# ktana (and other words with consonant clusters)



## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> I put the little 'a' between the 'k' and the 't' because they are clustered and pronounced together, but there is a slight shwa sound between them.


 Not to my ears.


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## Josh_

How does it sound to your ears?


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## elroy

_Ktana_.  No schwa.  But hey - my answer is only based on what I've heard, which could be unreliable.   I guess we'll have to wait for natives to resolve this for us.


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## Josh_

'k' and 't' are letters that cannot be pronounced together.  There is a break between them.  And that break to me sounds like an 'a', albeit a very, very short 'a'. I didn't mean to imply that it was big, but that it is noticeable.  Maybe my writing that little 'a' could be misleading

Anyway, we agree that the 'k' and 't' are clustered and pronounced as close together as possible.


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## elroy

Do you hear anything between the "c" and the "t" in "pact"?


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## Josh_

I hear a break.  But, also, the cluster occurs after the aid of a vowel which facilitates pronunciation.  When there's no vowel in front, pronunciation becomes harder.  Arabic uses the alif to aid in pronunciation in foreign words that start with a consonant cluster, i.e. اسطبل .  Spanish is also this way.  My Spanish professor would tell us that Spanish words of this nature need a running start, so to speak.


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## elroy

You are right about Arabic and Spanish, but I still don't hear a break in "ktana" - certainly nothing to merit phonetic representation.


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## pachyderm

קטנה is pronounced Ktana.

There is no Schwa in modern Hebrew accent. In Biblical Hebrew there did exist a Schwa; it is represented in the Tiberian diacritic system: the two vertical dots under the letter were in some cases pronounced as Schwa and in some cases as a "zero" sound, i.e. no vowel at all. The phonology of Biblical Hebrew did not allow two consecutive consonants in the beginning of a syllable ("consontant cluster"), and therefore the Schwa sign on the first consonant was invariably pronounced. In some older accents of Hebrew (Yemeni, Ashkenazi etc) you can still hear people pronouncing קטנה as Ketana. Today, however, many clusters are pronounced, probably due to the influence of Central and Eastern European languages, which were the native languages of the Hebrew language "revivers" in the beginning of the 20th century. In some cases the "e" sound is still pronounced:
ילדים - Yeladim, not Yladim (but: כלבים Klavim)
פעמים - Pe'amim, not P'amim (but: פרחים Prachim)
מלמד - Melamed, not Mlamed (but in rapid speech הוא מלמד "humlamed").


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## Nunty

I'm a native speaker, but grew up in a home where we also spoke Yiddish and English and where we prayed in Ashkenazi Hebrew. (Think Mea Shearim, Geula, etc.) In normal speech I would say _ktana_, i.e. no schwa, but if I were singing, reading poetry, or speaking slowly and carefully, I would pronounce a shwa.


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## Flaminius

[Elroy, please split the thread if you see it fit]

I am learning Hebrew mostly with Spharadic accent.  Ktana is always uttered in two syllables; [kta.na].  When it follows a vowel, however, the consonant cluster splits as in the colloqual expression for "Not a big deal";
בקטנה (ba-qTana)
[bak.ta.na]

Could anyone corroborate this?

The syllabic boundary in this environment could be heard as an interceding vowel without the throat being actually vibrated.


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## pachyderm

How can you tell that the syllable boundary in "baktana" is after the [k] sound and not before it?


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## Flaminius

I wrote בקטנה is syllabified as [bak.ta.na] because I seem to hear the K in this expression with less plosiveness than that in the independent קטנה. In other words I am saying the K belongs to the first stress group "bak" and ט commences another stress group, "ta".  Syllables are by definition stress groups consisting of one vowel and consonants or consonant clusters that surround it.

However, if בקטנה is generally pronounced as קטנה having [ba] before it but without any change, my point does not stand.


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## Nunty

What about בקצרה? I pronouce it as bi-ktza-ra.

Or, moving away from the initial kuf, we have תקופה, and here I pronounce a definite schwa between the tav and the kuf, maybe because Hebrew tends to start syllables with a consonant and end them with a vowel. But not being a בלשנית I'm just blowing smoke here.


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## Nunty

pachyderm said:


> There is no Schwa in modern Hebrew accent. In some older accents of Hebrew (Yemeni, Ashkenazi etc) you can still hear people pronouncing קטנה as Ketana.



Very interesting. I wonder if that is because in "ashkenazis"  we still pronounce tav (sav) and tet differently. Or could it be because we pronounce the long "kometz" in the final syllable?


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## Flaminius

Nun-Translator said:


> What about בקצרה? I pronouce it as bi-ktza-ra.


Nihil obstat......


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## pachyderm

Nun, didn't understand your question...


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## Nunty

pachyderm said:


> Nun, didn't understand your question...


איזה? שאלתי שתי שאלות.


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