# About - "Palatalization"



## iglesias

Hi,
      I am a new learner. I have a question about "palatalization" in Modern   Greek.
      I read a article named "The Details of Modern Greek Phonetics and Phonology" which talks about it.

      Example: [k]-->[c]
      κήπος: [c`ipos]         (= garden)
      Indeed, from the sound samples, I found the difference between [k] and [c]. I am sure that it is [c], not [k]. But it seems some people  didn't. From some other samples (in different website), I heard the sound more like [k] (not 100% sure).

      I am confused. "Palatalization" always occur? Or some people ignore it and just pronounce it   [k].

Could anyone talk about it  more clearly? Thanks.


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## modus.irrealis

Hi,

Apologies if I tell you something you already know, but since "palatalization" can mean many things, I just wanted to say that in this case, [c] represents a palatal stop and not a fricative, so it itself is a k-type sound, except that the tongue touches the roof of the mouth a lot further forward than it does with [k]. It's not the biggest difference in sound but it's noticeable once you become aware of it.

For when it occurs in standard Greek, basically, only [c] is possible before the vowels _ and [e], so κιμάς, και, κιλό all have [c] -- if the book said "always", it probably meant in this context. In front of consonants you can only have [k], so κρέας, κλαίω, and so on have [k]. In front of the other vowels you can have either, with [c] represented by putting ι in front of the vowel -- I couldn't think of two words whose only difference is this, but if you take words like άδικο and δίκιο, it's [aðiko] vs. [ðico], and here the difference between the two sounds is very distinct.

(Also, the same thing happens with the sounds represented by γκ, χ, and γ.)

Hope that makes sense._


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## anthodocheio

I think (I think. Tell me if I'm wrong) that "κ" in "κήπος" is pronunced as "k" in "kill" for example. Nothing special happens in Greek regarding "κ" I believe..


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## modus.irrealis

Although there is a difference between my pronunciation of the k in kill and the k in karma, the difference for me (it may be different for other English speakers) is much smaller than the difference in Greek, and my k in kill is closer to the κ in κάπως then the one in κήπος.

(In fact, when I imitate Greek immigrants here, one of the things I do is make my k's in words like kill like the κ in κήπος  -- although with "kill," the i and l sounds also have to be changed to Greek sounds as well.)


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## balgior

Hello all!



anthodocheio said:


> I think (I think. Tell me if I'm wrong) that "κ" in "κήπος" is pronunced as "k" in "kill" for example. Nothing special happens in Greek regarding "κ" I believe..



anthodocheio: Try to say slowly and clearly "καλός" and then "κήπος". It should sound something like "καλός" and "κ(χ)ήπος". Well, sort of...
It is difficult for us to realize when we talk, but you can see the difference when an English native tries to say such words in Greek. We would say "κέρινος" as "κ(χι)έρινος" but I' m sure you can imagine an American saying something like "kerinos" (with the 'e' sounding like something between 'ε' and 'α')... I hope I didn't confuse you!


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## wonderment

There is no difference in the way I pronounce the k in kill and karma when I speak naturally. Palatalization of [k] [γ] [x] and [g] is a phonetic phenomenon characteristic of modern Greek, not English. 

Just to clarify for iglesias (as it won't hurt to restate the same thing differently):

Palatalization:  [k] --> [c]  before _ or [e]
                     where  = η, ι, υ, ει, οι, υι
                     and [e] = ε, αι

No palatalization of [k] before [a] [o]  or another consonant._


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## anthodocheio

balgior said:


> Hello all!
> 
> 
> 
> anthodocheio: Try to say slowly and clearly "καλός" and then "κήπος". It should sound something like "καλός" and "κ(χ)ήπος". Well, sort of...
> It is difficult for us to realize when we talk, but you can see the difference when an English native tries to say such words in Greek. We would say "κέρινος" as "κ(χι)έρινος" but I' m sure you can imagine an American saying something like "kerinos" (with the 'e' sounding like something between 'ε' and 'α')... I hope I didn't confuse you!


 
Hi balgior!

Well.. I suppose I pronounce English with my very Greek accent! (What's new? που λέμε...)


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## peri+kleos

> anthodocheio: Try to say slowly and clearly "καλός" and then "κήπος". It should sound something like "καλός" and "κ(χ)ήπος". Well, sort of...
> It is difficult for us to realize when we talk, but you can see the difference when an English native tries to say such words in Greek. We would say "κέρινος" as "κ(χι)έρινος" but I' m sure you can imagine an American saying something like "kerinos" (with the 'e' sounding like something between 'ε' and 'α')... I hope I didn't confuse you!



Not only that but *I* think that the pronunciation of the letter k in *E*nglish is different from the *G*reek kappa. The *G*reek kappa is softer than the *E*nglish k so its not the same at all.


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## Angelos

Do you know what a "phoneme" is in linguistics?

If yes, then the answer to your original question is very simple. [k] and [c] are *different phonemes* in Greek, with an almost complementary distribution: both can occur before back vowels (viz. [a], [o] and ), but only [k] can occur before consonants or at the end of a word and only [c] can occur before front vowels (viz. [e] and _). Minimal pairs, though rare, do exist: κιάλι ['cali] (=spyglass) vs. κάλι ['kali] (=potassium), κιόλας ['colas] (=already) vs. κόλλας ['kolas] (=of glue), κιουπιού [cu'pçu] (=of a jar) vs. κουπιού [ku'pçu] (=of an oar). Likewise, [g]/[ɟ], [x]/[ç], [γ]/[j] are *different phonemes* with exactly the same almost complementary distribution, and minimal pairs exist in all cases (γκιώνης/γκώνεις, χιόνι/χώνει, γιόμα/γόμμα).

If you don't know what a phoneme is, some more explanation is in order. Broadly speaking, a phoneme is a range of sounds that are perceived by the speaker as being "the same" or "roughly the same", because which one is actually produced depends on the phonetic context. The stock example in English is the difference between the p-sound of "pit" and that of "spit". Manifestly, in "pit" the initial consonant is accompanied by a strong puff, representable phonetically almost as /phit/, which is lacking in "spit". Any native English speaker will easily notice the difference *if it is pointed out to him,* but (unless trained in linguistics) is most unlikely to have noticed it by himself, because *it has no semantic importance* (i.e. it does not affect the meaning), being automatic ['p' is always aspirated in English in the beginning of a stressed syllable, but never in other positions, so no two words can be distinguished merely because the [p]/[ph] distinction). We say that there is only one voiceless labial stop consonant phoneme in English, viz. 'p', which is realized as unaspirated /p/ or as aspirated /ph/ depending on the circumstances. - On the other hand, the difference between the vowel sounds of 'pit' and 'Pete' (or 'lip' and 'leap', or 'bin' and 'bean', etc.) is extremely important in English, since it is the only thing that distinguishes those words, and yet some Greek learners of the language are completely deaf to it, while others, though capable of perceiving and reproducing it, consider it a bothersome subtlety. We say that it is *phonemic *in English, but not in Greek.
The situation is somewhat similar in the case of the velar/palatal distinction. Even in English, there is a clear difference between the initial consonant of 'cart' or 'caught' on one hand, and that of 'cat' or 'kit' on the other; but this difference, being entirely conditioned by the phonetic context, i.e. by the vowel that follows, is not normally perceived by the native speaker. To a Greek, on the other hand, it is blatantly obvious, precisely because *in Greek* the same difference is semantically significant (cf. the "minimal pairs" given above).
The notion of the phoneme helps explain other seeming peculiarities, too. For instance, even though the *sound *[w] can occur in Greek, it is perceived not as the distinct phoneme it is in English, but merely as a non-syllabic . Thus, Greeks say την Ουάσιγκτον, maintaining the final ν in the article, while in English one says 'a word' rather than *'an word'.

Concerning palatalization in Greek, we should also mention that [l] and [n] also have palatal variants, which can only occur before vowels, and that in many, but not all, Greeks' pronunciation [l] and [n] are always palatalized before . In my idiolect, λιμάνι and καπετάνιοι don't quite rhyme, but in most people's pronunciation they do.

Finally, a word of warning. Palatalization is indicated in writing by a *silent iota,* as in the examples given above, but a iota between a palatalizable consonant and another vowel *can also be a full vowel.* Thus, σπάνιος is *never *pronounced [spaños], but always [spanios], even though the 'i' in it may be non-syllabic, just as the English word 'canyon' is *not* pronounced like its Spanish etymon 'cañón'. This (along with the double pronunciation of γγ) is the only case where pronunciation cannot be inferred from spelling with 100% certainty in Greek. There is even at least one minimal pair: δόλιος is a term of commiseration ('poor, wretched') if pronounced with a palatalized λ and a silent ι, but means 'malicious' if pronounced with a full syllabic iota!_


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