# 横倒しになった vs. 横に倒された



## Starfrown

I'm hoping that the natives can explain to me clearly the difference between the following two phrases:


横倒しになった柱
横に倒された柱

When might you choose one over the other?


----------



## Catnails

The choice is purely a matter of one's preference and taste. We are looking at the same picture, the same scene, in both cases. 

That said, I would personally interpret the difference the following way, if I have to.

We can learn from the former sentence that some powerful force was at work and caused the fall of the pillar(s). It is very likely that the cause was a natural disaster or an accident, and the fall was never intended.

From the latter sentence, on the other hand, we are unable to tell if the fall was caused by an unintended force, or it was planned as part of construction work and the fall was handled in an orderly fashion by human workers.


----------



## Starfrown

Catnails said:


> The choice is purely a matter of one's preference and taste. We are looking at the same picture, the same scene, in both cases.
> 
> That said, I would personally interpret the difference the following way, if I have to.
> 
> We can learn from the former sentence that some powerful force was at work and caused the fall of the pillar(s). It is very likely that the cause was a natural disaster or an accident, and the fall was never intended.
> 
> From the latter sentence, on the other hand, we are unable to tell if the fall was caused by an unintended force, or it was planned as part of construction work and the fall was handled in an orderly fashion by human workers.


So would, say, 研ぎ澄まされた刃 would be much more likely than  研ぎ澄まされになった刃, since the sharpening of a blade is something almost certainly done by a man on purpose?


----------



## almostfreebird

~So would, say, 研ぎ澄まされた刃 would be much more likely than 研ぎ澄まされになった刃, since the sharpening of a blade is something almost certainly done by a man on purpose?~ 


"研ぎ澄まされた刃" sounds absolutely natural,
but
研ぎ澄まされになった刃 sounds...what can I say? umm...sounds exotic, eccentric, and ungrammatical,

however,

シャープ(sharp)になった刃 sounds good.

Sorry for my clumsy explanation.


----------



## Catnails

研ぎ澄まされになった刃 is clearly a wrong combination.

横倒し implies a powerful and unusual force was at work, while 横に倒れた or 横に倒された do not imply anything. We cannot tell how it happened. Maybe it was by an organized human work, or by a natural cause, or by a disaster.


----------



## Starfrown

Thanks to both of you.

I just wanted to make sure that _ren'youkei + ni naru_ wasn't a generalized construction.


----------



## Ume

横に倒された柱
I think that 横に is unnecessary, because there's no 縦に倒された柱.

強風で横倒しになった柱
強風で倒された柱
強風で倒れた柱
These all sounds good to me. I think that they mean the same thing.

１．建設現場には、横倒しになったが散らばっていた。
２．建設現場には、倒れた柱が散らばっていた。
３．建設現場には、倒された柱が散らばっていた。
横倒しになった柱, 倒れた柱 and 倒された柱 are all a fallen pole. But in #3 the speaker guessed that someone had fell down the pole on purpose.


----------



## Felis ichthyophilus

HI. can I join you? I'm con on Catnails.

Both "横倒しにされた(=倒された)柱" and "横倒しになった(=倒れた)柱" mean "A pillar down onto the earth".  横に倒された and 横に倒れた is a little bit weird.

I image from the former sentence that the pillar was fallen down by human will (revolution or crime).  From the latter sentence, I can't find the reason why the pillar fallen down (an accident, a crime, a revolution, a coodeta (I forgot the spell), a war, a typhoon, an earthquake, a tornado, a mistake of an architecture...).

研ぎ澄まされた刃 (a sharpened blade) is natural because there must be a human will beyond the blade. シャープになる is a little colloquial, but OK; because it is a loan word from English. 研ぎ澄ましになった刃 sounds like curious because blades never come into being and sharpened without any human will, and much worse is 研ぎ澄まされになった刃.

How about these examples?

(1) 白鳥にされたお姫さまは夜には人間の姿に戻れます。
 The princess transmuted into a swan turns back into a maiden at night.

 Someone made her a swan and the magic loses the power at night. 
She is not willing to become a swan.  
I guess that 戻れる is better than 戻る in this case. 

 (2) 白鳥になったお姫さまは夜には人間の姿に戻ります。
 The princess metamorphosed to a swan turns back into a maiden at night.

 I feel like that Odebt spells herself and disspells every night^^;
She is a witch and is willing to become a swan.  So if she hopes, she can humanize as she like.  You cannot use 戻れる in this case.


----------



## rukiak

yokodaoshi in yokodaoshininaru is not renyoukei but noun like kushizashi in kushizashininaru.


----------



## almostfreebird

*研ぎ澄まされ*になった刃------>>　*研ぎ澄まされた状態**に*なった刀

Only a noun and adjective appear to be suitable before *に*, I think.


----------



## Starfrown

Sorry everyone! I just realized after reading your posts that I typed    研ぎ澄まされになった when I had intended to type  研ぎ澄ましになった after analogy with  横倒しになった.

In any case, thanks for all of your responses. I think I have a much better understanding of the issue now.


----------



## Flaminius

Okay, that's what you meant.  

Hmmm, maybe your question is how usual for a _reňňyōkē_ to produce a nominal (or adjectival)?  As you guessed in *#6* _supra_, it is not very often.

かけもの


----------



## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> Hmmm, maybe your question is how usual for a _reňňyōkē_ to produce a nominal (or adjectival)?  As you guessed in *#6* _supra_, it is not very often.
> 
> かけもの


I suppose that was one of my secondary concerns, yes.
----
I guess I would say that my primary concern is understanding the difference between the Japanese passive and _[something] ni naru_. So what about a sentence like the following, which I found in Mishima's   『鏡子の家』 (the topic is a   鉄橋):

中央部が鉄板になっている。

?

Clearly, iron plating is something that must be applied intentionally.


----------

