# AmE-speakers (use of a hyphen)



## Roymalika

I post a question here. Some BE speakers answer. Then I say I'd like to have some response from AmE-speakers too. 
I've observed that some native speakers use a hyphen between "AmE" and "speakers". May I know why? I've heard that we should use hyphen between a compound adjective (like, if it were American English (a compound adjective), then it would be "American-English speakers". (Hyphen used between the compound adjective)


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## owlman5

_*I*_ use the hyphen in _English-speakers_* to distinguish between English people who speak and people who speak English. I haven't noticed that many others follow that practice, but I don't give a hoot about that. The hyphen makes sense to me. _American-English speakers _is also clear.

As far as I can recall, I never needed this compound before I joined the forum and started rambling on about what English-speakers do.


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## london calling

I never hyphenate AE/American English speakers. I don't really class it as a compound adjective.


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## Egmont

london calling said:


> I never hyphenate AE/American English speakers. I don't really class it as a compound adjective.


This AE speaker agrees. However, I think this discussion proves that the rules for using a hyphen allow a bit of individual freedom - not in every situation, but in some of them.


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## london calling

Egmont said:


> This AE speaker agrees. However, I think this discussion proves that the rules for using a hyphen allow a bit of individual freedom - not in every situation, but in some of them.


For sure. On this side of the pond we generally use hyphens more than you do. 😊


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## Roymalika

owlman5 said:


> _*I*_ use the hyphen in _English-speakers_* to distinguish between English people who speak and people who speak English


Which meaning you use "English-speakers" for and which meaning you use "English speakers" for?


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## owlman5

I use _English-speakers _frequently in this forum in my references to anybody who speaks English. I really haven't had any need to use _English speakers _before.


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## Roymalika

owlman5 said:


> I use _English-speakers _in references to anybody who speaks English. I really haven't had any need to use _English speakers _before.


But you also talked about the English people who speak. What did you want to say?


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## owlman5

Here is one admittedly contrived example: _Many people speak English in England and Ireland._ _English speakers pronounce some words differently than Irish speakers do._


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## Myridon

owlman5 said:


> I use _English-speakers _frequently in this forum in my references to anybody who speaks English. I really haven't had any need to use _English speakers _before.


I really can't remember seeing that. Perhaps I just wasn't paying attention.


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## Edinburgher

owlman5 said:


> _*I*_ use the hyphen in _English-speakers_* to distinguish between English people who speak and people who speak English.


  


> I haven't noticed that many others follow that practice, but I don't *give a hoot* about that.


 Owl, hoot. Priceless!


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## owlman5

Myridon said:


> I really can't remember seeing that. Perhaps I just wasn't paying attention.


That is certainly understandable. My use of _English-speakers _doesn't seem like the most interesting thing in the world.


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## Roymalika

london calling said:


> I never hyphenate AE/American English speakers. I don't really class it as a compound adjective.



When we use an adjective before a noun, we don't use a hyphen. For example, a _yellow balloon_, a _beautiful flower_, a _big book_ etc etc.
I've never seen _yellow-balloon_, _beautiful-flower_, _big-book_. It sounds wrong.
Then why do people use hyphen between "English" and "speakers" (where "English" is an adjective, "speakers" is a noun)? Do you think they are wrong?


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> why do people use hyphen between "English" and "speakers" (where "English" is an adjective, "speakers" is a noun



English people who speak/can talk = English speakers. It doesn't matter what language they speak, they _are _English, and they can talk. Here 'English' is an adjective.

People who speak (the language called) English (a _noun _here) = English-speakers. They may not _be_ English, but they _speak _English. 



Personally I don't hyphenate the way Owlman5 does, but that is irrelevant.


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## Myridon

heypresto said:


> English people who speak/can talk = English speakers. It doesn't matter what language they speak, they _are _English, and they can talk. Here 'English' is an adjective.
> 
> People who speak (the language called) English (a _noun _here) = English-speakers. They may not _be_ English, but they _speak _English.


I can't imagine using the first one.  I never talk about mute British people so I rarely need to mention the other kind specifically.  Therefore, the non-hyphenated one can be used freely to mean the hyphenated one as there's no danger of confusion.


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## sdgraham

Roymalika said:


> When we use an adjective before a noun, we don't use a hyphen. For example, a _yellow balloon_, a _beautiful flower_, a _big book_ etc etc.
> I've never seen _yellow-balloon_, _beautiful-flower_, _big-book_. It sounds wrong.
> Then why do people use hyphen between "English" and "speakers" (where "English" is an adjective, "speakers" is a noun)? Do you think they are wrong?


You seem to continue an erroneous assumption that _all_ English speakers hyphenate that expression.  
From the above good information, which I join, you can see that they do not.
A more precise question would be, "Why do _some_ persons hyphenate "English speakers?"
Unfortunately the answer is, as I see it, is "because they feel like it."


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> English people who speak/can talk = English speakers. It doesn't matter what language they speak, they _are _English, and they can talk. Here 'English' is an adjective.
> 
> People who speak (the language called) English (a _noun _here) = English-speakers. They may not _be_ English, but they _speak _English.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I don't hyphenate the way Owlman5 does, but that is irrelevant.


The native speakers who write "English-speakers" or "AmE-speakers", they should also write "old-man", "big-book", "beautiful-flower"..... etc. 

English is very strange


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## london calling

Most of us don't make the distinction that owlman5 makes, so that isn't an issue. 

We're flogging a dead horse again...


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> The native speakers who write "English-speakers" or "AmE-speakers", they should also write "old-man", "big-book", "beautiful-flower"..... etc.


No, they shouldn't, and wouldn't.

I was merely trying to explain and expand upon what I believe owlman5 had said about _his _usage _in this forum_, in answer to your question in post #13.


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## Şafak

Roymalika said:


> The native speakers who write "English-speakers" or "AmE-speakers", they should also write "old-man", "big-book", "beautiful-flower"..... etc.
> 
> English is very strange



No, you're wrong. The reason for hyphenating "English-speakers" is because "English" is a noun. Hence, you can't really compare "English-speakers" and "big book". 

As for English punctuation, I must admit that *there are no strict rules. *


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## Roymalika

london calling said:


> I never hyphenate AE/American English speakers. I don't really class it as a compound adjective.


Why is not "American English" a compound adjective here, please?



Jennifer Weiss said:


> The reason for hyphenating "English-speakers" is because "English" is a noun


How is it a noun? Can a noun modify a noun? I've never heard that. What I've heard is that only adjectives modify a noun.


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## Şafak

Roymalika said:


> How is it a noun? Can a noun modify a noun? I've never heard that. What I've heard is that only adjectives modify a noun.



Air-crew? As Lexico says _"... The tendency is now to write them _(such words) _as either one word or two separate words. However, the most important thing to note is that you should choose one style and stick to it within a piece of writing. Don’t refer to a playgroup in one paragraph and a play-group in another."_

Also: _"A compound noun is one consisting of *two component nouns*."_

What I wanted to draw your attention to was that you couldn't compare "English-speakers" and "big book" because the phrases consist of different parts of speech "noun + noun" and "adjective + noun". I can't think of any hyphenated word whose structure is "adjective + noun". In my world, they just don't exist.


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## Şafak

Please note I'm not saying that you have to always hyphenate such words. I can think of dozens of words like "a court material" whose structure is "noun + noun". I just wanted to point out your incorrect comparison.


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> Can a noun modify a noun?


Yes. Nouns can act like adjectives. 

Car door.
Table leg.
Desk lamp.
Coffee cup.
And many many more . . .

nouns as adjectives


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## boozer

owlman5 said:


> _*I*_ use the hyphen in _English-speakers_* to distinguish between English people who speak and people who speak English.


I find this quite sensible and agree 100%. 

Of course, in context it is all clear and we do not really need the hyphen to understand the actual intention, but still - your advice is very logical.


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> Why is not "American English" a compound adjective here, please?


 Because _English_ is a noun here.  The term "an American English speaker", in its usual context, means "a speaker of American English", i.e. a person who speaks AE.


> Can a noun modify a noun? I've never heard that. What I've heard is that only adjectives modify a noun.


 Nouns can be used in an adjectival role, to modify another noun.  That means they behave like adjectives, but it doesn't mean they are adjectives. See the examples in #24. I find it incredible that you have not come across these.

One problem with terms like "English speaker" is that they are ambiguous, and it is in such circumstances that owlman's hyphenation approach can help to resolve the ambiguity.  It can mean a person who *speaks* English, and then _English_ is a noun, or it can mean a speaker (for example at a conference) who *is* English, and then _English_ is an adjective.


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## Roymalika

Edinburgher said:


> One problem with terms like "English speaker" is that they are ambiguous, and it is in such circumstances that owlman's hyphenation approach can help to resolve the ambiguity. It can mean a person who *speaks* English, and then _English_ is a noun, or it can mean a speaker (for example at a conference) who *is* English, and then _English_ is an adjective.


Do you mean in "English speaker" (meaning a person who speaks English), "English" is a noun that acts like an adjective?



Edinburgher said:


> Because _English_ is a noun here. The term "an American English speaker", in its usual context, means "a speaker of American English", i.e. a person who speaks AE.


The same here? i.e. in "American English speaker", "English" is a noun that acts like an adjective?


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> Do you mean in "English speaker" (meaning a person who speaks English), "English" is a noun that acts like an adjective?


No, it's a noun acting like a noun.   It is not like the examples in #24.


> The same here? i.e. in "American English speaker", "English" is a noun that acts like an adjective?


Yes and no.  Yes, it is the same here, namely it is not acting like an adjective.  It is a person who speaks American English.

This seems to be generally the case when the main noun (_speaker_) is derived from a verb (_to speak_).
A couple of other examples: _water carrier_ and _potato peeler_.  Here, _water_ and _peeler_ are not directly acting adjectivally either, although they add information about the main noun.
A water carrier is a person who (or device, such as a bucket, that) carries water, and a potato peeler is a person who, or tool that, peels potatoes.


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## Roymalika

Edinburgher said:


> No, it's a noun acting like a noun.  It is not like the examples in #24.


Ok.
How can I know whether a word preceding another word is acting like an adjective or a noun? And once I get to know that the first word is a noun, what role does it play in that two-word combination (if it doesn't act like an adjective)?


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## Edinburgher

Roymalika said:


> How can I know whether a word preceding another word is acting like an adjective or a noun? And once I get to know that the first word is a noun, what role does it play in that two-word combination (if it doesn't act like an adjective)?


I'm afraid the answer is "by using your loaf".  Context will usually tell you.


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## Roymalika

Duplicate threads merged. 
Cagey, moderator 

(Sample sentence)
AE-speakers pronounce the word XXX differently from the speakers of other varieties of English.

Some days ago, I noticed that a native BE speaker wrote "AE-speakers" with a hyphen. I wonder on what grammatical rule they did so. If I write "AE" in full, it becomes "American English-speakers". It sounds odd. To my knowledge, here "American English" is a compound adjective, and we use a hyphen between the two words, i.e. _American*-*English speakers. _So as per this rule, it should be:_ A-E speakers. _(Not _AE-speakers_)

May I ask for some explanation please?


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## kentix

I would never use a hyphen in either case.


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## DEHER

In American English, the trend is to use less and less hyphens. The simpler, the better!


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## lingobingo

Or the simpler the worse, depending on your point of view! The use of punctuation generally, but perhaps hyphens in particular, is certainly in decline, despite the concomitant risk of ambiguity. Just one example… does “a 4 foot high securiy fence” mean “a 4-foot-high security fence” or “a 4-foot high-security fence”?

But specifically in terms of “American English-speakers”, or AE-speakers, I would agree that the hyphen can safely be omitted without fear of ambiguity. However, I don’t believe this hyphenation would seem at all odd to most English speakers – or even English-speakers! It means speakers *of* American English, the hyphen indicating that same relationship.


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## kentix

I honestly can't imagine seeing it ever written that way in the U.S. I agree about the security fence question. That's a real adjective use. But I don't see American English speakers as the same. They are speakers of American English. It's not a fence of high security.


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## lingobingo

Yes, they’re different. And, as I said, you don’t need a hyphen in the OP example. If it’s not essential, by all means don’t use one (or even two). But dismissing hyphenation out of hand as though it serves no useful purpose is bonkers, in my view.


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## kentix

I'm saying it serves no useful purpose in that term in U.S. English. I have never seen it that way. It looks beyond strange to me.

It looks as strange as ice-cream, which looks beyond strange to me, also.


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## lingobingo

Ice cream doesn’t normally have a hyphen, as a noun. It could legitimately have one if use attributively (an ice-cream dessert), but I agree that it’s not necessary even then. My point is not that hyphens should be used whenever it’s possible or conventional, but that there are – and presumably always will be – certain uses where the omission of hyphens is problematic.


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## kentix

I have no disagreement there. In some contexts they are necessary and invaluable. I just don't think American English speakers is one of those examples (in AE).

(I've never seen ice cream hyphenated here in any context. I don't even consider the hyphen omitted. I look at it as it doesn't belong. )


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## lingobingo

Fine. Neither do I – even if I’d probably use one myself, simply out of habit!


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## natkretep

In the case of the OP example, I would not use the hyphen.

With many other words, we might be in a process of losing the hyphen. 'Ice cream' started off as 'iced cream', and it is natural enough when you move on to a noun+noun compound to insert the hyphen to indicate this: ice-cream. When we use it to modify a noun, some people might still want to insert the hyphen: ice-cream parlour.

In some other words you have the option of writing 'make up' (two words), 'make-up' (hyphenated) or 'makeup' (fused).

See also: Ice cream or ice-cream?


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## Roymalika

I see an important difference:

*American-English speakers *
-> The speakers who speak American English. They may be anywhere in the world. 

*American English-speakers *
-> English speakers from America (i.e. living in America). They may be speakers of British English, Indian English, etc. 

Is that right?


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## lingobingo

No. That may seem logical, but it’s not how it’s used. The hyphen needs to connect the agent of the action (in this case, the speaker) to whatever is being said.


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## Forero

Roymalika said:


> AE-speakers pronounce the word XXX differently from the speakers of other varieties of English.


I would call that use of a hyphen wrong.


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## elroy

_AE-speakers 
A-E-speakers 
American English-speakers 
American-English speakers 
American-English-speakers _

In American English, these are all *wrong*, plain and simple. 

The only correct versions in American English are:

_AE speakers 
American English speakers_ 

There are many words that are, or can be, hyphenated in British English that cannot be hyphenated in American English.  In addition to _ice-cream_, examples include _no-one_ and _co-operation_. 



DEHER said:


> In American English, the trend is to use less and less hyphens. The simpler, the better!


This is an inaccurate oversimplification.  But the broad topic of hyphenation in American English is beyond the scope of this thread.


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