# grand-place



## James Bates

I recently came across this:

Où est votre lieu de travail?
Près de la grand-place.

Can somebody tell me why: 1. grand is not in the feminine and 2. why there is hyphen between there?
I'm guessing it means "the big square".


----------



## Michelvar

James Bates said:


> 1. grand is not in the feminine


5 centuries ago, "grand" was both masculine and feminine. It became "grande" around XVIth century. Some old forms remained in the language, like "grand-mère", "grand-rue", "grand-place", "grand-voile"...



James Bates said:


> 2. why there is hyphen between there?


To distinguish between those old forms, which became set expressions/nouns,  and the current use of "grand/grande" as an adjective.



James Bates said:


> I'm guessing it means "the big square".


Yes, it does.


----------



## Chimel

In addition to what Michelvar explains: you could say "c'est une grande place", meaning "it's a big square", as opposed to "la grand-place", the main square of the town (which, in some cases, is not that big...).

Isn't French easy and marvelous?


----------



## LeMigueux

Hello,

In Old French, "grand" did have only one form for masculine and feminine. "Grand-rue", "grand-place", "grand-mère" are thus archaïc forms. Before the Académie française fixed it in 1932, you could also read grand'mère, grand'rue, but this is no longer correct and furthermore it had no justification, since there has never been an original "e" at the end of "grand" that this apostrophe would stand for.
So the "grand-place" is the main square of a city. For the one I know best, Brussels, both words take a capital letter in French: "la Grand-Place de Bruxelles". The word is also used as such in English for that particular square, but if I trust what wikipédia says, it is used without the dash.
"Une grande place" can also exist, but it just mean a big square.
Equally, "une grand-mère" is a grandmother, but "une grande mère", though it sounds a bit weird, would be a tall mother."
"La grand-route" is the highway, and "la grande route" is the long way.
"La grand-rue" is the main street of a village, whereas "la grande rue" refers to a large street.


----------



## James Bates

Merci bien!


----------



## LeMigueux

Sorry, our posts crossed, but at least they are consistant with eachother.


----------



## broglet

James Bates said:


> I recently came across this:
> 
> Où est votre lieu de travail?
> Près de la grand-place.
> 
> Can somebody tell me why: 1. grand is not in the feminine and 2. why there is hyphen between there?
> I'm guessing it means "the big square".


Actually it doesn't mean 'the big square' any more than 'la grand-mère' means 'the big mother' or 'la grand-rue' means 'the big street'.
There is a great explanation here
Just one further point, if anyone explains where he works by saying it is "près de la grand-place" he is probably not _describing_ the square but is saying he works near the square which is _called _"(La) Grand-Place"


----------



## Michelvar

That's right, for "grand-mère" it's not this meaning of "grand".
For "grand-rue" and "grand-place", almost every time, it's a street or a square that has been, once, the bigger/larger of the village. Of course now perhaps the village has become a small district of a much bigger town, perhaps "rue de la grand-place" is now the name of a street that, once, was leading to the main square. But when it was original called "la grand'place", it was the main square of this area.


----------



## James Bates

broglet said:


> Actually it doesn't mean 'the big square' any more than 'la grand-mère' means 'the big mother' or 'la grand-rue' means 'the big street'.
> There is a great explanation here
> Just one further point, if anyone explains where he works by saying it is "près de la grand-place" he is probably not _describing_ the square but is saying he works near the square which is _called _"(La) Grand-Place"



Are you sure?


----------



## Chimel

Aren't we making things unneccesarily complicated? Michelvar's initial explanation is just perfect. Then we have added some nice details, but now I am afraid you are more confused...


----------



## Reynald

Juste une petite note puisque James est américain : le titre français de _Main Street _(de Sinclair Lewis) est _Grand-Rue_.


----------



## Kecha

Arras festival that is located at "La Grand-Place" is called "Main Square festival". "Grand-place" is indeed the actual name as on the street maps and signs. 

Saying "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else would sound very peasant-ish to my parisian ear. As said before, masculine "grand" and the hyphen marks an archaism. If I need to describe a big square I don't know the name of, I would say "la grande place" most definitely.


----------



## broglet

Chimel said:


> Aren't we making things unneccesarily complicated? Michelvar's initial explanation is just perfect. Then we have added some nice details, but now I am afraid you are more confused...


We are here to try to get things right even when they are complicated.  I can assure you that I am not 'more confused' but thank you for your concern.  
Thank you Kecha for confirming what I thought.


----------



## jekoh

Kecha said:


> Saying "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else would sound very peasant-ish to my parisian ear. As said before, masculine "grand" and the hyphen marks an archaism. If I need to describe a big square I don't know the name of, I would say "la grande place" most definitely.


_La grand-place _to refer to a town's main square that isn't actually called that is perfectly fine.

On the other hand, saying_ la grande place_ to refer to a town's main square sounds funny.

The word _grand-place_ is certainly not a archaic, and neither are similar constructs like _grand-mère_.


----------



## jekoh

It's not unusual for the _grand-place_ to have street signs with another name on them and the locals, let alone people from neighbouring towns, will still call it _la grand-place._


----------



## Kecha

"J'ai pris à gauche après la boulangerie et je me suis retrouvée sur une grande place" -> sounds normal to me
"J'ai pris à gauche après la boulangerie et je me suis retrouvée sur une grand-place" -> sounds wierd.

"Grand-mère" is different, no one thinks of it as meaning "big", it's a completely set expression. It is very commonly used while not every town has a place called "grand-" something.


----------



## jekoh

It sounds wrong because you say _*une* grand-place !_

_"J'ai pris à gauche après la boulangerie et je me suis retrouvée sur *la* grand-place" _sounds perfectly normal.

"_L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place_" sounds like you know it's usually called _la grand-place_ but still insist on calling it something funny instead, problably in some kind of hypercorrection.


----------



## admetus

Out of curiosity, when speaking, would you pronounce the '_d_' in "_la grand-place_" (ɡʁɑ̃ or ɡʁɑ̃d)?


----------



## Michelvar

admetus said:


> would you pronounce the '_d_' in "_la grand-place_"


No, we wouldn't.


----------



## admetus

Thanks!


----------



## Kecha

jekoh said:


> It sounds wrong because you say _*une* grand-place !_
> 
> _"J'ai pris à gauche après la boulangerie et je me suis retrouvée sur *la* grand-place" _sounds perfectly normal.
> 
> "_L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place_" sounds like you know it's usually called _la grand-place_ but still insist on calling it something funny instead, problably in some kind of hypercorrection.



I asked by boyfriend for his opinion about "la grande place" versus "la grand-place".

He said "in the first case, the square happens to be big, in the second case, it is the actual name of the square".

You are right that it can't really be "_une_ grand-place", if it's the name, it's "_la_ grand-place".

"la/une grande place" just describes the square as being big : 
je me suis retrouvée sur une grande place / sur la grande place, tu sais, celle avec les arbres.
(could be called "grand-place" or "place de la République" for all we know)

I rest my case that using "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but you know full well is called something else would be wierd.
(Insisting on calling "grande place" a place you perfectly know is called "grand-place" is wierd too by the way).


----------



## broglet

jekoh said:


> "_L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place_" sounds like you know it's usually called _la grand-place_ but still insist on calling it something funny instead, problably in some kind of hypercorrection.


Pas forcément. Par exemple: _Il y a deux places dans le village, une grande place et une petite place. L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place._
What would make you think that the square was usually called la grand-place, what is 'funny' about it and what does it have to do with hypercorrection?


----------



## admetus

(Steed, meet crop?)

Donc, si j'ai bien suivi ce fil, on peut dire: "_on se retrouve sur la *grand-place*_" ("_Meet at the *main square*_"), et ceci resterait idiomatique, quel que soit le nom ou la taille de ladite place. La grand-place serait "_the main square_", la place la plus importante, non pour sa taille, mais pour des raisons historiques ou culturelles, de l'agglomération.


----------



## jekoh

admetus said:


> Donc, si j'ai bien suivi ce fil, on peut dire: "_on se retrouve sur la *grand-place*_" ("_Meet at the *main square*_"), et ceci resterait idiomatique, quel que soit le nom ou la taille de ladite place. La grand-place serait "_the main square_", la place la plus importante, non pour sa taille, mais pour des raisons historiques ou culturelles, de l'agglomération.


Exactement.

Ceci dit, dans la plupart des villes, il n'y a pas de place qui soit unanimement reconnue comme étant la principale. Dans ces villes, le terme est donc inusité, mais même là il serait compris et on vous demanderait simplement de préciser de quelle place vous parlez, parmi les deux ou trois qui pourraient correspondre à cette appellation.

Bien sûr, on peut toujours tomber sur quelqu'un qui a peu de vocabulaire et sera surpris qu'on emploie un terme qu'il n'utilise pas lui-même...


----------



## jekoh

broglet said:


> Pas forcément. Par exemple: _Il y a deux places dans le village, une grande place et une petite place. L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place._


Pas forcément, c'est vrai : bien sûr qu'on peut réussir à trouver un cas où on décrit correctement la grand-place comme étant la plus grande parmi deux.

Même dans votre exemple, _L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande place _n'est pas très idiomatique, on dirait plutôt _L'hôtel de ville se trouve sur la grande._



broglet said:


> What would make you think that the square was usually called la grand-place, what is 'funny' about it and what does it have to do with hypercorrection?


The mere presence of the town hall is typical of a _grand-place, _and since the town hall is usually to be found on a big square, saying it's on "_la grande place_" is not very desciptive at all. If a square is readily identifiable as the main square, people will call it _la place principale, la place du village, la grand-place. _What going out of your way to call it something else has to do with hypercorrection is explained above: apparently some people think the word is archaic and sounds "peasant-ish".


----------



## jekoh

Kecha said:


> I asked by boyfriend for his opinion about "la grande place" versus "la grand-place".
> 
> He said "in the first case, the square happens to be big, in the second case, it is the actual name of the square".


_Grand-place_ doesn't need to be the actual name of the square for it to be called that. That's simply not true. It does mean main square in general. People arriving from another town are likely to ask for the _grand-place, _little do they know if that's the square's official name, or even if there is one such square.



Kecha said:


> I rest my case that using "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but you know full well is called something else would be wierd.


I don't think anyone argued in favour of using _grand-place_ to describe a random square that happens to be big. To the contrary the argument is that _grand-place _describes a town's main square, disirregardless of its size.


----------



## Chimel

Quand je disais hier qu'on s'ingénie parfois à compliquer ce qui est simple...

Soit une ville possède un espace qui est officiellement appelé 'Grand-Place' (et qui est généralement la plus grande place de la ville, mais pas toujours, peu importe). C'est le nom qui figure sur le plaques de rue, l'adresse postale... comme les Champs-Elysées ou la Promenade des Anglais. On peut donc demander le chemin de la grand-place, dire qu'on travaille près de la grand-place... (je laisse de côté la question des majuscules ou minuscules...).

Soit elle n'en possède pas. En Wallonie, c'est par exemple le cas de Liège ou de Namur. Dans ce cas, forcément, personne ne va dire qu'il habite ou travaille près de la grand-place puisqu'elle n'existe pas !

Si un étranger demande le chemin de la grand-place, on va probablement lui dire qu'il n'y en a pas. C'est ce que je ferais personnellement à Liège ou à Namur. Ou alors, s'il y a vraiment une _grande place_ dans la ville, on va lui répondre: "Vous voulez dire la place Stanislas?" (à Nancy, par exemple). Mais on est dans le même cas que si quelqu'un demande le chemin de la "gare centrale", dans une ville où il y aurait plusieurs gares dont aucune ne porte officiellement ce nom-là.


----------



## jekoh

Chimel said:


> Soit une ville possède un espace qui est officiellement appelé 'Grand-Place'
> [...]
> Soit elle n'en possède pas. En Wallonie, c'est par exemple le cas de Liège ou de Namur. Dans ce cas, forcément, personne ne va dire qu'il habite ou travaille près de la grand-place puisqu'elle n'existe pas !


Il existe un troisième cas dans lequel la ville ne possède pas d'espace officiellement appelé 'Grand-Place', mais possède quand même une grand-place, que les habitants, et plus encore les gens venant de l'extérieur, appellent ainsi. Par exemple : Lille, Cambrai...


----------



## broglet

Kecha said:


> Arras festival that is located at "La Grand-Place" is called "Main Square festival". "Grand-place" is indeed the actual name as on the street maps and signs.
> 
> Saying "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else would sound very peasant-ish to my parisian ear. As said before, masculine "grand" and the hyphen marks an archaism. If I need to describe a big square I don't know the name of, I would say "la grande place" most definitely.





jekoh said:


> since the town hall is usually to be found on a big square, saying it's on "_la grande place_" is not very desciptive at all. If a square is readily identifiable as the main square, people will call it _la place principale, la place du village, la grand-place. _What going out of your way to call it something else has to do with hypercorrection is explained above: apparently some people think the word is archaic and sounds "peasant-ish".



Hi jekoh

I think you misunderstood Kecha.  He didn't say that the word was archaic _per se_; he said it was an archaism. This is not any form of criticism, but merely a matter of fact.  Nor did he say it sounded 'peasant-ish' but he merely said that _its misuse _would sound peasant-ish. With the greatest of respect I would suggest you read posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions about what people are saying.

Also, although it is true that the town hall is often to be found on a big square this is by no means universally true. The town hall of Montfrin, for example, is not on any kind of square at all but it is on the Grand-Rue (which is not called the Grand-Rue and is not a particularly _grande _rue either).

I hope this makes things clearer.


----------



## jekoh

broglet said:


> I think you misunderstood Kecha.  He didn't say that the word was archaic _per se_; he said it was an archaism. This is not any form of criticism, but merely a matter of fact.  Nor did he say it sounded 'peasant-ish' but he merely said that _its misuse _would sound peasant-ish. With the greatest of respect I would suggest you read posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions about what people are saying.


It might be what she intended to say, but what she actually said was : "_Saying "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else_". There is nothing to indicate that this is a "misuse" : saying _grand-place_ to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else is not necessarily a misuse of the word.


----------



## broglet

jekoh said:


> It might be what she intended to say, but what she actually said was : "_Saying "grand-place" to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else_". There is nothing to indicate that this is a "misuse" : saying _grand-place_ to describe a square that happens to be big but is called something else is not necessarily a misuse of the word.


Saying 'grand-place' to _describe_ the size of a square is always a misuse.  Using 'grand-place' to _refer_ to a square may not be. The point is that the 'grand' in grand-place does not mean 'big'.


----------



## jekoh

Not only was that distinction obviously not part of Kecha's post, but it's not even true.


----------



## Kecha

wow, big debate for a tiny issue (and I'm a woman btw).

Just to clarify:

Broglet said:


> Just one further point, if anyone explains where he works by saying it is "près de la grand-place" he is probably not _describing_ the square but is saying he works near the square which is _called _"(La) Grand-Place"



James Bates asking "Are you sure?" prompted my "peasant" comment (probably not the smartest way to put it, I guess).

I don't think any square can be "readily identifiable" as the main square unless it's a tiny tiny village (in which case it might just be "la place" if there's just the one). Any city would have several squares that could be potential candidates. "Main" in terms of what, historical value, closeness to the center, number of inhabitants, size, thickness of pigeon droppings?

By the way Place du Général de Gaulle in Lille _was _called "Grand-place" before 1944 (obviously) which explains the persistence today (it used to be "place du marché" and was called "Grand-place" because of the split from the "Petite place").


----------

