# English vs British



## James Zhang

Hi, friends.

I found trouble with understanding the sentence 'The influence that the English had upon our national eating habits is easy to see', which, like my previous thread, also comes from the article _*The Frugal Gourmet Cooks American*_ by Jeff Smith (the check work is done, just the same as the original version).

I'm confused by the two words *British and English* as the Oxford Chinese-English dictionary 4th edition tells that the term *the English* refers to the people of England (sometimes wrongly used to mean the British, i.e. to include Scots, the Welsh...etc) - sense #2 of the definition for the word.

But frankly I think the word English in this sentence should mean all the people of all the parts of Britain, right? So, did Mr. Jeff Smith wrongly use this word or have things already changed so that it is correct using the word this way??? Or, do I just misunderstand the writer?

Thanksssssssssssss!


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## francois

Hi 
English is used for people living in England.
British includes people from England, Scotland, Wales.(Great Britain)
United Kingdom = Great Britain + Northern Ireland.


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## Edwin

francois said:
			
		

> Hi
> English is used for people living in England.
> British includes people from England, Scotland, Wales.(Great Britain)
> United Kingdom = Great Britain + Northern Ireland.



Of course, you might want to take into consideration the fact that many English speaking people are not aware of these distinctions and use English, British, citizen of Great Britain, and citizen of the UK, synonymously.  

It would be interesting to know the percentage of citizens of the United Kingdom that are aware of these distinctions.
I'm sure most citizen of the US are not aware of them.


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## Benjy

Edwin said:
			
		

> Of course, you might want to take into consideration the fact that many English speaking people are not aware of these distinctions and use English, British, citizen of Great Britain, and citizen of the UK, synonymously.
> 
> It would be interesting to know the percentage of citizens of the United Kingdom that are aware of these distinctions.
> I'm sure most citizen of the US are not aware of them.



i would be surprised if there were any that didn't. that would be like someone from the states not knowing the difference between california and the usa.


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## languageGuy

I think Jeff Smith used the term correctly.  English influence is much stronger on Amercian food, than are Scottish and Welsh influences.


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## James Zhang

Hi, friends, thank you!

The discussion here is interesting and my supposition that Jeff Smith, an american writer, may not know the distinctions, is grounded (do I use the word correctly here?) in some way- but just in some way, as languageGuy holds different views with Edwin over this issue. 
But I think that one thing is for sure that People in UK may well know these differences.

Learnt a lot every time!

Many Thanks, friends!!!!!!!


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## pedro30

Sorry...but I haven't understand yet the difference between English and British...Someone said that English can just refers to the language and not to the nationality....

- I'm british and I speak english.
not 
- I'm english and I speak english.....

Is that correct ?


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## Egmont

pedro30 said:


> Sorry...but I haven't understand yet the difference between English and British...Someone said that English can just refers to the language and not to the nationality....
> 
> - I'm british and I speak english.
> not
> - I'm english and I speak english.....
> 
> Is that correct ?


Both can be correct, or they could be if you used capital letters to start the words _British_ and _English_. However, their meanings are different. As it says in post #2, you are British but not English if you are from Scotland or Wales. The Scots and the Welsh, with few exceptions, speak English.


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## pedro30

Egmont said:


> Both can be correct, or they could be if you used capital letters to start the words _British_ and _English_. However, their meanings are different. As it says in post #2, you are British but not English if you are from Scotland or Wales. The Scots and the Welsh, with few exceptions, speak English.




I've always thought this, but yesterday I got in trouble on this...
I heard about saying British as one from one of the states of Great Bretain isnt' correct....British means only from England.....


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## Egmont

pedro30 said:


> I've always thought this, but yesterday I got in trouble on this...
> I heard about saying British as one from one of the states of Great Bretain isnt' correct....British means only from England.....


People make mistakes. Whoever said "British means only from England" was wrong. It's as simple as that.


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## Keith Bradford

pedro30 said:


> ... I heard about saying British as one from one of the states of Great Bretain isnt' correct...



I certainly isn't.  However, British meaning from one of the *countries or provinces *of the *United Kingdom *certainly is correct.  British does not mean only from England, any more than Italian means only from Tuscany.


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## pedro30

Egmont said:


> People make mistakes. Whoever said "British means only from England" was wrong. It's as simple as that.





According to what I heard, things are like this:

English= language only
British= from England only


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## Keith Bradford

You heard wrong.

English = (a) from England (b) the language
British = from Britain, of course.


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## velisarius

I think I get what you're saying. Someone who speaks British English is not necessarily English. "I am British" (nationality). "I speak English" (language). Only someone from England (especially if he is of English descent) will say that he is English when defining his nationality.


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## pedro30

Keith Bradford said:


> You heard wrong.
> 
> English = (a) from England (b) the language
> British = from Britain, of course.




So correclty British could refer to any person from Great Britain (Wales, England, Scottland) ?


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## pedro30

velisarius said:


> I think I get what you're saying. Someone who speaks British English is not necessarily English. "I am British" (nationality). "I speak English" (language). Only someone from England (especially if he is of English descent) will say that he is English when defining his nationality.




No, i mean that (still standing to what I heard) English is just the language, never a nationality.


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## Keith Bradford

pedro30 said:


> So correclty British could refer to any person from Great Britain (Wales, England, Scottland) ?



No.  As I said in post 11, "British" is a statement of nationality, and the name of the national state is "the United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".  You forgot Northern Ireland.

NI is part of the UK, like Sardinia and Sicily are part of the state of Italy.


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## sound shift

English certainly is a nationality. When asked to state their nationality, most people born in England will choose the term "English".


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## Keith Bradford

Yes, but they'd be wrong.  There is no such nationality recognised in law. Whatever we say of ourselves, we are all *Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies* or (in everyday speech) *British*.


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## sound shift

No, they wouldn't be wrong. Citizenship and nationality are not the same. The former is a legal concept; the latter is broader than that.


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## Keith Bradford

Sound Shift, I think you're making a distinction which, though perhaps widely held, is a misconception.

When I worked in this field, I (and all the professionals around me) made the clear distinction between *ethnicity *(English, Welsh, British Asian, Black, Chinese...) and *nationality *(British Citizen, French Citizen, Jamaican Citizen, Pakistani Citizen, etc...).  The concept of "an English national" did not exist.  Page 1 of my passport states:

*National status (Nationalité):   British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies*.

Do you think people are allowed to redefine their nationality according to their feelings?


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## london calling

Keith Bradford said:


> Yes, but they'd be wrong.  There is no such nationality recognised in law. Whatever we say of ourselves, we are all *Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies* or (in everyday speech) *British*.


I agree. I might say I'm English, i.e. I'm from England, but if I refer to my nationality I say I'm a British citizen. A common misconception:  here in Italy for example they often  say "English Citizenship" or "English Passport" or "the English" (people) to indicate all the inhabitants of the British Isles.


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## Egmont

velisarius said:


> I think I get what you're saying. Someone who speaks British English is not necessarily English.


That is correct. "British" here is an adjective. It describes a dialect of the English language. Someone who speaks British English (BE) can be from anywhere: from England, from another part of Britain, from the United States, from Australia, from Italy, from China or from Mars. We call it "British English" in part because the phrase "English English" sounds odd.


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## sound shift

Keith Bradford said:


> Sound Shift, I think you're making a distinction which, though perhaps widely held, is a misconception.
> 
> When I worked in this field, I (and all the professionals around me) made the clear distinction between *ethnicity *(English, Welsh, British Asian, Black, Chinese...) and *nationality *(British Citizen, French Citizen, Jamaican Citizen, Pakistani Citizen, etc...).  The concept of "an English national" did not exist.  Page 1 of my passport states:
> 
> *National status (Nationalité):   British Subject: Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies*.
> 
> Do you think people are allowed to redefine their nationality according to their feelings?


Keith, I think this is a case of official, legalistic use vs popular use, rather than a misconception. A non-legalistic definition of "nation" is "any group that feels itself to be a nation", and on that basis "English" is a nationality. If several people said, "I'm English" and you asked, "What do you mean by that?", I think more of them would mention "nationality" than would mention the rather bureaucratic "ethnicity".


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## Keith Bradford

No, I do think it's a misconception. "_I'm a British citizen_" or "_I'm British_" is perfectly everyday language, as many a Scot, Ulsterman or Welshwoman will tell you.  It's only us from the fourth province who sometimes get it wrong.  We even refuse to acknowledge that it's our ethnicity that's English, and that England as a separate nation ceased to exist in 1536 when it annexed Wales to form Britain.  And we wonder why we're disliked for it!


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## pedro30

You went too far...I just asked if it's correct saying " I'm English and I speak English " ...or English can be only the language


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## JustKate

Lots and lots and lots of people say "I'm English" when asked their nationality. I think you are very safe in assuming that "I'm English" is perfectly idiomatic.


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## PaulQ

sound shift said:


> English certainly is a nationality. When asked to state their nationality, most people born in England will choose the term "English".


The difference lies in the technicality. Since union with Wales and Scotland (and later the division of the island of Ireland) 'English' ceased to be a nationality any more than Scottish or Welsh. The test is, "Which country will accept you as a national?" The Scots, Welsh and English (and the Ulsterman) are all accepted by Britain. The country in its full title is "The United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland (UKBNI)." The operative word is "United".

Those who say they are Scots, Welsh, English, or Northern Irish speak of their regional origins within the Union and are to be considered as speaking in the same way that e.g. the Cornish speak of their regional origins.



Keith Bradford said:


> Yes, but they'd be wrong.  There is no such nationality recognised in law. Whatever we say of ourselves, we are all *Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies* or (in everyday speech) *British*.


Exactly. I'm English by virtue of descent and birth but this is not a nationality. I agree with the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish that the distinction of regional origin should be made within the UK. 





> So correctly British could refer to any person from Great Britain (Wales, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland) ?


Yes.


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## Andygc

pedro30 said:


> You went too far...I just asked if it's correct saying " I'm English and I speak English " ...or English can be only the language


pedro, many British people will say "I'm English". Whether or not they think that is their nationality is neither here nor there and most of them couldn't give a fig about the legal niceties that have spread themselves over this thread. All they care is that their passports will get them onto a Ryanair or EasyJet flight to some sunshine.

 It is a perfectly normal thing to say "I'm English". I am more likely to say "I'm British", but that's only because I have a pretty mixed family tree and I wouldn't think it worth the effort of trying to sort out what percentage is English, Scottish or non-British northern European. So no, "English" does not mean only the language.


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## glamorgan

JustKate said:


> Lots and lots and lots of people say "I'm English" when asked their nationality. I think you are very safe in assuming that "I'm English" is perfectly idiomatic.


My wife used to do this. On our first visit to the United States of America she wrote on her visa waiver form that England was her country of citizenship. The immigration officer suggested that she might care to reconsider this claim...


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## glamorgan

PaulQ said:


> The country in its full title is "The United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland (UKBNI)." The operative word is "United".


The political entity of which England is a part actually calls itself "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The "Great" being the geographical name of the largest island of the British Isles and not a claim to any kind of intangible greatness.


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## George French

Andygc said:


> pedro, many British people will say "I'm English". Whether or not they think that is their nationality is neither here nor there and most of them couldn't give a fig about the legal niceties that have spread themselves over this thread. All they care is that their passports will get them onto a Ryanair or EasyJet flight to some sunshine.
> 
> It is a perfectly normal thing to say "I'm English". I am more likely to say "I'm British", but that's only because I have a pretty mixed family tree and I wouldn't think it worth the effort of trying to sort out what percentage is English, Scottish or non-British northern European. So no, "English" does not mean only the language.



I would never say I am English, unless someone had a knife to my neck telling me to say that. I am a *British Citizen*, that's what's in my passport. I happen to be Welsh. I was bred, born and brought up there. The Union may start to break up within the next few years because of the "attitude" of the English as perceived by the Scots. They are not legal niceties..... 

There is a referendum being held on 18 September 2014 in Scotland that could/probably lead to independence for Scotland. See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence.

GF..

Then what happens to the rest of the Union?


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## JulianStuart

Here are four sentences from the wiki on the UK.  The first version of the text was written in 2002 and I'm sure most of the "errors" have been "eliminated".


> The name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" was adopted in 1927 by the Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act.
> 
> Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country,  England, Scotland, Wales and (more controversially) Northern Ireland are  also regarded as 'countries', though not sovereign states.
> 
> The adjective _British_ is commonly used to refer to matters  relating to the United Kingdom. The term has no definite legal  connotation, however, it is used in law to refer to UK citizenship and matters to do with nationality. British people  use a number of different terms to describe their national identity and  may identify themselves as being British; or as being English,  Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, or Irish; or as being both.



The English language is used in all the "countries".


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## Forero

Can a person be Cornish, English, and British at the same time? But not Welsh and English?


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## Loob

pedro30 said:


> You went too far...I just asked if it's correct saying " I'm English and I speak English " ...or English can be only the language


I'm English = I'm from England.

I speak English = I speak the English language.  I might be from England, from India, from Canada, from Australia...





Forero said:


> Can a person be Cornish, English, and British at the same time? But not Welsh and English?


Yes, you can be Cornish + English + British.

But you can't be Welsh + English - not unless (for example) your father is Welsh and your mother is English.


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## Egmont

Forero said:


> Can a person be Cornish, English, and British at the same time? But not Welsh and English?


You can be all of the first three, because Cornwall is in England and England is in Britain. Indeed, if you are Cornish, you are also English, and if you are English, you are also British. You cannot be the second two, because Wales is not in England; both are parts of Britain.

By analogy: You can be from Phoenix, Arizona and the U.S. at the same time. Indeed, if you are from Phoenix, you are also from Arizona, and if you are from Arizona, you are also from the U.S. You cannot be from California and Nebraska at the same time; both are parts of the U.S.


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## Andygc

George French said:


> I would never say I am English, unless someone had a knife to my neck telling me to say that.


But your minority status is not hugely relevant to pedro's question, which was whether or not the word English should only be applied to the language, and not be used as a means of expressing national identity. You may choose not to call yourself English, but when there's masses of cheering fans at a six-*nations *rugby match, one lone George French voice saying "I'm British" won't be heard above the thousands saying "I'm English".

You'd have to go to a football match to have a knife held to your neck.


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## purpleannex

This thread is hilarious! 

Of course you can be English and speak English, where do you think the language comes from? Whose language is it?

My identities (just to confuse the issue a little more!) are, in order of area sub division, depending on who i'm talking to:

a. Essex (more often, call myself Suffolk as I was born there and live right on the border)

b. East Anglian

c. English

d. British


I would use a. when speaking to other Brits (or anyone who seemed intelligent from another country).

I would use c. when speaking to Americans! _<< Chatspeak removed >>_  ...along with many other nationalities who have no concept of "Britain"

I would use d. for official purpose.

I would use b. when I want to distinguish my ethnicity.

It's hardly surprising most of the world think of Great britain as being England when at least 3/4 of the population of this realm are English. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have tiny populations more akin to English regions. There are far more Londoners than there are Welsh! 

When i'm abroad I often describe myself as English because I know that's a term they will understand as a geographical/political area, though I seldom think of myself as being English in a geographical sense, it's much more than that. I don't use "English English" because it's simply English, they are synonymous. _<< --- comment deleted --- >>_


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## leebro

'The influence that the English had upon our national eating habits is easy to see.' I think this sentence is correct. It is food specific to England (not food from Scotland, Wales or Ireland) that had the influence.


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## london calling

Minority status, Andy? George is Welsh. Hardly surprising he does not consider himself to be English! 

Getting back to pedro's question, I think it is by now perfectly clear that we all speak English, regardless of our origins, but that only people born and brought up in England consider themselves to be English. I identify myself as such but, as I mentioned above if you ask me what nationality I am I will say I am British (although I in fact hold two passports, as does my son, who was born here in Italy).


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## purpleannex

Well, the Welsh ARE a minority! Though I did think the same thing as you...



languageGuy said:


> I think Jeff Smith used the term correctly. English influence is much stronger on Amercian food, than are Scottish and Welsh influences.



In answer to the original question, I don't know Jeff Smith or his book, but my logical assumption would be he has no concept of the difference between British and English. 

My reasoning is thus: I'm English/British, other than Haggis for the Scots and Welsh rabbit for the Welsh and to a much lesser extent the English (British) eating beef from the 18th century onwards, I can't think of any difference between English, Welsh and Scottish food?


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## Nunty

Moderator note:

This thread was begun in 2005, when the forum had a different nature and far-ranging discussions were allowed. That is no longer the case.

Please confine the discussion to the difference between the meanings of "English" and "British" as Pedro asks in the post that reopened the thread.



> Sorry...but I haven't understand yet the difference between English and British...Someone said that English can just refers to the language and not to the nationality....
> 
> - I'm british and I speak english.
> not
> - I'm english and I speak english.....
> 
> Is that correct ?



Thank you.


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## Andygc

london calling said:


> Minority status, Andy? George is Welsh. Hardly surprising he does not consider himself to be English!


 Oops!    Still a minority, but then why would anybody want him to call himself English? I think I'm looking at the question in a different way from George. I certainly agree that English (nationality) is not a synonym for British (nationality), but I don't think pedro was asking if it is a synonym, but only if it is acceptable to describe oneself as English ... and it is.


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## George French

Andygc said:


> You may choose not to call yourself English, but when there's masses of cheering fans at a six-*nations *rugby match, one lone George French voice saying "I'm British" won't be heard above the thousands saying "I'm English".
> 
> You'd have to go to a football match to have a knife held to your neck.



Have you ever been to a Wales versus England rugby match in Cardiff? *The Welsh suddenly behave as one*. I was never a lone Welshman in Cardiff Arms Park or later in the Millennium Park...

I only revert(ed) to being British the next day.


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## Pedro y La Torre

England was, until very recent years, used to refer to the whole of the U.K. (just as "Russia" was used by many as shorthand for the USSR, which makes sense really as England dominates and drives the UK in the same way that Russia drove the old USSR).
Churchill and Orwell were noted authors who made use of "England" in this way.

Outside of the UK, "England/English" remains, in many countries, the principal means of referring to that state; the French and Spanish are serial offenders in this regard.
In Ireland, the country we won (partial) independence from is "England" (though technically, of course, it should be the U.K.)

I would be minded to agree with Keith that as England has now technically been sublimated into a UK state, it can no longer be referred to as a "nationality".
There is certainly no such thing as a "Northern Irish" nationality.

We all still, though, refer to the "King/Queen of England".


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