# 靴は履いていますが, 靴下履いていません



## rainbowizard

こんにちわ
I am translating the specified sentences but I am not sure about the meaning of that が particle.
靴は履いています*が*, 靴下履いていません
Google translator maybe this time gave me a hint, since the suggested translations are 
_*Although *I wear shoes, I do not wear __socks
_or else
_I wear shoes, *but *I am not wearing socks_
However ... what are the subjects and what are the objects of the two sentences above ... I am really puzzled 

I would have said:
*(僕は)*靴*を*履いています*だが*, 靴下*を*履いていません

please, help me understand


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## Tonky

rainbowizard said:


> 靴は履いています*が*, 靴下*は*履いていません


「靴を履いています。」+「靴下を履いていません。」→「靴は履いていますが、靴下は履いていません。」
This is the most typical comparison sentence using the は function called 取り立て(とりたて)/not sure how this term is translated, but it is to pick the target by mentioning in particular with は particle. This is why you almost always use (or learn that you use) は for negations.
りんご*を*食べました。
みかん*を*食べませんでした。
　↓
りんご*は*食べましたが、みかん*は*食べませんでした。

赤いペン*が*１本あります。
青いペン*が*３本あります。
　↓
赤いペン*は*１本ありますが、青いペン*は*３本あります。

京都*へ*行きます。
奈良*へ*行きません。
　↓
京都*へは*行きますが、奈良*へは*行きません。(or 京都*は*行きますが、奈良*は*行きません。）​
So, yes, the translation "but" for this が(conjunction) would suffice in this context, but it does not always mean "but". 
I hope this would solve your "subject? object?" question. Remember that は is not a subject marker.

p.s.


> 靴を履いています*だが, *


～ます+が→～ますが（or dictionary form+が）
～です+が→～ですが（or ～だが）
～だ+が→～だが


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## rainbowizard

Thank you very much, Tonky.
Crystal clear!
I am gonna print your reply, put it into a frame and hang it on the wall in my room


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## YangMuye

I think が is mainly used when you has made a complete sentence, but it doesn't convey what you (most) want to say.
が sounds like that *you haven't finished speaking*, and the listener will wait for you to continue.

Sentences after が are usually more important.
Sentences before が are usually less important, e.g.


> オタクですが、何か？


or sometimes merely parentheses.

More often, が is used to provide some background information. As some people (like me) consider background or context as a synonym of subject/topic, sometimes が really works like a topic marker. The most typical form of this usage is (の/ん)だが・ですが.


> 明日なんだけど、
> 先のことですが、
> 駅を探しているんですが、


Comparing with は, I feel that (だ)が is usually used to mention something that hasn't been talked about (= to change the topic/start a topic).

I don't know if there is any etymological relationship between this usage and “subject marker が”.


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## frequency

YangMuye said:


> Comparing with は, I feel that (だ)が is usually used to mention something that hasn't been talked about (= to change the topic/start a topic).
> I don't know if there is any etymological relationship between this usage and “subject marker が”.



A conjunction works for joining sentences. Like in yours オタクですが、何か？, see オタクです is a sentence/clause. So this が is a conjunction が and works, like you said, 'to change the topic/start a topic'. Then, how's 先のことですが？Yes, it's difficult for us to say it sentence..I can't define. Sorry lol!

But when you say　私が～ or オタクが～, they are noun(subject) + が, and this が works as a subject marker, if roughly speaking. 靴は履いています is, of course, a sentence. I mean that conjunction が and subject marker が work differently, as you know.


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## Tonky

YangMuye said:


> I don't know if there is any etymological relationship between this usage and “subject marker が”.


Here is a link to a short summary of the theory on historical particles by Ishigaki, Kenji(石垣謙二) in Japanese.
http://db3.ninjal.ac.jp/SJL/txtview.php
This is too hard for me to talk about in English and probably rainbowizard-san does not need this info(too advanced even for natives), so please excuse me for replying in Japanese.
石垣説(石垣謙二「助詞の歴史的研究」)では、「主格「が」助詞より接続「が」助詞へ」において、接続助詞「が」の成立過程が論じられています。


			
				松尾拾 said:
			
		

> 上代に用言をうけ得なかった主格「が」が、平安時代になると用言をもうけるようになる、(石垣)氏はこの現象を重視し、接続「が」の発生する根拠を遠くここに求めることができると断じる。


また、石垣説を受けた、下のような論文もネットで見られます。
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/els/11000253367...der_no=&ppv_type=0&lang_sw=&no=1380897621&cp=
http://naosite.lb.nagasaki-u.ac.jp/...2259/1/kyoikuJK00_20_03.pdf#search='接続助詞が+成立'
私自身は古典にあまり詳しくないので、深く触れることができません。
YangMuyeさんの言われているのは、いわゆる金田一の言う「は・が」における「旧情報」と「新情報」の対立が、この接続助詞「が」にも見られるのでは、ということではないかと思いますが、実際のところどうなのか、今までよく考えたことがなかったですね。これから気をつけてみたいと思います。
(しかし、この議論は#2にはったリンクのスレッドに投稿した方がトピック的に適していたかもしれませんね）

edit:
すみません、「旧情報」と「新情報」、最初に提唱したのは金田一ではなく、松下大三郎でした m(_ _)m


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## rainbowizard

Tonky said:


> 「靴を履いています。」+「靴下を履いていません。」→「靴は履いていますが、靴下は履いていません。」
> This is the most typical comparison sentence using the は function called 取り立て(とりたて)/not sure how this term is translated, but it is to pick the target by mentioning in particular with は particle.


I am sorry but I have to return on the main topic.
I found another example where the は particle is not used to 'pick the target' of the 1st sentence but it is used instead to mark the main subject:

彼は卵を持っていますが、食べていません

he has an egg, but (he's) not eating (it)
... and I think (please, confirm )that we could also write: 彼は卵を持っていますが、卵を食べていません even if the second time 卵を could sound redundant.

so, returning to the first example...

靴は履いていますが、靴下は履いていません
may also be put as
[彼は or 僕は ... or subject omitted]靴を履いていますが、靴下を履いていません
or the sentence above is wrong?

In other words ... may the を particle be used instead of は in this kind of construct ?
Is the はparticle only preferred?
Sorry but I thought I understood, however I am still a bit confused :|

Edit: with similar arguments ... I would put my question for other particles also...
taking your last example:
京都へ行きます。
 奈良へ行きません。
 　↓
京都へは行きますが、奈良へは行きません。(or 京都は行きますが、奈良は行きません。）

is also the following correct (without any は)?

京都へ行きますが、奈良へ行きません


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## Tonky

rainbowizard said:


> 彼は卵を持っていますが、食べていません
> 
> he has an egg, but (he's) not eating (it)
> ... and I think (please, confirm )that we could also write: 彼は卵を持っていますが、卵を食べていません even if the second time 卵を could sound redundant.


Yes, you could say that. 
I said "target" above, but は is usually called a "topic" marker and has a function of giving a topic; what you talk about.
彼は卵を持っていますが、食べていません。
"(As for him,) he has an egg but is not eating it(or has not eaten it)." 
は here shows that the topic of this sentence is 彼 and it is the same as its subject. 
Cf.
彼*は*、卵を持って*は*いますが、食べて*は*いません。
(As for him,) he has an egg, but is not eating/has not eaten it.
The first *は* is showing the topic, the second and third *は* are showing the comparison, by picking each target phrase to compare.

fyi, this Japanese sentence sounds a little bit weird without a certain context. 持っている does not make it sound like this egg is something to eat, but instead sounds like it is something to carry for another purpose.
Also, if you have learned ～ている in details already, you may notice why I had put two different translations of "be ~ing" and "have+past participle". If not yet, ignore it for now. It'll be off-topic for this thread anyways.



> 靴は履いていますが、靴下は履いていません
> may also be put as
> [彼は or 僕は ... or subject omitted]靴を履いていますが、靴下を履いていません
> or the sentence above is wrong?


It is not wrong. But it depends on the context, sometimes using は instead of を is preferred or would sound more natural.
Sentences like your example is often used for "information gap" games, if you know what that is... a pair of students have a picture of several people in different clothes, student A tells student B what someone is wearing and B guesses whom in the picture A is talking about.



> is also the following correct (without any は)?
> 
> 京都へ行きますが、奈良へ行きません


Yes. It is correct, but all depends on contexts. The essential point is what the speaker wants to mainly talk about and put a stress on.


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## ekapa

[彼は or 僕は ... or subject omitted]靴を履いていますが、靴下を履いていません ,it okay


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