# all Slavic: inflection of personal names



## Gavril

Hello,

How does each of the Slavic languages handle the inflection of personal names?

I.e.,

1) Is it considered obligatory to use case endings with a name, even if the name is not Slavic? (For example, _John Smith_ > (genitive) _John*a* Smith*a*_)

2) Is the last name (and the middle names, if there are any) always inflected along with the first name?

In Slovene, my understanding is that the answer to both questions is "yes" when it is a man's name, but with women's names, only the first name is generally inflected, not the last name. Thus, a man's name like _Janez Mlakar_ becomes _Janez*a* Mlakar*ja*_ in the genitive, but a woman's name like _Ana Mlakar _in the genitive is _An*e* Mlakar_.

However, if a last name is itself a feminine noun (which seems relatively rare), then this noun will inflect along with the first name: _An*a* Kobilc*a*_ > _An*e* Kobilc*e*_.

Also, if only a woman's last name is mentioned in a sentence, not her first name, it is possible (perhaps normal?) to add the feminine possessive suffix -_ova_/-(_j_)_eva_ to the last name, which will then inflect normally: thus _Ana Mlakar_ would become _Mlakarjeva_ (genitive _Mlakarjev*e*_).


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## Милан

1. In Serbian we would write Džon*a* Smit*a* [foreign names are transcribed and of course it is obligatory to use case endings], in Croatian it would be Johna Smitha and so on.

2. The same as in Slovenian
nominative,  genitive
Petar Petrović, Petr*a* Petrović*a*
Maja Petrović, Maj*e* Petrović

but Isidor*a* Bjelic*a*, Isidor*e* Bjelic*e*

In Serbian it is normal to use Petrovićka or Petrovićeva [used in newspapers]. Ivanovićeva pobedila Šarapovu.


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## DarkChild

Милан said:


> In Serbian it is normal to use Petrovićka or Petrovićeva [used in newspapers]. Ivanovićeva pobedila Šarapovu.



Why? Just to indicate gender? Is that necessary? Then, why not introduce it in official naming. Also, ic is already the ending, so they put another one on top of that. Reminds me of Czech Sharapov*ova*.


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## ahvalj

I don't agree with the term "inflected": the zero ending in the masculine Nom. Sg. is part of the declension, the fact that it has no vowel is casual and is a result of phonetic developments (in eastern Northern Russian the vowel was present there until the second half of the 12th century and for western Northern Russian it can be found in a 17th century phrase-book), in other paradigms (e. g. in _o_-neutra and _a_-feminina) most Slavic languages show zero ending in the Gen. Pl. Thus, using Russian examples, _дом_/_dom_ (Nom. Sg.) is not the starting form to which endings are added when this word is used in the sentence (unlike e. g. in Turkic languages): it is just one of the declensional forms, like e. g. _стен/sten_ and _дел/del_ (Gen. Pl.).


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## Gavril

ahvalj said:


> Thus, using Russian examples, _дом_/_dom_ (Nom. Sg.) is not the starting form to which endings are added when this word is used in the sentence (unlike e. g. in Turkic languages)



I didn't claim that the nom. singular was the starting form (though it isn't obvious that it can't be the starting form in Slavic, nor that it is the starting form in the Turkic languages), but how is this essential to the original question? I'm just asking about the addition of inflectional endings to personal names.


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## ahvalj

Gavril said:


> I didn't claim that the nom. singular was the starting form (though it isn't obvious that it can't be the starting form in Slavic, nor that it is the starting form in the Turkic languages), but how is this essential to the original question? I'm just asking about the addition of inflectional endings to personal names.


Whereas I am commenting that the zero ending is an inflectional ending as any other, so that from the Slavic viewpoint both Džon Smit (Nom. Sg.) and Džona Smita (Gen./Acc. Sg.) are equally inflected, as are both Saša Obama (Nom. Sg.) and Saš Obam (Gen. Pl.). Only when a personal name remains indeclinable, we can speak of the lack of inflectional endings.


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## ahvalj

To clarify: my objection was about using the wrong term. A Russian speaker, when not sure, asks whether a certain name is declinable (эта фамилия склоняется?), and this is a grammatically correct question.


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## Gavril

ahvalj said:


> Whereas I am commenting that the zero ending is an inflectional ending as any other,



I don't agree (if I understand what you mean by this), but I'd prefer not to debate this question here. To restate the original question in your terms, I am asking about how visible/audible (i.e., non-zero) inflectional endings are added onto personal names in the various Slavic languages.


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## iezik

Gavril said:


> Also, if only a woman's last name is mentioned in a sentence, not her first name, it is possible (perhaps normal?) to add the feminine possessive suffix -_ova_/-(_j_)_eva_ to the last name, which will then inflect normally: thus _Ana Mlakar_ would become _Mlakarjeva_ (genitive _Mlakarjev*e*_).



Yes, from major media to colloquial level: Merklova, Mazejeva


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## bibax

Gavril said:


> Hello,
> 
> How does each of the Slavic languages handle the inflection of personal names?
> 
> I.e.,
> 
> 1) Is it considered obligatory to use case endings with a name, even if the name is not Slavic? (For example, _John Smith_ > (genitive) _John*a* Smith*a*_)
> 
> 2) Is the last name (and the middle names, if there are any) always inflected along with the first name?
> ...


1) yes

Sometimes it is easy, sometimes not. Especially the French names with their mute consonants are complicated (e.g. François Rabelais). The mute consonants are often pronounced in all cases except nominative: Truffaut /tryfo/ - Truffauta /tryfota/.

Barack Obama is easy (like Marek Halama, o-masculine, a-masculine) - Baracka Obamy (gen.);
Francis Scott Fitzgerald - Francise Scotta Fitzgeralda;

Women's names are "slightly" modified to allow declension, even in nominative (some people are annoyed about it), maybe except Hollywood stars' (Marilyn Monroe, Demi Moore, Julia Roberts, gen. Mooreové, Robertsové):

Angela Merkel -> Angela Merkelová (there is a "Czech" surname Merklová);
Clintonová, Albrightová, Thatcherová, Tarja Halonenová, etc.

Sabine Lisicki -> Sabina Lisická (Czech surnames Lišická and Lysická, Lišice and Lysice are Czech villages);
Monica Lewinsky -> Monika Lewinská (like Levínská, Levín is a Czech village = Lewin Kłodzki);
Nastassja Kinská (*Naksynski), Zoja Kosmoděmjanská, Naděžda Krupská, etc.

2) yes

Vladimir Vladimirovič Putin  - Vladimira Vladimiroviče Putina;
Mika Toimi Waltari - Miky Toimiho Waltariho;
Thomas (often Tomáš) Alva Edison - Thomase (Tomáše) Alvy Edisona;

Maybe except oriental names:

Čou En-laj - Čou En-laje;
Kim Čong-il - Kim Čong-ila, Kima Čong-ila is also possible (maybe correct?);


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## Gavril

bibax said:


> Maybe except oriental names:
> 
> Čou En-laj - Čou En-laje;
> Kim Čong-il - Kim Čong-ila, Kima Čong-ila is also possible (maybe correct?);



In these cases the "first" name (Čou, Kim) is actually the inherited surname. Would that be a reason to inflect both names (_Čou*a* En-laj*e*_) in Czech?


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## swintok

This topic was also touched on in these two threads:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=216147&highlight=surnames
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=238892


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## bibax

Gavril said:


> In these cases the "first" name (Čou, Kim) is actually the inherited surname.


I am affraid that nearly nobody knows it. Especially Kim looks like a first name (a very popular first name in Korea  ). You know Kim Novak, the Czech actress.


Gavril said:


> Would that be a reason to inflect both names (_Čou*a* En-laj*e*_) in Czech?


I think yes. The Czech TV uses the genitive form Si*a* Ťin-pching*a* (Si Ťin-pching, his father's name Si Čong-sün).


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## aprendiendo argento

What is funny is the fact that some female names like Doris and Iris are not declined.
Even funnier: Sara is declined but Sarah is not. 

N _Sarah Jessica Parker_
G _Sarah Jessice Parker_ or _Sarah Jessike Parker_
D _Sarah Jessici Parker_ or _Sarah Jessiki Parker_
etc.

In colloquial language they are inflected:
_Voljela je gledati Opru.
Kupila je novi album Maraje Carey._
etc.


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## francisgranada

In Slovak they are declined as well, but there is a peculiarity: if the surname derives from a noun, it's always declined as an animated noun (referring to living beings, mainly humans), even if according to the original meaning of the word it is inanimated. 

For example, let's suppose someone whose surname is _Dom _(=house): the dative would be _Jánovi Domovi _("to Ján Dom") even if the dative of _dom _(house) is _domu_. Does something similar exist in other Slavic languages, too?


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## M_L_P

iezik said:


> Yes, from major media to colloquial level: Merklova, Mazejeva



Some people may find this usage sexist.


There is an exception to the rule that man's last names are inflected, that is when they are used as _levi prilastek _instead of _desni prilastek _(the word order switches - the last name comes first): _Srečali so se z Mlakar Janezom. _The same is possible with the woman's last names (if they would otherwise be inflected): _Videli smo sliko Kobilica Ivane. _


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## marco_2

francisgranada said:


> In Slovak they are declined as well, but there is a peculiarity: if the surname derives from a noun, it's always declined as an animated noun (referring to living beings, mainly humans), even if according to the original meaning of the word it is inanimated.
> 
> For example, let's suppose someone whose surname is _Dom _(=house): the dative would be _Jánovi Domovi _("to Ján Dom") even if the dative of _dom _(house) is _domu_. Does something similar exist in other Slavic languages, too?



In Polish you can see the same phenomenon, e.g. when someone's surname is _Kot _(= cat), we say _Ukłoniłem się panu Kot*owi*, _though the dative of the noun _kot _is _kot*u*_. But in Polish neither the dative ending _-owi _nor the ending _-u _are reserved for animated or inanimated nouns and in practice when you study Polish, you should check every masculine noun in the dictionary.


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## Panceltic

M_L_P said:


> Some people may find this usage sexist.



Why would they? In my opinion, there is no other way to 1) use only the surname of the person and 2) make clear it's a woman. "_Juncker je povedal ..." _= OK, _"Merkel je povedala ..."_ = not OK! Maybe _"Gospa Merkel je povedala ...."_ Clumsy, I think.


M_L_P said:


> There is an exception to the rule that man's last names are inflected, that is when they are used as _levi prilastek _instead of _desni prilastek _(the word order switches - the last name comes first): _Srečali so se z Mlakar Janezom. _The same is possible with the woman's last names (if they would otherwise be inflected): _Videli smo sliko Kobilica Ivane. _



I was under the impression that this usage was not allowed in the standard language.


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## M_L_P

Panceltic said:


> Why would they? In my opinion, there is no other way to 1) use only the surname of the person and 2) make clear it's a woman. "_Juncker je povedal ..." _= OK, _"Merkel je povedala ..."_ = not OK! Maybe _"Gospa Merkel je povedala ...."_ Clumsy, I think.


  I've read articles about this issue, so I see no harm in pointing it out that the usage may sound offensive to some people. I didn't say it sounds offensive to everyone. As to why would someone find it sexist, I believe it is because the suffix implies ownership of a woman. You don't say _Junckerjev je povedal ..."_, so until a new pattern is agreed upon, the neutral way to inflect women's last names is the "clumsy" way by adding the first name or "gospa" or the like.


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