# Proto-Germanic *xailo "whole" and Akkadian kalu "whole"



## CyrusSH

Compare it to other proto-Germanic and Akkadian words that I have mentioned in this forum, such as Proto-Germanic *saipo "soap" and Akkadian sapu "to bathe" and Proto-Germanic *gaito "goat" and Akkadian gadu "young goat, kid" . Does it prove something?


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## Treaty

Proto-Germanic *_xailaz _means "healthy" (and so > "holy", "whole", "hail", etc)_. _Pokorny proposes PIE *_kai-lo_, but I don't know what recent opinion is about this root.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> Proto-Germanic *_xailaz _means "healthy" (and so > "holy", "whole", "hail", etc)_. _Pokorny proposes PIE *_kai-lo_, but I don't know what recent opinion is about this root.



I don't know from where you found Proto-Germanic *_xailaz_ means "healthy" but not "whole", Pokorny doesn't say this thing. I think that is actually opposite, compare to Avestan _Haurvatat_ which means "wholeness" but in Zoroastrianism is  the Amesha Spenta of health.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I don't know from where you found Proto-Germanic *_xailaz_ means "healthy"


That is common knowledge. The core meaning of _whole _is the opposite of _destroyed, damaged_ or _sick_. As Treaty said, look at all the other with that root. Another one he should have mentioned is _to heal_. See also German _heilen = to heal_, _heil = not damaged and the_ exclamation _heil = hail_. The meaning _whole _is a development within English.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> I don't know from where you found Proto-Germanic *_xailaz_ means "healthy" but not "whole", Pokorny doesn't say this thing. I think that is actually opposite, compare to Avestan _Haurvatat_ which means "wholeness" but in Zoroastrianism is  the Amesha Spenta of health.


From Orel's _A Handbook of Germanic Etymology. _He refers to Pokorny's etymology there. Regarding _heal_, I didn't mention it because it was one of many secondary derivatives of that root (from *_xailjanan_).


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## CyrusSH

I can't understand how you can relate these words to each other with the meaning of "health", let's look at etymonline:

health: Old English hælþ "*wholeness*, a being *whole*, sound or well,"

hail: an abbreviated sentence expressing a wish, 'be *whole*'

holy: that must be preserved *whole* or intact, that cannot be transgressed or violated.

heal: literally "to make *whole*"


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## berndf

Yes, _whole=not sick, not damaged_. That's what we said.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> Yes, _whole=not sick, not damaged_. That's what we said.



But the original meaning of "whole" is "not incomplete, not partial", as I said you can compare it to the Avestan word that I mentioned, it is from PIE *_solh₂-_ "whole", Greek _holos_ is from the same PIE root (like in _holocaust_) and also Latin _salvus_ which means "healthy" too, and _salve_ "hail".


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> But the original meaning of "whole" is "not incomplete, not partial"


No. That is simply wrong.


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## CyrusSH

It seems modern German language is just an exception in the Germanic language about the word for _whole_ with the meaning of "not incomplete, not partial", according to wiktionary the word _ganz_ is used, but in almost all other Germanic languages we see similar words, for example Dutch _heel_ just means "not incomplete, not partial", Old Norse heill, Old Frisian _hēl_, ...


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## berndf

The meaning complete, entire is a secondary, derived meaning also in North Germanic. The semantic shift in Dutch is modern. The original meaning still exists in _helen = to heal_.


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## Sardokan1.0

This thing of Whole/Healthy is present also in Corsican and Sardinian languages.


In Corsican there is _"sanu"_ which means both healthy and whole (while in Italian, _"sano"_ only means healthy)
In Sardinian language instead _"sanu"_ only means healthy, like in Italian, but there is another word : _"sìncheru"_ which means whole or sound of mind.


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## CyrusSH

About the word _whole_, we know English _wh_ is from proto-Germanic _xʷ_ and berndf said in another thread that there is a big difference between  _xʷ_ and _x_+vowel, does it mean the English word is from another origin?


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## berndf

The spelling with _wh_ is unetymological. It is late Middle English/early Modern English. It was introduced to disambiguate _whole_ and _hole_.


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## CyrusSH

Comparing to Modern English _soap_ and _goat_, shouldn't its correct form be _hoal_?


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## rushalaim

Russian [*k*e*l*y] or [tsely] _"whole"_ similar to Aramaic [*k*a*l*] _"whole"_.


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## CyrusSH

rushalaim said:


> Russian [*k*e*l*y] or [tsely] _"whole"_ similar to Aramaic [*k*a*l*] _"whole"_.



What does the Russian word mean, "whole" with the meaning of "not sick" or "not incomplete"? Is it considered as a cognate with the Germanic word?


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Comparing to Modern English _soap_ and _goat_, shouldn't its correct form be _hoal_?


A more relevant comparison is _stone_. But it doesn't really matter. A long open _o_ was sometimes spelled _oa_ and sometimes _o_. The latter spelling usually survived in (originally) open syllables because open stressed syllables always had a long vowel and it didn't need marking.

But I don't see the relevance of the quirks of Middle/Early Modern English spelling to the question of this thread.


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## rushalaim

CyrusSH said:


> What does the Russian word mean, "whole" with the meaning of "not sick" or "not incomplete"? Is it considered as a cognate with the Germanic word?


Russian [kely] or modern [tsely] _"whole"_ means "complete not desintegrated". For example, Russian [tselovati] _"to kiss"_ means two parts become the whole common united thing, to become complete.
Russian isn't from Germanic, I think Russian and Gothic(Germanic) have the common ancestor language. 

(Though, some modern Russian words derived from Gothic, for example, the modern Russian [hleb] _"bread"_ derived from Gothic [klaibus].)


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Russian [kely] or modern [tsely]


[kely] or rather_ *kailos _is a reconstructed pre-Slavic form, possibly proto-Balto-Slavic, if that language ever existed. It is not Russian.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> [kely] or rather_ *kailos _is a reconstructed pre-Slavic form, possibly proto-Balto-Slavic, if that language ever existed. It is not Russian.


You're saying funny things. )) Perhaps, you didn't even know about different ancient Russian dialects. The Northern Russian said [*k*ely], but the Southern Russian says [*ts*ely]. Similarly, we can see the same difference of Russian dialects with the word _"hand"_. The Northern Russian says [ru*k*a], but the Southern Russian said [ru*ts*e].
(By the way, the old Latin always said [k] in words or even in ABC, but the late Latin said always [ts], or English [si] in ABC. For example, the word caesar _"king"_ the real pronunciation was [*k*esar] but later [*ts*esar] or Russian [*ts*ar'] or Germanic [*k*aiser].)


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## CyrusSH

rushalaim said:


> Russian [kely] or modern [tsely] _"whole"_ means "complete not desintegrated". For example, Russian [tselovati] _"to kiss"_ means two parts become the whole common united thing, to become complete.
> Russian isn't from Germanic, I think Russian and Gothic(Germanic) have the common ancestor language.
> 
> (Though, some modern Russian words derived from Gothic, for example, the modern Russian [hleb] _"bread"_ derived from Gothic [klaibus].)



I'm also talking about a common origin, you yourself compared it to Aramaic _kal_, do you believe these words relate to each other?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> You're saying funny things. )) Perhaps, you didn't even know about different ancient Russian dialects. The Northern Russian said [*k*ely], but the Southern Russian says [*ts*ely]. Similarly, we can see the same difference of Russian dialects with the word _"hand"_. The Northern Russian says [ru*k*a], but the Southern Russian said [ru*ts*e].
> (By the way, the old Latin always said [k] in words or even in ABC, but the late Latin said always [ts], or English [si] in ABC. For example, the word caesar _"king"_ the real pronunciation was [*k*esar] but later [*ts*esar] or Russian [*ts*ar'] or Germanic [*k*aiser].)


Are you talking of the Old Novgorod dialect? I suppose you can call it a dialect of "Russian". I am just not used to calling it thus.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Are you talking of the Old Novgorod dialect? I suppose you can call it a dialect of "Russian". I am just not used to calling it thus.


The modern Russian is the compromise between the Great Novogorod's dialect and Kiev's dialect, 50% / 50%.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> The modern Russian is the compromise between the Great Novogorod's dialect and Kiev's dialect, 50% / 50%.


So Old Novgorodian is what you meant by "Northern Russian". I am with you. Sorry for the confusion.


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## rushalaim

CyrusSH said:


> I'm also talking about a common origin, you yourself compared it to Aramaic _kal_, do you believe these words relate to each other?


If Russian [kely] and Aramaic [kalu] have common sounds and meaning, they relate each other undoubtedly. There are many common words of Aramaic and Russian. For example, Aramaic [qarta] _"stone walled city"_ and Russian [gorod]. Or Aramaic [qalu] _"voice"_ and Russian [golos] and English [call] and Germanic [kallen] and Latin [glos].


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## berndf

_Gorod/grad_ have decent Baltic and Germanic cognate candidates. A relation Semitic is rather doubtful.


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## rushalaim

I assume, English [*coll*ect] may be suit to the thread.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> _Gorod/grad_ have decent Baltic and Germanic cognate candidates. A relation Semitic is rather doubtful.


Russian [ogorod] _"fenced ground to grow vegetables"_ has the same root with Russian [gorod] _"city"_. 
Thus, Russian and Aramaic words have common meaning "to guard something with a wall".


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## berndf

_


rushalaim said:



			I assume, English [*coll*ect] may be suit to the thread.
		
Click to expand...

Collect_ is from Latin _collectus_, itself an assimilation of _com+lectus_.  Almost all Latin verbs starting with _co- _followed by a geminate consonant are formed with the Old Latin prefix _com-_ (=Classical Latin _cum=with_).


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Russian [ogorod] _"fenced ground to grow vegetables"_ has the same root with Russian [gorod] _"city"_.
> Thus, Russian and Aramaic words have common meaning "to guard something with a wall".


That might be but the Germanic connection  to the Germanic root _gard- _as in _garden_ is much more obvious and the semantic proximity is at least as good if not better.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> That might be but the Germanic connection  to the Germanic root _gard- _as in _garden_ is much more obvious and the semantic proximity is at least as good if not better.


Russian has one more word [ograda] _"fence"_ from the root. From that root there are: _"city"_, _"garden"_, _"fence"_. The only meaning is "to guard something". 
There is Russian [*ber*loga] _"bear's hole"_. Germanic has [bera] (*Ber*lin-city). Do you think again, Russian derived from Germanic, or nevertheless Russian and Germanic have common ancestor language?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Russian derived from Germanic, or nevertheless Russian and Germanic have common ancestor language?


Common ancestor. Within IE, Germanic is probably the closest relative to Slavic and Baltic.

By the way: The toponym _Berlin_ is almost certainly of Slavic and not of Germanic origin. The name is at least 800 years old. At that time the region was Polabic (a West Slavic language) speaking and the suffix -_in_ is typical for Germanized Polabic place names.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Common ancestor. Within IE, Germanic is probably the closest relative to Slavic and Baltic.
> 
> By the way: The toponym _Berlin_ is almost certainly of Slavic and not of Germanic origin. The name is at least 800 years old. At that time the region was Polabic (a West Slavic language) speaking and the suffix -_in_ is typical for Germanized Polabic place names.


I heard, there were three tribes on the territory of modern Germany: Celts, Goths and Slavs in close connections. 
Do you think, Ber*lin*, the second part of the word is _"city"_ like in Estonian [linn] Tal*linn* _"Danish_(Deutch)_-city"_?


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> I heard, there were three tribes on the territory of modern Germany: Celts, Goths and Slavs in close connections.
> Do you think, Ber*lin*, the second part of the word is _"city"_ like in Estonian [linn] Tal*linn* _"Danish_(Deutch)_-city"_?


I am afraid this is taking us to far from the topic of this thread.


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## miasam

rushalaim, I just recently made the same observations as you about the connections between the words for calling, voice etc. I think you will appreciate the book _Hebrew Language and Jewish Thought_ by David Patterson, more precisely the chapter called "The Issue of Meaning".
Also, it's a beautiful point you make about _tseluvati_ and _making one whole_.
On the topic: I think there are certain patterns in the formation of words based on the way our brains work and associate things and that those patternd are valid more or less for all people, so it seems natural that there are parallels in words from different and otherwise unrelated languages, it doesn't necessarily mean that the speakers of the languages have had historical contact. *
*


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