "Wine Restaurant," (Altdeutsche Weinstuben) where you may eat well and drink well and enact what Rembrandt delighted to paint [...]." (Anon. _The German Village_. New York and Chicago, c1893. p.26) Now one might criticise that Rembrandt was Dutch, but it's a clever way to conjure up an image in the readers' minds.


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## Frank78

Grimm said:


> Good morning everyone and thank you for your contributions!
> I've finally come across a term used in a contemporary American publication: "Re-entering the corridor [...], your eye will be caught by the "Wine Restaurant," (Altdeutsche Weinstuben) where you may eat well and drink well and enact what Rembrandt delighted to paint [...]." (Anon. _The German Village_. New York and Chicago, c1893. p.26) Now one might criticise that Rembrandt was Dutch, but it's a clever way to conjure up an image in the readers' minds.



You won't find a 100% fitting term. The character of a Weinstube is closer to a pub, i.e. wine + snacks/small dishes (originally Weinstuben didn't even offer food) than to a restaurant. Also the design of a Weinstube is more rustic compared to restaurants.


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## Grimm

I fully agree with your characterisation, Frank78. I was, however, looking for a term used in 1893 (or around that time), when at least one "Weinstube" was installed in the German Village at the Chicago World's Fair. It was part of the anthropological display of German culture but also, located on Midway Plaisance, sort of "the fun part" among more educationally oriented exhibits and like the beer gardens in the village, attracted large crowds of visitors. 
Most guidebooks to the fair gloss over these less salubrious exhibits (or maybe they simply didn't know a term for "Weinstube" either...☺️), so I'm glad to have found a contemporary term used to refer to one of them.


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## elroy

Wine Restaurant?  That doesn’t conjure up anything for me.  It just sounds weird.


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## manfy

Grimm said:


> [...], your eye will be caught by the *"Wine Restaurant,"* (Altdeutsche Weinstuben) where [...]





Grimm said:


> [...] I was, however, *looking for a term used in 1893* (or around that time), when at least one "Weinstube" was installed in the German Village at [...]


You did notice that the writer placed wine restaurant in quotes, right? That's usually a clear sign that this term was _not _common and _not _commonly understood - as shows elroy's response in #34. 
Since your text will be read by modern speakers/readers, you should actually think about how modern speakers will interpret it, particularly so because _wine restaurant_ is not immediately recognizable as a 19th century term.
When I first read wine restaurant, I wasn't quite sure how to interpret it; you don't see it too often as a description of a restaurant.


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## Kajjo

I like "wine tavern", it sound rustic enough and fits. Of course you could add "traditional" or "rustic" if you want to make sure to convey the right image.

However, nowadays almost all "Weinstuben" serve all kinds of beverages, including beer, schnaps, and softdrinks. I have never seen a "Weinstube" that ONLY serves wine.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> Of course you could add "traditional" or "rustic" if you want to make sure to convey the right image.


No need, “tavern” already has those connotations.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> No need, “tavern” already has those connotations.


That's what I thought. This is why I like "tavern" so much. 


Kajjo said:


> it sound rustic enough and fits


That's what I meant?


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## elroy

Yup, I was supporting your answer.

To be clear, I wouldn’t _just_ use “wine tavern.” I would keep the German word and use “wine tavern” in my explanation.


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## Grimm

I would not the term "wine restaurant" in isolation, but give the quote from the 1893 publication. Thing is, if I used "wine tavern," I would, going by most comments here, still have to explain it further - so I might as well let the contemporary author do the explaining, with his reference to eating and drinking well and enacting Rembrandt's drinking scenes.


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## elroy

I don't understand your rationale.  You seem to be romanticizing this one version just because someone else used it.  Most readers will have no idea what "enact what Rembrandt delighted to paint" is supposed to mean.

_*Weinstuben*_* (traditional German wine taverns)*

This is a great choice for a number of reasons:

1. You're using the actual German term, so you're not risking distorting the meaning and you're giving the reader the opportunity to research it further if they want to know more.

2. The explanation in parentheses is clear and sounds good.  It's a solid description of what a "Weinstube" is in general.

3. The explanation is concise.  In translation, explanations should ideally be brief and to-the-point.

The translation you want to use also meets #1, but it fails on #2 and #3, so the translation we are suggesting clearly wins.


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## Grimm

Elroy, I'm not looking for "a solid description of what a 'Weinstube' is _in general_" as I'm not translating anything as such, otherwise I'd agree with you. 
When writing about a _specific historical thing_ (object/event/...), it makes much more sense for a historian to use, whenever possible, primary sources to show a contemporaneous take on things. In this case, I think the 1893 quote offers a description that's still comprehensible to today's readers, gives all the info necessary and is actually quite vivid (with the intended readership, Rembrandt would certainly ring a bell).


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## elroy

Well, all you had told us about the context was this:


Grimm said:


> Context: At the Chicago World's Fair of 1893, the German village featured beergardens and "Weinstuben" (both of which were apparently hugely popular with visitors).





Grimm said:


> I'm looking for an English name for the replica Southern German "Weinstuben" at the Columbian Expo at Chicago.



You're now revealing some important information you had withheld: 
- This is not a translation.
- You are writing as a historian.
- You prefer primary sources.
- Your target readership will understand the Rembrandt reference.

This is all important contextual information you should have shared from the outset.  But it's still not enough:

- What kind of piece are you writing?
- What is it about?
- Who is your target readership?
- What is the sentence you intend to use?  What comes before and after it?
- What exactly do you want to convey about "Weinstuben"?

All of these things matter for the final choice.


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## Grimm

I'm sorry you feel misled, Elroy, but I do prefer to ask open questions in order to receive a wider range of answers, especially those I would never have thought of myself. 
The necessary details regarding the term I was looking for were, I believe, in my opening post, which I then went on to specify with my remark on context you quoted. Had I not found the primary source, I'd have had to go with something like: "The German village at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893 attracted large number of visitors with its beergardens and its Southern German-style wine tavern(s), projecting an altogether romantic image of Germany."
I'm not quite sure in what way the things you listed would "matter for the final choice"?


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## Frank78

Grimm said:


> I'm not quite sure in what way the things you listed would "matter for the final choice"?



The target audience is most important for the final choice, i.e. how much previous knowledge can you expect.
Is the text to be read by wine connoisseurs/wine makers/sommeliers/etc. or does it aim at the general public?


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## elroy

Grimm said:


> I do prefer to ask open questions in order to receive a wider range of answers


That's not how this forum works.  We answer questions about language use in specific contexts, and we ask for as many details as possible.

From our rules:

_Be clear and provide context._​​_Be descriptive, specific, and succinct in your posts, to avoid misunderstandings._​​_Provide complete sentences and background information every time you ask a question. This allows us to understand your question and to help you better._​
(Rule 3)

Please provide the requested information.

Thank you,
elroy - moderator


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## manfy

Just as a remark for future readers of this thread who may be looking for a descriptive and effective translation of _Weinstube_, I'm clearly siding elroy on this matter. But in this specific case, since you're the translator or writer, it is, of course, up to you to decide what form to pick.

There's just one language peculiarity I wanted to point out:


Grimm said:


> [...], your eye will be caught by *the "Wine Restaurant*," (Altdeutsche Wein*stuben*) where [...]





Grimm said:


> [...] and its Southern German-style wine tavern*(s)*, [...]


It seems, you're unsure about singular and plural.
Your chosen version uses singular in English but seemingly plural in German, an uncertainty which is also reflected in your 'tavern*(s)' *in the other post.

In standard German 'die Stube' is singular and 'die Stuben' is plural. However, in Bavarian dialect (and possibly other southern dialects), 'die Stubn' is singular _and_ plural! Since your 1893 text was written well before the first official orthography reform and the formal standardization of German spelling, it may very well be that the noun phrase  'die Weinstuben' really did express the singular form (= Weinstube in standard German).


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## Grimm

Manfy, "Altdeutsche Weinstuben" is the name of the one located at the castle. It seems to have been in Southern German-style, so most likely using Bavarian dialect singular in its name. My use of "tavern(s)" refers to the fact that I so far haven't been able to figure out if there was another one in the German village or if the other one was in "Old Vienna" - the American guidebooks tend to mix up Germany and Austria or treat them as one and the same. 
I very much suspect that the text from which I've quoted was written by a German-American and their spelling and grammar can be very unusual in that certain older German grammatical forms and words stick around for much longer, while at the same time throwing in English words like "grocer" or "plumber" (which makes sense when you think about their German readers being from different parts of Germany, using different words).

Frank78, the intended readership are cultural historians and art historians, most likely those doing comparative studies.

Elroy, so let me try and answer your questions:
- What kind of piece are you writing? - an article
- What is it about? - a German artist being and his artwork on display becoming part of the German Empire's image campaign at the 1893 World's Fair
- Who is your target readership? - cultural historians and art historians, most likely those specialising in comparative studies or reception theory
- What is the sentence you intend to use?  What comes before and after it? 
- [In order to further trade and tourism and to gain political standing, the German Empire was keen on winning over (German-)Americans....] 
These flocked in large numbers to the German village, where a stereotypically romantic image of Germany was presented: While the castle contained an educational display of medieval armor, most of the village was focused on offering an immersive experience of a very specific version of German culture to the visitors, allowing them to enjoy music played by the military bands while sitting in the beer gardens or spending time at the castle's "'Wine Restaurant,' (Altdeutsche Weinstuben) where you may eat well and drink well and enact what Rembrandt delighted to paint," as one guidebook stated. This immersive experience was enhanced by the traditional costumes of the employees and the architecture of the surrounding buildings. 
Something like that.
- What exactly do you want to convey about "Weinstuben"? - that they were part of a curated image of Germany, very attractive to (German-)American visitors, offering an opportunity to participate in "German culture" for a day


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## elroy

Thank you for that useful information!

I suggest you go for a "best of both worlds" approach and combine both solutions:


Grimm said:


> These flocked in large numbers to the German *V*illage, where *which presented *a stereotypically romantic *romanticized* image of Germany was presented: *w*hile the castle *there* contained *did offer* an educational display of medieval armor, most of the *V*illage was focused on offering *designed to offer* *visitors* an immersive experience of a very specific version of German culture. to the visitors, allowing them to *They could *enjoy music played by the military bands while sitting in the *a* beer gardens or spending time at the castle's _*Weinstube*_* (traditional German wine tavern), described by one guidebook as the* "'Wine Restaurant,' (Altdeutsche Weinstuben) where you may eat well and drink well and enact what Rembrandt delighted to paint." as one guidebook stated. *Contributing to* this immersive experience was enhanced by *were* the *staff's *traditional costumes of the employees and the *surrounding* architecture of the surrounding buildings.


(I've made some other suggestions.  If you have any questions about them, please ask them in separate threads.)


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## Grimm

Thanks for your suggestions, Elroy. I am, however, still in the process of writing and rewriting so I’m sorry to say the bit of text I posted may read quite differently in the final version anyway, depending on what further info I find and which questions I might have to leave open.


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## elroy

No problem!


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## Kajjo

I don't like the term "wine restaurant" at all. Yes, Weinstuben usually offer small dishes, but the essence is "wine tavern". The term "restaurant" leads the reader astray.


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## elroy

Yes, I think that was a poor translation on the part of whoever wrote that guidebook.


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## Alemanita

Hallo Grimm,

eine kleine Auswahl an Weinstuben der Gegenwart:

Bürgerspital Weinstuben Würzburg, edles Lokal für saisonale Delikatessen.

Weinstuben Juliusspital, Würzburg, fränkische Küche und traditionelles Flair.

Weinstube Rückel
Die älteste Weinstube im Herzen der Altstadt Bambergs  bietet erlesene fränkische Weine und  Bier-Spezialitäten. Lassen Sie sich mit regionalen Leckerbissen verwöhnen.

Gruß.-


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## Hutschi

A good reference for older meanings is the German dictionary by the Grimm brothers.

Wörterbuchnetz
It gives:
Zitierempfehlung für diesen Artikel
„WEINSTUBE, f.“, Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm, digitalisierte Fassung im Wörterbuchnetz des Trier Center for Digital Humanities, Version 01/21, <Wörterbuchnetz>, abgerufen am 22.12.2022.




WEINSTUBE, f.  bis  WEINTRÄUBLEIN, n.Bd. 28, Sp. 1000​




> 2
> WEINSTUBE, f., 'weinschenke', 'weinzimmer in einem wirtshaus': und siehe, ich sahe ... ein bastetenhausz, ein weinstube, ein ballhausz Moscherosch gesichte (1650) 1 421; (die vorübergehenden) kuckten durch die fenster in die weinstube hinein E. T. A. Hoffmann s. w. 12, 89 Griseb.; in der lebhaftesten aller gassen stiesz er auf das aushängeschild einer weinstube Holtei erz. schr. 25, 94; an der rechten wand führt eine thür mit der aufschrift 'weinstube' ins honoratiorenstübchen G. Hauptmann d. weber (1892) 47; auch mundartlich: 'wienstuuf, f., weinstube, in die sich bei festlichkeiten die liebesleute zum weintrinken zurückzogen' Mensing schlesw.-holst. 5, 634;


Note: old spelling from 19th century and older (in quotations)

see elroy, #49

So I see basically three meanings:
A wine restaurant, a room for wine in a general restaurant, a room for wine in a house.
There are some more.

My part is describing. Tavern is most times better than restaurant, but it depends on the size. Most often it is not big.


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## Hutschi

Today it means:

DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache
Wörterbuch der deutschen Gegenwartssprache (WDG)​
Kleines Weinlokal


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