# as tall as he/him



## Carlos

Hola a todos:

Como se diría la siguiente frase?:

She is as tall as him 

or

She is as tall as he

Gracias.


----------



## UUBiker

Standard written English = "she is as tall as he" [is]. (adding the verb makes it sound less stilted.)

Informal spoken [North American, at least] English = "she is as tall as him"


----------



## Carlos

That was quick. Thanks.


----------



## felicity09

Definitely "as tall as he"


----------



## jaxavi

felicity09 said:


> Definitely "as tall as he"



Felicity, would you really say "as tall as he"? I agree that it is the correct form but it is not commonly heard. As stated, the more common spoken form would be "as tall as he is" or "as tall as him".


----------



## felicity09

I would wimp out and say 'as tall as he is' but I'm not quite ready to give up the fight and end up with 'her's as tall as him is'


----------



## gengo

This is a battle I am currently waging with my young sons.  Society is teaching them to say "as tall as him," while I am teaching them to say "as tall as he is."  I seem to be losing ground.

And I agree that without the verb (is), it sounds a bit pompous.


----------



## felicity09

Fight the good fight, it's worth it!


----------



## UUBiker

felicity09 said:


> I would wimp out and say 'as tall as he is' but I'm not quite ready to give up the fight and end up with 'her's as tall as him is'



I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever say that, so I think you're safe.  I do have to say that, for example, using "whimp" (informal spoken-- and I believe-- wholly American English) and "as he" (standard written English) would be more odd than anything you've suggested, because you'd be mixing registers-- "She's whimped out as much as he."  That, I'm afraid, is ridiculous, and to teach that to anyone is folly and a sin against the genius of the language (you'd not be swimming upstream there, you'd be swimming furiously downstream, and then over to one side).  It would be far less ridiculous, however, to say "She retreated as much as he."  There you're not mixing registers at least (they're both standard written English).


----------



## gengo

UUBiker, I think you missed the humor of felicity's post.  Read it again and you'll see that she is saying that "as tall as he" is her first choice, but "as tall as he is" is also acceptable, and she will succumb to the pressure (wimp out) and use that second option.  But she refuses to use object pronouns as in her intentionally ridiculous example.


----------



## UUBiker

gengo said:


> UUBiker, I think you missed the humor of felicity's post.  Read it again and you'll see that she is saying that "as tall as he" is her first choice, but "as tall as he is" is also acceptable, and she will succumb to the pressure (wimp out) and use that second option.  But she refuses to use object pronouns as in her intentionally ridiculous example.



Ahh, but you've missed my point; her ridiculous examples of poor grammar are of no moment to me.  What is of more substance to me is this-- If one is going to insist on having people *speak* standard English, one should at least *write* in a form of the language with which on can in fact comfortably employ those forms.  "whimp ... / as he" (I pronounce this [hwimp], incidentally) were they to be used together are not among those forms, because together they would mix registers.  One of most important things to teach children is the varieties of language, and when they should be appropriately used.


----------



## gengo

OK, I see what you mean now, although I think you're being a bit harsh on her.

By the way, I don't think whimp is a valid spelling.  It appears in none of my dictionaries.

wimp   Slang
n. A timid or unadventurous person: _"the impression that he is a colorless, indecisive wimp, and not a leader among men"_ (James J. Kilpatrick).
intr.v. wimped, wimp·ing, wimps
To be timid or cowardly. Usually used with out: _wimped out and refused to jump off the high diving board._


----------



## UUBiker

Good to know.


----------



## kellow9

Think you folk have all missed the point of Felicity's comment. At least in the Westcountry (England) where I'm from, it would be fairly common to hear 'her's as tall as him is', or even 'her's as tall as he be' (the latter is probably more of a stereotypical non-westcountry imitation of the way people speak in the westcountry than what you would probably really hear people say).
"She is as tall as he", however, is something you will probably only see in outdated grammar books, or being spoken by a handful of pompous but misguided former pupils of Eton or Harrow.
After all, would you say "the dog is as tall as them" or "the dog is as tall as they"? To confuse the matter, in the westcountry you could well hear "as tall as they" ... which is generally mocked for being incorrect, despite following the same logic that UUBiker defends.


----------



## kellow9

Carlos, tú pon *She is as tall as him*, que es lo que se dice en inglés, y no hagas caso del cuento de *She is as tall as he*, que proviene de libros de gramática del siglo IXX que algunos siguen defendiendo, aunque son totalmente arcaicos ahora, y algunos argumentan que incluso lo fueron en esos tiempos.


----------



## SuperScuffer

Errm, I don´t think you will hear many people, in the UK at least, say "as tall as he" unless they are trying (and failing) to talk posh.  Pretty much everyone will say "as tall as him".

I think it is also very misguided to post otherwise on a language forum, where non-English speakers come for advice on how to write and speak English as it is normally used, rather than on what is theoretically (or used to be) correct.

By all means have a debate on the direction the English language is taking, but please don´t try and trick non-English speakers into thinking this is how the language is spoken today.


----------



## iskndarbey

I agree with the above poster -- it's fine to use archaic constructions and make up arbitrary grammatical rules and spellings, if that's your thing, but presenting them as if they're standard English on a site used by people trying to learn the language just isn't very helpful.

In the United States we say "She's as tall as him" or "She's as tall as he is", completely interchangeably. Not one person in a million would say "She's as tall as he".


----------



## felicity09

I'm new to this forum and a little confused. I was the under the impression that at least some people use it for help with translating documents which requires correct English. "She is as tall as him (is)" isn't right and the current grammar books (2007) I checked all say it would be "She is as tall as he (is)" so it is hardly archaic. Are the help requests differentiated by written and spoken language? Perhaps I missed that.


----------



## gengo

Since some people seem to think others are doing a disservice to Carlos by offering advice that is not useful, let me try to break it down as follows.

1. She is as tall as him.
2. She is as tall as he is.
3. She is as tall as he.

1 is certainly the most commonly heard in speech, but is considered grammatically incorrect, and therefore should not be used in contexts where grammar is important, such as edited writing.  Also, in _certain_ speaking contexts, its use might label the speaker as lacking in education.

2 is also heard in speech fairly often, though not nearly as often as 1, but it has the advantage of also being grammatically correct.

3 is grammatically correct, but is almost never used because it sounds stilted for some reason.

Take your pick, Carlos!


----------



## Brumble

UUBiker is exactly right.


----------



## Dario de Kansas

iskndarbey said:


> I agree with the above poster -- it's fine to use archaic constructions and make up arbitrary grammatical rules and spellings, if that's your thing, but presenting them as if they're standard English on a site used by people trying to learn the language just isn't very helpful.
> 
> In the United States we say "She's as tall as him" or "She's as tall as he is", completely interchangeably. Not one person in a million would say "She's as tall as he".


 
I will add my "amen" to this post.

In addition, I would argue that it's perfectly fine English to say "She is as tall as him" and probably incorrect to say "She is as tall as he."

"He" is a subject pronoun. In this sentence "he" is not the subject.

"Him" is an object pronoun. In this sentence, "he" is used as an object pronoun. Therefore, I would say "him" is correct in this instance. Not only that, it's what 99 percent of people would use, which is the information we should be sharing with our friends on this forum who are learning English.

And don't get me started about the people who think you can never end a sentence in a preposition.


----------



## mt2sea

I'm under the impression that this forum is for all registers of language.  This is exactly why it's important to indicate in any posting the context in which the phrase will appear.  If you're writing an email to your friend, of course you're not going to use the same language as in an academic research paper.


----------



## gengo

Brumble said:


> UUBiker is exactly right.



About what?


----------



## gengo

Dario de Kansas said:


> In addition, I would argue that it's perfectly fine English to say "She is as tall as him" and probably incorrect to say "She is as tall as he."
> 
> "He" is a subject pronoun. In this sentence "he" is not the subject.
> 
> "Him" is an object pronoun. In this sentence, "he" is used as an object pronoun.



Sorry, Dario, but that is incorrect.

Comparisons with "as" require two clauses, each with a subject and a verb.  Of course, the second verb is often only implied to avoid redundancy, as in "The girl is as brave as the boy (is brave)."  The exact same construction applies when the nouns are replaced with pronouns:  She is as brave as he (is brave).  Naturally, there is no need to repeat the adjective, or even the verb, so the sentence can correctly be shortened to "She is as brave as he."  

For some reason, this changed over time, and people began using the object pronoun in such cases, which makes no logical sense, but is nonetheless well established in the language by now.  It makes no sense because an object pronoun is only used when the noun is the object of a transitive verb, which is not the case in the above sentence (to be is an intransitive verb, so there is no object).

I'm not insisting that everyone say "She is as brave as he is," but for the purposes of this forum, we must be able to identify what is grammatically correct and what is not.


----------



## SevenDays

Hello

It helps to provide both the standard (formal) use and the informal (everyday) use.  I’m sure people appreciate knowing both forms, and understand the difference.  And if Carlos wrote a book, wished to speak standard English (who are we to tell him not to?), or addressed the Pope, then he would be well advised to say _she is as tall as he is_.  

The problem with mentioning only _him_ is that it may give the impression that it’s ok to use it in an expanded version of the original phrase, and I doubt anyone would recommend saying

She is as tall as _him_ is 
She is as tall as _him_ was a year ago

Cheers


----------



## FromPA

UUBiker said:


> Ahh, but you've missed my point; her ridiculous examples of poor grammar are of no moment to me. What is of more substance to me is this-- If one is going to insist on having people *speak* standard English, one should at least *write* in a form of the language with which on can in fact comfortably employ those forms. "whimp ... / as he" (I pronounce this [hwimp], incidentally) were they to be used together are not among those forms, because together they would mix registers. One of most important things to teach children is the varieties of language, and when they should be appropriately used.


 
I'm with Felicity - I always add the verb at the end to avoid sounding as stilted as the above post (which I hope was written tongue-in-cheek) or sounding uneducated ("as tall as him").


----------



## gengo

SevenDays said:


> The problem with mentioning only _him_ is that it may give the impression that it’s ok to use it in an expanded version of the original phrase, and I doubt anyone would recommend saying
> 
> She is as tall as _him_ is
> She is as tall as _him_ was a year ago



That's an excellent point, 7, and clearly demonstrates why the subject pronoun is needed here.  (I wish I had thought of it myself.)

Another way to demonstrate this is to change the verbs in the two clauses.

_He is mixing the cement as fast as John pours it._

Here is it obvious that John is the subject of the second clause, just as "he" is the subject of the second clause in the above sentence (correct version).


----------



## Dario de Kansas

gengo said:


> Sorry, Dario, but that is incorrect.
> 
> *Comparisons with "as" require two clauses, each with a subject and a verb. Of course, the second verb is often only implied to avoid redundancy, as in "The girl is as brave as the boy (is brave)." The exact same construction applies when the nouns are replaced with pronouns: She is as brave as he (is brave). Naturally, there is no need to repeat the adjective, or even the verb, so the sentence can correctly be shortened to "She is as brave as he."*
> 
> For some reason, this changed over time, and people began using the object pronoun in such cases, which makes no logical sense, but is nonetheless well established in the language by now. It makes no sense because an object pronoun is only used when the noun is the object of a transitive verb, which is not the case in the above sentence (to be is an intransitive verb, so there is no object).
> 
> I'm not insisting that everyone say "She is as brave as he is," but for the purposes of this forum, we must be able to identify what is grammatically correct and what is not.


 
By that logic, it would be correct to say: "They are as brave as we."


----------



## gengo

Dario de Kansas said:


> By that logic, it would be correct to say: "They are as brave as we."



By Jove, I think you've got it!


----------



## iskndarbey

gengo said:


> Sorry, Dario, but that is incorrect.
> 
> Comparisons with "as" require two clauses, each with a subject and a verb.  Of course, the second verb is often only implied to avoid redundancy, as in "The girl is as brave as the boy (is brave)."  The exact same construction applies when the nouns are replaced with pronouns:  She is as brave as he (is brave).  Naturally, there is no need to repeat the adjective, or even the verb, so the sentence can correctly be shortened to "She is as brave as he."
> 
> For some reason, this changed over time, and people began using the object pronoun in such cases, which makes no logical sense, but is nonetheless well established in the language by now.  It makes no sense because an object pronoun is only used when the noun is the object of a transitive verb, which is not the case in the above sentence (to be is an intransitive verb, so there is no object).
> 
> I'm not insisting that everyone say "She is as brave as he is," but for the purposes of this forum, we must be able to identify what is grammatically correct and what is not.



This analysis is misleading. 'To be' is a copula or linking verb, which makes the rules about what it can and can't take as an argument much fuzzier than for simple transitive or intransitive verbs. This is what leads to the recurring and never-ending fights here about "It is I" vs. "It is me" and sentences such as this.

I for one would not hesitate to write "She is as tall as him" in even the most formal context; I would never remotely consider writing "She is as tall as he", although to do so would not be incorrect, whatever that means in English. I of course agree that sentences such as "He is mixing the cement as fast as she pours it" require the subject pronoun (and not *"...as fast as her pours it").


----------



## gengo

iskndarbey said:


> This analysis is misleading. 'To be' is a copula or linking verb, which makes the rules about what it can and can't take as an argument much fuzzier than for simple transitive or intransitive verbs.



Not really.  The same argument applies with any other verb.

_She drinks as much as he drinks / as much as he does._

With the verbs in place, no native speaker would ever use an object pronoun here (as much as him does).  Inexplicably, however, when the verb disappears (that is, when it is omitted to avoid redundancy), people seem to think an object pronoun should be used.

_She drinks as much as him._

Furthermore, no native speaker would use an object pronoun when the two verbs are different, and therefore require both the verbs and the pronouns to be included.

_She drinks as much as he smokes._

You say that you would never use the grammatically correct form, no matter how formal the context, and that of course is your right, but there are many other native English speakers in the world who disagree with that stance, and we owe it to the Spanish speakers here to explain that.


----------



## UUBiker

felicity09 said:


> Are the help requests differentiated by written and spoken language? Perhaps I missed that.



Well, language is used in a variety of ways, in a variety of situations, and in a variety of contexts.  Hence my original answer, post #2, identified on "standard" written response, and one "informal" spoken response.  I stand by those.  I'm not even sure you really disagree with me that "as him" is in fact used in informal spoken English; it's merely that you don't like that.  Well, so what?  It is used in "informal" spoken English.  Perhaps its use might be improper in other contexts.  Hence it is labelled in this fashion.

I mean, do you really take issue with how I've labelled it?  Or do you take issue with the fact that people in fact use the language this way?  Those are two different issues.

But, if you're trying to explain to people what they will in fact *hear*, and thus will need to understand in order to get by, you're doing a disservice to them by not putting them on alert that there is a common informal spoken form. 

I'm presuming you're not trying to put the burden on English-learners to change the direction of the language to go where you believe it ought, by attempting to change the habits of English-speakers in informal spoken contexts.


----------



## gengo

Looks like we are nearing consensus!

I agree with your statements above, UUBiker, and agree that we should tell learners all the ways in which English is really used.  Similarly, it's good for me to know that while native Spanish speakers where I live often say "¿Qué dijistes?," the standard/correct version lacks that final S, and to know that using or not using that S may change the way I am perceived by listeners when I speak.


----------



## felicity09

Of course I realize it is commonly used - phrases like 'me and her are going to the movies' are also commonly used in what I guess you refer to as "informal" English. Maybe it's just me, but when I'm learning a language, out of respect for its native speakers, I try very hard to learn it right.


----------



## UUBiker

felicity09 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but when I'm learning a language, out of respect for its native speakers, I try very hard to learn it right.



Of course then you sound like a foreigner learning the language, which is fine, particularly if you are a foreigner, well, tautologically, learning the language.  If you're a foreigner trying to fit in, that's a different issue.


----------



## felicity09

I haven't thought about "fitting in" since junior high, as far as I'm concerned all "foreigners" are welcome.


----------



## Masood

iskndarbey said:


> In the United States we say "She's as tall as him" or "She's as tall as he is", completely interchangeably. Not one person in a million would say "She's as tall as he".


Fair enough, but it seems only fair to point out to Carlos (the original poster) that _"She's as tall as him"_ is grammatically incorrect and leave it to his discretion to choose one of the 3 options in post#19 by _gengo_.


----------



## felicity09

You're absolutely right Masood. I'm sure Carlos will appreciate all of our efforts!


----------



## JulianStuart

felicity09 said:


> I would wimp out and say 'as tall as he is' but I'm not quite ready to give up the fight and end up with 'her's as tall as him is'


I don't think anyone was suggesting that "She is as tall as him" is a short form of "She is as tall as him is". In any case, I find it strange that it is assumed that the omission of "is" is _more_ acceptable than the use of "as", like "than", as a preposition rather than a conjunction.  When people say "She is as tall as him" they are using _as_ as a preposition and not simply omitting the "is" - it was never in their mind to begin with. The usage note in the WR dictionary for than covers this issue. The two common modern usages are "She is as tall as he is" and "She is as tall as him".  The acceptabilty as "normal/standard/correct" in common speech and modern writing, of the omission of the "is" is decreasing as it becomes viewed by more and more people _as_ an "older" form (is that _as_ being used _as_ a prepostion - how about the second one in these parentheses?). It is always the case that a new form (as and than as prepositions in comparisons) will be resisted by strict prescriptivists but eventually they have little choice but to yield to the need for a reassessment of the "rules" based on today's, rather than yesterday's, usage.  This notion should be accepted as soon as possible (is?).


----------



## Ubetense

Part of the decision to use one form rather than another is consideration of *the register of the "conversation"* in which a phrase appears: who is speaking, where and why; what their intention is. 

Moreover, as has been suggested in one or two of the responses, in a _written_ text - as one I've just prepared - *"as tall as he"* is the appropriate choice.

These subtleties are, to me, the pleasure of working with a language (and between two or more), and preserving the variation in its colours is something I feel continually responsible for.


----------

