# at/in <the> school



## Whodunit

This question is a very interesting one for me because I used the expressions with "school" _from patterns_ until now, but now I want you to suggest me when to use which expression. Where's the difference between:

in school
at school
in the school
at the school

???

I used Google to learn things from patterns, and here's my result:

in school (I would have used "in schools")
at school (I would have used "in schools" as well)
in the school (I would have used "at school")
at the school (I would have used "in school")

I know that we use the definite article before school where we are referring to a specific school, e.g. "I'm going to the King George High School". But I don't get the different meanings of all the other ones.   

Could you provide some examples in additon, please?


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## Amityville

Examples.
Why isn't Jane at home ? She's at school.
Is Jane working yet ? No, she's in school.
Where is the local polling station ? It's at the school.

"In the school". I don't use this one.

I believe AE and BE may be different in respect of school.

PS Afterthought. Where would you find the headmaster ? In the school, of course.


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## Aupick

As Amityville's examples demonstrate, you drop the article and say _at school_, _in school_ (or _to school_) if you want to talk about school in an abstract way.
Saying that Johnny is _at the school_ tells you where he is.
Saying that Johnny is _at school_ tells you what he's doing.

My favourite example of this (using _to_) is with kids who are homeschooled. You can say, for example:
Johnny goes _to school_ at home (Meaning Johnny receives his education at home).

In contrast:
Nelson's father has to go to the school each week to explain his son's behaviour to the headmaster. (Nelson's father is not receiving an education, but goes physically to his son's school.)

So, in the examples you give:
Helping children succeed in school = Helping children succeed in their education.
In the school = What children can learn about marine life in the classroom (as opposed to at the aquarium).
Bullying at school = bullying between school pupils
At the school = that aspect of the company's work that takes place on location, on the school premises.


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## jacinta

Very good, Aupick!  Couldn´t have said it better myself.


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## Whodunit

Aupick said:
			
		

> As Amityville's examples demonstrate, you drop the article and say _at school_, _in school_ (or _to school_) if you want to talk about school in an abstract way.
> Saying that Johnny is _at the school_ tells you where he is.
> Saying that Johnny is _at school_ tells you what he's doing.



Ok, then when I say "I'm at school" I mean "I'm taking an exam at school (for instance)", right? But when I say "I'm at the school" then I'm referring to my location, ok?



> My favourite example of this (using _to_) is with kids who are homeschooled. You can say, for example:
> Johnny goes _to school_ at home (Meaning Johnny receives his education at home).



So "go to school" always means "receive education (anywhere)" and "to be at school" means "I'm doing something at school right now". Did I get it?



> In contrast:
> Nelson's father has to go to the school each week to explain his son's behaviour to the headmaster. (Nelson's father is not receiving an education, but goes physically to his son's school.)



That one is completely clear to me.



> So, in the examples you give:
> Helping children succeed in school = Helping children succeed in their education.
> In the school = What children can learn about marine life in the classroom (as opposed to at the aquarium).
> Bullying at school = bullying between school pupils
> At the school = that aspect of the company's work that takes place on location, on the school premises.



Well, that makes sense to me. You can't guess how much I thank you. Thank you very very much, Aupick.   

(Well done, my teacher!  )


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## fenixpollo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Ok, then when I say "I'm at school" I mean "I'm taking an exam at school (for instance)", right? But when I say "I'm at the school" then I'm referring to my location, ok?
> *Yes -- to the specific school that you attend.*
> 
> So "go to school" always means "receive education (anywhere)" and "to be at school" means "I'm doing something at school right now". Did I get it?
> *You got it.  I think you can use "in" and "at" more or less interchangeably, although I think there's more extensive use of "at school" in BE.*


Your question about "in schools" -- this is to describe something that is generally happening in all schools or in the field of education.

Hope this helps.


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## jess oh seven

in school - i am inside the school as a student, learning, right now. OR i am a student, i do not have a job, and this is what i do in general. eg. "what do you do?" "oh, i'm still in school".

at school - more or less the same as "in school".

in the school - inside the school _for reasons other than learning/studying_

at the school - same as "in the school" more or less, but you could be outside.


more or less... it's difficult to explain.


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## jacinta

If I were to call home from school, I would say:
I'm still at school; I'll be home at 5:00. 

So, at school to me means the location of being at the school where I work.

Children learn the basic educational subjects in school.  The school my son attends offers many outside activities that they don't offer in school.  
"In school" tells me that it is during school hours when school is (classes are) in session.
I can't talk to you now because I'm in school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)

They offer hot lunches at school but he prefers a bag lunch.

They are having a carnival at the school today. (refering to an activity outside of school hours)

Just more to add to your understanding


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## Whodunit

Well, thank you all so much for having answered my "a bit difficult to answer" question. I knew it is a choice by feel, but I just wanted to have some examples and patterns. Now I have them, so thank you very much.


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## gaer

jacinta said:
			
		

> I can't talk to you now because I'm in school (I'm working. Classes are in session.)


I agree with every other sentence, and this one is fine too, but in this case I might also say, talking to someone on a cell phone:

I can't talk to you now because I'm *at* school (I'm working. Classes are in session.)

I'm mentioning this because I had already explained to Who that it's VERY difficult in some instances to pick on or the other.

I wanted to contrast this with this:

"Our children are still in school and have two more years to go."

In this case it could only be "in". Here "in school" means "attending school" as opposed to either having left school or having dropped out. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Ok, then when I say "I'm at school" I mean "I'm taking an exam at school (for instance)", right? But when I say "I'm at the school" then I'm referring to my location, ok?


I think you have it, but let me enlarge:

"I'm at the school that is directly across the street from McDonald's on 1st Ave. Can you pick me up there?" 

(Probably you would be in front of the school, but that would be clear, and you would be describing the location of the school at which are located.


> So "go to school" always means "receive education (anywhere)" and "to be at school" means "I'm doing something at school right now". Did I get it?


Yes and no.

I go to school every day at 7 AM. (By 8 AM you will be at school.)

I'm going to school tomorrow one your early. (Same idea.)

BUT:

I can't work a full-time job because I'm still going to school.

I go to school, so I can't work during the week before 5 PM.

(Now it has the meaning you are talking about, Who…) 

I think this is terribly difficult and confusing! 

Gaer


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## panjandrum

Amazingly, there seems to be general consensus in this thread.
So I have picked at it, and I found a little bit that unravels, for me.



> "Our children are still in school and have two more years to go."
> 
> In this case it could only be "in".


Not so.
The general usage here would definitely be "at school".

Parents with children at school ...... is the BE norm.
Parents with children in school ..... sounds strange to me, but is perhaps the AE norm?

In fact, reflecting on this, "in school" really sounds strange to me in all contexts?


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## jacinta

gaer said:
			
		

> I agree with every other sentence, and this one is fine too, but in this case I might also say, talking to someone on a cell phone:
> 
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *at* school (I'm working. Classes are in session.)


Yes, I agree.  You could say this, too.  I suppose if a mindless person who didn't know my schedule were to call me during school hours, I would say, "I can't talk. I'm in class now."

Boy!  All these ins and ats.  I think it must be a tough one to get.


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## johnL

Panjandrum:
Parents with children in school... would be normal for AE.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I can't talk to you now because I'm *at* school (I'm working. Classes are in session.)



Huh? Would you really think I'll ever say that in all my live? Oh my God, no one would call me during the classes, unless it's someone who really wants to make me angry. And if at all, I won't accept that call.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Huh? Would you really think I'll ever say that in all my live? Oh my God, no one would call me during the classes, unless it's someone who really wants to make me angry. And if at all, I won't accept that call.


Imagine you are older and a teacher. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Imagine you are older and a teacher.
> 
> Gaer



Haha, that may be true. Have you ever gotten a call during your classes as a taecher? What scatty friends.


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## mjscott

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Haha, that may be true. Have you ever gotten a call during your classes as a taecher? What scatty friends.


I agree that _in school_ means that you are still matriculated. 

"We will not be taking a vacation this year because my daughter is still in school and we will need to help her with her tuition."

This does not mean that she is physically at the school--just that she is continuing to take classes.

Sometimes a family member will call with a question at school. They know that it has to be very important if they are calling me at work--it isn't done unless there is something I need to know before I check my mailbox!

Whodunit--you never cease to amaze me with your penchant for languages!


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## Whodunit

mjscott said:
			
		

> I agree that _in school_ means that you are still matriculated.
> 
> "We will not be taking a vacation this year because my daughter is still in school and we will need to help her with her tuition."
> 
> This does not mean that she is physically at the school--just that she is continuing to take classes.
> 
> Sometimes a family member will call with a question at school. They know that it has to be very important if they are calling me at work--it isn't done unless there is something I need to know before I check my mailbox!
> 
> Whodunit--you never cease to amaze me with your penchant for languages!



Hey, thank you very much for another explanation. Okay, the thing with an important message makes me think about it.   

Besides, you never cease to amaze me with your penchant for answers.


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## foxfirebrand

I second the remark about "in school" being the AE norm to denote enrolment.  Analogous to the term "at university" or "in hospital" you hear from BE speakers-- jarring to American ears.


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## fredisaking

Great explanation...how about this one?

"Mary Hart, student at NYU"

I saw this the other day and, according to your explanations, it means Mary is physically now doing something at school, like in the classroom. You feel werid?


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## susanna76

I have a question about "at school"/"at the school" in British English.

Amityville says:
Why isn't Jane at home? She's at school.

But then Aupick says:
Saying that Johnny is _at the school_ tells you where he is.

So which one is it when referring to *location*? (in British English)


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## panjandrum

_Jane is at school._
It is normal school hours and Jane is attending school.

_Jane is at the school._
If Jane is a student, it is probably outside normal hours and Jane is at the school for some extra-curricular activity.  Perhaps she is rehearsing for the school play.

Both sentences tell me where Jane is.


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## Forero

fredisaking said:


> Great explanation...how about this one?
> 
> "Mary Hart, student at NYU"
> 
> I saw this the other day and, according to your explanations, it means Mary is physically now doing something at school, like in the classroom. You feel werid?


This does not say Mary is at school now but that NYU is her school. When she is at school, she is at NYU.  She is in school (she attends school) at NYU.

_NYU_ is the proper name of an educational institution, and _NYU_ might also refer to that institution's campus.  The word _school_ used without an article is not a proper name but a common noun, referring either to a station in life ("in school") or to a place where a person might be found ("at school").


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## susanna76

panjandrum said:


> _Jane is at school._
> It is normal school hours and Jane is attending school.
> 
> _Jane is at the school._
> If Jane is a student, it is probably outside normal hours and Jane is at the school for some extra-curricular activity.  Perhaps she is rehearsing for the school play.
> 
> Both sentences tell me where Jane is.



Wow, interesting. Now I wonder if the same distinction applies in American English!


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## cuchuflete

susanna76 said:


> Wow, interesting. Now I wonder if the same distinction applies in American English!


 It does, with a small difference:



> Originally Posted by *panjandrum*
> 
> 
> _Jane is at school._
> It is normal school hours and Jane is attending school.  Same in AE.
> 
> _Jane is at the school._
> If Jane is a student, it is probably outside normal hours and Jane is at the school for some extra-curricular activity. Perhaps she is rehearsing for the school play.  Same in AE.
> 
> Both sentences tell me where Jane is. Same in AE.



_Jane is at school.   This can have a more general meaning, telling you both where she is and what she is doing.

_Where is your daughter Jane these days?
Jane is at school.

In some contexts, this will mean that she is away at boarding school or college. It gives information about both location and occupation.


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## Pedro y La Torre

> The use of "the" in terms like "going to hospital/the hospital" is usually ascribed to the influence of Irish English on the American language in the 19th century. Before 1870, most of the Irish immigrants to the US had grown up speaking Gaelic, and had adopted English as a second language either in Ireland or after landing in America......Irish Gaelic did not use any definite article equivalent to "the" to denote generic/specific noun aspects as in English. When speakers of Irish Gaelic switched to speaking English, they tended to confuse this particular grammatical nuance of English....



Full version to be found on this page (about half-way down).

Whilst it is true that Irish English speakers will often use constructions like "in the hospital" too, I always presumed that it was down to American influence.

Can anyone confirm, or rebut the above hypothesis? It seems an interesting one but I was under the impression that "in the hospital" was part of American speech long before the Irish started emigrating to the U.S. in large numbers.


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## fenixpollo

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Can anyone confirm, or rebut the above hypothesis?


 I can't confirm or rebut this hypothesis, but it is unconvincing to me: 





> The use of "the" in terms like "going to hospital/the hospital" is usually ascribed to the influence of Irish English on the American language in the 19th century. Before 1870, most of the Irish immigrants to the US had grown up speaking Gaelic, and had adopted English as a second language either in Ireland or after landing in America......Irish Gaelic did not use any definite article equivalent to "the" to denote generic/specific noun aspects as in English. When speakers of Irish Gaelic switched to speaking English, they tended to confuse this particular grammatical nuance of English....the use of "the Hospital" - based in an irregular form - became accepted in American English.


 It's not exactly a scholarly article: there are grammatical and spelling issues, and there are no sources cited. For example, what percentage of native Irish-speakers were schooled by the "British-mandated" system in 1860, as compared with 1880?


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## Pedro y La Torre

fenixpollo said:


> I can't confirm or rebut this hypothesis, but it is unconvincing to me:  It's not exactly a scholarly article: there are grammatical and spelling issues, and there are no sources cited. For example, what percentage of native Irish-speakers were schooled by the "British-mandated" system in 1860, as compared with 1880?



I'm not convinced by it either, but it's worth posing the question, if only to have it rebutted.

State primary education was put in place in Ireland by the British in 1835. Education was generally conducted in English only. Before that, the vast majority of Irish children (and especially Irish-speaking children) either did not go to school, or were educated in ad-hoc "hedge schools".

English-only education combined with the effects of the Irish famine served to drastically reduce the number of native Irish speakers in the country around the period 1850-1880. It was also around this time, of course, that the Irish started emigrating to the U.S. in large numbers.


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## Ariel Knightly

jacinta said:


> If I were to call home from school, I would say:
> I'm still *at *school; I'll be home at 5:00.
> 
> So, at school to me means the location of being at the school where I work.
> 
> Children learn the basic educational subjects in school.  The school my son attends offers many outside activities that they don't offer in school.
> "In school" tells me that it is during school hours when school is (classes are) in session.
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *in *school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)
> 
> They offer hot lunches at school but he prefers a bag lunch.
> 
> They are having a carnival *at the* school today. (refering to an activity outside of school hours)
> 
> Just more to add to your understanding


If you say _*in *school_ when classes are in session and _*at the *school_ when referring to an activity outside of school hours, why did you use_ *at *school_ in your first sentence? Is that because you weren't talking about an activity? So if you talk about where you are, you say _*at *school_; but if you're just talking about where an activity is going to take place, then you say _*at the* school_. Is that correct?  Or could you just have said _in school_ instead of _at school_ in your first sentence?


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## Ariel Knightly

Could you guys, please, tell me if I got it all right? 

*1)* "At the school where one studies or teaches during school hours when school is (classes are) in session" --> both *at *and *in *are possible

_Why don't you have the kids with you?
They're still *in*/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]

*2)* "A stage of life when one still attends a school" --> both *at *and *in *are possible

_What do you do?
I’m still *in*/*at *school._ [_At _would be more common in BrE than in AmE, right?]

*3)* "In the process of learning" --> both *at *and *in *are possible 

_She didn’t do very well *in*/*at *school. _[_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]

Are _*at *school_ in _*in *school_ always "interchangeable"? I mean, is it always a question of dialectal preference? 

Here I have some problematic sentences. Could you help me understand them? 

_Their son's *at the* school near the station._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_? Is that boy at that school right now? Does he study there?]
_He is the smartest child* in the* school. _[Why _the_? Would _in school_ or _at school_ be possible here?]
_I work* at*/*in this* school. _[I've been told that both _in _and _at _are possible here. Is that because of _this_?]
_There are over 500 students *at this* school._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_?]
_How do I ask someone *in** my *school for weed?_ [Could _at _be used instead of _in_?]


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## Loob

Hi Ariel

I can give you an answer from my own (BrE) perspective, but I imagine you speak AmE, so you'll need some further answers


Ariel Knightly said:


> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *in*/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]
> [...]
> _What do you do?
> I’m still *in*/*at *school._ [_At _would be more common in BrE than in AmE, right?]
> [...]
> _She didn’t do very well *in*/*at *school. _[_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]


I would expect "at" in all three.


Ariel Knightly said:


> Are _*at *school_ in _*in *school_ always "interchangeable"? I mean, is it always a question of dialectal preference?


I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect it is, for "at school"/"in school" - leaving aside the issue  that "school" can mean something different in AmE from in BrE.


Ariel Knightly said:


> _Their son's *at the* school near the station._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_? Is that boy at that school right now? Does he study there?]


I  wouldn't normally use "in".  The sentence could mean 'that's where he's located  right now'.  But in most situations, I'd expect it to mean 'that's where  he studies'. 


Ariel Knightly said:


> _He is the smartest child* in the* school. _[Why _the_? Would _in school_ or _at school_ be possible here?]


 I think it's partly because we usually use "in the X" after a superlative eg_ the smartest child in the world._  But it's also because we're talking about a particular school.


Ariel Knightly said:


> _I work* at*/*in this* school. _[I've been told that both _in _and _at _are possible here. Is that because of _this_?]
> _There are over 500 students *at this* school._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_?]
> _How do I ask someone *in** my *school for weed?_ [Could _at _be used instead of _in_?]


I could use both "at" and "in" in all of these.


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## Forero

For me the use of _in_ with _school_ concerns being within boundaries. For example:

In space (literally within a school building),
In time (within the part of one's life when one is matriculating),
In a group (among the students or faculty of an educational institution).

And the use of _at_ pertains to position. For example:

At a location (at the school building as a spot on a map, a place to meet),
Employed (at a job with the institution),
Attempting (working at achieving a goal).
Representing (as a member of a team or faculty).

Of course, I might be leaving something out. 




Ariel Knightly said:


> Could you guys, please, tell me if I got it all right?
> 
> *1)* "At the school where one studies or teaches during school hours when school is (classes are) in session" --> both *at *and *in *are possible
> 
> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *in*/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]
> I would choose _at_ here (They are at the location where I am to pick them up).
> 
> *2)* "A stage of life when one still attends a school" --> both *at *and *in *are possible
> 
> _What do you do?
> I’m still *in*/*at *school._ [_At _would be more common in BrE than in AmE, right?]
> I (AmE) would only use _in_ here.
> 
> *3)* "In the process of learning" --> both *at *and *in *are possible
> 
> _She didn’t do very well *in*/*at *school. _[_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]
> With _in_, the sentence is about a part of her life; with _at_, it might be about employment or about trying to get a degree.
> 
> Are _*at *school_ in _*in *school_ always "interchangeable"? I mean, is it always a question of dialectal preference?
> 
> Here I have some problematic sentences. Could you help me understand them?
> 
> _Their son's *at the* school near the station._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_? Is that boy at that school right now? Does he study there?]
> With _at_, this probably concerns location.  It may mean right now, or it may mean as a routine.  The speaker may mean to suggest he studies there, but I would need more context to tell that.
> _In_ could be used here too, but with different possible meanings.
> 
> _He is the smartest child* in the* school. _[Why _the_? Would _in school_ or _at school_ be possible here?]
> With _in_, this is referring to his place in the particular group.
> Other meanings would be possible with _at_.
> 
> _I work* at*/*in this* school. _[I've been told that both _in _and _at _are possible here. Is that because of _this_?]
> Both are possible here.  I would not use either here without a determiner (e.g. _this_, _the_, _her_).
> 
> _There are over 500 students *at this* school._ [Could _in _be used instead of _at_?] Yes.
> 
> _How do I ask someone *in** my *school for weed?_ [Could _at _be used instead of _in_?]
> Depending on what you mean, either preposition might fit here.


I hope this helps.


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## Ariel Knightly

Thank you very much, Loob and Forero. It's good to be able to see how things change from one dialect to another.


Forero said:


> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *in*/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]
> I would choose _at_ here (They are at the location where I am to pick them up).


Would that be just a matter of preference? Would _in _be impossible in this context?


Forero said:


> _How do I ask someone *in** my *school for weed?_ [Could _at _be used instead of _in_?]
> Depending on what you mean, either preposition might fit here.


What do you mean? How would _at my school_ be different from _in my school_ in this context?


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## MikeLynn

Hi, this thread is great because I've had a real problem with in/at school for a long time and I've leaned a lot here. I've always thought that, in AE, _in school _meant to be a student from legal, or whatever, point of view and _at school_ was used for being involved in an educational process, being in class, whether the student, or pupil was on a field trip, or anywhere else, but still being educated in some sort of way. However, I've read a few things lately, in grammar books published by Cambridge, that I found a bit confusing because they used IN where I would have expected AT; still AE. Could you possibly tell me how flexible this is? I mean if there are AT/IN situations in AE where these two prepositions are interchangeable. Thank you for your patience, time and for being so helpful.
M&L


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## MikeLynn

I'm really sorry if I missed something, but I sent my post as the last one on page 1; page 2 wasn't there at all. To my surprise I found out there were two pages about a minute later. I've had a lot of trouble with getting to WR lately, I've reported the problem and the only thing I know is that it cannot be my browser because both of my comps behave the same way - trouble loading pages, the pages are almost never loaded completely, missing icons on the left of the page etc. I'm writing this to explain why I might have missed some of the Page 2 information.
M&L

This is not a complaint, just an explanation of why I might have missed some of the information on Page 2 of the thread.


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## Forero

Ariel Knightly said:


> Forero said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still in/at school. I pick them up at three o'clock. [In would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]
> I would choose at here (They are at the location where I am to pick them up).
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be just a matter of preference? Would _in _be impossible in this context?
Click to expand...

I would feel uncomfortable using _in_ in this context, unless I meant _in_ as referring to a time in one's life.  If I heard someone else use _in_ here, I would assume from the context that _at_ was intended and the speaker was perhaps feeling anxious and being incautious with their choice of preposition.





> How do I ask someone in my school for weed? [Could at be used instead of in?]
> Depending on what you mean, either preposition might fit here.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean? How would _at my school_ be different from _in my school_ in this context?
Click to expand...

"Someone at my school" could refer to someone I meet at the school building, which overlaps with one plausible meaning of "someone in my school" (someone within the school building) in this context.  And "someone at my school" might also be referring to someone who is employed by the institution.


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## Ariel Knightly

Forero said:


> I would feel uncomfortable using _in_ in this context, unless I meant _in_ as referring to a time in one's life.  If I heard someone else use _in_ here, I would assume from the context that _at_ was intended and the speaker was perhaps feeling anxious and being incautious with their choice of preposition.


Jacinta used _in _in the following sentence. Is that because it means something like "in class" or would you have used _at _here again? 

_I can't talk to you now because I'm *in *school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)_


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## Forero

Ariel Knightly said:


> Jacinta used _in _in the following sentence. Is that because it means something like "in class" or would you have used _at _here again?
> 
> _I can't talk to you now because I'm *in *school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)_


I would have used _at_ here.


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## Ariel Knightly

Jacinta used _in _here again:


jacinta said:


> Children learn the basic educational subjects in  school.  The school my son attends offers many outside activities that  they don't offer in school.
> "In school" tells me that it is during school hours when school is (classes are) in session.


Is that something typical of the dialect spoken in California?


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## Forero

Ariel Knightly said:


> Jacinta used _in _here again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacinta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children learn the basic educational subjects in school.  The school my son attends offers many outside activities that they don't offer in school.
> "In school" tells me that it is during school hours when school is (classes are) in session.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that something typical of the dialect spoken in California?
Click to expand...

I should have looked at all of Jacinta's post.  That's one meaning of _in school_ that I missed:

In time (within the part of one's life when one is matriculating *or "at school during school hours"*),



jacinta said:


> I can't talk to you now because I'm in school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)


In the light of this addtional possible meaning, I don't see this sentence as unnatural.


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## Ariel Knightly

Forero said:


> In the light of this addtional possible meaning, I don't see this sentence as unnatural.


Then would _in _be okay for you in my first example?


Ariel Knightly said:


> *1)* "At the school where one studies or teaches *during school hours* when school is (classes are) in session" --> both *at *and *in *are possible
> 
> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still __*in*__/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?]


I can't understand the contrast between _in_, _at, _and _at the_ here:


jacinta said:


> I'm still *at *school; I'll be home at 5:00.
> 
> So, at school to me means the location of being at the school where I work.
> (...)
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *in *school (I'm working.  Classes are in session.)
> 
> They offer hot lunches *at *school but he prefers a bag lunch.
> 
> They are having a carnival *at the* school today. (refering to an activity outside of school hours)


It says _in school _means "at the school where one studies/works during school hours." It also says that _at the school _can mean "at the school where one studies/works outside of school hours." My question is: then what is the contrast between _in school_ and _at school_? Why did she use _at _in the examples in red? Would _in _be possible in the place of _at _in those sentences?


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## Forero

Ariel Knightly said:


> Then would _in _be okay for you in my first example?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ariel Knightly said:
> 
> 
> 
> *1)* "At the school where one studies or teaches *during school hours* when school is (classes are) in session" --> both *at *and *in *are possible
> 
> _Why don't you have the kids with you?
> They're still *in*/*at *school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ [_In _would be more common in AmE than in BrE, right?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion.

I have no trouble with _in school_ here: _The school my son attends offers many outside activities that they don't offer in school._

I accept it here too: _I can't talk to you now because I'm in school._

The first time I read "where one studies or teaches during school hours ...", I imagined it all modified "the school", and the context ("Why don't you have the kids with you?") suggests location (not with you), with a hint of the idea that it is time for kids to be out of school. That is why I said _in_ would not fit. 

But if I rearrange the modifiers and delete "or teaches", I can accept _in_:

*During school hours when school is (classes are) in session* at the school where one studies or teaches:

_Why don't you have the kids with you?
They're still in school. I pick them up at three o'clock._ 


> I can't understand the contrast between _in_, _at, _and _at the_ here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacinta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still *at* school; I'll be home at 5:00.
> 
> So, at school to me means the location of being at the school where I work.
> (...)
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *in* school (I'm working. Classes are in session.)
> 
> They offer hot lunches *at* school but he prefers a bag lunch.
> 
> They are having a carnival *at the* school today. (refering to an activity outside of school hours)
> 
> 
> 
> It says _in school _means "at the school where one studies/works during school hours." It also says that _at the school _can mean "at the school where one studies/works outside of school hours." My question is: then what is the contrast between _in school_ and _at school_? Why did she use _at _in the examples in red? Would _in _be possible in the place of _at _in those sentences?
Click to expand...

I'll take the sentences one at a time.

I'm still *at* school; I'll be home at 5:00. I agree that this _at_ refers to location (not at home) and _school_ with no article refers to the school where I study or teach. With _in_, this sentence would being saying I am studying at school during school hours.

I can't talk to you now because I'm *in* school. This sentence refers to time (not now). With _at_, it would be referring only to the location. Does it matter whether I am currently studying, or am I hesitant to talk any time I am in the building?

They offer hot lunches *at* school but he prefers a bag lunch. This sentence is about location. If it concerns time, it is about lunch time, not about study time. With _in_, it would seem to be saying they offer hot lunches there at study time.

They are having a carnival *at the* school today. This refers to location, irrespective of whether it is study time there for some people.

Rather than "at school during school hours", I would rather say "in school" can mean at school during study time, i.e. when students ought to be studying. I think it does not refer specifically to class time but it does refer to students' time rather than to the time teachers and other school employees are working.

I hope this helps.


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## Ariel Knightly

Forero said:


> I hope this helps.


It helps a lot. 

at school -> at the school where you study or teach
in school -> at school during study time
at the school -> ?

Does the use of the definite article in the following example imply that the speaker doesn't study in this school?

They are having a carnival *at the* school today.

You said that _at *the *school_ here "refers to location, irrespective of whether it is study time," but so does _at school_, right? So what would be the difference here?

 	 		 			 			 				If I got it right, the speaker in Jacinta's example was a teacher. Does that make any difference?

I can't talk to you now because I'm *in* school.


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## Forero

Ariel Knightly said:


> It helps a lot.
> 
> at school -> at the school where you study or teach
> in school -> at school during study time
> at the school -> ?
> 
> Does the use of the definite article in the following example imply that the speaker doesn't study in this school?
> 
> They are having a carnival *at the* school today.
> 
> You said that _at *the *school_ here "refers to location, irrespective of whether it is study time," but so does _at school_, right? So what would be the difference here?


When it refers to location, "the school" means the school building. It could be any school that has already been mentioned, or the school in the neighborhood where the speaker or the listener is or lives, or the school where the speaker or the listener or the children of one or the other studies or teaches or works.  (In other words, _the_ would have its usual meaning.) "At" here could mean outside or inside. "In" would have to mean inside.

In other contexts, "in the school" would not be referring to time. It could refer either to a specific school institution or to a particular group associated with it.





> If I got it right, the speaker in Jacinta's example was a teacher. Does that make any difference?
> 
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *in* school.


If I were a teacher, not a student, I might say "in class", but I would not say "in school" here.


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## Ariel Knightly

Forero said:


> When it refers to location, "the school" means the school building. It could be any school that has already been mentioned, or the school in the neighborhood where the speaker or the listener is or lives, or the school where the speaker or the listener or the children of one or the other studies or teaches or works.  (In other words, _the_ would have its usual meaning.) "At" here could mean outside or inside. "In" would have to mean inside.
> 
> In other contexts, "in the school" would not be referring to time. It could refer either to a specific school institution or to a particular group associated with it.If I were a teacher, not a student, I might say "in class", but I would not say "in school" here.


Thank you very much, Forero. I guess now I don't have any further questions. Sorry to have bothered you so much. Thank you again.


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## sevengem

What about this sentence?
How are you doing _____ school? In or at?


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## Cagey

I would ask _"How are you doing *at* school?"_

I speak American English.  Perhaps that makes a difference.  

Added: Here are some more and different opinions:
a son doing badly at school
she isn't doing well in school.


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## ribran

For me:

_How are you doing in school? _- How are your grades? 
_How are you doing at school?_ - How are things (in general) at school? (_It's more natural to say it this way_.)


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## EdisonBhola

After reading this long thread, I'm still not sure if I've understood the distinction between the different versions. Let's say if it's the *learning environment* that we're talking about:

"We need to work together to improve the learning environment *in/at* school."

In this context, would you use "in" or "at"?


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## Cagey

Speaking just for myself, I would probably say:
_
We need to work together to improve the learning environment *at* school._
We are talking about a particular school that we are involved in as teachers or students and so on.  This is the one I am most likely to use.​_
We need to work together to improve the learning environment *in* school. _
It might be the same as above, but it could also be a general statement made by people who are interested in improving schools in general.  I am a little doubtful about this.  I think that to express this idea, I would be more likely to say _'the learning environment *in* school*s*.' _​


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## Forero

I would expect the learning "environment" to have a lot to do with location and physical setup, so I agree with Cagey's "at school" or "in schools".


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## prudent260

I think it is fantastic that certain school districts are training their teachers so they can carry a weapon *in school.*
Two decades of mass shootings later, not much has changed in 'Gun Nation’

After reading this long thread, I am still mixed up with the sentence. It's from the Los Angeles times, so I suppose it is written in AE.

In school doesn't mean part of their life when they were studying because the sentence talks about a present event.
It could mean in the school buildings during school hours.

*Isn't at school better, which tells what they do and where they are? *They are employed by the school, and they can carry a gun when they are at school.

Thank you


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## Pedro y La Torre

I prefer ''in school'' here as it emphasizes ''on the school grounds''.


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## Forero

prudent260 said:


> I think it is fantastic that certain school districts are training their teachers so they can carry a weapon *in school.*
> Two decades of mass shootings later, not much has changed in 'Gun Nation’
> 
> After reading this long thread, I am still mixed up with the sentence. It's from the Los Angeles times, so I suppose it is written in AE.
> 
> In school doesn't mean part of their life when they were studying because the sentence talks about a present event.
> It could mean in the school buildings during school hours.
> 
> *Isn't at school better, which tells what they do and where they are? *They are employed by the school, and they can carry a gun when they are at school.
> 
> Thank you


Yes, "at school" would tell where the teachers are, but this sentence is more about where the guns can be carried: inside school buildings.


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## prudent260

Forero said:


> Ariel Knightly said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I got it right, the speaker in Jacinta's example was a teacher. Does that make any difference?
> I can't talk to you now because I'm *in* school.
> 
> 
> 
> *During school hours when school is (classes are) in session* at the school where one studies or teaches.
> If I were a teacher, not a student, I might say "in class", but I would not say "in school" here.
Click to expand...


I have several questions.

I think it is fantastic that certain school districts are training their teachers so they can carry a weapon *in school.*
1. The subject in the sentence is teachers. In previous responses, Forero mentioned that he would not say "in school" if he were a teacher when talking about location. If I want to emphasize 'inside the building during school hours', is it idiomatic to say I'm in school even though I'm not a student?

2. If I say, "...they can carry a weapon *in the school,"  *could it also emphasize 'on the school grounds' and imply they can only carry a gun outside school hours after students go home or on the weekend? 

3. If the subject changes, for example, 'Certain school districts allow police carry a gun *in school,*' is it better to use *in the school *or *in school*?
Police are not employees or students of a school, but they patrol the school during school hours. 

Muddled, I can't construct my questions better. Hope you can understand what I mean.
Thank you.


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## natkretep

'In school' emphasises location, as others have indicated. The omission of the article _the_ indicates that the focus is on the normal activity that goes on there (pupils learning or teachers teaching), and so teachers or pupils can be in school. Therefore:

1. it is not only pupils who can be 'in school'; teachers can be 'in school';
2. I agree with you that 'in the school' can suggest the school location outside of the context of teaching and learning;
3. police officers are outside of the context of teaching and learning and so I wouldn't use 'in school'; if there are security guards that are staff in the school, it might just be possible to say that they are 'armed in school'.


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## prudent260

natkretep said:


> 'In school' emphasises location, as others have indicated. The omission of the article _the_ indicates that the focus is on the normal activity that goes on there (pupils learning or teachers teaching), and so teachers or pupils can be in school. Therefore:
> 
> 1. it is not only pupils who can be 'in school'; teachers can be 'in school';
> 2. I agree with you that 'in the school' can suggest the school location outside of the context of teaching and learning;
> 3. police officers are outside of the context of teaching and learning and so I wouldn't use 'in school'; if there are security guards that are staff in the school, it might just be possible to say that they are 'armed in school'.



Thank you, natkretep, for clearing my doubts.  I am more confident about this now.




Forero said:


> For me the use of _in_ with _school_ concerns being within boundaries. For example:
> 
> In space (literally within a school building),
> In time (within the part of one's life when one is matriculating),
> In a group (among the students or faculty of an educational institution).
> 
> They've overcome bullying, homelessness, the loss of a parent, poverty and other obstacles to become leaders *in school *and their neighborhoods.
> She was one of the few girls* in school* who didn't spend time online.
> And the use of _at_ pertains to position. For example:
> 
> At a location (at the school building as a spot on a map, a place to meet),
> Employed (at a job with the institution),
> Attempting (working at achieving a goal).
> Representing (as a member of a team or faculty).



I can find several examples about 'in school' to be used to mean among the students, such as the sentences in blue.
However, 'at school' to mean representing a school as a member is elusive (the explanation in red).
I can't find an appropriate sentence online.
Could you help, please?


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## natkretep

I think Forero has tried to explain the situation when he said that it refers to boundaries - physical, but temporal and social.

'At school' can potentially refer to physical space, but I would say that 'in school' conveys that more strongly than 'at school'.


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## Michael_Goldman

panjandrum said:


> Amazingly, there seems to be general consensus in this thread.
> So I have picked at it, and I found a little bit that unravels, for me.
> 
> 
> Not so.
> The general usage here would definitely be "at school".
> 
> Parents with children at school ...... is the BE norm.
> Parents with children in school ..... sounds strange to me, but is perhaps the AE norm?
> 
> In fact, reflecting on this, "in school" really sounds strange to me in all contexts?



This is what I have just come across with in Pippi Longstocking: "... she had decided to do everything she could to make Pippi feel at home *IN* school." 

This is the reason I've started searching the forum to prove it is wrong or a misprint.

Now I have reconfirmed that it is just the AmE usage, and in BrE it should be "*AT* school" the way Raymond Murphy from Cambridge teaches in his grammar books as well as you said previously.


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## lingobingo

It’s fine. It means [when she was] in school / at school – rather than at home. You can say either. The context makes the meaning clear. More to the point, it would sound rather odd to say to make her feel *at home at school*!


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## Michael_Goldman

lingobingo said:


> It’s fine. It means [when she was] in school / at school – rather than at home. You can say either. The context makes the meaning clear. More to the point, it would sound rather odd to say to make her feel *at home at school*!



Do you imply the double "at" is odd, so the translator undertook a preposition interchange intentionally?


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## lingobingo

Yes (not that ‘preposition interchange’ is a natural term), that might have been a factor in the choice of preposition. But *in* school and *at* school can both be used to mean physically inside a school, which seems to be what’s meant in this case.


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## sitifan

*in the school *- under the roof of the school building (said of a person OR thing)
*at the school *- in or near the school building (said of a person OR thing)
*in school *- being educated in or at a school; occupied with being educated ( said of a person)
*at school -* located at a school; attending a class in a school (said of a person)
You can say that there is an auditorium in the school, but the auditorium is not in school or at school. You can say that there is a playground at the school, but the playground is not in school or at school. Auditoriums and playgrounds cannot be educated or attend classes.
In, At?


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## lingobingo

That’s not the whole picture. *At school* works in the same way as *at home* or *at work*.

I’ve lost my favourite pen. I think I must have left it at home/at school/at work. ​


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## PaulQ

*In* = inside/within.

*In* has a second meaning: In = during - this gives us "In school, we have to be quiet." = "during the time that we are [in attendance] at our school, we have to be quiet."

*At* = is purely locative. It is generally lexically empty: it indicates where or when something happens/is and that its subject is a place or [point in] time.

The meaning of "school" is dependent upon the context. It can refer to a specific educational establishment or the generality of any instance of an educational establishment.

So:
1. "We need to work together to improve the learning environment *in* school." A teacher or pupil is saying this to other teachers and or pupils about something that happens inside their school.

2a. "We need to work together to improve the learning environment *at* school." Someone is saying this something that happens for all schools.

2b. "We need to work together to improve the learning environment *at* school*s*." Someone is saying this about all schools.

Sometimes, it is hard to see any difference between 1 and 2.

To add more confusion: "at/in school" can also mean "partaking in education", e.g.

A [At B's home]: What do you do?
B: I am a bus driver
A: What does your son do?
B: He's at/in school. This is said even if the son is standing next to B.


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## sitifan

When we think of someone who is enrolled as a student, we use "in school". My five-year old will be in school for the first time this fall. Did you see that little kid running around in the neighbor's yard? Believe it or not, he's already in school. Summer is over. Now all the children are in school again. Paul! I hear you took a job with IBM after graduating from high school. -- No, actually I'm still in school. I'm attending the University of Wyoming. I'm just in California now for a week's vacation, so I'm not at school now. We think of someone who is physically present on the grounds of the school, whether outside or inside of the school, participating in the activities of the school, we use "at school". I wonder what Johnny is doing at school today. What kinds of things do you do at school? Do you play football at school? Where is your little daughter? -- She's at school. -- On Saturday? --Yes; they're at school rehearsing a play she's in. When we think of someone physically inside the school building, we use "in school" or "at school". Most students are in school at this hour of the day. Most students are at school at this hour of the day. (These illustrate usage in American English.)
In School, At School?


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## lingobingo

It’s probably worth pointing out that the usage almost certainly varies a bit between AE and BE – in a similar way to, for example, in the hospital/in hospital.


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## Myridon

lingobingo said:


> It’s probably worth pointing out that the usage almost certainly varies a bit between AE and BE – in a similar way to, for example, in the hospital/in hospital.


School and church work the same way in American English as they do in British English. We don't use "in/at hospital" and we say "in/at college" instead of "in/at university."


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## Michael_Goldman

sitifan said:


> When we think of someone who is enrolled as a student, we use "in school". My five-year old will be in school for the first time this fall. Did you see that little kid running around in the neighbor's yard? Believe it or not, he's already in school. Summer is over. Now all the children are in school again. Paul! I hear you took a job with IBM after graduating from high school. -- No, actually I'm still in school. I'm attending the University of Wyoming. I'm just in California now for a week's vacation, so I'm not at school now. We think of someone who is physically present on the grounds of the school, whether outside or inside of the school, participating in the activities of the school, we use "at school". I wonder what Johnny is doing at school today. What kinds of things do you do at school? Do you play football at school? Where is your little daughter? -- She's at school. -- On Saturday? --Yes; they're at school rehearsing a play she's in. When we think of someone physically inside the school building, we use "in school" or "at school". Most students are in school at this hour of the day. Most students are at school at this hour of the day. (These illustrate usage in American English.)
> In School, At School?


I read a lot of American writers' books. All the time you see 'in school' in their books. However, had it been written by British authors, in BrE it would have been 'at school' in all those places.


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## PaulQ

Michael_Goldman said:


> However, had it been written by British authors, in BrE it would have been 'at school' in all those places.


That is simply not so. The article you link to simply says that the examples are AE - it does not say that they are not BE.


----------

