# Bad Grammar Can Cost Money



## Outsider

Something to show to lazy students? 



> A grammatical blunder may force Rogers Communications Inc. to pay an extra $2.13-million to use utility poles in the Maritimes after the placement of a comma in a contract permitted the deal's cancellation.
> 
> full article


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## Kräuter_Fee

Hehe that's a funny one! 
I remember a text I read once, it was a will without commas. Depending on where you put the commas... the result would be completely different! This one wasn't real though, not like your example


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## french4beth

Missing a _period_ can also be very alarming!  In a literal sense, any way!

But in this case, I'm sure that as in all litigation, the lawyers won - 18 months of negotiations times $400-$500/hour... (or whatever they were charging...).


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## timpeac

Thanks for sharing that Outsider! I remember once having a very long argument with someone who thought that commas should be slung in where they can act to "make clear the natural structure" (something like "When I was younger, I had a dog, that didn't like going for walks") and I thought that they should all be meaningful, somewhat like brackets in an equation. I'm glad to see that taking the first view is also potentially so costly!


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## panjandrum

Good one - link forwarded to our contracts section He'll love it


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## lazarus1907

Great example, Outsider!

Now I have something to quote when I try to persuade others that correct punctuacion is important.


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## tafanari

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Great example, Outsider!
> 
> Now I have something to quote when I try to persuade others that correct punctuacion is important.



You can also tell them about the Panda who shot a guy at a restaurant and left the scene of the crime after reading the following sentence in a Nature guide:

*Panda: Eats, shoots, and leaves.*


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## Logseman

Recuerdo también una cita de Felipe II, que lloró al perder a un amigo que había sido condenado a muerte, y todo por olvidarse de una coma:

-Perdón imposible, que cumpla su condena. (eso escribió)
-Perdón, imposible que cumpla su condena. (eso quería decir)


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## geve

Considering the two previous posts, should we rename this thread "Bad Grammar Kills"??  Catchy title, isn't it.

There's this too (it's in French - other examples of mischievous commas there too), about General Fairfax intentionally omitting the punctuation when writing this sentence _“Si omnes consentiunt ego non dissentio” _on the death-warrant of Charles I. Depending on whether one adds one or two commas, it could mean "_If they all agree, I don't oppose_"; or "_If they all agree, I don't, I'm opposing_"


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## ireney

Well, since we turned a bit morbid, there's always the famous prediction from the Oracle of Delphi given to a father enquiring if his son would be safe going to war.

You go you come not dying in the war. 
You go, you come, not dying in the war.

You go, you come not, dying in the war.

Tricky things, commas (and I mistreat them terribly when writing on forums !  )


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## Outsider

Was Greek written with commas, at that time? 
As much as I think punctuation is important, it seems that some ancient languages did without it (and perhaps some modern ones, too?)


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## mytwolangs

Even without that second comma, wouldn't it have meant the same thing? 

I think in something like this they would have found ANY excuse to ditch the meaning of the contract.


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## ireney

Outsider commas were invented in Hellenistic times, true. That's why they gave that dad a written version of the prediction


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## .   1

ireney said:
			
		

> Well, since we turned a bit morbid, there's always the famous prediction from the Oracle of Delphi given to a father enquiring if his son would be safe going to war.
> 
> You go you come not dying in the war.
> You go, you come, not dying in the war.
> 
> You go, you come not, dying in the war.
> 
> Tricky things, commas (and I mistreat them terribly when writing on forums !  )


I was of the impression that all of the predictions of the Oracle were entirely open to interpretation and that this was the point.
I thought that the Oracle assisted people to answer their own questions from inside their own minds.

.,,


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## ireney

should I answer this one or is it too off-topic?


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## lazarus1907

tafanari said:
			
		

> You can also tell them about the Panda who shot a guy at a restaurant and left the scene of the crime after reading the following sentence in a Nature guide:
> 
> *Panda: Eats, shoots, and leaves.*


Quite good too!


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## timpeac

Weren't the revelations of the oracle given out-loud? If so surely the placement of a comma is simply an interpretation of the oracle, as .,, suggests.


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## ireney

OK let's answer this one as fully yet simply as possible.

The oracle obviously didn't want to give clear predictions unless someone paid them heavily to predict this or the other.

What they said though was that their predictions were absolutely, 100% clear and it wasn't the oracle's fault if people were sometimes too stupid to understand what the God was saying.

Now since this was a simple question (will he die or will he not) it's was kind of hard to wriggle out of it. I mean they would have to 'use' a comma if they informed the father orally about what the priestess said. 

So, since, as outsider first pointed out, the ancient Greeks (and others) did without punctuation marks (or spaces between words quite often, or lower case letters) what they did was opt for the written response so that the recipient would be obliged to 'place' the comma himself.

Let's not forget that commas and periods and whatnot are supposed to represent the logical 'punctuation' that occurs in oral speech naturally. (Not the best phrase I've ever written but I hope you get my drift)


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## .   1

ireney said:
			
		

> Let's not forget that commas and periods and whatnot are supposed to represent the logical 'punctuation' that occurs in oral speech naturally. (Not the best phrase I've ever written but I hope you get my drift)


This looks like a case of ireney chanelling an Oracleyes I do drift with you.

Back to the question at hand.

There is an interesting local description of a wombat that does require some punctuation for clarity.

Wombat: eats roots shoots and leaves.

.,,


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## danielfranco

Will you all please get off our friend badgrammar's case? Thank you.


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## Edwin

There must be a million of ém. 

"A woman without her man, is nothing."
"A woman: without her, man is nothing."

--------From a review (in (long South American river).com of the best seller: *Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation* by Lynne Truss


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## geve

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Will you all please get off our friend badgrammar's case? Thank you.


That's exactly what I thought when I read the title of this thread: What? We're getting personal now?? I thought this was a serious, friendly community


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## sound shift

It's a pity bad spelling doesn't cost money. If it did, we might see a bit less of it in the UK. Just lately I've seen road signs showing "Stanstead", which should be "Stansted" and "Donnington", which should be "Donington". "Busses" instead of "buses" seems to be on the increase (and don't start me on "it's" instead of "its" ). Perhaps the people who prepare these things are semi-literate, but the people who sign them off should know better.


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## zena168

I use to hire tutors to help just because I needed to pull up my GPAs in my upper division English courses.  Let me tell you, it's 30.00 USD cash an hour for a good one.  Cash!!!  That means tax-free~!!  My BF completed his masters killing his brain cells at work is still not making that kinda money.


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## elroy

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> Even without that second comma, wouldn't it have meant the same thing?
> 
> I think in something like this they would have found ANY excuse to ditch the meaning of the contract.


 No, it wouldn't.

Actual text:
_[The agreement] shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party._

Because "and thereafter for successive five year terms" is set off by commas, you should be able to take it out and be left with a meaningful sentence that expresses what you want to say. If we take it out, we're left with 

_[The agreement] shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party._

which means that the stipulation beginning with "unless" applies to the first five years. The part that we took out is an additional piece of information that does not affect the thought that is communicated in the rest of the sentence.

You could also move it to another position in the sentence, in which case the role of the comma is clearer. Consider 

_[The agreement] shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party, and thereafter for successive five year terms._

which actually means that the stipulation applies to the first five years but not to successive terms. This is, in fact, what the sentence is saying.

Text without the second comma:
_[The agreement] shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party._ 

Here the part of the sentence after the comma ("and...party") is one single entity, which means that the stipulation beginning with "unless" applies to the successive five-year terms. We could also take out this part of the sentence, in which case we're left with 

_[The agreement] shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made._

which clearly indicates that the first five years are not subject to the stipulation and that the agreement cannot be terminated before the end of the first five-year term (as opposed to successive terms).

Hope that helps.


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## tafanari

zena168 said:
			
		

> I use to hire tutors to help just because I needed to pull up my GPAs in my upper division English courses.  Let me tell you, it's 30.00 USD cash an hour for a good one.  Cash!!!  That means tax-free~!!  My BF completed his masters killing his brain cells at work is still not making that kinda money.



So "good" grammar can cost money too!? Another case of "either way you look at it you lose."


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