# Urdu, Hindi, Persian: fundamentalist



## marrish

Hello,

I've been wondering about this word - fundamentalist - in Urdu and Hindi since I saw a web page on which the BBC team published a mini-glossary for the use of journalists.

For Urdu, the word given was _bunyaad-parast_ *بنیاد پرست* and fundamentalism - _bunyaad-parastii_ *بنیاد پرستی* whereas for Hindi the word is _kaTTarpanthii _*कट्टरपंथी*. 

Funnily enough I am familiar with the Hindi word but I don't remember having heard or read the Urdu one!

Please share your views about these words and do suggest any other possibilities.

Thank you in advance.

PS May I ask the moderators to expand it to Persian please? [Thank you!]


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## littlepond

The Urdu word is formed _from_ the English word, rather than being an original word. The Hindi word is rather an original one in itself, and refers to someone who is _kaTTar_ in his views: that is, rigid, strictly following the letter, undeviating, (from his or her worldview), not hesitating to implement/impose his or her views on others.


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## Jervoltage

Hi,

In Persian, these words come to mind: اصولگرا osul-garaa; بنیادگرا bonyaad-garaa


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## fdb

Jervoltage said:


> Hi,
> 
> In Persian, these words come to mind: اصولگرا osul-garaa; بنیادگرا bonyaad-garaa



Both (if I am not mistaken) recent calques on the English. Neither has any basis in traditional Islamic theological vocabulary.


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## Sheikh_14

Marrish Saahib though as is quite commonly the case amonst the Urdu-phone literati local technical vocabulary is usually shunned for their English alternatives, the case here is no different. However, bunyaad-parast/ ii is by no means uncommon and most certainly a term used for the lakiir ka fakiir brand of religious, political and cultural ideologies taken up by cultish cadres. This is most certainly a recent coinage and comparable to the original English term as littlepond has suggested. Kattar is obviously a highly used word for the rigidly devout folk in Urdu and thence you feel more at ease with it. As with if there are any historical terms in this regard, lets wait and see. 

On the other hand for those not in the know the suffix parast in Urdu is almost a complete fit with the English suffix - ist under quite a few circumstances. bunyaad-parast- fundamentalist. Qaum-parast Nationalist, Sarmaaya-parast Capitalist. I am sure there are more but at this time of day those are the ones that came to mind in a pulse-beat.


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## marrish

For Urdu I agree with fdb SaaHib, though his remarks are about Persian words, that _bunyaad-parast_ is a calque, as littlepond jii said. I find this calque hard to understand and not very useful though it seems current! I'm not content with it.


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## Cilquiestsuens

marrish Sb!

I agree with you and understand your frustration. I  however think that this is simply due to the English word itself, which  is flawed. This word's _aave kaa aavaa hii_ is _bigRaa huaa_. Pardon my French.

I  remember hearing a preacher - I don't like - say something completely  right: there is nothing wrong believing firmly in the fundamentals of  your religion. Therefore any believer of any religion ought to be called a  fundamentalist. So it seems that the connotations associated with the  word are quite contrary to logic and out of place.

Other words belonging to the same semantic field seem to make more sense: extremist (_*shiddat-pasand*_ in Urdu, _*mutaTarrif*_ in Ar.) / extremism (*shiddat-pasandi* / *taTarruf*) or literalist (*7arfii*) / literalism (_*7arfiyyah*_).


_*kaTTar muslim*_ doesn't translate as fundamentalist, it is more simply: a hardline muslim.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> Both (if I am not mistaken) recent calques on the English. Neither has any basis in traditional Islamic theological vocabulary.



Yes, though اصولگرا is a political term, not religious, for "Principalist" while بنیادگرا (fundamentalist) is almost exclusively used for religious cases.


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## mundiya

The Hindi word for "fundamentalist" is also used for "fanatic".  Is this true for the Urdu and Persian words too?


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## HZKhan

mundiya said:


> The Hindi word for "fundamentalist" is also used for "fanatic".  Is this true for the Urdu and Persian words too?



People here normally use junooni/جنونی in that sense.


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## marrish

^ Very aptly so, thanks for your contribution. Do you have any idea how to say "fundamentalist"?


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## Wolverine9

The definitions of fundamentalist and fanatic overlap.  Does _junuunii _cover this or is the meaning more similar to _paagal _and _diivaana(a/h)_?  

For example, would _junuunii _fit the intended meaning in this sentence? "The members of ISIS are fanatics/fundamentalists."


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## Sheikh_14

Cilquiestsuens said:


> marrish Sb!
> 
> I agree with you and understand your frustration. I  however think that this is simply due to the English word itself, which  is flawed. This word's _aave kaa aavaa hii_ is _bigRaa huaa_. Pardon my French.
> 
> 
> Other words belonging to the same semantic field seem to make more sense: extremist (_*shiddat-pasand*_ in Urdu, _*mutaTarrif*_ in Ar.) / extremism (*shiddat-pasandi* / *taTarruf*) or literalist (*7arfii*) / literalism (_*7arfiyyah*_).
> 
> 
> _*kaTTar muslim*_ doesn't translate as fundamentalist, it is more simply: a hardline muslim.



Agree completely with regards to kattar Musalmaan is in line with what I said in my previous post. As for semantics your grief with fundamentalism is understandable. However, it must be understood that fundamentalism has little to do with fundamentals but instead another word for literalism or being a Lakiir ka Faqiir. Thus there is a severe difference between being devout and a rabid literalist that reads not for what it is in context and spirit but in letter only. I am content with the term since I am all too familiar with it. The point you are putting across can be met with with other terms perhaps like qawaid ka paaband, paaband e qawaid. I am sure folks like yourself and Marrish saahib can forge more.


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## eskandar

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I  remember hearing a preacher - I don't like - say something completely  right: there is nothing wrong believing firmly in the fundamentals of  your religion. Therefore any believer of any religion ought to be called a  fundamentalist. So it seems that the connotations associated with the  word are quite contrary to logic and out of place.
> 
> Other words belonging to the same semantic field seem to make more sense: extremist (_*shiddat-pasand*_ in Urdu, _*mutaTarrif*_ in Ar.) / extremism (*shiddat-pasandi* / *taTarruf*) or literalist (*7arfii*) / literalism (_*7arfiyyah*_).


I quite agree with this too. In the case of Persian as well, the more appropriate words are probably those which are more equivalent to 'extremist' or 'fanatic': تندرو _tondro_ or افراطی _efraatii_​.


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## Sheikh_14

Well for semantic solace you could use Intihaa Pasandii as well which is a synonym for Shiddat-pasandii and for hitting straight on the mark Lakiir-Parasti or for the linguistic purists Lakiir/ooN ki Faqiirii. But otherwise these are accepted terms and occasions where precision is required you can make yourself clear. For instance from a political perspective if you were trying to pitch the angle that Cilq has mentioned above you could merely state what you feel 'fundamentalism' stands for, in other words you would be taking a literalist stance on the matter itself. Languages are not always logical. 

Btw with regards to 7arfii and 7arfiyyah were these merely Arabic translations or they bear fruit in Urdu as well? Another question for Urdu-phones is that what is the Urdu alternative to the Hindi/Punjabi Panth meaning route/way? Kattar-Panth being in literal terms equivalent to taking the devout way. Tbh I don't see how Kattar-Panth is any better than Bunyaad Parast when Kattar equates to devout and not literalist didactism.


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## littlepond

^ "kaTTar" does not mean "devout" in any sense! It only means "strict, dogmatic, etc."

Here is a dictionary entry: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:3446.caturvedi


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## Sheikh_14

True "rigidly devout" would better describe it.


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## littlepond

^ No way! The word "kaTTar" in itself simply means strict/rigid/obstinate, and it is used in all kinds of situations. There is no "devout" element to it. "baRaa kaTTar insaan hai woh" doesn't mean anything related to religion: it simply means that the concerned person is very rigid about his ideas (he might be an agnostic for that matter!). One can even have a "kaTTar vaar": a sharp and solid blow.

That is why "fundamentalist" has a very good translation in Hindi, because "fundamentalist" in itself doesn't need to be related to religion.


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## tonyspeed

Sheikh_14 said:


> Kattar equates to devout and not literalist didactism.


*
Platts*
H کٿر कटर _kaṭar_, or कट्टर _kaṭṭar_ [S. कठरः; cf.  कठोरः], adj. & s.m. Hard, cruel, merciless, relentless;

*Raftaar*
कट्टर (Kattar) के लिए हिन्दी अर्थ



(व्यक्ति)  जो अपने मत,विचार,सिद्धांत आदि पर अंधविश्वास और उद्दंडतापूर्वक दृढ़ रहता  हो अथवा उसका समर्न करता हो और अपने विरोधियों से लड़ने के लिए तैयार रहता  हो।
 
(बिगाँट) दृढ़प्रतिज्ञ 
हठ धर्मी 

*de·vout* diˈvout/_ adjective_  - having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment.


In my opinion, devout is about commitment, kaTTar is about strictness. They have different connotations.


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## marrish

^ I agree with the last two posts. On a second thought and upon checking the referenced mini-glossary (I am sorry I didn't attach a link before, here you are: http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/urdu/language/glossary/article/art20140617121430424) I am surprised to see that there is another word in Hindi but written in the Urdu script: رُوڑھِی وَادِی रूढ़िवादी it ought to have been I suppose.



कट्टरपंथबुनियाद परस्तीFundamentalismبنیاد پرستیرُوڑھِی وَاد ، کٹرپنتھकट्टरपंथीबुनियाद परस्तीFundamentalistبنیاد پرسترُوڑھِی وَادِی ، کٹرپنتھی





The transcription is also not correct, leaving aside the core matter that the word is not OK - it should be बुन्याद परसत


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## littlepond

^ रूढ़िवादी means "orthodox", "narrow-minded", etc., marrish jii.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Isn't a रूढ़िवाद a 'reactionary person'? Equivalent to the Urdu رجعت پسند  (raj3at-pasand) ?


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## mundiya

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Isn't a रूढ़िवाद a 'reactionary person'? Equivalent to the Urdu رجعت پسند  (raj3at-pasand) ?



No, रूढ़िवाद means conservatism, and रूढ़िवादी means conservative, orthodox, etc.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thanks. 

How do you say reactionary in Hindi, then?


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