# Onde



## SharonF

Hi All, 

My Spanish studies are coming along although not to the point that I'd have the nerve to try to post my question in Spanish!  Anyway I work with a couple of guys who are from Guatemala.  Their English is no better (or in the case of one of them only a little better) than may Spanish!  However we have some fun trying to communicate.  They have used a phrase with me that I just don't get and their English is not good enough to just translate.  I hope someone here can help me. 

I'm not sure I have it spelled right but it is something like: "onde estaba" or "onde andaba".  I say, "DONde??" and they say no, "ONde.. onde estaba".  Since they can't say it in English they try to get the point across by talking about asking where so and so might be... but I am just looking at them blankly.  I'm just not getting it.  Of course I try to look up "onde" (which is how they said it is spelled) but I find no entry in my dictionary for "onde".  So, either I'm not hearing it right or "onde" is a conjugated verb form and I'm not picking that up.  

Is this making ANY sense to ANY one??????   HELP!!!

Thanks in advance,

Sharon


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## Walterronnny

onde estaba = dónde está.


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## aurilla

You're right. The word is "donde". They probably don't know any better.


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## CheRie

La palabra es* Donde*


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## grumpus

Hi All,
some times I wonder if "onde" is not archaic,
because in Portuguese  "donde" es "onde"

In a lot of  rural Mexico and Central America you still hear things 
like "mesmo" for "mismo"
or 
"ansina mesmo"  for "asi mismo"

among other things.  Any comments from the historical linguists?

Grumpus


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## aurilla

Onde is very often used by rural villagers with little formal education.


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## lapachis8

"onde" is a syncope, which is surpressing a sound in a word, in this case "donde". Ohter examples would be "amá" instead of "mamá" or "ora" instead of "ahora". 
hope tou find this useful
cheers


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## SharonF

aurilla said:
			
		

> You're right. The word is "donde". They probably don't know any better.



Mmmmmmm  Thing is, I keep going back and saying, do you mean to say DONDE??   And they keep inSISTing  NO that is something different.  They really mean to say "onde"... I even asked for spelling.  Is there ANY way that it could be some form of "ondear"????  

Sooo confused!!  

Sharon


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## grumpus

lapachis8 said:
			
		

> "onde" is a syncope, which is surpressing a sound in a word, in this case "donde". Ohter examples would be "amá" instead of "mamá" or "ora" instead of "ahora".
> hope tou find this useful
> cheers



Hi Lapachis8,
it's possible that you're right,
I just wonder if it's solely a coincidence that "onde" is also an "older form" just
as "mesmo"  for "mismo"

Grumpus


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## Walterronnny

ondear es posible, es un verbo que significa hacer ondas, pero la frase onde estaba  no tiene sentido alguno si se refieren a este verbo.


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## Outsider

Possibly irrelevant note: in Portuguese, _onde_ and _donde_ have different meanings.

_onde_: where
_donde_ = _de_ + _onde_: from where


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## Walterronnny

Pero en Guatemala no se habla portugues .. o si?


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## Outsider

Walterronnny said:
			
		

> Pero en Guatemala no se habla portugues .. o si?


La sugerencia de *Grumpus* es que _onde_ podría ser una forma corriente en español antiguo. Tiene sentido...


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## murena

Hi,

First, I definitively think that with "onde" they try to mean "donde".

And, just to complicate it a bit more, in Mexico is common to hear "¿on ta?" meaning "¿dónde está?

Saludos


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## Orgullomoore

All I have to add is that what is really common around these parts is for people to say "¿ontá?" for "¿Dónde está?", among other things like this. It goes like so:

¿Ontán los discos?=¿Dónde están los discos?
¿Ontabas?=¿Dónde estabas?
¿Ontál café?=¿Dónde está el café?
Yo estaba busqui busqui y busqui, "¿ontás, ontás?", y no lo encontraba, chingao.
      ¿Poj ontaba?
      Sepa la bola, cocho


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## grumpus

Outsider said:
			
		

> Possibly irrelevant note: in Portuguese, _onde_ and _donde_ have different meanings.
> 
> _onde_: where
> _donde_ = _de_ + _onde_: from where




Outsider,

 from your posts you seem to have a solid foundation in languages,
my question is
could "onde" by an "archaic" form in L.A.
such as 
"ansina mesmo"  for "asi mismo"

I am not sure it's just syncope.

Grumpus


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## Soy Yo

"onde" existe en el Poema del Cid y las obras de Berceo...

"Truje" también es una forma (o variación) antigua de traje (de traer)...


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## Outsider

I'm afraid my knowledge of language history is not that solid, *Grumpus*. 
Is the Latin American _onde_ a preserved archaic _onde_, or a modern syncope of _donde_ (_'onde_)? Both seem plausible. You could ask the RAE, if you're really curious about this.


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## Orgullomoore

Outsider said:
			
		

> I'm afraid my knowledge of language history is not that solid, *Grumpus*.
> Is the Latin American _onde_ a preserved archaic _onde_, or a modern syncope of _donde_ (_'onde_)? Both seem plausible. You could ask the RAE, if you're really curious about this.


If you do, make sure you keep us updated, I think it's interesting.


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## SharonF

Outsider said:
			
		

> I'm afraid my knowledge of language history is not that solid, *Grumpus*.
> Is the Latin American _onde_ a preserved archaic _onde_, or a modern syncope of _donde_ (_'onde_)? Both seem plausible. You could ask the RAE, if you're really curious about this.




I looked up "onde" at www.rae.es  and this is what I found:

onde.
(Del lat. unde).
1. adv. l. desus. En donde.
2. adv. l. desus. De donde.
3. conj. causal ant. Por lo cual, por cual razón.

Anyone care to translate for me???  

Thanks!!  

Sharon


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## Outsider

*onde* 

(From Lat. _unde_)
1. locative adv., disused. _where_.
2. locative adv., disused. _where from_
3. old-fashioned causal conjunction. _by which, for which reason_


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## Lagartija

grumpus said:
			
		

> Outsider,
> 
> from your posts you seem to have a solid foundation in languages,
> my question is
> could "onde" by an "archaic" form in L.A.
> such as
> "ansina mesmo"  for "asi mismo"
> 
> I am not sure it's just syncope.
> 
> Grumpus




Kind of like "where be you from... you be from here or from away?"  A very old dialect spoken (not so many years ago!)  in very remote parts of New England.


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## aurilla

Well, it's been established that onde *does* mean donde and whether the students wish to argue to the contrary, you're right.


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## grumpus

aurilla said:
			
		

> Onde is very often used by rural villagers with little formal education.




Hi Soyyo/Lagartija/Aurilla  and others

when I hear "rural and uneducated" speech in L.A.
I run to grab my copy of Don Quijote (jajaja)

Grumpus


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## Lagartija

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Soyyo/Lagartija/Aurilla  and others
> 
> when I hear "rural and uneducated" speech in L.A.
> I run to grab my copy of Don Quijote (jajaja)
> 
> Grumpus



My comment about the dialect from remote parts was not meant to imply that it was "uneducated".  On the contrary, the speech pattern remained unchanged from that used in colonial times because the people were in so remote a region.  
I was thinking of speech patterns heard as recently as the 1950's on some of the remote islands of "Downeast Maine".  It is postulated that their speech patterns remained unchanged for so long, (until they finally got electricity and phones) that their speech was closer to the English used by the first settlers to the area.  That quote I used as an example was from an elderly woman in the Herring Gut area (now known as Port Clyde) around 1920 or so.


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## SharonF

aurilla said:
			
		

> Well, it's been established that onde *does* mean donde and whether the students wish to argue to the contrary, you're right.



Well this has been very interesting!!  So, if "onde" is recognized as an old form of "donde" then I should interpret "onde estaba"/"onde andaba" as... where you been?  where you going?  Something like that??  Or.... something else???

Thanks! 

Sharon


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## grumpus

aurilla said:
			
		

> Okay, okay, they're aren't necessarily uneducated, just incomunicado!




Hi Aurilla and Lagartija,
that's how I meant it,
for me "uneducated" is not necessarily a "bad" thing.

Rural isolated areas, particularly in colonies tend to be
linguistically conservative.  This was your point, Lagartija.

Grumpus


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## Soy Yo

Also...you still hear "holp" as a past of help in certain disappearing Southern dialects (USA).


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## Fernando

In Extremadura (W Spain) and (maybe) Andalusia, "onde" is both old-fashioned and uneducated form of "donde" or "adonde"


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## Alundra

It's curious... In my city is more common to hear "ande" instead "onde"... and it is uneducated too...:

Ande vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassss....   Sancho....  

I imagine Don Quixote...

Alundra.


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## Rodrigue

Hi, friends;
My name is Can
I am new to this forum, I saw you were speaking about "onde" and I wanted to join.
My grandparents speak 15th century Spanish (Judeo-Español / Sefaradí). When I would come very late to their house, they would say:
"¿ánde estabas?" for asking "where were you?.
I learned old-Spanish from them but in the same time I learned modern Spanish by myself.
Actually in Latin; "unde" means "from where" ("de dónde"). It came to be "onde" in Iberic languages, like Spanish and Portugese. (In French où.) And the meaning got simplified meaning "where" (dónde y donde).
It seems complicated but actually what happens is that the word changes a bit and the meaning goes simplified a bit too



> The times of the Roman Empire:
> Latin is spoken in Europe.
> 
> *UNDE:*
> From where
> De dónde


 




> Very old Spanish:
> Beginnings of the Spanish Language
> 
> *ONDE:*
> Where
> Donde
> (as a result 2 other words develop):
> *DE + ONDE = DONDE:*
> From where
> De donde
> *A + ONDE*
> *= ANDE:*
> To where
> Adonde







> Old Spanish:
> Again the meaning changes a little in some regions.
> 1. Some dialects preserve the “*onde*” as it is.
> 2. Some dialects prefer “*ande*” changing the meaning to “where”. So they say “*ande*” meaning “donde” and “adonde” and “*de ande*” for “de donde”
> 3. Some dialects choose “*donde*” and change the meaning to “where”.


 



> Modern Spanish:
> The dialects which use the word “donde” become the dominant dialect. As the royal people also use it, it dominates. So comes the modern usage of *donde*, of *adonde* and of *de donde* in Modern Spanish.


 
The Jews who live in Turkey originated from the regions where they used to say "ande" for "donde". So still in the 21th century, you can hear Jews saying, ¿ánde estás? for ¿dónde estás?.
And the Jews who live in Greece (and may be in Bulgaria) came from the regions where was used the word "onde". And in Greece it's said ¿ónde estás?
I think the Portugese also follow the same dialect with onde.
Now it is certain that "onde" or "ande" is not a syncope.
Meanwhile, here (in Istanbul) we use also the word *ansina* but we say *mismo* and in some other cities of Turkey they say *mesmo*.
I hope I could be useful. Sorry for my English for that I never studied English in a school so I may be making mistakes...
Sincerely, Can Rodrigo


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## Qñerty

Rodrigue said:


> Hi, friends;
> My name is Can
> I am new to this forum, I saw you were speaking about "onde" and I wanted to join.



Hi Can, welcome to the forum (I am very new here, but I arrived before you, so it's OK if I welcome you).

Actually, we weren't speaking about "onde" right now, but almost a year ago (15th February 2006). So don't be discouraged if nobody answers your interesting post.

Regards.


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## Rodrigue

Hola, Qñerty
Muchas gracias para haberme dicho esto como no había visto la fija. Como el mensaje era el último, pensé a responderlo
Me gustaría si me corrigeras cuando hago yerros. Así mi Español se amejorará
Tengo una pregunta. ¿Se usa la palabra "vos" en Chile?
Gracias
Can


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## Totopi

Hola Rodrique:
Me permito corregirte un poco:


Rodrigue said:


> Hola, Qñerty
> Muchas gracias para haberme dicho esto, no había visto la fecha (??). Como el mensaje era el último, pensé responderlo
> Me gustaría que me corrigiese cuando hago errores/fallos. Así mi Español mejorará
> Tengo una pregunta. ¿Se usa la palabra "vos" en Chile?
> Gracias
> Can


 
Espero servirte de ayuda.
En cuanto al uso del "vos" en Chile, es mejor que te responda un chileno, pero creo que apenas se usa. Sin embargo sí se usa en Argentina, Uruguay y en algunas regiones de otros países. En esto no estoy muy segura así que espera mejor otras respuestas. Me temo que nos van a borrar los posts porque estamos totalmente fuera del tema.
Saludos,


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## Qñerty

Rodrigue said:


> ¿Se usa la palabra "vos" en Chile?



Se usa, pero más se usan las conjugaciones. Por ejemplo, "para donde vai vos" o "para donde vai tú". Puedes verlo en el Diccionario panhispánico de dudas http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=voseo

Saludos, y nos vemos en otro tema.


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## el bajavoz

Acerca de "onde", yo hablo frecuentemente con gente de México - de todas partes de ese país. A veces hablo rápido o no utilizo el lenguaje propio de México, y me responden, "¿Onde?"
No es "a'onde" ni tiene relación con la ubicación (dónde) de nada. Simplemente se dice cuando no siguen la conversación, y se requiere otra explicación en otras palabras. Es igual a la respuesta, "¿qué?" y es aún más parecida a la respuesta, "¿cómo?"  ¿Sabrá alguien de dónde sacaron este uso de "onde"?


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## lapachis8

Hi:
I´ve never come across the example you mention. It is quite unlikely that "¿onde?" be used as a kind of question when something is misheard, or not heard at all.
It is definitely used when the listener is asking about a location or a place.
Even those with little instruction would not use it the way you describe.
Cheers


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## el bajavoz

Highly unlikely, yes. For that reason I am searching an explanation. If it had occurred once or twice from one person, I would assume a misunderstanding on my part. However one woman often repeats it, and other people say the same utterance in similar situations. These individuals have humble backgrounds; I do not know if rural or urban...but this "word" I have heard repeatedly. It could be "ande" with more of a closed "a" sound. It most sounds like the short "u" in English. I know what it means implicitly. I just have no idea about its origin.


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## Plangam

Tendría que llevar acento en los mismos casos en los que _donde_ lo llevaría, ¿no?

_¿Ónde podrá estar?
No sé ónde lo dejé.

_No así en los demás casos:_
Fue allí onde lo dejé.
Por onde termina el río, se encuentra la mar.
_


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