# French and how other people speak it



## RODGER

I wonder if other "home" nations make fun of the pronounciation of those who speak their language as their national language, as the French do of the Belgians, Swiss and Canadians ?
I know that in England, while there are lots of jokes about the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh and vice-versa, and a few about Texans, in my experience, apart from outright racists of course, the idea of ridiculising someone just because of the way he speaks english doesn't really have much currency, while it seems fairly common in the french media, particularly on the radio. Do Spanish people make fun of Argentinians, say like this? Or Portuguese of Brazilians ?


Rodger


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## Dalian

In my country, standard mandarin speakers sometimes do of those speaking other varieties of Chinese.


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## DDT

RODGER said:
			
		

> I wonder if other "home" nations make fun of the pronounciation of those who speak their language as their national language, as the French do of the Belgians, Swiss and Canadians ?
> I know that in England, while there are lots of jokes about the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh and vice-versa, and a few about Texans, in my experience, apart from outright racists of course, the idea of ridiculising someone just because of the way he speaks english doesn't really have much currency, while it seems fairly common in the french media, particularly on the radio. Do Spanish people make fun of Argentinians, say like this? Or Portuguese of Brazilians ?
> 
> 
> Rodger



I hope not to be that OT if I post my impression about England as a foreigner...I spent some time in London and I did have the impression that some people were just judging you according to your accent. I am not generalizing, I don't think every Englishman behaves like that, I met some of the most open-minded people I could figure out during my stay...yet I happened to detect scorn in people's voices if your accent revealed that you didn't accomplish your studies in Oxford or Cambridge. Looks like a sort of classist will to defend ancient privileges or something. I might be wrong, I'd like someone to enlighten me about it 

DDT


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## Benjy

DDT said:
			
		

> I hope not to be that OT if I post my impression about England as a foreigner...I spent some time in London and I did have the impression that some people were just judging you according to your accent. I am not generalizing, I don't think every Englishman behaves like that, I met some of the most open-minded people I could figure out during my stay...yet I happened to detect scorn in people's voices if your accent revealed that you didn't accomplish your studies in Oxford or Cambridge. Looks like a sort of classist will to defend ancient privileges or something. I might be wrong, I'd like someone to enlighten me about it
> 
> DDT



english with regards to english:
yes.. there are those who judge on the basis of regional accents. i was often labelled thick on the basis of first impressions because i used to have a strong west midlands "black country accent".. its true that among certain social circles if you dont have a home counties accent then people will look upon you with disdain. fortunately they are in the minority


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## te gato

I have allways found it funny that people from Canada (Alberta) are called "Back wood hicks" as well. As far as I can tell we have NO accent what so ever! I sound just like some of the U.S people..Other than the fact that our sayings are a little strange. Yet when I go out of country I stil get "Where are you from--You talk funny"

It makes you wonder......
te gato


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## Outsider

RODGER said:
			
		

> Or Portuguese of Brazilians ?


In Portugal, it's much more common to make fun of regional Portuguese accents than of Brazilians (Northerners and inhabitants of the Alentejo or the islands are popular targets). The Brazilian accents are sometimes imitated, but not usually with the express intention of making fun of them; most Portuguese rather like them.

Mind you, these imitations of regional accents are usually done more in a all-in-good-fun, humorous way than as an insult.


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## RODGER

Ok DDT, I had overlooked the intricate way english people "decode" each other, thanks for pointing it out ! All to do with our sensitive Class and "North-South" system. When quizzed about my origins when I'm in England, I now reply "Saxon". 

Taking this on a bit, isn't it to do with how important it was many centuries (or millenia) ago, to be able to identify the "outsider",(when that probably meant someone from less than 50km away) by the way he spoke ?

But returning to the theme of the way in which french people react to variants of their language, is there not something in the structure of the language which prompts this apprehension about change or deviation ?

Rodger


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## Login

DDT said:
			
		

> I hope not to be that OT if I post my impression about England as a foreigner...I spent some time in London and I did have the impression that some people were just judging you according to your accent. I am not generalizing, I don't think every Englishman behaves like that, I met some of the most open-minded people I could figure out during my stay...yet I happened to detect scorn in people's voices if your accent revealed that you didn't accomplish your studies in Oxford or Cambridge. Looks like a sort of classist will to defend ancient privileges or something. I might be wrong, I'd like someone to enlighten me about it
> 
> DDT


 
I don't think this is typical to English. In every country / language, one will tend to "judge" the other one on the "first look". And the way you speak, your accent is part of it...


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## Login

RODGER said:
			
		

> I wonder if other "home" nations make fun of the pronounciation of those who speak their language as their national language, as the French do of the Belgians, Swiss and Canadians ?


 
In Belgium, we even "mock" at regional accents. So a _"liégeois" Oufti!_ will always sound funny to a _"Bruxellois" Une fois!_ ... 
In addition to the accent, there are also these 10 000 little expressions typically from one region or an other. But it is still French and understandable from everyone.

I learned that it's quite different for our Flemish neighbours. A Flemish from Bruges can't understand an other Flemish from Anvers (and vice versa) if they speak their local dialects ...  

And for those French from France who wonder how I sound... I don't have any Belgian accent


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## Login

RODGER said:
			
		

> But returning to the theme of the way in which french people react to variants of their language, is there not something in the structure of the language which prompts this apprehension about change or deviation ?
> 
> Rodger


 
What do you mean?


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## RODGER

Je tâtonne vers une explication, c'est très grosso modo, mais il y a d'un côté ce que je ressens comme une volonté d'invention de locutions, puisque la langue anglaise le permet, ou ne le punit pas en tout cas, et puisque la pression exercée par la concurrence commerciale effrénée outre-atlantique le veut, et de l'autre, une acceptation plutôt à contre gré, un ressentiment qui a du mal à s'exprimer, mêlé à l'appréhension d'être considéré comme vieux jeu si on ne s'exprime pas soit en se servant d'anglicismes, soit en innovant en français et je me pose la question de savoir si cela n'est pas lié à la structure de la langue, qui détermine d'une certaine façon, le type d'imaginaire des gens et leur attitude mentale ancrée. Est-ce que la difficulté,finalement, de la langue française, ses exigences, ne sont pas autant d'éléments qui inhibe un peu son évolution ? Tout cela, je le sais bien, est étudié dans les facultés par des gens beaucoup plus brillants que moi, mais je me dis que cela n'est pas une raison pour ne pas en parler. Je m'arrête là, très conscient du fait que mes arguments sont très sommaires et ont besoin de beaucoup d'amplification.

salut


Rodger  (je sais que je marche sur des oeufs)


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## Login

RODGER said:
			
		

> Je tâtonne vers une explication, c'est très grosso modo, mais il y a d'un côté ce que je ressens comme une volonté d'invention de locutions, puisque la langue anglaise le permet, ou ne le punit pas en tout cas, et puisque la pression exercée par la concurrence commerciale effrénée outre-atlantique le veut, et de l'autre, une acceptation plutôt à contre gré, un ressentiment qui a du mal à s'exprimer, mêlé à l'appréhension d'être considéré comme vieux jeu si on ne s'exprime pas soit en se servant d'anglicismes, soit en innovant en français et je me pose la question de savoir si cela n'est pas lié à la structure de la langue, qui détermine d'une certaine façon, le type d'imaginaire des gens et leur attitude mentale ancrée. Est-ce que la difficulté,finalement, de la langue française, ses exigences, ne sont pas autant d'éléments qui inhibe un peu son évolution ? Tout cela, je le sais bien, est étudié dans les facultés par des gens beaucoup plus brillants que moi, mais je me dis que cela n'est pas une raison pour ne pas en parler. Je m'arrête là, très conscient du fait que mes arguments sont très sommaires et ont besoin de beaucoup d'amplification.
> 
> salut
> 
> 
> Rodger  (je sais que je marche sur des oeufs)


 
Alors là... Comme on dit : No clue 
Mais le sujet est intéressant, je lirai les interventions des autres...


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## Benjy

hmm. i don't know if its the language itself. back in the day when it was napolean who was inventing all the new military terms we didnt translate them, we adopted them. coup d'état and all that. i think words tend to stay untranslated from the countries who invent them "blizkreig".. and more recently "parkour" a sport invented by a french man which has kept its french roots in the word and is the word by which the sport is now known. the adoption of new words depends on who's doing the innovating =]

mon petit grain de sel quoi


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## Whodunit

RODGER said:
			
		

> I wonder if other "home" nations make fun of the pronounciation of those who speak their language as their national language, as the French do of the Belgians, Swiss and Canadians ?
> I know that in England, while there are lots of jokes about the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh and vice-versa, and a few about Texans, in my experience, apart from outright racists of course, the idea of ridiculising someone just because of the way he speaks english doesn't really have much currency, while it seems fairly common in the french media, particularly on the radio. Do Spanish people make fun of Argentinians, say like this? Or Portuguese of Brazilians ?
> 
> 
> Rodger



There's the same thing between Germany and Austria - and Switzerland. We also make fun about the Austrian accent, and the Swiss throaty "ch".

You can also find this accent differents domestically, i.e. a man from Schleswig-Holstein wouldn't be able to understand a Bavarian and vise-versa if they would speak their accents.


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## fetchezlavache

RODGER said:
			
		

> I wonder if other "home" nations make fun of the pronounciation of those who speak their language as their national language, as the French do of the Belgians, Swiss and Canadians ?
> I know that in England, while there are lots of jokes about the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh and vice-versa, and a few about Texans, in my experience, apart from outright racists of course, the idea of ridiculising someone just because of the way he speaks english doesn't really have much currency, while it seems fairly common in the french media, particularly on the radio. Do Spanish people make fun of Argentinians, say like this? Or Portuguese of Brazilians ?
> 
> 
> Rodger



this is the second time you utter that derogatory remark about 'the french'. 

the first one is here 





			
				RODGER said:
			
		

> In a recent thread, Lucas, one of the moderators, stated "we have been using "envoyer une lettre " for centuries, why should we adopt "lettrer?" (or I would say "poster" ). I can see lots of reasons for doing so when I look at the evolution of the English language under the influence of North American speakers, but I see no similar francophone population (at least no similar one that is being listened to !) presently likely to exert such an influence. *Indeed the excesses of xenophobia which induce some French people to ridicule the way in which Belgians, Swiss and Canadians express themselves and to insult their intelligence * in this way could be argued as a way of preventing any such useful and enriching inputs to the French language, safely locked away in the vaults of the "Académie.
> 
> Discuss : You have 495 years
> 
> 
> Rodger




although i most definitely don't feel like i'm 'the french', i despise that kind of comments, generalising about a nation, and treating it of xenophobic.

you surely must know best, having spent 24 years in france. hail to you for that, how you could survive in such a lethal country is a mystery to me.

i've been to england only twice, once in surrey (1 week), once in leeds.(1 week as well). it has been enough time however for me to notice how southerners make fun of northerners, especially of their accent.

yet, i don't go around spitting on your country.

shame on you for those assertions.

and, moderators, in case you find me too fierce again, it's not me should be corrected, it's rodger's insulting comments.


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## Gil

...je me pose la question de savoir si cela n'est pas lié à la structure de la langue, qui détermine d'une certaine façon, le type d'imaginaire des gens et leur attitude mentale ancrée...

À moins d'une psychanalyse générale de la francophonie, difficile de voir tout ce que les francophones ont en commun à cause de la structure de leur langue.  J'ai toutefois l'impression de côtoyer des gens qui partagent cette même langue, dont les possibilités de création et de dérivation de nouveaux termes sont différentes de celles d'autres langues européennes, et qui sont quant même très différents de moi.  Certains sont plus brillants, plus....etc.  et d'autres moins.  Et il ne me vient pas à l'idée d'imputer le génie ou la connerie des gens à Vaugelas et aux grammairiens normatifs qui lui on succédé.  Je pense plutôt que le créateur a équitablement réparti le génie et la stupidité parmi les groupes linguistiques et qu'il faut chercher ailleurs que dans les structures d'une langue les différences d'attitudes, de valeurs, de culture et de personnalité des gens.  Si l'on veut croire que la langue française recèle "des armes de destruction culturelle massive" et qu'il suffit d'un peu de temps pour les débusquer, je souhaite beaucoup de patience aux tenants de cette hypothèse.  

I realize that I isolated one sentence in a larger text : not very fair, taking into account that I appreciate your suggestions and corrections to my aproximate English.
Nevertheless, je ne sais si c'est à cause de la langue française, j'ai un petit côté "brasseur de merde" qui m'amène à apprécier les discussions où il vaut mieux marcher sur des oeufs.    
Amicalement


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## Narda

Of course we Spanish speakers make fun of our friends from other countries, not only about the way they speak but also about the way they behave, or some of their traits, exagerated pride, lazyness, (or what some think is lazyness, other think is being smart), the way the approach life, etc.

Most of the time we do in a friendly, warm way.  Yet... there are some instances when that does not happen and people get hurt.

At any rate, I believe that the fact that we all speak and behave differently makes this life more interesting and fun.


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## Benjy

Gil said:
			
		

> ...je me pose la question de savoir si cela n'est pas lié à la structure de la langue, qui détermine d'une certaine façon, le type d'imaginaire des gens et leur attitude mentale ancrée...
> 
> À moins d'une psychanalyse générale de la francophonie, difficile de voir tout ce que les francophones ont en commun à cause de la structure de leur langue.  J'ai toutefois l'impression de côtoyer des gens qui partagent cette même langue, dont les possibilités de création et de dérivation de nouveaux termes sont différentes de celles d'autres langues européennes, et qui sont quant même très différents de moi.  Certains sont plus brillants, plus....etc.  et d'autres moins.  Et il ne me vient pas à l'idée d'imputer le génie ou la connerie des gens à Vaugelas et aux grammairiens normatifs qui lui on succédé.  Je pense plutôt que le créateur a équitablement réparti le génie et la stupidité parmi les groupes linguistiques et qu'il faut chercher ailleurs que dans les structures d'une langue les différences d'attitudes, de valeurs, de culture et de personnalité des gens.  Si l'on veut croire que la langue française recèle "des armes de destruction culturelle massive" et qu'il suffit d'un peu de temps pour les débusquer, je souhaite beaucoup de patience aux tenants de cette hypothèse.
> 
> I realize that I isolated one sentence in a larger text : not very fair, taking into account that I appreciate your suggestions and corrections to my aproximate English.
> Nevertheless, je ne sais si c'est à cause de la langue française, j'ai un petit côté "brasseur de merde" qui m'amène à apprécier les discussions où il vaut mieux marcher sur des oeufs.
> Amicalement




nice post.. i have to agree just about everything that you said, but there's this little part of me that wants to say that the language in which you think does in some ways structure the structure of your thinking.. if you see what i mean. but i suppose thats a whole other discussion.


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## Cath.S.

Il s'agit bien à mon avis d'un problème de xénophobie, mais ma propre expérience ainsi que les réponses fournies par d'autres membres de différentes origines m'incitent à croire que cette xénophobie est généralisée, et qu'elle ne naît pas de la structure d'un langage spécifique mais de sentiments nationalistes.

Cet état de fait perdurera, à mon sens, tant que notre planète sera divisée en pays ainsi qu'en classes et en castes.

En effet, si le prolétaire français se moque allégrement du Belge (qui devient par là son sous-prolétaire, au moins l'espace d'une conversation) le "Français d'en haut", lui, ne se prive pas de railler les barbarismes et les solécismes du "Français d'en bas" et ses manières de s'exprimer - l'inverse étant également vrai.


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## Gil

"...cette xénophobie est généralisée, et qu'elle ne naît pas de la structure d'un langage spécifique mais de sentiments nationalistes..."

D'accord, mais je donnerais un sens très large à "nationalistes".


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## RODGER

Shame on me indeed Fetchezlavache, I shouldn't have talked about "the French" , inexcusable generalisation, but I think that the love I have for so many aspects of life here and of so many people, entitles me to hate one or two, like Laurent Ruquier and Philippe Bouvard for example, who continue to recite the age old litanies of prejudice. So,it's love-hate, I haven't lived here for all that time by accident believe me !

(inexistent smiley to mean "please don't get me wrong") Rodger


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## Wordsmyth

RODGER said:
			
		

> Ok DDT, I had overlooked the intricate way english people "decode" each other, thanks for pointing it out ! All to do with our sensitive Class and "North-South" system. When quizzed about my origins when I'm in England, I now reply "Saxon".
> 
> Taking this on a bit, isn't it to do with how important it was many centuries (or millenia) ago, to be able to identify the "outsider",(when that probably meant someone from less than 50km away) by the way he spoke ?
> 
> But returning to the theme of the way in which french people react to variants of their language, is there not something in the structure of the language which prompts this apprehension about change or deviation ?
> 
> Rodger



Rodger, you suggest " to be able to identify the "outsider" ", but centuries ago I guess you could do that just because you hadn't seen him around before. 

I think your "french people... apprehension" comes closer to the real reason for the mockery -- and not just by French people! Confronted with an unfamiliar way of speaking, many people suffer a fear of the unknown (mild xenophobia?), are concerned that they won't understand or be able to handle the situation, or simply need to establish that their (familiar) way is best. 

There are others, thank .... [insert appropriate deity], who don't react that way : probably including most people who find their way to this forum.

OK, nuff said, I'll stop playing amateur psychologist!!


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## RODGER

This thread seems to be wandering a bit and generating a certain amount of unproductive heat. I'd like to recenter it around something Gil mentioned, about the abilities of different languages to produce new modes of expression. I would suggest that subject, "languages and new modes of expression" both from the outside (receptivity, adaptability, as related to history and heritage) and from the inside (youth culture, media control). These are just very broad outlines. What do people think ? 

Rodger


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