# The comic book as a social phenomenon



## GEmatt

Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck; Marvel and DC; 漫画/Manga and "graphic novels"; Tintin, John Constantine, Hellboy...

This is something I was discussing with friends, but that we never finished. So I'm starting again. With all their variety in content, visual style and target readership, the idea was that comic books are more than just the idle pastimes they are sometimes made out to be.

What do they reflect, or say about ourselves, our environments? Can they be taken seriously as current indicators of trends, concerns, and the like?


GEMatt


----------



## Sepia

I learned reading in pre-school age by reading Donald Duck.

Later, however at the age of 12 or so, I was so fed up with Walt Disney comics that I never touched them any more. That was the time I began reanding the comics originating in the Franco-Belgian culture, then later manga.

It is funny how some European cultures have accepted comics as an art form and how they seem to be non-existant in other countries (like Russia!!). 
I find it ridiculous how literature snobs in the sixties and seventies (some still) considered comics "bad" and of less cultural value than "real books" and how parents nowadays sometimes consider the manga that their kids are reading "bad" and of less "value" than the Franco-Belgian comics they grew up with.


----------



## GEmatt

Interesting, Sepia, and thanks for your post!



> I learned reading in pre-school age by reading Donald Duck.


 
May I take it you didn't learn to speak by listening to him? 



> It is funny how some European cultures have accepted comics as an art form and how they seem to be non-existant in other countries (like Russia!!).


 
This is interesting. I just assumed that comic books were more or less widespread, and appeared to some greater or lesser extent anywhere that books appeared. But you say there's less of a comic book tradition in Russia? Are you referring to the present day? 



> ...and how parents nowadays sometimes consider the manga that their kids are reading "bad" and of less "value" than the Franco-Belgian comics they grew up with.


 
Franco-Belgian, as in Tintin, Astérix, etc.? Would you say that this is more fundamentally a question of wanting to bring one's child up with culturally familiar items or "props", instead of foreign ones? Or do you think they genuinely look down on manga?


----------



## Sepia

Yes, I am referring to modern day urban Russian culture. In fact the only traces of comics I could find in St. Petersburg were a few ones made for very small children and one would only find them among children's book.

Although I got to meet some really freaky artists I found no trace any underground comic scene like you'd expect to find in such a large city in Europe. Once, browsing through stores in Palma de Mallorca, I found an independent comic, created by a local artist. 

Another interesting observation I have made is that while the comic boom set in, in Scandinavia, 10-15 years before Germany, intellectuals did not consider comics "good literature" or art. One quite popular series that was first published in the Danish equivalent of TinTin, later in albums, was "Lieutenant Blueberry". This comic dealt thoroughly with the way the North American Indians were betrayed and massacred. Actually this was the first time I ever experienced main stream media dealing thoroughly with the genocides that made the US rich. (Should I put a link to the thread "American Bashing" here?)
Although politically controversial, these stories were recognized as valuable by the intellectuals, at the time. Years later, during the 90es, I discovered this comic in the ONE AND ONLY DANISH NEWSPAPER that intelledtuals would care to read. (The name of the newspaper: INFORMATION).


----------



## Etcetera

Yes, in Russia comic books are considered "childish", and, although children enjoy them (my sister loves them a lot), there are almost no comics for adults. Only comic pistures in several newspapers, but I'm not sure they can be considered a "real" comic.
I remember seeing quite a lot of Star Wars comic books, but they were desighed, it seems, mostly for teens. Not for children, but yet not for adults. 
Many friends of mine like manga, and they have to download it from the Internet or exchange disks.


----------



## GEmatt

Hi Etcetera, thanks for your input 

I suppose it wasn't very helpful of me to generalize. Of course, the comic books I mentioned in my list above are aimed at readers of all ages.

I wouldn't use the term "childish", though; it might be childish of an adult to read and take delight in a comic aimed at children, but I don't see why the comic book in itself should be considered as such. Although, having said that, I of course don't know the type of comic book you are referring to, or how old your sister is. Could you give an example or rough description, like what age group these are aimed at? Are we talking about a humorous publication? Or perhaps more of the adventure sort?



> Only comic pistures in several newspapers, but I'm not sure they can be considered a "real" comic.


 
Yes, I think these are what are referred to in the US as "the funnies" (although they don't have to be humorous). According to the wikipedia entry, they could be called "sequential art", which takes me back to the topic of the thread. In the same way that art can be a reflection of and commentary on contemporary political and social trends (reflections and commentaries that can be present in children's comic books as well as in comics for adults), can the comic book be, as well, and to what extent?


----------



## Etcetera

My 10-years-old sister likes comics about Disney characters. There are many comic magazines published under license of the Disney company. They're all for children, of course. Or at least for teens (I've seen comics based on Pirates of the Caribbean, Star Wars, and other popular movies). 

Something like "daily strips" indeed appear in some newspapers. The Moskovsky Komsomolets has them in every its issue. They're usually very sarcastic. 

Hope that helps. I really don't know much about all that, as I almost never read papers.


----------



## Mate

GEmatt said:


> What do they reflect, or say about ourselves, our environments? Can they be taken seriously as current indicators of trends, concerns, and the like?
> 
> 
> GEMatt


Perhaps Mafalda was the most influential and popular comic ever created in Argentina.

From Wikipedia*: *"..._*Mafalda*, first written and drawn in __1962__, is a comic and a series of animated cartoons and a movie (1982), written and drawn by the __Argentine__cartoonist__Quino__. The strip features a girl named Mafalda (5 years old at the time of the comic's creation) with a deep concern about __humanity__ and __world peace__ who rebels against the world as it is; it ran from 1964 to 1973, enjoying high popularity in both __Latin America__ and __Europe__._
_Mafalda has occasionally been compared to __Charles Schulz__'s __Charlie Brown__, most notably by __Umberto Eco__ in 1968, for reasons Quino states he does not understand...."_

Other favorite comic, much more local and politic, is Gaturro, by Nik: 

From Wiki, again: "_Gaturro is the protagonist of the comic. He lives with his owners who have raised him since he was young. While his house is a charming place, he also enjoys roaming the rooftops of his neighborhood..."_
_"...Gaturro's owners send him to school every now and then, not for the education, but to get him out of the house. In school, Gaturro is a bit of a troublemaker and makes life difficult for his teacher, Ms. Ruda Vinagretti. Gaturro has also appeared dressed in formal clothes at his owner's office in some strips to issue a punchline in the form of a thought bubble, but what he does there hasn't really been explained_..."

But perhaps Inodoro Pereyra, a comic based on the surrealist life and even more surrealist thoughts and sayings of a squizophrenic gaucho (see the pic in my avatar) is nowadays the most popular and loved comic in Argentina and many other Latin American Countries. Resourcing to the absurd Inodoro, a weird and in his own way intellectual Argentine gaucho, depicts the ongoing clash among traditional and technological societies.

His author is Roberto (el negro) Fonanarrosa whose better known strips are the already mentioned _Inodoro Pereyra_, featuring a gaucho and his talking dog _Mendieta_, and _Boogie el Aceitoso_.

Cheers - Mate


----------



## .   1

Comics like Batman and The Phantom have influenced parts of a couple of generations of my culture.
Many adults in Australia seem to have retained a fondness for these types of comics and I am led to believe that the Graphic Novel is also quite popular.

.,,


----------



## V3nom_is_here

I`ve recently got into the Comic Book "phenomenon" , and eventough I`m kind of old to start reading them , I enjoy them


----------



## cute angel

comic yes here in our country algeria 
we are loving cartoons
specially children
but there are some cartoons that the adults watch too like sandy belle green dizer because ités came back theire childhood
for me i'm watching cartoon till now
but cartoon sometimes dangerous like violent once 
so we must choose the good


----------



## Cereth

Well in Mexico Memín Pinguín is a very famous comic  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memin_Pinguin
as well as "La familia Burrón"

I used to read them when I was a child, as well as Mafalda (I knew that Fidel Castro, The Kremlin and Communism existed because of that comic)...I still read it from once in a while and still find it amuzing
I also liked reading Archie and donald duck...
right now In Mexico these comics are no longer read (well at least by younger generations)...
Japanese Manga (comic) is having quite a big success in here and the Mexican Publishing house: VID is releasing a great collection of succesful manga in Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editorial_Vid

A social phenomenon and a globalization phenomenon too


----------



## panjabigator

> What do they reflect, or say about ourselves, our environments? Can they be taken seriously as current indicators of trends, concerns, and the like?



Comics, aside from entertainment purposes are highly useful in molding a strong image (or whatever desired image) in our youth believe it or not.  In India, they have countless comics, and most of the popular ones that I was exposed to (all after I turned 20...arguably post childhood) were religious in content, regaling old tales from the good old days where women were submissive and perfect* and men were (insert required attribute here).  One particular type of comics were released by a group called the Amar Chitra Katha, and they had a big role in influencing how women should behave in 20th century India.


----------



## 1Euro

Here in Spain there was an initial contempt on comics as "bad literature" or even corrupting. When democracy came, the concept "where you can find a comic today, you'll find a book tomorrow" spreaded. Today comics are very popular (specially manga and local production, usually humoristic) but they're somewhat seen still like a sort of "lesser art". Strong fan activity is rare and reduced to a few shops and events.


----------



## CrazyIvan

Yesterday my under-classmate bought a comic book, then we started a conversation comparing the Japnese and American comic books, regarding to topics and the ways illustrating the plot.

We found that interesting that, given the way they exaggerate the power or ability of characters in the plot, the American do emphasize more on heroism, and Japanese indeed talk more about team work.(Based on our observation only, of course. )

So, as a social phenomenon, I think indeed those books reflect something.

We aslo find that, Japanese comic writer(?) tend to make "surreal" expression. We consider that may have something to do with the introvert Japanese culture as well. They do not express their feeling too much in the public, which is a culture bounded with so many rules. I do not know, that is also a rough guess.


----------



## GEmatt

CrazyIvan said:


> We aslo find that, Japanese comic writer(?) tend to make "surreal" expression. We consider that may have something to do with the introvert Japanese culture as well. They do not express their feeling too much in the public, which is a culture bounded with so many rules. I do not know, that is also a rough guess.


 
Thanks for your post, CrazyIvan. Could you give an example of what you mean by "surreal", in the comics you mention? In terms of storyline, or in terms of artwork? Or is it expressed in features which, based on your comparison of American and Japanese comics, you consider characteristic of the latter?


----------



## Grop

Sepia said:


> how parents nowadays sometimes consider the manga that their kids are reading "bad" and of less "value" than the Franco-Belgian comics they grew up with.



My guess is that many people who like(d) Franco-Belgian comics don't feel easy about Japanese comics for several reasons:
 - They associate it with negative stereotypes (such as surrealist violence and cthuloid aliens having forced sex with teens).
 - They associate it with video games.
 - They dislike the geek culture (Japanese and Japanglish jargon) that developped around "mangas".

Franco-Belgian don't have these "features". Plus, they are generally more serious and many people think their drawing style is less standardized (therefore two different comic books are supposed to look more "different").

I also think it is easier for a person of Franco-Belgian culture to detect "adult content" in a Franco-Belgian comic book.

Edit: Sorry for being so geek 

Cthuloid <-> Cthulhu-like (like Cthulhu the horrible pagan god in Lovecraft's fiction - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu).
I meant a giant mutant monster with tentacles


----------



## .   1

Grop said:


> cthuloid aliens


G'day Grop
What is a cthuloid alien.

.,,


----------



## maxiogee

. said:


> G'day Grop
> What is a cthuloid alien.
> 
> .,,



The sort who have sex with human teens, apparently.

Not many of them around Ireland, unless they're disguising themselves as other teenagers!


----------



## GEmatt

Grop said:


> My guess is that many people who like(d) Franco-Belgian comics don't feel easy about Japanese comics for several reasons:
> - They associate it with negative stereotypes (such as surrealist violence and cthuloid aliens having forced sex with teens).
> - They associate it with video games.
> - They dislike the geek culture (Japanese and Japanglish jargon) that developped around "mangas".


Hi Grop,
This does not much surprise me, as I'd hazard a guess that most nationals of one country feel uneasy or overwhelmed when confronted with the popular culture of another country - and the more "other" the country, the greater the discomfort.

I've talked with Taiwan and Japan natives who have described Western comic artwork as "basic" and "undeveloped". I seem to remember that it was the convention of rendering characters' eyes in the West as "cake with a slice missing" or "two pencil dots" (the works of Warner Bros. and Mr. Remi spring to mind). This, compared to some of the more elaborate illustration we sometimes see in manga and its offshoots.

I'd be more interested in how Franco-Belgians view their own comic book traditions, than in stereotyping the traditions of others. For the moment, at least. Any feelings on that?


----------



## CrazyIvan

> I've talked with Taiwan and Japan natives who have described Western comic artwork as "basic" and "undeveloped". I seem to remember that it was the convention of rendering characters' eyes in the West as "cake with a slice missing" or "two pencil dots" (the works of Warner Bros. and Mr. Remi spring to mind). This, compared to some of the more elaborate illustration we sometimes see in manga and its offshoots.


 
Dear GEmatt,

I would like to add some more opinion regarding "basic" and "undevelopment." Though I have limited knowledge about the comic books in another countries, I have seen some, which has been transformed into movies. I found them mostly regarding to a character with super-natural power or something alike. However,the topics in Asian comics has quite a great range. We talk sports, leisures ( fishing, water-scooter, racing), development of an profession ( in company, in bakery, in restaurant.), even serious topics as politics. For me, Japanese comic books, which I like very much, contain more or less every perspective of life. It doesn't mean that they do not have some "unrealistic" parts as well. Just meaning that they have some more essence.



> I'd be more interested in how Franco-Belgians view their own comic book traditions, than in stereotyping the traditions of others. For the moment, at least. Any feelings on that?


 
I would like to know more about that as well....

p.s. sorry,GEmatt, I did find a example for how "surreal" the expression of characters in Japanese comics can have, but I found that I cannot post pix file here. >.<


----------



## Grop

Well, Franco-German comics today also address several sorts of topics.

I think the majority of comic books in France are either adventure fiction (that may be fantasy, sci-fi, police/spy stories, you name it) or comedies (generally makin fun of our society), including parodic mixes of both. There is also more serious stuff, such as dramatic fiction with serious reflexions on moral or political issues.

A few comic books are illustrations of a novel, of songs, or of the history of a place.


----------



## Mate

GEmatt said:


> ]"...the idea was that comic books are more than just the idle pastimes they are sometimes made out to be.[/i]
> 
> _What do they reflect, or say about ourselves, our environments? Can they be taken seriously as current indicators of trends, concerns, and the like?"_


 
A couple of years ago Roberto Fontanarrosa explained the reason why most critics dismiss comic books as a minor genre: the frames are too small for comics to qualify as a "real" or "authentic" art form. 

Hence, comic art must be considered as a "minor art" form.

Considering those critics opinion can you think of something stupidest?

Cheers! - Mate


----------



## paper

On the subject of Manga, a social phenomenon which I find interesting/slightly bemusing is that many people in their twenties are big, big fans of the Manga television "cartoon" series and often seem to have an obsession with a certain character or characters. I've seen many a personal webpage/Myspace of people aged like 25 (not much younger than myself, by the way) who have the whole page covered in Manga-related stuff. In the various internet forums I read (including this one) I have noticed so many Manga-related avatars of people who are no longer exactly adolescents, and to be honest I find it a bit odd. I can understand the interest in fantasy comic books continuing beyond teenage years, but watching cartoons and having your bedroom plastered with posters of those 12-year-old cutesy-looking Manga characters when you are in your mid-twenties just seems weird/sad to me. But this is not like an underground cult thing, it's more like mainstream culture.


----------



## Lingvisten

I think, that comic books can be used to a much greater extend than today. In my early teen years I found great pleasure (still do) in reading a series of comic books called "Illustreret Danmarkshistorie for folket" (Illustrated history of Denmark for the people). these comic books where made by Claus Deleuran. They contain humor, sex, violence and loads of text. through them I learned about: History, historical linguistics, different religious beliefs, cultures, roots of traditions, pagan cults, superstitions, archeology, geology, paleontology, roman politics, ancient mythologies, and so on. It included a significant amount of different theories, and some pretty advanced stuff, for a boy age 13-15. I gave me an interest for so many things i never would have been aquainted with, had it not been for this comic book. The auther sadly died before finishing the series. But despite this it covers from the creation of the world to the last part of the viking age, divided into 9 books.

My point is, that you can stimulate kids and teenagers through comics in a way, that not many other things are able to, and this potential should be used a lot more.


----------



## bibliolept

It seems to me that we're discussing newspaper cartoons and editorial cartoons along with comic books.

The effect of comic books on the USA's culture and collective psyche is immense. For over half-a-century, we're a nation that has grown up not just with heroes but with superheroes.

It took many years for them to even develop the slightest flaws and character conflicts, to become more human and even mortal.Superman was only allowed to die temporarily. And his "human" analogue of sorts, Captain America, only "died" this year. (And both those merited mentions in newspapers and cable news shows.)

I don't think most serious critics or observers of culture nowadays contend that comic books or graphic novels are not a valid medium or art form. Consider works like _Berlin_, _Maus_, _Watchmen_, _The Dark Knight Returns_, _American Splendor_, and _Kingdom Come_. As the sophistication of the stories has progressed, so has their acceptance and their influence. And, yes, more and more children are finding it acceptable to hold on to comic books rather than "putting away these childish things."


----------



## Stiannu

When I was a teenager (early to mid 90s), in Italy teens had 3 options, not mutually exclusive: after having abandoned Disney characters (definitely childish), they could opt for Marvel superheroes; for Italian comic books (there's a big production, pioneered by characters such as Tex and Zagor, but in my adolescence the choice would go to horror comic series Dylan Dog and others); or for Japanese manga (Video Girl Ai and Ken il Guerriero were milestones in that period), a recent acquisition then (Japanese cartoons were the afternoon educative agency for *every* Italian child during the whole 80s, but comics came a little later). I had the impression that it depended much on one's inclinations and interests, and the choice seemed relatively free. 
Today, Marvel comics hardly survive, Italian comics are doing a little better, but mangas definitely rule. TV, merchandising and popular culture have greatly contributed to this shift and what was a possible choice (maybe of a minority) is now the majority option. Still, I have the impression that manga readers have gone a little geeky (I don't mean to offend anyone), often collecting every sort of information about their heroes, and more. I happened to listen to a show on the national radio this summer, and it was surreal: two young DJs animated a program entirely dedicated to Japanese popular culture, especially manga and cartoons, discussing latest issues and news of every kind and broadcasting Japanese pop songs (Japanese music is virtually invisible in mainstream music consumption, at least in Italy). I didn't think it could go that far...

I'm leaving aside more intellectual comic books, the ones you could find in bookstores more than at the newsagents (ranging from Belgian comics to 60s underground comics), that is series like Corto Maltese and authors like Crepax or Altan; and satire comics published on newspapers, which have also a good tradition in Italy, although smaller than the American one. But these are different audiences, I suppose.


----------



## paper

Stiannu said:


> When I was a teenager (early to mid 90s), in Italy teens had 3 options, not mutually exclusive: after having abandoned Disney characters (definitely childish), they could opt for Marvel superheroes; for Italian comic books (there's a big production, pioneered by characters such as Tex and Zagor, but in my adolescence the choice would go to horror comic series Dylan Dog and others); or for Japanese manga


I was a teenager in the 90s too, but to be honest I can't remember many people of that age where I live being into comic books, apart from maybe a few very weird types (I mean the kind of teenagers who still play with toys). I stopped reading comics when I was about 12, and that was probably considered a bit old (!) to still be reading them in those days, at least where I live. That's why I find it strange that in 2007 there are so many twentysomethings who have this big obsession with Manga.


----------



## NotTheDoctor

CrazyIvan said:


> Yesterday my under-classmate bought a comic book...


 
Slightly off-topic but what exactly is an "under-classmate"? Thanks!


----------



## Drechuin

GEmatt said:


> I'd be more interested in how Franco-Belgians view their own comic book traditions, than in stereotyping the traditions of others. For the moment, at least. Any feelings on that?



The main difference I've seen between French and Japanese comics (It's an awful generalization): the French authors have more time to realize their books and work on a whole book, whereas Japanese authors release often their work every week/month on a magazine.
Therefore the artwork is different (French use colours more often) and the pace of the story is quicker in Japanese comics (since they must keep the readers interested each week).

So I think that we see French comics more like artbooks: hardcover, coloured.

As you said, there's some stereotypes against other traditions (I would speak about the last book of asterix, which is hateful, but my brain refuse to aknowledge that it exists), but things are changing:
-Some French comics are borrowing rather heavily characteristics of Japanese comics (the character design for example).
-Japanese comics are losing their 'immature' tag as the range of translated comics increase. Some comics are published and receive good criticisms from some 'intellectual' reviews (it's not uncommon to read a good article on a manga in Telerama). 

Of course, all my message is as-far-I-know-ish and in-my-humble-opinion-ish.
I've mixed Japanese and Korean comics for a sake of simplicity. Korean comics are less widespread, but they follow the same pattern.
I haven't spoken about american comics, since they are not sold with other comics (the paperback issues are sold with newspapers and the hardcover issues are uncommon).


----------



## Porteño

I was brought up in the days of _Beano_ and another comic whose name escapes me at the moment. These two were considered 'appropriate' whereas others were not considered 'acceptable' by my mother for reasons of her own. Probably it was because these did not depict violence. Later on there appeared a very ambitious semi-educational comic '_Eagle_' which I recall was excellent with beautiful illustrations and a lot of useful knowledge notes.

Unlike _Tintin, _none of these comics carried any political overtones nor were they intended for adults. They did however reflect English 'values' as seen at that time.

I've just remembered the other one, it was _Dandy_.


----------



## Outsider

Porteño said:


> Unlike _Tintin, _none of these comics carried any political overtones nor were they intended for adults.


The political overtones of Tintin were very light, when there were any. I never noticed any politics in most albums. Maybe I just missed it...

There are some great Franco-Belgian comics. They are popular in Portugal, or at least they were when I was a youngster. When I first started learning French, our textbooks had a few comic strips of famous characters, which delighted me at the time. Quino's work and some American series are also good.

There were also some good French language cartoons on TV. I remember especially a series which seemed to be a French-Canadian-Japanese collaboration, called _Il était une fois..._


----------



## Stiannu

Outsider said:


> The political overtones of Tintin were very light, when there were any. I never noticed any politics in most albums. Maybe I just missed it...


 
Oh God, I'd really like you to read a funny strip by Claire Bretécher's Les Frustrés, where a couple of leftist parents want to prevent their child from reading Tintin's comic books because of its reactionary tones... until they find out that the issue could be an original and rare copy, very appreciated by the collectors' market.


----------



## JazzByChas

As in any other art form, comic books tend to reflect the society in which they are written.  Many time comic books, or even cartoons, seen on movies or television, will be written to children as their target audience, yet, because they are typically written by adults, they have significance to all ages.

Growing up in the USA, I watched and read the Warner Brothers cartoons (Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, etc.), Rocky and Bullwinkle, and read a lot of Archie Comics.  I founds that they made you laugh, but later realized that they were written by adults, in essence, to make fun of the characters represented in the comics.  The humor, if you thought about it, was always written from an adult point of view, which you understood better as you got older, and saw life from a more experienced point of view.



			
				GEMatt said:
			
		

> What do they reflect, or say about ourselves, our environments? Can they be taken seriously as current indicators of trends, concerns, and the like?


----------



## GEmatt

Thank you all for your great comments!


----------

