# 得る for potential



## Pacerier

Hi all, is the 得る conjugation widely used for the potential form (as compared to [V]-eru form and [V]ことができる form) ?

Like トムは泳ぎうります/トムは泳ぎうる ?


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## 涼宮

Interesting question, as you, I would like also to know the difference among 動詞＋ことができる vs potencial form vs stem+ うる

I hope natives answer


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## Wishfull

トムは泳ぎうります *Wrong.*
トムは泳ぎうる* Probably wrong.*

初心者にも泳ぎうる距離を、その競技の規定距離に設定した。*　Probably OK.*

I think it is old-Japanese written expression, which is used for official documents.
It is not used for daily speech.


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## Pacerier

Hey cool thanks for the help =) Btw is it used in books/novels?

Also I was wondering if we speak like that will a native listener know what you are speaking (or will it sound just v weird?)


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## kenjoluma

I agree with Wishfull. I believe this is an old form, and it is used in very restricted (official or literal) situations. However, ありえない, is used quite often in daily conversation. (Is there anything else? I don't know. This is all I can think of right now)


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## Pacerier

Ok cool =)


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## lammn

kenjoluma said:


> However, ありえない, is used quite often in daily conversation. (Is there anything else? I don't know. This is all I can think of right now)


 
I have heard of ありえません as well.


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## akimura

The -うる form is widely found as ありうる (the existence verb ある + うる）. 彼の昇進は*ありうる*(*ありえる*／*ありえます**）*。
(His promotion seems a possibility.)​Another verb that goes well with -うる is なる. 刃物は凶器に*なりうる*(*なりえる*／*なりえます**）。
*(An edged tool can be a weapon.)​The other verbs I can think of seem to lie in the group of passive verbs such as 読まれる and some intransitive verbs of 下一段活用 such as 壊れる. その画面は容易に他人に読まれうる。
(The screen can be easily read by others.)
その画面は容易に他人に読まれえ*る*（or *ます*）。

　ガラスのコップは容易に壊れうる。
　ガラスのコップは容易に壊れえ*る*（or *ます*）。​


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## Pacerier

Heys is it true that as long as the hiragana before える is -え-sounding (i.e. えれけせてねへめ) then we will have to use うる instead of える?


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## akimura

Pacerier said:


> Heys is it true that as long as the hiragana before える is -え-sounding (i.e. えれけせてねへめ) then we will have to use うる instead of える?



I'm not totally sure yet.  I'll get back if I come up with an answer.

Meanwhile, here is another example from 大辞林:
集め*うる*限りの材料をみな集める。
​Here, you can also say, 集め*られる*限りの材料をみな集める, but I wouldn't say 集め*える*限りの材料をみな集める。


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## akimura

Pacerier said:


> トムは泳ぎうる ?



トムは泳ぎ*うる* sounds wrong.

One tendency I see is that when used at the end of a sentence, the -うる form seems to be more happily combined with an action that (good) people wouldn't take, which isn't necessarily the case with any such verb or in any such context.  Also, the "...なら(ば）～うる" structure, which probably falls into the category of the subjunctive mood in English grammar, seems to be preferred in many of such cases.

 トム*なら*(*ば）*秘密をもらし*うる*。（× もらし*える* ）
or トム*なら*(*ば）*秘密をもらし*かねない*。
[ I don't know about others, but] Tom could leak a secret.

  トム*なら*(*ば）*ゴキブリを毎日食べ*うる*。（× 食べ*える* ）
or トム*なら*(*ば）*ゴキブリを毎日食べ*かねない*。
[ Nobody would, but ] Tom could eat cockroaches every day.

 トム*なら*(*ば）*下水の川を喜んで泳ぎ*うる*。（× 泳ぎ*える* ）
or トム*なら*(*ば）*下水の川を喜んで泳ぎ*かねない*。
[ Nobody would, but ] Tom could gladly swim in a sewage river.

However,
× トム*なら*おいしい料理を毎日食べ*うる*。
　トム*なら*おいしい料理を毎日食べ*かねない*。(This is a good one, expressed with a good sense of humor.  Maybe "We all young students manage to live with a penny, but Tom could enjoy luxury meals every day.  It's a crime!  We hate you Tom!" )


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## Pacerier

Heys cool, to confirm, does it mean that if I want to say "this is edible", all of these sentences are acceptable?: 

1) これ食べられる
2) これ食べえる
3) これ食べれる
4) これ食べることができる

but we can't say これ食べうる?


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## akimura

Pacerier said:


> 1) これ食べられる
> 2) これ食べえる
> 3) これ食べれる
> 4) これ食べることができる



1) and 4) are correct.  1) is more generic.  Sentence 4) may be more limited depending on context.  I think sentence 4) is in general more suited to the context where the person can eat this particular food while he or she dislikes some other food, or where the person can eat up a large amount of food.

The 食べれる form in 3) is in grammar class labeled wrong, so we would usually try avoiding it in formal context, but 食べれる has become very common in informal spoken Japanese.

2) sounds wrong, maybe it's partly because the end of "食べ" is "え" sounding, which makes it hard, if not impossible, for "える" to be happily connected with the preceding "食べ". There may be other factors, which I will think about and get back with if I come up with any.



Pacerier said:


> but we can't say これ食べうる?



That's correct.   Actually, it sounds nicely humorous and it does work sometimes.  But in standard use, you can't say it.


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## Flaminius

Both これ食べえる and これ食べうる are incorrect because you cannot create a construction on par with the English _-able_/_ible_ with _-eru_/_-uru_.  For want of a better word let's call the idea expressed by _-able_/_ible_ "impersonal potential" because, if something is edible, anyone can eat it.  The Japanese _-eru_/_-uru _requires a specific subject in mind.  If someone can eat something, or may be compelled to eat it, knock yourself out with Xを食べえた and so on.

Reference:
大辞泉 s.v. える


> *5* （動詞の連用形に付いて）
> 
> (1)…できる。「微笑を禁じ*え*ない」
> 
> (2)そのようになる可能性がある。「交渉決裂もあり*える*」「起こり*え*ない事故」


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## akimura

Flaminius said:


> The Japanese _-eru_/_-uru _requires a specific subject in mind.



I think Flaminius-san made a very good point.  Even if the owner of the action is "anyone", "anyone" is specifically kept in mind.  For example:このようなミスは誰でも犯しうる（or 犯しえます)。
Anyone could make this kind of mistake.
(Here, I'm not sure whether 犯しえる is acceptable, but probably it is because 犯しえます works fine.  But I prefer 犯しうる to 犯しえる.) 

あのようなミスは誰でも犯しえた（or 犯しえました)。
Anyone could have made that kind of mistake.
​


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## akimura

This is to follow up on post #11.  Another tendency I realize is that the -うる form can be used with a verb or in context where not everyone can achieve the goal.阪神タイガースはペナントを取り*うる*。
The Hanshin Tigers could capture the pennant.

我が社の物置は屋根に100人が乗っても耐え*うる*ほど丈夫だ。
Our sheds are solid enough to stand if 100 people get on their roof (each).
​What these examples seem to have in common with the ones I showed in post #11 is that they are used for somewhat extreme goals or potential results.  The same goes with the following example:



Wishfull said:


> 初心者にも泳ぎうる距離を、その競技の規定距離に設定した。*　Probably OK.*



Anyway, what is certain is that the -うる form cannot always be combined happily with any kind of verb, I'm afraid...


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## Pacerier

Oic anyway thanks all for the help, I've learnt alot through this discussion =D


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