# BCS - Adjective forms (longer)



## Tassos

A couple of points concerning this form:

1) When the adjective substitutes a noun it is _required.

_If I got this right this means that in the following construction you _have to_ use the longer form.

- Za koga si govorio?
- Za visokoga.

(btw I just came up with this example - I didn't read it in a book, so it may sound totally weird. I was looking for an example with a case where the distinction between long and longer form is clear) 

2) It is used for emphasis

3) It is used more in Croatian (in her final sociolinguistic commentary R. Alexander says that Croatians would rather say *Gramatika francuskoga jezika* than *Gramatika francuskog jezika*) 

4) Also in Croatian the -e extension in Dat/Loc Sing carries locative meaning while the -u extension carries dative meaning

Are these points correct and is there something else I should know about this particular form?

Thank you.


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## Brainiac

May I be the first to reply?  I'm learning with you too. 

1. Well, it makes sense, but I'm not sure that it's a "must".
 - Kom si dao knjigu?
 - Onom ćelavom. (in conversation) (Ćelavom bre! / Onom bre ćelavom - even more often)
ili
 - Ćelavome. (This is rarer, at least in everyday speech, but here adjective serves as a noun/pronoun and marks a person with bold head, not boldness, except if 
a. the person has nickname _Ćelavi_ (Dao sam Ćelavom), like a red-hair woman is Crvena and 
b. we all know who we talk about, so just "Ćelavom", shorter version - we know who's the guy. But if we don't know the person, just _Ćelavom_ sounds incomplete, something must follow it, for example - _Ćelavom u plavoj majici/ Ćelavom u prvom redu / Ćelavom čoveku u plavoj majici iz prvog reda_ )

2) It may emphasis the adjective "pinpoints" a noun (person in your example), but... not necessary.... I would say there are plenty other "methods" to emphasis something (order of words, word tone, "input" of other words/expressions to stress the meaning of the sentence etc.)

3) I have NEVER heard here *Gramatika francuskoga jezika*. (Ok, maybe I heard now and then, but it's absolutely odd)
(Now I remember one exapmle - in cursing: Franskoga li mu jezika!)

4) For example?


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## Duya

I would hardly ever use a long form (Serbian speaker of Bosnian origin). Maybe in situation 1, or if I write a particularly poetic text. All your examples sound like formal Croatian to me.


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## DenisBiH

Where Bosnian is concerned, some, but not all, post-1990 linguists and authors in general prefer the longer forms (francuskoga, francuskome) in writing. In spoken everyday Bosnian mostly shorter forms (francuskog, francuskom) are used, at least in Sarajevo. 

Those -u forms (francuskomu) on the other hand aren't used much. Personally I consider -u forms Croatisms.


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## Anicetus

First of all, just to make it clear, these variations have nothing to do with definiteness and indefiniteness. All the forms discussed in this thread are definite -- _visokog_ and _visokoga_ are both genitive forms of _visoki_, while the standard genitive of _visok_ would be _visoka_ (not used that often, but more about that in the other thread).

Furthermore, you'll probably like to hear that the usage of this kind of longer forms is completely (or almost completely) arbitrary. 

As for particular points...

1) That is what the Croatian language police recommends, but it's not absolutely necessary in practice. I admit I've hardly ever heard _kom_ (as the dative form of _(t)ko_), but there's nothing odd about _za visokog_. 

2) I agree with Brainiac. R. Alexander's statement is correct, but it doesn't mean emphasis can't be put on a shorter adjective form.

3) I think this is true -- they're used in Croatia more than elsewhere. However, while there are indeed dialects which have only longer forms, it doesn't mean that most people in Croatia use the longer forms more commonly than the shorter ones in their everyday speech. It's mostly a matter of style. Longer forms are usually used consistently when one wants to show that they pay much attention to their expression or to sound literary and so on. Writing a text exclusively with shorter forms may make it sound either more casual or laconic. Supposing your example were a book title, for instance, _Gramatika francuskoga jezika_ could be seen as more appropriate. Shorter forms are frequently used in Croatia, but I wouldn't dismiss the longer ones as odd either.

4) Same as 1) -- it's a recommendation from the language police, not a strict rule, generally obeyed in a groomed style. 



Brainiac said:


> 4) For example?


 - Komu si dao knjigu?
 - Onomu ćelavomu.

 - O kome si pričao?
 - O onome ćelavom.


As you probably know, adjectives and pronouns with the ending _-em_ in dative/locative singular (ie. mostly those with a stem ending in a palatal) can only take _-u_, not _-e_. Some pronouns almost always take the longer forms, for example _(t)ko, što, sve_ (when used in the meaning of "everything"), _on_ (usually _čemu, svemu_ and _njemu_ even in the locative). I'd say longer forms are used for short pronouns and adjectives more often than for longer ones (such as _moga, tvoga, toga_ -- but it's not that shorter forms aren't used). In moderately "groomed" Croatian the extension is usually placed on the first adjective/pronoun when there are more of them in a row (_onoga ćelavog čovjeka_). They can also be used to avoid some awkward consonant sequences (_ovoga grada, po mome mišljenju_).

The longer genitive form is older, while the shorter one was created simply by eliding the final _a_, hence the preference of longer forms in a literary style. Likewise, _visokomu_ was originally dative and _visokom_ was locative; _-u_ became "an extension" once these two cases had been (nearly) merged. The extension _-e_ was probably optional in locative, though I don't know where it comes from. It can be appended to some instrumental singular forms as well (_kime, čime, njime, njome, svime_), so I guess it's just an extra vowel (for easier pronunciation, perhaps) without a specified meaning. Maybe the forms with _-u_ are used chiefly in Croatia nowadays, but they certainly weren't made up by Croats.


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## DenisBiH

Anicetus said:


> In moderately "groomed" Croatian the extension is usually placed on the first adjective/pronoun when there are more of them in a row (_onoga ćelavog čovjeka_).



Same in Bosnian, for those who use longer forms in writing. Perhaps the only difference is that, at least in my opinion, placing the extension only on the first adjective/pronoun isn't marked as being "moderately groomed" here, but rather as a matter of (good) style.

Here are a few examples by Senahid Halilović (he and Dževad Jahić were and still are the two most prominent Bosnian linguists in charge of post-1990 standardization):



> Mula-Mustafa Ševki Bašeskija rođen je u Sarajevu, 1731. ili 1732. godine; nakon *osnovnoga mektepskog* obrazovanja izučio je kazaski zanat, kojim se poslije nije zanimao.





> Bašeskijina pjesma na našem jeziku (Pjesma o dobrim poslovima; Ljetopis, 364-365) u prvome stihu ima zamjenicu tko. Oblici tipa tko, netko prisutni su, i dosta rasprostranjeni i u naše vrijeme u dijelu ijekavskošćakavskih sjeveroistočnobosanskih govora (uz rijeku Bosnu, duž *cijeloga njenog* toka...


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## Anicetus

DenisBiH said:


> Same in Bosnian, for those who use longer forms in writing. Perhaps the only difference is that, at least in my opinion, placing the extension only on the first adjective/pronoun isn't marked as being "moderately groomed" here, but rather as a matter of (good) style.



That was pretty much my point, perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best. I said "moderately" because there are actually enthusiasts who just place the extension everywhere (which is, in my opinion, overdoing the "grooming").


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## Brainiac

Anicetus said:


> 1) That is what the Croatian language police recommends, but it's not absolutely necessary in practice. I admit I've hardly ever heard _kom_ (as the dative form of _(t)ko_), but there's nothing odd about _za visokog_.



Language police? Do they arrest people?  They are something like watchdogs....  (Oh, then you are advanced....)

_Kom_ is quite common in everyday speech here (_Kome_ is the standard one).
On the other hand, I admit I've hardly ever heard _Komu_, I agree -u forms must be Croatism. I have never said this word in my life.



Anicetus said:


> Maybe the forms with _-u_ are used chiefly in Croatia nowadays, but they certainly weren't made up by Croats.


Neither by Serbs. Maybe the Vikings invented it.... 


The longer form I heard in some exclamations of surprise/disbelief, or in old stories.
_Ćelavoga li čoveka! Teškoga li pitanja!
Na belome svetu tri brata siromaha behu.... _(duboko ozbiljan ili "kitnjasto-svečani" stil, kako za koga...)


And "cijeloga njenog toka" is again... somehow strange to me, but I've heard it somewhere. I remember I asked myself why it wasn't _cijelog*a* njenog*a* toka_, if there was that additional "a" - why the whole structure didn't take the letter ....


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## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> Language police? Do they arrest people?  They are something like watchdogs....  (Oh, then you are advanced....)



It was supposed to be a sarcastic designation, but now I've found out on Wikipedia that some countries actually do have something like that... Language prescriptivists can't really arrest people in Croatia, but they probably wish they could. 



> _Kom_ is quite common in everyday speech here (_Kome_ is the standard one).
> On the other hand, I admit I've hardly ever heard _Komu_, I agree -u forms must be Croatism. I have never said this word in my life.



_Kome_ is also very common over here, probably more common than _komu_, which is a more literary form.



> Neither by Serbs. Maybe the Vikings invented it....



Some would probably claim ancient Iranians did.


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## Tassos

Anicetus said:


> Furthermore, you'll probably like to hear that the usage of this kind of longer forms is completely (or almost completely) arbitrary.



Good. Because that's how I intend to use them. 



Anicetus said:


> As you probably know, adjectives and pronouns with the ending _-em_ in dative/locative singular (ie. mostly those with a stem ending in a palatal) can only take _-u_, not _-e_. Some pronouns almost always take the longer forms, for example _(t)ko, što, sve_ (when used in the meaning of "everything"), _on_ (usually _čemu, svemu_ and _njemu_ even in the locative). I'd say longer forms are used for short pronouns and adjectives more often than for longer ones (such as _moga, tvoga, toga_ -- but it's not that shorter forms aren't used).



Interesting to know. Although my questions concern mainly the so-called "descriptive" adjectives. For pronouns and the such, in a later thread. 



Anicetus said:


> In moderately "groomed" Croatian the extension is usually placed on the first adjective/pronoun when there are more of them in a row (_onoga ćelavog čovjeka_). They can also be used to avoid some awkward consonant sequences (_ovoga grada, po mome mišljenju_).
> 
> 
> DenisBiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same in Bosnian, for those who use longer forms  in writing. Perhaps the only difference is that, at least in my  opinion, placing the extension only on the first adjective/pronoun isn't  marked as being "moderately groomed" here, but rather as a matter of (good) style.
Click to expand...


Didn't know that. Thanks.



Brainiac said:


> _Kom_ is quite common in everyday speech here (_Kome_ is the standard one).



Gugl translejt didn't recognise kom. It just left it kom.


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## Brainiac

Tassos said:


> Gugl translejt didn't recognise kom. It just left it kom.



Ne, gugl prevodilac ne zna sve.  

Edit: GT does translate _kom_ - not correctly, but you can grasp the meaning.
GT-Croatian: U kom rječniku je to? - "Which dictionary is it?" Alternative for _which_: "in which", "in what", "at what", "to which".
GT-Croatian: U kom rečniku je to? - "In what vocabulary is it?" 
GT- Serbian: U kom rečniku je to? - "When the dictionary is that?" Alternative for _when:_ the same above


Kao pitanje - kom si... u kom si....
kom si 356.000 rezultata (*sa navodnicima). Da li je dovoljno?

Sigurno si čuo za izraz: *U kom si filmu?

*_Mala, gledaj *kom* si srce dala, 
taj ti nikad neće reći hvala...._


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## Tassos

Iva, veruj mi, ja ti verujem  - I was just saying...


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## Brainiac

Tassos said:


> Iva, veruj mi, ti verujem  - I was just saying...


Verujem ti Atanasije (naša verzija tvog imena ). (Ovo je bilo delom i za papu (?) Anicetusa  tj. Ανίκητος )

Uzgred:
Ti verujem  
*Ja* ti verujem ili *verujem ti* (<-- word order).

Rekoh ti da treba da pišeš na BCS a ne na engleskom, koliko god možeš, moraš da pričaš i pišeš na jeziku koji učiš, a ove mini lekcije iz gramatike da budu kao dodatak.


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