# Ай-ай-ай



## arn00b

Listening to Russian commentary for the Euros and the English Premier League, I hear the commentators say "ayayay" and a longer version with 5 repetitions of "ay."   This is an interjection used in Mexican(?) Spanish, I believe.

However, the Russian commentators say this in contexts that have nothing to do with Spain, Mexico or the Spanish language in any way.   In certain contexts, for example, Russian commentators are known to use -isms from the language in context - English football, anglicisms, German manager, Germanisms... but ayayay is used "natively."  It is not used in a Spanish-language context.  For example, today it was used in a game between Russia and Slovakia.

Is this a Spanish loan?   Or is it a parallel development to Spanish?  In either case, when did this appear in the language?

Is "ай" ever used as an interjection by itself?


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## Drink

Ай, ой, ай-ай-ай, ой-ой-ой are all very common interjections in Russian. I think it is just a coincidence that they are also used in Spanish. It's hard to give a generalized translation of what they mean, I guess it's different in every context, but they can mean things like "ouch", "oh no", "ahhh", or "what a mess". There is even famous character from children's stories by Корней Чуковский named Доктор Айболит, which means "Doctor Ouchithurts".


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## Maroseika

Ай is an interjection of a sudden fright, pain, amusement etc.
Ай-ай-ай is also used in various contexts, but most typically as interjection of reproach or regret:
Ай-ай-ай, такой шанс упустили! (or even Ай-ай-ай-ай-ай with intonation up and down from [ай] to [йа]).

Of course, this is not a loan, but a proper Russian interjection.


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## arn00b

Thank you for your quick responses.

I had a feeling they were native expressions, but I wasn't 100% sure.   I also completely forgot about oy-oy-oy, which I hear often, which is the same as ay- but with a different vowel.

Is "oy-yóyy" used as well?  (just 2 oy's, but lengthened vowel on the second oy)?   I feel that I've heard it somewhere, but I can't trust my memory.


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## Drink

arn00b said:


> Is "oy-yóyy" used as well?  (just 2 oy's, but lengthened vowel on the second oy)?   I feel that I've heard it somewhere, but I can't trust my memory.



Something like that is used in the song Ишо by Любэ, which is the first thing that popped into my head when I tried to say just two oy's (even though the two oy's are followed by another three oy's).


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## Maroseika

arn00b said:


> Is "oy-yóyy" used as well?  (just 2 oy's, but lengthened vowel on the second oy)?   I feel that I've heard it somewhere, but I can't trust my memory.


This one really sounds as an English loan. Actually, even diphtong оу is untypical for Russian.


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## Drink

Maroseika said:


> This one really sounds as an English loan.



I can't think of anything that sounds like that in English.


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## Maroseika

Drink said:


> I can't think of anything that sounds like that in English.


Well, at least it doesn't sound Russian.


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## Q-cumber

I think "ай ай ай" is similar to the English 'tsk, tsk'.


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## Sobakus

I'd be surprised to find a single European language where this interjection is absent. Well, aside from English, naturally, and maybe the other languages of the British Isles.


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## Rosett

I think it's better to spell it phonetically: ай-яй-яй!

_*(...)**_

Стрелкова Людмила - Эмоциональный букварь от Ах до _*ай-яй-Яй*_
... он со мной нагуляется да придёт к ней с приданым... *ай яй яй*... какая досада. Вы как женщина в жизни многого добились?)

_**Mod.: No promotional activity or advertising of any kind is permitted in the forum.*_


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> I think it's better to spell it phonetically: ай-яй-яй!



You are apparently in a minority, as can be seen here.


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## marco_2

Maroseika said:


> Well, at least it doesn't sound Russian.


So does that mean that *то ли еще будет, ой-ой-ой *doesn't sound Russian? I guess Алла Пугачева would object.


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## Drink

marco_2 said:


> So does that mean that *то ли еще будет, ой-ой-ой *doesn't sound Russian? I guess Алла Пугачева would object.



That's three oy's. He was referring to just two oy's.


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## Maroseika

marco_2 said:


> So does that mean that *то ли еще будет, ой-ой-ой *doesn't sound Russian?


It sounds absolutely Russian. What does not sound Russian is "oy-yóyy".
However now I'm a bit confused whether the topic starter meant this "oy-yóyy" in Cyrillic (as me). Or he meant it in Latin, i.e. something like ой-ёй. This interjection is quite Russian and widely used.


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## Rosett

marco_2 said:


> So does that mean that *то ли еще будет, ой-ой-ой *doesn't sound Russian? I guess Алла Пугачева would object.


It's actually "ой-ёй-ёй".


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> You are apparently in a minority, as can be seen here.


If you pronounce it like three times clear "ай" in a row. you'll get a completely different exclamation.


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> If you pronounce it like three times clear "ай" in a row. you'll get a completely different exclamation.



Not if you don't intentionally insert pauses. And regardless, by your logic one might assume that материал is spelled wrong because people pronounce it матерьял.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> Not if you don't intentionally insert pauses. And regardless, by your logic one might assume that материал is spelled wrong because people pronounce it матерьял.


We are discussing interjections, where spelling reflects nuances of pronunciation, most importantly in the direct speech. If you never heard this interjection, then "ай-яй-яй" spelling helps you to pronounce it properly.
nvspb.ru/stories/ay-yay-yay-ne-uspel--57899
_*Ай-яй-яй*_! Не успел! Не успел! – причитал водитель до следующей остановки.
Ай-яй-яй... Цыганская - Стихи.ру
_*Ай-яй-яй*_-яй-яй-яй-яй-я, яду дайте! _*Ай-яй-яй*_-яй-яй-я, яду наливайте! Уговаривать не надо – в этой жизни столько яда, я иду искать другую, так и знайте!


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## Maroseika

I think it is important to specify that the standard spelling is *ай-ай-ай* and *ой-ой-ой*.
Pronunciation is [айяяй] or [ойёёй] with various intensity of the first [й] .


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> I think it is important to specify that the standard spelling is *ай-ай-ай* and *ой-ой-ой*.
> Pronunciation is [айяяй] or [ойёёй] with various intensity of the first [й] .


It's hard to guess how could you figure it out about standard spelling.
However, neither Ozhegov's nor Ushakov's offer that entry, while Efremova's reserves it's own opinion.

*Ай*-*я*-яй, значения слова / Толковый словарь Ефремовой
Значение слова *ай*-*я*-яй. Ударение: *ай*-*я*-я́й. предикатив разг. Возглас при выражении изумления, удивления, восхищения, одобрения, похвалы или, ...
www.efremova.info


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> It's hard to guess how could you figure it out about standard spelling.
> However, neither Ozhegov's nor Ushakov's offer that entry, while Efremova's reserves it's own opinion.



Ай-ай-ай and ой-ой-ой present in Ozhegov's dictionary (1993). However Lopatin's dictionary (used by gramota.ru) is the most up-to-date and authoritative.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> Ай-ай-ай and ой-ой-ой present in Ozhegov's dictionary (1993). However Lopatin's dictionary (used by gramota.ru) is the most up-to-date and authoritative.


Lopatin's so-called "authority" is self proclaimed and compromised with few serious challenges by critics.
Besides that, in Russian we also have _у-ю-юй_ and _э-ге-гей_, so that let's fix on the OP that you keep changing.
The only official rule is established by 1956 reform: later variations are yet to be accepted officially as standard. Few words fall victim of such a situation and leave battlefields behind them for discussions. And interjections are among the most difficult and coflicting spelling issues. Different spelling may also indicate different pronunciation in the direct speech.


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## Q-cumber

As a matter of fact, "*ай*-*я*-я́й" seems to be the most appropriate spelling of the interjection.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> Lopatin's so-called "authority" is self proclaimed and compromised with few serious challenges by critics.
> Besides that, in Russian we also have _у-ю-юй_ and _э-ге-гей_, so that let's fix on the OP that you keep changing.
> The only official rule is established by 1956 reform: later variations are yet to be accepted officially as standard. Few words fall victim of such a situation and leave battlefields behind them for discussions. And interjections are among the most difficult and coflicting spelling issues. Different spelling may also indicate different pronunciation in the direct speech.


In other words, you suggest the learners to base not on the most contemporary spelling dictionary of the Russian Academy of Sciences or on the Russian National Corpus (30:1 for ай-ай-ай), but on the "pronunciation" (as it may seem to some natives). I'm afraid this is not the best advice we can give to the learners of Russian.
Anyway, we are here to provide the broadest view on the language, including standards and natives' opinions.

As for "у-ю-юй", it is not standardized, there is no such an interjection neither in the dictionaries or in the Corpus, so one may spell it whatever he wants.



Q-cumber said:


> As a matter of fact, "*ай*-*я*-я́й" seems to be the most appropriate spelling of the interjection.


Although such spelling may express some specific variant of the interjection, for its neutral version this spelling seems redundant - too many j's: [aj-ja-jaj].
Standard spelling presumes [aj-aj-aj], and there really only one "j" after each vowel.
The same "economical" priniciple is implemented in ой-ой-ой.


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## Drink

As I've pointed out in my link to Google Ngrams in my previous post, even if you don't believe the authoritative sources, the spellings _ай-ай-ай_ and _ой-ой-ой_ are simply more common than any other variants, and always have been since the time they first came to be used in writing in the 19th century.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> In other words, you suggest the learners to base not on the most contemporary spelling dictionary of the Russian Academy of Sciences or on the Russian National Corpus (30:1 for ай-ай-ай), but on the "pronunciation" (as it may seem to some natives). I'm afraid this is not the best advice we can give to the learners of Russian.
> Anyway, we are here to provide the broadest view on the language, including standards and natives' opinions.
> 
> As for "у-ю-юй", it is not standardized, there is no such an interjection neither in the dictionaries or in the Corpus, so one may spell it whatever he wants.


I can suggest the learners stick to Reform 1956 spelling as it is the only one officially standard. The contemporary RAS spelling dictionary hasn't won its official nomination yet and contains few controversial suggestions.
"Ай-я(й)-яй" spelling is common enough and is much closer to the native pronunciation - enough to drop transcription notes in the dictionaries, as opposed to "ай-ай-ай" that leaves much more room for incorrect pronunciation requiring transcription in square brackets.
"У-ю-юй" exists undeniably in Russian and can be found, for example, in 
*Синтаксический фразеологический словарь русского языка* and others.

Наталья Рубанова - 2015 - ‎Fiction
Ай-яй-яй! Ой-ё-ёй! У-ю-юй! Я никак не могу понять, куда ухнули мои лучшие годы, в какой WC – не подскажете?


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> As I've pointed out in my link to Google Ngrams in my previous post, even if you don't believe the authoritative sources, the spellings _ай-ай-ай_ and _ой-ой-ой_ are simply more common than any other variants, and always have been since the time they first came to be used in writing in the 19th century.


I managed to get some pretty square Google estimates, as opposed to your results.


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> I managed to get some pretty square Google estimates, as opposed to your results.



Google hits numbers are not accurate at all. It often says "100,000 results", but when you flip through the pages you see that there are only 300 or so. Google Ngrams on the other hand are real statistics that count every occurence in the entire Google Books corpus.


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## Rosett

Drink said:


> Google hits numbers are not accurate at all. It often says "100,000 results", but when you flip through the pages you see that there are only 300 or so. Google Ngrams on the other hand are real statistics that count every occurence in the entire Google Books corpus.


All right, then you may want to submit the following query: ай-ай-ай,ай-яй-яй,ай-я-яй(,а-я-яй). See what it does at your end.


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> All right, then you may want to submit the following query: ай-ай-ай,ай-яй-яй,ай-я-яй(,а-я-яй). See what it does at your end.



You could have done that yourself, but here you go. As you can see, _ай-ай-ай_ is still the most common.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> I can suggest the learners stick to Reform 1956 spelling as it is the only one officially standard. The contemporary RAS spelling dictionary hasn't won its official nomination yet and contains few controversial suggestions.


Unfortunately, advice to stick to the Rules-1956 doesn't help too much here, and not only because the language has changed during the last 60 years, but also because the rules of this kind cannot substitute the dictionary, they just do not give any clue for spelling such words as interjection ай-ай-ай. Eligible sources for spelling them are dictionaries and usage (e.g. Russian National Corpus). 
The most contemporary dictionaries and Russian Corpus are explicitely for *ай-ай-ай *and *ой-ой-ой.*
Other spellings are non-standard.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> The most contemporary dictionaries and Russian Corpus are explicitely for *ай-ай-ай *and *ой-ой-ой.*


Another few most contemporary dictionaries (see above) are not for that, and they list "*ай-я(й)-яй*" entry instead.
Their respective frequencies of occurrence are pretty much of the same order, if you look a little bit further into the issue.


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## Drink

Rosett said:


> Their respective frequencies of occurrence are pretty much of the same order, if you look a little bit further into the issue.



Can you show us? No one else seems to be seeing that.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> Another few most contemporary dictionaries (see above) are not for that, and they list "*ай-я(й)-яй*" entry instead.


I'm afraid only one dictionary with an alternative spelling has been provided above - the one edited by Yefremova and published in 2005. 
It's up to a user to decide between this dictionary and the Lopatin's dictionary (ed. 2013), prepared by the Orthography Committee of the Russian Academy of Sciences and approved by the Academy.


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