# أبوهم إمام هذا المسجد



## shuaibah

Which of the following sentences is correct:

أبوهم إمامٌ هذا المسجدُ.   1 
أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ.   2 

I think 1 is correct, but the solutions manual says 2 is correct. 

I think 2 is incorrect because of the following reasons:
- There is no reason for إمامٌ to be إمامُ.
-  There is no reason to have المسجِدِ since there is no harf-jarr.

Could this be an error in the solutions manual?


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## cherine

Hi,
Actually, the manual is correct.
إمامُ shouldn't take tanween as it's part of an iDaafa structure
المسجدِ takes a kasra because it's بدل من حرف الإشارة which means it takes the grammatical marker of the 7arf al-ishaara, which in this sentence is a مضاف إليه في محل جر 
If we remove haadha, we can say: أبوهم إمامُ المسجدِ whereas al-masjidi will be the muDaaf ilayhi.


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## ayed

shuaibah said:


> Which of the following sentences is correct:
> 
> *أبوهم إمامٌ لـهذا المسجدِ. 1 *
> *أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ. 2 *


I agree with Cherine.I am sure that she wants to say(*اسم إشارة*).Pay attention to the letters in *red* above


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## cherine

Yes, of course, Ayed. اسم إشارة not حرف إشارة I can't believe I made such a silly mistake 
Thanks for the correction


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## elroy

I would just like to point that that Ayed's sentence are both correct but mean different things:

أبوهم إمامٌ لـهذا المسجدِ. 1 - Their father is one of the imams of this mosque.

أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ. 2 - Their father is the imam of this mosque.


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## ayed

elroy said:


> I would just like to point that that Ayed's sentence are both correct but mean different things:
> 
> أبوهم إمامٌ لـهذا المسجدِ. 1 - Their father is one of the imams of this mosque.
> 
> أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ. 2 - Their father is the imam of this mosque.


*كم إمام للمسجد؟إمام أم إمامان؟*


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## asadxyz

ayed said:


> I agree with Cherine.I am sure that she wants to say(*اسم إشارة*).Pay attention to the letters in *red* above


 
Thanks a lot Ayed for this guidance.
*أبوهم إمامٌ لـهذا المسجدِ. 1 *

*أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ. 2*

*It means one idea can be expressed in different ways.*


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## elroy

asadxyz said:


> *It means one idea can be expressed in different ways.*


 As I said above, the two sentences do not mean the same thing.


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## asadxyz

elroy said:


> As I said above, the two sentences do not mean the same thing.


Thanks Elroy 
But can you produce some evidence for the deduction of these two different meanings ? 
Thanks in advance.


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## Mahaodeh

In the case of إمامٌ لهذا المسجد, the statement does not directly say that there is more than one imaam, it indirectly implies that; I disagree with elroy slightly and would rather translate it as: "he is _an_ imaam of this masjid", which naturally differs very much from "he is _the _imaam of this masjid".  Being indefinite it implies a sort of contempt or little importance to the imaam.

To explain the differnece I would use another example:  هذا بيتنا, implies intmacy and would mean that "this is our house, the house we live in and care about".  While saying: هذا بيت لنا implies no intmacy at all and that we have little feelings and maybe even a slight contempt to that house so we are stating that "this is a house of ours", which indirectly implies that we have other houses and this is merely one of them.  Nothing important about it.

This is my two cents on the matter.


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## shuaibah

Analyzing sentence (2) *أبوهم إمامُ هذا المسجِدِ. 2*

أبوهم is a simple mudhaf and mudhaf-ilaih so I do not have any questions here.

In "إمامُ هذا المسجدِ", I was under the impression that nothing (like هذا) can come between a mudhaf and mudhaf ilaih. If this is an exception to the rule, then I would like to learn more about this. If any of you have a pointer to where this is discussed more in the reference grammar book by Karin Ryding, Please let me know 


Thank you for your responses.


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## elroy

هذا _is_ the مضاف إليه.  See Cherine's first post.


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## shuaibah

Elroy: Yes, I was referring to Cherine's post, but thanks for pointing out that هذا is the mudhaf ilaih. 

Cherine has clearly explained why there is a kasara in المسجدِ but would like some references to بدل من إسم الإشارة and مضاف إليه في محل جر some text. These terms are new to me, and I would like to learn more about them.


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## shuaibah

I think I got it now  For eg:

بيتُ إمامِ المسجدِ : house of the new imam
بيتُ إمامِ المسجدُ : the new house of the imam.

In my original sentence, المسجدِ has a kasara because المسجد is associated with هذا and not إمام. My problem was that I  did not realize that هذا was like إمام in my new example.


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## asadxyz

shuaibah said:


> I think I got it now  For eg:
> 
> بيتُ إمامِ المسجدِ : house of the new imam
> بيتُ إمامِ المسجدُ : the new house of the imam.
> 
> In my original sentence, المسجدِ has a kasara because المسجد is associated with هذا and not إمام. My problem was that I did not realize that هذا was like إمام in my new example.


Dear Shuaibah 
As far as grammatical analysis is concerned ,I think there is a difference between these two analogous sentences.
These sentences are 
بيت امام المسجد
امام هذاالمسجد
Let us take the first sentence :
بيت امام المسجد​ 
Bait = Mudhaaf 
Imam = Mudaaf iliah for bait but Mudhaaf for al –masjid
Al-masjid = Mudhaaf iliah ​ 
Let us take the second sentence :
امام هذاالمسجد
We divide this phrase into parts ​
امام = Mudhaaf 
هذاالمسجد = مركب اشاري =Mudhaaf iliah 
هذا = اسم الاشاره 
المسجد = مشاراليه 

So in the latter sentence it is not simply haadha which is Mudhaaf aliah rather whole Phrase.


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## cherine

ayed said:


> *كم إمام للمسجد؟إمام أم إمامان؟*


Ayed, some mosques can have more than one imam 
Besides, Elroy was commenting on the meaning of the "structure", regardless of the actual state of things 



Mahaodeh said:


> In the case of إمامٌ لهذا المسجد, the statement does not directly say that there is more than one imaam, it indirectly implies that; I disagree with elroy slightly and would rather translate it as: "he is _an_ imaam of this masjid", which naturally differs very much from "he is _the _imaam of this masjid". Being indefinite it implies a sort of contempt or little importance to the imaam.


Sorry Maha, but I don't see where is the contempt in the indifinite sentence.
But I agree with your translations. And I believe that the difference shown in the tranlsations back Elroy's words.


shuaibah said:


> In "إمامُ هذا المسجدِ", I was under the impression that nothing (like هذا) can come between a mudhaf and mudhaf ilaih. If this is an exception to the rule, then I would like to learn more about this.





shuaibah said:


> Cherine has clearly explained why there is a kasara in المسجدِ but would like some references to بدل من إسم الإشارة and مضاف إليه في محل جر some text. These terms are new to me, and I would like to learn more about them.


Shuaibah,
As I said, haadha is the muDaaf ilayh. What you need to check in your grammar book is the lesson about البدل . al-badal is a word that takes in the i3raab "instead of" (=badalan min) another word, for a reason or another.
In this sentence, haadha is a muDaaf ilayhi في محل جر which means: it _ought_ to have a kasra but didn't because it's مبني (= its tashkiil doesn't change). So the word following it takes the marker instead المسجدِ .


shuaibah said:


> بيتُ إمامِ المسجدِ : house of the new imam
> بيتُ إمامِ المسجدُ : the new house of the imam.
> 
> In my original sentence, المسجدِ has a kasara because المسجد is associated with هذا and not إمام. My problem was that I did not realize that هذا was like إمام in my new example.


First, there's no "new" in your Arabic sentences  And the second sentence is incorrect.
بيتُ إمامِ المسجدِ is the house of the mosque's imam
The house of the new imam: بيتُ الإمامِ الجديدِ
The new house of the imam بيتُ الإمامِ الجديدُ 
The differece can only be seen in the tashkiil of the word "al-jadiid": when it's like the one on بيت it's an adj. of the bayt, when it's like the one on الإمام it's an adj. of al-imaam.


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> Ayed, some mosques can have more than one imam
> Besides, Elroy was commenting on the meaning of the "structure", regardless of the actual state of things


I may be wrong (I certainly don't want to speak for someone else), but I think Ayed was using a play-on-words, made funny by the repetition of the syllable ام .


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## shuaibah

How would I say "Their father is the big Imam of this beautiful Masjid"?

Would it be: أبوهم أمامُ هذا المسجدِ الكبيرُ الجميلةِ


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## cherine

shuaibah said:


> How would I say "Their father is the big Imam of this beautiful Masjid"?
> Would it be: أبوهم أمامُ هذا المسجدِ الكبيرُ الجميلةِ


First, you shouldn't use a feminine adjective.

Second, the problem with having many adjectives in a sentence where all the words share the same grammatical gender is that it can mislead the reader of who's what.
So, in your sentence, we can be confused as to who's big: the father or the mosque.

So, I suggest a rephrasing like:
أبوهم هو الإمام الكبير لهذا المسجد الجميل


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