# Toalla - pronunciation



## Smitch18

Why does the first a in this word sound different from the second a?

¿Por qué suena diferente la primara a en esta palabra a la segunda a?


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## Agró

Different..., how? Please explain.


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## Toxicus Prime

The pronunciation in both is technically the same because in Spanish does'n exist difference in pronunciation of the same vowels. In that case, the first "a" sounds different because its pronunciation is most strong due to the intonation: \to·aaaa·ya\


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## jmx

In Spanish, final unstressed vowels tend to be centralized, so it's possible, for example, that the final vowel in 'toalla' sounds to an English speaker closer to the vowel in 'cut' than to those in 'cat' or 'car'.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that in certain dialects, for example in Central Mexico, unstressed vowels can become completely centralized, that is, pronounced as a "schwa".


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## Agró

/to'aʎɐ/
a: *a media*, aparece normalmente en español en sílaba acentuada.
ɐ: *a relajada*, aparece principalmente en posición final, grave, ante pausa.

(T. Navarro Tomás, Manual de pronunciación española. Madrid, 1982.)


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## gato radioso

In my ears both "a" have the same sound. I guess you might hear some difference, because in that word, the stress is on the first "a".

In fact, I would have thought that, as an English speaker, the most difficult sound here would be the "ll", which is so difficult to get the hang of for non-native Spanish speakers.


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## TheCrociato91

Smitch18 said:


> Why does the first a in this word sound different from the second a?



You must have pretty good hearing if you're able to easily distinguish an *open* *central* vowel [ä] (first "a") from a *near-open* *central* vowel [ɐ] (final "a"). Unless you're only perceiving the first "a" as _clearer_ because it is actually stressed, as others have pointed out, rather than distinguishing the two sounds in terms of _quality_.


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## gato radioso

TheCrociato91 said:


> You must have pretty good hearing if you're able to easily distinguish an *open* *central* vowel [ä] (first "a") from a *near-open* *central* vowel [ɐ] (final "a"). Unless you're only perceiving the first "a" as _clearer_ because it is actually stressed, as others have pointed out, rather than distinguishing the two sounds in terms of _quality_.


In fact, to tell you the truth, I am a native speaker (although not a scholar in phonetics) and it´d never got across my head that these two "a" were different sounds.


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## TheCrociato91

gato radioso said:


> In fact, to tell you the truth, I am a native speaker (although not a scholar in phonetics) and it´d never got across my head that these two "a" were different sounds.



I was never taught this particular instance when I took my Spanish phonetics exam at college. Although I did study on various texts including a book by Navarro Tomás.  

I think this is one of the cases where the final unstressed "a" _*can*_ be pronounced as lax (_relajada_), as opposed to _*is always*_ pronounced as such. But even if the latter were the case, the difference between the two sounds would still be very small.


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## gato radioso

TheCrociato91 said:


> I was never taught this particular instance when I took my Spanish phonetics exam at college. Although I did study on various texts including a book by Navarro Tomás.
> 
> I think this is one of the cases where the final unstressed "a" _*can*_ be pronounced as lax (_relajada_), as opposed to _*is always*_ pronounced as such. But even if the latter were the case, the difference between the two sounds would still be very small.



Yes, I would have expected more problems for an English speaker about that messy sound "ll" (not in your case, as I asume you are a native Italian speaker, and I think you have that sound in Italian just like us, or a very similar one at least)


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## Smitch18

Is it possible that the letters 'all' in toalla are making a dipthong as in "Ay!" or like the ai in 'aislamiento'? 'Toaya' would create a dipthong very similar to the letter I in English. Also, in my experience y and ll are pronounced the same in most parts of the Spanish-speaking world, despite the differentiation made in books on pronunciation and grammar.


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## TheCrociato91

Smitch18 said:


> Is it possible that the letters 'all' in toalla are making a dipthong as in "Ay!" or like the ai in 'aislamiento'? 'Toaya' would create a dipthong very similar to the letter I in English.



Are you sure you mean the letters "all" and not "lla" (final syllable)?
If the "ll" is articulated as an approxiament [j], then one might consider the final syllable [jä] ~ [jɐ] as a _diptongo creciente_, similar to that in "rubia" ['ru.β̞jä].

Since "toalla" is made up of three syllables (to.a.lla), "all" can't be considered a diphthong, since a diphthong is defined as "a combination of two adjacent vowel sounds within the same syllable" (source: Wikipedia; emphasis added).


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## Smitch18

Good point. But could the syllables be distributed as TO-AY-A? Maybe I've just been saying it wrong for 30 years, which is entirely possible. If I try to say the word pronouncing that first A as a pure vowel sound it just sounds wrong to me. What I say and think I hear is TO-AY-A or TO-AI-YA. Though I do take your point about the LL not being able to belong to both the second and third syllable.


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## Smitch18

Just been listening to the pronunciations here on WR and the first A does sound like a pure vowel sound; but when I try to say it like that it just sounds Japanese. Anyway, I think I have probably been saying it wrong for thirty years (TO-AI-YA), which is disappointing. Nevertheless, I think the two As sound different and the kind foreros here have enlightened me regarding the existence of a centralized or relaxed or schwa sound in a final unstressed A. Others suggest it is the same sound, just one stressed and the other not. But as JMX suggests above, the first A seems more of an /ɑː/ (despite my thinking it was more of an /aɪ/), while the second sounds more of an /ə/. Maybe it just depends on how much energy you have that day. More energy = /ɑː/, less energy = /ə/. Is it possible that in common speech there is a TOWYA thing going on, as in CWETE (cohete)?


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## TheCrociato91

Smitch18 said:


> But could the syllables be distributed as TO-AY-A?


I doubt it. But then again, I'm no native speaker.



Smitch18 said:


> What I say and think I hear is TO-AY-A or TO-AI-YA


I think that, since "ll" _may_ be realized as an approximant [j] (semi-consonant), then you might perceive it as belonging to the previous syllable, given that its pronunciation is extremely quick. So, in a way, perceving "toalla" [to'ä.jɐ] as TO-AY-A (roughly:[to'äi̯.ɐ]; where [i̯] is a semi-vowel), is possible. I guess. 
Whereas I don't think that TO-AI-YA [to'äi̯.jɐ]is a common way to say "toalla", at all. Do wait for native speakers to confirm this, though.



Smitch18 said:


> the first A seems more of an /ɑː/ (despite my thinking it was more of an /aɪ/), while the second sounds more of an /ə/.


Well, not to be pedantic, but an *open* *central* vowel [ä] (first "a") doesn't exactly sound like your usual "English a" [ɑ], which is farther back in the mouth (open *back *vowel). I think you're better off visualizing the [ä] sound as a [aɪ] diphthong *without *the second element.
As for the "last a" in "toalla", it's not exactly a schwa [ə] either, since the schwa is bang in the center of the mouth (mid central vowel), whereas the [ɐ] is still central but lower in the mouth, *much *closer to the central [ä]. So I suggest you simply focus on getting the central [ä] sound right, which is the most common realization of the /a/ phoneme in Spanish.


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## gato radioso

I guess that nobody would have any problem to be understood by pronouncing that tricky "ll" as in the English word "milionaire". 
I say this just as a simple tip to stick to for those who are a bit unsure about this sound, I don't have any special qualification in phonetics beyond being a native speaker. 
I know that in many places like Argentina they would say a sound closer to "gioia" or "Jack", but I'm sure there aren't special difficulties with this.


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## Toxicus Prime

Smitch18 said:


> But could the syllables be distributed as TO-AY-A? Maybe I've just been saying it wrong for 30 years, which is entirely possible. If I try to say the word pronouncing that first A as a pure vowel sound it just sounds wrong to me. What I say and think I hear is TO-AY-A or TO-AI-YA. Though I do take your point about the LL not being able to belong to both the second and third syllable.



Is true that the sound is similar to /TO·AI·A/, but saying /AIA/ very very quickly. But the syllables are distributed as /TO·A·YA/, not /TO·AY·A/.

The sound of LL and Y when precede a vowel) in Spanish is similar to J in "January" (/dʒænjʊərɪ/), but without the sound "d".

Try to say "January" pressing the tongue against the palate, and leave the tongue only when you say the sound /æ/.


Edit: In some regions (like Argentina) this sound is different. In Argentina normally pronounce the syllables YA, YE, YI, YO, YO, LLA, LLE, LLI, LLO, LLU with a sound similar to /sh/: /TO·A·SHLLA/


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## TheCrociato91

Toxicus Prime said:


> The sound of LL in Spanish is similar to J in "January" (/dʒænjʊərɪ/), but without the sound "d".



I beg to differ. If you take /d/ away from /dʒ/, then you get /ʒ/, which to my knowledege is only used in _castellano rioplatense _to pronounce "ll" and "y". Do you pronounce "toalla" with this sound?


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## Toxicus Prime

TheCrociato91 said:


> I beg to differ. If you take /d/ away from /dʒ/, then you get /ʒ/, which to my knowledege is only used in _castellano rioplatense _to pronounce "ll" and "y". Do you pronounce "toalla" with this sound?



The english people when say "January" first sounds something like a "d". I say to pronounce "Janunary" without this sound /d/, not to pronounce "January" with /ʒ/. It's not like /ʒ/ in "television" or "measure".


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## gato radioso

Moreover, many Argentinians would say:
Toalla
Yo
Lluvia
in a way that it would sound almost like:
Toasha
Sho
Shuvia
at least, to my Spaniard ears.


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## TheCrociato91

Toxicus Prime said:


> The english people when say "January" first sounds something like a "d". I say to pronounce "Janunary" without this sound /d/, not to pronounce "January" with /ʒ/. It's not like /ʒ/ in "television" or "measure".



I'm not following you there, sorry. The word "January" has a [dʒ] sound, a voiced postalveolar affricate; I think we all agree on that.

If you say, pronounce [dʒ] *without *the [d] sound, you're basically saying: turn the affricate [dʒ] into a postalveolar fricative sound [ʒ], correct? So your saying "pronounce "Janunary" without this sound /d/", necessarily means "pronounce "January" with /ʒ/". [dʒ] minus [d] is [ʒ].



gato radioso said:


> Moreover, many Argentinians would say:
> Toalla
> Yo
> Lluvia
> in a way that it would sound almost like:
> Toasha
> Sho
> Shuvia
> at least, to my Spaniard ears.


Correct. To my knowledge speakers of _castellano rioplatense_ mostly pronounce "ll" and "y" as either [ʒ] or its voiceless counterpart, [ʃ].


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## merquiades

TheCrociato91 said:


> I beg to differ. If you take /d/ away from /dʒ/, then you get /ʒ/, which to my knowledege is only used in _castellano rioplatense _to pronounce "ll" and "y". Do you pronounce "toalla" with this sound?


But in various other places including parts of Spain the sound for ll is /dʒ/ but it is often not quite as harsh or explosive as the sound in January.


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## Toxicus Prime

TheCrociato91 said:


> I'm not following you there, sorry. The word "January" has a [dʒ] sound, a voiced postalveolar affricate; I think we all agree on that.
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> If you say, pronounce [dʒ] *without *the [d] sound, you're basically saying: turn the affricate [dʒ] into a postalveolar fricative sound [ʒ], correct? So your saying "pronounce "Janunary" without this sound /d/", necessarily means "pronounce "January" with /ʒ/". [dʒ] minus [d] is [ʒ].
> 
> *Correct, but I say "is like if you pronounce without sound /d/, but not being /ʒ/ only, like in "Television".*
> 
> 
> Correct. To my knowledge speakers of _castellano rioplatense_ mostly pronounce "ll" and "y" as either [ʒ] or its voiceless counterpart, [ʃ].
> 
> *I don't know anybody in Spain that says LL like /ʒ/. The sound of LL and Y (with vowels) is palatal lateral approximant: /ʎ/*






merquiades said:


> But in various other places including parts of Spain the sound for ll is /dʒ/
> *
> I don't know anybody Spain that says LL like /ʒ/. The sound of LL and Y (with vowels) is palatal lateral approximant: /ʎ/ *



Coments in *RED* in quoted text.


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## TheCrociato91

merquiades said:


> But in various other places including parts of Spain the sound for ll is /dʒ/



It may indeed be a sound similar to /dʒ/ (I prefer to transcribe it as /ɟ͡ʝ/ to distinguish it from Italian and English /dʒ/, which is post-alveolar), although this mostly occurs in emphatic position, such as at the beginning of a word, or after /n/, /m/ and /l/. Which does *not *mean it cannot occur in intervocalic position. But in the latter case it is usually realized as an approximant [j] or a palatal fricative [ʝ] (I'm of course talking about those who don't use /ʎ/ for "ll").

@Toxicus Prime
*The sound of LL and Y (with vowels) is palatal lateral approximant: /ʎ/*
The letter "y" pronounced as /ʎ/? That's news to me.

*Correct, but I say "is like if you pronounce without sound /d/, but not being /ʒ/ only. *
Last attempt on my part. If you say: pronounce [dʒ] without [d], you can *only *be saying: pronounce [ʒ]. 
Si dices: pronuncia [dʒ] sin [d], le estás diciendo que pronuncie [ʒ]. A ver si me explico mejor en castellano. Es una simple sustracción matemática; si le quitas la parte oclusiva [d] a una africada [dʒ], la conviertes en una fricativa [ʒ].

There's no other option. It's like saying: pronounce "cara" without a "c"; it's necessarily going to be "ara",


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## merquiades

TheCrociato91 said:


> It may indeed be a sound similar to /dʒ/ (I prefer to transcribe it as /ɟ͡ʝ/ to distinguish it from Italian and English /dʒ/, which is post-alveolar), although this mostly occurs in emphatic position, such as at the beginning of a word, or after /n/, /m/ and /l/. Which does *not *mean it cannot occur in intervocalic position. But in the latter case it is usually realized as an approximant [j] or a palatal fricative [ʝ] (I'm of course talking about those who don't use /ʎ/ for "ll").
> ,


  Yes, that is definitely the sound I was referring to.  I didn't know it had its own symbol.  Good to know. The closest I got to describing it was the d in education. It is indeed different than /dʒ/, although some speakers actually do have /dʒ/ in some areas.  /ɟ͡ʝ/ might be strong after the consonants you named and at the beginning of the word, but I believe it is extending to intervocalic positions in areas where yeismo has spread in recent times.  You hear it frequently, for example, in words like toalla, Sevilla, Castilla.  At any rate there are a lot of mixing of sounds going on nowadays, as the sounds for y and ll seem far from stabilized.


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## duvija

OK.
a) precisely because Spanish has only 5 vowels, we pronounce those vowels with more 'space' (imagine the drawing for the phonetics of the Spanish vowels). A foreigner may interpret our /a/ as something different, but we'll claim we pronounce them identically because that's what we believe and that's pure b.s. Of course, we pronounce them with slight differences.
b) Also: The first 'a' is stressed, the second one isn't. Then ...
c) I haven't seen anyone saying we actually pronounce 'twa.ya' with a big diphthong as a first syllable. (Did I miss it?) The sound of the following consonant is different in every country.


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## Smitch18

Thanks duvija, and everyone else who has commented here. You guys are serious and awesome language nerds, which I love. What happened, I think, is that I started pronouncing TO-A-LL-A as TO-AI-LL-A many moons ago, due to the English-speaking muscles in my mouth. I suppose that since the difference is small, no-one ever corrected me and it became fossilized. I still find it much easier to say it as /WAI/ than O-A. I'm teaching basic Spanish and had said to my students that vowels in Spanish always have the same sound (apart from dipthongs, of course). After some of the comments, I'm not even sure about that anymore; but anyway, as a general rule, it seems to hold true. When I said "TO-AI-Y-A", one very sharp student asked me why the first A did not sound like the second A. So I asked you guys. Now I'm going to have to go back and say that I've been saying it slightly wrong for many years, and eat humble pie. Nevertheless, still prefer the sound of TWAI-YA, even if it doesn't actually exist.


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## gato radioso

I think we all are splitting hairs a bit here.
I guess that most people would only need just a decent pronunciation to understand natives and to be understood by them.
I remember that, as a beginner, even I had some difficulty with "towel", I tended to say a clear "e", instead of a schwa. I noticed that some natives didn't get me at first, but I never had a problem getting all the towels I needed.
It would be enough if you make the same sounds as an English speaker saying "America", the first "A" for "toa",the second one for "lla".
The difference is stress basically.
Don't get obsessed if your pronunciation is 100% perfect. There isn't such a thing as "The Perfect Spanish" displayed in any museum. Moreover, even if you pronunciation is not perfectly clear, as most Spanish words are so long, made up by several syllables, it makes understanding quite easier.
In fact, I would say that the tricky sound here is the "ll", not to mention similar words like "Joaquin" which many native speakers insist in pronounce it as "hwa..." instead of "hoa...".


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## S.V.

Yes, you will often hear these changes, /o/ → /u/ and /e/ → /i/, when the stressed syllable is somewhere else, and we can mix them with another vowel: aerio for_ aéreo, _and then airopuerto_,_ once the stressed syllable is_ puer. _Same for herue (_héroe_)_, _almuada (_almohada_)_._ Languages like to simplify, and we are too lazy for that extra syllable! _ _Here they have _toalla, tualla_, _tuasha_. As you say, it is common as "twah" and the _ll _may also have a regional pronunciation, as has been said.

Duvija is an expert with spectrograms, and can tell us how close they can get. Just imagine they are already similar, and our chords go for the middle, or all the way to /i/ and /u/, as they are "weak" vowels, perfect for diphthongs, whenever they don't deserve to be in their own syllable! (practice a long, sustained _ooo-uuu-ooo-uuu_, without moving your lips much; in _toalla_, the stress in /a/, right after /o/, is enough to pull it a bit_ lower_, closer to _/u/_).


Spoiler


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## duvija

Right. Never forget ' differences due to stress' and 'diphthongization', so very common in Spanish - but as S.V. said, 'stress' is not enough. 
(See this: 
English: A Stress-Timed Language - Rachel's English 
but don't believe that in Spanish, stress is totally irrelevant.) 
And remember: all Spanish speakers believe we have only 5 vowels so we are unable to hear how much auditory space each one occupies.  An English speaker can go crazy trying to find different words according to the sound of their own 17 vowels, and can't believe we claim what I said: we have only five. And the opposite is also true. We can't believe you have 17 ... You should listen to me saying 'squirrel'. Impossible.


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## Amapolas

I concur with Duvija. We Spanish speakers are not aware that we have more than five vowel sounds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's probably that they're allophones and are not "meaning-significant". 



Toxicus Prime said:


> *I don't know anybody Spain that says LL like /ʒ/. The sound of LL and Y (with vowels) is palatal lateral approximant: /ʎ/*.


Incidentally, I believe I've heard some speakers from Analucía prounounce it /ʒ/ or /ʃ/ like we do here. Perhaps from Granada?


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## duvija

Si, nuestras vocales tienen alófonos a patadas. No nos damos cuenta de eso y si se lo decís a alguien de habla hispana, te miran como si estuvieras borracho. La gente sigue creyendo que 'se lee como se escribe' y viceversa. No es así. Las vocales son distintas en sílaba abierta que en sílaba cerrada. No cambian en realidad bajo acento/stress pero cambia el volumen, por lo que los anglohablantes las interpretan como más largas aunque no lo sean. También influyen las consonantes previas y posteriores, pero todo esto es fonética y no fonología. Más abiertas o más cerradas, no cambian el sentido de la palabra.


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## S.V.

Un ejemplo favorito. _Pesos_,_ pesas_ y _peces_ a veces las decimos casi igual en México  ([ˈpe̞sə̥s], hasta el final).


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## duvija

Buen hilo. En la página que señala S.V. (acá) se explica mucho de lo que hablamos. Es más completa que otras, pero siguen faltándole detalles (como que en Cuba, el nombre 'Ema' se pronuncia [eɱa] - con una nasal rara para otros. 
La gráfica de las vocales es clara, y sería bueno que la miraran.
Para las vocales que hacen eso que vimos en 'toalla' [twa]lla , ver esto:

La _e_, _o_, y _a_ átonas pueden reducirse a [j̝], [w̝] y completa elisión, respectivamente. Ejemplos; beatitud [bj̝a̠t̪iˈt̪uð̞], línea [ˈlĩnj̝a̠], Mediterráneo [me̞ð̞it̪e̞ˈrã̠nj̝o̞], héroe [ˈe̞ɾw̝e̞], almohada [a̠lmw̝ˈa̠ð̞a̠], ahorita [o̞ˈɾit̪a̠]. En pronunciaciones más cuidadas se realizan; [e̯], [o̯] y [a̯], y se pronunciarían; [be̯a̠t̪iˈt̪uð̞], [ˈlĩne̯a̠], [me̞ð̞it̪e̞ˈrã̠ne̯o̞], [ˈe̞ɾo̯e̞], [a̠lmo̯ˈa̠ð̞a̠] y [a̯o̞ˈɾit̪a̠], respectivamente.

La _i_ y la _u_ pueden ser las semivocales [i̯] y [u̯] (diptongos decrecientes) o las semiconsonantes [j] y [w] (diptongos crecientes).

En el español popular de la península Ibérica, una vez perdida la aproximante de las terminaciones en _-ado_, el segmento resultante suele pronunciarse [a̠ʊ̯], con la introducción del alófono [ʊ̯], que puede hacerse [o̯] en pronunciaciones más cuidadas y [u̯] en las más descuidadas.


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## duvija

S.V. said:


> Un ejemplo favorito. _Pesos_,_ pesas_ y _peces_ a veces las decimos casi igual en México  ([ˈpe̞sə̥s], hasta el final).



¡Pero conservan la en buen estado! nosotros la perdemos y apenas suena como . No la perdemos del todo como en el Caribe. (Algún día les haré el cuento de lo que me pasó con la pronunciación de la 's' en Ciudad de México)


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## S.V.

En Editar, selecciona el texto y dale en el botón _T_x en la esquina derecha, cuando se te va el formato. 

Para el texto rayado, el botón está muy escondido junto al __, en el ícono del párrafo y luego S (con el texto seleccionado).


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## duvija

S.V. said:


> En Editar, selecciona el texto y dale en el botón _T_x en la esquina derecha, cuando se te va el formato.
> 
> Para el texto rayado, el botón está muy escondido junto al __, en el ícono del párrafo y luego S (con el texto seleccionado).



Gracias !!! lo corregí, creo.  No, no pude arreglar todo. Repito:

¡Pero conservan la en buen estado! nosotros la perdemos y apenas suena como  . No la perdemos del todo como en el Caribe. (Algún día les haré el cuento de lo que me pasó con la pronunciación de la 's' en Ciudad de México) 

Ufa


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## S.V.

Ay, que me alegras la noche, Duvi. Luego nos cuentas, a mí también, que mi variedad es del norte. No me sale el "acento" _chilango_.


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## Quirce

Algunos todavía utilizamos la pronunciación líquida de la "ll". Somos una especie a extinguir. No ha lugar a disquisiciones vocálicas como la mayoría de las  que se han comentado. Ni remotamente la elle es semivocal.


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## merquiades

Amapolas said:


> I concur with Duvija. We Spanish speakers are not aware that we have more than five vowel sounds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's probably that they're allophones and are not "meaning-significant".
> 
> 
> Incidentally, I believe I've heard some speakers from Analucía prounounce it /ʒ/ or /ʃ/ like we do here. Perhaps from Granada?


Extremadura, en Trujillo por ejemplo, pero vuestra antigua versión, no la sh actual de Buenos Aires.


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## gato radioso

Amapolas said:


> I concur with Duvija. We Spanish speakers are not aware that we have more than five vowel sounds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's probably that they're allophones and are not "meaning-significant".
> 
> 
> Incidentally, I believe I've heard some speakers from Analucía prounounce it /ʒ/ or /ʃ/ like we do here. Perhaps from Granada?



Some people have "yeísmo". You can find it in some parts of Andalucía and in Castilla too (the central part of Spain), but it´s a local trait. In fact, most people in Andalucía don´t say "cabayo" "yerba" or "yuvia" either.


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## Amapolas

S.V. said:


> Un ejemplo favorito. _Pesos_,_ pesas_ y _peces_ a veces las decimos casi igual en México  ([ˈpe̞sə̥s], hasta el final).


Gracias por el enlace; está buenísimo.


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## Toxicus Prime

Smitch18 said:


> I'm teaching basic Spanish and had said to my students that vowels in Spanish always have the same sound (apart from dipthongs, of course). After some of the comments, I'm not even sure about that anymore; but anyway, as a general rule, it seems to hold true.



Smitch18, in Spanish we distinguish at least 5 sounds in vowels (https://www.mimicmethod.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/fixed-vowels.png) and, technically, always have the same sound.

However, depending of the position in a word, the syllable stressed and the accent is possible pronounce them like an open or close vowel. They are called allophones. That also occurs in consonants. For example, the first "d" in "dado" ("dice" in English) has a sound different than the second "d".

In case of vowels, when the child learn to read/write, they learn the sounds of vowels like:

a: /a/
e: /e/
i: /i/
o: /o/
u: /u/​But they don't learn the sounds of allophones:

a: /ɑ/
e: /ɛ/
o: /ɔ/​
These pronunciation depending of countries or regions:

Normal pronunciation: gatos (cats):  /gatos/
Pronunciation in some regions: gatos (cats):  /gatɔθ/​In fact, in Spain (I don't know in Latin-America), we usually don't learn the differents sounds like the English speakers. For example, all child in Spain learn that "gatos" is pronounced /gatos/, not /gatɔθ/ or both.



Edit: In Wikipedia you can see the codes IPA for vowels and diphthongs: Appendix:Spanish pronunciation - Wiktionary. You can see that doesn't appear the sounds of open or close vowels.


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## Penyafort

A's can certainly be different by only the context in which they are, what consonants surround them, and so on. But to a Spanish ear, they are all the same, as they are never significant as minimal pairs.

The only variety of Spanish I know of where a difference in the a's is important is Eastern Andalusian, in which the difference between la vaca and lA vacA (open a's) mark the difference between the singular and the plural.


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## gato radioso

Penyafort said:


> A's can certainly be different by only the context in which they are, what consonants surround them, and so on. But to a Spanish ear, they are all the same, as they are never significant as minimal pairs.
> 
> The only variety of Spanish I know of where a difference in the a's is important is Eastern Andalusian, in which the difference between la vaca and lA vacA (open a's) mark the difference between the singular and the plural.



Exactly.

As a dialectal trait, in Andalusia most speakers (but no all of them) modify the "s" at the end of a syllable for a soft "h", except if you can link with the initial vowel of the next word.
With this happening in a spoken speech, lacking of any written or established standards, that trait can vary a lot, depending on the speaker. Some make a strong distinct "h", others a very gente sound, not easily noticeable sometimes.

But in Eastern Andalusian -and above all, in the Córdoba area- most speakers clearly omit that "h".

If a hear a mother calling out her children, if she said:

"Nenaaaa" with the "a" for "América", I can make out there´s only a little girl.
But, if she happened to say: "Nenaaa" with the same sound of a Catalan speaker in "Carl*e*s", I know there are a group of girls involved.

I´m not sure, though, whether a speaker from Madrid or the Basque Country would make out the difference.


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