# por estarem justos e contratados



## Porteño

Good evening,

I trust this will be the last question for today. I would very much appreciate it if someone could provide me with a good English translation of this phrase. I've searched the WEb and the 'translated' examples are merely laughable and bear no relation to the English language, much less legalese.


----------



## Vanda

Alguma coisa entre:
 
_IN WITNESS WHEREOF_, the parties hereto have _signed_ this _agreement_ as of the *...*


----------



## Porteño

Vanda said:


> Alguma coisa entre:
> 
> _IN WITNESS WHEREOF_, the parties hereto have _signed_ this _agreement_ as of the *...*


 
Ah! Muito obrigado Vanda, justo o que estava buscando.

Saudações.


----------



## Benvindo

Porteño said:


> Good evening,
> 
> I trust this will be the last question for today. I would very much appreciate it if someone could provide me with a good English translation of this phrase. I've searched the WEb and the 'translated' examples are merely laughable and bear no relation to the English language, much less legalese.




- - -
Hi Porteño, some contracts translated from PT to EN use the following formula: 

"Therefore, [by] being in full and fair agreement..."

Have a look at this internet site and see what you think (and tell us, PLEASE!) 

All the best.


----------



## Porteño

Benvindo said:


> - - -
> Hi Porteño, some contracts translated from PT to EN use the following formula:
> 
> "Therefore, [by] being in full and fair agreement..."
> 
> Have a look at this internet site and see what you think (and tell us, PLEASE!)
> 
> All the best.


 
Very many thanks indeed. the site is most interesting and in general the English is pretty good - just a few small glitches here and there. Is there any way by which I could get the Portuguese version as it would be very useful to have on file? I'm getting a lot of contracts to translate right now so it would be a ready reference. Thanks again.


----------



## Benvindo

Good morning, Porteño. That particular contract doesn't seem to have a PT version on the net, but this one does and it uses a similar phrasing. See the PT version here.


----------



## Vanda

Só um detalhe, Porteño,

That formula 'in full and fair agreement' I've found only in Brazilian agreements. Yesterday before posting here I've checked that and all of them were found in Brazilian sites. The other one I've posted above you'll find in sites which language is English.


----------



## Benvindo

Vanda said:


> ... That formula 'in full and fair agreement' I've found only in Brazilian agreements ...
> 
> - - -
> Yes, that seems to be the case. Do you think the use of this formula would feel out of place in "genuine" English in a formal document like a contract? I know it's used in normal speech, at least Bill Clinton seemed to like it! (See here).


----------



## Porteño

Benvindo said:


> Vanda said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... That formula 'in full and fair agreement' I've found only in Brazilian agreements ...
> 
> - - -
> Yes, that seems to be the case. Do you think the use of this formula would feel out of place in "genuine" English in a formal document like a contract? I know it's used in normal speech, at least Bill Clinton seemed to like it! (See here).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think so, it doesn't fit too well with the more usual dry English legalese. It has a nice touch though, 'muito brasileiro!'. I imagine that some Carioca/Paulistano contract translator used it and everybody else followed suit.
Click to expand...


----------



## Porteño

Benvindo said:


> Good morning, Porteño. That particular contract doesn't seem to have a PT version on the net, but this one does and it uses a similar phrasing. See the PT version here.


 
Many thanks. A quick scan says it is quite a good translation although I could see a number of words that are not really appropriate. Also the translator used possessive apostrophes which would 'never?' appear in a UK contract (I can't be so sure about a US one, though I suspect it would be the same).


----------



## Benvindo

Hi again, Porteño, and thanks for all the feedback!


----------



## Porteño

Benvindo said:


> Hi again, Porteño, and thanks for all the feedback!


 
Likewise!


----------



## zelis

The idea, seems to me, is «bound by word and by contract». «Justo» is the past participle of «justar». This language was typical of the rural world, where the contracts were firm only by agreement between the two parts; no written papers. The words «justos e contratados» have a similar meaning, giving strength, force, expressivity; is a superlative manner. Forgive me and correct the errors.


----------



## Carfer

zelis said:


> This language was typical of the rural word, where the contracts were firm only by agreement between the two parts; no written papers. The words «justos e contratados» have a similar meaning, giving strength, force, expressivity; is a superlative manner.


 
It's just a legal formula, Zelis. That old-fashioned flavour, that makes you think of the rural world, stems from the conservatism that is quintessencial to the vast majority of (if not all) law systems. Besides, law is impregnated with rites (just have a look at the cerimonial, the judge's or lawyer's robes and in some cases wigs, and so on) and the same happens with the quite particular language of law. I can assure you, from my own personal experience, that in many cases we don't even know what some of those ritual sentences litterally mean or why we say things that way. It's tradition, just tradition. 

_'In full and fair agreement_' as suggested by Benvindo may not fully correspond to the English legalese, but it is, anyway, a good translation and, in my opinion, it captures and embodies the tone and flavour of our legal lingo.


----------



## Porteño

Carfer said:


> It's just a legal formula, Zelis. That old-fashioned flavour, that makes you think of the rural world, stems from the conservatism that is quintessencial to the vast majority of (if not all) law systems. Besides, law is impregnated with rites (just have a look at the cerimonial, the judge's or lawyer's robes and in some cases wigs, and so on) and the same happens with the quite particular language of law. I can assure you, from my own personal experience, that in many cases we don't even know what some of those ritual sentences litterally mean or why we say things that way. It's tradition, just tradition.
> 
> _'In full and fair agreement_' as suggested by Benvindo may not fully correspond to the English legalese, but it is, anyway, a good translation and, in my opinion, it captures and embodies the tone and flavour of our legal lingo.


 
I agree with that, the only objection I would have to using it in a translation of a legal document is that it could possibly not be understood by the reader. Thus I would prefer the idea suggested by Vanda (slightly modified) - _IN WITNESS HEREOF_


----------



## Carfer

Porteño said:


> I agree with that, the only objection I would have to using it in a translation of a legal document is that it could possibly not be understood by the reader. Thus I would prefer the idea suggested by Vanda (slightly modified) - _IN WITNESS HEREOF_


 
_'In witness hereof...'_ has a direct equivalent in portuguese _'Em fé do que...'. _It is related more to the contract itself whereas _'in full and fair agreement_' actually refers to the people who get bound by it. But I don't think this is really important, it is just a ritual formula, with no real significance. If, instead of saying _'justos e contratados',_ we used to say '_Amen_' or something like that it would amount almost to the same, I guess.


----------



## Porteño

Carfer said:


> _'In witness hereof...'_ has a direct equivalent in portuguese _'Em fé do que...'. _It is related more to the contract itself whereas _'in full and fair agreement_' actually refers to the people who get bound by it.


 
That's pretty much in line with what I meant when I said it was very 'brasileiro'. In my view Brazilians are much more personally orientated and that would be far more important to their way of thinking than the rather impersonal object of a company. It's on the verge of being of-topic, but a similar instance occurred the other day with the translation of 'user-friendly' which, in IT circles in Brazil, is translated as 'amigável'. I thought it was just great!


----------

