# Urdu, Hindi: the spirit of the law



## marrish

Dear forum members and spectators,

There is an idiomatic expression in several European languages which addresses the intended message of the law: the spirit of the law. The spirit is contrasted to the 'letter of the law', this being the literal approach.

How would you express these two ideas in the target languages? Does anybody know of a Urdu or Hindi idiom which would be applicable or can we proceed to the word-to-word coinage?


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## greatbear

"kanoon kii aatmaa", I guess, in Hindi.


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## Alfaaz

Guessing:
 حرف / تحریر  القانون Harf / taHreer al-qanuun
روح القانون rouH al-qanuun
rouH al-qanuun , rouH-e-qanuun, qanuun ki rouH


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## BP.

maa fii jauhar/ruuH e qaa3idah/qaanuun?
niyyat ul qaa3idah/qaanuun?


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## marrish

BelligerentPacifist said:


> maa fii jauhar/ruuH e qaa3idah/qaanuun?
> niyyat ul qaa3idah/qaanuun?


I'm glad to have your suggestions - I find the use of 'jauhar' in the first one goes straight to the core of the semantic load. Perhaps you could explain the rest of the construction? 
I'm indebted for bringing the word 'qaa3idah' to the attention. I had intended to start a separate thread for it but it became unnecessary for such a secondary issue, since the title of this existing thread contains the English word which BelligerentPacifist SaaHib put forward as an equally possible alternative, especially when the phrase 'the spirit of the law'  would be contextually placed in reference to a particular rule of law. I think that the discussion would have been uncomplete, had the first noun of the idiom not deserved mentioning.

There seems to exist a degree of ambiguity concerining this word amongs the Urdu speakers, sometimes it is spelt with a hamzah, otherwise with 3ayn. What would be the correct form of this word? On our forum, I've found these instances of it:
post 9  post 10  (Urdu+Roman) post 4  (it seems a matter of transliteration here because the Urdu version has 3ayn). post 7  (my own post!), post 11 and 12. Both seem equally popular!

As per the second suggestion, BP SaaHib, it made me think of 'manshaa2-e qaanuun/qaa3idah'.


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> There seems to exist a degree of ambiguity concerining this word amongs the Urdu speakers, sometimes it is spelt with a hamzah, otherwise with 3ayn.


I think it is supposed to be with an a'iyn, at least judging from my experience and memory of reading Arabic/Urdu qaa'idahs! 

The dictionary lists both:
 قائدہ : a type of snake 
قاعدہ : the one we are you are referring to, hopefully!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I'm glad to have your suggestions - I find the use of 'jauhar' in the first one goes straight to the core of the semantic load. Perhaps you could explain the rest of the construction?
> I'm indebted for bringing the word 'qaa3idah' to the attention. I had intended to start a separate thread for it but it became unnecessary for such a secondary issue, since the title of this existing thread contains the English word which BelligerentPacifist SaaHib put forward as an equally possible alternative, especially when the phrase 'the spirit of the law'  would be contextually placed in reference to a particular rule of law. I think that the discussion would have been uncomplete, had the first noun of the idiom not deserved mentioning.
> 
> There seems to exist a degree of ambiguity concerining this word amongs the Urdu speakers, sometimes it is spelt with a hamzah, otherwise with 3ayn. What would be the correct form of this word? On our forum, I've found these instances of it:
> post 9  post 10  (Urdu+Roman) post 4  (it seems a matter of transliteration here because the Urdu version has 3ayn). post 7  (my own post!), post 11 and 12. Both seem equally popular!
> 
> As per the second suggestion, BP SaaHib, it made me think of 'manshaa2-e qaanuun/qaa3idah'.



Regarding, "In the spirit of x", there is (I have a very strong inclination) quite a straightforward Urdu equivalent but for the life of me, it is not coming to my mind!

qaa3idah (qavaa3id) is the correct version, based on the verb qa3ada (to sit).


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## BP.

marrish said:


> I'm glad to have your suggestions - I find the use of 'jauhar' in the first one goes straight to the core of the semantic load. Perhaps you could explain the rest of the construction?...


I was ambivalent whether to just use jauhar-essense, or go for something along the lines of maa fii uz zamiir, and appear to have without thinking made a compromise.



marrish said:


> ...
> As per the second suggestion, BP SaaHib, it made me think of 'manshaa2-e qaanuun/qaa3idah'.


Which is I think a marked improvement on the original.


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## Cilquiestsuens

''*the spirit and the letter*''.

*Letter* means : 'literal meaning'. I don't think the word حرف  would be the best fit here. To the best of my knowledge it is not used in this sense in Urdu, not commonly at least, plus it has another meaning in expressions (such as Harf aanaa, etc.). I would stick to 'literal meaning' :   لفظی معنی  / لغوی معنی

*Spirit*, I don't think a literal translation, such as  روح can work here... since 'Spirit' is a metaphor. Not being sure about what Urdu would favor in such a case, I would myself stick to a more understandable and down-to-earth translation.

 I  vaguely remember having read something related to that recently... A sentence like...

*اسکی تفہیم کے مطابق اگر فیصلہ کیا جائے تو قانون کا اصل مقصد فوت ہو جائےگا*


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## UrduMedium

How about قانون کا مدّعا and قانون کی اصل?


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## Alfaaz

> *Letter* means : 'literal meaning'. I don't think the word حرف would be the best fit here. To the best of my knowledge it is not used in this sense in Urdu, not commonly at least, plus it has another meaning in expressions (such as Harf aanaa, etc.). I would stick to 'literal meaning' : لفظی معنی / لغوی معنی
> 
> *Spirit*, I don't think a literal translation, such as روح can work here... since 'Spirit' is a metaphor. Not being sure about what Urdu would favor in such a case, I would myself stick to a more understandable and down-to-earth translation.


Agree. I thought I had heard the two in a few Urdu dramas...which is why I mentioned them, but Urdu dramas often use elevated, fancy, metaphoric, philosophical language-so might not be a reliable source.


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## bakshink

"kanoon kii bhaavanaa" in Hindi


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> I think it is supposed to be with an a'iyn, at least judging from my experience and memory of reading Arabic/Urdu qaa'idahs!
> 
> The dictionary lists both:
> قائدہ : a type of snake
> قاعدہ : the one we are you are referring to, hopefully!


Thank you for bringing clarity into my mind, I wasn't aware of the word for a snake!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Regarding, "In the spirit of x", there is (I have a very strong inclination) quite a straightforward Urdu equivalent but for the life of me, it is not coming to my mind!
> 
> qaa3idah (qavaa3id) is the correct version, based on the verb qa3ada (to sit).


Thank you for confirmation; I was beginning to think that there is a totally different word based on another verb!

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2438069&p=12280244#post12280244
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2383332&p=11982073#post11982073
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2379366&p=11957203#post11957203

I am amazed and amused everytime when I see قوائد qavaa'id in print. I have come across it very frequently, even in good publications. These words seem to be mismatched all the time. Do we have another example of aGhlaatu_l3aam?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thank you for confirmation; I was beginning to think that there is a totally different word based on another verb!
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2438069&p=12280244#post12280244
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2383332&p=11982073#post11982073
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2379366&p=11957203#post11957203
> 
> I am amazed and amused everytime when I see قوائد qavaa'id in print. I have come across it very frequently, even in good publications. These words seem to be mismatched all the time. Do we have another example of aGhlaatu_l3aam?



marrish SaaHib, for Roman I have been using an apostrophe for both the hamzah AND the 3ain. More recently, I have been trying to stick to 3 for 3ain. In one of the examples you have quoted in the previous post where Faylasoof SaaHib has actually written qavaa'id in Urdu...that I would say was a mere oversight. In other cases, IMHO, others have used an apostrophe for an 3ain not because they think there is a hamzah there but have just used an apostrophe for the 3ain.

Ghalatu_l3aam?


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> marrish SaaHib, for Roman I have been using an apostrophe for both the hamzah AND the 3ain. More recently, I have been trying to stick to 3 for 3ain. In one of the examples you have quoted in the previous post where Faylasoof SaaHib has actually written qavaa'id in Urdu...that I would say was a mere oversight. In other cases, IMHO, others have used an apostrophe for an 3ain not because they think there is a hamzah there but have just used an apostrophe for the 3ain.
> 
> Ghalatu_l3aam?


 Agreed! Still, I have found the hamzah in many printed publications!


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> How about قانون کا مدّعا and قانون کی اصل?


Only for one reason would qaanuun kaa mudd3aa not be good because mudd3aa as such exists in the legal language and is used in a different way. The suggestion is valuable otherwise!


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## marrish

Cilquiestsuens said:


> ''*the spirit and the letter*''.
> 
> *Letter* means : 'literal meaning'. I don't think the word حرف  would be the best fit here. To the best of my knowledge it is not used in this sense in Urdu, not commonly at least, plus it has another meaning in expressions (such as Harf aanaa, etc.). I would stick to 'literal meaning' :   لفظی معنی  / لغوی معنی
> 
> *Spirit*, I don't think a literal translation, such as  روح can work here... since 'Spirit' is a metaphor. Not being sure about what Urdu would favor in such a case, I would myself stick to a more understandable and down-to-earth translation.
> 
> I  vaguely remember having read something related to that recently... A sentence like...
> 
> *اسکی تفہیم کے مطابق اگر فیصلہ کیا جائے تو قانون کا اصل مقصد فوت ہو جائےگا*


Your analysis is dearly appreciated, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib. I agree with it generally. I differ with you on the point whether ''spirit'' can work as ''_ruuH_'', I have the feeling _ruuH_ is also used as a  metaphor.

I'd say _qaanuun kaa asl maqsad_ would be equal to _manshaa2-e-qaanuun,_ wouldn't it?


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## Cilquiestsuens

I didn't say categorically that روح would be wrong here. I expressed a personal choice.

My thinking is that case, is when there is no set expression in the target language is to try and find an expression as different as possible from the original one in order to avoid literal translations and copycatting.

However, the more I study languages the more I see they generally go for 'literal translations', which corresponds to a mental tendency to favor the original language, deemed better that the target one. I personally believe it is better to use the existing resources of the language and retain as much as possible its originality and genius.

*manshaa2* is very good I think, it belongs to a slightly higher register than _*asal maqsad*_, which is normal language. However, if we choose *manshaa2* or _*maqsad*_ we haven't used a metaphor as in the original.

I am not sure anyone came with an interesting suggestion for _*letter*_, by the way?


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## nineth

bakshink said:


> "kanoon kii bhaavanaa" in Hindi



I find this the most appropriate.


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## JaiHind

The equivalent term for "Spirit of the law" in Hindi is: "कानून की भावना".


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## marrish

JaiHind said:


> The equivalent term for "Spirit of the law" in Hindi is: "कानून की भावना".



Your suggestion which has been put forward twice before seems a very good one!
Would the previous suggestion ''कानून की आत्मा" not acceptable? Is it so that the word आत्मा can't be used in a metaphorical sense?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Would the previous suggestion ''कानून की आत्मा" not acceptable? Is it so that the word आत्मा can't be used in a metaphorical sense?



I don't know why JaiHind has issues with 'कानून की आत्मा", but a simple search on Google has more than 25,000 hits for the precise phrase. "Aatmaa" is used a lot metaphorically: "dharm kii aatmaa", "sabhytaa kii aatmaa", and so on. Just like the English word 'spirit', which is also the correct translation for "aatmaa", not soul (though of course "spirit" does not always translate to "aatmaa" and vice versa; one could refer Guenon on this, with an example here).


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