# Two coffees please



## Mklangelo

Cherine said:

This is off-topic, so if we're going to discuss it further let's open a new thread. I just wanted to make two comments:
- coffee is ahwa قهوة (h هـ not 7 ح) 
- shwaya/shawayyet means "some", so you can't put an indeterminate thing (some) and a determined one (two/etneen) in one sentence 

... In Egypt, we say shwayyet shay شوية شاي (some tea) but -and I don't know why  - we don't say shwayyet ahwa !

I replied:


I need to redo this lesson tomorrow in order to hear again and "burn that new neural pathway"  lol


And thanks for the clarification on Awha


So شوية شاي is good.    How about: Aheb ethneen awha, min fudlik.  Assuming I'm ordering from a woman.


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## Josh_

"aHibb itneen ahwa" sounds odd to me when placing an order.  I might have to go back and do a review, but I think the verb 'yiHibb' is really only used to mean 'I would like' when followed by another verb (tiHibb tiruuH feen?) or in the the case of asking a question (tiHibb 2ahwa walla shay?).  I don't think it is generally used as a statement (when ordering) in terms of "I would like ..." In that case it just has the usual meaning of 'to love' or 'to like'.  To me "aHibb itneen 2ahwa" sounds like "I like 2 coffees." So I would just suggest 3aayiz/3aawiz:

3aayiz itneen 2ahwa, min faDlik.

You can also just say "itneen 2ahwa, min faDlik" like you could in English.

The 'th' sound is generally not used in the Egyptian dialect.  Where is appears in MSA it is rendered as either a 't' or an 's' depending on the word.  In the case of 'two' it is a 't' so it would be 'itneen'.


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## MilitaryLinguist

This is my first post to the board and I'm only 3 months into my study of Arabic -- though the studies are strenuous, considering that learning Arabic is the only job I currently have in the military.

At our military post, the study of Arabic is a year & 1/2 long journey that takes us from the land of arabic ignorance to the land of "near-native fluency" -- or so they say. We spend 8 hours each day in class + homework. Our classes are taught by seven different teachers, each a native of an Arab country -- we have 2 egyptians, 2 from Sudan, 1 from Jordan, and 2 from egypt.

All of our teachers hate the concept of transliteration, mainly because they, and the designers of the Defense Language Curriculum, believe that it hinders vocabulary comprehension, retention, and recollection by creating a "middleman" so to speak between the two languages that is mentally recalled and translated to/from during language translation. 

So I may not be reading your transliteration correctly, but if my reading is correct, you're talking about saying something to the degree of:

احب ان اشرب قهوة

or 

اريد ان اشرب قهوة

From my understanding, the filler ان
must be added after either احب  or  اريد  if you are planning to add another verb directly afterward.

Also, I could be wrong, but "aHibb itneen 2ahwa" probably (even if it were grammatically correct) wouldn't get anyone confused with 2 coffees, because the word for two would be placed behind the noun "coffee" as it is a dual numeric. Still, Josh's advice seems pretty dead on other than that.

Great meeting everyone. I'm going to try to post frequently.


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## MarcB

Military, they are using colloquial or spoken Egyptian, which is quite different from MSA. Your examples are MSA. What you said is I want to drink coffee.


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## MilitaryLinguist

I know...sadly, couldn't remember the word for "buy", lol. I see now that they were referring to dialect. Thanks for the clarification.


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## MarcB

Buy=ابتاع ,اشترى


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## Mklangelo

I do agree with the transliteration being sort of a middleman.  But I also understand that the difference between written MSA and spoken dialect is large enough that it makes sense to learn a colloquial dialect first, then learn the alphabet and it's sounds.  Then with a sound basis, one can build upon the similarities and learn MSA or any other dialect.  

In the mean time it gives me a way to talk on this forum. 

Good luck in your studies.


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## clevermizo

So one doesn't use some sort of counter-word with قهوة?

I would assume you would use either kaas, koob, kobaaya or something with coffee. Or if Arabic coffee, maybe fenjaan. I don't know much about spoken Egyptian. I've only been studying MSA and Levantine. My first thought was to ask for "kaasteen ahwe" or "koobeen/kobaayteen ahwe" but I don't know if that's normal at all. Maybe even "fenjaaneen ahwe" but I know fenjaan really just refers to the little cups used for Arabic coffee.


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## elroy

In colloquial Palestinian Arabic, it works just as in English.

If you're at a restaurant and there's only one way the coffee is served, you could say "tneen 2ahwe," just as you might say "two coffees" in English.

However, if you need to specify what you want your coffee in, then you can say "kaasteen 2ahwe" or "finjaneen 2ahwe."  The former sounds a little strange because you usually don't have "2ahwe" in a "kaase."


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> In colloquial Palestinian Arabic, it works just as in English.
> 
> If you're at a restaurant and there's only one way the coffee is served, you could say "tneen 2ahwe," just as you might say "two coffees" in English.
> 
> However, if you need to specify what you want your coffee in, then you can say "kaasteen 2ahwe" or "finjaneen 2ahwe."  The former sounds a little strange because you usually don't have "2ahwe" in a "kaase."



Do you have to use something with shaay? I think cherine mentioned somewhere above that at least in Egyptian, you can't count shaay.  Can you just say "tneen shaay"? It's funny, but I can't remember what I used to say in Amman. And I drank coffee and/or tea every day... maybe I never ordered more than one though.


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## elroy

"Tneen shaay" is acceptable (only speaking for my dialect, of course ).


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## Abu Rashid

> "Tneen shaay" is acceptable (only speaking for my dialect, of course ).



Don't Palestinians normally say "tintain" instead of "tneen"? Or perhaps both are used?


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> Don't Palestinians normally say "tintain" instead of "tneen"? Or perhaps both are used?


 Both are used - "tneen" is masculine and "tinteen" is feminine.

In this context, we usually say "tneen shaay" - don't ask me why!

(But if you do, here's my attempt at an explanation: I think it's because the number isn't syntactically dependent on a specific noun - it's simply used to indicate a quantity, with the noun as the explanation of what the item in question is - so we use the "default," which is the masculine.  We also say "waa7ad salaTa," even though "salaTa" is feminine.)


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## Abu Rashid

elroy,

Thanks.



> We also say "waa7ad salaTa," even though "salaTa" is feminine.



Well this would be correct according to MSA rules. The number should have opposite gender to counted item.

I suspected it might be a feminine form, even though most other dialects don't have a feminine form for ithnan.


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## Anatoli

Do colloquial dialects use dual forms at all? Something similar to  MSA's qahwataani -> qahwatayni ( قهوتان -> قهوتين )? Please correct if there are any errors.

Interested in this in general, not just for "two coffees".
In MSA to say "2-3 kids", you need "waladaani - thalaathatu awlaada", what will be the colloquial (any East Arabic dialect is fine)?


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> elroy,
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Well this would be correct according to MSA rules. The number should have opposite gender to counted item.
> 
> I suspected it might be a feminine form, even though most other dialects don't have a feminine form for ithnan.



Actually that's not exactly right. That's only true with the numbers 3-10. In MSA واحد and إثنان function as normal adjectives with the feminine forms واحدة and إثنتان (where tinteen comes from), although normally one would not use any numeral to count 1 or 2 of something, but would use the indefinite singular noun, or the dual. The difference is also syntactic between 1&2 and 3-10: 1&2 are totally adjectives and agree in gender and case with the noun they modify (which, incidentally, they follow). 3-10 disagree in gender and cast the plural noun into جرّ case. (I think I might not be totally correct and there is something funny about the number 10). Thus 3-10, since they govern a different case in the noun they count, are syntactically a bit different than strict adjectives. 

My theory as to why you say waa7ad 2ahwe, tneen 2ahwe, etc. is that colloquial Levantine dialects have one set of numbers that are just the numerals, and one set for counting. Like, tlaate is the number 3, but when you count three of something you use tlaat (or pronounced tlett more normally). While waa7ad and tneen are the names for the numerals, my guess is that waa7ad and tneen are also the forms used when "counting" (although the dual is also used in colloquial). Tneen is often used with nouns that would awkwardly or not normally take a dual (like kiilo - although Syrians say Kiliyeen, but in Amman people say tneen kiilo). Since what you're counting when you say "2 coffees" is not strictly the "coffee" but the dosages, "biddi 2ahwiteen" would sound strange. The same with shaay (I don't think a form like "shaayeen" can exist). 

That's just a guess, however.

The form tinteen does surface however, which such things as "two o'clock" "is-saa3a tinteen." (Which is different from the way you tell time in MSA).

I'm not sure what other circumstances one might see tinteen in because normally you would just use the dual for things.


EDIT: Ok, I have to change my theory since I looked it up in the big Mark Cowell Levantine grammar book. Apparently, normally you use the "numeral" form (waa7ed, tneen, tlaate, arb3a, khamse...) with the singular of "mass" nouns and ethnic collectives ("3arab, roomaan,etc"). With a "count" noun (like "book" or "table"), you would use the "count numeral" (tlett, arba3, khams) with the plural. But with a word like "2ahwe" or "shaay" or "mayy" or "7aliib" or "3arab", you use the numeral form (waa7ed, tneen, tlaate)... So let me guess, elroy, do you say "khamse 2ahwe" in Palestinian?

The logic is that since 2ahwe does not inherently have a discreet unit, so the construction is like a partitive: lit. _3 (things) of coffee_, rather than explicitly countable _3 books_. That's why you use a singular form "2ahwe."


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## Abu Rashid

> Do colloquial dialects use dual forms at all?



I think they're only used for nouns (never heard them used on verbs or pronouns).



> Something similar to  MSA's qahwataani -> qahwatayni ( قهوتان -> قهوتين )? Please correct if there are any errors.



As this word is not referring to a countable item, neither plural nor dual forms exist as far as I'm aware.


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## Anatoli

> I think they're only used for nouns (never heard them used on verbs or pronouns).


"qahwatun" and "waladun" are both nouns.



> As this word is not referring to a countable item, neither plural nor dual forms exist as far as I'm aware.


Thanks for explaining/correcting me, Abu Rashid, so even for MSA that was incorrect?


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## Abu Rashid

> "qahwatun" and "waladun" are both nouns.


Yes they are nouns, but I was just mentioning that you won't find dual of verbs or pronouns in colloquial. The cases in which it won't exist in normal nouns would be the same for MSA also I'd assume.



> so even for MSA that was incorrect?


Yep.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> Well this would be correct according to MSA rules. The number should have opposite gender to counted item.


 As Clevermizo said, that rule does not apply to the numbers 1 and 2.

My point was that we would say "salaTa wa7de" (feminine) in most cases but when we order at a restaurant we say "waa7ad salaTa." (masculine). Notice that in the latter case the number _always_ comes first (which is not normally the case for 1 and 2).

I think Clevermizo did a great job explaining why we do this. Indeed, the word "partitive" came to mind, but I hesitated to use it for fear that many might not be familiar with the term.


Anatoli said:


> Do colloquial dialects use dual forms at all? Something similar to MSA's qahwataani -> qahwatayni ( قهوتان -> قهوتين )? Please correct if there are any errors.


 Yes, we have dual forms, but we don't usually say "2ahiwteen" (when "2ahwe" means coffee; see below) because "2ahwe" is not countable. In this respect Arabic does not differ from English. 

"Tneen 2ahwe" works in the context of ordering coffee at a restaurant. Here it corresponds to the English "too coffees," where "coffee" is used as a countable noun.

We say "2ahiwteen" when "2ahwe" means مقهى (in Palestinian Arabic the word "2ahwe" has two meanings). 


> Interested in this in general, not just for "two coffees".
> In MSA to say "2-3 kids", you need "waladaani - thalaathatu awlaada", what will be the colloquial (any East Arabic dialect is fine)?


 2 kids: _waladeen_
3 kids: _talat iwlaad_ 

So yes, we use the dual. 



clevermizo said:


> My theory as to why you say waa7ad 2ahwe, tneen 2ahwe, etc. is that colloquial Levantine dialects have one set of numbers that are just the numerals, and one set for counting. Like, tlaate is the number 3, but when you count three of something you use tlaat (or pronounced tlett more normally). While waa7ad and tneen are the names for the numerals, my guess is that waa7ad and tneen are also the forms used when "counting" (although the dual is also used in colloquial).


 All correct!


> Tneen is often used with nouns that would awkwardly or not normally take a dual (like kiilo - although Syrians say Kiliyeen, but in Amman people say tneen kiilo).


 In Palestinian Arabic we say both "tneen kiilo" and "kiilteen" (notice that "kiilteen" takes a feminine "t" even though it's masculine!) - but "tneen kiilo" is more common.


> Since what you're counting when you say "2 coffees" is not strictly the "coffee" but the dosages, "biddi 2ahwiteen" would sound strange. The same with shaay (I don't think a form like "shaayeen" can exist).


 Correct. It's kind of like you're saying "2 dosages/servings *of* coffee" in abbreviated form. So you just use the plain number for the first part and the general noun for the second part. For those who know German, there is a similar construction: "ein Mal Kaffee," "zwei Mal Kaffee," etc. 


> The form tinteen does surface however, which such things as "two o'clock" "is-saa3a tinteen." (Which is different from the way you tell time in MSA).


 Correct, but let's not wander too far off-topic.  The word "tinteen" has many uses.  


> EDIT: Ok, I have to change my theory since I looked it up in the big Mark Cowell Levantine grammar book. Apparently, normally you use the "numeral" form (waa7ed, tneen, tlaate, arb3a, khamse...) with the singular of "mass" nouns and ethnic collectives ("3arab, roomaan,etc").


 I don't know how valid this theory is. Both "talat 3arab" and "talaate 3arab" are possible. Or was Cowell saying that "3arab" is one of the only types of nouns that *can* take "talaate," but doesn't have to?


> But with a word like "2ahwe" or "shaay" or "mayy" or "7aliib" or "3arab", you use the numeral form (waa7ed, tneen, tlaate)... So let me guess, elroy, do you say "khamse 2ahwe" in Palestinian?


 Yes, but only if you're ordering at a restaurant (see above). 


> The logic is that since 2ahwe does not inherently have a discreet unit, so the construction is like a partitive: lit. _3 (things) of coffee_, rather than explicitly countable _3 books_. That's why you use a singular form "2ahwe."


 Bravo 3aleek. 


Abu Rashid said:


> I think they're only used for nouns (never heard them used on verbs or pronouns).


 That's correct too!


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## Abu Rashid

> Here it corresponds to the English "too coffees,"



I think that would be two coffees.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> I think that would be two coffees.


 Silly typo!   Thanks.


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## cherine

elroy said:


> If you're at a restaurant and there's only one way the coffee is served, you could say "tneen 2ahwe," just as you might say "two coffees" in English.
> However, if you need to specify what you want your coffee in, then you can say "kaasteen 2ahwe" or "finjaneen 2ahwe." The former sounds a little strange because you usually don't have "2ahwe" in a "kaase."


Same here in Egypt. We say "etneen ahwa/shaay" or "talaata awha/shaay"...
If there's a choice between cups or glasses, we say: "etneen ahwa fe fengaan" (cup) or "fe cobbaaya" (glass). Or "fenganeen ahwa", "kobbayteen shaay/ahwa".
We use "kaas" for juice or water.
There was a thread about finjaan, cup... that may help get the difference between these.


clevermizo said:


> Do you have to use something with shaay? I think cherine mentioned somewhere above that at least in Egyptian, you can't count shaay. Can you just say "tneen shaay"?


Answer above 


Anatoli said:


> Do colloquial dialects use dual forms at all? Something similar to MSA's qahwataani -> qahwatayni ( قهوتان -> قهوتين )? Please correct if there are any errors.


The answer was given already. I'd just like to add that in Egypt too, قهوة has two meaning: the drink (coffee) and the place (café). So, when I say ahweteen it would be understood that I speak of two cafés.


> In MSA to say "2-3 kids", you need "waladaani - thalaathatu awlaadain", what will be the colloquial (any East Arabic dialect is fine)?


In MSA you can say waladaani *aw* thalaatha. (we use the "aw" (=or) instead of repeating waladaan/awlaad). And we say thalaatu aw arba3atu awlaadin.
In colloquial Egyptian we say: waladeen talaata (two-three kids), talat arba3 welaad (three-four kids).


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## elroy

cherine said:


> In MSA you can say waladaani *aw* thalaatha. (we use the "aw" (=or) instead of repeating waladaan/awlaad). And we say thalaatu aw arba3atu awlaadin.
> In colloquial Egyptian we say: waladeen talaata (two-three kids), talat arba3 welaad (three-four kids).


 We do this in Palestinian Arabic too, but if I'm not mistaken, Anatoli just wanted to know how we say "2 kids" and "3 kids" individually, and Not "2 or 3 kids" as an estimate.


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## cherine

Well, in this case I hope my answer would still stand 

In Egypt we say:
2 kids: waladeen
3 kids: talat awlaad/welaad

2 girls: benteen
3 girls: talat banaat

But never shayeen (2 teas), only etneen shaay. 

P.S. in Some cities/places of Egypt, people say shayy instead of shaay.


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> I don't know how valid this theory is. Both "talat 3arab" and "talaate 3arab" are possible. Or was Cowell saying that "3arab" is one of the only types of nouns that *can* take "talaate," but doesn't have to?



Cowell is strictly speaking, writing mostly about norms in Damascene Arabic, however, he gives plenty of notes about variation within the Lebanese-Jordanian-Palestinian speaking world. I was reading in the "apposition" section. I flipped back to the "ethnic  collective" section and this is what he writes: 

"The only respect in which they [ethnic collectives] differ from true plurals is that they are not used in numeral constructs, but must stand in apposition to the numeral: tlaate 3arab 'three Arabs'.  That is to say, the absolute form of the numeral - not the construct form - must be use before these collectives."

Underneath this section he does gives a note, however:
"Some speakers tend to assimilate almost all the ethnic collectives to true plurals, using either the construct or absolute form of numerals before them: tlett ameerkaan or tlaate ameerkaan."

Which is funny because it nullifies in a way the whole "strictness" of the way he writes (he often writes like things are strict "rules" of grammar). Anyway, he does seem to say that at least in some places the ethnic collectives are treated as normal countable plurals.


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## elroy

Thanks for the further information.

I will say that this "rule" is an over-simplification.  He himself concedes that these words are sometimes treated like normal countable nouns _in practice_.  Colloquial Arabic grammar is descriptive by definition; whatever native speakers say is acceptable.  

I will give some examples to illustrate actual Palestinian usage:

A: 
_-Akammen 3arabi kaan bil7afle?_
_-Kaan fii *talat* 3arab, wilbaa2i ajaaneb. _

B: 
_-W2ana mrawwe7 min ish-shugol shuftillak *talaate* ajaaneb Daay3iin mish 3aarfiin Alla ween 7aTiThom._ 

In scenario A, "talaate" would sound strange.
In scenario B, "talat" would sound strange.

Generally speaking, 

"Talat 3arab" = 3 Arabs (emphasis on total number)
"Talaate 3arab" = 3 people who are Arab (emphasis on "Arabs" as a descriptor) 

I gave these examples to show that "talat 3arab" is not only a possible alternative, but that sometimes it is even the preferable form.


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## suma

MilitaryLinguist said:


> Our classes are taught by seven different teachers, each a native of an Arab country -- we have 2 egyptians, 2 from Sudan, 1 from Jordan, and 2 from egypt.


 

??? did you mean to say something else?


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## clevermizo

elroy said:


> Thanks for the further information.
> 
> I will say that this "rule" is an over-simplification.  He himself concedes that these words are sometimes treated like normal countable nouns _in practice_.  Colloquial Arabic grammar is descriptive by definition; whatever native speakers say is acceptable.



Yeah  - I don't treat his book like the Bible, but it has been very useful nonetheless. I think even he has awareness that the grammar must be descriptive - I think it's just hard sometimes when you're writing a book like this _not_ to sound like your postulating rules of grammar. I mean otherwise, you'd have to use "normally" or "sometimes" every other sentence, and that would get really old. He probably gives a disclaimer somewhere in the introduction that I don't remember


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## Anatoli

Thanks for answering my questions, very interesting


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## Josh_

In one of my Egyptian colloquial books it briefly says that "A few counted nouns, including those denoting drinks ordered (in a restaurant, for example) are always in the singular, while the numbers stay in their regular 'long' form."

By long form the author is referring to the numbers as they occur in isolation:

talaata, arba3a, khamsa, sitta...

As opposed to a short form that occurs with the numbers three to ten when preceded by nouns:

talat, arba3, khamas, sitt...


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## Anatoli

Josh_ said:


> In one of my Egyptian colloquial books it briefly says that "A few counted nouns, including those denoting drinks ordered (in a restaurant, for example) are always in the singular, while the numbers stay in their regular 'long' form."
> 
> By long form the author is referring to the numbers as they occur in isolation:
> 
> talaata, arba3a, khamsa, sitta...
> 
> As opposed to a short form that occurs with the numbers three to ten when preceded by nouns:
> 
> talat, arba3, khamas, sitt...


In MSA the 2nd rule is very different - the short forms (*masculine*) are followed by *feminine* nouns in plural, the long forms (*feminine*) are followed by *masculine* nouns in plural!


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## Josh_

Yes, I am aware of the complexities of numbers in MSA.  But as you know, in the same manner that colloquial has "freed" itself from the case system found in MSA, it has also freed itself from the complexities of numbers.  For example, you would say "arba3 kilaab" in the dialect, and not "arba3at kilaab" like in MSA.

As this book is just an introduction of the colloquial dialect of Egypt, with no knowledge of MSA presumed, I think the author didn't want to overload the learner with too many complexities.  So I followed suit with my explanation of what he meant.  

Anyway, my theory is that since there is a default way of counting, when saying the numbers in isolation, you would use this form of the number when ordering. For example, in Egyptian, if I count from 1 to 10 the default is "waaHid, itneen, talaata, arba3a, khamsa, sitta, sab3a, tamanya, tis3a, 3ashara.  So, in this respect, when ordering after being asked a question you would use the default number as it would be used in isolation, when specifying how many you want since the referent has already been established and you aren't really using the number as an adjective.   For example, given the question "3aayiz kaam salaTa?" you could just as easily say "itneen" using the number by itself, as you could "itneen salaTa."


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## elroy

Josh_ said:


> For example, given the question "3aayiz kaam salaTa?" you could just as easily say "itneen" using the number by itself, as you could "itneen salaTa."


 This would not work in Palestinian Arabic.  If the referent is feminine, we say "tinteen."

_-Akammen binet fii bil-beet?_
_-Tinteen._

_-Akammen tufaa7a biddak?_
_-Tinteen._

_-Akammen sayyara 3ind abuuk?_
_-Tinteen._

In the above sentences, we would never say "tneen."

By the way, I did not use "salaTa" in my examples because in the restaurant context we would not say "akammen salaTa" but "akammen Sa7en SalaTa."  It's okay to say "tneen SalaTa" because there we're using "SalaTa" just to explain what it is we want two of (cf. "tneen 2ahwe").  "Akammen SalaTa," though, sounds just as bad as "akammen 2ahwe."


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