# Nominalizing ところ



## Starfrown

When I first started posting on these forums, I asked a question about the following excerpt from Mishima's 「鏡子の家」:

...その橋の上がるところを見たがったので...

which should be translated as:

"...because [they] wanted to see the bridge rising..."

I had been somewhat confused before because I had thought it meant:

"...because [they] wanted to see the place where the bridge rises..."

I have since noticed that almost no English-language textbooks mention ところ as a nominalizer.  Could someone please comment a bit on this use and how it relates to that of the other more common nominalizers の and こと?  How do you keep from confusing it with the noun "place" as I did?


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## lrosa

Hello

I have also noticed that textbooks seem to attach a disproportionately low level of importance to the nominalizer ところ. 

Bearing in mind that I am only learning myself... I believe that ところ is used as a nominalizer in cases where it describes an action/scene that can be seen by the eye, which fits in with your example sentence. Also, I believe that the nominalizer の could also be used in your sentence, except as その橋*が*上がるのを見たがったので...

I fear that I could be completely wrong, though, and I welcome correction. 

As to how to avoid confusing this usage of ところ with its meaning of "place", I will leave that to others.


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## rukiak

Hello Starfrown.
I think it would be helpful to think about the possibility of any association between the verb in the clause and "place".


Starfrown said:


> ...その橋の上がるところを見たがったので...
> 
> which should be translated as:
> 
> "...because [they] wanted to see the bridge rising..."
> 
> I had been somewhat confused before because I had thought it meant:
> 
> "...because [they] wanted to see the place where the bridge rises..."


I think the sentence "to see the place where the bridge rises" is strange even in English (isn't it?). Because, what you want to see is supposed to be which one of them ,between where the bridge is and the moment when the bridge rises.

I give you a few examples , if you have time, pls try to judge the meaning "ところ".

1.イギリスの田舎のハーブの花などが庭一面に咲いているような_ところを見たい_と思っています

2.見逃した_ところを見たい_

3.東北新幹線の連結する_ところを見たい_のですが、 盛岡以外で、_どこか_ありますか？


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## Starfrown

I'll attempt to give literal translations of your examples:



rukiak said:


> 1.イギリスの田舎のハーブの花などが庭一面に咲いているような_ところを見たい_と思っています


"I think I'd like to see the sort of place where herb-flowers from the English countryside and the like are blooming all over the garden."

(I think there is a possible ambiguity in this sentence.  I think イギリスの田舎のハーブの花など may mean either "herb-flowers and the like from the English countryside" or "herb-flowers from the English countryside and the like."  Please correct me if I'm wrong.)


rukiak said:


> 2.見逃した_ところを見たい_


"I want to see places I've overlooked."


rukiak said:


> 3.東北新幹線の連結する_ところを見たい_のですが、 盛岡以外で、_どこか_ありますか？


"I'd like to see the place where the Tohoku Shinkansen is coupled, but is there somewhere other than Morioka?"

It seems to me that they all mean "place," but I'm not really sure!

In any case, do you think it's fair to say that ところ as a nominalizer is much more like の than こと? Are there any situations in which you could use ところ but not の, or vice versa--or are they always interchangeable?


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## Arashi

Starfrown said:


> ...その橋の上がるところを見たがったので...
> 
> which should be translated as:
> 
> "...because [they] wanted to see the bridge rising..."


Would another way to translate this be "they wanted to see the rising bridge"?


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## rukiak

Starfrown said:


> I'll attempt to give literal translations of your examples:
> "I think I'd like to see the sort of place where herb-flowers from the English countryside and the like are blooming all over the garden."
> (I think there is a possible ambiguity in this sentence. I think イギリスの田舎のハーブの花など may mean either "herb-flowers and the like from the English countryside" or "herb-flowers from the English countryside and the like." Please correct me if I'm wrong.)


Your indication is reasonable. There is an ambiguity there. Sorry, now I found that the original text from the internet has a *space* between が and 庭.
   イギリスの田舎のハーブの花などが 庭一面に咲いているような_ところを見たい_と思っています
(There is a space between が and 庭 ,without a space after イギリスの. That means イギリスの does not modify many parts.)
So "herb-flowers from the English countryside and the like." is right.


Starfrown said:


> "I want to see places I've overlooked."


That's correct.


Starfrown said:


> "I'd like to see the place where the Tohoku Shinkansen is coupled, but is there somewhere other than Morioka?"


This is tricky, easily misunderstood even by Japanese on the street. 
"新幹線" has 2 meanings of  "Shinkansen bullet train" and "the trunk line only for that train". 
The original site of this No3 example seems to mean the former. So the sentense means "I'd like to see Tohoku-Shinkansens be coupled.". If you read the detail of the text in that site, you would agree with this judge.
But if I were the writer, I would rather say "東北新幹線*が*連結する*の*_を見たい_のですが".

What I want to say with those examples of mine is that:

 from ex1. ; ところ as a nominalizer is unlikely to come with ambiguous modifier like ような.

 from ex2. ; You may judge by the tense. The main verb 見たい is present, but 見逃した is past or present perfect.　
ところ as a nominalizer doesn't make sense  because the tenses are inconsistent, while it makes sense as "place" .

 from ex3. ; It depends on the context, and judging the meaning of ところ is ambiguous even for Japanese. 
Formally, 場所 or 点 are rather used for "place". On the other hand, casually, you use nominalizer and talk more and ask to make it sure.


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## rukiak

This is the rest.


Starfrown said:


> In any case, do you think it's fair to say that ところ as a nominalizer is much more like の than こと?


Hmm...I think so.



Starfrown said:


> Are there any situations in which you could use ところ but not の?


　今、食事を済ませたところです。（＝今、食事を済ませたばかりです。）


Starfrown said:


> , or vice versa?


漢字を書くのは難しい。 
おいしいのが食べたい。
雨がやむのを待つ。


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## lrosa

Could these two points be considered correct?

1. ところ is used as a nominalizer in cases where it describes an action/scene that can be seen by the eye.

2. の could also be used in the topic sentence, except as その橋*が*上がるのを見たがったので...


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## rukiak

Hello Irosa.


lrosa said:


> Could these two points be considered correct?
> 1. ところ is used as a nominalizer in cases where it describes an action/scene that can be seen by the eye.


Actually, I don't know. I think you can't always say that, because the 2nd example of mine in #4 is about exact  action/scene, but the "ところ" is not used as a nominalizer.
I think your idea"1." is not good way to deal with this matter.



lrosa said:


> 2. の could also be used in the topic sentence, except as その橋*が*上がるのを見たがったので...


That's right, and "が" is more natural.


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## lrosa

Hi Rukiak, Thank you very much for your response. Perhaps I implied that I thought ところ is used as a nominalizer in *all *cases where it describes an action/scene that can be seen by the eye. I realise now that that's too general a statement. However, would it be fair to say that in all cases where ところ is used as a nominalizer, it _is _describing such a scene?

@Starfrown: As evidenced by Rukiak's examples, の is far more common and more flexible a nominalizer than ところ. The one example where ところ can be used but not の (今、食事を済ませた*ところ*です) is a different use of ところ, as you probably know.



Arashi said:


> Would another way to translate this be "they wanted to see the rising bridge"?



Hi Arashi, I just noticed this question. I think that your English sentence would be translated as 上がる橋を見たがった


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## rukiak

lrosa said:


> Hi Rukiak, Thank you very much for your response. Perhaps I implied that I thought ところ is used as a nominalizer in *all *cases where it describes an action/scene that can be seen by the eye. I realise now that that's too general a statement. However, would it be fair to say that in all cases where ところ is used as a nominalizer, it _is _describing such a scene?


Hello Irosa.
I may be able to give you some counterexamples. But some of these may not be 'nominalizer'　in your-speak. I hope preferably many examples are useful for your question.

何も言えないところを見ると　;reaction
君の無神経なところがきらいだ。 ;character, attitude
彼女の、時々髪を手で触るところが私は好きだ ；habit ,gesture ,しぐさ(in japanese)
この発電所の特徴は5000万世帯の電力をまかなえるところです。　；ability
君、すぐにゴメンと謝るところは直した方がいいよ。；character ,habit
彼の背の高いところを私は気に入っています。；appearance, aspect

By the way, I am not familiar with the technical term,'nominalization', in the grammer about japanese. I mean, it's bizarre that "ところ" as "place" is not a nominalizer in your conversations. It seems that "ところ"(or ”の”,”こと”) without the original meaning are called "nominalizer". But what is the original meaning?  "ところ" has a lot of meanings like 'place' ,'part' ,'cace' ,'time' ,'point' ,'scene' etc.

For the case  『...その橋の上がるところを見たがったので...』 ,you can also translate as
  "...because [they] wanted to see the *scene* the bridge is rising..."

So ,in my opinion ,the meaning of 'nominalizer' in each case should be ,firstly,understood by the context, and ,secondaly,understood by the form of the phrase; I mean memorization of forms, moment to moment, are preferable.

Though, what I said before that is 『I think your idea"1." is not good way to deal with this matter.』 was wrong. Each person has each methods which is suitable for them. So thinking from action/scene may be a good step to get a better grasp than what I recommend.


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## Flaminius

rukiak said:


> Hello Irosa.
> I may be able to give you some counterexamples. But some of these may not be 'nominalizer'　in your-speak. I hope preferably many examples are useful for your question.


Hello *rukiak*,
Your counterexamples all use ところ as a nominaliser.  For a quick test, all instances of ところ are immediately followed by postpositions in your sentences. [By the way, the standard English writing convention is to use "comma plus a space" or "(semi)colon plus a space" to separate items; not "just a comma" or "a space plus a symbol".  Also, please capitalise language names in English.]

An apparent case where ところ is not a nominaliser is below.  Here, it is used as a conjunctive particle (接続助詞):
この薬を投与したところ、九割の患者で症状が改善した。


Now, let's get back to ところ as a nominaliser.  Perhaps we'd better first agree on what a nominaliser is.  It's a linguistic term for a word or a morpheme that makes the modified element function like a noun.  In this thread, we are interested in those that make a whole aggregate of the subject, the verb and the object (usually called a clause or a sentence) work as the subject or the object in a larger sentence.  A nominaliser in English is _that_:
I know that she is happy.
That she is happy is evident from her coy smile.

Note a _that_-clause can serve different functions in a sentence.  In the first sentence, it is the direct object of the verb _know_.  In the second, it is the subject of the sentence.

Different nominalisers have different meanings.  For example, _that_ presents the modified clause as a fact or a conclusion (see above).  Another nominaliser, _when_, is "the time when the modified clause happens."  Here are examples (I admit that "the date" is a more natural selection both sentences):
The secretary is about leak to the media when the president will fly to Columbia.
When the president will fly to Columbia is a secret.


ところ in sentences discussed so far is a nominaliser in that it modifies a sentence and the _tokoro_-clauses get postpositions to serve noun-like functions (the subject, the object ect.) in larger sentences.

I think *lrosa* (*イロサ*じゃなくて*エルローザ*ですね) made a nice first approximation when he said ところ is a scene.  What's described by ところ is often a visual perception but it is not as concrete as an object that one can hold in one's hand or be crushed physically under its weight.  A scene is also an ephimeral product of many conditions.  Even you saw a scene here today, there is no guarrantee that you can see the same at hte same place tomorrow.  I think I have discussed similar examples in *Starfrown*'s other thread and I still find a contrastive pair like below educational.

a. 橋が上がるところを見た
b. 橋が上がることを確認した

Sentences *a* is concerned with one and only one instance of the bridge opening.  One breezes in, sees the bridge open and leaves; all contented.  Sentence *b* is concerned with a more general issue; the ability of the bridge to open.  One wants to know if the bridge can open, not only once but perhaps on a regular basis.  One may have to open the bridge once to confirm the ability, but one is satisfied with the result NOT because one could open the bridge once but because it provides prospect that it can open in various other situations.  [By the way, the nominaliser の can be used in both sentences.]


The meanings of _tokoro_-clauses, however, are more diverse, including reaction, character, attitude habit, gesture, ability, appearance, aspect, etc. (*rukiak*).

Maybe 何も言えないところを見ると can be understood as a scene wherein someone remains silent to a criticism (?), but most of other sentences by him cannot.  For sentences like 彼の背の高いところを私は気に入っています, I think ところ is used as "a component" or "a part."  There are a lot of characteristics, good and bad, salient and subtle, that makes up the man the speaker likes (hereafter I assume it is a she).  Of all these, she takes up his being tall and declares she likes it.  She likes him as the possessor of the quality being tall.  The implications here are that there are qualities about him that the she may not like and that they don't outweigh the reason she is fond of him.




> It seems that "ところ" (or ”の”, ”こと”) without the original meaning are called "nominalizer". But what is the original meaning? "ところ" has a lot of meanings like 'place', 'part', 'case', 'time', 'point', 'scene' etc.


I am not sure what you mean by the original meaning of ところ, but a nominaliser is a grammatical definition.  If a certain instance of ところ meets the criteria we have discussed, it is a nominaliser no matter in what sense it is used.


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## rukiak

Oh, thank you for your correction and explanation. I owe you one.


Flaminius said:


> I am not sure what you mean by the original meaning of ところ, but a nominaliser is a grammatical definition. If a certain instance of ところ meets the criteria we have discussed, it is a nominaliser no matter in what sense it is used.


My point was (is) that it, the criteria itself, seems not clear-cut so that I suggest


rukiak said:


> So ,in my opinion ,the meaning of 'nominalizer' in each case should be ,firstly,understood by the context, and ,secondaly,understood by the form of the phrase; I mean memorization of forms, moment to moment, are preferable.
> Though, what I said before that is 『I think your idea"1." is not good way to deal with this matter.』 was wrong. Each person has each methods which is suitable for them. So thinking from action/scene may be a good step to get a better grasp than what I recommend.


Anyway, I always make remarks as a personal opinion very consciously in this forum, not as the best one. And #1 could make his choice in accordance with his need. (frankly speaking, I'm bewilded by being questioned or involved in a discussion without #1,....even so, I appreciate advices made to me.)


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## lrosa

Rukiak, thank you for your interesting and useful counter-examples. I had been aware of a slightly different use of ところ which seems to me to indicate a person's/thing's specific character trait, but I had momentarily forgotten about this... It seems to me that most of your counter-examples are connected to this meaning. 

I'm also aware of a use of ところ which refers to one specific point in a wider whole. Example: 分からないところがあったら、遠慮なく聞いてください. This is similar, in a way, to the usage which indicates character traits (since the ところ in question is, so to speak, one specific trait of the wider whole).

So at the moment, I am aware of 5 main uses of ところ, all of which could be said to serve a nominalising function:


1: A place
2: A scene/action visible to the eye
3: A specific character trait/point
4: The use which is very similar to that of ばかり, which refers to an action just completed in the past, in the process of taking place in the present, or just about to take place in the future
5: To refer to something that nearly happened but didn't, as in 私はもう少しで宿題を忘れる*ところ*だった - "I almost forgot my homework"


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## Flaminius

lrosa said:


> So at the moment, I am aware of three main uses of ところ, all of which could be said to serve a nominalising function:
> 
> 1: A place
> 2: A scene/action visible to the eye
> 3: A specific character trait/point


If you want to be very very picky , you might want to branch out ところ like below from the "scene/action visible to the eye" sense (*rukiak* #7 _supra_):
今、食事を済ませたところです
I'd term the use as "moment" (here it is completion moment but starting moment is possible too; 出かけるところです)



rukiak said:


> Anyway, I always make remarks as a personal opinion very consciously in this forum, not as the best one. And #1 could make his choice in accordance with his need. (frankly speaking, I'm bewilded by being questioned or involved in a discussion without #1,....even so, I appreciate advices made to me.)


Ah, your bewilderment is most unfortunate as we are a discussion forum.  You might want to check the WR Mission Statements.  In fact, I didn't criticize or challenge your comments.  You seemed to be unsure of what "nominaliser" means, so I supplied a definition as I see fit in the current discussion.  I am sure the original poster will say something if my definition is off the mark.

I think we have almost completed enumerating major meanings of _tokoro_-clauses.  Shall we, then, compare them with other nominalised clauses?


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## Starfrown

rukiak said:


> ...frankly speaking, I'm bewildered by being questioned or involved in a discussion without #1,....even so, I appreciate advices made to me.)


I'm following everyone's comments closely.  It has been a very informative discussion for me thus far.



Flaminius said:


> Shall we, then, compare them with other nominalised clauses?


By all means.


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