# pronunciation: participle [stress]



## Sasha Ivanov

Where do the majority of people put the stress in "participle"?
I know it's an "AmE vs BrE" difference and a matter of personal preference, but I would like to be with the majority on this one


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## srk

Sasha Ivanov said:


> but I would like to be with the majority on this one


I don't think any Americans accent the second syllable, and there are more of us.


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## Sasha Ivanov

srk said:


> I don't think any Americans accent the second syllable, and there are more of us.


I also have been saying /PAR.../ but recently I discovered that the man's voice, which is posited as the General American accent, pronounces it /par - TI.../ I was so mad, the /PAR.../ variant is never mentioned anywhere in the dictionary,


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## srk

Sasha Ivanov said:


> but recently I discovered that the man's voice, which is posited as the General American accent, pronounces it /par - TI.../


Have you used the "listen" feature in our dictionary?  The first syllable is accented in the "US" version.

The American Heritage Dictionary ignores the BE pronunciation.  I suppose UK dictinaries are biased the other way.


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## sdgraham

Sasha Ivanov said:


> I also have been saying /PAR.../ but recently I discovered that the man's voice, which is posited as the General American accent, pronounces it /par - TI.../ I was so mad, the /PAR.../ variant is never mentioned anywhere in the dictionary,


Please identify the_ source_ of this nonsense.


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## Sasha Ivanov

sdgraham said:


> Please identify the_ source_ of this nonsense.


It's on my phone, an app, the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. On their site the same man, pronounces it correctly /PAR/ and IPA for the AmE also is /'par-/.
But strangely enough, in the mobile app both the IPA and the same man's voice (it's not a machine, a real person) are the same as the pronunciation given for BrE.
I wanted to throw my phone on the ground ans stomp on it, I was so mad.
They caused a paradigm shift to happen for me


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## JulianStuart

Collins : *participle* /ˈpɑːtɪsɪpəl;  pɑːˈtɪsɪpəl/
I grew up with BE and have used and heard *participle*  pɑːˈtɪsɪpəl (no R in either version)
If you want to be in the majority of E speakers, then go with AE (it will save you on the cost of replacing the phones you seem wont to destroy on a whim!).  Are you trying to decide whether to learn AE or BE?


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## lentulax

In British English, the stress is on the first syllable. My Oxford dictionary gives no alternative. I have never heard it pronounced otherwise by any educated person, including language teachers. I've heard it occasionally stressed on the second syllable, and it jars in the same way as stressing the third syllable of 'advertisement' (though I think in the latter case there may be an element of regional justification). Of course, language changes (BE mostly to AE)- it's decades since British children pronounced the word 'lieutenant' as 'leftenant' - but I've not been aware of any general change to acceptance of partICiple in the UK.


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## JulianStuart

lentulax said:


> In British English, the stress is on the first syllable. My Oxford dictionary gives no alternative. I have never heard it pronounced otherwise by any educated person, including language teachers. I've heard it occasionally stressed on the second syllable, and it jars in the same way as stressing the third syllable of 'advertisement' (though I think in the latter case there may be an element of regional justification). Of course, language changes (BE mostly to AE)- it's decades since British children pronounced the word 'lieutenant' as 'leftenant' - but I've not been aware of any general change to acceptance of partICiple in the UK.


As noted above, Collins, reflecting BE, gives both, with the one you intimate is "incorrect" as the second and lower frequency.  I consider myself well-educated but, given my age , that form may well be fading rather than "representing a general change" - this would expalin your experience and the dictionary entry.

Pause

This entry from an Oxford dictionary reverses the order that COllins presnts
participle | Definition of participle in English by Oxford Dictionaries


> *participle*
> *Pronunciation /pɑːˈtɪsɪp(ə)l/   /ˈpɑːtɪsɪp(ə)l/*


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## heypresto

I'm a little confused. I'm a second-syllable-stresser. Should I apologise?


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## JulianStuart

heypresto said:


> I'm a little confused. I'm a second-syllable-stresser. Should I apologise?


Nope  The dictionaries seem confused too, based on the entries in #9.

(Are you educated, I wonder   I still say leftenant, too)


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## heypresto

I'm a lefty, except when I talk about Columbo - which is pretty rare.


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## Loob

lentulax said:


> In British English, the stress is on the first syllable. My Oxford dictionary gives no alternative. I have never heard it pronounced otherwise by any educated person,


Intriguing  - as Julian says, it must be a generation thing.
Which Oxford dictionary are you looking at,  by the way? The only ones I've found that give first-syllable-stress-with-no-alternative are the North American English dictionary: Definition of participle in US English by Oxford Dictionaries and the American Advanced Learner's: Oxford Advanced American Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com


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## sound shift

lentulax said:


> In British English, the stress is on the first syllable. My Oxford dictionary gives no alternative. I have never heard it pronounced otherwise by any educated person.


I've heard it pronounced with first and second-syllable stress. I assume that all the people I've heard utter it were educated - in language, at least: I can't see that an uneducated person would have much use for the word. I may vacillate between the two pronunciations; I don't know.

Seriously, I think Sasha already has the answer to his question (post 7).


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## lentulax

When I think about it , I realise that probably the last time I actually heard anyone use the word 'participle' was when I was learning a bit of Greek and Italian, around the time I acquired the dictionary in my study which I quoted from above, the New Oxford Dictionary of English, published in 2001. So plenty of water under the bridge since then , and I defer to those who probably have more experience of current UK usage of the word than I have, and don't find that 'parTIciple' sounds odd.


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## Edinburgher

This discussion has been added to a previous thread.  Cagey, moderator 

When I say "participle", I stress it on the first syllable: PAR-ti-siple (1), and I think I've always heard it said that way too.
But I've just come across someone (in an English-teaching video, no less, ("English with Lucy", BE)), stressing the second syllable: Par-TIS-siple (2).

To my surprise, when I listened to the pronunciations in WRD, only the US and Aus voices use (1), while all the UK (plus Irish, Scottish, and Jamaican) speakers use (2).
The WRD printed pronunciations give (1) for AE (Random House), and both variants for BE (Collins).  Lexico (BE) also lists both.  M-W gives (1), but adds "Britain also (2)".

How do you say it?


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## elroy

(1)


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## JulianStuart

I've heard both and possibly even used both - on those rare occasions when I need to utter the word.


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## USMeg

AE: *1* for sure.


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## Wordy McWordface

Definitely 2:  pah-TISS-i-pul.


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## Loob

2nd syllable for me


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## abluter

2nd syllable


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## entangledbank

(1) _PAR-_ is the only one listed in the 1930s _Shorter Oxford_, or in the 1990s _Chambers_, and I've said it all my life (including through a degree in linguistics), and I'd never heard of an alternative until now. The re-stressing makes sense: English doesn't like three unstressed syllables in a row.


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## Ellieanne

2nd syllable for me.


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## Wordy McWordface

entangledbank said:


> (1) _PAR-_ is the only one listed in the 1930s _Shorter Oxford_, or in the 1990s _Chambers_, and I've said it all my life (including through a degree in linguistics), and I'd never heard of an alternative until now. The re-stressing makes sense: English doesn't like three unstressed syllables in a row.


So you (and Edinburgher) pronounce 'participle' like 'serviceable'?  Stressed syllable followed by three unstressed ones?  Interesting. I wasn't aware that that was an 'alternative'


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## JulianStuart

Mutlisyllable words (like _preferably_, _advertisement_ and _subsidence)_ are often the subject of controversy


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## ewie

I think I use (1).


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## kentix

It's not three unstressed syllables in AE. There's also stress on cip. It doesn't have the rhythm of serviceable.

It's STRESSED unstressed STRESSED unstressed

I have been trying to come up with a word with the same rhythm. I could only come up with carpe diem.

I looked up four-syllable words and found:

Acupuncture - *ACK* yu *punk* ch(sh)ur


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## natkretep

Second syllable for me. I'm afraid I also reduce the vowel of the first syllable (maybe influenced by the pronunciation of _particular_).


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## elroy

entangledbank said:


> (1) _PAR-_ is the only one listed in the 1930s _Shorter Oxford_, or in the 1990s _Chambers_, and I've said it all my life (including through a degree in linguistics), and I'd never heard of an alternative until now. The re-stressing makes sense: English doesn't like three unstressed syllables in a row.


 Are you saying you've always said (1) but find that (2) makes more sense?


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## heypresto

I'm definitely in the 2 camp. And JulianStuart, in post #11, assured me I don't have to apologise for it.


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## Edinburgher

kentix said:


> It's not three unstressed syllables in AE. There's also stress on cip. It doesn't have the rhythm of serviceable.
> I have been trying to come up with a word with the same rhythm. I could only come up with carpe diem.


Yes, for me there is also stress on "cip", but it's a secondary stress, much weaker than that on the first syllable.  I perceive the stress pattern as identical to that in _serviceable_ and _acupuncture_, and also _interloper_, _alternator_ and _generator_.  _Carpe diem_ is different for me; it also has two stresses, but main and secondary stresses are the other way round (*car*-pay-*DEE*-em), as in _elocution_ and _vaccination_.

Thank you all for your various answers.

At any rate, it's definitely (1) for me, and I think that this must be due to the familiarity effect.  The first time you hear something, it becomes your personal standard, and whenever you hear it differently thereafter, it feels odd.

I already knew the word in German and Spanish, both of which stress it on the third syllable (albeit with secondary on the first).  The first time I encountered it in English was at high school in Canada, of course with the standard North American pronunciation.

Several people here have commented that it's not a word they use very often.  We do actually use it very often in this forum when answering grammar questions, but ours is a written medium, and it probably is true that we don't often hear or say it.  It's not the sort of word that crops up much in the course of prandial chat.

Some say the BE standard used to be  (1).  While there has been much divergence in pronunciation, spelling, and even vocabulary between AE and BE, much of it stemming from AE having evolved more slowly than BE, and therefore reflecting BE as it was at the time of colonization, it seems unusual to find an example of such a change as recent as post-1930, especially when much recent BE change has been towards AE, rather than away from it.

I wonder what really drove it.  Could it be the verb *participate*?


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## entangledbank

elroy said:


> Are you saying you've always said (1) but find that (2) makes more sense?


It makes sense that some people would innovate to avoid three unstressed syllables. Someone mentioned a secondary stress. It has no such secondary stress for me, but look at 'necessary': no-one* says this with three unstressed syllables. Rather, the third syllable either is omitted or gets secondary stress.

* with the usual caveat that 'no-one' means I'm guessing based on my experience, and I'm someone who's never heard anyone in any kind of language class say 'participle' with the stress on the second syllable, so I'm staring hard and suspiciously at my experience now


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## heypresto

Edinburgher said:


> I wonder what really drove it. Could it be the verb *participate*?


As I was reading your post #32 I was thinking to myself "participate", and then at the end, hey presto!   

And then I thought "municiple".

I dunno . . .


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## Loob

Maybe the verb "participate"; maybe, too, the noun "participant". But I think etb's right that a key driver is simply the 'three unstressed syllables in a row'.

(Why did my spellcheck change "unstressed" to "undressed"?)


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## Edinburgher

Hmm.  I don't really go for the three naked syllables theory, because for me, the middle one of the three is at least partly dressed.


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## Loob

Edinburgher said:


> Hmm.  I don't really go for the three naked syllables theory, because for me, the middle one of the three is at least partly dressed.


You said earlier that's the pronunciation you learnt at high school in Canada.  I think the traditional BrE "first syllable stress" version has three unstressed syllables - which could explain why the stress has shifted.


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## Edinburgher

Loob said:


> I think the traditional BrE "first syllable stress" version has three unstressed syllables


That's what I'm not convinced of, my point being that if three unstressed syllables really do feel so unnatural, then it seems a more obvious, almost subconscious, remedy to simply hand one of them a fig leaf give one of them some secondary stress.  It needn't be much.  Even if it's virtually subliminal, the pressure to shift would be much reduced.

Does, say, the word _understudy_ have three unstressed syllables for you, or do you hear a secondary stress on "stu"? How about with the other words mentioned earlier {_serviceable_, _acupuncture_, _interloper_, _alternator_ and _generator_}?  Why should _participle_ be (or have been) any different?


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## heypresto

I fear you are looking for logic and consistency in English. - something we often warn learners against.   

But seriously, I do think it's from 'participate', and 'participant', and, I'd say, 'municipal.'


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## lingobingo

Far too long a thread to read all of it, sorry, but my answer would have been that there is no right or wrong. Some words are pronounced in different ways by different people – and even by the same person, randomly using whichever version is the first to come into their head on that occasion. It’s really no big deal. No need to stamp, or even stomp, on your phone over it. 

But I see that Lexico has audio clips of both pronunciations of *participle* in its UK dictionary, and only PARdiciple in its US one (yes, the T sounds like a D, which is different again from the UK variant).

Since the other example that screamed to mind was *controversy*, I checked out Lexico’s audio clips for that too. And lo and behold…


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## Edinburgher

lingobingo said:


> But I see that Lexico has audio clips of both pronunciations of *participle* in its UK dictionary


Are you sure? When I look, I can only see one.  It has both printed IPA pronunciations, but only one audio clip (namely the one corresponding to first syllable main stress).

The comparison with _controversy_ is apt, because one might expect that those who say PARtiss would also say CONtrov, and those who say parTISS would also say conTROV. But I say PAR and TROV. Am I weird? {Don't answer that.  I only meant: Am I unusual in this respect?}


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## heypresto

The Collins lady pronounces it the correct way same way as me. 

But I bet you won't be able to listen to her pronunciation of the plural without spitting out your coffee.


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## lingobingo

Edinburgher said:


> Are you sure? When I look, I can only see one.  It has both printed IPA pronunciations, but only one audio clip (namely the one corresponding to first syllable main stress).


How bizarre. You’re right. Either they’ve just changed it, or I’m going mad! (Both are possible.)  But the single audio clip on the UK site is now very odd. It doesn’t sound right to me, even for the pronunciation with stress on the first syllable.

Suspecting that Lexico had indeed just changed its entry, I thought I’d check the (still British-run?) OED, and there not just 2 but 3 British pronunciations are given, with audio clips, but only one US one.


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