# BSC: masculine words ending in "a" (Serbian vs Croatian)



## sesperxes

Dear Members: 

I'm new in this forum, I'd like to say hello to everyone and, of course, I'd like to put my first question: it's about masculine words ending in "a".

If I'm not wrong (please correct me!),

in Croatia people say: arhiv,   biciklist,  demokrat,   fronta,  gitara, gripa, minuta,   pojava, planet,   riža, soja, turist.
In Serbia, people say: arhiva, biciklista, demokrata,  front,   gitar,   grip,   minut,   pojav,   planeta, riž,   soj,  turista.


And it's agreed by all: kolega, sluga, ustaša (the word, I mean), poglavica, vođa, and vladika.


I'd like to kwow whether this list is correct and ...which is the rule for adding or not this "a".


Velika hvala.


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## VelikiMag

sesperxes said:


> In Serbia, people say: arhiva, biciklista, demokrata,  front,   gitara,   grip,   minut,   pojava,   planeta, riža,   soja,  turista.


Underlined words aren't masculine but feminine nouns. There is also word _soj_, it is the same in Serbian and Croatian and it has different meaning from _soja_.



> And it's agreed by all: kolega, sluga, ustaša (the word, I mean), poglavica, vođa, and vladika.


Plus vojvoda, starešina, gazda, papa, hodža, muftija, paša, poslovođa, zanatlija, etc. There is also _sudija_, but I believe that Croats say _sudac_.

Words which end with -_džija_ are also masculine: šaljivdžija, siledžija, galamdžija, skeledžija, etc.



> which is the rule for adding or not this "a".


There is no rule, you simply have to know them. Only when a word ends with -_ist_, you may add "a". Also some foreign words which end with -_t_ like _demokrat(a)_, _arhitekt(a)_, _diplomat(a)_, etc.


Welcome to the forum!


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## Duya

Let me try to systematize:

1) There are only a few words which differ both in suffix *and in gender* between Serbian and Croatian, but this goes either way:

_planet _(C):_planeta_ (S), _minut_ (C):_minuta_ (S), _fronta_ (C):_front_ (S), _teritorij_ (C):_teritorija_ (S)

As far as I know, pair _arhiv:arhiva_ is used in both S and C. However, _arhiva_ means an archive in general, while _arhiv_ refers only to a public institution which keeps documents: _državni arhiv, arhiv grada_.

2) there are words which are both masculine, but the suffix and declension differs. For words on -_ist_, Serbian uses -_ista_ form and "mixed" declension (feminine in singular, masculine in plural). For other words (usually foreign words on -_ta_), it uses feminine declension throughout:

_fašista:fašiste_(GEN), pl. _fašisti_
_biciklista:bicikliste_(GEN), pl. _biciklisti_
_arhitekta:arhitekte_(GEN), pl. _arhitekte_
_demokrata:demokrate_(GEN), pl. _demokrate_

and Croatian uses -∅ form and "masculine" declension throughout:

_fašist:fašista_(GEN), pl. _fašisti_
_biciklist:biciklista_(GEN), pl. _biciklisti_
_arhitekt:arhitekta_(GEN), pl. _arhitekti_
_demokrat:demokrata_(GEN), pl. _demokrati_

3) Finally, there are masculine words which have -a suffix and feminine declension in both languages. Like VelikiMag said, those are _vojvoda, starešina, gazda, papa, hodža, muftija, paša, poslovođa, zanatlija, šaljivdžija, siledžija, galamdžija_. 

3b) there are few words that denote a (potentially male) person and end in -_a_, but are actually feminine (the difference from masculine can only be sensed through noun-verb/adjective agreement): _On je velik*a pijanica/kukavica*_. I would also classify _skitnica_ there, but HJP says it's masculine.


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## Gnoj

Duya said:


> As far as I know, pair _arhiv:arhiva_ is used in both S and C. However, _arhiva_ means an archive in general, while _arhiv_ refers only to a public institution which keeps documents: _državni arhiv, arhiv grada_.


That's what I know as well, same thing in my language. "Arhiv" is something like "archivatory".


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## sesperxes

Thanks for your accuracy!


As Duya said "2) there are words which are both masculine, but the suffix and declension differs. For words on -_ist_, Serbian uses -_ista_ form and "mixed" declension (feminine in singular, masculine in plural). For other words (usually foreign words on -_ta_), it uses feminine declension throughout:

Therefore, the constructions would be these:
_
Ovaj biciklista je bio moj prijatelj (SRB) and Ovaj biciklist je bio moj prijatelj (HR)

Ku_ća bicikliste je daleko (SRB) and Kuća biciklista je daleko (HR)
_
But:

Ovi divni arhitekte/ ove divne arhitekte su iz Sarajeva (they are men) (SRB)
Ovi divni arhitekti su iz Sarajeva (always men)

Moji kolege nemaju _žena/moje kolege nemaju žena (YU)_


Thanks again

_


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## Duya

sesperxes said:


> But:
> 
> Ovi divni arhitekte/ ove divne arhitekte su iz Sarajeva (they are men) (SRB)
> Ovi divni arhitekti su iz Sarajeva (always men)
> 
> Moji kolege nemaju žena/moje kolege nemaju žena (YU)_
> _



Not so fast, the plural is another issue .

The expressions marked red do not work, at least not for me. In the plural, the agreement tends to be by grammatical gender, not by natural gender. Thus, it's always _moje kolege_, _ove divne arhitekte_ (_ovi divni arhitekti_ in Croatian.).

However, I've just googled a short article on the issue, granted, from 1953, where the autor notices the trend to use natural gender agreement (_moji kolege, ovi barabe_). However, I would say that the trend hasn't taken on. I wouldn't say that _moji kolege_ is ungrammatical, but unusual yes. Maybe some other foreros have a different opinion.


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## Brainiac

_Ovi divni arhitekti_ in Serbian too, I would say, I've heard fairly often  It doesn't mean only men, it shows profession. 
(If you want only women, there is a joke - _arhitetke_ )

_Moje kolege nemaju žen*e *_is what I use. _Nemaju žen*a*_, to me,sounds like you talk about collective nouns... it sounds like they can have 4 wives or a personal harem, like Muslims once or what .


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## Duya

Brainiac said:


> _Ovi divni arhitekti_ in Serbian too, I would say, I've heard fairly often



_Arhitekt_ and _demokrat_ are recognized in Serbian standard as well, but are less common.


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## DenisBiH

Our architects are far too busy designing insane bridges (Zvrk ćuprija) to deal with such matters as marriage. 

Getting back on topic:


> The expressions marked red do not work, at least not for me. In the  plural, the agreement tends to be by grammatical gender, not by natural  gender. Thus, it's always _moje kolege_, _ove divne arhitekte_ (_ovi divni arhitekti_ in Croatian.).



I use the same agreement as you Duya, but is this (_moje kolege_) agreement by grammatical gender? The grammatical gender of _kolega _is masculine, isn't it?



> However, I've just googled a short article on the issue, granted, from 1953, where the autor notices the trend to use natural gender agreement (_moji kolege, ovi barabe_). However, I would say that the trend hasn't taken on. I wouldn't say that _moji kolege_ is ungrammatical, but unusual yes. Maybe some other foreros have a different opinion.



I'm with Duya here. However, I've never actually checked what the grammar books say and sometimes I find myself wondering whether agreement such as _moje kolege_ is grammatical or not. The entry for kolega in HJP would seem to indicate that both is considered grammatical, at least in standard Croatian:



> 1.     drug po učenju ili zanimanju, onaj koji ide s kim u školu, na fakultet ili zajedno radi posao iste struke [moj kolega; *moje kolege; moji kolege su došli; moje kolege su došle*]; suradnik


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## Duya

I'm really not sure which grammatical gender is _kolege_. But, since we will agree that _moje gazde/starješine/poslovođe/barabe su rekle_ all work, it must be feminine, isn't it? That makes this class being transgender .

However, the more I think about it (unhealthy...  ), the version with _Moji ... su rekli_ works as well, although not so well. So I'll retract my previous statement a bit.

Googling for "moji kolege" does reveal mostly Croatian sites, with an emphasis on Jadranka Kosor, who seems to use the phrase a lot.


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## Duya

P.S. I really like this kind of questions, which makes even us natives think and consciously reanalyze our own language. Way to go sesperxes!


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## Brainiac

Oh Denis is back, I was afraid that you got married 

Another ending -(li)ija is masculine too, like Sarajlija. This one understands art  and ... he is transgender


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## VelikiMag

Masculine plural of such words like _kolega_ doesn't work for me. Take demonstratives for instance. _Ti/ovi/oni kolege_ sounds terribly wrong. Definite adjectives also, e.g. _dobri i pošteni kolege_. With verbs it maybe sounds a bit better, but still not good enough. It might be logical, but language doesn't always follow the logic. Furthermore, _budala_ is a feminine noun with a regular declension, but when it denotes a male, people sometimes use a masculine verb form, like _budala je rekao_. Adjectives and pronouns again don't work, only verbs. And it still doesn't sound correct.


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## sesperxes

Duya said:


> P.S. I really like this kind of questions, which makes even us natives think and consciously reanalyze our own language. Way to go sesperxes!


I didn't imagine my question would lead to such a debate! But it's good, ins't it? It means that your language is ALIVE!


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