# Closest English equivalent to "uij" diphtong



## linguos

Hi.

How do you pronounce the "uij" diphtong in names such as _Cruijff_? I've heard Polish football commentators pronouncing it as /krojf/ and their English counterparts as sth similar to /krʌ  jf/ or even /kraif/?

I'd like to know the correct pronunciation as well as the closest English equivalent, if there's any, because I'm not sure if I'm person that could reproduce intricate Dutch vowels and diphtongs clearly. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,

We have following threads about ui (uy, uij):
Dutch diphthongs: "ui", "uij" and "uy"
Pronunciation of <ui>

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Peterdg

I don't think the "uij" diphtong exists in modern Dutch. 

We have a sound that is represented by "ui". The ancient way of writing it was "uy" in which the "y" was later replaced by "ij" (I think by accident). Anyway, what I try to say is that "Cruijff" should be pronounced as "Kruif" (Dutch spelling)

Now, as to the closest English sound for "ui": honestly, I can't think of any English sound that comes even near.

Here you can find a tool that will allow you to hear the sound. Select "Dutch (BE) Jeroen" for example and enter the word "kruif". What you'll hear is how "Cruijff" is supposed to be pronounced.


----------



## linguos

@Frank06: Yes, I've seen these threads and they didn't satisfy my curiosity as I'm not familiar with sounds such as [œʏ] or  [ɐʏ]. Also, the way I hear it, is very different from suggested "Englishised" pronunciation as "ew", "au" or "ei". 

@Peterdg: Thank you for your input. You say there's no English equivalent, but what about [ai] as in "my" or "hi"? I mean, listen to this pronunciation of Cruijff's name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JohanCruiff.ogg

To me [kraif] (in English terms) is what springs to my mind. It's maybe not an exact equivalent, but would it be awfully incorrect to use it that way?


----------



## Hitchhiker

I remember in Dutch class that the sound -ui- was described as the Dutch sound -ei- rounded. And the Dutch sound -uu- is -ie- rounded. Rounded as in rounding the mouth for the letter O.


----------



## iKevin

''ei'' is like saying the ''ay'' in ''to *s*ay''...but a bit different...
''ui'' is like saying the French ''oeil'' (eye)..., but you're looking for an English equivalent. ''Ermmm'' is also close, I guess xD... To be honest, I don't think there's an English equivalent.

Or just go to an Albert Heijn and ask for unions. After pronouncing the ''ui'' as ''ou'' (''h*ou*se''), and doing a back-and-forth game with this dude in that store... it's what helped me, lol.


----------



## keithfre

It's essentially an a (as in BrEn 'cat') followed by a German ü (similar to a Scots u/oo as in 'look', 'tune').


----------



## Hitchhiker

To an English speaker it does often sound near to English -ou- as in house, but I think the description I had in Dutch class is closer.       Dutch -ui- = English -ay- (as in say) rounded (Dutch -ei- rounded).      Dutch -uu- = English -ee- (as in see) rounded (Dutch -ie- rounded).


----------



## Yankee_inCA

Weirdly enough, I hear the precise Dutch "ui" in several British dialects, but you have to hear it, unfortunately. The English pick up a lot of Dutch sounds and phrases. They even say "half ten" now for 10:30! (though that would be 9:30 in Dutch if I recall...;o)


----------



## keithfre

Yankee_inCA said:


> The English pick up a lot of Dutch sounds and phrases. They even say "half ten" now for 10:30! (though that would be 9:30 in Dutch if I recall...;o)


The English did not copy that from the Dutch, it's a shortened version of 'half past ten'. 

'Half tien' in Dutch is a remnant of a different system, preserved fully in German, where you can say 'quarter', 'half' and 'three-quarters' referring to the _next_ hour ('viertel Zehn' = 'quarter past nine', 'halb Zehn' = 'half past nine', 'dreiviertel Zehn' = 'quarter to ten'). So 'half tien' does indeed mean 'half past nine', as you say.


----------



## Yankee_inCA

I stand corrected. Thanks for that -- I never would have known!!


----------



## Ciboulette1

I have studied phonetics,

I have listened to both the Flemish (Belgian Dutch) and Dutch Dutch pronunciations of "kruif" in Acapela group - Voice synthesis - Text to Speech | voice solutions as suggested here above,

and I deduct that the sound is to be spelled [ə:i]

in the international alphabetical alphabet (IPA, cf International Phonetic Alphabet - Wikipedia and IPA character picker 20 )

 in which:

- the "ə" is the neutral "e" sound to be found in most unaccentuated English syllables (especially in long words, e.g. at least 3 syllables), e.g. "inadequate" : [in'adəkwət] where the ['] indicates the main tonic accent (thus here on "ad"): you can see that the following two, unaccentuated vowels, although spelled "a" and "e", are pronounced as a neutral [ə] sound:

your mouth is in a neutral position: neither too open nor too closed, and your tongue/lower jaw is neither too low nor too high: NEUTRAL, the sound that comes out when you just only open your mouth, like when you utter some sound expressing disgust: eh!

- the [:] indicates a long vowel;

in English, you have long [ə:] sounds in words like "purpose": ['pə: pəs] because the [ə] is in the accentuated syllable, as in one-syllable words: "spur" [spə:] ; "fur" [fə:] ; etc.

Try replacing the ensuing slight "r" sound (in American English) (represented by a small superscript "r" character in the IPA) by a final [ i ] sound, and you get the Dutch/Flemish "uij"!


You could also spell it [əəi], although that's not how one writes it conventionally.

Please also note that the long [ə:] is longer in Flemish than in Dutch.

In Flemish it's twice the duration of one [ə] sound.
In Dutch for the Netherlands it's only one and a half times the duration of one [ə] sound.

Which might be why you have a harder time deciphering the exact sounds in Dutch for the Netherlands when you are a foreigner, especially if your ear hasn't been trained in deciphering the different sounds. Forget about the spelling, just close your eyes and listen.


----------



## eno2

As for the closest English ui sound:

Try saying <The Yesterday> without spacing in between,  as in: " The 'Yesterday' covers -a song of the Beatles- are numerous".
But stopping short after the Y.

This  should sound like the French word 'deuil' and the ui should sound like the ui in:

lente-ui. (meaning: spring onion)Uitspraak van lente-ui: Hoe wordt lente-ui uitgesproken in het Nederlands
huismuis (meaning: housemouse) Uitspraken voor huismuis (van huismuis naar huismuis)



Ciboulette1 said:


> and I deduct that the sound is to be spelled [ə:i]


 or [əj] or [ə:j ] if you think hearing  a long ə
Or:
ʌy
œy
following IPA




> Please also note that the long [ə:] is longer in Flemish than in Dutch.
> In Flemish it's twice the duration of one [ə] sound.
> In Dutch for the Netherlands it's only one and a half times the duration of one [ə] sound.



To me there's no difference in the pronunciation of ui between BE (Belgian Dutch) and Dutch.


----------



## Ciboulette1

I have listened to the pronunciation of "kruif" in Acapela group - Voice synthesis - Text to Speech | voice solutions, this time with the different voices it offers, not just the first one offered in Belgian Dutch and Dutch for The Netherlands.

In Dutch for the Netherlands, I had only heard the first voice, that of Jasmijn, and indeed her pronunciation of "kruif" is with a much shorter [ə:] sound than the rest!

So maybe SOME Dutch speakers pronounce it in a shorter way than most Dutchmen and than all Flemish people - if we can deduct any statistics from those 4 Dutch voices and 3 Flemish voices (1 of which speaking with 3 different tones, giving a total of 5 voice samples in Flemish).

I am relieved that eno2 has edited his original way of presenting things, because the original, unedited version of his post is the one I received in my Inbox this morning and it was, indeed, rude and devoid of any proof or explanation, whereas I had indicated the link where I had found those voices - which you could have explored too and given your expert opinion on Jasmijn's pronunciation: does it reflect a common way of speaking in the Netherlands? Although you don't seem to have lived in the Netherlands for some time, from your short "bio" here...

Thank you.


----------



## eno2

This thread is about how to pronounce ui in English. You bumped a thread 6 years old to go   off topic and I was so good to add a reaction to your off topic nevertheless, after having given my own approach to the closest English equivalent.
As for discussing  the Dutch pronunciation, Frank gave a link to the existing topics:


Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> We have following threads about ui (uy, uij):
> Dutch diphthongs: "ui", "uij" and "uy"
> Pronunciation of <ui>
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank



I'll add that

there's no need  to publicly comment deleted and edited text of mine that's not visible any more to others.
 I wasn't rude at all.
 I just confirmed that to my best knowledge, all good  Dutch speakers, Flemish and Dutch alike, pronounce 'kruif' the same way.


Ciboulette1 said:


> I Although you don't seem to have lived in the Netherlands for some time, from your short "bio" here...
> Thank you.



I was born and have lived in Flanders for some 60 years. It was  personally denigrating    to suggest I wasn't even a native.
You are entitled  to your own personal non-native interpretations of Dutch pronunciation deduced from internet sounds, but in this case of ui, I don't buy the duration differences between Dutch and Belgian speakers. You might have some case to use a longer IPA symbol [:] though in ui for both of them.
And apart from no duration differences, the shift between the sound  in Dutch and Belgian pronunciations is almost imperceptible to me in Acapela. I could hardly imitate the difference if I wanted to. But perhaps someone who studied phonetics could...


----------



## bibibiben

Ciboulette1 said:


> and I deduct that the sound is to be spelled [ə:i]



This is not how _ui _is commonly pronounced, neither in Flanders nor in the Netherlands.

It's true that unrounding of the first element is an increasingly common phenomenon in certain parts of the Netherlands: [œy] > [ʌ̈y] > [ʌy] > [ɐy]. Word-final pronunciations: [œyj] > [ʌ̈yj] > [ʌyj] > [ɐyj]. _Rounded pronunciation of the second element remains unaffected, though._ Some speakers in certain parts of the Netherlands may resort to [ʌj] or [ɐj] when _ui _is in word-final position, but these are highly stigmatized pronunciations. I suppose they are even non-existent in Flanders.

Some Flemish speakers tend to monophthongize _ui_, pronouncing it [œ:]. In the Netherlands, this rather stigmatized pronunciation can mainly be heard in The Hague area. Monophthongization of _ui_ never entails unrounding.


More information about _ui_:
de Bruyne (pronunciation)


----------



## Yankee_inCA

linguos said:


> Hi.
> 
> How do you pronounce the "uij" diphtong in names such as _Cruijff_? I've heard Polish football commentators pronouncing it as /krojf/ and their English counterparts as sth similar to /krʌ  jf/ or even /kraif/?
> 
> I'd like to know the correct pronunciation as well as the closest English equivalent, if there's any, because I'm not sure if I'm person that could reproduce intricate Dutch vowels and diphtongs clearly.
> 
> There’s a hipster dialect in London that uses this diphthong in place of “ou.” You can hear it on a lot of BBC shows.


----------

