# Kein Wunder



## Kittybub

Hallo an alle,

The context is a photographer talking about light :

Licht beschäftigt mich seit vielen Jahren. *Kein Wunder, denn* für einen Fotograf ist Licht vor allem ein Medium.

I'm wondering about the translation of _Kein Wunder, denn_ instead of the more usual _Kein Wunder, daß_...

My attempt :

I have been thinking about light for many years. *Little/small wonder*, since light, for a photographer, is primarily a medium.

I'm hesitating between _little_ wonder and _small_ wonder. I'd rather not use a word like _unsurprisingly_, because it's not very magical  

Vielen Dank im Voraus


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## manfy

"Kein Wunder" is an interjection based on the preceding statement and not the succeeding clause.
I'd just say: No wonder, considering (that) ...


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## elroy

I prefer “*It’s* no wonder, since...”.


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## bearded

I think that in German ''kein Wunder'' is an elliptic phrase for _Das ist kein Wunder _(when followed by _denn_)_ - _similar to English  as suggested in #3.
If followed by _dass, _the ellipsis can be explained as _Es ist kein Wunder (,dass..) = _it's no wonder (that..). In this case, the phrase refers to the subsequent clause.
Both expressions are common in German, and the choice depends on the context.


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## manfy

bearded said:


> Both expressions are common in German, and the choice depends on the context.


 Yes! I'd say it depends on the flow of thoughts that the text conveys.
If you'd start a chapter or a new paragraph with "Kein Wunder, dass  ...", it would sound odd because there's no preceding thought that 'kein Wunder' can attach itself to. So the writer would be inclined to start "Es ist kein Wunder, dass..."
But in the middle of flowing text there may be a very clear idea in the reader's mind and if you then start with "Es ist kein Wunder...", 'es' may disrupt that thought process. In that case the elliptical "Kein Wunder" may be a better choice. It's up to the writer.

By the way, Kittybub, I trust that you do realize that "it's a small wonder, since..." and "(It's) No wonder, since..." express the exact opposite.
Considering this and your OP question, I think you may be misinterpreting "...ist Licht vor allem ein Medium."
_Medium _is used in a positive sense, something like a _Darstellungsmittel_, a main ingredient in photography, which can change the appearance and the emotions the resulting image creates.
Is that magical enough?


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## Kajjo

Kittybub said:


> *Kein Wunder, denn* für einen Fotograf ist Licht vor allem ein Medium.


_= Das verwundert nicht, denn..._


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## bearded

Kittybub said:


> für einen Fotograf


für einen Fotograf*en*


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## Hutschi

Kein Wunder, dass ... - das beschreibt das Ergebnis, das aus den Voraussetzungen ganz natürlich (kein Wunder) folgt.
Kein Wunder, denn ... - das beschreibt den Grund bzw. die Voraussetzungen dafür, dass es kein Wunder ist.

Little/small miracle/wonder - Das kann eine korrekte Übersetzung sein, wenn es in Englisch idiomatisch ist. In Deutsch gibt es auch "Kaum ein Wunder".
Allerdings erscheint es mir unklar: Wenn es bedeutet: "Ein kleines Wunder" - dann ist es falsch. Wobei allerdings "ein kleines Wunder" eigentlich ein richtiges, ein großes Wunder ist. Auf jeden Fall ist "ein kleines Wunder" eine Überraschung und  unerwartet.

"Kein Wunder" bedeutet, dass das Resultat keinerlei Überraschung ist.

---


manfy said:


> If you'd start a chapter or a new paragraph with "Kein Wunder, dass ...", it would sound odd because there's no preceding thought that 'kein Wunder' can attach itself to.


Es könnte als rhetorisches Mittel eingesetzt werden, um Aufmerksamkeit zu erzielen. Es beginnt mit einer offenen Valenz.
Ansonsten stimme ich zu. Eher seltsam.


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## Kittybub

Thank you so much, everyone! Ich werde darüber nachdenken


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## Schlabberlatz

manfy said:


> By the way, Kittybub, I trust that you do realize that "it's a small wonder, since..." and "(It's) No wonder, since..." express the exact opposite.
> Considering this and your OP question, I think you may be misinterpreting "...ist Licht vor allem ein Medium."


Nobody mentioned "It's *a* small wonder". Is that expression even idiomatic in English?

"small wonder" = "no wonder":


> Alternative forms
> little wonder, no wonder
> […]
> Noun
> small wonder (uncountable)
> (idiomatic) An event or fact whose cause or rationale is not difficult to discern; an unsurprising occurrence.
> small wonder - Wiktionary





Kittybub said:


> *Little/small wonder*, since


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## Hutschi

So there is a difference between German and English here:

kein Wunder= little wonder/no wonder
ein kleines Wunder=ein Wunder=ein großes Wunder (approximately) =a big wonder (?)

"ein kleines (little) Wunder" and "a little wonder" are false friends.


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> "ein kleines (little) Wunder" and "a little wonder" are false friends.


_Wunder <> wonder _is the core of this false friend!

There is a certain overlap, but basically it's a false fried.

I wonder why... is not "ich wundere mich"!


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## Hutschi

In #8 I proposed "miracle".
So I rewrite it:

kein Wunder= little miracle/no miracle
ein kleines Wunder=ein Wunder=ein großes Wunder (approximately) =a big miracle(?)
I asked (indirectly) whether it is idiomatic in English, but it isn't. Is it?
Is "a little miracle"="no miracle"? 
PS: Does it fit to "*Kein Wunder, denn* für einen Fotograf ist Licht vor allem ein Medium."?


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> kein Wunder= little miracle/no miracle


With regards to the title question, it means here "es überrascht/verwundert nicht".

This is not about a miracle at all.

See #6 which you agreed to.


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## Hutschi

Indeed I agreed.

"Kein Wunder" includes both. (Es ist nicht verwunderlich, denn es ist kein Wunder/nichts Besonderes.)
Hard to translate.


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## Kajjo

Yes, there is a certain overlap (Wunder/wonder) which requires quite a lot of care when translating.

"It's no suprise that..." is sometimes an easier solution than to juggle with "wonder". At least for me.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> "It's no suprise that..."


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## elroy

But “it’s no wonder” is perfectly idiomatic in this meaning.  I agree that “Wunder” and “wonder” are often false friends, but that’s not the case here.


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## Kajjo

Yes, I believe the false friend issue primarily occurs with the verb "to wonder", not so much with the noun.


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## elroy

With the noun:

Jesus performed miracles, not wonders.
the miracle (not wonder) of childbirth 
But:
the seven wonders (not miracles) of the ancient world 

I believe these are all “Wunder” in German? 

“wonder” can also be uncountable in English, as in:

I’m filled with wonder.

I don’t think “Wunder” is used this way, is it?  I might say “Ehrfurcht.”


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## Kajjo

Yes, "wonder" is difficult.

For Germans particularly "I wonder..." is problematic. (Ich frage mich..., nicht: Ich wundere mich).


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## elroy

And "Ich wundere mich" = "I find it strange," right?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> And "Ich wundere mich" = "I find it strange," right?


Yeah, with the connocation of "that's unexpected".


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## elroy

So maybe something like "I'm perplexed"?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> So maybe something like "I'm perplexed"?


Yes, sometimes. I believe there are several options depending on context and situation.

_Ich wundere mich, dass er noch nicht da ist. <it's strange he's not yet here>
Manchmal wundere ich mich, dass Hutschi mir zustimmt. <sometime I am perplexed...>
Mich wundert hier gar nichts mehr. <nothing surprises me anymore>_


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## bearded

elroy said:


> I’m filled with wonder.
> I don’t think “Wunder” is used this way, is it? I might say “Ehrfurcht.”


What's the exact meaning of  ''I'm filled with wonder''?  Before reading your post, I would have translated it as _Ich bin voller Verwunderung._


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## manfy

bearded said:


> Before reading your post, I would have translated it as _Ich bin voller Verwunderung._


Das verwundert mich nicht!  Without context you can't tell whether the speaker is trying to express _Verwunderung _or _Bewunderung_. 
Wonder is usually a mix of feelings - a cup of awe, 1-2 tablespoons of surprise or astonishment, add a pinch of admiration, mix well and there you go: homemade fresh wonder.
It's a state of mind, a feeling, and different people experience sensations differently. So, how could anyone provide a definitive definition of what wonder is and what it is not? 

As to the phrase "I'm filled with wonder": Without any context, my first thought was _Bewunderung_. But once I see the extended context, I might feel that a completely different word is needed to bring the feeling across more accurately or more vividly.


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## Hutschi

manfy said:


> Das verwundert mich nicht!  Without context you can't tell whether the speaker is trying to express _Verwunderung _or _Bewunderung_.
> ...



Für jemandem voller Bewunderung sein und von jemandem bezaubert sein ist nicht weit voneinander entfernt.


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## elroy

I thought "Bewundering" was "admiration," not "wonder."

"wonder" in this context is synonymous with "awe." 


manfy said:


> Wonder is usually a mix of feelings - a cup of awe, 1-2 tablespoons of surprise or astonishment, add a pinch of admiration, mix well and there you go: homemade fresh wonder.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> This is not about a miracle at all.


I disagree. There is no problem understanding _kein Wunder_ meaning as _no miracle_.



Kajjo said:


> _Wunder <> wonder _is the core of this false friend!


I disagree here, too. The verbs _wundern _and to _to wonder _are false friends (given the fact that the meaning _to wonder=feeling surprise or admiration_ has somewhat fallen out of use in non-literary language); the nouns_ Wunder_ and _wonder_ aren't. German lacks a nuance because it has only one word, _Wunder_, where English has two, _miracle_ and _wonder_. But this don't make _Wunder_ and _wonder _false friends.



Kajjo said:


> = Das verwundert nicht, denn...


That is a *pragmatically *equivalent transcription of the interjection using the verb instead of the noun but the literal meaning is clearly _it no wonder or miracle_.


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## Kajjo

Kajjo said:


> Yes, I believe the false friend issue primarily occurs with the verb "to wonder", not so much with the noun.





berndf said:


> The verbs _wundern _and to _to wonder _are false friends


Yes. See above.


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## elroy

I would say that “wonder” and “Wunder” are definitely partial false friends _synchronically_.


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## Kajjo

Maybe you could write down a few very idiomatic sentences in English with the noun "wonder" and we try to discuss them with regards to "das Wunder/die Überraschung/die Verwunderung" in German?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I would say that “wonder” and “Wunder” are definitely partial false friends _synchronically_.


I can imagine that you perceive it differently then @Kajjo and I. German does not *conceptually* distinguish between wonder and miracle. It is quite predictable that English speakers would understand _Wunder_ and _wonder_ as very different while Germans perceive instisting on the difference as nitpicking.


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## elroy

What I mean is that “Wunder” doesn’t always mean “wonder” and “wonder” doesn’t always mean “Wunder.”  That makes them partial false friends.  

I’m not saying “wonder” and “Wunder” are “very different,” and the connection between “wonder” and “miracle” is very clear to me.  I’m also aware that most likely the only reason English even has two words is that, as in many other cases (like “liberty” and “freedom”), English has a Germanic word and a Latinate one, and while they may have originally been perfect synonyms, their meanings have diverged to a certain extent over the years.  (That said, Arabic does have a distinct word for “miracle” — معجزة — although عجيبة can be used for either “miracle” or “wonder.”)

None of this to me means that “Wunder” and “wonder” aren’t partial false friends.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> None of this to me means that “Wunder” and “wonder” aren’t partial false friends.


If you explain how you use the word then it is fine. I would use the term _false friend_ only if the meanings have diverged to Such an extend that the is no or very little semantic overlay and not if only one use has been split off.


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## elroy

I said "_*partial*_ false friend" precisely because there is some overlap. 

partial false friend - Wiktionary


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## berndf

Yes, I have understood that now.


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