# Historic use of nn in Irish



## Margrave

Hello. The Irish language has words that end in _-nn_. Seems like some of them are pronounced palatized as _ñ (gn)_. I wonder if this palatized _ñ_ for the double _nn_ is spoken in all Ireland or is restricted to a regional dialect?


----------



## AndrasBP

Margrave said:


> The Irish language has words that end in _-nn_. Seems like some of them are pronounced palatized as _ñ (gn)_.


I don't think it matters if the _n_ is doubled or not.
The palatalized pronunciation occurs when a consonant is *preceded or followed* by a front  vowel (_e_ or_ i_):

In the word _*donn *_(brown) the final consonant is not palatalized because _o_ is not a front vowel.
In the word _*ceann *_(head), the initial /k/ is palatalized (it's followed by _e_), but the final /n/ is not (it's preceded by _a_).
In *álainn *(beautiful) the /n/ *is* palatalized (preceded by i).

I think this is a universal feature in Gaelic, both in the Irish and Scottish varieties.


----------



## Margrave

Hi! Thank you. In this case, the Irish word ainneo_in_ would be pronounced aineo_iñ_?


----------



## entangledbank

It would be something like _añoñ_. The vowels adjacent to the consonants are often just there to indicate whether the consonants are 'broad' or 'slender' (palatalized). So the sequence _eoi_ is likely to mean [o] with slender consonants on each side.

Disclaimer: I find Irish horribly complicated and am no expert. (Worse than Portuguese!)


----------



## Margrave

entangledbank said:


> Disclaimer: I find Irish horribly complicated and am no expert.


no problem  and thank you. So even at the middle of a word when there is _i_ followed by _nn_ this will be palatalized into _iñ_. 
To your knowledge, in Irish does any other vowel palatalizes the _n_, like _eñ, oñ, uñ_? Or palatalization is restricted to_ i_ followed by _n_ or _nn_?


----------



## AndrasBP

Margrave said:


> To your knowledge, in Irish does any other vowel palatalizes the _n_, like _eñ, oñ, uñ_? Or palatalization is restricted to_ i_ followed by _n_ or _nn_?


See my post #2. 
In Gaelic spelling (Irish or Scottish), the palatalized pronunciation of _*any *_consonant is indicated by writing* e or i *before or after it. 
If the consonant is in the middle of a word, the adjacent vowels must be of the same type (e/i or a/o/u).


----------



## Margrave

@AndrasBP Thank you. I need to confirm this with real-life samples. As far as I checked (I'm still checking), in the Irish from Ulster, we have, for instance:
ainneoin=añóñ (as you mentioned).
méin=meiñ
glín=gluñ

Seems like the more to the South in Ireland, the less palatalization. The Irish from Munster would say all those words above without palatalization: ánoin, min, krún, for instance or something like this. Seems like palatalization in Welsh and in the Breton dialect from Vannes (France) were a recent event. This could mean that the palatalization was not originated from Proto-Celtic. Do you have any information to confirm/dispel this scenario?


----------



## AndrasBP

Margrave said:


> Seems like the more to the South in Ireland, the less palatalization.


As far as I remember, this is true, but even Munster Irish has some palatalization. 
Most learning materials seem to feature native speakers from Connacht, probably because the largest Gaeltacht area is in Connemara. 



Margrave said:


> Seems like palatalization in Welsh and in the Breton dialect from Vannes (France) were a recent event.


I'm not aware of any palatalization in Welsh. 



Margrave said:


> This could mean that the palatalization was not originated from Proto-Celtic.


I'm afraid I know next to nothing about the historical phonology of Celtic languages.


----------



## Margrave

I will check better about Welsh, thank you.  You are right, in Munster there is some palatalization but comparing to Ulster, it is very sly.


----------



## se16teddy

I am only a beginner in Irish, but I think I know enough to say this.

- In Gaelic (Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx) and also many or most or all Slavonic languages (for example Russian and Polish) many or most consonants come in phonemically distinct pairs: basically, for each consonant phoneme in English, you get two in Irish or Russian. This distinction has existed for many centuries.
- In Russian and Polish, the basic distinction is between *high* and* low* position of the tongue. From the point of view of universal phonetics, you can call the ones pronounced with the high position “palatalized”; but the common and traditional terms (at least for Russian) are “soft”, opposed to “hard”.
- In (all) Gaelic languages (and dialects), the basic distinction is between *front* and* back* pronunciation. From the point of view of universal phonetics, you can call the ones pronounced with the back position “velarized”; but the common and traditional terms for Irish are “broad” as opposed to “slender” So the word bí, meaning “be” is phonemically distinguished from the word buí, meaning “yellow” in that the b is slender in the first and broad in the second.
- Here comes the really confusing bit. In Gaelic and Slavonic, the listener partly or even mainly perceives the* phonemic* distinction in the *consonant* by the *phonetic* effect that it has on neighbouring *vowels*.
- Irish spelling shows that a consonant is broad by having an a, o or u beside it; and Irish spelling shows that a consonant is slender by having an i or an e beside it. So a rule of Irish spelling is that all consonants are
   - - *either* next to one or more of a, o or u
   - - *or* next to one or more of i or e.
(In Slavonic, the difference is shown in the orthography either by the following vowel or by special markers.)
One of the difficulties of reading Irish for the beginner is to know whether a (written) vowel is pronounced as a vowel, or whether it is only there to indicate whether a neighbouring consonant is broad or slender.

If you know a language such as Spanish that distinguishes between _ñ_ and n, you may well perceive the difference between ní (daughter) and naoi (nine) as comparable to the difference between _ñi_ and _ni_. If you know a language such as English that distinguishes between n and ng, you may well perceive the difference between ní (daughter) and naoi (nine) as comparable to the difference between ngee and nee. But neither perception goes to the heart of the general principle of the Gaelic distinction.

This phonemic distinction is made in Irish and the other Gaelic languages, but not in Welsh or the other Brythonic languages.

Irish spells many words with double consonants, but I think this is for historical or aesthetic reasons or to distinguish between homonyms. It does not indicate that a consonant is broad or slender.

Irish phonology - Wikipedia


----------



## Margrave

@se16teddy thank you, your post is most interesting. As you mention Slavic languages, by chance you know if Russian, Ukrainian and Bielorussian have palatalization? There is for sure in Czech, Polish and Slovak, but I am not sure about the first three languages.


----------



## Welsh_Sion

Dear Margrave,

I don't know how far your budget extends, but for my language (and of course much else on the other Celtic languages), I suggest you invest in this, especially for the points above at pp. 106ff.

A Concise Comparative Celtic Grammar: Henry Lewis, Holger Pedersen: 9783525261026: Amazon.com: Books

I managed to get a 1st edition copy in the National Eisteddfod 1 year, and I'm not lending it out to anyone!

Hwyl / Adeus

PS Just found you a cheaper one - but not in excellent quality:

Concise Comparative Celtic Grammar - AbeBooks


----------



## se16teddy

Margrave said:


> @se16teddy thank you, your post is most interesting. As you mention Slavic languages, by chance you know if Russian, Ukrainian and Bielorussian have palatalization? There is for sure in Czech, Polish and Slovak, but I am not sure about the first three languages.


I don't know Ukrainian or Bielorussian. However, Russian, Ukrainian and Bielorussian, the East Slavonic languages, are very closely related, and I would be very surprised if there were any big differences in this respect.


----------



## Margrave

@Welsh_Sion thank you very much for the detailed information you posted and your time finding the book. I just purchased from another used book dealer. Thank you.


----------



## Margrave

@se16teddy thank you  I will post the subject in the proper Slavic forum.


----------

