# Urdu: Colloquial pronunciation of ghayn غين Gh-g



## marrish

This forum can be the only way for me to get some information about Colloquial Urdu: many people learn Urdu and there are books for Colloquial Urdu and of course there are many knowledgeable observers or speakers of the everyday language, as spoken in the cities. Had I the opportunity to go and listen on my own I wouldn't have posted this thread.

When speaking fast, how frequently or if any, Gh (Ghayn) is pronounced as g (gaaf) and under which circumstances.

Eg. میں نے غور نہیں کیا -- میں نے گور نہیں کیا۔


----------



## hindiurdu

marrish said:


> Eg. میں نے غور نہیں کیا -- میں نے گور نہیں کیا۔



In my experience, people who pronounce Gh properly tend to make an 'a' sound rather than a 'g' sound when speaking fast. Maybe an 'ain' is how you might describe it. Main ne 3aur se dekha. Woh to banda 'i 'areeb 'ai. For woh to banda hi Gharib hai. Others say g no matter what - slow or fast.


----------



## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> This forum can be the only way for me to get some information about Colloquial Urdu: many people learn Urdu and there are books for Colloquial Urdu and of course there are many knowledgeable observers or speakers of the everyday language, as spoken in the cities. Had I the opportunity to go and listen on my own I wouldn't have posted this thread.
> 
> When speaking fast, how frequently or if any, Gh (Ghayn) is pronounced as g (gaaf) and under which circumstances.
> 
> Eg. میں نے غور نہیں کیا -- میں نے گور نہیں کیا۔




Whether I speak at the pace of a snail or at a speed beyond Mach 1, it always remains Gh!


----------



## marrish

^You surely don't speak street language!


----------



## hindiurdu

Oh, just thought of a good example. AfGhaanistaan → Af3aanistaan (colloquial) → Aw3aanistan → 'W3aanistaan (Punjabi-influenced? hyper-colloquial). 

Imagine PahaRis saying "there was an attack in Afghanistan". It can easily become something like "Waanistaanch amlaa'oyi'yaa" (Afghanistan meiN hamlaa ho gayaa). Add some nice Punjabi style tonality and it becomes totally incomprehensible to standard HU speakers.


----------



## tonyspeed

hindiurdu said:


> Aw3aanistan


  I've heard this from a Pakistani. I was wondering why he wasn't saying Gh. So this is considered colloquial? He wasn't speaking particularly fast when he said this.


----------



## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> This forum can be the only way for me to get some information about Colloquial Urdu: many people learn Urdu and there are books for Colloquial Urdu and of course there are many knowledgeable observers or speakers of the everyday language, as spoken in the cities. Had I the opportunity to go and listen on my own I wouldn't have posted this thread.
> 
> When speaking fast, how frequently or if any, Gh (Ghayn) is pronounced as g (gaaf) and under which circumstances.
> 
> Eg. میں نے غور نہیں کیا -- میں نے گور نہیں کیا۔


 I'm not sure if this is a question of speed! I know people who would be called "uneducated", even illiterate, who pronounce a clear Gh (Ghayn) and never a g (gaaf) no matter what speed they are speaking at. It may depend on the background/ training / company / environment one grows up in whether one ends up with this Gh -> g shift.


----------



## marrish

hindiurdu said:


> Oh, just thought of a good example. AfGhaanistaan → Af3aanistaan (colloquial) → Aw3aanistan → 'W3aanistaan (Punjabi-influenced? hyper-colloquial).
> 
> Imagine PahaRis saying "there was an attack in Afghanistan". It can easily become something like "Waanistaanch amlaa'oyi'yaa" (Afghanistan meiN hamlaa ho gayaa). Add some nice Punjabi style tonality and it becomes totally incomprehensible to standard HU speakers.


I'm afraid I can't follow you on the point of 3. I have Kashmiri friends, also from India. Wouldn't it be that they simply miss out the nuqtah?


----------



## hindiurdu

marrish said:


> I'm afraid I can't follow you on the point of 3. I have Kashmiri friends, also from India. Wouldn't it be that they simply miss out the nuqtah?



Sorry, marrish sahab, I should have been clearer. Kashmiris will universally pronounce this as a "g". I meant Punjabi/Pahari people. 3 is an approximation here. Its a "stall" similar to a voiced pharyngeal fricative, but not as blatant as an Arab would say it. Makes sense?


----------



## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Whether I speak at the pace of a snail or at a speed beyond Mach 1, it always remains Gh!



Sorry for being off topic, but when I visited your country recently, I had enough opportunities to ponder on the snail's pace as they used to emerge massively in the back garden at night!


----------



## BP.

marrish said:


> ...When speaking fast, how frequently or if any, Gh (Ghayn) is pronounced as g (gaaf) and under which circumstances.
> ...


In a more general context (i.e. if you took away the 'when speaking fast' criterion), many people in Sindh  systematically replace any gh/G with a g, e.g "My name is gulaam Hussain".


----------



## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> In a more general context (i.e. if you took away the 'when speaking fast' criterion), many people in Sindh systematically replace any gh/G with a g, e.g "My name is gulaam Hussain".


 This Gh -> g shift is common across the sub-continent and of course not restricted to Sindhis since most Indic languages don’t have a ‘Ghayn’ sound.


----------



## panjabigator

And then there is the overcompensatory g --> Gh shift too. See this thread.


----------



## marrish

BelligerentPacifist said:


> In a more general context (i.e. if you took away the 'when speaking fast' criterion), many people in Sindh systematically replace any gh/G with a g, e.g "My name is gulaam Hussain".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Faylasoof said:
> 
> 
> 
> This Gh -> g shift is common across the sub-continent and of course not restricted to Sindhis since most Indic languages don’t have a ‘Ghayn’ sound.
Click to expand...

BP SaaHib, it is very important what you said about people in Sindh. Thank you. Faylasoof SaaHib too, for the clarification. Incidentally, the thread resulted from a conversation with a person who hails from Sindh, so BP's answer is just perfect with me.


----------



## BP.

marrish said:


> BP SaaHib, it is very important what you said about people in Sindh. Thank you. Faylasoof SaaHib too, for the clarification. Incidentally, the thread resulted from a conversation with a person who hails from Sindh, so BP's answer is just perfect with me.


marrish sahib, it obviously also depends on the person's education, social class and their familiarity with Urdu. I've recently noticed that even at the northern tip of Karachi city you begin to observe the loss of gh and x to g and kh, a loss of diphthongs to monophthongs, and considerably more nasalization. That notwithstanding, many people take care to vocalize the former sounds when they speak Urdu, the person would say xair to you and khair to their little brother.

And as Faylasoof sahib said, this phenomenon isn't limited to Sindhi-speakers, many her linguistic communities here in Sindh exhibit this shift.


----------



## ihsaan

As someone trying to Urdu, I am listening to parts of a book being read by a woman from Karachi. I looked up this question, and found this topic, as she quite clearly reads for example a word like پیغام with a clear "g" sound (I listened several times). I have also heard the gh --> g pronunciation quite frequently when watching serials made in Karachi (and I have then been somewhat unsure if I misheard the "gh" sound as g for example in words like "murghi".

It was not quite clear to me, from reading the replies here, whether or not one will find this pronunciation even among educated Pakistanis from Sindh. As I am trying to speak Urdu the way (educated) Karachites do, I am wondering if I will sound "uneducated" if I say the "g" in stead of gh-sound, or if it would sound better if I just stayed with the proper "gh" pronunciation? It seems to me that there are several examples where the way things are written, are not quite how most people pronounce things when talking (for example, most people seem to pronounce the "qaaf" more as kaaf. This has at least been my experience when listening to people speak).


----------



## mundiya

This thread is also relevant: http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/urdu-pronunciation-of-persian-consonants.2906909/


----------



## nizamuddin

اردو میں (گ) اور (غ) کی ادائیگی میں کافی فرق ہے۔ علاقائی طور پر پاک و ہند کے کچھ علاقائی لوگ (غ) کی بطور (گ) ادائیگی کرتے ہیں جو کہ غلط ہے ۔۔  اور بعض جگہوں پر ان کے معنی بھی تبدیل ہوجاتے ہیں۔ مثلا اوپر دیئے ہوئے جملے میں (غور) کے معنی سوچ بچار، فکر، تدبیر کے ہیں ۔ لیکن اگر اس کو (گور) بولا جائے تو اس کے معنی قبر، لحد، مرقد، مزار وغیرہ ہیں۔


----------



## littlepond

ihsaan said:


> It seems to me that there are several examples where the way things are written, are not quite how most people pronounce things when talking



That's indeed very well observed as far as Urdu language is concerned. I think the choice is yours: some pedantic people might look down on you for not observing the "correct" pronunciation, but if you do so, you might yourself sound pedantic and even pretentious to some ears, unless you are invited to speak at some literary forum of Urdu, where of course it would be a sacrilege not to observe these niceties.


----------



## marrish

ihsaan said:


> It was not quite clear to me, from reading the replies here, whether or not one will find this pronunciation even among educated Pakistanis from Sindh. As I am trying to speak Urdu the way (educated) Karachites do, I am wondering if I will sound "uneducated" if I say the "g" in stead of gh-sound, or if it would sound better if I just stayed with the proper "gh" pronunciation? It seems to me that there are several examples where the way things are written, are not quite how most people pronounce things when talking (for example, most people seem to pronounce the "qaaf" more as kaaf. This has at least been my experience when listening to people speak).


Let me clear things up for you. Although this phenomenon about which I made the original inquiry does occur, it is only sporadical i.e. a person who does pronounce Ghayn might slip into "gaaf" at times and at times not. Concerning the previous replies it doesn't really matter whether the speaker is literate or not <== no matter of pedantry. I would suggest you to pronounce "Ghayn" wherever it is required because this behaviour is something really marginal for Urdu speakers and most probably you would end up being thought of as if you weren't actually able to pronounce Ghayn.

My original query was inspired by observing the speech of one person of Sindhi background who does deliver his Ghayns in 90%. I haven't met any other speaker yet who doesn't pronounce Ghayn at all.


----------



## ihsaan

Ah, that does clear up things! Thank you very much, Marrish SaaHib. And also a big thank you to the other people in this thread who replied.


----------

