# Fokionos Negri



## Renavere

Hello, 
Could somebody please provide a word for word translation of *Fokionos Negri* (Street name in Athens)? Is Fokionos a name? 
Thank you.


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## διαφορετικός

The street has the name of the following man:
Φωκίων Νέγρης - Βικιπαίδεια
I just don't know ...

how to build the genitive of "Φωκίων Νέγρης" (Greek street names usually contain genitives), i.e. _why_ it's "Φωκίωνος Νέγρη"
the possible meaning of the name of the man


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## Renavere

Thank you so much, you were very helpful by giving me the Wikipedia link. I'm doing a translation and need a footnote explaining the street name, and the information in Latin letters is very limited.


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## διαφορετικός

My pleasure.


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## Perseas

διαφορετικός said:


> I just don't know ...
> 
> how to build the genitive of "Φωκίων Νέγρης" (Greek street names usually contain genitives), i.e. _why_ it's "Φωκίωνος Νέγρη"


But you built it! It's indeed Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.


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## Helleno File

As we've seen before street names are quite often slightly different from modern demotic Greek having been created in the nineteenth or earlier part of the 20th centuries and written in official katharevousa Greek.  In this case it's a man's name.  Presumably there were names that were declined in katharevousa as well as common nouns - ??  I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -ον*τ*ος.


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## διαφορετικός

Perseas said:


> But you built it! It's indeed Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.


Well, I just copied it from a street map. (I found it by searching for "Fokionos Negri", which is the term given in the original post.)



Helleno File said:


> I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -ον*τ*ος.


That's what I thought, too.

P.S.:
But the _noun_ ενδιαφέρον is not writen with "-ων", but with "-ον". The adjective (or participle): ενδιαφέρων.


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## bearded

Helleno File said:


> I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -ον*τ*


Sure, it's different from the participial declension.
 There are other illustrious examples of names in -on/-onos: the most famous is Πλάτων (Platon/-onos).


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## sotos

Helleno File said:


> I note that Φοκίων -> Φοκίωνος is a different genitive form from that of masculine adjectives ending in -ων that become -ον*τ*ος.


Yes. In other cases, Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδοντος (also a street name). It  has to do with the stem of the word. Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive. But then, if you want to know the stem, you must know the genitive


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## Helleno File

Thanks Sotos and Bearded. Very helpful. It's complicated! Not having a background in AG I didn't know about Πλάτων.


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## ioanell

διαφορετικός said:


> Greek street names usually contain genitives


To my knowledge, and if I 'm not wrong, not usually but always Greek street (and square) names contain a genitive, a genitive of the name of a person (real or mythical), a historic site/event, a mountain, a river, an institution, etc. denoting that the street (or square) was given its name (as in all languages, I guess) in their honour [προς τιμήν τού …/τής …/τών …(in genitive case]. Αncient nominative _Φωκίων, _MoGr nominative _Φωκίων_ and _Φωκίωνας_, ancient genitive _τοῦ Φωκίωνος_, MoGr genitive _του Φωκίωνα_, ancient and MoGr accusative _τον Φωκίωνα_, ancient vocative _Φωκίων_, MoGr vocative either _Φωκίων_ or [demotic] _Φωκίωνα_.                                                                                                                                                                                                 

In general, active voice (masculine) participles of the present tense end in -ων/-οντος, such as γράφων/γράφοντος or (if the verbs are contracted) in - ῶν / ῶντος or -ῶν / οῦντος, e.g. ἀγαπῶν / ἀγαπῶντος, ποιῶν / ποιοῦντος, δηλῶν / δηλοῦντος. A certain category of masculine names of the third declension are declined as Πλάτων / Πλάτωνος, Φαίδων / Φαίδωνος, Ζήνων / Ζήνωνος, but there are some of them ending like the (contracted in - ῶν / ῶντος ) participles, such as Ξενοφῶν / Ξενοφῶντος, Ἀντιφῶν / Ἀντιφῶντος. As Sotos correctly says “Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive”; the specific example Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδ-οντος is a compound name of the adjective εὐρύς and the _participle _μέδων / μέδοντος [< verb μέδω=protect, rule over], hence Ευρυμέδ-*οντ*ος.

Note: the only exception, as far as I know, where genitive is not needed is the (Roman) Εγνατία Οδός in Thessaloniki, where the name Εγνατία (from Latin: Via Egnatia) defines the noun Οδός as an “adjective” and one shouldn’t say, e.g. “_στην οδό Εγνατίας αριθ. 35_ [a very common mistake, due to the usual genitive]” but “_στην οδό Εγνατία αριθ. 35_”. In recent decades the same adjectival use applies to the names of motorways, such as “η Εγνατία Οδός” “της Εγνατίας Οδού”, “η Ιονία Οδός” “της Ιονίας Οδού”, etc.



διαφορετικός said:


> the possible meaning of the name of the man


The name Φωκίων (also the name of a famous Ancient Athenian general and politician, after whom several streets in cities across Greece have been named) comes from the name of the mythical hero Φώκος, who gave his name to the Greek prefecture of Φωκίς / Φωκίδα.



διαφορετικός said:


> But the _noun_ ενδιαφέρον is not writen with "-ων", but with "-ον".


The noun ενδιαφέρον is a nominalized _neuter_ participle of the verb ἐνδιαφέρω (ὁ ἐνδιαφέρων, ἡ ενδιαφέρουσα, τὸ ἐνδιαφέρον), hence the ending “-ον”.


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## Renavere

Thank you all so much. There's a lot to consider for me, doing a translation of the novel Those Who are Loved by Victoria Hislop. She gives lots of Greek (spelt in Latin) street names, and because in my language (Lthuanian) genitive inflections are also added, I'm afraid to add two inflections. 

I also would like to ask, (or should I maybe start a separate thread for a new topic – if yes, I will do it) about the *Patission Avenue* in Athens. Having considered what you said about inflections, am I right in thinking that Patission is a genitive form of Patissia?


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## διαφορετικός

Renavere said:


> I also would like to ask, (or should I maybe start a separate thread for a new topic – if yes, I will do it) about the *Patission Avenue* in Athens.


Yes, I think you should start a new thread for that.


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## Αγγελος

Renavere said:


> Having considered what you said about inflections, am I right in thinking that Patission is a genitive form of Patissia?


Absolutely. Πατήσια is a neighborhood of Athens, just north of Κυψέλη, which is the neighborhood around Φωκίωνος Νέγρη. 

You might wish to know that Φωκίωνος Νέγρη used to be a torrent and that it was covered and turned into a broad, tree-lined avenue in the late 1930's. In the 1950's and 1960's it was full of cafés and restaurants (_Select _and _Oriental _were two famous pasty shops); it was a place housewives would go to for coffee and cake and take their children out to play on the grass, but it also had a very lively and inevitably somewhat shady night life. It is still crowded on summer evenings, even though it has gone down in recent decades.


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## Renavere

Αγγελος said:


> Absolutely. Πατήσια is a neighborhood of Athens, just north of Κυψέλη, which is the neighborhood around Φωκίωνος Νέγρη.
> 
> You might wish to know that Φωκίωνος Νέγρη used to be a torrent and that it was covered and turned into a broad, tree-lined avenue in the late 1930's. In the 1950's and 1960's it was full of cafés and restaurants (_Select _and _Oriental _were two famous pasty shops); it was a place housewives would go to for coffee and cake and take their children out to play on the grass, but it also had a very lively and inevitably somewhat shady night life. It is still crowded on summer evenings, even though it has gone down in recent decades.


Thank you. In the book I'm translating the author writes about the street. Interesting to know and great thing to be able to consult REAL Greeks


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## Αγγελος

Renavere said:


> Thank you. In the book I'm translating the author writes about the street. Interesting to know and great thing to be able to consult REAL Greeks


Real Greeks born and raised in Patissia, whose godfather lived right on Fokionos Negri in the 1950's


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## ioanell

Renavere said:


> Interesting to know and great thing to be able to consult REAL Greeks


After your reaction, are the rest who contributed to your query to assume that, although you used plural, by "REAL Greeks" you meant just a specific person?


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## Renavere

ioanell said:


> After your reaction, are the rest who contributed to your query to assume that, although you used plural, by "REAL Greeks" you meant just a specific person?


Please no offence, of course I meant everybody, that's exactly why I used plural.


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## διαφορετικός

ioanell said:


> A certain category of masculine names of the third declension are declined as Πλάτων / Πλάτωνος, Φαίδων / Φαίδωνος, Ζήνων / Ζήνωνος, but there are some of them ending like the (contracted in - ῶν / ῶντος ) participles, such as Ξενοφῶν / Ξενοφῶντος, Ἀντιφῶν / Ἀντιφῶντος. As Sotos correctly says “Suffix of nominative alone does not determine the genitive”; the specific example Ευρυμέδων > Ευρυμέδ-οντος is a compound name of the adjective εὐρύς and the _participle _μέδων / μέδοντος [< verb μέδω=protect, rule over], hence Ευρυμέδ-*οντ*ος.


Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")? Or can anybody think of a counterexample? (I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist except for participles like ενδιαφέρων - and for those given names.)


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## Αγγελος

διαφορετικός said:


> Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")? Or can anybody think of a counterexample? (I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist except for participles like ενδιαφέρων - and for those given names.)


Not really. We often say σου είμαι ευγνώμων, and everybody knows the movie Ο Χιτών (The Tunic) or ascribes misprints to the δαίμων του τυπογραφείου. Of course, if we want to refer to just any tunic or demon, we will normally say ο χιτώνας or δαίμονας.

What happens is that most third-declension nouns in -ων of ancient Greek, to the extent that they are still used, have switched to the first declension: δαίμονας, χιτώνας, just like χειμώνας (ancient χειμών) or καύσωνας (ancient καύσων). _Proper _nouns, however, are still used in their ancient form, both to refer to ancient Greeks (Plato will more often be referred to as Πλάτων than as Πλάτωνας, though the genitive is more likely to be του Πλάτωνα than του Πλάτωνος) and to their modern namesakes (Πλάτων is not an uncommon first name, as is Λέων, and even Βύρων, from Lord Byron, who to Greeks is something of a secular saint). Likewise, _adjectives _in -ων (of which there are not very many, but ευγνώμων, ισχυρογνώμων, βασιλόφρων, εθνικόφρων, αβρόφρων... can still be heard) are usually not adapted. Finally, in addition to actual participles in -ων (ο διδάσκων, ο επιζών, ο αιτών, το κυβερνών κόμμα...), which, if used at all, are always used in their ancient form, there are nouns and adjectives, such as παράγων, διάττων (=shooting star), δέων/δέουσα/δέον, προσήκων and the already mentioned ενδιαφέρων, which were originally participles and, though not perceived as such, are still used in their ancient form.
Admittedly, not a very clear explanation, but this is one of many points in modern Greek where the complex interplay between ancient grammar (mediated through καθαρεύουσα) and that of demotic Greek results in confusion and hesitation, not only for the foreign learner but for the native speakers as well


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## Αγγελος

It should be added (though you probably know that) that there are a few neuter nouns in -ον, historically also mostly participles, that are always declined after the ancient pattern, notably ον, παρόν, παρελθόν, μέλλον, ιόν, προϊόν, καθήκον...


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## ioanell

Some more information, almost strictly answering the questions.


διαφορετικός said:


> Is it true that in modern Greek the singular nominative ending "-ων" and the singular genitive ending "-ωνος" together for one single word occur only with masculine first names ("forenames", "Christian names", "given names")?


Yes, the specific endings in nominative and genitive occur *only* with masculine proper names, proper names which were passed down from AG into MoGr. Some more names also used in MoGr, apart from the afomentioned Φωκίων, Πλάτων, Φαίδων, Ζήνων in # 11 above, (some of them toponyms or names of sports clubs) are the following : [rather katharevousa-style] Αγάθων/Αγάθωνος [demotic form] Αγάθωνας/Αγάθωνα [and _so on with the rest_], Απόλλων/Απόλλωνος, Αρίων/Αρίωνος, Ίων/Ίωνος, Κίμων/Κίμωνος, Μαραθών/Μαραθώνος, Πλαταμών/Πλαταμώνος. There are also proper names in *-ων*/*-ονος*, coming down from AG, such as (persons) Αγαμέμνων/Αγαμέμνονος [demotic form] Αγαμέμνονας/Αγαμέμνονα [and _so on with the rest_], Ιάσων/Ιάσονος, Φιλήμων/Φιλήμονος, (rivers) Αλιάκμων/Αλιάκμονος, Στρυμών/Στρυμόνος, (ethnonyms) Μακεδών/Μακεδόνος, Μυρμιδών/Μυρμιδόνος (mentioned in history/literature/mythology).



διαφορετικός said:


> I guess that even the ending "-ων" alone for nominative singular does not exist


Always speaking about MoGr, there’s a good number of adjectives with a common ending *-ων* in nominative and *-ονος* in genitive for both genders, masculine and feminine, such as ο/η μείζων, του/της μείζονος [_and so on with the rest_], ο/η ειδήμων, ο/η ελεήμων, ο/η νοήμων, ο/η πολυπράγμων, ο/η σώφρων, etc.; there are also some other, more katharevousa-style, _common_ masculine nouns (not proper names), ending in *-ων*, *-ωνος*, such as πύθων/πύθωνος [demotic πύθωνας/πύθωνα], πώγων/πώγωνος, others ending in *-ων*, *-οντος*, such as λέων/λέοντος, [also proper name] Λέων/Λέοντος and finally the active voice present tense masculine participles ending in *-ων*, *-οντος*, such as λήγων [μήνας]/λήγοντος, επείγων [χαρακτήρας]/επείγοντος, διευθύνων [σύμβουλος] /διευθύνοντος, etc., or in –ών, -ώντος, such as κυβερνών [συνασπισμός or (neuter) κόμμα]/κυβερνώντος.

Note that the MoGr demotic nominative of the ancient third declension nouns emerged in the time of Koine Greek from the ancient accusative with the addition of a final -ς, that is e.g. acc. [τὸν] Πλάτωνα + ς > nom. [ο] Πλάτωνας; accordingly the genitive, in place of the ancient genitive τοῦ Πλάτωνος, became του Πλάτωνα without a final -ς; this was the process which proved catalytic for the formation of a vast number of modern Greek nouns, abolishing in practice the most part of the AG third declension in MoGr.


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