# men-women relations nowadays



## Seana

Reading the thread about 'greetings' and taking the reason of last *badgrammar* post I have decided to open the new thread about relation between men and women. 

Perhaps I will copy *meltam* text to show it as a most wise sentence I could recently hear about the relation men-women. 

Quote
"I think this is not wholly a human creation. It's part of the nature where males are expected to be protecting the females and taking care of them. It dates back to very early days of human nature, I guess, and we have just made up on these instincts. When a man fills my glass or holds my coat or lets me first to enter etc, it gives me the feeling that he takes care of me. It's just like the protecting behaviours of a mother to the baby. Why most of the women like it is because the major thing a woman looks for in a man is the feeling of security. 
I agree that we have to leave some of these behaviours in the modern world, but why completely leave all of these natural instictive things? Equality is not woman=man. It's about the social rights".


I don't know exactly whether it is a problem in your countries but in Poland majority of school teachers are women and a model of matriarchal system exists in most Polish families.
Raising children are taught and brought up by totally feminised education without proper male models the reality of everyday life leads us to the world with the women more and more strong and submissive dominating and the same time the men are more and more weak and less responsible. It is neither good nor normal state. In my opinion the way we are going ( women and men ) could be the way to nowhere.
Nowadays I see women too much aggressive, stressed, lost, very often fighting with illness former reserved only for the men. Most of us ( women) have... such the seriously problems...we do... such a terrible seriously job. How could we find the place and time to be a nice whife and mother among these awful duties. 
Would you give me an answer what is really encrypted in our women nature? Is it an aggression, fight, making the serious contracts and the participation in boring conferences, the weight of supporting a family or love, beauty, the poetry, flowers, perfume, fashionable clotheses, the attentiveness and the protectiveness.
Unfortunately, I am choosing the second part of the last sentence.

I apologize for my poor English.

Seana


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## Etcetera

In Russia, the majority of school teachers are women, too. I had had only two man teachers for all the times I spent at school. Now that I am at the University, here there is a lot a man teahers, but women are still larger in number. Education seems to be the only field where feminism ultimately won a long time ago!

Personally, I wouldn't like to depend on anyone - I prefer to be on my own. But still I'd like to have someone I may trust in difficult circumstances. Unfortunately, as Natasha pointed out in the previous discussion,


> Many men can be so "nice" and play gentleman game when it comes to pleasure, but in hardships they simply - disappear...


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## Brioche

As a general rule, any occupation which is heavily feminised has low pay, and poor working conditions.

Prime examples are child care and waitressing.

Certainly in Australia over the last 30 years, the relative salaries and status of teachers have decreased, and the proportion of women in the "profession" has increased.


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## Etcetera

It's interesing, Brioche. 
I've just thought that, indeed, before 1917 school teachers in Russia were mainly men, and they were well respected people. I don't know if their salaries were high, but I suppose it might be so. 
And after 1917 communists came, and teaching gradually became feminised...


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## Seana

All those social niceties and subtlety by the table we mentioned earlier I see only as a symbol of giving certainty and support by the man for his woman or family. 
But really, all those things without real responsibility and steady liability could be only empty gestures of refined nice man then.

I think the women in spite of the poorness of pay are really good teachers but the adolescence boys should have the little bigger contact with the men. Very busy daddies are pressed for time for them too.


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## meltem

Thank you for the thread Seana. In fact, with english I really try hard to express what I want with proper words.

Whenever there's a human-related problem, what I usually do is to look for the answer in the nature. For sure, we are not animals, and we have built a lot over our nature, but none can make us be completely separate from our instincts while whatever happens human's major thing is "still" to make his race continue. 
If you like watching documentary programs on TV that gives scientific explanations about social events, you'll notice that unbelievingly under most of the actions we do in our life our insticts lie.
I agree that we still live in a patriarchic world, in some countries you can feel it much more, I also find it frustrating when a man thinks that a woman's place is home, and she shouldn't put her nose in the social matters. I want the woman to be an equal individual, but my doubt is, where will it end, I just question myself, the woman will be "just like man" outside home where the gender is not important, but it will definetely affect the woman-man relationships as well, will the woman at one point be rebelling against everything man does for her, is the man going to be afraid to be any protecting over her, will the woman be ashamed of herself for longing for the care of the man? And what about the family structure, will she say "I don't want to look after children" which has already started in the modern life? I don't claim that woman's major duty is taking care of children because as I'm a modern girl, I don't want to do this either, I want to show myself in the society. But don't all these look a bit conflicting to you either? While your mind tells you that "you can take care of yourself, you're not a baby, your one side terribly wants to be the woman of your home and the little girl of your husband.." Maybe, we should just make a balance for example at least trying not to be disturbed of the little gestures a man does for you like opening the door, pouring your wine, holding his umbrella over you etc...

I think as human we have gone too far, I mean about development, social relationships etc. We have gone so far that we have started to conflict with the nature. I would never want to go back to the caves, but now we struggle with these things.


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## Seana

Hi,


			
				meltem said:
			
		

> (...) I think as human we have gone too far, I mean about development, social relationships etc. We have gone so far that we have started to conflict with the nature. I would never want to go back to the caves, but now we struggle with these things.


Aren't they my words ? I am sure they are. 
Unfortunately *meltem *I am sure another thing, we won't find too many supporters for your sentences you are written here. What is a pity. 
In my opinion sooner or later women would shoutt "_Break it up! __I want to opt out."_ But it will be no way back.


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## meltem

Seana said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Aren't they my words ? I am sure they are.
> Unfortunately *meltem *I am sure another thing, we won't find too many supporters for your sentences you are written here. What is a pity.
> In my opinion sooner or later women would shoutt "_Break it up! __I want to opt out."_ But it will be no way back.


 
Yes, they're also your words  Maybe because we think the same about it. But I don't criticize that we have developped, but just maybe too much development and socializing is against the nature and therefore these things come up inevitably.​


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## emma42

Meltem and seana, I do really understand what you are saying and I appreciate your honesty in sharing your thoughts.  I do have some sympathy with your views.


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## badgrammar

Well, now that this thread is open, perhaps then it is an ideal place to debate the issue that keeps coming up in other threads.  I am glad you have some sympathy with these views, Emma, but here is a good occasion to voice your objections!  Then perhaps we can get it out in the open and will not need to hijack other threads to debate male-female relationships.

So I'll throw this out there:  In the struggle for equal social (and economic and civil) rights for women, as in any other struggle for emancipation, it was necessary to change things radically in order to get the ball rolling.

In other words, the Gloria Steinems of this world are true heroes, because they shook up the status quo, put the subject out in the open, and declared "No more!".  Like most, it could not be a peaceful revolution, and radical change was the only way to assure that.  Down with the patriarchy, down with male oppression, down with unequal treatment, down with sexist behavior...  and up with female empowerment.  It couldn't have been done without bra-burnings and radical ideas.

Now, some years later, the battle for equal rights still goes on.  But, and here's my theory, we had to go so far to get the point accross and get the ball rolling, that at some point, women have had to give up certain things, in the name of being liberated, that they actually enjoyed, and some things that are perhaps "instinctual". 

And what about men in all this?  Surely it has also created a lot of confusion for men, even for good, open-minded men.   They have been told they were doing it all wrong, that following their protective instincts was an insult, that we don't need them at all.  Not for anything.  I don't know, yes, perhaps that's going too far.   Perhaps as women we have aked them to go against their instincts, and we have forced ourselves to go agianst ours.

Nobody wants to go back to the fifties, but it would be nice if we could find the way to a middle ground....


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## maxiogee

wsitiplaju said:
			
		

> He insists that I walk through the door he holds, and refuses to walk through when I hold the door for him.



That sums up your problem in a sentence —> He's a pig!
I will always, as I said, hold a door open for whoever I am with, and for anyone coming along as I hold it. But, I will also gratefully accept the compliment when someone else holds the door for me.
Courtesy is what it is - not patriarchy or male chauvinism, common courtesy for others, regardless of who they are.

The on-topic bit
-----------------
Unfortunately, holding the door for people tends to stop them from making physical contact, or even greeting one properly. Watch it in operation some time. The person for whom the door is being held may say "thank you" as they pass through, but that's about it. They often don't even make eye contact!


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## Gatamariposa

I am watching many of the boys that I teach grow up without a strong male role model and the effects that it is having on them is frightening.  Some find the help they need at school and others just rebel in a desperate plea for attention from anyone.
Teaching it is still a very female-dominated arena, although there are fewer women in the higher paid jobs!  It's often hard to draw the line at the teacher -student relationship especially when you know about the home lives.


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## Etcetera

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Nobody wants to go back to the fifties, but it would be nice if we could find the way to a middle ground....


Nobody except me, perhaps.

You know, however strong I may insist on the point that men should be polite and nice towards women, in fact I prefer to do everything myself. For a man pulling my chair for me is a tricky thing, because he has to be just quicker than I am, and it's almost impossible.


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## emma42

Oh, Etcetera!  You are funny.  

In relation to teaching.  Yes, in elementary schools here there are far too few male teachers, which is not best for the children.  There are loads at secondary level, though (11-18).


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## Etcetera

I know, Emma.

British children are just lucky. Here male teachers are few, even at universities. But at universities at also depends on the faculy. For example, at my Faculty of Philology most teachers are female, but at the Faculty for Jurisprudence most are male.


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## emma42

I will open a new thread on male/female teachers.


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## Seana

Hi,
It's a pity that male/female education was escaped from this thread, because just education of young people has influence on the majority of behaviours and relationship between men and women.


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## emma42

Hi Seana. Sorry! I was trying to be sensible. I think we could still talk about how teachers etc influence children's perception of gender roles and male/female relationships, but I thought we were going off topic because of starting to talk in general about ratio of male/female teachers etc.

If people think I should not have started a new thread, maybe a Mod could offer a solution?

Cor, can't do right for doing wrong sometimes!


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## Etcetera

I think we *can* go on discussing this influence of teachers on children here. 
And the problem of male/female teachers in general definitely deserves its own thread! Why not?


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## Benjy

the topic chosen is very broad. the question of what is off and what is on topic is pretty subjective. aren't you glad you don't have to take stick for trying to keep order  don't think the teacher discussion is off topic. as long as it relates to men-women relationships.

i personally sometimes get rather confused as to what to do in any number of situations.

you have a girl (who is friend) in front of you carrying a load of heavy books on to campus for example. what do you do? 99% of the females i know really appreciate tho offer to give them a hand, but sometimes i just get paranoid that me offering help comes across "you are not capable of carring those books, you are a girl" instead of "i would like to help you carry them because i like you. plus i have a good 20 pounds and 6 inches on you and could probably carry them a lot easier."

i just don't know anymore


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## emma42

Ah, Benjy!  Just ask yourself would you do the same if a male friend was struggling?  I would accept your help, unless you said "Let me take those for you, little lady"!


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## Benjy

emma42 said:
			
		

> Ah, Benjy!  Just ask yourself would you do the same if a male friend was struggling?  I would accept your help, unless you said "Let me take those for you, little lady"!



i wouldn't even wonder about it, i would definitely offer.


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## emma42

I thought you would (presumptuous, moi!)  Has the girl/book situation ever arisen for you?


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## robbie_SWE

Very interesting replies! When this girl kissed my hand, it was on the top-side, not the palm. She's Swedish, so there isn't any good explanation and she already had a boyfriend. I didn't complain, but it felt very uncomfortable!  

The whole subject is actually linked to culture. As a kid I was surrounded by very strong women, who taught me to respect all women and show them that I respect them to the fullest. It actually does hurt my feelings if a woman dislikes the courtesy I show her. 

It's not chauvinistic; it's just my way of showing the huge respect I have towards her. Needless to say, guys like me are always the losers, because there are many women out there that just don't like this type of treatment. Unfortunately disrespectful guys receive a lot bigger space to be in than the "nice" guys.


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## Etcetera

That's most sad. 
At my Faculty of Philology, guys are very, very few, so we girls just have to do everything ourselves, including carrying heavy books from and to the library... So, some courtesy would be more than welcome.


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## Seana

I thought about all arguments given here and I am probably guessing a secret why some women are hurt by displaying the difference of the sex. It is sticking with this Polish proverb "there is well where is no us".
Perhaps I am generalizing the topic but in my opinion when woman does some male job she is thinking herself in her heart of hearts to be less independent and she wants to have more female less responsible and stressful job, being treat as Fair Lady with all those unfashionable social nicest and opposite if her occupation is more female she wants to have serious male duty and be equal tread by everybody.


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## Fernando

After reading this thread: You women, can you understand why we (men) are in a total mess?



			
				Etcetera said:
			
		

> At my Faculty of Philology, guys are very, very few, so we girls just have to do everything ourselves, including carrying heavy books from and to the library... So, some courtesy would be more than welcome.


Do you want men or workhorses?


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## cuchuflete

Etcetera said:
			
		

> That's most sad.
> At my Faculty of Philology, guys are very, very few, so we girls just have to do everything ourselves, including carrying heavy books from and to the library... So, some courtesy would be more than welcome.



If it is really courtesy that would be welcome, then do the bigger, stronger women offer to carry heavy books for the smaller, weaker women?


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## emma42

I do!  I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable.


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## maxiogee

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> If it is really courtesy that would be welcome, then do the bigger, stronger women offer to carry heavy books for the smaller, weaker women?



Don't be ridiculous!   They carry the smaller ones!


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## cuchuflete

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Don't be ridiculous!   They carry the smaller ones!


 Please clarify. Do you mean they carry the smaller books, or.......


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## Mariaguadalupe

I guess the joke they sent me related to this thread must not be posted here, right? Besides its in Spanish!

On a more serious note, I appreciate the equality that was gained for us by Gloria Steinem and other women before her.  I was raised in a conservative household that granted freedom of speech to everyone in an era where this was the exception and not the rule.  My mother graduated more than 57 years ago as a chemist, a big exception for a mexican woman of an extremely conservative family.  I believe that it was precisely this circumstance that allowed us to become and achieve what we have until now.  However, although she gave us a big push towards extremely rewarding careers, she also settled us with strong weights to keep us grounded.  She made us extremely conscious of our obligations towards our respective families.  

As a junior high/secondary teacher, I saw how young people were affected when their parents were not by their side.   The more I saw troubled teens, the more committed I became to be there for my own children.  I have studied several courses on family guidance and it always comes back to our respective roles inside society and especially, within our family.  _We must never cede our roles as mothers and family caretakers if we want to raise wonderful, well adjusted, well rounded human beings._  Its not easy but it is definitely worth it!

I have been saying for a long time that I am raising the perfect husbands for the 21st century! (Robbie, they too are not valued for all the respect and courtesy they show towards their peers.  Although, the mothers of young ladies have been calling constantly!)


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## Benjy

emma42 said:
			
		

> Ah, Benjy!  Just ask yourself would you do the same if a male friend was struggling?  I would accept your help, unless you said "Let me take those for you, little lady"!



i thought about this on my way to my analysis exam this afternoon. the whle reversing the role thing.

if i was outside a pub and i got random abuse from a guy, and he hit me, i would have no qualms about giving as good as i got. what if it was a female? of all the taboos about men/women and their relationships is that men _never_ hit women. but if they really don't need men to stick up for them at all why should this be so? 

i don't want anyone to think i am for blokes smacking women about. i have seen quite a bit of domestic violence, and the results  but men and women are different in a number of areas and there are plenty of things i would offer to do for girls that i might not make a point of doing for my male friends. i don't think there is anything wrong with that. is there?


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## emma42

But would you carry your male friends' books?


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## Benjy

yes! like i said in the post before, if i saw a mate struggling with his books i wouldn't even hesitate. 

but the otherday i was on dartmoor walking with some friends and my girlfriend started to get a bit knackered walking up the hill, so i gave her a shoulder ride. i don't think if my best mate had started flagging that i would have offered the same service.


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## Etcetera

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> If it is really courtesy that would be welcome, then do the bigger, stronger women offer to carry heavy books for the smaller, weaker women?


They do, of course.
What else are we to do without courteous men around?


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## maxiogee

Benjy said:
			
		

> if i was outside a pub and i got random abuse from a guy, and he hit me, i would have no qualms about giving as good as i got. what if it was a female? of all the taboos about men/women and their relationships is that men _never_ hit women.



Hitting back after a blow has been struck invites another blow, and almost legitimises it. For this reason hitting back is often not a good idea
That said, I see no reason why a woman shouldn't hit back at someone who hits her, if she feels confident enough to be able to hold her own in any ensuing melee. She might feel that there are enough people around to come to her aid should the thug get the upper hand.

This consideration goes counter to my own instincts of non-violence, which would just urge me to walk away.


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## robbie_SWE

A very interesting point made by Benjy before. I tried once to help a girl that had started an argument with another man (it started to get a bit hostile), but needless to say my effort wasn't appreciated. 

I think that guys here in Sweden are afraid to do anything when it comes to a girl. My worst nightmare is to be in the presence of a crying woman. EVERY TIME I have tried to comfort them and ask them what's wrong they just push me away. I was even slapped in the face once by a girl that didn't want consolidation. 

My mother razed me up to be "the perfect husband of the 21st century" too, but that hasn't necessarily helped me. Girls in Sweden mostly fall for the "old-fashioned" guy, who does nothing to help her and usually misuse her. I have yet to meet a woman who appreciates a man like me or a man like Mariaguadalupe  is raising…


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## gato2

Es extraño pero aunque es cierto que yo creo que hay que comportarse de una forma igualitaria no puedo evitar indignarme si cuando voy de viaje con mi novio no lleva el MI pesada maleta.


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## Fernando

gato2 said:
			
		

> Es extraño pero aunque es cierto que yo creo que hay que comportarse de una forma igualitaria no puedo evitar indignarme si cuando voy de viaje con mi novio no lleva el MI pesada maleta.



A mí no me parece extraño por tu parte. Sacas un provecho. Si luego no le echas una chapa sobre la igualdad todo va bien.


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## emma42

Ah, Robbie.  It certainly sounds as though you are just trying to be a compassionate and caring human being.  You are not alone in bemoaning the "fact" that the nice guys are never appreciated.  I often used to hear this from guys when I was your age.  Lots of women do want nice guys, you know (but not doormats).  I am certain that one day you will be appreciated for the nice guy you are.  You are still only young, and there is plenty of time!


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## cuchuflete

emma42's post makes me wonder about a related question:

Why are Advice to the lovelorn columns in newspapers only written by females?  

If this is off-topic, I'm sure some nice mod will delete it, and suggest I get good female advice.


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## emma42

Cuchuflete, I think it is because newspaper editors think that people are more likely to confide in a woman than a man because of women's reputation as more apt to listen and suggest, rather than offer direct solutions.  Interestingly, we have quite a famous Agony Uncle, who offers advice to teenagers and is really popular.  I can't remember his name, so maybe he's not that famous, or maybe I'm not a teenager.


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## cuchuflete

On this side of the puddle, Agony Aunties are all female.  The closest I've seen on the male side is a gent who offers advice on the physical aspects of loving.  He's a gay male, but dispenses wisdom to all comers.


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## Fernando

My experienced advice to Robbie. You can either:

1) Quit the nice guy approach

or

2) Quit the secular life. Friars or jesuits are nice options. You will get similar results with women and you will help some people.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Why are Advice to the lovelorn columns in newspapers only written by females?



Because 

1) Most women praise themselves of knowing about "relations". Most men I know have a more socratic approach.

2) Most women care about relations. I mean, they are good readers of those columns.

3) Most women I know share the (1) view: If a man gave some advice they would simply scorn it.


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## emma42

Robbie, don't listen to Fernando!  You *are *a nice guy and must be true to yourself.

I really would not scorn advice given by a man, as long as it was given with sympathy and humanity.


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## robbie_SWE

Sorry, but I know just a little Spanish, not enough to understand everything. 

What did Gato2 and Fernando say?


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## robbie_SWE

BECOME A JESUIT/FRIAR  ! So my options are pretty slim...Just have to toughen up I guess (just kiddin) ! 
 
Thank you Emma42 for you encouragement and nice words. I'll just have to stick to my thing and wait until I'm appreciated  
 
PS: I think, and hope, that University life is a bit more different. Even if we Swedes consider ourselves to be adults at a very young age, were definitely NOT! The people I have encountered at my gymnasium (I think it's the equivalent of Secondary School/High-School) are anything but adults! Maybe a more "compassionate" approach will evolve in other people with age. 
 
What do you guys think?
 
/robbie


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## cuchuflete

gato2 said:
			
		

> Es extraño pero aunque es cierto que yo creo que hay que comportarse de una forma igualitaria no puedo evitar indignarme si cuando voy de viaje con mi novio no lleva el MI pesada maleta.


Quick, rough translation-

It is strange, but although it's certain that I think that people should behave in an egalitarian way, I cannot help but get indignant when I go on vacation with my partner and he doesn't carry MY heavy suitcase.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> A mí no me parece extraño por tu parte. Sacas un provecho. Si luego no le echas una chapa sobre la igualdad todo va bien.


 I don't find it strange on your part. You are enjoying an advantage. If you don't give him a talk about equality later, all is well.


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## emma42

If he's stronger than you, then he should help, regardless of gender, gato.  Thank you for the translation, Cuchuflete.


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## Fernando

Please, note it is just my poor translation



			
				gato2 said:
			
		

> Es extraño pero aunque es cierto que yo creo que hay que comportarse de una forma igualitaria no puedo evitar indignarme si cuando voy de viaje con mi novio no lleva el MI pesada maleta.



It is strange, though it is true I think people should behave in a egualitarian basis, I can not avoid to annoy if, when travelling together, my boyfriend does not carry my heavy luggage.

My answer:

"A mí no me parece extraño por tu parte. Sacas un provecho. Si luego no le echas una chapa sobre la igualdad todo va bien."

It is not strange for me. You take some advantage. All is OK assuming you do not bother him talking about "equality".

EDIT: I had not noticed Cuchuflete's translation. Of course it is better than mine.


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## maxiogee

When you go on holiday whose suitcase is heavier (and I won't at present ask why!)? And if he is to carry your suitcase, who is to carry his?


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## Fernando

maxiogee said:
			
		

> When you go on holiday whose suitcase is heavier (and I won't at present ask why!)? And if he is to carry your suitcase, who is to carry his?



I think tegato2 will allow him to carry also his suitcase.

Just as a help for him to balance. Otherwise the weight of her suitcase will pull him over.


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## Seana

Hi guys,

I am curious whether after two-day meetings and conferences it is established at last who the hell should carry these suitcases ?  And books.


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## Etcetera

The biggest and strongest in the company, Seana!
Oh at least the biggest and strongest should offer their help to the smallest and weakest.


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## Fernando

The rule is simple:

Being F the female and M the male 
Being w(x) the weight that x should carry.
Being P(x) the power developed by the traveller x
Being S(x-y) the interest of having sex ofx towards y

You will have several paradigms:

A) Classical Paradigm:

w (F) = 0

B) Egualitarian Paradigm:

P(M)/w(M) = P(M)/w(F). As an example, assuming P(M) = 2P(f)

w(M) = 2w(F)

Generalizing 

w(M) = w(F)

C) Feminist Paradigm:

w (F) = 0

Furthermore, M must admit he should carry the suitcase, considering his grandfathers ruled for millenia and her grandmothers beared the oppressive patriarcalism.

D) Male chauvinism Paradigm

w(M) = 0 + 1000000000 * S(M-F)

KIDDING, MA NON TANTO.


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## Seana

But it could be found difficulty to identify who is strongest in company. Very often small and slim guys have huge strength and energy. 
I think most woman even if she look strongly is more weak then average man. Sorry, perhaps I am little bit old fashioned but I still stick to general principles.
In my opinion woman with the man company shouldn't carry any burden. It look inelegantly and woefully. Same time ago my husband was very ill being after serious operation and  heavy therapy. So, it  was the only  one justified situation when I have lifted heavy weights. But I saw he felt really uncomforable then. It is a sort dishonour to the man.


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## Etcetera

_Repeto_, I am strong enough to carry my books and suitcases myself. So, if a man I am walking with doesn't look like helping me with them, it won't bother me in the slightest. But if the man takes my books/suitcases, it only speaks in his favour!


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## emma42

Seana, I do agree. It is axiomatic that most women are physically weaker than most men, but still....

Etcetera, that is more or less how I feel.  But I would only let the man take the burden if I trusted him to  be my friend.


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## Fernando

In honour of Seana:

A) Classical Paradigm:

The men always carry the suitcases, period.

B) Egualitarian Paradigm:

They carry the suitcases according their relative strength. The more powerful carries more weigth (usually, the man).

Generalizing:

Everyone takes the same weight (or everyone his suitcase)

C) Feminist Paradigm:

The men always carry the suitcases, period.

Furthermore, the man must admit he should carry the suitcase, considering his grandfathers ruled for millenia and her grandmothers beared the oppressive patriarcalism.

D) Male chauvinist Paradigm

The women always carry the suitcases, period...except if the man has some interest in the woman.

Moderator's note - This should be deleted as being off-topic - except that, in the immortal words of Father Panjandrum, it's just too funny!


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## Seana

To be honest, when I started this thread I didn't realize that  male/female relation problem will be focused mainly on lifting heavy objects.


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## Etcetera

emma42 said:
			
		

> Etcetera, that is more or less how I feel. But I would only let the man take the burden if I trusted him to be my friend.


Of course, Emma, no girl/woman would let take her things a man she doesn't know! What if the courteuos stranger is just an ordinary thief? 



> Oh Etcetera, I don't belive that being from such imperial city you haven't any remains of the real lady.
> Ladies shouldn't carry any things.


It will be an off-topic here, but I can't but thank you for such words about my beloved city.
As for carrying heavy things... Well, telling a man that he *should* help you with them is much less lady-like than carrying them yourself! That's how I see it.


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## Seana

Your sentence "telling a man that he *should* help you with them is much less lady-like than carrying them yourself!" it is a nonsense. It should be obvious that man should do it without waiting until the woman asks him for it. Of course those rules should be instilled for the boys and made impulsively. 
It is as regulations of the movement road, you aren't puzzling whether somebody is going behind you simply signalling a turn by indicator.
PS It is certain very far, far from main topic but I must say that I know your city. I was there and I have been totally under the impression of its power and looks


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## Etcetera

Seana said:
			
		

> It should be obvious that man should do it without waiting until the woman asks him for it. Of course those rules should be instilled for the boys and made impulsively.


It is so, indeed, I don't argue. But if a man don't see the obviousness of helping the woman he is walking with, then... 
Besides, there are still several things I'd never allow a man to carry for me. My child, had I had them, for instance. Yes, there are certain things I prefer to do only myself.


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## Seana

Hi, 

Let's give up this carrying/transport topic.  


Do you notice some signs of sexist, distincion or discrimination male/female in work or school and other filds of activity.
What about salaries, seeking employment.
Are the women treated well - with kindness or mybe with contempt.
E.g. Aren't the "car driver woman" taken with a pinch of salt . 
May you describe some situation in your country.


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## Etcetera

I haven't noticed any signs of female discrimination in the University, honestly. 
Moreover, it is male discrimination that I see at our Faculty of Philology. A vast majority of chairs is occupied by women, and our dean's also a woman! 
But I was kidding when I called it 'male discrimination' - in fact, for some reasons, in Russia philology is the field where women reign. I don't know why, but it is so.


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## Seana

Seana said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 
> Do you notice some signs of sexist, distincion or discrimination male/female in work or school and other filds of activity.


 
In my opinion sooner or later it would be definitely contrary situation. It is just why I have written male/female... distincion or discrimination.


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## Etcetera

But male discrimination is by no means better than female discrimination!


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