# Etymology of carbine, carabin, carabinieri etc



## artion

The etymology of “carbine” (gun) and the related words (carabine, carabiniers, carabinieri etc)  reproduced around the web  is  vague and derive the words  from various origins, from the reasonable Italian “calabrina” (a type of  light  cannons) (in OED) to the improbable “scarabeus beetle”.  
I think is  worthy  commenting briefly only on the first:
The etymon from “calabrina” is not very convincing because:


Calabrin(a)     needs some transformation to become carabin and the likes.
The     usual name of that cannon was “colubrina” and not “calabrina”     (Americus Vespucius, late 15th     c., cited here     [http://books.google.gr/books?id=lUI...&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false]     (p. 365, footnote 12)), and here     [http://www.cetaria.it/eng/the_towers_around_scopello.html] and     [http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/F034/03/Text.htm] etc. which is further     distant from “carabine”. 
The     root of the same word  (calabr-) is conveniently used to etymologize      “calibre”, which sounds reasonable, but we have a case     “one-fits-all”.
Etymologists     accept as an axiom that the soldiers known as "carabins" in France got     their name from the gun, but do not provide any evidence on that.      If it is so, it is peculiar that this type of soldiers appears     almost simultaneously in the 16th     century in Italy, France, Spain, England and other countries, where     small arms like carbine were already known under various names as     arquebuse, muskets, serpents etc. 
Few inspired etymologists with wider knowledge on classic languages, bypassing complicated word transformations, see the obvious link between carabin/carbine and the Gr. _carabos_ (ship and crab) but they cannot explain this adequately.    
Hensleigh Wedgwood in his “_Dictionary of English etymology_”  [http://books.google.gr/books?id=GXI...&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false] explains the crab origin through the shape of the firelock (  p. 300). But firelocks existed also on other guns well before carbine.  
G. W. Lemon in his “English etymology”  (1783) http://books.google.gr/books?id=zoY...&resnum=6&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false under the word “carbine”  recognizes that carabos or crab “_seems to be a strange explanation … there must therefore be some other reason why it received that name, which could not arise from its shape or figure”.  _ 

So, there is a missing link in the history of the word, at least in the English literature. This missing link is found, however, in the writings of a greek author (Sathas Konstantinos, see reference) who studied the medieval soldiers from Greece and Balkans who served in the 16th c. under Italian, French and Spaniard armies (stratioti, estradiotes, carabins etc).  
The origin of carabin/carbine is simple and straight from the “carabos” (κάραβος), meaning ship and crab in old and modern Greek.  This word is also used in latin and other languages (e.g. Spanish caravela), with the Gr. Letter B (beta) transliterated to B or V. In middle and modern Gr.  the seamen were known as  “carabini” or similar variations, a word that appears also as a name (carabitinos)  from the 11th century ( Ch. Stavrakos,_Die byzantinischen Bleisiegel mit Familiennamen aus der Sammlung des Numismatischen Museums Athen,_Wiesbaden 2000 , (Mainzer Veroffentlichungen zur Byzantinistik) (German Edition)) till today.

These aforementioned “stratioti” were not only foot soldiers but real marines, moving around the Mediterranean  by ships. They formed the first light cavalry of Western Europe and in France (and possibly in Italy) were called carabins, i.e. “seamen”. Their weaponry included the short musket which was also named car(a)bine.  

Naming the gun after the gunmen (those being named after something else) seems to be rare in history but is not forbiden. I found these cases: 
 

Lumbarda (a medieval cannon) assumed to originate from Lombardi (Lombardians). This word was used mainly in the Balkans so  I was able to find it only in the Gr. Wiktionary http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B4%CE%B1
 

The     “Kentucky rifle” was named  after the “Kentucky riflemen” of     the 1812-1815 anglo-american war or after the “The Hunters of     Kentucky”.
The     “Poacher”  gun     [http://www.emmacustomrifles.co.uk/catSHOTGUNS.htm].         
 What do you think about this etymology of carbine, carabinieri etc?

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*Reference: *
Sathas K. (1885)* ''*Hellenes stratiotai en tei dysei kai he anagennesis tes hellenikes taktikes (Athens, 1885). Originally published in the journal “Hestia”.(Greek soldiers in the West and the revival of Greek tactics,'' in "Hestia", vol. 19, No 492, p. 371, in Greek.).  Reprinted in 1986* [*


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## infinite sadness

Gli italiani pensano che derivi dalla parola araba KARAB, che significa "arma da fuoco".
Se qualcuno conosce l'arabo potrebbe confermare?


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## ᴚǝǝƶɐʍɐɈ

First of all I agree that a derivation of the French word within French from French "escarrabin", a “scarabeus beetle” is "improbable" as Artion says. It is, as etymonline.com puts it, a "far-fetched theory".

At the French etymology site CNRTL.fr/etymologie/carabin they say French "carabin" is first attested around 1585, and has uncertain origin, but they go on to say that this "scarrabin" « ensevelisseur des pestiférés » is the leading hypothesis. As a step to debunk that idea, Archive.org has a downloadable book "Glossaire archéologique du Moyen Age et de la Renaissance" which has lots of historical quotes about old military terminology (www.archive.org/stream/glossairearcheol01gayv#page/56/mode/1up). On page 56, under its entry for "argoulets", there's a quote written in French in 1548 saying light cavalry carrying musketry are called "carabins" by the Spanish (and not by the French, mind you). On page 277, under its entry for "carabin", the book's compiler says the French word "carabin" is of Spanish origin and came into use in French in the late 16th in replacement of the earlier word "argoulets".

Skeat (1888) says: QUOTE: Carbine.... In Tudor [or Stuart] English, it means (not a gun, but) a man armed with a carbine, a musketeer. In this sense, the plural carabins is in Richard Knolles' year 1603 book "History of the Turks", 1186, K (Nares) ; and carbine in John Fletcher's year 1615 play "Wit without Money". French carabin is defined in Cotgrave's 1611 dictionary as "an arquebuzier, armed with a murrian and breast-plate and serving on horse-back". Modern French carabine [-- not the same as the French carabin --] was introduced from Italian carabina, a small gun, in the 16th century (Brachet) ; but this does not at all account for carabin as used by Cotgrave. I say the word is corrupted from Old French calabrien, calabrin, a carbineer, sort of light-armed soldier ; Roquefort. This word originally meant a man who worked one of the old war-engines, and was afterwards transferred to a man armed with a weapon of a newer make. The word is from Old French calabre, a war-engine used in besieging towns..... ENDQUOTE

Artion makes several good points about the weakness of that “calabrina” etymology that Skeat likes.

But a big weakness in Artion's own proposition in my view is that is doesn't give adequate historical details about about the mercenaries from Albania and Greece who were in the armies in Italy, Spain, and France in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, and who were called "stratioti" in Italian. Artion merely asserts: _"They were not only foot soldiers but real marines, moving around the Mediterranean by ships. They formed the first light cavalry of Western Europe; and in France (and possibly in Italy) were called carabins, i.e. “seamen”. Their weaponry included the short musket which was also named car(a)bine."_ Here are some questions about that assertion. (1) Quoting Wikipedia: "The stradioti used javelins, as well as swords, maces, crossbows and daggers.... Their armor was initially a simply mail hauberk, but became heavier as years passed." The "car(a)bin" word is intrinsically connected with muskets from its earliest attestations, as far as I can see. At exactly what time did the stratioti start using muskets, or arquebuses, or any kind of musketry? (2) The Albanian & Greek mercenaries were footsoldiers, at least early on. The "car(a)bin" word is connected with cavalary from its earliest attestations, as far as I can see. Artion has provided us with no attestations of the word "car(a)bin" to mean footsoldiers. Nor cavalary either. Nor dates of attestation. Until I see those attestations I'd regard it as very unlikely that any army of footsoliders and "seamen" would switch to being horsemen. An army of horses is a different kettle of fish from an infantry, and to turn the one into the other would involve a lot more than buying horses. (3) I believe we need them to be up on horseback historically before the "car(a)bin" word meaning cavalry. It is too late if, for example, they didn't get up on horseback until after the 1548 attestation given above; i.e. if the Albanian & Greek mercenaries were called "car(a)bin" at some point but the attestations for that are not antecedent, it's no good. More precisely, we need to know what is the first attestation for the Albanian & Greek mercenaries being called "car(a)bin"? What exactly were their weapons at the time?


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## artion

This is one of the etymologies hypothesised, but others translate this arabic word as "destruction" (http://www.aftertheprophet.com/excerpt.html). 
Encyclopedia Britanica gives this origin as "doubtful":
http://books.google.gr/books?id=HKgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA262&lpg=PA262&dq=arab+word+karab&source=bl&ots=pcEh3YQiFz&sig=6Tc_JakjqV2JOUevCOZrSUQ0wdY&hl=el&ei=98UVTamjOMWy8gOTpLWHBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=arab%20word%20karab&f=false
History doesn't support the appearance of this word in 16th c. France, Italy etc.


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## Frank06

Hi,



> What do you think about this etymology of carbine, carabinieri etc?


The only sane conclusion is "origins unknown".

But...



> Etymologists accept as an axiom that the soldiers known as "carabins" in France got their name from the gun,


That axiom seems not to be accepted in the 8 _modern_ dictionaries I checked out. So where do you get it from, and why do you call it an axiom? I don't understand this blatant misrepresentation. 
By the way, I prefer modern etymological dictionaries over mid 19th and late 18th century ones.


> to the improbable “scarabeus beetle”


Why dismissing this out of hand?
I fail to see what's improbable about it. Which is _not _the same as saying that this explanation is _thee_ correct one.


> see the _obvious link_ between carabin/carbine and the Gr. carabos (ship and crab) but they cannot explain this adequately.


If they cannot explain it adequately, then it's not very obvious, is it? Besides, where does your bias come from, since you're calling it "the obvious link"? What's your agenda? 

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands
(paraphrased and shortened) Loan from French carabin (light cavalerist, 1583-90). The reference to the person is probably older, the name for the type of gun is probably derived from the person who carried it.
The origins are unknown. It could come from a curse word, derived from Middle French (e)scarrabin (somebodies who carries corpses during the Plague, 1521), originally an Occitan word which may be related to escarbot < Latijn scarabaeus.

A similar explanation (also including 'probably', 'could', 'may be') can be found back in other Dutch, German (Kluge) and French (Rey) dictionaries. They seem to make good case (especially Rey) that the name of the gun is derrived from a reference to a person (light cavalerist), and not the other way round, so contrary to the so-called axiom you seem to have invented.


Besides, I am not a weapon expert, but I have the impression that a colubrine (meaning 'snake-shaped', L colubrinus < coluber, serpent) is not he same type of weapon as a carabine. Carrying  these on horses doesn't strike me as a feature of light cavalerists...


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## artion

Thanks everybody for the feedback. I remind you that this is not my own theory but comes from a Greek historian who studied the stratioti, argoulets etc. What is mine is the mistake that "stratioti were footsoldiers". To be precise, they were light cavalry properly equiped to dismount at any moment and fight on foot as well. Actyally, one of their favourite tactics was the ambush. . This was their main difference from the typical european heavy armoured cavalry of M. Ages. I will read carefully the sources you provided in case I have missed something important, but I think none elucidates much the origin of the word. 
The "obvious" is the phonetic and spelling relation with Karabos, but the semantic connection is not there unless we put in the frame the "marines". I did not want to post a long historical essay, but if you like the topic I will soon add some information on the sea-worthness of those all-around soldiers. I will include the amazing story of a Greek engineer-stratioti who helped the Venetians to carry a whole gallera from the sea into a north Italian Lake during a local war!
Finally, looking for the etymology of a portable firearm we cannot go much earlier than 1500 because there about was the infancy of small small firing guns. 
Happy new peaceful Year.


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## Frank06

artion said:


> I will read carefully the sources you provided in case I have missed something important, but I think none elucidates much the origin of the word.


So, it seems that your mind is already set, that you already have decided. Then why this discussion?


> The "obvious" is the phonetic and spelling relation with Karabos


It's obvious that karabos and car(a)bine have a k/c, r and b in common, but that's about it. There is nothing in your explanation that sheds a light on the etymology. Nothing is elucidated.


> I did not want to post a long historical essay, but if you like the topic I will soon add some information on the sea-worthness of those all-around soldiers.


I think we'd be better off with a linguistic essay, rather than a vague and slightly off topic reference to the works of an obscure 19th century historian (and to a 18th century "etymological" dictionary) or with giving a reply to ᴚǝǝƶɐʍɐɈ's questions raised in post 3 (last paragraph).



> Finally, looking for the etymology of a portable firearm we cannot go much earlier than 1500 because there about was the infancy of small small firing guns.


Unless the word for the carriers of that portable firearm was, how can I say, transferred to the weapon.


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## artion

Frank, I did not apply here for a degree in Linguistics and I don't see the point of your stricture. I will comment only on your last remarks adding that you cannot separate human history from words history:
Carabins (soldiers) and carbine (gun) appear early in 16th c. The various stratioti came to the West in late 15th c. after the capture of Constantinople and other Levant places by the Turks. This helps to understand the etymology, I hope.
Sathas may be obscure to non-Greek speakers but this doesn't mean he is not credible. I suppose Plato was also obscure to non-latin speakers in your country till the period we are talking about.


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## Frank06

artion said:


> Frank, I did not apply here for a degree in Linguistics and if you are a professor you may keep your stricture for school.


I just pointed out that there is nothing in your posts so far that's convincing. What's wrong with asking for sound and solid arguments?  


> Carabins (soldiers) and carbine (gun) appear early in 16th c. The various stratioti came to the West in late 15th c. after the capture of Constantinople and other Levant places by the Turks. This helps the etymology, I hope.


You still haven't made clear in which way. You still have not responded to the questions raised in post 3.


> Sathas may be obscure to non-Greek speakers but this doesn't mean anything. I suppose Plato was also obscure to non-latin speakers in your country till the period we are talking about.


Comparing an obscure 19th century historian with Plato is a bit off the wall. Besides, what I learned from Plato is that (1) a dialogue is a better way to gain some understanding than a soliloqui and (2) answering questions (e.g. the ones asked in post 3) could be a better way to gain some insights than ignoring them.

And reading this and this, both containing familiar and blatant misrepresentations, makes me think that I am not the only one with comments and objections.


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## Angelo di fuoco

artion said:


> The etymology of “carbine” (gun) and the related words (carabine, carabiniers, carabinieri etc)  reproduced around the web  is  vague and derive the words  from various origins, from the reasonable Italian “calabrina” (a type of  light  cannons) (in OED) to the improbable “scarabeus beetle”.
> I think is  worthy  commenting briefly only on the first:
> The etymon from “calabrina” is not very convincing because:
> 
> 
> Calabrin(a)     needs some transformation to become carabin and the likes.
> The     usual name of that cannon was “colubrina” and not “calabrina”     (Americus Vespucius, late 15th     c., cited here     [http://books.google.gr/books?id=lUI...&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false]     (p. 365, footnote 12)), and here     [http://www.cetaria.it/eng/the_towers_around_scopello.html] and     [http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/F034/03/Text.htm] etc. which is further     distant from “carabine”.
> The     root of the same word  (calabr-) is conveniently used to etymologize      “calibre”, which sounds reasonable, but we have a case     “one-fits-all”.
> Etymologists     accept as an axiom that the soldiers known as "carabins" in France got     their name from the gun, but do not provide any evidence on that.      If it is so, it is peculiar that this type of soldiers appears     almost simultaneously in the 16th     century in Italy, France, Spain, England and other countries, where     small arms like carbine were already known under various names as     arquebuse, muskets, serpents etc.



Spanish "culebra" means "serpent, French "couleuvre" (non-venimous serpent) and "couleuvrine" (light cannon), Latin "colubridae" (family of which this serpents make part)...


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## artion

Thanks Angelo. 
Apart from soldiers and guns, this word is also used as "_carabiner_" for a  rock-climbing gear. http://www.mrcarabiner.com/carabiners/

This one certainly has nothing in common with old cannons and hardly with serpents (unless we think of the theosophic snake eating its tail). I think it is possibly closer to the origin I posted above, either because of its distant resemplance to a crab's claw or because it descents from a gear used on old sail ships. But this is only my personal opinion.


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## Maroseika

infinite sadness said:


> Gli italiani pensano che derivi dalla parola araba KARAB, che significa "arma da fuoco".
> Se qualcuno conosce l'arabo potrebbe confermare?


One Russian dictionary of the 19 century also derivates it from Arab _qarab _- weapon and mentions Turkish _karabuli _- shooter.


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## Maroseika

Hello.
Looking for the etymology of "carabine" we encountered an explanation that it originates from Arab _qarab _- to shoot (loaned not later than 16 century).
Can anybody confirm this version?


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## ancalimon

Maroseika said:


> One Russian dictionary of the 19 century also derivates it from Arab _qarab _- weapon and mentions Turkish _karabuli _- shooter.



Never heard of a karabuli in Turkish. It simply is a sentence which translates to "he/she is finding, seeking land" which is unrelated.

Only these that sound similar.

xarabö - qarabö - karabö: a beetle
karaböcü: a beetle

But "ARA" means distance, length, openness, between, to split, to break, a hole, spacing, measurement, to move between something, sometime between two moments, testicles and penis, to seek, to look for, 

AR is the suffix that changes a verb into an object. (for example yürü: to walk   yürür: walker (the one who walks))

AR sometimes makes something plural. (birer (many ones), ikişer (many twos), the plural suffix "lar - ler")

Kara, Qara means related to Earth, land.  (For example "karakuvvetleri ordusu" : "landforce army")

Kara, Qara also means black but it seems unrelated.

About Arabic "qarap" meaning weapon.

I know it sounds strange but in Turkish "yarak" means "penis", but in Azeri Turkish "yarak" means weapon.


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## إسكندراني

I'm unfamiliar with this usage; usually the root (q r b) refers to 'near' and related concepts. It might be archaic though; I did find a definition which gives 'qaraba' as meaning 'speedy'. Thought I'd mention that though I'm sure others on here can give much better answers!
http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=قرب#8
قَرَبٌ (القاموس المحيط)
 					 						  قَرَبٌ تَقْتاقٌ وتُقاتِقُ ومُتَقْتِقٌ: سريعٌ.
  والتَّقْتَقَةُ: الحَرَكَةُ، وسَيْرٌ عَنِيفٌ.
  وتَقْتَقَ من الجَبَلِ: وَقَعَ،
  و~ عَيْنُه: غارتْ.


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## Maroseika

Thank you for information, إسكندراني.
Regretfully I cannot read Arab. Could you please translate the text after the link?

By the way I came across Hebrew קרב - battle. Is it relevant? Is there anything in Arab with this stem meaning a battle? Maybe etymologically it is connected with (q r b) - to approach > to collide with > battle.


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## Mahaodeh

I don't think that qarab ever had the meaning of shooting. The closest I can think of is the noun qeraab, a satchel or container that the solider would keep his arrows in.


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## Maroseika

Mahaodeh said:


> I don't think that qarab ever had the meaning of shooting. The closest I can think of is the noun qeraab, a satchel or container that the solider would keep his arrows in.


You mean quiver?

As for shooting, maybe there was only a sense of shooter < warrior < battle?


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## rayloom

I agree with Maha.

I did a google search which eventually brought me back to WR, and to a post by Maroseika himself 



Maroseika said:


> One Russian dictionary of the 19 century also derivates it from Arab _qarab _- weapon and mentions Turkish _karabuli _- shooter.



in http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2016498

I think the Turkish origin of the word seems to be the closest. Maybe Turkish borrowed it somehow from Arabic, but the meaning developed that way only in Turkish.
I think it's worthwhile posting the question in the Turkish forum, maybe someone might be able to make the connection, or at least point us in the right path.


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## Maroseika

According to my source Turkish word originates from Arab, so no need to look its etymology into Turkish. Besides, the time this dictionary was created, Turkish was sometimes applied to Crimaen-Tartar. So maybe karabuli is from there.
By the way, if Turkish *karabuli is from  Arab, what might mean suffix - uli?

As for the Arab word, the only thing I managed to find is Hebrew קרב - battle which could develop from קרוב (near - cf. Arab (q r b) - near) > to approach > swoop > battle.


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## Maroseika

Hello.
Searching for the etymology of the English _carabine _I encountered one Russian dictionary of the 19 century  derivating it from Arab _qarab _- weapon thru Turkish and mentioning in this regard Turkish _karabuli _- shooter.         
_Carabine _appeared in Italian and French in the 16th century.

Can anybody approve this hypothesis about Turkish _qarabuli _of the 16th century?

As for the Arab word, the only thing I managed to find is Hebrew קרב - battle which could develop from קרוב (near - cf. Arab (q r b) - near) > to approach > swoop > battle.
So Turkish word could mean not only a shooter, but a warrior or rider or something relating to this. According to one of the theories, primary sense of the French _carabine _was not shooter, but a rider or even 'horsed scout' (after all, carabine is a short gun of a rider).


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## Maroseika

rayloom said:


> I think it's worthwhile posting the question in the Turkish forum, maybe someone might be able to make the connection, or at least point us in the right path.


Thanks, I shall try my luck there.


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## Hakan D

I've never heard of a word karabuli but on the other hand as you have mentioned battle and no research yielded that it exists, there's a turkish loan word though from arabic ''harp'' (battle). According to Nişanciyan etymological dictionary in Arabic it is  حرب

_ḥarba _in Arabic supposed to mean also a short spear and in Hebrew  _χəreb _supposed to mean a sword.


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## Maroseika

Thanks, Hakan D!

This is highly interesting, epsecially regarding a short spear. But what exactly Turkish word you mean that originates from Arabiс _ḥarba?_


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## er targyn

It's harp, Ottoman harb.


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## artion

> ... in Turkish "yarak" means "penis", but in Azeri Turkish "yarak" means weapon.



Freud would love that.


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## Maroseika

I found Turkish _harbe _- dart, short spear; _harbi _- ramrod and _harp _- war.
So you think they all relate to Arabic (q r b)?

Also _harbiyeli _- student in the military school.
This one resembles *karabuli.


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## Maroseika

Looks like I found some evidences in the benefit of the Arabic > Turkish versions with the kind assistance of the people from the corresponding forums:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=10096756&posted=1#post10096756
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2018433

Arabic (q r b) refers to 'near'
Hebrew cognate is קרוב ; and there is also  קרב - battle, which could develop in both Arab and Hebrew as near > to approach > swoop > battle.

Besides,_ ḥarba _in Arabic meant also a short spear and in Hebrew חרב _χəreb _supposed to mean a sword.                                                                                                                                  


Now Turkish has :
harp (Ottoman harb) - battle
harbe - dart, short spear and harbi - ramrod 
These two seem to be loaned from Arabic independently (taking into account Hebrew קרב and חרב - battle and sword).

Besides, there is Turkish _harbiyeli _- student in the military school. And this one resembles *karabuli that I found in my Russian dictionary of the 19th cent.


So maybe the source of the French _carabine _- short gun - was Turkish _harbe _- short spear, in assotiation with which short rider's gun was called - either by Turks or by the Frenchmen.
Just a wild guess, of course.


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## Josh_

Hi Maroseika,

I'm sure you've already looked, but I thought I'd mention that the entry at etymonline traces it back to Medieval Latin _Calabrinus_, (Calabrian, meaning "a rifle made in Calabria").


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## Ghabi

For what it's worth, according to _Supplement aux dictionnaires arabes_ by the 19th-century Dutch Arabist Reinhart Dozy, the word *قربانة *"carabine" (which is not found in the classical dictionaries) comes from the Roman languages (see this page, the entry in question located at the right bottom).


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## Maroseika

Since we are talking about the loans of the 16 century, so such secondary loans like the one you mentioned don't seem to have anything to do with it.


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## Maroseika

Sure, I saw it, but the very problem is that this version doesn't look reliable. Some sources, like I told before, lead to Arabic.


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## Ghabi

Maroseika said:


> Since we are talking about the loans of the 16 century, so such secondary loans like the one you mentioned don't seem to have anything to do with it.


I'm not sure what you mean by "secondary loans" ... do you mean *قربانة* is a re-loan from the Roman languages? So you're convinced that "carbine" came from Arabic and was later re-loaned into Arabic?

Honestly, I don't follow your arguments. You seem to suggest earlier that "carbine" come from the supposedly Arabic word _*qarab_ with the supposed meaning of  "weapon". But such a word with such a meaning doesn't exist, which seems to throw suspicion on the accuracy of the Russian dictionary you quote from.

Then you suggest that "carbine" come from Arabic _ḥarba _"spear" through Turkish. So do you thus refute the Russian dictionary you quote from earlier? You know /q/ and /ḥ/ are rather distinct consonants in Arabic, and there's little chance of confusing the two.

So which one do you choose, the will-o'-the-wispy _*qarab_, or the more convenient _ḥarba_? You can't have your cake and eat it too ...


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## Maroseika

> I'm not sure what you mean by "secondary loans" ... do you mean *قربانة* is a re-loan from the Roman languages? So you're convinced that "carbine" came from Arabic and was later re-loaned into Arabic?


Yes, according to the vesrion I'm talking about it is like that. With the only specification that from Arabic the word came to Turkish not in the sense of a _carbine_.


The idea is that _carbine _could be really loaned from Turkish - either a rider's rifle was called after Turkish short spear or this rifle name first appeared in the Turkish army for the same reason.
Turkish word could originate from _ḥarba - _Arabic cognate of Hebrew חרב - sword.
As for the initial /q/ and /ḥ/, of course they are different for many languages, but not for French lacking it in the beginning of the word. I don't know whether it is typical or at least possible to substitute /h/ to /k/ when loaning to French, but this is an assumption of this version.


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## rayloom

ḥarb (7arb) means war in Arabic. And ḥarba (7arbah) does mean spear. The first consonant, the 7aa, although different from q or k in Arabic, is sometimes realized as kh (or ch) in other languages, or by some non-native speakers or learners of Arabic.

I would refer to this thread:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1928509

Which shows that the Arabic word al-ḥarshaf (al-7arshaf) was borrowed into Spanish as alcarchofa_.
_


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## Maroseika

rayloom said:


> ḥarb (7arb) means war in Arabic. And ḥarba (7arbah) does mean spear.



Are ḥarba, ḥarb and the word meaning 'near" cognates in Arabic?


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## rayloom

Maroseika said:


> Are ḥarba, ḥarb and the word meaning 'near" cognates in Arabic?



No they're not related. They're from different roots.

q-r-b vs ḥ-r-b

You can imagine what might cause the confusion between both roots, they both share the latter 2 radicals.

But it seems that, if there was an Arabic origin, that it was from the root ḥ-r-b, where the ḥ changed due to borrowing into a c or k. The word might have been borrowed back into Arabic where the c, was changed into a q in Arabic, which would make more sense than changing the c into a ḥ!
The same way the Arabic word qamiiṣ (shirt) was borrowed from Romance chemise, camisia, camicia.


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## sokol

Moderator note:

Two new threads about the same topic have been posted in Arabic and Turkish forum, to attract native speakers of those languages. This has been accomplished; threads have been merged now as all those questions are, basically, about etymology.

Cheers
sokol
Moderator EHL


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## Maroseika

rayloom said:


> No they're not related. They're from different roots.
> 
> q-r-b vs ḥ-r-b
> 
> You can imagine what might cause the confusion between both roots, they both share the latter 2 radicals.
> 
> But it seems that, if there was an Arabic origin, that it was from the root ḥ-r-b, where the ḥ changed due to borrowing into a c or k. The word might have been borrowed back into Arabic where the c, was changed into a q in Arabic, which would make more sense than changing the c into a ḥ!
> The same way the Arabic word qamiiṣ (shirt) was borrowed from Romance chemise, camisia, camicia.


Thank you for your interesting comment.


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## artion

Maroseika said:


> Arabic (q r b) refers to 'near'
> Hebrew cognate is קרוב ; and there is also קרב - battle, which could develop in both Arab and Hebrew as near > to approach > swoop > battle.
> 
> Besides,_ ḥarba _in Arabic meant also a short spear and in Hebrew חרב _χəreb _supposed to mean a sword.


 
Although this *harba* doesn't sound much close to carabine, it  reminded me of the *harpoon*. I looked up the OED and found this:

_"harpoon: 1610s, from Fr. harpon, from O.Fr. harpon "cramp iron, clamp" (described as a mason's tool for fastening stones together), from harper "to grapple, grasp," possibly of Germanic origin, or from L. harpa- "hook" (cf. harpagonem "grappling hook," from Gk. *harpagon, related to *harpe "sickle*"). Earlier harping-iron (1590s). ...."_

The root harp- in Gr. is related to words meaning grab, steal, loot. I don't think it is of "Germanic origin" as OED has it. See *Harpy*, mentioned by Homer. 
I wonder if the Gr. _harp_- is related to the semitic _harba_. 

Anyway, it is good to see that all this guess-work around arabic-turkish-hebrew words did not receive any criticism as vitriolic as that on the karabos theory.


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## Maroseika

artion said:


> I wonder if the Gr. _harp_- is related to the semitic _harba_.


Looks rather unlikely, because this root is encountered in many IE languages:
Russian грабить - to rob, грести - to row, to rake
Lithuanian gróbti - to snatch
Ancient-Indian grābháyati - makes to snatch, grābhás - handful
Avestian gǝrǝwnāit - snatches

Unless of course both originate from one very ancient source.


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