# FR: sortir - direct objects and auxiliary



## Kins

*Difficulty understanding direct objects, more specifically, when verbs take avoir rather than être in the passé composé.*

When writing in the passé composé, I understand that verbs which usually take être take avoir when they take a direct object. 

I am having trouble understanding what a direct object is. I know it as something that 'takes effect of the verb', but I have practised exercises and have not been very consistent. Can anyone offer any guidance?

I have a grammar test on Wednesday on the passé composé and imparfait and would like to ace it!!

Any help appreciated 


_ Moderator note:  The original title has been placed inside the post and the title changed._


----------



## jsrwang

The choice between _être _and _avoir _and taking a direct object have nothing to do with each other, except with a very, very small number of verbs such as _sortir_ which go with _être _when they are not followed by an object (_je suis sorti_) and _avoir_ when they are (_j'ai sorti mon fusil_).

A direct object is an object that follows the verb directly. In _j'attends Paul_, Paul is a direct object. In _j'ai donné un livre à Paul_, Paul is an indirect object. The easiest way to find out if an object is direct or indirect is to follow the verb with _quelqu'un_ or _quelque chose_. If you need to say _verbe à quelqu'un/quelque chose_, then that's an indirect object.

See http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/etreverbs.htm for more information.


----------



## Kins

I have learnt that verbs which can be thought of as coming or going verbs take être_..._ (I understand which ones these are)

Your explanation of a direct object does help  I still seem to often struggle with the difference and choose the incorrect auxiliary verb


----------



## Outsider

The direct object is directly acted upon by the subject. This contrasts with the indirect object, which is merely a beneficiary of the action. A classical example is the verb "to give".

John gave Mary a kiss.

action: _to give_
subject (who gives): _John_
direct object (what is given): _a kiss_
indirect object (whom it is given to): _Mary_​This is the basic idea. Now, there are certainly some grey areas where each language basically has to "decide" whether an object will be treated as direct or indirect.

Another way to tell is that in French only the direct object can be turned into the subject of a passive voice:

Jean a envoyé une lettre à Marie. --> Une lettre a été envoyée à Marie par Jean.​
However, in English both kinds of object can be turned into subjects:

John sent Mary a letter.
A letter was sent by John to Mary.
Mary was sent a letter by John.​


----------



## Kins

Oh that helps!! I kind of understood what an indirect object was but then i thought so many were which actually weren't... I blame it on my grammar teachers!!


----------



## Outsider

Some confusion is natural at first. It seems that English grammars use a different definition of "direct object" and "indirect object" than French grammars. You should guide yourself by the latter rather than the former. (The concept of indirect object is unimportant in English, anyway.)


----------



## Kins

That's what I have grasped so far. I know I've never used such terms in english grammar. 

Would you be able to offer a sort of 'rule' for working out a direct object to an indirect object? So far I've only managed to confuse myself, The example which confused me...

She went down the stairs. ( The stairs was calssified as direct).

She left the hospital. (The hospital was listed as indirect).

I failed to see the difference...


----------



## Outsider

I fail to see it too. To make things just a little more complicated for all of us, not everything that comes after a verb is necessarily a direct or indirect object. There are also other kinds of phrases, called complements, which are a bit difficult to explain. "Objects" are the ones that can be replaced with personal pronouns.

In that second sentence, though, my first temptation would have been to classify "the hospital" as the direct object of "left". Perhaps someone else can give us a hand with that one...


----------



## Kins

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who would have said the same!!

Please help you clever people!!  xx


----------



## lazarus1907

Kins said:


> She went down the stairs. ( The stairs was calssified as direct).
> 
> She left the hospital. (The hospital was listed as indirect).
> 
> I failed to see the difference...


Are these examples explaining the direct and indirect objects in English, or in French? I can tell you that in Spanish both would be direct objects.


----------



## Outsider

I looked up the verb "to leave" in the Merriam-Webster. It can be intransitive or transitive, but here's an example they give of its transitive use:



> depart <leave the room>


If "the room" is not a complement here, then neither should "the hospital" be one in Kins' example. As far as I know, it should be classified as a direct object in English grammar, and I see no reason why French grammar would have a different classification in this particular case.


----------



## Kins

These examples were in french... on realfrench.net


----------



## Tim~!

Kins said:


> She went down the stairs. ( The stairs was calssified as direct).
> 
> She left the hospital. (The hospital was listed as indirect).
> 
> I failed to see the difference...


In French, the phrase would be "Elle est partie de l'hôpital".  The verb _partir _is not actually taking a direct object.  "She left" is a stand-alone sentence, _partir _being what we call an intransitive verb, which means it doesn't take an direct object.  What we've done in this sentence is add "de + object" to relay some more information, but the "hôpital" is not actually required by the verb and isn't appended directly.


----------



## lazarus1907

What was the verb in French then?


> *Quitter* means to *leave someone or something* - it is transitive, meaning that it must be followed by a *direct object*. It often indicates a prolonged separation. Ils quittent la France - They're leaving France
> 
> http://french.about.com/cs/vocabulary/a/toleave.htm


If the verb is 'partir', it doesn't take an indirect object neither.


----------



## jann

Kins said:


> She went down the stairs. ( The stairs was calssified as direct).
> She left the hospital. (The hospital was listed as indirect).
> I failed to see the difference...


The reason for your confusion is two-fold. 

1.  The example sentences are written in English, but "direct" or "indirect" classification refers to the French version of the sentence.
2.  Some French verbs do not have the same structure as their most natural English equivalent.

_descendre l'escalier_ -  What do you "descend" or "go down"?  You go down the stairs.  --> _l'escalier_ is the direct object  in French, just like in English.

_sortir de l'hôpital_ - The _de_ indicates "from" the hospital.  We cannot say _sortir l'hôpital_  (that would mean something like taking the hospital out, like you would take the dog out, or the garbage!).  In French, the _de_ has to be there to indicate that you are going out *of* the hospital.  So actually, we say "to leave the hospital" in English, but they say "to go out of the hospital" in French - and you can see that these two phrases don't have the same structure.

The fact that we need the preposition (_de_ in French, "of" in English) means that _l'hôpital _is not a direct object.  In French, we will call it _un complément circonstantiel de lieu_ = it adds complementary information about the particular circumstances, specificaly about place/location.  Because it is introduced by the preposition _de_, this complement is an indirect construction.  But it is not an indirect "object."  

You can also say _partir de l'hôpital_, but this is less natural because _partir_ indicates a departure.  Getting let out of the hospital or walking out of the hospital doors is more of a simple exit, so _sortir_ is more natural.  The grammar is exactly the same no matter which verb you choose. 
 

Now as regards conjugating these verbs in the past tense, you can make it easy for yourself to remember which auxiliary to use when by thinking of English translations that are more appropriate, though perhaps less natural:

_sortir_ = "to go out, to exit" --> there is no more information added, use _être_
_sortir de + place_ = "to go out of + place", "to leave from + place" --> the information added is introduced by the preposition _de_ = of, from_.  _Therefore it is not a direct object, use _être_
_sortir + object _= "to take something out" --> What gets taken out?  Something does - the trash, the dog, the plates from the cabinet, etc. The information added is not introduced by a preposition.  It is a direct object, use _avoir
_
Does this help?


----------



## Kins

Thanks Jann the explanation of sentences being structured different in french was the key i think! 

I suppose it's much easier once you're starting to think in french when you're reading french, rather than still thinking in english...

Ok I think I have just about crakced. Thanks to everyone else it'll really help in my exam


----------

