# amen



## No_C_Nada

_Good morning, forum members! 

What is the origin of the word "amen"? Is it Arameic or Hebrew?

What is its pronunciation in the original language?

Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.


_


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## swift

Hi, No_C_Nada. 

Here's an etymology.


> *amen
> *
> O.E., from L.L. _amen_, from Ecclesiastical Gk. _amen_, from Hebrew _amen_ "truth," used adverbially as an expression of agreement (e.g. Deut. xxvii.26, I Kings i.36; cf. Mod.Eng. _verily, surely, absolutely_ in the same sense), from Sem. root _a-m-n_ "to be trustworthy, confirm, support." Used in O.E. only at the end of Gospels, otherwise translated as _Soðlic!_ or _Swa hit ys,_ or _Sy!_ As an expression of concurrence after prayers, it is recorded from early 13c.
> 
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=amen&allowed_in_frame=0


About the pronunciation, let's wait for more comments.


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## tFighterPilot

Well, we obviously can't tell the exact pronunciation of anything in ancient Hebrew. According to Tiberian Hebrew it's pronounced /ʔɔ*men*/


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## ancalimon

Among Turkic populations (that are not necessarily Muslim, Jew or Christian), I heard it pronounced as OĞ MİN  (OWMEEN)  after their prayer which is called ALKIS. (they open their arms and hands to the air like they are going to hug the sky)

I know one thing about this and it is that the shape of the horns (the fact that they are pointing upwards) is a concept called OĞ  ;  OW.  (related to DOĞ (rising of sun),  DOĞRU (true, correct, good-trustworthy person ), DOĞU (East which was the holy direction)

So simply put OĞLU (possesing OĞ)  or OWLU  became ULU in Turkish meaning holy~great~almighty~exalted... and also "howling of the wolf"

In Turkey we say AMİN (A is pronounced longer than the rest)

Of course this is just an observation and I can not possibly know about the origin. It might or might not be related with the common religion of Central Asia.


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## ThomasK

According to Wikipedia: 



> The word _*amen*_ (
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> /ˌɑːˈmɛn/ or /ˌeɪˈmɛn/; Hebrew: אָמֵן, Modern _amen_ Tiberian _ʾāmēn_; Greek: ἀμήν; Arabic: آمين‎, _ʾāmīn_ ; "So be it; truly") is a declaration of affirmation[1][2] found in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. Its use in Judaism dates back to its earliest texts.[3] It has been generally adopted in Christian worship as a concluding word for prayers and hymns.[2] In Islam, it is the standard ending to Dua (supplication) and the "Opening" chapter of the Qur'an. Common English translations of the word _amen_ include "verily" and "truly". It can also be used colloquially to express strong agreement,[2] as in, for instance, _amen to that_.[4]



Does that help ?


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## arielipi

Simple, just read it phonetically.
It comes from Hebrew and in English it has the same meaning as in Hebrew(agreement, after praying and such)
And hallelujah is pronounced haleluya by the way.


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## No_C_Nada

tFighterPilot said:


> Well, we obviously can't tell the exact pronunciation of anything in ancient Hebrew. According to Tiberian Hebrew it's pronounced /ʔɔ*men*/


_Thank you, tFighterPilot. How do you pronounce "_ʔɔ_"? _


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## No_C_Nada

arielipi said:


> Simple, just read it phonetically.


 _Is it pronounced  "ah - 'men" in Hebrew?_


arielipi said:


> It comes from Hebrew and in English it has the same meaning as in Hebrew(agreement, after praying and such)
> And hallelujah is pronounced haleluya by the way.


_Thank you, arielipi. Then, this word was never used in Arameic?_


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## tFighterPilot

Wikipedia can always be a good source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel.ogg

Alternatively, think of the English pronunciation of "All" or "Call"


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## ancalimon

tFighterPilot said:


> Wikipedia can always be a good source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel.ogg
> 
> Alternatively, think of the English pronunciation of "All" or "Call"



That's the OĞ sound I was talking about. But near the end you move your lips closer.


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## origumi

No_C_Nada said:


> _Then, this word was never used in Arameic?_


In early Aramaic translations of the Bible, Hebrew _amen_ is translated to _amen_. So either Aramaic had the same word (which is unlikely), or had no word that covers the meaning of Hebrew _amen_ so bororwed it as-is.


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## terredepomme

I think Aramaic had the same word, since when Jesus says "verily, verily I say onto you" the "verily" precisely is "amen" in its literal sense.


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## Abu Rashid

No_C_Nada said:


> _Then, this word was never used in Arameic?_



It's used in pretty much every Semitic language, including Aramaic. In Aramaic it's pronounced ameen (as in Arabic).

I guess it could be the case that the word spread (was borrowed) along with Christianity to the other Semitic languages, as most of their speakers did adopt Christianity at some point. However it exists in Sabaic (Ancient South Arabian), a language whose speakers did not adopt Christianity (as far as I know).

It's important to keep in mind though that this word is based on a very common Semitic root a-m-n, which exists in almost all Semitic languages and is used extensively in a religious context throughout those languages, so the question of which one it specifically originates from is pretty much moot.


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## origumi

Abu Rashid said:


> It's used in pretty much every Semitic language, including Aramaic. In Aramaic it's pronounced ameen (as in Arabic).


There are cognates in other languages and yet - in regard to amen, with its specific meanings - this is originally a Jewish concept thus comes from Hebrew. Also: As Hebrew _amen_ was translated to Aramaic _amen_ in the Bible (and later to Greek and other languages), there's no reason to assume that Aramaic _ameen_ is the same. Unless there's some good evidence from pre-NT times.


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## Abu Rashid

origumi said:


> There are cognates in other languages


 
Well some languages could be explained away as not so much cognates but borrowings, for the specialised meaning due to their adoption of Christianity, but I don't think Sabaic can.



origumi said:


> and yet - in regard to amen, with its specific meanings - this is originally a Jewish concept thus comes from Hebrew.


 
You've lost me there, why is it a Jewish concept? Why not a Sabaic one? Or an Arabic one?



origumi said:


> Also: As Hebrew _amen_ was translated to Aramaic _amen_ in the Bible (and later to Greek and other languages), there's no reason to assume that Aramaic _ameen_ is the same. Unless there's some good evidence from pre-NT times.



So in Aramaic translations of the tanakh it's אמן and not אמין?


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## apmoy70

Just wanted to add that in Christian Gospels, some authors leave Christ's _amen_ untranslated, e.g John 16:23 «ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν» (in KJV "verily, verily, I say unto you"), while others (Luke mostly, who was Greek) translate amen into «ἀληθῶς», e.g. Luke 12:44 «ἀληθῶς λέγω ὑμῖν» (in KJV "of a truth I say unto you").
In Greek we pronounce it /a'min/


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> You've lost me there, why is it a Jewish concept? Why not a Sabaic one? Or an Arabic one?


The use as an idiomatic affirmative phrase, not the word as such.


Abu Rashid said:


> So in Aramaic translations of the tanakh it's אמן and not אמין?


The difference seems to be only orthographic. The vowel of the second syllable is long [e:] in both, Tiberian Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic. Allophonic lengthening of vowels is not reflected in spelling in Hebrew.


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## berndf

apmoy70 said:


> In Greek we pronounce it /a'min/


It should be added that this is Modern Greek. ἀμὴν was /a'me:n/ in learned and /a'men/ in popular speech at the time the gospels were written.


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## Abu Rashid

berndf said:


> The use as an idiomatic affirmative phrase, not the word as such.



But this exists in many languages. As I pointed out, Sabaic doesn't seem to have had any widespread history of adopting Christianity so it would seem strange for it to exist in the same manner there, unless it were a native cognate, rather than a borrowing.



berndf said:


> The difference seems to be only orthographic. The vowel of the second syllable is long [e:] in both, Tiberian Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic. Allophonic lengthening of vowels is not reflected in spelling in Hebrew.



Thanks. How about MIH pronunciation?


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## apmoy70

berndf said:


> It should be added that this is Modern Greek. ἀμὴν was /a'me:n/ in learned and /a'men/ in popular speech at the time the gospels were written.


Don't want to hijack the thread but Teodorsson does not agree, the completion of the vowel raising of η [e:] to [i:] and subsequently, the loss of vowel-length dinstinctions is already far advanced by 50 BCE


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## berndf

apmoy70 said:


> Don't want to hijack the thread but Teodorsson does not agree, the completion of the vowel raising of η [e:] to [i:] and subsequently, the loss of vowel-length dinstinctions is already far advanced by 50 BCE


Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> But this exists in many languages. As I pointed out, Sabaic doesn't seem to have had any widespread history of adopting Christianity so it would seem strange for it to exist in the same manner there, unless it were a native cognate, rather than a borrowing.


Does it exist in Sabaic as an affirmative phrase?


Abu Rashid said:


> Thanks. How about MIH pronunciation?


I don't understand that abbreviation.


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## rayloom

Abu Rashid said:


> Well some languages could be explained away as not so much cognates but borrowings, for the specialised meaning due to their adoption of Christianity, but I don't think Sabaic can.
> [...]
> why is it a Jewish concept? Why not a Sabaic one? Or an Arabic one?



It would be great if you could provide instances of its occurence in Sabaic, because searching online (I know, not a very reliable source), I couldn't find  any occurence of "amen" in Sabaic. It does occur in Himyaritic (or to be  more precise, in the Himyaritic era). Also mostly in inscriptions  written by Jews.
You have for example, an inscription from the 4th  century by a "Yehuda Yakkuf" which contains "'mn  shlwm 'mn" (Amen  shalom amen). And another inscription from the 6th century also ending  in Amen.
Mind you that by that time, Judaism had quite a presence in  Yemen. The Himyarite king Abu-karib As'ad had converted to Judaism by  the end of the 5th century AD.


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## Abu Rashid

berndf said:


> Does it exist in Sabaic as an affirmative phrase?



The meaning is in English "amen" and in Arabic أمين



berndf said:


> I don't understand that abbreviation.



Modern Israeli Hebrew.


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## Abu Rashid

rayloom said:


> It would be great if you could provide instances of its occurence in Sabaic, because searching online (I know, not a very reliable source), I couldn't find  any occurence of "amen" in Sabaic. It does occur in Himyaritic (or to be  more precise, in the Himyaritic era). Also mostly in inscriptions  written by Jews.



It is listed in this dictionary. The entry for this word further references: G. Ryckmans, Inscriptions Sud-Arabes, 403/6, 513/5. Not sure of that's of any help.



rayloom said:


> You have for example, an inscription from the 4th  century by a "Yehuda Yakkuf" which contains "'mn  shlwm 'mn" (Amen  shalom amen). And another inscription from the 6th century also ending  in Amen.



Seems to be the same inscription, and it's written in Hebrew as a post script, not as part of the Musnad text.



rayloom said:


> Mind you that by that time, Judaism had quite a presence in  Yemen. The Himyarite king Abu-karib As'ad had converted to Judaism by  the end of the 5th century AD.



Yes Judaism did have quite a presence there I guess and they became the rulers, and there were also Christian subjects.


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## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Modern Israeli Hebrew.


Oh, I see. /amen/: Modern Israeli Hebrew has the Spanish 5-vowel system, i.e. quantity doesn't matter; mid-close/mid-open vowels are merged in the middle; no central vowels (Schwa is either mute or /e/).
The distinction between /ɛ/ and /e:/ is completely neutralized.


Abu Rashid said:


> It is listed in this dictionary. The entry for this word further references: G. Ryckmans, Inscriptions Sud-Arabes, 403/6, 513/5. Not sure of that's of any help.


Could you cite the complete entry? Is there any clue as to the period for which this word in this meaning is attested?


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## berndf

*Moderator note: Discussion of Shva in Modern Hebrew move to a separate thread.*


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## No_C_Nada

apmoy70 said:


> In Greek we pronounce it /a'min/


_Thank you apmoy70.  In Greek, that "a", do you pronounce it "ah" as in "blah" or "ey" as in "say"?
 Then, the emphasis (accent) is on the second syllable?_


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## berndf

No_C_Nada said:


> _Thank you apmoy70.  In Greek, that "a", do you pronounce it "ah" as in "blah" or "ey" as in "say"?
> Then, the emphasis (accent) is on the second syllable?_


Greek has the same vowels as Spanish.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Abu Rashid said:
			
		

> ; It is listed in this dictionary. The entry for this word further references: G. Ryckmans, Inscriptions Sud-Arabes, 403/6, 513/5. Not sure of that's of any help.



I guess it is, if you read the entry thoroughly you will see that this word is listed with the mention LW for Loan Word...


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## apmoy70

berndf said:


> Greek has the same vowels as Spanish.


exactly


No_C_Nada said:


> _Thank you apmoy70.  In Greek, that "a", do you pronounce it "ah" as in "blah" or "ey" as in "say"?
> Then, the emphasis (accent) is on the second syllable?_


It's pronounced like this:
click me for the correct pronunciation of amen in Greek


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## Ben Jamin

No_C_Nada said:


> _Thank you apmoy70.  In Greek, that "a", do you pronounce it "ah" as in "blah" or *"ey"* as in "say"?
> Then, the emphasis (accent) is on the second syllable?_



There is no 'ei' diphtong in Modern Greek, as far as I know.


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## No_C_Nada

_
Thank you apmoy70. That is a very useful link to pronunciation._


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## No_C_Nada

apmoy70 said:


> exactly
> 
> It's pronounced like this:
> click me for the correct pronunciation of amen in Greek



_Thank you, apmoy70 for the link.  I had found where to click to listen to the pronunciation, but now I have forgotten where I clicked.  Would you please give me a refresher of where to click once I'm on that page?

Thanks in advance for your help.
_


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