# Ignoranz/Ignorance



## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> "*Ich bin nicht tapfer genug, meine Ignoranz regelmäßig zu offenbaren...*"
> ---> Nur eine wichtige Sache:
> _ignorance_ (in diesem Zusammenhang) heißt auf Deutsch *Unwissenheit, Unkenntnis[/i].
> "Ignoranz" heißt zwar auch "ignorance", aber in der Bedeutung "etwas (absichtlich) nicht beachten"; jemanden ignorieren => to avoid seeing/ talking to someone on purpose.
> 
> 
> Bis bald, Gruß
> -MrMagoo*


*
Interesting:

Ignoranz: Ahnungslosigkeit, Desinformiertheit, Desinteresse, Dummheit, Einfältigkeit, Nichtwissen, Unerfahrenheit, Uninformiertheit, Unkenntnis, Unwissenheit

There is something strange going on here. I found the word "Ignorance" mostly in quotes, and apparently it is simply a word borrowed from French into both German and English.

But the defintion you give seems to be only one of many, and not the most common one according to many sentences I've just looked at. So I'm a bit confused. 

Gaer*


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## Jade

Ein kurzer Einwand ...... Der eigentliche Ursprung von Ignoranz kommt nicht vom Französichem sondern vom Latein.

Jade



ignorantĭa). 
 1. f. Falta de ciencia, de letras y noticias, general o particular. 
~ del derecho. 
 1. f. Der. Desconocimiento de la ley, el cual a nadie excusa, porque rige la necesaria presunción o ficción de que, promulgada aquella, han de saberla todos. 
~ invencible. 
 1. f. La que tiene alguien de algo, por no alcanzar motivo o razón para desconfiar de ello. 
~ supina.


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Interesting:
> 
> Ignoranz: Ahnungslosigkeit, Desinformiertheit, Desinteresse, Dummheit, Einfältigkeit, Nichtwissen, Unerfahrenheit, Uninformiertheit, Unkenntnis, Unwissenheit
> 
> There is something strange going on here. I found the word "Ignorance" mostly in quotes, and apparently it is simply a word borrowed from French into both German and English.
> 
> But the defintion you give seems to be only one of many, and not the most common one according to many sentences I've just looked at. So I'm a bit confused.
> 
> Gaer


 
That's why I wrote _in diesem Zusammenhange_.
The German word "Ignoranz" only occurs in "etwas/jemanden ignorieren" which means _to not notice something/somebody on purpose_.

The English word "ignorance" covers all the German translations you gave above, including Ignoranz.

In the statement "Ich bin nicht tapfer genug, meine _Ignoranz_ regelmäßig zu offenbaren...", it can only mean Unwissenheit, Unkenntnis, also Ahnungslosigkeit and maybe Dummheit, but not Ignoranz.

-MrMagoo


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## germinal

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> That's why I wrote _in diesem Zusammenhange_.
> The German word "Ignoranz" only occurs in "etwas/jemanden ignorieren" which means _to not notice something/somebody on purpose_.
> 
> The English word "ignorance" covers all the German translations you gave above, including Ignoranz.
> 
> In the statement "Ich bin nicht tapfer genug, meine _Ignoranz_ regelmäßig zu offenbaren...", it can only mean Unwissenheit, Unkenntnis, also Ahnungslosigkeit and maybe Dummheit, but not Ignoranz.
> 
> -MrMagoo


 

Na ja aber meine Ignoranz ist nicht von diesem Zusammenhange begrenzt! 

Ausser diesem Gebiete es gibt ein Haufen Dingen dass ich weiss nicht und dafur ist es wahrscheinlich dass ich meine breitere _ignoranz_ an den Tag legen werde jedesmal wenn ich meinem slechtes Deutsch verwende - nicht nur von Deutsch sondern anderen Themen das gehort nicht dazu. 

I just thought I would attempt to say in German that when I referred to my _ignoranz _it need not be confined to ignorance of German but also a wider field of ignorance which I feared I might reveal when using the language to discuss other topics. 

According to what I understand you to say I could then use I_gnoranz_ rather than_ Unwissenheit?_ 

Thanks for your encouragement earlier - please correct my German.


Germinal.


_._


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## elroy

germinal said:
			
		

> Na ja aber meine Ignoranz ist nicht *auf * diese*n*  Zusammenhange* zu beschränken*!
> 
> Au*ß*er diesem *Gebiet * *gibt es * ein*en* Haufen *von * Dingen, *mit denen ich mich nicht auskenne*, und daf*ü*r ist es wahrscheinlich*,* dass ich meine breitere _*I*gnoranz_ an den Tag legen w*ü*rde jedesmal *dass * ich *mein * s*ch*lechtes Deutsch verwende*n* *würde * - nicht nur von Deutsch sondern *von * anderen Themen*, * *die dazu nicht gehören*.
> 
> I just thought I would attempt to say in German that when I referred to my _ignoranz _it need not be confined to ignorance of German but also a wider field of ignorance which I feared I might reveal when using the language to discuss other topics.
> 
> According to what I understand you to say I could then use I_gnoranz_ rather than_ Unwissenheit?_
> 
> Thanks for your encouragement earlier - please correct my German.
> 
> 
> Germinal.
> 
> 
> _._



I don't think so; regardless of what your ignorance (i.e. lack of knowledge) was supposed to refer to, I think the point MrMagoo was trying to make was that you couldn't use "Ignoranz" in this case to mean "lack of knowledge."  It would mean "neglection" and should therefore be replaced with "Unwissenheit."

At least that's what I gathered from the discussion.


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## Jana337

> Au*ß*er diesem *Gebiet * *gibt es * ein*en* Haufen *von * Dingen, *mit*/*in denen ich mich nicht auskenne*, und  *dafür deswegen/deshalb* ist es wahrscheinlich*,* dass ich meine breitere _*I*gnoranz_ an den Tag legen w*ü*rde jedesmal * dass wenn  * ich *mein * s*ch*lechtes Deutsch verwende*n* *würde * - nicht nur von Deutsch sondern *von * anderen Themen*, * *die dazu nicht gehören*.



Ich glaube nicht, dass man _dafür_ benutzen kann. Und _wenn _in Germinals Beitrag wäre meines Erachtens richtig. _Dass _klingt mir dort zu umgangssprachlich.

Jana


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## gaer

Jade said:
			
		

> Ein kurzer Einwand ...... Der eigentliche Ursprung von Ignoranz kommt nicht vom Französichem sondern vom Latein.
> 
> Jade
> 
> 
> 
> ignorantĭa).
> 1. f. Falta de ciencia, de letras y noticias, general o particular.
> ~ del derecho.
> 1. f. Der. Desconocimiento de la ley, el cual a nadie excusa, porque rige la necesaria presunción o ficción de que, promulgada aquella, han de saberla todos.
> ~ invencible.
> 1. f. La que tiene alguien de algo, por no alcanzar motivo o razón para desconfiar de ello.
> ~ supina.


OK. But I was talking about the similarity in spelling and usage for "Ignorance". As for Latin, I assume that everything comes from it, which is of course wrong, but since I know nothing about Latin, well…  

Gaer


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> That's why I wrote _in diesem Zusammenhange_.
> The German word "Ignoranz" only occurs in "etwas/jemanden ignorieren" which means _to not notice something/somebody on purpose_.


I'm sorry. I am totally confused. There is something very important that I am missing. What does "only occur" mean? Are you perhaps saying that "Ignoranz" has an additional meaing, related to ignorienen? Because that would make sense to me. So I THINK (although I am by no means sure) that you are saying that in the context that Germinal used "Ignoranz", it means deliberatly ignoring rather than simply not understanding. Am I getting it?

My confusion stems from the fact that I can't find the meaning you gave for "Ignoranz". Don't think for a moment that I doubt you—I don't—but a search for "Ignorance" in Google is useless, LEO defines Ignoranz as "ignorance" (again no help), and the Leipzig site shows only four sentence with "Ignorance".

http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/

Type in Ignorance and Ignoranz there. There are a ton of sentences using "Ignoranz", and I'm simply unable to tell from reading the example sentences what you are pointing out. Could you write a couple sentences with "Ignoranz" that will illustrate the meaning you have in mind? I'm certainly never going to write "meine Ignoranze"!!!


> The English word "ignorance" covers all the German translations you gave above, including Ignoranz.


Okay. This is all new to me. The meaning of the words we are talking about has always been clear from context in any reading I've done, so I think you will be clearing up a little mystery for more people than just me.


> In the statement "Ich bin nicht tapfer genug, meine _Ignoranz_ regelmäßig zu offenbaren...", it can only mean Unwissenheit, Unkenntnis, also Ahnungslosigkeit and maybe Dummheit, but not Ignoranz.


So in this context, it can only mean deliberate "ignoring" of something? If I wrote such a sentence, I would be saying that I don't like to regulary make public the fact that I deliberate ignore something? Am I getting close? Sorry to appear thick as a brick, but this is TOUGH!

Gaer


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## Jana337

> Igno|ranz,  die; - [lat. ignorantia] (bildungsspr. abwertend):
> 
> a) tadelnswerte Unwissenheit, Kenntnislosigkeit in Bezug auf jmdn., etw.: politische I.; seine Antwort zeugt von ziemlicher I.;
> 
> b) (selten) das Ignorieren.



Vielleicht hilft euch ein Auszug aus dem Duden weiter.

Jana


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## gaer

germinal said:
			
		

> I just thought I would attempt to say in German that when I referred to my ignoranz it need not be confined to ignorance of German but also a wider field of ignorance which I feared I might reveal when using the language to discuss other topics.


Well, perhaps this is a perfect case of the "blind leading the blind", because if you read my last post, you will see I am also very confused. However, I suspect now that "Ignoranz" is now being used by many people incorrectly. Here's why.

If you google "meine Ignoranz", you will see a number of "hits" that use this idea in our English way. Forgive my ignorance…

My assumption, as of this moment, is that we are seeing an informal and incorrect usage. If you think about "ignorance" in English, even here it is extremely complicated. Although ignorance may mean nothing more than "not knowing", we both know how many times we have heard:

Ignorant fool, ignorant a---h---, etc. So even in English, the idea that "igorant people" are "clueless" because they stubbornly CHOOSE to be so is very common.

I'll have to wait for MrMagoo to clarify, but I'm now thinking that in formal writing the nuance of DELIBERATE ignorance (ignoring on purpose) is much stronger in German.

Now, this is really a case of "everything I know may be wrong", so we "shall" find out tomorrow, perhaps!

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> My confusion stems from the fact that I can't find the meaning you gave for "Ignoranz". Don't think for a moment that I doubt you—I don't—but a search for "Ignorance" in Google is useless, LEO defines Ignoranz as "ignorance" (again no help), and the Leipzig site shows only four sentence with "Ignorance".
> 
> http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/
> 
> Type in Ignorance and Ignoranz there. There are a ton of sentences using "Ignoranz", and I'm simply unable to tell from reading the example sentences what you are pointing out. Could you write a couple sentences with "Ignoranz" that will illustrate the meaning you have in mind? I'm certainly never going to write "meine Ignoranze"!!!




What a complicated word *hehe*
Jana's Duden quote was quite helpful, the meaning of "Ignoranz" a) seems to be a kind of neologism to me, I'd say it's hardly used in colloquial language, but you can find it more often in news, esp. political statements.

"Ignoranz" normally is the noun to the verb _ignorieren_, e.g.

Er hat mich den ganzen Tag ignoriert.
(= He ignored me the whole day, i.e. he didn't talk to me, did not pay attention to me, even didn't say 'hello').
Die Leute sprechen manchmal schlecht über mich, aber ich ignoriere das einfach.
(= i.e. I don't pay attention to what they say; I am pretending that I don't hear what they say)

Sie ist eine ignorante Person.
(= i.e. she doesn't care of what somebody else/ other people need, or she doesn't even pay attention to some people at all; here it can also mean 'to be unfriendly, impolite').

Manchmal riecht es in diesem Raum unangenehm, aber das mußt du ignorieren.
(= just don't pay attention to it).





> So in this context, it can only mean deliberate "ignoring" of something? If I wrote such a sentence, I would be saying that I don't like to regulary make public the fact that I deliberate ignore something? Am I getting close? Sorry to appear thick as a brick, but this is TOUGH!
> 
> Gaer



No problem, Gaer, it's also such a brick trying to explain it...

I hope I could help you out a bit with these examples - what I actually want to say is that "Ignoranz" in the way germinal used it would mean (at least in my ears) "not paying attention at all - on purpose!" and that's definitely not what germinal meant 

It seems that it can be used by the media, occasionally, but I for myself would not use it in another sense than the one I explained.

-MrMagoo


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## Jana337

I remember a teacher of English in a course taken here in Praha reminding us of a different meaning of "ignorance" in English compared to Czech where "ignorance" means either "neglect" (a neutral word) or "outright stupidity" (very negative, of course). He pointed out that in English, "to be ignorant" is a neutral word describing that someone is missing knowledge of a particular field. Czech speakers tend to be surprised at the breathtaking sincerity with which English and American natives admit that they are "ignorant about something" because in Czech it sounds like "I know, I am an absolute idiot".

Jana


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## MrMagoo

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I remember a teacher of English in a course taken here in Praha reminding us of a different meaning of "ignorance" in English compared to Czech where "ignorance" means either "neglect" (a neutral word) or "outright stupidity" (very negative, of course). He pointed out that in English, "to be ignorant" is a neutral word describing that someone is missing knowledge of a particular field. Czech speakers tend to be surprised at the breathtaking sincerity with which English and American natives admit that they are "ignorant about something" because in Czech it sounds like "I know, I am an absolute idiot".
> 
> Jana



Hi again, Jana.
I would second that.
This is also true for the German word "Ingnoranz". 

-MrMagoo


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Vielleicht hilft euch ein Auszug aus dem Duden weiter.
> 
> Jana


Yes, Jana. That's precisely what I needed and could not find! I think you will realize now that I had just about guessed this definition from your comments and MrMagoo's. I've never used this word myself, and you can be sure I will never use it in the future. Too potentially insulting!

Gaer


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I remember a teacher of English in a course taken here in Praha reminding us of a different meaning of "ignorance" in English compared to Czech where "ignorance" means either "neglect" (a neutral word) or "outright stupidity" (very negative, of course). He pointed out that in English, "to be ignorant" is a neutral word describing that someone is missing knowledge of a particular field. Czech speakers tend to be surprised at the breathtaking sincerity with which English and American natives admit that they are "ignorant about something" because in Czech it sounds like "I know, I am an absolute idiot".
> 
> Jana


By tomorrow I hope to get to the bottom of this little mystery in yet another language. If you type "ignorance" in English, in the French dictionary, you get "ignorance". This is why I mentioned French before.

But it may have the same very negative meaning in French too. I simply don't know yet. There IS this meaning in English, as I said, of DELIBERATE ignorance, and you don't have to use the word "deliberate" to make that plain. But that extra nuance is not built in as it appears to be in both German and your own language.

It seems we are talking about a very false friend. 

Gaer


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> What a complicated word *hehe*


I think so. A bit like "luxuriös", which appears to be the same as our English word but is not. 

I'll digest your comments at work and come back with more question about other things later. 

Gaer


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Ich glaube nicht, dass man _dafür_ benutzen kann. Und _wenn _in Germinals Beitrag wäre meines Erachtens richtig. _Dass _klingt mir dort zu umgangssprachlich.
> 
> Jana



Bei _dafür _ hast du Recht.  Ich habe eigentlich überlegt, ob es richtig war, da es sich auch für meine Ohren etwas komisch angehört hat.  Das _dass _ dürfte bei mir vom Englischen beeinflusst worden sein.  Auf Englisch würde man "every time that" und nicht einmal "every time when" sagen.


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> I hope I could help you out a bit with these examples - what I actually want to say is that "Ignoranz" in the way germinal used it would mean (at least in my ears) "not paying attention at all - on purpose!" and that's definitely not what germinal meant
> 
> It seems that it can be used by the media, occasionally, but I for myself would not use it in another sense than the one I explained.
> 
> -MrMagoo



Can you explain why?  Why was it so obvious to you in that context that it would have to mean "not paying attention to something" rather than "lack of knowledge"??


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## elroy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I remember a teacher of English in a course taken here in Praha reminding us of a different meaning of "ignorance" in English compared to Czech where "ignorance" means either "neglect" (a neutral word) or "outright stupidity" (very negative, of course). He pointed out that in English, "to be ignorant" is a neutral word describing that someone is missing knowledge of a particular field. Czech speakers tend to be surprised at the breathtaking sincerity with which English and American natives admit that they are "ignorant about something" because in Czech it sounds like "I know, I am an absolute idiot".
> 
> Jana



Well, the very most basic definition of the word is in fact simply "lack of knowledge," so that I could very naturally say "I am ignorant about the situation in Kashmir" without having to sound like an idiot.  However, the word can be used with a certain tone of voice to imply that lack of knowledge implies stupidity.  Now that you mention it though, we have the same phenomenon in Arabic.  I would normally not use the word for "ignorant" to state that I do not know something, because it would in fact mean "I am a fool."  It can also have the connotation of "naive."


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> I think so. A bit like "luxuriös", which appears to be the same as our English word but is not.
> 
> I'll digest your comments at work and come back with more question about other things later.
> 
> Gaer



So what does "luxuriös" mean in German?  I realize this smells like a new topic but it's related to this one and I don't want to start a whole discussion; I just want to know what it means.

Another example btw: pathetic vs. pathetisch


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> So what does "luxuriös" mean in German? I realize this smells like a new topic but it's related to this one and I don't want to start a whole discussion; I just want to know what it means.
> 
> Another example btw: pathetic vs. pathetisch


I KNEW you'd pick up on this. I hit return, shut down my computer then realized 10 seconds later that I used the wrong word. No problem with "luxuriös".  

The problem words are: comfortable/komfortabel, and I'm sure you know why. 

Gaer


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## germinal

elroy said:
			
		

> Bei _dafür _hast du Recht. Ich habe eigentlich überlegt, ob es richtig war, da es sich auch für meine Ohren etwas komisch angehört hat. Das _dass _dürfte bei mir vom Englischen beeinflusst worden sein. Auf Englisch würde man "every time that" und nicht einmal "every time when" sagen.






But you can use either of these English phrases although I agree that the first is rather more common.        


Germinal.


.


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## elroy

germinal said:
			
		

> [/color]
> 
> 
> 
> But you can use either of these English phrases although I agree that the first is rather more common.
> 
> 
> Germinal.
> 
> 
> .



Can you?  "Every time when" doesn't sound good to my ears.  I would either use "that" or nothing at all.

Could it be yet another American-British difference?!


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> Can you? "Every time when" doesn't sound good to my ears. I would either use "that" or nothing at all.
> 
> Could it be yet another American-British difference?!


Hmm.

"It happens every time when I see you."

I agree, I think, that the word "that" would sound better, and even "that" could be eliminated frequently. The use of "when" does not sound totally wrong, though, just informal. Now I'm not sure, because as always thinking about such things changes everything. 

Gaer


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