# Persian: فرهنگ یک جلدی پیشرو آریان پور



## seitt

Greetings,

This is the name of my one-volume Āryānpur Progressive Persian-English Dictionary.

I prefer to write it like this:فرهنگ یک‌جلدی پیشرو آریان‌پور​ 
I have not changed any of the letters (I hope!), but I have put some words together using نیم‌فاصله. Are you happy about how I have written it?

Also, very importantly, should there be a written kasre after پیشرو?

My impression is that if we pronounce the last letter of پیشرو as a long O there should be an unwritten kasre pronounced 'e', but if we pronounce it as a short O (as happens in Colloquial Persian) then we should add a written kasre pronounced 'ye'.

But am I right?

Best wishes, and many thanks,

Simon


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## searcher123

> I have not changed any of the letters (I hope!), but I have put some  words together using نیم‌فاصله. Are you happy about how I have written  it?


I prefer to write as you too, but no problem if you put a space between يك and جلدي.



> My impression is that if we pronounce the last letter of پیشرو as a long  O there should be an unwritten kasre pronounced 'e', but if we  pronounce it as a short O (as happens in Colloquial Persian) then we  should add a written kasre pronounced 'ye'.
> 
> But am I right?


Yes, you are. Some people will pronounce it as "Pishroye" and many other people (that are in majority) will pronounce it as "Pishroe".


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## Qureshpor

^ What about "piishrav-e"?


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## seitt

Many thanks, excellent.

Frankly, "pishrav-e" didn't even enter my mind as it seems totally wrong, but let's wait to see what Morteza says.


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## Qureshpor

seitt said:


> Many thanks, excellent.
> 
> Frankly, "pishrav-e" didn't even enter my mind as it seems totally wrong, but let's wait to see what Morteza says.



Yes, we shall wait for Morteza. But on what basis does it sound totally wrong?


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## seitt

Because in the verb 'raftan' and, as far as I know, all present stems in -av-, the last syllable of any form in which و is the last letter has to be pronounced with a short 'O'. So, imperatives are formed like this: برو boro = go!, بدو bodo = run!/hurry!, بجو bojo = chew! etc. (In Literary Persian the first syllables were pronounced 'be' rather than 'bo'.)

The same applies to short verb foms at the end of compounds.


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## Qureshpor

^ True and in Classical Persian the "av" is "au" (a dipthong), as in "shau" (become/go), "birau" (go). However, when the "au" is followed by a vowel, as far as my understanding goes, the dipthong changes to a vowel + consonant , i.e "av"..

mii-shavam, mii-ravam (Modern pronunciation). On this logic I thought we might get "piishrav-e-X"


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## searcher123

seitt said:


> Many thanks, excellent.
> 
> Frankly, "pishrav-e" didn't even enter my mind as it seems totally wrong, but let's wait to see what Morteza says.



I'm agree with you too. It is completely wrong in modern Persian.


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## searcher123

seitt said:


> (...)بجو bojo = chew! etc. (In Literary Persian the first syllables were pronounced 'be' rather than 'bo'.)(...)



I have not heard "Bojo" to now. It is "Bejo" in modern Persian.


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## Qureshpor

searcher123 said:


> I'm agree with you too. It is completely wrong in modern Persian.



Can you please offer an explanation in light of my reply to Simon.


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## searcher123

QURESHPOR said:


> Can you please offer an explanation in light of my reply to Simon.



As you now, unfortunately my knowledge about classic Persian is unpredictable. In modern Persian I'm agree with *Simon* description. At the present all of us are pronouncing even classic poems as the same that *Simon* explained.


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## seitt

To Morteza:
Many thanks for correcting "Bojo" to "Bejo" - this is actually very important as it indicates that the change of "be" to "bo" in front of another O doesn't always apply. Presumably it only happens in frequently-used infinitives - I'm always hearing "boro" and "bodo" on TV.

To *QURESHPOR*:


> True and in Classical Persian the "av" is "au" (a dipthong), as in "shau" (become/go), "birau" (go). However, when the "au" is followed by a vowel, as far as my understanding goes, the dipthong changes to a vowel + consonant , i.e "av"..
> mii-shavam, mii-ravam (Modern pronunciation). On this logic I thought we might get "piishrav-e-X"


Actually I think that your reasoning is completely sound (of course, your pronunciation is that of Dari and Classical Persian rather than Modern Iranian Persian) – it's just that, for some reason, for the purposes you mention, the kasre is treated as a separate word rather than an added syllable.


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## Qureshpor

seitt said:


> Actually I think that your reasoning is completely sound (of course, your pronunciation is that of Dari and Classical Persian rather than Modern Iranian Persian) – it's just that, for some reason, for the purposes you mention, the kasre is treated as a separate word rather than an added syllable.



Simon, it is completely possible that my understanding is faulty.

Regarding Dari/Classical Persian pronunciation, even for Modern (non-colloquial) Persian, the root for raftan is "rau" (dipthong) which becomes "rav" as in "beraviid" (go!)


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## seitt

Please see http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2411845 and apply my "Now, Rose, no ruse!" dictum.

What I mean is that 'au' (as in 'how now brown cow') in Dari/Afghan Persian/Classical Persian is 'ou' ('ow' as in 'bowtie' or 'no') in Modern Iranian Persian.

This is, however, further complicated by a tendency to shorten the 'ou' into a short 'o' in colloquial speech.


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## Qureshpor

seitt said:


> Please see http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2411845 and apply my "Now, Rose, no ruse!" dictum.
> 
> What I mean is that 'au' (as in 'how now brown cow') in Dari/Afghan Persian/Classical Persian is 'ou' ('ow' as in 'bowtie' or 'no') in Modern Iranian Persian.
> 
> This is, however, further complicated by a tendency to shorten the 'ou' into a short 'o' in colloquial speech.



Thank you Simon for the link. I have had the pleasure of spending a few years with Iranians from Tehran and as a consequence, I am fully aware of the modern vowel pronunciations and other grammatical matters.

My point, I believe still stands since however the vowel (au) may be pronounced in the modern language, I am suggesting that it ends up as "av" in the situation I have mentioned in my earlier post. As I have stated it is quite possible my understanding concerning piishrau/piishro going to piishrav-e-x (after an izaafat) is incorrect.


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## seitt

I think the point is that the rule you mention is now a dead rule and applies only in cases established in the history of the language.

You will, no doubt, have noticed your Tehran friends’ tendency to pronounce the plural ending ‘hā’ as ‘ā’.

If the rule were still a living rule, they would be obliged to pronounce the colloquial plural of a word like “parto” (ray) as “partavā” – but this is not the case: they simply don't do this.


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