# Swedish: det ordet



## garydpoole

Hej !

I've just encountered the following, relatively straightforward, sentence:

_Du ska inte använda det ordet.
_
However, assuming that the translation is, "You won't use that word", I'm a bit confused as to why, _det_, has been used instead of _det där_ before _ordet _?

It just looks wrong to see _det _before a noun in the definite article, even if the meaning is, _that_.

I'm guessing that in some (written) contexts, it's acceptable to drop the _där_. Just wondering if someone could clarify this, please ?

Tack så mycket !

Gary


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## MattiasNYC

It doesn't look odd to me actually. I'm not good at explaining grammar but I'm not reacting when I see it. I'm sure someone else will chime in and explain.

I'll say though that I would probably translate "ska inte" to "shouldn't" in this case. "won't" to me sounds like a prediction as opposed to "shouldn't" which in this case sounds like a command, which is what I guess it is (or an admonition).


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## Lugubert

MattiasNYC said:


> I'll say though that I would probably translate "ska inte" to "shouldn't" in this case.


Seconded. Also, if spoken, there would be a rather heavy stress on "det", which reduces the need for 'this/that' "det här"/"det där".

In other cases, though, there's a prescriptive ban on "det ordet" in writing (unless you're quoting a speaker from the Swedish West coast...). '(Please) write this word' is supposed to be "Skriv detta ord" (ubiquitous in formal-ish writing, but which I personally would never write or never _ever_ say) or "Skriv det här ordet" (my preference).


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## quiora

Lugubert, are you claiming that "det ordet" mustn't be used in writing? Because that's wrong. There's nothing strange about "Du ska inte använda det ordet."

When I try to compare "Du ska inte använda det ordet" and "Du ska inte använda det där ordet", "det där" sounds more pointing, almost like "that word over there". "Det ordet" is just "that word".


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## MattiasNYC

To my ears there isn't much difference I have to say. I think in context either would be pretty much equally "pointy" and obvious. Perhaps that's just me though.


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## bicontinental

I look at it this way (albeit from a Danish perspective, but it should be the same in Swedish).
Den, det, denne, dette, de, disse etc. (DK) are demonstrative pronouns. Adding _her_ or _der_ (här och där) just indicates proximity.  In English this proximity indicator is of course built into the demonstrative pronouns, this vs. that.

Det där huset ~ that house...(over there) vs. det här huset ~this house (right here)

Strictly speaking, you really don't know if _det_ or_ den_ alone, without context, should be translated into _this _or _that.
_
Bic.


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## garydpoole

Many thanks everyone for your input !



bicontinental said:


> I look at it this way (albeit from a Danish perspective, but it should be the same in Swedish).
> Den, det, denne, dette, de, disse etc. (DK) are demonstrative pronouns. Adding _her_ or _der_ (här och där) just indicates proximity.  In English this proximity indicator is of course built into the demonstrative pronouns, this vs. that.
> 
> Det där huset ~ that house...(over there) vs. det här huset ~this house (right here)
> 
> Strictly speaking, you really don't know if _det_ or_ den_ alone, without context, should be translated into _this _or _that.
> _
> Bic.



I'm just wondering then, based upon my limited knowledge of Swedish grammar, if the above statement is equivalent to what the French do when wanting to specify if _that _refers to a close or more distance object by tagging either -là (that) or -ci (this) onto the end of the noun:

Je préfère beaucoup cette voiture-là.
I much prefer _that _car.

Je préfère beaucoup cette voiture-ci.
I much prefer _this _car.

In either case, the tag is optional, not mandatory.

Hence, it would appear to me that in Swedish, the här and där perform the same task. And are thus, optional ?

Hälsningar

Gary


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## MattiasNYC

It may be that "här" and "där" indeed most of the time indicate a difference in proximity, where the former is closer than the latter, just as in French. You'd for example say "Nej, jag vill nog använda den här skjortan istället. Den där är inte ren." (No, I think I want to use this shirt instead. That one isn't clean) Imagine someone then holding the clean shirt and pointing to the dirty one.

Similarly I think you could possibly also use the words with ideas. "Den _här_ nya lagen kommer att lösa problemet" (_This_ new law will solve the problem). With emphasis on "här" it becomes very specific. I think you could use "där" and it would then in a way make it sound more remote. I would use it if I for example started a new sentence and referenced something I heard on the news "Den där nya lagen, kommer den att lösa problemet?" The only problem is that as a question I could probably use "här" as well with the same effect.

Then again, I would maybe consider for example a condemnation of an ideology that other people believe in but not "us" to be phrased using "där": "Den där ideologin kommer att skapa problem." But if I was in a group where this ideology was discussed because half of us believed in it I might use "här" instead because it is closer to me....

Did I just confuse things further???


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## bicontinental

MattiasNYC said:


> Did I just confuse things further???



Not at all...you've added some good examples. It works in literal and figurative speech.



garydpoole said:


> I'm just wondering then, based upon my limited knowledge of Swedish grammar, if the above statement is equivalent to what the French do when wanting to specify if _that _refers to a close or more distance object by tagging either -là (that) or -ci (this) onto the end of the noun:



Yes, I'd say so. 

Best,
Bic


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## Wilma_Sweden

garydpoole said:


> Hej !
> 
> I've just encountered the following, relatively straightforward, sentence:
> 
> _Du ska inte använda det ordet.
> _
> However, assuming that the translation is, "You won't use that word", I'm a bit confused as to why, _det_, has been used instead of _det där_ before _ordet _?
> 
> It just looks wrong to see _det _before a noun in the definite article, even if the meaning is, _that_.
> 
> I'm guessing that in some (written) contexts, it's acceptable to drop the _där_. Just wondering if someone could clarify this, please ?
> 
> Tack så mycket !
> 
> Gary


There is nothing odd about it, it is one variant of how demonstrative determiners (or pronouns) are used:
det ordet, det här ordet, det där ordet - these are all grammatically correct, and context will have to determine whether 'det ordet' should be translated as 'this word' or 'that word'. 
For formal written language, we can also use 'detta ord' (and even 'detta ordet' although it's dialectal, see my comment to Lugubert below).

I imagine in your case that a specific word has been mentioned, and it is either slang or not politically correct. There are at least 2 possible responses:  

Du ska inte använda det ordet. (neutral statement). 
Du ska inte använda det där ordet. (infers emotional distance, see my comment below about Mrs. Thatcher!) 

In both cases, I would probably translate it to 'that word' in English. 



MattiasNYC said:


> It doesn't look odd to me actually. I'm not good at explaining grammar but I'm not reacting when I see it. I'm sure someone else will chime in and explain.
> 
> I'll say though that I would probably translate "ska inte" to "shouldn't" in this case. "won't" to me sounds like a prediction as opposed to "shouldn't" which in this case sounds like a command, which is what I guess it is (or an admonition).


I agree, there is nothing odd about this sentence, and it's definitely a prescriptive utterance, in other words 'shouldn't' is the English equivalent. 



Lugubert said:


> .... Also, if spoken, there would be a rather heavy stress on "det", which reduces the need for 'this/that' "det här"/"det där".
> 
> In other cases, though, there's a prescriptive ban on "det ordet" in writing (unless you're quoting a speaker from the Swedish West coast...). '(Please) write this word' is supposed to be "Skriv detta ord" (ubiquitous in formal-ish writing, but which I personally would never write or never _ever_ say) or "Skriv det här ordet" (my preference).


I disagree to some extent, but again it is probably due to regional variation. I would happily write 'detta ordet' or 'detta ord' (but would not say them). The former is common in Scania, while the latter is the version recommended for formal Swedish text, supposedly by non-Scanian grammarians. 



MattiasNYC said:


> It may be that "här" and "där" indeed most of the time indicate a difference in proximity, where the former is closer than the latter, just as in French. You'd for example say "Nej, jag vill nog använda den här skjortan istället. Den där är inte ren." (No, I think I want to use this shirt instead. That one isn't clean) Imagine someone then holding the clean shirt and pointing to the dirty one.
> 
> Similarly I think you could possibly also use the words with ideas. "Den _här_ nya lagen kommer att lösa problemet" (_This_ new law will solve the problem). With emphasis on "här" it becomes very specific. I think you could use "där" and it would then in a way make it sound more remote. I would use it if I for example started a new sentence and referenced something I heard on the news "Den där nya lagen, kommer den att lösa problemet?" The only problem is that as a question I could probably use "här" as well with the same effect.
> 
> Then again, I would maybe consider for example a condemnation of an ideology that other people believe in but not "us" to be phrased using "där": "Den där ideologin kommer att skapa problem." But if I was in a group where this ideology was discussed because half of us believed in it I might use "här" instead because it is closer to me....
> 
> Did I just confuse things further???


No, I think these are good examples of two different dynamics - we use physical proximity to disambiguate (den här skjortan/den där skjortan). In the case of emotional proximity, we would normally use 'den här' about things we like, and 'den där' about things we don't like. A good English example (if it is true) is that Queen Elizabeth didn't like Margaret Thatcher, and therefore she referred to Mr. Thatcher as 'that woman' (possibly with contempt in her voice as well!).


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## MattiasNYC

"that woman"... very interesting example...


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## Wilma_Sweden

MattiasNYC said:


> "that woman"... very interesting example...





Wilma_Sweden said:


> (if it is true)


Hehe, I think I can safely remove that disclaimer - just look at the Google search...


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