# no tricks up your sleeve



## Garbonzia

hello!

can you tell me if my translation is right, please?

Here's my try :
"pas de bêtises"

thanks in advance


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## sandera

Bonsoir,
Would this be right.........." pas de batises,relevez vous manches?"
S.


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## geve

I'm a bit puzzled, without any further context I would have understood "up your sleeve" as in this thread, meaning something like "don't you plan to play any tricks on me". Is my interpretation possible at all?


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## Old Novice

geve said:


> I'm a bit puzzled, without any further context I would have understood "up your sleeve" as in this thread, meaning something like "don't you plan to play any tricks on me". Is my interpretation possible at all?


 
"Tricks up your sleeve" has a different meaning than "something else up your sleeve." The second, in the sense asked about in the other thread, means "in reserve", a good thing to try out if the first one doesn't work. "Tricks up your sleeve" suggests instead things with which to trick or deceive me. It derives from magic acts, I believe, or from people who cheat at cards.

BTW, the first may derive from magic acts, too, since we like it when the magician does a good job, and when there are other tricks still to come.

I don't know how the two meanings diverged this way, but having "tricks up your sleeve" is a negative thing, not a positive one.

Having said all this, I have no idea at all about how to translate the phrase. I'm simply hoping this clarifies the idea for those who might.


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## Jumot

Plus d'un tour dans son sac?

Julie


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## geve

Thanks, Old Novice, that was indeed what I had in mind (magicians who hide something in their sleeves). _Avoir plus d'un tour dans son sac_ sounds good, but it doesn't really imply something negative, does it? 

_Préparer un mauvais tour,_ maybe... But it might help if Garbonzia gave us more context!


-- [edit] but is it really always negative? There seems to be quite a few google results where it's indeed used like "un tour dans son sac". More context would definitely help!!


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## Nicomon

In line with garbonzia's initial suggestion "pas de bêtises", how about...

pas de mauvaises surprises ?


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## Old Novice

geve said:


> Thanks, Old Novice, that was indeed what I had in mind (magicians who hide something in their sleeves). _Avoir plus d'un tour dans son sac_ sounds good, but it doesn't really imply something negative, does it?
> 
> _Préparer un mauvais tour,_ maybe... But it might help if Garbonzia gave us more context!
> 
> 
> -- [edit] but is it really always negative? There seems to be quite a few google results where it's indeed used like "un tour dans son sac". More context would definitely help!!


 
On reflection, I think geve is right that it is not always negative. Whether it is negative or positive depends on the context. If people are helping you, tricks up their sleeves are good. If they're hurting you, tricks up their sleeves are bad.

In the previous thread that geve found for us, the person was helping. I read this thread as about a person who might be hurting. Sorry, but I guess I confused the intent with the presence or absence of the word "tricks." That was a mistake.  - O.N.


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## Garbonzia

Nicomon said:


> In line with garbonzia's initial suggestion "pas de bêtises", how about...
> 
> pas de mauvaises surprises ?


 

that could be right.

the song's called Idiots rule the world

Here's the context :
"oh when you go, you make me sad,
you said : "no tricks up your sleeve"
now there's no one else left to leave"


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## Garbonzia

can anyone tell me if Nicomon is right, please?


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## Bastoune

Jumot said:


> Plus d'un tour dans son sac?
> 
> Julie


 
Ouais, je suis d'accord.  Pour dire "no tricks" = "je n'ai aucun tour dans mon sac"?


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## Cath.S.

Garbonzia said:


> can anyone tell me if Nicomon is right, please?


Àma, non, mais *c'est juste mon avis*, et je me base aussi sur les exemples de _tricks up your sleeve_ que je trouve ça et là sur Internet, qui correspondent beaucoup plus à la traduction de Julie.

Dans la chanson de Ryan Adams, cela pourrait signifier _tu ne me surprends plus, je te connais par coeur_ => je m'en vais voir ailleurs.


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## Garbonzia

ok, comme il n'y pas pas de pronom personnel, je pensais que c'était une sorte d'ordre.
Merci


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## Cath.S.

Garbonzia said:


> ok, comme il n'y pas pas de pronom personnel, je pensais que c'était une sorte d'ordre.
> Merci


C'est vrai que cela y ressemble, mais je reste pour l'instant sur mon interprétation, ce serait bien d'avoir l'avis des anglaocs.


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## la grive solitaire

Ama il s'agit d'une simple ellipse:

You said [that you had] No tricks up your sleeve = Tu m'avais dit que tu ne me jouerais pas un mauvais tour

http://www.answeringbell.com/Answering Bell/Songs/idiots_rule_the_world.htm


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## Cath.S.

Je l'interprète aussi comme une ellipse, mais je lis plutôt you said  "[you have] no tricks up your sleeve".


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## Garbonzia

rrrrrrrrrr.... I'm going crazy!


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## la grive solitaire

egueule said:


> Je l'interprète aussi comme une ellipse, mais je lis plutôt you said "[you have] no tricks up your sleeve".


 
Il faut le passé en anglais:

You _say_ [that you _have_] no tricks up your sleeve: present/present

You _said_ [that you _had_] no tricks up your sleeve: past/past

Ne t'en fais pas, garbonzia! :+) Je crois que c'est bien ça .


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## Cath.S.

I mean that the character in the song said, quote, you (Ryan Adams, or the person who tells his story of lost love in the song) have no tricks up your sleeve, unquote.


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## geve

I understand it the same way as egueule, because of the quotation marks in the original text: _You said: "[you have] no tricks up your sleeves"_

Est-ce que ça ne pourrait pas signifier "tu n'as rien pour me retenir, aucun autout dans ta manche pour que je reste" ?


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## la grive solitaire

egueule said:


> I mean that the character in the song said, quote, you (Ryan Adams, or the person who tells his story of lost love in the song) have no tricks up your sleeve, unquote.


The song is addressed to the woman who has loved and left him. It's elliptical the way that songs often are, to fit the lyrics and music together:

_Oh, [my love] when you [my love] go, you [my love] make me sad_

_You [my love], said "[that you had] no tricks up your sleeve"_

_Now there's no one else left to leave_

_And idiots rule the world_



geve said:


> I understand it the same way as egueule, because of the quotation marks in the original text: _You said: "[you have] no tricks up your sleeves"_
> 
> Est-ce que ça ne pourrait pas signifier "tu n'as rien pour me retenir, aucun autout dans ta manche pour que je reste" ?


 
Je ne crois pas, geve..._ You said that you had no tricks up your sleeve_ veut dire: You told me that you were honest, straightforward, and instead you've been double-dealing, dishonest, sly, tricky, i.e., _you had tricks up your sleeve_


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## Nicomon

egueule said:


> Àma, non, mais *c'est juste mon avis*, et je me base aussi sur les exemples de _tricks up your sleeve_ que je trouve ça et là sur Internet, qui correspondent beaucoup plus à la traduction de Julie.
> 
> Dans la chanson de Ryan Adams, cela pourrait signifier _tu ne me surprends plus, je te connais par coeur_ => je m'en vais voir ailleurs.


 
J'ai suggéré "_pas de mauvaises surprises_" (avec un *?*) hors contexte, en me fiant à la suggestion initiale de Garbonzia et au "NO" ... dans le sens "_ne me joue pas de sales tours_" . 

Je trouve parfois moins fastidieux de consulter un bon vieux dictionnaire qu'Internet, et selon Robert et Collins la suggestion de Julie "_(il a) plus d'un tour dans son sac_" est l'équivalent français de "_he's always got something up his sleeve"..._ en effet très proche. Pour ce qui est de la chanson d'Adams, je cherche encore, mais ton interprétation me parait plausible.


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## geve

I'm still a bit puzzled though... (sorry  )


la grive solitaire said:


> _You [my love], said "[that you had] no tricks up your sleeve"_


Then why the quotations marks? If it is reported speech (= you said that you had...) then it wouldn't require inverted commas. 
If it is NOT reported speech then it means that the gone lover said the sentence, hence the sleeves belong to the singer/writer of the song (or else it should have been: _You said: "no tricks up *my* sleeves"_)
No?


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## Cath.S.

_



You said that you had no tricks up your sleeve veut dire: You told me that you were honest, straightforward,
		
Click to expand...

_Yes, it does. But it is not what is written.

And there are *quotation marks*, which mean the author is quoting from direct speech.


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## la grive solitaire

geve said:


> I'm still a bit puzzled though... (sorry  )
> 
> Then why the quotations marks? If it is reported speech (= you said that you had...) then it wouldn't require inverted commas.
> If it is NOT reported speech then it means that the gone lover said the sentence, hence the sleeves belong to the singer/writer of the song (or else it should have been: _You said: "no tricks up *my* sleeves"_)
> No?


Hi geve,
I think I see the difficulty, but I'm afraid I don't know how to explain it  other than to say that my understanding of the lyrics is that "No tricks up your sleeve" is an ellipsis, spoken by the one who has been left.

Not to add to the confusion--but quote marks don't necessarily mean a quote (reported speech) in English, either. They're often used just to set off an expression, which could also be the case here.


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## Cath.S.

Dictionaries fail to mention that usage.

Either of a pair of punctuation marks used primarily to mark the beginning and end of a passage attributed to another and repeated word for word, but also to indicate meanings or glosses and to indicate the unusual or dubious status of a word. 
http://www.bartleby.com/61/17/Q0041700.html


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## geve

Alright, let's forget the context of this thread just for a while  

Imagine that Gisèle is about to dump Maurice, is it plausible at all that she would tell him "no tricks up your sleeves"? Meaning something like "Maurice, tu n'as plus de secret pour moi" or "il n'y a rien chez toi qui pourrait me retenir"?


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## Nicomon

geve said:


> Alright, let's forget the context of this thread just for a while
> 
> Imagine that Gisèle is about to dump Maurice, is it plausible at all that she would tell him "no tricks up your sleeves"? Meaning something like "Maurice, tu n'as plus de secret pour moi" or "il n'y a rien chez toi qui pourrait me retenir"?


 
This is in line with egueule's interpretation (post # 12), and I agree that it's perfectly plausible.


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## Nicomon

Don't know whether or not it will help, but I found Ryan Adam's quote, below, and complete lyrics here

"_I think I wrote this song just for the excuse for the title of the song . . . . It's really not about people ruling the world, it's just really about not be able to get no chicks_." Ryan Adams

I think it confirms that egueule and geve are on the right track, wouldn't you agree?


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## la grive solitaire

Nicomon said:


> Don't know whether or not it will help, but I found Ryan Adam's quote, below, and complete lyrics here
> 
> "_I think I wrote this song just for the excuse for the title of the song . . . . It's really not about people ruling the world, it's just really about not be able to get no chicks_." Ryan Adams
> 
> I think it confirms that egueule and geve are on the right track, wouldn't you agree?


 

Yes, the quote was in the link that I gave in my first post, and you're right that the song is about someone who has "woman trouble". You might want to consider the level of English of both the quote and the lyrics that we've all been spilling so much "ink"  over. The song is written in colloquial, slang AE, and the quote marks don't necessarily mean direct speech. Not all punctuation is created equal, especially in lyrics. I have a different understanding of it than egueule and geve do, no doubt because I've heard many, many songs like it with similar ellipses and turns of phrase. Perhaps in this case there's simply a cultural piece that makes it difficult to explain, and certainly to translate. It reminds me of a recent thread about a French expression in which someone commented that you had to be born French to understand it.


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## Cath.S.

la grive solitaire said:


> Yes, the quote was in the link that I gave in my first post, and you're right that the song is about someone who has "woman trouble". You might want to consider the level of English of both the quote and the lyrics that we've all been spilling so much "ink"  over. The song is written in colloquial, slang AE, and the quote marks don't necessarily mean direct speech. Not all punctuation is created equal, especially in lyrics. I have a different understanding of it than egueule and geve do, no doubt because I've heard many, many songs like it with similar ellipses and turns of phrase. Perhaps in this case there's simply a cultural piece that makes it difficult to explain, and certainly to translate. It reminds me of a recent thread about a French expression in which someone commented that you had to be born French to understand it.


In any event I would still like to hear several different natives' opinions about those lyrics.


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## Nicomon

la grive solitaire said:


> Yes, the quote was in the link that I gave in my first post, and you're right that the song is about someone who has "woman trouble". You might want to consider the level of English of both the quote and the lyrics that we've all been spilling so much "ink"  over. .


 
Oops, sorry I had not clicked on your link and just gave one to the exact same site.    I recognized the colloquial slang AE. I personally prefer Dylan's lyrics.  

Then again, I still have the same understanding as geve and egueule.


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## polaire

Old Novice said:


> On reflection, I think geve is right that it is not always negative. *Whether it is negative or positive depends on the context. If people are helping you, tricks up their sleeves are good.* If they're hurting you, tricks up their sleeves are bad.
> 
> In the previous thread that geve found for us, the person was helping. I read this thread as about a person who might be hurting. Sorry, but I guess I confused the intent with the presence or absence of the word "tricks." That was a mistake.  - O.N.



In my experience, a trick up one's sleeve is always good, as is to have "a bag of tricks."  When a magician wants to assure the audience (usually falsely) that s/he is not relying on any devices, s/he says: "Nothing up my sleeves."


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## geve

egueule said:


> In any event I would still like to hear several different natives' opinions about those lyrics.


I think La Grive isn't saying that our understanding isn't plausible:


la grive solitaire said:


> and the quote marks don't necessarily mean direct speech.


"not necessarily" implies that it _could_ mean that too, doesn't it? So the meaning of the lyrics is left to the listener's interpretation in the end. And Polaire's post could corroborate our interpretation.


polaire said:


> In my experience, a trick up one's sleeve is always good, as is to have "a bag of tricks." When a magician wants to assure the audience (usually falsely) that s/he is not relying on any devices, s/he says: "Nothing up my sleeves."


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## polaire

la grive solitaire said:


> . . .
> 
> _Oh, [my love] when you [my love] go, you [my love] make me sad_
> 
> *You [my love], said "[that you had] no tricks up your sleeve"*
> 
> _Now there's no one else left to leave_
> 
> _And idiots rule the world_
> 
> . . .





Nicomon said:


> Don't know whether or not it will help, but I found Ryan Adam's quote, below, and complete lyrics here
> 
> * "I think I wrote this song just for the excuse for the title of the song . . . . It's really not about people ruling the world, it's just really about not be able to get no chicks." *Ryan Adams
> 
> I think it confirms that egueule and geve are on the right track, wouldn't you agree?





geve said:


> I think La Grive isn't saying that our understanding isn't plausible:
> 
> "not necessarily" implies that it _could_ mean that too, doesn't it? So the meaning of the lyrics is left to the listener's interpretation in the end. And Polaire's post could corroborate our interpretation.



In my long-ago youth I used to actually try to make sense of song lyrics and would get frustrated when certain things failed to make sense. Then one day I realized that the songwriters' intentions often amounted to no more than what Ryan Adams says above: A whine about chicks. 

Personally, I think that he has confused and conflated the expressions "to have a trick up one's sleeves" and "to have nothing up one's sleeves."  As most of us don't think of our significant others as deceiving Svengalis/David Copperfields (the magician, not the character by Dickens), this is not the best metaphor for love.


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## mother2003

Bastoune said:


> Ouais, je suis d'accord. Pour dire "no tricks" = "je n'ai aucun tour dans mon sac"?


 

moi je dirais plutôt: aucun tour dans *ton* sac!


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