# Difference sounds /d/ and /t/ français-español



## Toinamph

Hello everybody,

I have a question about the difference of pronunciation of the sounds /d/ and /t/ in french and spanish. I write in english so both French and Spanish can understand 
Actually I thought this sounds were exactly the same in the two langages but some Colombians friends of mine noticed a difference, and I think they're right.
For exemple, if you are a French native speaker, try to say the words "petit" and "midi" (here you can listen to the pronunciation : http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais-anglais/midi). You can hear like a "s" (or a "z" or a "ch" or I don't really know what sound) between the "t" and the "i". This is not the case in Spanish, where the /t/ sound appears to be "purer".

What do you think about that?

P.S : This is even more audible in English, for exemple "take" : http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/take


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## merquiades

Hello Toinamph
I know the little aspiration you're talking about in French.  I thought it was regional, perhaps even personal sometimes, as some people have more of this aspiration than others.  I'm surprised they'd use that as a model in the Larousse dictionary though.

The big difference is that Spanish sounds are weakened (not strengthened like in French) between vowels and at the end of a word.  For example, compare midi with "medida",  both d are weakened to fricatives approximating the English th in that.

By the way, all Spanish occlusives are weaker and approximates following vowel sounds.  This doesn't occur in French


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## Toinamph

merquiades said:


> Hello Toinamph
> I know the little aspiration you're talking about in French.  I thought it was regional, perhaps even personal sometimes, as some people have more of this aspiration than others.  I'm surprised they'd use that as a model in the Larousse dictionary though.
> 
> The big difference is that Spanish sounds are weakened (not strengthened like in French) between vowels and at the end of a word.  For example, compare midi with "medida",  both d are weakened to fricatives approximating the English th in that.
> 
> By the way, all Spanish occlusives are weaker and approximates following vowel sounds.  This doesn't occur in French



Hi, thanks for your answer! Actually I don't think this is a regional accent or something, I think this is the way we pronounce these sounds in France (as you can hear in the dictionnary). But I think it is even more audible in english than it is in french, example with a random word : http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/take, http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/too !


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## merquiades

Toinamph said:


> Hi, thanks for your answer! Actually I don't think this is a regional accent or something, I think this is the way we pronounce these sounds in France (as you can hear in the dictionnary). But I think it is even more audible in english than it is in french, example with a random word : http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/take, http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/too !



I don't think it's really the same.  In English apparently all the occlusive consonants are articulated with strong aspiration especially at the beginning of a word:  th  dh  ph etc.

In French, it seems to me that articulation changes in contact with the vowel "i" as in the examples you have given below.  They are not aspirated like in English, but slightly palatized similar I think to what might happen in slavic languages:  t' , d'  (this is just my impression).  I still think only some people do this in France, probably everyone in Canada.  These same speakers will pronounce the "i" consistently quite hard and closed.  A lot of them also release a slight  "ysh" at the end of words ending in /i/.  "Midi" is a good pattern word to get people to say:  /m'i-d'iysh/. (I remember another thread somewhere dealing with this).  Some people I know have told me this is typical in Eastern France, but some people on national tv have it too.

In Spanish it's a whole different situation.  Consonants are weakened (even dropped) when they are in contact with any vowel, which gives a complete different acoustic impression.  French people may have strong accents in Spanish when they pronounce consonants  strong and hard when they are supposed to weaken:  in particular /d/, /g/  and /b/.


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## Outsider

merquiades said:


> In French, it seems to me that articulation changes in contact with the vowel "i" as in the examples you have given below.  They are not aspirated like in English, but slightly palatized similar I think to what might happen in slavic languages:  t' , d'  (this is just my impression).  I still think only some people do this in France, probably everyone in Canada.


I think you're right. In European French the palatalization, if any, is very slight, but in Quebec French it's quite noticeable. To my ears, the stops can become actual affricates in Quebec French, e.g. petit [pə͜tsi] midi [mi͜dzi].

I also agree that the lack of lenition in French may contribute to the acoustic impression that the voiced plosives (b, d, g) differ in the two languages -- though not the voiceless plosives (p, t, c).


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## francisgranada

merquiades said:


> ... In French, it seems to me that articulation changes in contact with the vowel "i" as in the examples you have given below.  They are not aspirated like in English, but slightly palatized similar I think to what might happen in slavic languages:  t' , d'  (this is just my impression) ...



As I speek some Slavic languages, I agree with you. E.g. _adieu _sounds [aďö:] (ď - approx. as in English _due_) and not like in the Spanish _adios_.


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## berndf

francisgranada said:


> As I speek some Slavic languages, I agree with you. E.g. _adieu _sounds [aďö:] (ď - approx. as in English _due_) and not like in the Spanish _adios_.


This has little to do with the /d/. It is the "i" which is palatalized to /j/ in contact with a subsequent vowel. The French word _dieu_ is pronounced /djø/. This phenomenon does not occur in words like _dire_ but it does occur in words like _mieux _/mjø/.


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## francisgranada

berndf said:


> This has little to do with the /d/. It is the "i" which is palatalized to /j/ in contact with a subsequent vowel. The French word _dieu_ is pronounced /djø/. This phenomenon does not occur in words like _dire_ but it does occur in words like _mieux _/mjø/.


I agree, neverthless this [dj] in French sounds often like the Slavic_ ď,_ i.e. the [d] and the [j] "merge together" unlike in the Spanish or Italian_ diurno_, for example. At least, this is my impression.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> This has little to do with the /d/. It is the "i" which is palatalized to /j/ in contact with a subsequent vowel. The French word _dieu_ is pronounced /djø/. This phenomenon does not occur in words like _dire_ but it does occur in words like _mieux _/mjø/.



Some speakers do palatize with /i/ too, in "dire", or "midi" as in the example sound byte


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## berndf

francisgranada said:


> I agree, neverthless this [dj] in French sounds often like the Slavic_ ď,_ i.e. the [d] and the [j] "merge together" unlike in the Spanish or Italian_ diurno_, for example. At least, this is my impression.


This is because Italians don't palatalize the "i" to /j/ but pronounce _diurno_ as three syllables /di'ur.no/. /dj/ simply doesn't occur in Italian.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> Some speakers do palatize with /i/ too, in "dire", or "midi" as in the example sound byte


I think I know what you mean. But that has nothing to do with /dj/ as in /djø/. The "i"s in "dire" and "midi" are all proper vowels while the "i" in "dieu" is a consonant/semi-vowel.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> I think I know what you mean. But that has nothing to do with /dj/ as in /djø/. The "i"s in "dire" and "midi" are all proper vowels while the "i" in "dieu" is a consonant/semi-vowel.



Agreed but the /t/ or /d/ is still different.  I think it can still be somewhat palatized:  mi-dji, but not exaggerating or emphasizing at all the /j/ sound.  It makes the consonant soft.  It's very subtle.  As I said not everyone does this. I'm sure of that.  Yet I do not know why some people do it and others don't.  It seems easier to notice and less subtle in Canadian French.


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## francisgranada

berndf said:


> This is because Italians don't palatalize the "i" to /j/ ...


I understand, but it is not always true, or at least not with the consonant _n_. It's not too rare to hear p.e. "Antogno" or "Pologna" instead of Antonio and Polonia. 

But what I wanted to say is that there is a difference between the palatalized Slavic sounds ď, ť, ň, ľ  and the sounds represented as dj, tj, nj, lj.  In some Slavic languages, both do exist and pronounced clearly in a different way. An example from Slovak:_ delo _and_ dielo._ The "d" is palatalized in both cases, but in the first case (delo) no "j" (semi-vowel) is present, while in the second example yes. Thus, these two words could be spelled in theory also _ďelo _and_ ďjelo_, respectively (two syllables in both cases, i.e. _de-lo _and_ die-lo_).

With other words, I can clearly distinguish between *ď, ďj, ďi* and *dj* (no patalalization of _d_, like in Italian) independetly on the number of syllables (that you have suggested). From this point of view, we often hear these "Slavic" _ď/ť _ (or something similar, but not _dj/tj_) before the vowel "i" in the French pronounciation.


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## merquiades

francisgranada said:


> I
> With other words, I can clearly distinguish between *ď, ďj* and *dj* (no patalalization of _d_, like in Italian) independetly on the number of syllables (that you have suggested). From this point of view, we often hear these "Slavic" _ď/ť _ (or something similar, but not _dj/tj_) before the vowel "i" in the French pronounciation.



Thanks. you explained what I met very well, better than I could.


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## berndf

francisgranada said:


> With other words, I can clearly distinguish between *ď, ďj, ďi* and *dj* (no patalalization of _d_, like in Italian) independetly on the number of syllables (that you have suggested). From this point of view, we often hear these "Slavic" _ď/ť _ (or something similar, but not _dj/tj_) before the vowel "i" in the French pronounciation.


Exactly, that is all I said: /dj/ as in "dieu" is a different kind of bird altogether and should be mixed-up with what Merquiades meant. In "dieu" the "i" itself is palatalized and not the "d".


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## ampurdan

I've always noticed that little "s" after "t" and before "i" in French, I mean France French. It surprises me that it might be considered a regional thing. It strikes me as a step in the same direction Latin "-tio" took as it evolved in Romances and English.


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## merquiades

The palatalization is occurring before /y/ too:  tuer, millepertuis


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