# Butter



## CyrusSH

Online Etymology Dictionary



> *butter (n.)*
> Old English butere "butter," general West Germanic (compare Old Frisian, Old High German butera, German Butter, Dutch boter), an early loan-word from Latin butyrum "butter" (source of Italian burro, Old French burre, French beurre), from Greek boutyron, perhaps literally "cow-cheese," from bous "ox, cow" (from PIE root *gwou- "ox, bull, cow") + tyros "cheese" (from PIE root *teue- "to swell"); but this might be a folk etymology of a *Scythian word*.
> 
> The product was used from an early date in India, Iran and northern Europe, but not in ancient Greece and Rome. Herodotus described it (along with cannabis) among the oddities of the Scythians.



What was this Scythian word? 

About the word _paneer_: Panir



> Hindi and Urdu panīr, from Persian, ultimately from Old Iranian *pati-, against + *nī-, to churn butter; akin to Khotanese ñye, buttermilk, Sanskrit nītam, fresh butter, and Latvian (sviestu) nīt, to make (butter).



So the original Persian word could be _patnir_ and probably Scythian _batir_ or _butir_?


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## Testing1234567

CyrusSH said:


> but this might be a folk etymology of a *Scythian word*.



Why do you think that the etymology you cited is inaccurate? Which step do you deny? Which step should be replaced with a Scythian influence?

1. Modern English *butter* < Old English *butere*
2. Old English *butere* < Proto-Germanic **buterǭ*
3. Proto-Germanic **buterǭ* < Latin *būtȳrum*
4. Latin *būtȳrum* < Greek *βούτῡρον*

Why must the above etymology be a "folk etymology" instead of coexist with the Scythian etymology? In fact, Wiktionary claims that the Greek word is from Scythian.



CyrusSH said:


> The product was used from an early date in India, Iran and northern Europe, but not in ancient Greece and Rome. Herodotus described it (along with cannabis) among the oddities of the Scythians.



This doesn't mean the Romans and Greeks didn't have a word for it, nor does it mean that the English word "butter" cannot descend from Greek and Latin.

Actually, Pliny the Elder described butter as "barbararum gentium lautissimus cibus" (the most delicate of food among barbarous nations). (Plin. Nat. 28.35)



CyrusSH said:


> So the original Persian word could be _patnir_ and probably Scythian _batir_ or _butir_?



It probably isn't helpful to 1. assume that the word has been borrowed from Scythian 2. from Scythian by sound alone (there are many methods of borrowing) 3. reconstruct the Scythian word based on 2.


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## Treaty

It is likely that the Greek didn't have any word for it (whatever it was, some kind of "butter"), otherwise it didn't make sense for Herodotus to explain how it was prepared. The problem is the implication of his "they [Scythians] call it _boutyron_". Does it mean that the Scythian word for it sounded like _boutyron_? Or is it the Greek meaning ("cow-cheese") of the Scythian word? Then there is the question of what word _boutyron _equates. If it was Persian, the original word would have started like _būtūr_. But was the transcription accurate? Another question is who these Scythians were. Are they the Iranian-speaking Scythians or another nomadic inhabitant of the steppes whom were conveniently listed under the Scythian umbrella? Even if they were the Iranian Scythian, was that word native or a loanword from, for example, some Caucasian language?


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## apmoy70

I wouldn't trust Herodotus formulating etymologies, so much, he even names κάνναβις (cannabis) a "Scythian" loan word (we have accurately established today that the name is from the Assyrian "Quunabu").
Herodotus is not a linguistic historian.
As for βούτυρον, for both Babiniotis (prof. (emer.) of Linguistics, Capodistrian Uni. of Athens, Greece), and Beekes (prof. (emer.) of Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, Uni of Leiden, Netherlands) is a Greek word: βοῦς (cow) + τυρός (cheese)


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## PersoLatin

apmoy70 said:


> Herodotus is not a linguistic historian.





Treaty said:


> ...otherwise it didn't make sense for Herodotus to explain how it was prepared


But if there's evidence for Treaty's statement (above), then that's just another account of history by Herodotus but linguistically relevant here, no?


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## desi4life

apmoy70 said:


> I wouldn't trust Herodotus formulating etymologies, so much, he even names κάνναβις (cannabis) a "Scythian" loan word (we have accurately established today that the name is from the Assyrian "Quunabu").



As Wiktionary shows, the etymology of cannabis is complex, with related words in different language families. It states the Greek word is perhaps a loan from Thracian or Scythian and cites Beekes as the source.


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## CyrusSH

First I should clarify some things here:

1. Herodotus never mentions the word _boutyron_ (butter), in fact he even doesn't know what it is, he just describes something which was made by Scythians that we already know, is butter.

2. Hippocrates in his work "The Scythians" mentions the word _boutyron_ as a Scythian word for what Herodotus has described, but he also doesn't know it is butter, of course he knows butter but he uses the word _pikerion_ for it.

3. Several centuries later, the Greek physician Galen discovers that _boutyron_ is the same butter and interprets it as being "cow-cheese" in Greek.


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## Treaty

I made two mistakes. First, I meant Hippocrates not Herodotus who said the product is called _boutyron_. Then, it is not mentioned that Scythians called it so, but it "is called _boutyron_". If so, he could have simply used a Greek word to represent the Scythian product. He uses _tyron _(cheese) to describe a similar Scythian product. If both instances are authentic, there is no need to consider a Scythian etymology for _boutyron._


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## Testing1234567

CyrusSH said:


> he just describes something which was made by Scythians that we already know, is butter.


Source?



CyrusSH said:


> Hippocrates in his work "The Scythians" mentions the word _boutyron_ as a Scythian word for what Herodotus has described


Source? "The Scythians" isn't a work of Hippocrates.



CyrusSH said:


> he uses the word _pikerion_ for it.


Source?



CyrusSH said:


> Several centuries later, the Greek physician Galen discovers that _boutyron_ is the same butter and interprets it as being "cow-cheese" in Greek.


Source?


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## Testing1234567

Also, please address my questions in #2.


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## CyrusSH

Testing1234567 said:


> Also, please address my questions in #2.



I edited my intial post, it was not me who said that is a folk etymology and other things but Online Etymology Dictionary

For sources that you asked, I have actually mentioned them but I think you want some weblinks that I should search to find them, however you yourself can do it too.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> I made two mistakes. First, I meant Hippocrates not Herodotus who said the product is called _boutyron_. Then, it is not mentioned that Scythians called it so, but it "is called _boutyron_". If so, he could have simply used a Greek word to represent the Scythian product. He uses _tyron _(cheese) to describe a similar Scythian product. If both instances are authentic, there is no need to consider a Scythian etymology for _boutyron._



You made the third mistake, Hippocrates doesn't use _tyron_ but the word _hippace_ to describe another Scythian product which could be either cheese or whey.


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## Perseas

CyrusSH said:


> Hippocrates doesn't use _tyron_ but the word _hippace_ to describe another Scythian product which could be either cheese or whey.


He does; in "Περί ἀέρων, ὑδάτων, τόπων" ("Airs Waters Places"). At the end of the book he deals with Scythians. Actually he uses both "ἱππάκη" & "τυρὸς" ("ἱππάκην" & "τυρὸν" are accusative forms).

Greek:
αὐτοὶ δ᾽ ἐσθίουσι κρέα ἑφθὰ καὶ [p. 120] πίνουσι γάλα ἵππων. καὶ *ἱππάκην* τρώγουσι: [27] τοῦτο δ᾽ ἐστὶ *τυρὸς* ἵππων.
Hippocrates,  De aere aquis et locis, section 18

English:
They themselves eat boiled [p. 121] meats and drink mares' milk. They have a sweetmeat called *hippace*, which is a *cheese* from the milk of mares (_hippoi_).
Hippocrates,  De aere aquis et locis, PART 18


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## CyrusSH

It is clear that Hippocrates also doesn't know what _hippace_ is, Pliny the Elder even says it is a plant that grows in Scythia! In another place Hippocrates mentions that "after it has been dried, known by the name of hippace", for this reason I think he is actually talking about *kashk*, it is interesting that most of tourists who come to Iran still don't know what kashk is, some of them really think it is a sweetmeat!


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> It is clear that Hippocrates also doesn't know what _hippace_ is,


This is the point. He might not have exactly been familiar with any of these dairy products. Therefore he could have used a more familiar Greek word to describe them. If his mental image of a processed dairy product was mainly confined to "cheese", he might have considered any exotic dairy product as a type of cheese as well.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> This is the point. He might not have exactly been familiar with any of these dairy products. Therefore he could have used a more familiar Greek word to describe them. If his mental image of a processed dairy product was mainly confined to "cheese", he might have considered any exotic dairy product as a type of cheese as well.



If you want to be believe ancient Greek folk etymologies then you should also believe that most of ancient non-Greek tribes, peoples and etc had also Greek-origin names, like Amazon which was said to be from a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός) "without breast"!


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## Perseas

Even if "a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός)" is a folk etymology, it can not serve as an argument to justify that "βού-τυρον" is also a folk etymology.


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## CyrusSH

Perseas said:


> Even if "a- (ἀ-) and mazos (μαζός)" is a folk etymology, it can not serve as an argument to justify that "βού-τυρον" is also a folk etymology.



"without breast" means at least something but I wonder what "cow cheese" means! Hippocrates neither talks about cow nor cheese, so why he should call it "cow cheese"?


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## Testing1234567

I'm starting to doubt the given etymology too. For one, there is Wikipedia claiming "[t]he earliest butter would have been from sheep or goat's milk; cattle are not thought to have been domesticated for another thousand years" (source).


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Hippocrates neither talks about cow nor cheese, so why he should call it "cow cheese"?


This is not really an issue. In Persian, we call strawberry as _Frankish (i.e. European) mulberry _while it is neither European nor a mulberry. Same, we call tomato as _Frankish plum _despite it is neither. Besides, we should be careful not to fall for etymological fallacy. Are you sure that _tyros_ meant exactly what we call "cheese" now? I wonder if it was a generic name for processed dairy products, especially if they were a solid separated from milk like both butter and cheese are. Regarding the cow part, if there was a distinct feature of cow cheese (as opposed to goat or sheep cheese) which resembled that of the Scythian "butter" (for example if it was softer), it wouldn't have been a surprise if the Greek had seized this resemblance to name the product.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> This is not really an issue. In Persian, we call strawberry as _Frankish (i.e. European) mulberry _while it is neither European nor a mulberry. Same, we call tomato as _Frankish plum _despite it is neither. Besides, we should be careful not to fall for etymological fallacy. Are you sure that _tyros_ meant exactly what we call "cheese" now? I wonder if it was a generic name for processed dairy products, especially if they were a solid separated from milk like both butter and cheese are. Regarding the cow part, if there was a distinct feature of cow cheese (as opposed to goat or sheep cheese) which resembled that of the Scythian "butter" (for example if it was softer), it wouldn't have been a surprise if the Greek had seized this resemblance to name the product.



Hippocrates uses the word "boutyron" in a passive sentence, for example I say in Persian "there is a red fruit in Europe which is called tomato", when you read it, you don't say _to_ means "you" in Persian and _mato_ ... because it is clear that I'm talking about a non-Persian word, but if I say "there is a red fruit in Europe that we call it Frankish plum", you can say that "Frankish plum" is its Persian name.


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## Treaty

This observation is particular to culture and language. This should be elaborated by someone familiar with ancient Greek literature, not us. 
In surface, if you had noticed, _hippace_ was also mentioned in a passive way (or as appears in its English translation). Considering the Iranian word for "horse" is akin to _asp-, _this _hippace _seems to be a Greek word from _hippos_ "horse". This suggests being used in a passive sentence doesn't logically lead to being a foreign word.


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> Online Etymology Dictionary
> 
> *butter (n.)*
> Old English butere "butter," general West Germanic (compare Old Frisian, Old High German butera, German Butter, Dutch boter), an early loan-word from Latin butyrum "butter" (source of Italian burro, Old French burre, French beurre), from Greek boutyron, perhaps literally "cow-cheese," from bous "ox, cow" (from PIE root *gwou- "ox, bull, cow") + tyros "cheese" (from PIE root *teue- "to swell"); but this might be a folk etymology of a *Scythian word*.
> 
> The product was used from an early date in India, Iran and northern Europe, but not in ancient Greece and Rome. Herodotus described it (along with cannabis) among the oddities of the Scythians.



"Etymonline" is mostly extracted from the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), in this case, from the entry on "butter" in the first edition 1888, which states:

"The Greek is usually supposed to be < _βοῦς_ ox or cow + _τυρός_ cheese, but is perhaps of Scythian or other barbarous origin."

Modern etymological dictionaries of Greek, English and other languages have no difficulty with the traditional Greek etymology. Let us just say that as yet no plausible "barbarous" etymology is on record.


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## Perseas

In another book of Hippocrates ("Περί νούσων τό τέταρτον"/ "Diseases IV") there are informations about the butter and hippace making processes by Scythians. You can read: "τό βούτυρον καλέουσιν" & "ἱππάκην μιν καλέουσιν", which translate "which they call butter" & "they call it hippace". Therefore the sentences are in active, not in passive.

On the other hand, I agree with Treaty that "hippace" ("ἱππάκη") seems to be a Greek word from "hippos" (ἵππος = horse). Probably the same applies to "boutyron". He uses words which have meaning in Greek.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> This observation is particular to culture and language. This should be elaborated by someone familiar with ancient Greek literature, not us.
> In surface, if you had noticed, _hippace_ was also mentioned in a passive way (or as appears in its English translation). Considering the Iranian word for "horse" is akin to _asp-, _this _hippace _seems to be a Greek word from _hippos_ "horse". This suggests being used in a passive sentence doesn't logically lead to being a foreign word.



Hippocrates says: "The Scythians pour the milk of their mares into wooden vessels, and shake it violently; this causes it to foam, and the fat part, which is light, rising to the surface, becomes what is called boutyron. The heavy and thick part, which is below, being kneaded and properly prepared, is, after it has been dried, known by the name of hippace."

In fact he is talking about one type of milk, it can't be said the first word relates to cow but the second one to horse, about _hippace_ it is important to know what the last letters mean in Greek but if _boutyron_ also refers to horse, we know the Ossetic word for horse is _bæh_, and _tūiri_ means "curdled milk" in Avestan.


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## apmoy70

CyrusSH said:


> ...we know the Ossetic word for horse is _bæh_, and _tūiri_ means "curdled milk" in Avestan.


Βut τυρός is not a loan word, it's inherited, from PIE *tuH-ro- < *teuH- _to swell_ (the Avestan _tūiri-_ is cognate as is the Lithuanian tverti).


Perseas said:


> ...On the other hand, I agree with Treaty that "hippace" ("ἱππάκη") seems to be a Greek word from "hippos" (ἵππος = horse). Probably the same applies to "boutyron". He uses words which have meaning in Greek.


Isn't it possible that Herodotus simply calques a couple of Greek words on Scythian/Ossetic/Iranian ones?


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## fdb

CyrusSH said:


> we know the Ossetic word for horse is _bæh_.



Ossetic бӕх does not have an Iranian/Scythian etymology. It is a borrowing from one of the North Caucasian languages. 

On the Northern slopes of the Caucasus | Wanana sculun Frankon


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## Perseas

apmoy70 said:


> Isn't it possible that Herodotus simply calques a couple of Greek words on Scythian/Ossetic/Iranian ones?


Ιt can be.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> "Etymonline" is mostly extracted from the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), in this case, from the entry on "butter" in the first edition 1888, which states:
> 
> "The Greek is usually supposed to be < _βοῦς_ ox or cow + _τυρός_ cheese, but is perhaps of Scythian or other barbarous origin."
> 
> Modern etymological dictionaries of Greek, English and other languages have no difficulty with the traditional Greek etymology. Let us just say that as yet no plausible "barbarous" etymology is on record.



It is really funny that an etymology from the last century is considered as old but the ancient one is accepted, if Hippocrates or another contemporary Greek gave this etymology, it could be believable, however he should explain why something which is clearly not cheese and is not produced from the milk of cow, is called "cow cheese", the problem is that this strange etymology has been given by Galen who lived 600 years after him! It is not even clear that by boutyron Hippocrates really meant butter or not, for example he says "If you want to know whether a woman will be pregnant; give to drink boutyron".


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