# First draft, second draft, etc.



## anthox

Cześć wszystkim,

Having trouble finding the most natural Polish equivalents for these terms, which we tend to use in the context of essays/writing projects.

For example, when preparing a document, the *first draft *is a rough version of the essay. It may be a complete document, but it has to be looked over for grammar, word choice, and clarity of phrasing, and parts may be removed/rewritten/added. In the US, we refer to this correction as *revision *or *revising* the draft. The revision process may also involve someone else, for example a teacher, reviewing the document and suggesting corrections. The result is usually termed the *final draft*, meaning it is the complete version of the essay. 

I've found different terms for 'first draft' - pierwszy projekt, pierwszy szkic, wstępna wersja, etc. Which is most natural in this context? 

Revision = rewizja? 

Final draft = ostateczny projekt? 

Dziękuję bardzo.


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## zaffy

I would say these.
"Praca na brudno." (Some say "Brudnopis", I don't.)
"Sprawdzić pracę na brudno." (Sprawdzić brudnopis)
"Wersja końcowa/ostateczna."


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## grassy

anthox said:


> wstępna wersja





zaffy said:


> "Wersja końcowa/ostateczna."





anthox said:


> Revision = rewizja?


Nie, ale chyba nie mamy na to powszechnie używanego rzeczownika. Mówimy czasem "Przesyłam wersję do sprawdzenia/sczytania".

"Praca na brudno" kojarzy mi się z czymś "at a very early stage" i kontekstem szkolnym, ale w innych kontekstach to określenie też jest chyba używane.


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## Ben Jamin

Praca "na brudno" w klasycznym wydaniu to pierwszy szkic, pisany często ołówkiem (aby łatwiej było poprawiać), na podlejszym papierze, albo w zeszycie, zawierający poprawki i skreślenia, uwagi, itp. Taką pracę przepisywało się na czysto piórem wiecznym albo na maszynie (jak kto miał), na dobrym papierze. W tej formie oddawało się prace szkolne, wysyłało listy, itp.
Dziś każdy tekst pisany na komputerze można poprawiać wiele razy, i różnica się zatraca, więc i potrzeba używania tych terminów zanika.


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## Commando

first draft
If I start to compose an email and suddenly close the browser I am not worried. Google Gmail remembers what I wrote in a folder called "wersje robocze" (plural).

I would say wersja robocza or wstępna wersja.

Wersja na brudno is about a composition in school!

Revision = rewizja?
According to Polish dictionary you are right. But I would never say that about an essay. I have just opened a few books from my bookshelf. There are lines like:

autor : Jan Kowalski (author)
Redakcja i korekta: Robert Nowak

redakcja = editing
Someone edits a book before publishing. It is exclusively about books.

The word you are looking for is:
korekta = correction? = revision = the process of changing a document, book, etc. in order to improve it, correct mistakes...

PS.
Rewizja expresses the similar idea but we say "rewizja systemu" and "korekta tekstu".


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## karaluszek

Polecam grupę Redaktorzy, korektorzy, edytorzy – łączcie się! na Fejsie - tam są specjaliści od redakcji tekstów.
IMHO w kontekście pracy pisemnej:
*first draft* - szkic, brudnopis, wersja robocza
*revision *- korekta, adiustacja
*final draft* - wersja ostateczna


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## jasio

anthox said:


> Having trouble finding the most natural Polish equivalents for these terms, which we tend to use in the context of essays/writing projects.


What is the context? Are you looking for a formal terminology used in certain industries, or common terms?


anthox said:


> The result is usually termed the *final draft*, meaning it is the complete version of the essay.





karaluszek said:


> *final draft* - wersja ostateczna


To me if something is final, it's not a draft any more.  
I use the term "final draft" (or "final candidate" - as in software development) to refer to the revision of the text which is ready for sign off / approval, etc. Once the text is approved, it becomes simply 'final'. I have an impression that the Polish terminology is a bit ambiguous with this respect, as "wersja ostateczna" can be used in both situations. And in other as well: if my boss asks me to send him "wersja ostateczna", he usually refers to the version *I think* is final, but he's going to review it yet.



Commando said:


> first draft
> If I start to compose an email and suddenly close the browser I am not worried. Google Gmail remembers what I wrote in a folder called "wersje robocze" (plural).
> 
> I would say wersja robocza or wstępna wersja.


To me "wersja wstępna" or "szkic" is either the first draft or an early draft - when virtually everything in the text is still liquid and I only have a vague idea of what it eventually is going to look like. "Wersja robocza" is probably the widest term because it refers to everything which is not final yet. Probably this is the reason Google decided on using it.

But if I'm up to brevity rather than purity, I often say simply 'draft'.


Commando said:


> Revision = rewizja?
> According to Polish dictionary you are right. But I would never say that about an essay. I have just opened a few books from my bookshelf. There are lines like:


I personally dislike this term even, if dictionaries approve it. I strongly prefer "wersja". 


Commando said:


> redakcja = editing
> Someone edits a book before publishing. It is exclusively about books.


No, it's not. 
"Redakcja", "redagować" (as well as "editing") is used broadly in the context of the text processing, not only in book publishing, but also in journalism, marketing, PR, etc.  Albeit I have an impression that the word is being more and more often replaced by "edytować".



Commando said:


> The word you are looking for is:
> korekta = correction? = revision = the process of changing a document, book, etc. in order to improve it, correct mistakes...


I'd say "korekta" = "proof reading". 
And in either language it refers to the stage when you do not change anything in the merit any more, but focus solely on typos, spelling and punctuation - which have been overlooked earlier. If a proof reader corrects syntax errors (which happens sometimes) or logical errors (which should not ever happen) it's a sign that the editor might not have done their job correctly. In fact, a proof reader does not even have to fully understand the text.

On the other hand, 'improve the text', and even 'correct mistakes' sound quite broad, and may be misleading - as they can refer to editing as well. To make a long story short, if a mistake is "Gerralt" instead of the intended "Geralt", it's probably a proof-reading (albeit if you see it during editing, you should fix it anyway), while if a mistake is that he's carying a saber instead of a sword or is with Triss while he was supposed to be meeting Yennefer according to the story logic, it's definitely editing - even, if done by the author themselves. And in either case it's "correcting mistakes".



karaluszek said:


> *revision *- korekta, adiustacja


A bit misleading in my opinion. 
Revision is quite broad and may refer to revising the work at any stage.
What "korekta" is, I've already explained.
Adiustacja refers specifically to laying out the text on the page - like margins, line and paragraph spacing, font sizes, bullets, justification, text headers, page headers and footers ("pagina górna" and "pagina dolna" respectively - NOT "główka" i "stopka") etc.


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## Commando

jasio said:


> No, it's not.



Your teacher doesn't perform "redakcja". I wanted to differentiate between redakcja and korekta.


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## zaffy

jasio said:


> No, it's not.
> "Redakcja", "redagować" (as well as "editing") is used broadly in the context of the text processing, not only in book publishing, but also in journalism, marketing, PR, etc. Albeit I have an impression that the word is being more and more often replaced by "edytować".


I am not happy with "redakcja". 'Edycja' and 'edytowanie' indeed sound good.


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## karaluszek

jasio said:


> A bit misleading in my opinion.
> Revision is quite broad and may refer to revising the work at any stage.
> What "korekta" is, I've already explained.
> Adiustacja refers specifically to laying out the text on the page - like margins, line and paragraph spacing, font sizes, bullets, justification, text headers, page headers and footers ("pagina górna" and "pagina dolna" respectively - NOT "główka" i "stopka") etc.


Adiustacja może być dwojaka (za PWN-Oxford):
(stylistyczna, ortograficzna) editing, copy-editing;
(graficzna) layout
Mnie chodziło o pierwsze znaczenie, tak też go używa moja adiustatorka w biurze tłumaczeń, Ty uznałeś, że "adiustacja" odnosi się tylko do formy graficznej.
Revision nie ma dokładnego polskiego odpowiednika, dlatego podałem dwa, które moim zdaniem są najlepsze w tym kontekście.


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## jasio

Commando said:


> Your teacher doesn't perform "redakcja". I wanted to differentiate between redakcja and korekta.


Did you read my entire comment, or just the first phrase? 
I expected that it was obvious from my comment that I referred to the phrase "It is exclusively about books". Anything else was only to avoid setting up a strawman of the phrase taken out of the original context. 

And if you wanted to differentiate between editing and proof-reading, my teachers did not do either of them. Typically they pointed out what was wrong, but editing is something more than that. Except when correcting dictations, because it was closer to the proof-reading.


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## jasio

zaffy said:


> I am not happy with "redakcja". 'Edycja' and 'edytowanie' indeed sound good.


Only because you're used to using the word in this particular meaning. 

But in fact it's a very similar case to "application" - which was loaned as "aplikacja", although the word "aplikacja" originally meant something completely different, and it was a perfect example of a false friend. "Edycja" is a very similar case, and also a false friend: originally it meant "publishing", ie. all activities aiming at printing the work in many copies (edycja – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny), NOT only editing. That's why typically you refer to a journalist as "redaktor", not "edytor" (which is an honorable term because "editor" is someone higher in the professional hierarchy than "reporter"). Unfortunately, the PC terminology was coined by junior persons, who knew rather little (if anything at all) about proper terminology in publishing, printing, not even about information technology itself. In a sense, it was reinventing the wheel.

In fact, Russian is much more consistent with this respect than Polish, and text editor was translated as _редактор текста_, which is perfectly in line with the original meaning of both "editor" and "redaktor".


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## jasio

zaffy said:


> I am not happy with "redakcja". 'Edycja' and 'edytowanie' indeed sound good.





jasio said:


> Only because you're used to using the word in this particular meaning.


I have an afterthought that "redakcja" and "edycja" may now have slightly different scopes. "Zredaguj ten tekst", "przeredaguj ten tekst" suggest quite significant changes, perhaps even turning it upside-down and inside-out - and there are no parallel words coming from "edytować", as far as I am aware. On the other hand "wyedytuj ten tekst", "edytuj ten tekst" seem to suggest rather minor changes. Not that narrow as proof-reading, but still.


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## Ben Jamin

Commando said:


> first draft
> If I start to compose an email and suddenly close the browser I am not worried. Google Gmail remembers what I wrote in a folder called "wersje robocze" (plural).
> 
> I would say wersja robocza or wstępna wersja.
> 
> Wersja na brudno is about a composition in school!
> 
> Revision = rewizja?
> According to Polish dictionary you are right. But I would never say that about an essay. I have just opened a few books from my bookshelf. There are lines like:
> 
> autor : Jan Kowalski (author)
> Redakcja i korekta: Robert Nowak
> 
> redakcja = editing
> Someone edits a book before publishing. It is exclusively about books.
> 
> The word you are looking for is:
> korekta = correction? = revision = the process of changing a document, book, etc. in order to improve it, correct mistakes...
> 
> PS.
> Rewizja expresses the similar idea but we say "rewizja systemu" and "korekta tekstu".


Korekta tekstu dotyczy generalnie ortografii, gramatyki i stylu. Rewizja natomiast ma na uwadze treść merytoryczną. Ja bym tu użył zwrotu "wersja poprawiona/zmieniona". Słowo "rewizja" zarezerwowałbym do wyrażenia "rewizja założeń".


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## karaluszek

jasio said:


> I have an afterthought that "redakcja" and "edycja" may now have slightly different scopes. "Zredaguj ten tekst", "przeredaguj ten tekst" suggest quite significant changes, perhaps even turning it upside-down and inside-out - and there are no parallel words coming from "edytować", as far as I am aware. On the other hand "wyedytuj ten tekst", "edytuj ten tekst" seem to suggest rather minor changes. Not that narrow as proof-reading, but still.


Z definicji podanych na stronie PWN wynika coś przeciwnego. Edytowanie to pisanie i redagowanie, a więc – jak rozumiem – ma szerszy zakres niż samo redagowanie (w pierwszym znaczeniu):

*redagować*
1. «opracowywać tekst pod względem merytorycznym i stylistycznym, przygotowując go do druku»
2. «kierować redakcją pisma, dzieła zbiorowego itp., przyjmując odpowiedzialność za jego treść i formę»

*zredagować*
1. «opracować treściowo i stylistycznie jakiś tekst»
2. «sprawdzić i poprawić tekst, przygotowując go do druku»

*edytować* «pisać i *redagować* tekst w programie komputerowym»

Pytanie o różnice między edycją i redakcją zadałem osobom zawodowo zajmującym się opracowywaniem tekstów (na grupie Redaktorzy, korektorzy, edytorzy – łączcie się!). Okazuje się, że nie ma konsensusu. Jedni uważają tak jak Ty, że edycja to drobne poprawki, a inni przeciwnie – że to ogół prac nad tekstem (czyli tak, jak podaje PWN). Przeważają jednak opinie, że edycja to szersze pojęcie. Jakąś wskazówką jest kierunek studiów o nazwie "edytorstwo", który obejmuje całość prac związanych z wydaniem publikacji (w tym redakcję). Definicja w Encyklopedii PWN:

*edytorstwo* [łac.], zespół czynności związanych z opracowaniem i wydaniem tekstów drukiem; — prace programowe, organizacyjne, redakcyjne, adiustacja, a także opracowanie graficznej formy książki i współdziałanie w tym zakresie z drukarnią;


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## jasio

Since the original question had been asked in English, it would only be polite to continue in this language, so that the OP can follow the thread.



karaluszek said:


> edytować «pisać i redagować tekst w programie komputerowym»


In this situation you would have to decide, what are actual differences between "writing" and "editing". IMHO this difference is blurred nowadays when compared to the more classical ways of working with texts.  


karaluszek said:


> Jedni uważają tak jak Ty, że edycja to drobne poprawki


Good to hear, thank you.


karaluszek said:


> Przeważają jednak opinie, że edycja to szersze pojęcie. Jakąś wskazówką jest kierunek studiów o nazwie "edytorstwo", który obejmuje całość prac związanych z wydaniem publikacji (w tym redakcję). Definicja w Encyklopedii PWN:
> 
> *edytorstwo* [łac.], zespół czynności związanych z opracowaniem i wydaniem tekstów drukiem; — prace programowe, organizacyjne, redakcyjne, adiustacja, a także opracowanie graficznej formy książki i współdziałanie w tym zakresie z drukarnią;


I'd say that there is a degree of overlap between two quite distinct meanings of the word "edytować":

traditional, broader meaning, which you quoted - and so, for the record, did I in one of my earlier comments:



jasio said:


> "Edycja" is a very similar case, and also a false friend: originally it meant "publishing", ie. all activities aiming at printing the work in many copies (edycja – Wikisłownik, wolny słownik wielojęzyczny), NOT only editing.



a new one, "*edytować* «(pisać i) *redagować* tekst w programie komputerowym»"
When discussing which word I would use to what scope of corrections, it should be obvious, that I referred only to the latter, more specific definition. I perceive "redagować" as more serious and more professional word, while "edytować" - to me sounds somewhat lighter.  

However judging by the arguments which you quoted, your authoritative sources apparently considered the first, original meaning which is NOT what I meant even for a second. So apparently there is a misunderstanding, which leads to the question, what was the actual question you asked? Because quality of responses you can get very much depends on how precisely you form your question.



karaluszek said:


> Pytanie o różnice między edycją i redakcją zadałem osobom zawodowo zajmującym się opracowywaniem tekstów


Your demand for a professional opinion is quite understandable and in fact praiseworthy. However I dare to say that in this specific topic my own opinions are not quite ungrounded. I've been in IT publishing business since late 80s and I observed proliferation of quite unnecessary English terminology live. Being at the time at my twenties and entirely disregarding the old-fashioned world, I even cannot exclude that I had myself  contributed to the mess we're now discussing.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> Since the original question had been asked in English, it would only be polite to continue in this language, so that the OP can follow the thread.
> 
> 
> In this situation you would have to decide, what are actual differences between "writing" and "editing". IMHO this difference is blurred nowadays when compared to the more classical ways of working with texts.
> 
> Good to hear, thank you.
> 
> I'd say that there is a degree of overlap between two quite distinct meanings of the word "edytować":
> 
> traditional, broader meaning, which you quoted - and so, for the record, did I in one of my earlier comments:
> 
> 
> a new one, "*edytować* «(pisać i) *redagować* tekst w programie komputerowym»"
> When discussing which word I would use to what scope of corrections, it should be obvious, that I referred only to the latter, more specific definition. I perceive "redagować" as more serious and more professional word, while "edytować" - to me sounds somewhat lighter.
> 
> However judging by the arguments which you quoted, your authoritative sources apparently considered the first, original meaning which is NOT what I meant even for a second. So apparently there is a misunderstanding, which leads to the question, what was the actual question you asked? Because quality of responses you can get very much depends on how precisely you form your question.
> 
> 
> Your demand for a professional opinion is quite understandable and in fact praiseworthy. However I dare to say that in this specific topic my own opinions are not quite ungrounded. I've been in IT publishing business since late 80s and I observed proliferation of quite unnecessary English terminology live. Being at the time at my twenties and entirely disregarding the old-fashioned world, I even cannot exclude that I had myself  contributed to the mess we're now discussing.


Od jak dawna używa  się słowa "edytować"? Podejrzewam, że to jedna z niedawnych niepotrzebnych pożyczek z angielskiego.
How long has "edytować" been used? I suspect that it is one of recent unnecessary loans from English.


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> Od jak dawna używa  się słowa "edytować"? Podejrzewam, że to jedna z niedawnych niepotrzebnych pożyczek z angielskiego.
> How long has "edytować" been used? I suspect that it is one of recent unnecessary loans from English.


It depends on what specifically do you mean as 'recent'. ;-)

My educated guess is that in the meaning related to the text editing, it's been used since approximately mid-80ties. I'm not sure if the word was used by educated computer professionals of the period, but it was definitely used by home computer freaks - a narrow and relatively closed group at the time. It was popularised in late 80s and 90s, by emerging computer press like Bajtek, Komputer, PCkurier, Enter, etc, along with the growing popularity of PCs, especially in 90s.


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## karaluszek

jasio said:


> Since the original question had been asked in English, it would only be polite to continue in this language, so that the OP can follow the thread.


Jasiu, nie przesadzajmy. Anthox dobrze zna nasz język – pisze po polsku komentarze na forum, zadaje po polsku pytania, ba! tłumaczy nawet opowiadania Grabińskiego, a to wyższa szkoła jazdy. Gdyby wątek rozpoczęła osoba nieznająca polskiego, pisałbym tylko po angielsku. But okay, I will try to write in English .


jasio said:


> However judging by the arguments which you quoted, your authoritative sources apparently considered the first, original meaning which is NOT what I meant even for a second. So apparently there is a misunderstanding, which leads to the question, what was the actual question you asked? Because quality of responses you can get very much depends on how precisely you form your question.


I asked the question:


> Słuchajcie, czym dokładnie różni się edytowanie od redagowania tekstu? Słownik PWN podaje takie definicje:
> *redagować*
> 1. «opracowywać tekst pod względem merytorycznym i stylistycznym, przygotowując go do druku»
> 2. «kierować redakcją pisma, dzieła zbiorowego itp., przyjmując odpowiedzialność za jego treść i formę»
> 
> *edytować* «pisać i redagować tekst w programie komputerowym»
> 
> Czy to znaczy, że edytowanie ma szerszy zakres - obejmuje zarówno tworzenie, jak i redagowanie tekstu? Jak wyjaśnić różnice laikowi?


The answers were generally as follows:

_edytować_ is to make minor corrections - one comment + 3 likes
_edytować_ is much broader than _redagować_ - two comments + 6 likes



jasio said:


> Your demand for a professional opinion is quite understandable and in fact praiseworthy. However I dare to say that in this specific topic my own opinions are not quite ungrounded. I've been in IT publishing business since late 80s and I observed proliferation of quite unnecessary English terminology live. Being at the time at my twenties and entirely disregarding the old-fashioned world, I even cannot exclude that I had myself contributed to the mess we're now discussing.


I didn't know you are a pro. The differences were unclear to me, so I looked up the definitions in the dictionary and asked the question to people who should know the answer. I occasionally program in Perl and JS, so I associate _edytować_ primarily with writing the code. But I think that's a very special use of the word.


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