# vegetali al forno



## Blumarine84

Is it ok if I translate vegetali al forno come baked vegetables? oppure il termine baked si usa solo per il pane e i dolci???

Grazie


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## Anja.Ann

Ciao, Blumarine 

Hai provato a controllare nel dizionario? "al forno"


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## mamyblue

Se guardi in questo link del Dizionario Gastronomico, anche per le verdure cotte al forno si dice "baked "...

http://www.acena.it/preparazione.html

Ciao


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## joanvillafane

Hi Blumarine - you can also say "roasted vegetables" - very popular here.  Baked potato is fine, but I don't think I've seen "baked vegetables" on a menu anywhere....

and P.S.  to mamyblue and others who checked the link - the English translation there says "backed" instead of "baked" !!


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## a malta

Hi, Ciao!
I agree with Joan, roasted vegetables
a m


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## mr cat

With vegetables I would use 'roast', the only time I can think of when we used baked is for whole potatoes, when chopped they are roast potatoes. Perhaps baked can be used when the vegetables are whole, but how many are cooked whole? Note that it may be different in N.America etc.

oops cross -posted !


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## Peninsular

I think that baked generally means that they're not covered in oil before being put in the oven, hence the difference between the pretty good baked or jacket potato, and the fantastic roast potato! In this case I'd say they're probably roast.


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## You little ripper!

_R__oasted vegetables_ was also my first thought, but since there are quite a lot of Google listings for 'baked vegetables' I decided to check a few of the recipes. Two of main differences I noticed between them is that baked vegetables include vegetables that aren't normally associated with roasting such as eggplant, zucchini and broccoli etc., and the second is that they are cooked only until they are tender (roasted vegetables are usually cooked for longer and therefore crisper).

Maybe we need more context.


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## Peninsular

I'm sticking with my version! It's the oil poured on top (roast potatoes) or coming out from the inside (a joint of beef) that roasts it and also stops all the water inside from emerging - you can roast or bake an courgette, but you'll get two very different dishes: roast courgette is tasty, baked courgette is like pieces of paper!


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> I'm sticking with my version! It's the oil poured on top (roast potatoes) or coming out from the inside (a joint of beef) that roasts it and also stops all the water inside from emerging - you can roast or bake an courgette, but you'll get two very different dishes: roast courgette is tasty, baked courgette is like pieces of paper!


You can roast any vegetable, Pen, but zucchini and broccoli aren't normally associated with traditional roasted vegetables (not in this part of the world anyway). Most of the baked vegetable recipes I looked at also have oil as one of the ingredients - the main difference appears to be the cooking time. Besides, there are plenty of Google listings for 'vegetali arrostiti' so why wasn't that terminology used here?


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## Peninsular

Hi charles - that's what I mean: roast vegetables would make sense, because pretty much all vegetables taste good roasted, but I wouldn't be ordering any unspecified baked vegetables, because a lot don't lend themselves to baking. Al forno can mean both - _pasta al forno _would be baked, but_ patate al forno_ (at least in Italy) would be roasted with garlic and rosemary and just thinking about it is making my mouth water! Roasted zucchini are a pretty common dish here in Italy (or at least Lazio/Umbria/Toscana) together with peppers, onions and aubergine. Broccoli less so, because they don't really lend themelves to either roasting or baking.


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> Hi charles - that's what I mean: roast vegetables would make sense, because pretty much all vegetables taste good roasted, but I wouldn't be ordering any unspecified baked vegetables, because a lot don't lend themselves to baking. Al forno can mean both - _pasta al forno _would be baked, but_ patate al forno_ (at least in Italy) would be roasted with garlic and rosemary and just thinking about it is making my mouth water! Roasted zucchini are a pretty common dish here in Italy (or at least Lazio/Umbria/Toscana) together with peppers, onions and aubergine. Broccoli less so, because they don't really lend themelves to either roasting or baking.


Pen, just because they taste better to you doesn't necessarily mean that that's what is intended here, especially in view of the fact that 'al forno' can mean both _roasted_ or _baked_. Maybe _roasted_ is the translation, but wouldn't it be best to get more context, just to be certain.


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## Peninsular

I was only kidding about the taste, Charles! All I meant was, as a 24-year vegetarian I've often eaten a plate of _roast_ vegetables, but while I've eaten baked potatoes, baked marrow and other baked veg, I've never yet been offered a plate of assorted _baked_ vegetables, in Italy or back in the UK. 
But I'm quite ready to accept that I may be wrong, so more context it is!


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> I was only kidding about the taste, Charles! All I meant was, as a 24-year vegetarian I've often eaten a plate of _roast_ vegetables, but while I've eaten baked potatoes, baked marrow and other baked veg, I've never yet been offered a plate of assorted _baked_ vegetables, in Italy or back in the UK.
> But I'm quite ready to accept that I may be wrong, so more context it is!


You (and Joan) are more than likely right! There is the remote possibility that it's a recipe book for people doing penance, in which case BORING would the underlying theme.


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## london calling

Do you know, I'd never really considered this problem?

However, I agree that _al forno_ can mean either roast or (oven-) baked vegetables, but there is a difference in English: a baked potato for example is completely different from a roast potato. So you're quite right: we need more context (we need to know what kind of vegetables we're talking about and how they are prepared before putting them in the oven so we can establish if they're baked or roasted.).

Plus, you wouldn't say "vegetali al forno" in Italian, although technically I suppose it isn't wrong . Mamyblue calls them "verdure (cotte) al forno" (quite rightly, of course)
.
Then, what would we call "verdure arrostite"? I mean peppers cooked on the top, using a cooking stone or a cast-iron grill pan? Never having cooked them that way in the UK I really have no idea!


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## Peninsular

Hi LC - I suppose in a pan those would be sautéed? On a stone... stoned veg?


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> stoned veg?


Laced with cannabis! 

stone roasted vegetables


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## london calling

Peninsular said:


> Hi LC - I suppose in a pan those would be sautéed? On a stone... stoned veg?


If they were done in a frying pan with oil they'd be sautéed, but not if they were grilled (that's it!) using a pan like this.

I suppose a cooking stone grills veggie in the end as well, don't you think? _Stoned veg_ makes me think of magic mushrooms! And in Italian they do say _verdure grigliate/alla griglia_ as well - as a matter of fact, I'm beginning to wonder if it's only down here that they sometimes say "arrostiti" meaning grilled.

But anyway, I wouldn't call them roast or baked vegetables.

PS: found it! _Stone-cooked _(see bluemarine's other thread about "cotta a pietra".


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## Alessandrino

What an interesting discussion! It's making my mouth water, and it reminds me when a few years ago at a restaurant in Naples two American tourists asked me what _pasta al forno was_.

To cut a long story short (we Neapolitans like to indulge ourselves in describing our traditional recipes), at a certain point I explained that halfway through the cooking process you "had to bake the pasta in the oven". It took me a few seconds to come up with this expression, because it's not something you're likely to come up with in English. And I wasn't satisfied at all, although they seemed to understand what I meant.

However, the point is: can you bake pasta in the oven? I know it may sound like another question (against forum rules), but it isn't! I'd just like to understand what you mean by "baking".

Thanks.


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## joanvillafane

Of course, Alessandrino - baked ziti - one of my favorites!  I think "baking" here just means cooking it in the oven.


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## london calling

Oh yes. Oven-baked penne, oven-baked lasagne... Here's a British _meatball pasta bake_ recipe.


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## joanvillafane

Great! (Hi Jo!) - (and we won't tell the Italians that there's ketchup and Cheddar cheese in your recipe


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## Alessandrino

Splendid! Thanks Joan and London! I had no idea it was that popular in the UK/US. I should've known better, though!




joanvillafane said:


> Great! (Hi Jo!) - (and we won't tell the  Italians that there's ketchup and Cheddar cheese in your recipe


 Heaven forbid!


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## Peninsular

> a pan like this.


Never seen a pan quite like that before, LC!


> _Stoned veg_ makes me think of magic mushrooms!


Yup - happy tea-drinking days!


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## london calling

joanvillafane said:


> Great! (Hi Jo!) - (and we won't tell the Italians that there's ketchup and Cheddar cheese in your recipe


No, Jo, I think we'd better keep that to ourselves! I wasn't suggesting using that recipe, by the way.

Pen, if you like grilled veggie, buy yourself one of those cast-iron grill pans.

Getting back to _verdure al forno_. I mentioned the difference between roast potatoes and baked potatoes (in their jackets) above (_patate al forno_!). How can we get the difference across in Italian? I normally explain the difference in a roundabout sort of way, but if I had to write roast potatoes or jacket-baked potatoes on a menu in Italian I'd find it a little difficult to keep it short. Ale, ci sei?


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## Peninsular

isn't it _patate al forno (roasted)_ and p_atate al cartoccio (baked)?_


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## Alessandrino

Peninsular said:


> isn't it _patate al forno (roasted)_ and p_atate al cartoccio (baked)?_


Well, _patate al cartoccio_ are definitely baked - and not roasted. But the fact is that _al cartoccio_ means _in foil_, and baked potatoes are not necessarily _in foil_, are they?


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## Peninsular

Hi Alessandro - no, but are baked potatoes actually a dish in Italy? I've never seen them here in central Italy, I don't know about the south.


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## Alessandrino

Peninsular said:


> Hi Alessandro - no, but are baked potatoes actually a dish in Italy? I've never seen them here in central Italy, I don't know about the south.


I'm inclined to say no, because I've never seen them either. But who knows? Everything is possible in our cuisine...


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## Peninsular

That's true! But at that point, I wouldn't expect them to have a name any more than this monstrosity, except that it actually does have one!


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## london calling

_Baked potatoes in their jackets_ (without foil) isn't something they make here either, I must admit, although friends of mine who had them in the UK are now using their microwaves to produce a whole series of different jacket potato recipes  and are fast spreading the word.


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## Alessandrino

On second thought, I think we do make baked potatoes in Italy. It's the typical way we cook _patate novelle_. We simply call them _patate novelle _(e.g. capretto con patate novelle), because the name alone already implies they have been 'baked'.

However, if I had to translate baked potatoes, I'd probably end up with something along the lines of _patate al forno con la buccia_, which seems to be quite popular on Google.


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## Blumarine84

There is a case in which they specificate vegetali al forno(zucchini, radicchio, eggplants and peppers) so reading your posts I think I should use for these kinds of vegetables baked vegetables

There is another case in which it's not specificated and it's written only vegetali al forno.. 

For patate al forno, even if I have seen on google baked potatoes in many recipes, I think I'm gonna translate roasted potatoes because they're chopped and relish? seasoned? well...... CONDIMENTATE 

Thank you!


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## london calling

Blumarine84 said:


> There is a case in which they specify vegetali ("verdure" is better, I don't know why they say "vegetali") al forno (zucchini, radicchio = chicory - , eggplants and peppers) so reading your posts I think I should use for these kinds of vegetables baked vegetables
> 
> There is another case in which it's not specified and they only write  vegetali al forno..
> 
> For patate al forno, even if I have seen on google baked potatoes in many recipes, I think I'm gonna translate it as roasted potatoes because they're chopped and  seasoned well...... condite.
> 
> Thank you!


You're welcome.


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## Peninsular

Blumarine84 said:


> There is a case in which they specificate vegetali al forno(zucchini, radicchio, eggplants and peppers) so reading your posts I think I should use for these kinds of vegetables baked vegetables
> 
> There is another case in which it's not specificated and it's written only vegetali al forno..
> 
> For patate al forno, even if I have seen on google baked potatoes in many recipes, I think I'm gonna translate roasted potatoes because they're chopped and relish? seasoned? well...... CONDIMENTATE
> 
> Thank you!



Hi Blumarine! Sorry, but for being a bit obsessive, but I don't agree: the question is not if they specify the vegetables, it's if they put oil on them before they cook them. Roasting caramelizes the outside of food and makes it crisp. You bake a cake or bread or a potato, but if you bake chicory it practically disappears unless you put oil on it! I think the oil stops the moisture inside from evaporating... 

@Alessandrino - don't you put oil on _patate novelle al forno_? Baked potatoes, with or without tin foil, are dry-cooked.


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## Blumarine84

london calling said:


> You're welcome.



Thnak you london for the corrections!

To all of you that helped me..... Sorry if I don't answer quickly but I'm working and doing many things at the time.... Thank youuuuu



Peninsular said:


> Hi Blumarine! Sorry, but for being a bit obsessive, but I don't agree: the question is not if they specify the vegetables, it's if they put oil on them before they cook them. Roasting caramelizes the outside of food and makes it crisp. You bake a cake or bread or a potato, but if you bake chicory it practically disappears unless you put oil on it! I think the oil stops the moisture inside from evaporating...
> 
> @Alessandrino - don't you put oil on _patate novelle al forno_? Baked potatoes, with or without tin foil, are dry-cooked.



Peninsular I'm gonna ask for the way they cook the vegetables to cancel the doubt  thank you


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## Peninsular

Thanks Blumarine! Now I'm going to roast my own vegetables!


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> Hi Blumarine! Sorry, but for being a bit obsessive, but I don't agree: the question is not if they specify the vegetables, it's if they put oil on them before they cook them. Roasting caramelizes the outside of food and makes it crisp. You bake a cake or bread or a potato, but if you bake chicory it practically disappears unless you put oil on it! I think the oil stops the moisture inside from evaporating...


I'm not really sure what you mean here, Pen. Are you saying that putting oil on the vegetables automatically roasts them?


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## Peninsular

Hi Charles! No, what I meant was that when you coat something in oil (or when, like meat, it contains fat) it cooks differently to if you cook it without oil - you can bake a mushroom or roast a mushroom, but you're going to get two different mushrooms!


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> Hi Charles! No, what I meant was that when you coat something in oil (or when, like meat, it contains fat) it cooks differently to if you cook it without oil - you can bake a mushroom or roast a mushroom, but you're going to get two different mushrooms!


I've done enough cooking in my life to know that you get a different result by not using oil than if you do, so I agree with you there. What I can't understand is whether you're saying that the difference between a baked mushroom (to use your example) and a roasted one is that the roasted one has been coated with oil and the baked one hasn't?


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## Peninsular

Sorry Charles, didn't mean to sound patronising - what I meant was that roasting definitely implies cooking in an oven and with oil; baking is a bit more ambiguous, but I would imagine that it implies that oil/fat is not the principal means by which the cooking is achieved. My initial thought was: if somebody gave me a tray of mixed and anonymous veg, would I be more likely to want to eat it if it was roasted or baked? 
I can't believe I'm taking this so seriously. I probably need to get out more.


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## You little ripper!

Peninsular said:


> Sorry Charles, didn't mean to sound patronising - what I meant was that roasting definitely implies cooking in an oven and with oil; baking is a bit more ambiguous, but I would imagine that it implies that oil/fat is not the principal means by which the cooking is achieved. My initial thought was: if somebody gave me a tray of mixed and anonymous veg, would I be more likely to want to eat it if it was roasted or baked?
> I can't believe I'm taking this so seriously. I probably need to get out more.


As I said in an earlier post, a lot of the recipes of oven-baked vegetable recipes I checked out on the Internet required the vegetables be tossed in olive oil before baking. The difference between those and roasted vegetables was the baking time - the baked vegetables recipes suggested cooking only 'till tender'. Some of them even suggested putting a cup of water (along with the oil) into the pan (definitely not roasted).

I agree roasted vegetables are much tastier, and yes, maybe we both need to get a life!


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## Peninsular

this page has a pretty good definition (that I think sort of backs me up!)


> So, while roasting and baking are almost identical methods of dry heat cooking, the terms roasting and baking apply to two different kinds of foods. You generally roast food that has structure already, solid foods such as meats and vegetables. You generally bake foods that don’t have much structure until they are baked: cakes, breads, pies, casseroles, crème brulee, etc.In other words, you bake leavened items - items that “puff up” or “rise” during the cooking process. In baking, aside from just “cooking” the food, the goal is to either create steam or expand air pockets within the target food.
> Most foods that we roast contain less “empty space” than foods that we bake. These foods are, by and large, already solid. The primary goal of roasting then becomes transferring heat from the surface of the food to the interior at a regulated pace to ensure crusty goodness outside and juicy, tender doneness inside.


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## You little ripper!

> So, while roasting and baking are almost identical methods of dry heat  cooking, the terms roasting and baking apply to two different kinds of  foods. You *generally* roast food that has structure already, solid foods  such as meats and vegetables. You generally bake foods that don’t have  much structure until they are baked: cakes, breads, pies, casseroles,  crème brulee, etc.In other words, you bake leavened items - items that  “puff up” or “rise” during the cooking process. In baking, aside from  just “cooking” the food, the goal is to either create steam or expand  air pockets within the target food.
> Most foods that we roast contain less “empty space” than foods that we  bake. These foods are, by and large, already solid. The primary goal of  roasting then becomes transferring heat from the surface of the food to  the interior at a regulated pace to ensure crusty goodness outside and  juicy, tender doneness inside.



I think that the key there is the word 'generally'. 'Generally' does not mean in all cases. 

Anyway, I'm off to hang myself - the boredom is getting to me!


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## Peninsular

Already done it - roast my remains for me!


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## Anja.Ann

Ciao 

Personally, I use "roast" to say "arrostire" and "arrostire" does mean "cuocere a fuoco vivo" or "rosolare" (which is totally different from "cuocere al forno") and  I use "bake" to say "cuocere al forno".

"F_are_ (le patate) _al forno_", "patate al forno" baked potatoes.


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## Peninsular

Arg, Anja - you couldn't let it alone!
baked potatoes are these, roast potatoes are these - which ones are your baked potatoes?


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## Anja.Ann

Sorry, Pen  you are totally right! 

I did not specify that, as far as I know, "fare al forno" and "fare arrosto" in Italian has the same meaning but talking of potatoes it is difficult to say whether they are "arrostite" _(in padella_, not arrosto) or "al forno": they look practically the same!


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## Peninsular

Hi Anja - I think the difference in English is that roasting means cooking in an oven: _in padella_ would be maybe sautèing or pan frying?


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## Anja.Ann

Yes, Pen, I think so 

I've meanwhile looked for a couple of Italian recipes and these are the results:

- patate al forno/arrrosto
- patate arrostite (in padella) (but not fried)

You see? It's the same thing!

But I think that your "baked potatoes" may be the Italian "patate al cartoccio" finally


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## Peninsular

yes Anja, in Italian they can be the same, although here in Lazio I think you'd be more likely to say _trifolati_ or _saltati in padella.
_In English, there's a difference between frying and pan-frying - one means immersed in oil, the other with oil on the surfaces.


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