# Ogenblik - point in time



## pickarooney

I've asked a few native speakers to translate a small passage of text into Dutch and something strikes me as off about the following. I know I'm wrong, as regards usage, as three people have said the same thing, but I'm just curious as to whether my gut feeling has any justification.

'...from the moment he arrives...'
'...vanaf het ogenblik dat hij aankomt...'

For me, an _ogenblik _should be a period of time, very brief, corresponding to the time it takes to shut and open an eye. A moment can be the same thing, but in this case it marks a specific point in time rather than a lapse. 

just a moment - this is a genuine _ogenblik_
from that moment on - this is a point on a timeline with no duration, for me a '_moment_' in Dutch. 

Am I on my own?


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## Joannes

For me they're pretty much interchangable. Except maybe something like *in één ogenblik waren de appels van de tafel verdwenen* where the expression with *moment* would perhaps rather be *van het ene moment op het andere*, which does seem to correspond to your gut feeling.


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## Hitchhiker

It does seem to have a bit broader meaning than a "blink of an eye" does in English. The phrase, "van het ogenblik" can be English "of the moment" and maybe "at the moment". " The star (actor, singer, player) of the moment".

The adverb "ogenblikkelijk" would be closer to the English "in a blink of an eye" or instantly or instantaneously.


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## Suehil

Both are perfectly possible, but I think that 'vanaf het ogenblik...' is more common in spoken Dutch and 'vanaf het moment...' more common in literature.


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## Vache qui rit

Just out of curiosity: I know it's not customary in Dutch to pronounce the N at the end of a plural or infinitive. Would you pronounce it in this word, since "ogen" is a plural but only half of the word?


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## Frank06

Hi,


Vache qui rit said:


> Just out of curiosity: I know it's not customary in Dutch to pronounce the N at the end of a plural or infinitive. Would you pronounce it in this word, since "ogen" is a plural but only half of the word?


I think a lot of people say something as "oge*m*blik". So, no, -n- doesn't get deleted, but under influence of the following -b-, it's pronounced (or *can* be pronounced) as an -m.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Peterdg

Suehil said:


> Both are perfectly possible, but I think that 'vanaf het ogenblik...' is more common in spoken Dutch and 'vanaf het moment...' more common in literature.


 
Hmm. I would say just the opposite. I think it's a Belgian/Netherlands difference. (I'm a Belgian Dutch speaker)


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## Suehil

Highly possible; Belgian Dutch often sounds very literary to my ears.


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## Timidinho

Peterdg said:


> Hmm. I would say just the opposite. I think it's a Belgian/Netherlands difference. (I'm a Belgian Dutch speaker)


Hm, no, I think you're right. I always use _and_ hear "moment". "Ogenblik" sounds old-fashioned to me.
I'm from the Netherlands by the way.


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## Brownpaperbag

I would say 'moment' as well, I'm from the Netherlands. I think in Holland it's more common to use 'een ogenblikje alstublieft' - 'just a moment, please'.


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## Grytolle

Frank06 said:


> I think a lot of people say something as "oge*m*blik". So, no, -n- doesn't get deleted, but under influence of the following -b-, it's pronounced (or *can* be pronounced) as an -m.


The m can probably be pronounced because ogenblik is dialectally masculine (like "blik")


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## Joannes

Grytolle said:


> The m can probably be pronounced because ogenblik is dialectally masculine (like "blik")


In which dialect?

In my dialect it's the same as in Standard Dutch:
*het blik* 'tin'
*de blik* 'glance'
*het ogenblik* 'moment'

Still, I'm interested in what you are saying. Is a _tussen-n_ more often pronounced in _tussentaal_ if the second part of a compound is masculine (and the whole compound is masculine)? Examples?


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## Grytolle

Joannes said:


> In which dialect?


Antwerps (and several other Brabantic dialects, I'd be surprised if Brussel was different from the rest), Gents (volgens de Gruyter) - probably other east Flemish too but I don't have that book here... West-Flemish too (according to a quick search on their wikipedia voor "ogenblik"



Joannes said:


> In my dialect it's the same as in Standard Dutch:
> *het blik* 'tin'
> *de blik* 'glance'
> *het ogenblik* 'moment'


And you're certain that you haven't just picked up on the imported gender?



Joannes said:


> Still, I'm interested in what you are saying. Is a _tussen-n_ more often pronounced in _tussentaal_ if the second part of a compound is masculine (and the whole compound is masculine)? Examples


Yes, because of Brabantic (and other?) dialects' gender congruence (n always pronounced or added before vowels, and before b, d, t, h if the whole compound is masculine)
=> *'t ogeblik
=> den ogenblik


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## Joannes

Grytolle said:


> And you're certain that you haven't just picked up on the imported gender?


No, like a few others, I don't _say_ ogenblik very often, tbh. But when I do, it has neuter gender. I suppose I could have picked it up from Standard Dutch, but in that case, I'm sure that there are a _lot _of people who have. Honestly, *nen ogenblik* or *den ogenblik* sound really strange to me. Maybe they don't for the other Flemings around here?

*[Still talking about dialect here.*
*F06]*


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## Frank06

Joannes said:


> No, like a few others, I don't _say_ ogenblik very often, tbh. But when I do, it has neuter gender. I suppose I could have picked it up from Standard Dutch, but in that case, I'm sure that there are a _lot _of people who have. Honestly, *nen ogenblik* or *den ogenblik* sound really strange to me. Maybe they don't for the other Flemings around here?


In my dialect I'd say "_oep den_ ogemblik", but 'den ogenlik' (without the prepsition) sounds a bit weird to me too. I'd never say "Nen ogemblikse, astemblieft", but "Een ogemblikske, astemblieft".

Groetjes,

Frank

*[Still talking about dialect here.*
*F06]*


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## Peterdg

Joannes said:


> No, like a few others, I don't _say_ ogenblik very often, tbh. But when I do, it has neuter gender. I suppose I could have picked it up from Standard Dutch, but in that case, I'm sure that there are a _lot _of people who have. Honestly, *nen ogenblik* or *den ogenblik* sound really strange to me. Maybe they don't for the other Flemings around here?


Also for me: "*nen ogenblik* " and "*den ogenblik" *sound strange. And, also gender is neutral for my language feeling.

*[Still talking about dialect here.*
*F06]*


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## Grytolle

Frank06 said:


> In my dialect I'd say "_oep den_ ogemblik", but 'den ogenlik' (without the prepsition) sounds a bit weird to me too. I'd never say "Nen ogemblikse, astemblieft", but "Een ogemblikske, astemblieft".
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


 
een oge(m)blikske is uiteraard onzijdig hè 

Dat met "oep den oëgenblik" doet me denken aan "de moment" dat vooral nog voorkomt in _'t is de moment_ (is mijn indruk).

*[Still talking about dialect here.*
*F06]*


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## Frank06

Grytolle said:


> een oge(m)blikske is uiteraard onzijdig hè


Absoluut, mijn fout...
Maar ik denk dan toch eerder aan "Een ogenblik" dan aan "Nen ogenblik", hoewel ik niet meer zo zeker ben . 

Groetjes,

Frank

*[Still talking about dialect here.*
*F06]*


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## Joannes

Grytolle said:


> Dat met "oep den oëgenblik" doet me denken aan "de moment" dat vooral nog voorkomt in _'t is de moment_ (is mijn indruk)


Ah, dat wou ik nog zeggen: *moment* is wel mannelijk in dialect. Voor de moment, 't is de moment, gene moment zonder.., der komt nog wel ne moment da..

En zoals gezegd zeg ik ook eerder *moment* dan *ogenblik*.


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## pickarooney

But "op _dit _moment", no?


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## Joannes

Sorry, I admit it wasn't very clear but since Grytolle's post #11 we've been talking about the forms (and genders) in Belgian Dutch dialects.

In Standard Dutch, *moment* and *ogenblik* both have neuter gender, so they take *het* as an article, have adjectives with neuter declension, ...

So,* op dit moment* 'currently / at this point, then' is perfect Standard Dutch. In Antwerp dialect (and some others) people would say *voor de moment* for 'currently' and *op dieje moment* for 'at this point, then'.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## Grytolle

Joannes said:


> In Antwerp dialect (and some others)


Apparently "some others" is/used to be all of Flanders
WNT:


> MOMENT, znw. onz. ; in Z.-N. m.


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## Joannes

I'm not surprised, but I didn't know, so I didn't venture claiming that.


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## Frank06

pickarooney said:


> But "op _dit _moment", no?





Joannes said:


> Sorry, I admit it wasn't very clear but since Grytolle's post #11 we've been talking about the forms (and genders) in Belgian Dutch dialects.


*My mistake.*
*I love posts about dialects, but pickarooney's post indicated indeed that we should make it more clear when we're discussing non-standard varieties (as stated in the DF rules, which I forgot myself ).*
*I added a small moderator's notes in a few posts above.*

*Groetjes,*

*Frank*
*Moderator*


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## pickarooney

It's good to know  The piece I'm getting translated is for a Belgian audience, but I take it not all Belgian dialects vary from 'standard' Dutch and it won't be a problem if 'het moment' is used? (realistically, I should trust the translator's instincts!)


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## Ktke

Could 'dieje moment' be used to express a moment that lies more in the past, as opposed to 'dit moment'? (toen tov nu)

I could picture myself saying: 'Toen op dieje moment ni, maar op dees moment wel' (I'm from Mechelen). In standard Dutch I guess that should be: 'Toen, op dat moment niet, maar (nu) op dit moment wel'.


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## Grytolle

pickarooney said:


> It's good to know  The piece I'm getting translated is for a Belgian audience, but I take it not all Belgian dialects vary from 'standard' Dutch and it won't be a problem if 'het moment' is used? (realistically, I should trust the translator's instincts!)


They do, but that doesn't mean that the Belgians themselves consider it correct in their standard Dutch 




Ktke said:


> I could picture myself saying: 'Toen op dieje moment ni, maar op dees moment wel' (I'm from Mechelen). In standard Dutch I guess that should be: 'Toen, op dat moment niet, maar (nu) op dit moment wel'.


No idea. Interesting that you use that second moment feminine or neuter ("dees" instead of "deze(n)") though


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## Joannes

pickarooney said:


> It's good to know  The piece I'm getting translated is for a Belgian audience, but I take it not all Belgian dialects vary from 'standard' Dutch and it won't be a problem if 'het moment' is used? (realistically, I should trust the translator's instincts!)


We should probably have a separate, detailed thread for this but we don't since it's quite natural for all Flemings:

In Flanders people write (Belgian) Standard Dutch. At home or in smaller, familiar communities, people speak dialects (there are three dialect groups, all of which cross the Belgian-Dutch border, but there are - and perhaps more and more - pan Flemish characteristics to be contrasted to the variants of Dutch in the Netherlands). In more formal situations, people (try to) speak (Belgian) Standard Dutch or, depending on context, something in between dialect and standard language: _tussentaal_. (There is basically a dialect continuum ranging from truly dialectal to strict Standard Dutch, the outer ends of which nowadays hardly anyone ever speaks or even masters.) Belgian people do not generally _write_ in their dialect, except in chatspeak, or in these forums, to indicate and discuss what we _say_. 

Therefore, not only is it no problem to use *het moment*. It is what you _should_ write, except if you want to speak or write dialect (but then the whole context has to be dialectal obviously).

Hope this helps.


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## Greetd

Frank06 said:


> I think a lot of people say something as "oge*m*blik". So, no, -n- doesn't get deleted, but under influence of the following -b-, it's pronounced (or *can* be pronounced) as an -m.





Grytolle said:


> The m can probably be pronounced because ogenblik is dialectally masculine (like "blik")


What Frank says is right, but it has nothing to do with the whole discussion about gender ensueing after that. The -n- is pronounced because it is in the middle of a word. The /n/ sound changes to /m/ under the influence of the /b/, this is called assimilation; /m/ and /b/ are both bilabial sounds (produced with the lips).
The gender discussion still is interesting, though.


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## Grytolle

Greetd said:


> The -n- is pronounced because it is in the middle of a word.


That would as a rule only be true in a few loanwords... I'm too tired to come up with any better example than "elentriek", right now, which is 1) non-standard and 2) dialectally masculine


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## Joannes

Greet, it's different for compounds, as you know. Few people would pronounce the /n/ in *kippensoep*.

(Mind also for example that auslaut devoicing still applies in compounds: I'm sorry I can't come up with a better example right now but *huisverkoper* has [sf], while it's [z] in *huizen*.)


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## Grytolle

Joannes said:


> Greet, it's different for compounds, as you know. Few people would pronounce the /n/ in *kippensoep*.


There's indeed no reason why there would be an n there in the pronounciation



> (Mind also for example that auslaut devoicing still applies in compounds: I'm sorry I can't come up with a better example right now but *huisverkoper* has [sf], while it's [z] in *huizen*.)


handdoek (which is with [t] in all of Flanders)


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## Frank06

*Hi,*

*We'd highly appreciate it if the discussion could be brought back to the original topic of this thread, viz. the difference between 'moment' and 'ogenblik'.*

*We discussed the pronunciation of -en and -en- already a lot of times in various other threads (I almost wrote ad nauseam).*

*Assimilation in Dutch (as e.g. in the case of 'handdoek') could be an interesting topic for a new thread.*

*Groetjes,*

*Frank*
*Moderator DF*


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