# Romance languages: Missing subjunctive tenses



## vince

Hello everyone,

I'm curious as to how each romance language handles subjunctive clauses that are in aspects/tenses that are no longer used. From what I've seen, it seems that many of these languages force an aspect, tense, or mood change (e.g. perfect --> imperfect, future --> present, or subjunctive --> indicative).

Let's start with the default sentence, which all (most?) languages should be able to handle in the subjunctive:

PRESENT:
I doubt that he is leaving (now)
It is impossible that he is leaving right now

Now for the harder ones:

* How do you say in your Romance language:*

_FUTURE event_

e.g. I doubt that he will leave
It is impossible that he will leave

_ PRESENT PERFECT past event:_
I doubt that he has left
It is impossible that he has left

_ PERFECT past event:_

I doubt that he left (all of a sudden)
It is impossible that he left (all of a sudden)

_ IMPERFECT process:_
I doubt that he was leaving (when I called him)
It is impossible that he was leaving (when I called him)

Could you please put down what tense/mood the "leaving" verb is in?

Thanks,
Vince


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## Joca

vince said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As for the Portuguese language (in Brazil). I'll be giving the names of the tenses in Portuguese, right?
> 
> I'm curious as to how each romance language handles subjunctive clauses that are in aspects/tenses that are no longer used. From what I've seen, it seems that many of these languages force an aspect, tense, or mood change (e.g. perfect --> imperfect, future --> present, or subjunctive --> indicative).
> 
> Let's start with the default sentence, which all (most?) languages should be able to handle in the subjunctive:
> 
> PRESENT:
> I doubt that he is leaving (now) Duvido que ele esteja partindo agora. (Actually this is a verbal locution. Some authors call it "Presente continuativo", perhaps mirroring Present Continuous in English. Here it'd be "Presente continuativo no subjuntivo". Others say "Presente do verbo ser + gerúndio". In Portugal, they tend to say: " Duvido que ele esteja a partir". They would rather use "ser + a + infinitivo".)
> It is impossible that he is leaving right now. É impossível que ele esteja partindo agora.
> 
> Now for the harder ones:
> 
> *How do you say in your Romance language:*
> 
> _FUTURE event_
> 
> e.g. I doubt that he will leave. Duvido que ele parta. (Presente do subjuntivo)
> It is impossible that he will leave. É impossível que ele parta.
> 
> _PRESENT PERFECT past event:_
> I doubt that he has left. Duvido que ele tenha partido. (Pretérito perfeito composto do subjuntivo)
> It is impossible that he has left. É impossível que ele tenha partido.
> 
> _PERFECT past event:_
> 
> I doubt that he left (all of a sudden). Duvido que ele partisse (de repente). (Pretérito imperfeito do subjuntivo)
> It is impossible that he left (all of a sudden). É impossível que ele partisse (de repente). (There may be other possibilities here. "Duvido que ele tivesse partido... É impossível que ele tivesse partido...)"
> 
> _IMPERFECT process:_
> I doubt that he was leaving (when I called him). Duvido que ele estivesse partindo (quando o chamei). (Pretérito continuativo no subjuntivo ?)
> It is impossible that he was leaving (when I called him). É impossível que ele estivesse partindo quando o chamei.
> 
> Could you please put down what tense/mood the "leaving" verb is in?
> 
> Thanks,
> Vince


 
Hope this is not very confusing.

JC


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## Outsider

Adding some alternatives to Joca's replies... (It's a little frustrating when people ask us to translate sentences without a context!)



Joca said:


> PRESENT:
> 
> I doubt that he is leaving (now) Duvido que ele esteja partindo agora. / Duvido que ele parta agora.
> 
> It is impossible that he is leaving right now. /  É impossível que ele parta agora.
> 
> _Leaving_ is in the PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE tense (my version), or the PRESENT CONTINUOUS SUBJUNCTIVE (Joca's version)
> 
> Now for the harder ones:
> 
> How do you say in your Romance language:
> 
> FUTURE event
> 
> e.g. I doubt that he will leave. Duvido que ele parta. (Presente do subjuntivo)
> It is impossible that he will leave. É impossível que ele parta.
> 
> PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE
> 
> PRESENT PERFECT past event:
> I doubt that he has left. Duvido que ele tenha partido. (Pretérito perfeito composto do subjuntivo)
> It is impossible that he has left. É impossível que ele tenha partido.
> 
> PRETERITE SUBJUNCTIVE
> 
> PERFECT past event:
> 
> I doubt that he left (all of a sudden). Duvido que ele partisse (de repente). (Pretérito imperfeito do subjuntivo) / Duvido que ele tenha partido.
> It is impossible that he left (all of a sudden). É impossível que ele partisse (de repente). (There may be other possibilities here. "Duvido que ele tivesse partido... É impossível que ele tivesse partido...)" / É impossível que ele tenha partido.
> 
> PRETERITE SUBJUNCTIVE / IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE.
> 
> IMPERFECT process:
> 
> I doubt that he was leaving (when I called him). Duvido que ele estivesse partindo (quando o chamei). (Pretérito continuativo no subjuntivo ?)
> It is impossible that he was leaving (when I called him). É impossível que ele estivesse partindo quando o chamei.
> 
> IMPERFECT CONTINUOUS SUBJUNCTIVE


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## betulina

Hi, 

In *Catalan* it would be like that:

PRESENT: - PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE
I doubt that he is leaving (now) - Dubto que se'n vagi / se n'estigui anant
It is impossible that he is leaving right now - És impossible que se n'estigui anant


_FUTURE event - _PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE

e.g. I doubt that he will leave - Dubto que se'n vagi
 It is impossible that he will leave - És impossible que se'n vagi

_ PRESENT PERFECT past event:_ - PAST PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE

 I doubt that he has left - Dubto que se n'hagi anat
It is impossible that he has left - És impossible que se n'hagi anat

_ PERFECT past event: - _PAST SUBJUNCTIVE

I doubt that he left (all of a sudden) - Dubto que se n'anés
It is impossible that he left (all of a sudden) - És impossible que se n'anés

_ IMPERFECT process: _- PAST "PLUSQUAMPERFET" SUBJUNCTIVE

 I doubt that he was leaving (when I called him) - Dubto que se n'estigués anant
It is impossible that he was leaving (when I called him) - És impossible que se n'estigués anant

Hope it's clear!


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## avalon2004

I see that you already know Spanish, but anyway!

For the following examples, I have just used your first phrase "I doubt that", because the second sentence would use the exact same form of verb throughout.

I doubt he is leaving- Dudo que *se vaya* (also theoretically possible but wholly uncommon: dudo que *esté yéndose*)
I doubt he will leave- Dudo *que se vaya*  (in antiguity: dudo que* se fuere*- _never _used in modern language)
I doubt he has left- Dudo que *se haya ido
*I doubt he left- Dudo que *se fuera/fuese
*I doubt he was leaving- Dudo que* se fuera/fuese *(*estuviera/estuviese yéndose*)
I doubt he had left- Dudo que* se hubiera/hubiese ido

**The continuous tense "to be going/estar yendo" is not used very often in Spanish and therefore the preference here is to use the one word present/imperfect subjunctive.
*Unlike Portuguese, Spanish has now lost its true future subjunctive except in older books (such as Don Quijote) and legal documents etc.
* There are two alternative forms for the past subjunctive (in this instance, either the -ra form or the -se form). Out of the two, the -ra form is the most common.


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## vince

Thank you

it looks like most romance languages so far substitute the present subjunctive for the future. And that often (e.g. Portuguese), a sentence that would have been eu parti becomes (que) eu tenha partido, thus a change from preterite to present perfect subjunctive

How about:
"I doubt that he did his homework everyday"?
or "I doubt that he used to bike that far?"

Thanks,
Vince


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:

"I doubt that he did his homework everyday"? - Duvido que ele fizesse a lição de casa/tarefa todos os dias. 
"I doubt that he used to bike that far?" - Duvido que fosse/chegasse tão longe de bicicleta.


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## betulina

In Catalan:

"I doubt that he did his homework everyday" - Dubto que fes els deures cada dia. 

"I doubt that he used to bike that far" - Dubto que acostumés a anar tan lluny amb bicicleta.

Past subjunctive (imperfet) in both cases.


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## jazyk

Looking at Betulina's examples, in Portuguese it's also possible to say:

"I doubt that he did his homework everyday"? - Duvido que fizesse sua lição de casa/tarefa/deveres todos os dias.
or "I doubt that he used to bike that far?" - Duvido que costumasse andar de bicicleta tão longe.


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## avalon2004

SPANISH

I doubt he did his homework every day* = Dudo que (él) hiciera sus deberes cada día.*

I doubt he used to ride his bike that far*= Dudo que (él) fuera tan lejos en bicicleta.
*Also possible*- Dudo que estuviera acostumbrado a ir tan lejos en bicicleta. *(for a specific imperfect meaning)


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## Outsider

jazyk said:


> In Portuguese:
> 
> "I doubt that he did his homework everyday"? - Duvido que ele fizesse a lição de casa/tarefa todos os dias.
> "I doubt that he used to bike that far?" - Duvido que fosse/chegasse tão longe de bicicleta.





jazyk said:


> Looking at Betulina's examples, in Portuguese it's also possible to say:
> 
> "I doubt that he did his homework everyday"? - Duvido que fizesse sua lição de casa/tarefa/deveres todos os dias.
> or "I doubt that he used to bike that far?" - Duvido que costumasse andar de bicicleta tão longe.


E mais uma possibilidade:

Duvido que ele tivesse feito a lição de casa/tarefa todos os dias.


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## jazyk

> E mais uma possibilidade:
> 
> Duvido que ele tivesse feito a lição de casa/tarefa todos os dias.


Não sei, mas esta parece-me estranha. _Tivesse feito_ dá-me idéia perfectiva, de alguém que levou a cabo alguma ação, e não se encaixa com o t_odos os dias_ expresso na oração, que exige o aspecto imperfectivo. Vai ver que é mais uma das minhas esquisitices.


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## Outsider

Um jovem deixa a sua terra para ir estudar para a cidade grande. Quando volta, os amigos perguntam-se como correu o primeiro ano de estudos, e ele diz que de facto não fez outra coisa senão estudar; que todos os dias os professores mandavam uma tarefa diferente para resolver em casa. Quando ele se vai embora, um dos amigos diz ao outro "Duvido que ele tivesse feito a lição de casa/tarefa todos os dias."

O que lhe parece?


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## jazyk

Não me parece. Seria interessante se os outros membros lusófonos interviessem para que numa só voz pudessem provar que eu estou errado.


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## olivinha

Ui, Outsider, I'm with Jazyk, as to convey the meaning of a habit I would also go for the impecfect tense. 
(Agora pro empate ou desempate total necessitamos da opinião de um português, please. )

O


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## Cnaeius

vince said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm curious as to how each romance language handles subjunctive clauses that are in aspects/tenses that are no longer used. From what I've seen, it seems that many of these languages force an aspect, tense, or mood change (e.g. perfect --> imperfect, future --> present, or subjunctive --> indicative).
> 
> Let's start with the default sentence, which all (most?) languages should be able to handle in the subjunctive:
> 
> PRESENT:
> I doubt that he is leaving (now)
> Dubito che se ne vada / stia andando (pres subj (progressive))
> It is impossible that he is leaving right now
> E' impossibile che se ne vada/stia andando proprio ora (pres subj (progressive))
> 
> Now for the harder ones:
> 
> *How do you say in your Romance language:*
> 
> _FUTURE event_
> 
> e.g. I doubt that he will leave
> Dubito che se ne vada/andrà (pres subj/fut)
> It is impossible that he will leave
> E' impossibile che se ne vada (pres subj)
> 
> _PRESENT PERFECT past event:_
> I doubt that he has left
> Dubito che se ne sia andato (perfect subj)
> It is impossible that he has left
> E' impossibile che se ne sia andato (perfect subj)
> 
> _PERFECT past event:_
> 
> I doubt that he left (all of a sudden)
> Dubito che se ne sia andato (perfect subj)
> It is impossible that he left (all of a sudden)
> E' impossibile che se ne sia andato (perfect subj)
> 
> _IMPERFECT process:_
> I doubt that he was leaving (when I called him)
> Dubito che se ne stesse andando (imperfect subj prog)
> It is impossible that he was leaving (when I called him)
> Dubito che se ne stesse andando (imperfect subj prog)
> 
> Could you please put down what tense/mood the "leaving" verb is in?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Vince


 
Italian imperfect subjunctive describes comtemporaneity between principal and subordinate clause when the principal clause tense is a past tense: I don't think it can be used alone with a present (or future) tense in the principal clause (as the example). Anyway imperfect progressive I think it can be used. I mean, to me it seems good


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## vince

Anyone have the French translations of these phrases, including  "I doubt that he did his homework everyday" and "I doubt that he used to bike that far?"?



olivinha said:


> Ui, Outsider, I'm with Jazyk, as to convey the meaning of a habit I would also go for the impecfect tense.
> (Agora pro empate ou desempate total necessitamos da opinião de um português, please. )
> 
> O



Could this be a difference between BP and EP?

Does this carry to other tenses as well? (e.g. simple past vs. ter + past participle)

what does tivesse feito mean to you?


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