# Pas



## panjabigator

Bon dia a tothom,

Ara us pregunta sobre el mot "pas" i entenc que fa servir per a dir "no" amb més èmfasis.  No trobo un equivalent castellà els diccionaris que tinc.  Em podeu dir què trieu quan parleu a castellà i voleu expressar-ho de la mateixa manera?

Moltes gràcies
PG


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## Antpax

Hola Panja,

Com norma general pas, jo diria que no hi (pas ). En castellà fem servir altra paraula o expresió, depenent del context, com per exèmple: nunca, jamás, en la vida, ni en broma, etc.

A veure que diuen els altres.

Salut.

Ant


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## Cecilio

panjabigator said:


> Bon dia a tothom,
> 
> Ara us pregunto sobre el mot "pas" i entenc que es fa servir per a dir "no" amb més èmfasi.  No trobo un equivalent castellà als diccionaris que tinc.  Em podeu dir què trieu quan parleu en castellà i voleu expressar-ho de la mateixa manera?
> 
> Moltes gràcies
> PG



Hola, Panja. Jo diria que l'ús de la paraula "pas" per a la negació no està molt estés en la llengua quotidiana. A València no s'utilitza mai i a Catalunya tinc la impressió que s'utilitza només en determinades àrees, a no ser que el parlant vulga donar un cert 'estil' a la seua parla, fent-la més 'culta' o 'literària'.

Per tant, la llengua catalana té per sí mateixa moltes maneres alternatives d'expressar aquest èmfasi, algunes de les quals tenen el seu equivalent en castellà. Per exemple:

"No ho entenc pas" / "No ho entenc en absolut"--> "No lo entiendo en absoluto".


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## RIU

Hola, 

Com a exclamació en solitari, no pas gaire, en canvi en una construcció prou que es fa servir.


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## Tige

Jo estic d'acord amb Cecilio. De fet a mi només em surt dir-ho de manera natural en algunes comparacions:"M'agrada més aquest que no pas l'altre"...
Salutacions a tothom i sort per Vic, Panja...


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## TraductoraPobleSec

En castellà una bona traducció (segons el context, és clar) podria ser "de ninguna manera" o "en absoluto".

Jo sempre he fet servir el *pas* i trobo que és una partícula d'allò més útil.

Ja ens ho confirmarà la moderadora Belén, però penso que no forma part de la parla de les illes.


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## chics

Jo estic amb la Tradu que *pas* sí es fa servir a Catalunya, no en totes les frases negatives que es diuen, clar, per que no sempre es requereix intensificar, però força sovint.

Sobretot en la frase "No ho sé pas" .

Per cert, sabeu d'on ve?
"Locucions com _*no caminar pas* _(literalment ‘no caminar ni una passa’) van fer que _*pas* _prengués el valor d'un reforç de la negació, primer en verbs de moviment, i després en tota mena de verbs" Font.


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## josepV

Si, es la forma de fer les oracions negatives. 
El francés ho fa sempre, l'espanyol l'ha perduda completament. 
D'alguna manera, per fer les interrogatives hi afegim un interrogant i per fer les negatives cal emprar pas.


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## Lumia

L'ús del *pas* apareix especialment quan es vol negar alguna cosa que es donava per certa.

Crec recordar que al llibre d'estil d'_El 9 Nou_ hi havia un apartat dedicat precisament a l'ús d'aquesta partícula (que a la zona de Vic és molt habitual  ) i que al llibre de català per a estrangers de Josep Tió (publicat per EUMO, editorial vigatana) s'explicava aquest ús, però no tinc davant aquests llibres i no puc copiar-ho.

Copio aquí el que el SALC (Servei d'Autoformació en Llengua Catalana) diu sobre l'ús del pas:

"-No pas. En català disposem de la partícula pas, que afegeix a les frases negatives un matís subjectiu. Fem servir pas per a:

      -reforçar la negació en frases comparatives:
       Es millor que t'amaguis que no pas que et trobi aquí.

      -negar una suposició implícita:
       No esperis aquí l'autobús; no s'hi atura pas.

      -expressar una prohibició amenaçadora:
       No ho facis pas! No veus que et pots tallar?

      -indicar una prohibició parcial:
       Hi era tothom. No pas en Joan."


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## panjabigator

Gràcies a tots vosaltres per la informació, especialment a tu Cecilio per corregir els meus erros!


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## vince

Wow I thought this was a uniquely French phenomenom, so French that the word "pas" as led to "ne" (no) becoming superfluous in everyday speech.

So I guess it was also used in Catalan in limited contexts. Which probably means that it exists/existed in Occitan as well (?).

Does Catalan have the equivalent of "ne ... point" or other "no .... <insert word> " that negate sentences without giving it an extra meaning (like nunca, jamas, nada, ninguno do in Spanish)?

(Sorry I don't speak Catalan)


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## panjabigator

This thread might be of some help, Vince:  Occitan: Pas

I'm not too sure what you mean by "ne ... point" but Catalan does have all the words you list.
Nunca- mai
Jamas-mai
Nada -res
Ninguno- cap/gens de

I have heard _pas_ in Catalan so far more often than I expected.


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## Ayoup

Vince,

as you already know the basic negation in French is formed with "ne... pas", with the "ne" being optional in spoken French. The negative form in occitan is different. Formerly it was formed with "non" and was quite similar to other romance languages. For exemple, Spanish <No sé> = Old Occitan <Non sai>. However, it evolved to replace "non" entirely with "pas", the later coming after the verb, just like in French. However, the nuance is that "non" was replaced in a very consistent fashion. For example, while Fr <Je ne sais plus> becomes Spoken Fr <Je sais plus>, leaving "plus" as the only negative word in that structure, Old Oc <Non sai mai> became Oc <Sabi *pas mai*>, retaining two negative words.
I know something similar happened to North Catalan, with for example "No... res" becoming "Pas res", but I don't have much information about that.

Now, for more thorough comparison (I'd welcome corrections):

NE... PAS — Je ne sais pas
English: Not — I don't know
Spanish: No — No sé
*Catalan: No — No sé
Occitan: Pas — Sabi pas
Old occitan: Non — Non sai*
Spoken French: Pas — Je sais pas

NE... PAS DU TOUT — Je ne sais pas du tout
English: Not... at all — I don't know at all
Spanish: No... en absoluto — No sé en absoluto
*Catalan: No... pas — No sé pas
Occitan: Non... pas — Non sabi pas*
Spoken French: Pas du tout — Je sais pas du tout

NE... RIEN — Je n'ai rien 
English: Not... anything — I don't have anything
Spanish: No... nada — No tengo nada
*Catalan: No... res — No tinc res
Occitan: Pas res — Ai pas res*
Spoken French: Rien — J'ai rien

NE... PERSONNE — Je ne connais personne 
English: Not... anybody — I don't know anybody
Spanish: No... nadie — No conozco a nadie
*Catalan: No... ningú — No conec ningú
Occitan: Pas degun — Coneissi pas degun *
Spoken French: Personne — Je connais personne

NE... AUCUN — Je n'ai aucun droit 
English: Not... any — I don't have any right
Spanish: No... ningún — No tengo ningún derecho
*Catalan: No... cap — No tinc cap dret
Occitan: Pas cap — Ai pas cap de dreit*
Spoken French: Aucun — J'ai aucun droit

NE... GUERE — Je n'ai guère de place 
English: Not much — I don't have much space
Spanish: No... mucho — No tengo mucho lugar (But "mucho" hasn't a negative value in itself, unlike "gaire" and "guère")
*Catalan: No... gaire — No tinc gaire lloc
Occitan: Pas gaire — Ai pas gaire de plaça*
Spoken French: Guère — J'ai guère de place (you wouldn't come across this construction very often though. And at any rate, people using it would mean "not any space at all" rather than "not much space")

NE... PLUS — Je ne sais plus 
English: Not... anymore — I don't know anymore
Spanish: Ya no — Ya no sé
*Catalan: Ja no — Ja no sé
Occitan: Pas mai — Sabi pas mai*
Spoken French: Plus — Je sais plus

NE... JAMAIS — Ne fais jamais ça ! 
English: Not... ever — Don't ever do that!
Spanish: No... nunca — ¡No hagas nunca eso!
*Catalan: No... mai — No facis mai això!
Occitan: Pas jamai — Fa pas jamai aquò !*
Spoken French: Jamais — Fais jamais ça !

NE... QUE — Je n'ai qu'une chaussure 
English: Only — I have only one shoe
Spanish: No... más que — No tengo más que un zapato
*Catalan: No... més que — No tinc més que una sabata
Occitan: Pas que — Ai pas qu'una cauçadura*
Spoken French: Que — J'ai qu'une chaussure

NE... NI... NI — Je n'ai ni chaud ni froid 
English: Neither... nor — I'm neither hot nor cold
Spanish: No... ni... ni — No tengo ni calor ni frío
*Catalan: No... ni... ni — No tinc ni calor ni fred
Occitan: Pas... ni — Ai pas caud ni freg*
Spoken French: Ni... ni — J'ai ni chaud ni froid


Could anyone add the Italian equivalents?


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## Joannes

Ayoup said:


> Not... anymore
> *Catalan: Ja no*


Don't you say *no ... més*? Or at least both maybe?


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## Ayoup

Joannes said:


> Don't you say *no ... més*? Or at least both maybe?



I think you're right. I think I even saw both combined: "ja no... més", but perhaps the later means something slightly different?


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## xupxup

Només afegir dues coses:
En català, en un parlar molt coloquial i en alguns dialectes, és possible afegir un pas a algunes d'aquestes negacions, com ara "no conec pas ningú..." o "no tinc pas res..."

D'altra banda l'exemple "No tinc més que una sabata" em resulta tan artificial que em sembla impossible de dir. En català diríem "*Només* tinc una sabata" i em penso que en castellà deu passar el mateix. Només se m'acuden frases amb no...que de relatiu "No vull que fumis d'amagat"

I encara, pel que fa a "ne...plus" jo diria que tan pot ser _"Il ne veut plus venir avec moi"_ (Ja no vol venir amb mi) com _"Il ne pleura plus_" (ja no plourà més) o "Il ne pleura plus jamais" (No plourà mai més)


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## Heiwajin

Posats a sonar artificial, algunes de les estructures que dónes em sonen coixes sense complement ni pronom. Així "tal qual" no les utilitzaria mai, a no ser que fessis servir pronoms com ara: 

No ho sé
No ho sé pas - (tot i que_ I don't know at all, _en el meu parlar natural ho traduiria més aviat com *no en tinc ni idea*)
Ja no ho sé
No ho facis mai (més) això!
No tinc ni fred ni calor (sé que et canvio l'ordre, però es que em sona molt més natural així)

Què hi dieu els entesos?


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## ryba

Wow, Ayoup, nice comparative analysis! Thanks!



Heiwajin said:


> Què hi dieu els entesos?


No sóc pas un entès, però tinc entès que l'_ho_ en _No ho sé_ i l'_o_ en _O_ _sabi pas_ tendeix a perdre's en un llenguatge castellanitzat o afrancesat, respectivament. En teoría, en castellà també s'hauría de dir _No lo sé,_ que és més tradicional i propi d'un llenguatge polit, però ja sabem com parla la gent.



Ayoup said:


> I know something similar happened to North Catalan, with for example "No... res" becoming "Pas res", but I don't have much information about that.


Yes, the negation in Northern Catalan works just like that.

They even have _pas pus_ (_pus_ meant 'more' in Medieval Catalan, so _pas pus_ is 'anymore'), just like Occitans do:

«_Era pas bonic, el meu país?
Olor de tractor calent, de terra regirada.
Temporals que amenaçaven
i se cuitar cap el casot.
Com tot canvia, Déu nos guard,
no hi ha pas pus res com abans._ » ('nothing is the same anymore')

[song _País bonic_, album _Ah! Perpinyà_, music by Blues de Picolat, lyrics either by Joan-Lluís Lluís, Aleix Renyé or by Carles from the band (all three wrote the lyrics to the songs off this album), I couldn't find the exact info]

Many Northern Catalan writers use «no...pas» to make the negation normative (the Institut d'Estudis Catalans doesn't recommend negations formed with _pas_ only).

I wonder if in the real speech of the Catalans from Catalunya Nord _no_ has the same function as the one of _non_ in Occitan Ayoup mentioned:



Ayoup said:


> NE... PAS DU TOUT — Je ne sais pas du tout
> English: Not... at all — I don't know at all
> Spanish: No... en absoluto — No sé en absoluto
> *Catalan: No... pas — No ho sé pas
> Occitan: Non... pas — Non (o) sabi pas*
> Spoken French: Pas du tout — Je sais pas du tout



This would mean that in negations, whereas _pas_ in Northern Catalan has the same function as _no_ in the rest of the territory Catalan is spoken, _no_ has in Northern Catalonia the emphatic function of the normative (General Catalan) _pas_:

Northern Catalan: *Ho sabi pas.*
General Catalan: *No ho sé.

* Northern Catalan: *No ho sabi pas.*
General Catalan: *No ho sé pas.*

I'm dreaming of having someone from Northern Catalonia here to confirm it or refute it.



Ayoup said:


> NE... JAMAIS — Ne fais jamais ça !
> English: Not... ever — Don't ever do that!
> Spanish: No... nunca — ¡No hagas nunca eso!
> *Catalan: No... mai — No facis mai això!
> Occitan: Pas jamai — Fa Fagas pas jamai aquò ! *(subjonctive mode in negative imperative, unlike in French)
> Spoken French: Jamais — Fais jamais ça !



Best regards!


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## gvergara

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> En castellà una bona traducció (segons el context, és clar) podria ser "de ninguna manera" o "en absoluto".
> 
> Jo sempre he fet servir el *pas* i trobo que és una partícula d'allò més útil.
> 
> Ja ens ho confirmarà la moderadora Belén, però penso que no forma part de la parla de les illes.


Si pas es una paraula emfatitzadora, no seria una mica redundant dir _... el viatge no havia estat *pas *inútil *del tot*_.


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## paparreta

El _pas_ és viu a les zones on ningú, res o enlloc no són estrictament negatives.

¿Lo sabe alguien más? = Ho sap ningú més?
¿Quieres algo? = Vols res?
¿Está en algún sitio? = És enlloc?

Aleshores, quan fem les negacions generalment cal reforçar-les amb el _pas_.


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## ryba

ryba said:


> (...)
> 
> I wonder if in the real speech of the Catalans from Catalunya Nord _no_ has the same function as the one of _non_ in Occitan Ayoup mentioned:
> 
> (...)
> 
> This would mean that in negations, whereas _pas_ in Northern Catalan has the same function as _no_ in the rest of the territory Catalan is spoken, _no_ has in Northern Catalonia the emphatic function of the normative (General Catalan) _pas_:
> 
> Northern Catalan: *Ho sabi pas.*
> General Catalan: *No ho sé.
> 
> * Northern Catalan: *No ho sabi pas.*
> General Catalan: *No ho sé pas.*



Que algú m'ho podria confirmar, si us plau?


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## violadaprile

Hello everyone! 

I would add something interesting (on my opinion)

We have:
_je ne sais pas_ on french

and we have:
_'so *minga'*_ or '_el so *minga'*_ (milanese) (dialect?) = pronunciation '_su minga'_ o '_el su minga'_ = alternative whit '_so *no'*_ pronunciation '_su no'_
_'l so *mia'*_ (veneziano)

i like very much the similarity with "una mica" and i am almost sure their roots are the same


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## Angelo di fuoco

Ayoup said:


> Could anyone add the Italian equivalents?



Here you are:

NE... PAS — Je ne sais pas
English: Not — I don't know
Spanish: No — No sé
*Catalan: No — No sé
Occitan: Pas — Sabi pas
Old occitan: Non — Non sai*
Spoken French: Pas — Je sais pas
Italian: Non (lo) so

NE... PAS DU TOUT — Je ne sais pas du tout
English: Not... at all — I don't know at all
Spanish: No... en absoluto — No sé en absoluto
*Catalan: No... pas — No sé pas
Occitan: Non... pas — Non sabi pas*
Spoken French: Pas du tout — Je sais pas du tout
Italian: per niente / per nulla (rarer) / del tutto - non lo so per niente / per nulla / del tutto
-> but "per niente"/ "per nulla" and "del tutto" are not always interchangeable, and "del tutto" in some contexts (more often than not) means "completely" / "perfectly" - so it's NOT synonymous with French "pas du tout"

NE... RIEN — Je n'ai rien 
English: Not... anything — I don't have anything
Spanish: No... nada — No tengo nada
*Catalan: No... res — No tinc res
Occitan: Pas res — Ai pas res*
Spoken French: Rien — J'ai rien
Italian: non... niente/ nulla - Non ho niente / nulla 
-> again, niente & nulla are not always interchangeable, despite usually being synonymous. "Niente" is used more often than "nulla".

NE... PERSONNE — Je ne connais personne 
English: Not... anybody — I don't know anybody
Spanish: No... nadie — No conozco a nadie
*Catalan: No... ningú — No conec ningú
Occitan: Pas degun — Coneissi pas degun *
Spoken French: Personne — Je connais personne
Italian: Non... nessuno - Non conosco nessuno (older Italian: niuno)

NE... AUCUN — Je n'ai aucun droit 
English: Not... any — I don't have any right
Spanish: No... ningún — No tengo ningún derecho
*Catalan: No... cap — No tinc cap dret
Occitan: Pas cap — Ai pas cap de dreit*
Spoken French: Aucun — J'ai aucun droit
Italian: Non... nessun(o) or, in older Italian, niun(o) before the noun / alcun(o) after the noun - Non ho nessun diritto / Non ho diritto alcuno. 
-> Spanish functions the same way. And it should be mentioned that, while ningún, algún, nessun(o), niun(o), alcun(o) can vary in gender, cap in this meaning is invariable.

NE... GUERE — Je n'ai guère de place 
English: Not much — I don't have much space
Spanish: No... mucho — No tengo mucho lugar (But "mucho" hasn't a negative value in itself, unlike "gaire" and "guère")
*Catalan: No... gaire — No tinc gaire lloc
Occitan: Pas gaire — Ai pas gaire de plaça*
Spoken French: Guère — J'ai guère de place (you wouldn't come across this construction very often though. And at any rate, people using it would mean "not any space at all" rather than "not much space")
Italian: Non... molto - Non ho molto spazio. 
-> Same observation as for Spanish. Older Italian (Dante) knew "guari", but 
1) it wouldn't function with complements or precisations, unlike "gaire" & "guère".
2) it's so obsolete that most speakers don't even know of its existence.

NE... PLUS — Je ne sais plus 
English: Not... anymore — I don't know anymore
Spanish: Ya no — Ya no sé
*Catalan: Ja no — Ja no sé
Occitan: Pas mai — Sabi pas mai*
Spoken French: Plus — Je sais plus
Italian: Non... più - Non so più

NE... JAMAIS — Ne fais jamais ça ! 
English: Not... ever — Don't ever do that!
Spanish: No... nunca / jamás — ¡No hagas nunca eso! ¡No hagás eso jamás! ¡No lo hagas nunca / jamas! 
*Catalan: No... mai — No facis mai això!
Occitan: Pas jamai — Fa pas jamai aquò !*
Spoken French: Jamais — Fais jamais ça !
Italian: Non... mai - Non farlo mai! / Non lo far mai!

NE... QUE — Je n'ai qu'une chaussure 
English: Only — I have only one shoe
Spanish: No... más que — No tengo más que un zapato
-> as already stated, should be: "Tengo sólo un zapato"
*Catalan: No... més que — No tinc més que una sabata
*-> as already stated, should be: Només tinc una sabata*
Occitan: Pas que — Ai pas qu'una cauçadura*
Spoken French: Que — J'ai qu'une chaussure
Italian: soltanto / non... che - Ho soltanto una scarpa / Non ho che una scarpa (sola)

NE... NI... NI — Je n'ai ni chaud ni froid 
English: Neither... nor — I'm neither hot nor cold
Spanish: No... ni... ni — No tengo ni calor ni frío
*Catalan: No... ni... ni — No tinc ni calor ni fred
Occitan: Pas... ni — Ai pas caud ni freg*
Spoken French: Ni... ni — J'ai ni chaud ni froid
Italian: Non... (né...) né - Non ho (né) caldo né freddo


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## violadaprile

Thank you for the very exemplary table.
Actually I was speaking about idioms/dialects of some north italian regions, which have a similar form that catalá. Particularly, near Milan and Venise. Near Turin they say "pas" as French.

I say "idioms/dialect" because, like catalan, all italian "dialects" are idioms became directly from latin, like "vulgar idioms" born a lot of time before italian speak. They don't come from italian. So we really can't name them as "dialects".

Italian language is something decided among some cultural people, about 1300 b.c. They stated that the best language for italian poetry was Toscano (means the vulgar-not latin language of Florence, cause of it is a central place and this language was more or less understood by everyone who praticed lecterary art). This vulgar idiom (Toscano) passed very hardly into popular use, or didn't pass at all, till 1920, with fascism, when primari school became obligated and "dialects" forbidden. And people speaking dialect became considered "low level" people.

Thanks for your considerable examples about italian language.
But I am following a school of català and as first thing they touch us has been North-West Sardinia speaks català. I though that could make a more free vew about local languages. And the parallelism seemed very interesting to me.
See you.
Viola
Italiana
Milanes



PS Your italian examples are correct at all.

Just some little note.

_NE... PAS — Je ne sais pas .....
Italian: Non (lo) so_
Milanese (antico e moderno): *So no* (pronounce 'su nò'), *so minga* (pr. 'su minga') or also " 'l so no" ( -'l is shorted pronominal form)
Veneziano: "*No sò*", "*Sò mia*". Normalmente rafforzato dal pronome "Sò mia, mi!"

*Mica* still exists as a popular locution in the Milan's area, said from people who translate the (actual) dialect into italian. Today this word is considered a very regional locution.


_NE... PAS DU TOUT — Je ne sais pas du tout .....
Italian: per niente / per nulla (rarer) / del tutto - non lo so per niente / per nulla / del tutto
__-> but "per niente"/ "per nulla" and "del tutto" are not always interchangeable, and "del tutto" in some contexts (more often than not) means "completely" / "perfectly" - so it's NOT synonymous with French "pas du tout"_

= "del tutto" con verbo è forma positiva, non negativa: "sono del tutto sicuro"
con la negazione indica una negazione parziale: "non sono del tutto sicuro" (ho il dubbio)
= "nulla" is a centre Italy form or a very elegant form, not used in common contexts
= "niente" is more used, but depends of context
In this case the right expression is (without any dubt): "*Non* lo so *affatto*" "*Non* lo penso *affatto*"


_NE... PERSONNE — Je ne connais personne ....
__Italian: Non... nessuno - Non conosco nessuno (older Italian: niuno)_
"niuno" is an old old form, nowaday used (rarely) only near Florence, and perceived as a bit ridicolous in other contexts


_NE... AUCUN — Je n'ai aucun droit ...
Italian: Non... nessun(o) or, in older Italian, niun(o) before the noun / alcun(o) after the noun - Non ho nessun diritto / Non ho diritto alcuno._

same observation about "niuno"
"Non ho nessun diritto", nowaday, is considered as doppia-negazione, often used in spoken language, but less in writing.
"Non ho alcun diritto" or "Non ho diritto alcuno" (more strong) are considered more elegant forms.


(sorry for my poor english )


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