# ménage à trois



## dd333

What does 'ménage à trois' mean among French people? When a French person uses this term, when speaking French, what are they referring to? Are they referring to a threesome, or are they referring to some type of relationship?

Would a French person say (in the French equivalent), 'I'm having a ménage à trois tonight'.

Or would they say they are in a ménage à trois type of relationship, as an ongoing thing?

Does that make any sense? How do the French use it among themselves? Quite curious to hear from French native speakers.


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## guillaumedemanzac

What is your definition in English?  Menage-a-trois without accents is English for a sexual relationship where 3 people are involved - not always living in the same house which is what the menage should mean.
e.g. He's in a weird menage-a-trois with the two sisters. 
She's got herself involved in a menage-a-trois with a gay couple from Brighton.


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## Yendred

"_J'ai un ménage à trois ce soir_" is meaningless in French.

In French, "_être en ménage_" means to have a lasting relationship with someone. So "_un ménage à trois_" is a lasting relationship with two other people.
The sexual meaning of this expression is not present in French. To specifically mean a sexual "one-shot" relation with two other people, we will say _"un plan à trois_" (= a threesome).


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## guillaumedemanzac

D'accord!! French definition!!

but threesome in English is just hanging out/going out as a "three-group", not sexual *unless* specified in the context of three people living or sleeping together.

We're going out somewhere and I really need a chaperone - could you possibly make up a threesome?

He's got a weird situation living in a small flat with both sisters. I think they're "in a threesome."

contexte is all  because threesome can be either in English.


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## Yendred

guillaumedemanzac said:


> but threesome in English is just hanging out/going out as a "three-group", not sexual unless specified.



Ok thanks for the precision!


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## Philippides

Yendred said:


> In French, "_être en ménage_" means to have a lasting relationship with someone. So "_un ménage à trois_" is a lasting relationship with two other people.
> *The sexual meaning of this expression is not present *in French.


Disons que l'expression ne dit pas qu'il y a des relations sexuelles à trois mais indique quand même qu'il y a des relations sexuelles au moins alternatives, non ?


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## LART01

Philippides said:


> Disons que l'expression ne dit pas qu'il y a des relations sexuelles à trois mais indique quand même qu'il y a des relations sexuelles au moins alternatives, non ?



On joue un peu sur les mots,non?
si quelqu'un vit avec 2 personnes...qui sait ce qui se passe dans la chambre à coucher?  mais on n'imagine pas que c'est en tout bien tout honneur de mon point de vue


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## Philippides

LART01 said:


> On joue un peu sur les mots,non?


Je réagissais juste à la remarque de Yendred "The sexual meaning of this expression is not present"
(mais je coupe peut-être les cheveux en 4 (ou en 3)


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## Itisi

WIkipedia says (and I agree) that "A ménage à trois is a domestic arrangement in which three people having romantic and/or sexual relations with each other occupy the same household. It is a form of polyamory."


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## dd333

guillaumedemanzac said:


> D'accord!! French definition!!
> 
> but threesome in English is just hanging out/going out as a "three-group", not sexual unless specified.


Actually, I disagree. I was talking about a threesome as the sexual conotation.

So the French would not use ménage à trois to describe the threesome with a sexual connotation? But something else.


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## Soleil_Couchant

^ From what I've gathered on this thread, they don't use "menage à trois" for the obvious sexual threesome meaning that we do in English. And yes, in English, both threesome and menage à trois immediately bring to mind sexual relations between three people. The "menage à trois" term I feel is sometimes used in a tongue-in-cheek way to try to make "threesome" sound classier lol.


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## dd333

Yes, but my question was, do they use it this way in France? In America, it has its obvious connotation that  refers to a specific sexual act. But is it so in France?


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## Yendred

dd333 said:


> So the French would not use ménage à trois to describe the threesome with a sexual connotation? But something else.



Yes, we would use "_plan à trois_" for a sexual threesome.
"_Ménage à trois_" does not refer to a sexual threesome, but to a love/affective relationship between three people (which may of course include sex).

And in addition, if we can say "_ce soir, j'ai un plan à trois_", we cannot say "_ce soir, j'ai un ménage à trois_", since _ménage à trois_ implies a non "one-shot" relationship, and the expression cannot be grammatically used this way.
Instead, we would say for example, "_je vis en ménage à trois depuis un an._" or "_Mon frère et sa femme hébergent l'ex-femme de mon frère chez eux. Ça sent le ménage à trois_."


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## Soleil_Couchant

dd333 said:


> Yes, but my question was, do they use it this way in France? In America, it has its obvious connotation that  refers to a specific sexual act. But is it so in France?



I know, that's why I said "From what I've gathered on this thread, they don't use "menage à trois" for the obvious sexual threesome meaning that we do in English."   And Yendred answered that up above, too (even before their latest post).

My other comments were responding to some of the other remarks from English speakers on here as to what threesome and/or ménage à trois mean.


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## Nicomon

Yendred said:


> To specifically mean a sexual "one-shot" relation with two other people, we will say _"un plan à trois_"


Et au Québec, on dirait :_ un trip à trois. 
_
This thread reminded me of an old TV sitcom : Three's Company  But those three friends lived together platonically... or so we were led to believe.
I think  it was translated as « _Vivre à trois » _, but I  could very well have said  « _Ménage à trois_ » in French.


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## wildan1

Soleil_Couchant said:


> both threesome and menage à trois immediately bring to mind sexual relations between three people.


I don't agree. 

While the French term, as used in English without translation, (sometimes shortened to _"a menage"_) does indeed mean three-way sex, even one time, _a threesome_ without further specific context can mean three people doing many things--in golf, it is common to call three people playing the game together _a threesome_.


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## Soleil_Couchant

uhhhhh....well don't go up to any young people asking if they want a threesome with you because they will assume it's sex. Maybe it's a generational thing (no offense). For what you said, I would say "a trio" ...definitely not a threesome.


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## wildan1

Then maybe you don't play golf SC...

* Threesome (Golf) - Definition,meaning - Online Encyclopedia

What you are describing is what I hear people call _a three-way.



			Anglais Français
*three-way* n (sex with three people) (familier) plan à trois nm

Click to expand...

_


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## Soleil_Couchant

Nope, I don't. The majority of (non-golf playing) people are going to assume this is sexual. Like I said, maybe it's a generational thing. Threesome = sex with three people. Yes, three-way and menage à trois mean it, too. I think the sexual meaning of "threesome" culturally has overridden its other meanings, nowadays, so it's not typically used except for that (unless you're playing golf, apparently  ).

I'm not saying threesome is the ONLY way to describe it. But that nowadays, in non-golf circles, when people hear "threesome" it's likely that the sexual connotation will be the immediate first thing that comes to mind. And even in the Wikipedia article for Threesome, at the top it says "_Three-way" redirects here_ ... soooo....


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## tartopom

Je me vois pas dire, en parlant de mes 2 collocs: " On fait ménage à trois". "On partage le même appart / on est en colloc"  ou ce genre de truc, d'accord.
Mais franchement " on fait ménage à trois" - to me - sounds horny.


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## Nicomon

I agree with wildan that _threesome _doesn't automatically mean sex.  By definition, it is :


> a group of three people engaged in the same activity.


 Said activity doesn't have to be sex.

Just as I wouldn't associate foursome to group sex. But that's apparently said too...

@ tartopom :  J'aurais dit « Ménage à trois » pour le titre de la sitcom mentionnée.
Pas pour ton contexte de trois colocs (un seul « l ») qui partagent le même appart' . 

En clair, je pense comme Yandred : 





> "_Ménage à trois_" does not refer to a sexual threesome, but to a love/affective relationship between three people (which may of course include sex).


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## Soleil_Couchant

Nicomon, yes that is what the dictionary says. I see that. But if you go to the United States, please don't mention a threesome to someone unless you want three-way sex with them. Just sayin. As mentioned, the sexual meaning dominates nowadays.


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## dd333

tartopom said:


> Je me vois pas dire, en parlant de mes 2 collocs: " On fait ménage à trois". "On partage le même appart / on est en colloc"  ou ce genre de truc, d'accord.
> Mais franchement " on fait ménage à trois" - to me - sounds horny.



Yes, perhaps it has sexual implication that there are romantic relations occurring in the 'household', but ménage à trois does not refer to a specific sexual act (being a threesome), correct?


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## tartopom

I think for some people it doesn't but to me it does. It sounds like "plan à 3 / triolisme".


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## lentulax

(UK) In a 'threesome' (in a sexual context) three people are involved together at the same time in sexual activity. In a menage a trois, this is not usually the case. Let's say a husband, his wife , and his mistress share a home ; the husband may have sex with his mistress, he may have it with his wife too (though not at the same time); wife and mistress do not meet in bed. This is the normal type of situation suggested : the Wikipedia article referenced in #9 gives many historical examples , and in most of these it is clear that , of the three possible pairings, only one or two were sexual, and that the three individuals were in some cases not each linked to each of the other two even by ties of affection. Though sex may usually be involved in some way, we certainly sometimes use the expression where it isn't at all . I don't remember seeing (until #2) or hearing the term menage a trois used for three people who were not actually living together, but perhaps it is in some places.


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## Soleil_Couchant

lentulax said:


> (UK)  I don't remember seeing (until #2) or hearing the term menage a trois used for three people who were not actually living together, but perhaps it is in some places.



Yes. In the US, it's used as a "fancy" way of saying threesome or three-way.

Edit: And it appears there is already a thread along these same lines under "threesome"...talking about how "menage à trois / plan à trois / triolisme / trip à trois" are French equivalents...complete with wildan1 talking about his golf threesomes and another American saying how threesomes has a chiefly sexual connotation nowadays...  threesome  Different title but very similar theme...


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## Nicomon

Wildan wrote in the thread that S_C linked to : 





wildan1 said:


> If the three people are also in love (having sex or not, all three in love, or two people sharing the third as a love object), we call it _*a love triangle*_


  That's indeed what I've heard.  Literally translated as triangle amoureux_._


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## Kecha

tartopom said:


> I think for some people it doesn't but to me it does. It sounds like "plan à 3 / triolisme".


As a lot of people have said above, "plan à trois" has the connotation of a one-night thing, while "ménage à trois" suggests a more "long-term", settled-down thing.
I don't think anyone said "ménage à trois" can describe a "coloc", I think what people meant when saying "it's not sexual" is that it describes the relationship aspects of it, more than the sex aspects of it. Same difference than between "être en couple" and "s'envoyer en l'air", yes, couple do have sex, but that's not the main description of "être en couple".


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## Monicaallred

Bonjour !

J'aimerais ajouter deux constatations au fil. D'abord, sur Wiktionnaire, la troisième définition de _ménage à trois _est telle que transcrite ci-dessous :
"_(Sexualité)_ Triolisme, pratique sexuelle impliquant trois personnes.

_Cappie veut improviser un *ménage à trois* pour prouver à ses frères qu’il n’est pas l’homme d’une seule femme."_
Deuxièmement, il y a un article datant de 2014 qui s'appelle "Comment avoir un ménage à trois dans les règles d'art" qui parle clairement d'une relation sexuelle pas fréquente entre trois personnes : Comment avoir un ménage à trois dans les règles de l’art ? (apparemment il s'agit d'un site québécois...)


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## Aristide

C'est intéressant de consulter Ngram Viewer pour voir de quand datent ces différentes expressions.
Google Books Ngram Viewer

Au départ, en France, "ménage à trois" était certainement une formule ironique. On la trouve dans des romans et pièces de théâtre légères du 19e siècle. Maintenant encore, les gens normaux l'utilisent de façon humoristique. C'est seulement wikipedia et la presse en général qui utilisent cette expression d'un air sérieux, comme s'il s'agissait d'un terme technique.

C'est seulement à partir des années 2000 que les médias et les milieux publicitaires ont commencé à répandre les expressions "bon plan", "plan cul", "plan à trois", etc. C'est censé faire jeune, mais ça vient des publicitaires, et non pas des jeunes. On se demande pourquoi les médias veulent faire croire que leurs inventions linguistiques proviennent du peuple.

Pour la presse et les agences de publicité, "bon plan" est souvent synonyme de promotion commerciale. Ou bien ça désigne des idées de sorties, de restaurants ou de vacances pas trop chères. Ensuite, les même médias ont commencé à introduire ce vocabulaire dans le domaine de la vie sexuelle, comme si les gens étaient des objets de consommation...

Tout ça pour dire qu'à mon avis, il vaut mieux laisser ce vocabulaire-là aux médias.


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