# Slavic approximants before consonants



## Linnets

Hello, I noticed in some Slavic Languages there are approximants such as /j, w/ before consonants instead of vowels, as they are common in Romance or Germanic languages e.g. Czech _jsem_ /jsɛm/ or Polish _jabłko_ /ˈjab.wkɔ/. Personally, I find difficult to pronounce correctly those clusters and I tend to replace them with a short vowel [ı̆, ŭ], thus [[ı̆sɛm] and [ˈjabŭkɔ] (this is problematic since it violates the penultimate rule of Polish stress). What do you think about?


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## elroy

I’ve heard both [sɛm] and [ˈjabkɔ] by native speakers.  I’d say you can safely drop those approximates.


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## Linnets

So they're just etymological relics?


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## elroy

I think native speakers sometimes pronounce them if they’re trying to enunciate carefully.

Listen to the Forvo pronunciations of “jsem”:
jsem pronunciation: How to pronounce jsem in Czech, Esperanto

In the isolated word samples, two out of the three speakers include the /j/.  In the sentences, neither speaker does.  This suggests to me that the /j/ was included in those two samples because the speakers were focusing more than usual on the word.

Maybe I was wrong about “jabłko,” though: jabłko pronunciation: How to pronounce jabłko in Polish

All the speakers pronounce the <ł>, even in the sentences.  In most cases it’s vowelized.


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## Linnets

In any case, a [js] or [wk] ([ɫʷk] in old Polish pronunciation) cluster is pronunceable, right?


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## elroy

Yes, definitely!


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## elroy

elroy said:


> Maybe I was wrong about “jabłko,” though


Or maybe I wasn't!  Wiktionary gives the pronunciation without the approximant *first*, and then gives the one with the approximant and says it's *rare*.  This makes me suspect that the Forvo pronunciations are artificially over-enunciated (like the "jsem" ones in which the approximant is pronounced).


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## wyrzyk

['japkɔ] is normal, ['jabwkɔ~'jabukɔ] is just a spelling pronunciation. 

Final -ł after a consonant may also be deleted in informal speech, as in <szedł> /ʃɛdw~ʃɛt/.

However, that still leaves a few words like łza, łkać, łgać, łby where the ł can’t be ignored. But you are right that it doesn’t matter whether you think of it as a [w] or a very short non-syllabic “u”… (if there is even a difference).


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## Drakonica

Linnets said:


> In any case, a [js] or [wk] ([ɫʷk] in old Polish pronunciation) cluster is pronunceable, right?


They are both pronunceable in modern Polish
ary*js*ki, ampu*łk*a
and there are no aproximations.

We don't omnit sound in much more complex clusters:
*źdźbł*o, głu*pstw*o*,* *pstr*ąg

However, there is a group of words in which the colloquial pronunciation is simplified:
ja*błk*o -> ja*pk*o
sze*śćdz*iesiąt -> sze*śdz*iesiąt

Historically there were yers:
Yer - Wikipedia
Jer (głoska) – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
a very short vovels, which have disappeared.


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## Awwal12

Linnets said:


> Hello, I noticed in some Slavic Languages there are approximants such as /j, w/ before consonants instead of vowels


In Standard Russian [w]-like sounds occur only in very specific positions and only in fast casual speech (as a replacement of [və] between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, at least). South Russian dialects generally use labial semivowels as replacements of /v/, only between a vowel and a consonant or universally, i.e. basically in the manner opposite to the described by you.

/'V.iC/ combinations, on the other hand, often turn into /'VjC/ in speech and perception of many speakers of Standard Russian. Hence the atrocious misspellings "храбрые войны" (i.e. basically "brave wars" instead of "brave warriors"!), "андройд", "гуманойд", "астеройд" etc. However, Russian /j/ in such position is pretty lax to begin with, so no wonder these speakers mix it up with the reduced syllabic /i/.


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## pimlicodude

Awwal12 said:


> In Standard Russian [w]-like sounds occur only in very specific positions and only in fast casual speech (as a replacement of [və] between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, at least). South Russian dialects generally use labial semivowels as replacements of /v/, only between a vowel and a consonant or universally, i.e. basically in the manner opposite to the described by you.
> 
> /'V.iC/ combinations, on the other hand, often turn into /'VjC/ in speech and perception of many speakers of Standard Russian. Hence the atrocious misspellings "храбрые войны" (i.e. basically "brave wars" instead of "brave warriors"!), "андройд", "гуманойд", "астеройд" etc. However, Russian /j/ in such position is pretty lax to begin with, so no wonder these speakers mix it up with the reduced syllabic /i/.


Awwal12, can you tell the difference between войны and воины?


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## Awwal12

pimlicodude said:


> Awwal12, can you tell the difference between войны and воины?


Depending on who's speaking, I suppose?


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## Linnets

I think, at least theorically, войны is two syllables whereas воины is three syllables.


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## pimlicodude

Linnets said:


> I think, at least theorically, войны is two syllables whereas воины is three syllables.


forvo has great audio for both войны and воины, showing the difference.


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