# Another king and law.



## Laranja

Hello, folks.

I was wondering what would be the correct translation to the phrase:
"We will give you another king and another law"

I thought about:

"Altram legem et altrum regem tibi daremus"

But I'm almost sure I've made some mistakes. I have no idea if the word "alter" can be used this way and, in addition, I don't know if I used the verb correctly (I'm taking latin classes, but we haven't learned the future tense yet).

I'd be glad if someone helped me, not only because of the sentence itself, but also to I see what I've been misunderstanding.

Thanks =)


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## Peano

I think _alius _ may be fitter than _alter _.
And the future of the 1st & 2nd conjugation verbs is made with the particle -bi- (The use of the particle -re- is a later Romance invention).
So: 
_Aliam legem et alium regem tibi dabimus_

PS: I think you may already need to purchase something like the "Pocket Oxford Latin Dictionary". This includes a good summary of grammar.


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## Eroi Del Mare

Laranja said:


> Hello, folks.
> 
> I was wondering what would be the correct translation to the phrase:
> "We will give you another king and another law"



Mas....essa frase me parece muito perta a...._*Faccetta Nera*_

wiki


> ....
> We will give you another law and another king
> .....


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## Laranja

Peano said:


> I think _alius _ may be fitter than _alter _.
> And the future of the 1st & 2nd conjugation verbs is made with the particle -bi- (The use of the particle -re- is a later Romance invention).
> So:
> _Aliam legem et alium regem tibi dabimus_
> 
> PS: I think you may already need to purchase something like the "Pocket Oxford Latin Dictionary". This includes a good summary of grammar.



I was aware that "alter" could not be the correct word. Anyway, did I get it correctly at least? _atram legem, altrum regem_?

I know that "alter" has a meaning that is next to "the second one". What is the accurate meaning of "alius"? 

Thanks for the helping hand.


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## Laranja

Eroi Del Mare said:


> Mas....essa frase me parece muito perta a...._*Faccetta Nera*_
> 
> wiki




Eu estava ouvindo Faccetta Nera por curiosidade e achei a música divertida. A frase "noi ti daremo un'altra legge e un altro re" me chamou a atenção, pois pensei que conseguiria vertê-la para o latim com os (poucos) conhecimentos que tenho até o momento. Eu gosto muito de fazer essa comparação entre o latim e as língua neo-latinas, até mesmo quando se trata de assuntos "mórbidos" como hinos fascistas =)

Não se preocupe, meu interesse é meramente acadêmico/científico.


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## CapnPrep

Laranja said:


> Anyway, did I get it correctly at least? _atram legem, altrum regem_?


No…  The unstressed _ĕ_ disappeared in Vulgar Latin (and so we have _-tr-_ in all the Romance languages), but it must be maintained throughout the paradigm in Classical Latin. You can see the full declension in Wiktionary.


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## Laranja

CapnPrep said:


> No…  The unstressed _ĕ_ disappeared in Vulgar Latin (and so we have _-tr-_ in all the Romance languages), but it must be maintained throughout the paradigm in Classical Latin. You can see the full declension in Wiktionary.




Ahh... alteram and alterum.
Thanks a lot.

Damn e


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## Peano

Laranja said:


> What is the accurate meaning of "alius"?



*alius, alia, aliud* _adj _another, different, changed
(Pocket Oxford Latin Dictionary)

Anyway I fear this definition is not wholly accurate, because the primary meaning seems to be "some" according to old sentences like this: 
*alii sementem faciunt, alii metunt* (Erasmus, _Adagia_) = Some do the sowing, some (others) do the harvest.

The derivates of *alius *confirm this:
*aliquis *(someone), *aliquid *(something), *aliquantus *(some quantity), *aliquando *(sometimes), etc.


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## Cagey

_alius_ does not mean an indefinite "some".  Most generally it means another (singular) or others (plural). 

In constructions like your example, _alii_ .... _alii _.... most literally means _"others ... others ...."  _However, that is not idiomatic English.  In English, we express the idea with "some .... others ...."


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## Peano

Cagey said:


> _alius_ does not mean an indefinite "some".



So, how do you explain all the set of Latin *ali-* derivates meaning "some-"?


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## grecia capta

*ali- *o meglio *ἄλλος *(allos greco antico) non ha il significato di "some-" ,quando unisci *ἄλλος *con quis quae quod quid (da *τίς* (tis) greco antico ) etc etc si acquisce il significato di "some-".Non c'è Greco senza Latino ,non c'è Latino senza Greco...dovrebbero essere insegnate insieme...._Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit...._


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## Peano

grecia capta said:


> Non c'è Greco senza Latino ,non c'è Latino senza Greco...dovrebbero essere insegnate insieme


Of course I agree. I look at my "Oxford Greek Mini Dictionary" and see that:
_*állos *_= other ; _*alloú *_= elsewhere
_*kápios *_= some ; _*kápou *_= somewhere
But as well I see that _*állos *_(pron.) = some. So the same ambiguity is seen in Greek...

I fear the pronouns and determiners may be the hardest point of a language. I suspect that _*alius *_might be defined as someone different to the ones we know (_ego_, _tu_, _is_, _ea_, _id_...). _Alius _might be just someone unknown, or "someone else".


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## bibax

Alius also can mean _different, changed_.

*Alii nunc sunt mores.* Plautus, Bacchides

_(Os costumes agora são outros. Os tempos não são iguais.)_


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## Laranja

So if I understood correctly _alius _would be translated as _another _or _some other_ most of times and _alter_ as _the other one_.
I know that translating from latin to english in an inglorious mission, but I think I got the meaning now.

Thanks everybody


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## grecia capta

Peano said:


> But as well I see that _*állos *_(pron.) = some. So the same ambiguity is seen in Greek...



*ἄλλος *se associato con altri pronomi (come in latino)  significa some- , non so se questo caso è riportato nel "Oxford Greek  Mini Dictionary", ma nel Dizionario Greco A.- Italiano (autore Rocci)  viene specificato. Poi include degli esempi : τίς ἄλλος - Omero (qualche altro ),ἄλλο οτιυον (un altro qualunque o un altra cosa qualunque) - Pl (dovrebbe essere Plutarco),etc etc.

Prova a verificarlo qui,spero che i link siano corretti,dovresti selezionare Middle Liddell, che fa' un accenno a questa regola:

ww.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Fllos&la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a%29/llos-contents

 I m sorry, but i don t write on english because i risk to write some bullshit.


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