# Un alto el fuego



## Misao

Queridos foreros,

No sé si estáis al corriente de la situación. Supongo que los foreros españoles sí lo están.

 ETA ha anunciado un alto el fuego PERMANENTE a partir de este viernes 

¿no es maravilloso? Por fin el terrorismo se acabará en España y tendremos paz, ¡qué bonito suena!... 

Solo quería compartirlo con todos vosotros y que aportéis vuestra visión del asunto.


Un abrazo enorme que os llegue a todos!


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## grumpus

Misao said:
			
		

> Queridos foreros,
> 
> No sé si estáis al corriente de la situación. Supongo que los foreros españoles sí lo están.
> 
> ETA ha anunciado un alto el fuego PERMANENTE a partir de este viernes
> 
> ¿no es maravilloso? Por fin el terrorismo se acabará en España y tendremos paz, ¡qué bonito suena!...
> 
> Solo quería compartirlo con todos vosotros y que aportéis vuestra visión del asunto.
> 
> 
> Un abrazo enorme que os llegue a todos!



Hola Misao,
yes, everyone should be happy about this situation.  Violence only leads to more violence.  The only exception I would take is that I would not let powerful interest (the State, mass media) define what terrorism is.  Eta = terrorist (sure).  But also Franco, (far more so) or more recently Aznar (in Iraq).  There are many forms of terrorism, State terrorism is by far the greatest (e.g., look at my country).

saludos,
Grumpus


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## tigger_uhuhu

Claro... por la mañana escuché en la radio la noticia y me sentí contento, hubo también una declaración de la vicepresidenta...
Yo creo que algo tan bueno debemos tomarlo concuidado... será que soy muy desconfiado...
Saludos y esperemos que sea realidad, sé que es un gran suceso.
Saludos 
Tigger


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## Bettie

Buenísima noticia!!! No tenía idea... es casi increíble!!!


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## Cintia&Martine

Buenas noches
Es una gran noticia (cruzamos todos los dedos)
Aunque me lleva a algunas reflexiones.
El terrorismo está destinado a infudir terror. Llevo ya más de dos décadas en España y aún a sabiendas que puede tocarle a cualquiera (aquí en Alicante ha habido varios atentados) la gente no se siente especialmente *Aterrorizada*, más bien harta, asqueada, no comprende... Terror no siente (puede que sea diferente en el País vasco o en Madrid). La gente siente pena y solidaridad con las víctimas pero insisto: terror no. Hace vida normal. Hasta me atrevería a decir que el 11M amplió todos estos sentimientos pero la gente respondió echándose a la calle como para decir: aquí estamos, no nos dais miedo, y en los centros de tranfusión sanguínea como para decir queríais nuestra sangre, aquí la teneís... para la vida. 
Con lo cual fuera del País vasco siempre nos preguntamos: ¿Qué quieren? ¿No se dan cuenta de que parecen de otra época? ¿No se dan cuenta de que hay democracia y que un pueblo decidido puede obtener mucho con lucha pacífica? ¿No se dan cuenta que no aterrorizan al pueblo? Esto se decía en las conversaciones sobre ETA.
*Es una gran noticia. Ya era hora. Enhorabuena*
Gracias a los familiares de las víctimas que en vez de encerrarse en su dolor de manera egoista declaran alto y fuerte que "pa ´lante" que nadie más sufra lo que han sufrido ellos. Gracias.
Hasta luego


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## belén

Quizá hoy empieza la paz.. 

Se me pone la carne de gallina de la emoción al pensar que este es un gran día para nuestro país..

Estoy feliz pero una parte de mi es escéptica, son demasiados años, demasiados muertos..como para ponerse a dar saltos de alegría...


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## Fernando

I am very sorry of playing the bitter role, but I am very sceptic:

1) There have been about ten ETA truces. Results: none. I can not see why this one should be different.

2) ETA has announced a permanent cease-fire. A for ever and ever renounce of violence? No Regret for the 1,000 killings? No Abandonment of weapons? No

2) ETA has one objective: Independence for Basque Country (including Navarre and, eventually, French Basque Country). Given that it has not announced no abandon of these objectives they will turn to violence when their objective are not fulfilled. 

3) If they get no objectives, the news are great. Excellent news. The problem to me isthey are going to get some of their demands because they have some sort of implicit or explicit agreement with the government. If they get political objectives or an extensive reducement of jail penalties the news are awful to me. 1,000 people would have died for nothing.


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## grumpus

Fernando said:
			
		

> I am very sorry of playing the bitter role, but I am very sceptic:
> 
> 1) There have been about ten ETA truces. Results: none. I can not see why this one should be different.
> 
> 2) ETA has announced a permanent cease-fire. A for ever and ever renounce of violence? No Regret for the 1,000 killings? No Abandonment of weapons? No
> 
> 2) ETA has one objective: Independence for Basque Country (including Navarre and, eventually, French Basque Country). Given that it has not announced no abandon of these objectives they will turn to violence when their objective are not fulfilled.
> 
> 3) If they get no objectives, the news are great. Excellent news. The problem to me isthey are going to get some of their demands because they have some sort of implicit or explicit agreement with the government. If they get political objectives or an extensive reducement of jail penalties the news are awful to me. 1,000 people would have died for nothing.



HI Fernando,
we should celebrate an end to violence. But I wonder how many Basques (and others) were killed under Franco (and in democratic Spain)?  The terrorism of ETA didn't come because the Basque people are predisposed to violence.  Do the actions of the Spanish state require any consideration?

saludos,
Grumpus


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## Fernando

grumpus said:
			
		

> HI Fernando,
> we should celebrate an end to violence. But I wonder how many Basques (and others) were killed under Franco (and in democratic Spain)?  The terrorism of ETA didn't come because the Basque people are predisposed to violence.  Do the actions of the Spanish state require any consideration?



I will answer to you: 28 ETA members were killed in illegal actions during PSOE and UCD rules. ETA has murdered about 1,000 people (about 90% during democracy). So, I would say 40-1 is an unfair score.

During Franco rule, there were some death penalties (which I regret because I am against death penalty but for no other reason).

The terrorism of ETA came for several reasons, none of them justify the killings and the extortion.


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## grumpus

Fernando said:
			
		

> I will answer to you: 28 ETA members were killed in illegal actions during PSOE and UCD rules. ETA has murdered about 1,000 people (about 90% during democracy). So, I would say 40-1 is an unfair score.
> 
> During Franco rule, there were some death penalties (which I regret because I am against death penalty but for no other reason).
> 
> The terrorism of ETA came for several reasons, none of them justify the killings and the extortion.



Hi Fernando,
I agree, no need for violence as a response other than self-defense. It would be absurd to believe however that Franco didn't "dispose" on hundreds (if not thousands) of Basque Nationalists  (The post civil-war execution numbers in all of Spain run from 30,000 to 100,000).  This in addition to the horrible suppression of Basque culture and language.  Again, this doesn't justify random violence, but if you are serious about peace, these issues must be redressed.

Grumpus


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## Misao

Hombre, yo no digo que a partir del viernes todo sea de color de rosa y todos felices y comieron felices...también soy escéptica y tengo en mente la tregua entre 1998 y 1999 que, a mi parecer, solo sucedió por el puro hecho de que ETA necesitaba reorganizarse y una tregua le daba la tapadera perfecta hasta haber recuperado algo de fuerza para romperla con cualquer excusa y volver a matar.
Pero, como decían en un programa de tertulia de la etb (televisión autonómica vasca), a las palabras "alto el fuego" le siguen "permanente" y el final del comunicado dice: "La superación del conflicto, aquí y ahora, es posible. Ese es el deseo y la voluntad de ETA". Y eso parece ser importante.



> la gente no se siente especialmente *Aterrorizada*, más bien harta, asqueada, no comprende... Terror no siente (puede que sea diferente en el País vasco o en Madrid). La gente siente pena y solidaridad con las víctimas pero insisto: terror no. Hace vida normal.


 
No es que no sintamos terror, es que los españoles hemos aprendido a convivir con ello. Suene esta frase como suene, es verdad. Nos hemos "acostumbrado". 
Y sí, estamos hartos y no comprendemos a qué vienen unas reivindicaciones tan absurdas actualmente. Si de reclamar se trata, Aragón que se ponga nacionalista y reclame su antiguo reino...pero en fin.
Dentro de Euskadi es distinto. Allí sí hay gente que vive aterrorizada, chantajeada y amenazada. Gente que "duerme con dos Guardiaciviles debajo de la cama", como dice mi padre. La pregunta que se hacen muchos es si con el alto el fuego también acabarán las extorsiones y amenazas. 
¿Quieren la independencia? de acuerdo: País Vasco con sus tres provincias independiente. Pero claro, no solo de pan vive el hombre, que dice una canción de Albert Plá y quieren un trocito de aquí y un trocito de allá para que no les falte de "ná" y puedan ser autosuficientes (si es que eso es posible). Qué listos...
La división territorial española actual se hizo en 1883, que hubieran protestado entonces. 



> If they get political objectives or an extensive reducement of jail penalties the news are awful to me. 1,000 people would have died for nothing.


 
Fernando, he de disentir contigo. No creo que 1000 personas hayan muerto en vano. Hoy la Asosación de Víctimas del Terrorismo brindaba por los ausentes y por la paz.Algo escépticos, pero felices. 
¿Crees que Francia les va a dar un trozo de su territorio? "tomad, hijos míos, tomad para que no pataleéis". No lo creo. ¿Crees que les van a rebajar condena? Creo que una cosa es las negociaciones y otra muy diferente ser consecuentes con nuestros actos y saber aceptar los castigos que se nos imponen por nuestras faltas. Cada cosa que hacemos conlleva consecuencias. Hay que saber aceptar nuestras responsabilidades. Matar, directa o indirectamente, está mal y se ha de pagar por ello. 

Espero de verdad que aquí empiece el principio del fin de este terrorismo. 

Buenas noches a todos.


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## maxiogee

I believe that the Irish priest who played a big part in facilitating the IRA ceasefire negotiations - Father Alec Reid - played a major role in the ETA deliberations also.


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## Mei

Hola todos,

Si, yo también espero que sea verdad y que sea permanente. Estamos todos cansados de tanta violencia durante tantos años, ya era hora. 

Mei


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## Alundra

Mei said:
			
		

> Hola todos,
> 
> Si, yo también espero que sea verdad y que sea permanente. Estamos todos cansados de tanta violencia durante tantos años, ya era hora.
> 
> Mei


 
Yo también. Esperemos que todo se solucione de una vez por todas.

Alundra.


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## Fernando

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Fernando,
> I agree, no need for violence as a response other than self-defense. It would be absurd to believe however that Franco didn't "dispose" on hundreds (if not thousands) of Basque Nationalists  (The post civil-war execution numbers in all of Spain run from 30,000 to 100,000).  This in addition to the horrible suppression of Basque culture and language.  Again, this doesn't justify random violence, but if you are serious about peace, these issues must be redressed.



Franco disposed of thousands of people, but Basque nationalists were exceptionally well-treated. As a matter of fact, the collaboration of Basque nationalists with the Republican government was close to outright treason. Franco killed in País Vasco the non-nationalists (communists and anarchists), who were those who offered the most stubborn resistance.

Your number of executions is maybe an UNDERestimation. More people were shot. Of course, republicans killed people also, but this is not my point. The point is that ALL THE REST OF SPAIN had better reasons to raise a guerrilla against Franco than Basques nationalists.

"Supression of Basque language and culture": You are right Basque language was bad-treated during the dictatorship, but Basque Country was maintained as an entity (while Pays Basque -French- was diluted in a region called Pirynées Atlantiques). An Academia de la lengua vasca worked during all the Franco rule (unlike France). Basque books were published and you are right, Basque was not taught in state schools (the same as France).


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## Fernando

Misao said:
			
		

> Matar, directa o indirectamente, está mal y se ha de pagar por ello.
> 
> Espero de verdad que aquí empiece el principio del fin de este terrorismo.



I agree with all your post. I only hope you are right.


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## jmx

grumpus said:
			
		

> we should celebrate an end to violence. But I wonder how many Basques (and others) were killed under Franco (and in democratic Spain)? The terrorism of ETA didn't come because the Basque people are predisposed to violence. Do the actions of the Spanish state require any consideration?


I'm afraid you are under the influence of Basque nationalist propaganda. I've read a lot of descriptions in foreign media, mainly american, which depict the Franco regime as being particularly cruel against basques. For example, an incident about Basque inscriptions being erased from tombstones is repeated again and again. 

Of course Franco's regime was aggresive with Basque nationalists. Just as with catalan and galician nationalists, communists, anarchists, socialists or freemasons, among others. But, according to popular perception, the difference with Basque nationalism is that this ideology was founded as a racist one. Sabin Arana, the founder of Basque nationalism, stated clearly and aloud that the "basque race" is a superior one, and that it should be prevented from mixing with other races at any cost. At the time when ETA was born, the internal migration wave in Spain was at its peak. So, again according to popular perception, many basques were horrified at the possibility of becoming a minority in their own country. In fact the same fears appeared in Catalonia (and, in a way, still exist), but without the racist overtones. That would be the real cause of the ETA violence. Of course any basque nationalist will energically deny this, they perfectly know how stigmatised racism is in our modern world.

I must make it very clear that the independence of the Basque Country is a completely legitimate political objective.

I'm also very skeptical about the outcome of this event.


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## grumpus

jmartins said:
			
		

> I'm afraid you are under the influence of Basque nationalist propaganda. I've read a lot of descriptions in foreign media, mainly american, which depict the Franco regime as being particularly cruel against basques. For example, an incident about Basque inscriptions being erased from tombstones is repeated again and again.
> 
> Of course Franco's regime was aggresive with Basque nationalists. Just as with catalan and galician nationalists, communists, anarchists, socialists or freemasons, among others. But, according to popular perception, the difference with Basque nationalism is that this ideology was founded as a racist one. Sabin Arana, the founder of Basque nationalism, stated clearly and aloud that the "basque race" is a superior one, and that it should be prevented from mixing with other races at any cost. At the time when ETA was born, the internal migration wave in Spain was at its peak. So, again according to popular perception, many basques were horrified at the possibility of becoming a minority in their own country. In fact the same fears appeared in Catalonia (and, in a way, still exist), but without the racist overtones. That would be the real cause of the ETA violence. Of course any basque nationalist will energically deny this, they perfectly know how stigmatised racism is in our modern world.
> 
> I must make it very clear that the independence of the Basque Country is a completely legitimate political objective.
> 
> I'm also very skeptical about the outcome of this event.




Hola JMartins y Fernando,
I agree with what you are saying whole heartedly.  In fact, I think Spain (central government) has one of the most rational policies in the world towards, to say it in one word, "Regionalism" .  I wish the U.S. were more like Spain in this respect (we would learning Spanish in the schools where I live).   I wrote about Spain's policy in another post here in the forum.  The point I wanted to make is that ETA terrorism didn't come out of thin air, just as Al-Queda didn't.  And I reject both of these groups.  

saludos,
Grumpus


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## Fernando

Hitler did not came from thin air (Versailles+inflation+social crisis+bad partition of Austria+oppression of German minorities+occupation of Sarreland+Polish corridor affair). Should I "understand" Hitler? My opinion is absolutely not. 

Anyway, agreed Grumpus. Point taken.


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## Alunarada

Misao said:
			
		

> ¿Quieren la independencia? de acuerdo: País Vasco con sus tres provincias independiente. Pero claro, no solo de pan vive el hombre, que dice una canción de Albert Plá y quieren un trocito de aquí y un trocito de allá para que no les falte de "ná" y puedan ser autosuficientes (si es que eso es posible). Qué listos...
> La división territorial española actual se hizo en 1883, que hubieran protestado entonces.


 
Me parece muy bonito que hables así, tu que hablas de paz y bla bla bla , sin embargo puedo percibir odio en estas frases... 

¿por qué hablas así? Eres un poco ignorante si hablas así, porque en el país vasco mucha gente también nos consideramos españoles, además de vascos, tanto como tu te puedes considerar, y encima de que aqui nos vemos obligados a callarnos lo que más me jode es a gente ignorante, como tu, de la situación (que va predicando la paz etc) hablando así, de este modo que yo considero cruel e injusto con las personas que como yo y somos muchos sufrimos esta situación.


PD: ¿Quieren la independencia? No Misao, no todo el mundo aquí quiere ni deasea una hipotética independencia.

Y me parece una falta de respeto tremenda por tu parte al hablar así.


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## Fernando

Alunarada, estoy totalmente de acuerdo contigo, pero ¿bajamos el tono?


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## Alunarada

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I believe that the Irish priest who played a big part in facilitating the IRA ceasefire negotiations - Father Alec Reid - played a major role in the ETA deliberations also.


 
Please basque country is not northen ireland, don't compare them.
the political problems are very diferent in my point of wiew


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## Alunarada

grumpus said:
			
		

> HI Fernando,
> we should celebrate an end to violence. But I wonder how many Basques (and others) were killed under Franco (and in democratic Spain)? The terrorism of ETA didn't come because the Basque people are predisposed to violence. Do the actions of the Spanish state require any consideration?
> 
> saludos,
> Grumpus


 
what is the point of that? as u said not only basque people were killed, others, gays, republicans, comunists and people who just didn't agree with the dictatorship "rules"

in every dictatorship people are assasinated.


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## grumpus

Alunarada said:
			
		

> what is the point of that? as u said not only basque people were killed, others, gays, republicans, comunists and people who just didn't agree with the dictatorship "rules"
> 
> in every dictatorship people are assasinated.




Hi Alunarada,
so I guess it's just fair (and expected) that a dictator kills.  And we should expect no reaction?????  I guess with the invasion of Iraq you call the insurgents "terrorists" but not the Marines, British troops, and at one time the Spanish troops, etc...  Don't side with power, they've already set the rules of the game.

saludos,
Grumpus


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## grumpus

Fernando said:
			
		

> Hitler did not came from thin air (Versailles+inflation+social crisis+bad partition of Austria+oppression of German minorities+occupation of Sarreland+Polish corridor affair). Should I "understand" Hitler? My opinion is absolutely not.
> 
> Anyway, agreed Grumpus. Point taken.




Precisamente Fernando, 
As we say in English, you've hit the nail on the head.  Hitler would not have arisen had the legitimate complaints the Germans had been dealt with.  Likewise, AL Qaeda would not exist if the legitimate complaints had been dealt with.  Same for ETA.
I don't think we need to "understand" these groups, but we do need to understand why they exist.

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## Alunarada

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Alunarada,
> so I guess it's just fair (and expected) that a dictator kills. And we should expect no reaction????? I guess with the invasion of Iraq you call the insurgents "terrorists" but not the Marines, British troops, and at one time the Spanish troops, etc... Don't side with power, they've already set the rules of the game.
> 
> saludos,
> Grumpus


 

please don't mislead my words, don't go on a tangent , i didn't say that,
u know it! i said many people were killed.
what i meant is that franco's dictatorship was unfair to many people, not just to basques.


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## Mei

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Alunarada,
> so I guess it's just fair (and expected) that a dictator kills.  And we should expect no reaction?????  I guess with the invasion of Iraq you call the insurgents "terrorists" but not the Marines, British troops, and at one time the Spanish troops, etc...  Don't side with power, they've already set the rules of the game.
> 
> saludos,
> Grumpus


Where did she said that?!!  You guessed too much.  

No, it's not fair... but it's a fact. 

Why did you mention Iraq? We're talking about ETA.

Mei


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## Mei

De todas maneras... ETA ha dicho de hacer un alto el fuego, una tregua permanente pero no ha dicho nada de entragar las armas, ¿verdad? Corregirdme si me equivoco, pero lo he leido esta mañana en El Periódico. 

Y digo yo... ¿para qué las quieren si no las va a utilizar? No se... todo esto es muy complicado, hay muchos intereses de por medio.

Saludos

Mei


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## cirrus

Ojalá que sea permanente.  El comunicado me despertó cierto optimismo pero a la vez la imagen de los portavoces encapuchados me dio un escalofrió.  
 
Aunque la situación es distinta a la de Irlanda del Norte, sin embargo hay ciertos factores en común – una larga historia bastante amarga, mucha muertes y violencia innecesarias, etapas bastante largas donde los principales actores politicos no se hablaban y el hecho de que de cierta manera todo el país se acustumbró a vivir con el terrorismo.  
 
Me parece que la paz definitiva no vendrá en cuestión de años, sino más bien décadas.  El camino hacia esta meta primordial tendrá sus propios altíbajos, y lo más esencial es no dejarse desviar por estos obstáculos intermedios - o sea nunca perder este objetivo de la vista.


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## Ana Raquel

I feel uncomfortable with that image of death they portray, listening to that arrogant tone addressing us speaking about justice and democracy, but I understand this is better and I have nothing more than joining to the optimism of others because stopping violence is always correct.

Grumpus talks about Franco, but Fernando words are irrefutable, and you agreed, nothing excuses violence as a response other than self-defense, so please don't add 'however-s or but-s.


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## Ana Raquel

*maxiogee wrote:*
_I believe that the Irish priest who played a big part in facilitating the IRA ceasefire negotiations - Father Alec Reid - played a major role in the ETA deliberations also_.

he is mentioned on the news, very little information about his role, but yes, it seems he is there.


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## grumpus

Mei said:
			
		

> Where did she said that?!!  You guessed too much.
> 
> No, it's not fair... but it's a fact.
> 
> Why did you mention Iraq? We're talking about ETA.
> 
> Mei




Hi Mei and ALunarada,

My point was not very clear.  What I was suggesting is that
if there is violent action against a community, it is not surprising there would be reprisals (what the STATE calls terrorism).  So it is not surprising that ETA was formed and struck back.  Why didn't other groups strike back (the communists, anarchists etc., well they did actually, just not very "successfully"), I think that was Alunarada''s question.  And I thought that is a strange thing to say on her part.  So I asked "rhetorically"  if she would also be surprised about the Iraqi resistance rising up (what the U.S. calls "terrorism"). And if she would call the insurgence "terrorists", but not the U.S. forces.  Why some groups strike back and other's don't is based on all sorts of historical contigencies.  
ETA was able to do it, so they become the archetype terrorist group. But remember the ETA terror was preceded by State terror.
This is the parallel with Iraq.  And that's why I brought it up.

Does this help???

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## grumpus

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> I feel uncomfortable with that image of death they portray, listening to that arrogant tone addressing us speaking about justice and democracy, but I understand this is better and I have nothing more than joining to the optimism of others because stopping violence is always correct.
> 
> Grumpus talks about Franco, but Fernando words are irrefutable, and you agreed, nothing excuses violence as a response other than self-defense, so please don't add 'however-s or but-s.




Hi Ana 
What about State violence against the community in question?  Is it irrelevant?  I am sorry to draw parallels, BUT it helps to understand the situation.  Do Palestinians have a "right" to shoot any Israeli official in the illegally occupied territories?

If a Basque person ("accused of being ETA") was being tortured (maybe to death) under Franco in a jail, did ETA members have a right to shoot the police to free the victim?.  It's not black and white.  Is this self-defense?  

So I guess I disagree with you and Fernando.  Violence should only be used in self-defense  (BUT, what is self-defense???????????)
PLENTY OF BUTs and HOWEVERs

saludos,
Grumpus


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## Roi Marphille

Hi, 
I'd just like to point that the nowadays-ETA has nothing to do with the truly authentic first years of the band. They (in the begining, during the Fascist period) fought for their country, they had ideas, they had spirit and they had the guts. That was a truly revolutionary movement. They were supported by many thousands, maybe milions, they were the heroes of their people. They were admired in the Basque lands and outside. 
In the begining, ETA was applaused by many people inside and outside Spain, including European and USA organizations, including prestigious newspapers. They were performing a war against fascism and fought for Socialism and for the workers.
Then, ETA became a criminal mafia-alike organization. They were just terrorist who could not find a real cause. I think most of the members were guided by the hate to Spain or France because many of them had some relatives in prision or killed by police. They still used the name of that old organization called ETA and tried to profit all the prestigious it had many many many years ago.
But it was pointless, prestige was gone, ideas were gone, they still think that they represent a big percentage of Basque population and they tried to link themselves with Democratic Nationalism because they theoretically share objectives but they have nothing to do with it. They could not addapt themselves in the new Democratic (and not perfect) scenario. That's it in my opinion. 
It is great that they are stopping that nonsense. That's not the way and I think they even knew that. 
Another thing: PP sucks! they are f* liars!!!. They treat as terrorists all Democratic Nationalism, they attack the Socialist Party because they had done THE F* SAME as they did, so it is negotiate or trying to negotiate with ETA to stop the violence. The PSOE had done very well, they asked for permision before talking to ETA. PP did not ask for permision in Las Cortes, they just talked with them, and now they are denying it all. F* LIARS!!!
Let's all play Democracy in peace. 
Thanks


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## Fernando

Grumpus:

1) Stay in the point. ETA, neither Iraq nor Palestine. 

Just to answer your question, no. I do not think Palestinian have a right to shoot any Israeli official.

2) "If a Basque person ("accused of being ETA") was being tortured (maybe to death) under Franco in a jail, did ETA members have a right to shoot the police to free the victim?. It's not black and white. Is this self-defense? "

If my aunt had moustache... It would not be my aunt, but my uncle. 
If the martians invaded Poland in the 13th century, they would have the right to construct Battleship Galactica and look for revenge.

3) "What is self-defense?" For sure, not what ETA does.

You have a couple of nice ideas in your head about State terrorism and you apply them regardless the circumstances. I have heard a bunch of your mates saying the same things everywhere. You should commit suicide since you think West is so bad and we deserve death under Al-Qaida boys.

NO. NONE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL INNOCENTS FOR THINGS THEIR GRANDPARENTS DID (RATHER, SUPPOSEDLY DID).

NO. I HAVE NOT THE RIGHT TO KILL BERLUSCONI BECAUSE THE ROMANS PLUNDERED SPAIN'S GOLD.


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## tatis

Perdón, se dice un "alto *el* fuego" o "un alto *al* fuego"...

Mis mejores deseos en todo esto.  Estoy con la paz.


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## Fernando

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> I'd just like to point that the nowadays-ETA has nothing to do with the truly authentic first years of the band. They (in the begining, during the Fascist period) fought for their country, they had ideas, they had spirit and they had the guts. That was a truly revolutionary movement. They were supported by many thousands, maybe milions, they were the heroes of their people. They were admired in the Basque lands and outside.



They were admired for the stupids that thought they fought for democracy. They fight for independence of P.B. + Navarre, period. They have ever been the same shit.




			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> In the begining, ETA was applaused by many people inside and outside Spain, including European and USA organizations, including prestigious newspapers. They were performing a war against fascism and fought for Socialism and for the workers.



Where-in-the-hell-you-have-learned-that, my friend?????



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> Another thing: PP sucks!


 



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> They treat as terrorists all Democratic Nationalism,


Yes, they have jailed all CiU, PNV and even ERC. Of course. In which country (1) have you lived in the past 10 years?



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> they attack the Socialist Party because they had done THE F* SAME as they did, so it is negotiate or trying to negotiate with ETA to stop the violence.



Last news: Rajoy has offered his support to Zapatero (assuming they do not give too much, of course.



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> Thanks



You are wellcome.

(1) I mean, State


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## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> Where-in-the-hell-you-have-learned-that, my friend?????
> D


you know, I see many movies.  "operación Ogro" for instance. 
No, I don't think they were "the same shit" as now, my friend. They were one of many other organizations who fought against Fascism. Is it naive to fight against the Power? yes, it may. "maquis" fought against Fascism too, they knew they could not win but they still fought and most of them died in battle. Is that fair to kill an innocent 20year-old Guardia Civil who has a father and a mother who care for him? no, it isn't! war is not fair. That was a cruel war. 
I admire the people who fought against Fascism. Some of these people were workers in a factory of Leganés, Cornellà or wherever, some were mineros of Asturias, some were maquis, some were ETA members, some were communists and so on. Many of them died, many of them were tortured, many of them spend many years in prisions, many of them had to leave their beloved country, whatever the name of the country is. 
ETA had done a hell of a good job in 1973!
Yes, I guess ETA fought for the independence of Euskal Herria, but I dare to say that first, they fought against the Fascism.


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## Alunarada

i agree with most of you have said but i was like  when i read the following



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> They (in the begining, during the Fascist period) fought for their country, they had ideas, they had spirit and they had the guts. That was a truly revolutionary movement. *They were supported by many thousands, maybe milions, they were the heroes of their people. They were admired in the Basque lands and outside.*


 
*were they? let me tell you something: i don't think so!!!*
*i don't think right people can support criminal actions under any pretext, that's horrible!!*
*anyway i dont belive "so many people" supported them and their activities, before, now and never!!!*



			
				Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> In the begining, ETA was applaused by many people inside and outside Spain, including European and USA organizations, including prestigious newspapers. They were performing a war against fascism and fought for Socialism and for the workers.


 
 *really? ......*


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## Fernando

Roi, the problem with ETA is that some people thought: 'Mmm, they are fighting against Franco. we are fighting against Franco. They should be good guys.'

This is a major mistake. Half the people who fought against Franco (during the war and afterwards) were simply hard-core communists. They did not give a shit about democracy. They wanted to stablish a proletariat dictatorship. Nothing else.

I am very glad you to admire the maquis. At least their way of fighting was (not always) fair. They tried to kill guardias civiles. They tried but guardias civiles won the 'war'. End of the story. Finito. Wolves against wolves. Some wolves won, some wolves lost. 

ETA has no point in their favour, They only have ever wanted the independence of P.B., including territories that never will join them, just to form a Stalinist-type regime. They only have 'fought' with the shoot in the head or the bomb car, with the minimum risk involved.

Was Stalin a nice guy because he fought against 'Fascism'? Hell no.

I repeat: I am against the death penalties against ETA in the last years of Franco just because I am againts death penalty. NO OTHER REASON.


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## Alunarada

*do you know what "euskal herria" is ? "it" has never been actually, it is a freaking nationalist concept and an old utopia.*


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## Misao

I think I must agree with Roi about the fact that actual ETA has nothing to do with the one created so many years ago. Their initial obectives were clear then: they fought against the government of Franco, they wanted to be independent from the fraquist Spain... 
I was thinking how ironic is, that ETA may be the ones who saved Spain from the dictatorial times when they murdered Carrero Blanco in 1973, who was becoming the successor of Franco. 
However, when Franco died and Democracy was set finally in Spain...they lost their reason to fight. That's my view...Afterwards they have been defeated, they have lost their leaders...and the rest didn't even know the real reasons to go on fighting...the ideals were dead. I think it is difficult for a murder to leave this way and to live as a normal person, the same way it is difficult for an ex-convict who has spent 40 years in prision to come back to the unsecurity of the free world...
Now it is time to recognize that Euskadi is no more in danger...none of us is. We live in a free country with no kind of repression. A song comes just right now to my mind:

"Jesusito de mi vida
eres niño como yo, di...
¿por qué han matao a mi papa?
estoy solito
¿qué hare yo?

It is part of an Albert Plá song titled "Mi novia es una terrorista". 

On the other side, Grumpus, Pallestines or Al-Qaeda have nothing to do with ETA. The context is totally different. And yes, unfortunately History is created by the winners and they say that iraqi resistence is a terrorist group, and yes, ,most of them are just defending their country from the invasors. However and unfortunately, in 100 years children will learn in schools that they were the worst terrorist ever existed in the world...in case the world exist in 100 years...

Roi, films are films anyway...you shouldn't believe all you watch on TV 

And please, don't fight due to this thread...aren't we talking about peace?? so...I order you to be peaceful!!! 

Good night everybody!


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## Alunarada

grumpus said:
			
		

> I think that was Alunarada''s question. And I thought that is a strange thing to say on her part.
> Does this help???


 
no, it doesn't help
you shouldn't mix conflicts up, irak, palestine & israelis, northen ireland, chechenia & russia, what else? i guess u will bring up more 

why in the hell did u say this "And I thought that is a strange thing to say on her part." ?

let me know because i don't get it. maybe because i'm basque and i'm not independentist as u thought we all basque people are?? or what??


ps: my question? .....


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## Misao

tatis said:
			
		

> Perdón, se dice un "alto *el* fuego" o "un alto *al* fuego"...
> 
> Mis mejores deseos en todo esto. Estoy con la paz.


 
Ah, tatis, se dice "un alto el fuego"...al menos es lo que siempre he oído...y lo que todos los medios de comunicación dicen...al menos en España...quizá en Latinoamérica se diga "un alto al fuego"...aunque me suena un poco extraño porque es una expresión fija...

saludos!


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## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> Roi, the problem with ETA is that some people thought: 'Mmm, they are fighting against Franco. we are fighting against Franco. They should be good guys.'
> This is a major mistake. Half the people who fought against Franco (during the war and afterwards) were simply hard-core communists. They did not give a shit about democracy. They wanted to stablish a proletariat dictatorship. Nothing else.


yes amigo Fernando. I understand you point. You may be right. 
But, you and me know that the World itself is not perfect...and... ETA did have a lot of support years ago(Basque church institution included. You know what? ETA was created in a "seminario". ) inside Basque Country, inside Spain and outside Spain. 

My point:
I don't consider that ETA were terrorist and assassins DURING Fascism period. 

...and "operación Ogro" is a great movie.


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## Cintia&Martine

Buenas noches,
*.






			They were admired in the Basque lands and outside
		
Click to expand...

*Si es cierto, hasta la muerte de Franco se aceptaba ETA en el extranjero, se nos presentaba como una orgnización que luchaba contra la dictadura: _el sanctuario francés_ y si bien desde fuera no se puede saber todo, las ejecuciones, sobre todo las últimas (Burgos, 5 personas creo recordar -corregirme si hace falta-) confortaron la opinión pública en esta creencia.
Y después vino la magnífica transición, la democracia, por eso decía en mi precedente intervención que después sólo despertaban rechazo, asco e incomprensión.
Y si de verdad millones de vascos querían otro estatuto, si no estaban de acuerdo con el estado existen las huelgas, las manifestaciones, los recursos políticos y judiciales... ¿No echó Gandhi a los ingleses de la India con estos métodos? Pero claro, la democracia era joven, no se fíaban (supongo), pero después del 23F, ya no hubo duda posible sobre la consolidación de la democracia.

En cuanto a lo de las armas que no quieren soltar... ahora...
Será un proceso largo como una convalescencia para un enfermo. Quizá haya recaidas, quizá algún elemento descontrolado vuelva a matar.
Pero estoy firmemente convencida de que es el comienzo de algo.
Porque veo por lo menos un respeto de parte del gobierno que no he visto hasta ahora, veo tesón, paciencia, voluntad.
QUIERO CREER que es el fin de este absurdo criminal
Buenas noches


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## Misao

Alunarada said:
			
		

> Me parece muy bonito que hables así, tu que hablas de paz y bla bla bla , sin embargo puedo percibir odio en estas frases...
> 
> ¿por qué hablas así? Eres un poco ignorante si hablas así, porque en el país vasco mucha gente también nos consideramos españoles, además de vascos, tanto como tu te puedes considerar, y encima de que aqui nos vemos obligados a callarnos lo que más me jode es a gente ignorante, como tu, de la situación (que va predicando la paz etc) hablando así, de este modo que yo considero cruel e injusto con las personas que como yo y somos muchos sufrimos esta situación.
> 
> 
> PD: ¿Quieren la independencia? No Misao, no todo el mundo aquí quiere ni deasea una hipotética independencia.
> 
> Y me parece una falta de respeto tremenda por tu parte al hablar así.


 
No había visto este post hasta ahora...Alunarada, no me estaba refiriendo en mi comentario al pueblo vasco, sino a ETA, que lucha por unos ideales que creo murieron con el Franquismo. Siento que mis palabras se hayan malinterpretado. Y no, no las escribi con odio, sino más bien con sarcasmo y hastío. 
Sin embargo, me reitero en afirmar que la independencia que reclama ETA no es la del Pais Vasco como territorio independiente de España, sino que quieren coger un poco de aquí y un poco de allá y eso ya no es la independencia del País Vasco. 

Cuando el señor Ibarretxe presentó su Plan ante los políticos (y ante España, que lo ví todo en La 2), me sorprendió mucho oirle hablar sobre 1876 y el concierto económico y la pérdida de los fueros, etc. 
Por eso dije que fue en 1883 cuando se hizo la división territorial en España y que (añado ahora), si la autosuficiencia del pueblo vasco se remonta al siglo XIX, podían haber protestado entonces y haber creado un País Vasco con los territorios que prentende ETA anexionarse actualmente. De haberse dado ese caso, podría llegar a entenderlo...Pero la realidad es otra y sigo sin entenderlo. 

No es lo mismo ETA que el pueblo vasco, los sé, y no pretendía generalizar. Te pido disculpas otra vez si mis palabras te han molestado.

Saludos


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## Alunarada

bien pues te pediría por favor que no utilices el sarcasmo en temas tand elicados como este, para mi es un tema muy serio y afecta a mucha gente , aqui no nos podemos tomar a broma las palabras cuando se habla de politica, sabes? no se puede jugar con estas cosas.
hacemos las paces? jeje 
perdona por las cosas que te dije, pero pro favor si te pediría que seas más cuidadosa la próxima vez


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## Viriato

Espero y deseo que de verdad sea *PERMANENTE*. El viernes oí a gente que vive en el país vasco, y que de alguna manera están vinculados al PSOE o al PP, decir que desde hacía muchos años por fin podían salir a tomar pintxos y txikitos tranquilamente. Se les veía felices.
Lo dicho, que sea permanente y definitivo. Pero también pido a algunos políticos que dejen de mentir, entorpecer y manipular sobre la nueva situación. A ver si es posible que con el consenso de todos se termine la violencia de ETA, se normalice la situación y que defiendan sus ideales de forma totalmente democrática y dentro del marco constitucional de España.


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## Misao

Alunarada said:
			
		

> bien pues te pediría por favor que no utilices el sarcasmo en temas tand elicados como este, para mi es un tema muy serio y afecta a mucha gente , aqui no nos podemos tomar a broma las palabras cuando se habla de politica, sabes? no se puede jugar con estas cosas.
> hacemos las paces? jeje
> perdona por las cosas que te dije, pero pro favor si te pediría que seas más cuidadosa la próxima vez


 
Paces hechas  Pero déjame añadir que puede que los vascos seais los directamente afectados por esta situación, pero también el resto de españoles siente ese terror como suyo. No solo vosotros tenéis miedo...aunque no lo parezca.
Si utilicé el sarcasmo es porque temas como este sacan lo más ácido de mí ..porque me siento impotente, porque estoy cansada de intentar enteder... y no me lleva a ningún sitio...porque a veces me gustaría que se murieran todos ya y nos dejaran vivir en paz a los que queremos vivir en una democracia normal...si es que esas dos palabras pueden ir unidas, claro...
ETA, como Hitler, como la caza de focas en el ártico, como muchos otros temas me sacan de quicio...y es cuando el sarcasmo sale a la luz...


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## gato2

Es una buena noticia pero da miedo confiarse porque ya hemos tenido otras decepciones.

Respecto a otros temas que he visto por aqui no me parece logico empezar a hablar sobre el franquismo y las justificaciones de ETA. Yo no dudo que durante el franquismo se cometieran injusticias, pero:

1. El franquismo acabo hace muchos años (y ETA continuo)

2. Una injusticia NUNCA justifica otra injusticia


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## Mei

Misao said:
			
		

> el resto de españoles siente ese terror como suyo. No solo vosotros tenéis miedo...aunque no lo parezca.


 
Yo opino lo mismo, es más... todavía no me creo esta tregua, no estoy tranquila... demasiadas decepciones... a ver qué pasa, como siempre.

Mei


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## illerdi

Sé que llego un poco tarde (más vale tarde que nunca) a esta discusión pero no me puedo quedar callada después de haber leido algunos comentarios. 

Parece ser que todos nos alegramos con el anuncio del alto el fuego por parte de ETA, pero ¿por qué ese escepticismo e intranquilidad por parte de muchos? la verdad que no entiendo la felicidad con resquemores de algunos.

¿Quieren la independencia? de acuerdo: País Vasco con sus tres provincias independiente. Pero claro, no solo de pan vive el hombre, que dice una canción de Albert Plá y quieren un trocito de aquí y un trocito de allá para que no les falte de "ná" y puedan ser autosuficientes (si es que eso es posible). Qué listos...

¿Crees que Francia les va a dar un trozo de su territorio? "tomad, hijos míos, tomad para que no pataleéis".

"If a Basque person ("accused of being ETA") was being tortured (maybe to death) under Franco in a jail, did ETA members have a right to shoot the police to free the victim?. It's not black and white. Is this self-defense? "
*If my aunt had moustache... It would not be my aunt, but my uncle. *
*If the martians invaded Poland in the 13th century, they would have the right to construct Battleship Galactica and look for revenge.*

do you know what "euskal herria" is ? "it" has never been actually, it is a freaking nationalist concept and an old utopia.

Todos estos comentarios, entre otros, duelen, algunos por su sarcasmo, otros por su ignorancia y otros por que me parecen que están dichos con odio. Y esto es lo que nunca he entendido: ¿Por qué les fastidia a los españoles que los vascos queramos la independencia? Nosotros (los vascos de Araba, Baxenafarroa, Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa, Lapurdi, Nafarroa y Zuberoa) tenemos que tener la última palabra. ETA ya ha dado el primer paso, ahora les toca a los gobiernos, y ahora se verá si realmente quieren que se acabe este conflicto que tanto dolor y sufrimiento trae a todas las partes.

Por otra parte me he alegrado muchísimo al leer los comentarios de grumpus, tan poco usuales por aquí. Pero ya ves, grumpus, para unos no existe el terrorismo de estado ni más cuestiones que comparto totalmente contigo. 

un pacífico saludo a todos/as.


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