# if I loved



## adventrue

I was posed the following question:

""If I had loved" translates to "sevseydim".
What does "If I loved" translate to?"

 I thought also "sevseydim", but am I not wrong on this?

It is best to imagine a context sentence: 
"If I had loved him, I would have stayed with him"
Eger onu sevseydim, onunla kaliyordum.

"If I loved him, I did not show it"
"Eger onu sevseydim, onu hic göstermedim"


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## ortak

"If I loved him, I did not show it"
"Eger onu sevseydim, onu hic göstermedim" 

Bu cümlede bir yanlışlık var, ne demek istediğini tekrar düşün. ( It sounds weird and I think it is not sensible. Think on it again logical aspect)

Diğerlerinde sorun yok, doğru.


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## shafaq

I think you want to say "If I had loved him I would not show this (my feelings) to him.
If so; in Turkish you may say "Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) *belli etmezdim*/(*açıklamazdım*). Or 
Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) (ondan) gizlerdim.
Alternately
Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ona *belli etmezdim*/(*açıklamazdım*).
Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ondan gizlerdim.
.
What does "If I loved" translate to?"
It translates to: "(Eğer) sevdi isem (sevdiysem); but not "(Eğer) sevseydim".


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## adventrue

Thanks. Can you make an example sentence with "Sevdi isem"/"sevdiysem", please?!


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## Rallino

shafaq said:


> What does "If I loved" translate to?"
> It translates to: "(Eğer) sevdi isem (sevdiysem); but not "(Eğer) sevseydim".


 
Why do you think it's not "sevseydim" ?

If she loved me, she would call me.

Eğer beni sevseydi, beni arardı.

You see? I've just translated as "sevseydim" 

_To Adventrue_

Sevdiysem is a rare formation and gives the meaning: If I ever love / had _ever _loved .

Hayatında bir kızı sevdiysen, ne düşündüğümü anlarsın.
_If you had ever loved a girl in your life, you would understand what I am thinking._


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## shafaq

Rallino said:


> Why do you think it's not "sevseydim" ?
> 
> [/I]


 Because if "I loved her= Ben onu sevdim"; then "If I loved her = Ben onu sevdi isem". It is my straight logic !
If "If I loved.." translates to " sevseydim "; how we translate "sevdiysem .."
as it was in "Onu *sevdiysem* bu seni ilgilendirmez." ?
Is "sevseydim " interchangeable with "sevdiysem" ?


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## Rallino

No they aren't interchangeable in turkish. But they both mean "If I loved" in english. And you said "it doesn't translate as sevseydim". Well.. it perfectly does.

When I see: "If I loved her, ...."

The first thing I think about is always: Sevseydim. Mainly because "sevseydim" is much more frequently used than "sevdiysem".


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## shafaq

Rallino said:


> No they aren't interchangeable in turkish. *But they both mean "If I loved" in english.* And you said "it doesn't translate as sevseydim". Well.. it perfectly does.


 This is very interesting ! These two expression are 180 degrees opposite in meaning in Turkish and you translate both in same form to English !!!?
Are you sure ?



Rallino said:


> When I see: "If I loved her, ...."
> 
> *The first thing I think about is always: Sevseydim. Mainly because "sevseydim" is much more frequently used than "sevdiysem".*


Well ! I confess that was completely ignorant of this rule.


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## Rallino

How would you translate it to English?

The only way that I can think of is adding "ever": _if I ever loved_. And I've already used that formulation in my previous posts. Do you have any other opinions?


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## shafaq

Rallino said:


> How would you translate it to English?
> 
> The only way that I can think of is adding "ever": *if I ever loved*. And I've already used that formulation in my previous posts. Do you have any other opinions?


Yes ! *This* makes sense !
As you realize; simple past tense *verb*+sey+di/dim/din/diler/diniz/dik formulation in Turkish states that the act of the *verb* never done.
i.e. *Görseydim* söylerdim.=Söylemedim çünki *görmedim*. *If I ever saw *him I should say that (I saw)= *I never saw *him; hence didn't say .
.
In contrary; simple past tense verb+ise/isen/isem/iseler/iseniz/isek formulation states that the act of the *verb* is certainly done in the past.
i.e. *Yaptıysam* yaptım ! Sana ne ! = Evet yaptım ve bu seni ilgilendirmez ! *If I did* it (means) *I did* it ! It is not your job ! 
.
For this reason;  when I see something like "If I loved him ..."; directly translate it as " Onu sevdiysem ...".  Because it doesn't contain any negation to make me translate as rejective as "Sevseydim ...".


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## vatrahos

As you both have said, in English (1) _contrary to fact present_ and (2) _simple past_ conditions are rendered with the same form. There is still a clear difference in meaning, though, shown in the apodosis (the second half of the "if" sentence). Example:


(_contrary to fact__ present conditional_)
"I'm out of cash! If you _gave_ me some money, I *would* buy us some food." 


(_simple past conditional_)

If you _came_ to Athens, then why *didn't* you *tell* me? We could have met up!

[Atina'ya gel-diysen, neden bana haber ver-medin? Buluşabil-irdik!]

Here, the action is not contrary to fact -- it very well may have happened. We differentiate the conditions by means of their apodoses (contrary to fact uses "would" and simple uses normal verb). There's no need to say "ever" -- you can tell the difference simply by looking at the apodosis.


But to get back to Turkish: my impression is that "sev-sey-dim" is _contrary to fact past_. For _contrary to fact present_/_future_, I thought that we use "sev-sem" (a present/future action that is not actually happening and will not happen). Example:


(_contrary to fact past_)

"If you had really loved her, you wouldn't have lied to her" 
"Eğer gerçekten onu sev-seydin, yalan söyle-mezdin"


(_contrary to fact present_)
"If you really loved her, you would stop lying to her" 
Eğer gerçekten onu sev-sen, yalan söylemekten vazgeç-erdin.


"If you came tomorrow, you could meet my friend Fred."
"Eğer yarın gel-sen, arkadaşım Fred'le tanış-ardın"


And, for comparison, a simple future conditional:

"If you come tomorrow, you'll meet my friend Fred."
"Eğer yarın gel-ersin, arkadaşım Fred'le tanış-arsın."


That was my impression, anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong!


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## Rallino

shafaq said:


> Yes ! *This* makes sense !
> As you realize; simple past tense *verb*+sey+di/dim/din/diler/diniz/dik formulation in Turkish states that the act of the *verb* never done.
> i.e. *Görseydim* söylerdim.=Söylemedim çünki *görmedim*. *If I ever saw *him I should say that (I saw)= *I never saw *him; hence didn't say .
> .
> In contrary; simple past tense verb+ise/isen/isem/iseler/iseniz/isek formulation states that the act of the *verb* is certainly done in the past.
> i.e. *Yaptıysam* yaptım ! Sana ne ! = Evet yaptım ve bu seni ilgilendirmez ! *If I did* it (means) *I did* it ! It is not your job !
> .
> For this reason; when I see something like "If I loved him ..."; directly translate it as " Onu sevdiysem ...". Because it doesn't contain any negation to make me translate as rejective as "Sevseydim ...".


 

Go check whatever source you want:

Unreal present: simple past tense + conditional.

If it didn't rain, we could go out.
Şu an eğer yağmasaydı, dışarı çıkabilirdik.

There is no "ever" in these sentences...It states an unreal fact. And actually even YOU have said it.

This following post is yours Shafaq:

_I think you want to say "If I had loved him I would not show this (my feelings) to him._
_If so; in Turkish you may say "Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) belli etmezdim/(açıklamazdım). Or _
_Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) (ondan) gizlerdim._
_*Alternately*_
_*Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ona belli etmezdim/(açıklamazdım).*_
_*Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ondan gizlerdim.*_
_*.*_
_What does "If I loved" translate to?"_
_It translates to: "(Eğer) sevdi isem (sevdiysem); __but not "(Eğer) *sevseydim".*_ 

-------------------------------------------------

See? you said "alternately: sevseydim", and then you say* " but not: sevseydim".* I don't really think you're sure what you're talking about.

Anyway... I'm not going to post an answer in this thread anymore.


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## shafaq

vatrahos said:


> As you both have said, in English (1) _contrary to fact present_ and (2) _simple past_ conditions are rendered with the same form. There is still a clear difference in meaning, though, shown in the apodosis (the second half of the "if" sentence). Example:
> 
> 
> (_contrary to fact__ present conditional_)
> "I'm out of cash! If you _gave_ me some money, I *would* buy us some food."
> 
> 
> (_simple past conditional_)
> 
> If you _came_ to Athens, then why *didn't* you *tell* me? We could have met up!
> 
> [Atina'ya gel-diysen, neden bana haber ver-medin? Buluşabil-irdik!]
> 
> Here, the action is not contrary to fact -- it very well may have happened. We differentiate the conditions by means of their apodoses (contrary to fact uses "would" and simple uses normal verb). There's no need to say "ever" -- you can tell the difference simply by looking at the apodosis.
> 
> 
> But to get back to Turkish: my impression is that "sev-sey-dim" is _contrary to fact past_. For _contrary to fact present_/_future_, I thought that we use "sev-sem" (a present/future action that is not actually happening and will not happen). Example:
> 
> 
> (_contrary to fact past_)
> 
> "If you had really loved her, you wouldn't have lied to her"
> "Eğer gerçekten onu sev-seydin, yalan söyle-mezdin"
> 
> 
> (_contrary to fact present_)
> "If you really loved her, you would stop lying to her"
> Eğer gerçekten onu sev-sen, yalan söylemekten vazgeç-erdin.
> 
> 
> "If you came tomorrow, you could meet my friend Fred."
> "Eğer yarın gel-sen, arkadaşım Fred'le tanış-ardın"
> 
> 
> And, for comparison, a simple future conditional:
> 
> "If you come tomorrow, you'll meet my friend Fred."
> "Eğer yarın gel-ersin, arkadaşım Fred'le tanış-arsın."
> 
> 
> That was my impression, anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong!



First of all; the topic was not for discussing how to translate some thing into English but contrary. My responses to *adventrue* are based on this reality. Even later; I didn't discuss English side of expression directly. First part of my first post to adventrue contains my interpretation on his intention by guessing on it but *not direct understanding*...  (as it can be seen.)
But second part of my post is only my translation of phrase "If I loved"; only "*If I love*d" *without apodosis*.  In which way one does expect I translate it into Turkish?  As I said before; (according Turkish phrasal formulation) 
(IF=eğer) LOVED=sevdi + IF=yse/ise + I=m; sevdiysem (sevdimse). After repeatedly inspecting it; I still can't see any pretext to translate it as "sevseydim" which means contrary of the first "sevdiysem" .
.
As I explained before; in Turkish; "*sevseydim*" clearly (without any apodosis)  has the meaning  "*I didn't love*" (unreal, rejective). Following apodosis doesn't change the fact. And "*sevdiysem*" clearly (without any apodosis)  has the meaning "*I loved*" (confessive) and here also following apodosis doesn't change this fact.
.
So; knowing this; how one can translate "Sevdiysem." and opposite of it "Sevseydim." as "If I loved." 
How "If I loved." means "I reject that I loved." and "I confess that I loved." at the same time? This is what I was I discussing and never suggest any thing to distinguish it in English. But Rallino suggested to use "I ever loved" formulation  and I used it to distinguish between two expression in my given examples. Still to me; it is more sensible than to translate "Sevdiysem." as "If I loved." and "Sevseydim." again as "If I loved." As an alternative; I would use "If I were loved." to render "Sevseydim." into English. Because it(sevseydim) is clearly rejective (unreal) for the act of verb "love". 
.
Also; I doesn't reject your examples as a state of the fact. All of them (may) show the practice. But as a native Turkish; I am thinking in Turkish and to render these two clearly opposite expression in same identical form; makes me thinking that there is a shortage in English at this point. But the fact isn't so. It has sufficent matterial to clearly distinguish between these opposite positions.
.
 In my oppinion; the fact doesn't mean all times the truth.Despite the existence of proper ways; to abstain from using these; means to me a Tarzanish way of  expressing one's self. It looks like "*Şok oldum*." and "*Hayret bişey*." in Turkish. Despite their prevalence; these two expressions are wrong and silly as many others in this manner. Because "Şok oldum." is spoken to say "I had shoked." but in reality it means "I* became shoke*." And other "Hayret bişey." is spoken to say "Strange a thing." but in reality means "*Strangeness(bewilderment) a thing*." How !?  Funny enough ? Yes ! It is Tarzanca(Tarzanish=Tarzan's language) but so prevaled that perhaps nearly no one knows the true form.
.
Adding a point on this; I want to say that some times, a languages may lack proper materials to directly express some things. i.e. Arabic. It lacks one of either simple present tense or continuous present tense. Because it has one unique mudzari form for both. To distinguish between two; one must run oblique ways or rely on spoken party's intuition.
.
 Again; I am clearly expressing that I neither discussed directly English side of equation save "I loved him." nor am asserting that your (and others') given English examples are totally wrong; but saying they may be insufficient to render the intended meaning with these two Turkish expressions. Also what I saying that is; as long as there are proper ways to clearly express what is inteded; I wouldn't deviate to oblique ways. 
They may intuitively be rendered into Turkish as "sevseydim" in an on going dialog or context  (as I did for adventrue) but without apodosis or prior pretext no !
.
Here I am going on adventrue's phrase: "*If I loved him, I did not show it*":
1- Normal form non conditional: I had loved him I didn't show it. Ben onu sev*MİŞTİM* onu göstermedim. This is direct literal translation but so weird and unfamiliar needs a lot of intuition to understand it properly.
2- Conditional form           : If I had loved him I didn't show this to him.(I corrected the second part to ease the understanding.)
*Ben onu sevMİŞTİM ise(m) bunu ona göstermedim*. So weird to be understood.

*Ben onu sevmişti isem bunu ona göstermedim*.  Despite its unusuality; intuitively understandable as "Despite I had loved him; I didn't show this to him." Not rejective(contrary to fact) but contrary to *contrary to fact*.
.
*Ben onu sevmiş oldu isem (de) bunu ona göstermedim*. This is most understandable version (especially after adding ((de)=too, also)) reads as "Despite I had loved him; I didn't show this to him." Still not rejective(contrary to fact) but contrary to *contrary to fact* as above.
To render it as "Onu sevMİŞ olsa idim bunu ona göstermezdim"; one needs so strong intuition and magic to read sayers mind. Because the second part (apodosis) contradicts the the prodosis when saying  "I didn't show it." When you ask "what didn't you show?" You will be replied as " That I had loved him !" Is this a fact *contrary to fact* or it is  *confessive* ? 
.
For this reason; my first post to adventrue begins with "I think you want to say ....  an continues with "If so; ..." skipping a structural discussion for English. Because; in my opinion; that was not the what adventrue has expected.    
.
By the way; I find this discussion very didactive which makes my gray matter shakes its buttocks. So I appreciate and thank all posters and readers  for their efforts both writing and reading. I learned so much that means the world to me. 
As ending; I say; as all mortals; we are fallible... So please don't take these as truths without confering with your mind.


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## shafaq

Rallino said:


> This following post is yours Shafaq:
> 
> _I think you want to say "If I had loved him I would not show this (my feelings) to him._
> _If so; in Turkish you may say "Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) belli etmezdim/(açıklamazdım). Or _
> _Eğer onu sevmiş olsaydım bunu/(sevgimi) (ondan) gizlerdim._
> _*Alternately*_
> _*Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ona belli etmezdim/(açıklamazdım).*_
> _*Eğer onu sevseydim bunu ondan gizlerdim.*_
> _*.*_
> _What does "If I loved" translate to?"_
> _It translates to: "(Eğer) sevdi isem (sevdiysem); __but not "(Eğer) *sevseydim".*_
> 
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> See? you said "alternately: sevseydim", and then you say* " but not: sevseydim".* I don't really think you're sure what you're talking about.


 Yes ! I see! This post is mine as you indicated Rallino ! Please get calm ! And as you see; first part of it doesn't discuss the structure of adventrue's phrase but correcting the apodosis only to make it coherent with what *he intended to say*. And my following phrases are my intuitive perceptions in Turkish abouth his percepted intention. They are not the direct translation of adventrue's phrase. Even if you take it as contrary; after my correction to the apodosis; it may intuitively be rendered as "sevseydim" and far different than only "I loved". So no need to expect that I forgot my post. Still I am saying same thing.




Rallino said:


> Anyway... I'm not going to post an answer in this thread anymore.


Please take it easy ! It is up to you ! By the way; this made me smilingly remembering my childhood ages. At that ages I was easily getting offended when we play.


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