# "Dewa, ato de" and proper bowing



## JoeDerivative

Hi! 
I'm writing something where three characters appear: a young woman, the receptionist, and a man. The young woman is Japanese; the receptionist and the man aren't, but the man is supposed to be knowledgeable enough to excuse himself as a Japanese person would do in the context.

The context is the following.

We're at a fancy hotel in London where the young woman is staying. She has just come back to the hotel and is talking to the receptionist, when suddenly the man joins the conversation: he's heard and recognised the young woman's name, and he would like to ask her something. Note that the man and the young woman do *not* know each other. The receptionist interrupts the man, saying that the young woman has just come back, she's probably tired, and it would perhaps be best to talk to her another time. The young woman doesn't say nearly anything the whole time, because she's a bit puzzled by the man.

The man agrees to leave, and this is where he's supposed to say goodbye in a manner appropriate to the situation. He turns to the young woman and says "Dewa, ato de," while performing a keirei bow. Are this type of bow and the sentence appropriate to the context and to each other? Is the sentence transliterated correctly?

Thanks


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## SoLaTiDoberman

> Are this type of bow and the sentence appropriate to the context and to each other? Is the sentence transliterated correctly?


I don't think ordinary Japanese people never ever perform the keirei bow in their lives unless they are police officers or army soldiers.
About thirty years ago, in a Japanese TV drama, danjyo shichinin akimonogatari, a woman (Hiromi Iwasaki) performed the keirei bow to Sanma Akashiya when she said sayonara to him. In that era, it made sense as a unique gesture to pay respect to him. But thirty years have passed after that drama, and I don't think keirei bow makes sense now.

And I don't think ordinary Japanese people would say that unless the guy has the special characteristic to say such a thing to a woman. The scenario itself seems very weird.
Therefore, I don't know if your intention would be successful or not.


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## JoeDerivative

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I don't think ordinary Japanese people never ever perform the keirei bow in their lives unless they are police officers or army soldiers.
> About thirty years ago, in a Japanese TV drama, danjyo shichinin akimonogatari, a woman (Hiromi Iwasaki) performed the keirei bow to Sanma Akashiya when she said sayonara to him. In that era, it made sense as a unique gesture to pay respect to him. But thirty years have passed after that drama, and I don't think keirei bow makes sense now.
> 
> And I don't think ordinary Japanese people would say that unless the guy has the special characteristic to say such a thing to a woman. The scenario itself seems very weird.
> Therefore, I don't know if your intention would be successful or not.


Thanks for your reply!

Basically, the man is trying to impress the young woman. Not to seduce her, but just to surprise her, I guess. He simply wants to respectfully say in Japanese "See you later, then" and bow appropriately to excuse himself. How do you think he should do that?


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## gengo

JoeDerivative said:


> The man agrees to leave, and this is where he's supposed to say goodbye in a manner appropriate to the situation. He turns to the young woman and says "Dewa, ato de," while performing a keirei bow. Are this type of bow and the sentence appropriate to the context and to each other? Is the sentence transliterated correctly?



I'll answer the last question first.  Yes, it is a correct transliteration of では、後で.

You don't tell us how fluent in Japanese the man is, but given your context (which admittedly is a bit unusual), I see nothing wrong with that phrase.  You could also say "それでは、また後で[お会いしましょう]."

If I were in that situation, though, I would explain why I was speaking to a stranger (the woman), because otherwise it would be rather rude.

As for the bow, here's a little diagram showing the three basic types.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I'd like to retract #2 because I was confused about "the keirei bow" shown in #4 and the common word 敬礼：

敬礼 - Google Search

The context-wise, I cannot imagine a situation, in which the hotel staff member didn't call the police, and the guy said "see you later, then."  I'd even think that the guy was a psycho or something.
The woman would say, "There is no "later." Otherwise, I'll call the police." The situation seems extraordinarily weird anyway, so I cannot suggest anything about that.


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## JoeDerivative

I tried to give you as much context as I could, thinking that would help, but apparently that just makes matters more difficult. So, let's simplify the scenario.

You're excusing yourself from a person you're not very familiar with, but whom you're going to see later. You're 100% fluent in Japanese and know the culture extremely well. Is "Dewa, ato de" plus a keirei bow an appropriate way to excuse yourself in such situation?



> The context-wise, I cannot imagine a situation, in which the hotel staff member didn't call the police, and the guy said "see you later, then."  I'd even think that the guy was a psycho or something.


That's no accident. The situation is meant to be weird, and if I was in your place, I'd probably be confused too about what the heck I'm being asked  Who knows, if I get lucky, one day you might happen to stumble upon my book and then it'll make more sense.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

No.
"Dewa, ato de" sounds like "catch-ya later then!"
It's only available between close friends in Japanese culture.
You never say it to someone who is not familiar with you.
If you talk to that person, you would say something like:
"Bushitsuke ni okoegakeshiteshimai, moushiwake gozaimasendeshita. Yoroshikereba, mata, nochihodo, aratamete, jikosyokai to, okoegakesiteiru riyu wo zehi setsumei sasete itadakitainodesuga."

You have to ask her the approval to meet him again, and you should wait for her affirmative answer.
You should not leave her saying "catch you late then." The bow doesn't work unless you listen to her "yes" answer.
Does it make sense?

I'm not talking about the unexpected reason for his behavior. I'm not talking about your punchline.
I'm talking about the quite normal politeness against someone who is not familiar, not yet.

"Dewa, ato de" seems so offensive and rude, so the keirei bow doesn't work at all, or even worse.

If he turns out to be Demon or God or an alien, maybe it makes sense, but even Demon or God would follow common courtesy. Okay, maybe, Heath Andrew Ledger's Joker would behave like that.
Therefore, if you have that kind of thing in mind, your word choice and the gesture would be perfect.

If the woman is a kind of "Bond Girl" who falls in love at once with James Bond without any reason, and if the guy was James Bond, it would make sense.
Are you talking about this kind of thing?
In that case, "dewa, ato de" and keirei bow are perfectly fine.

Anything goes in fiction. But the context and background are a must for the word choice.


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## JoeDerivative

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> You have to ask her the approval to meet him again, and you should wait for her affirmative answer.
> You should not leave her saying "catch you late then." The bow doesn't work unless you listen to her "yes" answer.
> Does it make sense?


Yes and no. This is really hard to explain, but as you mentioned, this is no ordinary situation. It has nothing to do with the James Bond scenario you mentioned, nor with demons and gods, and I really cannot explain it here, it's too complicated. 

The bottom line is, the man didn't get a chance to ask the woman what he wanted right now, but he can and will do so later. He _knows_ they will meet again, he's not asking for her permission. He will, period. He is behaving as though that future meeting is an established fact, because it is, even though the woman doesn't know it.

In English, he would probably excuse himself with something like: "I shall talk to you later, then" and a hint of a polite smile.
It comes across as villainous, and that's fine, even though he has no ill intentions. It's fine if the situation is ambiguous. It's supposed to be.

All I need is a good translation of "I shall talk to you later, then" and knowing which of the three kinds of bows he would do to appear polite.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

If he is a time-traveler or time-machine driver or something, ではまたのちにお会いしましょう is what you're looking for.
"Dewa mata nochini oai simasho." and saikeirei bow.


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## TheUnitedStatesOfEurope

gengo said:


> I'll answer the last question first.  Yes, it is a correct transliteration of では、後で.
> 
> You don't tell us how fluent in Japanese the man is, but given your context (which admittedly is a bit unusual), I see nothing wrong with that phrase.  You could also say "それでは、また後で[お会いしましょう]."
> 
> If I were in that situation, though, I would explain why I was speaking to a stranger (the woman), because otherwise it would be rather rude.
> 
> As for the bow, here's a little diagram showing the three basic types.
> 
> View attachment 78780


@gengo さん  、

I always thought in terms of formality that things go this way (in increasing order of formality): 会釈 (15°) < 普通礼 (30°) < 敬礼 (45° ~ 60°). It seems that 敬礼 and 最敬礼 are now overlapping in terms of angle, unless 最敬礼 is even lower (more than 60°)? 🤔  Just thinking out loud here. 😋 I would be interested to read your opinion about this. ☺️

Thank you so much | どうもありがとうございます m(_ _)m
🇪🇺 The USE | ヨーロッパ合衆国 🇪🇺


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## gengo

TheUnitedStatesOfEurope said:


> I always thought in terms of formality that things go this way (in increasing order of formality): 会釈 (15°) < 普通礼 (30°) < 敬礼 (45° ~ 60°). It seems that 敬礼 and 最敬礼 are now overlapping in terms of angle, unless 最敬礼 is even lower (more than 60°)? 🤔  Just thinking out loud here. 😋 I would be interested to read your opinion about this.



Natives can probably help you more on this than I can (and this question is probably outside the scope of this thread).  I can only say that when I was preparing to interview for my job at 西武百貨店, I paid my friend to coach me, as he had recently gone through the interview process himself (which is quite extensive in Japan, with several levels).  He taught me how to knock on the door, enter the room, bow, close the door behind me, and bow again.  He told me how far to bow and how long to hold it.  Such things come naturally to native speakers.

As an aside, I remember that when I first started living in Japan, I always thought it was funny to see people bowing while they were talking on the phone, since the other person couldn't see it, but after living there for years, I found myself doing the same thing.  It just seems to be an integral part of the culture and language.


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## JoeDerivative

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> If he is a time-traveler or time-machine driver or something


He is not, and while I don't speak a word of Japanese, I am somewhat sceptical that there are ways to excuse yourself specifically meant if you happen to be a time traveller.

I appreciate you are trying to help, but honestly I'm only getting more confused, especially as you recommend a saikeirei bow, which according to all sources I've read is basically reserved for when you're begging for forgiveness for something you've done. Perhaps my explanations were too vague; if that's the case, I apologise. Just to clear up any possible misunderstanding, when I say that the man "excuses himself" I don't mean it in the sense that he's asking for forgiveness; I mean that he is taking his leave, he's saying goodbye and going away.

I guess the best I can do is write down here the brief conversation where I'd like to have that sentence. I would very much appreciate it if you or anyone else would take the time to read it and suggest how to translate the sentence in bold and the right kind of bow.

Please, be mindful that this was originally written in Italian and I just translated it on the fly by myself. The situation is the same as described above: the man doesn't know the woman and vice-versa; the receptionist has met the man once and he didn't quite like him, so he's just trying to politely make him go away.

So, the young woman and the receptionist are having a conversation, and then the man arrives.

"Forgive me for intruding," intervened a stranger, seemingly very interested.
The receptionist appeared in disbelief. "Uhm... Mister Hill," he said. "I wasn't expecting to see you again so soon..."
"I'm very attached to this place," Hill smiled ironically. "I beg your pardon, miss," he then went on talking to the young woman. "I seem to understand that your family name is Kadokawa. Is that right?"
"Yes..." she replied, slightly surprised.
"What a fortunate coincidence," said Hill, with a plain, barely hinted smile.
"What do you mean?" asked the young woman.
"I'm an old friend of Mister Dawson. I know your father is too, and I was hoping I could meet him about—"
"Excuse me, Mister Hill," the receptionist interrupted him, striving to smile. "Miss Kadokawa has just arrived and she must surely be a bit tired. And anyway, we need to take care of her luggage. Maybe it would be best to postpone for now."
"Of course," Hill replied, barely nodding. "I won't disturb you further, miss. *I shall see you later, then,*" he added before excusing himself with an impeccable *[bow type] *bow.

That's all. Thanks anyone for any help!


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## gengo

JoeDerivative said:


> before excusing himself with an impeccable *[bow type] *bow.



I'll just say that I see no need to include any word for that bold part.  Most speakers of Italian won't know what a keirei, etc., is anyway, so it would just be confusing.  "...with an impeccable bow" by itself is fine.


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