# King Alcohol



## Amatus

In England there is much hoohaha about the evils of smoking, and legislation is in force restricting smokers from smoking in public places, and we're constantly told of the evils that passive smoking brings on our children.  But what about the evils of alcohol?  When was the last time you heard of a smoker's losing control of his vehicle and ploughing into a schoolchild?  Or of a brawl breaking out in the street over a fag (a cigarette)?  

People will say that alcohol is indispensible at a party, for it relaxes one; can't one relax without his brain's being switched off?  When the party goer returns home to his kids, is he still in a rational frame of mind?  If it is wrong to be in charge of a vehicle in an intoxicated state, is it not also wrong when one is in charge of children in such a state?  How many women are raped when they've had one too many?  

Every Friday and Saturday British hospitals are packed with injured drinkers who expect treatment for injuries sustained after a fight, and with their victims.  They are packed with the victims of drunken drivers.

In Britain, people generally drink in order to get drunk.

Personally, I would like to see pubs (bars) closed, and the only outlet available to the drinking public being off-licences, and the law stipulating that one must take the alcohol home to be consumed, and any one caught flouting the law, by drinking in the street, severely punished.

Does anyone have any views on this matter?


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## .   1

I am glad that I am not British so that I am not insulted by this rather broad accusation that people in Britian generally drink in order to get drunk.
I thought that people in Britian drank for exactly the same reason as people who are not from Britian.
I drink very little and agree that the small percentage of poor buggers who are in the grip o' the grape do consume more of the hospital system than do I but I am not interested in another attempt at prohibition in any way.

Why should I have the right to tell Fred and Sam that they are not allowed to enjoy a quiet one or two after work with their mates down at the local rubbedy dub because Aunt Mable has her knickers in a twist about a tiny minority of abusers?

Live and let live.  Alcohol appears to be a necessary social lubricant for many people and an evil for a tiny minority.  I am sorry for the tiny minority but I can not see that as a reason to impinge on a social custom that has been continuing unabated for about 10,000 years.

.,,


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## invictaspirit

Sorry, mucker. This is nonsensical.

What is true is that a small minority of people in Britain "drink to get drunk". Sadly, they are a highly visible and loud minority in _some_ pubs in _some_ towns.

Your post seems to make a majestically sweeping generalisation that this is what all Britons do.

It isn't.

I drink to be social. I am now in my 40s and have a young family and do not often tap into my local nightlife. However, when I do (various towns and villages in Kent, central London, various other London neighbourhoods) I drink in extremely pleasant and fun bars and pubs where there is never any problem at all. I very rarely see anything bad. I see and hear a lot of loud behaviour in streets, a lot of boisterous showing-off...and this can be irritating and so on...but never the carnage the media would have us believe exists everywhere.

My neighbour is a triage nurse at Maidstone General. She is currently talking to my wife in the living room. She said that on Friday night, 14 people were admitted with either alcohol poisoning or fight-related injuries. Maidstone General covers the whole of the middle of Kent...an area of well over 200,000 people. 14 drunks will seem an irritating and difficult number to deal with. But out of 200,000 locals? It's not really the catastrophe you paint, right?

I have never laid a finger on anyone.  I have spent much of the last 20 years going out in London, Bristol, Brighton, Manchester and am often still found walking through the town centres of Canterbury, Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells late at night after a restaurant meal.  I can think of some towns I would avoid and one or two pubs near where I live I would not go in.  In all that time I can count the really nasty drink-related problems I have witnessed.  It's about seven.  Between 1982 and 2007.  It's not much. Why should the millions of Brits who don't get that drunk and don't cause trouble suffer alcohol bans because some morons do? 

The media make people so hysterical in this country.


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## batka

Everywhere there are people who get drunk just to get drunk...oO but doesn't mean they'll go away to commit crimes in their drunk state of mind oO 
there also those who like to drink a beer or two while meeting with friends to hang out/talk/catch up...it's pretty common, I think.
And I don't think people who drank too much should be allowed to drive nor are they capable of taking good care of kids, but if they haven't drunk enough for it affect their common sense and awareness of their responsibilities then let's not exaggerate...
And about this rape thing...it's not wise to drink with people whom you can't trust, I always say that...but drinking itself doesn't necessarily mean being irresponsible. ;]


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## don maico

Amatus said:


> In England there is much hoohaha about the evils of smoking, and legislation is in force restricting smokers from smoking in public places, and we're constantly told of the evils that passive smoking brings on our children.  But what about the evils of alcohol?  When was the last time you heard of a smoker's losing control of his vehicle and ploughing into a schoolchild?  Or of a brawl breaking out in the street over a fag (a cigarette)?
> 
> People will say that alcohol is indispensible at a party, for it relaxes one; can't one relax without his brain's being switched off?  When the party goer returns home to his kids, is he still in a rational frame of mind?  If it is wrong to be in charge of a vehicle in an intoxicated state, is it not also wrong when one is in charge of children in such a state?  How many women are raped when they've had one too many?
> 
> Every Friday and Saturday British hospitals are packed with injured drinkers who expect treatment for injuries sustained after a fight, and with their victims.  They are packed with the victims of drunken drivers.
> 
> In Britain, people generally drink in order to get drunk.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see pubs (bars) closed, and the only outlet available to the drinking public being off-licences, and the law stipulating that one must take the alcohol home to be consumed, and any one caught flouting the law, by drinking in the street, severely punished.
> 
> Does anyone have any views on this matter?



People dont have to go to pubs to get drunk so the idea that one should close pubs in order to curtail drinking not ony offends the many who believe in individual liberties but is also wrong headed. Pubs are an essential element in the social fabric of our country. People meet there to converse and share their daily experiences.I personlly rarely go to pubs but value their  existance so I find the very notion that we should close them offensive.
Drinking alcohol is very much part of our culture. At some points we may do so to excess. I say that as long as we do no harm in the process that is fine. Most drinkers dont


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## Athaulf

Amatus said:


> Personally, I would like to see pubs (bars) closed, and the only outlet available to the drinking public being off-licences, and the law stipulating that one must take the alcohol home to be consumed, and any one caught flouting the law, by drinking in the street, severely punished.
> 
> Does anyone have any views on this matter?



Yes, I think that your attitude on this issue is extremely arrogant and smacks of a general desire to push other people around  and force them to live their lives according to your stringent puritan moralistic visions.  

Unfortunately, considering the trends in the modern Western societies, your ideas will likely have an increasingly widespread popular support in the future, so you can indeed relish in the thought that the future is probably yours in the mid-to-long run.   As for me, I'll certainly enjoy my beers with my buddies while I still can, and hope that the governments will continue finding the revenues from alcohol taxes as more tempting than the political points from catering to the prohibitionists like you.


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## don maico

hear hear!


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## Paulfromitaly

invictaspirit said:


> What is true is that a small minority of people in Britain "drink to get drunk".



A small minority? I'm not that sure, because if it was really a small minority it'd mean I personally know  them all! The answer I get from most of the British people I know (from  20 up to 50 year old) when I ask them what they are going to do on a Friday or Saturday night is always "out on a piss up"..
Every time I'm over to Edinburgh or Newcastle and I'm out with mates on the weekend it's hard to find someone in pubs, clubs or simply along the street who's not at least tipsy..


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## .   1

I can not resist responding to this even though I don't have any direct experience of Britian.
These same comments are regularly made by rabble rousing talk show jocks seeking to stir controversy.



Paulfromitaly said:


> A small minority? I'm not that sure, because it was really a small minority it'd mean I personally know them all!


I suspect that you may need to consider paying royalties to Groucho Marx for the blatent lift. It is a wonderfully funny line but no more than that.



Paulfromitaly said:


> The answer I get from most of the British people I know (from 20 up to 50 year old) when I ask them what they are going to do on a Friday or Saturday night is always "out on a piss up"..


Is this a reflection of British society or your social circle?



Paulfromitaly said:


> Every time I'm over to Edinburgh or Newcastle and I'm out with mates on the weekend it's hard to find someone in pubs, clubs or simply along the street who's not at least tipsy..


How surprised are you that people in pubs and clubs and on the street, presumably not too far from pubs and clubs and presumably observed by you when you attend the establishments that are designed to sell alcohol, are under the effects of alcohol?? I don't see too many staggerers at the museum and there is a marked absence of dribblers at the beach and not too many bicyclists appear too drunk when I go to parks and let's not forget the dog walkers and the bird watchers and the bee keepers and the tree huggers and the writers and poets and dreamers and the miscellaneous humanity that do not find the need to be enmeshed by pubs and clubs and the streets surrounding them.
How do you know that they're tipsy and not stoned or tired or sick or confused or suffering from a reaction to a bad prawn or a contaminated ice cube? Experienced police officers are not considered to be expert witnesses to give opinions of levels of intoxication yet you deem yourself to be able to do this after a cursory glance from across the street.
My 18 year old daughter just nipped down the street for an ice cream with one of her mates. She's not interested in the ice cream but it is an excuse for her and her friend to enjoy each other's company and not be ripped off by a publican selling outrageously overpriced low quality grog.

The problem is that when you are out and about you do not notice the quiet, peaceful, well behaved dogs being walked by their responsible owner. You only notice and remember the arsehole with the huge Wolfhound on steroids wandering at large. This is the same for young people. You would probably not even really see the myriad smiling young kids out to the movies or the dances or the other places just having a good time. There is no reason for that to stick in your memory because they are no threat to you but the tiny number of drunken louts draw ugly amounts of attention to themselves and wind up as stock footage on the 6pm news.

.,,


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## Paulfromitaly

. said:


> Is this a reflection of British society or your social circle?


The point is that I'm not a member of any social circle: I know young guys and girls, brickies, lawyers, a doctor, housewives..but more or less the answer I get is always the same, because they all seem to love getting very pissed.


> How do you know that they're tipsy and not stoned or tired or sick or confused or suffering from a reaction to a bad prawn or a contaminated ice cube?


I suspect that you may need to consider paying royalties to Groucho Marx for the blatent lift too..
How many people who had bad prawn or a contaminated ice cube do you really think you could see on a Friday night along the street? maybe 1 over 1000? 
When people are so hammered that they can't even walk straight and they stink of alcohol, I assume they are pissed, but of course it's a guess.


> The problem is that when you are out and about you do not notice the quiet, peaceful, well behaved dogs being walked by their responsible owner. You only notice and remember the arsehole with the huge Wolfhound on steroids wandering at large. This is the same for young people. You would probably not even really see the myriad smiling young kids out to the movies or the dances or the other places just having a good time. There is no reason for that to stick in your memory because they are no threat to you but the tiny number of drunken louts draw ugly amounts of attention to themselves and wind up as stock footage on the 6pm news.
> 
> .,,


I agree with you more than you would think and I'm not judging anyone's behaviour.
My point is merely statistical: I don't think that saying that "only a* small minority* of people in Britain drink to get drunk" reflects reality.


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## fenixpollo

batka said:


> And about this rape thing...it's not wise to drink with people whom you can't trust, I always say that...but drinking itself doesn't necessarily mean being irresponsible. ;]


 That's false. Alcohol is so highly prized precisely because it affects on the brain by lowering inhibitions, which results in irresponsible behavior. Even though people who drink don't always act irresponsibly, the two usually go hand in hand. In addition, your post suggests that you believe that people who engage in drunken "date-rape" only do so because they're untrustworthy and not because they're drunk... which is patently false. 





Athaulf said:


> Yes, I think that your attitude on this issue is extremely arrogant and smacks of a general desire to push other people around  and force them to live their lives according to your stringent puritan moralistic visions.


 How do you know that Amatus has puritan moralistic visions? Maybe she/he was a victim of a drunk driver, or a date-rapist?  

Not that I support the criminalization of alcohol, but it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth to read several posts in which the destructive effects of alcohol are downplayed or denied.


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## chics

Cigarrettes and alcohol are both druggs.

Cigarretes (and cigars, etc) are not as the other things we may ingest or consume because we never know of which substances are they compound. We always force to all food, medicine and alcohols to list all their compounds. We ban lots of dangerous substances, carcinogenic ones, etc.

It would be good that smoking products followed the same laws as rest of food and medecines; or, if not; to ban them.

And also there is the thing that when someone smokes he kills the others.

Alcohol is not good, but it doesn't kill directly people that is sitting in the same room where others consume it. We know their compounds and they must be legal. So at this moment there's still a long way to run to even compare the laws related to both drugs.

Greetings.


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## mirx

Amatus said:


> In England there is much hoohaha about the evils of smoking, and legislation is in force restricting smokers from smoking in public places, and we're constantly told of the evils that passive smoking brings on our children. But what about the evils of alcohol? When was the last time you heard of a smoker's losing control of his vehicle and ploughing into a schoolchild? Or of a brawl breaking out in the street over a fag (a cigarette)?
> 
> People will say that alcohol is indispensible at a party, for it relaxes one; can't one relax without his brain's being switched off? When the party goer returns home to his kids, is he still in a rational frame of mind? If it is wrong to be in charge of a vehicle in an intoxicated state, is it not also wrong when one is in charge of children in such a state? How many women are raped when they've had one too many?
> 
> Every Friday and Saturday British hospitals are packed with injured drinkers who expect treatment for injuries sustained after a fight, and with their victims. They are packed with the victims of drunken drivers.
> 
> In Britain, people generally drink in order to get drunk.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see pubs (bars) closed, and the only outlet available to the drinking public being off-licences, and the law stipulating that one must take the alcohol home to be consumed, and any one caught flouting the law, by drinking in the street, severely punished.
> 
> Does anyone have any views on this matter?


 

I have noticed too, that many people in The Brtish Isles drink for the sole purpose of getting drunk, unlike France, or Italy where the purpose may be hidden by the so called "traditions".

I, personally, would *NOT* like to see pubs and the kind close. Even though it may not be a SMALL minority, there are a few who drink to have a good, responsible, safe, healthy time. We can not condemn the whole  society for the actions of many/some/few poeple who behave irresponsably.

I do agree, that there should be more restrictive regulations on alcohol consumption, although this is a well-rooted issue and it will take more than a couple of new laws to have it set. But I do believe that more can and must be done about it.


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## Cache

I used to think Argentina was one of the few countries who should fight against the excessive alcohol drunk, yet this issue is on the eye of many governments in the world.

If you enter the FCO webpage you will see they urge people not to go out at night in development countries since young folk get drunk and riots erupted.


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## invictaspirit

Paulfromitaly said:


> A small minority? I'm not that sure, because if it was really a small minority it'd mean I personally know them all! The answer I get from most of the British people I know (from 20 up to 50 year old) when I ask them what they are going to do on a Friday or Saturday night is always "out on a piss up"..
> Every time I'm over to Edinburgh or Newcastle and I'm out with mates on the weekend it's hard to find someone in pubs, clubs or simply along the street who's not at least tipsy..


 
OK...I'll define my terms. A small minority of Brits drink to get drunk, where drunk means so intoxicated that they become violent/injure themselves/crash cars. And where drunk means to deliberately become so messed up as to render themselves open to rape, or to need to have their stomachs pumped in A&E.  I am responding to the original posters apparent understanding of the word and situation.

*A lot* of Brits drink so that they become louder, more boisterous, their humour sillier, their inhibitions lowered, yes. 'Tipsy' as you say. Ehm...and this is Northern Europe. Culturally, 'tipsiness' (moderate, jovial, affectionate inebriation for those unfamilair with the word) is a cultural feature of an extremely large number of coutnries, although not, as you say, Italy. But those do not seem to be the terms of the original poster to whom I am replying, who paints a picture of society in drunken chaos, which is utter nonsense. And such people are completely harmless. You might find them annoying and that's fine. But they're not going to hurt you or cause any real harm to anyone.

However, as several posters have pointed out, every time you see a group of Brits who are annoyingly drunk in the street of a large city on a Friday night, you must *surely* be aware that there are even more who are having a romantic restaurant meal, at the theatre, at home watching TV, cooking something in the kitchen, reading a story to their children, working out at the gym and a hundred other passtimes or activities? If people are not aware of this, I don't know how they can be helped to be so.

If alcohol consumption in this country was as the original poster pointed out, I could not live here. I drink sometimes, and when I do, it is often several drinks. I get a warm, cosy feeling of well-being and a touch of innocent bravado, no doubt. But I have never harmed myself or anyone else. Neither has anyone in my family, nor any of my friends and nor anyone I have ever known, save a tiny handful of very rare exceptions. As I class myself as a completely normal bloke, with a very 'English' life, I can't imagine that I am particularly rare.

I repeat, for the sake of clarity, that I find it possible to go out in a very large number of south-eastern towns, and then London, Bristol, Manchester and some other places/regions where we have friends, and drink in great pubs and bars among happy, nice people...boisterous perhaps, but never dangerous. I haven't witnessed anything horrific or particularly tasteless for several years. Ironically, as I mentioned in a similar thread a while ago, the last time I saw really sickening drinking of alcohol was in Madrid, where every weekend in my barrio there was a phenomenon called the _botellon_, where 15-25s drank _calimocho_, a mix of cheap red plonk and Coke, until they vomited over themselves and each other and fought each other and the police. In the UK in the last few years I have seen a guy threatening a taxi driver with violence, another guy puking in an alley and an ugly, low-class girl exposing her breasts while crossing the road...and that's about it.


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## Amityville

invictaspirit said:


> an ugly, low-class girl exposing her breasts while crossing the road...and that's about it.


 
I'm sorry you said that, invicta, I was kind of with you up to there. Presumably a pretty upper-class girl would have been just boisterous. Are you saying it's just the ugly under-classes who give the country a bad name ?


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## Alxmrphi

I will admit I drink to get drunk, when I go out. That's sort of *the point* isn't it, for the effects it has on your body? Makes you more lively, friendly (to me) and generally happier, and thus when I go out on weekends, I drink to get drunk.

I don't fight, never have done in my life, I don't do any aggressive things, I just like to talk, and usually it's quite philosophical or deeply emotional, and I like that, and I don't care about anybody who tells me that my view is wrong on this issue, I blatantly don't care. I'm not harming anyone else and I don't think they deserve a view on what I like to do, if all effects are confined to myself.

A lot of people see this "drink to get drunk" issue as meaning wanting to fight, going to rape people, cause general damage, the people with these views aren't anyone in their student years, as any one of them can tell you, it's not that many who drink to get drunk, that everyone older refers to by "that crowd".



> The media make people so hysterical in this country.



.... unfortunatly


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## Athaulf

fenixpollo said:


> How do you know that Amatus has puritan moralistic visions? Maybe she/he was a victim of a drunk driver, or a date-rapist?



Even if he/she is, how would that justify calls for cracking down on us who belong to neither category? Regardless of how badly victimized someone might have been, I instantly lose sympathy and compassion for them as soon as they start developing hatred and hostility towards broad categories of people without any relevant connection with the perpetrators (which is unfortunately a very frequent phenomenon).

Just like, for example, war victims often develop pathological nationalist hatred towards all people of the same ethnicity as those concrete individuals who hurt them, so do many victims of various crimes develop pathological zeal for struggle against what they imagine to be the "root causes" of the crimes that were perpetrated against them. In both cases, when I find myself on the receiving end of the hatred and hostility of such people despite having no relevant connection with the actual culprits, why would I feel any less insulted and threatened than if their obsessions had different causes?



> Not that I support the criminalization of alcohol, but it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth to read several posts in which the destructive effects of alcohol are downplayed or denied.


I have observed these destructive effects first-hand in several cases, and frankly, I would say that it's somewhat misleading to call them "effects."  I've never seen people who are successful and happy with their life suddenly ruining themselves by excessive drinking; from what I've seen, people start with problematic drinking out of sheer depression and desperation in the first place (though they might maintain a happy-looking facade).  On the other hand, I've seen plenty of happy people drinking ridiculous amounts of alcohol without any harmful effect on the rest of their lives.  Thus, I believe that it's misleading to present alcohol as an evil that somehow has an inherent corrupting and destructive effect.  

As for the violence, rape, and drunk driving, feel free to propose crackdown on such people as hard as you like; I won't object.    I don't even have a car, and my last violent act was a minor scuffle with a classmate when I was 12 or 13, despite being hammered on quite a few occasions since then.


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## invictaspirit

Amityville said:


> I'm sorry you said that, invicta, I was kind of with you up to there. Presumably a pretty upper-class girl would have been just boisterous. Are you saying it's just the ugly under-classes who give the country a bad name ?


 
She was ugly and she was low-class.  If I ever see a pretty, upper-class girl drunkenly exposing her breasts to traffic, I'll be sure to let you know.  I'm not sure why you assume I would find that merely boisterous.  I think it looks tacky, whoever the girl might be.


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## maxiogee

invictaspirit said:


> She was ugly and she was low-class.  If I ever see a pretty, upper-class girl drunkenly exposing her breasts to traffic, I'll be sure to let you know.  I'm not sure why you assume I would find that merely boisterous.  I think it looks tacky, whoever the girl might be.



Surely , were the young woman pretty, you'd be too busy admiring the 'English rose' complexion of her face to notice her décolletage, or lack thereof?


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## .   1

invictaspirit said:


> an ugly, low-class girl exposing her breasts while crossing the road...and that's about it.


I took this to mean ugly in the second sense from the Collins dictionary;
ugly adj 2 repulsive, objectionable, or displeasing in any way: _war is ugly_.

I will make a confession that may make me appear to be a chauvenist pig but it is very difficult for me to imagine a girl intentionally exposing her breasts and describe the scene as physically ugly.

It just doesn't make sense to my way of looking at things so I assumed that there was something repulsive about the attitude of the girl; as though she was leering or taunting or being abusive or something.

I'm sorry but intentionally bare breasts and physically ugly just don't go together in my mind.

.,,


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## don maico

Alex_Murphy said:


> I will admit I drink to get drunk, when I go out. That's sort of *the point* isn't it, for the effects it has on your body? Makes you more lively, friendly (to me) and generally happier, and thus when I go out on weekends, I drink to get drunk.
> 
> I don't fight, never have done in my life, I don't do any aggressive things, I just like to talk, and usually it's quite philosophical or deeply emotional, and I like that, and I don't care about anybody who tells me that my view is wrong on this issue, I blatantly don't care. I'm not harming anyone else and I don't think they deserve a view on what I like to do, if all effects are confined to myself.
> 
> A lot of people see this "drink to get drunk" issue as meaning wanting to fight, going to rape people, cause general damage, the people with these views aren't anyone in their student years, as any one of them can tell you, it's not that many who drink to get drunk, that everyone older refers to by "that crowd".
> 
> 
> 
> .... unfortunatly



Trouble is when you see the way lager louts behave in some holiday locations one can understand why some foreigners hold their hands up in horror . Nevertheless they'll never understand our love of drink and getting somewhat drunk. Goes back centuries, doesnt it?

Lets be honest the English are a bit ,err shall we say ,reserved and drink gives us the green light to express ourselves. Long may the tradition continue


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## gaer

Amatus said:


> When was the last time you heard of a smoker's losing control of his vehicle and ploughing into a schoolchild?


I don't agree with your proposed solutions. The majority of people drink in a way that I consider reasonable and responsible.

On the other hand, I have nearly been killed twice by drunken drivers in the US, and a third drunk demolished my car while I was asleep even though it was not even parked on the road.

The last person who almost killed me and my family left the country after hitting us, hiding out in Mexico. It is a miracle we were not all killed, since this fool drove around the wrong side of a line of cars, then plowed into us while we were stopped at a light, spinning the whole car around.

That's three times I've had cars destroyed by drunks.

Minor problem? No way!

I don't believe that it is much different in other countries in which alcohol is a "legal drug".

I agree that all of you who are responsible should be allowed to drink as you please.

However, please don't down-play the fact that alcohol is a _*potentially*_ very dangerous drug.

As I see it, the solution is not banning alcohol but educating people to recognize potential problems and how to do something about them before they ruin their lives.

My dad drank almost every night of his life and never once was anything less than charming. He was a shy man, and drinking just made him glow.

My mother, on the other hand, started fights and turned into a person I didn't like very much.

My brother and one cousin drink moderately and responsibly. Another cousin is an alcoholic, and so was my grandfather, who lost his job (had to retire early) because of the problem.

I don't think that out-of-control drinking is a minor problem. Even if only a small minority of the total population of any country drinks to excess, the problems they cause are definitely NOT minor.

Gaer


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## GEmatt

Amatus said:


> In England there is much hoohaha about the evils of smoking, and legislation is in force restricting smokers from smoking in public places, and we're constantly told of the evils that passive smoking brings on our children. But what about the evils of alcohol? When was the last time you heard of a smoker's losing control of his vehicle and ploughing into a schoolchild? Or of a brawl breaking out in the street over a fag (a cigarette)?





> In Britain, people generally drink in order to get drunk.


These are some statements. It needn't be mentioned that the effects on oneself and on those nearby of having a cigarette cannot be compared to the effects of having, say, a glass of wine. A cigarette is harmful to the smoker, and both harmful and unpleasant to those around him/her (and I say that as a smoker); a glass of wine or a pint of beer is not. That thing called "moderation" is completely lacking in your discourse, and I don't see how it can be constructive (or instructive, for that matter) to extend the bad habits of the few to the population at large.





> Personally, I would like to see pubs (bars) closed, and the only outlet available to the drinking public being off-licences, and the law stipulating that one must take the alcohol home to be consumed, and any one caught flouting the law, by drinking in the street, severely punished.


Right. Lethal injection, I suppose. And alcohol-fuelled brawls, rapes and general harm can't happen in the home?

I don't mind being cordoned off or confined to my own home in order to enjoy a cigarette ("I'm not addicted; I just like to smoke!"), but I'd probably resent being refused a glass of red to accompany a meal, on the grounds you have cited.





> As I see it, the solution is not banning alcohol but educating people to recognize potential problems and how to do something about them before they ruin their lives.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Lavinia.dNP

I don't understand how some people think that "tipsiness" is good.
In my idea, when you are tipsy, you don't have the complete control of what's happening, and therfore you enjoy less.
I'm not against having a drink or two, but no more, and I don't need alcohol in order to have fun, or to do something a bit crazy : I do it all the same!
Of course I like having a drink or two when I go out at night, but I wouldn't mind being at a party where there's no alcohol.

I don't think that alcohol should be banned, but I wouldn't be against strict controls on drunkenness, even for those who are not driving in order to avoid problems like riots.
In this way everybody could drink, but moderatedly, without getting drunk.

I cannot say anything about Great Britain, because I've been there only for a couple of weeks, but what i've seen on weekends in the streets of London is not really pleasant : a large amount of people were drunk, including beautiful and very well dressed girls ...what a shame!

Concerning the "drunk rape" problem, I wouldn't really call it a problem. If the girl gets herself drunk, it's only her fault, therefore, afterwards she doesn't have to complain if she did things that she wishes she didn't do : she just shouldn't have gotten drunk.
If it's the guy who is drunk and rapes the girl, I don't understand either : I would immediately get away if I saw that the guy is getting drunk, because anyway it's not the kind of people I like to hang around with.

Ok, just say I'm an obtuse "holier-than-thou", but I believe in a healthy way of having fun, and I had lots of fun in my life.


----------



## don maico

. said:


> Yeah, I imagine that I would have a hell of a hard time engaging in such banter in any language other than English.
> You did pretty well but the end was a tiny bit strong but that is probably just a taste thing and I am revealing my age by being a little prissy.  How weird for an Aussie to have been prissy about language but I have to put my hand up to acknowledge.
> The thing is that I have heard of 'ratarsed' but 'minger' is completely new to me and the combination of both just sounds harsh.
> I get your drift now.
> 
> See ya
> .,,


Somewhat off topic but just for your information:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=minger


----------



## invictaspirit

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I don't understand how some people think that "tipsiness" is good.
> In my idea, when you are tipsy, you don't have the complete control of what's happening, and therfore you enjoy less.
> I'm not against having a drink or two, but no more, and I don't need alcohol in order to have fun, or to do something a bit crazy : I do it all the same!
> Of course I like having a drink or two when I go out at night, but I wouldn't mind being at a party where there's no alcohol.
> 
> I don't think that alcohol should be banned, but I wouldn't be against strict controls on drunkenness, even for those who are not driving in order to avoid problems like riots.
> In this way everybody could drink, but moderatedly, without getting drunk.
> 
> I cannot say anything about Great Britain, because I've been there only for a couple of weeks, but what i've seen on weekends in the streets of London is not really pleasant : a large amount of people were drunk, including beautiful and very well dressed girls ...what a shame!
> 
> Concerning the "drunk rape" problem, I wouldn't really call it a problem. If the girl gets herself drunk, it's only her fault, therefore, afterwards she doesn't have to complain if she did things that she wishes she didn't do : she just shouldn't have gotten drunk.
> If it's the guy who is drunk and rapes the girl, I don't understand either : I would immediately get away if I saw that the guy is getting drunk, because anyway it's not the kind of people I like to hang around with.
> 
> Ok, just say I'm an obtuse "holier-than-thou", but I believe in a healthy way of having fun, and I had lots of fun in my life.


 
This is just pure cultural intolerance. Or perhaps you have misunderstood what 'tipsy' means? It doesn't mean unpleasantly drunk.

Let's define terms. *'Tipsy'* (as I understand it) describes a state of physical and mental behaviour when three or four beers, or five or six glasses of wine (etc etc) are imbibed by the human body. Where I come from, this does NOT involve any sort of unpleasant or alarming lack of behavioural or motor control (although it certainly and rightly does NOT involve using precision machinery, such as a car), and is the norm, not prohibiting any human ability to be 'crazy' or 'have fun' to be exercised. It is a generally pleasant sensation, involving no illness, violence or agression. If you do not wish to be tipsy, or very slightly drunk, that's fine. I respect your wish. My wife has a similar one and so do a great deal of people I know. I, however, and vast numbers of north Europeans and often southern Europeans, do not share your view. In many countries, including my own, it is totally possible for the two types of people to co-exist.

As this thread started with a very narrow, national definition of alcohol consumption, I feel vaguely justified in continuing it. The French and Italians, and a very small number of other European countries, have a cultural objection to tipsiness. However, in my 42 years I have noticed that tipsiness is completely normal and entirely socially accepted by: ahem...here we go...and feel free to argue... Britons, Irish, Poles, Danes, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Finns, Norwegians, Icelanders, Estonians, Russians, Dutch, Flemish, Hungarians, Czechs, Ukranians, Americans, Brazilians, Mexicans, Argentinians, Colombians, Australians, New Zealanders and several other nationalities by whom I have been joyfully plied with alcohol, in many cases to levels which I have found excessive.

I'll go further. I have mentioned a small number of nationalities above where public drunkenness is on a scale which would be considered extremely excessive in the UK. There are countries I have visited and know well, where the prime (though not exclusive) mode of alcohol consumption is almost entirely silent, gloomy, obsessive, depressing, VAST and almost totally male. A quiet, sad, ritualistic knocking back of successive small glasses strong spirits without conversation, without joy, often without companions, until collapse or violence breaks the rhythm. That is virtually unheard of in the UK. Possibly one or two sad lunatics in every town do so here, but it is not the usual way of drinking alcohol and *it is in some societies*. At least here it is seen as a joyfull, social, noisy thing to do, that might involve song, joking, silliness.

I understand and respect why you don't want to drink very much. What on earth is the matter with you that you can't understand and respect why others want to drink a little more, in ways that do not harm you or even themselves? We would both share distaste in harmful, damaging excess, I imagine. Tipsiness is a way of life in most countries. Not France, and especially not Italy. But most places. Can't you be more open-minded?


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

don maico said:


> Trouble is when you see the way lager louts behave in some holiday locations one can understand why some foreigners hold their hands up in horror . Nevertheless they'll never understand our love of drink and getting somewhat drunk. Goes back centuries, doesnt it?
> 
> Lets be honest the English are a bit ,err shall we say ,reserved and drink gives us the green light to express ourselves. Long may the tradition continue


 
I'm sorry to say that, but I don't agree with your view.

No one needs to get drunk in order to express himself or have fun.

Just learn to free your mind without any need of substances and you'll feel a lot better.

Otherwise, it's like saying that drugs are good because they make you express yourself better.


----------



## don maico

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I'm sorry to say that, but I don't agree with your view.
> 
> No one needs to get drunk in order to express himself or have fun.
> 
> Just learn to free your mind without any need of substances and you'll feel a lot better.
> 
> Otherwise, it's like saying that drugs are good because they make you express yourself better.



Well we are the way we are whether you agree with it or not.Its probably our greatest pleasure and we'll be damned if we are going ot let others tell us that we should not do it. It would be rather like me telling the Frenchies not to eat  foie gras or veal because we dont like the way the respective animals are reared.
Alcohol forms an intrinsic party of British culture, drinking 3 or 4 pints of beer 3 times a week is quite normal.Drinking a botte of wine 3 or 4 times a week is becoming increasingly more common. Getting sloshed and making complete fools of ourselves is something we do on occasions and most people dont mind as long as we dont harm anyone.You need  to understand that the Englishman is reserved by nature and drink allows him to "let his hair down". Maybe its our upbringing that makes us so.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

invictaspirit said:


> This is just pure cultural intolerance. Or perhaps you have misunderstood what 'tipsy' means? It doesn't mean unpleasantly drunk.
> 
> Let's define terms. *'Tipsy'* (as I understand it) describes a state of physical and mental behaviour when three or four beers, or five or six glasses of wine (etc etc) are imbibed by the human body. Where I come from, this does NOT involve any sort of unpleasant or alarming lack of behavioural or motor control (although it certainly and rightly does NOT involve using precision machinery, such as a car), and is the norm, not prohibiting any human ability to be 'crazy' or 'have fun' to be exercised. It is a generally pleasant sensation, involving no illness, violence or agression. If you do not wish to be tipsy, or very slightly drunk, that's fine. I respect your wish. My wife has a similar one and so do a great deal of people I know. I, however, and vast numbers of north Europeans and often southern Europeans, do not share your view. In many countries, including my own, it is totally possible for the two types of people to co-exist.
> 
> As this thread started with a very narrow, national definition of alcohol consumption, I feel vaguely justified in continuing it. The French and Italians, and a very small number of other European countries, have a cultural objection to tipsiness. However, in my 42 years I have noticed that tipsiness is completely normal and entirely socially accepted by: ahem...here we go...and feel free to argue... Britons, Irish, Poles, Danes, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Finns, Norwegians, Icelanders, Estonians, Russians, Dutch, Flemish, Hungarians, Czechs, Ukranians, Americans, Brazilians, Mexicans, Argentinians, Colombians, Australians, New Zealanders and several other nationalities by whom I have been joyfully plied with alcohol, in many cases to levels which I have found excessive.
> 
> I'll go further. I have mentioned a small number of nationalities above where public drunkenness is on a scale which would be considered extremely excessive in the UK. There are countries I have visited and know well, where the prime (though not exclusive) mode of alcohol consumption is almost entirely silent, gloomy, obsessive, depressing, VAST and almost totally male. A quiet, sad, ritualistic knocking back of successive small glasses strong spirits without conversation, without joy, often without companions, until collapse or violence breaks the rhythm. That is virtually unheard of in the UK. Possibly one or two sad lunatics in every town do so here, but it is not the usual way of drinking alcohol and *it is in some societies*. At least here it is seen as a joyfull, social, noisy thing to do, that might involve song, joking, silliness.
> 
> I understand and respect why you don't want to drink very much. What on earth is the matter with you that you can't understand and respect why others want to drink a little more, in ways that do not harm you or even themselves? We would both share distaste in harmful, damaging excess, I imagine. Tipsiness is a way of life in most countries. Not France, and especially not Italy. But most places. Can't you be more open-minded?


 
Ok, I admit, I come from a different culture where tipsiness is not seen as necessary in order to have fun.
In Italy we don't need to be tipsy in order to laugh, be noisy,sing , joke, and behave in a silly way. We know how to have fun in a healthy way, without the help of any substance.


----------



## CrazyArcher

I can't imagine my social life without pubs. In most cases, when I go out with my friends, we meet in a pub. Alcohol plays an important role here: to enjoy the taste of beer, and to make the talk easier among us. Without alcohol, it's harder to make the jokes, laughs, and curious stories flow as they do at a pub. Of course, no one of us drinks to the point of becoming violent or lacking self-control. Can't imagine what's wrong with that.
If everything we wanted was to get drunk, then we would just buy the cheapest vodka, go to the nearest park, and get wasted.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

CrazyArcher said:


> I can't imagine my social life without pubs. In most cases, when I go out with my friends, we meet in a pub. Alcohol plays an important role here: to enjoy the taste of beer, and to make the talk easier among us. Without alcohol, it's harder to make the jokes, laughs, and curious stories flow as they do at a pub. Of course, no one of us drinks to the point of becoming violent or lacking self-control. Can't imagine what's wrong with that.
> If everything we wanted was to get drunk, then we would just buy the cheapest vodka, go to the nearest park, and get wasted.


 
Then I must understand that you all have a sort of "personality problem", since you all seem to need alcohol in order to talk and joke freely.

Here is the question I'd like you to think about : why can't you be yourselves without alcohol?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Drinking is a MASSIVE part of the culture here in Ireland. If you think about it, there's probably an Irish bar in just about every major city in the world. That's not to say it's a good thing though. Most young people here (and I used to be like them) head out to pubs and clubs with the sole intent of getting hammered. It's not a pretty sight at 2AM seeing people fighting and falling all over the place. Add drugs like ecstasy and cocaine into the mix and, well you get the picture.


----------



## emma42

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Then I must understand that you all have a sort of "personality problem", since you all seem to need alcohol in order to talk and joke freely.
> 
> Here is the question I'd like you to think about : why can't you be yourselves without alcohol?



Dear Lavinia, that is a little bit offensive, you know.  We haven't all got personality problems - drinking alcohol, often to excess, is a part of our culture and has been around for a very long time.  You have to accept that just because another culture is different from yours, it is not necessarily "problem"[atic].

I am not championing excessive drinking, however.  I think that alcohol abuse in this country is at dangerous levels.  Drink related deaths continue to rise, and it is socially acceptable to drink far too much.


----------



## Lavinia.dNP

emma42 said:


> Dear Lavinia, that is a little bit offensive, you know. We haven't all got personality problems - drinking alcohol, often to excess, is a part of our culture and has been around for a very long time. You have to accept that just because another culture is different from yours, it is not necessarily "problem"[atic].
> 
> I am not championing excessive drinking, however. I think that alcohol abuse in this country is at dangerous levels. Drink related deaths continue to rise, and it is socially acceptable to drink far too much.


 
I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone, therefore I apologize if anyone took offence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here everybody seems to say that since excessive drinking has always been an element of British or Irish culture, it is therefore considered as a nice and good thing, and almost encouraged.

Now, let's make an example the other way round : loud talking has always been an element of my culture. Therefore, following your reasoning, I should say that talking too loud is a nice and pleasant thing. But the matter is that I won't label something as "good" on the sole basis that it has been in my culture for thousand years, and I think that loud talking is extremely annoying.

On the same basis, the fact that excessive drinking has been a part of your culture for centuries is not a valid excuse to label it as "good" and acceptable.

And for those who say that drunk people don't disturb anyone, I agree, as long as they don't drive or fight.
I agree that it's their own problem, not mine, but if you take a walk in the streets of London on a friday night, the sight is far from being rejoicing.


----------



## emma42

Dear Lavinia.  Your example of "loud talking" in your culture is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to.  It's not as acceptable in my culture as in your culture, but I would not say that constitutes a problem or that Italian people have "problem personalities" because it is different from what I am used to.  I would accept it as part of a foreign culture.  I have learned a lot about trying not to judge other cultures and traditions too quickly from being a member of this Forum, and I am very grateful for that.

I don't say that all excessive drinking is a nice and pleasant thing, but I do say that it is "accepted", if not "acceptable" to a large extent in this country.  I never said it was "good".  I don't actually like it.

I now realise you didn't mean to be offensive, and thanks for saying that.


----------



## .   1

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but here everybody seems to say that since excessive drinking has always been an element of British or Irish culture, it is therefore considered as a nice and good thing, and almost encouraged.


From my understanding there have been more people saying that excessive consumption of alcohol is not a problem in British culture or their own culture in general than the reverse. 
There is some excessive alcohol consumption in every culture, even Italian culture must have some excessive drinkers.

You say that Italians do not need to have alcohol to enjoy themselves in public.
Are there very many villages or towns in Italy that do not have numerous places at which the general public may purchase and drink alcohol in a public venue?

.,,


----------



## invictaspirit

I'd give up with Lavinia, folks. My wife is half-Italian (Italian father, raised in the UK) and we visit her many relatives and friends in Treviso several times a year. We often sit in the main piazza there chatting and drinking. The Italians will generally order one drink and nurse it for an hour. I'll drink two or three small beers. The second beer raises a couple of eyebrows with her aunts and the third inspires comments and raised eyebrows from everyone. This is three tiny beers in maybe 90 minutes. You may not be surprised to learn that I remain entirely polite, coherent, vertically stable and civilised throughout.   It's totally cultural, but Italians seem to believe it is they that are normal.

I'm disappointed in Lavinia, though. She seems very badly travelled despite being resident in Paris. Her constant comments about GB ignore the fact that it is Italy (and to a lesser extent France) that is anomalous in their attitudes to very mild inebriation. The alarm and whispering that 3 very small beers in 90 minutes causes in Treviso is an attitude that would be regarded as strange in virtually any European country. I also ask once more...what is *wrong* with me after 3 small beers? Or even 4? I am in every sense in control of my speech, behaviour and thought. I barely change at all. Why the need to look down one's nose at me? I am confident, forthcoming and friendly whether or not I have had a couple of small drinks. I don't turn into Satan!

I also think her comments about London are ridiculous. I eat out in Central London regularly on Fridays, sometimes go to the theatre and occasionally meet friends for a few drinks. I simply don't recognise this orgy of public drunknness she describes.

God help the locals if Lavinia ever visits Helsinki!


----------



## Paulfromitaly

. said:


> There is some excessive alcohol consumption in every culture, even Italian culture must have some excessive drinkers.



Oh yeah! we do have our autochthonous pissheads 


> You say that Italians do not need to have alcohol to enjoy themselves in public.
> Are there very many villages or towns in Italy that do not have numerous places at which the general public may purchase and drink alcohol in a public venue?
> 
> .,,


In Italy there are loads of pubs and wine bars and they are always quite crowded, therefore saying that Italians don't drink is not true at all.
In my opinion, the main difference between Italians and British is the "I drink to get drunk" attitude: it's something I rarely see or hear over here, whereas it seems to be more widespread in UK, Ireland and in other countries.
However I regret to admit that binge drinking is getting somewhat popular among teenagers along with one of the most awful habits some Italians have, that is drink-driving.


----------



## dtcarney

In Wisconsin I have to say that we drink a lot, casually and to get drunk.  There are a lot of incidents of drunk driving but it is declining with every generation.  They state lowered the blood alcohol content you can have while driving (0.08).  With my experiences with international students and students from other states in the U.S, my friends and I from Wisconsin look like alcoholics.  For us its normal to drink a lot, we come from a state that manufactures a lot of alcohol, the influence of a high rate of past German immigration, and especially since we are at the university.  I would say if you go out and get wasted and do not hurt yourself or anyone else, cheers!


----------



## emma42

Ah, but that's the problem, though, dtcarney.  You cannot avoid hurting yourself if you get "wasted". Alcohol is toxic.  Also, a proportion of people will become alcoholic and go on to hurt themselves and others.  I know I sound like a killjoy, but in societies such as yours and mine, (the abuse of) alcohol is so socially acceptable that people bury their heads in the sand about its effects.


----------



## GEmatt

invictaspirit said:


> It's totally cultural, but Italians seem to believe it is they that are normal.


Lavinia is free to have fun in any way she wants, and is also free to judge people who like a drink as much as she does wants. As long as the two never meet, what's the problem?



> The alarm and whispering that 3 very small beers in 90 minutes causes in Treviso is an attitude that would be regarded as strange in virtually any European country. I also ask once more...what is *wrong* with me after 3 small beers?


Whatever happened to "When in Rome..."? I'll tell you what's wrong. Satan or not, and culture be blowed, you're drinking at 4 times the rate they are, so it's not surprising they take you for a raving alcoholic.


> I am in every sense in control of my speech, behaviour and thought.


Ahem. Of course, I don't know you, invicta, but I thought that was what alcohol was supposed to make you believe. If I had a penny for every time a drunken colleague or friend has told me "I know what I'm doing!", why, I'd have enough cash to open my own brewery. Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of anything.
And with that, I'm off for a pint.
GEmatt


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

invictaspirit said:


> I also ask once more...what is *wrong* with me after 3 small beers? Or even 4? I am in every sense in control of my speech, behaviour and thought. I barely change at all. Why the need to look down one's nose at me? I am confident, forthcoming and friendly whether or not I have had a couple of small drinks. I don't turn into Satan!



I have heard similar comments from so many alcoholics and semi-alcoholics that I cannot even begin to count them up.  Basically you'd have to film them to get them to believe.  While not everyone who says this has an alcohol problem, just about everyone with an alcohol problem has said this.

Incidentally, I fail to understand why you feel it necessary to insult other members when trying to make a point.


----------



## .   1

GEmatt said:


> If I had a penny for every time a drunken colleague or friend has told me "I know what I'm doing!", why, I'd have enough cash to open my own brewery.


Shakespeare knew what he was saying in The Scottish Play.
*Macduff*
What three things does drink especially provoke? 
*Porter* 
Marry, sir, nose-painting, sleep, and urine. 
Lechery, sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance. 
Therefore, much drink may be said to be an equivocator with lechery: it makes him, and it mars him; it sets him on, and it takes him off; it persuades him, and disheartens him; makes him stand to, and not stand to; in conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep, and, giving him the lie, leaves him. 

Pretty much the same could be said for the effect of excessive alcohol consumption on deeply insightful wit.

.,,


----------



## don maico

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Ok, I admit, I come from a different culture where tipsiness is not seen as necessary in order to have fun.
> In Italy we don't need to be tipsy in order to laugh, be noisy,sing , joke, and behave in a silly way. We know how to have fun in a healthy way, without the help of any substance.



To be fair to you its well known that Italians are not heavy drinkers and that you feel more able to express yourselves freely than we are without the aid of copious amounts of booze.Maybe its your upbringing. We, in turn ,are by and large fairly buttoned up and when we get the opportunity,we like to let our hair down sometimes to the extent of making complete fools of ourselves. I must also state that most people in the Uk dont drink to excess, just a considerable number.And amongst those getting drunk is not seen as something shameful.We have more colloquiol terms for inebriation than any other nation. Even the mythical Father Christmas was someone associated with booze( be merry)unlike Santa Claus the American import


----------



## invictaspirit

Chaska Ñawi said:


> I have heard similar comments from so many alcoholics and semi-alcoholics that I cannot even begin to count them up. Basically you'd have to film them to get them to believe. While not everyone who says this has an alcohol problem, just about everyone with an alcohol problem has said this.
> 
> Incidentally, I fail to understand why you feel it necessary to insult other members when trying to make a point.


 
I don't believe that I insulted anyone.  Where?  I apologise if I have.

I'm not an alcoholic. I go for weeks without a drink and have no need to have one. My last consumption of alcohol was two glasses of wine at a meal at my parents' home last Friday. I'm a hard-working person who has just had a kid and see very many features of my life that are far more important than having a drink. Very occasionally I drink a few beers with friends, and am expressing surprise that this can not be culturally acceptable to some. It's bizarre. The attitude shown here by some folks is the flip-side of my castigating them for not drinking. I would never be so narrow-minded and I ask others not to be. It just seems polite not to be...


----------



## CrazyArcher

Lavinia: well, I probably have a personality problem, but that's what I've got. I'm consumed by the routine, and have little social life nowadays, I must admit. I can't act stupid and tell dirty jokes in my usual environment, so it makes me a dull person over time. When I _do_ meet my friends, once in a month maybe, it takes time to shake off the weariness... Without beer a meeting would be empty. If we won't be occupied by drinking, what would we do?


----------



## gaer

CrazyArcher said:


> Lavinia: well, I probably have a personality problem, but that's what I've got. I'm consumed by the routine, and have little social life nowadays, I must admit. I can't act stupid and tell dirty jokes in my usual environment, so it makes me a dull person over time. When I _do_ meet my friends, once in a month maybe, it takes time to shake off the weariness... Without beer a meeting would be empty. If we won't be occupied by drinking, what would we do?


You may have a personality problem. You may have a serious drinking problem later on. The life-expectancy of men in Russia is very low, and I have read more than once that excessive drinking may be a large factor.

You may have no problem at all. As I said earlier in this thread, my dad was a shy person, and drinking never affected him in a negative way.

Since we don't know you, none of us has the right to give you advice or judge your behavior.

I suggest that it would be better for us to discuss alcohol, in general, rather than to point fingers at individuals in the forum.

Gaer


----------



## emma42

Well said, gaer.  Crazyarcher is from a "boozing" country, as I am (this is not about him, though!).  I have lost count of the times I have heard people say, "Well, what do you do if you don't drink?" or "What's the point if you can't drink?" or "It's just boring without a drink".

Alcohol is just so much part of some countries' culture that such attitudes are widespread. And I can understand that - it has been all around me for many years.


----------



## don maico

Some months ago the drinking laws were relaxed so that some pubs and clubs could stay open later.This followed previous licencing law relaxation which allowed pubs to stay open throughout the day. Certain sections of the media made a huge fuss about it claming the streets would be awash with vomit, people would be harrassed and drink induced violence would increase dramatically. Where I live I have seen little or no evidence of any of this.If anything the fact that drinking hours have been increased greatly means that people dont feel under so much pressure to drink and enjoy themselves in a relatively few number of hours . They can extend their hours od drinking or embibe later after a show for example. Much more civilised I feel.


----------



## emma42

Yes, it is a lot more civilised.  Adults should be allowed to drink alcohol at whatever time they want to.  My problem is with the general attitude towards booze and excessive boozing in this country.  It does seem to depend on where one lives, certainly from some of the posts in this thread.  Where I live, some of the  pubs are full from morning until night with all-day drinkers.  I am not blaming the opening hours for the drinking, however.


----------



## gaer

emma42 said:


> Yes, it is a lot more civilised. Adults should be allowed to drink alcohol at whatever time they want to. My problem is with the general attitude towards booze and excessive boozing in this country. It does seem to depend on where one lives, certainly from some of the posts in this thread. Where I live, some of the pubs are full from morning until night with all-day drinkers. I am not blaming the opening hours for the drinking, however.


When I was growing up, I learned that anyone who did not drink alcohol was repressed or part of some kind of fundamentalist religion or just didn't know how to have fun.

When I met people later on who very definitely _*did*_ know how to have fun without drinking, I was shocked.

Are there any figures to back up the idea that there is more drinking going on in England, for example, than in other countries?

Gaer


----------



## Athaulf

gaer said:


> Are there any figures to back up the idea that there is more drinking going on in England, for example, than in other countries?



Here you can find a report by WHO with worldwide statistics on per capita alcohol consumption.  Note however that in most countries, a lot of home brewing and informal sale of alcohol takes place completely uncontrolled and unrecorded, so these statistics are practically worthless for any countries except those with the strongest and strictest rule of law.  They might provide a reasonably accurate picture for comparisons between the U.K. and other Western countries, though -- just don't use them to compare those countries with the rest of the world, because the figures reported for the latter are mostly gross underestimates.


----------



## .   1

Thanks Athaulf

So accounting for fibs by respondents (it is amazing to see that certain countries claim to have have utterly no alcohol consumption at all) by people where alcohol is illegal. It would appear that alcohol consumption coincidentally rose worldwide in line with tensions during the Cold War. I wonder how glogal terrorism will effect alcohol consumption.

.,,


----------



## Athaulf

. said:


> So accounting for fibs by respondents (it is amazing to see that certain countries claim to have have utterly no alcohol consumption at all) by people where alcohol is illegal. It would appear that alcohol consumption coincidentally rose worldwide in line with tensions during the Cold War. I wonder how glogal terrorism will effect alcohol consumption.



I think that those figures mostly reflect the data gathered by governments for the purpose of collecting alcohol taxes; obviously, in countries where alcohol is illegal, these figures will be zero, although the actual consumption is certainly well above zero.  (Which makes sense, considering the situation with any illegal drugs anywhere.)  

As for the global consumption through the recent decades, I think the unreliability of data on the global scale is much too large to allow any such conclusions.  I don't think that even a half of the alcohol produced and consumed worldwide is counted in any way that would make it possible to include it into these statistics, and it's impossible to know how exactly the uncounted part has fluctuated through decades.  

Otherwise, I'm somewhat surprised that Croatia is near the very top even when it comes to the registered alcohol consumption -- and believe me, almost every rural household there makes gallons of wine and/or brandy  every year, and a lot of it is also sold on peasant markets without any formal accounting or taxation.  So imagine what the actual figures might be.


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## yacht

I have to confess that I've never enjoyed myself ever without the aid of alcohol. In fact, I didn't think that such a thing was possible until I read the contributions from a couple of Mediterraneans in this thread. I think from now on I will just talk exaggeratedly loud and use over-enthusiastic hand gestures instead of getting smashed and having a good time (British style).


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## yacht

Although, just to clarify, witness the effect that alcohol can have on your sarcasm glands : _I have to confess that I've never enjoyed myself ever without the aid of alcohol. In fact, I didn't think that such a thing was possible until I read the contributions from a couple of Mediterraneans in this thread._


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## don maico

Intersting to note that France are near the top of that table- outsripping the UK .


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## gaer

Athaulf said:


> Here you can find a report by WHO with worldwide statistics on per capita alcohol consumption. Note however that in most countries, a lot of home brewing and informal sale of alcohol takes place completely uncontrolled and unrecorded, so these statistics are practically worthless for any countries except those with the strongest and strictest rule of law. They might provide a reasonably accurate picture for comparisons between the U.K. and other Western countries, though -- just don't use them to compare those countries with the rest of the world, because the figures reported for the latter are mostly gross underestimates.


That charts shown are a start, perhaps, for comparing Italy and the UK, if they are (for reasons you have mentioned) accurate.

I asked because I found it rather strange that the average Italian would be astonished by the amount of alcohol consumed by those from countries such as England. 

Gaer


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## GEmatt

> "Marry, sir, nose-painting, sleep, and urine.
> Lechery, sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance.
> Therefore, much drink may be said to be an equivocator with lechery: it makes him, and it mars him; it sets him on, and it takes him off; it persuades him, and disheartens him; makes him stand to, and not stand to; in conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep, and, giving him the lie, leaves him."
> 
> Pretty much the same could be said for the effect of excessive alcohol consumption on deeply insightful wit.


Insightful, as you say.





emma42 said:


> My problem is with the general attitude towards booze and excessive boozing in this country.





don maico said:


> If anything the fact that drinking hours have been increased greatly means that people dont feel under so much pressure to drink and enjoy themselves in a relatively few number of hours.


This is still "binge-drinking", isn't it? Despite the laws having been relaxed? There's less pressure, but do you think it has made a difference, or is binging more/too "ingrained"?





don maico said:


> Interesting to note that France are near the top of that table- outstripping the UK.


I was surprised that Switzerland outstrips the UK, too, based on the statistics. People here must be slow and consistent drinkers, rather than bingers.


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## mirx

gaer said:


> That charts shown are a start, perhaps, for comparing Italy and the UK, if they are (for reasons you have mentioned) accurate.
> 
> I asked because I found it rather strange that the average Italian would be astonished by the amount of alcohol consumed by those from countries such as England.
> 
> Gaer


 

I don't think so Gaer, Italians, French, Spanish and Portuguese all them drink a  lot of wine. It's not about how much you drink but how you drink it.

An italian Family may consume a bottle of wine with their dinner, sip by sip altogether with the meals. Whereas in England or Ireland that same bottle of wine is drunk at a pub or infront of the TV, or chatting up with the friends.

The effects of that bottle of wine will significantly differ in both cases.


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## don maico

GEmatt said:


> Insightful, as you say.This is still "binge-drinking", isn't it? Despite the laws having been relaxed? There's less pressure, but do you think it has made a difference, or is binging more/too "ingrained"?I was surprised that Switzerland outstrips the UK, too, based on the statistics. People here must be slow and consistent drinkers, rather than bingers.


I think there will always be people inclined to binge drinking and the most worrying trend is amongst some young women. Whereas at one time they might of sipped small glasses of wine or some mixture or other, now they swallow pints of beer and get drunk in the process.I think it will take time before people as a whole get used to spreading their consumption over a day but I am afraid until the drink culture changes the bingers will be with us.


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## Lavinia.dNP

. said:


> From my understanding there have been more people saying that excessive consumption of alcohol is not a problem in British culture or their own culture in general than the reverse.
> There is some excessive alcohol consumption in every culture, even Italian culture must have some excessive drinkers.
> 
> You say that Italians do not need to have alcohol to enjoy themselves in public.
> Are there very many villages or towns in Italy that do not have numerous places at which the general public may purchase and drink alcohol in a public venue?
> 
> .,,


 
Of course, you can buy alcohol anywhere in Italy, and there are many pubs and bars everywhere.
But what I'm talking about is excessive drinking, I'm not mentioning at all a total ban on alcohol.


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## Paulfromitaly

gaer said:


> I asked because I found it rather strange that the average Italian would be astonished by the amount of alcohol consumed by those from countries such as England.
> 
> Gaer



I'm an average Italian, I enjoy drinking beer and good wine (sometimes too much..) and I'm off to the UK quite often.
What strikes me more when I'm over there is:
The amount of booze teenagers can drink (especially girls) if compared to the Italian teenagers;
Parents who don't mind when their young sons or daughters get home absolutely pissed (I remember having seen parents who took the piss out of their guys because they couldn't take too much booze..so funny  );  
People who seem to believe that getting drunk is *the* way to have fun.
Another thing I've hardly seen in Italy is people drinking to get drunk at home, whereas it seems to be common in UK (and if you really want to get pissed it's also cleverer and cheaper than doing it in pubs and clubs).


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## Lavinia.dNP

CrazyArcher said:


> Lavinia: well, I probably have a personality problem, but that's what I've got. I'm consumed by the routine, and have little social life nowadays, I must admit. I can't act stupid and tell dirty jokes in my usual environment, so it makes me a dull person over time. When I _do_ meet my friends, once in a month maybe, it takes time to shake off the weariness... Without beer a meeting would be empty. If we won't be occupied by drinking, what would we do?


 
Do you mean that you have nothing to say with your friends? how sad!

I could talk for hours with my friends and have just a beer or two.

I work in the offices of a bank, and there's no place for jokes at all in there, but this doesn't prevent me from being myself as soon as I'm out of the office.

I'm not going out very often either, because in Paris pubs and restaurants are too crowded ans smoky, and moreover, I cannot conceive going out with an eye constantly on the watch in order to catch the last subway train. (but this has nothing to do with the subject)


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