# Rescue efforts in New Orleans



## modgirl

Food for thought:

_"The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne." _

_So they [journalists] libel as a "national disgrace" the most monumental and successful disaster relief operation in world history. _

_And federal troops and Guardsmen from other states cannot be sent to a disaster area until their presence has been requested by the governors of the afflicted states. _

_A better question -- which few journalists ask -- is why weren't the roughly 2,000 municipal and school buses in New Orleans utilized to take people out of the city before Katrina struck?_


Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

Edited to comply with President Everness' comments.


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## Everness

You are choosing to trust the word of some shady columnist of a newspaper in Pittsburgh. But how did the President of the United States of America describe his administration's response to Hurricane Katrina?

_Bush, who almost never publicly acknowledges mistakes, paid deference to the rage yesterday with a rare concession that his administration's efforts fell short in the opening days of the crisis. "*The results are not acceptable*," he told reporters on the South Lawn before leaving the White House for his tour of afflicted areas. _ 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/02/AR2005090200965.html

If the President says that we f*cked up, we f*cked up. Period.


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> If the President says that we f*cked up, we f*cked up.


 
Your words. 

How do you respond to: _The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne._

No matter what the US does, you abdor it. "Period."

I can't help but wonder what might happen if you took all your hatred for the US and channeled it into something positive.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> I can't help but wonder what might happen if you took all your hatred for the US and channeled it into something positive.



I might run for president in 2008!  Would you vote for me?


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> I might run for president in 2008!  Would you vote for me?


 
It completely depends on how you intend to run the government!


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> Your words.
> 
> How do you respond to: _The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne._



First of all, I don't know why your first post hasn't yet been deleted or edited because of copyright infringment....

Second, who is Jason van Steenwyk? The columnist says that he is a Florida Army National Guardsman? Have you met him? How do you know that the guy exists? How do you know that what he says is true? Because the columnist quoted him? Let's pretend for a second that he is a real person (what I really doubt). He is a just an Army National Guardsman! Jeeezzzzz!

Next time try a general or an admiral to take on the opinion of the Commander in Chief!


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> It completely depends on how you intend to run the government!



The first thing I'll do is name you Vice-President. I thrive on negative feedback...


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> First of all, I don't know why your first post hasn't yet been deleted or edited because of copyright infringment....


 
I quoted the source and certainly did not pretend the words were mine.

How is my post different than the many in which you include URLs to news stories and opinions?


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> Second, who is Jason van Steenwyk? The columnist says that he is a Florida Army National Guardsman? Have you met him? How do you know that the guy exists? How do you know that what he says is true? Because the columnist quoted him? Let's pretend for a second that he is a real person (what I really doubt). He is a just an Army National Guardsman! Jeeezzzzz!


 
Do you do this much questioning when you choose to believe what you read?!

You should scrutinize EVERYTHING you read, not just that with which you disagree!


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> The first thing I'll do is name you Vice-President. I thrive on negative feedback...


 
Ha!  Well, you'll have to wait a few years.  I'm not quite old enough.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> I quoted the source and certainly did not pretend the words were mine.
> 
> How is my post different than the many in which you include URLs to news stories and opinions?



You can only quote 4 or 5 sentences per post. I also thought that if you quote the source was enough, but it's not. But don't worry, when I become president of the USA things will change!


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> I also thought that if you quote the source was enough, but it's not.


 
Then why are your posts (that quote URLs similar to the one I did) still standing?





> But don't worry, when I become president of the USA things will change!


 
Platform, platform, platform!


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> Do you do this much questioning when you choose to believe what you read?!
> 
> You should scrutinize EVERYTHING you read, not just that with which you disagree!



Good point. But if I do it I'll have to change or adjust my opinions and prejudices. Thank you for the advice but I'm fine with just scrutinizing those things with which I disagree.


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## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> Good point. But if I do it I'll have to change or adjust my opinions and prejudices. Thank you for the advice but I'm fine with just scrutinizing those things with which I disagree.


 
So now, the truth is told!! 

It's very hard, I know.  But it's what's required to have a genuinely open mind.


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## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> Then why are your posts (that quote URLs similar to the one I did) still standing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Platform, platform, platform!




Like this one?




			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Some comments on today's news.
> 
> http://www.boston.com/news/weather/articles/2005/09/07/disease_fear_rises_in_new_orleans?mode=PF
> 
> _Mayor C. Ray Nagin, after viewing his battered city from the air, said 60 percent of its terrain remained flooded, down from 80 percent in the immediate aftermath of the killer storm. Beneath the water, he said, lay a nightmarish soup of bodies, mosquitoes, fuel, and contaminants._
> 
> Pardon my ignorance Ray and all of you, but I always thought that mosquitoes were airborne insects.
> 
> _Blanco said those who had stayed behind may have criminal records and fear incarceration, or may have mental health problems exacerbated by the destruction._
> 
> I never liked the multiple-choice format, especially when you only have 2 options. According to Louisiana’s governor, those who stay behind are either criminals or loonies. C'mon governor, I'm sure you can come up with some less negative categories, right?
> 
> _''We're going to coax them out," she said. ''We're bringing in chaplains to talk to them."_
> This is how religion gets a bad reputation. If you can’t convince people using common sense just use their faith to manipulate them. I have an idea. Why don’t the chaplains tell people that if they don’t leave God will send them a flood? I’m sure that would do the trick.
> 
> 
> *Moderator intervention:  please re-read the WR rules.  Here's a copy of the pertinent one,   If you wish to quote more extensively, please paraphrase instead, or use multiple posts.  Your commentaries are welcome, but we must deal with the realities of copyright law. All deleted quotations are visible in the link posted above.   *
> _....._
> Hey Brady, so you are going to use food to lure them out, right? You are talking about stray pets left behind, right?
> 
> _.....
> _
> Embed? Don’t get me wrong but can’t we put sex on hold for a while?
> ....
> 
> Lifetimes? I think Bobby needs a refresher for addition skills.
> 
> _...._
> Well, either kids had sex prematurely or Fleming believes that no children have died.
> _...._
> The cover-up operation has officially started. I’m sure that governor Blanco has too many skeletons in her closet.
> _...._
> I hope he's right. But let's not forget that these are the same guys who said almost 5 years ago they would catch Osama Bin Laden.


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## Jonegy

Now, now, children !  Do be nice   

Just one small comment for Modgirl  -  If the responce was faster this time than in previous emergencies  -  Does this mean to say that other people have been left for 5 days without food or water ??  I doubt it very much or it would have hit the news over here as with all the hurricanes - not just the ones that affect the US.

Incidently, the way I heard it, (off CNN or NBC)  -  the police were first in around the third or fourth day  to "Protect Property".   This must have been such a relief to the poor  *******  who had another couple of days to wait before the first food and fresh water arrived.  The National Guard, I think, arrived after that. Naturally I apoligise if I'm wrong - but that's the way I rememer it.


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## swift_precision

Obviously, whether or not "this person arrived at this time to do such and such" is not relevant anymore.  What is most important is concentrating on the relief efforts and helping rebuild one of the greatest cities America and perhaps the world has ever seen.


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## modgirl

Jonegy said:
			
		

> I doubt it very much or it would have hit the news over here as with all the hurricanes - not just the ones that affect the US.


 
Quite frankly, news is reported just the way the agencies wanted it to be reported.  Almost anyone can turn any event we want into any angle we wish readers to perceive it.

Thus, it is very difficult to find the truth.  There are too many questions which haven't been answered, such as "Why was the governor's request for emergency aid not given immediately so that people could be helped sooner?"    

It's just so easy to point a finger at the federal government (which personally I love to do myself!), but in this case, there are many issues and questions  being skirted.


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## cuchuflete

Here are some questions to which I don't have answers:

1. If, as reported, the Mayor called for evacuation on the morning of the day before the hurricane hit, and a very large majority of the city's population left, were any means made available to transport people who didn't own vehicles? 

2. The National Guard reports to the governor of a state, I think, unless and until that command is given to the federal government. Is this true, or can the feds "take" command without the prior permission or agreement of the state government? What was the chronology of events this time? When the first guardsmen arrived, were they reporting to the state or to the feds? In other words, was the "rapid" response done under state or under federal control?

As to the credibility of words spoken by our commander-in-chief, they include, in sequence, high praise for Mr. Brown, followed by admissions of inadequacy of the relief efforts. Ready, fire, aim. The c-in-c then replaced Brown as director of the relief efforts, which appears to be a sign that they were not being directed to the satisfaction of our head of government. Now here is my final penultimate question: If dubya says and acts in a way that indicates clear dissatisfaction with the reliefs efforts, why should we prefer the version in the post-gazette?


4.  Since Florida events are being used as a point of reference, please provide details about the 20,000 people trapped without food, water in a single location in the middle of a flooded city during any recent Florida hurricane.  Then tell me you sleep better at night knowing that dubya has reduced  Fema leadership from a cabinet level position to one of many reporting farther down the bureaucratic chain of command and (?) control.


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## cuchuflete

Before anyone gets too enthusiastic about what a great job Fema did, under the stalwart leadership of so-called common sense conservative leaders, have a look at this:
http://www.nbc5.com/news/4946511/detail.html



> In a document that went out from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the agency asked for firefighters with very specific skills and who were capable of working in austere conditions. When they got to a center in Atlanta, they found out their jobs would be public relations."Our job was to advertise a phone number for FEMA," said Portage Assistant Fire Chief Bill Lundy. "We were going to be given shirts and hats with a phone number on it and flyers, and sent to shelters, and we were going to pass out flyers."



I suppose that is even more rapid mis-use of 'assets' than was ever experienced in any Florida disaster relief.

By the way, the Indiana volunteers reported that their first FEMA task was
an 8 hour course on sexual harassment and equal opportunity employment procedures.  This, of course, cut through all the squabling and finger-pointing between state and federal agencies.  While this mission critical training was going on, people in the Superdome were waiting patiently for more signs of presidential leadership.


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## GenJen54

Hi Cuchu, 

I'll answer (in blue) how I understand things based upon the media I have read/watced.

1. If, as reported, the Mayor called for evacuation on the morning of the day before the hurricane hit, and a very large majority of the city's population left, were any means made available to transport people who didn't own vehicles?

Transportation was _available_ via several hundred school buses which were owned by the City of New Orleans. Said transportation _was not made available_, however, and rides were never offered. The school buses remained unused and were eventually flooded. This was a complete failing on the Mayor's part to do everything he could to assist those who could not evacuate by their own means. 

2. The National Guard reports to the governor of a state, I think, unless and until that command is given to the federal government. Is this true, or can the feds "take" command without the prior permission or agreement of the state government?

There are reports (although I have not been able to find them) that the governor refused the President's urgings to declare a disaster BEFORE the Hurricane struck. In theory, this would have at least put more National Guardsmen and/or other types of assistance into "position" to help.

There is supposedly some kind of law wherein the Federal Government can usurp state authority on such matters. From what I understand, this was not taken because of some constitutional technicality. 

One of the problems was that the levies did not break until 24-hours AFTER the Hurricane had past. As much as I hate to listen to Bush, he was correct in saying that everyone (local, State, Federal gov't.) breathed a "sigh of relief" that NO did not take the direct hit when Katrina first struck. When the levees started to break, however, the real trouble started. This did not happen until sometime Monday, I believe.

What was the chronology of events this time? When the first guardsmen arrived, were they reporting to the state or to the feds? In other words, was the "rapid" response done under state or under federal control?

The rapid response was ultimately under Federal control, but by order of the State. There are several accounts of first-response rescuers and other NGO's ready to go into the affected areas. These people were allegedly "turned away at the gates" because the Feds, who were controlling access in and out of the City, said that the State had not asked for their help yet.


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## cuchuflete

Thanks GenJen...I'm a little confused by your last paragraph. If the feds had not yet been asked for help, how/why were they controlling access to the city?  It seems to be a logical contradiction, worthy of government at all levels. 


			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Hi Cuchu,
> 
> I'll answer (in blue) how I understand things based upon the media I have read/watced.
> 
> What was the chronology of events this time? When the first guardsmen arrived, were they reporting to the state or to the feds? In other words, was the "rapid" response done under state or under federal control?
> 
> The rapid response was ultimately under Federal control, but by order of the State. There are several accounts of first-response rescuers and other NGO's ready to go into the affected areas. These people were allegedly "turned away at the gates" because *the Feds, who were controlling access in and out of the City, said that the State had not asked for their help yet*.


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## cuchuflete

News reports say that Al Gore guaranteed payment for and arranged two flights carrying storm refugees from New Orleans to Tennessee on Sept. 3 and 4.  He had to call the Secretary of Transportation to get permission.  This was outside of anything done by dubya or Brown.  Had those two got wind of it, they would likely have arranged an emergency shipment of red tape to engulf the N.O. and Knoxville airports, thus demonstrating compassion and their ability to respond rapidly to a crisis involving citizens.


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## GenJen54

You can find a chronology of events in the WashingtonPost here. It still doesn't clarify the bureaucratic goings-on.


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## GenJen54

Sorry to post twice in a row. I found another interesting article here, which includes a complete chronology of events, as well as a comprehensive report of how the post-Katrina response was so calamitous from all three factions of government - state, local and Federal.

Yes, it is from a blog site. Yes, the blog site is particularly slanted in one political direction. However, the article pulls interesting and credible evidence from not only other respected media sources, but Federal and State government web sites. I can think of no better source than "straight from the horse's mouth."


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## cuchuflete

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Yes, it is from a blog site. Yes, the blog site is particularly slanted in one political direction. However, the article pulls interesting and credible evidence from not only other respected media sources, but Federal and State government web sites. I can think of no better source than "straight from the horse's mouth."


Thanks GenJen,

It's a right-wing slanted site, but it offers lots of information, seemingly without prejudice. In summary, it says that Nagin, the mayor, did some very wise things, and some very stupid and negligent things. The Governor's role is still unclear: we are not told what she knew, when she knew it, and what she did and might have done.  It does say that she contacted Bush _et alia_ two to three days before the storm hit New Orleans to ask for federal help!!

Most appalling is the incredible stupidity of FEMA. FEMA reports to Homeland Security, which has "Intelligence assets" which don't seem able to collect information from US television, or from the National Guard that was on site at the Convention Center. No wonder they have problems with the bad guys, when freely available information that was discussed in this forum seemed unavailable to their staff of experts.


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## cuchuflete

As a special gift to the FEMA apologists....



> *Bush* Takes Responsibility for *Blunders*
> 
> By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
> 
> WASHINGTON -
> President Bush said Tuesday that "I take responsibility" for failures in dealing with Hurricane Katrina



Bestest, most impressivest disaster response in history!!!  = "blunders, failures"




> OSTRICHES BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND
> 
> Fiction!  Ostriches do NOT bury their heads in the sand.


 http://www.ostriches.org/factor.html#head


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