# Since ... what does since refer back to?



## roniy

Since I have been attending college,my Parents are giving me more independence.
I think both are ok but I am not sure.

and if I say this sentence like this : "Since I have been attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence" It's still the same meaning, right ????

thanks.


----------



## roniy

I think I know the answer....
I am goona write what I think and somebody please say if its correct .......

this sentence" Since I have been attending college,my Parents are giving me more independence"

1) both are ok but when we use as "because" its imply that he has just finished his studing and his perents only after his studing are giving him independence.
2)If I use as "time" there is  implied that he is still studing and all along his studing his parentes are giving him independence.
3) "Since I have been attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence" means the same 

am I right????


----------



## foxfirebrand

The present and past progressive tenses (am/have been attending) indicate a process, and it's hard to see "since" as an indication of cause. Anything that happens after something else can be seen as subsequent (coming after) or consequent (happening because), but most often the context determines which interpretation is more plausible. A lot of logical fallacy depends on confusing a sequence in time with a sequence in causality. 

This is my favorite site about fallacies, if you ever want to study logic formally. The URL is for the fallacy I mentioned, but it's worth browsing through the whole site:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html

When you use _since_ to mean "because," the simple present is best. "I go to college" is a simple statement about your status or condition, and if the _fact_ that you go to college is the reason your parents give you more independence, it makes sense to say "since I go to college, my parents give me more independence." A handy test of the "because" meaning of _since_ is to reverse the order of the clauses and use _because:_ "My parents give me more independence because I'm in college."

I've noted that BE speakers don't seem to tolerate this use of _since,_ so your question is probably a moot point with them.  But they don't seem to have the same objection to _hence._


----------



## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I've noted that BE speakers don't seem to tolerate this use of _since,_ so your question is probably a moot point with them. But they don't seem to have the same objection to _hence._


Hello there!  I am one of the BE speakers who finds the use of *since* to mean because unnatural - and of course completely unnecessary.  
I haven't come across a *hence* in normal use for a very long time - outside some specialist contexts it is as rare as hence teeth.


----------



## foxfirebrand

I use _hence_ all the time, even in spoken AE.  Usually in phrases like "hence the need for such-and-such."  Or just "hence the such-and-such."  As for _since_ being unnecessary?  What a quaint concept.  So is _ergo,_ but it's not a word I'm above popping out with, usually when I want to strike a mock-quaint tone.  _Thence_ is stone cold dead, as far as my personal usage is concerned, along with the even-deader (?) _thither._  Gawsh what a poncey-sounding word.  Same with _hither_ and _whither,_  which pop up in AE, but in clichés I don't use.  So why _withal,_ with or without the _where?_  Wherefore even ask about something that whimsically idiosyncratic?


----------



## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> As for _since_ being unnecessary? What a quaint concept.


Ah but some of us do enjoy being quaint 
Just to restate my point, lest it become lost, the use of _*since to mean because*_ is unnecessary and often causes confusion.
The use of since referring back to an earlier point of time is natural.


----------



## axolotl66

I would agree with Panjandrum's position on "since" as an alternative to "because" (maybe not the "unnecessary" part, though!  ), and I would use "because" rather than "since" generally. As Foxfirebrand hints, it seems that it depends on whether you want to speak AE or BE!

If what is meant is: I am allowed more independence since I started attending college:
"Since I have been attending college, my parents *give* me more independence" - in fact, I would probably say this, or maybe "_As_ I have been... etc." or most likely "_Because_ i have been...". Actually, reading it again, I would put the clauses the other way round:
"My parents give me more independence since I have been attending college"

"hence" is similar to "since", I agree, but my feeling of it is that it implies "forwardness" or even that something "springs forward" from the preceding explanation, hence it's use in explanations of cause...!


----------



## foxfirebrand

In AE _as_ is overwhelmingly temporal, it means "during the time that" or "while."  Yes, _while_ has a marginal bit of causal baggage it shares with the legalese _whereas,_ but the _as_ part has shed this in AE.  I don't know if that's explanatory or just descriptive, or one bit of AE evolution happening "during the same time _as"_ another.  But in AE _as_ does *not* carry enough weight to substitute for _because_ in almost all except stilted-sounding or legalese contexts-- hence the same fate for _since._ 

All these subsequent/consequent words have a shifting line between _post hoc_ and _propter hoc,_ that's why I put up the link to the site that explains logical fallacies.  Again I want to plug that site-- I find the more I "know" the more that site has to teach me.


----------



## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> In AE _as_ is overwhelmingly temporal, it means "during the time that" or "while." [...]


AHA!!
That explains a lot.  In BE, it is  _*since*_ that is overwhelmingly temporal   Hence )) my very strong aversion to using it where _*because*_ or _*as*_ would do admirably.


----------



## foxfirebrand

> That explains a lot. In BE, it is _*since*_ that is overwhelmingly temporal Hence )) my very strong aversion to using it where _*because*_ or _*as*_ would do admirably.



That is the _exactamundo_ whence _Eureka!_ springs temporal from the human beast, whether simian or vulpine.


----------



## roniy

So I understand that the meaning of since in this sentence is "beacuase " right ????

and always with present simple or continues since= because ????

thank.


----------



## roniy

Now I have read again the tread and I haven't seen answer :

In each sentence what is the meaning of "since" :

1) "Since I have been attending college,my Parents are giving me more independence"
2)"Since I have been attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"

and Is there a diffrence between the two sentences.


I think I dont have to open another thread because it's the same question I just rewrite it.
but if it still wrong tell me and I will open another one.

thanks


----------



## roniy

In addition to the question in the massage before that I'd like to be answered I have another one

this sentence :
"Since I have been attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"

the same as :
"Since I was attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"

right ???
(I dont see reason to open another thread because all this question in the same subject but if you say that I must open another tell me and I'll open


----------



## Gordonedi

My view :

"Since I have been attending college, my parents have been giving me more independence"  says that your parents have been giving you more independence from the beginning of the time when you started to attend college.  The "since" is about the period of time during which the independence has been given (but see my comment below).

"Since I was attending college, my parents have been giving me more independence" has a slight mismatch in tense, and might be better expressed as "Since I was attending college, my parents gave (or were giving) me more independence."  This "since" is "because" and the sentence is about the reason why your parents have been giving more independence.

The first sentence might have a similar meaning to how I interpreted the second, but the "have been giving" and "have been attending" suggests the meaning I have given it.


----------



## panjandrum

roniy said:
			
		

> In each sentence what is the meaning of "since":





			
				roniy said:
			
		

> 1) "Since I have been attending college, my parents are giving me more independence."
> 2) "Since I have been attending college, my parents have been giving me more independence."
> and is there a difference between the two sentences.


It is very difficult for me to answer your questions because of the way the sentences are written. 
So instead of answering the questions directly, here are two sentences that are just a little different but I believe are much more natural: 

*Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence.* 
("since I went to college" means from the day I started at college ...") 
... and in fact I would prefer to change the order of this sentence to: 
_*My parents have given me more independence since I went to college.*_

*Since I am attending college, my parents give me more independence.* 
("since" = "because", or "as")
... and I would prefer to change the order of this sentence AND the since to because:
_*My parents give me more independence because I am attending college.*_

"Since I was attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"
The tenses in this sentence are too unnatural – I will not comment further.

Apology for overlap with gordonedi - I went off the skin the peppers while editing this post - so did not notice your post


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> It is very difficult for me to answer your questions because of the way the sentences are written.
> So instead of answering the questions directly, here are two sentences that are just a little different but I believe are much more natural:
> 
> *Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence.*
> ("since I went to college" means from the day I started at college ...")
> ... and in fact I would prefer to change the order of this sentence to:
> _*My parents have given me more independence since I went to college.*_
> 
> *Since I am attending college, my parents give me more independence.*
> ("since" = "because", or "as")
> ... and I would prefer to change the order of this sentence AND the since to because:
> _*My parents give me more independence because I am attending college.*_
> 
> "Since I was attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"
> The tenses in this sentence are too unnatural – I will not comment further.
> 
> Apology for overlap with gordonedi - I went off the skin the peppers while editing this post - so did not notice your post​




thank you for the explanation but I see it difficult to you answer my sentences becuase you dont like this usage  
but Gordonedi has answerd me and I think I got it from his explanation .
Your explanation also helped me so thank you two ​


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> It is very difficult for me to answer your questions because of the way the sentences are written.
> So instead of answering the questions directly, here are two sentences that are just a little different but I believe are much more natural:
> 
> *Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence.*
> ("since I went to college" means from the day I started at college ...")
> ... and in fact I would prefer to change the order of this sentence to:
> _*My parents have given me more independence since I went to college.*_
> 
> *Since I am attending college, my parents give me more independence.*
> ("since" = "because", or "as")
> ... and I would prefer to change the order of this sentence AND the since to because:
> _*My parents give me more independence because I am attending college.*_
> 
> "Since I was attending college, My Parents have been giving me more independence"
> The tenses in this sentence are too unnatural – I will not comment further.
> 
> Apology for overlap with gordonedi - I went off the skin the peppers while editing this post - so did not notice your post​




You know Now I am looking at your sentence :"*Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence" *
"*went college*" should be like with "*was attending*" ??? because they are both short actions so since should be as beacause ?Am I right ???
Or
mau be instead of "went college" it was better to put " began going college" ??

thanks​


----------



## panjandrum

Good question. 
"Since I went to college" means, for me, since that particular day, a specific point in time, when I started going to college.

So it would be possible to say "Since I started going to college..."
But that is not how I would say it

Ah - "When I went to college..." also means, for me, when I left home....
If I had still been living at home at that time, I would probably be quite happy to say:
"Since I started going to college......"


----------



## roniy

1) here another example since as time and Idont know why :  "since I was a young boy I have played tennis" I think since should be as because no ???

2) and also this sentnce "  "since I have been a young boy I have played tennis" what does this sentnce mean ??? the same as the first. This sounds good as time ..... no ???

and I am sorry that my thread is so confusing. Its because I have a alot question but all the question are similar .


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Good question.
> "Since I went to college" means, for me, since that particular day, a specific point in time, when I started going to college.
> 
> So it would be possible to say "Since I started going to college..."
> But that is not how I would say it


 
But I remember somebody from here explained me this sentnce :
"Since I was married , I've not been to a party " 
since=because because it with the verb be .
is it wrong ????
thank you again


----------



## roniy

I very confused now let me read every thing again and I will see if I understand .

I dont want ask you all stupid question so I'll come back in an hour


----------



## panjandrum

*roniy:*
Sentences with "since" are usually like this:

*since = as/because:*
Since <statement of condition>, <statement>.
*EXAMPLE*
_Since <I am going to college>, <my parents give me more independence>._

Sentences do not, normally, begin with "as" or "because", so they are usually the other way round:
<statement>, since <statement of condition>.
<statement> because <statement of condition>.
*EXAMPLE*
_<My parents give me more independence> since <I am going to college>._
_<My parents give me more independence> because <I am going to college>._

*since = from a point in time:*
Since ... <statement that defines a particular point in time>, <statement>.
*EXAMPLE*
_Since <I started going to college>, <my parents have given me more independence>._

Sentences like this are quite normal, although it is possible to put them the other way round:
<statement> since <statement that defines a particular point in time>.
*EXAMPLE*
_<My parents have given me more independence> since <I started going to college>._


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> *roniy:*
> Sentences with "since" are usually like this:
> 
> *since = as/because:*
> Since <statement of condition>, <statement>.
> *EXAMPLE*
> _Since <I am going to college>, <my parents give me more independence>._
> 
> Sentences do not, normally, begin with "as" or "because", so they are usually the other way round:
> <statement>, since <statement of condition>.
> <statement> because <statement of condition>.
> *EXAMPLE*
> _<My parents give me more independence> since <I am going to college>._
> _<My parents give me more independence> because <I am going to college>._
> 
> *since = from a point in time:*
> Since ... <statement that defines a particular point in time>, <statement>.
> *EXAMPLE*
> _Since <I started going to college>, <my parents have given me more independence>._
> 
> Sentences like this are quite normal, although it is possible to put them the other way round:
> <statement> since <statement that defines a particular point in time>.
> *EXAMPLE*
> _<My parents have given me more independence> since <I started going to college>._


 
 I understand what you say but stiil it doesnt help me tounderstand these sentences:

here all the sentneces that I dont understand
1) Since I was a young boy I have played tennis.
2) Since I have been a young boy I have played tennis.
3) Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence
4) "Since Iwere attending college , my parents were giving me more independence" .

and you dont know how I am appriciate you for the help


----------



## panjandrum

roniy said:
			
		

> I understand what you say but stiil it doesn*'*t help me to understand these sentences.
> 
> *H*ere all the sent*en*ces that I don*'*t understand*:*
> *1) Since I was a young boy I have played tennis.*
> = I have played tennis since I was a young boy.
> ... means "I started playing tennis when I was a young boy and I still play tennis."
> "I was a young boy" defines a point in time in the past - or at least a period in time in the past.
> It is a very long time since I was a young boy
> 
> *2) Since I have been a young boy I have played tennis.*
> The tenses of verbs in this sentence do not make sense for me. Here are some sentences that are very close to this.
> Since I *was* a young boy I have played tennis.
> = I have played tennis since I was a young boy - see (1).
> 
> *3) Since I went to college my parents have given me more independence.*
> For me, "I went to college" defines a point in time in the past.
> My parents began to give me more independence at that point in time
> 
> *4) "Since I were attending college , my parents were giving me more independence".*
> The tenses in this sentence do not make sense for me.


I hope this will help a little


----------



## roniy

I understand #3 

But #1 I don't understand why since can't be as becuase ....
Because I know that this sentence " I havn't been to a party since(because) I was married" is ok.... so why "Since I was a young boy I have played tennis" can't be also ?????

and for #2 and #4 I'll wait for others answers.

and thank you again for the help.


----------



## panjandrum

roniy said:
			
		

> I understand #3
> But #1 I don't understand why "since" can't be "as/bec*au*se" ....
> Because I know that this sentence " I hav*e*n't been to a party since(because) I was married" is *OK*


"...since I was married" defines a particular point in time.
You were married on a particular day [Eurrgh - if you are not married, then let me say, instead, that I was married on a particular day - since I was married implies "for all the time from my wedding day until now"]


> .... so why "Since I was a young boy I have played tennis" can't be also ?????


I can only say, as a fact of normal usage of English, that "since I was a young boy" will always be a time-reference.


> and for #2 and #4 I'll wait for others answers.
> and thank you again for the help.


I think this is a VERY sensible idea


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> "...since I was married" defines a particular point in time.
> You were married on a particular day [Eurrgh - if you are not married, then let me say, instead, that I was married on a particular day - since I was married implies "for all the time from my wedding day until now"]


 
In BE is since used also as because ??? Because I remember that "Since I was married...." was explained me here in the forum as "because" and now you say me that in this sentence it is as time ...... so I dont know if in BE people use "since" as in AE ..... ????

thank you


----------



## panjandrum

*Caution:*
I do not use "since" to mean "as" or "because".
This does not mean that _all_ BE-speakers would behave like me.

A sentence that begins:
"Because I was married....
"As I was married...
...MUST continue with a statement in the past tense.
"Because I was married, I was able to wear a wedding ring."

"Since I was married..." has THREE different meanings.

It can mean exactly the same as "because" or "as", to be used with the past tense as above.
Since I was married, I was able to wear a wedding ring.

OR
If I am still married, it can mean "since the day of my marriage".
Since I was married, thirty five years and seven days have passed.
Thirty five years and seven days have passed since I was married, 

OR
If I was married and now am not married, it can mean "since the period of time when I was married".
Since I was married, I have not spoken to any of my ex-wife's family.
I have not spoken to any of my ex-wife's family since I was married.


----------



## roniy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> *Caution:*
> I do not use "since" to mean "as" or "because".
> This does not mean that _all_ BE-speakers would behave like me.
> 
> A sentence that begins:
> "Because I was married....
> "As I was married...
> ...MUST continue with a statement in the past tense.
> "Because I was married, I was able to wear a wedding ring."
> 
> "Since I was married..." has THREE different meanings.
> 
> It can mean exactly the same as "because" or "as", to be used with the past tense as above.
> Since I was married, I was able to wear a wedding ring.
> 
> OR
> If I am still married, it can mean "since the day of my marriage".
> Since I was married, thirty five years and seven days have passed.
> Thirty five years and seven days have passed since I was married,
> 
> OR
> If I was married and now am not married, it can mean "since the period of time when I was married".
> Since I was married, I have not spoken to any of my ex-wife's family.
> I have not spoken to any of my ex-wife's family since I was married.


 
I don't get it . I cant understand how " Since I was married " or "since I was a young boy" can be as time .... instead  " since I became married/a young boy"  sounds much better for me ....

Since I was married, thirty five years and seven days have passed. ( IF I think like I have explaind before it doeasn't make sense for me ). so that is whay I can't understand it.  

and this sentence "Since I was married, I have not spoken to any of my ex-wife's family." It makes sense but as " becuase " ( becuase I was married I haven't spoken.....)

Probably I am wrong but I dont know why I am wrong and your explanation is OK. 

thanks


----------



## roniy

OK I'll wait untill tomorow may be somebody can answer me ...... thank you all see you tommorow


----------



## roniy

hahaha  I can't go sleep .... These questions bother me ..........

I wanna know the usage of since before I go sleep so I am going to wait for answer 
and I have found another sentence that I dont understand :

you say " Since I was married , I have been to a club" that you use it as time like (since I got/became married )

so "Since I was single , I haven't been to a club" 
but look here 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=42181&page=2&pp=20&highlight=roni
posts 28 and after 
they explained me that Since I was married/single the usage of since is as "because".
and that why I also have problems with " Since I was a young boy"

thanks.


----------



## Gooney

roniy said:
			
		

> they explained me that Since I was married/single the usage of since is as "because".
> and that why I also have problems with " Since I was a young boy"


_ Since/because_ is not the problem. The problem arises when the verb tenses don't make sense. You need to consider the entire sentence together rather than just the subordinate clause.

I won't be able to give a better explanation than the ones already given, but perhaps it might help if you just use _because_ instead of _since_ for the time being and focus on getting the tenses to work.

Just a suggestion.  Hope it helps a little.


----------



## roniy

Gooney said:
			
		

> _ Since/because_ is not the problem. The problem arises when the verb tenses don't make sense. You need to consider the entire sentence together rather than just the subordinate clause.
> 
> I won't be able to give a better explanation than the ones already given, but perhaps it might help if you just use _because_ instead of _since_ for the time being and focus on getting the tenses to work.
> 
> Just a suggestion. Hope it helps a little.


 

thats the problem that I try to use because instead of since and it also seem good for me so I dont know if it is correct


----------



## roniy

anybody ???


----------



## Gooney

roniy said:
			
		

> Because I know that this sentence " I havn't been to a party since(because) I was married" is ok....


This sentence is not okay. 

I agree with you that the sentence fragment "since I was married" can be taken to denote the cause of something and as such is similar to "because I was married." In fact, without any context that would be my first guess. But let me stress again that the problem lies in the mismatched verb tenses and you need to examine the entire sentence and context to determine whether it is okay.

First let's consider this fragment: *I was married*.

*was* --- simple past, refers to a specific point in time or a specific period in time in the past.

*I was married* --- I was married at this specific point/period in time. Whatever the context is should make it clear when exactly this specific point/period in time was.

Now consider the other part: *I haven't been to a party*.

*have been* --- present perfect, refers to a period of time starting from a point in the past and still continuing in the present. For example, I have not been to a party for five years (starting from five years ago and continuing up to now).

*I have not been to a party* --- again, the context should make it clear when the starting point was. In the example above, the starting point was five years ago.

Now we'll combine the two parts together using _because_. We'll forget about _since_ for the moment to avoid confusion.

*I haven't been to a party because I was married.*

Since (because ) there is no context to specify the times, I'll introduce them myself.

*I haven't been to a party for 10 years because I was married when I went to graduate school.*

There's nothing wrong with this sentence grammatically. But it doesn't make sense because it's illogical. The fact that I was married when I went to graduate school has nothing to do with whether I have been to a party for the past 10 years. You can substitute any time expressions you want, and as long as they are grammatically correct the sentence should remain illogical.

Hope it helps.


----------



## jacinta

Hi roniy;

Let's look at some sentences using since.  
The most common use of since is because.

Since I'm here, let's go over your homework.
Let's go over your homework since I'm here.
Since I'm driving now, I'll take you to the movies.

When we use since to refer to time, *ever* is usually added:

Ever since I was a young boy, I've played tennis.
We haven't gone dancing ever since we got married. OR,

We haven't gone dancing since *the day * we got married. (The reference of time is needed to remove the ambiguity of "since")


----------



## panjandrum

Here is a very small suggestion.
Don't use "I was married" in your examples 
There has been plenty of discussion about what this means, and there is no simple agreement.
You are trying to resolve uncertainties about since/as/because, NOT about "I was married". 
I think that the different ways "Since I was married..." can be understood is very confusing.


----------



## jacinta

Yes, I agree with panj.  I was married...The only time I would say this is: 

I was married on a Saturday. but more probable:  I *got * married on a Saturday

I was married to XXX but now we're divorced.

So, yes, I would throw out your sentence completely!  _Since I was married, I haven't been to a party._  No.  We wouldn't use this sentence.  I wouldn't even try to make sense of it.


----------



## roniy

OK guys I think I got something. But I think I should do what you say and leave this example "I was married" and maybe even don't use since as because .

thank you very much and Ihope I'll have more question about since  

thank you all very much


----------



## mjb

Since I have been going to college, my parents have been giving me more independence = From the time I started attending college my parents started giving me more independence.

Since I have been going to college, my parents are giving me more independence = Because I have been going to college/due to the reason I go to college:
my parents are giving me more independence.


----------



## Gordonedi

Well done, mjb.  Perfect !


----------



## roniy

I really got a last question about this :
"I haven't been to a club since I was married "
so it mean that before I got married I was in clubs or while I was married I was going to clubs ????


----------



## Gooney

roniy said:
			
		

> I really got a last question about this :
> "I haven't been to a club since I was married "
> so it mean that before I got married I was in clubs or while I was married I was going to clubs ????


It means that from the day you got married until now, you have never been to a club. It does not say anything about what you did or had been doing before you got married.

I am assuming here you are using _since_ to mean _from the time when_ and _I was married_ to mean _I got married_.


----------



## mjb

roniy said:
			
		

> I really got a last question about this :
> "I haven't been to a club since I was married "
> so it mean that before I got married I was in clubs or while I was married I was going to clubs ????


 
I think the point of confusion lies in whether _was married_ means a period of time or a point in time.  It actually means both so you have to figure it out from the context.



Since always refers to a point in time not a period.



I haven't [insert action here] since [insert point in time here]
means I used to do [action] before [point in time]
I do not do [action] now/anymore.
from [point in time] I have not done [action].



Eg:
"I don't go to clubs, _anymore_"  (I used to go to clubs but at some point in time I stopped going.)
"When did you stop going to clubs?" (The answer to this question can only refer to a point in time)
"When I got/was married"



Period of time vs Point in time

"I am divorced now, I was married from 1980 until 1995" [period indicated by _from...until_]
"I was married on the 19th of February" [point in time indicated by _on_]



Just to confuse you 

"When did you marry Helen?"

"I was married to Helen in 1980" [point in time indicated by completed action/ past tense _did...marry_]



"Were you married to Helen or Clare in 1980?" [Intent of question being to distinguish who was my wife for the period 1980]

"I was married to Helen in 1980"



"I got married in 1980 & again in 1990"

"Were you married to Helen or Clare in 1980?"

"I was married to Helen in 1980"


----------



## foxfirebrand

mjb said:
			
		

> Since always refers to a point in time not a period.


 
How about "I've loved you since I don't know when?"

Or "Oh, the Army's been that way since Christ was a corporal?"  Or was that _corporeal?_


----------



## Gordonedi

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> How about "I've loved you since I don't know when?"
> 
> Or "Oh, the Army's been that way since Christ was a corporal?"  Or was that _corporeal?_



I think that both of these still refer to a point in time rather than a period.

The first refers to the time when the loving began, but it is not possible to specify when that day (or time, if the loving has so far been for less than a day !   ) was.

The second is a little more awkward, but I believe that the "since" refers to the end of the period quoted.  If, rather than the reference to Christ, the sentence said "since the 1970s" or "since the war" then the general meaning is that the condition began at the end of the period.

I can imagine a reference to some kind of music which began in the mid-1970s, so I am sure that someone out there will be able to come up with an example of something that must have started during the period rather than from the end of it, killing off my argument.  I look forward to more debate on this point ! 

I can't find any mention anywhere of Christ being a corporal, but there's lots about him (his?) being corporeal for around 33 years some while back....


----------



## mjb

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> How about "I've loved you since I don't know when?"
> 
> Or "Oh, the Army's been that way since Christ was a corporal?" Or was that _corporeal?_


 
_I've loved you since some time between when I met you and when I married you._  Now, even though a period is specified, the words _some time_ make it a point in time.  You would never say _I've loved you since between when I met you and when I married you.  _Well I wouldn't anyway.

Just because you don't know the point in time, that doesn't mean the point in time doesn't exist.  It's a bit like the law: claiming ignorance to the laws of gravity doesn't mean you're not subject to them  but I suppose you could argue that with the man at the pearly gates after falling off a cliff, "C'mon, I didn't know that law!!!!  Just let me go back into my body and I promise I won't tell anyone you let me off!"


----------



## foxfirebrand

Your certainty that there is "a moment when since begins" is an act of Faith. I nor anyone else with a grain of rationality would want to argue with that.

But who said anything about marriage?

"I've loved you since I don't know when" says what it says, and it *doesn't* set a date. 

Ever heard the phrase "since time immemorial?" I'd love to hear your rationale for pinpointing the event implied by that one. "Immemorial" isn't my idea of a measurable point-in-time-defining adjective.

How about "ever since I can remember?" _Till_ would seem even more dogmatically objective a word, but "till all the seas run dry" is definitively indefinite.

I know you want to believe in a certain underlying order in language, and I sympathize with the need so to do. It's been around, and remained largely unrequited, since Medieval times-- and perhaps even longer.


----------



## panjandrum

Regardless of our ability to quote the date, each of those expressions specifies the characteristic of a particular point in time.


----------



## foxfirebrand

_Since Medieval times_ "specifies the characteristic of a particular point in time?"_Since time immemorial_ not only doesn't refer to a specific event, it denotes exactly the opposite, and means "since _nobody knows_ when." I mean, it isn't just a contradiction to this stubborn "rule," it spells out the meaning of that exceptionality.

You can posit an "initial instance" of almost anything, but that doesn't mean expressions of elapsed time involving _since_ concern themselves with such an idea, and the ones I cited fly in the face of specificity. In fact that seems to be their _raison d'être--_ to quash the impertinence of "oh yeah? _Since when?_"

"Since the days when we painted ourselves blue and lived in caves, that's when." Let's say this answer is given to a defiant child who's balking at doing some procedure according to time-honored protocol. Don't talk with your mouth full, why not, it just isn't done, since when-- am I saying the first human who ever decided he shouldn't be talking with his mouth full got that inspired notion during the act of painting himself blue? With the ink he'd just then signed the lease on his cave with?

"Ever since dinosaurs walked the earth" doesn't mean "beginning with the moment when some over-evolved amphibian had an epiphany about not returning to the primordial waters whence he first arose."

I know there's a big tug-of-war between AE and BE speakers about _since_ in the sense of "because," but this doesn't seem to be one of those across-the-pond things.


----------



## panjandrum

~~Chuckle~~
I am quite sure it is not an AE/BE thing - it's more like a game - a game with no end. 
Defined points in time according to the characteristics provided are:

*Since when* - does not fit, it is asking you to specify the point in time.
*Since the days when we painted ourselves blue and lived in caves* - well, a lot depends on who "we" refers to. But I could take you back in my time machine to the last day when one of "we" lived in a cave or was painted blue.
*Ever since dinosaurs walked the earth* - the moment the penultimate surviving dinosaur quit walking.
*Since time immemorial* - an infinite number of years ago, which is very specific. Any mathematician will confirm that.

But as it is a game without end, I happily concede that the definition of the point in time is increasingly vague for the more distant and abstract expressions.
AE translation:
But since it is ....etc


----------



## foxfirebrand

Okay, Mexican standoff.

But for the record, when I say "since the days when..." I do *not* mean since the moment when those days _ended_ (dinosaurs died, ink on lease on cave faded to nothing).  I mean at some indefinite point _during_ that period.  "Since Medieval times" can refer to some practice or procedure that started up during that chunk of history, no matter exactly when.  Sure there might have been an exact moment when the calculus was invented-- but was it the same moment for Newton that it was for Leibniz?

Same with the practice of tying a napkin around one's neck.  It just evolved!  The phrase "ever since we've been using napkins," at least when I use it, _does not concern itself_ with the exact timing of that first-ever knot that turned a swatch into a...uh, do you still have to say _serviette_ in BE, so as not to offend people?  No?  Since when?


----------



## panjandrum

Ah - OK, better than a stand-off, Mexican or otherwise.
 An "aha" moment, a clear understanding.  That feels a lot better.


----------



## mjb

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Okay, Mexican standoff.
> 
> But for the record, when I say "since the days when..." I do *not* mean since the moment when those days _ended_ (dinosaurs died, ink on lease on cave faded to nothing). I mean at some indefinite point _during_ that period. "Since Medieval times" can refer to some practice or procedure that started up during that chunk of history, no matter exactly when. Sure there might have been an exact moment when the calculus was invented-- but was it the same moment for Newton that it was for Leibniz?
> 
> Same with the practice of tying a napkin around one's neck. It just evolved! The phrase "ever since we've been using napkins," at least when I use it, _does not concern itself_ with the exact timing of that first-ever knot that turned a swatch into a...uh, do you still have to say _serviette_ in BE, so as not to offend people? No? Since when?


 
You said it: "I mean at some indefinite point _during_ that period"

Indefinite doesn't mean that it's not a point anymore.  It's still a point in time: you just don't know where it is!


----------



## foxfirebrand

"It just evolved!" To me that says it more than anything. Sometimes things that evolve reach a point of critical mass, and there is real change. The use of _since_ is most often comfortable with that assumption, but according to my logic this is *not always the case.* 

In all this discussion, a couple of you have been trying to impose an absolutist notion about measuring the duration of a practice _since_ its onset. I have at no time been trying to prove that _since_ doesn't mean what it means, but that it doesn't *always* fall into that cut-and-dry concept of "critical mass" since which point a condition exists. "Since I was young" does not point to *one* definite point, any more than "since I was medium-light gray" does, assuming I was born white, die black, and live out my life through an ever-darkening spectrum.

Some events are simple, some are *not so simple.* I have been upholding exactly that notion. In measuring time since an "event" that exists as a *slow and ambiguous process of change,* the word _since_ is used in English for want of an alternative that parses Time and Change as neatly as the human psyche yearns for such things to be parsed. You can't say that ambiguity isn't ambiguity "just because you don't know." Such insistence on an article of faith comes perilously close to saying ambiguity doesn't really exist. I would hate to see the fat sheaf of posts we could generate, if any of you believe that nothing is really *ironic*-- another concept a lot of people who want the entire Cosmos to "make sense" are often so uncomfortable with that they go into denial about it.

Finally, we have to resort to paradox sometimes, and make oxymoronic verbal formulas to say what we mean. You focused on the word _point,_ but not in the way I used it. A point is nothing if not definite, right? You can't be a point if you're "here and there" about it. And yet I made the counterintuitive argumentative _point_ implied by the phrase *"some indefinite point."* 

In order to make _your_ point, you had to fraction my not-so-definitive phrase, and in doing so you altered my meaning. I continue to be amazed that we are arguing about my descriptive, not proscriptive, attempts to explain *what makes sense to me.* Not to everyone, not to most people perhaps. And to me it makes sense that change doesn't click along, it flows.

My take on certain exceptions in the general use of _since_ does not cancel out anyone else's concept of what the usage is/should be-- and that's far from what I've been trying to do. But you can only dismiss the exceptionality of "since I was young" if you can figure out how I analyze the aging process better than I can do it for myself. Maybe you got old overnight, my experience has been otherwise.


----------



## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Not to everyone, not to most people perhaps. And to me it makes sense that change doesn't click along, it flows.


Me, Me, Me.  I'm entirely comfortable with your definition especially for periods that are long gone.  Amused pedantry and the fun of the chat would have me define a balance point - but that is unnecessary to the meaning of "since" in the context.  We all know that these are not medieval times (well, we believe they are not); we all believe that dinosaurs do not walk the earth; and so on.  
Mind you, we do not know whether or not foxfirebrand is young.  He certainly is by my definition


----------



## mjb

Panjandrum: why do you assume fox is a man? If you assume, you make an ass out of u & me!! 

Ok, we can argue until we're medium-pale-blue in the face over this so I suggest we recognise that everyone is making valid points.

_I haven't seen you since I was young_ - Fox says being young is a period in one's life that has fuzzy boundaries until you are old. Fox's sees a period.

_I haven't seen you since I was young_ - mj & Panj say it is implied that _since_ refers to a point when "_I last saw you" _not the whole period of being young.They see a point in time.

Fox is saying that because we can't prove that the above statement is only a point in time, s/he's right. We disagree that you're using an appropriate example.

_*I was running since 10am util 11am._
mj & Panj say that because Fox can't prove that something we both agree is only a period (like the above statement) can be put after _since,_ we're right. Fox disagrees that we're using appropriate examples.



			
				foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Finally, we have to resort to paradox sometimes, and make oxymoronic verbal formulas to say what we mean. You focused on the word _point,_ but not in the way I used it. A point is nothing if not definite, right? You can't be a point if you're "here and there" about it. And yet I made the counterintuitive argumentative _point_ implied by the phrase *"some indefinite point."*
> 
> 
> 
> foxfirebrand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definite: defined.
> Indefinite: not defined.
> 
> I think you've confused the definition of _indefinite _and the limitations of an adjective.  When a point's location is unknown, it is still a point: it does not transform into a line or an area, it's a point!
> 
> Anyway, let's agree to disagree because not everyone is as amused by this as Panjandrum is.
Click to expand...


----------



## panjandrum

mjb said:
			
		

> Panjandrum: why do you assume fox is a man? If you assume, you make an ass out of u & me!!


Good point, I could be wrong. Apologies to foxfirebrand, if appropriate.


----------

