# يدعين به لبناتهن



## CBISH

Hi,

This is a sentence from Tayyeb Saleh's 'The Wedding of Zein', written in 1962. I am not sure of the meaning in this context of يدعين I assume it is from the form 8 verb ادعى but doesn't seem to be used the way I am used to seeing it.

The sentence describes the character Zein, whose love for young girls draws attention to them and he is therefore described as 'a trumpet'

فقد فطنت امهات البنات الى خطورته كبوق يدعين به لبناتهن 

Many thanks!


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## Matat

It's hard to tell without more context, but assuming there is no typo, the only way I can make sense of it is if the author is using يُدْعَيْنَ (i.e. ِكَبُوقٍ يُدْعَيْنَ بِه = like a trumpet which they are called with), which is the third person feminine plural conjugate of the verb دُعِيَ ـ يُدْعَى.  This is the passive form of the Form I verb دَعَا ـ يَدْعُو.

فَقَدْ فَطِنَتْ أُمَّهَاتُ الْبَنَاتِ إِلَى خُطُورَتِهِ كَبُوقٍ يُدْعَيْنَ بِهِ لِبَنَاتِهِنَّ
"The girls' mothers came to realize his significance; like a trumpet which directs their (the mothers') attention toward their daughters."


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## CBISH

I hope it is not a typo. The broader context is that the mothers are trying to attract suitors for the daughters... which is why I thought they were the active subjects of a form eight ادعى - as in they 'claimed things about their daughters'?


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## Matat

CBISH said:


> which is why I thought they were the active subjects of a form eight ادعى - as in they 'claimed things about their daughters'?


If it was يَدَّعِينَ به لبناتهن, I wouldn't think that this would mean "claim things about their daughters". It also sounds very sloppy this way. Regardless, I don't see how this meaning could be consolidated with كبوق ("like a trumpet which they claimed things to about their daughters"??), so يُدْعَيْنَ seems like the better option.


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## cherine

Why wouldn't it be the verb دعا - يدعو (yad3iina)? I'm not sure about the correct conjugation here, but to me the sentence says that the mothers used him as a way to attract attention to their daughter, because whenever he liked a girl he'd talk about her everywhere, attracting attention to her and the girl soon ends up getting married. The following paragraph talks about how the mothers would invite him to their homes and give him food and tea and coffee, and encourage their daughters to greet him in the hope that he'll like one of them and starts singing her praise, which would then attract attention to the girl and help her find a good suitor.


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## Matat

cherine said:


> Why wouldn't it be the verb دعا - يدعو (yad3iina)?


It would have to be يَدْعُونَ in that case. أمهات البنات يدعون.


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## cherine

Right. But it still is the only meaning I can get out of this sentence. I mean it's about دعوة not ادعاء and the passive of يدعو also doesn't make sense.


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## Matat

cherine said:


> Right. But it still is the only meaning I can get out of this sentence.


So would you say it's a typo? As the sentence stands, I can't see how it would mean anything other than what I wrote above, because if it is يُدْعَيْنَ, then it is the mothers being drawn in by the trumpet, not the mothers drawing their daughters' attention with the trumpet. Moreover, even if it was conjugated in the active form as كبوق يدعون به لبناتهن, the sentence sounds wrong to my ears. I would expect one of the two prepositions not to be there if that were the case, where it would either be يدعونه لبناتهن or يدعون بناتهن به.


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## CBISH

I agree that دعا would make sense - and perhaps it it a typo?!


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## cherine

I'm really not 100% sure about the conjugation, so it can be either a typo or a mis-conjugation from the writer. But I'm 99.99% it is the verb دعا - يدعو 



Matat said:


> Moreover, even if it was conjugated in the active form as كبوق يدعون به لبناتهن, the sentence sounds wrong to my ears. I would expect one of the two prepositions not to be there if that were the case, where it would either be يدعونه لبناتهن or يدعون بناتهن به.


It sounds perfectly correct to my ears: they use the megaphone to call attention to their daughters يدعون بالبوق لبناتهم = يستخدمن البوق للدعوة إلى/لِجَذْبِ الانتباه إلى بناتهن.


Edit: By the way, in case someone was mistaking the meaning of خطورته كبوق it doesn't mean he's dangerous but he's effective, like an effective (dangerous) weapon.


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## CBISH

I suppose the prepositions make sense if the به is expressing how they would use the trumpet to 'invite' suitors to their daughters... But it would mean a typo or mis-conjugation!


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## Matat

cherine said:


> I'm really not 100% sure about the conjugation


I'm 100% sure that the conjugation of دعا ـ يدعو in the third person active feminine plural form is يدعون. 

قَالَ رَبِّ السِّجْنُ أَحَبُّ إِلَيَّ مِمَّا *يَدْعُونَنِي* إِلَيْهِ ۖ وَإِلَّا تَصْرِفْ عَنِّي كَيْدَهُنَّ أَصْبُ إِلَيْهِنَّ وَأَكُن مِّنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ
Quran 12:33


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## cherine

Good point


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## I.K.S.

Sounds like a colloquialism influence _ as most of us would use يدعي in our dialects instead of يدعو _ or a hyper-corrections led to an Incorrect conjugation as cherine said.


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## Matat

Perhaps, but I don't think the conjugation can definitively be declared incorrect. Taking the sentence at face value with يدعين, I would understand the sentence as the character, Zein, being like a trumpet (or his significance/effectiveness being like a trumpet) which draws the mothers' attention toward their daughters. Meaning, upon seeing Zein, they immediately think about their daughters and think of ways they can try to get Zein and their daughter to marry one another. Perhaps it's not the best way to word it, but it can still make sense. Whether this was the author's intention or not, we can only guess.


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## elroy

Could it be "they use him to pray for their daughters"?  I don't know how plausible this reading is; just throwing it out there because this meaning immediately sprang to mind when I read the sentence.


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## Matat

elroy said:


> Could it be "they use him to pray for their daughters"?


If possible, we would run into the same problem. It would need to be يدعون.


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> Could it be "they use him to pray for their daughters"? I don't know how plausible this reading is; just throwing it out there because this meaning immediately sprang to mind when I read the sentence.



This is exactly what first popped into my head when I first read it.



Matat said:


> If possible, we would run into the same problem. It would need to be يدعون.



True, but then in this case it could be the effect of dialect. At least in Palestinian Arabic, in the sense of prayer the word used for plural is يدعين as in: الإم بتدعي لبنتها - الإمهات بدعين لبناتهن.

I know Tayyeb Saleh is Sudanese, but maybe it's the same case in Sudan and hence the mistake or perhaps he did it on purpose because he knows that those reading it would understand it better this way.

Of course, the thought may be because elroy and I are the ones affected by dialect not the other way round, but it's worth considering.


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## cherine

Guys, I got hold of a copy of the novel and the meaning is certainly not about prayer, nor about getting the mother's attention to their own daughters, nor about getting Zein to marry said daughters (he was more like the fool of the village, so they wouldn't be happy about such a marriage). The meaning is clearly about using the guy as a megaphone, an announcer: whenever he liked a girl, which happened often, he would sing her praise everywhere, thus drawing attention to her, which results in the girl's getting a suitable marriage.
This is why, and in the light of Matat's confirmation that يدعو cannot be conjugated into يدعين, we can only assume that الطيب صالح made an incorrect conjugation of the verb.

Edit: I'll type parts of the relevant text:

فطنت أمهات البنات إلى خطورته (أي: الزين) كبوق يدعين به لبناتهن. في مجتمع محافظ، تُحجب فيه البنات عن الفتيان، أصبح الزين رسولاً للحب، ينقل عطره من مكان إلى مكان. كان الحب يصيب قلبه أول ما يصيب، ثم ما يلبث أن ينتقل منه إلى قلب غيره، فكأنه سمسار أو دلاّل أو ساعي بريد. ينظر الزين بعينيه الصغيرتين كعيني الفار [...] إلى الفتاة الجميلة، فيصيبه منها شيء -لعله حب؟ وينوء قلبه الأبكم بهذا الحب، فتحمله قدماه النحيلتان إلى أركان البلد، [...] ويلهج لسانه بذكر الفتاة ويصيح باسمها حيثما كان، فلا تلبث الآذان أن ترهف، وما تلبث العيون أن تنتبه. وما تلبث يد فارس من بينهم أن تمتد فتأخذ الفتاة.
[...]
وما يسمع النساء أن الزين في دار قريبة حتى يتقاطرن عليه [...] وتحث الأمهات بناتهن أن يجئن ويسلمن عليه. والسعيدة منهن مَن تقع من قلبه موقعًا، والتي يخرج واسمها على فمه. تلك الفتاة تضمن زوجًا في خلال شهر أو شهرين.​


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## Matat

cherine said:


> The meaning is clearly about using the guy as a megaphone, an announcer: whenever he liked a girl, which happened often, he would sing her praise everywhere, thus drawing attention to her, which results in the girl's getting a suitable marriage.


This can't be the meaning of the sentence, whether the verb is يدعون or يدعين. If it is يدعون, then it is not the trumpet drawing attention to the daughters, but the mothers who are drawing attention to their daughters. The verb would have had to have been يدعو if it was the trumpet/megaphone drawing attention to the daughters. That is, unless you are saying that the mothers are using the trumpet to draw attention to their daughters. Is that what you meant?

And if the correct verb is يدعين, then the horn is indeed what is drawing attention to the daughters, but it's the mothers' attention specifically which is being drawn,  not the community at large, and it's drawing it toward their daughters.

However, in light of what you're saying, I have realized this sentence could mean something else with يدعين being correct. I originally assumed that كبوق was referring to Zein, but it could instead be referring to the realization of the mothers to his importance (or danger) being like a trumpet which draws their attention toward their daughters, perhaps to shelter them away from him. This fits with the rest of the paragraph that you provided as well.

EDIT: I have found the following translation by Denys Johnson-Davies:


> The marriage of the Omda's daughter and that of Haleema were a turning-point in Zein's life, for the mothers of young girls woke up to his importance as a trumpet by which attention was drawn to their daughters. In a conservative society where girls are hidden away from young men, Zein became an emissary for Love, transporting its sweet fragrance from place to place.


Corresponding to the Arabic:


> كان زواج بنت العمدة وزواج حليمة نقطة تحول في حياة الزين. فقد فطنت أمهات البنات إلى خطورته، كبوق يدعين به لبناتهن في مجتمع محافظ، تحجب فيه البنات عن الفتيان، أصبح الزين رسولا للحب، ينقل عطره من مكان إلى مكان



His translation is a bit vague. It's not clear what "as a trumpet" is supposed to refer to, be it the mother's waking up to his importance or Zein himself, and he doesn't make it clear that it's the mother's attention being drawn as the Arabic clearly shows, but he does indeed translate the verb in the passive form, so he interpreted يدعين as correct. Nevertheless, given the lack of clarity in the original Arabic sentence, this vague translation is actually pretty good.


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## cherine

Matat said:


> This can't be the meaning of the sentence, whether the verb is يدعون or يدعين. If it is يدعون, then it is not the trumpet drawing attention to the daughters, but the mothers who are drawing attention to their daughters. The verb would have had to have been يدعو if it was the trumpet/megaphone drawing attention to the daughters. That is, unless you are saying that the mothers are using the trumpet to draw attention to their daughters. Is that what you meant?


Yes, exactly. Are you missing the proposition following the verb? به It clearly indicates that the mothers are using him as a tool (trumpet or megaphone) to draw attention to their "hidden daughters" (by virtue of social norms) so that they, the girls, can get the attention of suitors and get married.

I thought we all agreed that the verb was mis-conjugated by the author. No? By the way if you can get hold of the novel, you'll find at least one or two similar mistakes, which I thought proved the conclusion we reached. Yes the verb should be يدعون.
By the way, in my humble opinion, the translator's choice of the passive voice doesn't change the meaning. It's possibly just a style choice.


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## Mahaodeh

I would go with a mistake too. A passive voice is a stretch, the trumpet is obviously Zein and the context makes more sense if the mothers were the ones drawing attention to their daughters so the daughters can get married not paying attention to their daughters. 



cherine said:


> By the way if you can get hold of the novel, you'll find at least one or two similar mistakes, which I thought proved the conclusion we reached.



Really! Oh, I would have expected that someone like Tayyb Salih would pay more attention to grammar - or at least hire someone to check his grammar for him.


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## cherine

Mahaodeh said:


> Really! Oh, I would have expected that someone like Tayyb Salih would pay more attention to grammar - or at least hire someone to check his grammar for him.


I was surprised too, but as we say جل من لا يسهو no one is infallible


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## I.K.S.

Mahaodeh said:


> or at least hire someone to check his grammar for him.


Every publishing company has its own copy editing staff, It is the first and most important step in the editorial cycle...That If the work has already been accepted of course.


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## Matat

cherine said:


> Yes, exactly. Are you missing the proposition following the verb? به It clearly indicates that the mothers are using him as a tool (trumpet or megaphone) to draw attention to their "hidden daughters" (by virtue of social norms) so that they, the girls, can get the attention of suitors and get married.





cherine said:


> I thought we all agreed that the verb was mis-conjugated by the author. No?


Ah, I see. I didn't miss the preposition, but this just feels like an awkward meaning to me. If this is what the author meant, there are much better verbs to use than يدعون to indicate Zein is being used like a trumpet. Moreover, with using يدعون, I would at least assume some direct object would be added to specify whose attention is being drawn, which is the community at large. And, on top of all of this, the fact that this is all based on the assumption that يدعين is an incorrect conjugation along with the fact that the sentence could make sense with a different meaning without making this assumption makes me extremely hesitant to accept this meaning.



cherine said:


> By the way, in my humble opinion, the translator's choice of the passive voice doesn't change the meaning. It's possibly just a style choice.


Sure, but we're not certain what the meaning is based on his translation, which in my opinion, makes this a good translation. He said "by which attention was drawn to their daughters". It is being used in the passive voice as is the Arabic verb, but he doesn't make it clear it's the mothers' attention being drawn as the Arabic would show if interpreted as being in the passive, leaving the possibility that either of the meanings could be valid, where the conjugation could be correct or incorrect. He also doesn't make it clear what "as a trumpet" is referring to.



Mahaodeh said:


> A passive voice is a stretch, the trumpet is obviously Zein and the context makes more sense if the mothers were the ones drawing attention to their daughters so the daughters can get married not paying attention to their daughters.


I don't think the passive is a stretch. When I first read it, I thought Zein was the trumpet too, but I don't see why it can't refer to the mothers' realization now after reanalyzing.



cherine said:


> By the way if you can get hold of the novel, you'll find at least one or two similar mistakes, which I thought proved the conclusion we reached.


Could you provide the mistakes you found?


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## cherine

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> Every publishing company has its own copy editing staff, It is the first and most important step in the editorial cycle...That If the work has already been accepted of course.


مستوى المراجعة في دور النشر العربية، خاصة في أواخر الستينيات (السنة التي معي طُبعت في 1969 في بيروت) وفي السبعينيات لم يكن عاليًا. للأسف.


Matat said:


> Ah, I see. I didn't miss the preposition, but this just feels like an awkward meaning to me. If this is what the author meant, there are much better verbs to use than يدعون to indicate Zein is being used like a trumpet. Moreover, with using يدعون, I would at least assume some direct object would be added to specify whose attention is being drawn, which is the community at large. And, on top of all of this, the fact that this is all based on the assumption that يدعين is an incorrect conjugation along with the fact that the sentence could make sense with a different meaning without making this assumption makes me extremely hesitant to accept this meaning.


I don't know if it's the native speaker's "hunch" or what, but I don't share you hesitation or confusion towards the sentence. To me it's a very clear sentence with an incorrect conjugation (that I admit not having pereceived). As for the object of the verb, I think we can compare this sentence to: يدعو التاجر لبضاعته. We don't need a direct object here (customers) and the sentence is clear as it is.
The same for the one we have: تدعو الأمهات لبناتهن بالبوق/بالزين the call/draw attention to their daughters. A direct objects العِرْسان is not necessary or needed. Maybe it's also a cultural thing.


> Sure, but we're not certain what the meaning is based on his translation, which in my opinion, makes this a good translation. He said "by which attention was drawn to their daughters". It is being used in the passive voice as is the Arabic verb


Is the Arabic verb in the passive voice?  I read it يَدْعِين (and with your correction I understand it should be يَدْعُون) but it's in the active voice.


> but he doesn't make it clear it's the mothers' attention being drawn as the Arabic would show if interpreted as being in the passive, leaving the possibility that either of the meanings could be valid, where the conjugation could be correct or incorrect. He also doesn't make it clear what "as a trumpet" is referring to.


"the mothers of young girls woke up to his importance as a trumpet" who else but Zein could be the trumpet?
And, again maybe this is a cultural thing, but why would the mothers' attention that is drawn? Does a mother need to notice her daughter as a possible bride? To me, it's clearly the suitors' attention that needs to be drawn to the girls, and as the girls as not allowed mingling with boys in conservative societies, a trumpet like Zein is a great tool to announce the existence, and sing the merit, of those daughters, so that young men looking for marriage can learn about them and choose the suitable ones for them.


> Could you provide the mistakes you found?


From the page 81 in the edition I found طبعة دار العودة، بيروت there's this sentence: زغرد معها جيرانها وأحبائها which should be أحباؤها. Let alone all the missing hamzas and the هاء مربوطة replacing the تاء مربوطة in many words.
In the following page, the same mistake is repeated (so it can't be a typo) انطلقت عقيرة ام الزين بالزغاريد، وزغرد معها جيرانها وحبائها (the missing alef is a typo in the book).

But just to be clear, I didn't notice many grammatical mistakes, and Tayyeb is one of the best and most famous novelists in the Arab world. The fact that he made a couple of mistakes don't make him any lesser novelist, just a human like the rest of us.


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## Matat

cherine said:


> Is the Arabic verb in the passive voice?  I read it يَدْعِين (and with your correction I understand it should be يَدْعُون) but it's in the active voice.


I thought that's what we we're discussing, whether it was يُدْعَيْنَ (passive voice-correct conjugation) or whether it was a misconjugation/typo يَدْعِينَ (active voice - incorrect conjugation where the correct form is يدعون).

كبوق يُدْعَيْنَ به = like a trumpet which they are directed with
كبوق يَدْعُونَ/يَدْعِينَ به = like a trumpet which they use to...

Essentially, it comes down to the two meanings.

1) If يدعين is meant to be يُدْعَيْنَ (i.e. a correct conjugation in the passive voice), then:
فقد فطنت أمهات البنات إلى خطورته كبوق *يُدْعَيْنَ* به لبناتهن.
في مجتمع محافظ، تحجب فيه البنات عن الفتيان، أصبح الزين رسولا للحب، ينقل عطره من مكان إلى مكان
"The mothers came to realize *his signicifance/the danger he posed; **(their realization) was like a trumpet which directed their (the mothers') attention toward their daughters (to shelter them)*. In a conservative society, girls are sheltered away from boys. Zein became an ambassador of love, transporting his fragrance from place to place."

2) If يدعين is meant to be يَدْعِينَ (i.e. an incorrect conjugation in the active voice, where it should have been يدعون):
فقد فطنت أمهات البنات إلى خطورته كبوق *يَدْعِيْنَ/يَدْعُونَ* به لبناتهن.
في مجتمع محافظ، تحجب فيه البنات عن الفتيان، أصبح الزين رسولا للحب، ينقل عطره من مكان إلى مكان
"The mothers came to *realize his importance; (Zein was) like a trumpet who the mothers used (as a tool) to call attention (of the merchants/community) toward their daughters (to find them suitors).* In a conservative society, girls are sheltered away from boys. Zein became an ambassador of love, transporting his fragrance from place to place."



cherine said:


> "the mothers of young girls woke up to his importance as a trumpet" who else but Zein could be the trumpet?


What I mean is that it's the mother's realization which is like a trumpet. Meaning: "The mothers of the young girls woke up as a trumpet". I'm essentially saying that it's فطنة الأمهات which is كبوق, not Zein which is كبوق.



cherine said:


> Does a mother need to notice her daughter as a possible bride?


No, that's not what I intended. My intention was that their attention was drawn toward their daughters to shelter them away from Zein, after you revealed he was a sort of village idiot who would fall for any girl (and probably try to entrap her in his love). As soon as they saw Zein, they immediately drew their attention toward their daughters and wanted to keep them as away from him as possible.



cherine said:


> From the page 81 in the edition I found طبعة دار العودة، بيروت there's this sentence: زغرد معها جيرانها وأحبائها which should be أحباؤها. Let alone all the missing hamzas and the هاء مربوطة replacing the تاء مربوطة in many words.
> In the following page, the same mistake is repeated (so it can't be a typo) انطلقت عقيرة ام الزين بالزغاريد، وزغرد معها جيرانها وحبائها (the missing alef is a typo in the book).


These are orthographic mistakes which are of a different category of mistakes. This book was published in 1962. I don't think the orthographic rules were as rigidly described by the Arabic academies as they are today. Moreover, the orthography could simply be the publisher's typography, not that of the author himself necessarily. This is different than a conjugation mistake of يدعون/يدعين. I don't think we can compare these two classes of mistakes as the same.


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