# Urdu/Hindi: Female equivalent of "maa'ii kaa laal".



## Qureshpor

When a man challenges another man, especially in the film world, one often hears " ko'ii hai maa'ii kaa laal jo....". If a woman was in that kind of mood, how would she address other women to seek out a female counterpart?


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## Faylasoof

Purely instinctively I would have said: _laalan_ ! But then _laalan_ has many meaning and not the one we are looking for:

S لالن लालन _lālan_, adj. Caressing, fondling, indulging, spoiling; coaxing, wheedling;—s.m. The act of caressing, fondling, petting, &c. &c.;—s.f. A mistress, sweetheart:—_lālan-pālan_, s.m. Caressing and cherishing.

The point is that such challenges (ko'ii hai maa'ii kaa laal jo....) are issued by those members of the human species who have a Y  chromosome and consequently high levels of testosterone. Since women have neither we really don’t have a feminine of  ‘laal’ - at least not in this sense that I can think of at present.


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## Qureshpor

From my line of work, even the absence of the Y chromosome does not stop many a female from portraying those characteristics which one would normally expect a possessor of a Y chromosome to have! Besides, this is an exercise in language. Just imagine a female equivalent of Bruce Lee coming up with the challenge!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> From my line of work, even the absence of the Y chromosome does not stop many a female from portraying those characteristics which one would normally expect a possessor of a Y chromosome to have! Besides, this is an exercise in language. Just imagine a female equivalent of Bruce Lee coming up with the challenge!


 Of course I know what you mean! But as this kind of language goes it has until recently been very much a male domain! A female Bruce Lee challenging a male would of course use the same expression! But if she were to challenge another female ... now that is a challenge! I mean to look for an equivalent expression. I can't recall any film where such a scene took place and such an expression was uttered by one woman to another!  

Needless to say there are gender neutral expressions which members of either sex can use, viz. _ko'ii hai jo meraa muqaabalah kare!_ / _ko'ii hai jo mere muqaabale ko nilkle!_ Just like the old Arabic expression: _hal min mubaariz_!


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> When a man challenges another man, especially in the film world, one often hears " ko'ii hai maa'ii kaa laal jo....". If a woman was in that kind of mood, how would she address other women to seek out a female counterpart?



Can you please list a movie this is heard in. Thanks.


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## souminwé

Can we say _maa'i ki laalini_? Or _laaliya_ (sounds a bit strange...)


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## tonyspeed

Also, I read an article about them naming a show this on Disney India and it seems there was controversy because some seemed to think it was a vulgar term.
Javed Jafery then specifically states it is a Bhojpuri phrase: http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...v/29782106_1_dance-show-reality-boogie-woogie


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## lcfatima

A laal isn't like a laaDla? I am having to guess at the meaning here from all this testosterone talk. Can someone clarify the meaning of maa'i ka laal?


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## BP.

Icfatima here's the thread for you!


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## tonyspeed

lcfatima said:


> A laal isn't like a laaDla? I am having to guess at the meaning here from all this testosterone talk. Can someone clarify the meaning of maa'i ka laal?



H مائي माई _māʼī_, or माइ _māʼi_, or माए _māʼe_ [Prk.  माइआ; S. मातृका], s.f. Mother, &c. (=_mā_, q.v.);—a woman's breast.

H لال लाल _lāl_ [Pers. also _lāl_; prob. S. लाल, fr. caus. of  rt. लल्; cf. _lāṛ_ and _lāṛlā_], adj. Beloved, darling, dear, precious;—dumb;—s.m. An infant boy, a son; a darling, a pet;—a proper name (among Hindūs):—_lāl-bujhakkar_, s.m. An ignorant (or a stupid) fellow who pretends to knowledge or acuteness, an ignoramus, a jackanapes, wiseacre:—_lāl-beg_, or _lāl-gurū_, s.m. The priest of the sweeper caste:—_lāl-begiyā_, s.m. A follower of Lāl-Beg:—_lāloṅ-kā lāl_, adj. & s.m. Most dear; very dear;—the dearest of dear ones.

Therefore maaii kaa laal is mother's son or mother's beloved.


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## lcfatima

I took it to mean more like a mama's boy, but thought based on the thread contents that it had some other meaning. Yes, I remember the 'laal' thread. Thanks.

Hmmm. 





> The priest of the sweeper caste:—_lāl-begiyā, s.m. A follower of Lāl-Beg_



That's really interesting...I have heard people use laal-baig to refer to cockroaches (not sure if this is slang). I had no idea that it was a caste reference. Is this the same word. I have also heard roach called laal-pabakkar (or something like that, though not bujhakkar). I always thought this laal was a reference to the reddish-brown coloring. But it must be this 'laal' here provided in the dictionary entry.


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## Qureshpor

Those acquainted with Sahir's Urdu work "talxiyaaN" would be aware of the following lines from his nazm "chakle" (Brothels)

madad chaahtii hai yih Havvaa kii beTii
Yashodhaa kii ham-jins Raadhaa kii beTii
payamabar kii ummat, Zulaixaa kii beTii

sanaa-xvaan-i-taqdiis-i-mashriq kahaaN haiN

Crying out for support is this Eve's daughter
Who is Yashodhaa's sister, Raadhaa's daughter
One of the Prophet's nation, Zulaixaa's daughter

Where are those who praise the sanctity of the East?

After this "prologue", how does "Havvaa kii beTii" sound as an equivalent of "maa'ii kaa laal"?


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## marrish

So damn good translation is it! 

Yes, it sounds very well.


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## Faylasoof

souminwé said:


> Can we say _maa'i ki laalini_? Or _laaliya_ (sounds a bit strange...)


 I had these in mind, esp. the first, but I don't think we use them in Urdu - well at least not our Urdu! Perhaps other dialects, like Awadhi/ Bhojpuri.


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## tonyspeed

It has been suggested by Neha Ladha on Hindi-Urdu Flasgship's Hindi Spken Thesaurus that someone could use the idiom:

 "Aap kii HIMMAT?!" to challenge someone. Could this be an equivalent for women?


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> It has been suggested by Neha Ladha on Hindi-Urdu Flasgship's Hindi Spken Thesaurus that someone could use the idiom:
> 
> "Aap kii HIMMAT?!" to challenge someone. Could this be an equivalent for women?


 In a word, no! "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii himmat?!_" can be said by either a male or a female to members of their own or opposite sex. It is totally gender neutral! In idiomatic English it'll be "how dare you!". An equivalent of this is "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii majaal?!_"


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## tonyspeed

Faylasoof said:


> In a word, no! "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii himmat?!_" can be said by either a male or a female to members of their own or opposite sex. It is totally gender neutral! In idiomatic English it'll be "how dare you!". An equivalent of this is "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii majaal?!_"



hmm.  I didn't know it had to be female-only. I'm afraid we will never find an equivalent.

Do you mean "how dare you?" or "i dare you!" ? She made it seem as if it were "I dare you".


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## Faylasoof

tonyspeed said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> In a word, no! "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii himmat?!_"  can be said by either a male or a female to members of their own or  opposite sex. It is totally gender neutral! In idiomatic English it'll  be "how dare you!". An equivalent of this is "_aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii majaal?!_"
> 
> 
> 
> hmm.  I didn't know it had to be female-only. I'm afraid we will never find an equivalent.
> 
> _*Do you mean "how dare you?" or "i dare you!"*_ ? She made it seem as if it were "I dare you".
Click to expand...

 I mean this: _*"how dare you?" *_for the above expressions with _himmat_ and _majaal_.

... and yes we are looking for a female equivalent of _maa'ii kaa laal _!


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> hmm.  I didn't know it had to be female-only. I'm afraid we will never find an equivalent.




Well, perhaps we will!

How does "maaN kii jaa'ii" or "maa'ii kii jaa'ii" sound?


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Well, perhaps we will!
> 
> How does "maaN kii jaa'ii" or "maa'ii kii jaa'ii" sound?


 QP SaaHib, as we use it and as many Urdu lexicons say as well, "_maaN kii  jaa'ii_" literally means "_maaN kii beTii_", _jaa'ii_ being just the  feminine of "_jaayaa_", both were mentioned here (posts # 5 & 6). If you are asking for a feminine of "laal". then I'm  not sure if we have one.


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## Alfaaz

> If you are asking for a feminine of "laal". then I'm not sure if we have one.


Could laali be used? It seems to be used in (probably, not sure) Sindhi, along with laala....or maybe that means brother...?


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## marrish

Let me chime in with my perception which is new but is not necessarily corrct, though.

I think we don't need any female equivalent here.

_ko'ii maa'ii kaa la3l_ - a ruby stone (very big mostly) carressed and looked after by mothers - and by eponymy, applied to sons? (meaning that it is well cherished, good upbrought and precious). I may be at least indulging into folk etymology, but I think it is right...


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Let me chime in with my perception which is new but is not necessarily corrct, though.
> 
> _*I think we don't need any female equivalent here*_.
> 
> _ko'ii maa'ii kaa la3l_ - a ruby stone (very big mostly) carressed and looked after by mothers - and by eponymy, applied to sons? (meaning that it is well cherished, good upbrought and precious). I may be at least indulging into folk etymology, but I think it is right...


  Believe it or not marrish and QP SaaHibaan, there is a feminine of *لال laal* ! It is *لالڑی laalRii* !!

So now we can finish the exercise: “ *ko’ii hai maa’ii kii laalRii* _*jo*_ ...!”


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> Believe it or not marrish and QP SaaHibaan, there is a feminine of *لال laal* ! It is *لالڑی laalRii* !!
> So now we can finish the exercise: “ *ko’ii hai maa’ii kii laalRii* _*jo*_ ...!”


Faylasoof SaaHib, your statement is very plausible, but what if it is لعل?


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, your statement is very plausible, but what if it is لعل?


 The expression as QP SaaHib gave is always with _*laal*_. Same meaning as _*laaDlaa*_, feminine _*laaDlii*_. 

While لعل is Arabic, I'm not sure if takes  لعلة  / لعله  as a feminine form and whether it would even fit in this usage. I guess not.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> The expression as QP SaaHib gave is always with _*laal*_. Same meaning as _*laaDlaa*_, feminine _*laaDlii*_.
> 
> While لعل is Arabic, I'm not sure if takes  لعلة  / لعله  as a feminine form and whether it would even fit in this usage. I guess not.



Faylasoof SaaHib.When marrish SaaHib used "maa'ii kaa la3l" in Roman and you replied by using "laal" in Urdu script, I got the strange feeling that marrish SaaHib is possibly implying that the word "laal" is or should be "la3l". I know we have discussed this in a seperate thread but looking at the definions for "laal" in Platts, I have got a bit confused. I think Platts is (at least) implying that "laal" (red) is the "bigRii shakl" of "la3l" (ruby). I still think that it is Jawahar La3l Nahru but we shall not go into this yet again.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib.When marrish SaaHib used "maa'ii kaa la3l" in Roman and you replied by using "laal" in Urdu script, I got the strange feeling that marrish SaaHib is possibly implying that the word "laal" is or should be "la3l". I know we have discussed this in a seperate thread but looking at the definions for "laal" in Platts, I have got a bit confused. I think Platts is (at least) implying that "laal" (red) is the "bigRii shakl" of "la3l" (ruby). I still think that it is Jawahar La3l Nahru but we shall not go into this yet again.


 Actually, QP SaaHIb, _*laal *_is listed in standard Urdu dictionaries for both ruby (_*la3l*_) but also for a ‘favourite son’ and anyone who says *maa’ii* would also be expected to say the Indic *laal* and not the Arabic *la3l*.

The feminine of *laal *is listed in several Urdu lexicons as *laalRii.* Unlike *laaDlaa* / *laaDlii, *it seems to alter internally by adding ‘*R*’ before ending in the usual change of –aa to –ii to give the feminine.


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## marrish

Very valid, that what has been said before, but I feel in this expression the two are convergent. (might be wrong, not sure, maybe yes or maybe not, yes or not....)


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## jakubisek

Interesting, why Yashodaa's as well as Radha's daughter?!   (For those not acquainted with Hindu myths, Yashoda was Krishna's foster mother while Raadhaa was his secret lover!)


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## Qureshpor

jakubisek said:


> Interesting, why Yashodaa's as well as Radha's daughter?!   (For those not acquainted with Hindu myths, Yashoda was Krishna's foster mother while Raadhaa was his secret lover!)


The Urdu line is...

Yashodhaa kii *ham-jins*, Raadhaa kii beTii where ham-jins means "of the same sex".

So, more accurately this line should translate as.

A female like Yashodhaa, a daughter of Raadhaa


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Believe it or not marrish and QP SaaHibaan, there is a feminine of *لال laal* ! It is *لالڑی laalRii* !!
> 
> So now we can finish the exercise: “ *ko’ii hai maa’ii kii laalRii* _*jo*_ ...!”


I apologize for such a long delay in acknowledging your suggestion. I meant to come back to it but for some reason it slipped my mind to do so.

Yes, "laalRii" is an excellent suggestion and a perfect idiomatic equivalent for the challenge put forward from the female perspective. I have good mind to suggest that "maa'ii-laalRii" could be an innovation for a "challenge" in Alfaaz SaaHib's "challenge" thread. 

challenge = maa'ii-laalRii (to challenge..maa'ii-laalRii karnaa)

challenges = maa'ii-laalRiyaaN

challenging = maa'ii-laalRiyaa


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