# if (whether) / if (conditional)



## ThomasK

I have recently noticed how difficult it seems to be for non-native speakers of Dutch to distinguish between
- *the conditional if in English* (_if you do that, then I will _...: that would be *als or indien in Dutch*) and 
- the *if introducing* (suggest a more adequate word here please) *indirect questions* (_I wonder if you are coming,_ which can only be translated by *of in Dutch, ob in German)*

Of course it is simple in English as the latter _if_ can be replaced by _whether_. But there is certain some semantic similarity between both uses, which explains why it is the same *si* in French - or is there a synonym for one of both or for both ? 

How about in your language ? 

And would you have simple tricks to help (French) learners ? I think place shows something: you cannot move an indirect question to the front of the sentence, I think. But I would welcome other suggestions !


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## Mahaodeh

In Arabic you actually have three:

The conditional _itha_ إذا = if you do that, then I will...etc. إذا فعلت كذا فسأفعل كذا which is used exactly like the the conditional if.

The "wishing" _law_ لو = if you had done that, then I would have ...etc. لو فعلت كذا لفعلت كذا, which is used for things that did not happen in the past but you are hypothetically assuming they did. It's also used as a polite or indirect way of asking someone to do something: لو جئت فزرتنا = if you would only come to visit us (meaning "I wish you would visit us" and implying "please visit us").

There is also _in_ إن = it can be used interchangablly with itha, but also can be used for your example of inderect questions: I wonder if you are coming. أتسائل إن كنت ستحضر


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## User1001

ThomasK said:


> the *if introducing* (suggest a more adequate word here please) *indirect questions* (_I wonder if you are coming,_ which can only be translated by *of in Dutch, ob in German)*



It's basically used for a question that can be answered with a definite _yes_ or _no_ answer, so yes-no-if-statement?


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## ThomasK

OK, tspier, but that is also implied by an if clause, that is part of the problem... 

In Arabic it must then be easier to distinguish between the two. But my learners do not speak Arabic ! ;-)


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## jazyk

Portuguese has only one word: _se_.


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## ThomasK

I suppose it is the case in most Romanic languages... The problem is, however, that there is a difference in German and Dutch, though I use the same word in my own dialect as well. 

The other point is how to help learners make the distinction. In principle the indirect question is an object in most cases, or at least a complement, an if clause is an adverbial...


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## kitenok

Russian does make a distinction between _whether_ (*ли*, placed after the key word in a binary indirect question) and conditional _if _(*если*, placed before the clause as in English)_. _
Interestingly enough, I have known several native speakers of Russian living in the US who regularly ignore this distinction; they use a *если* clause in either case. I haven't been to Russia for a long time, so I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the distinction has broken down there also. (Comments or corrections from native speakers in Russia are welcome - I am neither a native speaker, nor in Russia). 

When I was teaching introductory Russian, I was always very careful to teach *ли* first, make sure it was natural for my students in indirect questions, and wait some time before teaching them conditional with *если*. I learned that if you give them если (if) first, or even at the same time as ли (whether), then they will just use если for everything.


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## ThomasK

Very interesting consideration, Kitenok. But I think the conditional meaning is the 'natural' one, suggesting a choice (implied in both) between two options (yes or no, the case or not), and that the other one is basically a grammatical extra-distinction, not conveying a very specific meaning. 

I think it is a hard option not to mention the conditional if before the other because I think it is more frequent and important from a communicational (?) point of view and because the conditional meaning is fundamental. Or am I wrong ? Basically I wonder why the distinction is strictly speaking necessary or useful, in fact !


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## mcibor

In Polish, after a long thought I must say that there are three, similar to Mahaodeh

1. The first conditional *jeśli* - _if you do that, then I will _- *Jeśli* to zrobisz, to ja (also Polish MS Excel uses this word), and it's the official translation of if. But *jeśli* is seldom used in sentences like
2. The "wishing" law *gdy* - _if you had done that, then I would have_ - *Gdy*byś to zrobił, to ja
3. Indirect question *czy* - _I wonder if you are coming_ - Zastanawiam się, *czy* przyjdzieszI'm not sure how is it exactly in French, but I would just tell them, that when creating conditionals use *als* or *indien* (with telling what the difference between these two words is) and use *of* for indirect questions like:
I think if...
I wonder if...
Do you know if...

But truly, for Polish people this is not a problem


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## ThomasK

Just one small question, Mcibor: do the words seem to be related phonetically ? 

Thanks for the hint. But the number of main clauses introducing indirect questins is way bigger, does not even hint remotely (well...) at a question. You see ?


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## mcibor

I wouldn't say the are related in any way.
jeśli is "if condition" if... then
gdy is more a time clause - when sth...
czy is the question forming element

They aren't linked phonetically either.


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## Outsider

jazyk said:


> Portuguese has only one word: _se_.


Thomas' sentence "I wonder if you are coming" would most often be said _Será *que* você vem?_, though perhaps this should be regarded as an idiom.

It is true that _se_ can mean both "if" and "whether" (and indeed other things).


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## ThomasK

mcibor said:


> czy is the question forming element.
> They aren't linked phonetically either.


 
Thanks. So the -y has no specific meaning, I gather, but then there is some kind of lexical element referring to questions then. Does it also turn up in 'I do not know ...', where there is only a very indirect link with a question ? (I think it is used in Esperanto as well: _ci_ or something).  

But not in conditional clauses, I think.


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## mcibor

the "czy" element can come up in all questions than in English are created by inversion:

She is nice -> Is she nice? -> Czy ona jest miła? 
You smoke -> Do you smoke? -> Czy palisz?

And mostly when you pointed out:
I don't know ... - nie wiem czy...

but not in 
I don't know that  which is no question.


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks. But do I read 'mostly' ??? (I might ask one of my European pupils in Brussels about more information, but feel free to answer)...


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## mcibor

Mostly, meaning not always. There are constructions that Polish wouldn't use word _czy_

"I don't know that" will be translated as "Nie wiem tego" or "Nie znam tego"

hmm, I just encountered a strange thing...
In the present tense 
_I don't know that he_ will translate to _Nie wiem, *czy* on_
but in the past tense it would be
_I didn't know that he - Nie wiedziałem, że on
_However if you use construction if...or it translates to
_I don't know if he did it or not - Nie wiem, czy to zrobił, czy nie_

Just because of that I wrote mostly


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## Cosol

ThomasK said:


> I think it is used in Esperanto as well: _ci_ or something.


Yes, it uses _ĉu_, which is also used for direct questions, in fact Esperanto conlanger was Polish.


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## Encolpius

*magyar*

If you do that.. = *ha*
I wonder if you are coming... = *hogy, hogy vajon, vajon*


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

*«Εάν και εφόσον» [e'an ce e'foson]* (fossilized expression) < Classical *«ἐάν καὶ ἐφ' ὅσον» ĕān kæ ĕpʰ' hósŏn* --> _if and inasmuch as_

Conj. *«ἐάν» ĕān* < formed by *crasis* of conjunction *«εἰ» ei* (Doric *«αἰ» æ*, Arcado-Cypriot *«ἤ» ḗ*)  --> _if, whether_ (introduces optative, with obscure etymology) with modal particle *«ἄν» án* --> _used with verbs for emphasis, or to indicate the action is limited or defined by conditions_ (introduces subjunctive, with obscure etymology) 

*«Ἐφ' ὅσον» ĕpʰ' hósŏn* < prefix and preposition *«ἔπὶ» ĕpì* --> _upon, on, over_ (PIE *h₁epi, _near, at, against_) + neuter form of relative pronoun & indirect interrogative adj. «ὅσος/ὅσσος, -η, -ον» hósŏs & hóssŏs (masc.), hósē (fem.), hósŏn (neut.) --> _as much as, as great as_ (PIE *yós, *yā, *yód (masc. fem. neut.) --> _who, which, that_)


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## arielipi

In hebrew we have something similar to arabic, but we also have one word that acts exactly like if in english.


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## Saluton

kitenok said:


> I haven't been to Russia for a long time, so I'm not sure to what extent, if any, the distinction has broken down there also.


It hasn't at all.
I'd like to add that the very word *если* ('yesli', _if_) originated as an amalgamation: *есть + ли* ('yest' + 'li', _is + whether_). Even the word *или* ('ili', _or_) is an amalgamation, too: *и + ли* (_and + whether_).
Also, *ли* ('li', _whether_) is mostly used in 'whether'-clauses, rather than in questions. Using it in a question makes it sound rather formal or even rhetorical.


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## Teekanne

Eğer, or obsolete: şayet ==> conditional
-ıp ... -madığı ==> whether or not, if

Eğer gelirsen ben de gelirim. (If you com, I'll come too.)
Onun gidip gelmediğini bilmiyorum. (I don't know whether he/she went.)


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## ger4

German:

"ob" = "if" (introducing a subordinate clause): "Ich frage mich, ob..." = "I wonder if..."
"wenn" = "if" (conditional): "Wenn es regnet,..." = "If it rains..."
"wenn" = "when", "whenever": "Wenn es regnet, ..." = "When(ever) it rains..."

That's why it takes us a while to understand the English "if-concept"...

"Ob" can also be used to introduce an indirect question expecting a "yes" or "no" answer (a bit similar to Polish "czy")


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