# Romanian's manner of integration in other societies



## alinapopi

I would like to know how Romanian people integrated in other countries and how they are seen there (emigration, but not only).

Thanks,
Alina


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## alexacohen

I don't understand your question. 

Some immigrants into country X  tend to integrate and assimilate into the culture of their host country. Others choose to keep their own culture and tend to create small communities with other immigrants.

A. who is a Romanian born and bred, speaks perfect Spanish, lives with her Spanish boyfriend, studies at the University and has a job. She was offered a job in Romania but refused to go back. She prefers to live here.

B. is sending almost all the money she earns back to Romania, where she plans to return and build a house of her own. She doesn't mix up with Spaniards, just with Romanians. Her Spanish is awful and she does not want to learn.

A. has been living here for two years. B. has been living here for seven years.

Both are real people. But A. is seen as a Spaniard of different origin, and B. will always be considered a foreigner.


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## alinapopi

Eso (pero no sólo) es lo que quería que comentase la gente. A lo mejor lo he expresado mal en inglés. Yo vivo en España desde hace casi 8 años (soy la A de tu exposición  ), y en Europa sé más o menos cuál es nuestra imagen, pero me gustaría averiguar, también, puntos de vista de gente de otros rincones del mundo.

Gracias, Alexa, por tu aportación.

Saludos desde Valladolid.


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## Chaska Ñawi

This is a post by Martina.M, which was attached to the original thread.  (If I'd simply transferred it back, it would have appeared at the head of the list, hence the second-hand posting - sorry, Martina.M!)



> Hi Alina!
> 
> I had never heard an opinion about Romanian people before I arrived to Italy.
> Here it is a tought topic. People automatically link Romanian people to Roms or gypsies, and there is a big trouble with them now. I do not know the facts, but there is a general feeling that they do not want to adapt to social rules (taking kids to school, living in normal houses, "being good citizens"). There have been some violence episodes here and generally, people feel somehow threatened. Plus, here in Venice, there is an organized group of romanian people who ask for money - like a real job, actually -; I believe they are controlled by some kind of inmigration mafia, not that they really choose to live that way.
> 
> On the other hand, my parents-in-law are very good friends with a Romanian family who are wonderful. They both have university studies but have to do underpaied jobs because they can't find anything else, and that is really unfair.
> 
> My opinion is that it is not a matter of racism - as I've read in some papers - but a problem with dealing with an ethnic group that is hard to manage for civil authorities, and the mistake of confusing them with a whole country.
> 
> Finally, I have a couple of friends that have moved to Romania to set up a branch of their business and form the romanian workers. They are happy because people work hard and well, but they say that the hard times they had under comunism have left some traces that will take time to recover. Like getting people in the team to trust each other. Little by little, my friends say, the country will deliver its real potential.
> 
> As I said, I have not a direct experience myself. This is just a general outlook on the opinion I have seen in Italy. I really hope you do not find it too hard, though here people tend to see everything black and white and generalise, what is always dangerous.
> 
> Best,
> Martina


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## cuchuflete

I am not aware of much immigration from Romania to the U.S., but as a generality 
I think that all of Alexa's fine, direct post would apply here as well.  Immigrants from any country either choose to, or at times are pressured to, live in insular enclaves, or they try to integrate themselves into the broader society.  

I know of no special preconceptions or prejudices about people from Romania.


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## Nanon

To Alinapopi: is there a specific Romanian way of integrating?...

In the company where I work (in France), we had a temp who was Romanian. She didn't want to say where she was from because she feared people would had a bad image about Romania and she would be taken for a Gipsy. She wanted everybody to believe her accent was Italian.

Too bad, in my opinion. But she must have been discriminated elsewhere to behave like that.


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## robbie_SWE

Hi! 

In Sweden the Romanian population isn't that big in comparison to other ethnic groups (e.g. Arabic, Former Yugoslavian, Finnish etc.). According to demographic analysis from SCB (the Central Bureau of Statistics), the Romanian community amounts to appr. 6 000 citizens. Since I belong to this group I might be able to provide some insight in this matter from a Scandinavian point of view. 

I came to Sweden when I was young (only four years old) and my mother decided that the best for my sister and I would be to adopt the "new" country's culture and social rules (so I kind of belong to category A in Alexacohen's post). This meant among other things that we were to speak Swedish at home and in public. 

We would watch Swedish television (we refused to buy an antenna to receive Romanian channels) and read Swedish literature. Last but not least, we were to interact with native Swedes so that we would be socially integrated. This approach is quite uncommon though. 

During my life I've met many Romanian families who seemed to frown upon the way our mother decided to raise us. 

Unlike us, they continued to speak Romanian at home and in public, they watched only Romanian TV and they created small Romanian communities who interacted only with each other cutting themselves off from the rest of the Swedish society. Most of them expressed resentment against the Swedish society they were living in, which they believed to be racist and unwelcoming. 

But in comparison to other ethic groups in Sweden, Romanians are more "integrated" in the Swedish society than many other ethnic groups. 

I never felt ashamed to say that I'm Romanian even if I believe it to be irrelevant since I'm a Swedish citizen. But keeping the unawareness that many people posses about other nationalities in mind, it doesn't surprise me that incidents like the one Nanon wrote about occur. 

 robbie


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## Meeracat

In recent times Scotland has experienced an influx of immigrant populations from Eastern Europe (especially to Edinburgh from where I write). The first group, which had an enormous cultural impact, was from Poland. The Polish people quickly began to find their feet in this culture and began to fulfill an important function in the various trades (plumbing, Joinery etc). Polish shops and cafes suddenly sprung up all over the city. The result has been to add a new vibrancy to the city. More recently there has been an influx of Romanian people (though not in such large numbers). Unfortunately this experience has been much less positive. Our experience of Romanian immigrants has been one of begging on the streets. Including, I am sad to say, the sight of older women kneeling on the pavement with outstretched hands. There is some evidence that a lot of begging is actually organised (the numerous hand written signs used for begging are in the same hand and carry exactly the same message. I have had contact with Romania in the past and I know this is not a true representation of the rich Romanian culture (including the much misunderstood and maligned Romany culture). However, in anwser to the first post: so far the impression created by Romanian immigration is quite negative.


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## alinapopi

Thank you to all of you for your answers. I knew this negative connotation of the Romanian inmigration in different countries. It'a a pitty, because, as Meeracat says, this is not the true representation of Romanian people. But it's very difficult to change easily a bad image. The topics are always very strong.
Thanks again.


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## Outsider

If I'm not mistaken, Italy has received more Romanian immigrants than any other country in western Europe. If so, it's not surprising that they also experience the most problems.


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## alinapopi

I agree that there are big problems in Italy nowadays, but I am also sure that there's a lot of Romanian - the great majority, in fact - who work honestly and live integrated in the Italian culture. Our problem is that that part of Romanian people (gypsies or not) who never wanted to integrate in the Romanian society and respect its rules, is the same who doesn't want to integrate even after chosing emigration. The problem is very complexe, but it should't be so easy to judge people. In Spain it's the same thing: why during all my staying here I never had problems with Spanish people? The mass-media has a big influence, as in eveything, actually. We can see on TV only Romanian who ask monney in the streets, other who live in forests, etc. But we never see how a normal family work, how their children go to school an are perfectly integrated there, how they pay their duties and how they live in peace with their Spanish (or other nationalities) neighbours. It is very easy to use topics and judge a whole country or nationality for what a hundred persons make. Not because an English man raped and killed a teenager in the south of Spain a few years ago, all the English people are seen as criminals here. And there's a lot of English living in Spain. But the question is: when an Arabian come to Spain in his yacht, we call him Arabian; when he arrives here in a poor boat, risking his life, we call him Moorish. You know what I mean. The same with European: I think Romanian will always be inmigrants, and not European citizens for many Italian, Spaniards, etc. Although we are in the UE now.
I just want to live in peace with my neighbours, whoever they are...
Alina


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## Outsider

alinapopi said:


> I agree that there are big problems in Italy nowadays, but I am also sure that there's a lot of Romanian - the great majority, in fact - who work honestly and live integrated in the Italian culture.


I don't doubt that. Human beings have an unfortunate tendency to blame the funny-looking/speaking/acting people when anything goes wrong, but most of the time it's the perfectly average-looking local folks who cause trouble.

Romania had a terrible time under Ceausescu, who among other idiocies banned birth control. Now that Romania's economic situation is fragile, of course many Romanians are forced to migrate in order to survive. And not every immigrant's life will be a success story.


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## robbie_SWE

alinapopi said:


> I agree that there are big problems in Italy nowadays, but I am also sure that there's a lot of Romanian - the great majority, in fact - who work honestly and live integrated in the Italian culture. Our problem is that that part of Romanian people (gypsies or not) who never wanted to integrate in the Romanian society and respect its rules, is the same who doesn't want to integrate even after chosing emigration. The problem is very complexe, but it should't be so easy to judge people. In Spain it's the same thing: why during all my staying here I never had problems with Spanish people? The mass-media has a big influence, as in eveything, actually. We can see on TV only Romanian who ask monney in the streets, other who live in forests, etc. But we never see how a normal family work, how their children go to school an are perfectly integrated there, how they pay their duties and how they live in peace with their Spanish (or other nationalities) neighbours. It is very easy to use topics and judge a whole country or nationality for what a hundred persons make. Not because an English man raped and killed a teenager in the south of Spain a few years ago, all the English people are seen as criminals here. And there's a lot of English living in Spain. But the question is: when an Arabian come to Spain in his yacht, we call him Arabian; when he arrives here in a poor boat, risking his life, we call him Moorish. You know what I mean. The same with European: I think Romanian will always be inmigrants, and not European citizens for many Italian, Spaniards, etc. Although we are in the UE now.
> I just want to live in peace with my neighbours, whoever they are...
> Alina


 
Very interesting point Alinapopi! When will Romanians ever be seen as integrated European citizens? I've asked myself the same question many times, but unfortunately I don't know if we will live to see that day.

 robbie


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## alinapopi

Hope is the last we loose, Robbie 

Have a good weekend.

Alina


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## Thomas1

Here in Poland Romanians are perceived rather negatively. Many people associate Romanians with gypsies, organised groups of people asking for money in the streets or means of public transport, lower parts of society, etc. I don’t believe this is a true image of you, many people simply don’t really know the whole truth, your mentality and generally what kind of people you are, and the bits they are aware of, because of what they see, simply suffice them to delineate an image of all Romanians, which is rather narrow-minded, but such is unfortunately the reality. I haven’t had much contact with Romanians other than that I described, to tell the truth, but thanks to these forums I met some and they are fantastic people. I also find that your country and culture is worth delving into.


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## robbie_SWE

Hi again!

I seem to recall a Swedish TV-program that had Romania as its main theme a couple of months ago. The program was about the different perceptions of Romanians and how they evolved. Unsurprisingly stereotypical notions were most common. 

Ceausescu's cruel administration, people standing in line for food, gigantic parades, beggars and Dracula were all typical connotations an average Swede had about Romania and its people. 

An interesting feature in this program was why Western European countries have this quite "malevolent" impression of Romanian people. A scholar presented the theory that Bran Stoker's "Dracula" altered the perceptions of Romania and Eastern European cultures when it was first published 100 years ago. 

Before the book came out, Eastern Europe was a dark and unexplored place for most westerners. So Dracula of Romanian descent came to represent the dangerous "new people who walked among the occidentals trying to be like them" (translated quote from the interview). According to the scholar Romanians were the first Eastern European people to be ostracised by Western cultures due to the novel "Dracula". 

What do you guys think about this theory? I believe that it seems to be connected to the deeply rooted tradition of creating fables about the unknown, thus becoming a crucial part of all cultures (e.g. all the stories about wolves, werewolves, vampires, spectres etc.). 

 robbie


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## sokol

Here in Austria Romanian migration is quite small: the biggest immigrant groups two decades ago were (in this order) 'Yougoslavs' and Turks and now ('Yougoslavs' becoming devided into several nations, therefore the group being much smaller) (again in order of importance) Turks, Germans, then probably even Poles before several 'Ex-Yougoslav' nations (Croats or Bosnians being the biggest groups). Romanians only are a minority here.

Also, Gypsy immigrants here aren't associated with Romanians but with Slovaks because there are a few organised beggar clans operating in Austria. But let me say here clearly that in any case it is not 'the Gypsies' (or 'the Romanians' or whatever) who run organised crime - it is _'the criminals'_ who do this, with no regard to nation. It's just unlucky when, like in Italy, it happens that quite some criminal gangs from Romania chose to operate in Italy for some reason, which in return lead to identifying these criminal gangs with the Romanian migrant community in general.

Romanians therefore generally aren't seen as 'problematic' immigrants by public opinion here - even though we do have some Romanians too, also some gypsy groups (first and foremost Kalderash, but also others); other ethnic groups are on focus here. But basically the two types as already described by Alexa exist here too.


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## Pedro y La Torre

In Ireland, there is quite a sizeable Romanian community and they seem to be just as well integrated as any other nationality. I suppose many people here would also associate Romanians with Gypsies as it seems that's where a lot of them come from, but I personally never saw why anyone would be ashamed of being of Gypsy origin. There seems to be a common stereotype, both here and apparently throughout Europe, that Gypsies are a strain on society, with most of them begging to survive etc. I disagree though, it's only a (struggling) minority who do it and I find it rather sad that many deny or hide their heritage when there's obviously absolutely nothing wrong with being either Romanian or of Gypsy origin.


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## Montesacro

sokol said:


> It's just unlucky when, like in Italy, it happens that quite some criminal gangs from Romania chose to operate in Italy for some reason, which in return lead to identifying these criminal gangs with the Romanian migrant community in general.


 
I don't think that the generalised negative opinion on Romanian immagration here in Italy is due to to the presence of criminal gangs (they actually operate of course, especially in the field of prostitution exploitation). 
The malevolent (irrational and unfair) feelings towards Romanians as a whole are mainly caused by crimes committed by individuals.


Needless to say most Romanians behave impeccably and give an important contribution to our economy: a great deal of men are employed as construction workers while women often take care of our elderly people (my grandmother as well).




alexacohen said:


> Some immigrants into country X tend to integrate and assimilate into the culture of their host country. Others choose to keep their own culture and tend to create small communities with other immigrants.
> 
> A. who is a Romanian born and bred, speaks perfect Spanish, lives with her Spanish boyfriend, studies at the University and has a job. She was offered a job in Romania but refused to go back. She prefers to live here.
> 
> B. is sending almost all the money she earns back to Romania, where she plans to return and build a house of her own. She doesn't mix up with Spaniards, just with Romanians. Her Spanish is awful and she does not want to learn.
> 
> A. has been living here for two years. B. has been living here for seven years.
> 
> Both are real people. But A. is seen as a Spaniard of different origin, and B. will always be considered a foreigner.


 
Really? Is she satisfied?
If I ever decided to leave Rome to live somewhere else in Italy or abroad, I would be shocked and horrified if I weren't instantly recognised as a Roman.

People who have migrated do not necessarily have to embrace all of the culture of the country they live in (especially if they plan to get back home sooner or later, and I guess this is indeed the case for the vast majority of eastern Europeans migrating to western Europe ).
What I have just written above accounts for the presence of ethnic shops selling only Romanian stuff or for the organisation of gatherings where Romanians can speak their language, dance their traditional dances, sing their traditional songs, eat their traditional dishes, etc..
Fine ways to remind yourself who you are when living far from home. 

Unfortunately many Italians find such gatherings annoying and sometimes even a threat to the normal state of things: fear of the unknown, it's just human nature...


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## jinti

Here in New York City, there are Romanians, as there are people from just about every country on earth. But there aren't too many.

My borough (Queens) has about 14,000 Romanians (that is, people born in Romania -- I'm not counting those of Romanian descent here) of the 22,000 or so in the city, according to our Dept. of City Planning. That's really not enough to be very noticeable outside of a few neighborhoods, like Ridgewood, where they're clustered in greater concentrations. I think there's a "tipping point" at which any immigrant group becomes large enough to be readily visible, and that's the point at which the rest of the people really start having opinions about them. I don't think we're there yet in New York with Romanians, and certainly not in my neighborhood (the city says we've only got 183 Romanians in my neighborhood, out of a total of over 15,000 foreign-born).

From a personal standpoint, I used to work in a medical office where one of the doctors was Romanian. Then he hired a physician's assistant -- a Romanian. Then that attracted some Romanian patients... so he started looking for a receptionist who could speak Romanian. All this was not greeted happily by the original staff, as they started to fear losing their jobs due to the increasing "Romanian-ization" of the office. I imagine this is a microcosm of what long-term residents of places with a new influx of Romanians (or any other group) might feel.


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## Outsider

robbie_SWE said:


> An interesting feature in this program was why Western European countries have this quite "malevolent" impression of Romanian people.


We do? I've never noticed such a thing in Portugal. For us, Romanians are "that people far away on the other side of Europe who sound a bit like us when they speak". 



jinti said:


> From a personal standpoint, I used to work in a medical office where one of the doctors was Romanian. Then he hired a physician's assistant -- a Romanian. Then that attracted some Romanian patients... so he started looking for a receptionist who could speak Romanian. All this was not greeted happily by the original staff, as they started to fear losing their jobs due to the increasing "Romanian-ization" of the office. I imagine this is a microcosm of what long-term residents of places with a new influx of Romanians (or any other group) might feel.


Immigrants often feel that, if they don't support each other, no one will. They're not always mistaken about that.


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## alinapopi

Hi and thanks to everyone who posted (or not) here,

I' m happy to hear that Romanians don't have the same bad image in all the countries. I didn't know anything in this sens about Poland: I have a Polish brother in law and he never talked me about this. In Austria we have some good friends and the same... But I repeat: we should try to know first the person, before judging... I always tried to understand the position of the person who I spoke to, and my experience allow me to say that people we are not so negative when we know the reality. Which is not only the emigration reality.


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## mirx

alinapopi said:


> Hi and thanks to everyone who posted (or not) here,
> 
> I' m happy to hear that Romanians don't have the same bad image in all the countries. I didn't know anything in this sens about Poland: I have a Polish brother in law and he never talked me about this. In Austria we have some good friends and the same... But I repeat: we should try to know first the person, before judging... I always tried to understand the position of the person who I spoke to, and my experience allow me to say that people we are not so negative when we know the reality. Which is not only the emigration reality.


 

Alinapopi.

The "thing" is not about or with Romanians, but about any immigrant community who is big enough and different enough (culturally, religiously, gastronomically, physically, etc) to be considered a "threat" by the host nation.

The Irish, the Jews, the same Italians, the Mexicans, Hungarians, Chinese and many others, were or are, the Romanians on their respective times and host nations.

Many people mentioned Gypsy next to the word Romanian, in México gyspsies are associated with other country and not with Romania. In any case I did once met a Romanian who was also a gypsy, he was begging on the street of Paris and asked me for money perhaps in 7 different langauges and expression all the emotions a human being is capable to express I was amazed from the beginning by his versatility and obviously by the training he underwent to have such domain on the acting skills.


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## alinapopi

I am not Gypsy, but I worked with and for Gypsies in Romania (without a salary). I just want people know that in Romania maybe a 5-6% are Gypsies. But this is not the question, although we think or say the same...


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## jinti

Outsider said:


> Immigrants often feel that, if they don't support each other, no one will. They're not always mistaken about that.


 Quite true.

Of course, I think what I was describing was also simply business in action -- one responds to the needs of one's clientele, which brings in more of that clientele, whose growing needs one then responds to, etc.  Medical offices are just another kind of business, at least in the US.


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## alexacohen

Montesacro said:


> If I ever decided to leave Rome to live somewhere else in Italy or abroad, I would be shocked and horrified if I weren't instantly recognised as a Roman.


That is, however, your personal opinion. Other choices are as worthy of respect as yours.


> People who have migrated do not necessarily have to embrace all of the culture of the country they live in (especially if they plan to get back home sooner or later, and I guess this is indeed the case for the vast majority of eastern Europeans migrating to western Europe ).


They don't have to. They may choose to do so.


> What I have just written above accounts for the presence of ethnic shops selling only Romanian stuff or for the organisation of gatherings where Romanians can speak their language, dance their traditional dances, sing their traditional songs, eat their traditional dishes, etc..
> Fine ways to remind yourself who you are when living far from home.


Again, this is just a matter of choice.


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