# Nowy/nowego



## piyopiyo

Hello,

can you explain me why it is nowy in the first sentence and nowego in the second?

On chce kupic nowy samochód
On chce kupic nowego forda

Thanks,

Bruno


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## kirahvi

Genitive is always used with names of car brands. The same goes for cigarettes and dances (tańczyć walca/poloneza ALE tańczyć tango) etc. I think there's a similar rule to some brands of chocolates too, but I'm not sure.

Disclaimer: I'm not a native speaker and I've only ever taken Polish classes for 2 weeks, so it might be best to wait for a second opinion.


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## piyopiyo

Wow, thank you! Only two weeks? I've been learning it for months but I never heard of this!

Thanks again 

Bruno


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## Thomas1

kirahvi said:


> Genitive is always used with names of car brands. The same goes for cigarettes and dances (tańczyć walca/poloneza ALE tańczyć tango) etc. I think there's a similar rule to some brands of chocolates too, but I'm not sure.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm not a native speaker and I've only ever taken Polish classes for 2 weeks, so it might be best to wait for a second opinion.


In the case of brand names it is also the accusative, 'kupić' requires this case in declarative sentences. It looks that brand names are treated like animate nouns, so it's the question 'kogo?', otherwise 'co?':
Kupuję nowy samochód/nowego forda/nową skodę/nowe toledo.
Compare: widzieć + accusative
Widzę nowy samochód/szczęśliwego Piotra/szczęśliwą Hanię/szczęśliwe dziecko.
Widzę nowy samochód/nowego forda/nową skodę/nowe toledo.

Note that in negative sentences it's the genitive:
Nie kupuję nowego samochodu/nowego forda/nowej skody/nowego toledo.


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## piyopiyo

Ah ok so that's the point.. brands are treated like animate nouns! And in animate nouns, genitive and accusative are the same, while for not animate nouns nominative and accusative are the same... that's difficult to remember.. 
Thank you!

Bruno


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## LilianaB

Unfortunately Genitive is not always used with car brands:kupic Polonez, kupic Fiata, kupic Mercedes, kupic Opel, kupic Lincoln. It is the Accusative mostly. Fiata is the Genitive or perhaps even it is the animate form of the Accusative. It depends what verb we are using. If we are using a verb that goes with the Genitive, it might be the Genitive then. Also a negation triggers a Genitive use. It is the verb that governs the case in Polish and in other Slavic languages.

It also depends which declension the Noun belongs to. Kupię suknię.
                                                                         Kupie rower. Nie rowera.


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## Thomas1

Sorry Liliana but these are not correct:





LilianaB said:


> Unfortunately Genitive is not always used with car brands:kupic Poloneza, kupic Fiata, kupic Mercedesa, kupic Opel Opla, kupic Lincolna.



PS: one more thing, all the brand names used to mean a car ba X brand should read in the lower case.


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## LilianaB

No, they are correct by the rules of traditional Polish grammar they are correct. In borrowings the Nominative should be used in most cases. I hate skena as weel, but what can you do. People in Poland choose to use skena, maila itp.

The form depends also to which declension the noun belongs. If it is feminine or masculine.

Some brands may simply have to do with traditional pronunciation and phonetics.

The situation may change in some cases when you use the adjective, a noun modified by an adjective.


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## Thomas1

You will have to give some sources on that please. I can't really imagine anyone saying: Piotr jeździ poonez/ford/mercedes/skoda, etc. Even your sentences sound like made by someone learing Polish.
Polonez, besides, is not a borrowing as far as I know.
What is 'skena'?


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## LilianaB

Jezdzi(czym) Polonezem. It is the verb that governs the case not whether something is a brand name. Polonez originally is a borrowing: Polonaise - it means Polish in French. It was used first as a name of a dance- a courtly dance similar to menuet, also Chopin composed  music in this form, and some other composers as well,  Oginsky, being one of them.


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## Thomas1

I reiteraite: kupić 'kogo? co?'. It's the 'kogo?' question that is used in case of brand names 'kupię forda', 'kupię nowego forda'. 'co?' isn't correct 'kupię ford', 'kupię nowy ford'. 'co?' is used with inanimate common nouns 'kupię samochód', 'kupię nowy samochód'.


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## LilianaB

Kupic Explorer, kupic Lincoln, kupic Doge, Kupic Mercury, nie Mercurego. I agree that, kupic Fiata, for some reason.

Kupic nowego Foda sounds OK, but kupic nowego Hammera sounds weird. Kupic nowy samochod Chrysler, or Ford Focus would be the best option. I want to say once again that a lot of it might be tradition and phonetics: the rules do not apply equally, in my opinion.


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## piyopiyo

So we can agree with Thomas' statemant that "brand names are treated as animate", answering the question "kogo".
Now the issue seems to be more wether foreign nouns are to be declined 
I heard sometimes those names are not declined, which doesn't mean that "Lincoln" would be nominative, just accusative but not declined according to polish nouns rules. Can you confirm this?

Sorry my polish is very pour I just tried to see if I understood 


Bruno


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## Thomas1

LilianaB said:


> Kupic Explorer, kupic Lincoln, kupic Doge, Kupic Mercury, nie Mercurego. I agree that, kupic Fiata, for some reason.
> 
> Kupic nowego Foda sounds OK, but kupic nowego Hammera sounds weird.  Kupic nowy samochod Chrysler, or Ford Focus would be the best option. I  want to say once again that a lot of it might be tradition and  phonetics: the rules do not apply equally, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> Dernière


Kupic Explorer, kupic Lincoln, kupic Doge, Kupic Mercury, nie Mercurego. I agree that, kupic Fiata, for some reason.

Kupic nowego Forda sounds OK, but kupic nowego Hummera sounds weird. Kupic nowy samochod Chrysler, or Ford Focus would be the best option. Here  you change it all because you use a common noun 'samochód', besides  it's not the first way we would pick to say this in Polish and we would most likely say 'samochód marki Chrysler'. I want to say once again that a lot of it might be tradition and phonetics: the rules do not apply equally, in my opinion.

All the examples of car brands are declinable.


piyopiyo said:


> So we can agree with Thomas' statemant that "brand names are treated as animate", answering the question "kogo".
> Now the issue seems to be more wether foreign nouns are to be declined
> I heard sometimes those names are not declined, which doesn't mean that "Lincoln" would be nominative, just accusative but not declined according to polish nouns rules. Can you confirm this?
> 
> Sorry my polish is very pour I just tried to see if I understood
> 
> 
> Bruno



I'll give you an entry for 'Lincoln', which should help you make up your mind:





> Lincoln (miasto w USA; miasto i hrabstwo w Wielkiej Brytanii) ndm
> Nowy słownik ortograficzny PWN c Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA
> Lincoln (marka samochodów i firma) -lna, -lnie
> Nowy słownik ortograficzny PWN c Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA
> lincoln (samochód marki Lincoln) -lna, -lnie; -lny, -lnów
> Nowy słownik ortograficzny PWN c Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA



Yes, it is true that certain foreign names remain undeclinable in Polish, but it's certainly not the case of car brands.


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## piyopiyo

Ok thank you! 

Bruno


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## arturolczykowski

Thomas1, dlaczego nie przekresliles tez "Explorer"? Przeciez tu tez powinno byc "Eksplorera"....


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## BezierCurve

Just my 2 cents... The only names you don't decline in this case are those names ending with -o ("kupić polo", "kupić toledo").


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## Thomas1

arturolczykowski said:


> Thomas1, dlaczego nie przekresliles tez "Explorer"? Przeciez tu tez powinno byc "Eksplorera"....


Bo mowa jest o nazwach samochodów. Ale może powinienem był to też zrobić.  
Co do pisowni to ja jednak zostałbym przy 'Explorera'. Porównaj też hasło PWN-u.


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## Thomas1

BezierCurve said:


> Just my 2 cents... The only names you don't decline in this case are those names ending with -o ("kupić polo", "kupić toledo").


This had crossed my mind too, but...
Na parkingu stoją cztery cinquecenta, dwa toleda i trzy polo(?)*.
You will hear that, no?
*here I'm fairly sure many people would say 'polówki'.


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## BezierCurve

True, so you don't decline them unless they're plural.


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## LilianaB

I do not agree with you Marco, but still, the new tendency in Poland is to decline as many things as possible, so I will not argue with you, since the learner wants to learn Polish from Poland from the beginning of the 21st century not Polish from New York. Whatever you are saying, but the people who live abroad and speak standard Polish from the times before the changes, have a tendency not to decline most of car brands in such constructions and other borrowings such as sken,, e-mail, etc.

Thomas, please kindly change your quote because it is not my quote, only part of it is mine. Post #14. Please edit the quote attributed to me, which is not totally mine.

By the way, would a sentence like: Minister kupil nowego Porscha, ktorym pojechal na konferncje europejska, be acceptable in newspaper writing. Kongresmenka kupila nowego Merkurego ktory zepsul jej sie po drodze do senatu.


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## LilianaB

Trzy Eksplorera czy Eksplorery? Cztery Merkury czy Merkurery?


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## majlo

What are you talking about misleading people again? Even long time ago people declined brands of cars!!! I can't even imagine anyone 20-30 years ago say, 'Kupiłem sobie nowego maluch'. 

It's _Trzy eskplorery_.

Merkury? God knows. It's first time I've heard it.

And it's, 'Kupił nowe Porsche'.


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## LilianaB

I am not misleading people: this was just referring to names of foreign cars. Malucha is malucha. Not all names of cars decline, this is the bottom line. Many people in this forum would claim that kupilem Poscha is correct. I think it should be Porsche. 
But as I said, many people decline fewer nouns, especially borrowings, than what is common in Poland these day, from what I can see by occasionally looking at forums. (fora- I know, but it sounds a little bit too posh)

One more thin: what do you think about: Kupilem nowego Porschego a wczesniej mialem Merkurego?


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## Thomas1

Liliana, I mean no disrespect or vilify you but what you've written is misleading. You didn't write anything about the Polish variation you were using. I can imagine Poles living a long time outside Poland not declining words. However, this will be immediately marked as wrong and as a sign of losing the grasp of Polish here in Poland and in other places where they pay attention to use decent Polish (unless, of course, someone uses such language for effect). Car brand names are declined and used in this way in publications of any sort.
What do you mean by 'sken'? This is not a word we use in Poland. Now that we know you rub elbows with American _Polonia_, I imagine they may be using this word.

Something interesting on the subject:





> NAZWY WŁASNE JAKO RZECZOWNIKI POSPOLITE We współczesnej polszczyźnie można wskazać dużo nazw własnych osobowych (imion postaci biblijnych i mitologicznych, imion i nazwisk postaci historycznych i bohaterów literackich), nazw miejscowych, nazw firmowych, nazw wyrobów przemysłowych, w których dokonały się przesunięcia znaczeniowe pozwalające ich używać jako rzeczowników pospolitych.
> [..]
> Omawiane nazwy mogą przysparzać kłopotów poprawnościowych dotyczących odmiany, zwłaszcza form _B.lp_ rodzaju męskiego (czy ma on być równy mianownikowi – na wzór rzeczowników nieżywotnych, czy też dopełniaczowi – jak rzeczowników żywotnych oraz _M.lm_ (męskoosobowego czy niemęskoosobowego).
> Wybór zależy w dużym stopniu od typu desygnatu – jeżeli są to nazwy osób, wybieramy w _B.lp_ końcówki żywotne, np. _Widzę jakiegoś goliata_; _Znam tego judasza_; _Poproś tu naszego herkulesa_; a w _M.lm_ – końcówki męskoosobowe, np. _Przyszli obaj nestorzy_, _To nasi donkiszoci_. Użycie końcówek niemęskoosobowych byłoby znakiem ujemnego nacechowania ekspresywnego, np. _te donżuany_, _herkulesy_, _lowelasy_, przy czym wybór takiej formy wyznaczałby automatycznie postać gramatyczną określeń i orzeczeń (_naiwne donkiszoty_, _katony nie dopuściły_...).
> Tradycyjne rzeczowniki, będące nazwami przedmiotów, pochodzącymi od nazw własnych, mają w _B.lp_ formę nieżywotną, np. _kupić browning_, ale w najnowszej polszczyźnie zauważa się bardzo silną tendencję do używania biernika w formie dopełniaczowej; szczególnie wyraźnie zwyczaj ten obejmuje nazwy pochodne od nazw firmowych, tzn. nazwy wyrobów przemysłowych, np. _sprawić sobie parkera_, _odbezpieczyć kolta_, _kupić kałasznikowa_, _wyprowadzić peugeota z garażu_. Taka odmiana kontynuuje zwyczaj utrwalony od dawna w języku polskim, polegający na posługiwaniu się dopełniaczowymi formami biernika rodzaju męskiego m.in. w nazwach tańców, jednostek monetarnych (niekiedy pochodzących od nazw własnych, np. _tańczyć mazura_, _płacić napoleona_), jest więc w pełni poprawna. Konsekwencją tego zwyczaju jest znaczne zmniejszenie liczby form fleksyjnych tożsamych z formą mianownika, co sprzyja wyrazistości funkcjonalnej (składniowej) konstrukcji w bierniku. (H.J.)
> _Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN_ © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA





> One more thin: what do you think about: Kupilem nowego Porschego a wczesniej mialem Merkurego?


Kupiłem nowe porsche, a wcześniej miałem mercury'ego. 
'Porshe' is neutral. 
Note that 'Mercury' is hardly known in Poland, so people might simply say 'forda mercury' or not decline it in common parlance (at the beginning of using the name). I know the make, because someone in my family has had one.


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## LilianaB

People who live in other countries and speak Polish on a native level speak descent Polish as well. There are Slavic Departments at American and other universities or colleges and many journalists from Polad live abroad. People publish in Polish, so to say that undeclined words such as Mercury, PRL, ZSSR or sken are wrong is a big mistake. People abroad may just speak a slighly different Polish. Jesli chodzi o sken, to sa teraz takie formy: nie dostalem skenu, przysle meila, itp, which I personally cannot stand. I am not trying to convince anybody to speak the way people abroad do: I stated it clearly that Polish has changed significantly over the last twenty, thirty years. As to the brands: there are no clear-cut rules. If a brand of a car is unknown it may behave differently than other cars. this was basically what I was trying to say: there are no 100% rules so it is better to learn each brand separately. Royce Royce 
will be Royce Royca and Bentley?  Betliego? Stoja dwa Benley na parkingu kolo kiosku. Staja dwa Bentleya, dwa Bentleye? Dwa samochody Bentley.  Stoja dwa Mitsubishi. Kupie Royce Royce, Stoja dwa Royce Roycy?


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## arturolczykowski

Originally Posted by *arturolczykowski* 





> Thomas1, dlaczego nie przekresliles tez "Explorer"? Przeciez tu tez powinno byc "Eksplorera"....





> Bo mowa jest o nazwach samochodów. Ale może powinienem był to też zrobić.



Sila propagandy Microsoftu  Explorer to gatun forda.......


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## LilianaB

Would would you say: Kupilem nowego Forda Explorera, kupilem nowego Forda Fokusa, czy Forda Fokus, Tojote Karole, czy Tojote Karola? Kupilem nowgo Dzipa Wrangler, czy Wranglera? I think it is better to ride a horse, after all.


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## dn88

LilianaB said:


> Would would you say: Kupilem nowego Forda Explorera, kupilem nowego Forda Fokusa, czy Forda Fokus, Tojote Karole, czy Tojote Karola? Kupilem nowgo Dzipa Wrangler, czy Wranglera? I think it is better to ride a horse, after all.



I would say and write: kupiłem nowego Forda Explorera/Focusa, kupiłem nową Toyotę Corollę, kupiłem nowego Jeepa Wranglera.


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## LilianaB

Then, if I really had to say kupilam nowego Dzipa Wranglera I would buy a horse. Kupilam konia, no problem. What if I wanted to say: kupilam nowego czerwonego Dzipa Wranglera. Does it sound like anything? I don't know, sounds a little weird to me.


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## dn88

LilianaB said:


> Then, if I really had to say kupilam nowego Dzipa Wranglera I would buy a horse. Kupilam konia, no problem. What if I wanted to say: kupilam nowego czerwonego Dzipa Wranglera. Does it sound like anything? I don't know, sounds a little weird to me.



I would not use the Polish spelling when referring to the actual car brand "Jeep", so for me it is "kupiłem nowego (czerwonego) Jeepa Wranglera". The word "dżip" or "jeep" for that matter (no capital letter) is used to refer to any car that physically resembles those originally manufactured by "Jeep", whether it be "Nissan" or something else.


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## Thomas1

LilianaB said:


> People who live in other countries and speak Polish on a native level speak descent Polish as well. There are Slavic Departments at American and other universities or colleges and many journalists from Polad live abroad. People publish in Polish, so to say that undeclined words such as Mercury, PRL, ZSSR or sken are wrong is a big mistake.


Firstly, this is not what I have said and please let's keep up to the car names. All the names of car makes in post #6 and all except one in #12 are declinable. This is a general tendency and it is applied consequently in writing and speech by Polish speakers in Poland and not only there. I can see some exceptions to this, these are usually names that have uncommon ending to Polish, one is 'porshe', which has by the way the declinable option if you look it up in a dictionary, the other is 'mercury', which is very infrequent in Polish, but which I would consider the same as the former due to the popularity of Freddie Mercury, whose name can be declined. Mitsubisi is undeclinable. No wonder, it is a Japanese name.
Secondly, I have great difficulty believing that this is the case at universities in other countries. In one of my previous posts, I asked you for some sources presenting the samples given, I received nothing. I also asked for a definition of the word 'sken', but I also received nothing. You in return received opinon of Polish natives on this, who so far have agreed that car makes are declinable, an excerpt from an authoritative source on the Polish language, which confirms what Polish natives say:


> w najnowszej polszczyźnie zauważa się bardzo silną tendencję do *używania  biernika w formie dopełniaczowej*; szczególnie wyraźnie zwyczaj ten  obejmuje *nazwy pochodne od nazw firmowych*, tzn. nazwy wyrobów  przemysłowych, np. _sprawić sobie parkera_, _odbezpieczyć kolta_, _kupić kałasznikowa_, *wyprowadzić peugeota z garażu*.  Taka odmiana kontynuuje *zwyczaj utrwalony od dawna* w języku polskim,  polegający na posługiwaniu się dopełniaczowymi formami biernika rodzaju  męskiego m.in. w nazwach tańców, jednostek monetarnych (niekiedy  pochodzących od nazw własnych, np. _tańczyć mazura_, _płacić napoleona_),  jest więc *w pełni poprawna*. [...]
> _Nowy słownik poprawnej polszczyzny PWN_ © Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN SA
> [My bold face]


Finally, I have just browsed the oldest dictionary of a relatively Modern Polish I've got access to (by Doroszewski published between 1960's and 1970's), it doesn't contain all the car names of course, but it has for instance: jeep and fiat. They are declinable. The dictionary also confirms what I quoted in the previous paragraf.
So, taking into account the lack of any reliable sources confirming this  alleged situation and the fact that linguistic departments are usually  accoutred with sources on the language they teach from the countries  where this language comes from, I find the whole situation either not  true or simply quite unlikely. Why would anyone deviate from something that has been confirmed by a long tradition and, what's more important, is still in use?


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## LilianaB

My feeling is that people decline car brands the way they want. I will stick to my theory that the choices are based more on conventional use and phonetics, not any strict grammatical rules. Some brands decline whereas other brands do not. What about makes? I see there are a lot of makes confused with brands. I did it myself referring to Ford Explorer. Freddie Mercury has nothing to do with Ford Mercury, neither does the declension of the make. Do you realize that Mercedes is really a woman's name?


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## arturolczykowski

> I see there are a lot of makes confused with brands.



How can you confuse make with brand? Make=brand. You can confuse make/brand with model only and yes, we realize that Mercedes is a female name....


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## LilianaB

Yes, you are right I meant make with model: how do you decline models with brands or makes, or without? As to _we_ _know_: you do not really know what other people know.


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## majlo

You're impossible hehe. Not one, not two, not three native speakers tell you that car brands are declinable and you still know better. Unbelievable. It getting more and more pointless to even discuss anything with you. 

I am absolutely convinced that very many people know that Mercedes is a female name.


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## LilianaB

Don't have this arrogant attitude about being a native speaker. You know my Polish is native level. What do you mean by a native speaker at all. A mountain dweller from Tatra Mountains surrounded by his lambs, a coal-miner from upper Silesia or a Slavist from a prestigious university, or any Polish-speaking person with liberal arts education and some other language lovers?


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## majlo

LilianaB said:


> You know my Polish is native level.


No, it isn't. You just proved it here.


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## LilianaB

You could prove your Polish is at a native level. So far I have heard a lot about _ogarnąc_ in any context. It is not required to prove anything here in fact.


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## arturolczykowski

Sorry LilanaB but I do not think any native would ever said: Kupic Explorer, kupic Lincoln, kupic Doge.... believe me.


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## LilianaB

What do you mean by native: please define. Kupic Explorer. No problem. 99% of people who speak Polish in the US, for example, would say it.


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## majlo

That really takes a lot of braggadocio to claim to know what 99% of people who speak Polish in the US would say in this context.

If you don't know who a native speaker is, then all the more it is no use discussing it with you.


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## LilianaB

So, please tell me who a native speaker is. Ask the_ baca_ from Zakopane whether he would be buying Explorer or Explorera. If you ask the coal miner, if there are any still left, he would most likely tell you; kupia sie kara.


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:


> 99% of people who speak Polish in the US, for example, would say it.



If that's the case, and I don't really think it is, tell them that their Polish is in decline!


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## arturolczykowski

> No problem. 99% of people who speak Polish in the US, for example, would say it.



It says me that they probably stay there too long....


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## majlo

It's not even possible to know 99% of people who speak Polish in the US. Liliana is simply blatantly lying. 

I won't define 'a native speaker', but I will this one instead.


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## arturolczykowski

I've been living a few years in the UK and can see the same tendency in my Polish Liliana but at least I fight with it....


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## LilianaB

I do not have nay tendencies in my Polish. I speak Polish the way I always spoke it. I have been in the United States for most of my life. Why do I have to fight with something that is correct and I like better than the new version of Polish that is prevalent in Poland now?


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## arturolczykowski

> Why do I have to fight with something that is correct and I like better than the new version of Polish that is prevalent in Poland now?



You're just unbearable.... No, it's not correct.


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## LilianaB

Good. It is correct where i live and it is correct according to the language rules taught 30 years ago. You can look at American sites in Polish: Kupie Explorer, sprzedam Jeep Wrangler. Natomiast czesci dla Eksplorera. Please do not tell me how to speak. I don't even know anything about the quality of your Polish because you usually do not write in Polish on this forum. Nothing personal.


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## Ben Jamin

kirahvi said:


> Genitive is always used with names of car brands. The same goes for cigarettes and dances (tańczyć walca/poloneza ALE tańczyć tango) etc. I think there's a similar rule to some brands of chocolates too, but I'm not sure.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm not a native speaker and I've only ever taken Polish classes for 2 weeks, so it might be best to wait for a second opinion.



In both sentences:
On chce kupic nowy samochód
On chce kupic nowego forda
the case is actually *accusative*.
Polish masculine nouns are subdivided into three (sub)genders:
1. Personal: accusative: nowego człowieka
2. Impersonal animate: accusative: nowego psa
3. Impersonal inanimate: accusative: nowy samochód.
The explanation of the usage “nowego forda” is that car brands use the declension pattern of personal nouns. Why? Perhaps because car brand names (especially in older times) often had surnames as brand names (Lamborghini, Bugatti, Ford, Peugeot, Citroën, Opel, and so on). It was then extended to other car names that sounded like surnames (Landrover). In case of cars that have an indeclinable name, there is a free choice: kupiłem “nowe Mitsubishi” or “nowego Mitsubishi” (the second version is rather substandard), even if Mitsubishi is actually a surname. Most people will, however, say: kupiłem “nowe Mini” (from Mini Cooper).


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> Good. It is correct where i live and it is correct according to the language rule taught 30 years ago. You can look at *American sites in Polish*: Kupie Explorer, sprzedam Jeep Wrangler. Natomiast czesci dla Eksplorera. Please do not tell me how to speak. I don't even know anything about the quality of your Polish because you usually do not write in Polish on this forum. Nothing personal.




LilianaB, please stop giving advice on the Polish language. Your citing of "American sites in Polish" as credible, authoritative sources on the Polish language (as opposed to PWN and Doroszewski) is not only laughable, but further validates the ridiculousness of your arguments. 

In a previous post you attempted declining Porsche like a masculine adjective (when it is in fact a neuter noun). You invent words like "sken" and make false statements like "Polish has changed in recent years" and "the new tendency in Poland is to decline as many things as possible" that are not only incorrect, but also frustratingly misleading to those trying to learn Polish.

I've lived in Canada for nearly 30 years and am familiar with the way Polonia is capable of massacring the Polish language. Just because a majority of Poles in America (as you claim) speak a certain way DOES NOT MAKE IT CORRECT. Next you're going to tell us that a statement like _"Garbidż (garbage) z bejsmentu (basement) leży na bakjardzie (backyard)" _is perfecly good Polish since some of Polonia speak that way.

If you don't want people to "tell you how to speak" then speak correctly and don't give erroneous advice on a language forum, and then argue nonsensically with everyone that tells you that you are wrong!!!


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## LilianaB

Write something in Polish, then I will talk to you more. Half of what you said is not true, and at the same time you are being very rude. As for your sources, are they all from the communist times: I have a tendency not to trust those sources 100%, they were often prepared by government sponsored scientists, some of whom would write whatever pleased the sponsors. I have no way of knowing how Polonia talks, or even what you mean by Polonia, they are usually people, second generation Poles,I think, and I do not know anything about them, or very little. I know how certain Polish journalists talk, doctors, lawyers and diplomats. I am not giving anybody advise how to talk. Polish has changed, maybe you just have not noticed it. I will always say: kupie Ford Exoplorer even if the whole Warsaw said Forda Explorera. Thank you.

People don't say: wysle ci skena, dostalem maila? So I don't know in which world you are living, or you have no contact with contemporary Polish.


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## dreamlike

You will not talk any sense into Liliana's mind about Polish language - she simply knows better. I given up all hope of having a normal discussion with her. Who do you think you are, Liliana, to judge other's people grasp of Polish. You are not at liberty to do it. That's pretensious, snobbish conduct. Why do we have to put up with it?

It's *skan* not *sken* - the latter doesn't exist in Polish.



			
				Liliana said:
			
		

> I will always say: kupie Ford Exoplorer even if the whole Warsaw said Forda Explorera.




What a way to carry-on! Then you are not speaking Polish as we know it.


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## LilianaB

I do not want to do it on the forum, but I am forced to: your English is much better than your Polish Dreamlike. I do not find your Polish idiomatic, maybe you read and write mostly in English. As to skan and sken: skan is even worse. Wyslalem ci skana, maybe a scalp, or something like that. It just reminds me of a scalp.


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## arturolczykowski

> I don't even know anything about the quality of your Polish because you usually do not write in Polish on this forum. Nothing personal.







Droga Iliano, mogę Cię zapewnić, że mój polski ma się całkiem dobrze. Założyłem, może niesłusznie, że łatwiej Ci pisać po angielsku, skoro żadna z Twoich wypowiedzi, oprócz kilku pojedynczych wyrażeń, nie była po polsku. Dziwi mnie też Twoja uwaga o tym, że nie piszę w swoim ojczystym języku, skoro sama nie piszesz po polsku - przynajmniej w tym wątku. Sprawdza się tu nasze stare polskie przysłowie: "przyganiał kocioł garnkowi". Proszę Cię więc, abyś od tej chwili odpowiadała mi po polsku, abym mógł poznać "the quality of your Polish"


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## LilianaB

Po pierwsze mam na imie Liliana, a nie Iliana, po drugie nie przypominam sobie abysmy przechodzili na Ty. Po trzecie nie musze pisac po polsku, bo jezykiem ktorym sie glownie posluguje jest angielskim i inne jezyki, ktorymi czesciej sie posluguje niz polskim. Nie umie  pisac w ogole ze znakami diakrytycznymi, gdzyz nigdy nie pisalam na maszynie po polsku, moze jakies male rzeczy, inne zawsze pisalm bez diakritics i jest to dla mnie meczarnia. Nie bede pisac na forum caly czas bez znakow diakrytycznych, ani tez nie bede sie tortutowac pisaniem z nimi. Nic sie nie stalo, nie obrazam sie o forme w ktorej Pan napisal, ale nie mam zamiaru na dluzsza mete pisac po polsku bo nie umie pisac ze znakami diakrytycznymi, a bez nich jest to pewnego rodzaju ignorancja otoczenia. Pozdrawiam.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> Write something in Polish, then I will talk to you more.



Why would I write in Polish? This thread was started in English and I'm replying to your post which was also in English. Plus I CORRECTED YOUR POLISH (ie. Porsche is not a masculine adjective, "sken" is not a word).



LilianaB said:


> Half of what you said is not true, and at the same time you are being very rude.



Which half?



LilianaB said:


> As for your sources, are they all from the communist times: I have a tendency not to trust those sources 100%, they were often prepared by government sponsored scientists, some of whom would write whatever pleased the sponsors.



Have you heard of Witold Doroszewski or Państwowe Wydawnictwo Naukowe? Here is their website: http://www.pwn.pl/ and Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Scientific_Publishers_PWN
It's amazing that these "communists" continue to operate a website with hundreds of updated dictionaries, encyclopedias and linguist books. 

You're correct. We shouldn't trust THE authoritative figure on the Polish language. Your American websites are a more reliable source.



LilianaB said:


> *I have no way of knowing how Polonia talks, or even what you mean by Polonia*, they are usually people, second generation Poles,I think, and I do not know anything about them, or very little. I know how certain Polish journalists talk, doctors, lawyers and diplomats. I am not giving anybody advise how to talk.



Now I think you're just being silly. You said yourself that you "have been in the United States for most of [your] life." If you don't know what Polonia means, then I don't know who you've been speaking Polish with during the majority of your life.



LilianaB said:


> Polish has changed, maybe you just have not noticed it. I will always say: kupie Ford Exoplorer even if the whole Warsaw said Forda Explorera. Thank you.


Thanks. Every language evolves. No one is disputing that. You can say what you want, but I, backed by PWN and other Polish linguists, will say that you are wrong. 



LilianaB said:


> People don't say: wysle ci skena, dostalem maila? So I don't know in which world you are living, or you have no contact with contemporary Polish.


No. "Skena" is not a word. Neither is "sken." What are you trying to say? What's the English translation? I believe you're trying to say fax???


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## myfakename

LilianaB said:


> nie przypominam sobie abysmy przechodzili na Ty.


Na forach internetowych (nieważne czy polskich, holenderskich, hiszpańskich czy niemieckich) jest powszechny zwyczaj zwracania się do siebie na ty.



> Po trzecie nie musze pisac po polsku, bo jezykiem ktorym sie glownie posluguje jest *angielski* i inne jezyki, ktorymi czesciej sie posluguje niz polskim. Nie *umiem*  pisac w ogole ze znakami diakrytycznymi, *gdyż* nigdy nie pisalam na maszynie po polsku, moze jakies male rzeczy, inne zawsze pisalm bez diakritics i jest to dla mnie meczarnia.


Słowo diakritics nie istnieje w języku polskim. Masz postawę jakbyś była bogiem polskiego, a nawet nie umiesz pisać w tym języku (co zresztą sama przyznajesz używając "umie" jako formy pierwszej osoby czasu teraźniejszego). Coraz lepiej. Nie, nie jestem złośliwy, twoja postawa "I know it all" powoduje, że ktoś po prostu musi sprowadzić cię na ziemię. Wymagasz od innych, a od samej siebie nie dajesz nic, tylko wprowadzasz w błąd ludzi którzy chcą się czegoś na tym forum nauczyć. To, co napisałaś wyżej o odmianach nazw samochodów dyskwalifikuje cię jako native speakera, nie mówiąc już o dalszym wykłócaniu się po podaniu kilku(nastu?) źródeł, mówiących jasno że *jesteś w błędzie*. Ludzie tak nie mówią, kropka. 

Trochę pokory człowieku, ta cecha naprawdę przydaje się w życiu! Jak zrobisz błąd, ktoś to zauważy, negagowanie tego i wykłócanie się powoduje dokładnie taki efekt, jak wydaje ci się że powoduje zrobienie błędu (na co 99% ludzi reaguje jak na coś normalnego bo *to jest normalne*, nikt nie jest nieomylny). Przerabiałem to dobrych pare lat temu. Psycholog pomógł.



> Nic sie nie stalo, nie obrazam sie o forme w ktorej Pan napisal, ale nie mam zamiaru na dluzsza mete pisac po polsku bo nie *umiem* pisac ze znakami diakrytycznymi, a bez nich jest to pewnego rodzaju ignorancja otoczenia. Pozdrawiam.



 Nieodpowiadanie na połowę rzeczy w temacie nie jest ignorancją? Pamiętam jeszcze, jak jakiś czas temu pisałaś że "jakość twojego polskiego jest na poziomie Miłosza" czy innego sławnego poety. Po tym poście (tej wiadomości na forum internetowym - dopisane specjalnie żeby nie było czepiania się o niezrozumiałe słowo) pozostaje tylko... załamać ręce na takie przecenianie swoich umiejętności. 

Tak, wiem że mój polski, szczególnie jeśli chodzi o stawianie przecinków, nie jest idealny. Przepraszam, że nie jestem Miłoszem (tylko Piotrem ).


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## Thomas1

LilianaB said:


> Good. It is correct where i live and it is correct according to the language rules taught 30 years ago. You can look at American sites in Polish: Kupie Explorer, sprzedam Jeep Wrangler. [...]



I’ve been wondering all day if we could use undeclined car name naturally. I’ve come to the conclusion that there is a specific situation where undeclined names, not only of cars, often pop up.*
*



> *Sprzedam Ford Focus 1,8 TDDI Hatchback 2000 rok*
> 
> *Temat: Sprzedam Ford Focus 1,8 TDDI Hatchback 2000 rok*
> 
> Witam
> 
> Mam do sprzedania Forda Focusa 1,8 TDDI, wersja Hatchback
> 
> Auto posiada:
> Klimatyzacja
> El szyby
> ABS
> 2XAir Bag
> Wspomaganie
> Multimedialna kierownica
> Orginalne radio ford
> 2 kpl opon zima (jeden sezon)+ lato
> Alufelgi
> Kolor-Granatowy metalik
> 
> Source: http://www.goldenline.pl/forum/2756286/sprzedam-ford-focus-1-8-tddi-hatchback-2000-rok


If you mean this sort of adverts, you are right they exist and are widely used in Poland too. However, they don’t use normal Polish and they are surely not a representative sample of it. 
Very often adverts are writen in different Polish. Here the word ‘sprzedam’ is used as a name of the category, the other being ‘kupię’. After the word ‘sprzedam’ you’ve got ‘Ford Focus’ (undeclined), which is the name of another category, other could be ‘Ford Mondeo’, ‘Ford Puma’, etc. All this is done in any kind of ads for practical purposes, for instance, brevity and clarity.
As you can see the first sentence of the advert uses the declined name of the car (make and model). This is how we really use car names in Polish. Then you have another list, again the things mentioned are undeclined for the same purposes as they aren’t in the introductory part. This is done in ads for anything, e.g.





> *Sprzedam*
> 
> (51974)
> 
> 
> bilety
> agd / wyposażenie domu
> antyki / biżuteria / kolekcje
> odzież / obuwie / akcesoria
> wszystko dla dziecka
> komputery / akcesoria / software
> telefony / akcesoria
> rtv / tv / wizja / foto
> sprzęt audio / muzyka / hi-fi
> instrumenty muzyczne
> gry video / konsole
> gry / książki
> cd / dvd / filmy
> sport / rekreacja
> narzędzia
> sprzedam inne


 
We don’t speak this type of Polish. Anyone who grew up in Poland even with the basic education will automatically, i.e. unconsciously, detect it, but won’t use it outside the context of this type of advertising. Surely you can carry on using undeclined car names, you know what's best for you, but kindly don’t do it on forums especially in answers to those who learn Polish, as it isn’t standard and Polish students will surely be frowned upon at the very least if they start doing the same.


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## LilianaB

Myfakename. You are just blantly rude like your screen name, and I would not advise anyone to follow the way you write in Polish, because it is just not a good Polish. No one on any serious Polish fora addresses a person by Ty, only rude people or teenagers on shady sites. Please remove your or  post or correct all the forms. It is just an expression of pure chamstwo, so to speak, and has no place on a linguistic forum. Nie umie pisze sie tak jak napisalam tylko ze znakiem diakrytycznym i tak one i bylo napisane, wymawia sie nie umiem.


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## majlo

Myfakename's Polish is much better than yours, Liliana. And yes, I absolutely agree that there is a tendency on internet forums to to address people as 'ty' in Polish. Red flag for you again for misleading potential learners. Naughty. And I believe you should look up the difference between "(blatantly) rude" and "firm".


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> I do not want to do it on the forum, but I am forced to: your English is much better than your Polish Dreamlike. I do not find your Polish idiomatic, maybe you read and write mostly in English. As to skan and sken: skan is even worse. Wyslalem ci skana, maybe a scalp, or something like that. It just reminds me of a scalp.




I received numerous praises on my grasp of Polish, and they came from people whose Polish is impeccable, as opossed to yours. So, excuse me being blunt, but I couldn't care less about your opinion.  




			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> Nie umie pisze sie tak jak napisalam tylko ze znakiem diakrytycznym i tak one i bylo napisane, wymawia sie nie umiem




"Nie umię" used in first person is one of the most glaring mistakes one can make in Polish language. It's simply wrong. It should be "Nie umie*m*."


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## LilianaB

I don't care about tendencies: it is simply rude and not allowed, only if they person lets you to refer to them by Ty. Look at some newspaper fora in Poland. I usually do not write on any Polish fora, but I read some newspapers from time to time and read some interesting threads on their discussion fora. No one addresses people he or she is not familiar with by Ty. You have to ask the person, unless it is a teenagers' forum and this is just allowed.


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## LilianaB

Ok, Dreamlike, maybe you just write in a sloppy way on this forum sometimes, when you are immersed in English. This is what I do. When I read too much in another language another language in which I write becomes more cumbersome.


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## majlo

Just as no, I believe, Polish native speaker here cares about the yarns you spin about Polish, which of course doesn't mean you won't be corrected.


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## LilianaB

I though this forum was not for native speakers so much than for people who wanted to learn correct Polish, other than the vulgarisms that often appear on this particular forum.


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## dreamlike

Rozzuchwaliła się Pani niebotycznie, Pani Liliano. Wciela się Pani na tym forum w rolę wyroczni językowej, podczas gdy Pani umiejętność posługiwania się językiem polskim pozostawia wiele do życzenia, delikatnie rzecz ujmując. Zrazu nieśmiałe, choć bardzo irytujące i, co najważniejsze, błędne uwagi językowe, które Pani czyniła stają się co raz bardziej bezczelne z każdym kolejnym Pani postem. Na domiar złego, wszystkie Pani wypowiedzi podszyte są postawą besserwissera, co wzmaga niechęć dyskusji z Panią. Nigdy nie miałem wątpliwej przyjemności spotkać na forum internetowym osoby tak przekonanej o swojej nieomylności, i apodyktycznej w swoich sądach. Tego posta napisałem w swoim rodzimym języku by dowieść, że Pani uwagi o mojej znajomości języka polskiego są chybione i nieuprawnione. Pozdrawiam.


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## arturolczykowski

> Nie umie pisze sie tak jak napisalam tylko ze znakiem diakrytycznym i tak one i bylo napisane, wymawia sie nie umiem.



umieM, oneO [to słowo]....

I do not like telling people such things, but you're just delusional about your grasp of Polish.... it's still at good level though, but definitely not at native-like one.


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## majlo

These forums, I believe, are for everybody. Including those who correct people who preach on Polish not having the faintest idea about it.

Why are you lying so blatantly? Swear words, which are _nota bene_ also part of a language, do not _often_ appear on this forum!!!


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## LilianaB

Z razu, zrazu, od razu, czy zrazy, w sosie. Please teach me how to spell this word if my Polish is really so low. Napisalem tego, posta, o wlasnie. Wiem ze to jest teraz poprawny sposob wyrazania sie ale to jest wlasnie to o czym mowilam, ze wiele slow obcego pochodzenia sie obecnie odmienia co na niektorych ludzi dziala jak na byka czerwona plachta, co tym samym jednak nie znaczy ze ktos mieszkajacy w Polsce ma mowic lub pisac inaczej. Good luck, Dreamlike


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## LilianaB

I agree with you Majlo, swear words are important on fora to the extent that people learn their meaning and usage so they can be aware what they mean or even how to use them if they wanted to use some of them, but not if they take up 90% of a particular forum's space.


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## piyopiyo

Hello,
i think this discussion has become quite pointless..  I really respect Liliana's deep knowledge of Polish, but not her claim that how it evolved outside Poland is the correct Polish.. I think it's really interesting to know how a language changes outside it's original country, but it cannot be considered to make rules, I guess.. so why go on discussing? 

Sorry for the intrusion..

Bruno


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## dreamlike

I remember you claiming that you're familiar with poetic Polish, so my using the word "Zrazu" should come as no surprise to you. The correct spelling is *Zrazu*, just the way I used it.


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## majlo

You're delusional not only about your grasp of Polish, but also about the contents of the Polish forum.  I think swear words do not even constitute 9% of the forum space, let alone 90%.


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## LilianaB

Yes, you are right Piyopiyo. I learned Polish at the age of 40, which is about now two hours a week in a Brooklyn basement. The teacher was half Chinese.  Just kidding. Good luck. I agree the subject is not worth discussing. It is not whatever you wrote, but anyhow. Learn Polish they way the people from Poland teach you. Good luck


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## LilianaB

You have to count them, Majlo. Just create a ratio; the percentage of swear words in Polish versus the percentage of swear words on this forum.


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## piyopiyo

Come on that's not what I said, I'm sure your Polish is great (I cannot judge, I'm just learning right now) but I understand languages evolve sometimes in different ways outside their countries.. it happens for Italian too, but rules will still be written in Italy. Your Polish can be native level, I'm not discussing this.

Bruno


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## myfakename

LilianaB said:


> Myfakename. You are just blantly rude like your screen name,


"Myfakename", a nie "f**k my name". Nie ma w tym nic niestosownego ani niegrzecznego, po prostu totalny brak pomysłu na nick. I to ty mieszkasz w NY a ja nigdy nie byłem za granicą? Nie napiszę, że czuję się jakby było odwrotnie tylko dlatego, że uczę się British English.



> and I would not advise anyone to follow the way you write in Polish, because it is just not a good Polish.


Twoje prawo, choć nie podałaś ani jednego przykładu. Poza oczywistymi przecinkami, o których wiem od dawna, i o których sam napisałem w poprzedniej wiadomości. A prawo innych jest takie, aby cię nie słuchać. Wszystko mi mówi, że to drugie będzie stosowane o wiele częściej  Ale co ja tam mogę wiedzieć.

Na resztę nie odpowiem, bo po co mam powtarzać to co ludzie wyżej napisali. Ciągle uciekasz, na większość rzeczy nie odpowiadasz, to ma być dyskusja? To bardziej user X 100 zdań vs. Liliana 5 zdań, z czego połowa zdania na temat, w 99% nie poparta żadnymi źródłami. Chociaż mówią, że "trolling is an art". Dla osób trzecich to musi być niezła komedia.

 Załóż sobie własne forum, mianuj administratorami i moderatorami znajomych z "en łaja" i rozkoszujcie się poziomem waszego American Polish, a ludzi tutaj najlepiej zostaw w spokoju. Bez obrazy dla ludzi na emigracji oczywiście, wiadomo o co chodzi. Po prostu siejesz zamęt, nawet (a szczególnie) po udowodnieniu, że twój post ma błędy. Jeszcze raz zachęcam do refleksji nad własnym zachowaniem. Na następną twoją wiadomość nie będę już odpisywać, bo offtopic osiągnął już gigantyczne rozmiary.

 Sorry Bruno, couldn't resist to reply. As I've written, I'm not going to post offtopic messages here anymore.



LilianaB said:


> I don't mind your  punctuation, I never even wrote anything about it, it must have been your imagination like my claims that I know everything.



 Wiem że nie wspomniałaś o niej, napisałem tylko że moja słaba interpunkcja jest dość oczywista. Sam o niej pisałem.


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## LilianaB

Good, Myfackiname( it is even hard for me to call you this way). All is fine: I don't mind your  punctuation, I never even wrote anything about it, it must have been your imagination like my claims that I know everything. I rarely make any comments about Polish usage, maybe when things start becoming too vulgar, or just like with the brands of cars, which in my opinion have individual treatment, some decline, other brands don't. I did not advise anybody to use the names in an undeclined form, but I prefer some of them undeclined. As to referring to grown-ups in the Ty form it is kind of impolite, but never mind. I just would not advise to do it while addressing some other grown-ups who are not used to teenagers' fora.  Sprzedam nowego czerwonego Forda Explorera czy sprzedam nowy Ford Explorer, this might be the question.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> Myfakename. You are just blantly rude like your screen name, and I would not advise anyone to follow the way you write in Polish, because it is just not a good Polish.


No one is being rude to you. Everyone on this forum is just telling you that your Polish is not as good as you profess it to be. Myfakename's (just like Dreamlike and Majlo's) Polish is perfectly fine, very good in fact, much better than yours. Why are you telling people to not follow his advice? It is your Polish that is highly suspect and misleading to learners.



LilianaB said:


> No one on any serious Polish fora addresses a person by Ty, only rude people or teenagers on shady sites.


Again, these are further lies you are spreading. Forums are an informal setting, not only in Polish, but also in English, French, German, other languages also. Maybe it's different in Lithuanian...



LilianaB said:


> It is just an expression of pure chamstwo, so to speak, and has no place on a linguistic forum. *Nie umie pisze sie tak jak napisalam tylko ze znakiem diakrytycznym i tak one i bylo napisane, wymawia sie nie umiem*.


Someone already commented on this, but it bears repeating. Anyone who does not know how to spell the most basic of Polish verbs CANNOT claim to have a firm grasp of the language and simply will not be taken seriously by anyone on this forum. Not to mention the glaring mistake of mixing up _one_ with _ono_. 

And for the record if _umiem_ were spelled with an -_ę_ (like *_umię_) then it definitely would NOT be pronounced *_umiem _with a -_m_ sound. Since when is -_ę_ at the end of 1st person singular present tense verbs pronounced like -_m_????? Do you say _ja *widzem, ja *idem, ja *biorem, ja *chodzem, ja *pijem???

_You're confusing irregular verbs that actually end with an _-em_ (where the _-m_ IS pronounced) like_ jestem, jem, wiem, rozumiem, _with those verbs that end in _-ę_ in the present tense first person singular like _jadę, piorę, kupuję, maluję_,_ muszę, _where there should NOT be an _-m_ sound.


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## LilianaB

You would be really a great asset in Salem, thank God this story is over. No more comments. I say everything the way it is supposed to be said in media quality Polish.  I do not write that much, in Polish this is true, and I may misspell something from time to time. By by...


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