# apprivoiser / captiver



## nbr

Salut, dans le Petit Prince par Antoine de Saint-Éxupery, l'auteur emploie le mot apprivoiser quand il parle comment on établit une amitié.

J'ai toujours pensé sur la traduction qu'on fait en portugais et en anglais. En anglais on emploie "to tame", qui est fidèle à la version française. En portugais il y a aussi un mot pour "apprivoiser" [...], mais les traducteurs on préféré le cognat pour captiver [...]. Ce dernier mot me semble exactement ce qu'Antoine voulais dire, meilleur qu'"apprivoiser". Apprivoiser me rappelle de soumission et captiver de séduire.

Ma question est pourquoi trouvez-vous que le mot apprivoiser à été utilisé en lieu de captiver, c'est-à-dire, est-ce qu'en français la distinction entre apprivoiser et captiver n'est pas la même qu'en portugais (ou même cette que je vois en anglais)?

Les gens qui parlent l'anglais peuvent opiner sur la version anglaise, aussi, s'il vous plaît (je crois n'être pas nécessaire d'ouvrir un autre fil dans English-Français...)
     Merci!


----------



## zaby

Bonjour nbr,

En français, captiver veut dire "éveiller un grand intérêt" ou bien "retenir captif, prisonnier". Je ne connais pas le portugais mais c'est probablement un faux-ami.
Apprivoiser est différent de dompter, dans dompter, il y a une idée de force, de soumission, pas dans apprivoiser.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

zaby said:


> Bonjour nbr,
> 
> En français, captiver veut dire "éveiller un grand intérêt" ou bien "retenir captif, prisonnier". Je ne connais pas le portugais mais c'est probablement un faux-ami.
> Apprivoiser est différent de dompter, dans dompter, il y a une idée de force, de soumission, pas dans apprivoiser.


 
Il est peut être bon de souligner que "captiver" ne s'emploie plus aujourd'hui dans le sens de "retenir captif" - l'article du TLF indique "vieux"- , au contraire de "capturer" qui a bien toujours ce sens.
Tout à fait d'accord avec cette différence entre "apprivoiser" et "dompter". La définition du Dictionnaire Robert la confirme:
"apprivoiser": " Rendre moins craintif ou moins dangereux, rendre familier, domestique.  On "dompte" un fauve, un lion, mais on "apprivoise" un oiseau, un petit animal.  Employer un mot qui équivaudrait à "dompter" fausserait le sens du texte de Saint Exupery


----------



## nbr

Merci de vos réponses. Je ne connaissais pas le TLF, je vais l'utiliser désormais. Donc, je présume que captiver et apprivoiser ont un sens imbriqué, n'est-ce pas? Selon le TLF:

 captiver: Gagner et retenir l'intérêt de quelqu'un par une sorte de fascination quasi irrésistible [...]
 apprivoiser: Séduire, charmer progressivement [...]

Je crois que ma doute reste sur la version anglaise, donc. Parce que "to tame" semble "dompter". Ils pourraient utiliser "to captivate". Peut-être j'ouvre un fil dans le forum English-Français.

 Merci!


----------



## jefrir

"to captivate" n'as pas le même sense en anglais - c'est plutot "fasciner". On peut dire, par exemple, "He was captivated by her beauty", mais on ne l'utiliserais pas pour des animaux. "To tame" veut dire "dompter" et "apprivoiser"; on ne fait pas le difference en anglais.


----------



## nbr

À mon avis, la meilleure traduction en anglais serait "to captivate" donc. Parce que le renard (un ami) "captivates" le Petit Prince (un autre ami). Il lui séduit. Bien que "to tame" veut dire "dompter" et "apprivoiser", le sens de dompter est encore là. C'est logique ce que je dis?

Peut-être "apprivoiser" et "to tame" (et non [...] to captivate) on été utilizés de façon a maintenir un peu l'idée de "dompter", "conquérir".

Ma confusion peut-être vient du fait que en portugais le mot est "captiver", et qui a du sens de séduire seulement.


----------



## papillon

The word captivate, in my opinion, wouldn't work in this context. The meaning is easiest to explaining in the form "captivating". If something is captivating, it is generally very interesting, fascinating, perhaps you can't stop thinking about it. 

I never read the English version of PP, but in my opinion _tame_ is also not the best word. Although to tame has the same general idea as apprivoiser, it is usually applied to taming some powerful "wild beasts". You can tame a lion, a wild horse or a bear... 

A better English word would split the difference between "to tame" and "to domesticate"... But the problem is, I don't think there is one...


----------



## alain larochelle

Not sure of the purpose of the thread anymore, but how about: The little Prince conciliated the fox? (Maybe even coaxed ?)
--> But a little googling shows tame has been adopted by most translators. In context it feels good. After all tame has a lame side! not only forceful.


----------



## Gez

Befriend could be used, I think.


----------



## alain larochelle

AH AH*!* Le mot que je cherchait *!* *...  *


----------



## roland098

I think tame is the right word. St Ex's use of the word apprivoiser is very much an individual, idiosyncratic thing in Le PP. You would not normally talk about 'taming' (or apprivoiser) a friend in everyday life. 'Taming' and apprivoiser are words that are used to indicate a human establishing a rapport with an animal so it is not afraid, usually through a series of training procedures. This may or may not include the emphasis on domination and force that is suggested by 'dompter' (which sounds most suitable for a person successfully taming a dangerous or powerful animal - as in the English word a lion-tamer), but generally includes an element of the human being in charge and superior to some extent.

The usage in Le PP almost creates a new definition - it is a human creating a bond with an animal and stopping it from being afraid (taming/apprivoiser) but with a very positive slant which comes from the fact the fox in question is a talking, intelligent fox which _wants_ to be tamed - it wants the PP to carry out certain actions so it will feel comfortable with him, get used to him, and consider him a friend. Tame is still the right word, and seems quite charming and original in context.

Befriend gives the right idea, but loses some of the meaning.


----------



## nbr

roland08, I guess you're right about Éxupery creating a new definition. That's the possibility I raised when I wrote in previous post 





> "Peut-être "apprivoiser" et "to tame" (et non [...] to captivate) on été utilizés de façon a maintenir un peu l'idée de "dompter", "conquérir"."


And this is probably, as you raised, because the story involves a fox and a human (well, the prince is not exactly human  ), so using apprivoiser was made on purpose, instead of captiver. And to tame followed this.

Thanks for the insight, it's good to have opened this thread because I really had doubts about the employment of both apprivoiser and tame, and of my understanding of the shades of the meaning of to tame. Your post showed me that my understanding was correct, but that there is a reason why the word was chosen.

Merci a tous!


----------



## lamoufette

Il se peut que St Exup. ait choisi le mot 'apprivoiser' du a l'aspet metaphorique du chapitre sur le renard. N'oublions pas qu'il ecrivait entre les 2 guerres mondiales, alors l'idee d'apprivoiser, de calmer la peur, de s'aprocher l'un de l'autre, de 'faire des liens' est un theme majeur du livre. Il y a le chasseur qui tue les renards, mais le petit prince est CAPABLE d'apprivoiser, de s'apprivoiser, capable of taming his wild nature.  St. Ex. nous invite de reflechir a la difference entre l'homme et l'animal.


----------



## jinhae

Hmm, je reste persuadee que l'emploi de creatures non humaines (la rose, le renard...) est lie au caractere merveilleu du livre, et illustre d'avantage la diversite qui existe au sein des hommes plutot que la difference entre l'homme et l'animal...

D'ou l'enorme difficulte de traduire "apprivoiser", et je rejoins ce qui s'est dit jusqu'a maintenant "To tame" n'est pas approprie, et *Befriend *serait la meilleure traduction, bien qu'elle ampute le texte de cette metaphore de l'amitie, illustree ici avec un petit enfant (le petit prince) qui apprivoise son animal (le renard).


----------



## RegretteRien

Dans le chanson "Aux Champs-Elysees" Joe Dassin chante : "Il suffisait de te parler pour t'apprivoiser."  Exemple un peu bete, mais j'ai l'impression qu'ici le sens du mot est "to befriend" plutot que "to tame", du moins en ce qui concerne les humaines.


----------



## bmarotta

I just read Le PP in Italian. I had the same confusion about that sentence, because I remembered [the Porguguese translation] which in my opinion changed completely the sense of the sentence.

In Italian [has] the same absence found in Portuguese for a completely analogous word for "apprivoiser".

In my opinion the biggest issue [...] (please French speaking correct me if I am wrong) is that to captivate is a passive action. You can captivate somebody without meaning to do it and, in ASE's mind, will this make you responsible for this person?

Apparently, this is quite a big problem for the translator, an probably none of them will capture the real meaning of this sentence in other language than the French.


----------



## Asa Lovejoy

I understand very little French, but several francophone friends have said much the same as those of you who see "tame" as insufficiently rich.  The exchange with the fox, I think, is metaphoric, so that the anthropomorphism may properly extend to the idea of "befriend."  One slowly becomes a friend as one learns  attitudes, customs, etc, much as an animal slowly develops trust in a human.  Does this seem reasonable?


----------



## Outsider

Here's another idea: "housebreak"... though I admit that the "break" component might tend to give it a negative, dominating connotation.


----------



## Outsider

I heard another word a few days ago that I thought might be a good translation of _apprivoiser_: to mark.


----------



## Asa Lovejoy

I still feel that "befriend" is best, based on the overall context.  Consider that the fox addresses the PP with the familiar "tu," and he says that he has no use for wheat, but if he is (befriended,) the color of wheat will remind him of the color of the PP's hair, and it will become important to him.  This suggests the intimacy of friendship, not the subjugation of taming.  Later he applies this line of thinking to the many roses he discovers - roses in which he has no investment as he does HIS rose.

Although I read French poorly, I just reread the above passage in the original French and feel all the more strongly that "befriend" fits well.  However, the next paragraph says, "J'ai des amis à découvrir et beaucoup de choses à connaître," so St-Ex was not using apprivoiser as "befriend" in a usual manner.  He did not say, "des autres amis."  So, for me the case is not closed.  Such are the mysteries of language!


----------



## Outsider

My impression is that "befriend" puts the two participants on equal standing, while "apprivoiser" suggests a more unequal relationship, which the fox enters with greater immaturity than the Little Prince. More like the relationship between a teacher and a pupil, or between a parent and a child (the fox acting as the child) than a relationship between equals. But, as others have said, Saint-Exupéry puts an entirely positive spin on this kind of relationship, the Little Prince having the role of educating/bringing up/raising (_élever_) the fox.


----------



## Jasmine tea

Outsider said:


> My impression is that "befriend" puts the two participants on equal standing, while "apprivoiser" suggests a more unequal relationship, which the fox enters with greater immaturity than the Little Prince. More like the relationship between a teacher and a pupil, or between a parent and a child (the fox acting as the child) than a relationship between equals. But, as others have said, Saint-Exupéry puts an entirely positive spin on this kind of relationship, the Little Prince having the role of educating/bringing up/raising (_élever_) the fox.



En effet, le verbe "apprivoiser" en français a un deuxième sens (par analogie, par extension) qui est de "rendre plus confiant, plus doux, moins craintif" (cf. sites cntrl et reverso). On est bien dans l'idée d'éduquer, d'élever. Cela me fait penser, dans un autre registre, à la "Mégère apprivoisée" (The taming of the shrew) de Shakespeare!


----------



## Keith Bradford

A few years ago I directed _The Taming of the Shrew_, and quoted St Exupéry extensively in the programme. I'm delighted to know that French makes the distinction between _dompter _and _apprivoiser_, because that exactly reflects the relationship in the play, as I see it. Petruchio helps Kate to rise from being a violent shrew (an animal : _une musaraigne_) in Act 1 to becoming a civilised human being in Act 5, using psychological means - not violence against her to keep her down.

Unfortunately, the _dompteur de fauves _is also an _animal-*tame*r _in English, so we can't distinguish the nuance. Is that why the play is so often misconstrued, I wonder?


----------



## Wodwo

RegretteRien said:


> Dans le chanson "Aux Champs-Elysees" Joe Dassin chante : "Il suffisait de te parler pour t'apprivoiser."



Another song example would be Barbara's "Sans Bagages", where she says, "Je t'apprivoiserai, les lumières éteintes". "Tame" has always seemed to me the wrong translation - you wouldn't exactly want to "tame" a lover, or at least not in this context, no suggestion of S and M or domination, it's more about winning the other person over, getting them to drop their guard and open up.

I quite like "befriend" - which moreover turns up in Paul Simon's lyric about a sexual encounter with a canine simile in the song "Duncan": "She took me to a wood saying, here comes something and it feels so good and just like a dog I was befriended."

"Befriend" isn't quite right either though. If we can think this as English speakers (and we clearly can) we must be able to find a way to say it.


----------



## verolmc

alain larochelle said:


> AH AH*!* Le mot que je cherchait *!* *... *





Gez said:


> Befriend could be used, I think.


it is the closest translation for me as well although some nuance is missing.  In apprivoiser the one who is "apprivoisé", keeps her freedom.  there is more space less enmeshment in apprivoisé than befriended. it is definitively not domesticated, the other doesn't give up her wildness...


----------



## Wodwo

Wodwo said:


> Another song example would be Barbara's "Sans Bagages", where she says, "Je t'apprivoiserai, les lumières éteintes".


Thinking again about my specific example of a lover who is already a friend, I wonder if an English equivalent might be, "I will make you mine".


----------



## Locape

But then it should be in French 'je te ferai mien' or 'tu seras à moi', quite possessive! 'Apprivoiser' has the meaning you gave in post #24, getting them to drop their guard and open up. It conveys the idea that the animal or the human chooses to get closer to you and get to know you.


----------



## Wodwo

Well no, back translation into French doesn't really tell you what it means in English. "I'll make you mine" is a fairly anodine phrase in pop songs. It's open to interpretation – could mean "we'll become romantically involved" or "I'll have sex with you" and all points in between. It doesn't have to mean, "I'm going to take over your life". 

For examples of its use in English I suggest 60s songs such as "Will you still love me tomorrow" by Carole King ("tonight you're mine completely, you give your love so sweetly... so tell me now and I won't ask again, will you still love me tomorrow?") or various songs by The Beatles - or Gloria by Them, reprised by Patti Smith... There are probably more recent examples too but these songs are all still around and I don't pick up lyrics so easily these days.


----------



## Locape

Thanks for the clarification, it's true then the direct French translation means something different. But it's a little odd to say 'je t'apprivoiserai' about a lover, the word is of course carefully chosen. You don't find it in many love songs, it may be personal, but I think it implies that the lover is a little wild or shy, and conveys for me the idea of patience (I'm not going to jump on (?) you, we're going to take our time).


----------

