# eloahim



## L.2

I know that eloah means God and im is the plural suffix and I know that Judaism is a monotheistic religion so why hebrews refer to the One God as gods (eloahim). I read some explinations but nothing makes sense.
In Arabic there is something called plural of respect and royalty but they just use the third pronoun "We"
for example an Arabian king would refer to himself as "We the king of X or We the president of X...
but no one says We the kingS (plural) as it's the case in eloahim which even the verbs and adjectives that following it are in a plural form.
Any explination would be appreciated.. I am thinking maybe the old hebrews (who lived before Mosa) were using this word and then their successors kept using it even though they become monotheists.


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## origumi

I do not have a good answer, only few comments.

1. Jews are monotheistic since the days of Abraham/Ibrahim, not only since Moses/Musa (although we hadn't had the Bible at those times).

2. Not only Elohim, there are several other plural words in the older parts of the Bible (that are also part of modern Hebrew), for example sky, water, life.

3. It is not clear (to me, at least) whether the answer to your question should be searched in linguistics, theology, or history.

4. Personally I am not sure that Elohim is really plural, or alternatively an archaic form that looks like plural. For example, it may be trace of an extinct case system (nominative, genitive, accusative, etc.) as still visible in Akkadian and Quranic Arabic.


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## dinji

Elohím takes the verb in singular and adjectives as well.

The analogy to sky (shamáyim), water (máyim) and life (hayím) is not perfect since these words take verbs and adjectives in the plural. The first two also look like duals, not plurals?

I think there are more examples of singular nouns ending in -im in the Bible. If I am not mistaken it has been understood as a strengthening suffix with a common etymology with the "plural" but with departed meanings.


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## Talib

Yes, _ayim_ is the dual, which is no longer productive in Hebrew.

I always thought אלהים was the so-called "plural of majesty," and so is אדני.


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## origumi

Talib said:


> Yes, _ayim_ is the dual, which is no longer productive in Hebrew.


_-ayim _is usually dual - but are you sure that this the case of sky, water (מים, שמיים)? "the two skies", "the two waters"? In the sister language, Aramaic, both are singualr (שמיא, מיא).

Another example is "pnim" (פנים) - looks like plural but is it really?

Other words like אמנם and ריקם may also be taken into account. Both are root + suffix מ. Is it a מ of plural? if not then what is it? And why Aramaic for ריקם is ריקן, where ן (nun sofit) is (one of) the Aramaic suffix for plural? For example Genesis 1:2 וְאַרְעָא הֲוָת צָדְיָא וְ*רֵיקָנְ*יָא.

Borrowed words may also show similar behavior but are irrelevant to this discussion. For exaple ליסטים (thief, robber) from Greek "lestes" (two etas, shifted into "i" sound prior to the borrowing).


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## Talib

origumi said:


> _-ayim _is usually dual - but are you sure that this the case of sky, water (מים, שמיים)? "the two skies", "the two waters"? In the sister language, Aramaic, both are singualr (שמיא, מיא).
> 
> Another example is "pnim" (פנים) - looks like plural but is it really?


Well like I said the dual number is "frozen" in Hebrew, meaning it's only retained in a small set of words, usually things that come in twos (eyes, ears etc.). Why water and sky should have the dual is beyond me, but without better evidence I'd assume that's what happened somehow. It could very well be a different process at work here though.

More on topic with this thread, אלהים is treated as a singular, is it not? Yet that's clearly the plural (the singular being אלוה of course).

Also I just realized the threadstarter used the spelling eloahim which is wrong. Eloah/elohim.


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## ahshav

I'm really interested in the proposition that origumi brought up - of an extinct case system. Considering the mimation in plurals that Hebrew follows overall, compared to Arabic's nunation in non-broken plurals - and further taking into consideration Modern Standard Arabic's nunation in (indefinite nouns') case endings, this all seems like a very appealing theory.



Talib said:


> Well like I said the dual number is "frozen" in Hebrew, meaning it's only retained in a small set of words, usually things that come in twos (eyes, ears etc.). Why water and sky should have the dual is beyond me, but without better evidence I'd assume that's what happened somehow. It could very well be a different process at work here though.
> 
> Also I just realized the threadstarter used the spelling eloahim which is wrong. Eloah/elohim.




There are a few other examples where the dual is commonly used (double-decker bus is אוטובוס קומתיים, e.g.), and of course numbers and time periods maintain the dual (מאתיים, יומיים, etc). But in order to make a point, people might sometimes also used the dual in a humorous manner.

Regarding the singular of elohim - I would actually transliterate it as elo*H*ah.


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## Talib

It isn't e'lo-ah?


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## ahshav

I've always heard it pronounced as EloHah - but to make sure I just checked on morfix.co.il (dictionary, but results have niqud) and it vocalizes it like this - אֱלֹהַּ 

As far as I know a final ה does not act the same as a final ע or ח - can anyone corroborate?


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## Talib

I believe it does actually, after a long vowel.

That's why it has mappiq in the center, to show that it's a consonant.


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## ahshav

So if it's a consonant and not a mater lectionis wouldn't that mean that the ה, in fact, pronounced - making it eloHa?


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## Talib

No, elo-ah, with the h actually pronounced. 

Like other gutterals after a long vowel (in this case holam), a pathah is added before the consonant. The word "should" be eloh, but elo-ah is easier to say.

Of course this is the Tiberian pronunciation and most people aren't so careful when reading.

Argh, maybe I'll just post a midi of myself saying it.


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## dinji

Talib is right. If one only distinguishes mute _hey_'s (mater lectionis) from originally pronounced _hey_'s one realizes the analogy to how this structure is pronounced with other gutturals.

We don't say _lishkocha_ but _*lishkoach*_ 'to forget' 

With _hey_ the rule has been obscured once _hey_ ceased to be pronounced.


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## origumi

ahshav said:


> Regarding the singular of elohim - I would actually transliterate it as elo*H*ah.


It's פתח גנוב according to the rules:

1. Word that ends with ה, ח, ע
2. No "a" sound (either patakh or kamatz) before the ה, ח, ע

Therefore Eloah is correct.


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## ahshav

origumi said:


> It's פתח גנוב according to the rules:
> 
> 1. Word that ends with ה, ח, ע
> 2. No "a" sound (either patakh or kamatz) before the ה, ח, ע
> 
> Therefore Eloah is correct.



I did not know that a פתח גנוב applies to letters other than ח and ע. Just goes to show you the state of the Hebrew grammar education in....


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## dinji

For clarification the following amendment of something implied by your rule:



origumi said:


> 1. Word that ends with הּ , ח, ע
> 2. No "a" sound (either patakh or kamatz) before the הּ , ח, ע


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## hadronic

But true is that a lot of people say "gavoha" instead of "gavoah" for example.
Actually, even if the patach ganuv was meant here to help with pronounciation going from "o" to a guttural, it's actually more difficult to say "oah" with a support-less "h" sound, than "oha".


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## Flaminius

> But true is that a lot of people say "gavoha" instead of "gavoah" for example.


I seem to hear more instances of _gavoa_ than of _gavoha_.  The latter is so easy to be confused with the feminine form, _gevoha_.  Just like pharyngeal fricative becoming silent at the end of a word (_jodea`_ is usually pronounced _jodea_), הּ seems to be just lost.

edit
Another example from which the final /h/ is lost is לָהּ.  It is always pronounced [la].


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## origumi

Flaminius said:


> I seem to hear more instances of _gavoa_ than of _gavoha_. The latter is so easy to be confused with the feminine form, _gevoha_.


You shouldn't be confused - the stress is on a different syllable: gavoah vs. gevoha. This difference is consistently maintained in spoken language.


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## origumi

dinji said:


> For clarification the following amendment of something implied by your rule:
> ...
> 1. Word that ends with הּ, ח, ע
> 2. No "a" sound (either patakh or kamatz) before the הּ, ח, ע


Thanks.

Not clear to me when exactly מפיק should appear in the הּ. According to the grammar books I checked - there are only four specific circumstances (for example שֶׁלָּהּ, אוֹתָהּ, בָּהּ, גָּבַהּ). See the rule here: http://he.wikibooks.org/wiki/%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%9F/%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%94%D7%92%D7%94/%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A7. However, the common sense tells that every consonant ה as final letter requires מפיק (except of well documented exceptions), and the word אֱלוֹהַּ is a good example.


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## hadronic

The link shows only 5 words ending with h mappiq. What about the others, like eloah ?


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## Flaminius

origumi said:


> Flaminius said:
> 
> 
> 
> I seem to hear more instances of _gavoa_ than of _gavoha_. The latter is so easy to be confused with the feminine form, _gevoha_.
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be confused - the stress is on a different syllable: gavoah vs. gevoha. This difference is consistently maintained in spoken language.
Click to expand...

I don't confuse "gavoah vs. gevoha".  It's _gavoha_ and _gevoha_.  The former is the expected pronunciation on a par with what is reported by *ahshav* _supra_ #9 (EloHah; although I am not sure how to tell the different between H and h).  The latter is, of course, the feminine singular of the adjective.

Are pronunciations like /gavoha/ and /eloha/ common in modern Hebrew conversations?


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