# It seemed to the army to have been already won.



## Pugnator

Hello,
A my friend is writing a book and he needed help to translate this sentence into latin.  ( The original on Italian is  "All'esercito sembrò di essere già stato vinto" )
So I've  suggested to him:
"Exercitum sibi visus est victus esse"
Is it right ?


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## wtrmute

Let me understand the sentence a bit better.  Could I rewrite that (in English, still) as "the army understood that it had already won"?  Italian _essere stato + _participle looks to be a form of _plusquamperfectus_, right?  So the infinitive must be the perfect one, at least: _Exercitui visus est iam sese vicisse_, perhaps?


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## Lorenzogreen

Il verbo videor segue la costruzione personale, quindi la tua traduzione va bene!


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!


wtrmute said:


> Let me understand the sentence a bit better. Could I rewrite that (in English, still) as "the army understood that it had already won"? Italian _essere stato + _participle looks to be a form of _plusquamperfectus_, right? So the infinitive must be the perfect one, at least: _Exercitui visus est iam sese vicisse_, perhaps?


I don't think this will quite do as Latin, mainly because (unlike modern Italian - "un' esercito di prodi, da me guidato...": any music-lovers out there recognise the quotation?) Romans would hardly write _exercitus_ in such a context, rather they would use _milites_, but also because _Exercitui visus est iam sese vicisse_ is in itself ungrammatical: with _exercitui_ in the dative, _sese_ (reflexive pronoun) is just meaningless, and the masculine participle _visus_ has nothing to agree with.
_militibus visa est victoria iam relata esse_ would at least be grammatical - "To the troops, it appeared that victory had been already won". But even this is straining idiom. Better _militibus visum est hostes iam devinctos esse_, or something of the kind.
But I too remain unsure that this is what Pugnator wants us to translate.
Σ


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## Pugnator

Scholiast said:


> salvete omnes!
> 
> I don't think this will quite do as Latin, mainly because (unlike modern Italian - "un' esercito di prodi, da me guidato...": any music-lovers out there recognise the quotation?) Romans would hardly write _exercitus_ in such a context, rather they would use _milites_, but also because _Exercitui visus est iam sese vicisse_ is in itself ungrammatical: with _exercitui_ in the dative, _sese_ (reflexive pronoun) is just meaningless, and the masculine participle _visus_ has nothing to agree with.
> _militibus visa est victoria iam relata esse_ would at least be grammatical - "To the troops, it appeared that victory had been already won". But even this is straining idiom. Better _militibus visum est hostes iam devinctos esse_, or something of the kind.
> But I too remain unsure that this is what Pugnator wants us to translate.
> Σ


I don't know If I've wrote well but the Army isn't winning, they didn't lose yet but seemed to  them to have been already defeated. Lorenzogreen Said I've translated it correctly because I've used the personal construction of videor. So what do you think ?


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## Lorenzogreen

Sorry if I didn't write in english. Well I the verb videor in this case requires the personal construction. So it should be:
*Excercitus sibi visus est victus esse*


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## Scholiast

Lorenzogreen said:


> Sorry if I didn't write in english. Well I the verb videor in this case requires the personal construction. So it should be:
> *Excercitus sibi visus est victus est *


No-one has any reason to apologise for their English on this site: I'm sure our Moderators would agree that in the Latin Forum, as in classical scholarship generally, we trade in more or less every tongue.

But I am also so sorry to say, this [*Excercitus sibi visus est victus est] *is also not grammatically possible, at least in classical Latin. "Excercitus" is of course a pardonable mis-spelling for _exercitus_. But more importantly, just to make it grammatic, you'ld have to say (or write) _exercitus sibi visus est victus esse_.

That is now grammatically correct, but it still to me does not "feel" right.

Any chance of giving us, please, some wider context and explanation? Then of course everyone will do their best to help.

Σ


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## Pugnator

Scholiast said:


> Any chance of giving us, please, some wider context and explanation? Then of course everyone will do their best to help.
> 
> Σ


The army went to fight a battle, but the battle take a turn for the worst so the army think that they have been already defeated. 


Scholiast said:


> just to make it grammatic, you'ld have to say (or write) _exercitus sibi visus est victus esse_


That was my first and only attempt, I think it is correct but I'm not sure about it.


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## Lorenzogreen

Yes sorry I got confused. So it should be exercitus visus est sibi victus esse. I don't really know how to say it because to me it looks like it's the only way


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## bearded

Scholiast said:


> _exercitus sibi visus est victus esse_.
> That is now grammatically correct, but it still to me does not "feel" right.


As a matter of fact, visus/victus...sounds confusing, or at least poor style.
Why not _exercitus sibi victus esse paruit?_


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## Scholiast

Greetings once again all round

I have been wrestling with this, but still think (cf. # 4) that _exercitus_ is wrong here. Could we try again with _milites_, please?

_militibus nostris res in deteriora cadere videbantur  
_
Σ


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## gabal

iam milites putabant se victores


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## bearded

gabal said:


> iam milites putabant se victores


''Putabant se victos'', maybe.


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