# why/that



## mimi2

Which should I use "that" or "why"?
"Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
"Are those the reasons that you decided to break up with her."
Thanks.


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## chiaro

"Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
"Are those the reasons that made you decide to break up with her."

If you ask me, but let's wait for the natives?


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## Dimcl

mimi2 said:


> Which should I use "that" or "why"?
> "Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
> "Are those the reasons that you decided to break up with her."
> Thanks.


 
I would use "that" for the following reason:

"Why did you break up with her?"
"My reasons are *that* she ate too much and cost me too much money. These are the reasons *that* I broke up with her".

"Why" is very commonly used in this context and if you used it, nobody would bat an eyelid (meaning that nobody would take note).


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## elroy

Dimcl said:


> I would use "that" for the following reason:
> 
> "Why did you break up with her?"
> "My reasons are *that* she ate too much and cost me too much money. These are the reasons *that* I broke up with her".


 Dimcl, that is not a good argument.   "That" in the first sentence introduces a noun clause that is being linked to "reasons" and tells us what the reasons are.

"That" in the second sentence introduces a modifier that tells us what was caused by these reasons.

One has nothing to do with the other.  Both "that" and "why" are possible in such a construction, with no difference in meaning.


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## Dimcl

elroy said:


> Dimcl, that is not a good argument.  "That" in the first sentence introduces a noun clause that is being linked to "reasons" and tells us what the reasons are.
> 
> "That" in the second sentence introduces a modifier that tells us what was caused by these reasons.
> 
> One has nothing to do with the other. Both "that" and "why" are possible in such a construction, with no difference in meaning.


 
Well, I'm off to bed... Elroy is following me around and getting all grammarian on me again!  Listen to him, Mimi - he knows whereof he speaks!


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## mimi2

Thank you very much, Dimcl.
Sleep well.


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## mimi2

elroy said:


> "That" in the second sentence introduces a modifier that tells us what was caused by these reasons.


Hi, elroy.
These are the reasons *that* I broke up with her".
I analyse this sentence:
These: demonstrative pronoun --> subject.
are: to be
the: definite article
reasons: nouns --> complement of the subject "these"
that I broke up with her: noun clause or adjective clause? --> modify the noun "reasons"?
Please help me. Thanks.


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## elroy

mimi2 said:


> that I broke up with her: noun clause or adjective clause? --> modify the noun "reasons"?


 Actually, I'm not quite sure, which is why I was vague in my earlier post and just said "modifier."

It's behaving like an adjective clause because it's modifying "reasons," yet it's syntactically different from a "traditional" adjective clause because it does not contain a relative.  In fact, syntactically it looks like a noun clause.

So it has attributes of both adjective clauses and noun clauses.  I must say I'm curious as to how the grammarians deal with this one.


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## pieanne

I'm not a grammarian, but I can't imagine what could be the function of the relative "that" in the sub. clause...
To me, it's always "that's the reason *why* I broke up with her".
"These are the reasons *that* he gave her" is different.


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## elroy

pieanne said:


> I'm not a grammarian, but I can't imagine what could be the function of the relative "that" in the sub. clause...


 It's not a relative.


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## pieanne

My brains finds it extremely difficult to assimilate it to the "that" as in "he explained *that* he had broken up with her"


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## elroy

pieanne said:


> My brains finds it extremely difficult to assimilate it to the "that" as in "he explained *that* he had broken up with her"


 The fact that the structure you propose is different may be why that is.  That there are various types of noun clauses is something for you to consider.  

As I stated above, however, I am uncertain as to the grammatical classification of this clause.  In my first sentence above, I would consider the noun clause an appositive, but that doesn't quite work in the original sentence.  It is, however, correct (you seem to suggest that it is not just because you're not sure how it parses).


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## Siberia

Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
"Are those the reasons that made you decide to break up with her."

In both sentences the part introduced by "why" or "that" are projected clauses- projecting indirect thought as a separate clause.  Both projected clauses are circumstances of cause because they answer the questions - why? What for? - this means that they can be used with the same purpose in  mind - both qualify reasons in this example.


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## pieanne

I'm perfectly comfortable with "the reasons that made you decide", but not with "the reasons that you decided"    I've never seen such a construction...


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## Siberia

Hi pieanne,
I agree - I think that's a mistake.


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## pieanne

I'm relieved... And I mean it!


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## elroy

It is not a mistake.  Do a Google search for "the reasons that" and you'll see that many of them do not use "that" as a relative.

Pienne, perhaps you haven't come across it before, but why can't you just accept it as another possibility?


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## pieanne

Well, as far as I know, Google tells you what is "used", but doesn't specify whether it's correct or not...

You're right, Elry, it's a matter of "can/can't".
But maybe I'll have to. Or just not use it


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## elroy

Of course I don't look to Google to decide what's right or wrong.

I just don't know how else to convince you that it's correct.  I'll try to find some more authoritative sources.


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## difficult cuss

Elroy, perhaps you should not try to convince Pieanne? Perhaps it is better to simply advise? That way you might not get so worked up.


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## Siberia

Hi elroy,
it's not "the reasons that" which is the problem, but "the reasons that you decided" which sounds ugly

not to mention that "the reason why" is quite redundant too, like the reason because but that's another kettle of fish


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## elroy

I am aware of that, Siberia.  I still think "The reason that you decided to come here is understandable" is not incorrect.

Difficult Cuss, I'm not worked up.  I'm having a normal linguistic discussion.  Perhaps you shouldn't get so worked up about a calm and respectful dialogue between two members?


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## Siberia

elroy said:


> I am aware of that, Siberia. I still think "The reason that you decided to come here is understandable" is not incorrect.
> 
> Difficult Cuss, I'm not worked up. I'm having a normal linguistic discussion. Perhaps you shouldn't get so worked up about a calm and respectful dialogue between two members?


 
But Elroy,
in your example 'the reason that you  decided to come here' is a clause in itself and here a nominal clause-
In the example given in the intial thread should it be read in this way?
Those are (existential process) 
the reason that........... (existent).

p.s. Be back later - please continue discussing - will join you


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## difficult cuss

Hi Elroy, 
It appears that I misunderstood you.  
Perhaps I misunderstand your slightly terse approach "It is not a mistake. Do a Google search..", "Of course I don't look to Google to decide what's right or wrong" to be more than it is?
Do you not agree though that this forum is about advising...rather than proving a personal opinion?
If I've misrepresented you I wholeheartedly apologize.


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## pieanne

difficult cuss said:


> Elroy, perhaps you should not try to convince Pieanne? Perhaps it is better to simply advise? That way you might not get so worked up.


 
The last thing I want is to get anybody worked up! 

After all, it's my problem, and my opinion...


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## elroy

Siberia said:


> But Elroy,
> in your example 'the reason that you decided to come here' is a clause in itself and here a nominal clause-
> In the example given in the intial thread should it be read in this way?
> Those are (existential process)
> the reason that........... (existent).


I'm a little confused.

What exactly do you see as the difference - syntactically or grammatically - between "the reason that you decided to come here" and "the reason that you decided to break up with her"? 


difficult cuss said:


> Do you not agree though that this forum is about advising...rather than proving a personal opinion?
> If I've misrepresented you I wholeheartedly apologize.


 Yes, this forum is about advising, but it's also about discussing various viewpoints and offering reasons for and against them. 

No worries; misunderstandings happen. I, in turn, apologize for appearing too terse. 


pieanne said:


> The last thing I want is to get anybody worked up!


 Don't worry. Your question is interesting and the discussion is stimulating.


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## pieanne

OK  , now that everything's been settled, can someone parse/explain (I mean 'grammatically') the function of "that" in the original sentence?
(the reasons that you decided to ...)


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## elroy

pieanne said:


> OK  , now that everything's been settled, can someone parse/explain (I mean 'grammatically') the function of "that" in the original sentence?
> (the reasons that you decided to ...)


  We're back to square one.

As I said back in post #8, I'm not quite sure.  It seems to be a conjunction introducing a noun clause, but the function of the clause seems to be adjectival.

I, like you, am interested in the official grammatical classification of this "that."


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## pieanne

To me, it's
the reason(s) ...
the reason(s) why
the reason(s) for which
the reason(s) ... for
the reason(s) because

But not the reason(s) that


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## difficult cuss

the reason(s) because  ? 
Would you mind giving an example of what you mean?


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## pieanne

LOL!
I'll trade an example of the reason that against an example of the reason because


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## difficult cuss

OK, the reason that I'm going along with this is to get a response.


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## panjandrum

Personally, I would not use either that or why in the sentence.

"Are those the reasons you decided to break up with her?"


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## difficult cuss

Hi Panjandrum, in general I agree with what you say, but not this time. That sentence does not scan right for me.
"Are *they* the reasons* why* you decided to break up with her?" reads so much better ...to me (please note I have no other reason than that), maybe it simply is a case of what we've heard and what we're used to.


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## AngelEyes

In this particular instance, wouldn't *why* be the appropriate choice?

The original sentence (question, actually):

*Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her?*

Wouldn't *why* be a conjunction that introduces the relative clause *you decided to break up with her?*

Re-write and turn it into a sentence:
*Those are the reasons why I decided to break up with her.*


You would also say:
*That's why I decided to break up with her.*

*Even if I'm wrong, it still feels 100% correct in saying it that way. *


*AngelEyes*

*Pieanne:*

*You make me think,lady. Thanks!*


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## panjandrum

It's a personal choice, I agree.
The British National Corpus is a more reliable indicator of British English usage than Google.
The reasons - 2,280, of which:
... the reasons why - 480.
... the reasons that - 70.
... the reasons because - 2: 
"... can see the reasons because we're nearly doctors ..."
 "... giving the declaration before the reasons because the tribunal ordered ..."


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## LV4-26

When I want to talk like everybody else I say
_the reasons why_
When I feel I must be more correct, I say
_the reasons that
_(yet, there's no evidence so far that it *is *actually more correct)

However, I'm not really pleased with either.
My favorite is
_the reasons for which
_because you normally do something *for* a reason. (and maybe also because that option is a direct translation of the French equivalent)

Unfortunately, the latter doesn't seem to be said a lot.


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## AngelEyes

I'm a typical lazy American.

I'd use the least amount of words to get the job done, probably. LOL

So, I'd probably say what _panjandrum_ said:

"Are those the reasons you decided to break up with her?"

But still...Pieanne made me think and analyze and decide that yes, this feels like a *final answer:*

*reasons why*

And it still amazes me to discover the differences between BE and AE, especially when I do research on how we use quotation marks so differently.

But that's another topic.  


*AngelEyes*


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## panjandrum

... the reasons for - 975


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## elroy

And "the reasons for which"?


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## AngelEyes

...And, after all of this, that stupid couple will probably get back together again, anyway!

 

AngelEyes


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## LV4-26

I thought I'd get more significant results with the singular.
So here's what I got
_the reason that_ : 1,060,000
_the reason for which _: 261,000 (OK, no need to comment, folks )
And the winner is :
*the reason why : 10,200,000

*Now, I can already hear you  so I hasten to say I'm aware that this doesn't necessarily make it the most correct option.


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## pieanne

AngelEyes said:


> I'm a typical lazy American.
> 
> I'd use the least amount of words to get the job done, probably. LOL
> 
> So, I'd probably say what _panjandrum_ said:
> 
> "Are those the reasons you decided to break up with her?"
> 
> But still...Pieanne made me think and analyze and decide that yes, this feels like a *final answer:*
> 
> *reasons why*
> 
> And it still amazes me to discover the differences between BE and AE, especially when I do research on how we use quotation marks so differently.
> 
> But that's another topic.
> 
> 
> *AngelEyes*


 
Thank you, Angel 

To me, it's always "the reason *why* I/she/he ..."
As a second choice, I would say "the reason I/she/he..."

I mentioned "the reason for wich..." et altera because, although they don't sound right (to me), they still sound better than "the reason *that*..."


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## Thomsen

mimi2 said:


> Which should I use "that" or "why"?
> "Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
> "Are those the reasons that you decided to break up with her."
> Thanks.


 
_Are those the reasons why_ you decided to break up with her*?*

_Is that why_ you decided to break up with her*?*

These are the reasons that led him to break up with her.

That is why he decided to break up with her.

You need the why if you are enquiring into the conditions that lead to the break up. It's interrogative.

You don't need why if it is a statement and you aren't asking for information, but rather giving it.

At least, that is my two cents as a native speaker, but poor grammarian.


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## Siberia

Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
"Are those the reasons that you decided to break up with her."

Now that I've had a bit of time to think about it, let's see if I can explain what I think.

According to me the clause introduced by "why" or "that" should be a noun clause acting as a complement.  In this case it can only use why because only adjectival clauses and not noun clauses can begin with "that" when "that" means which, who, whom.
So if the question is  - what are those?  the answer is - the reasons why you decided to break up...  Here nothing is being described but it is being defined.
If, on the other hand, we can break up the clause - "the reasons that you decided to break up with her" further - the reasons + that you decided to break up with her - that you decided........ becomes the adjectival clause qualifying/describing reasons.  That here is ok because it means which.

So what we've got to understand is whether the subordinate clause is defining (reasons why) or describing (reasons that).

What do you think?


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## pieanne

I surrender - and I accept it!

It still doesn't sound quite right, but I'll have to get used to it!


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## Dimcl

Siberia said:


> Are those the reasons why you decided to break up with her."
> "Are those the reasons that you decided to break up with her."
> 
> Now that I've had a bit of time to think about it, let's see if I can explain what I think.
> 
> According to me the clause introduced by "why" or "that" should be a noun clause acting as a complement. In this case it can only use why because only adjectival clauses and not noun clauses can begin with "that" when "that" means which, who, whom.
> So if the question is - what are those? the answer is - the reasons why you decided to break up... Here nothing is being described but it is being defined.
> If, on the other hand, we can break up the clause - "the reasons that you decided to break up with her" further - the reasons + that you decided to break up with her - that you decided........ becomes the adjectival clause qualifying/describing reasons. That here is ok because it means which.
> 
> So what we've got to understand is whether the subordinate clause is defining (reasons why) or describing (reasons that).
> 
> What do you think?


 
In my one and only post in this subject (#3), I think that what Thomsen and Siberia are saying is what I was driving at (poorly).  The example I used in my post was trying to say that I think the subject of the sentence is the confirmation of the reasons, not the "why" behind the reasons.  The person asking the question already knows the reasons (hence the question "Are those the reasons _____ you broke up with her?").  The reasons have already been reiterated.  Our heartbreaker says "Yes, those are the reasons..." hence "They are the reasons that..."


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## LV4-26

When we tend to rule out "the reason(s) why", aren't we confusing two different issues and being overcorrect?


			
				siberia said:
			
		

> not to mention that "the reason why" is quite redundant too, like the reason because but that's *another kettle of fish*


(my emphasis). 
Precisely, I claim it's a different kettle completely. Having thought about it a little bit more, I wonder whether we (i.e. myself and a couple of others) are wrongly putting _reason why_ and _reason because_ in the same bag.

Of course, I haven't made an exhaustive search but I haven't found any grammarian saying that "_reason why_" is incorrect. They all blame "_reason because"_ which is admittedly redundant as siberia rightly said.

What I *have* found is grammar sites just saying that "many writers prefer _that_ to _why_ in a clause referring to _reason_"
I don't know who those "many writers" are but Dickens, for one, uses "reason why" 25 times and "reason that" (in the sense we're dealing with, that is - see just below)  only once.

In many instances, the _that_ in _reason that_ is 
- a relative pronoun as in
_The reasons *that* he gave me.....
_(I'm aware elroy has already addressed that objection)._
- _or a conjunction indeed, but one that introduces the description of the reason (the "because" clause), not the action it is supposed to justify. _
(a)...for the reason *that* I couldn't afford it...
(b) the reason *why* I decided to break up with her was *that* she snored in bed.

_In this source, _why_ is described as a "relative adverb", exactly like _where_ and _when.
The day (when) I first saw her
The town (where) I was born
The reason (why) I left her

_Therefore, I think I'll stick to "_reason why"_ from now on and will word my sentences exactly as I did in (b) : the reason *why*....is *that*....


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## pieanne

I've found this in Cambrdge http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65859&dict=CALD, so I have to accept that "the reason that she broke up with him..." is correct.
I don't think I'll use it much, though...

"The reason because" is definitely wrong, since "a reason" means "a cause", so you won't say "the cause because..."

My favourite remains "the reason why ..."


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