# Persian: counting units/classifiers/numerators



## IMANAKBARI

سلام دوستان

من به دنبال واژه "واحد شمارش" به زبان انگلیسی هستم و میخوام در واقع بدونم اصلا اونها هم مثل ما واحد شمارش دارن ؟
مثلا ما در زبان فارسی میگوییم : 2 فروند هواپیما 5 راس گوسفند 2 قلاده سگ 1 نفر شتر و غیره

پیشاپیش از پاسختان ممنونم​


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## Treaty

در زبان انگلیسی واحد شمارش تخصصی وجود نداره ولی اصطلاحاتی هست که مثل واحد شمارش ما استفاده می شن که معمولا برای نامهای غیر قابل شمارش اند. در ضمن فکر نمی کنم فارسی هم تا صد سال پیش واحد شمارش داشته بوده
two _l__oaves _of bread
two _pieces _of meat
-----
بهتره این سوال رو در بخش انگلیسی بپرسی. احتمالا جوابهای خیلی کامل تری می گیری


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## IMANAKBARI

با تشکر از پاسخ و راهنمایی شما​


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## Qureshpor

Treaty said:


> در زبان انگلیسی واحد شمارش تخصصی وجود نداره ولی اصطلاحاتی هست که مثل واحد شمارش ما استفاده می شن که معمولا برای نامهای غیر قابل شمارش اند. در ضمن فکر نمی کنم فارسی هم تا صد سال پیش واحد شمارش داشته بوده
> two _l__oaves _of bread
> two _pieces _of meat
> -----
> بهتره این سوال رو در بخش انگلیسی بپرسی. احتمالا جوابهای خیلی کامل تری می گیری


What exactly is the query, aaqaa-ye-Treaty? I am not asking Imanakbari because he is most likely to reply in French, a language I am not acquainted with.


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## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> What exactly is the query(...)


The question is as you know, in Persian every thing have a numbering unit. For example the numbering unit for humans and camels is نفر, for airplane is فروند, for sheep is راس and so on. So if we want to say دو هواپيما, for example, we will say دو فروند هواپيما or instead of دو آدم we will say دو نفر. Are there such a numbering units in English too?


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## fdb

“Classifiers” or “numerators” are used only exceptionally in English, in certain set phrases, e.g. in “two head of cattle”. Normally, English, like other European languages, simply uses a number followed by a plural noun, e.g. “two students”.


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> The question is as you know, in Persian every thing have a numbering unit. For example the numbering unit for humans and camels is نفر, for airplane is فروند, for sheep is راس and so on. So if we want to say دو هواپيما, for example, we will say دو فروند هواپيما or instead of دو آدم we will say دو نفر. Are there such a numbering units in English too?


Thank you Morteza for the clarification. I shall think about this but the following come to mind.

10 *head* of cattle

5 *stem* of roses

3 *pair* of pants

Edit: I must have been preparing my post when fdb posted his, hence the overlap.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> *“Classifiers” or “numerators” are used only exceptionally in English, in certain set phrases, e.g. in “two head of cattle”. Normally, English, like other European languages, simply uses a number followed by a plural noun, e.g. “two students”.*



I think Persian also normally uses simple number and noun (singular, however). Maybe I'm wrong. Have anyone seen a genuine Persian text before 1800s that had used this structure? 
Personally, I assume it is an _invoice and receipt making_ jargon used by accountants (which is probably misunderstood by later users). 
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. There is only two words - دانه /dâne/ and تا /tâ/ - that are widely used in colloquial Persian.


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## Qureshpor

Treaty said:


> I think Persian also normally uses simple number and noun (singular, however). Maybe I'm wrong. Have anyone seen a genuine Persian text before 1800s that had used this structure?
> Personally, I assume it is an _invoice and receipt making_ jargon used by accountants (which is probably misunderstood by later users).
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> P.S. There is only two words - دانه /dâne/ and تا /tâ/ - that are widely used in colloquial Persian.


صد هزار دانه انگور از حجاب پوست شد 
چون نماند پوست ماند باده ها ی شهریار 
مولوی  

پس حکم کرد آتشی را و نکر 
تا شود حل مشکل آن دو نفر 
مولوی


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## marrish

Two loaves of bread. How is it in Persian?


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## searcher123

marrish said:


> Two loaves of bread. How is it in Persian?


دو قرص/عدد/تا نان


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## marrish

searcher123 said:


> دو قرص/عدد/تا نان


Thanks! So عدد is also commonly used alongwith دانه and  تا؟ Also, what does قرص exactly mean?


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## fdb

Dear Qureshpor, I cannot scan the first bayt by Mawlawi. Can you check whether it is correct?


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## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> Dear Qureshpor, I cannot scan the first bayt by Mawlawi. Can you check whether it is correct?


You are absolutely right. I typed it incorrectly..

sad hazaaraan..


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## searcher123

You are welcome.


marrish said:


> (...)So عدد is also commonly used alongwith دانه and  تا؟ (...)


دانه is not common for bread, but عدد and تا are completely common and between them, تا is much more common in colloquial.



marrish said:


> (...)So عدد is also commonly used alongwith دانه and  تا؟ (...)Also, what does قرص exactly mean?


قرص mean a "round loaf of bread". قرص is used just for untraditional circular breads such as *this bread*.


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## fdb

QURESHPOR said:


> You are absolutely right. I typed it incorrectly..
> 
> sad hazaaraan..



Very good. _sad hazārān dāna ang__ūr_ is an excellent example of an enumerator in Classical Persian (number + singular classifier + singular noun, without _i__ḍāfa_). 

Looking through my reading notes I found two interesting examples of _pāra_ as an enumerator for villages:

_du pāra d__ēh_, ʻArūḍī, Čahār maqāla, ed. Qazwīnī (text-only edition) p. 36, paen.
_panjāh pāra dēh_, Mustawfī, Nuzhat, ed. Dabīrsiyāqī, p. 190.

But Treaty is right. This is rare in pre-modern Persian.


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## marrish

searcher123 said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> دانه is not common for bread, but عدد and تا are completely common and between them, تا is much more common in colloquial.
> 
> 
> قرص mean a "round loaf of bread". قرص is used just for untraditional circular breads such as *this bread*.


Great explanation, thanks. I didn't suggest دانه for bread though, I was only relating to the above post by Treaty who said that only daaneh and taa are used but it seems 3adad which you introduced is also used. It is also widely used in Urdu. And how would you call those huge traditional kinds of bread I ate while in Iran?


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## Qureshpor

fdb said:


> Very good. _sad hazārān dāna ang__ūr_ is an excellent example of an enumerator in Classical Persian (number + singular classifier + singular noun, without _i__ḍāfa_).
> 
> Looking through my reading notes I found two interesting examples of _pāra_ as an enumerator for villages:
> 
> _du pāra d__ēh_, ʻArūḍī, Čahār maqāla, ed. Qazwīnī (text-only edition) p. 36, paen.
> _panjāh pāra dēh_, Mustawfī, Nuzhat, ed. Dabīrsiyāqī, p. 190.
> 
> But Treaty is right. This is rare in pre-modern Persian.


Thank you for this, fdb SaaHib. I have to confess that in my readings of Classical Persian prose (including Chahaar Maqaalah), I have n't really paid too much attention to this "enumerator". I shall keep a look out for these words (ra2s, daanah, 3adad etc) in the future. 

(In your Classical Persian prose/poetry readings, could you please make a note of the majhuul ye occurrence with the present stem of the Persian verb, e.g. kunade, baashade, kuname etc when it is being used used to depict NOT the irrealis but the habitual- Thanking you in advance.)


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## searcher123

marrish said:


> Great explanation, thanks. I didn't suggest دانه for bread though, I was only relating to the above post by Treaty who said that only daaneh and taa are used but it seems 3adad which you introduced is also used.(...)


You are welcome and sorry for my mistake  You are right, ‌دانه is common in colloquial too, but just for "one" bread. For more breads تا (in colloquial) and عدد (in formal) are much more common.

Example:
يه دونه نون بده (correct)
دو/سه/چهار/... دونه نون بده (wrong)
دو/سه/چهار/... تا نون بده (correct)
يك/دو/سه/... عدد نان بدهيد (correct but formal)



marrish said:


> (...)And how would  you call those huge traditional kinds of bread I ate while in  Iran?


Unfortunately I didn't understand what do you mean. Do you want the names of our traditional breads or their enumerators?


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## marrish

searcher123 said:


> You are welcome and sorry for my mistake  You are right, ‌دانه is common in colloquial too, but just for "one" bread. For more breads تا (in colloquial) and عدد (in formal) are much more common.
> 
> Example:
> يه دونه نون بده (correct)
> دو/سه/چهار/... دونه نون بده (wrong)
> دو/سه/چهار/... تا نون بده (correct)
> يك/دو/سه/... عدد نان بدهيد (correct but formal)
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't understand what do you mean. Do you want the names of our traditional breads or their enumerators?


Perfect, as it is the case with all your answers. I'd like to have the name of this huge bread, the enumerator being taa I suppose.


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> You are welcome and sorry for my mistake  You are right, ‌دانه is common in colloquial too, but just for "one" bread. For more breads تا (in colloquial) and عدد (in formal) are much more common.
> 
> Example:
> يه دونه نون بده (correct)
> دو/سه/چهار/... دونه نون بده (wrong)
> دو/سه/چهار/... تا نون بده (correct)
> يك/دو/سه/... عدد نان بدهيد (correct but formal)


I am surprised why this would be considered wrong when it is correct with "yek/yeh".


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## searcher123

marrish said:


> Perfect, as it is the case with all your answers.(...)


اين نظر لطف شما است و مايه‌ي مباهات بنده اگر توانسته باشم كمكي هرچند كوچك كرده باشم



marrish said:


> I'd like to have the name of this huge bread, the enumerator being taa I suppose.


Oh yes. I think you mean *نان تافتان/تافتون*. That is the only bread with a "taa" at the begging, but it is not so huge  *نان سنگك* is much more bigger. Other Iranian traditional breads are لواش and بربري (barbarii).

Examples:

اومدي خونه، يه دونه سنگك/تافتون/بربري/لواش هم بخر
------------------------------------
اومدي خونه، دو تا سنگك/تافتون/بربري/لواش هم بخر
------------------------------------
ديروز اونقدر گشنم بود كه ٢ تا سنگك را تنهايي خوردم
------------------------------------
جات خالي! سه تا سنگك خريديم با يه آبگوشت مشتي زديم تو رگ! آي چسبيد!


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## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> I am surprised why this would be considered wrong when it is correct with "yek/yeh".


Simply because no one will say so and if you say so, all people will look at you as a stranger


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> Simply because no one will say so and if you say so, all people will look at you as a stranger


Well, I am a stranger, anyway! But, there does not seem to be any logic behind this.


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## Treaty

QURESHPOR said:


> صد هزار دانه انگور از حجاب پوست شد
> چون نماند پوست ماند باده ها ی شهریار
> مولوی
> 
> پس حکم کرد آتشی را و نکر
> تا شود حل مشکل آن دو نفر
> مولوی


Thanks, but it is not what I meant. _dane _is not an enumerator here. It is (measuring) classifier whose role is to distinguish between _dane _and cluster (_khusheh,_same for _gandom_ and _anar_). And _nafar_ comes without a noun after it. It's very common in Persion to use _nafar _instead of human, but it's rare, even in formal Persian, to use it as enumerator. My problem is with pure enumerator which you can omit without changing or baffling the meaning, e.g. _farvand, ra's, takhte, qaladeh, _etc.


fdb said:


> Looking through my reading notes I found two interesting examples of _pāra_ as an enumerator for villages:
> 
> _du pāra d__ēh_, ʻArūḍī, Čahār maqāla, ed. Qazwīnī (text-only edition) p. 36, paen.
> _panjāh pāra dēh_, Mustawfī, Nuzhat, ed. Dabīrsiyāqī, p. 190.
> 
> But Treaty is right. This is rare in pre-modern Persian.


Thank you. This is interesting. It suggests that I was wrong. But, there is still a possibility that their concept of village integrity differed from us. It may be a kind of classifying.


searcher123 said:


> دو/سه/چهار/... دونه نون بده (wrong)


I have heard many people using it. Probably, it varies by region and dialect.


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## searcher123

Treaty said:


> I have heard many people using it. Probably, it varies by region and dialect.


So that is wrong in Tehran. In Tehran دو/سه/چهار/... دونه is used as a joke!.


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## Treaty

searcher123 said:


> So that is wrong in Tehran. In Tehran دو/سه/چهار/... دونه is used as a joke!.


Many jokes are originated from mocking of other dialects. The fact that an expression is not correct in Tehrani and Official dialects, doesn't make it wrong in Persian. Fifty years ago people in other cities mocked Tehranis because of their pronunciation and sentence structure.


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