# Conditional - Si yo hubiera sido rico



## judesty

Please I want to know how to say...

" Si yo  hubiera sido rico"

Is possible to say.... "If I would be a rich"

Thanks


----------



## Outsider

"If I had been rich." That's not a conditional, it's the past (perfect) subjunctive.


----------



## judesty

But If I wan to say... Si yo fuera rico hubiera viajado a Londres....that is a conditional isnt it??? or not?
please explain me.

Thanks


----------



## Jellby

Como dice la canción: if I were a rich man


----------



## Outsider

judesty said:


> But If I wan to say... Si yo fuera rico hubiera viajado a Londres....


"If I were [--> subjuntivo] rich, I would [--> condicional] have travelled to London."


----------



## judesty

Thanks for all

And I dont never listen the song...


----------



## Zeli

judesty said:


> Thanks for all
> 
> And I dont ever listen to the song...


 
If I had been rich, I would have travelled to London


----------



## mhp

Hi judesty,

I think you wanted to say: I've never heard that song. (Nunca he oído esa canción).

Por cierto, la canción es de «Fiddler on the roof» (El violinista en el tejado).


----------



## judesty

thanks of all


----------



## Tongue Tied

If = a condition of sorts , to say Judesty's phrase isn't a conditional _sentence_ is correct, to say it isn't a conditional but a perfect form, i.e, doesn't contain the idea of a condition is nonsense. Many English words have overlapping categories, the poster ought to know this, how many verbs are nouns and vice versa? How many verbs do you know that can be adjectives? Yeah that's right, tons!
The thing is, Judesty's example is just artificial EFL textbook speak. Most conditions in English speech are not usually sentences at all and may only be a clause:
A) Can I go out Mum?
B) If you clean your room you can.

The 3 or 4 conditional sentences so beloved of textbooks and teachers are not particularly common in speech. The selection is arbitrary and owes more to exemplification than real world language. If I was a student I would pay more attention to clause phrases containing if (if you want). Some common utterances aren't even phrases; if possible, if necessary, if certain.

P.S. _If I were_ is often said to be more correct than  _If I was_ which is nonsense. YOu can't have more or less correct really can you? In fact this is a social judgement not a linguistic one. Both are correct.


----------



## judesty

thanks for your answer


----------



## Outsider

Tongue Tied said:


> [...] to say it isn't a conditional but a perfect form, i.e, doesn't contain the idea of a condition is nonsense.


Good, because nobody has said that.

Just in case, let me clarify that when I wrote "that's not a conditional" I meant that the _verb_ is not in a conditional _tense_.

I said nothing about sentences. Actually, I do think the full sentence is a conditional _sentence_. But not all verbs in conditional sentences are in the conditional tense ("the conditional", for short).


----------



## lineaadicional

judesty said:


> But If I wan to say... Si yo fuera rico hubiera viajado a Londres....that is a conditional isnt it??? or not?
> please explain me.
> 
> Thanks


 
Pero incluso en español eso suena raro. Yo diría

*Si fuera rico* (entonces)* viajaría a Londres*

o bien

*Si fuera rico YA hubiera viajado a Londres*

Tu original no me suena bien aunque no sé si decir que es incorrecto.


----------



## Tongue Tied

Outsider said:


> I meant that the _verb_ is not in a conditional _tense_..



No, you're right, you were not specific regarding what you meant by 'the conditional' so I had to guess. But I can guess at what what Judesty meant as Spanish students are often taught 'the conditionals' which of course is not exactly specific either. 'If' clauses contain conditions which do not even require verbs in many cases. What is terribly misleading and incorrectly called the conditional actually occurs in clauses which do not contain any condition at all! 

As far as I know there are only 2 tenses in English (Present and Past) so what is the Conditional Tense? That's actually mumbo jumbo. It doesn't exist, like 'the imperative' or 'the future'. 'Would' is a modal verb (sometimes used in conditional _sentences_ - but almost never occurs in 'if' clauses, the clause containing the condition. I can think of exceptions "If you would".
The fact is that "If I had been rich." can be categorised as a conditional clause (which contains a perfect aspect, just as a 'result' clause contains a modal verb, ANY modal verb, which is why calling 'would' 'the conditional' or talking about a 'conditional tense' is mumbo jumbo, confusing to students and technically speaking totally untrue.


----------



## Outsider

Tongue Tied said:


> As far as I know there are only 2 tenses in English (Present and Past) so what is the Conditional Tense? That's actually mumbo jumbo. It doesn't exist [etc.]


I don't think this is the proper forum for such a discussion. I am merely using terminology that is *standard* in the grammar of English and many other languages, including *Spanish*. You are free to not like it, but that is not my concern.


----------



## Tongue Tied

"I don't think this is the proper forum for such a discussion"

Isn't this the grammar forum? Can't we discuss grammar here? Where is the 'proper' place then? I could 've sworn it was but I'm new here so maybe it isn't 'proper'. Forgive me if you will. 
Just to wind this up then. You may be 'merely' using standard terminology but it is rather obsolete I prefer to attempt to be more precise rather than conforming to traditional terminology which is as I say terribly out of date and thoroughly confusing to most students. Another thing is I don't understand how you can conflate British and Spanish terminology, they are two entirely different systems and just because some terms coincide doesn't mean they refer to identical items. In fact we have primary distinctions of thought and other modern terminology which has no equivalent in Spanish. Finally, 'standard' doesn't necessarily mean correct, it means generally held. It's not a question of liking, it's a question of being as up to date and informed as possible - in other spheres it is called being professional - or open to change - in order to offer as sound advice as possible. For my part I long ago abandoned such terminology and I don't mind being out on a limb, I'm in excellent company. Anyway, if you do not wish to discuss the issue, don't. No one is forcing you. Others surely can if they wish. As long as it's the proper place mind you. 

no offence I hope? I just don't agree and don't mince about.


----------



## canarias

Let's keep on spliting hairs:

*"If I would have been rich..."*


----------



## aceituna

canarias said:


> Let's keep on spliting hairs:
> 
> *"If I would have been rich..."*



¿¿Eso es correcto??
A mí me suena muy mal... (tanto como "si yo habría sido rico" en español...).


----------



## lineaadicional

Tongue Tied said:


> If = a condition of sorts , to say Judesty's phrase isn't a conditional _sentence_ is correct, to say it isn't a conditional but a perfect form, i.e, doesn't contain the idea of a condition is nonsense. Many English words have overlapping categories, the poster ought to know this, how many verbs are nouns and vice versa? How many verbs do you know that can be adjectives? Yeah that's right, tons!
> The thing is, Judesty's example is just artificial EFL textbook speak. Most conditions in English speech are not usually sentences at all and may only be a clause:
> *A) Can I go out Mum?*
> *B) If you clean your room you can.*
> 
> The 3 or 4 conditional sentences so beloved of textbooks and teachers are not particularly common in speech. The selection is arbitrary and owes more to exemplification than real world language. If I was a student I would pay more attention to clause phrases containing if (if you want). Some common utterances aren't even phrases; if possible, if necessary, if certain.
> 
> P.S. _If I were_ is often said to be more correct than _If I was_ which is nonsense. YOu can't have more or less correct really can you? In fact this is a social judgement not a linguistic one. Both are correct.


 
I just got a question after have read all this debate ... and, by the way, I DO think this is the right space to discuss this issues but in case someone is not OK with all this stuff just should report it to one of the moderators and not complaining here (that exactly what I am doing hehehe)

Well, my question.
In Spanish you can say:

a) Mami, ¿puedo salir a jugar?
b1) Si limpias tu cuarto puedes salir a jugar
b2) Si limparas tu cuarto podrías salir

Is any difference in English as well? How it would be?
Thanks!


----------



## mhp

aceituna said:


> ¿¿Eso es correcto??
> A mí me suena muy mal... (tanto como "si yo habría sido rico" en español...).


 *would have for had**.*  In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use _would have_ in place of the subjunctive _had_ in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as _If she would have_ (instead of _if she had_) _only listened to me, this would never have happened._ But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amount—but 16 percent—accepts it in the sentence _I wish you would have told me about this sooner._

  Read more in: http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html


----------



## Tongue Tied

How about these? What do you all think? 0,1,2 or 3rd conditional?

1 If he would come, I'd ask him.
2 If he'll come, I'll ask him.
3 If he's come, I'll ask him
4 If he's going to come I'd ask him
5 If he could come, I'd ask him.
6 If he can come, I'll ask him
7 If he might come, I'd ask him
8 If he comes, I'm going to ask him
9 If we hadn't been going to ask him, he wouldn't have been invited
10. If he hadn't been invited (by us), he wasn't going to get an invitation at all


You can make plenty more...
Let me assure readers that all of these are correct. Instead of thinking about how to make a limited set of unlearnable conditional sentences (largely because of the confusing terminology) attention would be better employed learning about the meanings of modal verbs within clauses...
We don't often use sentences in speech anyway (Biber et al, 2000, Lewis, 1996, Nattinger and De Carrico1998)

By the way, outsider, the terminology you are so happy with is standard among textbooks and teachers, true. but not in the research discipline of Applied Linguistics - and that includes the most recent research in corpora linguistics and grammar. Check out the Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English, a largely objective and statistical work covering  20 years study. I think Quirk, our arguably greatest grammarian has also abandoned traditional terminology. Ok, now I'll be quiet. B seeing you guys...


----------



## Tongue Tied

Lineaadicional :

In Spanish you can say:

a) Mami, ¿puedo salir a jugar?
b1) Si limpias tu cuarto puedes salir a jugar
b2) Si limparas tu cuarto podrías salir

A) Mum, can I go out to play
B1) If you clean your room...(you can / go out / to play) [normally all of the words in brackets would be optionally ellipted] 
B2)  If you cleaned your room you COULD go out (but...)

Yes we do make a similar distinction usually done through past tense forms as in this case where the act, the possible act, is seen as remote, not very likely.
We use past tense forms when possibility is seen as remote in the mind of the speaker. This is a general rule of thumb for any such use, not just for hypothetical futures.


----------



## canarias

Wow! Thank you!


----------



## Tongue Tied

Linea add:
In Spanish you can say:

a) Mami, ¿puedo salir a jugar?
b1) Si limpias tu cuarto puedes salir a jugar
b2) Si limparas tu cuarto podrías salir

a) Mum, can I go out to play?
b1) If you clean your room... (you can/may/could / go out / to play.) Normally ellipted
b2) If you cleaned your room...(perhaps / you could / might (be allowed / to ) N. ellipted but other possibilities depending on what one has in mind.

b3) If you 'd clean your room
(This "you'd" is of course 'would', not 'had')
in fact other possibilities arise...


----------



## aceituna

mhp said:


> *would have for had**.* In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use _would have_ in place of the subjunctive _had_ in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as _If she would have_ (instead of _if she had_) _only listened to me, this would never have happened._ But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amount—but 16 percent—accepts it in the sentence _I wish you would have told me about this sooner._
> 
> Read more in: http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html


 
Thanks!!


----------



## lineaadicional

Tongue Tied said:


> Lineaadicional :
> 
> In Spanish you can say:
> 
> a) Mami, ¿puedo salir a jugar?
> b1) Si limpias tu cuarto puedes salir a jugar
> b2) Si limparas tu cuarto podrías salir
> 
> A) Mum, canm I go out to play
> B1) If you clean your room...
> B2) If you cleaned your room you COULD go out (but...)
> 
> Yes we do make a similar distinction usually done through past tense forms as in this case where the act, the possible act, is seen as remote, not very likely.
> We use past tense forms when possibility is seen as remote in the mind of the speaker. This is a general rule of thumb for any such use, not just for *hypothetical*  futures.


 
¡¡¡Ay mamacita chula!!!
Qué difícil. Definitivamente hay que o estudiar un curso de conjugación (únicamente conjugación) o ser nativo jajajaja


----------



## mhp

aceituna said:


> Thanks!!



 You’re welcome. I guess it’s my turn to say:  Es curioso nuestro idioma, ¿eh?


----------



## Tongue Tied

This is a general rule of thumb for any such use, not just for hypothetical  futures.

If you think about it ALL future reference is hypothetical. When we're really sure we use a present tense: I leave tomorrow. This is because ...?


----------



## Ivy29

judesty said:


> Please I want to know how to say...
> 
> " Si yo hubiera sido rico"
> 
> Is possible to say.... "If I would be a rich"
> 
> Thanks


 
*REMEMBER* that the past of the modals are MODAL+HAVE+PP (past participle).

Son oraciones condicionales las que empiezan por IF+ *Prótasis* y la subordinada (*apódosis*)= es would +have +pp.Tipo 4.

Ivy29


----------



## Zeli

I don't know about American English, but in the UK we'd say *if I had been rich* or *if I'd been rich*


----------



## judesty

I want to thanks you for the explications, i have a right idea of this question thanks again.


----------

