# Pracht



## margiej

I am translating a line of poetry (the poet is addressing God):

 ....und schenk durch meinen armen Mund
     Gesang den Armen - Deiner Pracht

I feel that the word 'splendor' for Pracht is rather old-fashioned. I would prefer 'magnificence'. What do people think?


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## perpend

Welcome, margiej!  I would prefer "glory", for what it's worth.


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## Schlabberlatz

"Glory" I think would be "Ruhm" or "Ehre" in German. Why not use "splendor"? The German text sounds old-fashioned, so it is not so bad if the translation sounds slightly old-fashioned, too.


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## Hutschi

Glory
http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/glory.html

I think, it is all of these, it also contains "Pracht".

I would consider the whole poem.
Does it rhyme?
Does it have a special form?
This may have influence, too.


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## bearded

Schlabberlatz said:


> "Glory" I think would be "Ruhm" or "Ehre" in German. Why not use "splendor"? The German text sounds old-fashioned, so it is not so bad if the translation sounds slightly old-fashioned, too.


Actually, there are ecclesiastic expressions and prayers saying things like ''the Lord will descend on earth in all His glory'', or ''He is dominating in Heaven in all His glory...'', and I feel that _Ruhm/Ehre_ would not fit here, therefore I find perpend's suggestion (Pracht>glory) correct, since 'glory' is a traditional way to say 'splendor' after all.


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## Schlabberlatz

I should have looked it up before posting. But I still think that splendor may be preferable since it’s a more specific term.


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## Gernot Back

margiej said:


> ....und schenk durch meinen armen Mund
> Gesang den Armen - Deiner Pracht


Apart from not knowing which English word to pick here for German _Pracht_, I don't understand the rest of these lines either, not even as a native speaker!

_And bestow singing/chant through my poor mouth upon _whom or what? ​


_Upon the poor_ 
or
_upon your splendor_ 
or
_upon both_
or
_upon the poor being nothing but a variation of your splendor_ 
or
_upon the poor/the arms of your splendor_ 
(_Deiner Pracht_ as a genitive attribute of the dative plural _den Armen_)


Not one single interpretation that comes to my mind really makes sense to me.


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## Schimmelreiter

Gernot Back said:


> Apart from not knowing which English word to pick here for German _Pracht_, I don't understand the rest of these lines either, not even as a native speaker!_And bestow singing/chant through my poor mouth upon _whom or what? ​
> 
> 
> _Upon the poor_
> or
> _upon your splendor_
> or
> _upon both_
> or
> _upon the poor being nothing but a variation of your splendor_
> or
> _upon the poor/the arms of your splendor_
> (_Deiner Pracht_ as a genitive attribute of the dative plural _den Armen_)
> 
> 
> Not one single interpretation that comes to my mind really makes sense to me.


Might we assume that the copy is flawed?

_... und schenk durch meine*s* armen Mund*s*
Gesang den Armen - *Deine* Pracht_


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## Schlabberlatz

I think it means "I sing of your splendor to the poor". "Gesang (von) Deiner Pracht." Or "über Deine Pracht".

Edit: crossed with Schimmelreiter. His interpretation also makes sense.


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## bearded

I have thought of another, maybe less plausible, possibility:
_Und durch meinen armen Mund schenk einen Gesang den Armen, die Deine Pracht sind
(Deiner Pracht  is dative, as apposition to 'den Armen')
_Die Armen sind des Herrn Pracht.
'..and through my poor mouth give a chant to the poor, (who are) your glory/splendour'.


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## cuore romano

I read _Deiner Pracht_ as the beginning of the next sentence. 
< ... >


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## margiej

I do apologise for delay in checking thread - I am new to the forum and there is a time difference which means one has to remember to check! I AM interested in the replies and thank you all very much.

Here are the lines in context. I hope that including the whole poem makes it clearer. I take the point that the language is somewhat old-fashioned, the poem was written in the 1930s I think.

<...>

Mein Gott, tu mir das Wunder kund,
das Erdenleid zur Freude macht
und schenk durch meinen armen Mund 
Gesang den Armen - Deiner Pracht.


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## Hutschi

This way it depends also on the purpose of your translation.
Is it a more literal one or should rhyme and rhythm fit, too?


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## bearded

After I read the whole poem, it seems to me that my 'improbable' interpretation as per #10 might be correct...


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## margiej

Hutschi said:


> This way it depends also on the purpose of your translation.
> Is it a more literal one or should rhyme and rhythm fit, too?



Before I can work on the rhyme and rhythm I want to make sure I am as close to the meaning, in the context of the poem, as possible.


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## margiej

Maybe, however I think that the poet wants to present his song to the poor. From what I know of the poet he would not have meant to describe the poor themselves as God's glory.


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## Gernot Back

bearded man said:


> _Und durch meinen armen Mund schenk einen Gesang den Armen, die Deine Pracht sind
> (Deiner Pracht  is dative, as apposition to 'den Armen')._


I don't think so, even if some high-ranking representatives of Christianity like Mother Teresa thought that suffering (and poverty) is a way of being very close to the sufferings of Christ, refusing to give their patients palliative sedation in their last days. But poverty can never be splendor; it's quite the opposite!

Thinking about it again, I would interprete "Deiner Pracht" as a genitive attribute in the function of a prepositional attribute:



> Schenk durch meinen armen Mund Gesang den Armen - Deiner Pracht (-> von Deiner Pracht, über Deine Pracht)



_Schenk den Armen durch meinen Mund (einen) Gesang, der von Deiner Pracht kündet._​


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## Hutschi

When I read it, I read it like bearded man, in mother Theresa sense.
But this is because of grammar. Maybe I use restrictions too hard here.

I read it as genitive too: "Wessen Pracht?"

The situation of the lyrical "I" is bad. Why shood not the poor people are part of "Pracht"?

PS:
Gernot's


> _Schenk den Armen durch meinen Mund (einen) Gesang, der von Deiner Pracht kündet._


 sounds more logically overall ... I just do not understand the grammar this way in the original sentence. 

It is:
und schenk durch meinen armen Mund 
Gesang Deiner Pracht den Armen. 

or
und schenk durch meinen armen Mund 
Gesang - den Armen - Deiner Pracht.


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## bearded

> Hutschi:
> Why should the poor people not be part of 'Pracht'?


Ich dachte immerhin an die ,Seligpreisungen': _Selig, die arm sind vor Gott, denn ihnen gehört das Himmelreich.
_(sorry, I turned to German, but I think we all understand it, including the OP.  Unfortunately I do not have a Gospel in English available at the moment).
As an atheist, I feel it sort of strange that I am commenting on a religious text..


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## berndf

margiej said:


> Mein Gott, tu mir das Wunder kund,
> das Erdenleid zur Freude macht
> und schenk durch meinen armen Mund
> Gesang den Armen - Deiner Pracht.


This is how I understand the stanza:_
My God, reveal the miracle to me
Which turns earthly sorrow into joy;
And give through my mouth
Song to the poor [and] for [=to praise] thy glory.

_ I.e. I understand _Deiner Pracht _as a _dativus commodi_.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> I understand _Deiner Pracht _as a _dativus commodi_.


which is in contravention of the eleventh commandment: There shall not be two dative objects in a German sentence (unless one be apposed unto the other).


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> which is in contravention of the eleventh commandment: There shall not be two dative objects in a German sentence (unless one be apposed unto the other).


Do you think a dativus commodi is necessarily and object? This idea would be new to me but I am always glad to learn new things; so convince me.


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## Schimmelreiter

canoo lists the _dativus commodi _as one of the dative objects.


PS_
Ich wasche dir das Auto.

_Please replace _wasche ... das Auto_ with a verb and its dative object. Any verb/any dative object.


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## Hutschi

I have a question concerning verse 3. What about _And give through my *poor* mouth ?
__
In the end translation, you could omit it, if rhythm and rhyme requires, but you want at first a very near translation.
Does "poor" fit here?_


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> canoo lists the _dativus commodi _as one of the dative objects.
> 
> 
> PS_
> Ich wasche dir das Auto.
> 
> _Please replace _wasche ... das Auto_ with a verb and its dative object. Any verb/any dative object.


I didn't doubt a dativus commodi *could *be be an object. I doubted it *had* to be an object.


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## margiej

Thank you! this is so helpful....


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## margiej

Yes, I do....


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> I didn't doubt a dativus commodi could be be an object. I doubted it had to be an object.


Your analysis is rather indicative of the dativus finalis, which I believe is alien to German, however:





berndf said:


> _for [=to praise] thy glory_


One cannot, for instance, render _Non scholae sed vitae discimus_ using datives. 

This is not to be confounded with a case like _Ich lebe der Kunst_, where taking a dative object is inherent to the verb rather than indicative of a genuine dativus finalis _(*Ich arbeite der Kunst)._


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## berndf

Whatever you call it, it is this dative.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> Whatever you call it, it is this dative.


Ist es das Gleiche wie das bekannte 'dem deutschen Volke'?


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> Ist es das Gleiche wie das bekannte 'dem deutschen Volke'?


Yes.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> ...which I believe is alien to German...


If the whole thing were idiomatic German we wouldn't have this discussion, would we?


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> If the whole thing were idiomatic German we wouldn't have this discussion, would we?


Well, the idiomatic alternative is that the poor are the flower of creation _(den Armen_, i.e. _​Deiner Pracht)_. This is not to be ruled out given how clearly Jesus speaks out against the rich:
_It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
_Mark 10:25


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Well, the idiomatic alternative is that the poor are the flower of creation _(den Armen_, i.e. _​Deiner Pracht)_. This is not to be ruled out given how clearly Jesus speaks out against the rich:
> _It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
> _Mark 10:25


Yes, I understand this. This understanding has already been made explicit by bearded man in #10. I just wanted to note that my intuitive understanding is different. My intuition may well be wrong.


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## margiej

Thank you to everybody who has given their opinion. As a newcomer to the WordReference Forum, I think it's wonderful that people put so much thought into their comments.
 So many people and institutions in my country (Australia) ignore, underestimate, take for granted or abuse the value of words......


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