# Pronuciation of "κτ"



## Zluim

I was a bit puzzled when I saw in another thread that Greeks might consider (at least word final) “kt” alien and perhaps even difficult to pronounce (the words/names in question were Kaliokt and markt). If this is the case, how do you pronounce “κτ” in words like κτήριο, ηλεκτρικός, αρκτικός and ιδιοκτήτης then? Is it /χτ/?


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## Δημήτρης

_χτ_ήριο, ηλε_χτ_ρικός, ιδιο_χτ_ήτης but αρ_κτ_ικός. Also έ_χτ_α_χτ_ος, ε_χτ_όπισμα, έ_χτ_ος, ε_χτ_ελώ, εναλλα_χτ_ικός but ε_κτ_ελώνιση. (This is how I pronounce them. Probably differs from person to person)

The "rule" is, that if a word comes from Puristic Greek, it retains its phonology, which allows /kt/. Words that evolved independently in Greek have undergone the /kt/->/xt/ change and it's even reflected in spelling, like χτυπώ, χτίζω, χταπόδι, χτένι etc.
But, as a literary word from Puristic becomes common in Modern Greek, it's very likely to lose its "immunity" to phonological changes and spelling won't help (all the words in the first line are spelled with κτ). 
We see ηλε_κτ_ρισμός but this is not allowed by Modern Greek phonotactic rules, so we pronounce ηλεχτρισμός, unless we are over-pronouncing or the word is clearly literary. 
If you are learning Greek, don't be bothered by this. There aren't any words that contrast /kt/ with /xt/; in fact, we might not even hear the difference.

Final κτ is alien not only because /kt/ is a rare consonant cluster, but also because -τ and -κτ are not found word-finally in native words (if a word ends with a consonant, is probably /s/).


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## Zluim

Great, thank you for the explanation!

I had noticed a somewhat confusing mixture of κτ, χτ and optional κτ or χτ in written Greek, but didn't realize the extent of the phonological shift. It doesn't help either that language learning material tend to be overly "correct", leaving me thinking that /kt/ is the (or at least a) common way of pronouncing κτ.


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## ireney

I on the other hand pronounce all the words Δημήτρης mentions with a κτ and I have to admit to being surprised when I read how Δημήτρης pronounces them since I haven't heard them pronounced so (χτ) either. Could it be Cypriot Greek vs Greece's Greek?


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## Δημήτρης

No, I know it happens in Greece Greek as well, but probably is less common in some dialects? (in which the words retain the "literary" status and therefore their /kt/)


> 4. Σε λέξεις με διπλόμορφο συμφωνισμό προτιμούμε _(στον γραπτό λόγο)_ τον
> λιγότερο αλλοιωμένο τύπο. Γράφουμε:
> 
> αποκτώ - αντί: αποχτώ· κατακτώ - αντί: καταχτώ· ανύπαρκτος - αντί:
> ανύπαρχτος· αντίκτυπος - αντί: αντίχτυπος, αλλά: χτύπημα· θελκτικός - αντί:
> θελχτικός· σχολείο - αντί σκολείο- χθες - χθεσινός - αντί: χτες - χτεσινός.


From the Εγκόλπιο της ορθής γραφής.


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## artion

"kt" is not a problem in the beginning or the mid of words. But never exists at the end. There are few hellenized words ending in -kt (e.g. tact)


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## GreekNative

For the history, I am also a bit surprised at how Dimitris tends to pronounce κτ as χτ. Like Ireney, I always pronounce it κτ. But then again, some times it's not easy to tell the difference when people speak. I also agree with artion's remark; when κτ is followed by a vowel, as in κτίριο, it's easier to pronounce. It's when you find it at the end of the word that it becomes problematic, such as in Markt. But then again, in "hellenized" words, which we tend to use more often, such as tact, we're used to pronouncing it without problem.

Oh well... language is fascinating after all, isn't it...


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## shawnee

Just because I am interested as much in the Greek spoken abroad (the overseas communities), I would add that over here, you are more than likely to hear,                  (irrespective of how it might be written) χτήριο as opposed to κτήριο. I would only make the case for this word though. I would be interested in cougr's observations.


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## Δημήτρης

shawnee's post reminded me of something important. In more "Standard" dialects, word initial /kt/ is more likely to change to to /xt/, while in medial position (especially in εκ- compounds) the change is more rare. 

PS. If I have heard someone pronouncing /'ektaktos/ without pausing between the syllables ek.tak.tos, I am sure I would remember it though


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## elineo

shawnee said:


> Just because I am interested as much in the Greek spoken abroad (the overseas communities), I would add that over here, you are more than likely to hear,                  (irrespective of how it might be written) χτήριο as opposed to κτήριο. I would only make the case for this word though. I would be interested in cougr's observations.



The most interesting result of this kind of change of pronunciation is in the word λεφτά (money) that theoretically doesn´t exist. This word came from bad pronunciation of the word λεπτά (cents)


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## ireney

Just in case someone doesn't know it, I am not Greek-American. In fact I moved here from Greece (Piraeus to be exact) only 3 years ago. The pronunciation I'm talking about therefore is not of Greek-Americans but of Greeks in Greece (especially in Attica where I spent most of my life). 

Δημήτρη I should send you a recording of me saying "έκτακτος" then


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## Δημήτρης

Why not  It will be interesting. (yep, I am not convinced there wouldn't be a degree of fricativization if the word was used in context).


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## ladychiquitita

I agree with all those above who say that native greek speakers,have no problem to say /kt/ in the beginning or in the middle of a word. I also pronounce it /kt/ in the examples Δημήτρης mentioned. What Δημήτρης says does happen, but it's not the rule.


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## cougr

shawnee said:


> Just because I am interested as much in the Greek spoken abroad (the overseas communities), I would add that over here, you are more than likely to hear,                  (irrespective of how it might be written) χτήριο as opposed to κτήριο. I would only make the case for this word though. I would be interested in cougr's observations.




Greetings shawnee,

I definitely agree that in our parts of the woods the word _χτίριο_ and related words such as_ χτίστης_ and _χτίζω_ appear to be more common than their counterparts beginning with _κτ_.

Other words commonly pronounced with the softer _χτ_ consonant combination include: α_χτ_ίνες(this one I hear all the time), α_χτ_ινίδιο,  καρδιο_χτ_ύπι, ο_χτ_απόδι/_χτ_απόδι, τα_χτ_οποιώ, _χτ_ένα, _χτ_ενίζω, _χτ_ήνος, _χτ_ικιό, and _χτ_υπώ.

Also, on a few occasions I have encountered the word _έκτακτη _variously pronounced as έ_χ_τα_χτ_η_, _έ_χτ_ακτη_ and _έκτα_χτ_η. Same applies with the word α_χτ_ή.

_Ηλεχτρισμός_ though strikes me (pun unintended) as somewhat unusual and I don't think I have ever come across it pronounced as such.


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## shawnee

Thanks for the confirmation cougr, and I liked the pun. At the risk of being deleted for lateral extension of the topic, are you aware of any work being done (or done) to evaluate the linguistic diversion of Greek spoken here?


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## Δημήτρης

It was wrong to give examples of _my_ idiolect since it is indeed influenced by the Cypriot dialect which generally retains only few /kt/ and /pt/, even in Sd. Greek, but what I said about literary words with /kt/ slowly losing their status and changing to /xt/ is to the best of my knowledge correct. An example is the word ηλεκτρισμός, which I've heard by ERT's newscasters pronounced as /ilextri'zmos/ (another example of literary words shifting to Modern phonology is that many words are now pronounced with a semivowel sound, like διαζύγιο /δjaziγio/ instead of /δiaziγio/)


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## wordofdamocles

As a native speaker of Greek, allow me to disagree with the above post from Dimitris. /kt/ is still pronounced as /kt/ even from modern day greek speakers and especially from people who work for the Media or the press, who-most of them if not all-are very cautious in matters of pronounciation. 
It happens to have the luck to know lots of Greek Cypriots and I do understand that in the cypriot dialect matters such as /kt/ and /xt/ occur often. But in formal speeches, as far as I have observed, seldom do they say /xt/ in the stead of /kt/, even in Cyprus.


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## Δημήτρης

So, you do pronounce δάκτυλο rather than δάχτυλο; Κτήρια; Χτήρια;

I insist that the choice of the consonant cluster has to do with the status of the word as a literary word -a Katharevousa word to put it in simpler terms-.
When the word is indeed literary, Katharevousa phonology is used. When it's not, or it has become common in lower language registers or just the speaker is not very careful about his or her articulation, then it's not uncommon to switch to "Demotic" phonology, even if the spelling does not reflect it.

Now, the fact that _I_ have more /xt/ in my speech that the average, let's say Athenian, speaker of Greek is indeed dialectical or even personal (as I have noted in my first answer in this thread) is not really related. But I accept that I don't know much about the language ideology in Greece. But I have Greek friends and I know how they do pronounce some words which are no longer "literary". And even in Greek TV which is indeed the kingdom of "learned" pronunciation, some non-standard /xt/ are to be heard.


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## wordofdamocles

I mean no offence but I don't think this specific topic with /kt/ and /xt/ has so much to do with Katharevousa and Dimotiki, rather than how people with different dialects pronounce some words differently. I think it is quite reasonable since every place-city, village, or larger area- develops its unique lingual characteristics according to numerous factors, relevant or irrelevant to the language itself, thus resulting to all existing dialects. 
As a conclusion, we may not judge something like /xt/ and /kt/ in terms of right or wrong.We must simply accept both terms as an existing reality in the language. Some people's reality goes with /kt/, some others' with /xt/


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## artion

Δημήτρης said:


> I don't know much about the language ideology in Greece.


 
Ideology! A key word for some lingual phenomena in Greek. There are cases where -kt- is on purpose turned to -χτ- to underline the ideological position of the speaker or the case. For example, the Communist Party has "αχτίδες" in its terminology, meaning "branch organizations" or something like that. But none (communist or not) would say "αχτίδες laser". In another example, most of us would say "χτίστης" (builder) but only "Κτίστης" refering to God. In this view, some pronounciations become ideological or cultural symbols.


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## Δημήτρης

> I mean no offence but I don't think this specific topic with /kt/ and  /xt/ has so much to do with Katharevousa and Dimotiki, rather than how  people with different dialects pronounce some words differently.


Well, It has to do with how one's dialect treats the consonant cluster /kt/ of Katharevousa. Outside Katharevousa words (and loanwords, I suppose) this cluster doesn't exist. 



> As a conclusion, we may not judge something like /xt/ and /kt/ in terms  of right or wrong.


Of course not. Despite how much I cringe when people don't pronounce "final nu" or double consonants, I wouldn't say they are wrong 


> Some people's reality goes with /kt/, some others' with /xt/


But it's a parallel reality. Modern Greek has two sound systems. One that permits clusters like κτ, πτ, χθ, φσ and one that doesn't. It's a matter of in which system a word falls in at a certain point of time. 



> Ideology! A key word for some lingual phenomena in Greek. There are cases where -kt- is on purpose turned to -χτ- to underline the ideological position of the speaker or the case. For example, the Communist Party has "αχτίδες" in its terminology, meaning "branch organizations" or something like that. But none (communist or not) would say "αχτίδες laser". In another example, most of us would say "χτίστης" (builder) but only "Κτίστης" refering to God. In this view, some pronounciations become ideological or cultural symbols.


Yes, I remember reading another post of yours about this. 
You are probably right about αχτίδες λέιζερ. Most people would say α(κτ|χτ)ίνες λέιζερ.
But people talk about αχτίδες του ήλιου, as well as ηλιακές ακτίνες, don't they?


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