# Surnames invariable despite gender / variable according to gender



## Villeggiatura

Hello
I have very little knowledge of gender variable surnames in European languages besides the Slavic ones like -v (male) & -va (female), -ski(j) & -ska(ya). Is it a fact that gender variable surnames are uncommon in non-Slavic European languages? 

It's rather common for a male given name to have a female form regardless of its origin, e.g.,
Alexander / Alexandra (of Greek origin)
Émile /  Émilie (of Latin origin)
Federico / Federica (of German origin)
Gabriel / Gabriella (of Hebrew origin)
I don't know whether it was heavily influenced by the gender variable Roman praenomina and nomina.

Why weren't the surnames influenced in a similar fashion?


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## Riverplatense

Well, there are surnames showing distinctions regarding the gender. Scandinavian languages, e. g., with patronyms can have different forms for women (_-dotter_, _-dóttir_ etc.) and men (-_son_, -_sen_). Also in German there are female forms, too, even though not according to the convention any more, for instance _Luise Millerin_ in Schiller's _Kabale und Liebe_.

Then there are languages which often have plural forms as surnames, already indicating a «group», a number of (family) members, like _Ferrari_ (‹Smith-s›, South Italian) or _Tom(m)asi_ (from _Tomas_).


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## Villeggiatura

Riverplatense said:


> Scandinavian languages, e. g., with patronyms can have different forms for women (_-dotter_, _-dóttir_ etc.) and men (-_son_, -_sen_). Also in German there are female forms, too, even though not according to the convention any more, for instance _Luise Millerin_ in Schiller's _Kabale und Liebe_.


Great information.



Riverplatense said:


> Then there are languages which often have plural forms as surnames, already indicating a «group», a number of (family) members, like _Ferrari_ (‹Smith-s›, South Italian) or _Tom(m)asi_ (from _Tomas_).


That's why I was intrigued when I learnt that Piero della Francesca was also (or originally?) named Piero de' Franceschi.


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## fdb

In Modern Greek woman usually have the genitive form of the surname of their father (if they are unmarried) or their husband (if married). Thus the daughter or wife of Mr Papadopoulos will be Miss/Mrs Papadopoulou.


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## Stoggler

In Scottish Gaelic and in Irish, most surnames are based on patronymics and there are female versions of those.  Those names beginning with Mac (son of), the mac element is replaced with nic to make it female.  So a man called Calum MacNèill might have a wife called Catrìona NicNèill.

Historically in Wales, there was a similar process.  Again the Welsh used a patronymic system where men had a patronymic formed with "ap" followed by the father's name: to use a historical example from the 13th century, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd means that Llywelyn's father was called Gruffudd.  I believe that if the father's name started with a vowel then ap became ab (as in Gwenwynwyn ab Owain, another historical example).  The female equivalent isto replace ap with ferch (a mutated form of the Welsh word for daughter, which is merch in its uninflected form).

Such patronymics fell out of use as Anglicized forms became standard, but you can often see the "ap" element in some common surnames in Wales (Price/Pryce comes from ap Rhys, Parry comes from ap Harri, Pugh/Puw comes from ap Huw).  Patronymics have come back into fashion a little in recent years though, so you now find people with re-Cymracized (to coin a term) surnames.  Read the credits of any S4C television programme and you'll see a few.


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## apmoy70

Similar discussion HERE


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## Villeggiatura

Another intriguing case: Rudolph Valentino, originally Rodolfo di Valentina.


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## sotos

fdb said:


> In Modern Greek woman usually have the genitive form of the surname of their father (if they are unmarried) or their husband (if married). Thus the daughter or wife of Mr Papadopoulos will be Miss/Mrs Papadopoulou.


Almost always. However, there are men whose surname is in genitive,  too - in that case meaning "_son of_...". In some christian greek surnames of foreign origing, the genitive is the same with the nominative, e.g. Mr and Mrs Michael, Mr and Mrs Adam


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## Perseas

fdb said:


> In Modern Greek woman usually have the genitive form of the surname of their father (if they are unmarried) or their husband (if married).


Many women keep their surname (i.e. the genitive form of the surname of their father) even if they marry or have both surnames (that of their father and their husband), at least in the last two decades.


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## quasi.stellar

Villeggiatura said:


> Another intriguing case: Rudolph Valentino, originally Rodolfo di Valentina.


Not exactly true.
The real actor's name was *Rodolfo Guglielmi* (in public registers)
A Castellaneta, the father was a veterinarian, sick of snobbery that studies the heraldry in search of his fourth of nobility ... He came to the ridiculous suffix "Valentina d'Antonguella" that no one knows what it means, but, if anything, he will serve his son to obtain a *pseudonym* ...
So the father's name was Giovanni Guglielmi Valentina d'Antonguella, a total false name.
The father, Giovanni Guglielmi (then Valentina D'Antonguella), a native of Martina Franca, former captain of cavalry and heraldry enthusiast, studied his family ancestry and, convinced that he related to noble papal, added to his surname the title "of Valentina D'Antonguella".
His mother, Marie Gabrielle Bardin, actually Bardini, born in France but originally from Piedmont parents, Bardini, noble service to the Savoy, became the Marquise lady companion of the place. The surname Bardini was then transformed into Bardin to better fit in the context of the French nobility.
Rodolfo Valentino | Sprazzi di Nobiltà | la loro storia è anche la nostra storia

They were times in which change its own names was neither impossible nor bad seen. Nobody controlled, most of all why he changed nationallity. And most of people, at that time, could't read and write.
--------------------------------------

An interessant case, in my opinion, reguards male's names in -a, coming directly from Greek:
Andrea (meaning strong male, very macho)
Nicola (meaning winning man)
Luca (meaning the lighter)
No other country use those names in this form (poor our little boys who get always jockey)
They are masculine names, like Epaminonda, Pelopida, Anassagora, Pitagora, all males.

The feminine form is tramite a small form:
Andreina
Nicoletta
(Luca haven't feminine form).
--------------------------------------

Surnames come from family:
Dante (degli) Alighieri
Cecco (degli) Angiolieri
Lorenzo de' (dei) Medici

or from the father:
Peppino de Filippo
Marcello (di) Mastroianni (Mastro Janni, Mastro Giovanni)

Or from the bird's site:
*Leonardo da Vinci* (Vinci is a little town near Florence)
Giovanni da Procida (Procida is an island in front of Neaple)
Giovanni da Milano
Francesco d'Assisi

Or from the job:
Ludovico Muratori
Carpentieri
Pittori
(termination in -i indicates membership in corporation)

Other were only nicknames that were later cristallized in surnames.
We must not count celebrities who took stage names.


PS
Sorry for my bad english.


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## Villeggiatura

quasi.stellar said:


> .
> A Castellaneta ...
> Rodolfo Valentino | Sprazzi di Nobiltà | la loro storia è anche la nostra storia


Riveting. Do you have information on Piero della Francesca / de' Franceschi?



quasi.stellar said:


> An interessant case, in my opinion, reguards male's names in -a, coming directly from Greek:
> Andrea (meaning strong male, very macho)
> Nicola (meaning winning man)
> Luca (meaning the lighter)
> No other country use those names in this form (poor our little boys who get always jockey)
> They are masculine names, like Epaminonda, Pelopida, Anassagora, Pitagora, all males.


In Russian:
Foma (Thomas)
Luka (Lukas)
Kuzma (Kosmas)
Nikita (Niketas)
Savva (Sabbas)

They're not surprising given the classical precedents:
Agrippa (Latin) Agrippas (Greek)
Numa (Latin) Numas (Greek)
Sulla (Latin) Syllas (Greek)


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## Forero

fdb said:


> In Modern Greek woman usually have the genitive form of the surname of their father (if they are unmarried) or their husband (if married). Thus the daughter or wife of Mr Papadopoulos will be Miss/Mrs Papadopoulou.


Somehow I thought Constantinos Hronás could have a daughter Dímitra Hroná_._ Did I misunderstand, or should her surname name be Hronoú instead of Hroná?


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## Perseas

Forero said:


> Somehow I thought Constantinos Hronás could have a daughter Dímitra Hroná_._
> Did I misunderstand, or should her surname name be Hronoú instead of Hroná?


Χρον*άς *(nominative) > man
Χρον*ά* (genitive) > woman

Παπαδόπουλ*ος* (nominative) > man
Παπαδοπούλ*ου* (genitive) > woman

Λάμπρ*ης* (nominative) > man
Λάμπρ*η* (genitive) > woman

Αγγέλ*ου* (genitive) > man 
Αγγέλ*ου* (genitive) > woman


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## Forero

Perseas said:


> Χρον*άς *(nominative) > man
> Χρον*ά* (genitive) > woman
> 
> Παπαδόπουλ*ος* (nominative) > man
> Παπαδοπούλ*ου* (genitive) > woman
> 
> Λάμπρ*ης* (nominative) > man
> Λάμπρ*η* (genitive) > woman
> 
> Αγγέλ*ου* (genitive) > man
> Αγγέλ*ου* (genitive) > woman


Thank you.

I get it now. Modern Greek genitive is more like accusative than Koine genitive.


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## quasi.stellar

Villeggiatura said:


> Riveting. Do you have information on Piero della Francesca / de' Franceschi?


Piero was born from Benedetto de' Franceschi, rich man of the cloth trade, and Romana di Perino da Monterchi, a noblewoman of the Umbrian family the family surname was "de Franceschi", that means of the Franceschi family.
Mother was = doughter of Pierino
da Monterchi = from the town Monterchi

Sometimes sons took surname from father and sometime from mother (rare). Or sometime, like this, from the name of the little country, farm, wood in property of family. "La Francesca" surely was named the palace where family lived. So everyone living in the hous could be named "person della (of the) Francesca".

Same could be said about Giovanni della Gherardesca, et similia.


You have reason about prenames in -a, but very few people has classical culture, and that for little children at primary school some time is a problem.
What I was saing is that those names, quite commun in Italy, become a problem in raport of other children who tend to give a feminine meaning to poor masculine kids, they tend to misunderstand each other.


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## francisgranada

Whatever be the origin of the father's surname, in Italian (Spanish and other Romance languages) the sons and daughters have the same surname. In case of surnames with prepositions like _di/da/de ..._ it's obvious, because these prepositions mean _of/from_, so there is no reason to change the gender of the noun indicating the provenience. E.g. in case of Leonardo _da Vinci_ or Maria _da Vinci_ it is grammatically irrelevant if the person that comes _from Vinci_ is a man or a woman ...

According to the logic of some Slavic languages, in case of daughters or wife one might expect the feminine form of surnames that are grammatically adjectives, for example in Slovak we have _Peter_ _Biel*y*_  but _Mária Biel_*a *(_biely,-a,-e _means "white")_. _Neverthless in Italian (Spanish ...) the surnames remain unchanged, so in Italian we have _Pietro Bianco_ but also _Maria Bianco_ (not _*Bianca_).

In my opinion, the logic behind is that the surname _Bianco _(in my example) was given to some ancestor of the descendants with this surname for some reason (e.g. he had bright hair or skin ...), but not to the descendants. The descendants inherit the name, not it's  meaning ...

On the other hand, in some Slavic languages the formation of the feminine surnames has been grammaticalized (it has become a rule) so that e.g. in Slovak we have also _Merk(e)lová_, _Sarkozyová, Sárközyová_, _Obamová_, _Berlusconiová_, _Allbrightová_, etc ... To be correct, according to the recent laws, this -_ová _is no more obligatory (one can choose).



quasi.stellar said:


> ... An interessant case, in my opinion, reguards male's names in -a, coming directly from Greek:
> Andrea (meaning strong male, very macho)
> Nicola (meaning winning man)
> Luca (meaning the lighter) ...


I think the main reason is the disappearance of the final _*-s *_in Italian in general (e.g. in Spanish we have _Andrés, Nicolás, Lucas, Pitágoras,_ etc ....),



> ...Surnames come from family:
> Dante (degli) Alighieri
> Cecco (degli) Angiolieri
> Lorenzo de' (dei) Medici


 Not necessarily. In some cases the ending _*-i*_ comes from the Latin genitive, e.g. _Martin*i* _is supposed to mean "(the son/daughter) of Martinus" or "Martin's (son/daughter)", not "dei Martini".


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## Ben Jamin

Riverplatense said:


> Well, there are surnames showing distinctions regarding the gender. Scandinavian languages, e. g., with patronyms can have different forms for women (_-dotter_, _-dóttir_ etc.) and men (-_son_, -_sen_).


The only country in Europe that uses patronymics today is Iceland, and Icelandic  patronymics *are not surnames*. The same was valid with the historical patronymics in Scandinavian countries Denmark, Norway and Sweden. To be a surname a name must be inherited from the former generation.
In Norway the last patronymics used as official names were in use for a generation living by the turn of the XIX and XX century, but they were only male patronymics (ending with -sen). Female patronymics (-datter) got out of use a generation earlier.


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## Nawaq

Nothing much interesting in French. Surnames don't change with gender.



> Whatever be the origin of the father's surname, in Italian (Spanish and other Romance languages) the sons and daughters have the same surname.



My brother has my father's name, my sister is going to marry her long time boyfriend so she'll take his name but for now she have our father's name. I have our mother's name. 

Maybe I'm a rarity.


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## Villeggiatura

I learnt this through Donizetti's opera "Maria Stuarda": the surname of Mary Stuart in Italian is _Stuarda_; while (the House of) Stuart in Italian is _Stuart_, according to wikipedia.


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## francisgranada

I've noticed in the novel of Don Quixote that while his "legal" name was_ Alonso Quijan*o*_, his niece is mentioned as _Antonia Quijan*a*_. Does it mean that in the past the Spanish (and perhaps other Romance) surnames tended to have also a feminine form (at least in case they were formally adjectives)?


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## francisgranada

Villeggiatura said:


> ...  Is it a fact that gender variable surnames are uncommon in non-Slavic European languages? ...


As the Hungarian was not yet mentioned, I give you some information about it.

The Hungarian has no grammatical genders, so a proper feminine form of a surname cannot exist, however there is the suffix _*-né*_, which in surnames is used in the sense of "the wife of". Etymologically this _-né_ is (most probably) a contraction  of the word _neje_ (= his wife, "the wife of"). According to the agglutinative character of the Hungarian language, _-né_ can be added also to other nouns (not exclusively to surnames) and in case of more complex expressions it's added to the last noun.

Possible examples:

_Andrássy*né*_ (Mrs Andrássy > the wife of Mr Andrássy)
_Andrássy Péter*né*_ (> the wife of Peter Andrássy)
_Andrássy Péter gróf*né*_ (> the wife of count Peter Andrássy)
_doktor*né*_ (> the wife of the doctor)
_király*né*_ (> the wife of the king, i.e. not a ruling queen)
etc ...

Thus, the "full name" of e.g. the _countess_ _Anna née Zichy_ that has married the _marquis Peter Pallavicini_ could be expressed as follows:

_Gróf Zichy Anna Pallavicini Péter márki*né *_or _Zichy Anna grófnő Pallavicini Péter márki*né*_


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## Sardokan1.0

francisgranada said:


> I've noticed in the novel of Don Quixote that while his "legal" name was_ Alonso Quijan*o*_, his niece is mentioned as _Antonia Quijan*a*_. Does it mean that in the past the Spanish (and perhaps other Romance) surnames tended to have also a feminine form (at least in case they were formally adjectives)?




A similar thing is present in Sardinian; in central and northern Sardinian surnames have also a plural form, and just in plural they can change their gender, but only if they are also adjectives, instead if they are simple nouns they retain their original gender

example :

*Sardinian surnames that are also adjectives*
_Mannu _(big) _Canu _(white haired) _Testone _(big headed) _Bassu _(short) _Rassu _(fat) _Russu _(large) _Pintus _(painted) _Nieddu _(black) _Ruju _(red) 

plurals :
The Mannu brothers, etc.etc.* ->* _Frades Mannos, Canos, Testones, Bassos, Rassos, Russos, Pintos, Nieddos, Rujos_
The Mannu sisters, etc.etc. *->* _Sorres Mannas, Canas, Testonas, Bassas, Rassas, Russas, Pintas, Nieddas, Rujas_

*Sardinian surnames that are also nouns*
_Piga _(magpie) _Serra (saw) Manca (left) Ferreri _(blacksmith) _Pala _(shoulder) _Fenu _(hay) _Casu _(cheese) _Soru _(buttermilk) _Carvone _(coal)

plurals :
The Piga brothers / sisters etc.etc. *->* _Frades / Sorres Pigas, Serras, Mancas, Ferreris, Palas, Fenos, Casos, Soros, Carvones_


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## Ben Jamin

In Rome a daughter of a Roman citizen with "nomen gentilicium" Claudius was known as Claudia. Respectively it was Julius> Julia, Lucius> Lucia, Licinius> Licinia, and so on.


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## francisgranada

Ben Jamin said:


> In Rome a daughter of a Roman citizen with "nomen gentilicium" Claudius was known as Claudia. Respectively it was Julius> Julia, Lucius> Lucia, Licinius> Licinia, and so on.


Yes, plus in case of more sisters they had a kind of _cognomen_: _Minor, Prima, Secunda, Tercia ..._ I wonder how e.g. the father called,  let's say, his second-born daugther? "Claudia, veni ad me!" or "Secunda, veni ad me!"  ...


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## Scholiast

Greetings all

Apart from the languages so far mentioned in this thread, there are male/female differences of some surnames in Scots Gaelic (perhaps also therefore in Irish or Manx too?).

Thus typical "Mac-" names become "Nic-" [= "daughter"], so "Seamus MacRath", but "Catriona NicRath"; while in others, initial consonants are (where appropriate) subject to lenition, thus Caimbeul/Chaimbeul [= "Campbell"], Grannd/Ghrannd [= "Grant"], Friseal/Fhriseal [= "Russell"].

Σ

Edit: sorry Stoggler, I carelessly missed your previous post on this, # 5.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Ben Jamin said:


> The only country in Europe that uses patronymics today is Iceland, and Icelandic  patronymics *are not surnames*. The same was valid with the historical patronymics in Scandinavian countries Denmark, Norway and Sweden. To be a surname a name must be inherited from the former generation.
> In Norway the last patronymics used as official names were in use for a generation living by the turn of the XIX and XX century, but they were only male patronymics (ending with -sen). Female patronymics (-datter) got out of use a generation earlier.



You forget the Eastern Slavic countries: we happen to use both patronymics and surnames.
For all know, Turkic languages also used patronymics before converting to surnames like in Europe. 



Villeggiatura said:


> I learnt this through Donizetti's opera "Maria Stuarda": the surname of Mary Stuart in Italian is _Stuarda_; while (the House of) Stuart in Italian is _Stuart_, according to wikipedia.



"Grazia, grazia alla Stuarda!" - not that her surname is used with an article.
And, likewise, Anna Bolena (don't know how they called her father) and the _Tudori_.
However, you should take into account that in the 19th century the Italians generally italianized foreign names, both first and, whenever possible, last. Keeping the original foreign forms is a rather recent thing.


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## Ben Jamin

Angelo di fuoco said:


> You forget the Eastern Slavic countries: we happen to use both patronymics and surnames.
> For all know, Turkic languages also used patronymics before converting to surnames like in Europe.



No, I did't forget the East Slavic use of patronymics. The topic of this thread is 'surnames', and East Slavic patronymics are not surnames, they are middle names, which, also change with the gender. Bu the way, it would also be correct to mention for other foreros that many Russian and other Slavic surnames originated as patronymics (for example Ivanov and Kuznetsov).


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## franknagy

There is a interesting fact about some female firstnames in Hungarian:
Some of them were were adapten adapted centuries later than the corresponding male first names.
(The male ones from Latin, the female ones from German.)
Male     Female
István  Stefánia
Gábor   Gabriella
Lajos    Lujza
Ferenc  Franciska
Antal    Antónia


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## Scholiast

Greetings


Ben Jamin said:


> Bu the way, it would also be correct to mention for other foreros that many Russian and other Slavic surnames originated as patronymics (for example Ivanov and Kuznetsov)


As in "Benjamin", "Bin Laden", "Robertson", "Larsen" &c. This is a phenomenon not confined to Russian or Slavic nomenclature.



franknagy said:


> There is a interesting fact about some female firstnames in Hungarian:


I was under the impression that this thread is about surnames.
Σ


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## Ben Jamin

Scholiast said:


> As in "Benjamin", "Bin Laden", "Robertson", "Larsen" &c. This is a phenomenon not confined to Russian or Slavic nomenclature.
> 
> Σ


Of course not confined, but Russian names combine both genuine patronymics and surnames originating from patronymics, which is not so common.


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## franknagy

Scholiast said:


> I was under the impression that this thread is about surnames.


Surnames often become family names.

In Hungarian:
X-fi = X's son e.g. Péterfi and *Petőfi Sándor* himself. (Pető is a variant of Péter.)

Often without suffix: József Attila poet (1905-1937)

Female surnames can be family names, too. So *Kati Pista* (Katalin's nickname) and Pista (István=Stephen's nickname) is a boy beecause if Hungarian the family name precedes the given name.

Even *László László* (Leslie Leslie) is a frequent name.
I had classmate in a Russian course. Her name was *László Zsuzsa *(Suzy).


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## Ben Jamin

franknagy said:


> Surnames often become family names.
> 
> In Hungarian:
> X-fi = X's son e.g. Péterfi and *Petőfi Sándor* himself. (Pető is a variant of Péter.)
> 
> Often without suffix: József Attila poet (1905-1937)
> 
> Female surnames can be family names, too. So *Kati Pista* (Katalin's nickname) and Pista (István=Stephen's nickname) is a boy beecause if Hungarian the family name precedes the given name.
> 
> Even *László László* (Leslie Leslie) is a frequent name.
> I had classmate in a Russian course. Her name was *László Zsuzsa *(Suzy).


Surname in English IS family name. You are thinking about "first names" (given names/"christian names").


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## ahvalj

I just wanted to share… Ukrainian has a peculiar type of surnames formed as imperative + noun, and the new head of Ukrainian fleet is some _Неїжпапа_, which means “don't eat [your] daddy”, a surname invariable despite gender.


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## symposium

In Italian we also have family names made with verbs and nouns: a very common Italian surname is "Bevilacqua", lit. "Drink the water"; other such surnames I can think of right now are "Laudadio" (Praise God) and "Viendalmare" (Come from the sea). In Venetia it was costumary to decline one's family name according to gender: Venetian Patrician ladies were therefore referred to as "La Moceniga, Morosina, Querina, Trona, Delfina, Giustiniana, Contarina" and so on (the male versions of those names being "Mocenigo, Morosini, Querin, Tron, Delfin, Giustinian, Contarin etc."). Venetian Patrician families often, I suppose with the intention of emulating the custom of ancient Roman Patrician families, gave their daughters the female version of a Patrician family's name as a first name. The only such name that has become popular and still endures is "Loredana" (and possibly "Marina").


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> I just wanted to share… Ukrainian has a peculiar type of surnames formed as imperative + noun, and the new head of Ukrainian fleet is some _Неїжпапа_, which means “don't eat [your] daddy”, a surname invariable despite gender.


Most Ukrainian surnames don't have gender forms, nothing unusual about that (the only difference is that female surnames aren't declinable).
The curious thing about the kind of surnames you mentioned, though, is that the noun in them is always nominative, despite originally representing a direct object. Obviously it happens to make the male surname fit the declension paradigm, but that's unusual anyway.


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> The curious thing about the kind of surnames you mentioned, though, is that the noun in them is always nominative,


Two examples that my Russian grandfather kept telling me are *Подопригора *(Podoprigora = "prop up the hill") and *Перебийніс *(Perebyjnis = "beat up the nose"). 
Amazing.


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## Welsh_Sion

To add to Stoogler's comments above regarding Welsh.

The female patronymic *ferch * (< *merch*) was also occasionally shortened to *uch* (as in *Margiad uch Ifan * 'Margaret the daughter of John'). There is also a re-Cymrcisation in force whereby 'surnames' are actually sometimes nicknames (e.g. taken from the name of the farm where the person is associated with - *Bethan Gwanas* 'Bethan of Gwadnas Farm' or where The name of the father is 'fused' as a surname without a patronymic - *Elen Siôn* 'Helen (daughter of) John').


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## Dymn

As far as I know, some Catalan surnames used to distinguish masculine and feminine until this practice disappeared and the masculine was set as the standard. This led to some funny hypercorrections, and that's why you have surnames like _Tarragó, Barceló, Giró_, masculines of Tarragona, Barcelona, Girona.


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