# balcony vs terrace



## lobelia.ophrys

Hello everybody,

I wondered what word is used to describe this "thing":

http://media.rightmove.co.uk/90k/89513/27942723/89513_10126527_IMG_00_0006.JPG

Since it's based on the ground floor (first floor for AE), can I say it's a balcony (or it's called a terrace when on the ground floor)?

Thank you in advance.


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## JulianStuart

No. A balcony is always elevated, so a "ground-floor balcony" is an oxymoron


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## lobelia.ophrys

JulianStuart said:


> No. A balcony is always elevated, so a "ground-floor balcony" is an oxymoron



Thank you very much! So, since it's an oxymoron, is it correct to say that? Or it's better to use "terrace"?


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## Sparky Malarky

What an interesting question!  

Obviously, this thing would be called a balcony if it were on the second floor, or higher.  It looks like it's identical to a balcony right above it, except for being at ground level.  Most free-standing houses would not have a ... whatever this is ... with access to the outside, but which is at ground level, but is blocked off from the ground.  That is, you can't step out that door and walk out into the yard.  If you could, I would call this a patio.  And even though you can't, I would probably call it a patio anyway.


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## lobelia.ophrys

We do have this kind of "thing" in our place and I never know how to call it since a terrace is not the right word either! So for you, the thing on the picture would be called a patio?


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## suzi br

Julian is correct. 

However, your sample certainly   has been designed to look like a balcony from that photo. 

It's not how I visualise a terrace, being so boxed in. 

Do you have a sentence in mind?


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## Trochfa

Where I'm from, even though it is an oxymoron, it is always called a "ground floor balcony" simply because there isn't another simple, well-known name for it. Rightly or wrongly that is what it seems to be called in Local Authority planning applications across the UK.


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## lobelia.ophrys

suzi br said:


> Julian is correct.
> 
> However, your sample certainly   has been designed to look like a balcony from that photo.
> 
> It's not how I visualise a terrace, being so boxed in.
> 
> Do you have a sentence in mind?



I don't have a sentence in mind, unfortunately. It's for e desciption in a script → EXT. RETIREMENT HOME, BALCONY/TERRACE (or whathever!) - DAY

But I could say "Imelda placed her peony near the railing of her balcony/terrace"


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## lobelia.ophrys

Trochfa said:


> Where I'm from, even though it is an oxymoron, it is always called a "ground floor balcony" simply because there isn't another simple, well-known name for it. Rightly or wrongly it is what it seems to be called in Local Authority planning applications across the UK.



Wonderful! Thank you VERY MUCH for your help!


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## RM1(SS)

I'd call that a porch.


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## lobelia.ophrys

RM1(SS) said:


> I'd call that a porch.



Though a porch is in front of the house...(?!) which is not the case here


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## JulianStuart

acid...burn said:


> Though a porch is in front of the house...(?!) which is not the case here


Porches often are at the front of a house but they are not restricted to that location - they can be on any outside wall.  I think the word is close, but I'd hesitate to use the word if you cannot access the interior of the house f_rom the lawn outside_ the "enclosed patio" in the original picture.


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## Hildy1

JulianStuart said:


> Porches often are at the front of a house but they are not restricted to that location - they can be on any outside wall.



Agreed. You can have a front porch, a back porch, a side porch, a wrap-around porch... 
The house that I grew up in had a front porch and a back porch.


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## Copyright

acid...burn said:


> Since it's based on the ground floor (first floor for AE) ...


It's my understanding that the AE ground floor is the BE first floor.


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## natkretep

I thought the AmE ground floor was the BrE ground floor?

BrE ground floor = AmE ground floor = AmE first floor
BrE first floor = AmE second floor
etc


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## DonnyB

In BE, the "ground floor" of a building is the_ floor at ground level _(i.e. the first one you come to when you walk straight in from the street outside).

What's that in AE?


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## Copyright

DonnyB said:


> In BE, the "ground floor" of a building is the_ floor at ground level _(i.e. the first one you come to when you walk straight in from the street outside).
> 
> What's that in AE?


It's the ground floor (I think). But I could have sworn that in the former British colony of Hong Kong, people called it the first floor. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's actually reversed. Or maybe AE and BE are the same. I remain confused.


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## DonnyB

Copyright said:


> It's the ground floor (I think). But I could have sworn that in the former British colony of Hong Kong, people called it the first floor. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's actually reversed. Or maybe AE and BE are the same. I remain confused.


Re-reading Nat's post (#15) I think you _may_ have reversed them.  When we lived out in Hong Kong for a time in the late 1950s, we had a_ ground-floor flat_.

Going back to the original thread topic, the upstairs flats had balconies, but ours had a small front garden with a tiled area which I recollect my parents referring to as the _verandah.
_



 
That's me standing on it in the photo._ _


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## natkretep

_Porch_ and _veranda(h)_ were also terms that came to mind, and I didn't suggest them because a porch tends not to be enclosed (and I note in posts 10-13, people have various restrictions on the term). Similarly the veranda(h), although I associate it with the area in front of the house.

Copyright, I think in Hong Kong, as far as postal addresses go (in English), the British system of ground, first, second ... (or in Hong Kong abbreviated form: G/F, 1/F, 2/F, ...) is employed. The tricky thing is of course in _Chinese _(including _Cantonese_), you go the equivalent of first, second, third ... instead. And if you were speaking in English, you'd say you were on the first-floor flat; but if you spoke Chinese you might well say second floor! All terribly confusing.


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## Copyright

Thanks, DonnyB.

And special thanks to natkretep for assuring me that I'm not crazy – I spent so much time conversing in Cantonese that _that_'s where the confusion is/was. Sorry to clutter up the thread with that detour, but I'm very happy to have help in figuring out what the problem was. 

Many thanks.


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## JulianStuart

Copyright said:


> It's the ground floor (I think). But I could have sworn that in the former British colony of Hong Kong, people called it the first floor. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's actually reversed. Or maybe AE and BE are the same. I remain confused.


US                      |      BE
G =1    first level |      G= G   Ground level
2     second level |       1=   First level above ground
3 etc


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## lobelia.ophrys

That's very confusing, indeed... ground floor (BE) and first floor (EN) but in French, it's the same than for BE so it's a bit easier for me.  BUT very confusing regading terrace/balcony/porch, etc... the tiled floor on which DonnyB is standing is called a terrace in French... since a veranda(h) is a room of the house on the outside of the house with no walls but only panes like this: http://www.profils-systemes.com/var...3-1-fre-FR/veranda-wallis-7_product_slide.jpg


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## Trochfa

Just to confuse things further, in my variant of BE, the picture in post #22 shows a conservatory. 

Also, just to stir things up, I always think of a classic veranda as being like the one shown here:
Veranda - Wikipedia

I think that is why DonnyB's parents called their tiled area a veranda, because it has some sort of cover above it and is open on the side to the elements. [DonnyB, please feel free to correct me and say what you think.]


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## ewie

acid...burn said:


> I wondered what word is used to describe this "thing":
> http://media.rightmove.co.uk/90k/89513/27942723/89513_10126527_IMG_00_0006.JPG


I'd call it an _enclosed patio verandah terrace thing_, AB


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## PaulQ

I'd go for "a patio" - a patio is ground floor and tiled. For me, a verandah is always slightly elevated from the surrounding ground. A terrace is far bigger than a patio and has significantly more width than depth (except for roof-terraces.)

Balcony:




Terrace:




Patio:





Verandah - always has a roof:


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## RM1(SS)

I agree with Trochfa and Paul on the verandah -- though I might also call it a lanai.


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## JulianStuart

Paul's picture of a verandah is the same as the images you get when you do a Google search (within the US, at least) for "porch".  I understand lanai as a Hawaiian name for the same thing. I'm coming to the conclusion that the OP's picture is best described as a "ground-floor balcony"  (A true balcony is not something you can access except from inside!)


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## You little ripper!

acid...burn said:


> I don't have a sentence in mind, unfortunately. It's for e desciption in a script → EXT. RETIREMENT HOME, BALCONY/TERRACE (or whathever!) - DAY
> 
> But I could say "Imelda placed her peony near the railing of her balcony/terrace"


Since the terminology seems to vary a little between America and the UK, it might be helpful to know the country the movie will be set in, a...b. Have you already mentioned this in a previous thread?


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## JMJimmy

JulianStuart said:


> No. A balcony is always elevated, so a "ground-floor balcony" is an oxymoron



Signed up just to correct this.  Ground floor balcony is not an oxymoron and is frequently used in modern architecture.  The characteristics of a balcony are that it's attached to the wall and enclosed by railing.  They can be interior, exterior, and even on the ground floor.  There is also a recessed balcony which differs in that it has walls on 3 sides.  Here's an example of a ground floor recessed balcony: https://realestatebyline.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/dsc04229-001.jpg


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## JMJimmy

acid...burn said:


> Hello everybody,
> 
> I wondered what word is used to describe this "thing":
> 
> http://media.rightmove.co.uk/90k/89513/27942723/89513_10126527_IMG_00_0006.JPG



This is a recessed ground floor balcony



RM1(SS) said:


> I'd call that a porch.



A porch or verandah is fully roofed, open on at least 2 sides, and is adjunct to the building



DonnyB said:


> Going back to the original thread topic, the upstairs flats had balconies, but ours had a small front garden with a tiled area which I recollect my parents referring to as the _verandah.
> _
> View attachment 20807
> That's me standing on it in the photo._ _



Very nice picture   You're standing on a patio though


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## JulianStuart

Welcome!


JMJimmy said:


> Signed up just to correct this.  Ground floor balcony is not an oxymoron and is frequently used in modern architecture.  The characteristics of a balcony are that it's attached to the wall and enclosed by railing.  They can be interior, exterior, and even on the ground floor.  There is also a recessed balcony which differs in that it has walls on 3 sides.  Here's an example of a ground floor recessed balcony: https://realestatebyline.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/dsc04229-001.jpg


Well, call me idiosyncratic but I would not call those on the ground floor balconies.
Nor would the WRF dictionary  I won't dispute that your experience is with those who use it that way, but it's not universal, so "correct" may not be the right word.  It might even reflect a difference in usage between AE and BE, so you'll have to disclose which you speak (Edit: Oxford, Cambridge, Macmillan and Collins all have entries consistent with the Random House one below with "elevated" as part of the definition)



> bal•co•ny /ˈbælkəni/  n.[countable], pl.  *-nies.*
> 
> Architecture: an elevated platform on the outside wall of a building.
> an upstairs seating area in a theater.


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## AutumnOwl

It would have been interesting to see the item in the first photo from the outside, is it at level with the lawn or is it a bit above the ground. A balcony could be elevated just by 10 to 15 cm, see phote #3: Falkenberg, Opalen


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## JMJimmy

Balcony:
Art & Architecture Thesaurus Full Record Display (Getty Research)

Recessed Balcony
Art & Architecture Thesaurus Full Record Display (Getty Research)


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## JulianStuart

JMJimmy said:


> Balcony:
> Art & Architecture Thesaurus Full Record Display (Getty Research)
> 
> Recessed Balcony
> Art & Architecture Thesaurus Full Record Display (Getty Research)


It's not uncommon for a specific field (such as architecture, engineering, chemistry, statistics etc) to make and use a more specific (or different) definition than the one used by "common" people for clear communications within that field.  Those end up exisitng side by side with the more generally used one.  When they become commonly enough used, mainstream dictionaries will add the second meaning.


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## Andygc

From your first link, a balcony has to be a platform projecting from a wall. In the version of English I speak, a platform is not at the same level as the ground, and there is no such thing as a ground floor or ground level balcony. I think that was also the case for my architect father, but he's no longer around to ask. It also seems a bit odd that Getty Research should claim that "balconies" is preferred to "balcony" - but I'm not quite clear on why their entry is arranged and annotated as it is.

The dictionaries that are relevant to my version of English say:
Oxford 





> A platform enclosed by a wall or balustrade on the outside of a building, *with access from an upper-floor window or door.*


Cambridge 





> an area with a wall or bars around it that is joined to the outside wall of a building *on an upper level*



I'm perfectly happy to accept that it might exist in your version of English, which appears to Art & Architecture American English, but it would be helpful if you would let us know what that is by editing your profile.


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## JMJimmy

JulianStuart said:


> It's not uncommon for a specific field (such as architecture, engineering, chemistry, statistics etc) to make and use a more specific (or different) definition than the one used by "common" people for clear communications within that field.  Those end up exisitng side by side with the more generally used one.  When they become commonly enough used, mainstream dictionaries will add the second meaning.



That's not what Getty does - it reviews definitions from numerous sources (not just dictionaries) in multiple languages to isolate the definition that is more or less universally used.  In the case of balconies the German, Dutch, Chinese, American, and many other definitions do not use "elevated" or "exterior/outside".  The Spanish definition includes "elevated".


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## JMJimmy

What would Cambridge/Oxford/WRF call https://st.hzcdn.com/fimgs/80610f0402f54442_8362-w500-h666-b0-p0--mediterranean-kitchen.jpg They are not "outside" but are still balconies.  That's the trouble with dictionaries, they take the "common" usage even when the common usage does not encompass a full understanding of a concept


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## Andygc

JMJimmy said:


> You're standing on a patio though


No, he was standing on a verandah. You might call it a patio, but they called it a verandah, because that was the name they had for it. We didn't have "patios" in Britain and Hong Kong when DonnyB and I were children * - and when I lived in what might well have been one of those same flats several years later, it was still a verandah. (It does look rather like Waterloo Road, but I might be mistaken).

PS *
We had the _word _in English, but ordinary people didn't have the actual, physical patios.


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## JulianStuart

JMJimmy said:


> That's not what Getty does - it reviews definitions from numerous sources (not just dictionaries) in multiple languages to isolate the definition that is more or less universally used.  In the case of balconies the German, Dutch, Chinese, American, and many other definitions do not use "elevated" or "exterior/outside".  The Spanish definition includes "elevated".


As I suggested, a specialized function rolling together input from all sorts of languages into and architecture-specific consensus.  (Discussions in this forum are immune to influence from the meanings of similar/cognates in other languages - reflected in the name "English Only". The next logical step is to review the definition for platform platform - WordReference.com Dictionary of English and it, too, has the general component of elevated.)
The Getty definition is different from a significant number of Engish dictionaries and comments from other English speakers here.  Obviously _some_ use the term in a way that is compatible with the plane of the balcony being at the same elevation as the surrounding ground plane, but I suspect they are outnumbered by those ("common" English speakers) who automatically think of a plane significantly elevated from the ground plane - that is reflected in those dictionary definitions include that aspect of the meaning. (We could look at etymology too but that can be misleading to inform a current meaning.)  

I presume your registration was solely in response to post #2 where I used the word "never"* but perhaps you whizzed by #27 where I accepted it but with the required "ground-floor" as a descriptive addition, to clarify it for the multitudes who think of a balcony as significantly elevated from ground level.

*A very rare and possibly misplaced breaking of my rule of "Never say _never_ or _always_ when discussing English language issues!"


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## RM1(SS)

JMJimmy said:


> A porch or verandah is fully roofed


I wonder what you'd call my side porch, then.  It's identical to my front porch***, except that it has no roof.


* Which looks something like this:


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## JMJimmy

RM1(SS) said:


> I wonder what you'd call my side porch, then.  It's identical to my front porch***, except that it has no roof.



That'd be a deck

The main difference between a ground floor balcony and a deck is that the balcony protrudes from the wall where a deck is attached to it after the fact.


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## DavidSco

I would call what is pictured in #1 an enclosed terrace.

#40, a verandah.  The same with no roof, a raised terrace.

In Scotland (and I think in England) a porch would be a small fully enclosed area abutting a house, to partially isolate what would otherwise be an exterior door from the weather.  In the USA, I think this might be referred to as a screen porch.


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## JMJimmy

DavidSco said:


> I would call what is pictured in #1 an enclosed terrace.
> 
> #40, a verandah.  The same with no roof, a raised terrace.
> 
> In Scotland (and I think in England) a porch would be a small fully enclosed area abutting a house, to partially isolate what would otherwise be an exterior door from the weather.  In the USA, I think this might be referred to as a screen porch.



Terrace is a really interesting one.  Nothing we see on a typical building is actually a terrace.  And this is why you also need to look at other languages.  It comes from French basically meaning "a mound of earth" or "a platform on a mound of earth" but the English generally didn't translate it properly.  In Elizabethan times they began referring to the upper stage of a theatre as a terrace, which was often a balcony.  That translation mistake has persisted for over 400 years.  Architecturally speaking terrace generally refers to a sloped site that is flattened at intervals like:

https://static2.businessinsider.com...65b-480/san-francisco-painted-lady-houses.jpg

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/91df1641b...ouses-fira-santorini-greece-europe-c97wra.jpg


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## JMJimmy

If you don't mind me prattling on a bit, it's interesting to think about...

Take a theatre like




You could see Jane Doe back from France saying it's terraced (with her using the meaning that it's all different levels).  John Doe beside her interprets this new word to mean it's got a second floor, as not to look uneducated by asking the meaning.  John Doe then goes to the Globe Theatre (or similar) and points to the second floor "Such a fabulous terrace" pointing to the upper stage.





And all the sudden terrace is being spread around as a an upper stage balcony by people who don't know any better. 

Or a Frenchman trolling an Englishman with the vulgar meaning (a mound of "manure")... who knows for certain but it's fun to ponder


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## JulianStuart

Yet another example of the international architecture jargon showing differences from "lay" or popular usage. The first WRF (English) definition has both


a raised, level area of land with sharply rising sides made of stone, etc., esp. one of a series of levels rising one above another.
Architecture an open area connected to a house and serving as an outdoor living area; *patio or balcony.*


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## RM1(SS)

This is what I think of when I hear/see the word terrace:


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## RM1(SS)

JMJimmy said:


> That'd be a deck


I wouldn't call it a deck unless it was twice as deep and had room for more than a chair at one end and a kettle grill at the other.


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## JulianStuart

RM1(SS) said:


> This is what I think of when I hear/see the word terrace:


That would be definition #1 above, esp a series of levels rising ....


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## Andygc

You can always tell when you are talking to a schizophrenic: it's as if there is a glass wall between you, so the two sides of the conversation don't quite match. We seem to have a schizoid conversation here. There's a series of posts on the way English is used by American architects, and a series of posts on the use of the same words by everybody else. I'm not suggesting that anybody here is mad, but is this going anywhere useful?


JulianStuart said:


> international architecture jargon


Do we have any evidence for "international"? The words used by French, German and other architects are normally French, German, etc.


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## JulianStuart

Andygc said:


> You can always tell when you are talking to a schizophrenic: it's as if there is a glass wall between you, so the two sides of the conversation don't quite match. We seem to have a schizoid conversation here. There's a series of posts on the way English is used by American architects, and a series of posts on the use of the same words by everybody else. I'm not suggesting that anybody here is mad, but is this going anywhere useful?


 Different groups of people using words differently is a pretty common situatiion, as is the existence/development of different meanings for the same word in different fields/countries.  This is usually accepted and members learn from posts of those from other groups.  The only unusual aspect of the recent discussion is the "correct" (Getty?) versus "incorrect" (most others here) one.


Andygc said:


> Do we have any evidence for "international"? The words used by French, German and other architects are normally French, German, etc.


I was referring to the explanation proffered in #36.


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## Andygc

JulianStuart said:


> I was referring to the explanation proffered in #36.


Yes, so was I. The multiple sources don't use English. And, of course, dictionaries use multiple sources which have the merit of being English - a dictionary is not an isolated sources as this post suggests:


JMJimmy said:


> That's not what Getty does - it reviews definitions from numerous sources (not just dictionaries)


I suspect that for many words the OED uses far more sources than the Getty compilers do. They have been in the business of collecting words from the wild for perhaps a century longer.


JulianStuart said:


> The only unusual aspect of the recent discussion is the "correct" (Getty?) versus "incorrect" (most others here) one.


A fine example of the extended use of "schizoid".


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