# Urdu/Persian: command of a language/عبور



## panjabigator

Could one use " عبور" to express "command of a language"

زبان پر كتنا عبورھے


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Could one use " عبور" to express "command of a language"
> 
> زبان پر كتنا عبورھے




This is exactly the way we express the idea of command / proficiency in a language.


----------



## panjabigator

How about with an izafa?  Sound good to you?

Thank you for your confirmation.


----------



## Faylasoof

You mean like _kitnaa_ _3uboor-e-zabaan HaaSil hai_ . Like this? 

Sounds less idomatic to my ears. Well, come to think of it this does sound rather poetic!

Normally we don't say it like this. More like the way you put it or as:

_Use zabaan par kitnaa 3uboor HaaSil hai_


----------



## panjabigator

Thank you Faylasoof.


----------



## Faylasoof

You are welcome PG! 

_ab janaab mai.n apne taxt-e-xwaab par nashii.n hone waalaa hoo.n to meri Taraf se shab baxayr!_


----------



## panjabigator

Shab bakhair Faylasoof sahib.  Insha Allah WF par dobaaraa sohbat ho gī.


----------



## BP.

Faylasoof said:


> You mean like _kitnaa_ _3uboor-e-zabaan HaaSil hai_ . Like this?
> _..._


I know gator forced this sentence on you, but I think _3ubuur ba zabaan_ would be the correct/better way to say it.


----------



## Faylasoof

I'm sorry to disagree with you again! Nobody forced anything on me. If I felt that, I would make it plain. 

_zabaan par 3uboor hona_ _

OR 

zabaan par 3uboor HaaSil hona_ 

Both perfectly correct! We use both expressions all the time.  

3uboor ba zabaan?  Though grammatically it is perfectly OK, it sounds quite stilted and is _not_ _idiomatic._


----------



## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I know gator forced this sentence on you, but I think _3ubuur ba zabaan_ would be the correct/better way to say it.



I held a gun up to his head!


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I held a gun up to his head!



تو اس كا مطلب ہے كہ آپ كو بندوق كے استعمال پر بھی مكمل عبور حاصل ہے 

_to iskaa maTlab hai keh aap ko bandooq ke isti3maal par bhii mukammal 3uboor HaaSil hai! _


----------



## panjabigator

Faylasoof said:


> تو اس كا مطلب ہے كہ آپ كو بندوق كے استعمال پر بھی مكمل عبور حاصل ہے
> 
> _to iskaa maTlab hai keh aap ko bandooq ke isti3maal par bhii mukammal 3uboor HaaSil hai! _



Didacticism within jokes! Ustaad ho to aisa hi!


----------



## Faylasoof

Thank you for your appreciation!

_aap kii zarrah nawaazii! dost ho to aisa hi! _


----------



## omlick

panjabigator said:


> Could one use " عبور" to express "command of a language"
> 
> زبان پر كتنا عبورھے


 
उबूर  is not in the McGregor dictionary for some reason, and only Platts lists the meaning of mastery to it, the other dictionaries I have just say it means "to cross."


----------



## BP.

'to cross/traverse' for example a street/an obstacle, is a second meaning of _3ubuur_. Context is the discriminant for the two.


----------



## Faylasoof

Omlick, the meaning in Platts is correct! That is how we normally use this word. 

Could you tell us which are these other Urdu dictionaries you are referring to? Can we have their names?


_3uboor honaa_ عُبور ہونا = To have mastery 


اُس کو کئی زبانوں پر عُبور ہے
_us ko kai zabaano.n par 3uboor hai_

He has mastered many languages



*Arabic Root: ع۔ب۔ر*

*3abara عَبَرَ = to cross*
*3uboor عُبور = crossing (in Arabic).*

*But when we wish to say <to cross>, as in:*
*to cross a road, then we usually say سڑک پار کرنا saRak paar karnaa. *


----------



## omlick

Faylasoof said:


> Omlick, the meaning in Platts is correct! That is how we normally use this word.
> 
> Could you tell us which are these other Urdu dictionaries you are referring to? Can we have their names?
> 
> 
> _3uboor honaa_ عُبور ہونا = To have mastery
> 
> 
> اُس کو کئی زبانوں پر عُبور ہے
> _us ko kai zabaano.n par 3uboor hai_
> 
> He has mastered many languages
> 
> 
> 
> *Arabic Root: ع۔ب۔ر*
> 
> *3abara عَبَرَ = to cross*
> *3uboor عُبور = crossing (in Arabic).*
> 
> *But when we wish to say <to cross>, as in:*
> *to cross a road, then we usually say سڑک پار کرنا saRak paar karnaa. *


 
So that means paar karnaa is preferred over ubuur karnaa in everyday speech, for going across things, but ubuur karnaa can still be used in that respect as well?

The dictionary that I am referring to is the Romanized Urdu"Star" Dictionary which is a more simple dictionary that is organized by romanized urdu entries and thus is not very comprehensive. My other Dictionary actually does list  the meaning of mastery after it says "crossing a river"  with "full knowldege of  a subject."  This dictionary is an Urdu dictionary that also gives the definitions in Hindi as well.  It is called the Advanced Urdu Hindi English Dictionary by Ashok Prakashan Publishers out of Delhi.  

I asked a native Hindi speaker from UP if she was familiar with the word "ubuur" and she wasn't.  So I guess it is a mainly Urdu speakers alone who would use it, although I did get some google hits on it with उबूर,  and it is equivalent to the Hindi अधिकार adhikaar in the sense of the meaning "mastery.


----------



## BP.

_paar karnaa_ is more often used in the sense of crossing e.g. _daryaa paar karna_, though _3ubuur_ is perfectly fine here. _3ubuur _is more used in terms of traversing something long or high e.g. _jungle/koh 3ubuur karnaa_.  For me they're synonymous, _paar karnaa _just a little more everyday.


----------



## Faylasoof

omlick said:


> So that means paar karnaa is preferred over ubuur karnaa in everyday speech, for going across things, but ubuur karnaa can still be used in that respect as well?
> 
> The dictionary that I am referring to is the Romanized Urdu"Star" Dictionary which is a more simple dictionary that is organized by romanized urdu entries and thus is not very comprehensive. My other Dictionary actually does list  the meaning of mastery after it says "crossing a river"  with "full knowldege of  a subject."  This dictionary is an Urdu dictionary that also gives the definitions in Hindi as well.  It is called the Advanced Urdu Hindi English Dictionary by Ashok Prakashan Publishers out of Delhi.
> 
> I asked a native Hindi speaker from UP if she was familiar with the word "ubuur" and she wasn't.  So I guess it is a mainly Urdu speakers alone who would use it, although I did get some google hits on it with उबूर,  and it is equivalent to the Hindi अधिकार adhikaar in the sense of the meaning "mastery.



As BP's has already explained this well, I needn't say anything more.

I have niether of these!

Yes, it seems to have become mainly an Urdu word although the fact that Platts mentions it means that at one time it may have been more familiar to Hindiphones too, esp. of the 19th century. In fact, I'm fairly sure that Lakhnavis at the time, regardless of their religio-cultural background would have known it if not actually used the word.


----------



## panjabigator

> In fact, I'm fairly sure that Lakhnavis at the time, regardless of their religio-cultural background would have known it if not actually used the word.


I have come to the same conclusion FLS.  The older generation Lakhnavis I met all seemed to have a very cultivated vocabulary, irrespective of religion.  Just goes to show what the nation state can do to "distort" language by equating it with some imagined identity...


----------



## panjabigator

Reviving this thread to introduce Persian to the equation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems Persian uses عبور کردن for 'to cross' and not for 'command of language.'  Just thought I'd add this note.


----------



## BP.

_3buur karnaa_ is indeed used for the act of traversal. It is in fact _3buur HaaSil hona_ which means having a firm grasp of something. Think 'through and through' for the second usage (and _3buur_=[get] through). It is _HaaSil_ that changes the meaning e.g. _3buur HaaSil karnaa_ would describe the process of getting conversant with something.

I don't know, but maybe you could describe the second sense by _3buur daashtan_ or _3buur yaaftan_.


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Reviving this thread to introduce Persian to the equation.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems Persian uses عبور کردن for 'to cross' and not for 'command of language.'  Just thought I'd add this note.


 This is true! It is really only in Urdu that we use عبور this way to mean _command of language_, as we discussed earlier.



Faylasoof said:


> ....
> _3uboor honaa_ عُبور ہونا = To have mastery
> اُس کو کئی زبانوں  پر عُبور ہے
> _us ko kai zabaano.n par 3uboor  hae_
> 
> He has mastered many languages


 The Persian usage is the same as in the original Arabic:



Faylasoof said:


> *Arabic Root: ع۔ب۔ر*
> 
> *3abara عَبَرَ = to cross*
> *3uboor عُبور = crossing (in Arabic).*
> 
> *But when we wish to say <to  cross>, as in:*
> *to cross a road, then we usually say سڑک پار کرنا saRak paar karnaa. *


  We prefer the Indic version of *پار کرنا*  meaning <to cross, cross over>, although عبور can be and is used for traversing, as BP mentions above.


----------



## Koozagar

Think of language as an ocean of learning. If you start learning a language at the initial point A, the shore, (denoting an initial competence level of zero) and learn it all the way to the point Z, the shore on the other side ( denoting the maximum competence level), then you have traversed the language or traveled across it and are now familiar with each and every intimate detail of the route. You have accomplished the marvelous feat of "crossing the ocean", of "3booring". Hence you have achieved "3boor". Hence "3boor haasil karna".


----------



## Todd The Bod

Faylasoof said:


> You are welcome PG!
> 
> _ab janaab mai.n apne taxt-e-xwaab par nashii.n hone waalaa hoo.n to meri Taraf se shab baxayr!_


 


panjabigator said:


> Shab bakhair Faylasoof sahib. Insha Allah WF par dobaaraa sohbat ho gī.


 
Bande ke lie koi yn dono sentence ke tarjume karega, kya Hazraat?

*Moderator edit: Topic continued here.*


----------



## Todd The Bod

Thank you, Koozagar and Fayla.


----------



## Faylasoof

PG, just to add to what we discussed earlier, you can read more on the various Persian uses of عبور , here.

 Some commonality with Urdu of course with the usage of _crossing-over_ etc:  

 مرور کردن . , راه را پیمودن ,   گذشتن , درگذشتن 
 

 But not used in the sense of mastering. This seems peculiar to Urdu!


----------



## panjabigator

Thanks FLS.  مرور کردن is used to mean "to review" in Persian, I believe.


----------



## Faylasoof

Well, to be honest I didn't go through all the meanings of مرور but here you have most, and it does mention گذشتن و رفتن. There is evenعبور و مرور  =  رفت و آمد؛ آمد و شد


----------

