# πηλός, άργιλος



## OssianX

Can anyone pinpoint a difference in usage?  In English, "clay" points in two directions, toward gardens and toward statues.  Is either Greek word used more in one context or the other?  My dictionary gives "potter's clay" as a meaning for both words.  I'm wondering if I can read anything into a poet's choice of "πήλινος"; is there an equivalent adjectival form of άργιλος?


----------



## spyroware

Πηλός is the casual name of the word, άργιλος is the formal. For gardens αργιλόχωμα is used more than just άργιλος. Αργιλώδης (αργιλώδες υλικό, χώμα, αργιλώδης σύσταση etc) is rather scientific sounding, a civil engineer would use it, but not you and I. We'd say αμμώδης (sandy) or λασπώδης (muddy) to describe such quality. I also think there are some beauty products that contain άργιλο, but the hair product is πηλός. Πηλός has little to do with statues in Greek (we got marble for that ). It's mainly associated with pottery. Vases, vessels, fireproof pots, those things you put crème brûlée in etc. The adjective πήλινος can be used as a noun to denote those things too. 

So, about your question, you'd want to use πήλινος or, to be more poetic, as a crappy Greek song goes, "σώμα φτιαγμένο από πηλό". It does sound more metaphorical than πήλινος.


----------



## OssianX

Extremely helpful -- thanks, spyroware!

I'm going the other way: working on a Ritsos poem in which he mentions "τις δυό πήλινες Καρυάτιδες όρθιες / απ’ τις δυό πλευρές της εισόδου."  The question is how to translate "πήλινες."  "Clay" is the obvious (and what Edmund Keeley uses), but I'm shying away from it -- "earthen" is my current choice -- and trying to understand exactly why I feel that.  You've helped.


----------



## spyroware

Somehow I thought you wanted to translate "clay' to Greek, that's why I rambled about the different hues between πηλός and άργιλος, but anyway. 

Aparently google didn't give me the poem, but I guess that Ritsos wants to give sentiments to the statues. The real Caryatides are from marble that is just stone, it conveys this coldness, lack of emotion, clay on the other hand is soil, it comes from the earth, it has this warmth (getting too biblical here lol). So yes earthen would totally be the better choice, much more lyrical.

Also I have to say that I don't know why you're translating Ritsos but I always believed the best way to learn a language is to 'try' translating poetry. It's the best way to learn the 'sound' of the words and to differentiate synonyms and the like. I used to translate Blake and Wordsworth to Greek on my own while I was in high school. And I had a lot of educational fun actually.


----------



## XiaoRoel

In my translation to _gallego_ I translated πήλινες by “_térreas_” (of earth):
as dúas rectas cariátides térreas / en entrambas as dúas bandas do adro.


----------



## Cynastros

Πηλός κεραμικός  - κής.  { επεξεργασμένη ύλη }
  Τροχός κεραμικός – κής.
  Άργιλος  - λευκάργιλος ,  για την κατασκευή σπιτιών – αχυρόπλινθων.  { φυσική ανεπεξέργαστη ύλη }


----------



## an-alfabeto

OssianX, *where* are the Caryatides? In a temple, a monument, a house? As it has been said above, they are normally made from marble, but there have been found *earthen* (from earth clay) too. Without more context, I think that in the poem you are translating, they are merely decorative elements and not solid pillars. I cannot find any photo, it’s not something very usual, but here you’ve got one with clayey decorative pillars. With a little bit of effort you can imagine Caryatides instead of the pillars. 

In ceramics, _άργιλ(λ)ος_ is the white clay. There is the MG adj. _αργιλόπλαστος_, but it’s not very common and it doesn’t figure in most dictionaries. 
_Πηλός_ is the earth color clay.


----------



## OssianX

I think you're exactly right, an-alfabeto.  In the poem, the speaker is a little contemptuous of "τα γκρεμισμένα σπίτια" and of "τ’ άλλα / που πρόκειται να γκρεμιστούν, εκείνα / με τις δυό πήλινες Καρυάτιδες όρθιες / απ’ τις δυό πλευρές της εισόδου."

After a lot of thought (and work on a footnote trying to explain why I didn't want to use "clay"), I've decided to translate the line as: "with the two pottery Karyatids erect."  A little odd, I know, but I think the rhythm conveys the tone.

Thanks again to all! If these translations ever see the light of day (I'm having some trouble getting the permissions negotiated), it will be with grateful acknowledgment to users on this great list.


----------



## an-alfabeto

OssianX said:


> After a lot of thought (and work on a footnote trying to explain why I didn't want to use "clay"), I've decided to translate the line as: "with the two pottery Karyatids erect." A little odd, I know, but I think the rhythm conveys the tone.


 
I thought that earthen also means “from clay”. I have related “pottery” with small ceramic objects. Am I wrong on that?


----------



## OssianX

You're more or less right.  "Pottery" is rarely used as an adjective (OED doesn't list it as one), except as part of compounds ("pottery ware" and so on).  But it's a small stretch, one I think any reader will make without thinking about it, to hear it as an adjective of material (like "metal," "stone," etc).  Used that way of a presumably life-size statue, it's also belittling in tone.

"Earthen" was a more accurate translation, and I stuck with it for a while.  But sound, connotation, and rhythm are also essential factors.  The trick, to my mind, is to produce the image in the reader's mind -- which requires _sufficient_ accuracy, not necessarily _maximum_ accuracy -- and at the same time to sustain the tone and the sonic and rhythmic continuity of the poem.  Always a juggling act on every level, of course.


----------

