# Until death do us apart



## Zveenie

Hi. I'm new here, and I really want to know the latin meaning of this phrase. I noticed it was discussed in the English-Latin forum, but I could not find the answers I was looking for.

If someone here could help me with this, I would be really grateful.


Best regards.


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## zouzounaki

Donec mors nos separaverit (escribe en google esta frase y te saldra el liber celebrandi matrimonium)

I think it is the best one.


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## Zveenie

Thank you so much! Have been thinking about this for a while now, until I found this page yesterday. 

Cheers!


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## mateo19

Hello everyone!

Last night a friend of mine asked me how to say "Until Death Do Us Part" and I really started thinking about it.
I came up with this:

USQUE AD MORTEM NOS SEPARANDUM.

I based this on a quote that I saw which helped me figure out the construction: usque ad mortem bibendum.  The general idea would be "Let's drink until death", right?  My grand doubt is that I don't understand very well how the "-ndum" works.  It's an accusative gerund subordinated by the preposition ad, right?  I'd appreciate any clarifications or corrections of any kind! I'd also love for anyone to propose a different translation of it to see some variety.
Vobis ago gratias!


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## mateo19

In another post in the All Languages forum, we came up with:

"Dum nos disiungat mors".

If my aforementioned translation is indeed grammatical, what would the differences be between the two?  (The usque one versus the dum one.)  As always, thank you!


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## mplsray

mateo19 said:


> In another post in the All Languages forum, we came up with:
> 
> "Dum nos disiungat mors".
> 
> If my aforementioned translation is indeed grammatical, what would the differences be between the two? (The usque one versus the dum one.) As always, thank you!


 
A friend of mine who is a deacon in the Anglican Church told me that "till death us do part" appears in the Book of Common Prayer, so I went looking in a 1560 Latin online version of the book here.

In the Solemnization of Matrimony, when the husband takes the wife, the Latin version contains: "donec mors nos separaverit."

When the wife takes the husband, the Latin version contains: "donec mors nos separavit."

Compare the Latin version above to the English version given here.


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## brian

mateo19 said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> Last night a friend of mine asked me how to say "Until Death Do Us Part" and I really started thinking about it.
> I came up with this:
> 
> USQUE AD MORTEM NOS SEPARANDUM.
> 
> I based this on a quote that I saw which helped me figure out the construction: usque ad mortem bibendum.  The general idea would be "Let's drink until death", right?  My grand doubt is that I don't understand very well how the "-ndum" works.  It's an accusative gerund subordinated by the preposition ad, right?  I'd appreciate any clarifications or corrections of any kind! I'd also love for anyone to propose a different translation of it to see some variety.
> Vobis ago gratias!


Hi there,

_Usque + ad_ means "all the way up to," "right on to," "without stop to," etc.  Then by comparing your sentence with the one containing "bibendum," you see that it's one of those passive periphrastic constructions meaning, literally, "It must be drunk (by us) all the way up to (our) death." Hence, more freely:

_Let's drink until death!_ (not "Let's have a drink _to_ death, i.e. in the spirit of death or as a toast to death")

Similarly, your sentence would mean "We must be separated all the way up to (our) death," or something, and "nos" would probably have to be "nobis."  In any case, "separandum" is not the verb you want if you want that particular construction.

On another note, it may help to modernize the English a bit to see exactly what words are doing what:

_Until death do us part = Until death do(th) part us = Until death does part us = Until death parts us._

Hence, "death" is the subject of the verb "to part," and "us" is the object.  In your sentence, you took "death" as the object of "usque."  Now look at the Latin given above:

_Donec mors nos separavit._

"Mors"/"Death" is the subject of the verb "separare"/"to part," and "nos"/"us" is the object.  Seems to work perfectly!

Hope it helps. 


brian


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## mplsray

brian8733 said:


> On another note, it may help to modernize the English a bit to see exactly what words are doing what:
> 
> _Until death do us part = Until death do(th) part us = Until death does part us = Until death parts us._
> 
> Hence, "death" is the subject of the verb "to part," and "us" is the object. In your sentence, you took "death" as the object of "usque." Now look at the Latin given above:
> 
> _Donec mors nos separavit._
> 
> "Mors"/"Death" is the subject of the verb "separare"/"to part," and "nos"/"us" is the object. Seems to work perfectly!
> 
> Hope it helps.
> 
> 
> brian


 
I'd like to make a point that at the time of the 1560 Latin version of the Book of Common Prayer, the verb used in English was _depart_--"till death us depart"--which had the meaning "separate." I have read that the reason _depart_ was put into the subjunctive there was because it represented an example of a rule which required the subjunctive at the time, but in which the subjunctive is not permitted in modern English--with the exception of the fixed phrase which we have been discussing. (I did a search of the Internet this evening in an effort to find references to that rule, but was unsuccessful. However, if the examples in Latin which I gave previously are in the subjunctive, that particular rule would appear to be effect in Latin as well.)

In any case, "do part" was substituted in the Book of Common Prayer in 1662 as a result of the Savoy Conference of 1661. It retained the subjunctive form (otherwise, it would have been changed to _do*es* part_.)

For the reference to the Savoy Conference, see the entry for _depart_ in the online _Century Dictionary._


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## mplsray

mplsray said:


> I'd like to make a point that at the time of the 1560 Latin version of the Book of Common Prayer, the verb used in English was _depart_--"till death us depart"--which had the meaning "separate." I have read that the reason _depart_ was put into the subjunctive there was because it represented an example of a rule which required the subjunctive at the time, but in which the subjunctive is not permitted in modern English--with the exception of the fixed phrase which we have been discussing. (I did a search of the Internet this evening in an effort to find references to that rule, but was unsuccessful. However, if the examples in Latin which I gave previously are in the subjunctive, that particular rule would appear to be effect in Latin as well.)
> 
> In any case, "do part" was substituted in the Book of Common Prayer in 1662 as a result of the Savoy Conference of 1661. It retained the subjunctive form (otherwise, it would have been changed to _do*es* part_.)
> 
> For the reference to the Savoy Conference, see the entry for _depart_ in the online _Century Dictionary._


 
I found a reference to the English rule in play here. I had probably read it in the Random House Mavens' Word of the Day, which is no longer available--even the archive appears to be nonfunctioning. But an article here quotes from what James E. Clapp had said on the Mavens site, which was this: 

"The reason that the verb was _depart_ rather than the third person singular indicative _departeth _(which today would be _departs_) is that in those days it was customary to use the subjunctive mood in subordinate clauses describing action to take place in the indefinite future."


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## mateo19

Hello Brian and mplsray!

Thank you very much for your explanations!  Now I understand why it's better to use "donec" and not "usque"  in our nice little phrase.  I just have a low quality Latin dictionary that doesn't elaborate upon the differences between two similar entries.
  On another note, I've really enjoyed this topic about the subjunctive in English.  I've been inspired to investigate how the English verb evolved over time. . . Modern English has such poor morphology compared to earlier versions of it.

Take care, everyone!  Matthew


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## wonderment

mplsray said:


> A friend of mine who is a deacon in the Anglican Church told me that "till death us do part" appears in the Book of Common Prayer, so I went looking in a 1560 Latin online version of the book here.
> 
> In the Solemnization of Matrimony, when the husband takes the wife, the Latin version contains: "donec mors nos separaverit."
> 
> When the wife takes the husband, the Latin version contains: "donec mors nos separavit."
> 
> Compare the Latin version above to the English version given here.



'Separavit' is a syncopated or contracted form of 'separaverit' (syncopation is not unusual with Latin verbs). In form it could be either the future perfect indicative or the perfect subjunctive. In context, it is the indicative: "...until death will have separated us." 'Donec' could also take the subjunctive (in a subordinate clause describing action to take place in the indefinite future), but the sequence of tenses doesn't allow for it here.


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## Marg-Strati

I am also new, today, in fact.  My husband of 35 years died last year, a combat vietnam vet, who had gotten cancer 3 X from Agent Orange.  He also fell into a booby trap set by the North Vietnamese, a large pit with sharpened bamboo sticks, and the fit was filled with diseased blood, human and animal feces and, the ever-present Agent Orange.  This caused him to get Hepatitis B, that progressed to chronic-persistent Hep B with cirrhosis (scarring) of the liver.  As opposed to the Vietnam War as I was, he did his duty instead of fleeing, and I first met him when I was 14, and then again at 16, and then finally in 1974, and we were together since.  We have one living daughter who was 5 months pregnant with his only granddaughter when he died.  He was and still is my life.  We grew up together, basically - spending our lives together from the age of 24 until 57(he died right after he turned 60, but looked like he was about 45 - a young baby-face, Greek (Southern)-American) (and I am an Irish-Northern Greek-American).  Sorry for length of this.  It does relate to the latin words for "until death parts our souls", rather than "until death do us part", which is part of the Matrimonial Liturgy.  Also, "mea culpa" I think I have found, means, "it is my fault".  Or, is it "forgive me"?
Can anyone help with these two: until death does part our souls; and forgive me?
Thanks, guys!


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## Cagey

Please note that this is a response to POST #12.  The question is _slightly different from the title sentence_. 



Marg-Strati said:


> I am also new, today, in fact.  My husband of 35 years died last year, a combat vietnam vet, who had gotten cancer 3 X from Agent Orange.
> 
> It does relate to the latin words for "until death parts our souls", rather than "until death do us part", which is part of the Matrimonial Liturgy.
> 
> Can anyone help with these two: until death does part our souls; and *forgive me?
> Thanks, guys!



You could use the following variation on the original sentence:
_donec mors animas nostras separaverit. _ literally: "until death will have separated our souls."​
I hope that others will comment or make suggestions, to be sure that this is the best version for such an important purpose.

(I am sorry for your loss.)

*_forgive me_:  This second question has been moved to this thread.


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## Erutuon

wonderment said:


> 'Separavit' is a syncopated or contracted form of 'separaverit' (syncopation is not unusual with Latin verbs).



But the syncopation of _separaverit_ would be _separa*r*it_ rather than _sepera*v*it_, because it's the _v_ that is lost, never an _r_.


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## wonderment

Erutuon said:


> But the syncopation of _separaverit_ would be _separa*r*it_ rather than _separa*v*it_, because it's the _v_ that is lost, never an _r_.



Uuu, you're right. In that case, _separavit_ must be a typo for _separaverit_ (or its syncopated form, _separarit_). In context (_Ego N. accipio te N... donec mors nos ______), the only other forms that could fit are _separet_ (present subjunctive: separates) and _separabit_ (future indicative: will separate). Thanks.


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## Marg-Strati

Thanks to everyone for all their help; I finally got the exact wording for: Untill death does part both our souls.  I had come up with a redundnt verb, and my misonception was fixed almost immediate.  Now, the sentiment is being engraved on my husban's gravestone, and I have had a stencil made for just the the very small words, as I plan on getting a tatoo (my first!) on my upper right thighe.  This is MY susiness, and not open to anyone to use my tatoo as a conversation piece!  As it is almost 4:30 AM here, and I have to get some sleep, if I can - my second and third wings have kept me gooinb, but this email, which would normally have taken 10 minutes to createanother sick rose group for my daughter.  thanking everyone again for their help: I hope that everyone can ignore any typos, as I keep finding gibberish on the page since my fingers and head want to sleep, now.  Again, thanks! Mararet


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