# já píšu or já píši?



## Whodunit

I'm surpised about what I recently saw in a declension chart for Czech verbs.

já píšu/píši --- já jsem psal/psala --- oni píšou/píší

já přeju/přeji --- já jsem přál/přála

First I thought it may be an idiosyncrasy of that website, but then I discovered the same disctinction in other dictionaries. Why have words like psál (to write) and přát (to wish) two allowed endings?

Thanks for enlightening me in this topic.


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm surprised about what I recently saw in a declension chart for Czech verbs.
> 
> já píšu/píši --- já jsem psal/psala --- oni píšou/píší
> 
> já přeju/přeji --- já jsem přál/přála
> 
> First I thought it may be an idiosyncrasy of that website, but then I discovered the same disctinction in other dictionaries. Why have words like psá*t* (to write) and přát (to wish) two allowed endings?


Some verbs (like psát) admit two endings in the 1st person sing. and the 3rd person pl., present tense. Já píši/oni píší are more lofty. I am sure that 50 years ago they would be the only permissible endings. But by now píšu/píšou have ceased to be considered incorrect. In formal speech, you should use the former pair. But in informal speech (and in writing), it would sound somewhat stilted if you did. 

Actually, there might be a subtle disctinction between the 1st person sing. and the 3rd person plural. (Or is it just me?  I am curious - hope to see other Czech speakers soon) While I usually avoid "já píšu" when speaking, I tend to say "oni píší"

Psal/psala is a totally different problem. It is the past tense the ending of which depends on the gender in all persons. More here.

Jana


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## Tchesko

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Actually, there might be a subtle disctinction between the 1st person sing. and the 3rd person plural. (Or is it just me?  I am curious - hope to see other Czech speakers soon) While I usually avoid "já píšu" when speaking, I tend to say "oni píší"


 
I have never really pondered over this so I might be wrong but at first sight I would say that (most of) the verbs whose 1st person singular ends with -i (píši, přeji, hraji, směji se, kryji, kupuji, etc.) can be used with -u instead, thus:
"(já = I) píšu (write), přeju (wish), hraju (play), se směju (laugh), kryju (cover), kupuju (buy)"...​As Jana already pointed out, in formal speach, the -i ending is preferable and for some verbs, the -u ending doesn't sound very nice (and especially doesn't look nice when written). Nevertheless, its use is widespread. While some of the above-mentioned verbs look rather awful with the -u ending, this is the way an average Czech speaks (and I'm afraid I belong to this category). On the other hand, with some verbs, the use of the -i ending doesn't sound natural - this aspect of the Czech language has been undergoing evolution which I guess is still not accomplished.

There is about the same degree of "confusion" in the 3rd person plural; I would say that the use of -ou instead of -í sounds most of the time even more colloquial than the use of -u instead of -i in the 1st person singular. However, this is not a problem for an average Czech (including me) who wouldn't hesitate to say:
"oni (they) píšou (write), přejou (wish), hrajou (play), se smějou (laugh), kryjou (cover), kupujou (buy)",​although he/she would think twice before writing such a thing.
That's how I feel about it...

Roman


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## ytre

já píšu/píši 
A) I guess first form is Moravian dialect which is now for several last years also considered correct. I am bit surprised that you have found that in formal written form. Formal rules become more relaxed aprox. 7 years ago to reflect changes in mostly used spoken/informal variants.

já jsem psal/psala
B) masculine/femine variant

píšou/píší
case A

já přeju/přeji
 case A

já jsem přál/přála
case B


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## Whodunit

Seems I should definitely stick to píšu and píšou after your explanation. You've been a great help, thank you. 

By the way, Jana, the chart for Czech verbs should in any case be added to the resources thread; here's the homepage.


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## ytre

Whodunit said:
			
		

> should definitely stick to píšu and píšou


 No no no! Hold on a sceond. Do your research ;-) The mening depends on where you add interpunction ",". There was significant amount of uncertanity: "guess". I gave you hint that if it happened that both are correct then it problably happened around 1997-2001 I am not sure if this is the case where reules have been relaxed. I know just few cases which are like s/z prepositions.

Although the link leads to Charles' University site it's not linguistic section. It there probably only as reference to what will you hear and sometimes read. It's because of the nature of academic society which drags people together from all places around the world therby mixing all Czech dialects.

--- added:
I did the research too. Here are my findings:

pravidla.cz (thats web address - can't post web links) it allows you to search in czech word variants that are recognized as correct. There are other tabs which explains in czech some grammar rules too.

Rules are certified by Ministery of education as acceptable study resource but I was not able to find any reference to year or ISBN of certified book on the internet site. So don't treat it as ultimate resource unless you do your own research and find the site to be correct and up to date. (Domain was registered in 2002 acording to nic.cz and I found on iJournal internet archive that someone from Czech Academy of Sciences Institute of Czech language said in 1Q 2005 that last rules were certified and printed in 1999 - it's the rozhlas.cz link if you feed google with "pravidla pravopisu site:cz")

Also vzdelavani.ihned.cz/1-10014430-13207400-d00000_detail-7c (this is also web address. It's electronic version of originaly printed newspapers. newspapers which are distributed in whole Czech Republic refering to the previous site so it could probably be trusted to some degree)

And yes it does allow "píšu" in meaning "I write"

--- just found some realy old one 
Acording to rules from 1957 printed in 1984 by SPN as publication 11-09-15/15 it was correct too. (no isbn)
Rules from 1993 does allow it too. (ISBN 80-901373-6-9)

So the previous hint was completely out but I did not have books nearby ;-) Anyway "píši" sounds alien to me as native speaker and if qestioned before i checked/discovered this. As moravian would use it only in written from when writing to non-moravian to ease reading. Expecting that "píšu" may sound alien in some small village. Knowing that it's 100% correct but I rarely hear it...

Mazbe an interresting point last. But "napíšu" sounds more alien(incorrect/inapropriate) then "napíši" to me.


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## Tchesko

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Seems I should definitely stick to píšu and píšou after your explanation. You've been a great help, thank you.
> 
> By the way, Jana, the chart for Czech verbs should in any case be added to the resources thread; here's the homepage.


 
Don't let me be misunderstood: I feel that with some verbs, the -u ending is "acceptable", while this is not the case with some other verbs.

- verb psát (to write): píšu and píšou are the usual forms when speaking; in writing, píši and píší are OK (even though somewhat stilted, as Jana already mentioned) but píšu and píšou are also possible, unless you want to sound solemn and/or overly correct.

- verb chtít (to want): the correct forms are "já chci" and "oni chtějí", in writing as well as in speaking; you can often hear "já chcu" and "oni chcou" (especially in Moravia  ) but I would _never ever _use these forms in writing (formal or not) and I wouldn't advise a foreigner to use them at all, although it is interesting to know these forms exist to recognize them!

Now, you certainly wonder which ending (-u or -i) is more common in general... Sorry, I can't tell! I'll try to do some research during the Christmas holidays.

Roman


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## MindStorm

Well, I thought about that as well. At school, we studied only traditional endings of verbs, but i had a friend who always said "u" at the end of verbs.. I'm not experienced in czech, and i thought it was something from a common speech. But for me, "u" endings sound more natural 'coz it is almost similar to russian in 1st person: я пиш*у*, стира*ю*


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## Whodunit

First of all, thank you very much. Seems I have brought up an intriguing thread, because not even native speakers agree with each other. 



			
				MindStorm said:
			
		

> Well, I thought about that as well. At school, we studied only traditional endings of verbs, but i had a friend who always said "u" at the end of verbs.. I'm not experienced in czech, and i thought it was something from a common speech. But for me, "u" endings sound more natural 'coz it is almost similar to russian in 1st person: я пиш*у*, стира*ю*


 
Well, is there a Russian ending sounding like -i? Can you imagine a word ending in -и or even -й in the first person singular (я)? I will post this in a new thread, if Jana sees a long conversation coming up by this question.


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## MindStorm

Maybe there are some, but i can't remember any =) My firs time in czech republic that was quite hard for me to say it right, not with "u"


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## ytre

Tchesko said:
			
		

> - verb psát (to write)
> 
> - verb chtít (to want)



But also:
- verb jít (to go) I go. = (Já) Jdu. And if you say "Jdi" it actually is same as "Jdi*!*" (2.osoba singulár) = "You go!" you as single person.

In general as it could be with verbs. If you are sure that it's not imperative and that it exists with -i then you will be probably almost always correct using -i. The imperative is probably the reason why it were not disambiguated...


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

Tchesko said:
			
		

> - verb chtít (to want): the correct forms are "já chci" and "oni chtějí", in writing as well as in speaking; you can often hear "já chcu" and "oni chcou" (especially in Moravia  )



In fact, I believe "chcu" is an _exclusively_ Moravian forms, although I'm not sure about "chcou"; I've never heard it from a Bohemian person (except when trying to sound like a hillbilly for comical effect), and the majority of Moravians say "oni chcú" like Slovaks do (as the ú -> ou shift didn't occur in most of Moravia) and Hanáks say "oni chcó" (the ú -> ou shift took place but was followed by a subsequent ou -> ó shift).

Things like this, I believe, are the _raison d'être _for the Czech concept of hard and soft consonants, which, unfortunately, isn't explained in grade school except as a tool for the memorization of how to write i/y: The u -> i change took place only after soft consonants, so píšu -> píši and píšú -> píší, děkuju -> děkuji, but not jdu -> *jdy (as *jdi could only develop from *jďu, and it probably would have, had such a word existed ).

Of course, the change didn't concern just verb endings - for instance, the mythical duchess Ľubuša became Libuše (and the genitive is even more conspicuous: Ľubušu -> Libuši) (note how the original "u" was preserved after b, which is a hard consonant). The "ľ" is the "soft l" sound found in Slovak or Russian which subsequently disappeared in Czech, merging with the normal l, which is why l is now an ambiguous consonant.


Or at least that's how I think it was. It's entirely possible that I could have gotten some details wrong. 


Anyway, the -i forms are clearly of a newer date than the -u forms (and unique to Czech, as can be plainly seen by comparison with any other Slavic language), so the current preference of -u in the vernacular, which is now also slowly creeping into official and literary language, is very interesting to me in that it represents virtually a rollback to the older forms - all the more interesting because it's manifesting only in verb endings and not the other instances where the u -> i shift took place. I'd love to find out more about this...


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## MindStorm

[offtopic]
They should have burned Jan Hus a bit earlier... =)
[end offtopic]


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## Tchesko

Hi Tekeli-li,

This is very interesting! I didn't know about the -u -> -i shift.


			
				Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:
			
		

> Or at least that's how I think it was. It's entirely possible that I could have gotten some details wrong.


Where did you get them?



			
				Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:
			
		

> In fact, I believe "chcu" is an _exclusively_ Moravian forms, although I'm not sure about "chcou"; I've never heard it from a Bohemian person (except when trying to sound like a hillbilly for comical effect), and the majority of Moravians say "oni chcú" like Slovaks do (as the ú -> ou shift didn't occur in most of Moravia) and Hanáks say "oni chcó" (the ú -> ou shift took place but was followed by a subsequent ou -> ó shift).


I don't think the majority of Moravians say "oni chcú". In South Moravia many people do but not in Central nor in North Moravia. Also, there are still fewer people speaking Hanák... In my opinion, "oni chcou" tends to spread over Moravia as a general colloquial form and to replace those region-specific dialect forms. However, I agree that "oni chcou" is not commonly used in Bohemia (at least, I can't remember hearing it there).


To conclude and sum up, I'd like to copy here an excerpt from the Czech grammar by Janda & Townsend, p.73 (available online, see Resource thread) :CCz replaces LCz 1sg -i with -u and 3pl -í with -ou: CCz sleduj*u *"I follow" (cf. LCz sleduji), CCz sleduj*ou *"they follow" (cf. LCz sledují).​​(CCz = Colloquial Czech, LCz = Literary Czech).​

According to this grammar, most verb classes don't allow the choice between -i and -u in Literary Czech...
However, their verb classification is such a complicated thing...

Roman


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

> Where did you get them?


Here, there, and everywhere. I study this sort of thing rather superficially, picking up what you might call pieces of trivia from various sources over time.

You're probably right about Moravia; I suppose what I wrote was generally true about a hundred years ago, and probably until fairly recently in the countryside, but the 20th century media have made quite a mess of things.



			
				MindStorm said:
			
		

> [offtopic]
> They should have burned Jan Hus a bit earlier... =)
> [end offtopic]


1) No,
2) What does that have to do with anything?


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