# Urdu-Hindi: Kh (x), Gh and q -- fricative and guttural sounds



## Qureshpor

Recently we have had a discussion on the way Urdu z and f sounds are  pronounced by Hindi speakers. What are Hindi speakers' views of  pronouncing Kh (x), Gh and q sounds?


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## flyinfishjoe

I'm only familiar with middle-class urban Anglophone Hindi speakers, and based on my experiences with those kinds of people, I can say that most of them only distinctly pronounce ख़ _kha_, फ़ _fa_, and ज़ _za_. Usually क़ _qa_ and ग़ _g__a _are pronounced as क _ka_ and ग _ga_ respectively. This is my own observation; perhaps other others have a different perception.


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Recently we have had a discussion on the way Urdu z and f sounds are  pronounced by Hindi speakers. What are Hindi speakers' views of  pronouncing Kh (x), Gh and q sounds?




Pronouncing them can be done. Yet at the same time, from my perspective, doing so in all circumstances type-casts you as one of the elite members of Indian society, which
depending on your audience could be a good or bad thing. 'X' is by far the most popular to do.


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## Qureshpor

It is interesting to note that Kh (x) is relatively common but Gh and q are not. It seems logical to assume that those people who are pronouncing the voiceless Kh (x), should also be able to utter the voiced form Gh.

Here are what I think are common Kh (x), Gh and q words.

Khaan (Khan), Khud, Khaalii, (Khaanah) Kharaab, Khuun/Khuunii (Khuun-Kharaabah),  Khaandaan, Khaas, Khaalis, Khudaa, Khabar, Kharch, Khair, Khairiyyat, Khayaal, Kharbuuzah, Khufyah, Khariidnaa, Khvaahish, Khat, Khatrah, Khatarnaak, Khush, Khushii.

Ghazal, Ghaalib (Ghalib), Ghaddaar, Ghadar, Ghaban, Ghubaarah, Gham, Ghussah, Ghalat, Ghalatii, Ghariib, Ghazab, Ghaa'ib

qataar, qaabuu, qamiis, qism, qismat, qatl, qaatil, qaadir (Qadir Khan), qaanuun, qudrat, qabz, qubuul, qad, qadr, qadar, qadam, qurbaan, qasam, qaiNchii, qiimat, qiyaamat, qaid (as in 3umr-qaid), qormah, qavvaalii, qulfii, qalam, qulii.


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## eskandar

For those Urdu speakers who do not pronounce غ as in Arabic/Persian, how is more commonly pronounced: as 'g' (گ) or as 'gh' (گهـ) ? Likewise for those who do not 'properly' pronounce خ, does it become 'k' (ک) or 'kh' (کهـ) ?

If I may also ask, can anyone tell me what Hindi speakers think when they hear the 'proper' pronunciation of these consonants-- do they just recognize it as educated Urdu speech, or does it sound strange to them? I remember speaking with a young Indian-American once who thought my pronunciation of 'kharaab' as 'xaraab' and not 'kʱaraab' was due to my English accent in Hindi. (Little did she know that if anything it was my Persian accent showing through!) On the other hand I was complimented on my pronunciation of the same word by a Pakistani Muhajir.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> For those Urdu speakers who do not pronounce غ as in Arabic/Persian, how is more commonly pronounced: as 'g' (گ) or as 'gh' (گهـ) ? Likewise for those who do not 'properly' pronounce خ, does it become 'k' (ک) or 'kh' (کهـ) ?





Any Urdu speaker would pronounce خ and غ the way these consonants are pronounced in Arabic. At least this is my experience.


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## eskandar

So when you said "It is interesting to note that Kh (x) is relatively common but Gh and q are not." above, were you referring specifically to Hindi speakers?


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> So when you said "It is interesting to note that Kh (x) is relatively common but Gh and q are not." above, were you referring specifically to Hindi speakers?




Yes I was Eskandar SaaHib. Perhaps it has not been made clear but this thread's query concerns Hindi speakers' use of Kh(x), Gh and q. This thread continues from the discussions we have had about f and z usage by Hindi speakers.


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## eskandar

Oh, that's my mistake; I now see that you mentioned Hindi speakers in your initial post.


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> Oh, that's my mistake; I now see that you mentioned Hindi speakers in your initial post.





That's no problem Eskandar SaaHib. The Kh (x), Gh and q examples that I gave in a previous post are of words begining with these consonants. Of course there are many more words with these consonants occupying internal and final positions.


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## lcfatima

> If I may also ask, can anyone tell me what Hindi speakers think when they hear the 'proper' pronunciation of these consonants-- do they just recognize it as educated Urdu speech, or does it sound strange to them




I think we are not allowed to post links to youtube, right? But if you google Tariq Rahman TEDxLahore, you can watch this presentation on evolving Urdu and Hindi. At one point (around the 13th minute), Dr. Rahman says something along the lines that according to one researcher (Rizwaan Ahmed) Muslim Urdu speaking youth in Delhi will avoid pronouncing the Persio-Arabic phonemes so that their language doesn't sound marked because Urdu is associated with Muslims and in Delhi (and in India), generally speaking Muslims are associated with being of the lower classes or the poor masses, and also they use the Hindi phonemes in order to assimilate with their Hindi speaking peers.

I always thought this phenomenon of lack of Persio-Arabic phonemes, s-sh mixing and all among some Urdu heritage speakers in some parts of North India was due to lack of education in Urdu (I really only ever noticed it with people who are from very marginalized backgrounds), and not due to attempted assimilation with Hindi speakers, but that explanation makes sense, too. However, my experience is limited. I must say that I have met Urdu speakers from Indian Dakkani communities of varying class backgrounds and with the exception of their 'qaaf as xaaf' accent, their Urdu phonemic diction is very astute no matter the level of education, and no matter how non-standard other feautures of their Dakkani dialect may be. But it is an interesting phenomenon. I also wonder if the youth communities who it is suggested do this actually code switch and use Persio-Arabic phonemes at home among their own community but don't use them when in majority Hindi speaking settings, like at work and so on.


I would also like to know from a native Hindi speaker what the perception is when people maintain the Urdu phonemes, do they just think "Muslim accent"?


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## souminwé

eskandar said:


> I remember speaking with a young Indian-American once who thought my pronunciation of 'kharaab' as 'xaraab' and not 'kʱaraab' was due to my English accent in Hindi. (Little did she know that if anything it was my Persian accent showing through!) On the other hand I was complimented on my pronunciation of the same word by a Pakistani Muhajir.



It's because she's Indian-American. I once said_ xabardaar _to an Indo-Canadian girl and got told off for having "bad" Hindi : P 


> I would also like to know from a native Hindi speaker what the  perception is when people maintain the Urdu phonemes, do they just think  "Muslim accent"?



I would say it comes off as educated and classy. Maintaining the x and Gh is definitely going to get you a lot of_ aap ki zabaan kitni miiThi hai! _comments.  Q can come off "Muslim-accent-ish" if pronounced too gutturally, "Molvi-speech" as I've heard it described. Nonetheless, it's still a status marker.


I wouldn't really say there's such a thing as a Muslim "accent". It's more about word usage - if someone says "ashliilta" and they're Muslim, then they're just speaking Hindi, but if someone says "fahashi" then all of a sudden they sound more "Islamic".


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> I think we are not allowed to post links to youtube, right? But if you google Tariq Rahman TEDxLahore, you can watch this presentation on evolving Urdu and Hindi. At one point (around the 13th minute), Dr. Rahman says something along the lines that according to one researcher (Rizwaan Ahmed) Muslim Urdu speaking youth in Delhi will avoid pronouncing the Persio-Arabic phonemes so that their language doesn't sound marked because Urdu is associated with Muslims and in Delhi (and in India), generally speaking Muslims are associated with being of the lower classes or the poor masses, and also they use the Hindi phonemes in order to assimilate with their Hindi speaking peers.
> 
> 
> Here is the relevant paper on this subject by Professor Rizwan Ahmed.
> 
> http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/salsa/proceedings/2008/Ahmad_2008.pdf
> 
> I always thought this phenomenon of lack of Persio-Arabic phonemes, s-sh mixing and all among some Urdu heritage speakers in some parts of North India was due to lack of education in Urdu (I really only ever noticed it with people who are from very marginalized backgrounds), and not due to attempted assimilation with Hindi speakers, but that explanation makes sense, too. However, my experience is limited. I must say that I have met Urdu speakers from Indian Dakkani communities of varying class backgrounds and with the exception of their 'qaaf as xaaf' accent, their Urdu phonemic diction is very astute no matter the level of education, and no matter how non-standard other feautures of their Dakkani dialect may be. But it is an interesting phenomenon. I also wonder if the youth communities who it is suggested do this actually code switch and use Persio-Arabic phonemes at home among their own community but don't use them when in majority Hindi speaking settings, like at work and so on.
> 
> I would tend to accept most of your comments. Another reason for the inability of young people from Urdu speaking backgrounds  to enunciate clearly these phonemes is most likely to be the almost non-existent exposure to the Urdu script. If all or almost all that the new generation has been exposed to is Devanagri, then it would not surprise anyone if they end up saying khaan, gariib and kariib.


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## tonyspeed

lcfatima said:


> because Urdu is associated with Muslims and in Delhi (and in India), generally speaking Muslims are associated with being of the lower classes or the poor masses, and also they use the Hindi phonemes in order to assimilate with their Hindi speaking peers.



I don't buy the poor masses argument. Urdu is viewed as poetic language. In my mind it's more likely to be avoided along religious lines I would think rather than economic status lines. If anything, I can only see this being a Old Dehli phenomenon. If one is in Lucknow, I can hardly see such a response.


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## eskandar

Thanks for the Youtube recommendation Fatima sahiba, I found the video and it was very interesting. And thanks for the paper QP sahib!


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## tonyspeed

There is a Youtube video entitled : "Hindi News (Aaj Din Bhar 1 ) by Sahal Razzaaq Kureshi (Hakim) on Indian Politics etc... Jain TV". It is a news broadcast in Hindi. All the writing is in Hindi.
At minute 8:40 we hear the speaker clearly pronounce the G in gaurtalab. Sure he is musalmaan but obviously he feels no pressure to code-switch - even on Delhi tv.


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> There is a Youtube video entitled : "Hindi News (Aaj Din Bhar 1 ) by Sahal Razzaaq Kureshi (Hakim) on Indian Politics etc... Jain TV". It is a news broadcast in Hindi. All the writing is in Hindi.
> At minute 8:40 we hear the speaker clearly pronounce the G in gaurtalab. Sure he is musalmaan but obviously he feels no pressure to code-switch - even on Delhi tv.




I have heard the whole video. Sahal Razzaq Kureshi  (Quraishi?) indeed pronounces the Gh correctly in "Ghair-zamaanatii" and  "Ghaur-talab"*. In one place I thought he pronounced "kharch" instead of  "xarch" but, it could just be my perception. (He did seem to say faNs  for "phaNs"!). 

As a matter of interest, do Hindi speakers ever pronounce "qalam" as "qalam" and not "kalam"?

*Urdu speakers do use "Ghaur-talab" but more often than not, they would  say "yaad rahe kih..".


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## flyinfishjoe

To be honest, I've never heard a Hindi speaker pronounce the "q" in "qalam." It is replaced with a "k."


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