# Urdu/Hindi: Izafat



## albondiga

Hi all,

What does the Urdu "e" (when used as in Mughal-*e*-azam, etc.) correspond to in Hindi?


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## francois_auffret

It doesn't translate in Hindi:
This e is called Izâfâ (in Persian, pronounce: Ezofê), it is used in two instances, 

Fists to mark the possessive, as in *Jân-e man*... Which proper Urdu / Hindi translation would be *meri jân*... (man in this expression is not the hindi 'man' but the Persian for me), in this instance then, *e* can be translated in Hindi by *ka, ke, kî* but notice that words are the other way round in both languages.

Secondly, it is used after a noun and before the adjective qualifying it... (Remember that it's once more there is a difference in word order between the Indian and the Persian systems): Mughal-e-a'zam... (=BaRâ Mughal... Akh, doesn't sound good)  The Great Mughal...
What's nice with Urdu, it's that it uses both systems together...


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## panjabigator

It's really just reserved for poetry and some stock phrases in Hindi/Urdu nowadays.  For example, the death penalty is /saza e maut/.

It's a nifty construction from Persian and I wish we saw it some more.


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## albondiga

Aha, much clearer now... thanks!


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## BP.

panjabigator, its not reserved for poetry and archaic phrases, its pretty current.

Thinking an example off the top of my head: 'abhi ibtida-e-kaam hi meiN tha keh aapka bulava aa gaya' -> I'd just begun work when you called.


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## panjabigator

What I mean is that you can't go around and create new phrases that follow this construction, i.e., <ghar kii laD.kii> cannot be <laD.kii-e-ghar>.  

When I was living in Lucknow, I did encounter the izafat a lot with Urdu speakers, so it is very much alive and kicking.


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## BP.

Why can't you? Ghar ki kaRki becomes dosheeza-e-ghar. Do it all the time. Am culpable of being among the progeny of Lucknowites though!

Hey gator, have you some tips to get my Panjabi accent right? I've tried speaking words shared by Urdu and Panjabi the Panjabi way but believe me I was the lone kid at school who couldn't. Which parts of the mouth do I need to stress using? Its a bit nasal I know, which btw is a pronunciational sin in Urdu.


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why can't you? Ghar ki kaRki becomes dosheeza-e-ghar. Do it all the time. Am culpable of being among the progeny of Lucknowites though!
> 
> Hey gator, have you some tips to get my Panjabi accent right? I've tried speaking words shared by Urdu and Panjabi the Panjabi way but believe me I was the lone kid at school who couldn't. Which parts of the mouth do I need to stress using? Its a bit nasal I know, which btw is a pronunciational sin in Urdu.


 
Ahl-e Zubaan kehtey hain... k.... Izafa compounds should only be used with Persian words... So you could make it dosheeza-e-khaanaa...

Actually I find it funny having desi words in Izaafa compounds...

Imagine, the extreme of it could be something like kuRi-e-piND.....


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## BP.

Yeah, dosheeza-e-khaana is the correct term, but nothing stops us using badly invented ones as long as the person you're speaking to doesn't know!


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## Cilquiestsuens

Exactly; But it is a fact that people have started using it with non-persian words... Which is perfectly fine and funny... I guess that these izafat constructions come more spontaneously to people reading (even modern) Urdu poetry where it is freely used


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## BP.

Have they now? I haven't heard many people even use it where it could be, remaining well within persian constructs. Not sure about the poetry thing, but those whos mother tongue is Urdu use it more often than others.

It only gets funny when I try to innovate! Some in the audience have a good laugh out of it.


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## panjabigator

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why can't you? Ghar ki kaRki becomes dosheeza-e-ghar. Do it all the time. Am culpable of being among the progeny of Lucknowites though!
> 
> Hey gator, have you some tips to get my Panjabi accent right? I've tried speaking words shared by Urdu and Panjabi the Panjabi way but believe me I was the lone kid at school who couldn't. Which parts of the mouth do I need to stress using? Its a bit nasal I know, which btw is a pronunciational sin in Urdu.



Dosheeza e ghar!  Woah, what a creation.  Indic meets Persian.

As for your accent, I suggest that you enunciate every sound.  Break up conjunct clusters and practice your tones.  It also depends on which Panjabi you want to emulate.


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## BP.

Sorry mate, I meant dosheeza-e-khaana. Plural: dosheezaan-e-khaana. Very useful phrase.

About Panjabi speech, I find that one word almost flows into the other, almost like French. That's a different behaviour from the two other tonal languages I've heard, Mandarin and Sindhi.


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## BP.

The _e_ is a shorter altenative, maybe even a condensed version, of _haaey _(ھاے). The latter is heavy and almost restricted to poetry and written prose. E.g. _inqilaabaat haaey zamaana_ vs _inqilaabaat-e-zamaana_.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Sorry mate, I meant dosheeza-e-khaana. Plural: dosheezaan-e-khaana. Very useful phrase.


 

This plural of doosheezah / -eh is wrong! When a Farsi noun ends in a ‘-ah’ / ‘-eh’, then the plural is formed by adding –gaan not –aan:

 bachchah / eh (sing.)  but bachchagaan / bachchegaan (plural)

 doosheezah / eh (sing.) ->  dooshezagaan / dooshezegaan (plural)

[The –ah vs –eh is a difference of pronunciation between Indo-Pak Farsi (-ah) vs Iranian (-eh)]


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## BP.

Thanks for the correction. It sounded wrong the moment I wrote it but I shrugged it off. Yeah, your word rhymes well with zachchagaan au bhachchagaan.
So Heela becomes Heelagaan as well?


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> The _e_ is a shorter altenative, maybe even a condensed version, of _haaey _(ھاے). The latter is heavy and almost restricted to poetry and written prose. E.g. _inqilaabaat haaey zamaana_ vs _inqilaabaat-e-zamaana_.


 

The word _inqilaabaat_ is itself a plural of _inqilaab_, so _inqilaabaathaa_ would make it a _jam’-ul-jama’_. I know both Urdu and Arabic use _jam’-ul-jama’_. For example:

  In Urdu we use vajah (sing.)  à vujooh (pl) à vujoohaat (pl. of pl.,i.e. jam’-ul-jama’). I’m not sure if Farsi also does this. Usually I have read _inqilaabhaa_ in Farsi.   



The_ e _(izaafah) can be used in both singular and plurals as follows:


inqilaab-e-zamaanah (    انقلابِ زمانہ ) vs. inqilaabhaay-e-zamaanah (   انقلابھایِ زمانہ ).

In speech one often hears _inqilaabaay-e-zamaanah - _without the 'h'.


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## BP.

Are you sure you're noy confusing the plural for with the connecting word ھاے? As in _kaarobaar haaey Hayaat_ or _paaey haaey istaqlaal._ Ghaalib used this heavy construction often during his early period.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Thanks for the correction. It sounded wrong the moment I wrote it but I shrugged it off. Yeah, your word rhymes well with zachchagaan au bhachchagaan.
> So Heela becomes Heelagaan as well?




For Heelah  (=  حِیلَہ) there is the Arabic broken plural Hiyal (=  حِیَل). 

But another good example is: 

numaayandah  = نمایندہ, gives the plural numaayandegaan = نمایندگان


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Are you sure you're noy confusing the plural for with the connecting word ھاے? As in _kaarobaar haaey Hayaat_ or _paaey haaey istaqlaal._ Ghaalib used this heavy construction often during his early period.



Farsi forms plurals in various way:

by adding _-aan_ / _-gaan_ (we already have examples above). Also _-yaan_ as in _aaqaa_ / _aaghaa_ --> _aaqaayaan_ / _aaghayaan_

by adding _jaat_,as in _sabzi_ --> _sabzijaat_

by adding _-haa_, _asb_ (horse) --> _asbhaa. _This is used very frequently and may be used for both rational and irrational beings, as well as inanimate objects, e.g. _kitaab_ --> _kitaabhaa_; _medaad_ --> _medaadhaa_; etc.

Adjectives, following nouns etc. go at the very end: _asbhaay-e-khoob _= Good horses, as opposed to _asb-e-khobi = _a / the good horse (context depending).

In poetry Ghalib used _haay-e-_ even when it would not be used in prose, e.g. _naghmah-haay-e-gham_. As normally _naghmah_ takes the regular Arabic feminine plural _naghmaat_, Ghalib would seem to be breaking this rule. But he isn't. In poetry a number of things are allowed for the sake of prosody. All about balance. So we see him use this plural form frequently. Similarly, a poet would use _ki_ instead of _keh_, because in poetry and only in poetry it was meant to be used, just as _ze_ insteadof _az_ is used often in poetry. The former (_ze_) is not used in prose and common speech where one should always use the latter (_az_). Poetic  licence allows you to do quite a few things.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question. I think I have.


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## BP.

You did. _Tashakkur-e-besyaar_.


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## panjabigator

By ze do you means saying something like <kam ze kam> instead of <kam az kam>?


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## Faylasoof

Oh no! Not that! We never use it like that in Urdu. What I said was that only in poetry is it allowed to use _ze, _if required. For example:

 زبس كہ مشقِ تماشا جنوں علامت ہے
 كشاد و بستِ  مژہ  سیلی  ندامت  ہے

_*ze* bas keh mashq-e-tamaasha junooN ‘alamat hai
  kushaad o bast-e-muzhah  seelee  nidaamat  hai_

                                            -  Ghalib



OR, as I already quoted Amir Khusrao's verse in the post about qawwali / Chishti:

_*ze* haal-e-miskiN makon taghaaful duraay naina banaay batyaN

_But in prose and speech we don't use _ze_, always _az._ So it will always be _kam az kam_ or _az yaaN ta waaN = yahaaN se wahaaN tak._.. and to be honest I can't recall a single Urdu (or Farsi) verse at the moment where _kam az kam_ was used, but _kam se kam_ I do recall but not too well right now. I shall need to look for these! Doesn't mean it hasn't been used.


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## Lugubert

I have saved most of this discussion, because, vocabulary apart, the ezafe is the one grammar thing that I've found that significantly makes a difference between "Hindi" and "Urdu".


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## panjabigator

But you do find izafa within Hindi as well.  Certain phrases like <saza e maut> for the death penalty, for example.  I've yet to hear a "Hindi" equivalent.


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## Faylasoof

I think here we get into the old problem of what is Hindi vs Urdu!  

Non-Sanskritised Hindi and what we call middle register Urdu have a lot in common! They are virtually the same. Once this was called 'Hindustani' and, as we were recently discussing, Gandhi was hoping that this would become the national language of an undivided India! Afterall, Hindustani had spread all the way to west in the Punjab and to the east in Bengal. The latter was quite something as Bengalis are very proud of their own language, and rightly so.

Gandhi had opted for the Nagri script for this _lingua franca_ of the sub-continent for obvious reasons


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## BP.

PG, 2 things

1 - It doesn't matter that the word _maut_ is Arabic and _sazaa_ is Persian and they've been joined by a Persian/Urdu connecting _Harkat_, the term is widely understood and therefore a _Hindi_ one as any other. 

2 - _Izaafa_ in itself may not be Hindi rule, since Hindiphones do not invent new terms like that on a during their daily conversations. Can you hand out _sazaa-e-_detention to an unruly school kid?


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## prerit

If _*qisse*_ is the correct plural for _*qissah(story) *_then can we use it with *Izâfâ *like *qisse-e-muhabbat *or *qisse-e-ishq*?
For eg -
*ab tumhein apne qisse-e-muhabbat kya sunayein?*


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## HZKhan

prerit said:


> If _*qisse*_ is the correct plural for _*qissah(story) *_then can we use it with *Izâfâ *like *qisse-e-muhabbat *or *qisse-e-ishq*?
> For eg -
> *ab tumhein apne qisse-e-muhabbat kya sunayein?*



No, that usage is considered wrong in Urdu. The plural forms in an izafat construction must be of Persian or Arabic. 

The following variants of your sentence will be considered correct:

ab tumheN apne *qissa-haa-e-mahabbat* kyaa sunaaeN?
or
ab tumheN apne *qisas-e-mahabbat* kyaa sunaaeN?


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## prerit

thanks a lot pakistani khan sir


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## Sheikh_14

Some scholars argue that as the izaafat is a zer it ought to be pronounced as i rather than e. Personally I have heard it be pronounced both with a softer i sound but primarily a pronounced e. Where would you guys stand? Are you amongst the i proponents or firmly in the e camp?


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## Qureshpor

The Tajiks still pronounce it as an "i" but in Iran and the Subcontinent (and Afghanistan too, I think), it has become an "e". This is through natural evolution. So, there is no need to emulate the older pronunciation.


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## Jashn

panjabigator said:


> But you do find izafa within Hindi as well.  Certain phrases like <saza e maut> for the death penalty, for example.  I've yet to hear a "Hindi" equivalent.



Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought it was mrityudand/मृत्युदंड ?


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> But you do find izafa within Hindi as well.  Certain phrases like <saza e maut> for the death penalty, for example.  I've yet to hear a "Hindi" equivalent.


Usually, in court scenes in the films. DipTii Nazeer Ahmed the famous Urdu novelist, translated the Indian Penal code in Urdu (ta3ziiraat-i-Hind) and the legal language from his translation is captured in Bollywood film court scenes. He died in 1910.


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## Jashn

Qureshpor said:


> Usually, in court scenes in the films. DipTii Nazeer Ahmed the famous Urdu novelist, translated the Indian Penal code in Urdu (ta3ziiraat-i-Hind) and the legal language from his translation is captured in Bollywood film court scenes. He died in 1910.



Out of curiosity, Qureshpor, if pronouncing the izaafat as 'i' is not necessary because it has passed to 'e' in most modern dialects of Urdu and Persian as you mentioned above, why write it with an 'i' as you did in this quote? I've noticed some Urdu speakers write it thus and always wondered about it because, in my admittedly limited exposure to Urdu, I've never heard anyone actually say it that way. Is it just tradition or am I (likely) missing something?


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## Qureshpor

Jashn said:


> Out of curiosity, Qureshpor, if pronouncing the izaafat as 'i' is not necessary because it has passed to 'e' in most modern dialects of Urdu and Persian as you mentioned above, why write it with an 'i' as you did in this quote? I've noticed some Urdu speakers write it thus and always wondered about it because, in my admittedly limited exposure to Urdu, I've never heard anyone actually say it that way. Is it just tradition or am I (likely) missing something?


The answer is quite simple Jashn SaaHib. I am trying to stick to the Urdu writing system, to the extent that I can without following everything to the last letter. تعزیراتِ ہند = ta3ziiraat-i-Hind. Your exposure to Urdu might be "limited" but your name "Jashn" is most certainly Urdu!


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