# Pronunciation - n, l before c



## Salazaar

Hello.
I discovered that pronuncing spanish "c" (in Spain) is quite difficult when you have "l" or "n" before it, especially when you speak fast. For example:
_Pido a*l c*ielo
Come*nz*ar
_So I spotted that I'm quite "swallowing" those "l" and "n", but think it isn't correct, is it? The problem is that when you pronunce l,n your mouth opens differently than in c, and it's hard to change it fast. So do you actually "swallow" l,n when they are before c?
Cheers


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## Salazaar

Anyone...?


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## Outsider

Listen to the audio samples in this site.


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## Salazaar

Well, honestly, I'm not fluent in spanish phonetic symbols. Anyway, the problem is not that I don't know how to spell "c" in spanish (spain) way, but the problem is with pronuncing it when before c are letters like l, n.


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## Alma Shofner

My spanish is from México, so we don't have the lisp. I don't see a problem to pronounce the Spaniard c after l or n. I tried and it worked well.
Regards


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## Outsider

The site has audio files and animations which show you how to pronounce the sounds of Spanish in various positions. Browse it, and look at the example words, if you're not familiar with phonetic symbols.


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## Salazaar

The problem is that mouth position is completely different, so fast l,n->c is my problem, so I kind of swallow that l,n


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## flljob

Para mí, esas eles y enes siempre suenan claras, y tampoco es difícil pronunciarlas (aunque pronuncie la z y la c a la española).

Saludos


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## Outsider

El problema es que en polaco la ele probablemente no es clara, sino oscura.


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## Alma Shofner

flljob said:


> Para mí, esas eles y enes siempre suenan claras, y tampoco es difícil pronunciarlas (aunque pronuncie la z y la c a la española).
> 
> Saludos


 
Yo tampoco les veo ningún problema. Creo que le falta practicar y practicar y volver a practicar. 

It is like for me, with English. As I come from a region where we don't have the ch sound, only the sh, I can't say many words in English, like beach, no way José! 

What I do is to look for another word (synonyms) to be able to communicate my ideas. You can try looking for synonyms of the words that are either difficult to pronounce or a mouthful. It is a suggestion.

Regards


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## Alma Shofner

Outsider said:


> El problema es que en polaco la ele probablemente no es clara, sino oscura.


 Are you talking about beer?
Regards


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## Outsider

No. Why do you ask?


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## Alma Shofner

Outsider said:


> No. Why do you ask?


 
Just because I've never heard of such a thing like dark or light/clear l. What does that mean?

Thanks and regards


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## Salazaar

Outsider said:


> El problema es que en polaco la ele probablemente no es clara, sino oscura.


Yes, that's the problem. I see no problems in pronuncing "beach" for example, so the solution is simple...Practice, practice, practice...


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## andrew_g2

Hi,

I'm a native speaker of English and have never had this problem when learning Spanish.

Salazaar, what do you mean when you say that the mouth position is different when going from l,n->c?

For me, the position of the jaw and lips hardly changes at all between these two consonants, it's just a simple movement of the tip of the tongue from the roof of the mouth to just between the front teeth.

Your native language is Polish? So are you sure that 
a) your 'L' is the same as the Spanish one? (As others have said, L's come in two vareties - clear and dark, depending on the language)
b) how confident are you that you're pronouncing the Z right? (does this sound exist in Polish?)

regards,

Andrew


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## Alma Shofner

andrew_g2 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm a native speaker of English and have never had this problem when learning Spanish.
> 
> Salazaar, what do you mean when you say that the mouth position is different when going from l,n->c?
> 
> For me, the position of the jaw and lips hardly changes at all between these two consonants, it's just a simple movement of the tip of the tongue from the roof of the mouth to just between the front teeth.
> 
> Your native language is Polish? So are you sure that
> a) your 'L' is the same as the Spanish one? (As others have said, L's come in two vareties - clear and dark, depending on the language)
> b) how confident are you that you're pronouncing the Z right? (does this sound exist in Polish?)
> 
> regards,
> 
> Andrew


 
I've never heard of the clear and dark l's before. Can you elaborate on that please?
Thanks
Regards


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## phosphore

Compare English words "let" /let/ and "pull" /pʊɫ/


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## Alma Shofner

Do we have two sounds for the l in Spanish? I didn't know about it. I'll check it out.
Thanks


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## flljob

Alma Shofner said:


> Do we have two sounds for the l in Spanish? I didn't know about it. I'll check it out.
> Thanks


 Según Quilis, no son dos. Son cuatro alófonos de L.

Saludos


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## Alma Shofner

In this site: http://quiben.typepad.com/32030/files/Fonemas_espanol.pdf
I found that there are three or four? alófonos de la l. Interdentalizado (which I have no problem with, since we don't use the z española), dentalizado (followed by t or d), palatalizado (seguido de consonante palatal) and l for the rest of them.
Which one is the clear and which one is the dark? 
Thanks


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## phosphore

Neither one is dark in Spanish, I think. Dark "l" is *velarized* alveolar lateral approximant.


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## Salazaar

Yes, polish is my native language. In polish "l" and "n" sound the same as in spanish. The thing is that in polish sound "c" and "z" (pronunced in spanish spain way) doesn't exist. So when I pronunce "esperanza" I swallow "n". I don't know where my problem lays.


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## flljob

phosphore said:


> Neither one is dark in Spanish, I think. Dark "l" is *velarized* alveolar lateral approximant.


 Imposible, para mí, de pronunciar. ¿Alveolar y velar?

¿Habrá algún ejemplo que podamos oír?

Saludos


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## andrew_g2

Salazaar,

I've read something in a book that might help you: When you pronounce an n or l in Spanish, the position of your tongue varies depending on the next consonant. (This is called "assimilation of place of articulation"). 

So, when you're pronouncing an n or l and the next consonant is a z, t or d then the tip of the tongue is further forward (touching the teeth). 

If the n or l is between vowels, on the other hand, the tip of the tongue touches the alveolar ridge. (The alveolar ridge is the ridge that contains the sockets of the upper front teeth) 

cheers,

Andrew


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## phosphore

flljob said:


> Imposible, para mí, de pronunciar. ¿Alveolar y velar?
> 
> ¿Habrá algún ejemplo que podamos oír?
> 
> Saludos


 
Velarization or, sometimes, pharyngealization, is just its secondary articulation. It means that the back of the tongue approaches the soft palate while moving away from the hard palate, so it makes kind of U-shape. 

Common examples in English are _bell, pull, milk_ and so on.

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/phonetics/narrower/dark-l.html


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## Alma Shofner

phosphore said:


> Velarization or, sometimes, pharyngealization, is just its secondary articulation. It means that the back of the tongue approaches the soft palate while moving away from the hard palate, so it makes kind of U-shape.
> 
> Common examples in English are _bell, pull, milk_ and so on.
> 
> http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/linguistics/russell/phonetics/narrower/dark-l.html


 
Muchas gracias por la información. Yo no sabía de esas dos l's diferentes. Nota, esos alófonos de la "l" no existen en español. 
Saludos


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## phosphore

You're welcome.

Back to topic, my mother tongue is Serbian and I have no difficulty in pronouncing words like _esperanza_ or _alzar_. Maybe you should practise more, Salazaar.


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## Salazaar

Now I know where my problem lays. It's the thing that in polish I swallow this "n" just like I do in spanish. For example:
- ¿Sabes el inglés? - the n is really "light" (I don't know the professional name)
So the problem makes even bigger if after that "n" there is a sound that doesn't exist in polish...I guess I shall practice more..


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## phosphore

In "inglés" it is the velar /ŋ/ or uvular nasal /N/ that occurs, but in Serbian, as well as in Spanish, it is just an allophone of the "regular n", the alveolar nasal /n/, occuring before the velar consonants.


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## Salazaar

I produce /ŋ/ sound in "inglés". So maybe it's ok But I also produce this sound in "esperanza"  While, I think, in spanish its /n/. Am I wrong?


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## phosphore

I think it is all right to say /espe'raŋθa/ or even just /espe'rãθa/. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_phonology#Phonetic_notes


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## Salazaar

That would be great, because saying /n/ in esperanza (while pronuncing "c" in spanish spain way) is very difficult to me But I'll try to ask in sólo español forum, as it was suggested


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