# In or at a restaurant



## Monica238

"When answering the question "where do you and young people in your country like to spend their free time?" Should I use "in" or "at" a restaurant?

In/at  a restaurant, at home or out of town.


----------



## owlman5

Either option is okay. If you visualize these young people sitting around a table in a restaurant, _in _seems likely. If you aren't really thinking about the interior of the restaurant, _at _seems likely.


----------



## Monica238

owlman5 said:


> Either option is okay. If you visualize these young people sitting around a table in a restaurant, _in _seems likely. If you aren't really thinking about the interior of the restaurant, _at _seems likely.


Your explanations are always very clear. Thank you!


----------



## elroy

I would only use “at.”

“in” is literally about being *inside* the restaurant.

_There was a fire right outside the restaurant.  Luckily I was okay because I was *in* the restaurant. _

_I hung out with my friends *at* a restaurant. _
It doesn’t matter if you were inside, on the patio, or on the rooftop.  The point is not the precise location vis-à-vis the building; the point is the activity you engaged in by patronizing the restaurant.

_My neighbor works *at* a restaurant._
See above.


----------



## Monica238

elroy said:


> I would only use “at.”
> 
> “in” is literally about being *inside* the restaurant.
> 
> _There was a fire right outside the restaurant.  Luckily I was okay because I was *in* the restaurant. _
> 
> _I hung out with my friends *at* a restaurant. _
> It doesn’t matter if you were inside, on the patio, or on the rooftop.  The point is not the precise location vis-à-vis the building; the point is the activity you engaged in by patronizing the restaurant.
> 
> _My neighbor works *at* a restaurant._
> See above.



If I understand correctly "at" is used when we describe the purpose of being there, as in "I was at a restaurant"=to eat.  Not "in a restaurant". In my original sentence "Young people like to spend their free time at a restaurant" which is  also about the purpose but as owlman5 said "in" is also possible even if I am talking about the purpose of being there because I can choose to focus on "these young people sitting around a table in a restaurant" but "if If you aren't really thinking about the interior of the restaurant, at seems likely." Right?


----------



## elroy

Even if “in” is factually true, we don’t say it unless it’s relevant to the message we are trying to convey.  In talking generally about where people like to spend their time, it has no relevance, so it’s not used. 

Here’s a context where it is relevant: 

_I really don’t like being outside, so I like meeting my friends *in* a restaurant or a bar._

Here, the specific location is relevant.  The speaker doesn’t enjoy dining on a restaurant patio, but does enjoy dining indoors.


----------



## cidertree

It's dialect dependent - I often have lunch _in_ a restaurant in Ireland - with my sister who works _in_ the local university.

The major dialects do favour "at".


----------



## london calling

cidertree said:


> It's dialect dependent - I often have lunch _in_ a restaurant in Ireland - with my sister (who works _in_ the local university).
> 
> The major dialects do favour "at".


True. I'm a Londoner whose son is a chef in a restaurant in London.


----------



## elroy

cidertree said:


> I often have lunch _in_ a restaurant in Ireland - with my sister who works _in_ the local university.





london calling said:


> I'm a Londoner whose son is a chef in a restaurant in London.


Only “at” for me in all three cases.


----------



## cidertree

Yes, we know.


----------



## london calling

At London? I couldn't say that. 'At a restaurant' works for me, however.

I can only conceive 'at +place name' for small places. 'At Amalfi', for instance, although it sounds old-fashioned to me.


----------



## elroy

Of course not.  That was a *fourth* “in” that’s not relevant to the topic.


----------



## Monica238

elroy said:


> Even if “in” is factually true, we don’t say it unless it’s relevant to the message we are trying to convey.  In talking generally about where people like to spend their time, it has no relevance, so it’s not used.
> 
> Here’s a context where it is relevant:
> 
> _I really don’t like being outside, so I like meeting my friends *in* a restaurant or a bar._
> 
> Here, the specific location is relevant.  The speaker doesn’t enjoy dining on a restaurant patio, but does enjoy dining indoors.


So judging by all the answers I have received "at" is more frequently used with places especially because it also describes the purpose of being there. But as  other native speakers said "in" can also be used instead of "at" even if I am obviously talking about why I am there as the example in post   #7 shows  "I often have lunch in a restaurant in Ireland". So it depends on personal preference. So "in" can be used to mean "at" I often have lunch at/in a restaurant" but if I am  talking about where exactly the person is,  if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in"  not "at". Right? And as you said unless it's relevant you don't use "in".


----------



## london calling

london calling said:


> At London? I couldn't say that. 'At a restaurant' works for me, however.





Monica238 said:


> if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in"  not "at". Right? *Not in BE, no.*


----------



## cidertree

Monica238 said:


> So it depends on personal preference.


No. It depends on the dialect.

Added: From experience, stick with "at" - "in" is often considered "wrong".


----------



## Monica238

If the focus is on being inside do you mean in BrE both "in" and "at" work?


----------



## london calling

Monica238 said:


> If the focus is on being inside do you mean in BrE both "in" and "on" work?


As CT says, it depends on your dialect. I don't distinguish between the meanings in BE.


----------



## Monica238

london calling said:


> As CT says, it depends on your dialect. I don't distinguish between the meanings in BE.


Do you mean BrE speakers don't distinguish between "in" used for describing the inside area and "at" for describing the purpose of being in a specific place? 


cidertree said:


> No. It depends on the dialect.
> 
> Added: From experience, stick with "at" - "in" is often considered "wrong".


OK. But according to Michael Swan's Practical English Usage "at" is used when we describe why we are there while "in" when you are more focused on the place. Should I still use "at" no matter what my sentence describes?


----------



## london calling

There are no grammar 'rules' in English, as far as I'm concerned: we have guidelines, because for every 'rule' there are exceptions, which depend on usage and the dialect you speak. I'm not saying Swan is talking rubbish (he isn't), but you can't take everything he says as the God-given truth.


----------



## cidertree

Monica238 said:


> Should I still use "at" no matter what my sentence describes?


Of course not. My posts are in reply to your OP.


----------



## Monica238

london calling said:


> There are no grammar 'rules' in English, as far as I'm concerned: we have guidelines, because for every 'rule' there are exceptions, which depend on usage and the dialect you speak. I'm not saying Swan is talking rubbish (he isn't), but you can't take everything he says as the God-given truth.


 But what did you mean when you said you don't distinguish between the  meanings? Post #17.


----------



## Monica238

cidertree said:


> Of course not. My posts are in reply to your OP.


I mean  saying no matter whether it is focused on the inside area or the  purpose saying that I should always use "at" not "in" is wrong, isn't it?

  "if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in" not "at". Right?

 "Not in BE, no." This is London Calling's reply. I couldn't quote it.

 But  for AmE it's true, isn't it?

"Not in BrE" part  I should understand as   even if the focus is on the inside area BrE speakers use either "in" or "at." Right?


----------



## cidertree

Monica238 said:


> I mean saying no matter whether it is focused on the inside area or the purpose saying that I should always use "at" not "in" is wrong, isn't it?


It would be, yes. I don't believe anyone has said that.

Have a look again at #4, which applies for the major dialects - then take my "in a restaurant" as an "exception" - typical in at least one minor dialect.


----------



## Monica238

cidertree said:


> It would be, yes. I don't believe anyone has said that.





cidertree said:


> Have a look again at #4, which applies for the major dialects - then take my "in a restaurant" as an "exception" - typical in at least one minor dialect.


Everything is clear except for this part: "if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in" not "at". Right?

"Not in BE, no." This is London Calling's reply.  Should I understand it as BrE uses both "at" and "in" if the focus is in the inside but AmE uses 'in' not "at" when the focus is on the inside when we are talking about the place. However, both use "at" when the purpose of being in a place is being described. Am I right?


----------



## a little edgy

There are so many variations in usage that it will be an exercise in frustration to try to make a hard-and-fast rule. 

In AE, usually, we eat *at* a restaurant, but we sit *in* a restaurant. 

About the only "rule" I can think of is that (in AE) when the name of the restaurant is given, it's almost always "at". "We ate *at* Joe's Bar and Grill." But, even there: "We were *in* Joe's Bar and Grill when it started snowing." ("At" is also possible here. The difference would depend on whether it mattered to your meaning that you were *inside *the restaurant*. *See what I mean?)

This is a situation where a native speaker will instinctively and automatically use one or the other preposition according to their particular dialect, the specific situation, and the meaning they want to convey, with some random variation even within dialects.


----------



## london calling

Monica238 said:


> Everything is clear except for this part: "if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in" not "at". Right?
> 
> "Not in BE, no." This is London Calling's reply.  Should I understand it as BrE uses both "at" and "in" if the focus is in the inside but AmE uses 'in' not "at" when the focus is on the inside when we are talking about the place. However, both use "at" when the purpose of being in a place is being described. Am I right?


As we have said several times now, what we use depends on our dialect/usage.


----------



## Monica238

london calling said:


> As we have said several times now, what we use depends on our dialect/usage.


But what did you mean by "not, in BE?" 

 "if my focus is on the inside then it should be "in" not "at". Right?

"Not in BE."

Weren't you describing what is generally used as a general guideline?


----------



## Monica238

a little edgy said:


> There are so many variations in usage that it will be an exercise in frustration to try to make a hard-and-fast rule.
> 
> In AE, usually, we eat *at* a restaurant, but we sit *in* a restaurant.
> 
> About the only "rule" I can think of is that (in AE) when the name of the restaurant is given, it's almost always "at". "We ate *at* Joe's Bar and Grill." But, even there: "We were *in* Joe's Bar and Grill when it started snowing." ("At" is also possible here. The difference would depend on whether it mattered to your meaning that you were *inside *the restaurant*. *See what I mean?)
> 
> This is a situation where a native speaker will instinctively and automatically use one or the other preposition according to their particular dialect, the specific situation, and the meaning they want to convey, with some random variation even within dialects.


Thus, can I use the following as a guideline:  BrE uses both "at" and "in" if the focus is in the inside but AmE uses 'in' not "at" when the focus is on the inside when we are talking about the place. As you said if  it matters  to my meaning that I  am inside. I use "in". 
However, both use "at" when the purpose of being in a place is being described. Am I right?


----------



## london calling

I'm abandoning this thread, as it's far too repetitive.


----------



## Monica238

a little edgy said:


> There are so many variations in usage that it will be an exercise in frustration to try to make a hard-and-fast rule.
> 
> In AE, usually, we eat *at* a restaurant, but we sit *in* a restaurant.
> 
> About the only "rule" I can think of is that (in AE) when the name of the restaurant is given, it's almost always "at". "We ate *at* Joe's Bar and Grill." But, even there: "We were *in* Joe's Bar and Grill when it started snowing." ("At" is also possible here. The difference would depend on whether it mattered to your meaning that you were *inside *the restaurant*. *See what I mean?)


You said "at" is also  possible. As in
 "We were *at*  Joe's Bar and Grill when it started snowing."  "At" in this case is used to  mean what  we were doing, but if I use "in"  it would express where we were, inside the restaurant. Do I understand correctly?





a little edgy said:


> This is a situation where a native speaker will instinctively and automatically use one or the other preposition according to their particular dialect, the specific situation, and the meaning they want to convey, with some random variation even within dialects.


----------



## a little edgy

"At" indicates location, not what you were doing, and it says that your location was the restaurant. "In" does, in my opinion, emphasize the interior location, which is relevant in my example because something noteworthy (in this case, snow) happened outside. But you might also say, "we were *at* Joe's Bar and Grill when the snow started". As I've tried to say, there's really not a hard-and-fast, either/or rule. People say whatever pops into their head at the moment, and no one would remark the use of either preposition in this situation.


----------



## cidertree

a little edgy said:


> no one would remark the use of either preposition in this situation.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Hard and fast prescriptive rules can't be given only generalities.
The baselines as given by Swan hold good in general. I mean 'at' when the purpose matters or speaking generally, but use 'in' when being inside is the focus.
Let's say we are talking about a gardener employed by a hospital - "Tom's working at the Royal Victoria these days". We are unlikely to choose "in the hospital" because gardeners don't work indoors. His brother Bill is an electrician at the same place (speaking generally again). 
We can say "Bill works at a hospital somewhere down south". We don't need to specify 'in' because we imagine he's indoors.
It's not that complicated!
If you are teaching it you will be keeping it simple anyway. The main thing is to learn the classic 'at' phrases - 'at home' and 'at work' have different meanings from 'in (a) home' or 'in work' even though _literally_ most people are indoors.


----------



## Monica238

Hermione Golightly said:


> Hard and fast prescriptive rules can't be given only generalities.
> The baselines as given by Swan hold good in general. I mean 'at' when the purpose matters or speaking generally, but use 'in' when being inside is the focus.
> Let's say we are talking about a gardener employed by a hospital - "Tom's working at the Royal Victoria these days". We are unlikely to choose "in the hospital" because gardeners don't work indoors. His brother Bill is an electrician at the same place (speaking generally again).
> We can say "Bill works at a hospital somewhere down south". We don't need to specify 'in' because we imagine he's indoors.
> It's not that complicated!
> If you are teaching it you will be keeping it simple anyway. The main thing is to learn the classic 'at' phrases - 'at home' and 'at work' have different meanings from 'in (a) home' or 'in work' even though _literally_ most people are indoors.


So

At" indicates location as well as the purpose as Swan says ( but I don't understand why a little edgy says "at" doesn't say what you were doing." Isn't that the same as purpose?)  and "at" also  says that my location was the restaurant. "In"  emphasizes the interior location. That's why I understand this sentence with "at" "We were at Joe's Bar and Grill when the snow started" to refer to  either our location or  the purpose of being there or to both of them at the same time. As in "at"= "We were eating when it started to snow" and "we were there in a restaurant when it started to snow." I choose to focus one one of the meanings of "at" or on both of them if it's possible.
But "We were in Joe's Bar and Grill when the snow started" I understand this sentence to refer to the interior location not the purpose. "In"= "I was inside the restaurant."  Is my understanding correct now?


----------



## Hermione Golightly

I think you are still trying to be too prescriptive because so much depends on the surrounding context. It doesn't matter much if you say 'at' or 'in' when talking about a restaurant because we will assume they were there to eat a meal. We can also assume that the weather has been cold enough for people not to be eating out-of-doors. And so-on ... . In your reading, which should include some fiction with dialogue, notice what people use. Same with watching and listening, if you have the opportunity to see English language films and access to YouTube.


----------



## Roxxxannne

I don't think of 'at' as having much to do with purpose.
My husband calls me to ask where I am.  I say, "I'm at Debbie's house." I mean I'm somewhere related to her house: on the porch, in one of the rooms, outside looking at the flowers in her garden. 'At' just conveys the general location; it doesn't say why I am at her house.

To me 'what I was doing' is much different from 'why I was there.'
'I was at the library all evening.'  I might expect that to mean that the person was studying or using some library materials that can't be removed from the library, but out of context I don't really know.  I can't tell whether the speaker was chatting with friends or studying or at work shelving books.  Nor can I tell the the speaker's intended purpose in going to the library.


----------



## Monica238

Hermione Golightly said:


> I think you are still trying to be too prescriptive because so much depends on the surrounding context. It doesn't matter much if you say 'at' or 'in' when talking about a restaurant because we will assume they were there to eat a meal. We can also assume that the weather has been cold enough for people not to be eating out-of-doors. And so-on ... . In your reading which should include some fiction with dialogue, notice what people use. Same with watching and listening, if you have the opportunity to see English language films access to YouTube.


I see. Thank you so much for replying again. The explanations I have read in this thread  are different from what our textbooks say. I would say they (forum explanations) are easier to understand and don't make learners stick to only one idea.


----------



## Roymalika

owlman5 said:


> Either option is okay. If you visualize these young people sitting around a table in a restaurant, _in _seems likely. If you aren't really thinking about the interior of the restaurant, _at _seems likely.


Hi owlman, 
I said to my friend:
I am going to meet my friend *in/at* the restaurant today. 

Would either "at" or "in" be used by native speakers here?


----------



## owlman5

Hi, Roy.


Roymalika said:


> Would either "at" or "in" be used by native speakers here?


I can't speak for all native speakers, of course, but I would probably use _at _in that sentence rather than _in. _

I would also expect to hear _at _rather than _in _from one of my compatriots unless somebody was trying to be very specific about a location within the building: _I will meet you in the waiting room of the Texas Roadhouse at 7:00 p.m. _


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Owlman's response sums up the earlier ones. Did you read them? Mine is similar - it all depends what you want to express.  You can say 'I'll wait for you outside' or 'I'll wait for you inside', if you want to be more precise.


----------



## Roymalika

owlman5 said:


> I can't speak for all native speakers, of course, but I would probably use _at _in that sentence rather than _in._


There is no mention in my sentence whether I'm talking about inside the restaurant or outside the restaurant, so I'm sorry to ask, why are you sure that you'd use "at" there?


----------



## owlman5

There isn't any need to be sorry. Unless you have some particular reason to use _in, _I recommend that you use _at _in your comments about meeting somebody at a restaurant.


----------



## Roymalika

owlman5 said:


> There isn't any need to be sorry. Unless you have some particular reason to use _in, _I recommend that you use _at _in your comments about meeting somebody at a restaurant.


If you've made clear in the context that you're going to meet your friend _inside_ the restaurant, would you then use "I'm going to meet my friend _*in*_ the restaurant"?


----------



## owlman5

Roymalika said:


> would you then use "I'm going to meet my friend _*in*_ the restaurant"?


Probably not. _At the restaurant _is normal if the fact that you will be inside the restaurant is not particularly important. It usually isn't important because people ordinarily walk into restaurants and wait somewhere inside those restaurants until their friends arrive.

If you need to specify some particular location within the restaurant, then it might make sense to use _in _or some other preposition: _I will meet you by the greeting station at the front of the restaurant. I will meet you in the waiting area of the restaurant. I will meet you by the booths along the back wall of the restaurant. I will meet you in the little lounge near the front of the restaurant._


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Roymalika, I am surprised that you interpret 'I would probably use _at_' as meaning 'I am sure I would use _at_'. I would say what I needed to say to make my meaning as clear as it needed to be. I might not need to specify 'in'. 'At' is a general word.
As a woman, I prefer not to stand outside waiting especially on a winter's evening when it's dark or cold. If I'm meeting up with someone at a museum or station or airport, I will insist on a precise place.


----------

