# Spanish team photo controversy



## Orreaga

This is about intercultural communication and _not _sports, so I hope it's all right to ask.

The recent photo of the Spanish Olympic basketball team, in which the players stretched their eyelids in imitation of the Chinese, provided a classic example of a behavior interpreted by some cultures as acceptable and others as unacceptable.

According to the British and American press, the gesture was seen as mocking the Chinese in an insulting way. The opinion of one American player was that "if the American team posed for a picture like that, we would have been banned from the Olympics."  According to the Spanish, it wasn't intended to offend anyone, and was even meant as a gesture of "cariño" towards the Chinese. They say this is an "invented controversy."

How do you interpret it in your culture? Some reports say the Chinese were not insulted by the photo, but then the state-controlled Chinese media did not publish the photo. Nothing was said about whether the Chinese interpreted the gesture as a compliment. 

In the U.S. this is a gesture that children might learn from other children but which parents would correct, because it's considered offensive and immature to mimic people who look different from you. To see a photo of a group of adults making this gesture is quite shocking, and it's difficult for us to understand how this could not be offensive.


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## Tagarela

Olá,

I think it's really hard to tell wether it was offensive or not. Some may consider that it's only a thematic picture others may say that's only another silly Western thought that says that everyone in China is the same and has narrowed eyes. I wouldn't consider it that offensive too, but not cariño as well - it's neutral, but off course, it's not clear what they meant. 

Let's wait and see how Spaniards are going to immitate Britishes in London 2012 =)

Até.:


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## sokol

For me context is what matters.
Certainly in Austria it is nowhere near like what you described for the US (that even children were told never to imitate people looking different from them), I guess in the US there is much more sensitivity towards race and racism.

In this context I don't think that the gesture is offending; the gesture obviously is not meant to offend but to put something 'Chinese' into the picture. It is probably not a very witty thing to do this (this is my personal opinion), but that's it.


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## PABLO DE SOTO

A mí como español la foto me parece simplemente una tontería. Los deportistas son muy dados a hacer gestos que yo considero tontos, y este es uno más.
Pero desde la mentalidad española, el gesto no es racista, ya que si no, no se habrían hecho la foto, porque los deportistas hacen tonterías, pero no son tontos.
En los juegos de Atlanta no se habrían hecho una foto saliendo de un barco negrero con grilletes en los tobillos, ya que eso sí se tiene claro en España que podía haber sido ofensivo.

En la mentalidad tradicional colectiva española, los chinos han sido seres inocentes, simpáticos, a los que se podía engañar ( engañar como a un chino) y que sonreían mucho.

Esa mentalidad está cambiando por la inmigración china en España y ahora se les ve como comerciantes inteligentes que trabajan sin parar, pero en general caen bien, porque no causan problemas, hay poca delincuencia de origen chino en España y tienen tiendas de productos baratos pero considerados de poca calidad.


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## Chaska Ñawi

In Canada, which has very large Chinese communities in Toronto and Vancouver and many people of Chinese origin across the country, the ad would be seen in very poor taste.  Actually, this is irrelevant to our population of Chinese-Canadians - the reaction would be similar if, for example, the players had all posed in blackface.

To be honest, I'm astounded that any team from any country would pose in such a way for a photo.  

Donning my moderator toque, I think that we need to broaden this discussion a bit and take a more general look at how different cultures view such imitations.  Thanks.


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## lamartus

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> Pero desde la mentalidad española, el gesto no es racista, ya que si no no se habrían hecho la foto, porque los deportistas hacen tonterías, pero no son tontos.



Estoy de acuerdo contigo. No considero que lo entendamos como un gesto racista, de hecho forma parte de gestos de canciones infantiles sin ninguna maldad. 

Bajo mi opinión, a lo mejor polémica, es que el racismo del gesto está en la cabeza de quien lo interpreta como una forma de menospreciar a los chinos. Además, por lo que parece según voy leyendo sobre el tema, a los chinos tampoco les parece ofensivo. Entiendo pues que tiene más que ver con registros culturales no extensibles a la población mundial que con una cuestión de racismo. Cosa distinta es que el anuncio no haya por donde agarrarlo...

Un saludo y gracias por leer.

P.D: ¿Cómo se interpreta a Stuczynski cuando dice que quiere darle una patada en el culo a Isinbayeva? Eso si es para mí un gesto de desprecio y completamente antideportivo.


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## Macunaíma

I think the picture is silly but far from shocking. It may have been in bad taste, but just by looking at them it's clear that the Spanish athletes in the photo didn't mean to offend anyone. That kind of silly stereotyping is not uncommon in Brazil, but that's just a reflection of the fact that we are not so sensitive to racial issues. Maybe the same could be said of the Spaniards.


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## Bonjules

lamartus said:


> Estoy de.................. Además, por lo que parece según voy leyendo sobre el tema, a los chinos tampoco les parece ofensivo.


 
----How do you know that? How many Chinese that would tell you something like that have you talked to? It is hard to admit one is being insulted - aside from not wanting to be impolite you have to fully admit to yourself the pain first. Much easier to deny it: Our capacity for denial of reality is immense.
And ‘official ‘ Bejing? Forget it, everything needs to be cuchi-coo, armonía total, perfect peace without anything upsetting.
It is exactly the way of racist stereotyping to reduce a group of people to a common physical characteristic. For sure the strangest interpretation of this act, as far as I can tell, was to call it something of ‘ cariño’, or ‘affection’.
saludos


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## jartesm

En mi opinión es un gesto de solidaridad, como diciendo "tambén somos chinos" (del mismo modo que, cuando alguien se pone una kippá al visitar Israel, no por no ser judío se considera que esté bromeando). Tal vez fue un modo de "fer pinya" como decimos en Cataluña (esto es, de "ir todos a una"). Por otra parte, estoy de acuerdo con que hay gestos tontos que proliferan día a día, como morder la medalla o hacerse fotos chupándose el dedo (!).


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## ewie

From where I'm sitting in the UK the photo looks _fairly_ offensive ... I suspect, though, that it's not so much the gesture itself as *the fact that a bunch of adults posed for a photo doing that gesture*.
I'm not sure: I've read through this thread twice now, and tried to cast myself into the minds of my compatriots to imagine what _they_'re thinking. Because the fact remains that to _my_ British eyes at least the whole thing is just _infantile_: if it was the Spanish Under-5's Basketball Team it would be understandable ~ it would still be infantile, but at least it would be _infants_ involved.
(Is it my imagination or are all the chaps in the photo wearing clothes that are twelve sizes too big for them? I actually found those outfits pretty offensive)

*Far more offensive* is the practice of doctoring team or group photos so as to reflect someone's sense of 'ethnic aesthetics', or whatever. There was a famous case of this which was exposed a few years ago in the UK (unfortunately my memory can supply no details ...) in which a photograph of a company's workforce taken for an advertising campaign had the black faces removed prior to publication. Now _that_'s offensive.


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## chics

Hola.

Insisto en lo mismo que han dicho los demás españoles. Se trata de un gesto infantil que pertenece a nuestra cultura (canciones de inteligentísimas letras como _soy un chino capuchino mandarín-rín-rín de la era de la era del Japón-pón-pón_...). 

La foto quería ser simpática, seguramente fue improvisada y pensaron hacer todos el mismo gesto para mostrar la unidad del equipo y aportar un toque chino ¿qué gesto hubiera hecho un estadounidense? A mí me hizo sonreir, yo creo que ea vuelta a la infancia (que algunos han criticado) es precisamente el toque entrañable, de recuerdos con cariño, que en otras culturas no encuentran.

Tampoco es un gesto más tonto que morder la medalla, hacer el avión, tocar el culo al compañero o hacer el supermán con una bandera a modo de capa. Los deportistas son así.

Los chinos nos resultan simpáticos y en nuestro ideario colectivo se muestran amables y sonrientes. Las mujeres consideramos que los ojos almendrados son más bonitos y nos maquillamos (alguna incluso se operan) para estirarlos ópticamente.


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## lamartus

Bonjules said:


> ----How do you know that?



Porque estuve leyendo las reacciones sobre el tema. Unos ejemplos:



> Sin embargo, *un portavoz de la Embajada China en España* ha asegurado que no entienden el gesto como una ofensa. "No creo que los españoles lleguen a ofender en China a los chinos", ha dicho. Además, ha añadido que en su país tampoco se ha interpretado como un acto racista. De hecho, en el país asiático no se interpreta ese gesto como una imitación a los chinos.


Extraído de aquí.



> Li Wang, corresponsal en Madrid de un grupo de comunicación chino, y buen conocedor de nuestra peculiar idiosincrasia en asuntos de humor, se mostró así de tajante: "Eso, si acaso, es humor amarillo, ese que ponen en Cuatro. Nada, nada. Ni en el país se conoce el anuncio, me refiero al gran público, ni creo que exista un chino que se moleste por la fotografía. Es más, no creo que muchos la entiendan. ¿Dónde está la ofensa? Desde luego que yo no lo considero así".


Extraído de aquí.

Saludos a todos.


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## clipper

Tengo que decir que entiendo los dos argumentos en este caso. A primera vista (y como soy y siempre seré inglés) me pareció una falta de respeto total. Sin embargo después de hablar con compañeros, familia y amigos españoles es obvio que no han llegado al nivel de “political correctness” que sufrimos en el Reino Unido.
 
Los ejemplos de los españoles en este mismo hilo lo demuestra; España es un país donde los niños siguen cantando canciones como la citada por chics, mientras en el Reino Unido ya no se puede cantar Baa Baa black sheep a causa de sus connotaciones racistas.
 
¿Quines somos nosotros para juzgar si un gesto, una foto, o una canción sea ofensivo o no? Yo solo sé que preferiría vivir en un país donde no se controlan tanto lo que se puede, o no se puede decir y hacer. Eso si, me encuentro orgulloso del hecho que no habría participado en un gesto que, aunque quizás no era ofensiva, tampoco tenía ninguna gracia.


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## lamartus

clipper said:


> Eso si, me encuentro orgulloso del hecho que no habría participado en un gesto que, aunque quizás no era ofensiva, tampoco tenía ninguna gracia.



 Completamente de acuerdo. Además de no tener gracia es que no dice nada. No sé qué intención tendría el anunciante, pero desde luego no tiene un sentido claro .

Saludos a todos.


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## Flaminius

Hello,

I might be missing a lot of important points due to my inability to read a word in Spanish but the first thing I felt with the picture was displeasure.  Next came sadness with the realisation that it is perhaps how we are generally conceived there (without specifying what "we" and "there" exactly mean) — finding no reasons to assume that the players are more prejudiced than the average (again, without an accurate definition of the statistic universe) or less so.  It's not the first time but I don't think I have accustomed to be exposed to a prejudice like this.

If the same thing had happened for the Japanese, I can think of a few ultra-nationalist pundits who would have written angry comments on how Western barbarians are racists at heart, but people would not have organised large-scale protestations.  It could be that such motives as described by *Bonjules* are at work but it is equally possible for the Japanese to decide not to preach from the position of moral superiority in an attempt to save their local prejudices from a counter-attack.  



Chaska Ñawi said:


> Donning my moderator toque, I think that we need to broaden this discussion a bit and take a more general look at how different cultures view such imitations.  Thanks.


Imitations by plastic surgery included?  Imitating the typical Western face by creation of eyelid creases or removal of epicanthal folds is regarded by some as augmenting beauty.


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## Zsanna

I think Hungarians would be baffled at such a picture, not really understanding the point or the message behind such a gesture. (The players are _too_ old for nursery school, after all...!) 
I think it would seem to most of us more infantile (even silly) than offensive.


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## mirx

In México this would have been taken as a solidarity gesture, no less and no more, certainly not racist. 

If the Olympics had been played in Zimbabwe and a Mexican team had painted all their faces black it would have been the same, at least in my culture it is seen as a solidarity gesture; the same way as foreigners coming to México and wearing somebreros, even less so perhaps,  as sombreros are indeed a stereotype; yet the pecularity of the Chinese eyes is something to do with their race. So, at least for me, the Spanish were trying to say "we are with China, we are a bit Chinese too". I see nothing offensive on that whatsoever.

I also agree with others that there are a thousand better ways to express one's solidarity.


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## Orreaga

Flaminius said:


> I might be missing a lot of important points due to my inability to read a word in Spanish but the first thing I felt with the picture was displeasure.  Next came sadness with the realisation that it is perhaps how we are generally conceived there (without specifying what "we" and "there" exactly mean) — finding no reasons to assume that the players are more prejudiced than the average (again, without an accurate definition of the statistic universe) or less so.  It's not the first time but I don't think I have accustomed to be exposed to a prejudice like this.


Thanks, Flaminius, for being the first Asian to give an opinion here (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Up until your reply the Spanish posts have said that the photo was not offensive to the Chinese, backed up with a quotation from a spokesperson for the Chinese Embassy in Spain saying that the Chinese take no offense because they don't recognize the gesture.  The Spanish respondents seem to agree that at best it was a childish attempt to show solidarity with the Chinese (athletes being well-known for behaving childishly), but it was meant as a friendly gesture and was not racist, but neither was it funny. 

Having had Chinese friends (as well as black, Hispanic, and Native American friends) since childhood and teachers of Chinese descent in school, I learned quickly that such gestures were offensive to them, and people who behaved in racially disrespectful ways would be called "jerks" (among other things). I don't know how common it is in Spain for non-Chinese to have Chinese friends or Chinese teachers in school who could have sensitized them in a similar way.

I have Mexican friends who are offended by images of peasants wearing sombreros, having a siesta under a tree, which reinforced certain stereotypes of Mexicans. Latino friends who object to the stereotype of the sensuous, hot-blooded, flirtatious Latin who is a natural dancer and shakes his/her hips, etc.  People generally like to be appreciated as individuals and do not like to be reduced to a single, meaningless cartoon while all their other traits are ignored.

I would love to hear from more East Asians about how they view the photo.


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## mirx

Orreaga said:


> I have Mexican friends who are offended by images of peasants wearing sombreros, having a siesta under a tree, which reinforced certain stereotypes of Mexicans. Latino friends who object to the stereotype of the sensuous, hot-blooded, flirtatious Latin who is a natural dancer and shakes his/her hips, etc. People generally like to be appreciated as individuals and do not like to be reduced to a single, meaningless cartoon while all their other traits are ignored.


 
I am not a big fun of these stereotypes, that's why I pointed out that Chinese have the almond-shaped eyes because its part of their race, the Mexican characteristics -which to an extent are true- are all based on attitudes and prejudices.  

Something that needs to be given attentiont to, is the context in which the picture was presented. If it had appear during an ad about human rights in China then it might have been taken as pure mockery (from a Mexican point of view). In this particular way it has no such effect and, as mentioned above, is just a show of solidarity towards the Chinese.


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## Orreaga

I just re-read the guidelines that say not to reply to discussions about stereotypes, so I apologize for discussing some of those.

We've heard from several non-Chinese Spaniards and Latin Americans who claim the photo meant no offense, but they are not the ones who would be offended in the first place.  I would prefer to hear from Chinese and other East Asians as to how they interpret the photo.


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## ceint

Orreaga said:
			
		

> The opinion of one American player was that "if the American team posed for a picture like that, we would have been banned from the Olympics."



I don't know about banned, but I reckon there would definitely be some action taken against them. If white Americans had done such a thing, it would probably be interpreted (ironically, by those who are saying it is just an "invented controversy" indicative - of course - of the puritanism and hypocrisy in "Anglo-saxon" culture**) as a reflection of the "inherent racism in USA society", or something similar.



clipper said:


> Los ejemplos de los españoles en este mismo hilo lo demuestra; España es un país donde los niños siguen cantando canciones como la citada por chics, mientras en el Reino Unido ya no se puede cantar Baa Baa black sheep a causa de sus connotaciones racistas.


I can't see what the Spanish Olympic team making that gesture has to do with children's songs. 
In any case, not being able to sing "Baa Baa black sheep", call a blackboard a blackboard and other such nonsense is something that, at least from my experience of having lived in this country all my life, only happens in the sensationalist articles of right-wing tabloid newspapers such as the Daily Mail, Daily Express, etc, in their perpetual "the country is going mad with political correctness" outrage (which they use to more nefarious ends when it suits them).



			
				Macunaíma said:
			
		

> That kind of silly stereotyping is not uncommon in Brazil, but that's just a reflection of the fact that we are not so sensitive to racial issues. Maybe the same could be said of the Spaniards.


I seem to remember the exact same thing happened a few years with the Brazilian football team before they went to the World Cup in Japan.



			
				Orreaga said:
			
		

> In the U.S. this is a gesture that children might learn from other children but which parents would correct, because it's considered offensive and immature to mimic people who look different from you. To see a photo of a group of adults making this gesture is quite shocking, and it's difficult for us to understand how this could not be offensive.


In the UK I wouldn't say it was shocking but definitely offensive. Some of the people I go to college with are of Chinese origin and they were not happy at all when they saw those pictures.

If anyone thinks that it's not offensive to Chinese people then maybe you could try showing your _cariño _and _solidarity_ with them next time you go for a meal at a Chinese restaurant and see what the reaction is...

(** = something I read in a Spanish blog yesterday).


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## ajo fresco

I agree that here in the U.S. the photo is generally considered insulting and a mockery of the Chinese people.

Today in the news I saw a photo of some members of Argentina's Olympic women's football team making the same "Chinese eyes" gesture.  It was taken a week before the Spanish team's photo and appeared without any controversy until the Spanish photo became the target of criticism.

It's interesting to see how "political correctness" varies from country to country.


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## clipper

ceint said:


> I can't see what the Spanish Olympic team making that gesture has to do with children's songs.
> In any case, not being able to sing "Baa Baa black sheep", call a blackboard a blackboard and other such nonsense is something that, at least from my experience of having lived in this country all my life, only happens in the sensationalist articles of right-wing tabloid newspapers such as the Daily Mail, Daily Express, etc, in their perpetual "the country is going mad with political correctness" outrage (which they use to more nefarious ends when it suits them).


 
I was making reference to chics' post (no 11) in which the lyrics to a childrens' song are quoted to illustrate the culture of political correctness in Spain. I felt that chics' example was an extreme, maybe exagerated one, included to make a point so my analogy followed this theme.

I agree with your comments on the sensationalism of political correctness in th UK, however I was simply pointing out, by the comparrison of two extremes, that politcal correctness is very different in Spain than in the UK, so why would we expect the Spanish basketball team to be constrained by Anglo-Saxon morals ?


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## chics

Clipper, se trata de ua canción popular que seguro que Marta y Pablo también conocen. Hay otras (_yes, yes, me lo dijo un inglés ; güi, güi, me lo dijo un francés; piano, piano un italiano y lo mucho que te quiero te lo digo en castellano_) pero pocas que hagan referencia a otras culturas o nacionalidades.

El humor y el tipo de bromas que se hacen en mi país no siempre se entienden en los demás. Por ejemplo, tuve que dar algunas explicaciones en la final del partido de fútbol a unos guiris que me pedían no la traducción sino el porqué de ciertas frases para animar.

Si no me confundo, se trataba de una foto de españoles para un público español. No veo porqué tengan que tener en cuenta la visión cultural de gente de terceros países que no tienen nada que ver y a quienes nadie ha dado vela en el entierro. Me parece buena idea hablarlo en este foro y me ha hecho ilusión que participe al menos alguien de Japón (¿no hay chinos? ) pero lo que sí me parece ofensivo es que EEUU se queje de algo que ni entienden ni tiene nada que ver con ellos.

Para nosotros el racismo es también pretender que todos somos iguales para poder tener los mismos derechos. Yo no sé si habrían osado pintarse la cara de negro si las olimpíadas fueran en el Congo (pero sí conozco el anuncio de los "conguitos"...) pero nuestros baloncestistas sí ven que elmundo hay gente con ojos más rasgados que otros, pieles más claras y otras más oscuras, gente más gorda que otra, etc. eso no implica que unos sean mejores que otros ni que jugar a ser otros (ahora las mujeres vamos a tener que llevar a plagio a cada humorista se vista de mujer) sea querer ofenderles.

Los racistas son los que sí se escandalizan con esto, ven lo que no hay y no quieren ver los distintos rasgos de cada uno.

Edito : me acabo de acordar de otra canción : _chinito tú, chinito yo, y así será..._ (¿cómo seguía?), la coreografía consistía en levantar alternativamente los índices de ambas manos al ritmo de la música.


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## ernest_

Unfortunately, this kind of thing is what you can expect from professional athletes in Spain, people who have spent the whole life doing one thing and only one, and have completely neglected their education in the process. Do not take them out of their little field of expertise, if you don't want to be embarrassed by their constant displays of ignorance and bad taste.


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## Orreaga

chics said:


> Si no me confundo, se trataba de una foto de españoles para un público español. No veo porqué tengan que tener en cuenta la visión cultural de gente de terceros países que no tienen nada que ver y a quienes nadie ha dado vela en el entierro. Me parece buena idea hablarlo en este foro y me ha hecho ilusión que participe al menos alguien de Japón (¿no hay chinos? ) pero lo que sí me parece ofensivo es que EEUU se queje de algo que ni entienden ni tiene nada que ver con ellos.


Well, the whole point of this forum is to have an opportunity to do just that, to help international participants to understand each other.  At least two of the Spanish players play for professional teams in the U.S. (Pau Gasol and José Manuel Calderón), and fans in the U.S. definitely have an interest in the behavior of players who live here and make their living here. I don't believe this "cosa nostra" angle really holds water in the "global village".

I've just asked a Taiwanese colleague of mine how she views the photo, she hadn't heard of the controversy until I told her about it. When I showed her the photo she shook her head in disappointment, she said she can understand how the people in the picture thought it was "cute" but said that they lacked cultural awareness and sensitivity. 

I also asked a friend from Argentina this morning over coffee, he hadn't heard about the controversy either, and when I described what the players did with their eyes his first reaction was, "se burlaban de los chinos", they were making fun of the Chinese. 

Even though some Spaniards and Latin Americans who've posted here have resented the way the British and American press have interfered in matters which are "none of their business", I wonder if teams in Spain and elsewhere will continue to pose that way in the future, or will they think twice about it?


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## Polizón

Hola a todos:
El Perú es uno de los países de América que más tipos de raza tiene. Digamos que hay multiplicidad étnica. Y no solamente eso, sino que hay muy pocas razas que se mantienen "puras". Diría que el 99% de nuestra población es mezclada. Acá se dice que _"el que no tiene de inga, tiene de mandinga"_, para referirnos al hecho de que "todos" los peruanos tenemos en la sangre algo de negro, de chino, o autóctono [léase: descendientes de las razas originarias antes de la llegada de Colón; Incas, por ejemplo].
Quizá por esa diversidad, la foto del equipo español de baloncesto materia de esta discusión no genera ningún efecto. No crea resentimientos, críticas ni risas tampoco. Lo vemos como un asunto sin importancia.
Sin embargo, debo decir que sí soy conciente de que algunas culturas (sobre todo euronórdicas o en Estados Unidos) se considera ofensivo un gesto como el que ahora comentamos. Hace poco hubo una discusión acerca de los tratamientos familiares que se daban en diferentes culturas y ese punto quedó claro. En consecuencia, creo que no fue muy atinado sacarse una foto así (algunos son muy susceptibles; no los chinos, por cierto), pues genera una polémica innecesaria. Por otro lado, creo que los que se rasgan las vestiduras por la dichosa foto, se están ahogando en un vaso de agua.
La globalización está borrando fronteras, así que no veo razón alguna en cerrarse a una opinión o a seguir con resentimientos absurdos. América Latina fue durante muchos años dominada por los españoles y portugueses y no por ello les tengo resentimiento a los españoles. 
Creo que una foto como esa no tuvo ninguna mala intención. Más bien creo lo contrario. Secundo los comentarios de los que me han precedido y que opinan lo mismo. Creo que quisieron hacer un gesto de integración. 
Eso sí, si en un estadio de fútbol, algunos asistentes imitan a un mono cuando un jugador negro toca el balón, es claro que hay una intención maliciosa, despectiva y racista. Aquí no, solamente se jalaron los ojos. Los ojos rasgados son caracteristicos de los chinos, japoneses, coreanos y de zonas cercanas. Hasta los lapones, que no están cerca de allí tienen los ojos rasgados.
Nosotros tuvimos un presidente de origen japonés que para ganarse el cariño popular se hacía llamar el chino, precisamente porque la inmigración china (anterior a la japonesa) fue muy grande, y decirle "chino" a una persona no es despectivo. 
En fin, no quiero desviarme del tema. El asunto, para mí, es claro: no hay mala intención, pero a la luz de lo sucedido, tampoco fue muy acertado.
Saludos,
Polizón


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## gurseal

Orreaga said:


> How do you interpret it in your culture?


In my country, the occasional fan or group of fans will break out the multicolored afro wigs _in solidarity_ with the favorite team or player while attending an "intranational"/intracontinental game. I _think_ that the average North American sees this as fun and not offensive in that context.

But a _national team_ from North American doing the stretched-eyes thing is out of sorts in a region where quite a few of us or our neighbors and friends _look_ like Chinese nationals (and not just on the West Coast).

These sorts of things still happen behind closed doors (o sea, por este lado de la frontera). Some feel that there is much ado; others complain.


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## ampurdan

I have only seen the picture in the link of the first post and, after reading that article, my impression is:

1) that the gesture was meant to add something Chinese to the photo (the Dragon on the floor wasn't enough, apparently). The Spaniards were the target; more specifically, the readers of a sports newspaper. It wasn't probably the best idea as an ad, but I don't think it is as bad as to be worth so much outrage. 

2) that someone has very few things to do or is very interested in putting the Spanish olympic basketball team or the Spaniards under a bad light. Don't ask me, I don't know why. I also wonder why _The Guardian_ goes as far south as Spain to look for offensive gestures and commentaries to other nationalities, when they have _The Sun_ at home. There is racism in Spain, but I don't think this case is one example. Is not as simple as a gesture in a picture and it is not as juicy a piece of news as the slant-eyes thing apparently is in some countries.

A gesture can mean different things. When a round-eyed kid, in a mainly "round-eyed society", does that gesture because he sees a person with almond-shaped eyes, their parents may tell him not to do so, because he's underlining a physical difference and that can trouble the person with slanted eyes. Kids can also use it to mock someone. However, here the intent is clearly the opposite. It's a way to become Chinese when you know very little about Chinese people.

If a British swimmer meant to participate in an international competition taking place in Spain appered in a British sports newspaper, let's say, with a brown-coloured face, a big black moustache and a bullfighter hat, I think most Spaniards who happened to see it would deem it just a quite stupid stereotype ("that's how they view us?", "couldn't they think of anything better?"), but I guess few of them would think that any offense was intended. In fact, the same gear could be used in an offensive way, but the background story should be quite different.

Would the Swedes be offended if a Spanish team meant to play in their country appeared with blonde wigs and Viking helmets? Would they deem it racist? I don't quite think so. Childish? Not necessarily and, in any case, not in the way it's meant in this thread.


----------



## sokol

ampurdan said:


> Would the Swedes be offended if a Spanish team meant to play in their country appeared with blonde wigs and Viking helmets? Would they deem it racist? I don't quite think so. Childish? Not necessarily and, in any case, not in the way it's meant in this thread.



I can't speak for Swedes, but say - if Austria were to host the Olympic Summer Games (more likely the Winter Games ) and the Spanish team would advertise themselves in *Lederhosen *or alternatively *Dirndln *(with all the clichée accessoires attached) I think no Austrians really would be offended, certainly they would *not *think of the Spanish as being racist.
But I guess many would think that this is not very good taste because it is a silly stereotype (and by the way one that represents a part of Austrian culture with which only a part of the Austrians identify themselves).

Therefore I wouldn't consider it good style to do so - this also is my opinion on the Spanish Team Photo controversy, _mutatis mutandis._
I really don't see this as a big affair, them posing like that, but if I were their photographer or their manager I certainly would have advised against doing so, as I would advise against posing in _Lederhosen & Dirndln_ if Austria were to host the Games.


----------



## Macunaíma

From my cultural background, at least, I still believe this is an invented controversy and a major waste of time. But the discussion in this thread came back to me yesterday when I received this week's issue of Veja, Brazil's largest news magazine. On the cover, a picture of Mao Tse Tung with an eye propped by a matchstick and a headline which read "Abertura Made In China" ('Made In China' Opening, i. e., 'Fake' Opening). How's that for a controversy?


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## cuchuflete

A U.S. viewpoint:  Prior to reading this thread, I had read nothing about it in the press.
As far as I can tell from daily reviews of numerous news sources, this matter was not a front page item.  It may have been buried deep in the sports section of some publication.

In short, it doesn't appear to have been judged to be a major news item, controversial or otherwise.  That seems appropriate.  Common sense suggests that it was not intended to be offensive.  That said, it may be a source of offense for some, and an illustration of foolishness for others.  

I wonder if any of the athlete's compatriots are proud of it. From what I've read in this thread, they are either indifferent or take it as a bit of silliness, not unexpected from athletes.


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## Tagarela

Olá,



Macunaíma said:


> From my cultural background, at least, I still believe this is an invented controversy and a major waste of time. But the discussion in this thread came back to me yesterday when I received this week's issue of Veja, Brazil's largest news magazine. On the cover, a picture of Mao Tse Tung with an eye propped by a matchstick and a headline which read "Abertura Made In China" ('Made In China' Opening, i. e., 'Fake' Opening). How's that for a controversy?



I agree with Macunaíma. I saw nothing about this picture on Brazilian press.
But, as for the Veja issue, we must be careful. According to the magazine point of view (well known for those who have read some samples of it recently), it's clear that the cover was a little offensive, as Macunaíma had well explained "Made in China" can mean "fake" or "of bad quality" in some contexts. 

Até.:


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## Orreaga

cuchuflete said:


> A U.S. viewpoint:  Prior to reading this thread, I had read nothing about it in the press.
> As far as I can tell from daily reviews of numerous news sources, this matter was not a front page item.  It may have been buried deep in the sports section of some publication.


It was not a "front page" item but it was part of the coverage of the first few days of the Olympics on American TV, so millions of people who tuned in during the first few days heard about it, and those who found it interesting as a cultural item (such as myself) searched the Internet for additional information.

I don't understand how this issue can be compared to Spaniards mocking Swedes or Austrians, since they are all Caucasians.    We were talking about a very specific gesture that has been used in certain European cultures to mimic the physical appearance of East Asians, not their clothing.  The Spanish photo to me was reminiscent of the U.S. in the 1950's, perhaps.  Nobody in an all-white sports team would have thought there was anything wrong with taking a picture like that, and all would have defended the gesture as harmless, and would have insisted that there was much ado about nothing, much like many people in this thread who are defending the gesture made by the Spanish athletes.

I think the reason the British and Americans find the photo so offensive has to do with the cultural revolution of the 1960's, when much progress was made in the race relations in both countries, when among youth, at least, interracial understanding, peace and love came to the forefront of consciousness after a long period of racial oppression. Those who lived through that social movement objected to any kind of prejudice against people of different races, colors, or creeds and attempted to build a society based on tolerance and equality. Four decades later we are positively allergic to any kind of gesture that could be perceived as offensive to someone of a different race. And Chinese Americans have unequivocally spoken out against the gesture they saw the Spanish athletes make, which they say is clearly racist _from their point of view_.

I found *ceint*'s comment particularly apt, and I've not yet read a response to it: "If anyone thinks that it's not offensive to Chinese people then maybe you could try showing your _cariño _and _solidarity_ with them next time you go for a meal at a Chinese restaurant and see what the reaction is..."  

The one East Asian who gave an opinion to this thread, Flaminius, said that seeing the photo made him sad and disappointed him.  Nevertheless, Spaniards and Latin Americans go on defending it and saying it's no big deal.  No wonder nobody else feels like challenging it.

And I am absolutely convinced that the gesture was made with the best intentions, while I'm also cognizant of the saying in English, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."


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## Meeracat

I agree with the point made by Orreaga that in the UK and USA there is a heightened sensitivity towards material that is racist (or appears to be so). Racism is rooted in a fear of the ‘other’ in the sense that the ethnicity (identity) of the other is a threat to one’s own ethnicity (identity). It is fundamentally an inability to deal with difference. The are many weapons in the arsenal of ethnic defence; the first of which is to ridicule, to make fun of, to mock, all aimed at reducing the threat perceived in the 'other', to symbolically indicate that their ethnicity is on a lower level than one’s own (and hence their ‘humanness’). The first step in emphasising difference is to point out the obvious physical dissimilarities (colour of skin, shape of eyes, nose etc), the next is to impute disgust and dirt, evil and inhuman practices. The lowest point of this ‘othering’ is of course the holocaust of Jewish people by the Nazis.
I doubt that it was the intention of the people in the photo to be racist, but they nevertheless betrayed their lack of sensitivity to how racism, when tolerated by the many, can too easily serve as a nod of approval to the few who have more malevolent racist intent.


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## ampurdan

I recognize the value of the revolution in other Western countries in the 60’s. My country was not a pioneer in that move (it was still under a fascist dictatorship) but was not indifferent to it. We have learnt many things from other country’s experiences and in the end, we managed to get rid of the dictatorship. However, by that time, there was no big racial diversity, gypsies being the only visible ethnic minority. However, things have changed a lot and equating today Spain to the USA in the 50’s is, in my opinion, stretching too much the comparison. Today we do have racial diversity in this country and, although there are conflicts and there is racism, there is public concern about it and there is no official segregation as there was in that country around those years. Racism is universal but each country has undergone its own experiences and its own fights. I think this is a good reason not to judge what happens in other countries just basing on the experiences of one’s own.

Let’s take, for instance, the “why do Americans have to pay an illegal immigrant’s education?” current speech in the CNN. In Spain, public education and health is free for everybody, even illegal immigrants and even though poor immigrants are been looked down by some people, I don’t think any TV channel would dare to engage in such a campaign here. It might well arrive the time when someone interested in sowing discord engages in another anti-American campaign using this thing as an excuse, though. 

That would be taking things out of context and that’s what I think _The Guardian_ has done in the first place. They smelled titbits (specially after the stories of Lewis Hamilton and Luis Aragonés), took this photo out of its context and showed it to the world as a blatant racist gesture. American press echoes the news. Asian Americans and British of Asian ancestry logically complain because their experiences of that gesture have not been precisely pleasant. As a result, the image of Spaniards being racists and morons is reinforced and now some Asian people or people of Asian ancestry might harbour hard feelings towards the Spanish. The British and American media championed the cause of anti-racism against a fake enemy by generating hatred. Hum, the road to the anti-racist Paradise must be full of unclear intentions…

I, myself, found a 2002 James Bond movie much more worrying than this episode. A villain was the son of a Northern Korean President who was ashamed of his race and underwent a surgical operation to look like a fair-haired English nobleman. What kind of message is this film giving? Looking like a Westerner is something Asian people are dying for? Asian, don’t try to usurp the throne of the Westerner in the World? Has anyone protested in the UK? Koreans did, but, at least officially, on other grounds. Apparently the gesture of some foreign basketball players who tried to be nice perhaps in the wrong way is a more serious threat to anti-racism towards Asians. I might be the one with a problem and that’s why I see a little incoherence here.

I don’t think misconceptions about physical features of other people’s races necessarily have a connection with racism. The Holocaust could happen because of many centuries of campaigns of slander against the Jews, not because some people believed that they all had big noses. That was just trivial. When a police officer fires at me or a judge finds me guilty just because my "race profile" makes me suspicious of being a murderer or a terrorist or, on another scale, someone doesn't hire me or gives me a worse job just because of my race, that _is_ real racism and it may happen in present-day USA or the UK, despite any revolution, as well as in Spain and in every country. What are the grounds for people of one of these countries to be patronizing towards people from another one about this topic then? Let alone sow discord.


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## Orreaga

ampurdan said:


> I, myself, found a 2002 James Bond movie much more worrying than this episode. A villain was the son of a Northern Korean President who was ashamed of his race and underwent a surgical operation to look like a fair-haired English nobleman. What kind of message is this film giving? Looking like a Westerner is something Asian people are dying for? Asian, don’t try to usurp the throne of the Westerner in the World? Has anyone protested in the UK? Koreans did, but, at least officially, on other grounds. Apparently the gesture of some foreign basketball players who tried to be nice perhaps in the wrong way is a more serious threat to anti-racism towards Asians. I might be the one with a problem and that’s why I see a little incoherence here.


I haven't seen the movie, but if you're speaking of Asian eyelid surgery, this is the most-requested plastic surgery procedure in the world, according to some internet sources. It wasn't invented by the makers of that film. Could the trend be related to the habit some Westerners have of making fun of Asian eyelids? I couldn't say. We could analyze why Michael Jackson has had the surgeries he's had, too. But I think that's beyond the scope of this thread. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting there isn't a great deal to admire about Spanish society, or there is nothing wrong with American or British society, I'd be the first to admit to the dark side of American society and culture (it's in my face every day!). I'm simply addressing what I perceived as a "mini" culture clash which centered around that one photo. In the larger scheme of things, of course, it's very insignificant, but I think it was interesting and worthy of discussion.


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## Polizón

ampurdan said:


> I, myself, found a 2002 James Bond movie much more worrying than this episode. A villain was the son of a Northern Korean President who was ashamed of his race and underwent a surgical operation to look like a fair-haired English nobleman. What kind of message is this film giving? Looking like a Westerner is something Asian people are dying for? Asian, don’t try to usurp the throne of the Westerner in the World? Has anyone protested in the UK? Koreans did, but, at least officially, on other grounds. Apparently the gesture of some foreign basketball players who tried to be nice perhaps in the wrong way is a more serious threat to anti-racism towards Asians. I might be the one with a problem and that’s why I see a little incoherence here.


 
Hola:
Has hecho referencia a UNA película que puede haber herido susceptibilidades, pero existen miles de ellas (hechas en Holliwood, sobre todo) en las que abiertamente "los malvados" son colombianos, árabes, rusos, chinos de europa del este, etc. O como el Código Da Vinci, que sacó roncha a la Iglesia Católica Da para un tema diferente. Pero cada país lo ve desde su propia perspectiva, de acuerdo a sus experiencias y temores. Pero a la vez, cada país sabe hasta dónde puede burlarse de su propia gente. En el Reino Unido se burlan del príncipe y de la reina de manera grotesca, en Estados Unidos hacen lo propio con su presidente y con los candidatos actuales. No creo que eso sea un signo de discriminación, así el presentador sea de raza china, negra o un latinoamericano. Ya lo han dicho por allí, en Europa occidental, en América del Norte y en América Latina hay una mixtura de razas y mezlas para todos los gustos.   
La foto en cuestión no tiene nada de discriminatoria. No hay mala intención detrás de todo esto. Tengo amigos chinos a los que le he preguntado y simplemtne se han reído. Los chinos (los de la misma China)no se han sentido ofendidos. De hecho vi el partido final que disputaron la selección de España con el llamado _Dream Team_ y el coliseo (con mayoría de chinos en él) terminó por apoyar a la selección española, pues jugaron superlativamente.
Eso demuestra que nadie se ha sentido ofendido. Menos todavía en un contexto deportivo, donde prima el sentido de la confraternidad entre pueblos a pesar de la competitividad.
Saludos,
Polizón


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## Orreaga

Polizón said:


> Hola a todos:
> El Perú es uno de los países de América que más tipos de raza tiene. Digamos que hay multiplicidad étnica. Y no solamente eso, sino que hay muy pocas razas que se mantienen "puras". Diría que el 99% de nuestra población es mezclada. Acá se dice que _"el que no tiene de inga, tiene de mandinga"_, para referirnos al hecho de que "todos" los peruanos tenemos en la sangre algo de negro, de chino, o autóctono [léase: descendientes de las razas originarias antes de la llegada de Colón; Incas, por ejemplo].
> Quizá por esa diversidad, la foto del equipo español de baloncesto materia de esta discusión no genera ningún efecto. No crea resentimientos, críticas ni risas tampoco. Lo vemos como un asunto sin importancia.


But neither is Peru a model for race relations. When I lived in Lima I saw that Afro-Peruvians were an underclass. I went to a private school (La Inmaculada) where there were several students with Chinese and Japanese surnames who were treated like everyone else, but no black students and no "cholos".  The cholos and blacks could work as servants for the middle and upper classes. The chola maids in our house were allowed to eat their meals after my host family was finished, and could use the same table and set of plates and utensils that we did. But the black laundry woman was made to eat at a separate folding table in another part of the kitchen where she had to use a plate, cup and utensils that were from the "camping collection" and that were strictly for her use and hers alone, as if she was not much better than a dog. It freaked me out.


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## Polizón

Orreaga said:


> But neither is Peru a model for race relations. When I lived in Lima I saw that Afro-Peruvians were an underclass. I went to a private school (La Inmaculada) where there were several students with Chinese and Japanese surnames who were treated like everyone else, but no black students and no "cholos". The cholos and blacks could work as servants for the middle and upper classes. The chola maids in our house were allowed to eat their meals after my host family was finished, and could use the same table and set of plates and utensils that we did. But the black laundry woman was made to eat at a separate folding table in another part of the kitchen where she had to use a plate, cup and utensils that were from the "camping collection" and that were strictly for her use and hers alone, as if she was not much better than a dog. It freaked me out.


 
Tienes razón Orreaga. Perú no es un modelo en estos asuntos, pero -aunque existe discriminación con los negros y los "cholos" (autóctonos, mayormente de la sierra)- el grupo que los discrimina es minoría en este país. También existe discriminación entre los "cholos acriollados" (de segunda generación en Lima) con los "recién bajados", pero ese es un tema que se va a dar en todas las culturas. A los ojos de un occidental son igualitos, pero entre ellos hay diferencias. Se da en la India, en Irak, se dio en Ruanda y hasta en Estados Unidos con los "white trash". En realidad ya no solamente pasa por un tema de facciones o rasgos físicos, sino de cultura o -más bien- de incultura. A mí me apena mucho esto. No sé si en toda América Latina se dé esto, pero cuando menos en México se evidencia con tan solo ver una telenovela mexicana. Quienes ejercen labores domésticas en una casa sufren una marginación que viene desde los tiempos de los Españoles.
Volviendo al tema de la foto, insisto que no ha habido mala intención detrás de esto. Si la hubiera habido, es evidente que el equipo español no se hubiera prestado a eso. De hecho, Pau Gassol tiene compañeros negros en la NBA, división donde también está Yao Ming, un chino que es muy respetado por sus buenas performances y quien se ha ganado el cariño de los fanáticos de su equipo.
Saludos,
Polizón


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## Outsider

Meeracat said:


> I am not sure that trying to define "real racism" is particularly useful. Racism covers a whole spectrum of beliefs and behaviour. There is no doubt that racism exists in all cultures including the USA and UK, the point however, to paraphrase Marx, is not to contemplate it but to change it. To achieve such a transformation begins with an examination of one's own deeply entrenched attitudes.


Here are a few more deeply entrenched attitudes to (self-)examine: does the same gesture always mean exactly the same in all times and cultures? Are intent and context, cultural and otherwise, totally irrelevant? Are U.S. sensibilities, U.K. sensibilities, or even Chinese or Japanese sensibilities some kind of universal standard of how everyone should react?

For someone from your and Orreaga's culture, stretching one's eyes to mimick the Chinese may be interpreted as backwards ("stuck in the 50s" -- but Orreaga seems to have assumed the American 50s by default, apparently without any thought to the fact that the fifties and the sixties were _very_ different in Spain) and horribly offensive. But perhaps in other cultures it just comes off as childish, silly, and -- because people from other cultures will interpret it more negatively than it was ever intended, as shown by this thread -- ill-advised.


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## Meeracat

Outsider said:


> Here are a few more deeply entrenched attitudes to (self-)examine: does the same gesture always mean exactly the same in all times and cultures? Are intent and context, cultural and otherwise, totally irrelevant? Are U.S. sensibilities, U.K. sensibilities, or even Chinese or Japanese sensibilities some kind of universal standard of how everyone should react?
> 
> For someone from your and Orreaga's culture, stretching one's eyes to mimick the Chinese may be interpreted as backwards ("stuck in the 50s" -- but Orreaga seems to have assumed the American 50s by default, apparently without any thought to the fact that the fifties and the sixties were _very_ different in Spain) and horribly offensive. But perhaps in other cultures it just comes off as childish, silly, and -- because people from other cultures will interpret it more negatively than it was ever intended, as shown by this thread -- ill-advised.


Thus is the beauty of a cultural forum: So that we can learn from each other. It is, of course, difficult to interpret the intention of someone especially across cultural boundaries. It is best to get some kind of explanation about the meaning intended, in this case by a gesture. It is clear that, in this thread, those closest to the culture of those in the photograph dissapprove, but see no racist intent. I am interested therefore to know what was being said by the stretching of the eyes in that manner. To say it was childish and silly is fine but even that does not tell me about the intended meaning. Any clues?


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## Orreaga

Outsider said:


> Here are a few more deeply entrenched attitudes to (self-)examine: does the same gesture always mean exactly the same in all times and cultures? Are intent and context, cultural and otherwise, totally irrelevant? Are U.S. sensibilities, U.K. sensibilities, or even Chinese or Japanese sensibilities some kind of universal standard of how everyone should react?


You're jumping to conclusions, nobody has suggested anything of the kind. For my part, I've only tried to shed some light on why the incident was a "big deal" in US and UK culture, and tried to understand why it was a comparatively minor incident in Spain and other places. But I was unprepared for the kind of resistance to sensitivity that I've encountered here.



Outsider said:


> For someone from your and Orreaga's culture, stretching one's eyes to mimick the Chinese may be interpreted as backwards ("stuck in the 50s" -- but Orreaga seems to have assumed the American 50s by default, apparently without any thought to the fact that the fifties and the sixties were _very_ different in Spain)


You've misquoted me. I made _explicit_ reference to the US in the 50's (before the cultural changes of the 60's), _not_ Spain. I assumed my audience knew about Franco's regime and what was happening in Spain in the 50's and 60's.


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## mirx

Meeracat said:


> I am interested therefore to know what was being said by the stretching of the eyes in that manner. To say it was childish and silly is fine but even that does not tell me about the intended meaning. Any clues?


 
It has already tiredlessly been mentioned by a number of foreros. It was a gesture of solidarity, as if saying "there's some Chinese in us too", or "we too are Chinese", or "Let's go the Chinese way". It was also intended to be funny but not grotesque or rude. And it has also been said, that there are a thousand better ways to say the same. 



Orreaga said:


> You're jumping to conclusions, *nobody has suggested anything of the kind*. .


 
I don't think so, read again the 1st post of this page.


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## Polizón

mirx said:


> It has already tiredlessly been mentioned by a number of foreros. It was a gesture of solidarity, as if saying "there's some Chinese in us too", or "we too are Chinese", or "Let's go the Chinese way". It was also intended to be funny but not grotesque or rude. And it has also been said, that there are a thousand better ways to say the same.


 
Exacto. Si hubieran querido ofender, se hubieran vestido de tibetanos.
Saludos,
Polizón

Nota: Hasta donde sé, Whoopi Goldberg salió a defender a su entonces pareja, Ted Danson por esto. Acá tampoco hubo intención de ofender, sino de burlarse de quienes los "condenaban".


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## Orreaga

mirx said:


> It has already tiredlessly been mentioned by a number of foreros. It was a gesture of solidarity, as if saying "there's some Chinese in us too", or "we too are Chinese", or "Let's go the Chinese way". It was also intended to be funny but not grotesque or rude. And it has also been said, that there are a thousand better ways to say the same.


It's this mixed message that I find confusing. I wonder if you can clarify.

On the one hand, I think we all agree gestures of solidarity are good, great, wonderful. The Spanish athletes think stretching their eyes was a gesture of solidarity with the Chinese and most Spaniards and Latin Americans recognize it as a gesture of solidarity that says "We're a little bit Chinese, too," and defend the practice. Fantastic. 

Yet, there's the little catch that people also tend to agree with, that there are "a thousand better ways" to express solidarity. Huh? This means that out of a thousand and one ways to express solidarity, the athletes chose the worst one?  What kind of solidarity is that, when it was the worst possible choice? 

If it's an expression of solidarity which is understood between the Spanish and Chinese, and the Chinese think it's wonderful and funny and loving, then by all means, the athletes should have walked around Beijing stretching their eyes the whole time, and all the Chinese who saw them would have been delighted to see the athletes stretching their eyes at them. 

But wait a minute, something tells me maybe there is something wrong with this gesture that _is_ recognized in Latin culture, evidenced by the "thousand other ways" statement (and my assumption that the Spanish athletes did not walk around Beijing like that).  Which is it? I don't think you can have it both ways.


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## ernest_

Orreaga said:


> If it's an expression of solidarity which is understood between the Spanish and Chinese, and the Chinese think it's wonderful and funny and loving, then by all means, the athletes should have walked around Beijing stretching their eyes the whole time, and all the Chinese who saw them would have been delighted to see the athletes stretching their eyes at them.



  Now that I think about it, if the picture wasn't meant to reach audiences outside of Spain, as some people here have pointed out, then why bothering taking a picture showing solidarity with the Chinese, if they were not supposed to see the picture in question. It's all very confusing.



> But wait a minute, something tells me maybe there is something wrong with this gesture that _is_ recognized in Latin culture, evidenced by the "thousand other ways" statement (and my assumption that the Spanish athletes did not walk around Beijing like that).  Which is it? I don't think you can have it both ways.


Could it be that mimicking people is a practice that is universally understood as mockery?

I don't know, just guessing...


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## Meeracat

mirx said:


> It has already tiredlessly been mentioned by a number of foreros. It was a gesture of solidarity, as if saying "there's some Chinese in us too", or "we too are Chinese", or "Let's go the Chinese way". It was also intended to be funny but not grotesque or rude. And it has also been said, that there are a thousand better ways to say the same.





mirx said:


> quote]
> 
> Yes, indeed, it has been mentioned by other foreros. I was hoping for a more comprehensive and less contradictory cultural explanation.
> 
> The gesture was either a 'gesture of solidarity' meaning "Let's go the Chinese way" (whatever that means) or it was: “_una tontería_” #4; or “_Se trata de un gesto infantil que pertenece a nuestra cultura_” #11, or “_Unfortunately, this kind of thing is what you can expect from professional athletes in Spain, people who have spent the whole life doing one thing and only one, and have completely neglected their education in the process. Do not take them out of their little field of expertise, if you don't want to be embarrassed by their constant displays of ignorance and bad taste_.”#25.
> 
> I am simply confused as to the fundamental symbolic meaning in Spanish culture of stretching the eyes in the manner of the people in the photograph. Is this a common cultural gesture? Does this always imply ‘solidarity’ or is it ‘an infantile gesture’ etc as suggested by others?
> 
> In some cultures the implication of the gesture is that some form of disrespect was intended (racist or otherwise). If this is not the meaning in Spain then I think that this forum is a good place to bring some clarity to the discussion. So far I am confused by the response. It is obvious that many people are affronted by the suggestion that there was racist intent displayed in the photo and I take Outsider’s point #42 that the symbolic meaning of gestures might differ in other contexts. Indeed it would be surprising if, in a multi-cultural context such as the Olympics, there would not be some cultural misreading.
> 
> So come on, leaving racism to one side, which was it: solidarity or a display of ignorance and bad taste?


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## Chaska Ñawi

Almost all the recent posts have focussed more on personal opinion than on cultural content.  While most have had valuable insights, they have been personal ... not cultural.  

Thank you for your participation and collegiality in this thread.  It has been very interesting to follow.  However, if it is to remain open, posts must include more cultural insight/perspective than has been the case lately.

Thank you for your understanding.


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## mirx

Meeracat said:


> mirx said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has already tiredlessly been mentioned by a number of foreros. It was a gesture of solidarity, as if saying "there's some Chinese in us too", or "we too are Chinese", or "Let's go the Chinese way". It was also intended to be funny but not grotesque or rude. And it has also been said, that there are a thousand better ways to say the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mirx said:
> 
> 
> 
> quote]
> 
> 
> 
> So come on, leaving racism to one side, which was it: solidarity or a display of ignorance and bad taste?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Both, and here is why?
> 
> If the Spanish people had been smarter and did a bit research as how that gesture may have been perceived by the Chinese and other cultures apparently, they would have avoided it.
> 
> So if we regard lack of knowledge as ignorance, then yes, the Spanish did this because of  ignorance.
> 
> But they also did it out of solidarity: "We are part of China", "Look at how Chinese we are".
> 
> Of course, you may not understand this as simple as it is and my want to look for sided connotations where there are non. There is no hidden agenda and the gesture is free of any racist implications.
> 
> I have now clear that this is ill-interpreted by other cultures and so will avoid it, but I am also sure that the Spaniards didn't mean to be offensive.
Click to expand...


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## ernest_

Meeracat said:


> I am simply confused as to the fundamental symbolic meaning in Spanish culture of stretching the eyes in the manner of the people in the photograph. Is this a common cultural gesture? Does this always imply ‘solidarity’ or is it ‘an infantile gesture’ etc as suggested by others?



In Spain, it's just like everywhere else, it certainly doesn't imply solidarity.
On one hand, as I said before, mimicking and making caricatures of people is a form of mockery. Children do it all the time to wind each other up.
On the other hand, if you see a child stretching their eyes it might mean that they pretend to be Chinese, and it may be done with no harm intended. However, it is a childish thing to do, and it is ill-advised for a grown-up adult to do it, as it may be considered racist, because you are focusing too much attention on one physical trait that somehow makes this "race" distinct. It would be rude even for a child to do it in front of an Asian, and he would be told not to do such things, and it would not be hard for him to understand why. This my understanding of things.


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## Lusitania

When I first saw it I thought that it could be a mockery or maybe something like "in Rome be Roman". 
In general, in online comments people just found it silly or funny and that Chinese were taking it too seriously.

As a little girl I would do that a lot and my parents would correct me and tell me not to. Portugal had a close relation with Chinese, namely from Macao and of course that was seen as bad calling someone a "potatoe nose" or something like that. 

It's good that such situations are discussed and that we may do it in a constructive way and learn more about cultural differences.


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## shoam

Como para que aquellos que insisten en la cuestión de mal gusto o corrección política hacia otras culturas, me permito un comentario. Mi intención no es sino la de expresar una realidad que tal vez les de una idea de cómo son las cosas en Latinoamérica.

  No puedo ni llegar a imaginarme a una persona de Latinoamérica (y que viva en Latinoamérica) que pueda llegar a tomarse en serio este incidente. Creo no equivocarme si afirmo que la mayoría diría que se trata de una verdadera exageración.

  Trabajo en un hospital de niños como intérprete en USA y es muy común el encuentro de culturas en este sentido. Por ejemplo, una mamá dice que su hijo esta demasiado gordo y como mi obligación es interpretar lo que se dice, digo “_he is too fat_”. La persona que no habla español y lo escucha, no puede seguir la conversación con los mismos términos. Tiene que usar la palabra que es correcta. Dicen que el niño “is too big”. Más de una vez, cuando escuchan la palabra “fat”, se ríen con cierto nerviosismo, como si proviniera de un niño que aún no sabe darle el uso correcto a las palabras.

  Cuando explico estas situaciones en Argentina, en las que hacer un gesto de imitación de asiáticos en USA, puede ser ofensivo, hay amplio consenso: son unos exagerados.
  Y tengo que agregar que en Argentina hubo un incidente parecido. Bueno, el incidente no fue en Argentina, lo fue para otros, los exagerados.
Aquí está el artículo de _The Telegraph_

Personalmente, considero un poco cerrado el hecho de que haya personas que no sepan ver más allá de sus narices y consideren equivocado que otros (culturas o países) pretendan que todos vean las cosas tal como las ven ellos y quien no lo haga está equivocado. Pero claro, esto es un tema demasiado grande como para sintetizarlo de manera tan simplista.

 Casi me puedo imaginar cual sería el gran titular, la gran noticia en Sudamérica:
FOTO TONTA Y DE ESCASA IMPORTANCIA CAUSA GRAN REVUELO EN INGLATERRA Y ESTADOS UNIDOS


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## elirlandes

Attitudes to race and what racism means are *TOTALLY* different in Spain to most other European countries. By way of example, the British black Formula 1 racing driver, Lewis Hamilton was caught in a similar discussion in February 2008 when a number of racing fans in Spain painted themselves black and wore T-Shirts saying they were his family.

In the UK, this was seen as DEEPLY offensive [I would of course agree...], and there was talk of Spain losing the right to host Formula 1 races. In Spain however, very few people seemed to think this was in the least bit offensive, and many were confused about the controversy.

My experience in Spain is that Spanish people genuinely are innocent/naive about these issues, and it would not be unusual for somebody who is not in the least bit racist to dress up like this because it is just a bit of fun, in the same way they might wear any other costume. It would not surprise me in the least that the people in this photo are in fact great supporters of Hamilton (whereas, no supporter of a black sportstar in most other countries would do the same... Imagine a white person from the USA doing this because they are fans of Michael Jordan...).

Much of the not-thought-out, stereotypical racism of ignorance can still be found in Spain. By ignorance, I mean, simply not knowing as a result of having no contact with people of other races. My experience is that this is not with malicious intent, but can be offensive nontheless. 

When this is pointed out, the response is often, "how can I be offending somebody, if I genuinely do not mean to offend?".

The racism debate in most countries that have a greater mix of population is focused differently. What constitutes racism in the USA, the UK etc. is defined by those that may feel they have been wronged. In Spanish culture, what constitutes racism is still deemed to be defined by the person making the comment/gesture.

Another example is the recent Spanish soccer coach, Luis Aragonés, who referred to a french player as a "black sh1t". This was not as controversial in Spain as it would be in other countries because it was deemed that he was simply calling Thierry Henry a "sh1t", and it so happens that the guy is also black. In every other country in the world, he would have been skinned, roasted alive and jailed, but in Spain, this was not even enough for him to be fired as coach of the national football team.
Truth be told, I am not sure that Aragonés is in fact a racist, but culturally, the language that he is prepared to use about black people is culturally totally unacceptable in other countries. To that point, Ron Atkinson, a famous British coach & TV commentator said something similar on air by accident a few years ago, and he was summarily fired from the TV channel and has not worked in the sport since.


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## chics

In Spain and other European countries being racist is precisely avoiding the use of expressions as _black_, _fat_, etc. For us USA is seen as one of the most racist countries in the world because we hear in all their films that people there is always saiying "de color", "corpulento", etc. To us these type of reactions of USA and Uk make us think that these countries are really very racists.



> Casi me puedo imaginar cual sería el gran titular, la gran noticia en Sudamérica:
> FOTO TONTA Y DE ESCASA IMPORTANCIA CAUSA GRAN REVUELO EN INGLATERRA Y ESTADOS UNIDOS


Bueno, este fue más o menos el titular en los periódicos de aquí...


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## Agró

Coincido en que el gesto de la fotografía fue una tontería sin importancia y, por supuesto, sin tinte racista. La importancia se la otorgan algunos medios de comunicación con sus corrientes de opinión siempre sesgadas. En todo caso debo reconocer que en España tenemos una actitud todavía demasiado paternalista hacia otras culturas (recordemos cómo denominamos a africanos o asiáticos, "negritos" y "chinitos", respectivamente). Al fin y al cabo, todavía subyace en nuestra actitud el hecho de haber sido un gran imperio en el pasado, tal como ocurrió después con Gran Bretaña o Francia, y actualmente con Estados Unidos. La preponderancia cultural actual es la anglosajona y observo frecuentemente actitudes de desprecio por parte de los anglosajones hacia otras culturas, por ejemplo cuando hordas de turistas británicos o estadounidenses aterrizan por estas tierras. Piénsese en que la mayor parte del tiempo lo pasan bebiendo, tomando el sol, y comprando curiosos suvenirs, como sombreros mejicanos, lo cual sólo indica que son personas ignorantes, no racistas. Lo mismo puede aplicarse a cualquier cultura pretendidamente "superior" a otra, y aquí incluyo a españoles, franceses, británicos, americanos, holandeses, portugueses..., etc. En definitiva, creo que se trata más de ignorancia que de verdadero racismo.


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## Neuromante

Francamente.
¿La forma de los ojos orientales es acaso un signo de inferioridad? *NO* ¿Verdad? ¿Entonces como puede ser un gesto racista?

A mí lo que me parece racista es esa acusación, pero no con respecto a los españoles del equipo, si no contra los chinos. Parece como si el que acusa pensara que esos ojos son alguna clase de minusvalía o algo parecido, que no debieran ser señalados.


Además ¿Alguien ha visto los estereotipos de las películas de Hollywood acerca de cualquier otro país o cultura? ¿El egipto de Indiana Jones? ¿El "aeropuerto internacional" colombiano de Tras el Corazón Verde? ¿La Sevilla de no recuerdo qué serie (Quizás El Equipo A) llena de mejicanos que para colmo llevan bigotes enormes? ¿Cualquier estereotipo de esos? Esos sí son racistas.


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## Mate

*Nota del moderador*:  


Debido a que la naturaleza misma de un tema como este, más que a discutir aspectos culturales invita a dar opiniones de índole personal, el hilo permanecerá cerrado. 

Desde ya, nuestras disculpas por no haberlo advertido antes y gracias a todos por su comprensión.


*Hilo cerrado*.


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