# How to pronounce -ый and ий?



## Aren01

According to my textbook in the й endings, ый and ий, й  is inaudible. HOWEVER, i've been told by native speakers that you  DO HAVE to pronounce й. So what's going on here?


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## Yalta

Judging by native Germans that I know, they handle with inaudible *ый* and* ий, й *very well.  And they don't have any lingvo degree.

Yalta


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## Maroseika

Aren01 said:


> According to my textbook in the й endings, ый and ий, й  is inaudible. HOWEVER, i've been told by native speakers that you you DO HAVE to pronounce й. So what's going on here?


Й may be inaudible in fast or negligent speech, otherwise й is quite audible.


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## Q-cumber

I wonder why your textbook contains such a strange statement. 

произношение Георгий: Как произносится Георгий, язык: русский


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## Vovan

Aren01 said:


> So what's going on here?


The sound [й] turns into a very reduced [и], that is, you almost don't press your tongue on your hard palate.


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## Катя

й is like ´y´ in boy.


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## Awwal12

Maroseika said:


> Й may be inaudible in fast or negligent speech, otherwise й is quite audible.


There are variations, of course. Some speakers may fail to pronounce it at all, from others you my get a sound close to the unvoiced [j̊]. Anyway, you'll hardly hear the properly articulated [j] in this position.


Катя said:


> й is like ´y´ in boy.


In "boy" you have a falling diphthong which ends in [ɪ]. In case of -ий, similar diphthong [ɪɪ?] wouldn't make any sense at all. Obviously the second part of this sound combination, if present at all, must be audibly more close than the initial part.


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## Катя

Awwal12 said:


> There are variations, of course. Some speakers may fail to pronounce it at all, from others you my get a sound close to the unvoiced [j̊]. Anyway, you'll hardly hear the properly articulated [j] in this position.
> 
> In "boy" you have a falling diphthong which ends in [ɪ]. In case of -ий, similar diphthong [ɪɪ?] wouldn't make any sense at all. Obviously the second part of this sound combination, if present at all, must be audibly more close than the initial part.



Well, of course, but it was the easiest way to explain it, I personally think there is no need to enter in a linguistic debate yet, because refining pronunciation to the perfection is not the focus at the moment  It is better to exagerate a bit at the beginning then not to pronounce it at all.

I´d say even is like j in ja in German ()since I see your native language is German), try to say ja without a.


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## Awwal12

Катя said:


> I´d say even is like j in ja in German ()since I see your native language is German), try to say ja without a.


It certainly isn't. German [j] is articulated in a very stiff manner. I take it as the OP hasn't any particular problems with Russian /й/ in the initial positions anyway and just cannot figure out how is it actually represented in particular inflexions.


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## Катя

Awwal12 said:


> It certainly isn't. German [j] is articulated in a very stiff manner. I take it as the OP hasn't any particular problems with Russian /й/ in the initial positions anyway and just cannot figure out how is it actually represented in particular inflexions.



I am not here to argue, for me is the easiest way to explain the way it should be pronounced, as am not assuming whether the OP has o has not any problems with й, it was some info just in case. Take it easy. Cheers.


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## Sobakus

-ий is realised as a long(er) и - the difference in length remains whatever the tempo, e.g. if -ий is as long as an -и at normal pace, then -и will probably be completely devoiced. The only exception I can think of is before another -й.

-ый is more or less how a German would say -ij if they don't try too hard to pronounce the consonant. It's realised as a rising diphthong but unlike in the previous case doesn't necessarily have to be distinct from -ы.


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## Quernon

Hello guys, I don't speak German so I have no idea what you guys are referring to when trying to answer this question :/
*
So is the й actually pronounced in -ий -ый?*

1) From reading this thread it sounded like in -ий the й isn't pronounced but the first и becomes longer (like -ии?)

2) What about -ый then? Does the ы become longer? (like -ыы?)

3) Would it sound very foreign or uneducated not to pronounce it?

Thank you


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## Maroseika

Quernon said:


> 1) From reading this thread it sounded like in -ий the й isn't pronounced but the first и becomes longer (like -ии?)
> 
> 2) What about -ый then? Does the ы become longer? (like -ыы?)
> 
> 3) Would it sound very foreign or uneducated not to pronounce it?


1. In not very fast speech, й is clearly pronounced in both endings. In the fast speech й may be not heard at all, but I doubt any vowel elongation takes place.
2. Making и or ы longer will definitely sound very strange.
3. Omitting й may look foreign, but not uneducated, as it's too natural for the native, irrespective to their education, to pronounce it in normal speech.


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## Quernon

Maroseika said:


> 3. Omitting й may look foreign, but not uneducated, as it's too natural for the native, irrespective to their education, to pronounce it in normal speech.



Thank you, so do you mean natives usually pronounce the й in normal speech even when they speak fast? And some other natives might omit it in fast speech?


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## Maroseika

Quernon said:


> so do you mean natives usually pronounce the й in normal speech even when they speak fast? And some other natives might omit it in fast speech?


By normal speech I meen slow speech. So in the fast speech й sounds weaker and may even be omitted. But this occurs only between the words pronounced one by one as one word (but not in the end, before the pause).


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## Sobakus

Maroseika said:


> 1. In not very fast speech, й is clearly pronounced in both endings. In the fast speech й may be not heard at all, but I doubt any vowel elongation takes place.
> 2. Making и or ы longer will definitely sound very strange.


Don't you agree that и and й mark the same sound, one syllabic [ i ]  and one not [ i̯ ]? How then is it possible that 2 of the same sound [ ii̯ ]does not result in one long vowel [i:]? Unless of course you make the glide a fricative [ʝ], which happens only in extremely emphatic speech.

p.s.: How do you escape formatting to write IPA [ i ] without it turning into italics?!


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## Maroseika

Sobakus said:


> Don't you agree that и and й mark the same sound, one syllabic [ i ]  and one not [ i̯ ]?


No, I don't. At least these sounds in помой and помои sound quite different for me.


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## Awwal12

Maroseika said:


> No, I don't. At least these sounds in помой and помои sound quite different for me.


We're walking on a minefield here.  Of course, orthoepically помои and помой differ (and our brain unavoidably treats /й/ differently than /и/; it's harder to tell how different are they in reality). Yet many people misspell "воины" as "войны", which means they are losing one syllable here and effectively don't distinguish /'VиC/ from /'VйC/ at all.


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## Maroseika

Awwal12 said:


> . Yet many people misspell "воины" as "войны", which means they are losing one syllable here and effectively don't distinguish /'VиC/ from /'VйC/ at all.


I'm not sure whether this misspeling correlates with their pronunciation. But I agree this is too difficult matter. I just wrote about my own perception.


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## fdb

Awwal12 said:


> from others you my get a sound close to the unvoiced [j̊].



In other words [ç], I assume. This in keeping with the principle that final consonants are devoiced in Russian. Is that correct?


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## Awwal12

fdb said:


> This in keeping with the principle that final consonants are devoiced in Russian. Is that correct?


That principle normally doesn't affect sonorants. Still, devoicing of /л/, /р/ and /й/ sometimes does happen in the coda as well (/р/ and /л/ also sometimes become devoiced before voiceless obstruents).


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## VCH250

The problem is that English doesn't have those two diphthongs. Here's my advise (I say them fine). Practice in the following way

йййййй... *ий*.... йййййй.....*ий*—That will help you memorize the position of the end of the sound (that is, й). I mean, say a long fricative й (that's a "y" where you can hear friction—imagine that you are saying "yyyyyyoou silly fool" with lots of stress on the yyyy part) then quickly say the и + й—try to end at the position of the й that you memorized.

But remember that this is a *diphthong* not two sounds, so adding a full y-sound *will likely not help*, and is anyways almost impossible, or at least very hard.

For *ый* do the same thing ййййййй.... *ый*...йййййй....*ый*

Vocables (combinations of sounds that help you memorize positions and movements are super helpful in Russian.

The above will give you an exaggerated ending (dipthong)—your next goal after that is to apply the same vowel reducing rules to the ending as to any vowels in unstressed positions—not as strong, not as long, but still a combination of the two sounds.

The problem for us English speakers is understating that it's a dipthong. It takes some practice to get the feeling for it.

On a side note й basically does disappear in normal speech, all that gets left is the effect it has on the preceding vowel.


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## Sobakus

fdb said:


> In other words [ç], I assume. This in keeping with the principle that final consonants are devoiced in Russian. Is that correct?


The only word this ever happens in that I can think of is the emphatic exclamation of real pain "ай!". This is because it requires two processes that are already uncharacteristic of the Russian diction (j-fortition and sonorant devoicing) to happen at the same time.


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## Awwal12

Speakers of langauges where voiced and unvoiced sonorants are opposed (like Moksha) may occasionally hear unvoiced sonorants in Russian speech as well, which is quite telling.
I suppose that non-devoiced [j] may exist in weak positions only as long as it isn't a subject to fortition (which, despite being uncharacteristic, may happen).


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## VCH250

Pretty much ever phonetics book for foreigners (written in Russian or in English) mentions that sonorants devoice when they are preceding by an unvoiced consonant. —театр, мысль, вихрь итп... Russians will argue this point, but it's quite apparent to my ears that if special effort isn't made they devoice to varying degrees.

See here—Обучение русскому произношению

And here—The Phonetics of Russian


Full or partial devoicing

_*Moderatorial: off-topic deleted. 
<...>*_


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## Awwal12

VCH250 said:


> Pretty much ever phonetics book for foreigners (written in Russian or in English) mentions that sonorants devoice when they are preceding by an unvoiced consonant. —театр, мысль, вихрь итп...


Here they are not only preceded by an unvoiced consonant, but are also in the coda, where they form separate syllables. A pretty specific position, where you indeed will normally find them devoiced, - but /й/ doesn't occur in such positions. And when a sonorant is preceded by an unvoiced consonant AND is followed by a vowel (thus appearing in the beginning of the next, "normal" syllable), the devoicing normally doesn't happen (at least to any audible degree); you can easily compare how people pronounce "теа́тр" and "театра́льный" on forvo.com.


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