# Ukrainian: Vladimir vs. Volodymyr



## Packard

I noticed recently a shift in the spelling of Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s first name in news reports.

I am guessing that either:


I did not notice this shift earlier
This is a simple correction of Zelenskyy’s name like the additional “y” was earlier.
An effort to distance his first name from Putin’s

Any thoughts on the story behind the spelling change?


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## bennymix

> 48. Volodymyr​It is a Ukrainian form of Slavic Vladimir. The meaning of this name comes from the famous ruler.



From a list of Ukrainian names.
Top 100 Ukrainian Boy & Girl Names With Meanings


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## AndrasBP

In case you weren't aware, Slavic *Vladimir *is the "same" name as Germanic *Waldemar/Voldemar*.


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## Packard

So this is just journalists catching on the spelling?  It is not social commentary in any way?


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## jasio

Wikipedia (Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Wikipedia) says that he was born and "grew up as native Russian speaker" and Ukrainian is only his second language - like in case of many people from Eastern Ukraine. He also "worked mostly in Russian language productions". So it's not a surprise that he used a Russian form of his first name, Владимир (Зеленский, Владимир Александрович — Википедия). Nowadays he may prefer to use a Ukrainian form instead (Зеленський Володимир Олександрович — Вікіпедія).

Not sure, when he started using the Ukrainian spelling of his first name (and of his father's name as well, which in those cultures is a part of the individual's name); when the English-speaking media changed the transliteration is a separate topic. Perhaps they now use more Ukrainian sources, perhaps the president's PR department puts more attention to it.

Nothing unusual at war time, btw. For comparison you may refer to the history of the Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha dynasty, which has been ruling the UK for more than a century now - although Mr. Zelenskyy case seems to be justified much better, as he only followed his language preference.


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## ahvalj

From what I understand, this is purely automatic. Any Russian name is ukrainized in a Ukrainian context and vice versa, unless a special stylistic effect is implied. During totalitarianism, when passports and other documents were routinely issued in two languages, each had the name and surname written according to the respective norm, and both were considered equally official.


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## ahvalj

AndrasBP said:


> In case you weren't aware, Slavic *Vladimir *is the "same" name as Germanic *Waldemar/Voldemar*.


It's most probably East Germanic (Gothic etc.) in origin: in these languages _ē>ī,_ unlike in West and North Germanic, where _ē>ā,_ and Gothic/Vandalic/etc. names in _-mir_ (though not _*Waldamir_ itself) are abundantly attested (e. g. _Valamir~Valamer_).

The ancient Slavs adopted this name with _-měrъ_ (the original East Germanic and the etymological Slavic — if it did survive — variant), _-mirъ_ and _-merъ._

The variant with _Vla-_ is Bulgarian in origin, with _Volo-_ is East Slavic. The original non-metathesized form was _Wal-,_ attested in Byzantine sources (_Βαλδίμερ_).

_-i-_ is a Slavic connecting vowel (cognate to the Lithuanian _-i-_ in _Algimantas_ etc., though in Slavic it comes from_ *ī or *ei̯, _as in verbs like _minėti, minite_ with a short _i_ vs. _mьněti, mьnite_ with an etymological _ī or *ei̯_), which casually became identical with the imperative suffix, so, contrary to the popular belief, Vladimir does not mean “rule the world!”, it means “glorious through power”. Its Slavic calque is _Vladislavъ_.


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## AndrasBP

ahvalj said:


> The variant with _Vla-_ is Bulgarian in origin, with _Volo-_ is East Slavic.


I've always wondered why the endeared form of V*la*dimir is V*olo*dya. 
Do you know if the Southern and Eastern Slavic versions have always coexisted in Russian?
Has the form "Volodimir" ever been used, in dialects perhaps?


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## ahvalj

Just for the context — _Путін Володимир Володимирович_ that is _Volodymyr Putin_.


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## ahvalj

AndrasBP said:


> I've always wondered why the endeared form of V*la*dimir is V*olo*dya.
> Do you know if the Southern and Eastern Slavic versions have always coexisted in Russian?
> Has the form "Volodimir" ever been used, in dialects perhaps?


_Volo-_ continues the folk East Slavic form, _Vla-_ the solemn official Church Slavonic one, hence their modern stylistic divergence. For example, here is a coin of Vladimir the Great, a millennium old, with the name spelled _Vladimirъ_:







All forms (with _Vla-/Volo-_ and even _Vlo-_ and with _-mirъ/-měrъ/-merъ_) coexisted in texts. The (later) manuscript of the first dated Old East Slavic prose — Слово о законѣ и благодѣти… (check the radio button _оригинал _at the top), originally written in 1051, uses _похвала кагану нашему Влодимеру / каганъ нашь Влодимеръ / кагана нашеа земли Володимера / кагану Ярославу, сыну Владимирю_ — that is, both _Vlod-_ (most probably a scribal merger of _Volod-_ and _Vlad-,_ hardly a Polish influence), _Volod_- and _Vlad_-.


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## Packard

Is there a pronunciation difference?  How many syllables?  Listening to American journalists, it sounds like two syllables.  Looking at the spellings, it appears to be three.


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## AndrasBP

Packard said:


> Is there a pronunciation difference? How many syllables? Listening to American journalists, it sounds like two syllables.


Only two? "Vladmir"? 

Vladimir: three
Volodymyr: four

In both Russian and Ukrainian, the stress is on the "dim" syllable.


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## Packard

My hearing is not the best, but I hear “vlad-mir” when the news people say it.  If you speak “vlad-mir” it falls between two and three syllables.


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## AndrasBP

Packard said:


> but I hear “vlad-mir” when the news people say it.


Okay, that's the anglicized pronunciation.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> Any Russian name is ukrainized in a Ukrainian context and vice versa


Pretty much that. Curiously, first names are also habitually translated between Russian and Georgian where applicable (Mikhail <> Mikheil, Pyotr <> Petre, Dmitriy <> Dimitri, etc.), but not between Georgian and Ukrainian.


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## pimlicodude

ahvalj said:


> It's most probably East Germanic (Gothic etc.) in origin: in these languages _ē>ī,_ unlike in West and North Germanic, where _ē>ā,_ and Gothic/Vandalic/etc. names in _-mir_ (though not _*Waldamir_ itself) are abundantly attested (e. g. _Valamir~Valamer_).
> 
> The ancient Slavs adopted this name with _-měrъ_ (the original East Germanic and the etymological Slavic — if it did survive — variant), _-mirъ_ and _-merъ._
> 
> The variant with _Vla-_ is Bulgarian in origin, with _Volo-_ is East Slavic. The original non-metathesized form was _Wal-,_ attested in Byzantine sources (_Βαλδίμερ_).
> 
> _-i-_ is a Slavic connecting vowel (cognate to the Lithuanian _-i-_ in _Algimantas_ etc., though in Slavic it comes from_ *ī or *ei̯, _as in verbs like _minėti, minite_ with a short _i_ vs. _mьněti, mьnite_ with an etymological _ī or *ei̯_), which casually became identical with the imperative suffix, so, contrary to the popular belief, Vladimir does not mean “rule the world!”, it means “glorious through power”. Its Slavic calque is _Vladislavъ_.


If Vladimir is ultimately Gothic, then what about the apparent meaning of the name in Russian? Vladimir seems to mean "rule the world" or something like that (compare Vladivostock, interpreted as "Rule the East", Vladikavkaz and some others). Is this a kind of false etymology, ascribing a Slavic meaning to name that is ultimately just a foreign borrowing?


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## Awwal12

pimlicodude said:


> If Vladimir is ultimately Gothic, then what about the apparent meaning of the name in Russian?


It has been re-analyzed, obviously, and even slightly reshaped later, as the earliest attested forms of the same name are Volodim*ě*rŭ/Vladim*ě*rŭ (~"the one who owns _a measure_"). Something which isn't unique at all (cf. Slavicized Norse names like Rogvolodŭ < *Rag(n)valðr from the chronicles, or, in Western Europe, Latinized Rollon < Hrolfr).


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> Slavicized Norse names like *Rogvolodŭ*


Does this name have a modern version?


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## Awwal12

AndrasBP said:


> Does this name have a modern version?


No. It wasn't a princely name of the Rurikids (unlike Oleg, Olga, Igor and Gleb), so it never was canonized and thus hasn't survived. Probably some Neo-Pagans might actually want to use it, but it would be highly marginal anyway.


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## ahvalj

This root _-mir_ has become with time just a formal element added to various stems and producing, especially in South Slavic languages, diverse and sometimes bizarre outcomes.

In the earliest East Slavic texts, we find the following.

Old Novgorod dialect — _Зализняк АА · 2004 · ‹Древненовгородский диалект›: _838, 204 (for unknown reasons given in their southern East Slavic forms, not in the shape they actually had in that dialect):
​_Tvorimirъ_​_Sutimirъ_​_Vidomirъ_​_Žiznomirъ_​_Jaromirъ_​_Solьmirъ_ (from *_Solimirъ_ ? — p. 69)​_Stanimirъ~Stanьmirъ_​_Ratьmirъ_ (from *_Ratimirъ_ ? — p. 69, 468) — Old Polish has _Racimiar<*Ratiměrъ _(p. 468)​
Also _Ostromirъ_

General older East Slavic (with some Polish) — _Литвина АФ, Успенский ФБ · 2006 · ‹Выбор имени у русских князей в Х–ХVI вв. Династическая история сквозь призму антропонимики›:_

_Boremir_​_Vladimir~Vladimer~Volodimir~Volodimer_​_Vsevolodimer_​_Zvenimir_​_Kazimir_​_Stanimir_​_Tvorimir_​_Xotemir_​_Jaromir_​
Thus:
(1) the absolutely prevailing form on the East Slavic ground is _-mirъ,_​(2) the meanings are quite diverse and often not explicable from “world, peace”, e. g. _Ostromirъ_ “Sharp-world/peace?”, _Vidomirъ_ “Aspect-world/peace?”, _Žiznomirъ_ “Life-world/peace?”, _Ratьmirъ_ “Army-world/peace?”, _Zvenimir_ “Ringing-world/peace?”. In all these cases the meaning “glorious, famous” is preferable, especially since parallel names in _-slavъ_ exist for some (_Jaromirъ — Jaroslavъ, Stanimirъ — Stanislavъ, Vladimirъ — Vladislavъ, Zvenimir — Zvenislava_ [woman]).​
Across Slavic, _mirъ_ “peace, world” coexists with *_měrъ_ ‘the same’ (_‹Этимологический словарь славянских языков…› — ‹Выпуск 19 (męs(’)arь-morzakъ)› · 1992 · ОН Трубачёв: _55–57): dialectal Serbo-Croatian _mijer_, Old Czech _mier_, Slovak _mier. _So, one may have explained the alternation _-mirъ~-měrъ_ in these names from the purely Slavic material if not the third variant, _-merъ,_ which cannot be etymologically related (as _i_ and ě come from an _i-_diphthong, which cannot have produced _e_ in the Slavic languages of the turn of the 1st and 2nd millennia).

In Germanic, we find the adjective _*mēraz_ “great, excellent; famous”. Its _o_-grade counterpart exists in Celtic (_*māros, _with similar compounds: _Iantumaros_) and perhaps in Greek (_ἐγχεσίμωρος_ “famous for his spear” ? — _Beekes RSP · 2010 · ‹Etymological dictionary of Greek›:_ 372). In Slavic, it should have corresponded to _-měrъ_ and _-marъ, _the latter unattested, and then both _-mirъ_ and _-merъ_ hang in the air.

So, the most probable explanation appears to me as follows. Indo-European languages once possessed personal names with the second element _*-mēros_ or _-mōros_ meaning something like “famous for”. These survived to historical times in Gaulish and especially in Germanic. Slavic probably lost them at some point or preserved as opaque historical remnants that speakers tried to re-analyze. The East Germanic dominance in the pre-Hunnic times (Oium) made the Slavs acquainted with names in _*-mēr->*-mīr-_ (e. g. perhaps _Filimer__;_ the shift _ē>ī_ was occurring in East Germanic precisely in those centuries and is well attested in names and as scribal errors) that were loaned in both phonetic variants, with _*ē>ě_ and _*ī>i._ -_Merъ_ probably reflects the Greek pronunciation of these Germanic names borrowed somewhat later, when Slavs settled in what is now Bulgaria (Thracian Goths).

P. S. _Vladikavkaz_ and _Vladivostok_ are artificial 19th century names given after that folk interpretation of _Vladimir_ as “rule the world”.


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## Panceltic

ahvalj said:


> _-marъ, _the latter unattested



There is Kajtimar in _Krst pri Savici_ but I’m not sure if Prešeren made that name up. (It also sounds like _kaj ti mar_ ‘what do you care?’)


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## ahvalj

Panceltic said:


> There is Kajtimar in _Krst pri Savici_ but I’m not sure if Prešeren made that name up. (It also sounds like _kaj ti mar_ ‘what do you care?’)


It indeed doesn't look like a real Slavic word: there is no root (_kajt_- obviously doesn't exist), and _-mar_ would be unique (in _komarъ__ m_ belongs to the root). So, if somebody attests something like *_Zvьnimarъ…_


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## ahvalj

By the way, _y_ [ɪ] is the result of the Ukrainian merger of the older _i_ and _y,_ so _Volodymyr_ comes from the Old East Slavic _Volodimirъ. _That was a chain reaction as a new _i_ developed from _ě>ie_ (_lěto>lʲito_) and from an older _e_ lengthened before the disappearing yer (_šestь>šʲistʲ_).


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## DarkChild

AndrasBP said:


> I've always wondered why the endeared form of V*la*dimir is V*olo*dya.
> Do you know if the Southern and Eastern Slavic versions have always coexisted in Russian?
> Has the form "Volodimir" ever been used, in dialects perhaps?


This is nothing unusual. There are many such words that coexist in Russian:

grad - gorod
glava - golova

etc.


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## pimlicodude

DarkChild said:


> This is nothing unusual. There are many such words that coexist in Russian:
> 
> grad - gorod
> glava - golova
> 
> etc.


yes - the firms with "o" being the Old Russian or Old East Slavic forms. The forms with "a" being Old Church Slavonic (= essentially Old Bulgarian or the Russian form adapted from it).


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