# PRL-u & np



## 涼宮

Merry Christmas everyone 

I'm a little confused. In the following context from what word that -u comes ? I see it's a declension but what word is making peerelowski be declined? And what does ''np'' mean?

_
To epoka ciągle za mało znana, z pourywanymi wątkami. Po pierwsze, strasznie zakłamana w okresie *PRL-u*, kiedy *np*. tradycja polskiej lewicy była celowo omijana, zamazywana. Po drugie, prawica narodowa tamtych lat to ciągle temat tabu. 
_


Thanks in advance!


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## paulie-nka

That -u comes from declension of peerel - the way we read "PRL" and *np. *is an abbreviation of *na przykład *​(for example).


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## LilianaB

It is a weird use of Genitive with abbreviated name of the country during communist times. It could be better phrased. I am not sure if this form would be acceptable by journalistic standards.I would say w czasach PRL.


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## paulie-nka

*w czasach PRL-u* is more natural to say in common language than *w czasach PRL *but both of them are perfectly correct.


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## LilianaB

The difference might really be if you are forty you would say PRL, if you are twenty you would say PRLu. This might just be a newer form.


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:


> It is a weird use of Genitive with abbreviated name of the country during communist times. It could be better phrased. I am not sure if this form would be acceptable by journalistic standards.I would say w czasach PRL.



I'm compelled to point out that you are mistaken. "W czasach PRL-u" is far more popular than "W czasach PRL". As regards the journalits, they are inclined to use the former as Bronisław Wildstein in his show - Cienie PRL-u.


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## LilianaB

Did you read my last post?


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## dreamlike

Yes, I did.



			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> if you are twenty you would say PRLu.



Bronisław Wildstein is in his early 60s so this would contradict your feeble theory. Seriously, I don't think that age has much to do with the form you use here.


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## LilianaB

Maybe he just likes it. Find this form in articles from before 1980? Maybe you could, I am not sure but this would not have been the standard form, I think.


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## LilianaB

So, how would you use it as a noun? As an adverbial noun phrase indicating location.


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## dreamlike

I think that "Gazeta została wydana w PRL" and "Gazeta została wydana w PRL-u" are equally good. But we were talking about "PRL" used as an adjective so far and then it's better to say "PRL-u".


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## LilianaB

Ok, let's see what other people will say. I am not saying this is wrong. I am just not used to it. i do not have that much contact with informal Polish or even local newspapers from Poland. I read one paper sometimes, but I have not noticed forms like that in that paper.


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## BezierCurve

I guess the difference is neglible. 

If I really, really wanted to find some subtle tones I'd say that "PRL" (no declension) would be more often used in terms of a country (as an indivisible unit), while "PRL-u" (or -owi, -em, etc.) would be used when talking about _those distinctive times_ (I mean the way people lived, political situation inside the country etc.) But that's again no rule, so I don't think it's a valid point to see any significant difference.


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## dreamlike

I'm in agreeement with you. Come to think of it, simply "PRL" (no declension) sounds better to my ears when used as "an adverbial noun phrase indicating location" (give it up for LilianaB for linguistic terms).  





			
				BezierCurve said:
			
		

> when talking about those distinctive times


  To labell those times as "distinctive" would be an understatement. "Despicable", "contemptible" springs to mind.


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## majlo

I don't understand why it would be a 'weird' term of the communist times in the genitive. 

If you inflect this abbreviation (PRL-u), it might show a little disregard to the addressee (PRL). Though, it all depends on the context.


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## LilianaB

It is not a weird term of the communist times. I think it is a contemporary term to refer to those times, or in fact any times. Would you use the Genitive in relation to any contemporary name of a country, to its abbreviated form?


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## majlo

I would. Not only in relation to a name of a country but to any abbreviated form, for that matter.


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## LilianaB

Would you say: UK-u, USA-u, IR-u and so on?


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## majlo

The first abbreviation is not Polish. I don't know the last one but I presume it's not Polish either. And the form USA-u, I believe, is not possible.


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## LilianaB

Would you say, ZSRR-u?


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## majlo

If I wanted to show a little disregard for the Soviet Union, I might use it. Otherwise, I'd be more likely to use the standard abbreviation ZSRR, though, again it all depends on the context.


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## hidek

LilianaB said:


> Would you say, ZSRR-u?



I don't know if it is formally valid but some people say 'ZSRR-u'. And about examples mentioned above (USA, UK & IR), those abbrevations aren't Polish and that's what makes the difference. The good example to explain it could be University of Economy in Cracow, the Polish abbrevation is UEK. People often use the 'UEK-u' form, e. g. 'studiuję na UEK-u)'.


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## BezierCurve

There is just a tiny difference in gender when it comes to USA in colloquial speech. I heard some people treat it as female (due to the -A ending).


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## Thomas1

> *PRL* [_wym._ pe-er-*el*] _ż ndm a. m I_, _DMs._PRL-u, _N._ PRL-em, _rzad._ _m_ _ndm_ «Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa»: PRL miała (miał) w godle orła bez korony. Przez wiele lat był ambasadorem w PRL (w PRL-u).
> _Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN_ © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA


PRL changes its grammatical gender depending on whether you decline the acronym or not. 

As to weather its whether it's declinable or not, I think that today there is hardly anyone who would object to its being declined (to my experience it would be the opposite for ZSRR if we're talking about regular usage). However, I wouldn't be surprised if at the beginning of its use it wasn't.

PS: Bezier, congrats on your first kilopost. 
PS2: Hidek, welcome to the forums.


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## NotNow

Thomas1 said:


> As to weather its declinable or not,



This is a language forum, so let's not discuss the weather.


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## majlo

Heh, that's a good one. I didn't even notice it.


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## dreamlike

This went unnoticed for me, too. Might have something to do with our brain reading text as a whole, paying little attention to particular words


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## majlo

Auallcty, you mhigt be rhigt, daemrlkie.


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## dreamlike

Taht was one hlel of an asnewr, mjlao. It mdae me simle!


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## Thomas1

Weather apart... 
Something interesting I've just found: 


> Odmiana O włączeniu poszczególnych skrótowców do odpowiedniej deklinacji decyduje ich wymowa, a mianowicie:
> 1. Zakończenie spółgłoskowe (SPATiF, KPN, UPR, NOT) przesądza o odmianie skrótowca według wzoru rzeczownikowego męskiego nieżywotnego; wybór deklinacji miękkotematowej lub twardotematowej, a także stosowanie wymian spółgłoskowych i samogłoskowych regulują te same zasady, co przy odmianie rzeczowników pospolitych; niektórych skrótowców nie odmieniamy w ogóle, np. ZSRR; mówimy: [rozpad zet-es-er-er], nie: *[zet-es-er-er-u];
> 2. Zakończenie w wymowie na -e, -i, -o, -u (KGB, PC, EWG, PWST, WSP, PTE, WSI, PKO, PZU) oraz akcentowane -a (SGH, PTTK) przesądza o nieodmienności;
> 3. Zakończenie w wymowie na -a nie akcentowane decyduje o odmianie według modelu rzeczownikowego żeńskiego (DESA, POLFA, YMCA)
> _Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN_ © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA


In some cases practical usage doesn't comply with the rules. For instance: 'Studiuje na SGH-u.' People use it all the time, the accent falls on a different syllable, of course, i.e. on the penultimate (es*gie*hu). However, it does sound more colloquial than 'Studiuje na SGH.'.

For those who aren't familiar with SGH: Szkoła Główna Handlowa (Warsaw School of Economics).

EDIT: as to 'np.' it is an abbreviation, it is not declinable and you read out all its parts in full, i.e. 'na przykład'.
 'PRL' is an acronym and it is declinable and you usually don't read out all its parts in full, i.e. 'peerel'.


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## BezierCurve

> EDIT: as to 'np.' it is an abbreviation, it is not declinable and you read out all its parts in full, i.e. 'na przykład'.



Sometimes in colloquial speech people pronounce such abbreviations as spelled (letter by letter), just for fun, I guess (itepe, itede, enpe etc.).

@Thomas: Thanks, yet another reason for celebrating


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## Thomas1

Strange, ‘itp.’ and ‘itd.’ sound normal whereas ‘np.’ funny if read out in full (but I agree with you Bezier). 
Similarly when you decline 'PRL' and 'ZSRR', the former sounds normal, the latter funny. I will have to think about it more to explain it. 

EDIT: after some thinking...
OK, here’s what I’ve found out:
NORM: 
abbreviations (skróty) are read out in full, for example: np.[na przykład], p. [pan/pani], m. in. [między innymi], itp. [i tym podobne/i tym podobnie], itd. [i tak dalej].
COLLOQUIAL language:
certain abbreviations admit reduced reading, and here I found the following two in a dictionary: itp. [i te pe], itd. [i te de].

Acronyms are usually read out in reduced form (which probably stems from brevity):
PRL [peerel]
PKS [pekaes]
ZSRR [zet es er er]
SGH [esgieha]
They may be read out in full:
PRL [polska rzeczpospolita ludowa]
PKS [państwowa komunikacja samochodowa]
ZSRR [związek socjalistycznych republik radzieckich]
SGH [szkoła główna handlowa]
As to whether they decline or not see my post number 30.

OTHER situations [this is what I think is the case]:
there are exceptional situations in which one does not apply the rules for various purposes, usually for some effect, for example:
np. [enpe] – to make the wording sound funny, but the normal pronuciation is [na przykład]
ZSRR-u – to give some negative overtones to the acronym, but usually you don't decline it
These are however rather not usual situations.


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## 涼宮

Woah! A lot of information  Thank you all of you for clarifying my doubts! And your posts are really useful Thomas  It will help me a lot.

Do widzenia!


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## pracadomowa

majlo said:


> I don't understand why it would be a 'weird' term of the communist times in the genitive.
> 
> If you inflect this abbreviation (PRL-u), it might show a little disregard to the addressee (PRL). Though, it all depends on the context.





LilianaB said:


> Would you say, ZSRR-u?



ZSRR, PRL, USA, RP - neither of the acronyms must have Polish endings, so why some of the acronyms have endings in Polish whereas some other don't have any? The reason is quite simple - endings make the acronyms sound more natural in spoken language, and consequently the endings are becoming common in written language. However, NATO and USA don't have endings in Polish, because common substitute for USA is "Stany" (with all endings added) and NATO has no endings simply because NATO endings would ridicule NATO in Polish (NAT-a, NAT-u, NAT-em, NAC-ie). ZSRR has no endings in Polish for the same reason: words like zetesererze, zetesererowi, zetesererem,  zetesereru sound silly in Polish, so only people who wanted to ridicule the Soviet superpower would add endings to ZSRR, which made it sound funny or dirty. 

Endings added to PRL have become common when *PRL* has become *peerel*, which sound like hotel, so let's compare *PRL* (peerel) and *hotel*:

Mianownik:  PRL (peerel) and hotel 
Dopełniacz:   PRL-*u* (peerelu) and hotel*u*
Celownik:   PRL-*owi* (peerelowi) and hotel*owi* 
Biernik:   PRL (peerel) and hotel
Narzędnik:    PRL-*em* (peerelem) and hotel*em* 
Miejscownik:    PRL-*u* (peerelu) and hotel*u*

Note that endings added to PRL are completely useless grammatically, however they have become common as PRL has become the subject of wider and wider criticism. People supporting PRL and its political system did not add endings to the acronym of their country.


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## pracadomowa

pracadomowa said:


> ZSRR has no endings in Polish for the same reason: words like zetesererze, zetesererowi, zetesererem,  zetesereru sound silly in Polish, so only people who wanted to ridicule the Soviet superpower would add endings to ZSRR, which made it sound funny or dirty.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Note that endings added to PRL are completely useless grammatically, however they have become common as PRL has become the subject of wider and wider criticism. People supporting PRL and its political system did not add endings to the acronym of their country.



It was about 35 years ago and I was at school then. Those days it made me  wonder why some schoolchildren added endings to PRL or ZSRR and some other didn't.  This discussion made me realize that children from military families and  our Polish teacher did not add endings to PRL and ZSRR, and our Polish  teacher was critical about such endings. Now it may seem funny.


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## Ben Jamin

LilianaB said:


> It is a weird use of Genitive with abbreviated name of the country during communist times. It could be better phrased. I am not sure if this form would be acceptable by journalistic standards.I would say w czasach PRL.



This is a firmly established way of declension of acronyms in Polish at least since 1950’s but possibly 20 years older.
PRL (pronounced ‘peerel’) is declined as ‘cel’ (the same declension used for KDL, WRL, and so on).
PGR (pronounced ‘pegeer’) is declined as ‘rower’ (the same applies to WKR, DDR and so on).


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## Ben Jamin

dreamlike said:


> Taht was one hlel of an asnewr, mjlao. It mdae me simle!



It has been actually scientifically proved that you may scramble letters in words and the text remains fully understandable, but under one condition: the word’s first and last letter must remain on its place.


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## majlo

Indeed. Actually, you can even substitute some letters with numbers and the text is still understandable. Human brain - nice invention.


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## dreamlike

I knew about that while writing my post, Ben Jamin. Therefore every single word of my answer to majlo has its first and last letter in the right place. But thanks anyway


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## majlo

I think most people interested in language know about that.


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