# 那儿



## Willeith

I find a proper translation for the 那儿 in that kind of sentences :

*书在他那儿*
或者
*去朋友那儿*

I can understand as a simple "there" : 我去那儿, but not the other ones.

Thank you for help.

[Edit:] Ok i finally found it :
他那儿:His place.


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## Sun14

Willeith said:


> Ok i finally found it :
> 他那儿:His place.



Not really. It it fine to translate it as "he took the book". The context varies and "his place" will not work.


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## SuperXW

Sun14 said:


> Not really. It it fine to translate it as "he took the book". The context varies and "his place" will not work.


With all due respect, even "his place" is not accurate enough, how can you translate 书在他那儿 as "he took the book"? What if someone else left the book at his place?


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## Sun14

SuperXW said:


> With all due respect, even "his place" is not accurate enough, how can you translate 书在他那儿 as "he took the book"? What if someone else left the book at his place?



Because there is no context. This version would fit in most contexts. wouldn't it?


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## SuperXW

Sun14 said:


> Because there is no context. This version would fit in most contexts. wouldn't it?


I feel "his place" fits as many contexts as "he took the book", maybe more. I don't think "his place" just mean "his home". It could also be "his desk", "his bag", couldn't it?


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## Sun14

His place also belongs to him. If you want to take it, will you go to his place alone? You'd better contact him first and then go with him to his place to take the book. Thus, "he took the book" will probably work fine. Chinese is a more flexible language. If we see things from a different perspective, we can see it more clearly.


SuperXW said:


> I feel "his place" fits as many contexts as "he took the book", maybe more. I don't think "his place" just mean "his home". It could also be "his desk", "his bag", couldn't it?


Definitely not. If he took your book and held it, How could you refer such an act as his place?


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## M Mira

While "his place" may not be the best translation, its meaning is general enough for most situations.

Consider this: in speech, when people say "there", and it doesn't refer to an aforementioned location, then they'll either turn their heads or point their fingers in the general direction. In Chinese, we can do this "pointing" even in speech, by attach the referred "landmark" before "there", hence the construction you see.

However, this construction may, instead of indicating physical proximity, indicate genitive attributes. So if 他 is current sitting at a library checkout, it is ambiguous where the book is. Depending on context, the book may either be on the checkout table, in his cubicle in the office, or even in his home. There's no indication about who put the book there. Maybe someone is about to check the book out so the book is on the table, maybe it's one of the new books in the collection, and it's "he"'s job to label the inventory so they're left at his cubicle, maybe he checked the book out himself a few days ago and is currently on his bed at home. So "his place" is perhaps the best catch-all for all the possibilities.


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## Sun14

M Mira said:


> While "his place" may not be the best translation, its meaning is general enough for most situations.
> 
> Consider this: in speech, when people say "there", and it doesn't refer to an aforementioned location, then they'll either turn their heads or point their fingers in the general direction. In Chinese, we can do this "pointing" even in speech, by attach the referred "landmark" before "there", hence the construction you see.
> 
> However, this construction may, instead of indicating physical proximity, indicate genitive attributes. So if 他 is current sitting at a library checkout, it is ambiguous where the book is. Depending on context, the book may either be on the checkout table, in his cubicle in the office, or even in his home. There's no indication about who put the book there. Maybe someone is about to check the book out so the book is on the table, maybe it's one of the new books in the collection, and it's "he"'s job to label the inventory so they're left at his cubicle, maybe he checked the book out himself a few days ago and is currently on his bed at home. So "his place" is perhaps the best catch-all for all the possibilities.



I don't think so. Why shall we stick with "那儿". Why not consider saying it another way. Again, Chinese is a flexible language which contains the wisdom and philosophy of thousands of years ancient Chinese people. You can't stick with the literal meaning. I see another context:

A and B are chatting and A asks B: "Did you see my book that I just put on the table". "Yes, Tom(he) took the book a minute ago. 

In Chinese, "Yes, Tom(he) took the book a minute ago." is totally equivalent to “书在他那儿”. And How could you render "his place" in this context?


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## M Mira

Sun14 said:


> I don't think so. Why shall we stick with "那儿". Why not consider saying it another way. Again, Chinese is a flexible language which contains the wisdom and philosophy of thousands of years ancient Chinese people. You can't stick with the literal meaning. I see another context:
> 
> A and B are chatting and A asks B: "Did you see my book that I just put on the table". "Yes, Tom(he) took the book a minute ago.
> 
> In Chinese, "Yes, Tom(he) took the book a minute ago." is totally equivalent to “书在他那儿”. And How could you render "his place" in this context?


I think I have already pointed out that "书在他那儿" could very well fit in a situation where 他 has never touched the book at all, and instead someone else put it on the desk in front of him or in his cubicle.


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## Sun14

This shows the different context, so I think we should end up with some agreement.


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## M Mira

Sun14 said:


> This shows the different context, so I think we should end up with some agreement.


But your translation only works within certain contexts, while OP's works most of the time in meaning.


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## Sun14

M Mira said:


> But your translation only works within certain contexts, while OP's works most of the time in meaning.



 Could you please take a look at #7. I have explained it.


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## M Mira

Sun14 said:


> Could you please take a look at #7. I have explained it.


I could as well claim that "Ask him about the book" is a proper translation following that explanation.


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## Skatinginbc

那儿 "there", like 那裡 "there", 這儿 "here", and 這裡 "here", is a locative pronoun that can be either anaphoric (referring back to aforementioned information) or deictic (inferrable only from contextual information). 

书在那儿 = 书在那裡 "The book is over there".  Where is "there"?  It is the  location that either has been mentioned in prior conversation or can be  inferred from the context (e.g., the eye contact and hand gesture of the  speaker).

书在*他*那儿 = 书在*他*那裡 "The  book is there, a place pertaining to him".  What is "there, a place  pertaining to him"?  It could mean "there in his custody", "there in his  possession", "there where he is located", or "there on his body",  depending on the context.  Thus 书在*他*那儿 (= 书在*他*那裡) could mean 书在*他*手裡, 书在*他*家裡, and so forth, depending on the context.

书在*他*這儿 ≠ 书在*他*那儿 ==> 這 and 那 have directional functions (like "here" and "there"). 

他去朋友那儿 He went there, a place pertaining to a friend of his.  

*他*那儿 and 朋友那儿 are locative.


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## Sun14

If this is a translation, the commissioner asks the translator to include "his place". That is fine, and there is no need to discuss. However, if this happens in everyday conversation. I cannot think of any necessity to include his place.


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## brofeelgood

Here's a crude way of simplifying it:

那儿 = there
这儿 = here

(他)那儿 = there (where he is)
(我)这儿 = here (where I am)
去(他)那儿 = go there (where he is), e.g. 我今晚去他那儿 = literally I'm going there (where he is) tonight
在(他)那儿 = be there (where he is) = be with him, e.g. 书在他那儿 = the book is there (where he is) = the book is with him

I disagree that "He took the book" is an equivalent. He could have taken the book and given it to someone else. 在他那儿 would then be totally off.


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## Sun14

brofeelgood said:


> Here's a crude way of simplifying it:
> 
> 那儿 = there
> 这儿 = here
> 
> (他)那儿 = there (where he is)
> (我)这儿 = here (where I am)
> 去(他)那儿 = go there (where he is), e.g. 我今晚去他那儿 = literally I'm going there (where he is) tonight
> 在(他)那儿 = be there (where he is) = be with him, e.g. 书在他那儿 = the book is there (where he is) = the book is with him
> 
> I disagree that "He took the book" is an equivalent. He could have taken the book and given it to someone else. 在他那儿 would then be totally off.



I cannot understand your logic. “书在他那儿” is a generally used response to "did you see my book". The reason why we cannot find the book is that he took it. In order to find the book, you must find him. In this sense, I could still stick with “书在他那儿”. Even he gave it to others.


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## Skatinginbc

A: Did John take the book?
B: No, he didn't.  It was me who took the book.  But I left it in John's house.  The book is now at his place 书在他那儿.


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## Sun14

Skatinginbc said:


> A: Did John take the book?
> B: No, he didn't.  It was me who took the book.  But I left it in John's house.  The book is now at his place 书在他那儿.



I think in the end, John will bring the book to you.


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## M Mira

張三：我的書是王五拿的嗎？
李四：不，雖然書在他那兒，但是是我今早放的。
張三：他今天請了假，不會過來了，方便把書拿回來還我嗎？
李四：好的。

王五 isn't involved at all.

And in speech, tā can be like anything:

我兒子和泰迪熊玩過之後書就不見了，我想說會不會掉在泰迪熊那裡，過去一看，果然沒錯，書在tā那兒。

A teddy bear can't take a book.


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## Sun14

M Mira said:


> 張三：我的書是王五拿的嗎？
> 李四：不，雖然書在他那兒，但是是我今早放的。
> 張三：他今天請了假，不會過來了，方便把書拿回來還我嗎？
> 李四：好的。
> 
> 王五 isn't involved at all.
> 
> And in speech, tā can be like anything:
> 
> 我兒子和泰迪熊玩過之後書就不見了，我想說會不會掉在泰迪熊那裡，過去一看，果然沒錯，書在tā那兒。
> 
> A teddy bear can't take a book.



I could say you are so creative in context-making. Nice try.


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## SuperXW

"He took the book" is your speculation, not a translation. The others' posts are direct proofs of that, you can't deny them.
"His place" may not be absolutely right, at least it helps learners to understand the usage of the words. But your speculation can be misleading. If 书在他那儿=他拿了书, I can easily set you up by putting others books in your place, then claiming "you took the book." I don't think this logic works in any court.


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## Sun14

SuperXW said:


> "He took the book" is your speculation, not a translation. The others' posts are direct proofs of that, you can't deny them.
> "His place" may not be absolutely right, at least it helps learners to understand the usage of the words. But your speculation can be misleading. If 书在他那儿=他拿了书, I can easily set you up by putting others books in your place, then claiming "you took the book." I don't think this logic works in any court.



I can deny them. I think you should figure out the meaning of "cannot", then describe me like that. Again, I was providing a version instead of imposing it on you. You are welcome to make judgement and comment. I try to be open-minded when dealing with translations and different contexts. I hope you understand. Thank you.


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## Skatinginbc

He who is in denial can deny everything.  Translations out of context are often moot, so let's discuss specific contexts, for example:
1. 书在他那儿很安全, 没人會碰 ==> The book is safe at his place.  
2. A: 我的书跑那儿了?  B: 书在他那儿 (pointing at a book on the desk near where their son is standing) ==> The book is over there, near where he is. 
3. 我一回头，发现我的书在他那儿，才一轉眼，书就被他五马分尸了 ==> The book was in his possession. 
_I discovered that he took my book_ vs. _I discovered that my book was in his possession_.


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## Sun14

Skatinginbc said:


> He who is in denial can deny everything.  Translations out of context are often moot, so let's discuss specific contexts, for example:
> 1. 书在他那儿很安全, 没人會碰 ==> The book is safe at his place.
> 2. A: 我的书跑那儿了?  B: 书在他那儿 (pointing at a book on the desk near where their son is standing) ==> The book is over there, near where he is.
> 3. 我一回头，发现我的书在他那儿，才一轉眼，书就被他五马分尸了 ==> The book was in his possession.
> _I discovered that he took my book_ vs. _I discovered that my book was in his possession_.



Thank you very much.


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## yuechu

I have a question about usage in Taiwan. Would it be more common to say "书在他那儿" or "书在他那里" in Taiwan? (I think that even though there is not usually 儿话音 in Taiwan, 那儿 and 这儿 are still used sometimes, right?)


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## M Mira

baosheng said:


> I have a question about usage in Taiwan. Would it be more common to say "书在他那儿" or "书在他那里" in Taiwan? (I think that even though there is not usually 儿话音 in Taiwan, 那儿 and 这儿 are still used sometimes, right?)


這裡、那裡、哪裡 are more common than 這兒、那兒、哪兒 in Taiwan, but the ones with 兒 are still common enough to be not out of place, compared to lājī and 立馬 that immediately tell everyone that you are not from Taiwan.

Also, 這、那、哪 are often used alone as well, which perhaps came from dropping the final 兒 in speech, so 『書在他那』、『書在我這』、『書在哪？』can also be heard.


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## Skatinginbc

M Mira said:


> 『書在他那』、『書在我這』、『書在哪？』


Do you feel the vowel length is prolonged somewhat in those cases as if there are minimal pairs: 那 /na/ "that" vs 那 /na:/ "there"; 這 /zhe/ "this" vs 這 /zhe:/ "here", 哪 /na/ "which" vs. 哪 /na:/ "where"?


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## M Mira

Skatinginbc said:


> Do you feel the vowel length is prolonged somewhat in those cases as if there are minimal pairs: 那 /na/ "that" vs 那 /na:/ "there"; 這 /zhe/ "this" vs 這 /zhe:/ "here", 哪 /na/ "which" vs. 哪 /na:/ "where"?


Now you mention it, yes, I think so.


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## yuechu

I have a different question about 那儿 and 哪儿.

I was watching a 电视剧 set in 上海 today and one of the characters uses 儿话音. He says 那儿 and 哪儿 instead of 那里 and 哪里. Would this normally (or likely) mean that he is 北方人 or do some 上海人 also use 儿话音 when speaking Mandarin?
(Just curious!)

Thanks!


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