# hat, head covering



## ThomasK

I went into the "hat" term elsewhere, but I think I can formulate my question better ten years later. The starting point is that it is funny for speakers of Dutch to refer to hear speakers refer to certain head covers as "hoeden" [hats].

I have been thinking about it on this frosty Saturday morning and I think my question would be: *what are the main ("basic") distinction you make as for head covers?*

We distinguish mainly between ttwo, perhaps hree, kinds of head covers,, to which I added links to give you an idea:
- *hoed *: solid, higher than the top of the head, with a rim
- *muts *: not solid/ soft, "wrapping" the head or almost/ not high, no rim
- *pet*:  not really solid, having a prominent "bill" (the part protecting against the sun)
I think that the pet is fairly recent (American influence: baseball pet), probably based on a _toupet_. (coined in 1806 only). I have not added *veil *because that term seems to be clear as such.


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## Dymn

If I understood your definitions I'd say we also have 3 general types in Catalan/Spanish:

*Spanish*:
hoed - _sombrero _(from _sombra _"shade")
pet - _gorra_ (unknown origin)
muts - _gorro _(a "masculinization" of the latter)

*Catalan*:
hoed - _barret_ (Catalonia; cf. _beret_, from Late Latin _birrus_ "a type of cloak", ultimately from Celtic) _/ capell _(Balearic Islands; from Vulgar Latin _cappellus_, from _cappa _"cape")
pet - _gorra_
muts - _gorro_


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks. But mind you: maybe in Spanish/ Catalan the main distinctions might be different as the climate is different. Feel free to make your own main distinction!

Just BTW: I googled for some of the words mentioned (adding some specific words typical of the target language!!!) and it is interesting to see what you get hard or soft hats, with a (broad) rim, high or wrapped around the head, etc...


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## Dymn

It looks fine to me. I would never consider a _gorro _a _gorra, _or vice versa, nor I would consider any of them _barrets_. And I'd say most soft headcovers can be defined as _gorros_, even if they have their own names.



ThomasK said:


> I think English uses "hat" for non-solid ;-) head covers ('confirmed by Google when googling for "hat"), but I'll develop that into a new thread.


That's not possible at all in Catalan/Spanish.

Also helmets and crowns don't fall into the definition of _hat _either, not even in English I guess.


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## ThomasK

Dymn said:


> I would never consider


Consider: do you mean "I would not consider wearing a gorro"?

Not sure... When I looked for _sombrero _- thereby adding Spanish words - I got the famous _sombrero _and some hard hats... Without I only got the traditional straw hat. So it is important to add words, to make sure the search is based on a "linguistic culture"...



ThomasK said:


> *hoed *: solid, higher than the top of the head, with a rim


 I think I ought to add something: decorative (at least to some extent, no longer purely functional), though of course about any hat/... can become a symbol....


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## Circunflejo

I would add boina to the Spanish list.


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## apmoy70

Hoed: *«Καπέλο»* [kaˈpe.lɔ] (neut.) < It. _cappello_.
In Katharevousa Gr. it was *«πῖλος»* [ˈpi.lɔs] (masc.) < Classical Gr. *«πῖλος» pîlos* (masc.) --> initially the _wool_ or _hair cap_, later _any hat/cap made of felt_ (of unknown etymology; for Beekes it's probably an ancient Wanderwort of unknown origin spread into the Greek, Latin (pilleus, _feltcap_), Germanic (PG *filtiz/*feltaz > OHG filz), Slavic (Old East Slavic пълстъ > Rus. полсть, _feltcover_ languages.).
The _flat cap_ is called *«τραγιάσκα»* [tra'ʝas.ka] (fem.) from the Romanian _trăiască_; the Romanian word is an interjenction and lit. means _up with! hurrah!_
We probably named it this way, because we associated the throwing in the air of the flat cap with the cheer _trăiască!_ as they did in Romania.

The _homburg_ hat is called *«ρεπούμπλικα»* [ɾe'pu.bli.ka] (fem.) an Italian loanword, _reppublica_. We named the homburg hat this way in the '30s, because we associated the throwing in the air of the hat with the anti-monarchy Italian exclamation _Reppublica!_ (and in Greece existed in the '30s strong anti-monarchy sentiments as well).

The _top hat_ is *«ημίψηλο καπέλο»* [iˈmi.p͡si.lɔ kaˈpe.lɔ] (both neut.) --> lit. _semi-top hat_. It's semi-top, because we had named the earlier _stovepipe hat_, «ψηλό καπέλο» [p͡siˈlɔ kaˈpe.lɔ] (both neut.) --> _high/top hat_.

Muts: *«Σκούφος»* [ˈsku.fɔs] (masc.), or *«σκουφί»* [skuˈfi] (neut.) < Byz. Gr. fem. *«σκουφ(φ)ία» skouph(ph)ía* --> _beanie, woolly hat_ < Late Lat. _scuffia_ (probably a Germanic loanword).

Pet: *«Τζόκεϊ»* [ˈʣ͡ɔ.ce.i] (neut.) < Eng. _Jockey hat_.


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## ThomasK

Very interesting, Apmoy, as usual ;-)! So you have adopted an Italian word (or even two, and from Romanian) for a very common object. Is there some "rationale" for that, do you think? So I guess /pilos/ is the root or shares the root we also find in _pellicules_...


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## symposium

In Italian:
-hoed: cappello (cappello di paglia=straw hat; cappello a cilindro=top hat; cappellino=women's hat...)
-muts: berretto
-pet: also berretto or "berretto con visiera" or "berretto da baseball".


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## ThomasK

Perfect, thanks. Etymonline.com suggests it refers back to "Late Latin _birrus, _"a large hooded cloak"...


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## ThomasK

@apmoy70 (and all): you are referring to lots of "head covers". Not the topic here, but very interesting as such. But where could I find a list of names of such hats, either in English only or in various languages? Thanks in advance...


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> *Catalan*:
> hoed - _barret_ (Catalonia; cf. _beret_, from Late Latin _birrus_ "a type of cloak", ultimately from Celtic) _/ capell _(Balearic Islands; from Vulgar Latin _cappellus_, from _cappa _"cape")
> pet - _gorra_
> *muts - *_*gorro*_



I'd point out that, while it's true that _gorro _is the word most Catalans speakers use, it is not an accepted word in the standard dictionaries (only in the Valencian one, in which it's marked as a colloquialism). The formal standard either uses _*casquet *_(Doraemon's famous _casquet volador_) or merges it with _gorra_, which would reduce it to two words, as in English.

Traditionally Catalan used _barret _and _barreta _for cap/hat and _capell _for hat (as Majorca still does). Only in recent centuries _barret _acquired the meaning of hat. That explains why the Catalan barretina is a sort of _gorro/gorra_ and not a _barret _in its modern sense, as it came from the previous meaning.


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## Dymn

Penyafort said:


> I'd point out that, while it's true that _gorro _is the word most Catalans speakers use, it is not an accepted word in the standard dictionaries


I had no idea 



Penyafort said:


> The formal standard either uses _*casquet *_(Doraemon's famous _casquet volador_)


Hmmm I had never thought about it. That's why I've always found funny the French _casquette_, I've always pictured something similar to Doraemon's flying cap, with the propeller and everything...


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> I'd point out that, while it's true that _gorro _is the word most Catalans speakers use, it is not an accepted word in the standard dictionaries (only in the Valencian one, in which it's marked as a colloquialism).


It's on the Alcover-Moll.


ThomasK said:


> head covers


The generic term in Spanish would be tocados. If I'm not wrong, in Catalan it would be lligadures.


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> That's why I've always found funny the French _casquette_, I've always pictured something similar to Doraemon's flying cap, with the propeller and everything...





The funny thing is that, while gorro is most probably not accepted because it's regarded as a Castilianism, both casquet (and the French casquette too) come from the Spanish _casco_. 



Circunflejo said:


> It's on the Alcover-Moll.



Which is the best Catalan dictionary by far and probably one of the best dictionaries in any Romance language.

But let's not forget that much of its info is already more than 60 years old and it is not a standard dictionary. The bibliographical source is interesting, though, as it would mean that the loanword is an old one (16th century), although there's only one reference of it.


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## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> But let's not forget that much of its info is already more than 60 years old and it is not a standard dictionary. The bibliographical source is interesting, though, as it would mean that the loanword is an old one (16th century), although there's only one reference of it.


The question would be why a word that has been in use for centuries and, as you said, (nowadays) it's the word used by most Catalan speakers isn't standard Catalan.


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## ThomasK

I suppose it happens from time to time that an original word is replaced by a new one. It would be interesting to find out the "(ir)rationality" of it...


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## Yendred

Penyafort said:


> The funny thing is that, while gorro is most probably not accepted because it's regarded as a Castilianism, both casquet (and the French casquette too) come from the Spanish _casco_.



Yes indeed, etymologically, French _casquette__ (_Spanish _gorr*a*, _English _cap) _is a small _casque_ (Spanish _casco_, English _helmet, _in its military or motorcycle form). Oddly enough, _casquette _is soft, and _casque _is hard.
Not really in the scope of this thread, but in French _casque_ is also the noun for English _audio headphone/headset_ or Spanish _auricular_.

French _bonnet_ (Spanish _gorr_*o*) has no real specific English translation, does it? Maybe _wool hat _or _knit cap_.

And finally, French _chapeau_ (Spanish _sombrero_, English _hat_).


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## Olaszinhok

Yendred said:


> French _bonnet_ (Spanish _gorr_*o*


Some of those _bonnets/gorros_ are called _cuffia/e_ in Italian. _Cuffie_ also mean headphones


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## Dymn

Yendred said:


> Not really in the scope of this thread, but in French _casque_ is also the noun for English _audio headphone/headset_ or Spanish _auricular_.


Those can be called _cascos _colloquially in Spanish as well. Although it's true _auriculares _includes both head- and earphones.


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## Yendred

Dymn said:


> Although it's true _auriculares _includes both head- and earphones.



_casque _matches _*head*phone_s better, although colloquially it can also match _*ear*phones_, but the proper noun for _earphones _is _écouteurs_ (literally _listeners/escuchadores_).


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## Yendred

Should I also mention the famous French _béret_?
Since the _béret _originally comes from Basque Country, Spanish also has a specific noun for it: _boina_


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## ThomasK

Casque/ casco: I suppose it all started with a muts covering the ears and then moved on to the headphones covering them (and maybe alsmost used as some kind of head cover nowadays)....


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## Yendred

Some Italian:
_Un gran casco, un gran turbante,
Molto onor, poco contante.
Ed invece del fandango,
Una marcia per il fango._

(Fans will appreciate )


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## Assiduous student

I don't think "head cover" is a correct term in English. It should be "head covering".


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## ThomasK

I am sorry, I was not aware of that, but I am pleased to learn this!


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## Penyafort

Circunflejo said:


> The question would be why a word that has been in use for centuries and, as you said, (nowadays) it's the word used by most Catalan speakers isn't standard Catalan.



Specially when other unnecessary ones ending in -o, like _caldo _or _burro,_ have been accepted. Yes, I don't understand it either. I never say caldo or burro when speaking in Catalan, but I use gorro ['goru] indeed.


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