# Etymology of the Arabic word خردة khurda (junk, scrap)



## Raigerzero

Is this word a borrowing of the Turkish word "hurda" of the same meaning, or is the Turkish word from the Arabic? I notice that in the dictionary there is a form خردجي meaning "junk dealer", which has the جي ending that normally comes from Turkish -cı ending (and if anyone can answer here, I'm wondering if there are there any native Arabic words that have this ending added). Either way, regardless if the word is Turkish or Arabic, I'd like to know the etymology if possible (i.e. if Arabic, does it have a corresponding root meaning? Does it have cognates in other Semitic languages? If Turkish, is it a native Turkic word? etc)


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## ancalimon

It's most probable that hurda in Turkish is a loan.

hurda: junk
hurdacı: juck dealer


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## fdb

xurda is (I think) from Persian xurda “small”, in the sense “little things”. The jī suffix is often added to purely Arabic words, e.g. Iraqi sāʻačī "watchmaker" (think of the Saachi family).


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## ancalimon

The Turkish -cı, -çı, -ci, -çi, -cu, -çu, -cü, -çü suffix can be added to any noun or verb regardless of origin.


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## Ihsiin

fdb said:


> xurda is (I think) from Persian xurda “small”, in the sense “little things”. The jī suffix is often added to purely Arabic words, e.g. Iraqi sāʻačī "watchmaker" (think of the Saachi family).



*sāʻa*t*čī.

In Iraqi the -chi suffix is fairly productive and can be added to many words, regardless of etymological origin. Examples:
_dukānchi_ - shopkeeper, _gōlchi_ - goalkeeper, _klāwchi_ - trickster.


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## Stranger_

> xurda is (I think) from Persian



ِDefinitely so. This word is used in Emirati Arabic for "coins/change".


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## linguaquraan-alm

I will tell you  Inshaallah  the etymology of the word (Xurda) >>>>you find it's  origin in Quraan .....Have you heard the Quraanic word "Xerdel" Sura 31-Ver 16  and Sura 21 verse 47, It means something which is very very small ,indeed Xerdel=Xerd(small)+ intensive suffix al =xerdel  very very small  !!!!


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## fdb

The Arabic word _xardal_ خردل means ‘mustard, mustard seed’, and is proverbial (in Arabic and in other languages) for something very small. It is cognate with Aramaic _ḥardlā_; the further etymology is not established. The final /l/ makes a connection with Iranian _xwurd_, _xurda_ a bit difficult.


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## linguaquraan-alm

You have already said  ""and is proverbial (in Arabic and in other languages) for something very small""" so  where is the problem , if it refers to-something very small- >>> semantically it's the same   and xerdal>>>.xerdaa  cause L is sonorant  and replaced by a vowel (a) , like in ger. Klar  pronounced  as Klaa  !!!


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## Treaty

linguaquraan-alm said:


> ... so where is the problem ...



The problems are:

1. There is a _xwurd _in Middle Persian meaning "small". To put it in another way, this suggests that before any Arabic or Islamic influence on Persian, this word had existed in Persian. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely for it to be originated in Arabic and then imported to Persian. 

2. The difference between x*a*rda*l* to x*wu*rd is more than dropping of a "sonorant" L. Firstly, to my experience, Arabic L is clearly pronounced and it is very unlikely and careless to drop it, especially as we know how Arabic is keen to preserve the root letters. Secondly, "a" has changed to "u" and a consonant "w" is added in the middle of the word. In other words, this level of changes is not in accord with intra-Arabic morphology.



fdb said:


> ... Iranian _xwurd_, _xurda_ a bit difficult.



Does any other Iranian language have "xwurd"?


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## fdb

Treaty said:


> Does any other Iranian language have "xwurd"?



Only Middle and New Persian. I have played with the idea is that it is from *xwar-ta- or *xwṛ-ta “eaten”, semantically parallel to English “bit”, German “bisschen” etc.


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## ancalimon

"ısır" in Turkish, Uyghur, Yakut and Old Turkic means "to bit".


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## linguaquraan-alm

The word in Persian   (Farsi ) is (Xurd/Xurdeh )  not (Xwurd/Xwurde),  that makes difference.Do u have any Etymological Persian Dic. to look for it's origin ?? I was searching   almost  1 hour for persian etymological Dic. I found only one and it has not even mentioned this word .If you have one show me please !!!!


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## fdb

There is actually nothing more recent than Horn, “Grundriss der neupersischen Etymologie” (1863), now very much out of date. Cheung, "Etym. dictionary of the Iranian verb" covers the verbs, and nouns derived from verbal roots.

xwurd and xwurdag are Middle Persian; xurda is New Persian.


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> There is actually nothing more recent than Horn, “Grundriss der neupersischen Etymologie” (1863), now very much out of date. Cheung, "Etym. dictionary of the Iranian verb" covers the verbs, and nouns derived from verbal roots.



What about Asatryan's _Etymological Dictionary of Persian_?


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## fdb

Have you seen it? Brill advertised it as forthcoming, but then it vanished again.


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## linguaquraan-alm

I have  yesterday found  this one  but , i  did'nt   find the etymology of the word  xurdeh>>> will   you try  .....I will  upload it on Dropbox  , so  that   you can use 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl6hehd93p5luoz/EtymologicalDictionary-persian-english.pdf?dl=0


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## Treaty

fdb said:


> Have you seen it? Brill advertised it as forthcoming, but then it vanished again.


No. But I remember seeing its price on a website last year, so I thought it must have been published.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> As a side note, xurd is used in my part of the world to describe the size of a place, especially when there are two villages/towns which exist in relative close proximity and share the same name. The smaller will be x xurd and the larger x kalaan where x is the name of the place. In the UK, there is a similar situation. Little x and Great x. I think the word "kalaan" has possibly almost disappeared from the modern Persian language.





fdb said:


> [...]xwurd and xwurdag are Middle Persian; xurda is New Persian.


I have seen it written both as خورد and خرد in Persian literature.


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## linguaquraan-alm

I  do'nt know why u have not accepted my interpretation that "xurd or xurdeh " is  descendant from Xardal which means in general "small thing ".....though it"s semantically acceptable .However . i will go further in my interpretation (even you reject as maybe )to tell  you ,i have found the verb from which it came .
After searching  i found that the etymology of this word was developed and derived , following ia certain way : 
first the ar. Verb 'seghere صغر to be small  >>>>>>dexere دخر ( this verb does exist till now and  avialable in dictionaries, means the same  >>>>>>>>by virtue of metathesis it became  'xerede ' from which came the word Xerdel to give the basic meaning of  smallness. 
Moreover, in my opinion  this word appears in German as "schrott " and they use also "schrotthaendler " junk dealer   خردجي, خرده فروش 
""""""Schrott m. ‘Altmetall’. Das Substantiv Schrot (s. d.) gilt,  ausgehend von der Bedeutung ‘abgeschnittenes Stück, Klotz’, im  Niederrhein. auch für ‘Eisenabfälle, Alteisen’. Der mundartlichen  Aussprache mit kurzem Vokal folgend, wird der Ausdruck in der  Schreibweise Schrott zu Anfang des 20. Jhs. in die Literatursprache  aufgenommen. – verschrotten Vb. ‘als Altmetall verwerten’ (20.  Jh.)."""""""" 
In my opinion the word "trash "in eng. which also means 'junk" has came by virtue of metathesis as well .  

You should believe ""The Language  has no borderlines  and can jump over the borders !! it's we who made these borders """"


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