# Learn, apprendre...



## ThomasK

The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts: 

(a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
(b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
(c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)

As for Dutch: 
(a/ b) l*eren *
(c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)

French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.


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## apmoy70

In all three cases the verb we use in Greek is: 

*«Μαθαίνω»* [ma'θeno] < Classical v. *«μανθάνω» măntʰánō* --> _to learn, get to know, experience_ (PIE *mn̩-s-dʰh₁-, _placing (*dʰh₁-) one's mind (*mn̩-s)_, hence _wise_ cf Skt. मेधा (medhā), _wisdom, intelligence_; Av. mazdå, _spirit of wisdom_; Proto-Germanic *mundraz > Ger. munter; Proto-Slavic *mǫdrъ > OCS мѫдръ, _wise, sage_, Rus. мудрый, _wise_,  Bul. мъдър, BCS mudar/мудар, Cz. moudrý, Svk. múdry, Pol. mądry). 

But, for (c) we can also use:

*«Πληροφορούμαι»* [plirofo'rume] --> _I'm being informed_, Modern Greek calque (1840) in order to render the Fr. renseigner; in Koine Greek the v. existed in its active form *«πληροφορέω/πληροφορῶ» plērŏpʰŏréō* (uncontracted)/*plērŏpʰŏrô* (contracted) --> _to fulfil, pay in full_ < Classical fem. noun *«πληροφορίᾱ» plērŏpʰŏríā* --> _fullness of assurance, certainty_ cf Christian Scripture (Paul's epistle Thessalonians I, 1:5=> ὅτι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐγενήθη εἰς ὑμᾶς ἐν λόγῳ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐν δυνάμει καὶ ἐν Πνεύματι ῾Αγίῳ καὶ ἐν *πληροφορίᾳ πολλῇ*/For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in *much assurance*) < compound; Classical adj. *«πλήρης» plḗrēs* --> _full_ (PIE *pleh₁-, _to fill_ cf Skt. पिपर्ति (píparti), _to fill_; Lat. plērus, _most, almost all_) + ablaut form of Classical v. *«φέρω» pʰérō* --> _to bear, endure, carry, bring away, provide, reach, move along_ (PIE *bʰer-, _to bear, carry_ cf Skt. भार (bhāra), _payment, load, burden_; Proto-Slavic *bьrati, _to pick up, take_ > OCS бьрати, Rus. брать, Pol. brać). 
In Modern Greek the same word («πληροφορία» [plirofo'ri.a]) translates the Eng. information, Fr. renseignement.


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## ThomasK

/Matheno/ - any link with Prometheus? I suppose /meth/ is not the same as /math/ or is there a link?


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts:
> 
> (a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> As for Dutch:
> (a/ b) l*eren *
> (c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)
> 
> French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.



German:

(a) I am learning (the object can be mentioned, but doesn't have to be): Ich lerne.*
(b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience): Ich habe gelernt, das nicht zu tun (from experience).
(c) I have learnt that the meeting has been cancelled: Ich habe erfahren, dass die Konferenz nicht stattfindet.

(a) "lernen"/ "erlernen"
(b) "lernen"
(c) "erfahren"

* but: to learn a profession: einen Beruf erlernen. The "er-" seems to stress the fact that you are supposed to "complete the learning process". Then again, "er-" in "erfahren" doesn't seem to have this function: if you delete it you get "fahren" which means "to drive"


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> /Matheno/ - any link with Prometheus? I suppose /meth/ is not the same as /math/ or is there a link?


The predominant view is that «Προμηθεύς» Prometheus derives from the feminine 3rd decl. noun *«μῆτις» mêtīs* --> _measure, skill, craft_ (PIE *meh₁-, _to measure_ cf Lat. mētīrī, _to measure, estimate_ > Sp./Por. medir) therefore his name means _he-who-forethinks, he-who-is-cautious_.
Maths/mathematics on the other hand, does come from the same root with *μαθαίνω* as it derives (I quote from _Online Etymology Dictionary_): 

from Latin _mathematica_ (plural), from Greek _mathematike tekhne_ "mathematical science," feminine singular of _mathematikos_ (adj.) "relating to mathematics, scientific, astronomical; disposed to learn," from _mathema_ (genitive _mathematos_) "science, knowledge, mathematical knowledge; a lesson," literally "that which is learnt;" related to _manthanein_ "to learn"


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## Encolpius

*Hungarian *
(a) tanul (to learn)
(b) megtanul (perfect form)
(c) megtud (perfect form of the verb tud to know)


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## ThomasK

I am pasting information about Russian here from the other thread: 



> In Russian, the verb "to teach (smb.)" is equal to the verb "to learn (smth.)": учить /uch*i*t'/. That is quite interesting, I must note.
> Он *учил* мальчика плавать. - He taught (or "was teaching") the boy to swim.
> Кто тебя *учил* это так делать? - Who taught you to do it this way?
> 
> and on the other hand:
> 
> В школе мы *учим* химию. - We learn chemistry in school.
> Сейчас я *учу* стихотворение. - I am learning a rhyme now.
> 
> But this imperfective verb has different equivalents of perfective aspect, depending on the meaning: "научить" /nauch*i*t'/ (smb.) and "выучить" /v*y*uchit'/ (smth.).
> 
> Он *научил* меня всему, что знал. - He has taught me everything he knew.
> Я *выучил* английский хорошо. - I have learned English well.


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts:
> 
> (a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> As for Dutch:
> (a/ b) l*eren *
> (c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)
> 
> French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.



I am trying to squeeze the Russian system into the above scheme. Russian speakers might have a look at it (and will probably change it completely  )

The romanization I use should be the current ISO norm.

Whenever there are two options, the one on the left is the imperfective one (stressing the process, basically) and the one on the right is the perfective one (stressing the result rather than the process)

(a) (option 1) učit'sja/naučit'saja
(a) (option 2) izučat'/izučit'
(a) (option 3) zaučivat'/zaučit'
(a) (option 4) učit'/vyučit'
(b) naučit'sja (čemu na opyte)
(c) uznavat'/uznat'

I'd suggest these translations:

(a) (option 1) to learn (general, with or without object or with infinitive) / de: lernen
(a) (option 2) to learn (as part of an educational process, at school, uni etc), to study/ de: lernen, studieren 
(a) (option 3) to learn, to struggle learning, to try one's best learning / de: lernen, "büffeln"
(a) (option 4) to learn by heart / de: auswendig lernen 
(b) to learn (something from experience) / de: etwas (aus Erfahrung) lernen
(c) to learn (in the sense of : to find out about something, to gain new information) / de: (von) (etwas) erfahren

I might add that the translations for (a) (1-4) seem to apply to the respective imperfective versions (the ones on the left) rather than the perfective ones, as the latter category obviously stresses the result of all that  learning rather than the process; the translation 'to master' might be more suitable here.

The main 'building block' of the verbs in the groups (a) and (b) is -uč-, which can be prefixed and suffixed in lots of different ways, and I guess there are even more options than the ones above. The -sja suffix is actually, at least strictly grammatically, a reflexive suffix.

The main 'building block' of uznavat'/uznat' (c) is -zna- which forms the stem for znat'/znavat' = to know. Prefixed with u-, of course, you get uznavat'/uznat'. 

By the way, učit'/naučit' means 'to teach' (not to be confused with option a4; a4 has a similar imperfective version, but the perfective version is different). Another form to express 'to teach' is prepodavat'/


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## ThomasK

I'd be quite interested to hear about any suffixes and prefixes as they might betray something about the meaning and maybe the worldview behind it... (I am a wishful thinker ;-).


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## ger4

Yes, I wish I'd understand the meanings of all those mysterious Russian prefixes as well... They seem to have alternating meanings depending on the context, or rather, depending on the verb they're attached to.

Beginning with vy-, I think you could describe it as some kind of a completion marker. In some contexts, though, it can be an elative/moving-out-of-somewhere marker. From a German point of view, it's probably closest to German aus-, which normally has the elative function, i.e. moving out of somewhere: hin-aus-gehen = to go out = uit-gaan (?), but in some regions people use the term "auslernen" for "to finish a learning process", similar to Russian usage.


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## ThomasK

Wouldn't the _vy_- in German be more like _erlernen _(er- as indicating result) ?


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## ger4

As for the iz- prefix, I think it has roughly the same meaning. 

I'm trying to look at their meanings like this: Someone has passed a large stretch of woodland (does the expression 'stretch of woodland' exist?) Anyway, eventually he is getting OUT of the woods. Now he has reached his destination. He has COMPLETED his journey. - Hence the connection of OUT and COMPLETE

Isn't there an English idiomatic expression 'to be out of the woods' as well?


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> Wouldn't the _vy_- in German be more like _erlernen _(er- as indicating result) ?



Difficult question... On the one hand, I think we use the prefix er- to indicate that an action is performed with a view to be completed, somehow. But then again, it doesn't necessarily mean the action HAS BEEN completed already. 

As for a4 vyučit' (the one that uses vy-), it is a perfective verb. This means, of course, that the action (well, the learning action, as it were) has either been completed or will be completed in the future, but it doesn't describe the process of learning - whereas 'erlernen' does both:
- Er erlernt einen Beruf = Er lernt einen Beruf = He is currently training (?) for a job / learning a profession. (imperfective, from a Russian-grammar point of view)
- Er hat einen Beruf erlernt = He has (successfully) finished the training program (perfective)

Russian speakers welcome to help out...


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## bibax

Czech:

(a) I am learning ... (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
(b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
(c) I have learnt that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)

(a) *Učím se* ... (imperfective, reflexive)
(b) *Naučil jsem se* nedělat to. (perfective, verbal prefixe *na-*)
(c) *Dozvěděl jsem se*, že ... (perfective, reflexive, prefixes *do-* + *z-*, *věděti* = to know)

učiti = to teach, učiti se = to learn (lit. to teach oneself; the reflexive pronoun *se* is in accusative form, Ger. sich); the root is uk- (na*uk*a = (branch of) science) if a back vowel follows, uč- (*uč*itel = teacher) if a front vowel follows;

In Czech the reflexive pronoun _se_ _(učiti se)_ is very rarely omitted (mostly in answers: Učíš se? Učím.). In Russian the reflexive suffix _-sja (učiťsja)_ is often omitted if the context allows it.

In Czech there are two verbs meaning to know: věděti and znáti (like in Romance languages: saber, conocer).


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## ger4

bibax said:


> Czech:
> 
> (a) I am learning ... (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> (a) *Učím se* ... (imperfective, reflexive)
> (b) *Naučil jsem se* nedělat to. (perfective, verbal prefixe *na-*)
> (c) *Dozvěděl jsem se*, že ... (perfective, reflexive, prefixes *do-* + *z-*, *věděti* = to know)
> 
> učiti = to teach, učiti se = to learn (lit. to teach oneself; the reflexive pronoun *se* is in accusative form, Ger. sich); the root is uk- (na*uk*a = (branch of) science) if a back vowel follows, uč- (*uč*itel = teacher) if a front vowel follows;
> 
> In Czech the reflexive pronoun _se_ _(učiti se)_ is very rarely omitted (mostly in answers: Učíš se? Učím.). In Russian the reflexive suffix _-sja (učiťsja)_ is often omitted if the context allows it.
> 
> In Czech there are two verbs meaning to know: věděti and znáti (like in Romance languages: saber, conocer).



Czech seems to be easier in that respect than Russian. Would you say: whenever you add "-se" to verbs based on the "-uk-" stem you get the idea of "teaching oneself = to learn" whereas whenever you omit it you get the idea of "to teach"?

With regards to the stem of the Russian 'learning words' I have to correct myself: of course it is -uk- just as in Czech, thinking of examples like 'nauka' = 'science'

As for the difference between "věděti" and "znáti": I think its very similar to Polish and German as well: "wissen" and "kennen", whereas Russian uses znat' for both (just like English 'to know')
- I don't know - Ich weiß es nicht = Já nevím =  but Russian: Ja ne znaju.
- I know the problem = Ich kenne das Problem  = Já znám ten problém = Russian: Ja znaju ètu problemu


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## ger4

I'd better keep it short this time and try to make a summary of the prefixes, infixes and suffixes of the words mentioned:

Prefixes:
iz- = completion suffix (in this context, anyway)
vy- = another completion suffix (in many other contexts as well)
na- = onto (i.e. learning oneself onto the field of knowledge to be required, or something like that)
za- = onto (perhaps the idea of 'pulling oneself together and getting the job done?')

Stem:
-uk-

Infixes:
-iv-, -av- = turning perfective verbs into imperfective verbs

Suffixes:
-t' (sometimes preceded by a vowel) = infinitive ending
-sja = reflexive ending (similar to Czech -se)


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## bibax

Holger2014 said:


> Czech seems to be easier in that respect than Russian. Would you say: whenever you add "-se" to verbs based on the "-uk-" stem you get the idea of "teaching oneself = to learn" whereas whenever you omit it you get the idea of "to teach"?


Yes, also you can always replace the reflexive pronoun *se* by another personal pronoun in accusative (e.g. tě = thee/dich, ho = him, ji = her, nás = us, etc.). The meaning of the verb is then changed from _to learn_ to _to teach_:

Učím *se*. Já se učím. = I learn/I am learning.
Učím *tě*. Já tě učím. = I teach you (dich).
Učíš *mě*. Ty mě učíš. = You (thou/du) teach me (mich).
etc.

to learn - to teach:

učiti: učím se - učím tě (imperfective aspect);
naučiti: naučím se - naučím tě (perfective aspect);
vyučiti: vyučím se - vyučím tě (e.g. zedníkem) = to be apprenticed (as mason), erlernen;
zaučiti: zaučím se - zaučím tě = to get/give initial training, anlernen/einarbeiten (sich, neuen Kollegen);
doučiti: doučím se - doučím tě = to catch up on (in school), Versäumtes nachholen;


Holger2014 said:


> As for the difference between "věděti" and "znáti": I think its very similar to Polish and German as well: "wissen" and "kennen", whereas Russian uses znat' for both (just like English 'to know')
> - I don't know - Ich weiß es nicht = Já nevím (?) = but Russian: Ja ne znaju.
> - I know the problem = Ich kenne das Problem = Já znám (or znáju?) ten problém = Russian: Ja znaju ètot problem ètu problemu.


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## ger4

bibax said:


> Yes, you can always replace the reflexive pronoun *se* by another personal pronoun in accusative:
> 
> Učím *se*. Já se učím. = I learn/I am learning.
> Učím *tě*. Já tě učím. = I teach you (thee, dich).
> Učíš *mě*. Ty mě učíš. = You (thou, du) teach me (mich).
> etc.
> 
> to learn - to teach:
> 
> učiti: učím se - učím tě (imperfective aspect);
> naučiti: naučím se - naučím tě (perfective aspect);
> vyučiti: vyučím se - vyučím tě (e.g. zedníkem) = to be apprenticed (as mason), erlernen;
> zaučiti: zaučím se - zaučím tě = to get/give initial training, anlernen/einarbeiten (sich, neuen Kollegen);
> doučiti: doučím se - doučím tě = to catch up on (in school), Versäumtes nachholen;



That seems to be a very logical system.

As for the problem with (Russian) problema: I confused the genitive plural form with the nominative singular... But in Czech, it is masculine, isn't it?


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## bibax

Holger2014 said:


> As for the problem with (Russian) problema: I confused the genitive plural form _(= etich problem)_ with the nominative singular... But in Czech, it is masculine, isn't it?


OT: "problem" seems to be a strange word. It is masculine or feminine or neuter or without any gender (Hungarian) in various European languages. In Czech it is masculine, but it would have to be neuter: problema/problemata like drama/dramata.


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts:
> 
> (a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> As for Dutch:
> (a/ b) l*eren *
> (c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)
> 
> French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.



Another thought on the (a) (b) (c) distinction: 

"Learning" in the sense of definition (a) could probably described as some kind of knowledge transfer. What about "learning as defined in (b) ? Can situations teach you something? Can situations be 'teachers' transferring knowledge? In German and English they can, apparently: der Unfall hat mich gelehrt, vorsichtiger zu fahren = The accident has taught me to drive more carefully. 

Russian would probably use the verb naučit'sja čemu-nibud' na opyte (roughly: to teach oneself something on experience), so, in Russian it doesn't seem to be the situation teaching the 'sufferer' something, but rather the 'sufferer teaching him/herself something out of the situation... That said, this expression has an equivalent in German and English as well. Etwas aus (einer) Erfahrung lernen = to learn something out of experience.

How about Dutch and Czech, for example? And which of the two versions sounds more natural - the situation described as a teacher or the sufferer teaching him/herself something out of the situation?


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## ancalimon

Turkish

to learn = öğrenmek (from Proto-Turkic "ö" meaning "idea" or something even more primordial than an idea)

Unfortunately I'm not sure about the function of -re that comes after "öğ".   "-re, -ra" are usually suffixes which are related with directions. ("son: end" "sonra: after",  "dış: out" "dışarı: outer", "iç: in" "içeri : inner").

So öğre could mean something like "directing and idea"

-n usuallly means the action is effecting yourself. If we replace "-n" with a "-t" making it "öğretmek", it means "to teach" so "-t" (which is probably the verb "etmek" (which is an auxilary verb meaning "do" which was probably "es" in the past), making the verb "öğre etmek")) makes the action effect someone else through another medium (because of the -re suffix) (I guess this medium is also the one the action is aimed at).  (öğrenci: student  öğretmen: teacher)


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## ger4

ancalimon said:


> Turkish
> 
> to learn = öğrenmek (from Proto-Turkic "ö" meaning "idea" or something even more primordial than an idea)
> 
> Unfortunately I'm not sure about the function of -re that comes after "öğ".   "-re, -ra" are usually suffixes which are related with directions. ("son: end" "sonra: after",  "dış: out" "dışarı: outer", "iç: in" "içeri : inner").
> 
> So öğre could mean something like "directing and idea"
> 
> -n usuallly means the action is effecting yourself. If we replace "-n" with a "-t" making it "öğretmek", it means "to teach" so "-t" makes the action effect someone else through another medium (because of the -re suffix) (I guess this medium is also the one the action is aimed at).  (öğrenci: student  öğretmen: teacher)



If -n usually means the action is affecting yourself it might actually have a similar function as -sja in Russian and -se in Czech, except that in Turkish you seem to put the infinitive ending -mek at the end of the verb, while in Russian and Czech the infinitive ending comes before the added -sja or -se, respectively. 

Interesting to learn that the same -n appears in öğ-re-n-ci (student), so it seems to be a very consistent system. Very literally, öğ-re-n-ci would probably mean "idea-directing-at-oneself-person", wouldn't it? Someone being in the process of transferring knowledge towards him/herself...


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## ger4

"Pupil" in different languages:

Turkish: öğrenci (öğren=transferring ideas to oneself/learning + personal ending) 
German: Schüler (Schule=school + -er=personal suffix)
Russian: učeník (uč=learn + personal suffix) or škól'nik (škóla=school + personal ending)
Latvian: skolnieks (skola=school + personal ending)
Danish, Swedish: elev (French loanword)
French: élève, écolier (école=school + personal ending)
Polish: uczen' (ucz=learn)

Thus: the word for 'pupil' is derived from...
... "learning/knowledge transfer to oneself" in Turkish, Russian, Polish, ...
... "school" in Russian (alternatively), German, Latvian, French, ... 

(I'll try to expand this list)


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## ancalimon

Holger2014 said:


> If -n usually means the action is affecting yourself it might actually have a similar function as -sja in Russian and -se in Czech, except that in Turkish you seem to put the infinitive ending -mek at the end of the verb, while in Russian and Czech the infinitive ending comes before the added -sja or -se, respectively.
> 
> Interesting to learn that the same -n appears in öğ-re-n-ci (student), so it seems to be a very consistent system. Very literally, öğ-re-n-ci would probably mean "idea-directing-at-oneself-person", wouldn't it? Someone being in the process of transferring knowledge towards him/herself...



Yes. Öğrenci would mean "someone who is transferring idea to himself". Öğretmen would mean "someone who is making another one transfer idea to himself" or "someone who is transferring an idea to another one"


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## ger4

The Turkish structure might fit well into a scheme like this one:

(1) some basic idea (expressed by a word stem rather than a complete word)
(2) the transfer of the idea (expressed by a word stem rather than a complete word)
(3) directing the transfer of the idea towards someone else (infinitive verb form) = to teach
(4) the person directing the transfer of the idea towards someone else (noun) = the teacher
(5) directing the transfer of the idea towards oneself (infinitive verb form) = to learn
(6) the person directing the transfer of the idea towards him/herself (noun) = the learner (pupil, student)

I'll try to fit the Turkish structure into this scheme now:

(1) *öğ
(2) *öğre
(3) öğretmek
(4) öğretmen
(5) öğrenmek
(6) öğrenci

Hope I got it right . Of course I'm aware that positions (1) and (2) are probably occupied by word stems rather than complete words.

Now in Russian (just the basic forms without prefixes):

(1) *uk 
(2) *uč
(3) učit'
(4) učitel'
(5) učit'sja
(6) učenik

(Same stem: na-uk-a=science)

German:

(1) *lehr- (compare: Lehre=school of thought teaching etc) 
(2) *lehr-
(3) lehren
(4) Lehrer
(5) lernen
(6) Lernender, Schüler

(Same stem: Lehre=the teaching, school of thaught etc)


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## ger4

Estonian:

(1) *õp(p)
(2) *õp(p)
(3) õpetada
(4) õpetaja
(5) õppida
(6) õpilane

(Alternations of p/pp are part of the language system)

Latvian:

(1) *māk
(2) *māc
(3) mācīt
(4) skolotājs
(5) mācīties
(6) skolnieks


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## bibax

Pupil:

Hungarian: *diák *(alternatively *tan*uló, *tan*ítvány; tan _science_; tanít _to teach_, tanul _to learn_);
Czech: *žák *(specifically *uč*eň, *uč*edník);

Both diák and žák are loanwords from Old Greek: diákonos (διάκονος), "servant".


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## arielipi

Hebrew
A and b are למדתי lamadti learnt
C is הבנתי hevanti understood


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## apmoy70

Holger2014 said:


> "Pupil" in different languages:
> 
> Turkish: öğrenci (öğren=transferring ideas to oneself/learning + personal ending)
> German: Schüler (Schule=school + -er=personal suffix)
> Russian: učeník (uč=learn + personal suffix) or škól'nik (škóla=school + personal ending)
> Latvian: skolnieks (skola=school + personal ending)
> Danish, Swedish: elev (French loanword)
> French: élève, écolier (école=school + personal ending)
> Polish: uczen' (ucz=learn)
> 
> Thus: the word for 'pupil' is derived from...
> ... "learning/knowledge transfer to oneself" in Turkish, Russian, Polish, ...
> ... "school" in Russian (alternatively), German, Latvian, French, ...
> 
> (I'll try to expand this list)


Add Greek to your 1st list list:

*«Μαθητής/μαθήτρια»* [maθi'tis] (masc.), [ma'θitri.a] (fem.) < Classical nouns *«μαθητής» mătʰētḗs* (masc.), *«μαθητρίς» mătʰētrís* (fem.) --> _learner, pupil_ < Classical v. *«μανθάνω» măntʰánō* --> _to learn, get to know, experience_ (see my first post)


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## ger4

apmoy70 said:


> In all three cases the verb we use in Greek is:
> 
> *«Μαθαίνω»* [ma'θeno] < Classical v. *«μανθάνω» măntʰánō* --> _to learn, get to know, experience_ (PIE *mn̩-s-dʰh₁-, _placing (*dʰh₁-) one's mind (*mn̩-s)_, hence _wise_ cf Skt. मेधा (medhā), _wisdom, intelligence_; Av. mazdå, _spirit of wisdom_; Proto-Germanic *mundraz > Ger. munter; Proto-Slavic *mǫdrъ > OCS мѫдръ, _wise, sage_, Rus. мудрый, _wise_,  Bul. мъдър, BCS mudar/мудар, Cz. moudrý, Svk. múdry, Pol. mądry).
> 
> But, for (c) we can also use:
> 
> *«Πληροφορούμαι»* [plirofo'rume] --> _I'm being informed_, Modern Greek calque (1840) in order to render the Fr. renseigner; in Koine Greek the v. existed in its active form *«πληροφορέω/πληροφορῶ» plērŏpʰŏréō* (uncontracted)/*plērŏpʰŏrô* (contracted) --> _to fulfil, pay in full_ < Classical fem. noun *«πληροφορίᾱ» plērŏpʰŏríā* --> _fullness of assurance, certainty_ cf Christian Scripture (Paul's epistle Thessalonians I, 1:5=> ὅτι τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐγενήθη εἰς ὑμᾶς ἐν λόγῳ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐν δυνάμει καὶ ἐν Πνεύματι ῾Αγίῳ καὶ ἐν *πληροφορίᾳ πολλῇ*/For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in *much assurance*) < compound; Classical adj. *«πλήρης» plḗrēs* --> _full_ (PIE *pleh₁-, _to fill_ cf Skt. पिपर्ति (píparti), _to fill_; Lat. plērus, _most, almost all_) + ablaut form of Classical v. *«φέρω» pʰérō* --> _to bear, endure, carry, bring away, provide, reach, move along_ (PIE *bʰer-, _to bear, carry_ cf Skt. भार (bhāra), _payment, load, burden_; Proto-Slavic *bьrati, _to pick up, take_ > OCS бьрати, Rus. брать, Pol. brać).
> In Modern Greek the same word («πληροφορία» [plirofo'ri.a]) translates the Eng. information, Fr. renseignement.



The examples you provided made me wonder if I should add "wise" or "wisdom" to the second list, as Sanskrit medhā is obviously related to Slavic moudry/mudry/... as well as to 'mindful' in English (obviously not quite the same meaning, but a similar concept). 

From the Greek examples you mentioned I take it there must be a common root, may be something like *ma(n)th, related to Sanskrit medhā, that the word for "to learn" is based on. Is that correct? Do other words related to learning/teaching/teacher etc have the same root in Greek or are they derived from different roots (as in English, for instance)?


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## apmoy70

Holger2014 said:


> The examples you provided made me wonder if I should add "wise" or "wisdom" to the second list, as Sanskrit medhā is obviously related to Slavic moudry/mudry/... as well as to 'mindful' in English (obviously not quite the same meaning, but a similar concept).
> 
> From the Greek examples you mentioned I take it there must be a common root, may be something like *ma(n)th, related to Sanskrit medhā, that the word for "to learn" is based on. Is that correct?


 The Greek root is the e-grade *«*μενθ-» *mĕntʰ-* > lone survivor in the Classical language the fem. noun *«μενθήρη» mĕntʰḗrē* --> _care, heed, attention, concern_ (the e-grade was replaced later by a-grade and gave the stem *«*μαθ-» mătʰ-* whence *«μα(ν)-θ-άνω»*; interestingly its o-grade gave *«*μονθ-» *mŏntʰ-* > *m**ŏ**ntyă* > *m**ŏ**ntsă* (palatalization -ty- --> -ts-) > *mõtsă* (nasalization and compensatory lengthening of short vowel) > *mõssă* > *mõsă* (shortening -ss- --> -s-) > *mōsă* (denasalization, retention of long vowel): Ionic *«μῶσᾰ» môsă*, Doric/Classical *«μοῦσᾰ» moûsă*  --> _muse_).


Holger2014 said:


> Do other words related to learning/teaching/teacher etc have the same root in Greek or are they derived from different roots (as in English, for instance)?


Learning, being instructed, be a pupil etc are all related to *«μανθάνω»* (*«μάθησις» mắtʰēsīs*, *«μαθητείᾱ» mătʰēteíā*, *«μαθητεύω» mătʰēteúō* respectively).
The words related to teaching on the other hand, have the stem *«δᾱ-» dā-* which gives the stem compound *«διδα-» dida-* with a reduplication of the initial syllable of the verb stem in the present tense (by adding a syllable consisting of the root's initial consonant followed by -i-) > *«διδάσκαλος» dĭdắskālŏs* --> _teacher_, *«διδασκαλίᾱ» dĭdăskălíā* --> _teaching, lesson, education_, *«διδασκάλιᾰ» dĭdăskắlīă* --> _tuition fee_, *«διδάσκω» dĭdắskō* --> _to teach_ etc. The PIE root is *de(n)s-, _to teach_ cf Skt. adj. दस्र (dasra), _accomplishing wonderful deeds_.


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## ger4

By the way, I am aware that what I'm doing here isn't necessarily 'linguistically correct'... The point of these lists is just to find out how different languages describe the concepts of 'learning', 'teaching'...


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## ger4

I'll try to add Greek to the list, in a very simplyfied romanized form though:

(1) *da
(2) *dida
(3) didasko
(4) didaskalos
(5) manthano 
(6) (just a wild guess: manthanalos?)


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## ger4

arielipi said:


> Hebrew
> A and b are למדתי lamadti learnt
> C is הבנתי hevanti understood



Do the consonants l-m-d-t form the basis for words expressing the idea of learning? Are the words expressing the concepts of learning and teaching related to each other in Hebrew? It would be interesting as Hebrew, of course, is a completely different language from all the others we've had so far...


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## ThomasK

Holger2014 said:


> The Turkish structure might fit well into a scheme like this one:
> 
> (1) some basic idea (expressed by a word stem rather than a complete word)
> (2) the transfer of the idea (expressed by a word stem rather than a complete word)
> (3) directing the transfer of the idea towards someone else (infinitive verb form) = to teach
> (4) the person directing the transfer of the idea towards someone else (noun) = the teacher
> (5) directing the transfer of the idea towards oneself (infinitive verb form) = to learn
> (6) the person directing the transfer of the idea towards him/herself (noun) = the learner (pupil, student)


Dutch, as "opposed" to German: 
(1) *lehr- (compare: Lehre=school of thought teaching etc) --> *leer-*
 (2) *lehr- --> (*aan-)leren *(_onderwijzen_, in the education system)
(3) lehren --> id. (but I am not so sure about this distinction)
 (4) Lehrer --> *leraar** (even *leerkracht*, teaching power/craft* really*)
 (5) lernen --> *leren *
 (6) Lernender, Schuler --> *leerling *(student)

Are there any specific words now for life 'teaching' us ? 

*The _kracht_-word is a unisex word, and it has been extremely common for a few decades ; nothing to do with political correctness!  _(I have been trying to launch 'didactic process manager' or more recently 'didactic solutions facilitator' in order to gain more prestige for our 'trade' but most students only get scared or worried... __;-) ;-), _


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## bazq

Holger2014 said:


> Do the consonants l-m-d-t form the basis for words expressing the idea of learning? Are the words expressing the concepts of learning and teaching related to each other in Hebrew? It would be interesting as Hebrew, of course, is a completely different language from all the others we've had so far...



Yes, you can find a description of the equivalnts of "to learn" and "to teach" in Hebrew here: 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1623374&page=2


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> Dutch, as "opposed" to German:
> (1) *lehr- (compare: Lehre=school of thought teaching etc) --> *leer-*
> (2) *lehr- --> (*aan-)leren *(_onderwijzen_, in the education system)
> (3) lehren --> id. (but I am not so sure about this distinction)
> (4) Lehrer --> *leraar** (even *leerkracht*, teaching power/craft* really*)
> (5) lernen --> *leren *
> (6) Lernender, Schuler --> *leerling *(student)
> 
> Are there any specific words now for life 'teaching' us ?
> 
> *The _kracht_-word is a unisex word, and it has been extremely common for a few decades ; nothing to do with political correctness!  _(I have been trying to launch 'didactic process manager' or more recently 'didactic solutions facilitator' in order to gain more prestige for our 'trade' but most students only get scared or worried... __;-) ;-), _



LIFE TEACHES US many things we don't actually want to learn = DAS LEBEN LEHRT UNS vieles, was wir eigentlich nicht lernen wollen - Similar structure in English and German. Similar problem worldwide...

As for the difference between (2) and (3): I think (2) (= transferring knowledge in unspecified direction) only makes sense in Turkish, as in Turkish they seem to have a kind of  'generic' stem for both learning and teaching, so (2) might actually be a blank space with regards to other languages.  

teacher = leerkracht = Lehrkraft (plural: Lehrkräfte) is used in official contexts only, in everyday life we say Lehrer (masc.) / Lehrerin (fem.)

There are two collective terms (if that's the correct expression) for teacher(s):
- Lehrerkollektiv ("teachers' collective" in eastern parts of Germany, not used as frequently  now as before)
- Lehrkörper ("teaching body") in western parts of Germany. "Der Lehrkörper" is only used in official contexts. Sounds like an army of teachers, somehow...


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## arielipi

Holger2014 said:


> Do the consonants l-m-d-t form the basis for words expressing the idea of learning? Are the words expressing the concepts of learning and teaching related to each other in Hebrew? It would be interesting as Hebrew, of course, is a completely different language from all the others we've had so far...


A small correction bazq didn't add, it's lmd not lmdt.


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## ger4

arielipi said:


> A small correction bazq didn't add, it's lmd not lmdt.



Thank you. I've just noticed there is more comprehensive information on the Hebrew word stems on the "To teach, ondervijzen..." thread, #28


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## apmoy70

Holger2014 said:


> I'll try to add Greek to the list, in a very simplyfied romanized form though:
> 
> (1) *da
> (2) *dida
> (3) didasko
> (4) didaskalos
> (5) manthano
> (6) (just a wild guess: manthanalos?)


I wish Greek was that predictable and regular 
(5) manthano 
(6) mathitis (masc.), mathitria (fem.) (or in the ancient language matʰētēs (masc.), matʰētris (fem.))


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts:
> 
> (a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> As for Dutch:
> (a/ b) l*eren *
> (c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)
> 
> French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.



To learn in Tagalog is Matuto(h) but in your given samples, this is replaced by other verb form in #3 1.)natututo ako ng duts.2.) Natuto akong umiwas sa ganyang gawain.3.)Napag alaman ko na di natuloy ang pinag usapang pulong.


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## ger4

So far, my impression is there are five main types of relations between the verbs 'to teach' and 'to learn' (only with regards to word formation). We have gathered so much information here, I thought I'd just make a very basic list of the main verbs that have been collected here so far, focussing on word formation this time. 

I am trying to include all the verbs that have been mentioned here so far, so most languages will appear at least twice.   

(still editing) (diacritics later...) 

(1) both verbs based on the same root, each of them adding a different suffix ('to transfer knowledge towards someone else' vs 'to transfer knowledge towards oneself')
     Turkish: ögretmen/ögrenmen 

(2) 'to teach' is the basic form, 'to learn' is formed by adding a reflexive suffix ('to teach' vs 'to teach oneself')
     Latvian: macit/macities
     Russian: ucit/ucitsja 
     Polish: uczyc/uczyc sie
     Czech: uciti/uciti se   
     Swedish: lära/lära sig

(3) 'to learn' is the basic form, 'to teach' is the causative form of 'to learn' ('to make someone learn' vs 'to learn') (might later be corrected)
     Urdu: sikhaanaa/siikhnaa (sikhaanaa is the causative form of siikhnaa)
     Finnish: opettaa/
     Estonian: opetada/oppida (causative?)
     German: belehren/lernen (causative?)
     Dutch: aanleren/leren (causative?)

(4) 'to teach' and 'to learn' are not based on the same stem, or they are based on a common stem that has been alternated in the past 
     English: teach/learn
     German: lehren/lernen
     German: unterrichten/lernen
     Dutch: onderwijzen/leren
     Danish: undervise/laere
     Swedish: undervisa/lära
     Greek: didasko/manthano
     German: beibringen/erlernen
     Russian: prepodavat'/ucit'

(5) 'to teach' and 'to learn' have the same form
     Dutch: leren/leren
     French: apprendre/apprendre

(?) This is the category of verbs I didn't manage to put in (1) to (5):
     Catalan: ensenyar/?
     Castellano: ensenar/?
     Hungarian: oktat/?
     Tagalog: ituro/?
     French: enseigner/?
     Russian: obucat'/? 

-----
I was trying to "juxtapose" each of the "teaching" verbs with its respective "learning verb" equivalent, but it doesn't always seem to work that way. Language doesn't always seem to have that kind of symmetry...


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## ThomasK

How do you integrate the (c) meaning into your system, Holger? I am not so sure it can really be considered learning even. The whole thing is: how does on define the very concept of L and T ?


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> How do you integrate the (c) meaning into your system, Holger? I am not so sure it can really be considered learning even. The whole thing is: how does on define the very concept of L and T ?



That's a good question... Actually, I thought in #42 I should just gather some of the information collected in the previous posts focusing on word formation only, for the time being. Of course it's not very likely that anyone would ever manage to categorize all those different concepts of pointing/teaching/learning etc in a such a neat little list...


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## ThomasK

I do appreciate your effort because in that way we have some kind of survey or summary.


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> The exchanges on teaching make me wonder about how you translate '*to* *learn'*. I can see three meanings or contexts:
> 
> (a) I am learning Dutch (I am teaching myself or I am being taught)
> (b) I have learnt not to do that (from experience)
> (c) I have learnt  that the meeting has been cancelled (heard)
> 
> As for Dutch:
> (a/ b) l*eren *
> (c) *vernemen *(ver-nemen, almost lit. French _ap-prendre_)
> 
> French: (a/b/c) *apprendre *- as far as I know.



As this thread is about 'learning' with all its varieties in meaning rather than 'teaching vs. learning' I 'll try to make another list of the verbs we have seen in this thread so far, this time concentrating on the verbs that could be listed in the a/b/c scheme above. 

By the way, I wonder if (a) could be divided into the following 'subcategories': a1: 'to dabble in something', a2: 'to learn something', a3: 'to master something'; but I think different languages have different dividing lines in between a1, a2 and a3. In German, it's hard to express 'to dabble/to be dabbling in sth', for instance... Likewise, the distinction between 'to learn' and 'to master' is different in German (the verb 'meistern' might have been an equivalent in the past, but it's hardly ever used nowadays). Russian seems to have its own 'subcategories' in (a) as well...


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## ger4

This is a suggestion for a  more open list with many more 'categories of learning' easily to be added. Many verbs will probably match several of these 'categories', so they might appear twice. This list shouldn't aim at perfection, of course, it might just give an overall impression of how different languages express the concepts of 'learning'.  

Category 0: Anything that doesn't really seem to fit into the categories below
...
Category a1: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to search', 'to look for', 'to research', to 'investigate'
...
Category a2: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to find', 'to find out about', 'to come to a conclusion of what you have learnt so far'
...
Category a3: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to take up' knowledge, 'to transfer information towards oneself' 
...
Category a4: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to fathom', 'to comprehend', 'to see the overall picture'
...
Category a5: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to dabble in/with something', 'to be quite curious about a subject'
...
Category a5: 'Learning' expressing a basic idea of 'to collect knowledge', 'to read' <Mandarin Chinese and Urdu seem to make distinctions here
...

Category b: 'to learn from experience' 
...
Subcategories?
...
Category c: 'to learn expressing a basic idea of 'To have been informed' , as in "I have learnt that the meeting has been cancelled"
...
Subcategories?
...

It would be interesting to find out about even more languages in this context, like Swahili, Chinese, Inuit, Maori, Hausa, Korean, ....


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## ger4

I tried to 'categorize' the verbs that have been mentioned in this thread so far but of course the most accurate information on how the respective verb forms are used can be found in the posts. This is just a little summary of the verbs that have been mentioned so far.    

The only categories I'll use here are the ones originally introduced in #1:

(a) to teach oneself or to be taught
(b) to learn from experience
(c) to learn (to be informed) about something  

#1 Dutch - leren - a & b
#1 Dutch - vernemen - c
#1 French - apprendre - a & b & c 
#2 Greek - măntʰánō - a & b & c
#2 Greek - pliroforúme - c
#3 German - lernen - a & b
#3 German - erlernen - a
#3 German - erfahren - c
#6 Hungarian - tanul - a
#7 Russian - učit' - a 
#8 Russian - učit'sja/naučit'sja - a
#8 Russian - izučat'/izučit' - a
#8 Russian - zaučivat'/zaučit' - a
#8 Russian - učit'/vyučit' - a
#8 Russian - naučit'sja (čemu=something na_opyte=from_experience) - b
#8 Russian - uznavat'/uznat' - c
#14 Czech - učiti_se/ naučiti_se - a
#14 Czech - dozvěděti - c
#21 Turkish - öğrenmek - a
#25 Estonian - õppida - a
#25 Latvian - mācīties - a
#27 Hungaria - tanul - a
#28 Hebrew - lamadti (learnt) - a & b
#28 Hebrew - hevanti (understood) - c
#29 Greek - măntʰánō - a & b & c
#41 Tagalog - natuto - a & b
#41 Tagalog - napag - c

This one is mentioned in the thread called "To teach, onderwijzen":
#26 Urdu - siikhnaa - a & b
#26 Urdu - parhnaa - a (to learn by reading)

(still editing)

Suggestions, corrections and additions always welcome


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