# an irgend einem grünen Tisch .... kalt beschließen



## Ivo

Hello, I am trying to translate something but I am not sure what would be the most appropriate equivalent for the following:
"an irgend einem grunen Tisch....in kalt zu beschliessen".
Below, you will find the original source and my translation. Would you say that this is appropriate?
Thank you, ivo

*Carlo Schmid, political speech in Tübingen, 1946:

“Was hier geschehen ist, das hat die Welt so scheußlich noch nie Gesehen” Zwar habe es in der Geschichte immer schon Menschen gegeben, die,”von einem Blutrausch gepackt, im Amoklauf aufgebrochen sind und gemordet und gewütet haben” – dass aber “an irgend einem grünen Tisch einige Menschen kalt beschließen konnten, dass Millionen auszurotten seien und nun sich Menschen fanden, die diese fast bürokratische Anweisung mit amtlicher Ruhe und Gelassenheit durchführten”, dies sei bislang “unerhört” gewesen.*

My translation:
< ... > But that a few men from some green table and in cold blood would decide that millions were to be exterminated, and that there were people who carried out these instructions with bureaucratic calmness and serenity, that has never been heard of before.


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## Frieder

I think that your translation is very good .


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## Kajjo

I am not sure whether "green table" has the same fixed-phrase meaning as in German. Maybe an English native speaker can comment on that? (@elroy, @Dan2)

A "green table decision" is meant to indicate a bureaucratic, somewhat arbitrary decision without considering the real life situation and common sense. The applicability in practice is often questionable.

_...but that a few men sitting on a some green table were able to decide in cold blood that millions were to be exterminated_

note: _could / were able to _statt _would_
note: _in cold blood_ is adverbial to _to decide, _not a second part of an enumeration

_...carried out these instructions with bureaucratic calmness and composure_

I believe, "serenity" is not what is meant in the German text. It means something between equanimity and composure.


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## Ivo

Kajjo said:


> I am not sure whether "green table" has the same fixed-phrase meaning as in German. Maybe an English native speaker can comment on that? (@elroy, @Dan2)
> 
> A "green table decision" is meant to indicate a bureaucratic, somewhat arbitrary decision without considering the real life situation and common sense. The applicability in practice is often questionable.
> 
> _...but that a few men sitting on a some green table were able to decide in cold blood that millions were to be exterminated_
> 
> note: _could / were able to _statt _would_
> note: _in cold blood_ is adverbial to _to decide, _not a second part of an enumeration
> 
> _...carried out these instructions with bureaucratic calmness and composure_
> 
> I believe, "serenity" is not what is meant in the German text. It means something between equanimity and composure.



Kajjo, 
great, thank you. Yeah, composure is a better word - I can see it myself. 
also, could...is the proper word in this context, I was not careful enough here. 
Regaring the green table - that is exactly the problem I am having - not sure what the equivalent of it would be in English.


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## Ivo

Frieder said:


> I think that your translation is very good .


Danke!!!


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## elroy

I've never heard "green table" used with this meaning before.  One potential equivalent that comes to mind is "armchair." 

_But for a few armchair bureaucrats to coldly decide that millions of people were to be exterminated, and for there to actually be people who carried out their almost bureaucratic instructions with mechanical, unfazed matter-of-factness was something that had been unheard of before that point. 
_
"Mechanical, unfazed matter-of-factness" is not a literal translation, but I think it's very close to the German original.

I'm not too happy with "almost bureaucratic" because I used "bureaucrats" before.  Maybe we could use another word instead of "bureaucrats" - "leaders"?

"Unerhört" is "*un*heard of" - not "*not* heard of."


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I've never heard "green table" used with this meaning before.


I was afraid so. This term is not easily translatable. The term is very popular, e.g. in journalism.

Maybe "_Some people in an office decide arbitrarily..._"?

The main point of a green table is, that it stands in an office, as part of bureaucratic decision, seens as opposite to the real life outside the office. 



elroy said:


> "Mechanical, unfazed matter-of-factness" is not a literal translation, but I think it's very close to the German original.


Hm, partly yes, but not in total. The German phrase "mit amtlicher Ruhe und Gelassenheit" is a good example of what is meant, i.e. semantics and phrasing co-incide. The German phrase is very sober, matter-of-fact. So I agree, that "matter-of-fact" fits not bad. However, I do not see _mechanical_ or _unfazed_ here, without interpreting too much into the very well known context.

I would prefer to keep to the sober and distanced original here:

_...with administrative calmness and composure...
_


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## elroy

Kajjo, do you not like "armchair bureaucrats"?

I'm not a fan of "calmness and composure" because they're positively connoted.  "Unfazed" to me expresses what it meant here: that they are doing this as though it were the most ordinary thing in the world.

"Mechanical" implies lack of emotional involvement: that you're just doing something robotically.

I think the point the author is trying to make here is that these heinous crimes were committed as though they were just ordinary, everyday, run-of-the-mill tasks.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Kajjo, do you not like "armchair bureaucrats"?


No, it doesn't fit. An _armchair bureaucrat _would be one that is ignorant and lazy yet convinced of his own abilities. That is not the point of taking a decision_ am grünen Tisch_. What this means is that the decision was taking in the seclusion of the committee room, high-handedly and without regard for those affected. Nobody would say that Heidrich was an _armchair bureaucrat_. He was cunning, diligent, intellectual and knew exactly what he was doing. He was just abysmally evil.


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## elroy

You're right; "armchair" does imply a certain amount of incompetence.


berndf said:


> the decision was taking in the seclusion of the committee room, high-handedly and without regard for those affected


 I think the equivalent English expression is "ivory tower":

_But for a few individuals to coldly decide from some ivory tower that millions of people were to be exterminated,..._


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I think the equivalent English expression is "ivory tower":


_Ivory tower_ implies _unworldlyness_. That also doesn't fit. I would think _high-handedly_ is maybe not perfect but sufficient to convey what is meant:
_But for a few individuals to coldly and high-handedly decide that millions of people were to be exterminated,..._


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## Minnesota Guy

Just an attempt-obviously translating with some freedom:  "But for a few individuals, in the comfort of their offices, to dispassionately decide. . . . "


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## Ivo

elroy said:


> I've never heard "green table" used with this meaning before.  One potential equivalent that comes to mind is "armchair."
> 
> _But for a few armchair bureaucrats to coldly decide that millions of people were to be exterminated, and for there to actually be people who carried out their almost bureaucratic instructions with mechanical, unfazed matter-of-factness was something that had been unheard of before that point.
> _
> "Mechanical, unfazed matter-of-factness" is not a literal translation, but I think it's very close to the German original.
> 
> I'm not too happy with "almost bureaucratic" because I used "bureaucrats" before.  Maybe we could use another word instead of "bureaucrats" - "leaders"?
> 
> "Unerhört" is "*un*heard of" - not "*not* heard of."



Elroy, thank you for your input. I actually like it - you used here a bit of freedom here as how to approach the sentence but I think it reflects the spirt fairly well. I am also happy to see that my question wasn't completely easy as you guys seem be having trouble finding the right words too.


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## Ivo

Minnesota Guy said:


> Just an attempt-obviously translating with some freedom:  "But for a few individuals, in the comfort of their offices, to dispassionately decide. . . . "



Thank you, this is also very good. it think that Minnesota Guy has solved the problem of the green table really nicely..in effect it is, as he translated, in the comfort of some offices!


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## berndf

Minnesota Guy said:


> Just an attempt-obviously translating with some freedom:  "But for a few individuals, in the comfort of their offices, to dispassionately decide. . . . "


I don’t really detect the notion of "comfort" in the German phrase but as there is no perfect translation it would be a possibility. But you'd have to change "comfort of their offices" by "comfort of some conference room".

It is essential for this idiomatic expression that you have a group of people hammering out a solution in the seclusion of a (physical or virtual) conference room, agreeing among themselves but not with the outside world. If everybody sat in his own office and takes his own decisions separately the expression would not be applicable.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Kajjo, do you not like "armchair bureaucrats"?


Sorry for my late answer. Berndf explained it very well in #9. I agree with him.


elroy said:


> I'm not a fan of "calmness and composure" because they're positively connoted. "Unfazed" to me expresses what it meant here: that they are doing this as though it were the most ordinary thing in the world.


Well, _Gelassenheit_ surely is positively connotated in German, too, and probably this is intentional. I am not sure whether we should change this in translation. The adjective _unfazed_ ("unbeeindruckt") for "amtliche Ruhe" is not bad, but omits the "amtlich" which is quite typical for German routines... and probably again intentional. They do as as always carry out administrative orders, not matter how sensible or not such administrative orders might be. That's the whole point.



berndf said:


> I don’t really detect the notion of "comfort" in the German phrase


That's the point. Green table is NOT about comfort, not about lazyness, but about deciding in a conference setting, full of important words and intellectual discussions, but far from reality and practice.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> but far from reality and practice.


I would prefer to be a bit more soecific and say _with disregard for reality and those who have to live with it_.

The figurative expression _im Elfenbeinturm_ (_in the ivory tower_) that carries this notion of detachment from the world exists in German as well and it has a very different set of connotations than _am grünen Tisch_.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> _with disregard for reality and those who have to live with it_.


 Excellent.



berndf said:


> _im Elfenbeinturm_ (_in the ivory tower_) that carries this notion of detachment from the world exists in German as well and it has a very different set of connotations than _am grünen Tisch_.


 Indeed it does.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> They do as as always carry out administrative orders, not matter how sensible or not such administrative orders might be.


 That's what I tried to convey with "mechanical matter-of-factness."


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> That's what I tried to convey with "mechanical matter-of-factness."


_Mechanische Nüchternheit _is something different for me. I think we are all biased because we know the context too well. However, focusing on the translation I would say this term is too much interpretation and too far from the original.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> _Mechanische Nüchternheit _is something different for me. I think we are all biased because we know the context too well. However, focusing on the translation I would say this term is too much interpretation and too far from the original.


 "Mechanical" is used very frequently in English to refer to a certain way of doing work: where you're basically just doing what needs to be done without any emotional investment or attachment, or any passion, or any interest.  You're basically just doing it.  "Matter-of-fact" is more like "selbstverständlich" than "nüchtern"; it means that you perceive the work you're doing as something that is simply an ordinary part of life, that it doesn't warrant any out-of-the-ordinary reaction.

To me, this paints a pretty accurate picture of what the author is saying.

What I meant by "calm and composure" being positively connoted is that they sound like _good_ reactions to negative situations.  And we know that is _not _what the author is saying!


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## berndf

elroy said:


> To me, this paints a pretty accurate picture of what the author is saying.


He does say that throughout the quoted passage. - But not with this idiomatic expression. If you translate it this way you effectively leave out what this expression had to add to the sentence altogether.

What this expression adds is that it draws the distinction between two groups of people: Those who sit in HQ, in an SS villa at Wannsee, making the plans and those who are in the field and execute them. The attribute _mechanical_ fits the second group not the first. I have no idea how to phrase this elegantly in English; I can only explain what it means in the given context.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> "Mechanical" is used very frequently in English to refer to a certain way of doing work: where you're basically just doing what needs to be done without any emotional investment or attachment, or any passion, or any interest. You're basically just doing it.


Same usage and connotations in German.



elroy said:


> What I meant by "calm and composure" being positively connoted is that they sound like _good_ reactions to negative situations. And we know that is _not _what the author is saying!


I regard "composure" and "Gelassenheit" as a very fine translation of each other in this context, with quite similar connotations.

"Amtliche Ruhe" is more diffificult to translate. But this part of being official, bureaucratic, administrative... and being calm, tedious, slow... this is not about mechanical, but about how you would imagine a German _Beamter_ doing his job in a boring and not overly enthusiastic manner.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> The attribute _mechanical_ fits the second group not the first.


 And I used it in reference to the second group, so what's the problem? 


berndf said:


> I have no idea how to phrase this elegantly in English; I can only explain what it means in the given context.


 So what does it mean? 


Kajjo said:


> I regard "composure" and "Gelassenheit" as a very fine translation of each other in this context, with quite similar connotations.


 Again, the problem is that composure is something _desirable _in English.  If you say that someone did something with "composure," that's a good thing.  You're saying that the person didn't let the situation get to them, they didn't flip out, they didn't lose their cool, etc. - and that's a good thing.  In this context, the author is _criticizing_ the fact that these people didn't let the situation affect them, so "composure" doesn't really convey the right connotations.  Does "Gelassenheit" present the same issue in German?  


Kajjo said:


> "Amtliche Ruhe" is more diffificult to translate. But this part of being official, bureaucratic, administrative... and being calm, tedious, slow... this is not about mechanical, but about how you would imagine a German _Beamter_ doing his job in a boring and not overly enthusiastic manner.


 Maybe this is a difference in usage, because "mechanical" is used very frequently in English to express this very meaning.  Another less commonly used word for this is "perfunctory."


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Again, the problem is that composure is something _desirable _in English.


Again, the same is true in Germany and in German! Believe me! _Gelassenheit_ is usually very positive. I don't have it so much, unfortunately. 



elroy said:


> You're saying that the person didn't let the situation get to them, they didn't flip out, they didn't lose their cool, etc. - and that's a good thing.


Yes, indeed. The same is true in German.



elroy said:


> Does "Gelassenheit" present the same issue in German?


Yes, it does.



elroy said:


> Maybe this is a difference in usage, because "mechanical" is used very frequently in English to express this very meaning. Another less commonly used word for this is "perfunctory."


"Amtliche Ruhe" does not mean mechanical, perfunctory. It's NOT about oberflächlich, routinehaft, geistlos or robotormäßig.

It is about this kind of disimpassioned, steady working of _Beamte_ doing their job. Not being hurried, no matter how urgent a matter might be. Just keeping to the rules, keeping to their standard, doing their job.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> And I used it in reference to the second group, so what's the problem?


We are discussing the phrase _am grünen Tisch_, don't we?


elroy said:


> So what does it mean?


That _am grünen Tisch_ is an identifying characteristic of the first group.


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## Kajjo

I guess, back to the roots then,

_...that some persons in a conference room can coldly decide... 
_
is the best solution so far. Without interpreting too much, just translating.


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## elroy

Now we're discussing "amtliche Ruhe und Gelassenheit." 


Kajjo said:


> It is about this kind of disimpassioned, steady working of _Beamte_ doing their job. Not being hurried, no matter how urgent a matter might be. Just keeping to the rules, keeping to their standard, doing their job.


 What do you think of "businesslike" or "methodical"? 

One question: is it _[amtliche Ruhe] und [Gelassenheit]_ or _[amtliche [Ruhe und Gelassenheit]]_?  I.e. does "amtliche" modify "Ruhe" only or both nouns?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> One question: is it _[amtliche Ruhe] und [Gelassenheit]_ or _[amtliche [Ruhe und Gelassenheit]]_? I.e. does "amtliche" modify "Ruhe" only or both nouns?


Both is possible. I read it as "_(amtliche Ruhe) und (Gelassenheit)"_. The phrase "Ruhe und Gelassenheit" is very idiomatic and common, exactly in this order. Also the version "innere Ruhe und Gelassenheit" is very common, probably even more. There I read "(innere Ruhe) und", too, because "innere Gelassenheit" does not make much sense.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> in a conference room


 That's far too neutral.  It doesn't convey any particular connotations.  Also, "boardroom" would be more common.  I think we need to add something in English to compensate for the lack of a perfect equivalent of "am grünen Tisch."


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> What do you think of "businesslike" or "methodical"?


Well, in turn, it's me this time who regards these terms as too positive...

No, really, "_businesslike_" is considered to be the opposite to "_Beamtenmentalität"_. While _Beamte_ are often seen as drones and stupidly following orders and rules, business is understood as tough work and market-oriented. Quite the contrary.

_"Methodical" _is somewhat different altogether. 

No, you still need to visualise a German clerk sitting in his office, doing as being told, following all regulations and rules accurately, and particularly not being hurried. Not excessively slow, but just "fair enough".


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> That's far too neutral. It doesn't convey any particular connotations. Also, "boardroom" would be more common. I think we need to add something in English to compensate for the lack of a perfect equivalent of "am grünen Tisch."


Just found: Grüner Tisch – Wikipedia

Aus dem "Redensarten-Index" stammen diese weiteren Beispiele:



			
				Redensarten-Index said:
			
		

> Die besten Absichtserklärungen *am grünen* *Tisch* nützen nichts, wenn das Bündnis für Arbeit nicht in regionalen und betrieblichen Bündnissen umgesetzt wird"
> 
> "Doch Dewey wollte die Aufgabe nicht nur *am* *grünen* *Tisch* lösen, sondern seine Idee auch mit einem Prototypen auf ihre Praxistauglichkeit prüfen"
> 
> "... Dann würden nicht mehr irgendwelche anonymen Gremien *vom grünen* *Tisch* *aus* über die Zahlung von Behandlungen entscheiden, sondern der Patient selber - der ja *am* allermeisten an einer effektiven Therapie interessiert sein muss"
> 
> "Ziel des Projektes sollen Gestaltungskonzepte für den öffentlichen Raum des Kiezes sein, die jedoch nicht alleine *am* '*grünen* *Tisch* der Universität' erarbeitet werden, sondern in Zus*am*menarbeit mit den Menschen vor Ort"
> 
> "Da sich nicht alles *am* *grünen* *Tisch* entscheiden lässt, findet *am* 10. Januar 2002 eine Besprechung mit einer Ortsbegehung statt"



The contrast between "grüner Tisch" as theory vs reality/practice is decisive.

Concerning the concrete context: some high officials in a conference room deciding about this issue.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Now we're discussing "amtliche Ruhe und Gelassenheit."


Ah. Shouldn't that better make new thread? I will try to disentangle the discussions when I have a bit more time.


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## Kajjo

Linguee has some examples with
_
am grünen Tisch
= at the desk
= on a theoretical basis
= sitting on their tables in the capital and...
= on a drawing board

_


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## Ivo

Kajjo and Berndf,
I really want to thank you both for the discussion. here is what I have decided (using a lot of the input here):

"The hideous [scheußlich], which has happened here, the world has never seen. Of course, one can always find men in the past who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok, murdered and ravaged. But that some men in the comfort of a conference room would dispassionately decide that millions were to be exterminated, and that there were others who carried out these instructions with a bureaucratic calmness and composure, that is thus far unheard of "

While I understand, that this is not perfect, I find it sufficient. While calmness and composure are positive - everybody who will read this (and will read it in the context of my paper) will understand that here, Schmid, doesn't mean to praise the bereaucrats ..that in a way this is a very ironic way of evaluating their behavior....i.e. with composure and calmness would be good. but bureaucratic composure and calmness...when combined with the previous sentence (millions of dead people), that implies something completely different. Hence I am okay with the translation - and I thank you for the earlier suggestion to go with those words.
REgarding the green table.....again, the most important thing is to capture the larger meaning of the quote....which is connected to Wannsee reality. So using comfort (in this context) is not a bad way of getting at the fact what what happened and what Schmid was hinting at....grunter Tisch can mean theoretical..but it can also mean somewhere in a safe, quiet, disconnected location of a library room, office etc. And this is what happened..those guys sat at some table, and in comfort of these suroundings came up with that plan. So while there is no "comfort" in the sentence itself, I do think it expresses what Schimd was trying to say - and what happened.
Overall, I also really liked the word "unfazed" but was not able to integrate it in the sentence without destroying its natural flow.


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## elroy

Ivo said:


> "The hideous [scheußlich], which has happened here, the world has never seen. Of course, one can always find men in the past who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok, murdered and ravaged. But that some men in the comfort of a conference room would dispassionately decide that millions were to be exterminated, and that there were others who carried out these instructions with a bureaucratic calmness and composure, that is thus far unheard of "


 Do you care about the quality of the English?  Because your translation has grammar and diction issues.


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## Ivo

elroy said:


> Do you care about the quality of the English?  Because your translation has grammar and diction issues.



Elroy, yes I do. I tried to do my best there...was not aware of those. If you can point them out, I would be grateful. 
how about this then: 

"The hideousness [scheußlich], which has happened here, the world has never seen. Of course, one can always find men in the past who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok, murdered and ravaged. But for a few people to dispassionately decide in the comfort of a conference room that millions were to be exterminated, and for others to carry out these instructions with bureaucratic calmness and composure, that is unheard of".

Would this be better?


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## berndf

Ivo said:


> While I understand, that this is not perfect, I find it sufficient. While calmness and composure are positive - everybody who will read this (and will read it in the context of my paper) will understand that here, Schmid, doesn't mean to praise the bereaucrats ..that in a way this is a very ironic way of evaluating their behavior....i.e. with composure and calmness would be good. but bureaucratic composure and calmness...when combined with the previous sentence (millions of dead people), that implies something completely different. Hence I am okay with the translation - and I thank you for the earlier suggestion to go with those words.


Yes, that is fine. But then I would modify _in the comfort of a conference room_ to _in the quiet of some conference room_ (_some _instead of_ a _to translate _irgend einem_).


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## Ivo

_"in the quiet of some conference room"_
great point! I will change that.


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## elroy

Here are some improvements:

"What happened here - the world has never seen anything so atrocious. Of course, over the course of history there have always been people who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok and murdered and ravaged. But for a few individuals to coldly decide from the comfort of some conference room that millions were to be exterminated, and for people to actually carry out their orders with the calmness and composure of apathetic office workers, is something that was unheard of before now".

(I'm sorry, berndf, but I completely disagree with "in the quiet" - doesn't work for me at all.)


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## Kajjo

Ivo said:


> But for a few people to dispassionately decide in the comfort of a conference room that millions were to be exterminated, and for others to carry out these instructions with bureaucratic calmness and composure, that is unheard of"


I like your version and don't think that the underlined parts need to be changes.


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## elroy

There is no good reason to use "dispassionately" instead of "coldly."  "For others to carry out" doesn't have the emphasis of the original.  "Bureaucratic calmness and composure" makes no sense in English.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> There is no good reason to use "dispassionately" instead of "coldly."


Coldly is fine for me, too. Dispassionately renders the lack of emotional involvement quite fine, too, I believe.



elroy said:


> "Bureaucratic calmness and composure" makes no sense in English.


I don't understand why this should not make any sense. It's straightforward. I'd like to hear the opinions of other natives (@Dan2 ?).


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> Coldly is fine for me, too. Dispassionately renders the lack of emotional involvement quite fine, too, I believe.


 "Kalt" and "coldly" are perfect equivalents in this case.  English has the same exact metaphor so "coldly" is clearly the best choice here. 





> I don't understand why this should not make any sense.


 "Bureaucratic" can't be used this way to mean "of a bureaucrat."  Also, "bureaucrat" in English doesn't specifically refer to everyday office workers/clerks.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> "Bureaucratic" can't be used this way to mean "of a bureaucrat."


Hm, the examples given in Collins are fitting quite well, e.g. _bureaucratic burden/nightmare/system/incompetence_.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> bureaucratic burden/nightmare/system/incompetence


 The only one that is comparable to our example is "incompetence," because that's something that can describe an individual bureaucrat.  However, for me "bureaucratic incompetence" in the Collins examples (pasted below) doesn't mean "the incompetence (typical) of a bureaucrat" but "the incompetence characterizing bureaucratic systems/bureaucracies."

_It might be cost, it might be risk or it might be some sort of bureaucratic incompetence.
Throughout its miserable life, this monument to bureaucratic incompetence has failed the poor kids it was set up to serve._

Another example: "the dignity of a democrat," not "democratic dignity"


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## Kajjo

Ok, so you would agree to...

_with the calmness and composure of bureaucrats_


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> _with the calmness and composure of bureaucrats_


 I would prefer "of a bureaucrat."  And I would prefer "apathetic office workers" (or something like that) because that's more specific.  Bureaucrats can be high-ranking individuals within a bureaucracy, whereas in this context the meaning (based on your descriptions) is lower-ranking office workers.


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## Ivo

elroy said:


> Here are some improvements:
> 
> "What happened here - the world has never seen anything so atrocious. Of course, over the course of history there have always been people who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok and murdered and ravaged. But for a few individuals to coldly decide from the comfort of some conference room that millions were to be exterminated, and for people to actually carry out their orders with the calmness and composure of apathetic office workers, is something that was unheard of before now".
> 
> (I'm sorry, berndf, but I completely disagree with "in the quiet" - doesn't work for me at all.)



Elroy, yeah, that sounds more native for sure. Thank you for rewriting this for me!!!


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I'm sorry, berndf, but I completely disagree with "in the quiet" - doesn't work for me at all.


On what grounds? "In the quite of a/some conference room" is certainly acceptable English. You must have some semantic reasons for rejecting it. "Doesn't work for me at all" is too unspecific.


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## Kajjo

"apathetic" does not work for me at all. It is much too far away from the German original. It projects your political opinion into translation.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> On what grounds?


 "In the quiet of" may be grammatically correct, but it is an odd choice here; it sounds kind of poetic/literary.  More importantly, it doesn't convey the connotations we've been discussing here.  "Comfort" does a much better job. 


Kajjo said:


> "apathetic" does not work for me at all.


 Now it's my turn to ask you the same question berndf asked me.   This was my attempt at conveying what you described about "Beamte."  "Apathetic" means they're not passionate about or invested in what they're doing; they don't _care_ about it.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> More importantly, it doesn't convey the connotations we've been discussing here. "Comfort" does a much better job.


I was afraid you would say that. It leaves me in doubt if would have really properly understood the metaphor.


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## elroy

Well, I can only go off of what's been said here.  Based on that, "comfort" works but "quiet" does not.

I wonder if _you_ properly understand the rhetorical usage of "from the comfort of...". It's not literally about comfort.  In this context, it would be about being distanced from reality, etc. - i.e. the things you've said here.

Honestly, I was surprised you even brought up "quiet."  It doesn't match your earlier explanations of the German metaphor.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I wonder if _you_ properly understand the rhetorical usage of "from the comfort of...". It's not literally about comfort. In this context, *it would be about being distanced from reality*, etc. - i.e. the things you've said here.


Not really. At the core of the expression you suggested is that the something is provided or made possible at a convenient location. It often even means the exact opposite, namely that you can stay in touch with reality while remaining at a convenient location:
_Watching movies from the comfort of your home.
Wouldn't it be lovely to skip that morning rush for the train, avoid those overcrowded buses and work from the comfort of your own home?...practitioner professional office prefers to have certain meetings or presentations in the comfort of a conference room rather than over a desk in an office.
 Most fund managers get their research in the comfort of a conference room. 
We don't consult from the comfort of a conference room, we much prefer to jump into the trenches
Now imagine doing all of this from the comfort of a conference room table, where all of “the powers that be” are seated comfortably, all seeing the same images_

I agree that _quiet _is also not brilliant.



elroy said:


> Now it's my turn to ask you the same question berndf asked me.  This was my attempt at conveying what you described about "Beamte." "Apathetic" means they're not passionate about or invested in what they're doing; they don't _care_ about it.


No, this one you profoundly misunderstood. The Prussian officer or _Beamter _performs his duty with the discipline of a calm mind and does not allow his own emotions or opinions get in the way doing efficiently and diligently exactly what is expected of him. Because he *is* invested in what he is doing he would never allow irrelevant feelings like _compassion_ to divert his focus.


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## bearded

elroy said:


> Here are some improvements:
> "What happened here - the world has never seen anything so atrocious. Of course, over the course of history there have always been people who, in a murderous frenzy, ran amok and murdered and ravaged. But for a few individuals to coldly decide from the comfort of some conference room that millions were to be exterminated, and for people to actually carry out their orders with the calmness and composure of apathetic office workers, is something that was unheard of before now".


I like that version, but would have one suggestion and one question/objection (probably unjustified):
- I would suggest a minor change for style reasons:  ''Naturally, over the course of history..'' in order to avoid the repetition ''of course over the course''
and
-  you say > for a few individuals to..decide.. is something that was unheard of <
Is it correct in English to say ''For me to do this, is something unheard of''? I would have said instead: ''But that a few individuals would/could coldly decide... is something ..unheard of''. That's because the final clause ''for a few individuals to decide..'' seems to me to be unfit as a subject for the verbal phrase ''is something..''. But maybe I'm wrong, or native speakers' syntax is a bit more elastic than mine..


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> No, this one you profoundly misunderstood. The Prussian officer or _Beamter _performs his duty with the discipline of a calm mind and does not allow his own emotions or opinions get in the way doing efficiently and diligently exactly what is expected of him. Because he *is* invested in what he is doing he would never allow irrelevant feelings like _compassion_ to divert his focus.


 I agree.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> Not really. At the core of the expression you suggested is that the something is provided or made possible at a convenient location.


 No.  Not in this case.  You've confirmed my suspicion that you did in fact misunderstand the expression in this context.  It has nothing to do with convenience whatsoever.


berndf said:


> The Prussian officer or _Beamter _performs his duty with the discipline of a calm mind and does not allow his own emotions or opinions get in the way doing efficiently and diligently exactly what is expected of him. Because he *is* invested in what he is doing he would never allow irrelevant feelings like _compassion_ to divert his focus.


 I meant "not _emotionally_ or _personally_ invested" (this is a common use of "invested," at least in American English).  I did not "profoundly misunderstand" anything.  I understood Kajjo's explanation.  These people perform their duties to a tee, but they do not _personally care_ about the service they're providing; they're not living out one of their values or principles or passions.  There may be better words than "apathetic," but I can assure you I understand what is meant here. 


bearded said:


> ''Naturally, over the course of history..''


 I don't like "naturally" here, which makes it sound like it's only to be expected that this would be the case.  To avoid "of course," you could say "to be sure."


bearded said:


> Is it correct in English to say ''For me to do this, is something unheard of''?


 Yes.  In fact, "for x to do y" is very idiomatic as a noun phrase and often more idiomatic than "that x would do y."


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## berndf

elroy said:


> You've confirmed my suspicion that you did in fact misunderstand the expression in this context. It has nothing to do with convenience


I don't think so. The expression _from the comfort of my home_ means either just _at home _as some dictionaries represent it in which case it means nothing and is therefore not a suitable translation; or it characterises the location as in some way convenient as the attestations suggest.

Your suggestion that the expression is somehow related to being disconnected from the world is abundantly disproved by the attestations.


elroy said:


> I meant "not _emotionally_ or _personally_ invested"


Exactly. And that is wrong. A Prussian officer is very personally invested in what matters to him: fulfilling his duty.

Someone who does his work _apathetically_ does not care much about his work and only does it because and to the extent to which he has to. That is completely the wrong connotation. The emotional indifference is towards the plight of the people affected, not towards the work. Specifically, SS officers involved in the _Endlösung_ were particularly proud of their professional emotional detachment that allowed them to do their work more efficiently. Do you remember this infamous Himmler speech to a group of high ranking SS officers where he bragged about it?


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## elroy

Bernd, the use of "from the comfort of..." in this case is _rhetorical_, so I'm not surprised that it's not readily attested.  "From the comfort of some conference room" here means that they are "protected from" or "insulated against" reality.  It's a rhetorical device - and a very effective one, at that.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Bernd, the use of "from the comfort of..." in this case is _rhetorical_, so I'm not surprised that it's not readily attested.  "From the comfort of some conference room" here means that they are "protected from" or "insulated against" reality.  It's a rhetorical device - and a very effective one, at that.


I think I can see (feel) that. Still leaves me uneasy because I feel something different in the German expression (which is also a rhetoric device), it is not about being protected from but about not caring about the outside.

But since I don't really have something better to offer, I'll stop the argument here. It is better than nothing.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> it is not about being protected from but about not caring about the outside.


 The "being protected" part is rhetorical.  The private, distant conference room "protects" them from having to face or deal with reality; it provides them the luxury of not having to care.

I think the expression here is more than "better than nothing"; as a rhetorical device, I find it very fitting.  But if I do think of something better, I'll definitely post it.


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## berndf

I thought a bit more what I connect with the German expression. A certain notion of people making things _easy_ for themselves by ignoring what their decisions mean for real people is present. In this respect, if a certain notion of convenience sneaks in in the English translation it is finally not that bad. Your suggestion still doesn't refect all the facets but at least it doesn't involve any wrong associations. I've made my peace with it.


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## elroy

I just learned the word "jobsworth" and it reminded me of this thread.  Not sure if it fits, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case.


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## berndf

Yes, describing these SS officers as _jobsworths_ captures the gist of what Carlo Schmid wanted to express, though it might be a bit of an understatement.


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