# Serbian (BCS): атар



## Kazuma

Hello, I'm translating a text from Serbian to German and came across the word "*atar*". I tried to figure it out myself but I'm still unsure whether "surface" or "area" will do here. After almost despairing, I eventually found it in the Webster's online dictionary as "limits, pale, area, limit".

Here is the sentence:
_Чешко Село има 21 кућа, 16 домаћинстава и атар површине 217 хектара._

And my trial:
_Češko Selo has 21 houses, 16 household and an area of 217 hectares._
(Češko Selo counts 21 houses and 16 households on an area of 217 hectares)

But "atar" + "površina"? "area of surface"?

Could somebody please check my translation and correct it if necessary?


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## phosphore

I do not know the exact corresponding word, if there is one, but _(seoski) atar_ is used to denote a village with all of its houses, fields, forests, etc. while _selo_ usually means just village as an inhabited area.


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> I do not know the exact corresponding word, if there is one, but _(seoski) atar_ is used to denote a village with all of its houses, fields, forests, etc. while _selo_ usually means just village as an inhabited area.



I don't know if there's an exact translation either. A similar term in British/Commonwealth usage is (civil) parish. _Atar_, however, is not related with local government, but chiefly with land possession. _Cadastral division _is closer to the concept, but sounds too formal.


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## Kazuma

But isn't that what we would call the area of a settlement? Isn't it what is described as the *area* in the infotable e.g. here?


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## Duya

Kazuma said:


> But isn't that what we would call the area of a settlement? Isn't it what is described as the *area* in the infotable e.g. here?



Well, it's an area of the settlement plus accompanying uninhabited land. 

But English word _area_ translates to multiple Serbian words:
* _površina _means surface area, i.e. measurable physical area
* _područje, oblast, region, _and, in this case, _atar_, means "a bounded area on earth's surface". (Atar specifically means "village's region").

So, "površina atara", translated too literally, would come to _area of the area. 

_A German translation of "atar" might be "Bezirk", but I don't speak German to know the nuances.


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## phosphore

Here is what architects say: 
​ 
"Seoski atar je teritorija sa tačno utvrđenim granicama koja pripada jednom selu. Atar obuhvata sva seoska zemljišta, poljoprivredna, šumska, neplodna, pod naseljem, vodotocima i putevima, kao i sve objekte i ostali inventar koji se nalazi na tom prostoru."

"_Seoski atar_ is territory with exactly defined boundaries that belongs to a village. _Atar _encloses all lands, agricultural, forestal, barren, covered by settlements, water surfaces and roads, and also all buildings and other inventory located there."


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## Kazuma

Duya said:


> Well, it's an area of the settlement plus accompanying uninhabited land.



Oh, I'm sorry this was a misunderstanding. I had already added "selo, opština, etc." in brackets to specify I'm referring to "naselje". I think English doesn't have a good word to say "naselje", while German does: Ort or Ortschaft. Simply a place where people live: city, town, village... with everything that belongs to it.



Duya said:


> But English word _area_ translates to multiple Serbian words:
> * _površina _means surface area, i.e. measurable physical area
> * _područje, oblast, region, _and, in this case, _atar_, means "a bounded area on earth's surface". (Atar specifically means "village's region").


 
Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that there are various words



Duya said:


> So, "površina atara", translated too literally, would come to _area of the area._



I think "area of land" would be better, where "area" translates "površina" and land is "atar"


Duya said:


> A German translation of "atar" might be "Bezirk", but I don't speak German to know the nuances.



No, I don't think Bezirk would do. Bezirk means "district" in administrative divisions or "ward" (spec. Stadtbezirk). Bezirke are what you would call "okruzi", and we call your "okruzi" Bezirke.

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phosphore's translation just appeared while I was responding to Duya. It's exactly what I was referring to all the time, although not in a very articulate manner.

Thanks to both of you! Comments on my response to Duya's specificatians are still welcome!


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## sokol

Duya said:


> _Atar_, however, is not related with local government, but chiefly with land possession. _Cadastral division _is closer to the concept, but sounds too formal.





Duya said:


> A German translation of "atar" might be "Bezirk", but I don't speak German to know the nuances.





Kazuma said:


> Oh, I'm sorry this was a misunderstanding. I had already added "selo, opština, etc." in brackets to specify I'm referring to "naselje". I think English doesn't have a good word to say "naselje", while German does: Ort or Ortschaft. Simply a place where people live: city, town, village... with everything that belongs to it.


German "Bezirk" wouldn't do really - it is used only in Austria (in Germany they use "Kreis") and denotes an administrative unit approximately the size of 20.000 to 50.000 (or significantly more) inhabitants).

Neither does German "Ort, Ortschaft", this is similar in meaning to Serbian "selo", while Serbian "opština" again is rather the administrative unit, right? "Ort" may be used in the meaning of "opština" but typically just means "selo".

Historians sometimes use for the term "atar" (if I have understood the word correctly) the Slovenian word, "župa", at least in Austria (obviously because Slovenia is our neighbour - we took over the term from them): this means the local community "as a whole" which I think included all inhabitet and cultivated lands as well as not cultivated lands belonging to a village.
(Sometimes the term is used in the broader meaning of German "Bezirk" as explained in this Wiki article about "Gespan".)

This kind of local organisation - the "župa", or "atar" if indeed both are the same - was typical for the Southern Slavic area, and I guess it doesn't exist in Serbia in modern times, but the term "atar" (again, *if *I am right in paralleling this with "župa"), it seems, was retained, meaning nowadays "all land possessed by the inhabitants of a village", right?

In that case "cadastral community" ("Katastralgemeinde" in German) also wouldn't do because this just means an area defined according to tradition (usually in Austria a rural community - "opština" - would consist of several cadestral communities; there were 4 in the community where I grew up), and it is completely irrelevant if all land-owners within a cadestral community were inhabitants of the same village or different villages.

So overall, I don't think that there is an appropriate translation for "atar" in English. I think I would leave the word untranslated and explain it in a footnote - that is, in case the exact definition of "atar" really would matter.
(Because in a novel it might not.)


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## Kazuma

sokol, I agree with you although I'm not an expert either.

Just one thing, in Bavaria there are Bezirke (districts). They are congruent with the Regierungsbezirke (administrative district, upravna područja) but serve different purposes. You can read about it here (in German).

As for "atar", I understand now what it is. For my translation, though, the specific meaning of the term is not so important and Gesamtfläche (total area) will do here.

Thanks again to everybody!


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## sokol

Kazuma said:


> Just one thing, in Bavaria there are Bezirke (districts). They are congruent with the Regierungsbezirke (administrative district, upravna područja) but serve different purposes. You can read about it here (in German).


Right, I forgot about them.  They are one level above what is a _Bezirk _in Austria, and as such represent an intermediate level between _Land _and _Bezirk_ (Austrian use) for which we have no equivalent in Austria.

And concerning the translation of "atar", if the specialised meaning is not relevant for your context you can really use any governemental unit which approximately is of the same size as the "atar" of your text.


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## Duya

sokol said:


> This kind of local organisation - the "župa", or "atar" if indeed both are the same - was typical for the Southern Slavic area, and I guess it doesn't exist in Serbia in modern times, but the term "atar" (again, *if *I am right in paralleling this with "župa"), it seems, was retained, meaning nowadays "all land possessed by the inhabitants of a village", right?



I'm not so sure about "župa"; that term is retained only in several toponyms so I wouldn't know the exact meaning. I suppose it's about the same as "atar".

As for "atar", I don't think that it is (or ever  was) "all land possessed by the inhabitants of a village" in the strict sense. Surely you can purchase land in a village other than yours. I think that "atar" is an older legal term denoting all the land in village's "region" (for lack of a better word). See below...



sokol said:


> In that case "cadastral community" ("Katastralgemeinde" in German) also wouldn't do because this just means an area defined according to tradition (usually in Austria a rural community - "opština" - would consist of several cadestral communities; there were 4 in the community where I grew up), and it is completely irrelevant if all land-owners within a cadestral community were inhabitants of the same village or different villages.



I don't think that "atar" is still a legal term, though it's obviously still in occasional use. I suppose that it was legally superseded by term "katastarska opština" (cadastral municipality, not to be confused with "opština/municipality (proper)", which is a larger unit); most villages, except smallest ones, have a cadastral municipality. So, I think that _atar_ is the same as _Katastralgemeinde_ -- it's chiefly traditional, but it's still used for some legal/statistic purposes. See for example here:

*



			Noviji podaci  dalje svedoče da je Orlovatski atar imao blizu 9.000 k.j. u ovu cifru je  uključen i Orlovatski rit od 1.932 k.j. i 99 kv.hv. koji se nalazi izmedju  Dunava i čente.
		
Click to expand...

*Translation: Newer data further witness that _atar_ of Orlovat had nearly 9,000 cadastral acres (?). That figure includes the Orlovat swamp, of 1,932 cadastral acres and 99 square fathoms, located between Danube and Čenta.

And, by the way, I wonder about the etymology of the word "atar". Apparently, it's not Turkish or German, but it doesn't sound common Slavic either. Anyone?


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## Duya

P.S. Googling for atar katastarska opstina shows that the terms are used interchangeably, and on few occasions there even stands "_Katastarska opština_ (_atar_)". I suppose that resolves the issue.


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## phosphore

I agree with you; _župa_ is rather an administrative term related to government, while _atar_ is related to cadastre.

If you are interested in etymology, I think you should search for _hatar_.


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> If you are interested in etymology, I think you should search for _hatar_.



Not in Turkish online dictionaries, and only some 300 Google hits on *.tr domains, not particularly convincing.


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## Kazuma

Hey, that's a good idea!

Since the Serbian-to-English dictionary also gives "limit" and "limits" as translations, two terms that may refer to a "boundary" or "circumscribed area" (eingegrenztes Gebiet), it might be related to this term.

*EDIT:* This entry in another online dictionray gives even more translations, among them all the terms appearing in the Serbien online dictionary including "pale". But instead of "area" it gives "march" (Mark).

It's also used here.


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## Kazuma

The word "pale" might be the missing English term we were looking for, see Wikipedia and the Oxford Dictionary.


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## sokol

Duya said:


> P.S. Googling for atar katastarska opstina shows that the terms are used interchangeably, and on few occasions there even stands "_Katastarska opština_ (_atar_)". I suppose that resolves the issue.


Well, there we are then, it really seems to be "Katastralgemeinde".

As for etymology - Hungarian, possibly??


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## Kazuma

sokol said:


> Well, there we are then, it really seems to be "Katastralgemeinde".



Yep, I'm quite sure it's this. After another afternoon of research, this one is the most likely we found. In Germany, however, we don't have Katastralgemeinden but Gemarkungen, which are not that different. I decided to add both to my notes.



sokol said:


> As for etymology - Hungarian, possibly??



Please see my above links.


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## The Wombat

Kazuma said:


> Hello, I'm translating a text from Serbian to German and came across the word "*atar*". I tried to figure it out myself but I'm still unsure whether "surface" or "area" will do here. After almost despairing, I eventually found it in the Webster's online dictionary as "limits, pale, area, limit".



G'day

Perhaps a bit too late, nevertheless I am sure that I can shed some light on this. I cannot point out exact words in German, but I am sure to translate it into meaningful English. 

Serbian word "*атар*" translates literally into *domain *in English, referring to the area that is encompassed by the village, the complete village range,  and is under the village jurisdiction, governed by villagers through the village administration.

Another common Serbian word meaning the same as "*атар*" is "*подручје*", so if You wanted to say:

- Сеоски атар ... 

You may as well have said:

- Сеоско подручје ... 

Just as one would refer to complete town by saying:

- Градски атар

or

- Градско подручје

The closest word in my (poor) German, that I can think of, would be "*bereich*", although I am not quite sure of it.

Cheers


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## iskon

Атар is common in Macedonian especially when there is a news story reported from a mountainous village. The word describes the area that precedes a village which is enclosed from two or three sides.


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## Diaspora

I think the word "atar'" can also mean a knight or horseman form the word "at"-horse. Can anybody confirm this.


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## Коста

I thought _atar_ could be one of many Turkish words incorporated into colloquial Serbian, but in Turkish it has no meaning even close to to "territory." I am not sure where this word comes from, but it surely doesn't sound Slavic.


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## sokol

Коста said:


> I thought _atar_ could be one of many Turkish words incorporated into colloquial Serbian, but in Turkish it has no meaning even close to to "territory." I am not sure where this word comes from, but it surely doesn't sound Slavic.


It is Hungarian; we've established that already in this thread, see posts above.


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## Коста

sokol said:


> It is Hungarian; we've established that already in this thread, see posts above.


 Much obliged! 

By the way, Serbian also borrowed a number of Hungarian words besides атар, such as варош (town), ковач (balcksmith), Беч (Vienna), астал (table), etc.


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