# Θα σκοτωθούμε



## Einars

I cannot translate this text by Google Translator. Could you please help me?


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## Perseas

I 'll try to translate it: 
Μαχαίρι Κρητικό κρατώ και δε φοβούμαι
όπου αγαπώ μην αγαπάς γιατί θα σκοτωθούμε

I am holding a Cretan knife and I am not afraid
 don't love where (whomever) I love, because we are going to kill each other.


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## konos

Just a little note, that's what we call a "Cretan Mantinada - Wikipedia" (κρητική μαντινάδα).


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## Scholiast

Hello, sorry I can add little here but to observe (a) that Google is a pretty lousy translator (especially for even mildly inflected languages such as modern Greek); and (b) the splendid Perseas (in # 3) left out ενθυμον...Κρητης, which means 'remember Crete'. From its appearance and sentiment, it must surely have something to do with the Battle of Crete in 1941, following the German occupation. This was followed by gritty local resistance. I hope others here will be more informative than I can.

Σ


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## Tr05

Hello, everyone! Scholiast, your guess is nice, but I don't think there's any historical event behind this specific knife (For sure, in the war of Crete in 1941, the Germans faced an opposition they hadn't reckoned with, and so they suffered a very big amount of casualties and their overall plans took a big hit). The Cretans have always been known to the rest of the Greeks as those people who have traditionally been very passionate about their land. Even if one observes just the position (apart from its history, of course) of Crete compared to mainland Greece, it makes sense why many locals have such a strong bond with their island. Those "mantinades" can be found on many items of Cretan origin, the people seem to want to make sure that everyone knows about their passion.
One small correction: The phrase written on the knife is "Ενθύμιον Κρήτης", "Souvenir from Crete"


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## Scholiast

χαίρετ᾽ ὦ φίλοι

Thank you, Tr05, for the correction: I did not examine the photograph carefully enough. What a good thing I'm not an epigraphist or palaeographer. Yes I am aware of the Cretans' fierce pride in being Cretan, not just Greek—as a Scot, though pleased enough to be British, I can sympathize with that. But the μαντινάδες? I clearly have a lot to learn still.

Σ


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## bearded

A further linguistic question: does _tha skotothoume _necessarily mean ''we will kill each other'', or could it not simply mean ''we will be killed''? Thank you.


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## Tr05

In this context, it can only mean "we will kill each other". However, this phrase is almost always used metaphorically, and means that two people are going to engage in some sort of not so calm and not so polite conversation. Of course, in the case of the Cretans, it wouldn't be too strange if weapons were brought into the "conversation"


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## bearded

Isn't it rather complicated to ''kill each other'' with a knife..?   Or is the 2nd line independent of the 1st one?


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## Tr05

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about translating this text in relation to the item it's written on. The way I see it, the meaning is more like that the people involved won't actually meet each other with the intention of "last man standing", but who knows what could happen if the "peaceful" talks failed... After all, the people on the other side will be carrying some sort of knife or weapon with them, so it's not like they're gonna fight with _one _knife.


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## bearded

Tr05 said:


> it's not like they're gonna fight with _one _knife.


I had not thought of that.
Thanks for your response.


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## Tr05

A southern Italian would have definitely thought of that


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## bearded

You are right.


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## Scholiast

Avete!


Tr05 said:


> A southern Italian would have definitely thought of that


Mediaeval Scots too!
Σ


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## apmoy70

Scholiast said:


> Avete!
> 
> Mediaeval Scots too!
> Σ


...and Maniots


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## Perseas

I agree with Tr05. I 'd like to add only this.


bearded said:


> A further linguistic question: does _tha skotothoume _necessarily mean ''we will kill each other'', or could it not simply mean ''we will be killed''? Thank you.


In the sentence of the first post rather not. In a different context it could mean "we will be killed". In any case, the context will decide and what you want to communicate.

"θα σκοτωθούμε" (present: "σκοτωνόμαστε") is a passive verb morphologically.
The passive form (of this verb) can express either passivity or reciprocity, as in the sentence of the first post. When reciprocity is expressed the subject must be plural.


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> When reciprocity is expressed the subject must be plural.


In the singular,  would _tha skotothò _only mean 'I will be killed' or also 'I'll kill myself'?


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## Tr05

bearded said:


> In the singular,  would _tha skotothò _only mean 'I will be killed' or also 'I'll kill myself'?


Well, grammatically, it could have either of those meanings, but it's never actually used for the second one. "I will kill myself" means "I'll commit suicide", so that would translate to "θα αυτοκτονήσω" (ρήμα: αυτοκτονώ)


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## velisarius

bearded said:


> tha skotothò


 It can also mean  colloquially "I'll break my neck", as in "I can't wear those high-heeled sandals; I'll break my neck".

_Δεν μπορώ να φοράω τέτοια παπούτσια, θα σκοτωθώ. Δεν μπορώ να κατεβώ τα σκαλοπάτια στο σκοτάδι, θα σκοτωθώ._


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## bearded

To you all many thanks for the answers and explanations / efcharisto poly gia tis apantiseis kai exigiseis sas.


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## Scholiast

χαίρετε πάλιν, ὦ φίλοι



Perseas said:


> θα σκοτωθούμε" (present: "σκοτωνόμαστε") is a passive verb morphologically



For me this prompts a further question. In classical Greek there is some overlap between middle and passive morphologies; and some middle verbs are used (or can be used) with reflexive sense. Can σκοτωθούμε be construed this way here?

Σ


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## bearded

Tr05 said:


> grammatically, it could have either of those meanings


The second of those meaning was ''I will kill myself'' for _tha skotothò _(#17, 18 above). Apparently middle can be also reflexive.. But let's wait for confirmation from natives.


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## Perseas

In Ancient Greek:
With respect to their *form* verbs are active and middle. According to their *meaning* (disposition), they can be active, middle, passive (in future & aorist they have distinct morphologies) and neutral.

In Modern Greek:
With respect to their *form* verbs fall into two groups, i.e. the active and passive voice. With respect to their *meaning *(disposition) they can be active, passive, middle and neutral. Verbs whose meaning is active generally follow the active voice, while verbs whose meaning is passive or middle generally follow the passive voice. But "υποφέρω" (= suffer) is active in form whereas passive in meaning.


Scholiast said:


> χαίρετε πάλιν, ὦ φίλοι
> For me this prompts a further question. In classical Greek there is some overlap between middle and passive morphologies; and some middle verbs are used (or can be used) with reflexive sense. Can σκοτωθούμε be construed this way here?
> Σ



Scholiast, I think the answer to your question is yes.
"θα σκοτωθούμε" is passive in respect to its form but according to its meaning in this context is middle expressing reciprocity (in Gr. it is characterised "μέσο αλληλοπαθές"). In velisarius' sentence above (_Δεν μπορώ να φοράω τέτοια παπούτσια, *θα σκοτωθώ*_) "θα σκοτωθώ" is "μέσο αυτοπαθές", i.e. I guess, middle reflexive.


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