# Un couple typique de paysans français/ A typical couple of French farmers



## Ibn Nacer

Bonsoir,

J'ai essayé de traduire cette phrase "_Nous pouvons voir sur cette image un couple typique de paysans français_" en arabe :

إِنَّا نَسْتَطِيعُ أنْ نَرَى فِي هَذِهِ الصُّورَةِ زَوْجَيْنِ نَمُوذَجِيَّ  مِنَ الفَلَّاحَيْنِ الفَرَنْسِيَّةَ

​Je pense qu'il faut que الفَرَنْسِيَّةَ et نَمُوذَجِيَّ soient au duel mais je ne sais pas comment on les écrit.

Sinon est-ce que la phrase est correcte en arabe (par rapport au sens, la forme, les mots...) ?

Merci.



​


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## Crimson-Sky

Almost.
اننا نستطيع ان نرى في هذه الصورة زوجين نموذجيين من الفلاحين الفرنسيين.


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## barkoosh

As Crimson-Sky said, only زَوْجَيْنِ نَمُوذَجِيَّيْنِ is dual; الفَلاحِينَ الفَرَنْسِيِّينَ is plural.

إنّا is old Arabic. Today we use إنّنا

إننا نستطيع أن seems a bit awkward. You can just say نرى في هذه الصورة زوجين نموذجيين من الفلاحين الفرنسيين.


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## Abu Talha

Ibn Nacer said:


> إِنَّا نَسْتَطِيعُ أنْ نَرَى فِي هَذِهِ الصُّورَةِ زَوْجَيْنِ نَمُوذَجِيَّ  مِنَ الفَلَّاحَيْنِ الفَرَنْسِيَّةَ


Do you think that it ought to be الفَلَّاحِينَ in the plural, not the dual?


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## Crataegus

Salam


Abu Talha said:


> Do you think that it ought to be الفَلَّاحِينَ in the plural, not the dual?



First of All زَوجين will indicate four people not two, (literally two couples) and there's no need to إنَّا or إننا at the beginning of the sentence
finally you can't use الفلاحِين in dual in this context

in my opinion this sentence should be
 *نستطيع أن نرى زوجاً نموذجياً من الفلاحِين الفرنسيين في هذه الصورة*
or
 *نرى في هذه الصورة زوجاً نموذجياً من الفلاحِين الفرنسيين*


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## Crimson-Sky

I blindly responded, there is only one couple so it should be زوجاً. I agree with you Crataegus


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## Abu Talha

Crimson-Sky said:


> I blindly responded, there is only one couple so it should be زوجاً. I agree with you Crataegus


With regards to زوج referring to a pair or one of a pair, modern usage excepted, it seems that classically the latter may have been preferred, although both are allowed. محمد العدناني in معجم الأخطاء الشائعة says that الحريري said الزوج في كلام العرب الفرد المزاوج لصاحبه ، وأما الاثنان المصطبحان ، فيقال لهما زوجان كما قالوا: عندي زوجان من النعال ، أي : نعلان ...

He then gives a few examples. However, العدناني also mentions وأجاز الصحاح واللسان والمحيط والتاج ومد القاموس ومتن اللغة أن يقال للاثنين : هما زوجان ، وهما زوج.

However, in any case, wouldn't زوج only be used for a pair that are the _only_ two of a kind, i.e., it is not as general as the English "a couple". In English we can say, "We see in this picture *a couple* of farmers." and it sounds better (to me) than "We see in this picture *a pair* of farmers." 

Could زوج/زوجان be used in Arabic in this situation or should one use اثنان or فلاحان ?


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## Tracer

Abu Talha said:


> However, in any case, wouldn't زوج only be used for a pair that are the _only_ two of a kind, i.e., it is not as general as the English "a couple". In English we can say, "We see in this picture *a couple* of farmers." and it sounds better (to me) than "We see in this picture *a pair* of farmers."



Just some random comments:

1.  I believe the French original  “_un couple typique de paysans français” _doesn’t simply mean two….it means a married “couple”…husband and wife.

2.  In English, “a couple of” usually implies MORE than just 2…..it means 2 but more likely 3 or more.

(I’ve spoken to him a couple of times) doesn’t mean you spoke to him 2 times only.....it means you've spoken to him AT LEAST 2 times but more likely 3 or 4 times.

3.  A couple of typical French peasants = several typical French peasants.

 A typical French peasant couple = a husband and wife who happen to be French and peasants

4.  Doesn’t the Arabic word زوج  also mean “a married couple” when talking about people?  It doesn’t simply mean 2 people.

Bottom line:  I believe the Arabic or English translation of the original French must state or at least imply that the picture shows a married couple....a man and a woman.....not  just 2 people.


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## Crataegus

Abu Talha said:


> With regards to زوج referring to a pair or one of a pair, modern usage excepted, it seems that classically the latter may have been preferred, although both are allowed. محمد العدناني in معجم الأخطاء الشائعة says that الحريري said الزوج في كلام العرب الفرد المزاوج لصاحبه ، وأما الاثنان المصطبحان ، فيقال لهما زوجان كما قالوا: عندي زوجان من النعال ، أي : نعلان ...
> 
> He then gives a few examples. However, العدناني also mentions وأجاز الصحاح واللسان والمحيط والتاج ومد القاموس ومتن اللغة أن يقال للاثنين : هما زوجان ، وهما زوج.
> 
> However, in any case, wouldn't زوج only be used for a pair that are the _only_ two of a kind, i.e., it is not as general as the English "a couple". In English we can say, "We see in this picture *a couple* of farmers." and it sounds better (to me) than "We see in this picture *a pair* of farmers."
> 
> Could زوج/زوجان be used in Arabic in this situation or should one use اثنان or فلاحان ?




Thanks Abu Talha this is interesting, I would like to know what other members think, but I'm pretty sure modern usage is not limited to "pair" it's more close to the English word "couple" 
You're free to free to use "فلاحان" or "اثنان من الفلاحين" either of them is correct


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## Xence

Crataegus said:


> *نستطيع أن نرى زوجاً نموذجياً من الفلاحِين الفرنسيين في هذه الصورة*



I would second this suggestion, with a slight modification :

يمكننا أن نرى في هذه الصورة زَوْجاً نموذجياً من الفلاحِين الفرنسيِّين


***

As a side note, most Maghrebi dialects use the word زوج as a synonym of اثنان .


.


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you very much for your answers.

 Tracer is right it is indeed a married couple (husband and wife). 

In the dictionary I found:



> couple mixte زَوْجانِ مُخْتَلِفا اﻻنْتِماءِ
> former un couple harmonieux  شَكَّلَا زَوْجَيْنِ يَتَناسَبانِ
> un couple de danseurs زَوْجٌ مِنَ الرّاقِصينَ



 So it would seem necessary to use the word "زَوْجانِ" to say "one married couple", right?


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## Crimson-Sky

Ibn Nacer said:


> Thank you very much for your answers.
> 
> Tracer is right it is indeed a married couple (husband and wife).
> 
> In the dictionary I found:
> 
> 
> 
> So it would seem necessary to use the word "زَوْجانِ" to say "one married couple", right?



Yes.


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## Ibn Nacer

Crimson-Sky said:


> Yes.


Thank you.


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## إسكندراني

Eugh, this الفلاحين الفرنسيين is so disgusting to my ear. I even see the media using مغربيون and تونسيون instead of مغاربة and توانسة (maybe these are not considered 'proper MSA' whatever that is?!). In any case I think it would sound much nicer to say من فلّاحين فرنسا


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## Crataegus

إسكندراني said:


> Eugh, this الفلاحين الفرنسيين is so disgusting to my ear. I even see the media using مغربيون and تونسيون instead of مغاربة and توانسة (maybe these are not considered 'proper MSA' whatever that is?!). In any case I think it would sound much nicer to say من فلّاحين فرنسا



اسكندراني I believe this should be من فلّاحي فرنسا
حذفت النون للإضافة


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## إسكندراني

شكرًا لك!ـ


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## Ibn Nacer

إسكندراني said:


> Eugh, this الفلاحين الفرنسيين is so disgusting to my ear. I even see the media using مغربيون and تونسيون instead of مغاربة and توانسة (maybe these are not considered 'proper MSA' whatever that is?!). In any case I think it would sound much nicer to say من فلّاحين فرنسا


Yes it is hard for me to pronounce زَوْجَيْنِ نَمُوذَجِيَّيْنِ or الفَلاحِينَ الفَرَنْسِيِّينَ.

But how to do with زَوْجَيْنِ نَمُوذَجِيَّيْنِ ?


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## إسكندراني

زوجَين نموذجيَّيْن is fine by me; I don't hate _all_ such constructions!  Just unneccessary ـين ـون in plural because several in a row is long for no good reason.
I have noticed French speakers have trouble distinguishing (î) from (y), this may be where your difficulty lies.
na-muu-dha-djiy-yay-n


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## Crimson-Sky

إسكندراني said:


> Eugh, this الفلاحين الفرنسيين is so disgusting to my ear. I even see the media using مغربيون and تونسيون instead of مغاربة and  توانسة  (maybe these are not considered 'proper MSA' whatever that is?!). In any case I think it would sound much nicer to say من فلّاحين فرنسا



As far as i know we don't say توانسة (that's a dialect). Honestly i don't think i have ever heard it (as an Arabic word), why do you think it should be توانسة ?


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## إسكندراني

Because it exists. And it is a totally Arabic pattern, look at أسماء نسبة for many tribes and you'll find it's on that pattern. Moreover تونسيون just feels wrong. I guess this is a result of MSA not being regulated.
It would be interesting to know what the Tunisian government itself uses.


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