# to hold / keep / save



## ThomasK

These three verbs might refer to some underlying concept. How do you translate them? What are some derivations based on them?

Dutch: 
- hold: *houden *(in je hand), hold in your hand
- keep : *houden*, behouden [*houding*, attitude ]> *bewaren *(save, preserve, FRE _garder_)
- save: *redden *[a person from drowning, something in danger] (computer: *opslaan*)


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> Dutch:
> - hold: *houden *(in je hand), hold in your hand
> - keep : *houden*, behouden [*houding*, attitude ]> _bewaren _(save)


These are tricky words to translate into Portuguese. We have a range of words that can translate each of those, but the right one depends on the context. There is no general one-to-one correspondence with the English words. Some possibilities:

to hold (in one's hand): *segurar, apertar, guardar, ter*
to keep: *guardar, manter, ter, salvar
*
As for "to save" a computer file, there are a few possible interchangeable choices, with some variation between Portugal and Brazil: *guardar*, *salvar*, and *gravar* are the most common, as discussed in this thread.


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## ThomasK

That is what I was afraid of. I have already changed my question a little, making it a little more precise. There is also a link with* 'to protect' *of course: _to *guard*_, _bewaken _in Dutch, also beschermen, whereas that sounds quite different from houden (mainly keeping in Dutch). 

Do you by the way see quite different meanings in various derivations based on one verb? With us *houding*, attitude, is not so clearly linked with _houden_, except perhaps via *zich houden*, _se tenir_ (to hold oneself ???)


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

*To hold:* «Κρατάω/κρατώ» [kra'ta.o] (uncontracted) / [kra'to] (contracted) < ancient v. «κρατέω/κρατῶ» kra'tĕō (uncontracted) / kra'tō (contracted) --> anc. meaning, _to rule, get possession of, control_ (> Demo-*cracy*), in MG, _to hold, keep in the hand_; PIE base *kar-/*ker-, _hard_ (cf. Skt. क्रतु (kratu), _might_; Gr. «κράτος» 'kratŏs, _strength, might_ (in MG also, _the sovereign political entity = state_), adj. «κρατύς» kra'tŭs (found only in masc. form), _strong, mighty_; Proto-Germanic *hardu- > Ger. hart, Eng./Dutch hard) 
*To keep (save, preserve):* 
1/ «Διατηρώ» [ði.ati'ro] < ancient v. «διατηρέω/διατηρῶ» dĭatē'rĕō (uncontracted) / dĭatē'rō (contracted) --> ancient meaning, _to watch closely, observe_, in MG, _to maintain, preserve, keep_; compound, prefix and preposition «διὰ» di'ằ --> _through, throughout_ (PIE *duwo-, _two_) + v. «τηρέω/τηρῶ» tē'rĕō (uncontracted) / tē'rō (contracted) --> _to watch over, guard, retain_; the ancient meaning of «τηρῶ» --> _to watch over_, has survived in some rural regilolects (e.g. in the dialect of the Sarakatsani people): «τηράω» [ti'rao] --> _to watch over (the herd, crop etc)_ with obscure etymology.
2/ «Φυλάσσω» [fi'laso] (coll. «φυλάγω» [fi'laɣo] & «φυλάω» [fi'la.o]) < ancient v. «φυλάσσω» pʰŭ'lassō & «φυλάττω» pʰŭ'lattō --> _to watch, guard, defend, preserve, maintain, cherish_ (with obscure etymology).
3/ «Διαφυλάσω» [ði.afi'laso] < ancient v. «διαφυλάσσω» dĭapʰŭ'lassō & «διαφυλάττω» dĭapʰŭ'lattō --> _to observe closely, watch closely_ (AG), _to preserve, safeguard_ (MG).
*To save:* 
1/ «Σώζω» ['sozo] < ancient  «σῴζω» 'sōzō & «σώιζω» 'sōizō --> _to save, keep safe_, with obscure etymology (some philologists suggest from PIE *tēw-, _to swell_*** (cf. Skt. तवीति (taviiti), _to be strong_; OCS тѹръ (turŭ), _aurochs_).
2/ «Διασώζω» [ði.a'sozo] < ancient «διασῴζω» dĭa'sōzō --> _to preserve through danger, preserve, maintain_.  

***the evolution of the meaning is probably:
To be swollen = to be well-fed/fat > to be strong/safe (for persons and animals)


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## Määränpää

Finnish

*to hold:*
_pitää_


like the French _tenir (à)_, it can also mean "to like someone"
it can also mean "to regard something as X" 
 * to keep:*
_säilyttää_


_säilyä_ _= "_to be preserved", _säilyke_ = "canned food", _säiliö_ = "tank" 
 * to save:*
_pelastaa_ (to rescue)

_pelastuslaitos_ = "rescue department" 
 _säästää_ (to spare)


_säästöpossu_ = "piggy bank" 
 _tallentaa_ (computer)

_talteen_ (adverb) = "into a state/place of preservation", _tallella/tallessa_ (adverb) = "in a state/place of preservation"


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for these interesting contributions!

@Apmoy: /*krato*/ as a basic metaphor for ruling... Interesting! -- /*tirao*/ : do I recognize 'tyrant' in that word ? -- /*sotèr*/ is quite well-known in Christian doctrine, I believe, Saviour... 

@Määränpää: 
- holding: well, we also have *'houden van' *(hold of ???) as the translation of loving nowadays ! --- and *'houden voor' *(hold for...) can also mean consider !!!
- keep...: interesting derivations - we also have _conserve[blik] _(preservation tin, literally) in Belgian Dutch
- to save: we also have *sparen *(*spaarvarken*, piggy bank) 
- *tallentaa*: how you use it when referrring to 'to save' then? (How do you translate: 'I have saved it'? Do you say something like : 'I have put it tallentaa/ tallella' or something the like? Can you use it in non-digital contexts as well ?


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## Määränpää

> *tallentaa*:  how you use it when referrring to 'to save' then? (How do you  translate: 'I have saved it'? Do you say something like : 'I have put it  tallentaa/ tallella' or something the like? Can you use it in  non-digital contexts as well ?



The verb _tallentaa_ is exclusively digital. A similar verb, _tallettaa_, means "to deposit". Because they are so technical, I think they might be neologisms formed from the adverbs.

For concrete small objects, I would use the adverbs: _laittaa talteen _("to put _talteen_", dynamic) or_ pitää tallessa_ ("to keep _tallessa_", static). The adverb behaves like a noun, but it has only three cases and doesn't even have the nominative case. Some of our adverbs are like this.

P.S. I forgot to add that _pitää_ ("to hold") often means "to keep", and _säilyttää_ is more like "to preserve".


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## ahmedcowon

*In Arabic:*

to hold: أمسك /_amsak_/

to keep: احتفظ /_eħtafaẓ_/  -  To keep (_going_): واصل /_waa__ṣal_/

to save: حفظ /_ħafaẓ_/

to preserve: حافظ /_ħaafaẓ_/


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## Encolpius

*magyar*

hold = tart
keep = megtart (meg- works like Dutch be-).i.e. perfect verb
preserve = tartósít, tank > tartály
save = ment, megment, both imperfect and perfect verb possible


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## ThomasK

@AhmedK : could you give me some sentences where the verbs are used with objects? 

@Encolpius: So you can express a lot of those meanings with one root, _tart_-? Do you have lots of derivations then?



Määränpää said:


> I forgot to add that _pitää_ ("to hold") often means "to keep", and _säilyttää_ is more like "to preserve".


Could you illustrate that  with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?


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## Määränpää

ThomasK said:


> I forgot to add that _pitää_ ("to hold") often means "to keep", and _säilyttää_ is more like "to preserve".
> 
> 
> 
> Could you illustrate that  with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?
Click to expand...


1.) Nämä ihmiset *pitävät* lupauksensa. ("These people keep their promises.")
2.) *Pidän *vaimoni kuvaa työpöydälläni. ("I keep a picture of my wife on my desk.")
3.)* Säilytän* vanhoja tavaroitani ullakolla. ("I keep my old things in the attic.")
4.) Haluan, että tämä puisto *säilytetään*. ("I want this park to be preserved.")


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## ThomasK

Great, that would be 'houden' (although...), 'bewaren' and 'bewaren' in Dutch.


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## Encolpius

ThomasK said:


> @Encolpius: So you can express a lot of those meanings with one root, _tart_-? Do you have lots of derivations then?
> Could you illustrate that  with some sentences where the verbs have (direct) objects?



some more: tartalék [reserve, spare], tartalom [content], tartomány [province], tartozik [to owe], tartóztat [to detain]...


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## ThomasK

That seems impressive. ...I could imagine a link with *Dutch 'houden' *(German 'halten') as in 'inhoud' (content), 'voorbehoud' (reserve, fig.), 'vasthouden' (detain), which has a very* broad meaning* as well, I now come think, as in 'houden van' (to love: hold-of), 'houden voor' (to take x as), '[zich] verhouden tot' (to relate to...), 'houding' (attitude), etc.


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## Encolpius

I think Hungarian has been influenced by Germanic, German.


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## ThomasK

But then even as far as derivations are concerned, you mean?


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## Encolpius

Yes, I think even that influenced Hungarian.
But Czech: držet [to hold] > nádrž [cotainer], zadržet [to arrest], so maybe it's a coincidence, South Slavic država [province, country]...


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## aruniyan

*Hold, keep, save...*


_*pidi*_(hold), _kai pidi_ (hand hold),  _kai il pidi_(hand in hold / hold in your hand)

*vai (*keep*)* _Kai il vaith-iru_ (hand in keep/ Keep it in your hand)

_*Kaapaatru*_ (_Kaappu_- To protect + _aatru_-  do/act) God save us -_ Iraivaa  emmai kaapaatru_


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## ThomasK

How about saving, keeping, storing, Aruniyan?


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> That is what I was afraid of. I have already  changed my question a little, making it a little more  precise.


After giving it some more thought, I've narrowed down the typical translations:

to hold (in one's hand): *segurar*
to keep (an attitude): *manter*, though we'd be more likely to use a copula to speak of attitudes: to be, to become, to stay...
to have: *ter* (this one can often cover both meanings above)
to save, to preserve, to guard, to maintain: *manter* (+*salvar*, *preservar*, *guardar*). *Manter* comes from *mão* (hand) + *ter* ("to hold" in Old Portuguese and Latin). It's a cognate of French *maintenir*.
to save (a computer file): *guardar*, *gravar* (these mostly in Portugal), *salvar *(mostly in Brazil)
to safeguard: *salvaguardar*
to spare: *poupar *(+*guardar, salvar*)
to store: *armazenar*
to squeeze: *apertar
*to arrest, to detain:* prender*, *deter*
to protect: *proteger* (+*guardar*)
to hold (something) tight, to hold down: *segurar* (+*apertar, prender*)
to tie (something) down: *amarrar* (+*prender*)



ThomasK said:


> Do you by the way see quite different meanings in various derivations based on one verb? With us *houding*, attitude, is not so clearly linked with _houden_, except perhaps via *zich houden*, _se tenir_ (to hold oneself ???)


Well, there's *seguro*, insurance, and *segurança*, security or safety. I can't think of any other nontrivial derivations right now.


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## aruniyan

ThomasK said:


> How about saving, keeping, storing, Aruniyan?



_Saer_(to join with) also used for _"to store_", _panathai saer_(save the money)
_Vai_ -(Keep) _Enn-idam vaithu-kolvaen_( I will keep with me)


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## ThomasK

That is a huge number of verbs. I recognize _ter, manter (prender), -guardar, salvar, preservar, _but not _poupar _or _apertar _(does not have to do with opening, I suppose). The use of segurar is something I had not thought of but putting in security is a form of protection of course, but the Dutch equivalent verzekeren is not used in that way in Dutch (more like_ assure, insure_, not physical) 

Don't you have lots of words based on the _ter _root, like _de-tent-ion, abs-tent-ion, in-tent-ion (_I think they are all based on Lat. _tenere_)?


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> That is a huge number of verbs.


I kept thinking of different senses of "to hold" and such... 



ThomasK said:


> _... _but not _poupar _or _apertar _(does not have to do with opening, I suppose).


*Apertar* is a cognate (and synonym) of Spanish *apretar*, which according to the DRAE comes from _lat. tardío *appectorāre*, der. de *pectus* 'pecho'_ (chest).



ThomasK said:


> The use of segurar is something I had not thought of but putting in security is a form of protection of course, but the Dutch equivalent verzekeren is not used in that way in Dutch (more like_ assure, insure_, not physical)


There is also *assegurar*, to insure, to reassure.



ThomasK said:


> Don't you have lots of words based on the _ter _root, like _de-tent-ion, abs-tent-ion, in-tent-ion (_I think they are all based on Lat. _tenere_)?


Right. Here are two related to the topic of your thread: *detentor*, owner, holder, possessor; *detido*, detainee. But these are clearly related to *deter*, to hold/possess, to detain. I thought you were asking for less obvious derivations.


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## ThomasK

As for the latter: well, any word containing a non-obvious reference to keeping, holding, saving, is welcome as well, you know. ;-)


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## ger4

In German:

to hold:
- _halten_ - same etymology as 'to hold', obviously
- _in der Hand halten_ - to hold in one's hand 

to keep:
- _behalten_ - prefix _be_- + _halten_
- _aufrecht erhalten_ - _aufrecht_ ('upright') + prefix _er-_ + _halten
_...

to save:
- _retten_ - to save someone from dying, for instance
- _Geld sparen _- to save money (_Geld_ = 'money')
- _speichern (Computer)_ - _speichern_ means 'to store'


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## 810senior

Japanese:

to hold: tsukamu(to take hold of), motsu(to have)
to keep : tamotsu(to maintain)
to save : tameru(to accumluate), tasukeru(to rescue), sukuu(to rescue, to pick up)


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Thanks a lot for these interesting contributions!
> 
> @Apmoy: /*krato*/ as a basic metaphor for ruling... Interesting! -- /*tirao*/ : do I recognize 'tyrant' in that word ?


They sound similar, but they're not cognates I'm afraid. Don't let the MoGr pronunciation of both /η/ («τηράω» [tiˈɾa.o]) & /υ/ («τύραννος» [ˈtiɾanos]) as [ i ] fool you, the two words are not related; *«τύραννος»* (tyrant) is probably an early Greek borrowing from an Anatolian IE language (possibly from the Hittite tarwana, from PIE *dʰer-/*dʰeregʰ-, _to hold, hold firm_ cognate of Lat. turris, OEng. torr, Gr. τύρσος; all three describe the tower btw). «Τηράω» is not. 


ThomasK said:


> /*sotèr*/ is quite well-known in Christian doctrine, I believe, Saviour...


Indeed, «Σωτήρ» Sōtḗr is the Saviour (Lat. Salvātor) but the name predates Christianity by a few centuries, it was the epithet applied to Zeus-protector, «Ζεύς Σωτήρ», "Jupiter Salvātor"


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