# omnia stanna pro comedendo et sedendo



## Chticli

Hello everybody,

It's not a school's exercise but a work for my research, i don't find the solution alone and i ask help to you for this translation.

omnia stanna, que habeo apud Sanctam Crucem pro comedendo et sedendo, conventui Sancte Crucis predicto, semel do lego.

could you help me ???

thanks a lot


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## Stoicorum_simia

This  is from a will, presumably? 
'All the _stanna_, which I have at Holy Cross for eating and sitting, I bequeath to the aforesaid convent of the Holy Cross.'
_Semel do lego_ is obviously a legal formula and perhaps some Roman lawyer can explain to us exactly what it means.
But what the testator means by _stanna_, I have no idea. _Stannum_ is post-classical Latin for tin, the metal, but that can't make sense with eating. Could it be a half-hearted latinisation of some vernacular word? Legal 'Latin' can come up with some very strange words - I have seen 'cum uno gardeno', for instance - 'with one garden'.


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## CapnPrep

I guess _stanna_ is "furnishings/utensils made of tin". For eating and drinking, yes, but for sitting? Anyway, I don't think this document is covered by _Roman_ law. _Semel_ can perhaps be understood as "all at once, once and for all", but I think it's mostly just formulaic.


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## Chticli

Thanks a lot, it's a great beginning i think

it's a passage of a testimony which has been written in 1327 !!!

Thanks a lot and if you have other ideas i take that....

Odile


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## Stoicorum_simia

CapnPrep said:


> I guess _stanna_ is "furnishings/utensils made of tin".


Yes of course, you must be right.



CapnPrep said:


> Anyway, I don't think this document is covered by _Roman_ law.


If it is a French document, would it not be some form of Roman law? Or were wills covered by canon law?


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## Scholiast

Greetings.

The formula _do lego_ is a well-established formulation in testamentary-legal language.

_stannum_ and more particularly the derivative adjective _stanneus_, though rare, are already used in classical Latin for "pewter" vessels - cooking pots, pyxeis and the like (my source here is L&S).

Is there any possibility of a mistranscription from the MS with _sedendo_? Although palaeography is not a specialism of mine, I could imagine particularly with the initial 's' some scribal error or confusion with 'b': what is known of the state of the text? (I was wondering whether _bibendo_ might have been intended.)


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## Stoicorum_simia

Scholiast said:


> _stannum_ and more particularly the derivative adjective _stanneus_, though rare, are already used in classical Latin for "pewter" vessels - cooking pots, pyxeis and the like (my source here is L&S).



Ah yes, L&S still has its uses!


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## Chticli

Thanks a lot for all your help

It's not a french document but it's a testimony by a french person of course. I will verify for "sedendo" but "bibendo" it's not stupid, it would be a error of reproduction. 

probably it's fixed by canon law but it's really difficult to find something about that and the person who writes this...

Thanks a lot for your help. In france, it's impossible to have an help like this in latin language.

Odile


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## Scholiast

Greetings, Odile

Some further questions have occurred to me.

First, in what form have you access to this text? Is it the original MS (or a facsimile thereof) that you have before you? a modern printed edition? or something in between, such as an edition of the document from the early post-Renaissance period when printing became comparably as widespread as the internet is now?

I ask, because I have  looked at some 13th-14th century MSS of English ecclesiastical documents (preponderantly in Latin, of course), and in attempting to read these it is important to know the orthographic conventions, which often involve ligatures and abbreviations which call for fairly specialist attention.


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## lacrimae

À mon avis il s'agit d'une donation en échange  de nourriture (comedendo) et logement (sedendo).
Stamna pourrait être n'ímporte quelle étendue d'eau, bien d'arrosage bien de bains.

 Je suggère

Tous les étangs,( des bains, des eaux) que je possède près du Couvent de S.C. en échange de nourriture et logement je les donne et à la fois les lègue au dit couvent S. C
.


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## XiaoRoel

> omnia stanna, que habeo apud Sanctam Crucem pro comedendo et sedendo, conventui Sancte Crucis predicto, semel do lego.


Traducción al español: *lego y (a la vez) doy al antedicho convento de la Santa Cruz, todos los objetos de estaño que tengo para comer y morar cerca de la Santa Cruz… *Es lenguaje notarial, todavía en un estadio de latín aceptable. Los objetos de etaños eran muy usados como vasos, vasijas, platods y demás menaje de uso cotidiano.


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## lacrimae

According to my opinion, stanna is the form "stagna " (stagnum,-i ),.The donation is done in exchange for food and housing. Stanna would mean  the water of baths or to irrigate.

 My translatio into incorrect English.

All the waters/ baths / that I have close to S. C. in exchange for food and the housing I give and simultaneously I bequeath to the mencionated convent.


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## lacrimae

In case of stanna was from stannum,-i  I would translate into mines .It would be important to know if there were mines or pool near the convent.


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## XiaoRoel

> All the waters/ baths / that I have close to S. C. in exchange for food and the housing I give and simultaneously I bequeath to the mencionated convent.


La construcción latina no dice esto. Podrá hacerse con más matiz, pero fundamentalmente la traducción es la ofrecí, y es lenguaje banal de miles de donaciones y documentos notariales medievales, medio latinos o medio rromances, según como se vea.

Pero de aguas, baños y demás, nada.
En el llamado latín leonés notarial (al que parece pertenecer el fragmento en cuestión) que no habla de ningún _*stagnum*_, sino del metal *stannum* (que ya aparece en Plinio) y continúa en las lenguas romances. El *estaño* era normal para la fabricación de _platos, vasos y vasijas_ de uso cotidiano o sagrado (muchos de éstos eran de estaño con un dorado exterior). En Santiago de Compostela era tradición hasta el s. XX esta artesanía/industria. Del nombre de un vaso o vasija de estaño, llamado *pichel*, viene el nombre popular de los habitantes de Compostela en gallego, *picheleiros*.


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## CapnPrep

lacrimae said:


> According to my opinion, stanna is the form "stagna " (stagnum,-i )


 I find it unlikely that one could transfer ownership of bodies of water without making any mention of the land that these bodies of water occupy, which would also belong to the person in question. And I doubt that someone who owned so much land would need to rely on a convent for food and shelter.



lacrimae said:


> In case of stanna was from stannum,-i  I would translate into mines.


It is even less likely that there could be several, separate mines in the vicinity of the convent, all belonging to the same person (and that this person would be trying to negotiate some kind of room and board at the convent).

Chticli can probably tell us more about the context and whether either of your hypotheses is even remotely plausible.


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## lacrimae

Je m'étonne de la securité  de vos opinions. Stanna quoiqu'il soit ne doit pas indiquer richeses en ce cas, seulement ce que la personne possède.


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## lacrimae

Pero de aguas, baños y demás, nada.

Al menos conceda el beneficio de la duda como yo hago con sus platos y vasos " para comer y morar "


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## XiaoRoel

> ]Je m'étonne de la securité de vos opinions. Stanna quoiqu'il soit ne doit pas indiquer richeses en ce cas, seulement ce que la personne possède.


Estoy totalmente seguro de lo que digo. He transcrito miles de documentos notariales y stanna no es palabra rara en el sentido de menaje hecho con estaño. Por si a alguien, después de la referencia compostelana, le quedase alguna duda, he aquí lo que dice el Du Cange:


> 3. STANNUM, Vas stanneum, quævis supellex ex stanno. Statuta Eccles. Nannet. apud Marten.
> tom. 4. Anecd. col. 958 : Patellarum. vero, Stannorum, mensarum et aliorum
> sufficientiam utensilium duorum aut trium proximorum rectorum arbitrio commîttimus
> æstimandam. Inventar. ann. 1379. ex Schedis Cl. V. Lancelot :
> Item tria parva Stanna modici valoris.... Item unum Stannum parvum..... Item duo
> magna Stanna.


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