# 수 많은 열을 세도록



## idialegre

I am trying to understand the phrase 수 많은 열을 세도록.

The only idea I have is "There are many ways (or many possibilities) to count to ten." But I have a feeling that my translation is not correct.

Could someone be so kind as to help?


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## kenjoluma

Could you provide us with more context please? This is not even a complete sentence.

My best guess is, 열 here means 열(列). It means file or people in file (line, or a queue). But again, I need more context to verify if my assumption is correct or not. 

Maybe 열 here is misspelled. It may be 별 (stars). 


Who knows...


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## idialegre

Kenjoluma, thanks for answering, and excuse me for not providing any context. 미안합니다!

Here is the text of the song:

수 많은 열을 세도록 수 많은 날이 가도록
기다릴께요 힘이 들고 아파도
그대가 내게 오는 날 다시 난 놓치지 않게
뒤로 걷는 연습을 오늘도 해요


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## idialegre

Thanks, Kenjoluma. But I still am not sure I understand the meaning of the phrase *수많은 별을 세도록. 

*Does it mean, "There are many ways to count the stars"?


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## kenjoluma

In order to count the 'countless' stars, [and blah blah]
Or simply 'to count the countless stars 

[note that it is a very literal translation]


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## kenjoluma

Funny there is a post related to '-도록'.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2081162

수많은 별을 세*도록*...


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## idialegre

Yes, I was following the thread on  도록 also.   I guess, if I understand correctly, it's what we call the causative in English.

At the risk of trying your patience, I will ask one last question about  수 많은 별을 세도록.  I am just trying to understand the provenance of 수 많은 . Is this the same 수 as in 할 수 있다 ?
And if  수 많은  translates as "countless", are there other similar constructions with 수 + verb + 은  that translate as "verb-less" or "un-verb-able"?

Sorry for all the questions, but I really love your language and want very much to understand it!


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## kenjoluma

idialegre said:


> I am just trying to understand the provenance of 수 많은 . Is this the same 수 as in 할 수 있다 ?



Eh... no. 수(數) here means 'number'. Some people write it '수 많은' with a space in between however it should be '수많은' and this compound word itself should be considered as one adjective, not two different words.


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## irani11

> But I still am not sure I understand the meaning of the phrase 수많은 별을 세도록.




First of all, about the link attached, you are right. It is causative verb that corresponds with '~도록' in those examples shown in  the link. But '도록' in '수많은 별을 세도록' is completely different in meaning. I believe this 도록 was put to rhyme with the following verse '수많은 날이 가도록' , as is often seen in lyrics.
Being quite similar to 'to-infinitive', 도록 usually denotes an expression of purpose.
but here,, it is very tricky to classify which category of expression does this fall to. I would say this is the expression of the 'degree' with which to emphasize the time expression.
If I am right about this, the phrase is equivalent in meaning to 

'수많은 별을 셀 정도로 (긴 시간 동안)' = so long as I can count  many stars in the sky. (당신을 기다릴게요I will be waiting for you..)   
It is fairly long. How long? 
I-can-count-all-the-stars-in-the-sky long.
It is long enough that I can count all the stars.

But I have to admit I doubt if I am correct.
Because there is a different nuance in the following example as far as I see it.

ex)밤을 새도록, 그는 열심히 공부했다.
- I think here 밤을 새도록 is kind of felt to be 밤을 샐 정도로, which modifies 열심히.
He studied so hard that he stayed up all night.
but,
일년이 다 지나가도록, 그는 아무 소식이 없었다.
- Over the year, I haven't heard anything from him.
Until the end of the year, I haven't ~





> I am just trying to understand the provenance of 수 많은 . Is this the same 수 as in 할 수 있다 ?
> And if 수 많은 translates as "countless", are there other similar constructions with 수 + verb + 은 that translate as "verb-less" or "un-verb-able"?





Again, very difficult to discern the function of '수' in '할수있다.'
With the help of dictionary, I can barely tell but a fuzzy distinction exists here too. Because the dictionary indicates it (수) is a noun. but i don't see it that way instead i suggest you consider 할수있다 as 'able' although 할수있다 is not an adjective. Just as able can take various forms such as unable, enable, disable, and ability, 할수있다 changes its form various ways. 할수있는, 할수있음, 할순없다, 할순없는, 할수있을지도 ........

I'm sure that 수 is different from that of 수많은.
Here, 수, the best translation it think is 'in number'
많은(many) is adjective stemming from the verb 많다.(There are many)
so 수많은 becomes "many in number."
Because 수 is originated from noun 수(number), 수 only goes with the number related expression.

For similar constructions, I can't think of verbs that go with it. 
but many nouns can. 수년동안, 수세기동안, ...

Countless can be interpreted from 수많은, but I think the exact adjective is 수없이 많은. (numberlessly many, many in numberless way)


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I'm also asking many many questions to native English teachers, making them tired. It is quite fun to realize what I felt reading your post is probably what you, native speakers of English, would feel when asked to give a explanation.^^ 
I am neither a professional linguist nor a Korean teacher. There is a very good chance my explanation is (completely /partly) wrong. So be aware of this. 

I think it takes a lot of courage to learn Korean. I can't imagine of myself learning it as 2nd language. There are just so many variations. Good luck!^^


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## idialegre

kenjoluma and irani11, thank you so much!

아주 잘 살명해 줬어요! 정말 감사합니다!!

I think I understand, but your explanations also show me how much I still have to learn. So I will get back to work...


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