# Urdu : Be / Na + noun + â



## Cilquiestsuens

Salam,


A few words I know in Urdu are made on the above pattern....

Let me give you examples:

*Be-sabrâ* - impatient

*Be-ustâdâ* - having learnt with no master (in French we'd say something like : autodidacte, which sounds much more positive than in Urdu)

*Nâ-shukrâ* - ungrateful (is the most common one)

These words are used as adjectives (possibly nominalized?). However I have never heard / seen them in the feminine form... Maybe because these adjectives have a corresponding noun, much more commonly used, by the way: *be-sabrî, be-ustâdî, nâshukrî*.... 

My questions : are the above adjectives invariable ??????

Do you know other words made on the same pattern ????


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## panjabigator

I believe those adjectives are invariable, and when seen in the femine form, they become nouns.

What would the the noun be for <besharam>?


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## lcfatima

I think besharami


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## Illuminatus

Yes. The noun is Besharmi (बेशर्मी)
They don't change with Gender or number, as far as I know.

Another example would be Ehsaan-faraamosh एहसान-फरामोश and ehsaan-faraamoshi एहसान फरामोशी


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## Cilquiestsuens

lcfatima said:


> I think besharami


 
THis would work but I think *be-hayâ'î* is more used...


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## Illuminatus

Be-Sharmi is common in the Hindi Speaking world. Urdu speakers will prefer Be-hayaai, I am sure.

In fact, *Be-Sharm! be-haya! *is a common Hindi phrase that is used liberally in movies.

Also, though the spelling is बेशर्म, I almost always hear be-shar*a*m. An example of lazy pronunciation.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Illuminatus said:


> Another example would be Ehsaan-faraamosh एहसान-फरामोश and ehsaan-faraamoshi एहसान फरामोशी


 
Well, I was asking about a very specific and (I think) rare pattern of formation of adjectives....

ehsaan-faramosh doesn't have the alif, (â), so it follows the most common pattern, we don't say ehsaan-faramosha...

I can't think of any adjectives of the three I've quoted in the original post of this thread.... If you think of any one, please let me know....



Illuminatus said:


> Be-Sharmi is common in the Hindi Speaking world. Urdu speakers will prefer Be-hayaai, I am sure.
> 
> In fact, *Be-Sharm! be-haya! *is a common Hindi phrase that is used liberally in movies.
> 
> Also, though the spelling is बेशर्म, I almost always hear be-shar*a*m. An example of lazy pronunciation.


 

Interesting. I would say that Be-sharam, be-haya is a common Urdu sentence too, but for the noun, Urdu prefers Be-hayâ'î...

Other words of this kind much used in Urdu *Be-ghayrat* (very common insult).

And as a noun *be-râh-rawî*... stronger than *besharmi / be-hayâ'î*, I think... Have you ever heard this last one in Hindi????


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## panjabigator

So many degrees of shamelessness!  Love it 

Have never heard this last one you mention.  What could be stronger than just plain old shameless?  Or even better, what is the line between shameless and worse than shameless?


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## lcfatima

Just in my humble observation, I don't think besharm is less used than behaya for Urdu speakers, as a matter of fact I think besharm is very common.


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## Illuminatus

I've heard *Be-ghayrat*, but not *be-râh-rawî*.

Anyhow, except *Besharm*, all others are Movie Dialogue Stuff.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Yes, *be-râh-rawi*, is more like indecency, indecent behavior....


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## Faylasoof

Hi,  I must say I too haven’t heard of  be-râh-rawi, nor be-ustâdâ. Do you have references of their usage? Preferably by well-known writers, poets or a reliable dictionary.  The only thing closest to the former is راہ رو  = wayfarer, traveler (from Farsi – derived  from  راہ رفتن   = to set off / go on a journey).  For the latter, we use   خود آموز self-taught, autodidact  instead.  BTW,    بیصبرا = بیصبر [a colloquialism] (= impatient) is used quite often.  Other words of this pattern are: بیپروا    = careless, heedless, negligent; بیوفا  =  faithless, perfidious, treacherous. All perfectly ‘respectable’ words.   Regarding the other words, all three of the following are used, sometimes together, with the meanings shown:  بیغیرت  = shameless, immodest, wanton;  بیحیا = shameless, immodest, impudent, brazen;  بیشرم  = immoral, shameless, immodest, impudent.  ..  and another word of above pattern is  بےتكا


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## Cilquiestsuens

Actually Be-raah-rawii is such a common word in Pk.... And I've heard it used by Karachi wallay all the time. Let's say it is a polite word used to avoid stronger ones such as faHaashii.... I will try to find some references but it  definitely is a modern word in this sense.... I think I've seen him somewhere used by Ghalib but simply in the sense of gum-raahii...

Thank you for your input and the *be-tukaa* word, which made me think of another word in the same pattern : *be-Dhangâ*.....

A last question : are these words invariable ? I am not sure, because in the case of this last one, *be-Dhangâ*, i've heard it used in expressions such as : *be-Dhange tariiqe sey...*


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## Illuminatus

Yeah, Be-tuka and Be-dhanga are variable.

_Aisi be-tuki baatein mat karo!_


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## Faylasoof

Words like *be sabra* and *be dhanga* are called _colloquialisms_. Though used, the preferred usage in higher Urdu registers would be *be sabr* and *be dhang* – these of don’t change, as you all know:

_woh laRka (sing.) bahut be sabr / be dhang / be tuka hai_
_woh laRke (plural) bahut be sabr / be dhang / be* tuke* hein_

Similarly,

_woh loog / ashkhaas (plural of shakhs) nihaayat be dhang / be sabr / be* tuke* heiN_

Also, for be parvaa – no change:

_woh laRka (sing.) bahut *be parvaa*_ _hai_
_woh laRke (plural) bahut*be parvaa*_ _hein_
_woh loog / ashkhaas (plural of shakhs) nihaayat *be parvaa*_ _heiN_

Clico, 

I await your further insight into _be-raah-rawii_ . I must say I really haven’t heard it used it in this manner. BTW, I have lived for a period in Karachi and also visited Lahore several times but never heard this. Lets wait for BP to come back on this as he is a Karachiite! 

The word _raah-rawii_ = _chaal chalan_ = conduct and manners. 

The other word you mention (_faHaashii_) also intrigues me. Do you mean *faHHaash *and *faHHaashii *or simply_ *faHish*_?


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## Cilquiestsuens

Dear Faylasoof,

I'm really surprised that you've never heard a word such as berahrawi... It is quite common, and according to my (limited) experience it is only used in the sense I've given you!

I've googled it and found the following forums : Here, or if you prefer, here, or just simple try the google page for it (here) and you will see yourself that this is a rather widespread word....

As for Fahaashi, you could do the same by googling it and find even more results. You have this dictionary reference, if you like. I am not really aware that the shaddah of the Arabic is maintained in Urdu.... I would rather say it is not and would in this case follow a dictionary reference such as ferozul lughat, or noorul lughat or farhang-e asfiya (let me check all of them, then!)...

As far as literary references are concerned for these words, it may take some time to find them, and since i'm presently overwhelmed with my work... Let's see later

I am not sure I would agree with you that be-sabra is a colloquialism. I have a reference, in the translation + tafseer of the Quran-e-Karim by Mr. Bilgrami, Fuyooz-ul Qur'an is using this word...

And leaving for Eid vacations tomorrow and coming back next week.... I wish a happy Eid to all of you, and will be back at the end of next week to continue these always interesting and instructive discussions !


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## Faylasoof

Dear Cilquiestsuens,

Firstly, I never claimed to be omniscient!! I shall definitely pass these references on to my colleagues who also felt this might be a neologism like _inkisaaree_ – which, bye the way, is wrong though used rampantly now. The correct word is _inkisaar_. But in this case we are not trying to be too hasty in our judgement. The parent word is _raahrau_ (wayfarer), from which _raahravi_ (_chaalchalan_ = conduct) is derived. So _be raahravi_ sits uneasy with me. Shall find out more and while I do not wish to be seen to be overly critical of the poem in your reference, I was hoping that you’ll provide one from someone like Ghalib (this is not his style.) At least that is what I recall you saying. I don’t know who this poet is. Forgive my ignorance but can we really trust him /her? 

Secondly, I am generally very cautious about drawing conclusions from Google searches as there is a considerable amount of faulty, even wholly erroneous, material that has been dumped there. There is no vetting. Although I too do online word searches, I also back them up with either a reliable and vetted online source or well-known and trusted printed sources. 

About _fa_*HH*_aash_, _fa_*HH*_aashi_ etc. Again I wouldn’t go by just a Google search and I’m sure the Urdu _does_ retain the _shaddah_ as it is derived from the Arabic 2nd verbal form: _fa_*HH*_asha_. The word _fa*H*aashii_ is _I think_ wrong though _fa*H*ish_ (lewd, obscene) is correct and is listed. Certainly my 20th Century Urdu-English dictionary (India), Naseem-ul-Lughaat (Pakistan) list _fa_*HH*_aash,_ _fa_*HH*_aashii _and _fa*H*ish_ but not _fa*H*aashii_. I have also been told that MuHazzabul Lughaat (India) also shows a _shaddah_ (i.e. _fa_*HH*_aash_, _fa_*HH*_aashi_ ) and doesn’t list _fa*H*aashi_ but does _fa*H*ish_. 

I am sure you know that our Urdu lexicography has much to be desired. Some dictionaries are sadly lacking in many respects. So let us look at as many dictionaries as possible and see how these words vary. 

Lastly, a point about _shaddah_ in general. We can be terrible at this! Take for example, Mu*z*a*mm*il and Mu*d*a*thth*ir, names for boys, which are now increasingly popular in Indo-Pak esp. Pakistan. These are supposed to be based on the title of two _surahs_ of the Quran. If you look at the title of these two then you’ll see that it is Mu*zz*a*mm*il and Mu*dd*a*thth*ir. There are TWO _shaddah_s in each but in our subcontinent people do not seem to notice this and have decided to drop the first _shaddah_ at their whim! This is a very common mistake. I always thought that Muslims were always extra careful about Quranic words -our holy text- but it seems I was wrong. The same might be happening with _fa_*HH*_aash_ and _fa_*HH*_aashi_. A lazy mistake perhaps? The online reference you gave seems to shows this. 

Have a really nice and happy Eid and looking forward to more stimulating discussions with you in the future.

Best regards.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Dear Faylasoof;

I don't have much time, but I'll try to get your reference about be-raah-rawi if I find it.... Well, I guess I'll never get my mutashakkir one... By the way, I don't see why you need the reference of a nineteenth century poet to prove the validity of a word????

*Be-raah-rawi* is a pakka Urdu word... Why it sits uneasy with you meri samajh sey baahar hai... If I give you this google references was to show you that this word is routinely used in Urdu speaking forums (spell it differently, bayrahrawi, berahravi, beraahrawi, etc; still you find results) because it is used in daily life and any Pakistani would understand it (except the ones who had only English medium and who never speak Urdu, a very small minority indeed)...

As far as *FaHashî* is concerned how you can defend a pronounciation which is never used by Urdu speakers... A geminated H... But well, I don't want argue any more, I have understood that you have very elitist views on the language and it's your right... I know a number of people here who'd have a good laugh if I tried to pronounce faHashî the way you suggest.... even Molwis don't. I am impressed by your knowledge of Farsi, Arabic and all that, but I think we have to show some kind of flexibility and be realistic... Moving from one language to the other, words change, they don't necessarily have to retain the foreign pronounciation... 

As far as muddhaththir muzzammil are concerned, once more I don't think that Urdu speakers are not aware of the shadda on both consonants, many read the Qur'an e shariif, you know... It is just that it is contrary to the phonology of Urdu to have two geminated letters in the same word.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof,

I've been doing some research in dictionaries....

Ferozul Lughat, which is a 'modern' dictionary, defines  *be-raah-rawii* by giving a synonym = *bad-chalnii. *

I think I have found the key to the origin of this word in older dictionaries. In Farhang-e-Asfiya, you just find *be-raah*, which is given as an 'awaamii' version of* gum-raah*.

In Noorul-Lughat, you find the expression *be-raah chalnaa*, which is also given as an 'awaamii' expression... *be-raah-rawii* seems to me to be a scholarly refection of this *be-raah chalnaa* expression, in order to brush off its awaami touch....


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## Cilquiestsuens

Now back to the 'scholarly' discussion on this thread... *Be-ustaada* is also given in the most reliable Urdu dictionary : Feroz-ul Lughat.... call it a colloquialism, but it is used in the Urdu press (I remember I've seen it on an ishtihaar for a Hakiim and read it in the dopeher ke akhbaar)...

Then if anyone is still interested in this discussion, I was watching an old Lollywood movie on TV yesterday and heard one of the characters using : *be-'aqlaa* ! while addressing another one.... So I guess this colloquialism can be potentially used with almost any Farsi-Arabic word ending in a consonant....


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## Faylasoof

Clico,

I seem to have missed this. 

Words like _be-ustaada, be-sabra _are indeed colloquialisms and although they add flavour to common speech and journalese Urdu, I believe they won't be acceptable in literary prose. Nevertheless, we do hear them a lot.

You're right. One could turn almost any noun by adding these prefixes and suffixes. Even _be-dhanga_ is a colloquialism although many think it isn't and some have started using it in their literary writings.


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## Cilquiestsuens

And by the way, husn-e ittefaaq dekhiye,,, I was just talking to somenone who is a reliable urdu speaker and she used the following sentence main besabri ho rahi hoon so the agreement happens here, which i never noticed before .... so I guess our Urdu grammar is slowly changing, and some people would say going down the drain


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## panjabigator

Well, Panjabi respects this agreement, so perhaps this is due to "foreign" influence.  Or could this be another "dahii" masculine/feminine regionalism.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Just to add that someone told me yesterday : *ham be-zubaane nahi.n hai.n*
Meaning: we are not liars (we respect our verbal commitments)....

I think more and more this is a Punjabi influenced feature.

Please, note the precision in the making of this new word ( different from be-zubaan : having no tongue).

This is the mark of living languages. And both Punjabi and Urdu are alive and kicking despite the adversity!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Hi,  I must say I too haven’t heard of  be-râh-rawi, nor be-ustâdâ. Do you have references of their usage? Preferably by well-known writers, poets or a reliable dictionary.  The only thing closest to the former is راہ رو  = wayfarer, traveler (from Farsi – derived  from  راہ رفتن   = to set off / go on a journey).  For the latter, we use   خود آموز self-taught, autodidact  instead.  BTW,    بیصبرا = بیصبر [a colloquialism] (= impatient) is used quite often.  Other words of this pattern are: بیپروا    = careless, heedless, negligent; بیوفا  =  faithless, perfidious, treacherous. All perfectly ‘respectable’ words.   Regarding the other words, all three of the following are used, sometimes together, with the meanings shown:  بیغیرت  = shameless, immodest, wanton;  بیحیا = shameless, immodest, impudent, brazen;  بیشرم  = immoral, shameless, immodest, impudent.  ..  and another word of above pattern is  بےتكا



*"kabhii kabhii Mirzaa kii zabaan se yih bhii sunaa gayaa hai kih mujh ko mabda'-i-faiyyaz ke sivaa kisii se talammuz nahiiN hai aur 'Abdu_ssamad maHz ek farzii naam hai.chuuNkih mujh ko log be-ustaadaa kahte the, un kaa muNh band karne ko maiN ne ek farzii ustaad ghaR liyaa hai.*"

*(Yaad-gaar-i-Ghalib p11*)


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Faylasoof,
> 
> I've been doing some research in dictionaries....
> 
> Ferozul Lughat, which is a 'modern' dictionary, defines  *be-raah-rawii* by giving a synonym = *bad-chalnii. *
> 
> I think I have found the key to the origin of this word in older dictionaries. In Farhang-e-Asfiya, you just find *be-raah*, which is given as an 'awaamii' version of* gum-raah*.
> 
> In Noorul-Lughat, you find the expression *be-raah chalnaa*, which is also given as an 'awaamii' expression... *be-raah-rawii* seems to me to be a scholarly refection of this *be-raah chalnaa* expression, in order to brush off its awaami touch....



*Faylasoof SaaHib, you've hit the nail on the head here.

Adding "be-" to "raah-raftan>> raah-rau>>>raah-ravii" does not make sense at all. However, my Kitaabistaan's 20th Century dictionary gives the source of this word to be, "be-raah" which is an adjective. It means "wrong/erring/debauched...". In a way it is similar to "gum-raah" but not the same. In essence, its meaning is "morally corrupt".

So, in verbal terms, "be-raah~ravii" comes from "be-raah raftan". I shall keep a look out for any "scholarly" usage.

On the net, I have seen it in the context of Prophet Lot (PBUH)'s people's practices of homosexuality and the like. So, Cilquiestsnens is right in stating that it has to do with "indecency" and it is used commonly.
*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *Faylasoof SaaHib, you've hit the nail on the head here.
> 
> Adding "be-" to "raah-raftan>> raah-rau>>>raah-ravii" does not make sense at all. However, my Kitaabistaan's 20th Century dictionary gives the source of this word to be, "be-raah" which is an adjective. It means "wrong/erring/debauched...". In a way it is similar to "gum-raah" but not the same. In essence, its meaning is "morally corrupt".
> 
> So, in verbal terms, "be-raah~ravii" comes from "be-raah raftan". I shall keep a look out for any "scholarly" usage.
> 
> On the net, I have seen it in the context of Prophet Lot (PBUH)'s people's practices of homosexuality and the like. So, Cilquiestsnens is right in stating that it has to do with "indecency" and it is used commonly.
> *


 _*be-raah*_ is OK! _*raah ravish*_  etc.is also OK, but the rest ....I too shall start looking in scholarly sources!

On the net yes! Common! But this usage is alien to the Urdu we speak! I  think it may be more recent and perhaps with origins in Pakistan (?). I must say when I was in Pakistan (and that too for quite a while) I didn't hear it from the _urdugoyaan_ there either. But this was a long time ago!


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> *Faylasoof SaaHib, you've hit the nail on the head here.
> *



*Apologies to Cilquiestsuens SaaHib! I meant to write, **"Cilquiestsuens SaaHib**, **you've hit the nail on the head here".*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *"kabhii kabhii Mirzaa kii zabaan se yih bhii sunaa gayaa hai kih mujh ko mabda'-i-faiyyaz ke sivaa kisii se talammuz nahiiN hai aur 'Abdu_ssamad maHz ek farzii naam hai.chuuNkih mujh ko log be-ustaadaa kahte the, un kaa muNh band karne ko maiN ne ek farzii ustaad ghaR liyaa hai.*"
> 
> *(Yaad-gaar-i-Ghalib p11*)


 Mirza Nausha was known for throwing the likes of these around at times just for fun! ... and yes they are colloquialism still! Part of the language though, as I say above.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Mirza Nausha was known for throwing the likes of these around at times just for fun! ... and yes they are colloquialism still! Part of the language though, as I say above.



*Well, this is how you set out your conditions in an earlier post, which are perfectly understandable.

*"Hi,  I must say I too haven’t heard of  be-râh-rawi, nor be-ustâdâ. Do  you have references of their usage? Preferably by well-known writers,  poets or a reliable dictionary."

*I have provided you with a reference which is quoted by a well-known writer AND poet (Altaf Hussain Hali) quoting another well-known writer AND poet (Mirza Ghalib). My source for this piece of information is Ghulam Rasool Mihr, another well-known writer! So, if it is still colloquial, so be it! Would "Kitaabistaan's Twentieth Century Dictionary" by Bashir Ahmed Qureshi count as a "reliable" dictionary. I don't personally know if he comes from Lakhnau, Dehli, Karachi or TobaTek Singh!  He does have "be-raah~ravii" included in his work.
*


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _*be-raah*_ is OK! _*raah ravish*_  etc.is also OK, but the rest ....I too shall start looking in scholarly sources!
> 
> On the net yes! Common! But this usage is alien to the Urdu we speak! I  think it may be more recent and perhaps with origins in Pakistan (?). I must say when I was in Pakistan (and that too for quite a while) I didn't hear it from the _urdugoyaan_ there either. But this was a long time ago!




*Here is an entry from "Dehkhoda". I have highlighted the relevent bits. The shi'r quoted is by Sa'di.*

-  بیراه  رفتن   ؛ بر طریقی  رفتن  که  راه  رشد نیست . خبط. اختباط.عسف . اعتساف . تعسف .  (یادداشت  مؤلف ). التعسف ؛ بر بیراه  رفتن . (مصادر زوزنی ). از راه   خطا رفتن . راه  نامعلوم  در سپردن  :

چندین  چراغ  دارد و بیراه  میرود
بگذار تا بیفتد و بیند سزای  خویش .

*Here is an entry from Steingass.*

 بیراه _bī-rāh,_ A devious path, a by-road; a wanderer, who deviates, errs, or loses the way; astray; unprincipled, dissolute; a courtezan; anger; misdeeds, unbecoming acts;--_bī-rāh shudan,_ To wander, stray, deviate. 

*Looking at both these entries, be-raah~ravii derivation appears quite legitimate.*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Well, this is how you set out your conditions in an earlier post, which are perfectly understandable.
> 
> *"Hi,  I must say I too haven’t heard of  be-râh-rawi,  nor be-ustâdâ. Do  you have references of their usage? Preferably by  well-known writers,  poets or a reliable dictionary."
> 
> *I have provided you with a reference which is quoted  by a well-known writer AND poet (Altaf Hussain Hali) quoting another  well-known writer AND poet (Mirza Ghalib). My source for this piece of  information is Ghulam Rasool Mihr, another well-known writer! So, if it is still colloquial,  so be it! Would "Kitaabistaan's Twentieth Century Dictionary" by Bashir  Ahmed Qureshi count as a "reliable" dictionary. I don't personally know  if he comes from Lakhnau, Dehli, Karachi or TobaTek Singh!  He does have "be-raah~ravii" included in his work.
> *


 Colloquialisms do exist! be-3aqlaa, be-Sabraa, be-fahmaa etc. are thrown  around and that is what they are - colloquialisms! 

All the same - and it is needless to say- I'm great admirerof Ghalib ... and Mir , and Sauda, and  Mushafi and Anis, and Dabeer, and Auj and Ta3ashshuq and 3ishq ..and  ...so on. Some may have been prone to / accepted colloquialisms more than others. We also sometimes use them (!) but we'd go for be-3aql rather than be-3aqlaa.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Here is an entry from "Dehkhoda". I have highlighted the relevent bits. The shi'r quoted is by Sa'di.*
> 
> -  بیراه  رفتن   ؛ بر طریقی  رفتن  که  راه  رشد نیست . خبط. اختباط.عسف . اعتساف . تعسف .  (یادداشت  مؤلف ). التعسف ؛ بر بیراه  رفتن . (مصادر زوزنی ). از راه   خطا رفتن . راه  نامعلوم  در سپردن  :
> 
> چندین  چراغ  دارد و بیراه  میرود
> بگذار تا بیفتد و بیند سزای  خویش .
> 
> *Here is an entry from Steingass.*
> 
> بیراه _bī-rāh,_ A devious path, a by-road; a wanderer, who deviates, errs, or loses the way; astray; unprincipled, dissolute; a courtezan; anger; misdeeds, unbecoming acts;--_bī-rāh shudan,_ To wander, stray, deviate.
> 
> *Looking at both these entries, be-raah~ravii derivation appears quite legitimate.*


  So? Here is what I said:


Faylasoof said:


> _*
> be-raah*_ is OK! _*raah ravish*_  etc.is also OK, but the rest ....I too shall start looking in scholarly sources!
> ...


 I know _*be-raah*_ is used in Urdu! _We_ use it! We use _*be-raahii *_to mean _going on the wrong path / loosing the right path etc._ Now what exactly is the point of construction like _*be-raah~ravii, *_and by that I mean what meaning other than that by _*be-raahii*_ does it convey? Is it really adding anything or just repeating what is already conveyed by _*be-raahii*_? _*raaf raftan *_I know very well is _Farsi_. Of course we can make all sorts of derivations by going back to Farsi, Arabic, Sanskrit, Turkish (!) etc., no doubt,  but  I'm puzzled as to the shade of meaning in _*be-raah~ravii  *_as opposed to _*be-raahii*_.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I know _*be-raah*_ is used in Urdu! _We_ use it! We use _*be-raahii *_to mean _going on the wrong path / loosing the right path etc._ Now what exactly is the point of construction like _*be-raah~ravii, *_and by that I mean what meaning other than that by _*be-raahii*_ does it convey? Is it really adding anything or just repeating what is already conveyed by _*be-raahii*_?
> 
> *I can understand your frustration but there is a difference between "be-raah~ii" [devious-ness] and "be-raah~ravii"[devious-behaviour].
> 
> * _*raaf raftan *_I know very well is _Farsi_. Of course we can make all sorts of derivations by going back to Farsi, Arabic, Sanskrit, Turkish (!) etc., no doubt,  but  I'm puzzled as to the shade of meaning in _*be-raah~ravii  *_as opposed to _*be-raahii*_.
> 
> *But faylasoof SaaHib, this is NOT raah-raftan which is simply "raah lenaa" or simply "to go" whereas "be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa"., i.e raah se be-raah honaa.
> 
> be-raah~ii is the concept
> be-raah~ravii is the pursuit of the concept.
> 
> *


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## Faylasoof

> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> I know *be-raah*   is used in Urdu! _We_ use it! We use *be-raahii *to mean _going   on the wrong path / loosing the right path etc._ Now what exactly is the   point of construction like *be-raah~ravii, *and by that I mean   what meaning other than that by *be-raahii* does it convey? Is it   really adding anything or just repeating what is already conveyed by *be-raahii*?
> 
> *I can understand your frustration but there is   a difference between "be-raah~ii" [devious-ness] and   "be-raah~ravii"[devious-behaviour].
> 
> raaf raftan *I know very well is _Farsi_. Of course we   can make all sorts of derivations by going back to Farsi, Arabic, Sanskrit,   Turkish (!) etc., no doubt, but I'm puzzled as to the shade of meaning in *be-raah~ravii   *as opposed to *be-raahii*.
> 
> *But faylasoof SaaHib, this is NOT raah-raftan   which is simply "raah lenaa" or simply "to go" whereas   "be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa".,   i.e raah se be-raah honaa.
> 
> be-raah~ii is the concept
> be-raah~ravii is the pursuit of the concept.*


 Yes, I know you are talking about _be-raah raftan_ and NOT _raah raftan_! 
 You say:
*"be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa"., i.e raah se be-raah honaa = * *be-raahii*!  

 BTW, it can also be called * gum raahii / gum raah honaa. 
*


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Yes, I know you are talking about _be-raah raftan_ and NOT _raah raftan_!
> You say:
> *"be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa"., i.e raah se be-raah honaa = * *be-raahii*!
> 
> BTW, it can also be called * gum raahii / gum raah honaa.
> *



*Now all that is left to "rest Cilquiestsuens SaaHib's case" is to find some "colloquial" usage of "be-raah~ravii" by a well known poet or within the pages of a reputable dictionary!!

You never did come back regarding whether Bashir Ahmed Qureshi's dictionary is considered to be of good repute or not. Do you know anything about his background. I personally like it very much.
*


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> *Now all that is left to "rest Cilquiestsuens SaaHib's case" is to find some "colloquial" usage of "be-raah~ravii" by a well known poet or within the pages of a reputable dictionary!!
> 
> You never did come back regarding whether Bashir Ahmed Qureshi's dictionary is considered to be of good repute or not. Do you know anything about his background. I personally like it very much.
> *



*The following is a direct quote from Sardar Ja'fari, a well-known Urdu poet, contained within the pages of his preface to  Urdu/Devanagri Diivaab-i-Ghalib*.

*chand vaaqi'aat Ghalib kii zindagii meN bahut aham haiN. bachpan kii yatiimii, Dihlii kaa qiyaam aur Kalkatte kaa safar. aur un kaa asar us kii shaKhsiyyat aur shaa'irii par baRaa gahraa hai. us kii ibtidaa'ii zindagii aur shaa'irii kii be-raah~ravii mash_huur hai. jo bachchah paaNch baras kii 'umr meN baap kii shafqat se maHruum ho gayaa ho aur jise ko'ii ma'quul tarbiyyat nah milii ho, vuh apnii zihaanat aur tabii'at hii ke zor par aage baRh saktaa thaa aur us meN be-raah~ravii baRii aham manzil hai jahaaN ThokareN ustaad kaa kaam kartii haiN....

I hope this should wrap up this matter now!
*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> The following is a direct quote from Sardar Ja'fari, a well-known Urdu poet, contained within the pages of his preface to  Urdu/Devanagri Diivaab-i-Ghalib*.
> 
> *chand vaaqi'aat Ghalib kii zindagii meN bahut aham haiN. bachpan kii yatiimii, Dihlii kaa qiyaam aur Kalkatte kaa safar. aur un kaa asar us kii shaKhsiyyat aur shaa'irii par baRaa gahraa hai. us kii ibtidaa'ii zindagii aur shaa'irii kii be-raah~ravii mash_huur hai. jo bachchah paaNch baras kii 'umr meN baap kii shafqat se maHruum ho gayaa ho aur jise ko'ii ma'quul tarbiyyat nah milii ho, vuh apnii zihaanat aur tabii'at hii ke zor par aage baRh saktaa thaa aur us meN be-raah~ravii baRii aham manzil hai jahaaN ThokareN ustaad kaa kaam kartii haiN....
> 
> I hope this should wrap up this matter now!
> *



 _janaab_ QP _SaHeb_, for yours truly the matter was wrapped up a long time ago! 

If people wish to use _be-raah rawii_ then I’m not going to dictate to them not to! However, I will ask them if they have ever heard of words like كجروی  *kajravii* – a well established term ( since at least the 17th century) in the Urdu language and means: To deviate from the right path, go along / take the wrong path; to err etc.)
(غلط راستے پر چلناکج راہی،،،صحیح راہ سے بھٹكناغلط راہ پر چلنا،)


بفكر دنیوی تعبیر اخروی كیسی
یہ راہ راست میں ذہنوں كی كجروی كیسی
خدا كی راہ میں شاہی و خسروی  كیسی
كہو كہ رہبر دین خدا كہیں اس كو

(تخمیس سلام مرزا اسد اللّہ خاں *غالب* از محمد امیر امام* حُرّ*)

*befikr-e-dunyawii ta3biir-e-uxrawii kaisii*
*yeh raah-e-raast meiN ZehnoN kii kajrawii kaisii*
*xudaa kii raah meiN shaahii o xusrawii kaisii*
 *kaho keh rahbar-e-diine-e-xudaa kaheiN usko*

(_taxmiis_ on the _salaam_ [سلام اسے كہ اگر بادشاہ كہیں اس كو] of _Ghalib_ by _Hurr. Lines in BLUE are from Mirza Nausha_)


Or, for that matter if they have ever heard of: کج راہی* kaj raahii*, غلط اندیشی* ghalaT andeshii *,  خام خیالی* xaam xayaalii*.... and even کَج رائی* kaj raa'ii* etc. All well established in Urdu and synonymous / near synonyms with كجروی* kaj ravii*.


اب کہاں دور مسیحائی کسے آواز دوں
اُف مقدّر کی یہ کج رائی کسے آواز دوں


*ab kahaaN daur-e-masiiHaa’ii kise aawaaz deN*
*uf muqaddar kii yeh kaj raa’ii kise aawaaz deN*


… and from yours truly,

غلط اندیشی و کج راہی گر ہوں تو بیراہروی كیسی
ہدایت اگر خرد دے تو پھربیراہی و كجروی كیسی

*ghalaT andeshii o kaj raahii gar hoN to be raah rawii kaisii*
 _*hidaayat agar xirad de to phir be raahii o kajrawii kaisii*_


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _janaab_ QP _SaHeb_, for yours truly the matter was wrapped up a long time ago!
> 
> If people wish to use _be-raah rawii_ then I’m not going to dictate to them not to! However, I will ask them if they have ever heard of words like كجروی  *kajravii* – a well established term ( since at least the 17th century) in the Urdu language and means: To deviate from the right path, go along / take the wrong path; to err etc.)
> (غلط راستے پر چلناکج راہی،،،صحیح راہ سے بھٹكناغلط راہ پر چلنا،)
> 
> 
> بفكر دنیوی تعبیر اخروی كیسی
> یہ راہ راست میں ذہنوں كی كجروی كیسی
> خدا كی راہ میں شاہی و خسروی  كیسی
> كہو كہ رہبر دین خدا كہیں اس كو
> 
> (تخمیس سلام مرزا اسد اللّہ خاں *غالب* از محمد امیر امام* حُرّ*)
> 
> *befikr-e-dunyawii ta3biir-e-uxrawii kaisii*
> *yeh raah-e-raast meiN ZehnoN kii kajrawii kaisii*
> *xudaa kii raah meiN shaahii o xusrawii kaisii*
> *kaho keh rahbar-e-diine-e-xudaa kaheiN usko*
> 
> (_taxmiis_ on the _salaam_ [سلام اسے كہ اگر بادشاہ كہیں اس كو] of _Ghalib_ by _Hurr. Lines in BLUE are from Mirza Nausha_)
> 
> 
> Or, for that matter if they have ever heard of: کج راہی* kaj raahii*, غلط اندیشی* ghalaT andeshii *,  خام خیالی* xaam xayaalii*.... and even کَج رائی* kaj raa'ii* etc. All well established in Urdu and synonymous / near synonyms with كجروی* kaj ravii*.
> 
> 
> اب کہاں دور مسیحائی کسے آواز دوں
> اُف مقدّر کی یہ کج رائی کسے آواز دوں
> 
> 
> *ab kahaaN daur-e-masiiHaa’ii kise aawaaz deN*
> *uf muqaddar kii yeh kaj raa’ii kise aawaaz deN*
> 
> 
> … and from yours truly,
> 
> غلط اندیشی و کج راہی گر ہوں تو بیراہروی كیسی
> ہدایت اگر خرد دے تو پھربیراہی و كجروی كیسی
> 
> *ghalaT andeshii o kaj raahii gar hoN to be raah rawii kaisii*
> _*hidaayat agar xirad de to phir be raahii o kajrawii kaisii*_



*janaab-i-Faylasoof SaaHib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat.

You posed a very straight forward question with a preference [but not an insistence] that this particular usage be by well-known writers, poets or a reliable dictionary. There were no further pre-conditions attached. I quote..

*Do you have references of their usage? Preferably by well-known writers, poets or a reliable dictionary.
*
I am sure  you would agree that I have not only answered your question but have bettered your request by providing examples by well known writers/poets (Maulana Altaf Hussain Hali quoting Ghalib and Sardar Ja'fari) as well as a reputable dictionary. This of course applies both to "be-ustaadaa" and "be-raah~ravii". 

jaate jaate ek shi'r ho jaa'e..

**ham be-raah~ravoN kaa kyaa 
 saath kisii ke ho leN ge *

*Faraz*


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## Qureshpor

*Upon my request **in an Urdu poetry forum **for knowledge of "be-raah~ravii" usage , a friend has posted the following rubaa'ii by AuHadi.

*گر مرد رهی، تو چند بیراه روی؟    

اندر پی این منصب و این جاه روی؟

تا کی ز برای زر و سیم دنیا 

 بر اسب نشینی، به در شاه روی؟


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> janaab-i-Faylasoof SaaHib, aadaab-o-tasliimaat.
> 
> You posed a very straight forward question with a preference [but not an   insistence] that this particular usage be by well-known writers, poets   or a reliable dictionary. There were no further pre-conditions  attached.  I quote..
> 
> *Do you have references of their usage? Preferably by well-known writers, poets or a reliable dictionary.
> *
> I am sure  you would agree that I have not only answered your question   but have bettered your request by providing examples by well known   writers/poets (Maulana Altaf Hussain Hali quoting Ghalib and Sardar   Ja'fari) as well as a reputable dictionary. This of course applies both to "be-ustaadaa" and "be-raah~ravii".
> 
> jaate jaate ek shi'r ho jaa'e..
> 
> **ham be-raah~ravoN kaa kyaa
> saath kisii ke ho leN ge *
> 
> *Faraz*


 _tasliimat janab-e-waalaa QP Saheb!

aap ko maine bahut diqqat dii, magar tabaadila-e-xayaal be Hadd mufiid thaabit hua!_


I agree that some (in this case one) reputable lexicon may mention *be raah ravii*,  but we need to keep in mind that it is only one and many othrer  lexicons of great repute  do not! The suggestion is that we are dealing  with a neologism here which of course discounts Platts,  farhang-e-aasafiyah, nuur-ul-lughaat etc.) but  muhazzab-ul-lughaat ( a  recent dictionary of literary Urdu from Lucknow) doesn't have it. Nor  does my 21st Century Urdu Dictionary (Delhi) or nasiim-ul-lughaat  (Pakistan). But one can always say they all need to be updated! That is  fine!

The point is what is the meaning being conveyed by *be raah ravii *that the earlier words like *kaj ravii*, *kaj raahii*, *ghalaT andeshii* etc. do not encompass.

 In other words, how does the meaning change if for example we substitute *kaj ravii* / *kaj raahii* / *ghalaT andeshii* for *be raah ravii* in the above example you present:



QURESHPOR said:


> *chand vaaqi'aat Ghalib kii zindagii meN bahut aham   haiN. bachpan kii yatiimii, Dihlii kaa qiyaam aur Kalkatte kaa safar.   aur un kaa asar us kii shaKhsiyyat aur shaa'irii par baRaa gahraa hai.   us kii ibtidaa'ii zindagii aur shaa'irii kii be-raah~ravii mash_huur   hai. jo bachchah paaNch baras kii 'umr meN baap kii shafqat se maHruum   ho gayaa ho aur jise ko'ii ma'quul tarbiyyat nah milii ho, vuh apnii   zihaanat aur tabii'at hii ke zor par aage baRh saktaa thaa aur us meN be-raah~ravii baRii aham manzil hai jahaaN ThokareN ustaad kaa kaam kartii haiN....
> 
> *



*….shaa'irii par baRaa gahraa hai. us kii ibtidaa'ii zindagii aur shaa'irii kii **kaj ravii* / *kaj raahii* / *ghalaT andeshii* *mash_huur  hai. jo bachchah paaNch baras kii 'umr meN baap kii shafqat se maHruum  ho gayaa ho aur jise ko'ii ma'quul tarbiyyat nah milii ho, vuh apnii  zihaanat aur tabii'at hii ke zor par aage baRh saktaa thaa aur us meN kaj ravii* / *kaj raahii* / *ghalaT andeshii* *baRii aham manzil hai jahaaN*

 Simialarly in Faraz’s poetry:

*ham * *be raaahoN** kaa kyaa 
saath kisii ke ho leN ge*

*ham * *kajravoN** kaa kyaa 
saath kisii ke ho leN ge*

*ham * *ghalaT andeshoN** kaa kyaa 
saath kisii ke ho leN ge*

 etc.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> In other words, how does the meaning change if for example we substitute *kaj ravii* / *kaj raahii* / *ghalaT andeshii* for *be raah ravii* in the above example you present:



*muHtaramii-o-mukarramii Faylasoof SaaHib.

The question you raise above, IMHO, is irrelevant to your original request and if I were to respond to this, it might result in "chat". In all honesty, I feel somewhat strangulated in this maHfil and at times I do feel like saying..

"baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii"

Very briefly, I do understand and respect your point. But, one could easily say , "Why bother with daraKhat and shajar when we have a perfectly good word in the form of "peR"?" One could argue that "be-raah~ravii" and "kaj~ravii" are not exact equivalents. Shall we agree to disagree, Sir?
*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> muHtaramii-o-mukarramii Faylasoof SaaHib.
> 
> The question you raise above, IMHO, is irrelevant to your original request and if I were to respond to this, it might result in "chat". In all honesty, I feel somewhat strangulated in this maHfil and at times I do feel like saying..
> 
> "baat karnii mujhe mushkil kabhii aisii to nah thii"
> 
> Very briefly, I do understand and respect your point. But, one could easily say , "Why bother with daraKhat and shajar when we have a perfectly good word in the form of "peR"?" One could argue that "be-raah~ravii" and "kaj~ravii" are not exact equivalents. Shall we agree to disagree, Sir?
> *



jaanaab-e-waalaa,

I really do not wish to press you on this but my query is genuine! I haven't really grasped the difference between this neologism and the more established words. I have my own understanding of the need to go for this word but I shall keep that opnion to myself. BTW, I'm touch with some people in both Karachi and Lucknow concerning the usage of _*be raah ravii*_ as opposed to _*kaj ravii / kaj raahii *_*/ ghalaT andeshii *etc. etc.

Of course you shouldn't feel strangulated because we are only carrying on an academic discourse - and please feel free to comment, on the topic of course! 

I did wonder about this:

*But faylasoof SaaHib, this is NOT raah-raftan which is simply "raah lenaa" or simply "to go" whereas "be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa"., i.e raah se be-raah honaa.

be-raah~ii is the concept
be-raah~ravii is the pursuit of the concept.*
*From your post# 34 above. *

But please don't bother replying because, yes we can agree to disagree and I do disagree! Let us continue with other topics!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> jaanaab-e-waalaa,
> 
> I really do not wish to press you on this but my query is genuine! I haven't really grasped the difference between this neologism and the more established words. I have my own understanding of the need to go for this word but I shall keep that opnion to myself. BTW, I'm touch with some people in both Karachi and Lucknow concerning the usage of _*be raah ravii*_ as opposed to _*kaj ravii / kaj raahii *_*/ ghalaT andeshii *etc. etc.
> 
> Of course you shouldn't feel strangulated because we are only carrying on an academic discourse - and please feel free to comment, on the topic of course!
> 
> I did wonder about this:
> 
> *But faylasoof SaaHib, this is NOT raah-raftan which is simply "raah lenaa" or simply "to go" whereas "be-raah raftan" is "Ghalat raastah iKhtiyaar karnaa"., i.e raah se be-raah honaa.
> 
> be-raah~ii is the concept
> be-raah~ravii is the pursuit of the concept.*
> *From your post# 34 above. *
> 
> But please don't bother replying because, yes we can agree to disagree and I do disagree! Let us continue with other topics!



*Insha Allah, I shall come back and respond to your request once I have formulated something coherent. If I don't, it is only because of my shortcomings and not because of anything inherently deficient in this word.  Having said all this, I still feel that you had originally only requested citings of the usage of this word and had not sought justification for its need to exist.
*


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Salam,
> 
> 
> A few words I know in Urdu are made on the above pattern....
> 
> Let me give you examples:
> 
> *Be-sabrâ* - impatient
> 
> *Be-ustâdâ* - having learnt with no master (in French we'd say something like : autodidacte, which sounds much more positive than in Urdu)
> 
> *Nâ-shukrâ* - ungrateful (is the most common one)
> 
> These words are used as adjectives (possibly nominalized?). However I have never heard / seen them in the feminine form... Maybe because these adjectives have a corresponding noun, much more commonly used, by the way: *be-sabrî, be-ustâdî, nâshukrî*....
> 
> My questions : are the above adjectives invariable ??????
> 
> Do you know other words made on the same pattern ????



_*I believe these words are variable. I can not say if this kind of formation has had Punjabi influence because we know that Ghalib himself used the word, "be-ustaadaa" (One without a teacher).

tuu baRaa be-fikraa hai
tum baRe be-fikre ho
tuu baRii be-fikrii hai
tum baRii be-fikrii ho

You are very care-free. 

tuu ziyaadah be-Khabraa nah ban!
tum ziyaadah be-Khabre nah bano
tuu ziyaadah be-Khabrii nah ban
tum ziyaadah be-Khabrii nah bano

Don't pretend to be unaware!

Note also "shahr-Khabraa" (One who could tell you all the scandals of the town!)

Similarly for "be-tukkaa" (unreliable person)
                      "be-DhaNgaa" (artless)
                      "be-sabraa" (impatient)
                      "be-qadraa" (ungreatful)
                       "be-iHtiyaataa" (careless)
                        "be-i'tibaaraa" (unreliable)
                        "be-Dhabaa" (awkward)
                         "be-dimaaGhaa" (senseless)
                      "be-mausmaa" (out of season)

e.g. be-mausamaa phal
        be-mausamii sabziyaaN

be-ustaadaa shaa'ir = ustaad nah rakhne vaalaa shaa'ir

be-ustaadii shaa'irah=ustaad nah rakhne vaalii shaa'irah

Please Note

be-'aqlaa
be-iimaanaa
be-sharmaa
be-Ghairataa

All these, at least in Punjabi context, are not linked to the above. On the contrary, the added  alif is the "vocative case" alif.  The feminine form would have the -aa change to -e.

*_


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## Qureshpor

QURESHPOR said:


> _*I believe these words are variable. I can not say if this kind of formation has had Punjabi influence because we know that Ghalib himself used the word, "be-ustaadaa" (One without a teacher).
> 
> tuu baRaa be-fikraa hai
> tum baRe be-fikre ho
> tuu baRii be-fikrii hai
> tum baRii be-fikrii ho
> 
> You are very care-free.
> 
> tuu ziyaadah be-Khabraa nah ban!
> tum ziyaadah be-Khabre nah bano
> tuu ziyaadah be-Khabrii nah ban
> tum ziyaadah be-Khabrii nah bano
> 
> Don't pretend to be unaware!
> 
> Note also "shahr-Khabraa" (One who could tell you all the scandals of the town!)
> 
> Similarly for "be-tukkaa" (unreliable person)
> "be-DhaNgaa" (artless)
> "be-sabraa" (impatient)
> "be-qadraa" (ungreatful)
> "be-iHtiyaataa" (careless)
> "be-i'tibaaraa" (unreliable)
> "be-Dhabaa" (awkward)
> "be-dimaaGhaa" (senseless)
> "be-mausmaa" (out of season)
> 
> e.g. be-mausamaa phal
> be-mausamii sabziyaaN
> 
> be-ustaadaa shaa'ir = ustaad nah rakhne vaalaa shaa'ir
> 
> be-ustaadii shaa'irah=ustaad nah rakhne vaalii shaa'irah
> 
> *_



*Another such word that comes to mind is possibly exclusive to Punjabi, "bad-royaa", "ro" being the older pronunciation of "ruu" (face) and meaning "bad-suurat" or "bad-shaklaa".*


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