# Catalan vs. Spanish: Which is easier for you?



## vikramkr

Hello:

This question is primarily directed towards those who do not have Spanish or Catalan as their native language: Have you found Catalan to be easier to learn than Spanish, or vice versa?

Thanks,

Vikram


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## Dixie!

I'm waiting for someone to mention _weak pronouns _


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## sound shift

Ah, yes, I was just about to mention Catalan weak pronouns. When I lived in Tarragona I never really got on top of them. Often when two pronouns are adjacent, contracted forms involving apostrophes are required; I find these difficult. I think the Castilian equivalents are easier.

Another problem was knowing if the Catalan of the native speakers was correct: there were plenty of "castellanismes" about at the time, though of course you shouldn't encounter any if you learn Catalan from a book.

Back then, there was not much good-quality material for the study of Catalan on the market, but I believe the situation has improved.

I find Catalan a little easier to pronounce than Castilian: I think the vocal organs are less tense.


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## Outsider

sound shift said:


> I find Catalan a little easier to pronounce than Castilian: I think the vocal organs are less tense.


Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Catalan (in some of its dialects) reduces many unstressed vowels to schwas, like English.


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## louhevly

I've never really learned Spanish well, but I do know that its always pronounced exactly the same as it is spelled. Obviously this makes understanding, reading and writing it much easier. However, it does take a conscious effort not to reduce non-accented vowel sounds to schwas.

Catalan spelling, especially when combining weak pronouns, is tricky.

Spanish verb conjugation, especially when expressing the simple past, is much more difficult than the Catalan, in which we can use the "perifràstic" form.

Lou


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## sound shift

... The "perifràstic" form ... such as "*va jugar *malament" - that type of construction?


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## louhevly

sound shift said:


> ... The "perifràstic" form ... such as "*va jugar *malament" - that type of construction?



Yes.  I should have probably said "pretèrit perifràstic", since Catalan has many perifràstic forms.

Lou


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## Tajabone

Oddly enough, I started to be more fluent in Catalan (Majorcan) than in Spanish and this is due to two personal factors: French was one of my native languages (it's a long story ...) and having grown up in a Berber area, learning languages oraly became an ordinary and easy task to achieve.

So, I understand very well Catalan (whether from Balears or from Catalunya) but due to lack of time, writing in this language is still on progress (while it's much easier to do so in Spanish).

To me, it appears that Catalan has many complex writing rules and the motivation is not purely scientific. I had the same case with an unified Berber where rules where establish just to "differ" from the Arabic background, considered as too close (and to close, according to some linguistis/politicians). By the way, many Berber linguists are in connection with some Catalan linguists ...

I stop this theme because I know how sensitive it is. It just a pity for one thing: learners will pay the price for such changing rules.

A last point: I speak Majorcan but I'm not allowed to write it because of the Catalan institutions in charge of Política Lingüística


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## ajohan

Personally, I find Catalan much more difficult probably because I have a degree in Spanish and could speak it before I even arrived here. Most of my mistakes are caused by interference from Spanish and lack of practice.
Weak pronouns, accents, spelling almost everything actually.The only thing I think I'm pretty good at is avoiding "barbarismes" like "tens que", "vindre", "tindre" and so on because I had them drilled into my head by my Catalan teachers at a time when Nuñez and Gaspart were on telly every day destroying the beautiful language.


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## Dixie!

ajohan said:


> Weak pronouns, accents, spelling almost everything actually.The only thing I think I'm pretty good at is avoiding "barbarismes" like "tens que", "vindre", "tindre" and so on [...]



I'm sorry Ajohan, I don't think _vindre_ or _tindre_ are "barbarismes", they just belong to another variety of Catalan, for instance the variety spoken in my area, where everyone uses them: "Has de vindre a vore això".


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## ajohan

Well in English I tend to believe in descriptive grammar. That is to say that when something is very widely used, only language purists and prescriptive gramamrians would argue that they are wrong.
But go to any Catalan language class in the Barcelona area (including those that prepare you for the Junta Permanent exams) and you'll be given handouts of terms to avoid. Usually, 'vindre', 'tindre', 'sapiguer' and a few others are fairly high on the list.
Any more thoughts folks?


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## Dixie!

ajohan said:


> But go to any Catalan language class in the Barcelona area (including those that prepare you for the Junta Permanent exams) and you'll be given handouts of terms to avoid. Usually, 'vindre', 'tindre', 'sapiguer' and a few others are fairly high on the list.
> Any more thoughts folks?



_Sapiguer _is obviously incorrect. What they ask you in those exams you mention is to use the standard variety of the language. I guess "vindre" and "tindre" are not included in it. I'm not sure, though. I thought they were totally correct.


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## panjabigator

Dixie! said:


> I'm sorry Ajohan, I don't think _vindre_ or _tindre_ are "barbarismes", they just belong to another variety of Catalan, for instance the variety spoken in my area, where everyone uses them: "Has de vindre a vore això".




Well then I have been using the wrong words.

Spanish is many times the easier of the two for me.  It´s simple; I have spoken Spanish for eight years and have achieved a good level of fluency in it.  I have really only spent a semester learning Catalan officially, and the rest of the time is just through various questions on articles I peruse here and there.  

Catalan is a bit perplexing right now for several reasons:
1) I don't have the vocab base, so I opt for the Barbarismes (check the resource page for a list of terms to "avoid").
2) I don't know all the verbs yet.
3) I kind of know all the tenses, but not well enough.
4) Where the hell am I to find a Catalan speaker to chat with?

Catalan _should_ be easier because there are several sounds which we English speakers do very well; namely the schwa.  But, I am sometimes stuck in a Spanish mentality which is hard to break.  I'll have more to report after my 5 month trip to Catalunya is starts!

Fins aviat.


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## panjabigator

vikramkr said:


> Hello:
> 
> This question is primarily directed towards those who do not have Spanish or Catalan as their native language: Have you found Catalan to be easier to learn than Spanish, or vice versa?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Vikram



I realized I didn't address your question too well.  

Catalan has been easier to learn than Spanish because I am now VERY familiar with the grammar and vocab.  Romance language speakers, especially Iberian language speakers, have a head start.


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## ajohan

I've seen you guys have already had a little thread about this and Betulina says that 'tindre' and 'vindre' are OK with a link to prove it.
http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-256%20%253C/t-226486.html


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## louhevly

ajohan said:


> Well in English I tend to believe in descriptive grammar. That is to say that when something is very widely used, only language purists and prescriptive gramamrians would argue that they are wrong.
> But go to any Catalan language class in the Barcelona area (including those that prepare you for the Junta Permanent exams) and you'll be given handouts of terms to avoid. Usually, 'vindre', 'tindre', 'sapiguer' and a few others are fairly high on the list.
> Any more thoughts folks?



Descriptivism means something different in monolingual i multilingual societies. Englishisms such as "parquear el carro", "mi jefe es muy cheapo" are widely used in many Spanish-speaking communities in the US, but most native Spanish speakers would consider them wrong. "Ahora vengo" (in response to "Ven!") is also quite commonly heard in Catalonia, something that must have somewhat surprised you, true?

Many Catalans are sensitive to Spanish-influenced innovations because there are no longer any monolingual Catalans.  Englishisms and Catalanisms aren't particulary threatening to the Spanish language because there are still regions where monolingual Spaniards speak their language without significant outside influence. This isn't true of Catalan.

Lou


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## ernest_

Tajabone said:


> To me, it appears that Catalan has many complex writing rules and the motivation is not purely scientific. I had the same case with an unified Berber where rules where establish just to "differ" from the Arabic background, considered as too close (and to close, according to some linguistis/politicians). By the way, many Berber linguists are in connection with some Catalan linguists ...
> 
> I stop this theme because I know how sensitive it is. It just a pity for one thing: learners will pay the price for such changing rules.



Excuse me, what changing rules? As far as I know, Catalan spelling and grammar were established in the early 20th century and have changed little since then. You must be thinking of something else, otherwise I do not understand.

And this Berber connection, I think you are wee bit out of order here, mate. Are you suggesting that somehow a bunch of mad linguists with a hidden agenda have pushed a spelling system with overly complicated rules? Because that's what I understand and quite honestly if that's what you are saying I think that you've completely lost the plot. Catalan orthography isn't much more complicated than that of Spanish. It has basically the same alphabet and orthographic rules with few variations, which are often systematic changes thus very easy to remember (think of the cluster "mb", which in Catalan becomes "nv", or the plural ending "as" that in Catalan becomes "es"). Of course it cannot be exactly the same because both languages have different needs and we need to differentiate sounds that do not exist in Spanish. Then we have contractions too that require additional rules, whereas Spanish have not. But other than that, it is as simple as it can be. Anyway, it's not like the spelling is the first worry when you learn a foreign language, unless you had to learn a whole new different alphabet, which is not the case.


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## ampurdan

I'm sorry but the question of this thread has no room in this forum. This kind of question has been raised from time to time in one forum or another in Wordreference, leading to no clear conclusion. Languages are easier or tougher depending on the linguistic and personal background. It's not a linguistic question, but a question about personal issues.

Therefore, this thread is closed.

ampurdan (moderator)


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