# もう5年ほどの付き合いで



## theseus_

Context:
今日仕事が終わってから、足の血管治療の診察のために病院に行きました。冬に治療したところの経過は順調のようです。足も楽になりました。この先生とはもう5年ほどの付き合いで、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。本当に出会えてよかったです。

I guess "で" in "付き合いで" is "連用形" of "です / だ",  is it correct?

If I change the sentence into :
この先生とはもう5年ほど付き合って、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。
Does it sound unnatural?


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## gengo

theseus_ said:


> 今日仕事が終わってから、足の血管治療の診察のために病院に行きました。冬に治療したところの経過は順調のようです。足も楽になりました。この先生とはもう5年ほどの付き合いで、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。本当に出会えてよかったです。
> 
> I guess "で" in "付き合いで" is "連用形" of "です / だ",  is it correct?


Yes.


theseus_ said:


> If I change the sentence into :
> この先生とはもう5年ほど付き合って、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。
> Does it sound unnatural?


It sounds OK to me.  However, I probably would have said something like "この先生には5年ほど診てもらって、..."


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## Flaminius

> この先生とはもう5年ほど付き合って


Yes, this is unnatural.  I am loathe to over-generalise but I think _te_-forms are generally perfective.  In other words, your modification would assume that you are no longer seeing the doctor.



> この先生には5年ほど診てもらって


This is unnatural with the same reason.  I'd salvage it by using the _teiru_-form: この先生にはもう5年ほど診てもらっていて.


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## gengo

Flaminius said:


> Yes, this is unnatural.  I am loathe to over-generalise but I think _te_-forms are generally perfective.  In other words, your modification would assume that you are no longer seeing the doctor.



Are you sure?  I have the same general idea that you do, but I don't think it's always that case.

Here are some examples I found in which the action seems not to be ended (that is, it is not perfective).

2年ほど付き合って、パートナーのことを理解した上で結婚を考えたい。
筆者が過去取材したケースでは、既に4年ほど付き合って同棲もしているのに、一向に結婚の空気にならないというカップルがいました。



Flaminius said:


> This is unnatural with the same reason.  I'd salvage it by using the _teiru_-form: この先生にはもう5年ほど診てもらっていて.



I agree, that sounds better.


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## Flaminius

The two samples you have shown are, gengo, typical cases of perfective.  For the first sentence, let me remind you that 付き合う is to be in an informal relationship.  Marriage confers official status to a relationship, thus ending its informality.

As for the second, 付き合って defers to the _teiru_ in 同棲もしている.


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## gengo

Flaminius said:


> For the first sentence, let me remind you that 付き合う is to be in an informal relationship.  Marriage confers official status to a relationship, thus ending its informality.



2年ほど付き合って、パートナーのことを理解した上で結婚を考えたい。
I want to date for about two years and get to know my partner before I think about marriage.

I understand what you are saying, but in the above case it seems that there is no definitive end to the dating.

At any rate, in the original (5年ほどの付き合いで), doesn't that で after a noun (nominal verb form) serve basically the same function as the -て form does after a verb?

Ex.
一週間の休みで、元気が戻った。
一週間を休んで、元気が戻った。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I have a different viewpoint.

１．この先生とはもう5年ほどの付き合いで、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。

２．この先生とはもう5年ほど付き合って、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。

１ is the most natural expression in this context.
I don't think 2 is as natural as 1, because it is often used for the negative relationship (=5年ほどの腐れ縁で）or the speaker has been privately going out with the doctor including having sex.

According to the latter half, I could rule out that the woman has a negative impression against the doctor, or she is having sex with the doctor.
But it can mean that the woman likes the doctor because of both the private life with him and his treatment as a doctor.

For this reason, I suggest that 付き合って is not a preferable choice here.

I think 『付き合い』is used for more formal situation, while 『付き合ってる』is used as a colloquial expression, meaning going out with someone.

I agree 付き合って*いて *is better than 付き合って, but it still has the ambiguity if the woman and the doctor are できている (having sex).
『*お*付き合い』insted of 付き合い changes the nuance and it can mean the both.

Anyway, この先生とはもう5年ほどの付き合いで、本当に熱心に治療してくれます。is the best and you should not change it. You should learn that this is "it." This is the correct and natural wording here.
..........
付き合いで = 付き合い（名詞）+で、
腐れ縁（名詞） + で
幸甚+で
しあわせ+で
光栄+で
交際+で
5年来の不倫+で

This pattern is quite common in Japanese, I guess.


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## Flaminius

gengo said:


> 2年ほど付き合って、パートナーのことを理解した上で結婚を考えたい。
> I want to date for about two years and get to know my partner before I think about marriage.


I think I understand what you are having trouble with.  The status of 付き合っている is terminated by 結婚.  If the couple marries according to the plan, and 3 years have passed with them being in marriage, you CANNOT say: 私たちは5年間付き合っています。

Across many of its senses, 付き合う has a non-obliging nuance.  As an honorific device, it hints at the listener being so gracious that they attended the speaker when there is no obligation to do so:
1ヶ月間お付き合いくださり、誠にありがとうございます。
[Said to listeners by a radio talk show host concluding his month-long programme.]

The non-obligatory, non-binding nuance can be felt in uses of the verb for romantic contexts.  A viable description of the couple's history of their relationship is: 私たちは2年付き合って、結婚して3年です。

The verb cannot translates well the English expression "to be together" in this context.



gengo said:


> At any rate, in the original (5年ほどの付き合いで), doesn't that で after a noun (nominal verb form) serve basically the same function as the -て form does after a verb?


Yes and no.  You seem to have equated 先生とは5年ほどの付き合いで with 一週間の休みで、元気が戻った, but they aren't using the same grammatical construction.  The former で is a conjugation of だ (I am not familiar with the term nominal verb form, but it seems right), but the latter で is a postposition of means, instrument, or a "converter" of measure words into means or resources to do something (sorry for a verbose explanation, I am really at a loss).


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## theseus_

Many thanks to everyone!




Flaminius said:


> Yes, this is unnatural. I am loathe to over-generalise but I think _te_-forms are generally perfective. In other words, your modification would assume that you are no longer seeing the doctor.





Flaminius said:


> This is unnatural with the same reason. I'd salvage it by using the _teiru_-form: この先生にはもう5年ほど診てもらっていて.


Thanks for giving the rule, it is helpful to deepen my understanding between _te_-forms and _teiru_-forms.



Flaminius said:


> Yes and no. You seem to have equated 先生とは5年ほどの付き合いで with 一週間の休みで、元気が戻った, but they aren't using the same grammatical construction. The former で is a conjugation of だ (I am not familiar with the term nominal verb form, but it seems right), but the latter で is a postposition of means, instrument, or a "converter" of measure words into means or resources to do something (sorry for a verbose explanation, I am really at a loss).


Could the latter "で" be seen as the abbreviation of "なので"?




SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I don't think 2 is as natural as 1, because it is often used for the negative relationship (=5年ほどの腐れ縁で）or the speaker has been privately going out with the doctor including having sex.
> 
> According to the latter half, I could rule out that the woman has a negative impression against the doctor, or she is having sex with the doctor.
> But it can mean that the woman likes the doctor because of both the private life with him and his treatment as a doctor.
> 
> For this reason, I suggest that 付き合って is not a preferable choice here.
> 
> I think 『付き合い』is used for more formal situation, while 『付き合ってる』is used as a colloquial expression, meaning going out with someone.
> 
> I agree 付き合って*いて *is better than 付き合って, but it still has the ambiguity if the woman and the doctor are できている (having sex).
> 『*お*付き合い』insted of 付き合い changes the nuance and it can mean the both.


Thanks for the suggestion.
So, after adding the お in front of『付き合い』, 『*お*付き合い』can mean both "more formal situation" and "going out on a date", is it correct?


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## SoLaTiDoberman

theseus_ said:


> So, after adding the お in front of『付き合い』, 『*お*付き合い』can mean both "more formal situation" and "going out on a date", is it correct?


Yes. You're right.


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## Flaminius

theseus_ said:


> Could the latter "で" be seen as the abbreviation of "なので"?


Do you mean the former (先生とは5年ほどの付き合いで)?  Then, yes.


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