# Tête de turc and other questionable expressions



## Euskaldun

Hi,


Je trouve que c'est grave de supprimer des termes ou expressions sous prétexte qu'ils auraient une prétendue connotation raciste. A ce rythme là on ne pourra bientôt plus rien dire du tout dans notre pays. Tête de Turc, tête de nègre...On pourrait dans le genre pâtisserie supprimer aussi la grave "atteinte raciste, anti-cléricale et sexiste " que représente un "pet de none"(!!) ou même simplement une "religieuse". On va tous finir chocolat.


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## geve

Euskaldun said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 
> Je trouve que c'est grave de supprimer des termes ou expressions sous prétexte qu'ils auraient une prétendue connotation raciste. A ce rythme là on ne pourra bientôt plus rien dire du tout dans notre pays. Tête de Turc, tête de nègre...On pourrait dans le genre pâtisserie supprimer aussi la grave "atteinte raciste, anti-cléricale et sexiste " que représente un "pet de none"(!!) ou même simplement une "religieuse". On va tous finir chocolat.


Ah, ne me lancez pas sur le sujet du chocolat !!  

Mais je suis d'accord : je crois que "tête de turc" est devenue une expression suffisamment courante pour qu'elle ne recèle aucune connotation raciste. De plus, comme on l'a vu posts 3 et 10, étymologiquement ça se réfère à un objet. C'est cet objet qui aurait pu être considéré raciste, pas l'expression qui s'en est inspiré !

En ce qui concerne la "tête de nègre" de mon boulanger, le problème est plutôt l'usage du mot "nègre", peu politiquement correct... et qui renvoie à une époque où les Noirs étaient dépeints de façon caricaturale (voir par exemple _Tintin au Congo_) : on peut comprendre que le raisonnement "c'est rond, c'est noir, appelons-ça une tête de nègre" soit discutable...
Les religieuses ont moins de quoi s'offusquer, après tout, c'est surtout la couleur de leur habit qui justifie le nom, non ?  Quant aux "pets-de-nonne", ça ressemble plus à une blague qu'à autre chose...


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## Euskaldun

Hi,

Et il y a aussi "parler petit-nègre" etc. Je ne vois pas bien en quoi le mot "nègre" serait moins correct que "noir" quand on sait que les Noirs eux-mêmes se réclament de la "négritude"! Ya bon Banania c'était plutôt marrant je trouve. Ce n'est "raciste" que pour les gens pas très futés. La mode est à la "repentance". Cela devient n'importe quoi comme toujours avec les excès. Même le Crazy Horse a eu des problèmes parce que cet établissement utilise le nom d'un célèbre chef indien! Ca m'énerve, je vais chercher un carré de chocolat dans le frigo. C'est du chocolat NOIR!! Oui, je sais, il y en qui penseront que c'est sacrilège de mettre du chocolat au frigo. Pourtant c'est très bon quand c'est frais et croquant.


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## geve

Un sujet pour le forum Culturel, peut-être ?  

Ok pour le chocolat au frigo - mais alors dans le bac à légumes, hein !


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## Benjy

quick resumé for the non french speaking membres..

this was split off from a discussion of the expression "tête de turc" which some might deem questionable or raciste and thus would want to erase it from the language. others think that is rediculous

it reminds me of a conversation that i had with my mother.. she had one of those robinsons golliwog toys and loved it to bits, and thought it was a shame when robinsons stopped doing them.


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## geve

I hadn't seen that thread!! Faut prévenir, Benjy !  

FYI, the original thread about "tête de turc" is here
__________________________________________

I wouldn't say that the use of "tête de Turc" (punch-bag) is really questioned. It is quite commonly used and doesn't imply any racist connotation as you might read in the thread mentioned above and in what's now post #2 of this thread here. 

But one thing that was indeed renamed is the "tête de nègre" (nigger head), a _pâtisserie_ formed with meringue and chocolate. It is now called "boule meringue", at least in my favourite _boulangerie_.

Is that an issue in other languages? I know that the topic of expressions using names of other countries has been discussed here before, but here the question would rather be: is there a debate around what could be considered as racist expressions, but are nonetheless commonly used? 
(because they have been used for so long that no one really sees the racist connotation any more, or...?)


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## optimistique

Oui, exactement le même se passe aux Pays-Bas. Il y a eu beaucoup d'émoi sur le mot "tête de nègre", qui s'appelle "*negerzoen*" (baiser de nègre) chez nous, ce qui serait raciste. C'est plutôt un joli mot, à mon avis, plutôt que raciste. Et en plus, j'ai l'impression que ce sont surtout les blancs qui protestent contre le mot. Je trouve que ça dit plus sur eux que sur le mot!
En tout cas, tout récemment, le fabricateur a décidé de changer le nom. Maintenant ils s'appellent donc simplement "*zoenen*" (baisers). Ce n'est que ridicule à mon avis.

--

Yes, the same is happening in the Netherlands. People have been saying that our "*negerzoen*" (niggerkiss, but the English "nigger" sounds far more negative than the Dutch "neger", at least in my opinion) is a very racist word, that should be erased from our vocabulary as soon as possible. Now the maker of these "angel kisses" (that's what it says on the box, at least) has changed the name into "zoenen" (kisses). I think it's ridiculous. It's a nice name, rather than a racist name. I think it says more about the mostly white people, who protest against it, than about the name itself.


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## maxiogee

We Irish have long been suffering a negativity with regard to the word "Irish".
It's something we grew very used to.
It seems to be dying out now.


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## optimistique

maxiogee said:
			
		

> We Irish have long been suffering a negativity with regard to the word "Irish".
> It's something we grew very used to.
> It seems to be dying out now.



Do you mean a negative usage of the word by English? Like they still use "Dutch" in a negative way in a lot of expressions (Dutch courage, for example). Is there nobody protesting against that? We poor Dutch people.


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## maxiogee

optimistique said:
			
		

> Why that? Does it mean something negative?



Indeed. A few examples…
Irish confetti - Rocks thrown with dangerous velocity.
Irish Handshake - To greet someone by giving them a backhanded slap across the face.
Irish prawn - a woman with a great face, but the body isnt so great.


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## optimistique

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Indeed. A few examples…
> Irish confetti - Rocks thrown with dangerous velocity.
> Irish Handshake - To greet someone by giving them a backhanded slap across the face.
> Irish prawn - a woman with a great face, but the body isnt so great.



OK, I didn't know that. Well, as you can see in my maybe too quickly edited post, you're in good company


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## Residente Calle 13

optimistique said:
			
		

> Do you mean a negative usage of the word by English? Like they still use "Dutch" in a negative way in a lot of expressions (Dutch courage, for example). Is there nobody protesting against that? We poor Dutch people.



People in New York still "go Dutch" and "double dutch" is also "gibberish" when it's not a game of jump rope.


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## geve

Well I guess it wouldn't be off-topic to mention here the _French bath_ or _wash..._ (it was off-topic in that thread)

The "negerzoen" story is interesting, optimistique. In both our countries, the problem was perhaps strengthened by the use of the word nègre/neger/nigger, which might have a connotation that the word noir/black hasn't. The expression uses a term that can be considered as derogatory in itself. 
I can't think of other set expressions with this kind of word for the moment...


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## se16teddy

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Indeed. A few examples…
> Irish confetti - Rocks thrown with dangerous velocity.
> Irish Handshake - To greet someone by giving them a backhanded slap across the face.
> Irish prawn - a woman with a great face, but the body isnt so great.


 
Lest readers think that the above expressions are current, may I say that I haven't heard of any of these! The Irish are traditionally stereotyped as stupid (but eloquent), but not as violent or ugly. I have heard of a 'Glasgow kiss' (and witnessed a half hearted effort in a London pub). To give someone a 'Glasgow kiss' you smash your beer glass and thrust it, sharp points first, into his face.


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## se16teddy

Euskaldun said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 
> Je trouve que c'est grave de supprimer des termes ou expressions sous prétexte qu'ils auraient une prétendue connotation raciste. A ce rythme là on ne pourra bientôt plus rien dire du tout dans notre pays. Tête de Turc, tête de nègre...On pourrait dans le genre pâtisserie supprimer aussi la grave "atteinte raciste, anti-cléricale et sexiste " que représente un "pet de none"(!!) ou même simplement une "religieuse". On va tous finir chocolat.


 
In English, I think it is the Arabs, rather than Turks, who suffer, or suffered in this way.  My father used to say 'thieving arab' or 'lying arab' of people of any ethnic origin, without thinking that it might be offensive.  Fortunately, I have not heard expressions like this for years: people are now aware that this kind of stereotyping can be hurtful.


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## Brioche

se16teddy said:
			
		

> Lest readers think that the above expressions are current, may I say that I haven't heard of any of these! The Irish are traditionally stereotyped as stupid (but eloquent), but not as violent or ugly. I have heard of a 'Glasgow kiss' (and witnessed a half hearted effort in a London pub). To give someone a 'Glasgow kiss' you smash your beer glass and thrust it, sharp points first, into his face.


 
I've come across _Glasgow Kiss_ meaning the same as a _Liverpool Kiss,_ namely type of head-butt, where the forehead is struck by the crown of the other person.


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## maxiogee

Yes, that's my Glasgow Kiss also, the "kiss" is the physical contact between the two faces.
Maybe the broken glass imparts a Glaswegian love-bite!


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## se16teddy

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Yes, that's my Glasgow Kiss also, the "kiss" is the physical contact between the two faces.
> Maybe the broken glass imparts a Glaswegian love-bite!


 

Google seems to agree with you and Brioche.  Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years!


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## maxiogee

se16teddy said:
			
		

> Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years!


I'm dispatching a Glaswegian to London SE16, to seek out all those who answer to Teddy, so that he can demonstrate the procedure correctly to you. Please make sure you understand him fully before he leaves, as repeat call-out fees are higher. Please buy him a pint as payment.


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## emma42

I don't think you can translate "negre" or the equivalent Dutch word (sorry, I've forgotten it!) by "nigger"   . Negro would be more appropriate, which although still derogatory, is nowhere near as pejorative as the "N" word mentioned above. All these words, of course, derive from Latin for "black", but I think, certainly in Britain, "negro" smacks of the use of the word "nigra" or "negra" by American slave owners, the context of use and tone of voice used bestowing a derogatory meaning to the word.

As to "Irish", well, the most common pejorative use I've heard is simply, "that sounds really Irish", meaning something sounds stupid or badly thought out or nonsensical.


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## KittyCatty

I have never heard these Glaswegian or Irish derogatory expressions - but then I do live in the back of beyond, so perhaps I'm just naive. 
I don't know if I completely understood Euskaldun, but was he/she(sorry!) getting at something along the lines of, like in England, we are no longer supposed to ask for a black coffee, because this might be considered racist, and children no longer sing 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' but 'Baaa Baa Rainbow Sheep'? This to me, is way OTT (over the top for anyone unfamiliar with this expression) and is, frankly, ridiculous. I agree totally with the morals behind it, but at the same time, nobody can surely associate black coffee with racism. We are, after all, allowed to say white coffee aren't we?


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## emma42

Hi kittycatty.  Euskaldun (sex unknown to me also) was talking about some French pastries called Tête de Turque (Turk's Head) and Tête de Nègre (Negro's Head).  His/her view is that there is nothing racist about the names of these pastries, but others disagree.  I think there is more room for argument there than the "black coffee"/"black sheep" thing, which I agree with you is ridiculous.  I am not sure about the pastries, though, I am still thinking about those and am prepared to possibly accept that in another culture where these names have been around so long, they might not be offensive.  I would definitely find them offensive if they were used in this country, though.  Especially "Negro's Head".


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## Benjy

un tête de turc is not a pastry. whipping boy/punch bag might be more appropriate translations (or in the vein of this thread how about "red-headed step-child" haha). you'll have to find the original thread if you want the whole discussion


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## emma42

Whoops!  I _knew_ that.  Really sorry for giving kittycatty the wrong information.


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## KittyCatty

Don't worry emma42! Oh dear - tete de turc sounds like an awful expression - yeah the red-headed stepchild thing was equally shocking. If I were to use that expression (not likely seeing as I'd previously never heard that either), it certainly wouldn't be in public.


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## emma42

I think the problem comes down to oppression.  

For example, I would not object to a pastry called "Person from Nottingham's Head" because people from Nottingham are not, per se, oppressed.  

Black people are, however, oppressed in this country (who is going to argue with me about that...?) and therefore "Black Person's Head" will be offensive.  "Negro's Head" will be even more offensive because of the use of the word "Negro", which is derogatory in itself.  I suppose people are going to disagree with me and say "It only means black...Latin...etc", but the "N" word also "only means black" and you wouldn't use that, would you?


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