# حتى + verb



## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

- I wonder if حتى *always* means "until" when it is followed by a verb in the past tense (فعل ماض) ?

- When حتى is followed by a verb in the present tense, can it mean "until" ?

I ask this because I read this :



> It  means  "until"  when  it  is  followed  by a  verb  in  the  past  tense.
> 
> When it is followed by a verb in the present tense it will express purpose and, therefore, means "in order to/so that." In that case, the verb should be in the subjunctive mood.



Source : Iraq Academic Scientific Journals (direct link : *Fulltext*)

Merci.


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## elroy

If حتى is followed by a present-tense verb, the verb is *always* in the subjunctive mood, regardless of the meaning.


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## Ibn Nacer

Merci Elroy. I removed a sentence of my post because I realized that it was wrong.

Yes because it seems to me that حتى may mean "until" even when it is followed by a verb in the subjunctive mood. Je crois que c'est même souvent le cas...



elroy said:


> If حتى is followed by a present-tense verb, the verb is *always* in the subjunctive mood, regardless of the meaning.


Not always, I read that it could be in the indicative mood.


*EDIT* : Voici un passage tiré du livre :  A Grammar of the Arabic Language V2 - Wright





Cela rejoint ce passage en arabe :



> (حتى)
> 
> 1 ـ تعرب حرف غاية وجر إذا دخلت على اسم مجرور أو مضارع منصوب لأنها تكون جارة لمصدر أن المضمرة نحو أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها ونحو. اجتهد حتى تنجح.
> 
> 2 ـ تعرب حرف عطف نحو : أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها بالنصب.
> 
> 3 ـ تعرب حرف غاية فقط إذا كان بعدها فعل ماض أو مضارع مرفوع نحو : مرض زيد حتى لا يرجو له، انتظرته حتى حضر.
> 
> 4 ـ تعرب ابتدائية إذا كان بعدها مبتدأ نحو : أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها والخبر محذوف تقديره مأكول.
> 
> تنبيهان:
> 
> 1 ـ الفرق بين إلى وحتى أن حتى تختص بغاية الشيء نحو : أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها ولا تقل حتى نصفها بخلاف إلى فإنها عامة ويشترط فيما بعد حتى أن يكون آخراً مثل حتى رأسها أو ملاقي الآخر نحو : سهرت الليلة حتى مطلع الفجر.
> 
> 2 ـ يشترط في نصب المضارع بعد حتى أن يكون مستقبلاً بالنسبة إلى زمن التكلم و إلا رفع نحو : مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه


source : بستان الإعراب


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## Ibn Nacer

*حتى + فعل مضارع مرفوع*

Salut,

The verb after حتى is often in the subjunctive mode (فعل مضارع منصوب), but in some cases it seems that it may also be in the indicative mood (فعل مضارع مرفوع) (as we can see in the passages I have posted to the message #3 )

- In practice, how to distinguish the two cases? Do you have any trick|tips* ? (*Je veux dire : avez-vous des astuces?).
- And what is the meaning of the word when it is followed by a verb in the subjunctive mood?

PS: I know this is a difficult question but despite that maybe some of you have ideas ...

Merci.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,


يتضح مما سبق أنه إذا كان الفعل حالاً، أو مؤولاً به ، فحتى ابتدائية ويرتفع الفعل بعدها ، فإذا كانت الحالية بالنسبة إلى زمن التكلم فالرفع واجب، كقولك : سرتُ حتّى أدخلُها، إذا قلت ذلك وأنت في حالة الدخول كما يظهر من قول سيبويه :" فكأنه يقول: سرت فإذا أنا في حال دخول"(9) ، و نحو: سألت عنك حتى لا أحتاج إلى سؤال. 



Can you translate (or explain) the sentence in blue ?


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## Ghabi

Ibn Nacer said:


> I read that it could be in the indicative mood.


It's discussed by Sibawayhi (§238-40) and picked up by later grammarians, but I don't know if anyone uses it in modern Arabic. When I come across حتى يفعل I would read it automatically as حتى يفعلَ, and when I see حتى يفعلون I would assume it's a typo of حتى يفعلوا.

So to me a verb after حتى is either al-maaDi (when the action has occurred) or al-manSuub (used like كي to express a purpose, whether the action has occurred or not). But others may understand differently.


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## jack_1313

I have some related question about the use of حتى with a past tense verb in the following sentence:

فالحقيقة أن التشكيلات المسلحة هي من تقوم بالتعامل مع المهاجرين بغياب أي قانون ينظّم أوضاعهم، حتى صدر عن مجلس الوزراء القرار بشأن إنشاء جهاز مكافحة الهجرة غير الشرعية
_The reality is that the armed formations _[i.e. militias] _are the ones dealing with the migrants in the absence of any law governing their 
status, until the Council of Ministers issued the decision establishing the Anti-Illegal Immigration Department._

1. What does حتى mean in this sentence? I read it as "until" but a native speaker told me it should be "so" and that it primarily expresses a consequence.

2. What does the phrase  حتى صدر عن مجلس الوزراء القرار بشأن إنشاء جهاز مكافحة الهجرة غير الشرعية modify? In other words, assuming that حتى means "until" here, does it tell us that there was no law governing the migrants' status until this decision was issued? Or is it supposed to also tell us that the militias were dealing with the migrants until the law was issued (at which point the _Anti-Illegal Immigration Department _took over). If it's the second meaning, shouldn't من يقوم be من قام (past tense)?

Thanks for any help :S


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## Mahaodeh

1. It means until in this context. At least this is how I understand it.
2. I have to say that it's not very clear, either case is possible. I'm not sure why, but I think it's probably the second one. However, you are correct, if it is the second one, then it should have been in the past tense too.

I'm thinking it means that the militias were dealing with the migrants until the law was issued because it makes sense logically. You have a new law that created a new department that deals with immigrants, shouldn't they now be dealing with them? Of course, the first part of the sentence implies that the militia are still dealing with them, but I'm thinking that this is a typo or something of this sort.


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## AndyRoo

I would say it is fine to use من يقوم with a past [continuous] meaning, i.e. "the militias *were dealing* with the migrants".


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## maddu

In تمسّك بحردك حتى تدرك حقّك, could حتى be translated as "so that/in order that/to"?

The translation given in Lane's Lexicon is: _Retain_ (or _persist in_) _your anger until you obtain your right_.
Is _Retain your anger so that you obtain your right_ another possible meaning?


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## Abu Talha

In my limited experience and understanding: حتى تدركُ can only mean "until you obtain" while حتى تدركَ can mean either (but strictly it ought to be "so that you obtain").


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## lena55313

The beginning is here
Hi, do you remember Shushu? ))) I reread one of the sentences and I'm not sure about the mood of the verb. 
وَلا تَكَادُ تَجْلِسُ إلَيْهَا خَمْسَ دَقَائِقَ حَتَّى تُلِمَّ بِمَا فُطِرَتْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ جُرْأَةِ الْجَنَانِ
Now i think that it should be the Indicative, not the Subjunctive. 
I read in Wrights that the Subjunctive "is governed... by حَتَّى when it expresses the intention of the agent and the object of the act, or the result of the act, as taken place not without the will of the agent, or, at least, according to his expectation". 

"But if حَتَّى expesses only a simple temporal limit, or the mere effect or result of an act without any implied design or expectation on the part of the agent, it is followed by the perfect or the indicative of the imperfect"

Now i'm wonering if there is an intention in the sentence or not?


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## barkoosh

To make life easier, verbs in the present tense are always in the subjunctive after حتى in MSA.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,


barkoosh said:


> To make life easier, verbs in the present tense are always in the subjunctive after حتى in MSA.


What do you think of this example "مرض زيد حتى لا يرجو له" (or "مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه") cited in the message #3 or this other example "سألت عنك حتى لا أحتاج إلى سؤال" cited in the message #5?

As for this sentence "سألت عنك حتى لا أحتاج إلى سؤال" I asked for a translation or an explanation but I did not get an answer, it seems that this is a difficult subject...

I have the impression that the meaning of حتى  in this type of sentence is "*au point de*", I do not know how to translate it into English but I think that in MSA we would use إلى حد , لدرجة...

What do you think ?

Thank you.


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## Sun-Shine

The grammatical rule of حتى is a big problem itself.سيبويه/الفراء has said:سأموت و في نفسي شيء من حتى. 
حتى تنصب و ترفع و تجر
The meaning and some rules have been put to help us to know it.
Some says it depends on the speaker, for example (أكلت السمكة حتى رأسها) he can say رأسَها , رأسُها or رأسِها and depending on what he said we can determine the إعراب

Some of the rules:-
The verb after it is present and مرفوع:
1-When it refers to the present(الحال) not future الاستقبال as(مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونَه)
2-أن يكون ما بعد حتى فَضلة (the sentence before it is complete, and the sentence after it not in need as خبر or خبر لناسخ) ( we can't say عملي حتى تغربُ الشمس)
3-أنْ يكونَ ما بعدها مُسَبباً عَمَّا قبلها (the verb after it is a reason for the sentence before) we can't say ُيحرص البخيل على ماله حتى يموت (Money is not a reason for being stingy)

The verb is مضارع منصوب :
1-التعليل (when it means لكي)
2-الغاية as (يزداد الحر نهار الصيف حتى تغيبَ الشمس)
3-الاستثناء 

In some cases it can be منصوب or مرفوع according to the meaning.


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## barkoosh

Ibn Nacer said:


> مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه


In this non-MSA example, it's obvious that حتى لا يرجونه doesn't express future, not even in relation to the verb مرض. It looks like حال. In this case, يرجونه should remain مرفوعة. It probably means that 'Zeid became so ill that all hope was lost about the possibility of his recovery'.

However, this is not how we talk and write in MSA. No one is going to say: مرض أبي حتى ييأس الأطباء من شفائه. Rather, we would say, مرض أبي كثيرًا ويئس الأطباء من شفائه or من شدة ما مرض أبي، يئس الأطباء من شفائه. I believe that no حتى is going to be used.



Ibn Nacer said:


> سألت عنك حتى لا أحتاج إلى سؤال


No wonder you got no answer . What does that mean? Who talks this way? Even if you google it, you'll only find the same quote automatically repeated in different references, with the explanation that it's related to حال. Now, if this is the same as مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه, could حتى mean, as you said, لدرجة...? Is it something like, 'I inquired so much about you that there's no more need for me to ask'? If yes, that's not how we talk in MSA. And I don't think that حتى is going to be used in such sentences with a verb in the present tense.

So it seems to me that this very use of حتى is not common. What is left today is that حتى تنصب الفعل المضارع.


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## Qureshpor

My understanding is that normally one expects a subjunctive after حتى when the action mentioned has yet to take place.

E.g. انتظر حتی البسَ Wait till I get dressed (I have yet to start getting dressed or am in the process of getting dressed)

However, when the action is completed, then the verb after حتى is indicative.

 قد بحثوا ھذا حتی (انّھم) یعرفون حقیتتہ

They have investigated this until they have come to know its truth

(Apologies for not being able to type correctly)


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## Ghabi

Qureshpor said:


> However, when the action is completed, then the verb after حتى is indicative.


If the action is completed, then one uses الماضي.


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## Qureshpor

Ghabi said:


> If the action is completed, then one uses الماضي.


Do you feel the example I have quoted is incorrect Arabic?


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## elroy

Qureshpor said:


> قد بحثوا ھذا (انّھم) یعرفون حقیتتہ


 This is nonsense, sorry. 

قد بحثوا حتى عرفوا الحقيقة = They searched until they learned the truth.

قد بحثوا حتى يعرفوا الحقيقة = They searched in order to learn the truth.​


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## Qureshpor

The sentence I have quoted is from "An Approach to Written Arabic" by the late Professor A.F.L.Beeston (University of Oxford). The last word in the sentence I quoted is "Haqiiqatahu". (p 105)

"But if حتی expresses only a simple temporal limit, or the mere effect or result of an act, without any implied design or expectation on the part of the agent, it is followed by the perfect or the indicative of the imperfect." (Wright Vol 2, pp 29-30)


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## elroy

Would you be able to post a screenshot?


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## Qureshpor

elroy said:


> Would you be able to post a screenshot?


WRITTEN ARABIC: AN APPROACH TO THE BASIC STRUCTURES (p105)

https://ia902704.us.archive.org/34/items/grammarofarabicl02caspuoft/grammarofarabicl02caspuoft.pdf (pp 29-30)


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## Sun-Shine

sun_shine 331995 said:


> Some of the rules:-
> The verb after it is present and مرفوع:
> 1-When it refers to the present(الحال) not future الاستقبال as(مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونَه)
> 2-أن يكون ما بعد حتى فَضلة (the sentence before it is complete, and the sentence after it not in need as خبر or خبر لناسخ) ( we can't say عملي حتى تغربُ الشمس)
> 3-أنْ يكونَ ما بعدها مُسَبباً عَمَّا قبلها (the verb after it is a reason for the sentence before) we can't say ُيحرص البخيل على ماله حتى يموت (Money is not a reason for being stingy)
> 
> The verb is مضارع منصوب :
> 1-التعليل (when it means لكي)
> 2-الغاية as (يزداد الحر نهار الصيف حتى تغيبَ الشمس)
> 3-الاستثناء
> 
> *In some cases it can be منصوب or مرفوع according to the meaning.*



In this sentence it could be both (look at the rules I put above)

_قد بحثوا هذا حتى يعرفوا حقيقته_ : In this sentence حتى could mean إلى أن يعرفوا or كي يعرفوا and المعرفة is a future of searching, then it is (يعرفوا (منصوب بـ أن المضمرة

_قد بحثوا هذا حتى يعرفون حقيقته_ : Here, تحققت الشروط الثلاثة
(1-The sentence before حتى is complete. 2-The tense is present حال if you knew during searching. 3-The searching is the cause they knew what they wanted to know.) so the verb can be (مرفوع (يعرفون

That is what I think.


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## elroy

In #17, you omitted حتى, which makes all the difference in the world:

قد بحثوا هذا حتى (أنهم) يعرفون حقيقته means "They researched this matter *in such a way *that they (now) know its truth."  As the reference says, this means that the knowing of the truth did in fact happen.

The first of Wright's present-tense examples is similar:

مرض حتى لا يرجونه = "He has gotten sick *in such a way* that they have given up hope."  More idiomatically, "He has gotten *so* sick that they...".

This حتى doesn't mean "until," it means "in such a way."  You can substitute بحيث.

Wright's second non-past-tense example refers to the future:

يعبد الله حتى يأتيه الموت = "worships God until death befalls him"

This is an unfortunate example because in this case the indicative and subjunctive are identical.  Presumably Wright meant indicative, but personally I would use subjunctive here, because this one does mean "until."


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## Sun-Shine

elroy said:


> يعبد الله حتى يأتيه الموت
> Personally I would use subjunctive here, because this one does mean "until."


I agree with you.
"يعبد الله حتى يأتيَه الموت"
لم تتحقق الشروط الثلاثة كي يكون الفعل مرفوع


> أنْ يكونَ ما بعدها مُسَبباً عَمَّا قبلها


عبادة الله ليست سببًا للموت


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## Qureshpor

Some more examples of حتی followed by مضارع مرفوع.

الطفل ثقیل حتی لا تحملہ اُمّہ The infant is heavy; so much so that his mother can't carry him
 or The infant is so heavy that his mother can't carry him.

لستُ ضعیفاً حتی اترکُ الفرصۃ بلاعب جدید I am not so weak that I leave the opportunity to a new player.

ما ان یدخُلَ الاستاذُ الصّفَ حتی یکتبُ کلماتِ الحکمۃِ علی اللّوحِ  As soon as the professor enters the class, he writes words of wisdom on the board.


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## Ghabi

I would expect the use of بحيث or other structures for the first two examples. For the third, it should be ما إن یدخلُ ... حتی یکتبَ, which is a fixed structure.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,
Thank you very much to all...
Ok so that's really a difficult subject ...



barkoosh said:


> In this non-MSA example, it's obvious that حتى لا يرجونه doesn't express future, not even in relation to the verb مرض. It looks like حال. In this case, يرجونه should remain مرفوعة. It probably means that 'Zeid became so ill that all hope was lost about the possibility of his recovery'.


Thank you. Yes that's how I understood the sentence and I thought that meaning could be expressed in MSA with the connectors إلى حد , لدرجة... But maybe I'm wrong ? I see that Elroy has proposed the connector "بحيث" :



elroy said:


> مرض حتى لا يرجونه = "He has gotten sick *in such a way* that they have given up hope." More idiomatically, "He has gotten *so* sick that they...".
> 
> This حتى doesn't mean "until," it means "in such a way." You can substitute بحيث.


But to express "so ill/sick that...", can not we also use the connectors إلى حد , لدرجة ... ?



barkoosh said:


> Now, if this is the same as مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه, could حتى mean, as you said, لدرجة...? Is it something like, '*I inquired so much about you that there's no more need for me to ask'?* If yes, that's not how we talk in MSA. And I don't think that حتى is going to be used in such sentences with a verb in the present tense.


Yes thank you, that's how I understood the sentence (سألت عنك حتى لا أحتاج إلى سؤال ).

I notice the connector "*so much*" in English, it seems to correspond to the connectors "au point que", "tellement que", "si bien que"... In French and maybe  to the connectors إلى حد , لدرجة , بحيث... In MSA.

They all express *a consequence*, which is one of the conditions to respect for the verb to be in the indicative mode, *sun_shine* mentioned this condition (in : #15) : أنْ يكونَ ما بعدها مُسَبباً عَمَّا قبلها ...

In classical Arabic I have seen that some say that the meaning of حتى in this type of sentence is حتى إنَّ or فإذا ...

And I had tried to understand the meaning of "حتى إنَّ" and I noticed that it was often translated into French by the connectors already mentioned above "au point que" or "si bien que" ...

Besides, I saw this example: *مرض زيد حتى إنهم لا يرجونه  *which I think has the same meaning as the sentence we discussed: مرض زيد حتى لا يرجونه...



sun_shine 331995 said:


> _قد بحثوا هذا حتى يعرفون حقيقته_ : Here, تحققت الشروط الثلاثة
> (1-The sentence before حتى is complete. 2-The tense is present حال if you knew during searching. 3-The searching is the cause they knew what they wanted to know.) so the verb can be (مرفوع (يعرفون


Thank you. I noticed that the author (see : Some Miscellaneous Functional) translated حتى  by "*so that*". It seems that the connectors "*so that*" and "*in order to*" express the purpose and that they are considered synonymous ...

My level in English is almost zero but I feel that the connector "*so that*" can also express *a consequence*, I noticed that it is often used to translate the particle فاء السببية (see this thread...) which might seem strange if we consider that this connector only expresses the purpose as "in order to", no?
And here the particle _حتى _ does not express a purpose but a consequence which is one of the conditions to respect for the verb to be in the indicative mode (you mentioned this condition (in : #15) : أنْ يكونَ ما بعدها مُسَبباً عَمَّا قبلها ...).

Merci.


EDIT :


Qureshpor said:


> Some more examples of حتی followed by مضارع مرفوع.
> 
> الطفل ثقیل حتی لا تحملہ اُمّہ The infant is heavy; so much so that his mother can't carry him
> or The infant is so heavy that his mother can't carry him.
> 
> لستُ ضعیفاً حتی اترکُ الفرصۃ بلاعب جدید I am not so weak that I leave the opportunity to a new player.
> 
> ما ان یدخُلَ الاستاذُ الصّفَ حتی یکتبُ کلماتِ الحکمۃِ علی اللّوحِ  As soon as the professor enters the class, he writes words of wisdom on the board.


Thank you very much for these interesting examples, I still notice the connectors "so much", "so"...

Please, could you tell me where do these examples come from? 

Merci.


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## Ibn Nacer

Ibn Nacer said:


> I see that Elroy has proposed the connector "بحيث" :
> But to express "so ill/sick that...", can not we also use the connectors إلى حد , لدرجة ... ?


Il y a un fil intéressant à propos de ces connecteurs (... بحيث ,إلى حد , لدرجة)  : "so" as an adverb


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## Qureshpor

Ibn Nacer said:


> Please, could you tell me where do these examples come from?
> Merci.


Monsieur Ibn Nacer, I am afraid I can't remember where I got the examples from quoted in # 27. I found them in my notes but I can say this much that they have come from Arabic grammar text books.

مرِض حتی لا یرجونھُ (p109)

You have quoted a similar example. This and the example below are found in A grammar of Classical Arabic by Fischer.

یُغشون حتی لا تھرُّ کلابھم (p 224)

They are visited so often that dogs do not snarl. 

It might be of interest to look at examples provided by Wright Vol 2 p30. 

سرتُ الی الکوفۃ  حتی ادخلَھا

I journeyed  to Kufa that I might enter it.

He then goes on to give the following examples.

سرتُ حتی ادخلُھا I journeyed to it until I entered it. (hist. imperfect) حکایۃ حال ماضییہ

سرتُ حتی ادخلُھا I journeyed to it until I am (now) entering it.

سرتُ حتی دخلتُھا I journeyed till I actually entered it.


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## Ibn Nacer

@Qureshpor: Thank you very much.


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## Ali Smith

حتى has several meanings, but in my experience the most common are 'until' and 'so that'. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one was intended by the speaker. E.g. وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ كُلُّهُ لِلَّهِ فَإِنِ انْتَهَوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (الأنفال:39)

It's not clear to me whether it means 'And fight them until there is no dissension' or 'And fight them so that there is no dissension'.


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## Qureshpor

Ali Smith said:


> حتى has several meanings, but in my experience the most common are 'until' and 'so that'. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one was intended by the speaker. E.g. وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ كُلُّهُ لِلَّهِ فَإِنِ انْتَهَوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (الأنفال:39)
> 
> It's not clear to me whether it means 'And fight them until there is no dissension' or 'And fight them so that there is no dissension'.


If you are reading it with the meaning "so that" the meaning would be....

"And fight them so that there is no dissension (any more)"

So, I would say that either way, the meaning is the same.


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## USani

In the verse you quoted it definitely means "until" not "so that. Sahih International has

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.


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