# To "keep schtum"? [shtum, shtoom, stumm] - pronunciation and origin



## James Brandon

"To keep stum" is "to remain silent" or "to say nothing", as I understand. I wanted to check:-

(a) How is "stum" pronounced? 
(b) What the origin of the phrase is, if anyone has any idea. 

A quick look on the web has not been very helpful. 

Thanks 

James


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## Diablo919

Shtum: from yiddish: silent


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## xqby

I can't say I've ever heard that one before!
There's a similar phrase I'm familiar with, which is: "to keep mum."

Rather in-depth article about the phrase's origins.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Are you sure you mean "stum", and not "mum"?  To _keep mum_ has been a standard expression for centuries.


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## Trisia

Actually, I knew it as "shtum" (the pronunciation is obvious here), probably Yiddish.


EDIT: From Wikipedia: *Yinglish*


> *Shtum* — quiet (שטום _shtum_ 'mute') (German _stumm_)


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## bibliolept

I've encountered both "stum" and "shtum"; based on the sources, I'd have spelled it "shtum." I always assumed this phrase was more prevalent in BE. I have heard it pronounced "shtum," and found it interesting that it parallels the "shhhh" noise.


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## El escoces

> I can't say I've ever heard that one before!
> There's a similar phrase I'm familiar with, which is: "to keep mum."


 
No, it's _shtum_, I think, but I can't help you on the origin. You hear it portrayed in TV dramas, movies etc set in London's East End.


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## El escoces

Ah yes, I see from Wiktionary that the origin is Yiddish. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shtum


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## Nunty

I know it in Yiddish pronounced _shtum_ and meaning "mute". I didn't know it had worked its way into English.


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## gasman

My father brought the word with him from Eastern Europe at the turn of the last century, and he pronounced it "shtum". He used the word to mean being quiet, holding your tongue, admitting to nothing. "Sit shtum"


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## James Brandon

OK, so it is a Yiddish word, and the pronunciation would be 'stum' or 'shtum' as in 'sh' (e.g.: 'a share', 'the shape of') followed by /u/ as in 'full' or 'put' or 'too' and not as in 'duck' or 'cut' or 'luck'.

The connection with the East End of London would make sense, since many East European Jews that arrived in Britain in the late 19th century settled down in the East End, initially - it was the poorer part of London where immigrants would settle down (hence Bangladeshi residents today continuing this tradition).


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## sdgraham

Stumm (pronounced shtumm) is a perfectly good German word meaning silent or mute.

Since both Yiddish and modern German have common roots, the similarity is not surprising.

We used it in my family because of the German influence, but obviously that's not the only source.


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## El escoces

> I know it in Yiddish pronounced _shtum_ and meaning "mute". I didn't know it had worked its way into English.


 
It has indeed N-T and as I said earlier it has become, through the popular media, even more widespread.  If not in everyday usage, now not far off it.


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## Loob

El escoces said:


> It has indeed N-T and as I said earlier it has become, through the popular media, even more widespread. If not in everyday usage, now not far off it.


I very much agree with Scottie: even BrE speakers who don't use it would almost certainly understand it.  The pronunciation is exactly as described by James Brandon in post 11.


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## mancunienne girl

No Yiddish speakers in my family, or indeed any Jewish or German connections. However, my 60+ year old mother uses the expression 'keep stum' all the time, and pronounced it with the 'sh'


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## Porteño

Well, it's certainly a new one to me. I confess I've never heard it in my life and I did spend a fair amount of it in the UK.


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## Loob

As regards the spelling in BrE - the OED gives "schtoom", "shtoom", "shtum(m)", followed by the all-important "etc".  The examples given include ones with "stumm".

In other words: we agree on how we say it, but we don't know how to write it


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## James Brandon

If the word is of Yiddish origin, it would have been written in Hebrew characters, and then a lot of transcription issues arise, so that many different spellings would be possible - some closer to the phonetic transcription that would appear more 'natural' to an English-speaker, presumably. This should not come as a surprise - the spelling issue, I mean.

That Yiddish and German share many roots/words is undeniable, so it is not surprising either that there would be a German word that is very similar. A Yiddish origin sounds more likely to me, though, given the overall context and remarks made by various contributors - and the East End connection.


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## ewie

It's very familiar to me; almost certain I've used it.
My dictionary of slang only gives (somewhat feebly) the spelling _shtum_.


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## Mr Punch

As another Brit, I've heard it a lot too. Of course, it's a separate history and usage to 'keep mum'.

And as with everyone else I've heard 'shtum' and always assumed the 'stum' spelling, though I would think 'shtum' would be fine.



mancunienne girl said:


> However, my 60+ year old mother uses the expression 'keep stum' all the time, and pronounced it with the 'sh'


Why, what are you doing that's so bad so much?!


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## Nunty

James Brandon said:


> If the word is of Yiddish origin, it would have been written in Hebrew characters, and then a lot of transcription issues arise, so that many different spellings would be possible - some closer to the phonetic transcription that would appear more 'natural' to an English-speaker, presumably. This should not come as a surprise - the spelling issue, I mean.
> 
> That Yiddish and German share many roots/words is undeniable, so it is not surprising either that there would be a German word that is very similar. A Yiddish origin sounds more likely to me, though, given the overall context and remarks made by various contributors - and the East End connection.


I agree with James.

Also the regional differences in Yiddish mean that when people emigrated, so did their regional pronunciations (_shtum_/_shtim_), which probably also played a role in how the word is pronounced in English by English speakers. 

Yiddish is based largely on Middle German, so it is not in the least surprising that the same word is used in modern German and modern Yiddish.

And now I'll sit stum because I am merrily wandering off the track.


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## mancunienne girl

Mr Punch said:
			
		

> Why, what are you doing that's so bad so much?!




Now, chance would be a fine thing.......


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## David

The question about spelling might be resolved as follows:

Some people translate Yiddish words in English using a phonetic English spelling, so שטום becomes _shtum,_ the letter ש having the pronunciation _sh._

Because it is primarily a dialect of German however, some people transliterate Yiddish words into English using phonetic German spelling. In German, the combination _st_ is pronounced _sht_ (e.g. _Stelle_, place). Either way, the Yiddish word when used in English is pronounced _shtum_, with the _u_ of _put_, not the _u_ of _cup,_


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## kenny4528

[Note: Threads have been merged at this point.  DonnyB - moderator]

Hi all, I just learned the phrase "to keep schtum" meaning to be quite, which is defined as BE usage in my dictionary. I am wondering if AE speakers are familiar this term, or use it occasionally?



> You'd better keep schtum. The President is speaking!


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## baa7ith

At first I thought it sounded like a word that has been imported from Yiddish.  I can say it rings a bell, but it's not something I can put a finger on ever hearing before, much less using.  But, the connotation seems vaguely familiar.

The language of origin seems to be a common misconception:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/215700.html


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## kenny4528

baa7ith said:


> At first it sounded like a word that has been imported from Yiddish. I can say it rings a bell, but it's not something I can put a finger on ever hearing before, much less using. But, the connotation seems vaguely familiar.
> 
> The language of origin seems to be a common misconception:
> 
> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/215700.html


 
Thank you~


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## bibliolept

I'm familiar with it, but I know that the majority of AE speakers have probably not encountered it outside of BE novels or perhaps movies.


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## sdgraham

"Shtum" is spelled in various ways and comes from Yiddish, which, in turn, comes from old German. 

It's quite familiar to those of us who have lived in areas with strong Jewish influence, which, as I understand it, includes London's East End as well as New York, Chicago, etc.

It means "quiet" not "quite" as you wrote.


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## JamesM

I have heard it in Los Angeles, but I have only heard it occasionally.


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## George French

There appear to be 4 spellings of this word in use. You can find them here:- http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/SCHTUM.

GF..

<< Moderator's note: The other three spellings are: -shtum, shtoom, stumm. >>


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## jinstpete

i first heard it in the movie "sexy beast", whcih is quitre a few years old now.  It was clear from the context what it meant, not to mention it sounds a bit "mum", as in "keep mum."  And, to me it was obviously German, I didn't think about Yiddish.

I was interested as to why a British gangster would be using a German word for mum but I guess the Yiddish origin at least partly makes it a little more understandable how that came about.  I guess there was a time when Yiddish provided alot of terms for the criminal underworld.  

If you Google around for the "gunsel"  "gunsell"  "ganzel", as used in the Bogart movie "The Maltese Falcon" you'll see an interesting story along the same lines relating to Yiddish slang and its use.


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## sandpiperlily

I know it from Yiddish, but I doubt it would be common outside of areas with a high Jewish population.


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## Packard

My grandmother and my father both spoke Yiddish. I picked up a few words here and there. I don't recall having ever heard "shtum" spoken. But the "sht..." sound is distinctly Yiddish/German and I would assume it to be Yiddish.


Sandpiper,

You wrote: _I know it from Yiddish,..._

It is more properly phrased as such:

_I know from Yiddish..._ (A joke. Phrased like this it means that you are knowledgeable about Yiddish.)


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## Myridon

I have read "The Joy of Yiddish".  I have tchotchkes on my shelves.  I know "bupkis" from "butt kiss" (unlike most Texans).  I'm not familiar with "shtum".


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## Parla

sdgraham said:


> It's quite familiar to those of us who have lived in areas with strong Jewish influence, which, as I understand it, includes London's East End as well as New York, Chicago, etc.



I live in New York, but I've never heard it or seen it until now.


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## -mack-

I'm from the Midwest, have been living in Los Angeles for three years, never heard that phrase before and would have no idea what it meant if someone said it to me.


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## JamesM

It shows up quite often in online blogs and news articles:

http://news.google.com/news/search?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=schtum
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=shtum

It's pretty interesting that the examples range from technology magazines to Hollywood gossip to sports news.


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## Raeka

I grew up in the 1960s and 70s in a Jewish area of Chicago and heard many Yiddish terms, but I don't recall ever hearing this one.


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## Fabulist

It's a new one on me.


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## margiemarz

Stumm means mute, quiet, unspeaking, etc.  Therefore _Keep Stumm_ must mean keep quiet.  However, my parents, both German, would shout "Still sein!!" when they wanted us to be quiet
In one of the songs from Hansel and Gretel, in German, of course, the children describe a Mannlein (mushroom) in the woods as both _still_ and _stumm_.


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## Ren Anchovie

Michael Palin used the phrase when he played criminal low-life Luigi Vercotti in the Doug and Dinsdale Piranha sketch on Monty Python, episode 14. He received a call while being interviewed; it was obviously about an illicit deal. At one point he breathed the warning "stumm, stumm" into the receiver. < ---- >



<Unapproved video link removed.  Cagey, moderator.>


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## curiosone

I can confirm this term didn't cross the Cumberland Gap into Appalachia or Kentucky (and I doubt it ever made it to Virginia, either).


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## dojibear

I don't think it is common among English speakers. I've never heard it. I grew up in New York, then lived around Boston for years. Between friends and TV entertainers I've heard many Yiddish words, but not this one.

The WordReference dictionary lists "shtoom" as a "slang" word meaning "quiet", especially in the phrase "keep shtoom". It says the word come from Yiddish, and originally from German.


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## london calling

According to  phrases.org.uk it's 'British and fairly recent. It has the sound of a Yiddish phrase but it is more likely that it originated in the UK criminal community'.


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## Loob

L_c beat me to it! 
It's pretty well known over here, I'd say.


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## Andygc

OED 3rd Edition December 2019


> *Origin: *A borrowing from Yiddish. *Etymon:* Yiddish _shtum_.
> *Etymology: * <  Yiddish _shtum_ <  Middle High German _stum_  silent, mute (Old High German _stum_ , German _stumm_ ), cognate with Middle Dutch _stum_ , _stom_  (Dutch _stom_ ), Old Saxon _stumm_  (Middle Low German _stum_ )  <  an ablaut variant of the Germanic base of stammer v.
> 
> _colloquial_ (_British_ and in Jewish usage).
> 
> *Silent; quiet; not saying a word. Esp. in  to keep (or stay) shtum*


First citation 1958


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## kentix

Well if it was in Monty Python it has to have been around for awhile.

I've never heard it used myself.


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## bennymix

I've never heard in in So. California or in the northeast (New Jersey, New York.)   But I don't know the Yiddish areas of NYC.


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## london calling

kentix said:


> Well if it was in Monty Python it has to have been around for awhile.
> 
> I've never heard it used myself.


It's pre-Python.


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## bennymix

london calling said:


> It's pre-Python.



I'm sure there were Yiddish speakers in US since civil war times, and even earlier (1830) in Massachusetts, for example.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

I think it probably wouldn't be understood by the majority of AE speakers. Does Yiddish have regional dialects?


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## london calling

bennymix said:


> I'm sure there were Yiddish speakers in US since civil war times, and even earlier (1830) Massachusetts.


But it's British. The OED above dates it to 1958. The other source says 'recent' (I suppose 1958 is relatively recent).


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## Hermione Golightly

> Jews in New York City comprise approximately 13 percent of the city's population, making the Jewish community the largest in the world outside of Israel. As of 2014, *1.1 million* Jews live in the five boroughs of New York City, and *2 million* Jews live in New York State overall.


[WIKI]
It was extremely common to hear Yiddish spoken in Manhattan where I lived for ten years. I can't recall how I know 'shtum', but it was before I went to NYC, and Germany before that. Maybe I heard in my home city in the north east which has a large Jewish population. My uncle married into a family of German-Jewish origin, so maybe he learnt and used it.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

In the example in the OP, it seems to mean 'Be silent/Shut up/Button your lip/Zip it."
I gather though that it's more likely to mean "Don't talk about this subject [it's supposed to be a secret].", as in the Monty Python skit.


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## Loob

Yes, it can mean "keep a secret".

(The TV programme bell it rings with me is _Only Fools and Horses _rather than_ Monty Python._)


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## Andygc

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> In the example in the OP, it seems to mean 'Be silent/Shut up/Button your lip/Zip it."



NOTE: This thread has been merged and edited since that post, and "the example in the OP" is here To "keep schtum"? [shtum, shtoom, stumm] - pronunciation and origin

We don't know where that comes from. As far as I'm concerned it's a misuse. Keeping shtum isn't merely being quiet, it's keeping quiet about something that might be sensitive or secret. Like Loob, I associate it more with the shady dealings of _Only Fools and Horses_ than with the enjoyable silliness of _Monty Python's Flying Circus_.


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## Szkot

london calling said:


> According to  phrases.org.uk it's 'British and fairly recent. It has the sound of a Yiddish phrase but it is more likely that it originated in the UK criminal community'.


I wonder why they don't think it could be both.   The East End of London provides an obvious place for a crossover, with Frank Norman spreading it to the wider (British) world.

It appears in the Corpus of Modern Yiddish, spelt 'shtum'.


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## london calling

Szkot said:


> I wonder why they don't think it could be both.   The East End of London provides an obvious place for a crossover, with Frank Norman spreading it to the wider (British) world.


Don't ask me, ask them. 😊


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## RM1(SS)

James Brandon said:


> as in 'full' or 'put' or 'too'


That's two different vowels to me.


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## london calling

RM1(SS) said:


> That's two different vowels to me.


And to me.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Likewise.


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## natkretep

Ditto. It's only pronounced with the short vowel of _put _in my experience.


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## Loob

Szkot said:


> I wonder why they don't think it could be both.


I think the initial aim of this thread* was, indeed, to find out if it is both. Judging by the answers, it isn't.

________

* _Edit__: I see that the 2010 thread asking if it's AmE as well as BrE has now been merged with an older one. But my point still stands_


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