# invented languages (esperanto)



## panjabigator

I have read a little bit on Esperanto, and it sounds like a good idea...a common tongue that everyone would have to learn, ideally making English speaker's equal to a say a Chinese speaker...both would have to learn a foreign language instead of the Chinese speaker learning English.  I have also heard that Esperanto is most popular in East europe, and according to wikipedia (not really reliable...I know), there are some monolingual speakers.  What do you all you think about it?

I was just reading something on another invented language, but it sounds like a joke: http://www.beginnersgame.com/esata.html


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## Pivra

How could anyone be a monolingual in Esperanto?


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## panjabigator

One site I read said that some people were so fond of the language they only spoke it to their kids...


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## cuchuflete

There have been at least four other threads on this topic, the most recent just a few months ago:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=111421

In that thread, in post #4, you will find references to three other threads on the same or related topics.


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## Brioche

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I have read a little bit on Esperanto, and it sounds like a good idea...a common tongue that everyone would have to learn, ideally making English speaker's equal to a say a Chinese speaker...both would have to learn a foreign language instead of the Chinese speaker learning English. I have also heard that Esperanto is most popular in East europe, and according to wikipedia (not really reliable...I know), there are some monolingual speakers. What do you all you think about it?


 
If there are some monolingual speakers of Esperanto, they must be the children of Esperantists who have been permitted to mix only with other Esperantists. Highly unlikely. There are "mother tongue" or "first language" Esperantists, whose parents use Esperanto in the family.

Esperanto is a good idea [damn with faint praise!], but it has many problems. 

It has non-standard letters in its alphabet - ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ĵ, ŝ and ŭ.
ĉ = ch, ĝ = g as in general, ĥ = Spanish j, ĵ = French j, ŝ = sh and ŭ = w.
so it is difficult to write with a normal typewriter, and you need the right sort of fonts on your computer. Instead of using the letters with hats, you can write cx, gx, hx etc, which looks really ugly.

Along with the unnecessary letters, it has unnecessary sounds. Ordinary h does not exits in many languages, why have the extra hard ĥ, in a supposedly easy to learn language?

The sound system is very poorly thought out - at a guess I'd say that Zamenhof [creator of the language] never thought about it at all. He more or less reproduced the sound system of the slavic languages spoken in his part of Poland. No consideration at all was given to how hard the sounds, or their groupings, would be for non-Europeans.

Esperanto has complicated grammar. Who needs an accusative case? Who needs plural marking? Who needs adjectival agreement in number and case?
Who really needs verbal tenses? If the time when something happens is important, why not use adverbs?

Then there's the vocabulary problem. Esperanto has a system of suffixes and prefixes, and aggutination so that new words can be built from the basic roots - which should make things easy.

However, Esperanto has been poisoned by francophones. French is not well-adapted to creating new words from old. English has no trouble combining the ideas of freeze and dry to make "freeze-dried coffee". The French cannot combine _congeler_ and _sécher_, so for freeze-drying they used a Greek word _lyophilisation_.

English (and Esperanto) can combine ‘_self_’ and ‘_teach_’ to get “_self-taught_”, but French cannot; again they go to Greek for _autodidact_. So the francophones introduce the completely unnecessary word _aŭ__todidakto_ into Esperanto.

So for just about every idea, which can be expressed using basic Esperanto – and thus understood by someone who has learned the basic roots – there is an extra Greek or Latinate neo-Esperanto word. 

These words are no trouble for educated francophones, as they have generally be taken straight from French, but they are a nightmare for everyone else.

It has many anomalies. The numbers up to 1000s are numbers. After that they are nouns. So you can say _two __thousand men_, but you have to say _two million*s of *men_.


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## danielfranco

Might as well speak Klingon or Huttese... Or, better yet, find the planet where the dreaded babelfish first evolved, no? That way we can speak whatever and be understood by everyone!


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## maxiogee

panjabigator said:
			
		

> ideally making English speaker's equal to a say a Chinese speaker...both would *have to *learn a foreign language instead of the Chinese speaker learning English.[/URL]


(my emphasis)

No-one "has to" learn anything - many get by without even learning their mother tongue correctly.


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## almostfreebird

I like to learn foreign language(I mean English and Spanish personally so far) not only to communicate, but because I'm rather interested in their culture(cinema, music, history etc,).
For sure I can't master many other languages to communicate ,even one language maybe,it's impossible.
But I don't feel like to learn Esperanto because there's no attractive culture(movie,music, history etc) behind it(for me). I'd like body language better than that.


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## Etcetera

I know there are some works of literature in Esperanto, but of course, it's not so bright, interesting, attractive as English or Spanish literature is. That's (in my opinion) the main reason why Esperanto hasn't became anything significant.


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## OCCASVS

Mi pensi ĝi estas tre bona lingvo! Do mi estas lernanta ĝin.
Sed, ĉu ne estas esperantistoj en la forumo? (pardonu al mi ĉar mia malbona esperanto)
---
I think it's a very good language! So I'm learning it.
But isn't there any "esperantisto" in the forum? (sorry for my bad esperanto)


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## lizd64

I have heard from a great French interpreter (George Kersaudy) that Esperanto is very useful for people who want to learn other languages. As it is a combination of many different languages, then once you have learnt it you can learn other languages faster and more easily... I don't speak Esperanto myself (at the moment... but I will surely learn it one day!) so I can't say if that is true, yet he seemed to know what he was talking about


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## Brioche

OCCASVS said:
			
		

> Mi pensas, ke ĝi estas tre bona lingvo! Do mi estas lernanta ĝin.
> Sed, ĉu ne estas esperantistoj en la forumo? (pardonu al mi ĉar pro mia malbona esperanto)
> ---
> I think it's a very good language! So I'm learning it.
> But isn't there any "esperantisto" in the forum? (sorry for my bad esperanto)


 
It would be better Esperanto to say "_mi lernas ĝin_".
The compound tenses should be avoided.
The present continuous causes enough problems for learners of English, so there is no need to inflict it on learners of Esperanto - one language in which it is totally unnecessary.


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## OCCASVS

Thank you for checking my sentences 
I'm in an early stage of learning esperanto, so I'm not fluent at all.

It's very useful to know that compound tenses shouldn't be used when possible.
I tend to mix Italian and English grammars when thinking sentences in esperanto.


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## pafu

Hello, this is Pafu, author/inventor of the Esata language. Esata is certainly not a joke. It is a serious attempt to design a modern personal language which can used by anyone. There is a complete description of the language on my website, just do a websearch for esata language.  

Esata is a vastly simplified form of English which has been internationalized to a high degree. It supports the inclusion of dialects from all other major world languages, as well as the definition of specialized technical vocabularies, using a new language construct called 'phrase words.' 

The phrase word approach to vocabulary building allows anyone to coin and use new terms which can be easily understood by others, because their meanings can be inferred from meanings of the component syllables. 

Esata is designed to be easy to learn for anyone with any familiarity with English. It is proposed as a personal language, allowing English speakers to use it to communicate in private with their friends (like slang). It is also intended as a new Creole for anyone who wants to gain practical fluency in an English dialect in the shortest possible time.

I would be glad to respond to any questions or comments anyone may have on the Esata language.

regards


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## shaloo

Sounds very interesting Pafu.
Let me go on a websearch for esata.
Catch u soon

Shaloo

Edit:: ........WELCOME TO OUR WR FORUMS !!


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## shaloo

buongiorno!

I hav'nt ever heard about your invention.......Esata, but it sounds interesting ....
I've just browsed the webpages and went through your website.
A good introduction, I should say.

I took a glance at the alphabet, but...don't you think people like me....learning two foreign languages at the same time would get confused with the pronunciation of this new one?
In the first place,the basic european languages are interrelated and with another creation like Esata, do you think the grammar and construction of sentences would not confuse beginners(or any one, for that matter)?

Of course, this is only my firsthand opinion about Esata. But I want to clarify this, otherwise, at the end all my languages would probably bring up another new Esata(that'll be a difficult one, a mixture of Indian and European Languages.... ). 

Cheers 

Shaloo


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## ErOtto

@ pafu:

So, do I understand well Esata = "englisch know talk"  

I think a "worldwide-used-language" will be a problem until the word "nationalism" is not banned from every mind... and every dictionary, of course  

Salü
ErOtto

PS.- I´ve found a disavantage of a "worldwide-used-language"... forums like this one wouldn´t exist


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## pafu

in response to Shaloo:

The pronounciation of Esata is straightforward, every letter has a unique sound. This also allows speakers of all language backgrounds to pronounce without difficulty, because there are no complex vowels, no long and short sounds, no dipthongs, no consonant clusters, and in general, none of the things that make pronounciation difficult in any language. English is is dreadful in this respect, having the most irregular spelling of any modern European language that I know. This is a real stumbling block for those attempting to learn it, and a major reason why English in its current form will not be the world's common language, at least without a major rewrite.

The esata alphabet is completely optional, I just wanted to show that it is possible to invent new and improved alphabets, just as it is possible to invent new spoken languages. The Esata alphabet does have some novel features however, that should stimulate those who are interested in this area. In particular, it allows to code 4 normal characters in a single Esata character, and the pronounciation of an Esata character can be determined by logical rules, not just from memorization.

Esata grammar is based on English, and is quite straightforward, it just simplifies it and eliminates the irregularities. 

I certainly do not agree that learning Esata would cause confusion to those who are trying to learn English or other European languages. Esata is really just a simple form of English which supports a highly internationalized vocabulary and a great variety of dialects. Plus, as almost anyone who has learned many languages would agree, the more languages you learn, the easier it becomes to learn another one! 

feyu tra Esata, yuvisi hebi vegu!


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## Aldin

I don't think Esperanto is a good idea,the idea of one international language is great.English is not that good option because there are native speakers and they would be in advatage.I think that international language should be LINGUA LATINA,it's dead language so noone would have advantage over that matter.Not traditional Latin,but Classical Latin.


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## justjukka

I like the idea of everyone learning a universal language aside from their own.  The only difficulty with that would be convincing extremists that the language isn't evil and theirs isn't superior to others.  I have friends who feel that _everyone_ should learn English.  I wouldn't like that, seeing as I'm studying to become a linguist.  And English has rules that seem impossible in other languages.

I need to take a look at this Esperanto language, now.


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## vince

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I have read a little bit on Esperanto, and it sounds like a good idea...a common tongue that everyone would have to learn, ideally making English speaker's equal to a say a Chinese speaker...both would have to learn a foreign language instead of the Chinese speaker learning English. I have also heard that Esperanto is most popular in East europe, and according to wikipedia (not really reliable...I know), there are some monolingual speakers. What do you all you think about it?



Esperanto seems too western Indo-European. I think it's easy for western Europeans (except perhaps monolingual Euskara speakers) but for speakers of Japanese or even Indian, it must be hard due to the unfamiliarity of grammar and vocabulary.

But I guess the systematization is the benefit.


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## panjabigator

And ideally there are no irregulars.


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## emiliocid

Hello everybody. I am esperanto teacher for 25 years, and first of all I apoligise for my broken english. I am very glad to see that this discussion has a high level, with people who a least research a bit. 

Esperanto is often victim of many misconceptions. The most famous is that esperanto wants to be the only language in the world. Esperanto is meant to be the 2nd. (or 3rd, 4rth, ...) language. 

The mother tongue is the most import, because in that language we learned to think. As esperanto is not anymore an project, and it is a real language, there are some esperanto native speakers, but certanly they are native speaker in other language. I´ve never heard of people that speak only esperanto. 

Esperanto in fact is more close to western languages, almost 60% of latin. But even so, it´s still easy for eastern people. Chinese, japanese, arabic people speak esperanto better than english or spanish. 

TV in esperanto   

internacia (dot) tv

Emilio Cid
Sao Paulo - Brazil


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## remush

> Esperanto is a good idea [damn with faint praise!], but it has many problems. 

You may find an answer to your remarks, and many others at //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm

More precisely about:
spelling:  //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm#150
phonetics: //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm#036
grammar: //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm#151
vocabulary: //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm#152
numbers: //users.telenet.be/raymond.gerard/esperanto/replies.htm#073 


Remuŝ (Belgio)


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