# convitato di pietra



## _poppy_

*convitato di pietra*

Inoltre, qualcuno sa spiegare il senso di quest'espressione??!
grazie mile


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## Giannaclaudia

_poppy_ said:
			
		

> Inoltre, qualcuno sa spiegare il senso di quest'espressione??!
> grazie mile


 
Qual è il contesto?


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## _poppy_

'Martini, pur da 2 anni assente, e` il conivitato di pietra in opposizione al cardinale presidente'.


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## Giannaclaudia

_poppy_ said:
			
		

> 'Martini, pur da 2 anni assente, e` il convitato di pietra in opposizione al cardinale presidente'.


 
Tento una spiegazione:
I presenti mettono a confronto le idee, le proposte o quant'altro, del cardinale presidente, con quello che Martini avrebbe detto o fatto.  Martini, pur non essendoci, rimane punto di riferimento per i presenti in opposizione al cardinale presidente.

Scusa, che cosa stai leggendo?


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## _poppy_

Sto leggendo un'articolo sull'Espresso in vista di un'esame orale, su il cardianle Martini ed i suoi commenti sulla fecondita` assistita! E` molto complicato, e durante esame dobbiamo spiegare delle espressioni chiavi, come 'convitato di pietra' per esempio...


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## Giannaclaudia

Bene, ti invio un PM ad ulteriore spiegazione del testo.


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## Angel.Aura

Hi Forer@s,
How would you translate *"convitato di pietra"* into English?
I tried to find a clue here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=147474
but that's not what I needed.
Thanks for your help.


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## TimLA

This is a great phrase, and I wish I knew what it meant.

It's the name of an opera (the stone guest), but it is also an idiomatic phrase that is somehow used to describe a confrontation or argument (I've searched and searched with Google and cannot find the translation).

It seems to mean something to do with "ghosts" and so I wonder if it is "straw man" "figment" "false argument".

Can you give us a full explanation in Italian and maybe we can find the English equivalent?


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## oetzi

Ciao Angel.
L'espressione "convitato di pietra" deriva dal titolo di un'opera: "DON GIOVANNI O SIA IL CONVITATO DI PIETRA", libretto di Giovanni Bertati, musica di Giuseppe Gazzaniga. 

L'espressione fa riferimento a un personaggio che dovrebbe essere presente, ma non lo e' (nel caso dell'opera, era presente solo una sua statua di pietra), ma, nonostante non sia presente, fa sentire la sua presenza, tanto che i presenti e le loro discussioni non possono prescindere da lui. Addirittura, nell'opera la statua trascina, con la sua mano di pietra, il protagonista all'inferno.
L'espressione sta ad indicare una (non) presenza ingombrante.
Per tradurlo, puoi usare tranquillamente l'espressione "stone guest".


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## TimLA

There we are!
Great explanation!
So depending on context one might say:
...the presence of x was felt...
...the spectre of x was in the room...
...the shadow of x....
...the elephant in the room...(not as accurate)

Thanks Oetzi!


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## Angel.Aura

Hi Tim and Oetzi,

Perfect explanation!

"His absence was noticed during the dinner, each one could feel the stone guest watching their every move"

Could this work?
(+ correct me, please)

Ciao

A.A.


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## oetzi

Mi sembra che possa andare - L'ultima parola a Tim! 
Ciao


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## TimLA

Angel.Aura said:


> Hi Tim and Oetzi,
> 
> Perfect explanation!
> 
> "His absence was noticed during the dinner, each one could feel the stone guest watching their every move"
> 
> Could this work?
> (+ correct me, please)
> 
> Ciao
> 
> A.A.


 
I'm not sure I've ever heard of "stone guest" used like that - it may be BE - let's wait for the BE experts.

I might be inclinded to say:

"His absence was noticed during the dinner, each one could feel (his presence) (his spirit) watching their every move"

If you wanted to make it "sinister" then "shadow" "spectre" or "ghost" would work.

Let's wait for other opinions.


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## oetzi

I'm pretty sure about the 'stone guest', since I've read it in the English translation of the opera. It's also a quite commonly used expression (though many of those who use it don't really know its actual meaning ...).
The point I wasn't sure about was 'watching their every move', but thinking it over it seems OK as well.


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## Spire viewer

*[THREADS MERGED BY A MODERATOR - PLEASE SEARCH BEFORE STARTING A NEW THREAD]*

Hi, I'm trying to translate the expression "convitato di pietro" which I came across yesterday. I think it might be a reference to a Pushkin play called "The Stone Guest" but in this extract:  "il convitato di pietra in opposizione al cardinale presidente Camillo Ruini",  I wonder how I should translate it.
Any help would be appreciated.


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## Paulfromitaly

Please write 
- the *full original sentence (written correctly)
- your translation attempt* 
and provide some information about the *context*, thank you 


What does "provide* some context *" mean? 
*How and in which forum to create - edit - post a thread correctly*


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## Spire viewer

The full quotation is:
 "La conferenza episcopale italiana in cui Martini, pur da due anni assente, è il convitato di pietra in opposizione al cardinale presidente Camillo Ruini, ha optato per il silenzio."

I was asked by an Italian friend to check if he had translated it correctly. His attempt was:
"The Italian bishops' conference, CEI, at which Martini, though absent for two years, has been the guest of stone in opposition to cardinal president Camillo Ruini, has opted for silence."

I cannot think of a way of saying convitato di pietro in English.


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## Paulfromitaly

Is it pietr*a* or pietr*o*? 
You keep spelling it differently..


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## Spire viewer

Oh , I'm so sorry. It's PIETRA.


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## anglomania1

I've never heard of "stone guest", so it's probably not BE.
After reading this thread, I see that it is the translation fo "convitato di pietra" and that it is the title of an opera.... but I still don't get what it actually means!!
If a person uses this in English, I doubt the reader would have a clue.
I have to translate it too. My article is all about the use of wood in winemaking, the different approaches and tools available. Now they turn to the consumer and his ideas.. The sentence:
Fin qui la discussione in cantina. Convitato di pietra è il consumatore finale, i cui modelli di acquisto paiono essere difficilmente codificabili.

I really don't have a clue, I don't think stone guest means anything for a native - I don't think many know this opera.
It's a kind of "absent guest".

Thanks for any help,
anglo


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## Mary49

Let me first state that in my opinion the choice of "convitato di pietra" for the final consumer is not the best one. In Italian the expression is used to mean a person or a situation, often not present, that represents a threat or something unpleasant. In the operas it was the ghost hidden in a marble statue. In your context the final consumer could be "silent last guest" (I'm sure this is wrong ); "silent" because he/she is not present during the wine processing, "last" because he/she is the "arrival station" of the process. I hope I have been clear enough.


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## anglomania1

Thanks Mary49, 
that's clear, and yes, I don't like stone guest in my context either.
I think what they mean is that the winemakers and professionals make all the winemaking choices, without the consumer being present, but everything ultimately depends on that absent consumer - because the consumer won't buy the wine if he doesn't like it! 
In fact later in the text they say that consumers profess to prefer non-oaked wines, but then turn their nose up and don't buy them, clearly preferring the oaked wines!
Does that make sense? 
In any case, I'll avoid stone guest and go for one of your suggestions, 
thanks, 
anglo


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## theartichoke

_Ever present is the spectre of the end consumer, whose purchasing habits are difficult to codify. _

Maybe "spectre" makes it a little too threatening; perhaps _prospect_? (For the record, I've never heard of this "stone guest" either.)


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## anglomania1

theartichoke said:


> _Ever present is the spectre of the end consumer, whose purchasing habits are difficult to codify. _
> 
> Maybe "spectre" makes it a little too threatening; perhaps _prospect_? (For the record, I've never heard of this "stone guest" either.)


Actually, I like that! I think the menacing aspect fits or the winemakers lose all their money!!
Very nice, thanks
anglo


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## Paulfromitaly

As Mary and I have pointed out several times already, these people want to use fancy words without knowing what those words exactly mean.
I think you should simply try to understand what they mean to say and then re-write the whole sentence so that it makes sense, at least in English..


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## mcrasnich

anglomania1 said:


> I've never heard of "stone guest", so it's probably not BE.
> After reading this thread, I see that it is the translation fo "convitato di pietra" and that it is the title of an opera.... but I still don't get what it actually means!!
> anglo


I always thought the meaning was the same as "the elephant in the room". Maybe the elephant in the room is a topic, a thing, whereas convitato di pietra could be people or things. But reading your text, both words (convitato/elephant) seem a bit excessive in the context. 
Maybe incognita/unknown variable would have been more logical words to use.


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## lentulax

'Convitato di pietra' would be immediately understandable to most English speakers not because they have even heard of the composer Bertati, let alone his works, but because they are familiar with Mozart's masterpiece 'Don Giovanni'; however, the story is not familiar from any source in English, and English  lovers of 'Don Giovanni' have not been sufficiently numerous to add new idioms to the language, so 'the guest of stone' ('the stone guest' sounds a bit too close to 'the stoned guest') is not a term I've ever met in English.


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## Vicki62

"*Convitato di pietra"*
 Persona o anche situazione minacciosa o spiacevole che si cerca di dimenticare o non affrontare, ma che si ripresenta costantemente. . With reference to Motzart's "Don Giovani".
 English equivale: *Elephant in the room".*

This idiom is used when we are referring to a big issue, an obvious truth, or an obvious problem that everybody is aware of, but no one wants to discuss for various reasons, for example , because it is embarrassing or it may cause arguments. It is based on the thought that an elephant in a room would be difficult to be unnoticed.

eg: The increase in homeless people is the state’s elephant in the room.


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## King Crimson

Vicki62 said:


> "*Convitato di pietra"*
> Persona o anche situazione minacciosa o spiacevole che si cerca di dimenticare o non affrontare, ma che si ripresenta costantemente. . With reference to Motzart's "Don Giovani".
> English equivale: *Elephant in the room".*
> 
> This idiom is used when we are referring to a big issue, an obvious truth, or an obvious problem that everybody is aware of, but no one wants to discuss for various reasons, for example , because it is embarrassing or it may cause arguments. It is based on the thought that an elephant in a room would be difficult to be unnoticed.
> 
> eg: The increase in homeless people is the state’s elephant in the room.



I think "convitato di pietra" can be translated as "elephant in the room" only when referring to a problem, situation etc., not to a person (in fact, note that the definition of "elephant in the room" you provided doesn't mention persons). So, it could work in your example, but not when a person is involved; for example, in post #3 (which is mentioned again in post #17) using "elephant in the room" would sound odd.


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