# jouer aux/les apprentis sorciers



## pari

I wonder how to translate this phrase'Avant de jouer aux apprentis sorciers,j'espere que tu viendras nous en parler d'abord'
Will it be correct like this'I hope y7ou 'll come to talk to us before practicing the black magic/witch craft'?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
For "jouer les apprentis sorciers", I found "to play God"


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## Cath.S.

pari said:
			
		

> I wonder how to translate this phrase'Avant de jouer aux apprentis sorciers,j'espere que tu viendras nous en parler d'abord'
> Will it be correct like this'I hope you 'll come to talk to us before practicing the black magic/witch craft'?


_Jouer les apprentis-sorciers_ is not literally about magic, it just means to try out potentially risky things. What is the person the sentence is said to planning on undertaking?


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## timpeac

Hmmm, so is this phrase normally figurative or literal or both depending on the context?

If literal, a nice phrase you may want to consider is "to dabble in black magic". You often use that collocation and "dabble" contains the suggestion of being a learner, "putting your big toe into the water".

Edit - posted at the same time as Egueule, but I'll leave it for information.


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## timpeac

If figurative how about "before taking things into your own hands" (often used when people take retribution themselves rather than waiting for the appropriate authority or normal "complaints" procedure).

"To play God" is quite a strong phrase, used when you have a lot of power over someone. Little boys may like to play god by pulling the wings off flies. They may grow up to be doctors who like to do the same thing, figuratively, with their patients (body or perhaps their genes...) A boss may enjoy "playing God" when he sacks someone. In fact I think "playing God" is always acting in a bad sense. If you went and stopped world poverty, for example, I don't think anyone would say you were playing God.


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## Cath.S.

timpeac said:
			
		

> If figurative how about "before taking things into your own hands" (often used when people take retribution themselves rather than waiting for the appropriate authority or normal "complaints" procedure).


We really need context here.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

The "apprenti sorcier" is still a learner. He is not an experienced guy. Moreover, he "plays" (joue). So he has great chances to fail in what he is going to start for the first time... (so he'd better get advices from people who know)


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## timpeac

Reviewing a google list the context seems most often to be of the sort where someone not properly qualified has "had a go at something" (particularly in a medical context). I would therefore suggest that "before having a go yourself please come and see us first", faute de more context.


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## timpeac

Hehe, phrase I've just invented but I like (the arrogance!) - "Before being a Mr have-a-go Joe, come and see us".


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## marget

Is there any chance you are referring to the "Sorcerer's Apprentice"?
Check this site:  http://www.answers.com/topic/the-sorcerer-s-apprentice


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## geve

Somehow I relate the French phrase to the child's game with which children can do simple scientific experiments... Could we find something along this line in English? 

(not bad, Mr self-applauding Tim!  )


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## marget

geve said:
			
		

> Somehow I relate the French phrase to the child's game with which children can do simple scientific experiments... Could we find something along this line in English?
> 
> (not bad, Mr self-applauding Tim!  )


Of course, it's jouer _aux_ apprentis sorciers_._ I missed that!


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## geve

marget said:
			
		

> Of course, it's jouer _aux_ apprentis sorciers_._ I missed that!


I didn't mean to say that the science box was the explanation! The expression could also come from that poem from Goethe: in French, in English and German... or just from the common sense that an apprentice will necessarily make mistakes which might create much trouble.  

I _think_ we can use it in the singular too: _Jouer à l'apprenti sorcier_. Qu'en pensent les autres ?


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## geve

Ben justement...



> *[Par allusion à la ballade de Goethe der Zauberlehrling (1797)] Apprenti sorcier.* Celui qui se livre imprudemment à des expériences dangereuses dont il ne sait pas maîtriser le cours ni éviter l'issue catastrophique


J'adore Google et le TLFi ! 

Mais enfin tout ça ne nous dit pas comment le traduire en anglais... (since apparently it hasn't become a set phrase in English)


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## timpeac

geve said:
			
		

> Somehow I relate the French phrase to the child's game with which children can do simple scientific experiments... Could we find something along this line in English?
> 
> (not bad, Mr self-applauding Tim!  )


How about "before you start playing at being a junior Einstein"? This does have connotations of trying to be intellectually clever rather than scientifc experiment-wise, but I think could work.


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## timpeac

geve said:
			
		

> (since apparently it hasn't become a set phrase in English)


No, it hasn't, to my knowledge. If someone said "he is a sorcerer's apprentice" then, although I know the story very well, it would at least cause me to pause and ponder what might be meant, using context if possible.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

geve said:
			
		

> Somehow I relate the French phrase to the child's game with which children can do simple scientific experiments... Could we find something along this line in English?
> 
> (not bad, Mr self-applauding Tim!  )


About the game, isn't it "Le petit..." something, instead? Like "Le petit chimiste"?


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## viera

_




*Apprenti sorcier*.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_Celui qui se livre imprudemment à des expériences dangereuses dont il ne sait pas maîtriser le cours ni éviter l'issue catastrophique (from TLFi).

This is not restricted to science experiments, but can refer, for example, to using amateur psychology in trying to solve a human relations problem.


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## geve

timpeac said:
			
		

> How about "before you start playing at being a junior Einstein"? This does have connotations of trying to be intellectually clever rather than scientifc experiment-wise, but I think could work.


Ah oui ! So, will the junior Einstein manage to build an atomic bomb by accident??



			
				geve said:
			
		

> I _think_ we can use it in the singular too: _Jouer à l'apprenti sorcier_. Qu'en pensent les autres ?


I've just checked, and the plural wins by far on a googlefight...

--edit: oui, Karine, 'le petit chimiste", c'est ça !


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## pari

Thanks to all the thoughts,suggestions and explanation.
I ve noidea of this game in French so anybody can explain to me please.
The context is simply the adult is warning the child not to do any early experience (experience precoce) before coming to talk to the parents first.The reason for this remarks is because her daughter got pregnant.
Before this sentence.The mother said'C'est juste ma fille. C'est une demonstration scientifique.'
Is there any connection here between 'demonstration scientifique' and 'apprentis sorciers'?


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## timpeac

From what you say it sounds like an adult is explaining the "facts of life" to a child "this is biologically and theoretically what happens" but "before you feel tempted to put theory into practice come and talk to us first".


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## pari

Thanks so much ,it makes sense to me now.


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## geve

I agree with Tim. I find it a bit strange to use "apprenti sorcier" in this context actually, as to me "jouer aux apprentis sorciers" means you're trying things because you're interested in what will come out of it - here obviously the result (pregnancy) is not what is expected from the "experiment"...

(The game I was referring to (le petit chimiste) is a box filled with scientific material suitable for children, with which they can learn and test simple science stuff)


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## KaRiNe_Fr

But some young and silly daughter might not know all the consequences (i.e. possible pregnancy) of "experimenting a man"...  And this experiment has not only this well known consequence!


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## viera

Since the girl is already pregnant, we are beyond explaining the facts of life. Sounds to me like the parents are warning her against trying a do-it-yourself abortion.

"Jouer à l'apprenti sorcier" has nothing to do with playing games. It is an attempt at a novel solution to a serious problem, often with unexpected and even tragic results. For example: a drastic diet; trying to cure cancer by non-conventional means...


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## geve

viera said:
			
		

> Since the girl is already pregnant, we are beyond explaining the facts of life. Sounds to me like the parents are warning her against trying a do-it-yourself abortion.


I had understood that an adult was talking to a girl about _another_ girl who got pregnant, which should act as a counter-example...


			
				viera said:
			
		

> "Jouer à l'apprenti sorcier" has nothing to do with playing games. It is an attempt at a novel solution to a serious problem, often with unexptected and even tragic results. For example: a drastic diet; trying to cure cancer by non-conventional means...


And that's why it seemed strange to me to use it in this context!


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## viera

Geve:
Pourtant la définition de TLFi est claire...


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## geve

viera said:
			
		

> Geve:
> Pourtant la définition de TLFi est claire...


Oui, en effet, à la relire, ça pourrait bien correspondre...


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## Kelly B

How about "before you try/start playing with with fire."


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## geve

Kelly B said:
			
		

> How about "before you try/start playing with with fire."


Ah oui, en effet, on dit ça aussi en français "jouer avec le feu". Le sens n'est pas exactement qu'on tente des solutions hasardeuses sans savoir ce qui en sortira, mais plutôt qu'on fait quelque chose de dangereux ; il me semble que c'est quand même assez proche du sens...


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## ChiMike

geve said:
			
		

> I didn't mean to say that the science box was the explanation! The expression could also come from that poem from Goethe: in French, in English and German... or just from the common sense that an apprentice will necessarily make mistakes which might create much trouble.
> 
> I _think_ we can use it in the singular too: _Jouer à l'apprenti sorcier_. Qu'en pensent les autres ?


 
Yes, indeed it could!  And from the Mickey Mouse version set to Dukas' music in Disney's _Fantasia_. So it might just be that "before trying to be sorcerer's apprentices [or "apprentice sorcerers" but I don't like that as much] would not be lost on an anglophone audience clearly ready for more Harry Potter, because they can't get more of Alice, even when she's ten feet tall.

Admittedly, it's not as good as the hippos in toe shoes dancing the hours. 

Remember what the dormouse said.


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## geve

ChiMike said:
			
		

> Yes, indeed it could! And from the Mickey Mouse version set to Dukas' music in Disney's _Fantasia_. So it might just be that "before trying to be sorcerer's apprentices [or "apprentice sorcerers" but I don't like that as much] would not be lost on an anglophone audience clearly ready for more Harry Potter, because they can't get more of Alice, even when she's ten feet tall.
> 
> Admittedly, it's not as good as the hippos in toe shoes dancing the hours.


I think we've already established that "sorcerer's apprentice" didn't work as a translation of what's become a set expression in French  
Did you find a suggestion in Lewis Caroll work maybe?


			
				ChiMike said:
			
		

> Remember what the dormouse said.


Although I've read _Alice in Wonderland_ very recently (mieux vaut tard que jamais), I had to check: do you mean "feed your head"? (even if it seems that the dormouse never said such a thing, in spite of what Jefferson Airplane might sing)


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