# Genitive Case in conversational German



## Linguilly Confused

Hi all. I was just wondering, in a german grammar book I have just read that the Genitive case is generally avoided because it sounds quote "stilted and old-fashioned". When I saw this I breathed a sigh of relief, thinking that I would not need to master it. However I understand that it 'must' be used after certain preposition such as statt, trotz etc. It is mentioned that in place of the genitive, often a preposition is used with the dative.

Just in general, I'd like to know roughly how much the genitive is used in conversational german. Thanks


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## Kajjo

The genitive is used very frequently and is quite important. There are some constructions in which the genitive can be replaced by a prepositional object, but there are many more situations were it cannot be substituted.

Kajjo


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## jester.

Kajjo is absolutely right, and although the importance of the genitive case in the German language is unfortunately decreasing, I'm afraid you'll have to master it in order to learn German.


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## Sepia

Linguilly Confused said:


> Hi all. I was just wondering, in a german grammar book I have just read that the Genitive case is generally avoided because it sounds quote "stilted and old-fashioned". When I saw this I breathed a sigh of relief, thinking that I would not need to master it. However I understand that it 'must' be used after certain preposition such as statt, trotz etc. It is mentioned that in place of the genitive, often a preposition is used with the dative.
> 
> Just in general, I'd like to know roughly how much the genitive is used in conversational german. Thanks



Be careful with grammar books. They exist in extremely different quality levels.


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## Kajjo

Sepia said:


> Be careful with grammar books. They exist in extremely different quality levels.


 Too true, sadly. 

Kajjo


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## ablativ

Linguilly Confused said:


> I was just wondering, in a german grammar book I have just read that the Genitive case is generally avoided because it sounds quote "stilted and old-fashioned". However I understand that it 'must' be used after certain preposition such as statt, trotz etc. It is mentioned that in place of the genitive, often a preposition is used with the dative.


 

Even though the use of the genitive case in the German language is *generally* decreasing, sometimes the genitive is being used by people making an attempt to express themselves in a overly correct and stilted way. 

After some prepostions such as "statt", the genitive *must* be used. 

After some prepositions such as "außer", the genitive *can *be used (dat. and acc. are possible, too) [ex.: ich bin außer mir -- Dativ; ich geriet außer mich -- Akk.; ich bin außer Hauses -- Gen.]. After "trotz", by the way, besides the genitive, the dative can also be used. 

There are other prepositions when the genitive *must not* be used (such as "entgegen"). *Entgegen deinen *(Dat.) *Anweisungen *, *deinen Anweisungen *(Dat.) *entgegen  *

*Entgegen deiner *(Gen.)  *Anweisungen. *The genitive may sound correct and even better than the genitive, but the use of the dative is *obligatory* here. So don't use the genitive, when it is not required and grammatically wrong.


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## flame

Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Feind!

wegen dem Schild 
wegen des Schildes 

(Beispiel aus der "Feuerzangenbowle" - Film mit Heinz Rühmann)


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## MarX

Linguilly Confused said:


> Hi all. I was just wondering, in a german grammar book I have just read that the Genitive case is generally avoided because it sounds quote "stilted and old-fashioned". When I saw this I breathed a sigh of relief, thinking that I would not need to master it. However I understand that it 'must' be used after certain preposition such as statt, trotz etc. It is mentioned that in place of the genitive, often a preposition is used with the dative.
> 
> Just in general, I'd like to know roughly how much the genitive is used in conversational german. Thanks


Hi Linguilly!

In conversational German, the genitive is barely used.
Perhaps there are regions where it is still usual in daily conversational speech, but from my experience, it is pretty stilted.
Please notice that I'm not saying that using genitive is bad. In fact, you can use it to impress people sometimes, because in daily conversations it mostly sounds unusual and sophisticated.

For example:
instead of *trotz des Regens*, you say *trotz dem Regen*.
Most say *trotzdem*, even though *trotz dessen* would be accepted as well.

The prepositions that require genitive in the grammar books are often follwed by dative instead in the spoken language.

So far I've been talking about conversational German, because that was your question.

In spite of that, a knowledge of the genitive is indispensable because in the written language, the genitive is still used almost exclusively where it is required.
Furthermore, in formal conversations genitive is still used.
In many faculties, though, using dative instead of genitive when speaking to the professors is alright, because they do it themselves.

So to sum up, in the spoken register of the German, with the exception of very formal situations, dative is mostly used. Genitive mostly sounds stilted in this case.
In the written language, almost exclusively genitive is used.

Btw, using genitive in daily speech is never wrong. Like I said, you can easily impress people by doing that. 

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,


Mark


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## Kajjo

MarX said:


> In conversational German, the genitive is barely used


@Linguilly: This information is plain wrong. I will not reply again to the same issue. Draw your own conclusions from how many people with how many postings have said the opposite.

Kajjo


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## jester.

> In fact, you can use it to impress people sometimes, because in daily conversations it mostly sounds unusual and sophisticated.


 
I wonder how you'd impress someone with a genitive case.


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## Kajjo

jester. said:


> I wonder how you'd impress someone with a genitive case.


Me too. This is absolute nonsense.

Kajjo


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## MarX

jester. said:


> I wonder how you'd impress someone with a genitive case.


Perhaps it's just my experience. 
But frequently in daily conversations, when I use the genitive as in the written language, like for example when I say "*wegen des Mannes*", my interlocutor gets impressed and say "Wow, _you_ speak excellent German!" And almost everyone who lives in Germany know _why_ this kind of a comment is uttered at all.

Hint: *Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod. *(see flame's post above)

One must be pretty indifferent to be oblivious to the fact that the genitive is rarely used in daily speech (not in formal situations or in the written language).

I can say from my experience in NRW, Hessen, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg, Mecklenburg, Berlin, Vogtland, Southern Germany, and Switzerland. I don't know if in some other areas, the genitive is prevalent in daily speech.

Btw, I personally use the genitive more frequently than the people around me.
I say for example "*wegen des Mannes*" more often than most people I know.
But I don't deny the fact that it is seldom used in the normal daily speech of most.


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## Kajjo

MarX said:


> Perhaps it's just my experience.


Yes, obviously.



> when I say "*wegen des Mannes*"


Yes, this is valid example. The preposition _wegen_ is object of much discussions and the correct genitive is increasingly substituted by dative. 

However, please note that this is just one example -- and a very much discussed example. There are extremely numerous usages of genitives in other constructions and you probably are just not aware of it. It is just plain wrong to state that the genitive is not used frequently, only because there are some prepositions that are avoided or used incorrectly.

There are many prepositions that use the genitive and they are not rarely used: abseits, angesichts, trotz, mangels, statt, während -- siehe Canoo.net: Präpositionen mit Genitiv

It is undisputed, that the genitive case is not the most frequent in the German language. But it is not _rare_ in common speech. It cannot be avoided and it is used regularly by everone. Without knowing the genitive by heart, you cannot speak even basic German. This is what the title question is about!

Kajjo


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## jester.

My question was actually a hint telling you to stop trying to explain how rare and impressive the genitive is because that statement is, as Kajjo said, nonsense. A pity you didn't understand that hint.


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## MarX

Kajjo said:


> There are many prepositions that use the genitive and they are not rarely used: abseits, angesichts, trotz, mangels, statt, während -- siehe Canoo.net: Präpositionen mit Genitiv


Yes. I won't pretend that I'm talking from my experience in conversational German, and not from Duden. Because that was Linguilly's question.

Yes. Many people do use dative after _trotz, statt, während._ Again, I'm talking from my exprerience. And I heard it from the mouths of university students. To give an idea of how prevalent the use is.
I try to use genitive in where it is required. But I am not oblivious to the fact that it is seldom used in daily conversational German (not in formal situations).


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## MarX

jester. said:


> My question was actually a hint telling you to stop trying to explain how rare and impressive the genitive is because that statement is, as Kajjo said, nonsense. A pity you didn't understand that hint.


I am simply trying to give Linguilly an idea of how the situation is here.

I was surprised myself to see how seldom genitive is used here daily conversations.


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## nichego

Kajjo said:


> It is undisputed, that the genitive case is not the most frequent in the German language. But it is not _rare_ in common speech. It cannot be avoided and it is used regualarly by everone. Without knowing the genitive by heart, you cannot speak even basic German. This is what the title question is about!


Absolutely right.

It's true that the genitive case is often avoided (or incorrectly replaced) in common speech but it's not like you could talk very much without the genitive at all. (Although you would probably "get through")

BTW: Of course, you can impress people by talking correct German. It is considered a difficult language, after all. (Using the genetive where native speakers won't is not necessary for that.)


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## Suilan

There are many different uses of the genitive case. It might help to look at them seperately:

*Genitivus explicativus*: Irrsinn des Krieges, Laster der Trunksucht, das Buch der Bücher

*Genitivus partitivus*: die Hälfte meines Vermögens, die ältere der beiden Schwestern, 10% unserer Einnahmen; eine Gruppe krakelender Kinder

*Genitivus possessivus*: das Auto meiner Mutter, die Tiere des Waldes, Hennings Motorrad

*Genitivus qualitatis*: eine Person mittleren Alters, Kunstschätze aller Art
(this form is not very "productive"; the above expressions are fixed and thus common)

*Genitivus subiectivus*: Die Ankunft des Zuges, die Behauptung der Angeklagten

(subiectivus because: Der Zug kommt an. Die Angeklagte behauptet.)

*Genitivus obiectivus*: die Belagerung der Stadt, der Verkauf des Hauses

(obiectivus because: Die Römer belagerten die Stadt; Die Erben verkauften das Haus.)

All of the above examples of the genitive case are common and necessary and not in the least stilted. 

Instead of the g. possessivus and the g. partitivus, the "von" construction is often used in speech (but *not* always possible, e.g. die Tiere vom Wald). Also, the von-construction is often considered very inelegant/lower class and not to be recommended unless you have a good feeling for the language and know when it would "sound" OK. 

*Genitivobjekt*

Wer nimmt sich des Problems an? --> Wer kümmert sich um das Problem?
Er bedarf dringend meiner Hilfe. --> Er braucht dringend meine Hilfe.

The use of the genitive *object* sounds indeed formal and a bit stilted. All the previous examples of genitive were genitive *attributes* (i.e. following a noun which they modify).

*Genitive + prepositions*

prepositions like: abzüglich, einschließlich, innerhalb, längs, laut, mittels, statt, trotz, während, wegen take the genitive case. *But* if they are followed by a single noun (no adjective or article) in the singular that would form the genitive with -(e)s, the (e)s is often dropped.

- wegen Umbau geschlossen
- wegen Umbaus geschlossen

Both are correct in written or spoken German. It has nothing to do with the genitive supposedly disappearing from speech.

As soon as you add an adjective or article, this rule no longer applies.

- wegen erneuter Anfrage 
- wegen einer Anfrage
- wegen einer erneuten Anfrage
-  wegen erneute Anfrage
-  wegen eine Anfrage
-  wegen eine erneute Anfrage

The above examples "wegen erneuter Anfrage" and "wegen einer (erneuten) Anfrage" could be either genitive or dative; the form is indistinguishable. 



(P.S. Die lateinische Kategorisierung und einige der Beispiele sind aus Duden #9, 2001 entnommen.)


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## Kajjo

Excellent, Suilan! Thanks for this contribution and your efforts!

Kajjo


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## cyanista

Suilan said:


> There are many different uses of the genitive case. It might help to look at them separately


As the question was about _conversational_ use, it might have helped if you pointed out what is likely to be used in common speech. As far as I can see, Germans more or less commonly use Genitivus partitivus and possessivus but are prone to replace even them with the Dative (_die ältere von den beiden, das Auto von meinem Vater_). I have yet to hear someone say "Irrsinn des Krieges" in a normal daily conversation.  Genitivobjekt and prepositions like _angesichts_ or _mittels_ are used exclusively in written formal language. _Laut, statt, wegen_ and _während_ are very commonly used with the Dative.


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## Suilan

> As the question was about _conversational_ use, it might have helped if you pointed out what is likely to be used in common speech.


 
I did several times.



> As far as I can see, Germans more or less commonly use Genitivus partitivus and possessivus but are prone to replace even them with the Dative (_die ältere von den beiden, das Auto von meinem Vater_).


 
No single person can make any valid statement about what is or what is not commonly used in conversation. All anyone can say (unless s/he collected and analyzed representative field data) is what is commonly used in conversation s/he has had, which is obviously heavily influenced by where she lives and how educated the people are that s/he normally talks to. Also, who really pays that much attention to grammar in conversation that s/he could make statements about how often she heard this compared to that? Honestly?

P.S. I am just a little fed up with people claiming such things with no other proof than: "I've heard" or "I haven't heard" and then getting upset with another person who has made different experiences.


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## jester.

cyanista said:


> As the question was about _conversational_ use, it might have helped if you pointed out what is likely to be used in common speech. As far as I can see, Germans more or less commonly use Genitivus partitivus and possessivus but are prone to replace even them with the Dative (_die ältere von den beiden, das Auto von meinem Vater_). I have yet to hear someone say "Irrsinn des Krieges" in a normal daily conversation.  Genitivobjekt and prepositions like _angesichts_ or _mittels_ are used exclusively in written formal language. _Laut, statt, wegen_ and _während_ are very commonly used with the Dative.



I'm sorry, Cyanista, your observations are not quite correct.

1. I'm definitely not prone to say "die Ältere von den beiden" in an attempt to replace the genitive.

2. How would you paraphrase "Irrsinn des Krieges" in a normal daily conversation and what is a normal daily conversation? I can imagine myself talking about the war in an informal conversation* and I don't think that "Irrsinn des Krieges" would raise eyebrows.

3. I think I don't use "mittels" very regularly but I definitely do use "angesichts"*.

*Just in case you wonder: Yes, I would also use these expressions with people of my age.


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## MarX

Linguilly Confused said:


> Hi all. I was just wondering, in a german grammar book I have just read that the Genitive case is generally avoided because it sounds quote "stilted and old-fashioned". When I saw this I breathed a sigh of relief, thinking that I would not need to master it. However I understand that it 'must' be used after certain preposition such as statt, trotz etc. It is mentioned that in place of the genitive, often a preposition is used with the dative.
> 
> Just in general, I'd like to know roughly how much the genitive is used in conversational german. Thanks


Hi Linguilly!

As you see from the previous replies. There are people who use much genitive, and there are ones who barely use it.
Where I (have) live(d) and in my environments so far, genitive is seldom used. I belong to the minority in my environment who still uses more genitive, and I do keep on hearing surprised and/or impressed comments from other speakers.
What your grammar book says is not totally wrong. Genitive can be stilted and unusual at times. But in the end, you decide whether you want to conform to the way German native speakers around you speak (when you're in areas in Germany where the genitive is hardly ever used), or you can keep on using your "correct" German as taught in prescriptive grammar books, as I've been trying to do (It's not as easy as you think to maintain using genitive when like everybody around you use dative).

All in all, you'll notice there is a substantial difference in the use of genitive between written and spoken German. In some cases the discrepancy is large, in others it's smaller.

The mastery of the genitive is indispensable for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Even the people who use dative almost exclusively in the spoken language would use genitive when writing.

You can get a picture of the situation when you live here yourself. I don't want to give you misinformantion. Perhaps when you come here, you'll actually land in a millieu where genitive is used very often.

HTH!

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,


MarK


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## cyanista

Suilan said:


> No single person can make any valid statement about what is or what is not commonly used in conversation. All anyone can say (unless s/he collected and analyzed representative field data) is what is commonly used in conversation s/he has had, which is obviously heavily influenced by where she lives and how educated the people are that s/he normally talks to. Also, who really pays that much attention to grammar in conversation that s/he could make statements about how often she heard this compared to that? Honestly?


I wrote my answer after a few pople have done exactly that what you describe here. We can make generalizations, however limited, on the basis of not only our own conversations but also those in the street, in the shops, on the tram and so on. (I admire your subtlety in hinting on the level of my friends' education. )I haven't claimed mine is a "valid statement", MarX have explicitly spoken about "his experience", too. But I would be thrilled if Kajjo would respond to your question. 



> P.S. I am just a little fed up with people claiming such things with no other proof than: "I've heard" or "I haven't heard" and then getting upset with another person who has made different experiences.


I am more than just a little fed up with exactly the same thing.


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## cyanista

jester. said:


> I'm sorry, Cyanista, your observations are not quite correct.
> 
> 1. I'm definitely not prone to say "die Ältere von den beiden" in an attempt to replace the genitive.


So what do we do, conduct a poll? A few millions would be representative enough.


> 2. How would you paraphrase "Irrsinn des Krieges" in a normal daily conversation and what is a normal daily conversation? I can imagine myself talking about the war in an informal conversation* and I don't think that "Irrsinn des Krieges" would raise eyebrows.


Please model a colloquial conversation about "Irrsinn des Krieges". Sorry but what I can imagine (my poor education not helping) reeks of false pathetics.


> 3. I think I don't use "mittels" very regularly but I definitely do use "angesichts"*.
> 
> *Just in case you wonder: Yes, I would also use these expressions with people of my age.


I believe you, of course. See reply to point 1 for further suggestions.


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## Suilan

> I admire your subtlety in hinting on the level of my friends' education


 
That is your interpretation. From what I wrote you could just as well have concluded that your friends speak a regional variant of German which favors the dative. Besides, you didn't mention your friends in your post and I had no reason to suspect that they were the only people you spoke German to.


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## Sepia

Here is a new thread that adds information to this subject.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=664626


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## zpoludnia swiata

Maybe this controversy could be put to rest by accessing a corpus of spoken German.  I'm pretty sure there is one.  You could find out what the frequency of use is for various forms (dative vs. genetive constructions).


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## flame

cyanista said:


> As the question was about _conversational_ use, it might have helped if you pointed out what is likely to be used in common speech. As far as I can see, Germans more or less commonly use Genitivus partitivus and possessivus but are prone to replace even them with the Dative (_die ältere von den beiden, das Auto von meinem Vater_). I have yet to hear someone say "Irrsinn des Krieges" in a normal daily conversation.  Genitivobjekt and prepositions like _angesichts_ or _mittels_ are used exclusively in written formal language. _Laut, statt, wegen_ and _während_ are very commonly used with the Dative.


 
Has anyone yet thought of introducing the element of "dialect" into the discussion? Where in the German speaking geography do we find a place where we full-heartedly can say:"Yes they do speak pure high German, even in conversational use!"

To my extend the area which comes closest to the books is Hannover, and people there do use the genitive quite a lot (note: this is opinion, not fact).

I note as well that in my office in Vienna, when people are amongst themselves, the various substitution forms are used, whereas most people switch to a "higher" German using genitives when in official meetings, customer conversations etc. (except me - I am terribly lost in my local dialect).

*Suilan*: great posting - thanks!


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## jester.

cyanista said:


> So what do we do, conduct a poll? A few millions would be representative enough.



That would be a bit exaggerated, wouldn't it? Anyway, what is the purpose of this thread? Belittling the importance of the genitive? Overestimating it? This thread has become an exchange of personal opinions. Not more, not less.



> Please model a colloquial conversation about "Irrsinn des Krieges". Sorry but what I can imagine (my poor education not helping) reeks of false pathetics.



Well, if by "colloquial conversation" you understand gossip about the weather and similar subjects, there is of course no way anyone would even start to talk about the war. But in my colloquial conversations (still not sure what that strictly means) I tend to discuss many subjects of common interest (including topics like war and others which might appear in the press, for example).

And don't write things like "my poor eductaion". You're smarter than that.


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## Linguilly Confused

Wow this thread has received quite a bit of attention. First of all, thank you for everyone's input. I believe I understand the situation. I think there is a slightly similar case with the imperfect subjunctive in Italian and Spanish, where the imperfect is used in place on the subjunctive often enough among less polished speakers or in very casual speech. I know it's not the same thing but it may be similar. I can't believe the amount of times I find myself saying "Se io ero" or "Si yo era" or "If I was", but oh well, pobody's nerfect.

Also, I don't see why certain individuals need to get irritated when people share the state of affairs of the Genitive in the area they live. If someone says that in his area the genitive is seldom used or that use of the Genitive case comes with an air of prententiousness or pedantry, or perhaps that it simply sounds a little out of place given what the social expectation is, it is not a fair cause to attack him or label him ignorant. People here are simply sharing their experiences. No one individual here speaks for all german speakers rather each person is just sharing his experiences.


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## jester.

> Also, I don't see why certain individuals need to get irritated when people share the state of affairs of the Genitive in the area they live. If someone says that in his area the genitive is seldom used or that use of the Genitive case comes with an air of prententiousness or pedantry, or perhaps that it simply sounds a little out of place given what the social expectation is, it is not a fair cause to attack him or label him ignorant. People here are simply sharing their experiences. No one individual here speaks for all german speakers rather each person is just sharing his experiences.



That is very diplomatic of you, but let me ask you one thing? What are you planning to learn? Standard German or countless regional varieties from several different countries?


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## Linguilly Confused

I plan on learning standard German and not 'countless regional varieties' as you put it. What I intended to point out is that some individuals were becoming upset at the fact that some took the liberty to do nothing more than share the current status of the Genitive where they live; as if it were a proclamation of the status of the Genitive for the whole of Germany.


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## Suilan

Please show me the line where anyone labelled another ignorant? The irritation began for me when someone first claimed that my reply had nothing to do with the original question, and then twisted my words around, accusing me of insulting her friends.


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## Linguilly Confused

You misunderstand me Suilan. I didn't say anybody labelled anyone else ignorant. I simply said it is not called for to form a negative opinion of someone based on the fact that they stated something about German corresponding to how it's spoken where they are located. I was given the impression that some were losing patience with people that would say that the Genitive isn't used all that often when for all anyone knows, it may very well be the case in his or her part.


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## Jana337

I'm afraid this thread has exhausted its constructive potential.


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