# en berne



## bnickson22

hi everyone,

I was just wondering whether any of ou could tell me how to translate this sentence and in particular the en berne part....

Des élus ont dénoncé lundi la mise en berne des drapeaux de la republique en l'honneur d'un chef religieux.

Many thanks for your time


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## Stefan Ivanovich

at half-mast

Stef


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## bnickson22

Thanks, but I still can't work out how you would put that into the context of this sentence....


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## kiwi-di

"... that flags will be flown at half mast in honour of ... "


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## scottwaller

There is also a figurative use: 'Les oranges mettent l'Italie en berne' can somebody explain this?
NB: 'Les oranges' = Holland, it's about football & there is a pun because the match took place in Berne).


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## LittleBen

It's a pun so it's a little bit hard to translate.
But the global meaning is "Holland owned Italy"


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## sound shift

Holland beat Italy yesterday. I suppose it means that Holland cut Italy down to size, as if they half-masted the Italian flag.


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## Horatio Barbadoes

Maybe:

On Monday elected officials denounced flying the French flag at half mast in honour of a religious leader.. 

HB


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## Aoyama

> There is also a figurative use: 'Les oranges mettent l'Italie en berne' can somebody explain this?
> NB: 'Les oranges' = Holland, it's about football & there is a pun because the match took place in Berne).


En berne here means "out of work", "broken". Lexically there is a difference between "*mettre *en berne", that would normally apply _only_ to flags and "*être* en berne", which could apply to flags (les drapeaux sont/ont été mis en berne) but also could be used as in  " ma télé est en berne" (my TV set is on the blink) etc.


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## Horatio Barbadoes

*Note Italy v Holland:* I think it simply means that Italy is in mourning after being so soundly beaten. The flying of the flag at half mast is used to mark the death of someone, in this case Italian football. 
HB


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## boterham

Hello  ,
Another example I have is "le pouvoir d'achat des français est en berne" meaning their buying power is reduced. 
How would you translate that please? I am not sure the "half-mast" thing would work here??


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## Horatio Barbadoes

Maybe see Aoyama's explication Boterham. Note: pouvoir d'achat =purchasing power
HB


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## boterham

Horatio Barbadoes said:


> Maybe see Aoyama's explication Boterham. Note: pouvoir d'achat =purchasing power
> HB


Thanks HB! So le pouvoir d'achat des Français est en berne = the purchasing power of the French is out of work/broken/on the blink. Is this OK??

By the way, my dictionary gives both buying power AND purchasing power for pouvoir d'achat. Is one better than the other? I know buying is less formal than purchasing in general. Is this the only difference or is there a regional difference?


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## Arrius

In England one can aso talk about somebody's trousers or socks being "at half mast".
Can you do the same with _en berne_?  I don't think this is irrelevant.


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## Horatio Barbadoes

Hi boterham, 

I think *purchasing power* is better as it seems to be used in economic reviews etc...alors,

french purchasing power has fallen/decreased/declined ....

Or: the decline/fall in French purchasing power....

HB


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## Aoyama

> French purchasing power has fallen/decreased/declined ....
> the decline/fall in French purchasing power....


gives the general idea for 





> "le pouvoir d'achat des Français est en berne"


it could also be : French purchasing power is stagnating/not going anywhere/in bad shape/losing ground ...


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## EngrProf

From the Vendée Globe:  "Il y a quatre ans déjà, il avait du quitter le Vendée Globe, sa quille en berne."  So this sailor had to quit this sailing race because the bulb on his keel got broken.


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## Aoyama

True, in that case "broken" would carry the meaning.


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## The MightyQ

By the way, purists may point out that "half mast" refers to flags on board ships, the correct term for land-based flags being "half staff". 
But I rarely see half staff unless it's very formal, or used by the military..


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## Arrius

Arrius said:


> In England one can aso talk about somebody's trousers or socks being "at half mast".
> Can you do the same with _en berne_? I don't think this is irrelevant.


But can some native francophone answer this supplementary question which I asked over six months ago? It must be acceptable or it would have been zapped by a mod.


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## fetchezlavache

No, we don't use 'en berne' about socks or trousers.


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## Arrius

Merci, *fetchezlavache*.


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## Aoyama

> No, we don't use 'en berne' about socks or trousers.


That would depend .
You could say "mon pantalon est en berne / mes chaussettes sont en bernes" meaning (as a "literary creation") that your trousers or your socks are in bad shape, having holes etc.


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## Arrius

_Socks at half-mast_ just implies that they are sagging  and need to be pulled up (retroussées), not that they are damaged in any way, and I don't really see why _en berne_ as a literary creation should mean that, unless the idea is of being in mourning (en deuil) for the ruined garment, which meaning is not included in the use of "at half-mast" as applied to socks or trousers.


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## Aoyama

> _Socks at half-mast_ just implies that they are sagging and need to be pulled up (retroussées), not that they are damaged in any way,


true in English, a bit different in French.
You would then say : "ma télé est en berne" = my TV set is on the blink (broken). The "mourning" part ("en deuil", correctly) being a matter of perception (you could be mourning the fact that you are deprived of your TV set ...).


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## c1wang

Arrius said:


> But can some native francophone answer this supplementary question which I asked over six months ago? It must be acceptable or it would have been zapped by a mod.


 
I can't answer it. I do have a question though: What does it mean that  
"somebody's trousers or socks being at half mast" ? Thanks.


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## Aoyama

> What does it mean that
> "somebody's trousers or socks being at half mast" ?


Rolled up somehow. But this expression is not standard.


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## c1wang

Aoyama said:


> Rolled up somehow. But this expression is not standard.


Oh, I should have guessed it; it is kind of literal meaning. Thank you!


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## kiwi-di

Aoyama said:


> Rolled up somehow. But this expression is not standard.


It might not be "standard",  but it was very common in my youth. 

It actually means that they are a bit short - only reaching to ankle level, rather than covering the shoe.  Nowdays a lot of people wear trousers at that length, but 40/50 years ago a man who wore them like that was considered a bit odd!


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## c1wang

kiwi-di said:


> It might not be "standard", but it was very common in my youth.
> 
> It actually means that they are a bit short - only reaching to ankle level, rather than covering the shoe. Nowdays a lot of people wear trousers at that length, but 40/50 years ago a man who wore them like that was considered a bit odd!


That makes sense too. Thanks.


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## kiwi-di

Seeing this is a French/English forum, and your question probably belongs in an English only one , it would be interesting to know whether the French have/had an expression for trousers worn at what we referred to as "half mast" as explained in my reply above.

I imagine they are not described as being _en-berne_.


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