# Punjabi and Persian/Urdu: ژاله



## panjabigator

Greetings,

I just learned that this word means 'dew' in Persian.  Any ideas as to how it became hail in Urdu?

Best,
PG


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## lcfatima

Does it mean "hail"? I thought it still meant "dew drops" in Urdu. It is a modern female name in Pakistan.


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## panjabigator

Have you heard the word <os> for 'dew drops' before?  I know we've had this convo before...somewhere...


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## BP.

_zhaala baarii_-ژالہ باری- does mean snowfall in Urdu. I can't elaborate on its Farsi meanings. Dew is called _shabnam_-شبنم- or as you mention _os_-اوس.


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## panjabigator

Is _shabnam_ a gender specific name or is it only a girl's name?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I just learned that this word means 'dew' in Persian.  Any ideas as to how it became hail in Urdu?
> 
> Best,
> PG



No, not really! But I'm working on it!

Due to lack of time I'm replying in one go.

ژاله in Farsi is <dew / frost> but in Urdu is <hail> and not dew or frost, which in Urdu-Hindi is _shabnam_ شبنم (Farsi) or _os_ اوس (Sanskrit); as BP and PG mention.

_zhaalah baarii_ ژالہ باری = hail storm, while برفباری = snowfall; برفباری و بارش= sleet (= hail); but we also have:  hail / sleet =ژالہ _zhaalah_ = اولے _oole_ (اولا _oolaa_ sing.) = hail stones.

... and PG, all the Shabnams I know are females!


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## Cilquiestsuens

PG, just an idea. There is a general principle which works 90 % .

All languages borrowing heavily from languages they consider as a cultural model (French for English, Farsi for Urdu) tend to retain better the original meaning of words than the language they borrow from !
Wouldn't have Urdu in this case kept the old meaning while in Farsi the meaning of that word has evolved ?

Languages which borrow tend to 'take a better care' of words they borrow (as they value more the words they borrow) than the original language... this is especially true for written or cultivated languages....


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## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Wouldn't have Urdu in this case kept the old meaning while in Farsi the meaning of that word has evolved ?


Great point, Cilqui.  Can any Persianphone confirm this ژاله?



> Languages which borrow tend to 'take a better care' of words they borrow (as they value more the words they borrow) than the original language... this is especially true for written or cultivated languages....



Perhaps, or they lend the word an entirely new meaning.  As I advance in my Persian studies, I'll have to pay closer attention to how words shift in meaning (or completely fall out of usage) between Urdu and Persian.


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## Cilquiestsuens

panjabigator said:


> Great point, Cilqui. Can any Persianphone confirm this ژاله?.


 

Well, actually this is just what we call in the subcontinent a tukka.... (a guess), based on my observations.




panjabigator said:


> Perhaps, or they lend the word an entirely new meaning. As I advance in my Persian studies, I'll have to pay closer attention to how words shift in meaning (or completely fall out of usage) between Urdu and Persian.


 
Yes, it is another possibility and this rather happens when 'illiterate' people borrow a word... and give birth to linguistic monsters (like Punjabi people borrowing the word *cover* in their Urdu for the *cap of a pen *to replace* Dhakkan*).... *pain ka kaavar kidhar rakkhaa hai?.*...

Well, two points to mention here: most of Urdu borrowings from Farsi are 'literate' ones. But God knows better for any individual case.

Plus, you are learning Farsi from Iran and this language was never in contact with Urdu. Another more archaic version of Farsi, the Dari or Darbari one was the language Urdu borrowed from. So if you want to compare, I guess you'll have to learn the classical language rather than the modern one... Anyways, i wish you all the best in your laudable effort to learn Farsi !!! Keep it up!


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> ....
> Can any Persianphone confirm this ژاله?


 
Yes! Here are two very reliable sources that give all the meanings!

Steingass
ژال zhāl, ژاله zhāla 
ژال _zhāl,_ ژاله _zhāla,_ Dew, hoar-frost; hail; vernal showers; an air-blown bag or bladder for swimming with; a log used as a raft in crossing a stream;--_zhāla bārīdan,_ To hail;--_zhālah e nargis,_ Tears. 


Hayyim 
ژاله _(zhaleh)_ Noun 1. Dew; also, hoar-frost. _Syn_. شبنم || 2. _R_. Hail [ = تگرگ]. 3. A shower. _Syn_. رگبار || 4. _R_. A bag or bladder used as an aid in swimming.


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## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Well, actually this is just what we call in the subcontinent a tukka.... (a guess), based on my observations.
> 
> Yes, it is another possibility and this rather happens when 'illiterate' people borrow a word... and give birth to linguistic monsters (like Punjabi people borrowing the word *cover* in their Urdu for the *cap of a pen *to replace* Dhakkan*).... *pain ka kaavar kidhar rakkhaa hai?.*...
> 
> Well, two points to mention here: most of Urdu borrowings from Farsi are 'literate' ones. But God knows better for any individual case.
> 
> Plus, you are learning Farsi from Iran and this language was never in contact with Urdu. Another more archaic version of Farsi, the Dari or Darbari one was the language Urdu borrowed from. So if you want to compare, I guess you'll have to learn the classical language rather than the modern one... Anyways, i wish you all the best in your laudable effort to learn Farsi !!! Keep it up!



Right, I too suspected that a lot of the borrowings came from Dari and not Iran.  As it is, the connection to Persian is via that route, so it makes sense that Urdu's lexicon and pronunciation follows in suit.

Thanks for the well wishes!



Faylasoof said:


> Yes! Here are two very reliable sources that give all the meanings!
> 
> Steingass
> ژال zhāl, ژاله zhāla
> ژال _zhāl,_ ژاله _zhāla,_ Dew, hoar-frost; hail; vernal showers; an air-blown bag or blad- der for swimming with; a log used as a raft in crossing a stream;--_zhāla bārīdan,_ To hail;--_zhālah e nargis,_ Tears.
> 
> 
> Hayyim
> ژاله _(zhaleh)_ Noun 1. Dew; also, hoat-frost. _Syn_. شبنم || 2. _R_. Hail [ = تگرگ]. 3. A shower. _Syn_. رگبار || 4. _R_. A bag or bladder used as an aid in swimming.



Thanks for this!


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## panjabigator

Just discovered that some people also say "trah" (rising tone, perhaps) for 'dew' in Punjabi. We typically use that word for "thirst" in my house. Can any Punjabiphone confirm?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Just discovered that some people also say "trah" (rising tone, perhaps) for 'dew' in Punjabi. We typically use that word for "thirst" in my house. Can any Punjabiphone confirm?


 

*No, the word is 'trel" (rhyming with the English word "trail") for dew and "tre" (with tone) for thirst.*


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## panjabigator

QURESHPOR said:


> *No, the word is 'trel" (rhyming with the English word "trail") for dew and "tre" (with tone) for thirst.*



I've heard the former without the final "l". Would you say that, in your neck of the woods, "trel/treh" is more common that "os"?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> I've heard the former without the final "l". Would you say that, in your neck of the woods, "trel/treh" is more common that "os"?



*I would say that in my and your "nick of the woods" the word is trel.

http://www.advancedcentrepunjabi.org/pedic/default.aspx

I have never heard "os" being used in Punjabi. It is used in Urdu (as well as shabnam) only.*


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