# nègre (usage c.1900)



## wendybend

When Rimbaud (late 1800's) was using the word "negre" in his poetry, was it considered perjorative at that time?  In other words, would it be equivalent to 'nigger' or more equivalent to the use of 'negro' at that time in the US?  One poetic translation of 'negre' uses the word 'savage.'  Did 'negre' have more the idea of 'savage' (meaning 'untamed' and/or 'wild') back then?   I know that it is a deragotory term in 2007, but I am referring to its usage in the 1800's.  Merci beaucoup, tout le monde.  On peut me repondre en francais; c'est seulement pour utiliser le mot 'nigger' que j'ai demande en anglais.


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## mgarizona

Interesting question. To add to the discussion I would suggest you take a look at this note regarding the words _noir_ and _nègre_ from the _Littré_, which was published about the time Rimbaud was writing:

NÈGRE, NOIR. _Quand les Portugais découvrirent la côte occidentale de l'Afrique, ils donnèrent aux peuples noirs qui l'habitent le nom de negro, qui signifie noir. De là vient notre mot nègre. L'usage a gardé quelque chose de cette origine. Tandis que noir se rapporte à la couleur, nègre se rapporte aussi au pays ; et l'on dit plutôt les nègres, en parlant des habitants de la côte occidentale d'Afrique que les noirs._


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## polaire

It is an interesting question, and I look forward to the responses.

I would,  however use "n-word," or if you must spell it out, indicate that it's offensive by using this .



In French, a ghostwriter is called "un nègre."  African Americans tend to find this expression _*extremely offensive.*_  When French people say that it only denotes a hard-working person, they fail to realize that the expression in English is "to work like an n-word."

But then again, I'll see a reference to "L'Art nègre" and I don't think it's intended to mean the n-word.

There may have been some threads on this already.


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## mgarizona

A quick look at _Mauvais Sang_ shows that Rimbaud's use of _nègre_ has little to do with color and everything to do with non-Europeanism (if I may)

He equates being a _nègre_ with 'not being of this people,' 'never having been a Christian,' having no sense of morality, being a 'brute,' a 'beast.

Then the talk of _faux nègres_ complicates it all the more.

I'm not at all sure how I would handle it if I were to take on such a daunting task, but I can certainly understand why 'savage'--- in its sense of 'member of a primitive tribe'--- would be a logical option.


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## polaire

mgarizona said:


> A quick look at _Mauvais Sang_ shows that Rimbaud's use of _nègre_ has little to do with color and everything to do with non-Europeanism (if I may)
> 
> He equates being a _nègre_ with 'not being of this people,' 'never having been a Christian,' having no sense of morality, being a 'brute,' a 'beast.
> 
> Then the talk of _faux nègres_ complicates it all the more.
> 
> I'm not at all sure how I would handle it if I were to take on such a daunting task, but I can certainly understand why 'savage'--- in its sense of 'member of a primitive tribe'--- would be a logical option.



Interesting.  When Verlaine (Rimbaud's associate) uses the phrase "nègre fou" in _Art Poétique_ it's hard to read it as anything other than racist.


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## wendybend

I think it's important to know that the 'negre' in question is indeed black.  Whether or not Rimbaud intended racism, a reference to an unenlightened spiritual state, or to a coarse primitivism (and he probably meant all of these on some level), there is something lost in the translation of 'negre' as 'savage.'    It's still problematic for me if, had he been writing in English, would he have used 'negro' or the other word?  In English, this difference would matter enormously.  

I apologize for the use of a racial slur in the context of a public forum.  It just never occurred to me that it was a red flag since I was inquiring about the word itself.   Je regrette.

Merci!


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## Michael-78

A l'époque ça n'avais pas le même sens que maintenant. Ce n'étais _pas du tout_ péjoratif ! 
Ce n'était pas plus péjoratif que de dire un américain...


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## polaire

wendybend said:


> I think it's important to know that the 'negre' in question is indeed black.  Whether or not Rimbaud intended racism, a reference to an unenlightened spiritual state, or to a coarse primitivism (and he probably meant all of these on some level), there is something lost in the translation of 'negre' as 'savage.'    It's still problematic for me if, had he been writing in English, would he have used 'negro' or the other word?  In English, this difference would matter enormously.
> 
> I apologize for the use of a racial slur in the context of a public forum.  It just never occurred to me that it was a red flag since I was inquiring about the word itself.   Je regrette.
> 
> Merci!



Thank you, no problem.  It's understood that in a foreign language forum people sometimes have to spell out words that are offensive in order to make themselves understood.  But it's recommended that those words be marked as offensive.


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## polgara

Est-ce que "blackamoor" ne serait pas équivalent à "nègre", ici ?


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## wendybend

'blackamoor' is archaic English.  I actually had to look it up!


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## polgara

wendybend said:


> 'blackamoor' is archaic English.  I actually had to look it up!



Oui, c'est pour ça que je l'ai proposé, parce que cet usage de "nègre" est archaïque aussi.


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## polaire

polgara said:


> Est-ce que "blackamoor" ne serait pas équivalent à "nègre", ici ?



It means a person of African orgin. Othello, you may remember, was a "Moor."

Unlike some translations of "nègre", however, "blackamoor" is archaic, even laughable.


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## wendybend

I am coming to the realization what a touchy (sensitif) subject this is.  I think the most appropriate translation is indeed 'negro;' however, it is such a flashpoint term that I think most translators have shied away from using it.  It opens up a whole new can of worms - ca donne plus de difficultes meme si l'on le traduit, en anglais, comme 'negro' plutot que 'savage,' etc.  Still, the language becomes a bit diminished as a result, n'est-ce pas?


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## archijacq

Rimbaud: "Une saison en enfer, livre païen, livre nègre"

"Nègre" renvoie métaphoriquement surtout à damnation, révolte, noirceur d'âme, opposition bien/mal (noir/blanc), primitivisme


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## wendybend

comme adjectif, et en francais.  Pas en anglais....


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## wendybend

alor, negre vs noir?  est 'negre' utilise courament en francais?  pour n'importe quoi?


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## polaire

wendybend said:


> I am coming to the realization what a touchy (sensitif) subject this is.  I think the most appropriate translation is indeed 'negro;' however, it is such a flashpoint term that I think most translators have shied away from using it.  It opens up a whole new can of worms - ca donne plus de difficultes meme si l'on le traduit, en anglais, comme 'negro' plutot que 'savage,' etc.  Still, the language becomes a bit diminished as a result, n'est-ce pas?



If one is translating a 19th century text, I don't think there's anything wrong with using "Negro."  One might want to drop a footnote explaining the translation options, or a bit of the history.  If you are trying to achieve a more modern tone, you might select something different, because most people of African origin don't refer to themselves as "Negroes" today.  (Capitalizing the word is an issue, by the way.  White southerners refused to capitalize "Negro" well into very late 20th century.  It was meant as an insult, along with calling grown men "Boy.").

When one is talking about racist, sexist language, no, I don't think that language is "diminished" when people select better options.  To give one of many possible examples, calling women "authoresses" and "poetesses" instead of "authors" and "poets," diminished *women*, not the language.

Some people have had to live in "the can of worms" that is racism for centuries.  Now more people have to be "sensitive" about it.  That's a good thing.


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## Arrius

In Ferdinand Oyono's "Le vieux *nègre* et la médaille" (1956), written by a black African, the hero of the title is in all respects a worthy man in contrast to the French Catholic missionary, depicted as a bigoted and intolerant _salaud. _There is absolutely no disrespect intended here to the suffering old man by the use of the "N-word". It is a recommendable read:
http://www.ecoles.cfwb.be/ARIZEL/Robin/Fiches2005/page1.htm


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## polaire

Arrius said:


> In Ferdinand Oyono's "Le vieux *nègre* et la médaille" (1956), written by a black African, the hero of the title is in all respects a worthy man in contrast to the French Catholic missionary, depicted as a bigoted and intolerant _salaud. _There is absolutely no disrespect intended here to the suffering old man by the use of the "N-word". It is a recommendable read:
> http://www.ecoles.cfwb.be/ARIZEL/Robin/Fiches2005/page1.htm




I'm not talking about rewriting books, but recognizing racism of the past and not perpetuating it unnecessarily into the future.  The "N-word" is used throughout "Huckleberry Finn."  It's a great novel about American racism.  There's a purpose for the offensiveness (although many people thought that Twain himself was racist until long after his death.).


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## Arrius

The original question was whether nègre in French is/was offensive. Its use by a black African writer would tend to indicate that it is not offensive like its English equivalents, and I would further point out that the use ot the related word word "négritude" by the intelligentsia of francophone West Africa to express _with pride_ the idea of African cultural identity is rather significant. It is also not without significance that the above-mentioned novel "Le vieux nègre et la médaille" is rendered into English by "The Old_ Man_ and the Medal_"._


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## wendybend

"Negro" was the common word used in the United States up until the 1960's-1970's, both by whites, and blacks to refer to themselves.  During the civil rights movement, 'negro' became derogatory in favor of 'black' (used as both adjective and noun).  The nastier 'n' word has always been an insult.  Currently, 'negro' is also a (lesser) insult.  This may not be true in other English-speaking countries


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## tilt

wendybend said:


> alor, negre vs noir?  est 'negre' utilise courament en francais?  pour n'importe quoi?


_Nègre _wasn't offensive in the old days, in the same way as racism didn't exist.
Have you ever read _Tintin in Congo_? Africans are shown as kind little savages, nearly stupid, who are lucky to get civilization from white people. Though it cannot be said racism. When Hergé drew this story, it was nothing but normal. The concept of being racist appeared later, and it's interesting to notice that cartoons where made from all the Tintin's albums, except this one.

Nowdays, _nègre _is offensive except in some expressions as _art nègre_, already mentioned.


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## Arrius

Although I still enjoy his Tintin stories. Hergé was insensitive in the extreme: in one of them Tintin kicks an Arab in the buttocks whilst he is prostrating himself in prayer. That one is still reprinted, I believe.


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## AlistairCookie

wendybend said:


> When Rimbaud (late 1800's) was using the word "negre" in his poetry, was it considered perjorative at that time?


It's not even pejorative now, in at least one context that I know of.

Parler le petit negre...I would never use it, but I have heard French people of all races use it. Happened in my English class just last year, a woman from Senegal used it when talking about her inability to speak English.


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## Moon Palace

tilt said:


> _Nègre _wasn't offensive in the old days, in the same way as racism didn't exist.
> Nowdays, _nègre _is offensive except in some expressions as _art nègre_, already mentioned.



I agree with you, Tilt, the only thing I would qualify is the existence of racism. I think it did exist but was not perceived as such, in the same way as we have opened our eyes on paedophilia. The superiority of the *white man* was seen as part of the established order in those days. So I too would keep 'nègre' to stick with Rimbaud's time and customs.


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## Moon Palace

AlistairCookie said:


> Parler le petit negre...I would never use it, but I have heard French people of all races use it. Happened in my English class just last year, a woman from Senegal used it when talking about her inability to speak English.



Well, _parler le petit nègre_ is very disparaging for the person you are talking about, and in that way it is derogatory for African people. I would think this woman was self-deprecatory for the least.


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## AlistairCookie

regardless, it is a word that is not even CLOSE to being as sensitive as the N-bomb in American English.

All alone maybe, but the expression _parler le petit..._ does not cause anyone to even bat an eye when it is said.


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## tilt

Moon Palace said:


> I agree with you, Tilt, the only thing I would qualify is the existence of racism. I think* it did exist but was not perceived as such*, in the same way as we have opened our eyes on paedophilia.


Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Sorry if I didn't find the good words to make my speech clearer.


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## tilt

AlistairCookie said:


> regardless, it is a word that is not even CLOSE to being as sensitive as the N-bomb in American English.


As far as I know, _negro _is still used in some expressionsas _negro spirituals _without being offensive. In fact, it's not the world itself but the way it is used which makes it offensive. For example, I don't think anyone would feel offensed by reading this thread!
Though, I find this reserve about writing the world entirely rather absurd.


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## AlistairCookie

tilt said:


> As far as I know, _negro _is still used in some expressions as _*like *negro spirituals _without being offensive. In fact, it's not the world itself but the way it is used which makes it offensive. For example, I don't think anyone would feel offensed  offended by reading this thread!
> Though, I find this reserve about writing the world entirely rather absurd.


Negro is not the word I was referring to as the "n-bomb", 

The one with 2 "G"s is and it is without a doubt the most highly charged word there is in American English.

I don't think you would think it so absurd to not write out the word nigg--, were you an American though I would share your feeling of thinking it absurd were anyone offended by this thread.


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## wendybend

"Negro spirituals" is used because they were begun / developed during the time period and culture of slavery.  "Negro" is the correct word to use when referring to those times, most mostly only as an adjectif.  I, too, think the n-word isn't offensive when spelled out IF you are speaking, as we are here, about its origin / usage.  As for the n-word being the most offensive in American English, I, as a woman, would disagree.  How about the c-word?  It's right beside the n-word.    Just to let you know how times have indeed changed, I was recently in Beaufort, South Carolina way out on the backroads.  A man in his 70's, working on a construction crew (yes, he was in his 70's because he told us!), politely approached my car to help with directions.  We fell to talking about "Forrest Gump," filmed in that area.  He said casually, "Oh, Tom Hanks is ok as an actor.  But those blacks, all of them can act so natural!"  [sic]   Thus, in one sentence, he displayed how ingrained it is, even for his generation which grew up using 'negro,' to use 'black' instead -- but also displayed racism in that he labeled 'all blacks' as being able to act more naturally than their white counterparts.  My 17-year-old daughter, in the backseat, was horrified as we pulled away, because this was the first instance, for her as a Northern gal, of actually encountering it.  This was a gentle instance, but still.

All this aside, I appreciate everyone's comments to my original post.  It has been a most informative two days!


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## tilt

Well, all I can say is that in my opinion, writing or saying _n-word_ or _nigger _is just the same. It makes me think about my kids, who sometimes say "_t'es qu'un C.O.N._". I explained them that spelling it doesn't make it more polite.

Thanks you all for this very interresting thread.


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## Arrius

After centuries of white domination and many years of resistance to racial prejudice on the part of the oppressed race, the slowly healing wounds from the struggle are still so sore, that those formerly oppressed have become (understandably) hypersensitive and one hesitates to use any word including African, native, indigenous, black (which latter term, used by themselves, seems, or seemed, incongruously to include people of the aforementioned ethnicity who look like Europeans with a slight sun-tan), or what you will. And it is quite difficult to keep abreast of what might still be a universally acceptable term, if such there be, as the fashion continually changes. It is highly regrettable that such a discussion should be deemed to be necessary, as it admittedly is, so long after the collapse of South African apartheid and in view of the prospect of an African-American (I think that's currently O.K.) president. The situation is linguistically and socially more delicate in anglophone countries than it is ,say, in Spain, where Spaniards black up their faces to enact mock battles between Christians and Moors or to look like one of the highly revered magi in the procession at _Reyes_ (Balthazar, I think), without any malice in mind or desire to denigrate the African, and "Hola, morena!" (Hi,brown girl!- i.e. with dark hair and/or skin) is a compliment.


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## AlistairCookie

tilt said:


> Well, all I can say is that in my opinion, writing or saying _n-word_ or _nigger _is just the same. It makes me think about my kids, who sometimes say "_t'es qu'un C.O.N._". I explained them that spelling it doesn't make it more polite.
> 
> Thanks you all for this very interresting thread.


trust me, n-g-er is much more offensive than con.


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## tilt

AlistairCookie said:


> trust me, n-g-er is much more offensive than con.


I never meant the contrary... And my kids sometimes do this with much more offensive words (when they think I don't hear them ).

Anyway, I hope you understood what I wanted to say.


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## anangelaway

Bonjour wendybend, 

Voici un article intéressant, dans lequel l'on retrouve quelques explications sur le sujet - Négritude et poétique. 



> La lecture de Rimbaud vient conforter cette visée. Le propos de ce dernier discours est un modèle argumentatif. Pour Senghor, en effet, Rimbaud est de tous les poètes celui qui voulait être nègre et l’était dans sa poésie [11]. Dans _Une saison en enfer_ datée de 1889, comme se plaît à le rappeler Senghor, Rimbaud avait proclamé face aux lecteurs européens sa volonté de se faire nègre, primitif, sauvage :


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## wendybend

Merci, anangelaway,

Cet article m'a beaucoup aide a comprendre ce que voulait dire Rimbaud en utilisant le mot 'negre' dans sa poesie -- que le sens de ce mot, pour lui, n'etait pas pejoratif -- au contraire.  

Quote: (a la fin de l'article)

"La Négritude apparaît ainsi comme le fondement de toute poétique. Puisqu’il est admis désormais que l’Afrique est le berceau de toute l’humanité, il est logique d’admettre aussi qu’elle soit le berceau de toute poétique, c’est-à-dire de toute création esthétique."

Logique interessante....


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## polaire

Arrius said:


> The original question was whether nègre in French is/was offensive. I*ts use by a black African writer would tend to indicate that it is not offensive like its English equivalents, *and I would further point out that the use ot the related word word "négritude" by the intelligentsia of francophone West Africa to express _with pride_ the idea of African cultural identity is rather significant. It is also not without significance that the above-mentioned novel "Le vieux nègre et la médaille" is rendered into English by "The Old_ Man_ and the Medal_"._



That's not necessarily the case.  Sometimes words are used deliberately to shock.  There's a 19th Century American novel called "Our Nig."  It was written by an African American woman.  She used the term to make a point about how she and other black people were regarded.


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## polaire

AlistairCookie said:


> trust me, n-g-er is much more offensive than con.




It certainly is.


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## wendybend

Thank you, Polaire.  That's all I was trying to do in my original post, find out if Rimbaud was being racist for his time.  It now apears not.  

I want to apologize again for my use of words without an identifying 'offensive' mark which I didnt' even know existed until I began posting here.  I am a first-timer, guys, and meant nothing offensive by my inquiry into the usage of certain words.  These words are fraught with emotional connotations, as evidenced here.  What better place than a language forum for a frank discussion of these volatile terms?


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## mgarizona

NOTE: If you need your language pre-sanitized, don't read this posting. Thank you.


I have no interest in general discussions of what does or does not constitute civilized discourse. I'm not interested in civilized discourse. I'm interested in Poetry.

I pulled out the various translations of Rimbaud on my shelves and, looking only at _Mauvais Sang_, I find that Oliver Bernard and Enid Rhodes Peschel use 'negro' while Paul Schmidt, Bertrand Mathieu and Wyatt Mason use 'nigger.' (Can't seem to find my old Louise Varèse or Wallace Fowlie, sorry.)

I have to say that, as poetry, the text reads much better with 'nigger' than with 'negro.' The radicality of Rimbaud's desire to deny his Europeanness shines through. It occurs to me that after a century (plus) in which notions of 'white supremacy' have for the most part fallen by the wayside--- as opposed to in Rimbaud's day when they were considered obvious truths--- we need the shock of 'nigger' for the proper effect.

In Rimbaud's day there were no Brels wishing they had _l'élégance d'être nègre_, nor Lou Reeds singing "I Wanna Be Black." Today large swaths of the white youth in America seek to ape as much hip-hop culture as they can get away with. In that enviroment, to translate _Je suis nègre_, as 'I am a negro'--- not even 'I am a black man'--- is tantamount to saying 'I am an Uncle Tom.' It's the OPPOSITE of radical. It's staid.

Rimbaud WAS a racist. He hated white people. The "Bad Blood" is European blood. I note sadly that none of the translators who used 'nigger' to translate _nègre_ used a pejorative to translate _Les blancs_. (Mason does use a simple "Whites" which is at least somewhat taunting.)

I saw Patti Smith on the television recently singing "Rock n' Roll Nigger." Two-thirds of the song were bleeps. I can't help thinking Rimbaud would have loved it.


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## wendybend

New question:  someone just e-mailed me  --  " in colloquial
French these days a black person most often referred to as 'un black.'"
C'est vrai?  Merci!


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## ob1

wendybend said:


> New question: someone just e-mailed me -- " in colloquial
> French these days a black person most often referred to as 'un black.'"
> C'est vrai? Merci!


 
Yes it's the new politically correct form of "un homme de couleur"


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## tilt

ob1 said:


> Yes it's the new politically correct form of "un homme de couleur"


I wouldn't say that.
_Black _is a word comming from the street, just like _Beur_. It became popular enough to be used even on medias and by politicians, but it doesn't have this politically correct dimension.

About _homme de couleur_, I must say that it has been politically correct but it's not anymore, since black people pointed out the fact that white ones aren't less colourful than them (and how much right they are).
There's a text passing around on the francophone net for already several years, which is a good illustration of what I say:

_Quand je suis né, j'étais noir.
Quand j'ai grandi, j'étais noir.
Quand j'ai peur, je suis noir.
Quand je vais au soleil, je suis noir.
Quand je suis malade, je suis noir.

Tandis que toi "homme blanc"
Quand tu es né, tu étais rose,
Quand tu as grandi, tu es devenu blanc,
Quand tu vas au soleil, tu deviens rouge,
Quand tu as froid, tu deviens bleu,
Quand tu as peur, tu deviens vert,
Quand tu es malade, tu deviens jaune,
et après ça tu as le toupet de m'appeler:_ _"Homme de couleurs"_

(The one who wrote that had undoubtly well-meant, but he's wrong anyway because black people do change their skin color according to their age, health or emotions, just like white ones).


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## Denis the fatalist

Apart the famous four-letter words and the kind, a word is not offensive by itself, its the idea you put in which is, or not. But as usual hiding the word meant hiding the problem - we've got so many evidences of it nowadays, it turned out to be wise governance ! 

At the beginning here in deep France I think, many people had not thought out to be racist or not, they merely could not manage the black representation in their minds. I was told about the arrival during WW1 of black soldiers in the not that remote small town of Avallon. The locals had merely remained their mouth wide open...
Meanwhile in Paris the name of Josephine baker's "La revue nègre" (circa 1920 ?) was not offensive at all, and the artistic world freeely used the word "nègre" and even spoke about "Art nègre" before black representatives. The importance of France in Jazz history is commonly explained by the fact that the american Jazzmen, together with the black soldiers of WW1, were stuck when discovering a world where racism was not always the everyday's rule - and not only while performing assault or music. Still they were called "nègres" at that time... 

Someone, higher here, spoke about Senghor, a great french-writing speaker and thinker who insisted on "negritude". I would underline that just as for "niggar" in the USA, several local black people in France began at different times to claim for this name, and say that they were proud about it. 

As for "the old man and the medal", it's clearly borowed by the translator from hemingway's "old man and the sea". Beati pauperes spiritu, and long life to the sales curve.


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## polaire

Arrius said:


> I mean, *polaire*, that, at this late hour, it is a tragedy that we still have to talk like this and that it is too soon to forget about the superficial physical differences of our fellow human beings, though I think people from all groups are increasingly managing this.
> Having, mostly happily, spent ten years in various independent African countries, I can assure you too that racial prejudice is not entirely confined to the Whites, though to many it would be heresy to say so, and I do have some experience of it on the receiving end which much increases my ability to empathise.
> By _hypersensitivity_ I meant that many people of whichever race tend to anticipate or look for trouble often where none is intended, and it is very easy to offend without wanting to.



Thank you, I get your point.  But asking that people realize the "N-word" is offensive is not an example of "hypersensitivity."


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## faranji

Out of curiosity, what's the usual French translation of Conrad's _The Nigger of the 'Narcissus'_?


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## polaire

faranji said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the usual French translation of Conrad's _The Nigger of the 'Narcissus'_?



_Le Nègre du "Narcisse"

_ Joseph Conrad - Wikipédia

The title always makes me wince.  But I wouldn't suggest renaming it.  I haven't read this book, but I still recall how upset I was as a teenager reading "Heart of Darkness," which presents Africans as brutal beasts.  The only thing different now is that black people and others complain about it.


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## faranji

The portrayal of white Europeans in _Heart of Darkness_ is hardly any more flattering than that of natives. In fact, that was the main point of the story.


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## Arrius

In Conrad's day the word n*gg*r was applied to any dark-skinned person not just Africans, and a n*gg*r-driver (negrero, still used in modern Spanish, where we would now say slave-driver) for a white foreman who exploited his native workers to the full.


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## CulSec

Pour les gens dans les États-Unis on ne utiliser pas le mot <negro>.  Plutôt, on utilise maintenant le mot <black>.  Il y a 30 ans on pouvais utiliser <negro> sans problème.  Donc, aujourd'hui en France quel mot est-il la plus politiquement correct?  Ou est-il une différence?

Désole pour ma grammaire pauvre mais je serais sensible pour des reponses à cette question... Merci.


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## tilt

En français, tout au moins en France, le mot _nègre_ est très péjoratif et n'est employé que par des gens ouvertement racistes.

De nos jours, on dit un _Noir_, comme on dit un _Blanc_, tout simplement.


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## CulSec

Merci beaucoup.  Je fais mes devoirs à sujet du film <<Rue Cases Nègres>> et à cause de l'age et le epoque de ce film j'étais confus totalement!


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## Fred_C

tilt said:


> En français, tout au moins en France, le mot _nègre_ est très péjoratif et n'est employé que par des gens ouvertement racistes.
> 
> De nos jours, on dit un _Noir_, comme on dit un _Blanc_, tout simplement.


 Bonjour.
Très paradoxalement, le mot "nègre" n'est devenu affreusement raciste que très récemment.
J'ai de très bonnes raisons de croire qu'avant 1970, c'était encore un terme à peu près normal.
(Entendu dans des films, lu dans des livres, etc...)


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## tilt

Fred_C said:


> Bonjour.
> Très paradoxalement, le mot "nègre" n'est devenu affreusement raciste que très récemment.
> J'ai de très bonnes raisons de croire qu'avant 1970, c'était encore un terme à peu près normal.
> (Entendu dans des films, lu dans des livres, etc...)


_Nègre _est défini comme un "nom odieux" par Victor Hugo, en 1826 ! Il oppose ce terme, avec _mulâtre_, à _noir _et _homme de couleur_, jugés acceptables_. _Le mot a longtemps été courant, certes, mais essentiellement dans la bouche de ceux qui avaient une piètre opinion des Noirs, d'où la connotation raciste et donc préjorative. 
Aujourd'hui, _nègre_ aurait au contraire tendance à retrouver petit à petit une connotation neutre, depuis que des expressions comme _art nègre _ou _négritude _sont passées dans le langage courant.

(source: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/n%C3%A8gre)


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## queenie10

I'm trying to translate Chamoiseau's 'Une enfance créole' in which he often uses the 'nègre' - 'vieux-nègre', 'négrillon', 'négresse'. Since Chamoiseau himself is black he is evidently not racist, but I wonder if he uses these terms because it is what is naturally used among black people or because it _is _racist and is putting the words of a white person into his mouth ironically or to shock. In some cases, like 'négresse', talking about his mother, it seems complimetary, or at least not at all pejorative, but at other times 'nègre' seems to shock in French. I am not sure whether to read his use of this term as ironic and therefore translate it as 'Negro', trying to convey the borrowing of an offense term, or to find something which could be used offensively but in the context of a black person speaking about black people would not be considered racist.

Looking at the Caribbean English Dictionary tells me that black is predominantly an American term and not used frequently in the Caribbean where skin colour is distinguished, i.e. not all black people are 'black'. The dictionary proposes both 'nigger' and 'niggerman' as terms used pejoratively/jokingly/neutrally among friends but I would like to know if this would shock Anglophone readers as much as it shocks me to write it. And was this Chamoiseau's point? If there is irony here I don't want to miss it.


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## Stephane_G

Bonjour,

En 1900, le mot nègre n'était pas du tout péjoratif et ce jusqu'au milieu du XX siècle. Par exemple, je vous invite à regarder ce lien d'une exposition de 1966 http://www.lexpress.fr/medias/459/affiche-l-art-negre-sources-evolution-expansion-dakar-paris_435.jpg
Cependant, avec le temps et actuellement, l'usage de "nègre" pour désigner une personne dont la peau est noir est devenu très péjoratif et raciste. Toutefois, j'ai discuté avec une personne de 80 ans récemment qui parlait "des nègres" sans aucune pensées péjorative.


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## Viobi

Même les "arts nègres" sont aujourd'hui appelés "arts premiers"... Alexandre  Dumas referred to his mother as "une mulâtresse", it wasn't offensive for him. Victor Hugo _was _ahead of his time, in more than a way (think of his opposition to death penalty...).


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## Keith Bradford

Can I put in my two-penn'orth?

I think this discussion, though interesting, has split in half.  Inevitably.  Because we're discussing a poem written in 1890 but trying to use the language of our own time to do so, in an area where language has evolved rapidly and at times ridiculously. 

In the fifteen years (1975-1990) that I spent working against racism in Great Britain, I heard decent people using the words _coloured, African, Jamaican, Westindian, Afro-Caribbean, negro, people of colour _and _African-American_ as attempts to convey the self-same meaning.  Indecent people said _nigger_ or _wog_. We professionals usually said _*black*_.  Perhaps in another fifty years all these terms will have been replaced by another more politically correct.

But the original post asked what was usage in 1890.  I'd suggest _*negro*_, but would have no quarrel with a translator who took Conrad's example and used _*nigger*_.  However, a book translated in that way would never sell today in the USA.  It depends whether you want honest translation or commercial success.


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## Viobi

Keith Bradford said:


> But the original post asked what was usage in 1890.  I'd suggest _*negro*_, but would have no quarrel with a translator who took Conrad's example and used _*nigger*_.  However, a book translated in that way would never sell today in the USA.  It depends whether you want honest translation or commercial success.


So true...


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## mgarizona

Keith Bradford said:


> But the original post asked what was usage in 1890.  I'd suggest _*negro*_, but would have no quarrel with a translator who took Conrad's example and used _*nigger*_.  However, a book translated in that way would never sell today in the USA.  It depends whether you want honest translation or commercial success.



I think that's an entirely groundless assumption, sorry. I have yet to see the bowdlerized editions of Twain or Conrad. Any text from or even simply set in a pre-contemporary era runs the risk of seeming ridiculously sanitized if it allows current mores to determine its vocabulary. Where the word 'nigger' is historically accurate it must be used. To deny the word to a mercantile white of the 1800s would be like denying slurs on Judaism to a Nazi or homophobic epithets to a Republican US Senator.


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## Keith Bradford

Well, MGArizona, you live there and I don't. My evidence for saying that was:

The timidity of others (mainly American) on this site who daren't even spell out the word _nigger._
The fact that even Harry Potter gets rewritten for American taste.
...but I'm happy to stand corrected.


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## gustave

any help with this ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moreau_Sucre_crop.jpg


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