# mě/mně



## Setwale_Charm

I often here that this is pronounced like: mně. Is that true?


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## Jana337

Yes. In addition, we often say "mně" even where "mne" should be. Many Czechs have hard time picking the correct one in writing.  We use a nifty trick - comparison with tobě/tě/tebe - since we never mess up those.

tobě --> mně
tebe --> mne
tě --> mě


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## Setwale_Charm

So, in terms of pronunciation, you say "mně" in the first and third case and "mne" in the second?


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## cajzl

Have you meant the form "mě" of the personal pronoun "já" or generally the syllable "mě"?


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## Jana337

Setwale_Charm said:


> So, in terms of pronunciation, you say "mně" in the first and third case and "mne" in the second?


I think we colloquially say "mně" everywhere although we shouldn't. In formal speech, people would certainly (try to) pronounce them properly.



cajzl said:


> Have you meant the form "mě" of the personal pronoun "já" or generally the syllable "mě"?


If "you" is me , I think we can generalize it to the syllable "mě" because you often hear "mněsto" and "mněla" instead of "město" and "měla".


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## Setwale_Charm

Velmi dekuji, Janecka.


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## cajzl

The original question was not clear enough. The word "pronoun" was not used in it (only as a part of the word "*pronoun*ced" ).

For the syllable "mě" (měsíc, město, ...):

it can be pronounced either /mje/ or /mňe/ (the palatal consonants j and ň sound similarly after m).

In case of the personal pronoun "já" it is more complicated as there are several cases and the short/long forms.


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## Setwale_Charm

I was talking about this syllable in general. I have heard that it is pronounced /mňe/, except in Southern Cesko and Morava. where it is pronounced as /mje/.


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

There's an even nicer trick to remember the correct forms of the pronoun já, but it requires one to be acquainted with the Czech case order:

mě - two letters - 2nd and 4th case (i.e. genitive and accusative)
mně - three letters - 3rd and 6th case (i.e. dative and local)

It's just coincidence, of course, but it works.




			
				Setwale_Charm said:
			
		

> except in Southern Cesko and Morava


Aaaand, welcome to Hell.  The word for Bohemia is Čechy. Česko is the still-somewhat-controversial term that refers to the whole country. It's a bit like "England" vs. "Britain" or "Holland" vs. "the Netherlands".


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## Setwale_Charm

Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:


> There's an even nicer trick to remember the correct forms of the pronoun já, but it requires one to be acquainted with the Czech case order:
> 
> mě - two letters - 2nd and 4th case (i.e. genitive and accusative)
> mně - three letters - 3rd and 6th case (i.e. dative and local)
> 
> It's just coincidence, of course, but it works.


 
 I was talking about pronunciation , the cases when the actual mě s pronunced as mně.


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## winpoj

" I was talking about pronunciation , the cases when the actual mě s pronunced as mně."

I may be missing something here, but I'm sincerely convinced that "mně" and "mě" are and ought to be always pronounced the same.


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## cajzl

> ... but I'm sincerely convinced that "mně" and "mě" are and ought to be always pronounced the same.


It is not correct.

-mě- is pronounced either [mje] or [mňe], both (regional) variants are now considered correct

-mně- is pronounced [mňe] only


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## cajzl

> There's an even nicer trick to remember the correct forms of the pronoun já, but it requires one to be acquainted with the Czech case order:
> 
> mě - two letters - 2nd and 4th case (i.e. genitive and accusative)
> mně - three letters - 3rd and 6th case (i.e. dative and local)


This trick is not so good. It does not distinguish the short and long forms. The "Jana's trick" is much better. Maybe I should add "mi"-"ti":

tebe (sebe) - mne
tobě (sobě) - mně
tě (se) - mě
ti (si) - mi

It always works, even if you are not familiar with the cases (like my grandmother).

For example:

Věří ve *mne* (v tebe), věří, že ve *mně* (v tobě) něco je.
*Mne* (sebe) se neptej, *mně* (tobě) to neřekli.
Řekni *mi* (si) to!
*Mně* (sobě) to řekni!
...


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## Setwale_Charm

Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! said:


> Aaaand, welcome to Hell.  The word for Bohemia is Čechy. Česko is the still-somewhat-controversial term that refers to the whole country. It's a bit like "England" vs. "Britain" or "Holland" vs. "the Netherlands".


 
  Well, I was trying to say: Southern Czech rep. or South of the Czech Rep. Did I get it wrong?


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## winpoj

cajzl said:


> It is not correct.
> 
> -mě- is pronounced either [mje] or [mňe], both (regional) variants are now considered correct
> 
> -mně- is pronounced [mňe] only




In my comment, I went by what the Czech Language Institute says on its website, which is:

" Zájmeno _já_ má ve svém skloňování tvar, jejž vyslovujeme [mňe], ale  někdy píšeme _mě_, někdy _mně_."

What authority do you follow, Cajzl?


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## Setwale_Charm

winpoj said:


> In my comment, I went by what the Czech Language Institute says on its website, which is:
> 
> " Zájmeno _já_ má ve svém skloňování tvar, jejž vyslovujeme [mňe], ale někdy píšeme _mě_, někdy _mně_."
> 
> What authority do you follow, Cajzl?


 

Does it specify when?


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## winpoj

The standard pronunciation (spisovná výslovnost) of both "mě" and "mně" is [mňe], that is - always. Unless Cajzl has some more up-to-date information from an authority superior to or comparable with the Czech Language Institute.

As to the spelling, i.e. when to write "mě" and when "mně", it has been explained sufficiently in this thread, I suppose.

By the way, the CLI offers a free language advice service, you can ask them directly by e-mailing to: poradna@ujc.cas.cz


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## Jana337

Setwale_Charm said:


> Does it specify when?


In declensions of "já", "mně" and "mě" are pronounced "mně" according to the text.


winpoj said:


> The standard pronunciation (spisovná výslovnost) of both "mě" and "mně" is [mňe], that is - always. Unless Cajzl has some more up-to-date information from an authority superior to or comparable with the Czech Language Institute.
> 
> As to the spelling, i.e. when to write "mě" and when "mně", it has been explained sufficiently in this thread, I suppose.
> 
> By the way, the CLI offers a free language advice service, you can ask them directly by e-mailing to: poradna@ujc.cas.cz


According to Wiki, this seems to hold generally for the syllables mě/mně (not just for personal pronouns). Far from being an authority, I find it hard to believe. I certainly do not say "mněď" instead of "měď" and "mněsto" instead of "město" -  is my pronunciation dialectal?


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## winpoj

Interesting, Jana. Do you pronounce [mjesto] and [mjeď]? I certainly do pronounce them as [mňesto] and [mňeď]. Plus, never in my life - spanning more than three decades - have I heard the pronunciations you describe.

Am I a hideous _pragocentrista_?

Would you disclose your location?


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## Jana337

winpoj said:


> Interesting, Jana. Do you pronounce [mjesto] and [mjeď]? I certainly do pronounce them as [mňesto] and [mňeď]. Plus, never in my life - spanning more than three decades - have I heard the pronunciations you describe.
> 
> Am I a hideous _pragocentrista_?


 I have no reason to believe it. 



> Would you disclose your location?


I was born and raised in Silesia but you wouldn't tell unless you are a specialist. I speak accent-free Czech, the TV announcer sort.

I will poll my acquaintances. It is possible that I say "mě" because I subconsciously believe it is more correct.


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## cajzl

> The standard pronunciation (spisovná výslovnost) of both "mě" and "mně" is [mňe], that is - always. Unless Cajzl has some more up-to-date information from an authority superior to or comparable with the Czech Language Institute.


You did not write explicitly that you meant the personal pronoun.

Nevertheless according to all PČP I have, the syllable *mě* is pronounced either [mňe] or [mje]. *No exception is mentioned.*

I usually pronounce e.g. [mňel], [mňeký], but definitely [mješťák] and [mješťanský]. But I do not know why. I am from Prague (cajzl from Prágl).


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## winpoj

cajzl said:


> Nevertheless according to all PČP I have, the syllable *mě* is pronounced either [mňe] or [mje]. *No exception is mentioned.*



Dear cajzl (interesting choice of nickname for a Praguer),

You forced me to open my PČP (1993 edition) and it says on page 18:

"Písmeno ě ... po souhlásce _m _označuje výslovnost [ň+e]..."

This seems to corroborate my previous assertions. What are your sources?


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## Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!

Setwale_Charm said:


> Well, I was trying to say: Southern Czech rep. or South of the Czech Rep. Did I get it wrong?



Oh, I see. In that case, you were absolutely right. I took the liberty of assuming you meant Bohemia since it's rather uncommon to talk about "southern Czech Republic", plus you then mentioned Moravia separately. My apologies.


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## K.u.r.t

I too have never heard anone say [mjesto] but always [mňesto], not on TV, not in real life, be it Bohemia or Moravia. The first form sounds like it was influenced a bit by Slovak or Polish or whatever ...


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## cajzl

> You forced me to open my PČP (1993 edition) and it says on page 18:
> 
> "Písmeno ě ... po souhlásce _m _označuje výslovnost [ň+e]..."
> 
> This seems to corroborate my previous assertions. What are your sources?


AFAIK all previous editions of PČP say on page 18 or 19:

Písmeno *ě*
označuje
1. ...
2. ...
 b) po souhlásce *m* výslovnost _ň_ a _e_ (dovoluje se však i výslovnost _j_ a _e_); např. ....

I decided not to buy the PČP 1993 (škoda peněz  ). I think the changes in this edition are arbitrary and unjustifiable and their authors had no mandate for making them.


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## Jana337

My mother says [mjesto], [mjesíc] like me. I feel less weird.  Edit: My father - same. Even better. 



> The first form sounds like it was influenced a bit by Slovak or Polish or whatever ...


You could be right. Both countries are within spitting distance.


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## winpoj

OK, my horizons have broadened by learning that there are areas where "mě" is normally pronounced as [mje]. However, I'd still say that a non-Czech attempting the hard task of learning our language would be on a safer side if s/he always used the [mňe] version.

What I don't understand is this claim by Cajzl:
"I think the changes in this [1993] edition are arbitrary and unjustifiable and their authors had no mandate for making them."

I believe that the 1993 PČP was issued by the same institution with the same mandate as all the previous ones. Is it not so?


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## Tchesko

Jana337 said:


> In declensions of "já", "mně" and "mě" are pronounced "mně" according to the text.
> 
> According to Wiki, this seems to hold generally for the syllables mě/mně (not just for personal pronouns). Far from being an authority, I find it hard to believe. I certainly do not say "mněď" instead of "měď" and "mněsto" instead of "město" - is my pronunciation dialectal?


 
It would seem so...   To my Moravian ears, the [mje] variant sounds substandard, even though I can easily imagine it is used in some parts of the country.


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