# Should men get up in public transport when woman is standing???



## Little_Me

Today something nice but extremely surprising happened to me

I got in to the very crowded bus and just in front of me was sitting a young man, maybe 25. He looked at me, took a look around and (probably becuase there was no free seat) got up and said: "Please, sit down". I was almost shocked, 'cause in Poland there is an unwritten rule that we should get up when elderly people or pregnant women have no seat, but there's nothing about getting up when a young and healthy (and definitely not pregnant) girl, as I am, is standing! I was hesitating, but the guy said the he just wouldn't be able to sit if a woman stands! That was so nice, but I've never seen such situation before; it's not common at all in Poland.

So I'm curious how it looks like in other countries. Do men get up in buses, trains when woman is standing and has no seat? And do you think they should get up?

Warm greetings,
Little_Me


----------



## Sallyb36

It does occasionally happen in the UK, but i think less than it used to.  It used to be common for this to happen.


----------



## ducki

i think he wanted to flirt with you


----------



## Brioche

When I was a lad, it was considered polite for a man to give his seat to a woman, and for children to give their seats to adults. [that shows just how ancient I am!]

Then the women's movement came along. Some women said it was demeaning to be offered a seat, as it meant that the men thought the women were weak. 

After being abused by some women for doing the "right thing", most men stopped offering seats to women.

So now, generally speaking, whoever gets a seat on the bus, tram or train stays it. Occasionally, a seat will be offered to a person who is old, or unwell, or obviously pregnant.


----------



## mytwolangs

Sounds good if woman in question IS a "lady".


----------



## djchak

I second Brioche's post, as I went through the same thing. Dirty looks for opening doors and giving up my seat. After a while, I said "what the heck", I'll do it anyway, for anyone, not just women. If a guy looks like he's tired, or anyone who looks like they need it more than me, i'll ask the to take a seat, and hang out by the doors of the train, or stand on the bus by the doors.

Still get dirty looks from some women though.


----------



## Mei

Hi there,

This doesn't happend here. Sometimes people don't get up even if is an old women or an old man... so sad. 

Mei


----------



## Poetic Device

djchak said:
			
		

> I second Brioche's post, as I went through the same thing. Dirty looks for opening doors and giving up my seat. After a while, I said "what the heck", I'll do it anyway, for anyone, not just women. If a guy looks like he's tired, or anyone who looks like they need it more than me, i'll ask the to take a seat, and hang out by the doors of the train, or stand on the bus by the doors.
> 
> Still get dirty looks from some women though.


 
Good for you!  I think tht it is very nice and sweet if a gentleman gives his seat to anyone that looks like they need it more.  For that matter, I think that it is very admirable of anyone that does it.  I don't believe that men should be the only ones that have to be curteous.  Case in point:  if I see a man that does not look like he is in prime health I would most definately give him my seat.


----------



## Seana

Hello Little_Me,



			
				Little_Me said:
			
		

> (...) but the guy said the he just wouldn't be able to sit if a woman stands!


 
Yes of course he was right and his behaviour was nomal for me.

I am very surprised by your opinion because I am from Poland too and it is obvious for me that the man seeing  some woman standing nearly should stand up immediately. No matter how old he is and no matter how old woman is - maybe exceptional when the men is really old or disabled.
It is the main rule of good manners which should be ingrained to every young boy by his parents.
To be honest I travel by bus very rarely and for sure it could be met some men who don't do it but they should be seen as very rude or ill-breded men but I am sure that majority of men is polite and civilized and they know this rule very well.

Greetings


----------



## maxiogee

Brioche and I must be 'of an age' - socially if not calendrically. It is second nature to me. 
I have stood to vacate my seat for older people only to have it taken by some teenager.


----------



## Little_Me

Seana said:
			
		

> I am very surprised by your opinion because I am from Poland too and it is obvious for me that the man seeing  some woman standing nearly should stand up immediately.



Oh no, no! I totally agree with you Seana! I do think that politeness and good manners should make men get up ang give women their seats. That's what I was always told. I just wanted to say that from my, not so little experience ('cause I travel by bus and tram every day), it happens extremely rarely! Today was actually the first time that someone gave me his seat, that's the truth. I guess I'm very young and maybe men who are 30, 40 don't feel necessity to get up when seeing me standing? I don't know, but the fact is that nowadays men don't give their seats to 20-,30-year-old women...


----------



## french4beth

It used to be customary in the US, but less so... Personally, I hold the door for anyone, especially if their hands are full.  If I was on a bus and someone looked like they needed a seat more than I do (i.e. elderly, infirm, with children), I would offer the person my seat.  If I'm waiting in line at a cash register in a store, and if someone standing behind me has an unhappy child, I'll offer to let them go ahead of me... If there's only 1 register open (i.e. no express lane) and I have lots of stuff, I'll let someone go ahead of me if the person only has 1 or 2 items (and if I have the time).  

It's called _manners_ or _common courtesy_, at least the way I was brought up... and people _do_ appreciate it!


----------



## Little_Me

french4beth said:
			
		

> It's called _manners_ or _common courtesy_, at least the way I was brought up... and people _do_ appreciate it!



I have strange feeling that I was a bit misunderstood. Today I was surprised that this guy gave me his seat, 'cause it's not common and I've never been in such situation. But I was always taught, not only by my parents, that men should always offer their seats to women. And I do think it's the matter of manners and it should be taught by parents during bringing up. I am aware of these things, but during my whole life I've seen that men don't do it, so that's  the only reason why I was surprised and treated it as something unusual!
Maxiogee, believe or not, but not all teenagers wait only for chance to 'steal' a seat! But yes, unfortunatelly it sometimes happens...
Good manners, that is what is all about...


----------



## djchak

french4beth said:
			
		

> It's called _manners_ or _common courtesy_, at least the way I was brought up... and people _do_ appreciate it!



Some people appreciate it. Others consider it patronizing and sexist, as the person in question is being "held up on a pedestal", and "has to acknowledge thier  place". At least this was how it was explained to me by a few women.

Paying on the first date is also a touchy issue. You have to be careful.


----------



## vince

Seana said:
			
		

> Hello Little_Me,
> 
> Greetings



Assuming you are of good health and not carrying a heavy load, when you are sitting and you see a man enter the bus, are you polite and courteous enough to offer him your seat?

People often appreciate a woman with good manners, these rules  of etiquette should be taught to every young girl and boy.


----------



## Cereth

mm no mexicans have answered this yet.... well here i come..
not so many years ago in Mexico this was an implied rule, it didn´t matter if you were a pregnant or not men always leave the sit for the lady, nowadays this behavior is decreasing...i think it is a bittersweet situation...i don´t care if they don´t stand up for me because i am a healthy and young woman , but when i see seniors standing in a crowded bus i just leave them my sit if a guy does not do that but it is not so common ....
what stills being common is that men let women get on the bus first and when a guy breaks this "rule" other men say at him with an angry tone: "there are no gentlemen left"


----------



## betulina

Little_Me said:
			
		

> Oh no, no! I totally agree with you Seana! I do think that politeness and good manners should make men get up ang give women their seats.



Hi there!

It's probably a matter of culture. Nowadays it would never happen where I live. Actually, if that happened to me, I would find it embarrassing and even ridiculous and I would think what was wrong with the man...  To me, politeness between men and women is equal. I mean, I won't get up for him to sit, so I don't expect him to get up for me. 

Obviously, I'm talking about a situation in which both people are of the same age and physical conditions! But Mei is quite right when she says that it's hard to see somebody getting up to give the seat to an elderly or a pregnant woman (actually, what people do is to look away or to look at the others as they were decising telepathically who is getting up  ).

Cheers!


----------



## Hakro

I'd like to tell you two true stories from Helsinki trams.

A young woman steps in a tram an sees that all seat are occupied. So she says loudly:
"Please, give me a seat, I'm pregnant!"
A gentleman stands up but, looking at the very slim girl, he asks:
"Excuse me but... since when are you pregnant?"
"Since fifteen minutes!"

Another incident that happened a long time ago, in the twenties:

A young lady steps in a tram where all the seats are occupied. A gentleman says:
"Please, miss, you can sit on my knee."
"I never sit on the knee of a person that I don't know!"
"All right, miss, I can introduce myself: My name is Anderrsson, I'm the flutist in the symphony orchestra of the national radio company."
"Thank you, then it's OK" said the girl.
After a few blocks she asks:
"Didn't you say you're a flutist?"
"Oh yes, I am, and my name is Andersson!"
"Excuse me Mr. Andersson, but could you take your flute out of your pocket, it's quite hard to sit on it!"


----------



## chaim53

A few years ago I was visiting London with my wife and son, we were *tavell**ing* on the underground wich was obviously crowded as usual. me amd my family were lucky enough to get a seat, at one of the stops a middle age woman stepped into the car and I volunteered to yeald my seat to her. She was very surprised and said: *I thought those days were over and smiled!*


----------



## moirag

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> Sounds good if woman in question IS a "lady".


What is a lady, or "lady"?


----------



## Little_Me

betulina said:
			
		

> To me, politeness between men and women is equal. I mean, I won't get up for him to sit, so I don't expect him to get up for me.



I quite understand it. But it's not so simple in my case.
From one side I was always taught and my Dad used to always tell me that in that kind of situation men should always be polite and give their seats/let women get out from bus first/open door for her etc etc. That this is just obligatory.
But from the other side I think quite like you Betulina, because in general I don't like to be treated differently than men and I think women and men should be equal as far as social rules and laws are concerned.

But then I see in a tram sitting boy talking with his standing girlmate from school and I feel that something is really wrong here... It is confusing


----------



## Alundra

I think that the matter in Spain can be taken in two ways....

If you want to be polite and to have good manners, you will get up on the crowded bus (only to older ones, or pregnants) you will open the doors, and so on...

But if you are a young man, and you want to be polite with a young (and beautiful) woman.... At this moment you are a male-chauvinist... and then... many men aren't polite;

In my opinion, in Spain very much people confuse "machismo" with good manners.

Alundra.


----------



## Seana

Little_Me said:
			
		

> (...) But then I see in a tram sitting boy talking with his standing girlmate from school and I feel that something is really wrong here... It is confusing


 
Yeah you have just pointed it perfectly.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

That's an outdated and sexist custom so I vote NO  



			
				Alundra said:
			
		

> But if you are a young man, and you want to be polite with a young (and beautiful) woman.... At this moment you are a male-chauvinist... and then... many men aren't polite;
> 
> In my opinion, in Spain very much people confuse "machismo" with good manners.



So if I make an effort and give the seat I'm the bad guy and who takes advantage of this is the victim?


----------



## Alundra

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> That's an outdated and sexist custom so I vote NO
> 
> 
> 
> So if I make an effort and give the seat I'm the bad guy and who takes advantage of this is the victim?


 
What do you mean with "to make an effort"?  To get up? To open a door? Victim of what?  



Alundra.


----------



## Sallyb36

bill paying should be half half unless it has been previously agreed, a woman should never expect a man to pay for her unless it has been agreed previously.


----------



## Seana

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> That's an outdated and sexist custom so I vote NO




Oh, come on. Where will these opinions  lead us? Maybe even look like a girl or woman would  be ...outdated in short time. Don't you think that both our genders are  completly various. I do think that.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

Seana said:
			
		

> Oh, come on. Where will these opinions  lead us? Maybe even look like a girl or woman would  be ...outdated in short time. Don't you think that both our genders are  completly various. I do think that.



It's funny you focused in "outdated" instead of in "sexist". I guess that's right when you're the favoured part... I'd like to return home and find out that my woman had been working all day to treat me like a king even if I'd spent all day in a pub. That would be a lot like giving my seat with no reason but gender, wouldn't it?  

I'm sorry if someone thinks sarcasm is a very... _machista_ attitude.


----------



## badgrammar

Maybe the guy sitting and talking with his female classmate did offer the seat, but she said "No, I'm fine".  She is not required to accept the offer.

I would be very pleased by the offer from a man to give me his seat.  But unless I obviously needed it more than he (had a broken heel on my shoe or many packages, or a child in my arms, etc...), I would smile sweetly, thank him genuinely for his offer, and decline it.  

As per giving up seats in public transportation, I think we all just have to be aware of others around us, and if someone looks like they could really use a seat and we are sitting, we offer it to them.  

Off-topic:  Like Brioche, we were always taught that CHILDREN (being generally quite able-bodied and relentlessly eneretic) ALWAYS give up their seats to adults, they stand, sit on their parent's lap, and eventually on the floor (obviously not in the subway or bus).  

At an informal marriage I once attended, I saw the unthinkable:  The children were occupying about half of the chairs in the front rows, while adults gathered at the back, standing for the entire ceremony!  It's not the childrens' fault, can't blame them for trying.  But how could their parents be so ill-mannered?


----------



## cuchuflete

1- I feel no moral obligation to give up my seat to anyone because they are female.
2a- I often offer to give up my seat to someone who is female.
2b- I often offer to give up my seat to someone who is male.

3- I have the luxury of enough years to combine numbers one and two with no conflict or inner torment.  I am comfortable with the small courtesies my parents taught me, and I share them.  If a person of whatever sex takes offense at a small kindness, that is their business.  Those who teach young girls that they are entitled to deference based only on biology do their children no good service.


----------



## emma42

Now, who can argue with that?

In my home town, the buses are microcosms of polite society.  Not so much men giving up seats for women, but people of both sexes giving up seats for elderly passengers, people with children etc.  This is one of the reasons I like our buses.  People are polite and friendly and chatty (can you believe this is England?!)  Also, people always say "thank you" to the driver, but this is going off-topic.


----------



## Little_Me

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Maybe the guy sitting and talking with his female classmate did offer the seat, but she said "No, I'm fine".  She is not required to accept the offer.



I saw such situations few times, and at least once I saw it from the real beginning, when a group of laughing teenagers got in to the bus. I remember very well how the guy sat down and didn't even ask girls if any of them wanted to sit.
But I guess in this case it's only the matter of good manners.
Of course, woman doesn't have to accept man's offer, I remember my hesitation (not only caused by shock). But still, shouldn't he at least ask?
Greetings


----------



## charlyboy81

I do not want to seem pessimistic about good manners (I personally think I did have a good education for these matters) but I also think that he might have wanted to get your attention  . Pretty girls often get more attention than the rest, and anyone denying it is a liar.


----------



## Little_Me

charlyboy81 said:
			
		

> I do not want to seem pessimistic about good manners (I personally think I did have a good education for these matters) but I also think that he might have wanted to get your attention  . Pretty girls often get more attention than the rest, and anyone denying it is a liar.


 Impossible to deny!
Well well, what can I say! He might have wanted to get my attention, but why the heck he stood behind me when I sat?! Maybe he felt an unstoppable desire to 'watch' the back of my head, but he could just say something, right?

But anyway, I'm curious if you, Charlyboy (as an example of typical young man), would offer me (as an example of typical young woman) your seat in that kind of situation, if it wasn't connected with flirt of course? Would you?


----------



## sjofre

In Portugal we have the "obligation" to give seats to pregnant women and old people. Usually no one gives a sit to a woman, just because it's a woman, and sometimes people use to ignore, or pretend not to see, a pregnant woman or an old person. Anyway I don't agree with giving a seat to a woman just because it's a woman. That's a  sexist behaviour like if women were fragil and weak and could not be standing...


----------



## djchak

There is no easy answer for everything, the best thing to do is go with your gut instict. If you are a man however, prepare for the woman to be offended SOMETIMES.....it's all down to the individual.


----------



## emma42

Yes, it is "all down to the individual", so if you are a woman, prepare for the man to be offended sometimes. Don't just put the potential for offence on women's shoulders please.


----------



## chaim53

Ok Moirag, as you please, I apologize for the wrong choice of the term. Lady sounds better, thanks for your qualified intervention, Corrections are always welcome.
Ciao


----------



## djchak

emma42 said:
			
		

> Yes, it is "all down to the individual", so if you are a woman, prepare for the man to be offended sometimes. Don't just put the potential for offence on women's shoulders please.



Fair enough, although I disagree that this situation is as common.

Many men would be suprised if a woman gave up their seats for him.


----------



## geve

_"Should men get up in public transport when woman is standing?"_

From a logical point of view, if someone is willing to offer his/her seat to someone else, it's because they think this person deserves to sit down more than they themselves do.
And why do they think so?
1. Because it's someone they love and they are ready to give away their own comfort to make the person feel comfortable. 
2. Because they think the person needs it more than themselves. ie they think the other person is weaker, is less able to put up with the standing up than themselves.

Let's consider situation 2 only...
a. If the person is older, looks tired or sick, has a visible handicap, carries a heavy load, is with a young child... then I don't think the act of offering them a seat is debatable.
b. If the only sign of "weakness" is the gender of the person, then yes I understand that some would find it sexist.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

In France, especially in Marseilles (south of France) I often saw older men feeling offended when I offer to give them my seat in the bus... and all refused my proposal.
So now, I never offer them anymore. Those who are not shocked are only pregnant/with children/older women.
And as a woman, I don't expect from men to give me their seat. But if I know the man, it's a polite behaviour to ask me if I want his seat. And I politely refuse.  
But this behaviour could be a flirting means too... And guess what, Little Me? I think it was your case.


----------



## emma42

I have sometimes offered to give up my seat to elderly men, but I am very very careful when I do so, because I do not want to hurt their pride or diminish them. I have had my offers accepted.


----------



## Seana

Hello my Dears,
Am I really live in your world? I am afraid I am probably not. But I am not some prehistoric stuff, so why my opinions in female/male topic are still such controversial here. 
Where did you find any sexist behaviour that the man is well-mannered?
It is simlply part of their nature because males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It is only a sign of it. It is normal. At last this is wonderful men gallantry for us women. Why shoud we still try all subvert up- site- down?
Belive me or not but I can swear - each of my close male-friends never sits when I am standing. 
There are much more important and serious fields where we should find the "signs of sexist behaviours" but why do we find them just in the good manners.
Greetings


----------



## Little_Me

Seana said:
			
		

> There are much more important and serious fields where we should find the "signs of sexist behaviours" but why do we find them just in the good manners.
> Greetings


Not more to add, I absolutely agree with what Seana wrote. If sexism hadn't been mentioned by one of us, I would have never thought about it in this circumstances, in this case.

And I was really surprised by what Karine_Fr said about offering seat to elderly men, 'cause I did it many times and no one has ever refused! I've never seen even a shadow of offence on their faces and my offers were always extremely quickly accepted And I've never heard from my friends about similar reactions as you, Karine, mentioned. Maybe elderly gentlemen in France are more proud than Polish?

And yes, I finally give up and admit- I was naive thinking that this guy was good-mannered- 'cause he was simply devious! He had nasty intentions and surely wanted to seduce me! So I shouldn't have started this thread, but rather something like "What are the best and most effective ways to show a guy that I'm attracted to him too?"

Warm greetings,
Little_Me


----------



## buonasara

I'm from New York City, and I occasionally see the very polite gesture.  However, it's usually for the elderly or pregnant women, as you said.  However, once in a blue moon there is someone who will give up a seat as no more than a kind gesture.  He was probably just trying to look like a complete gentleman and impress you


----------



## Alundra

Seana said:
			
		

> Hello my Dears,
> Am I really live in your world? I am afraid I am probably not. But I am not some prehistoric stuff, so why my opinions in female/male topic are still such controversial here.
> Where did you find any sexist behaviour that the man is well-mannered?
> It is simlply part of their nature because males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It is only a sign of it. It is normal. At last this is wonderful men gallantry for us women. Why shoud we still try all subvert up- site- down?
> Belive me or not but I can swear - each of my close male-friends never sits when I am standing.
> There are much more important and serious fields where we should find the "signs of sexist behaviours" but why do we find them just in the good manners.
> Greetings


 
I totally agree.

My male-friends and the men in my family... give up their sits, too. I like when they open a door to me. 
And then... all together (men and women) clean the flat, the dishes and whatever. Sexism went away... 

I see good manners... not sexism. Alike, I get up when I see an older man, or pregnant, or I give up them my place in a row at the market. I think it is merely good manners.

If a man (known or unknown) gives up his sit to me... I never say him "no", so he does it because of politeness.

Alundra.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

Seana said:
			
		

> It is simlply part of their nature because males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It is only a sign of it. It is normal. At last this is wonderful men gallantry for us women. Why shoud we still try all subvert up- site- down?



It's simply part of women nature to take care of the kids and home while the man is hunting, so let's ban women right to work and let's set a curfew for them so we make sure they are always at home doing properly what they're expected to do. It should be normal, shouldn't it?


----------



## charlyboy81

Little_Me said:
			
		

> But anyway, I'm curious if you, Charlyboy (as an example of typical young man), would offer me (as an example of typical young woman) your seat in that kind of situation, if it wasn't connected with flirt of course? Would you?


 
Well, to be very honest, I do not think so  . Of course, if the girl is pregnant or has a handicap (like walking with crutches) and even if she does not look good  I will leave her my seat, no doubt about that. Apart from that, I can't help being nice to girls, especially if they are pretty  . So do you think I would leave you my seat lol?


----------



## Alundra

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> It's simply part of women nature to take care of the kids and home while the man is hunting, so let's ban women right to work and let's set a curfew for them so we make sure they are always at home doing properly what they're expected to do. It should be normal, shouldn't it?


 
Ouu... It's very hard to me when I read this post.

I don't work out, I WORK at home, take care of my kids... BUT my husband isn't hunting... HE WORKS with computers  .

We are civilized, we live in an actual society, we TAKE DECISIONS TOGETHER, BUT, we SHARE THE TASKS...

My husband isn't sexist... both of two know how hard are the tasks into the house.. and to take care of kids... It isn't an easy job...

So, my husband and me aren't in the caverns... each one has his/her job... 

And if my husband offer me a chair.... I smile to him... My pride isn't hurt at all.

Yo creo que la buena educación y la galantería no están reñidas con la igualdad the sexos... 

Ahh... And I could ensure you that there are many women who envy my situation.... and they would like to stay at home and take care to their own kids.... 


(Sorry the off-topic)  
Alundra.


----------



## Little_Me

charlyboy81 said:
			
		

> Well, to be very honest, I do not think so  . Of course, if the girl is pregnant or has a handicap (like walking with crutches) and even if she does not look good  I will leave her my seat, no doubt about that. Apart from that, I can't help being nice to girls, especially if they are pretty  . So do you think I would leave you my seat lol?



 Now you made me laughing Charly! Ha! Of course, that's what I thought!!
OMG, but I truly hope that when you say that you would offer your seat to a girl who "doesn't look good" you meant ill/ sick/ really depressed etc, not the one who looks bad because she's not pretty enough! 
And I'm afraid I can't answer your question after all you said. 'Cause if I say "Offfff cooooourse, you would offer me your seat!" that could mean two things: either I'm sending you quite clear signal that I'm really awesome and vain at the same time or that I'm handiccaped in any way! So it's much safer not to answer!

But I wouldn't be myself if I didn't say "I knew it!"
And really, that would be extremely difficult for me to believe if someone said that nowadays, in his/her country/place of living young men usually offer their seats young women only because of her gender! This times are definitely gone with a wind.


----------



## charlyboy81

Alundra said:
			
		

> Ouu... It's very hard to me when I read this post.
> 
> I don't work out, I WORK at home, take care of my kids... BUT my husband isn't hunting... HE WORKS with computers  .
> 
> We are civilized, we live in an actual society, we TAKE DECISIONS TOGETHER, BUT, we SHARE THE TASKS...
> 
> My husband isn't sexist... both of two know how hard are the tasks into the house.. and to take care of kids... It isn't an easy job...


 
Haha do not get mad so fast I think that Dr. Quiza weas being ironic in his reply  Or not  ?? I hope so hehe. My mum never worked OUT but she rose me and my sisters, and took care of the house. I know it IS a job, which takes a lot of energy and courage. But sometimes I kind of envy that situation, even though I am a guy.  Is that weird? Ok, end of off-topic


----------



## charlyboy81

> Now you made me laughing Charly! Ha! Of course, that's what I thought!!


 

hahaha you made me laugh too. Not vain nor handicaped I guess. Ok I was just being honest... But it is true that good looking girls have more advantages than others (and I guess the same goes for guys). Sad enough, but that is society nowadays. But uhm, this could go off topic, so let's stop here or open a new thread on the importance of physical appearance in society or something


----------



## Dr. Quizá

Alundra said:
			
		

> Ouu... It's very hard to me when I read this post.
> 
> I don't work out, I WORK at home, take care of my kids... BUT my husband isn't hunting... HE WORKS with computers  .
> 
> We are civilized, we live in an actual society, we TAKE DECISIONS TOGETHER, BUT, we SHARE THE TASKS...
> 
> My husband isn't sexist... both of two know how hard are the tasks into the house.. and to take care of kids... It isn't an easy job...
> 
> So, my husband and me aren't in the caverns... each one has his/her job...
> 
> And if my husband offer me a chair.... I smile to him... My pride isn't hurt at all.
> 
> Yo creo que la buena educación y la galantería no están reñidas con la igualdad the sexos...
> 
> Ahh... And I could ensure you that there are many women who envy my situation.... and they would like to stay at home and take care to their own kids....
> 
> 
> (Sorry the off-topic)
> Alundra.



Note the word "right". And your case isn't a matter of politeness or social pressure (and you don't live under a curfew) but your choice on how to handle your duties, isn't it? Also check in the spreadable (?) emoticon list the name of this one:


----------



## geve

Seana said:
			
		

> Hello my Dears,
> Am I really live in your world? I am afraid I am probably not. But I am not some prehistoric stuff, so why my opinions in female/male topic are still such controversial here.
> Where did you find any sexist behaviour that the man is well-mannered?
> It is simlply part of their nature because males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It is only a sign of it. It is normal. At last this is wonderful men gallantry for us women. Why shoud we still try all subvert up- site- down?
> Belive me or not but I can swear - each of my close male-friends never sits when I am standing.
> There are much more important and serious fields where we should find the "signs of sexist behaviours" but why do we find them just in the good manners.
> Greetings


But then that would correspond to my situation 1: they're not complete strangers. It's a matter of civility between friends, I think it's quite different.
Actually, if I travel with friends - be they male or female - and there aren't enough seats available, we would probably _all _enquire if someone wants to sit down. I don't see why a male friend wouldn't have the right to feel more tired than I do. I grant you that culturally, the women will take the seat if no one feels 'weaker' (or we might swap at mid-course if it's a long ride).


----------



## ukuca

In Turkey people often leave their seats to old and pregnant persons. But in general as I observed, girls almost never do that. Sometimes young people get up in the busses when they see a lady without seat, but it's not common (I never do this one because I believe it's not necessary).


----------



## Thomas1

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Brioche and I must be 'of an age' - socially if not calendrically. It is second nature to me.
> I have stood to vacate my seat for older people only to have it taken by some teenager.


 
I’d like to point out a similar thing but from a different angle. The other day when I and my mum were traveling in Warsaw we got on a tram and there was a free seat so my mum was about to take it and than, suddenly, an old lady dashed in and without saying anything pushed my mum who was just trying to sit, almost tipping her down, of course she took her seat. I’m sure my mum would offer her this seat if she had been given a chance to see this woman. I don’t try to defend teenagers since there’s a lot of truth in what you’ve wrote, maxiogee, but for God’s sake such behavior of the elderly makes me sick!    
I still do stand to vacate my seat to someone who needs it more than me and I find it very natural.


----------



## timpeac

I would always hold a door for someone behind me, man or woman, or allow them to go first they have one item and I have lots of shopping, or offer my seat if they looked old or tired or ill. However, I would feel no compunction to offer my seat to someone just because they are female. Not through lack of manners but because I find that really condescending. Those very "manners" are the same as those which mean that in business, for example, men ask other men to play golf and so business deals are made and elsewhere woman continue to be considerably underrepresented and underpaid etc. Why would a man pay for both meals on a date? Because in the past he probably earned 4 times as much as the woman!

We live in a world where everyone deserves equal respect and treatment - I vote for nice treatment for all!


----------



## Angel Rubio

I don´t travel much by public transportation so I don´t have this problems anymore.

In the few occasions I travel by bus, train, tramway or metro and the ride takes less than two hours which is almost always the case, I never take a seat regardless of the number of seats available. I´m still young and fit and I only rest at nights.

I don´t understand why is it so important if it is oldfashioned, sexist, or educated to offer a seat. A man/woman is in his/her right to kindly offer a seat to other passenger just because he feels it right. The person who is offered a seat is also in his/her right to kindy refuse the offer just because he doesn´t share the perception of the other about his own weakness or dissability.

Also a person who really needs a seat can simply, and without embarrassment ask for it. In most of the cases he/she will receive it.

And everything can be done, in all the cases with good manners. 

Last week, in Antwerpen (Belgium) a man was beaten to death by a group of vandals just because he ask them to not to be so noisy.

I think won´t be bad to be extraordinarily gentle, caring and respectful to each other when using public transportation.

Just to compensate.

Angel Rubio


----------



## maxiogee

I was on a bus this morning.
An elderly (in relation to my age!) woman boarded the bus.
A woman of about my age stood and offered this woman her seat. The woman declined and said something I didn't catch to the younger woman. She then indicated that her male partner would take the seat. He did. This brought a look of some unhappiness to the face of the younger woman.

background:
People living in Ireland, and in receipt of the state Old Age Pension, are entitled to free travel on public transport here. They have been known to, shall we say, overuse this privilege, travelling one stop and getting off again.

The younger woman then had to shuffle down the bus as more people boarded, and she was standing beside me when the elderly couple got off having travelled two stops, and the seat she had been occupying was taken by a 20-something.
She said a very rude word _sotto voce_! 

I laughed out loud, unfortunately, as I thought of this thread. I was treated to one of Paddington Bear's "hard stares".


----------



## Poetic Device

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> It's funny you focused in "outdated" instead of in "sexist". I guess that's right when you're the favoured part... I'd like to return home and find out that my woman had been working all day to treat me like a king even if I'd spent all day in a pub. That would be a lot like giving my seat with no reason but gender, wouldn't it?
> 
> I'm sorry if someone thinks sarcasm is a very... _machista_ attitude.


 
Quite the contarary.  The latter of the two (a man givin a seat for a woman) is out of common courtesy and kindness.  it is a scientifically proven fact that most female bodies cannot endure as much physical labour or stress as a man's can (unless of course you are refering to childbearring.  I would LOVE to see a man do that!   )


----------



## maxiogee

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> … most female bodies cannot endure as much physical labour or stress as a man's can …



I don't see how that bears on standing on a bus - we're unlikely to be talking about someone standing on some cross country (any country) journey!


----------



## timpeac

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> it is a scientifically proven fact that most female bodies cannot endure as much physical labour or stress as a man's can


Wow! They run a mean bus in New Jersey!


----------



## Little_Me

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> I’d like to point out a similar thing but from a different angle. The other day when I and my mum were traveling in Warsaw we got on a tram and there was a free seat so my mum was about to take it and than, suddenly, an old lady dashed in and without saying anything pushed my mum who was just trying to sit, almost tipping her down, of course she took her seat. I’m sure my mum would offer her this seat if she had been given a chance to see this woman. I don’t try to defend teenagers since there’s a lot of truth in what you’ve wrote, maxiogee, but for God’s sake such behavior of the elderly makes me sick!
> I still do stand to vacate my seat to someone who needs it more than me and I find it very natural.



That's nice that you mentioned about it Thomas, 'cause I had no courage... That happened to me and my friends few times and I also heard about it from other young people.

Personally I think that offering seat to eldery people is something we should do, but have right not to do it, beacuse we don't have to- we might be accused of lack of good manners but it's our risk. And elderly people should remember about it!

I had very unpleasant situation few months ago:* I was sitting in a tram and was reading a book (really amazing one) and I was really 'into' it. I didn't notice a woman who stood next to me, about 55-60. And then I heard something like (said very loudly!) " Ohh, what times we have and what terrible youth! Now they even pretend that they're reading only not to stand up and give a seat!" Well, hmm, I was just speechless... Unfortunatelly I'm not so assertive person, so I just stood up with red cheeks, mumbled "I'm really sorry..." or so and simply got out at the next tram stop...
*
So yes, not only teenagers don't know how to behave...


----------



## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I don't see how that bears on standing on a bus - we're unlikely to be talking about someone standing on some cross country (any country) journey!


 
Okay, I was being a dork and I'm not too sure that I took the right avenue on this one....  Basically, what I meant about the stress part was, depending on how long the trip is, women are less likely to be able to stand for a long period of time.  You also have to take into consideration the weight of the person and such and also take into consid3eration how tired the individual is.  Case in point, I am a very small boned woman (no more than 125 lbs.) and I went into NYC a few months ago with a friend of mine.  We went into the subways and took a train to get to Greenwich Village.  I was exceptionally tired and no one offered me a seat.  Long story short I wound up passin out while standing up in the arm pit of a total stranger.  If someone took into consideratin that I was just so exhausted and there was no way around that fact then that incident would never had happened.  Am I being a dork again???


----------



## french4beth

poetic device, no, you weren't being a dork, you were _surrounded_ by them... as many posters in this thread have mentioned, it all boils down to common courtesy - if you see that someone might need a seat more than you do, and you're physically able to stand, why not offer your seat?  I'll bet your fellow passengers were horrified when you passed out; also, someone who is very young and appears to be physically fit could be having a rough day (like you were), or could have a serious health problem; someone who appears to be elderly or infirm may be in better health than everyone else.  

In my opinion, if you're concentrating on something (as poor Littleme was), it's very rude for people to make comments (such as that dorky woman did on the tram) when Littleme didn't do anything wrong.


----------



## maxiogee

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Case in point, I am a very small boned woman (no more than 125 lbs.) and I went into NYC a few months ago with a friend of mine.  We went into the subways and took a train to get to Greenwich Village.  I was exceptionally tired and no one offered me a seat.  Long story short I wound up passin out while standing up in the arm pit of a total stranger.  If someone took into consideratin that I was just so exhausted and there was no way around that fact then that incident would never had happened.  Am I being a dork again???



No offence PoeDev, but I'm not sure.   

Did you look unwell?
Did you ask anyone for a seat?
Matthew 7:7


----------



## Bettie

My dad is almost seventy years old and he still gets up to give his seat to any woman, young or old.


----------



## tonyray

I will give my seat to an elderly woman or a pregnant woman every time, but if the girl is a teenager or in her 20's, I'll stay in my seat.


----------



## emma42

Actually, poeticdevice, your science is a little out of kilter. It is actually a "well-known scientific fact" that women _are_ better able to bear stress and physical pressure over a period of time than men. Men are better able to perform in short spurts of activity.

Your example has nothing to do with the fact that you are female. And I am sure that you are not a "dork" (!)

If a man of over seventy offered me his seat on the bus, I would not want to take it, but neither would I want to offend him, as I would have regard to the customs of his generation; I would react differently if a young man offered me a seat. In that instance, I would stamp on his foot and give him a choice rendition of "Wives and Lovers" by Jack Jones.


----------



## Bettie

emma42 said:
			
		

> Actually, poeticdevice, your science is a little out of kilter. It is actually a "well-known scientific fact" that women _are_ better able to bear stress and physical pressure over a period of time than men. Men are better able to perform in short spurts of activity.
> 
> Your example has nothing to do with the fact that you are female. And I am sure that you are not a "dork" (!)
> 
> If a man of over seventy offered me his seat on the bus, I would not want to take it, but neither would I want to offend him, as I would have regard to the customs of his generation; I would react differently if a young man offered me a seat. In that instance, I would stamp on his foot and give him a choice rendition of "Wives and Lovers" by Jack Jones.


 
For me it's hard because he wants to give me his seat sometimes and I feel bad to take it, but as you say he can get offended if I don't!!!


----------



## emma42

Yes, I suppose you have to deal with each case individually.  If you smile, it usually helps things, whatever the decision.


----------



## maxiogee

emma42 said:
			
		

> Yes, I suppose you have to deal with each case individually.  If you smile, it usually helps things, whatever the decision.



You're going off topic - you're dealing with the whole of life in that statement!


----------



## a_catarina

Hi everybody!
I think that in Portugal the situation is similar to most countries. Many years ago it was normal and almost compulsory for a men to give his seat to a woman, if he didn't do that he would be seen as a very rude an uneducated man. Nowadays, I don't see that happening much. People still give their seats to preagnant women or to old and disabled people, but I have seen people not doing it a lot of times. Actually, I was sitting in the back of a crowded bus one time and at the front there was a pregnant woman with a huge (and heavy, I suppose) belly standing, and no one near her gave her their seat. I was too far from her but I felt embarassed.


----------



## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> No offence PoeDev, but I'm not sure.
> 
> Did you look unwell?
> Did you ask anyone for a seat?
> Matthew 7:7


 
No offense taken.  As far as my looks go, I was very drawn out looking (and that does not help since I'm as pale as a ghost on a normal day--It's the Irish/English in me) and before I got on the train I had to take my inhalers (asthma).  As far as asking for a seat goes, lol, my friend and I was too scared to because it was our second time in the city and first time in a subway.  We were too scared to breathe let alone ask someone if we could have a seat.  Oh, and the guy that I fell asleep in his armpit was following us around for at least three hours afterwards trying to get me to go on a date with him.  Yeah, what's there not to be scared about in a subway?  lol


----------



## la reine victoria

> *Emma42*
> I would react differently if a young man offered me a seat. In that instance, I would stamp on his foot and give him a choice rendition of "Wives and Lovers" by Jack Jones.


 
 
I wouldn't.  I'd give him my 'phone number.





LRV


----------



## Sallyb36

I'd smile, say thankyou and take his seat


----------



## geve

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> No offense taken. As far as my looks go, I was very drawn out looking (and that does not help since I'm as pale as a ghost on a normal day--It's the Irish/English in me) and before I got on the train I had to take my inhalers (asthma). As far as asking for a seat goes, lol, my friend and I was too scared to because it was our second time in the city and first time in a subway. We were too scared to breathe let alone ask someone if we could have a seat. Oh, and the guy that I fell asleep in his armpit was following us around for at least three hours afterwards trying to get me to go on a date with him. Yeah, what's there not to be scared about in a subway? lol


Yes, I've noticed too that fainting in someone's arms is a good way to make friends with them  (either that, or it scares them away!)

I would say that in the situation you described, the problem is that in order to notice that someone really needs a seat, we would need to pay attention. But many people read, sleep, look outside the window or just don't give a sh...
But I think this is a bit outside the scope of this thread actually: Little Me asked "Should men get up in public transport when woman is standing???"
No indication that the woman is feeling feeble here.  And you didn't feel you ought to have a seat because you were a woman; but because you were feeling tired. Women aren't tired all the time.


----------



## la reine victoria

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> I'd smile, say thankyou and take his seat


 


Exactly the right thing to do Sally.  The "feminist movement" has a lot to answer for.  Many men, nowadays, having been insulted by females to whom they've offered a seat, are "scared" to do so again for fear of what might be said to them.

I appreciate all the courtesies extended to me by men.  At the same time I will gladly give up my seat to anyone, younger or older, who looks to be more in need of it than I am.

Let's revive "old-fashioned" gallantry amongst our men folk - I love it!




LRV


----------



## Sallyb36

I do too, and have instilled it in my sons.  I would also offer my seat to anyone who looked as if they needed it more than me.


----------



## Poetic Device

So, can we all agree that offering the seat depends on whether or not the woman (or individual for that matter) looks like she needs it?  I don't know, to a point I still think that women should be offered it anyway unless the man has a broken ligament or something.  Maybe I'm just dorky.


----------



## geve

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> So, can we all agree that offering the seat depends on whether or not the woman (or individual for that matter) looks like she needs it? I don't know, to a point I still think that women should be offered it anyway unless the man has a broken ligament or something. Maybe I'm just dorky.


My opinion is that men _shouldn't_ offer their seat to women; but they _can_. It won't disturb me if they do!


----------



## la reine victoria

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> So, can we all agree that offering the seat depends on whether or not the woman (or individual for that matter) looks like she needs it? I don't know, to a point I still think that women should be offered it anyway unless the man has a broken ligament or something. Maybe I'm just dorky.


 



You're not dorky PD. You appear to be a very polite person.


Edit:  Post changed.  Gender mistake.  So sorry PD.




LRV


----------



## brian

I go to school in Chicago, IL, where the public transportation (the "El," or "elevated train" system...a mostly-above-ground subway) is excellent.  Thus, many many people of all social and economic classes use it, including college kids, business commuters, the homeless, and everyone in between.

I ride the El a lot and the most common thing I notice is that _so many_ people are constantly reading, especially at high-traffic commuting times.  It's quite a phenomenon.

So the impression I always get is that everyone tends to occupy themselves (mostly with books), and the atmosphere is hardly social.  Everyone keeps to himself.  It seems as if "we're all here to use this train to get where we're going, and let's keep it at that."

I have seen people give up seats, but it's not too common.  This isn't necessarily because people are unwilling, but rather, it seems that the trains are always either _completely_ packed (in which case there really is no room for anyone to get up and trade places), or it's mostly empty (in which case everyone has an open seat for his choosing).

We do have frequent announcements over the intercom about giving up seats to the elderly and pregnant.  So at least the thought is there 


Brian


----------



## timpeac

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Exactly the right thing to do Sally. The "feminist movement" has a lot to answer for. Many men, nowadays, having been insulted by females to whom they've offered a seat, are "scared" to do so again for fear of what might be said to them.
> 
> I appreciate all the courtesies extended to me by men. At the same time I will gladly give up my seat to anyone, younger or older, who looks to be more in need of it than I am.
> 
> Let's revive "old-fashioned" gallantry amongst our men folk - I love it! LRV


I really fear you may be underestimating how much this "old-fashioned gallantry" is linked with more pernicious forms of sexism, because of course ultimately acting a certain way simply because of someone's sex is sexism. As long as such habits which serve to enforce the idea that women are in some way weaker, less able, than men (no matter the good intentions) survive I don't think women are generally being helped.

Would you rather sit on the bus as your partner stands and have him open the restaurant door, choose your meal and pay for it or would you rather earn the same amount of money as him for the same work and pay for your own meal and a taxi home as well if you're too tired to stand on the bus?


----------



## maxiogee

The problem with men being _expected_ or _required_ to give up their seat (or even being browbeaten into it) is that there are times when I would choose not to render my seat. I have had foot problems, and an occasional visitation of arthritis in one knee. There are days I need the seat I'm using. I wouldn't always wish to declare aloud that I am an unwell.  

The buses in Dublin (and some trains) have signs near the seats close to the doors saying "Please give up this seat if an elderly or handicapped person needs it." - no mention of "more than you do!"


----------



## vince

timpeac said:
			
		

> acting a certain way simply because of someone's sex is sexism. As long as such habits which serve to enforce the idea that women are in some way weaker, less able, than men (no matter the good intentions) survive I don't think women are generally being helped.



<sarcasm> no it's not sexism, it's called being polite. Who wouldn't appreciate the kindness of being offered a seat? How well-raised a man is who offers a member of the weaker sex a seat.</sarcasm>

Some people do not realize that differential treatment of other people based SOLELY on their sex is by definition, sexism. If you feel that men with manners should offer you a seat because you are a woman, then you are sexist. Go ahead and feel all happy that someone gave up their seat for you, but remember that your appreciation of these acts only solidifies the image of women as delicate and something to be protected.


----------



## badgrammar

I think you guys should offer us the damn seats because we let you watch all the games in the Fifa World Cup every four years...  And because you have to make it up to us for our having to do the one thing no man will never have to do:  Carry and bear children.  It's like global compensation.  Nothing any man, even one whose heart is made of gold, can do to relieve us from bearing that burden, atleast he can offer us a seat!

I'd say thank you to anyone offering me a seat, whether I accept it or not depends on a number of things.  In no case would I take offence.


----------



## klbyrd

I think it is a matter on manners and common courtesy. I have also taught my son to open doors, pull out chairs, carry things, and anything else I have been able to torture him with.  I was raised to show have respect for others and believe it is the mark of a gentleman, even being a woman I will do the same for elderly people or pregnant women. The respect you show to others will be returned.          klbyrd


----------



## maxiogee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> I think you guys should offer us the damn seats because we let you watch all the games in the Fifa World Cup every four years...


That argument is invalid. The football watching (by those who do it!) is more than compensated for by the hours we spend watching you try on every garment in the shop… and then trying them again with a different pair of shoes!  





> And because you have to make it up to us for our having to do the one thing no man will never have to do:  Carry and bear children.


Like you don't wish to do this, like we foist children on you unbidden.  
Like you have never instigated the manoeuvrings required to initiate the process!  
You may stop now if you wish.


----------



## vince

klbyrd said:
			
		

> I think it is a matter on manners and common courtesy. I have also taught my son to open doors, pull out chairs, carry things, and anything else I have been able to torture him with.  I was raised to show have respect for others and believe it is the mark of a gentleman, even being a woman I will do the same for elderly people or pregnant women. The respect you show to others will be returned.          klbyrd



I agree with everything you said

But the issue is *should men get up in public transport when woman is standing?*
not: *should people get up in public transport when another person is standing?

*For the latter question, I respond: yes to be polite to people in general, especially when the person is not in good physical health or is weak.

For the former: Definitely not, unless it is in the context of my answer to the first.


----------



## brian

vince said:
			
		

> I agree with everything you said
> 
> But the issue is *should men get up in public transport when woman is standing?*
> not: *should people get up in public transport when another person is standing?
> 
> *For the latter question, I respond: yes to be polite to people in general, especially when the person is not in good physical health or is weak.
> 
> For the former: Definitely not, unless it is in the context of my answer to the first.


It seems that, for the most part, the people who think it offensive to offer a woman their seat are the same ones who themselves would take offense at being offered a seat; and that the people who think it common courtesy to offer a woman their seat are the ones who would find it a great courtesy to be offered a seat.

If you offer a seat to someone in the first group, you're offending that person.  If you don't offer a seat to someone in the second group, you're probably offending that person.

In any case (and this goes for _many_ more situations than just offering seats to women), we all will offend someone somewhere when it comes to social customs/circumstances.   I say just do what you would like to be done to you (the Golden Rule, eh?) and hope for the best.  You can't please everyone.


Brian


----------



## badgrammar

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Like you don't wish to do this, like we foist children on you unbidden.
> Like you have never instigated the manoeuvrings required to initiate the process!
> You may stop now if you wish.



Point taken, for garment trying-on, I cannot deny it.   But while it's true that us women folk do have a tendency to want to have kids, sooner or later, even  the best-intentioned man cannot do the job in his wife's place.  And pregnancy and child birth (and a lot of nursing, for many) far outweigh bedrooms strewn with clothes and shoes, carrying the really heavy stuff, and, yes, offering a seat!!!

Humor intended here, of course (except for the World Cup thing)...


----------



## maxiogee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Humor intended here, of course (except for the World Cup thing)...



I bet you've seen more of it than I.
I have yet to see a ball kicked. And that isn't because Ireland aren't there. I don't watch them either.

  Before offering a woman my seat, I always flush and put the lid down, does that get me any marks for consideration!


----------



## emma42

I appear to have stumbled, blinking, into 1953.

Why does a young woman of 21 think she _should _be offered a seat by a man for no other reason than chromosonal differences?

Why does another woman appear to think that men should "damn" well give up their seats because they like watching the World Cup? _ I _like watching the World Cup, do not _have _to have children and would not dream of trying on every garment in the shop (thank you, Tony).

I will now return to 2006 in the hope that I may find the strength to stand on a bus for 10 minutes without swooning.

By the way, brian8733 - love the Golden Rule.


----------



## timpeac

emma42 said:
			
		

> I appear to have stumbled, blinking, into 1953.
> 
> Why does a young woman of 21 think she _should _be offered a seat by a man for no other reason than chromosonal differences?
> 
> Why does another woman appear to think that men should "damn" well give up their seats because they like watching the World Cup? _I _like watching the World Cup, do not _have _to have children and would not dream of trying on every garment in the shop (thank you, Tony).
> 
> I will now return to 2006 in the hope that I may find the strength to stand on a bus for 10 minutes without swooning.
> 
> By the way, brian8733 - love the Golden Rule.


Shut up and make me a cup of tea. Women having opinions! Whatever next!


----------



## maxiogee

timpeac said:
			
		

> Women having opinions! Whatever next!



THIS 
Don't hit me!


----------



## Seana

klbyrd said:
			
		

> I think it is a matter on manners and common courtesy. I have also taught my son to open doors, pull out chairs, carry things, and anything else I have been able to torture him with. I was raised to show have respect for others and believe it is the mark of a gentleman, (...)


 
 That is right. I am very glad there are a few similar related opinions on this thread 
Unisex it rather pitiful for me. Every man should try to be a gentelman. When the woman is female and man is really male everything in this world is charming. Personality traits are very important in interpersonal relations. Salary, career, succes very often have conection with it. According my observation just those ladies who are very female, delicate and soft and male men much more often are treated more favourable by... let's call it "fate".
But it is only my opinion.
Seana


----------



## Alundra

emma42 said:
			
		

> Why does a young woman of 21 think she _should _be offered a seat by a man for no other reason than chromosonal differences?


 
I think the young woman don't think like this... but if she is offered... why don't? What is wrong? 

The fact that my husband or whoever offers me a seat, doesn't mean I have to be his slave (it was in the past, another century... I think now we are in 2006) ... It is a politeness gesture, nothing else.... 

I think is unnecessary to scorn a good manner gesture to prove the gender equality. All know how equal we are... 

IMHO, the good manners make the live more comfortable... Don't let they disappear by our prejudices. 

Alundra.


----------



## badgrammar

Emma, 

Being a great fan of British humor, I am quite perplexed as to how any attempt at humor on my part totally escapes you.  It's a joke.  Haha.  I know it may not be on par with the Monty Python, but it was extremely sarcastic on my part to have written what I did.  I presume the same for Tony's response...  although who can be sure?  You Ukies are a wiley bunch, aren't you then? 



			
				emma42 said:
			
		

> Why does another woman appear to think that men should "damn" well give up their seats because they like watching the World Cup? _ I _like watching the World Cup, do not _have _to have children and would not dream of trying on every garment in the shop (thank you, Tony).
> 
> I will now return to 2006 in the hope that I may find the strength to stand on a bus for 10 minutes without swooning.
> 
> By the way, brian8733 - love the Golden Rule.


----------



## maxiogee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> I presume the same for Tony's response...  although who can be sure?  You Ukies are a wiley bunch, aren't you then?



Ah now, badgrammar, there _is_ such a thing as taking a joke too far!  

I may be many things - in fact I certainly am, and some of them I try to hide - but I feel a certain sense of "inclusion" there when you mention me, express doubts about me and then say "You Ukies" - I'll have you know, chere amie de mon coeur,  that wars have started over less! *Vive l'Irlande - Bob Geldof  , Bono  , Stephen Roche  , Sinead O'Connor  !*


----------



## badgrammar

Oh my, but you're right, very sorry, that was a big mistake on my part, mea culpa.  I take it back!   You're no Ukie, it is true.

When Irish eyes are smiling...

(Mods feel free to delete totally gratuitous chatty post here)


----------



## dahut

No, they shoudn't.

Out of good-manners, it works both ways. I mean from men to women and from women to men 

I was brought up to get up and give my seat to elder people.
So, when I was a teenanger and got up and ask an elder man to take my seat, he would refuse  Nobody explained to me that, since I am female, I was not expected to give it to men 
 Nowadays I get shock in a daily base when I realize that there's no such thing as 100% of gender equality in society 

There is ONE thing that really irratates me, what about "thank you".
We are supposed to give our seat since we are civilized, good-mannered people and all that jazz, but what about the people who get the seat?
I do believe they should say "thank you" each time they accept to take that offered seat, since we are NOT obliged to give it away.

Manners shouldn't be out-fashioned, they should just be updated.


----------



## vince

Could the anti-feminists explain this situation, why they consider it polite for a man to give his seat to a woman, but it is not so polite for a man to be offered a seat by a woman?


----------



## badgrammar

vince said:
			
		

> Could the anti-feminists explain this situation, why they consider it polite for a man to give his seat to a woman, but it is not so polite for a man to be offered a seat by a woman?



All who'd like to be labelled as anti-feminists, please respond...


----------



## la reine victoria

vince said:
			
		

> Could the anti-feminists explain this situation, why they consider it polite for a man to give his seat to a woman, but it is not so polite for a man to be offered a seat by a woman?


 


I will happily offer my seat to a man/woman/child who looks as though he/she needs it more than I do. My offers have always been gratefully accepted.

However, where I live, if I were to offer my seat to an able-bodied, fit, healthy-looking man I would be regarded as very odd indeed. It is simply not the done thing, old bean.  English etiquette and all that.





LRV
Anti-feminist
and proud of it.

I, who can swing a pick axe like a navvy
when doing my archaeological work.


----------



## Angel Rubio

timpeac said:
			
		

> Would you rather sit on the bus as your partner stands and have him open the restaurant door, choose your meal and pay for it or would you rather earn the same amount of money as him for the same work and pay for your own meal and a taxi home as well if you're too tired to stand on the bus?


 
My wife makes 20 times what I make and she expects me to stands so that she can sit, choose her meal and pay for it, open the restaurant door and help her with putting her coat on.

As an answer to you question I think most of women will prefere to have both. 

Most of women I know make more money that I do, so It´s hard for me to understand what are you talking about.

And yes, I still react differently in the same situation according to the gender of the person involved, and probably you too.


----------



## tigretoro

iam hindian and i fell it is obvious that men get up ,in india they would climb and sit on the roof for a ladie to sit ,,,,and there are seats reserved for women in a bus


----------



## emma42

Are we to take badgrammar's response as an affirmative, or does she need to check with her husband?


----------



## emma42

Welcome to the Forum, tigretoro!  It sounds as though you have some of the same traditions in India as here in England.


----------



## tigretoro

emma42 said:
			
		

> Welcome to the Forum, tigretoro! It sounds as though you have some of the same traditions in India as here in England.


  well i feel this is what india taught england in 200 years of the british in india


----------



## cuchuflete

The simplest, most direct comment I've stumbled across in this thread, as I attempted to reach a standing position on the swaying train:



> ...we are NOT obliged to give it away.


 Thank you, Dahut!

 *Should* is the first word of the question.  The answer is no.
I often choose to.  Not because I should.  I do it for the most thoroughly selfish of reasons: It makes me feel good to be kind to a fellow human.  

I don't do it because the person to whom I offer my seat had the good or bad fortune to be born with distinct bodily gear. I don't ask their views on feminism prior to standing up.  If a man or woman prefers ideology to courtesy, that's their right, and I may resume sitting.  If a woman assumes that she has more right to a seat than I do, by dint of biological happenstance, and commits the further idiocy of extending that false assumption to a pronouncement on the suitability of my manners, I can only wish her an attack of enlightenment and a prolonged stay at a Republican or Tory social event, where she may remain seated, cattily inspecting the attire of her female companions, while the men tell lies to one another.


----------



## emma42

Sorry, tigretoro, but those kinds of traditions were in England long before the British went to India and, no doubt vice versa.


----------



## emma42

Cuchuflete, I could not have put it better myself.  De acuerdo.


----------



## maxiogee

Do those who claim that men should offer them their seat not realise that this feeds the mentality of idiot males who patronise and abuse women, having been led to see them as lesser beings?
Do they not further realise tha these are the same men (and some women) who, when reading of a sexual assault on a woman, believe that the volume and style of clothing she was wearing at the time may have played some significant part in the incident?


OT bit


			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I, who can swing a pick axe like a navvy
> when doing my archaeological work.



Is that not otherwise known as *Vandalising an ASAI*?


----------



## badgrammar

Whoa, there, Maxi, read your post again, especially the part about how men who offer women seats are the same ones who believe that the way a woman dresses is a cause of rape.

Are you sure you stand behind this assertion?  

Really?  



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Do those who claim that men should offer them their seat not realise that this feeds the mentality of idiot males who patronise and abuse women, having been led to see them as lesser beings?
> Do they not further realise tha these are the same men (and some women) who, when reading of a sexual assault on a woman, believe that the volume and style of clothing she was wearing at the time may have played some significant part in the incident?
> 
> 
> OT bit
> 
> 
> Is that not otherwise known as *Vandalising an ASAI*?


----------



## timpeac

Badgrammar - you've undoubtedly caught Maxiogee out in an overgeneralisation but I see the point he is making. We can keep these sex-based distinctions if we like - but in keeping those which are nice I think that those which cause problems for women too will always be interlinked.

I wish that those who saw such offers as a pure matter of good manners would extend such consideration to all human beings. If I were to get on to a bus with a male friend and a female friend and there were one seat if I felt tired I would say "do you mind if...." and if I felt fine I would say "please go ahead...". For heavens's sake I think that this thread has a hint of the middle ages about it.


----------



## Poetic Device

I have been re-reading this thread, and I think that I am goingto semi-retract everything that I have said (sorry for the air-headedness ).  Basically, the way that I feel about it is that simple cliche:  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Is that so hard to do in this day and age?


----------



## timpeac

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Basically, the way that I feel about it is that simple cliche: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Is that so hard to do in this day and age?


You've summed up my feelings on the issue. If you only act polite to someone because they are female, is that really such a compliment?


----------



## maxiogee

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Whoa, there, Maxi, read your post again, especially the part about how men who offer women seats are the same ones who believe that the way a woman dresses is a cause of rape.
> 
> Are you sure you stand behind this assertion?
> 
> Really?



That is not what I wrote.   
I will highlight the important parts of what I wrote: "Do *those who claim* that men *should* offer them their seat not realise that *this feeds the mentality* of idiot males".

My "target" is those who make the claim that it is something which men should do, because women are women - not those who claim that anyone should offer their seat to anyone else. This claim is a one-way, sexually discriminatory one.
My "charge" to that target is that their attitude feeds a certain mentality - that that women are lesser beings.

Yes, I still stand by what I said, but not by how you interpreted what I said.


----------



## shaloo

Hi Tigretoro!
Welcome to the forums.... 

And yes....in India, there are seats reserved for women and if it happens that an able man takes a seat when a woman is standing in a bus, she has every right to politely ask him to vacate(which I personally never did till date).

But in the same fashion, there are seats reserved for senior citizens and physically handicapped people also...So sometimes I feel "are reservations really necessary for women? Do they suffer from any kind of disability to have a seat reserved for them?"

But if I think about it again, I feel a girl/woman feels really nice if a man offers a seat.....I feel it should all be voluntary rather than someone imposing it on you and making it a rule that must be followed.


----------



## la reine victoria

emma42 said:
			
		

> Welcome to the Forum, tigretoro! It sounds as though you have some of the same traditions in India as here in England.


 

I haven't seen any men climbing on to bus roofs over here.  I think this is what Tigretoro means.

Welcome Tigretoro!  




LRV


----------



## cuchuflete

Having re-read the idiotic asides about gestation and birth, I cannot help but ask why I should give a flying fig whether a woman has borne a child, not mine, when deciding whether to volunteer to relinquish a seat on a public conveyance. By that illogic, I would not be required to give up my roosting place for mothers who adopt, rather than bear, children.

The antedeluvian sense of entitlement displayed by some members of this conversation ignores, as Tony has pointedly noted, that such privileges are often accompanied by assumptions of obligation or inferiority.

Hmmmmmm....perhaps the bit about inferiority _does_ apply to some who _claim_ the right to my chair.


----------



## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> That is not what I wrote.
> I will highlight the important parts of what I wrote: "Do *those who claim* that men *should* offer them their seat not realise that *this feeds the mentality* of idiot males".
> 
> My "target" is those who make the claim that it is something which men should do, because women are women - not those who claim that anyone should offer their seat to anyone else. This claim is a one-way, sexually discriminatory one.
> My "charge" to that target is that their attitude feeds a certain mentality - that that women are lesser beings.
> 
> Yes, I still stand by what I said, but not by how you interpreted what I said.


 
Here, here!
You are so my hero!!!!!!!


----------



## Seana

If you don't mind I will sum up. On the seventh page of our disscusion about mannerliness we come to the simple conclusion: treating women with the respect is pointing that they are lesser beings.

I am apologizing that I am writing it, but nobody has opposed for it.
So it looks that all of you here agree with this assumption?
Is is really the truth?


----------



## timpeac

Seana said:
			
		

> If you don't mind I will sum up. On the seventh page of our disscusion about mannerliness we come to the simple conclusion: treating women with the respect is pointing that they are lesser beings.
> 
> I am apologizing that I am writing it, but nobody has opposed for it.
> So it looks that all of you here agree with this assumption?
> Is is really the truth?


No - treating _only_ women with respect is pointing out they are lesser beings.


----------



## emma42

Seana, treating women with respect is treating them as equal beings.  This does not necessarily involve giving them a seat on the bus.  This has been dealt with over and over again, my love.

Tim, I would say "treating _only_ women with "respect" is pointing out that they are lesser beings", no?


----------



## timpeac

emma42 said:
			
		

> Tim, I would say "treating _only_ women with "respect" is pointing out that they are lesser beings", no?


Sorry Emma - I don't follow - you've said what I have said but put "respect" in inverted commas. I don't know what you mean.


----------



## vince

without the quotation marks (" ) you are implying that giving women a seat is a sign of respect.

when in fact it leads to disrespect and prejudice in other areas of life.


----------



## maxiogee

Seana said:
			
		

> If you don't mind I will sum up. On the seventh page of our disscusion about mannerliness we come to the simple conclusion: treating women with the respect is pointing that they are lesser beings.



May I point out something, Seana? Your words can be 'modified' very slightly to reveal my true opinions on this.

"treating __x__ with "difference" is pointing that they are lesser beings."




			
				Seana said:
			
		

> I am apologizing that I am writing it, but nobody has opposed for it.


You need to go back and re-read what many people here have written, Seana. Many of us strive to treat everyone with equal respect, and have made that very clear. 

Are you requesting that I offer you unequal respect with respect to the person standing beside you?


----------



## Seana

emma42 said:
			
		

> Seana, treating women with respect is treating them as equal beings. This does not necessarily involve giving them a seat on the bus. This has been dealt with over and over again, my love.(...)



Oh Emma why do you think I am a child of course it is obvious that women standing two or three station distance never die of the exhaustion  . But see this situation  how it looks like - the sitting man and the woman standing beside him.  It is a tasteless view at least for me. Something tasteless like kitschy image - knick-knack by the elegant dress.  A majority of the good manners are making the symbolism  maybe the only way can show the respect for somebody. That's all.


----------



## timpeac

vince said:
			
		

> without the quotation marks (" ) you are implying that giving women a seat is a sign of respect.
> 
> when in fact it leads to disrespect and prejudice in other areas of life.


Well, I've read and reread your words, and Emma's, and I must admit I fail to see the nuance you're making. Maybe I'm having a female moment - someone please offer me a seat immediately!


----------



## emma42

Here, Tim, take my seat.  Now make me a cup of tea!

Vince explained correctly.  I was referring to the fact that so-called courtesies, such as giving up seats for women by men, often go hand in hand with more oppressive traditions, as has been mentioned, particulalry by Maxi.  There, do you understand now, or do you need another little sit-down and a nice biscuit?

Seana, I didn't mean to talk to you like a child - it was affectionate. Truly, I  do not see anything wrong or kitsch with a man sitting down and a woman standing up.  We appear to be at a deadlock with our cultural perceptions here!


----------



## timpeac

emma42 said:
			
		

> Here, Tim, take my seat. Now make me a cup of tea!
> 
> Vince explained correctly. I was referring to the fact that so-called courtesies, such as giving up seats for women by men, often go hand in hand with more oppressive traditions, as has been mentioned, particulalry by Maxi. There, do you understand now, or do you need another little sit-down and a nice biscuit?


Oi, enough with the condescension already - or are you forgetting who's the man and who's the woman here! Honestly. I see - by adding the "" you are implying "so called". Well, it's innovative - I'll give you that!
ps - if you reread my posts I think you will see that's the very point I've tried to make each time


----------



## Seana

emma42 said:
			
		

> We appear to be at a deadlock with our cultural perceptions here!



Yes Emma, you are right. 

Perhaps it is definitively out of the point but I wanted to share with my observation here in WR forum. Reading various topics I noticed that even using wisest, sharpest, most intelligent less or more witty arguments very rarely we are becoming convinced of our opponents.
However some reflection will remain. Who knows?


----------



## badgrammar

> these are the same men (and some women) who, when reading of a sexual assault on a woman, believe that the volume and style of clothing she was wearing at the time may have played some significant part in the incident?



Yes, m'dear, and the above is also what you wrote...  I don't think men should or shouldn't give up their seats.  I'd be uncomfortable at my age to accept a seat on public transportation from a man, just because I was standing.  I would thank him but (unless I was bad-off that day) wouldn't accept.  It's never happened.  I don't expect it or feel miffed that it doesn't happen.

To all:  Let's have a little humor and try to see that things are not black and white, feminist-anti-feminst, etc...  There are shades of gray...




			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> That is not what I wrote.
> I will highlight the important parts of what I wrote: "Do *those who claim* that men *should* offer them their seat not realise that *this feeds the mentality* of idiot males".
> 
> My "target" is those who make the claim that it is something which men should do, because women are women - not those who claim that anyone should offer their seat to anyone else. This claim is a one-way, sexually discriminatory one.
> My "charge" to that target is that their attitude feeds a certain mentality - that that women are lesser beings.
> 
> Yes, I still stand by what I said, but not by how you interpreted what I said.


----------



## Fernando

OK. Those of us who used to get up in public transport when a woman was standing (and who raped the woman afterwards, of course) as a way of scorning woman and show this way our absolute despise for feminity have noticed that we are insulting this particular woman and all women in all history of Mankind.

I will not do it again, sorry. Should I commit seppuku (hara-kiri) or Could I stay alive (mercifully)?

Please, allow me to do it when my mum is in the bus: she will kill me if she watches a woman is standing and I do not get up.

Sorry, sorry very much. Kyrie.


----------



## GenJen54

Pish posh to it all! 

I claim to be lazy. I claim to enjoy sitting down, and not having to stand while riding in public transportation. It's a choice that is not based upon my sex, but my sense of idleness, and the fact that I often wear high heels which are not condusive to the bumps and jostles that are frequent in present-day bus riding (we have no subway where I live).

If a man were to offer me a seat, I would regard him with a kind "thank you," then probably sit down. If the man were greatly older, I would probably refuse with the same polite "no thank you." To me it is a respect for elders, not for any gender.  I would also offer a seat to someone much older than myself - regardless of their sex.  If they refused, I would simply go on about my business.

On the flip side, you will find me just as graciously opening doors for others (men/women of all ages) as I appreciate others opening doors for me. 

Chivalry goes both ways. It has to do with respect for your neighbors based on the fact they share the same general living space with you, not whether they happen to have a few extra bits in their trousers!


----------



## maxiogee

Fernando said:
			
		

> Please, allow me to do it when my mum is in the bus: she will kill me if she watches a woman is standing and I do not get up.



Sorry Fernando - but you should be standing already, offering your seat to that man with a slight limp standing beside that woman, who got on two stops before she did!  (He's got an artificial leg and finds standing a real problem!)


----------



## Seana

If I modified the main title of this thread
_*Why* should men get up in public transport when woman is standing???_ It could be some argument . 


			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> (...)high heels(...)


This time it isn't too sexist one is it?


----------



## emma42

Genjen, "high heels"?!  You will be wearing clean shirts and washing your hair next!  Tsk tsk, Mary Woollstonecraft, where are you now?

I, too, am extremely lazy and like to sit down a lot.  This would _never _stop me from offering my seat to someone who needed it more than I did, man, woman or child - but not cheesecake manufacturers.  They must suffer.


----------



## Poetic Device

vince said:
			
		

> without the quotation marks (" ) you are implying that giving women a seat is a sign of respect.
> 
> when in fact it leads to disrespect and prejudice in other areas of life.


 
I missed a lot but I read what I missed, however I am still going to show my natural hair colour.  What did this mean?


----------



## Maen

We don't realy have this problem in my city, since our public transport aren't very crowded. But it may happen sometimes that ther is no more sitting places. I wouldn't offer my place to a women who don't need it more than I do, exept I want to be polute and sympatic today in wich case I would offer my place to the first persnne, no difference betwen women or men. 

Anyway, most of the time I stay on my two feet cause I mostly don't stay longer than a couple of minutes in the bus (well, you can't go much further in a city of 40'000 inhabitants ) wich definitively solves the problem


----------



## Arenita

Hi!
This is the first time I write something here and this topic seems interesting, specially when we can compare our habits.  In Peru, when I was a child it was common to see a man standing up so a woman could sit.  Nowadays it is not so common.  

It is more likely to see young women getting up for old people, both women or men.  This is an example of how things can change.


----------



## Poetic Device

Arenita said:
			
		

> Hi!
> This is the first time I write something here and this topic seems interesting, specially when we can compare our habits. In Peru, when I was a child it was common to see a man standing up so a woman could sit. Nowadays it is not so common.
> 
> It is more likely to see young women getting up for old people, both women or men. This is an example of how things can change.


 
Well, now, see I can understand that (the younger women getting up for the elderly people).  It is obvious (at least to me) that would be the right thing to do.  As I said before, no matter what gender, I believe that the younger generation should let the elder sit (if not because of the possible physical problem then because of respect); both genders should allow women who ar with child to sit; and out of politeness (or courtship) men should allow women to sit.  I know that if a nice guy offered me his seat I would repay him with my phone number...


----------



## timpeac

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Well, now, see I can understand that (the younger women getting up for the elderly people). It is obvious (at least to me) that would be the right thing to do. As I said before, no matter what gender, I believe that the younger generation should let the elder sit (if not because of the possible physical problem then because of respect); both genders should allow women who ar with child to sit; and out of politeness (or courtship) men should allow women to sit. I know that if a nice guy offered me his seat I would repay him with my phone number...


You see, it's that last comment I don't get (the one in black, not the hidden one). Why on earth do you think that men owe it to women to be more polite to them than to any other person (of unspecified gender)? I just don't get it. If I feel like being an ogre I will take the seat no matter who is around me, if I feel ultra polite I will offer it to anyone nearby even if I am nearly fainting with fatigue. Usually I am somewhere between those two extremes. I suppose when I start viewing certain people as more worthy than others because of who they are I might understand this point of view.


----------



## geve

I am standing up (!) for men's right: men should be allowed to have a seat, too!  

I say this is purely unjustified discrimination that just because of a physical feature they didn't choose, they should all get at the back of the bus and stand while the female part of the society enjoys the so comfortable public transportation chairs.


----------



## Tatzingo

I haven't read any of the first 150 or so posts... but here's my view.

If a woman is standing and a man is sitting, AND the man arrived first, he shouldn't feel obliged to offer his seat to the woman and neither should he be made to feel that he should. If the woman is neither seriously ill, handicapped, pregnant nor old (and so forth) then as far as I'm concerned, there is no issue. If you don't have a seat, then it's just tough luck! Standing up won't kill her! If the situation was reversed, no one in their right mind would expect her to offer her seat to him, so why should he??? I'm not saying that men can't offer their seats to women, they can offer it to who they want, but they shouldn't feel as though they ought to offer it just because the person standing there happens to be of the opposite sex. 

Tatz.


----------



## Gato_Gordo

I know I get late to the party, but I read all the other posts and I have the feeling that there's a misunderstanding between two different aspects of male behaviour.

One it so be *chivalrous,* that is to help and protect any person who is at a (perceived) desadvantage from me.

I feel morally obliged to surrender my seat, (and open the doors, among other things) to elderly men or women, people of any age with phisical or mental disadvantages, pregnant women, women and men carring children (yes, there are single fathers too), people carring heavy stuff, young children who can't reach something, people who are obviously exhausted or ill, the list can go on and on...

The point is that this aspect of manhood have little to do with the gender of the recipient of my help. Ok, there are no such thing as a pregnant men, but should I find one, I'll stand for him to seat in my place.

The other aspect is *Gallantry* wich is by definition sexist, is the desire to please women so they like you, gallantry in not limited to sexually attractive women, one can be gallant to older women or child girls just to be nice, and it's ok to be gallant with your friends' wifes, that doesn't mean you are going to steal them away, but is sexist because it is something we do for women just because they are women.

So, if I'm getting up for a young woman because I feel she is at a disavantage from me (maybe she looks tired and is late), and she reject me and calls me sexist, I'll think she deserves the bunions she might get.

If I'm getting up for a young woman because I feel like being nice to her and compliment her, and she reject me and calls me sexist, I'll think she is being stuck-up, but she's right, I'm being sexist, what's wrong with it? ^_^


----------



## Poetic Device

Gato_Gordo said:
			
		

> I know I get late to the party, but I read all the other posts and I have the feeling that there's a misunderstanding between two different aspects of male behaviour.
> 
> One it so be *chivalrous,* that is to help and protect any person who is at a (perceived) desadvantage from me.
> 
> I feel morally obliged to surrender my seat, (and open the doors, among other things) to elderly men or women, people of any age with phisical or mental disadvantages, pregnant women, women and men carring children (yes, there are single fathers too), people carring heavy stuff, young children who can't reach something, people who are obviously exhausted or ill, the list can go on and on...
> 
> The point is that this aspect of manhood have little to do with the gender of the recipient of my help. Ok, there are no such thing as a pregnant men, but should I find one, I'll stand for him to seat in my place.
> 
> The other aspect is *Gallantry* wich is by definition sexist, is the desire to please women so they like you, gallantry in not limited to sexually attractive women, one can be gallant to older women or child girls just to be nice, and it's ok to be gallant with your friends' wifes, that doesn't mean you are going to steal them away, but is sexist because it is something we do for women just because they are women.
> 
> So, if I'm getting up for a young woman because I feel she is at a disavantage from me (maybe she looks tired and is late), and she reject me and calls me sexist, I'll think she deserves the bunions she might get.
> 
> If I'm getting up for a young woman because I feel like being nice to her and compliment her, and she reject me and calls me sexist, I'll think she is being stuck-up, but she's right, I'm being sexist, what's wrong with it? ^_^


 
I never would have been able to describe it as perfectly as you did.  Yes, maybe the thought of being galant is often thought of as to be sexist, but many women find it helps them to feel good about themselves.


----------



## Gato_Gordo

Thank you Poetic Device, here's a virtual flower to you --&-@


----------



## maxiogee

Nice flower, Gato.  
But black and white? Why not a coloured one —>  *--&-@*

and here's one with a thorn, for when a lover has a pointed message to impart  —>  *---`-&-@*


----------



## cuchuflete

And here is a thorny black and white reminder to keep the gallant chat and chivalrous chatter away from this thread......


----------



## Poetic Device

For you men to think about:

I was out with my husband last night, and he did all of the things that men in "the days of olde" would do:  pulled my chair out, held the door, helped me out of the car and so on.  Everyone at the resteraunt was eying us and finally, when I excused myself this woman followed me and continuously asked me where I found him and if he had a brother.  lol  See, women DO like that sort of thing.


----------

