# Evolution of consonant+rhotic clusters



## Dymn

All Indo-European languages, or at least those in Europe, seem to include a great variety of consonant+rhotic clusters such as _pr tr kr br dr gr fr vr_, and I don't know any of them which has changed them into something else, even if the rhotic sound itself might have shifted recently in some of these languages...

Is there any example of a language simplifying those clusters? Not necessarily from the Indo-European family. The closest thing I can imagine is -str- > -s- in Galician-Portuguese (_nosso, amossar..._).

Thanks


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## Zec

There is commonly dissimilation or epenthesis in sibilant + rhotic clusters - which is why clusters like _sr_ and _zr_ are not as common as the ones you mentioned. Changes such as _sr_ > _str_, _sr_ > _fr_ or _sr_ > _ʃ_ often happen. The last one happened in a bunch of Iranian languages (something similar is in the process of happening in many varieties of English - listen to how words with _tr _and _dr_ can be pronounced with affricates instead of stops), and Middle Indo-Aryan assimilated all dental + r clusters into retroflexes, while Tibetan assimilated _all_ stop + r clusters into retroflexes.


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## Lusus Naturae

Fredericus > Federico
I'm interested in finding more examples like it.

I have a slightly different question. It's about rhotic+consonant. I saw _Ordessus & Odessus_, but not _Oddessus_. Did Ordessus become Oddessus before becoming Odessus (kinda like ursus > osso > oso)?


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## Dymn

Lusus Naturae said:


> Fredericus > Federico
> I'm interested in finding more examples like it.



In Spanish:

*l and r switched*: _Argelia, milagro, palabra, peligro_
*r dropped:* _Federico, fragancia, orquesta, propio_
*r added*: _estrella_
*r changed place*: _cocodrilo, costra, entregar, preguntar_
*r to l*: _árbol, azul, bolsa, cárcel, Catalina, Cristóbal, escolta, miércoles, papel, quilate, roble, templar, tiniebla_


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## Lusus Naturae

^
Great examples!

How often do consonants other than l become r?

*medidies > meridies
Did medidies become melidies before becoming meridies (like cicada > cicala > cigarra)?


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## danielstan

Romanian (all its dialects: Daco-Romanian, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian) has a phonetic rule that distinguish it in the family of Romance languages:
- intervocalic single *-L-* from Latin > *-R-*
lat. _so*l*em_ > rom. _soa*r*e_
lat. _cae*l*um_ > rom. _ce*r*_
Note: the intervocalic double -LL- > -L-
lat. _pe*ll*em_ > rom. _pie*l*e_ 
I suppose that the distinction -L- vs. -LL- was difficult to maintain and the speakers chose these replacement -L- > -R- (both L and R being liquids) in order to keep this distinction with simplified means.

Another rhotacism in some Romanian dialects is:
*N > R*
In standard Romanian there are few examples:
lat. _fe*n*estra_ > rom. _fe*r*eastră_
lat. _mi*n*utus_ > rom. _mă*r*unt_
But in Istro-Romanian and in the regional Romanian spoken in Maramures (North-West of Romania) this is almost regular:  
lat. _bo*n*um_ > istr. _bu*r*_
lat. _be*n*e_ > istr. _bi*r*e_
lat. _lume*n*_ > istr. _lumi*r*a_
(Istro-Romanian language - Wikipedia)


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## Dymn

There is also z > r as in the early stages of Latin or Germanic.

Rhotacism (sound change) - Wikipedia

Also some Galician dialects change /z/ to [r] at the end of words before voiced consonants I think.


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## Sardokan1.0

In many Sardinian dialects the Latin "Pl or Cl"  has become "Pr and Cr"

_*Latin *- Sardinian (Nuorese - Logudorese - Campidanese)

platea - pratta - piatta - pratza (square) 
ecclesia - cresia - creja, cheja - cresia (church)
florem - frore - fiore - frori (flower)
clavem - crave - jae - crai (key)
cravus - cravu - jau - crau (nail)
oculus - ocru - oju - ogu (eye)
placere - pràghere - piàghere - pràxiri (to like)_

While in some northern Sardinian dialects and also in Gallurese (a Corsican dialect spoken in the north-eastern corner of Sardinia) there is a change from the original R to L.

_Sardigna -> Saldigna
Perdere -> Peldere (to lose)
Surdu -> Suldu (deaf)
Màrtis -> Màltis (Tuesday)
Mèrcuris -> Mèrculis, Mèlculis (Wednesday)_


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## killerbee256

danielstan said:


> lat. _so*l*em_ > rom. _soa*r*e_
> lat. _cae*l*um_ > rom. _ce*r*_


Portuguese does something similar, if in a slightly different situation:
V lat. _b*l*ancus_ > _b*r*anco_
lat. _ob*l*igatus > ob*r*igado_


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## danielstan

The difference between Romanian and other Romance languages is the intervocalic position of single -L- which become intervocalic -R-.
Anyway, L and R are 2 sounds with similarities (they "flow") and there is no surprise for their interchange.
By the way, it happened to me to hear small children pronouncing L instead of R everywhere.
If I well remember, Japanese has a regular transformation L > R for loanwords.


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## Määränpää

From Swedish (IE) into Finnish (non-IE)

prost - rovasti (provost) 
trall - ralli (folk song)
krabba - rapu (crab)
brillor - rillit (eyeglasses)
dräng - renki (farmhand)
grammofon - rammari (gramophone)
franska - ranska (French) 
vrak - raakki (wreck) (hey, the w is silent in the English equivalent!)


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## sound shift

"*Pr*etty" is "*p*e*r*ty" in some US dialects.


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## Cossue

Dymn said:


> Also some Galician dialects change /z/ to [r] at the end of words before voiced consonants I think.



Yep, that's rather common; in fact it has affected the current form of a number of place names:

*Cardalda*, Vilanova de Arousa, Pontevedra < _Casa d'Alde_ 1295
*Cardiguimbra*, Bande, Ourense < *Casa de Guímara
*Cardanachama*, Allariz, Ourense < *Casa de Dona Chamoa < *Casa de Domna Flammula
...


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> Is there any example of a language simplifying those clusters? Not necessarily from the Indo-European family. The closest thing I can imagine is -str- > -s- in Galician-Portuguese (_nosso, amossar..._).



_Nuesu, vuesu _in Eastern Asturian and _nueso, vueso _in Western Aragonese can also be found locally. I also recall it in some Old Spanish poems. Maybe -STR- > -SS- was not that uncommon in some Late Latin forms.


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## Dymn

It's not Old Spanish but _maese Pérez _for example?


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## Penyafort

Dymn said:


> It's not Old Spanish but _maese Pérez _for example?



Clearly. According to Coromines, _maestre _is taken from Catalan or Occitan but _maese _would come from the vocative of MAGISTER. That'd explain why it is not _maeso_.


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## apmoy70

Ιn Greek, the rhotacism l > r before a consonant is a phenomenon regular in demotic MoGr, appearing in occasional form as early as the 2nd c. CE.
The earliest known attestation is the commemorative plaque at the Delphi Oracle, on the occasion of the honorary citizenship bestowed upon the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius (reigned from 161-180 CE):
*«Μ. Αὐρ. Δερφοί πολείτην εποίησαν ἐτείμησαν δὲ καὶ ἀνδριάντος ἀναστάσει»*
"Derphi [Delphi] made M. Aur. a citizen and honoured him with his statue".

Besides the rhotacism of l > r in Δερφοί, one can also see the misspellings of ἐτ*εί*μησαν (instead of ἐτίμησαν) & πολ*εί*την (for πολίτην) which proves the completion of the rising of the diphthong «-ει-» to /i:/ in the Koine Greek of 2nd c. CE.

In demotic MoGr the usage of *«αδερφός»* [aðelˈfos] --> _brother_ for «αδελφός» [aðelˈfos], and *«κόρφος»* [ˈkorfos] instead of «κόλπος» [ˈkolpos] is common.
The Thessalian *«Βούργαρος»* [ˈvurɣaɾos] for «Βούλγαρος» [ˈvulɣaɾos] --> _Bulgarian_,  is also interesting (possibly influenced by the Aromanian change l > r).

One very interesting and uncommon (at least in Greek) rhotacism, is the shift of the intervocalic d > r in the Koine of Pamphylia (Pamphylian Greek).
On an epitaphic plaque found in Aspendos (2nd c. CE) the name of the dead is spelt *«Ἐπιτῑμίρᾱς» Ĕpĭtīmírās* instead of *«Ἐπιτῑμίδᾱς» Ĕpĭtīmídās*, while the Classical v. *«ἀείδω» ăeí̯dō* (<*ἀϝείδω *ăweí̯dō, Attic *«ᾄδω» ắ̩dō*) is *«ἀβήρω» ăbḗrō*.


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## danielstan

apmoy70 said:


> The Thessalian *«Βούργαρος»* [ˈvurɣaɾos] for «Βούλγαρος» [ˈvulɣaɾos] --> _Bulgarian_,  is also interesting (possibly influenced by the Aromanian change l > r).


I guess you are talking about the transformation:
intervocalic single *-L-* > *-R- *
which is present in Daco-Romanian and Aromanian, but is not applicable in your Greek example.
Examples:
lat. _so*l*em _> rom. _soa*r*e_, arom. _soa*r*i_

For the sake of discussion, in Latin the single intervocalic -L- was pronounced differently than the double intervocalic -LL-, i.e. the syllable boundaries were different:
lat. _mo*l*a _[mo-la] > rom. _moa*r*ă _[moa-ră]
lat. _pe*ll*em _[pel-lem] > rom. _pie*l*e _[pie-le]
So, in my opinion, the initial difference in pronunciation was kept in Romanian, but simplified to the difference between intervocalic *-l-* and *-r-.*

Because this phonetic rule is present in all Romanian dialects, we may suppose it was produced before the separation of Aromanian from Daco-Romanian, which is estimated in 10th century (when Byzantine sources mention the arrival of first Vlachs in Salonica and other cities).
By the way, the Aromanian name of Sa*l*onica is Să*r*una ( < lat. _Sa*l*onae_).

The text _Peri Ktismaton/De Aedificiis_ (written by Procop of Caesarea around 560 AD) mentions some Vulgar Latin toponyms in the Balkans which do not have this phonetic change applied:
Dorosto*l*on (in Dobrudja), later named Durosto*r*, Dristo*r*, Dârsto*r* in the Middle Ages.

Also, the vast majority of Slavic loanwords in Romanian do not have the invervocalic* -l-* >* -r-* transformation:
slav. _bo*l*e _> rom. _boa*l*ă_
slav. _mi*l*o _> rom. _mi*l*ă_
slav. _si*l*a _> rom. _si*l*ă_

So, this phonetic change was produced probably between 7th - 10th centuries, but we may not be more precise because the Slavic loanwords could have been imported anytime in these centuries.
At the time the already existing Proto-Romanian language (named also Common Romanian, before the dialectal separation) had a social status less important than the Greek, the official language of Byzantine Empire.
In these conditions is less probable that Greek imported some phonetic change from Aromanian.

In fact many phonetic changes in Aromanian could be traced as originating from Greek.


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## apmoy70

^^Thank you for this, very interesting, but I wonder, if «Βούργαρος» is not influenced by the Aromanian l > r, then how could one explain the Aromanian *Virgaru* (for _Bulgarian_) > Thessalian *«Βούργαρος»*?


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## danielstan

I repeat myself:
the phonetic context of Aromanian and Daco-Romanian *L > R *change is:
vowel +* L * + vowel > vowel +* R* + vowel.
The phonetic context of*«Βούργαρος»*  is different:
vowel + *L* + consonant > vowel + *R* + consonant
In Greek there is also a similar change (I did some googleing, I may have spelling errors):
*A**l**banoi (*Ἀλβανοί*) *> *Arvanite  *(Αρβανίτε)

In order to assess an Aromanian influence of *Virgaru *>   *Βούργαρος*
we need to find a phonetic rule inside Aromanian that would explain *Bulgaru *> *Virgaru *(I don't know other Aromanian examples with such change).
I don't know much Aromanian, I use few online dictionaries when I give examples, but I read Romanian linguistic studies comparing all Romanian dialects and explaining the most important phonetic changes from Vulgar Latin to current days.
I never heard of such change.

In order to assess such an influence we need more examples of Greek loans from Aromanian, otherwise is more probable that Greek gave this word to Aromanian.
The Greek influence on Aromanian (especially its southern dialect) is big in vocabulary and some phonetics.


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## Sardokan1.0

danielstan said:


> *Bulgaru *> *Virgaru*



In Sardinian language there are words where the original U of Latin has become I, like in the example above, and also the phenomenon of betacism B>V or V>B is a very common thing.

*Latin - Sardinian*

_*manducare - mandicare, mandigare* (to eat)
*umbilicus - ìmbilicu, ìmbiligu *(navel)
_


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## OBrasilo

killerbee256 said:
			
		

> Portuguese does something similar, if in a slightly different situation:
> V lat. _b*l*ancus_ > _b*r*anco_
> lat. _ob*l*igatus > ob*r*igado_


There is also _praça_ for town square (Spanish _plaza_), _praia_ for beach (Spanish _playa_), and _prazer_ for enjoyment (Spanish _placer_).



			
				danielstan said:
			
		

> If I well remember, Japanese has a regular transformation L > R for loanwords.


The Japanese sound is somewhere between L and R.


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## OED Loves Me Not

OBrasilo said:


> The Japanese sound is somewhere between L and R.


You're right, I guess. In fact, most Japanese never get to learn to tell L's from R's however hard
they may work to throughout their lives. 

In that connection, I would like to mention an interesting phonetic phenomenon in the Korean language. 
That is, in standard Korean, they always pronounce an L at the end of a word while they always utter 
an R in the middle.

For example, _*Seoul*_ the capital of South Korea is pronounced somewhat 
like English "soul," with the L sound pronounced not much unlike the L in English. But when a suffix
"-eso" comes at the end of the word Seoul, then it becomes SeouR-eso, not SeouL-eso. 
Why? because the sound which used to be at the end of the word Seoul is now in the middle 
(*Seoul-eso), so the L turns into an R, hence "SeouR-eso." 

At the same time, standard speakers of Korean never utter an R sound at the end of a word. If they have to 
choose between an L and an R at the end of a word, they always utter an L. 

I'm not much versed in Korean, so I hope a Korean native speaker will be kind enough to explain the rest.


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## OED Loves Me Not

In various variants of Chinese, I believe that rhotacism has frequently occurred
throughout their history.

Where many Southern variants of Chinese utter a Z sound, mandarin Chinese
utter an R. For example, the set of Chinese characters meaning "Japan" (日本) is pronounced
somewhat like *ziben* in southern variants of Chinese as opposed to something like
*riben* (meaning the same thing) in mandarin Chinese. This R-Z correspondence is seen
everywhere between some southern variants of Chinese and mandarin Chinese.

By the way, the southern variant pronunciation _*ziben*_ quite resembles *Cipangu*,
which word was mentioned to mean Japan in Marco Polo's famous book and is
again transliterated as _*Zipangu*_ elsewhere.


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## OBrasilo

Both _ziben_ and _riben_ are ultimately from _*ndjit-pon_, from where also Japanese _Nihon_ and _Nippon_ (and Korean _Ilbon_), as well as the southeast asian _Jepang_ and _Jepun_ from where all the western names for Japan, including "Japan" itself.


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## Lusus Naturae

grammatica > grammaire, grammar

How rare is t>r?


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## Dymn

Are you sure this is a phonetic change? I would expect it coming from a hypothetic *_grammaria_.


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## berndf

TLF claims_ -atica > -aire_ is a phonetic evolution in French.

GRAMMAIRE : Etymologie de GRAMMAIRE


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## Lusus Naturae

sound shift said:


> "*Pr*etty" is "*p*e*r*ty" in some US dialects.


I saw κράτος - κάρτος, Rolando - Orlando, is metathesis the right term?


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## Perseas

Lusus Naturae said:


> I saw κράτος - κάρτος, Rolando - Orlando, is metathesis the right term?


Yes, in κράτος - κάρτος there is metathesis
I assume the same applies to the English words.


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