# Rhotacism in Latin



## rayloom

Hello

I'm rather interested in the /l/ to /r/ shift in Latin. It apparently existed in Classical Latin for dissimilation. It occurs in several later dialects of Latin in non-dissimalotory contexts. Namely in Romanesco, Sicilian and Occitan. 
However, I've across a work which considers Classical Latin Taberna to be a rhotacism of Tabula. 

Any thoughts on this?
Are there any other such examples in Classical Latin?


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## ahvalj

The etymologies of _tabula_ and _taberna_ are actually far from certain, and the relationships between these two words are even more difficult to prove. De Vaan (_de Vaan M · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of Latin and the other Italic languages: _604 — https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJS1ZxV2dpdnhzUEk) suggests, along with other authors, _taberna<*traberna_ (with the original meaning probably "wooden shed", from _trabs_ "tree-trunk, beam"), which is not an impossible, but definitely a non-standard development (I met an Etruscan derivation for this word as well, cf. also _lacerna, nassiterna_), whereas he derives _tabula_ and the Umbrian _tafle e _"instrument for transporting the sacrificial fire" from Proto-Italic *_taflā/taþlā_ (which is regular) and further from PIE *_tə-dʰlo-_<*_thₐ-dʰlo-_?, which is regular again but leads to an unattested root *_tehₐ_- (the well-known PIE *_tehₐ_- means "to thaw", which obviously doesn't fit).

In principle, the regular Latin development of *_ln_ is _ll_: _collis_ (Lithuanian _kalnas_ "mountain"), whereas _ln _in _alnus, ulna _is of newer origin (<*_alsnos, olVnā_), so one would expect **_tabella_.


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## Villeggiatura

tellus terra
Palilia Parilia
Lemuria Remuria


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## Nino83

rayloom said:


> It occurs in several later dialects of Latin in non-dissimalotory contexts. Namely in Romanesco, *Sicilian and Occitan*.



Sicilian and Occitan? 

_alterum > artro (Romanesco), autru (Sicilian), autre (Occitan)_ 

As far as I know there's no rhotacism from Vulgar Latin to Sicilian or Occitan. 

Portuguese, in semi learned words has it, like _blancum > branco_ or _duplum > dobre_


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## Angelo di fuoco

Rhotacism is quite frequent in both Napoletan and Romanesco, although in different positions, but I cannot see any rhotacism in Sicilian, at least in "autru",


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## Nino83

Now I read that there is some rhotacism in the Southeastern part of Sicily (Monti Iblei, Ragusa province) of the Neapolitan type, but it is absent in the most spoken varieties, i.e Palermo, Messina, Catania, Western and Central Sicilian. 

Romanesco: l > r (artro < altro) 
Neapolitan: d > r (ricere < dicere, rimane < domani)


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## Outsider

Nino83 said:


> Portuguese, in semi learned words has it, like _blancum > branco_ or _duplum > dobre_


Not just in semi-learned words. Rhotacism was fairly common in early Portuguese. You have examples like _praça_ vs. Sp. _plaza, _or _escravo _vs. Sp. _esclavo_.
As a matter of fact, I'd say that _branco_ itself is early, not learned Portuguese, as is _dobro_ (_dobre_ is unfamiliar to me, but it may have been an archaic variant). In learned words there is usually no rhotacism.


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## rayloom

Villeggiatura said:


> tellus terra
> Palilia Parilia
> Lemuria Remuria



Interesting list.
Etymological dictionaries give different PIE roots for tellus and terra.
As for Parilia, can the rhotacism be considered dissimilatory?
As for Lemuria coming from Remuria, I see it's disputed.



Nino83 said:


> Sicilian and Occitan?



In Occitan, the rhotacism seems phonetic but with a preservation of the /l/ in writing.
See this thesis. Page 127 and onwards. I'm not familiar with Occitan, but it apparently occurs in most varieties of Occitan. 
Also this is an article on the rhotacism in an Alpine variety of Occitan. It proposes a Ligurian substratum for the phenomenon.


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## Nino83

rayloom said:


> In Occitan, the rhotacism seems phonetic but with a preservation of the /l/ in writing.
> See this thesis. Page 127 and onwards. I'm not familiar with Occitan, but it apparently occurs in most varieties of Occitan.
> Also this is an article on the rhotacism in an Alpine variety of Occitan. It proposes a Ligurian substratum for the phenomenon.



"dans certaines variétés d’occitan alpin, et aussi en provençal central et maritime".

Yes, Ligurian had rhotacism but this secondary /r/ is now deleted in intervocalic position:



> The dialects of the central and eastern Ligurian coast show a complete fall of secondary weak [r], e.g. Gen. aa (< *ara) 'ala’, teia 'tela', muí 'mulino’, fiá 'filare', sköa 'scuola', piá 'pelare’, skaa 'scala', dú 'dolore', kú (< *kurur) 'colore', gua 'gola', sažu 'salice’, kandeia 'candela', kasöa 'cazzuola', bansa 'balanza', küata 'culatta’, kamá 'calamaio', kumbi 'colombino'; barí 'barile', kaná 'canale', sé 'cielo', arví 'aprile', ma 'male'.



Hull, The Linguistic Unity of Northern Italy and Rhaetia

There was rhotacism also in Milanese, but it declined and /l/ was restored in most words.



Outsider said:


> Not just in semi-learned words. Rhotacism was fairly common in early Portuguese. You have examples like _praça_ vs. Sp. _plaza, _or _escravo _vs. Sp. _esclavo_.
> As a matter of fact, I'd say that _branco_ itself is early, not learned Portuguese, as is _dobro_ (_dobre_ is unfamiliar to me, but it may have been an archaic variant). In learned words there is usually no rhotacism.



Olá, Outsider.

As far as I know, in non learned words in Portuguese the change was /pl/ > /ʃ/ like in chuva < pluvia, chão < plano, while the change /pl/ > /pr/ praça < platea or prato < platto is considered semi-learned.


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## Angelo di fuoco

I'm reading "Lo cunto de li cunti" now and I've found the verb _leprecare_. It's a limit case, since the corresponding Italian word is replicare, so it's metathesis rather than rhotacism.


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## aefrizzo

Nino83 said:


> ..... but it is absent in the most spoken varieties, i.e Palermo, Messina, Catania, Western and Central Sicilian.
> Neapolitan: d > r (ricere < dicere, rimane < domani)


*Hello, Nino*.
If this is rhotacism, be sure it occurs* very commonly* in the spoken Sicilian of Palermo. Besides your "neapolitan" examples, almost identical here:
ririri= ridere (to laugh)
rari= dare (to give)
cauru= caldo (warm)
rinari= denari (money)  and so on.
Admittedly, in each of these words, the sound of terminal vowel is to me rather embarassing to identify. But after your lesson (no irony) on the schwa, I am unable to use the right sign.  
Did rhotacism travel (when?) along with the already mentioned diphtongization?

*Hi, Angelo.*
My compliments, you are very brave with Basile, I confess to have never had a try.
BTW,_ autru_ is the regular translation from italian into Standard Sicilian. At times I wonder, nevertheless, if the latter really exists. Thus, if you happen to travel around in Sicily don't be shocked to hear also_ atru, attru, antru_


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## Angelo di fuoco

Thanks. Fortunately, there's a glossary at the end. Otherwise I'd have been lost after a few sentences. And even so, having to look up a word every two lines or so slows the speed of reading down a lot. Actually, I read only the three novels on which Garrone based "The Tale of Tales", so it wasn't that much reading stuff (although I'd like to continue).

I hope I'll get one day to see Sicily, it's one of my biggest dreams in terms of travelling.


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## Nino83

Ciao aefrizzo 
In Messina all these words have an interocalic -d-. The only word I know is _il 'dito > u 'irïtu/'iritu_ (this _ï_ is what you call schwa, a centralized _i_ which, in _messinese_ and other Sicilian provinces, you don't find in final unstressed position, only in intertornic position, for example we say _rïpigghiàri, rïcuddàri_).

Rohlfs in _Grammatica storica della lingua italiana e dei suoi dialetti_, §216, page 295, _-d- intervocalica_, says:



> In altre zone della Sicilia (a occidente, a nord e a sud-est), in alcune località della Calabria, in molti dialetti della Lucania e soprattutto in Campania, -ð- ha proceduto oltre fino a -r-



so, in Messina, Catania, Enna, Caltanissetta and Agrigento, there is no rhotacism (while the free dipthongation in both open and closed syllables is present only in Palermo but not in Trapani, Ragusa and Siracusa).

Probably Palermo was influenced by Neapolitan and Spanish, about diphthongs, while _messinese_ and _catanese_ are the most conservative varieties, becuase the Greek influence, i.e bilingualism, was stronger than in Palermo.*

Ciao, Angelo, I can only recommend to come in Sicily. 
Sicilian language is not so different from standard Italian (every /é/ to /i/ and every /ó/ to /u/, and add some consonantic assimilation).
Languages like _bolognese, barese, piemontese, lombardo_ are more different (and then, more difficult), if one knows only standard Italian.

*The period is between 535 and 838, the Byzantine period.


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## danielstan

Romanian language with all its dialects spoken in the Balkan Peninsula (Daco-Romanian = the Romanian proper - spoken in Romania and Rep. Moldova, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian) have the distinctive phonetic rule:

the rhotacism of intervocalic /L/ from Latin (Latin intervocalic /L/ > Romanian intervocalic /R/)

E.g. from Romanian:
_scala _(lat.) > _scară _(rom.)  ("ladder", "stair")
_dolorem _(lat. accusative) > _durere _(rom.) ("pain")
_mola _(lat.) > _moară _(rom.) ("mill")

The intervocalic double /LL/ from Latin has passed to intervocalic single /L/ in Romanian.
The Latin non-intervocalic /L/ has remain as such in Romanian.


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## berndf

*Moderator note: This thread is about rhotacism in Latin and not in modern Romance languages. Comparing the situations in Latin and in modern Romance is fine but much of the discussion has now drifted to be exclusively about modern Romance and that is off-topic.*


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