# She was leaning forward over him



## sorry66

_Suddenly her face appeared in front of him and she was *leaning forward over him.*_

The man is lying down on a bed when this happens in a semi-dream state. (It's from a story written recently)

http://www.wordreference.com/enit/lean over
piegarsi

http://www.wordreference.com/enit/lean forward
piegarsi in avanti

This is what I have from wordreference.  There isn't a translation for the combination of 'forward and 'over'.

_Subito la sua faccia è apparsa devanti lui e lei si piegava in avanti *sopra* lui._

I'm not sure if 'sporgere' might work too.


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## Benzene

_*Hello sorry66!*

Try_* "improvvisamente il suo volto apparve di fronte a lui e lei era piegata in avanti su di lui".*
_
Bye,

*Benzene*_


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## sorry66

Thanks, Benzene!

But why 'era piegata'? It's a continuous action.


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## micvolvox

Hi sorry66

In this case 'sporgere' is not correct. You can use it for example when you move/move an object beyond the edge of something.
_Sporsi la testa oltre la finestra per vedere le automobili sotto casa. _


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## sorry66

Thanks, micvolox. Why can't I use the imperfect tense 'piegava'?


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## Mary49

"...lei si protese su di lui"  or "...si chinò su di lui".


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## sorry66

Thank you, Mary!  Can someone explain why the imperfetto tense is not appropriate?


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## Mary49

You can use the "imperfetto", so the tenses in my post #6 should be "si protendeva" and "si chinava". Even better, you could use "si stava protendendo" and "si stava chinando".


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## sorry66

Thank you!


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## frugnaglio

sorry66 said:


> Thanks, micvolox. Why can't I use the imperfect tense 'piegava'?



‘She was leaning’ can mean two things: she was in the act of moving from an upright position to a leaning position; or: she was (motionless) in a leaning position.
Verbs like _piegarsi_ and _chinarsi_ indicate a movement, not a motionless state. So, if the meaning is that she was motionless in that position, you can't say _si chinava_, you must say _era chinata_ (where _chinata_ is used as an adjective).


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## sorry66

Thanks for the explanation!


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## alicip

frugnaglio said:


> ‘She was leaning’ can mean two things: she was in the act of moving from an upright position to a leaning position; or: she was (motionless) in a leaning position.
> Verbs like _piegarsi_ and _chinarsi_ indicate a movement, not a motionless state. So, if the meaning is that she was motionless in that position, you can't say _si chinava_, you must say _era chinata_ (where _chinata_ is used as an adjective).


So, in your opinion "she *was leaning* forward over the table" can mean two things: 
one -  she was in the act of moving from an upright position to a leaning position; 
two - she was motionless in a leaning position. 
I'm not sure I agree...
Then what does "she *was leaned* forward over the table" mean?


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## frugnaglio

alicip said:


> So, in your opinion "she *was leaning* forward over the table" can mean two things:
> one -  she was in the act of moving from an upright position to a leaning position;
> two - she was motionless in a leaning position.
> I'm not sure I agree...
> Then what does "she *was leaned* forward over the table" mean?



Oxford Dictionary: *lean*: Be in or move into a sloping position

Or do you think the _leaning tower of Pisa_ is moving? (Well, it is, actually… oh whatever)


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## Einstein

It often happens that a present participle to indicate a state or position in English is translated into Italian with a past participle.

Sitting = seduto
Leaning = inclinato
Overlapping = sovrapposti
Hanging = appeso
Lying = steso, sdraiato.


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## alicip

Einstein said:


> It often happens that a present participle to indicate a state or position in English is translated into Italian with a past participle.
> 
> Sitting = seduto
> Leaning = inclinato
> Overlapping = sovrapposti
> Hanging = appeso
> Lying = steso, sdraiato.


Right. 
So, how would you translate: "she *was leaning* forward over the table" and "she *was leaned* forward over the table"? Surely, they don't mean the same thing. Or do they?


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## Pietruzzo

alicip said:


> Right.
> So, how would you translate: "she *was leaning* forward over the table" and "she *was leaned* forward over the table"? Surely, they don't mean the same thing. Or do they?


Well, actually the OP sentence reads 


sorry66 said:


> Suddenly her face appeared in front of him


So I guess the owner of that face has already done the movement of "leaning forward" and, in fact, she was "leaned forward". As for me, I would translate "Stava chinata su di lui" not "si stava chinando""


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## sorry66

(_Arrgh! Never write a long reply on WR - it gets lost if Firefox closes down! Twice_!)

lean forward = (from WR(see OP) piegarsi in avanti ( so moving (just in one direction))

lean over = (from WR(see OP) piegarsi (in any direction) - (The subject can be moving or have come to a halt in a sloping position from a vertical one.)


frugnaglio said:


> Oxford Dictionary: *lean*: Be in or move into a sloping position



I disagree with 'be in a sloping positon' the subject of 'lean' has to have moved initially.

Re: The Leaning Tower of Pisa - it is moving or has moved in the past (albeit very slowly!)
If it had been built that way it might have been called the 'Slanting tower' ( which doesn't imply movement)

Now WR has 'lean over' as 'pendere' as well as 'piegarsi'.

*lean over* _vi phrasal_ (bend sideways) (_you can lean over backwards, forwards, sideways etc_) pendere⇒ _vi_
“ In Pisa there is a famous tower that leans (over) to one side.”

The 'over' here is optional, as far as I can see because you have ‘to one side’ and you need something to follow ‘lean’, usually. You wouldn’t say ‘There is a tower that leans’

The other thing is that if you are ‘leaning over’ it implies that you are inclined sufficiently to qualify as being ‘over’ something, even if it’s just the ground.

You would say ‘I leant towards her’ to imply a slight tilt in somebody’s direction. Similarly, ‘The pupil leant forward to hear the teacher better’, ‘She leant sideways to look round the lamppost’


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## sorry66

> Then what does "she *was leaned* forward over the table" mean?


I'm not sure I'd ever say that.  Maybe 'she was bent forward over the table'



Pietruzzo said:


> So I guess the owner of that face has already done the movement of "leaning forward" and, in fact, she was "leaned forward". As for me, I would translate "Stava chinata su di lui" not "si stava chinando""



No, she's still moving.


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## frugnaglio

sorry66 said:


> I disagree with 'be in a sloping positon' the subject of 'lean' has to have moved initially.
> 
> Re: The Leaning Tower of Pisa - it is moving or has moved in the past (albeit very slowly!)
> If it had been built that way it might have been called the 'Slanting tower' ( which doesn't imply movement)



I think it's natural to assume that if she was in that position it's because she had moved into that position... how is this in disagreement with what I said?
However, would you say that “leaning tree” can't refer to any slanting tree, but only to one that was previously upright? This hasn't got anything to do with the subject of the thread, since it's obvious that the woman had moved, I'm just curious.



sorry66 said:


> No, she's still moving.



What do you infer this from?


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## sorry66

frugnaglio said:


> ‘She was leaning’ can mean two things: she was in the act of moving from an upright position to a leaning position; or: she was (motionless) in a leaning position.
> .


I have a problem with just saying 'she was leaning' without anything after it. I'd say she 'was bent forward' or something like that. (see post# 18) (if she's not moving)


frugnaglio said:


> I think it's natural to assume that if she was in that position it's because she had moved into that position... how is this in disagreement with what I said?


If you omit to say that, as you did in 2 separate posts , it's misleading.



frugnaglio said:


> "However, would you say that “leaning tree” can't refer to any slanting tree, but only to one that was previously upright?"



Trees have often been around for longer than people, we often don't know if they were vertical to begin with, but it would be fair to say that something caused them to lean. You don't usually plant a tree in the hope that it will grow at an angle.



sorry66 said:


> _Suddenly her face appeared in front of him and she was *leaning forward over him.*_


If she were motionless, I would say 'she was bent forward over him' (You wouldn't use a verb of movement in the continuous form especially when there are two short actions together - this is more like 'short action' (appeared) with 'long action' (was leaning forward) I interpret it as 'She was leaning forward over him when her face appeared')
lean forward -piegarsi in avanti - see post #17+ OP

In any case, 'leaning' is  a tricky word!


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## frugnaglio

sorry66 said:


> I have a problem with just saying 'she was leaning' without anything after it. I'd say she 'was bent forward' or something like that. (see post# 18) (if she's not moving)



Ok, this makes sense.



sorry66 said:


> If you omit to say that, as you did in 2 separate posts , it's misleading.



Omit to say what? I don't understand what you mean here. Omit to say that she had moved before?



sorry66 said:


> Trees have often been around for longer than people, we often don't know if they were vertical to begin with, but it would be fair to say that something caused them to lean. You don't usually plant a tree in the hope that it will grow at an angle.



Not all the trees in the world have been planted... and sometimes they just grow at an angle by themselves. Could one use 'leaning' for such a tree?


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## sorry66

Yes, I think it's important to say for 'lean over' that 'The subject is moving or has come to a halt'.

As I said, something is causing the tree to lean (crowded roots, lack of sunlight etc), there isn't a genus of tree that just grows that way (as far as I know!). It leans this way or that way for a reason (as if it made the choice!) so, yes, could say a 'leaning tree', but we'd more likely use another adjective, for example, 'crooked'.


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## alicip

Sorry, sorry.  
The OED says:
*lean *4. a. *To bend* or incline in a particular direction (usually indicated by an adv. or advb. phr.). Const. from, over, towards; also with advs. back, out, † up. *(Also in pass. in the same sense.)*
A few examples:
He was leaned forward over the table, talking quickly to the other men playing cards. 
...Stake had said as Jessica was leaned forward over the steering...
She was leaned forward over the wheel, concentrating intently on the road ahead while the sun shone brightly over her shoulder.
Daminion was leaned forward over the coffee table, taking small bites of chicken from a plastic fork.
I was leaned forward over my handlebars so I bent my head down and took a quick glance backward from under my armpit. 
When I finally hazarded a look at my mother, she was leaned forward over the wheel, as if she could somehow make the car go faster by throwing her weight ...
She was leant forward, over her laptop, and had headphones on.

Are you saying the OED is wrong and that the above examples are not legitimate?


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## Einstein

I think we can say that something is leaning if it is not in an upright position (a tower, a person, a tree). We don't need to enter into its history or consider when its position passed from 90° to 82° to 75° (if we talk about a sloping floor it probably means that it has moved into this position from horizontal, but if we're talking about a sloping road I don't think we imagine it used to be horizontal!).

_Suddenly her face appeared in front of him and she was *leaning forward over him. *_
When I read this sentence I found it as natural as "she was sitting next to him". He suddenly became aware (in a dream-like state) of this situation. Her face was in front of him and she was near him in a nurse-like position. I don't see what all the debate is about...

EDIT: alicip's examples are not wrong but I find them less usual. In the same way you can say "he was sat at the table", without implying that someone sat him there, but to me it sounds regional and "he was sitting" is what I'd teach to a learner as standard.


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## sorry66

To alicip,
In any case I tend to say 'leant'. I was talking about what I prefer - I can't really say I like some of those examples. I would have used 'he was leaning over' or 'bent forward'.
And as you pointed out (and I did too) there is a difference between using the past continuous and the past participle.
To Einstein
The debate is about whether she's moving or not; I say 'yes'! (but I see that there is room for interpretation!)

Edit: In the original text,  if it had said 'she was leaning towards him', I think the movement aspect would have been clearer.


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## Einstein

sorry66 said:


> To Einstein
> The debate is about whether she's moving or not; I say 'yes'! (but I see that there is room for interpretation!)
> 
> Edit: In the original text,  if it had said 'she was leaning towards him', I think the movement aspect would have been clearer.


I agree that both interpretations are possible, but I think it's more likely to indicate position than movement. In the same way, if we say "I saw him sitting on a chair" it could indicate that I saw him as his legs were bending and his backside was moving downwards, but it's far more likely that I'm describing his position.


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## alicip

Still, do you see a difference between?
1. She was leaned/leant over the table trying to reach her purse when he came in. (I understand she's not moving)
2. She was leaning over the table trying to reach her purse when he came in. (I understand she's moving; just like in your sentence sorry)


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## Einstein

alicip said:


> 2. She was leaning over the table trying to reach her purse when he came in. (I understand she's moving; just like in your sentence sorry)


Probably in this case she was moving (but also in sentence 1), but if I say "She was leaning over the table looking at a map" I understand this was her position. The sense of movement is given by "trying to reach her purse" more than by the choice between leant and leaning.

If I say "He was leaning against the wall", do you understand that he was just beginning to touch the wall with his shoulders? To me it simply describes his position, as with standing, sitting or lying.


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## sorry66

I think 'He was leaning against the wall' is a different kettle of fish. The 'lean' here is about support not movement.

Food for thought:

1. She was stretched out over the table when he came in. (not moving)
2. She was stretching out over the table when he came in. (moving)

1. She was bent over the chair trying to reach something when he came in. (not moving)
2. She was bending over the chair trying to reach something when he came in. (moving)

But for 'lean' I think the following (I may think something else tomorrow!):

"She was leant over the table when he came in"
(I don't usually use this construction but if I heard it used, I would say 'not moving')

She was leaning over the table when he came in.
('not moving'- because I don't use the 'leant over' construction, I need something to describe static leaning.
For example, 'she was leaning over the table peering at his papers when he came in' (static tableau).
If she'd put her hand down for support I would say 'she was leaning on the table')

"She was leant forward over the table when he came in. "
( I don't usually use this construction but if I heard it used, I would say 'not moving')

She was leaning forward(s) over the table when he came in.
(moving - for me, the 'forward' implies movement, in a forward direction, it is an adverb, the same as 'backwards', you could use 'forwards' instead of 'forward'. Given how I use 'leaning over', I need something to describe active leaning so 'leaning forward' does it for me)


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## alicip

@Einstein: I undestand what you're trying to say, but please note that the verb "to lean" has, among others, the following meanings:
1. To bend or slant away from the vertical. (as in the OP)
2. To incline the weight of the body so as to be supported: leaning against the railing.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on your comparison with "to sit". According to Vendler's classification, "to sit" is both a state verb (i.e. to be sitting down; to be on a chair or seat, or on the ground, with the top half of your body upright and your weight resting on your buttocks) and a dynamic verb (i.e. to sit down; to take a seat; to get into a sitting position somewhere after you have been standing up). 
The verb "to lean" in the OP is a dynamic verb (i.e. to incline, deviate, or bend from a vertical position) and like all and cannot be compared with "to sit" which in your example is a state verb. In order to avoid ambiguity, many scholars suggest using different constructions with the verb "to sit" as in:
1. When I entered, he was sitting at the bar. (he was not moving; that was his position)
2. When I entered, he was taking a seat at the bar. (this implies motion; he was in the act of sitting down)

@sorry: Very good explanation, but please note that:
*to lean over *= *1.* *to bend over*.  Lean over and pick the pencil up yourself! I'm not your servant!  As Kelly leaned over to tie her shoes, her chair slipped out from under her. 2. to tilt over.  The fence leaned over and almost fell.  As the wind blew, the tree leaned over farther and farther.
That said, to me the following statement is true:
*"X was leaned/leant over the table" = "X was bent over the table"*


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## °Adhara°

sorry66 said:


> _Suddenly her face appeared in front of him and she was *leaning forward over him.*_



My try:
Improvvisamente gli apparve davanti il volto di lei che si sporgeva sopra di lui.

Sicuramente è migliorabile, ma "sporgersi" non potrebbe rendere l'ambiguità della frase originale? Con questo verbo potrebbe essere sia ferma che in movimento. Cosa ne pensate?


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## sorry66

I like  it! Thanks!


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## mopsa

alicip said:


> Sorry, sorry.
> The OED says:
> *lean *4. a. *To bend* or incline in a particular direction (usually indicated by an adv. or advb. phr.). Const. from, over, towards; also with advs. back, out, † up. *(Also in pass. in the same sense.)*
> A few examples:
> He was leaned forward over the table, talking quickly to the other men playing cards.
> ...Stake had said as Jessica was leaned forward over the steering...
> She was leaned forward over the wheel, concentrating intently on the road ahead while the sun shone brightly over her shoulder.
> Daminion was leaned forward over the coffee table, taking small bites of chicken from a plastic fork.
> I was leaned forward over my handlebars so I bent my head down and took a quick glance backward from under my armpit.
> When I finally hazarded a look at my mother, she was leaned forward over the wheel, as if she could somehow make the car go faster by throwing her weight ...
> She was leant forward, over her laptop, and had headphones on.
> 
> Are you saying the OED is wrong and that the above examples are not legitimate?


I am surprised that the OED suggests the passive, because I would say your examples aren't standard in British English and actually, the OED doesn't give any examples of the usage.  I can see  that an _object_ might be 'leaned' by someone against another object, but that's a true passive.  In the examples you give, the subjects are assuming the leaning position all by themselves - no-one else is 'leaning' them.

It looks to me a bit like 'was sat' and 'was stood' (instead of 'was sitting' and 'was standing') which are common in informal English, especially in the North of England, but are regarded as non-standard.

I would stick to _was leaning.  Lean forward _and _lean over_ are both common, but the two together sound a little odd to me.


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## Einstein

mopsa said:


> It looks to me a bit like 'was sat' and 'was stood' (instead of 'was sitting' and 'was standing') which are common in informal English, especially in the North of England, but are regarded as non-standard.


Exactly. So if we don't use a past participle to describe a static position we use a present participle, without this suggesting a movement in progress.


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## sorry66

Oh dear...I'm now beginning to have doubts about the following sentences:

_She was leaning forward(s) over the table when he came in.
_


sorry66 said:


> Suddenly her face appeared in front of him and she was *leaning forward over him.*



I see that the 'leaning' could be static or dynamic depending on the context. For the OP sentence, the following one is (to paraphrase) 'As she leant closer…..', so I was assuming that when she appeared she was moving.



mopsa said:


> I would stick to _was leaning.  Lean forward _and _lean over_ are both common, but the two together sound a little odd to me.


I agree about the 'was leaning' (I've said so much myself in earlier posts) but I don't think the combination sounds odd - the idea is 'lean forward' + 'over something'. It's not a composite verb like 'lean forward' or 'lean over'.


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## frugnaglio

So, until now we have two native speakers who understand 'was leaning' to be static and two who take it to be dynamic. Which probably means that it's irresolvably ambiguous – and it's even likely that the difference between the two meanings has no effect on the story. I think that Adhara's suggestion 'si sporgeva' is the best solution then (other than asking the writer what he meant... not before making a huge bet among us on it!) even though the sense of _sporgersi_ is a bit 'jutting out _of something_', and there's no something to jut out of here, so I'd prefer _chinarsi_ or _piegarsi_... if we could agree on the meaning!


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## Einstein

frugnaglio said:


> and it's even likely that the difference between the two meanings has no effect on the story.


I agree entirely!


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## sorry66

Touché (about the effect on the story). In Italian, there seems to be a number of choices, anyway. Thanks for all the suggestions, everybody!
I suppose with the word 'lean', native speakers are more focussed on the position when they use it and have never really thought about the movement aspect it entails: hence the confusion.


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