# Hindi/Urdu: where/there



## linguist786

I was just wondering if there is any difference between /kahaaN/ and /kidhar/ (where?) and /wahaaN/ and /udhar/ (there). Are they totally synonymous?

I always say /kahaaN/ and /wahaaN/ for some reason. At first I thought the other two were used by Punjabi-speakers and were hence a Punjabi influence, but it can't be because I hear non-Punjabi-speakers saying it too.

Lets take examples:

/woh kyuuN wahaaN gayaa?/ (why has he gone there?)

is it exactly the same as:

/woh kyuuN udhar gayaa?/

How about:

/woh kahaaN hai?/ (where is he?)

is it exactly the same as:

/woh kidhar hai?/

?


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## linguist786

panjabigator said:


> I'd say that the only difference is in softness; kahaan has a much softer sound than does kidhar.


That's what I had in mind too! It sounds more "polite", in a way.

I thought you would come along with some deep grammatical explanation stating the instances when one can be used and not the other  - thank god.


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## albondiga

linguist786 said:


> I was just wondering if there is any difference between /kahaaN/ and /kidhar/ (where?) and /wahaaN/ and /udhar/ (there). Are they totally synonymous?


 
Wow, I had been planning on asking this EXACT same question the next time I logged on to the WRF, and now I log on and here it is!

Of the two major sources I have been using to learn Hindi so far, one used exclusively *kidhar/idhar/udhar*, and the other used exclusively *kahaaN/yahaaN/wahaaN*... The one that used kidhar, etc. generally used more formal language, but I understand from the discussion on this so far in this thread that this is not really the distinction in this instance...

Linguist: what's the case in Gujarati?


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## linguist786

albondiga said:


> Wow, I had been planning on asking this EXACT same question the next time I logged on to the WRF, and now I log on and here it is!


Les grands ésprits se rencontrent.. 



> Linguist: what's the case in Gujarati?


There's only one word for them, funnily:

where? - ક્યાં (kyaaN)
here - અહીં (ahiiN) - pronounced "aee" usually
there - ત્યાં (tyaaN)


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## albondiga

Does one of these words come from Sanskrit and the other from Arabic?  Does anyone know the etymology?


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## panjabigator

Platts Urdu Dictionary is available online to check etymologies.  I can't do it now, but if you search I'm sure you'll find something.


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## panjabigator

By the way, my guess is that they are all of Sanskritic descent.


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## Qureshpor

kahaaN means "At what place?" where as "kidhar" means "In which direction?". However, I doubt if many people differentiate the meaning in their ordinary speech!

Qureshpor


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> kahaaN means "At what place?" where as "kidhar" means "In which direction?". However, I doubt if many people differentiate the meaning in their ordinary speech!
> 
> Qureshpor



Are there any idiomatic ways in which the two are distinguished? Is there any particular phrase where only one version is used?


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## panjabigator

You've just answered a really important question for me, QP Sahib. This has bugged me for a while.

I was told in an anthropology class once that the Punjabi "kiddhar" and "kitthe" were different for semiotic reasons, viz. "kiddhar" has an indexical value or "points" to something. I see now that this is directional. Thank you for this. 

Does the "dhar" part of "kiddhar" have any meaning that we can parse out? Maybe something like "ki(s) dhar" to get "in which direction?"

If we were to extend this to include "iddhar" and "itthe," where would "ure" stand in?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> You've just answered a really important question for me, QP Sahib. This has bugged me for a while.
> 
> I was told in an anthropology class once that the Punjabi "kiddhar" and "kitthe" were different for semiotic reasons, viz. "kiddhar" has an indexical value or "points" to something. I see now that this is directional. Thank you for this.
> 
> Does the "dhar" part of "kiddhar" have any meaning that we can parse out? Maybe something like "ki(s) dhar" to get "in which direction?"
> 
> If we were to extend this to include "iddhar" and "itthe," where would "ure" stand in?



 I would say, kitthe = ki(s)+thaaN+ ute whereas I thought "kidhar" would be ki(s) + or. In English there is a set which, apart from "hitherto" is hardly ever used.

hither/thither/whither (=idhar/udhar/kidhar)

O.E. _þider_ "to or toward that place," altered (by infl. of its opposite _hider_) of earlier _þæder_ "to that place," from P.Gmc. _*thadra-_(cf. O.N. _þaðra_ "there"), from _*tha_ (see that) + PIE suffix denoting motion toward (cf. Goth. _-dre_, Skt. _-tra_). The medial _-th-_developed in M.E. but was rare before 1525 (cf. gather, murder, burden).

Regarding "ure" (I would say "uraaN" in Punjabi and "vare" in Urdu), see the following thread started by a certain Qureshpor!

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2172989&highlight=pare

pare (paraaN) = away (from) [pare/paraaN haT]
vare (uraaN) = towards [uraaN aa]


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> Are there any idiomatic ways in which the two are distinguished? Is there any particular phrase where only one version is used?


Bearing in mind the recent "Hindii kii kitaabeN" thread, this might be a good place to discuss idhar vs yahaaN (or udhar vs vahaaN/kidhar vs kahaaN/jidhar vs jahaaN or even tidhar vs tahaaN). Examples of usage where two sets may be identical in meaning or where there are clear differences would be useful to record.


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## greatbear

"idhar aanaa" = "yahaaN aanaa"
"idhar kuchh na milne vaala tujh ko" = "yahaan ..."
"aaj ham yahaaN isliye ikaTThe hue haiN" = "aaj ham idhar ..."
"o bhai, kyaa chal rahaa hai idhar?" = "... yahaaN?"

In short, I can't think of examples where a "yahaaN" can be used but "idhar" cannot. They seem to be perfect synonyms.


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## Wolverine9

Can anyone think of examples where there are clear differences?


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## greatbear

QP and marrish ought to, as according to them they are not synonyms. I am also living in hope.


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## tonyspeed

Wolverine9 said:


> Can anyone think of examples where there are clear differences?




Here is where it pays not to be too bookish.

Even over a hundred years ago, they were used as synonyms. Maybe if one goes 1000 years ago, we can find a more solid distinction.

Platts:

H ادهرइधरidhar [S. इतस्], adv. *Here*, hither, on this side, this way:

I think the distinction may be if any, that idhar and udhar *ALSO* mean "in that/this direction" where as vahaaN and yahaaN can never mean that. So if your intention is to say "go in that direction" (as opposed to "go there") one might be able to say "udhar jaao" (and maybe _us/is or_? _us/is taraf_?) but not "vahaaN jaao" which would simply mean go to that spot. But GB-sahib would have to be able to confirm this.


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## greatbear

If I deliberately want to say "go in that direction", I would say "us taraf jaao"/"us dishaa meN jaao". "udhar jaao" = "vahaaN jaao"; "idhar aao" = "yahaaN aao"; and "kidhar chale" = "kahaaN chale". Idhar might or might not mean originally "in this direction"; however, its usage is perfectly synonymous with "yahaaN" - same situation for "udhar"/"vahaaN" and "kidhar"/"kahaaN".

A more suitable example to quell all such "direction" queries would be: "Aaj ham sab idhar ikaTThaa hue haiN ..." - one cannot mean "we have assembled in this direction" here. It can only mean "we have assembled *here*" - and in this sentence, as in others, idhar and yahaaN are replaceable with each other.


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## Chhaatr

Here basically you have two questions in play.  

1. What you have been taught
2. What you hear everyday all around you

To answer the first question, idhar/udhar are associated with direction whereas yahaaN/wahaaN refer to a spot or a place.

As for question 2, the reality is quite different.  These words are used inter-changeably without any thought.  To be frank, I only realised now that I have been using these words instinctively without much application of rules of grammar.

To give an example:

Person A (in Delhi to person B in Bangalore) : Boss, yahaaN kab aa rahe ho? (technically right, based on what one is taught)
Person B : Yaar, abhii koii chance nahiiN.  Tum hii idhar kaa chakkar lagaa lo. (nothing wrong with this as well since such usage is widespread)

I would leave you to make a choice.


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## UrduMedium

I think the difference may be there but it is very subtle. idhar is more physical/geographical than yahaaN, which can be used in a virtual sense. 

For example, a teacher can tell the student, "page number 44 par jaao aur wahaaN se paRhnaa shuruu karo". Replacing wahaaN with udhar in this sentence would sound a bit off to my ears. Perhaps not wrong but still unfamiliar. For physical ("locational") references I think the two would sound the same to my ears.

^ Excellent nuance identified in #18 above by Chhaatr.


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## Chhaatr

UrduMedium said:


> I think the difference may be there but it is very subtle. idhar is more physical/geographical than yahaaN, which can be used in a virtual sense.
> 
> For example, a teacher can tell the student, "page number 44 par jaao aur wahaaN se paRhnaa shuruu karo". Replacing wahaaN with udhar in this sentence would sound a bit off to my ears. Perhaps not wrong but still unfamiliar. For physical ("locational") references I think the two would sound the same to my ears.



You are right.  In this example "udhar" would be acceptable only if the teacher was pointing towards the paragraph or the sentence as well otherwise it should be "wahaaN", atleast for me.


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## greatbear

For me, "udhar se paRhnaa shuruu karo" is also fine; that is, if someone were to say it, I wouldn't even notice it.


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## Qureshpor

Let us once again set the scene as accurately as possible so that the “Chinese whispers” do not become “Lies, damned lies and...”.  This is how it all began.


marrish said:


> _jii, ko'ii baat nahiiN, is meN aap ko Hindi kii bahut saarii kitaabeN mileN gii._


This drew the following dialogue:

_is_ _meN_ _idhar_ _aap__ ko Hindi __kii_ _meN_ _bahut saarii kitaabeN __mileNgii__._



greatbear said:


> "Idhar" or "yahaaN" are the appropriate words here.





marrish said:


> Are you trying to say that a native speaker would say ''*idhar*''? No! Only ''*yahaaN*'' is appropriate, which you have added on second thought.


In response to this particular issue, I said:


QURESHPOR said:


> idhar and yahaaN are generally used synonymously in casual speech. However “idhar” means “In this direction” or “Over here” (cf. English hither, thither and whither for our idhar, tidhar and kidhar) whereas “yahaaN” is “at this place”.


Now returning to this particular thread which is almost six years old, the OP had the following enquiry:


linguist786 said:


> I was just wondering if there is any difference between /kahaaN/ and /kidhar/ (where?) and /wahaaN/ and /udhar/ (there). Are they totally synonymous?


Two years ago, I made the following response:


QURESHPOR said:


> kahaaN means "At what place?" where as "kidhar" means "In which direction?". However, I doubt if many people differentiate the meaning in their ordinary speech!


TS had posed a question (on 06/09/2012) to which no one had replied to. Considering that this topic had come up recently, I thought this thread would be a good place to have a civilised discussion.


QURESHPOR said:


> Bearing in mind the recent "Hindii kii kitaabeN" thread, this might be a good place to discuss idhar vs yahaaN (or udhar vs vahaaN/kidhar vs kahaaN/jidhar vs jahaaN or even tidhar vs tahaaN). Examples of usage where two sets may be identical in meaning or where there are clear differences would be useful to record.



I am pleased to see several responses which is quite heartening, especially Chhaatr SaaHib’s post. What I propose to show is that the directional meaning was n’t just in vogue a 1000 years ago but is used today as well. What does Ruth Laila Schmidt, author of “Urdu-An Essential Grammar” has to say about this? When talking about idhar, udhar and kidhar she writes and I quote:

“This set of adverbs describes movement towards a place, *idhar* means “hither”, “here”, *udhar* means “thither”, ”there” and *kidhar *means “whither”, “where”, To a certain extent, the adverbs describing location: *yahaaN*, *vahaaN* and *kahaaN* are also used to describe movement, thus acquiring some of the functions of this set”. She then provides several examples but I shall only quote one. The translation in English is hers.

“*udhar* se poliis vaale aa rahe the, *idhar* se chor bhaag gayaa.”

“The police came from t*hat side* (as) the thief fled from *this side*”.

A few literary examples:

gul phaiNke hai auroN kii taraf balkih samar bhii
ai xaanah bar andaaz-i-chaman, kuchh to *idha*r bhii

Sauda (1713-1781)

You throw flowers towards others and indeed fruit too
O plunderer of the garden, some at least *over here* too 
.......

The first few lines have been given to provide context.

havaa bhii xushgavaar hai
guloN pih bhii nikhaar hai
tarannum-i-hazaar hai
bahaar pur-bahaar hai
kahaaN chalaa hai saaqiyaa

The air is sweet and pleasant
The flowers are very elegant
The nightingale is singing
The spring is in full swing
Saaqii, where are you off to?

*idhar* to lauT, *idhar* to aa
are yih dekhtaa hai kyaa
uThaa subuu subuu uThaa
subuu uThaa piyaalah bhar
piyaalah bhar ke de *idhar
*
Come back here, come *over here*
Why are you looking so surprised?
Lift the pitcher, yes lift the jug
Lift the jug and fill the mug
Fill the mug and pass it *over* *here*

Hafeez Jalandhari (1900-1982)

.....................

paRii mujh pih un kii nazar mere Rama
du3aa’eN hu’iiN kaar-gar mere Rama
vuh aaNkheN jo aksar *udhar* dekhtii thiiN
vuh aaNkheN uThiiN haiN *idhar* mere Rama

Raj Kumar “Qais”

I don’t think, I need to provide a translation here apart from the fact that “kaar-gar” means “effective”.

Here is idiomatic usage of the words “idhar” and udhar”.

*idhar* kaaTe *udhar* palaT jaa’e

This is an idiom and this is how it is explained.

“chuuNkih saaNp kaaTte hii palaT jaataa hai is liye yih misal us muuzii kii nisbat kahte haiN”

(Because as soon as a snake bites it retreats, this idiom is used in relation to that obnoxious creature)

Around 1820, Robert Southey (an English poet) wrote a poem entitled "The Cataract of Lodore". In response to this Akbar Ilahabadi (an Urdu poet) wrote a moving nazm bearing the title “aab-i-loDor”. Here are two couplets from it. The subject is of course water. For the full poem, visit the site below.

https://groups.google.com/group/alt...e7c?hl=en-GB&lnk=gst&q=idhar#2d7610e676280e7c

*idhar* phuultaa aur pichaktaa *udhar *
rux is samt kartaa, khisaktaa *udhar 
*
Swelling here and shrinking over there
Turning in this direction, shifting there

*idhar *jhuumtaa aur maTaktaa hu’aa
*udhar* ghuumtaa aur aTaktaa hu’aa

Swaying and coquetting *over here*
Revolving and held back *over there *

Now, if you feel this is far flung from people’s tongues, here is something from Facebook.

are kamiino *idhar* bhii dekh liyaa karo!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Are-Kamino-Idhar-Bhi-Dekh-Liya-Karo/429463157118474?group_id=0

Whether anyone accepts what I’ve written is immaterial. I shall leave it for those blessed with a discerning mind to decide.


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## marrish

Qureshpor SaaHib, you proposed even to discuss _tahaaN_: it is still used idiomatically like in:

خدا جہاں تہاں حاضر ہے۔_ xudaa jahaaN tahaaN Haazir hai_. NOT _xudaa *jidhar-tidhar Haazir hai. = _everywhere_._

Another example for the different usage AND meaning of _yahaaN_ and _idhar_:

_jab tum yahaaN ho ge tumheN vuh kitaab mile gii_ NOT _jab tum idhar ho ge tumheN vuh kitaab mile gii_. It is possible to say _jab tum idhar aa'o ge_ or _jab tum yahaaN aa'o ge_.

[Hindi]
मेरे यहाँ पधारिए
_mere yahaaN padhaarie_ NOT mere *idhar padhaarie.

Can anyone tell if my reasoning is sound?

EDIT: Just in case someone (EDIT: just in case someone (just excluding GB because he considers every reason good for baseless criticizing of what I say)is interested why I have emphasized that the last example is only Hindi, which implies that it is not Urdu - this is for educational purposes only. I would not emphasize any differences when there are none. In Urdu one doesn't say ''_mere yahaaN_'' to mean ''at my place'', although it happens but usually and commonly one says ''_mere haaN_''. The situation in Hindi is different, _whence (jidhar se, _not_ jahaaN se)_ the distinction.


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## Chhaatr

marrish said:


> [Hindi]
> मेरे यहाँ पधारिए
> _mere yahaaN padhaarie_ NOT mere *idhar padhaarie.
> 
> Can anyone tell if my reasoning is sound?



marrish saaHib reasoning aur misaal dono durust haiN.


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## marrish

Chhaatr said:


> marrish saaHib reasoning aur misaal dono durust haiN.


aap kaa bahut bahut shukriyah, Chhaatr SaaHib, aaj-kal is Forum meN daad paanaa shaaz-o-naadir hai.

I've edited my post to add some information on the last one.


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## Chhaatr

marrish said:


> shaaz-o-naadir



Zaraa tafseel meN bataaeNge shaaz-o-naadir ke maaine?  Prof google says "rarely".  Is it right?


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## marrish

Chhaatr said:


> Zaraa tafseel meN bataaeNge shaaz-o-naadir ke maaine?  Prof google says "rarely".  Is it right?


behtar hai aap is ke liye na'ii laRii shuruu3 kar deN to zaruur javaab mile gaa.


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## Alfaaz

Wolverine9 said:
			
		

> Can anyone think of examples where there are clear differences?


In addition to the examples provided by QURESHPOR and marrish SaaHibaan, could this be an example?

رنگ لائے گا شہیدوں کا لہو 

اپنی رفتار کو اب اور ذرا تیز کرو 
اپنے جذبات کو کچھ اور جنوں خیز کرو 
ایک دو گام پہ اب منزلِ آزادی ہے 
آگ اور خوں کے ادھرامن کی آبادی ہے
تنویر نقوی 

_raNg laa'e gaa shaheedoN ka lahuu

apni raftaar ko ab aur zaraa tez karo
apne jazbaat ko kuchh aur junooN-khez karo
aik do gaam peh ab manzil-e-aazaadi hai
aag aur khuuN ke udhar amn ki aabaadi hai
Tanweer Naqvi

_This would probably depend on one's interpretation of the poetry and usage of words, but would forum members say that _udhar_ and _wahaaN_ could be interchangeable/synonymous in the example above?


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## Qureshpor

^ Excellent example, Alfaaz SaaHib. Could you please change the "ze" of "jazbaat" to "zaal".


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## Chhaatr

One example which comes to my mind where yahaaN/wahaaN/kahaaN can't be replaced with idhar/udhar/kidhar is:

KahaaN tak ye man ko andhere chhaleNge,
udaasi bhare din kabhii to DhaleNge

Song from the movie _BaatoN BaatoN meN_


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## Alfaaz

Another example: 

کہاں تک سنو گے ، کہاں تک سناؤں 
ہزاروں ہی شکوے ہیں ، کیا کیا بتاؤں 
(فلم : انارکلی ; شاعر : تنویر نقوی)

_KahaaN tak suno ge, kahaaN tak sunaa'ooN
hazaaroN hi shikwe haiN, kyaa kyaa bataa'ooN
(Film: Anaarkali ; Shaa'ir: Tanweer Naqwi)_


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## Qureshpor

Similar in use to that given in # post 28

samundaroN ke *udhar* se ko'ii sadaa aa'ii
diloN ke band dariiche khule, havaa aa'ii

Parveen Shakir (1952-1994)

And one more from Faiz.

ho nah ho apne qabiile kaa bhii ko'ii lashkar
muntazir ho gaa aNdheroN kii fasiiloN ke *udhar
*
muntazir = waiting
fasiil = wall

From a work of prose:

log bataate haiN kih jarnailii saRak ke *idhar *aur *udhar*, Panjab ke is Hisse meN log mazhab kii nisbat zamiin kii bunyaad pih ziyaadah taqsiim the.

http://urdu.dawn.com/2013/01/01/lajwanti-and-lenni-aq/

I don't believe we can substitute "yahaaN" and "vahaaN" here.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Another example for the different usage AND meaning of _yahaaN_ and _idhar_:
> 
> _jab tum yahaaN ho ge tumheN vuh kitaab mile gii_ NOT _jab tum idhar ho ge tumheN vuh kitaab mile gii_. It is possible to say _jab tum idhar aa'o ge_ or _jab tum yahaaN aa'o ge_.
> 
> [Hindi]
> मेरे यहाँ पधारिए
> _mere yahaaN padhaarie_ NOT mere *idhar padhaarie.
> 
> Can anyone tell if my reasoning is sound?



It is not, unfortunately, marrish, as far as _actual_ usage/interchangeability of "idhar"/'yahaaN" is concerned (the question was never about what the grammar books would prescribe).

"jab tum idhar hoge" is fine and heard every day. As for "mere idhar padhaariye" kind of examples, here are some of them from literature:

"_मेरे इधर_ के चित्रों में ताल रंग अधिक उभरता गया है" - mere idhar ke chitroN meN raNg adhik ubhartaa gayaa hai
_"मेरे इधर_ एक सम्पन्न नेता का एक आयत पहले निकलता था" - mere idhar ek sampann netaa kaa ek aayat pehle nikaltaa tha
"_मेरे इधर_ की सड़कों का हाल यह है कि ..." - mere idhar kii sadkoN kaa haal yeh hai ki ...
"_मेरे इधर_ तो प्रकृति ने यह मुसीबत पैदा की है" - mere idhar to prakriti ne yeh musiibat paida kii hai ...
etc.


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## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> This would probably depend on one's interpretation of the poetry and usage of words, but would forum members say that _udhar_ and _wahaaN_ could be interchangeable/synonymous in the example above?



According to you, Alfaaz, what does "udhar" mean here: "in that direction" or "beyond"?


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## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 said:


> Can anyone think of examples where there are clear differences?


I hope you have seen enough examples in the various posts. Here is one more: 

किधर जायगा शेयर बाजार ?
kidhar jaaygaa sheyar baajaar?

(I presume the last word is "baazaar" [market]). Clearly, this does not translate to: "Where will the share-market go now?" but " What direction will the share market take now?"

http://sanamshotcake.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/blog-post.html


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## greatbear

^ And yet, "kahaaN jaayegaa share bazaar" is also very much used. Except for Alfaaz's example (and the similar one that you then gave), I don't see the lack of interchangeability in as-used language. Regarding Alfaaz's example, I am yet awaiting his clarification over the sense - whether the sense of "taraf" (direction) or "pare" (beyond).


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## Qureshpor

It would be nice to see where we are with this thread. Wolverine9 asked a clearly worded question on 16/03/13


Wolverine9 said:


> Can anyone think of examples where there are clear differences?


This received the following response:


greatbear said:


> QP and marrish ought to, as according to them they are *not synonyms*. I am also living in hope.


Let’s take a look at what each of them did say and also what the author of the above post has said.


QURESHPOR said:


> kahaaN means "At what place?" where as "kidhar" means "In which direction?". *However, I doubt if many people differentiate the meaning in their ordinary speech*!


 07/02/2011


QURESHPOR said:


> *idhar and yahaaN are generally used synonymously in casual speech*. However “idhar” means “In this direction” or “Over here” (cf. English hither, thither and whither for our idhar, tidhar and kidhar) whereas “yahaaN” is “at this place”.


 12/03/2013


marrish said:


> Are you trying to say that a native speaker would say ''*idhar*''? No! Only ''*yahaaN*'' is *appropriate*, which you have added on second thought.


 12/03/2013

Please note that marrish SaaHib in his post is making the assertion that “yahaaN” is appropriate and not “idhar” specifically in the context of the sentence proposed by the “author”, namely, “_idhar_ _aap ko Hindi meN_ _bahut saarii kitaabeN mileNgii.”

_Now, let us see what the author of the second quote given above, has in mind about this subject, Wolveine9’s post acting as a catalyst.


Wolverine9 said:


> *Aren't *_*idhar*_ *and *_*yahaaN*_ *synonyms*, as are _udhar_ and _vahaaN_? It was *my impression* that all of these forms are commonly used in both Hindi and Urdu. Am I wrong?





greatbear said:


> I *was and am still of the same impression*, Wolverine.





greatbear said:


> "idhar aanaa" = "yahaaN aanaa"
> "idhar kuchh na milne vaala tujh ko" = "yahaan ..."
> "aaj ham yahaaN isliye ikaTThe hue haiN" = "aaj ham idhar ..."
> "o bhai, kyaa chal rahaa hai idhar?" = "... yahaaN?"
> 
> In short, I can't think of examples where a "yahaaN" can be used but "idhar" cannot. *They seem to be perfect synonyms*.


 15/3/2013


greatbear said:


> If I deliberately want to say "go in that direction", I would say "us taraf jaao"/"us dishaa meN jaao". "udhar jaao" = "vahaaN jaao"; "idhar aao" = "yahaaN aao"; and "kidhar chale" = "kahaaN chale". *Idhar might or might not mean originally "in this direction"; however, its usage is perfectly synonymous with "yahaaN" - same situation for "udhar"/"vahaaN" and "kidhar"/"kahaaN".*


 16/03/2013

Looking at what QP and marrish have said and the above comments, it should be clear to anyone that it is our “author” who has unambiguously stated that these pairs of words are synonymous! I along with other friends have produced a number of examples where we believe these pairs are not synonymous. Out of these I shall try to select a few examples that, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, do unequivocally point to their being not interchangeable and therefore disprove the author’s stance that they are synonymous.

gul phaiNke hai auroN kii taraf balkih samar bhii
ai xaanah bar andaaz-i-chaman, kuchh to *idha*r bhii

Sauda (1713-1781)

The poet in the first line is complaining to his beloved that “auroN kii taraf” she is throwing flowers (and fruit) and is requesting if she would throw some “idhar bhii” (towards him too). Here we cannot have “yahaaN bhii”.

paRii mujh pih un kii nazar mere Rama
du3aa’eN hu’iiN kaar-gar mere Rama
vuh aaNkheN jo aksar *udhar* dekhtii thiiN
vuh aaNkheN uThiiN haiN *idhar* mere Rama

Raj Kumar “Qais”

I don’t believe I need to elaborate on this. It is crystal clear that the poet Raj Kumar “Qais” has direction away from and towards him in mind.

*idhar* kaaTe *udhar* palaT jaa’e

Once again no explanation is necessary.

kahaaN tak ye man ke andhere chhaleNge,
udaasii bhare din kabhii to DhaleNge

This is Chhaatr Jii’s contribution. Here “kahaaN tak” is equivalent to “kab tak” and not “kidhar tak”.

kahaaN tak suno ge kahaaN tak sunaa'uuN..posted by Alfaz SaaHib implies "kis Had tak" and not "kidhar tak".

Alfaaz SaaHib has provided an example from a famous film lyricist (Tanvir Naqvi) where the format is “*ke idhar/udhar*”, as in “aag aur xuuN *ke udhar* amn kii aabaadii hai”. I have also quoted similar examples, one being from the late Parveen Shakir. “samundaroN *ke udhar* se ko’ii sadaa aa’ii”. It has been suggested that here “ke udhar” could mean “beyond”. It can mean this. But it can’t be replaced with “vahaaN”. So, they are not synonymous!!


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> It is not, unfortunately, marrish, as far as _actual_ usage/interchangeability of "idhar"/'yahaaN" is concerned (the question was never about what the grammar books would prescribe).
> 
> "jab tum idhar hoge" is fine and heard every day. As for "mere idhar padhaariye" kind of examples, here are some of them from literature:
> 
> "_मेरे इधर_ के चित्रों में ताल रंग अधिक उभरता गया है" - mere idhar ke chitroN meN raNg adhik ubhartaa gayaa hai
> _"मेरे इधर_ एक सम्पन्न नेता का एक आयत पहले निकलता था" - mere idhar ek sampann netaa kaa ek aayat pehle nikaltaa tha
> "_मेरे इधर_ की सड़कों का हाल यह है कि ..." - mere idhar kii sadkoN kaa haal yeh hai ki ...
> "_मेरे इधर_ तो प्रकृति ने यह मुसीबत पैदा की है" - mere idhar to prakriti ne yeh musiibat paida kii hai ...
> etc.




Re. 1st example: it is of no use to illustrate a kind of ''_*mere idhar padhaariye_''. Why? It doesn't mean ''at one's place''! It means _mere ''idhar'' vaale chitroN meN_... ''_mere chitroN meN jo ''idhar'' haiN_''.

Re. 2nd example: can you provide a translation and source? It doesn't seem to be available online.

Re. 3rd example: it is interesting to note. However it is not literary. It is a short article on a news site.

Re. 4th example: indeed, this is a literary example. Quite surprising but it doesn't mean ''to my house/place''.

What surprised me the least was the result of googling (Prof. Google as Chhaatr SaaHib said yesterday or as I heard once, Shri Google) for the following:

"मेरे इधर आइए" mere idhar aaie
"मेरे इधर पधारिए"mere idhar padhaarie
"मेरे इधर आओ" mere idhar aao
"मेरे इधर आ जाओ" mere idhar aa jaao
"मेरे इधर आना" mere idhar aanaa
"मेरे इधर आ जाना" mere idhar aa jaanaa
"मेरे इधर आ" mere idhar aa

Curious what the result was? *Zero hits!*

There was one hit for Roman: _to bhai mere idhar aa ja na kuch din ke liye_ but it can be rephrased to ''mere bhaaii, idhar aa jaa''.


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## Alfaaz

greatbear said:
			
		

> According to you, Alfaaz, what does "udhar" mean here: "in that direction" or "beyond"?





			
				greatbear said:
			
		

> Regarding Alfaaz's example, I am yet awaiting his clarification over the sense - whether the sense of "taraf" (direction) or "pare" (beyond).


It seems to mean "beyond" or "across" here, #2 in the dictionary:

ادھر -udhar
2_ دور (متکلم یا مقرر کی جگہ کی نسبت سے)۔ - duur (mutakallim yaa muqarrar ki jagah ki nisbat se)
and
کسی حد سے آگے، کسی مقام سے گزر کر، اس پار۔ - kisi Hadd se aage, kisi maqaam se guzar kar, us paar_


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## Wolverine9

Thanks for the examples, everyone!  I think we can all agree that in some cases they are synonymous, but in others they are not.


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## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> It seems to mean "beyond" or "across" here, #2 in the dictionary:
> 
> ادھر -udhar
> 2_ دور (متکلم یا مقرر کی جگہ کی نسبت سے)۔ - duur (mutakallim yaa muqarrar ki jagah ki nisbat se)
> and
> کسی حد سے آگے، کسی مقام سے گزر کر، اس پار۔ - kisi Hadd se aage, kisi maqaam se guzar kar, us paar_



Thanks a lot, Alfaaz; that is what I thought.


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> Thanks for the examples, everyone!  I think we can all agree that in some cases they are synonymous, but in others they are not.


You are welcome. Personally I find it a good conclusion. I only regret that I and some others were forced into futile discussions and had to go to such lengths, spending hours, to prove that the Earth is spherical.


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