# Form of Arabic ميلاد mīlād "(time of) birth" -- closed for moderation



## inquisitiveness1

The Arabic word ميلاد _mīlād_ meaning "birth" looks to me like it has a tool/utility-noun pattern applied to the w-l-d "to give birth" root (_miwlād _-> _mīlād_), in contrast to the also-existent-word مولد _mawlid_ "birthplace/birthday, which more "logically" has the noun-of-time/place pattern applied to it. Can someone explain why the tool-noun pattern was used, or is there a different etymological explanation that explains the form?


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## CyrusSH

In another thread there was a discussion about _Yalda_: Yaldā Night - Wikipedia some people say it is a Syriac word with the meaning of "birth", referring to  the birthday of Mithra, ancient Iranian sun god who was born at the winter solstice.

In Persian there is also Milad: Milad - Wikipedia which is said to be another form of Mithradates, some say it was the actual name of this festival which meant "birthday of Mithra", but in the 4th Century AD, when the Roman Empire started to become Christians, they kept the birthday of Mithra as the birthday of Christ.

Happy Yalda & Christmas!


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## desi4life

December 25th was winter solstice on the Roman calendar. That's why it was chosen as the birthday of Christ. Christmas has nothing to do with Mithra.

Arabic _mīlād_ seems to be unrelated to Persian _mīlād._


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## berndf

desi4life said:


> December 25th was winter solstice on the Roman calendar. That's why it was chosen as the birthday of Christ. Christmas has nothing to do with Mithra.


Maybe very indirectly: Because 25th was winter solstice it was chosen as the nativity feast of the god Sol Invictus which in turn inspired the choice on the 25th of December as the nativity feast in Christianity. On the other side, the Sol Invictus cult probably borrowed heavily from the Mithras cult. But we can't know for sure because the Mitras cult was very secretive and only little detail of its rites is known.


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## I.K.S.

In certain rare situations in Arabic, the pattern مِفعال which denotes اسم الآلة acts as a form of إسم الزمان و المكان, some grammarians claim that; ميلاد  is the indicator of birthday whilst مولد indicates the birthplace or both, it seems to be a controversial issue, especially if we were to include other words with a similar problematic, see  ميعاد and ميقات


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## CyrusSH

desi4life said:


> December 25th was winter solstice on the Roman calendar. That's why it was chosen as the birthday of Christ. Christmas has nothing to do with Mithra.



The relation between Mithraism, the official religion of the Roman Empire from the 1st to the 4th century, and Christianity which was made the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380 by Emperor Theodosius I, has been researched by many scholars and there is almost no doubt about it.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> The relation between Mithraism, the official religion of the Roman Empire from the 1st to the 4th century, and Christianity which was made the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380 by Emperor Theodosius I, has been researched by many scholars and there is almost no doubt about it.


As I said before, the Sol Invictus cult may have been inspired my Mitras cult but they are by no means the same thing. The Mitras cult was never "official" in the Roman Empire.

The Sol Invicus cult was introduced as state religion by Aurelian in the late 3rd century, not in the 1st century.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> As I said before, the Sol Invictus cult may have been inspired my Mitras cult but they are by no means the same thing. The Mitras cult was never "official" in the Roman Empire.
> 
> The Sol Invicus cult was introduced as state religion by Aurelian in the mid 3rd century, not in the 1st century.



Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun) was just the Roman title of the sun-god Mithra, in fact it was called _Deo Soli Invicto Mithrae_. File:Stela funerara MItra MNIR.JPG - Wikipedia


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun) was just the Roman title of the sun-god Mithra, in fact it was called _Deo Soli Invicto Mithrae_. File:Stela funerara MItra MNIR.JPG - Wikipedia


That is wrong.

Mitra was neither a sun god nor was he identified with Sol Invictus. Both are claims by people who want to tweak history.

Of course, all these cults heavily borrowed from each other in a culture that was longing for spirituality. A bit like the esoteric movements in the late 20th century in the West. But that is a different matter.


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## CyrusSH

What is wrong?

For example look at this ancient Roman inscription from the 2nd century: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...iption_Referring_To_Mithra_-_Walters_2317.jpg

What does its title "Soli Invicto Mithrae" mean?


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## berndf

Your first stele reads: To the invincible Mythras, companion/son/boy of God.

The second I haven't looked at yet.


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> Arabic _mīlād_ seems to be unrelated to Persian _mīlād._


There's no 'Persian' _mīlād, _this word is exclusively used in these terms:
سال میلادی/sâle milâdi  - Christian year (based on Christ's birth)
تاریخ میلادی/târixe milâdi - Christian date/era (based on Christ's birth)
میلاد مسیح/milâde masih - Christ's/Messiah's birth


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## berndf

berndf said:


> The second I haven't looked at yet.


Mitras has several times been identified with various Greek and Roman sun dieties. The epitaph _Invictus_ was frequently used with various dieties and is by no means specific. The 3rd century cult of Sol Invictus was a very specific ones and the nature and degree of its influence by the Mitras cult is uncertain. It is not even sure if such an influence existed at all, although it is probable.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> There's no 'Persian' _mīlād, _this word is exclusively used in these terms:
> سال میلادی/sâle milâdi  - Christian year (based on Christ's birth)
> تاریخ میلادی/târixe milâdi - Christian date/era (based on Christ's birth)
> میلاد مسیح/milâde masih - Christ's/Messiah's birth



Because you don't know.

به میلاد بسپرد ایران زمین
کلید در گنج و تاج و نگین
Shahnameh


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Mitras has several times been identified with various Greek and Roman sin dieties. The epitaph _Invictus_ was frequently used with various dieties and is by no means specific. The 3rd century cult of Sol Invictus was a very specific ones and the nature and degree of its influence by the Mitras cult is uncertain. It is not even sure if such an influence existed at all, although it is probable.



I don't know what you mean, it seems to be clear that _Soli Invicto Mithrae_ was the name of ancient Roman sun god.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I don't know what you mean


I meant exactly what I wrote.


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> Because you don't know.
> 
> به میلاد بسپرد ایران زمین
> کلید در گنج و تاج و نگین
> Shahnameh


Ok, but in modern Persian the use is limited to those I mentioned.
As for classic Persian, there are many:
از لعلتان کوثر نمی، وز لفظتان گردون خمی
میلاد شادیها همی از روز دیدار شما
اوحدی

And many more by Ferdôsi, Molavi, also by many other classic, and later, writers.

Anyway my point was that there is no Persian _mīlād,_ and that, it must be the same as the Arabic one i.e. the same as the one in the title of this thread.


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## PersoLatin

berndf said:


> Mitras has several times been identified with various Greek and Roman sun dieties.


Can you supply some references please.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> Ok, but in modern Persian the use is limited to those I mentioned.
> As for classic Persian, there are many:
> از لعلتان کوثر نمی، وز لفظتان گردون خمی
> میلاد شادیها همی از روز دیدار شما
> اوحدی
> 
> And many more by Ferdôsi, Molavi, also by many other classic, and later, writers.
> 
> Anyway my point was that there is no Persian _mīlād,_ and that, it must be the same as the Arabic one i.e. the same as the one in the title of this thread.



Look at my first post in this thread, I mean this _milad_: معنی میلاد | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> Look at my first post in this thread, I mean this _milad_: معنی میلاد | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


I see, thanks, I misinterpreted the reference in post #3.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> Can you supply some references please.


Cyrus' reference is a valid one.

But there is ample iconographic evidence that Sol and Mitras were not the same character. There were consistent traditions to depict both and the Aurelian Sol Invictus cult continues the classical depiction with a sun ray halo. Mitras is depicted with a Parthian cap. Sol and Mitras also occur as separate characters in some reliefs like in the banqueting scene on display in the Louvre.

Since the Mitras cult was so secretive, there is little more than iconography at our disposal to learn anything about it.


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## CyrusSH

I think the Arabic word _milad_ can be compared to _mihrab_ which means "battlefield" in Arabic but it is actually the same as Persian _mihr-aba_ (Mithra's cave, Mithraeum): مهرابه - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> I think the Arabic word _milad_ can be compared to _mihrab_ which means "battlefield" in Arabic but it is actually the same as Persian _mihr-aba_ (Mithra's cave, Mithraeum): مهرابه - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد


I can't see what a cave has to do with a battlefield, no general would lead an army into a cave. 

Also doesn't the Arabic محرب/mahrab derived from Arabic حرب/war?


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## PersoLatin

berndf said:


> Since the Mitras cult was so secretive, there is little more than iconography at our disposal to learn anything about it.


In most phonographic images Mitras/Mythras/Mithras is slaughtering a bull, this is inconsistent with what I know about Zoroastrianism with which Mithra is associated, after all cows/bull were seen as sacred, of course they were killed and eaten but not killed symbolically like the Roman version of Mithras seems to be doing.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> Can you supply some references please.


Hi berndf , the reason I asked for references was because I saw "...Greek and Roman *sin* dieties", in the original post (obviously a typo), rather than "....*sun* dieties" for which there are many references.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> Hi berndf , the reason I asked for references was because I saw "...Greek and Roman *sin* dieties", in the original post (obviously a typo), rather than "....*sun* dieties" for which there are many references.


Yes it was a typo and you must have read my post before I corrected it.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> Also doesn't the Arabic محرب/mahrab derived from Arabic حرب/war?


I think he meant محراب  but he used an imprecise transcription, it should be _mi*ḥ*r*ā*b _(there is no _h_ in محراب). Of course, it is derived from the root _ḥ-r-b._


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> I can't see what a cave has to do with a battlefield, no general would lead an army into a cave.
> 
> Also doesn't the Arabic محرب/mahrab derived from Arabic حرب/war?



It is not _mahrab_ (in maf'al pattern) but also _mihrab_ (in mif'al pattern), it should mean something like "weapon" but it is a place name, so it has been translated as "battlefield", the fact is that it is a loanword from Persian _Mihraba_ "Mithraeum".


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> It is not _mahrab_ (in maf'al pattern) but also _mihrab_ (in mif'al pattern), it should mean something like "weapon" but it is a place name, so it has been translated as "battlefield", the fact is that it is a loanword from Persian _Mihraba_ "Mithraeum".


But does it make sense? Why would you borrow a word that means a cave/hole etc., for battlefield? Arabs have perfectly flat surfaces for battle, so no need to borrow, a cave/hole is only ideal as a 'killing field' when you push the enemy's army into it, maybe that's what it is.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> But does it make sense? Why would you borrow a word that means a cave/hole etc., for battlefield? Arabs have perfectly flat surfaces for battle, so no need to borrow, a cave/hole is only ideal as a 'killing field' when you push the enemy's army into it, maybe that's what it is.


It is the opposite. Battlefield is the theoretical meaning in Arabic. But that of course requires a purely Arabic etymology. So, however you look it. It has nothing to do with Mitra (or however you want to spell it).


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> But does it make sense? Why would you borrow a word that means a cave/hole etc., for battlefield? Arabs have perfectly flat surfaces for battle, so no need to borrow, a cave/hole is only ideal as a 'killing field' when you push the enemy's army into it, maybe that's what it is.



I'm talking about Mihrab of a mosque, of course the original one, like the one exists under the Dome of the Rock. Well of Souls - Wikipedia


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## PersoLatin

berndf said:


> Battlefield is the theoretical meaning in Arabic


I don't understand what you mean by theoretical here.

محراب meaning niche/sanctuary, does make sense and may be a borrowing.


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## CyrusSH

I think berndf meant metaphorical, Mihrab is said to be a battlefield in the battle between man and Satan.


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> I think berndf meant metaphorical, Mihrab is said to be a battlefield in the battle between man and Satan.


Makes sense, thanks.


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## desi4life

berndf said:


> Mitra was neither a sun god nor was he identified with Sol Invictus.





berndf said:


> Mitras has several times been identified with various Greek and Roman sun dieties.



Can you clarify what you mean by these two statements?


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## berndf

desi4life said:


> Can you clarify what you mean by these two statements?


The first statement was about the cult introduced by Aurelian. The second about earlier contexts.


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## Ihsiin

May I point out that all this discussion about Mithras has nothing to do with the topic, which is the form of the Arab word ميلاد 'birthday'?


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> I think the Arabic word _milad_ can be compared to _mihrab_ which means "battlefield" in Arabic but it is actually the same as Persian _mihr-aba_ (Mithra's cave, Mithraeum): مهرابه - ویکی‌پدیا، دانشنامهٔ آزاد


I'm not aware of such thing as _Mihr-āba_ or _Mihr-āva _in Persian with the said meaning_. _Please provide a source for its historic existence. Otherwise, it makes more sense to consider them made-up words to justify a Persian etymology for Arabic _miḥrāb _(possibly to ultimately consider Iranian origins for Islam to serve nationalistic purposes)_.
_
As for Arabic _miḥrāb,_ it may predate Islam, and not be directly related to "fight". Sabaic root _ḥrb _(as well as _mḥrb, _a place in temple) referred to some kind of ritual as well. 



Ihsiin said:


> May I point out that all this discussion about Mithras has nothing to do with the topic, which is the form of the Arab word ميلاد 'birthday'?


Cyrus thinks that the Arabic میلاد is a loan from Persian, not vice versa, because winter solstice (i.e. sun's birthday) was celebrated among Iranians, and so a word related to Mithra was used for "birthday".


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## Ihsiin

Treaty said:


> Cyrus thinks that the Arabic میلاد is a loan from Persian, not vice versa, because winter solstice (i.e. sun's birthday) was celebrated among Iranians, and so a word related to Mithra was used for "birthday".



Indeed, but this is manifestly false since ميلاد clearly comes from the root w-l-d on the pattern of مفعال, a root that relates primarily to the notion of birth and that has cognates in other Semitic languages. No more need be said with regards to that line of inquiry.

More broadly I grow incredibly tired of zealous nationalists trying to demonstrate that their language of choice is the source of any word that happens to come up. We should have a special subforum for them to discuss their crack-pot theories away from the rest of us (with a disclaimer for visitors that such theories should on account be taken seriously). I’m a great fan of the history of languages and I enjoy reading many of the threads in this forum, even if I post very seldom, but my heart sinks every time I see someone hijacking a thread with all the diabolical zeal of a conspiracy theorist.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> I'm not aware of such thing as _Mihr-āba_ or _Mihr-āva _in Persian with the said meaning_. _Please provide a source for its historic existence. Otherwise, it makes more sense to consider them made-up words to justify a Persian etymology for Arabic _miḥrāb _(possibly to ultimately consider Iranian origins for Islam to serve nationalistic purposes)_.
> _



Both names of _Milad_ and _Mihrab_ exist in Shahnameh and it seems to be clear that they relate to _Mithra_ (Mihr) but it is not clear what they exactly meant. I think it sounds logical that we compare them with other words with the same suffixes, for example about _Mihrab/Mihraba_, compare it to _gurab/guraba_ (گوراب/گورابه).


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## CyrusSH

Ihsiin said:


> Indeed, but this is manifestly false since ميلاد clearly comes from the root w-l-d on the pattern of مفعال, a root that relates primarily to the notion of birth and that has cognates in other Semitic languages. No more need be said with regards to that line of inquiry.



There is no doubt that _milad_ can be from the root w-l-d but it can't mean "birthday", as PersoLatin also mentioned this word is mostly used for Christ's birth in Persian but we use other Arabic words for "birthday", like _tavallod_ and _viladat_.


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## Ihsiin

This thread is about the Arabic word ميلاد, not the Persian one. In Arabic the word ميلاد is commonly used to mean 'birth' or 'birthday'. Persian usage is irrelevant, please remain on topic.


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## Treaty

There is no doubt that there is مهراب in Persian, clearly related to _mihr_ (not Mithra, necessarily), but it doesn't mean "niche", "altar" or anything like that. Persian/Iranian has dozens of suffixes with which you can make the meaning _mithraeum_ out of _mihr_. The only reason for selecting this rare and obscure _āb- _suffix seems to be to justify an Iranian origin for Arabic _miḥrāb. _The reason some think _miḥrāb _comes from _mihr _is not because of _mihr-āba, _but vice versa: they already believed _miḥrāb _came from _mihr _and so they made up _mihr-āba. _As I said earlier, to counter my argument, you need to show actual evidence of the existence of the word _mihr-āba_ in history, with the meaning of niche or similar.


CyrusSH said:


> There is no doubt that _milad_ can be from the root w-l-d but it can't mean "birthday"


Why can't it? Post #5 already showed there are examples in Arabic which don't follow the tool meaning (add _mijdāl, miswāṭ, miḍmār, miṭrāq, miḍyāf, mīrāṯ, miʕmār, miʕrāj_ (as "trip") and _miqdār_, and so on).


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## berndf

Ihsiin said:


> This thread is about the Arabic word ميلاد, not the Persian one. In Arabic the word ميلاد is commonly used to mean 'birth' or 'birthday'. *Persian usage is irrelevant, please remain on topic*.


With my moderator hat on I have agree to this conclusion.


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## CyrusSH

Ihsiin said:


> This thread is about the Arabic word ميلاد, not the Persian one. In Arabic the word ميلاد is commonly used to mean 'birth' or 'birthday'. Persian usage is irrelevant, please remain on topic.



This thread is about the form of Arabic ميلاد, if you believe this word with this meaning has Arabic origin then there be should similar words in other Semitic languages, compare to Arabic _wilādat_ and Hebrew _hulédet_ "birth, birthday".


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## Ihsiin

It is a common Arabic form and a common Semitic root.


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## CyrusSH

What is the Arabic word for Christmas? And what does التقويم الميلادي mean? birth's calendar?!


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> This thread is about the form of Arabic ميلاد, if you believe this word with this meaning has Arabic origin then there be should similar words in other Semitic languages, compare to Arabic _wilādat_ and Hebrew _hulédet_ "birth, birthday".


Very common pattern in other Semitic languages as well. Compare Hebrew _mišqál_ (_weight_) from _š-q-l to weigh_.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Very common pattern in other Semitic languages as well. Compare Hebrew _mišqál_ (_weight_) from _š-q-l to weigh_.



The point is that not only in Persian but also in Arabic, _milad_ originally meant "Christ's birthday" and related to the winter solstice.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> The point is that not only in Persian but also in Arabic, _milad_ originally meant "Christ's birthday" and related to the winter solstice.


I haven't read anything in this thread that would allow such a conclusion.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> I haven't read anything in this thread that would allow such a conclusion.



It is not difficult to find the Arabic word Christmas: Christmas - قاموس WordReference.com إنجليزي - عربي


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> It is not difficult to find the Arabic word Christmas: Christmas - قاموس WordReference.com إنجليزي - عربي


This has nothing to do with topic of this thread. Using a word meaning _birth_ for _Christmas_ is completely normal and is certainly not a reason to doubt the obvious etymology of the word in question, which is
ميلاد < W-L-D. The pattern miCCāC to derive not only tools but also abstract and action nouns in Semitic languages is well known (take the above example משקר, which can mean both, _scale_ (tool) and _weight_ (abstract)).


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## Treaty

By the way, عید المیلاد or عید میلاد simply means "birthday" (as opposed to "time of birth" میلاد/مولد). My birthday would be عید میلادي and I would be wished a happy birthday with عید میلاد سعید.


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## CyrusSH

The meaning of _milad_ was probably expanded in Arabic, for example when we say قبل الميلاد it means "before Christ", in fact there is no doubt that we are talking about Christ's birth, for birthday of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, the phrase of "Mawlid al-Nabi" is used in Arabic. _Mawlid_ is actually the correct Arabic word for "birthday".


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## Ihsiin

Treaty said:


> By the way, عید المیلاد or عید میلاد simply means "birthday" (as opposed to "time of birth" میلاد/مولد). My birthday would be عید میلادي and I would be wished a happy birthday with عید میلاد سعید.



This is correct.



CyrusSH said:


> The meaning of _milad_ was probably expanded in Arabic, for example when we say قبل الميلاد it means "before Christ", in fact there is no doubt that we are talking about Christ's birth, for birthday of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, the phrase of "Mawlid al-Nabi" is used in Arabic. _Mawlid_ is actually the correct Arabic word for "birthday".



This is incorrect. In fact, ميلاد النبي is a very common phrase to refer to the birth of Prophet Muhammed. Much more common than مولد النبي, which, while being correct and perfectly understandable, is not a phrase I come across so often.


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## CyrusSH

As I searched, the word _milad_ doesn't exist in Quran but I found it in a few hadiths, like this one:

عنه صلى الله عليه و آله :يُبعَثُ أَهلُ الجَنَّةِ عَلى صُورَةِ آدَمَ فِي مِيلادِ ثَلاثٍ وَثَلاثِينَ سَنَةً مُردا، مُكَحَّلِينَ ، ثُمَّ يُذهَبُ بِهِم إِلى شَجَرَةٍ فِي الجَنَّةِ فَيُكسَونَ مِنها ، لا تَبلَى ثِيابُهُم ، وَلا يَفنى شَبابُهُم

I don't think that ميلاد means "birth, birthday" in this hadith but probably "age".

Of course it can mean "Christ's birthday": تفسير القرآن العظيم (تفسير ابن كثير) - ج 13


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## I.K.S.

CyrusSH said:


> As I searched, the word _milad_ doesn't exist in Quran but I found it in a few hadiths, like this one:
> 
> عنه صلى الله عليه و آله :يُبعَثُ أَهلُ الجَنَّةِ عَلى صُورَةِ آدَمَ فِي مِيلادِ ثَلاثٍ وَثَلاثِينَ سَنَةً مُردا، مُكَحَّلِينَ ، ثُمَّ يُذهَبُ بِهِم إِلى شَجَرَةٍ فِي الجَنَّةِ فَيُكسَونَ مِنها ، لا تَبلَى ثِيابُهُم ، وَلا يَفنى شَبابُهُم
> 
> I don't think that ميلاد means "birth, birthday" in this hadith but probably "age".
> 
> Of course it can mean "Christ's birthday": تفسير القرآن العظيم (تفسير ابن كثير) - ج 13


I agree that ميلاد has been vernacularized into a collocation with المسيح especially in MSA, However you still can find ميلاد  used in the Arabic literature and poetry, and it absence in the Quran or Hadith doesn't weaken its usage as an established term,examples from poetry :
 هـو الدهـر *مـيلاد *فشغل فماتـم فذكر كما اتقى الصدى ذاهب الصوت by  أحمد شوقي
ما بِاِختِياري *ميلادي *وَلا هَرَمي وَلا حَياتي فَهَل لي بَعدُ تَخييرُ by  أبو العلاء المعري
In dictionaries :
ومِيلادُ الرجل: اسم الوقت الذي وُلِدَ فيه.  by Ibn Manzur
أَما المَوْلد والــمِيلاد فقد ذَكرَهما غيرُ واحدٍ من أَئمّةِ اللُّغَة .....ومِيلادُ الرَّجُل: اسمُ الوَقْتِ الَّذِي وُلِدَ فِيهِ، وَمثله فِي الصِّحَاح.  by Murtada al-Zabidi .


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## CyrusSH

Ahmed Shawqi was a 20th-century Egyptian poet, I don't deny that _milad_ also means "birth, birthday" in modern Arabic but I think it was not its original meaning, especially in the early Islamic period that we see as a *loanword* in Persian, it just meant "Christ's birthday" (not Mithra's birthday).


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## Ihsiin

That is an absurd statement with no evidence behind it. This precisely the kind of nationalist zealotry with which I have grown tired and I refuse to engage with it anymore. I will only end by noting that Lane identifies the word ميلاد as meaning "the time of birth" and provides a number of classical references: Lanes Lexicon


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## CyrusSH

Ihsiin said:


> That is an absurd statement with no evidence behind it. This precisely the kind of nationalist zealotry with which I have grown tired and I refuse to engage with it anymore. I will only end by noting that Lane identifies the word ميلاد as meaning "the time of birth" and provides a number of classical references: Lanes Lexicon



Arabic and Persian have borrowed numerous loanwords from each other and I don't know how it can be related to nationalist zealotry! I don't see any classical reference in your source, of course _milad_ meant "birth of a man" but this man was originally just Jesus.

It should be mentioned that the original Persian word was _Mi*h*lad_, there was _rd>l_ sound change in Middle Persian, so _Mihrdad_ should be changed to _Mihlad_. The name of _Mihlad_ (as a Persian name) can be seen in the earliest Jewish-Babylonian-Aramaic mention of Jesus: The Secret Initiation of Jesus at Qumran 

And as you read here: The Archaeology and Material Culture of the Babylonian Talmud about _Mihlad_, son of _Mirdukh_, that the name of _Mirdukh_ didn't relate to _Marduk_, the Babylonian deity, but Persian _Mihrdukh(t)_ "the daughter of Mihr [=Mithra]", literally Daughter of the Sun.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Arabic and Persian have borrowed numerous loanwords from each other and I don't know how it can be related to nationalist zealotry! I don't see any classical reference in your source, of course _milad_ meant "birth of a man" but this man was originally just Jesus.
> 
> It should be mentioned that the original Persian word was _Mi*h*lad_, there was _rd>l_ sound change in Middle Persian, so _Mihrdad_ should be changed to _Mihlad_. The name of _Mihlad_ (as a Persian name) can be seen in the earliest Jewish Babylonian Aramaic mention of Jesus: The Secret Initiation of Jesus at Qumran


This issue is still not about Persian. The etymology within Arabic is totally obvious and regular. If Persian has borrowed the word in a narrowed sense (not birth in general but birth of Christ) this is certainly important for the Persian word but has absolutely zero significance for the Arabic word.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> This issue is still not about Persian. The etymology within Arabic is totally obvious and regular. If Persian has borrowed the word in a narrowed sense (not birth in general but birth of Christ) this is certainly important for the Persian word but has absolutely zero significance for the Arabic word.



If it was obvious and regular then there would be no reason that it was asked here, most of Arabic words seem to have Arabic origin, like _tasbin_ (تصبين) "rubbing with soap".


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> I don't see any classical reference in your source, of course _milad_ meant "birth of a man" but this man was originally just Jesus.





> The _time of birth_ (*T, Ṣ, M, A, L, Mṣb, Ḳ*) of a man;


T: Tahḏīb (10c); Ṣ: Ṣihāh al-luɣa (10c); M: Muḥkam wa al-muḥīṭ ... (10c); A: Asās al-bilāɣa (11c); L: Lisān al-ʿarab (14c); Mṣb: Miṣbāḥ ... (10c); Ḳ: Qāmūs al-luɣa (14c). By the way, these are just philological sources. We can add others (e.g., Meybudī's 12c exegesis which clearly says _mīlād _is a time-noun from _w-l-d,_ comparable to _mīqāt_).


CyrusSH said:


> It should be mentioned that the original Persian word was _Mi*h*lad_, there was _rd>l_ sound change in Middle Persian, so _Mihrdad_ should be changed to _Mihlad_. The name of _Mihlad_ (as a Persian name) can be seen in the earliest Jewish-Babylonian-Aramaic mention of Jesus: The Secret Initiation of Jesus at Qumran
> And as you read here: The Archaeology and Material Culture of the Babylonian Talmud about _Mihlad_, son of _Mirdukh_, that the name of _Mirdukh_ didn't relate to _Marduk_, the Babylonian deity, but Persian _Mihrdukh(t)_ "the daughter of Mihr [=Mithra]", literally Daughter of the Sun


This is just a rambling of words. None of them has anything to do with Jesus. They are not even Christian.

<off-topic remark removed>


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## inquisitiveness1

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> In certain rare situations in Arabic, the pattern مِفعال which denotes اسم الآلة acts as a form of إسم الزمان و المكان, some grammarians claim that; ميلاد  is the indicator of birthday whilst مولد indicates the birthplace or both, it seems to be a controversial issue, especially if we were to include other words with a similar problematic, see  ميعاد and ميقات





Treaty said:


> Why can't it? Post #5 already showed there are examples in Arabic which don't follow the tool meaning (add _mijdāl, miswāṭ, miḍmār, miṭrāq, miḍyāf, mīrāṯ, miʕmār, miʕrāj_ (as "trip") and _miqdār_, and so on).





berndf said:


> The pattern miCCāC to derive not only tools but also abstract and action nouns in Semitic languages is well known (take the above example משקר, which can mean both, _scale_ (tool) and _weight_ (abstract)).


Thanks for these. In Arabic specifically, I was not aware that there were more examples of the miCCāC pattern being used for nouns other than noun tools, to the extant that it could be considered a normal, but rare Arabic noun pattern for non-tool nouns.


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## LebaneseLinguist

CyrusSH said:


> If it was obvious and regular then there would be no reason that it was asked here, most of Arabic words seem to have Arabic origin, like _tasbin_ (تصبين) "rubbing with soap".



The level of ridiculousness in your post is beyond comprehension. The word MILAD is clearly a Semitic word that finds its origins in Aramaic. The Aramaic word Mawlada means birth or place of birth. Since Arabic (another Semitic language) is heavily influenced by Aramaic the word was historically included in Arabic naturally.

Now to be clear so that you can understand, in Semitic languages there are roots for every word, and this results in a number of ways the word is used and adapted. And from the Aramaic mawlada (which predates any of your silly and ethno centric sources) we get:

Waled: father (in Arabic. It means “he who gave birth”).
Walde: mother (in Arabic. It means “she who gave birth”). Side note: there are other Semitic terms used for mother and father in Arabic such baba, ba, abi, bayye, yaba, mama, imme, yumma, yamo, yama, ameh  (that derive from older Semitic languages and notice how they all have the same root, and sound similar and are only dialectically different).

Milad= birthday
Wilad= children 
Mawlid: “the birth”, or “birth of”, or “born on”.
Mawlood: “born on”
Wilid: “was born on”
Walad: child 


And you mention the Quran, you’re funny. One of the main verses in the Quran is Surat el Akhlas, which mentions the different forms of Milad. “La myaled, wala myolad”. (Translates: He was not given birth to, nor does he give birth)

The concept of using the term قبل ميلاد miladi calendar (after Christ and before Christ calendar): that was invented by Christian Aramaens (today known as Christian Arabs). You did not invent that. To make matters even funnier the word قبل (which means before) is a Semitic word. So you’re trying so hard to prove that this word is Farsi by using other words that are clearly not your own.

And of course the word milad is used for the birth of Christ since it literally means birth in both Aramaic/Syriac and Arabic (all Semitic languages).

The word is clearly Semitic as it has many uses in Arabic while it is limited to mean simply “birthday” and “Christmas” in Farsi. In the Semitic languages additional titles for father and mother derive from the single word for birth aka Milad. You are literally limited to 2 things, two meanings, which means that this word does not originate from your people.


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## LebaneseLinguist

PersoLatin said:


> Hi berndf , the reason I asked for references was because I saw "...Greek and Roman *sin* dieties", in the original post (obviously a typo), rather than "....*sun* dieties" for which there are many references.





CyrusSH said:


> There is no doubt that _milad_ can be from the root w-l-d but it can't mean "birthday", as PersoLatin also mentioned this word is mostly used for Christ's birth in Persian but we use other Arabic words for "birthday", like _tavallod_ and _viladat_.



Wld= was born, or born.
Walad: child
Walid: “he who gave birth to” (father)
Waldeh: (she who gave birth to” (mother)

Now pay attention
Tawallod (your v is a corruption of the Semitic W و): to give birth, births
Wiladat: your birth
Meelad/Milad/: birthday or simply birth

Since for you Milad is restricted to Christ’s birth in “Persian”, that means your understanding of the word solely derives from older Christian Aramaic (once again a Semitic language) speaking populations in Iraq, and was not developed any further in Farsi. Congratulations on your linguistic superiority.

<... off topic part removed by moderator ...>


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## LebaneseLinguist

PersoLatin said:


> I don't understand what you mean by theoretical here.
> 
> محراب meaning niche/sanctuary, does make sense and may be a borrowing.


The word for war حرب or root H-R-B in Arabic literally derives from Phoenician, with the same exact meaning, and root in Phoenician. (Both Semitic languages)

<... off-topic part removed by moderator...>


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## LebaneseLinguist

Ihsiin said:


> This thread is about the Arabic word ميلاد, not the Persian one. In Arabic the word ميلاد is commonly used to mean 'birth' or 'birthday'. Persian usage is irrelevant, please remain on topic.



The Farsi word Milad clearly derives from the Semites (whether Arabic or Aramaic).


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## LebaneseLinguist

CyrusSH said:


> In another thread there was a discussion about _Yalda_: Yaldā Night - Wikipedia some people say it is a Syriac word with the meaning of "birth", referring to  the birthday of Mithra, ancient Iranian sun god who was born at the winter solstice.
> 
> In Persian there is also Milad: Milad - Wikipedia which is said to be another form of Mithradates, some say it was the actual name of this festival which meant "birthday of Mithra", but in the 4th Century AD, when the Roman Empire started to become Christians, they kept the birthday of Mithra as the birthday of Christ.
> 
> Happy Yalda & Christmas!



Large leap from Mithra to the word Milad. They sound completely unrelated. Also Mithra sounds Indic.


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## fdb

LebaneseLinguist said:


> “La myaled, wala myolad”.



lam yalid wa lam yūlad.

The "m" is part of the negative particle “lam”.


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