# Pinyin: choice of the letter <x>



## cheshire

This is one big mystery about pinyin. Why does the letter "x" as in "xie-xie" ("謝謝") stand for the "sh" sound? (There are two "sh" sounding phonemes in Chinese, but here I'm referring to the more "metalic" "x" sound as opposed to the softer "sh" sound.)

上海　*sh*ang-hai
謝謝　*x*ie-*x*ie

"ch" in German corresponds to Arabic " خ" and Chinese "h," (as in "he" "和"). While the former two languages use the letter "x" or "kh" to express the pronunciation, only Chinese seems to have chosen the letter "h" to express the same pronunciation.

This is just my thought, but did the person who devised the pinyin system pick the letter because he had "*X*avier" in mind? (Francisco Xavier)

Why did he pick out that letter? What did he base upon?


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## DrLindenbrock

Don't know, but other languages (e.g. Maltese, Catalan) use the X for that purpose too (although not in all words, but this is another matter).
And in some romanization systems of Persian, x = خ (like Spanish jota).
And what about the sounds the letter C is used to represent all over the world.

As the end, I think that a letter is just a conventional symbol, so if you agree that in your language a given letter has a given sounds, then that's fine.

One more example: in Hungarian the letter S stands for the English /sh/ sound. The English /s/ sound is spelled SZ...why? I don't know!

Anyway, sorry for not answering your question directly 
I hope somebody else will be able to!


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## Qcumber

They borrowed it from the Portuguese transcriptions of Chinese by the Jesuits of Macao. It's a very clever solution, so the Chinese creators of pinyin endorsed it.


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## cheshire

DrLinden, you have a very reasonable account there! You could persuade Persepone to come back to this world!

Qcumber, that's it! Francisco Xavier is Jesuit, you know. I've got a clue there!


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## Qcumber

cheshire said:


> DrLinden, you have a very reasonable account there! You could persuade Persepone to come back to this world!
> Qcumber, that's it! Francisco Xavier is Jesuit, you know. I've got a clue there!


Indeed. Probablythe best example.
 He was a Jesuit. He's been dead for long time.


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## palomnik

I might be mistaken, but I believe that Pinyin was developed by Russian linguists, not Chinese ones.

Even so, that still doesn't explain the use of "x" in Pinyin.  Actually, I don't think it sounds like English (or Catalan) "sh" at all.  It's a distinct sound that I have never heard in any other language, and no doubt "x" was used to express it since it was not used for anything else in the transcription system - rather like "q" is used in Arabic transliterations for the uvular stop.


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## Qcumber

palomnik said:


> I might be mistaken, but I believe that Pinyin was developed by Russian linguists, not Chinese ones.
> 
> Even so, that still doesn't explain the use of "x" in Pinyin. Actually, I don't think it sounds like English (or Catalan) "sh" at all. It's a distinct sound that I have never heard in any other language, and no doubt "x" was used to express it since it was not used for anything else in the transcription system - rather like "q" is used in Arabic transliterations for the uvular stop.


 
I didn't know that.

The English translation of the official report in Chinese (1957 ? 1967 ?) had a long passage on the alphabetisation of Chinese and Indochinese languages by Roman Catholic missionaries. 

P.S. The arabic letter qaaf and the Latin letter q have the same origin. In Greek, Q was only used to represent the number 90. That's why IPA /q/ represents the AArabic phoneme. 

It also dealt with the Cyrillic transcription invented by Russian linguists for Mongol.

The authors also explained they mapped their phonemic system on the latin alphabet as best as they could, but a lot of conventions had to be involved. For example /p/ is represented by <b> and /ph/ by <p>. Initial <r> doesn't represent any of our /r/'s, but a sort of retroflex /z/, <q> doesn't represent /k/ or /q/, but a sort of retroflex /tS/, etc. 

I drew my information about <x> from this report, which I read a very long time ago. Although the Chinese phoneme was different from the Portuguese one, it was close enough to be convenient. 

Unless I am mistaken, Portuguese linguists transcribed the name of Japan as Xipon [Si'pon], cf. Chin. Ri4ben3. The Spaniards borrowed it from the Portuguese, but respelled it Japón [Za'pon]. The pronunciation of Spanish evolved, and Japón is now pronounced [xa'pon]. Meanwhile other European nation borrowed the Spanish version from written sources, and pronounced it their own way, e.g. French Japon [Za'põ].


P.S. The Arabic letter qaaf, that represents the phoneme /q/, and the Latin letter Q have the same origin. In Greek it was only used to represent the number 90.


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> Unless I am mistaken, Portuguese linguists transcribed the name of Japan as Xipon [Si'pon], cf. Chin. Ri4ben3. The Spaniards borrowed it from the Portuguese, but respelled it Japón [Za'pon]. The pronunciation of Spanish evolved, and Japón is now pronounced [xa'pon]. Meanwhile other European nation borrowed the Spanish version from written sources, and pronounced it their own way, e.g. French Japon [Za'põ].


The Portuguese word for Japan is _Japão_ (possibly _Japam_ or _Japom_ in older texts). The older name _Cipango_ (used by Marco Polo, I think) may also appear in old texts, but I have never seen _Xipon_.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> The Portuguese word for Japan is _Japão_ (possibly _Japam_ or _Japom_ in older texts). The older name _Cipango_ (used by Marco Polo, I think) may also appear in old texts, but I have never seen _Xipon_.


 
Outsider, the best reference I have for it is:
Captain Diego de Artieda (1573)
Relation of the Western Islands called Filipinas
[translated from Spanish]

Blair & Robertson (1903-1909)
The Philippine Islands
3:204
"Farther north than the aforesaid islands are others, the nearest to Luzon being called *Xipon* [S:Japan]. We have not seen this island [...]"

The author doesn't say where he took this toponym, but it is obvious his source was Portuguese.

I have seen other occurrences of Xipon. Unfortunately I have no note on them. Sorry.


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## Outsider

So, a Spanish author once used the spelling _Xipon_. That does not convince me that:

- _Xipon_ was ever used in Portuguese.
- or, if used, that it was ever common.


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> So, a Spanish author once used the spelling _Xipon_. That does not convince me that:
> 
> - _Xipon_ was ever used in Portuguese.
> - or, if used, that it was ever common.


 
The problem is not whether it was common in Portugal, but whether it was common among the Europeans in the Far-East in the 16th century. 

The Spanish author didn't invent the toponym. It already existed, and the Spaniards didn't sail to Japan until long after the Portuguese, by the end of the 16th century. All the documents about Japan available in Manila (Philippines) during that period came from Macao, a Portuguese enclave in China. The toponyms the Macao Portuguese used were the Chinese ones, but pronounced their own way and transcribed accordingly.


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## eastlife

come one guys, "x" is way different from "sh". Do you feel the difference?


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## Frank06

Hi,


eastlife said:


> come one guys, "x" is way different from "sh". Do you feel the difference?


This article can be helpful: *A Dialogue Concerning the 'Russian-Cyrillic Origin' of Certain Pinyin Letters,** 'Accuracy' of Romanisations, 'Dialect-Bridges', and other Myths*.
It also talks about the x/sh thing (middle of the article).

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Aoyama

> come one guys, *"x"* is way different from *"sh".* Do*n't* you feel the difference?


That is very true and that is why the old transcription adopted by the _*French Jesuits* _in the 19th century (called l'Ecole de Saigon) was *hs* (not sh). This writing is still used in Taiwan and Hong-Kong (for old transcriptions, prior to the wide use of pin yin).


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## Qcumber

eastlife said:


> come one guys, "x" is way different from "sh". Do you feel the difference?


 
Of course.  The choice of the letters is conventional.
For instance the Greek letter χ is represented by the digraph <ch> in the Latin transcription. Nobody would seriously suggest it was chosen because the Greek letter represented the phoneme /tS/. 

Thank you, Frank06, for the illuminating dialogue.


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## Outsider

eastlife said:


> come one guys, "x" is way different from "sh". Do you feel the difference?


The Chinese "x" sound does not exist in most European languages, and both of them are voiceless sibilants with a similar place of articulation, so it's not at all surprising that they be confused.


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## Lugubert

Outsider said:


> The Chinese "x" sound does not exist in most European languages, and both of them are voiceless sibilants with a similar place of articulation, so it's not at all surprising that they be confused.


As I perceive it, the Pinyin x corresponds quite nicely to the German 'ich' sound and the Swedish initial of 'tjata', 'kär', and others; very different (to us) from the sh of Swedish words like for example 'skön' and  'skjuta' (which two by the way have an alternative pronunciation that to the best of my knowledge isn't found in any other language, written in the IPA as the 'hook-topped heng').

I find it very clever from the Russians? and/or Chinese who created the Pinyin system to use the letters x and q, normally not in very much use, for sounds not esaily related to the Latin alphabet. I also appreciate their consistent use of -h to indicate a retroflexive sound, as in -ch- and  -zh-.

It's interesting that those retroflexives seem to be very rare. The retroflex t, d, n, s sounds are, as far as I know, only found in certain Indian languages, Norwegian and Swedish. Our retroflex s makes a nice Pinyin si.

It's late, and I'm slightly WUI (writing under the influence), so I'll just wait for comments.


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## Outsider

Lugubert said:


> As I perceive it, the Pinyin x corresponds quite nicely to the German 'ich' sound and the Swedish initial of 'tjata', 'kär', and others; very different (to us) from the sh of Swedish words like for example 'skön' and  'skjuta' (which two by the way have an alternative pronunciation that to the best of my knowledge isn't found in any other language, written in the IPA as the 'hook-topped heng').


If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the Chinese (pinyin) 'x' is a voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative, while the Ich-laut of standard German is a voiceless palatal fricative. The Chinese sound does seem to exist in Swedish.



Lugubert said:


> I find it very clever from the Russians? and/or Chinese who created the Pinyin system to use the letters x and q, normally not in very much use, for sounds not esaily related to the Latin alphabet. I also appreciate their consistent use of -h to indicate a retroflexive sound, as in -ch- and  -zh-.


I agree.


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## Leopold

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> This article can be helpful: *A Dialogue Concerning the 'Russian-Cyrillic Origin' of Certain Pinyin Letters,** 'Accuracy' of Romanisations, 'Dialect-Bridges', and other Myths*.
> It also talks about the x/sh thing (middle of the article).
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank



Very interesting. But who's the interviewed?



Lugubert said:


> As I perceive it, the Pinyin x corresponds quite nicely to the German 'ich' sound and the Swedish initial of 'tjata', 'kär', and others; very different (to us) from the sh of Swedish words like for example 'skön' and  'skjuta' (which two by the way have an alternative pronunciation that to the best of my knowledge isn't found in any other language, written in the IPA as the 'hook-topped heng').
> 
> 
> It's interesting that those retroflexives seem to be very rare. The retroflex t, d, n, s sounds are, as far as I know, only found in certain Indian languages, Norwegian and Swedish. Our retroflex s makes a nice Pinyin si.
> 
> It's late, and I'm slightly WUI (writing under the influence), so I'll just wait for comments.



I'm also studying some Norwegian and I've also found the pinyin x to be pretty similar to some norsk sound, I can't remember... maybe it was "tjue".

On the other hand, the first time I heard retroflex consonants was when I first heard Sardinian. They even have double retroflexes! Check it out. ; ）



Outsider said:


> If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the Chinese (pinyin) 'x' is a voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative, while the Ich-laut of standard German is a voiceless palatal fricative. The Chinese sound does seem to exist in Swedish.



According to my Integrated Chinese (中文听说读写) Level 1 Part 1 (Tao-chung Yao and  Yuehua Liu, Cheng & Tsui Company, 2005) the pinyin 'x' is a voiceless palatal fricative.


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## Lugubert

Outsider said:


> If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the Chinese (pinyin) 'x' is a voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative, while the Ich-laut of standard German is a voiceless palatal fricative. The Chinese sound does seem to exist in Swedish.
> 
> I agree.


 


			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> According to my Integrated Chinese (中文听说读写) Level 1 Part 1 (Tao-chung Yao and Yuehua Liu, Cheng & Tsui Company, 2005) the pinyin 'x' is a voiceless palatal fricative.


 
One explanations of Wikipedia's view may be that some sources use the IPA sign for the alveolo-palatal variety, but clearly describe it as palatal, contrasting with alveolo-palatal sounds, for example Kratochvil: The Chinese Language Today. I hear no difference at all between the respective x/ch/tj sounds.


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## Namakemono

Galician also uses "x" for the "sh" sound.


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