# Pronunciation: yu (pinyin)



## yuechu

大家好！

When I hear certain speakers pronounce "yu" (such as 鱼), sometimes it sounds like there is a "y" (or at least a light "y" sound), and for other speakers it sounds like there is just the vowel "ü" without the semi-vowel "y" in front of it.
(I was originally going to reference some videos with "yu" pronounced, but it looks like it might not be allowed on here)
For example, I was listening to a Taiwanese singer being interviewed and his "yu" sounded like a ü to me (with no "y"), whereas when I've heard some 北方人 speak, I hear more of a "y" sound at the beginning. Or perhaps it has nothing to do with region, but I seem to have heard some variation in this pinyin syllable's pronunciation depending on the person. Would other people agree that the syllable "yu" is pronounced differently by different people? What do Chinese speakers think?
Thanks!


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## johnshen64

ü is a single vowel. not sure about dialect differences, but the only people I hear that pronounce it with the semivowel y are non-native speakers.


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## yuechu

Thanks for your answer!
It could just be that I am influenced by the pinyin (which has a "y" symbol). Do you mind if I ask you what region you're from, John Shen?


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## johnshen64

吳語。也講粵語和國語。🐟都是單元音。I have tried to correct my students who are nonnative speakers, but it has been a difficult task. Maybe as you said, the pinyin spelling is a reason.


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## yuechu

Oh ok! That's really interesting. (That's also neat that you are a Chinese teacher! I didn't realize that  )

Here's an example of what I mean:
Pinyin Chart
If you change the tone to the second tone on the top-right dropdown menu (I can only hear it with this speaker for the second tone) and then click on yǘ near the bottom, it sounds like there is a slight "y" sound. Do you hear it, too? Not every speaker pronounces it like that though.

I think English speakers would have the most trouble with the vowel sound though since standard English doesn't have the "ü" sound.


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## johnshen64

I listened to it a few times and could not detect the "y" sound. If you move your lip during the pronunciation of this sound (you have to move the lip if you combine a semivowel with a vowel), then it is incorrect.


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## ovaltine888

Pinyin is a borrowed Romanization system for pronunciation reference. It is not perfect especially in reflecting the combination of a consonant and a vowel. Sometimes you may find the pronunciation is not really in line with how the Pinyin is spelt. Luckily I am a native speaker and I had learnt how to pronounce a word before I learnt Pinyin. But for the language learners, it's normal to have trouble in learning pronunciation through Pinyin because it doesn't really make sense in some cases.

I had similar questions as you do when I was learning Pinyin at primary school. According to what I have learnt, "ü" and yu actually have the same sound but just "ü" is never used alone for a single character. That means when there is a character sounds "ü", it is always written as yu.


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## henter

Yuechu, 还有一种合理的解释就是存在口音的问题， 就像美国人中的南方音和纽约州的的人发音是有不同的. 中国这个问题还要复杂因为中国还有56个民族. 他们有些人的中文发音和汉人不一样. 即使在汉人中，也因为地域的关系存在不同口音, 包括南方口音. 在北方不同的地方也有口音。我家乡人的口音我都听不懂.  所以如果您听到不一样的发音也不用感到诧异. 您可以多看看那个CCTV的节目，尤其是新闻, er, 如果您可以接受枯燥的新闻. CCTV的新闻主播发音是最标准的. 算是模板.

我记得一般在学校老师都会告诉小学生要说普通话. 这个普通话和北京话还不一样. 就像我刚刚说的，CCTV新闻主播的发音被认为是最标准的中文发音.


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## AquisM

yuechu said:


> Would other people agree that the syllable "yu" is pronounced differently by different people? What do Chinese speakers think?
> Thanks!


I too have noticed this difference - that there is a semivowel-like initial in Mainland/northern Mandarin that is often not pronounced in Taiwanese and related varieties. This extends to Pinyin _yi _and _wu_.

That is, many Taiwanese speakers have a very clear glottal stop at the start when pronouncing Pinyin _yu yi wu_ [ʔy ʔi ʔu], while Mainland speakers tend to say somethinɡ like [ᶣy ʲi ʷu]. How much of this is influenced by their respective preferred transliteration system (Mainland Pinyin writes a clear _y/w_ in front, while Taiwanese Zhuyin represents them as bare vowels ㄩ ㄧ ㄨ), I do not know.l

Of course, I realise that not everyone in Mainland/Taiwan speak the way I've described here, and that in an actual conversation, both glottal stops and initial semivowels are probably much less apparent (the same speaker could present both variations in the same conversation). That being said, I have heard it enough that I associate this glottal stop-bare vowel pronunciation as a distinctively Taiwanese feature.


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## gonecar

I have always been pronouncing ü as yu whenever and wherever it is. The Chinese people are very familiar with the term 韵母( the final part in a Pinyin syllable) in preference to the term 元音( vowels), although there really are vowels in some finals(韵母).
So, I think most Chinese people don't perceive the nuance between yu and ü.


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## ovaltine888

I was taught at school that these syllables are called 直读音节 (younger generation may know it as 整体认读音节）, which are considered as a whole and do not need to spell each letter out to pronounce. In this sense, the consonant "y" does not make much difference in the pronunciation of yu.

zhi chi shi ri zi ci si yi wu yu ye yue yuan yin yun ying


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## ovaltine888

gonecar said:


> I have always been pronouncing ü as yu whenever and wherever it is. The Chinese people are very familiar with the term 韵母( the final part in a Pinyin syllable) in preference to the term 元音( vowels), although there really are vowels in some finals(韵母).
> So, I think most Chinese people don't perceive the nuance between yu and ü.


I agree with you.

Even for the vowel "o", I remember my first primary school teacher taught us to pronounce it as "wo" (starting with a consonant sound w) and later another teacher pronounced it as "o" in "box". So it's kind of bewildering. But interestingly, the two different types of pronunciation of vowel "o" do not seem to affect the pronunciation when combined with other consonant. But it did make it more difficult to reckon when I should put "o" like in "bo/po/mo/fo" and when I need to put "uo" like in "guo/kuo/luo/nuo/ruo/suo/tuo/zuo".

Anyways, the Pinyin system seems to me to be a phonic system lacking in rigour. So don't take it too seriously and just accept as is.


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## ovaltine888

ovaltine888 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Even for the vowel "o", I remember my first primary school teacher taught us to pronounce it as "wo" (starting with a consonant sound w) and later another teacher pronounced it as "o" in "box". So it's kind of bewildering. But interestingly, the two different types of pronunciation of vowel "o" do not seem to affect the pronunciation when combined with other consonant. But it did make it more difficult to reckon when I should put "o" like in "bo/po/mo/fo" and when I need to put "uo" like in "guo/kuo/luo/nuo/ruo/suo/tuo/zuo".
> 
> Anyways, the Pinyin system seems to me to be a phonic system lacking in rigour. So don't take it too seriously and just accept as is.


If you want to dig deeper, I would say bo/po/mo/fo also sound strange, don't they?

If pinyin vowel "o" pronounces as "o" in the "box", then
Pinyin "bo" should sound like "bo" in "box".
Pinyin "po" should sound like "po" in "pot".
Pinyin "mo" should sound like "mo" in "mob".
Pinyin "fo" should sound like "fo" in "fox".

But actually, you will find they also sound like with a "w" sound before "o"
Pinyin "bo" actually sounds more like "bwo"
Pinyin "po" actually sounds more like "pwo"
Pinyin "mo" actually sounds more like "mwo"
Pinyin "fo" actually sounds more like "fwo"

It is really strange, isn't it?

That's why I would say Pinyin is not really a perfect phonic system. It is not self-consistent in many ways. So just take it as a reference but not a standard or guide for your Mandarin pronunciation.


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## gonecar

ovaltine888 said:


> That's why I would say Pinyin is not really a perfect phonic system. It is not self-consistent in many ways. So just take it as a reference but not a standard or guide for your Mandarin pronunciation.


The pronunation of many pinyin letters sounds similar to that of their counterparts in English, but there are differences, big or small. 
Even the Chinese" i " is quite different from the English i sound, as ea in "eat". The way Chinese people pronounce i is more like saying a yi(一) sound, instead of a vowel i.
That explains why some Chinese people say "it is.." more like "yi-t yi-z".
Anyway, the letters are not pronounced entirely as an English speaking person would expect.


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## yuechu

@AquisM
Thanks for your analysis, AquisM! I'm glad that someone else also notices a difference there, too! (about this "allophone") I hadn't thought about it, but there is indeed a glottal stop before what would be in pinyin "yu" and "wu" for certain speakers, as you say!

Thank you, everyone else, for your replies as well! Chinese phonetics (and phonology) is very interesting! 
It's true that 汉语拼音 is not always accurate or intuitive!


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## dojibear

yuechu said:


> Here's an example of what I mean:
> Pinyin Chart


This chart is in the online Mandarin course at yoyochinese.com, and the voice in the chart is the instructor (Yangyang Cheng).

The course starts with pronunciation, and the instructor explains pinyin. She says that pinyin is a method for writing Chinese *syllables *and English speakers should never pronounce the *letters *as sounds in English. 

She says that adding a Y or W "initial" before some initial-less finals is a writing convention. The syllables in the leftmost white column (ang, yi, wu, yu...) have no initial. This is shown at the top of the chart, which lists the initial for every syllable. To the left (in blue-green), the chart shows the finals (ang, i, u, ü...) for these syllables. The white column shows the pinyin writing.

I've always assumed that this convention helps distinguish syllables (when written in roman letters). For example "yi/an/yan" are three different syllables. Without Y they would be written "i/an/ian". Pretty confusing for schoolchildren.


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