# Egyptian Arabic: final yaa2 without dots ي - ى



## gsc

I have two spelling for this, one dictionary has ي on the end, and the other ى

I must confess I am still confused about why and when these endings differ.

Does it imply a difference in pronounciation?  Is it something I need to learn for each word, parrot-fashion?


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## ayed

*سوريا*  Syria "the country"
Syrian *سوري"*a citizen" 
A Syrian boy *ولد سوري*
A Syrian girl *فتاة سورية*
*سوري المولد* Syrian-born


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## djamal 2008

تكتب سوريا باللأف كما تكتب دنيا و عليا لإن الألف على شكل الياء بدون النقتتين لا يجوز ان يتبع ياءً و بالإضافة كونها اسم أعجمي غير عربي,

إلاّ في اسم يحيى لتفدي ألإلتباس بالفعل يحيا


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## xebonyx

Hi gsc,

Yes, as Ayed said the "ii" at the end means "Syrian" and not the country itself. But what you might be referring to is how mostly Egyptians sometimes erroneously omit the two dots under the final yaa' within writing. At any rate, the pronunciation remains the same, as "ii".


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## gsc

Thanks all.

First let me apologise for the typo. You are right I meant to say Syrian.

Now as for Egyptian spellings, I see many of the nationalities end in ى not ي
So I would assume this was quite deliberate rather than a typing error. eg Saudi Arabian, Iranian, Israeli, Spanish, Turkish, Tunisian

Some that have ي : American, Egyptian, English, French, German, Italian, Russian.

This is taken from the Egyptian Arabic Vocab Clinic.

Is there any logic to this?

Edit:  Just checked a couple in The Rough Guide Egyptian Arabic and that agrees with the Vocab Clinic so it definitely isn't a typo.


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## xebonyx

I'll explain what I meant, maybe others can expand on this. I didn't say it's only Egyptian writers, but this typographical "rule" is mostly found occuring among them. I didn't say it was a typo, but it's in disagreement with the current system of writing.  I don't know about the relationship it has in other languages, because we're talking about Arabic. 

Also, it's intentional, but it's still not the established modern way of writing it in Arabic. It's based on an older system of writing, from older manuscripts.


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## djamal 2008

ولدٌ سوريّ بالشدة على الياء


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## clevermizo

xebonyx said:


> Hi gsc,
> 
> Yes, as Ayed said the "ii" at the end means "Syrian" and not the country itself. But what you might be referring to is how mostly Egyptians sometimes erroneously omit the two dots under the final yaa' within writing. At any rate, the pronunciation remains the same, as "ii".



It's not erroneous. It is the standard way of spelling in Egypt and is also found in the Qur'an.


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## gsc

Is there a reason why some are spelt this way but not others?


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## clevermizo

I'm not sure, but there is probably some historical reason why final yaa2 is spelled ـى in Egypt, whereas the other Arab countries have adopted ـي with dots. The reason is just due to traditions and history, and is not linguistic.

Anyway, Gsc - if you see a text that contains these adjective endings without dots: سورى, أمريكى، rather than سوري، أمريكي, it is because the text is of Egyptian origin. However, it sounds like whatever text you're using is being inconsistent by using both, which I find strange.


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## Nikola

Perhaps the Egyptians can clarify, but I have seen it both with and without written by Egyptians.


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## gsc

clevermizo said:


> However, it sounds like whatever text you're using is being inconsistent by using both, which I find strange.


I think it must be more than that as I have spot checked one or two nationalities in other places and some use ي and some use *ى* but they are consistantly inconsistant, if you know what I mean 

ie 
Spanish and Syrian is always written with a ى
English and Egyptian with a ي

Note: I'm only talking of *Egyptian* books and software here.


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## Mahaodeh

I think the reason the dots were added was to distinguish it from the alif maqsoora; this is not recenet, the dots were added shortly after Islam, so they've been around for at least thirteen centuries. Hence, I don't think that not adding the dot's in Egypt comes from that, I would imagin (just my guess) that this was a borrowing from Ottoman Turkish who use the same alphabet but they don't have alif maqsoora only yaa', so they never added dots to the yaa' (Persian is the same).

Just my 2 cents


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## gsc

Lol - so this looks like another one where I must learn things parrot fashion! Ah well, my spelling in English is getting dreadful as I get older so I guess I should not expect too much in Arabic


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## Mahaodeh

I would suggest that if you were writing, use the dots becaue Egyptians would easily understand it; you just have to keep in mind that sometime Egyptians don't use the dots when reading something typed by Egyptians or printed in Egypt.


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## djamal 2008

In the Quran, there is another mark that follow the last letter if it's lenghtened or elongated at the end, it's either a small waw, a ya or a small alif on the ى

ُ  ى  '


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## xebonyx

clevermizo said:


> It's not erroneous. It is the standard way of spelling in Egypt and is also found in the Qur'an.



I wasn't saying that it was incorrect to write that way, just that it's inconsistent with the yaa with two dots.


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