# zorg / zorgen; care / worry



## ThomasK

Do the words 'care' and 'worry' have the same root in your language ? 

In Dutch and German 'zorg' refers to 'care', 'zorgen' (plural) mostly to 'worry'. It may seem logical: one only worries for someone one cares for, or takes care of. _ (Good Lord, even this is slightly ambiguous - but I will check on in another thread at the English forum)_


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## apmoy70

In Greek we have something similar. We say «νοιάζομαι» (ɲ*a*zome, from the medieval Byzantine Greek «ἐννοιάζομαι»-eɲ*a*zome, I care), and «έχω έννοια» (*e*kho *e*ɲa-lit. I have worries) when we want to express our concern, when we worry about something, or «έχω την έννοια του/της» (*e*kho tin *e*ɲa tu/tis) which means "I worry about him/her, lit. I have worries about him/her"


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## Saluton

Russian:
care - заботиться
worry - беспокоиться
Different roots.


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## sakvaka

In* Finnish*:

First of all - do we consider _care_ and _worry_ nouns or verbs in this thread?

*Case 1)* They're nouns - then they are both translated with the same word, _huoli_.

_Pidä *huolta* hänestä. _Take *care* of her. 
_Hänellä on liikaa *huolia*. _She's got too much *worries*. 

*Case 2)* They're verbs - then the translations are different and depend on the context.

_Sanokoon hän mitä tahansa, minä *en välitä*! _Whatever he may say, I *won't care*! (välittää)
_*Älä piittaa* hänestä, hän on aina tuollainen. _*Don't care* about him, he always behaves like that. (piitata)
_Hän *murehtii* kaiken aikaa. Miksiköhän?_ He *worries* all the time. I wonder why... (murehtia)
_Hänen julmat sanansa *vaivaavat* minua vieläkin._ His cruel words *are* still *worrying* me. (vaivata)
_*Olen huolissani* hänen tulevaisuudestaan._ *I am worried* about her future. (olla huolissaan)


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## ThomasK

I had thought of verbs mainly, but do not mind referring to 'related nouns'. 

1 + 2 Funny thing: no (etymological) relation between the nouns ? The words in 1 seem to be quite different (like the 'worry' words in 1 and 2). Strange to me, but ... Any explanation ? 
2  We might need to make some distinctions : 
2.1 En välitä: could we say it is the opposite of 2.4, vaivaavat ? 
2.2 Alä piitaa : isn't this something like 2.3, murehti ? _(Nicetranslator.com translates as: don't ignore !! Is there any feeling involved here ?)_
2.3 Murehti : is this the same verb for worrying about someone ? _(NT refer to sorrow even, pity, ..., whereas sorrow seems to come after worrying in vain) _
2.4 Vaivaavat : I wonder whether the meaning is perfectly parallel with 2.1 (also fear, anxiety ? 2.4 seems more like causing hurt)

One important question: the association of pain or even grief and worry is not so self-evident to me, but OK, one could say worry is psychological pain indeed.


Saluton said:


> Russian:
> care - заботиться
> worry - беспокоиться
> Different roots.


 
Could you spell that please ? (_Sabotirtisha/ beslokoitisha ??? Just trying..._) And maybe: can you trace any other roots (pain, sorrow, grief, thinking, ...) in those two words ?


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## sakvaka

*2.1* In some sense we could. 

_Hänen sanansa vaivaavat minua, mutta minä en niistä välitä._
His words worry/bother me, but I don't care about them.

But I wouldn't consider _vaivata_ the exact opposite of _välittää_, if verbs even could have opposites!

*2.2 *Älä piittaa heistä = Älä välitä heistä = Don't care about them. = Don't let them bother you ("they" are doing something bad towards you)
Älä murehdi siitä = Älä ole huolissasi siitä = Don't worry. = Don't be worried about it (you're afraid of "it")

I have never studied German, but now my dictionary could help with sorting out this problem . 
piitata = um etwas, wegen etwas unbesorgt
murehtia = über etwas betrübt sein

*2.3* Well... 

_Mitähän hän tekee? *Olen huolissani* hänestä._ I wonder what he's doing. I am worried about him.

So it seems not to be. There's no sorrow in that sentence - it can be created with the verb _surra_.

*2.4 *See 2.2.


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## ThomasK

Just very quickly first: thanks. _Murehtia_, 'betrübt' in German reminds of sorrow, if I am not mistaken, which we would not associate with it. But I need more time for the rest ! ;-)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Could you spell that please ? (_Sabotirtisha/ beslokoitisha ??? Just trying..._)



Let me do it!  The cyrillic alphabet is the only thing I know about Russian...

The words are spelt:
zabotitsya and bespokoitsya


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## danylor

I never thought before but in romanian this 2 words have the same root :
care/worry : grija/ingrijorat


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## ThomasK

Just wondering, Danylor: what do the prefix *in-* and the infix *-or-* mean? Any idea ?

@ sakvaka: in fact I meant that 2.1 and 2.5 could be antonyms (I don't care and I worry). 

The main thing I am surprised about is, that there seems to be no common root: they all seem quite separate. But ont the other hand I am afraid that none of these are pure equivalents, but that is hard to find out. 

How about any ignoring in 'piitaa' ? 



For example: what is the result of bothering in Finnish? Just unease or fear, or psychological pain especially? (I think in English it would mainly be the latter)


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## danylor

ThomasK said:


> Just wondering, Danylor: what do the prefix *in-* and the infix *-or-* mean? Any idea ?


 
The prefix *in* means 'the inside" (internal )
But -or in this case , or maybe the suffix -orat, sincerely, i don't know, if i found something i went back to you with the explanation.


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## ThomasK

'In' is already an interesting start...


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## danylor

I found more explanation: 
The sentence : A avea grija = have care
                             A intra la grija = come with care (but it mean “I start to worry”)
And is easy understanding the prefix “in”
I suppose that the suffixe –orat could be found by a little transformation of the case vocative at plural grijilor .
The vocative case in Romanian has a special form for most nouns, but for convenience reasons the form of the nominative is often employed. The traditional vocative is retained in speech, however, in informal speech, or by people living in the countryside. It is seen as a mark of _unrefined_ speech by the majority of city-dwellers, who refrain from its usage.
*Declinarea substantivului
grijă*​*f.*​*Singular*​*Plural*​*Nominativ-Acuzativ*​*grijă*​*griji*​*Articulat*​*grija*​*grijile*​*Dativ-Genitiv*​*grijei*​*grijilor*​*Vocativ*​*grijo*​*grijilor*​


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## OldAvatar

Actually, the suffix of equivalent of _worry _in Romanian is -are, while the word for worry is _îngrijorare_. -or, in this case are just being connection letters._
îngrijorat(ă) _means *worried*
_-at(ă)_ are the suffixes of the adjective (masc./fem.)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> @ sakvaka: in fact I meant that 2.1 and 2.5 could be antonyms (I don't care and I worry).
> 
> The main thing I am surprised about is etc.



I made you a presentation about everything I know. Hopefully it helps 

The link: http://koti.mbnet.fi/sakvaka/vaivata.pdf


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## ThomasK

This is incredible, Sakvaka. Thanks !

_[Moderator, can we assign S a price for 'informativeness' ??? ]_


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> This is incredible, Sakvaka. Thanks !



Had nothing to do on a dull Sunday morning...


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## ThomasK

I'll be back to ask some more; 

But if your afternoon threatens to become dull, check this out: http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=6789459&postcount=17 (it contains a reference to Finnish).


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## ThomasK

@Sakvaka : 
- you refer to getting worried and liking in one and the same verb then (probably there is a minor mistake in 1 (1): _um etwas besorgt_, nicht _*un*besorgt_)
- are _väl.._. and _pit._.. only used with negation ? 
- mur... seems to refer to heaviness (the world) and sorrow, but then: would the English use _worry_ here ? It seems more like a characteristic of that person, I thought
- in _huol..._ fear seems implied...
- vaiva... : the English would use _bother_ here, I believe, never _worry_. 
 - in _mureh..._ and _vaiva_ an element of a load seems to be implied ! 

Very interesting though for helping us explore the complexity of the concept (?) of worrying/ caring !!!


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## phosphore

Serbian:

care (noun) - _briga_
worry (noun) - _zabrinutost, briga_

worried (adjective) - _zabrinut, brižan_

to care (verb) - _brinuti (se),_ also _pobrinuti se_
to worry (verb) - _brinuti (se),_ also _zabrinuti se_


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## ThomasK

Thanks, so there is a common root _bri_-. How about the prefixes _po-_ and _za-_ ? What do they express ? 

Just wondering: how about 
- _caring_ (something with bri- ?)
- _I don't care_ ?


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## phosphore

_Po-_ and _za-_ are aspectual prefixes: _po-_ in this particular case means _to manage to care_, while _za-_ means _to start worrying_. There is also _zabrinjavati_ (_nekoga_, acc.) that means _to make _(_someone_) _worry_. 

"I don't care" would be "nije me briga" (where briga is used as a predicative) or, colloquially, "briga me", "baš me briga" (where affirmative forms are used to express negative meaning). _Caring_ would be _brižan_ (adjective) or _briga_ (noun) or _brinuti_ (_se_) (verb), depending on the context.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> @Sakvaka :
> - you refer to getting worried and ...



1) That's possible. I don't speak German 
2) _Piitata_ is usually used with negation. When you're using _välittää_, it doesn't matter whether the sentence is "negative or positive".
3) According to Wikipedia, "Worry is an emotion in which a person feels anxious or concerned about a real or imagined issue". 
_Murehtia_ means just this, worrying and being anxious, but after something bad has happened. You can't _murehtia_ something that hasn't already happened.
4) You are right, that's fear.
5) Why not? _It worries me _is a song by Frank Sinatra. In Finnish it would be:_ Se vaivaa/huolestuttaa minua_ (oh no! another option for translating*)
6) It is.

* huolehtia + causative ending -UttA-


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## ThomasK

2. Then I think pitata has a different meaning, slightly different (as in _I don't care)_
_3._ This is intriguing , Sakvaka: can we worry about something that has happened ? Only about the *consequences* that might have *in the future*; if all has been ruined, we can only mourn, be 'betrübt' in German, try to live with the loss  - but then that is not worrying anymore_._ Di you agree, Savatka? 
5. You are right, I guess. How do I say 'I apologize' in Finnish ? 
6. See my next item in this category ! ;-)


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## sakvaka

3. I agree. When I think it over now, it seems a completely weird idea to translate _murehtia_ "to worry"!   This betrübt-thing seems to suit the verb really well. But why do all the dictionaries I consider offer the translation "to worry"?
5. _Pyydän [vilpittömästi] anteeksi._ I apologize [sincerely].

After all, studying the exact meaning of those verbs in different languages needs knowledge on _psychology_, not _linguistics_.


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## ThomasK

Or: good linguistics includes psychology and other sciences. 

_It worries me_: you were right, *pyydän* ! ;-)


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> In* Finnish*:
> 
> *Case 2)* They're verbs - then the translations are different and depend on the context.
> 
> _Sanokoon hän mitä tahansa, minä *en välitä*! _Whatever he may say, I *won't care*! (välittää)
> _*Älä piittaa* hänestä, hän on aina tuollainen. _*Don't care* about him, he always behaves like that. (piitata)
> _Hän *murehtii* kaiken aikaa. Miksiköhän?_ He *worries* all the time. I wonder why... (murehtia)
> _Hänen julmat sanansa *vaivaavat* minua vieläkin._ His cruel words *are* still *worrying* me. (vaivata)
> _*Olen huolissani* hänen tulevaisuudestaan._ *I am worried* about her future. (olla huolissaan)


 
I just thought of something, Sakvaka: how do you say that someone "takes care of someone else" ? Do you use any of those words ?


phosphore said:


> Serbian:
> 
> care (noun) - _briga_
> worry (noun) - _zabrinutost, briga_
> 
> worried (adjective) - _zabrinut, brižan_
> 
> to care (verb) - _brinuti (se),_ also _pobrinuti se_
> to worry (verb) - _brinuti (se),_ also _zabrinuti se_


 
I just think of this: 
- how do you translate _caring_ (adj.) then
- what is the 'rinuti' element ? And what about the prefixes ? 
- how come then that - maybe I am asking too much - brinuti en briga start with the same word or contain the same word ? 

(Thanks)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> I just thought of something, Sakvaka: how do you say that someone "takes care of someone else" ? Do you use any of those words ?


 
_pitää huolta [jostakusta toisesta]_ 
= to hold the care/worry* [of another person] 

---
* as you may possibly remember, the nouns _care_ and _worry_ are translated the same in Finnish.


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## ThomasK

There should be more. 

Like in French:
- the adj. _*soucieux*_ is fairly positive (but because care leads to worries, I think)
- _*soucis*_ is worries, I believe
- _care_ is only _*soin*_, I think

German is about like Dutch:
- _*sorgen für*_, take care of 
- _*sich sorgen um*_, to be careful of 
- _*sich Sorgen machen um*_, to be worried... 
But here again, the switch from caring to worrying is quickly made...


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## Saluton

ThomasK said:


> Could you spell that please ? (_Sabotirtisha/ beslokoitisha ??? Just trying..._) And maybe: can you trace any other roots (pain, sorrow, grief, thinking, ...) in those two words ?


Sorry for a late reply  Sakvaka is correct, it's read like _zab*o*titsa_ and _bespok*o*itsa_ (*ся* is typically read as "sya" but in *-cя*, a common unstressed suffix meaning "self", it would be too difficult, this is why we say "sa", I guess).

Now for etymology. The verb *заботиться* (zabotitsa) comes from the noun *забота* (zabota) - care. I looked it up in Vasmer's dictionary, the most authoritative dictionary of Russian etymology. It says the root is Slavic. "Ukrainian *забота,* Old Russian *забота, зобота;* also dialectal *зобаться* "care, take much trouble", *зоблеться* "worry", *зоблиться* "care"... Possibly connected by alternation with Serbo-Croat. *зо°бати, зо?б?ем* "eat (wheat)", Slovenian *zobati, zobljem* "peck, eat, devour", because *забота* gnaws, eats people..." (the point is the word *забота* is much more associated with trouble and anxiety than the word *care* is, *забота* can also mean *trouble*). So the whole word is made up like this:

*забот* (care) *+ ить* (infinitive flexion) *+ ся* (final suffix meaning "self")

and it _may_ originally mean "eat oneself".

The etymology of *беспокоиться* (bespokoitsya) is much easier to trace:

*бес* (prefix meaning "without") *+ покой* (noun meaning "rest, peace") *+ ить + ся,*

i.e. "be without peace".

That's it, I suppose...


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## ThomasK

That is great information. But I am still wondering: could there be some mix-up? 

I mean: _care_ in English can be used in two ways, and I only meant the first: 
 - I take care of my brother 
 - I don't care about it (_I don't bother_, not quite _I don't worry_)


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## Saluton

No, *заботиться* and *беспокоиться* cannot be mixed up. *Заботиться* denotes action while *беспокоиться* denotes emotion, and *забота* means "care" or "trouble" but *заботиться* only means "to take care".


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## ThomasK

I think I'll need a separate thread, I think, because the distinction is so subtle: _zorg_ in Dutch can be at the same time the action of taking care and the emotion of worrying (when negative)...

I think I'll need a separate thread, because the distinction is so subtle: _zorg_ in Dutch can be at the same time the action of taking care and the emotion of worrying (when negative)...


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## The Machine of Zhu

In *Czech *there's *dělat (si) starosti* which means *to worry* (zich (= si) zorgen (starosti) maken (dělat).

*To care* about someone/something is *starat se*.

My guess is they are connected, but that's merely a guess.


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## Saluton

Wow! That's really a cool thought, really. In Russian, *стараться* (star*a*tsa) means "to try, strive" and *старость* (st*a*rost') means "old age". I do think they are connected etymologically, it's a pity etymological dictionaries say nothing about it, although they do connect *стараться* with *starati sе*...


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## ThomasK

I just checked on Danish, where _care_ is _omsorg_, so I gather, whereas _sorg_ can refer to sorrow, mourning, grief, but also concern, which sounds like worrying to me. 

_Sorrow_ in English refers to the _zorg_-root in Dutch, but refers to mourning, not to care or worry strictly speaking...


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> I made you a presentation about everything I know. Hopefully it helps
> 
> The link: MBnet


Anyone who knows how I can recover this link, this document? Thanks!


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