# to happen / to fall



## ThomasK

I thought of the word *'uitvallen'* in Dutch (fall out, literally), meaning *'to turn out'*. as in : 'Het viel nog goed uit' [Things turned out well after all]. --- We can then say: *'Het viel mee/ viel tegen' *[Things turned out well/ not well (not as expected)], something like, lit.: 'Things *fell along *[parallel with the way we expected it, I think/ I interpret]/ *fell against*). 

Of course that is not so strange: in Latin we have *casus *(case, _geval _in Dutch), *coincidentia *(_toe-val _in Dutch). My question: do you use something like _vallen _in such cases ?

I am not so sure but
- I think English uses *to turn *more often (turn out, turn awry/ wrong, ...), in some cases something like *to come *(outcome, _e-vent_). 
- In French it might be _*rouler* _(_se dérouler_) [I have no clue whether se passer refers to a movement]
- In Dutch it might also be _*lopen*,_ to run_(alles liep goed af, things worked out well/ for the better (?))

_I suggest we focus on very common verbs referring to movement, not to the historical verbs except if they refer to some 'basic' movement as well...


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

In the standard language, to happen is «συμβαίνω» [sim'veno] a Classical Greek verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō)--> lit. _to be joined to someone, walk with/by him/her_ metaph. (since Classical times) _come to pass, fall out, happen_. Compound, prefix and preposition «σὺν» (sūn)--> _with, together with_ (of unknown origin) + verb «βαίνω» (bænō, ['veno] in modern pronunciation), Mycenaean Greek *bamjo --> _to walk, step_, from PIE base *gwā-, _to go_, which produces the neuter noun «βῆμα» ('bēmă), Doric «βᾶμα» ('bāmă), Modern Greek «βήμα» ['vima] --> _step, pace_; similar concept with the Latin "coincidere".
The thing which happens is either, 
1/ a «συμβάν» (sim'van)--> _incident, event_; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «συμβάν» (sūm'bān) was the neuter participle of the 2nd aorist tense of the verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō) turned into a stranded noun with identical meaning, or,
2/ a «γεγονός» (ʝeɣo'nos)--> _incident, event_; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «γεγονός» (gĕgŏ'nŏs) was the neuter participle of the past perfect tense of the verb «γίγνομαι» ('gĭgnŏmæ)--> _to come into being_, turned into a stranded noun.
Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. _crooked_) on me".

PS: In the modern language «συμβάν» carries more of a negative meaning, i.e. an  accident is simply a «γεγονός», a tragic accident is more like a «συμβάν».
Coincidently my deepest condolences to your nation TK, for yesterday's tragic «συμβάν»


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!

Could you comment on the roots of the words in bold: 


> Colloquially we say that things «μου *γύρισαν ανάποδα*» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down [my feet, /poda/ ?] on me", or, «μου *πήγαν στραβά*» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. _crooked_) on me".



Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?


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## apmoy70

«Γύρισαν» ['ʝirisan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «γυρίζω» [ʝi'rizo] lit. "to turn around" (gyros anyone? ). It's plural, because things in Greek is a neuter pl. noun.
«Ανάποδα» [a'napoða] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Byzantine saying «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» (a'na ton 'poða) lit. "up by the foot"; it was a common medieval practice to hang criminals (thieves, killers etc) from the feet with the head downwards «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» so that people could hit/curse/spit on their faces.

«Πήγαν» ['piɣan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «πάω» (Classical «ὑπάγω»), lit. "to go away, withdraw, retire".
«Στραβά» [stra'va] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Classical adj. «στρεβλός, -λὴ, -λόν» (strĕ'blŏs _m._/strĕ'blē _f._/strĕ'blŏn _n._)--> _twisted, crooked_. 



			
				ThomasK said:
			
		

> Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?


Actually, no, both «γεγονός» and «συμβάν» are sudden and irrevocable incidents; they happen suddenly, are rare and instantaneous. An incident that is continuous or repeated, becomes a «κατάσταση» [ka'tastasi] (fem. noun) a chronic recurrence/chronic condition.     



			
				ThomasK said:
			
		

> Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!


It was the first thing that came to my mind, what a tragedy!


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## ThomasK

Great information, Apmoy, thanks a lot. And I understand there is indeed a difference between an _ac-cide-nt_ and a κατάσταση...


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*.

The verb 'happen, occur, take place' is _tapahtua_ (related to _tapa_, "way of doing"?) or _sattua_ (which also means 'hurt' as in 'It hurts'). As for related words, I recognize the idea of walking/going/moving forward/being in movement:

_Kaikki kävi parhain päin._ Everything turned out well. (käydä = (_roughly_) walk)
_Asiat kulkevat omaa rataansa._ The things follow their own course. (= you cannot affect things too much, just as the Earth follows its 'path' through space with little interference; _kulke__a_ = (_roughly_) move, progress forward)

Could the expressions _How's it going__?_ (Miten menee?) and _The exam went well_. (Koe meni hyvin.) be related, by the way? There's something similar in them, the way I see it. Happening (/result) is connected to moving. Could you use _uitvallen_ to describe an exam?


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## ThomasK

That's great information. Lots of movement in events in Finnish! 

Some notes: 
- _*to do* = to happen _? There might be something like that in French: _comment ça se fait qu'il y a ... ? _ [How does it do/ is it done ... ?] - but I am not a native speaker]
- _käydä _reminds me of our uitlopen (run > turn out to...), French (se dé-)rouler
- _move_: I don't see a link in Dutch
-_* go/ men-/ gaan*_: oh, yes, they are related indeed, or so I think. We have quite the same expressions, and I can recognize them in other IE languages as well


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## mataripis

In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.


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## ThomasK

I am afraid (2) is not what I meant. What I meant is: can you use a verb of movement to describe the event of happening, or the outcome ? I suppose not though.


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## tFighterPilot

Hebrew: (not common) נפל דבר Nafal davar means "Something has happened". Nafal means "fell".


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## ThomasK

That 's very interesting, thanks !


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## mataripis

mataripis said:


> In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.


I see!  this should be 1.)May pangyayari and 2.)May kaganapan  (they can be used to describe the events taking place)


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## ThomasK

So you can use 'kaganapan' for fruit falling from trees then as well ?


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## francisgranada

Hungarian:

*megesik -* it happens
meg - _perfective prefix 
_esik - he/she/it falls

*előfordul *- it happens, occurs
elő -_ prefix (_cca. "fore", "ahead")
fordul- he/she/it turns

(the traslations are approximative)

P.S. The verb *menni *(to go) can be used in a similar way like in Finnish (post #6), but it expresses rather the _way _how things happen and not the _fact _that they happen.


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## ThomasK

Very interesting, thanks: so I recognize the use of falling and turning, as in Dutch. Great to discover.


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## rayloom

Arabic also has such a verb. وقع waqa3a, which means either "to fall" or "to happen"
If you say وقع الشيء, it can mean "something fell" (as in literally fell down) or "something happened".


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## ThomasK

Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?


mataripis said:


> In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.



I got some extra information from a lady I met: 


> YARI can only mean "happen"when the prefix "pang" is added, as in PANGYAYARI (with the extra "ya" turning the extra verb into a noun:
> 
> yari:  caused by or made by
> pangyayari : event (mga pangyayari : events)
> nangyari:  has happened"


That seems to imply that events in Tagalog do not 'fall', but they might 'be generated' (as in French: _ça se produit _???), so it seems...


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## arielipi

Its not unfamiliar in hebrew for come out[=outcome]:
כך יצא cach yatza - so it has turned out[= it happened to be so; the outcome turned to be thus].
יצא is used for 'going out/to (of something/place)'


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## aruniyan

in Tamil.


to happen= to walk = *nada*


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## ThomasK

Thanks but could you analyse 'cach yatza' (say what means what)? Thanks !


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## arielipi

כך is so,thus
יצא is turned out( or exited),
but when combined they form what i wrote in my earlier post.


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## ThomasK

I see. Can you use 'cach' in very literal ways? Could you illustrate that with an example? [Thanks]


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## arielipi

What do you mean very literal ways?


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## ThomasK

Well, can you say : let's _cach _[go out] this evening? Or have I understood the meaning wrongly? I am thinking of the literal, non-figurative/ non-metaphorical meanings of cach (if that is the verb)...


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## arielipi

no, cach is 'so/thus'; yatza is the verb 'turned out/exited'.
cach can also be 'such'.

בוא נצא הערב bow'u netze ha'erev( lets go out this evening) uses yatza in future form.
תשים את הדברים כך שיהיה מסודר tasim et hadvarim cach sheyihiye mesudar - put things such that[=in a way that] (everything) will be organized.
כך עושים זאת cach osim zot thats how you do it.

כך is a tricky word because its one of the only few words that exist in hebrew and not in english.


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## ThomasK

This becomes intriguing. _*Cach *_then does not simply mean 'such', I understand. (But maybe we ought to go into this via a PM (personal message) if not so relevant... )


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## arielipi

If this attempt wont provide full explanation then you can pm me,
cach can be thought of as 'in (a/the) way things are...(verbing).


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## sound shift

In English we have "to be*fall*", meaning "to take place", "to happen to", but the house dictionary describes it as "archaic/literary" (and I wouldn't argue with that).


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## Gavril

Welsh *digwydd *"happen" < _di_- "from" + _cwydd_-, as seen in _cwyddo _"fall, descend".


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## ThomasK

Three years later I thought of the idea of *(r)evolution*, which we translate as _ontwikkeling _(evol..., de-velopment - so no genuine translation of 'evolution', more like a paraphrase) or *omwenteling *(round-turning, lit.) . Lat. _*volvere *_means 'to turn'...

 The typical word for happening, *gebeuren*, contains the root 'beur-', which we also have in '(om) *beurt'*, i.e. '(taking) turns','mijn beurt', i.e., 'my turn'.


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## 123xyz

Macedonian:

се случува/случи - standard verb for "to happen", with the root "луч-", the meaning of which I'm not familiar with. It's also featured in "одлучува/одлучи", meaning "to decide". In Russian, you also have "получать/получить" (to obtain) and "разлучать/разлучить" (to separate) with the same root. Either way, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with falling.
бидне - а colloquial verb for "to happen", only perfective (though it could have an imperfective form derived from it, namely "биднува", which is rarely used), derived from "биде", the future (also in da-constructions) stem of "сум", namely "to be". 
се дешава/деси - a colloquial verb for "to happen", taken from Serbian; it can't pass in literature, unlike the former; the root's meaning has apparently got something to do with fate, but certainly not with "to fall"

A verb related to "to happen" with the root meaning "to fall" (пад-):
спопаѓа/спопадне - to befall, which is evidently equivalent to "to happen to", except that it's transitive rather than intransitive with the dative


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## ThomasK

As for happening and deciding: the _caedere _in decision reminds me of falling, or of felling (making fall). If you have the same root in the verbs for obtaining and separating, there ought to be some link, but of course there might well have been semantic shifts of all kinds. obtaining and separating might share some feature, viz., their "finality" (it cannot be changed, it is final - in principle). 

_(In the meantime I've found a list with the Cyrillic signs, but no word list with some useful words/concepts...)_


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## ger4

The Macedonian alphabet has a few extra letters - listed here.


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## Outsider

I didn't think we had this in Portuguese, but I've just remembered the verb _calhar_, *to happen (by chance), or to fit*, related to the noun _calha_, a drainpipe or conduit.


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## ThomasK

I forgot an important one: *evolution*. _Volvere_ is turning...


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> I forgot an important one: *evolution*. _Volvere_ is turning...


Yes, _evolutio _(Lat.) derives from the verb _volvere_. Thus e.g. the Spanish _volver, revolver, devolver ..., _Italian _volgere, rivolgersi, ..., _but also the English_ revolver _(kind of gun)_, evolution, revolution, devolution, involve, etc ...,  _all these words come from the same Latin root, expressing the idea of "turn, turning". (BTW the verb _to turn_ is also from Latin ...).


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## ThomasK

Thanks. I also remembered the Dutch _gebeuren_, which should mean and have meant "happen to". However, "beurt(rol)" is "tour de (rôle)" in French, so I think there is some idea of turning involved, which I mentioned in passing with reference to English in #32.

That is also suggested by the Wheel (turning) of Fortune, I think: is it a coincidence that the wheel is chosen? _[It is late and I might be jumping to (some unjustified) conclusions. Please correct me if I am wrong...]_


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## Dymn

*Spanish*: _acaecer_ (_a-_ + _cae _"fall" + _-ecer_ [inchoative suffix]) is a formal word for "to happen". Others are _pasar _(colloquial), _suceder_ and _ocurrir _(a bit formal). "To turn out" could be _salir_ "to go out": _todo va a salir bien _("everything's gonna be fine"). Or maybe _quedar _"to remain" (_quedo _is a cognate of _quiet_), if you're supposed to "fit" somewhere: _he quedado fatal en la foto (_"I'm horrible in the photo"), _quedar preñada_ ("to get pregnant").


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## ThomasK

So time and again we find the concept of falling, which is logical: we have no control over what is happening... I am surprised though how often it turns up. 

I wonder if there were a parallel with Chinese, Japanese, Korean...


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## Dymn

As for _volv-_, there is _develop_ too (un-wrap): and French _développer_, Catalan _desenvolupar_, Italian _sviluppare_, as well as Portuguese and Spanish which use a Romance equivalent (_desenvolver _and _desarrollar_ respectively).

What about "to fall" as in "to occur on a certain day", e.g. _Last year Christmas fell on Thursday. _This usage appears in Catalan and Spanish as well.


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## Sardokan1.0

In Sardinian language the verbs for To Happen or To Fall don't mix like that, but there is a third verb, which is a synonymous of both verbs that can be used to replace them like in the situation mentioned above.
_
To happen = Sutzèdere
To fall = Rùere (Latin "rŭĕre" = to collapse)_

synonymous verb :

_Falare _= to descend (Latin "devallare, devalare" = to descend)

This verb can be used as synonymous of To Happen and To Fall

Example :

_Che so faladu ind'unu fossu_ = I've fallen into a trench
_Ite raju qui lis est faladu_ = (Literally) What a lightning that has fallen upon them. (Meaning) What a disgrace that has happened to them.


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## ThomasK

Dymn said:


> As for _volv-_, there is _develop_ too (un-wrap): and French _développer_, Catalan _desenvolupar_, Italian _sviluppare_, as well as Portuguese and Spanish which use a Romance equivalent (_desenvolver _and _desarrollar_ respectively).
> 
> What about "to fall" as in "to occur on a certain day", e.g. _Last year Christmas fell on Thursday. _This usage appears in Catalan and Spanish as well.


 I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as _volvere_. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!



Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Sardinian language the verbs for To Happen or To Fall don't mix like that, but there is a third verb, which is a synonymous of both verbs that can be used to replace them like in the situation mentioned above.
> _
> To happen = Sutzèdere
> To fall = Rùere (Latin "rŭĕre" = to collapse)_
> 
> synonymous verb :
> 
> _Falare _= to descend (Latin "devallare, devalare" = to descend)
> 
> This verb can be uses as synonymous of To Happen and To Fall
> 
> Example :
> 
> _Che so faladu ind'unu fossu_ = I've fallen into a trench
> _Ite raju qui lis est faladu_ = (Literally) What a lightning that has fallen upon them. (Meaning) What a disgrace that has happened to them.


You are referring to three verbs here, aren't you: _sutzèdere, rùere, falare_. But is _ruere_ also a verb meaning 'to happen'?

Would you not think in the last case (_raju/ faladu_) we have a verb meaning falling literally, but used metaphorically here? You use 'happen'in your translation indeed, but I am inclined to think that it is not the official meaning mentioned in a dictionary. Or am I mistaken? Thanks!


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## Sardokan1.0

ThomasK said:


> I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as _volvere_. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!
> 
> 
> You are referring to three verbs here, aren't you: _sutzèdere, rùere, falare_. But is _ruere_ also a verb meaning 'to happen'?
> 
> Would you not think in the last case (_raju/ faladu_) we have a verb meaning falling literally, but used metaphorically here? You use 'happen'in your translation indeed, but I am inclined to think that it is not the official meaning mentioned in a dictionary. Or am I mistaken? Thanks!




Ruere only means "to fall"; literally; I don't think to have ever heard it as synonymous of "to happen".

But the synonymous "Falare" is more flexible, Falare means "to descend, to go down" (go down the stairs, get out of the car etc.etc.), but it's used as synonymous of "to fall" (notice how Falare - Fall  sound similar!). Indeed in the last phrase the verb can be translated as "descended, fallen, or also happened" if we stretch its meaning.


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as _volvere_. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!


_Velop- _comes from French which in turn comes from the same Germanic root as "wrap". I don't think it's cognate with _volvere_, the relationship is only semantical then.


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## ilocas2

no connection in Czech between these two


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## kaverison

In Tamil, விழு - vizhu = fall; I don't recall this being used in the same context as English or any European languages mentioned here. 
We use the fall in some context though - to get caught in a plot - அவன் வலையில் விழுந்தான் - avan valayil vizhunthaan, literally he fell in the web/net.

I always here some similarities between us and Finnish, one being agglutinate. I see another similarity here. We use walk to mean happen.
நட - nada = literally means walk. We often use it to mean happen (like in நடந்தது - nadanthathu = (lit. walked to mean) happened, நடக்கிறது - nadakkiRathu = walking).. 

நல்லதே நடக்கும் - nallathE nadakkum = good will (always) happen. 
கல்யாணம் நடக்கும் - kalyaNam nadakkum = Marriage will happen
காரியம் நடந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறது - kaariyam nadanthu kondu irukkiRathu = event is happening

etc

We also say வாழ்க்கை ஓடுது = vaazhkkai ooduthu = life goes on (literally life running)


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## ThomasK

Thanks again. So no falling here, as far as I can see. But how do you translate "to fall"? What words are derived from it? 


kaverison said:


> I always here some similarities between us and Finnish, one being agglutinate. I see another similarity here. *We use walk to mean happen=That reminds me of run/ lopen in Dutch: it can refer to happen too!*
> 
> நல்லதே நடக்கும் - nallathE nadakkum = good will (always) happen.
> கல்யாணம் நடக்கும் - kalyaNam nadakkum = Marriage will happen/ t*ake place*
> காரியம் நடந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறது - kaariyam adanthu kondu irukkiRathu = event is happening
> We also say வாழ்க்கை ஓடுது = vaazhkkai ooduthu = *life goes on (literally life running) - We would say: time is running up or something the like. *


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## kaverison

> *We use walk to mean happen=That reminds me of run/ lopen in Dutch: it can refer to happen too!*


As this FB page would have it, it all came from Tamil .

Fall in Tamil is *விழு *- *vizhu*. I just realized, we use it a lot in various contexts. 

*வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan *to mean defeated, killed as in a war.

*எரிந்து விழு** - erinthu vizhu = *literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down.

*விழுது *(n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree

*விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம்* - *vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam* = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.

*விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு -** vizunthu adithu koNdu = *literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.

*ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - **oottu vizhunthathu = *Literally, "Vote fell" or votes cast.

*பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu *= Lottery (ticket) that won prize

*துண்டூ விழுந்தது -** thundu vizhunthathu = *Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or running short in budget,.

*(தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola = *literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)  
to mean a disastrous or shocking situation.

*காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = *literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to beg and plead.

*காதில் விழுந்தது - **kaathil vizhnthathu - *literally fell in ear = something (I) heard

*(அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu *= fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize.

*விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka* = fall fall laugh = roughly rolling laugh

*விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi* = fall fall study = to study hard

*விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram* = fall, fall, serve = falling all over

*விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu* = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed 
and in human context, the crack in a relationship.


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## ThomasK

This is extensive information. Yet, *I'd prefer to focus on [-pers.] "to fall" in the meaning of things happening*. I'd prefer not to refer to the [+ pers.] "to fall", which is the literal *falling on the floor *and all the meanings based on that. 

Below I had a look at your expressions and tried to make a distinction between the two meanings. I do not know whether I was right. Just tried. But let us focus on happening. 



kaverison said:


> As this FB page would have it, it all came from Tamil . Fall in Tamil is *விழு *- *vizhu*. I just realized, we use it a lot in various contexts.
> -
> *[-pers.] HAPPEN
> 
> ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - oottu vizhunthathu = *Literally, "Vote fell" or *votes cast.
> 
> பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu *= *Lottery (ticket) that won prize / the FALLEN TICKETt?
> 
> காதில் விழுந்தது - kaathil vizhnthathu - *literally *fell in ear = **something (I) heard (like conspicuous, something striking)
> 
> (அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu *= fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize. *PLEASE PUT in a sentence...
> 
> (தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola = *literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)
> to mean a disastrous or shocking situatio*n.* Does it refer to the situation?* Rather to the event, I suppose: something like a shock, no?  English: STRUCK, but OK, one can also consider it as falling.*
> 
> 
> [+ pers.] FALL
> 
> *வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan *to mean defeated, killed as in a war. *SNEUVELEN (separate word in Dutch)*
> 
> *எரிந்து விழு** - erinthu vizhu = *literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down. *WHAT IS THE LINK WITH FALLING - burning down and thus making fall?
> 
> விழுது *(n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree -* they SMOTHER other trees, like parasites, making them fall? *
> 
> *விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம்* - *vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam* = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.
> 
> *விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு -** vizunthu adithu koNdu = *literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.
> *The above two: THREE IN ONE? Running for one's life does not imply falling, but it may happen of course... How do you link the three in both cases? *
> 
> *துண்டூ விழுந்தது -** thundu vizhunthathu = *Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or *running short in budget,.*  BECAUSE YOU LOST YOUR PURSE, not literally but figuratively?
> 
> *காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = *literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to *beg and plead.*
> 
> 
> *விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka* = fall fall laugh = roughly *rolling laugh, falling with laughter? *
> 
> *விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi* = fall fall study = to study hard ,* CRAMMING, falling due to exhaustion? *
> 
> *விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram* = fall, fall, serve = falling all over (LIKE BOWING?)
> 
> *விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu* = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed
> and in human context, the crack in a relationship. -- something like *HAPPEN SUDDENLY*?


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## sound shift

In the nineteenth century, "fall" could mean "happen" in British English: how did that fall (WR thread).


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## ThomasK

Really… that remindede me of "b*efall'*, which is similar in meaning, I guess, but needing an object. German and Dutch have something similar: *ge-fallen *(GER)/ *be-vallen *(DUT), meaning to please, but of course does that have to with happening??? There is also *bevallen *in Dutch, giving birth, and that might be more related as it is to a large extent at least uncontrollable…


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## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> This is extensive information. Yet, *I'd prefer to focus on [-pers.] "to fall" in the meaning of things happening*. I'd prefer not to refer to the [+ pers.] "to fall", which is the literal *falling on the floor *and all the meanings based on that.



*Before we start, I have a question: **Can you please explain what** [-pers.] **mean? Is it a BB code?*

Sorry for the late reply. Agreed. Sorry I got carried away with my "own discovery" of the words that I didn't realize, existed. But the fall in the bottom portion are not literal falling. Like I said, Tamil is very dramatic with expressions. For e.g., *விழுந்து விழுந்து* is not fall , fall, but refers to how one would work up a sweat in doing something - to show how much attention/intensity is given to the action. Not literal fall to the ground. If this did not convey the meaning I intended, it is my own limitation in translating it.

That said, let me focus on the words related to the topic.

*[-pers.] HAPPEN

ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - oottu vizhunthathu = *Literally, "Vote fell" or *votes cast.

பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu *= *Lottery (ticket) that won prize / the FALLEN TICKETt?
Not the fallen but the winning (falling here probably refers to imagery of something falling in a slot)

காதில் விழுந்தது - kaathil vizhnthathu - *literally *fell in ear = something (I) heard (like conspicuous, something striking)*
*This means more like hearsay. I think the "words" fell in the ear (in English too - fall on deaf ears)*

*(அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu *= fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize. *PLEASE PUT in a sentence...*

*here is an usage of this to mean "Instead of her  falling into the word of our people (society) and dying a slow death, this is way better" 
roughly to mean, she will die of shame being criticized/ridiculed/gossiped.. so much. I guess she will fall into disgrace?*


*(தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola = *literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)
to mean a disastrous or shocking situatio*n.* Does it refer to the situation?* Rather to the event, I suppose: something like a shock, no? English: STRUCK, but OK, one can also consider it as falling.*

*Yes, in English, it is lightning struck, but here thunder fell (or landed) Lightning arrester is known as idi thaangi = thunder holder/container*
*I guess, our words were based on cause and effect - Tamil man probably thought, why would a tree catch fire, without something (like ember) fall on it?*

*Just to be complete, here are the "other" words:*

*[+ pers.] FALL

வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan *to mean defeated, killed as in a war. *SNEUVELEN (separate word in Dutch)

எரிந்து விழு - erinthu vizhu = *literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down. *WHAT IS THE LINK WITH FALLING - burning down and thus making fall?
I guess vizhu here is motion/action associated with the anger; No making fall here.

விழுது *(n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree -* they SMOTHER other trees, like parasites, making them fall?
Again, not making others fall. Just the roots are falling from the tree to the ground.*
*விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம்* - *vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam* = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.

*விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு - vizunthu adithu koNdu = *literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.
*The above two: THREE IN ONE? Running for one's life does not imply falling, but it may happen of course... How do you link the three in both cases?
Like I said, we are full of figurative speech. In all these, the falling refers to something intense

துண்டூ விழுந்தது - thundu vizhunthathu = *Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or *running short in budget,.* BECAUSE YOU LOST YOUR PURSE, not literally but figuratively?
*= gap in budget; Again figurative - when you try to stitch a dress, there is a small piece missing to complete it. Now, I see English may have it to - budget shortfall.


காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = *literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to *beg and plead.


விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka* = fall fall laugh = roughly *rolling laugh, falling with laughter?

விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi* = fall fall study = to study hard ,* CRAMMING, falling due to exhaustion?

விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram* = fall, fall, serve = falling all over (LIKE BOWING?)

*In all the above, விழுந்து விழுந்து refers to the intensity. The fall here is part of the cause (action) and not the effect

விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu* = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed
and in human context, the crack in a relationship. -- something like *HAPPEN SUDDENLY*? 

*A crack can form slowly as well. Here விழுந்தது refers to the formation. 

I just remembered,
For shadow being cast, we say நிழல் விழுந்தது - shadow fell/formed*

*By extension, படத்தில் நல்லா விழுந்திருக்கு - padathil nallaa vizhunthirukku - fell/cast in picture/photo well = Your picture/photo/x-ray etc has come out of well*


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## ThomasK

[-/+ pers.] refer to the nature of the subject: is it a person (+) or a thing (-)? I fall (+) but the rain falls (-)...

I think we could begin to compose a book consisting of the views on falling in various languages, but starting with Tamil! ;-)

I add red or TEXT in your green text)...


kaverison said:


> *Before we start, I have a question: **Can you please explain what** [-pers.] **mean? Is it a BB code?*
> 
> 
> Sorry for the late reply. Agreed. Sorry I got carried away with my "own discovery" of the words that I didn't realize, existed. But the fall in the bottom portion are not literal falling. Like I said, Tamil is very dramatic with expressions. For e.g., *விழுந்து விழுந்து* is not fall , fall, but refers to how one would work up a sweat in doing something - to show how much attention/intensity is given to the action. Not literal fall to the ground. If this did not convey the meaning I intended, it is my own limitation in translating it.
> 
> That said, let me focus on the words related to the topic.
> 
> *[-pers.] HAPPEN
> 
> ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - oottu vizhunthathu = *Literally, "Vote fell" or *votes cast. SO were CAUSEd TO FALL?
> 
> பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu *= *Lottery (ticket) that won prize / the FALLEN TICKETt?
> Not the fallen but the winning (falling here probably refers to imagery of something falling in a slot)
> 
> காதில் விழுந்தது - kaathil vizhnthathu - *literally *fell in ear = something (I) heard (like conspicuous, something striking)*
> *This means more like hearsay. I think the "words" fell in the ear (in English too - f**all on deaf ears) BUT NOT PAINFUL then? Could you give a sentence (in some context)? *
> 
> *(அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu *= fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize. *PLEASE PUT in a sentence...*
> 
> *here is an usage of this to mean "Instead of her  falling into the word of our people (society) and dying a slow death, this is way better"
> roughly to mean, she will die of shame being criticized/ridiculed/gossiped.. so much. I guess **she will fall into disgrace? BUT THE MAIN THING IS People making fall/ "THROWING"/ SPREADING  THE RUMOURS OVER HER,?*
> 
> 
> *(தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola = *literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)
> to mean a disastrous or shocking situatio*n.* Does it refer to the situation?* Rather to the event, I suppose: something like a shock, no? English: STRUCK, but OK, one can also consider it as falling. *
> 
> *Yes, in English, it is lightning struck, but here thunder fell (or landed) Lightning arrester is known as idi thaangi = thunder holder/container*
> *I guess, our words were based on cause and effect - Tamil man probably thought, why would a tree catch fire, without something (like ember) fall on it?*
> 
> *Just to be complete, here are the "other" words:*
> 
> *[+ pers.] FALL
> 
> வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan *to mean defeated, killed as in a war. *SNEUVELEN (separate word in Dutch)
> 
> எரிந்து விழு - erinthu vizhu = *literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down. *WHAT IS THE LINK WITH FALLING - burning down and thus making fall?
> I guess vizhu here is motion/action associated with the anger; No making fall here.
> 
> விழுது *(n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree -* they SMOTHER other trees, like parasites, making them fall?
> Again, not making others fall. Just the roots are falling from the tree to the ground.*
> *விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம்* - *vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam* = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.
> 
> *விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு - vizunthu adithu koNdu = *literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.
> *The above two: THREE IN ONE? Running for one's life does not imply falling, but it may happen of course... How do you link the three in both cases?
> Like I said, we are full of figurative speech. In all these, the falling refers to something intense
> 
> துண்டூ விழுந்தது - thundu vizhunthathu = *Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or *running short in budget,.* BECAUSE YOU LOST YOUR PURSE, not literally but figuratively?
> *= gap in budget; Again figurative - when you try to stitch a dress, there is a small piece missing to complete it. Now, I see English may have it to - budget shortfall. Very interesting note, this link with English. It makes one wonder why one uses 'fall' in this case...
> @sound shift might know...
> 
> 
> காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = *literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to *beg and plead.
> 
> விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka* = fall fall laugh = roughly *rolling laugh, falling with laughter?
> 
> விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi* = fall fall study = to study hard ,* CRAMMING, falling due to exhaustion?
> 
> விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram* = fall, fall, serve = falling all over (LIKE BOWING?)
> 
> *In all the above, விழுந்து விழுந்து refers to the intensity. The fall here is part of the cause (action) and not the effect
> 
> விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu* = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed
> and in human context, the crack in a relationship. -- something like *HAPPEN SUDDENLY*?
> 
> *A crack can form slowly as well. Here விழுந்தது refers to **the formation. So again to the cause, whereas when I hear about the crack, I am mainly thinking of the result or perhaps, perhaps, the process, but not the cause... *
> 
> *I just remembered,
> For shadow being cast, we say நிழல் விழுந்தது - s**hadow fell/formed (here again I think of the result of falling, but you seem to think of the arising, the formation, i.e., the cause... *
> 
> *By extension, படத்தில் நல்லா விழுந்திருக்கு - padathil nallaa vizhunthirukku - fell/cast in picture/photo well = Your picture/photo/x-ray etc has come out of well*


I hope you do not mind my insisting. But it would be very special if there were a difference as for the focus (cause vs effect)!!!


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## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> [-/+ pers.] refer to the nature of the subject: is it a person (+) or a thing (-)? I fall (+) but the rain falls (-)...
> 
> I think we could begin to compose a book consisting of the views on falling in various languages, but starting with Tamil! ;-)



I agree. Thanks for starting the thread and stimulating questions. I fell for it and now as things fall in place, I have fallen in love with it .

A book indeed. Who'd have thought? I guess "fall" is one of the primitive action, many words seem to have come from it. Or the early (Tamil) man must have fallen so many times off the language bicycle and learned! Look forward to your comments.


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## kaverison

> I hope you do not mind my insisting. But it would be very special if there were a difference as for the focus (cause vs effect)!!!


Not at all. Those are very intriguing questions. I'm learning a lot in the process. I see how different people thought, based just on these words. So far, I see Tamil has the following meanings to fall: fall, cast, 
form,  heard, giving importance/intensity to (probably from the way we prostrated to show respect). Thank you for being persistent. Let me regroup my thoughts and research and get back here.


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## ThomasK

Looking forward! 

Just one note: falling and prosternation: I first thought of bowing, which is the most common kin of respect I can think of. Falling was not really a synonym, but I realized that there is an old expression ""te knie vallen" [fall to the knee] which is of course an expression of  respect. Making oneself small is the way to show respect. But again, we would not associate falling as such with respect. Is maybe this fall part of an expression in Tamil?


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## kaverison

ThomasK said:


> Looking forward!
> 
> Just one note: falling and prosternation: I first thought of bowing, which is the most common kin of respect I can think of. Falling was not really a synonym, but I realized that there is an old expression ""te knie vallen" [fall to the knee] which is of course an expression of  respect. Making oneself small is the way to show respect. But again, we would not associate falling as such with respect. Is maybe this fall part of an expression in Tamil?


@ThomasK, I am back. Sorry for the long break there. My other languages (computer kind) kept me busy. I hope to catch up here, this weekend.

As for the prostration, yes there several postures of prostration, the ultimate one being falling flat on the face, showing utmost reverence. I have seen a video of Tibetan monks falling and getting up, while circumambulating the path around a temple. All these, of course are Indian and Hindu practices as well and Tamil country was not isolated.

So, going back to my original explanation about விழுதல் = falling to mean extra effort /sincerity would suddenly be more clear if we can imagine a monk circumambulating around a temple, falling and getting up all along.

Below video shows a circumambulation around Mt. Kailash, a sacred peak in the Himalayas. More than the respect, I also see how much importance they give it. The efforts in this would mean better results in their prayers!





And I see both prostration and circumambulation are not unique to us either.
Circumambulation | Encyclopedia.com
Prostration - Wikipedia

This may explain the "falling, falling" to mean the extra effort/attention I mentioned in my original list of words. Will get back this weekend with the leftover details about Fall = to happen.


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## Encolpius

*Hungarian *
to happen - történik/megtörténik
or you can say: megesik [from esik - to fall]


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## ThomasK

Sardokan1.0 said:


> But the synonymous "Falare" is more flexible, Falare means "to descend, to go down" (go down the stairs, get out of the car etc.etc.), but it's used as synonymous of "to fall" (notice how Falare - Fall  sound similar!). Indeed in the last phrase the verb can be translated as "descended, fallen, or also happened" if we stretch its meaning.


@Sardokan1.0  Could you give me one sentence illustrating that use?


sound shift said:


> In the nineteenth century, "fall" could mean "happen" in British English: how did that fall (WR thread).


 Pleased to hear about that!


----------

