# FR: <verbe> pour <personne> / lui <verbe>



## Bléros

Okay, In French class we had "I was her car for her," replacing everything with pronouns. So, I put "*Je l'ai lavée pour elle*.", but my teacher said it was wrong and said the right sentence was "*Je la lui ai lavée*." I still find that hard to believe. Since when are _pour elle, lui, eux _etc. replaced by an indirect object pronoun? That would mean "He died for me," would be "*Il m'est mort*". That makes absolutely know sense.

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one.


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## Outsider

Bléros said:


> Okay, In French class we had "I washed her car for her," replacing everything with pronouns. So, I put "*Je l'ai lavée pour elle*.", but my teacher said it was wrong and said the right sentence was "*Je la lui ai lavée*." I still find that hard to believe. Since when are _pour elle, lui, eux _etc. replaced by an indirect object pronoun?


When they have a dative meaning. The sentence means that you washed the car for her benefit. In this case, French allows an indirect object pronoun to be used.


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## Maître Capello

Outsider said:


> When they have a dative meaning. The sentence means that you washed the car for her benefit. In this case, French allows an indirect object pronoun to be used.



Mmmh… I don't think the “rule” you give is sufficient to tell whether or not you are allowed to use the _pronom conjoint_… _Il est mort pour moi_ is also *for my benefit*…

_Je l'ai lavée pour elle. _
_ Je la lui ai lavée. _
_Il est mort pour moi _
_Il m'est mort. _


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## neopt

Je la lui ai lavée = j'ai lavé sa voiture (valeur possessive)
Je l'ai lavée pour elle = j'ai lavé la voiture dans son intérêt.


Je me suis brossé les dents = I have brushed my teeth.


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## Outsider

Maître Capello said:


> Mmmh… I don't think the “rule” you give is sufficient to tell whether or not you are allowed to use the _pronom conjoint_… _Il est mort pour moi_ is also *for my benefit*…


I would call that an opinion or an emotional reaction, not a benefit. What do you _benefit_ from her being dead?


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## neopt

Il est mort pour la patrie = Il est mort dans le but d'être utile à la patrie.
Il est mort pour moi = il est mort dans le but de m'être utile.


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## Maître Capello

neopt said:


> Je la lui ai lavée = j'ai lavé sa voiture (valeur possessive)


Non. _J'ai lavé sa voiture_ = _Je *l'*ai lavée_ (sans pronom objet indirect).
D'ailleurs la valeur possessive n'a rien à voir là-dedans il me semble : _Je la *lui* ai lavée = J'ai lavé *pour lui* la voiture qu'il aimerait vendre_.


> Je l'ai lavée pour elle = j'ai lavé la voiture dans son intérêt.


Oui, mais pas nécessairement… On pourrait aussi avoir : _Je l'ai lavée *pour elle* = J'ai lavé la voiture *à sa place*.
_


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## francois_auffret

Bléros said:


> Okay, In French class we had "I was her car for her," replacing everything with pronouns. So, I put "*Je l'ai lavée pour elle*.", but my teacher said it was wrong and said the right sentence was "*Je la lui ai lavée*." I still find that hard to believe. Since when are _pour elle, lui, eux _etc. replaced by an indirect object pronoun? That would mean "He died for me," would be "*Il m'est mort*". That makes absolutely know sense.


 
I would say follow the scholarly postings of Maître Capello, always a good address to find good explanations...

*Je l'ai lavée pour elle *is definitely correct and I would say is the normal standard sentence... However,

*Je la lui ai lavée* is a more idiomatic use, and it is true that the indirect object pronoun *lui *stands for _pour elle _here... This is really idiomatic and it is good that your teacher teaches you that, because it's the way people speak, real life French...

However, you rightly say that *il m'est mort** doesn't work... These pronouns are a very specific feature of French and romance languages, you'll only learn to use them as French do by staying in France...

In the same way, a number of pronouns are used in spoken French, which can't be translated in English... For example, a teacher tells his students

*Ecrivez-moi dix lignes sur vos vacances d'hiver*
or
*Trouvez-moi dix noms de personnages célèbres commençant par 'N' *

Well, let's stop here, or I'm going to digress

Hope I've been of any help...


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## Bléros

Thanks a lot guys. francois-auffret, I understood your sentences. They translate fine in English. However, what is the valeur possessive?


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## francois_auffret

Well, in these sentences verbs are used n the *imperative* mood so the pronouns are placed behind the verb (and in this case you have to use slightly different pronouns, but they are still direct object / indirect object pronouns)... In the sentences i've given as examples, they don't have a valeur possessive, they rather mean:

"_Do it for me_", or even (because in some cases you do it for yourself), "_Do it because I'm telling you_"....

I was just mentioning an idiomatic use of these pronouns...

Cheers


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## Avignonais

Bléros, 
Good thread and good responses. Here's another thread where the lui pronoun replaced a different preposition. Geostan's explanation helped me understand why lui is used. 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=730983


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## genevois

Hi,

Could anyone tell me *why* I have to use 'lui' in the first sentence and 'elle' in the second sentence? Merci d'avance.

Je le lui ai apporté. (I brought it for her)

C'est trop pour elle. (It's too much for her)


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## Quaeitur

Both sentences are correct


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## genevois

Many thanks for the quick answer. But I actually meant to ask "why"?


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## Sencha

it is more a grammar question but let's go :
lui can be placed before the verb, it can replace both masculine and feminine.

J'ai parlé à Michel : je lui ai parlé
J'ai parlé à Michelle : je lui ai parlé.

But it can also be a pronoun that stays after the verb and the preposition. Then you have a masculine form and a feminine one. :

J'ai voté pour Michel : j'ai voté pour lui
J'ai voté pour Michelle : j'ai voté pour elle

Les deux listes sont : me, te, lui, nous, vous, leur (1)
                                   moi, toi, lui/ elle, nous, vous, eux/ elles (2)

it depends on the verb and the preposition that it uses.
1:
parler à
écrire à
téléphoner à

2:
voter pour 
jouer avec/contre
habiter chez...


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## Fred_C

Hi, 
here are some useful keywords.
The pronoun "lui" in the first sentence is "non disjunctive"
The pronoun "elle" in the second sentence is "disjunctive"


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## Asr

genevois said:


> Je le lui ai apporté. (I brought it for her)
> 
> C'est trop pour elle. (It's too much for her)


 
The simplest way I see it, in the first sentence you need an indirect pronoun. So you have the options of me/te/lui/nous/vous/leur 
and has to be lui here, for her.

In the second one you still need a indirect pronoun, but since it comes after a preposition, you have to use a tonic pronoun. So the options are moi/toi/lui/elle/nous/vous/eux/elles, and you have to use elle for her. 

and if I may ask here, what does disjunctive mean?


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## Sencha

disjunctive : after the verb and the preposition
non disjunctive : that sticks to the verb, right before it


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## Rory Melough

Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but could someone just clarify "disjunctive" for me? 

I looked at the entry on Wikipedia but it really didn't make a great deal of sense. From what I understand, a disjunctive pronoun is a pronoun that has been isolated from the verb. 

But I don't understand why, in this case, "lui" is non-disjunctive and "elle" is disjunctive"...


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## Asr

Vampire Rockstar said:


> From what I understand, a disjunctive pronoun is a pronoun that has been isolated from the verb.
> 
> But I don't understand why, in this case, "lui" is non-disjunctive and "elle" is disjunctive"...


 
See it is just like you said, a disjunctive pronoun is isolated from the verb; i.e there is a preposition between the verb and the pronoun.
eg : Je pense à elle.

Whereas a non disjunctive pronoun is just next to the verb. 

eg: Je lui parle.   Well, that is the way I got it.


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## Fred_C

Vampire Rockstar said:


> From what I understand, a disjunctive pronoun is a pronoun that has been isolated from the verb.


 
Pronouns must take a special form when you want to isolate them from the verb. The so-called "disjunctive" form.


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## Rory Melough

Is there much of a difference between a "disjunctive" pronoun and a stressed pronoun, or is a stressed noun a type of disjunctive pronoun?


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## Sencha

Pour moi, pronoms forts (stressed), pronoms postposés, pronoms disjoints (disjunctive) sont la même chose.

Je me rends compte aussi qu'il y a les pronoms forts quire prennent un sujet : 
Moi, j'aime pas la télé, lui, il adore. 
Je m'en fous, moi.
Ils sont aussi disjoints mais pas toujours postposés...


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## boodyel

Salut!
I'm having trouble resolving a question about whether it is correct to replace a noun preceded by "pour" with an indirect object pronoun.  
Specifically, is it grammatically correct to replace: "J'ai trouvé un travail pour lui." with "Je lui ai trouvé un travail."?  This sounds alright to me, but I am having trouble finding the "official" guidelines on the subject.
Merci d'avance,
boodyel


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## Maurice le difficile

You are right. You can use it for the feminine as well.

J'ai trouvé un travail pour elle = Je lui ai trouvé un travail


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## Maître Capello

This indeed works with _trouver_ but definitely not with all verbs taking _pour_!

_travailler pour qqn → lui travailler_ 
_chanter pour le plaisir → lui chanter_ 
_appeler pour une annonce → lui appeler_ 
_ faire un costume pour le carnaval → lui faire un costume_ 

In fact, you usually cannot replace _pour_ + <noun> by _lui_, unless the verb can also be used with _à_:

_trouver un cadeau pour qqn / trouver un cadeau *à* qqn → lui trouver un cadeau 
__faire un costume pour qqn / faire un costume *à* qqn → lui faire un costume 
chanter une chanson pour qqn / chanter une chanson *à* qqn → lui chanter une chanson 
__faire un costume pour qqn / faire un costume *à* qqn → lui faire un costume_


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## smeersmudge1

Salut tout le monde.

J'ai un élève qui a écrit cette phrase: "je lui cuisine"  pour dire "Je cuisine pour elle."  Il faut dire le "pour elle," n'est-ce pas?  On peut pas avoir un objet indirect sauf si on mange son ami, ce qui n'est pas du tout l'idée, et même là, il faut un objet direct, pas indirect.  J'espère que je fais du sens.

I have a student who has said "je lui cuisine" to show that she is cooking FOR someone.  But it is necessary to say "for her," I think.  Otherwise one ends up saying that one is cooking the person, which is not at all the idea.  Even so, "cooking the person" requires a direct object, not an indirect and "lui" is indirect, so.....  I think I must stick with the prepositional phrase. Yes?


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## Oddmania

Hi,

It's actually possible, correct, quicker and much more common than _pour elle_ as a matter of fact!  It also ocurs with _Acheter _(_Je lui ai acheté un cadeau_). _J'ai acheté un cadeau pour elle_ would sound somewhat clumsy (unless you really want to stress the fact you bought something for her, and for nobody else).


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## Juan Jacob Vilalta

Non, _Je lui cuisine_ est tout à fait correct.
Si tu veux la manger, il faudrait dire: _Je *la *cuisine_.


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## Maître Capello

Oui, enfin attention… _Je lui cuisine_ tout seul sans COD est faux. On peut en revanche dire _Je lui cuisine X_…

En bref:

_Je *lui* cuisine. _
_Je cuisine *pour elle*. _
_Je *lui* cuisine de bons petits plats. _
_Je cuisine de bons petits plats *pour elle*. _


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