# Ancient Persian: Hind



## lcfatima

Does Hind mean "black" in ancient Persian?


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## Frank06

Hi,


lcfatima said:


> Does Hind mean "black" in ancient Persian?


I am not sure if you mean Old Persian (of the Achaemenid era) , but I had a look at Kent's _Old Persian. Grammar, Texts, Lexicon_.

I could only find following entry in the lexicon:


> Hindu- 'Sind', a province of the Persian Empire, on the upper Indus River. [...] Avestan _hindu-_, Sanskrit _síndhu- _'stream, the Indus country around the Indus'.


It doesn't mention anything about 'black'.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Faylasoof

Fatima, I assume you mean the language spoken during the Achaemenid (Hakhamaneshiyan هخامنشیان) times?

I think not. As far as I recall, in Ancient Iran <hind> represented the river and area around the river Indus and an Avestan cognate for the Sanskrit word <sindhu = river esp. the Indus>. See here. Search the Cologne Sanskrit Dictionary. Just type _sindh_ (_sindhu_ gives you related terms) in the box for English terms. 

Eventually we got Hind (Perisan) al-Hind (Arabic) as the name for the whole of India. The river Indus is a derivation of the same origin and a reference can be found in Ancient Greek – in the work of Arrian(_Ἀ__ρριανός_) called _Anabasis Alexandri_ (the _Campaigns of Alexander_).

… and in Pahlavi: India = Hinduugaan / Hindoogaan and Indian = Hinduug / Hindoog

PS: I just noticed that Frank has also replied, and we are in agreement on this!


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## lcfatima

Yes I am aware of the Hind, Sindh, Indus connections. I was just curious because I came across an article here in which a colonial era writer asserts:



> This word Hindostan means “black place,” for in the Persian language “hind” is ” black,” and “stan” is “place.” You may guess, therefore, that the people in Hindostan are very dark; yet they are not quite black, and some of the ladies are only of a light brown complexion.


 
So I was just checking the veracity of her assertion. The poster of the article notes that the original writer makes many errors. I was curious about that one. Hind-Sindh-Ind as a place name is one thing, but I wonder if that also has some underlying meaning.


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## Faylasoof

lcfatima said:


> ...So I was just checking the veracity of her assertion. The poster of the article notes that the original writer makes many errors. I was curious about that one. Hind-Sindh-Ind as a place name is one thing, but I wonder if that also has some underlying meaning.


 One can but agree with the poster of the article. Highly erroneous, I must say. The one underlying meaning I sensed was the lack of knowledge of the writer.


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## macgupta

Nagendranath Gupta, in "Why India Lives", 1952, writes:



> The word Hind is a Persian word, meaning black. It occurs in a famous poem of Hafiz, in which the poet offers to make a gift of the cities of Samarkand and Bokhara for the sake of a black mote on the skin of a youth of Shiraz.  These are the well-known lines:
> _Agar an Toork Shirazi
> badastarad, dile mara,
> Bakhale hindyush buksham
> Samarkando Bokhara ra._​The real name of the Hindukush Mountains is Hind Koh, the black mountain, _hind_ meaning black, and _koh_, a mountain.



Any comments on the above?
Thanks!
-Arun


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## Qureshpor

macgupta said:


> Nagendranath Gupta, in "Why India Lives", 1952, writes:
> 
> Any comments on the above?
> Thanks!
> -Arun



Arun SaaHib, as for "Hindu-kush" opinions are divided. One source states that it could be a corruption of "Caucasus Indicus".

Now coming to the famous Hafiz quote.

agar aaN Turk-i-Shiiraazii ba-dast aarad dil-i-maa-raa
ba-Khaal-i-Hindu-ash baKhsham Samarqand-o-BuKhaaraa-raa

If that Shiiraazii Turk* were to accept my love for her
Just for her "Hindu" mole, I would give away Samarqand and Bukhara

*Now, even by Iranian standards, Turks were fairer in complexion than them. The beloved from Shiiraaz was one such "Snow-white" beauty.

Her skin colour is than being contrasted with her "Hindu" mole. One could interpret this as being connected to a "bindi" traditionally forming a part of a Hindu woman's "solah siNghaar" and this "spot" is indeed black. So, the word Hindu in itself does not mean "black" but by only association and extension.

Hafiz was a great admirer of his predecessor "Khvaajuu" who excelled in the art of Ghazal writing. Here is a line from Khvaaju which should go a long way in supporting my point.

aan Khaal-i-siyaah, Hindu-aasaa

That black mole, resembling a Hindu[woman's spot].

Even if the "bindi" explanation is totally off the mark, then one could say that for the Persians, "Hindus" (or in other words "Indians") possessed a darker skin colour. The mole is being given extra contrast against the fair skin by comparing it with the darker skin colour of the Indians.

In summary, the word Hind is derived from the river Sindhu and Hindu, byitself, does not mean dark or balck but only in certain poetic contexts. I do not believe you will find objects being described as "Hindu" in Persian speech or prose in place of the word "siyaah" (shyaam?)


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## macgupta

Qureshpor,

Thanks!  So much for Mr. N. Gupta.

-Arun


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## rahulbemba

macgupta said:


> Nagendranath Gupta, in "Why India Lives", 1952, writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Any comments on the above?
> Thanks!
> -Arun



You need to provide some reference. I searched much on google and yet the only webpage which mentions anything like this, is this one on word-forum. So far I have not heard any evidence of what you say. Google books has this book, but these sentences are not there. 

All historians and researchers have kept the origin of word "Hind" from the name of river "Sindhu" or "Indus"... 

Please provide reference, any sort of evidence, otherwise this webpage may be providing a wrong information to all and would be vulnerable to moderation in my opinion.

Also, I think Qureshpor has done a very good analysis.


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## Faylasoof

macgupta said:


> Nagendranath Gupta, in "Why India Lives", 1952, writes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The word Hind is a Persian word, meaning black. It occurs in a famous poem of Hafiz, in which the poet offers to make a gift of the cities of Samarkand and Bokhara for the sake of a black mote on the skin of a youth of Shiraz. These are the well-known lines:
> _Agar an Toork Shirazi
> badastarad, dile mara,
> Bakhale hindyush buksham
> Samarkando Bokhara ra._
> The real name of the Hindukush Mountains is Hind Koh, the black mountain, _hind_ meaning black, and _koh_, a mountain.
> 
> 
> 
> Any comments on the above?
> Thanks!
> -Arun
Click to expand...

Just to add to what I mentioned above, the word “_hind_” in Ancient Iran meant the river Indus and the area surrounding it:



Faylasoof said:


> Fatima, I assume you mean the language spoken during the Achaemenid (Hakhamaneshiyan هخامنشیان) times?
> 
> _I think not. As far as I recall, in Ancient Iran <hind> represented the river and area around the river Indus and an Avestan cognate for the Sanskrit word <sindhu = river esp. the Indus>._ See here. Search the Cologne Sanskrit Dictionary. Just type _sindh_ (_sindhu_ gives you related terms) in the box for English terms.
> 
> Eventually we got Hind (Perisan) al-Hind (Arabic) as the name for the whole of India. The river Indus is a derivation of the same origin and a reference can be found in Ancient Greek – in the work of Arrian(_Ἀ__ρριανός_) called _Anabasis Alexandri_ (the _Campaigns of Alexander_).
> 
> … and in Pahlavi: _India = Hinduugaan / Hindoogaan and Indian = Hinduug / Hindoog_
> ….


 
Avestan is one of the oldest Iranian languages, and also one with copious literature. So it is a good one to look at as well. 

Peterson’s Avestan dictionary that I have also mentions hind = Indus river. Fortunately, it is now online:

hiñdu [-] m. Indus river 


So the idea that _hind_ means black is not correct. 

The Avestan word for dark / black is: sâmahe [sâma] / shyaava. 

We can compare this with the Pahlavi (Middle Persian) words for India / Indian (highlighted above) and the Pahlavi words for dark / black (below):  

dark = _taariig/k_, _tiirag_ ( = _taariik_ / _tiirah_ in New / Modern Persian and Urdu).
black = _shyaa/k_ ( = _siyaah_ in  New / Modern Persian and Urdu).

Hafiz’s famous lines (arguably the most famous lines in Classical Persian poetry) have been variously translated into English. 
QP Saahib has already given an explanation - the contrast between the fair skin of the Turkish beloved and her dark mole. This is what the poet is expressing with the use of the term _xaal-e-hinduwash_ = the (dark) Indian mole – we South Asian tend to be darker skinned (more melanin), so also have darker moles as well!

But recognised translators seem to always skip the _hinduwash_ part, i.e. they don’t make any mention of the word _Indian_ which is what _hinduwash_ means. Some translate the term _xaal-e-hinduwash _as _the dark mole_. But that is by implication:

_If the Bold One of Shiraz gain our heart_
_For her dark mole, I’ll give Samarqand and Bukhara_
(Translation by Henry Wilberforce Clarke)

Others simply ignore even the idea of _dark_:

_For a mole on the cheek of my darling_
_Which the breezes of Shiraz have fanned_
_I would gladly surrender Bukhara_
_Or give back to its Khan Samarqand_
(Translation by John Charles Edward Boden)


The idea of the dark mole as a sign of beauty also took hold in Europe when fair skinned European ladies and gentlemen in esp. in the 18th century would “wear” black moles on their face.


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## NJohn

macgupta said:


> Nagendranath Gupta, in "Why India Lives", 1952, writes:
> I grove up in Kashmir and most old people spoke persian as that use to be official language long long time ago. I remember people always discussing that persians use to use term Hindi for us as they considered us black (ugly).
> 
> 
> Any comments on the above?
> Thanks!
> -Arun


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## Qureshpor

^ I would suggest "Hindi" meant nothing more than "Indian". Besides, I believe the natives of Kashmir are fair skinned anyway.


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## NJohn

Qureshpor said:


> ^ I would suggest "Hindi" meant nothing more than "Indian". Besides, I believe the natives of Kashmir are fair skinned anyway.


India never existed when Hafez wrote famous poem where he says "Black mole on face". It doesn't make any sense at all say "Indian mole on face".
Kashmiri people are much darker than Pharsi people. There is good percentage of kashmir people who are fair skinned but they are also those who have Immigrated from Central Asia to Kashmir.


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## Qureshpor

^ I believe India (Hind) has been in existence much longer than Hafiz! No one has suggested "Indian mole". He has not used the word "Hindi" but "Hindu" which I believe is symbolic. He is contrasting the fair cheeks of his beloved with her dark mole. I have met many Iranians who are pretty dark too.


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## Treaty

In the times of slavery, the slaves would have been classified with  their skin colours. Generally, there were two routes for importing dark coloured  slaves: via India and Africa. So, In early Islamic era, the Indian dark-coloured slaves were  called _hindu_ and the Africans were _zangi_. This terms became popular for a while and any less African-like dark-coloured slave was also called _hindu_ (it was contrasted with _deylam_, a white [Turk] slave). But this terminology didn't extend beyond slavery and only used for a short time.

But the usage in Hafez poem is unrelated to that term. I guess _hindu_ literally means Hindu or Indian. There is no symbolism or metaphor. The mole-like "make-up" (also called _xāl_ خال) between the eyebrows or on the forehead of Hindu/Indian (women), has been always admired and imitated by Iranian people.



NJohn said:


> India never existed when Hafez wrote famous poem where he says "Black mole on face". It doesn't make any sense at all say "Indian mole on face".



The name India (in Iranian languages) for Indus river and beyond is at least 2000 years older than Hafez, attested in both Old Persian (Achaemenid) and Avestan sources.


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## NJohn

lcfatima said:


> Does Hind mean "black" in ancient Persian?


Now I nailed it down 
Here is the link of Persian dictionary of word Hindu. (I'm not allowed to add links as I am new member so I am breaking the link) vajehyab .com/moein/هندو
In this link there are 5 different meaning of word Hindu 1, Someone who is Hindu (religion or location). 2, Black coloured. 3, Slave. 4, watchman (watchdog). 5, Skin (colour) Hair (colour) Kafir (unbeliever) Kufr (unbelief) Thief.


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## Qureshpor

^ Whatever "Hindu" may or may not mean, the thread is about "Hind" and "Hind" does not mean "black".


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## fdb

NJohn said:


> Now I nailed it down
> Here is the link of Persian dictionary of word Hindu. (I'm not allowed to add links as I am new member so I am breaking the link) vajehyab .com/moein/هندو
> In this link there are 5 different meaning of word Hindu 1, Someone who is Hindu (religion or location). 2, Black coloured. 3, Slave. 4, watchman (watchdog). 5, Skin (colour) Hair (colour) Kafir (unbeliever) Kufr (unbelief) Thief.



One of the problems with traditional Persian dictionaries (and this includes the dreadful Steingass) is that they do not distinguish between the core meanings of words and their figurative usage in poetry and ornate prose. As others have pointed out, Hind means “India, Indian, Indians”. Everything else is metaphor.


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