# Pronunciation: palm (calm, almond, qualm - and others with internal "al")



## Yôn

I was reading a book on English a long while back, and it pointed out a difference in how the L in CALM is pronounced, but not pronounced in PALM.  I was shocked, because I have always pronounced the L in PALM.

I checked some dictionaries, and sure enough, PALM has a silent L.  Does anyone else follow this practice?  Are there any other words out there like this?  I've never heard anyone NOT pronounce the L.




Thank for any help,
Jon


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## Bil

I didn't believe you, but you're right!  I must be a neanderthal!  I've been pronouncing the L in palm, psalm, qualm and balm all my life.  Those are all I can think of at the moment, but now I suspect I've been blowing on a lot of others, too.


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## foxfirebrand

I pronounce the L in _palm._  Also the one in _almond,  _which some people not only elide but also change the /aw/ to an /ae/ sound, so that _almond_ rhymes with "Sam and Janet."

You know the song-- Sam and Janet Evening?

I pronounce the L in the other examples mentioned-- the only silent one I can think of is _salmon_, which in fact does rhyme with "Sam and Janet."
.


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## Yôn

"Sam and Janet"?  I'm not sure what you're talking about there...

If NO ONE actually pronounces it without the L, then why on Earth doesn't the dictionary recognize this and change things?

However, maybe there are a lot people who don't pronounce it.




Jon


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## Joelline

I have never pronounced the *L* in palm, almond or salmon. 

Maybe this is a regional thing. I live in Western Pennsylvania. 

Off the top of my head, I can add the following to the non-pronounced *L* list (at least for me):

could
should
would
balm
embalm
talk
walk
balk
chalk
calf
yolk
Lincoln (2nd L only is not pronounced)

I'm sure there are others, as well.


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## Yôn

Joelline said:
			
		

> could
> should
> would
> *balm
> embalm*
> talk
> walk
> balk
> chalk
> calf
> yolk
> Lincoln (2nd L only is not pronounced)



I pronounce the L in the bold words above.  I think most on that list are probably pretty solid--can't be pronounced any other way.



Jon


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## Joelline

Jon,

Did you ever hear (or sing) the old folk spiritual "There is a Balm in Gilead"? If you've heard it, you'd have noticed the L isn't pronounced.  Did you ever watch the TV program, Six Feet Under?  They never pronounced the L in embalm.  Again, maybe this is just a regional thing; I've never even heard anyone pronounce the L's in those two words (though I have heard people pronounce the L in palm and almond).

Joelline


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## captain_rusty

The only word mentioned in the posts above where I *DO* pronounce the L is "almond" 

I come from Manchester, England.


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## Joelline

Well stop it, captain!


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## maxiogee

Joelline said:
			
		

> I have never pronounced the *L* in palm, almond or salmon.
> 
> Maybe this is a regional thing. I live in Western Pennsylvania.



I'm with you Joelline. Never pronounced it either.
I've heard "all-mond" but only from British people, and only a few of them. Delia Smith, the noted culinary personality does it.


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## Joelline

Maxiogee,

We had a lot of Irish immigrants come to this part of America; maybe that's how we learned to pronounce it correctly!  

Joelline


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## Joelline

I just thought of 2 more words where the L is not pronounced:

solder
colonel

The pronunciation-issue was surely one of the reasons I used to misspell these two words so often!


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## Yôn

I pronounce it "ALL-mund".  I'm trying to think of the song in my head...

"sometimes you feel like a nut,
sometimes you don't.
Almond Joy's got nuts,
Mounds don't"

I can't remember how it's pronounced on the comercial.  This must be regional.  I never hear people pronounce it without the L.  When I tell people that the "correct" way is to use a silent L, they look at me like I'm insane.


So, to you people who don't pronounce it, does the L at least modify the sound any?  I mean, do you pronounce BOMB and BALM the same then?




Jon


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## Yôn

Joelline said:
			
		

> I just thought of 2 more words where the L is not pronounced:
> 
> solder
> colonel
> 
> The pronunciation-issue was surely one of the reasons I used to misspell these two words so often!


Colonel has to be one of my favourite words. Honestly, there's not an R in there anywhere. Makes you wonder where the English came up with this stuff. .




Jon


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## diegodbs

I was taught British English and I was taught not to pronounce the L in words such as "calm" or "balm".
And, in the same way, I was taught to pronounce differently "bomb" and "balm", the vowel in "bomb" shorter than the "a" in "balm", and with a different sound too.


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## Joelline

I do pronounce bomb and balm the same way, but again that's probably a regional pronounciation.

Jon, are you sure you're not British? You spelled "favourite" like a BE speaker! We Yanks usually spell it "favorite"! 

Joelline

P.S. We'll all be listening carefully the next time the Almond Joy commercial comes on!


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## captain_rusty

Joelline said:
			
		

> I just thought of 2 more words where the L is not pronounced:
> 
> solder
> colonel
> 
> The pronunciation-issue was surely one of the reasons I used to misspell these two words so often!


 
I don't pronounce the L in colonel, but I do in solder... I can't imagine a Brit not pronouncing it...


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## Joelline

captain,

We are talking about the same word? That's *solder* (as in soldering 2 pieces of metal together) and not soldier (as in the army)? 

I ask because I can't imagine anyone saying SOL-DER, but, then, I've heard you Brits mispronounce   a lot of other words, now that I think about it!  (How's that for a cheeky Yank?)

Joelline


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## captain_rusty

Joelline said:
			
		

> captain,
> 
> We are talking about the same word? That's *solder* (as in soldering 2 pieces of metal together) and not soldier (as in the army)?
> 
> I ask because I can't imagine anyone saying SOL-DER, but, then, I've heard you Brits mispronounce  a lot of other words, now that I think about it! (How's that for a cheeky Yank?)
> 
> Joelline


Yes, sol-der with a sol-dering iron!! 

Do you really pronounce it the same as "soda"??

And don't forget who invented the language!!


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## Brioche

captain_rusty said:
			
		

> Yes, sol-der with a sol-dering iron!!
> 
> Do you really pronounce it the same as "soda"??
> 
> And don't forget who invented the language!!


 
Actually, Daniel Jones' _English Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives an L-less pronunciation of *solder* as an option; 
so it must be an older English pronunciation preserved in the US.


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## captain_rusty

Brioche said:
			
		

> Actually, Daniel Jones' _English Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives an L-less pronunciation of *solder* as an option;
> so it must be an older English pronunciation preserved in the US.


Very probable, yes - I was just kidding...


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## panjandrum

No-l, no-l, no-l, no-l ..... from the top end of The Island.
Not in any of the examples given except solder - which I can't imagine being pronounced without the l.

The OED allows both, but gently points out that the l-less version is favoured in AE.


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## TravisD

In AE we pronounce (well, at least everyone I've heard pronounce the word) the "R" in "solder". It's like "SAW-der". In the words mentioned above, I ALMOST pronounce the "L". It adds  just a bit of flavor to the preceeding vowel. In some of them, it's a  little bit stronger, especially "palm and "balm". "Colonel" being an exception, of course.  According to Wikipedia, the words "colonel" and "coronel" come from middle French with the same meaning. We got the spelling of one and the approximate pronunciation of the other. Apparently, Spain uses "coronel".


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## Yôn

Joelline said:
			
		

> Jon, are you sure you're not British? You spelled "favourite" like a BE speaker! We Yanks usually spell it "favorite"!



I actually spell a lot things funny like that.  Spending so much time in British forums wore off on me a little .

As for SOLDER... WOW!  I could never imagine anyone using the L.  I pronounce it like TravisD: "SAW-der."  

@Brioche -- I don't pronounce it like SODA. Maybe some pronounce it like "SAW-da", but I can't imagine the O being long with a silent L. 

Which reminds me, how do you pronounce the O for people who DO pronounce the L in SOLDER?

Where are the people from who do pronounce L in PALM?  I'm from Minnesota as you can see.



			
				diegodbs said:
			
		

> I was taught British English and I was taught not to pronounce the L in words such as "calm" or "balm".


That's shocking, because I could never imaging leaving the L out of CALM.  However, I just checked Dictionary.com, and sure enough, they say "käm" for pronunciation.  WOW!




Jon


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## diegodbs

> Which reminds me, how do you pronounce the O for people who DO pronounce the L in SOLDER?


 
I was taught to pronounce it like "o" in British English "got".


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## Joelline

The closest I can come to my pronunciation of solder is sah-der with a sah-der-ing iron (which I've never done in my life)! I understand why Travis used SAW-der, but my first syllable doesn't quite (almost, but not quite) rhyme with saw or law.

Rethinking "calm," it seems that sometimes I do pronounce the L and sometimes I don't!    In the Christmas hymn "Silent Night," I don't pronounce the L in "All is calm, all is bright." But I know I do pronounce when I say something like "Calm down!" Hmmm. Never noticed that before. 

captain,
Oh, I know very well who "invented" the language. Anytime something strange about our language comes up, I blame it on the Brits!


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## maxiogee

I'm a sol-der-er also. Never ever heard it any other way.
I pronounce the "o" as in solvent! - where I also pronounce the "l"


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## TravisD

Neither "SAW-der" or "SAH-der" is completely accurate for my pronunciation. When I go from the vowel to the consonant in those words, it's like I'll start moving my tongue to the back of my teeth to make the "L" sound but stop halfway so it's still a vowel-ish sound. I make the vowel sound, then draw it out with the tip of my tongue moving toward the "L" position, then move on to the consonant. Does that make sense? Could I be any less technical? Heh.


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## kertek

I pronounce "solder" exactly like "older" starting with [s], but "solvent" like "solve" ending in [nt]. I pronounce the [l] in both but the "o" sounds differently...


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## captain_rusty

For me the O in "solder" is a diphthong, like "oh!", "coat", etc...

Thanks goodness we don't all speak exactly the same


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## gordonio

I have always pronounced palm, calm, alms, almond, psalm, balm, "without the L sound", i.e. <pa:m>, etc. and cringe whenever I hear the spelling pronunciation of such words. Perhaps this is because of my age (63), background (Chicago, the north side), early education, (public and parochial school). I use the term "spelling pronunciation" to mean pronouncing sounds represented by letters in the spelling of a word which are not represented in its pronunciation. This is the case with all the "_alm" words and there are many other such instances in American English.  One would certainly find it odd to hear "talk, walk, caulk", etc. pronounced with an L sound. Similarly the lack of a T sound in “soften” might indicate that the T in “often” would not be pronounced as it wasn’t originally but spelling pronunciation has made the T pronunciation now common. Maybe someday we’ll pronounce the T in “moisten” based on the analogy of “moist” and “moisture”. A final example of a spelling pronunciation that has affected the general public’s now common pronunciation is that for “arctic”. Growing up in the late nineteen forties and nineteen fifties, I always pronounced and heard others pronounce the words “arctic” and “Antarctic” without the K sound represented by c, i.e. <ar’ tik>. Now it is almost universally pronounced with the K sound. The history of the word shows that “arctic” was originally spelt / spelled “artic” with the c later introduced to make the spelling closer to the original Greek equivalent root. The word’s pronunciation, however, continued into the mid-twentieth century to be predominantly the original one without the K sound. After WWII the spelling pronunciation with the K sound began to be more common and finally the educational system adopted that pronunciation so that today few people younger than 60 pronounce arctic without the K sound. (The dictionary accepts both pronunciations).  Sorry for the long disquisition!


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## panjandrum

Hello gordonio, and welcome to WordReference.
I closed this thread after your post because you have introduced so many different issues of pronunciation.
Pronunciation questions are always difficult in a written-language forum.

panjandrum
(Moderator)


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## Redline2200

I just heard something today that I have never before heard and I would like to know what the rest of the English speakers of this forum think.

How do you pronounce the word "palm"?
I am from the American midwest and to my knowledge, everyone here (and I thought everyone throughout the English speaking world) pronounces it with the "L", as in "pälm."
However, after speaking with a friend of mine in a phonology class, and searching various online dictionaries, the 'correct' pronunciation seems to be with a silent "L" as in "päm."

Is this a generally understood pronunciation that I have been mispronouncing my entire life or do the vast majority of English speakers actually say "päm"?

I am highly interested in the opinions of Americans (from all over the country), Britons, Australians and any other native English speakers. 
Please put in your two cents as this topic interests me and I would like to get as wide a consensus as possible!

<< This thread has been retroactively merged with an earlier thread on the same subject. 
There may be some overlap in the discussion.
Cagey, moderator. >>


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## Dimcl

I do put in a _very slight_ "L" sound.  When I say it, my tongue lifts (slightly) toward the roof of my mouth (behind my upper teeth).  When I say "pom", there's no tongue movement.  Whether other people hear that difference when I say "pa*l*m tree", I'm not sure.  It is not, however, a blatant "L" sound and if I speak rapidly, the odds are that listeners wouldn't hear that slight "L" at all.


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## cycloneviv

I'm with Dimcl in that there's a slight wave of the tongue in the direction of making an "l" sound, but no distinct "l". It sounds, to all intents and purposes, like a slightly rounded "parm". (It seems that the vowel sound is a little different from in Dimcl's  neck of the woods.)


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## dwipper

I can't speak for everyone in the midwestern U.S., but I'm fairly sure I don't say an /l/ in *palm*, despite my best efforts to convince myself otherwise.  I don't know if you can read IPA, but my pronunciation is somewhere between [pʰɑːm] and [pʰɑʊm].  I'm pretty sure this is the case for all back vowels followed by a lateral and nasal.  For lack of a better example, if were to say the name *Volma*, I would probably pronounce it [voːmə] or [voʊmə].


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## Brioche

In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
calm, balm, palm, psalm, qualm,
chalk, talk, walk, 
could, should, would,
almond, salmon,
folk
Lincoln
colonel. [the final L is pronounced, not the one after o]

In non-rhotic English, calm, charm, farm, farther, father, harm, palm all have the same vowel sound.


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## konungursvia

Here we say /pam/, where the /a/ is similar to the /a/ in father.


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## Dimcl

Brioche said:


> In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
> calm, balm, palm, psalm *- I pronounce all of these with the slight "L" sound;*
> chalk, talk, walk, could, should, would *- no "L" sound whatsoever*
> almond *- very strong "L" sound (as in "allmond")*
> salmon, folk, Lincoln, colonel - *- no "L" sound whatsoever*


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## Redline2200

I am with cycloneviv and dimcl, the more I think about it, the more slight my pronunciation of the "L" is, but it is definitely there. 
When I say it without the "L", it sounds to me like 'pom' like what a cheerleader uses (pom-poms), and my pronunciation of 'palm' and 'pom' are definitely different.

I cannot imagine saying words like 'psalm' or 'calm' without the "L", however, saying 'lip balm' like 'lip bom' sounds natural. 

I don't know, this is a weird topic to think about, but I am very grateful for all who responded (and hopefully more still do!).


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## lablady

I have been sitting here practicing Brioche's list of words and have come to two main conclusions. Firstly, it's a good thing everyone else in my household has gone to bed because I undoubtedly look very silly sitting here talking to myself. Secondly, I slightly but definitely pronounce the "L" in "palm".

My list is the same as Dimcl's with one main exception - I also pronounce the "L" in "folk" with the slight "L" sound others have mentioned.

And a minor exception - my pronunciation of "almond" has the same slight "L" sound as "palm".

A quick side note: my mother-in-law pronounces "almond" without the "L", just like "ammon" with the "a" as in "cat". The first time she sent me to the store to buy some, I didn't know what she wanted!


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## Brioche

Dimcl said:


> Originally Posted by Brioche
> In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
> calm, balm, palm, psalm - I pronounce all of these with the slight "L" sound;
> almond - very strong "L" sound (as in "allmond")



There is a tendency to pronounce some words as they are spelt, rather than in the traditional way.

When I was a lad, nobody pronounced the T in _often_, but it's becoming quite common.

My grandfather didn't pronounce the L in golf or falcon. He said _gofe_ and _fawcon_.

I knew an old chap who worked in a brick kiln. Everybody there pronounced it "kill".  Some folk don't pronounce the L in solder and soldering-iron.

In the 1992 Disney film Aladdin they pronounced the W is sword!!!
In my brand of English, a sward is not the same as a sword.


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## Txiri

I pronounce "palm" with an -l- sound.  And in calm, balm;  chalk, talk;  almond, folk, but not the other words in Brioche´s list.  I´m in the southcentral US.


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## dreamlike

<Moderator note: dreamlike's thread has been merged with an earlier thread>

Hi everyone,

I am told by this OALD's entry that the word 'qualm' can be pronounced in two ways  -- (i) /kwɑ:m/ and (ii) /kwɔ:m/. 
Which of these is more common in British English in your experience? Sadly, I can't access my digital Longman pronunciation dictionary which offers the so-called 'preference polls', hence this thread.


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## sound shift

Hello,

I use pronunciation (i). I don't recall hearing (ii) from a speaker of BrE.


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## dreamlike

Thank you for your answer.  I wonder if it is non-existent in British English or just extremely uncommon... whatever the case may be, why did they bother to list in OALD?


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## sound shift

Perhaps my experience is untypical.
My Chambers dictionary (published in the UK) lists (i) and (ii), like the OALD.
My Collins dictionary (published in the UK) lists only (i).


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## pops91710

For what it's worth from an AE perspective – I have never heard anything but (i).


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## sound shift

I'm not surprised about that, pops, because it is often claimed that AE doesn't possess [ɔ:].


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## Loob

Here's what the OED says, dreamlike:


> *Pronunciation:*  			  				Brit.				 			 			/kwɑːm/ 		,   				U.S. 			 			/kwɑ(l)m/ 		,  			/kwɔ(l)m/


For me, it's definitely /kwɑːm/.


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## Rover_KE

For the benefit of those like me who can't do IPA, it rhymes with 'calm'.


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## Wordsmyth

But then, Rover, it all depends on how you pronounce 'calm'. But I grant you that a given person is likely to pronounce the two the same way.

I'm surprised that the OED lists /kwɑ(l)m/ as solely US usage. I had a conversation about this quite recently with a number of BrE speakers (actually about 'palm'), and three out of eight pronounced it with a slight, but audible, _'_l'. 

I don't think I've ever heard /kwɔ:m/.

Ws


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## akhooha

sound shift said:


> I'm not surprised about that, pops, because it is often claimed that AE doesn't possess [ɔ:].


If you're talking about [ɔː], AE certainly does possess that sound, it's just that in certain regions of the US, it's becoming merged with [ɒ].  However, rest assured that [ɔː] is alive and well in the US.


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## dreamlike

Thank you for all your answers. 

I'm really interested to know what my Longmam pronunciation dictionary by professor Wells makes of it (I find it to be quite reliable), whether they list (ii) as an alternative, but I still can't access it... I'll add to the thread when it's possible. 

(ii) is to be found also in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, so that's the third dictionary to recognize /kwɔ:m/. It comes a surprise to me that so far no-one has heard of it. 



Wordsmyth said:


> I had a conversation about this quite recently with a number of BrE speakers (actually about 'palm'), and three out of eight pronounced it with a slight, but


I suppose they same goes for 'calm' with these people, right? That's a bit odd, as I've always thought of [l] as a silent letter in words such as 'palm' or 'calm'.


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## RM1(SS)

dreamlike said:


> I suppose they same goes for 'calm' with these people, right? That's a bit odd, as I've always thought of [l] as a silent letter in words such as 'palm' or 'calm'.


I pronounce the 'l' in all three of those words (as well as in _qualm_ and _balm_).


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## Wordsmyth

dreamlike said:


> _[...]_ I suppose they same goes for 'calm' with these people, right? That's a bit odd, as I've always thought of [l] as a silent letter in words such as 'palm' or 'calm'.


 Silent for some, not for others. It's similar to the situation with the <r> in words such as 'farm': silent in non-rhotic speech, but pronounced by rhotic speakers. I suspect there may be a link between these two phenomena (<l> and <r>), such that rhotic speakers are more likely to pronounce the 'l' in "qualm" — though I've no hard evidence to support that.

Ws


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## Cucchiaione

Wow, me too!  For 55 years I've been pronouncing all those Ls without ever noticing that, according to the dictionaries, no one else was.  Yes, the various dictionaries mention the L sound as a option, perhaps even an aberration, that harks back to the quaint notion that spelling should have some bearing on way words are pronounced.  Anyway, this just blew my mind!  And I guess it’s comforting to realize I’m not completely alone


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## Cucchiaione

And, for what it's worth at this late point in the conversation, I have always pronounced the L in balk.


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## Loob

Hello Cucchiaione - welcome to English Only!

How do you pronounce the other words in Brioche's list in post 37?





Brioche said:


> In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
> calm, balm, palm, psalm, qualm,
> chalk, talk, walk,
> could, should, would,
> almond, salmon,
> folk
> Lincoln
> colonel. [the final L is pronounced, not the one after o]
> ...


PS. Here's another thread on a similar topic: pronunciation: falcon


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## pob14

<< Moderator's note: This thread has been added to a previous discussion.  >>

There was a discussion on Facebook the other day, started by a person (who is a native American English speaker and a former college instructor) baldly asserting that the "L" in "calm" and "palm" is silent.  (He went on to assert that anyone who thought otherwise just didn't understand silent letters, but that's just him. )

I then happened to hear two people on the radio saying "calm" with a silent "L."

This absolutely shocked me; I would no more say "cahm" for "calm" than I would say "bee" for "beef."  But my radio experience suggests that it's been happening, and I just haven't noticed.

So, native speakers:  do you pronounce the "L" in the words "calm" and "palm?"


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## Egmont

Silent in both.


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## boozer

This foreigner agrees - silent in both cases. My carm, cahm and calm are the same


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## PaulQ

pob14 said:


> So, native speakers:  do you pronounce the "L" in the words "calm" and "palm?"


Never ever, no, not at all.  			/kɑːm/ 		 			/pɑːm/


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## pob14

Egmont said:


> Silent in both.


I was actually hoping you would answer, Egmont; in the discussion, I commented that the silent-L sounded "Bostonian" to me.  Is your accent non-rhotic, or as I would put it, do you "pahk ya cah in Hahvahd Yahd?"    Because I'm wondering if this pronunciation of "calm" correlates with the non-rhotic accent.


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## Language Hound

I would never pronounce the "l" in _calm_ or _palm_, but I have heard some people do so.


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## Miss Julie

Language Hound said:


> I would never pronounce the "l" in _calm_ or _palm_, but I have heard some people do so.



I do!


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## Language Hound

Pob, I'm curious as to whether all the people you know pronounce the "l" in _calm_ and _palm_,
making this a sort of regional pronunciation.
In my experience, not pronouncing it has nothing to do with "Bostonian" pronunciation.


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## sdgraham

Miss Julie said:


> I do!



I (raised in Chicago, where Miss Julie lives) do so as well. The 'l' is subtle, but it's there.

When I was a wee lad, we had a family friend who pronounced it "pahllum."


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## cyberpedant

I'm a rhotic Brooklynite and would never pronounce the silent L in calm or palm.


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## Egmont

pob14 said:


> I was actually hoping you would answer, Egmont; in the discussion, I commented that the silent-L sounded "Bostonian" to me.  Is your accent non-rhotic, or as I would put it, do you "pahk ya cah in Hahvahd Yahd?"    Because I'm wondering if this pronunciation of "calm" correlates with the non-rhotic accent.


I'm afraid this has nothing to do with a Boston accent. I grew up in areas where the letter "r" is pronounced (rhotic pronunciation), learned to speak English that way, and moved to Massachusetts for graduate school - well after my speech patterns were formed.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

What I don't understand is the relationship between a non-rhotic accent and the pronunciation of the "el" in these words. 
The (once) so-called RP (Received Pronunciation), or BBC English, is universally known as a non-rhotic parlance, and yet no one with that accent would ever dream of pronouncing the "el".

GS


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## pob14

Loob said:


> There's a previous thread here, pob: Pronunciation: palm (calm, almond - and others with internal "al")


Hm . . . perhaps there should be a rule requiring people to search before asking.    Off to report myself . . .

What I glean from the two threads is that the pronunciation of the L seems to be the outlier, and perhaps limited to the Midwestern US.


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## MarcB

I am from the Northeast and a rhotic speaker. I pronounce the l but ever so slightly. I hear a variety of pronunciations with and without the l.


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## Truffula

I usually pronounce the L in both "calm" and "palm" but sometimes if I'm speaking faster or less formally the L sound will vanish.  I'm in the south-eastern part of the USA but have also lived in the midwest and northeast.


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## natkretep

Pob, presumably you have /l/ in _alms, __almond, psalm, qualm_ and _balm _too?

I have never heard a BrE speaker put in /l/ for _calm_, and was interested to hear Paul Hollywood (of the _Great British Bake-Off_ fame) pronounce _almond_ with the /l/ the other day.


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## Wordsmyth

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> What I don't understand is the relationship between a non-rhotic accent and the pronunciation of the "el" in these words.
> The (once) so-called RP (Received Pronunciation), or BBC English, is universally known as a non-rhotic parlance, and yet no one with that accent would ever dream of pronouncing the "el".


 But that's not what pob said, GS. He was wondering whether the *lack* of 'L' was linked to non-rhotic speech. I had the same thought in post #56.


natkretep said:


> _[...] _I have never heard a BrE speaker put in /l/ for _calm_, and was interested to hear Paul Hollywood (of the _Great British Bake-Off_ fame) pronounce _almond_ with the /l/ the other day.


 Never? But such people do exist. As I mentioned earlier ...


Wordsmyth said:


> _[...]_ I'm surprised that the OED lists /kwɑ(l)m/ as solely US usage. I had a conversation about this quite recently with a number of BrE speakers (actually about 'palm'), and three out of eight pronounced it with a slight, but audible, _'_l'. _[...]_


 As for 'almond', I think that's in a different category. It always strikes me as unusual when I (occasionally) notice someone pronouncing it _without_ the 'l'.

Ws


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## thegreathoo

Soldering iron is pronounced like saudering iron, afaik.  But a soldier is pronunced like hiphop musicians do it, Soulja.


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## natkretep

Wordsmyth said:


> As for 'almond', I think that's in a different category. It always strikes me as unusual when I (occasionally) notice someone pronouncing it _without_ the 'l'.


You're saying that the normal pronunciation of _almond_ is with the <l>? Yet both WR dictionaries (Random House and Collins)indicate _only _l-less pronunciations.

I have the /l/ in _solder_ or _soldier_. It's a different vowel.


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## Cagey

foxfirebrand said:


> I pronounce the L in _palm._  Also the one in _almond,  _which some people not only elide but also change the /aw/ to an /ae/ sound, so that _almond_ rhymes with "Sam and Janet."
> 
> [....]


These are the two pronunciations of _almond_  I heard growing up in rural California. I thought of _all-mond_ as the normal pronunciation. The other pronunciation, without an _L_ and modified _ae_ seemed 'fancy' to me.  

(Foxfirebrand gives his location as _The Northern Rockies_, and describes his native language this way:_ Southern AE greatly modified by a 1st-generation Scottish-American mother, and growing up abroad.)_

I pronounce the _L_ in _calm, _ _balm_, and _soldier_, but not in _solder_.  (The vowels are different too.)


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## RM1(SS)

I posted a comment somewhere upthread, but not on Brioche's list.


Brioche said:


> In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
> calm, balm, palm, psalm, qualm,
> chalk, talk, walk,
> could, should, would,
> almond, salmon,
> folk
> Lincoln
> colonel. [the final L is pronounced, not the one after o]


I pronounce the L in the first five words, as well as in _almond_.  I also pronounce the L in _balk_, which was mentioned elsewhere in this thread..  The vowel I use in all seven words is, as far as I can tell, the same vowel I use in _all_, _ball_, and _paw_, but which I do not use in _father_, _bother_ or _ha!_ (though I do use the same vowel in those three words).


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## natkretep

People might find the JWL Phonetic Blog (Elisions and Insertions of Ells) of interest:


> So-called 'silent' ells survive in about thirty mostly either very or fairly familiar simple common-type words a few of which have minority forms in which an /l/ has been introduced or re-introduced. They are _almond_, _alms_, _balm_, _calm_, _malmsey_, _qualm_, _palm_, _psalm_, _salmon _/sӕmən/; _calf_, _half_, _calve_, _halve_; _calk_, _stalk_, _talk_, _walk_; _baulk_, _caulk_, _haulm_; _folk_, _yolk_, _holm_; _could_, _should_, _would_. Regarding the item _could_, OED has the comment "The current spelling is erroneous: _l_ began to be inserted about 1525, apparently in mechanical imitation of _should _and _would_, where an etymological _l_ had become silent...". LPD3* lists subvariant forms with /l/ of _almond_, _calm _and _palm _on the last of which 85% of the respondents to a questionnaire preferred the form with no /l/. The items _alms_, _almond_, _balm_, _qualm _and _psalm _by contrast have their /l/-containing variants labelled with the § "non-RP" sign, judgments that one isnt inclined to dispute.



*_Longman Pronunciation Dictionary_, 3rd edition.


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## Wordsmyth

natkretep said:


> You're saying that the normal pronunciation of _almond_ is with the <l>? Yet both WR dictionaries (Random House and Collins)indicate _only _l-less pronunciations. _[...] _


 I'm not saying it's 'normal', because the norm used by dictionaries for BrE pronunciation is RP (which I believe is currently spoken by a minority, i.e. less than half, of the UK population). But I am saying it's quite usual, and (perhaps by happenstance) most people I hear saying 'almond' do pronounce the 'l' — not that I discuss almonds with everyone I meet.

I've just quickly browsed a lot of UK forums and blogs (too many to quote or link to), and I found dozens of people who say they pronounce the 'l' in 'almond'. It's not particularly regional either: they include people who variously describe themselves as being from England, Scotland, South Wales, North-East England, Yorkshire, South-West England, and London.

Although the WordReference Random House Learner's Dictionary of American English gives only 'l-less' pronunciations, other AmE dictionaries (Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, American Heritage, Merriam-Webster, Dictionary.com, ...) include pronunciations with the 'l'.

Ws


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## pob14

natkretep said:


> Pob, presumably you have /l/ in _alms, __almond, psalm, qualm_ and _balm _too?


Yes.  Well, I'm not too sure about "balm;" I may have said it about twice in my life, but I'm sure I would pronounce the L.

The others that have been mentioned - calf, chalk, balk, yolk, and so on - no L.

I find "halve" to be an interesting case.  On the admittedly rare occasions I've had to use it, I've deliberately pronounced the L (very slightly), to distinguish it from "have," but a brief search of dictionaries shows that I'm just completely wrong about that one.  I'm not sure I've ever actually heard it spoken (or more likely I did, but just took it for "have" when I wasn't paying close attention); I need to pay more attention to my wife's cooking shows.


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## JeffinHK

I'm from a small town in NE Texas. I have never pronounced the L's in calm, balm, palm, psalm, qualm, folk, yolk, Holmes, Polk, halve, calve, calf, salve, and solder. Up through at least the 1970's, many elderly, working-class folk from my hometown also had silent L's in help, bulb, wolf, and probably some other words, but those pronunciations are near-extinct now.


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## Andygc

natkretep said:


> You're saying that the normal pronunciation of _almond_ is with the <l>? Yet both WR dictionaries (Random House and Collins)indicate _only _l-less pronunciations.
> 
> I have the /l/ in _solder_ or _soldier_. It's a different vowel.


The OED has three BE pronunciations for almond:  Brit.  /ˈɑː(l)mənd/ ,  /ˈalmənd/ ,  /ˈɒlmənd/.  I have listened to the linked sound files (subscription only). Mine is the third. My wife's is the second.


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## RM1(SS)

What's that vowel in the second one, Andy?  I've been trying to sort out this Wiki article*, and that symbol isn't shown.


* Which groups together words that I would separate, and separates words that I would group together.


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## Loob

RM1(SS) said:


> What's that vowel in the second one, Andy?  I've been trying to sort out this Wiki article*, and that symbol isn't shown...


 The OED and other Oxford dictionaries use /a/ to represent the  BrE TRAP vowel for which other dictionaries use /æ/. The reason has to do with the way the RP pronunciation of the vowel has changed over the years. Phoneticians agree that the sound has changed, but not all see it as a good idea to use a different symbol as a result. (For more, see this paper by John Wells: _IPA Transcription Systems for English._)


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## RM1(SS)

Thank you, Loob.


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## merquiades

Interesting thread. I came here as someone told me the L was supposed to be pronounced in words like _calm_ and _palm_.  I pronounce all (AL +consonant) words with a silent L.  Without a trace even. Well, at least that's true for all the words I have seen listed here in this thread. Looks like both versions are widespread.


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## RM1(SS)

Yôn said:


> As for SOLDER... WOW! I could never imagine anyone using the L. I pronounce it like TravisD: "SAW-der."


"Sodder" for me, with the same vowel as sod.  (It's the same vowel as in cot.).


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## kentix

Or like fodder wih an s.


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## JulianStuart

merquiades said:


> Looks like both versions are widespread.


Good thread summary


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## merquiades

JulianStuart said:


> Good thread summary


Yes, 92 posts to come to this conclusion.  I don't think we can go deeper than that.    I wonder if the people who pronounce the L have been affected by spelling or if they just kept the original pronunciation..

Incidentally,  I don't pronounce the L in Solder, but I don't say _sodder_ like _fodder_.  I'd say _saw der_.


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## sdgraham

merquiades said:


> I wonder if the people who pronounce the L have been affected by spelling or if they just kept the original pronunciation..


After nearly eight decades, I can't remember ever saying it any other way than with an 'l' sound.
Now I wonder how the ell-less folks deal with Palma, the capital of Mallorca?


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## JulianStuart

sdgraham said:


> After nearly eight decades, I can't remember ever saying it any other way than with an 'l' sound.
> Now I wonder how the ell-less folks deal with Palma, the capital of Mallorca?


Now we get into proper names and language preference (English, Spanish, Catalan) matters: perhaps someone unfamiliar with this might pronounce all three l's (or none of them) in the Palma, Mallorca as l's  
Wiki offers


> *Palma*, formerly *Palma de Mallorca*[3] (/ˈpɑːlmə/ or /ˈpɑːmə/, Catalan: [ˈpalmə], Spanish: [ˈpalma]


and, believe it or not


> *Mallorca* (Catalan: [məˈʎɔɾkə], Spanish: [maˈʎoɾka]) or *Majorca* (English: /məˈjɔːrkə, -ˈdʒɔːr-/ mə-YOR-kə, -⁠JOR-)


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## merquiades

sdgraham said:


> After nearly eight decades, I can't remember ever saying it any other way than with an 'l' sound.
> Now I wonder how the ell-less folks deal with Palma, the capital of Mallorca?


Well,  I'd pronounce it with the L,  the Spanish way.


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## RM1(SS)

Beautiful place.  I pronounce the 'L', and use the vowel of "father", not of "palm".


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## Loob

I don't think I have "zero-l" in any word with more than one syllable* - so, for me, _almond, falcon, solder _all have /l/.

.....
* I'm discounting, here, contractions like _couldn't _and_ wouldn't. _And comparatives/superlatives: _calmer, calmest.
* _Oh, and place-names like _Lincoln. _Place-names are often odd.


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## natkretep

Loob said:


> I don't think I have "zero-l" in any word with more than one syllable* - so, for me, _almond, falcon, solder _all have /l/.


With the /l/ in _salmon _too?


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## dojibear

My "calm" is different than my "cam" (it uses a different vowel), but my "calm" is different from my "column" (which starts with the same vowel as "calm"). If I pronounced the L, "calm" would sound the same as "column". 

So I don't pronounce the L sound, but I pronounce "al<consonant>" differently than "a<consonant>".

Similarly palm/pam and other word pairs: I pronunce them with a different vowel.


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## Loob

natkretep said:


> With the /l/ in _salmon _too?


Ah ... Bang goes my theory that it's related to syllables!


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## natkretep

Loob said:


> Ah ... Bang goes my theory that it's related to syllables!


Just a tiny exception, and what's life with no exceptions, Mrs Loob. Your rule still accounts for the other examples.


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## JulianStuart

merquiades said:


> Yes, 92 posts to come to this conclusion.  I don't think we can go deeper than that.    I wonder if the people who pronounce the L have been affected by spelling or if they just kept the original pronunciation..
> 
> Incidentally,  I don't pronounce the L in Solder, but I don't say _sodder_ like _fodder_.  I'd say _saw der_.


Does anyone omit the L from shoulder?  For me it rhymes with solder (the l is distinctly present in both).


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## Loob

JulianStuart said:


> Does anyone omit the L from shoulder?  For me it rhymes with solder (the l is distinctly present in both).


I can't recall ever hearing a silent-l _shoulder _myself_, _and the OED doesn't show that as an option. (It gives both _with-l _and_ without-l _pronunciations for _solder_._)_


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## kentix

I think in some non-standard dialects you probably do hear that. Something like showda. I can't prove it but it sounds very plausible when I say it to myself just based on accents I remember from over the years.


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## PaulQ

kentix said:


> I think in some non-standard dialects you probably do hear that. Something like showda.


That is absolutely typical of the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire accent.
"Wozzamarra wi' y'?"
"I 'ot me showda!"

On the silent "l" in general, for me, this is definitive:


Brioche said:


> In standard BE, there is no L sound in these words:
> calm, balm, palm, psalm, qualm,
> chalk, talk, walk,
> could, should, would,
> almond, salmon,
> folk
> Lincoln
> colonel. [the final L is pronounced, not the one after o]
> 
> In non-rhotic English, calm, charm, farm, farther, father, harm, palm all have the same vowel sound.


 (and this despite Mrs Q insisting on /ˈalmənd/)


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## Loob

And _falcon,_ Paul?


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## PaulQ

Self and wife are separated again 
Me: /ˈfalk(ə)n/
MrsQ: /ˈfɒlkən/
(Fortunately, they don't eat almonds...)


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## RM1(SS)

dojibear said:


> My "calm" is different than my "cam" (it uses a different vowel), but my "calm" is different from my "column" (which starts with the same vowel as "calm"). If I pronounced the L, "calm" would sound the same as "column".


Do you have the cot-caught merger?


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## Loob

PaulQ said:


> Self and wife are separated again
> Me: /ˈfalk(ə)n/
> MrsQ: /ˈfɒlkən/


I see you both have an /l/ in the word, though. (So do I.)


kentix said:


> Something like showda.


Could that perhaps be a representation of a dark /l/? The existence of two different sorts of /l/ in some dialects may complicate the picture....
For me, "shoulder" definitely doesn't rhyme with "Yoda".


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## kentix

Loob said:


> Could that perhaps be a representation of a dark /l/? The existence of two different sorts of /l/ in some dialects may complicate the picture....
> For me, "shoulder" definitely doesn't rhyme with "Yoda".


African American Vernacular English/Pronunciation - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

_The sounds* l* and *r*:

When they do not occur at the beginning of a word *l* and *r *often undergo a process known as "vocalization" and are pronounced as *uh*. This is most apparent in a post-vocalic position (after a vowel). For instance 'steal', 'sister', 'nickel' become *steauh*, *sistuh*, *nickuh*._


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## GreenWhiteBlue

The "L" in my version of palm, calm, salmon, etc. is silent.  It might be noticed that the "L" in the written version of those words was one that had largely dropped out of the spoken form when the word turned from Latin to French, from which it then came into English, but was reinserted in the written form in order to recall the original Latin root word, rather like the re-insertion of the silent "B" into the Middle English word _dette,_ as a way of pointing to the Latin _debitum_.


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## merquiades

Loob said:


> And _falcon,_ Paul?


Wow, I have finally found a word with al+consonant where I actually pronounce the L.
It might be because I use the a in bad there, not the a in small.


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## Loob

merquiades said:


> Wow, I have finally found a word with al+consonant where I actually pronounce the L.
> It might be because I use the a in bad there, not the a in small.


Ah, you've probably got lots of words where you pronounce that /l/, merq. _Alchemist? Balkans?_

There are a number of words where the  written "l" is silent.  I think _falcon_ used to be one of them. But the number is reducing - probably, as you suggested, as a result of "spelling pronunciations".


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## PaulQ

I pronounce the "l" in "palmate". This may be "spelling pronunciations" but I also hear it from zoologists.


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## merquiades

Alchemist I do and Albert too,but not Balkans.  
It's the same vowel difference as before.


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## natkretep

PaulQ said:


> Self and wife are separated again
> Me: /ˈfalk(ə)n/
> MrsQ: /ˈfɒlkən/
> (Fortunately, they don't eat almonds...)


And I have a different vowel. Lexico gives us: 
*/ˈfɔː(l)k(ə)n/ /ˈfɒlk(ə)n/*
falcon | Definition of falcon by Lexico

I have /ˈfɔːlkən/ myself.


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