# Levantine Arabic/EA: m7ayyar محيَّر



## Andrew___

Hi guys,

I heard this word *m7ayyar* in a song by Marwan Khouri called "Ya Rab".

It seems to mean "lost".  The context is:
*M7ayyarli albi w m7ayyar*
 (You’re lost and you get my heart lost with you!)

My question is:  Can I use this word in daily life situations when I become lost?  For example if I'm driving in a car and say "I'm totally lost on the roads of Dubai!".

Thanks


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## borhane

Hi
    In your conext you better use 'dhayi3', because it's more appropriate. In the song I believe that it means 'to wonder' in the sense that you do not know what to do anymore.
    I hope this will help.


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## clevermizo

Andrew___ said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I heard this word *m7ayyar* in a song by Marwan Khouri called "Ya Rab".
> 
> It seems to mean "lost".  The context is:
> *M7ayyarli albi w m7ayyar*
> (You’re lost and you get my heart lost with you!)
> 
> My question is:  Can I use this word in daily life situations when I become lost?  For example if I'm driving in a car and say "I'm totally lost on the roads of Dubai!".
> 
> Thanks



الحيرة is less so "lost" in the sense of physically lost. It's a state of confusion and wonder, which I guess in the right context could be translated as "lost." I agree with Borhane that the better word for "lost" is just Daaye3 ضايع.

This song, I just searched, is actually in the Lebanese dialect (I had never heard it before), not Egyptian dialect. In this case, m7ayyar is the مفعول به and it just means "my heart is confused" or I guess if you want to be literal "has been made confused."


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## Andrew___

Many thanks Borhane and Clevermizo.

I also didn't realise that this exists in MSA too, so that is a pleasant surprise. 

Andrew


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## clevermizo

Andrew___ said:


> Many thanks Borhane and Clevermizo.
> 
> I also didn't realise that this exists in MSA too, so that is a pleasant surprise.
> 
> Andrew



I don't know if it "exists in MSA" but I don't see why not. The root ح ي ر is an Arabic root.

I don't know what the best translation for الحيرة is. I don't think you can just use "confusion" like "I'm confused about the answer to this math problem." I think it's some combination of confusion and wonder. Perhaps a native speaker could contribute with a better translation.


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## yasmeena

clevermizo said:


> I don't know if it "exists in MSA" but I don't see why not. The root ح ي ر is an Arabic root.


It does. مسألة احتار فيها العلماء \ مسألة محيّرة \ أنا في حيرة من أمري




> I don't know what the best translation for الحيرة is. I don't think you can just use "confusion" like "I'm confused about the answer to this math problem." I think it's some combination of confusion and wonder.


 confusion/uncertainty + wonder


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## elroy

It's not a مفعول به.  It's another "active verbal participle" (اسم الفاعل).

حيّر: to confuse, to baffle, to bewilder, to perplex, to puzzle
مُحَيِّر: confusing, baffling, bewildering, perplexing, puzzling

I think you meant that it's اسم المفعول, but that would be محتار.

I think you _could_ use this verb in the "math question" context (MSA: هذه المسألة تحيرني; PA: هاي المسألة محيرتني), but you are right that you can't always translate "confuse" that way.

In many contexts "confused" can be translated as مُرتبك.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> I think you meant that it's اسم المفعول, but that would be محتار.



I did, pardon wrong term. But then is it m7ayy*a*r (implying the heart) or m7ayy*e*r (implying the person doing so to the heart)? m7ayyar is also ism maf3uul but just of the verb 7ayyar rather than the verb i7taar. Also, I'm pretty sure mi7taar is an ism faa3il, it's just that since the meaning of this verb is passive, there's only really the one participle, which is the "active" participle of the passive verb. Originally the thread was asking about Egyptian Arabic in which I think pronunciation is actually m7ayy*a*r, but as it is in Lebanese, I'm guessing the pronunciation is m7ayy*e*r? I'd have to listen to the song fully which I don't have time to do at the moment.

I think I see what you mean about practical use however. You would use m7ayyer (and not *m7ayyar I presume), for the person yalli bit7ayyrak, but you would use mi7taar for the the person yalli 7taar, rather than m7ayy*a*r.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> I did, pardon wrong term. But then is it m7ayy*a*r (implying the heart) or m7ayy*e*r (implying the person doing so to the heart)?


 It's definitely active, and not passive, in this case - but it's "m7ayyar," which sounds Egyptian when used as an active participle.  In Palestinian Arabic (and Lebanese Arabic, I assume), it would be "m7ayyer."  It's common for Lebanese singers to sing in Egyptian, so maybe that's why it's pronounced "m7ayyar" in this case. 


> m7ayyar is also ism maf3uul but just of the verb 7ayyar rather than the verb i7taar.


 In this case it is اسم الفاعل, because this is Egyptian.  See below.


> Also, I'm pretty sure mi7taar is an ism faa3il, it's just that since the meaning of this verb is passive, there's only really the one participle, which is the "active" participle of the passive verb.


 Yes, that makes sense.  Technically "i7taar" is in the "middle voice."

I think the confusion resulted because of dialectal differences.

In Levantine Arabic, the participles of "7ayyar" are "m7ayyer" (active) and "m7ayyar" (passive).  But in Egyptian Arabic, the active participle is "m7ayyar" and I would guess the passive participle is "mit7ayyar."  So the same word ("m7ayyar") is active in Egyptian and passive in Levantine.  As the song is in Egyptian, it's active in this case.


> I think I see what you mean about practical use however. You would use m7ayyer (and not *m7ayyar I presume), for the person yalli bit7ayyrak, but you would use mi7taar for the the person yalli 7taar, rather than m7ayy*a*r.


 I would use "m7ayyer" for "confusing" and *either* "m7ayyar" or "mi7taar" for "confused."


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## Josh_

I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but the word is pronounced _m*i*hayyar_ in Egyptian, unless it comes after a word that ends in a vowel: _ana mHayyar_ but _ir-raagil miHayyar_.  In isolation I would also pronounce it _miHayyar_.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> As the song is in Egyptian, it's active in this case.



I understand all your points now. The place of confusion was the song itself. It's in Lebanese dialect although Andrew thought originally it was in Egyptian dialect. I listened to the beginning but I haven't listened to the whole thing yet to confirm whether or not it sounds like m7ayyer (which I would expect) or m7ayyar.

Edit: Ok, I'm listening to the song right now. The song is definitely in Lebanese dialect, and the word is pronounced m7ayy*a*r and is thus, I'm fairly certain, a passive participle (_my heart is confused_ rather than _you confuse my heart_). Although it's interesting on this point of grammar, as an Egyptian listening to the same song, without knowledge that this was a passive participle in Lebanese, would understand the lyric slightly differently.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Edit: Ok, I'm listening to the song right now. The song is definitely in Lebanese dialect, and the word is pronounced m7ayy*a*r and is thus, I'm fairly certain, a passive participle (_my heart is confused_ rather than _you confuse my heart_).


 That wouldn't make sense, because there's a _-li_. 

Is this another Lebanese peculiarity?


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> That wouldn't make sense, because there's a _-li_.
> 
> Is this another Lebanese peculiarity?



Yeah I'm not sure about it, but it's definitely m7ayyar. Maybe Yasmeena or another contributor could shed light on the meaning of the -li? I didn't translate it in my attempts because I assumed it might have been similar to that -lak "discourse" suffix or whatever you want to call it that we've discussed before.


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## elroy

No, it's definitely not that.

My guess, as I said before, is that the singer is singing in Egyptian (which is very common).  I'll try and listen to the song if I get the chance.


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## elroy

I just listened to the song.

My personal opinion is that it's a play on words.

*M7ayyarli albi *[You're a source of confusion to my heart] *wim7ayyar* [and you're confused yourself]

So the first "m7ayyar" is Egyptian and the second one is Lebanese.

The following part mixes dialects too:

W *ba3du *[Lebanese] albak Tufl *Sghayyar *[Egyptian]


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## Josh_

I haven't listened to the song (and it often takes a long time to download songs and such) but I can say that phrases with an additional _-li_, like _miHayyar-li_ (or _mHayyar-li_ as I assume it sounds in the song), are common in Egyptian (from what I can tell).  I don't know about other dialects.  I liken it to phrases that include "myslef" or "me" in English, which are often used in cutesy ways (for lack of a better descriptor), especially the latter.  For example:

_Hashuuf-li waHda tanya._
"I'm going to find myself another one" or more colloquially, "I'm going to find me another one."

_Hashtirii-li sandwich._
"I'm going to buy myself a sandwich," or more colloquially, "I'm going to buy me a sandwich."

_Haakhud-li nooma basiiTa._
I'm going to take myself a short nap.

Sometimes phrases cannot be translated with a "me" or "myself" because they do not sound natural in English.  _mihayyar-li_ seems to be one of those phrases.


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## elroy

Josh, _-li_ is used that way in Levantine Arabic as well, but the _-li_ in the song is not the same.

"M7ayyar-li albi" means "Confusing my heart."

Other examples:

"Kharrab-li see3ti" - He broke my watch.
"Ifta7li 'l-baab" - Open the door for me.
"7miltillo shantito" - I carried his bag for him.


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## Josh_

Yes, that's what I mean.  I don't think I explained myself well enough (alas, it's very late and I really should be getting to bed). I guess what I was getting at is that I don't see it particularly as a play on words, but just a normal structure.  It's a structure that can't always be translated literally into English.


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## elroy

The reason I said it was a play on words had nothing to do with _-li_.  It was because I think she uses one word ("m7ayyar") twice with a different meaning each time.  The first time it's active (the "Egyptian" meaning) and the second time it's passive (the "Levantine" meaning).

Anyway, my point still stands that the _-li_ in my examples (and in the song) is very different from the _-li_ in yours.  I'm sure there's a separate linguisitic term for each.


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## Josh_

elroy said:


> The reason I said it was a play on words had nothing to do with _-li_.  It was because I think she uses one word ("m7ayyar") twice with a different meaning each time.  The first time it's active (the "Egyptian" meaning) and the second time it's passive (the "Levantine" meaning).


Ooh, Ok.  I see what you meant.



> Anyway, my point still stands that the _-li_ in my examples (and in the song) is very different from the _-li_ in yours.  I'm sure there's a separate linguisitic term for each.


The difference is that in my examples the _-li_ is reflexive in meaning and in your examples it is referring to something done to/for the person, like the equivalent of the English 'for' (as you translated it in your last two sentences).  I can't think of a better way to describe it at the moment.  This type of structure is used much more in Arabic than it is in English.


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## elroy

That, to me, is a very significant difference.  It wouldn't have occurred to me to use a set of sentences with one _-li_ to explain the other.  In fact, I wouldn't have even thought of your _-li_ when considering the other one.

The fact that each _-li_ has a different set of English equivalents shows how different they are from each other.


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## Josh_

Yes, you are right.  I understood what was meant by _mHayyar-li_ as I have encountered structures like that many times, but what happened was that I mixed up the different usages of _li_ in my ensuing explaantion and then gave the wrong explanation.  So what I said in post #16 can be ignored.


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