# Fever = f-b/v-r in your language?



## ThomasK

Dutch has the word "*koorts*" but that is the only Germanic language that does not have a *f-b/v-r *word. I can see_ fever, Fieber_ in Gerlan,  North Germanic has _feber_... How about your language?

The funny thing is that we cannot even explain the origin of the word...


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## Yendred

In French: _*f*iè*vr*e_

Is it the origin of "_koorts_" that we don't know? For _fever/fièvre_, it comes from Latin _foveo _(to heat), itself coming from Indo-European, which has given many derivatives, and cognate with _focus, fire, ... _


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## Shadiac

The English etymology goes as far as to "*hrīþ*", which is an apparent of cognate of the current word "grip" and would certainly be related to the French "grippe", as well as all of its derivatives (such as Russian "грипп", which in fact is a simple loanword).

As for "*koorts*", you're quite right. It has nothing to do with _febris._


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## ThomasK

I wanted to focus (!) on _koorts _indeeed. I had written about a possible explanation for _koorts_; but it is gone!

I had wondered about
- a link with _*croître*_, but I am not sure the -_t_- is part of the root (I suppose so though)
- a link with _*scorch *_(started from the link: _toorts/ torch_ >> _koorts/ corch or s-corch_ >>> _scorch_), but that origin is obscure again, according to etymonline.com...


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## apmoy70

Greek: 

*«Πυρετός»* [pi.ɾeˈtɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«πυρετός» pŭrĕtós* --> _burning heat, fever_ < Classical 3rd declension neuter noun *«πῦρ» pûr* (nom. sing.), *«πῡρός» pūrós* (gen. sing.) --> _fire_


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## ThomasK

Shadiac said:


> The English etymology goes as far as to "*hrīþ*", which is an apparent of cognate of the current word "grip" and would certainly be related to the French "grippe", as well as all of its derivatives (such as Russian "грипп", which in fact is a simple loanword).
> 
> As for "*koorts*", you're quite right. It has nothing to do with _febris._


I think that is an "alternative word for "fever" ", as etymonline suggests, so not based on the same root, but I hesitate after reading the last sentence. Is it an alternative development of the same root? 


> in Old English hrið, hriðing (which is cognate with Old High German hritto, Irish crith, Welsh cryd, Lithuanian skriečiù, skriesti). The extended sen e of "intense nervous excitement" is from 1580s. Also as a verb in Old English, feferian.


However, looking at hrið, I see h-r-ð, stimulating my eternally wishfully-thinking mind to consider a link with k-r-t(s). There is hearth/ haard for example, but I suppose that is the most "natural" developing of the h-: h- remains h-. Or can it turn into a k-?


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## ThomasK

apmoy70 said:


> Greek:
> 
> *«Πυρετός»* [pi.ɾeˈtɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«πυρετός» pŭrĕtós* --> _burning heat, fever_ < Classical 3rd declension neuter noun *«πῦρ» pûr* (nom. sing.), *«πῡρός» pūrós* (gen. sing.) --> _fire_


So no link with "fever", I gather... Thanks again, Apmoy!


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## Yendred

Shadiac said:


> and would certainly be related to the French "grippe"



Indeed yes, and also cognate with _griffe/griffer _(claw/to scratch) and _griffon _(griffin).


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## Shadiac

Ok, we may be going too Dutch for me at this point. And I only speak Russian, French, English and Spanish.  
Buuuut....
Via the Frisian link between "d/t" becoming "th" in the great Germanic -> English exchange (as well as considering "d-n" becoming "-oo/ee" somewhere in there), maybe they do have the same root. Think about the possible cognates of the word "grip" in your mother tongue.


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## Yendred

apmoy70 said:


> *«Πυρετός»* [pi.ɾeˈtɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«πυρετός» pŭrĕtós* --> _burning heat, fever < Classical 3rd declension neuter noun *«πῦρ» pûr* (nom. sing.), *«πῡρός» pūrós* (gen. sing.) --> fire_



This Greek root has given many derivatives in European languages: an _antipyretic _medicine fights fever, and all words based on _pyro- _root (_pyromania_, _pyrolysis_, and so on...)


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## ThomasK

Shadiac said:


> Ok, we may be going too Dutch for me at this point. And I only speak Russian, French, English and Spanish.
> Buuuut....
> Via the Frisian link between "d/t" becoming "th" in the great Germanic -> English exchange (as well as considering "d-n" becoming "-oo/ee" somewhere in there), maybe they do have the same root. Think about the possible cognates of the word "grip" in your mother tongue.


Well, griep might have to do with _*grijpen*_, "to grip" or "to grab".  But could you illustrate
-  the "Friesian link" using some concrete examples, as well as
-  the _d-n >>> -oo/-ee_? 
 Thanks in advance!


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## Shadiac

ThomasK said:


> I wanted to focus (!) on _koorts _indeeed. I had written about a possible explanation for _koorts_; but it is gone!
> 
> I had wondered about
> - a link with _*croître*_, but I am not sure the -_t_- is part of the root (I suppose so though)
> - a link with _*scorch *_(started from the link: _toorts/ torch_ >> _koorts/ corch or s-corch_ >>> _scorch_), but that origin is obscure again, according to etymonline.com...


Careful, the French verb _croître _has an "i" circonflexe there, which means that its Latin ancestor would have probably an "s" lying in there somewhere. I would bet Middle French "croistre" would be the more recent ancestor, whereas "koorts" has no "s" lodged before "r".


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## Shadiac

ThomasK said:


> Well, griep might have to do with _*grijpen*_, "to grip" or "to grab".  But could you illustrate
> -  the "Friesian link" using some concrete examples, as well as
> -  the _d-n >>> -oo/-ee_?
> Thanks in advance!


Think _tooth_ and _goose_.


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> I wanted to focus (!) on _koorts _indeeed. I had written about a possible explanation for _koorts_; but it is gone!



Wiktionary has some etymology about it: koorts - Wiktionary


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## ThomasK

Shadiac said:


> Think _tooth_ and _goose_.


OK, but then: what is the link with d-n? (I apologize if I am not well informed about certain things...


Yendred said:


> Wiktionary has some etymology about it: koorts - Wiktionary


Had not thought of that. Thanks. However, not extremely plausible, I think...


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## Shadiac

too*th* -> ta*nd*
goo*se* -> ga*ns*


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## ThomasK

@Shadiac: of course, now I see. I had always viewed the -n- as an infix, that's why...


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## Red Arrow

ThomasK said:


> I think that is an "alternative word for "fever" ", as etymonline suggests, so not based on the same root, but I hesitate after reading the last sentence. Is it an alternative development of the same root?
> 
> However, looking at hrið, I see h-r-ð, stimulating my eternally wishfully-thinking mind to consider a link with k-r-t(s). There is hearth/ haard for example, but I suppose that is the most "natural" developing of the h-: h- remains h-. Or can it turn into a k-?


The opposite happened in Germanic languages at one point (k => h). Think of Latin *c*entum, Greek ε*k*ατό, English *h*undred. So it is definitely a possible sound shift.

However, why would this one word undergo a sound shift like that? Sound shifts are supposed to happen regularly.


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## ThomasK

But aren't those isolated phenomena common? h > k, metathesis, ... Or am I not getting your point?


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## Penyafort

In Catalan, *febre *[féβɾə]. It's -br- because of etymology (Latin febris), history (Old Catalan wrote _febre _or _febra_), and spelling rules (before l's and r's, only b is possible).



Yendred said:


> In French: _*f*iè*vr*e_
> 
> For _fever/fièvre_, it comes from Latin _foveo _(to heat), itself coming from Indo-European, which has given many derivatives, and cognate with _focus, fire, ... _



Well, French _fièvre _comes from _febris _too, not from _foveo_, although it's true that both are very likely cognates.


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## Shadiac

It is suggested to go beyond Latin here. Wiktionary links the Indo-European roots of "koorts" to Proto-Indo-European _**ǵwelH- *_("burn", "shine"), via Proto-West Germanic **kol *(English "coal"). That is but a suggestion, apparently, however **ǵwelH- *_also seems to become_* *dʰegʷʰ-* via Sanskrit _ज्वर_ ("jvára", meaning "heat") which then becomes  **dʰegʷʰris* ("of the heat", "heated") in Indo-European, **fexʷris* in Proto-Italic and, eventually, *febris* in Latin.


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## berndf

Shadiac said:


> Via the Frisian link between "d/t" becoming "th" in the great Germanic -> English exchange (as well as considering "d-n" becoming "-oo/ee" somewhere in there), maybe they do have the same root. Think about the possible cognates of the word "grip" in your mother tongue.


PIE _t_ became _th _in Proto-Germanic and moved from there to _d_ in West Germanic except in English, which at that time had already separated from continental West Germanic (~9th-10th century).

Elision of_ -n- _in front of spirants is typical for North Sea Germanic. Compare German _fü*n*f_, _Zah*n*_, _Ga*n*s_, _u*n*s _vs. English _five_, _tooth_, _goose _and _us_. Dutch, which incorporates North Sea Germanic and Frankish elements, has only partially undergone this shift: _fijv_ but_ ta*n*d, ga*n*s and o*n*s_.


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## Red Arrow

German also has examples of this elision: German Süd, Dutch zuid, English south, Proto-Germanic *sunþrą.

I wonder if this elision only occurs in Dutch around other sound changes? Elision only seems to occur after ij and ui, or before cht, but I might be mistaken.


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## berndf

Modern German_ Süden_ is a loan from Low German replacing MHG _sunt_, which is still found in some place names like _Sonthofen_.


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## ThomasK

Shadiac said:


> Careful, the French verb _croître _has an "i" circonflexe there, which means that its Latin ancestor would have probably an "s" lying in there somewhere. I would bet Middle French "croistre" would be the more recent ancestor, whereas "koorts" has no "s" lodged before "r".


Of course, you are right. I could (should) have known! So excluded!

How about the _*scorch *_hypothesis, with mobile s (or what do you call it)? Is there any objection for assuming there is a link?


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## ThomasK

Red Arrow said:


> I wonder if this elision only occurs in Dutch around other sound changes? Elision only seems to occur after ij and ui, or before cht, but I might be mistaken.


I must say I had always assumed _ander _was some kind of epenthesis while thinking of autre, and I suppose one could regard _autre _as a vocalisation of the l in _alter_. But I would not be amazed if I were mistaken... Or there are no links with _tooth, goose,_ ...


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## Awwal12

Russian uses comparatively recent terms: лихорадка (likhorádka, etym. lit. "evil-wisher", apparently of euphemistic origin), жар (zhár "heat") or just simply высокая температура (vysókaya temperatúra "high (body) temperature").


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## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> Russian uses comparatively recent terms: лихорадка (likhorádka, etym. lit. "evil-wisher", apparently of euphemistic origin).


This will be the next question: in what languages do you have a euphemism for "fever"?


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## Shadiac

Awwal12 said:


> Russian uses comparatively recent terms: лихорадка (likhorádka, etym. lit. "evil-wisher", apparently of euphemistic origin), жар (zhár "heat") or just simply высокая температура (vysókaya temperatura "high (body) temperature").


"жар" obviously comes from _**ǵwelH-*_. It's even more direct than "coal", because the root here is "гореть".

I'm still sustaining "koorts" and "coal" to be related. Somewhere the middle root "cor"/"kor" was extant.


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## berndf

Shadiac said:


> I'm still sustaining "koorts" and "coal" to be related. Somewhere the middle root "cor"/"kor" was extant.


That would require connecting _coal_ with _heat_. That is rather unlikely. Virtually all figurative uses of _coal _in Germanic languages connect it to the *cold* residue of fire or to the colour black, which again pertains to cold coal. This also make a connection of _coal _to _*ǵwelH-_ not very likely.


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## Awwal12

A bit off-topic, but one more example of the pretty frequent semantic shift "X > the excessive degree of X": in colloquial Russian "fever" may be reduced simply to "температура", i.e., "temperature". Obviously, when you state that someone has "temperature", you don't mean  *normal* or *unusually low* temperature.


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## Shadiac

berndf said:


> That would require connecting _coal_ with _heat_. That is rather unlikely. Virtually all figurative uses of _coal _in Germanic languages connect it to the *cold* residue of fire or to the colour black, which again pertains to cold coal. This also make a connection of _coal _to _*ǵwelH-_ not very likely.


But "heat" itself in English comes from Proto-Indo-European **kayd-*, does it not?


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## berndf

Shadiac said:


> But "heat" itself in English comes from Proto-Indo-European **kayd-*, does it not?


And? I don't understand your question. Neither _coal _nor _cold_ have anything to do with _*kayd_.


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## Awwal12

I'm really no expert, although I don't quite follow how we have come to the conclusion that





berndf said:


> That would require connecting _coal_ with _heat_.


Did you mean a semantic connection?..


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## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> A bit off-topic, but one more example of the pretty frequent semantic shift "X > the excessive degree of X": in colloquial Russian "fever" may be reduced simply to "температура", i.e., "temperature". Obviously, when you state that someone has "temperature", you don't mean  *normal* or *unusually low* temperature.


Interesting note. I think there is something similar with _style _and _style/ stylish_: a descriptive word gets a normative meaning. It often happens when a way of doing things turns into a model, an exemplary style/method/..., etc. This is the opposite equivalent: the descriptive word turns into the anti-model. I think. Think of _fashion _(façon), _mode _in French (modus in Lat.).

@Awwal12: the point was whether you could link _koorts_/... with _coal _etymologically_, _which is what Shadiac believes, whereas berndf does not agree with that. I think.


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## berndf

Awwal12 said:


> I'm really no expert, although I don't quite follow how we have come to the conclusion thatDid you mean a semantic connection?..


Yes, I am talking of semantic connections here.

Of course we all know that semantics can flip. That's why I said "not very likely" and not "impossible". But without this semantic link we have nothing but an extremely vague similarity between _koorts_ and _kool_ (which Incidentally can also mean _cabbage_).


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## Shadiac

berndf said:


> Neither _coal _nor _cold_ have anything to do with _*kayd_.


That's what I'm saying. Why bring the origin of the English word "heat" in here, we're not talking about it. We're talking about the origins of "fever" and "koorts".

_**ǵwelH- *_-> _gol/gor/kol/kor/col/cor_; *gor* -> _gar/jar/jvar_ -> Sanskrit_* ज्वर *_-> _**dʰegʷʰ- *_-> _**dʰegʷʰris *_-> _**fexʷris*_ ->_* febris*_


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## berndf

Shadiac said:


> Why bring the origin of the English word "heat" in here


That's not what I meant. I meant the concept of heat and not the word _heat_. See #36. The italics here


berndf said:


> That would require connecting _coal_ with *heat*.


were a mistake. I meant to write


berndf said:


> That would require connecting _coal_ with heat.


Sorry for the confusion.


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## Włoskipolak 72

Polish

*Gorączka*  [ɡɔˈrɔ̃n͇ʧ̑ka]  (Latin. _febris_) = fever

noun;
*gorąc* ,skwar, upał = heat , warmth
_gorący_, _gorętszy_; _gorącość, gorączka_

From Proto-Slavic _*gorěti = *_(Polish) *goreć* , _*gorzeć , *_to burn

On ma gorączkę = he has (a) fever .


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## Awwal12

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> *Gorączka* [ɡɔˈrɔ̃n͇ʧ̑ka] (Latin. _febris_) = fever


...Which I entirely forgot (Rus. горячка [ɡɐˈɾʲæʨkə], from горячий "hot"). However, in Russian it necessarily presumes a delirious state, not just fever.


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## Linnets

_Febbre_ [ˈfɛbbre] in Italian from Latin _febris_, but generally with /-vr-/ in Northern dialects.


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