# il s'embourgeoise !



## luisbin

hello, i'm french & was just wondering how i could translate in english this verb, when it's not litterally used : i mean, with the exclamation mark and speaking for ex. of someone getting older and loosing all bad & younger habits...

or we can imagine some novel : an artist who at last reaches success after long years of bohême life : "il s'embourgeoisait" (and then the plot changes !)

Of course the connotation is still "becoming a bourgeois", but i was wondering if there's some more natural english or american way of alluding to this kind of "gentrification" due to age...

thanks


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## dewsy

Hi
Normally we talk about becoming middle-class.


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## catay

"he joined/he had joined the bourgeoisie"
(a term used in English as well)


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## luisbin

thanks for your quick reaction !

well, i knew those two possibilities (should have precised... sorry!) by the dictionary

but, hum, i don't know, maybe i'm wrong, but it doesn't look like (to me, at least) as if you could hear it rather often, as you could hear a friend saying to another :

"tu rentres en taxi ? ben dis donc, mon vieux, tu t'embourgeoises !"

(just making up a rather genuine context, let's say he could have taken the night bus...)

could you say here : "how middle-class you get !" ?

or "well, buddy, you've joined the bourgeoisie now ?"

i would rather say no, but i've never lived in an english-speaking bourgeoisie !


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## luisbin

euh the last sentence was just _pour la beauté du mot_ !


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## dewsy

He could say "my,my - you're going up in the world"! or how middle class you have become..


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## max_france

Les bourgeois, c'est comme les cochons ... (Jacques Brel)


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## luisbin

dewsy said:


> He could say "my,my - you're going up in the world"! or how middle class you have become..




though very late : thank you !


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## luisbin

max_france said:


> Les bourgeois, c'est comme les cochons ... (Jacques Brel)



should we then say : "il s'encochonne ?"


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## Micia93

luisbin said:


> should we then say : "il s'encochonne ?"


 
pour moi, non, ça fait trop penser à "il s'encanaille" et on est loin de la bourgeoisie dans ce cas-là !


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## luisbin

Micia93 said:


> pour moi, non, ça fait trop penser à "il s'encanaille" et on est loin de la bourgeoisie dans ce cas-là !




oui oui, je jouais sur ce mot... mais il est vrai que le détournement de sens sur un forum bilingue, c'est pas très malin...

merci d'éviter le malentendu !


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## luisbin

Micia93 said:


> pour moi, non, ça fait trop penser à "il s'encanaille" et on est loin de la bourgeoisie dans ce cas-là !



moralité :

si nous ne voulons point que ce forum déraille
canardons les cochons, bichonnons la canaille


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## franc 91

to go up in the world - but there's also - to be upwardly mobile - to become very middle class (it's complicated in the UK as there's the working class - or what's left of it, the lower middle class, the upper middle class, the upper class, the aristocracy - even a Royal Highness can get away with marrying below his class - tout fout le camp) 
I can only ask you to look at this, while there's still time -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch which has become THE cultural reference in this field.


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## luisbin

franc 91 said:


> I can only ask you to look at this, while there's still time -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch which has become THE cultural reference in this field.



thanks franc91, I'll check this on utube...


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## SunnyS

From a US context, I don't know what I would say. 

"you're becoming middle-class" is kind of it, but depending on the context, it doesn't  really entail the right sense of "bourgeoisie" to me.  Being in the middle-class is so average, it  merely confers  belonging to the vast _American _middle-class culture, which is broad and varied and banal. It's the stereotypical picture of the two-children family, with the nice home in the suburbs, 1-2 cars and a TV.

The examples you gave have much more to do with a specific lifestyle related to having some money but also adopting behaviors of conventional  respectability. But _bourgeoisie _to me always brings up an image of considerably  more than average middle middle-class income... Bourgeoisie, as a term, also seems tied to political analyses of the  19th century and marxism.

I think this is the meaning you're using: *bourgeois   *- a  person  whose  political,  economic,  and  social  opinions  are  believed  to  be  determined  mainly  by  concern  for  property  values  *and  conventional  **respectability*.

On the other hand, the word _bourgeois _isn't used as often in the US as in Europe. "Upper-class" seems to be above "bourgeoisie," so I wouldn't use that either. 

The only thing that comes to my mind at the moment would be:

You've become respectable now, have you? 

You're becoming respectable now, are you?


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## Micia93

yes the notion of "respectability" is quite OK, but the expression also means that the guy is now willing to get _more comfort_ (more space to live in for example) than when he was younger


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## franc 91

Il est devenu quelqu'un de sérieux ?


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## Micia93

franc 91 said:


> Il est devenu quelqu'un de sérieux ?


 
en fait "s'embourgeoiser" est assez péjoratif (même Daniel Cohen-Bendit l'a avoué : "c'est fini Mai 68, avec l'âge, je me suis embourgeoisé, je suis devenu moins contestataire, j'apprécie les belles et bonnes choses ...), 
alors que "devenir quelqu'un de sérieux" est au contraitre très positif


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## SunnyS

Micia93 said:


> yes the notion of "respectability" is quite OK, but the expression also means that the guy is now willing to get _more comfort_ (more space to live in for example) than when he was younger



The way I understand the phrase "you're becoming respectable," it inherently includes a _bourgeois _level of money. You wouldn't say this to a  poor person who only changed their lifestyle but continued poor.


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## Micia93

I agree Sunny, when I mentioned "comfort" it was obviously linked to money !


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## franc 91

sérieux could be seen as being ironic, couldn't it? (it depends how you say it, I suppose)


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## SunnyS

Micia93 said:


> I agree Sunny, when I mentioned "comfort" it was obviously linked to money !



Micia: yes the notion of "respectability" is quite OK, *but *the expression also  means that the guy is now willing to get _more comfort_ (more space  to live in for example) than when he was younger         

I don't understand why you wrote "but" then if you were agreeing...


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## SunnyS

franc 91 said:


> sérieux could be seen as being ironic, couldn't it? (it depends how you say it, I suppose)



just like "respectable" would be very ironic as well

For example, a pig like Madonna doesn't become respectable ever, no matter if she goes to live a lord's mansion in the English countryside. All she can manage is to become "respectable."


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## Micia93

SunnyS said:


> I don't understand why you wrote "but" then if you were agreeing...


 
haha, you're nitpicking Sunny 
yes, I should have written *"and*" instead


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## luisbin

franc 91 said:


> sérieux could be seen as being ironic, couldn't it? (it depends how you say it, I suppose)



to my ear, it definitely could. But the context/function would be slightly different. Let's take another two examples : the taxi example and, let's say, the "coming back early" example

1) A takes a cab to come back home, B says : "ben dis donc, tu t'embourgeoises"

2) A says he'd rather be home early, since he's working the day after, B says:  "mais c'est qu'on deviendrait sérieux ?"

In both cases, there's irony, but the way you build it is different : in the first case, you're playing with a fake reproach, and with the second, you're faking some kind of "parental approval". In these cases, 'embourgeoiser' is negative (not much, but still) while 'sérieux' is indeed positive. But I would'nt say that it has to be so... It depends on the value scale of whom is speaking. And the "sérieux" can be watched as something negative... and meet up with the "embourgeoisement"

When B is desapointed (that A doesn't want to go for one more drink, for instance), (s)he could say :

3) "oh la la, ce que t'es sérieux" / "oh la la, ce que t'es devenu sérieux"

The way you would stress the word "sérieux" would then be rather different (you would stress the first syllable, then prolong the second) - and it would no more sound like a soft and nice teasing, but plainly reproachful.

On the contrary, it's true that "embourgeoiser" seems to have always like the memory of something negative, which seems to be highly linked to the way wealth, money and the use of it is considered by the cultural context in which A & B are speaking.

As usual (but especially with this word?), when you want to translate 'embourgeoiser', it's not just the meaning, but the situation, which has to be translated. You're teasing, because it is supposed to be "better" not to take the cab, which can easily be ununderstandable in other cultures or, other "milieux" in the same culture.

My first example supposed a milieu where "taking a cab" (which costs a bit of money in France) is looked at as fitting rather rich people only (I'm caricaturing because my linguistic skills don't allow me to be subtler, but the idea is this one).

 I wouldn't be surprised, that all this (in France) takes root in a latin/catholic point of view on how to earn and spend money "ici bas"... And for sure one feels the remainings of the "old europe" structures of the society. (Not to speak of the fact that the word "bourgeois" - which is french - can't have the same meaning when it is imported in english - as it is true when the contrary occurs)

There's behind this the idea that becoming upper class is "evil" (the word is much too strong, of course). Which might make it more difficult to translate in American English ? Maybe I simply let my clichés speak, but a pun works only if the "normality" which it presupposes actually meets (the representations of) the experience of the speakers. When I'm watching some episod of Seinfeld, for example, I'm always amazed to see that more than the funny comments made by the characters on everyday situations, the situations themselves and the moral norms (those comments are based on) are difficult to translate.

What if the norm is to take a taxi when you can afford it ? (because, of course, the french example couldn't be carried on if the people who are teased couldn't afford this damned cab... They can, while they couldn't, they do, while they didn't, and that's why they're teased)


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## luisbin

SunnyS said:


> For example, a pig like Madonna doesn't become respectable ever, no matter if she goes to live a lord's mansion in the English countryside. All she can manage is to become "respectable."



nice definition of the "nouveau riche" syndrom, which would'nt fit in a french context for "embourgeoisement" (my opinion), but may be a nice way of translating the context ??


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## luisbin

SunnyS said:


> Bourgeoisie, as a term, also seems tied to political analyses of the  19th century and marxism.



I can't be sure, but I would bet no one in France sees a Bourgeois in a black frockcoat, big cigar and top hat, when one hears "s'embourgeoiser". I'm not even sure the word "bourgeois" would arise (I'm exagerating a bit, maybe, but still)

First, because the perception of "Bourgeois" is much older than Marx (see the 17th theater), and above all, much wider : the word is just a little french word, used by many mouths and in many many contexts. "bourgeois" is not only a "technical" word as it seems to be in english (and, as you say, especially in american english)

Of course, what you say is sometimes very true. For instance, the word "petit bourgeois" comes from the (neo-marxist) 70' and is (always?) used in a very socialclass pejorative meaning.

But 's'embourgeoiser'... The exemple of Micia is quite interesting : Cohn Bendit said that "il s'embourgeoise", I guess he wouldn't have said "je suis devenu un vrai petit bourgeois"

So it's negative, but on the edge... and it can swing over, using the connotations of, yes, comfort (good food, nice clothe, etc)

I can remember a friend, some years ago, visiting another one in the flat of the latter's grand mother. Sitting down in a rich sofa, he sighed and said : "quand même, le confort bourgeois...". We all laughed, then. And I guess we did because of who was saying this, and because of the "value reversal" of it, like in Cohn Bendit's sentence : the "bourgeois" was becoming the good guy of the story, "after all"

All this to say, that I agree with Micia to stress on comfort, rather than respectability.

But again, it doesn't mean the translation wouldn't fit, and you could even lump Madona and Molière's "bourgeois gentilhomme" together in their "gentilhommière" !


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## SunnyS

luisbin said:


> nice definition of the "nouveau riche" syndrom, which would'nt fit in a french context for "embourgeoisement" (my opinion), but may be a nice way of translating the context ??



I wasn't talking about Madonna being "nouveau riche." 

Respectability, as was mentioned, only partially refers to money. I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the non-monetary component of respectability as it applies to Madonna...


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## SunnyS

luisbin said:


> All this to say, that I agree with Micia to stress on comfort, rather than respectability.



This is a complete contradiction of what your wrote in your question...

"hello, i'm french & was just wondering how i could translate in  english this verb, when it's not litterally used : i mean, with the  exclamation mark and speaking for ex. of someone getting older and  loosing all bad & younger habits..."

Contradict away...


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## luisbin

SunnyS said:


> I wasn't talking about Madonna being "nouveau riche."
> 
> Respectability, as was mentioned, only partially refers to money. I thought it would be obvious that I was referring to the non-monetary component of respectability as it applies to Madonna...



Hello Sunny S, and thanks for answering.

Hmm. I wasn't either talking about money. And I still think your example fits perfectly what kind of ideas "Nouveau riche" would arise in french : bad taste in trying to reach the "bon goût" of the upper class.

Money isn't the problem anymore : they have money,  and long for respectability, which they think they can buy, but they just buy "respectability" as you stated it.

As for the "embourgeoisement". Hmm, how can I explain it ?

I wouldn't say that "Madona s'est embourgeoisée", living in the english mansion you mentioned.

But still, as I told you, "You've become respectable now, have you" might be a very good translation of "ben dis donc, tu t'embourgeoises". But I wouldn't translate generally "l'embourgeoisement" as seeking more "respectability".

As to my contradiction, you're probably right. The answers the people have made made me think about this word & this sentence.

Wait, I'll quote.


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## luisbin

SunnyS said:


> This is a complete contradiction of what your wrote in your question...
> 
> "hello, i'm french & was just wondering how i could translate in  english this verb, when it's not litterally used : i mean, with the  exclamation mark and speaking for ex. of someone getting older and  loosing all bad & younger habits..."
> 
> Contradict away...



So. No I won't contradict away, because you're right : this happens to be a pretty contradiction (I love them).

Brel's song, actually, plays with both "respectability" and "comfort". 

But, still, now that I had to think more about it, I finally think I was wrong then, at least for the examples that then came : the taxi one, or Cohn Bendit's one.

One s'embourgeoise not because (s)he's seeking to look like a bourgeois : one often still thinks evil of bourgeois, although one s'embourgeoise. But the easiness of some aspects of a richer life (taking a cab rather than night bus, planes rather than night trains, going to good restaurants rather than kebabs, etc, etc) just gets the upper hand on one's older ways of thinking and living.


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## Wodwo

I don't think there's anything in English that really gets all the meanings of 's'embourgeoiser', but perhaps the idea of 'settling down' will work sometimes, where the emphasis is on leaving behind the ways of youth.

For the taxi example I'd be tempted to go for 'you're going up in the world', as someone suggested earlier. In BE we might say, 'a taxi? That's a bit posh', which is maybe closer with its connotations of class, money and gentle mockery.

None of these will do in the context I'm looking at, which is:
"Après la fin du Moyen-Age, les demeures s’embourgeoisent et perdent leur vocation militaire".

I'm going to say something about comfort. I'm toying with the idea of 'the great houses became more luxurious and lost their military function', but I think perhaps 'luxury' is overstating it.


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