# Hindi, Urdu: French



## marrish

Dear friends,

I am of course aware that the traditional word for "the French" and "French" as an adjective is "_fraansiisii/firaansiisii_" in both languages for obvious reasons.

Still, the English influence on these languages has been strong and is even growing despite that the UK does not longer rule the area.

So I have a book named (in Urdu script) French-Urdu reader. Sadly very poor book, its English, its Urdu and of course French are abominable. 

I perceive still that in Urdu (newspapers and so on) it is still "_firaansiisii_" but I would like to know what the French are called in Hindi?

Is "_fraansiisii_" a current word yet? If yes, is "franch" also used. What is your view?


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## littlepond

I have only heard 'fraansiisii': never heard of 'firaansiisii' earlier in my life. As for 'French' itself, of course it is way more common in Hindi than any other term: the Google search for 'फ्रेंच' gives you more than 11 lakh hits!* I didn't understand what did you mean by 'franch' though.

*For comparison, fraansiisii (फ्रांसीसी) gives more than 4 lakh results


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## marrish

Thank you for answering, littlepond jii. _firaansiisii_ is only a pronunciation variation to _fraansiisii_, possibly used only in Urdu in order to avoid consonant cluster at the beginning of this word.

You have nicely answered my question that the English word is more current.

What I meant by "franch" is the pronunciation. While you wrote फ्रेंच which in terms of pronunciation will be transcribed phonetically as [fɾẽːt͡ʃ], eː denoting a long vowel as in "_se, ke, de_", I am wondering if this word is really pronounced as it is written. By writting "franch" I meant to convey [fɾə̃t͡ʃ].


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## Dib

What I have heard in Delhi is something like [frɛnt͡ʃ], where the vowel length is not totally clear to me (sorry, being a native Bengali speaker, that's one of my impairments), though I tend to think it is short. In any case, I always heard it with a nasal consonant, rather than a nasal vowel.

 But the formal word is still "fraansiisii" in Hindi, I believe.


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## mundiya

^ फ्रेंच is also used formally. For example, "हिंदी-फ्रेंच शब्दकोष". On the news too one can hear "फ्रेंच".


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## Cilquiestsuens

fraa.nsiisii is portuguese, right?

(this post is 100 % broken latin-free )


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## marrish

Cilquiestsuens said:


> fraa.nsiisii is portuguese, right?
> 
> (this post is 100 % broken latin-free )


I don't know, do you know? Perhaps Portuguese in origin but not in the same form as it is in Portuguese of nowadays.

mundiya jii. Thank you for your input. Would you be so kind as to precise the pronunciation question (or anyone else?)


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## Qureshpor

I have always pronounced the word as "faraaNsiisii".


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## marrish

Thanks! I (as indicated earlier) as _firaaNsiisii_. Both are ways to avoid the cluster of consonants. But how about "french"? Should be there be a long "e" or a short one?


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## Qureshpor

The "e" in French is equivalent to the "e" in "jet". You would need to consult your sticky board and see which sign you have assigned to this vowel.


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## marrish

This I did indeed! For me it's ə̃, or maybe ɛ, but I want to hear from other friends about it, especially for Hindi. Now I have your input for Urdu which corresponds to my perception but you are way more 'anglicised'


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## littlepond

I agree with Quresh jii about the "e" in "French" as far as Hindi is concerned.


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## mundiya

marrish said:


> mundiya jii. Thank you for your input. Would you be so kind as to precise the pronunciation question (or anyone else?)



Most Hindi speakers pronounce फ्रेंच  with a short e (like jet as mentioned) because of their familiarity with the English pronunciation of "French".


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## Cilquiestsuens

I am pretty sure it is from Portuguese but I have no knowledge of this language at all. (The word _*angrezii*_ I wast told is from Portuguese too).

Quite fascinating to think that the word French has evolved in three different forms in Urdu, representing each a different layer of Foreign influence:

*firangii* - which ultimately goes back to the crusades and means in Urdu 'European' rather than specifically French (from the Arabic _*faranj*_ / _*2ifranj*_) and came in Urdu through Faarsii; quite synoymous with the present-day all-rounder _*angrez*_.

*firansiisii* - from Portuguese?

*french* - from English.

I was surprised to find out by the way that Arabic also has the word *faransiis* for French as a secondary option to the main option _*faransii*_.

Pashto, as far as I am aware of, uses _*fransii *_(_*pransii*_ in uneducated speech).


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## littlepond

Cilquiestsuens said:


> *firangii* - which ultimately goes back to the crusades and means in Urdu 'European' rather than specifically French (from the Arabic _*faranj*_ / _*2ifranj*_) and came in Urdu through Faarsii; quite synoymous with the present-day all-rounder _*angrez*_.



As far as Hindi goes, "angrez" only means an English person: not an all-rounder. "firangii" is indeed an all-rounder: for any foreigner (though often used in a pejorative context, or in a context emphasising the outsiderness/the otherness of the foreigner).


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## Cilquiestsuens

littlepond said:


> As far as Hindi goes, "angrez" only means an English person: not an all-rounder. "firangii" is indeed an all-rounder: for any foreigner (though often used in a pejorative context, or in a context emphasising the outsiderness/the otherness of the foreigner).



It is the exact same in Urdu. In educated speech, it means English only.

In uneducated / colloquial speech, _*angrez*_ is synoymous with _*gaura*_.


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## marrish

Yes, it does, and you would agree that it is_* goraa*_. I used to be called this name, together with my proper name because of my complexion.


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## littlepond

Cilquiestsuens said:


> In uneducated / colloquial speech, _*angrez*_ is synoymous with _*gaura*_.



Not so in Hindi. "goraa" is a white, usually a white foreigner; "angrez" is English. This, even in the colloquial speech, since even the uneducated do know England (colonial history being the reason). There are even expressions like "baRe angrez ban rahe ho ..." - even in them, it means English habits.

If angrez were to be synonymous with goraa, what would happen to the amriikii?


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## mundiya

littlepond said:


> "firangii" is indeed an all-rounder: for any foreigner



Not any foreigner.  It refers to Europeans (or less accurately, to whites in general).  A Japanese person visiting India, for example, would not be called a "firangii".


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## Dib

littlepond said:


> Not so in Hindi. "goraa" is a white, usually a white foreigner; "angrez" is English. This, even in the colloquial speech, since even the uneducated do know England (colonial history being the reason). There are even expressions like "baRe angrez ban rahe ho ..." - even in them, it means English habits.
> 
> If angrez were to be synonymous with goraa, what would happen to the amriikii?



Actually, I strongly disagree, as far as colloquial Delhi Hindi is concerned. It was one of my linguistic shocks when I moved to Delhi and started working in a Franco-Italian company where we (tele-/e-)interacted with French (and some Italian) colleagues on a daily basis, to find out that many of my Indian (mainly of Delhi/Haryana/Punjab background) colleagues referred to them as "angrez".


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## marrish

^You disagree and I strongly agree with what you said. At least for Urdu. Just to add,_ firangii (or farangii _as I pronounce it) is considered quite a funny word in Urdu, you can say outdated.


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## Dib

In Delhi, I also heard "firangii" frequently, though.

 (Incidentally, in Bengali the word "phiriŋgi" was once heavily used for Europeans as well as European-descended Indians; but now it is obsolete, though widely understood due to its strong existence in literature and cultural references, e.g. a popular 1960's film - "Antony Firingee", based on the life of such a historic "phiriŋgi", that is still shown on the TV regularly.)


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## littlepond

Dib said:


> Actually, I strongly disagree, as far as colloquial Delhi Hindi is concerned. It was one of my linguistic shocks when I moved to Delhi and started working in a Franco-Italian company where we (tele-/e-)interacted with French (and some Italian) colleagues on a daily basis, to find out that many of my Indian (mainly of Delhi/Haryana/Punjab background) colleagues referred to them as "angrez".



That's interesting, Dib jii; thanks for this info. I didn't know that people are using "angrez" for any white person. From what you say, your colleagues even seem to be educated guys ... and yet such a usage!


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## Qureshpor

"firaNgii" originally (as far as I know) is linked to "The Franks". From our sub-continental perspective it was used mainly for the British but I accept, it was a term for the Europeans in general and not specific to the French.


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## marrish

Back to the blackboard where French is written in Devanagari. Is it pronounced as it is written? How would you write it in Urdu?


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## prerit

Though in Hindi, _*angrez *_is the formal word for an english person but in everyday life we Indians (Hindi/Punjabi speakers) use it for every foreigner no matter he is an English or an American.
As per my knowledge _*gora(गोरा*_) should be and is sometimes used for male foreigners and _*gori (गोरी)*_ or _*mem(मेम)*_ or _*gori mem (गोरी मेम)*_ should be and is sometimes used for female foreigners especially in villages.


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## Sheikh_14

Intriguing thread as a whole. Here's what I have been able to gather both online and from personal experience:

Platts and a few other online dictionaries suggest that the term originally used was 
P فراسيسي farāsīsī class = = H فراسيس farāsīs (corr. fr. 'France'), adj. & s.m. Of or belonging to France, French; — a Frenchman; — farāsīsī, The French language.

This in essence means that akin to an Englishman being an Angrez, a Frenchman could be referred to as a Faraasiis or the more modern Fransiis. Whereas back then the language or anything French was explicitly referred to as Faraasiisii much like Angrezi is used today. Today however, for the most part faraasiis/ii have been supplanted by fraansiis/ii. One can listen to the pronunciation here Urdu Lughat . In spite of the zabar it is pronounced as Fraansiis (frenchman) and Fraansiisii (French things, people and language). That being said you hear Frenchmen being referred to as Fransiisii too. But the distinction remains available should someone wish to use it.

By extension a French woman would be a Faraasiisan/fraansiisan as an English woman is an Angrezan or Mem saaHiba (if from higher stock). That being said mem SaaHiba today extends to any classy woman regardless of her origins, however predominately used for foreigners thar are deemed different and exotic. So although a Japanese lady would not be an Angrezan she could most certainly be a Mem.


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## Empress Unicorn

Fraansiisii/firaansiisii seems to be rarely used in today's Hindi. As an Indian student who studies foreign languages, I have hardly heard them used by other Hindi speakers.


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