# Pike/Piker/Pikey - In Irish context



## James Brandon

I know the various mainstream meanings of "pike"; I also know that "pikey" can be a synonym for "gypsy" (offensive and colloquial, British English).

I have also heard "pike" (or possibly "piker") when referring to gypsies and/or 'travellers' in Ireland. Can you confirm that this term exists and is used; what its exact spelling is; and finally what its exact meaning is, and perhaps even its origin.

I am referring to the Irish context, but I know "pike" can have a range of - often derogatory - meanings in Australian/NZ English, and in American English.

Thanks


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## swyves

I first picked up the word "pikey" from the film Snatch -- did you catch that one?


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## James Brandon

I rather remember coming across "piker" about Irish gypsies in a US film starring Brad Pitt, I think!


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## foxfirebrand

See this etymology about _piker_ in American English. The word is in very common use, a "benign" insult used by friends or members of a small community, to correct the niggardly behavior of one of their own.

"Aw come on, don't be such a piker."

"Hey come on, the rest of us left tips.  D'you think we would've brought you along if we knew you were such a piker?"

In the second sentence the underlying jocularity would have to be conveyed by tone-- it's understood that the person being addressed will conform to the group behavior under such pressure, and is not literally in such dire danger of being excluded.
.


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## panjandrum

Sorry, I'm completely blank on pike, piker, pikey.


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## maxiogee

A *pikey* is the Irish equivalent of chav - but I don't think the term is an original creation of this bejewelled island.
Lads in trainers, tracksuit bottoms, hooced sweatshirt, and a jacket over that - hanging around in groups and up to no good!
*Skanger* is a synonym.


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## sarcie

I've never heard "Pikey" or anything similar used in Ireland - have heard skanger, knacker, scumbag, but I would never advise anyone to use them!

"Pikey" is an English word for me - I've definitely heard it as a synonym of "chav" and also in the sense of tight with money.


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## James Brandon

I am surprised that "piker" or "pikey" has no specific meaning in Ireland and would be identified as an English word (which "pikey", as a probably old-fashioned and definitely derogatory term for "gypsy" certainly is all the same). What I mean is that, in the context that I heard it, it very clearly referred to "gypsies" or "travellers" in Ireland - a derogatory term that seemed commonly used and understood, from the context. What Irish contributors say is that it is not the case at all...

On the other hand, the etymology referred to by Foxfirebrand is as follows (extract from webpage): "Piker 'vagrant, tramp, gypsy', 1838, but Barnhart and others say the Amer.Eng. word ultimately is a reference to people from Pike County, Missouri." According to that etymology, there is a clear link between the term "piker" and the idea of a "gypsy" - at least in the original English context (and Sussex is mentioned). 

So, my tentative conclusion is that the term is English in origin (piker) and indeed a colloquial and insulting synonym for "gypsy", even though an alternative American etymology is suggested. This would be because a "piker" is someone who spends a lot of time walking along "a turnpike", i.e. a highway (hence the idea of "vagrant", hence the idea of "gypsy"). It would appear that the term got a new lease of life in America. 

I can't explain why it would not be known in that sense in Ireland, I must say.


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## GavinCorder

It's not Irish it's romany -* pikey* - means a Gypsy expelled from tribe, hence it is offensive. Now used to describe all kinds of travellers and tinkers who are sometimes of Irish ethnicity, certainly no longer confined to true ethnic Gypsies. Nowadays 'vulgar' people who are not even travellers are called pikey as an insult. It is often interchangable with chav.


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## Paulfromitaly

maxiogee said:
			
		

> A *pikey* is the Irish equivalent of chav - but I don't think the term is an original creation of this bejewelled island.
> Lads in trainers, tracksuit bottoms, hooced sweatshirt, and a jacket over that - hanging around in groups and up to no good!
> *Skanger* is a synonym.



What's a *hooced* sweatshirt?


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## GavinCorder

He meant hooded sweatshirt. Also called a hoodie. Uniform of young male chavs and malcontents in Britain.


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## James Brandon

The idea that "pikey" is not an English word but a term of romany origin is not mentioned anywhere that I have seen - etymologies suggested are either English (turnpike - pike - piker/pikey) or American (name of county in USA). 

Your comments, Gavin, do suggest that you feel the word would be known and used in Ireland, but this is not what Irish contributors have said.

Finally, I know several people have equated "pikey" with "chav" - I find that a bit strange, but I suppose there could be an overlap in (derogatory) meaning.


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## GavinCorder

I have now hopefully been busy enough to qualify for posting URL privileges.

So.

Romany provenance cited here: http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/rumney.htm

Link referenced here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/voices/language.shtml

This reference cites both chav and pikey with Romany origins:
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache...-cha2.htm+chav+pikey&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2


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## GavinCorder

Blimey, hope I haven't choked the other threads with drivel just to earn the right to back up my posts with references!


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## James Brandon

Gavin,

I have read all the web pages you suggest and have found, with surprise, that 'chav' would be of romany origin - the etymology I had heard was 'Cheltenham average'. Supposedly, a term used by public-school, middle-class girls (in private education, that is) when referring to local West Country girls going to state schools. But this could be a reconstructed origin of the term. 

But, regarding "pikey", World Wide Words says: "Yet another is the deeply insulting _*pikey*_, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from _turnpike_, so a person who travels the roads." In this particular case, the term would be Kentish in origin (i.e. the local dialect of the southern English county of Kent). In other words, it would indeed be an English word that may have been adopted by Romany-speakers... It would not be a Romany word originally. The derogatory meaning attached to "pikey" in Romany could be linked to the fact that the word was initially used in offensive manner towards gypsies by non-gypsies - psychologically and linguistically, this may make sense.


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## GavinCorder

James Brandon said:
			
		

> Gavin,
> 
> I have read all the web pages you suggest and have found, with surprise, that 'chav' would be of romany origin - the etymology I had heard was 'Cheltenham average'. Supposedly, a term used by public-school, middle-class girls (in private education, that is) when referring to local West Country girls going to state schools. But this could be a reconstructed origin of the term.
> 
> But, regarding "pikey", World Wide Words says: "Yet another is the deeply insulting _*pikey*_, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from _turnpike_, so a person who travels the roads." In this particular case, the term would be Kentish in origin (i.e. the local dialect of the southern English county of Kent). In other words, it would indeed be an English word that may have been adopted by Romany-speakers... It would not be a Romany word originally. The derogatory meaning attached to "pikey" in Romany could be linked to the fact that the word was initially used in offensive manner towards gypsies by non-gypsies - psychologically and linguistically, this may make sense.



Sometimes chav is given as Chatham average due to the Essex/ Kent Romany influence, (Cheltenham would be a very late contender for the term). Occasionally also Council Housed and Violent. No chavi, child, in romany would be my best bet for derivation. 

But pikey certainly came out of the romany gypsy community first as a derogatory term which was then adopted by settled population.


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## James Brandon

And what I have found in the Oxford Reference Dictionary, which confirms the English origin of "pikey". As follows:-

*Pike* - spelt with capital 'p'. American word (from late 19th C.), to refer to a poor white, particularly one who is on the road, moving from the East to California and the W Coast. The term would come from the name of a given county in Missouri. It would be an insulting term used by Americans on the W Coast when referring to those poor newcomers - whether unconscious etymology was at work here or not (English 'piker' => American 'Pike').

*Piker* - originally, in English, a petty thief (14th C.). At a later stage, used to refer to a vagrant, tramp or gypsy (from 1838, British English). The origin of the word would be "someone spending much time on the (turn)pike". This is the word I originally came across that referred to gypsies. 

In Australian English, "piker" can mean..."a wild ox living in the bush" (first mention, 1887) - still the idea of wandering around away from home. 

*Pikey* - Same meaning as tramp or gypsy (piker). Derogatory and colloquial.

*Piky* - Variation on "pikey" spelling and same meaning. Same usage. 

It should be noted that the meaning of "piker" as someone who is stingy or mean (N American English, Australian and NZ English) actually derives, apparently, from the original meaning quoted in the Oxford Concise Dictionary, i.e. "a gambler who makes only small bets" and is despised for being over-cautious (19th C and derived from "to pike", "to go back on or withdraw from a commitment etc.", Australian/NZ usage). So this meaning appears to be Antipodean in origin...

I am still surprised "piker" would be unkwnown in Ireland...


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## James Brandon

Gavin,

If you read closely the etymology suggested by Word Wide Web, as I understand it, "pikey" was English in origin and presumably adopted by Gypsies, not the other way round - that's at any rate how I read it.


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## GavinCorder

Possiby it might have meant that once they had gone legit, i.e. on the toll (or turnpike roads not just in the woods, once  expelled). Same as kennas (kenniks) - I don't know how to spell them but used by Romanies that I know, for gypsies gone settled (thus lapsed from the way of the road - thus gone bad) I believe kenna means house (or an insulting term for a gypsy who now lives in a house).

Certainly pikey originated withn the travelling community as an insult to those who had 'lost their way'....


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## James Brandon

In effect, for "piker"/"pikey", there would be 2 separate meanings - one within the community (a bad gypsy) and one without (any gypsy). This is not uncommon at all, by the way. Having said all this, I am just relying on what you have said and what I have read - I do not know any Romany-speakers and have no specialist knowledge at all in that field.


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## englishman

James Brandon said:
			
		

> Gavin,
> 
> But, regarding "pikey", World Wide Words says: "Yet another is the deeply insulting _*pikey*_, presumably from the Kentish dialect term for gypsy that was borrowed from _turnpike_, so a person who travels the roads." In this particular case, the term would be Kentish in origin (i.e. the local dialect of the southern English county of Kent). In other words, it would indeed be an English word that may have been adopted by Romany-speakers... It would not be a Romany word originally. The derogatory meaning attached to "pikey" in Romany could be linked to the fact that the word was initially used in offensive manner towards gypsies by non-gypsies - psychologically and linguistically, this may make sense.


I first encountered "pikey" in my youth in Kent, used by local (but well-off) boys to refer to gypsies (I wasn't a local). I had the impression that it was a local term - it's only in recent years that I've heard it used more widely.

The local kids also used the term "charver" (or "chava" maybe ?) to refer to anyone considered as low-lifes, and with the emergence of the term "chav" I've often wondered if this word was its origin (or cognate - maybe people used "chav" elsewhere)


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## GavinCorder

Yes. I suppose that's what I'm saying...


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## foxfirebrand

James Brandon said:
			
		

> It would appear that the term got a new lease of life in America.


 Just to be clear, _piker_ to my knowledge has *nothing* to do with gypsies in AE. And I haven't heard it used in reference to other types of vagabonds or travelers (we do have the specific Irish use of "Travelers," by the way, but it's very regional).

It means a cheapskate, especially a cautious and stinting gambler-- not an "action" player but someone who sits like a rock waiting for a good hand, then doesn't have the mother wit to cash in on it.

In San Francisco a distinction was made between two groups who were rushing to California in great numbers-- those who came by ship, who headed straight for the gold fields, often abandoning a perfectly good ship entirely, and those who came by wagon.

This latter group tended to include women and families, indeed large groups of interrelated families since there was safety in social cohesion as well as numbers, in the dangerous overland trek. These more conservative types tended to discourage early when it came to scrambling for claims and defending them, but they saw a rich opportunity to cash in on the great outflow of wealth, as merchants and suppliers of services.

The gamblers valued goldpanners and had an uneasy and mutually-derogatory relationship with the settlers, the "pikers." The etymology about Pike co. MO is news to me, but a lot of wagon trains traveled along the central route through the Rockies and Sierras, and Pike's Peak in Colorado was a major landmark for people crossing the plains. Indeed later settlers and gold-seekers rushing to Colorado some years after the strikes in California typically painted "Pike's Peak or Bust" on their Conestoga wagons.

When I lived in Colorado (1956-57) I learned that this motto was the origin of the term _piker_, and since the Colorado rush took place at a time when photography was increasingly common, these "Pike's Peak or bust" photos were common currency in journalistic treatment of the more recent gold rush.

Many a miner went to Colorado on horseback, with nothing but a bedroll and a pair of saddlebags. Gamblers who went there specifically to "work" the scene of course had the high-style option of taking the train-- not an option in 49. So "piker" in the wider sense, as the word came into use outside gambling, there was a different kind of line between frugality and big-spending-- and it was reflected in the difference between wagon and train travel.

We did have turnpikes, and the word was the default term for roads built as a commercial venture-- in other words they involved tolls, and that to me would seem to work against any association in AE between turnpike travelers and vagrants.

On the other hand a down-and-outer is someone who often has to "head down the pike." Or "further on down the pike." So there's some association of the highway term with the concept of "kicking around" the country, sometimes at the suggestion of the Law.
.


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## jaq

GavinCorder said:
			
		

> No chavi, child, in romany would be my best bet for derivation.


Mine too. The Spanish word "chaval", which, according to the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy, comes from the Spanish gypsy language "caló", also means boy/child/lad, etc,.

In my experience, only people from Southern England (and maybe the Midlands) use "pikey" with the meaning of "chav". I don't think I've ever heard a fellow Northerner use it.


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## GavinCorder

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, _piker_ to my knowledge has *nothing* to do with gypsies in AE. And I haven't heard it used in reference to other types of vagabonds or travelers (we do have the specific Irish use of "Travelers," by the way, but it's very regional).
> 
> It means a cheapskate, especially a cautious and stinting gambler-- not an "action" player but someone who sits like a rock waiting for a good hand, then doesn't have the mother wit to cash in on it.
> 
> In San Francisco a distinction was made between two groups who were rushing to California in great numbers-- those who came by ship, who headed straight for the gold fields, often abandoning a perfectly good ship entirely, and those who came by wagon.
> 
> This latter group tended to include women and families, indeed large groups of interrelated families since there was safety in social cohesion as well as numbers, in the dangerous overland trek. These more conservative types tended to discourage early when it came to scrambling for claims and defending them, but they saw a rich opportunity to cash in on the great outflow of wealth, as merchants and suppliers of services.
> 
> The gamblers valued goldpanners and had an uneasy and mutually-derogatory relationship with the settlers, the "pikers." The etymology about Pike co. MO is news to me, but a lot of wagon trains traveled along the central route through the Rockies and Sierras, and Pike's Peak in Colorado was a major landmark for people crossing the plains. Indeed later settlers and gold-seekers rushing to Colorado some years after the strikes in California typically painted "Pike's Peak or Bust" on their Conestoga wagons.
> 
> When I lived in Colorado (1956-57) I learned that this motto was the origin of the term _piker_, and since the Colorado rush took place at a time when photography was increasingly common, these "Pike's Peak or bust" photos were common currency in journalistic treatment of the more recent gold rush.
> 
> Many a miner went to Colorado on horseback, with nothing but a bedroll and a pair of saddlebags. Gamblers who went there specifically to "work" the scene of course had the high-style option of taking the train-- not an option in 49. So "piker" in the wider sense, as the word came into use outside gambling, there was a different kind of line between frugality and big-spending-- and it was reflected in the difference between wagon and train travel.
> 
> We did have turnpikes, and the word was the default term for roads built as a commercial venture-- in other words they involved tolls, and that to me would seem to work against any association in AE between turnpike travelers and vagrants.
> 
> On the other hand a down-and-outer is someone who often has to "head down the pike." Or "further on down the pike." So there's some association of the highway term with the concept of "kicking around" the country, sometimes at the suggestion of the Law.
> .


I wouldn't have thought so until James Brandon interpreted my ramblings so well today here. 

I spent some years in Australia as a child where I understood a piker to be one who reneges or welshes on a deal. I never knew of a pikey until the 1990s in England, where I learnt it from the travelling community.


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## GavinCorder

jaq said:
			
		

> Mine too. The Spanish word "chaval", which, according to the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy, comes from the Spanish gypsy language "caló", also means boy/child/lad, etc,.
> 
> In my experience, only people from Southern England (and maybe the Midlands) use "pikey" with the meaning of "chav". I don't think I've ever heard a fellow Northerner use it.


Although it comes from the south, they did use in the North East before North West. I'd say it was universal in England today.


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## jaq

I live in the North West and I've never heard anyone say it here (ever)... in fact, it's one of those words that sounds very "southern" to me, but if they use it the North East, as you say, then it seems its usage is more widespread than I thought.


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## GavinCorder

jaq said:
			
		

> I live in the North West and I've never heard anyone say it here (ever)... in fact, it's one of those words that sounds very "southern" to me, but if they use it the North East, as you say, then it seems its usage is more widespread than I thought.


Two years ago I 'taught' the term to my (north western) in-laws! But chav then became the word of the year, and pikey was coupled with it - (was that The Times or the Guardian? Can't remember). I think anyone not familiar with either term in England by must have been in hibernation for about 30 moon (as they say in the prison fraternity)!


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## jaq

You're right... it's funny how these previously largely unknown words have become part of mainstream vocabulary in such a short period of time.

(By the way, I like your signature ).


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## panjandrum

The OED added chav recently - in June this year.

It gives the etymology as Romani. It mentions the possibility of Chatham variants, but suggests they are a later rationalisation.

Chavvy as Angloromani for a baby, a child, has been around for much longer.


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## GavinCorder

Right Panjandrum, does your archive give you any movement on pikey? I'm no longer based at the university so I have no automatic login to the full OED. Actually they were glad of my contribution to 'pass the parcel'!


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## James Brandon

The original query was about "pike", "piker" and "pikey" and, in the process, we have established beyond doubt, it seems to me, that..."chav" is of Romany origin (and I like the link to the Spanish "chaval"). But I am not sure at all that we have established that the origin of "pikey" is Romany - in fact, the contributor who lived in Kent at one stage, when younger, stresses that the term was used by non-gypsies when talking about gypsies.

As for "pike" and derivatives in the USA, it appears to be more of a _parallel_ linguistic strand, so to speak, rather than one actually _derived_ from the English "piker" or "pikey", if I go by Foxfirebrand's explanation. (A "pike" can of course be a "peak", also in England, so this meaning is not surprising in the context of the Western US.) 

Finally, could it be that, in Ireland, the use of "pikey" for a gypsy, in England, would be reflected in the use of "tinker" in Ireland, or is this an irrelevant parallel that I am drawing?


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## panjandrum

I'm repeating some of what's been said already, but here is a summary of a meandering through the OED.

A *Pike* (noun) is a vagrant, petty criminal, good-for-nothing.
Alleged to be from Pike County, whence such people came to California.
From c1850 - US.

A _*Piker*_ is more or less the same - same etymology.

A _*piker*_ is a small-time gambler who places small, cautious bets. Hence a mean or cowardly person. Etymology - from the verb, pike (US) to gamble cautiously in small amounts.

A *pikey* is English, but with almost the same meaning as Pike or Piker. The etymology is rather different, apparently relating to the turnpike, or pike, - the road along which the vagrant pikeys would travel. Pike in this sense would have been current at the time pikey first appeared: 
First example is from 1838 - pikey-men.

This is not a great deal of help, apart from suggesting that this term may have developed at around the same time on either side of the Atlantic, but with different origins.


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## James Brandon

Panj,

Would you say that the colloquial use of "tinker" in the Irish context, for "travellers", is basically the equivalent of the use of "pikey" in the English context, when referring to gypsies, in a manner that is both colloquial and offensive? 

I know the Thread is about "pike, etc.", but the parallel with the word "tinker" seems relevant to me. Also, is "tinker" in Ireland used to refer to gypsies, insofar as there are any in Ireland? (I mean, by that, not people who may merely have 'chosen' a semi-nomadic lifestyle, but who would be of Romany origin, to one extent or other.)


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## maxiogee

It is said that the Travelling People in Ireland have no connections with the Romany people.
The Travelling People in Ireland used to be referfred to as Gypsies (from Egyptian) and as Tinkers (from tinsmith).
These terms died out of everyday speech many years ago.
Prior to their dying out they were considered offensive by the Travelling People, but not used offensively by all who used it. When the re-education of the settled community was undertaken to popularise the expression Travelling People many older Irish people didn't see the problem.

I doubt that the average young Irish person would hear the word used once in a decade, if ever.


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## Sallyb36

I've never heard pikey, pike used to refer to people.
a pike is a fish.


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## GavinCorder

No 

"It is said that the Travelling People in Ireland have no connections with the Romany people." That's the problem.

The political mess in this country has arisen over the racist call, over human rights. A subject for another forum, methinks.

Sally dear, if you have never heard of a pikey, a term in mainstream use, I suggest you fish in less fast flowing waters!


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## foxfirebrand

GavinCorder said:
			
		

> Sally dear, if you have never heard of a pikey, a term in mainstream use, I suggest you fish in less fast flowing waters!


 Uhh...I've never heard of "pikey" and I've been around-- I've only addressed the term "piker" here. I doubt if the average American has heard it either, unless there's some new britcom on BBCA about pikeys and I haven't checked it out yet. I also learned about chavs on this forum for the first time.  I do know about Travelers and Scugnizzi, among other groups "of no prestige."  

And pike are to be found in very slow waters, lurking in ambush in the vegetative growth.  
.


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## James Brandon

I think the consensus has been, here, that "_pikey_" is a British term, not an American one, and that it relates to Southern England, not Northern England (more particularly to Kent) - so remarks made below would appear logical and coherent. But a _pike_ is certainly _not_ only a fish, as the Thread has amply demonstrated.

As for _tinker_, if I understand what is said, it refers to semi-nomadic native Irish people who are _not_ of Romany origin (and that was what I believed to be the case). Also, as I understand, the term is not commonly used today and is considered both derogatory and old-fashioned, or even archaic. As I understand, a little clean-up inspired by _political correctness_ has led to the "re-education" of the settled masses to the effect that a _tinker_ ought to be called "a member of the _travelling people_" - singular, presumably, "a _traveller_". [Re-education does sound a bit Maoist, but it's all in a good cause, no doubt...]


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## winklepicker

Apologies for resuscitating this thread, but my recent post under 'chav' probably more properly belongs here.

"Pikeys are properly Romanies who have been cast out by their tribe. See this vocabulary list and this Romany chat forum where you can see Romany language in modern use. Non-Romany gypsies are didikoi.

Kushti bokt."

The links I have given above are Kentish Romany sources. I was at primary school with some Romany children, and I'm sad to say that they were picked on very cruelly. Romanies were very much part of the local community; they did hop-picking and seasonal agricultural labour, and a fair deal of their language was incorporated into Kentish dialect.


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## James Brandon

This is interesting. I wonder why there would be such a strong link between the county of Kent in England and Romany culture in the UK. Would it merely be because Romany immigrants would originally have landed in Kent from the Continent, and settled there? 

Merry Xmas, by the way.


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## englishman

Though this thread is long dead, I thought that this:

http://kent.greatbritishlife.co.uk/article/voices-of-kent-16852/

may be of interest to anyone who was originally involved, in particular the following comment:

-And it’s not just the accent that is in decline. According to Mike  McDonnell, Kent once has its own lexicon,
-an array of words -that were  common but are now either no longer in usage or used and understood by  only a few.
-“Like the accent, there were different words from different places.  People from the marshes often had different 
-names for something than  those coming from Thanet. But there were lots of words that were common  across the county.
-“We had words like ‘chavy’, which meant young child, or ‘starters’, which were little rabbits.


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## James Brandon

Thanks. The article on the kind of English spoken in Kent is very interesting and remarkably detailed, but it does not seem to mention any Romany connection, which had been put forward -- no doubt with good reasons -- in Post No.40.

However, there does appear to be a definite link between Romany communities and the county of Kent, due to the need for seasonal labour in farming. But no reference that I can see to the term 'pike' and related. 

I quote: 

_In previous times it was the Gypsy Travellers who provided much of this  workforce, moving from farm to farm throughout the summer picking cherries, strawberries, blackcurrants, peas and beans. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/voices/hartlake/hop_picking.shtml
_


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## Tim 8 8

Hello gentle people,
I found your discussion of piker to be interest as I was searching for a derivation of tanner and then it morphed into tinker to describe an Irishman of low opinion considered by another Irishman as a polite insult of someone's hereditary and subsequent upbringing and it was likened to being called a horse thief , to be referred to as a tinker or tanner.  This was told to me by my father upon his return from visiting his home county Clare in Ireland in 1988.
This is reflective of gypsy as some of the trades delt with smithing work and sale of pots. Likewise they needed a good horse to pull their caravan - wagon. Lastly the Romany came from India and traveled to Ireland. I read a true story of an Irish gypsy discovering his roots as he went back through Europe and Central Asia to India. Truly a fascinating read.
I felt compelled to write up a word having read the other 43 responses. Piker was used by my grandfather clear up into the 1980s to describe a cheap, slip shod, welching on a wager, quasi bandit, opportunist vagrant type. His cure for a piker was to move them down the road or have a sheriff ease them on their way through encouragement. Be on the first freight train out encouragement. 
 Today instead we have food banks and rescue mission shelters where bums may be fed and sleep for free. It's working well because we have a steady growing population of bums in our city of 535,000. Our birds are well taken care of here. Word is we will be building a new library downtown for 30 million so those who want to camp outdoors and miss cerfew at the shelters will have a new modern contemporary structure to surround for warmth in the dead of winter. 
Thanks for your insight on the linguistically interesting meaning of arcaneues of thug and vandal behaviors.
You gotta love words.......
Tim 8 8.


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## Keith Bradford

Coming to this discussion late in the day, I notice a few undeveloped points:

The word _piker_ meaning a petty thief is 14th century.
There is a French word _piquer_, also 14th century, meaning to steal (still in use in modern French slang = _"to pinch, to snaffle"_).
Gipsies have existed in Britain since at least the Middle Ages.
Shakespeare uses "pickers" to mean thieving fingers (_Hamlet_, 3:2).
The _turnpike_ roads were invented in England in the late 18th century.
There was a 15-fold rise in the US population 1800-1900, mainly through immigration.
_Pikey_ meaning gipsy is first attested in the 1830s.
Modern English slang has another parallel racial slur "Don't be such a jew!" (= don't be a skinflint).
*My surmise* is this:

The original word was derived from mediaeval French and meant petty thief (1,2).  It remained live in English slang as _piker_/_picker_ (c.f. pickpocket) to modern times (4).  At some early stage, *before* the turnpike roads, it extended to the gipsy meaning (3, 5, 7, c.f. 8). This travelled to America with 19th-century immigration (6).  With little knowledge of French or etymology, some Americans attributed the word to local sources.  The proximity of the 'turnpike-walker' meaning reinforced this (5, 7).

But anybody can surmise...   Any comments?


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## James Brandon

Tim also refers to the term 'tanner', but I think your recapitulation is very clear and quite convincing, Keith.

I have always wondered whether actual gipsies moved to England and Ireland in the Middle Ages, and traveller communities would be descended from them, but that is not a linguistic issue but an anthropological one: in Central/ Eastern Europe and in Spain, Roma people are distinctly related to populations from (north) India and speak, at any rate in E Europe, their own language (Romani); I doubt this is the case when it comes to the traveller population in Britain/Ireland.

Wikipedia gives some background and explains the connection:-

Romanichal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the origin of 'piker'/ 'pikey', I think the explanations given are detailed and compelling.


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## Tim 8 8

A quick surmise for old Keith and James ....
Robin Hood was a piker , Barry Lyndon ( Stanley Kubrick movie ) was a tinker, Gypsies like Jews are a cultural clique receiving derrision by their own behavioral choices as well as being of different tribes that prefer to not inner marry.
All were in the subset of highwaymen. 
Alas we fear and deride the tribal we are unfamiliar - hence why war exists.
The selection of language to describe another tribe is provocation based on hubris so is such as thinking only good ideas are those conceived by French and English minds and by abstraction they invented everything first. 
As an aside James, Spain invaded Ireland and perhaps a Romani from Spain came along as merchant sailors thereby infecting Ireland with travelers DNA.  Keith your number 7 has no support.
A rose is a rose no matter by what name it be called .....yet it's hard to tell which culture produced snobbery best.
I find it ironic that polite behavior is required for discussion of various types of racial/ ethnic slur derivation in hot linguistic pursuit so long as British feelings are not damaged by a thought of non British English usage being typed.
The hyprocracy of that is so worthy of ridicule. But that might be perceived as rude.
You gotta love words.....
Thank you for your insights.


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## Keith Bradford

Tim 8 8 said:


> ...  Keith your number 7 ("_Pikey_ meaning gipsy is first attested in the 1830s") has no support...



I quoted the OED, as told by Panjandrum in #33. 



> ...yet it's hard to tell which culture produced snobbery best.
> I find it ironic that polite behavior is required for discussion of various types of racial/ ethnic slur derivation in hot linguistic pursuit so long as British feelings are not damaged by a thought of non British English usage being typed.
> The hyprocracy of that is so worthy of ridicule. But that might be perceived as rude...



In so far as I understand this paragraph, I think it's meant to be rude, isn't it?

Let me make my point absolutely clear: *whether in Kent or in California, the idea that a 14th-century word (piker) is derived from an 18th-century invention (turnpike road) or a 19th-century one (Pike county) seems to me... shall we say a little illogical.* 

Perhaps many years of studying words have left me with a cynical eye for folk-etymologies.  But hell, my #45 was a hypothesis - demolish it or find a better.


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## James Brandon

The point I was making about Roma people in the UK and Ireland was that they do not appear to constitute a homogenous group as they still are in, say, Romania or Slovakia, 2 countries I happen to know and where large Roma populations can be found, who still speak their language. I did insert the link to the Wikipedia article, which does state that Roma people did come to the British Isles around the 14th or 15th centuries (I have not double-checked the dates before writing this), but that the use of the Roma language in the British Isles disappeared in the 19th century.

Having said all this, the Thread was about the term 'piker'/ 'pikey', which does seem to have been used (and probably still is) in certain quarters/ regions of the English-speaking world in order to describe gypsies. Regarding the various possible origins and the broader usage, I feel that Posts #33 and #45 (Keith and Panj) summarize the position quite clearly.


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## Tim 8 8

Keith Bradford said:


> I quoted the OED, as told by Panjandrum in #33.
> 
> 
> 
> In so far as I understand this paragraph, I think it's meant to be rude, isn't it?
> 
> Let me make my point absolutely clear: *whether in Kent or in California, the idea that a 14th-century word (piker) is derived from an 18th-century invention (turnpike road) or a 19th-century one (Pike county) seems to me... shall we say a little illogical.*
> 
> Perhaps many years of studying words have left me with a cynical eye for folk-etymologies.  But hell, my #45 was a hypothesis - demolish it or find a better.



My limited understanding of how current English usage through linguistic development occurs unfortunately contains the ability to use folklore or myth to defend the right to define and use a word ( incorrectly at first) in a new meaning and popularize it in a manner of frequency to destroy its vestige of past use. There exits a perjorative of usage in the last 50 years, in my not so humble opinion. 
Hence I cast my cynical eye toward the adoption of the word "gay " as proof of the morphology taking place.
In short, yes  Kieth I agree Pikes Peak, Colorado and Pike County, Missouri have nothing to do with pikers. But a sweatshirt company might stencil pikey on shirt and sell it at the top of Pikes Peak to claim assent rememberance.
If done through frequent continuous assimilation, Wikipedia will define falsehoods that are true but incorrect.
Again a logic problem by twisted or corrupted usage uncorrected by thought police because sensitivity training dictates
are more of a concern to maintain civility, rather than courage in the preservation of meaning. 
You gotta love words...


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## Keith Bradford

Tim 8 8 said:


> ...
> Again a logic problem by twisted or corrupted usage uncorrected by thought police because sensitivity training dictates
> are more of a concern to maintain civility, rather than courage in the preservation of meaning.
> You gotta love words...



I'm not actually talking about usage - usage changes day by day, and over centuries words can even morph into their opposites.

I'm talking about the truth of the past, which remains what it was unless falsified by ignorant or malicious people.  If _piker/pikey_ originally meant _thief_ in the 14th century (which I'm pretty damn sure it did), from a French word meaning _to pick_ (purses or pockets), then that is a *fact*.  The invention of the turnpike road in 1707 should not be allowed to make anyone think that pikers were originally those who wandered the turnpike roads.  (In fact, I think it most unlikely that roaming gypsies and/or thieves used the turnpike roads -- these were toll roads for which they'd have to pay, and which did not pass close to houses.  But that's another story.)

I don't really understand your comments on sensitivity training, but I'm not about to turn a blind eye to the fact that people (my father for instance) used to assume, and some still assume, that _gipsy = thief_.  You don't overcome racial stereotypes by pretending they don't exist, as I was made very aware of when I last represented a gipsy client in front of a tribunal.


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## PaulQ

I suspect that as "*navvies*" were those who built the navigation canals, the *pikey-men/pikeys* where those who built and maintained the turnpike roads - common, ill-paid labourers - and that pre-18th century reference to piking, etc - i.e. thieves - is merely coincidental and related to "piquer" as in Pike/Piker/Pikey - In Irish context


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## Keith Bradford

Now that's an interesting idea!

To take it a little further, it's a historical fact that many of the navvies were itinerant *Irish* labourers, making extra money between harvests back home.

There's material for a PhD thesis here!


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## Andygc

Keith Bradford said:


> I quoted the OED, as told by Panjandrum in #33.


No, you used panjandrum's post as a reference, failing to notice that his post discussed more than one word. The OED gives a very specific account of the etymology of "pikey", a south-eastern regional British English word for a traveller, which does not appear to share any etymology with other pike-like words that have arisen in other parts of the world.





> Etymology:  Formed within English, by derivation. Etymons: pike n.7, -y suffix 6.


pike n.7 is the short form of turnpike. The definition is 





> A traveller, a gypsy; a vagrant, a tramp; (hence more generally) a lower-class person, regarded as coarse or disreputable.
> Earliest in compound _pikey-man_ n.


It is first recorded in 1838.





> 1838  _Times_ 27 Aug. 6/2  A desperate affray occurred at Eastchurch in Sheppey, between the resident labourers and the ‘pikey-men’, as they are termed, or strangers who have come into the island to harvesting.
> 1847  J. O. Halliwell _Dict. Archaic & Provinc. Words_ II  _Piky_, a gipsey. _Kent_.
> 1887  W. D. Parish & W. F. Shaw _Dict. Kentish Dial._ 116  _Piky_,..a turnpike traveller; a vagabond; and so generally a low fellow.


If the OED has its etymology correctly, the word has no connection with 14th century thieves or 18th century road-builders. There is no reason to claim that pikeys didn't travel on the turnpikes - there were no tolls for pedestrians.


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