# Видение



## 1lightinthedark

Hey everyone! My question after looking at the dictionary entries is how does one say this word: Видение. On here one dictionary entry says ви́дение, while the other says виде́ние.


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## Rosett

It is two different words.


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## Maroseika

Видение - vision 
Видение - phantom


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## Slavianophil

In fact, "видЕние" can also be translated as 'vision' in many cases.

For example, 'Преподобный трижды удостаивался видЕния Божией Матери" - 'The holy monk had three visions of the Thetokos'.

As far as my knowledge of English allows me to judge, I would say that вИдение means 'perspective, approach, view' - "Моё вИдение проблемы".

ВидЕние is 'vision' in the meaning of 'dream of similar experience, esp. of religious kind': 'Jesus came to Paul in a vision' - "Христос явился Павлу в видЕнии". From this comes "сновидЕние" - "dream" (in sleep).


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## Maroseika

Slavianophil said:


> In fact, "видЕние" can also be translated as 'vision' in many cases.
> 
> For example, 'Преподобный трижды удостаивался видЕния Божией Матери" - 'The holy monk had three visions of the Thetokos'.


Isn't it exacly what I called 'phantom'? Or for the religious people this is reality and not a phantom?


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## Slavianophil

Of course, Orthodox Christians believe that Jesus Christ, His Most Holy Mother, angels and saints who departed from this life, can actually appear to people. These are called authentic visions, as opposed to hallucinations (caused by mental illness) and misleading diabolical apparitions. 

But I object to the word 'phantom' on purely linguistic grounds as well. According to the _Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary,_  a 'phantom' is 1. a) a ghost, 2. a) any imagined thing, an illusion - phantom visions created by a tormented mind b) anything that has been thought or said to exist but does not: The very much publicised world marked turned out to be a phantom.

So, first of all, Jesus Christ or the Theotokos, no matter whether you believe in their actual appearance (or existence), are not ghosts. The other two meanings, judging by the examples given in the dictionary, are applied more to things, than to persons. And, besides, a vision in the religious sense of the word is not a thing or a person, but an event. 

A vision of the Theotokos is not Theotokos Herself, but an event of Her visible appearance to someone. So even, if you do not believe in Her appearance, you can consider that a phantom was seen and not actually She. But the event of seeing this supposed phantom cannot be called a phantom, it would be called a (false) vision.


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## morzh

Context...maybe?


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## 1lightinthedark

Thank you so much everyone! This helped a lot.


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## Ben Jamin

Slavianophil said:


> In fact, "видЕние" can also be translated as 'vision' in many cases.
> 
> For example, 'Преподобный трижды удостаивался видЕния Божией Матери" - 'The holy monk had three visions of the Thetokos'.
> 
> As far as my knowledge of English allows me to judge, I would say that вИдение means 'perspective, approach, view' - "Моё вИдение проблемы".
> 
> ВидЕние is 'vision' in the meaning of 'dream of similar experience, esp. of religious kind': 'Jesus came to Paul in a vision' - "Христос явился Павлу в видЕнии". From this comes "сновидЕние" - "dream" (in sleep).


I think that no English speaker, except those being Orthodox Christians, will understand The*o*tokos (Virgin Mary).


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## Slavianophil

Yes, sorry for this very stupid misprint.


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## Christo Tamarin

Maroseika said:


> Видение - vision
> Видение - phantom


Видение - vision: the result of a visual action performed by me (by the subject), produced by me (by the subject). In Bulgarian: виждане.

Видение - a vision given to me (to the subject), produced by somebody else. In Bulgarian same as in Russian.


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## Ptak

Another example:
_Режиссерское видение спектакля_ - that is, how the director sees his future performance; what he thinks it should be.


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## morzh

Ben Jamin said:


> I think that no English speaker, except those being Orthodox Christians, will understand The*o*tokos (Virgin Mary).



Most educated people who go to church will. Theotokos is the same for Lutherans or Orthodox, or Catholics.
Also Theotokos is not the same as Virgin Mary. This is a synecdoche, but as the Church terminology is very precise (and Ecumenical councils, resulting in new heresies declared were summoned due to little disagreements), and even this one mulling on "Vision of Theotokos is not same as Theotokos", I am not sure one could simply substitute Theotokos for "Virgin Mary". It is a question for theologists.

In the meantime "*ВидЕ'ние Божией Матери (Богоматери)*" is what I think it is, when translated.


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## Ben Jamin

morzh said:


> Most educated people who go to church will. Theotokos is the same for Lutherans or Orthodox, or Catholics.
> Also Theotokos is not the same as Virgin Mary. This is a synecdoche, but as the Church terminology is very precise (and Ecumenical councils, resulting in new heresies declared were summoned due to little disagreements), and even this one mulling on "Vision of Theotokos is not same as Theotokos", I am not sure one could simply substitute Theotokos for "Virgin Mary". It is a question for theologists.
> 
> In the meantime "*ВидЕ'ние Божией Матери (Богоматери)*" is what I think it is, when translated.


It seems to me that there is a contradiction in your reasoning: 
1. "Theotokos is the same for Lutherans or Orthodox, or Catholics." and 
2. "Also Theotokos is not the same as Virgin Mary"
Both statements can't be true.
Jesus' mother is theologically something completely different for the members of reformed churches and for the Orthodox and Catholics on the other side. The "Protestants" do not worship her as a saint (they worship no saints). Moreover, just try to mention the name Theotokos to some randomely chosen well educated Catholics, Aglicans or Lutherans, and note if they ever heard of it. If I had not learned to read modern Greek, and some basic Greek, and visited Greek churches in Greece, I would never had any idea about this name.


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## Tomarenko

I'd rather for apparition instead of phantom in the 2nd case - видЕние.


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## morzh

Tomarenko said:


> I'd rather for apparition instead of phantom in the 2nd case - видЕние.



It can be "vision", "apparition", or even "appearance" (явление, but used interchangeably in reports).


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## Ben Jamin

morzh said:


> I do not want to create a theological discussion here, so I'll try to be brief:
> 
> 1. "Theotokos" is the title of Mary, "God Bearer". To say it is the same is equating a person and the person's title. Even if in Mary's case the title is so unique that it is reserved strictly for her.
> 
> 2. One does not have to know Greek to know Greek words. We, English speakers, all use the expressions like "Hoi polloi" and words like "pantheon" without having to learn any Greek; So one does not have to learn Koine and to read the whole Septuagint to know the "Theotokos".
> 
> The differences between the Sister Churches are rather superficial and mostly in rites; rites were always local and even within the same denomination may differ vastly. Suffices it to say that the Churches in question went through the 7 Ecumenical councils together and this ensures they are essentially the same, save the "Filioque" and profound disdain for each other.
> 
> Theotokos is the very basic concept for all churches, whether they use the translation "Mother of God" (Matka Boska, Bogomater) or not, as the title was defined during 3-rd council of Efesus, and then even now "non-sister" churches were united, so the concept is common. It comes before Mary being a saint or not being a saint, and all the rites' differences that exist today.


 
As this is a language, not theology forum I propose to finish this discussion.


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