# Antwerps



## Frank06

*Split off from **this thread**.*
*Mainly inspired by Grytolle (tack tack, gast)!*
*Frank, moderator*

Hi,

When WR decided to open a Dutch Forum, I tried to convince the WR people to open a main forum called "General Antwerpian" (Algemien Beschaofd of Schoon Antwàrps) including a few sub-fora (such as "Dutch" and "Ollands"). But luckily for most (if not all) of us, common sense prevailed over the proverbial Antwerp self-centered arrogance and Antwerp (language) chauvinism. However, it's not that uncommon to hear things as 'there is the Antwerp dialect and all the rest' (including all standard and non-standard variants spoken in the Low Lands which, taken all together, can be called 'Dutch'). And it's becoming more and more difficult to be sure whether or not this is meant in a humorous way...

Nevertheless, I have the impression that the Antwerp/Brabant factor in non-standard spoken Dutch in Flanders is getting more and more influential in Flanders. And looking at a few recent threads in DF, I have the strong impression that quite some people choose to call this heavily Antwerp/Brabant influenced substandard speech 'Flemish'. When I hear people from the Netherlands imitating the speech they perceive as 'Flemish', it's in 99.9% the cases a kind of Antwerp dialect.

One of the problems when writing about dialects is, well, writing. There are various 'academic' attempts (for example _Hoe schrijf ik mijn dialect? Een referentiespelling voor alle Brabantse dialecten; Stadsantwerps; Vlaams-Brabants_), ranging from proposals based upon phonological principles rather than phonetics and attempts by what I'd like to call amateur attempts (amateur in the overal positive sense of enthousiastic lover), which seem all to rely more heavily on phonetics. The netto result is that almost every author uses his or her ideosyncratic way of spelling .

Oh ja, Brabant(ian) is the larger dialect group, which stretches itself (by and large) from Gooik to Tienen in Flemish-Brabant, until Etten-Leure and Cuijk in (Dutch) Noord-Brabant (give and take a few kilometers and depending upon which isoglosses one wants to take into account). Antwerp(ian) mainly refers to the city dialect as spoken in Antwerp. Many people distinguish dialects with in the city dialect, other people claim that the 'real' Antwerp dialect is almost extinguished, if not dead, or even worse, not the 'pure' dialect anymore, as if it ever _was_ 'pure'...

Anyway...



Grytolle said:


> I also feel good about managing to stop myself from writing "een schoon stad"!


Which would probably be the most normal way of putting it in the dialect of this region (Antwerp, and probably beyond):
_Antwarpen is echt waor een schoon stad. _. *[edit]*correction added, see following post*[/edit]*
(and not only because over here we say 'het stad' in stead of 'de stad').


Groetjes,

Frank


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## Grytolle

First of all, the safest way is to say "proper" for clean, and "mooi" for beautiful 

I learn several variants of Dutch, and I don't feel I need to choose. I work with
1) Standard Dutch, with as much Flemish variants as accepted in formal contexts (pretty much none ).
2) Verkavelingsvlaams, which I prefer to call Flemish.
3) Dialects on a smaller scale. I can write Antwerps well, eventhough I can't speak it. No practice . My most recent thing, is to learn some Gents as used in Biezebaaze's songs, for which I've tried to develop an easy-to-read ortography (I'm very dependant on "seeing" words when I learn a language). I've also started working on the West-Flemish used in Flip Kowlier's songs - which has proven to be a harder nut to crack, but I'm well on my way  I understand everything, but all the features aren't chrystal clear to me.



> Which would probably be the most normal way of putting it in the dialect of this region (Antwerp, and probably beyond):
> _Antwarpe is echt waor een schoon stad. _.
> (and not only because over here we say 'het stad' in stead of 'de stad').


If you're interested in writing your dialect, I can really recommend visiting "antwerps"."be". I'm quite sure the sentence would end up like:



> Aentwaerpen is echt waar een schoên stad.


 First, a question: Are you sure you wouldn't pronounce the "n" in Antwerpen before a vowel?

Secondly, for the interested reader: 
There is a big groups of adjectives in Antwerps, and other dialects, and to a minor extent also in Flemish (definition above), which are bent this way:
masculine: -e(n)
feminine: -0
neuter: -0

The word "schoon" falls under the rule "adjective ending in long vowel/diphton + n/l/r"
een schoon huis
een schoon stad
ne schone man

een geel mondeke
een geel koe
ne gele mond



"Het stad", should anyone not know already, probably came to be this way:
de stad => d'stad => 'tstad => het stad



EDIT:
Which forms would you use in comparative and superlative? Possible forms I can think of:
schùnder/schùnste (ù is a short oe)
schunder / schunste
schoêner / schoênste
schoênder / schoênste (I can't remember if -nd- ever happens here after a long vowel. I just list the possibility because of Gents "schuunder".)

(oê sounds pretty much like oe+sjwa - could uglier be spelled oeë - which always corresponds with a standard Dutch oo (not all standard dutch oo are oê))


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## Joannes

Grytolle said:


> EDIT:
> Which forms would you use in comparative and superlative? Possible forms I can think of:
> schùnder/schùnste (ù is a short oe)
> schunder / schunste
> schoêner / schoênste
> schoênder / schoênste (I can't remember if -nd- ever happens here after a long vowel. I just list the possibility because of Gents "schuunder".)
> 
> (oê sounds pretty much like oe+sjwa - could uglier be spelled oeë - which always corresponds with a standard Dutch oo (not all standard dutch oo are oê))


Amai, kzien dees nu pas - plezant.  -- Ge zoudt *schunder/schunste* of *shoêner/schoênste* zeggen. Dieje laatste zegde nie en den eerste hemmik ook nog nooit goord. (*Schoêner/schoênste* is volgens mij degene die dat echt tot het stadsdialect behoort, en *schunder/schunste* is denk ik nen ingevoerden - maar kzen nie zeker, kzen maar ne Verkavelingsvlaming. )


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## Grytolle

Bedankt om te antwoorden^^  Schoêner en schunder zijn inderdaad ook d'enige vormen waarover dat ik had gelezen - d'ander waren beredeneerde varianten  

Voelt "hemmik" u trouwens aan als één woord?


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## Joannes

Nee, maar as ge dan [ɛmə'kik] zegt, dan vinnek dat der zo onnozel uitzien as <hem ik ik>.. 

(Nu g'et zegt, 'k hem ook eerst <denkik> aaneen geschreven... Tja, tis wachten op die geschreven standaard e )


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## Grytolle

Dat schrijf ik gewoon als "hem ekik" ("ik" heeft door dubblering ne nevenvorm gekregen), en logischerwijze ook "da'kik"

vinnek => vin ek/vin' ek (afhankelijk van of den infinitief me' een d is), of vinne 'k (als "ik vinne" gewoon is)

Ook al is er geen vastgelegde regels, kan men (wanneer men der tijd voor/zin in heeft) zo logisch mogelijk proberen spellen



Anderzijds ben ik een beetjen inconsequent wanneer ik -de/-te als suffixen beschouw, of wa' vindde (gij)? 8)


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## Joannes

Grytolle said:


> Dat schrijf ik gewoon als "hem ekik" ("ik" heeft door dubblering ne nevenvorm gekregen), en logischerwijze ook "da'kik"
> 
> vinnek => vin ek/vin' ek (afhankelijk van of dat den infinitief me' een d is), of vinne 'k (als "ik vinne" gewoon is)
> 
> Ook al is zijn der geen vastgelegde regels, kan men kunde (wanneer (*as* veel frequenter) men ge der tijd voor/zin in heeft ed) zo logisch mogelijk proberen te spellen
> 
> 
> 
> Anderzijds ben ik een beetjen inconsequent wanneer (as) ik -de/-te als suffixen beschouw, of wa' vindde (gij)? 8)


 
Hetzelfde , linguïstisch gezien zijn het clitics dus waarom ook *ek*, *em*, *me* ... niet? Enfin, in de dagelijkse praktijk zit er niet veel logica in het neerschrijven van spreektaal - afwijkende uitspraak wordt maar soms weergegeven, sommige woorden worden om die reden aan elkaar geschreven. In de meest frequente vorm van geschreven spreektaal, chattaal en sms-taal, speelt de snelheid van het typen natuurlijk ook vaak een grote rol.


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## Grytolle

aja, 't is tenminste veel beter dan "vind egij"


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