# Can't believe I forgot how to say



## pomme_pomme

Mina-san konichiwa,

Could anyone translate the phrase below for me please? I apologize for not asking in Japanese or even trying to translate the phrase myself, but my knowledge of the language is intermittent at best. I haven't had any time to study it since last summer, so I've probably forgotten more than I've learnt! I do have an idea of how the sentence would go, but my attempt is embarrassingly amature so I thought best not to include it.

"I can't believe I forgot how to say "don't worry about doing the translation"!"

I know the basic components of the sentence and the structure of japanese  speech, it's just a matter of not being able to fit them all together properly. 

Arigatou gozaimasu!


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## Morrow

pomme_pomme said:


> "I can't believe I forgot how to say "don't worry about doing the translation"!



Hi, pomme_pomme

Do you need "how"? 

If it is "I can't believe I *forgot to say* "don't worry about doing the translation,"  then it will not be difficult to put into its Japanese counterpart.  

Or if it is "I can't believe I forgot how to *spell my name*," then it will be no less difficult.

I'm afraid your sentence needs an explanation for the context in which you think it works.

Morrow


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## nhk9

"I can't believe I forgot how to say "don't worry about doing the translation"!"

”翻訳するのを気にしないで”ってどう（やって）言えばいいか忘れたなんて私には考えられない。


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## pomme_pomme

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Morrow, "how" is needed. 

nhk9, thankyou


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## Morrow

Doing the translation in and out of itself is not so difficult, as long as your attention is on the message.  But when you want to convey how you're feeling, you will be entering the world of implicatures and metamessages.  Then doing the translation is no longer an easy job.    

Actually, what makes it more difficult than it should be is that your example sounds just strange.  'I can't believe' goes well with 'somebody doesn't *know how to* do something' or 'somebody *forgot to *do something.'  But if you want to use 'I *forgot how to* do something' together with '*I can't believe*,' you're expected to satisfy the semantic restrictions: the loss of your total knowledge is surprisingly large.  

So, 'I can't believe I forgot how to *spell the alphabet*' poses no problem.   This covers the whole range of the spelling disabilities.  On the other hand, you will find it less easy to understand 'I can't believe I forgot how to *spell the letter "W."*'  Your reaction would be, 'What?  Why does your failing to spell the letter "W" mean much, compared with, for example, the letter "M"? Tell me more about it so that I can follow you.'

The latter  is much closer to your example, though it is still easier to understand because it suggests that the speaker might be suffering from some kind of mental disorder.

However, just saying you forgot the way to say 'don't worry about doing the translation' (in another language) doesn't give us a clue to exactly what kind of trouble you're in.   The loss of your partial knowledge seems so small that nobody will have any reason to believe you're justifying your point.

If you were to change the 'I can't believe' part into '*I'm sorry*' or '*I was embarrassed when*,' you would be more likely to find its Japanese counterpart easily.  

If you stick to 'I can't believe,' however, I think you have to explain what exactly you're saying by that.

Morrow


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## notnotchris

pomme_pomme said:


> "I can't believe I forgot how to say "don't worry about doing the translation"!"


 
「翻訳をやらなくてもいい」という表現を忘れたなんて自分でも信じられない


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## Flaminius

*notnotchris*, welcome back!  

I like your suggestion 自分でも信じられない.  While Chris's suggestion is correct, I understand the following is as correct and popular as his.

自分でも信じられないけど、「翻訳なんて気にするな」ってどういえばいいのかど忘れしていた。


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## Mugi

Flaminius said:


> 「翻訳なんて気にするな」


Flaminus, I think you (and nhk9) have misunderstood the original English; "don't worry about VERB-ing xxx" means 「○○○を[動詞]しなくてもいい」. It's a set phrase used when you want to tell someone that it is _no longer necessary to do something_. つまり、事情が変わったため、やる必要がなくなったときに用いるフレーズ. Your suggestion means "don't worry about the translation" - a small, but important, difference.


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## nhk9

Here's my view on it...

翻訳するのを気にしないで Don't worry about the (action) of do(ing) the translation
翻訳なんて気にするな Don't worry about things such as translation
○○を[動詞]しなくてもいい It's good/ok/fine even if one does not do the translation.

I think "don't worry about VERB-ing xxx" may be similar to "_no longer necessary to do something" _in some contexts, it is not always the case that you can switch it to the latter. 

For example, if you say "don't worry about doing it correctly now", it may very well mean that one should do it correctly after some practice, or after some time has passed. In this case it would make little sense to say "it's no longer necessary to do it correctly now". The quoted part in the question by the OP can be a part of a statement or a full statement. Because we all are not sure about the context of the original statement, it's safer just to provide the most direct literal translation, IMHO.


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## Mugi

nhk9, sorry, I didn't read your suggestion properly - I saw the 気にしないで and thought you had mistranslated, whereas in fact I think you have understood the English, just provided a very direct translation.

You are right about it not necessarily meaning "no longer" - it could just be a case of "not being necessary". Although your example doesn't really illustrate this. Both "correctly" and "now" place new and separate conditions on the situation - it would have to be "Don't worry about doing it" to match the off-the-top-of-my-head formula I provided (in retrospect, I should have written "Don't worry about VERB-ing the NOUN").

I do beg to differ with your final assertion though - translators too often can't see the forest for the trees and end up making direct translations which don't fully capture the intent of the original text. For example, while your back translation of 翻訳をやらなくてもいい is good for learning purposes, it lacks a qualifier - the implication of the English is that the listener may still do the translation if they want to, but in the *present context* that implication barely exists in the Japanese (which is why nonnotchris' suggestion perfectly matches the intent of the orginal English).


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## Morrow

pomme_pomme said:


> I can't believe I forgot how to say "don't worry about doing the translation"!


(1) ?? "don't worry about doing the translation"に当たる表現を私が忘れるなんて信じられない!

Apart from the problem mentioned earlier, there are a couple of tricky problems to consider.　Let's assume here that "信じられない" is what corresponds to "I can't believe."  

First, the implicit subject of the subordinate clause doesn't refer to the speaker.   The person who forgot is not you but somebody else.

(2) こんな大事なことを忘れるなんて信じられない。

You can use "この" or "自分でも" to emphasize that what happened to you was incredibly surprising.  "この" suggests that "I" know somebody may forget but "I" was sure that no such thing would happen to me.  And "自分でも" presupposes that someone said earlier, "I can't believe you forgot." (or suggests "I" could imagine someone would agree with me).

(3) a. こんな大事なことを私が忘れるなんて信じられない。
     b. こんな大事なことを*この私*が忘れるなんて信じられない。
     c. こんな大事なことを忘れるなんて*自分でも*信じられない。


It is important to note, though, that "自分でも" does not necessarily refer to the implicit subject, as shown in (4). 

(4) a. こんな大事なことを*(この)私*が忘れるなんて*自分でも*信じられない。
     b.　*親友の恵子*がうちの亭主と浮気してたなんて*自分でも*信じられない。

Now, the best part.
In Japanese, "信じられない" is not fully compatible with what corresponds to "how to _do_."  

(5) a.? 盲腸の手術の仕方を忘れるなんて信じられない。
     b.? 靴ひもの結び方を忘れるなんて信じられない。
     c.? こんな簡単な漢字の書き方を忘れるなんて信じられない。

The choice of "の仕方を忘れる" gives you the impression that the speaker doesn't have much tact.  The real focus should be on qualifications as a doctor in (5a), on selinity in (5b), and on ignorance in (5c).  So you would have to emphasize instead that someone is lacking in skills and abilities needed for doing something.  

(6) a. 盲腸の手術*もできない*なんて信じられない。
     b. ?靴ひもも結べないなんて信じられない。
          cf. (For マザコンに育てられた息子) 大学生にもなって、靴ひもも結べないなんて信じられない。
     c. こんな簡単な漢字*も*書け[_or_ 知ら]*ない*なんて信じられない。

(6b) should be more acceptable than (5b), but personally, I think it sounds strange.  It would be normal here to think that you are supposed to show your concern over the patient (_or_ those who care for him or her).  (7) would cut it.  

(7) 靴ひもも結べないようじゃ、大変(だ)ね。

Finally, let's consider when the subject of the embedded clause refers to the speaker.

"信じられない" may imply criticism.  Then the speaker will try not to let himself or herself be the object of "信じられない."   

(8) a. *こんな簡単な漢字も*私が*[書け/知ら]ないなんて信じられない。
         cf. こんな簡単な漢字も[書け/知ら]ないなんて馬鹿だ。
b. こんな簡単な漢字も[書け/知ら]なかったなんて、恥ずかしい。

It would be a good idea to put the emphasis on embarrassment on the part of the speaker.

You might want to ask about "こんな簡単な漢字の書き方を私が忘れるなんて信じられない."  

If forced, I'd rate it as "??."  

"翻訳調の日本語" blurs judgment, but I'd strongly suggest that you avoid saying "~の仕方を私が忘れるなんて信じられない."   No one who is sensitive to language and cultural context would say anything like that in the firtst place.  Thus, they will be looking for (_or_ hearing) a hidden message in what you said, and most likely conclude that what you're really doing is evading something:you're avoiding accepting you as who you are (because you probably just don't know how to do it, though you said you just forgot how to do it,) or you're avoiding assuming the responsibility resulting from your failing to do it.   In short, you might sound like you're a self-deceiver or liar.   Now what is at stake will be your competence, reputation and reliability.   

It is my advice that when you want to say something in Japanese, you should focus on facts.   If you want to say how you're feeling, then pay attention to how you'll be heard (but not to what you want to say).  

Morrow


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## Flaminius

Hello, Morrow.  Great comments. 



Morrow said:


> It is important to note, though, that "自分でも" does not necessarily refer to the implicit subject, as shown in (4).
> 
> (4) a. こんな大事なことを*(この)私*が忘れるなんて*自分でも*信じられない。
> b.　*親友の恵子*がうちの亭主と浮気してたなんて*自分でも*信じられない。


But your (4b) illustrates how 自分 is unable to refer to 親友の恵子, the explicit subject of the subordinate clause.    自分 is a reflexive pronoun.  Syntactically speaking, a reflexive pronoun can refer to any subject in the sentence.  It is largely up to contextual information, I believe, to decide which subject(s) it actually refers to.



> Now, the best part.
> In Japanese, "信じられない" is not fully compatible with what corresponds to "how to _do_."
> 
> (5) a.? 盲腸の手術の仕方を忘れるなんて信じられない。
> b.? 靴ひもの結び方を忘れるなんて信じられない。
> c.? こんな簡単な漢字の書き方を忘れるなんて信じられない。
> 
> The choice of "の仕方を忘れる" gives you the impression that the speaker doesn't have much tact.  The real focus should be on qualifications as a doctor in (5a), on selinity in (5b), and on ignorance in (5c).  So you would have to emphasize instead that someone is lacking in skills and abilities needed for doing something.


These sentences are clearly well-formed even if they are not idiomatically the first choice of native speakers.  I wouldn't suggest sentences (6) as replacements because they mean different things from sentences (5).

If the lack of "skills and abilities needed for doing something" (or the lack thereof) has more affinity with 信じられない than simple act of forgetting, would it be just that 信じる as a verb is more friendly to state objects than action objects?  I feel replacing 忘れる by 忘れた greatly improves the acceptability of each sentence. [Note: た, especially in subordinate sentences, can express various states such as resultative, continuative, perfect]



> "翻訳調の日本語" blurs judgment, but I'd strongly suggest that you avoid saying "~の仕方を私が忘れるなんて信じられない."


I agree this sentence smacks of a poor translation from an European language.  It is in fact due to the unnecessary explicit subject 私が.


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## pomme_pomme

Thankyou everyone for the replies, honestly, thankyou so much. This has all gotten so complicated, so I'm going to take time to read them and then reply later! At quick glance, however, I can say that what I meant by my original sentence was what nhk9 said, that I did not want the person to worry (not literally worry or fret, but more 'think') about doing the translation because it was no longer necessary that they do it. 

Doumo arigatou!


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## Mugi

pomme_pomme said:


> I can say that what I meant by my original sentence was what nhk9 said, that I did not want the person to worry (not literally worry or fret, but more 'think') about doing the translation because it was no longer necessary that they do it.


In which case it's not nhk9's suggestion, but notnotchris' suggestion (with respect to 気にしない vs やらなくていい that you want!


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## Morrow

Flaminius said:


> But your (4b) illustrates how 自分 is unable to refer to 親友の恵子


I'm afraid you just misunderstood my comments.  What I was saying was that the fact that "自分でも" can co-occur with "この私"　or  "親友の恵子" reveals that "自分でも" does not always refer to the implicit subject of the subordinate clause.   



Flaminius said:


> Syntactically speaking, a reflexive pronoun can refer to any subject in the sentence.


Sorry, but I have to say that you're contradicting yourself here.  If a "reflexive pronoun" can refer to ANY subject in the sentence, all that you're saying is that "自分" in (4b) can refer to "親友の恵子," although I have to admit that I have no idea what you mean by a "reflexive pronoun."

In English at least, a "reflexive pronoun" needs to be in the same clause as its antecedent is.  And its syntactic status has to be lower than its antecedent is.

(9) a. He thought he killed himself.  ("himself" = the second "he")
     b. *Himself killed him.



Flaminius said:


> These sentences are clearly well-formed


You need to be careful here.  The word "well-formed" doesn't show the same idea as the word "acceptable" does. 

A single glance at (10) might make you believe that it could work.

(10)? 盲腸の手術の仕方を忘れ*た*なんて信じられない。
(where the understood subject should be a surgeon.  _Now_ the surgeon may be the speaker or someone else.  Either is possible, though I'd like to leave it open whether either is *equally* possible.  That's one reason why I left it untouched in my previous post.)  

But once you think about the possible situation where (10) could be *actually *uttered, you instantly realize how strange (10) really is.

If someone were to say in Japanese something like "I can't believe *a surgeon *forgot how to operate for appendicitis" (which should be as easy as ABC for someone who calls himself or herself a surgeon), you would think the speaker is "言葉を知らない人"　and should instead have said something like "I can't believe a surgeon like him (or her) *can't *operate for appendicitis.", suggesting the speaker believes that they are NOT who they say they are.

And when the implicit subject is the same as the speaker himself or herself, you would certainly believe that what the surgeon-speaker is doing is trying to evade his or her responsibility.  You would finally conclude that the reason someone said something like that is most likely that they're not qualified at all as a SURgeon (even though they really are).

That's the problem I've pointed out for learners of Japanese who might simply think the very pattern that works in English will also work in Japanese, ending up being heard as saying "I'm a self-deceiver (or worse a liar). "

Just because something is grammatical, it doesn't mean it is *also *acceptable.  Don't confuse grammaticality with acceptability.

Morrow


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## Morrow

pomme_pomme said:


> At quick glance, however, I can say that what I meant by my original sentence was what nhk9 said, that I did not want the person to worry (not literally worry or fret, but more 'think') about doing the translation because it was no longer necessary that they do it.


Then you could just say, "翻訳の件はご心配なく(because I'll do it [_or_ I'll have someone do it])."

The "忘れ[る/た]" part suggests that you did put someone in trouble, no matter what the nature or extent may be.  If you forgot to say "Don't worry about doing the translation," what you should have done first was apologize: ご迷惑をおかけしてすみませんでした.

And you could mention a fact: "Don't worry about doing the translation"て日本語でどう言っ*た*のかどうしても思い出せませんでした(suggesting at least you did try. Just forgetting or neglecting makes you sound impolite).  "*た*" suggests you HAD learned how to say it, but somehow forgot the way to say it at the time in question. cf. When *was* the next meeting?

Finally, you could add something in the hope to soothe the feelings of the other party: 忙しさにまぎれてついうっかりしていました。同じミスをしないように気をつけます。

As far as feelings are concerned (especially if you did something to make others uncomfortable), the wording will tend to be lengthy.  

But if you are really sorry about what you did, just adding something like "すみません" should generally work.  

If I correctly understand the situation you have in mind, it will be '"翻訳の件はご心配なく 'と申し添えるのを忘れておりました。申し訳ありませんでした.'
Morrow


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