# She had that cold, clammy look you see in doorways.



## helene james

Hello I don"t really get the following sentence. It's a joke of a kind, but I'm not sure what it means. Context. The narrator is talking about an old lady who is very scared to go to the dentist for some procedure. She got high on pot, and now she's having vodka to take away the stress. But she doesn't cope too well. They sit in a bar. "Her hands were shaking. She had that cold, clammy look you see in doorways." Elle avait les mains qui tremblaient.  So what is the reference to doorways here for, you think? Is it just a way of saying her face is totally expressionless? How does that sound to you?  Thank you for your help!


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## titiminet5122

Le regard humide.


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## helene james

Merci, mais je ne sais pas... Ce que je ne comprends pas c'est "like you see in doorways", surtout.


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## helene james

Any natives, maybe?


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## Hildy1

It's a striking expression, which is easier to feel than to explain. I would guess it means that some doorways open into entrances or halls that seem damp and unhealthy. Sorry, that doesn't help much with the translation.


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## helene james

Well yes, thank you, at least I'm more certain what it means. In french we have this expression aimable or joyeux comme une porte de prison, but though similar, it doesn't convey the same meaning really, plus from what I understand, here, it's not a set phrase...


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## Hildy1

No, it's not comme une porte de prison, which I believe concerns someone's attitude towards others. This person looks unwell. Maybe you could find another comparison that gets the idea across... though I have seen some dank courtyards in France that would give the right impression.


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## helene james

Yes, I understand this is not what it meant. Yes the image I get now, it's just I'm not sure how to translate it.. I don't think I can keep the exact image...


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## petit1

Perhaps the look of some devious characters who stay in doorways to try their luck on passers-by.

Or: "un regard de chien battu".


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## helene james

Ses mains tremblaient. Elle avait l'air aussi réchauffé qu'un pas de porte battu par la pluie... Mouais. Pas encore ça.


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## helene james

On aurait pu attraper froid rien qu'à la regarder? Or is it too far a stretch?


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## Carcassonnaise

What I immediately understood by this is homeless people, who live on or near doorways - the cold, clammy look of someone living on the margins, rather desperate and alienated.


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## zita beretta

and what about "être à la rue"? (which means "désorienté", "perdu", things like that, in a rather colloquial way...)
_Elle avait les mains qui tremblaient et l'air complètement à la rue
_on garde ainsi le même registre d'images...mais c'est très subjectif !


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## helene james

Thank you Carcassonnaise, how didn't we see that before? Yes, that makes perfect sense. And thank you zita beretta, la proposition est bonne, moins "tactile", que l'originale... I'll work with that...


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## Carcassonnaise

Oh, also, of course drug addicts are often slumped in doorways (at least in people's imaginations) and I think this is actually closer to what is meant.


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## helene james

I think "à la rue" goes quite well with the general style, quite colloquial, of the book, even though a little bit of the image is lost/// thank you


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## Carcassonnaise

I think zita's suggestion is a good one, and would certainly "do".  But to me, "she had that cold, clammy look you see in doorways" really conveys something more graphic, more seedy and desperate, a real physical state of degradation (like that experienced by a drug addict) and I think you've got to get the reference to homeless/marginalised people or addicts in a really faithful translation.  Sorry, I haven't made your task easier


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## helene james

Elle avait un regard vitreux de toxico en détresse?


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## helene james

Elle avait ce regard vitreux qu'on ne voit que dans les squats de camés?


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## Carcassonnaise

helene james said:


> Elle avait ce regard vitreux qu'on ne voit que dans les squats de camés?



Well, as a non-native speaker, this seems to me a very good suggestion.  Should one add the notion of "froid"?


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## helene james

Cold... A cold  and clammy look... I guess "vitreux" kind of conveys the idea of an emotionless stare... But I realize now, he's not even talking about the look in her eyes? More of her look generally? In which case my translation isn't really correct./


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## helene james

'Emotionless" in the sense of washed-away, lost.


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## Carcassonnaise

What we read is obviously to some degree subjective.  For me, what is conveyed by a cold, clammy look is very _physical_ - more than to do with emotions.  She is in a bad way after all this pot and vodka and she looks a bit like a homeless druggie.  But you've got artistic licence because it's an unusual phrase in English and I think the author is just creating an impression rather than describing a precise image.


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## helene james

Yes, I get it...Les yeux vitreux is definitely something I for one would associate to a homeless druggie - it's not really about emotions or no emotions, more about beind disconnected. What I think my translation lacks so far, is the oddity of the original, which suggests the comparison rather than unfold it and leaves a bit to the reader's imagination... or so it seems.


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## Carcassonnaise

Yes, you're right... is there some way of using an image or a word in French that suggests homelessness/drug addiction without actually spelling it out?


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## helene james

This is just what I'm looking for! Maybe sleep on it! Of something pops up I'll let you know. It's something that is always complicated especially with brithish English, I think, to convey the image without spelling it out...


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## helene james

Elle avait l'air hagard, décomposé de quelqu'un qui n'a pas dormi sur un lit depuis des lustres. 
Not there just yet.


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## Carcassonnaise

I don't know whether you can play with the French a bit?  Un regard sans domicile fixe?  But I never dare translate into French, just out of it, so I won't venture too far   Bonne chance!


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## helene james

Actually, it's not a bad idea. Maybe not just like that, but I'll look into it, thank you.


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## helene james

Just lke that, it would make for too much of a "poetic" phrase in french, or at least I have this impression. And the general feeling would be more that she looks totally lost - à la rue- but would not really bring to mind the graphic feeling of the cold, crammy, etc...


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## helene james

Maybe something like. Elle avait les mains qui tremblaient. Elle avait l'air complètement à la rue, et une rue venteuse, avec ça.


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## helene james

So I can both use the set phrase and kind of remind its essential meaning as the narrator/character might do when he's commenting what he sees, in order to convey the more "graphic" dimension. (Judging also by his general voice - the voice of the narrator is really that of a character, as in a kind of monologue, and he has a very peculiar way of seeing and describing or judging things and people


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## Carcassonnaise

Oh, this all proves how impossible true translation is   We just make approximate stabs in the dark... the thing is that cold and clammy really conveys a sense of squalour and seediness, presumably because she is a respectable old lady who has suddenly joined the ranks of the marginal, the bottom of the pile?  It's not really about the lostness of her look - I'm not sure where the idea of lostness came from - it's that she has the squalid, solipsistic look of an SDF or druggie...


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## helene james

Well "lost" can be used to convey what you call a solipsistic look, that's how it came about, I think. But yes, I can see how I've lost the idea of cold...Yes, I probably need to sleep on it. I'm sure there is a simpler way!


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## helene james

And what did you think of Hildy's first explanation: "I would guess it means that some doorways open into entrances or halls  that seem damp and unhealthy." Could it actually be a very funny, peculiar way to compare her to a damp unhealthy hallway? Or does that sound downright aburd?


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## helene james

I mean using to describe a person, a look adjectives that you wouldn't normally apply to a person, so bad is the shape she appears to be in. (It's a funny book. The guy is exaggerating all the time)


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## Carcassonnaise

Lol, helene, faut pas chercher trop loin quand meme!  I'm reasonably confident it refers to the kind of people you see in doorways because it's a fairly standard way of talking about the homeless.  Do a google search with doorways and homeless and you'll see.


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## helene james

No I believe you! Now you know how "lost" came about. You know how it is when you're searching too hard, you can't see anything after a while!


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## helene james

Un regard qu'on ne croise que sous les ponts. On aurait dit qu'elle arrivait directement de sous les ponts.


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## Carcassonnaise

Okay... I think you're definitely on the right lines!  You probably need an adjective to qualify the regard to convey something of the cold clamminess (idea of unhealthy could work - le regard froid et malsain?) and you're there...  Un regard froid et malsain qu'on ne croise que sous les ponts?


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## helene james

On aurait dit qu'elle n'allait jamais se réchauffer, comme si elle avait passé sa vie sous les ponts.


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## helene james

My question being still.. is he talking about her look - the look in her eyes... or the way she looks?


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## helene james

Un regard malsain... ou froid... sounds more like someone "perverse" to me. Which is not the point of course


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## Carcassonnaise

To me it conveys

cold - she is not connecting with anyone around her
clammy - squalid, seedy, unwashed, unhealthy

It could, helpfully, be either the way she looks or the look in her eyes... 

Well, yes, that's why I don't translate out of my mother tongue and why people shouldn't in general


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## helene james

Well french is my mother's tongue!


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## helene james

But that's still complicated!


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## helene james

It sounds to be more the way she looks, from what you say... In french, at least, most adjectives you say to define clammy would not really apply to a stare, blank or not.. would they?


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## Carcassonnaise

Yes, well you "can't" really say it in English... he is playing with the language, creating a kind of artist's impression with some unexpected daubs of the brush.  Can you not take it back to basics - Un regard moite et froid tel un SDF?  PS Or however you would best say it in French


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## helene james

Yes, still not exactly there for me, but much closer! I thnk yes, I must go back to something more simple and trust the image, so to speak... But I obviously need to let it to rest a little, even though it won't let me! Thank you very much!


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## Carcassonnaise

Je t'en prie!  I recognise another manic obsessive wordsmith when I see one


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## helene james

I bet! I hope tomorrow will bring the easy simple relevant stylish turn of phrase! I'll let you know! Big help anyway! Now I know exactly what I'm dealing with!


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