# Bosnian (BCS): cooked meat product



## Riveritos

Hello, 
I have two possible translations of _cooked meat product_ in Bosnian and would like to know which one is correct:
Proizvod kuhan na bazi mesa
Kuhani proizvod od mesa

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## yael*

_Kuhani proizvod od mesa _or _Kuhani mesni proizvod_.

Cheers


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## Riveritos

Thanks a lot!


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## Krvavica

Proizvod od kuhanog mesa.


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## Duya

I'd second Krvavica's translation, as it means "Product [of cooked meat]", as opposed to "Cooked [product of meat]". 

(Ironically, _Krvavica_ means "blood sausage" )


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## Krvavica

I adore blood sausages (krvavice), so it was logical choice for my nickname 
It is also "proizvod od kuhanog mesa" 

In Croatian the sentence should start with the subject. My translation is in the spirit of the language.


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## Duya

Krvavica said:


> In Croatian the sentence should start with the subject. My translation is in the spirit of the language.



Well, in this case it doesn't have much to do with subjects and sentences (we don't even have a sentence here), but with phenomenon known as "ambiguous modifier", also present in Croatian (and many languages), whereby presence of multiple possessives makes unclear the order in which they should apply. See e.g. here.

I mean, the original English phrase 

_cooked meat product_

is ambiguous. Is it [cooked [meat product]] or [[cooked meat] product]? Does "cooked" modify "product" or "meat"? The difference is rather subtle in this case, but consider e.g. "wild deer hunter" -- who is wild here?

Semantically, we can tell that intended meaning is more likely "product of cooked meat", hence your translation is better.


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## Krvavica

We are talking about product (which is subject) in the phrase/sentence given in the first post. It is obviously made out of cooked meat. Therefore my translation.  

Just like with the "raw silk handbag" - Torbica od sirove svile. 

In English you can have it like this - cooked meat product, but in Croatian other suggestions are not ok. You can use them, but it is clear that you are not native speaker. 

Obviously, I'm not linguist but ordinary Croat who likes to eat cooked meat


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## Duya

Krvavica said:


> Obviously, I'm not linguist but ordinary Croat who likes to eat cooked meat



OK, I'll immediately forgive you loose terminology (it is not a _subject_, but a _head noun_), but your logic does not work in all cases.

How would you translate _red cow meat__? _Using your logic (subject first), it would go like

_Meso crvene krave_.

which is wrong, fairly obviously. You want one of

_Crveno kravlje meso.
Crveno meso [od]_ _krave_.

The difference from "cooked meat product" is that, here, _red_modifies _meat_, not _cow_. So you cannot put the noun (_meso_) first, the adjective (_crveno_) must precede it.

All these phrases (_cooked meat product, raw silk handbag, red cow meat_) are ambiguous, when we look at their grammar alone (remember the "time flies like an arrow"? ). We must use our knowledge about the world to resolve the ambiguity, and even then we may fail (as in _wild deer hunter_). When we know the meaning, we can then recast them to become unambiguous, but we can do it in both Croatian *and* English (using an of-genitive rather than adjective). 

(And we cannot make them ambiguous in Croatian indeed, but there are other construction where we can_ -- Kamion udario auto_springs to my mind immediately, but there are better examples).


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## yael*

Interesting. In Serbian the subject is not necessarily privileged, it has no canonically reserved position. Hence, we would say _kuvani mesni proizvodi _and _dimljeni mesni proizvodi_. Of course, you can also say _proizvodi od kuvanog mesa_, but the latter is not so common.


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## Duya

I beg to differ. _Proizvod od kuvanog mesa_ sounds much better to me than _kuvani mesni proizvod_.To see why, try with _poultry meat product. _It is certainly not *_živinski mesni proizvod_,but _proizvod od živinskog mesa. _A _beef meat sausage_ is not a _*goveđa mesna kobasica_but a _kobasica od goveđeg mesa._ 

It does not have anything to do with Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian, but with grammar and logic. BCS cannot adjectivize entire noun phrases, like English. In this case, _kuvani mesni proizvod _does work, and it is not even bad. It just stresses that the _product_ is _cooked, _not that it's made of _cooked meat,_ and I don't think that the former is the intended meaning. Maybe it is, but for me it's more logical the other way round.

On the other hand_, dimljeni mesni proizvod _works much better than _proizvod od dimljenog mesa. _Why? Because we first make the meat product, and *then* cure it. _Proizvod od dimljenog mesa_ would imply that we cure the meat first, and then process it further. 

I admit that differences are subtle or even non-existing in some cases.


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## Riveritos

Wow, your discussion is so interesting, I'm learning a lot here!
Anyway, in my case, cooked is referred to the product, it's a _cooked product of meat_. So I wonder I'll have to use _Kuhani proizvod od mesa_.
Thanks again.


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## yael*

Riveritos said:


> Wow, your discussion is so interesting, I'm learning a lot here!
> Anyway, in my case, cooked is referred to the product, it's a _cooked product of meat_. So I wonder I'll have to use _Kuhani proizvod od mesa_.
> Thanks again.


We managed to confuse your ideas. 
All the proposed solutions are correct and can use any of them - people will understand. I have tried to google (on the Italian google) each combination and it my impression is that kuhani mesni proizvodi is the most common... actually, the most common is bareni mesni proizvodi, but I am not familiar with the processing of the meat, so I am not sure if _bareni _and _kuhani _are interchangable.
Anyhow, Duya's explanation is very  thourough and it will surely help you find the combination that gives the best presentation of your product and of the recipe.


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## Duya

Poor Riveritos... the question seemed so innocent. 

Mea culpa, I suppose.


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## Krvavica

@Riveritos
It would help if you could tell us what exactly are we talking about here? What kind of a product? 

The word "cooked" in your product means that it is already cooked? Or just made out of cooked meat and can be eaten with or withouth cooking?

The phrase "proizvod od kuhanog mesa" just says what it's made of, not if this needs additional cooking to be consumed.

Like "krvavica" ("blood sausage"), which is "proizvod od kuhanog mesa" but need additional cooking before you can safely eat it.  However, using this translation for krvavica is not incorrect and won't be a mistake.


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