# Norwegian: Herr



## Xander2024

Hello everyone,

could someone please tell me if the word "herr" is pronounced [hær:] or [her:]?

Mange takk.


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## TomTrussel

It's pronounced as if it was spelled "hærr" 

TT


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## Xander2024

Takk skal du ha, Tom.


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## NorwegianNYC

On a side note, Xander - titles have never been common in Norwegian, so be careful using _Herr_ as you run the risk of sounding old-fashioned. Very few will actually use _Herr_ and _Fru_ today (both words are imported from German), not because people are not polite, but because historically it was never really a part of Norwegian culture.


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## Xander2024

Yes, Norwegian, I was just coming to that - is there some form of address you use instead? I did suspect "Herr" and "Fru" were not so common nowadays.

Thank you.


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## NorwegianNYC

It is a much misunderstood concept. Truth is that titles were never common in Norwegian, we have not had a native aristocracy for centuries, and society was less stratified than most other European countries. Norway was the 2nd poorest country in Europe in 1914, so the well-of, who were influenced by European traditions in terms of using titles to indicate your social standing was a very small group, and even that distinction was largely gone after 1950.

_Herr_ and _Fru_ are German terms, and even if they have seen some historical use, they never took hold. Norway was - some will argue it still is - a clan-based society where name, father's name (patronym) and place meant a lot more than social standing. Historically, a Norwegian went by names like Tore Petterson/-sen/-sønn fra Storås, and was commonly known as 'Tore' (in a local setting even as "Petter-Tore", since the father's name was Petter). It would make no sense to call the person _Herr_ Pettersen, since this also included Tore's brothers (also sons of Petter).

Last names were actually not required in Norway until 1922, and them most took the placename, so that Tore Pettersen fra Storås became "Tore Storås". Many took the patronym as last name and became Pettersen, Hansen, Olsen etc, although their fathers' names were not Petter, Hans and Ole/Ola.

As polite form today, Norwegian address someone by their last name, but without a title. If you get to know them, you are suppose to only use their fist name, because it is also considered bad form to address a person you know by last name.


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## Xander2024

Tusen takk for den argende interessant informasjonen.

(Sorry about my poor Norwegian)


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## Xander2024

NorwegianNYC said:


> As polite form today, Norwegian address someone by their last name, but without a title. If you get to know them, you are suppose to only use their fist name, because it is also considered bad form to address a person you know by last name.



 And how does one address people one doesn't know at all? For example, in English they have "sir" and "ma'am" if you have to address a person in the street. (Excuse me, sir, how do I get to...?)

Takk.


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## TomTrussel

It's not really all that common for the younger generations, but most people will still consider it polite to use "De" instead of "du" when addressing strangers. "Unnskyld meg, kunne De si meg..." it's related to the German Sie if I'm not mistaken. (A curiosity maybe; The Royal Guard branch of the Norwegian army still instructs it's men to use "De" among themselves, but it's not practised)

TT


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## Xander2024

And is there a polite form of "takk skal du ha" or is it a set expression always used with "du"?

Takk.


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## TomTrussel

Xander2024 said:


> And is there a polite form of "takk skal du ha" or is it a set expression always used with "du"?
> 
> Takk.



Again, any use of "De" instead of "du" will be received as polite/formal, so "takk skal De ha" would be the polite version  

This maybe a bit on the side, but Norway is a very "flat" society, with very little difference between the status of an ordinary employee and the status of the CEO in a company, compared to other countries, even Sweden and Denmark. This is the reason I think, that Norwegians use very little time and effort on being overly polite, to the degree we might come across as right out rude to people from other cultures. 

TT


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## Xander2024

Tusen takk, Tom.


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## Tjahzi

I believe a core issue here is the fact that the in most other languages obvious relationship between _respect - politeness - distance - appreciation_ is not present in Norwegian (and Swedish, and I believe the same could be said about Danish). While you in other languages would use a polite way of expressing yourself to signal inferiority/distance in order to please the addressee, such a behavior would fall flat in Swedish simply because no one is interested in such a relation. Long story short, people are more comfortable being equals than superiors/inferiors.


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## Xander2024

Det här är en interessante observation, Tjahzi.

Tack så mycket.


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## Tech12

TomTrussel said:


> It's not really all that common for the younger generations, but most people will still consider it polite to use "De" instead of "du" when addressing strangers. "Unnskyld meg, kunne De si meg..." it's related to the German Sie if I'm not mistaken. (A curiosity maybe; The Royal Guard branch of the Norwegian army still instructs it's men to use "De" among themselves, but it's not practised)
> 
> TT



Are you saying there are people who still use "De" in speech? I've never heard it used (except jokingly) in my entire life.


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## TomTrussel

I was thought to use it in school, when talking to strangers. I'm sure I didn't do a very good job at actually using it every time, but I have used it.  I was born in 1969. But you are right, it's something that sounds a bit archaic these days.

TT


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## Xander2024

Interestingly, in Russian (just like in Spanish and many other languages) we have both "du" and "De" and it would be considered almost an insult to say "du" to a stranger or an elder person.


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## Tech12

I've heard that NRK (The Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) decided to stop using De/Dem in the 1970's and that that was a major contributing factor in it going out of use. Maybe someone could confirm/deny?

It is still sometimes used in extremely formal letters, for instance from the police or tax authorities. Paradoxically enough I actually find it somewhat insulting, maybe because it gives the impression that the sender wants to appear all high and mighty.


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## Xander2024

And I suppose they do use "Herr" or "Fru" in formal letters?


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## NorwegianNYC

Herr and Fru, as well as De and Dem it is not used on TV or by media - and it has not been used by NRK since 1974. It was dropped from school curriculum in 1973, and even then it was rarely used, and mostly as examples of _hypothetical_ polite forms in Norwegian. Also, it saw common usage in Norway for less than 90 years, from around 1870 until 1960, and it rapidly disappeared in the post-war years. It was never wide-spread, and for the most part, it was used in writing.

If I were you, I would NOT use Herr or Fru, nor would I use De or Dem. In a formal letter, use the first and last name of the person, with no indication of title.


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## Xander2024

Hmm... I expect there must be some forms of address in formal letters when the name of the addressee is unknown. In English, they use "Dear Sirs/Madames".
What do you use in Norwegian? Just "God dag"?


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## TomTrussel

I'm not sure I understand what kind of letters you mean. If you mean letters for multiple recipients, they often address the group, as in "Kjære beboere" if addressed to the habitants of a building complex, or "Kjære ansatte" if addressed to all employees in a company. More often than not, they will actually not use "Kjære" either, just head the note with "Til alle beboere/ansatte"

TT


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## hanne

In a very formal letter, to one or more unknown recipients, I might use "til rette vedkommende" (to whom it may concern) in Danish. But I can't think of any situation where I'd want to use anything similar to "Dear Sirs"...


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## NorwegianNYC

TomTrussel said:


> I'm not sure I understand what kind of letters you mean. If you mean letters for multiple recipients, they often address the group, as in "Kjære beboere" if addressed to the habitants of a building complex, or "Kjære ansatte" if addressed to all employees in a company. More often than not, they will actually not use "Kjære" either, just head the note with "Til alle beboere/ansatte"
> 
> TT



I agree with TT. Also, if you are addressing a single person, say (e.g.) 'Til Arne Berg'


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## Xander2024

Mange takk for hjelpen/ Tusind tak for hjælpen.


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## NorwegianNYC

hanne said:


> In a very formal letter, to one or more unknown recipients, I might use "til rette vedkommende" (to whom it may concern) in Danish. But I can't think of any situation where I'd want to use anything similar to "Dear Sirs"...



You can do that in Norwegian as well. Still, I would try to be more specific, and as TT says further up, try to find a reasonable description for you addressees.
Another this - in modern Norwegian, the only individuals who are routinely addressed by title, are the members of the royal family (e.g. "did the King like the concert?"
Doctors (of any kind) are normally NOT referred to by title, and especially not in writing. In Norway, a medical doctor is only allowed to use the 'doctor' (dr.) if they actually hold a doctorate in medicine, and not are just physicians.


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## Xander2024

NorwegianNYC said:


> Doctors (of any kind) are normally NOT referred to by title, and especially not in writing. In Norway, a medical doctor is only allowed to use the 'doctor' (dr.) if they actually hold a doctorate in medicine, and not are just physicians.



But do you still address a doctor "Doctor"? Like "Doctor, is it very dangerous?"


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## hanne

Xander2024 said:


> But do you still address a doctor "Doctor"? Like "Doctor, is it very dangerous?"


No. When you want to say that you're usually in a conversation with the person, and you'll simply say "is it very dangerous?" As a good basic rule, you simply never address anyone by title (nor by Herr, Fru, etc), as NNYC mentioned at the bottom of the previous page.


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## Xander2024

That's really strange. To the best of my knowledge, in Sverige they do address a doctor "Doktor".


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## hanne

Xander2024 said:


> That's really strange. To the best of my knowledge, in Sverige they do address a doctor "Doktor".


Still? I'd be quite surprised if they do, but I'm sure someone will drop by to tell us.


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## Tjahzi

Well... It's possible. As in, when you go to the hospital, you don't address a doctor with _Doktor_. However, a nurse might address a doctor as such, meaning that there might be an hierarchy within the hospital (a closed system) which is not present in the society as a whole.

That said, I'll investigate the matter further.


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## Xander2024

I have some Swedish textbooks (not very old ones) and there are dialogs with phrases like "Goddag, herr Blom". Besides, there are online courses of Swedish where you can find sentences like "Doktor, vad ska jag göra?"


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## NorwegianNYC

Xander2024 said:


> I have some Swedish textbooks (not very old ones) and there are dialogs with phrases like "Goddag, herr Blom". Besides, there are online courses of Swedish where you can find sentences like "Doktor, vad ska jag göra?"


Well, if you do not know the name of the doctor, you might as well call him/her "doctor", I guess. Then again, if you did not know the name of your teacher, you would probable address him/her as "teacher" too. The sentence "Doktor, vad ska jag göra?" does not indicate whether you know the name of the doctor or not. As Tjahzi says, we of course use these words as names for professions, and also professional relations, but not as TITLES.


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## Xander2024

And this means we can use the name of a person's occupation/profession when addressing them, right? Another example from a Swedish textbook:

Säg, konduktörn, hur dags kommer vi till Malmö?


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## NorwegianNYC

I think that sounds reasonable. In English, I would say: "Excuse me, Sir, but when do we arrive at Penn Station". If I said "Excuse me, Conductor (or even worse: Mr. Conductor)", it would be construed as patronizing. In Scandinavia, it is the other way around. Do not attempt to "create" a title, but stick with the work description of the person.


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## Xander2024

Takk, NNYC.


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