# FR: un/une de mes amis/amies



## aoisan

My friend suggest that it should be Mes Amies... but somehow I think it's Mes Amis.. which one is correct?


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## aditii

hi

mes amis (plural,masculine)
mes amies(singular,feminin)
Tout depend du sexe ......
a la prochaine


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## Samo

mes amis (plural,masculine or m and f)
mes amies(pl,feminin)


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## Primal

To clarify, in full sentences.

If you are talking about several of your friends, all of whom are female, you would use _mes amies_, with the extra e.  Otherwise, if they are all male, or even if there is just one male in a group of females, you would use _mes amis, _without the extra e.
Primal


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## isabellejia

Je suis d'accord avec les autres, mais j'ai une autre question pour aller plus loin:

_Une de mes amies_,  c'est sûrement correcte. parce qu'il signifie les féminins (une et amies)

et 

_Une de mes amis_, c'est aussi correcte je crois, et quelqu'un peut me confirmer ?     
ex:  Une de mes amis est plus gentille que les autres.


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## Maître Capello

Non, c'est soit _un de mes amis_, soit _un*e* de mes ami*e*s_.


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## rustispring

Si je veux écrire "one (a female) of my friends (all friends, male and female)" est il correct de mettre "une de mes amis" en ce cas? Est-il possible de distinguer que l'amie est un fille, mes mes amis sont des garçons et des filles? Ou est-ce que je dois écrire "un de mes amis", même si c'est une fille dont je parle, et clarifier plus tard que c'est une fille?

Merci, et j'espère que c'était assez clair, ce que j'ai demandé


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## UKnight

Hello!

May I try to answer?

*The problem:*
Gender and Number are the keys of agreement in French grammar.
In this case, Number is set to Plural. We won't discuss about this, then.
We will deal with Genders.

*Theory:*
Rule 1: between feminine gender and masculine gender, *masculine gender* prevails (don't ask why, it's not important here).
Rule 2: even only *one* masculine gender word is found among a thousand feminine gender words, rule 1 remains the reference.
Rule 3: if gender is *undefined* or hard to find, rule 1 remains the reference.

The *plural masculine gender* of _Ami_ is _Ami__*s*_,
The _*plural feminine gender*_ of _Ami_ is _Ami*es*_.

*Application:*
_*Correct expressions are only theses*_:
Gender is exclusively masculine: _Un de mes amis_
Gender is exclusively feminine: _Un__*e*__ de mes ami__*e*__s_
Gender is undefined : _Un de mes amis_
Gender is masculine and feminine: _Un de mes amis_

_*Incorrect or tolerated expressions*_:
_Un de mes amies_ is NOT French whatever it looks like (sounds like _a boy is one of all these female friends_)
_Une de mes amis_ is *tolerated* (sounds like _a girl is one of these male friends_) in *some contexts*: willing to show the person is a woman, a girl...

Hope it helps someone.


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## Maître Capello

UKnight said:


> _Une de mes amis_ is *tolerated* (sounds like _a girl is one of these male friends_) in *some contexts*: willing to show the person is a woman, a girl...


I agree with your previous post but for the above-quoted excerpt: I would always consider _une de mes amis_ to be incorrect. You wrote “in some contexts.” Could you please mention a few of them? (I can't find any.)

So, to answer rustispring's question, I would probably translate “one (a female) of my friends (all friends, male and female)” as _*une* de mes am*ie*s_ most of the time. It may however be also possible to say _*un* de mes am*i*s_ in some contexts.

About a female friend:
_C'est *un* de mes am*i*s._  (not idiomatic)
_C'est *une* de mes am*ie*s._ → Even if you have some male friends as well, she belongs to the sub-group of your female friends.
_Elle est l'*un* de mes am*i*s les plus proches._ → The masculine implies that she belongs to your close friends (both male and female).
_Elle est l'*une* de mes am*ie*s les plus proches._ → The feminine implies that you're talking about your close female friends only.


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## Nicomon

I agree with MC, as far as grammar is concerned. However « _*Elle *est *l'un *de mes amis _» sounds odd to my Quebecker ears.

I'd probably word it differently to avoid the feminine/masculine issue. e.g. : 
- _Elle fait partie de mes meilleurs amis (de mon groupe d'amis) / Elle compte parmi mes meilleurs amis.
_
Now, if the sentence goes something like : - _One of my friends is moving to England / lives in France - _or any other following verb - one way around the issue could be : - _J'ai une amie qui déménage en Angleterre / vit en France, etc. _


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## CapnPrep

This is an area where I think tolerance should be offered generously, because the language simply doesn't provide a way to express the intended meaning clearly and precisely, and respect all grammatical rules at the same time. _Un de mes amis_ for a female may be correct from a grammatical point of view, but it is only just "tolerable" from a communicative point of view, and I wouldn't personally rank it much higher than _une de mes amis_ (which makes the opposite choice, to favor clarity of expression over strict grammar). 

If you don't want to be simply tolerated, and risk people paying more attention to the form of your words than to their substance, then Nicomon's suggestion to change the phrasing is definitely the way to go.

See also:
one of my
one of the speakers present
You were one of the few people to get that question right
He mistook her for one of them
D'une de ses proches


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## UKnight

Maître Capello said:


> Could you please mention a few of them?


Well!
Don't be so Manichean, old friend!
Don't forget I said _"May I *try* to answer?"_.
*Tolerance* is the frontier between *Acceptability* and *Unacceptability*. I never said _une de mes amis_ is correct. In a personal point of view, I would never say this like that.

*The situation*:
Ten friends = one girl + nine boys. I would like to talk about the girl (one of my friends).
Imagine her name among these (alphabetical order) typical French women names: _Annie_, _Béatrice_, _Charlotte_, [...] , _Yvette_, _Zazie_ (_Zoé_ could be a men's name even though it is essentially a women's)

*Question*:
You would like to talk about *the* girl. What would you say?

*Possible answers* (my humble point of view):
Because, I'm lazy, I take the first name _(Annie)_. The sentence, _Annie, one of my friends, eat an apple_, would be translated into:
_Annie, __un__ de mes ami__es__, mange une pomme._ (NEVER: the reason was posted above)
_Annie, _*un*_ de mes amis, mange une pomme._ (ILLOGICAL: _Annie_ is typically a *feminine and defined* name!)
_Annie, un__e__ de mes ami__s__, mange une pomme._ (Tolerated, *BUT*, not correct!)
_Annie, une de mes ami__es__, mange une pomme._ (ILLOGICAL: There's only *one* girl and there's at least one boy in our context [nine in fact]!)

*The solution* (always my humble point of view):
It is impossible to translate *directly*. You have to change some words. In fact, it's not a grammatical problem, it's a problem of gender: from English to French, there will always be a gender problem in terms of translation.
I would translate like this:
_Annie, une __*parmi*__ mes amis, mange une pomme._ (it sounds weird, but, why not?)
_Annie, une __amie parmi__ mes amis, mange une pomme._ (the best way, in my humble and personal opinion)
Obviously, it *is* not a direct translation, but, that is what I found best: a kind of consensus.
Expecting a (very) simple solution? This could help: _Annie, une amie, mange une pomme._

*To conclude* (again my humble point of view):
It is more complicated than it sounds, in fact.
I strongly recommend to look for a French language specialist: grammar, semantics, and so on...


Maître Capello said:


> C'est une de mes amies. → Even if you have some male friends as well, she belongs to the sub-group of your female friends.
> Elle est l'un de mes amis les plus proches. → The masculine implies that she belongs to your close friends (both male and female).
> Elle est l'une de mes amies les plus proches. → The feminine implies that you're talking about your close female friends only.


Why not? It sounds interesting...
I'm afraid the debate is not closed about one of my friends...


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## Nicomon

Another option which is of course colloquial/familiar, then again often heard (and mentioned in one of the threads that Capn'Prep linked to) would be :

_- Annie, une amie à moi... 

_Now whether you write _une de mes ami*e*s _or _une de mes amis, _nobody will hear the difference when you say it.


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## Maître Capello

UKnight said:


> _Annie, un__e__ de mes ami__s__, mange une pomme._ (Tolerated, *BUT*, not correct!)
> _Annie, une de mes ami__es__, mange une pomme._ (ILLOGICAL: There's only *one* girl and there's at least one boy in our context [nine in fact]!)


Your first sentence is neither correct nor idiomatic. I therefore wouldn't say that it could be “tolerated.” It is definitely a solution that seems *logical*, but it is not one I would suggest since it is not *natural*.

As for the second sentence, it is *very logical* on the contrary and does make sense in French. In English, “friend” being genderless, it is also sex neutral and hence encompasses both male and female friends. It is therefore natural in English to refer Annie as one of your friends without any specification of sex (“Annie is one of my friends”). On the other hand, in French we naturally distinguish male and female friends since we have two different words for that: _ami_ and _amie_. We therefore quite naturally say in French that Annie is one of our female friends (_Annie est l'un*e* de mes ami*e*s_). Note by the way that the presence of some other friends is irrelevant here: Annie is not only one of the friends who are with you; she is also one of all the friends you have, most of whom are not present.

Rephrasing the whole thing as per Nicomon's suggestion is definitely a solution. But if for some reason you want to keep the same sentence structure in French, the all-feminine solution (_un*e* de mes ami*e*s_) is definitely the way to go in the vast majority of contexts since it is usually pointless to make it clear that she is not only one of your female friends, but also one of your friends without any sex distinction.


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## CapnPrep

As I understood it, UKnight was imagining a situation where you have several friends, but Annie is the only girl among them. (Although then I don't know who Béatrice, Zazie, etc. are…) 

Anyway, let's assume you only have one female friend, Annie. Maybe you somehow never noticed before that all of your other friends were male, or maybe you don't want to specifically call attention to this fact by referring to Annie as _ma seule amie-‹e›_ or whatever. In this situation, _une de mes amies_ is factually incorrect (or at best misleading), because _mes amies_ is a group that does not exist.


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## Maître Capello

Normal people have both several male and several female friends.  If the person really has only a single female friend, it definitely falls outside “the vast majority of contexts”!


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## CapnPrep

Does French only allow you to talk about normal people and normal situations?  Besides, it isn't that unusual for there to be only one woman in a small group of people, and it's quite normal to have only a small number of friends… But if the proposed context is too unrealistic for you, let's say Annie happens to be the only woman among _nos invités d'honneur ce soir_, _les gagnants du concours_, or_ tes_ _accusateurs_. How would you express this? _Annie est un(e) de…_


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## UKnight

CapnPrep said:


> (Although then I don't know who Béatrice, Zazie, etc. are…)


*NO!* Read the post correctly.
I only have *ONE* friend (the girl, _Annie_, here!) among ten friends (NINE BOYS, then).
The list of names are just a list of possible typical French names of women.
You pick one of them (and only one of them) and you apply the picked one to your sentence! If you don't like _Annie_, you take _Béatrice_. If you don't like _Béatrice_, you take _Charlotte_. And so on...
The reason?
When used (these French names), feminine gender *is* mandatory because these names are only girls' names in the French culture. That's what I know.
Is that clear, now?


CapnPrep said:


> _Annie_ as *ma seule* amie


In this case? *YES!* That's it!
The _group_ (that's what you said) of girls (plural) *does* not exist in the group (remember the situation: ten friends = *one* girl + nine boys). That's why it is illogical (maybe correct) to say _Annie, une de mes ami*es*_. I do not understand the Master.

I love what you are trying to ask: If you don't know the number of girls or boys, what should be the sentence?
If the number of girls are undefined, _Annie, une de mes amies_ should be correct.
Reason? I try to explain:
_Annie_ [always feminine]_, une amie parmi mes amies_ [group: girls]_ dans mon cercle_ [meaning the group, in this case]_ d'amis_ [group: boys and girls].
Or,
_Annie_ [always feminine]_, une amie parmi mes amies_ [group: girls]_ dans ma liste_ [meaning the group, in this case]_ d'amis_ [group: boys and girls].
Annie (one in a group) => Girls (the group where she is) => Boys and girls (the group where "Girls" group is)
The problem is when I want to specify she is the only girl in the group (because the others are boys)...



CapnPrep said:


> Does French only allow you to talk about normal people and normal situations?


I love what you say! *YES!* Some people have only one girl among friends or one boy among friends (the others are girls)!
Some people only have one daughter among the other children. So what? Maybe, the situation's impossible in France, but, possible elsewhere...

We are talking about what is possible: this includes exceptions. Frenchmen say "_L'exception confirme la règle._"

As I tried to say, this interesting debate won't close... We're expecting a specialist to give the last word.
Anyone?


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## Nicomon

This is in answer to CapnPrep (post #17).

Well, based on this sentence extracted from post # 9 :





> _Elle est l'*un* de mes am*i*s les plus proches._ → The masculine implies that she belongs to your close friends (both male and female).


 I assume that if we want to keep the same structure, it would be grammatically correct to say/write : _Annie est l'un de nos invités / des gagnants / de tes accusateurs. _For some reason, the combination of feminine (Annie) / masculine doesn't bother me as much in those contexts as it does with _amis/amies._ Go figure why!

I meanwhile found this : 





> *Une de + féminin*
> *Un de + masculin*
> Connue dans le monde entier comme l’*une des sculptrices les plus douées*, Marianna Paolini a laissé derrière elle une œuvre importante.
> 
> Connue dans le monde entier comme l’*un* *des sculpteurs* *les plus doués*, Marianna Paolini a laissé derrière elle une œuvre importante.
> 
> Dans l’exemple de gauche, le nom féminin _sculptrices_ désigne un groupe de référence ne comportant que des femmes. *Par ailleurs, l’emploi de la forme une de + masculin serait incorrect grammaticalement puisque le féminin une ne peut être associé à un nom masculin. *La féminisation de cette structure est donc complexe, car l’emploi de formes féminines nécessite une reformulation de la phrase. Une solution plus simple consiste à n’employer que la forme masculine.


 More about « _un de / un*e* de_ » on *this page.

Edit : *If Annie was the only girl in my group of friends, then I might say (literally): _Annie, la seule fille dans mon groupe/cercle d'amis. _
but as a born and raised Quebecker I'd most likely say instead (this being Quebec French) : _Annie, ma seule *amie de **fille*. 

_


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## Maître Capello

CapnPrep said:


> But if the proposed context is too unrealistic for you, let's say Annie happens to be the only woman among _nos invités d'honneur ce soir_, _les gagnants du concours_, or_ tes_ _accusateurs_. How would you express this? _Annie est un(e) de…_


In such cases, I guess I'd either use the masculine or rephrase the sentence a bit:

_Annie est l'un de nos invités d'honneur ce soir._ / _Annie *fait partie de* nos invités d'honneur ce soir._
_Annie est l'un des gagnants du concours._ / _Annie est *l'une des personnes* qui ont gagné le concours._
_Annie est l'un de tes accusateurs._ / _Annie est *l'une des personnes* qui t'accusent._


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## CapnPrep

Nicomon said:


> BDL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Par ailleurs, l’emploi de la forme _une de_ + masculin serait incorrect grammaticalement puisque le féminin _une_ ne peut être associé à un nom masculin.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to encourage the use of _une de _+ masculine plural, but I do think it's an arbitrary decision to declare it either grammatical or ungrammatical. In response to the BDL's reasoning, one could point out the following:

"_Associé_" is a vague term, and I think it is too strong to say that _une _cannot be associated with a masculine noun. For example: _Tu as plein d'*amis* à Londres, mais moi, je n'en ai qu'___, elle s'appelle Annie._ 
In principle, _un(e) _in the [_un(e) de _+ plural complement] construction should agree with the singular term corresponding to the plural complement. But normally there will be several possible singular terms to choose from. For example, _mes amis_ = _mon ami1 _+ _mon ami2 _+ … + _mon amie1__ + mon amie2_ + … so in this sense the gender should be chosen to match the referent. 
 There is just one example of _une de mes amis_ in Frantext, but of course it could be a typo for _amies_:

*Une* *de* *mes* *amis*, Betty W., vient d'être arrêtée dans le Midi (Jeanne Pouquet) 
And in fact, I haven't found any examples involving nouns, so writers do seem to avoid this construction generally. But the following examples involving _eux _are pertinent, and striking (to me, anyway):

Ils avaient tant d'*enfants*, et si peu de pommes de terre, que marier l'*une* *d'**eux* sur le continent ne serait pas pour leur déplaire, à la condition qu'il s'agisse d'un catholique. (Éric Olliver) 
*** s'était trouvée un soir en voiture avec une demi-douzaine d'*étudiants*. Et là, l'*une* *d'**entre* *eux* avait raconté que dans son cours de sport, il y avait, chose rare, parmi quinze élèves, une prof, et qu'elle était _incredibly cool_ … (Anne Garréta)


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## Nicomon

What the BDL article is saying is that one couldn't say for instance : _Un*e* des sculpteurs. 
_You're changing the issue. 

_Associé_ may not be the best choice of words, but in your example (_Tu as plein d'amis à Londres _[...]) _une _is not "directly associated" to _amis _but rather to _Annie. 
- Tu as plusieurs amis à Londres mais je n'en ai qu'une... Annie = Tu as plusieurs amis à Londres, mais j'ai une seule amie là-bas... Annie.

_Besides, we were debating _un/une *de.*  _

For the record, you'll find on *that page *a list of the reference material that the BDL uses, among which Grevisse, of course : 





> Cependant, cette bibliographie n'est pas exhaustive; elle présente simplement les principaux ouvrages consultés par l'équipe de la BDL pour la rédaction des articles traitant de la grammaire.


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## CapnPrep

Nicomon said:


> What the BDL article is saying is that one couldn't say for instance : _Un*e* des sculpteurs.
> _You're changing the issue.


 How am I changing the issue? Again, I am not recommending for people to say _une des sculpteurs_, I just don't see any "deep" grammatical reason why one couldn't say it.


Nicomon said:


> in your example (_Tu as plein d'amis à Londres _[...]) _une _is not "directly associated" to _amis _but rather to _Annie._


In _un(e) des sculpteurs_, _un(e)_ is not "directly associated" with _sculpteurs_, either: you must first "unpluralize" _sculpteurs_. In the strictly morphological view, the singular of _sculpteurs_ can only be _sculpteur_. But adopting a semantic view, every member of a group of _sculpteurs_ is either a _sculpteur_ or a _sculptrice_. One view is not a priori more valid than the other, but it just happens that French grammar — and French grammarians — tend to favor form over meaning in cases of conflict.


Nicomon said:


> For the record, you'll find on *that page *a list of the reference material that the BDL uses, among which Grevisse, of course


This is a bit useless if they don't bother to indicate within the individual articles the specific sources consulted for each of their rules/recommendations. That said, I wonder why you bring this up at all. I consider the BDL to be a grammatical authority in its own right, and as such they are free to issue opinions that are not necessarily based on Grevisse or any other references.


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## Nicomon

I'm officially off this thread.  Obviously... I'm not making any sense in your view, whatever what I write.


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## lsdslsd

The solution? If possible, try using a word that is the same in the masculine/feminine form:

e.g.: Une des mes collègues / un des mes collègues 

Both of these examples sound perfectly fine.

Or use a "neutral" word such as:

e.g.: une de mes connaissances (which, however, may pertain to a male or female so I suppose it's not a solution, really)


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## KennyHun

Est-ce que je pourrais dire : elle, c'est mon ami le plus proche (de tous les amis que j'ai, filles ou garçons) ? Sinon que diriez-vous ?
Comment diriez-vous "mon meilleur ami, c'est une fille" pour rester dans la grammaticalité ?


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## Maître Capello

La seule phrase naturelle suivant votre modèle de phrase est : _Elle, c'est mon ami*e* *la* plus proche_. Et si vraiment on veut insister sur le fait qu'elle est la meilleure de tous vos amis (hommes et femmes confondus), on changera la structure de la phrase, p. ex. : _De tous mes amis, elle est la personne de qui je suis le/la plus proche._


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