# Urdu: گ‏نجان



## Cilquiestsuens

Taslimaat

I have just heard the word  *gunjaan*  used in a sense I quite don't understand

The only meaning I know of this word is: dense, densely populated

Here is the sentence in question from the series Shaheed e Kufa, part 20

*    ہم مخفی و گ‏نجان راستے سے جا رہے ہیں*
_ham makhfii o gunjaan raaste se jaa rahe hain
_
This dialog comes while they are crossing a desert. I was rather expecting a world like *viraana* in that sentence

Is this a translation / dubbing mistake or can the word _*gunjaan*_ convey this meaning too, quite the exact opposite of its known meaning
?​


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## hungariansikh

gunjan rasta means a road where many people cross,


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Taslimaat
> 
> I have just heard the word  *gunjaan*  used in a sense I quite don't understand
> 
> The only meaning I know of this word is: dense, densely populated
> 
> Here is the sentence in question from the series Shaheed e Kufa, part 20
> 
> *    ہم مخفی و گ‏نجان راستے سے جا رہے ہیں*
> _ham makhfii o gunjaan raaste se jaa rahe hain
> _
> This dialog comes while they are crossing a desert. I was rather expecting a world like *viraana* in that sentence
> 
> Is this a translation / dubbing mistake or can the word _*gunjaan*_ convey this meaning too, quite the exact opposite of its known meaning?​


Could you please provide the exact time when this sentence is uttered in the Youtube video. Thanks.​


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Taslimaat
> 
> I have just heard the word  *gunjaan*  used in a sense I quite don't understand
> 
> The only meaning I know of this word is: dense, densely populated
> 
> Here is the sentence in question from the series Shaheed e Kufa, part 20
> 
> *    ہم مخفی و گ‏نجان راستے سے جا رہے ہیں*
> _ham makhfii o gunjaan raaste se jaa rahe hain
> _
> This dialog comes while they are crossing a desert. I was rather expecting a world like *viraana* in that sentence
> 
> Is this a translation / dubbing mistake or can the word _*gunjaan*_ convey this meaning too, quite the exact opposite of its known meaning
> ?​


 I haven't seen the video but _gunjaan_ has two meanings:

1) Dense, thick (for a thicket / jungle, for example)
2) Broken, severed etc. - can be used for a path or road, as in _gunjaan / paash paash raastah __= broken, unrepaired road / route (lit.)_

I wonder if they really meant to use _gunjaan_ or was it supposed to be _anjaan raastah_ (=unknown route)!! The latter would fit with _maxfii _ = hidden / unknown!

Sometimes in these dubbings (the original is in Farsi) you do come across unusual, if not incorrect translations! I found the same in the other Farsi series (dubbed into Urdu) called مختارنامه _Mukhtar Namah_ – about  المختار الثقفي _al-muxtaar ath-thaqafii_.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thanks Faylasoof Sahab for your input. That could explain it. I actually like the odd expressions they use in the Urdu dubbed version. I guess they wanted to give an exotic touch to their Urdu. 

I have checked the video again, and it clearly says *gunjaan* and not *anjaan*.

The video is the one titled {SHAHEED E KUFA (FULL ISLAMIC MOVIE) URDU VERSION  PART 20/22}   and the said dialog is around 07:50.


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Thanks Faylasoof Sahab for your input. That could explain it. I actually like the odd expressions they use in the Urdu dubbed version. I guess they wanted to give an exotic touch to their Urdu.
> 
> I have checked the video again, and it clearly says *gunjaan* and not *anjaan*.
> 
> The video is the one titled {SHAHEED E KUFA (FULL ISLAMIC MOVIE) URDU VERSION  PART 20/22}   and the said dialog is around 07:50.


 Welcome janaab Cilquiestsuens SaaHib! I just saw it! It is *gunjaan* they use and _not_ *anjaan* (!) and the former is used as an Urdu equivalent for the English 'detour' in the subtitle! Unusual I must say but one feels it still can make sense, given the context. 
 You could be correct that by using _*gunjaan*_ they may have wished to give it a touch of the exotic! It would be interesting to find out what word(s) was (were) used in the original Persian here.


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## Qureshpor

What are your views about this explanation?

"gunjiidan" is equivalent to the verb "samaanaa" (to fill up room or occupy space).

"gunjaan" as an adjective would therefore give "occupying space" or "spacious/sprawling/expansive".

ham maxfii-o-gunjaan raaste se jaa rahe  haiN (If this is indeed what the character is saying)

We are passing through a secret* (yet) expansive passage.

* hitherto untrodden


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## marrish

I understand the sentence to say ''We are travelling along (both) hidden and populated ways to bring the message as soon as possible.

By the way, Platts says the word is of Prakrit origins (?)


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I understand the sentence to say ''We are travelling along (both) hidden and populated ways to bring the message as soon as possible.
> 
> By the way, Platts says the word is of Prakrit origins (?)


Please check if it is in any of the well known Hindi dictionaries. I would have thought it was linked to the verb "gunjiidan".


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Please check if it is in any of the well known Hindi dictionaries. I would have thought it was linked to the verb "gunjiidan".


Well, in my personal dictionary it is marked as Fa. (Persian), so we might have another imperfection of etymology. Of course the scope of meaning of the Persian verb covers the same concept, but I can't find _gunjaan_ in Persian dictionaries.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Isn't _*gunjaan*_ etymologically related to *gunjaa'ish* and therefore Farsi?


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Well, in my personal dictionary it is marked as Fa. (Persian), so we might have another imperfection of etymology. Of course the scope of meaning of the Persian verb covers the same concept, but I can't find _gunjaan_ in Persian dictionaries.


 marrish SaaHib, my three Urdu lexicons also give it a Persian etymology with (ف) = Farsi. So I agree that this may be another word with less than clear etymology … but please see below.


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## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Isn't _*gunjaan*_ etymologically related to *gunjaa'ish* and therefore Farsi?


 Good guess, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib! Here is the evidence:

*گنجان* . [ گ ُ ] (نف ) *صفت فاعلی از گنجیدن* .(*کلیله و دمنه *به نقل بهار در سبک شناسی ج 2 ص 266).

As is clear, this is meant to be pronounced as _gunjaan_ and is from _ganjiidan_.

  [There is a second meaning but that is not of interest. There is also a place in Iran, but it is called ganjaan! ]


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Good guess, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib! Here is the evidence:
> 
> *گنجان* . [ گ ُ ] (نف ) *صفت فاعلی از گنجیدن* .(*کلیله و دمنه *به نقل بهار در سبک شناسی ج 2 ص 266).
> 
> As is clear, this is meant to be pronounced as _gunjaan_ and is from _ganjiidan_.
> 
> [There is a second meaning but that is not of interest. There is also a place in Iran, but it is called ganjaan! ]



Faylasoof SaaHib, I am not convinced that gunjaan is derived from "ganjiidan". Having said this I too can't find any sign of "gunjaan" in Persian dictionaries.

My "logic" for thinking that it is linked to "gunjdiidan/gunjaaniidan" is this: From "paimuudan" (present root paa) we get paimaa'ish and paimaan. Similarly from gunjaaniidan, there ought to be both gunjaa'ish and gunjaan. Further examples are farmaa'ish/farmaan, aasaa'ish/aasaan

Are you aware of any Persian verbs where the original initial vowel change occurs (e.g your suggestion of g*a*njiidan >> g*u*njaan) ?


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## Cilquiestsuens

I just got to check _Fiiroz ul lughaat_ in this matter and got quite surprised by what they say.




> گنجان ۔  (گُن ۔  جان) (ہ ۔ صف)  ۔  گھنا ۔ پاس پاس، متّصل۔




 I am therefore more confused than ever - well, I don't say _Fiiroz ul lughaat_ can't be wrong, but it's quite reliable, I think.

The first surprising thing is that it attributes its origin to Hindi - that's what the ہ in   (ہ ۔ صف) is supposed to mean.

Then the meanings given پاس پاس، متّصل     could make sense in the context I had mentioned above, but this meaning hasn't been suggested by any of the highly knowledgeable *Urdu-daan Hazraat* of this forum??


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, I am not convinced that gunjaan is derived from "ganjiidan". Having said this I too can't find any sign of "gunjaan" in Persian dictionaries.
> 
> My "logic" for thinking that it is linked to "gunjdiidan/gunjaaniidan" is this: From "paimuudan" (present root paa) we get paimaa'ish and paimaan. Similarly from gunjaaniidan, there ought to be both gunjaa'ish and gunjaan. Further examples are farmaa'ish/farmaan, aasaa'ish/aasaan
> 
> Are you aware of any Persian verbs where the original initial vowel change occurs (e.g your suggestion of g*a*njiidan >> g*u*njaan) ?


 A change of vowel QP SaaHib? Yes! At least one example comes to mind right now: _burdan_ -> _bar _-> _bardah_ & _bardani etc. _However, coming to the topic, and now that I’ve started looking into _gunjaan _in some detail, I must say, unlike earlier, I no longer except that it might have a double etymology (Persian & Prakrit) as was suggested to me and which I started to believe! Etymology can be important as it can give rise to different meanings. We have words that are suggested to have a double etymology and hence two different meanings, e.g. the word _qalam,_ as discussed elsewhere. 

After doing more searches I’m fairly convinced that _gunjaan_ really has one etymology – and it is not Persian but Prakrit, so many of our Urdu lexicons got this wrong it seems – and hence one meaning. So Platts seems right after all, as is _fiiroz ul lughaat_ (above post, # 15 ) and some fairly reliable online Urdu lexicons as well, both in etymology and meaning. All this means that I need to go back to my fears that the usage in the movie concerned is incorrect! There _anjaan_ would make more sense but they do say _gunjaan_ which seems quite odd - wrong actually given the context!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> A change of vowel QP SaaHib? Yes! At least one example comes to mind right now: _burdan_ -> _bar _-> _bardah_ & _bardani etc. _However, coming to the topic, and now that I’ve started looking into _gunjaan _in some detail, I must say, unlike earlier, I no longer except that it might have a double etymology (Persian & Prakrit) as was suggested to me and which I started to believe! Etymology can be important as it can give rise to different meanings. We have words that are suggested to have a double etymology and hence two different meanings, e.g. the word _qalam,_ as discussed elsewhere.
> 
> After doing more searches I’m fairly convinced that _gunjaan_ really has one etymology – and it is not Persian but Prakrit, so many of our Urdu lexicons got this wrong it seems – and hence one meaning. So Platts seems right after all, as is _fiiroz ul lughaat_ (above post, # 15 ) and some fairly reliable online Urdu lexicons as well, both in etymology and meaning. All this means that I need to go back to my fears that the usage in the movie concerned is incorrect! There _anjaan_ would make more sense but they do say _gunjaan_ which seems quite odd - wrong actually given the context!



Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib.

Here is one example of the existence of the word "gunjaan" (?) in Persian literature (Kaliilah va Dimnah).

و نشاید که پادشاه تغیر مزاج خویش بی یقینی صادق با اهل و امانت روا دارد، ولیکن باید که در مجال حلم و بسطت علم او همه چیز گنجان باشد


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## Phosphorus

Faylasoof said:


> Good guess, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib! Here is the evidence:
> 
> *گنجان* . [ گ ُ ] (نف ) *صفت فاعلی از گنجیدن* .(*کلیله و دمنه *به نقل بهار در سبک شناسی ج 2 ص 266).
> 
> As is clear, this is meant to be pronounced as _gunjaan_ and is from _ganjiidan_.
> 
> [There is a second meaning but that is not of interest. There is also a place in Iran, but it is called ganjaan! ]



Faylasoof SaaHiib, I believe "gunjiidan" (modern Western Persian "gonjiidan") is the proper pronunciation. Dehkhoda's as well as Moin's online versions explicitly cite "gonjiidan".

By the way the toponym "Ganjaan" is most likely related to "ganj" ~ "treasure" plus famous Iranian toponym suffix "-an" (cf. "Gilan", "Mazandaran", "Kermanshahan", "Shemiran", and perhaps even "Tehran").



Faylasoof said:


> A change of vowel QP SaaHib? Yes! At least one example comes to mind right now: _burdan_ -> _bar _-> _bardah_ & _bardani etc._



In this example it is actually "u" that is developed from "a", not the vice versa. If I am not mistaken it is a Middle Iranian feature in various Iranian languages which also happens in a few other words: "mordan" ~ "miir-" in sense of "die" and "pol" ~ "bridge" which are, along with "bordan" ~ "bar-", respectively derived from Old Iranian forms such as "ma(h)r-*", "prtu*", and "bar-". This development does not happen in Kurdish: "mirdin" ~ "mir-", "pird", and "birdin" ~ "be-".



QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib.
> 
> Here is one example of the existence of the word "gunjaan" (?) in Persian literature (Kaliilah va Dimnah).
> 
> و نشاید که پادشاه تغیر مزاج خویش بی یقینی صادق با اهل و امانت روا دارد، ولیکن باید که در مجال حلم و بسطت علم او همه چیز گنجان باشد



What I get over here is that in this context "gunjaan" seems to be synonymous with a supposed form of "gunjaayandah" than with "gunjaanandah". If I am not mistaken it might be something similar to "مظروف".


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