# בת (bat)



## cisarro

Hello:

At the Bible, the word *בת* (bat) is always translated as "daugther", even when the verse is talking about a "grandaughter". Could you say me what does *בת* (bat) mean, exactly?

Example, this is a text at Divrei Hayamim Bet (Chapter 11:20):

*כ*  וְאַחֲרֶיהָ לָקַח, *אֶת-מַעֲכָה* *בַּת**-אַבְשָׁלוֹם*; וַתֵּלֶד לוֹ, אֶת-אֲבִיָּה וְאֶת-עַתַּי, וְאֶת-זִיזָא, וְאֶת-שְׁלֹמִית

That verse is always translated as "And after her he took *Maacah the daughter of Absalom*; and she bore him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith". But the only direct daughter of Absalom was Tamar.

Thank you in advance.


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## origumi

בת is daughter.

There are conflicting details in the Bible about מעכה בת אבישלום or מעכה בת אבשלום. Explained nicely in the Hebrew Wikipedia, not so much in the English.

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/מעכה


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## Diadem

בת is often translated as "daughter" but can also mean "grand-daughter" and so forth.

Genesis 36:12
אָהֳלִיבָמָה בַת־עֲנָה בַּת־צִבְעֹון 

If you read the narrative, you'll see that Anah was Aholivamah's father, and Tziv'on was Aholivamah's grand-father.


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## cisarro

Thank you very much for the answers


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## origumi

Diadem said:


> בת is often translated as "daughter" but can also mean "grand-daughter" and so forth.
> 
> Genesis 36:12
> אָהֳלִיבָמָה בַת־עֲנָה בַּת־צִבְעֹון
> 
> If you read the narrative, you'll see that Anah was Aholivamah's father, and Tziv'on was Aholivamah's grand-father.


Aholivama  *daughter* of `ana *daughter* of Tziv`on.


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## Diadem

origumi said:


> Aholivama *daughter* of `ana *daughter* of Tziv`on.



Hi Origumi, care to elaborate? You agree that Aholivama is the grand-daughter of Tziv'on, don't you?


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## origumi

Diadem said:


> Hi Origumi, care to elaborate? You agree that Aholivama is the grand-daughter of Tziv'on, don't you?


The text says that Aholivama is the daughter of `ana and `ana is the daughter of Tziv`on.


וְאֵלֶּה הָיוּ בְּנֵי אָהֳלִיבָמָה בַת עֲנָה בַּת צִבְעוֹן

The sons of Aholivama are grandsons of `ana and grand-grandsons of Tziv`on, and yet בן is son, not grandson, not grand-grandson.


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## Diadem

origumi said:


> The text says that Aholivama is the daughter of `ana and `ana is the daughter of Tziv`on.


I'm afraid that's impossible. 

Ana (עֲנָה) is a male and could not be anyone's daughter.

See Gen. 36:24:

ואלה בני־צבעון ואיה *וענה הוא ענה* אשר *מצא* את־הימם במדבר ברעת*ו* את־החמרים לצבעון אב*יו*


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## origumi

Diadem said:


> I'm afraid that's impossible.


Uh ok, `ana is a man according to most (but not all) opinions. Sorry for answering hastily. Nevertheless, בת is a daughter and not grand daughter (AFAIK, unless someone finds a reference that says otherwise).

The question of ענה בת צבעון is intriguing indeed. In the Samaritan version of the Bible the text says ענה *בן *גבעון and this is agreed among some Jews: [בן] appears as correction to בת in several Bible editions. Another explanation is that אהליבמה was *like *a daughter to צבעון because her mother was צבעון's wife and ענה took her after her צבעון has died, as ייבום (wrote שד"ל). Some insist that ענה was a woman (רבנו תם for example).

You can read here http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_20791_78.pdf an interesting discussion with some farfetched suggestion, for example that צבעון was the biological father of אהליבמה after copulating with ענה's wife, so אהליבמה was daughter of both ענה and צבעון. Another idea is that ענה copulated with his own mother, צבעון's wife, so אהליבמה is ענה's daughter and also a daughter of צבעון's wife thus regarded as a daughter of both.

I don't know if any of this strange proposal is realistic. One thing is common - none suggests that בת means grand daughter (but I could miss some info of course).


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## Diadem

Does משיח בן דוד mean that המשיח is the actual son of דוד, or just a male descendant? At the least, would you agree that בת can simply mean "female descendant" without being one's actual (immediate) daughter?

Also if Rabbeinu Tam wishes to think that Ana is a female, then I'd like to know how he reconciles that belief with Gen. 36:24 --- in which the use of verbs conjugated in the masculine-gender (e.g., מצא), and pronominal suffixes declined in the masculine-gender, certainly contradict his opinion. To say Ana is a female after reading Gen. 36:24 is to admit corruption of the Torah. I don't think Rabbeinu Tam would ever admit that.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Origumi.


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## origumi

When person's genealogy is described in the Bible as X בן/בת of Y, it means son/daughter. Do you have any contradicting example / resource? I described the effort to explain ענה's 'בת' to demonstrates the difficulty, where the possibility of בת = granddaughter is not taken as an option.

In other contexts בן can mean a male child, a descendant, one with certain traits, specify one's age, and apparently some other things (similarly בת for a female), yet this seems out of context for מעכה בת אבשלום or ענה בן/בת צבעון.


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## Diadem

origumi said:


> When person's genealogy is described in the Bible as X בן/בת of Y, it means son/daughter. Do you have any contradicting example / resource?



Although it is debated, some say that Atalya was the grand-daughter of Omri (2 Kings 8:26) (and the actual daughter of Ach'av).


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## origumi

Diadem said:


> Although it is debated, some say that Atalya was the grand-daughter of Omri (2 Kings 8:26) (and the actual daughter of Ach'av).


And then again, the traditional commentary takes for granted that בת means _daughter_ and tries to explain the situation under this assumption. For example מצודת דוד:

"בת עמרי" - ולמעלה (פסוק יח) נאמר שיהורם אביו נשא בת אחאב וידמה שעמרי גדלה ונקראת בתו אף כי בני בנים הם כבנים


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## cisarro

origumi said:


> In other contexts בן can mean a male child, a descendant, one with certain traits, specify one's age, and apparently some other things (similarly בת for a female), yet this seems out of context for מעכה בת אבשלום or ענה בן/בת צבעון.



That's why I made this post. It was not my intention to say that בת = _grandaughter _instead of _daughter_, but if בת could mean other things besides _daughter _according to the context.

Thank you for all the answers


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## JAN SHAR

Why does the vowel suddenly change into i when used with a pronoun? For example, bitti בתי.


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## aavichai

It is actually the opposite0
The I is the original vowel, and it was changed to A is the closed accented syllable.
(Mostly it would turn to Tsere, but sometimes it turns to Patah').


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