# Possessives for pan/pani/państwo



## gvergara

Hi,

I do not quite understand this explanation... I mean, I can understand it, but I am not sure as to how exactly use the possessives for _pan/pani/państwo_.

_The possessive adjectives (also used as possessive pronouns) derived from the personal pronouns are mój, twój, jego (m., n.)/jej (f.); nasz, wasz, ich. There is also a reflexive possessive swój. The polite second-person pronouns have possessives identical to the genitives of the corresponding nouns, although there is a possessive adjective pański corresponding to pan._

I have pasted an extract of the Wikipedia article on Polish grammar, which, as I understand it, says two things: 1.- it indicates that the possessives for the polite second person pronouns are their genitive forms _pana _(male), _pani _(female), and _państwa _(group), but I do not understand whether these forms are declined, and 2.- it also says that the masculine pronoun _pan _has its own possessive _pański_, which is declined as a normal adjective according to this dictionary. Then, I "read" this thread, but did not actually understand it. Could you please shed some light on these two points?

Thanks so much in advance,

G.


----------



## zaffy

I guess we would need you to provide some specific examples that puzzle you.


----------



## Drakonica

pana, pani, panów, pań, państwa are possessive pronouns
Probably it is "przydawka wyrażona rzeczownikiem/zaimkiem" (an attribute expressed by a noun/pronoun).
Pana dom. Dom drwala. Najstarszy dom naszego miasta.
Your (sir) house. Lumberjack's house. The oldest house of our city.

pański is an adjective

"Pański" may also means master's, lord's.


[Lp]    pan    pana    panu    pana    panem    panu    panie
[Lm]    panowie    panów    panom    panów    panami    panach    panowie

[Lp]    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana
[Lm]    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana    pana

[Lp]    pański    pańskiego    pańskiemu    pańskiego    pańskim    pańskim    pański
[Lm]    pańscy pańskich pańskim pańskich pańskimi pańskich pańscy

Pan jest.
Pana nie ma.
Rozmawiam z panem.

Pana syn jest.
Pana syna nie ma.
Rozmawiam z pana synem.


Pański syn jest.
Pańskiego syna nie ma.
Rozmawiam z pańskim synem.


----------



## Panceltic

You are right, the possessive pronouns _pana_, _pani_ and _państwa_ are indeclinable. They function the same way as _jego_, _jej_ and _ich_.

Alternatively, you can use _pański_ instead of _pana_, and this is a regular adjective (_pańskiego_, _pańskiemu_ ...).


----------



## Ben Jamin

"Pański" is more  formal and less used than "pana". Truly it is also less used by young people than elderly ones,  and quite unsurprising more often found in writing than in colloquial use.


----------



## kknd

Ben Jamin said:


> "Pański" is more  formal and less used than "pana". Truly it is also less used by young people than elderly ones,  and quite unsurprising more often found in writing than in colloquial use.


Am I already old? 🤔 Probably old enough then! 😅

Iʼd say that „Porozmawiam z Pana synem” can be more neutral than „Porozmawiam z Pańskim synem” which might have some stern and scolding overtones in it… 😶


----------



## zaffy

kknd said:


> ʼd say that „Porozmawiam z Pana synem” can be more neutral than „Porozmawiam z Pańskim synem” which might have some stern and scolding overtones in it


I get it the same way.


----------



## Ben Jamin

kknd said:


> Am I already old? 🤔 Probably old enough then! 😅
> 
> Iʼd say that „Porozmawiam z Pana synem” can be more neutral than „Porozmawiam z Pańskim synem” which might have some stern and scolding overtones in it… 😶


It is surprising for me. I would never guess that anybody could interprete it this way. But language changes, and "niedźwiedzia przysługa" is now understood as a good deed, while "dobroduszny" is perceived as "stupid". By the way, in Norway using full stop  in SMS is perceived as hostile.


----------



## PA_System

Ben Jamin said:


> and "niedźwiedzia przysługa" is now understood as a good deed, while "dobroduszny" is perceived as "stupid".


By who? Could you give some examples?


Ben Jamin said:


> By the way, in Norway using full stop in SMS is perceived as hostile.


In Poland by some people too; it's referred to as "the period of hatred". I don't see it that way, though.


----------



## Ben Jamin

PA_System said:


> By who? Could you give some examples?


I have no scientific articles on this matter. I have read about it in general press. It refers to the "young generation". By the way, the same idiom was used in Norway, and the understanding of it has also changed the same way.


----------

