# EN: I don't like you/your + V-ing



## mari06

Bonsoir, peut-on dire " I don't like you going to the park alone" ou est-ce maladroit / grammaticalement incorrect ? Merci !


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## C. E. Whitehead

C'est bon; c'est parfait en fin; on peut dire aussi, 'I don't like your going to the park alone' mais la grammaire vien du Latin.  Ainsi votre phrase est mieux!

--cew


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## afbyorb

> I don't like you going to the park alone


I don't like _*your*_ going to the park alone


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## C. E. Whitehead

One use is more formal than the other
Gerund, possessive: ... appreciate <you, your> leaving a message ... - English Only
[...]
(Here is a detailed article that investigated what triggers the use of the possessive pronoun with a verbal noun in English: http://icame.uib.no/ij30/ij30-page37-54.pdf)

Obviously using 'you' with the -ing form instead of 'your' treats the -ing form as a participle.

I note that a lot of rules regarding English were developed because scholars had to study Latin and learn Latin grammar and tried to apply it to English (this includes the rule that you can't say: 'Who/Whom am I speaking to?'; that instead you must say, 'To whom am I speaking?').

--CEW


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## jann

afbyorb said:


> I don't like you going to the park alone
> I don't like _*your*_ going to the park alone


I'm sorry to disagree, but I feel the same as C.E.W.  Both versions are correct to my ear.


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## C. E. Whitehead

I've only skimmed the article at:
http://icame.uib.no/ij30/ij30-page37-54.pdf

However I think what the author comes up with is:

if the gerund-verb includes a direct object
(such as is the case with "driving the car" in the sentence,
"I don't like you/your driving the car so fast")
then the gerund is seen as more like a verb or participle
and so people tend to say 'you' (or 'him' or 'her'),
"I don't like you driving the car so fast."
On the other hand, without a participle, especially in writing/formal speech,
'your' is o.k. (or 'his' or 'her'; note that with 'her' -- since the possessive form is no different than the object form of the pronoun -- you don't have to worry about which form is best!!!)

I've heard however that this gerund is to some degree going the way of 'thou' (the old singular form of 'you'); if that's so, you'll see sentences like, 'I don't your going to the park', 'I can't see your working so hard at that', etc.) even less, regardless of the verb! On the other hand, the subjunctive in English ('If only it were true') is also supposed to be going the way of thou but I love the subjunctive.

It depends on the speaker.

In speech and informal writing you are safe either way.

In very formal writing you might want to use the possessive pronoun with the gerund when the verb/gerund does not have a direct object with it--but it depends on your reader and what they expect.

(It's a little like the literary past tense in French, or like using 'l'on' instead of 'on'

"Je ne pense pas qu'on doit faire cela"
"Je ne pense pas que l'on doit faire cela")

Or like the 'ne' with the subjunctive in French
[see http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=486966 ]

However it really sounds stilted to some people's ear to say in casual conversation:
"I don't like your driving the car so fast"
but 
"I don't like your going to the park" might be o.k.)

Best,

cew


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## geostan

jann said:


> I'm sorry to disagree, but I feel the same as C.E.W.  Both versions are correct to my ear.



Not to mine. I would only use _your_.


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## francais_espanol

Why?


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## geostan

It has already been explained.  _Going_ is a gerund (noun value). It needs to be modified by an adjective, in this case _your_.


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## C. E. Whitehead

Actually it is usually not modified by an adjective in speech!

That's why I posted the link to the article.

It's a bit like the subjunctive (many people say "If only it was so!" even though "If only it were so" is technically correct).

And most people find it a bit stilted to treat an -ing word as a gerund in ordinary speech when it has a direct object; the example I gave was:
"I don't like him/his driving so fast" or "I don't like you/your driving so fast"

In very formal writing you might get away with it.

That's my opinion (I used to try to always use the gerund with a possessive pronoun in speech but I realized that was hypercorrecting and I decided to drop it when it sounded awkward;
but of course the article at:
http://icame.uib.no/ij30/ij30-page37-54.pdf
represents an example of descriptive grammar rather than prescriptive grammar; descriptive grammar is when you describe the way people talk; prescriptive grammar is when you tell them how to talk; the lexicons change faster than the grammars do as a result of what people actually do when they talk or write; but both change; Fowler allows things today that would not have been allowed when I was growing up; my feeling is that the use of the possessive pronoun with some 'gerund's is changing).

Here are some more examples (some examples are awful but they are interesting because in each case the pronoun goes with the gerund but is also an object [the object of a preceding preposition or the direct object of a verb)

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=478959

Best,

cew

(My personal opinion is that if you are speaking English in the U.S. you can generally get away with using or not using the possessive pronoun if your accent is good; indeed you can make a few grammatical mistakes in speech if your accent is good; we tend to accept a variety of spoken grammars but we like native-sounding accents here--even though the possessive pronoun with some sentences does sound awkward; on the other hand, if I were writing something formal, I would ask the person I was writing for what form they preferred and use that form; some people won't let you use contractions [such as 'isn't' or 'don't] in formal writing, and so on; people have their peculiar rules about writing.)


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## geostan

cew,

I guess I am more stubborn. I still use it.


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## C. E. Whitehead

Well in formal writing I'd use it if the person I was writing for insisted on it.

Best,

cew


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## jann

geostan said:


> It has already been explained.  _Going_ is a gerund (noun value). It needs to be modified by an adjective, in this case _your_.


Actually, I think you can apply a grammatical argument to justify (or explain) both forms. 

"I don't like your going" >> _going_ is a nominal form, modified by the possessive adjective _your_.  The base form is "I don't like going," where nominal _going_ is the direct object of _to like_.  Obviously, the addition of the adjective has enormous impact on the meaning of the sentence!

"I don't like you going" >> _going_ is a present participle, and as such it has adjectival function.* It modifies the pronoun _you_, which is the direct object of _to like_. The base form is "I don't like you."  Again, the addition of a word with adjectival function (this time, _going_) is critical! 



The prescriptivist v. descriptivist argument will never be resolved, and I have no interest whatsoever in coming down in favor of "right" or "wrong."  Personally, I think I use both form... and if I had to say which one I like better, I think I'd have to go with "...like you going."  That's just personal.  I wonder if there are regional patterns in such preferences.  

*For comparison, to prevent confusion, a better example of how the present participle can behave as an adjective:  "Let sleeping dogs lie."


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## Tim~!

> Personally, I think I use both form... and if I had to say which one I like better, I think I'd have to go with "...like you going."


I totally agree.

The rule of thumb that I tend to apply to myself is to use "your/his going" in situations where I wouldn't find "gonna" appropriate verbiage.

Otherwise, I'd use "you going", the structure that I meet in 99% of cases in my daily life.


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## Maître Capello

Isn't there a slight difference in meaning between the two constructions? Maybe it's just me but I thought _I don't like *you* driving my car so fast_ is putting more emphasis on _you_ (i.e., you possibly wouldn't mind somebody else driving your car so fast) whereas _I don't like *your* driving my car so fast_ emphasizes more _driving my car so fast_ (i.e., you probably don't mind the person driving your car, but not so fast)…


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## marget

Maître Capello said:


> Isn't there a slight difference in meaning between the two constructions? Maybe it's just me but I thought _I don't like *you* driving my car so fast_ is putting more emphasis on _you_ (i.e., you possibly wouldn't mind somebody else driving your car so fast) whereas _I don't like *your* driving my car so fast_ emphasizes more _driving my car so fast_ (i.e., you probably don't mind the person driving your car, but not so fast)…


 
I am not at all familiar with that distinction. Sorry! For me, "you" driving is informal/grammatically incorrect.  When I use it, I feel as though I've made a mistake.


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## jann

MC, if we want to make a distinction in meaning such as the one you describe, I think we're going to do it with tonic emphasis, not word choice.


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## geostan

Maître Capello said:


> Isn't there a slight difference in meaning between the two constructions? Maybe it's just me but I thought _I don't like *you* driving my car so fast_ is putting more emphasis on _you_ (i.e., you possibly wouldn't mind somebody else driving your car so fast) whereas _I don't like *your* driving my car so fast_ emphasizes more _driving my car so fast_ (i.e., you probably don't mind the person driving your car, but not so fast)…



I do sense a distinction, although it is just personal. 

In the case of the participle construction, I would suggest that it means that there are times when I don't like you, one of them being when you drive my car too fast.  In the other case, it's not you I don't like, just the way you drive the car. 

As I said, this is just peronal. The first example is not one I would say deliberately, although it might appear in my speech inadvertently.


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## C. E. Whitehead

I do not quite agree that "I do not like you driving the car so fast" means I do not like you, altough I tend to agree with Maitre Capello here that "I do not like you driving the car so fast" puts the emphasis on what I do not like is you driving the car, the way you do things, whereas "I do not like your driving the car so fast" puts the emphasis on "your driving" (that is the driving, the thing you do).  One sentence puts the emphasis on the activity (the one with "you driving") and ones sentence really just treats driving as a noun (the one with "your driving").  Maybe that is what you mean here.

It's interesting--because some languages constructions are built more on nouns, whereas in other languages the verb seems to be basic--but this is another discussion and I will have to start a new thread!

I will post a link when I do!

Best,

cew



geostan said:


> I do sense a distinction, although it is just personal.
> 
> In the case of the participle construction, I would suggest that it means that there are times when I don't like you, one of them being when you drive my car too fast. In the other case, it's not you I don't like, just the way you drive the car.
> 
> As I said, this is just peronal. The first example is not one I would say deliberately, although it might appear in my speech inadvertently.



Here is the link to the new thread; it does not deal with English, but it may be of interest:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=7352060#post7352060

Best,

cew


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## Chris' Spokesperson

I do not like + (the thing I do not like)

I do not like (you driving my car so fast).

Any personal emphasis that you feel is created is, I'm afraid, imagined. Whatever follows 'I do not like' is taken as an entire concept within the one clause, there is no aspect of disliking one part of the clause more than the other, always - one only needs to extend the logic out a little to see this.

I do not like (men who drive too fast)
I do not like (you on Tuesday mornings when you haven't had enough sleep)

It seems to me that when you say 'I do not like your driving too fast' you are implying this sentence 'I do not like your (habit of/manner of) driving too fast' and in 'I do not like you driving too fast' you are implying 'I do not like you (to be) driving too fast.' You are definitely NOT saying 'I do not like you (when you are) driving too fast.'

So if anything the only distinction this throws up is that saying 'I do not like your driving too fast' implies that this is a recurring fault (as you see it) whereas 'I do not like you driving too fast' may not be. You couldn't possibly get any more subtle and if any foreign person learning English asked me, saving them being a linguist or a member of WR  , I would say - no difference at all, carry on at will!


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## GerardM

Hi everyone,

I find this discussion very interesting!! Thanks!
Sorry to arrive so late: I quickly read all of the posts and didn't find what I'm going to say.


As a French guy, I don't have any suggestion -of course- but some remarks and questions.
(I think they're well related to the subject so I don't open another topic)

- of course you not only speak English but write it - however, wouldn't it be helpful to _transform the sentence a bit_ to "She doesn't like me (my) going to the park alone"?
Effectively you, as native English-speakers, base your language on what you heard so many times in your childhood, and if you/your sound very similar, me/my are very different to the ear.

- well, if you base your language on what you heard all childhood long, we -foreigners- have to do differently and base our English on *a few rules*, when possible.
Here's my remark: I have a small rule about this in mind - when using a verb corresponding to one of the 5 senses (to hear, to see, etc.), I've to write "me", for example in
Did you hear *me* coming back in the night?
whereas Do you mind *my* opening the window?
--- do you confirm this "rule"?
--- I wrote "verb corresponding to the 5 senses" but I only quoted see and hear as I don't know till where to go: smell? taste? touch? feel? think?

Thanks for your comments.
Hope This Helps.


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## C. E. Whitehead

I started thinking: there is one case where using a possessive pronoun rather than a noun in the 'oblique' case can result in a sentence that can really mean something quite different:

"I sprayed bug spray everywhere I could imagine it being,"
versus
"I sprayed bug spray everywhere I could imagine its being."

(Or:
"I sprayed bug spray everywhere I could imagine the ant being,"
versus
"I sprayed bug spray everywhere I could imagine the ant's being.")

In the second case, "being" can be treated as a noun as well as a gerund (participle, whatever) making the second sentence ambiguous;
the French equivalent for "everywhere I could imagine its being"
would be "partout où je pouvais imaginer son être" and this literal translation would be a good translation for one reading of the second sentence!!!

Of course, this second sentence can also mean the same thing the first does
(French, “partout où je pouvais imaginer qu’il était)!

I don't like using this sentence to mean that though, because it's ambiguous!

(I came up with this sentence when I was spraying ants! I had to make the ants singular for the sentence to be a good example of an ambiguous sentence.)

Best,

cew


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## jamesk65

The possessive pronoun + gerund draws attention to the activity. I always have at the back of my mind 'the act of + gerund' or 'the fact of + gerund'.  If either of these fit the sentence I'll use the possessive pronoun and drop the 'act of /fact of'. I'd use 'you' if I meant you in particular or only you.


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