# 時には vs 時は



## Shenrais

Hello everyone,

my question was regarding the difference between these two.
For example:

寿司を食べる時には お箸は使わなくてもいい。
and the very common
テレビアニメを見るときは部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。

If I were to replace the particles for 寿司を食べる時は  or テレビアニメを見るときには, what exactly would be changed nuance wise? Both sound the same to me, but clearly there is a difference. Thanks in advance.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I don't think there is  a difference.
They are just the same.


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## Shenrais

Thank you very much


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## Dr. Fumbles

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I don't think there is  a difference.
> They are just the same.


I wanted to see if I could find any answers make sense to my English-speaking brain.
And I found an answer that works to convey a similar feeling in English as in Japanese.
To find what I'm quoting: look up "yesjapan toki ni", the quesiton is: "Is NI needed after TOKI?".

According to the teacher, Yuki, "toki" just means "when" but "toki ni" means "it is when".

Here are the examples given:
かいものを するとき、 いつも ともだちと いっしょです。
(KAIMONO O SURU TOKI, ITSUMO TOMODACHI TO ISSHO DESU = When I shop, I am always with my friend)

かいものを するとき*に*、いつも ともだちと いっしょです。
（KIMONO O SURU TOKI *NI*, ITSUMO TOMODACHI TO ISSHO DESU = *It is when I shop* that I am with my friend)


So, with this in mind, I think this is how we can translate each statement:
(Also, please keep in mind that I'm using "rough" translations to make statements that sound natural in English.)

寿司を食べる時には お箸は使わなくてもいい。
You don't need to use chopsticks whenever you eat sushi.

テレビアニメを見るときは部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。
Please brighten the room when you watch TV anime; and please try to get used to watching TV.
(Of course, if I have misunderstood any part, then please correct me.)

Hopefully my translations are good.
The main point is that "toki ni" is more like "it is when/whenever"
But, just plain "toki" is "when".


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Dr. Fumbles said:


> According to the teacher, Yuki, "toki" just means "when" but "toki ni" means "it is when".
> 
> Here are the examples given:
> かいものを するとき、 いつも ともだちと いっしょです。
> (KAIMONO O SURU TOKI, ITSUMO TOMODACHI TO ISSHO DESU = When I shop, I am always with my friend)
> 
> かいものを するとき*に*、いつも ともだちと いっしょです。
> （KIMONO O SURU TOKI *NI*, ITSUMO TOMODACHI TO ISSHO DESU = *It is when I shop* that I am with my friend)



I cannot help thinking that Yuki was too maniac.
They were thinking too much and the logic became just weird to my brain.
It would be more easy and comfortable that the two expressions are just the same in this context, and they are interchangeable here.

Only one big difference is that  時 can be a noun, but 時に or 時には cannot.
And 時に can be used as "sometimes" in some contexts.

In this context, they are not nouns nor "sometimes." So there is no difference.
The textbook's or her explanation just confused it, I think.






Dr. Fumbles said:


> 寿司を食べる時*には* お箸は使わなくてもいい。
> =You don't need to use chopsticks whenever you eat sushi.
> =寿司を食べる時*は *お箸は使わなくてもいい。
> =寿司を食べる時 お箸は使わなくてもいい。
> テレビアニメを見るとき*は*部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。
> =Please brighten the room when you watch TV anime; and please try to get used to watching TV.
> =テレビアニメを見るとき*には*部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。
> =テレビアニメを見るとき、部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

@#4:
Your English brain-wise, it might be better to think that the function of "ni" is "in/at."

toki=when, the time
toki ni = in/at when, in/at the time

寿司を食べる時、お箸はつかわなくてもいい。You don't need to use chopsticks when you eat sushi.
寿司を食べる時*に*、お箸はつかわなくてもいい。You don't need to use chopsticks *at *the time/situation/occasion you eat sushi.

"I walked this morning."
"I walked *in* this morning." This is unnatural in English, right?  I have to remember that "in the morning" is natural but "in this morning" is unnatural, but "this morning," right?
"In the morning today" might be better than "in this morning" although it sounds wordy?


今朝散歩した。This is natural in Japanese.
今朝*に*散歩した。 This is unnatural in Japanese, too. However, if you insist to use this expression, it might be more like, "It was this morning when I walked" or something like that.
This explanation is possible in special cases like "今朝に＊＊＊した。"

You have to remember that in case of 今朝, just 今朝 is natural and 今朝に is unnatural or has some special intention.
But in cases of this thread's original sentences, they are just the same.
It depends on the context.


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## maruha7

I agree with SoLaTiDoberman that 時に and 時には is pretty much the same meaning. I just have a feeling that 時には puts more emphasis on the situation than 時に。

In terms of the example sentence
寿司を食べる時には お箸は使わなくてもいい。

Since 時には puts emphasis on the situation (which is when eating sushi) , the sentence implies that there are cases when you "do" have to use chopsticks.

Whereas if you write
寿司を食べる時は お箸は使わなくてもいい。

This explains just the fact that You don't need to use chopsticks when you eat sushi.



I also want to point out that although this is not directly related to question in this thread,




Dr. Fumbles said:


> テレビアニメを見るときは部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。
> Please brighten the room when you watch TV anime; and please try to get used to watching TV.
> (Of course, if I have misunderstood any part, then please correct me.)



This translation for the sentence after the comma is wrong. 

The verb for the following sentence 

テレビからはなれて見てください。

is はなれて not なれて

Therefore the translation for the 
テレビアニメを見るときは部屋を明るくして、テレビからはなれて見てください。

would be

Please keep the lights when you watch TV anime; and keep a distance from the tv.


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## Shenrais

Thank you all for your responses, helped a lot.


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## Flaminius

Nouns of time without case markers function as adverbial heads, but some of them, like _toki_, can use case markers too.  Another example is: その写真家と会った日(に)、私彼の写真集を買った。

English-wise, _on tomorrow_ and _on yesterday_ are possible, albeit reginal and not for writing.

Having said that, it is also noteworthy that a _ni_-marked head lends itself naturally to more specific actions.  While
彼と会った日、私の体調は最悪だった。
is perfectly natural, it is quite awkward to say the same with _-ni_.


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## Dr. Fumbles

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> @#4:
> Your English brain-wise, it might be better to think that the function of "ni" is "in/at."
> 
> toki=when, the time
> toki ni = in/at when, in/at the time
> 
> 寿司を食べる時、お箸はつかわなくてもいい。You don't need to use chopsticks when you eat sushi.
> 寿司を食べる時*に*、お箸はつかわなくてもいい。You don't need to use chopsticks *at *the time/situation/occasion you eat sushi.



Ooh!  That works even better!
"Whenever" was the best I could think of at the time.
Thank you very much and thanks to everyone else because all of your responses have helped clarify this statement for me.

One day, I'll be able to reply in Japanese.  I tried that one time and I had to translate most of it.
So, keep up the good work everyone, がんばってよ！


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