# Written Accents



## Alxmrphi

Not speaking accents, I mean like ... È é ò à ù

In English (as most of you know) we don't have them, and in places like here, it gets common for people not to write them, I always make sure I do, I like putting accents in, to be "proper" I suppose, but I still get the feeling of "this is a foreign language" and I like to do stuff that English doesn't.

How does it make you feel, for people who are native to a country with a language that has accents, when people don't write them, does it bother you at all? Do you prefer to see the accents where they should be? Do you hate using them and wish they'd disappear?

Just curious to know.​


----------



## Outsider

Sometimes, I feel that Portuguese has too many accents. It must be a pain to learn them all, for foreigners. I mean, there are good reasons for using most of them, but the rules aren't always as consistent and simple as I would like, and there's nothing like a language like English, where you can just let your hand run when you're writing.
At the same time, though, unaccented text, or irregularly accented text, feels very sloppy to me, in Portuguese. It's not _that_ hard to learn to use the accents, for heaven's sake! Not when you're a native speaker, at least.


----------



## Alxmrphi

I couldn't really gauge you're view on that. 
Do you prefer to see them/write them in a place like here or not?
If you saw someone post something in Portuguese and it had no accents in it, it was all the letters anyway, is that better for you or worse, does your opinion change if they're a native or not?


----------



## Life

Rules in Spanish are a piece of cake! And if you don't use accents, you are likely to confuse words. E.g.:
ésta = demonstrative pronoun
esta = demonstrative adjective
está = verb
Of course in most contexts you'll be able to realize which word you are talking about, but sometimes, mmm...
Dile que entre. = Tell him to come in.
Dile que entré. = Tell him I came in.
In my opinion accents (we call them tildes) are very important.


----------



## Outsider

I'm a traditionalist in these things. I do prefer to see the accents. But, here in the forum, when a poster misses a couple of diacritics, which often happens, it's usually because they're not native speakers, so I normally don't bother them, unless omitting the accent causes some ambiguity (e.g. "e" vs. "é"), or if, for example, I notice that they've been sistematically using circumflexes (â) instead of tildes (ã).

As for native speakers, I tend to be lenient, as well; first, because I usually don't correct native speakers. I guess we're all "big boys and girls", and should be responsible for how we use our language. And, secondly, because I know the sad state in which our education systems are, in Portugal at least. It's not entirely their fault, if they can't spell.


----------



## Julito_Maraña

I don't care if people put accents in Spanish. You can understand just about everything perfectly well without them. None of my friends never really use accents in the personal correspondence.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Interesting views, I can see how sometimes they're esential, like Life said, 



> because I usually don't correct native speakers. I guess we're all "big boys and girls", and should be responsible for how we use our language. And, secondly, because I know the sad state in which our education systems are, in Portugal at least. It's not entirely their fault, if they can't spell.



I am always corrected by other natives, it annoys me, but I am really glad they do it, because my English has bettered SO SO much since I have been on here, and I'm really proud of that, just because they are a native doesn't mean you don't have a right to correct them. IMHO.


----------



## papillon

In the Cyrillic Russian alphabet there are two letters, е and ё. The sounds are quite different, with е resembling a softened _e_ and ё resembling a softened _o. _In the Russian literature, almost universally the dots above the ё are omitted, and the letter e is used for both. 

That this causes an enormous amount of headache to the learners of Russian is only half the problem. With the "speak as written" trend in Russian prononciation, I find that this type-setting phenomenon actually affects the way native people speak! More and more I noticed certain words pronounced with the _e_ sound, when it should be ё.

I think we should exercise a degree of common sense when it comes to accents. If we're using a computer where finding these special characters takes a lot of time, then skip it. Otherwise, use them, they're there for a reason.


----------



## Etcetera

Alex_Murphy said:


> How does it make you feel, for people who are native to a country with a language that has accents, when people don't write them, does it bother you at all? Do you prefer to see the accents where they should be? Do you hate using them and wish they'd disappear?


We have in Russian only one accented letter, that is, ё (pronounced like the German or Finnish ö or as in the English word 'world'). It's the youngest letter of the Russian alphabet.  Nowadays it's often replaced with е. In children's books ё is always printed, but in books for senior schoolchildren and adults it disappears. Many people also prefer to write е instead of ё (and so do I). 
It can be a bit confusing, yes, but we're good with it. 
I think ё is really useful, for children who're learning to read, because there *is *difference between е and ё, and sometimes they help to distinguish between two almost similar words.


----------



## Alxmrphi

> they're there for a reason.



I like that comment, but I don't find it particularly hard to type accents, I have a Post-It with all the ones I need to use for Italian and Spanish and if I don't remember them I just glance up and there they are.


----------



## geve

I like to see the accents placed where they belong, because it is a spelling mistake as much as any other one. But then I've seen how hard it can be for learners to distinguish between the various accents, and we have accents that aren't very logical (the circumflex one for instance), and I also have first-hand experience with this since I can't put the accents right in Spanish (though it's very far from being my main problem in Spanish!)... so I tend to be tolerant when there are accents missing. But I'll correct them nonetheless! If nobody tells you how are you ever going to learn?



Alex_Murphy said:


> [...] just because they are a native doesn't mean you don't have a right to correct them. IMHO.


Very true! It is everyone's interest to point out mistakes. I would rather have my typos or plain mistakes in French corrected than possibly confuse a learner.


--BUT... I'm known to not always use accents on capitalized letters  because I can't manage to find the right shortcuts on both the PC and the laptop I use


----------



## Outsider

Etcetera said:


> We have in Russian only one accented letter [...]


You have also the "i" with a breve over it (though perhaps it's considered a letter on its own). Do people write the breve?


----------



## papillon

Outsider said:


> You have also the "i" with a breve over it (though perhaps it's considered a letter on its own). Do people write the breve?


Indeed, letters и and й. Yes, these breve is always there. The name of the first one is pronounced "ee", the other one "ee-short".


----------



## Outsider

Thanks, I can't type Cyrillic letters.


----------



## Vanda

It depends on the context. For example, chatting. I myself don't use nor accents (most of the times) neither capital letters. But, as in Spanish and I dare say most of Romance languages, lack of accent in a word is completely misguiding. E (and) and é (is), just to mention an example. 
Here in the forums there is the keyboard problem. I have to confess that since I changed my keyboard some months ago, only yesterday I found the ¨ (umlaut)  (although it doesn't represent a grave problem), I can't miss my accents here, this is not a proper place for me; being a native. 
Anyway, rules can change. I grew up learning a ton of accented words, then in the year of 1978 (I'm trying to check this date) many accents were took out of the language, remaining those we use now. Who knows when they will do that again?
If I am handwriting I can't even think of skipping an accent!


----------



## cerci

I always put the accents if I'm writing in Spanish, even when just chatting online.
It looks kind of "ugly" to me to see written Spanish with no accents at all (or irregular accentuation).
Also, being a non-native speaker, I don't think I have the right to "vandalise" another language by abusing it's orthographical rules, seeing as I do know them.
As for the native speakers I know (mainly young people who go to university), I would say that most of them don't usually put the accents when writing informally. In fact, my best Spanish friend *never* puts them, unless it's for uni work or a job application... and even then only grudgingly.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Why do we all think people don't like to use them?


----------



## cerci

I guess it's just a pain to have to write them...


----------



## Outsider

Probably because it's quicker to omit accents, and most of the time context is enough to clarify the meaning of words. Another reason may be that many people don't know the accentuation rules.


----------



## Julito_Maraña

Alex_Murphy said:


> Why do we all think people don't like to use them?



I think that many people don't like to use them because it's just simpler to leave them out. You don't have to use a special keyboard, learn special keys, or worry about putting them in the wrong letter. (If you leave them ALL out you can't possibly put one in the wrong place). 

I guess, in the end, it's the the same reason people write BTW, pq (por qué). It saves keystrokes.

Part of it might be that you look like a nerd if you write like that in what is an informal situation. Kind of like showing up to a pool party in a suit and tie.

Also, some people still don't put accents in capital letters in Spanish because they think they either don't have to or are not supposed to.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Isn't that really poor education though?


----------



## Julito_Maraña

Alex_Murphy said:


> Isn't that really poor education though?



Leaving out accents in Spanish is just like writing "Dont worry about it." It really depends on who, when, and where.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Julito_Maraña said:


> Leaving out accents in Spanish is just like writing "Dont worry about it." It really depends on who, when, and where.



That didn't make any sense to me, can you explain again?


----------



## Julito_Maraña

Sure thing. 

I have a six-year old nephew and he's just now learning how to write. As a matter of fact, "*don't*" is one of the words he was tested on last week. If he wrote: "*Dont* do that." [without the apostrophe] I would correct him. I would tell him that you need an apostrophe between the *n* and the *t*. I would also wonder if he really understands how to spell that word correctly. If my sister wrote me an email that said "*Dont* go out until I get home." [without the apostrophe] I would understand that she might have just left out the apostrophe by mistake, was in a rush, or being cute. I have no doubt she knows it belongs there. 

The same thing happens with accents in Spanish. Not everybody that leaves them out leaves accents out because they don't know any better. And in some cases, it's quite all right. It's not the end of the world if you write "Its not the end of the world." If a child wrote "Andres" for "Andrés" I would correct him. My sister writes "Andres" and it's fine.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Ah I see now, I think I might add a poll to this.


----------



## jazyk

I always use accent marks because I'm a perfectionist.


----------



## Life

> Part of it might be that you look like a nerd if you write like that in what is an informal situation. Kind of like showing up to a pool party in a suit and tie.


Well, I must be a nerd then, because I never skip a *tilde*, at least not on purpose, even in informal situations. Now for me, that shows respect both for the language and for the people you are addressing. And if I consider that several non-Spanish speakers could be learning from what I post in Spanish I would *never* miss an accent.
Ah, and I wouldn't show up wearing a suit at a pool party, either!


----------



## Hakro

I think that accents are absolutely necessary, especially for a foreigner, for understanding a word properly. I always write them. I have the most common accents (` ´ ^ ¨ ~) directly in my keyboard.

In Finnish we have no accents. They are not needed because every Finn knows how to pronounce any word even if (s)he had never heard it before. In English even the natives have pronunciation problems because there are no accents.

By the way, the Finnish letters ä and ö have no accent, and it's neither an _umlaut_. They are considered as letters of their own.


----------



## Life

> Ah I see now, I think I might add a poll to this.


Will you, please?


----------



## BlueWolf

Well, I always use the accents in Italian (even in chats) where is compulsory. Italians had the fun idea to keep it only in the end of the word, a text written with other accents would look strange to me. Even if it has some disadvantages, for example I found out only yesterday that "facocero" is pronunced "facocèro" and not "facòcero". 



> Sometimes, I feel that Portuguese has too many accents.



Yeah, I agree with you!  But I hate when native speakers don't respect their own language rules, as with the apostrophe in English. Especially with a lerner!


----------



## maxiogee

Having grown up learning Irish, which used two accents - a vowel-lengthening ´ and a consonant-softening ˙ (which, to accommodate typewriting, was changed to putting a 'h' following the affected character) I tend to use them where I feel I ought to. Some imported words, even though by now long-term residents of English, still require them - as a browse through good dictionaries and well-produced books and newspapers will show.

However, truth be told, I feel it is a tad affected and pretentious. But then we all have our personal petty _bêtes noires_, do we not?


----------



## Alxmrphi

You think it's pretentious to use accents Tony? Or did I misunderstand?


----------



## ronanpoirier

Well, I don't use the accents when I'm chatting on internet, unless I'm talking to someone who's learning Portuguese. When I handwrite, the accents are always there.

I think the difference between keyboards is really bad. Example: Hungarian has double acute accents and I can't type them so, instead, I use ~ over the o to indicate it and ^ over the u to indicate it. 
And talking about Hungarian... I've noticed that natives from Hungary always use the accents. Even when chatting on internet  I believe that's because of all the short-long vowel issue.


----------



## Alxmrphi

I suppose it's necessary in languages where you need the accent to make a different word "E + È" (italian "and + is").. but the main thing I was talking about was when it isn't necessary..

Like both of these words sound EXACTLY the same:

Semaforo = Italian (Traffic lights)
Semáforo = Spanish (Traffic lights)

One has an accent, one doesn't, I think Spanish is easier in the sense of I wouldn't have known how to say it in Italian without hearing it on a recording first (which I did, or it might have been my old Italian teacher, I don't know) 

Mainly, I was talking about times when it isn't necessary.


----------



## maxiogee

Alex_Murphy said:


> You think it's pretentious to use accents Tony?



Alex, I was mocking myself — ever-so-slightly.


----------



## don maico

I am lenient but then my keyboard doesnt hav an accent key and frankly I cant remenber where most go now so I dont use them.The way I see it is along as i can understand whats been written then I'm ok about it.


----------



## maxiogee

don maico said:


> The way I see it is along as *i can understand* whats been written then I'm ok about it.



But surely the essential point of all communication is that the other person can understand it?


----------



## Outsider

Alex_Murphy said:


> I suppose it's necessary in languages where you need the accent to make a different word "E + È" (italian "and + is").. but the main thing I was talking about was when it isn't necessary..
> 
> Like both of these words sound EXACTLY the same:
> 
> Semaforo = Italian (Traffic lights)
> Semáforo = Spanish (Traffic lights)


But see what BlueWolf said:


BlueWolf said:


> Well, I always use the accents in Italian (even in chats) where is compulsory. Italians had the fun idea to keep it only in the end of the word, a text written with other accents would look strange to me. Even if it has some disadvantages, for example I found out only yesterday that "facocero" is pronunced "facocèro" and not "facòcero".


----------



## cfab

How do you feel about reading or writing Spanish without accents?

Sometimes I also wonder if Spanish should be modified to immitate some things like the use of capitals for certain things as we do in English, because I think users would benefit from some modifications. I have a handful of modifications to tell you about, but this thread is just the start. Let's communicate. 

Carlos 
Brooklyn College, CUNY


----------



## marcoszorrilla

En mi opinión la relajación a lo único que lleva es a degradar una lengua, si el acento existió siempre y hasta los amanuenses lo escribían a pluma que problema tenemos hoy para utilizarlo desde el ordenador, a no ser la pura laxitud y vagancia. Como ejemplo tenemos lo que está ocurriendo con los teléfonos móviles, en donde el lenguaje ya se reduce a la mínima expresión.

El acento por otra parte ayuda al hablante pues en aquellas palabras que desconoce sabe en donde situar el acento tónico ayudado por aquél.


----------



## Macsito

I can't see how it would work without the accents. Words don't mean the same thing: "llegué" and llegue have 2 different meanings, "té" and "te". I understand and respect the fact that languages evolve, but I agree with marcoszorrilla when s/he says "En mi opinión la relajación a lo único que lleva es a degradar una lengua"


----------



## fsabroso

Hola,

Si deseas uniformizar la forma de escribir que nos sea cambiando nuestro español, lo hablamos y escribimos con acento desde siempre, incluyendo la "ñ".

Hacer eso serio flojo. 

Saludos!


----------



## whattheflock

En un lenguaje donde el acento no sólo marca la entonación sino que también a veces define el significado de la palabra, sería una degradación el abandonar el uso de las tildes más bien que una simplificación.
Pero es tan solo mi opinión personal. He aquí un consejo:
Los compañeros de la RAE (que deliberan en conjunción con otras academias de la lengua de muchos otros países hispanos) seguramente aceptan consultas y sugerencias en su sitio de Internet. A lo mejor ellos también se interesan en este tema.


----------



## cfab

Estoy de acuerdo que para diferenciar algunas palabras es indispensable, sin embargo, el tiempo que se desperdicia cuando no es necesario es oro.
Como hacen ustedes para poner acentos y enies en sus correos-e? En este foro tampoco pude poner la enie tecleando control+shift tab y la n. Aunque si he visto la enie con la liniestita encima en algun lugar de este sitio.
Gracias amigos,
Carlos


----------



## whattheflock

Hay varias maneras de lograr poner tildes fácilmente. Creo que hay un "sticky" (haz clic) en este foro (o tal vez en el de "Sólo español") donde se explican varios métodos para lograrlo. Yo personalmente prefiero adiestrar mi ordenador: me voy a las opciones de lenguaje y le pido que me dé el teclado internacional.
Otros prefieren el uso de las combinaciones de teclas "Alt +".
Ahí escoja su preferida.


----------



## cfab

Thanks. (Inglesito o Americanito US of A?)


----------



## JB

You cannot eliminate accent marks in Spanish without markedly increasing confusion.  Just in this forum, so many people leave them out, and also leave out commans and periods, so you just have a series of words totally 2 or 3 thoughts, and sometimes I have to read 2 or 3 times to figure out what I think they are saying.  There is an immediate, obvious difference between *como* and *¿Cómo*   without even getting to the second word.

There is already enough confusion when it comes to communication.  In the French book Le Petit Prince, The Little Prince, El Principito, there is a line, the fox talking to the Little Prince, La langue est source de malentendu (la lengua es una fuente de malentendimientos).  

In addition, I think it would be great of English adopted the convenetion of ¿? and ¡!.  Since we often write questions as sentences:  You're hungry? -- it would help.  There have been attempts by writers and publishers in the past to make this happen, but it never caught on with the public.

Finally, what are some of your suggestions for improving Spanish?


----------



## El filipicante

Entiendo que mi compatriota Mario Vargas Llosa y otros escritores, incluyendo varios integrantes del "boom" latinoamericano, proponen y propugnan (o proponían y propugnaban) la simplificación del alfabeto castellano (ej.: combinación de s, c y z en un solo fonema), no así la eliminación del acento ni de los esquemas acentuales.  Es que el castellano posee acento libre, a diferencia del francés (acento final obligatorio) o del checo (acento forzoso en la sílaba inicial) por citar algunos ejemplos.  
..cenó y ceno; hábito y habito, tienen significados muy diferentes.   

En cuanto a las mayúsculas, bueno, cada idioma tiene sus peculiaridades.  Prefiero el uso limitado que el castellano da a las mayúsculas, al uso indiscriminado que se observa en el inglés.


----------



## fsabroso

cfab said:


> Estoy de acuerdo que para diferenciar algunas palabras es indispensable, sin embargo, el tiempo que se desperdicia cuando no es necesario es oro.
> Como hacen ustedes para poner acentos y enies en sus correos-e? En este foro tampoco pude poner la enie tecleando control+shift tab y la n. Aunque si he visto la enie con la liniestita encima en algun lugar de este sitio.
> Gracias amigos,
> Carlos



Trata:
ALT164

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=20801

Saludos!


----------



## ERASMO_GALENO

Hola,

El español puede ser complicado, pero justamente eso es parte de su belleza. Y eliminar algo inherente de él sería como reducir una pintura a un boceto. Imagínate que los artistas quisieran ahorrarse trabajo al momento de realizar sus creaciones y hacer el mínimo esfuerzo; creo que se perdería gran parte del mensaje, del efecto. Igual sucede con nuestro idioma. Podríamos buscar simplificar la conjugación verbal, que por ejemplo es muy difícil, pero se arruinaría todo.

Finalmente, escribir correctamente, expresarse correctamente, transmitir las ideas correctamente... creo que nunca serán una pérdida de tiempo.

Saludos,


----------



## cfab

Dear Accents in Spanish, discussion group participants:
My biggest complaint about having to put accents in Spanish is that it takes quite a bit of time. And over a lifetime and multiplied by an entire nation or all Spanish-speakers, that is years, decades, and centuries if not millenia, if the planet is not blown-up. I recognize and concede that there are a finite number of words that MUST carry an accent. "Esta" for example with the accent at the beginning or end, and of course with no accent, all mean 3 diff. things.
So thank you all for your feedback, and thank you for clarifying that some words MUST have an accent. 
At this juncture, this unofficial and experimental project to minimize using accents in Spanish -- which could only originate in a place like NY or the US, or a nation where Spanish is not the norm --  asks: How many writers of Spanish might agree on a style of Spanish writing that only uses the INDISPENSABLE accents?

On a separate matter, how do you guys insert accents into gmail, for example?
Best,
Carlos 
(cfab)


----------



## cirrus

I am pleased English doesn't have any use for them.  To my mind it makes for cleaner text.  Generally I don't use them on foreign words which have been imported into English because I think it looks naff.  

I understand why they are there in Spanish and use them most of the time eg providing the keyboard will let me do this without having to spend ages hunting around for them.  I am less fussy when it comes to SMS.  

I start to lose the plot with languages like French where there is such a bewildering variety - grave, acute, circumflex and sedillas quite apart from umlauts.  If I ruled the world (not that I ever will) I would reform spelling so that combinations of letters replaced accents. Imagine, while we are at it, what fun we could have re writing English so that it too became at least half way phonetic.


----------



## Outsider

Some languages just wouldn't be the same without diacritics. French, Italian, German, Irish, most Slavic languages... Or can you imagine Arabic without all those little dots?
For me, it's part of their charm.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

It's a shame that in Spain educational authorities doesn't make an effort to make people understand that accents are a MUST to maintain the regular pronunciation of the language and how important this is. Even highly educated people have not much respect for accents, but I've seen that the better English people has, the better use of accents they made... I think this is because these people do know the problem of having no idea of the pronunciation of a written word before they hear it...

If this is a problem in Spanish, where there only are two upper marks (the tilde (´) and the very rare and very easy dieresis (¨) that is not related to the umlaut), how is it in other languages where there are ´`' ç ~ ^ ¨ and more?  

PS: Some claim Spanish accent rules should be changed in order to have to use them less frequently, but they're actually ruled that way. If those rules were more simple, there were a lot more of accents; but maybe people would then make a better use of accents.


----------



## Outsider

Here's one Spanish accent that could do with a little further reform, though.


----------



## cfab

Amigos:
En mis correspondencias que originan en los EEUU, voy a usar los acentos unicamente cuando son esenciales para eliminar confusion. "Otherwise", los considero inecesarios y un desperdicio de tiempo.
Que opinan ustedes? 
Contestenme a mi email directamente si desean.
Saludos,
Carlos en NY


----------



## whattheflock

Bienvenido, pero también es una manera de demostrar buenos modales. Es decir, a menos que sepas que tu destinatario no se va a molestar por lo que muchos, muchos, muchos consideran faltas de ortografía, entonces todo está bien. En lo personal, para ahorrarme tiempo en la redacción y evitar los acentos, prefiero escribir en inglés. Pero en español me siento obligado a hacer uso de las dichosas tildes. Qué se le va a hacer.


----------



## cfab

vi algo que decia "Please correct anything that is wrong with me." Porque lo pones ahi, como lo colocas ahi? Me gusta la idea y voy a ver si me imprimo un boton o camiseta con esa frase muy conducente a la superacion individual y consiguientemente humana.
Saludos,
Carlos


----------



## JB

cfab said:


> On a separate matter, how do you guys insert accents into gmail, for example?


 
To answer this, if you put in a Spanish Soft Keyboard, it is quite easy--jkust a brief learning curve,. then an occasional extra keystroke.  On WN98SE (my antique system), I do Start, Settings, Control Panel, Keyboard, then select the language (s) and hot keys, if you want.  Then you can easily switch back nad forth. It is really not a big deal.  You have to remember, when you are in Spanish (and there is a symbol on your task bar, in case you forget) that Shift'Comma yields semicolon, Shift Period yields colon, and then where the special punctuation keys are.  As I said, there is a brief learning curve; after that á, é, í, ó, and ú, not to mention ü, Ü, ñ and Ñ (the English Semicolon, Colon key) and ¿? and ¡! are pretty easy.  For myself, I switch back and forth between Esp Eng with Alt-Shift, but that is  just my choice.

Secondly, things do change.  WHen I started studying Spanish 40 years ago, the FUI, FUISTE, FUE of ser took an accent mark, and those of ir did not (or vice versa).  I expect the RAE dropped this rule because nobody followed it, because of ignorance, which I think is a shame.  

And the ñ used to be an "n" written over an "n", now it is just a tilde symbol (American usage), and in handwriting you see a lot of people just putting in a little line, which is OK with me.  But what if you eliminate completely?   You would not know, until you figured out from the context that followed, if you were reading cana or caña, canon or cañon, or many others.

Considering how badly most people write, guessing from context is not my favorite thing.  Look at all the questions we get in WR lacking enough context.  Of course, you could do what we do in English, and spell one way cannon, and the other canyon.  But how is that better than a tilde?


----------



## heidita

En mi idioma no existen los acentos (¡lo que faltaba!). Pero en español me parecen absolutamente necesarios. Hemos tenido muchas discusiones sobre acentuar o no palabritas como sólo/solo y el sentido de la frase cambia a veces radicalmente de poner o no las tildes. De hecho a mí personalmente me parece que se es demasiado "lenient" con las personas que no se molestan en acentuar sus entradas correctamente. Es cuestión de apreciación me supongo. En el foro alemán sería como permitir no usar las mayúsculas, que no se permite de ninguna manera, bien hecho en mi  opinión. 
Como anécdota personal, siempre me han gustado much las tildes pero era francamente descuidada. Sufrí una verdadera _persecución _por un forero en el foro español y nos hicimos, gracias a las dichosas tildes, los mejores amigos.¡Hasta sirven para hacerse amigos! No se puede pedir más...


----------



## Outsider

En alemán no existen "acentos", pero existen los umlauts...


----------



## Victoria32

My comment on this (in English, sorry) is that I use accents when I can.. that being said, the ASCII (?) keys do not work on some websites.

So, that means the dreaded *character map.

I am lazy! 
*


----------



## heidita

Outsider said:


> En alemán no existen "acentos", pero existen los umlauts...


 
Una palabra sin Umlaut, es como una sopa sin sal.


----------



## elroy

Outsider said:


> Or can you imagine Arabic without all those little dots?
> For me, it's part of their charm.


 That's sweet of you, Outsider, but in Arabic the dots are part of the letter (like in _i_ or _j_) and most of the time they are absolutely indispensable because they constitute the only difference between otherwise identical groups of letters. 

ب - ت - ث
ج - ح - خ
د - ذ
ر - ز
س - ش
ص - ض
ط - ظ
ع - غ

There are only 4 letters that contain a dot or more, that do not otherwise look like any other letter:

ف - ق - ن - ي

The two dots are dropped from the ي in Egypt and sometimes in other countries as well (although ى exists as a variation of a letter, so dropping the two dots can lead to confusion).  However, this only happens at the end of a word, because otherwise this letter looks like some other letters except for the number of dots.

The dots can be left out of ن and ق at the end of a word in actual writing, but never in the type-written language (except maybe in certain fonts).  The same principle applies; in any other position they could be confused with similar-looking letters with a different number of dots.

Interesting enough, the dot of a ف is _never_ dropped!


----------



## stupidshorty

Hi everyone!
I personally think accents are very important! It's true that we don't use them in English, but in the romance languges we do. Like people above said, accents change the meaning of the words a lot (this happens in Spanish) and also the pronunciation of the words (this happens in French). And even though most of us don't like them (I'm very lazy to write them), it's a propper way of writing a romance language. Without accents the meaning and pronunciation of several words would change.


----------



## Alxmrphi

elroy is it bad that I can't see any difference on those Arabic letters, and I've got good eyesight too.


----------



## elroy

Larger version:

*ب - ت - ث
ج - ح - خ
د - ذ
ر - ز
س - ش
ص - ض
ط - ظ
ع - غ

ف - ق - ن - ي
*


----------



## Alxmrphi

Oh that's much better


----------



## Sorcha

Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.
?


----------



## Dr. Quizá

Sorcha said:


> Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.
> ?



Yes, definitely! A lot of people think it's unnecessary (and even wrong!) but that's just a myth based on old typewriters, which were unable to accent capitals properly. Furthermore, Allmighty RAE has explicitely declared that rule about not accenting capitals has never ever existed. Unfortunately, accented banners are very rare  Even "El País", one of the most important newspapers, writes it's name as "EL PAIS", that means nothing


----------



## Outsider

Sorcha said:


> Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.
> ?


In Portuguese, yes. I don't think there's ever been any question about it. In other languages like French and Spanish, it seems there are some _urban myths_ that say you shouldn't accent capital letters, but that's not the official position.
In German, umlauted letters can be replaced with -E digraphs in capitals, although this is not mandatory, as I understand: Ä, Ö, Ü  AE, OE, UE.


----------



## BlueWolf

Sorcha said:


> Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.
> ?



I think in Italian both the usages are correct (even if we usually keep the accents in capital letters too, or better, we use an apostrophe instead for problems with the Italian keyboard). When you vote a referendum for example, you choose between SI and NO (while it should be written sì).


----------



## Hakro

Sorcha said:


> Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.


Some time ago on these Forums I learned that in French nowadays accents are used also on capital letters. This has been changed only a few years ago and it seems that all the Frenchmen haven't learned it yet.

In Finnish there are no aaccents. In the letters 'Ä' and 'Ö' it's not an umlaut either, they are considered as separate letters in the alphabet (in alphabetical order ... X-Y-Z-Å-Ä-Ö).

It's the same situation in Swedish.


----------



## Outsider

In French: accents sur les majuscules.


----------



## geve

Hakro said:


> Some time ago on these Forums I learned that in French nowadays accents are used also on capital letters. This has been changed only a few years ago and it seems that all the Frenchmen haven't learned it yet.


Indeed, and especially on proper nouns: thanks to this forum I learnt that my first name should take an accent on its capital! But I feel too old to rename myself.  So I think I'll stay unaccented.


----------



## maxiogee

Sorcha said:


> Can I ask a question here, I'm wondering if you guys, in your various native languages, are obliged according to grammar rules to accent capital letters, because as far as I'm aware in Irish we're not supposed to.
> ?



Hiya Sorcha, 
Who told you that?
Have you looked at the name of our country recently? *Éire* 

Have you not prayed to _*Íosa Críost*_ recently?


----------



## Hakro

I learned just today that using the accents in the text messages with a mobile phone can be expensive. 

You can write 160 characters for the basic price (in Finland 6 to 10 E-cents, in Spain 70 E-cents), but if you write accents the message may be divided into two or even three sendings. It's possible that you have to pay 2,10 euro for a text message sent from Spain.

This depends on the type of the phone. In some of the new and more expensive phones the using of accents doesn't add characters to the message.

Although I prefer using the accents always it might be a good advice not to use them in text messages.


----------



## serg79_

Hakro said:


> I learned just today that using the accents in the text messages with a mobile phone can be expensive.
> 
> You can write 160 characters for the basic price (in Finland 6 to 10 E-cents, in Spain 70 E-cents), but if you write accents the message may be divided into two or even three sendings. It's possible that you have to pay 2,10 euro for a text message sent from Spain.
> 
> This depends on the type of the phone. In some of the new and more expensive phones the using of accents doesn't add characters to the message.
> 
> Although I prefer using the accents always it might be a good advice not to use them in text messages.


Hi, I don't know if that just applies in Finland (or with Finnish SIM cards), but I've sent text messages from the UK and Spain using accents and it has cost me exactly the same as sending messages with no accents (as long as it's 160 characters or less).


----------



## Hakro

Hi Serg,

I read the article in the biggest Finnish newspaper. They had tested sending a message with accents. Results shortly:

Nokia 1100 and 2600 (cheap models): two messages sent
Sony-Ericsson K800i and W850 (expensive models): two messages sent
Motorola Razr K1 (new expensive model): two messages sent

In some phones you can see the number of characters all the time.

In some phones, if there are more than 70 characters in a message and there's at least one accent, the number of the characters is doubled.

That's all I know about this, but maybe it's worth checking your phone and your phone bill.


----------



## serg79_

Hi Hakro,
I actually have one of the exact phones you mentioned (!) and I've never had to pay more than the standard price for a text message with accents.
I use a "pay-as-you-go" SIM card so it tells me how much credit I have left as soon as I've sent the message. I've also used a similar SIM card in Spain (on a Spanish network) and with the same results.
But maybe what you say only applies to people who use certain networks and/or price plans?
I've never heard about it before but thanks for the info anyway.


----------



## Hakro

Hi Serg,

That's interesting. If you send me the type of your phone (by PM) I'd like to send your information to the newspaper. 

I think we should be awake with these things, otherwise the operators and phone companies are cheating us.


----------



## vittel

geve said:


> Indeed, and especially on proper nouns: thanks to this forum I learnt that my first name should take an accent on its capital! But I feel too old to rename myself.  So I think I'll stay unaccented.



Same here! 
My name is émilie. I've always wrote it Emilie, and I don't plan to change.

To answer the question, I don't like when the accents are not well placed in French, because it's important for the pronunciation. I don't like when the natives deliberately make the mistake, out of laziness. 
But I'm very lenient with foreigners, because of the difficulty of the rules, but also because of the problem with writing them on a keyboard. 
I myself, am unable to write a capital "ç" on my laptop.


----------



## cfab

Folks: After a few weeks away from the topic of using accents, I truly believe it is a waste of (always) precious time to place them on words where it is not essential.
What do you all think?
Carlos


----------



## cfab

I also believe -- though I realize it will be "close to" impossible, but posssible, to bring about the change --  that it is best to use capitals for important  words like the days. Doing so makes the written language more efficient because these key words stand out, as they need to, when the first letter stands out.
Your opinions please...
They are highly appreciated and very welcomed.
CFab


----------



## Anatoli

Accents in languages like German, French, Spanish, Polish, any Scandinavian languages are integral part of the script (there are more lnaguges in this boat). They should learned and used.

Arabic and Hebrew vowels are optional.

Chinese Mandarin *pīnyīn* has tone marks meaining the 4 tones: _dōng, dóng, dǒng, dòng_. Pinyin and tone marks are only used for learning purposes as well

Russian has optional accent for stressed syllables - used for learning purposes and in dictionaries. Letter "ё" (yo) has semi-mandatory dots, which makes pronunciation very different but the dots are often omitted.
                 Accented Russian letters: ́а ́е ́э ́у ́о ́и ́я ́ю ́ё

(note: ё is always accented with dots, no need to put the stress symbol, provided just as an example)

IMHO, inputting accents should be made easier as it causes pains for someone who wants to use them.


----------



## Outsider

cfab said:


> Folks: After a few weeks away from the topic of using accents, I truly believe it is a waste of (always) precious time to place them on words where it is not essential.
> What do you all think?
> Carlos


If you decided to only use accents where they are "needed", you would need to know which words (or contexts!) require them, and which ones do not. I suspect you would create more confusion, as the RAE did with its most recent accentuation reform, at least for second language learners. 
Sometimes it's best to have a set of rules that have some redundancy, but are simple to learn.


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Life said:


> Rules in Spanish are a piece of cake! And if you don't use accents, you are likely to confuse words. E.g.:
> ésta = demonstrative pronoun
> esta = demonstrative adjective
> está = verb
> Of course in most contexts you'll be able to realize which word you are talking about, but sometimes, mmm...
> Dile que entre. = Tell him to come in.
> Dile que entré. = Tell him I came in.
> In my opinion accents (we call them tildes) are very important.


 

I admit I haven't read all the posts in here (not even a 10%, sorry...  ), but I totally agree with Life. Those picky little diagonal hyphens placed above vowels are very important in Spanish...

Although I got really good at understanding 'chatspeak' while teaching teenagers, I hate reading an inform, essay, email, or even SMS text message without the 'tildes'. It consumes a lot of time in trying to get the full meaning of things, while getting the right punctuation only takes a moment.

I know, the rigid point of view of a teacher, but... If you had to correct all those papers every week, you'd probably think the same!


----------



## cfab

I think accents in Spanish could be used (among the willing) only when it is essential to differentiate words.
Any comments?
Thanks,
Carlos (NY)


----------

