# ακόμα και



## goonhilly

The context for the use of "ακόμα και" in the sentence below is that a couple want to leave a club as they have to get up early the next day for a journey.

"Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε μερικά μέρη ακόμα και θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς "
This is translated in the helpful translation in the support text book as:

"I know you have several other places to go tomorrow  and you'll have to get up early.

I got as far as saying either (1) or (2) :

(1)-I know you have to go tomorrow to a few places still and you have to get up early--

I did manage to find an alternative use of ακὀμα on Glosbe --

"σε μερικά ακόμα μέρη.--a few other places"

So I could see that ακόμα  can also mean other but that is perhaps clearer as the "ακόμα"  is not next to " και" 

but this alternative in Glosbe was in a list of the more frequent use of ακόμα with και in the translations in many other examples and this above is the only one I could find as most other examples illustrated were for even or including.

I know that much is made of word order but if I hadn't looked at the text book translation I would have got perhaps also this
(2)I know you even have to go tomorrow to a few places and you have to get up early

I know that I have effectively answered my own question to some extent but it is sometimes tricky when such a translation comes up and it was only a few chapters earlier in the same text book that much was made of the more common use of ακόμα και.

In other words separation the position of ακόμα was also even in Glosbe a one of out of perhaps over 50 examples


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## Acestor

Hi, Goonhilly
My translation would be:
I know that you have to go to a few *more *places tomorrow…


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## Perseas

"Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε μερικά μέρη ακόμα και θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς "

"ακόμη" here means "in addition". "more" also renders this meaning. It is not "ακόμα και".


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## velisarius

There is often a comma before _ακόμα και..., _which makes it easier to understand that the two words are to be taken together. In your example sentence, a comma would have helped:

_Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε* μερικά μέρη ακόμα*, και θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς.

Πρέπει να πάτε εκεί, *ακόμα και *αν δεν γούσταρετε.
'Ολοι τον μισούν, *ακόμα και* η μάνα του.
_
No comma here:
_Θα πούλαγαν *ακόμα και* τη μάνα τους...
_


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## ioanell

goonhilly said:


> "Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε μερικά μέρη ακόμα και θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς "



goonhilli, please don’t get confused. In "Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε μερικά μέρη ακόμα και θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς" there are two independent sentences. 1st: “Ξέρω ότι έχετε να πάτε αύριο σε μερικά μέρη ακόμα” and 2nd:      “θα πρέπει να σηκωθείτε νωρίς”. These two sentences are syntactically equivalent and connected with the coordinating copulative conjunction “και”. “ακόμα” and “και” have no connection at all between them.

The translation made by Acestor seems very good, as “ακόμα” here functions as a quantitative adverb meaning “more”, “in addition”.



velisarius said:


> There is often a comma before _ακόμα και..., _which makes it easier to understand that the two words are to be taken together. In your example sentence, a comma would have helped:



Velisarius, it is certain that all the “ακόμα και” are not the same case everywhere.

So, in goonhilli’s example sentence the comma is not needed because here we have two equal independent sentences which are connected to each other with the coordinating copulative conjunction “και” (=and). “ακόμα” is part of the 1st sentence/clause and has no connection at all with “και” as regards to the meaning.

in your complex sentence “Πρέπει να πάτε εκεί, *ακόμα και* αν δεν γουστάρετε.” (You must go there, even though you don’t like to) there is a main clause ““Πρέπει να πάτε εκεί” and a subordinate clause “ακόμα και αν δεν γουστάρετε” introduced by the subordinating concession conjunction “ακόμα και αν” (=even though). In this case a comma is needed before “ακόμα και αν” to distinguish the main clause from the subordinate adverbial clause that follows.

In your sentence “'Ολοι τον μισούν, *ακόμα και* η μάνα του.” (=Everyone hates him, even his mother” there is only a main clause. “ακόμα και ” in the phrase “ακόμα και η μάνα του” is not a conjunction, but an intensifying adverb / intensifier. Its role is to emphasize the fact that he’s hated by everyone. And in this case a comma is needed before “ακόμα και” to distinguish the main clause from the intensifying adverbial phrase “ακόμα και η μάνα του”.

In your sentence “Θα πούλαγαν *ακόμα και* τη μάνα τους…” (They would sell even their mother…” no comma is needed, because the intensifier “ακόμα και” defines the object “τη μάνα τους” and as it is known we don’t separate the verb from its predicate with a comma (_unless a whole clause or phrase, enclosed between two commas, steps in for some special narrative reason and makes this separation_).


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## Perseas

ioanell said:


> Velisarius, it is certain that all the “ακόμα και” are not the same case everywhere.
> 
> So, in goonhilli’s example sentence the comma is not needed because here we have two equal independent sentences which are connected to each other with the coordinating copulative conjunction “και” (=and).


The general rule is indeed that clauses that are linked with the coordinating copulative conjunction "και" are not separated by comma. But there are also exceptions, e.g. when "και" doesn't link the meanings in the same way or "και" has an adverbial meaning. About goonhilly's sentence, I believe that this is the case.
Here are two examples (from "Οδηγός της Ν.Γ." by Άννα Ιορδανίδου) :
_- Κάνε να είναι αντάρτες αυτοί και όχι μοναρχικοί*, και* θα σου ανάβω ένα κερί κάθε Κυριακή.
- Σκέφτηκα πως θα ήταν φρόνιμο ν' αρχίσω από την ντουλάπα*, και* πραγματικά εκεί ήταν το κουτί με τους κύβους._


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## goonhilly

Thank you very much for the helpful responses. Notwithstanding these however, it is clear to me at least, that it would be time well spent to spend a short time relearning some of the “old” English grammar, before embarking on a new language. From memory I think I learned some of this stuff about subordinate clauses over 50 years ago! (I think however, that the expression, coordinating copulative conjunction, may have been a step too far for GCE O level English but at least I’ve looked up what it means! This sentence contains two independent statements or two statements of equal rank or importance. The *conjunction* that joins together two clauses of equal rank is called a *coordinating conjunction*. ... (Here the *coordinating conjunction* _and_ connects two nouns.) He worked diligently and patiently.  )

What you have said above makes sense and highlights/illuminates the issue for me.

Perversely in the very next chapter there was another sentence that did not contain any commas and the translation was given this time as “more”. In fact when I re-listened to the audio of the Greek chapter the speaker did pause after saying the word “ακόμα’’, before saying και.

That is one of the troubles when attempting to learn a foreign language from a textbook. It would be more helpful if they had highlighted some of these issues that in my opinion are very important. A simple note would have been very helpful rather than the other notes that they insert which are occasionally repetitive. Whoever designs these textbooks completely overlooks that they are sold as courses for individuals without tutors or teachers.

Sadly it is pointless complaining to an organisation such as Linguaphone. The sole motivation appears to be endeavouring to flog too many languages without a proper support network.

Having said that I have yet to see a decent language textbook that would explain such intricacies and I know that is the wrong word but it wouldn’t have been expecting too much to explain the difference when promoting a phrase to highlight the issue of the use of the comma or alternatively emphasise and highlight how the expression and phrases should be used accordingly. (“My private rant”)

By the way I did not miss out any comma as I cut and pasted from the textbook. I recently thought that with the use of 'scan and translate' apps on my mobile I could scan in some Greek text quickly to illustrate the point without making mistakes in my copy-typing attempts.
I have also been able to make flip cards automatically given the complete absence of flip card support with this course. Not many courses other than over simplified apps use flip cards to learn the fairly vast vocab that is needed even at a basic level. When you take learning at school one forgets that I learnt French over 5 years with a young fairly retentive brain  I still remember some French words. Learning Greek at an older age requires some hard slog with support flip card apps that most courses neglect. I know that Greekpod does but it is too expensive to use their methods.


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## larshgf

goonhilly said:


> Notwithstanding these however, it is clear to me at least, that it would be time well spent to spend a short time relearning some of the “old” English grammar, before embarking on a new language.


I did exactly the same thing a few years ago repeating the old (danish) grammar stuff. A lot of good material can be found on the internet.



goonhilly said:


> That is one of the troubles when attempting to learn a foreign language from a textbook. It would be more helpful if they had highlighted some of these issues that in my opinion are very important. A simple note would have been very helpful rather than the other notes that they insert which are occasionally repetitive. Whoever designs these textbooks completely overlooks that they are sold as courses for individuals without tutors or teachers.


I use a course in Modern Greek called "επικοινωνήστε ελληνικά" in 3 volumens. It is all in Greek language but it is in my opinion a very fine course highlighting in tables and boxes issues that often gives the foreign student (more) gray hairs. They are not cheap but they are good!   

Good luck with your Greek studies!


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