# FR: and what if he had to find



## englishman

How does:

"et s'il devait trouver .."

or

"et s'il a dû trouver .."

sound for a translation of the title ?


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## keya

et s'il avait dû trouver..?


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## englishman

keya said:


> et s'il avait dû trouver..?



So how do you translate:

"and what if he had had to find .." ?

And what does "s'il a dû trouver .." translate as, in English ?


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## keya

what's the whole sentence please?


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## englishman

keya said:


> what's the whole sentence please?



There isn't one but if you feel happier translating a whole sentence, try:

"And what if he had to find the book ?"


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## juliobenjimino

englishman said:


> "And what if he had to find the book ?"


 
i would plump for 's'il devait trouver le livre', as it is a si clause therefore using the imperfect.


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## englishman

juliobenjimino said:


> i would plump for 's'il devait trouver le livre', as it is a si clause therefore using the imperfect.



I don't follow the bit about si clauses and imperfect - how does that work ?


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## shyne88

juliobenjimino said:


> i would plump for 's'il devait trouver le livre', as it is a si clause therefore using the imperfect.


 
and to add on, a si clause used in the imperfect is followed by an independant clause in the conditional.

S'il devait trouver le livre, il n'aurait pas assez du temps pour accomplir ce qu'il voulait au dabord.


(I have never heard "i would plump for..." lol ^^)


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## juliobenjimino

englishman said:


> There isn't one but if you feel happier translating a whole sentence, try:
> 
> "And what if he had to find the book ?"


 
A 'si clause' is sentence structure which goes: a condition ('if'), followed by an outcome ('then'). For example:

IF I had the money, THEN I would travel
IF I had time, I would do it

These phrases use the _imperfect + conditional _structure

Si _j'avais_ l'argent, je _voyagerais_
Si _j'avais_ le temps, je le _ferais_

try the about french website for a full explanation on si clauses:
http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa090699.htm

bonne chance!


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## englishman

juliobenjimino said:


> These phrases use the _imperfect + conditional _structure
> 
> Si _j'avais_ l'argent, je _voyagerais_
> Si _j'avais_ le temps, je le _ferais_



Right. I think I knew that 30 years ago. Thanks for reminding me.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's relevant, because my sentence isn't an "if ..then" - it's a "what if .." sentence, which I assume need not require an imperfect.

Any natives around to sort this out ?


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## shyne88

englishman said:


> Right. I think I knew that 30 years ago. Thanks for reminding me.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't think it's relevant, because my sentence isn't an "if ..then" - it's a "what if .." sentence, which I assume need not require an imperfect.
> 
> Any natives around to sort this out ?


 

im not a native, but im confused as to where you want this sentence. if your saying its a what if sort of sentence with no finishing indepedent "then" clause then say something like 

'disons qu'il devait trouver le livre' or if its like an explanation 'mettons qu'il devait trouver le livre'


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## englishman

shyne88 said:


> im *I'm* not a native, but im *I'm* confused as to where you want this sentence. if  *If* your *you're* saying its *it's *a *"*what if*"* sort of sentence with no finishing indepe*n*dent "then" clause then say something like *:*
> 
> 'disons qu'il devait trouver le livre' or if its like an explanation 'mettons qu'il devait trouver le livre'



But that doesn't use "et si" so it's a different formulation. And it doesn't address the main question, which is one of tense, not of how to translate "what if", for which "et si" works fine.


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## Moon Palace

keya said:


> et s'il avait dû trouver..?



That one is 'and what if he had had to find the book'
Potential context: 
A boy is supposed to run for a contest, and he breaks a leg. And the others at school on learning the contest is cancelled '... and what if he had had to do it/ _et s'il avait dû le faire_?' meaning 'imagine if he had had to do it, as he is not here, it *would have been */ _cela aurait été_ a catastrophe.

Hope it is clear


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## englishman

Moon Palace said:


> That one is 'and what if he had had to find the book'



OK, so:

"et s'il a dû trouver .." = "what if he had to find .."
"et s'il avait dû trouver .." = "what if he had had to find .."

but:

"et s'il devait trouver .." = ?

I'm not sure how this one is translated.


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## Moon Palace

S'il avait dû trouver = if he had to find 
's'il a dû trouver' sounds weird. I believe it would only be used in reported speech: elle m'a demandé s'il a dû trouver le graal'
she asked me whether he had to find the grail. 

If he had to find: 
s'il avait dû trouver l'endroit, il n'y serait pas arrivé tout seul. 
If he had had to find the place, he wouldn't have managed by himself. 

S'il devait trouver: 
If he was to find out the truth, he would be mad. 
S'il devait trouver / connaître la vérité, il serait fou de rage. 

What is complicated is that the nuance brought by the context on the verb 'devoir' (obligation / planned event) allows for different translations. 
Hope it helps


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## englishman

Moon Palace said:


> S'il avait dû trouver = if he had to find


You've translated this as "if he had had to find" below, which strikes me as more likely. Surely it's not "if he had to find" ?



> 's'il a dû trouver' sounds weird. I believe it would only be used in reported speech: elle m'a demandé s'il a dû trouver le graal'
> she asked me whether he had to find the grail.


OK, though I have no idea why it sounds wierd.



> If he had to find:
> s'il avait dû trouver l'endroit, il n'y serait pas arrivé tout seul.
> If he had had to find the place, he wouldn't have managed by himself.


Hmm. The first line says "If he had to find", the last says "If he had had to find" ????



> S'il devait trouver:
> If he was  *were* to find out the truth, he would be mad.
> S'il devait trouver / connaître la vérité, il serait fou de rage.


Yikes. "devait" corresponds to "if he were to". I didn't know that. (And by the way, this strictly requires the subjunctive in English - "were" not "was")



> What is complicated is that the nuance brought by the context on the verb 'devoir' (obligation / planned event) allows for different translations.
> Hope it helps


Not really. "devoir" is the Nightmare French Verb of Death from Hell, and I don't think I'll ever be able to translate it properly.


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## Moon Palace

Sorry Englishman for not making it clear enough, and thanks for that subjunctive I forgot. 
S'il avait dû trouver 
Il m'a demandé s'il avait dû trouver... 
He asked me if he had to find ... (have to find occurred in the past, but if I am not mistaken, in English you won't always say 'had had', will you?)
This is due to the simplification of tenses in English, you don't have to make the difference whereas in French we do. 

S'il avait dû comprendre si rapidement, nous n'y serions pas arrivés. 
If he had had to understand so fast, we wouldn't have managed.


Is it clearer now? Hope so.


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## UneFilleTrilingue

englishman said:


> You've translated this as "if he had had to find" below, which strikes me as more likely. Surely it's not "if he had to find" ?
> 
> OK, though I have no idea why it sounds wierd.
> 
> Hmm. The first line says "If he had to find", the last says "If he had had to find" ????
> 
> Yikes. "devait" corresponds to "if he were to". I didn't know that. (And  by the way, this strictly requires the subjunctive in English - "were"  not "was")
> 
> Not really. "devoir" is the Nightmare French Verb of Death from Hell,  and I don't think I'll ever be able to translate it properly. *Il ne faut pas s'inquiéter; c'est pas trop compliqué. *



Englishman: You are right about the pluperfect translation, but Moon Palace has a point. When English speakers talk, they will sometimes say "If I had" in place  of "if I had had"; e.g. "If I had time, I would have gone to the  movies." Grammatically speaking, one should say "If I had had time..." in  front of the past conditional (would have). Hence the discrepancy in  translation; one reflected our official grammatical standard and the other reflected the habits of our natives in spoken language.
As for your confusion regarding "had to", "s'il devait trouver" and "s'il a dû trouver" _both_   translate into English as "if he had to find," while "s'il avait dû   trouver" is "if he had had to find" (French has two past tenses that are used in place of our simple past tense, and they are each for different situations). A native French speaker would   probably not say "s'il a dû trouver" because "il a dû trouver" means "he  had to  (and did) find ___" so it's not logical to put it in an  if-clause.  That's probably why it sounded weird to Moon Palace.

For your case, I think you're looking for "Et s'il devait trouver...?"

Does this help at all?


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## CedGex

7 years later ? I guess it does 

I am native and I found everything you said complicated and interesting at the same time.
My vote goes to: 
- "Et s'il devait trouver" for "and what if he had to find"
- "Et s'il avait eu à trouver" for "and what if he had had to find"


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