# Los alumnos tendrán que hacerlo otra vez



## flicg

"Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que hacerlo otra vez en septiembre."  I thought this was in the passive voice, but my online course marked it as in the active voice.  Is the first verb in the passive voice and the second active or are they both active - and is the future tense always an active voice?


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## Agró

Both are active voice.

Passive in Spanish takes the auxiliary verb "ser" (_be_), just like in English.

All tenses can be passive. Future too.

The film *will be shown *tomorrow.
La película _*será emitida*_ mañana.


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## flicg

Thank you.


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## Sendro Páez

Please, note that, technically speaking, passive voice does not exist in Spanish —verbs show inflection in person, number, time, aspect and mood, but not in voice. All verbs are to be considered active.

Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. The kind of message the provided sentence conveys is not rarely worded using a periphrastic passive construction. The alternative "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre" sounds natural to me. This is possible because _suspender_ may bear two different meanings when talking about education. I guess this confusing double game is what made you, flicg, launch this thread.


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## flicg

@Sendro Páez First point noted, thanks.  

Second point:  I have seen no reference to two types of passive construction in the explanations I have read.   Do you mean your example is not the periphrastic kind? What is the other and could you give an example?

As to your last point, I can recognise understand and construct a passive sentence in English but do not seem to have the same ability in Spanish although it has been rapidly improving since starting this thread! I understand most of what I read in Spanish but suspect the problem is that my grasp of verb construction is not where I want it to be.


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## Reina de la Aldea

Sendro Páez said:


> Please, note that, technically speaking, passive voice does not exist in Spanish —verbs show inflection in person, number, time, aspect and mood, but not in voice. All verbs are to be considered active.


Sendro, this is at odds with everything I've learned and read about the passive voice in Spanish.  Could you please explain further what you mean by passive voice not technically existing and why all verbs are to be considered active?  I thank you.


Sendro Páez said:


> "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre"


Just to be clear, this is not a passive construction.  


flicg said:


> Los alumnos han suspendido el examen (The students have failed the exam)


This is a variation on the phrase given by the OP.  In the passive voice, the object (el examen) becomes the subject and the verb_ ser_ + past participle gets deployed just as _to be + _past participle does in English.  Finally, just as with English, we indicate who carries out the action with _by _or _por_:
_El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos _(The exam has been failed by the students)

Another example:  flicg está aprendiendo la voz pasiva (flicg is learning the passive voice in Spanish)
Now the object (la voz pasiva) becomes the subject to form the passive construction, and the present progressive form of _ser _gets deployed:
La voz pasiva está siendo aprendida por flicg (The passive voice is being learned by flicg)


Sendro Páez said:


> Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. The kind of message the provided sentence conveys is not rarely worded using a periphrastic passive construction.





flicg said:


> Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que hacerlo otra vez en septiembre. (The students that failed the exam will have to do it again in September)


Here the object of the action is "lo" (el examen) and the verb, "tendrán que hacer" is in future tense.  Making "el examen" the subject and deploying _ser_ + past participle, we get
El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido otra vez en septiembre (The exam will have to be done by the students who failed it again in September)


Sendro Páez said:


> Passive constructions, however, do exist, and there are two types of them in our language. T


I assume Sendro is speaking about the _se pasiva_ in addition to the passive form which I just explained.  That's another topic for another day/thread, a discussion of which being the subject of the above deleted posts


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## elprofe

Reina de la Aldea said:


> Sendro, this is at odds with everything I've learned and read about the passive voice in Spanish.  Could you please explain further what you mean by passive voice not technically existing and why all verbs are to be considered active?  I thank you.


Basically, he means that passive has nothing to do with verbs, but with voice.


Reina de la Aldea said:


> Just to be clear, this is not a passive construction.


What makes you think that "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen" is not a passive construction?


Reina de la Aldea said:


> This is a variation on the phrase given by the OP.  In the passive voice, the object (el examen) becomes the subject and the verb_ ser_ + past participle gets deployed just as _to be + _past participle does in English.  Finally, just as with English, we indicate who carries out the action with _by _or _por_:
> _El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos _(The exam has been failed by the students)
> 
> Another example:  flicg está aprendiendo la voz pasiva (flicg is learning the passive voice in Spanish)
> Now the object (la voz pasiva) becomes the subject to form the passive construction, and the present progressive form of _ser _gets deployed:
> La voz pasiva está siendo aprendida por flicg (The passive voice is being learned by flicg)
> 
> 
> Here the object of the action is "lo" (el examen) and the verb, "tendrán que hacer" is in future tense.  Making "el examen" the subject and deploying _ser_ + past participle, we get
> El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido otra vez en septiembre (The exam will have to be done by the students who failed it again in September)
> 
> I assume Sendro is speaking about the _se pasiva_ in addition to the passive form which I just explained.  That's another topic for another day/thread, a discussion of which being the subject of the above deleted posts


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## Reina de la Aldea

elprofe said:


> What makes you think that "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen" is not a passive construction?


A skeletal version (subj verb obj) of the sentence "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre" is "Los alumnos tendrán que repetir el examen en septiembre". Compare the passive "El examen tendrá que ser repetido por los alumnos en septiembre".


elprofe said:


> Basically, he means that passive has nothing to do with verbs, but with voice.


I'm still bewildered.  I hope to hear directly from the horse's mouth


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## elprofe

mmm what about:
_· Los profesores han suspendido a los alumnos
· Los alumnos han sido suspendidos (por los profesores)_
The latter is a passive sentence, right? What do you make of it?

"que han sido suspendidos" is a subordinate clause, but it's still in passive voice, isn't it?


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## Reina de la Aldea

elprofe said:


> mmm what about:
> _· Los profesores han suspendido a los alumnos
> · Los alumnos han sido suspendidos (por los profesores)  _
> The latter is a passive sentence, right?   What do you make of it?
> 
> "que han sido suspendidos" is a subordinate clause, but it's still in passive voice, isn't it?


The subordinate clause "que han sido suspendidos" is an adjectival clause modifying "los alumnos".  In the active-voice sentence that it is a part of, "tendrán que hacer" is the transitive verb.


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## flicg

So far, what I understand is this:

a.  Active:  "Los alumnos que han suspendido el examen tendrán que repetirlo en septiembre."
b.  Passive:  El examen ha sido suspendido por los alumnos
c. Passive: El examen tendrá que ser hecho por los alumnos que lo han suspendido...
d.  ?Passive "Los alumnos que han sido suspendidos en el examen tendrán que repetirlo" 
I can only think this is passive because when I try to think of an active alternative I come up with a).  But I am suspicious becasue being failed by someone and failing something are different things and yet both seem active.


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## Reina de la Aldea

You are correct on every score 
(d) and (a) are just slightly different sentences, both active voice.

Passive voice version of (d):
El examen tendrá que ser repetido por los alumnos [que han sido suspendidos en él/que lo han suspendido]


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## Agró

flicg said:


> a).  But I am suspicious becasue being failed by someone and failing something are different things and yet both seem active.


_Being failed by someone_ is passive.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Lo de "suspender/ser suspendido" es bastante regional e idiomático. 

La idea es que, a un alumno que no obtiene una calificación suficiente en un examen, se le da una oportunidad más en el futuro de ser examinado. El examen se "aplaza" o "suspende".
Si el alumno agotó todas sus chances de pasar el examen con éxito, el alumno está "reprobado".

En Argentina al menos, el alumno "es aplazado". No "aplaza" ni "suspende" nada. Lo cual tiene sentido, porque no es un proceso que controle directamente el alumno.

"Suspender" se aplica más (al menos en mi experiencia) a castigar al alumno por faltas disciplinarias, impidiéndole que vaya al colegio: "Me suspendieron/he sido suspendido 2 días por golpear a un compañero".
De nuevo, el alumno "es suspendido", no "suspende" nada.

Por todo lo cual, lo de "el alumno suspende un examen" me parece un uso causativo muy forzado e idiomático, que me hace doler los ojos cada vez que lo encuentro. No sé en dónde se habla así.


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## Agró

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Por todo lo cual, lo de "el alumno suspende un examen" me parece un uso causativo muy forzado e idiomático, que me hace doler los ojos cada vez que lo encuentro. No sé en dónde se habla así.


En una península al suroeste de Europa.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Agró said:


> En una península al suroeste de Europa.


Con razón "suspenden" tanto.


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## elprofe

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Lo de "suspender/ser suspendido" es bastante regional e idiomático.
> 
> La idea es que, a un alumno que no obtiene una calificación suficiente en un examen, se le da una oportunidad más en el futuro de ser examinado. El examen se "aplaza" o "suspende".
> Si el alumno agotó todas sus chances de pasar el examen con éxito, el alumno está "reprobado".
> 
> En Argentina al menos, el alumno "es aplazado". No "aplaza" ni "suspende" nada. Lo cual tiene sentido, porque no es un proceso que controle directamente el alumno.
> 
> "Suspender" se aplica más (al menos en mi experiencia) a castigar al alumno por faltas disciplinarias, impidiéndole que vaya al colegio: "Me suspendieron/he sido suspendido 2 días por golpear a un compañero".
> De nuevo, el alumno "es suspendido", no "suspende" nada.
> 
> Por todo lo cual, lo de "el alumno suspende un examen" me parece un uso causativo muy forzado e idiomático, que me hace doler los ojos cada vez que lo encuentro. No sé en dónde se habla así.


En España, *suspender* se usa como *fail* en inglés:
_He suspendido el examen, voy a suspender el examen..._

Tanto el alumno como el profesor pueden ser los sujetos de una oración activa con el verbo *suspender*
_El profe de mates me ha suspendido
He suspendido matemáticas

*Aplazar *_se usa como _*posponer*, _nunca como_ *suspender:*
Ojalá aplacen el examen, necesito unos días más para estudiar._


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## flicg

Agró said:


> _Being failed by someone_ is passive.


Oh dear. I wonder if I will ever get the hang of this! Ok. But failing someone must be active.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

¿Qué cosa no se entiende todavía?


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## Artifacs

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Con razón "suspenden" tanto.



Yo diría que siempre.


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## flicg

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> ¿Qué cosa no se entiende todavía?


If you mean me, I think I've got it now thanks.... although, I've been thinking that for a while & then something comes along to overturn [correct] my assumption!


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## Reina de la Aldea

flicg said:


> If you mean me, I think I've got it now thanks.... although, I've been thinking that for a while & then something comes along to overturn [correct] my assumption!


You just need to see a lot of examples of passive constructions (e.g., use the search term _pasiva completa ejemplos_)_. _ Here are 30 examples for a start Warning: Each of these comprises two sentences in two different forms: the _pasiva completa o incompleta_ and the _se pasiva _or _se impersonal._  Right now, since you're just trying to get a hang of the _pasiva completa_, pay attention to the first of the two forms given for each example.  You can return to compare these to the _se _forms later when you take that on.  Good luck!


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## Reina de la Aldea

Agró said:


> En una península al suroeste de Europa.


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## flicg

@Reina de la Aldea Thank you.


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## Magazine

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Si el alumno agotó todas sus chances de pasar el examen con éxito, el alumno está "reprobado".


Eso será en tu pueblo, aquí decimos suspender. 
Y en español no se dice, "chances", sino posibilidades u oportunidades, _chances_ es una palabra inglesa.


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## Reina de la Aldea

flicg said:


> @Reina de la Aldea Thank you.


You're most welcome


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## Mister Draken

Magazine said:


> Eso será en tu pueblo, aquí decimos suspender.
> Y en español no se dice, "chances", sino posibilidades u oportunidades, _chances_ es una palabra inglesa.


Curioso, porque me he encontrado _chance_ en el DLE y encima pone que es de origen francés.


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## Reina de la Aldea

Y encima de eso, en México se interprete _chanza _así, o sea, como chance, y no es chanza 


> *chanza* _nf__MX, SV_ (oportunidad, chance)chance _n_  opportunity _n_ Aprovecha esta chanza; tal vez nunca vuelvas a tenerla.WR, chanza


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## Mister Draken

Reina de la Aldea said:


> Y encima de eso, en México se interprete _chanza _así, o sea, como chance, y no es chanza


Para no decirte que oportunidad es palabra latina (Etimologia : opportuno;). Y por las dudas, suspender también lo es: Etimologia : sospendere;


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