# plus de tout



## mlmf42

Hello, 

Can someone help with "plus de tout" in the following sentence:

"Étant de 1863, je n'ai plus de camarades dans l'armée, même plus de tout?"

Thank you


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## FRENFR

ne...plus = no longer.  même = even.

Being from 1863, I no longer have any (more) army comrades/comrades in the army.... même (ne) plus de tout... perhaps even nothing at all.  Something along these lines.  Of course, more context will enable a more exact translation, but I see you problem with the sentence.

Hope that helps.


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## mlmf42

I guess along the lines of "maybe (even) none at all?"


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## Uncle Bob

mlmf42 said:


> I guess along the lines of "maybe (even) none at all?"


Yes, that's it:
Born in 1863, I no longer have any army friends. I don't even have any friends at all.


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## mlmf42

Ok, thank you.


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## The_flake

I think there's a mistake in the original sentence. You don't say "plus de tout" but "plus *du* tout."


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## mlmf42

Isn't the use of "de" versus "du" and "de la" a whole 'nother discussion?


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## FRENFR

Well yes, but that shouldn't be the reason to be confused by flake's comments.

ne plus de tout is a common French expression so I am a little surprised that flake says "You don't say "plus de tout" but "plus du tout"".  Of course you could say "I no longer love you at all" which would be along the lines of "Je ne t'aime plus du tout!" but in your sentence, it doesn't mean "du tout" it means "*ne*...plus de" (which is like beaucoup de - you don't modify the 'de') + tout (anything).  But like Uncle Bob said, it most likely refers to friends and the 'tout' is acting as a pronoun for (army) friends in general.

That's why I said more context might help since the 'tout' pronoun may have referred to something in a previous sentence.


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## Wopsy

FRENFR said:


> Well yes, but that shouldn't be the reason to be confused by flake's comments.
> 
> ne plus de tout is a common French expression so I am a little surprised that flake says "You don't say "plus de tout" but "plus du tout"".  Of course you could say "I no longer love you at all" which would be along the lines of "Je ne t'aime plus du tout!" but in your sentence, it doesn't mean "du tout" it means "*ne*...plus de" (which is like beaucoup de - you don't modify the 'de') + tout (anything).  But like Uncle Bob said, it most likely refers to friends and the 'tout' is acting as a pronoun for (army) friends in general.
> 
> That's why I said more context might help since the 'tout' pronoun may have referred to something in a previous sentence.



Sorry, but I don't get what it might mean, even then? 

I feel it should be 'du' as well.


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## Beun

Actually I understand flake's reaction, since I can hardly understand the sentence myself. I'm not saying it's not correct but at the best it's very oddly phrased...


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## FRENFR

http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=%22meme+plus+de+rien%22&btnG=Google+Search

Here are some Googled examples.  Make sure you're looking for non-verbalised sentences.

I'm not saying it's perfect either, but I'm highlighting that ne..plus de and plus du are not the same and cannot be combined.


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## Beun

2 pages ? wow 

I understood all the examples, but I still don't get the opening post


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## FRENFR

Good.  Which is why my first response was vague and said more context would be helpful.  I'm not saying it's perfectly clear and agree with it being a bit strange.


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## Beun

I don't think context would help here. The sentence just sounds wrong.

"même plus de rien" can be used but "même plus de tout" no... That's what I think.


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## Wopsy

Beun said:


> I don't think context would help here. The sentence just sounds wrong.
> 
> "même plus de rien" can be used but "même plus de tout" no... That's what I think.



Me too; 'with 'tous' maybe, but not with 'tout'. I have never heard it.


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## The_flake

Well, okay, the construction "ne ... plus de" is right in the first part: "je n'ai plus de camarades." but you can't say "je n'en ai plus de tout". It doesn't mean anything. "Tout" doesn't mean friends. And I agree with Bob, it means "not at all"
" I don't have friends anymore at all." = "Je n'ai plus d'amis du tout."
If "tout" meant friends it would be "tous" and even then, it wouldn't mean anything!


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## FRENFR

So we can agree that the sentence is dreadful and it should be "même plus de rien".  Perhaps we will learn that the author was not French and it is a foreign-written text, hence the "error"!?


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## Beun

no, "plus de rien" doesn't fit here either. I'd say "je n'ai même plus rien" (meaning "I have nothing left" (no house no wife etc.) ), or "je n'en ai même plus du tout" (meaning "I have no friends at all anymore").

"plus de rien" doesn't fit because "rien" would refer to friends and that's not possible


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## FRENFR

Exactly, but perhaps the writer is exaggerating the fact he has no friends by writing (strangely) that perhaps he has MORE than no friends.  Strange in principle, but not incomprehensible.


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## FRENFR

Anyway, very confusing!

That's why I interpret and not translate strange texts!


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## Beun

well okay... But it would still take me 5 minutes to understand what you mean  sounds really really odd
I still think that if there's a mistake in the original text, "de" should be replaced by "du", instead of replacing "tout" by "rien". It makes much more sense


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## FRENFR

I agree after thinking more about it.  Interpreting would involve ignoring that sentence if it causes too much trouble since you can see it doesn't really add anything significant.  With speaking, the tone of your voice can suggest the same thing as 10 words.  One could laugh and say "....well" - which could put an idea across in a non-verbal way


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## mlmf42

Sorry I have taken so long to come back.  I had moved on with my reading and failed to check my mail.

The quotation is from a letter written in 1937 by Capt. Etienne Beudant cited in an introduction by Patrice Franchet d'Espèrey to Beudant's "Valllerine."
Franchet writes:

"Beudant sent ses forces l'abandonner.  Il est au dernier tournant de sa vie.  Dans une lettre envoyée le 5 mars 1937, il écrit à Marcel Henry: 'Étant de 1863, je n'ai plus de camarades dans l'armée, même plus de tout.  Ceux que je connais, comme le général Decarpentry..."

I don't want to prejudice the discussion, but I will point out that while I don't know Beudant's education, I know that he did not go to St. Cyr but rather joined the army as a trooper in the 23rd dragoons in 1883.  He wrote about 5 books, but maybe he had good editors.  He died in 1949.

Hope this helps.


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## Beun

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting, like I was, that the sentence is not correct ?


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## mlmf42

I'm allowing for that possibility in my own thinking, but I'm not competent to judge.


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## Uncle Bob

Hello again,
The dates you give are helpful. I was wondering it "Etant de 1863..." meant that he was in the (army) "class" of 1863 rather than my suggested "Born in...". However, if he died in 1949 he is highly unlikely to have been 15- 20 years old in 1863 so "Born in.." still remains the most probable.


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## Surfin' Bird

mlmf42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Can someone help with "plus de tout" in the following sentence:
> 
> "Étant de 1863, je n'ai plus de camarades dans l'armée, même plus de tout?"
> 
> Thank you



This definitely has to be a typo.

"Ne plus avoir de [quelque chose]" is fine, of course, but "ne plus avoir de tout" is just NOT correct French.

Here, if we correct the typo, the author means that because he's old, he hasn't got any friends left in the army.
And when he says "même plus *du *tout", he means that not only has he no friends left in the army but that he just has no friends left at all. (Everybody's dead.)


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## mlmf42

It is correct that he was born in '63.

Surfin' bird, I appreciate your interpretation and I am sure that it is correct.  Thank you all for a lively exchange.


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## mlmf42

I am stunned and embarrassed to report that I misread the text and that it is indeed written "plus du tout."  I don't know how or why when I must have read it at least three times, that I got it wrong even when you all were pointing out that it was wrong.  I apologize to all of you and to the spirit of Capt Beudant.  However, the good to come out of it is that I did learn what "plus du tout" means.  Thank you all for being so helpful and I hope that I shall not make such a dumb mistake again.


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## Wopsy

Don't be embarrassed - it was fun while it lasted!!
We all make mistakes ...


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## mlmf42

Did you say your name is "Woopsy?"  Thanks very much.


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