# 25



## Encolpius

Hello dear friends, not long ago, in feudalism, I think, one type of punishment was beating the vassal twenty-five times, maybe, I am not sure. The more important thing is in some languages there is an idiom "do get twenty-five" which means to get twenty five blows. Now it is not performed any longer but the idiom for punishing, beating someone still exists. I am not sure but I think it does not exist in Polish, or maybe? Czechs e.g. say: "dostać dwadzieścia pięć"....do you use a similar idiom in Polish? Thanks.


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## jasio

There are some idioms or fixed phrases in Polish originating from feudalism or tortures, but I have never heard the one you referred to. However I can't exclude that  something similar may be used in areas influenced by Czech, such as in a Silesian dialect.


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## dreamlike

I don't think I've ever heard it, or anything of that nature. It's not familiar to those I've asked about it, either.


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## Agiii

I don't think I've ever heard any expression with a number in the context you mention.

But the first thing that springs to my mind when it comes to expressions related to punishing someone and feudalism is 
*brać (dostać, dostawać, oberwać, obrywać, wziąć, zbierać, zebrać) cięgi *http://www.bryk.pl/słowniki/słownik_związków_frazeologicznych/68102-cięgi.html

(I'm not 100% sure it goes back to the times of feudalism but it sounds so).


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## Ben Jamin

Public punishing by flogging, birching, whipping, and so on was in common use in historical times, up to the first half of XIX century, but it was never applied to nobles, so beating a vassal was not practiced. There are plenty of expressions related to corporal punishment in Polish, buy I can not recall any idiomatic expression that uses a fixed number of blows.


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## Encolpius

Thank you, again, very interesting.....


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## dreamlike

Agiii said:


> But the first thing that springs to my mind when it comes to expressions related to punishing someone and feudalism is
> *brać (dostać, dostawać, oberwać, obrywać, wziąć, zbierać, zebrać) cięgi *


How does that relate to feudalism? Just asking, no hidden agenda. I do tend to use the expression in question and even have raised a few eyebrows by doing so, but I didn't know that it comes from this period.


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> Public punishing by flogging, birching, whipping, and so on was in common use in historical times, up to the first half of XIX century, but it was never applied to nobles, so beating a vassal was not practiced. There are plenty of expressions related to corporal punishment in Polish, buy I can not recall any idiomatic expression that uses a fixed number of blows.



"Pal go sześć"?  
But it's not related to beating (at least - not directly), and its idiomatic meaning is exactly opposite.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> "Pal go sześć"?
> But it's not related to beating (at least - not directly), and its idiomatic meaning is exactly opposite.



And what is the meaning then?


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## str1ct_poland

pal go sześć means resignation. 
e.g:
A: Powinienes go dzis odwiedzic. [You should visit him today].
B: Pal go szesc. Nie mam czasu. ['Pal go szesc' . I don't have time today]


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## Ben Jamin

str1ct_poland said:


> pal go sześć means resignation.
> e.g:
> A: Powinienes go dzis odwiedzic. [You should visit him today].
> B: Pal go szesc. Nie mam czasu. ['Pal go szesc' . I don't have time today]


Well, this is nothing that can be called directly opposite to be beaten.
Anyway, I know this expression mostly from books, it was not used in my circles. I think it was already old fashioned, but I always understood it as an expression equivalent to "it's not important" or "I don't care", rather than resignation.


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## str1ct_poland

Hmm,
Jan Miodek is polish linguist and he says:
""a niech tam, mniejsza o to, wszystko jedno". - Przyjmuje się, że były to słowa skierowane do kata, oprawcy, który miał skazańca przypalać żelazem. Kiedy słyszał takie polecenie, przypalał ofiarę podaną liczbę razy. Nikt nie wytrzymywał więcej niż dwu-, trzykrotnego przypalania, dlatego okrzyk pal go sześć mógł oznaczać, że skazańcem nie trzeba się już przejmować."


"nevermind, all the same" - It is assumed that these words were told to the executioner, who had condemned scorch iron. When he heard the command to stick the sacrifice given number of times. Nobody withstand more than double, triple scorch him. Therefore shout: six could scorch means that we does not have to worry about the convict already.


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## marco_2

I think that *pal diabli *was used with the same or very similar meaning - how to explain this expression then?


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## str1ct_poland

Ciężko mi to po angielsku będzie określić, ale jest pewna delikatna różnica, zresztą widzę, że i tak nativ'owi odpisuję 
- Pal to sześć - używamy gdy coś stopniujemy. Coś jest mniej ważne od czegoś innego.
np. Ukradli mi portfel. Pal sześć pieniądze, ale dokumenty były ważne.

- Pal diabli - podobne, ale dodatkowo negatywny stosunek emocjonalny (nieco lekceważący).
np. Pal go diabli. Dam sobie sam radę.


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## Ben Jamin

Teoria profesora Miodka jest fascynująca, ale trudno mi w nią uwierzyć.  Poniosła go fantazja, albo przeczytał coś co napisał ktoś co zmyślił tę historię. O wiele bardziej wiarygodne jest tłumaczenie, że "sześć" w tym wypadku to eufemizm na diabła, a wyrażenie powstało od "pal go diabli".


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## Agiii

dreamlike said:


> How does that relate to feudalism? Just asking, no hidden agenda. I do tend to use the expression in question and even have raised a few eyebrows by doing so, but I didn't know that it comes from this period.



Feudalism is not a period.

But from the way the author asked the question I conclude he was searching for expressions related to medieval/early modern corporal punishments. "Cięgi" means flogging. Not sure when the expression was born - I don't have time to search for it now and I don't think that's important either, but do look for it if you're interested - but it's probable to go back a few centuries since the word has not been used out of this expression for a while and flogging was not precisely the most popular 20th century punishment either.

BTW: "Feudalism", as indicated by the existence of "pańszczyzna", survived on the polish territories till the mid-19th century.


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## Ben Jamin

Agiii said:


> Feudalism is not a period.
> 
> But from the way the author asked the question I conclude he was searching for expressions related to medieval/early modern corporal punishments. "Cięgi" means flogging. Not sure when the expression was born - I don't have time to search for it now and I don't think that's important either, but do look for it if you're interested - but it's probable to go back a few centuries since the word has not been used out of this expression for a while and flogging was not precisely the most popular 20th century punishment either.
> 
> BTW: "Feudalism", as indicated by the existence of "pańszczyzna", survived on the polish territories till the mid-19th century.



Feudalism functions in Poland as a very diffuse term, and there is actually no consensus abou it. 
The "Western" historians claim that the genuine feudalism never existed in Poland. The genuine feudalism is based on the "senior - vassal relation", and was widely used in the countries in the sphere of the Carolingian Empire, plus England, Spain, Portugal and Denmark. The system of serfdom, existing in Poland until 1865 has been called "feudal" by historians mostly as a derogatory term. 

So, yes, the end of the "feudal" system period, at least in Poland can be very precisely defined.


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