# Classifier つ



## Diamondsmith

Hello you guys. Glad to find so many friends here! I am back again. I am learning to make some sentences, but I am puzzled by some expressions. Could I ask you for your help?

I guess we can say:
彼の主意 ‘his idea/ideas’; 
彼の話 ‘his story/stories’

I also think we can say:
彼は主意3つをある ‘He has three ideas.’ 
彼は3つの主意をある ‘He has three ideas.’ 
彼は主意を3つある ‘He has three ideas.’
彼は3つ主意をある ‘He has three ideas.’
--
彼は話3つをある ‘He has three stories.’ 
彼は3つの話をある ‘He has three stories.’ 
彼は話を3つある ‘He has three stories.’
彼は3つ話をある ‘He has three stories.’
But what are the nuances of these four structures?

The second question is how to say ‘this idea of his’ and ‘this story of his’. That is, he has many ideas and stories, and I just refer to one of these. Can I say:
彼のこのつの主意 and 彼のこのつの話? Can we use 個 for non-abstract nouns?

どうもありがとうございました!


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## Flaminius

Let's assume for the sake of discussion we'll translate idea into アイディア and story into 話.

His idea and his story are just like you guesse:
彼のアイディア
彼の話

Sentences for "he has three ideas etc." are:
彼(に)はアイディアが3つある。
彼(に)は3つアイディアがある。
彼(に)は3つのアイディアがある。

"this idea of his" is either:
彼のこのアイディア OR
この彼のアイディア


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## Diamondsmith

Thanks. Do we say 彼の as 'kano' or 'kareno'?


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## Flaminius

Flaminius said:


> 彼 when read _kare_ is "he," a pronoun.  かの, which could be written 彼の, is an archaic demonstrative pronoun on par with "that."


Therefore, they are all meant to be read _kareno_.


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## Diamondsmith

Thanks a lot, Flaminius. Now I see that 彼の is pronounced as /kano/ as an archaic determiner (an demonstrative can stand alone as subject or object), and as /kareno/ as a personal pronoun.


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## katzuhiko minohara corona

Hola Amigo. Followings are my observations in *red letters*.

彼は話3つをある ‘He has three stories.’ 
彼は話*が*3つ*ある*。
This is the simplest way to say that he has three stories. 

彼は3つの話をある ‘He has three stories.’
彼*に*は3つの話*が*ある。
A pasive form of saying it. 
Here the three stories are the main point, not that he has them.
is like saying "To him there are three stories".
You can drop him in the sentence, as follows:
３つの話がある。
"there are three stories".

彼は話を3つある ‘He has three stories.’
彼は話を３つ*持っている*。
The way you are using ある here is "there are".
you are saying "He there are three stories",
this is way you have to change
"there are" for "have" 持っている。
Here the main role is that he has them.

彼は3つ話をある ‘He has three stories.’
彼は３つ話*が*ある。
This an abreviated form of saying it. 
You are making a compound of 「3つ話」
Here the main role is the numbers, the quantity.
That there are three. 


‘this story of his’. 
彼のこの話。

彼のこのつの話? Can we use 個 for non-abstract nouns?
彼のこの*～*つの話。
I can not say that it is wrong to use 個, but つ sounds more natural to me.


Adios Amigo.​


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## Flaminius

Diamondsmith said:
			
		

> /kano/ as an archaic determiner (an demonstrative can stand alone as subject or object)


I made a mistake here but is not a demonstrative pronoun but a demonstrative adjective.  It only modifies a noun, but cannot be directly governed by a verb as subject or object.


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## fitter.happier

Diamondsmith, ある is an intransitive verb. That means it cannot have a direct object, as opposed to the English verb _to have_. In a nutshell, the accusative marker を cannot be used with ある.


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## Diamondsmith

katzuhiko minohara corona said:


> Hola Amigo. Followings are my observations in *red letters*.
> 
> 彼は話3つをある ‘He has three stories.’
> 彼は話*が*3つ*ある*。
> This is the simplest way to say that he has three stories.
> 
> 彼は3つの話をある ‘He has three stories.’
> 彼*に*は3つの話*が*ある。
> A pasive form of saying it.
> Here the three stories are the main point, not that he has them.
> is like saying "To him there are three stories".
> You can drop him in the sentence, as follows:
> ３つの話がある。
> "there are three stories".
> 
> 彼は話を3つある ‘He has three stories.’
> 彼は話を３つ*持っている*。
> The way you are using ある here is "there are".
> you are saying "He there are three stories",
> this is way you have to change
> "there are" for "have" 持っている。
> Here the main role is that he has them.
> 
> 彼は3つ話をある ‘He has three stories.’
> 彼は３つ話*が*ある。
> This an abreviated form of saying it.
> You are making a compound of 「3つ話」
> Here the main role is the numbers, the quantity.
> That there are three.
> 
> 
> ‘this story of his’.
> 彼のこの話。
> 
> 彼のこのつの話? Can we use 個 for non-abstract nouns?
> 彼のこの*～*つの話。
> I can not say that it is wrong to use 個, but つ sounds more natural to me.
> 
> 
> Adios Amigo.​


Gracias, Amigo. Your analysis is very illuminating. BTW, are the red letters the corrections to my versions? And what does it mean by adding the ~ in 彼のこの*～*つの話。?


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## Diamondsmith

fitter.happier said:


> Diamondsmith, ある is an intransitive verb. That means it cannot have a direct object, as opposed to the English verb _to have_. In a nutshell, the accusative marker を cannot be used with ある.


Many thanks. Oh yes を  is the direct object marker.


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## Diamondsmith

How about using 考え to translate "idea, notion"? 
Can I say 彼の三つ考え or 彼の三つの考え to mean "three of his ideas"? He has a number of great notions about how to spend his money, like going overseas for holidays, buying a fancy car, etc.


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## katzuhiko minohara corona

Q) Are the red letters the corrections to my versions? 
R) Yes. In red so you can see where exactly you was wrong. 
Let's review the following. 
ある
～を
～が
～に

ある
this verb means that 
1) something exist in some place "there is". ～がある
2) someone poses something "to have".　～がある

～を
～が
These two words doesn't have equivalents into English.
Following is how you use them.
何か
何かを
何かが

何か
something
This mean simply a thing.

何かを
This means
1) that you want to bring something particular. 
2) that you want to get something particular. 

何かが
This means
1) that there is something you don't know in someplace or out there.
2) that you want to have something particular. 

～に
This means that you.
1) place something into some place "into". Put. Belongs.
2) you give something to someone "to". Deliver. 

Let's check your examples.
彼は話3つ*をある* / 彼は3つ話*をある* / 彼は3つの話*をある*
He *there are* *brought* three stories. 
彼は話を3つ*ある* 
He *there are* three stories. 

Natural form will be.
～が
彼は*何々がある*
He *has something*

Q) what does it mean by adding the ~ in 彼のこの*～*つの話。?                 
R) It means that you have to place in that space in blank the corresponding word. 
In japanese you use "~" as in english you use "...".
For example. 
He has ... stories.
Originaly you wrote "He has stories" without "~".
By adding "..." you give the idea that you should put some words there.
In your case some numbers. 
That is the meaning of "~".
"~" it is pronounced "naninani" なになに


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## Diamondsmith

Again, for the phrase 彼のこの*～*つの話, what can we use to substitute for *～*? Can we say 彼のこの*三*つの話 (kare-no ko-no mit-tsu-no hanashi) or 彼のこの*一*つの話 (kare-no ko-no hito-tsu-no hanashi) ?


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## xiaolijie

Yes, you can. The "*～*" is the space where you can fill in a number as you've done correctly.

Edit:
*三*つ is read as "mittsu". Sorry!


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## Diamondsmith

xiaolijie said:


> Yes, you can. The "*～*" is the space where you can fill in a number as you've done correctly.
> 
> *三*つ is read as "mitsu".


Thanks!!!


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## Diamondsmith

*If 彼の is "his", then "her" must be 彼女の (かのじょの). Is that correct?*


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## xiaolijie

Diamondsmith said:


> *If 彼の is "his", then "her" must be 彼女の (かのじょの). Is that correct?*


Yes, you're correct.
Please see also my edit in post #15. I was wrong there about *三*つ.


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