# Sense & meaning



## ThomasK

Can you tell me what words you use in your language for 'the sense/ meaning of life' and 'the meaning of a word'? A note on roots of those words is welcome too. 

Dutch:
- *zin *: the root seems to be _sentire_, to feel/ perceive, as in the English sense
- _*betekenis*_, be-*teken*-is (_nis _perhaps), referring to the meaning of 'sign', maybe linked with showing, pointing at, even also with 'teach' in English


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## Awwal12

Russian:
- *смысл* "smysl" ['smɨs(ə)ɫ]. Cognate of the words мысль (thought) and мыслить (to think). The prefix has quite a wide variety of meanings, I am not sure which was supposed to be here.
- *значение* "znacheniye" [znɐ'ʨenʲɪ(j)ə]. Cognate of the word знак (sign). Another meaning of the word "значение", quite naturally, is "significance".
I also must add than in some cases the first word can be used instead of the second (meaning "meaning"), but not vice versa.


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## learnerr

As far as I know, in English both words are possible in both contexts. They (the English) just happen to have two stocks of words, one Germanic, the other derived from Latin and Greek. 


ThomasK said:


> Can you tell me what words you use in your language for 'the sense/ meaning of life' and 'the meaning of a word'? A note on roots of those words is welcome too.


Russian:
- значение (loosely corresponds to the French _la valeur_);
- смысл (loosely corresponds to the French _le sens_).

The second word is more, so to say, 'plain', the first word may be used in the same context as the second when the second word was already overused. Of course, they have their shades of meaning that make them more or less suitable in a given context, too. *The first word, значение,* is related to the noun знак ('sign') and to the verb значить ('to mean', in a wide sense of the word; also 'to matter', '[about something or somebody] to appear important because the thing in question implies something else as well'), it is in fact a noun derived from the second verb, which is in its turn derived from the simple noun; as such, this verb appears to be similar to the French counterpart not only in its use, but also, and especially, in its, I would say, "internal meaning". *The second word, смысл,* is related to the verb смыслить (to be able to connect ideas, to be able to to work out conclusions) and, it looks like, to мыслить (to think, although usually another word is used in this meaning, думать), and also to the noun мысль (a thought); the latter verb is the same as the former verb, but without the prefix с-, that means "co-", "together", and is pronounced as "s-".


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## arielipi

Oh dear thomas, in hebrew sense gets many words, meaning gets three.

meaning
to mean - להתכון lehitcaven - כ-ו-נ
meaning - משמעות mashma'ut
understanding (of something, i.e. one understands something) - מובן muvan

sense
(one of the five) sense(s) - חוש khush
sensement, sensing, feeling - תחושה tkhusha
feelings, senses - רגש regesh
consciousness, awareness - תודעה toda'a, הכרה hakara
brains - שכל sechel
intelligence (manufactured intellignece in hebrew uses this word, though in general it is wisdom) - בינה bina
knowledge-state, logic - דעת , da'at, הגיון higayon
understanding (of something, i.e. one understands something) - מובן muvan
interpretation  - פירוש perush
explanation - הסבר hesber
use, value, benefit (though i also would add gain) - ועלת to'elet


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

*«Το νόημα της ζωής»* [to 'no.ima tis zo'is]
"The-_neuter definite article nominative singular_ meaning-_neuter noun nominative singular_ of-_feminine definite article genitive singular_ life-_feminine noun gen. sing__._"

*«Νόημα»* ['no.ima] (neut.) --> _that which is perceived, purpose, meaning_ _in general_ < Classical neut. noun *«νόημα» nóēmă* (same meanings) < Classical masc. noun *«νόος/νοῦς» nóŏs* (uncontracted) */noûs* (contracted) --> _mind, sense, intellect, reason, purpose, aim_ (with obscure etymology).
*«Ζωή»* [zo'i] (fem.) --> _life_ < Classical fem. noun *«ζωὴ» zōḕ* (also *«ζοὴ» zŏḕ*, Doric *«ζωὰ» zōà* & *«ζόα» zóā*, Aeolic *«ζοΐα» zŏḯā*); PIE *gʷeih₃-/*gʷieh₃-, _to live_ cf Lat. vīta > It. vita, Sp./Por. vida, Fr. vie, Rom. viață; Proto-Slavic *životъ > OCS животъ > Bul./Rus. живот, BCS живот/život; Cz./Svk život.

Sense: 
i/ *«Αίσθηση»* ['esθisi] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«αἴσθησις» aístʰĕsīs* --> _perception, knowledge, sense (i.e. physiological sense, sense of humour/time)_ < PIE *h₂eu-is-, _to perceive_ cf Skt. आविस् (āvís), adv. _openly, manifestly, evidently_; Hit. u-uḫ-ḫi, _to see_; Lat. audīre, _to hear, listen_.
ii/ *«Σύνεση»* ['sinesi] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«σύνεσις» súnĕsīs* --> _faculty of quick comprehension, sagacity, knowledge_ < compound; prefix, preposition, and adverb *«σύν» sún* (Att. *«ξύν» ksún*) --> _with, together_ (with obscure etymology) + Classical v. *«ἵημι» híēmĭ* --> _to send away, let go, throw, hurl_; PIE *(H)ieh₁-, _to throw_ cf Lat. iacere, _to throw, cast, hurl_.

Sense (verb):
i/ *«Αισθάνομαι»* [es'θanome] < Classical deponent verb *«αἰσθάνομαι» aistʰắnŏmai* --> _to perceive, understand, apprehend by the senses_ < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«αἴσθησις» aístʰĕsīs* (for its etymology see above).
ii/ *«Νιώθω»* or *«νοιώθω»* (both spellings are common) ['ɲoθo] < Classical fem. noun *«ἔννοια» énnoiā* --> _act of thinking, reflection, cogitation, notion, conception_; compound, prefix, preposition, and adverb *«ἐν» ĕn* --> _in, within_ (PIE *h₁en-, _in_ cf Lat. in > It. in, Fr./Sp. en, Por. em, Rom. în; Proto-Germanic *in > Ger. in, Eng. in, Dt. in, Isl. í, D./Nor./Swe. i) + Classical masc. noun *«νόος/νοῦς»* (see above).


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## ThomasK

Thanks, everyone. Now, I can see clearly that  Greek uses /noma/ for the the sens of life, but I am not so sure about what a Russian speaker would use. Your information, Learnerr, is quite interesting, but I am still not sure. 

 Interesting is that 'zin' can also refer to the five senses,but as 'zintuig', 'sense tool' AND to direction. Maybe interesting to know is that 'zingeving' (giving sense [to life]) is now fairly popular as a whole branch focusing on contributing to how people can find (make ?) sense in life...

@Apmoy: we don't link feelings with 'sense' really, and in fact few of the numerous meanings of 'sense' that you list. But that may be interesting. However, I notice that those are meanings and words that you link with 'sense'. What is the basis of that? Your own intuition? (Thanks !)


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## learnerr

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, everyone. Now, I can see clearly that  Greek uses /noma/ for the the sens of life, but I am not so sure about what a Russian speaker would use. Your information, Learnerr, is quite interesting, but I am still not sure.


For the meaning of life, the only possible phrase is "смысл жизни". "Значение" may be assigned to words just like "смысл" can, but when they are assigned not to words but to things, they differ a lot: the first says what the thing means for something else, where something else is a known object, the second says what the thing is and what is the reason for its existence, i.e. how should we think of it.


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## ahmedcowon

In Arabic:

"Meaning" is معنى /maʕna/ (meaning of life = maʕna al-ḥayaa)

"Sense" is حس /ḥiss/ (sense of humor = ḥiss al-fukaaha)


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Ahmed, but how do you translate 'the meaning of a word'? /maʕna/ as well? The /ḥiss/ is more like a feeling, I'd say...


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## arielipi

ahmedcowon said:


> In Arabic: hebrew
> 
> "Meaning" is معنى /maʕna/ (meaning of life = maʕna al-ḥayaa)  משמעות החיים mashma'ut hakhayim
> 
> "Sense" is حس /ḥiss/ (sense of humor = ḥiss al-fukaaha)


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## SuperXW

There are several relative characters in Chinese, and they form quite a few words.

The most common counterpart of "sense", I think is 感 "gan3". The character describes "feeling".
The most common counterpart of "meaning", I think is 意義 "yi4yi4".   

In Chinese, the two concepts are very different. We say 生命的意義 "the meaning/purpose of the life", but not "the sense/feeling of the life".
We say 幽默感 "sense of humor", but not "meaning of humor".
We say 詞語的意義 "meaning of the word", but not "sense of the word".


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## ThomasK

Well, the strange thing about 'sense' is that its meaning is so diverse: feeling, meaning, direction, ... I thought that the words are not often interchangeable in Germanic languages either, but 'sense' and 'meaning of life' seem both possible in English (though 'meaning' is more common), not in Dutch.


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## learnerr

ThomasK said:


> Well, the strange thing about 'sense' is that its meaning is so diverse: feeling, meaning, direction, ...


In Russian the word "sense" as in "sense of humor" or "five senses" is translated with the word "чувство", "feeling", but this word cannot be applied to meanings of words.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: we don't link feelings with 'sense' really, and in fact few of the numerous meanings of 'sense' that you list. But that may be interesting. However, I notice that those are meanings and words that you link with 'sense'. What is the basis of that? Your own intuition? (Thanks !)


Well Greek uses *«αίσθηση»* ['esθisi] (fem.) for _sense_, and *«αίσθημα»* ['esθima] (neut.) for _feeling_, both have the same PIE root *h₂eu-is-, _to perceive_.
Also, the verb for sensing, and feeling, is identical, the meaning of sensing is interwoven with feeling: *«αισθάνομαι»* [es'θanome] (so not only intuition, but reality)


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## ThomasK

In the meantime I realize that we do see the link: we can say _zin _OR _gevoel_ (feeling) _voor humor_.


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## francisgranada

Hungarian

értelem - both for life and words
jelentés - for words

ért- to understand
jelent- to signify, denote


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## bibax

Czech:*

smysl (života)* = the sense (of life); related to *mysl* (= mind) and *mysliti* (= to think);

*význam (slova)* = the meaning (of a word); prefix *vý-* (out-, ex-), the root is *zna-m*- from the Protoslavic *zna*-mę (= sign, symbol) related to Greek *gno*-ma; related verb *zná*-ti (= to know, *gno*-sco); the Russian знак (= sign) and значение (= meaning) have the same root *zna-*;

also *smysl *= sense as in "five senses" (sight, hearing, ...);


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## ahmedcowon

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, Ahmed, but how do you translate 'the meaning of a word'? /maʕna/ as well? The /ḥiss/ is more like a feeling, I'd say...



Exactly, the use of /maʕna/ is equivalent to use of "meaning" in English

/ḥiss/ is from the root /ḥ-s-s/ and words related to "feelings" are derived from that root



arielipi said:


> sense
> (one of the five) sense(s) - חוש khush
> sensement, sensing, feeling - תחושה tkhusha



It seems that Arabic (ḥ-s-s) and Hebrew (kh-sh-sh) are cognates


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## momai

ahmedcowon said:


> Exactly, the use of /maʕna/ is equivalent to use of "meaning" in English
> 
> /ḥiss/ is from the root /ḥ-s-s/ and words related to "feelings" are derived from that root
> I think that feeling is sh3oor pl:msha3er while 7es means sense pl:a7asees
> 
> It seems that Arabic (ḥ-s-s) and Hebrew (kh-sh-sh) are cognates


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## arielipi

ahmedcowon said:


> Exactly, the use of /maʕna/ is equivalent to use of "meaning" in English
> 
> /ḥiss/ is from the root /ḥ-s-s/ and words related to "feelings" are derived from that root
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that Arabic (ḥ-s-s) and Hebrew (kh-sh-sh) are cognates



Correction friend, kh-v/'-sh
ח-ו-ש
its of the resting ayin hapoal (3 al-verb) verbs.


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## ahmedcowon

momai said:
			
		

> I think that feeling is sh3oor pl:msha3er while 7es means sense pl:a7asees



"sho3our/masha3er" and "i7saas/a7asees" are used interchangeably to mean "feeling".



arielipi said:


> Correction friend, kh-v/'-sh
> ח-ו-ש
> its of the resting ayin hapoal (3 al-verb) verbs.



Interesting that the roots are different although the words look similar as Arabic "ḥ" is a cognate of Hebrew "kh" and "s" is a cognate of "sh".


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## arielipi

actually, the root you thought is a  feeling translated as 'afraid' (i afraid so)


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## ThomasK

I asked at the Italian forum, and I was told that meaningful  ('zinvol') would be translated as *'significativo'*. To me there is quite some difference between 'significant/ -ce' and 'meaningful', but I suppose that is a biased viewpoint. My problem is based on the fact that I am afraid 'significant' or any similar word might not convey that existential, fundamental, maybe spiritual aspect. But maybe the content is or may be quite like that.


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## Schimmelreiter

ThomasK said:


> existential, fundamental, maybe spiritual aspect


The original meaning is _direction, _cf. German _Uhrzeigersinn (Sinn des Lebens - Richtung des Lebens)._


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## ThomasK

I had thought of that too, but etymologiebank.nl refers to _sentire_, 'to feel', and considers 'meaning' and 'direction' based on that. Etymonline.com refers to [bold by me]



> Latin *sensus *"perception, feeling, undertaking, meaning," from *sentire *"perceive, feel, know," probably a figurative use of a literal meaning "to find one's way," *or "to go mentally," from PIE root *sent- "to go*"



Based on that a link to direction could be considered plausible, but I wonder who you must/ can believe... In the meantime I do see that Podkorny lists the following as meanings of PIE*sent-;


> to *send*, go, choose direction; to *sense*



So, you might be right. Thanks for the information!


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## aruniyan

Nice topic.


In Tamil,

We have words,

*uNar* : Sensing
*uNarchi *: Sense of life/feel, feeling of touch
*uNarthu* : To make one feel, make one understand

*pulam, pulan* :  Sense organs used to denote the 5 Senses, (The root should *to get in touch with, Interact*)

*porul *: Meaning, Object (the root should be _*"comparison", to bring one's character on to other*_, Poruthu- fixing one onto other.)


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> Can you tell me what words you use in your language for 'the sense/ meaning of life' and 'the meaning of a word'? A note on roots of those words is welcome too.
> 
> Dutch:
> - *zin *: the root seems to be _sentire_, to feel/ perceive, as in the English sense
> - _*betekenis*_, be-*teken*-is (_nis _perhaps), referring to the meaning of 'sign', maybe linked with showing, pointing at, even also with 'teach' in English


 The Tagalog for sense based on your given word sample is "kahalagahan or katuturan" while the meaning is "Kahulugan". The root word for kahalagahan is "Halaga" (wt. of importance or significance) , the katuturan has "Turo" ( value morally) and the Kahulugan has " Hulug" (  The result that fall in place, hulug has meaning fall(Something that has weight or meaning and it appears in Tagalog too as "Payment" or "Something that has value" that need to be placed in right place or use).


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## franknagy

ThomasK said:


> Can you tell me what words you use in your language for 'the sense/ meaning of life' and 'the meaning of a word'? A note on roots of those words is welcome too.



Hungarian
Sense of a word: Egy szó *jelentés*e. (Jelentés=significance.)
Sense of the life: Az élet *értelm*e. (Értelem=reason.)

Yo have asked to analyze the roots of the words.
Jel = sign,
jelen= present,
jelent = means (3rd ps. sng.),
jelentés = meaning.

Ért= understands (3rd ps. sng.),
értelem = reason.

A quote from Imre Madách's drama "The tragedy of Man":

"Az élet *cél*ja a küzdés maga."
"The *purpose* of the life is the struggle itself."


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## ThomasK

Interesting that goal/ purpose are linked with sense, but I suppose somehow that is the case in most languages, I suddenly think.


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## franknagy

The twists of the _negative_ forms are also interesting:
értelm_etlen_ = sense_less_,
jelenték_telen_ = _in_sigificant.


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## ThomasK

I had a quick look, and now realize that noone has pointed out the link between meaning and purpose explicitly. We in Dutch associate zin with meaning and direction ('sense'),and therefore  indirectly  with goal, or maybe even more directly. 

Maybe meanings reveal some goal, and therefore some sense/ directions, I now think.


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## ancalimon

Turkish:

his (noun): sense
hisset (verb): to sense

san (verb) : to assume, to perceive, to sense
sanki : as if, seems like


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## ThomasK

But then this has nothing to do with meaning, or has it, Ancalimon? Assuming may refer to meaning, though. But I suppose 'his' does not refer to the meaning of a word, let alone the meaning of life...


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> But then this has nothing to do with meaning, or has it, Ancalimon? Assuming may refer to meaning, though. But I suppose 'his' does not refer to the meaning of a word, let alone the meaning of life...



Misread the topic.. No they are different words. "*Meaning* of life" is "yaşamın *anlamı*". Can't use "his" here.  I think "his" is either Arabic or Persian in origin.

But "san" verb on the other hand can be used that way:

For example:

Yaşamayı ne sandın? > What did you think living was? ~ What did you make of living?


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> ... Maybe meanings reveal some goal, and therefore some sense/ directions, I now think.


Or perhaps in a diferent order: feeling (sense<sentire) implies some meaning and also some direction/goal ...

Let's see the etymology of the Hungarian *értelem *(sense), maybe it's interesting for you. It comes from the verb _ért _that means "to understand" (3.pers.sg). An other verb, _érez, _means "to feel".  Both _ért _and _érez _derive from the same stem *ér *which means "to reach". Thus _to uderstand_ could be interpreted as "to reach mentally" and _to feel_ as "to reach physically". So both the Hungarian _értelem _and the English _sense _go back to something like "to reach, percieve ... mentally or physically".


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## ancalimon

francisgranada said:


> Or perhaps in a diferent order: feeling (sense<sentire) implies some meaning and also some direction/goal ...
> 
> Let's see the etymology of the Hungarian *értelem *(sense), maybe it's interesting for you. It comes from the verb _ért _that means "to understand" (3.pers.sg). An other verb, _érez, _means "to feel".  Both _ért _and _érez _derive from the same stem *ér *which means "to reach". Thus _to uderstand_ could be interpreted as "to reach mentally" and _to feel_ as "to reach physically". So both the Hungarian _értelem _and the English _sense _go back to something like "to reach, percieve ... mentally or physically".



"er" also means "to reach" and "to understand"  when used with the word mind (mind reach) in Turkic languages but not "to sense".


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## ThomasK

That is quite an interesting contribution, Frank. But don't be mistaken: my 'sense' had the meaning of direction. I think the term is quite difficult to pinpoint in languages, I suppose, because of the complexity of the meanings...


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## ancalimon

Another word related with san in Turkish is "sanrı" meaning "delusion, illusion, hallucination"


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## ThomasK

This san association looks very interesting, but I am not sure I understand this: 





ancalimon said:


> Misread the topic.. No they are different words. "*Meaning* of life" is "yaşamın *anlamı*". Can't use "his" here.  I think "his" is either Arabic or Persian in origin.
> 
> But "san" verb on the other hand can be used that way:
> 
> For example:
> 
> Yaşamayı ne sandın? > What did you think living was? ~ What did you make of living?


What is the root in anlami? And how do I have to interpret the last sentence? Something like 'How did you make sense out of life?'


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> ... But don't be mistaken: my 'sense' had the meaning of direction ....


I think (or rather _hope_) that I understand you, but I think the meaning "direction" of the word _sense _is secondary, i.e. it does not reflect the original _sense _of the word _sense _...


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> This san association looks very interesting, but I am not sure I understand this:
> What is the root in anlami? And how do I have to interpret the last sentence? Something like 'How did you make sense out of life?'



Yes it means exactly that.

The "ı" suffix means "its, his, her". The word is "anlam".
The root of anlam (meaning) is ProtoTurkic *ān meaning "grasping, thought, comprehension, perception, cognition, consciousness, nous"

Also there is another meaning of the word "san" which is "fame, reputation, appellation~designation~title". I guess that also is related as in "the perceived value of someone by other people".  Another similar word which is related in meaning is "nam" (this time a loan from Persian) which this time used for "substantial value of someone by other people". So:

If I were to give an example to what these are related with in English:

nam: name. what people know a person by
san: value. the perceived worth, honour, renown of a person. (which is somewhat imaginary I guess) For example, "princely, kingly, saintly, etc"  (possibly we share this word with Japanese if there is a distant relation. It's an honorary title in Japanese)

It seems like both anlam and san share the same root. I don't know what the initial S in "SAN" means though. There are many these kind of words in Turkic but not many people are aware of this since Turkic etymology studies are not very detailed and organized. Last part of the word "Khan" probably also is the word "an" and the word "on" meaning "number ten, a very big number" and also "being of universe" I think also is related with "an" since there are pictograms of depiction of human heads and the Sun (leaders and/or very respected people probably) that have ten dots around ~ inside them which are read as "ON" in Proto-Turkic by some.


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