# need be



## yakor

Какая часть речи "need"? И почему? Я думаю-это модальный глагол. Перевод- нужно будет.
If need be, I will come.


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## Sincerity

Это устойчивое выражение:

If needs be, I will come
If need be, I will come

Обе формы используются.  Это сокращенная версия - "If there is a need,"
Хотя я никогда не задумался над тем, о какой части речи идет речь здесь, думаю, что это все-таки существительное

И перевод

Если необходимо, я приду

Дословно можно тоже сказать

Если в этом есть необходимость.....

Надеюсь, что ответил на ваши вопросы


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## yakor

Sincerity said:


> Надеюсь, что ответил на ваши вопросы


Not at all..  The translation "Если нужно будет" is more brief and correct.
I think it is a modal verb, nevetherless. The fact that it could be said as "If needs be" "If need be" says for that. (no article "a" before "need")
(If it needs to be. If it need be) It is the short of "If it need be done" "If it needs to be done". It is inpersonal clause.
The same way the adverb  "maybe" came from the impersonal clause "it may be".


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## Sobakus

yakor said:


> Not at all..  The translation "Если нужно будет" is more brief and correct.
> I think it is a modal verb, nevetherless. The fact that it could be said as "If needs be" "If need be" says for that. (no article "a" before "need")
> (If it needs to be. If it need be) It is the short of "If it need be done" "If it needs to be done". It is inpersonal clause.
> The same way the adverb  "maybe" came from the impersonal clause "it may be".



Если нужно будет is not more correct because it's informal, while "if need be" is formal. Your theory doesn't explain the variant with "need" and the bare infinitive, since only a couple of verbs are followed by bare infinitive and "to need" isn't one of them. The lack of an article is quite common in stable expressions. Although the variant with "needs" shows that native speakers reanalyse it in the same way as yourself.


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## igusarov

yakor said:


> I think it is a modal verb, nevetherless. The fact that it could be said as "If needs be" "If need be" says for that. (no article "a" before "need")


Существует ещё очень похожее устойчивое выражение с артиклем: "should the need arise". Здесь need - точно существительное: "буде возникнет _необходимость_".


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## yakor

Sobakus said:


> Если нужно будет is not more correct because it's informal, while "if need be" is formal.


But I tell about "if need be". I saw that "need" was followed by the bare infitive in statements. "need" is a modal verb in these cases. И переводиться как "если нужно..", а не "при нужде" или "если нужда будет". Артикль "а" как раз часто используется в устойчивых выражениях.


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## yakor

igusarov said:


> "буде возникнет _необходимость_".


Да, тут не поспоришь. Артикль сам за себя говорит.


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## Sobakus

yakor said:


> But I tell _I'm talking_ about "if need be".


As am I.


> I saw that "need" was followed by the bare infitive in statements. "need" is a modal verb in these cases.


Don't hesitate to provide some examples.


> И переводиться как "если нужно..", а не "при нужде" или "если нужда будет".


Вы всерьёз считаете, что части речи в тексте перевода должны соответствовать частям речи в тексте оригинала?


> Артикль "а" как раз часто используется в устойчивых выражениях.


Артикль "а" не имеет ни малейшего отношения к устойчивым выражениям.


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## yakor

Sobakus said:


> Артикль "а" не имеет ни малейшего отношения к устойчивым выражениям.



Don't hesitate to provide some examples


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## Sobakus

yakor said:


> Don't hesitate to provide some examples


Утверждение отсутствия не требует доказательств; чтобы доказать мою неправоту, связь между неопределённым артиклем и устойчивыми выражениями придётся показывать вам. А вообще желание поспорить вкупе с напористой хамоватостью, по всей видимости, продолжают оставаться вашими определяющими чертами, поэтому дискуссий с вами я впредь вести не буду. Моя ошибка.


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## Ben Jamin

yakor said:


> But I tell about "if need be". I saw that "need" was followed by the *bare infitive *in statements. "need" is a modal verb in these cases. И переводиться как "если нужно..", а не "при нужде" или "если нужда будет". Артикль "а" как раз часто используется в устойчивых выражениях.



“Be” is not a bare infinitive, and “need” is not a modal verb. “Be” is a mostly obsolete subjunctive form of “to be”.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I agree. "Be" is a subjunctive here: "should there be need".


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## yakor

LilianaB said:


> Yes, I agree. "Be" is a subjunctive here: "should there be need".


I can't understand the present subjunctive mood. It sounds strange to me. It seems that "could", "would" or "should" are absent there.
If need be = If need should be? How did "the present subjunctive" arise? By transposing words and displacinig these verbs?


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## Ben Jamin

yakor said:


> I can't understand the present subjunctive mood. It sounds strange to me. It seems that "could", "would" or "should" are absent there.
> If need be = If need should be? How did "the present subjunctive" arise? By transposing words and displacinig these verbs?


 The genuine subjunctive mood in English does not involve the modal verbs like should, would, etc, but as it was said before, the genuine subjunctive mood is almost extinct in English. Instead the genuine subjunctive mood English, and other languages too, use subjunctive constructions. English uses often should + conditional, while the Slavic languages use constructions of the type "chto by + past tense".
You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood


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## yakor

Ben Jamin said:


> The genuine subjunctive mood in English does not involve the modal verbs like should, would, etc, but as it was said before, the genuine subjunctive mood is almost extinct in English.


Yes,but it doesn't help me understand  present subjunctive arising. (I have no questions about the past subjunctive, we use it too)
The sentense,"She demanded he resign" seems strange to me. It seems to me that some verb is absent between "he" and "resign".


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## Ben Jamin

yakor said:


> Yes,but it doesn't help me understand  present subjunctive arising. (I have no questions about the past subjunctive, we use it too)
> The sentense,"She demanded he resign" seems strange to me. It seems to me that some verb is absent between "he" and "resign".


No one speaks like this nowadays, there are only certain verbs, like *be* that can be used in the subjunctive mood in contemporary English. The mood is only used in certain fossilized expressions like "if need be".
Have you read the article in Wikipedia, by the way?


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## LilianaB

Past subjunctive -- ""if it were to be needed".  "Should this have ever been needed". They are used mostly in legal language, so don't worry about them too much.


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