# 修身 齐家 治国 平天下



## Sylvia_scj

What's the proper English expression for“修身 齐家 治国 平天下”?


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## desertrat

Sylvia_scj said:


> What's the proper English expression for“修身 齐家 治国 平天下”?


  Permit me to try this one:

Cultivate oneself. Bring order to the family. Govern the country. Bring peace to all.


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## xiaolijie

desertrat said:


> Cultivate oneself. Bring order to the family. Govern the country. Bring peace to all.


I think desertrat's translation is good as it is, but it doesn't bring out the motive, the reason for the original saying. So I'd complement it with a slightly different interpretation:
_To govern the country (and bring peace to all), one should first be able to govern one's family; to govern one's family successfully, one should first learn to govern oneself._


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## desertrat

xiaolijie said:


> I think desertrat's translation is good as it is, but it doesn't bring out the motive, the reason for the original saying. So I'd complement it with a slightly different interpretation:
> _To govern the country (and bring peace to all), one should first be able to govern one's family; to govern one's family successfully, one should first learn to govern oneself._



Thank you, Xiaolijie. A very good point. And isn't this entire phrase taken from the Great Learning section of the ancient classic Li Ji (礼记 大学)?


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## xiaolijie

desertrat said:


> And isn't this entire phrase taken from the Great Learning section of the ancient classic Li Ji (礼记 大学)?


I think you're right, desertrat!

Cheers,


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## AVim

> 修身 齐家 治国 平天下


desertrat's translation's excellent.

What was actually said in <礼记.大学> is : "心正而后身修, 身修而后家齐, 家齐而后国治, 国治而后天下平.", which means "Once you are righteous and honest, yourself becomes cultivated, then the family becomes ordered, then the country becomes organized, then all the world becomes peaceful."

I think the '修身 齐家 治国 平天下' is a misleading interpretation of the original text from modern guys. 

To xiaolijie:
In the era when the Confucius lived, there were many countries in the mainland China, so '国' is not equal to '天下' from his viewpoint.


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## samanthalee

Just to clarify things a little...

In Confucius' era, the term '国' refers to fiefdoms.  The '国' of this era is translated as 'States', eg. 战国 The Warring States Period. The rulers of these 'vassal states' are feudal lords (诸侯) who pledged allegiance to the King(王), who rules 天下。

The problem with translating this piece of gem is that there is no equivalent concept of this '天下' in English. In modern times, '天下' means "The World" (in the same way '国' has come to mean 'country'). But in Confucius' era, '天下' refers to the Chinese civilized lands and does not include the 'barbaric lands' of the neighbouring 'barbarians' (Mongolians, Koreans, Japanese. Yes, our Chinese ancestors were bigots).

The closest equivalence to '天下' is 'nation'  (according to Wikipedia: A 'nation' is a human cultural and social community....members of which share a common identity, and usually a common origin, in the sense of history, ancestry, parentage or descent.) But a 'nation', as we know it, is always a 'country' while the '天下' can be split into many countries.

修身 齐家 治国 平天下 is "First free yourself of wrong-doings and evil thoughts, then bring order to your family, after which govern your people well and the land is yours". But really, how many present day politicians know enough to 修身。


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## AVim

samanthalee said:


> Just to clarify things a little...
> 
> In Confucius' era, the term '国' refers to fiefdoms.  The '国' of this era is translated as 'States', eg. 战国 The Warring States Period. The rulers of these 'vassal states' are feudal lords (诸侯) who pledged allegiance to the King(王), who rules 天下。


我记得 得 '天下' 的人被称为 '天子', '天子' 将 '天下' 划成许多诸侯国(如齐国, 楚国), 各个诸侯国的老大叫'王' (如齐王,楚王).



samanthalee said:


> 修身 齐家 治国 平天下 is "First free yourself of wrong-doings and evil thoughts, then bring order to your family, after which govern your people well and the land is yours". But really, how many present day politicians know enough to 修身。



个人到觉得: 所谓的 "*修*身 *齐*家 *治*国 *平*天下" 和 原文中的 "身*修* 家*齐* 国*治* 天下*平*" 还是有区别的.

对于前者, xiaolijie翻译得很到位: "为了(扫)平(统一)天下, 我们得先治理好自己的国家; 为了治理好国家, 我们得先学着把自己的家庭管好; 为了管理好自己的家庭, 我们得先学会管理自己", 其中怀有强烈的目的和动机, 一旦达到这一目的,"*修*身" 便毫无意义。不仅是当今政客如此, 现代人大多怀有这样的心态呵... 可惜他们误会了孔夫子的本意, "身*修*"是一种状态, 而 "*修*身" 只是一个动作.


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## snowyau

My Chinese might be a little rusty, doesn't 身修 (and I would think 修身) mean "to discipline the body"? In otherwords, to be able to "submit" or "deny oneself" if required.


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## snowyau

samanthalee said:


> Just to clarify things a little...
> Yes, our Chinese ancestors were bigots).



Ha. Well said... 天下 literally means "everything under the skies", in other words, "the universe", in other words, to our ancestors, "all that we consider to be the civilised world". 

Just like when the United States declared "All (white) men are created equal".

Still, these notions are very noble and served as a blueprint for future generations.


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## Zulis

snowyau said:


> ...
> 
> Just like when the United States declared "All (white) men are created equal"...



I do not have anything to add or contribute as everything that is wroth saying has already been said 

and HA! good one snowyau!


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## samanthalee

AVim said:


> 我记得 得 '天下' 的人被称为 '天子', '天子' 将 '天下' 划成许多诸侯国(如齐国, 楚国), 各个诸侯国的老大叫'王' (如齐王,楚王).



Hmm? Oh, another bit of confusing history. 
In the beginning of the feudal times, only the '天子' can be called '王'. The rulers of 诸侯国 were lord  of different ranks (公，侯，伯). It used to be 齐国侯，秦国公 etc. Then the lords got powerful and started calling themselves '王', for example, 勾践 (of 卧薪尝胆 fame) was the first 越国君 to call himself 越王。The '天子' by this time is merely a figurehead and couldn't object to his vassals giving themselves titles equal to his own.


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## Sylvia_scj

Thank you so much, all of you. I learned a lot from all your opinions. Thank you again.


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