# Why is [c] produced with a j-effect if it's not palatalized?



## Jonlitaliano

I can understand palatalized sounds have it, the anterodorso is positioned as it is for [j]. However, in [c] our tongue is far too raised in our mouth, wich should abolish any effect palatalization might give.


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## berndf

[c] *is* a palatal consonant. Maybe you are thinking of [k̟], which is also sometimes transcribed [c]. This sound indeed does not sound yodated.


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## Jonlitaliano

berndf said:


> [c] *is* a palatal consonant. Maybe you are thinking of [k̟], which is also sometimes transcribed [c]. This sound indeed does not sound yodated.



Can you tell why the true [c] has an j-effect? The reasons I gave for it not to have were good to me.


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## iezik

Jonlitaliano said:


> Can you tell why the true [c] has an j-effect? The reasons I gave for it not to have were good to me.



Can you write few words with a *true [c]*? I'm not sure which sound and words you talk about.


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## Jonlitaliano

iezik said:


> Can you write few words with a *true [c]*? I'm not sure which sound and words you talk about.



I'm not talking about any word in particular, but rather about the phone [c] itself. You can hear the version I talk about at Interactive IPA Chart


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## entangledbank

As you do mean the true sound [c], the reason is that [c] and [j] _are_ made in the same position. As [c] is a stop, the tongue has to travel further to make contact with the palate, but before and after this moment of contact it's in the [j] position - the same position, but open enough to let air flow smoothly. That colours the vowel or airstream as a [j], so [c] also has this colouring around it.


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## Olaszinhok

Can you find that sound in Hungarian ku*ty*a (dog), *Ty*ùk (hen), for instance? Do you mean this palatalised consonant? Its phonetic symbol is *c.* 
I really cannot understand what sound you are referring to?


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## berndf

Jonlitaliano said:


> The reasons I gave for it not to have were good to me.


If, starting from a [j], you raise the tongue further you arrive at [ʝ] and if you devoice [ʝ] you arrive at [ç] and that is the "j-effect" you hear in [c].


entangledbank said:


> That colours the vowel or airstream as a [j], so [c] also has this colouring around it.


Indeed. You could maybe approximate the sound as [t͜ç].


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## Jonlitaliano

berndf said:


> Indeed. You could maybe approximate the sound as [t͜ç].



Why [t͜ç]?


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## Jonlitaliano

entangledbank said:


> As you do mean the true sound [c], the reason is that [c] and [j] _are_ made in the same position. As [c] is a stop, the tongue has to travel further to make contact with the palate, but before and after this moment of contact it's in the [j] position - the same position, but open enough to let air flow smoothly. That colours the vowel or airstream as a [j], so [c] also has this colouring around it.



It makes sense. Can I make [c] without this [j] colouring?


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## berndf

Jonlitaliano said:


> Why [t͜ç]?


As I said:


berndf said:


> If, starting from a [j], you raise the tongue further you arrive at [ʝ] and if you devoice [ʝ] you arrive at [ç] and that is the "j-effect" you hear in [c].


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## Jonlitaliano

berndf said:


> As I said:



It's true, it'd be relatively easy to make a _ become a [ç], though I think is not advisable to say we can approximate [c] as [tç]. The sounds are too different._


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## berndf

Jonlitaliano said:


> The sounds are too different.


Not in my ears. I hear every palatal stop somehow t-ish. And judging from how the Hungarians spell [c], I am not the only one.

tyúk pronunciation: How to pronounce tyúk in Hungarian


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## merquiades

This sounds to my ears like [kj] pronounced very quickly.


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## berndf

I have conducted an entirely unscientific experiment and asked two colleagues sitting next to me in the office. One is a native Hungarian speaker and the other a native German speaker with no knowledge of Hungarian. I pronounced _tyúk_ and verified with the Hungarian native speaker that my pronunciation was correct. Then I asked the native German speaker what sound he heard in the beginning of the word. And he said "k". So there are others who hear is the same way as you do.


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## TheCrociato91

merquiades said:


> This sounds to my ears like [kj] pronounced very quickly.



Same. Apparently, [c] is indeed an allophone of /k/ in some varieties within languages such as English, Italian and Spanish, where it occurs before front vowels.

Thus, although I was unacquainted with this sound, I might've actually been using it all along in both my native language and my second and third languages.


Edit to add more information (excerpted from Voiceless palatal stop - Wikipedia)

- Post-palatal in Standard Italian, in Spanish and also in Portuguese; [k̟]; allophone of /k/ before /i, e, ɛ, j/.
- Varies between post-palatal and palatal in English; [c], as in [cʰiːn] 'keen'; allophone of /k/ before front vowels and /j/.


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## Olaszinhok

berndf said:


> _tyúk_


Oddly enough, in one of my Hungarian textbooks, they suggest pronuncing* ty* as in _hi*t y*ou_. 



TheCrociato91 said:


> c] is indeed an allophone of /k/ in some varieties within languages such as English, Italian and Spanish, where it occurs before front vowels.



Could you please tell me which words you are referring to? Thanks.


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## TheCrociato91

Olaszinhok said:


> Could you please tell me what words are you referring to? Thanks.



Sorry, I should've quoted them too when I edited my post.

The article I cited includes:

chi [k̟i] (Italian)
qui [k̟i]   (Portuguese)
kilo [ˈk̟ilo̞] (Spanish)

All of these are voiceless post-palatal stops, which (as the article I cited mentions) "can be transcribed as ⟨c̠⟩ (retracted ⟨c⟩) or ⟨k̟⟩ (advanced ⟨k⟩)".


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## berndf

Olaszinhok said:


> Oddly enough, in one of my Hungarian textbooks, they suggest pronuncing* ty* as in _hi*t y*ou_.


Yes. That is how I hear it.


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## Olaszinhok

TheCrociato91 said:


> chi [k̟i] (Italian)
> qui [k̟i] (Portuguese)
> kilo [ˈk̟ilo̞] (Spanish)



Thank you. To be honest, they sound a bit different to me, what  I mean is that I can't hear any k sound in Hungarian *ty.*


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## Olaszinhok

berndf said:


> Yes. That is how I hear it.



So do I, but I hear no k sound in it.


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## berndf

Olaszinhok said:


> So do I, but I hear no k sound in it.


Me neither. As I said, [c] rounds to me like [t͜ç].


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## TheCrociato91

Olaszinhok said:


> Thank you. Honestly, they sound a bit different to me, what I mean is that I can't hear any k sound in Hungarian *ty.*



Mind you, I'm not familiar with Hungarian by any means. Could that be the case because the Hungarian [c] is actually palatal whilst the Italian and Spanish allophones are post-palatal [c̠] or [k̟].

I've listened to the audio file provided by Wikipedia (File:Voiceless palatal plosive.ogg - Wikipedia), and, like I said, to me [c] sounds _a bit_ like [kj], while the post-palatal stop _definitely _sounds like [kj]. I do also tend to agree with berndf that [c] seems to have an affricate component to it, as well (since it includes a friction-like sound which is typical of fricatives).


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## berndf

TheCrociato91 said:


> [c̠] or [k̟]


For me those are _very_ different sounds. I would never transcribe [k̟] as [c].


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## TheCrociato91

berndf said:


> For me those are _very_ different sounds. I would never transcribe [k̟] as [c].



Do you mean that [c̠] and [k̟] are two different sounds one to the other? Or that [c] is very different from [c̠] / [k̟]?

In the latter case, [c] is indeed different in that it is articulated more up front in the mouth (palatal stop), whereas [c̠] or [k̟] is articulated farther back (post-palatal stop). Now, to me they sound _slightly _different; but my ear might not be trained to distinguish the two sounds since I'm not really familiar with [c]. That said, I'm not sure how they could sound _very_ different, either, since their place of articulation is rather close (hard palate vs. area in-between hard and soft palate).


Edited to fix typos.


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## berndf

TheCrociato91 said:


> Or that [c] is very different from [c̠] / [k̟]?


That is what I meant. Sorry.


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