# som das palavras é/e



## boardslide315

Ola todos, tenho uma duda... há uma diferencia entre o som das palavras é/e? 
Também estava preguntando-me se sabem dum sitio que pode ajudar-me com minha pronúncia...acho que não o falo muito bem com un sotaque do espanhol 

Obrigado


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## olivinha

Oi, Boardslide.
Já deu uma olhadinha nos nossos recursos/resources?  
O


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## Outsider

Olá.

Tem aqui uma tabela de vogais com registo sonoro.

ê --> [e] na tabela
é --> símbolo parecido com [E], abaixo do anterior

Quanto ao "e" sem acento, a sua pronúncia varia conforme a palavra e o acento fonético. Veja o paradigma geral aqui.

Se der alguns exemplos concretos para explicar quais as dúvidas que tem, talvez possamos ajudá-lo melhor.


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## kurumin

boardslide315 said:


> entre o som das palavras é/e?



é [E] meaning ''is''
open E as in let, get, flesh
(although it's more open in some accents, like carioca, more like: flash)

e _ meaning ''and''

a) like y  in happy or
b) closed e [e] like in say
[Aurélio dictionary gives both these pronunciations]_


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## Alandria

Valendo lembrar que de São Paulo pra baixo a pronuncia das vogais é: a, bê, cê, dê, *ê*.

Do Rio pra cima é : a, bê, cê, dê, *é* (essa é a minha pronúncia e a dos mineiros também e de todo o pessoal lá de cima)

Sobre as variações de pronúncia, Outside já explicou, só retifico que o som do nosso "ó" é melhor representado por *[**ɑ] *do que por *[**ɔ**]*.

ó = p*o*p
ô = b*o*at


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## kurumin

Alandria said:


> Valendo lembrar que de São Paulo pra baixo a pronuncia das vogais é: a, bê, cê, dê, *ê*.
> 
> Do Rio pra cima é : a, bê, cê, dê, *é* (essa é a minha pronúncia e a dos mineiros também e de todo o pessoal lá de cima)
> 
> Sobre as variações de pronúncia, Outside já explicou, só retifico que o som do nosso "ó" é melhor representado por *[**ɑ] *do que por *[**ɔ**]*.
> 
> ó = p*o*p
> ô = b*o*at



pop é [pap] em muitos sotaques americanos, então 
pode criar confusão 
a vogal em b_*o*_at também varia muito: nos sotaques do Oeste Americano e no padrão britânico [@]

http://reviews.cnet.com/Nikon_D50_w_18_55mm_lens/4505-6501_7-31341793-2.html
a pronúncia de CHILD MODE, PORTRAIT MODE no clipezinho


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## kurumin

Alandria said:


> Valendo lembrar que de São Paulo pra baixo a pronuncia das vogais é: a, bê, cê, dê, *ê*.
> 
> Do Rio pra cima é : a, bê, cê, dê, *é* (essa é a minha pronúncia e a dos mineiros também e de todo o pessoal lá de cima)


eu uso ê/é e ô/ó, tanto faz

a bê cê dê ê/é fê gê...

Mário Perini (ele é mineiro) em sua gramática americana diz:
á
bê
cê
dê
ê ou é
...
ô ou ó

Ó também se usou como interjeição [de chamar], mas hoje em dia, é raro esse uso...
Nos dias de hoje Ó significa _Olha_! [Aí ó]
E para chamar nós usamos ô: ô mainha, ô painho, ô Maria...


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## Alandria

kurumin said:


> eu uso ê/é e ô/ó, tanto faz
> 
> a bê cê dê ê/é fê gê...
> 
> Mário Perini (ele é mineiro) em sua gramática americana diz:
> á
> bê
> cê
> dê
> ê ou é
> ...
> ô ou ó



Essa gramática é bem democrática, não conhecia. Muitas gramáticas (principalmente as antigas) preferem traçar apenas a forma "é". E os mineiros pelo que eu sei preferem apenas a forma "é", pode perguntar aos nossos amigos mineiros do Wordreference, se não me engano, já houve um tópico assim. 

Outra coisa, *"Fê"*? 
Eu nunca ouvi isso. Você não quis dizer "éfe"?


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## MOC

Por aqui,

"é" sounds like the "e" in "let", "get"...

"e" sounds like the "ee" in "see", "fee"...

Penso que em Portugal não varie muito disto embora possa haver ligeiras diferenças em certas regiões.


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## Outsider

Alandria said:


> Sobre as variações de pronúncia, Outside já explicou, só retifico que o som do nosso "ó" é melhor representado por *[**A] *do que por *[**O**]*.


Olhando para este diagrama, não parece nada! Refere-se ao "ó" brasileiro?  



MOC said:


> Por aqui,
> 
> "é" sounds like the "e" in "let", "get"...
> 
> "e" sounds like the "ee" in "see", "fee"... *Melhor: "e" in "be", "me", etc.*
> 
> Penso que em Portugal não varie muito disto embora possa haver ligeiras diferenças em certas regiões.


De acordo. Eu tinha entendido mal a pergunta.


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## olivinha

MOC said:


> Por aqui,
> 
> "é" sounds like the "e" in "let", "get"...
> 
> "e" sounds like the "ee" in "see", "fee"...


 
I´m not sure about Portugal, but "é" in Brasil sounds _more_ like the "a" in "mat" or "sat", pronounced with the American accent. It´s true that for us, Brazilians, the difference (in the American pronunciation) between "met" and "mat" is so subtle that we tend to pronounce them both as "mat". 

I think the "e" in "let" or "get" is more equivalent to ê than é. 
O


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## MOC

I think the "é" probably sounds the same here and there. What happens is I say "lét" and "gét". Never "lêt" or "gêt". I never heard anyone say it like that but maybe some do. I don't know.

The reason why I didn't use "mat" or "sat" is because in some english speaking countries this sounds like "mat" and "sat" as these would be if read in portuguese. It was to avoid misunderstandings.


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## olivinha

Ok, MOC, my reference is American English (compared to Brazilian Portuguese) and in American English "let" is not pronounced as lét (I am pretty sure about that). How would you then differentiate the pronunciation of "apostar" and "morcego" in American English? Bet and bat?

Also, I used "mat" and "sat" as examples because Boardslide´s native language seems to be American English. 
Just wanted to make it easier for him, that´s all.

Lastly, I should rephrase, I think that the "e" in "let" or "get" is _closer _to ê than é. (Again, my reference is American English).
Is that better? 
O


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## MOC

I say it slightly different. But I say clearly "Bét" for "apostar" while I would move slightly towards the "a" for "morcego" even it still sounds like "bet". I know I say them differently though.

And I didn't consider his nationality when giving my reply, just his language. Sorry about that.

Maybe you're right olivinha. I wasn't trying to imply you were wrong, in case it looked like it. It's just that to my ears the sound of "let" whether it's American English or British English is the one i use on words with a "é" sound. Examples in portuguese: "Telmo", "Évora", "café". At least to me it doesn't sound like at all like the "ê" I use in words like "vê", "pelo" ou " tema".


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## olivinha

MOC said:


> I say it slightly different. But i say clearly "Bét" for "apostar" while I would move slightly towards the "a" for "morcego" even it still sounds like "bet". I know i say them differently though.


 
The way you pronounce "bét" I daresay is Portuguese-influenced.



MOC said:


> And i didn't consider his nationality when giving my reply, just his language. Sorry about that.


 
Oh, me neither, not his nationality, I don´t even know what it is. His language, yes!
O


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## Outsider

olivinha said:


> Ok, MOC, my reference is American English (compared to Brazilian Portuguese) and in American English "let" is not pronounced as lét (I am pretty sure about that). How would you then differentiate the pronunciation of "apostar" and "morcego" in American English? Bet and bat?


If this site is correct, then MOC is right.

bet [bEt] (bét)
bat [bæt] This vowel does not exist in any variety of Portuguese, that I know.



olivinha said:


> Lastly, I should rephrase, I think that the "e" in "let" or "get" is _closer _to ê than é. (Again, my reference is American English).


I disagree with that also.

ê: [e]
This sound does not exist as a pure vowel in most varieties of AE and BE.

BTW, all you have to do to confirm this is listen to the recordings I linked to above.


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## Outsider

It's a shame Olivinha decided to give up just when I had found an explanation for her unusual point of view. She must be thinking of the æ-tensing that is a feature of many American accents.


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## olivinha

I can´t resist! 
So you guys think that é is closer to the e in let than the a in sat?????!!!!!!! Again, American English!
O



Outsider said:


> It's a shame Olivinha decided to give up just when I had found an explanation for her unusual point of view. She must be thinking of the æ-tensing that is a feature of many American accents.


 

YES, THANK YOU! 
What is the explanation?

O


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## Outsider

I guess the explanation comes down to the fact that we are more attuned to British English, while you are attuned to American English. 
Although notice that the æ-tensing is not a universal feature even in American English.


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## Alandria

Tem (há) um jeito de resolver isso mais rápido.

Vou me basear na pronúncia do português europeu, que creio ser mais estável nesse ponto do que a nossa. Acho que o português europeu tem menos variação na pronúncia das pretônicas do que o nosso
apenas acho, não tenho certeza.

*O*piniões = ó (português europeu e *apenas* nordeste brasileiro)
Sel*e*ção = é (português europeu e *apenas* nordeste brasileiro)

*O*piniões = ô (português brasileiro)
S*e*l*e*ção = ê (português brasileiro)


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## olivinha

Outsider said:


> I guess the explanation comes down to the fact that we are more attuned to British English, while you are attuned to American English.
> Although notice that the æ-tensing is not a universal feature even in American English.


 
Of course, that's why I emphasized so many times that my reference was American English (as far as mat, sat, bat).

Now, I think that bet is never bét. For example, when you listen to _Message in a Bottle_ or _Let It Be_, do you hear Sting pronouncing message as "méssage" or Paul McCartney saying "lét"? They clealry are not. Ok, they don´t pronouce them as ê either, I will give you that, it´s more like the "e" in Spanish. Actually, if you compare a Brazilian and a Spanish speaking person pronouncing the word "message" for example, you will clearly hear the Brazilian saying "méssage" as opposed to the "message" of the Spanish speaker; the latter, I think, is closer to the English e sound. Any Brazilian (not bilingual) living in the US for a while will also pronounce "man" and "men", or "pan" and "pen" the same way: mén and pén.

Of course, I should also ask if Brazilians and Portuguese people pronounce "é" the same way, which I regret to admit I don´t know. Anyway, when I said that bet does not equal to bét I was referring to the way Brazilians pronounce é. 

O

PS: Sorry about my YES, THANK YOU! I did not mean to yell, I just had, let´s say, a cathartic moment . I was going to delete it but will leave my apologies here instead.


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## Outsider

olivinha said:


> Of course, that's why I emphasized so many times that my reference was American English (as far as mat, sat, bat).
> 
> Now, I think that bet is never bét. For example, when you listen to _Message in a Bottle_ or _Let It Be_, do you hear Sting pronouncing message as "méssage" or Paul McCartney saying "lét"? They clealry are not. Ok, they don´t pronouce them as ê either, I will give you that, it´s more like the "e" in Spanish.


I may agree that it's not exactly the same as our "é", but quite honestly the difference seems negligible to me. 
I would definitely say that "méssage" is closer to the mark than "mêssage"!



olivinha said:


> Any Brazilian (not bilingual) living in the US for a while will also pronounce "man" and "men", or "pan" and "pen" the same way: mén and pén.


And in my opinion:

mén
but
pén

Many Portuguese make this mistake also. This is because the actual sound in "man" (in standard AE and RP) is [æ], a vowel which does not exist in Portuguese, or most Romance dialects. So people look for the closest approximation in their language, which is "é" (or at least so they perceive it). Note how both [æ] and "é" are open vowels -- "ê", by contrast, is a close vowel.



olivinha said:


> Of course, I should also ask if Brazilians and Portuguese people pronounce "é" the same way, which I regret to admit I don´t know.


If there is any difference, I never noticed.



olivinha said:


> PS: Sorry about my YES, THANK YOU! I did not mean to yell, I just had, let´s say, a cathartic moment . I was going to delete it but will leave my apologies here instead.


No problem, I had not read anything into the capitalization.


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## Alandria

Gente, não há diferença de pronúncia entre o "e" aberto brasileiro e o "e" aberto português, o que há é uma variação na pronuncia das pretônicas.

Eu conheço o "e" aberto português muito bem, ele aparece em "sel*e*cção" (é assim que eles grafam a palavra), porque esse "c" mudo deles abaixa a vogal.


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## kurumin

man/men não é um bom exemplo por causa da nasalização que ocorre na maioria dos sotaques americanos

gêt, sêt é a pronúncia americana SULISTA 
gét, sét é a pronúncia americana padrão


flash/flesh
bat/bet

A é [AE], E é [E] (é)
AE é um som mais aberto.

Já ouvi muitos cariocas [da Zona Norte] usar [AE] na palavra É...

_ É_! [AE] (às vezes me soa mais como [éa])
mas _ela _[éla]


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## Alandria

kurumin said:


> man/men não é um bom exemplo por causa da nasalização que ocorre na maioria dos sotaques americanos
> 
> gêt, sêt é a pronúncia americana SULISTA
> gét, sét é a pronúncia americana padrão
> 
> 
> flash/flesh
> bat/bet
> 
> A é [AE], E é [E] (é)
> AE é um som mais aberto.
> 
> Já ouvi muitos cariocas [da Zona Norte] usar [AE] na palavra É...
> 
> _ É_! [AE] (às vezes me soa mais como [éa])
> mas _ela _[éla]



Também me soa assim, na minha opinião o sotaque carioca é mais identificável por isso do que pelo chiado, note que em florianópolis, recife, belém e manaus não usam essas ditongações fortes.


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## boardslide315

Ay! I didn't realize this was so complicated, sorry . 

From what I have read, it seems that é generally = the a in sat, as pronounced in SAE, right? (the ae-tensing from the wiki article is only really found in the northeast, and even there I don't think it is used by the majority.) 

And then e = bet, let, etc? (BE and AE are pretty much identical with this sound, though some British may lean very slightly to a long A sound, somewhere between the AE and Spanish pronunciations.) According to these guys, "the Portuguese e is pronounced like e in empty or if it's at the end of a word, like ee in cheese." Would you all agree?

Finally, they say ê is "just like e but shorter." If I just want to be understood, would I be safe in pronouncing it the same as e, or should I try to make a distinction?

Oh, and thank you to everyone who has posted, it was a little surprising to see the amount of help you've given...I think Portuguese may have the friendliest members on all of WR


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## MOC

boardslide315 said:


> "the Portuguese e is pronounced like e in empty or if it's at the end of a word, like ee in cheese." Would you all agree?
> 
> Finally, they say ê is "just like e but shorter." If I just want to be understood, would I be safe in pronouncing it the same as e, or should I try to make a distinction?
> 
> Oh, and thank you to everyone who has posted, it was a little surprising to see the amount of help you've given...I think Portuguese may have the friendliest members on all of WR




As for your first sentence, I personally read "émpty" but I'm willing to admit I may read it wrongly because it is my perception from English and not necessarily the correct one. 

"e" when alone, meaning "and", is pronounced like the "e" in the english verb "be". I didn't think this pronunciation changed much from Portugal to Brazil, but I don't want you to take it for granted because in some regions it may be said differently. However I think if you say "e" as you would say the "e" in "be" everyone will know what you are saying.

Was this clear or too confusing?

Now another thing, the "e" at the end of the words may sound like "ee" in "cheese" IF you are in Brazil. In Portugal, however, the "e" at the end of the words sounds like the stand alone "e" in "cheese". It's clearly a distinct sound so maybe you should consider who your audience is before picking one.

Clear again or did you lose me? 


As for the "ê" sound, I think I can't help you. 
I can't find anything in English that sounds like my "ê" sound or the one I hear all the time in Portuguese. However people seem to find it in a lot of English words, where I clearly hear a completely different sound. However, I can't give you any example, for you to understand that sound so maybe it's better if you take the other suggestions given so far.


And to finish it all up, thank you for your compliment towards us portuguese speakers on WR. 

I agree with you there. There's a bunch of nice and helpful people in here from both sides of the atlantic. I'm using this opportunity to thank them for that too.


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## boardslide315

MOC said:


> "e" when alone, meaning "and", is pronounced like the "e" in the english verb "be".
> 
> Now another thing, the "e" at the end of the words may sound like "ee" in "cheese" IF you are in Brazil.



Ok, so in both of these cases it is pronounced like the spanish "y" (English "be?")


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## kurumin

boardslide315 said:


> Ok, so in both of these cases it is pronounced like the spanish "y" (English "be?")



e as a conjunction ''and'' can be pronounced as both
1 _  happy
2 [e] say  [without the final glide]_


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## olivinha

kurumin said:


> man/men não é um bom exemplo por causa da nasalização que ocorre na maioria dos sotaques americanos


My point with this example was to say that expatriate Brazilians living in the US, who are not bilingual and whose reference has been always American English, do not differenciate between these two sounds.




kurumin said:


> gêt, sêt é a pronúncia americana SULISTA


Yes, and among some African American communities, if not most of them.



kurumin said:


> gét, sét é a pronúncia americana padrão


Kurimin, it is really not. It is, however, how Portuguese speaking people tend to hear it. Outsider admitted that was some difference between our "é" and the "e" in, say, _message_, but for him quite negiglible. Well, I did say that for Portuguese speaking people this difference was very sutle. If I may make a comparision, I still have the hardest time trying to show my Spanish husband the difference between vovô and vovó, he just can´t hear it. 
Anyway, I think in Portuguese we do not have quite the same sound as in _get_, it is something between our _é_ and the Spanish _e_. Again I insist, listen to Sting and Paul McCartney, they clearly do not say méssage ou lét (and they are not Americans!). Of course, we all have accents. There is nothing wrong in pronouncing _méssage_ or _lét_, people will understand you, besides one can always rely on context to clarify possible misunderstandings (met x mat or pen x pan) .
Now, since our friend Boardslide is from the US, I do think that the best way for him to understand the Portuguese "é" is to compare with the sounds of "a" in words such as _bat_, _sat_ or _mat_. I am attaching some videos here. Listen to the way Michael Keaton and the football player pronounce _batman_. Especially the first "a", I think, is closer to our "é" than the "e" in _let_ or _get_.
O


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## Outsider

boardslide315 said:


> According to these guys, "the Portuguese e is pronounced like e in empty or if it's at the end of a word, like ee in cheese." Would you all agree?


The Portuguese _word_ "e" is pronounced just like its Spanish cognate "y" (with the exception of some Brazilian dialects, but, as MOC said, you will be understood everywhere if you pronounce it like "y").

As for the Portuguese _letter_ "e", the description in that website is grossly oversimplified. The "e" (without accent mark) has three main different pronunciations, four if you count nasalization, a fifth one in some dialects, and a sixth one in some more localized dialects.

Don't be scared, though. Most of these sounds behave pretty much like variations of each other. You can get by pronouncing the "e" in just two ways, or even pronouncing it always the same way. However, if you are serious about learning Portuguese, I recommend that you at least learn three of the different pronunciations.

You can hear most of them in the site with sound files I linked to on the previous page. Click on the sounds:

[E] (--> we sometimes write this sound as "é", when it is stressed)
[e] (--> we sometimes write this sound as "ê", when it is stressed)
_ (--> the "e" only has this sound when it is unstressed, though not every unstressed "e" has this sound)

(these are the three I would focus on in the beginning)
See the general paradigm here.

With time, I would add also the nasal [e]. You can listen to it here.



boardslide315 said:



			Finally, they say ê is "just like e but shorter."
		
Click to expand...

Their description is completely wrong, I'm afraid. The difference between "é" and "ê" has zero to do with length. 

As a matter of fact, vowel length is always irrelevant in Portuguese._


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## MOC

kurumin said:


> e as a conjunction ''and'' can be pronounced as both
> 1 _  happy
> 2 [e] say  [without the final glide]_


_

boardslide, make sure you notice the second one wouldn't be used in Portugal. If you're using it with brazilians though, I guess it's ok due to his reply. In Portugal everyone pronounces it like the spanish "y".


Now replying to olivinha, my "é" is the one in the song "Don't l*e*t me down by the Beatles. I just listened to it again and it is that one. Not the one in B*a*tman. That one to me looks like somewhere in between "é" and "a" and i don't use the sound I make for these words in English in any portuguese words (at least I can't remember any).


The word "Say" i say it kind of the same way I say "sei" in Portuguese, which has to do with the fact that I don't say "sei" the way I thought I did, but the way Outsider pointed out in another discussion. Now everytime i hear someone saying that sound I can't stop noticing it, while before I didn't even know it was there. I blame Outsider on that. _


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## olivinha

MOC said:


> Now replying to olivinha, my "é" is the one in the song "Don't l*e*t me down by the Beatles. I just listened to it again and it is that one. Not the one in B*a*tman.


 
MOC, I`ve just heard the song and I insist, they do not say lét, believe me. It´s a subtle, tenuous difference (for Portuguese natives) but they do not say lét. At this part of the song, it´s the four of them singing together, and one of them sings in this high-pitched voiced that might give the impression of lét.

Ok, one last try. Listen to the way Mick Jagger pronounces "get" in this famous song I´m attaching here, especially the very first sentence (_I can´t get no satisfaction_). He says it twice right in the beginning of the song. Later he will repeat it in the chorous but then it´s not so clear as it is in the beginning.
In this page there are several videos, the one I´d like you to listen is the Rolling Stones, The - Satisfaction (1965)(Shinding)-
video
Please do let me know what your hear. 
O

PS: Out, why didn´t I listen to you?


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## MOC

olivinha, in that case I hear "gêt".

However my (and notice that thas is what I've been writing for a long time and not trying to make it a rule for everyone else) "é" is (at least) a lot closer to the "e" in the "let" of "Don't let me down", than to the "a" in "Batman", which sounds nothing like my "é" or to the pronunciation of any other word in Portuguese (as spoken by myself).




Alandria said:


> Tem (há) um jeito de resolver isso mais rápido.
> 
> Vou me basear na pronúncia do português europeu, que creio ser mais estável nesse ponto do que a nossa. Acho que o português europeu tem menos variação na pronúncia das pretônicas do que o nosso
> apenas acho, não tenho certeza.
> 
> *O*piniões = ó (português europeu e *apenas* nordeste brasileiro)
> Sel*e*ção = é (português europeu e *apenas* nordeste brasileiro)
> 
> *O*piniões = ô (português brasileiro)
> S*e*l*e*ção = ê (português brasileiro)



I just noticed this post, and those (the european portuguese ones) are the ways I would pronounce those words. I believe for the most part of Portugal those are pretty accurate as well.


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## olivinha

MOC said:


> olivinha, in that case I hear "gêt".


I appreaciated your responding to me. Tx!




MOC said:


> However my (and notice that thas is what I've been writing for a long time and not trying to make it a rule for everyone else) "é" is (at least) a lot closer to the "e" in the "let" of "Don't let me down", than to the "a" in "Batman", which sounds nothing like my "é" or to the pronunciation of any other word in Portuguese (as spoken by myself).


 
Ok, I´ll respect that.

O


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## uchi.m

Alandria said:


> Outra coisa, *"Fê"*?
> Eu nunca ouvi isso. Você não quis dizer "éfe"?



Fê é uma leitura um pouco antiga da letra F.
Há algum tempo atrás, existiam no Brasil uns caminhões da marca FNM. A sigla, lia-se fenemê.


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## Outsider

Parece que estas coisas de fonética são um bocado subjectivas. Cada um ouve os sons à sua maneira, e depois não nos entendemos -- e isto somos nós, que falamos a mesma língua. Imaginem se falássemos línguas diferentes! 



MOC said:


> The word "Say" i say it kind of the same way I say "sei" in Portuguese, which has to do with the fact that I don't say "sei" the way I thought I did, but the way Outsider pointed out in another discussion.


Sabe, MOC, eu também sempre pensei o mesmo, até que comecei a ler transcrições fonéticas. Ao que parece, o "ay" inglês lê-se [ei], ao passo que o "ei" português lisboeta se pronuncia [@i] (em vez do @ devia ser um "a" de pernas para o ar, ou um "e" de pernas para o ar). 
Confundido? Eu também.


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## uchi.m

Boardslide315, you appear to be acquainted to the Spanish vowels, aren't you?

I think _ê_ is pronouced just like the Spanish plain _e_. Well, that's just my personal opinion -- from the last posts, you probably already noticed how hard it is to explain pronounciation with words!

Abraços.


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## Outsider

uchi.m said:


> Boardslide315, you appear to be acquainted to the Spanish vowels, aren't you?
> 
> I think _ê_ is pronouced just like the Spanish plain _e_.


I'm afraid not, Uchi. Apparently, the Spanish "e" is halfway between Portuguese "ê" and "é".


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## Alandria

Outsider said:


> Parece que estas coisas de fonética são um bocado subjectivas. Cada um ouve os sons à sua maneira, e depois não nos entendemos -- e isto somos nós, que falamos a mesma língua. Imaginem se falássemos línguas diferentes!





			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> I'm afraid not, Uchi. Apparently, the Spanish "e" is halfway between Portuguese "ê" and "é".



Concordo com a primeira citação. Mas acho que eles não distinguem "é" de "ê", dependendo  do falante, algumas palavras podem realmente soar com o "é" aberto, nem depende do dialeto, depende apenas do falante, eu já notei isso. 

Aqui no Brasil é a mesma coisa com o "a" átono final. Normalmente o meu "a" átono final soa quase sempre como um "a" de cabeça para baixo e virado, mas de vez em quando pode soar como um schwa. Isso é muito curioso.


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## boardslide315

Outsider said:


> I'm afraid not, Uchi. Apparently, the Spanish "e" is halfway between Portuguese "ê" and "é".



So would using the Spanish pronunciation of 'e' be close enough to both that I can just use that and be understood?



Outsider said:


> Cada um ouve os sons à sua maneira, e depois não nos entendemos -- e isto somos nós, que falamos a mesma língua. Imaginem se falássemos línguas diferentes!



Is it really difficult for natives to understand speakers of different dialects?


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## Outsider

boardslide315 said:


> So would using the Spanish pronunciation of 'e' be close enough to both that I can just use that and be understood?


Most of the time, I would hazard to say "Yes", though you will sound funny.



boardslide315 said:


> Is it really difficult for natives to understand speakers of different dialects?


No, you misunderstood. I was saying that it's difficult for people to understand what they mean when they start talking about sounds and pronunciations. 

And sometimes we complicate what is simple. Look, you've got the link to the sound recordings. Why not give it a go?

e _ (most dialects)
é [E]_


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## MOC

boardslide315 said:


> So would using the Spanish pronunciation of 'e' be close enough to both that I can just use that and be understood?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it really difficult for natives to understand speakers of different dialects?




Some dialects are hard to figure but I think what Outsider meant is that each of us seems to find a different sound on the pronunciation of some words. However  the difference in those cases is, usually, small, and so you shouldn't have much trouble with that.

For example, to my ears, the "ê" sound is really different from the "é" sound, which doesn't mean that if someone approaches me and says "Vou ao caf*ê*" (instead of caf*é*), I won't understand.  I will understand what the person means. I'll just find it strange.

The stand alone "e" meaning "and" though sounds nothing like those. In Portugal it sounds like our "i" (or the spanish "y"). The other case in which is different, is the "e" at the end of the words which we barely say like the last "e" in "cheese".

If you try to use the spanish "e" for the first two cases, people will probably understand what you mean (at least in most cases) even if they find it somewhat strange.


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## Outsider

Good point, MOC. At the very least, you should try to pronounce the words "e" and "é" differently, Boardslide. They are very frequent words, and if you don't distinguish them that's bound to lead to many misunderstandings. Don't worry too much about the others, but get these two right.


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## MOC

Just one example to explain why pronouncing "e" and "é" in a different way is important.

A Daniela é a menina mais alta. (Daniela is the tallest girl)

A Daniela e a menina mais alta. (Daniela and the tallest girl)

If Daniela is actually a really short girl and you use the first pronounciation, people will probably stare at you like this --->


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## kurumin

Alandria said:


> Aqui no Brasil é a mesma coisa com o "a" átono final. Normalmente o meu "a" átono final soa quase sempre como um "a" de cabeça para baixo e virado, mas de vez em quando pode soar como um schwa. Isso é muito curioso.


O meu varia entre o [a] e o [6] (a de cabeça pra baixo) 
é como a pronúncia inglesa de AMERICA, MAMA,
não é bem um shwa


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## kurumin

MOC said:


> Just one example to explain why pronouncing "e" and "é" in a different way is important.
> 
> A Daniela é a menina mais alta. (Daniela is the tallest girl)
> 
> A Daniela e a menina mais alta. (Daniela and the tallest girl)
> 
> If Daniela is actually a really short girl and you use the first pronounciation, people will probably stare at you like this --->


ê = closed
é = open

''DESCA DESSA CRUZ VEM NOS DAR A MÃO'' (de uma música da banda baiana AS MENINAS]

desca [dêsa] ''get off''
dessa [désa] ''of this''
(get off of this cross, give us a hand)


sede [séde] ''seat, center''
sede [sêde] ''thurst''

nego [nêgo] ''afrobrazilian''' or 'buddy'' 
nego [négo] ''I say no''

meu [mew] ''my''
mel [méw] ''honey

céu [céw] ''sky''
seu [sêw] ''your''

meu mel, seu céu
my honey, your sky

[closed, open, closed, open]



many times
open e ~ closed e is important to tell the difference between the verb and the noun


o apêlo / eu apélo
o govêrno / eu govérno


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## MOC

Those also apply in Portugal (except for "desça" which would be "dêSsa", and "mel" which would be read as "mél") but what did that have to do with my post? I'm asking because you quoted it.


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## kurumin

I quoted to give some more examples 
it is important to distinguish between open and closed vowels after all, unlike in Italian, where speakers from North and South don't make the distinctions standard language (based on Central Italy dialects, that maintain 7 vowels, inherited from Latin) has 

In Portuguese, 5 vowel neutralization is only present in African countries...


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## Alandria

É verdade, gente.

Muitos estrangeiros não conseguem distinguir os sons das vogais fechadas e abertas na língua portuguesa, é o principal ponto que os denuncia como "estrangeiros".


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## MOC

Alandria said:


> É verdade, gente.
> 
> Muitos estrangeiros não conseguem distinguir os sons das vogais fechadas e abertas na língua portuguesa, é o principal ponto que os denuncia como "estrangeiros".



Eu pessoalmente identifico pelo "ão"  Ainda estou para ouvir qualquer não nativo do idioma português a conseguir fazer esse som. O meu primo chama-se João e os estrangeiros (de qualquer outra nacionalidade cujo idioma não seja o Português) repetem sempre imensas vezes o nome dele até conseguir dizer direito... e sempre sem sucesso.


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## Alandria

MOC said:


> Eu pessoalmente identifico pelo "ão"  Ainda estou para ouvir qualquer não nativo do idioma português a conseguir fazer esse som. O meu primo chama-se João e os estrangeiros (de qualquer outra nacionalidade cujo idioma não seja o Português) repetem sempre imensas vezes o nome dele até conseguir dizer direito... e sempre sem sucesso.



Lara Pausini consegue fazer a nasalização do "ão" (quando ela vem ao brasil) de uma forma bem neutra muitas vezes. 

Esse "ão" tem vários alofones no Brasil e em Portugal, a mim me soa "estrangeiro" o modo como um paulistano ou um sulista (dependendo do lugar) diz "ão".


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## kurumin

Alandria said:


> Lara Pausini consegue fazer a nasalização do "ão" (quando ela vem ao brasil) de uma forma bem neutra muitas vezes.
> 
> Esse "ão" tem vários alofones no Brasil e em Portugal, a mim me soa "estrangeiro" o modo como um paulistano ou um sulista (dependendo do lugar) diz "ão".


acho que Laura fala melhor espanhol e português que o italiano  
[porque a língua nativa dela, o _romagnolo_, se parece mais com o espanhol do que com o próprio toscano]


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## Outsider

Outsider said:


> Sabe, MOC, eu também sempre pensei o mesmo, até que comecei a ler transcrições fonéticas. Ao que parece, o "ay" inglês lê-se [ei], ao passo que o "ei" português lisboeta se pronuncia [@i] (em vez do @ devia ser um "a" de pernas para o ar, ou um "e" de pernas para o ar).
> Confundido? Eu também.


Acho que descobri a explicação! O [e] do inglês (americano) é uma vogal média, como a espanhola!


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## MOC

Outsider, estive a ouvir as vogais todas listadas no diagrama da direita.

Segundo esse diagrama, a palavra "módulo" é dita com um fonema que eu garantidamente não uso (pelo menos não nessa palavra). Já experimentou ouvir?


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## olivinha

Outsider said:


> Acho que descobri a explicação! O [e] do inglês (americano) é uma vogal média, como a espanhola!


 
Este [e] é o de "bed"?
O


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## MOC

olivinha said:


> Este [e] é o de "bed"?
> O




De acordo com essa página da wiki sim. A mim não me soa a "ê" mas realmente é diferente do "é". Eu é que so noto ouvindo os dois. Ouvindo apenas um deles separadamente soa-me igual ao "é". O "ê" usado em Portugal, eu diria que está um degrau acima (na parte das vogais mais fechadas).

Quanto ao som usado para palavras como "bat" como já discutimos, este também não é o "é" está abaixo (mais aberto) com o exemplo "fat". Mas neste caso é este realmente o som que eu faço, porque este não me soa a "é".

O "é" de café por exemplo (esse é aliás o exemplo que aí é dado), encontra-se mais acima, ou seja menos aberto que o em "fat" mas mais aberto que o de "bed".


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## Outsider

MOC said:


> Segundo esse diagrama, a palavra "módulo" é dita com um fonema que eu garantidamente não uso (pelo menos não nessa palavra). Já experimentou ouvir?


Não tenho instalado o _software_ necessário para ouvir as amostras da Wikipedia, infelizmente.  
Mas use a tabela que eu pus na primeira página, e diga-me o que acha...



MOC said:


> Quanto ao som usado para palavras como "bat" como já discutimos, este também não é o "é" está abaixo (mais aberto) com o exemplo "fat". Mas neste caso é este realmente o som que eu faço, porque este não me soa a "é".
> 
> O "é" de café por exemplo (esse é aliás o exemplo que aí é dado), encontra-se mais acima, ou seja menos aberto que o em "fat" mas mais aberto que o de "bed".


Mas lembre-se que há variações regionais. Alguns americanos dizem "bêât", "fêât" (este "ê" aqui é a tal vogal média).


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## MOC

O que dizem ser o som de m*ó*dulo na página da wikipedia é o open-mid back.

Quais são os fonemas que se considere que sejam usados em português? Entre os da tabela da 1ª página? Pelo menos para â, ê, ô, á, é, ó?

EDIT: Já encontrei. Nevermind.


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