# Rolling in one's grave



## AsifAkheir

Rolling in ones grave

I used this expression in a previous post and Jerry Chan translated it for me as
死不瞑目 (dead with one's eyes open). 
'si bu ming mu'

But then  shiyii left this comment:

"we can hardly see this kind of expressions,(as you know,we consider it a bit disrespects the deceased)"




 "It's just like making fun of Jesus in front of a buncha atheists,no big  deal.But you'd just care not to crack this joke on ppl's departed  relatives."

If there is any disrepect towards the dead, then that is a wrong translation.

If I say to somene "your father must be rolling in his grave" I am implying your father was an honorable man and you have done something to dishonour him. The part about 'Rolling in his grave' is to suggest an image of someone, so offended that he is trying to come back from death, in order to punish the one who violated his honour.

So can anyone suggest a Chinese expression that captures the spirit of the English expression 'Rolling in ones grave' ?​


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## yuechu

> If there is any disrepect towards the dead, then that is a wrong translation.


I think that this expression can be potentially disrespectful in English too (although this usually is not the intent), it depends on the context in which one uses it.

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> "we can hardly see this kind of expressions,(as you know,we consider it a bit disrespects the deceased)"


Yes, in my experience, I think that most Chinese have more beliefs in the dead and ghosts and hence the reason to be more cautious about using certain expressions. Whenever I have heard people say "rolling in one's grave", it is usually in a joking way..  but once again, that may just be my personal association (as it can also be used in a more serious way). Either way, death (especially of one's loved ones) is often a subject to be avoided for obvious reasons and is in general more taboo in Chinese culture.
(ex. superstitions around the number 4, not giving clocks as gifts (which I did by mistake once. !!! definitely not good), not writing in red, not putting chopsticks vertical in rice, etc)

--

As for any alternative translations, I will allow the Sinophones to answer!


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## sammik

The fittest expression I think is 变成鬼也不放过你,or 死也不放过你 which means I'd give you hell even I myself went to hell, if translated literally. But going one step futher, the expression usually appears in plays and novels given that the expression is so colloquail in use and offensive as a curse. If you'd use this expression, you MUST take care not to hurt people's feeling, esp. when speaking of something bad or formal. You can use it only if the one you are talking to is your good friend and does sth wrong to another one, and you want to give him your own concern in a light tone. Otherwise we don't use it quite much.
从字面上讲，即使我变成鬼了，我也不让你安生，我也要让你变成鬼。所以进一步讲，这是个语气很重的词，因而我们只能在好朋友 轻微 冒犯了 某人时才用作戏谑之语。 如果用在一些正式场合，或者一些哀伤的场合，这将是一种诅咒，是会激怒别人的。

BTW, did I translate my statement correctly into English? If not, don't hesitate to tell me. THX!


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## AsifAkheir

Hi baosheng,

You say:
"Whenever I have heard people say "rolling in one's grave", it is usually in a joking way"

The  usual way of joking about it is to use this expression about people who  are still alive. Because then you can say to the other person: "What  you've done so horrible and so contrary to the values of 'Mr Soandso'  that if he heard about it, it would first kill him and then motivate him  to come back from the dead to punish you for your infraction".

The butt of the joke is the person you are speaking to, not the person you are referring to.

Anyway, 死不瞑目(si bu ming mu), seems not to be correct, or too easily misunderstood ?

This,  by the way, is not recent and not limited to English. There are  probably equivalent expressions all over Europe. In Spanish it's  "revolcarse en la tumba". Maybe speakers of other languges can come up  with more.

Here is a link to good description of the phrase:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_in_one's_grave

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Thank you sammik

 "变成鬼也不放过你,or 死也不放过你 = I'd give you hell even I myself went to hell"

This  seems closer, but it is still "my" personal attack on "you". What I'm looking for is third party, preferably famous, who would lend weight to "my" opinion about "you". That way "I" am just reminding you that this person, famous for being against what "you've" done, would be shocked at "you".

I don't know if that's clear.


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## Ghabi

Hi! My mom always says: 死都俾你激返生 "[Seeing what you've done], he/she/they would sure come back to life [in a rage]". But this is not Mandarin, and this doesn't necessarily concern a deceased. It can also be used like "that (what you've done) is enough to drive one nuts!"


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## AsifAkheir

Hey Gabi,

死都俾你激返生 "[Seeing what you've done], he/she/they would sure come back to life [in a rage]".

I think you and your mother may have hit the nail right on the head.

si dou bei ni qi fan sheng -- is this the correct pinyin spelling?


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## Ghabi

Hi again! This is not Mandarin; in Cantonese Jyutping this is transliterated as: sei2 dou1 bei2lei5 gik1faan1saang1.


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## AsifAkheir

OK, Ghabi
let me use an example. I was asked to translate this expression: 用我的经验让他们少走弯路

And this is what I came up with:
Let them use my experience to make fewer detours (errors)
Let them benefit from my experience.

Then I remembered how much Zhuangzi was against the transmission of morality from the 'wise' to the 'ignorant' the old 'exprienced people' to the young 'inexperienced' people etc... So I said something like:

You can say that but, I'm sure Zhuang zi is 'rolling in his grave'.

Now if I wanted to use your mother's expression I could say:

"听你说的话 庄子 死都俾你激返生"

Am I on the right track ?


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## tarlou

Hi,

I think there is a common Mandarin phrase 死了都能被你气活 equivalent to Ghabi's phrase. Normally one can anger a person to death. To anger a dead person to live is a funny way to express disagree.

I'd say 听了你的话，庄子都能气活. (If had heard what you said, Zhuangzi would be irritated back to life.)


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## AsifAkheir

Thank you tarlou

听了你的话，庄子都能气活

I think I'll use that as my signature from now on. I'm tired of 知者不言，言者不知

Or is it still offensive ?


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## tarlou

AsifAkheir said:


> Thank you tarlou
> 
> 听了你的话，庄子都能气活
> 
> I think I'll use that as my signature from now on. I'm tired of 知者不言，言者不知
> 
> Or is it still offensive ?



It's not offensive to Zhuangzi. In fact, I think it shows your respect to Zhuangzi, because you are protecting his theory (at least you think you are doing so).
(Even if it was offensive there would be no problem. There are tons of jokes and pictures making fun of dead celebrities created every day. There are also harsh criticisms towards the dead too.)

Maybe it's a little bit offensive to the person that you are speaking to, because the phrase shows you disagree with him/her...


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## AsifAkheir

"I think it shows your respect to Zhuangzi, because you are protecting his theory (at least you think you are doing so)"

I'm making a joke. I just wanted your reaction on the possibility of seeing this phrase as signature in a forum, that's all. I understand enough about Daoism to know you can't 'protect' anything, except maybe your own ignorance.

As for offending the person I'm talking to -- it all depends on whether our previous relationship allows this to be good natured or not. I guess I'll play that by ear.

 Thanks baosheng, sammik, Ghabi, tarlou,
you've all been a tremendous help.


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## AsifAkheir

Hi Jackynembrey,

Yes I can: 4 year bachelor's degree in Asian Studies with a Chinese major, and 5 years living abroad in China. Oh, and don't forget a Chinese spouse.

Or you can take your chances with Google Translate. (not recommended)


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## xilili

How about"气的从坟墓里跳出来"?


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## sammik

OK I take it you want a phrase from a third party stand point, but among all the expressions I know, mostly in Beijing dialect, there is no certain phrase that concisely express such things. If we encounter a situation that a friend of yours did something wrong and you wanna crack a joke on him, you can say Mr soandso don't want you do so， like 你爷爷都不愿意（你爷爷已经去世了）；谁谁谁都不愿意（谁谁谁是在这方面已经够可以了，你说谁谁谁不愿意的话就是朋友做的太过分了）
I hope it helps.

汉语博大精深，典籍众多，成语熟语更是数不胜数，本国普通人也不一定就用到这些，更多的是直接表达意思即可。


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## AsifAkheir

tarlou's suggestion seems to be pretty good: "听了你的话，庄子都能气活" tingle nide hua, Zhuangzi dou neng qi huo.

xilili's also may work: "气的从坟墓里跳出来" qi de cong fen mu li tiao chulai
Can I use the same pattern? Like: 听了你的话，庄子气的从坟墓里跳出来. Or is it a different sentence structure?

I'm not sure I understand sammik's suggestion.


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## liannaly

baosheng said:


> Yes, in my experience, I think that most Chinese have more beliefs in the dead and ghosts and hence the reason to be more cautious about using certain expressions. Whenever I have heard people say "rolling in one's grave", it is usually in a joking way..  but once again, that may just be my personal association (as it can also be used in a more serious way). Either way, death (especially of one's loved ones) is often a subject to be avoided for obvious reasons and is in general more taboo in Chinese culture.
> (ex. superstitions around the number 4, not giving clocks as gifts (which I did by mistake once. !!! definitely not good), not writing in red, not putting chopsticks vertical in rice, etc)



You are right. You know a lot of Chinese culture, hehe. And here, we just don't write people's names in red. It's not good. But as a Beijinger, with people you are familiar with or when I'm busy to take notes, I will write names in red, haha.


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## AsifAkheir

liannaly,
thanks for confirming my first attempt at translating this phrase, in the original thread.

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我敢肯定，庄子在他的坟墓里打滚
Here "rolling in his grave" shows that someone overthrew some of his  theories/ideas, he didn't feel good. But as a dead person, he just could  move in his grave if he wanted. It's a kind of modification. I think  your translation is ok. It's also a kind of humor. 				
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So now there are three possibilities to express this idea.

我敢肯定，庄子在他的坟墓里打滚
wo kang ken ding, Zhuangzi zai tade fen muli da gun

死了都能被你气活
sile dou neng bei ni qihuo
听了你的话，庄子都能气活.

气的从坟墓里跳出来 
qi de cong fen mu li tiao chulai
听了你的话，庄子气的从坟墓里跳出来.

in your opinion liannaly,
which one is funniest?
Or, can you think of an even funnier way?


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## SuperXW

AsifAkheir said:


> So now there are three possibilities to express this idea.
> 
> 我敢肯定，庄子在他的坟墓里打滚
> wo kang ken ding, Zhuangzi zai tade fen muli da gun
> 
> 死了都能被你气活
> sile dou neng bei ni qihuo
> 听了你的话，庄子都能气活.
> 
> 气的从坟墓里跳出来
> qi de cong fen mu li tiao chulai
> 听了你的话，庄子气的从坟墓里跳出来.
> 
> in your opinion liannaly,
> which one is funniest?
> Or, can you think of an even funnier way?


I would say 庄子得(dei3)气得(de)从坟墓里跳出来  is funnier than 气活, and also more understandable and idiomatic than 在他的坟墓里打滚.

If you need a translation, funny, special, understandable, idiomatic, close to the original words, I will suggest my following combined version 
听了你的话，庄子得气得在坟里打滚！


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## AsifAkheir

Alright, SuperXW !
That was fast !

听了你的话，庄子得气得在坟里打滚！
Tingle nide hua, Zhuangzi dei qide zai fen li da gun !

Ha ha ! You have to be careful when making jokes in a foreign language. It's so easy to be misunderstood.

I'm concerned about *打滚 da gun *. Does it carry the sense of *struggling to get out* or simply *rotating* ? Or does it make much difference one way or the other ?


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## SuperXW

AsifAkheir said:


> Alright, SuperXW !
> That was fast !
> 
> 听了你的话，庄子得气得在坟里打滚！
> Tingle nide hua, Zhuangzi dei qide zai fen li da gun !
> 
> Ha ha ! You have to be careful when making jokes in a foreign language. It's so easy to be misunderstood.
> 
> I'm concerned about *打滚 da gun *. Does it carry the sense of *struggling to get out* or simply *rotating* ? Or does it make much difference one way or the other ?


打滚 or 打滚儿 simply means rotating. That's why I added 气得 in front. Without 气得, people could be confused since they are not sure why zhuangzi is rotating. With 气得, clearly zhuangzi is angry. He is uncomfortable, wants to complain or something.


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## AsifAkheir

Ha ha ha !
I'm so happy I finally got a snappy thing to say to Confucians !
Do Confucians laugh ? I'm not sure.

At the risk of pushing my luck to the limit, how's this for an exaggeration based on the same theme?

这不是雷声。这是由所有的死道士的声音，气得在他们的坟里打滚。
That's not thunder。 It's the sound made by all the dead daoists, rolling angrily in their graves。


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## tarlou

AsifAkheir said:


> Ha ha ha !
> I'm so happy I finally got a snappy thing to say to Confucians !
> Do Confucians laugh ? I'm not sure.
> 
> At the risk of pushing my luck to the limit, how's this for an exaggeration based on the same theme?
> 
> 这不是雷声。这是由所有的死道士的声音，气得在他们的坟里打滚。
> That's not thunder。 It's the sound made by all the dead daoists, rolling angrily in their graves。



AsiAkheir, the jokes in this post are a bit offensive. The previous jokes are merely attacking the person you are talking to, and are assuming Zhuangzi is the correct "standard". By those sentences, you use Zhuangzi's opinion to debate with someone. However, the jokes in this post seems to be making fun of Confucianism and Taoism. It is not funny to assume the temper of a group of people and make fun of them (and use a weird exaggerated description).



> 这不是雷声。这是由所有的死道士的声音，气得在他们的坟里打滚。



I don't understand this sentence at all without your original English sentence. It's ungrammatical and very confusing.
To make it grammatically correct you can possibly say 所有死去的道士都会气得在坟墓里打滚，并发出雷鸣般的声音。 or more idiomatically 所有死了的老道都会气得在坟里暴跳如雷的！ This is fine (not as offensive as your sentence). But this is a strange sentence, hearing this I will wonder why all dead Daoists are angry but the living ones are fine.


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## SuperXW

It's getting more and more complicated.


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## AsifAkheir

Sorry tarlou,
It's not my intent to offend anyone. Just need to know what the limits are.  I would probably never come across a situation in which I would use that last expression, since there needs to be thunder in order to say it.

Having read some of the truly offensive things Zhuangzi had to say about Confucius and Confucians in general, I was under the impression that this was not a sensitive issue. Or, that at least the sensitivity had been resolved in the last 2000 years. 

http://classical-chinese.blogspot.ca/2008/05/zhuangzi-kingly-rewards.html
I will not quote the entire passage as it is inappropriate for this forum. It begins like this: 莊子曰：「秦王有病召醫，破癰潰痤者得車一乘

Thanks for pointing that out.
Again, sorry.

-------------------------------------------------------

SuperXW,
never mind. tarlou has a good point.


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