# Запад or закат?



## jasio

Hi,

I'm reading a book by Kirill Eskov, 'Последний кольценосец' (the last ring bearer'). When I was learning Russian, I learned that the West (direction) in Russian is called 'zapad'. Later I learned that there was another word for sunset,  'zakat' , which was a kind of surprise for me, as in my mother tongue the same words are used for both cardinal directions and cardinal times of day. However Eskov consistently uses 'zakat' to denote a direction. Probably the only location where 'zapad'' was used, was a phrase "zapado-zakatiye korolestva'.

Now: is "zakat" a regular word which can be used  for "West" as well, was it a metaphor (like calling an old age an autumn of life), or the author tried to express an additional meaning by using this particular word, as he called the western countries of the middleearth decadent and backward

Thank you very much for your help.

_[Mod note: please use appropriate capitalization]_


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## Rosett

Primary meaning of закат is sunset. Use of закат instead of запад is rather obsolete, but still perfectly understood. Sometimes, it can be used for stylistic purposes, or in combination with запад, as well.
"Идти на закат" can suggest either direct (sunset, west), or metaphoric (decline) meanings. It the given case, it may be a word play.


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## Drink

Basically, both of these words used to have both of these meanings, but now запад is only west and закат is only sunset.


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## Maroseika

The way Yes'kov is using the word закат is quite unusual in modern Russian, especially such expressions like северо-закат, which is even not obsolete as hardly have been ever used in the language. So this is just his own style.


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## Drink

Notice that he is an arachnologist and a paleontologist, not exactly a linguist like Tolkein was. I assume he wanted to sound archaic whether or not it would be historically accurate.


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## Kirill V.

I would never understand _закат_ as the _west_. If I was told _Иди на закат_ I would understand one wants me to go in the direction where the Sun declines (which is different from going west except on one day of the year).

So _запад_ and _закат_ are two different words that mean different things.


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## Rosett

kayve said:


> I would never understand _закат_ as the _west_. If I was told _Иди на закат_ I would understand one wants me to go in the direction where the Sun declines (which is different from going west except on one day of the year).


"An equinox occurs twice a year," - according to Wikipedia.
Also, "С древности человек определял примерное южное направление — по положению солнца в зените, восточное — по месту его восхода, а западное — по месту заката; ..." (_ibidem_).
The following literary examples demonstrate how "закат" can be used unambiguously in the sense of "запад".
"Открывающаяся на закат страна с едва проступающими на плоскости вершинами далеких холмов, над которыми проливается с неба желтый свет, ― все это так прекрасно, что хочется…" [Василий Голованов. Остров, или оправдание бессмысленных путешествий (2002)]
"А Сеятель лишь тем и виноват, Что семя к птицам в глотки угодило,  Без всякой пользы в них перебродило, И улетели птицы на закат". [Марина Палей. Long Distance, или Славянский акцент (1998-1999)]
"Я хожу с тяжелой думой, на закат гляжу понуро, на восток ― ну что ж, коммуна…" [Илья Фоняков. Польша, поэзия, мы // «Звезда», 2001]


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## jasio

Hello everybody, 

Thank you all for your inputs. I appreciate it.


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## rushalaim

The Russian _"East"_ has also two variants: _Восток, Восход_.
I think _"Закат"_ is more poetical. By the way, other languages, for example Semitic, have even three or four names for the _"West"_.


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## igusarov

jasio said:


> I'm reading a book by Kirill Eskov, 'Последний кольценосец' [...] Eskov consistently uses 'zakat' to denote a direction.


This is a fantasy fiction book, isn't it? Personal names, city names and other names used in the book do not necessarily exist in our real world. Even inventing a new shape of the World or a new time measurement system is not uncommon to fantasy writers either... I think his usage of the word "закат" was merely an attempt to invent some name for the cardinal direction, which sounds unusual, and yet is easily associated with a direction in our World. May be that was supposed to immerse the reader into the fantasy...

As for the actual modern Russian, "закат" is definitely not a regular word for "west". It might be used in lyrics and in fairytales as a poetic association with the "west". But I've yet to see a map or a guide book where directions are called "закат" and "восход"... For example, "ветер закатный, 5м/с" in a weather forecast would sound just ridiculous.


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## jasio

Drink said:


> Notice that he is an arachnologist and a paleontologist, not exactly a linguist like Tolkein was.



Yet, he was able to create a very suggestive vision. Nowadays I'm virtually unable to read or watch LOTR without recalling an ultimate solution of the Mordor problem. 

Anyway, the most successful Polish author of fantasy is an economist, and a former leather trader. 



Drink said:


> I assume he wanted to sound archaic whether or not it would be historically accurate.



That's possible. I recognize this trick in Polish, but I don't speak Russian well enough to even  notice it. 



rushalaim said:


> The Russian _"East"_ has also two variants: _Восток, Восход_.
> I think _"Закат"_ is more poetical. By the way, other languages, for example Semitic, have even three or four names for the _"West"_.



Yeap. I realised it some time ago, when I was reading about the Soviet rocket programs.


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## Kirill V.

Rosett said:


> "An equinox occurs twice a year," - according to Wikipedia.



That's right, I should have said _except on two days in a year_

Your other examples are irrelevant to the topic discussed in this thread, since in none of them _закат_ is used in the sense of geographical_ west_. So in no way these examples can suggest that закат and запад are synonyms... It still holds that they are two different words that mean different things and thay can be interchangeable only occasionally in some very specific contexts.


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## jasio

igusarov said:


> This is a fantasy fiction book, isn't it? Personal names, city names and other names used in the book do not necessarily exist in our real world. Even inventing a new shape of the World or a new time measurement system is not uncommon to fantasy writers either... I think his usage of the word "закат" was merely an attempt to invent some name for the cardinal direction, which sounds unusual, and yet is easily associated with a direction in our World. May be that was supposed to immerse the reader into the fantasy...



That's possible. However he uses otherwise quite modern language (ok... I can judge it mainly by the style of the Polish translation), using archaic terms only occasionally. It differs significantly from a language typically used in fantasy books, which usually sound pretty archaic (which is artificial of course, as a real language from even 18th century would be fairly difficult to understand).


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## jasio

kayve said:


> Your other examples are irrelevant to the topic discussed in this thread, since in none of them _закат_ is used in the sense of geographical_ west_.



In the last example it's used in a sense of a 'political West' - and this was what I  had suspected about Eskov's usage. That is, until I've found phrases like 'severo-zakat'.


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## Rosett

kayve said:


> So in no way these examples can suggest that закат and запад are synonyms... It still holds that they are two different words that mean different things and thay can be interchangeable only occasionally in some very specific contexts.


It may be interesting to note that I never said that закат and запад are synonyms, despite the fact that they both stem from the verbs of motion (катить and падать) with regards to the Sun. However, the examples of such usage are numerous and undeniable. If someone says "на закат", it implies "запад" (albeit, maybe, geographically not very precisely), as well. Geographical precision is not a mandatory feature of "запад", either. For example, "Красная Армия продвигалась с боями на запад". Красная Армия наступала и на запад, и на юго-запад, и на северо-запад - это должно быть понятно и без компаса; кроме того, Красная Армия шла не по прямой линии - Красная Армия шла на запад по курганам горбатым, про речным перекатам - т.е., по военным дорогам, менявшим направление.


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## Kirill V.

Но никак не "Красная Армия наступала на закат"


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## Kirill V.

Rosett said:


> It someone says "на закат", it implies "запад" (albeit, maybe, geographically not very precisely), as well.



And if someone says _Я еду в Китай_ it implies he is going east.

The original OP's question was:
_is "zakat" a regular word which can be used for "West"?_

I hope we all agree that the answer is "no".


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## Maroseika

_*Moderatorial:*_
_*Dear forerors, the question of the topic starter has been already answered exhaustively. If you like to discuss the question in the broader perspective, please open a new thread in the appropriate forum.*_ _*Further off-topic posts will be deleted.*_


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