# حتى (in order to)



## Hemza

Hello everyone:

I would like to know if "7atta" can be used with the meaning "in order to + verb (present tense)"? Because I red it somewhere on internet but at my Arabic lessons, my teacher told me that it's not possible...

Example: "aqra2 kitab 7atta ata3allam 7aja jadida" (I'm reading a book in order to learn something new). Is it correct? Or am I obliged to use "li" (li ata3allam...)?

Shukran li jami3a.


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## clevermizo

In varieties of colloquial Arabic it is definitely the case that حتى is used this way, however in standard Arabic ل or لكي is often preferred. That said, I'm not sure if it's officially 'wrong' or not to use حتى. We'll have to see what others reply.


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## إسكندراني

I think it's correct - it's commonly used in classical Arabic.
In fact, I don't think dialects use it - they use عشان منشان لأجل باش إلخ


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## abdulwahid

When حتى preceeds a verb it can have two meaning in classical Arabic: "untill" and "in order to"

اقرأ حتى تحفظَ read untill you memorize, or read in order to memorize


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## Hemza

clevermizo said:


> In varieties of colloquial Arabic it is definitely the case that حتى is used this way, however in standard Arabic ل or لكي is often preferred. That said, I'm not sure if it's officially 'wrong' or not to use حتى. We'll have to see what others reply.



I know about dialects and as "iskandarani" says, it's not used with the meaning "in order to". Thanks though for your reply .



abdulwahid said:


> When حتى preceeds a verb it can have two meaning in classical Arabic: "untill" and "in order to"
> 
> اقرأ حتى تحفظَ read untill you memorize, or read in order to memorize



Thanks, I know about the meaning "until", because this is how it's used in dialects, but in Standard Arabic, I wanted to be sure that if the verb which follows حتى at the present/future tense, the meaning will be "in order to". So I think my teacher is wrong.


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## Bakr

أحدهم قال 
أَموتُ وفي نَفسي مِنْ حَتَّى شيءٌ


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## Hemza

Bakr said:


> أحدهم قال
> أَموتُ وفي نَفسي مِنْ حَتَّى شيءٌ



In this sentence, it means "nothing", right? It makes me think about "7atta 7aja/shay".


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## Bakr

C'est très ancien, il dit qu'il va mourir sans cerner toutes les signification (et utilisations) du mot:  حتى !
Mais ne le confond pas avec "7atta" dans notre dialecte!


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## Arabic Guru

Hemza said:


> Hello everyone:
> 
> I would like to know if "7atta" can be used with the meaning "in order to + verb (present tense)"?


It can, just in *one* case: لا ينتصب المضارع بعد [حتى]، إلا إذا كان زمانه *للمستقبل*
We can say: أدرسُ حتى أنجحَ in the meaning of أدرسُ كي أنجحَ I'm studying in order to succeed 
أي أنها تكون بمعنى "كي" إذا وقعت قبل المضارع المستقبل، وإن *لم يدل* زمان الفعل المضارع على المستقبل وجب *رفع الفعل 
*


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## Hemza

Bakr said:


> C'est très ancien, il dit qu'il va mourir sans cerner toutes les signification (et utilisations) du mot:  حتى !
> Mais ne le confond pas avec "7atta" dans notre dialecte!



Ah, merci, je croyais que ça avait le même sens que "7atta" (7aja/shay) en Marocain 



Arabic Guru said:


> It can, just in *one* case: لا ينتصب المضارع بعد [حتى]، إلا إذا كان زمانه *للمستقبل*
> We can say: أدرسُ حتى أنجحَ in the meaning of أدرسُ كي أنجحَ I'm studying in order to succeed
> أي أنها تكون بمعنى "كي" إذا وقعت قبل المضارع المستقبل، وإن *لم يدل* زمان الفعل المضارع على المستقبل وجب *رفع الفعل
> *



Thanks. If I understood well (unfortunately, my fu97a is not really good ) you mean that it's for something which will come later, example: "ashtaghal *7atta* a9ba7 mudir al sharika"? If my example is good, so it means it's the same as "ashataghal *li* a9ba7 mudir al sharika"?


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## إسكندراني

نعم هذا ما قصده يا حمزة. وبالمقابل لا يمكن استعمالها هكذا في الماضي، أليس كذلك؟ لأن «درست حتى نجحت» تفيد أن الدراسة استمرت إلى حين النجاح، وليس أن الدراسة كان الغرض منها النجاح
ما رأينا إذن في جملة مثل «درست حتى أنجح» أهي غير صحيحة؟


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## Hemza

إسكندراني said:


> نعم هذا ما قصده يا حمزة. وبالمقابل لا يمكن استعمالها هكذا في الماضي، أليس كذلك؟ لأن «درست حتى نجحت» تفيد أن الدراسة استمرت إلى حين النجاح، وليس أن الدراسة كان الغرض منها النجاح
> ما رأينا إذن في جملة مثل «درست حتى أنجح» أهي غير صحيحة؟



First of all, I hope I understood well what you wrote .

Thank you for confirm that what wrote "Arabic Guru" is what I understood ahahahah!!

As I red, "darasstu 7atta anja7" is false, the verb must be under the form "adrussu".


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## إسكندراني

Apparently; I want Arabic Guru to get back to me on that. It's widely used but my impression from his message is that it's wrong.


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## Arabic Guru

Hemza said:


> you mean that it's for something which will come later, example: "ashtaghal *7atta* a9ba7 mudir al sharika"? If my example is good, so it means it's the same as "ashataghal *li* a9ba7 mudir al sharika"?


Yes, they are same in “function” _li_ لِ and _7atta_ حَتّى  and _kay_  كَيْ. But this is not a good example! Not everyone has to work/or is working to become a manager, but to earn a living.
On the other hand, you can’t use lam and 7atta together like this: (لحتّى ) This is not true in Arabic.


إسكندراني said:


> ما رأينا إذن في جملة مثل «درست حتى أنجح» أهي غير صحيحة؟


Yes, it’s true. درستُ حتى أنجحَ like أثابرُ على اجتهادي حتى أنجحَ just to mention that حتى here is حرف جرّ ونصب 
إذ تدخل على الفعل المضارع المستقبل فتنصبه بـ " أن" المضمرة وجوباً بعدها

والإعراب هكذا

حتى: حرف جرّ ونصب مبني على السكون 
أنجحَ: فعل مضارع منصوب بـ " أن " المضمرة وجوباً بعد حتى، وعلامة نصبه الفتحة الظاهرة. وفاعله ضمير مستتر فيه وجوباً تقديره " أنا
والمصدر المؤوّل من " أن " المضمرة والفعل " أنجح"  والتقدير: نجاحي في محل جر بـ حتّى


Hemza said:


> As I read, "darasstu 7atta anja7a" is false, the verb must be under the form "adrussu".


It's true, like: سافرتُ لأكملَ دراستي and سافرتُ كي أتعلَّمَ .All verbs أنجحَ  , أكملَ , and أتعلّمَ are present tense _for_ future للمستقبل


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## Hemza

Arabic Guru said:


> Yes, they are same in “function” _li_ لِ and _7atta_ حَتّى  and _kay_  كَيْ. But this is not a good example! Not everyone has to work/or is working to become a manager, but to earn a living.
> On the other hand, you can’t use lam and 7atta together like this: (لحتّى ) This is not true in Arabic.
> 
> 
> It's true, like: سافرتُ لأكملَ دراستي and سافرتُ كي أتعلَّمَ .All verbs أنجحَ  , أكملَ , and أتعلّمَ are present tense _for_ future للمستقبل



ahahah, I know, it's just an example which came in my mind  randomly.

Oh ok, so after "7atta", "ki" and "li" are always at mudhari3. Thank you .


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## Arabic Guru

Hemza said:


> Oh ok, so after "7atta", "ki" and "li" are always at mudhari3.



After 7atta could be also a noun and past-tense verb, as in:

 وَالْقَمَرَ قَدَّرْنَاهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّى عَادَ كَالْعُرْجُونِ الْقَدِيمِ)  - يس: 39) 
سَلَامٌ هِيَ حَتَّى مَطْلَعِ الْفَجْرِ) - القدر: 5)


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## Hemza

Arabic Guru said:


> After 7atta could be also a noun and past-tense verb, as in:
> 
> وَالْقَمَرَ قَدَّرْنَاهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّى عَادَ كَالْعُرْجُونِ الْقَدِيمِ)  - يس: 39)
> سَلَامٌ هِيَ حَتَّى مَطْلَعِ الْفَجْرِ) - القدر: 5)



Shukran ya akhi, but if I understood your sentences, in this context, it means "until", right? I know about this meaning, I was just asking about the meaning "in order to", to show my teacher it exists . Anyways, thank you .


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## Arabic Guru

Hemza said:


> Shukran ya akhi, but if I understood your sentences, in this context, it means "until", right? I know about this meaning, I was just asking about the meaning "in order to", to show my teacher it exists . Anyways, thank you .



You are welcome ya Akhi Hemza  Just to keeping you and the readers informed in what _7atta_ precedes.


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## Hemza

Arabic Guru said:


> You are welcome ya Akhi Hemza  Just to keeping you and the readers informed in what _7atta_ precedes.



Actually, my name is "حمزة"  but when I subscribed, the forum didn't accept "hamza" so I made a "e" . Yeah, that's a good idea.

Thank you all for your replies .


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## abdulwahid

> حتى: حرف جرّ ونصب مبني على السكون


 It can't be harf jarr and harf nasb at the same time. The verb is mansub because of أن المضمرة


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## Arabic Guru

abdulwahid said:


> It can't be harf jarr and harf nasb at the same time. The verb is mansub because of أن المضمرة[/COLOR]



Some authors say that حتى can be both (see attachment) and here, because it تدخل على *الفعل المضارع* *فتنصبه* بـ " أن" المضمرة وجوباً بعدها، و*المصدر المؤول* من " أن" المضمرة والفعل في محل *جر*

However, this doesn't neglect the fact that حتى acts as حرف جر and حرف ابتداء and حرف عطف which is لا محل له من الإعراب in Arabic grammar.


References:
1-
2-
3-
4-


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## abdulwahid

In the link above it says:
أنجحَ: فعل مضارع منصوب بأن المضمرة بعد حتى وعلامة نصبه الفتحة الظاهرة
والمصدر المؤول مجرور بـ (حتى)

So hatta is not harf nasb, but harf jarr​


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