# Beg the question



## Schrodinger's_Cat

*Beg the question*

In the WordReference it reads, *mancare il punto*, but I am not convinced of this definition. Could anyone tell me whether you agree with this definition?

See http://www.wordreference.com/enit/beg

Please read also here ... http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm


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## Paulfromitaly

I think you're right: mancare il punto has little to do with to beg the question..
I'd say "Rendere necessario chiedersi se/domandarsi".


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Thanks for your help, Paul.


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## Necsus

Oxford Paravia translates it as _dare per scontato_...


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Paul, Necsus, what do you think of these translations:

*begging the question* = Elemosinare la questione 
*begging the question* = l'accattonaggio che la questione
*That begs the question* = Questo solleva la questione

at http://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it&sl=en&u=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dto%2Bbeg%2Bthe%2Bquestion%26hl%3Dit%26sa%3DG


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## Einstein

Ben's second link (worldwidewords) gives the correct original definition; the term has little to do with begging in the normal sense and is the result of a poor translation from Greek and Latin. It means arguing in circles, using the conclusion as a premise, i.e. assuming what you have not yet proved.
No examples come to mind; it would be useful to have some.

_Mancare il punto_ can be translated literally into English as _to miss the point_ and certainly doesn't mean _to beg the question_!


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## Necsus

Then I assume the OP's definition is just incomplete, since the Hazon gives: 
"dare per scontato *ciò che andrebbe dimostrato*",
and it should come from the philosophical locution_ '_petizione di principio' (Latin _petitio principii_): "errore di logica per il quale si pone come fondamento della dimostrazione ciò che appunto si dovrebbe dimostrare" (Garzanti).


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## Einstein

Necsus said:


> Then I assume the OP's definition is just incomplete, since the Hazon gives:
> "dare per scontato *ciò che andrebbe dimostrato*",
> and it should come from the philosophical locution_ '_petizione di principio' (Latin _petitio principii_): "errore di logica per il quale si pone come fondamento della dimostrazione ciò che appunto si dovrebbe dimostrare" (Garzanti).


 Esatto! Ma esiste un modo di dire italiano, più conciso di 
"dare per scontato *ciò che andrebbe dimostrato*"?


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## Necsus

Einstein said:


> Esatto! Ma esiste un modo di dire italiano, più conciso di
> "dare per scontato *ciò che andrebbe dimostrato*"?


Yes, 'dare (tutto) per scontato'...!


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## Einstein

Necsus said:


> Yes, 'dare (tutto) per scontato'...!


Ma questo è molto più generico di "beg the question", che è riferito specificamente ad un errore di logica.


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## Necsus

Einstein said:


> Ma questo è molto più generico di "beg the question", che è riferito specificamente ad un errore di logica.


Lo so, era una battuta riferita alla definizione dell'OP. Comunque non credo che ci siano molte alternative più specifiche, a parte 'fare una petizione di principio', per chi lo capisce...


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Thanks Einstein and Necsus.

Here is an example of a question-begging argument: *“This painting is trash because it is obviously worthless.”* The speaker is simply asserting the worthlessness of the work, not presenting any evidence to demonstrate that this is in fact the case. 

I took the example from this document http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/begs.html


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## Alxmrphi

BenVitale... '*questione*' in English means '*matter*', '*question*' in Italian is *domanda*.

Chiedere una domanda sull'argomento di questioni politici
To ask a question on the topic of political matters....


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Alex_Murphy said:


> BenVitale... '*questione*' in English means '*matter*', '*question*' in Italian is *domanda*.
> 
> Chiedere una domanda sull'argomento di questioni politici
> To ask a question on the topic of political matters....


 
Thanks Alex_Murphy, but I already knew that. I just don't agree with the definition given in WordReference, "mancare il punto" which is in English, "to miss the point"


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## Alxmrphi

Oh right, sorry, but in post number 5 (by you) you included some examples translating 'question' as 'questione', so I didn't know! 
This dictionary is showing to have quite a few problems recently!


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

No worries, it's all good!


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## cyberpedant

The phrase "beg the question" is undergoing some changes in AE. Although I personally prefer the meaning which Necsus has proposed in post 7 above, many people people believe that the word "beg" simply means "pose" or "ask." More context would be useful for us to determine which of these is meant. To answer Einstein's request, one of my favorite (possibly not so obvious) examples of begging the question in the sense of "petitio principii" goes as follows:  "The [insert your favorite book here] is the literally true word of God." "How do you know that? "Because it says so."


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

I found another example:

It is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself.

A simple example would be *"I think he is unattractive because he is ugly."* The adjective "ugly" does not explain why the subject is "unattractive" -- they virtually amount to the same subjective meaning, and the proof is merely a restatement of the premise. The sentence has begged the question.

Source: http://begthequestion.info/


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## federicoft

I think _tautologia_ is the term you are looking for.
"Questa è una tautologia!" is a good translation for "That begs the question!" IMO. You can also say "questo elude (completamente) il punto/la domanda" depending on the context.


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## Necsus

Einstein said:


> Ma esiste un modo di dire italiano, più conciso di "dare per scontato *ciò che andrebbe dimostrato*"?


In some cases, it can be used 'ragionamento circolare' (HERE). And in English 'raises the question' is a suggested alternative (Wikipedia):
_In contemporary usage, "begging the question" often refers to an argument where the premises are as questionable as the conclusion._
_In popular usage, "begging the question" is often used to mean that a statement invites another obvious question. This usage is stated to be incorrect in The Oxford Guide to English Usage, 1st edition; "raises the question" is suggested as a more appropriate alternative._ 


Alex_Murphy said:


> BenVitale... '*questione*' in English means '*matter*', '*question*' in Italian is *domanda*.





BenVitale said:


> Thanks Alex_Murphy, but I already knew that. I just don't agree with the definition given in WordReference, "mancare il punto" which is in English, "to miss the point"


Alex, in this case maybe the meaning of _question_ could be exactly _questione_, see below that explanation about the etymology.
And Ben, it maybe can explain too the entry in WRDictionary (to miss the point). From HERE:
_The phrase "begging the question", or "petitio principii" in Latin, refers to the "question" in a formal debate—that is, the issue being debated. In such a debate, one side may ask the other side to concede certain points in order to speed up the proceedings. To "beg" the question is to ask that the very point at issue be conceded, which is of course illegitimate._


federicoft said:


> I think _tautologia_ is the term you are looking for.


Hmm... Federico, non credo che sia esattamente la stessa cosa, con _tautologia_ si intende un'affermazione che è vera per definizione, e quindi non aggiunge di fatto nessun elemento d'informazione. In logica definisce invece un 'enunciato complesso che è logicamente vero, indipendentemente dai valori di verità delle proposizioni elementari che lo compongono'. E nel linguaggio quotidiano è più che altro usata con il significato di ovvietà, di ripetizione ovvia, in quanto con il predicato non si aggiunge nulla a quanto già espresso dal soggetto.


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## wonderment

BenVitale said:


> *
> In the WordReference it reads, mancare il punto, but I am not convinced of this definition. Could anyone tell me whether you agree with this definition?*


*

Hi there! I agree that it's one possible translation, depending on context. Why assume that the original sense of petitio principii is the only correct definition for ‘beg the question’? Words do undergo semantic shift as usage changes over time, and in fact, the entry for ‘beg the question’ in The Oxford American Dictionary gives:




1 (of a fact or action) raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question. 2 avoid the question, evade the issue. 3. assume the truth of an argument or prosposition to be proved, without arguing it.
		
Click to expand...


N.B. the primary meaning (i.e. the most common modern usage) is ‘to invite a question’ (Rendere necessario chiedersi se/domandarsi). 2. mancare il punto. 3. dare per scontato ciò che andrebbe dimostrato. The note on usage is too long for me to quote, but this seems relevant: “Both of these newer meanings [#1 and 2] are widely accepted in modern standard English, although they have been criticized as being misunderstandings of the Latin rhetorical term.” 

And from The Columbia Guide to Standard American English:




beg the question

is an idiomatic expression meaning “to assume the truth of the conclusion of one’s argument without bothering to prove it” and then, by extension, “to evade or dodge the question and argue another matter instead”: Her argument for a second chance was eloquent, but it begged the question: she never explained why she had failed to appear for the original examination.

Click to expand...


In this example, mancare il punto would be a valid translation, no? *


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## federicoft

Necsus said:


> Hmm... Federico, non credo che sia esattamente la stessa cosa, con _tautologia_ si intende un'affermazione che è vera per definizione, e quindi non aggiunge di fatto nessun elemento d'informazione. In logica definisce invece un 'enunciato complesso che è logicamente vero, indipendentemente dai valori di verità delle proposizioni elementari che lo compongono'. E nel linguaggio quotidiano è più che altro usata con il significato di ovvietà, di ripetizione ovvia, in quanto con il predicato non si aggiunge nulla a quanto già espresso dal soggetto.



Beh, mi sembra calzi abbastanza con la definizione data da Ben:



BenVitale said:


> I found another example:
> 
> It is a form of logical fallacy in which a statement or claim is assumed to be true without evidence other than the statement or claim itself.
> 
> A simple example would be *"I think he is unattractive because he is ugly."* The adjective "ugly" does not explain why the subject is "unattractive" -- they virtually amount to the same subjective meaning, and the proof is merely a restatement of the premise. The sentence has begged the question.
> 
> Source: http://begthequestion.info/


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## Einstein

Another tautology:
"Too much freedom is a bad thing". By definition, too much of anything is a bad thing, but it raises the question: is there too much freedom?
And another:
"A straight line is the shortest distance between two points". We can only determine whether it actually is the shortest distance, and therefore a straight line, by measuring it... with a straight-edge.

By the way, *wonderment* translates "avoid the question, evade the issue", as "mancare il punto". As said earlier, "mancare il punto" means "miss the point", which is different.
It should be said that "begging the question" in its original meaning is after all a way of avoiding the issue and also leads people to ask questions, so the meanings are connected.


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## Necsus

federicoft said:


> Beh, mi sembra calzi abbastanza con la definizione data da Ben:


Secondo me no, perché nella _tautologia_ gli elementi aggiuntivi non devono dimostrare la veridicità dell'affermazione, già data per scontata, e non fanno altro che ribadirla, mentre nella _petizione di principio_ dovrebbero dimostrarla, ma non lo fanno perché ripropongono come dimostrazione l'affermazione stessa, o una equivalente.
Ma naturalmente è una questione d'interpretazione.


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## cyberpedant

Einstein said:


> but it *raises *the question: is there too much freedom?



As I mentioned previously, many AE speakers (pretending to a "higher" register) would say "it *begs *the question" here. I consider this an error.


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Have we reached a consensus as to how to translate it in Italian?

How about : *Rendere una questione o domanda impertinente o non pertinente*?


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## TheCouch86_86

*H*ello folks, first post in here... *T*hrilled to bits indeed! actually I was thinking I don*'*t think I ever used 'mancare il punto' in my entire life and haven*'*t heard it before now... Anyways, I'd just consider that to be some "not to hit the spot" type of expression... *C*ould that be?


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## Necsus

BenVitale said:


> Have we reached a consensus as to how to translate it in Italian?
> I don't think so...
> How about : *Rendere una questione o domanda impertinente o non pertinente*?


Ben, nowadays _impertinente_ means (almost) only _insolent, saucy_. Anyway I'm afraid it can't be the solution... 


TheCouch86_86 said:


> *H*ello folks, first post in here... *T*hrilled to bits indeed! actually I was thinking I don*'*t think I ever used 'mancare il punto' in my entire life and haven*'*t heard it before now... Anyways, I'd just consider that to be some "not to hit the spot" type of expression... *C*ould that be?


Welcome to WRF, then!
Neanch'io ho mai sentito quest'espressione nel quotidiano, in realtà è usata quasi esclusivamente in logica, per indicare errori di ragionamento in cui non viene provata la correttezza della conclusione, tra i quali è compresa la _petitio principii_.
E, sempre nell'ambito della logica, oltre a _*ragionamento circolare*_ di cui sopra, usato in alcuni casi, ho trovato un'altra possibile locuzione alternativa a _petizione di principio_, QUI viene usata *ricorso alla premessa*, e questa ne è la spiegazione:
_La verità della conclusione è provata tornando ai suoi presupposti. Spesso la conclusione è una semplice riformulazione della premessa, in forma appena differente. Si crea così un ‘ragionamento circolare’ che si auto-sostiene. Per verificarlo, occorre una prova esterna al cerchio. __In casi più difficili, la premessa è la conseguenza della conclusione._


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Necsus,

I thought that *pertinente* meant *relevant* and *impertinente* = *irrelevant*

*And, "to beg the question" would be equivalent to "to make a question irrelevant."*


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## Necsus

BenVitale said:


> Necsus,
> I thought that *pertinente* meant *relevant* and *impertinente* = *irrelevant *


No, in modern Italian only _non pertinente_ is the right translation of _irrelevant_. If you say _una domanda impertinente,_ I understand _an impudent question_.


BenVitale said:


> *And, "to beg the question" would be equivalent to "to make a question irrelevant." *


Well, that's one of the possible readings, in my opinion.


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## Einstein

TheCouch86_86 said:


> Anyways, I'd just consider that to be some "not to hit the spot" type of expression... *C*ould that be?


As we said earlier, the expression would be "to miss the point". As you say, this has nothing to do with begging the question.


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## TheCouch86_86

This is what my dictionary has for 'to beg the question':

1. to make you want to know the answer to a particular question: _If she got caught stealing money and she's still there, it begs the question: What would she have to do to get fired?_
2. _formal _to discuss a problem, issue or fact as if it definitely exists, even though it may not: _The whole idea of a Patients' Charter begs the question that the government should be involved in the first place._


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## Paulfromitaly

TheCouch86_86 said:


> This is what my dictionary has for 'to beg the question':
> 
> 1. to make you want to know the answer to a particular question: _If she got caught stealing money and she's still there, it begs the question: What would she have to do to get fired?_
> _._


In this context (and I guess in some others too) I'd definitely say:
"_A questo punto una domanda sorge spontanea/sorge spontaneo domandarsi_".


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## wonderment

BenVitale said:


> Have we reached a consensus as to how to translate it in Italian?
> How about : *Rendere una questione o domanda impertinente o non pertinente*?


Ben, if you're asking for a single translation, I don't know how that's possible when there are at least three different ways the idiom is currently being used in English. 
Let me cite again the entry for ‘beg the question’ in _The Oxford American Dictionary_:


> *1* (of a fact or action) raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question. *2* avoid the question, evade the issue. *3*. assume the truth of an argument or prosposition to be proved, without arguing it.


IMHO, how these definitions match up with translations provided by our friends so far (please feel free to make corrections or additions): 

*1.* _rendere necessario chiedersi se/domandarsi, a questo punto una domanda sorge spontanea/sorge spontaneo domandarsi _(Paul at posts #2 and 33)
*2.* _eludere il punto/la domanda_ (federicoft at post# 9), _mancare il punto_ (WordReference)
*3.* _dare per scontato ciò che andrebbe dimostrato_ (Hazon, Necsus at post #7)

Regardless of one’s opinion on what constitutes the ‘correct’ use of the idiom, the meanings of #1 and 2 are, according to the _The OAD_ (and I'm in complete agreement), “widely accepted in modern standard English,” and modern usage confirms it. 

Ok, now let’s look at some examples of actual usage we've seen, context:


> _Her argument for a second chance was eloquent, but it begged the question: she never explained why she had failed to appear for the original examination._


Usage #2, one could replace the idiom with “she evaded the issue” or “she missed the point” without changing the basic meaning of the sentence. 



> _If she got caught stealing money and she's still there, it begs the question: What would she have to do to get fired?_


Usage #1.



> _The whole idea of a Patients' Charter begs the question that the government should be involved in the first place._


Usage #3


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

Thanks Wonderment for your input.

Someone or a couple of people have mentioned that *to beg the question* is a poor translation of the Latin sentence *Petitio Principii*

But how would you translate *Petitio Principii*?

Is *Petitio Principii* = *requesting first principles*?

The construction of this sentence is odd, puzzling. How did we then come up with the sentence *to beg the question*? Who was responsible of this odd sentence? 

Why do we have the verb *beg* in the first place? And, why do we have the word *question*? What question?

I'm puzzled by the choice of the verb in the sentence, and puzzled by the construction of the sentence. I know what it means in English, and how to use it. But, still, I find it odd.


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## brian

Hi Ben, _petere _in Latin means "to demand, request, require, seek, _*beg*_." _Petitio_ is the noun form derived from _petere_ and so means "a begging (for), a request (for)," etc. _Petitio principii_ then is "a begging (earnest request) for first principles."

BUT we digress.  Discussions of the origins of "to beg the question" or of the Latin _petitio principii_ really belong in other forums like English Only, History and Etymology, Latin, etc. We should stick to current English meanings of "beg the question"--or those meanings for which you want translations--and not speculate about other things that won't affect the Italian.

Thanks.

Brian
Mod


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

You're right Brian. This is not the right forum to discuss the origin of such a sentence. I got curious and I took a tangent here. I'm going to visit the "English Only" forum. Oddly enough, I have never visited this forum.


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## pebblespebbles

Einstein said:


> Ma questo è molto più generico di "beg the question", che è riferito specificamente ad un errore di logica.


.

Oxford: beg the question: to talk about something as if ti were definitely true, even though it might not be:; these assumptions beg the question that children learn languages more easily than adults. 

Dare per scontato= something you already know it's true(even if it's not, but who says "do per scontato qualcosa" believes it's true for sure and everybody has to know; 
quite similar: 
Dare per assunto= something is already true, a scientific discovery, a logical assumption, a fact etc.. which is logically situated at the base of another fact, assumption etc..

Lunghissimo questo thread.
Esempi per la traduzione di "beg the question" con " dare per assunto che" "assumendo che":

Dando per assunto che la terra fosse piatta, tutti pensavano che Cristoforo Colombo sarebbe caduto nel vuoto navigando verso est.
La teoria dei buchi neri da per assunto che esistono universi paralleli. (non so se è vero).
La sociologia da per assunto che tutti gli uomini ricerchino la felicità.
Assumendo che tutto il genere umano sia spinto da un'innata volontà di conservazione si rende evidente che anche la "legge del più forte" ha un fondamento antropologico. 
...etc.. sono solo esempi.
Spero sia utile.
Buon anno


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## Einstein

The general English translation of "dare per scontato" is "take for granted":

He sat down at our table, taking it for granted that he was invited to dinner.
This is obviously not "begging the question", which refers to logical debate and not to everyday practical questions.
The original meaning of "beg the question" would probably be better expressed by "claim (as true) the premise", but this is not very satisfactory!

I see that wonderment continues to consider "evade the question" and "miss the point" as equivalent. It may be just me, but I see a difference: if you "evade the question" it's a dishonest trick, while "missing the point" is a sincere misunderstanding. Any other views?

In general, all forms of dubious reasoning stimulate us to ask questions and I think this is the reason for the extension of the original meaning.


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## sandypas76

Hi everyone,

I have read all your posts and I haven't got an example of petitio principii, but I have instead an example of a sentence where the expression "beg the question" is to be translated.

It's taken from: "EUCLID AND HIS MODERN RIVALS" by Lewis Carroll (I don't even know if there is an official translation of it around, I am translating this for a friend who has to take an exam). This is an actual context of Geometry proving and logical fallacy. One of the characters reads from a book where the author (Wilson) is supposed to have proved Euclid I.32. Then he comments as below.

The sentence goes:

"I'm not well up in 'Wilson': but surely he doesn't *beg the whole question* of parallels in one axiom like this!"

Reference: page 4 of Google book: http://books.google.ie/books?id=2e-...resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

(sorry, I don't know how else to insert the link).

I understood the whole meaning of the idiom, so I suppose I could say:

1) "Non sono molto informato su 'Wilson': ma di certo non puo' *liquidare *l'intera questione delle parallele con un assioma come questo!"

Ovviamente liquidare NON e' la traduzione diretta, potrebbe solo funzionare in un contesto come questo se si volesse adoperare una parola sola. Al posto di liquidare:

2) "non puo' *dare per scontato ciò che andrebbe dimostrato* sull'intera questione delle parallele in un assioma come questo"

3) "non puo' *presupporre *l'intera dimostrazione sulle parallele in un assioma come questo!"

(in this case the word "dimostrazione" is extracted from the context)

4) "non puo' *ragionare in circolo* sulla questione delle parallele con un assioma del genere!" (quoting the suggestion of Necsus on post #28)

4) "non puo' *dimostrare *l'intera questione delle parallele *ricorrendo alle premesse *in un assioma del genere!" (still post #28)


Sono d'accordo che il significato principale di *question = domanda*, ma non e' l'unico e, come ha suggerito qualcuno, secondo me qui *question = questione* sta bene. Non credo che sia un caso che _question _e _questione_ siano cosi' simili. Una questione e' una faccenda che fa porre delle domande, no? Il significato originale latino e' stato traslato in inglese, no?

The following link proves it: http://www.etimo.it/?term=questione

Also see Garzanti online, point 3: http://www.garzantilinguistica.it/it/traduzione/en/lemma/question-enit?dizionario=enit

Avrei delle domande:

1) nel caso di *petitio principii*, come si inserisce questa espressione latina nella mia frase (o in un'altra frase)? Visto che il contesto e' filosofico-formale, potrebbe in realta' andarci bene, considerando che ancora oggi usiamo espressioni latine nel parlato.

2) che significa IMHO?

3) come fate a mettere i link, tipo HERE nella frase qui sotto:


> Alex, in this case maybe the meaning of _question_ could be exactly _questione_, see below that explanation about the etymology.
> And Ben, it maybe can explain too the entry in WRDictionary (to miss the point). From HERE:


Thank you and sorry if I mixed Italian and English.


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## Einstein

> "I'm not well up in 'Wilson': but surely he doesn't *beg the whole question* of parallels in one axiom like this!"
> 
> 1) "Non sono molto informato su 'Wilson': ma di certo non puo' *liquidare *l'intera questione delle parallele con un assioma come questo!"


From a quick reading of the text in the link, they seem to be talking about a tautology. I think your _liquidare_ is right.
Other points:
_one axiom = un solo assioma_.
_like this_ probably doesn't refer to the axiom but to the entire operation and I'd translate it as _in questa maniera_.
_surely_ has a rhetorical use:

*Ma non vorrà liquidare l'intera questione delle parallele in questa maniera, con un solo assioma!?*
Puoi migliorarlo tu; magari _partendo da un solo assioma_ o _in base ad un solo assioma_.


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## sandypas76

Hi,
thanks for your reply. You truly deserve the nickname of Einstein! I was so taken by the translation of "beg the question" that I neglected to analyse the rest of the sentence properly.. Oops! But I would still keep surely, as the whole text is rather rhethorical. I'll see...

Now I am afraid _liquidare _might not fit in the style of the dialogues (doesn't it sound a little informal?) so I would like to keep a word related to the terminology of Logic and Geometry.

"ma non vorra' *presupporre *l'intera dimostrazione sulle parallele in questa maniera, con un solo assioma!"


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## Einstein

When I was registering I tried a series of names; the last rejected name was Albert, so Einstein followed naturally! You could also say lack of imagination...

As for *liquidare/presupporre*, that's for you to decide!


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