# la Gueuse



## maraki35605

Salut à tous! Je vous cite la phrase suivante: _Nombre d'oficiers supérieurs (de l'extrême droite) qui souvent acceptaient mal la République, ''la Gueuse" comme ils disaient, tournaient volontiers leurs regards vers Franco et Moussolini._
Comment vous direz le mot _Gueuse _en anglais?
Merci pour votre aide!


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## myrrh

maraki35605 said:


> Salut à tous! Je vous cite la phrase suivante: _Nombre d'oficiers supérieurs (de l'extrême droite) qui souvent acceptaient mal la République, ''la Gueuse" comme ils disaient, tournaient volontiers leurs regards vers Franco et Moussolini._
> Comment vous direz le mot _Gueuse _en anglais?
> Merci pour votre aide!


 
You keep it in French because it's a denomination..


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## Staarkali

indeed it's the name of something, I think Myrrh is right and you don't need to translate.

However, Im fancy finding a translation for gueux/gueuse.


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## myrrh

Yes, it's how the officers named the Republic and it actually means, like melu said, the Villain.. 
So here's what you could do, keep it as it is and write its meaning in english between parentheses 

--> "La Gueuse" (the villain) 

Take a look at this link, it should help  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_February_1934_crisis


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## Grop

Bonjour, gueuse est le féminin de gueux. Il peut avoir plusieurs sens, en particulier:
 - mendiant (a priori c'est le sens le plus courant)
 - pauvre
 - roturier (par opposition à noble)
 - prostituée

Je ne sais pas quel est le sens voulu ici.

(Villain est pas mal en fait).


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## maraki35605

Thanks to all of you!


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## JeanDeSponde

_Gueux / Gueuse_ is originally someone reduced to beg for a living - _beggar_._
Une gueuse_ is also a prostitute, a whore (another way to survive).
The nickname _la Gueuse_, given by opponents of Republic, carried both meanings.
[I don't really agree with _villain - _neither with _villein_]


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## Shang Qin Li

Don't use "villain" here, as JeanDeSponde said. Simply keep the french term as it is and write (the Whore) next to it (in brackets and W in upper case). That's what la Gueuse means here.


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## Moon Palace

Shang Qin Li said:


> Don't use "villain" here, as JeanDeSponde said. Simply keep the french term as it is and write (the Whore) next to it (in brackets and W in upper case). That's what la Gueuse means here.



Although I agree with JDS  overall, I wouldn't advise to say 'the whore' in brackets as I believe 'La Gueuse' has a wider scope, and ought not to be reduced to that of a whore. I would say 'a woman of loose morals', since those women were mainly reproached with not abiding by the code of morals, but some didn't have to be whores to be called 'Gueuse'.


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## Shang Qin Li

Moon Palace said:


> Although I agree with JDS  overall, I wouldn't advise to say 'the whore' in brackets as I believe 'La Gueuse' has a wider scope, and ought not to be reduced to that of a whore. I would say "a woman of loose morals", since those women were mainly reproached with not abiding by the code of morals, but some didn't have to be whores to be called 'Gueuse'.


 
"La Gueuse" is a brutal way of putting it, and that is precisely why they used that word: to express brutality, in the most deragotory way they could think of. "a woman of loose morals" is quite correct, but much too nice for what they meant. Besides it refers to the Republic. I remember reading a book where someone said: "La Gueuse" ? Tu veux dire la pute !"
That's even worse !


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## Grop

Shang Qin Li said:


> "La Gueuse" ? Tu veux dire la pute !"
> That's even worse !



Exactly: gueuse is a sort of understatement when compared to pute (or at least it is less direct), and I think you lose this understatement value if you explicitly translate it as whore.


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## Moon Palace

Grop said:


> Exactly: gueuse is a sort of understatement when compared to pute (or at least it is less direct), and I think you lose this understatement value if you explicitly translate it as whore.



Thanks for confirming my impression, I do believe it is too specific to translate it with 'a whore', and I think we lose the irony. 
'gueuse', 'traînée' were as many words to depict such women that had loose morals, the point was not to say precisely why they were seen this way, it was only hinted at. And it comprised whores, but not only.

And there is absolutely no comparison possible between 'gueuse' and 'pute', the latter being extremely vulgar whereas 'gueuse' is archaic and has lost its vulgar aspect.


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## Shang Qin Li

Dear Grop,
Your remark tends to corroborate mine. I have the impression they really wanted to say "Pute" but didn't dare to. So they used "Gueuse" instead. Would you agree ?


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## Grop

I agree it is possible .


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## maraki35605

Actually, there is also a footnote in my book about this word, which I didn't notice from the beginning. The footnote says: _"La Gueuse" pour la République, termes de mépris qui évoque la "chose de bas pris", sans valeur._
So, taking also into consideration this footnote, I don't think that the meaning _Whore _is the appropriate one. I would better agree with the meaning of_ villain _or _the Republic, which has no moral._


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## Moon Palace

I have been thinking about it, and here is the definition of the TLF concerning 'gueuse' when it refers to La République:
_La Gueuse _ou _la gueuse _(vieilli). La République française *pour ses adversaires royalistes*. _Je ne suis pas tendre pour la gueuse. Mais il faut reconnaître que la République est quelque fois bonne fille _(A. France, _M. Bergeret,_ 1901, p. 150). _Si elle _[_la République_] _n'est pas renversée, dans un mouvement de mépris et d'horreur, cette Gueuse, elle fera sans doute mieux une autre fois. _(L. Daudet, _Police pol.,_ 1934, p. 168).

Would 'a slut' be really too harsh? Because this is the idea, that of a woman of loose morals who was a traitor and accepted to go with whoever seduced her?


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## Jeanbar

What about *harlot* ? It seems to be old-fashioned to me (but I am not a native) and to fit in the picture of straight-laced Royalists despising the Republic.


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## Shang Qin Li

Moon Palace said:


> I have been thinking about it, and here is the definition of the TLF concerning 'gueuse' when it refers to La République:
> _La Gueuse _ou _la gueuse _(vieilli). La République française *pour ses adversaires royalistes*. _Je ne suis pas tendre pour la gueuse. Mais il faut reconnaître que la République est quelque fois bonne fille _(A. France, _M. Bergeret,_ 1901, p. 150). _Si elle _[_la République_] _n'est pas renversée, dans un mouvement de mépris et d'horreur, cette Gueuse, elle fera sans doute mieux une autre fois. _(L. Daudet, _Police pol.,_ 1934, p. 168).
> 
> Would 'a slut' be really too harsh? Because this is the idea, that of a woman of loose morals who was a traitor and accepted to go with whoever seduced her?


 
As per the OD, a slut is defined simply as a slovenly woman (ie: untidy, lazy etc...). Can a slut be a traitor and/or be of loose morals ? Maybe. Here is another idea: "the Bitch" (= la Garce). What do you think ?


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## Moon Palace

Shang Qin Li said:


> Here is another idea: "the Bitch" (= la Garce). What do you think ?



I like 'the bitch' . But according to the CED and to the Merriam-Webster, 'a slut' has two meanings: a slovenly woman, but also a promiscuous woman, which is why I suggested this.


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## maraki35605

TLF: is it a dictionary? What do the principles mean?
Thank you for your replies. It is really usefull, when we discuss all together about such themes.


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## Moon Palace

TLF is an excellent French dictionary online. 
What 'principles' are you talking about?


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## maraki35605

maraki35605 said:


> Actually, there is also a footnote in my book about this word, which I didn't notice from the beginning. The footnote says: _"La Gueuse" pour la République, termes de mépris qui évoque la "chose de bas pris", sans valeur._
> So, taking also into consideration this footnote, I don't think that the meaning _Whore _is the appropriate one. I would better agree with the meaning of_ villain _or _the Republic, which has no moral._


 
Despite of the meaning of the word, as it is defined by dictionaries, I insist that, regarding the footnote, terms like the Bitch, the Harlot, the slut etc are not in accordance with the meaning, that the writer gives to the term.
La Gueuse, as it is described by the writer's footnote, is something really bad and worthless. The writer does not refer to the Republic's morality, but to its value.


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## maraki35605

Sorry I meant the initials. L I suppose stands for Langue and F for Francaise. right?
Where could I find this online dictionary? Could you give me the link, please?


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## Moon Palace

maraki35605 said:


> Sorry I meant the initials. L I suppose stands for Langue and F for Francaise. right?
> Where could I find this online dictionary? Could you give me the link, please?



TLF = Trésor de La Langue Française (the link is in my previous post). Also called 'Centre National des Ressources Textuelles, which is the name of the website including the TLF. 
About the meaning of 'La Gueuse', I'd like to know who the author is, and if he is French. Because the footnote seems not to be quite in accordance with the real meaning of 'La Gueuse'. I agree it is some kind of 'worthless woman', either a bitch or a slut; but it cannot be considered as 'something'. I wonder what made the author add this kind of footnote that is not explanatory of what the French mean when saying this about the French Republic. 
What I don't get is that normally a footnote explains what the word means in the cultural background of the language to which it belongs.


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## maraki35605

Yes thank you, it is really excellent this dictionary.
The author is Denise Guillaume. A footnote may also explain what a word means in its context, which may sometimes differ from its meaning at a dictionary or at the cultural background, to which it belongs. The words must be always seen as a part of the text, not alone. And when somebody writes a text, he/she may use a word in a different meaning, other than it is commonly known.
Anyway, I found also this definition at TLF and I think, it matches better to our case.
_P. ext._ Personne de mauvaise apparence, à la conduite vile, méprisable. Synon. _coquin, filou, fripon, misérable._ _Traiter (qqn) de gueux, de vieille gueuse._ _Chez les nécessiteux, un garçon qui force les parents à écorner le capital devient un mauvais sujet, un gueux, un drôle! _(Maupass., _Contes et nouv., _t. 1, Oncle Jules, 1883, p. 414) :


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## Moon Palace

You're welcome, maraki.  I know a footnote may explain a word according to a particular meaning the author wants to give it. But here, it sounded as if the author wanted to explain what 'La Gueuse' meant in the context of the French Republic, a kind of historical meaning that would have been genuine. 

THis is why I was puzzled. Now, my suggestion of 'a woman of loose morals' as opposed to a whore stemmed from the idea of somebody whose lifestyle was not worthy and who was not loyal in the least. 
But in view of your footnote and its aim, your choice is indeed better. 

Would 'the rascal' then suit you?


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## maraki35605

exactly! That is perfect, I think!
Thanks!


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## JeanDeSponde

maraki35605 said:


> TLF: is it a dictionary?


Yep : _Trésor de la Langue Française._ http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv4/showps.exe?p=combi.htm;java=no;
Beware: this is limited to old meanings (slang or formal). No modern stuff there - and many long forgotten expressions and senses...
Note that accents are necessary when searching a word in the TLF.


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## lamoufette

Let's go back to the word *beggar*: Did the Royalty percieve the Republicains as poor people looking for a handout from them?   A royalist thinks that the Republican is UNGRATEFUL, as in _ungrateful bitch_, leaving behind in English just the word bitch, which unfortunately has no connotation of ingratitude. What do poeple think of the translation *The Leech *(sangsue).


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## maraki35605

First of all, let's not confuse the Republic with the Republicans.  Regarding also the period, which we refer to (just before the beginning of the second World War), I think that the Royals or better the extreme right parties at our case disregard the Republic, because just a few years ago, in 1936, so many social benefits were given to people by the government. A "red" influence was observed at the society and that's what made the people of the right wing go mad and put the Republic into question. So, the Republic is not at all a beggar. The problem is rather the opposite, that it gives too many benefits to people.


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## lamoufette

ooooupsss. . . I was thinking of the 1800's. Your idea that the right wing saw the republic giving too many benefits to the people would seem to support  *leech* as a possible translation of la Guese, instead of whore which simply implies a moral weakness/filthyness, but doesn't get to the heart of the fact that the right weren't interested in 'sharing the wealth'.


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## maraki35605

Why leech for the Republic. If I am not mistaken, leech describes someone who lives ah the expense of others. At the expense of whom lives the Republic. Of the rich ones? Of the right ones? But I think, we miss the point in this way. On what the write focuses is not the share of the welth, but the socialist-communist or conservative tendencies of the society.


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## Shang Qin Li

Dear Maraki
So, -and to close the debate- what is *your fina*l choice going to be ? "Slut" "Rascal" or "Bitch" ? (I don't think "leech" fits in).


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## maraki35605

rather rascal


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## Shang Qin Li

maraki35605 said:


> rather rascal


 
Why not ? It fits in. Ya sou (sorry I don't have the greek letters)


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## JeanDeSponde

maraki35605 said:


> rather rascal


This has neither the "whore" meaning, nor the "beggar" or "vile" ones.
And my dictionary says "often used affectionately".
Are you translating the right-wing activist feeling about Republic, or your own one?..
But well, it's your move...


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## Shang Qin Li

Dear JeanDeSponde
I am reponding to your post, because I, too, feel concerned.
No, I am not expressing my own feeling. This not a political forum, and in any case I always keep out of politics. Not for me. And of course, I can't speak for Maraki. I, like MooPalace and others are trying to find an english word for "La Gueuse" in the given context. I don't think the right-wingers of the time had a special liking towards the Republic. Maraki decided he would use "rascal". I wouldn't have picked up that word myself, but if he likes it, it's OK with me. As regards my own choice, I think "bitch" is not that far from what they meant, but there may be a better term... a euphemism I may have missed. I'll try and see if I can find something more adequate, somewhere. In the meantime what word would YOU suggest ? You are French, older than me, and obviously have more experience. I am sure you can come up with something.


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## bh7

"Strumpet" might be a better choice here for "loose woman" than more modern equivalents.  " La Gueuse ", that "strumpet Marianne."


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## Shang Qin Li

bh7 said:


> "Strumpet" might be a better choice here for "loose woman" than more modern equivalents. " La Gueuse ", that "strumpet Marianne."


 
According to the OD and Webster's, a strumpet is an old word for prostitute. So I am not too sure since not a single one of the words suggested until now has aroused the other members' enthusiasm.  I am still searching  what it is they really meant at the time by "La Gueuse", wishing I Knew someone who lived through that period of History.


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## maraki35605

First of all, maraki is a female name. Secondly, when we translate, we have to transmit the feeling of the text and the meaning the writer wants to give to his phrases.
And finally, I think, I have already justified my choice. You can check close the previous quotes and you'll find it.


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## tbwtg

This is an old discussion thread but I found it following a Wikipedia reference to 'la Gueuse'. I've seen the previous discussion of 'rascal' etc but nothing about the feminine personalisation of the Republic, Marianne. Weren't the right attacking this feminine heroine-figure as well as the perceived corruption of democratic left-wing politicians and the civil servants? If there's a suggestion that Marianne was of loose morals even if perhaps not clever enough to be a prostitute (pute), how about the English 'slag' as a terse alternative to 'slut'? 'Down with the slag Republic' sounds like a reasonable street slogan, shorter and more pointed than 'slapper Republic' or 'tarty Republic' and more verbally fluent than 'slut Republic'.

FWIW. Any thoughts?


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## Grop

Hello, it may be a good idea, for all I know.

As we said, _gueuse_ could either mean whore or just mean she's not part of the nobility. So when the royalists called this symbol a gueuse, they were using a derogatory term, suggesting she might be a prostitute, without explicitly claiming that.


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