# Urdu: علم الملک



## iskander e azam

Hi Friends,

I would like to know the meaning of (and from that the pronunciation would be clear) of the noun علم الملک as found here:

اسے علم الملک میں درک کے ساتھ فلسفے سے بھی خاص شغف تھا۔

It is clearly Arabic in origin.

All help appreciated.

Best wishes,

Alex


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## Shounak

علم-- ilm (knowledge)
الملک -- al mulk (of the entire country)

درک -- not very sure. It might means *understand*
کے ساتھ -*-  ke sath with that*
فلسفے *-- *falsafe *philosophies
 سے *بھی *-- se bhi (also)
خاص -- khas (special)
شغف -- shaghaf (passion)


Use ilm-ul-mulk darak ke sath falsafe se bhi khas shaghaf tha.
*
With the knowledge of the country he also had a special passion towards philosophy.


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## iskander e azam

Shounak said:


> *
> Use ilm-ul-mulk darak ke sath falsafe se bhi khas shaghaf tha.
> *
> With the knowledge of the country he also had a special passion towards philosophy.



Shounak SaaHIb,

Thanks for your response.

Reading  ahead, I have discovered the phrase علم الفلک and in context it is clearly shown to mean 'astronomy' so I am now thinking the علم الملک can only be its opposite so 'geology'. 

Best wishes,

Alex


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## cherine

Why would الملك mean geology?  May I ask who is the person being talked about? Some kings were known and praised for being knowledgable in both science the politics, so this could be the case here.


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## iskander e azam

cherine said:


> Why would الملك mean geology?  May I ask who is the person being talked about? Some kings were known and praised for being knowledgable in both science the politics, so this could be the case here.



Cherine,

You are a native Arabic speaker, and the phrase in question is an import into Urdu from Arabic, so I am sure you are right. 

I was surmising that it was geology as one of the meanings of ملک in Urdu is 'territory'. 

I am happy to defer to your greater understanding if you are assuring me that it means 'politics'. 

Best wishes,

Alex


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## cherine

No, ملك doesn't mean politics, and I certainly wouldn't dare talk with confidence about Urdu usage. It's just that understanding ملك as geology looks far fetched to me. And ملك does infer territory in Arabic as well, because the word means property, ownership, so the ملك of a king is his land, but not in the sense of geology.

And you forgot to answer my question about the king in question.


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## iskander e azam

cherine said:


> And you forgot to answer my question about the king in question.



Silly me. 

It is actually a learned scholar,  احمد بن ابدﷲ بن محمد تنوفی, that is being talked about.


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## Jafri

It may be ilm-ul-malak, instead of ilm-ul-mulk.
Malak means 'angel' in Arabic.
And stars are sometimes referred as angels in Bible, probably also among Muslims.

If true then 'ilm-ul-malak' would mean "astronomy".


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## iskander e azam

Jafri said:


> It may be ilm-ul-malak, instead of ilm-ul-mulk.
> Malak means 'angel' in Arabic.
> And stars are sometimes referred as angels in Bible, probably also among Muslims.
> 
> If true then 'ilm-ul-malak' would mean "astronomy".


 
Jafri SaaHib,

A very interesting suggestion.

Thank you,

Alex


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## Abu Talha

Maybe the text is misprinted and it actually is علم الفلک ?


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## Jafri

Abu Talha said:


> Maybe the text is misprinted and it actually is علم الفلک ?


Very possible.
"ایک نقطہ نے ہمیں محرم سے مجرم کر دیا"


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## iskander e azam

Abu Talha said:


> Maybe the text is misprinted and it actually is علم الفلک ?



Abu Talha SaaHIb,

You may be right. As I previously mentioned علم الفلک occurs later in the paragraph so it is possible but علم الملک is an extant phrase in Arabic and google brings up many entries for it. Even if it should be as  you stated it still leaves the question what is علم الملک as found via google?

Best wishes,

Alex


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## Abu Talha

iskander e azam said:


> ut علم الملک is an extant phrase in Arabic and google brings up many entries for it. Even if it should be as  you stated it still leaves the question what is علم الملک as found via google?


I skimmed a few of the Arabic results from Google but it doesn't appear to be a set phrase, at least not as a branch of science. Here are some possibilities:

3alima l-maliku = the king knew
3alamu l-maliki = the king's standard (flag)
[duuna] 3ilmi l-maliki = [without] the king's knowing (as part of a larger sentence)

Malak and mulk could also be possible readings depending on context.


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## cherine

Yes, as far as I know, there's no science in Arabic called علم المُلك (nor المَلَك angels) and all Google results refer to either عَلَم، عَلِم or عَلِم and the king المَلِك, like Abu Talha said.
If the term is used in Urdu with عِلْم المُلك, the only meaning I can think of is how to rule or how to govern.



Jafri said:


> And stars are sometimes referred as angels in Bible, probably also among Muslims.
> If true then 'ilm-ul-malak' would mean "astronomy".


No, stars are not associated with angels in Islam. And astronomy is الفَلَك.



iskander e azam said:


> It is actually a learned scholar,  احمد بن ابدﷲ بن محمد تنوفی, that is being talked about.


I tried looking him up and found nothing. Are you sure ابدالله is not عبد الله? I looked with both spellings anyway and didn't find anything, but I only searched only and didn't search in reference books, but even for this I need more info: where he was from, when he died, what was his main field of specialty or what he was most known for.


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## eskandar

Abu Talha said:


> Maybe the text is misprinted and it actually is علم الفلک ?


This seems by far the most likely possibility.


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## iskander e azam

cherine said:


> I tried looking him up and found nothing. Are you sure ابدالله is not عبد الله? I looked with both spellings anyway and didn't find anything, but I only searched only and didn't search in reference books, but even for this I need more info: where he was from, when he died, what was his main field of specialty or what he was most known for.



He was also known as ابو العلا ء معّری.  He was from the Syrian town of معّرا. Google gives exactly four hits. 

In the book I am reading they give some of his quotations. One of which really took my fancy:

میں اپنے باپ کا گناہ ہوں لیکن میں نے گناہ نہیں کیا۔

"I am my father's sin but I have not sinned."

He is either referring to the conjugal act as sinful or existence itself.

It appeals to the dark side of my nature.

Alex


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## eskandar

Cherine is right, his name is just misspelled; either there are typos in your book, or perhaps you erred in re-typing them. It's al-Ma'arri.


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## iskander e azam

eskandar said:


> Cherine is right, his name is just misspelled; either there are typos in your book, or perhaps you erred in re-typing them. It's al-Ma'arri.



eskandar SaaHib,

Incredible link. Thank you for that.

Typos are the bane of my life. Urdu literature seems not to have heard of proofreading. I typed it here as I found it in the book I can catch the really obvious ones but unfamiliarity with a name would clearly trap me into repeating a typo.

Best wishes,

Alex


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