# Am Mittwoch, dem/den (discussion in English)



## Schimmelreiter

*Moderator note*: Split off from this thread. 



bearded man said:


> Sorry, I do not agree with perpend
> To me it an accusative for time determination.  If you use a feminine noun like 'Woche', you say 'letzte Woche' in the accusative, not (an der) letzten Woche, and with neuter 'leztes Jahr'' not '(am) letzten Jahr'.


Exactly. Also _Mittwoch_ in _Mittwoch war ich in Erfurt_ is _accusative of time.
_

A great many native speakers suspect there's an elliptical _am_ _(+ __dative)_ where there isn't, wrongly saying (and writing in invitations) things like:

_*Die Veranstaltung findet Mittwoch, dem 12. August, statt.
_
where only

_Die Veranstaltung findet Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt.
_
and, of course,

_Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *dem* 12. August, statt.
_
are correct.


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## ablativ

Schimmelreiter said:


> Exactly. Also _Mittwoch_ in _Mittwoch war ich in Erfurt_ is _accusative of time.
> _
> 
> A great many native speakers suspect there's an elliptical _am_ _(+ __dative)_ where there isn't, wrongly saying (and writing in invitations) things like:
> 
> _*Die Veranstaltung findet Mittwoch, dem 12. August, statt.
> _
> where only
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt.
> _
> and, of course,
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *dem* 12. August, statt.
> _
> are correct.



In order to make the list complete, it is also possible to write:

_Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt._


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## Schimmelreiter

ablativ said:


> In order to make the list complete, it is also possible to write:
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt._


Only over my dead body!

An apposition requires agreement.


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## ablativ

Didn't you really know that? See Duden pls.


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## Sowka

Or Dr. Bopp at canoo.net:



> Bei Datumsangaben bei einem Wochentag sind sowohl der Akkusativ als auch der Dativ möglich. Siehe Canool.net: Ordinalzahlen, Datumsangaben.
> 
> Beide Möglichkeiten sind somit korrekt:
> 
> “Ich lade euch am Freitag, den 12.12.2006 ein” oder
> “Ich lade euch am Freitag, dem 12.12.2006 ein”



The direct link to the canoo.net article (the one given in Dr. Bopp's comment doesn't work properly for me).



> Nach einem Wochentag im Dativ kann das Datum auch im Akkusativ stehen:
> 
> 
> 
> am Montag, dem 8. Septemberauch:  am Montag, den 8. September
> bis zum Montag, dem 8. September  auch:bis zum Montag, den 8. September


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## Schimmelreiter

Who is Dr. Bopp to rescind the law of appositional agreement?


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## Sowka

This topic has been discussed before.


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## Schimmelreiter

ablativ said:


> I remember you saying that canoonet is highly regarded in your opinion. Dr. Bopp is the main author of canoonet.


Even reputable people will, at times, overstep their authority. I simply don't think the law of appositional agreement may single-handedly be pronounced inapplicable here.

What is the systematic difference between

_Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt.

_and

_*Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.

_or, with both nouns masculine,
_
*Der Zettel hängt *am* Kühlschrank, __*den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen in unserer Familie._


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## Liam Lew's

_< ... >_
Just as a side note: I'd never ever use "am Montag, den 12. August". It contradicts to what I learnt early in primary school.


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## ablativ

Schimmelreiter said:


> Even reputable people will, at times, overstep their authority.



And so does Duden? 

< ... >


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## Schimmelreiter

ablativ said:


> Schimmelreiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even reputable people will, at times, overstep their authority.
> 
> 
> 
> And so does Duden?
Click to expand...

There’s no Académie Allemande.


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## ablativ

Schimmelreiter said:


> There’s no Académie Allemande.



But, please, never ever refer to "Duden" in one of your future posts ...


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> What is the systematic difference between
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt.
> 
> _and
> 
> _*Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.
> 
> _or, with both nouns masculine,
> _
> *Der Zettel hängt *am* Kühlschrank, __*den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen in unserer Familie._


I suppose this is one of those cases where usage has won over grammar. Fact is that this construct is widely used by educated speakers in oral and written communication.


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## ablativ

This phenomenon is called "absoluter Akkusativ". It's is an example of a genuine ellipsis.

This is how it is to be read: "Der Zettel hängt am Kühlschrank, (den haben wir in der Küche stehen als) den zentralen Ort für alle Infos in unserer Familie".

This is even a highly sophisticated way of expressing oneself.

Or more simple: _Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, (angeschafft als) *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.
_


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## Schimmelreiter

ablativ said:


> This phenomenon is called "absoluter Akkusativ". It's is an example of a genuine ellipsis.
> 
> This is how it is to be read: "Der Zettel hängt am Kühlschrank, (den haben wir in der Küche stehen als) den zentralen Ort für alle Infos in unserer Familie".
> 
> This is even a highly sophisticated way of expressing oneself.
> 
> Or more simple: _Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, (angeschafft als) *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.
> _


I made up those intentionally incorrect sentences, marking them with asterisks, as I spoke out against the mainstream acceptance of _am + den _in expressions of _day + date._


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## ablativ

Schimmelreiter said:


> I made up those intentionally incorrect sentences, marking them with asterisks, as I spoke out against the mainstream acceptance of _am + den _in expressions of _day + date._



In my opinion, those sentences are *not *incorrect and there is no reason to mark them with asterisks as explained above.


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## perpend

I hope this is somewhat on-topic. What if the second part included the verb "gelten".

_Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, das als zentraler Ort für all wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni gilt.
_
Then it's "das", or not?  Ich werde verrückt. I guess I'm asking if there's a clear verb included in the last clause, does that change the game?


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## Schimmelreiter

perpend said:


> Ich werde verrückt.


Don't.


perpend said:


> _Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, das als zentraler Ort für all*e* wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni gilt.
> _
> Then it's "das", or not?


Yes, it is, because you convert the apposition into a relative clause, to which _gilt_ is a possible yet unnecessary addition. You might as well say

_Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, das der zentrale Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni ist.
_


perpend said:


> I hope this is somewhat on-topic.


It's on-topic to the extent that it shows the fundamental difference there is between a relative clause, where the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb of the relative clause, and an apposition, of which the case is required to agree with the noun to which it is an apposition.

The debate is over what I called above the mainstream acceptance of _am + den_ in expressions of _day + date _in contravention of the principle of case agreement between the noun, say *am Mittwoch* (dative), and its apposition, say _*dem 12. August*_ (dative).


PS
Might I add that I simply don't understand why ablativ should regard as correct what purposely incorrect sample sentences I made up and marked as such with asterisks in an attempt to defend my point by way of analogy. My lack of understanding is further aggravated by the fact that I considered the case to be closed following berndf's post below:


berndf said:


> Schimmelreiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the systematic difference between
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet_ *am* _Mittwoch,_ *den* _12. August, statt._
> 
> and
> 
> _*Die Information steht_ *am* _Schwarzen Brett,_ *den* _zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni._
> 
> or, with both nouns masculine,
> 
> _*Der Zettel hängt *am* Kühlschrank, *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen in unserer Familie._
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose this is one of those cases where usage has won over grammar. Fact is that this construct is widely used by educated speakers in oral and written communication.
Click to expand...


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## perpend

I feel less crazy!  I am very thankful that you broke that down, SR. Much appreciated. It helps me better understand the rest of the discussion.


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## bearded

Hello
On my part I would add that I find it sad that such an evident mistake should be so largely widespread....But then also in my language there are unfortunately many similar cases!


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## Schlabberlatz

In the version "... am Mittwoch, den ..." the second part ("den 12. August") can be seen as an "Aufzählungsglied im Akkusativ", a part of an enumeration, in accusative case. Source: _Duden - Richtiges und gutes Deutsch_, 3rd ed., 1985, p. 174.

Edit: Ich seh grad, dass das bei Dr. Bopp auch so steht, siehe Link weiter oben. Von daher war mein Post eher überflüssig.

Edit 2: Ah, sorry, it should be in English: I have seen that this is also mentioned in Dr. Bopp's statement, see the link above. Thus my post was rather unnecessary.


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## Schimmelreiter

Schlabberlatz said:


> In the version "... am Mittwoch, den ..." the second part ("den 12. August") can be seen as an "Aufzählungsglied im Akkusativ", a part of an enumeration, in accusative case. Source: _Duden - Richtiges und gutes Deutsch_, 3rd ed., 1985, p. 174.
> 
> Edit: Ich seh grad, dass das bei Dr. Bopp auch so steht, siehe Link weiter oben. Von daher war mein Post eher überflüssig.


That's all well and good but you might, by that same token, claim of any apposition there is that, well, actually, it isn't really an apposition but in fact an enumerative phrase.

_*Wir gedenken des Ausbruchs des Ersten Weltkriegs, die Urkatastrophe der Moderne.


"Oh, this only looks like an apposition but it isn't. Know what it is? It is an enumerative phrase."


_Tell you what. This is a ruse.


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## Schlabberlatz

> but you might, by that same token, claim of any apposition there is  that, well, actually, it isn't really an apposition but in fact an  enumerative phrase.


Maybe you're right, maybe not. Anyways, I think that the version with "den" sounds rather natural. Perhaps that's because in the past there was a rule that said you should not write "bei dunkle*m* bayrische*m* Bier" but "bei dunkle*m* bayrische*n* Bier". This m/n combination looks somewhat like the one in the example under discussion. In the Duden book I've quoted above it says that the old rule is sometimes still followed for reasons of euphony: "eine Flut von weißem elektrischen Licht ergoß sich breit in den Saal" (Th. Mann) (p. 24).


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## Liam Lew's

ablativ said:


> This phenomenon is called "absoluter Akkusativ". It's is an example of a genuine ellipsis.
> 
> This is how it is to be read: "Der Zettel hängt am Kühlschrank, (den haben wir in der Küche stehen als) den zentralen Ort für alle Infos in unserer Familie".
> 
> This is even a highly sophisticated way of expressing oneself.
> 
> Or more simple: _Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, (angeschafft als) *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.
> _



I agree with Schimmelreiter here. If I hear the sentence "Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, den zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni" I just cringe. I simply can't feel any implied phrase like "angeschafft als". I also think appositions require case agreement. The only reason why I don't cringe at "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" is that I've heard it so often that it just sounds normal.


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## Sowka

Liam Lew's said:


> I agree with Schimmelreiter here. If I hear the sentence "Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, den zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni" I just cringe. I simply can't feel any implied phrase like "angeschafft als". I also think appositions require case agreement.



I agree. And I would like to mention that canoo.net, quoted above, limits the use of the accusative to the temporal expression "Am (Wochentag), den (Datumsangabe)". 



> The only reason why I don't cringe at "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" is that I've heard it so often that it just sounds normal (but still incorrect).



I, too, still prefer the version "am Mittwoch, dem 12. August". But I would no longer say that "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" was incorrect because so many people use it, and because it has been accepted by Duden and other references. So I take my own stylistic decision and let other people take theirs.


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## Liam Lew's

Sowka said:


> I, too, still prefer the version "am Mittwoch, dem 12. August". But I would no longer say that "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" was incorrect because so many people use it, and because it has been accepted by Duden and other references. So I take my own stylistic decision and let other people take theirs.


Sorry, I expressed myself a little inappropriate. As a descriptivist, of course I don't consider "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" as incorrect. That was rather a note about my feeling. I removed the note.


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## ablativ

Liam Lew's said:


> I agree with Schimmelreiter here. If I hear the sentence "Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, den zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni" I just cringe. I simply can't feel any implied phrase like "angeschafft als". I also think appositions require case agreement. The only reason why I don't cringe at "am Mittwoch, den 12. August" is that I've heard it so often that it just sounds normal (but still incorrect).



I may be wrong but I can image that quite a number of people have not even heard of that "absoluter Akkusativ", myself included until some time ago.

To get an idea what it means,have a look at this thread. It's just one possible explanation of berndf's statement: 


> Fact is that this construct is widely used by educated speakers in oral and written communication.


Which - of course - does not necessarily mean that these constructs are grammatically OK. It's just an attempt at an expanation. 

Btw: I know pretty well what case agreement means. But why not being interested in new and different facets above and beyond and off beaten track of ideas.


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## Sowka

I don't think that the "absolute accusative" can apply here because this accusative always (as far as I can see) refers to something different from the item it describes.

In the thread you linked to: "dann tauchte das Dorf auf, *eine neblige Wildnis* auf der einen und *den Malheur-See *auf der anderen Seite." 
Or in the article I read today: "Er stand da, einen Dolch in der Hand..."

It's "das Dorf" that is described by "eine neblige Wildnis" (accusative) and "den Malheur-See" (accusative).
It's "er" that is described by "einen Dolch".

In the "Brett" example above, however, the accusative refers back to the noun it describes. And this is what doesn't work, in my opinion.

"Die Information steht am Schwarzen Brett, den zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni." 
"Die Information steht an unserem Schwarzen Brett, die Oberfläche blank poliert wie immer, den Schwamm auf seiner Ablage."  (bad example, I know; I can't come up with anything better right now )

It does indeed work with cases other than the nominative: "Dann begegnete das arme Schaf einem grimmigen Mann, einen Dolch in der Hand, der es an der Kehle packte und..." (  schnief....)


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## ablativ

Thank you for answering so promptly and for explaining why my ideas were wrong. I appreciate it.


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## Schimmelreiter

The _absolute accusative_ is similar, just similar to the _absolute ablative _of the one language that is rumoured dead but is quick as ever.


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## Gernot Back

Schimmelreiter said:


> What is the systematic difference between
> 
> _Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *den* 12. August, statt.
> 
> _and
> 
> _*Die Information steht *am *Schwarzen Brett, *den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen an unserer Uni.
> 
> _or, with both nouns masculine,
> _
> *Der Zettel hängt *am* Kühlschrank, __*den* zentralen Ort für alle wichtigen Informationen in unserer Familie._



To answer your question: In the first sentence _den 12. August_ is just a variation of _am Mittwoch_. They are both independent temporal adverbials indicating the same day. One is a temporal adverbial *with *the preposition _an_ and the other one is a temporal adverbial using a bare accusative (adverbialer Akkusativ) *without *preposition. It is not an appostion (nominal attribute to _Mittwoch_) because in that case the sentence would have to read:

_Die Veranstaltung findet *am* Mittwoch, *dem* 12. August, statt._​
The preposition _an_ always requires the dative case when used in a temporal meaning.



The other two sentences (the ones you marked with asterisks) are wrong, indeed, since there is no such thing as an adverbial accusative (without preposition) in a strictly local sense.

In the case of

_Ich bin diagonal durch den ganzen See(,) einen Kilometer geschwommen._​
... (again a variation of two adverbials, but this time indicating the same distance) the question would be 

_*Wie *__*weit*_ _bist du geschwommen?_​
rather than

_*Wo *bist du geschwommen?_​


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## Schimmelreiter

Thank you, Gernot. Your explanation has got what it takes. I find it convincing. Up until then ​I'd got stuck in the apposition stuff.


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## berndf

@Gernot: If your analysis is correct then _Die Veranstaltung findet den 12. August statt _must be a complete and grammatical sentence. Do you think this is the case? (The question is not rhetorical. I am really unsure myself.)


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## Schimmelreiter

There's that old phrase, e.g. _Gegeben den 15. August 1910 _or _Gegeben zu Berlin den 15. August 1910. __​(gegeben - datum)_

This shows the independent use of the adverbial accusative. Our modern "Datum" just leaves out the "datum" _(gegeben) _part.


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## Gernot Back

berndf said:


> @Gernot: If your analysis is correct then _Die Veranstaltung findet den 12. August statt _must be a complete and grammatical sentence. Do you think this is the case? (The question is not rhetorical. I am really unsure myself.)



_Die Veranstaltung findet *den 12. August* __statt.
_​_ 
sounds just as unusual to me as

__Die Veranstaltung findet am Mittwoch, *den* 12. August __statt._​
I wouldn't use either, but I guess both is correct. Why shouldn't it be correct?

_Den 12 August_ ​
...is just a temporal adverbial accusative like 

_jeden zweiten Mittwoch im Monat

_​_Die Veranstaltung findet am Mittwoch, den/dem 12. August wie jeden zweiten Mittwoch im Monat __statt._
(Wie-"Apposition")​


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## berndf

Gernot Back said:


> Why shouldn't it be correct?


Don't know. Just asking.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> There's that old phrase, e.g. _Gegeben den 15. August 1910 _or _Gegeben zu Berlin den 15. August 1910. __​(gegeben - datum)_
> 
> This shows the independent use of the adverbial accusative. Our modern "Datum" just leaves out the "datum" _(gegeben) _part.


I don't doubt there is a temporal accusative in German (and in other Germanic languages, for that matter). After giving it some more thought, I think what bothers me is that _am Montag_ expresses a point in time (i.e. Monday is a time period _within_ which and not _during_ which the event takes place) while the temporal accusative usually expresses a duration rather than a point in time, and _Die Veranstaltung findet den 12. August statt_ would (usually) means _The event takes place during the 12th of August_ rather than _The event takes place on the 12th of August_.

Hence,
_Die Veranstaltung findet Montag, den 12. August statt._
 and
_Die Veranstaltung findet am Montag, dem 12. August statt.
_both sound fine to me (the former describing the event as an extended period in time and the letter as a point in time) whereas
_Die Veranstaltung findet am Montag, den 12. August statt.
_I find semantically odd, as it suggests that the event takes place some time on Monday but during the (entire) 12th of August.


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