# Downtown vs City Center/Centre



## piotr1980

Hello,

Is there any difference between the words : *Downtown *and *City Center ?*

*- Which train should I take to go to Downtown?*

Is ''Downtown'' AE expression?, do we use it BE as well?

Many thanks
Piotr


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## Dimcl

I grew up learning predominantly BE and have always referred to "downtown".  As a matter of fact, the term "city centre" is a relatively new phrase (in the last two decades - at least in Canada).

I have a suspicion that "city centre" has arisen as cities have grown.  With sprawling cities with many bedroom communities, "city centre" is more specific than "downtown" in a geographic sense.

In terms of your question, however, I would certainly understand both of them to mean the same thing if you were to ask me which train to take and I suspect that most people would.


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## looking-at-the-stars

"Downtown" is what is most commonly used.
For example "downtown LA" is the area where all of the skyscrapers are located, the heart of LA.
If you said "the city center of LA" you might get a funny look.


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## panjandrum

Downtown sounds very AE to me.


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## anothersmith

panjandrum said:


> Downtown sounds very AE to me.



It's funny that you say that, because when I saw the word in the title of this thread I immediately thought of that old British song by Petulia Clark!

To answer the question, downtown is the term most commonly used in the U.S. to refer to the commercial district of a city, where the tallest buildings are.  Some cities may choose to refer to their downtown area as a city center, but that's not a generic term.


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## Gwlad

Brits never use "downtown" - in fact, I didn't know what area of a city it refers to until reading the definition posted above!  It is definitely classed as AE, the sort of thing we only hear in American TV or films.  We use *city centre*.

eg Which train should I take to get to the city centre?


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## liliput

> I grew up learning predominantly BE and have always referred to "downtown". As a matter of fact, the term "city centre" is a relatively new phrase (in the last two decades - at least in Canada).
> 
> I have a suspicion that "city centre" has arisen as cities have grown. With sprawling cities with many bedroom communities, "city centre" is more specific than "downtown" in a geographic sense.
> 
> In terms of your question, however, I would certainly understand both of them to mean the same thing if you were to ask me which train to take and I suspect that most people would.


Perhaps we should start referring to Canadian English as a separate entity to BE and AE. If you use "downtown" then you did not learn BE - we always talk about the city centre. In fact "downtown" sounds to me like an area away from the city centre to me, and I thought of it this way for several years before realizing my error.

By the way, the starter of this thread has used the AE spelling of centre for the BE term city centre.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

In Philadelphia, the term used is neither downtown nor city centre, but is instead a variant on the latter: "center city" 
_His office used to be in center city on Two Street, but now it is in West Philly near Penn._

This is one of those Philadelphia singularities (such as referring to _squares_ instead of _blocks_) that is copied by those other places that have been influenced by Philadelphia (_e.g_., any number of other towns in Pennsylvania.)

In New York City, "downtown" refers to the southern part of the island of Manhattan, and it is also used to indicate any point south of where one is standing:

_Most large law firms  in New York are in midtown Manhattan, but some are still downtown near Wall street._

_After we left Columbia University, we headed the short distance downtown to the Upper West Side._


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## JamesM

> _After we left Columbia University, we headed the short distance downtown to the Upper West Side._




Now there's an interesting sentence!



			
				looking-at-the-stars said:
			
		

> For example "downtown LA" is the area where all of the skyscrapers are located, the heart of LA.
> If you said "the city center of LA" you might get a funny look.


 
I agree.  I think the unique problem with "city center" in L.A. is that the city is so spread out.  Los Angeles stretches over five hundred square miles, compared to 65 square miles for Paris and 47 square miles for San Francisco.  This is just the _city_ of Los Angeles; the county, which is all part of the Los Angeles metro area is over 4,000 square miles, and the metropolitan area includes several neighboring counties.  It's a bit tricky to imagine one "city center" for thousands of square miles of metropolitan sprawl.

Speaking of San Francisco, it's common to say "I'm going into the city" or "I'm going to the city" rather than "I'm going downtown."


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## sloopjc

anothersmith said:


> It's funny that you say that, because when I saw the word in the title of this thread I immediately thought of that old British song by Petulia Clark!



Cliff Richard used to think he was Elvis, too, and it's *Petula*, by the way.
Downtown Train (Tom Waits) is my favourite. In BE going, _into town or down __into town_ is about as close as it gets to our love of all things American, in this case.


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## se16teddy

Gwlad said:


> Brits never use "downtown"


  I think this is an overstatement; in particular, I often use _down town_ (stress on the second syllable). 

The British use of down town is discussed here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=472322&highlight=downtown


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## Dimcl

liliput said:


> Perhaps we should start referring to Canadian English as a separate entity to BE and AE. If you use "downtown" then you did not learn BE - we always talk about the city centre. In fact "downtown" sounds to me like an area away from the city centre to me, and I thought of it this way for several years before realizing my error.
> 
> By the way, the starter of this thread has used the AE spelling of centre for the BE term city centre.


 
You'll note that I said "predominantly" BE, Liliput.  And you'll also note that I spelled it "centre" instead of "center" so there must be a BE influence in there somewhere!  It sounds, though, like other of your compatriots do use "downtown/down town" so I stand by my neurotic (AE/BE) Canadian education.


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## Macunaíma

By the way, is it *to go downtown* or *to go to downtown*?


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## Harry Batt

I rather think it depends upon the local usage. If you live in a town and not a city you will go uptown or downtown depending upon the choice that you make. Every will understand.  Unfortunately in the AE we don't have "au centre ville" which eliminates the problem. New York City is another matter. The geographay of the city is well known by its residents who know where downtown, midtown and uptown are located. Listen to a TV Police show and you will hear these words.


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## Dimcl

Macunaíma said:


> By the way, is it *to go downtown* or *to go to downtown*?


 
In Canada, you would always hear "to go downtown"


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## Harry Batt

Maybe geography has something to do with it. In Minnesota we go "uip north" to the lakes to go fishing. Never has anyone said "down south" To myself anything north is "up" and south is "down." I say downtowni in Minneaplis because the center or loop is north of my neighborhood.


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## Judica

Macunaíma said:


> By the way, is it *to go downtown* or *to go to downtown*?


 to go downtown (AE East Coast ... not Pa. )


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## Harry Batt

Mac It would be "go downtown" or go uptown, except when a particular part of the city is identified as one or the other.  In Minneapolis we have a neigborhood which is called Uptown. It would be and is proper to say, "Well, I'm off. I'm going to Uptown."


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## sound shift

I've never heard anyone round here use "downtown" in the sense of "in the city centre".

"Down town" is used in parts of the UK, but only to indicate movement: "I'm going down town" [two words] means "I'm going to the town/city centre".

We don't have "uptown" either.


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## brilliantpink

In the parts of Canada I am familiar with we also use 'downtown' (and incidentally, Macunaíma, never 'to downtown' - I guess the preposition rules in this case, i.e. we go down, not to down).


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## Sepia

Funny, the first thing I was thinking of was also the Petula Clark song.

But as opposed to "downtown" the word "uptown" also existed (x decades ago - maybe only AE?). However, I am not sure if this word only had a geographical meaning, like "outskirts", or "the suburbs", or if it also implicated the social status of the people living there. (Similar to the right and the wrong side of the railroad tracks.) Does anyone know?


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## mishac

I'm from California, and we would definitely use "downtown" for the city center. Uptown also exists- doesn't anyone remember Billy Joel and Christy Brinkley? She was his "uptown girl" and yes she was rich, from the right side of the tracks. It may have existed more in the past, but in a proper urban setting I'd say it still exists to this day.
Generally speaking it is always "to go uptown/downtown"- never with "to" unless it's a place name like a pp mentioned.
I had never heard city center until coming to Europe.


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## Loob

I think that in Australia I saw "CBD" (= Central Business District) for the same concept.  Is that used anywhere else?

Loob


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## JamesM

I don't think I've ever heard "Central Business District", but "Business District" by itself is used.  You might also see or hear "Financial District".  It doesn't necessarily mean downtown, though.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

As noted earlier, in New York "uptown" is a directional word meaning "north of where you are presently standing" and "downtown" means "south of where you are at present."  Since Billy Joel is a New Yorker, I would think that in his song "Uptown Girl" he meant that she was from the well-to-do uptown (that is, further north) neighborhoods in Manhattan, especially the wealthy Upper East Side.


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## Matching Mole

Using simply "town" is fairly common in BE. I'm going into town doesn't just mean you are going to a town generally, but specifically means the town centre, for shopping, entertainment, etc. The very central districts of London are also referred to as "town", by some people, if they are coming from the outskirts (even though they may still start off in London technically), and the direction is "up" quite often. "I'm going up to town, are you coming?" (This works in other towns too.)

On road signs, "city centre" and "town centre" are used.


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## liliput

> I think that in Australia I saw "CBD" (= Central Business District) for the same concept. Is that used anywhere else?


I am familiar with the term CBD, but only from studying geography, I'm not sure it's used much outside this context. I wouldn't say I was going to the PLVI (Peak Land Value Intersection) either.
I believe London's financial centre is referred to as "The City".
I agree with Matching Mole on the use of town:


> Using simply "town" is fairly common in BE. I'm going into town doesn't just mean you are going to a town generally, but specifically means the town centre, for shopping, entertainment, etc.


However, I tend to talk about going into town in my hometown (which is a city) and use city centre if I'm in a different city, especially a larger one. I'm not sure why.
I seem to remember that Billy Joel's uptown girl had been living in a downtown world.
In Petula Clark's song all the entertainment is downtown.


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## Judica

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> As noted earlier, in New York "uptown" is a directional word meaning "north of where you are presently standing" and "downtown" means "south of where you are at present."  Since Billy Joel is a New Yorker, I would think that in his song "Uptown Girl" he meant that she was from the well-to-do uptown (that is, further north) neighborhoods in Manhattan, especially the wealthy Upper East Side.



That is my impression of Billy Joel's song. "Uptown" had more to do with wealthy section than real direction. Although, US newscasters are famous for saying 'Upper' and 'Lower' Manhattan. Similar to Brits saying West End or East End. 

It can take on so many different meanings.


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## Aidanriley

<This and the three posts that follow were split from another thread and added here.>

What exactly does that mean? The geographical center, or like.. the most popular area in the city?

I live farther away from the center of the city than Robert does.


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## Hitchhiker

Outside the U.S. the "city center" usually refers to the business center which is normally called "downtown" in America. The difference from American cities is the city center usually also has housing for people to live.


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## Aidanriley

Downtowns have places to live, if you count apartments that are the size of the average bathroom. 

<Comment relevant to topic of the other thread deleted.>


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## Hitchhiker

Aidanriley said:


> Downtowns have places to live, if you count apartments that are the size of the average bathroom.
> 
> I live farther away from downtown than Robert does.
> Would be what you're looking for; however, I wouldn't say it. I'd say:
> Robert lives closer to downtown than I do.



I mean in other countries it's fashionable and expensive to live in the city center. It's not cheap poor housing. It's an expensive and desired area to live and work. People with less money may work there but live outside the city center. That's different from American cities. "Downtown" is only an American expression. In other countries "city center" should be correct.


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## bluegiraffe

Hitchhiker said:


> I mean in other countries it's fashionable and expensive to live in the city center. It's not cheap poor housing. It's an expensive and desired area to live and work. People with less money may work there but live outside the city center. That's different from American cities. "Downtown" is only an American expression. In other countries "city center" should be correct.


 As it is used outside of America, it should be "city centre".


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Hitchhiker said:


> I mean in other countries it's fashionable and expensive to live in the city center. It's not cheap poor housing. It's an expensive and desired area to live and work. People with less money may work there but live outside the city center. That's different from American cities.


It is certainly not different in the biggest city in America. The center of the city of New York is the island of Manhattan, and a residence in Manhattan (whether downtown, uptown, or midtown) is highly desirable and far more expensive than a similar residence in other parts of the city or the surrounding area. Similarly, the old downtown heart of Boston is desirable and expensive, and there isn't any part of Philadelphia more fashionable and expensive than the old parts of "Center City" -- or haven't you ever been on, say, Delancey Street between Third and Fourth?


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## JamesM

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> It is certainly not different in the biggest city in America. The center of the city of New York is the island of Manhattan, and a residence in Manhattan (whether downtown, uptown, or midtown) is highly desirable and far more expensive than a similar residence in other parts of the city or the surrounding area. Similarly, the old downtown heart of Boston is desirable and expensive, and there isn't any part of Philadelphia more fashionable and expensive than the old parts of "Center City" -- or haven't you ever been on, say, Delancey Street between Third and Fourth?


 
This is also true of San Francisco, but not of Los Angeles.  It's difficult to point to the city center of a city that covers nearly 1,300 km2 (500 square miles).  "Downtown" Los Angeles is being re-developed into a very fashionable area but it isn't at all like Manhattan or San Francisco.


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## Pedro y La Torre

I once asked a passer-by in Ottawa which bus I should take to get to the "city centre" and was met with nothing but a look of bemusement. It would seem that "downtown" is the sole commonly understood term in North America.


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## natkretep

Loob said:


> I think that in Australia I saw "CBD" (= Central Business District) for the same concept.  Is that used anywhere else?



Very late response. Yes, the abbreviation has been used in Singapore. There used to be an Area Licensing Scheme where cars were charged for entering the CBD. This has been replaced by a kind of congestion charge (called ERP or electronic road pricing here), so the term CBD has fallen slightly away on the wayside.


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## velisarius

sound shift said:


> I've never heard anyone round here use "downtown" in the sense of "in the city centre".
> 
> "Down town" is used in parts of the UK, but only to indicate movement: "I'm going down town" [two words] means "I'm going to the town/city centre".
> 
> We don't have "uptown" either.



Yes, in the U.K. (Sussex) down town in two words, but I seem to remember saying "I'm going down *the* town to do some shopping." (And it was literally down because we lived on a hill).


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## sound shift

Lately I've seen "downtown X" and "downtown Y" (where X and Y are cities located away from the UK) in the travel section of UK newspapers.


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## Keith Bradford

I think that the key phrase there is: *X and Y are cities located away from the UK*.

In the UK we don't talk about cities much - as has been noted earlier, many people even use "town" to mean London whereas "the City" is specifically the financial area of London.

*Up town* was the expression used to refer to Wolverhampton *town centre* when I lived near there. We rarely wrote _up town _on paper, but I think we would have used two separate words.  It meant, literally, up to the town since Wolverhampton is on a hill.  _Downtown _was a song by Petula Clark and meant nothing at all.


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## sound shift

sound shift said:


> Lately I've seen "downtown X" and "downtown Y" (where X and Y are cities located away from the UK) in the travel section of UK newspapers.


And now we've got "downtown Beirut" on the BBC's website (and few things are more British than the BBC).


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## Rover_KE

Gwlad said:


> Brits never use "downtown"


It's not advisable to say 'never' on this forum, Gwald.

Some smarty-pants is always going to come along and say 'I do'.

I do. Having lived in the USA for two years it sort of sounds natural.



bluegiraffe said:


> As it is used outside of America, it should be "city centre".


Also 'town centre' for smaller urban areas.


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## EdisonBhola

[This post and the following ones have been added to a previous thread covering the same topic.  Please read down from the top.  DonnyB - moderator]
Hi all,

Is "downtown" uniquely American? Do British people use this term to refer to the central part of a city?

Many thanks!


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## AnythingGoes

It's North American. I guess it originated with "downtown Manhattan", the southern part of Manhattan Island, New York City, which is Manhattan's largest business district.


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## sdgraham

My only knowledge is _Downtown_, the pop musical hit of 1964, written by British composer Tony Hatch, sung by British songstress Petula Clark, and recorded at Pye Studios in Marble Arch (London)


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## AnythingGoes

The central business district of New Orleans, Louisiana (USA) is called the CBD, for (surprise!) Central Business District. I don't think New Orleanians use the expression "downtown", but I could be mistaken.


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## sound shift

EdisonBhola said:


> Is "downtown" uniquely American? Do British people use this term to refer to the central part of a city?


We don't use it when we're talking about our own cities, and most of us never use it at all. Our cities don't have districts that are officially called "Downtown" (with a capital "d") and we don't say "I'm downtown" or "I'm going downtown". However, some British journalists have been known to reject normal British usage (goodness knows why) and use "downtown" instead when writing about a city outside the UK: "downtown Zurich", etc.


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