# Urdu, Hindi: origin & range of aap V-o (aap+"tum" verb form)



## marrish

Split from this thread: Hindi: Use of Verb Forms of 'Tum' with the 'Aap' and this: Urdu / Hindi: Aap + verb stem + e(n)

These threads discuss several matters i.a. subjunctive and degrees of politeness etc. Although mentioned here and there, the subject at hand, the origin and geographical range of usage of this kind of construction where the honorific personal pronoun *aap* appears to be used within a syntax in agreement with *tum*, has not been explored thoroughly enough.

It deserves to be brought more into the spotlight by devoting a thread wholly to it. 

The aim of this thread is to meet this need and it is open to both Urdu and Hindi speakers since this phenomenon is in existence in both languages.

Some examples to illustrate this usage: 

_aap kidhar jaa rahe ho?
aap aisaa na(h) karo!
_
In both sentences, according to standard grammar it ought to be either

_tum kidhar jaa rahe ho? tum aisaa na(h) karo/(karnaa)!    _or_
aap kidhar jaa rahe haiN? aap aisaa na(h) kiijiye/(kareN/karnaa)_******​
As generally known, this usage is widespread. I would be glad if all of you could help me to trace the origins of it and draw a picture of its geographical occurrence. 

Let me begin with the very old post from the beginning of one of the referred threads.


lcfatima said:


> *Under Punjabi influence, I generally hear aap + ho imperative constructions in place of this e(n) one, I heard this a lot in India as well.



*Hypothesis 1): Punjabi influence*
Since Punjabi does not normally have honorific _aap_ and uses instead similar verbal form with _tusiiN_ (_tusiiN karo_) the most popular and widespread opinion which I heard and read in a range of sources is that it is due to Punjabi influence.

*Hypothesis 2): Delhi speech*
This is also heard frequently, backed by the excerpt from an old book (QP SaaHib, would you please quote it here?).

I heard it from Rajasthanis. There are instances of people who don't come from Delhi nor Punjab who use it, likes of Iftikhar Arif and Shamsur Rahman Faruqi.

Can we have all the instances gathered here to begin with?


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## Wolverine9

I will add a third hypothesis to what you've mentioned: *3) influence from regional dialects*

I think the *correct* answer is a combination of all three hypotheses.

Khari Boli and a few other dialects have the _aap + haiN/kareN_ type of construction, but others only have the _tum + ho/karo_ construction.  So when speakers of these dialects and Punjabi spoke Khari Boli, they also used _aap_, but kept the_ ho/karo_ form that they were familiar with. This has led to the widespread use of the_ aap + ho/karo_ form instead of _aap + haiN/kareN_.  The process may have been facilitated in Delhi because it has always been an influential metropolitan city that attracted immigrants from various places.


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## Qureshpor

Here are a few relevant posts which indicate that this phenomenon is in existence in both India and Pakistan and that the formation exists due to Punjabi influence.


Illuminatus said:


> Just to explain _icfatima's_ comment, the use of the verb forms of _Tum_ with the subject _Aap_ in a semi-formal situation is quite common in colloquial language, but will not be prescribed in grammar books.





Illuminatus said:


> I don't have an authentic source at hand, but I am almost sure that it won't be considered as an official feature of the language.
> 
> However, I will assert that it is quite indispensable in day to day communication (in the present era).





achax said:


> IcFatima is correct. In fact to use Aap kahan ja rahe ho may pass in some parts of India, esp In Delhi, Haryana and places with Panjabi influence but it marks one out as not fully educated and would be frowned upon in UP.
> 
> It is always better to use the correct Aap kahan ja rahe hain or Aap kahan ja raheen hain as IcFatima suggests.





lcfatima said:


> In Pakistani Punjab it is common to hear aap + ho among well educated people. People's ears are very keen to markers of class and education, but aap ho sounds friendly, unpretentious, and welcoming. However, for educated muhajirs from "pure" Urdu speaking backgrounds, it is considered to be a marker of lack of refinement.
> 
> My SIL's (jaithani---not a relative but married into the khaandaan) family is Punjabi origin, educated, monied, etc. and they say aap + ho. My MIL is from Lucknow originally, and she instructs my SIL not to use that and says it grates on her ears to hear my SIL speak with her own mother. I use it because I learned Urdu mainly around Punjabi speakers, and seem to be surrounded by them, so it is natural and acceptable in my social milieu and fits in with the Punjabi lahja (style). So, it depends on ethnic/regional origin on whether it is okay or not. In India, I think it it is the same thing, in some regions it is acceptable even for well educated people in informal situations (Rajasthan, Punjabified Delhi, etc.), but for other areas it is a marker of lower class/lack of refinement. I think in some social contexts with people who commonly used aap+ho with friends, in daily life, aap+hai(n) sounds a bit stiff and too formal. So for a high level non-native speaker like myself, it is perfectly natural for me to adjust to my speaking context so as not to sound like a school book.
> 
> On your commands, in Punjab, aap +baitho is fine, but with many U.P. type people in Pakistan and also when attempting to be formal, Pakistanis would say:
> 
> aap baithe(n) rather than aap baithiye.


Here is an example from an educated Lakhnavi speaker.


Qureshpor said:


> Here is at least one example of a highly educated Lakhnavi, namely Iftikhar Arif using the "aap...ho" form! Please see on Youtube "Jashn-e-Iftikhar Arif" part III at 1:04:32 when he says...
> 
> "aap dunyaa ko Khuub-suurat dekhnaa chaahte ho...aap dunyaa ko tabdiil karnaa chaah rahe ho..".


Here, a writer of an Urdu grammar book, himself hailing from the Punjab is suggesting that this phenomenon has its origins in Delhi.


Qureshpor said:


> In the book entitled, "The Modern Hindustani Scholar or The Pucca Munshi" by Munshi Thakardass Pahwa" published in 1919 on page 194 the author says..
> 
> "Note- Occasionally in Delhi it is given the declension of the second person, plural, but this is not so elegant. For instance they say, "aap kahaaN jaa,oge" instead of "aap kahaaN jaa,eNge" for "Where will you go, Sir".
> 
> The author, from what I can gather was himself from Jhelum, Punjab. If this form was known in the Punjab in his time, he would not have singled out Delhi. At least this is how I understand it.


One of my latest posts in another thread.


Qureshpor said:


> One of my university friends is an Urdu speaker from Indore, India and his in-laws are from Hyderabad, India. Today, he visited us with his family including his mother in-law. She is 86 years of age. I was paying particular attention to the Urdu speech of my friend's wife and his mother-in-law. On one occasion the wife said "aap piyo" and on the other occasion, the mother-in-law said, "aap fikar nah karo".


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## mundiya

I don't know about the origin of the "aap karo" or "aap ho" phrase, or its frequency in different communities, but I can say with certainty that it is very common among Punjabis so lcfatima jii is correct in her observations and wolverine jii's explanation is also good.

If Pahwa's assertion is true, it would mean the phrase spread northwest from Delhi throughout Punjab in a short span of about 28 years at most (in order to account for the Pakistani evidence of its usage).


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> I don't know about the origin of the "aap karo" or "aap ho" phrase, or its frequency in different communities, but I can say with certainty that it is very common among Punjabis so lcfatima jii is correct in her observations and wolverine jii's explanation is also good.
> 
> If Pahwa's assertion is true, it would mean the phrase spread northwest from Delhi throughout Punjab in a short span of about 28 years at most (in order to account for the Pakistani evidence of its usage).


It would be interesting to know which speech varieties have aap + kareN combination equivalent (just to use "karnaa" for argument sake) and which have "tum + karo" combination. 

Secondly, If we are saying 1947-1919 = 28 years, I think it would be fair to say that if speakers of "aap + karo" migrated from the Delhi area, it would have taken some additional time for this phenomenon to spread. It could n't just have happened on 14th or 15th August 1947. Finally, one still is left with the 86 year old Hyderabadi Urdu speaking lady who, as far as I know, never ventured outside Hyderabad from the age of 2. How does one explain her "aap + karo"?


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## littlepond

Little 2 cents from littlepond: While it is the experience of anyone who has interacted with (at least Eastern) Punjabis that the "aap karo" is very common in the community, I think the usage has spread a lot mainly to avoid awkward situations: there are often times when a person doesn't want to be too formal yet cannot be informal and is in a fix, and so such constructions are devised. For example, if someone were talking to his brother-in-law, say 5 years older: it would be strange (for me at least) to use "aap", but if the brother-in-law expects it, maybe the person will then resort to "aap karo" construction.

I don't think on a forum which a few Urdu and Hindi members visit, the geographic area of this usage can be determined: that requires a lot of fieldwork. Plus, Hindi being a commonly understood, modified and spoken language, anything travels fast. So I would suggest, though without any fieldwork basis, that the usage has to be common anywhere where Hindi and Urdu are spoken: maybe quite less in places like Rajasthan, where language tends to be more pure, and more in areas influenced by Punjab (like Delhi) and in the Deccan, where standard grammar is not always followed. Just yesterday, I got to read in some Hindi forum "kyaa raapchiik lag rahii hai": the word "raapchiik" (here, meaning "hot" for a girl) has become so common among Hindi-speaking youngsters, that it's a wonder to think that maybe fifteen years back, the word didn't exist in (spoken) Hindi at all.


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## Qureshpor

littlepond said:


> Little 2 cents from littlepond: While it is the experience of anyone who has interacted with (at least Eastern) Punjabis that the "aap karo" is very common in the community, I think the usage has spread a lot mainly to avoid awkward situations: there are often times when a person doesn't want to be too formal yet cannot be informal and is in a fix, and so such constructions are devised. For example, if someone were talking to his brother-in-law, say 5 years older: it would be strange (for me at least) to use "aap", but if the brother-in-law expects it, maybe the person will then resort to "aap karo" construction.[..]


I can understand the logic behind the possible reason for the use of "aap karo" form. I thought it might have started with adults wishing to teach children the "aap" pronoun but at the same time could not get themselves to resort to "kareN" or "kijiye". 

Apart from these possible reasons for this form springing into existence, we have been informed that it is possibly due to the speaker's source language only having "karo" and not kareN/kiijiye. Punjabi is one such language. What other languages are there which have only the "karo" form? If Punjabis have started using "aap karo", what has triggered our Delhi brethren of old to employ this form, as indicated by Munshi Thakardass Pahwa? What is the link between Hyderabadi Urdu speakers and Delhi speakers and indeed anyone whose language has "karo" form only? Lots of questions but no answers!


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## littlepond

^ I don't think there is a link: in the Deccan, [the Urdu] grammar is different, being influenced by Telugu and Kannada. A lot of things become masculine, "kareN" vanishes, pronunciations become like what you may have heard from the old comedian Mahmood, and so on.


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## Qureshpor

^ ^ I believe there is a link between the Urdu speakers of the Deccan and Delhi but we shall see how this thread develops. I don't know any Telegu and Kannada but from what little exposure I've had with Hydarabadis, apart from certain differences I did not notice anything that sounded to me if it was something external. Of course there is bound to be influence of neighbouring languages on one another. But, this is perhaps a separate issue.


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## marrish

Thank you for your contributions so far; I do hope there are still other people watching this thread and that they might come to share their experiences. Through this thread I would like to ascertain what is really behind it and more opinions are likely as it is a phenomenon that is very popular and I dare say, more in Hindi than in Urdu, according to my experience.

I thank you QP for meticulously having whisked out the relevant post because they are important to this thread.

I gave as a first hypothesis the Punjabi influence because it is to be heard everywhere but I am grateful to Wolverine9 for presenting other views. It's a pity s/he wasn't able to make a clear statement but I believe at this point it is not possible.

As I have repeatedly made known my opinion that I don't believe Punjabi is so influential that it can affect hundred of millions speakers spread in at least two countries on thousands of miles distance, let it be no secret that I don't believe in this theory.
I mentioned Rajashtanis that use it, others Hyderabadis and Delhites, let me add it used to be common in Karachi. In another thread Faylasoof SaaHib mentioned having heard it in NWFP (nowadays KhPK). 

Has anyone heard it in the eastern parts of the subcontinent? East UP, Bihar, Bengal, Bangladesh?

Special request for attention: Chhaatr SaaHib, are you familiar with it?


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> ^ ^ I believe there is a link between the Urdu speakers of the Deccan and Delhi but we shall see how this thread develops. I don't know any Telegu and Kannada but from what little exposure I've had with Hydarabadis, apart from certain differences I did not notice anything that sounded to me if it was something external. Of course there is bound to be influence of neighbouring languages on one another. But, this is perhaps a separate issue.



It's tricky business to tie ethnicity and language together, but my understanding is that most Urdu speakers of the Deccan have their origins in northern India.  When their ancestors migrated to Hyderabad and other southern cities, it's possible they brought the "aap karo" form with them.  But that still doesn't reveal what northern area the phrase originated: Delhi, Punjab, or elsewhere?


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## mundiya

Littlepond jii, do you agree with achax jii's comments that it's not as common in UP and would be frowned upon?  If that is the case, it would point to a non-UP origin.

Quresh jii and Marrish jii, is "aap karo" more common among Punjabis in Pakistan compared to other communities?  NWFP and Karachi also have significant Punjabi populations.


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## marrish

mundiya said:


> Littlepond jii, do you agree with achax jii's comments that it's not as common in UP and would be frowned upon?  If that is the case, it would point to a non-UP origin.
> 
> Quresh jii and Marrish jii, is "aap karo" more common among Punjabis in Pakistan compared to other communities?  NWFP and Karachi also have significant Punjabi populations.


I don't think its more common in Pakistan amongst different communities when they speak Urdu; I said before that I was under the impression that it is more common in Hindi although Punjab is more than half territory of Pakistan and of India maybe some percents. 

You are right, there are Punjabis in every city of Pakistan; in Pakistan it would be simple to say that Punjabis are majority (they are) that's why this form is there but in India it is not so and this form is more spread and more used (in my experience).


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## littlepond

mundiya said:


> Littlepond jii, do you agree with achax jii's comments that it's not as common in UP and would be frowned upon?



I completely agree; in fact, in the whole traditional Hindi heartland, it is not that common: of course, there are some (and considering the huge population of the Hindi heartland, "some" is a lot as well) who do use it even there, but as a proportion, just based on experience, it is used much less - in UP, Bihar, MP, Rajasthan (which I'm calling the Hindi heartland here).


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## Dib

marrish said:


> Has anyone heard it in the eastern parts of the subcontinent? East UP, Bihar, Bengal, Bangladesh?



Bihar: The -o form exists, but the -iye and -iyegaa forms in imperative, and the -eN forms otherwise are  probably more common. Incidentally, one of my first Hindi "teachers"  (i.e. friends who helped me with the language) was from Bihar, and he  explicitly taught me "aap karte ho", though I knew from books that it  was "_wrong_". He explained: "That's how people speak". He was also Urdu-educated, if that is relevant.

For  Bengal/Bangladesh: I am not aware of any (more or less) uniform  "traditional" variety of Hindi/Urdu spoken by Bengalis themselves, but  big cities (e.g. Kolkata and Dhaka), of course, have many Hindi/Urdu  speakers (in Kolkata, I think about 35% are non-Bengali and Old Dhaka  also has a - now moribund - Urdu tradition hailing from the Mughal  times). Therefore it is spoken there, even by Bengalis (for whom it is  purely a street lingo) to a limited extent. However, pretty much all  long-term residents of Kolkata also speak Bengali quite well. As a  result, I hardly ever need to speak Hindi there, leading to my  relatively bad acquaintance with the Kolkata Hindi/Urdu. Still, my  observation is that the dominant Hindi variety in Kolkata seems to be  Bihari Hindi, spoken  by the many "immigrants" from rural Bihar-Jharkhand-Eastern UP. Marwaris  also seem to have adapted to this version. Bengalis seem to have  traditionally approximated/pidginized this version, but these days many  Bengalis speak other forms of Hindi, depending on their own personal  history (living outside Bengal, etc.) There also exists a large Urdu  speaking population who came to Kolkata with Wajed Ali Shah.  Unfortunately, my acquaintence with their language is even worse: the  few people, I have met, spoke excellent Bengali (unfortunately  ).


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> It's tricky business to tie ethnicity and language together, but my understanding is that most Urdu speakers of the Deccan have their origins in northern India.  When their ancestors migrated to Hyderabad and other southern cities, it's possible they brought the "aap karo" form with them.  But that still doesn't reveal what northern area the phrase originated: Delhi, Punjab, or elsewhere?


Thank you. This is exactly what I had in mind. 

Agreed once again. I wish Munshi Thakardass Pahwa had provided little more information rather than a mere observation.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Agreed once again. I wish Munshi Thakardass Pahwa had provided little more information rather than a mere observation.


Munshi has made only a side-note but there is a whole chapter on Bhopali Urdu by Dr. (late) Gyan Chand Jain in which he stated that this regional variety is characterised by the usage 'aap V-o'. Quite far away from Punjab or Delhi.
_
   khaRii bolii yaa hiNdustaanii yaa urduu ne isii tarH muxtalif shahroN meN apnaa Deraa jamaa liyaa hae. un meN se kuchh ziyaadah aham haiN aur un meN se ek bhopaal hae. yahaaN kii 3ilaaqaa’ii zabaan ko ham urduu kii bhopaalii Zailii bolii yaa ixtiSaar ke saath bhopaalii urduu kah sakte haiN. yih paas paRos ke qaSboN masal-an siihuur, aashTah, raa’e siin, begam ganj wa Ghairah meN bolii jaatii hae. bhopaal maalwe kaa juzw hae go bundelkhanD ke DaaNDe ko bhii chuutaa hae. maalwe kaa markazii HiSSah bikramaajiit ke ujjain raajah bhoj ke dhaar, maaz bahaadur ke maaNDaw aur ahliyyah baa’ii ke indaur par mushtamal hae lekin riwaayat ke mutaabiq bhopaal bhii dhaar waale raajah bhoj kaa basaayaa hu’aa bhoj paal hae.
*   is 3ilaaqe kii bolii maalwii hae jo raajasthaanii kii ek Zailii bolii hae*. yahaaN ke hiNduu seThoN kii pagRii aur un kii 3auratoN kaa libaas bhopaal aur raajasthaan kii mumaasilat ke shaahid haiN. yih wasii3 3ilaaqah urduu kaa nahiiN jis tarH registaan ke biich naxlistaan hotaa hae usii tarH maalwii ke samaNdar meN bhopaal aur chand duusre qaSbe urduu ke jaziire haiN. shahr se qaSbaat aur qaSbaat se dehaat kii taraf ko jaa’iye, ba-tadriij urduu kaa asar kam aur maalwii kaa asar ziyaadah hotaa hae. bhopaal meN bhii nichle tabqe ke hinduu masal-an duudh waale, kumhaar (bho’ii) wa Ghairah urduu par maalwii kii tah chaRhaa kar bolte haiN.
*   bhopaal bamba’ii kii nisbat dillii se qariib tar hae lekin tahZiibii aur tijaaratii ta3alluqaat bamba’ii se ziyaadah haiN is liye bhopaal kii zabaan kisii qadr bambaiyyaa urduu se bhii muta’aassar hae. ya3nii bhopaal kii zabaan wuh urduu hae jis par thoRaa thoRaa maalwii, bundelii aur bamba’ii kii hindustaanii kaa asar hae*. ahl-e-bhopaal ko us kaa shu3uur nah ho gaa lekin yuu pii se aane waaloN ko mi3yaarii urduu se ixtilaafaat baadiiunnazar hii meN dikhaa’ii de jaate haiN. unhiiN ixtilaafaat kaa naam bhopaalii urduu hae. un meN se xaas xaas yih haiN:

*Sautii* *_(phonetic)_*:*
_

_yaa-e-liin ko yaa-e-majhuul bolnaa masalan zamiir mutakallam, maiN, aur paisah ko fatH-e-awwal kii bajaa’e kasrah-e-awwal se adaa kartaa jis se zamiir ‘’maiN’’ kii aawaaz Harf-e-jaar ‘’meN” (andar) jaisii ho jaatii hae. yih nazlah aNgrezii alfaaz par bhii paRtaa hae masal_an waesT (West) ba-ma3nii maGhrib ko "Waste" ba-ma3nii barbaad karnaa ke ham aawaaz kar dete haiN._
_waa’o liin ko waa’o majhuul banaa denaa masal_an sau (ba-ma3nii Sad) ko fatHah-e-awwal kii bajaa’e pesh se "so" bolte haiN. Harf-e-3atf aur ko pesh ke saath ‘or’ bolte haiN jis se yih hindii lafz bama3nii "taraf" kaa ham aawaaz ho jaataa hae._
___*naHwii* *_(grammatical)_*:*
__*yahaaN ta3ziimii zamiir-e-Haazir* *_(3rd person honorific personal pronoun)_* “aap” ke saath fi3l* *_(verb)_* ke wuh SiiGhe* *_(endings)_* isti3maal karte haiN jo “tum” ke saath bole jaate haiN. masal_an:
*_​_*
aap aisaa karo     bajaa’e  aap aisaa kiijiye.
*_*aap to khaanaa khaa’o      bajaa’e           aap to khaanaa khaa’iye.
**
(Dr. Gyan Chand Jain)*​


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> I will add a third hypothesis to what you've mentioned: *3) influence from regional dialects*
> 
> I think the *correct* answer is a combination of all three hypotheses.
> 
> Khari Boli and a few other dialects have the _aap + haiN/kareN_ type of construction, but others only have the _tum + ho/karo_ construction.  So when speakers of these dialects and Punjabi spoke Khari Boli, they also used _aap_, but kept the_ ho/karo_ form that they were familiar with. This has led to the widespread use of the_ aap + ho/karo_ form instead of _aap + haiN/kareN_.  The process may have been facilitated in Delhi because it has always been an influential metropolitan city that attracted immigrants from various places.


Thank you for your contribution. I like your third hypothesis. I think it is a very good remark but I don't agree with you when you say that it is all three things mixed up. It's easily said but proven with difficulty. 

Delhi. The Delhi of Munshi Pahwa was different. I'm sure he was referring to the Urdu speech of the inhabitants around his lifetime, not to what happens nowadays, but your argument keeps stand as even then, there were many immigrants. Nowadays it is called Hindi speech and even those that speak Urdu (once being the holiest of the holy, that is the speech of Delhi) don't learn how to write or read it. Still, 90 years back, I think it was the Delhi Urdu that Pahwa spoke of. His remark is important for this thread because he, being himself from the Punjab and far away from Delhi, didn't associate this usage with Punjabi influence.


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## mundiya

Trying to reconcile the different pieces of information.  Since Pahwa singled out Delhi, I guess we can assume "aap karo" was most prevalent in Delhi in 1919.  But, as Quresh jii and I discussed, for it to be have spread so far and wide, it was probably already found in Punjab, Hyderabad, and other regions during Pahwa's time too. It's unlikely that Delhi was the only place it was found in 1919.  But a Delhi origin a century or two earlier would explain how it diffused in different directions.  Now it seems to be just as common in Punjab and Haryana as it is in Delhi. I think Punjabis get credit for originating things in both India and Pakistan.  In India because Punjabis are currently the largest community of Delhi, traditionally the cultural center of north India.  In Pakistan because Punjabis are the majority.


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> Trying to reconcile the different pieces of information. Since Pahwa singled out Delhi, I guess we can assume "aap karo" was most prevalent in Delhi in 1919.  But, as Quresh jii and I discussed, for it to be have spread so far and wide, it was probably already found in Punjab, Hyderabad, and other regions during Pahwa's time too. It's unlikely that Delhi was the only place it was found in 1919.  But a Delhi origin a century or two earlier would explain how it diffused in different directions.  Now it seems to be just as common in Punjab and Haryana as it is in Delhi. I think Punjabis get *credit *for originating things in both India and Pakistan.  In India because Punjabis are currently the largest community of Delhi, traditionally the cultural center of north India.  In Pakistan because Punjabis are the majority.


We will of course possibly never know but Munshi Pahwa's words ("Note- Occasionally in Delhi it is given the declension of the second person, plural, but this is not so elegant. For instance they say, "aap kahaaN jaa,oge" instead of "aap kahaaN jaa,eNge" for "Where will you go, Sir".) do not imply a preponderance of its occurrence in Delhi. If it was also in existence within the Punjab, he would have mentioned this and not singled out Delhi.

I am not sure if "credit" is the right word here. More like "blame", don't you think?


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> I am not sure if "credit" is the right word here. More like "blame", don't you think?



That depends on each person's perspective: I personally find the "aap karo" ways to be elegant solutions to the stifling hierarchy of Hindustani, particularly in Urdu language. I don't find them "ungrammatical": rather, grammar has evolved, as it should with time.


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## mundiya

Littlepond jii, in the "Hindustani" thread a while ago you mentioned you don't use the word Hindustani, especially for language.  So what changed?

Quresh jii, in India I don't think Punjabis are blamed for corrupting the language, but rather are thought to be much more influential than the numerical size due to the large presence of the community in Delhi, as well as in music and films.  This is why you have many people perceiving "aap karo" to be a Punjabi feature.  Do you feel Punjabis receive blame in Pakistan?


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## littlepond

^ mundiya jii, in my personal life, I don't use the term "Hindi-Urdu" either, which is what I would have had to write here if I hadn't used "Hindustani."


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## Dib

It just occurred to me that for many H-U speakers, there is probably a 4-tier respect system (in the non-standard speech pattern they are using)! In increasing levels of respect:
1. tuu jaataa hai
2. tum jaate ho
3. aap jaate ho
4. aap jaate haiN
Though, everybody who uses level-3 may not have an active 4-level system. In my experience, people in my age group (say, 25-35 now), who grew up in Delhi, use level-3 and level-1 a lot, but rarely level-2. In any case, the fact that aap +two different conjugations represent two different levels of respect or formality for its users is, I believe, pretty obvious.

I found out that an interesting parallel example comes from Maithili, where the pronoun toN takes two different conjugations in the sense of MSH tuu and tum, e.g. (if I am interpreting my sources correctly
tuu hai = toN chhe
tum ho = toN chhah


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## littlepond

^ Indeed. And even a 5th one for some speakers:

1. tuu jaa rahaa hai?
2. tum jaa rahe ho?
3. aap jaa rahe ho?
4. aap jaa rahe hain?
5. aap jaaiyegaa?


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## aevynn

Thanks, @Qureshpor, for linking me to this discussion. I can't really add anything substantial about the history or distribution of this grammatical feature. It's certainly very ubiquitous in my family, and most of my family is originally from Delhi and Punjab. I consistently refer to my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc, with _aap_ + _ho_ verb forms. I distinctly remember that, once, when I was fairly young, I overheard a friend of mine (whose family comes from Allahabad) talking to his mom on the phone. He used _aap_ + _haiN_ verb forms, and it caught me by surprise: when he got off the phone, I remember asking him, "Do you really need to be _that_ polite with your own mom?!"


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## Qureshpor

Thank you@aevynn.

If you type "Sairbeen 3rd March 2016 Part 2 .BBC Urdu" on youtube, at 1:49 you will hear an elderly lady from Rajastan saying, "aap maas-machchhlii khaa rahe ho....". 

Today, on youtube I was listening to Gaurav Vallabh who apparently is also from Rajastan. The video title is "Clash With China in Ladakh Came After Official Assurances of Calm, What Options for India Now?" Towards the end of the video (say last 4 minutes or so), he is regularly using this construction.

I have already mentioned this usage in Hyderabad, India. So, its usage is widespread and I would still insist it was born in Delhi from where it has travelled far afield.


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## marrish

محمدشاہ کے حضور میں امیر‌خاں اور برہان‌الملک حاضر تھے بادشاہ نے پوچھا کہ پوت سپون کون ہے اور کپوت کون امیر خان نے کہا کہ پوت تو *حضرت ہیں جو آپ کے باپ بھی بادشاہ تھے اور آپ بھی بادشاہ ہو* اور سپوت برہان‌الملک ہے کہ اس کے باپ کو کوئی جانتا بھی نہیں اور یہ مشہور آدمی ہے اور کپوت میں ہوں جو میرے باپ دادے کی دولت تھی وہ میرے موافق نہیں۔ 


 ایک بادشاہ کے تین عقلمند بیٹے تھے بادشاہ نے تینون سے فرمایا کہ میں تو بوڑھا ہوا اب بادشاہی تم کرو انہوں نے عرض کی کہ *ابھی آپ سلامت ہو* ہم بادشاہی کس وجہ سے کریں ہم‌ سے کبھی ایسی بےادبی نہ ہو گی بادشاہ نے… 

--transcription:
*"*मुह़म्मद शाह के हुज़ूर में अमीर ख़ाँ और बुर्हान-उल-मुल्क हाज़िर थे बादशाह ने पूछा कि सपून सपूत कौन है और कुपूत कौन अमीर ख़ाँ ने कहा किः पूत तो ह़ज़्‌रत हैं जो आप के बाप भी बादशाह थे और आप भी बादशाह हो और सपूत बुर्हानुऽल्-मुल्क है किः इस के बाप को कोई जानता भी नहीं और यिह मश्‌हूर आदमी है और कुपूत मैं हूँ जो मेरे बाप दादे की दौलत थी वुह मेरे मुवाफ़िक़ नहीं.*"

"*एक बादशाह के तीन अ़्क़्ल्मन्द ‌‌ बेटे थे बादशाह ने तीनों से फ़र्माया किः मैं तो बूढ़ा हुआ अब बाद्शाही तुम करो उन्हों ने अ़र्ज़ की किः अभी आप सलामत हो हम बादशाही किस वज्ह् से करें हमसे कभी ऐसी बे-अदबी न-होगी बादशाह ने…*"*


*= lataa'if-e-hindii, Lala Debi Parshaad, publ. Munshi Newalkishore, Lucknow, 1873





*


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## Dib

Excellent. I have a feeling that this "aap V-o" usage may be a case of "recency illusion". After all "aap" originally simply meant "self", and different languages have later grammaticalised it (or a closely related form) as personal pronouns of 1st, 2nd and 3rd persons. So, I'd very much expect it to have also been used with 2nd person plural verbs in the past in the sense of "yourselves" or "yourself (honorific)", that could easily give rise to the current interpretation of "aap V-o". Let's keep digging to see how far back we can actually go back!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> محمدشاہ کے حضور میں امیر‌خاں اور برہان‌الملک حاضر تھے بادشاہ نے پوچھا کہ پوت سپون کون ہے اور کپوت کون امیر خان نے کہا کہ پوت تو *حضرت ہیں جو آپ کے باپ بھی بادشاہ تھے اور آپ بھی بادشاہ ہو* اور سپوت برہان‌الملک ہے کہ اس کے باپ کو کوئی جانتا بھی نہیں اور یہ مشہور آدمی ہے اور کپوت میں ہوں جو میرے باپ دادے کی دولت تھی وہ میرے موافق نہیں۔
> 
> 
> ایک بادشاہ کے تین عقلمند بیٹے تھے بادشاہ نے تینون سے فرمایا کہ میں تو بوڑھا ہوا اب بادشاہی تم کرو انہوں نے عرض کی کہ *ابھی آپ سلامت ہو* ہم بادشاہی کس وجہ سے کریں ہم‌ سے کبھی ایسی بےادبی نہ ہو گی بادشاہ نے…
> 
> --transcription:
> *"*मुह़म्मद शाह के हुज़ूर में अमीर ख़ाँ और बुर्हान-उल-मुल्क हाज़िर थे बादशाह ने पूछा कि सपून सपूत कौन है और कुपूत कौन अमीर ख़ाँ ने कहा किः पूत तो ह़ज़्‌रत हैं जो आप के बाप भी बादशाह थे और आप भी बादशाह हो और सपूत बुर्हानुऽल्-मुल्क है किः इस के बाप को कोई जानता भी नहीं और यिह मश्‌हूर आदमी है और कुपूत मैं हूँ जो मेरे बाप दादे की दौलत थी वुह मेरे मुवाफ़िक़ नहीं.*"
> 
> "*एक बादशाह के तीन अ़्क़्ल्मन्द ‌‌ बेटे थे बादशाह ने तीनों से फ़र्माया किः मैं तो बूढ़ा हुआ अब बाद्शाही तुम करो उन्हों ने अ़र्ज़ की किः अभी आप सलामत हो हम बादशाही किस वज्ह् से करें हमसे कभी ऐसी बे-अदबी न-होगी बादशाह ने…*"*
> 
> 
> *= lataa'if-e-hindii, Lala Debi Parshaad, publ. Munshi Newalkishore, Lucknow, 1873
> View attachment 43746View attachment 43747*


janaab-i-marrish SaaHib, I was going to take my pagRii off to you for these finds but on further "research", I shall just just move my pagRii a little and then put it back in its former position! I have two reasons for this.

1. The first example is actually...."aur aap bhii baadshaah hu'e"

محمدشاہ کے حضور میں امیر‌خاں اور برہان‌الملک حاضر تھے بادشاہ نے پوچھا کہ پوت سپون *کیون* ہے اور کپوت کون امیر خان نے کہا کہ پوت تو حضرت ہیں جو آپ کے باپ بھی بادشاہ تھے اور آپ بھی بادشاہ* ہوئے۔۔*

2. The author who has translated these into Urdu, happens to be a native of Bhopal and I remember you presented here a scholarly piece (post 17) from Dr Gyan Chand Jain on Bhopali Urdu.

Edit: It seems marrish SaaHib has used the 1873 print while I have been looking at the 1925 re-print.  So, marrish SaaHib, hats off to you!


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Sorry to intrude in this scholarly discussion.
I was just wondering if imperatives like "rahiyo" (as in, say, "Thade Rahiyo O Baanke Yaar") also represent a similar "mix of persons" phenomenon.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> I was just wondering if imperatives like "rahiyo" (as in, say, "Thade Rahiyo O Baanke Yaar") also represent a similar "mix of persons" phenomenon.



Not here at least, if you mean the song from Pakeezah. The girl is addressing her "yaar" (thus is in intimacy), and "rahiyo" is also the tuu (intimate) form.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> Not here at least, if you mean the song from Pakeezah. The girl is addressing her "yaar" (thus is in intimacy), and "rahiyo" is also the tuu (intimate) form.


On further research (I found this in very old grammars only, such as The Student's Grammar of the Hindi Language,), it turns out that the _-iyo _forms belong to something called the "mild imperative".
All of them take care to clarify that it is not grammatically plural.

Platts differs and calls these things "Precatives" rather than imperatives, and insists that they are grammatically plural.

In any case, I don't know if this ended up being relevant to the original discussion. I apologize.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> On further research (I found this in very old grammars only, such as The Student's Grammar of the Hindi Language,), it turns out that the _-iyo _forms belong to something called the "mild imperative".
> All of them take care to clarify that it is not grammatically plural.



They are of course not grammatically plural! The "-iyo" form of imperative is very commonly used and indeed is "milder" - in English, one would use "do" (e.g., "vahiiN baiThi(i)yo, kahiiN na jai(i)yo" - "do stay there, don't go anywhere", as opposed to "stay there".) It can only be used when one can say "tuu" to the addressee. (For "tum", it would've been "vahiiN baiThnaa", and for "aap", "vahiiN baiThiyegaa".)


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## Qureshpor

littlepond said:


> They are of course not grammatically plural! The "-iyo" form of imperative is very commonly used and indeed is "milder" - in English, one would use "do" (e.g., "vahiiN baiThi(i)yo, kahiiN na jai(i)yo" - "do stay there, don't go anywhere", as opposed to "stay there".) It can only be used when one can say "tuu" to the addressee. (For "tum", it would've been "vahiiN baiThnaa", and for "aap", "vahiiN baiThiyegaa".)


Please see the below thread for -iyo form in Urdu with both "tuu" and "tum" in posts 7 and 10.

Urdu: kiijiyo


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## littlepond

Thanks, @Qureshpor jii, for the examples. I think I overreached in my statement: "tum" with "-iyo" construction can indeed exist, as you correctly point out with some literature. However, I hear it rarely (or maybe it's old-fashioned?). The "tuu" with "-iyo" construction is very commonly heard in Hindi.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

I recently stumbled upon Hadiqa Kiani's song "Mohabat Na Kariyo" (which is been used as the theme song of a Pakistani soap opera as well). But I don't know if the song is older, or what predates what.
The "beloved" in this song is, as far as I can understand, addressed singularly (intimate _tu_).


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## littlepond

Meanwhile, on thinking more of it, even "aap" + "-iyo" form exists in usage: in fact, I've heard it more often in speech than "tum" + "-iyo".

For example, a tailor's customer telling her: "aap is meN popliin lagaa di(i)yo".


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## Pvitr

(I've have just skimmed the thread so apologies if someone else has mentioned this but...) 

'aap'in Panjabi is reflexive and is used for second person singular and plural/formal (so not confined to formal speech). 
Also 2nd person pl. verb endings for many verbs is '-o'.

Are the examples above covered by these points?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Also from the slightly-Punjabized song "nainaa Thag leNge"

_nainoN kii mat maaNR*iyo* re / nainoN kii mat suNR*iyo*
nainoN kii mat suNR*iyo* re / nainaa Thag leNge_

there seems to be a Punjabi background in all these cases ...


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## marrish

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Also from the slightly-Punjabized song "nainaa Thag leNge"
> 
> _nainoN kii mat maaNR*iyo* re / nainoN kii mat suNR*iyo*
> nainoN kii mat suNR*iyo* re / nainaa Thag leNge_
> 
> there seems to be a Punjabi background in all these cases ...


How come Punjabi, and what is precisely the connection of this quote to the topic?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

marrish said:


> How come Punjabi, and what is precisely the connection of this quote to the topic?


The connection is the* -iyo* ending for imperatives for an apparent "tu" person as discussed in post #31, #32, #33, #35, #37, #38 and #39

My assumption of there being a Punjabi background comes from several other isolated, seemingly Punjabi terms present in that particular song (_satrangii _for  "rainbow", _bijnaa _for "to sow", _svargaa _for "heaven", etc.). 
It is a beautiful song. (Sample video ID=qG7Kms_YA5Q, in case you are interested).


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## marrish

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> The connection is the* -iyo* ending for imperatives for an apparent "tu" person as discussed in post #31, #32, #33, #35, #37, #38 and #39


I thought you took it for a case of "aap V-o" .


MonsieurGonzalito said:


> My assumption of there being a Punjabi background comes from several other isolated, seemingly Punjabi terms present in that particular song (_satrangii _for "rainbow", _bijnaa _for "to sow", _svargaa _for "heaven", etc.).
> It is a beautiful song. (Sample video ID=qG7Kms_YA5Q, in case you are interested).


Thanks, I'm familiar with the song and I'll take a listen later again to catch up on the language of the lyrics, all I can say right now is such an alleged Punjabi connection is hardly more than a conjecture.


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> My assumption of there being a Punjabi background comes from several other isolated, seemingly Punjabi terms present in that particular song (_satrangii _for  "rainbow", _bijnaa _for "to sow", _svargaa _for "heaven", etc.).



What is specifically Punjabi about these terms?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> What is specifically Punjabi about these terms?


I can't say for sure. But on one hand, I can't find these words in the Hindi and Urdu dictionaries I normally use, and on the other, they do come readily as Punjabi. For example in Wikipedia

'Heaven":

Punjabi: ਸਵਰਗ - ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ, ਇਕ ਅਜ਼ਾਦ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਗਿਆਨਕੋਸ਼
Urdu: بہشت - آزاد دائرۃ المعارف، ویکیپیڈیا

"Rainbow":

Punjabi: ਸਤਰੰਗੀ ਪੀਂਘ - ਵਿਕੀਪੀਡੀਆ, ਇਕ ਅਜ਼ਾਦ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਗਿਆਨਕੋਸ਼
Hindi: इन्द्रधनुष - विकिपीडिया
Urdu: دھنک - آزاد دائرۃ المعارف، ویکیپیڈیا

For "bijnaa" in Hindi I only found this (in Platts)
بيجنا बीजना bījnā [S. व्यजनं], s.m. Fan (=bijnā):—bījnā ḍulānā, bījnā ḍolnā, v.t. To fan.
Whereas in Punjabi:




(EDIT: those NRs in my previous post are wrong, though)


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Revisiting "Rang", and with the awareness that this is Braj and higly poetic:

_maaTii ke tum diivare(N)
jo sun*iyo* hamaarii baat
aaj milaavaaraa mohe piyaa kaa
jo jag*iyo* saarii raat!_

Those two, I can't say for sure if they are imperatives (at least not _suniyo_), but they are obviously "gramatically plural" (tum).
And this song is innocent of any modern "Punjabi-lacing".


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> I can't say for sure. But on one hand, I can't find these words in the Hindi and Urdu dictionaries I normally use, and on the other, they do come readily as Punjabi.



स्वर्ग :  हिंदुओं के सात लोकों में से तीसरा लोक जो ऊपर आकाश में सूर्य लोक से लेकर ध्रुव लोक तक माना जाता है ।  ( Hindi sabdasagara. ) (and it is not "heaven" - no such concept exists for Hindus)

सतरंगा : जिसमें सात रंग हो । सात रंगों वाला । जैसे—सतरंगा साफा; सतरंगी साड़ी ।
संतरंगा : इंद्रधनुष जिसमें सात रंग होते हैं । ( Hindi sabdasagara. )

The only one remaining is बिजना or बीजना : I have not heard it in standard Hindi for sowing seeds, but given that बीज is the word for a seed, it wouldn't surprise me if some Hindi speakers do use a word like बीजना.


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## Qureshpor

In Abhisar Sharma's programme bearing the title पहले और दूसरे चरण के मतदान के बाद कौन आगे ?, just heard PM Modi say, "aap kis ke vote ikhaTTaa karnaa chaahte ho". I believe he hails from Gujarat.


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> just heard PM Modi say, "aap kis ke vote ikhaTTaa karnaa chaahte ho". I believe he hails from Gujarat.


Well, Modi is not a native Hindi speaker, and his Hindi is quite bad anyway.


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## marrish

An 1882 grammar, of Hindi, informs,


> The _Honorific Pronoun _requires a verb in the 3rd person.  (It is occasionally treated as the eqivalent of _tum_, and then is followed by the 2nd person plural.)


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