# Are 'fuck' and 'ass' really offensive words?



## valdemar

I was wondering how offensive these words 'fuck' and 'ass' can be in English. My confusion is because I hear them everywhere, in movies, on the radio, on the internet, etc. What is your position on it? As for me, I never use them because their equivalents in Spanish sound very 'strong' and 'uneducated', but I don't know in English and I might sound very antiquated if I don't use them. My perception is that 'ass' is less agressive than 'fuck' but I'm not sure.


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## perpend

My position is that there's a time and place for everything. I think expletives are fine. They mirror the way people really talk. Do you necessarily want to use them in front of your kids? Hmmm. Most often not, but reality happens.

My position is also that people shouldn't get so hung up on words. We have bigger f__h to fry in this world.


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## valdemar

perpend said:


> My position is that there's a time and place for everything. I think expletives are fine. They mirror the way people really talk.



Yes, I agree.  When I'm with my friends or with my family I often say a lot of words that I wouldn't normaly say if there is a special guest or talking formaly. These words that are used in informal conversations, most of them, can be used in tv and also on the radio. But there are words that are very strong, and are like  'taboo's. In spanish the equivalents of these two words are that way and are almost always avoided. So my guess is that in English is not the case and can be used freely in informal speech.


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## perpend

Not necessarily. Discretion is always the key. And there's a word "sorry" to say "oops, I shouldn't have said that in front of 'company'/'guests'".


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## heypresto

I firmly agree with perpend, but I would advise against deliberately using these words to sound 'cool' or to avoid 'sounding antiquated'. To use them inappropriately could have the exact opposite effect.


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## Keith Bradford

valdemar said:


> ... their equivalents in Spanish sound very 'strong' and 'uneducated'...


So do they in English.  Avoid.


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## Thomas Tompion

Avoid, particularly if you are not a native speaker.

My French is pretty fluent, but I've heard foreigners using these words in English, so I avoid using similar words in French.  

They sound particularly offensive when used by people who aren't quite sure of their possible overtones.

Some people forget that the sound 'Ow', which English speakers emit when they hurt themselves, is part of language - the French say 'Aiee'.  Swearwords need to be spontaneous and natural if they are not to be offensive.  Foreign speakers can't achieve this spontaneity very easily, even after thirty years of residence in the country.

So, I agree with Keith: avoid.


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## Egmont

Yesterday afternoon the Boston Red Sox professional baseball team played their first home game after the bombings at the Marathon finish line on Monday and the subsequent search for the bombers. David Ortiz, a member of the team for many years, gave a short speech before the game. In a statement of defiance to the bombers, he said (among other things) "This is our fucking city!" His speech, including that word, was broadcast by many television and radio stations. 

The chairman of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission, Julius Genachowski, then said that he supported Ortiz's use of the word and the stations' choice to broadcast it. In a tweet, he wrote "David Ortiz spoke from the heart at today's Red Sox game." 

If the FCC accepts the word "fucking" on the air in a suitable situation, it can't be considered totally offensive in 2013. Still, it must be used appropriately. Correct use of this type of word is one of the hardest things to learn in any language. I would urge non-native speakers, even those who are reasonably fluent, not to use it.


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## JustKate

Let me just add my endorsement of what seems to be the general consensus here, which is that when to use these words - particularly "fuck" ("ass" is a lot milder) - is a very tricky and intricate decision. Please don't attempt it until you're not only fairly fluent in English but (even more important) also knowledgeable about the culture or subculture in which you find yourself. I have seen *native* speakers use "fuck" when they should not have, and the results have not been good. What people accept from a character in a movie and what they accept from someone standing in front of them, someone they think "should know better than that!" are two very different things.


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## Keith Bradford

Egmont said:


> ... he said (among other things) "This is our fucking city!" His speech, including that word, was broadcast by many television and radio stations...



Many unpleasant things get broadcast - even film of terrorist bombings gets broadcast.  That doesn't make these things acceptable, nor do we advise members on this website to perform them.  Do make the distinction.


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## Egmont

Keith Bradford said:


> Many unpleasant things get broadcast - even film of terrorist bombings gets broadcast.  That doesn't make these things acceptable, nor do we advise members on this website to perform them.  Do make the distinction.


It was not the broadcasting that made it acceptable. It was the public approval of the broadcasting by the chairman of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission, an organization that is known for enforcing decency standards strictly, that confirmed its acceptability (on this occasion, not in general).

However, I concur completely in the concluding recommendation: unless you are absolutely certain that you know how to use these words correctly and that the situation is appropriate, do not use them. They are never necessary and will often be taken as offensive even if they are not meant to be.


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## valdemar

Thank you so much everyone for your answers and recommendations. 


In fact this idea of using such words considering that I'm not a native speaker makes me think of the analogous situation in Spanish. When a non native speaker, specially American, use these words, even when the situation is appropriate, sounds weird. Sometimes sounds funny because of the accent, sometimes we just change the subject... I don't remember in what movie, but I saw Al Pacino cursing in Spanish and it was very funny (if it was in real life I would say ridiculous) because of the accent. Actually I think it would be a lot more natural and almost with the same effect if such words are substituded by a milder equivalent. When the meaning is literal like for example "They were fucking yesterday on this hotel" I would probably think of 'having sex' as a substitute, like "They were having sex yesterday on this hotel". *What words would you use to substitute when 'fuck' is used as intensifier?*("...An there is again, the fucking little thing", "...What a fuck!",..). I had tought of the word 'bloody' but I think it's from England and I don't know how offensive this word is compered with 'fuck'. As for 'ass' I don't really know because there are alot of set phrases, would you use these expressions in tv on radio?: 'I'm going to kick your ass', "It's a pain in the ass", "I'm goig to nail you ass",...


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## frenchifried

Using fuck (and maybe bloody) as an intensifier is about as lazy as you can get when writing or speaking English. In my day, 'fucking' or 'having sex' was a rather cold and unfeeling version of 'making love' - but then, I'm old-fashioned.


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## wolfbm1

I don't think one can substitute vulgar expressions with other words. Very often profane language is used to bully, intimidate or challenge the addressee. 
I was surprised to find it in a story told by an autistic boy:
"I had been hugging the dog for 4 minutes when I heard screaming. I looked up and saw Mrs Shears running towards me from the patio. 
She was shouting, 'What in fuck's name have you done to my dog?'.
...
'Let go of the dog,' she shouted. 'Let go of the fucking dog for Christ's sake.'

I put the dog down on the lawn and moved back 2 metres."  Source:An excerpt, in the New York Times, from the book 'The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time' by Mark Haddon.


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## Loob

Wolf, I don't think you should be surprised to find it in contexts such as the one you have given.

But I agree with everyone else: it's better if second-language-speakers of English avoid such expressions.


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## Egmont

wolfbm1 said:


> ... I was surprised to find it in a story told by an autistic boy:
> "I had been hugging the dog for 4 minutes when I heard screaming. I looked up and saw Mrs Shears running towards me from the patio.
> She was shouting, 'What in fuck's name have you done to my dog?'.
> ...
> 'Let go of the dog,' she shouted. 'Let go of the fucking dog for Christ's sake.' ...


This autistic narrator here is, as many people on the autistic spectrum are, quite literal and he has an excellent memory. He is, fictionally, relating what he heard with total accuracy. He might not have said "fuck" or "fucking" himself, but Mrs. Shears did, so he records that.


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## kozlova

Okay, this is long, but I had fun thinking about the topic.

*On the topic of vulgarity.*

"Fuck" like most curses can also be considered "just informal" in addition to vulgar. It's perceived level of vulgarity changes with a variety of factors. Obviously social setting and familiarity with the people you are speaking with are very important.

Tone of voice, body language, etc. *also* play a large part in the relative "appropriateness" of curses. If you're smiling and joking with your friends and someone says "Do you want to go get some food?" and you respond, "Fucking right" maintaining consistent tone and volume, smile, calm body language throughout the entire interaction, then it's more likely to _not_ be considered vulgar and just be considered _informal_. This can even be true with strangers, provided those strangers are your peers and those peers appear to behave fairly informally, but with complete strangers you're obviously better off just refraining from using curses. So, a great way to make curse words come off _less_ vulgar and _more_ simply informal, is to just say them casually.

*On the topic of non-native speakers "sounding funny" when using slang.*

Slang is accepted the more you sound like you fit in. If you have a very thick accent, you're going to sound funny no matter what. That's just the truth. That doesn't mean people will openly make fun of you or mock you. They might be very nice to you. But they'll still probably think you sound funny. If your accent is more American (I'm assuming since you're from Mexico, you're less interested in sounding British), people will accept your use of American slang more often.

The other part of "sounding like you fit in" is confidence. If you say the word tentatively, it's going to sound strange. I know fluent English speakers who still have _very_ thick Oaxacan and Chilango accents. But because they're fluent, they know exactly what they mean, and so when they say "Fuck" it doesn't sound weird. If you want to sound like you belong, then whenever you say the word "Fuck," say it confidently, like you absolutely know you're using it correctly. And honestly, the word "Fuck" can be used in pretty much every situation. It may not be _socially _appropriate, but it always usually makes contextual and linguistic sense. So if you want to sound like you belong, just say it with confidence.

The other thing to think about is how social interactions change over time. If you say "Fuck" with a thick foreign accent to a stranger, he might laugh at you. But why are you swearing in front of strangers, anyway? That's inappropriate. If you say "Fuck" with your normal accent to a group of your friends, they might think it sounds funny the first time. But the more you use it correctly, the more that you show you understand its contextual purpose, over time, they will come to accept it. They won't care.
*
The reason why curses make you sound funny.*

When you shout "Fuck" because you're angry, no one thinks you sound funny (provided you do it correctly). They just think you're rude. 

The "sounding funny" thing comes from when you try to use curse words not as vulgarity, but just as informal speech among friends. Why? Again, if your friend asks "Do you want some food?" and you say, "Fucking right," why do they think that sounds funny? Because making curses _informal_ and _not_ rude requires a fairly large amount of cultural sophistication and familiarity with the language that no one expects from some foreign person. If you're not completely fluent, they don't expect that level of sophistication. They're surprised by it and it's funny. But the more they get used to it, the less weird it sounds.
*
What should I use instead of curses?
*
Nothing. Sure, you could probably find something but it won't really be the same. If you want an intensifier that isn't "fucking" then use "really" or "very" or any of the other non-slang English intensifying words. I know it's not the same, but think of it this way: There isn't another word you can use instead of "Fuck" because _why would there be?
_
Native speakers are completely fluent in the social and cultural aspect of our own language. We know when it's "appropriate" to use swear words and when not to use them. So why would we, as a culture, take the time to organically create different "replacement" words that all native speakers understand and accept just so that a non-native speaker doesn't have to be confused by when to use the word "Fuck?" We wouldn't. That's why there's nothing that's really the same.

And that fucking sucks, huh?


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## wolfbm1

Loob said:


> Wolf, I don't think you should be surprised to find it in contexts such as the one you have given.
> 
> Iut I agree with everyone else: it's better if second-language-speakers of English avoid such expressions.


I will heed your advice. I don't want to sound ugly or funny.
I wonder how Mrs Shears could have expressed her anger in a more civilised way. Maybe:
What on earth have you done to my dog?


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## AutumnOwl

wolfbm1 said:


> I wonder how Mrs Shears could have expressed her anger in a more civilised way. Maybe:
> What on earth have you done to my dog?


When you are very upset, angry or scared even people who normally don't use swear words can forget their civilised ways and use foul language, although I prefer more creative expletives similar to those used by captain Haddock.


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## perpend

From valdemar above: *What words would you use to substitute when 'fuck' is used as intensifier?*



kozlova said:


> *
> What should I use instead of curses?
> *
> Nothing. Sure, you could probably find something but it won't really be the same. If you want an intensifier that isn't "fucking" then use "really" or "very" or any of the other non-slang English intensifying words. I know it's not the same, but think of it this way: There isn't another word you can use instead of "Fuck" because _why would there be?
> _
> Native speakers are completely fluent in the social and cultural aspect of our own language. We know when it's "appropriate" to use swear words and when not to use them. So why would we, as a culture, take the time to organically create different "replacement" words that all native speakers understand and accept just so that a non-native speaker doesn't have to be confused by when to use the word "Fuck?" We wouldn't. That's why there's nothing that's really the same.
> 
> And that fucking sucks, huh?



There is a total culture not to be dismissed that has grown around avoiding "fuck". I won't address "ass", but here's what I hear and use when I want to fucking intensify something, valdemar. I'm sure you've heard these too.

frickin'
effen
F'n
friggin'
flippin'

I honestly don't know how to spell some of those. For an interjection, instead of "fuck" some people use "fudge", or, "fiddlesticks", but that's coming from my memory eons ago, so I may be imagining it.


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## kozlova

perpend said:


> From valdemar above: *What words would you use to substitute when 'fuck' is used as intensifier?*
> 
> 
> 
> There is a total culture not to be dismissed that has grown around avoiding "fuck". I won't address "ass", but here's what I hear and use when I want to fucking intensify something, valdemar. I'm sure you've heard these too.
> 
> frickin'
> effen
> F'n
> friggin'
> flippin'
> 
> I honestly don't know how to spell some of those. For an interjection, instead of "fuck" some people use "fudge", or, "fiddlesticks", but that's coming from my memory eons ago, so I may be imagining it.



That point is completely valid, and one that I did put some thought into, but I would argue that none of those are viable substitutes for "Fuck" in the way that OP is looking for. They usually come across as childish, or overly concerned with being polite. Children learn the slang flippin' because they aren't allowed to use the word "Fuck." Friggin' is closer, a little gruffer, but essentially the same. Imagine getting punched in the face and shouting "Fiddlesticks." 

All of these words grew out of the necessity to _avoid_ "Fuck," to _imply _"Fuck," but I would argue that when it comes to expressing a given emotion on a specific, culturally sophisticated level that doesn't sound silly, _none _of those words could ever be substituted for fuck.


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## velisarius

There is a question of spontaneity here. I could overlook the coarseness of someone using a strong swearword in front of me if they were obviously so stressed out that the word just shot out of their mouth. I'd be less inclined to accept swearwords from someone who is using them in a calculated way, in fact to shock or provoke. When a non-native speaker (even very fluent) uses this kind of speech, to me it comes over as premeditated, and I might be offended. I know from my own experience that if I'm experiencing something strongly enough to make me use foul language, that language has to be English, automatically, even though I often think in another language.


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## twinklestar

American movie: The Unusual Suspects

Cop: But I know Keaton, and someone is out there pulling strings for you.Stay here and let us protect you. 

Verbal: I'm not bait. No way. I post today.

Cop: You posted 20 minutes ago. Capt. Leo wants you out of here, unless you turn state's. 

Verbal: I'll take my chances. Thank you!

...

A cop had been questioning a suspect named verbal. He hoped Verbal could turn state's evidence before verbal posted bail. Verbal said no.  

When Verbal was leaving the cop's office, and he stopped at the door, and turned his face to the cop with mixing facial expression-weeping, distaining, a little bit angry, etc. WEAKLY saying, "fuckin cops". Then he walked away.

The cop seemed he wasn't offended at all by the words -fuckin cops. He said nothing, and looked very calm, just closed the door after he watched Verbal left.

Why? Could you possibly tell me why it was not offensive?  I've tried my best to describe the scene.

Thank you!


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## Thomas Tompion

Because on the lips of a native speaker 'fucking' has almost no meaning at all; it's not even an intensive.

These words are so common that some people with limited vocabularies use scarcely any other noun, verb, or adjective.

A friend of mine was a young lieutenant commanding a mule train over a mountain pass in the Second World War, taking guns to Slim's army in Burma.  One of the mules collapsed and my friend went over with his sergeant to see what was the matter.

"Fucking fucker's fucked", said the private soldier in charge of the mule - he meant that the poor beast was exhausted.

The sergeant, conscious that maybe inappropriate language had been used in front of an officer, turned to my friend to excuse the soldier, and said: "Don't mind him, Sir.  He's a coarse fucker".

Nobody would have taken the least personal offense during this exchange, but don't use language like this when having tea with your maiden aunts, or on your visit to the Palace.  

And don't use such language if you are not a native speaker.


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## twinklestar

Thomas Tompion said:


> Because on the lips of a native speaker 'fucking' has almost no meaning at all; it's not even an intensive.
> 
> These words are so common that some people with limited vocabularies use scarcely any other noun, verb, or adjective.



Thank you for your reply in details.


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## Andygc

Jas333 said:


> neither are offensive


Really? So if a Scotsman comes up to you and shouts in your face "You're a fucking English bastard!" you won't be offended?


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

If one is English, "an English (or 'Sassenach') bastard" would be offensive by itself; "fucking",  "bloody" and "goddamn" would be pretty much the same.
Note also that "ass", when used and understood as meaning"idiot", isn't a swear word.
_<-----Off-topic comment and Spanish words removed by moderator (Florentia52)----->_


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## Andygc

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> If one is English, "an English (or 'Sassenach') bastard" would be offensive by itself


No, it depends on context. "You English bastards sometimes do OK at rugby, don't you?" said over a pint of beer would not be at all offensive. Whether "fucking" is offensive or not depends entirely on context. It's simply not true to say neither is offensive. "Fucking" most certainly can be. Although "ass" isn't normally offensive in BE, being as it is a small horse-like creature with long ears. Many a well-brought-up young lady has said "You silly ass" without causing any offence to anybody.


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## Thomas Tompion

In view of Andy's comments about a small horse-like creature, I'm wondering if we aren't mired in the ass/arse misunderstanding again.

Intentionally so, in Andy's case, if I am any judge.


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## Andygc

Thomas Tompion said:


> Intentionally so, in Andy's case, if I am any judge.


Well, TT, AE "ass" and "BE "arse" don't appear to have  identical meanings - but this is not the thread for that discussion.


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## Thomas Tompion

Maybe not, but I don't think small horse-like creatures with long ears have a place in this discussion, though I enjoyed the idea.

There's one across the valley now, voicing its approval.


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## PaulQ

Fuck and similar words are a quite strange social phenomenon: it is the listener who, by custom, agrees to be offended. There is no "offensiveness" in any word itself. I am informed that, although English offensive words are used, in Welsh there is only one obscenity (the word for "Devil") but if I said the word to a non-Welsh speaker, there would be no offence, or if I said "Devil" to an English speaker, there would be no real offence.

The advice then is perpend's - a time and place for everything.


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## Thomas Tompion

PaulQ said:


> The advice then is perpend's - a time and place for everything.


I can think of quite a few things to which I'd wish to grant neither a time nor a place.


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## PaulQ

Yes, that is a good example of the subjectivity of offensive words.


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## Keith Bradford

twinklestar said:


> American movie: The Unusual Suspects...
> ... Could you possibly tell me why it was not offensive?  I've tried my best to describe the scene...



It *was *offensive.  However, the policeman being an experienced and well-trained professional, was careful not to appear offended.


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## Copperknickers

The important thing to know about Anglophone culture and profanity is that, similar to other languages, profanities are considered macho and audacious, and it is often expected that people who want to be considered macho and audacious use them, to show that they are not afraid to take risks. The result is that, while swear words are considered offensive, they are also an important part of conversation amongst macho types in macho contexts (which can cover various situations, but traditionally would have been young working class men, or upper class men in the military and positions of authority). It is considered extremely impolite and overbearing to use strong language in contexts where politeness and refinement are encouraged, but equally, in impolite and competitive contexts such as a military barracks or a tough inner city neighbourhood, NOT being course and audacious is seen as a sign of shyness and weakness, because a soldier for example who can't handle tough conditions and doesn't want to come across as daring and confident is not much use as a companion in battle.

These days (i.e. from the 1960s onwards) swearing is acceptable from native speakers in many if not most informal social situations, due to the increasing importance of youth culture and working class culture which were previously frowned upon.


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## Keith Bradford

In other words, crude and impolite people are admired by crude and impolite people.


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## Copperknickers

Keith Bradford said:


> In other words, crude and impolie people are admired by cride and impolte people.



You may call them crude and impolite if that is your opinion of them, but uneducated, not so much. Some of the most foul mouthed people on the planet are Etonian and Harrovian officers at Sandhurst. And Princes Harry and Philip are not known for being softly spoken in private either.


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## MattiasNYC

And, conversely, some very eloquent and highly educated people have been responsible for uttering some of the most offensive statements ever, albeit, as I said, eloquently. We'd all do well focusing more on the message than the way it's delivered.


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## twinklestar

Thank you for your input, everyone.

I suddenly have some idea about the usaging of "fuck" etc. when I associate the equivalent words in my mother tongue.

I assume it depends on whom "I" am talking to, and who I am (my social status, my education, my upbringing etc.), and the background of the converstation.

I suddenly realise the policeman in the movie didn't take it seriously because he had been dealing with numerous hard-core criminals, suspects during all his carreer. Many of them, if no everyone,  are less educated, or without appropriate upbringing, and they might grow up in slum, where appropriate etiquettes are not expected. And the policeman just got used to it. Probably swearing such as fucking, ass, etc would become daily language of theirs. They keep using it, something like pet phrase.

I remember a few days ago I read a post in other Chinese forum. A forum member said "Shoot (equivalent in Chinese), blah blah" to respond to a moderator in his post. I wouldn't be really offended, if I was the moderator. But if I was a teacher, I would definitely be offended by the word-"shoot" my pupils spoke to me.

(I remember someone once told me shoot is the euphemism for fucking)

Do you think the above words make any sense when it comes to the application of "f**k" in English ?


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## Cagey

Yes, I think that is a good way to understand the use of those words. 

My general advice is not to use them if you are not a native speaker.  It's difficult to know how they will sound to people, and you don't want to accidentally seem disrespectful.


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## twinklestar

Cagey said:


> Yes, I think that is a good way to understand the use of those words.
> 
> My general advice is not to use them if you are not a native speaker.  It's difficult to know how they will sound to people, and you don't want to accidentally seem disrespectful.



Thank you very much! It is really inspiring to know it a little bit suddenly.

I wouldn't like to use it in English, and I also feel very uncomfortable to use the equivalent words in my mother tongue unless I was extremely angry.


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