# Urdu: aasif or aasaf?



## Qureshpor

Forum members will know that "Asif" is quite a common name. It is spelt آصف . However, it seems that it should be pronounced as "aasaf". Do we pronounce it as "aasif" for the same reason that "vaa-pas" is often pronounced as "vaapis"? The possible reason that I can think of is that we have the faa3il pattern of words in mind and are attempting to fit these words into this pattern! Your thoughts please.


----------



## Alfaaz

Interesting question! Although I'm not sure of the correct pronunciation, I heard that Aasif/Aasaf means "sorry" in Arabic, as in "He's sorry for what she did" or "I am sorry"...
Is this true? (Sorry for going kind of off-topic!)
Edit: one dictionary gives it as aasaf; (it seems kind of strange, as aasaf seemed to be more of the Punjabi pronunciation, judging from what is heard in media...like kaashif to kaashaf, Haazir to Haazar, etc. It seems it is being correctly pronounced in Punjabi then (if indeed the correct pronunciation is aasaf)!)


----------



## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> Interesting question! Although I'm not sure of the correct pronunciation, I heard that Aasif/Aasaf means "sorry" in Arabic, as in "He's sorry for what she did" or "I am sorry"...
> Is this true? (Sorry for going kind of off-topic!)



That word is with a "siin".


----------



## Alfaaz

> That word is with a "siin".


OK, thanks! Just edited my post above...


----------



## lcfatima

Wow, vaapis is really vaapas? AaSif (usually spelled Asif) is such a common male given name in many Indo-Pak Muslim communities. I have never heard it as AaSaf. Platts says AaSaf is a caper tree. Honestly, if I had heard someone say Aasaf before seeing this thread I would have thought it a Punjabicism like Alfaaz says...AaSaf from Paakastaan.


----------



## Alfaaz

> Wow, vaapis is really vaapas? AaSif (usually spelled Asif) is such a common male given name in many Indo-Pak Muslim communities. I have never heard it as AaSaf. Platts says AaSaf is a caper tree. Honestly, if I had heard someone say Aasaf before seeing this thread I would have thought it a Punjabicism like Alfaaz says...AaSaf from Paakastaan.


واپس seems to mostly be pronounced correctly as waapas (at least in _most_ Urdu media...); Aasaf is from the I'braani language and was the name of Hadhrat Sulemaan's wazeer according to this entry. 

 There are some words that sometimes are mispronounced by people with a zair, instead of the correct zabar. This could be due to the fact that most Urdu words with a zair are converted to zabars in Punjabi.....so some people might assume it to be a Punjabi pronunciation and use a zair where in fact even in Urdu there is a zabar. 

Another example could be the word: اخلاق which is mispronounced by some as ikhlaaq, while the correct (Arabic/Urdu) pronunciation is akhlaaq.


----------



## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> Do we pronounce it as "aasif" for the same reason that "vaa-pas" is often pronounced as "vaapis"? The possible reason that I can think of is that we have the faa3il pattern of words in mind and are attempting to fit these words into this pattern! Your thoughts please.


I don't know. It may be different from _waapis_ and _baahir_ because you also get to hear the correct _waapas_ and _baahar_ quite a bit. On the other hand, I don't think I have ever heard _aasaf.
_
I have read the name Asaf-ud-daulah a couple of times in English written with an "a", but I have never heard it pronounced. Has anyone heard it in a Urdu history documentary?

I think it is possible that someone named آصف will be reluctant to go about calling himself _aasaf_ even if he knows it is the correct pronunciation..


----------



## Alfaaz

> On the other hand, I don't think I have ever heard _aasaf._


Cannot exactly remember, but (probably) in a religious program, a person or two used the pronunciation aasaf....but they had exceptionally illustrious Urdu (the kind that pronounce qaafs correctly and even in normal conversations all their Haas/Haays, a'iyns, seens/Sauds, even zaals/dhaals like one would during recitation of the Quraan or speaking Arabic!) So they probably wouldn't really count as examples....


> Has anyone heard it in a Urdu history documentary?


It certainly isn't an Urdu documentary, but they seem to be saying aasaf (listen from 1:56-2:00)
Youtube: إنتخاب زعيم حزب الشعب آصف علي زرداري رئيسا جديدا لباكستان


----------



## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> Wow, vaapis is really vaapas? AaSif (usually spelled Asif) is such a common male given name in many Indo-Pak Muslim communities. I have never heard it as AaSaf. Platts says AaSaf is a caper tree. Honestly, if I had heard someone say Aasaf before seeing this thread I would have thought it a Punjabicism like Alfaaz says...AaSaf from Paakastaan.



Yes, the word is "vaa-pas" (again-back/return). And it is Asaf (aasaf) and not Asif as we are all used to hearing and I certainly never thought about saying Asaf. Time to have a few discreet words with your Lakhnavii mother-in-law! Only of course if she pronounces these words as "vaapis" and "Asif". Let her know that some "Paakastaanii" (and to make matters worse, a Punjabi Paakastaanii) has informed you of this!

Although I could listen to Dilip Kumar's Urdu all day long, he too uses "baahir" and "vaapis". 

Hopefully, people's perceptions about Punjabi people's (negative) influence on Urdu will begin to change, at least on this forum.


----------



## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Forum members will know that "Asif" is quite a common name. It is spelt آصف . However, it seems that it should be pronounced as "aasaf". Do we pronounce it as "aasif" for the same reason that "vaa-pas" is often pronounced as "vaapis"?


 QP Sb, I heard many different variations of this!

*آصف* *aaSaf *and* aaSif* both pronunciations have been used. _But in a way both are wrong because the original is actually from Hebrew and it is_:

*אסף* *aSaph* <-Biblical name -> The ף *pe* at the end is pronounced *f* , hence the letter ف faa in Arabic.

*2**aSaf* *أصف* in Classical Arab [[cf. *אסף* *aSaph* (*aSaf*), Hebrew]] = grand vizier (after the _waziir_ of _HaDhrate-e-sulaimaan_). It initially was used only as a title. In Urdu it is written as _*asaf*_ اصف , i.e. no initial hamzah, otherwise the same as in Arabic.

In Heberew, *אסף* *aSaph* (*aSaf*) is a proper name and the letters in it are: א = aleph, ס = Samec and the final ף = pe with an f sound and although in Arabic it was originally just a title and also used as part of a title in Persian and Urdu, but at some point  *aSaf* -> *aaSif*  shift occurred and *aaSif* is now used as a proper name throughout South Asia at least. 
v





QURESHPOR said:


> The possible reason that I can think of is  that we have the faa3il pattern of words in mind and are attempting to  fit these words into this pattern! Your thoughts please.


 This might well be a reason although there happens to be no Arabic verb with _a-S-f_ root. However the a-s-f root exists (below) and some may have mistakenly extrapolated one from the other to make an _ism-e-faa3il _-> _*aaSif*_. 

Interestingly,  *2aSaf* *أ**صف* in Arabic is also for caper tree(!) as Fatima mentioned.

Many people called *אסף asaph* = _*asaf *_(always written as Asaph in English!) found in the Old Testament. One of them seems to be a poet of the Levites of the time of King David (for us Prophet David = = نبى داوود _nabii daauud / daawuud_)  :

_"... And they ministered before the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the Lord in Jerusalem: and then they waited on their office according to their order... And his brother *Asaph*, who stood on his right hand, even *Asaph* the son of Berachiah, the son of Shmea."_ --1 Chronicles 6, 31-39 (Hebrew version: 1 Chronicles 6, 16-24)

Just to add to the link AT Sb above gave for *Asaf*-udu-Daulah (and the Urdu given as *آصف* _*aaSaf *_or _*aaSif*_ is wrong, should be *اصف aSaf*) here is another:

Qamar-ud-din Khan *Asaf* Jah 

 It is *asaf*, *asaf jaah* and *asaf jaahii* but I’ve also heard *aasif jaah* and *aasif jaahii* used in speech. But the former is the correct form.

[BTW, *آسف* *aasif* =  = I'm sorry, as in *2anaa aasif  *أنا آسف = I am sorry! From the verb *asifa *= to regret, be sorry etc.; *asaf* (as opposed to *aSaf*) = grief, sorrow, regret!!]

... and yes it is _*waapas*_ (_not_ _*waapis*_) and _*baahar*_ (_not_ _*baahir*_). The only place where a *baahir*-_related_ term appears is discussed in the _baahar / baahir thread._


----------



## Alfaaz

> Hopefully, people's perceptions about Punjabi people's (negative) influence on Urdu will begin to change, at least on this forum.


Aanaa aasif  if I have said anything wrong in my comments above. I was just trying to explain a possible reason why some might mispronounce words (thinking that the actual correct pronunciation is a wrong Punjabi influence...); 
The main point is that everyone's contribution (regardless of linguistic, religious, national, racial, cultural background) to knowledge and learning is valued and equally appreciated! 


> [BTW, *آسف* *aasif* = = I'm sorry, as in *2anaa aasif *أنا آسف = I am sorry! From the verb *asifa *= to regret, be sorry etc.; *asaf* (as opposed to *aSaf*) = grief, sorrow, regret!!]


Thanks for the comprehensive informative post Faylasoof SaaHib! Probably a silly question: So could "_anaa aasif_" be used in Urdu sometimes, when and where other phrases are somewhat wordy like "mujhe mua'af kar do/dein"? 

There has been discussion on this in (a non-serious/lighthearted manner) in some TV programs that English left a very convenient phrase to use: "I am sorry!" It is short, sweet, and simple... 
On the other hand, the Urdu equivalents might get wordy and a bit serious for small everyday excuses........of course many have said that the Urdu phrases convey a lot more "sincerity"!


----------



## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> ...
> Thanks for the comprehensive informative post Faylasoof SaaHib! Probably a silly question: _So could "anaa aasif" be used in Urdu sometimes, when and where other phrases are somewhat wordy like "mujhe mua'af kar do/dein"_?
> 
> There has been discussion on this in (a non-serious/lighthearted manner) in some TV programs that English left a very convenient phrase to use: "I am sorry!" It is short, sweet, and simple...
> _On the other hand, the Urdu equivalents might get wordy and a bit serious for small everyday excuses._.......of course many have said that the Urdu phrases convey a lot more "sincerity"!


 _Only an Urdupnone who also happens to know Arabic (well) would understand what you mean if you said this! I know many people get a smattering of Arabic and they might think that all you are saying, after committing some outrage, is who you are: *I am Asif (aasif)! *_

I think it is OK to say in Urdu : _*ma3aafii!*_ = _*maafii!*_ -- when said really fast! This is pretty short - even shorter than _*anaa aasif*_!

But let us stick to _*aSaf*_, _*aaSaf*_ and _*aaSif*_ here! 

Actually, I just looked up three Urdu lexicons. Two have _*aaSaf*_, one has _*aaSif*_. All wrong! None, so far has _*aSaf*_. 

I now need to look up my Hebrew Old Testament Bible and confirm from Hebrewphones whether they pronounce *אסף *indeed as _*asaf*_. 

My Arabic Bible clearly has it as *2aSaf* *أ**صف*. Just to be sure I checked Hans WehR and other Arabic lexicons. They all have _*2aSaf*_. So _*2aSaf*_ (Arabic) and _*aSaf*_ (Urdu) it is or rather should be.


----------



## Abu Talha

Faylasoof said:


> *آصف* *aaSaf *and* aaSif* both pronunciations have been used. _But in a way both are wrong because the original is actually from Hebrew and it is_:
> 
> *אסף* *aSaph* <-Biblical name -> The ף *pe* at the end is pronounced *f* , hence the letter ف faa in Arabic.
> 
> *2**aSaf* *أصف* in Classical Arab [[cf. *אסף* *aSaph* (*aSaf*), Hebrew]] = grand vizier (after the _waziir_ of _HaDhrate-e-sulaimaan_). It initially was used only as a title. In Urdu it is written as _*asaf*_ اصف , i.e. no initial hamzah, otherwise the same as in Arabic.


Thanks for he very informative reply Faylasoof Sb. I don't know about the original Hebrew, but the classical Arabic dictionaries (تاج العروس, القاموس المحيط, العباب الزاخر) give the name as aaSaf and the tree/bush as aSaf. القاموس المحيط says the name is on the pattern of haajar, هاجَر.


> Just to add to the link AT Sb above gave for *Asaf*-udu-Daulah (and the Urdu given as *آصف* _*aaSaf *_or _*aaSif*_ is wrong, should be *اصف aSaf*)


I don't know about the title. It could very well be aSaf, but if they were basing it on the scribe of Sulaiman عليه السلام then I would assume it would remain aaSaf, the Arabized version of the original Hebrew.


----------



## Qureshpor

Thank you everyone and especially Faylasoof SaaHib for your contributions. Apart from learning that the word is not aasif, I have learnt from Faylasoof SaaHib that the name is Asaf-ud-Daula and not Aasaf-ud-Daula. It appears that asaf/aasaf/aasif all have an existence in the Urdu world.


----------



## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you everyone and especially Faylasoof SaaHib for your contributions. Apart from learning that the word is not aasif, I have learnt from Faylasoof SaaHib that the name is Asaf-ud-Daula and not Aasaf-ud-Daula. It appears that asaf/aasaf/aasif all have an existence in the Urdu world.


 QP SaaHib, you are most welcome!

Actually, the trouble is even present-day _lakhnaviis_ have got this wrong! They too say Aasif-ud-Dualah and Aasifii ImambaaRaa (imambaargaah) !  Another example of _ghalat-ul-3aam_!  If you say Asaf-ud-Dualah then for a moment they think it is someone else!


----------



## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> QP SaaHib, you are most welcome!
> 
> Actually, the trouble is even present-day _lakhnaviis_ have got this wrong! They too say Aasif-ud-Dualah and Aasifii ImambaaRaa (imambaargaah) !  Another example of _ghalat-ul-3aam_!  If you say Asaf-ud-Dualah then for a moment they think it is someone else!



We are in a bit of a quandary, it seems. I have always used the word "aasif" (through ignorance) and now that I know it ought to be (at least) "aasaf", I shall be penalised for using Punjabi type pronunciation! 

ga'e donoN jahaaN ke kaam se ham, nah idhar ke rahe nah udhar ke rahe
nah xudaa hii milaa nah visaal-i-sanam, nah idhar ke rahe nah udhar ke rahe


----------



## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*                                                       QP SaaHib, you are most welcome!
> 
> Actually, the trouble is even present-day _lakhnaviis_ have got this wrong! They too say Aasif-ud-Dualah and Aasifii ImambaaRaa (imambaargaah) !  Another example of _ghalat-ul-3aam_!  If you say Asaf-ud-Dualah then for a moment they think it is someone else!
> 
> 
> 
> We are in a bit of a quandary, it seems. I have always used the word "aasif" (through ignorance) and now that I know it ought to be (at least) "aasaf", I shall be penalised for using Punjabi type pronunciation!
> 
> ga'e donoN jahaaN ke kaam se ham, nah idhar ke rahe nah udhar ke rahe
> nah xudaa hii milaa nah visaal-i-sanam, nah idhar ke rahe nah udhar ke rahe
Click to expand...

 I can understand your position! The best option would be to say *Asaf* – not Aasif and not Aasaf. The original is after all *2aSaf* *أصف* in Arabic which means *aSaf *in Urdu.

If you feel uneasy with Asaf (*aSaf*) then just stay with Aasif! My _nasiim-ul-lughaat_ too has _*aaSif*_ !


----------

