# خطوة لم تشهدها السجون الاسرائيلية



## Sidjanga

Hi all,

What exactly does شهد mean in this sentence? (which is the caption of a short documentary on the BBC Arabic site)

في خطوة لم تشهدها السجون الاسرائيلية منذ ست سنوات, بدأ أكثر من سبعة آلاف  معتقل ومعتقلة فلسطينيين  اضرابا عن الطعام.


Does it simply mean "to confirm"? 
That [the people in charge of] the Israeli prisons didn't confirm or reckognise that they did it at all?

Also, how is تشهدها vowelised? تَشْهَدْها ?


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## AndyRoo

It means "seen" or "witnessed"



Sidjanga said:


> Also, how is تشهدها vowelised? تَشْهَدْها ? correct


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## Sidjanga

Thanks, Andy.

But I'm still not sure I understand the sentence they way it is meant.

Does that mean they simply didn't _notice _all those people went on hunger strike?


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## AndyRoo

A translation:

"In a step which Israeli prisons have not witnessed for six years, more than seven thousand detainees have started a hunger strike."

Hope that helps.


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## Sidjanga

Oh, yes - sure!

That definitely makes more sense than the meaning I was trying to give the sentence. 

Thanks!


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## A-class-act

Sidjanga said:


> Thanks, Andy.
> 
> But I'm still not sure I understand the sentence they way it is meant.
> 
> Does that mean they simply didn't _notice _all those people went on hunger strike?


You got it!


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## AndyRoo

A-class-act said:


> You got it!


 
 No that's not the correct meaning, A-class-act.


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## Sidjanga

AndyRoo said:


> "In a step which Israeli prisons have not witnessed for six years,...


And a rather theoretical thought, just out of curiosity - as this obviously wouldn't make sense here:

Is it basically the context that tells us it's _*for *six years_ here, or could 
لم تشهدها...منذ ست سنوات
actually also mean _...didn't witness six years *ago*_?
Or would you have to use قبل in that case?


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## AndyRoo

Yes actually it could be read "didn't witness six years ago" - only the full context will make this clear.


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## A-class-act

AndyRoo said:


> No that's not the correct meaning, A-class-act.


So,what would be the right answer?


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## AndyRoo

A-class-act said:


> So,what would be the right answer?


 
I wrote it before your answer - that's why I was confused by your answer.


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## cherine

Hi,
I think منذ ست سنوات should be "since six years".


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## AndyRoo

cherine said:


> Hi,
> I think منذ ست سنوات should be "since six years".


 
Hi Cherine,

Do you mean it can't be read as "didn't see six years ago"? منذ sometimes has to be translated into English using "ago" - e.g. يتولى السلطة منذ ثمان وثلاثون عامًا , "he took power 38 years ago"; رأيتك آخر مرة منذ حوالي عشرين عامًا "the last time I saw you was 20 years ago". But perhaps it can't here, for some reason?

By the way, we can't say "since six years" in English because we use "since + point of time" e.g. "since 1991" or "since 1 o'clock". We could say "since six years *ago*" here, perhaps, or "for six years", as I mentioned above.


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## cherine

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the correction. I had forgotten about that!

What I wanted to say is that the sentence لم تشهدها منذ ست سنوات means that this happened before, six years ago, and wasn't repeated again until this time.
When I read: didn't witness it six years ago, I think it means "this didn't happen six years ago", which is the opposite of what is said in the Arabic sentence.


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## AndyRoo

cherine said:


> Thanks for the correction


 You're welcome



cherine said:


> When I read: didn't witness it six years ago, I think it means "this didn't happen six years ago", which is the opposite of what is said in the Arabic sentence.


 
Oh, OK thank you for the clarification.

It's interesting because if the sentence was positive, i.e.في خطوة* شهدتها* السجون الاسرائيلية منذ ست سنوات, I think it could mean "in a step which Israeli prisons *witnessed* six years ago", but you say the actual negative sentence can't mean "in a step which Israeli prisons *didn't witness* six years ago."


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## cherine

What I'm saying is this happened six years ago. Then wasn't repeated again till now.

I think the translation you gave in post #4  is accurate:


AndyRoo said:


> "In a step which Israeli prisons have not witnessed for six years [...]


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## elroy

AndyRoo said:


> It's interesting because if the sentence was positive, i.e.في خطوة* شهدتها* السجون الاسرائيلية منذ ست سنوات, I think it could mean "in a step which Israeli prisons *witnessed* six years ago",


 I would not use منذ to express that; I would use قبل.  I don't know if that's just a personal preference, but منذ doesn't sound right to me in that sentence.  What do others think?

Also, to me, يتولى السلطة منذ means "he _has been_ in power for..."

I would tend to use قبل, and not منذ, for one-time events in the past.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> Also, to me, يتولى السلطة منذ means "he _has been_ in power for..."


Sure, but here the verb is in the مضارع ayway.

And I don't know how reliable a reference it is - or how relevant this general statement is to the actual usage of the language - but one of my current books ("الكتاب في تعلّم العربية") says about منذ :





> The English equivalent of منذ depends on the tense of the verbs that precede and follow it. (...)
> 
> أ - والدتي ماتت منذ ثلاث سنوات.... ....
> ب - جدتي تعيش معنا منذ (أن) ماتت والدتي


(they don't provide a translation - you're supposed to do that yourself; but I think the intended meaning of the sentences is clear anyway)

(And for those who haven't noticed yet, I've opened another thread to particularly talk about منذ\قبل in such contexts.)


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## Saudi Muslim

no it doesn't mean to confirm or (witness)

but basicly it means it hasn't occured for the last 6 years


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