# verstand es in einer Weise (1950 text)



## sedmont

*The German sentence below was written in 1950.

I don't know if I've understood the red German phrase below and translated it properly into English. Thank you very much for any assistance.*
___________________________________________________________

Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.

Smith understood how to so enter into the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, into the person's particular life situation or life tasks, that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


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## Kajjo

rephrased: _Smith verstand es, auf die Gedanken jedes einzelnen Menschen in einer derartigen Art und Weise einzugehen, dass...

Smith knew how to...
Smith was able to...
_
Please distinguish between two meanings of "verstehen": _(1) to understand; (2) to know how, to be able to
_
Please also note the wrong translation of "eingehen". This is not at all about "to enter thoughts", but means "to cater to / to respond to".

_Smith geht auf die Gedanken jedes einzelnen Menschen so ein, dass...
Smith caters to the thoughts of every individual person in a way, that...
Smith responds to the thoughts of every individual person in a way, that...




_


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## bearded

A question for Kajjo:
There is both _in einer Weise _and _so.  _Do you think that both refer to the subsequent _dass, _or could here _in einer Weise _mean ''in a certain way'', like _in gewisser Weise_?
Thank you.


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> There is both _in einer Weise _and _so. _Do you think that both refer to the subsequent _dass, _or could here _in einer Weise _mean ''in a certain way'', like _in gewisser Weise_?


That's a good question and I wondered myself about it. For me, it is unclear, how the sentence is meant and I don't feel the phrasing in this regard to be particularly idiomatic. In spoken language, the intonation would make the meaning clear; in written language it is our choice how to read it.

(1) Old-fashioned phrasing, without stress; with comma in actual position

_Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf Menschen einzugehen, so dass...
Smith somehow knew, to respond to people...
_
(2)  With comma in revised position, with stress on "Weise". This is the modern, idiomatic way to put it:

_Smith verstand es, in einer [solchen/derartigen] Weise auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, dass..._
<equivalent to _so... dass; in a certain way_>



bearded said:


> or could here _in einer Weise _mean ''in a certain way'', like _in gewisser Weise_?


Even if we assume it is meant as "in a certain way", the construction is still "_in einer solchen Weise, dass..._" equivalent to "_so...dass_", isn't it?


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## sedmont

Kajjo and bearded, thank you both.  

About "eingehen" -- "respond" might be correct in this particular example -- but "cater" in the sentence could suggest Smith to be a kind of manipulator or someone without any identity of his own.

Bearded and anyone else, what do you think about the translation of "eingehen" as "enter into"?


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> rephrased: _Smith verstand es, auf die Gedanken jedes einzelnen Menschen in einer derartigen Art und Weise einzugehen, dass..._


I'm not sure that it can be rephrased like that.

My understanding:

Smith verstand es *in einer Weise*, auf die Gedanken [...]  so einzugehen, dass ....
= Smith verstand es *gewissermaßen*, auf die Gedanken [...]  *so* einzugehen, dass

Cf. (Ich habe die #3 & #4 erst nachträglich gelesen):



bearded said:


> or could here _in einer Weise _mean ''in a certain way'', like _in gewisser Weise_?





Kajjo said:


> Even if we assume it is meant as "in a certain way", the construction is still "_in einer solchen Weise, dass..._" equivalent to "_so...dass_", isn't it?


No, I don't think so.The result would be
_"in einer solchen Weise * so*, ... dass_"


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## bearded

For what it's worth, I tend to agreeing with JClaude as concerns 'in einer Weise'.
<Eingehen = enter into> No, I don't think it's correct (that should be 'hineingehen..in die Gedanken.'.):
'Auf etwas eingehen' means 'to deal with something' or, more freely, to react/respond to something in a certain way.


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## wandle

Can 'in einer Weise' be taken with 'so einzugehen'? In other words, 'Smith knew how to deal in a certain way with ...'


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## sedmont

*The back and forth above has me wondering if the the sentence is a little redundant, because "in einer Weise" and "so" seem to have a similar meaning: *
_________________________________________________________________

Smith verstand es *in einer Weise*, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.

Smith knew *in a certain way* how to respond to the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, to the person's particular life situation or life tasks, *in such a way* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.
_________________________________________________________________
​*Then again, perhaps it could be like this, which seems less redundant:*

Smith knew *in a sense *how to respond to the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, to the person's particular life situation or life tasks, *in such a way* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.
_________________________________________________________________
​Do people agree with the underlined translation?


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## ayuda?

sedmont said:


> Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.
> 
> Smith understood how to so enter into the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, into the person's particular life situation or life tasks, that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.





▶I, personally, would phrase it like this because I have a very different interpretation about certain other sections. I also find the original translation too halting. I also just think it should flow a little better in English:

Smith *understood* in a certain way *how to* *respond to* *each individual’s* thoughts and feelings,
their *particular/special/specific situation in life/life’s circumstances* and *purpose/mission/ in life [vocation]*;
therefore, a genuine humane trust always developed quickly.


*auf* etwas *eingehen* = respond to
*jedes einzelnen Menschen* = each individual’s
*besondere* = particular/special/specific
*Lebenslage* = situation in life/life’s circunstances
*Lebensaufgabe* = purpose/mission/ in life [vocation]
*so* = therefore
*menschlich* =human/humane


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## sedmont

Ayuda, thank you much.



> Ayuda said:
> I also find the original translation too halting.



My first goal is to get the literal meaning in the German, even though that will often be stilted in English. Only once I have the literal meaning do I feel confident that I won't distort the original when I start making leaps into idiomatic English.

You have "so" as "therefore," but in the sentence in question, "so" does not seem to function as "therefore." Unless I'm mistaken, there it means "in such a way" or perhaps, "to such an extent".

I have below incorporated some of your phrasing.


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## sedmont

*Is either of the two English translations below on target?*

Smith verstand es *in einer Weise*, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.
____________________________________________

*A)* Smith knew *in a sense *how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *in such a way* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.

*B)* Smith knew *in a certain way* how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *to such an extent* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


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## ayuda?

*[IMHO]*
▶* Re: idiomatic: *I don’t really consider what I wrote down to be idiomatic.
Concerning accurate and historical/technical, they are not necessarily incompatible. [lol]
No doubt, though—it is a challenge when that kind of specialized technical/literary German is used.
The natives seemed to verify the complicated nature of stuff like this.  Reminds me of English “legalease.”

*Re:* * …auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein  echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.*
▶As far as *“so”* is concerned here, I don’t think you would even translate that.
If you wanted to, I suppose you could say “*in such a way.” *And since you used “*in a sense” *it doesn’t sound redundant.
▶I put *so* [therefore] at the end just to carry over that _general meaning and idea_ at the end of the statement instead.
[That’s the only looseness I might have given to the translation as I see it. There are all kinds of instances like this in German, as I am sure you know. Sometimes you need just a tiny bit of leeway, as you seemed to do at the end here as well. I don’t think that, when all is said and done, the core meaning is altered at all. That’s the bottom line, the real standard.]

▶You know your German, so the choice is yours.
[Because of the attention to detail, I was just wondering if you are doing this for a Master’s or something like that…looks that way??]


▶Other opinions always welcome


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## Gernot Back

sedmont said:


> Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.


We couldn't phrase it any better in 2017!


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## Kajjo

JClaudeK said:


> No, I don't think so.The result would be
> _"in einer solchen Weise * so*, ... dass_"


No, "solchen" and "so" would be doubled. Either is enough, and then it works properly.


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## sedmont

*Is either of the two English translations below on target?*

Smith verstand es *in einer Weise*, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.
____________________________________________

*A)* Smith knew *in a sense *how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *in such a way* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.

*B)* Smith knew *in a certain way* how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *to such an extent* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


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## JClaudeK

*B)* would be my option.


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## bearded

And mine, too.


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## sedmont

JClaudeK and bearded, and others,

I left out a third option, and I wonder if you think it more accurate than *B*.

*B* interprets the German "so" as an intensifier. 
*C* interprets the German "so" with the kind of English "so" that means "in such a way."
_______________________________________________________

Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.

*B) *Smith knew in a certain way how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *to such an extent* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.
*
C) *Smith knew in a certain way how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *so *that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


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## bearded

Well, ''so that'' just indicates a consequence in English - I think (like in ''I was ill, so (that) I couldn't work''),  whereas in German ''so einzugehen, dass...'' means ''to respond in such a way that...'', i.e. 'so' modifies 'einzugehen'.  The difficulty in translating this ''so'' is avoiding to repeat the same words as for ''in einer Weise'' (see my post #3 and JCK's #6 above).

Maybe one could render ''in einer Weise'' as ''so to speak'', and the subsequent ''so'' as ''in such a way'':
Smith knew, so to speak, how to respond.........,in such a way that....

 Your previous B ''in a certain way'' and then... ''to such an extent'' represented (although not fully precise) a more acceptable solution in my view.


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## JClaudeK

sedmont said:


> *so *that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


"so that" would fit too, IMO.


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## sedmont

Thank you both.


bearded said:


> Your previous B ''in a certain way'' and then... ''to such an extent'' represented (although not fully precise) a more acceptable solution in my view.


Okay. Maybe it's the best. My only question about "to such an extent" is that it conveys the impression that Smith could not only do it, but do it to a remarkable or great extent, and I wasn't sure if the German sentence actually says that. But perhaps it is ambiguous.


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## bearded

So = to such an extent?
Hmm, the actual meaning of 'so' (like in English, I think) is ''in such a way/in such a manner'',  and ''to such an extent'' is an extension/expansion of that meaning (legitimate in my opinion, especially if you want to avoid repetition of ''in a...way'').  I think it is now a style choice on your part - please see also #15 and 17 above.


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## sedmont

bearded, thank you.

I understand the repetition issue, and will avoid the repetition people have pointed out.

In English, "so" can mean something like "so much" or "to such a large extent":

"He is so good."
"He is so exhausted."
"He so gorged himself on food."

In German _so _can apparently also be used in that way, at least according to this:
so - English translation – Linguee
Der Reiseführer war so hilfreich.
The tour guide was so helpful.

Perhaps the example sentences show that this use of "so" is not just an expansion/extension of "in such a way" -- but a distinct meaning.


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## bearded

Since I'm not 100% sure, I hope that Germans - with their native Sprachgefühl - will tell you whether here 'so' can be equivalent to 'so sehr/so viel', or whether you rather have to stick to the ''in a certain way....so that'' translation.

edit:
written before seeing your last addition


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## Gernot Back

Gernot Back said:


> We couldn't phrase it any better in 2017!


I think, I have to correct myself: There are some mistakes in this sentence: The position of the comma is wrong and either *in einer Weise* or *so* is absolutely redundant and superfluous.





sedmont said:


> Smith verstand es, in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.


Whether you choose *in einer Weise* or *so* is irrelevant for the consecutive meaning of the subordinate clause, but you shouldn't use them together.

By the way: Which _Mr. _or _Mrs. Smith _are we talking about in this sentence?  Are we talking about Joseph Smith after all, this gaga prophet (founder of the _Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints_, also known as _Mormons_)? The whole sentence sounds kind of promotional!


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## bearded

Oh, I thought we had to interpret the text as it is, not to amend it...  Is an alteration complying with (apparent) correct grammar rules not the easiest way of escape...? (No offense meant).


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## Hutschi

sedmont said:


> *...*
> ___________________________________________________________
> 
> Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe so einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.
> 
> Smith understood how to so enter into the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, into the person's particular life situation or life tasks, that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.



I take the phrase as given and as wanted by the author, alternate versions were discussed before.

In the given phrasing including comma, I understand it this way:

Smith was in a certain way able to consider the thoughts and feelings of every individual person, also the person's particular life situation or life tasks, -  and react in a way that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.

(I wrote "in a certain way able" rather than "able in a certain way" to make it clear. I do not know if it is idiomatic but I read such sequences in English texts. You can rephrase it, of course. But take care with the following part of the sentence.)

"Eingehen" has two components in the given context: 1. to understand and consider + 2. to react in a proper way
I do not know a good English phrase for this, so I separated the meanings in my translation.

The comma is unexpected after "in einer Weise" and changes the sense compared to the expected "Smith verstand, es in einer Weise ..."
It is an example why the comma is necessary for infinitive with "zu" constructions.

PS: Almost a synonym to "in einer Weise" is "in gewisser Weise" in the given context. (As discussed by the others above). This changes totally if the comma is moved.


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## Gernot Back

Hutschi said:


> I take the phrase as given and as wanted by the author, alternate versions were discussed before.


I don't think, this sentence makes any sense with the comma after _Weise _instead of _es_, not even with the old punctuation rules valid in 1950_. 
_
In case you put a comma after the _es_, this _es _is a correlate (i.e. a cataphoric placeholder) for the *following *first-degree infinitive sentence (as a content clause, _Objektsatz_) including a second-degree consecutive subordinate clause, which in turn is pre-announced by *either *a correlate _so _*or *_in einer Weise_.

If you put the comma after _Weise_, the following nested subordinate clauses would refer to this _Weise _(most likely as an attributive clause). The _es _would not work as a cataphoric placeholder but as an anaphora with a referent in the preceding context.


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## Hutschi

Smith verstand es in einer Weise, ..., daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.
Smith verstand es so, ..., daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.


The problem: If it is not just a typo, we have to take the sentence as it is. We can make proposals assuming it is typo, of course.


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## sedmont

*In English, "so" can mean something like "so much" or "to such a large extent":*

"He is so good."
"He is so exhausted."
"He so gorged himself on food."

*A question:* Can I therefore translate the German "so" as follows?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.

Smith knew in a certain way how to respond to each individual person's thoughts and feelings, to the person's particular life situation or life task, *so much/to such a large extent* that a genuine human trust always quickly developed.


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## bearded

In your examples, sedmont, 'so' always precedes an adjective or participial adjective.  ''So dass...'' + verb  is something different, and I still hope that natives will confirm whether ''so, dass'' can mean ''to such a large extent that''...


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## sedmont

Thank you for the reply, bearded.



bearded said:


> In your examples, sedmont, 'so' always precedes an adjective or participial adjective.  ''So dass...'' + verb  is something different, and I still hope that natives will confirm whether ''so, dass'' can mean ''to such a large extent that''...



"He so gorged himself on food." "He gorged himself so."
"He so tired himself." "He tired himself so."

In the examples immediately above, are "gorged" and "tired" functioning as participial adjectives? Don't gorged and tired function as past tense forms of "gorge" and "tire"? Hmm, actually, maybe you have a point there.

*To anyone, if possible reply to post #31.*


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## Gernot Back

sedmont said:


> To anyone, if possible reply to post #31.





sedmont said:


> Smith verstand es in einer Weise, auf die Gedanken und Empfindungen jedes einzelnen Menschen, auf dessen besondere Lebenslage oder Lebensaufgabe *so* einzugehen, daß sich immer rasch ein echt menschliches Vertrauen entwickelte.


This repetitive_ *in einer Weis*_*e* and _*so* _is still redundant and at least bad style, if not logical nonsense!


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## sedmont

Gernot Back (and others),
Very well, but what answer would you give to the question I asked in #31?


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## Gernot Back

sedmont said:


> Gernot Back (and others),
> Very well, but what answer would you give to the question I asked in #31?


Yes, of course you could translate it that way, I would understand what you mean, but I would still consider it redundant and bad style, even in English. I guess, if you want to convey the redundancy from the German original, you would almost have to translate it that way.

Can you answer my question #26, too: Which Mr. or Mrs. Smith are we actually talking about?


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## sedmont

Gernot, sorry if I sounded peremptory in asking your view. My sole purpose was not to offend but to find out whether "so" in its position in the sentence in question might have been intended to mean "so much" "to such a large extent," or can only mean "in such a way" -- I understand your position that it is redundant, and I would not be the least surprised if in fact it is. I think some others in the thread have said as much. My question nevertheless holds as to the _intention _of the person who wrote the sentence when he wrote "so".

Thank you very much for your contributions to the discussion.

No, this is not about Joe Smith in Utah.


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