# sperabant se habere



## Vladimir Nimčević

_Bessi ergo fraudulentibus verbis eorum seducti, festinanter venerunt in adiutorium ipsorum, et cupiditate praedae allecti, quam de Comite Vyd devicto sperabant se habere, praecipites irruerunt super agmina Supromiensium, quorum rector erat Comes Jan nomine.
_

What kind of construction is this: „quam de Comite Vyd devicto sperabant se habere“? Is it accusativum cum infinitivo? How would we translate it: (prey) which they hoped they would have it if they defeat count Vyd?


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## Quiviscumque

Welcome again, Vladimir.
What is the problem with this construction? It's an easy one:

[illi] sperabant se habere praedam ["praedae" is the referent for "quam"]  de Comite Vyd devicto, [...]


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## Vladimir Nimčević

I see, but I am not so sure if the present infinitive in this case have the quality of future infinitive.


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## wandle

Vladimir Nimčević said:


> I see, but I am not so sure if the present infinitive in this case have the quality of future infinitive.


Your doubt is valid: it cannot in correct Latin have that sense.

The context of the above passage is given in this book:
_korosi csoma archivum_, Volume 1  By Gyula Németh

I gather the Latin extract is from the _*Chronica Hungarorum*_, of medieval date.
The text following the extract shows that the hope of the Bessi was not realised, because they were rapidly defeated and repulsed. It follows from this that the author's intention is that *habere* should indeed have a future sense.

That however is not correct as Latin. *Spero*, when looking to the future, does require a future infinitive.
There is also another problem in the phrase *habere de Comiti Vyd* '[the booty which they hoped] to have from Count Vyd'.
*Habere* is not a good verb to use with *de* in a privative sense. *Habere* means to have, hold or possess whatever is already in one's possession or power. *Capere* 'to take' would be a better verb. Hence it ought to be, for example: _*quam sperabant se capturos esse de Comiti Vyd*_.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Yes, I learned it so in school.

But there is another problem. Pechenegs were defeated by count Jan, and I dont know for sure wheter Vid is realy defeated or not. Regarding to this phrase "Comite Vyd devicto", I would say he was.


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## wandle

No, it does not mean that Vyd was defeated. In the phrase *de comite Vyd devicto* the participle is equivalent to an adverbial clause; it is dependent on the finite verb *sperabant*, so that it forms part of the hope in their minds. The idea of his defeat is not presented as a fact.

The meaning is that that they hoped they would take the booty from Vyd, once he had been defeated.

If the author felt the verb *habere* was needed, because he wanted to express the sense of possession to which the Bessi were looking forward, then there was a suitable expression available, in an ablative absolute:

*quam sperabant se Comite Vyd devicto habituros esse*
'which they hoped that they would have after Count Vyd had been defeated'.
Again, the sense of the participial phrase is dependent on the finite verb.


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## Vladimir Nimčević

Now I know where to look next time. I didnt know for sure that ablative absolute could be equivalent to an adverbial clause. Thank you for making this thing clear to me. It helped me a lot


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