# proyectar la tecnología



## Estebandido

"[A]nte la imposibilidad eventual de volver a proyectar la tecnología existente o del desarrollo de nuevas tecnologías, esas empresas pueden echar mano de mecanismos característicos de la plusvalía absoluta para la realización de sus procesos económicos."

My attempt: "Given the impossibility of redesigning existing technology or developing new technology, those businesses can lend a hand in the form of mechanisms characteristic of absolute surplus value to carry out their work processes."


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## machokrap

For me it's hard to say what "proyectar" means without more context, I hate the way the whole thing is worded. "Echar mano" means something like "make use of" in this context. I hope someone can help you with "plusvalía", not clear either to me.


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## Estebandido

machokrap said:


> For me it's hard to say what "proyectar" means without more context, I hate the way the whole thing is worded. "Echar mano" means something like "make use of" in this context. I hope someone can help you with "plusvalía", not clear either to me.



Yeah, it's a very stilted sentence. The broader context is the recovered businesses of Argentina, which are getting by with outdated (but still functional) equipment. They tend to extend the working day to compensate for their disadvantages.

Here's the preceding sentence, if it helps: "[E]n estas experiencias, la “estrategia competitiva” puede echar mano de mecanismos como la extensión de la jornada de trabajo no remunerada o inclusive la flexibilización de la masa salarial para acompañar las oscilaciones del mercado."

That's a very helpful tip on "echar mano" -- thanks.


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## Belgeval

Yo apostaría a que por "proyectar" se refieren a impulsar o promover. Así, _promote_ me parece una buena opción.


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## Estebandido

Pero no es tecnología que se vende, sino que es usada por los trabajadores.


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## Estebandido

Estebandido said:


> Pero no es tecnología que se vende, sino que es usada por los trabajadores.



I'm looking again at "imposibilidad eventual de volver a..."  Does this refer to the fact that the technology will eventually wear out? If so, that's the most important point in the sentence, and "proyectar" is secondary.


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## William Stein

Estebandido said:


> "[A]nte la imposibilidad eventual"



Doesn't this mean "If it is impossible to..." (si no "eventual" no tendría sentido)



Estebandido said:


> proyectar la tecnología existente o del desarrollo de nuevas tecnologías"


extend the use of existing technologies or develop new ones

Plus-valía absoluta must be "absoluted value added'. Look at this text, which is almost as bad as your own!:


*Value added - RWE AG - Annual Report 2009*
rwecom-online-report-2009.production.investis.com/.../wertbeitrag.aspx


Our organic performance can primarily be deduced from the development of *absolute value added*, the central controlling instrument for all of the RWE Group's ...


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## Estebandido

How about this: "Given that it will eventually be impossible to extend the use of existing technologies or develop new ones..." But that makes it sound like they are doomed to run out of technology, which I don't think is the author's point.


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## William Stein

It would hardly ever be impossible to extend the use of existing technologies and your ignoring the "eventualmente". Can't it mean "In the event that it is impossible to..."


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## machokrap

Estebandido said:


> I'm looking again at "imposibilidad eventual de volver a..."  Does this refer to the fact that the technology will eventually wear out? If so, that's the most important point in the sentence, and "proyectar" is secondary.


The only thing I can think of is that "proyectar" is something like: incorporating the 'technology' into their projects/designs/plans (make use of again!?) but it's just my inference, because I've never come across this usage.
"Faced with the eventual possibility of not being able to ----- again"


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## Estebandido

William Stein said:


> It would hardly ever be impossible to extend the use of existing technologies and your ignoring the "eventualmente". Can't it mean "In the event that it is impossible to..."



OK, I do see where "eventual" is used to mean "potential/possible." So, I'm left with "the possible impossibility..."

How's this: "Faced with the potential inability to expand(?) existing technologies or develop new ones, the businesses can make use of mechanisms that are characteristic of absolute surplus value to carry out their work processes."


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## William Stein

machokrap said:


> The only thing I can think of is that "proyectar" is something like: incorporating the 'technology' into their projects/designs/plans (make use of again!?) but it's just my inference, because I've never come across this usage.
> "Faced with the eventual possibility of not being able to ----- again"



"Eventual" doesn't mean "possible" in English, it means "final"/"consiguiente". "It should be in the event that it is impossible..."
I agree with your interpretation of incorporating the existing technology into their projects, which is the same as extending the use of it new projects.


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## William Stein

Estebandido said:


> OK, I do see where "eventual" is used to mean "potential/possible." So, I'm left with "the possible impossibility..."
> 
> How's this: "Faced with the potential inability to expand(?) existing technologies or develop new ones, the businesses can make use of mechanisms that are characteristic of absolute surplus value to carry out their work processes."



Está mal escrito en español, en inglés basta con: If it is impossible to expand the use of... The rest of your sentence is perfect.


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## Estebandido

William Stein said:


> Está mal escrito en español, en inglés basta con: If it is impossible to expand the use of... The rest of your sentence is perfect.



Yeah, that works for me. Thanks for all the help!


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## William Stein

Estebandido said:


> Yeah, that works for me. Thanks for all the help!



Sure, para lo demás.se me occurió esto: such companies may resort to "absolute-value added" mechanisms to carry out their processes.


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## Estebandido

William Stein said:


> Sure, para lo demás.se me occurió esto: such companies may resort to "absolute-value added" mechanisms to carry out their processes.



Actually, I'm sticking with "absolute surplus value." If you Google it, you'll find lots of discussions about relative vs. absolute surplus value, and they have everything to do with making workers work longer hours, which is what this is about (see my second post here).


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## Argieman

William Stein said:


> Está mal escrito en español, en inglés basta con: If it is impossible to expand the use of... The rest of your sentence is perfect.


Pobre Estebandido, le tocó un material escrito en un español enmarañado. 
I agree with "Faced with the potential inability to". Now, proyectar, here, is imo kinda "make the most of the technology that already exists", while to expand would mean developing new ones, and that is the same that is said in the 2nd part, I mean "to develop new ones".
The original phrase in spanish said "empresas", I´d like better "companies", "corporations" or "enterprises" instead of "businesses". "Plusvalía" is not used outside Marxism, and it´s usually translated as "surplus".
If you agree, you may give it a better form in English.
Abrazo


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## William Stein

Estebandido said:


> Actually, I'm sticking with "absolute surplus value." If you Google it, you'll find lots of discussions about relative vs. absolute surplus value, and they have everything to do with making workers work longer hours, which is what this is about (see my second post here).



I'm not sure of your context but my understanding of the difference is this: "Surplus value" is a Marxist term describing how employers exploit the workers (I've read just a little Marx and I hardly ever translate that stuff) whereas "Value-Added" is a term used by corporate managers who glorify the business world. Which type of text are you translating? I can't imagine that they would use the term "estrategia competitiva" in a Marxist text.


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## Argieman

machokrap said:


> For me it's hard to say what "proyectar" means without more context, I hate the way the whole thing is worded. "Echar mano" means something like "make use of" in this context. I hope someone can help you with "plusvalía", not clear either to me.


It´s a marxist word. To explain it quickly, the worker does part of his daily job to pay his subsistence (his salary). All the rest of his working hours go to the owner of the capital, and is called "pluvalía" (surplus)
Saludo.


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## William Stein

Argieman said:


> It´s a marxist word. To explain it quickly, the worker does part of his daily job to pay his subsistence (his salary). All the rest of his working hours go to the owner of the capital, and is called "pluvalía" (surplus)
> Saludo.



I know it's a Marxist word, when I said I read a "little" it means I suffered through all of "The Communist Manifesto" and a few chapters of "Das Kapital" (I think I still have indigestion from that!). What I mean is that a Marxist term would never be used in a business text of this type, or only very rarely (maybe in some psedo-Marxist Chinese factory manual).


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## Argieman

Jaja! Yes, you´re right. Das Kapital produces indigestion, peptic ulcers, jaundice and convulsions, you were lucky! 
But the thing is that businessmen never use the word "plusvalía". In spanish, this word is limited to marxism, exclusively. That´s why I think that the whole text is marxist. 
The chinese factory manual still keeps me laughing...


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## William Stein

The OP said the context was Argentina:
"The broader context is the recovered businesses of Argentina, which are getting by with outdated (but still functional) equipment. They tend to extend the working day to compensate for their disadvantages."
The author of the text probably isn't a hardcore Marxist if he's talking about how to maximize profits and all that, but who knows, that can only be clarified by the OP who has apparently gone out to dinner or is doing something more interesting now.

Argieman: Google "plusvalia" + "value added"


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## Estebandido

William Stein said:


> I know it's a Marxist word, when I said I read a "little" it means I suffered through all of "The Communist Manifesto" and a few chapters of "Das Kapital" (I think I still have indigestion from that!). What I mean is that a Marxist term would never be used in a business text of this type, or only very rarely (maybe in some psedo-Marxist Chinese factory manual).



The recovered businesses attract attention from people across the political spectrum, or at least from a wide variety of types of leftists. The text I was struggling with is from a conference, so there's a lot of academic jargon, to go along with the political jargon. So, yes, I'm pretty sure the author was using it in the Marxist sense. 

Argieman, I used "businesses" because "empresas recuperadas" is consistently translated as "recovered businesses," so I want to keep it consistent even when the "recovered" part is implicit. And, normally, I'd use your suggestion to translate "proyectar" as "make the most of," but I can't picture a situation where the workers wouldn't be able to make the most of their technology. I'm using "expand" to mean buying more (outdated) technology, as distinguished from replacing the outdated technology with new technology.


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## Argieman

Estebandido said:


> Yeah, it's a very stilted sentence. The broader context is the recovered businesses of Argentina, which are getting by with outdated (but still functional) equipment. They tend to extend the working day to compensate for their disadvantages.
> 
> Here's the preceding sentence, if it helps: "[E]n estas experiencias, la “estrategia competitiva” puede echar mano de mecanismos como la extensión de la jornada de trabajo no remunerada o inclusive la flexibilización de la masa salarial para acompañar las oscilaciones del mercado."
> 
> That's a very helpful tip on "echar mano" -- thanks.





William Stein said:


> I know it's a Marxist word, when I said I read a "little" it means I suffered through all of "The Communist Manifesto" and a few chapters of "Das Kapital" (I think I still have indigestion from that!). What I mean is that a Marxist term would never be used in a business text of this type, or only very rarely (maybe in some psedo-Marxist Chinese factory manual).


i*Hey William, listen!*
This particular quote of the text shows us clearly that it´s a marxist text. It´s usual here to listen "to extend the working hours without payment" and "salary mass flexibilization" from leftist politicians, that´s why I think the whole text is marxist, and not a business text.


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## Estebandido

Argieman said:


> Pobre Estebandido, le tocó un material escrito en un español enmarañado. o



I forgot to mention that the Spanish text is actually a translation from Portuguese.


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## Argieman

Estebandido said:


> The recovered businesses attract attention from people across the political spectrum, or at least from a wide variety of types of leftists. The text I was struggling with is from a conference, so there's a lot of academic jargon, to go along with the political jargon. So, yes, I'm pretty sure the author was using it in the Marxist sense.
> 
> Argieman, I used "businesses" because "empresas recuperadas" is consistently translated as "recovered businesses," so I want to keep it consistent even when the "recovered" part is implicit. And, normally, I'd use your suggestion to translate "proyectar" as "make the most of," but I can't picture a situation where the workers wouldn't be able to make the most of their technology. I'm using "expand" to mean buying more (outdated) technology, as distinguished from replacing the outdated technology with new technology.


I get it, now it´s clear. It´s a hard text to translate, because it is a complex subject (unless you´re used to the business jargon) and it is not written in an elegant, so to say, spanish. 
We may say "está escrito para la mierda" in an unpolite but very clear spanish!


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## Argieman

Estebandido said:


> I forgot to mention that the Spanish text is actually a translation from Portuguese.


Ah! yes, now it´s still more clear, translation of a translation. With your work on this text, you are generating a huge surplus, indeed.


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## William Stein

Argieman said:


> i*Hey William, listen!*
> This particular quote of the text shows us clearly that it´s a marxist text. It´s usual here to listen "to extend the working hours without payment" and "salary mass flexibilization" from leftist politicians, that´s why I think the whole text is marxist, and not a business text.



Yeah okay, I guess you can find that kind of thing in a university conference. I was just thinking it wasn't statistically very likely (at least I never have to translate that kind of thing, probably because they can't usually afford a professional translation).


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## Argieman

William Stein said:


> The OP said the context was Argentina:
> "The broader context is the recovered businesses of Argentina, which are getting by with outdated (but still functional) equipment. They tend to extend the working day to compensate for their disadvantages."
> The author of the text probably isn't a hardcore Marxist if he's talking about how to maximize profits and all that, but who knows, that can only be clarified by the OP who has apparently gone out to dinner or is doing something more interesting now.
> 
> Argieman: Google "plusvalia" + "value added"


No, I didn´t say it was a hardcore marxist text, just marxist, or leftist (what the hell is marxism today?).
And yes, the OP must be dining in Puerto Madero (expensive-exclusive-fashionable zone of Buenos Aires) probably in good company.


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## William Stein

Argieman said:


> No, I didn´t say it was a hardcore marxist text, just marxist, or leftist (what the hell is marxism today?).
> And yes, the OP must be dining in Puerto Madero (expensive-exclusive-fashionable zone of Buenos Aires) probably in good company.



I think only a hardcore Marxist would use that term "surplus value" because the whole idea is that no product should ever be sold at more than it's "real value" or whetever the hell they call it and any "surplus value" is theft and exploitation of humanity (excuse me while I sing the Internationale, oh that's better, thanks...)
I know Puerto Madero, I lived not too far from there in Plaza San Martín a couple months (great area, beautiful park, beautiful pibas, etc.).


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## Argieman

William, you lived here, in my city! Qué pequeño es el mundo,my granma would say. 
Yes, the pibas there are beautiful, and you may even see not-so-pibas (35-40, say) that are wonderful. 
The only problem is that you need to have plenty of dollars in your wallet.
You may try to invite them to some bar in Almagro or Boedo, but they´ll most probably refuse. (they´ll catch in a second you are pennyless)
On the other hand, you may hear some leftist politicians (light left, not hardcore marxists) use "plusvalía", though it´s use is decaying.
I´m leaving, I have a meeting of my Trotskist party.


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