# assassin



## frog1gsu

I am sure I saw in a dictionary one time the etymology for this word given as "dinner-guest". Is this possible? I can only find "eater of hashish" for it now. Thanks.


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## ancalimon

"Haşhaş yiyen" means "the one that eats hashish" in "Turkish".

I think that's folk etymology.


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## frog1gsu

Sure I think it was in a Chambers dictionary - will check it though. It struck me as very memorable.


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## frog1gsu

Strangely the dictionary gives "hashish eater" as stemming from Arabic.


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## Treaty

The name seems to be originated from the suicidal/_fedaee_ followers of an Isma'ili leader, Hasan Sabbah. We should know who had called the Isma'ili _fedaees _as "hashashin" for the first time. If they were called so by their enemies, then "the hashish eater" can be the answer. Their enemies had good reason to understate and insult their belief by accusing them being under the effect of hashish.


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## Wolverine9

Treaty is correct.  Assassin derives from the Arabic _ḥashshāshīn _"hashish eaters."  Some members of the Isma'ili sect developed a  reputation for killing opponents (especially Crusaders) while under the influence of hashish.


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## frog1gsu

Thanks a lot - I'm sure you're right. But I will check the Chambers when I see it - coz it's an old edition and I like its suggestion. May I ask why our first member ancalimon said it came from Turkish? Are Arabic and Turkish similar in some respects?? And Farsi?? Which language are we speaking of here - Arabic or Farsi? - and which language does _fedaee_ belong to please? Many thanks - this contemporary subject is not uninteresting!


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## ancalimon

frog1gsu said:


> Thanks a lot - I'm sure you're right. But I will check the Chambers when I see it - coz it's an old edition and I like its suggestion. May I ask why our first member ancalimon said it came from Turkish? Are Arabic and Turkish similar in some respects?? And Farsi?? Which language are we speaking of here - Arabic or Farsi? - and which language does _fedaee_ belong to please? Many thanks - this contemporary subject is not uninteresting!



I didn't say it came from Turkish. When you said it supposedly meant "hashish eater" my mind registered it as the Turkish "haşhaş yiyen" meaning "the one that eats hashish".

I don't know Arabic so I did not know that _"īn"_ meant "eater" in Arabic.


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## frog1gsu

Sure thanks - so its just a coincidence that Turkish resembles Arabic here??


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## ancalimon

frog1gsu said:


> Sure thanks - so its just a coincidence that Turkish resembles Arabic here??



Probably.

http://translate.google.com/#tr/ar/haşhaş yiyen
click the speaker icon on the left side (which is Turkish) to get an idea about how it's pronounced.

Turkish:

ye: eat
yi(y)en: the one that eats

When the suffix an ~ en comes after a verb xxx, it makes it mean "the one that xxx"


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## frog1gsu

Sure - it's becoming clearer now. Thanks!


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## Wolverine9

ancalimon said:


> I didn't say it came from Turkish. When you said it supposedly meant "hashish eater" my mind registered it as the Turkish "haşhaş yiyen" meaning "the one that eats hashish".
> 
> I don't know Arabic so I did not know that _"īn"_ meant "eater" in Arabic.



-_īn _is a plural suffix in Arabic.  _ḥashshāsh_ means "hashish eater" and _ḥashshāshīn _means "hashish eaters."


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## frog1gsu

Okay - so we have a situation where in Arabic there are a number of them (coming to get you) and the derogatory victims have not distinguished? Strange, cos these guys usually work alone.


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## Wolverine9

frog1gsu said:


> Thanks a lot - I'm sure you're right. But I will check the Chambers when I see it - coz it's an old edition and I like its suggestion. May I ask why our first member ancalimon said it came from Turkish? Are Arabic and Turkish similar in some respects?? And Farsi?? Which language are we speaking of here - Arabic or Farsi? - and which language does _fedaee_ belong to please? Many thanks - this contemporary subject is not uninteresting!



Arabic, Turkish, and Farsi (Persian) are distinct languages and belong to different language families; however, there are numerous Arabic loanwords in Turkish and especially in Farsi due to the Islamic religious and cultural influence on those societies.  The _fedaee _(Arabic: _fidā'ī_ "one who sacrifices himself") in this context refers to followers of the Isma'ili sect that risked their lives in carrying out "assassinations" against Crusaders and others.


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## frog1gsu

Thanks so much - you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject. Have we discovered a reason why noone in the west can understand "suicide bombing"? If in Arabic it means "one who sacrifices himself", then this is totally different. Does Arabic have another word for "suicide" e.g. when it does not involve doing it for a cause? If so, then we are distorting the meaning of their word for "suicide bombers" - if not, then this might mean they view all suicide as a self-sacrifice, and hence view the practise of suicide bombing differently - i.e. for them suicide in general is "self-sacrifice".
It might be interesting also to point out what a role "sacrifice" plays in the Jewish religion - where it is something which is venerated e.g. in the Torah. Lastly, sacrifice has a somewhat positive connotation in English, due to Christianity and the sacrifice of Jesus for humankind. Fascinating topic and any comments would be gladly received. Thanks.


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## Wolverine9

You should avoid making generalizing statements about how a particular people view suicide bombing.  Many will find such comments to be offensive.

Your remaining questions are off-topic for this thread and the posts will get deleted if discussion were to proceed here.  You should create separate threads for each of your questions about particular words or concepts either on this forum or on the Arabic forum.


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## frog1gsu

Thanks and sorry if I caused offence. I stayed clear of expressing my own opinion though - I think. I guess some of the linguistic questions might hold as well e.g. how do you say "suicide" in Arabic?

I realise it is a sensitive topic but the purpose of etymology is perhaps to sort out such as disputes - my aim would be to try to understand the various perspectives - but this is very difficult to do at the beginning of a discussion.

May I take this opportunity to ask what the difference is between "Junior member", "Member" and "Senior Member", and then again the difference between these and "moderators"? Thanks so much.


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## Treaty

I apologise for not being clear. The Isma'ili _fida'i_ is far different from suicide bomber. _Fida'i_s were well educated and trained people who threatened or killed their elite religious or political opponents. They were like modern spy-assassins who would kill their target if necessary. However, they knew it will be very difficult to escape the scene due to high security levels their targets. They rarely committed suicide to avoid torture. 

Anyway, both _hashish _and _hashshaash _come from Arabic root _h-sh-sh _(to mow, to remove weeds). They do not necessarily share the same meaning. I found in Wikipedia that this denomination originally meant "outcast" in a derogatory sense, unrelated to the drug. It would be nice if someone has access to the original book cited in Wikipedia as the reference for this statement.



frog1gsu said:


> Thanks and sorry if I caused offence. I stayed clear of expressing my own opinion though - I think. I guess some of the linguistic questions might hold as well e.g. how do you say "suicide" in Arabic?
> .



I'm not sure about "suicide" in Arabic as there can be different concepts of it. But the Arabic loanword in Persian for "suicide" (with a negative regard) is _intiHaar_ (انتحار) and _intiHaari(ah)_ is used for "suicidal". However, enthusiasts may use _istishhaad_ استشهاد (=martyrdom seeking) and _istishhaadi(ah)_ (adj.) instead.


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## frog1gsu

In response to your interesting dialogue, I have only one question: Do you know when these fida'i were around - I mean, at what period of history did they operate. I ask since they sound remarkably sophisticated, whereas in Britain we have only developed the Secret Service in the last hundred years or so. These characters sound like a precursor to James Bond, and so I would be interested to know if you can tell me when they date back to? Thanks.


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## clevermizo

Moderator's Note:

This discussion is about the etymology of the word 'assassin'. It is not about the discussion of suicide, suicide bombings, fida'iyin or other topics insofar as they do not pertain to the origin of the word 'assassin.' Please refrain from discussion of other topics as per the rules (#2).

Regards,

clevermizo
Moderator


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## Treaty

clevermizo said:


> This discussion is about the etymology of the word 'assassin'. It is not about the discussion of suicide, suicide bombings, fida'iyin ...


Thank you for this reminder. Although "suicide" is off-topic and a result of my fault for mentioning it, _fida'i_ is directly related to the topic as it was the autonym of the original assassins.

Anyway, here is my last notes about the assassins (_hashshash-in_):
- Assassin is name given to _fida'i_s by their enemies, probably by other Isma'ili sects. 
- The name _hashshash-in_ may predate their killing tactics. It is probably a derogatory notion of their reclusion from other Isma'ili sects.
- The association between _hashish_ and _hashshash-in_ seems to be a later myth aiming to further insult them; in order to understate their strong belief as if it was caused by drugs.
- As the word "assassinate" suggests the main job was to kill (or threaten to death). It is not related to secret service (though assassins might have involved into disguise to approach their victims). 
- Later or at the same time due to their great infamy, _fida'is_ became a scapegoat for all similar assassinations as if they were responsible for all high level murders. This may explain the generalisation of the word "assassin" to its current meaning.


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## frog1gsu

Thank you and I'll get back to you if I find the eytmology given anywhere as "dinner guest" (which it obvioiusly isn't), which seems to me even more amusing!..


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## Treaty

frog1gsu said:


> Thank you and I'll get back to you if I find the eytmology given anywhere as "dinner guest" (which it obvioiusly isn't), which seems to me even more amusing!..


Sorry, I was so carried away by the _hashish_ that I've forgotten what was the main question. The "dinner guest" etymology can be resulted from three other words that are related to night/dinner (as far as I know). However, all are unlikely to be related to "assassin".:

_3as3as_ عسعس = night to begin
_3esha'_ عشاء = dinner
_3asas_ عسس = night watch, guard.

"3" is a glottal Arabic letter. You can ignore it as it is not much perceptible for non-Arabs.


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## ancalimon

Wolverine9 said:


> -_īn _is a plural suffix in Arabic.  _ḥashshāsh_ means "hashish eater" and _ḥashshāshīn _means "hashish eaters."



Interesting. So _ḥashshāsh_ means both "hashish" and "hashish eater" in Arabic? What is "eater" in Arabic?


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## Wolverine9

ancalimon said:


> Interesting. So _ḥashshāsh_ means both "hashish" and "hashish eater" in Arabic? What is "eater" in Arabic?




No.  _ḥashīsh  _means "hashish"; _ḥashshāsh_ means "hashish eater"; and _ḥashshāshīn _means "hashish eaters" and is the source of "assassin."


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## frog1gsu

So it would appear that you get "eater" by adding a vowel in the middle of the word - that's clever!"


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## Treaty

frog1gsu said:


> So it would appear that you get "eater" by adding a vowel in the middle of the word - that's clever!"



Arabic (and other Semitic languages) morphology is mainly based on putting three-letter roots in semantically distinct formats. Consider a three-letter root _XYZ_. In format _XaYYāZ_, it means "intensive/professional doer/user of _XYZ_". While _XaYïZ _roughly means "demonstrating/representing _XYZ_".

_Hashish _comes from three-letter root _H.sh.sh_ (to cut off a weed, to dry weed). _Hashish _is an instance of dry weed. And _Hashsh__āsh _literally means someone who intensively uses the _hashish _(like a drug addict).


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## momai

hi 
In Arabic it has two meanings one of them is "grass" which i guess you are searching for,which perhaps the word Hashashin came from "people eat the grass".The second one is Hashashin also which is a name of a group in Islam "ISMAILII".


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