# speaking from a female student's point of view



## stargirlamy

bon soir!
Je voudrais traduire cette phrase si vous plait
'speaking from a female student's point of view' Je crois que.. etc.
Je sais pas comment.
Merci d'avance
Amy


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## Nil-the-Frogg

Je dirais: "En tant qu'étudiante, je crois que..."
ou encore "De mon point de vue d'étudiante, il semble que..."

Et il y a sans doute bien d'autres options.


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## stargirlamy

merci beaucoup!


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## mally pense

In addition to Nil's suggestions, would the following work:_ "Moi, comme étudiante, je crois/pense..."?_

Also, is _étudiante_ really sufficient by itself to emphasise that the point of view is that of a female student? Yes, of course _étudiante_ is indeed a female student, but if the original query had been "speaking from *a student's* point of view", wouldn't that lead to the exact same translation? Is there some way needed to emphasise that this is a _female_ student, not just _a_ student?


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## Bisou82

I agree, it looks like the emphasis is on the _female_. Could we say:

"En tant qu'étudiantE ... "... stressing on the E as i guess the context is a speech or debate, well it's spoken.

Otherwise the only possibility I see would be:
" En tant qu'etudiant de sexe féminin". But it's strange, I don't really like it. Then you would need to get rid of the "etudiant" and choose "personne".

Does it make sense?


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## mally pense

How about "En tant qu'étudiante (non étudiant)..."?


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## Bisou82

Oh je sais...

Why not: en tant qu'étudiante femme..." Again with a stress on the word femme when spoken... Ok c'est toujours bancal mais bon.

I like your suggestion mally pense as well.


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## xtrasystole

stargirlamy said:


> Je voudrais traduire cette phrase si vous plait
> 'speaking from a female student's point of view' Je crois que.. etc.


This sounds quite smooth and clear to me: _'*De mon point de vue d'étudiante*, je crois qu'il est nécessaire que...'_


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## Cath.S.

_


			
				Bisou82 said:
			
		


En tant qu'etudiant de sexe féminin

Click to expand...

_sounds really odd, I don't think anyone has ever said it or ever will.
_


			
				Bisou82 said:
			
		


en tant qu'étudiante femme

Click to expand...

_est un pléonasme, toutes les étudiantes étant des femmes.


			
				Mally Pense said:
			
		

> Is there some way needed to emphasise that this is a _female_ student, not just _a_ student?


_En tant qu'étudiante, et donc en tant que femme, je pense que blablabla_ ?


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## mally pense

Isn't it odd that having no gender distinction in the noun allows the use of "female" as an adjective to sound so natural in English, while in French the fact that the gender is already inherent makes it seem so completely unnatural to re-state it, even if only for emphasis?



> _En tant qu'étudiante, et donc en tant que femme, je pense que blablabla ?_


 
I can see that that works, but I'm not sure it isn't introducing an extra element to the translation that wasn't present or intended in the original. "Speaking as a student and as a woman" is not really the same thing as "speaking as a female student", but it might possibly be an acceptable compromise I suppose.


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## Bisou82

There will be no exact equivalent anyway indeed.

Or we paraphrase: _En tant qu'étudiante, et donc apportant un point de vue féminin... _or _En tant qu'étudiante, et j'apporte donc là un point de vue féminin...

_But it's becoming a bit long !!


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## Cath.S.

xtrasystole said:


> This sounds quite smooth and clear to me: _'*De mon point de vue d'étudiante*, je crois qu'il est nécessaire que...'_


Ir seems perfect to me to. All the other "carefully thought" translations we suggested - and that includes my own - sound exactly like what they are and, therefore, are bad translations imo.


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## kiwi-di

egueule said:


> _*[**De mon point de vue d'étudiante*] _It seems perfect to me to. All the other "carefully thought" translations we suggested - and that includes my own - sound exactly like what they are and, therefore, are bad translations imo.



But if a female just wanted to say "speaking from a student's point of view" this is surely what she would say.   

So in my humble opinion, there does need to be something to indicate that she's speaking as a _female _student, not just a student who happens to be of the female gender.


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## Cath.S.

But a_ female student is just a student who happens to be of the female gender; _ how can a woman expressing_ her own opinion_ express anything else than a female opinion?
Furthermore, if the issue is gender related, what she means by _de mon point de vue d'étudiante_ will become obvious, won't it? And if it is not gender related, why bother with an immaterial nuance?


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## mally pense

Because there will be issues presumably that affect her as a female student, not just as a student. Of course,we could wait to hear the actual points of view, in which case it would probably become apparent, but she wants to state her viewpoint (her context lol) at the outset, otherwise why would she even be saying this at all.


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## xtrasystole

kiwi-di said:


> there does need to be something to indicate that she's speaking as a _female _student, not just a student who happens to be of the female gender


Indeed, I believe the phrase _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante...'_ does fit that idea. 

Eg: _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, il n'y a plus assez de garçons dans les facultés de médecine'_.


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## kiwi-di

xtrasystole said:


> Indeed, I believe the phrase _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante...'_ does fit that idea.
> 
> Eg: _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, il n'y a plus assez de garçons dans les facultés de médecine'_.



So you are saying that the context indicates that you're speaking from the female point of view?

I think the thing that is concerning the English-speaking contributors to this thread, is that in English there is a *subtle *distinction between a _female student_ and a _student, _whereas in French you seem to be unable to make this distinction (except by the context of what is being said) because any female student will always use the word _étudiant*e,*_ regardless of whether she is putting the *student *point of view or the_* female *one._


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## KaRiNe_Fr

If you want to stress a lot it's a female point of view, why not saying « ... en tant qu'étudiante et femme... » ?
If you don't want to be that explicit, just say « étudiante » it's enough.
Ceci n'est que le point de vue d'une forera.


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## mally pense

_cette femme d'étudiante_ ?

(peut-être pas)


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## givemeabeach

" how can a woman expressing_ her own opinion_ express anything else than a female opinion?"

That's really the point that can't be translated. If she said in English "from my point of view as a student", you could say she is female and thus in a way her point of view is obviously a female one  - but if she says "from a female student's point of view", she is implying that her point of view is likely to be shared by other female students, and understood by them - she's expressing a certain solidarity that would not come across in French with just "etudiante".


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## kiwi-di

givemeabeach said:


> " how can a woman expressing_ her own opinion_ express anything else than a female opinion?"
> 
> THat's really the point that can't be translated. If she said in English "from my point of view as a student", you could say she is female and thus in a way her point of view is obviously a female one - but if she says "from a female student's point of view", she is implying that her point of view is likely to be shared by other female students, and understood by them - she's expressing a certain solidarity that would not come across in French with just "etudiante".



givemeabeach - you've got it in one.   

However, when a French female such as egueule doesn't seem to think there's a problem, I suspect there just isn't a way in French to differentiate what we English-speakers have no problem in expressing.



> Originally Posted by *egueule*
> 
> _*[**De mon point de vue d'étudiante*] _It seems perfect to me.
> 
> "how can a woman expressing_ her own opinion_ express anything else than a female opinion?"


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## Moon Palace

I have tried to read the thread carefully, and I tend to think there is a need for a specific translation, you can't leave it at 'de mon point de vue d'étudiante', something is missing here. 
Depending on what the person intends to say, she could well say 'de mon point de vue d'étudiante, et en tant que représentante du sexe féminin', but this verges on feminism, so you need to check with the context. 
it could be made shorter by using brackets or hyphens 'de mon point de vue d'étudiante - et plus particulièrement en tant que femme - blablabla'

Those were my modest two cents. Hope it helps.


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## Amda Zako

I agree with Karine_Fr's suggestion: _En tant qu'étudiante et femme_, or better yet: _En tant que femme et étudiante_ (étudiante adding extra info after femme).

But the context must determine what you want to emphasise


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## Moon Palace

Amda Zako said:


> _En tant que femme et étudiante_ (étudiante adding extra info after femme).
> 
> But the context must determine what you want to emphasise


That one gets my vote for a neutral context. 
(_étudiante et femme_ sounds weird since the female part is already contained in '_étudiante'_, whereas reverting them seems more logical as you pointed out).


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## Bisou82

What about what I said before: "En tant qu'étudiante, et donc apportant un point de vue féminin...." ?


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## givemeabeach

Not really, a lot of female students would be offended if someone suggested that _because_ they are female, their viewpoint is necessarily expressive of that of women in general, or is anyway different from that of a man - unless they specifically want to make posit themselves as somehow representative of female students.


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## kiwi-di

Amda Zako said:


> _En tant que femme et étudiante_



Bravo.  It's only taken about 12 hours, but I knew we'd get there in the end.


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## Cath.S.

_En tant que femme et étudiante_ *pourrait *être une bonne solution - comment le savoir, nous n'avons pas eu le contexte réclamé plus tôt.
Pour montrer à quel point le contexte est important, comment savons-nous même que la personne qui parle est bien _étudiante_ et non pas _élève_, et que c'est une _femme_ et non une (petite) _fille_ ?
Une gamine de 10 ans scolarisée est aussi une _female student, après tout_.


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## kiwi-di

egueule said:


> comment le savoir, nous n'avons pas eu le contexte réclamé plus tôt.


Because there's a _je ne sais quoi_ in the English expression that we natives instinctively understood, and which we had trouble conveying to the French natives.


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## Cath.S.

kiwi-di said:


> Because there's a _je ne sais quoi_ in the English expression that we natives instinctively understood, and which we had trouble conveying to the French natives.


Je me permets d'insister. Je comprends fort bien la nuance, mais je persiste à dire que dans certains cas _étudiante _suffirait amplement. _En tant que femme et étudiante_ insiste* lourdement* sur _female_, et a un ton très militant, alors qu'_étudiante_ peut être employé pour souligner le fait que la personne qui parle est de sexe féminin, mais de manière plus subtile.
Je ne réclame pas du contexte parce que ça m'amuse, mais parce que c'est nécessaire. 

D'autre part, que fais-tu de l'objection que j'ai soulevée ?


> Pour montrer à quel point le contexte est important, comment savons-nous même que la personne qui parle est bien _étudiante_ et non pas _élève_, et que c'est une _femme_ et non une (petite) _fille_ ?
> Une gamine de 10 ans scolarisée est aussi une _female student, après tout_.


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## xtrasystole

kiwi-di said:


> So you are saying that the context indicates that you're speaking from the female point of view?
> 
> I think the thing that is concerning the English-speaking contributors to this thread, is that in English there is a *subtle *distinction between a _female student_ and a _student, _whereas in French you seem to be unable to make this distinction (except by the context of what is being said) because any female student will always use the word _étudiant*e,*_ regardless of whether she is putting the *student *point of view or the_* female *one._


I think you summed it up nicely there, kiwi. In French that distinction is made by the context only:_- 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, le coût des études est trop élevé' _(student's point of view, implied by context), 
_- 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, il n'y a plus assez de garçons à l'université' _(female point of view, implied by context), ​unless there is a risk of confusion in which case you have to resort to rather clumsy expressions such as _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante et de femme,...'_ (couldn't find an example though...)


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## givemeabeach

egueule said:


> Je me permets d'insister. Je comprends fort bien la nuance, mais je persiste à dire que dans certains cas _étudiante _suffirait amplement. _En tant que femme et étudiante_ insiste* lourdement* sur _female_, et a un ton très militant, alors qu'_étudiante_ peut être employé pour souligner le fait que la personne qui parle est de sexe féminin, mais de manière plus subtile.




Well, in English we don't ever point out that we're speaking "as a woman" unless we're making a generalized "female point of view" statement. It is not a question of anyone simply pointing out that the speaker is a woman. So it is a little militant.




egueule said:


> D'autre part, que fais-tu de l'objection que j'ai soulevée ?



If it is a girl - say a 14-year-old, it wouldn't change the essence of the problem, but the French version would of course use "_élève_" and "fille"


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## Teafrog

My 2 (voting) cents:


KaRiNe_Fr said:


> If you want to stress a lot it's a female point of view, why not saying « ... en tant qu'étudiante et femme... » ?
> If you don't want to be that explicit, just say « étudiante » it's enough.
> Ceci n'est que le point de vue d'une forera.


I reckon that settles it , as it offers 3 possibilities.

Speaking as a student = en tant qu'étudiante
Speaking as a female student = en tant qu'étudiante et femme, placing the emphasis, imo, on “étudiante” (student), and mentionning the gender as being also relevant
Speaking as a female student = en tant que femme et étudiante, placing the emphasis “femme” (gender), mentionning the fact that being a student is also relevant.
.


givemeabeach said:


> " how can a woman expressing her own opinion express anything else than a female opinion?"
> 
> That's really the point that can't be translated. If she said in English "from my point of view as a student", you could say she is female and thus in a way her point of view is obviously a female one - but if she says "from a female student's point of view", she is implying that her point of view is likely to be shared by other female students, and understood by them - she's expressing a certain solidarity that would not come across in French with just "etudiante".


It can be adequately translated, see KaRiNe_Fr post #18.
For the record, a woman can express her opinion as a student only: if a man, or woman, want to express an opinion as a student (rather than from a working person’s point of view), then the fact that s/he is female/male is immaterial (étudiant ou étudiante, c'est kif-kif…)
If a female student wants to express that her point of view is influenced primarily by her gender, then she has that option in both languages. In French it has to be stressed differently. Simply using “étudiante” doesn’t cut the mustard.



Amda Zako said:


> I agree with Karine_Fr's suggestion: En tant qu'étudiante et femme, or better yet: En tant que femme et étudiante (étudiante adding extra info after femme).
> 
> But the context must determine what you want to emphasise


Exactly! Thank you Amda Zako and Karine_Fr 



xtrasystole said:


> I think you summed it up nicely there, kiwi. In French that distinction is made by the context only:
> 
> - 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, le coût des études est trop élevé' (student's point of view, implied by context),
> - 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante, il n'y a plus assez de garçons à l'université' (female point of view, implied by context),
> 
> unless there is a risk of confusion in which case you have to resort to rather clumsy expressions such as 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante et de femme,...' (couldn't find an example though...)


I agree with that, but take exception with “rather clumsy”, as I think that’s fine depending on what ‘angle’ you wish  to emphasise 

My vote is for Amda Zako and Karine_Fr’s suggestions
Voilà voila


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## Cath.S.

Xtrasystole said:
			
		

> unless there is a risk of confusion in which case you have to resort to rather clumsy expressions such as _'De mon point de vue d'étudiante et de femme,...'_ (*couldn't find an example though*...)


I can't either. And I'm not surprised.
Who can?

Est-ce que les ardents supporters de 'De mon point de vue d'étudiante et de femme pourraient consacrer une minute de leur temps à chercher "étudiante et femme" sur Google  et comparer le minuscule nombre de résultats (et leur contexte, évidemment, qui n'a aucun rapport avec ce que nous essayons d'exprimer ici) avec la même recherche menée sur female student ? Je sais que les moteurs de recherche ne sont pas la sokution miracle, mais ils constituent tout de même une bonne indication de l'usage (ou de l'absence d'usage) d'une expression.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hé hé. Pour insister sur un cumul de « fonctions » on mentionne souvent les deux fonctions : députée et mère de famille; chef d'entreprise et maman... etc Mais avec « étudiante et femme » c'est bien bizarre, parce que dans étudiante on « entend » déjà femme !  (comme l'a dit justement <chaipuki>)
J'avais mis des si et un point d'interrogation pour cette proposition, tout le monde ne les a pas bien lus. 
Étudiante tout court suffira dans bien des contextes... qu'on n'a toujours pas, effectivement !  (que quelqu'un aille prévenir stargirlamy à la bibliothèque de la fac !)


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## orlando09

Bisou82 said:


> I agree, it looks like the emphasis is on the _female_. Could we say:
> 
> "En tant qu'étudiantE ... "... stressing on the E as i guess the context is a speech or debate, well it's spoken.


 
IMO this could be a subtle and natural way to do it (but heavy stress on _"ante"_ not just the_ "e")_ although it could be missed perhaps_._ It's a tricky one and I fully agree that_ "en tant qu'étudiante_ on its own does not convey the same as the deliberate choice of "female student"). It also depends on the context. If it is already clear from the context that the speaker is a student, for example, the translation could jst be "as a woman, I feel...."


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## Nicomon

Il suffit de « googler » "female student" + "étudiante" pour trouver des tas d'exemples bilingues de ce genre:



> - One is awarded to a male student and one to a *female student*. Une bourse d'études est accordée annuellement à une *étudiante* et un étudiant autochtones
> - Je compte sur n’importe quelle *étudiante*: I am counting on any *female student*.
> - Suzanne Lanery s'est en outre distinguée avec le prix de la meilleure *étudiante* (best *female student* price),
> - une *étudiante* attentive (an attentive *female student*) *......*
> - L'*étudiante* entre dans la Salle. - The (*female) student* enters into the classroom.


 
Je crois aussi que femme est « superfétatoire ». Si toutefois l'étudiante veut exprimer un point de vue féminin, je dirais _de mon point de vue féminin/de femme_ (sans préciser étudiante). 

Dans un contexte écrit, je crois que female student est simplement précisé pour que le lecteur sache que c'est l'opinion d'une étudiante et non d'un étudiant. En français, le E élimine la nécessité de la précision. 

J'aime par contre la suggestion subtile de Bizou82 de mettre une capitale à édudiantE.


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## Moon Palace

Your examples are interesting, Nicomon, but none of them deals with a woman speaking about herself. Isn't it obvious when a woman speaks that she is a woman? This is what compels us I believe to add something in the translation. Would any woman say in English 'as a female worker' without any intention of emphasis on 'female'? 
No other suggestion than Karine's and Amda Zako's.


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## coup de hache

"en tant qu'etudiante - et je dis bien etudiante - je crois que..."

non?


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## Nicomon

Moon Palace said:


> Your examples are interesting, Nicomon, but none of them deals with a woman speaking about herself. Isn't it obvious when a woman speaks that she is a woman? This is what compels us I believe to add something in the translation. Would any woman say in English 'as a female worker' without any intention of emphasis on 'female'?
> No other suggestion than Karine's and Amda Zako's.


 
As I specified, I think that *in writing *- we don't know for sure that this is a speech, in front of people do we? - a female student could specify female, since feminine isn't implied in the word student. She may want to make it clear that she's not a boy/man (for a reason or another). If a speech in front of people, then yes, I agree that Karine's and Amda's solutions might work. But my point mainly was that we normally wouldn't need to say both... see Orlando's post # 37. 

female worker = femme au travail isn't the same thing... I don't think.


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## hoshiko

Hi all!

What about "D'un point de vue estudiantin et féminin,..." (ou "féminin et estudiantin" depending on the most important point of view)?
Imho, it places on the same grammatical and sociological levels "student" and "female".


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## Nicomon

_Estudiantin_ is not a word I would normally use.  But then how about...
_(jeune) femme aux études_  (on the same model as femme au travail)?


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## hoshiko

Yes, I know "estudiantin" is little used, but if you're speaking to other students or teachers, I guess they wouldn't find it too weird.
_Nicomon, your "femme aux études"_ doesn't sound French to me, but it conveys well the idea of "female student".
I'd rather say "femme qui fait des études" even if it is heavier.
Well, we often need "périphrases" in French to translate English words


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## Nicomon

> _Nicomon, your "femme aux études"_ doesn't sound French to me


 
My mistake.  I should have guessed that « aux études », which is very common in Quebec, might be a regionalism.

We say _je suis/il est aux études_. _Être aux études à temps plein/partiel_.  _Enfants aux études. _Therefore _Femme aux études_ does sound French to my Quebecer ears.


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## hoshiko

Lol
I understand you: Coming from the South-West of France and being in Paris, I have my own regionalisms, too!!

"Enfant/élève aux études" could be misunderstood in France as it looks like "enfant/élève à l'étude" which means the pupil is at school but in a  special (although ordinary) room where pupils are kept to learn their lessons or do their homework when a teacher is missing or they have a normal gap in their schedule (!) or before the moment their parents or the bus can pick them up.

(Remember that French pupils under the age of 12 leave school at 4:30pm and after the age of 12, they sometimes leave at 4pm but rather 5 or 6pm!!)


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## Cath.S.

_As a female student of color in a dominantly White classroom, I cannot just be an individual and student of literature_
_En tant qu'étudiante de couleur dans une classe majoritairement composée de Blancs, il m'est impossible d'être simplement un individu qui étudie la littérature._

_It is highly advantageous, as a female student, to actually work through case studies that showcase women protagonists. _
_Il est fort avantageux, pour une étudiante, de travailler sur des études de cas mettant en valeur des protagonistes femmes._

_Once, as a female student at HLS in the early '60s, she was "taking the place of a man." _
_Fut un temps où, en tant qu'étudiante en Droit à Harvard dans les années 1960, elle « prenait la place d'un homme »._

_I have witnessed and experienced it firsthand as a female student, having suffered sexual harassment from a male faculty member_
_J'en ai été témoin et j'en ai fait l'expérience personnelle en tant qu'étudiante, ayant été victime de harcèlement sexuel de la part d'un enseignant._


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## xtrasystole

egueule, your examples are quite clear. 

_'As a female student'_ is best translated as _'En tant qu'étudiante'_ and certainly needs no clumsy constructions.


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## Nicomon

xtrasystole said:


> egueule, your examples are quite clear.
> 
> _'As a female student'_ is best translated as _'En tant qu'étudiante'_ and certainly needs no clumsy constructions.


 
I agree entirely.


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## Amda Zako

Wow! Is this thread successful, or what? Where have you gone Stargirlamy? Only you can give us the full sentence. Because other examples go the other way:

_Speaking as a female student, I cannot consider war on Iran without thinking about the horrendous human cost it would involve._
En tant que femme et étudiante...

_Speaking as a female student of political science, it is clear to me that no significant improvement in social welfare is forthcoming as long as the political agenda is dictated by profit-hungry corporations...
_(Good luck with that one )


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## Cath.S.

_



Speaking as a female student, I cannot consider war on Iran without thinking about the horrendous human cost it would involve.

Click to expand...

_


> _*En tant que femme et étudiante*..._


Ah bon ? Pourquoi donc ? 
La même opinion pourrait être professée par un étudiant. Ou par n'importe qui, d'ailleurs.
_En tant qu'étudiante_ me semble bien suffisant.


> _Speaking as a female student of political science, it is clear to me that no significant improvement in social welfare is forthcoming as long as the political agenda is dictated by profit-hungry corporations..._
> _(Good luck with that one )_


_En tant qu'étudiante en science po, blablabla..._
_Honnêtement je ne vois pas le problème._


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## Moon Palace

_As a female forero, I am slightly disappointed to see that women's condition is not seen to go beyond the mere sexual identity. _

_As a female citizen of Saudi Arabia, I wish women were allowed to drive and thus be considered on a par with men. _

We need context... this is why the thread is long and the dilemma remains.


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## Amda Zako

egueule, you refuse to accept that if an étudiante wanted to speak merely as an étudiante, she would just say "As a student..."

The fact that the same opinion could, in our view, be voiced by a man, is not relevant here. I spent a couple of years in university in North America and I can tell you many people consider that men and women think differently about a whole lot of issues, even if they are not apparently gender-related.


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## Nicomon

Moon Palace said:


> _As a female forero, I am slightly disappointed to see that women's condition is not seen to go beyond the mere sexual identity. _
> 
> _As a female citizen of Saudi Arabia, I wish women were allowed to drive and thus be considered on a par with men. _
> 
> We need context... this is why the thread is long and the dilemma remains.


 
En tant que forera...
En tant qu'Arabie que Saoudienne OU femme vivant en/de l'Arabie Saoudite...

See? In this case, it is clear that you're giving a woman's point of view. I'll say again that you very rarely need both. I wouldn't say femme et citoyenne...


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## givemeabeach

How could one translate it in this context, for example:

A debate about lighting on campus. 

Ms A. - "as a student, I believe we should turn off the outside lighting after midnight to reduce our use of electricity". 

Ms B. - "speaking from a female student's point of view, I think we should increase the outside lighting on campus".


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## Moon Palace

Nicomon said:


> En tant que forera...
> En tant qu'Arabie Saoudienne OU femme vivant en/de l'Arabie Saoudite...
> 
> See? In this case, it is clear that you're giving a woman's point of view. I'll say again that you very rarely need both. I wouldn't say femme et citoyenne...


 
Nicomon , I agree with you on the fact that it may not be commonplace, but in givemeabeach's example, it is clearly not ambiguous and the translation requires the addition of 'femme'. 
In my examples, it is interesting to see that you wouldn't use _'femme'_ when I had _'femme'_ in mind when writing them. Which points to context again as the decisive element: not only the rest of the sentence, but also the global view of the locutor in _her_ message. 
I would have said 'en tant que citoyenne et en tant que femme...' (because I had in mind the idea of human rights, the status of citizen of a country, and the women's condition at the same time. To me, they endow you with different characteristics - however hard we may fight for equality ). 
By the way, is '_Arabie Saoudienne' _the way of calling _'Saoudienne' _in Quebec? I would have said merely _'Saoudienne_'.


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## Cath.S.

givemeabeach said:
			
		

> How could one translate it in this context, for example:
> 
> A debate about lighting on campus.
> 
> Ms A. - "as a student, I believe we should turn off the outside lighting after midnight to reduce our use of electricity".
> Mlle A. : Moi, *en tant qu'étudiante*, je pense que nous devrions éteindre les lumières extérieures après minuit afin d'économiser l'électricité.
> 
> Ms B. - "speaking from a female student's point of view, I think we should increase the outside lighting on campus".
> Mlle B : Eh bien moi, *de mon point de vue de femme*, je crois qu'il faut au contraire éclairer davantage l'extérieur du campus.


C'est ce que dirait Mlle B, ou même la plus farouche militante féministe de la fac, parce que le mot clé de la phrase est ici *female *et non pas student.

Amda Zako, je ne refuse pas de voir quoi que ce soit, c'est au contraire _toi _qui refuses d'accepter que l'anglais _female student_ ne constitue pas un concept différent, mais que le français l'exprime autrement. Tu essaies de faire rentrer de force dans le langage une expression qui n'est employée qu'exceptionnellement, je suis bien certaine que _personne_ ici n'a jamais entendu en tant que femme et étudiante dans la vraie vie (à la limite, le maladroit *en tant qu'étudiante femme* me semblerait même plus probable) et je vous renvoie toutes et tous  une fois de plus à ma recherche Google - qui ne constitue certes pas une preuve _etc._

Je trouve que c'est carrément bizarre, de la part d'un traducteur, de vouloir à tout prix traduire une expression parfaitement idiomatique et banale de la langue d'origine par une expression dont le côté artificiel saute aux yeux.


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## xtrasystole

I'm with egueule on this.


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## hoshiko

I could have been both Ms A and Ms B (and I am a feminist, too ;-p)

When I was a student I could have said "As an English litterature student, I wish I didn't have teachers that regretted they couldn't shoot the burglar who came to their houses" but I could have said too "As a female student, I wish I didn't leave at 7pm when it's dark in a frightening area" (et je n'invente aucun des 2!).
It depends on the context...

The problem with this translation is that we don't know if there is a big stress on "female" or not (although I think there is).
If there is none, "étudiante" is Ok with me: if there is, "femme et étudiante" (or the likes) fits better, imho.

I already spoke of my concerns as a student in French, and I said "En tant qu'étudiante en littérature anglaise..." and "En tant qu'étudiante-fille..." (or the likes, I can't remember exactly: I was a student during the 20th century! ;-p ).
My male fellows were not as scared of leaving late as I was (or they didn't show!), so I think, depending on the context, "étudiante" may not sound strong enough compared to the adding of "femme".


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## Nicomon

xtrasystole said:


> I'm with egueule on this.


 
Make that 2.  


And Moon, of course not... we don't say Arabie Saoudienne in Quebec. 
I posted this reply before having my first coffee this AM.


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## Amda Zako

egueule, I think your translations of givemeabeach's examples are excellent

I also agree that "en tant que femme et étudiante" would only be used in the rare circumstances where the speaker's identity as a woman and a student carry equal weight. Otherwise you'd lean towards one or the other.

Perhaps we also agree now that "En tant qu'étudiante" is not the same as "As a female student" - but means in most instances "As a student". An édudiante is usually a student who happens to be female. If somebody goes to the trouble of mentioning that she is speaking as a female student, that will need emphasising in the translation (as you do in your examples using rest of your sentences).


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## Moon Palace

Although I agree with your translation, egueule, I wonder why the English speaker wouldn't have said in that case simply 'as a woman'? 



> An édudiante is usually a student who happens to be female. If somebody goes to the trouble of mentioning that she is speaking as a female student, that will need emphasising in the translation (as you do in your examples using rest of your sentences).


This is what the translation of 'en tant qu'étudiante et femme' rests on. (the research on google does indeed provide very few results, yet if you look here, it appears that the two points of view (that of a woman's) and that of a student's) are usually not in the same sentence, because they have different purposes (as a student XXX and as a woman YYY). 
All in all, I would say we all agree it is not common, even rare. Yet we cannot rule out the fact that a student's point of view may not be always enough to cover a female student's viewpoint. And only context and the locutor's mindset can help distinguish between the two. 
Will this help us reach consensus?


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## mally pense

No, clearly not. There is a strong division of opinion which I don't think will be resolved. For myself I will just say this:

1. There _is_ most definitely a strong emphasis on the "female" aspect in the original. The word is absolutely unnecessary in English unless it has been placed in the original sentence specifically to emphasise the point. There is no way that its inclusion cannot be considered significant regardless of context.

2. Translating merely as 'en tant qu'étudiante' just because it causes less offence to some ears _loses_ information. Translation back into English from this, I think everyone here would agree, loses the "female" emphasis, and would result in "speaking from a student's point of view". If I was the writer or speaker of the original sentence, I would not want my meaning to be misrepresented simply because the translator had difficulty finding as aesthetically pleasing form of words. The inportant thing in communicating someone's point of view is to NOT misprepresent them. Making them sound 'good' but changing their message in doing so is not an ethical option in my opinion.


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## orlando09

xtrasystole said:


> egueule, your examples are quite clear.
> 
> _'As a female student'_ is best translated as _'En tant qu'étudiante'_ and certainly needs no clumsy constructions.


 
I agree on the whole, especially the last three, but the one where she says:


_As a female student of color in a dominantly White classroom, I cannot just be an individual and student of literature_
_En tant qu'étudiante de couleur dans une classe majoritairement composée de Blancs, il m'est impossible d'être simplement un individu qui étudie la littérature._

she is most likely trying to stress both her femaleness and her blackness, otherwise she would have just said "student". In the other three the fact that her gender is relevant becomes clear from the context, without the deliberate stress on "female" in the English_._

_[__As a female student of color in a dominantly White classroom, I cannot just be an individual and student of literature_
_En tant qu'étudiante de couleur dans une classe majoritairement composée de Blancs, il m'est impossible d'être simplement un individu qui étudie la littérature.

It is highly advantageous, as a female student, to actually work through case studies that showcase women protagonists. 
Il est fort avantageux, pour une étudiante, de travailler sur des études de cas mettant en valeur des protagonistes femmes.

__Once, as a female student at HLS in the early '60s, she was "taking the place of a man." _
_Fut un temps où, en tant qu'étudiante en Droit à Harvard dans les années 1960, elle « prenait la place d'un homme ».

I have witnessed and experienced it firsthand as a female student, having suffered sexual harassment from a male faculty member
J'en ai été témoin et j'en ai fait l'expérience personnelle en tant qu'étudiante, ayant été victime de harcèlement sexuel de la part d'un enseignant._ ]


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## Cath.S.

Orlando09 said:
			
		

> I agree on the whole, especially the last three, but the one where she says:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _As a female student of color in a dominantly White classroom, I cannot just be an individual and student of literature_
> _En tant qu'étudiante de couleur dans une classe majoritairement composée de Blancs, il m'est impossible d'être simplement un individu qui étudie la littérature._
Click to expand...

Bonjour Orlando, bonjour tout le monde.

Je te remercie de faire valoir ce point de vue. Je viens de me rendre compte que ce qui me gênait (et me gêne toujours) fondamentalement dans la formule _en tant que femme et étudiante_, outre ce que j'ai déjà expliqué, c'était le côté littéral, le côté « essayons de faire aussi concis que l'anglais, cette langue merveilleusement synthétique ».



Uniquement dans des cas très spécifiques où il serait effectivement essentiel de mettre l'accent sur le double statut de la locutrice, je me sentirais plus à l'aise avec une phrase de type
_En tant qu'étudiante, et / mais aussi en tant que femme._
Cette formulation me semblerait beaucoup plus satisfaisante et naturelle, même elle n'est pas brève. La concision est une vertu mineure à mes yeux, j'aime les phrases rythmées.



			
				Mally Pense said:
			
		

> Translation back into English from this, I think everyone here would agree, loses the "female" emphasis, and would result in "speaking from a student's point of view".


I'm afraid this is total nonsense. A good translator knows when to translate_ étudiante_ to _student _and when to translate it to _female student_.


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## Nothome

Fascinating discussion though I'm not sure I'm any the wiser - better informed for sure. 
I was wondering what approach would one take when there is no male/female  option. For example "speaking as a female civil sevant" - "fonctionnaire" in french I think with female no equivalent(?). What about doctor/medecin? Infirmiere? Is a male nurse "un infirmier". The gender thing in translating from/to English - obviously even more of a minefield then I suspected.


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## Nicomon

> =orlando09;3609810]I agree on the whole, especially the last three, but the one where she says:
> 
> _As a female student of color in a dominantly White classroom, I cannot just be an individual and student of literature_
> _En tant qu'étudiante de couleur dans une classe majoritairement composée de Blancs, il m'est impossible d'être simplement un individu qui étudie la littérature._
> 
> she is most likely trying to stress both her *femaleness* and her *blackness*, otherwise she would have just said "student". In the other three the fact that her gender is relevant becomes clear from the context, without the deliberate stress on "female" in the English_._


 
But then here, classroom and the repetition of student make it obvious that she's a student. In which case I believe you can say : _En tant que femme de couleur dans une classe... _Once again, I don't think you need both.


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## mally pense

egueule said:


> I'm afraid this is total nonsense. A good translator knows when to translate_ étudiante_ to _student _and when to translate it to _female student_.


 
You mean of course "_With respect_, I'm afraid this is total nonsense".

Or maybe not. 

Anyway, I admire your confidence, though I'm not sure how well founded it is. In an ideal world, yes, all translators would be _good_ translators, and no-one would ever have to provide a synopsis such as "Ms X then gave her point of view as a student, followed by Mr Y who discussed zzz", and there would be no disagreement between translators on this issue. 

Obviously I don't know how many of the participants in this particular discussion (if any) _are_ translators, or indeed, just how good they are and whether they are agreed on this issue, but the evidence of the discussion so far points to a strong bipolar disagreement, and I personally would not want to rely on the 'goodness' of the translator to reconstitute the information which is at least potentially lost in translation.


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## mally pense

Nothome said:


> Fascinating discussion though I'm not sure I'm any the wiser - better informed for sure.
> I was wondering what approach would one take when there is no male/female option. For example "speaking as a female civil sevant" - "fonctionnaire" in french I think with female no equivalent(?). What about doctor/medecin? Infirmiere? Is a male nurse "un infirmier". The gender thing in translating from/to English - obviously even more of a minefield then I suspected.


 
This is a good approach, taking a sideways look at the issue to see if it can illustrate perhaps the different ways different people are seeing it. Inspired by this, I was trying to think of examples in English where the same occupation/role is distinguished by different words for the two sexes, because possibly they might illustrate to native English speakers how some (but not all) native French speakers are seeing it.

Unfortunately the only examples I've come up with so far (both French in origin) are "chauffeur/euse and masseur/euse", and I'm not sure how useful these are. In the first instance, I'm not even sure chauffeuse is used enough for the example to be meaningful, and in the second, I think there's too many overloaded meanings put onto the words, so it's not really a neutral gender equivalent (or some similar random expression!). But maybe someone else can think of some better examples?


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## Amda Zako

A female chauffeur in English is a "chauffeuse"? That's hilarious!

Mally Pense, about your post number 62, I think a translator also has to try to convey the _feel_ of the original text. The greatest challenge being of course translating literature and (!!!) poetry. It's quite striking to see how completely different the many translations of the Odyssey are.

Challenge for non-feminists. Translate:
As a female translator, I was dismayed to find myself participating in what was increasingly looking like a linguistic pissing contest.


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## Cath.S.

> Challenge for non-feminists. Translate:
> As a female translator, I was dismayed to find myself participating in what was increasingly looking like a linguistic pissing contest.


I'm really sorry I can't rise to the challenge, as a feminist female translator! 
Cette discussion aura été salement passionnante, mais ma propre vessie est désormais vide et je cède la place aux grands buveurs.


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## mally pense

Amda Zako said:


> A female chauffeur in English is a "chauffeuse"? That's hilarious!
> 
> Mally Pense, about your post number 62, I think a translator also has to try to convey the _feel_ of the original text. The greatest challenge being of course translating literature and (!!!) poetry. It's quite striking to see how completely different the many translations of the Odyssey are.
> 
> Challenge for non-feminists. Translate:
> As a female translator, I was dismayed to find myself participating in what was increasingly looking like a linguistic pissing contest.


 
Your challenge is hypothetical of course, but really, there's no need and no place for contests of any sort in these forums, which was why I was happy to state that I don't think this difference will be resolved. And there's no reason why it should be. It won't change the world even if we agree. We should be happy to respect and try to understand each others opinions, and I'm more than happy to do that, especially as it means that we all learn so much more in so doing, feminists, or female, or otherwise. (Can one have a male feminist by the way?)


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## Moon Palace

> As a female translator, I was dismayed to find myself participating in what was increasingly looking like a linguistic pissing contest.


Love that one  I suppose this was written by a _male feminist,_ Mally Pense . 
Rather than a hat, I will partly drop my mask and reveal I am not a translator, but as a female teacher (no female word for that one, _professeuse* _does not exist yet, and I take advantage to say here that I would rather sit on a _chauffeuse _than on a _chauffeur )_, I wish we had found common grounds on this linguistic and somewhat feminist issue. I feel sorry for being unable to convince (one of my favourite hobbies in case it escaped your notice ). And in this sentence I would be very annoyed if one omitted either _female_ or _teacher _in the translation. 
Now I have not studied the level of my own bladder, but I know I have no other argument than my earnestness which I generously provided in this thread. And I have to preserve the supply for other issues. 
It was sheer delight to debate this question with such brilliant foreros.


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## Cath.S.

Moon Palace said:
			
		

> but as a female teacher (no female word for that one, _professeuse* _does not exist yet,


But_ enseignante _still did last time I looked. 

 Une dernière gouttelette qui je l'espère ne fera pas déborder le vase.


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## Moon Palace

egueule said:


> Une dernière gouttelette qui je l'espère ne fera pas déborder le vase.


Nothing is overflowing, egueule, part of my identity has only been reduced to an _'e'_.


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