# Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Punjabi: last but not least



## marrish

In a recent conversation with an expert of Urdu, I hesitated to use the English expression what I normally try to avoid, but hadn't found an equivalent in Urdu. 

It is an English idiom and we know that with idioms there are not always ready made solutions between the languages, but in case of this one, I dare to think that it can function on its own if coined.

Could we please try to coin an expression which could be used instead of the English phrase or perhaps there is some existing method to convey this idea, as stipulated in the title?

As this thread is a multilingual one, I'd kindly request that transliterations be written so that the script barrier disappears and everyone can follow the posts.


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## UrduMedium

Great question, marrish saahab!

How about, ... _axiir sahii par Haqiir nahiiN _(Urdu)


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Great question, marrish saahab!
> 
> How about, ... _axiir sahii par Haqiir nahiiN _(Urdu)


muHtaramii, great answer indeed! Thank you for this!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> muHtaramii, great answer indeed! Thank you for this!



I like it too, marrish SaaHib. It is precise, to the point and even poetic! I just feel that "Haqiir"  may not quite convey the sense of..

Last (matter) but not least (important)

I thought of..

pasiin magar nah kam-tariin

axir-an nah aaxir-an (In Arabic , it is axiir-an laisa aaxir-an)


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## Alfaaz

In addition to the great rhyming answer by UM SaaHib, these also seem to be used by speakers and on TV:

آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) (ہر گز/ کسی بھی لحاظ سے) خفیف / حقیر / قلیل / اصغر / صغیر / ادنٰی / کم (تر / ترین) نہیں 
aakhiri (lekin/magar/par) (har giz/kisi bhi liHaaz se) xafeef/Haqeer/qaleel/asghar/sagheer/adnaa/kam (tar/tareen) naheeN

آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) برابر/ یکساں توجہ (کے/ کی) حامل 
aakhiri (lekin/magar/par) baraabar/yaksaaN tawajjoh (ke/ki) Haamil
Last, but deserving of equal attention

آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) (معمولی/غیر اہم) نہیں
aakhiri (lekin / magar / par) (ma'amuli/ghair aham) naheeN
Last, but not trivial/ordinary/unimportant


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## Qureshpor

axiirlii par k_haTT zaruurii na'iiN

pichhaRlii par k_haTT zaruurii na'iiN

(Punjabi)


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> In addition to the great rhyming answer by UM SaaHib, these also seem to be used by speakers and on TV:
> 
> آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) (ہر گز/ کسی بھی لحاظ سے) خفیف / حقیر / قلیل / اصغر / صغیر / ادنٰی / کم (تر / ترین) نہیں
> aakhiri (lekin/magar/par) (har giz/kisi bhi liHaaz se) xafeef/Haqeer/qaleel/asghar/sagheer/adnaa/kam (tar/tareen) naheeN
> 
> آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) برابر/ یکساں توجہ (کے/ کی) حامل
> aakhiri (lekin/magar/par) baraabar/yaksaaN tawajjoh (ke/ki) Haamil
> Last, but deserving of equal attention
> 
> آخری (لیکن / مگر/ پر) (معمولی/غیر اہم) نہیں
> aakhiri (lekin / magar / par) (ma'amuli/ghair aham) naheeN
> Last, but not trivial/ordinary/unimportant


Wow it is a whole array of possibilities! Thank you for spending your time on this extensive answer!

What is your choice?


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## Alfaaz

marrish said:
			
		

> What is your choice?


It would probably depend on context. 
Ma'amuli/ghair aham could sound awkward and perhaps rude for a person, but would be good for a point/topic_ "aakhiri nuqtah, lekin har giz ghair aham naheeN"_ 
The first and second sound good for people : _aakhiri contestant, lekin baraabar tawajjoh ke/ki Haamil ; aakhiri contestant, lekin apne hunar meiN kam (tar/tareen) naheeN_


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## greatbear

I wouldn't translate it to Hindi, as I don't see any need to - we convey our ideas differently using a different dynamics of language. "Last but not least" is also an overused expression in English IMO.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> I like it too, marrish SaaHib. It is precise, to the point and even poetic! I just feel that "Haqiir"  may not quite convey the sense of..
> 
> Last (matter) but not least (important)
> 
> I thought of..
> 
> pasiin magar nah kam-tariin



QP saahab, this one's a winner. I love it! I suggest employing the two Ghunnas instead, for even better impact: *pasiiN, magar nah kam-tariiN ...*


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> I wouldn't translate it to Hindi, as I don't see any need to - we convey our ideas differently using a different dynamics of language. "Last but not least" is also an overused expression in English IMO.



That's fair enough. How would you convey the idea behind ''last but not least'', employing this ''different dynamics'', for Hindi?


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> QP saahab, this one's a winner. I love it! I suggest employing the two Ghunnas instead, for even better impact: *pasiiN, magar nah kam-tariiN ...*


Thank you. Yes, with nuun-i-Ghunnah it would sound nicer. But for this to pass its final test, I'll  need more than just one vote!!


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> That's fair enough. How would you convey the idea behind ''last but not least'', employing this ''different dynamics'', for Hindi?



That will depend on context and conversation, for it will be translated in different ways, not with one readymade formula. If you can produce an example conversation, I can supply you the Hindi bit.


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## JaiHind

Instantly अंततः comes to my mind in Hindi. But it means "in the end" and not exactly "last but not the least". I will think again and reply/contribute if I get something more appropriate...


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## greatbear

Good answer, JH, because अंततः often means "last but not least".


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> That will depend on context and conversation, for it will be translated in different ways, not with one readymade formula. If you can produce an example conversation, I can supply you the Hindi bit.


You're right, the context is very important. The conversation was something along these lines:

_Person K_: Even if this isn't a part of one's religious and cultural heritage, humanity requires that we deal with our fellow human beings with sincerity, honesty, kindness and *last but not least*, utmost courtesy.
_Person Kh_: Very wise words, and you are right.

I'm looking forward to your contribution so that we can have this sentence in Hindi.


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## marrish

JaiHind said:


> Instantly अंततः comes to my mind in Hindi. But it means "in the end" and not exactly "last but not the least". I will think again and reply/contribute if I get something more appropriate...


Very good contribution, JH jii.


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## greatbear

I would translate "last but not least" as "khaas kar ke" or "sabse adhik" in your sentence, marrish. The English idiom is after all a more roundabout way of saying "and especially": note that French do use simply "enfin" or "enfin et surtout" ("surtout" means "above all, especially") where an English user would say "last but not least". The French dynamics are close to the Hindi one, yet again.


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## eskandar

greatbear said:


> The English idiom is after all a more roundabout way of saying "and especially"


I wouldn't say it means "and especially" because to me that implies that the final thing is of _greater _importance than those mentioned before it, whereas the idiom "last and not least" simply implies that the final thing is _equally_ important to the others.


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## greatbear

eskandar said:


> I wouldn't say it means "and especially" because to me that implies that the final thing is of _greater _importance than those mentioned before it, whereas the idiom "last and not least" simply implies that the final thing is _equally_ important to the others.



You are right about the literal meaning of the English idiom; however, as Hindi speakers, we don't talk like that (nor as French speakers; read http://french.stackexchange.com/que...uivalent-of-the-expression-last-but-not-least ). As I said, the dynamics of our language is different. In Hindi, we rather use "enfin et surtout".


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## eskandar

I see. I didn't know this idiom was used differently in Indian English than in US English; thanks for explaining!


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## greatbear

eskandar said:


> I see. I didn't know this idiom was used differently in Indian English than in US English; thanks for explaining!



The idiom isn't being used differently in Indian English; what I mean is that this idiom exists only in English, not necessarily in other cultures and mind-sets.


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## eskandar

Oh, I misunderstood your previous post in that case; you're saying there is no exact equivalent to the English idiom in Hindi. Got it.


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## greatbear

What I am saying is that in marrish's example, the French _enfin et surtout_ works very well, which literally means "and above all" (French also doesn't have an exact equivalent to the English idiom, as both Hindi and French speakers have a more direct way of addressing things): the English idiom is a much more polite one, giving no apparent importance to any of the elements (even though there is certainly a subtle emphasis on the last element in many cases, as in marrish's sentence).


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> I wouldn't say it means "and especially" because to me that implies that the final thing is of _greater _importance than those mentioned before it, whereas the idiom "last and not least" simply implies that the final thing is _equally_ important to the others.



This is exactly the meaning of "last but not least". The writer/speaker is listing a number of points and his point of view to the recipient is that just because he has mentioned a point right at the end of his argument, that point should not be taken to mean that it is of least importance. All points are of equal importance.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> This is exactly the meaning of "last but not least". The writer/speaker is listing a number of points and his point of view to the recipient is that just because he has mentioned a point right at the end of his argument, that point should not be taken to mean that it is of least importance. All points are of equal importance.



Nobody's disputing that!


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## JaiHind

Thanks a lot greatbear and marrish, for appreciating what I suggested अंततः.

I also agree with greatbear on what he explains about how different languages have different ways of saying things. We should appreciate the way he explains cross-cultural stuff. I feel happy to read such sensible explanations.


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## Qureshpor

JaiHind said:


> Thanks a lot greatbear and marrish, for appreciating what I suggested अंततः.
> 
> I also agree with greatbear on what he explains about how different languages have different ways of saying things. We should appreciate the way he explains cross-cultural stuff. I feel happy to read such sensible explanations.



Perhaps you could have a go at translating marrish SaaHib's sentence into Hindi and see if अंततः fits the sense. I don't believe it does. I am sure someone amongst the Hindi speakers should be able to come with something resembling the meaning behind "last but not least".


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Perhaps you could have a go at translating marrish SaaHib's sentence into Hindi and see if अंततः fits the sense. I don't believe it does. I am sure someone amongst the Hindi speakers should be able to come with something resembling the meaning behind "last but not least".


I must say that I like अंततः as a hint towards a solution. Of course the translation of the idiom doesn't have to be necessarily a reflection of parts of speech in EN.

My taking: _aur antim sahii par charam nahiiN_ और अंतिम सही पर चरम नहीं.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> I am sure someone amongst the Hindi speakers should be able to come with something resembling the meaning behind "last but not least".



I think I have already come up with something very suitable. You are free to disagree, but you have no need to make it sound some agreed-upon, universal truth.


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## greatbear

Marrish, I find your coinage very poetic - great effort! - but finally to me it is only a calque of the English idiom.


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## greatbear

Here's another sentence from Hindi where an English "last but not least" can be easily fitted, and "यही नहीं"yet does the job in Hindi:
कुछ लोग व्यस्त रहते हैं अपने ढोल चरमराने में, नगाड़े पीटने में, और *यही नहीं*, अपनी तुनतुनि बजाने में भी!


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## JaiHind

marrish said:


> और अंतिम सही पर चरम नहीं.



This is good one...

If I try more on this... May be "... और अंत में मै यह कहना चाहूँगा, जो कम महत्वपूर्ण नहीं है, कि ... ...


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## JaiHind

Actually I would like to go with greatbear where he said once that we all have different ways of speaking and in Hindi we may not be specifically saying this phrase at all. May be I don't remember anyone saying "last but not the least" in literal sense in Hindi. 

Saying this would count as "self promotion", or self assertion. "not the least" - I don't see it natural phrase in Hindi...


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## marrish

In my opening post I indicated that idioms normally don't function well in other languages so I can but agree with the part about ''dynamics'', but it shouldn't prevent us from creative activities! Especially when one sees so many calqués from English in Urdu and Hindi.


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## JaiHind

True... I would love to translate and don't understand members when they say, "Can you show some literary usage for what you said"? Language is what we speak and we are shaping our languages to develop them daily! Why should we put a frame saying this is what is your language and you can't invent anything beyond these many pages?


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## Qureshpor

I don't think anyone is saying there is n't any idiomatic way of expressing "last but not least" in Urdu or Hindi or Punjabi. But until someone comes up with that, there is no harm in attempting to coin something as a "creative process" if nothing else. If one language speakers can't come up with anything suitable, that's fine. It's no big deal.


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## marrish

JH jii, I take your point very well and it is true that we develop the language. But the ''Standard'' or literary standard is a mirror in which we can see our endeavours and where we always come back to. From there we get our inspiration. Checking with people who have been accepted as virtuosi of the language - the poets and writers - can only enrich us and doesn't have to limit us.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> axiirlii par k_haTT zaruurii na'iiN
> 
> pichhaRlii par k_haTT zaruurii na'iiN
> 
> (Punjabi)



I forgot to thank you for Punjabi. As for Urdu, you will have to wait for my vote!


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## JaiHind

True... I also agree with what you say above marrish...


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> marrish said:
> 
> 
> 
> My taking: _aur antim sahii par charam nahiiN_ और अंतिम सही पर चरम नहीं.
> 
> 
> 
> Marrish, I find your coinage very poetic - great effort! - but finally to me it is only a calque of the English idiom.
Click to expand...

Thank you.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Thank you.



By the way, marrish, "charam" as in "charam seemaa" means "the very last", so you are coining the new idiom as "last but not last"?


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> By the way, marrish, "charam" as in "charam seemaa" means "the very last", so you are coining the new idiom as "last but not last"?


What about "tuchchh" instead?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> What about "tuchchh" instead?



Yes, literally meaning "trivial", might work in your poetic coinage. Also "nyoontam", which literally means "minimum".


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## JaiHind

चरम means "at the threshold" or at the peak, or at the limits...


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## nineth

I find greatbear's suggestion of (aur) yahii nahiiN to be the most suitable in most contexts "last but not least" is used, except that it might be better to add a keval/sirf to stress its importance, i.e.,  

aur sirf yahii nahiiN

antatah gives the idea of "last" but not of "not least" and a little too formal. Other possible expressions could be:

aur utna/utnii hee mahatvapoorNa / mukhya
aur iskey/inkey alaava utna / utnii hee mahatvapoorNa
aur antatah (aakhir maiN) utna / utnii hee mahatvapoorNa
aur usee/isee tarah
aur samaan roop  say

One can mix and match these as well.


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## marrish

^Thank you for this opinion and many examples.


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