# éste / este es mi hijo



## vicksanders

I hit reply because I don't know how to start a new thread.  Anyway, I need to ask a question about este es and éste es.   I see both used in the same books and they mean "this is.........."  
  This is my son "éste es mi hijo".  Why do I say este without the accent???  I realise that the accent is omitted from the E when it is capitalised.  But I don't understand when it's omitted otherwise.  Please help.
  It surely should be simple:
  esta- this =  demonstrative adjective. e.g. esta galleta es muy deliciosa

  ésta- this, thing = demonstrative pronoun. e.g. éste es mi hijo


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## mhp

vicksanders said:


> I hit reply because I don't know how to start a new thread.  Anyway, I need to ask a question about este es and éste es.   I see both used in the same books and they mean "this is.........."
> This is my son "éste es mi hijo".  Why do I say este without the accent???  I realise that the accent is omitted from the E when it is capitalised.  But I don't understand when it's omitted otherwise.  Please help.
> It surely should be simple:
> esta- this =  demonstrative adjective. e.g. esta galleta es muy deliciosa
> 
> ésta- this, thing = demonstrative pronoun. e.g. éste es mi hijo



A written accent mark is never omitted because of capitalization. Capital letters are written with or without accent marks the same as small case letters.

In general,  as you have noted, demonstrative pronouns are written with an accent mark and  demonstrative adjectives are written without an accent mark. However, in a somewhat confusing rule, the RAE says that if there is no possibility of confusing the two forms, they should be written without an accent mark. Hence, you'd write:

_«Y este es mi hijo»_

since an adjective can never modify a verb. But:Así, en una oración como la del ejemplo siguiente, únicamente la presencia o ausencia de la tilde en el demostrativo permite interpretar correctamente el enunciado: ¿Por qué compraron aquéllos libros usados? (aquéllos es el sujeto de la oración); ¿Por qué compraron aquellos libros usados? (el sujeto de esta oración no está expreso, y aquellos acompaña al sustantivo libros).
(DPD)​


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## vicksanders

Gracias for trying to understand my predicament.  You state quite categorically that "A written accent mark is never omitted because of capitalization. Capital letters are written with or without accent marks the same as small case letters"
  BUT this is not the case in book after book that I read.  The accent is so often omitted from the capital letter.  In the same dialogue I have read "Esta es mi hija y éste es mi hijo".  This I can accept.
  I am just confused about the fact that some books omit the accent and some books, stating the exact same dialogue, include the accent.
  I don't understand your last paragraph in Spanish.  Please can you help me further?  Gracias.  victoria


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## mhp

vicksanders said:


> You state quite categorically that "A written accent mark is never omitted because of capitalization. Capital letters are written with or without accent marks the same as small case letters"
> BUT this is not the case in book after book that I read.  The accent is so often omitted from the capital letter.  In the same dialogue I have read "Esta es mi hija y éste es mi hijo".  This I can accept.



Unfortunately, there is some truth in what you say. Unfortunate not because you have said it, but unfortunate in that some Spanish speakers believe that there is, or there ever was, such a rule. These people tend to write in all capital letters, thinking that they are using this supposed rule to avoid writing the accent marks correctly.

Since there are many people who mistakenly think that there is such a rule, the RAE has explicitly pointed out that this is a misconception:*Tilde en las mayúsculas*  Las  letras mayúsculas deben escribirse con tilde si les corresponde llevarla  según las reglas de acentuación gráfica del español, tanto si se trata  de palabras escritas en su totalidad con mayúsculas como si se trata  únicamente de la mayúscula inicial: 
_Su  hijo se llama Ángel. 
  ADMINISTRACIÓN
  ATENCIÓN, POR FAVOR._
  La Real  Academia Española nunca ha establecido una norma en sentido contrario.
  La  acentuación gráfica de las letras mayúsculas no es opcional, sino  obligatoria, y afecta a cualquier tipo de texto. Las únicas mayúsculas  que no se acentúan son las que forman parte de las siglas; así, _CIA_  (sigla del inglés _Central Intelligence Agency_) no lleva tilde,  aunque el hiato entre la vocal cerrada tónica y la vocal abierta átona  exigiría, según las reglas de acentuación, tildar la _i_. 
(RAE)
​


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## vicksanders

Hello again.  I accept this confusion about the accents on and off the capital letter.  The double standards.  BUT are you able to answer the following from my original query??
I* am just confused about the fact that some books omit the accent and some books, stating the exact same dialogue, include the accent.
I don't understand your last paragraph in Spanish. Please can you help me further? Gracias. victoria*


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## mhp

vicksanders said:


> Hello again.  I accept this confusion about the accents on and off the capital letter.  The double standards.  BUT are you able to answer the following from my original query??
> I* am just confused about the fact that some books omit the accent and some books, stating the exact same dialogue, include the accent.
> I don't understand your last paragraph in Spanish. Please can you help me further? Gracias. victoria*



Only with respect to demonstrative adjectives and pronouns, as well some other words such as sólo/solo, the appearance or lack of the accent mark has to do mostly with publication date. The rule that I mentioned before has changed at least twice. I don't have the exact dates, but in the last two revisions of the spelling issued by the RAE, first, appearance or absence of the written accent mark was declared optional if there was no risk of confusion. In the latest revision of rules, the RAE has used a stronger language, saying that such accent marks should not be written if there is no risk of confusion.

For the latest rules, you can consult this article in the DPD. Section 3.2.1 specificaly talks about _Demostrativos._

PS. The last paragraph in my previous message says what I had said before: accent marks over capital letters are not optional. They must be written or not as if they were lower case letters.


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## vicksanders

Estoy de acuerdo.  No estoy contenta!!!  OH WELL.  Some things will never be resolved and one just has to accept things 'as is'.  It's very frustrating and I hate mixed messages in books.  I hate it when the books do not even explain why the accent is omitted from the capital letter, and yet it's on the small case letter within the sentence.  Esto es vida..........................Muchas gracias for all your help.


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## wwv

vicksanders said:


> Estoy de acuerdo.  No estoy contenta!!!  OH WELL.  Some things will never be resolved and one just has to accept things 'as is'.  It's very frustrating and I hate mixed messages in books.  I hate it when the books do not even explain why the accent is omitted from the capital letter, and yet it's on the small case letter within the sentence.  Esto es vida..........................Muchas gracias for all your help.



This may or may not be pertinent, but I once heard a teacher explain this issue (he offered no documentation) as due to the nature of early moveable type.  Each letter was carved on a small block of wood or cast on a small block of metal (lead?), and some makers of these letters didn't feel--whether for aesthetic or for practical reasons--that there was room on the block for both the capital  letter and the accent mark, and for reasons that had nothing to do with pronunciation, a practice was introduced and spread, setting a model that others accepted and followed, even when they might have had the technology to do it "correctly". It may be an apocryphal explanation, but it's an interesting theory at least.


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## chileno

Forgetting about capital letters.

Accent is used to avoid ambiguity.

I am not good with grammar, but I think the following could be a case.

Al este de este. (To the East of this one) so "al este de éste" straightens the whole thing up.


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## popckorn

chileno said:


> Al este de este. (To the East of this one) so "al este de éste" straightens the whole thing up.




Simple illustrative practical case. Thank you.


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## chileno

Aunque me gustaba más cuando tenía acento sí o sí, excepto el punto cardinal.


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## autrex2811

vicksanders said:


> I hit reply because I don't know how to start a new thread.  Anyway, I need to ask a question about este es and éste es.   I see both used in the same books and they mean "this is.........."
> This is my son "éste es mi hijo".  Why do I say este without the accent???  I realise that the accent is omitted from the E when it is capitalised.  But I don't understand when it's omitted otherwise.  Please help.
> It surely should be simple:
> esta- this =  demonstrative adjective. e.g. esta galleta es muy deliciosa
> 
> ésta- this, thing = demonstrative pronoun. e.g. éste es mi hijo



Se usa porque al decir "éste es mi hijo", la palabra "éste" funge como un pronombre demostrativo; y puede ir antes o después del verbo , o bien, solo:

Mi casa *es ésta* / *ésta es* mi casa
No *es éste* sino *aquél* / *aquél es*, no* éste*
*Aquéllos son* mis compañeros / mis compañeros *son aquéllos*.

Pero "*esto, eso y aquello*" jamás se acentúan.

Todavía en algunos lados se conserva muy viva esa ortografía y no es opcional como en algunos libros he leído. Por ejemplo, no es lo mismo "este vino" que "éste vino".
Saludos.


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## Peterdg

autrex2811 said:


> Se usa porque al decir "éste es mi hijo", la palabra "éste" funge como un pronombre demostrativo; y puede ir antes o después del verbo , o bien, solo:
> 
> Mi casa *es ésta* / *ésta es* mi casa
> No *es éste* sino *aquél* / *aquél es*, no* éste*
> *Aquéllos son* mis compañeros / mis compañeros *son aquéllos*.
> 
> Pero "*esto, eso y aquello*" jamás se acentúan.
> 
> Todavía en algunos lados se conserva muy viva esa ortografía y no es opcional como en algunos libros he leído. Por ejemplo, no es lo mismo "este vino" que "éste vino".
> Saludos.


Autrex,

El problema es que en la última edición de la ortografía de la RAE (2010), se recomienda *nunca* tildar "este", "esta", "estos" y "solo".


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## chileno

autrex2811 said:


> Por ejemplo, no es lo mismo "este vino" que "éste vino".
> Saludos.



¿Me puedes explicar cuál es la diferencia?


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## autrex2811

Peterdg said:


> Autrex,
> 
> El problema es que en la última edición de la ortografía de la RAE (2010), se recomienda *nunca* tildar "este", "esta", "estos" y "solo".



Es que no nos pueden tirar una costumbre ortográfica así sin más. Eso es lo que ellos dicen y recomiendan, pero no tan fácil se puede terminar con ello. Es como si dijeran que después habría que desaparecer el acento en "mí, sí, él". Ellos dirán que nunca se han de acentuar los tales vocablos, pero resulta tan descomunal como "sicología o setiembre" en lugar de "psicología y septiembre". Y no van a poder tirarnos esa costumbre y tradición ortográfica. En México, al menos, así se sigue enseñando, ni modo.

Saludos.


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## JennyTW

Si. "Este vino" significa "this wine" mientras que "éste vino" significa "he (this man) came".


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## autrex2811

chileno said:


> ¿Me puedes explicar cuál es la diferencia?



Este vino --- esta bebida que es vino tinto, rosado, el que sea.
Éste vino --- (persona o ser de género masculino) vino (del verbo venir).


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## chileno

Jenny and Autrex:

Gracias, siempre me olvido de eso....y como estuve como 25 años acentoless, yo ya no sé.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, everyone.

It seems to me that the rules governing the use of graphic accents (_tildes_) in Spanish are disarmingly simple:

1. non-stressed word —> no accent (e.g. demonstrative _adjectives _carry no stress as they're pronounced together with the following noun:
_esta galleta es muy deliciosa  _/estaɣa'ʎeta/ 

2. stressed word —> accent (e.g. demonstrative pronouns carry stress as they're not pronounced together with the following noun:_

éste es mi hijo _/'este es mi'iχo/

GS


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## _SantiWR_

Hi Giorgio, I'm afraid that's a very misguided explanation. The word "este" is never unestressed and, according to the current spelling rules, it never carries an accent mark.


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## autrex2811

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hullo, everyone.
> 
> It seems to me that the rules governing the use of graphic accents (_tildes_) in Spanish are disarmingly simple:
> 
> 1. non-stressed word —> no accent (e.g. demonstrative _adjectives _carry no stress as they're pronounced together with the following noun:
> _esta galleta es muy deliciosa  _/estaɣa'ʎeta/
> 
> 2. stressed word —> accent (e.g. demonstrative pronouns carry stress as they're not pronounced together with the following noun:_
> 
> éste es mi hijo _/'este es mi'iχo/
> 
> GS



Yes, you are right when saying "*Éste es* mi hijo", for the word "éste" is a pronoun and can be before, after the verb or just alone. That is why it carries an accent. But, on the other hand it is not accentuated when having the meaning of a demonstrative adjective *"Este niño". *Pronunciation does not have anything to do in this case. You can go to this site just to check some excellent examples of Spanish demonstrative pronouns: http://roble.pntic.mec.es/acid0002/index_archivos/Gramatica/pronombres_demostrativos.htm
Best wishes.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hola.

Santi says: _"The word "este" is never unstressed and, according to the current spelling rules, it never carries an accent mark."
_autrex says_: "Éste es mi hijo", for the word "éste" is a pronoun..."_ and _"..."it is not accentuated when having the meaning of a demonstrative adjective "Este niño."

_What can the poor foreigner think? 

Saludos.

GS


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## autrex2811

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hola.
> 
> Santi says: _"The word "este" is never unstressed and, according to the current spelling rules, it never carries an accent mark."
> _autrex says_: "Éste es mi hijo", for the word "éste" is a pronoun..."_ and _"..."it is not accentuated when having the meaning of a demonstrative adjective "Este niño."
> 
> _What can the poor foreigner think?
> 
> Saludos.
> 
> GS



The problem is that if you totally omit the written accent, you do get confused with sentences like these:

Estos vestidos (these dresses)
Éstos vestidos (these dressed people)
Éste vino (he / this man came)
Este vino (this wine)
Aquéllos tocados (Those nuts or crazy people)
Aquellos tocados (those headdresses)

Thus, accent is needed.

Best,


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## _SantiWR_

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> Hola.
> 
> Santi says: _"The word "este" is never unstressed and, according to the current spelling rules, it never carries an accent mark."
> _autrex says_: "Éste es mi hijo", for the word "éste" is a pronoun..."_ and _"..."it is not accentuated when having the meaning of a demonstrative adjective "Este niño."
> 
> _What can the poor foreigner think?
> 
> Saludos.
> 
> GS



autrex is right, but he forgot to explain that the rule he's talking about is not in use any more. So if you want to spell following the current rules just don't put an accent mark. The reason for the change is simple: as a general rule Spanish doesn't use accent marks to tell appart different meanings. That's why vino (verb) and vino (noun) are spelled the same. Accent marks are driven by pronounciation and speech stress, not meaning.


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## autrex2811

_SantiWR_ said:


> autrex is right, but he forgot to explain that the rule he's talking about is not in use any more. So if you want to spell following the current rules just don't put an accent mark. The reason for the change is simple: as a general rule Spanish doesn't use accent marks to tell appart different meanings. That's why vino (verb) and vino (noun) are spelled the same. Accent marks are driven by pronounciation and speech stress, not meaning.



¡Qué buen vino trajo Javier de su viaje a París! *Este vino*... ¡Qué malo que no regresará hasta el otro mes!... Pero, ¡qué buen vino es!
¡Qué buen vino trajo...!* Éste vino*... ¡Qué malo que no regresará hasta el otro mes!... Pero, ¡qué buen vino es!

¿Son lo mismo a su / tu parecer? Y no tengo más contexto que lo que tengo allá arriba escrito. En lengua hablada sí podríamos dar detalles, pero en lo que se lee, no.

Saludos.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

_


_SantiWR_ said:



			autrex is right, but he forgot to explain that the rule he's talking about is not in use any more. So if you want to spell following the current rules just don't put an accent mark. The reason for the change is simple: as a general rule Spanish doesn't use accent marks to tell apØart different meanings. That's why vino (verb) and vino (noun) are spelled the same. Accent marks are driven by pronounciation and speech stress, not meaning.
		
Click to expand...

_
If the foreign learner reads:

"_So if you want to spell following the current rules just don't put an accent mark" _he may be encouraged to believe that, following a (recent?) reform, written accents have been banned by the "todopoderosa" Academia.

Then, if he reads:
_"... as a general rule Spanish doesn't use accent marks to tell appart different meanings...",_ he will be able to infer that accents _are_ used in Spanish. 

Finally, when reading "... _Accent marks are driven by pronounciation and _speech stress_, not meaning..." _he'll be reassured that not only do written accents exist but also are used to distinguish — in a couple of homographs — la palabra que, debido a su significación y a su funcion sintáctica en la frase, se halla siempre en una posición de *relieve* y, por lo tanto, llevan siempre un *acento* (= _stress_) *fuerte* en el ritmo de la frase: pronómbre sujeto, formas tónicas de pronombres complemento, adverbios, sustantivos, palabras interrogativas y exclamativas, etc.

(Neither "vino 1" nor "vino 2" belongs to the category of words with "*acento* (= _stress_) *fuerte".

*GS* *


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## _SantiWR_

Hi again Giorgio. Honestly, I have no idea what are you getting at, but I think I made my point quite clear: since 2010 the word "este" never carries an accent mark and when it used to, it wasn't because of a stressed/unstressed dichotomy like the one in mi/mí, se/sé, te/té, etc. In RAE's words:



> Sin embargo, ese empleo tradicional de la tilde en el adverbio _solo_  y los pronombres demostrativos no cumple el requisito fundamental que  justifica el uso de la tilde diacrítica, que es el de oponer palabras  tónicas o acentuadas a palabras átonas o inacentuadas formalmente  idénticas, ya que *tanto solo como los demostrativos son siempre  palabras tónicas en cualquiera de sus funciones*. Por eso, a partir de  ahora se podrá prescindir de la tilde en estas formas incluso en casos  de ambigüedad. La recomendación general es, pues, *no tildar nunca estas palabras*.
> 
> Las  posibles ambigüedades pueden resolverse casi siempre por el propio contexto comunicativo  (lingüístico o extralingüístico), en función del cual solo suele ser  admisible una de las dos opciones interpretativas. Los casos reales en  los que se produce una ambigüedad que el contexto comunicativo no es  capaz de despejar son raros y rebuscados, y siempre pueden evitarse por  otros medios, como el empleo de sinónimos (_solamente_ o _únicamente,_ en el caso del adverbio _solo_),  una puntuación adecuada, la inclusión de algún elemento que impida el  doble sentido o un cambio en el orden de palabras que fuerce una única  interpretación.


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