# Urdu: dabistaan



## Wolverine9

Does it mean school as in "a place of learning," or is it used in a different sense?


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## Qureshpor

Wolverine9 SaaHib/ah, words sometimes tend to become "compartmentalized" and this happens in Urdu and probably in other languages too. I don't know if this is a good thing or not. In my school days, a school was a "madrasah" (which you will know means "school" in Arabic) as well as "skuul", the latter completely displacing it eventually. "maktab" is another word for "school" but it has come to mean a school, as in "maktab-i-fikr" (a school of thought).

dabistaan is apparently composed of Arabic and Persian elements (adab + istaan). The Delhi School of Urdu and the Lucknow School of Urdu are known as "dabistaan-i-dihlii" and "dabistaan-i-lakhnauu". 

Here is the word being used by our Mirza Ghalib.

maiN chaman meN kyaa gayaa goyaa dabistaaN khul gayaa
bulbuleN sun kar mire naale Ghazal-xvaaN ho ga'iiN

Another shi3r in which dabistaaN is a school where one goes to study, once again by Ghalib.

fanaa ta3liim-i-dard-i-be-xudii huuN us zamaane se
kih majnuuN laam alif likhtaa thaa diivaar-i-dabistaaN par


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## marrish

I was of the impression that ''dabistaan'' was used exclusively to depict a "school of thought''. Thank you QP SaaHib for the informative post, I had no idea Ghalib used this word for a school as a building.

Platts suggests dabiir+istaan but I am tending to go with your interpretation.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> I was of the impression that ''dabistaan'' was used exclusively to depict a "school of thought''. Thank you QP SaaHib for the informative post, I had no idea Ghalib used this word for a school as a building.
> 
> Platts suggests dabiir+istaan but I am tending to go with your interpretation.
> 
> Edit: QP SaaHib, which post or posts are of relevance from the link you have provided? It is a lengthy discussion which requires time and attention, but it would be nice if you tell us where we should look for a quick reference.


 marrish SaaHib, as you know by now, both _dabistaan_ and _dabiiristaan_ can mean physical enitities. We borrowed the terms from Persian of course and in earlier times in various parts of the sub-continent too they were used to refer to lower and higher school.
 When I visited Iran I learnt that a دبستان _dabistaan_ was a primary school while a دبیرستان _dabiiristaan_ was a secondary school, as in دبیرستان علامه طباطبایی _dabiiristaan-e-3allamah TabaaTbaa'ii_ = Allamah Tabatabai Secondary / High School

BTW, there is a discussion on the _dabistaanhaa-e-dilli o lakhnau _here, page 25 onwards.This usage of _dabistaaan_ is I think what you had in mind.


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## Faylasoof

Wolverine9 said:


> Does it mean school as in "a place of learning," or is it used in a different sense?


 As I mention above, in earlier times, and in some places, it actually meant a physical entity. Both _dabistaan _and _dabiiristaan_ were borrowed from Persian where the meanings are:

   Steingass
 دبستان dabistān (either contraction of dabīristān or abbreviation of adabistān), A school ...
 Hayyim:
 دبیرستان dabīristān, dibīristān, A school (for writing); a record office. 

The current usages in Persian for _dabistaan_  and _dabiiristaan_ respectively are primary school and secondary / high school, But in Urdu they are now abstract nouns!


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## Wolverine9

Thanks for clarifying, everyone.   The difference in usage between Urdu and Persian is interesting.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, as you know by now, both _dabistaan_ and _dabiiristaan_ can mean physical enitities. We borrowed the terms from Persian of course and in earlier times in various parts of the sub-continent too they were used to refer to lower and higher school.
> When I visited Iran I learnt that a دبستان _dabistaan_ was a primary school while a دبیرستان _dabiiristaan_ was a secondary school, as in دبیرستان علامه طباطبایی _dabiiristaan-e-3allamah TabaaTbaa'ii_ = Allamah Tabatabai Secondary / High School
> 
> *BTW, there is a discussion on the dabistaanhaa-e-dilli o lakhnau here, page 25 onwards.This usage of dabistaaan is I think what you had in mind.*


Thank you for the further explanation. *Yes, it is this usage I was talking of. A couple of months earlier you recommended silsilah-e-Gham and I have already read this book.*


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## fdb

Faylasoof said:


> The current usages in Persian for _dabistaan_  and _dabiiristaan_ respectively are primary school and secondary / high school



Correct, that is how these words are used in modern Iran. But you should note that this usage is not older than the time of Reza Shah, when they were introduced as "Aryanised" substitutes for _madrasa_.


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## Aryamp

fdb said:


> Correct, that is how these words are used in modern Iran. But you should note that this usage is not older than the time of Reza Shah, when they were introduced as "Aryanised" substitutes for _madrasa_.



*دبیرستان*

عقل را خواهی که ناگه در عقیلت نفکند
گوش گیرش در دبیرستان الرحمان درآر.
سنائی 

کتاب عین مسلم تراست از همه قوم 
همه صفات نبشتند در دبیرستان .
امیر معزی .



حجتی بپذیر برهانی ز من زیرا که نیست 
آن دبیرستان کلی را جز این جزوی گدا.
ناصرخسرو.


در دبیرستان خرسندی نوآموزی هنوز
کودکی کن دم مزن چون مهرداری بر زبان .

خاقانی 



*دبستان*
بهر برزن اندر دبستان بدی 
همان جای آتش پرستان بدی .
فردوسی 


دفتر به دبستان بود و نقل ببازار
وین نرد بجایی که خرابات خرابست .
منوچهری 


حسرت نکند کودک را سود به پیری 
هرگه که به خردی بگریزد ز دبستان .
ناصرخسرو.


ای به شبستان ملک با تو ظفر خاصگی 
وی به دبستان علم با تو خرد درسخوان .
خاقانی .


پیران به بر حروف زلفت 
ابجدخوانان این دبستان .
عطار


These words are very old words and they're not "aryanized" version of "madrese" no ,in fact they're probably older than the usage of "madrese" , many people unjustly accuse "Reza Shah" of trying to "aryanize" Iran which is totally untrue.

The above examples are a few instances of the usage of these words but did they always mean "highschool" and "primary school" ? of course not because the concept of a modern educational system where students attend a few years of "primary school" before going to "highschool" and then later "university" is a fairly new concept! RezaShah tried to modernize Iran's educational system following the western model and so these different stages of school needed a proper name hence "madrese" means "school" in general while other synonymous words are used for different types of "madrese" (not a substitute for it!)


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## fdb

I think the participants in this forum do understand that I am not denying that these are old words. I am merely pointing out that their current usage is not old.


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## Aryamp

fdb said:
			
		

> Correct, that is how these words are used in modern Iran. But you should note that this usage is not older than the time of Reza Shah, when they were introduced as "Aryanised" substitutes for _madrasa_



I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, I thought you were implying that these words were used as a substitute for the word "madrese" while their original meaning was different and all this was done merely because of a political agenda. 

I gave some examples of usage to ilustrate the fact that they always had the meaning of 'school' as in a place of learning. 
However in current usage they've lost the general meaning of school while "madrese" means "school" in general , so in fact "madrese" is the substitute for these words not the other way around.

You're right their current usage is new , but you're wrong in assuming it's to do with "Aryanization" . The fact is that "high school and primary school" are relatively new concepts. Just like "computer" is not a recent term however its current usuage is quite recent.


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## Wolverine9

Hayyim agrees with fdb's assessment:

مدرسه _(madrasah)_ Noun _A_ A school; a college; a university. [Pl. = مدارس _madares_].

*مدرسۀ ابتدائی A primary (or elementary) school. [Recently replaced by دبستان dabestan].   مدرسۀ متوسطه A secondary school. A grammar school. [Recently replaced by دبیرستان dabeerestan]*.   مدرسۀ عالی A high school. Also, a college.   مدرسۀ دارالمعلمین A normal  school. [Recently replaced by دانش سرا _danesh-sara_].   مدرسۀ دار الفنون A university, A polytechnic school. [Recently replaced by دانشگاه _daneshgah_].   مدرسۀ طب A school of medicine.   مدرسۀ حقوق A law-school.   مدرسۀ صنعتی A school of arts (and manufactures); an industrial school. [Recently replaced by هنرستان _honarestan_].   مدرسۀ نظام A military school.   (به) مدرسه رفتن To go to school.     (به) مدرسه فرستادن مدرسه کردن Transitive verb  To send to school.      مدرسۀ پسران (یا ذکور) A boys' school.   مدرسۀ دختران (یا اناث) A girls' school.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> Correct, that is how these words are used in modern Iran. But you should note that this usage is not older than the time of Reza Shah, when they were introduced as "Aryanised" substitutes for _madrasa_.


I'm afraid this is not the complete story. See following text from an article written in ~1907 (cited here, reference #7):
"... آیا مکتب­خانه را مدرسه گفتن کفر است و یا *دبستان *که زبان آبا و اجداد ماهاست صحیح نیست..." 

I agree on that the state (after WWII) had probably encouraged using _dabstaan _instead of "elementary school" (not "school" as a building) for both its Persian root and shorter length. However, it seems that the idea of _dabestaan _as "elementary school" had already existed in Qajar period, probably for distinguishing between the traditional and modern education as Aryamp suggested (though, from the text above, a sense of "Persian awareness" is imaginable).


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## Qureshpor

I think it would be fair to say that fdb's comment in # Post 11 does imply that "dabistaan" came into existence after Reza Shah Pahlavi's regime. He has of course clarified his position since. Both Aryamp and Treaty make very valid points. There is  bound to be a sentiment amongst certain sections of the society to go back to those words that have their basis in Persian itself as opposed to another language.


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## Aryamp

Wolverine9 said:


> Hayyim agrees with fdb's assessment:
> 
> مدرسه _(madrasah)_ Noun _A_ A school; a college; a university. [Pl. = مدارس _madares_].
> 
> *مدرسۀ ابتدائی A primary (or elementary) school. [Recently replaced by دبستان dabestan]. مدرسۀ متوسطه A secondary school. A grammar school. [Recently replaced by دبیرستان dabeerestan]*. مدرسۀ



Hayyim doesn't say these are substitutes for مدرسه .  
دبیرستان is used instead of مدرسه *متوسطه *just like دانش سرا is a replacement forمدرسه *دارالمعلمین*.  
Clearly  phrases like مدرسه دارالمعلمین or مدرسه دارالفنون  are not much older than their counterparts when they mean "college"  or "university" but  when a new concept is introduced and reforms take place,of course there are at first so many problems and shortcomings, these must be amended later.

It's easy to spot the problem with a clumsy phrase like مدرسه دارالمعلمین  not only it's too long with arabic grammar, it also has a funny meaning : the school of the house of the teachers!  Also in مدرسه متوسطه the problematic part is متوسطـه not مدرسه




			
				Treaty said:
			
		

> I'm afraid this is not the complete story. See following text from an article written in ~1907 (cited here, reference #7):
> "... آیا مکتب&shy;خانه را مدرسه گفتن کفر است و یا *دبستان *که زبان آبا و اجداد ماهاست صحیح نیست..."
> 
> I agree on that the state (after WWII) had probably encouraged using _dabstaan _instead of "elementary school" (not "school" as a building) for both its Persian root and shorter length. However, it seems that the idea of _dabestaan _had already existed in Qajar period, probably for distinguishing between the traditional and modern education as Aryamp suggested (though, from the text above, a sense of "Persian awareness" is imaginable).




That's a very interesting example, and I would say it's not merely "Persian awareness" but social awareness in general. I mean from that phrase it's obvious the issue is not "persian" vs "non-persian"   because مدرسه is obviously an arabic word.  The main issue is a clash between old and new.  مکتب خانه  versus مدرسه and دبستان . 
A part of this social awareness is proper usage of language, to understand using more and more intricate arabic terms is not a sign of being educated (that was the trend back then, the modern parallel is how some people think using english words in their speech makes them sound educated)

The scope of this awareness goes far beyond racial issues and policies of RezaShah , it starts with Constitutional Revolution and continues on even after Islamic Revolution.


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## Sheikh_14

To summarize this is what I feel has happened. Do correct if you feel something is amiss and give a thumbs up to settle matters entirely. Secondly, try to respond where your expertise would iron out queries.

1.Madrasah was used in place of school in all three languages I.e. Arabic, Urdu and Persian. Today it remains to be used in the Arab world and Iran but in Urdu denotes a religious academy/centre. 
2.Interestingly in Iranian Persian Maktab instead has taken on this definition. Maktab in Urdu continues to be of use as an indigenous alternative to Skuul but in the high register as in tifl e maktab- to denote school-child.
3.Maktab does not always mean school of thought and when it does is suffixed with e fikr to make matters clear if not always than majoritarily. 
4.Dabistaan on the other hand means school of thought in Urdu but in Iran has come to mean a school too. There has been a renaissance in this regard in Iranian Persian. The concern there was similar to the one we have with regards to Anglicization. What isn't clear is if Persian uses this term for school of thought too and if it doesn't than what does it use here?
5. Literary Urdu aside where deviations' are a modus operandi is dabistaan a viable alternative to skuul from time to time? Would you prefer maktab in this regard due to increased clarity? My humble suggestion would be to allow madrasah to retain its newly designated definition in Urdu as technical clarity enriches languages ambiguity here perplexes matters. QP Saahib's comment that in his school days, (don't know how far back that was but a decade time frame would be helpful)madrasah was used alongside skuul is indeed insightful.


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## marrish

Sheikh_14 said:


> 5. Literary Urdu aside where deviations' are a modus operandi is dabistaan a viable alternative to skuul from time to time? Would you prefer maktab in this regard due to increased clarity? My humble suggestion would be to allow madrasah to retain its newly designated definition in Urdu as technical clarity enriches languages ambiguity here perplexes matters. QP Saahib's comment that in his school days, (don't know how far back that was but a decade time frame would be helpful)madrasah was used alongside skuul is indeed insightful.


What do you mean by 'deviations are a modus operandi in literary Urdu'? I can't quite understand what you mean by this.

'_dabistaan_' can be used in the meaning of school but not in the meaning of the building and not as an institution of primary or secundary education. For example, only today I was reading about a poetry event called '_mushaa3irah_' where people (disciples you can say) of a certain Abr of India were to be represented so it was referred to as _dabistaan-e-abr_.

Even yours sincerely is not familiar with _dabistaan_ for a school (building) and would turn a blank face so it is better to forget it. iskuul and skuul are THE words to use and have been used so since two centuries. This is the usage of Urdu or as we call it '_roz-marrah_' - and it would violate its basics if one went on to call a school _dabistaan_. It is the same situation as with a simple '_paanii piijiye_' - please have some water. _aab piijiye_ cannot be said but if I say that a certain gentleman _aab aab ho ga'e_ (he become extremely ashamed) it can be changed to _wuh paanii paanii ho ga'e _(although this is less acceptable) but _aab-diidah ho gayaa _cannot be _paanii diidah ho gayaa_.

_madrasah_ has always served for a school in Urdu and will continue to do so lest the English connotations prevail. Please search for references in other threads for it.


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> _madrasah_ has always served for a school in Urdu and will continue to do so lest the English connotations prevail. Please search for references in other threads for it.



No, not always: it usually means a religious academy, as Sheikh jii rightly pointed out, in many, if not most, Urdu sections of society.


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## Qureshpor

^ Probably best to stay with dabistaan in this thread. A discussion on what a "madrasah" is contained within this thread, post 19 onwards.http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2381093&highlight=madrasah


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> No, not always: it usually means a religious academy, as Sheikh jii rightly pointed out, in many, if not most, Urdu sections of society.


You are partly right, there are many people who use and understand madrasah to be an Islamic school but it doesn't change anything to my assertion that it's been 'a school' and continues to be used in this basic sense. Even for the Wikipedia community _madrasah_ is a school and _islaamii madrasah_ is a religious (Islamic) school.

http://ur.wikipedia.org/wiki/مدرسہ
(school) *مدرسہ* یا *مکت* 
ایک ایسے ادارہ کو کہتے ہیں جہاں طالب علم تعلیم حاصل کرنے جاتے ہیں۔ مدرسہ میں طلبہ و طالبات کو مختلف جماعتوں میں تعلیم دی جاتی ہے۔ ابتدئی مدرسہ میں عموما جماعت پنجم اور اعلی مدرسہ میں عموما جماعتدہم تک تعلیم دی جاتی ہے۔​_madrasah yaa maktab (school) ek aise idaarah ko kahte haiN jahaaN taalib-e-3ilm ta3liim Haasil karne jaate haiN. madrasah meN tulabah-o-taalibaat ko muxtalif jamaa3atoN meN ta3liim dii jaatii hae. ibtidaa'ii madrasah meN 3umuuman jamaa3at-e-panjum aur a3laa madrasah meN 3umuuman jamaa3at-e-dahum tak ta3liim dii jaatii hae._


You can change the language to see that this article is about school (institution).

[I have just seen QP's advice but I've already posted]


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## littlepond

marrish said:


> ... and _islaamii madrasah_ is a religious (Islamic) school.



According to Qureshpor jii, what you say is "outrageously untrue." ( post 14 in http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2381093 )


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## Sheikh_14

littlepond said:


> No, not always: it usually means a religious academy, as Sheikh jii rightif y pointed out, in many, if not most, Urdu sections of society.



Nowadays always! In fact more often than not you would get blank stares from people of 35 and below if by madaaris you mean schools and not religious academies. If one says they send their kids to a madrasah it means they have shunned Western Education for the religious kind. Age truly does matter here which is why I requested that a decades' time-frame be given to when matters were different. Nevertheless, that isn't necessary if anyone does not feel comfortable in that regard.


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## mundiya

littlepond said:


> No, not always: it usually means a religious academy, as Sheikh jii rightly pointed out, in many, if not most, Urdu sections of society.



True, I agree.  This BBC article may be of interest (though it is poorly written with spelling/grammar errors).  It discusses the non-traditional/secular ones. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4829140.stm


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