# ה' הזיקה‎



## hadronic

This question is a sort of continuation of the discussion we had about smikhut and article in the שפת אם post.

Incidentally, I came across this sentence very recently (newspaper title).
How would you explain the ה here ?

בג"ץ החליט : אם עובדת *ה*משלמת בעד טיפול בילדיה - תשלמ פחות מס הכנסה


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## MaNitma

The "ה" here plays the role of "ש", opening a subordinate clause (equivalent to "that", "which", "who" as you may already know).
It is a pretty common switch done mainly in the written language and in formal speech.

The above sentence is perfectly equivalent to:
בג"ץ החליט: אם עובדת *ש*משלמת בעד טיפול בילדיה - תשלם פחות מס הכנסה
"The supreme court has decided: A working mother *who* pays for her children's care _[by a nanny]_ - will pay less income tax".

It can be a bit confusing, but the "ה" here is not the same "ה" we encounter when dealing with _smikhut_.


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## kopo

Does anyone know during which period of Hebrew this became valid syntax?

It seems to be an over-generalization of the use of ה' הידיעה as a relativizer in _definite_ clauses.

(Incidentally, the definite usage has a direct equivalent in Arabic; the indefinite usage, to my knowledge, does not.)


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## origumi

kopo said:


> Does anyone know during which period of Hebrew this became valid syntax?


At least as old as the earliest Biblical Hebrew. הוּא *הַ*סֹּבֵב אֵת כָּל אֶרֶץ הַחֲוִילָה, וַיִּגְוַע כָּל בָּשָׂר *הָ*רֹמֵשׂ עַל הָאָרֶץ.


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## MaNitma

An important thing to note -- the letters aren't completely interchangeable.

I don't know the exact rules that apply here, but I think that only "ש"-s that play the role of the words "who" and "which" (or an equivalent "that") can be replaced with a "ה".
Also sometimes the "ה" replaces both the "ש" and the word which comes before it (usually "מי ש", מה ש", "כל ש").

Examples:

השחקנית *ש*משחקת בתפקיד הראשי יפה מאוד ~ השחקנית *ה*משחקת בתפקיד הראשי יפה מאוד 
The actress [*who *is] playing the lead role is very pretty.

לא כל *מה ש*נוצץ זהב ~ לא כל *ה*נוצץ זהב 
Not all *that* [could be *which*] glitters is gold.

ילד *ש*מגדל כלב לומד מהי אחריות ~ ילד *ה*מגדל כלב לומד מהי אחריות 
A child *who *raises a dog learns what is responsibility.

אני מבקש *ש*תתקשר אלי כשאתה מגיע 
אני מבקש *ה*תתקשר אלי כשאתה מגיע 
I ask *that *you call me when you get there.

לא ידעתי *ש*אתה כל כך אוהב פיצה 
לא ידעתי *ה*אתה כל כך אוהב פיצה 
I didn't know *that *you liked pizza so much.


As I said, I don't know the exact rules here, but I hope this helps shed a little light on the subject.


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## origumi

MaNitma said:


> An important thing to note -- the letters aren't completely interchangeable.


As a rule of thumb for ה vs. ש before verb: if the verb is in present tense they are interchangeable (although the meaning may slightly change), otherwise not.


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## hadronic

You can use ה to introduce a _conjonctive _clause ?
Ex: I didn't know that you liked...   לא ידעתי *ה*אתה אוהב


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## MaNitma

hadronic said:


> You can use ה to introduce a _conjonctive _clause ?
> Ex: I didn't know that you liked...   לא ידעתי *ה*אתה אוהב



No, that is not a correct sentence.
As you can see in my examples above, this sentence has a  beside it.


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## hadronic

sorry, I can't see any red cross in your message.


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## MaNitma

hadronic said:


> sorry, I can't see any red cross in your message.



Sorry, I didn't realize that.

Anyway, these examples are correct:



MaNitma said:


> השחקנית *ש*משחקת בתפקיד הראשי יפה מאוד ~ השחקנית *ה*משחקת בתפקיד הראשי יפה מאוד
> The actress [*who *is] playing the lead role is very pretty.
> 
> לא כל *מה ש*נוצץ זהב ~ לא כל *ה*נוצץ זהב
> Not all *that* [could be *which*] glitters is gold.
> 
> ילד *ש*מגדל כלב לומד מהי אחריות ~ ילד *ה*מגדל כלב לומד מהי אחריות
> A child *who *raises a dog learns what is responsibility.



These are incorrect:



MaNitma said:


> אני מבקש *ש*תתקשר אלי כשאתה מגיע
> אני מבקש *ה*תתקשר אלי כשאתה מגיע
> I ask *that *you call me when you get there.
> 
> לא ידעתי *ש*אתה כל כך אוהב פיצה
> לא ידעתי *ה*אתה כל כך אוהב פיצה
> I didn't know *that *you liked pizza so much.


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## ahshav

The rule of thumb is - if the ש can be replaced with אשר then it can also be a ה. Otherwise - it must remain a ש.


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## MaNitma

ahshav said:


> The rule of thumb is - if the ש can be replaced with אשר then it can also be a ה. Otherwise - it must remain a ש.



That's exactly right.


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## kopo

That's not an accurate rule of thumb. Consider:
זו ארץ שאהתבי
  זו ארץ אשר אהבתי 
זו ארץ האהבתי  

I think a further restriction is that the relative ה must make sense if it were used as a definite article with the word to which it is attached. This means that the attached word must be a participle (צורת בינוני).

זו ארץ שאהובה עלי
זו ארץ אשר אהובה עלי 
  זו ארץ האהובה עלי


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## origumi

kopo said:


> I think a further restriction is that the relative ה must make sense if it were used as a definite article with the word to which it is attached. This means that the attached word must be a participle (צורת בינוני).


This is much better and yet incomplete. Consider:

הכלל *ש*מוצע על ידי שמעון
הכלל *ה*מוצע על ידי שמעון

מה *ש*מוצע על ידי שמעון
מה *ה*מוצע על ידי שמעון

האיש *ש*מציע את הכלל
האיש *ה*מציע את הכלל

הכלל *ש*מציע שמעון
הכלל *ה*מציע שמעון


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## Flaminius

Assuming you have marked ungrammatical sentences with red ink, *origumi*, your examples seem to allude that _hej hajedia`_ may be used as the relative clause marker when the antecedent is definite and it is the subject of the verb marked by _hej hajedia`_.  Or not?


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## origumi

Flaminius said:


> Assuming you have marked ungrammatical sentences with red ink, *origumi* *[exactly, o.]*, your examples seem to allude that _hej hajedia`_ may be used as the relative clause marker when the antecedent is definite and it is the subject of the verb marked by _hej hajedia`_. Or not?


I don't think so. See this:


kopo said:


> ארץ *ש*אהובה עלי
> ארץ *ה*אהובה עלי


It's wierd: Hebrew speakers can almost automatically tell whether it is valid to replace ש by ה (that is, ש' הזיקה ב-ה' הזיקה) in every specific case, and yet formulating the rule seems difficult.


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## Flaminius

Oh, I should have read *kopo*'s #*3* _supra_ more carefully:


> It seems to be an over-generalization of the use of ה' הידיעה as a relativizer in _definite_ clauses.


I see that I placed too tight a restriction.  Would it finally fit the bill if I say the antecedent of a ה' הזיקה should be the subject of a participle and not a _wh_-word (_ma_, _mi_, _mataj_, etc.)?

For a test, how does this sound to you native Hebrew speakers?
מישהו היודע את שימעון כתב עליו.


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## hadronic

Can this ה introduces both descriptive and restrictive relative clauses ?

Descriptive :
The children, that ate too much, went to bed earlier.
= The children ate too much and went to bed earlier

Restrictive :
The children that ate too much went to bed earlier (and only those).


הילדים, האוכלים יותר מדי, הלכו לישון מוקדם יותר
הילדים האוכלים יותר מדי הלכו לישון מוקדם יותר


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## MaNitma

hadronic said:


> Can this ה introduces both descriptive and restrictive relative clauses ?
> 
> Descriptive :
> The children, that ate too much, went to bed earlier.
> = The children ate too much and went to bed earlier
> 
> Restrictive :
> The children that ate too much went to bed earlier (and only those).
> 
> 
> הילדים, האוכלים יותר מדי, הלכו לישון מוקדם יותר
> הילדים האוכלים יותר מדי הלכו לישון מוקדם יותר



Hmm.. Well, both generally sound fine, and I think that both uses are correct and acceptable.

However, if it were said to me, I think I'd interpret it as a restrictive clause (i.e. the specific children who ate too much, went to bed).

But that is just my personal opinion, it may just as well sound like a descriptive clause to my neighbor.


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## Nunty

There are a number of sites in Hebrew that explain and give rules for ה' הזיקה. A couple that might be helpful are: סיכומונה  and מט"ח המרכז לטכנולוגיה חינוכית. Another nice site, with a convenient table, is on the טכניון site.

I'm not sure if this is a "native language sense" issue or not, though, since so many Hebrew natives make mistakes with it in formal writing. The rule of thumb that ה' הזיקה can replace ש' הזיקה only works as long as we are comfortable with ש' הזיקה.


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## origumi

Flaminius said:


> Would it finally fit the bill if I say the antecedent of a ה' הזיקה should be the subject of a participle and not a _wh_-word (_ma_, _mi_, _mataj_, etc.)?


I do not have any contradicting example and yet cannot say for sure that this rule is full.



> For a test, how does this sound to you native Hebrew speakers?
> מישהו היודע את שימעון כתב עליו.


This sentence is correct.

BTW יודע את שמעון is good Hebrew (although archaic) and yet sounds to the modern Hebrew ear differently than what you think. See for example Genesis 4:1.



Nunty said:


> There are a number of sites in Hebrew that explain and give rules for ה' הזיקה. A couple that might be helpful are: סיכומונה and מט"ח המרכז לטכנולוגיה חינוכית. Another nice site, with a convenient table, is on the טכניון site.


I don't think that any of the cited pages provide a comprehensive rule. As far as I could see there are only some specific cases and unfocused description.



> I'm not sure if this is a "native language sense" issue or not, though, since so many Hebrew natives make mistakes with it in formal writing. The rule of thumb that ה' הזיקה can replace ש' הזיקה only works as long as we are comfortable with ש' הזיקה.


I fill comfortable with זה הסרט שאהבתי or זה מה שיש yet cannot replace ש by ה. We're back to square one.


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## Nunty

origumi said:


> I don't think that any of the cited pages provide a comprehensive rule. As far as I could see there are only some specific cases and unfocused description.


I didn't say "comprehensive".  They cite examples of usage and explain them, though.




origumi said:


> I fill comfortable with זה הסרט שאהבתי or זה מה שיש yet cannot replace ש by ה. We're back to square one.


You misunderstand me; I probably did not express my self clearly. I did not intent do say that any place we are comfortable with ש' הזיקה we can plug in ה' הזיקה. I was trying to say that this is not merely a question of "native speaker language sense" because only native speakers who are comfortable with correct use of ש' הזיקה in the first place would "know" where we can put ה' הזיקה and where we can't. It is, I believe, a kind of "educated native sense".

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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