# [French] How to make the [ɔ] sound?



## cetait

There's not really much for me to say about this sound except for whenever I try to say it, it comes out as an [o] or [œ] sound. If I was to say 'note' for example it would just sound like 'noete' or 'note' except with an [o] sound. And personally when I hear it, I mistaken it for one of these two sounds, most often [œ]. Can anyone help?

If it means anything, I have a cot-caught merger and thus I don't pronounce this sound in English.


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## berndf

If you have a cot-caught merger, you probably *do* pronounce [ɔ] but you don't pronounce [o].

Listen to these four pronunciations of _story_. The three US speakers all say [st*ɔ*ri]. The UK speaker says [st*o*ɹi]*. Which one is closer to how you are saying it?
__________
_*Well, not precisely a cardinal [o] as it exists in French but very close to it._


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## cetait

Closer to the American ones but I thought this was a case of r-coloured vowels?


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## berndf

_o_ is not one of those vowels that receive r-colouring. But nevertheless _o_ in front of _r_ is special. I chose it because the tendency to raise [ɔ] to [o] in modern British English is particularly strong and consistent. Listen to the pronunciations of _fought_. The American speaker says [fɑt]; that doesn't count and is probably not your accent. FrauSue says [fɔːtʰ] as you would in traditional RP. gemmelo has a raised [ɔ] and a glottalized /t/, i..e. she says [foːʔ] and this is pretty close how you pronounce _faux_ in French. You probably pronounce _faught_ as [fɔt]. That is how _faute _is pronounced with a southern French accent whereas standard French is [fot].


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## cetait

Actually, the American pronunciation is how I'd say it.

I have noticed recently that French IPA transcriptions that have an [o] are actually written with an [ɔ]. Like donner for example is written with an [ɔ] but on forvo is pronounced with an [o], and I've seen that more or less for a lot of words too. The issue isn't that I can't pronounce [o] but rather that I seemingly can't pronounce [ɔ]. Like in a word such as tèlèphone, yesterday I was speaking to a French native and didn't even put in any effort to try to pronounce [ɔ] properly and just said "télépheune" and he said it sounded great to him. I also did the same thing with the word 'sonne' and pronounced it as 'seune' and again he had not even the slightest qualm to correct about my pronunciation with that, so I'm still confused.

Also, this may not mean much either but if I were to put téléphone and télépheune into google translate and hear the word be pronounced, they sound exactly the same. Is there some sort of merger with [ɔ] and [œ]?


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## berndf

cetait said:


> Actually, the American pronunciation is how I'd say it.


Oh, I see. When you said you had a _cot-caught_ merger I thought of a New England accent. I was obviously wrong.

So, you unround both, your _cot_ and _caught_ vowels (_cot_=_caught=_[cɑt]).


cetait said:


> I have noticed recently that French IPA transcriptions that have an [o] are actually written with an [ɔ]. Like donner for example is written with an [ɔ] but on forvo is pronounced with an [o], and I've seen that more or less for a lot of words too.


In modern French there is a certain tendency to raise mid open vowels to mid closed in open syllables. That is not reflected in phonemic transcriptions in dictionaries. I am convinced, the speaker says _je donne_ with an open_ o_.


cetait said:


> Like in a word such as tèlèphone, yesterday I was speaking to a French native and didn't even put in any effort to try to pronounce [ɔ] properly and just said "télépheune" and he said it sounded great to him. I also did the same thing with the word 'sonne' and pronounced it as 'seune' and again he had not even the slightest qualm to correct about my pronunciation with that, so I'm still confused.


Could it be that your problem is with [œ] and not with [ɔ]? In my experience that would make much more sense as rounded front vowels are notoriously difficult for English speakers. Can you explain how you understand the difference between [œ] and [ɔ]?


cetait said:


> Is there some sort of merger with [ɔ] and [œ]?


Like a _cœur-corps _merger? No, I don't think so. Maybe you could record how you pronounce these two words.


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## merquiades

Pronounce _seau_ and _peau_ and then drop your jaw and make sure your lips are very rounded.  You'll get _sors _and_ port_.  By dropping the jaw you automatically open the vowel.

If you pronounce _soeur_ or _peur_ and someone thinks you said _sors_ or _port_ correctly, maybe it's really your "eu" sounds that are off.   These should be all the way to the front of the mouth close to where you say _serre _or _père_, but again drop your jaw and round your lips.   Normally _soeur_ and _sors_  or  _peur_ and _port_ are quite different because they come from different areas of the mouth, front/back.  If you find you are merging them,  either the open"o" is going too far forward or the open "eu" is too far back in the mouth.  There are no central vowels in French so there cannot be merger.  The u in English but or fun is central but that's not French.


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## cetait

berndf said:


> Oh, I see. When you said you had a _cot-caught_ merger I thought of a New England accent. I was obviously wrong.
> 
> So, you unround both, your _cot_ and _caught_ vowels (_cot_=_caught=_[cɑt]).
> 
> In modern French there is a certain tendency to raise mid open vowels to mid closed in open syllables. That is not reflected in phonemic transcriptions in dictionaries. I am convinced, the speaker says _je donne_ with an open_ o_.
> 
> Could it be that your problem is with [œ] and not with [ɔ]? In my experience that would make much more sense as rounded front vowels are notoriously difficult for English speakers. Can you explain how you understand the difference between [œ] and [ɔ]?
> 
> Like a _cœur-corps _merger? No, I don't think so. Maybe you could record how you pronounce these two words.



I never thought the problem could be with [œ], however in the past I was told that my attempts at saying [ɔ] sounded like the former sound, according to French natives. However the feedback was inconsistent since one would say it sounded great, another would say it sounded unambiguously like [œ] and sounded weird to them. And I'm the type of person where, even after I'm told something is great, sounds good, I immediately ask something like "you have absolutely NOTHING to critique? Even if it's minor?" and the people who would say it sounded great would stick to their answer. I've also been told it sounds like a back A, but I only had that comment once or twice. 

I'll make some recordings. First recording is me saying: Le téléphone du charbonnier sonne à Carcassone

SpeakPipe - receive voice messages from your audience directly on your website.

Second is me saying these words with [ɔ]: sort, note, poche, brosse, pote, sotte, trotte, botte, grelotte, poirotte

SpeakPipe - receive voice messages from your audience directly on your website.

Third is me saying [œ] with the following words: oeuf, leur, fleur, soeur, meilleur, rêveur, feuille, boeuf, coeur, pleure:

SpeakPipe - receive voice messages from your audience directly on your website.

edit: last clip is me saying coeur/corps

SpeakPipe - receive voice messages from your audience directly on your website.


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## cetait

merquiades said:


> Pronounce _seau_ and _peau_ and then drop your jaw and make sure your lips are very rounded.  You'll get _sors _and_ port_.  By dropping the jaw you automatically open the vowel.
> 
> If you pronounce _soeur_ or _peur_ and someone thinks you said _sors_ or _port_ correctly, maybe it's really your "eu" sounds that are off.   These should be all the way to the front of the mouth close to where you say _serre _or _père_, but again drop your jaw and round your lips.   Normally _soeur_ and _sors_  or  _peur_ and _port_ are quite different because they come from different areas of the mouth, front/back.  If you find you are merging them,  either the open"o" is going too far forward or the open "eu" is too far back in the mouth.  There are no central vowels in French so there cannot be merger.  The u in English but or fun is central but that's not French.



Well, here's the thing, In your example, sors and port sound like a closed O to me (when i hear it on forvo at least). I've never had an issue when pronouncing 'eu' was mistaken for an open O, it was really the other way around and that wasn't in every instance. And maybe it's just me but every instance I find of, say, peau vs pot, seau vs sors sound the same to me (with a closed O). I have some clips in my previous post if you wanna lsiten for examples of my oe and open O. A feedback I get quite often is that my open O sounds very quebecois, if that means anything (i get that comment in general about my accent, even though i'm aiming to learn france french)


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## berndf

To me, some of your [ɔ] sound fine, some sound like [ʌ] or even [ə]. I think you are not always rounding your lips enough.


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## cetait

berndf said:


> To me, some of your [ɔ] sound fine, some sound like [ʌ] or even [ə]. I think you are not always rounding your lips enough.


Could you list some examples so i could identify them more clearly?


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## berndf

_Téléphone, sort_ and _corps_ sound good. _Poche_ and _potte are _almost good. _Note_ really sounded like English _nut_ pronounced by a French speaker, i.e. somewhere between [ʌ] and [ə] with an ever so slight rounding. I now understand why you talked of a [ɔ]-[œ] merger. French [ə] and [œ] are close to merging. If you pronounce [ɔ] like a French [ə] it makes sense that you perceive [ɔ] and [œ] as similar (which, in reality, they are not).


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## cetait

berndf said:


> _Téléphone, sort_ and _corps_ sound good. _Poche_ and _potte are _almost good. _Note_ really sounded like English _nut_ pronounced by a French speaker, i.e. somewhere between [ʌ] and [ə] with an ever so slight rounding. I now understand why you talked of a [ɔ]-[œ] merger. French [ə] and [œ] are close to merging. If you pronounce [ɔ] like a French [ə] it makes sense that you perceive [ɔ] and [œ] as similar (which, in reality, they are not).



Hmm so I guess it is true, you can't (fully) perceive sounds you can't pronounce yourself. And you are right about note; when I say it my lips are rather flat and unrounded, compared to the other words. So I suppose I can make the sound, just not consistently which I'll get to work on asap. 

I also wanted to ask for a short critique of my accent (since I didn't say much): I suppose first, what does it sound like to you? And other than this sound in particular are there any improvements you'd recommend?


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## Swatters

There's a well documented tendency to front /ɔ/ in current French, but yours are sometimes _too_ fronted, yes. Your /œ/ sounds good except in _feuille _where it's both too high and not rounded enough, trending toward [e].


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## berndf

cetait said:


> So I suppose I can make the sound, just not consistently...


Yes. It seems to depend on the following sounds. In front of _r_ your [ɔ] is generally better rounded. Probably because you do the same in English.


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## merquiades

cetait said:


> Well, here's the thing, In your example, sors and port sound like a closed O to me (when i hear it on forvo at least). I've never had an issue when pronouncing 'eu' was mistaken for an open O, it was really the other way around and that wasn't in every instance. And maybe it's just me but every instance I find of, say, peau vs pot, seau vs sors sound the same to me (with a closed O). I have some clips in my previous post if you wanna lsiten for examples of my oe and open O. A feedback I get quite often is that my open O sounds very quebecois, if that means anything (i get that comment in general about my accent, even though i'm aiming to learn france french)


 I don't find it necessarily bad if your open o is close to closed o.  There are few minimal pairs, and both are clearly o sounds.  If you pronounce well the closed o in _beau, peau_ then just work on dropping the jaw and rounding your lips as much as possible.  This way even if you don't hear the difference at least you will pronounce it.  I'm not sure how caught and cot have merged in your dialect, but it might be that you don't have an open o anymore in your speech.  I know Californians pronounce them with unrounded lips and an a type vowel.  The Québécois sound to me like their open o is more closed and sometimes long even.
However, bringing o forward in the mouth towards eu is something to avoid.  It will cause a lot of confusion when people try to understand you.  You really must distinguish words like _sort _and _soeur_.  There are lots of minimum pairs here. Make sure to keep one in the front and the other in the back.  Although they are both open with rounded lips.


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## Zec

After listening to your examples (not a native, but a long time learner of French nonetheless), I'd say the problem isn't with /œ/, but that your /ɔ/ is 1. too fronted and 2. too unrounded.

Both are a natural consequence of your native English sound system (together with the more closed /ɔ/ before /r/) - your accent sounds pretty good in general (to me at least) and with enough practice it'll be perfect.

The best try was _téléphone_. Others were in general too fronted, while _grelotte_ and _poirotte_ were back but too unrounded (close to English "cut").


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## berndf

Zec said:


> 2. too unrounded.


This is the main issue.


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## clamor

Swatters said:


> There's a well documented tendency to front /ɔ/ in current French, but yours are sometimes _too_ fronted, yes. Your /œ/ sounds good except in _feuille _where it's both too high and not rounded enough, trending toward [e].



@cetait  Well -- it is true. French /ɔ/ is not in general a _back_ vowel. It is realized as a somewhat fronter [ɔ̟], and it can even be unrounded in certain regions (thus being similar to General American /ʌ/).
Moreover /œ/ is somewhat backed, as are generally the front unrounded vowels. It is generally realized as [œ̈]

I don't know if it is helpful, but at least you can better understand why you confuse both


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## jekoh

berndf said:


> [fɔt]. That is how _faute _is pronounced with a southern French accent whereas standard French is [fot].


[fɔt] is also fairly common in Northern France, as are [gɔʃ] or [kɔt] (for _côte_).


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## berndf

jekoh said:


> [fɔt] is also fairly common in Northern France, as are [gɔʃ] or [kɔt] (for _côte_).


I cannot recall a single time having heard [gɔʃ] where I live except from a colleague from Nice. And where I am living isn't even "north".


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## jekoh

berndf said:


> And where I am living isn't even "north".


How is it relevant then? 
It's not common where you live, but it is here in Northern France.


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## berndf

jekoh said:


> How is it relevant then?
> It's not common where you live, but it is here in Northern France.


Ok, I thought your "north" was just a quick way to refer to "the rest of the country".


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## clamor

These pronunciations are typically heard in the ''Occitan South'' and the Hauts-de-France region (M. Avanzi).


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