# In Serbo-Croatian, are č/dž/ć/đ/š/ž rounded?



## LoveVanPersie

In Serbo-Croatian, are č/dž/ć/đ/š/ž (ч/џ/ћ/ђ/ш/ж) rounded (when you pronounce them is your lip rounded or spread)?


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## Zec

This is actually one of the features (other than the position of the tongue) that distinguishes the "hard" č, dž, š, ž from the "soft" ć, đ - the first are pronounced with rounded lips, and the second with spread lips. That is the case at least in my own speech, probably also in all dialects which distinguish those sounds. For those dialects that do not distinguish them, I can't say for sure - it sounds to me as if they were pronounced with neutral to rounded lips, definitely not spread.


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## LoveVanPersie

Zec said:


> This is actually one of the features (other than the position of the tongue) that distinguishes the "hard" č, dž, š, ž from the "soft" ć, đ - the first are pronounced with rounded lips, and the second with spread lips. That is the case at least in my own speech, probably also in all dialects which distinguish those sounds. For those dialects that do not distinguish them, I can't say for sure - it sounds to me as if they were pronounced with neutral to rounded lips, definitely not spread.


Thanks for your answer
Do you also round your lip pronouncing š, ž (or is there any diffrerence in rounding degree between them and č, dž)? On this (P5), š, ž are not with [ʷ].


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## Zec

In my own speech, š and ž are rounded as well. Then again, I am not a speaker of standard Serbian and my speech differs from what is written in the table in several other phonetic details. As for the table, it represents only _distinctive_ phonetic features - there being no "soft" ś and ź in the standard language to contrast with š and ž, the lip rounding is not distinctive, which is probably why it isn't written regardless of whether it exists or not. From my experience of listening to Serbian, I'd say that it does exist.


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## alexl57

I wouldn't say that the č/ć really differ that much in lip roundedness. The position of the tongue in č is a bit more front than for ć, so that might influence having the slightly more rounded lips in the case of former.
What is certainly true is that it depends a lot on the surrounding vowels.

Video removed by a moderator as per forum rule 4.


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## Zec

That is certainly true on a phonemic level. The very paper that LoveVanPersie posted clearly states that lip rounding is a _secondary_ phonetic feature and best ignored in phonological inquiries. If you asked me what the difference between č and ć was, I too would first describe the difference in the position of the tongue. But the difference in rounding exists as well, and it is best to look at it when the consonants are surrounded by the vowel a, which is neutral in regards to rounding - in that position, č and dž (and š and ž, for me at least) have slightly rounded lips (much less so than for vowels u and o), while ć and đ do not.

Having a background in linguistics, I may offer (I hope) a proper explanation on why this lip rounding exists, and why I notice it more than Alex. The acoustic difference between č and dž on one side, and ć and đ on the other, which is produced by the different position of the tongue, is that the first have a darker, lower sound than the latter. Lip rounding also produces a darker sound, which further helps distinguish the pairs acoustically. As I said, I am not a speaker of standard Serbian. In my speech, and this is typical for Croatia, the difference in tongue position between č, dž and ć, đ is not as pronounced as in Serbia (using the terminology from the paper posted, č and dž are not as apical), and for that reason, lip rounding is more important to distinguish them. As LoveVanPersie's question is about Serbo-Croatian in general, it is good to be aware of such dialectal differences.


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## alexl57

You're absolutely right about the roundedness being most evident in "ača" vs "aća". Good point. 
(BTW I just tried saying "čar" and "ćar" with a grinning face. Lips unrounded, difference between the sounds still there.)


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## Zec

Same for me. That shows that lip rounding is quite unimportant and that the authors of the papers have made a bad choice in marking it for č, dž but not for š, ž - it just confuses people about the importance of the feature. I think language learners shouldn't bother with it.


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## LoveVanPersie

Good to know them.
I also wonder in Croatian if š/ž are still rounded before ć/đ (i.e. [ɕ, ʑ])?


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## Zec

In normal, fluent speech they are completely assimilated to ć, đ and therefore unrounded. When carefully enunciating a word with šć, žđ, there might be less assimilation, but that is essentially a spelling pronunciation.

I think it would be good to explain here in more detail what kind of "rounding" is in action here. It is different than the rounding found with vowels o, u and the consonant w. When pronouncing these sounds, lips are pressed together to form a circle. When pronouncing č, dž, š, ž, they are not pressed together at all, nor do they form a circle, but they are very slightly protruded compared to other consonants, including of course ć and đ. I would have chosen a different diacritic than the authors of the paper to represent that (probably the "more rounded" diacritic), not the w-like diacritic.


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## Милан

Everytime I hear Croatians pronouncing š and ž I can hear the difference, the same happens with Serbians from South Serbia. I feel like their š and ž are more similar to English sh and zh.


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## Zec

I hear that difference as well - in lay terms, I'd say that Serbian č, dž, š and ž are "harder". That's probably the difference in tongue position I mentioned earlier. Could you describe what is the position of your tongue when you pronounce č, dž, š and ž?

Also, do these speakers you mentioned pronouncing a "softer" š, ž (both from Serbia and Croatia) distinguish č, dž and ć, đ or not? In Croatia, people are used to hearing other people not distinguishing these sounds - it is accepted as normal that many people, when speaking the standard language, will not distinguish them. We generally tend not to talk too much about it (except when people make spelling mistakes).

I have an impression that in Serbia people are more perceptive about these sounds - of all the people I've heard discussing how these sounds are pronounced, most have been from Serbia. Is it considered weird not to distinguish them when speaking standard Serbian (e. g. when a speaker from the south is speaking on TV)?


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## Милан

Well, if you are from Serbia and mix those sounds (č and ć, dž and đ) people are going to mock you (a lot). The thing is that the people of South Serbia do distinguish them. Again, their č is not that hard, but it is still harder than the Croatian one. And their ć is somewhat softer than my ć.   And some even have (Southeastern Serbia) tj (instead of ć)  and č, so they pronounce them quite diffrerently.
As for č and dž the tip of my tongue is behind my upper teeth. When I pronounce č and dž the tip of my tongue doesn't touch my upper teeth.


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## Zec

In Croatia, people will most likely not even notice you are not distinguishing them . And if you've heard any people from Croatia, did they distinguish them or not?

Honestly, going by description only (Wikipedia's description completely matches my pronunciation, as does Milan's description), nobody would be able to tell that there is any difference in the way people from Croatia and Serbia pronounce their č and dž - one would need a proper phonetic investigation to be able to describe the differences native speakers hear between them. The differences are slight indeed (Wikipedia describes them as Serbian having retroflex or apical postalveolar sounds, while Croatian has "normal" postalveolar sounds, closer to English ones - though my č, dž, š, ž are all apical or retroflex!).

When people here do not distinguish č, dž and ć, đ, the resulting sound is closer to č and dž. So, what _I_ notice when I hear them is that their ć and đ are not soft enough, not that their č and dž are not hard enough, as people from Serbia tend to say. We obviously have different standards: the Serbian one is a clear distinction of č, dž and ć, đ, while the Croatian one is in practice, not to distinguish them and to regard a somewhat softer č and dž as "normal".


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## Daniel.N

Милан said:


> Again, their č is not that hard, but it is still harder than the Croatian one.



Likely there's no "Croatian one", as people from various parts of Croatia pronounce /č/ differently. Likely the pronunciation is "softer" more you go to the west.

And people from Split, Zagreb, Rijeka, Dubrovnik etc. have only one phoneme for the standard /č/ and /ć/ (which is in my speech more or less like English /č/).


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## LoveVanPersie

Daniel.N said:


> Likely there's no "Croatian one", as people from various parts of Croatia pronounce /č/ differently. Likely the pronunciation is "softer" more you go to the west.
> 
> And people from Split, Zagreb, Rijeka, Dubrovnik etc. have only one phoneme for the standard /č/ and /ć/ (which is in my speech more or less like English /č/).


Are š, ž, č, dž in your accent rounded?
And I think in your accent there aren't [ɕ] and [ʑ]?


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## LoveVanPersie

Do you pronounce word-final consonant and initial vowel or semivowel of next word togerther, as in English?


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## Daniel.N

LoveVanPersie said:


> Are š, ž, č, dž in your accent rounded?
> And I think in your accent there aren't [ɕ] and [ʑ]?



No, they aren't rounded. People from further east (e.g. Serbia) hear my /č/ as their /ć/. Everything sounds softer. Women from Zagreb sound really feminine to them. Unfortunately, men too 



LoveVanPersie said:


> Do you pronounce word-final consonant and initial vowel or semivowel of next word togerther, as in English?



Uhm, can you give me an example?


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## LoveVanPersie

For example, do you pronounce Bra-ni-sla-vI-va-no-vić or Bra-ni-slav-I-va-no-vić, Ti-nJe-dvaj or Tin-Je-dvaj?


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## Daniel.N

LoveVanPersie said:


> For example, do you pronounce Bra-ni-sla-vI-va-no-vić or Bra-ni-slav-I-va-no-vić, Ti-nJe-dvaj or Tin-Je-dvaj?



The first I likely pronounce in both ways, the second one only Tin Je dvaj


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## LoveVanPersie

As a second thought, I am watching a World Cup match Russia vs Croatia on HRT 2, and ć sounds rounded from the commentator? I think /t͡ɕ/ and /t͡ɕʰ/ in Mandarin are really unrounded and ć in Serbo-Croatian doesn't sound like them. Here are examples of Mandarin: /t͡ɕi/ with a falling tone, /t͡ɕʰi/ with a falling tone, /t͡ɕi/ with a rising tone, /t͡ɕʰi/ with a rising tone. Or, it's not a matter of roundness?


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## Zec

You need to keep in mind that a large part of Croatian population does not distinguish orthographic <č> and <ć>, pronouncing the latter like the former - that is certainly true for the commentator, whose accent is very nonstandard in other aspects as well. It is getting harder and harder to see standard Croatian spoken on TV, since, frankly, it is hard to do for people who have a different accent, and people are becoming more and more accepting of non-standard accents as well.

After having listened to your examples of Mandarin /t͡ɕ/, it is noticeably different from the Croatian one - to me it sounds like a palatalized /t͡s/, while the Croatian sounds more like palatalized /t͡ʃ/. The examples do differ slightly, with the last one resembling the Croatian sound the most, and the Serbian one even more. I think it's because of this similarity that <č> and <ć> are so prone to merger in Croatian. I don't think it has much to do with rounding, though - my <ć> is more or less neutral, neither rounded nor spread, while my <č> is slightly rounded.


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## Милан

LoveVanPersie said:


> As a second thought, I am watching a World Cup match Russia vs Croatia on HRT 2, and ć sounds rounded from the commentator? I think /t͡ɕ/ and /t͡ɕʰ/ in Mandarin are really unrounded and ć in Serbo-Croatian doesn't sound like them. Here are examples of Mandarin: /t͡ɕi/ with a falling tone, /t͡ɕʰi/ with a falling tone, /t͡ɕi/ with a rising tone, /t͡ɕʰi/ with a rising tone. Or, it's not a matter of roundness?



That third one (/t͡ɕi/ with a rising tone) sounds the closest to Serbian ћ (ć) to my ears.


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## Zec

I made my last response before the last two sound examples of Chinese were added. I still think that the first and second ones sound the most foreign to my ears. The third one sounds slightly voiced to me, which puts me off (How common is it for Mandarin to to voice unaspirated consonants?). The last one is therefore the least foreign to me.


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## LoveVanPersie

Zec said:


> I made my last response before the last two sound examples of Chinese were added. I still think that the first and second ones sound the most foreign to my ears. The third one sounds slightly voiced to me, which puts me off (How common is it for Mandarin to to voice unaspirated consonants?). The last one is therefore the least foreign to me.


I also think the third one is a little different from the other three. But it's not voiced I think. There are not voiced stops and voiced affricates in Mandarin.
I always thought the difference between Mandarin /t͡ɕ/ (as in Korean and Japanese) and Serbo-Croatian /t͡ɕ/ (as in Russian and Polish) is about roundness, untill you said the Mandarin one is [t͡sʲ]. But on papers I could find, the sound in Mandarin is only transcribed /t͡ɕ/.


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## Zec

I wouldn't say that it's exactly [t͡sʲ], but that as far as [t͡ɕ]-s go, it sounds closer to that than the Serbo-Croatian one. All sounds form a continuum and no phonetic alphabet is able to represent all possible sections with equal accuracy.  I still think the difference is in tongue position, but I'm not sure how exactly - I tried pronouncing [t͡ɕ] the Mandarin way and the way I did it was to use a more front part of the tongue than for my usual [t͡ɕ]. Is that how you pronounce it?


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## LoveVanPersie

It seems so. When I pronounce Mandarin /t͡ɕ/, my tip of the tongue is closer to the teeth than pronounced Serbo-Croatian one. To be honest, I can't distinguish Serbo-Croatian /t͡ɕ/ and English /t͡ʃ/. So I don't know which one I am pronuncing...


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## Zec

When I pronounce my  "ć", my tongue is positioned as for pure palatal consonants such as /j/: the tongue is convex, it's tip is resting near the bottom teeth, while the front-middle part touches the alveolar ridge. When I pronounce my "č", the tongue is concave and it's tip touches the alveolar ridge - it varies between apical and retroflex depending on following sounds.

The way I got the Mandarin-like [t͡ɕ] was by lifting the tip of the tongue from the bottom teeth and making the sound more like a laminal alveolar than a palatal.


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## Милан

LoveVanPersie said:


> I also think the third one is a little different from the other three. But it's not voiced I think. There are not voiced stops and voiced affricates in Mandarin.
> I always thought the difference between Mandarin /t͡ɕ/ (as in Korean and Japanese) and Serbo-Croatian /t͡ɕ/ (*as in Russian and Polish*) is about roundness, untill you said the Mandarin one is [t͡sʲ]. But on papers I could find, the sound in Mandarin is only transcribed /t͡ɕ/.


Okay, to my ears even Serbian ћ /t͡ɕ/ and Russian ч /t͡ɕ/ don't sound exactly the same.


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