# Orange  juice (pronunciation)



## akelas

Hello,

Since the word "orange" ends with a dʒ sound /ˈɒrɪndʒ/ and the word "juice" starts with the same dʒ sound /ˈdʒuːs/, should I link the two words together in one single dʒ sound?
Orange juice: ˈɒrɪndʒ + ˈdʒuːs= *ˈɒrɪndʒuːs*

Sorry for being so annoyingly detailed and specific (persnickety?) but I really want to nail this pronunciation*.*

Thanks in advance*.*


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## The Newt

They're pronounced as separate sounds with a distinct pause, not run together.


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## akelas

Ok, thanks..
But if you pronounced it fast wouldn't you link it a little bit?


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## Bevj

I agree with the Newt.  Even speaking quickly, I would not say 'oranjuice'.  The pause between the words is very slight, but it exists.


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## The Newt

akelas said:


> Ok, thanks..
> But if you pronounced it fast wouldn't you link it a little bit?



No. But see this earlier thread for a longer discussion:

orange juice - elision


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## akelas

Ok, I'm convinced. Two natives telling me there's no link should be enough.


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## duvija

akelas said:


> Ok, I'm convinced. Two natives telling me there's no link should be enough.



Not really. Most of the times, natives don't really know how they speak. Speaking is automatic. And in 'orange juice', yes, they make those two words into one. At least in the States.


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## Bevj

duvija said:


> Not really. Most of the times, natives don't really know how they speak. Speaking is automatic. And in 'orange juice', yes, they make those two words into one. At least in the States.


The Newt doesn't agree.  
But yes, we speak in such an automatic way that it's difficult to analyse how we do say a certain phrase.


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## duvija

We have to make a distinction between slow speech and regular/fast speech. I've just listened to a youtube (not allowed to include the link here, but you can find it with no problem as "orange juice pronunciation') where a woman speaks at such an unnaturally slow pace, - for teaching pronunciation, of course - you can hear the two words. Not relevant. We need it included in a full sentence and at a normal rate of speech. I'll keep on looking.

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duvija said:


> We have to make a distinction between slow speech and regular/fast speech. I've just listened to a youtube (not allowed to include the link here, but you can find it with no problem as "orange juice pronunciation') where a woman speaks at such an unnaturally slow pace, - for teaching pronunciation, of course - you can hear the two words. Not relevant. We need it included in a full sentence and at a normal rate of speech. I'll keep on looking.



OK. Found a "*Fast Speech | How To Sound Like A Native English Speaker". *


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## akelas

Now that I think, my post was irrelevant. It's  as if an english  speaker studying spanish posted a Thread based on wether we spaniards when in a bar ask :
 "Dame un zumo de naranja " or in a faster speech " Damun' zumonaranja" (skiping the final e of dame, and running together Zumonaranja, which is quite common)

What can I say....Me and my pronunciation conundrums.


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## elroy

Bevj said:


> The Newt doesn't agree.


 I don't agree either.  I just said it to myself really fast and no matter how fast I said it, I still pronounced separate sounds.


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## anahiseri

I want to add my 2 cents, just for the fun of it. 
I think when you speak fast and the two words run together, it's perhaps not really  orange-juice, but
oran -juice   rather than   orange - uice


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## elroy

anahiseri said:


> I think when you speak fast and the two words run together, it's perhaps not really orange-juice, but
> oran -juice rather than orange - uice


 Hypothetically, perhaps.  But that doesn't occur in real native speech, to my knowledge.


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## anahiseri

Sorry, Elroy, what do you mean?


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## elroy

I mean that native speakers produce two distinct "j" sounds, even when they speak fast.


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## anahiseri

Thanks, Elroy. Anyway, I didn't mean to say  that native speakers never pronounce the two "j" sounds, but that in case there is a slight elision, it's rather the first j that disappears instead of the second. 
Maybe some more natives can give their opinion . . .


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## elroy

Well, it's hypothetical, as I said, because neither sound actually gets dropped in real native speech, as all the native speakers in this thread have said so far.


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## anahiseri

OK, I see.


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## akelas

You need to consider too the phenomenon of elision, which in this case doesn't  apply. Seems not all similar sound combinations can be linked, as The Newt member pointed out a few post before. Check it out, it is nearly at the beginning.


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## horsewishr

I've heard people run the two words together and say "ornjoos."  But it's pretty uncommon where I live and, personally, I think it sounds horribly lazy. Some people never speak clearly, no matter what they're saying.  Those same people who say ornjoos probably pronounce millions of other things incorrectly, too.


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## sound shift

The voiced palato-alveolar affricate [dʒ] does not occur in Spanish, but it does in English, even in word-final position, which can cause problems for Spanish-speaking students of English. Everyone I know produces [dʒ] at the end of "orange" and at the start of "juice".


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## duvija

sound shift said:


> The voiced palato-alveolar affricate [dʒ] does not occur in Spanish, but it does in English, even in word-final position, which can cause problems for Spanish-speaking students of English. Everyone I know produces [dʒ] at the end of "orange" and at the start of "juice".



It does occur (in Uruguay, at least. Lots of literature on the subject). In phrase initial position, it was the only sound for 'y' or 'll'. If you ask '¿Quién puede ir a comprar pan?, and I volunteer, I'd answer [dʒo]. And for the 'mate' I buy ['dʒerba]. A different pattern started in Buenos Aires and now moved into Montevideo (I'm not going to talk about the whole country cuz I don't fight with local pronunciations), making it intervocalically sound as the unvoiced [ʃ]. And here's the problem: it should become an affricate in phrase initial, but I had a fight with a great linguist (Harris)  a few times in my life because he claimed it becomes a [ç], yet I can't hear it. The affrication is basically lost and it keeps on being a ʃ, even in phrase initial. It could mean that it can't become the corresponding affricate [ç] because that sound is already taken by the spelling 'ch', Because I'm old, when I go to Uruguay (a couple of months a year) I still speak like the old people. The younger generations don't have the voiced variant. Still, that makes me a decent candidate for recognizing a [dʒ] when I hear one. ( It's like porn. I don't know how to describe but I recognize it when I see it )

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horsewishr said:


> I've heard people run the two words together and say "ornjoos."  But it's pretty uncommon where I live and, personally, I think it sounds horribly lazy. Some people never speak clearly, no matter what they're saying.  Those same people who say ornjoos probably pronounce millions of other things incorrectly, too.



C'mon! incorrect pronunciations? people pronounce, that's it. There is no moral value to a particular pronunciation.


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## horsewishr

duvija said:


> C'mon! incorrect pronunciations? people pronounce, that's it. There is no moral value to a particular pronunciation.


It's not a question of moral value. People do MISprounounce words all the time. There is a standard for pronunciation, and there are people who pronounce words incorrectly or who simply don't speak clearly.  We all know people who are hard to understand because they mumble.  "Ornjoos" is not a correct pronunciation in any dialect (that I'm aware of).


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## duvija

horsewishr said:


> It's not a question of moral value. People do MISprounounce words all the time. There is a standard for pronunciation, and there are people who pronounce words incorrectly or who simply don't speak clearly.  We all know people who are hard to understand because they mumble.  "Ornjoos" is not a correct pronunciation in any dialect (that I'm aware of).



You're close by. Come visit Chicago anytime and listen to the pronunciation around here.


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## Dosamuno

The Newt said:


> They're pronounced as separate sounds with a distinct pause, not run together.





What does orange juice mean? definition, meaning and audio pronunciation (Free English Language Dictionary)

This is the standard pronunciation.
It's as The Newt and others have observed, separate sounds.
People in different parts of the U.S. or the UK or anywhere else may pronounce it differently.
But the_ standard pronunciation _is with separate sounds and a distinct pause.
When I taught English as a second language, this is the pronunciation I would have wanted my students to learn.


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## duvija

Dosamuno said:


> What does orange juice mean? definition, meaning and audio pronunciation (Free English Language Dictionary)
> 
> Again, those are the words said in isolation. The question is what happens in normal to fast speech, mid-sentence, etc.


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## Dosamuno

" The question is what happens in normal to fast speech, mid-sentence, etc."

No.  
Akelas' question is "Since the word "orange" ends with a dʒ sound /ˈɒrɪndʒ/ and the word "juice" starts with the same dʒ sound /ˈdʒuːs/, should I link the two words together in one single dʒ sound?"
Akelas is learning English and I assume he wants to learn the _standard pronunciation_.
An English teacher would teach him the pronunciation that The Newt and others have described and that the recording demonstrates.


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## horsewishr

duvija said:


> You're close by. Come visit Chicago anytime and listen to the pronunciation around here.


I'd like to--but I have moral objections, lol.
Seriously, I lived in Chicago for 5 years.  Maybe that's why I remember having heard it, and also why I now believe it's not common.  I'll make a point to listen for it next time I'm there.


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## pachanga7

I agree with the other native speakers here—it would be weird to drop the two j sounds altogether.  

However, I notice that when I say it really fast, the first “j” can either become unvoiced as “ch” or even an “s” sound. In the latter case the “n” sound gets more play.


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## ankurgargwokie

When the first word ends with and the second word begins with the same or similar consonant sound, it geminates. This causes the speaker to hold the sound for a long period, before releasing it. The exception to this is j(/ʤ/) sound and ch(/ʧ/) sound. The best example of this is orange juice. Do not hold the sound, produce it twice just like it sounds, orange juice.


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## gengo

elroy said:


> I mean that native speakers produce two distinct "j" sounds, even when they speak fast.



I agree.  Always two J sounds.

However, there is a compression that often occurs in the word orange.  The standard pronunciation is two syllables (or-anj), but many people, especially when speaking fast, say it as one syllable:  ornj.  And I think that is especially true in the word combination "orange juice."  That is, when I speak at normal speed (not worrying about pronunciation), I pronounce that combination as just two syllables:  ornj jus.  However, when I refer to the fruit, I sometimes use two syllables and sometimes one.


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## Rocko!

Este hilo es realmente complicado.
La única forma de comprender a fondo a los nativos del inglés cuando aseguran firmemente que pronuncian SIEMPRE el final de _orange _y el inicio de _juice, _en "orange juice", es con una similar en español:
Salud dame Vs. Salúdame: siempre, siempre, siempre, dos D para "salud dame", aunque sea en realidad un "salú dame"


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## Nomenclature

I'm going to respectfully disagree with a lot of the comments here. I think that speaking fast, it doesn't sound weird to me with one j. In fact, I've probably said like that.


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## Nomenclature

Rocko! said:


> Este hilo es realmente complicado.
> La única forma de comprender a fondo a los nativos del inglés cuando aseguran firmemente que pronuncian SIEMPRE el final de _orange _y el inicio de _juice, _en "orange juice", es con una similar en español:
> Salud dame Vs. Salúdame: siempre, siempre, siempre, dos D para "salud dame", aunque sea en realidad un "salú dame"


Quizás en una realización de la primera agrupación de palabras la sílaba tónica podría tener una d aproximada y después la sílaba siguiente una d. Mientras que una realización de la segunda palabra la sílaba tónica tendría solo el "lu" y la siguiente una d aproximada.


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## gengo

Nomenclature said:


> I think that speaking fast, it doesn't sound weird to me with one j. In fact, I've probably said like that.



So you think that you would say "oranjus"?  To me, that sounds more like "oranges" than "orange juice."  I have never, ever heard anyone pronounce the words that way.


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## User With No Name

gengo said:


> To me, that sounds more like "oranges" than "orange juice." I have never, ever heard anyone pronounce the words that way.


I have to agree.

What I would expect to happen in rapid, careless speech would be for the second vowel in "orange" to disappear: "ornge juice." (Sorry, I don't do IPA.)
But not "oranjus."


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## Nomenclature

I understand where you guys are coming from, but in a sentence "Would you like some orange juice?" the words "orange juice" , with a particular pronunciation, could have a voiced palatal fricative as the "hard j" sound  (Kind of like how the "ll" is pronounced by people from Medellín; maybe I'm other thinking this ). If it's a voiced palatal affricate (e.g. conLLevar, with a Paisa accent); the pronunciation that everyone is thinking of, then I would write that in a casual phonetic transcription as "orinj joos". But the fricative for me is just one j in our casual transcription system since the air is never completely obstructed in one moment. (My knowledge of phonetics is limited so there might be errors in what I describe)


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## FromPA

duvija said:


> Not really. Most of the times, natives don't really know how they speak. Speaking is automatic. And in 'orange juice', yes, they make those two words into one. At least in the States.


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