# mi è morto



## 1V4N0

In Italian it's fairly common to use the personal pronouns "mi", "ti", "gli" ("to me/you/him") with verbs one shouldn't use it with, to mean that something has affected us personally. As in "mia moglie è stata male, e poi mi è morta", which does not convey quite the same meaning as "è morta" without "mi".

Is this translatable at all?

Thanks.


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## Paulfromitaly

1V4N0 said:


> e poi mi è morta"


E cosa vorrebbe dire di diverso da " e poi è morta"?


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## 1V4N0

It indicates that one feels that more personally. As in the famous Mike Bongiorno quote "signora Longaro, mi è caduta sull'uccello". Apart from the stupid unwanted pun, this means that he was somehow saddened by her mistake. Or for example I could say to a musician, "non sbagliarmi proprio questa canzone", which sounds more heartfelt than just "non sbagliare".
It's just a nuance, but it's unmistakable.


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## AlabamaBoy

Colloquially, at least in AmE, people say "she died on me." I wouldn't use that phrase even though I lived in Alabama for 25 years. I think it is not very respectful.


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## 1V4N0

You say it's not very respectful because it implies some guilt on part of the person who died?


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## AlabamaBoy

Yes, it almost blames the person who died.


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## 1V4N0

Then that's not the same thing as in Italian. To us it just stresses the feelings of that person.


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## TheCrociato91

AlabamaBoy said:


> died on me


I thought "die on someone" was used to refer to machines when they stop working.


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## AlabamaBoy

TheCrociato91 said:


> I thought "die on someone" was used to refer to machines when they stop working.


Yes, you could say "My car/My mother/My dog died on me." I would probably use the phrase about a car, but as I said earlier, it seems disrespectful to me to use on a family pet or a person.



1V4N0 said:


> Then that's not the same thing as in Italian. To us it just stresses the feelings of that person.


My very dear mother died.
My mother's death has been hard on me.


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## london calling

AlabamaBoy said:


> Colloquially, at least in AmE, people say "she died on me." I wouldn't use that phrase even though I lived in Alabama for 25 years. I think it is not very respectful.


Agreed. Same in BE.


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## TheCrociato91

What about "My wife has slipped away from me after a long illness"?


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## london calling

TheCrociato91 said:


> What about "My wife has slipped away from me after a long illness"?


I have to be honest: I'm cringing. I find that terribly twee (stucchevole). _I lost my husband after a long illness_ is what I say (i'm a widow).


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## HalfTaff

london calling said:


> I have to be honest: I'm cringing.



Isn't that a little too dismissive, particularly of a contribution by a non-native English speaker? It's surely possible to propose an alternative translation slightly more gently.


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## jaws965

I think "I lost" expresses the Italian meaning, where the main word is "I"


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## 1V4N0

*jaws965 *yours seems to be the best approximation. Ty


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## Archilochus

You might hear: "I lost my wife and it killed me" [ = it devastated me.]


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## london calling

HalfTaff said:


> Isn't that a little too dismissive, particularly of a contribution by a non-native English speaker? It's surely possible to propose an alternative translation slightly more gently.


I'm not one for going by halves. I say what I think.


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## pebblespebbles

Hi, I think the best translation is " my dear wife is dead" . The use of the verb "morire" as it was "riflessivo" it's not standard Italian. It stresses the personal involvement in the action that the verb describes, as you wrote already. As for other verbs used as they were "riflessivi"  when they are not, the translation can vary, I suppose, depending on the context.


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## Pietruzzo

pebblespebbles said:


> The use of the verb "morire" as it was "riflessivo" it's not standard Italian.


 In una frase come "mi è morto il nonno" non si può parlare di forma riflessiva in quanto non c'è concordanza fra soggetto(il nonno) e pronome (mi). Si tratta invece di un "dativo di interesse" che è tranquillamente "standard Italian", as far as I can tell.


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## 1V4N0

Bravo Pietruzzo, "dativo di interesse" è l'espressione corretta.


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## johngiovanni

Very interesting, culturally and linguistically.  I spent half of my weekly Italian lesson discussing this little expression.
I also came across "dativo etico": dativo etico in "Enciclopedia dell'Italiano"
My Italian teacher tells me it is a form often used when one's pet animals die.  "Quando mi è morto il cane ho pianto per un mese intero".
It's not so difficult to understand, but it seems difficult to translate without a circumlocution, so "I lost..." or "My dear... is dead" would appear to be the way to go.
Without going too far, "something of me died".


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## 1V4N0

Well, "mi è morto il gatto" is more or less just another way of saying "è morto il mio gatto", which is grammatically correct but sounds very forced and unnatural. You can use this "mi" it in various contexts, like I don't know, "_mi_ è venuto fuori con questa idea" ("he came out with this idea"), "non diventar_mi_ religioso", and so on and so on. I'm starting to think there is no real translation in English.


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## You little ripper!

1V4N0 said:


> Well, "mi è morto il gatto" is more or less just another way of saying "è morto il mio gatto", which is grammatically correct but sounds very forced and unnatural. You can use this "mi" it in various contexts, like I don't know, "_mi_ è venuto fuori con questa idea" ("he came out with this idea"), "non diventar_mi_ religioso", and so on and so on. I'm starting to think there is no real translation in English.


You could translate '_mi_ è venuto fuori con questa idea' with _he sprung/dropped this idea on me _and 'non diventar_mi_ religioso' with _don't go all religious on me, _so we do use use that construction in English. Whether it works in every case is a different story, however.


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## london calling

You little ripper! said:


> You could translate '_mi_ è venuto fuori con questa idea' with _he sprung/dropped this idea on me _and 'non diventar_mi_ religioso' with _don't go all religious on me, _so we do use use that construction in English. Whether it works in every case is a different story, however.


Yes, Bill mentioned that above:



AlabamaBoy said:


> Yes, you could say "My car/My mother/My dog died on me." I would probably use the phrase about a car, but as I said earlier, it seems disrespectful to me to use on a family pet or a person.
> 
> My very dear mother died.
> My mother's death has been hard on me.






pebblespebbles said:


> Hi, I think the best translation is " my dear wife is dead" .


I can  imagine a much older person saying/writing that. I certainly wouldn't say "My dear husband has died/is dead".

By the way 'has died' is the translation of 'è morto' (present perfect) as it used here. _Is dead_ = 'è morto' (verb + adjective).


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## pebblespebbles

To Pietruzzo: you are completely right. A sentece like " mi e' mortala moglie", it is absolutely NOT a " forma riflessiva", it has nothing to do with the form "morirsi" (very poetic form).
To londoncalling : yes, you are right , the translation of " mia moglie e' morta" is " my wife died or has died" and not " my wife is dead". 
I' m going to delete my mistakes.
To start again thinking about Italian grammar after few years off it, it may be good for the brain health, but not for self-esteem


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## pebblespebbles

Hi, thinking againg about the possibility of a better translation for a sentece like " mi e' morta la moglie", I thought about the usual meaning in English of the Italian "mi"   used as "complemento di termine" that is "to me". (I know "dativo etico" sounds nicer and probably more correct, but this is a "complento di termine" too because it answers the question "to who did this happen?" "It happend to _*mi *_"). 

What's about :
" The wife of mine died"
or " My wife died, to me" (that is the real meaning)
 or
"Me  wife died".?
 I know the last form is not correct but I heard  something like that already...maybe in the countryside.


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## Einstein

pebblespebbles said:


> "Me wife died".?


Here "me" is a regional pronunciation of "my"; it doesn't mean "me".


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## london calling

pebblespebbles said:


> What's *What* about :
> " The wife of mine died"
> " My wife died, to me"
> "Me  wife died".?
> I know the last form is not correct but I heard  something like that already...maybe in the countryside.



"Me wife died". Very common in London, which is not what I would call the countryside.

As Einstein says, however, it means 'my' so no, it doesn't work here unless you were trying to translate 'bad' Italian in 'bad' English.


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## pebblespebbles

Einstein said:


> Here "me" is a regional pronunciation of "my"; it doesn't mean "me".


Hi, I know it means "my". Why, then, it is used instead of "my". I was hoping it had a meaning closer to the Italian sentence..


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## johngiovanni

Hi Pebbles.  I don't think it has anything to do with the Italian expression "mi è morto".  "Me" instead of "my" is more of a pronunciation issue and related to dialect, as Einstein said.
See 'Me' instead of 'my' in British English [me mate; me burger; me dog]


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## TheCrociato91

It is just the way some people pronounce it in their dialect (just like some British people pronounce "saw" with an _r_ at the end). If you want to find out more about it you should open a thread in the EO forum (if there aren't already other threads discussing the same topic, of course)

_Cross-posted_


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## london calling

TheCrociato91 said:


> It is just the way some people pronounce it in their dialect (just like some British people pronounce "saw" with an _r_ at the end). If you want to find out more about it you should open a thread in the EO forum (if there aren't already other threads discussing the same topic, of course)


'Me' instead of 'my' in British English [me mate; me burger; me dog]


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## Lorena1970

jaws965 said:


> I think "I lost" expresses the Italian meaning, where the main word is "I"



The best and more close, no doubt.


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## pebblespebbles

Thanks london calling, johngiovanni, and TherCrociato9. I'm fine with the "me-my" , I don't need a new thread!


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