# South Asian Languages: <bolnaa> and transitivity



## panjabigator

In Panjabi and in Panjabi laced Hindi and Urdu, it is very common to hear the verb <bolnaa> used in the past tense as a transitive verb, i.e. <mai.n ne bolaa>.  Standard Urdu and Hindi, however, dictate that <bolnaa> is intransitive.

What is the rule in your respective languages?  Is the verb for "to speak" transitive or intransitive, and is it common to use it in the opposite manner, i.e., transitive for intransitive?


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## BP.

I'd have thrown a rant for your using _bolna_ where _kehna_ is intended had you not indemnified it by warning us you're talking about "Panjabi laced...Urdu"!

I think you've said whatever is needed on my language's behalf. Let's wait for input from disparate language backgrounds.


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## Faylasoof

Precisely my feelings!  You hear ‘bolna’ and ‘bola’ when ‘kehna’ and ‘kaha’ was intended. As a reprimand, one of our Luckhnavi friends in fit of anger over this turned to a ‘bolna-offender’, and said: is mauqe’ par insaan kahte haiN aur Sirf chiRyaaN boltee haiN!!! =  اس موقع پر انسان كہتے ہیں اور صرف چڑیاں بولتیں ہیں  .


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## Cilquiestsuens

I think the idea behind this (wrong) use of *bolna* is the same as *samajhna* : if there is an object, then the verb becomes transitive otherwise it remains intransitive, therefore no *ne*....

BP and Faylasoof, can you give an example of this wrong usage ? Do you mean something like *us ne kya bola* (instead of = *us ne kya kaha*)... I can't fancy any one making mistakes such as : *us ne kya baat boli* (instead of *kahii*)


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## panjabigator

Ah, but I hear this all the time.  When speaking with my family, it's what I use, but I'm diligent to not use this outside of the house.

Look forward to reading the examples.


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## lcfatima

Nakhray karne wallay sab ke sab! I must do this all the time, but as a non-native speaker it must be influence from my environment. 

How should one use kahna and bolna, please provide model sentences.

I also had know idea that bolna is prescriptively intransitive.


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## Cilquiestsuens

lcfatima said:


> Nakhray karne wallay sab ke sab!


 

Lo jii !



lcfatima said:


> How should one use kahna and bolna, please provide model sentences.
> 
> I also had know idea that bolna is prescriptively intransitive.


 
Here I would ask you to wait for Faylasoof or BP to give us some guidance on this topic..


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## BP.

Oh la la Icfatima, quels gros râleurs ces _nakhray-baaz_, non?!!

Leaving the grammar aside for more knowledgeable people I'd just comment of _bolna_ vs _kehna_. This is nowadays the first yardstick to separate those who speak _shusta_ Urdu from those who don't care about their language.

*kehna* = to say e.g _maiN nay usay yeh kaha_.

* bolna* = to speak (but not exactly); to utter something.
We can say _woh bol paRaa_: he spoke up.
But _us nay mujh say baat ki_: s/he spoke to me.

_* bataana*_ = tell e.g. _usay bataa do_: tell him/her.

Cilko, how you're saying is the right manner. But people do say '_us ne kya baat boli_' e.g.  uneducated youth speaking Mumbai and Karachi slang!

The quote I've learnt to educate people on this issue is "_jaanvar boltay haiN, insaan kehtay haiN_". Usually shames them into branding themselves human instead of animals.


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## lcfatima

BP: Mujhe French nahin aati, jenaab. But thanks for the list. 

Social attitudes are revealed in such quotes. It is telling that this is a marker of register strongly associated with Punjabi speakers, as well.


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## panjabigator

Right.  I wonder if this is considered markedly incorrect in the Panjab as well.  I'd venture to say no, since I hear it all the time, but I'm unsure.


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## BP.

There should be a difference between _dasso_ and _bolo_ don't you think?


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## panjabigator

There is.  <dasso> is to <bataao> and <bolo> is <bolo>, but I'm certain I hear <bolo> very often.


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## BP.

_kaho_ too is _bataao_, though is considered more civil than the latter.


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## Illuminatus

Thanks, Gator, for two things!

1. Unfortunately, I've often been guilty of this mis-usage. So much so that my native ears find nothing wrong whatsoever with _Maine bolaa_!!! So, thanks for bringing it out. I guess it is specific of this verb. _Jaana_ is intransitive too, but _Maine gaya _sounds disastrously wrong.

2. I had long wondered why we put _ne_ after main for some verbs but not for others. My feel so sheepish now when I found that reason is so simple. This, I guess, is the advantage of learning a language non-natively!


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## panjabigator

I have some wonderful grammar books and so I'll draft some response up later tonight that addresses "ne".


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## panjabigator

How is Marathi in this aspect?  Is <bolnaa> transitive or intransitive?


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## lcfatima

Panjabigator since the time this thread was made so very long ago, I have paid close attention to 'bolna' in place of kahna usage. My observation is that it is very prolific. Everyone is saying bolna where they should prescriptively say kahna. Not just Panjabis.


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## panjabigator

lcfatima said:


> Panjabigator since the time this thread was made so very long ago, I have paid close attention to 'bolna' in place of kahna usage. My observation is that it is very prolific. Everyone is saying bolna where they should prescriptively say kahna. Not just Panjabis.



I agree - I also found a case of it in Poetry.  



> koi bole rām rām, koi khudāi



I suspect that the writer (it's from the Guru Granth Sahib, but I don't remember which Guru/Sant wrote it) was not inferring animality here.  Perhaps I can just generalize and say that in Punjabi and Punjabi laced Hindi/Urdu, <bolnā> is O.K. for <kahnā>.


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## tonyspeed

I believe that the usage is so prolific that it is considered a personal choice whether to treat bolna as a transitive verb or not, at least according to a certain Hindi grammar book in my possession.


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## teaboy

MaiN ne bola sounds like a Punjabi naukar in Lahore speaking.  Just does not sound like correct Urdu to me.  In fact, it sounds like a mistake that foreign learners would make!


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## panjabigator

I have also heard this from a "good" Urdu speaker in Lucknow.


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> In Panjabi and in Panjabi laced Hindi and Urdu, it is very common to hear the verb <bolnaa> used in the past tense as a transitive verb, i.e. <mai.n ne bolaa>.  Standard Urdu and Hindi, however, dictate that <bolnaa> is intransitive.
> 
> What is the rule in your respective languages?  Is the verb for "to speak" transitive or intransitive, and is it common to use it in the opposite manner, i.e., transitive for intransitive?



*PG SaaHib. Would a Punjabi ever say, "maiN ne boliyaa" when speaking Punjabi?!!!*



Cilquiestsuens said:


> I think the idea behind this (wrong) use of *bolna* is the same as *samajhna* : if there is an object, then the verb becomes transitive otherwise it remains intransitive, therefore no *ne*....
> 
> BP and Faylasoof, can you give an example of this wrong usage ? Do you mean something like *us ne kya bola* (instead of = *us ne kya kaha*)... I can't fancy any one making mistakes such as : *us ne kya baat boli* (instead of *kahii*)



*Here is an example of "samjhnaa".

patthar kii muuratoN meN samjhaa hai tuu Khudaa hai
Khaak-i-vatan kaa muj ko har zarrah devtaa hai

Iqbal (nayaa shivaalah)
*



BelligerentPacifist said:


> Oh la la Icfatima, quels gros râleurs ces _nakhray-baaz_, non?!!
> 
> Leaving the grammar aside for more knowledgeable people I'd just comment of _bolna_ vs _kehna_. This is nowadays the first yardstick to separate those who speak _shusta_ Urdu from those who don't care about their language.
> 
> *kehna* = to say e.g _maiN nay usay yeh kaha_.
> 
> * bolna* = to speak (but not exactly); to utter something.
> We can say _woh bol paRaa_: he spoke up.
> But _us nay mujh say baat ki_: s/he spoke to me.
> 
> _* bataana*_ = tell e.g. _usay bataa do_: tell him/her.
> 
> Cilko, how you're saying is the right manner. But people do say '_us ne kya baat boli_' e.g.  uneducated youth speaking Mumbai and Karachi slang!
> 
> The quote I've learnt to educate people on this issue is "_jaanvar boltay haiN, insaan kehtay haiN_". Usually shames them into branding themselves human instead of animals.



*But BP SaaHib, "jaan-var" hii to bolte haiN! aap ne kabhii pattharoN ko bhii bolte sunaa hai? haaN agar aap film "giit gaayaa pattharoN ne" jaisii baateN kar rahe haiN to yih ek aur baat hai!*



lcfatima said:


> BP: Mujhe French nahin aati, jenaab. But thanks for the list.
> 
> Social attitudes are revealed in such quotes. It is telling that this is a marker of register strongly associated with Punjabi speakers, as well.



*I am not sure but I am glad you added the "as well" part!*



panjabigator said:


> Right.  I wonder if this is considered markedly incorrect in the Panjab as well.  I'd venture to say no, since I hear it all the time, but I'm unsure.



*I would hazard a guess and say that "bolNRaa" is used a lot less frequently than "aakhNRaa" or "kahNRaa" by Punjabis.*



BelligerentPacifist said:


> There should be a difference between _dasso_ and _bolo_ don't you think?



*Yes, the difference is the same as in "bataanaa" and "bolnaa". In the right context, they can be the same. Supposing we were close friends.. and in a restaurant I am about to order some delicacies.

BP, bataa'o kyaa khaa'o ge?

BP, bolo, kyaa khaa'o ge?

Even..

BP, kaho, kyaa khaa'o ge?


*



panjabigator said:


> I agree - I also found a case of it in Poetry.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the writer (it's from the Guru Granth Sahib, but I don't remember which Guru/Sant wrote it) was not inferring animality here.  Perhaps I can just generalize and say that in Punjabi and Punjabi laced Hindi/Urdu, <bolnā> is O.K. for <kahnā>.



*As I have indicated elsewhere, the use of "kahnaa vs bolnaa" is not "black and white". There are contexts where both could be used. However, I would add that where it is wrong, it is wrong and it is NOT OK "in Punjabi laced Urdu/Hindi" to use bolnaa for kahnaa.*



tonyspeed said:


> I believe that the usage is so prolific that it is considered a personal choice whether to treat bolna as a transitive verb or not, at least according to a certain Hindi grammar book in my possession.



*In Urdu at least "----ne bolaa" is simply wrong!*



teaboy said:


> MaiN ne bola sounds like a Punjabi naukar in Lahore speaking.  Just does not sound like correct Urdu to me.  In fact, it sounds like a mistake that foreign learners would make!




*But, intriguingly, "the Punjabi servant" does not say "maiN ne boliyaa" when speaking Punjabi!!*



panjabigator said:


> I have also heard this from a "good" Urdu speaker in Lucknow.



*This I suppose shows the degree of decline of Urdu in Lucknow. Or, the person you mention can not be considered a "good" Urdu speaker!*



panjabigator said:


> I have some wonderful grammar books and so I'll draft some response up later tonight that addresses "ne".



*It has been over two and a half years! Did you ever get the opportunity to look into those "wonderful grammar books"?

Let me add a little, as I do not have access to my books at the moment. Most of them, including Punjabi grammar books, are lying in boxes in the "loft" waiting to be rescued.

maiN boliyaa      
asiiN bole

tuuN boliyaa
tusiiN bole

o boliyaa
o bole

I believe the above is correct summary but I am open to corrections. 

*


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## Qureshpor

*I hardly ever use "bolNRaa". Let's compare "bolNRaa, aakhNRaa and likhNRaa".*

*maiN boliyaa*
*asiiN bole*

*tuuN boliyaa*
*tusiiN bole*

*o boliyaa*
*o bole*
*...............................................*

*maiN aakhiyaa*
*asiiN/asaaN aakhiyaa*

*tuuN aakhiyaa*
*tusiiN/tusaaN aakhiyaa*

*os aakhiyaa*
*ohnaaN aakhiyaa*
*................................*

*maiN likhiyaa*
*asiiN/asaaN likhiyaa*

*tuuN likhiyaa*
*tusiiN /tusaaN likhiyaa*

*os (ne) likhyaa*
*ohnaaN (ne) likhiyaa*
*........................................*


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## Faylasoof

[
QUOTE=teaboy;10953832]
MaiN ne bola .....Just does not sound like correct Urdu to me. In fact, it sounds like a mistake that foreign learners would make!
[/QUOTE]I agree with you entirely!

_maiN ne bolaa_ _/ aap ne bolaa_ etc. _are _indeed incorrect! It ought to be _maiN ne kahaa_! All about a verb being intransitive or transitive and how a verb / which verb is used depends on the situation. All these are correct :

_maiN bolaa _
_maiN ne kahaa_
_maiN jo bolaa _
_maiN ne jo kahaa_
_etc._

_*کہا میں نے کتنا*__ ہے گل_ کا ثبات 
کلی _نے_ یہ سن کر تبسم کیا

_kahaa maiN ne__ kitnaa hai gul kaa thabaat !_
_kalii ne yeh sun kar tabassum kiyaa_

… and this,

*میں جو بولا *کہا کہ یہ آواز
اُسی خانہ خراب کی سی ہے
_maiN jo bolaa__ kahaa keh aawaaz_
_usii xaanah xaraab kii sii hai_
(Mir )


panjabigator said:


> I have also heard this from a "good" Urdu speaker in Lucknow.


PG, the trouble with even some _supposedly_ ‘good’ Urdu speakers today, whether in India or Paksitan, is that they too are giving in to this grammatical blunder! It is just like the use of _maiN ne jaanaa hai*_, which is just as wrong, instead of _muje jaanaa hai_, - grammatically correct. However, you hear the former from many (too many for my comfort) who ought to know better. 

Some of course think it is really ‘cool’ to speak like this, some because they don’t know and some because they couldn’t care less – _sab chaltaa hai_, as a gentleman once told me. 
[* We already have a thread where this came up.]


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> Before we start beating poor ungrammatical ignoramuses for corrupting the Urdu language, let us remember that no language ever started in a book. The choice of what was grammatical vs what was ungrammatical was made by a certain privileged group of men that decided that the way the we SHOULD speak Urdu is the way we speak it here in Delhi in the two blocks surrounding the seat of government .... If you understand my example, you will see that at that point in time( say if I were on the board) a far-sighted soul could have said, "well let us also recognise the formation main ne jaana hai because it is spoken that way as well over there". So the terms "correct" and "incorrect" break down in colloquial communication and only apply to formal communication where uniformity is necessary.
> 
> Maybe the so-called "incorrect" forms even predate the so-called "correct" forms. Surely they predate both my and your birth, making us all imbeciles on this subject.



*Tonyspeed Sahib. I shall try to be as brief as possible because there is a danger of going completely off topic.

1) "maiN ne jaanaa hai" would be construed as incorrect by Urdu and Hindi grammarians.

2) The postposition "ne" apparently only surfaced around the 17th Century. I came across a very interesting article on the net, "The Dative-Ergative Connection". Please do read it. According to this "ko" precedes "ne"

3) "We was going to the cinema when he come and punched me", " I says to him, "Get over here!". You will agree that students taking an English examination could very well be penalised if they used these kinds of sentences.
*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Tonyspeed Sahib. I shall try to be as brief as possible because there is a danger of going completely off topic.
> 
> 1) "maiN ne jaanaa hai" would be construed as incorrect by Urdu and Hindi grammarians.
> 
> 2) The postposition "ne" apparently only surfaced around the 17th Century. I came across a very interesting article on the net, "The Dative-Ergative Connection". Please do read it. According to this "ko" precedes "ne"
> 
> 3) "We was going to the cinema when he come and punched me", " I says to him, "Get over here!". You will agree that students taking an English examination could very well be penalised if they used these kinds of sentences.
> *


 I agree that both *maiN ne bola* (thread topic) and _*maiN ne jaanaa*_ (same postposition construction mentioned only by way of another example) are both considered incorrect according to standard grammars of both Hindi and Urdu. 

Yes, we might start to drift! 

*Other issues mentioned in posts further up can be discussed in another forum which is why I shall not bother pursuing them here!*


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> *میں جو بولا *کہا کہ یہ آواز
> اُسی خانہ خراب کی سی ہے
> 
> _maiN jo bolaa__ kahaa keh aawaaz_
> _usii xaanah xaraab kii sii hai_
> 
> (Mir)



*It is not always easy to define the difference in usage for "bolnaa" and "kahnaa", but this is a helpful example.

The very moment Miir makes an uttering (bolaa), his beloved says (kahaa), "aavaaz usii Khaanah-Kharaab kii sii hai". It seems as if "kahnaa", more often than not is followed by the actual words uttered which might not always be the case for "bolnaa".
*


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> 2) The postposition "ne" apparently only surfaced around the 17th Century.
> *




Interesting. Which would explain why Bhojpuri omits the use of ne completely. Imagine their chagrin at the dominance of KhaDi Boli and ne. But if that is the case, this paper makes no sense: 

"Ergativity in Indo-Aryan Languages"  which claims that languages such as Bengali lost it's ergativity in the modern period as Old Bengali had it. So does this mean "ne" was introduced as a sort of ergative marker to be more like the languages around it (even though it already had an ergative case)? 

Slightly, more on topic, this paper references bolna as  marginally allowing for ergative subjects.


UPDATE: This paper, Ergativity in Indo Aryan by Miriam Butt and Ashwini Deo elucidates the situation a bit further. There was always a maker in Hindi (-e), but it was replaced with Ne a few hundred years ago -  probably, as you mentioned, due to the dialect of a few privileged with access to shah jahan's court. (being one of several theories)


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## panjabigator

I will read these papers with much interest!

QP Sahib, I was in India when I wrote the post on my grammar books much like I am today. Alas, I never got back to them, but you're welcome to consult Shmidt's book on Urdu grammar. I do believe she discusses "ne" in detail.

I don't think you would ever hear "main ne boliyaa" from a Punjabi _ahl-e-zabaan_, at least in what I have heard in Indian Punjab. The 'ne" is never used in the first and second person singular and plural, though you can say "asiin lokan ne". Some western dialects remove the "ne" all together! Hindko, for example, doesn't use a "ne," I believe.

QP Sahib, what about in Punjabi boliyaan? "main koi jhuut boliyaa?" Often times these are sung by women, though they might be speaking as men during the time. There is a lot of gender masquerading that goes on in Punjabi bolis.


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> I will read these papers with much interest!
> 
> QP Sahib, I was in India when I wrote the post on my grammar books much like I am today. Alas, I never got back to them, but you're welcome to consult Shmidt's book on Urdu grammar. I do believe she discusses "ne" in detail.
> 
> *PG SaaHib. I have read Schmid's book from cover to cover (along with others!), although currently it is not (easily) accessible for me. I have even been in touch with her regarding some omissions but she said that their inclusion would have made the book too bulky.
> 
> You might remember that in this forum I mentioned that, according to her, the Punjabi use of "maiN ne jaanaa hai" provides an extra dimention which is absent from the correct "mujhe jaanaa hai". I also mentioned (I think) that whilst she still considers the "ne" form incorrect in Urdu, C.M.Naim (from Barabanki, India and a mother tongue Urdu speaker) regards it as correct now! But being the stickler I am for accuracy, I will stick with the original! Oh, I have been in touch with janaab-i-C.M.Naim too but our contact did not prove to be very "productive"!
> 
> * I don't think you would ever hear "main ne boliyaa" from a Punjabi _ahl-e-zabaan_, at least in what I have heard in Indian Punjab. The 'ne" is never used in the first and second person singular and plural, though you can say "asiin lokan ne". Some western dialects remove the "ne" all together! Hindko, for example, doesn't use a "ne," I believe.
> 
> *This is the very point that I have been trying to make! As a Punjabi speaker, I am somewhat surprised that you did not comment on this. I think that if the Punjabis are saying "maiN ne bolaa", then it is not due to their language which, as I have shown by examples, practically does n't have "ne", they are adding a "ne" to compensate for the Urdu AND they are unlikely to be aware of the intransitive/transitive divide!*
> 
> QP Sahib, what about in Punjabi boliyaan? "main koi jhuut boliyaa?" Often times these are sung by women, though they might be speaking as men during the time. There is a lot of gender masquerading that goes on in Punjabi bolis.
> 
> *I thought of quoting this "bolii" as it is used in one of the film songs but decided to wait for your response. In summary, Punjabis would not use "maiN ne boliyaa" themselves!*


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> Interesting. Which would explain why Bhojpuri omits the use of ne completely. Imagine their chagrin at the dominance of KhaDi Boli and ne. But if that is the case, this paper makes no sense:
> 
> "Ergativity in Indo-Aryan Languages"  which claims that languages such as Bengali lost it's ergativity in the modern period as Old Bengali had it. So does this mean "ne" was introduced as a sort of ergative marker to be more like the languages around it (even though it already had an ergative case)?
> 
> Slightly, more on topic, this paper references bolna as  marginally allowing for ergative subjects.
> 
> 
> UPDATE: This paper, Ergativity in Indo Aryan by Miriam Butt and Ashwini Deo elucidates the situation a bit further. There was always a maker in Hindi (-e), but it was replaced with Ne a few hundred years ago -  probably, as you mentioned, due to the dialect of a few privileged with access to shah jahan's court. (being one of several theories)



*Tony SaaHib. Your post requires some careful scrutiny and further reading. Time permitting, I shall do that and if necessary, make a response.*


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## panjabigator

> *This is the very point that I have been trying to  make! As a Punjabi speaker, I am somewhat surprised that you did not  comment on this. I think that if the Punjabis are saying "maiN ne  bolaa", then it is not due to their language which, as I have shown by  examples, practically does n't have "ne", they are adding a "ne" to  compensate for the Urdu AND they are unlikely to be aware of the  intransitive/transitive divide!*


I should have been more explicit in the beginning, but I never implied that Punjabi used the "ne" in this fashion. I only said "Punjabi laced Hindi/Urdu" and inquired about "bolna" and transitivity. But Punjabi does have "ne"; it's just not that extended. It also used in different ways.



> *In summary, Punjabis would not use "maiN ne boliyaa" themselves!*


I've always agreed.


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## greatbear

lcfatima said:


> Panjabigator since the time this thread was made so very long ago, I have paid close attention to 'bolna' in place of kahna usage. My observation is that it is very prolific. Everyone is saying bolna where they should prescriptively say kahna. Not just Panjabis.



Transitive usage of "bolna" has been especially made popular by Mumbai-based Hindi cinema, the superhit song "Ae, kya bolti tu" being an example.


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