# Dual -  والدان / والدَيْن



## jmt356

(Two) parents: والدان or والدَيْن?
(Two) managers: مديران or مديرَيْن?


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## AndyRoo

The ان ending is nominative, while the ين ending is genitive or accusative.


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## jmt356

Is this correct: 
والداني عربيان.
(My parents are Arabic).

العربيان كريمان.
(The two Arabs are generous).


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## cherine

When it's in an iDaafa structure, you drop the nuun: والدايَ عربيان.
In the case of being مجرور، منصوب it's والِدَيَّ.

Your second sentence is correct.


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## jmt356

What is an iDaafa structure? It seems to me that it is the same as genitive, no? I have heard والديني frequently. Is this incorrect in MSA? Is it correct in the Syrian dialect? 

As I understand, there are three cases for Arabic nouns: 


Nominative (مرفوع):                    subject form with dam‘a; 
Genitive (iDaafa) (مجرور):           direct object form with fatha; 
Accusative (منصوب):                  indirect object form with kasra. 
 
For the dual form and sound plurals, the nominative, genitive and accusative forms are not expressed with the dam‘a, fatha and kasra, but rather through endings of ون, ان or ين. Is this correct for the dual: 


Nominative (مرفوع):                    رجلان
Genitive (iDaafa) (مجرور):           رجلين
Accusative (منصوب):                  رجلين
 
Is this correct for the plural: 


Nominative (مرفوع):                    رجلون    
Genitive (iDaafa) (مجرور):           رجلين
Accusative (منصوب):                  رجلين


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## clevermizo

والديني could be colloquial Arabic. In colloquial dialects that use the dual, the form is usually ـــَيـْن in a frozen form (it doesn't drop the nūn) and there is no distinction between grammatical cases. However, in standard Arabic the form is والديّ as Cherine mentioned. Normally in Syrian Arabic I might just expect أمي وأبوي but والديني could be slightly higher register.

You've switched Genitive - uses kasra, and Accusative - uses fatħa in the singular cases.

Other than that you seem to have it correctly.


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## jmt356

I am quite certain Genitive takes fatha and Accusative takes kasra. Clevermizo can you confirm?

How do we get والديّ from والدان? The grammatical rules states that you put ان after the noun in the dual Nominative form and ين after the noun in the dual (and plural) Genitive and Accusative forms. So how do we get والديّ? Is it an irregular noun?


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## clevermizo

Of course I can confirm. The مجرور takes kasra, and the منصوب takes fatħa. But I suppose we'll have to wait till a native speaker can corroborate that. There are cases when the مجرور also takes fatħa, but these are diptotes where مجرور and منصوب　are the same form. I guess I haven't listed a source but any grammar of the Arabic language will do. 

The initial confusion comes from your incorrect definitions of the English terms, which I've only noticed now. "Genitive" is used in iDaafa, but it is not a direct object. It is for possession and objects of prepositions. "Accusative" is used for direct object. It's better to use Arabic terms, in which case منصوب is used for a direct object, with fatħa, and مجرور is used for objects of prepositions and iDaafa, and uses kasra.


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## AndyRoo

Genitive is not the same as iDaafa. This page explains iDaafa.

As said above, in an iDaafa the first noun loses the ن . This also applies when adding pronouns, so والدين + ي becomes والديّ my parents. It is regular.

A genitive noun takes kasra (ِ) (for a definite noun) or two kasras (ٍ) (for an indefinite noun) while an accusative noun takes a fatha (َ) (definite) or two fathas(ً) (indefinite).

There is a difference between ين ending for dual and plural: dual is pronounced "--ayn", while plural is pronounced "--iin".

I think there are rather too many topics going on in this thread.


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## jmt356

I have moved the discussion with respect to the nominative, accusative and genitive forms to: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2546044&p=12828182#post12828182. 

Regarding the dual and plurals, can anybody confirm that the following translations are accurate for nouns in the nominative case: 

Parent: والد
Parents (dual): والدان
Parents (plural): والدِين

My parents (dual): والديّ 
My parents (plural): والديّ
The parents (dual) of the boy: والديّ الصبي


Hand: يد
Hands (dual): يدان 
Hands (plural): يديّ

My hands (dual): يديّ 
My hands (plural): يديّ
The hands (dual) of the boy: يديّ الصبي


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## Grim-fandango

jmt356, I don't know man where you are learning Arabic from but at least they should have told you that plural forming in Arabic is not straight forward like in English.

Even in English there are nouns that have their own plural form but in Arabic it's more like German than English. To get some idea visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_plural


> Parent: والد
> Parents (dual): والدان
> Parents (plural): والدِين       (No plural, but instead you could use أولياء الأمور  to refer to more than one set of parents)
> 
> My parents (dual): والديّ
> My parents (plural): والديّ   (are you kidding me ,,, how could you have more than one set of parents??!! I'm refering even English wise?!)
> The parents (dual) of the boy: والديّ الصبي     (you made a mistake that even natives tend to make *a lot*. most people tend to put "shadda ّ " on the "ي"  in dual nouns when
> 
> they delete the "ن", which is wrong and mean that another "ي"  has joined it. so, you simply pronounce it with a soft kasra just for ease of talk)





> Hand: يد
> Hands (dual): يدان
> Hands (plural): يديّ  (refer to the link above since it has a special plural form that needs to be memorized "أيدي". To make it easy on you, when it comes
> 
> to plural forming. There are sets of rules that tell which nouns follow the regular plural form of either musculine plural or feminine plural and what not)
> 
> My hands (dual): يديّ  ( and it's either mansoob or majroor depending on the harakah with shaddah, in nominative يداي, since it was يدان but
> 
> you've added the possessive pronoun with the deletion of noon)
> 
> My hands (plural): يديّ  ( the same case as your previous "My parents (plural)", how could you have more than one set of hands??!!)
> The hands (dual) of the boy: يديّ الصبي  (majroor beacuse of al idafah with deletion of noon, and no shaddah in here for the same reason of the above "والديّ الصبي)


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## jmt356

I believe there is a plural for parents: والدون for the nominative and والدين for the accusative and genitive.

As for my parents (plural), I am not so much concerned whether it is possible for someone to have more than two parents as with the grammatical construction of the phrase (and it is possible for someone to have two biological parents and one or more step-parents). To make it more plausible, we can say “their parents” (plural) rather than “my parents” (plural). I believe it would be والدون + هم, with the ن dropped, for والدوهم. If anyone wants to entertain “may parents” (plural), I believe it would be والدوي.

As for my parents, dual, والديّ is not incorrect, but it is for the accusative and genitive forms. The nominative form is والدَاي.

For the parents (dual) of the boy in the nominative, is it: 
والدان الصبي
or
والدا السبي (dropping the ن)?

For “his parents” (dual), is it: 
والداه in the nominative; and
والديه in the accusative and genitive?


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## barkoosh

It’s very simple with first person singular possessive ي, if you remember the following: this ي can stand ا, can’t stand و so it makes it another ي, and merges with any existing ي.

Since this use of ي is an iDaafa in Arabic (which roughly corresponds to_ --- of---_ in English, as if you’re saying “father of me” in “my father”), the ن is removed in case of the dual and sound plural. So,

والدانِ loses the ن in iDaafa. The ي can stand the ا, then it’s والدَايَ

والدَيْنِ loses the ن in iDaafa. The ي merges with the existing ي, then you have والدَيَّ (note that د keeps its fatHa).

والدُونَ loses the ن in iDaafa. The ي can’t stand the و so it makes it another ي, then merges with it since you have now two ي. Also, it can’t stand the dammah on د before it, so it makes it a kasrah. The result is والدِيَّ.

والدِينَ loses the ن in iDaafa. The ي merges with the existing ي, then you have والدِيَّ.




*Nouns with dual انِ/يْنِ
plural ونَ/ينَ mas. and ات fem.*NominativeAccusativeGenitiveNon-iDaafaSingularوَالِدٌ/الوَالِدُ – وَالِدَةٌ/الوَالِدَةُوَالِدًا/الوَالِدَ – وَالِدَةً/الوَالِدَةَوَالِدٍ/الوَالِدِ – وَالِدَةٍ/الوَالِدَةِDualوَالِدَانِ/الوَالِدَانِ – وَالِدَتَانِ/الوَالِدَتَانِوَالِدَيْنِ/الوَالِدَيْنِ – وَالِدَتَيْنِ/الوَالِدَتَيْنِوَالِدَيْنِ/الوَالِدَيْنِ – وَالِدَتَيْنِ/الوَالِدَتَيْنِPlural (3+)وَالِدُونَ/الوَالِدُونَ – وَالِدَاتٌ/الوَالِدَاتُوَالِدِينَ/الوَالِدِينَ – وَالِدَاتٍ/الوَالِدَاتِوَالِدِينَ/الوَالِدِينَ – وَالِدَاتٍ/الوَالِدَاتِiDaafa
with pronoun “my”Singularوَالِدِي - وَالِدَتِيوَالِدِي - وَالِدَتِيوَالِدِي – وَالِدَتِيDualوَالِدَايَ - وَالِدَتَايَوَالِدَيَّ - وَالِدَتَيَّوَالِدَيَّ – وَالِدَتَيَّPlural (3+)وَالِدِيَّ - وَالِدَاتِيوَالِدِيَّ - وَالِدَاتِيوَالِدِيَّ – وَالِدَاتِيiDaafa with pronouns other than "my" and with other wordsSingularوَالِدُ[هم]/‏
وَالِدُ [...]‏‏ - وَالِدَتُـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَةُ [...]‏وَالِدَ[هم]/‏‏
وَالِدَ [...]‏‏ - وَالِدَتَـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَةَ [...]‏/وَالِدِ[هم]‏
 وَالِدِ [...]‏ 
‏ - وَالِدَتِـ[ـهم]/وَالِدَةِ [...]‏Dualوَالِدَا[هم]/‏
وَالِدَا [...]‏ – وَالِدَتَا[هم]/‏
وَالِدَتَا [...]‏وَالِدَيْـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَيْ [...]‏ – وَالِدَتَيْـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَتَيْ [...]‏وَالِدَيْـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَيْ [...]‏ – وَالِدَتَيْـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدَتَيْ [...]‏Plural (3+)وَالِدُو[هم]/‏
وَالِدُو [...]‏ – ‏وَالِدَاتُـ[ـهم]/وَالِدَاتُ [...]‏وَالِدِيـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدِي [...]‏ – ‏وَالِدَاتِـ[ـهم]/وَالِدَاتِ [...]‏وَالِدِيـ[ـهم]/‏
وَالِدِي [...]‏ – ‏وَالِدَاتِـ[ـهم]/وَالِدَاتِ [...]‏


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## jmt356

If you drop the ن in the iDaafa, would "the parents (dual) of the boy" in the nominative be: 
والدا السبي (dropping the ن)?

For “his parents” (dual), is it: 
والداه in the nominative; and
والديه in the accusative and genitive?


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## barkoosh

Based on the chart, the answer is yes.


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## jmt356

Thank you, but I don’t see the third person singular masculine nominative dual in the chart. For the nominative dual of pronouns other than “my,” only والداهم and والدتاهم are given.

Also, the plural accusative of والدة should be وَالِدَاتً/الوَالِدَاتَ, not وَالِدَاتٍ/الوَالِدَاتِ, shouldn’t it?


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## barkoosh

jmt356 said:


> Thank you, but I don’t see the third person singular masculine nominative dual in the chart. For the nominative dual of pronouns other than “my,” only والداهم and والدتاهم are given.


[هم] was only given as an example. The left column says: iDaafa with pronouns other than "my". My bad 


jmt356 said:


> Also, the plural accusative of والدة should be وَالِدَاتً/الوَالِدَاتَ, not وَالِدَاتٍ/الوَالِدَاتِ, shouldn’t it?


This is sound feminine plural جمع مؤنث سالم. It takes kasra/kasratein instead of fatHa/fatHatein in the accusative.


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## jmt356

It seems that the rules for the حركات of almost _all_ of the nouns vary when in the dual or plural. 

For example: 
- The accusative والدًا in the plural becomes والدينَ rather than والدينًا.
- The accusative والدًا in the dual becomes والدينِ rather than والدانًا.

Some of them, thankfully, retain the same form as in the singular. 

For example:
- The nominative وَالِدَةٌ becomes والداتٌ in the plural.
- The genitive وَالِدَةٍ becomes والداتٍ in the plural.


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