# Hindi: सब्र vs सबर



## amiramir

Hello,

In educated urban speech, should I pronounce the word for patience as  सब्र ( sa-br) or as सबर (sa-bar)? To be clear, I'm asking about correct pronunciation, not orthography.

(I think धैर्य is a beautiful word, but at least in my Delhi family, I've never heard it. I don't know about other people.)


I had asked about fakr a few months back and everyone told me to pronounce it as written (i.e. fa-kr) and not fa kar. I can get on board with that. But I wasn't sure about sabar/sabr.

Thanks


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## tonyspeed

You do realise this is a three way choice: sabra,  sabar,  sabr.

I personally prefer 2 or 3 because it is closest to the original pronunciation.  Sabra to me is a modern way of pronunciation by those not familiar with Urdu pronunciation who possibly learned the word from print.

The only difference between sabr and sabar is you minimise the second अ sound without introducing an अ sound at the end.


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## amiramir

If by sabra, you mean सब्रा, that is hideous. I've of course heard the 2 variants I asked about above, but सब्रा I have never heard in my life.


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## tonyspeed

amiramir said:


> If by sabra, you mean सब्रा, that is hideous. I've of course heard the 2 variants I asked about above, but सब्रा I have never heard in my life.



No, not "aa", "a". There are quite a few Hindi speakers that add 'a' at the end as in "CHaatra" meaning student and "mitra" meaning friend.  Some will pronounce the ending 'a' sound louder than others. 'a' is different from 'aa'.


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## tarkshya

amiramir said:


> (I think धैर्य is a beautiful word, but at least in my Delhi family, I've never heard it. I don't know about other people.)



You may have heard धीरज , which is the prakrit, and more common variant of धैर्य.


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## mundiya

tarkshya said:


> You may have heard धीरज , which is the prakrit, and more common variant of धैर्य.



I agree with your suggestion of धीरज, but the Prakrit is _dhīria_ and not _dhīraj_ as you can see below. The word Prakrit seems to be getting misused by some on this forum. It refers specifically to a set of Middle Indo-Aryan languages. Even saying "Prakrit-derived" may not be accurate because it's uncertain whether _dhīraj_  is modified as a Sanskrit loanword or via Prakrit. It's better to just say that "_dhīraj_" is a Hindi form and "dhairya" a Sanskrit form.

dhīryà 6818 *dhīryà* n. ʻ intelligence ʼ RV. 2. *dhīríya -- * (metr. RV) n. [dhīˊra -- ]
1. P. _dhijā_ m. ʻ trust, reliance ʼ; G. _dhīj_ f. ʻ ordeal ʼ.
2. Pk. _dhīria_ -- n. ʻ courage ʼ; K. _dīrī_ f. ʻ firmness of mind ʼ; Si. _diriya_ ʻ courage ʼ.
Addenda: *dhīryà -- :* S.kcch. _dhīj_ m. ʻ huff ʼ (?); WPah.kṭg. (kc.) _dhij̈ɔ_ m. ʻ confidence, belief ʼ, J. _dhīj_ f.; kṭg. _dhij̈ṇõ_ ʻ to have confidence ʼ, J. _dhījṇu._


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## littlepond

amiramir said:


> Hello,
> 
> In educated urban speech, should I pronounce the word for patience as  सब्र ( sa-br) or as सबर (sa-bar)? To be clear, I'm asking about correct pronunciation, not orthography.
> 
> (I think धैर्य is a beautiful word, but at least in my Delhi family, I've never heard it. I don't know about other people.)



In educated urban speech, सब्र  - and it's also very common, so you won't be an odd man out.

By the way, "dhairya" is also very commonly used (in fact, in my milieu, even more common than "dheeraj" as word; I mention "as a word" because Dheeraj is a common male name as well), so there's nothing to prevent you from using it. There is also slightly different nuance (in Hindi) between "sabr" and "dhairya" to me: "sabr" is _often _used in the sense of tiding over a bad time, an adversity, whereas "dhairya" (or "dheeraj") is more generic, used for adversity as well as for simply patience.


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## littlepond

tonyspeed said:


> You do realise this is a three way choice: sabra,  sabar,  sabr.



No "sabra" exists: neither colloquial nor standard.


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## tonyspeed

littlepond said:


> No "sabra" exists: neither colloquial nor standard.



I beg to differ. Maybe to an Indian's ears they are not saying sabra but there is a clear distinction between how Urdu speakers say this word and some Hindi speakers say this word. This is a very common question I hear from Hindi learners for words like this. i.e. umr (umar) vs umra, fikr (fikar) vs fikra


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## littlepond

^ Or maybe a non-native speaker's ears playing tricks.

There are no "umra", "sabra", "fikra", etc.


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## tonyspeed

littlepond said:


> ^ Or maybe a non-native speaker's ears playing tricks.
> 
> There are no "umra", "sabra", "fikra", etc.



To clarify this argument. http://shabdkosh.raftaar.in/Meaning-of-फिक्र-in-English  has a Hindi audio sample for फिक्र

This is what I mean when I say fikr(a). There is a clear residual /a/ at the end of the word.

فکر pronunciation: How to pronounce فکر in Urdu, Persian  contains an Urdu sample which I would classify as fik(a)r.

For lack of a good sample there is an Algerian Arabic sample of the same word at فكر pronunciation: How to pronounce فكر in Persian, Arabic by user yourperfectguide that is what I would define as fikr.


उम्र - Meaning in English - उम्र in English - Shabdkosh | शब्दकोश : English Hindi Dictionary and Translation has the Hindi pronunciation of umr(a).

عمر pronunciation: How to pronounce عمر in Persian, Arabic, Urdu has the Urdu pronunciation of what I would call um(a)r


http://shabdkosh.raftaar.in/Meaning-of-सब्र-in-English pronunciation is less distinct, but a small residual /a/ is still noticeable in sabr(a).

The corresponding Urdu sample صبر pronunciation: How to pronounce صبر in Persian, Arabic, Urdu is sabr/sab(a)r with the residual (if-any) coming before the /r/.


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## littlepond

^ Pronunciation of standalone words is hardly any good evidence; do you have any proper audio or video in which a native Hindi or Urdu speaker speaks with any "a" at the end in these words? Any Hindi-Urdu dialogue, song, etc., from a film? I doubt that you will find any.

Also, user-generated content on shabdkosh, forvo, etc., is hardly reliable: one doesn't even know if a native speaker has provided the samples.

By the way, I haven't checked your Algerian Arabic example, as Arabic doesn't concern Hindi or Urdu.


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## tonyspeed

littlepond said:


> ^ Pronunciation of standalone words is hardly any good evidence; do you have any proper audio or video in which a native Hindi or Urdu speaker speaks with any "a" at the end in these words? Any Hindi-Urdu dialogue, song, etc., from a film? I doubt that you will find any.
> 
> Also, user-generated content on shabdkosh, forvo, etc., is hardly reliable: one doesn't even know if a native speaker has provided the samples.
> 
> By the way, I haven't checked your Algerian Arabic example, as Arabic doesn't concern Hindi or Urdu.




This is a typical fall-back argument you have used throughout the years. There if more proof via accent that they are native speakers than there is of any of us claiming to be native speakers in our info. Who is there to run a background check? I would like for an Urdu speaker to give their take.


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## tarkshya

mundiya said:


> The word Prakrit seems to be getting misused by some on this forum.



Well, that "some" is me. You could have said it explicitly 

I tend to use Prakrit term pretty loosely, considering any derivative of a Sanskrit word as Prakrit. But I understand that it is a very specific term reserved for certain Middle Indo Iranian languages, and should be used carefully.


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## tarkshya

littlepond said:


> ^ Pronunciation of standalone words is hardly any good evidence; do you have any proper audio or video in which a native Hindi or Urdu speaker speaks with any "a" at the end in these words? Any Hindi-Urdu dialogue, song, etc., from a film? I doubt that you will find any.
> 
> Also, user-generated content on shabdkosh, forvo, etc., is hardly reliable: one doesn't even know if a native speaker has provided the samples.
> 
> By the way, I haven't checked your Algerian Arabic example, as Arabic doesn't concern Hindi or Urdu.



In this debate, I am with Tonyspeed ji. It is common to pronounce a short a (अ , not आ) at the end of the words like sabr, umr, fiqr etc. Without this final short vowel, it is well nigh impossible to pronounce these words. Now, It may not be "correct" pronunciation if you benchmark it against the authentic Arabic pronunciation, but that is how most Indo-Pak folks will speak it.

I will give you another example. Compare your own pronunciation of नम्र vs उम्र, (or चक्र  vs फ़िक़्र if you like) . Do you really make  a distinction in pronunciation between the two words. I guess no. So that proves Tonyspeed's point.


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## littlepond

tarkshya said:


> In this debate, I am with Tonyspeed ji. It is common to pronounce a short a (अ , not आ) at the end of the words like sabr, umr, fiqr etc. Without this final short vowel, it is well nigh impossible to pronounce these words.



You mean to say most (in my opinion, all) Hindi speakers are doing the well-nigh impossible? Even Tonyspeed jii admitted "sabr" to be one of this three choices.

To make sure that I am understanding you correctly, you mean to say that उम्र rhymes with र (the alphabet, pronounced as "ra", with the ending schwa) and not with र्? If you see the very beginning of Baahubali in Telugu language, the lady says "parmeshwara" (since it's Telugu; in Hindi, it would have been "parmeshwar"): you mean to say your "sabr" rhymes with that? That would make Hindi sound like a south Indian language or like Sanskrit!


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