# Spanish in Canada & US



## 0stsee

Hello!

This question goes to Canadians and US Americans who learned Spanish in their respective home country:

When you learned Spanish, did you learn *vosotros/as* (+its conjugation & pronominal forms), and/or did you learn to pronounce Z like English voiceless TH?

Thank you!

Saludos,


0stsee


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## Athaulf

0stsee said:


> Hello!
> 
> This question goes to Canadians and US Americans who learned Spanish in their respective home country:
> 
> When you learned Spanish, did you learn *vosotros/as* (+its conjugation & pronominal forms), and/or did you learn to pronounce Z like English voiceless TH?



In my experience, Spanish taught here in Canada is normally of the Latin American variety, i.e. without the _vosotros_ forms and with "z" pronounced similar to English "s".


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## JamesM

Athaulf said:


> In my experience, Spanish taught here in Canada is normally of the Latin American variety, i.e. without the _vosotros_ forms and with "z" pronounced similar to English "s".


 
I haven't personally learned Spanish here but my children have and they had the same experience as athaulf.  They did have to conjugate using "vosotros" but I don't think they were rarely asked to use it.


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## cuchuflete

It may well be a function of age.  When I learned SP—a very brief high school introduction, followed by more serious university courses—the standard was Peninsular/Iberian Spanish, with the vosotros form and a clear distinction between the _z _sound and that of the _s_ or _c_.  Decades later, I believe that Latin American Spanish is the standard in teaching in the U.S. for pronunciation.  I tutored a high school student a few years ago, and he had to learn the vosotros form, although all the faculty members in the Spanish department were either Mexican or Puerto Rican.


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## Doingkermit

In class, 

we do not use vosotros and we pronounce a z like an "s" 

though, I'm also teaching my self outside of school and I'm using vosotros because if I'm going to speak spanish any time it will be in Spain.


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## TimLA

I learned "vosotros" as a theoretical word, and only heard it in Spain and on TV programs from Spain.
I've never used it...not even in Spain.
The same applies to "corathon" and other similar words (letze, grathias, thirco).
Living in "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de *los Ángeles* de Porciúncula" it's rare to hear any Spanish from Spain.


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## Cilantro y Perejil

As a high school Spanish teacher, I feel that it is important to expose my students to the diversity of the Spanish language.  Having studied in Spain, I have picked up Spain's accent.  My colleagues, however, have spent time in Latin American countries.  By the time students have studied four years at our school, they have been exposed to a variety of accents.  

I do teach the vosotros form, however, I don't test it.  In their notes, the students see the verb endings, possessive form, pronoun, etc...however, there aren't any vosotros questions on the test (unless I throw them in as extra credit )

When I teach pronunciation, I try to model several accents for my students (WR is great with the pronunciation feature! There are other sites that are similar.)

I want my students to realize that Spanish isn't just a one-dimensional language.

CyP


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## mirx

I just wanted to point out that in Mexican elementary schools, at leatst the ones in my State,  the use of "vosotros" is taught  with the rest of the pronouns. By the time the pupils learn vosotros they already speak Spanish, so of course they won't use it.

Pronunciation is also taught, althought not from a phonological point of view, it's just a cultural fact that kids should be aware of.

Cheers.


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## jinti

In my high school Spanish classes in Pennsylvania during the '80s, _vosotros_ didn't exist.  There was either a blank spot or "---" in the textbook conjugation charts where it would have gone.  There were vague rumors circulating among the students that there was a _vosotros_ form, but its shadowy existence was not confirmed or really cared that much about since it wasn't going to be on the test. 

We were not taught the _z_ as _th_ pronunciation.  However, from time to time we did see movies and listen to native speaker audio tapes which featured that pronunciation.


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## 0stsee

Cilantro y Perejil said:


> As a high school Spanish teacher, I feel that it is important to expose my students to the diversity of the Spanish language.  Having studied in Spain, I have picked up Spain's accent.  My colleagues, however, have spent time in Latin American countries.  By the time students have studied four years at our school, they have been exposed to a variety of accents.
> 
> I do teach the vosotros form, however, I don't test it.  In their notes, the students see the verb endings, possessive form, pronoun, etc...however, there aren't any vosotros questions on the test (unless I throw them in as extra credit )
> 
> When I teach pronunciation, I try to model several accents for my students (WR is great with the pronunciation feature! There are other sites that are similar.)
> 
> I want my students to realize that Spanish isn't just a one-dimensional language.
> 
> CyP



You're right. The Mexican and Cuban accents, for example, are very different from each other.

Are your students exposed to "vos", which I read is used by 30% of Spanish speakers?
I was surprised that some of the people I know from Latin America never use "tú"!


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## Cilantro y Perejil

I haven't formally studied the use of "vos", so I don't feel that I have the ability to teach it well, but I do tell the students about it.  It comes up when I teach the difference between tú and Usted in first year.  I also bring it up in second year when we study Guatemala, and in fourth year, there is a lengthy unit on Argentina when it comes up again.  Basically, I tell the students it exists and what it means, but we don't study the verb conjugation or pronoun forms for it.  

CyP


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## Orreaga

Cilantro y Perejil said:


> As a high school Spanish teacher, I feel that it is important to expose my students to the diversity of the Spanish language.  Having studied in Spain, I have picked up Spain's accent.  My colleagues, however, have spent time in Latin American countries.  By the time students have studied four years at our school, they have been exposed to a variety of accents.



This also reflects my experience. Learning Spanish in schools in the Northeast US in the 70's, some teachers used Latin American accents, and others used Peninsular accents, but the textbooks all taught "vosotros" 2nd person plural forms as the norm. My school sponsored class trips to Spain, but not Latin America.  When I went to Peru as an exchange student I remember getting strange looks when I tried using "vosotros" forms and learned quickly to switch to "ustedes", which seemed excessively formal to me when speaking to other kids my age and younger.


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## VivaReggaeton88

In my high school in New York, I was never taught vosotros or vos. Acutally, I was taught many things that later in my life I found out were incorrect. Also, none of my teachers were native speakers, so that could have something to do with it


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## Orreaga

I think the answer lies in the background of the faculty at any given school, which varies from school to school, so I don't think there is necessarily a "national preference" for teaching a certain kind of Spanish in American schools. If I remember correctly two of my high school Spanish teachers were Italians who used a Peninsular accent (and doubled as Italian teachers), one was an American who also used a Peninsular accent, and one was Venezuelan, the only native speaker.  At university there was also a mixture of Latin American and Peninsular varieties among the faculty.  Students were free to speak whichever variety they chose.

Here in New Mexico there is a "heritage language" program at some universities, which seeks to preserve and teach the local dialect, which is very different from modern varieties of Spanish and preserves certain archaic words and verb forms.


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## Forero

When I was in High School (1966-1969), we were taught the vosotros forms of the verbs and pronouns from the beginning and were told they were only used in literature except in Spain.  We were taught nothing of the "vos" of South America.

We did not hear about different sounds for z and s until third year, but the distinction is easy to pick up from the spelling - except that I still don't know what to do when z occurs before s or s before c.  Perhaps only the first is pronounced?


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## 0stsee

Forero said:


> When I was in High School (1966-1969), we were taught the vosotros forms of the verbs and pronouns from the beginning and were told they were only used in literature except in Spain.  We were taught nothing of the "vos" of South America.
> 
> We did not hear about different sounds for z and s until third year, but the distinction is easy to pick up from the spelling - except that I still don't know what to do when z occurs before s or s before c.  Perhaps only the first is pronounced?



Perhaps at that time "vos" was considered as a deviation of Spanish, even today there are people who consider "vos" to be incorrect.

I don't intend to discuss this last question further, but I'm curious about Z before S. Somehow I couldn't find any word containing such combination. Could you give an example please? Thank you.


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## jmx

Forero said:


> ... I still don't know what to do when z occurs before s or s before c. Perhaps only the first is pronounced?


It depends on the variation of Spanish that you speak, for example in mine both are pronounced:

piscina
la voz suena


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## 0stsee

jmartins said:


> It depends on the variation of Spanish that you speak, for example in mine both are pronounced:
> 
> piscina
> la voz suena



Aha!
So the Z before S exists in a phrase.

Thank you, Jmartins!
I pronounce them as "picina" and "la boh suena". Much easier than pronouncing both.


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## roxcyn

No, it's up to the teacher to decide. Therefore we never learned it, but it was in our books so I did question it to my teacher.  Later while learning at the university we did learn vosotros, vos and many of the pronunciations in our linguistic course and various courses.  In Spain I did use vosotros form because that's what they use there.  It's very easy to get the hang of.  It depends on what the department and teachers decide on.  At least the students should have some exposure to vosotros (and possible "vos") 

Pablo


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## VivaReggaeton88

roxcyn said:


> No, it's up to the teacher to decide. Therefore we never learned it, but it was in our books so I did question it to my teacher.  Later while learning at the university we did learn vosotros, vos and many of the pronunciations in our linguistic course and various courses.  In Spain I did use vosotros form because that's what they use there.  It's very easy to get the hang of.  It depends on what the department and teachers decide on.  At least the students should have some exposure to vosotros (and possible "vos")
> 
> Pablo



You are correct. However, I don't see the point in not teaching vos in the US or Canada.

1- It would not take long to teach at all
2- It is very much like tú, without the stem change, so the kids would get the hang of it
3- If you live in the US/Canada, you are more likely to be around people from Latin America than from Spain

It really makes no sense to me.


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## vince

Here in Canada we don't really learn vosotros except as a verb conjugation we have to memorize. It's always "ustedes".

When I see words like "Mirad!" or "Os gusta...?" I have to do a double take to figure out what they are saying, hehe.


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## MarcB

When I first studied Spanish in the US vosotros was taught but we were told that it is only used in Spain. Also the th pronunciation was taught but only used in Spain. We were taught that s for z and c were used in Latin America and Southern Spain. The generation before us was taught that European Spanish was a prestigious form of the language but LA was preferred for us.
The LA population is greater, both from a world and a US point of view.
Vos was never taught. I learned it from travel to several countries in LA.
Today most of the US and Canada learn LA Spanish and European Spanish is often ignored.


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## Kibramoa

_*This question goes to Canadians and US Americans who learned Spanish in their respective home country:
When you learned Spanish, did you learn vosotros/as (+its conjugation & pronominal forms), and/or did you learn to pronounce Z like English voiceless TH?* _ 

Here are the two cents from a Spanish instructor at a U.S. university. The department policy was to teach the _vosotros _form always, in all the tenses, and from beginning to advanced levels.  The reason was that the faculty rotated and came from different Spanish-speaking countries, so students needed to be aware of _vosotros _in case the next semester they would have an instructor from Spain.  _Vos _was never mentioned, unless there was a "culture note" in the book.  The pronunciation of Z = th, again, was mentioned on a "culture note" or when it was brought up by a student who had had an instructor from Spain the previous semester.   The tests and exams were created and designed by the level coordinator so that all students would have the same test/exam.  There were always 2 or 3 questions that would deal with _vosotros_. Not too many questions, just enough to remind students that _vosotros _is important.   

I do not know if the students were aware of this department policy nor do I know if they ever noticed that _vosotros _was always tested.


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## patman0623

My experience, to back up everyone else:

It's taught only enough so we recognize it, and mostly ignored after that. I never used it in speech, and nor did any of the other students. However, when I hear the form, I don't have any trouble knowing its meaning.


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## raptor

I've had different teachers who learned their Spanish in different parts of the world, so one from Latin America who we didn't learn vosotros from (or th as z, and so on), but that was also first year. After that, my teacher learned it in Spain, and pronounced th's as z's, but only taught us that vosotros is rarely used, and that we don't really need to know it. I know what it means, but not how to conjugate it, and as Vince was saying, I would also have to pause to remember it if someone said it. I prefer the Latin American way of pronunciation, if only because it doesn't sound like a lisp


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## mal67

I first studied Spanish at university in the late '80s.  At the time, I remember that the _vosotros_ form was mentioned (and included in the textbooks) but that we were told we wouldn't be tested on it -- the feeling was that this was an odd grammatical feature used only in Spain (which was a long ways from California), and thus it was irrelevant and/or unimportant.  Likewise, the letter z and the soft c were pronounced as s.  (Ironically, I have ended up speaking with a pretty strong Madrid accent and lexicon...)

My third semester teacher was from Spain, but I don't remember her using the _vosotros_ form, and thus I suspect that she only used _ustedes_ with the class, in order to avoid confusion and/or to comply with what may have been a departmental policy.

The _vos_ form was never mentioned, as far as I recall, and was quite a surprise to me when I moved to Costa Rica a couple of years later.

I see that some of the posters here were taught the _vosotros _form.  Aside from when they were taught, I wonder if the location makes a difference?  I could easily imagine that students in the US West and Southwest are taught Latin American Spanish, while those on the East Coast (or at least in the Northeast) get more exposure to Spanish as it is spoken in Spain.


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## Chtipays

mal67 said:


> The _vos_ form was never mentioned, as far as I recall, and was quite a surprise to me when I moved to Costa Rica couple of years later.



The vos form is used in many places in South and Central America it was surprising for me to find that even in some towns next to Guatemala in México they were also using the vos form, while we don't use it at all in the rest of Mexico.


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## jinti

mal67 said:


> I could easily imagine that students in the US West and Southwest are taught Latin American Spanish, while those on the East Coast (or at least in the Northeast) get more exposure to Spanish as it is spoken in Spain.


Having grown up in the northeastern US, I can telll you I don't think we were any more exposed to Spanish as spoken in Spain than you were.  There just weren't -- and aren't, to my knowledge -- that many Spaniards around.  On the other hand, my town had many Puerto Ricans and there were also some Mexican migrant workers.

We just skipped _vosotros_ in school.  I think none of my teachers used it naturally, and you'd never hear it in the Spanish you heard on the streets in town.  It just didn't seem very relevant to us.


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## tvdxer

0stsee said:


> Hello!
> 
> This question goes to Canadians and US Americans who learned Spanish in their respective home country:
> 
> When you learned Spanish, did you learn *vosotros/as* (+its conjugation & pronominal forms), and/or did you learn to pronounce Z like English voiceless TH?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Saludos,
> 
> 
> 0stsee



We did not learn the vosotros form in high school, but I did at the university level.  

As for "z", we learned to pronounce it as an English "s".  I don't think Castillian pronunciation is very commonly taught in the U.S.


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## DiabloScott

In my earliest classes in middle America, the vosotros form was omitted from all verb conjugations. It was mentioned but we were told it was an anachronism and no one used it. Usted and ustedes were presented as being the norm, even tú was not emphasized.

In the next few years we had more exposure to it and were told some people in Spain used it but it was optional whether we wanted to learn it and was never tested.

Vos was mentioned even less. I don't think I ever saw a conjugation table with vos but I did see some writing examples.

At university level we weren't tested on verb conjugations but if we used them we were expected to use them correctly. No one was ever penalized for using vosotros or vos conjugations and most students by this time had adopted a favorite regional style of speaking including the accent, pronunciation, and verb forms.


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## Guillote1

Just an observation from a South American... you guys are making many distinctions between LA and Iberic branches on Spanish from a teaching standpoint... but the truth is, at least down here in Argentina, we are taught "yo, tú, él, nosotros, vosotros, ellos".
We use "Vos" instead of tú (with all the alterations that it brings to the language), and ustedes instead of vosotros... but, at school, we are taught the "formal" ways of the language. Or at least we were in my day.
Countries where "vos" is used as here are quite rare though, so while "tú" sounds foreign, we don't find it odd at all. That sort of thing comes with exposure to a certain culture.
For instance, I was taught British English at school. But these days, through interaction with people, movies, TV and text, I speak American-ish English. So, in reality, wether you are taught Iberic or LA Spanish won't make much of a difference. 

And BTW... "Latin American Spanish" does not really exist as a single. There are A LOT of different countries in latin america, and most of them have different branches of Spanish... some even radicaly different.


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## clairecc

I couldn't agree more, Guillote1! 
I'm also from Argentina, and the same happened to me. At school I was taught "yo, tú, él, nosotros, vosotros, ellos". But here we never use the "tú" or the "vosotros" form.
I also learned British English at school, but when it comes to my every day use of the language, I speak and write American-ish English.


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## BeautifulMorenita

Here in Texas, at the very beginner levels you're shown all the conjugations but you're not required to memorize, to be able to recognize or to be able to use vosotros. In the upper levels, you're not shown  it anymore and you don't use it except in peninsular literature. Then when you take the test to be certified to teach, it's nowhere on the test, so I as a teacher am only vaguely familiar with the form, so of course, I do the same thing my teachers did which was present it, but require nothing be done with it.


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## Diablo919

At my school, we learned vosotros the first year, but haven't touched it since. (I'm in my 4th year now) We just switched to an AP book, so it is more of a college-level textbook, and along came audio tapes. It was the first time i heard people pronounce the voiceless TH, or people that drop their S's (puertorriquenos?)


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## MarX

Guillote1 said:


> Countries where "vos" is used as here are quite rare though


Voseo is present in basically all Latin American countries except in the Carribean.

Countries where its use is dominant (and where *tú* often sounds quite "foreign") are:
1. Argentina
2. Uruguay
3. Paraguay
4. Nicaragua
5. Costa Rica
6. El Salvador
7. Honduras
8. Guatemala

They have a population of approximately 88 million.

Not to mention the densely populated Paisa region in Colombia + the Pacific coast + regions bordering Venezuela, Ecuador's Sierra down to Esmeraldas, Northeastern Venezuela which has the state with the largest population (Zulia), eastern Bolivia including the capital, etc.  

But *vos* is taught only in Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Argentina, Uruguay, as far as I know, whereas *vosotros *is taught in all countries (although apparently some Mexicans didn't learn it at school).

But let's concentrate on the US and Canada, shall we? 

Saludos


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## Misao

I, as a Spaniard, am deeply affected by this issue. I had no idea that the "vosotros" form was so mistreated in North America, and I work as coordinator of SFL programs and meet people from around the world at any time...
 
Of course I know the variations and anachronism of Spanish and that in LA countries "ustedes/usted" and "vos" are commonly and daily used, but as Guillote1 said, I also learnt "yo, tu, él (ella), nosotros, vosotros, ellos", but I also learnt that "usted/ustedes" is the form you have to use to address a stranger, it is the formal form (as Sie in German). We used to use it also to talk to our teachers at school, but children are loosing education as time goes by (shame...)
 
So I would ask you to please learn "vosotros" and never forget it and learn how to use it...
 
Thanks
 
Misao
 
P.S.: Oh, and z sounds like th in "think" and before c and s (at least here in Spain), so you can say PISCINA /pisөina/ or ABORREZCO /aborreөko/, from the verb "aborrecer"


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## Mate

*Moderator note:*

1. Please keep the discussion focused on the main question.

2.  Please read or re-read the *Cultural forum guidelines:
*_
The purpose of this forum is to help participants and other readers learn about cultural aspects of different countries and groups of people. It is neither a chat board, nor a place to advocate or promote personal viewpoints about the way things ought to be; rather, it seeks to help us learn how things are, and how they are changing over time, and not what I think of things and how I would like them to go._


Thanks.


Mateamargo
CD moderator


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