# die geschlossene Form



## Löwenfrau

Context:

"Aber die geschlossene Form der neuen Disziplin (he is talking about Baumgarten's Aesthetica) hatte es dem systematischen deutschen Geiste angetan, und Kant, der in seiner vorkritischen Zeit überhaupt oft die Bücher Baumgartens zu Grundlagen seiner Vorlesungen machte, übernahm nach einigem Schwanken den Begriff _Ästhetik_ und führte ihn mit seinem ganzen Ansehen in die philosophischen Wissenschaften ein." Mauthner 

Is it correct to understand the expression as "the finished form" or "the definite/defined form"...?


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## Schimmelreiter

_​the conclusive form_


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> _​the conclusive form_



I was searching at linguee.com and the examples with "conclusive" use it in the sense of "definite", which in Port. is "definitivo", as in "conclusive evidence". But I thought about it for a while and now I think this is not appropriate. Baumgarten's Aesthetica is not "irrefutable", "definite", "final", "conclusive". I don't know the best English term for that, but in Portuguese we say "pronto e acabado" (ready and finished, fertig und bereit - but our use is broader than the German and applies to this context, I think).
I think he means that Baumgarten's Aesthetica is self-sufficient, complete, it has a final _form_ - but to say it is final in its content, or irrefutable, conclusive, would be too much.


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## Schimmelreiter

As





Löwenfrau said:


> *die **geschlossene** Form* der neuen Disziplin [...] *hatte es dem systematischen deutschen Geiste angetan*,


I thought that what a *systematic* mind *liked*, was something that was *in sich schlüssig*. *> ​conclusive


*_schließen - geschlossen - schlüssig - claudere - conclusive_


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> AsI thought that what a *systematic* mind *liked*, was something that was *in sich schlüssig*. *> ​conclusive*




I understand your reasoning, but I am really not sure this word in English with this meaning. I would read conclusive as irrefutable. Self-referent, self-dependent, coherent, etc., might work better, with no ambiguities. And why not the word "closed"? In Portuguese we can say that, "forma fechada do sistema" = the closed form of the system (it is self-dependent, self-sufficient, not open to changes, which does not mean it can't be refuted).


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## Löwenfrau

Löwenfrau said:


> I understand your reasoning, but I am really not sure this word in English can be used in this sense. I would read 'conclusive' as 'irrefutable', 'definite'. 'Self-referent', 'self-dependent', 'coherent', etc., might work better, with no ambiguities. And why not just a literal 'closed'? In Portuguese we can say that, "forma fechada do sistema" = closed form of the system (it is self-dependent, self-sufficient, not open to changes, which does not mean it can't be refuted).


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## Schimmelreiter

I call a doctrine or theory conclusive if it logically and consistently builds upon its premises.


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## Hutschi

I think "geschlossene Form" is here the contrary to "offene Form".

I do not think that it means complete but that it means that it there are well defined criteria to determine what is part and what is not part. 

I think "geschlossen" includes "restricted", "defined rules", avoiding areas with strange or unclear content.

Because it refers to the form, it is potentially possible to include all in a proper way.

If something s added it has to be inside of the form, and there will not be fuzzy parts "hanging out" of the theory.


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## Schimmelreiter

Hutschi said:


> I think "geschlossene Form" is here the contrary to "offene Form".
> 
> I do not think that it means complete but that it means that it there are well defined criteria to determine what is part and what is not part.
> 
> I think "geschlossen" includes "restricted", "defined rules", avoiding areas with strange or unclear content.
> 
> Because it refers to the form, it is potentially possible to include all in a proper way.
> 
> If something s added it has to be inside of the form, and there will not be fuzzy parts "hanging out" of the theory.


See what M. writes about the systematic mind that takes a liking to Baumgarten's oeuvre. He uses _geschlossen _in the sense of _systematisch/schlüssig/ein widerspruchsfreies Ganzes_, of which the opposite is _​unsystematisch._


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## wandle

The trouble with 'conclusive' in English, as *Löwenfrau* indicates, is that it means 'decisive' or 'irrefutable':  in other words, that the theory is incontrovertible, logically or empirically, which seems unlikely to be the point.

However, I am not clear in this case what the meaning really is. 

If the meaning is the form in which the theory was eventually established, I would translate as 'the settled form'.
If it is that the theory is consistent and complete in its own terms, I would suggest 'self-consistent' or 'self-contained'.
If it is that the theory is complete and thorough in objective terms, I would suggest 'definitive' or perhaps 'comprehensive'.


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## Löwenfrau

> If it is that the theory is consistent and complete in its own terms, I would suggest 'self-consistent' or 'self-contained'.



This is close to my reading. 

I would like to hear why not render it literally as "closed". You are probably acquainted with the concepts of "open theory" and "closed theory". 

Hutschi: 





> I think "geschlossene Form" is here the contrary to "offene Form".



The closed form of the discipline...


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## bearded

In the word 'conclusive' I feel a peremptory meaning of 'final, admitting no further additions', which doesn't appear suitable to me.
I would propose ''concluded'':   _the concluded form of the new discipline..
_'Concluded' means both self-consistent/self-contained and 'having reached  conclusions' (halfway between 'closed' and 'complete in its own terms').


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## wandle

bearded man said:


> _the concluded form of the new discipline.._


This is not how the term is used, though.
As a matter of grammar (or idiom), we would not put 'concluded' in that attributive position; but even in a predicative position, it is semantically wrong.  

We say, for example, _'Now that our business is concluded, let us adjourn to the pub'_. 

To express the form in which a discipline is finally organised, we would say the 'settled' form of the discipline.
With similar intent, we could say the 'final' form, except that this is stronger: unlike 'settled', it suggests no change could later occur.


Löwenfrau said:


> I would like to hear why not render it literally as "closed". .


As far as I know, 'closed theory' and 'closed form' are mathematical concepts. I have not met them applied to theories in other disciplines.


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## Hutschi

wandle said:


> ...
> As far as I know, 'closed theory' and 'closed form' are mathematical concepts. I have not met them applied to theories in other disciplines.



I see as important that they give there



> In poetry analysis, a type of poetry that exhibits regular structure, such as meter or a rhyming pattern;



This is used as contrary to "open form", and I see not so much difference to a philosophical interpretation.

I still think it means 





> "geschlossen" includes "restricted", "defined rules", avoiding areas with strange or unclear content.


 as I mentioned above. This includes Schimmelreiter's "conclusive" -- "I call a doctrine or theory conclusive if it logically and consistently builds upon its premises." But it is more (at least in my mind) because it also includes the premises themselves. It includes traditional structures, this means it may change when traditional sructures change.


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## wandle

Hutschi said:


> This is used as contrary to "open form", and I see not so much difference to a philosophical interpretation.


The difference is that 'closed form' is not used, as far as I know, outside those specific technical senses. Can you offer any examples?


> "geschlossen" includes "restricted", "defined rules", avoiding areas with strange or unclear content.
> 
> 
> 
> I still think it means  as I mentioned above.
> This includes Schimmelreiter's "conclusive" -- "I call a doctrine or theory conclusive if it logically and consistently builds upon its premises." But it is more (at least in my mind) because it also includes the premises themselves. It includes traditional structures, this means it may change when traditional sructures change.
Click to expand...

For that sense, the term would be 'self-consistent', or simply 'consistent'.


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## Schimmelreiter

wandle said:


> consistent


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## Hutschi

Hi, it also means consistent, but this is not enough. An open form may also be consistent.

I think it means consistent+restricted to a certain area+complete in structure, content may be incomplete.


Consistent may also refer to a subset or to a much larger set than given in the context.
The term is too general in one sense (set) and too restricted in another (word definition).

Or are "consistent" and "konsistent" false friends? In this case I'd agree, and take "geschlossene Form" == "consistent" as definition.


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## wandle

Those comments sound as if they refer to mathematics. 'Consistent' includes the mathematical sense, but others besides.

Chambers' English Dictionary (1990) gives the following meanings:


> fixed; not fluid; agreeing together, compatible; free from self-contradiction; true to principles.


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## Hutschi

One additional aspect:

Geschlossene Form - it is closed in the sense that there is no change of form expected, may be some content may change.

In poetry Limericks, Sonetts, Haiku are examples for "Geschlossene Form".
Free verse (verse libre) is an example for open forms.

I understand it as  "finished form" and "definite/defined form" and "consistent and systematic form". (The last is Mauthner's example.) - Content may be extented in this form, but not the form itself - because it is closed.


I found a source: http://books.google.de/books?id=6KJFpBYgqTQC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=philosophie+geschlossene+Form
Ralph Kray/Kay Luers-Kaiser "Geschlossene Formen"

In the preface they also mention that the form itself becomes norm. My interpretation; in a certain sense "geschlossene Form" and "Form" are synonymes.  "Offene Form" contradicts "Form" in a certain sense.


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## wandle

> Aber die geschlossene Form der neuen Disziplin hatte es dem systematischen deutschen Geiste angetan


Is this comparing a closed form to an open form? 
To me it seems Mauthner is saying 'the self-consistent (or 'logical') character of the new discipline' is what appealed to the systematic German mind.


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## Hutschi

I think so. Nicht die offene Form=Formlosigkeit, sondern die geschlossene Form=normierte Form/feste Form.

But it may be you are right. I do not think it is a contradiction, however. 

In my mind I think it is 'the self-consistent (or 'logical') character of the new discipline'+"completeness"+ fitting to fixed form principles.

Compare:
Russel and Whitehead tried to establish this kind for mathematics, but the found contradictions essential for usage of this principle in mathematics.

The same happened with logic. Aristoteles followed this principle, and Frege tried to establish it, and found it is not possible.

But during the whole 19th century the scientists searched for such systems.

In physics Newton's mechanic seemed to follow it - but Michelson showed flaws in the system.

None of the closed systems survived at the end.

Even Euklid's geometry, the classical system in this regard was found to be open in the end.

But closed systems are (simplified) models in the end. So they are useful, nevertheless.


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## Hutschi

PS: Mauthner lived in the time when the most of closed forms broke down.


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## wandle

It would make sense to say 'the closed character of the new discipline': provided that contrast between open and closed systems had been made clear in the context.


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## Löwenfrau

wandle said:


> It would make sense to say 'the closed character of the new discipline': provided that contrast between open and closed systems had been made clear in the context.



But Mauthner himself doesn't make that clear. Maybe we have some idiosyncrasies because I am thinking in Portuguese: at least in Brazil the word "fechado" (closed) applied to a form, a discipline, a system, a theory, does not have to refer to a great range of concepts, it is just very idiomatic and fits the idea of 'systematicity', which is Mauthner's point here.

If we had found this word all alone: geschlossene. And we were to render it into English in its most 'synonymal' and abstract sense. There is no doubt we would choose "closed".  I'm afraid that if I start to explain what he means by that, in a footnote for instance, or by rendering it in a more specific and less abstract word, I could be forcing the reading in certain directions that Mauthner himself could possibly not approve.


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## wandle

Löwenfrau said:


> If we had found this word all alone: geschlossene. And we were to render it into English in its most 'synonymal' and abstract sense. There is no doubt we would choose "closed".  I'm afraid that if I start to explain what he means by that, in a footnote for instance, or by rendering it in *a more specific and less abstract word,* I could be forcing the reading in certain directions that Mauthner himself could possibly not approve.


The problem is that the balance of the meanings is the other way round. In German, _geschlossen_ has a wide range of senses. 
In English, 'closed' is a narrower, more specific term. That is why, unless the context supports it, it is not suitable here.
In addition to that, the English 'form' makes the expression 'the closed form of the disciplline' more specific still: it could only make sense in contrast with 'the open form of the discipline'.


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## Löwenfrau

wandle said:


> The problem is that the balance of the meanings is the other way round. In German, _geschlossen_ has a wide range of senses.
> In English, 'closed' is a narrower, more specific term. That is why, unless the context supports it, it is not suitable here.
> In addition to that, the English 'form' makes the expression 'the closed form of the disciplline' more specific still: it could only make sense in contrast with 'the open form of the discipline'.



That is precisely my point: Port. "fechado" is not so specific as English "closed (form of the discipline)", but it has a wider range of meanings, as the German "geschlossene".

The Portuguese word for "closed" is more open.


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