# First Choice of Second Language



## Lourdes Luna

Hi Foreros

How everybody knows in Mexico the first language is Spanish but the second language that you would have to learn is English, in almost all schools teach english, it could be because Mexico is border with USA and we are the commercial partners.

I would like to know which is the second language in others countries, also if you can choose it or not.

Thank you all
Lulú


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## Chaska Ñawi

In Canada we're bilingual English/French, so our second language (mandatory in school) is one or the other.

Exceptions are native children, who have the option of studying their native language (ie, Mohawk, Cree, Inuktitut) as a second language instead.


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## Lourdes Luna

Thank you Chaska Ñawi

Could someone know about Europe, Asia or Latin America???


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## Suane

We in Slovakia (Europe, next to the Poland, Czech, Ukraine, Austria, Hungary, if somebody doesn't know yet) theoretically don't have second language, everybody can choose mostly between English, German, French, Russian or maybe Spanish, but practically everyone is studying English (because it is "necessary" nowadays) and as the third language he/she usually chooses German or French. I remember in my primary school there were 3 first grade (6 years old kids) classes, in two of them you study English and in one German. And then in the fifth grade (10 years old kids) you take also the second one (so almost everyone has English and German). But I remeber also classes with Russian-German and no English. But in the high school (15-18/19) we have English and then you could choose German or French. I don't know about the other schools but it should be pretty much similar.
In the past (in the socialist era) we had to study Russian, but I missed it.


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## ronanpoirier

Here in Brazil mostly school teach English since 1st grade.
Now the spanish language is obligatory in high schools.
It depends on the school you study the second language... when I was at elementary school I had spanish in grades 5 and 6, and english in grades 7 e 8. I heard that it teaches french in grades 3 and 4 nowadays.
At high school I "studied" (believe me, it's impossible to learn a language at schools... the basic maybe, but a higher level... maybe in some private schools) english, but there was the spanish option too... now, as I said, it's obligatory.

Some schools have a bilingual curriculum, so they teach, besides portuguese of course, english and german. And in some little towns, german and italian are spoken! So portuguese is their second language.

PS.: I'm tlaking about what I know from the state I live, Rio Grande do Sul.


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## Ilmo

In Finland, the Swedish used to be the obligatory second language in the secondary school, because there is a minority of some 5-6 % Swedish speaking Finns. However, nowadays, the English can be chosen instead as the secondary language, but in any case the Swedish is obligatory before you can begin your university studies.
The Finnish and the Swedish are both official languages of the Republic of Finland, determined in the constitution.


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## Zakalwe

In France, we do not have to choose one but two second languages (at least it was like this 8 years ago).
At the age of 10/11, we have to choose between _english _and _german _for the second language. Then at the age of 12/13, we have to choose between _english_, _german _and _spanish _(if you have chosen _german_, you have to choose _english_) for the third language. But at the age of 14/15, you will be able to choose if you want to continue your third language or not.
Nowadays it looks like children start to learn english before the age of 10 and that it is possible to choose a different third language like _chinese _or _japanese_.

In Spain, it seems that there is only one second language that is _english_. I don't know if you can choose a third language. But it is special there because people also learn the local language (_catalan _in Barcelona, _valenciano _in Valencia, ...).


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## Ilmo

Lourdes Luna said:
			
		

> Hi Foreros
> 
> How everybody knows in Mexico the first language is...
> 
> Lulú


 
Lulú, sugiero lo siguiente: As everyboy... 
Or: Like everybody..
Cómo = how
Como = as, like

Saludos
Ilmo


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## Outsider

I believe English has recently started to be taught as a second language from 1st. grade on, in Portuguese schools. Until now, in most schools, you only had to choose a foreign language in the 5th grade. You could choose between English, French and German, but I think most people picked English.


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## Lourdes Luna

Ilmo said:
			
		

> Lulú, sugiero lo siguiente: As everyboy...
> Or: Like everybody..
> Cómo = how
> Como = as, like
> 
> Saludos
> Ilmo


 
Gracias Ilmo lo tomaré en cuenta...

Lulú


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## Lourdes Luna

Thank you Suan, Ronanpoirier, Ilmo, Zacalwe and Outsider...

It's very interesting to see that in Europe children have to learn two, three or more languages, for this reason many European people are multilingual.
In México the goverment schools only teach basic english, if you want that your children learn a good english you have to pay for a private school but private schools are expensives and many people can't afford to pay them.

Thanks again
Lulú


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## maxiogee

Do teachers not offer what we in Ireland call "Grinds" - private lessons in just one subject?
A pupil in a school which wasn't providing a particular subject, or who wasn't doing well in a particular subject, can find a teacher who takes a few pupils a week and tutors them in his or her home.


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## Span_glish

Although Spanish is the official language in *Guatemala*, 23 distinct Mayan languages are spoken and for many Spanish is a second language, but this is in the rural area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_language
The second language is English, some private schools offer a third one such as German and Italian, not so much French.


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## Andrutzu

Hello!
In Romania the first foreign language taught in schools is usually English. It starts in the second grade (7-8 years old); than in the 6th grade (11-12 years old) it's introduced the second foreign language, usually French or German. So we continue to study 2 foreign languages until the end of high-school and further it depends on the profile of the university. Of course, French or German (or maybe even Italian and Russian, but rarely) can be the first choice of a scool as a first foreign language, but English is usually what the majority kids start learning in the elementary school. 
Bye!!!


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## Lourdes Luna

Thank you Maxiogee, Span glish and Andrutzu (welcome to WR)

Lulú


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## aa92

i live in england i dont really have a second language that i can speak fluently, but in my school, we can learn lots of different languages. At the moment i'm learning german and french and for gcse we can do spanish as well. At A-level we can study italian. I have cousins that live in Wales they speak english and welsh.


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## Annwn

In Sweden there are 5 minority languages considered by the government as "second" laguage, but neither of them are taught in school as mandatory subjects, unless the student so requires. These are _Meänkieli_(also called Tornedalfinska), _Finnish_, _Yiddish_, _Romani_ and _Sami _languages, spoken in the far north of the Scandinavian peninsula.

But I guess everybody, when in school, picks English as second language, even if later on, when you´re older (13-17) you can choose to learn Spanish, German, Italian or French. 


Outsider, you said that in Portugal, english has started to be taught in 1st grade, is that public, state schools? Is it a part of the educational program? 

I guess it depends on which school you apply to (this when you´re on the 5th grade), some don´t have for ex., enough staff to teach german, so you only have the choice of english or french...No? 
What I mean is, does the availability of active teachers (for there are many unnemployed..) affect the way the subjects are scheduled and put in practice?
I´m just wondering... 

 

***


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## weirdgirl

Hi

In Northern Ireland you start to learn a second language in the first year of secondary school (at the age of 11/12) usually French but some schools also have German, Spanish or Irish. Depending on the school you may start 2 languages then (ie French and Irish). There are also some schools (both primary and secondary) which teach everything through the Irish language although they still study English and in secondary at least one other foreign language, usually French. 

In Japan (I teach English there) English is taught as a second language from the beginning of Junior High School (12/13) and is compulsory right through Junior and Senior High Schools. English is part of the exam students have to pass to get into university. Some schools also have some English classes in elementary school but this not compulsory and there is no assessment for it.

Maire


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## Lourdes Luna

Thak you Maire, aa92 and Annwn

Regards,
Lulú


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## danielfranco

Hi, Lulú!
I just wanted to comment that, here in the States, the official second language that you must learn depends on the _state_ in which you live!
Weird, no?
It's not common knowledge (sometimes even the natives themselves don't know it) that the USA has no official language, and each state chooses which language is their official language. Some states even choose official second languages, so there you are!
Cool, no?
Bueno bye.
Dan F


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## Juri

In Slovenia teaching English begins in kindergarten, and is obligatory in all
grades of school.


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## stevea

**Moderator note: Two threads on the same subject were merged. 
​ 
In the UK, choosing a second language to learn is a bit hit and miss. Back in my school days we had to learn some Welsh but without having Welsh speakers in the family it is truly difficult. 

Next came high school and everyone did French for while. 

I wonder why Spanish wasn't more available as it is so widely spoken. In the UK we tend to think that choosing English as a second language is an easy decsion because it is spoken all over the world.


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## Teena

In Uzbekistan they taught us (aside from russian) uzbek and english as second language. In Canada the 2nd language was french.


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## epasf

In Spain, we do not have to choose one but two second languages. Usually English and French. But when i was little only one language was mandatory. Besides some areas has two oficial languages and clindren have to take both.


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## Earth Dragon

In the United States:  
The south (particularly in and around California and Texas) starts Spanish in middle school (ages 11-14)
Northern states tend to learn French in high school (ages 14-19).  
Those of us in the middle have a much larger selection.  Most pick Spanish, but French is available in most high schools.  German is available in a lot of schools as well.


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## kruthskins

Earth Dragon said:


> In the United States:
> The south (particularly in and around California and Texas) starts Spanish in middle school (ages 11-14)
> Northern states tend to learn French in high school (ages 14-19).
> Those of us in the middle have a much larger selection. Most pick Spanish, but French is available in most high schools. German is available in a lot of schools as well.


 
I went to school in a middle state (Colorado) so we had Spanish, French and German. I had just assumed that all states had at least those 3. Is Spanish really not a common language to teach in the northern states? That seems odd. Although native Spanish speakers aren't extremely common in those states (or at least not as common as in the Southwest), it still seems like they'd be much more common than native French speakers.


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## danielfranco

Unless one considers that Canada is right there, and there's a lot of francophones around…

D


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## Miguelillo 87

Lourdes Luna said:


> In México the goverment schools only teach basic english, if you want that your children learn a good english you have to pay for a private school but private schools are expensives and many people can't afford to pay them.


 
Lulú you are right in your state that private schools in Mexico are so expensive, even I have to say English schools are the most cheaper in comparision with French, japanese or german schools.

But I have to say I dont agree with the state, public schools are only basic, It's true the english given as a subject in secondary and high school is really basic, but we have some public schools where obly languages are taught; and They're really good, I'm talking about the Languages Centers which are part of the UNAM and IPN; We have to rememeber the UNAM is one of the best universities in the world and the first in Hispanoamerica; so believe me languages taught there are really good level. 

And extremly cheap!!!!


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## Lugubert

Annwn said:


> In Sweden there are 5 minority languages considered by the government as "second" laguage, but neither of them are taught in school as mandatory subjects, unless the student so requires. These are _Meänkieli_(also called Tornedalfinska), _Finnish_, _Yiddish_, _Romani_ and _Sami _languages, spoken in the far north of the Scandinavian peninsula.
> 
> But I guess everybody, when in school, picks English as second language, even if later on, when you´re older (13-17) you can choose to learn Spanish, German, Italian or French.


I don't think there's even a choice for 2nd language. It's English, which is required for University studies. In the 60's, the compulsory sequence was English - German - French, addding Latin and/or Greek for one stream and possibly just adding Spanish for others.

On 3rd language, German now has declined and French seems to be more _en vogue_. Some schools usefully offer Chinese. Any language when asked for by x pupils and where teachers are available will do.


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## trance0

Well, it is sort of understandable that English is the most studied language in most countries since it has become the new lingua franca of the modern world. In the future this title might go to Chinese, Spanish or even Arabic. In Slovenia, English and Serbo-Croatian are the most widely spoken foreign languages, followed by German and Italian. Among other languages Spanish is becoming increasingly popular and French is also gaining in popularity again.


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## Welshie

In the UK it is no longer compulsory to study a second language after the age of 14 (what we call year 9). Given that we only start studying a second language at the age of 12, this means our foreign language skills are not the best. Typically the second language studied is French, although in schools in Wales it's commonly Welsh. Most schools also offer German or Spanish as a third language.


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## LaReinita

In my high school, we had a choice between Spanish, French and German, but you weren't required to take a second language at all.  I took Spanish from 7th-12th grade and French from 9th-12th, but I never really liked French class due to my teacher.  It is probably required now.  I know that a lot of schools are starting Spanish classes early now, which is a good idea.  I am in the Northeast and there are tons of Spanish speaking people around here, not just in the south.


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## sifueratica

Here in New York most larger public high schools offer French and Spanish and the students get to choose. Sometimes Chinese and German are available as well. 

Mi amiga chapina estudió en una escuela alemana y ahí aprendió alemán, pero no creo que sea muy común en Guatemala. Más bien había mucha gente que hablaba inglés, o un dialecto, como segundo idioma.


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## Giorgio Lontano

sifueratica said:


> Here in New York most larger public high schools offer French and Spanish and the students get to choose. Sometimes Chinese and German are available as well.
> 
> Mi amiga chapina estudió en una escuela alemana y ahí aprendió alemán, pero no creo que sea muy común en Guatemala. Más bien había mucha gente que hablaba inglés, o un dialecto, como segundo idioma.


 
It's like Span_glish said above:



Span_glish said:


> Although Spanish is the official language in *Guatemala*, 23 distinct Mayan languages are spoken and for many Spanish is a second language, but this is in the rural area.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_language
> The second language is English, some private schools offer a third one such as German and Italian, not so much French.


 
These private schools are often far more expensive than the "regular" private schools, not to speak of public schools. Most people will choose English as a second language (or third in the case of the mayan languages speakers), due to the influence of the US in the region.

Regards.


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## fragile1

In Poland the first foreign language in schools is practically English. 
In the past Russian was obligatory same in Poland like in other socialistic countries around. So now, very many Poles still can use Russian.
Teaching second language starts in Poland in age 4-5 in kindergardens, paying by parents. So taht is a kind of privet lessons, but usually everybody pays for it. Than, in the school, since 7 years old childern have to learn English. There are some other possibilities, but if a child learn another language than English  is like a third. English is usually what the majority kids start learning in the elementary school. Very many people learn German, French, Spanish, Italian and other European languages.
The interesting thing is, that many teenagers learn Japanes, Chineese, Koraen and other Asiatic languages what 10 or 15 years ago was quait impossible.


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## phosphore

In Serbia, some 70-80% of primary and high school students study English as the foreign language, some 15-20% study Russian, 10-15% French and 5-10% study German. I heard that now Italian can be chosen too.

This is different than the situation from some 10 years ago when 60% of students studied English, 25% Russian, 10-15% French and less that 5% German, and far different than the situation from some 40 years ago when more than 60% studied Russian, 20% English, 15% French and just above 10% studied English.


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## Stumpy457

In America, there are many Spanish-speaking people (especially where I live, in North Carolina), so _all _high-schools teach Spanish and nearly everyone takes it. NOOOOWWWW, that is NOT to say everyone can speak it. Oh, no. I'm in Honors Spanish 3 and I'm one of the few people who are decent at the language. You should HEAR the stupid things people say! Oy...

I go to a small-ish private school, so we can only afford to offer 1 language right now, but most public schools offer French and Spanish, and I've heard German offered, too.


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## Toadie

I've not heard of a public high school in America that does not offer Spanish.  That said, I've also not heard of anyone learning a language at a proficient level relying solely on what they've learned in school.

In my county, the requirement to graduate is to have taken two years of the same foreign language--obviously there is not a huge stress on the ability to speak foreign languages.  Most people take Spanish.  We also offer French, German, and Latin, but they don't compare to the number of students in Spanish.  Personally, I take French and German, though I don't really learn much in either, and most of what I know in both (especially German--I haven't really learned any German from school at all, and it's coincidentally my best foreign language), I learned at home in my own independent studies.  A huge number of people quit taking language courses after that second year, so the first two years really were a joke.  They have a very low, if any, level of proficiency in the language they "studied".  

@ Danielfranco:  That's very interesting that each state picks the official language!  Thanks for posting that.  I thought I had heard something a few months ago about a Texas vote about making Spanish an official language, or something, and it kind of confused me.

In the North East, I would say French is more prevalent than Spanish due to the close proximity of Québec.  I know a few people from Maine and they know much more French than Spanish.


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## elirlandes

In the Republic of Ireland, the final set of school exams taken at the age of 17 or 18 is called the Leaving Certificate. To enter university, you are expected to have passed exams in English & Irish (usually, English as a first language, and Irish taught as a second language), as well as one modern European language.

There are about 60,000 students every year taking these exams, of which about 50,000 take French, 15,000 take German and a few thousand take Spanish. That said, Spanish is growing very quickly.

When I took the Intermediate Certificate (public exams taken at age 15), I was one of only *4* people in the country who took the Italian exam that year... (!)


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## Basaloe

In Sweden you have to learn english at the age of 10, at the age of 13 choose between french, german and spanish, and at the age of 16 you normally can choose to study russian and italian also.


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## Pas de Mai

In Pennsylvania (at least in the area that I live), students in 5th and 6th grade take compulsory nine-week courses of Latin, German, French, and Spanish.

Then, from 7th grade and on (up to 12th grade), students choose one (or more) of these languages which they are required to study during 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th grade.


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## wildan1

In the US most students, unfortunately, don't get to study a foreign language until secondary school. When I was that age, French was the most widely chosen language (at least in the area where I lived) but nowadays I would say Spanish is the preferred first foreign language in most places--it is becoming a de facto second "official" language in our country and in cities with large Hispanic populations many signs, information, newspapers, etc. appear in Spanish as well as English.

Other options--often depending on the region and the immigration patterns of people living in a given region--include German, Italian, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, etc.


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## SaveTheManatees

At my school (California, USA) we have a choice between Spanish, French, Japanese, Russian, and American Sign Language. Spanish is the most popular for obvious reasons. Followed by French and Japanese. Other schools in my area offer German and Mandarin. No school preference is really forced on us, we can take whatever is offered.


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## DominicanGirl239

Ilmo said:


> Lulú, sugiero lo siguiente: *As everyboy*...
> Or: Like everybody..
> Cómo = how
> Como = as, like
> 
> Saludos
> Ilmo



Yo sugeriría "as everyboDy" jeje xD 

Respecto al segundo idioma en mi país, República Dominicana, también se enseña inglés, pero también francés, desde segundo grado de primaria. Incluso se critica que muchas empresas de acá, siendo dominicanas, desarrollan todo en inglés, desde el nombre de las mismas hasta los formularios y publicidad. Considero útil aprender otros idiomas, pero sin olvidar cuál es el original. ¡¡Saludos!!


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## ahshav

In Israel, Hebrew is obviously the first language - and early on (I believe in third grade), English becomes a mandatory class until graduation from high school.

Some changes have been made recently, but there is some limited addition language requirement in high school. Usually Arabic is taught, and sometimes French. Somewhat recently, more languages are offered in certain areas - Russian where there are large Russian communities, Spanish for Argentinians and Amharic for Ethiopians.


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## IDK

Many have already said the same things, but students are allowed to choose, though Spanish or French is a required "course" for many elementary school students. Usually, French and Spanish are the main options, but German is available as well, but only in some high schools. Nowadays, some schools, especially in California, have started Chinese courses due to the increased demand for Chinese speakers in business and requests made by Chinese parents.


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## Polizón

Lourdes Luna said:


> Hi Foreros
> 
> How everybody knows in Mexico the first language is Spanish but the second language that you would have to learn is English, in almost all schools teach english, it could be because Mexico is border with USA and we are the commercial partners.
> 
> I would like to know which is the second language in others countries, also if you can choose it or not.
> 
> Thank you all
> Lulú


 
En el Perú, por amplia mayoría, el inglés; aunque en algunas ciudades hay colegios donde se aprende francés, alemán o italiano como segunda lengua.
Ahora bien, el castellano es el idioma oficial, y el quechua, el aymara y las otras lenguas aborígenes lo son dende se hable predominatemente. En ese caso, el segundo idioma es el español.
Saludos,
Polizón


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## Etcetera

In Russia, the most popular foreign language to learn is English. The reasons are obvious, it seems. 

I had English as my first foreign language, and German as second. A friend of mine had French as her first and English as second foreign language. We went to different schools, though. And, generally, children don't _choose _the language to study: they just learn what they're taught at schools. At most schools, English is taught as first foreign language. 

As for second foreign languages, it depends on the region. For example, here in St. Petersburg, many schools offer Finnish or Swedish - we're located very close to the Finnish border, and it takes some 5 hours to get from St. Petersburg to Helsinki, so Finnish is quite popular here. 

As for adults studying foreign languages, they, too, choose Engish most often.


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## brian

I went to a private, Catholic school in New Orleans and studied Latin for 5 years and Ancient Greek for 4 years. It depended on the "track" you were in as to whether you took 1 or 2 foreign languages. Everyone could choose Latin, French, or Spanish in 9th grade, but only those who started Latin in 8th grade (advanced track) could choose Ancient Greek in 9th grade.

So I didn't start my first modern foreign language until my sophomore year of college a few years ago.

Most people, however, took Spanish or French (more Spanish than French, I think). But I think that in general, in southern Louisiana, because of the huge French/Cajun influence, most people take French. My stepmother's family is Cajun and speaks Cajun French, and they all took standard French in high school.

After Katrina, we had a huge influx of South American immigrants come to New Orleans (lots of work opportunity), which is great because for the first time we have wonderful, authentic Mexican, etc. restaurants.  But our Spanish-speaking population has _really_ grown, so I expect more people will start learning Spanish here than ever before (also because Cajun and Creole French is dying out).


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## chifladoporlosidiomas

Toadie said:


> I've not heard of a public high school in America that does not offer Spanish. That said, I've also not heard of anyone learning a language at a proficient level relying solely on what they've learned in school.
> 
> In my county, the requirement to graduate is to have taken two years of the same foreign language--obviously there is not a huge stress on the ability to speak foreign languages. Most people take Spanish. We also offer French, German, and Latin, but they don't compare to the number of students in Spanish. Personally, I take French and German, though I don't really learn much in either, and most of what I know in both (especially German--I haven't really learned any German from school at all, and it's coincidentally my best foreign language), I learned at home in my own independent studies. A huge number of people quit taking language courses after that second year, so the first two years really were a joke. They have a very low, if any, level of proficiency in the language they "studied".
> 
> @ Danielfranco: That's very interesting that each state picks the official language! Thanks for posting that. I thought I had heard something a few months ago about a Texas vote about making Spanish an official language, or something, and it kind of confused me.
> 
> In the North East, I would say French is more prevalent than Spanish due to the close proximity of Québec. I know a few people from Maine and they know much more French than Spanish.


 

Here in California, we have almost every language imaginable! I have friends in San Jose who take Vietnamese and even Hmong! 
Here in the Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, Richmond, Hayward, etc.) students can choose from Spanish, French, Latin, German,Tagalog/Filipino, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, and/or Arabic (among the most common)! Quite amazing!!!


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## bb008

Hola
 
En Venezuela el único idioma es el español, sin embargo es una materia obligatoria estudiar inglés en bachillerato (secundaria) y hay algunas escuelas (primaria - no todas) que dan inglés, también algunos preescolares (muy caros por cierto - no todos), también comienzan a estimular a los bebes-niños para el aprendizaje del inglés. En la Universidad también es una materia obligatoria, pero creo que más que todo como un conocimiento general, por que son muy pocos los que salen hablando perfectamente inglés, así que no sé por qué, pero es así, o terminas olvidando lo aprendido o refuerzas siempre con algún curso.
 
Saludos.-


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## brian

Hola bb008,

¿no se puede estudiar francés o italiano en Venezuela en bachillerato?


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## bb008

brian8733 said:


> Hola bb008,
> 
> ¿no se puede estudiar francés o italiano en Venezuela en bachillerato?


 

Si, se me olvidaba (esto era cuando yo estudiaba, por que ahora tendría que averiguar, por que tenemos diez años que nos cambian una cosa, la otra, total que nada es definitivo), en bachillerato hasta el tercer año se estudia sólo inglés, después escoges los dos últimos años por Ciencias, Humanidades o un Bachillerato Técnico que es aquel que trae una especialización, depende de la carrera por ejemplo dibujo técnico, (te harías Bachiller en Ciencias mención Dibujo Técnico y puedes trabajar como auxiliar de un arquitecto, por ejemplo o se te hace más fácil entrar en Arquitectura en la Universidad) mercadeo, contabilidad, etc., hace muchos años otros bachilleres hacían hasta un sexto año, el bachillerato en Venezuela es de cinco actualmente, él normal (por que "misión Robinson" te hace Bachiller casi en tres meses...). Por qué explicó esto, primero, por que si te ibas por Ciencias, te daban inglés y latín, en cambio si seleccionabas Humanidades se veía, inglés, latín, griego y francés, por lo menos yo me fui por Humanidades y estudie, inglés, francés, griego y latín, por dos años nada más. Por cierto era obligatorio, no había opciones y creo que actualmente en Ciencias vez inglés y el otro que lo acompaña no lo tengo claro y en Humanidades vez inglés y francés, casi estoy segura que ya no dan ni griego ni latín, pero no lo puedo asegurar, tendría que averiguarlo, como dije antes.-

Saludos.-


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## Joannes

The situation for Belgium, quoted from another thread:



> People are generally not bilingually raised so it often comes down to education. I explained the current situation for Brussels with many French speaking people getting perfectly bilingual. In Flanders, starting from the age of 10, children have French as their first second language, four years later they also get English and depending on the pupil's choices, he or she can be taught German (or sometimes Spanish) too. (This is all before going to college, obviously..) But in Brussels, children in Dutch speaking schools are taught French right from the start (at the age of 6)!
> 
> In Wallonia (corrigez-moi si je me trompe..), there is no obligatory second language learning in primary school. In secondary school, from the age of 12, children should choose a first second language (options English and Dutch), later they can choose a second.
> 
> The last few years more and more _francophone_ parents want their children to learn Dutch and this works: Dutch proficiency in the South _is_ getting better. In the North, the French proficiency of the pupils (and especially of people that are out of school..) seems to get worse.
> 
> As for the German speaking Community: I don't know about their educational system, but most are bilingual German-French and although I'm not sure whether many do speak Dutch, learning it shouldn't be really difficult for them anyway. (I know that the minister-president of the German speaking Community, Karl-Heinz Lambertz, is very proficient in all three of the official languages..)


----------



## havle

I guess in most countries English language is the second language (if it was not the first one).

In most Arab countries, English is the second language (like in KSA, Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, etc) and few other Arab countries their second language is French due to the french occupation of their countries (like Morocco and Algeria)


----------



## wonderlicious

The situation in the UK is really rather bleak nowadays (read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/aug/03/languages.schools1), but negativity aside, here's the general scheme:

Most people start learning languages in Year 7 (11-12 aka the first year of British high school), though perhaps earlier (either as a casual thing in primary school. In my school, we started French in Year 7 and then started learning another in Year 8 (either German or Spanish - I chose the former). For pretty much eternity, French has been the most studied foreign language, and it continues to be so. German has traditionally been the number two after French, though Spanish is now beginning to eclipse German as the second most studied language (bar English). Welsh (or English if you're a Welsh native speaker at a Welsh school) is mandatory in Wales.

Having said that, a lot more can be studied than just those. Some are some more obvious European languages (Italian, Russian etc), but in some schools (mainly in bigger cities), home languages such as Urdu can also be studied. Classical and religious languages are also taught in some places (mainly in private/religious schools).


----------



## nmkit

Toadie said:


> Danielfranco:  That's very interesting that each state picks the official language!  Thanks for posting that.  I thought I had heard something a few months ago about a Texas vote about making Spanish an official language, or something, and it kind of confused me.



Just to head this misconception off. Yes, it is true that The U.S. doesn't have an "official" language. This is left up to the individual states to decide if they deem it desirable. This is not compulsory, some states have done it,Texas for one, while many others have no such laws on the books.


----------



## effeundici

In Italian school 2 w foreign languages are mandatory. English of course, then you can choose between French, German or Spanish.

But I'm still wondering why my son has to spend 2 hours a week studying German when I'mpretty sure he will end up with speaking neither fluent English nor fluent German.

I'd definitely prefer he would concentrate his effort on English only.


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## randomfuoco

I live in New England (North East US) and there isn't really any one second language here. French is popular due to proximity to Quebec but Spanish is bigger due to the huge number of mexican immigrants in general, and its often viewed as the easiest of the offered languages so kids take it for two years to pass the language requirement easily (not that they actually learn anything). That being said, I studied Latin and Greek in Secondary and had friends doing German/Russian. At uni i'm studying Italian and Arabic,  so basically you can do pretty much whatever interests you.


----------



## Judica

wildan1 said:


> In the US most students, unfortunately, don't get to study a foreign language until secondary school. When I was that age, French was the most widely chosen language (at least in the area where I lived) but nowadays I would say Spanish is the preferred first foreign language in most places--it is becoming a de facto second "official" language in our country and in cities with large Hispanic populations many signs, information, newspapers, etc. appear in Spanish as well as English.
> 
> Other options--often depending on the region and the immigration patterns of people living in a given region--include German, Italian, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, etc.



I agree with you. I think secondary school is way too late to begin learning a foreign language. Everyone knows the younger one learns a language, the more retained.

In Panama, English and Spanish were taught starting in the 1st grade. 

In HS (US), I could pick between Latin, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, or Italian. I think nowadays youngsters can pick Arabic and Chinese also.


----------



## Talib

In Canada of course both French and English are official languages but in practice only a small minority of the population is bilingual. This is because of poor teaching practices and the lack of an economic reason to know French outside of the Ontario/Québec region. Thanks to the influx of English-language media (which the province tries to shield itself against) young Québecois will generally know English but the typical Anglophone Canadian doesn't speak French at all.

Now I wish I'd taken French immersion from a young age, and if I did I might be fluent now, but I only would want to learn that language for its political and economic usefulness, not because I'm particularly interested in it. I'd rather have a choice of different major languages to learn, and the options in Canadian schools are woefully limited. It might be different in a big city like Toronto, but I basically had a choice of French and nothing. I wouldn't have minded even a small selection like Spanish, German, Chinese, Japanese and Russian. And Arabic and Hebrew are out of the question. They are hardly ever taught below the university level despite their importance.


----------



## curly

elirlandes said:


> In the Republic of Ireland, the final set of school exams taken at the age of 17 or 18 is called the Leaving Certificate. To enter university, you are expected to have passed exams in English & Irish (usually, English as a first language, and Irish taught as a second language), as well as one modern European language.
> 
> There are about 60,000 students every year taking these exams, of which about 50,000 take French, 15,000 take German and a few thousand take Spanish. That said, Spanish is growing very quickly.
> 
> When I took the Intermediate Certificate (public exams taken at age 15), I was one of only *4* people in the country who took the Italian exam that year... (!)



I'd say that we are more than just expected, it's a condition to entry to have passed Irish (unless having an official exemption from it) in most universities.

Irish and English are taught as the two first languages(sort of). Technically Irish is the first official language and English is a second. Both are taught from the age of four or five. The only difference being whether other classes, such as maths, are taught in English or Irish.In practice, most schools teach other classes in English making Irish the second language.

A person cannot qualify to be a Primary school teacher(for children aged 4-12) without knowing Irish. You can't even study to be a primary teacher without at least a C in Higher Leaving Certificate Irish. 

English, Irish and Maths are required subjects for the Junior Certificate and Leaving Certificate. Otherwise a person can take an exam in almost any subject they wish. They could, if they wished, study nothing but languages and Maths.

Most children start to learn third and fourth languages from the age of 12. Without any statistics on hand I'd say that French and German are the two most popular third languages.
A list of languages it's possible to be examined in :


Arabic
English _(mandatory)_
French
German
Irish _(mandatory subject for NUI entry; some students can receive an exemption)_
Italian
Japanese
Russian
Hebrew
Spanish
Bulgarian
Czech
Danish
Dutch
Estonian
Finnish
Modern Greek
Hungarian
Latvian
Lithuanian
Polish
Portuguese
Romanian
Slovakian
Swedish
Of course, most schools don't give that much choice. 

Yours, 
Curly


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Excluding the gaelscoils where Irish is the medium through which education is given, classes in Ireland are taught entirely through English. Most Leaving Cert students take the "ordinary level" Irish language exam and here the vast majority cannot speak a word. I know an astonishing number of people who took the exam and passed after having completed it in under an hour, myself included.

This results from the bizarre way the language is taught. You are given a mountain of texts to read and analyze yet the resources given to aid you are in Irish only. It's as if the classes are geared to perfect your level, not teach you an entirely new language.

This ends up with the majority of students hating the language as they can't understand a word of what is going on.

In Ireland, our real "second language" is Irish, when the government get round to realizing that fact, maybe then we will see an improvement in language skills.


----------



## DigitalepurpureA

Lourdes Luna said:


> Hi Foreros
> 
> How everybody knows in Mexico the first language is Spanish but the second language that you would have to learn is English, in almost all schools teach english, it could be because Mexico is border with USA and we are the commercial partners.
> 
> I would like to know which is the second language in others countries, also if you can choose it or not.
> 
> Thank you all
> Lulú


Well, until 10/15 years ago the second language was mostly French, here in Italy, because of French domination here, because French used to be the Europe Nations and Aristocracies' way to communicate some centuries before...
With the increasing of the English language all over the world as the fastest way to communicate (also thanks to the fact that English maybe is more easier to learn than the way that French or German or Spanish or Italian are) it became the second language, French became the third and Spanish and German are both  the forth.
I studied languages in my high school, so we had English, French and Spanish.
And obviously Latin, because we are (luckily) almost "forced" to study Latin.
Maybe here in Italy Latin is given much more importance that English (and I disagree in part whit that).
^^


----------



## acemach

Here in Malaysia, there are 3 types of public primary school: Malay-medium, Mandarin-medium and Tamil-medium. 
Essentially all 3 schools teach the same thing in those languages, but both Malay (sole official language) and English are compulsory, so for Malay medium schools, the main 2nd language is English, while for the others, it's pretty much even between the two.

Nearly all public secondary schools (attended by 13-17 year olds) are Malay medium, though most offer Mandarin, Tamil, or other minority tongues optionally. In terms of class time allocated, Malay would be the first language, English second.

In daily life, however, this varies, especially in urban areas, where there are sizeable communities of native-bilingual English speakers. Generally, a working command of both English and Malay is needed, so I'd say one or the other is our main second language.

Ace


----------



## ywf

Most Chinese students learn English as their first second language; few choose some other language. Because there are only schools that just teach one foreign language - English in most cities, but I know there are Russian courses in some schools in some cities near Russia, and there are schools that teach languages other than English in some big cities, like Beijing, Shanghai, So the students there have an opportunity to choose not to learn English, but students in other places don't.


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## Hutschi

danielfranco said:


> ...
> It's not common knowledge (sometimes even the natives themselves don't know it) that the USA has no official language, and each state chooses which language is their official language. Some states even choose official second languages, so there you are!
> Cool, no?
> Bueno bye.
> Dan F


 
Here in my area it changed with the state.
Before the unification I lived behind the iron curtain, as you called it (in the GDR). The second language was Russian and it was mandatory.
After the unification it became mostly English.  

So it depends on school, on whishes of the parents and on region,  you can choose the second language. Mostly it is English, but also other languages are possible.

In my case, I started Russion at the 5th class and learned it about 10 years - with only basic success.

I started English at the seventh class and I can understand it now fluently, can speak it (with a strong accent) and can write it, as you see. Maybe I make some mistakes, however.

We have a "Sorbisch" area where the mother tongue is "sorbisch" - a slavonic language. 

In many schools the parents can select what they want as second and third language.


----------



## Encolpius

Hello, I've just read an interesting reliable statistics about foreign language learning in the _*Czech republic*_. Studying a foreign language is mandatory at secondary schools. *English 78%, German 58%*, French 6%, Russian 2,5%, Spanish 2,2%. It does not make 100%, because 53% of students studies only 1 langauges, the rest studies 2-3 foreign languages. I am quite surprised German is still popular, because heard the popularity is rapidly decreasing.


----------



## Mishe

Encolpius said:


> Hello, I've just read an interesting reliable statistics about foreign language learning in the _*Czech republic*_. Studying a foreign language is mandatory at secondary schools. *English 78%, German 58%*, French 6%, Russian 2,5%, Spanish 2,2%. It does not make 100%, because 53% of students studies only 1 langauges, the rest studies 2-3 foreign languages. I am quite surprised German is still popular, because heard the popularity is rapidly decreasing.




It's quite interesting to see how different second/foreign languages are important in different periods of history. In Slovenia, English is the absolute foreign (second) language today, but well until the second half of the 20th century it was German. Not to mention Serbo-Croatian between 1918-1990.  Nowadays however, German is still very important because of the economic power of German-speaking investors all over Central and Eastern Europe, especially in countries that were once part of former Austria-Hungary. When I was in Czech republic in 2001, many more people could speak German than English.


----------



## Vanda

Mishe said:


> About that, let's take our history: In the 1880s (end of the century) French was a must in my country: the language of diplomacy! Now, of course, it is English due to its globalized position.


What about Spanish? Isn't that the language of all your continent-mates? Or do you just understand it without studying it in school, since it is so close to Portuguese?


----------



## itreius

Since 2003, English belongs to the standard Grade 1 - Grade 8 curriculum in Croatian primary schools (up until 2003 a foreign language was only learned from Grade 4 onwards, learning it any earlier than that was optional). Some schools have German instead of English as the mandatory second language.
Grade 4 introduces an additional foreign language with the choices being Italian, German and English (obviously, only for the students who had thus far learned German as their second language).

As far as language proficiency is concerned, English is probably by far the most spoken foreign language (if you ignore other BCS variants) with German following closely (among older people it still probably takes the #1 spot though).


----------



## evanovka

Hello everybody, 

interesting topic!
In Germany, we have a federal education system, and as Hutschi said, we have some historic background on second language teaching with the four occupying forces and their three languages (I was tought UK-English even in the former US occupied zone ). Unfortunately, I am not really well informed about the other states, so I am in fact rather talking about Bavaria :-/ : 
In the schools leading to a degree the grants admission to universities (Gymnasium -> Abitur), language is connected to "specialization", i.e. you could have one of the following combinations (first foreign language starting at age of approx. 10 years):
- Latin, then English, then French: specialization in languages
- Latin, then English, no third: specialization natural sciences
- English, then French: natural sciences
- English, then Latin, then French: languages
- English, then Latin, no third: natural sciences
- Greek, (... I guess [biblical] Hebrew? but not sure, this is quite rare): humanities
- possibly more [rare] options.

Today, Spanish is another option equivalent to French (and French is getting less and less popular, mainly because it is considered harder to learn and less fancy, which is quite sad I think). Also, the first foreign language now starts at a younger age, I think.

In the details, everything is quite complicated, but in the end, everybody learns English


----------



## melibea56

En España tenemos como lengua oficial el español, pero hay algunas autonomias con un idioma propio, como el catalán, el gallego, el euskera.
En las ciudades donde se habla otro idioma, en la escuela se estudian los dos a la vez, hasta la edad de 7 años donde se incorpora el Francés y a partir de los 8 o 9 el Inglés.
Es decir, un niño nacido en Barcelona y que haya ido a una escuela concertada, cuando acabe el bachillerato y antes de entrar en la universidad debe saber hablar y escribir correctamente el catalán y el castellano, pero además deberá tener un nivel aceptable de Francés y de Inglés.
También hay colegios privados donde la enseñanza es en el idioma concreto en que están especializados (Colegio Alemán, Liceo Francés, etc.)


----------



## merquiades

In Ohio, in Junior School and High School we could choose Spanish, French, and Latin.  Two years in one language was a requirement for graduation, but you could have as many as 6 years.  You could also do two or three languages if you wanted, simultaneously or stopping one and then taking up another.  Spanish is by far the most popular nowadays, not only because it is becoming a defacto second language (more and more signs, documents, newspapers are written in that language) but also most people consider it the easiest language to learn.  In Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Illinois and New York I believe the system is quite similar.  Other states in the USA could be somewhat similar or quite different.  I've heard Spanish is an official language in New Mexico so emphasis on that language is greater, longer and instruction is probably better.

In France, students must study two foreign languages from junior school onwards.  English is the most popular, followed by German, Spanish, Italian, Latin.  Sometimes you can find some schools with Russian and ancient Greek too.  In recent years Spanish has begun to take over (it has probably already happened) second position from German.  Also, important to note that not all schools have all languages and in some cases one language or another is imposed.

In Spain, a lot of languages are studied.  English is most widely studied, followed by French and German.  Nowadays students learn two at school.  I cannot remember what year children start, but it is becoming younger, and there is talk of introducing English in elementary schools in many automous communities.  [Melibea has said children start with French at age 7 now and add English at age 8 or 9].   In Catalonia, Catalan is now used as the medium in all primary and secondary schools, so Spanish has become the second language (with one mandatory subject followed in Spanish).  There is also Galician in Galicia, Basque in the Basque region and Navarre, and Valencian-Catalan also in the Valencian region.  Bilingualism (national language and regional language) is the emphasis in the areas that have two languages. [Melibea has said that in Barcelona there are special private schools, Colegio francés, alemán teaching in French and German]

In all the countries I have mentioned I personally do not consider the students to be proficient in any foreign language at all by graduation, but that is the subject of another thread.


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## Porteño

When I was a child in the UK we studied Latin and French in primary school from age 7 and then continued through secondary school. Both were mandatory, although Latin could be dropped at age 13/14 if I remember correctly. In secondary school we had a fairly wide choice for a third language (optional) that included German, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, Italian, Russian and a few others I can't remember. Nowadays, Japanese seems to be quite popular. I would mention that these were private schools - I have no idea what the situation was or is in state schools. 

Here in Argentina, English is now mandatory from primary school up.


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## uas60

I think English tourists are becoming renowned for their lack of language skills!

In most schools in England nowadays, languages are not mandatory. If you do study a language, it is between grades 7-11 (very rarely in previous grades). Some schools do not even offer languages. Traditionally French is the common taught second language of schools, sometimes with German or Latin in the "better" schools. Spanish is creeping into some schools now as well.

In Wales, Welsh is often taught / offered.


----------



## Porteño

uas60 said:


> I think English tourists are becoming renowned for their lack of language skills!
> 
> In most schools in England nowadays, languages are not mandatory. If you do study a language, it is between grades 7-11 (very rarely in previous grades). Some schools do not even offer languages. Traditionally French is the common taught second language of schools, sometimes with German or Latin in the "better" schools. Spanish is creeping into some schools now as well.
> 
> In Wales, Welsh is often taught / offered.


 
Things have obviously got a lot worse rather than better. The British have never exactly excelled in their mastery of foreign languages due to their 'Imperial" right to speak and demand English wherever they go.


----------



## uas60

Porteño said:


> Things have obviously got a lot worse rather than better. The British have never exactly excelled in their mastery of foreign languages due to their 'Imperial" right to speak and demand English wherever they go.



Yes I think there's a certain complacency too lol... "Everyone speaks English therefore I don't need to speak their language" is the mentality a lot of people take unfortunately!


----------



## Porteño

uas60 said:


> Yes I think there's a certain complacency too lol... "Everyone speaks English therefore I don't need to speak their language" is the mentality a lot of people take unfortunately!


 
In this sense they may unfortunately be right, the pity being that they miss the wonderful opportunities that come from interacting with foreigners and understanding their culture.


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## Manolo_A

People thinks that the second languaje for us (spaniards) is the Catalan. But it isn't true, it is absolutely false. Only people that lives in Catalunia learns Catalan. The seconds languaje, the most studied, is English.


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## lux_

Mishe said:


> It's quite interesting to see how different second/foreign languages are important in different periods of history. In Slovenia, English is the absolute foreign (second) language today, but well until the second half of the 20th century it was German. Not to mention Serbo-Croatian between 1918-1990.  N*owadays however, German is still very important because of the economic power of German-speaking investors all over Central and Eastern Europe, especially in countries that were once part of former Austria-Hungary*. When I was in Czech republic in 2001, many more people could speak German than English.



Indeed. 
I'm currently in Czech Republic, and actually there seem to be many youngsters who don't master English. In the hotel I sojourned the first week, just were people are supposed to speak some international languages, only the minority of the people taking turns at the reception had a sufficient level of English, and two of them just couldn't say anything at all. At a young waitress, in the morning, I said "cold" while  pointing on the milk and she brought me a scalding cup of milk .





uas60 said:


> Yes I think there's a certain complacency too lol... "Everyone speaks English therefore I don't need to speak their language" is the mentality a lot of people take unfortunately!





Porteño said:


> Things have obviously got a lot worse rather than better. The British have never exactly excelled in their mastery of foreign languages due to their 'Imperial" right to speak and demand English wherever they go.




Well, the saying  "everybody speak English"  could be criticized. I guess many of us have had experiences of having problems to communicate abroad our national borders even though our English ranged from native to more than communicative.
And most of the people travel to very touristic destinations, where workers are supposed to speak many languages. If you move out of those main stream destinations, things will definitely not improve.

But it's not even this the main point that I personally think it's faulted in this kind of attitude.
Once I used to think "lucky English speakers who don't have to learn a foreign language". But now I totally changed my mind and turned it around.
It's _me_ (and the others who had to learn English) who speaks more than one language, that can change language depending on the place and the person you are talking to and has had all the advantages related to it (the pleasure to see yourself improving in that language, the open-mindedness that comes with the contact of another language and culture, the healthy mental activity related to the learning process and... Well, I'm in a language forums, I don't think I need to list all the positive things related to learn new languages.. ).


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## mgcrules

In Australia, there's no one language. In Year 7 we had to study Chinese, French, Italian and Japanese for one term each. However, in years 11 and 12 you can choose any language, though the ones that aren't as popular have to be done by correspondence.


----------



## lux_

mgcrules said:


> In Australia, there's no one language.* In Year 7 we had to study Chinese, French, Italian and Japanese for one term each.* However, in years 11 and 12 you can choose any language, though the ones that aren't as popular have to be done by correspondence.



Woow, some kind of survival training for special troops would be lighter and easier .


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## synnove

In California, it's really popular to learn Spanish (or to perfect your Spanish if you already speak it at home).  I know some smaller schools offer languages based on the availability of teachers to speak that language, which can sometimes result in students getting a year or two of the language before the teacher leaves, which is unfortunate.

In areas with significant numbers of speakers of a language, that language will often times be offered at nearby schools.  In Los Angeles, for example, students might be offered Spanish, Korean, Armenian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mandarin, Tagalog or Turkish.  Lots of schools also offer French, German or Russian.


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## brugluiz

In Brazil, when I was 9 I had got to learn just English. When I was 15 years-old I had got to learn Spanish and English at the same time.

But brazilian's schools do not offer conditions to learn languages fluently, just if you are very fond of it.


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## Beninjam

I live in the Flemish part of Belgium and traditionally French has been the first "second language" taught in schools. 
Recently a politician (Bart De Wever), vicorious in last year's elections, suggested that Flemings should stop learning French by way of taking revenge for 180 years of French oppression! 
What he forgets is that France is Belgium's largest trading partner, followed by Germany. 
Indeed until about 20 years ago I would have said that the first second language of a Belgian Fleming was French. But now I would say, what with the onslaught of Anglo-Saxon culture, English is the foreign language everybody aspires too. Performance on the other hand is modest, one of the reasons is that only Belgians are allowed to teach in secondary education, so that there is a self-perpetuating chain of instruction in awful English. 
One English teacher I know insisted on rhyming bowl with bowel and offered her pupils a bowel of soup.


----------



## germanictamoon

Here in India the second language to be taught in schools is compulsorily and obligatorily English. Thanks to a colonial history English is almost as ubiquitous as mother tongues in different parts of India. In my state,mother tongue is Hindustani.


----------



## Istriano

But, English serves as a lingua franca in India. When a person from Delhi goes to Chennai, s/he speaks English. When a person from Calcutta goes to Mumbai, s/he speaks English. Even a person from Bangalore will speak English in Kerala. (Tamils will be understood in Kerala if they speak in Tamil, but they will not understand Malayalam, but many Malayalis speak Tamil, so no problem).

I'd say that Kerala is the only place where more languages are learned, spoken, and enjoyed through music and cinema: Malayalam, English, Tamil and Hindi.
In most other Indian states, movies in languages other than the ones official in the state are not liked...


----------



## Copperknickers

The languages taught in the UK are, in order of people doing them:

French
German
Spanish
Mandarin
Latin
Italian
Gaelic for learners
Urdu/Hindi


----------



## Scherle

English because almost all schools and universities taught in English.  But We do have a choice of learning different languages depending on our lifestyle.  

Also, people on some part of our country are more fluent/conversant in English than in Tagalog/Filipino.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Copperknickers said:


> The languages taught in the UK are, in order of people doing them:
> 
> French
> German
> Spanish
> Mandarin
> Latin
> Italian
> Gaelic for learners
> Urdu/Hindi



The high position of Mandarin makes me wonder... why?


----------



## olaszinho

Angelo di fuoco said:


> The high position of Mandarin makes me wonder... why?


 

Really? What about China's new economic power? I suppose Chinese will be studied even more in the future.


----------



## Copperknickers

Angelo di fuoco said:


> The high position of Mandarin makes me wonder... why?



Because, its become trendy for private schools to get Mandarin taught, cause speaking it means big business in the world's second largest economy.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

Copperknickers said:


> Because, its become trendy for private schools to get Mandarin taught, cause speaking it means big business in the world's second largest economy.


 

But Mandarin is extremely hard to master unless you start to learn it at very early ages.

Here in Spain I know a private school that teaches Mandarin starting at the age of 11, and after two years of study, the boys can hardly recognize the sounds, the tones and a little amount of basic sentences, structures and vocabulary, not to mention the writing system because in two years they only learn oral Chinese.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> But Mandarin is extremely hard to master unless you start to learn it at very early ages.
> 
> Here in Spain I know a private school that teaches Mandarin starting at the age of 11, and after two years of study, the boys can hardly recognize the sounds, the tones and a little amount of basic sentences, structures and vocabulary, not to mention the writing system because in two years they only learn oral Chinese.



That's also my own experience in Germany (I say: my own, not: my childrens), although I'm rather gifted when it comes to learning languages (fluent in half a dozen European languages and with good reading comprehension in some other related ones).
Within a few months without ever taking classes I made better and more progress with written Portuguese than in 5 years of learning spoken and written Mandarin, in which I'm supposed to have reached B2 level.
I bet if I tried seriously learning Latin in a few months I would've achieved better results in the same time.

I think that to learn Chinese you've got to learn it from the 1st form on (or even start with spoken Chinese in kindergarten).


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> That's also my own experience in Germany (I say: my own, not: my childrens), although I'm rather gifted when it comes to learning languages (fluent in half a dozen European languages and with good reading comprehension in some other related ones).
> Within a few months without ever taking classes I made better and more progress with written Portuguese than in 5 years of learning spoken and written Mandarin, in which I'm supposed to have reached B2 level.
> I bet if I tried seriously learning Latin in a few months I would've achieved better results in the same time.
> 
> I think that to learn Chinese you've got to learn it from the 1st form on (or even start with spoken Chinese in kindergarten).



Angelo, I agree with you. The more languages you learn the easier it is, especially if they are related. The first time I tried to learn Russian, I gave up because it seemed impossible. Then I tried again years later and it was still hard but a bit easier.  Now it seems feasible.
If Mandarin is to become the lst language of choice, speakers of European languages have to tackle it early on.


----------



## Beninjam

Does anybody remember the fad for Japanese a few years ago? 
I personally think that UK people would find more advantageous to speak the languages of their main trading partners, in the UK's case the languages of the EU.


----------



## English Speaker

Nooo, It is not possible, English everywhere!!! In Mexico the only language taught as a second language is English but with a poor level. Just some public schools teach English well, but if you want to learn English you have to sign in a private schools where you have to pay weekly and sometimes they are not efficient. Here in Mexico, we don't have that varieties to choose in public schools just English, English....


----------



## إسكندراني

In the Arab world the second language varies, and usually has something to do with colonial history or original languages. The educational system also varies widely in style and quality.

In the Maghreb region it's usually Arabic then French, except Libya which only taught Arabic under gaddafi - though quite a few people still speak some Italian there. In quite a few areas they teach Berber (in Arabic, Original or Latin script depending on the area), and in Northern Morocco students  sometimes study Spanish. In Chad French is taught as a first language, though people speak Arabic day-to-day.

In Egypt it's primarily Arabic then English or French (often both), and to a lesser extent Italian and German. At university, it's not uncommon to study Hebrew or Ancient Egyptian. I also think that they teach some Nubian in the far south (but I'm not sure since I'm from the far north).

In Sudan, English used to be the second official language (this is no longer the case after the split). I don't believe original languages and dialects (the rutana) were ever taught.

In the Horn of Africa it's Somali then  English or Arabic or Italian. In Djibouti they have French then Arabic or Afar or Somali.

In Palestine it's Arabic but most people speak some Hebrew too.

In Lebanon it's Arabic and French. English more recently would come on top of those two.

In Jordan it's Arabic then English, the same goes for all the Gulf countries. I don't think Yemenis learn a second language usually. Nor have I ever noticed an Arab country teaching Farsi, but the Arabs in Iran learn only in Farsi. 
In the richer Gulf countries, I've noticed people occasionally pick up some Hindi/Urdu or Tagalog or Malay - but it's basic-level and never taught in school. However, I did meet some Saudi students who could speak Korean and Japanese, and said they learn them in school - which I found interesting!

In Iraq it was only ever Arabic as far as I know. In the north they teach Kurdish and Arabic together and people there are bilingual, some trilingual in Turkmen (which isn't taught).

In Syria it's Arabic, then any of French, English, Turkish, Russian (or, of course, nothing). There is a sizeable Kurdish region but teaching it is banned (hopefully that'll change!).

So the most common second languages are English in the east and French in the west, with quite a few others intermingled.


----------



## Miguelillo 87

English Speaker said:


> we don't have that varieties to choose in public schools just English, English....



That's not true, mi neighborhoods studied at a public school and they were taught French...I also note a lot of people which French was its second language at school


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## إسكندراني

إسكندراني said:


> Nor have I ever noticed an Arab country teaching Farsi, but the Arabs in Iran learn only in Farsi.


Sharjah's satellite TV channel seems to be broadcasting completely in persian tonight (early morning there), so I guess it's not as unusual as I thought!


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## papa_pitufo

That's also the problem here. So many years studying a language at school and highschool for nothing, cause nobody learn to really speak it. That's a big difference with other countries like Sweden, Finland or Denmark. I studied many years English and I didn't learn, I had to study myself after in order to improve it. I studied for two years French at highschool and I did learn anything neither. A proprosito ho vissuto a Firenze per mezzo anno e mi sono innamorato della vostra lingua 





effeundici said:


> In Italian school 2 w foreign languages are mandatory. English of course, then you can choose between French, German or Spanish.
> 
> But I'm still wondering why my son has to spend 2 hours a week studying German when I'mpretty sure he will end up with speaking neither fluent English nor fluent German.
> 
> I'd definitely prefer he would concentrate his effort on English only.


----------



## ESustad

In the US, Spanish is the most popular second language.  At my public high school, French and German were the other options for foreign language, although very few students took any of them seriously.  Mandarin is increasing in popularity recently, although I don't see it supplanting Spanish.


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## jasio

ESustad said:


> In the US, Spanish is the most popular second language.  At my public high school, French and German were the other options for foreign language, although very few students took any of them seriously.  Mandarin is increasing in popularity recently, although I don't see it supplanting Spanish.



In Poland for years we didn't have much choice:  the first foreign language had to be Russian starting in primary school, through secondary school through to university level. Most people didn't want to learn it though, so Russian literacy was minimal. Second language very much depended on the region: in regions where there was tradition to speak German, people often learned German, in other areas if they selected anything, it most often was English. Learning foreign languages was not very popular though*), and the teaching levels were not impressive either, so only a small percentage of population could effectively communicate. Nowadays it's much better, although  there is still a lot of room for improvement, especially regarding teaching quality.

*) I recalled an old joke: 
Two local guys were walking down the street. Suddenly, a car with foreign plates stopped nearby, the driver opened the window and started asking something in a foreign language. The guys on the pavement looked at each other and again at a driver, clearly not understanding a word. So the driver asked:

- "Do you speak English"?
The guys looked at each other and shrugged their shoulders

- "Sprechen Sie Deutsch?"
Same reaction

- "Вы говорите по-русски?"
Still the same. 

- "Parlez-vous français?"
No reaction

- "Parlate italiano?"
The same.

The foreigner finally gave up, and the car moved it's way. Then one of the guys still standing on the pavement said to the other:
- "You know, it could be good to speak a foreign language..."
- "What for?" - said the other - "That guy spoke five of them, and it didn't help him at all".


----------



## NewtonCircus

Beninjam said:


> What he forgets is that France is Belgium's largest trading partner, followed by Germany.


Factually incorrect. Germany has been the most important trading partner for as long as I can remember and this isn't going to change anytime soon.  
According to your logic schools in Belgium should introduce German as second language.

- 2013
1) Germany 
2) France
3) The Netherlands

- 2012
1) Germany 
2) The Netherlands
3) France



Beninjam said:


> Performance on the other hand is modest, one of the reasons is that only Belgians are allowed to teach in secondary education, so that there is a self-perpetuating chain of instruction in awful English.
> One English teacher I know insisted on rhyming bowl with bowel and offered her pupils a bowel of soup.


I agree. Red tape is the reason and I don't expect change anytime soon. On a positive note we already grasp that there is such a thing as un-dubbed TV. most of our neighbours havent't found out that yet .  



Beninjam said:


> Recently a politician (Bart De Wever), vicorious in last year's elections, suggested that Flemings should stop learning French by way of taking revenge for 180 years of French oppression!


Are politicians in the UK taken at face value whenever they say something? The reason for this choice is purely pragmatic, no different from why Germany or The Netherlands generally use English as second language. 



Beninjam said:


> Traditionally French has been the first "second language" taught in schools.


Depends on the school and time period. Mine was English. French as second language in Flanders was definitely not universal.


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## papa_pitufo

ESustad said:


> In the US, Spanish is the most popular second language.  At my public high school, French and German were the other options for foreign language, although very few students took any of them seriously.  Mandarin is increasing in popularity recently, although I don't see it supplanting Spanish.



Spanish it's a great language


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## papa_pitufo

In spain traditionally (40 years ago) the second language studied was French


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## jasio

NewtonCircus said:


> Depends on the school and time period. Mine was English. French as second language in Flanders was definitely not universal.



This reminded me my first visit to Flanders a looong time ago. A local guy, who was a sort of my guide, told me that his children were learning English, German and French at school (I don't remember the order though  ). When I expressed my surprise, he said that he had had it more diffucult: on top of those three, he had also had to learn Spanish.


----------



## 경상남도로 오이소

In South Korea, there has been shift in the choice of second foreign languages taught in high school. While English has been mandatory in the last couple of decades, students usually get to choose some other language(s) in their first year of high school.

In the 70's and 80's it was either German or French which was practically the only languages that was offered, but sometime during the 90's Chinese and Japanese gained popularity and as of now, either of those two languages is clearly the first choice among students. German and French as second languages have been pretty much edged out by now.


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## gary17

In Taiwan, English has always been the major (if not only) foreign language taught from kindergarten to high school. Due to Taiwan's close relations with Japan, Japanese is the second most common foreign language and it is especially popular among the younger generation. Spanish, German and French courses are commonly offered in university, but most are just introductory ones.
By the way, Mandarin Chinese is our official language, but Taiwanese is spoken widely by the 30+ generation(because of the complicated history). So one may argue that Taiwanese people have two native languages.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

gary17 said:


> By the way, Mandarin Chinese is our official language, but Taiwanese is spoken widely by the 30+ generation(because of the complicated history). So one may argue that Taiwanese people have two native languages.



Is there a big difference  between Mandarin and Taiwanese?


----------



## merquiades

gary17 said:


> By the way, Mandarin Chinese is our official language, but _Taiwanese is spoken widely by the 30+ generation_(because of the complicated history). So one may argue that Taiwanese people have two native languages.



Are you implying that younger people in Taiwan know Mandarin but not Taiwanese?


----------



## gary17

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Is there a big difference between Mandarin and Taiwanese?


There is a big difference. Taiwanese is very much the same as Min Nan. (However, there is a noted existence of Japanese words in Taiwanese because Taiwan was colonized by Japan during the first half of the 20th century.) During the Qing Dynasty, the immigrants from the Fujan province brought Min Nan to Taiwan, and it remained the major language until ROC came to Taiwan and established Mandarin as the official language. Taiwanese (Min Nan) has eight intonations and the phonetic system is much more complicated. One who only speaks Mandarin will not be able to understand Taiwanese, just like he won't understand a single word of Cantonese!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Nan


----------



## gary17

merquiades said:


> Are you implying that younger people in Taiwan know Mandarin but not Taiwanese?


Well, the younger people vary in their proficiency in Taiwanese. It depends on what language their parents use day to day, whether they have close relations with their grandparents, and where they reside. The southern part of Taiwan uses Taiwanese more commonly than the north, so younger people from southern Taiwan speak better Taiwanese but that's not always the case. I should also note that in some regions, Hakka is the major language. 

It is completely correct to say younger people know Mandarin better than Taiwanese. After all, Mandarin is taught at all school levels while the language Taiwanese has little (if there's any) importance in the education. We learn Taiwanese from the elder generation.


----------



## Sepia

@Originally Posted by *effeundici* 


But I'm still wondering why my son has to spend 2 hours a week studying German when I'mpretty sure he will end up with speaking neither fluent English nor fluent German.


If he spends only two hours a week he is not very likely to become fluent in those two languages.
Does anyone expect that?

And if you keep telling him all the things he cannot learn I am sure he will never learn them.


----------



## ESustad

Spanish is pretty dominant in US second-language learning.  There is increasing interest in Mandarin (my nephew is being educated in a Mandarin-immersion school), but Spanish is still the overwhelming preference.  I was a weirdo, and studied German and French during my primary education in the 80s.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

ESustad said:


> Spanish is pretty dominant in US second-language learning.  There is increasing interest in Mandarin (my nephew is being educated in a Mandrin-immersion school), but Spanish is still the overwhelming preference.  I was a weirdo, and studied German and French during my primary education in the 80s.



Has French been blown totally out of the water then? I read somewhere that there are bilingual French/English schools springing up in parts of Brooklyn.


----------



## merquiades

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Has French been blown totally out of the water then? I read somewhere that there are bilingual French/English schools springing up in parts of Brooklyn.



No, most schools still have French, even Latin, but Spanish is 10x more popular.  Often students take it because they believe it is easy as pie.  All you do is add -o to everything.  Yo learno el españolo.


----------



## ESustad

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Has French been blown totally out of the water then? I read somewhere that there are bilingual French/English schools springing up in parts of Brooklyn.



Spanish, German, and French were the predominant second-language options when I was educated (I'm just under 40, from Minnesota).  French was the artsy one; Spanish the hipster choice; German the brainy language.  I think Mandarin is pretty common now in the States too.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

merquiades said:


> No, most schools still have French, even Latin, but Spanish is 10x more popular.  *Often students take it because they believe it is easy as pie*.  All you do is add -o to everything.  Yo learno el españolo.



The same is true in Ireland where Spanish is gaining rapidly at the expenseof French. The fact is, though, that Spanish is a difficult language to learn.


----------



## ESustad

Pedro y La Torre said:


> The same is true in Ireland where Spanish is gaining rapidly at the expenseof French. The fact is, though, that Spanish is a difficult language to learn.



You think?  I've studied a few languages, and none were easier than Spanish.  French is much more difficult, German even more so, and languages like Arabic or Korean or Hebrew are far, far harder to pick up for Anglophones.


----------



## merquiades

ESustad said:


> You think?  I've studied a few languages, and none were easier than Spanish.  French is much more difficult, German even more so, and languages like Arabic or Korean or Hebrew are far, far harder to pick up for Anglophones.



Really?  I think Spanish is really hard, except for maybe spelling and pronunciation.  All the indicative and subjunctive verb forms (14 tenses) and their required uses and subtle nuances, lots of irregular forms, 2 verbs to be, prepositions, and the vocabulary is often quite different.  I wouldn't choose Spanish to be the easiest.  Not insurmountable but not really comfortable for a student looking for an easy A to fulfill a pesky language requirement. 

French is easier in grammar and has more cognate forms with English but it is true that the spelling and pronunciation are pretty chaotic.  I think I'd choose Italian as a compromise of the easiness of both.  But of course Spanish is easier than Irish Gaelic.


----------



## Wolverine9

It's unfortunate that English has become quite distant from the other Germanic languages.  Otherwise, they would be the easiest to learn for English speakers.


----------



## Nino83

merquiades said:


> I think I'd choose Italian as a compromise of the easiness of both.



Italian has almost 170 irregular verbs (vs. almost 20 of Spanish) and almost 500 -isc verbs. Spanish/Portuguese verbal conjugation is very much regular.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Wolverine9 said:


> It's unfortunate that English has become quite distant from the other Germanic languages.  Otherwise, they would be the easiest to learn for English speakers.



Afrikaans is not that difficult for English-speakers to learn, or vice-versa. The basics are very close. Or so I'm told.


----------



## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> Italian has almost 170 irregular verbs (vs. almost 20 of Spanish) and almost 500 -isc verbs. Spanish/Portuguese verbal conjugation is very much regular.



That many irregular verbs?  I never noticed.  Spanish has a lot, especially in the preterite.  A lot of verb tenses have grown archaic in Italian.  
My impression is it has an easier feel than French or Spanish.


----------



## Nino83

merquiades said:


> That many irregular verbs?



Yes. Almost 170 verbs of the second conjugation have an irregular preterite ("passato remoto", see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_irregolari_italiani). 

For example: 
romper - rompo - rompí vs. rompere - rompo - *ruppi* 
beber - bebo - bebí vs. bere - bevo - *bevvi*
asentar - asiento - asenté vs. sedere - siedo - *sedei/**sedetti*
escoger - escojo - escogí vs. scegliere -scelgo - *scelsi*

About -isc verbs (80-85% of the verbs in -ire, see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_incoativi)
adquirir - adquiero - adquirí vs. acquisire - acquis*isc*o - acquisii 





merquiades said:


> I never noticed.



It's normal if you don't use the "passato remoto" (but you'll note the -isc suffix, which is added in the present tense of both indicative and subjunctive mood).


----------



## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> Yes. Almost 170 verbs of the second conjugation have an irregular preterite ("passato remoto", see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_irregolari_italiani).
> 
> For example:
> romper - rompo - rompí vs. rompere - rompo - *ruppi*
> beber - bebo - bebí vs. bere - bevo - *bevvi*
> asentar - asiento - asenté vs. sedere - siedo - *sedei/**sedetti*
> escoger - escojo - escogí vs. scegliere -scelgo - *scelsi*
> 
> About -isc verbs (80-85% of the verbs in -ire, see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_incoativi)
> adquirir - adquiero - adquirí vs. acquisire - acquis*isc*o - acquisii
> 
> It's normal if you don't use the "passato remoto" (but you'll note the -isc suffix, which is added in the present tense of both indicative and subjunctive mood).



The textbook we used for Italian in high school (was called Prego!) didn't even teach "passato remoto", it was as if it didn't exist. Also the -ire forms with -isc increments were taught as if they were "the" regular conjugation and the other ones were irregular.


----------



## Nino83

merquiades said:


> The textbook we used for Italian in high school (was called Prego!) didn't even teach "passato remoto", it was as if it didn't exist.



But this tense is important in Italian (it's used in writings, in television news and also in informal speech in Central and Southern Italy). 



merquiades said:


> Also the -ire forms with -isc increments were taught as if they were "the" regular conjugation and the other ones were irregular.



This is a good method, seeing that there are few verbs (of the third conjugation) that don't take it.


----------



## ESustad

merquiades said:


> The textbook we used for Italian in high school (was called Prego!) didn't even teach "passato remoto", it was as if it didn't exist. Also the -ire forms with -isc increments were taught as if they were "the" regular conjugation and the other ones were irregular.



Huh.  We used a textbook called "Prego!", early 90s, and I still have trouble with passato remoto.  We should sue the publisher.  I have billions in damages from not being able to marry an Italian princess, due to my buffoonish Italian.


----------



## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> But this tense is important in Italian (it's used in writings, in television news and also in informal speech in Central and Southern Italy).



I remember there was a paragraph saying that _passato remoto_ had been completely overtaken by _passato remoto_ in Modern Italian and since it was archaic and irregular they would not be teaching it in that manual.

Eustad, you're the lawyer.  Maybe we should make a class action suit against Prego! for robbing us of the _Passato Remoto_.


----------



## merquiades

ESustad said:


> Huh.  We used a textbook called "Prego!", early 90s, and I still have trouble with passato remoto.  We should sue the publisher.  I have billions in damages from not being able to marry an Italian princess, due to my buffoonish Italian.



Yes, that must have been the textbook used throughout North America in the 90's.


----------



## Nino83

merquiades said:


> I remember there was a paragraph saying that _passato remoto_ had been completely overtaken by _passato remoto_ in Modern Italian and since it was archaic and irregular they would not be teaching it in that manual.



_Passato prossimo_ overtook _passato remoto_ in informal speech in Northern Italy (because in the Gallo-Romance languages it is not used) but in the rest of the country it is normal to use it (it's not like in French). 

So, you can take the publisher to court.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Really?  I think Spanish is really hard, except for maybe spelling and pronunciation.  All the indicative and subjunctive verb forms (14 tenses) and their required uses and subtle nuances, lots of irregular forms, 2 verbs to be, prepositions, and the vocabulary is often quite different.  I wouldn't choose Spanish to be the easiest.  Not insurmountable but not really comfortable for a student looking for an easy A to fulfill a pesky language requirement.
> 
> French is easier in grammar and has more cognate forms with English but it is true that the spelling and pronunciation are pretty chaotic.  I think I'd choose Italian as a compromise of the easiness of both.  But of course Spanish is easier than Irish Gaelic.



While I agree that, in Spanish, ser/estar is complicated on all levels and subjunctive usage is quite tricky on an advanced level (the _consecutio temporum_ is really easy, I think), I think Spanish has done a good job in getting rid of irregular verbal forms (past participles, pretérito indefinido forms). The basics are rather easy. The prepositions are really consistent and a piece of cake compared to French, Italian and especially Catalan (oh, those pronouns - they are a real nightmare, especially the combinations), except perhaps some finer points in the personal accusative.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Nino83 said:


> Yes. Almost 170 verbs of the second conjugation have an irregular preterite ("passato remoto", see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_irregolari_italiani).
> 
> For example:
> romper - rompo - rompí vs. rompere - rompo - *ruppi*
> beber - bebo - bebí vs. bere - bevo - *bevvi*
> asentar - asiento - asenté vs. sedere - siedo - *sedei/**sedetti*
> escoger - escojo - escogí vs. scegliere -scelgo - *scelsi*
> 
> About -isc verbs (80-85% of the verbs in -ire, see here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbi_incoativi)
> adquirir - adquiero - adquirí vs. acquisire - acquis*isc*o - acquisii
> 
> It's normal if you don't use the "passato remoto" (but you'll note the -isc suffix, which is added in the present tense of both indicative and subjunctive mood).



I don't really understand why you list the passato remoto of sedere as irregular (by the way, which form is preferred in use, is it the -tt- form?), but not the present.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Nino83 said:


> _Passato prossimo_ overtook _passato remoto_ in informal speech in Northern Italy (because in the Gallo-Romance languages it is not used) but in the rest of the country it is normal to use it (it's not like in French).
> 
> So, you can take the publisher to court.



The problem is the teachers even as far "South" as Emilia Romagna pronounce passato remoto dead and thus contribute to the tempicide...


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> That many irregular verbs?  I never noticed.  Spanish has a lot, especially in the preterite.  A lot of verb tenses have grown archaic in Italian.
> My impression is it has an easier feel than French or Spanish.



You know, the real difficulty for me were not the irregular passato remoto forms _per sé_, but the difference between passato remoto and passato prossimo, since there's no prevalence of either, like in Spanish or French.


----------



## merquiades

That textbook is in its eighth edition now and is still used in schools.  It says in the bio that the author is from Genoa, maybe that is why she decided to eliminate it.


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> You know, the real difficulty for me were not the irregular passato remoto forms _per sé_, but the difference between passato remoto and passato prossimo, since there's no prevalence of either, like in Spanish or French.



Were I inclined to start using Passato remoto I'd probably apply Spanish rules of pretérito perfecto and indefinido to Italian.  Something makes me think it was originally like that.  What is weird also in Italian is the irregular forms are only in a few persons and the other forms have regular conjugation.  Rompesti, ruppe, rompimmo, ruppero...


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

My teacher at varsity was from Apulia and she spent a lot of time teaching us correct usage of passato remoto and imbuing us with the notion that correct Italian has Tuscan flavour...


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> While I agree that, in Spanish, ser/estar is complicated on all levels and subjunctive usage is quite tricky on an advanced level (the _consecutio temporum_ is really easy, I think), I think Spanish has done a good job in getting rid of irregular verbal forms (past participles, pretérito indefinido forms). The basics are rather easy. The prepositions are really consistent and a piece of cake compared to French, Italian and especially Catalan (oh, those pronouns - they are a real nightmare, especially the combinations), except perhaps some finer points in the personal accusative.



Don't forget the differences between _por_ and _para_.  It takes time, study and thought to master those.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Were I inclined to start using Passato remoto I'd probably apply Spanish rules of pretérito perfecto and indefinido to Italian.  Something makes me think it was originally like that.  What is weird also in Italian is the irregular forms are only in a few persons and the other forms have regular conjugation.  Rompesti, ruppe, rompimmo, ruppero...



It's rompEmmo: unlike in present tense, in passato remoto you can recognise to which conjugation pattern the verb belongs.
The rule is pretty clear: one pattern for the 1st singular, 3rd singular & plural irregular, another (mostly regular) for the other three. By the way, essere obeys the same pattern, but it's completely irregular. Avere has, for the 1st person plural both regular avemmo and the extremely rare ebbimo.


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> My teacher at varsity was from Apulia and she spent a lot of time teaching us correct usage of passato remoto and imbuing us with the notion that correct Italian has Tuscan flavour...



That's not politically correct anymore.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Don't forget the differences between _por_ and _para_.  It takes time, study and thought to master those.



Yes, forgot them. However, I don't remember having particular difficulties with them. Time and study, no, but yes to thought.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> That's not politically correct anymore.



I'm not good at political correctness and I strongly oppose the milanisation of Italian.


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:
			
		

> Yes, forgot them. However, I don't remember having particular difficulties with them. Time and study, no, but yes to thought.


Yes, but from the point of view of someone looking for an easy language, that's not going to do it for them.


Angelo di fuoco said:


> It's rompEmmo: unlike in present tense, in passato remoto you can recognise to which conjugation pattern the verb belongs.
> The rule is pretty clear: one pattern for the 1st singular, 3rd singular & plural irregular, another (mostly regular) for the other three. By the way, essere obeys the same pattern, but it's completely irregular. Avere has, for the 1st person plural both regular avemmo and the extremely rare ebbimo.


That makes total sense.  I don't see how _essere_
is regular though. 


			
				Angelo di fuoco said:
			
		

> I'm not good at political correctness and I strongly oppose the milanisation of Italian.


 Ma Milano è una bella città! Cos'hai contro lei? Che t'ha fatto di male?
Italian could easily become a multi-centered language with different norms.


----------



## Nino83

merquiades said:


> Italian could easily become a multi-centered language with different norms.



Lol! 



Angelo di fuoco said:


> I don't really understand why you list the passato remoto of sedere as irregular (by the way, which form is preferred in use, is it the -tt- form?), but not the present.



 

The -tt- forms are the most usual (especially for the 3rd singular/plural). 



merquiades said:


> Don't forget the differences between _por_ and _para_. It takes time, study and thought to master those.



Much simpler than, for example, _ne/ci_ (there is a recent topic in SI about the usage of these pronouns with verbs, that was opened by a Spanish speaker).


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Mbè, ho fatto uno sbaglio: è fUi, fU, fUmmo, fUrono e solo fOsti, fOste. Se fosse "regolare" sarebbe *fOmmo.

Non ho niente contro Milano, non essendoci mai stato, ma non mi piace l'italiano che vi parlano: troppe vocali chiuse (dicono), niente passato remoto. Comunque i manuali d'italiano per stranieri sogliono orientarsi verso un italiano di matrice settentrionale/milanese.


----------



## Nino83

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Comunque i manuali d'italiano per stranieri sogliono orientarsi verso un italiano di matrice settentrionale/milanese.



E sbagliano, visto che prevale nettamente la versione romana nei media (che poi è simile a quella toscana).


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

Il mio professore di spagnolo, che prima di venire alla mia scuola era vissuto sei anni a Roma, mi disse che a Roma non avevo usato attivamente il passato remoto.


----------



## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Non ho niente contro Milano, non essendoci mai stato, ma non mi piace l'italiano che vi parlano: troppe vocali chiuse (dicono), niente passato remoto. Comunque i manuali d'italiano per stranieri sogliono orientarsi verso un italiano di matrice settentrionale/milanese.


 Ed io credevo che tutte le vocali fossono aperte a Milano. Anche hanno l'erre moscia.
Non mi pare che i professori insegnino il dialetto romano agli stranieri.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Avrei confuso col torinese?


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## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Ed io credevo che tutte le vocali *fossono fossero aperte a Milano



http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/italiano-di-milano_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Avrei confuso col torinese?



Forse hai ragione. Non lo so. Ho letto che no distingono fra le vocal aperte e quelle chiuse e non pronunciano le consonanti doppie.


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## Nino83

A Milano mi sembra che dicano "perch*è*". 
Inoltre c'è una tendenza (comune alle lingue gallo-romanze) di aprire le vocali toniche in sillaba chiusa (merquiades will remember a discussion about mid-open/closed vowels opposition in French). 
Cioè, dicono "còrto" (aperta) invece di "córto" (chiusa, forma standard) e "fóto" (chiusa) al posto di "fòto" (aperta, standard).


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## ESustad

merquiades said:


> Don't forget the differences between _por_ and _para_.  It takes time, study and thought to master those.



That distinction is far, far, more difficult than the one between ser and estar.  French prepositions are even worse - I've been speaking French for my entire life, and still mess up prepositions.


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## merquiades

ESustad said:


> That distinction is far, far, more difficult than the one between ser and estar.  French prepositions are even worse - I've been speaking French for my entire life, and still mess up prepositions.



It does require a lot of abstract thought which is why I don't think the easy A requirement filling crowd would appreciate it.

What prepositions do you mess up in French?  This language seems logical to me, unless your talking about the "au Portugal" "en Espagne" "à Cuba" issue in which case it's mechanical.


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## Dymn

Here in Catalonia Catalan, Spanish and English (which is taught from 5 years old more or less) are mandatory. Many schools offer French and German during secondary education, but they are always optional. From next year Arabic will be also available, I think.


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## Angelo di fuoco

I would expect Chinese rather than Arabic in Spain, but who knows..


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## elirlandes

My children are now learning Chinese (Mandarin) in school (primary and secondary) in Spain... Also, English and a choice of French or German.


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> I would expect Chinese rather than Arabic in Spain, but who knows..



Why?  Arabic is just across the Mediterranean.


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## Angelo di fuoco

When I was in Madrid I saw lots of Chinese people there, but pretty few Arabs. Not so many Chinese people in Barcelona, but my Catalan teacher told me the numbers were growing.


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> When I was in Madrid I saw lots of Chinese people there, but pretty few Arabs. Not so many Chinese people in Barcelona, but my Catalan teacher told me the numbers were growing.


  I think there might be more North Africans everywhere, they're just hidden.  Yes, in Madrid there were tons of Asians but the ones I came into contact with were Koreans.  They had a weird religion (modern sect type) and had built a huge temple between Madrid and Segovia.  They had small hardware shops so I guess learning Korean as a second language could help too.


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## Angelo di fuoco

For me, the presence of North Africans is rather a French than a Spanish phenomenon, but I might be wrong.


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## merquiades

Angelo di fuoco said:


> For me, the presence of North Africans is rather a French than a Spanish phenomenon, but I might be wrong.



Algerians/Tunisians yes, but I think Spain leads in Moroccans.

Edit:  Actually Spain is third for Moroccans
 France	1,514,000
 Israel	800,000
 Spain	792,080
 Italy	        513,374

Second for Algeria, but most want to be in France apparently
France	3 000 000
Espagne	300 000
G. B.         200 000

Tunisians don't care at all for Spain.  It's 10th with only 3,271 Tunisians
France	668 668
Italie 	189 092
Allemagne	86 601

Edit:  Just to be complete, Spain is 25th place for Chinese with 145,245
US is 3rd with 3,794,000.  Thailand has more than 9 million, Malaysia almost 7 million
Perú in 6th place with 1.3 million is surprising


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## Nino83

In Italy:



> Italian 55,818,099
> Romanian 997,000
> North African 646,624
> Albanian 466,684
> Asian (non-Chinese) 499,013
> Sub-Saharan Africa 324,917
> Latin American 285,169
> Chinese 188,352
> Ukrainian 153,998
> Other 782,549



I agree with merquiades, there are more North Africans than Chinese.


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## Kaxgufen

A second language is not a thing you can choose so happily...
As for example if Guarani, Yiddish or Quechua is usually spoken at home, the kid will learn that first;  and if they live in Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina... your "second" language will be Portuguese or Spanish (normally learnt "in the street").

The age you go to school you will surely choose English in the same way you choose Computers (because everybody does so).

...and English WON'T be your second language, OK?


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## jasio

Kaxgufen said:


> A second language is not a thing you can choose so happily...
> As for example if Guarani, Yiddish or Quechua is usually spoken at home, the kid will learn that first;  and if they live in Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina... your "second" language will be Portuguese or Spanish (normally learnt "in the street").
> 
> The age you go to school you will surely choose English in the same way you choose Computers (because everybody does so).
> 
> ...and English WON'T be your second language, OK?



Good point. 
The similar phenomenon was also present in a non-existing any more Polish-Rutenian (Ukrainian) society in the area which is nowadays in West Ukraine. People used to learn the first language of the pair at homes, from their parents, and the other - on the street from neighbours and other kids. Most of the population was effectively bi-lingual, and if they gave a precedence to one of the languages, it was probably more for emotional reason, to give a precedence to their 'own' language rather than a mean to measure proficiency.


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## Kaxgufen

merquiades said:


> Why?  Arabic is just across the Mediterranean.



And into their history...


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## Kaxgufen

jasio said:


> Good point.
> The similar phenomenon was also present in a non-existing any more Polish-Rutenian (Ukrainian) society in the area which is nowadays in West Ukraine. People used to learn the first language of the pair at homes, from their parents, and the other - on the street from neighbours and other kids. Most of the population was effectively bi-lingual, and if they gave a precedence to one of the languages, it was probably more for emotional reason, to give a precedence to their 'own' language rather than a mean to measure proficiency.



Proficiency!
It is normally said that Mandarin Chinese is the most spoken lnguage in the world (though not so much widespread) the second is Spanish and the third is English.
English is said to win when it comes to a second language choice. But I do not believe in the accuracy of the statistics. Proficiency in English is not tested, many people have NO second language at all.


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## rusita preciosa

Kaxgufen said:


> As for example if Guarani, *Yiddish* or Quechua is usually spoken at home, the kid will learn that first; and if they live in Brazil, Paraguay, Argentina... your "second" language will be Portuguese or Spanish (normally learnt "in the street").



I'm just curious - Guarani is a native people of Sounth America - how did it happen that they speak Yiddish?? I did look them up on Wiki, but it does not provide any info on the Yiddish connection.


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## Kaxgufen

rusita preciosa said:


> I'm just curious - Guarani is a native people of Sounth America - how did it happen that they speak Yiddish?? I did look them up on Wiki, but it does not provide any info on the Yiddish connection.



Guarani, Yiddish and Quechua are the names of three languages. Of course there is a people called guarani but this is not  the sense of the word.


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## rusita preciosa

Kaxgufen said:


> Guarani, Yiddish and Quechua are the names of three languages. Of course there is a people called guarani but this is not the sense of the word.


Oh got it, sorry. I undestood it as the Guarani speak Yiddish and Quechua


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## bearded

merquiades said:


> Ed io credevo che tutte le vocali fossono aperte a Milano.


La situazione non è così semplice.  A Milano - come in quasi tutto il Nord Italia - sono moltissime le e pronunciate chiuse (che dovrebbero essere aperte secondo lo standard). Esempi: béne, sémpre, probléma... E naturalmente viceversa (aperte anziché chiuse): tètto, bagnètto, sicurèzza, quèsto.  L'esempio classico della pronuncia milanese - riguardo alle e - è ''sémpre strètto'' invece dello standard ''sèmpre strétto''.  Anche con le o ci sono analoghe imprecisioni: sògno, corridòio, quattòrdici....


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## Nino83

bearded man said:


> La situazione non è così semplice.  A Milano - come in quasi tutto il Nord Italia - sono moltissime le e pronunciate chiuse (che dovrebbero essere aperte secondo lo standard). Esempi: béne, sémpre, probléma... E naturalmente viceversa (aperte anziché chiuse): tètto, bagnètto, sicurèzza, quèsto.



Secondo Canepari, a Milano la tendenza è quella di aprire le vocali in sillaba chiusa e, viceversa, di chiuderle in sillaba aperta o chiusa da nasale. 
In linea generale, questa situazione è tipica di tutta la zona Gallo-Italica (a nord della linea La Spezia-Rimini) salvo il Piemonte occidentale (Torino) e la Liguria (dove c'è solo un timbro medio per "e" ed "o").


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## bearded

Nino83 said:


> Secondo Canepari, a Milano la tendenza è quella di aprire le vocali in sillaba chiusa e, viceversa, di chiuderle in sillaba aperta o chiusa da nasale.
> In linea generale, questa situazione è tipica di tutta la zona Gallo-Italica (a nord della linea La Spezia-Rimini) salvo il Piemonte occidentale (Torino) e la Liguria (dove c'è solo un timbro medio per "e" ed "o").


Però a Bologna, dove il dialetto è gallo-italico, si dice tétto, bagnétto, quésto...(io sono bolognese).


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## Kaxgufen

Nino83 said:


> Secondo Canepari, a Milano la tendenza è quella di aprire le vocali in sillaba chiusa e, viceversa, di chiuderle in sillaba aperta o chiusa da nasale.
> In linea generale, questa situazione è tipica di tutta la zona Gallo-Italica (a nord della linea La Spezia-Rimini) salvo il Piemonte occidentale (Torino) e la Liguria (dove c'è solo un timbro medio per "e" ed "o").



Ricordo aver ascoltato a Bergamo un polizotto che parlava con la cadenza di un messicano...non so si quello sarebbe normale...


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## Nino83

bearded man said:


> Però a Bologna, dove il dialetto è gallo-italico, si dice tétto, bagnétto, quésto...(io sono bolognese).



E come si pronunciano a Bologna "sécco", "frésco", "fréddo", "stélla", "créscere", "légge" (lex), "strétto" e, riguardo alla "o", "córto", "bócca", "mósca", "agósto", "tórre"? 



Kaxgufen said:


> Ricordo *di* aver ascoltato a Bergamo un polizotto che parlava con la cadenza di un messicano...non so s*e* quello sarebbe *è* normale...



Molto strano.


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## bearded

Caro Nino,
nell'ambito della città di Bologna - e penso anche in molte altre città - bisogna nettamente distinguere 1) una pronuncia dell'Italiano  'medio-alta', propria del ceto medio ed intellettuale, e 2) una pronuncia 'bassa', molto dialettale.  Non sarei in grado di quantificarle percentualmente.  Partiamo dalla seconda.  Qui buona parte dei vocaboli da te elencati è in effetti pronunciata con le vocali aperte.  Invece la pronuncia 1) è più vicina allo standard 'toscano' (io provengo da una famiglia della media borghesia), ma molti errori li facciamo anche noi.  Le parole da te elencate le pronunciamo giuste quasi tutte, salvo ''lègge'', però diciamo erroneamente il rè, perchè, trè.  In compenso chiudiamo molte vocali che dovrebbero essere aperte: il pétto, il gésso... e (con o chiusa) poi, aurora, forbici...
Interessanti certe 'opposizioni' semantiche che, in conseguenza di pronunce locali, esistono a Bologna ma non altrove (es: le sétte/le sètte, costa/còsta...). Secondo me una linea di demarcazione 'vocalica' corre attraverso l'Emilia-Romagna: quanto più ci si avvicina alla Lombardia, tanto più le vocali sono aperte alla 'milanese' anche nella pronuncia delle 'classi intellettuali': ad es. il Prof.Prodi, che è di Scandiano (Reggio Emilia) dice già 'stèlle, tòrre, sicurèzza'...
E' una situazione abbastanza complicata, e spero che quanto da me detto possa essere di qualche utilità.  Chiaramente la mia è una regione 'di transizione' tra il Nord e la Toscana, con prevalenza del Nord, e la pronuncia emiliana non va assolutamente presa a modello per la pronuncia italiana.


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## merquiades

bearded man said:


> La situazione non è così semplice.  A Milano - come in quasi tutto il Nord Italia - sono moltissime le e pronunciate chiuse (che dovrebbero essere aperte secondo lo standard). Esempi: béne, sémpre, probléma... E naturalmente viceversa (aperte anziché chiuse): tètto, bagnètto, sicurèzza, quèsto.  L'esempio classico della pronuncia milanese - riguardo alle e - è ''sémpre strètto'' invece dello standard ''sèmpre strétto''.  Anche con le o ci sono analoghe imprecisioni: sògno, corridòio, quattòrdici....



Grazie mille, signor barbuto.  In un'altra discussione gl'Italiani m'hanno detto che non importa molto come si pronunciano queste vocali perché in realtà tutti lo fanno come vogliono (aperte o chiuse) e non esiste molta pressione sociale per adottare la pronuncia toscana standard (non parlo di quelli che dicono "hassa" invece di  "casa"). Solamente gli attori, i presentatori di tivù e radio, i professori, ed i politici imparono a parlare secondo le regole officiali.
È vero che nel nord non pronunciate il raddoppiamento consonàntico?


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## bearded

merquiades said:


> Grazie mille, signor barbuto.  In un'altra discussione gl'Italiani m'hanno detto che non importa molto come si pronunciano queste vocali perché in realtà tutti lo fanno come vogliono (aperte o chiuse) e non esiste molta pressione sociale per adottare la pronuncia toscana standard (non parlo di quelli che dicono "hassa" invece di  "casa"). Solamente gli attori, i presentatori di tivù e radio, i professori, ed i politici imparono a parlare secondo le regole officiali.
> È vero che nel nord non pronunciate il raddoppiamento consonàntico?


Salve, merquiades.  Effettivamente non molti italiani prestano attenzione alla loro pronuncia, tanto più che nelle nostre scuole si insegna la grammatica ma non la pronuncia 'standard'.  Tuttavia, quanto più ci si allontana dallo standard, tanto più la parlata suona 'regionale/volgare'.  Molti politici, ed altre personalità 'pubbliche' in Italia, parlano con un forte accento regionale. Non vorrei fare nomi. Invece altre - più attente - parlano un Italiano migliore (ad es: l'ex-Presidente Napolitano: si sente che è di Napoli, ma la sua pronuncia è quasi 'neutra').
Sì, è vero, nel Nord Italia non si pronuncia il raddoppiamento consonantico 'sintattico'.  Lo si comincia a fare dalla Toscana in giù.  Così noi pronunciamo ''a te'', e non ''a tte',  ''da Milano'' e non ''da Mmilano'', e così via. Ci sono delle ragioni storiche di questo, ma il mio post diventerebbe troppo lungo.  In certe parti del Nord Italia poi non si pronunciano in generale le consonanti doppie (spesso succede nel Veneto): aparechiar (apparecchiare), nesunaltro (nessun altro)...
By the way, i miei complimenti per il tuo Italiano quasi perfetto (però le regole sono *u*fficiali).


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## Nino83

Grazie bearded man, per la risposta.  



merquiades said:


> In un'altra discussione gl'Italiani m'hanno detto che non importa molto come si pronunciano queste vocali perché in realtà tutti lo fanno come vogliono (aperte o chiuse) e non esiste molta pressione sociale per adottare la pronuncia toscana standard



L'isoglossa La Spezia-Rimini (o, meglio Massa-Senigallia) è importantissima. 
Ad esempio, anche se l'Italiano regionale non corrisponde allo standard (ad esempio in Sicilia pronunciamo tutto aperto, "è" ed "ò"), chi abita nell'Italia peninsulare (sotto l'isoglossa) può sempre far riferimento alla lingua locale per conoscere la distribuzione delle vocali medioalte e mediobasse. 
Ad esempio, in siciliano si dice "s*i*ccu, fr*i*scu, fr*i*ddu, st*i*dda, cr*ì*sciri, l*i*ggi, str*i*ttu", quindi sappiamo che la "e" è chiusa e lo stesso con "c*u*rtu, b*u*cca, m*u*sca, a*ù*stu, t*u*rri", con conseguente "o" chiusa (a differenza, ad esempio di "b*e*ni, v*e*ntu, f*o*rti, p*o*rta", che hanno, quindi vocali aperte in Italiano standard). 
Nell'Italia continentale (sopra l'isoglossa), salvo che in Veneto, i parlanti non hanno alcun appiglio poiché nelle lingue locali le vocali sono aperte in sillaba chiusa e viceversa (e questo avviene anche nella zona adriatica, Puglia e basso Abruzzo). 

In sostanza, nelle zone centrali e mediane, i parlanti hanno per natura un accento molto vicino allo standard, in quelle meridionali, salvo Puglia e Abruzzo) possono fare riferimento alle lingue locali mentre al nord (se si eccettua il Veneto), il parlante può soltanto cercare la pronuncia corretta nel dizionario. 

Detto questo, la distinzione tra vocali (medie) aperte e chiuse varia da regione a regione, quindi non è di fondamentale importanza per lo straniero che vuole essere compreso (quindi non c'è una maggiore difficoltà rispetto, ad esempio, allo spagnolo). 

Per avvicinarsi ad avere un buon accento, secondo me, è più importante concentrarsi sulle consonanti doppie, che è il vero "punto debole" degli stranieri, il più delle volte.


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## Sempervirens

Ciao, Nino! Sul non prestare molta attenzione alle vocali ti posso dire che spesso la corretta pronuncia della O e della E aiuta a distinguere meglio parti di frase o parole italiane come 'collo' e 'corro', 'cera' e c'era, ecc.
Dal momento che in Giappone si stenta a distinguere la lettera L dalla R succede spesso che in un discorso non pienamente ben fatto, sintassi stentata ed altro ancora, perlomeno la vocale di una parola se viene azzeccata aiuta a capire meglio il senso del discorso.  Ai miei amici giapponesi che parlicchiano l'italiano ho dato questa dritta e devo dire che ora si capisce meglio se dicono _morto _o _molto._

S.V


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## bearded

> Nino83:
> ...Sopra l'isoglossa...nelle lingue locali le vocali sono aperte in sillaba chiusa...


Non mi sembra sempre vero. Ad es: a Bologna, morto = mort, tutti = tott, brutto = brott, (mi) ricordo = (a m') arcord, molto = dimondi : tutti vocaboli con o chiusa.  Le stesse parole si pronunciano con o aperta in Romagna, secondo la tua ''regola''.

@ Sempervirens
Che cosa vorrebbe dire ''còrro''? O ti riferisci già ad una pronuncia giapponese?
A proposito di equivoci, ti segnalo la famosa canzone ''Cielo grande, cielo blu'', pronunciato dal cantante come ''Ce l'ho grande, ce l'ho blu''.


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## Nino83

Ciao s.v., ma non aiuta affatto a distinguere tra "cólto" e "córto". 
Bearded, le parole "tutti" e "brutto" hanno una "u" in italiano mentre "morto" ha la "o" aperta in italiano ma ha la "o" chiusa in bolognese solo perché nell'emiliano-romagnolo le sillabe con "r" o "l" in coda sono da considerarsi aperte perché a volte non venivano pronunciate (vedi Hull, the linguistic unity of Northern Italy and Rhaetia)


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## Sempervirens

Ciao, ragazzi! Sì, Nino, dici bene. Non sempre infatti la sola distinzione della vocale aperta o chiusa aiuta ad identificare una parola della quale un Giapponese avrebbe difficoltà a pronunciarne la R distinta dalla L.  È anche vero però che tra lo sbagliare cólto con córto fa meno effetto che sbagliare morto con molto.   Con la seconda non ci scappa il morto ma una risata. 

Bearded man, mi riferivo al verbo finito corro (correre) e al sostantivo collo. Qui se non si nota la differenza tra L e R, perlomeno la vocale, chiusa o aperta, ci aiuta ad identificare l'oggetto.  Insomma, il tutto lo dico a supporto di una buona pronuncia delle vocali. Parlo dei miei amici giapponesi alle prese con l'esatta pronuncia di queste due comunissime lettere. 

Io sarei per cominciare a metterceli questi benedetti accenti. Non per me che ancora mi riesce di far distinzione, ma per voi extra-toscani che vi vedo affannare et ansimare vistosamente. 

S.V


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## Nino83

Sempervirens said:


> Io sarei per cominciare a metterceli questi benedetti accenti. Non per me che ancora mi riesce di far distinzione, ma per voi extra-toscani che vi vedo affannare et ansimare vistosamente.



Ciò vale, qualche volta, anche per i Toscani, come in "léttera" (pronuncia standard, centrale e meridionale, vedi siciliano "littra") e "lèttera" (pronuncia toscana). 

dal latino "lǐtteram", latino volgare "léttera" 
ˈlettera. -ɛt- [T ɛ, UMLR e] 
in http://www.dipionline.it/dizionario/


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## bearded

...e molto spesso 'mèttere' (Livorno/Pisa) invece di méttere < lat.mittere.


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## Sempervirens

Ragazzi, non parlo del passaggio dal latino all'italiano. Parlo della pronuncia corretta delle parole che usiamo oggigiorno.

Lèttera, con la vocale E aperta è la pronuncia che convive  assieme a léttera. Comunque per non fare un torto a nessuno abbiamo lasciato la E chiusa alla parola letterale.  Stranezze della vita e della lingua.

S.V


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## Nino83

Sempervirens said:


> Ragazzi, non parlo del passaggio dal latino all'italiano. Parlo della pronuncia corretta delle parole che usiamo oggigiorno.



Eh, no, ormai la pronuncia standard moderna, quindi "corretta", è "léttera" (usata anche in Umbria, Marche, Lazio, Roma, e in tutto il meridione) mentre "lèttera" è vista come toscanismo o come "tradizionale".


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## bearded

Sempervirens said:


> Ragazzi, non parlo del passaggio dal latino all'italiano. Parlo della pronuncia corretta delle parole che usiamo oggigiorno.
> 
> Lèttera, con la vocale E aperta è la pronuncia che convive  assieme a léttera. Comunque per non fare un torto a nessuno abbiamo lasciato la E chiusa alla parola letterale.  Stranezze della vita e della lingua.
> 
> S.V


Per stabilire l'apertura o chiusura delle vocali nelle parole 'che usiamo oggigiorno', l'origine latina ha la sua importanza (ci sono certe leggi fonetiche...).
Quanto a 'letterale', la e è naturale che sia chiusa perché non ha l'accento (vedi ad es. cènto, ma centinaio con e chiusa, bèllo ma bellezza ecc.).


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## Sempervirens

Basta trovarsi d'accordo su chi dover dare retta. Treccani così ci informa:

*lèttera* (o *léttera*) s. f. [lat. _l__ĭ__tt__ĕ__ra_; come sinon. di _epist__ŭ__la_ il latino adoperava il pl. _litt__ĕ__rae_; cfr. il gr. γράμμα, pl. γράμματα, nei due sign]. – 

A me pare che quella parentesi la dica lunga. Sembra quasi una opzione. 

Bearded man, come spiegheresti la E chiusa del participio messo, contro la E aperta del verbo mettere? Qui l'accento è fuori discorso. Il fenomeno richiederebbe maggiore indagine. Una qualche ragione ci deve essere.

S.V


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## Nino83

Sempervirens said:


> A me pare che quella parentesi la dica lunga. Sembra quasi una opzione.



Il sito che ho postato prima è il DIPI (Dizionario di Pronuncia Italiana) scritto da Canepari (il più importante studioso di fonologia italiana nonché autore del manuale di pronuncia utilizzato da attori, giornalisti e così via). 

Ecco cosa dice il dizionario d'ortografia e pronuncia della Rai: 



> delle due pronunce della vocale tonica, originaria la chiusa, per regolare continuazione dell'i breve del latino littera, pronuncia dominante a Roma in tutta l'Italia mediana e in diverse altre regioni, settentrionali e meridionali, da Venezia a Napoli, e oltre;
> nata più tardi la pronuncia aperta dovuta probabilmente all'attrazione con letto, participio passato di leggere, ma anch'essa non meno antica della lingua letteraria italiana, essendo attestata esplicitamente da Leon Battista Alberti (1404-72) e confermata poi da tutta la tradizione lessicografica, *oltre che di fatto estesa da Firenze a tutta la Toscana dopo scomparsa la pronuncia chiusa in una parte della regione, con centro Siena*, dov'era ancora attestata fra '500 e '700



http://www.dizionario.rai.it/poplemma.aspx?lid=44538&r=517 

La pronuncia "lèttera" è prettamente Toscana, in discontinuità con la parola latina.


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## bearded

@ Sempervirens
La è aperta di mettere è sbagliata, come sopra accennato (errore di certi luoghi della Toscana e della Lombardia). Si dice méttere, perméttere, ecc. quindi mésso, permésso, ecc. (Dizionario Zingarelli, ediz.Zanichelli 2011, con indicazione dell'accento acuto) ''dal Latino mittere''..


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## Sempervirens

Ragazzi, sì, certo, sono d'accordo con voi sul fatto che qualche irregolarità della pronuncia di alcune parole c'è anche in Toscana.
Queste poche irregolarità le possiamo contare sulle dita di una mano. 

Devo dirvi che è un piacere discutere con voi. E tutto a vantaggio dei rapporti umani e culturali. 

S.V


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> La pronuncia "lèttera" è prettamente Toscana, in discontinuità con la parola latina.


 Credo que no possiamo utilizzare il latino come modelo perchè tutto la lingua italiana è in discontinuità con la parola latina.  Non solamente "mittere, littera" etc.
Se non potete mettervi d'accordo fra di voi italiani se una vocale sta aperta o chiusa, vuol dire que in realtà non c'è nessuna importanza quando parlate.  
É È, Ó Ò sono alofoni della medesima vocale. Sarà pér quèsto ché avéte déciso di non indicarlo sèmpre néll'ortografía.  Poco vi importa. Nell'italiano moderno vi sono 5 vocali e la aperta o chiusura depende della regione o dell'individuo.


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## Sempervirens

Ciao, merquiades!  No, la buona pronuncia di una vocale evita fraintendimenti. Ci sono un sacco di parole omografe che se vengono pronunciate secondo gusti personali mandano a monte tutto il discorso.  Noi Italiani è vero,  si fa finta di non trovarci d'accordo ma poi sotto sotto finiamo per convenire su quello che è conveniente fare.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/omografi_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/

P.S Scusa se mi sono intromesso nel discorso tra te e Bearded man. 

S.V


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## Peripes

English, and most of the time nothing after that. It seems that every teenager is studying English here and there, but not all of them are very proficient.

I would say that after English would be French (due to the presence of the _Alliance Française_) but I'm not sure.


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## bearded

Sempervirens ha risposto a merquiades proprio come avrei fatto io, dunque a me la sua 'intromissione' è gradita.  Caro merquiades, non lasciarti ingannare dalla presenza di varie pronunce regionali: esiste eccome la regola di un Italiano standard - sulla base del Toscano.  Purtroppo non viene insegnato a scuola, a causa di programmi....disattenti, ed ecco perché molti italiani hanno spiccate pronunce regionali o non dànno importanza alla pronuncia.  E naturalmente, quanto minore è la cultura del parlante, tanto più la sua pronuncia si allontana dallo standard.


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## Nino83

Esatto, la pronuncia standard (delle "e" e delle "o") esiste ed è applicata tutti i giorni (con qualche variazione regionale) da Firenze a Latina e da Ancona a Macerata.


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## Silver_Biscuit

My native country is England, and I believe others already went into the basic system in the UK. I learnt French from age 11-16 and German from 12-14. I didn't really retain a lot of French, and hardly even a few phrases of German. 

I now live in Iceland and the kids here first start learning Danish at school. That is the 'official second language' according to the schooling system. Of course this is pretty ridiculous and the reasons are entirely historical. Iceland has been independent from Denmark since 1944, but they still have a tendency to think of Denmark as more important to Iceland than other countries. In reality, English is the second language in Iceland. It is also compulsory at school, although introduced after Danish. I think most kids also learn a third foreign language later, but they have a lot more choice there (it would be another European language, though - French, German, Spanish or another Nordic language).

I think some schools are starting to introduce English before Danish now, which is more pragmatic. Most Icelanders I know speak terrible Danish, if any Danish at all (much like my French) but speak very good English. If an average Icelander and an average Dane met, they would almost definitely speak English together, not Danish.


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## jasio

Silver_Biscuit said:


> If an average Icelander and an average Dane met, they would almost definitely speak English together, not Danish.



Actually, it's not a surprise at all. A conversation when one side speaks its second language while the other - his/her mothertongue, can be very frustrating for both sides. I often prefer to speak a language, which is not native for neither me nor the counterpart, because this equals the playfield for both of us. Of course, unless we just chit-chat, an objective of the conversation is to raise language skills, or we simply do not have a common foreign language, which is most often the case, especially with Anglophones.


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## Kaxgufen

Sigo sin comprender esa manía de llamar "segundo idioma" a una lengua que se estudió académicamente y en la cual la inmensa mayoría no consigue expresar lo que quiere sino lo que puede.
Estudié inglés y francés en la escuela secundaria. Luego por mi cuenta también tomé cursos de ruso, alemán, italiano, guaraní (muy poquito), esperanto y euskera. El portugués "lo sospecho". Me animé con bastante éxito a leer novelas en inglés, italiano, esperanto y francés. De hecho gran parte de mi carrera la hice con textos en inglés. Pero aun así no consigo hablar ninguna con la fluencia del castellano, o sea como un nativo, y jamás diría que alguno de ellos es "mi segundo idioma". 
Hecha esta importante distinción, me pregunto que tan infladas están las estadísticas...


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## Angelo di fuoco

No es una cuestión de fluencia, sino del orden de aprendizaje. Quiere decir "segunda lengua después de la materna" (para la mayoría, ya que algunos tienen una lengua materna y paterna, o la lengua de los padres y la lengua del ambiente en que viven, o lengua materna, paterna y del ambiente) o "primera lengua extranjera".

En mi caso, da lo mismo ruso (L1, la del país donde nací y pasé los primeros diez años de mi vida) que alemán (L2, la del país donde vivo desde entonces), el resto viene después. Lo de leer novelas, lo he hecho en ruso, alemán, francés, inglés, español, alemán, portugués (lengua que nunca estudié de modo formal o sistemático) y catalán...
Por cierto, no sabía que existía un mercado para novelas en esperanto...


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## Sempervirens

Nino83 said:


> E sbagliano, visto che prevale nettamente la versione romana nei media (che poi è simile a quella toscana).




A Cesare quello che è di Cesare!


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## Kaxgufen

Angelo di fuoco said:


> No es una cuestión de fluencia, sino del orden de aprendizaje. Quiere decir "segunda lengua después de la materna" (para la mayoría, ya que algunos tienen una lengua materna y paterna, o la lengua de los padres y la lengua del ambiente en que viven, o lengua materna, paterna y del ambiente) o "primera lengua extranjera".
> 
> En mi caso, da lo mismo ruso (L1, la del país donde nací y pasé los primeros diez años de mi vida) que alemán (L2, la del país donde vivo desde entonces), el resto viene después. Lo de leer novelas, lo he hecho en ruso, alemán, francés, inglés, español, alemán, portugués (lengua que nunca estudié de modo formal o sistemático) y catalán...
> Por cierto, no sabía que existía un mercado para novelas en esperanto...



Como sea, orden o fluencia, aquí la inmensa mayoría de la gente tiene un único idioma en su casa y en la calle...
Entonces,el segundo idioma sería el poco inglés que estudian en la escuela. Con eso inflan las estadísticas y ponen al inglés en primer lugar como "segundo idioma". La realidad es que_ no tienen segundo idioma. _


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## merquiades

Kaxgufen said:


> Como sea, orden o fluencia, aquí la inmensa mayoría de la gente tiene un único idioma en su casa y en la calle...
> Entonces,el segundo idioma sería el poco inglés que estudian en la escuela. Con eso inflan las estadísticas y ponen al inglés en primer lugar como "segundo idioma". La realidad es que_ no tienen segundo idioma. _



Lo mismo ocurre aquí.  La gente pone que el inglés es su segundo idioma y el alemán o el castellano es el tercero.  Lo que quieren decir es que los han estudiado en el colegio.  Yo también podría poner que estudié matemáticas química, y biología.  Es cierto pero no me acuerdo de nada.  Pasa igual en la mayor parte de los países.  No tienen segundo idioma.  Una excepción sería Holanda y Bélgica.  Allí aprenden inglés y francés y los hablan de verdad.


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## Beninjam

I would avoid over-romanticizing the situation in Belgium and Holland. 
Anybody who wants to improve his/her job prospects in Belgium will make an effort to learn the country's other official language. 
There was a time that it was primarily Flemings who learnt French. Nowadays with the Flemish economy in the ascendant, Francophones make a greater effort to master Flemish. 
English is also essential these days, but although many have good spoken competence in their field, general competence is what I would call conversational. 

Dutch people are not subject to the same constraints as Belgians. In general though English competence is relatively good for conversational purposes. 
Dutch people also tend to know some German as well.


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## 涼宮

In Venezuela the most studied language is English, shitty English because most teachers, as it happens in other Spanish speaking countries, tend to suck donkey balls to teach English, the worst of all, the classes are in Spanish. Nobody learns English in high school, if you truly want to speak it study it on your own, that's your best shot. High schools that don't teach science subjects like biology, mathematics, etc., meaning, Humanities High schools, teach philosophy, French, Latin, Ancient Greek and English, though Latin and Ancient Greek are only taught in the last 2 years of high school (HS lasts 5 years). However, in Venezuela most people are monolingual, most don't speak a lick of English or speak very bad and limited English. But most don't need English in their lives so it makes no sense for them to speak it. It's kinda like what happens in Japan, even though most study English in HS they don't speak it.


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## Kaxgufen

涼宮 said:


> In Venezuela the most studied language is English, shitty English because most teachers, as it happens in other Spanish speaking countries, tend to suck donkey balls to teach English, the worst of all, the classes are in Spanish. Nobody learns English in high school, if you truly want to speak it study it on your own, that's your best shot. High schools that don't teach science subjects like biology, mathematics, etc., meaning, Humanities High schools, teach philosophy, French, Latin, Ancient Greek and English, though Latin and Ancient Greek are only taught in the last 2 years of high school (HS lasts 5 years). However, in Venezuela most people are monolingual, most don't speak a lick of English or speak very bad and limited English. But most don't need English in their lives so it makes no sense for them to speak it. It's kinda like what happens in Japan, even though most study English in HS they don't speak it.



Exactamente. Y seguramente si a esos pobres infelices les preguntás cual es su segundo idioma, se llenan la boca diciendo que el inglés, engrosando la estadística.


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## 涼宮

De eso no te quede duda. Es bien sabido que los castellanoparlantes en general son muy monolingües (salvo el excepcional caso de Paraguay donde la mayoría habla español y guaraní), y no falta el exagerado que diga que habla inglés cuando si acaso sabe decir ''hola, me llamo Panchito'' y lo dice con fonética española. Ya me he topado con muchos así; y peor son aquellos que dicen que hablan perfecto por haber pasado una semana en Miami. No digo que tengas que poder leer literatura y saber redactar un ensayo académico para decir que hablas una lengua, pero hay una gran diferencia entre decir ''jelou, ai can tu espí ínglis bery güel bicos ai sin is a isi languich'' y poder comunicarte decentemente en una variedad de temas.


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## kakapadaka

Many Poles study German and/or Russian at school and you can usually find these languages in public spaces (restaurants, train stations, ticket machines etc.) I find it ridiculous because it's a relic of times long gone. Everybody had to study Russian back in the day and that obligation somehow stuck around until the present era. However, Polish is a major holiday destination for Spaniards (and Brazillians, surprisingly) and even though we learn Spanish more and more it's still quite hard to find Spanish-friendly commodities around town (not to mention Portuguese). As for German... well, Germany's position in the UE is not debatable, but frankly, there are more popular languages around and it's hard to even meet Germans unless you live in the westernmost part of the country...

Our second language is obviously English and we like to rub other nations' faces in our language skills, but actually our level is pretty uneven. Some Poles are almost fluent and others can barely have a conversation (for the record, I think Poland ranks somewhere in the middle of all the European countries, below Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and above France, Spain, Italy). Most of us struggle to supress our easily recognisable accent.


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## olaszinho

Nino83

 Per avvicinarsi ad avere un buon accento, secondo me, è più importante concentrarsi sulle consonanti doppie, che è il vero "punto debole" degli stranieri, il più delle volte.[/QUOTE]


Mi scuso se riprendo questo vecchio messaggio di Nino83, ma sono totalmente d’accordo con lui, anche per me le consonanti geminate costituiscono uno dei maggiori ostacoli nell’apprendimento dell’italiano e lo rendono più complicato ad esempio dello spagnolo. Particolare difficoltà riscontrano quasi tutti i parlanti delle altre lingue romanze, in particolar modo rumeni e spagnoli.
Un altro argomento coinvolgente  èla supposta facilità dell’italiano rispetto allo spagnolo. L’argomentom’intriga molto anche perché ho studiato a lungo lo spagnolo e mi piaceconfrontarlo spesso con l’italiano; per quanto le due lingue siano moltosimili, ritengo che lo spagnolo sia più "semplice dell’italiano per varie ragioni che cercherò di spiegare. Sempre che si possa definire una lingua più semplicedelle altre; molti linguisti negano questa possibilità J 
Maggiori difficoltà dell'italiano rispetto allo spagnolo:
-Mancanza delle consonanti geminate e di altri fonemi esistenti nella maggior parte dellelingue europee.
-L’accentografico spagnolo consente di riconoscere subito la vocale tonica, cosa che nonaccade in italiano.
-Tanto gli articoli quanto le preposizioni sono più complicati in italiano, basti pensarea tutte le preposizioni articolate
-I participi passati sono estremamente regolari se confrontati con quelli italiani o francesi e in aggiunta esistono solo due classi regolari _– ado e – ido e_ non 3 come in altre lingue romanze.
-Il passato remoto è più facile  in spagnolo (è innegabile che è molto più usato che initaliano, ma uno straniero che voglia avere una conoscenza più che discreta dell’italiano non può prescindere da esso, altrimenti non potrebbe leggere nulla, da wikipedia a testi più formali.Inoltre nel centro-sud è ancora usato anche nell’oralità, in Toscana ,Campania e Puglia e in altre regioni è usato comunemente anche nel linguaggioinformale. Ad ogni modo per tutti gli italiani, il passato remoto è un tempo fondamentale, basti pensare che sin da piccini si narrano le favole col passato remoto! A scuola tutti i testi di base sono scritti usando il passato remoto; affermare che è arcaico o vetusto è una semplificazione, e per di più non corrisponde a verità.
-Il passato prossimo italiano è assai più complesso del corrispondente tempo spagnolo _pretérito perfecto:_ lo spagnolo utilizza soltanto l’ausiliare avere, proprio come l’inglese, e il participio passato èinvariabile. L’uso degli ausiliari essere e avere in italiano è probabilmente anchepiù complesso che in francese.
-In spagnolonon esistono le particelle pronominali _ci,vi, ne, ce_ e tutta una serie di verbi pronominali come _farcela, cavarsela, smetterla, svignarsela etc_, molto usati nellinguaggio colloquiale. Questo rende lo spagnolo più semplice non solo dell’italiano ma anche del catalano e del francese.
-E’ innegabile che lo spagnolo disponga di molti verbi irregolari al presente, grazie allafamosa dittongazione ma in quanto a difficoltà, credo che ciò sia compensatadai verbi italiani in -ire che sidividono in 2 gruppi e molti di essi inseriscono l’infisso –sco- sci etc.
-I pluralispagnoli sono semplicissimi e soprattutto regolari! Può essere paragonata aduna lingua artificiale, non presenta eccezioni. Anche i plurali italiani nonsono complessi e risultano piuttosto regolari ma esiste tutta una serie d'eccezioni:
-nomi uscenti in – co –go che possono uscire in – ci o -gi ma non esistono regole precise.
-plurali(pochi) che continuano il plurale neutro latino in – a, sebbene in italianosiano considerati femminili plurali: _uovo-a/ paio/paia/migliaio/migliaia;mille/mila_. Etc. Vi sono inoltre parole con doppio plurale: _tipo braccio – bracci e braccia, etc._
-Esistonoinoltre plurali totalmente irregolari: uomo- uomini; bue- buoi; tempio – templie il caratteristico il dio - gli dèi.

Difficoltà dello spagnolo:
-La pronunciadi z/c (spagnolo europeo) può presentare delle difficoltà, stesso dicasi delsuono intermedio fra v/b.
-Il congiuntivo è un tempo complesso ed esistono 2 diverse desinenzeper l’imperfetto congiuntivo _–ara e –ase. _Sono presenti irregolaritàanche nell’imperfetto congiuntivo. Non credo comunque che l’uso del congiuntivo sia piùdifficile che in italiano, sempre che si voglia parlare in un buon italiano.
-Il verbo _ser ed estar, _può presentare delledifficoltà all’inizio ma tali verbi esistono pure in italiano, anche se il lorouso è sicuramente più semplice. Il francese è la lingua in cui il verbo starenon esiste affatto.
-_Por/para_: l’uso di queste preposizioni richiede una certa attenzione, ma che diredella preposizioneitaliana _da_? Non ha equivalenti in nessun’altralingua romanza ed ha una molteplicità di funzioni.
-Una certa difficoltà possono presentare l’uso del doppio pronome e i pronomi neutri _– esto – eso – aquello_.


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## Nino83

Some mistakes made by Bergoglio about geminate consonants (angelus 22 marzo 2015): a*t*ira, al*g*uni gre*cc*i, Gerusale*m*e, gli di*cc*ono, ne*l*a ci*t*à santa, a*c*olto, capi del po*pp*olo, e*ll*iminare, pericolo*ss*o, va*n*o, a*t*raversa, ha*n*o, de*ss*idero, indire*t*amente, que*l*a, ca*m*ino, sconfi*t*a, i*n*alzato, ne*l*a. 

Minimal pairs: la tira/l'attira, ha colto/accolto, è liminare (double "l", raddoppio fonosintattico)/eliminare, pericolo osso/pericoloso, vano/vanno, a traversa/attraversa, ano/anno/hanno, camino/cammino.


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## Mishe

kakapadaka said:


> Many Poles study German and/or Russian at school and you can usually find these languages in public spaces (restaurants, train stations, ticket machines etc.) I find it ridiculous because it's a relic of times long gone. Everybody had to study Russian back in the day and that obligation somehow stuck around until the present era. However, Polish is a major holiday destination for Spaniards (and Brazillians, surprisingly) and even though we learn Spanish more and more it's still quite hard to find Spanish-friendly commodities around town (not to mention Portuguese). As for German... well, Germany's position in the UE is not debatable, but frankly, there are more popular languages around and it's hard to even meet Germans unless you live in the westernmost part of the country...
> 
> Our second language is obviously English and we like to rub other nations' faces in our language skills, but actually our level is pretty uneven. Some Poles are almost fluent and others can barely have a conversation (for the record, I think Poland ranks somewhere in the middle of all the European countries, below Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and above France, Spain, Italy). Most of us struggle to supress our easily recognisable accent.



Spanish and Brazilian tourists swarming Poland? That's interesting. What do you think is the reason behind it?


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## kakapadaka

As for Spaniards I believe they've been joining all the western crowd of tourists who recently discovered my country; it's a cheap vacation destination, not far away and yet so much different than the West. We also have lots of French guys and Britons (who are particulary fond of organizing short party trips). For some southerners it's a rare oportunity to see snow  Some areas of Poland -like Kraków- are investing heavily in tourism, creating new airline connections, advertising and whatnot.
The Brazillians are a mystery to me, it may have something to do with pilgrimages to sites of memory to our saints like the pope John Paul II.
Maybe some Brazillians would care to comment on this.


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## Vanda

I have, better, we at WR have an old Brazilian forero studying Linguistics in Poland and also I know of an old friend who went to Poland to study English. First of all because of prices, and there might have another reason: we have a sort of big community of Pole and their descendents who live in the Southern part of Brasil. Most of the immigrants came I think during World War flighting their country. Besides that, we really have a big number of Brazilians who go to Poland for tourism, actually who go to Europe as a whole, all over it. And Poland is in my wish list to visit ....

Ah kakapadaka, forget that pilgrimages reason; all of my friends go to Poland for tourism not related to religion, just for loved of knowing a different culture and places.


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## funnyhat

danielfranco said:


> Hi, Lulú!
> I just wanted to comment that, here in the States, the official second language that you must learn depends on the _state_ in which you live!
> Weird, no?
> It's not common knowledge (sometimes even the natives themselves don't know it) that the USA has no official language, and each state chooses which language is their official language. Some states even choose official second languages, so there you are!
> Cool, no?
> Bueno bye.
> Dan F



To clarify: English, for all practical purposes, is the official language of the United States.  Public education is always conducted in English, even in areas where most students do not speak it at home.  Some schools offer bilingual programs in which the student (if non-English speaking) can be initially taught in his/her native language, but this is only temporary and eventually the student will be required to take courses that are taught in English in order to finish high school.  Some states have passed laws recognizing other languages, but this is essentially ceremonial; government/education still function in English.

Regarding second languages, this used to be completely optional in the U.S. but now, most states require a couple of years of high school study (and most universities do as well).  I don't think any state requires students to study a specific foreign language, but Spanish is offered at all high schools nowadays, and increasingly at lower levels of school.  Currently, around 70% of students in foreign-language classes are taking Spanish.  French is the next most-common foreign language, studied by around 15% of students IIRC.  French is commonly offered at the high school level (ages 14-18) but not necessarily before then.  In Louisiana, and states near the Canadian border, it's quite popular and may be offered from early ages.

Beyond those two languages, it depends on the school.  German is the third-most studied language but is not offered everywhere.  Chinese is growing is popularity and may pass German.  Other languages may be offered depending on the heritage of the students.  For example, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Finnish is taught in a few schools.


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## RM1(SS)

My girls were required to take both French and Spanish in middle school - I think they did one semester of each in sixth and seventh grades, then chose one or the other to take a full year of in eighth.

When I was in school ('60s-early -70s) no languages were offered in junior high.  My high school offered four years each of German, Spanish, and French, and one year each of Latin and Russian.  (I think the German students outnumbered all of the others put together.)


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## kakapadaka

Spanish eh? I see no Canadians around here and I'm wondering if Spanish is gaining popularity there like in the US of A. If anyone should know about this do elaborate.


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## Pedro y La Torre

kakapadaka said:


> Spanish eh? I see no Canadians around here and I'm wondering if Spanish is gaining popularity there like in the US of A. If anyone should know about this do elaborate.



French is one of Canada's two official languages so in English Canada, French is the first ''foreign'' language learnt at school (and vice-versa in Quebec). It will not be supplanted by Spanish in this regard any time soon.


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## wildan1

In a country like Canada with more than one official language, the language learned along with the native language is called a second language rather than a foreign language.

_French as a second language;
L'anglais langue seconde._


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## Pedro y La Torre

wildan1 said:


> In a country like Canada with more than one official language, the language learned along with the native language is called a second language rather than a foreign language.
> 
> _French as a second language;
> L'anglais langue seconde._



You're right, of course, wildan. But French is a ''foreign'' (in the sense of non-native) language for the overwhelming majority of English Canadians. French Canadians, for obvious reasons, are generally more proficient in English than vice-versa. I think Spanish is probably the most popular true ''foreign'' language, but I don't think it has anything like the reach Spanish has in the U.S.


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## wildan1

Spanish is practically a second language in the US now, particularly in the Southwest and West and virtually any major city across the country.

_English as a second language (_also widely known here as _ESL_)  is the usual AE term for learning that language among immigrants. Almost every school has an ESL program for the children of the many immigrants who move here.


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## Kaxgufen

Pedro y La Torre said:


> You're right, of course, wildan. But French is a ''foreign'' (in the sense of non-native) language for the overwhelming majority of English Canadians. French Canadians, for obvious reasons, are generally more proficient in English than vice-versa. I think Spanish is probably the most popular true ''foreign'' language, but I don't think it has anything like the reach Spanish has in the U.S.



¡Juá! ¿El inglés, nativo y el francés no? ¡Si los dos "vinieron de los barcos"!


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## kakapadaka

Uff no sé, se nos va a escapar el tema de las manos. Es un pedazo de tema para discutir.


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