# To catch (actively / passively)



## ThomasK

I recently wondered about this word because it seems to be both almost passive - when something like a star is falling: you 'just" (try to) catch it - and very active - catching butterflies, birds, escaped prisoners, implies something like hunting for them.

We have the same thing with "*vangen*" in Dutch: vallende sterrende vangen and vogels [birds] vangen implies something very different. And very typical: based on it are both a prison (*gevangenis*) and relief for refugees, children's care (*opvang*). In one case you are "constraining" force-ful (...) people in cells (after "catching" them), in the other you stop weak people, people in need, from falling down, figuratively speaking.

Can you recognize a similar verb in your language, with that semantic scope?


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## ThomasK

Maybe I ought to add: if you don't have one verb (which might be the reason why there have been no replies up to now), I am still interested in hearing about the different verbs you use to express both meanings (active and pass., let's say) - and possibly derivations based on it.

I think French can use _*attraper*_ for both meanings, but maybe with one difference that _attraper_ is just the act whereas with us there is link with the result in the derivations (_gevangenis, opvang_). Funnily French does not have any derivations from attraper, as far as I know, but it does have _*accueillir*_ and _*accueil*_, which refer to the "taking", well, picking, not the  catching. But _accueil_ is like our _opvang, _though it might be a little warmer.


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## ger4

I think in German we normally use the verb _*einfangen *_to translate 'catch' in its more active sense (catching something that's moving away from the speaker) and _*auffangen*_ in its more passive sense (catching something that's moving towards the speaker). The verb _*fangen*_ without a prefix seems to be more more generic. Not sure if this pattern always applies but it might be useful as a rule of thumb. These are some examples:

_einen Hund einfangen_ - to catch a dog (that has been running away from the speaker)
_einen Schmetterling fangen_ - to catch a butterfly (that is moving in several different directions)
_einen Ball fangen_ - to catch a ball (that is moving in an unspecified direction)
_einen Ball auffangen_ - to catch a ball (that is moving towards the speaker)
_einen Apfel auffangen_ - to catch an apple (that is falling from a tree, towards the speaker)


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## ThomasK

I see, yes, that is different from Dutch. We could _opvangen_ a falling star, but not *_invangen_ cats or dogs.


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## 810senior

In Japanese:
捕まえるtsukama-eru (to go catching something or someone that's running away from the speaker), from an obsolete form _tsukama-u_ to catch dating back to _tsukam-u_ to grasp, to clench.
受け止めるuk-e-tom-eru (to catch or to stop something that's racing towards the speaker) which is a compound word consisting of both _uk-eru_(to receive) and _tom-eru_(to stop, as a transitive).


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## ThomasK

I suppose the "tsuk" root is not linked with the "uk" (something like "to take"). As for the second verb: racing or falling? If something comes towards me racing, I'd be inclined to defend myself - or as is suggested by _tom-eru_, to stop it... I suppose you do not consider them linked therefore.

Very interesting to notice this difference: that the "passive" catching is more like stopping from your point of view. But I am very curious whether the movement suggested by uk-e-tom-eru is sidewrd, and not (strictly) downward!


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## Nawaq

ThomasK said:


> I think French can use _*attraper*_ for both meanings, but maybe with one difference that _attraper_ is just the act whereas with us there is link with the result in the derivations (_gevangenis, opvang_). Funnily French does not have any derivations from attraper, as far as I know..



There is _rattraper "_to catch up, catch again etc", _attrapeur/euse_ "catcher", _attrape _and its own derivatives like _attrape-rêves_ "dreamcatcher", some older words not really used today I think like _attrapade_, _attrapoire_, _attrapage_...


Beside that I can't help you with the rest.


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## ThomasK

But that is quite interesting. Can you say _l'attrapage d'un voleur_? I am looking for the word referring to the action of _attraper_ (_the catch_ in English is also only the 'fruit", not the act itself, I believe). Would you say that you _attrape un ballon_ (I think you do) and that you _attrape des oiseaux_ using a net (_filet_...)?

You could not use _cueillir_ in any of those cases, I suppose, whereas you might perhaps, perhaps,  _accueillir un oiseau_ maybe, if we mean: take care of it...


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## Nawaq

Salut Thomas,

_L'attrapage d'un voleur_, no, or in a funny way maybe but it doesn't sound too great, we'd better say _"le voleur a été attrapé"_ or _"ils (the people, police, whoever) ont attrapé le voleur"_, something like that. Like you said about derivatives, I don't think there is a word like this in French, or maybe there is but I can't think of it.

_Attraper un ballon_ yes we do that, also _attraper des oiseaux_ is OK. And you're right about cueillir too. _Accueillir un oiseau_ doesn't sound natural to me, _"France accueillera l'Euro 2016"_, yes, _"je t'accueille chez moi"_, yes, also _" aujourd'hui le zoo de la Flèche accueille un nouveau pensionnaire"_, but just like this on its own, I don't think so, but I will let others correct me.


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## ThomasK

Merci, Nawaq. It is as I thought: not quite natural. One last question: what do you associate with _attraper_ vs. _cueillir_ spontaneously? For example: big efforts, coincidence, maybe gratitude, etc. ? Just anything that comes to mind...


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## Nawaq

Hum, I don't know, _attraper_ sound, how to say that, more "active" (you used that wore at one point), more "violent", _"j'ai attrapé froid, j'ai attrapé la grippe"_, _cueillir_ sound more delicate, you _cueille_ fruits, flowers and mushrooms for example, you don't really _attrape_ them (even if you ultimately can it sound better to say _cueillir_).


Does it answer your question at all ?


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## ThomasK

Yes, it does, that is the kind of information I wanted. The associations are quite different therefore, in part as in Dutch. But our _opvangen_ is certainly not violent, only refers to catching somehow passively, not doing great efforts, just responding in the right way, mainly by stopping from falling. Merci!


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## Nawaq

Well, after some more thinking, I still think _attraper_ is quite "violent" (really I don't know how to express myself correctly in English, forgive me), because when uou _"attrape la grippe"_ for example, you don't do much, but the result is quite painful, when you _"attrape un ballon"_ it's not asking big efforts either, depending if you _attrape _a ball someone just threw at you or if you have to catch it by yourself, but if someone say for example _"attrapez-moi cet imbécile",_ you can imagine where the "violence" comes from. It's all very philosophical and I think I am rambling. So hum yes, _attraper_ is a very active word, that's it. I am really totally sorry for the confusing rambling.


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## ThomasK

I think this "rambling" is just the way to truth (not thé truth, but ...), don't worry. I understand what you mean by those _grippe/ voleur_ examples.


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## Nawaq

Great, if you have any more questions like this, I'd gladly ramble some more for you.


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## rusita preciosa

In Russisn typically to catch (active) and to be caught ( passive) are expressed by two verbs 

Поймать /poymat'/ - to catch
When the catcher is active; e.g. to catch a butterfly with a net.  The root is the same as иметь - to have

Попасться /popastsya/ - to get caught 
When the catcher us passive; e.g. a wolf got caught in a trap. It is a reflective verb and it has the same root as упасть - to fall. The non-reflective equivalent of that verb, попасть, means to find onseslf somewhere, to get somewhere.


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## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> I suppose the "tsuk" root is not linked with the "uk" (something like "to take"). As for the second verb: racing or falling? If something comes towards me racing, I'd be inclined to defend myself - or as is suggested by _tom-eru_, to stop it... I suppose you do not consider them linked therefore.
> 
> Very interesting to notice this difference: that the "passive" catching is more like stopping from your point of view. But I am very curious whether the movement suggested by uk-e-tom-eru is sidewrd, and not (strictly) downward!



It's a simple logic: you should _stop _something moving towards you in order to _receive _and obtain something. I understand that, since the first action of passively catching is to stop it moving, it should be something like tom-e-uk-eru(lit. to stop and receive). I don't know the reason uk-eru comes frist.

I can uketomeru anything from any direction, sideways, downwards and backwards, if only it is possible *physically *for me.


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## ThomasK

@810senior: you're quite right, it is quite logical in that sense. But then defense does not sound like _uketomeru_, does it, as I seem to recognize the same movement pattern...



ThomasK said:


> I think this "rambling" is just the way to truth (not thé truth, but ...), don't worry. I understand what you mean by those _grippe/ voleur_ examples.


@Nawaq: I just thought that this attraper une grippe is different from the others. In the latter case you just don't want it. We could not use vangen here - and I wonder if Japanese would use it for a cold...


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## ThomasK

rusita preciosa said:


> In Russisn typically to catch (active) and to be caught ( passive) are expressed by two verbs
> 
> /poymat'/ - to catch
> When the catcher is active; e.g. to catch a butterfly with a net.  The root is the same as иметь - to have
> 
> Попасться /popastsya/ - to get caught
> When the catcher us passive; e.g. a wolf got caught in a trap. It is a reflective verb and it has the same root as упасть - to fall. The non-reflective equivalent of that verb, попасть, means to find onseslf somewhere, to get somewhere.


Thanks, but there is a little problem here. I mean: I did use "passive", but not in the grammatical sense. I referred to catching a falling apple (by just opening your hands for example) vs. a (running) thief (that will take quite some efforts, I suspect). Can you use Поймать in both cases?
Do I recognize a prefix in that word ('po')? What is its meaning?


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## apmoy70

In Greek the generic active verb is *«πιάνω»* [ˈp͡çano] < Koine active v. *«πιάζω» pĭázō* < Classical active v. *«πιέζω» pĭézō* --> _to press, push, beset, weigh down, outweigh_ (the Koine variant «πιάζω» is an innovation after the verbs in «-άζω» or by phonetic development from «πιέζω»). Τhe modern meanings of _catching, laying, holding_, appear later in the language (its etymology is unexplained) eg:
*«Πιάνω την μπάλα»* [ˈp͡çano tiɱ͜ ˈbala] --> _to catch the ball_
*«Πιάνω δουλειά»* [ˈp͡çano ðuˈʎa] --> lit. _to catch a job_ (idiom.) _to get a job_
*«Πιάνω πουλιά στον αέρα»* [ˈp͡çano puˈʎa ston aˈeɾa] --> lit. _to catch birds in the air_ (idiom.) _to be dead sharp, see through a millstone_

The mediopassive form is *«πιάνομαι»* [ˈp͡çanome] --> _to be caught_ but it's rarely used, the one and only phrase I have in mind is the idiomatic one *«πιάνομαι κότσος»* [ˈp͡çanome ˈkoʦ͡os] --> lit. _to be gathered (as) a hair-bun_ (idiom.) _to be taken for a ride, be taken in_.

The mediopassive v. *«συλλαμβάνομαι»* [silamˈvanome] is the one preferred when instead of the agent, one becomes the patient upon whom the action is carried out.
Thus a fugitive who's been caught, *«συνελήφθη»* [sineˈlifθi] (3rd p. sing. aorist indicative mediopassive voice) instead of *«πιάστηκε»* [ˈp͡çastice] (3rd p. sing. aorist indicative mediopassive voice), although the latter is sometimes used colloquially.

Some etymology
-MoGr v. *«συλλαμβάνω»* [silamˈvano] (active voice), *«συλλαμβάνομαι»* [silamˈvanome] (mediopassive voice) --> (active v.) _to arrest, comprehend, conceive_, (mediopassive) _to be caught, arrested_ < Classical v. *«συλλαμβάνω» sŭllămbánō* < compound; prefix and preposition *«σύν» sún*, Attic *«ξύν» k͡sún* --> _with, together_ (with obscure etymology) + Classical v. *«λαμβάνω» lămbánō* (PIE *sleh₂gʷ- _to take, grasp_ cf Proto-Germanic *lakjaną > Eng. latch).

-MoGr masc. noun *«κότσος»* [ˈkoʦ͡os] --> _hair-bun, chignon, topknot_ < Classical masc. noun *«κόττος» kόttŏs* --> _hairdress with long hair on the forehead, Doric name of head, Koine name of cock_ (the latter because of the crest or tuft on the bird's head); the MoGr [ʦ͡] is the modern tsitacism of the ancient geminate /-tt-/.
It's etymology is obscure (possibly pre-Greek).


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## ThomasK

Do I understand correctly that the meanings of *πιάνω* are very diverse nowadays? I am most surprised that the Original means do not resemble those of "to catch". Of course one could say that one way of catching X is to put X down (reminds me of the Japanese stop-root)... Holding can be related with catching, but it seems secondary, the first one being grabbing or something the like, but I don't seem to recognize that meaning in the original (except as putting down).

Would you distinguish between catching a thief, catching a ball and catching a cold, or can you use the same verb?

Please explain the link between catching and _*κότσος*_ again. I don't see it, I'd say.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Do I understand correctly that the meanings of *πιάνω* are very diverse nowadays? I am most surprised that the Original means do not resemble those of "to catch". Of course one could say that one way of catching X is to put X down (reminds me of the Japanese stop-root)... Holding can be related with catching, but it seems secondary, the first one being grabbing or something the like, but I don't seem to recognize that meaning in the original (except as putting down).


Yep, you are correct.


ThomasK said:


> Would you distinguish between catching a thief, catching a ball and catching a cold, or can you use the same verb?


«Πιάνω» covers all three of them.
However, I'm reminded that colloquially, for _catching_, one could also use the verb *«τσακώνω»* [ʦ͡aˈkono] --> _to catch, grab, snare_ a verb with interesting etymology; it derives from the Doric v. *«σᾱκόω/σᾱκῶ» sākóō* (uncontracted)/*sākô* (contracted) --> _to weigh against, balance, equalize, compensate_ via the mediaeval dialectal *σσακόω (to grab) > *τσακόω (following the tsitacism of the initial geminate /σσ/).
With «τσακώνω» one catches a ball, a thief, or a cold.


ThomasK said:


> Please explain the link between catching and _*κότσος*_ again. I don't see it, I'd say.


No link at all, it was provided as a bonus (and interesting) etymological trivia


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## ThomasK

The new verb *τσακώνω *then seems to refer - at least etymologically - to outweigh (correct), which I'd interpret as making someone stumble or something but then "equalize" and 'compensate" seem to be antonyms of the outweighing - or am I interpreting wrongly or too much?

The *reference to grabbing* reminds of Russian and of Japanese (tsukama-eru < tsukam-u)... In Dutch and German we see it as some form of grabbing, taking, but I don't think there is an etymological link with grabbing --- except perhaps in "to receive", where we could recognize Latin "capere", but receiving and catching are not true synonyms...


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## rusita preciosa

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, but there is a little problem here. I mean: I did use "passive", but not in the grammatical sense. I referred to catching a falling apple (by just opening your hands for example) vs. a (running) thief (that will take quite some efforts, I suspect). Can you use Поймать in both cases?
> Do I recognize a prefix in that word ('po')? What is its meaning?


We use поймать in both cases.

The meaning of the prefix по- in this is not clear, to me, it could designate a completed action.

BTW, поймать is a perfective verb; imperfective equivalent is ловить /lovit'/ - to be catching / hunting.

E.g.
Вчера я ловил рыбу - I was fishing yesterday
Вчера я поймал рыбу - I caight a fish yesterday

Я ловил падающие яблоки - I was catching fallen apples
Я поймал три яблока - I caught three apples


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## 123xyz

Macedonian:

*фаќа/фати* (fakja/fati) - catch passively (e.g. a ball, a star); to catch a disease; sometimes also to catch actively (e.g. romantic partner - we use this verb for love relationships too); touch; begin doing something (clearly a very broad semantic scope)
*лови/улови* (lovi/ulovi) - catch actively; also means "hunt" (e.g. a butterfly)


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