# 2nd most important language in Israel



## Anatoli

I am interested in finding out the usage of non-Hebrew languages in Israel.  Israel has Hebrew and Arabic as 2 official languages.

Apart from Arab minority, how much focus is given to Arabic in Israel, is it taught at school by non-Arabs.

I know English is well-known in Israel. How much of English do you have to study?

Russian is very common with immigrants - about 1.1 mln people were born in ex-USSR. New arriving immigrants can take exams in Russian and be recognised. Is Russian the 3rd or the 4th most important language in Israel?

EDIT:

I really shouldn't have voted myself.


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## Shlama_98

I voted Arabic just because it's official along side with Hebrew I guess, but obviously I don't know any better so better ask someone who lives or lived there.

I know English is popular in Israel, and I can see Russian too, what about Yiddish?


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## MiamianIsraeli

I would say English because it's universal. As a native Anglophone who lives in Israel people normally insist on speaking to me in English. I often try to use a French accent when I speak Hebrew so that they think I'm French, just so that we can continue speaking Hebrew.


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## Nunty

Arabic, definitely, and I"m learning it now. 

The Jewish and Arab populations are so separated and what contact there is, is frequently very unequal: Jewish service providers or government workers or soldiers or cops and Arabs who receive services or are suspected and questioned of something. I know that sounds like a caricature, but it is my experience and what I observed as a Jewish child and adult and later - even more extreme - as a nun.

What does this have to do with language? There can be no dialogue without words and it is very unfair to place all the language learning onus on one side, particularly the side which is "weaker".


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## panjabigator

Arabic.  It's the next official language, and is also one one of the most important languages in the region.  It would be foolish to ignore it.


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## yuvali

The fact is, that although Arabic is being taught in schools in the 7th grade until the 10th grade (by non-native arabic teachers), it is not mandatory for the final exams (when I found that out back in the 7th grade, some 12 years ago, I lost any glimpse of motivation I had to learn that language, and decided it wasn't really necessary for me to even show-up in those classes, and many others did the same...). English is being taught from 4th grade to the final grade, and is considered one of the most important subjects of study, not only in highschools; all tests for universty and college applications ("SATs", yaanoo) have a major part for testing your english knowledge and understanding, and good english is a requirement for most academic institutes.

The fact is, that most hebrew-speaking jewish Israelis living here, see learning Arabic as unrequired (self included) - from all the people I know, who are not native-arabic speakers - 99% can't speak Arabic. Most Israeli-arabs, though, can speak fluent Hebrew (and English), and most casual-conversations between "us" and "them" are in Hebrew (or English). I think it would be much more meaningful if an Israeli-Arab won't know hebrew, than if an Israeli-jew won't know Arabic.

Though, "formely" It's the second language, this is from historical reasons only, and in practice, if there's any language that desrves this title, it's English...


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## elroy

Your question is a little ambiguous. You ask about the 2nd most important language "in Israel," yet some of your comments - and the last poll option - indicate that you're only interested in language use among native speakers of Hebrew. Yes, they form the majority in Israel, but remember that the Arab minority is sizable (about 20% of the population), so if you're talking about all of Israel - including Jews and Arabs - then Arabic is the obvious answer since it's the native language of one out of every five citizens of Israel. Russian is also spoken by a sizable minority. 

But like I said, I get the impression you're interested only in language use among Hebrew natives. Given the linguistic complexity of Israel, it would be helpful for you to clarify exactly what you mean. 

Nun-Translator and Yuvali have given you good descriptions of the situation. I especially applaud Nun-Translator's accurate and concise description of the linguistic inequality in Israel. It's not an exaggeration to say that the status of Arabic as an official language is symbolic at best. One need only look at road signs and most other public postings and announcements to see that if text is translated into another language it's usually English. I am always bemused at the airport, where some signs are translated into Arabic but others are not - but everything is translated into English. I wonder how they make their decisions - are there certain things Arabs aren't likely to read or simply don't need?

So yes, among Hebrew natives English is far more widely used than Arabic (or Russian, for that matter).  When I have to speak to a Hebrew native and my Hebrew does not suffice, I switch to English and not to Arabic.

I'm not sure what the relative importance of Russian is among Hebrew natives.  I imagine that it's also not taught with any rigor.


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## Anatoli

Thanks evrybody for your posts.

Elroy, the other posters and you have answered my query very well. I am not that familiar with the linguistic situation in Israel, only from hearsay and from Wikipedia articles, I came across a lot of Russian texts from Israel, read and talked about experiences of Russian immigrants and lately, because of my interest in Arabic, wished to find out more how things are with Arabic.

Correct me if I am wrong but if I meant importance of a second language given by both the government and Hebrew natives, the answer would be English but if we talk about objective importance, it would be Arabic - 1) because of all neighbouring Arab nations, 2) because of the largest minority present in Israel. However, Arabic is understudied and services given to Arabic natives in the Arabic languages in Israel, judging by your posts are inadequate.


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## elroy

Yes, I would agree with all of that.


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## Aoyama

> Arabic, definitely, and I"m learning it now.





> Arabic. It's the next official language, and is also one one of the most important languages in the region. It would be foolish to ignore it.





> Russian is also spoken by a sizable minority.


All the above statements are true, but are partial to what the reality is in Israel, I dare think.
If Hebrew is the first language in Israel, English will no doubt be the second, _Russian the third_, Arabic the fourth, though Arabic is  one of the _three_ official languages of the state and can be found on coins, banknotes and stamps. A sizable number of the population speaks Arabic as the mother tongue (including Jews) but to me, Russian outnumbers Arabic. I stand to be corrected, if I am wrong.


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## Nunty

Aoyama said:


> All the above statements are true, but are partial to what the reality is in Israel, I dare think.
> If Hebrew is the first language in Israel, English will no doubt be the second, _Russian the third_, Arabic the fourth, though Arabic is  one of the _three_ official languages of the state and can be found on coins, banknotes and stamps. A sizable number of the population speaks Arabic as the mother tongue (including Jews) but to me, Russian outnumbers Arabic. I stand to be corrected, if I am wrong.


Well, if I may say so, I'm afraid you are wrong.

"Russian outnumbers Arabic"? Where? Are you talking about the entire country or the Jewish population? The primarily/exclusively Jewish cities and towns, the primarily/exclusively Arab cities and towns, or the total? In addition, from when is there even a sizeable Russian-speaking minority in the State of Israel (i.e. from 1948 onward)? The last few years, that's all.

English is perceived by most native Israelis, Arabs and Jews, as the "get-ahead" language. Not surprising: it has become the international language for business, science and technology. It is therefore most taught and -- not the same thing -- most studied. Since it is, for better or worse, perceived as the world's _lingua franca_, most of the government's print items _that are destined for foreigners and newish immigrants _include English translations.

Your ranking of language importance is perhaps true for the Jewish population of Israel, but not for the Arabs. Of course, each person's reply depends on her definition of "importance". 

Where did you get your information that there are _three_ [your emphasis] official languages in Israel? The common perception here is that there are two _official_ languages; English may have honorary status, but it is not _official _(although two or three English words do appear on our money). For example, in the Knesset only Hebrew or Arabic may be used for official speeches; because Arabic is not understood by most Jewish MKs, the Arab MKs speak in Hebrew. In any case, English, Russian and Amaharit are not permitted. I believe that a 1982 law made Hebrew the official language of Israel.

According to the CIA's World Factbook: "Hebrew (official), Arabic used officially for Arab minority, English most commonly used foreign language."

Have you lived in Israel or is your description of the reality here based on print and other sources? I was born here, my father was born here, his parents were born here. My description of the reality is based on the lived experience of my family and my personal experience, along with other sources. I haven't asked, but I am sure that Elroy's family goes back farther than that. It is interesting that, as far as I can tell, four Israelis contributed to this thread: three natives (an Arab and two Jews) and one Jewish immigrant. Of us four, two voted for English and two for Arabic as the second most important language in Israel.

I just spent quite a long time on the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics site. I found no demographic breakdown by language group (though I e-mailed a query), but I did find these numbers from October 2006:

Jews, non-Arab Christians, non-declared religion: 5,684,700
of whom 5,377,800 are Jewish
Christian and Muslim Arabs: 1,407,700

The reality in Israel, to borrow your phrase, is highly subjective and contingent on extremely local demographics. Just one example: Our monastery is in the Jewish part of Jerusalem, the New City. The neighborhood that borders one wall is primarily Arab and Arabic is the language you hear in the street. The neighborhood on the other side is Jewish and Hebrew is the language that you hear in the street. The neighborhood across the street has a strong Anglo-Saxon immigrant population; you are as likely to hear English as Hebrew in the street.

This thread is very interesting, but I would like to hear -- maybe from the thread starter -- what we are talking about when we say "important".


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## Aoyama

Well, we are not going to call the CIA about this matter.
But to start with the end, and to give Anatoli the kind of answer he might have expected somewhere, it is *true* to some extent, *that Russian is the second language in Israel*. See below.
No one here will lessen the importance of Arabic in Israel, as the second official language of the country.
English is NOT an official in Israel, right, though it is, _de facto_, as the modern _lingua franca_ of our time, the first foreign language taught everywhere. Anyone coming to Israel will notice trilingual signs everywhere, in Hebrew, Arabic and English.
But legally, it is not an official language.
When it comes to demography, Israel, at the end of 2006, had a total population of 7,1 million. To make things simple (but I can give you the exact figures), 22% of the total population is of _russian origin_, a wee little less than 20% is of arab origin (though I don't personally like this expression, we are talking about Israelis here ...). That would make Russian the second _mother tongue_ in Israel, by virtue of numbers.
You are saying that Hebrew and Arabic are the only languages spoken (allowed ?) at the Knesset. Well, I remember M.Flato-Sharon (of ill fame) speaking French at the Knesset and being translated (at his own expense) by a translator ...
In my salad days, at the end of the 60ies, I used to go to the movies in Israel, where subtitles were in Hebrew, Arabic, and ...French for English speaking movies, replaced by English for french movies ... I have not been to the movies for years in Israel, but I guess French subtitles have been replaced by Russian subtitles.
One last thing : in an israeli (arab) movie (forgot the title), depicting the arrival of a new Russian emigrant who comes to live in Haifa, renting a room in a building where an Arab family lives. He will eventually fall in love with the daughter, make her pregnant and ... die before the child is born, being killed while on duty in the army ...
Well, there is one poignant scene where this Russian young man (who doesn't speak Hebrew well) is invited at the table of this family. Everybody speaks Hebrew (and Arabic), he tries to speak and the father corrects his mistakes, saying to him "what an irony, here I am, an Arab, teaching Hebrew to a Russian Jew". A joke, but a message of hope...


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## Nunty

I'm not going to get in a fight about this. I don't know where your figures come from; mine are from the Central Bureau of Statistics. Also, the question, at least in terms of the thread title, is not what is the second most spoken language in Israel, which is the most common mother tongue, but which is the most important.


The film you are referring to is חצוצרה בוואדי, _A Trumpet in the Wadi, _based on the book of the same name by Israeli (Iraqi-Jewish) human rights activist, Sami Michaeli.


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## Aoyama

I would have ill grace to fight with anybody, most especially with you, of all people.


> the question, at least in terms of the thread title, is not what is the second most spoken language in Israel, which is the most common mother tongue, but which is the most important


Could be, we should ask Anatoly ...

Thank you for the title of the movie and the details (that I did not know). A good movie, to be seen.

Figures from the Jewish Agency (but the CIA may have different numbers) :
Russians Emigrants arriving in Israel : 1971-88 = 200 686
1989-98 = 1 310 007
1999 ?
2000 = 51 000
2001 = 33 000
2002-2005 = 80.000 (estimates)
roughly 1 680 000 (but chidren were also born in the mean time, speaking Russian ...), a figure different from what is stated above this thread.


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## Nunty

The Central Bureau of Statistics is an Israeli agency, attached to the prime minister's office; it is not the CIA. The one sentence in my post about "official language" was from the CIA's Factbook. The numbers are from our very own CBS and date from two months ago.


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## Aoyama

Of course, I was joking. The CIA may _still_ have different (and who knows _wrong)_ numbers. The 7.1 million total population figure is fresh from ... this morning, seriously.


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## Aoyama

> I know English is popular in Israel, and I can see Russian too, what about Yiddish?


That is also a good question.
Yiddish has lost much ground in Israel. After WW2, Yiddish and Polish were widely spoken in Israel (much more than Russian) together with German. This started to change in the mid-seventies, first with the slow disappearance of the old (war) generation, the coming of the Russian immigration and the increase of the Sabra generation. French was also (still is in a way, but less than before) an important language in Israel, with the arrival of North African Jews (mainly Moroccans plus Agerians and Tunisians). 
Yiddish is now getting a new life in Europe and in the US .
After Hebrew, English, Russian/Arabic, one could reasonably say that French is fifth, in a close tie with probably Spanish (but I'd vote for French), followed by a multitude of other languages, Rumanian, German, Polish etc.


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## panjabigator

This is off topic, but I don't believe Yiddish is getting a second life anywhere.

Are both official languages taught in school and do students have the right to choose their medium of instruction?


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## Aoyama

> This is off topic, but I don't believe Yiddish is getting a second life anywhere.


Well, I guess it is, in a way. Yiddish is taught at some universities (especially in France). Theater companies reviving Yiddish plays can be seen in Europe, both eastern and western. There is also a recent conversation book Yiddish<->Japanese ... But a limited revival, for sure.



> Are both official languages taught in school and do students have the right to choose their medium of instruction?


That is also an interesting and pertinent question. I can try to give some elements for answer. Some one more in tune with israeli life might give us a more thorough information .
As far as I know, Israeli Jewish children are taught in Hebrew but have to study Arabic as well ( to what extent is this compulsory, I don't exactly know, I guess it _is_). Israeli Arab children are taught in Arabic but _must _have classes in Hebrew. The simple fact is that practically _all_ Israeli Arab children master Hebrew, which is not true for the other side ...


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## Nunty

Yiddish is one of the languages we spoke at home, along with Hebrew and English. (My father spoke Arabic fluently, as did my grandparents, like many of their contemporaries, but I'm only learning it now in mid-life.) My early education was not in the State system, but in the independent _haredi _school system. My parents chose to send me to a Yiddish kindergarten, but to a grade school where the language of instruction was Hebrew.

Yiddish is a very minor language in Israel,(*) spoken mostly in the _haredi_ and _yerushalmi_ neighborhoods in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak and, more recently, in some of the newer _haredi_ towns that have sprung up in the middle of the country to allow young couples affordable housing.


(*) EDIT: If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that, numerically, there are more Amharic speakers than Yiddish speakers in Israel today.


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## yuvali

Hey.



> Are both official languages taught in school and do students have the right to choose their medium of instruction?


Hebrew grammar is being taught in schools from the first grade to the last, and students are tested in the final exams for it.

Arabic (as I mentioned in my other reply) is being taught from the seventh grade to the ninth grade (out of a total of 12 grades), and is not included in the finals. I'm almost sure students can choose to "extend" their arabic learning in school, but they rarely do so. If by "medium of instruction" you mean the nationality of their teacher, then no, they can't choose it.

As the nun mentioned, the whole subject is demographic dependent, as in some areas where there is a large population of arabs, Arab is widely spoken, and maybe the issues of teaching Arabic in schools is different "over there". 

(Note, that we are not talking about Palestinians living in the territories. Those have their own schools and their own educational system, I think).


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## Aoyama

> (Note, that we are not talking about Palestinians living in the territories. Those have their own schools and their own educational system, I think).


Luckily and evidently they have ... They even have universities, it seems ...


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## panjabigator

yuvali said:


> If by "medium of instruction" you mean the nationality of their teacher, then no, they can't choose it.



By medium of instruction, I am referring to language.  Can students choose if they want a Hebrew medium, English medium, or Arabic medium?


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## Nunty

panjabigator said:


> By medium of instruction, I am referring to language.  Can students choose if they want a Hebrew medium, English medium, or Arabic medium?


No, they cannot in the State system. There is even great difficulty if parents want their children to attend a school other than than the one close by, though that is slowly changing. In the _haredi_ independent system parents can choose Yiddish or Hebrew, but most of the schools teach in Hebrew.

There is a small, slowly growing movement of non-religious independent schools "on the Jewish side", but these are not language-based and due to the question of fees are reserved to the better off families.

There is a small rural settlement of Arabs and Jews between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. There, I've been told, the children are taught in Arabic and Hebrew from kindergarten on up.


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## Nunty

Aoyama said:


> Luckily and evidently they have ... They even have universities, it seems ...


Yes, I can confirm that there are universities in the Palestinian Authority.


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## Aoyama

> I can confirm that there are universities in the Palestinian Authority


I was also joking there. We all know about Bir-Zeit university, in the West-Bank. But then, I don't know of any university in Gaza. There must be one.


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## amikama

I came across this Wikipedia article (marked as "featured article") and thought the Hebrew readers here would find it interesting and informative


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## Aoyama

Very pertinent, rav todot.


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## chaya

Amikama - thank you for referring to the Wikipedia article it was most interesting.  

 May I mention Ladino ( Spaniolit) as one of the languages widely used in my own experience .  I have also stayed with  Kurdish-origin families where a form of Aramaic is  still in everyday use.  Can anyone expand on these languages with reference to our debate?


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## Anatoli

I didn't mean to cause a heated debate about the second language preference in Israel. It's understandably sensitive like everything else related to languages, and interracial relationships in this part of the world.

I read a lot of feedback about Russians feelings very comfortable in Israel, they can take most exams in Russian and get their profession recognised without knowing a word in Russian. Interesting that they can even practice their jobs without any knowledge of Hebrew!

For some Russian media or some contests, Israel is almost considered part of Russia  So, e.g. if there is a song contest fro different Russian or Russian-speaking regions: Moscow, Ukraine, Kamchatka - Israel is usually present. Note, that most immigrants are with higher education, although most of them have no knowledge of Hebrew when they arrive.

In cities like Haifa or Tel-Aviv, Russian presence is very high, you go to a doctor, the doctor is Russian and Russian teachers are affecting the education system. Russian (Soviet) secondary education system is notoriously traditionally pretty strict and not relaxed like in Israel or in the West in general. In Israeli it's the case with the higher education.

When searching for Russian books online or for ordering, I often come across Israeli Russian language web-sites with ".il" domain names. I find some Israeli sites a good source of cheap books in Russian.

I hear Russian immigrants are now present in both Knesset and local administration.


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## Aoyama

One may also add that you can find huge supermarkets (hypermarkets) filled with russian products, with Russian speaking clerks, barely speaking Hebrew (the biggest one I saw, three years ago, was in Ashdod, about 50 km south of Tel-Aviv, a city where everything seemed to be written in Russian) in Israel. To a point where _pork_ meat (sausages, cured meat etc) is sold ... There is even Kvas made in Israel.


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## Aoyama

> May I mention Ladino ( Spaniolit) as one of the languages widely used


Ladino (the "Yiddish of the Sefaradim") has also lost much grounds, together with Yiddish. 
One way to figure out the weight of a language in Israel is to check the programs aired by Kol Israel (Israel National Radio). Kol Israel has programs in mainy languages (aired inland). When I was in Israel in the 60ies, there used to be news in Ladino every evening.


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## Aoyama

> I'm not sure what the relative importance of Russian is among Hebrew natives. I imagine that it's also not taught with any rigor.


This goes back to a post at the beginning of this thread.
I do not understand the expression "Hebrew natives". Does this mean _Hebrew language native speakers_ or _Jews_ in general opposed to _Arabs_ ?
The second part of what is assumed is also not clear to me. Does this mean that _Russian _is not taught with any rigor in Israel ?
When it comes to signs in Israel (road signs etc), though sometimes (but rather rare, I would dare say) the Arabic equivalent may be missing or insufficient, by and large multilinguism (trilinguism here) is respected.


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## panjabigator

Aoyama said:


> I do not understand the expression "Hebrew natives". Does this mean _Hebrew language native speakers_ or _Jews_ in general opposed to _Arabs_ ?



I interpret Hebrew natives as native speakers of Hebrew, i.e. 1st language speakers of Hebrew regardless of faith.


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## Anatoli

Let me clarify about relationship Russian language and Jews. Jews over the world prefer to speak the local language rather than Hebrew or Yiddish.

Knowledge of Hebrew or even Yiddish of Russian Jews is rather poor in the majority. So, Russian is one of the languages Jews speak, if their country of birth was one ex-Soviet republics, as far as I know there were/are around 2 mln Jews in ex-USSR. Another thing, wherever they lived in ex-USSR (Uzbekistan, Azerbaidjan, Ukraine), Jewish population were known to have poor knowledge of languages other than Russian (local languages), this applies to native Russians - Christian Orthodox.

Another thing: to be considered for immigration to Israel, it was often sufficient to have a Jewish relative, even a remote one or to be married to a Jewish person, a relative of a Jewish person. So, whoever, was unhappy with the Soviet regime and had a chance to go to Israel, used it. It's no surprise then, that among immigrants to Israel, there are people who are not really Jews and even who belong to different religions.

I am probably biased, because I am Russian but I get impression that Russian has gained a lot of ground in Israel and has a lot of influence in political and cultural spheres - the main reason being - it is used by the Jewish population itself, who don't consider themseves migrants in Israel.

Arab population in Israel, on the other hand, is not treated fairly and for obvious reasons, relationship between Jews and Arabs are not always friendly, so despite the number of Arabs in Israel, it seems they don't have as much influence, although it is the second largest language group in Israel.


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## Aoyama

> among immigrants to Israel, there are people who are not really Jews and even who belong to different religions.


That is very true, but it would still imply that in a couple, one of the members should be Jewish. Many "mixed" couples from Russia.


> Russian has gained a lot of ground in Israel and has a lot of influence in political and cultural spheres


True also, as there is a Russian emigrants party, duly represented at the Knesset.


> Arab population in Israel, on the other hand, is not treated fairly


That is a thorny question, to be treated with precaution. Israeli Arabs have access to neighboring Arabic TV networks (much more than before, due to the expansion of channels, internet etc), which compensate for the relative paucity of Arabic programs from Israel National TV network.


> (Arabic) is the second largest language group in Israel


Once again, that doesn't show in the figures. There are more Russian speakers in Israel than Arabic speakers, though undeniably Arabic is the second official language of the State and Russian isn't.


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## Anatoli

Aoyama said:


> ...
> Once again, that doesn't show in the figures. There are more Russian speakers in Israel than Arabic speakers, though undeniably Arabic is the second official language of the State and Russian isn't.


What is your source, Aoyama-san? I  read in the Russian Wikipedia: in Israel there are 1.3 mln Arabs (20%) and 1.1  mln repatriants from  ex-USSR (it's safe to say, they are all Russian speakers) - most of them are Jewish but there are (officially) over 300,000 non-Jewish immigrants from Russia, Ukraine, etc.


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## Nunty

One question keeps bugging me in this thread. Well, one among several, but anyway: What does each source mean by "in Israel"? Within the 48 borders, the 67 ceasefire lines, the 67 ceasefire lines adjusted (sort-of) in the 2006 התנתקות? 

We may be faced with comparing statistics about grapes when we are talking about pineapples. Or vice versa.


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## Anatoli

Nun-Translator said:


> One question keeps bugging me in this thread. Well, one among several, but anyway: What does each source mean by "in Israel"? Within the 48 borders, the 67 ceasefire lines, the 67 ceasefire lines adjusted (sort-of) in the 2006 התנתקות?
> 
> We may be faced with comparing statistics about grapes when we are talking about pineapples. Or vice versa.


I'd like to stay away from politics, if possible, at least in the linguistical part of WR. Let's say, not _in Israel_ but_ among Israeli citizens_.


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## Kelly B

I only wandered into this thread out of idle curiosity - I hope you don't mind if I have only this observation to contribute: it is entirely possible that your numbers do not disagree.


			
				Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> I just spent quite a long time on the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics site. I found no demographic breakdown by language group (though I e-mailed a query), but I did find these numbers from October 2006:
> 
> Jews, non-Arab Christians, non-declared religion: 5,684,700
> of whom 5,377,800 are Jewish


Given that there is no breakdown by language group, the 1 to 2 million Russian speakers Anatoli and Aoyama speak of certainly could be a subset of these. If this is the case, they would be outnumbered by the remaining 3 to 4 million Jews/non-Arabs with Hebrew/other as a first language, and they may or may not outnumber the 1.4M native Arabic speakers.

~ducking out to see if I can find something I actually know about to discuss~


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## Nunty

Anatoli said:


> I'd like to stay away from politics, if possible, at least in the linguistical part of WR. Let's say, not _in Israel_ but_ among Israeli citizens_.


Thank you, I am much happier with that formulation. 

In talking about language, as in any other serious conversation, it is important to know that everyone is using the same words to mean the same thing (a linguistic issue in itself). My statement was not a political one (we can go there in another venue if you insist) but a question for clarification about the statistics we are throwing around like confetti, or in other words, "Are we all really talking about the same thing."

Restricting ourselves to Israeli citizens means we are not talking about Palestinians in the PA and East Jerusalem, Armenians in East Jerusalem, foreign workers and foreign religious and diplomatic personnel, new immigrants who have not yet received citizenship (for some it can take up to 3 years) and immigrants (new or veteran) who are married to Jews but who have received permanent residency and not citizenship.

Is that the population we are talking about now?


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## Anatoli

I would include all permanent residents but exclude Palestinians if they are not seeking Israeli residence. Anyway, my source didn't specify, what categories are included.


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## Aoyama

> What is your source, Aoyama-san


First of all, please go back to my post # 14.
All figures are from the Jewish Agency. They can also be found in a french data book called *Quid* *2007*. Total figures would give 1.7-1.8 million Russian speakers in Israel, including, as you said, emigrants from Ukraine and other former Soviet Union states.
The figures date back from the first massive _aliyah_ in 1971.
It is also worth noticing that many immigrants/emigrants _left_ Israel, some of them to emigrate elsewhere (mainly the US), others to _go back_ to Russia.
A funny detail : Tel-Aviv bus company sells one day tickets where it is written _only_ in Russian that showing this ticket to some stores will give you a discount of some kind. Not knowing Russian will not give you the discount ...


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## chaya

TO NUN TRANSLATOR

surely Israels borders are as defined and accepted by the UN .


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## Flaminius

chaya said:


> TO NUN TRANSLATOR
> 
> Surely Israel's borders are as defined and accepted by the UN .



The territory of Israel has been defined in several ways by different authorities or in different times or both.  Nun-Translator's concern on the second page, I believe, was that different definitions of the territory are affecting demographic figures without us realising the bias.

Moderator's Note:
Please apply proper writing conventions.


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## Nunty

chaya said:


> TO NUN TRANSLATOR
> 
> surely Israels borders are as defined and accepted by the UN .


Actually, Chaya, they are not. The question of the borders of the State of Israel remains open. It is way off topic for this thread (and this forum), but PM me if you would like more details.

I forgot to use "multiquote", but yes, Flam, that is exactly what I was trying to say when I raised the question.


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## Aoyama

> The territory of Israel has been defined in several ways by different authorities or in different times or both. Nun-Translator's concern on the second page, I believe, was that different definitions of the territory are affecting demographic figures without us realising the bias.


Really ? Anatoly is right (in a way) when saying that we are speaking about Israeli citizens who may be in Israel _itself_ (officially internationally recognized borders) or also (but in the case of Russian speaking people, definitely a minority there) in _settlements_ in the West-Bank.
But then, speaking about Israeli citizens would exclude _Russian nationals _(quite a few) who are still Russian and have not asked for Israeli citizenship, though living permanently in Israel.
An endless debate , for sure.


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## elroy

Yes, clarification would be most helpful and beneficial in this thread!  That's part of what I was seeking in my first post.  That's also why I haven't voted in the poll; I'm still not quite sure what we're talking about.

All the same, let me respond to a few points that were directed at me or referred to something that directly affected me:


Nun-Translator said:


> I haven't asked, but I am sure that Elroy's family goes back farther than that. It is interesting that, as far as I can tell, four Israelis contributed to this thread: three natives (an Arab and two Jews) and one Jewish immigrant. Of us four, two voted for English and two for Arabic as the second most important language in Israel.


 Yes, my family does go back several generations.  However, I have as yet abstained from voting in the poll for the reasons stated above.


Aoyama said:


> I do not understand the expression "Hebrew natives". Does this mean _Hebrew language native speakers_ or _Jews_ in general opposed to _Arabs_ ?


 Obviously the former.  I used that expression instead of "Jews" because there are Jews who are natives of other languages and because Anatoli's question is linguistic and not religious or ethnic. 


> Does this mean that _Russian _is not taught with any rigor in Israel ?


 It means what the words in the sentence say.  I am not sure, but my expectation is that on average, Russian is not taught to natives of Hebrew with a whole lot more rigor than Arabic.  This was just a supposition, of course, and I am ready to be enlightened by those who are more informed than I. 


> When it comes to signs in Israel (road signs etc), though sometimes (but rather rare, I would dare say) the Arabic equivalent may be missing or insufficient, by and large multilinguism (trilinguism here) is respected.


 Are you kidding?  Except in  Arab parts of Israel, Arabic is virtually nonexistent on signs.


Aoyama said:


> That is a thorny question, to be treated with precaution. Israeli Arabs have access to neighboring Arabic TV networks (much more than before, due to the expansion of channels, internet etc), which compensate for the relative paucity of Arabic programs from Israel National TV network.


 Red herring?  Non sequitur?  There may not be a name for this type of logical fallacy.  Access to foreign television channels is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Again, I would ask Anatoli to clearly specify the following:

-which people group(s) he's referring to
-which area(s) of Israel and/or the Palestinian Territories he's referring to
-what exactly he means by "important"

Specific questions would be helpful and easier to answer.


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## MiamianIsraeli

elroy said:


> Are you kidding?  Except in  Arab parts of Israel, Arabic is virtually nonexistent on signs.


I disagree. It's also on the major interlocal roadways and all train stations.


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## elroy

MiamianIsraeli said:


> I disagree. It's also on the major interlocal roadways and all train stations.


 I said "virtually" - precisely to account for the few exceptions.


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## Nunty

Aoyama said:


> Really ? Anatoly is right (in a way) when saying that we are speaking about Israeli citizens who may be in Israel _itself_ (officially internationally recognized borders) [...]



There really are no "officially internationally recognized borders". I wish there were. I would make my city a much safer place to live (wherever it falls out eventually). This is a complex question and beyond the scope of this linguistic forum, but every since 1948 the borders of the State of Israel have been _de facto_ at best.



elroy said:


> [...]  Yes, my family does go back several generations.  However, I have as yet abstained from voting in the poll for the reasons stated above.[...]



Sorry, that was my sloppy writing. By "voting", I meant "expressed an opinion"; i.e., I was using the word in a larger, figurative sense. Probably not a good idea when there is a poll in this thread.


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## MiamianIsraeli

elroy said:


> I said "virtually" - precisely to account for the few exceptions.


But Elroy, all of the people moving between different cities at any time will see signs in Arabic.


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## elroy

MiamianIsraeli said:


> But Elroy, all of the people moving between different cities at any time will see signs in Arabic.


 True, and I'm glad that's the case, but it's hardly representative of the situation in the whole country.  I wasn't referring only to road signs.


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## MiamianIsraeli

elroy said:


> True, and I'm glad that's the case, but it's hardly representative of the situation in the whole country.  I wasn't referring only to road signs.


But it's more. All of the currency is printed in Arabic as well as Hebrew, from what I've seen government office signs are also in Arabic. Are you talking about non-official signage, like private businesses? That may take some time but isn't the reverse also true in that signage in Arab sections are only in Arabic?


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## elroy

MiamianIsraeli said:


> But it's more. All of the currency is printed in Arabic as well as Hebrew, from what I've seen government office signs are also in Arabic. Are you talking about non-official signage, like private businesses? That may take some time but isn't the reverse also true in that signage in Arab sections are only in Arabic?


  I never said Arabic was completely nonexistent.  I said it was _virtually_ nonexistent in response to the comment that "by and large multilinguism (trilinguism here) is respected," which in my opinion is laughably untrue.  Furthermore, I was only talking about signs, but I see that we've moved on to other areas. 

Yes, there are a few notable exceptions, a few acknowledgements of the status of Arabic as an official language - but it's also fair to say that unless you're traveling in your car or staring at 20-shekel bills all day long you're not very likely to come across any Arabic in non-Arab parts of Israel.

I was not only talking about "non-official signage."  I was referring to private businesses but also to public establishments - hospitals, post offices, banks, to name a few.

And since we've extended this discussion beyond signage, what about the Israeli passport?  Few documents are more official, yet not one word of Arabic appears in it (but of course everything is translated into English).  The same applies to the Israeli drivers license.  The national ID card does have Arabic, but that's an exception when it should be the norm.

In response to your question, no, the reverse is not true.  Yes, in Arab Israel some signs are in Arabic only, but quite a few are in Hebrew as well - a significantly higher percentage than that of Arabic signs in non-Arab Israel.


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## Nikola

What about in Predominantly Druze areas, are both languages used?


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## elroy

Nikola said:


> What about in Predominantly Druze areas, are both languages used?


 Druze (Druzism?) is just a religion.  There is no correlation between language use and religion among Arabs in Israel.

What I'm trying to say is that everything that has been said about language use in Arab Israel applies to all Arabs - whether Moslems, Christians, or Druze.


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## yuvali

elroy said:


> And since we've extended this discussion beyond signage, what about the Israeli passport?  Few documents are more official, yet not one word of Arabic appears in it (but of course everything is translated into English).  The same applies to the Israeli drivers license.  The national ID card does have Arabic, but that's an exception when it should be the norm.
> .



You make a strong point, but I just want to point-out that, a passport is, of-course, intended to be seen by people from different nationalities in different countries, so it must use a so-called "globally understood" language such as english; It is somewhat intriguing that there's not one arab word in the Israeli passport - but note that for the national ID card - only two languages are being used, Hebrew and Arabic, no english there...



> Does this mean that _Russian _is not taught with any rigor in Israel ?


Russian is not being taught in any school in Israel.


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## Nunty

It just occurred to me that not one of us has given even an glancing nod to Amharit, yet the Amharit-speaking population (immigrants and their children and now their grandchildren are starting to make an appearance). No signs in Amharit, no Amharit translation for services... Interesting thought, that's all. I am not suggesting that it's spoken in the numbers that Arabic and Russian are, just find it curious that it is completely under the radar.


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## MiamianIsraeli

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to touch a nerve.


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## Aoyama

> It just occurred to me that not one of us has given even a glancing nod to Amharit. [...] No signs in Amharit, no Amharit translation for services...


Amharit (or Amharic, as I learned to call it) has gained importance in Israel with the arrival of Ethiopian (Falachas) emigrants. It is a difficult language, at first almost unknown to outsiders. It is far from being anywhere close to being a second or third or fourth language in Israel. That being said, it deserves, undoubtedly, full recognition. I remember , in 2003, having seen at many town halls in Israel documents in Amharic about health care, housing etc. The National Museum in Jerusalem, the High Court and other official places all have visitor guides in Amharic. More could be done, for sure, but one should acknowledge the effort here.


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## elroy

yuvali said:
			
		

> You make a strong point, but I just want to point out that (no comma) a passport is, of course, intended to be seen by people from of different nationalities in different countries, so it must use a so-called "globally understood" language such as English. It is somewhat intriguing that there's not one Arabic word in the Israeli passport - but note that for the national ID card, only two languages are being used, Hebrew and Arabic - no English there...


 I of course recognize the practicality of including English; I just think Arabic should be included as well.

(I hope you don't mind a few corrections to your excellent English.)


Aoyama said:


> This thread is slowly shifting to a discussion on the (true or false) inequality perceived between Hebrew and Arabic in Israel.


  I don't consider this a shift.  The linguistic inequality in Israel, especially in light of the use of English, is pertinent to the discussion of the relative importance of various languages in Israel.


> For the passport, the rationale is limited because writing three languages on a traveling document might be unecessary or strange.


 I don't see why it would be strange, and  I don't think Arabic is any less necessary than Hebrew, if even only as a symbolic  recognition of the status of Arabic as an official language.  Both English and French are present in the Canadian passport, despite the fact that the percentage of French speakers in Canada is smaller than that of Arabic speakers in Israel.


> The European Union uses the languages of all members only on the first page, the rest is only bilingual, English and the language of the issuing country.


 What about Belgium, which has at least two official languages? 


> I guess that writing entries in Arabic would be pertinent if holders of Israeli passports were allowed to travel freely to neigboring countries... But then, Arab Israelis are, I think.


 No, we are not.  However, this argument is not valid for two reasons:

1. Hebrew is not needed either outside of Israel.
2. We are allowed to travel to Jordan and Egypt.


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## Aoyama

> Both English and French are present in the Canadian passport, despite the fact that the percentage of French speakers in Canada is smaller than that of Arabic speakers in Israel.


Not very important but 7-8 million French speakers in Canada, out of a population of 30 million ... And also, the Province of Quebec ranks as a state, not fully independant for sure, but still, having its own independant diplomatic representation in many countries (called the Délégation du Québec).
For Belgium, good question, I don't know if French and Dutch are written on Belgian passports.
This being said, Arabs in Israel have every right to be frustrated if they feel their language is not treated with fairness. Proposals should be made or measures should be taken to correct unsatisfying state of things.


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## Nunty

Aoyama said:


> Amharit (or Amharic, as I learned to call it)[...]



Is it Amharic in English? Sorry, I only know the word for it in Hebrew.



Aoyama said:


> [...]has gained importance in Israel with the arrival of Ethiopian (Falachas) emigrants.[...]



A word to the wise: When they first arrived here in the 1980s, the Ethiopian community asked that we not refer to them as "Falashas", which apparently has a negative connotation to them. The Falash-Mura, on the other hand, are Ethiopians who are ethnically Jewish, but whose ancestors converted to Christianity at some point. The question of their "Jewishness" is far beyond both my competence and the scope of this thread.



Aoyama said:


> [...]It is a difficult language, at first almost unknown to outsiders. It is far from being anywhere close to being a second or third or fourth language in Israel. That being said, it deserves, undoubtedly, full recognition. I remember , in 2003, having seen at many town halls in Israel documents in Amharic about health care, housing etc. The National Museum in Jerusalem, the High Court and other official places all have visitor guides in Amharic. More could be done, for sure, but one should acknowledge the effort here.



Take another look at those documents in Amharit the next time you visit our country. They are usually about welfare rights, housing for needy families, health care information at a basic level. In other words, they relate to the perceived needs of the Ethiopian community, relating to it as poor and uneducated. This is no longer necessarily the case, with a growing Ethiopian presence in the Army, at universities and in the service professions. 

Visitor guides to public institutions in Israel are volunteers. It is wonderful that Ethiopian volunteers offer to lead such tours, but this speaks more to their very strong sense of community identity than to any pluralism on the part of the administrators of these institutions.

Again, if anyone read my post carefully they would see that I was not suggesting that Amharit is a candidate for "second language" in Israel. I was simply commenting on the fact that none of us had even mentioned its existence.


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## elroy

Aoyama said:


> Not very important but 7-8 million French speakers in Canada, out of a population of 30 million ...


 Different sources give different statistics, but as you said the exact numbers are not important.


> And also, the Province of Quebec ranks as a state, not fully independant for sure, but still, having its own independant diplomatic representation in many countries (called the Délégation du Québec).


 I don't see how this is relevant. 


Nun-Translator said:


> Is it Amharic in English? Sorry, I only know the word for it in Hebrew.


 Yes, it is "Amharic" in English.


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## Nunty

There are a lot of misconceptions "out there" about the rights, responsiblities, privileges and drawbacks of being Arab or Jewish in Israel. _All_ Israelis are allowed to travel to Jordan and Egypt but to no other Arab countries. As far as I know, _no_ Israelis (at least none of those who are unwilling to risk arrest by going through an unofficial back door) are allowed to enter the Palestinian Authority (except that Christians are allowed to go to Bethlehem at Christmas).

If we're going to talk about the relative usefulness of a language outside Israel as an argument for it being included on the passport, Hebrew loses to Arabic on a numbers basis. If we're going to talk about giving more than lip service to Israel being a democratic country for all its citizens, both languages should be included, along with English. It would be only a minor design problem to accommodate three languages rather than two on the passport.

I just took a look at my identity card. The title of thing and words like "name" "father's name" and so on are in Hebrew and Arabic, but all the information is only in Hebrew. Elroy, is yours like that, too? What about ID cards issued in the PA: are they filled out in Hebrew, too?


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## Aoyama

Valuable informations here. The recognition of the importance gained by the Amharic speaking community is also worth noticing.
Speaking about visitor guides I meant both people and documents.
Amharit and Amharic are both correct it seems (Google) though Amharic is more frequent.



> And also, the Province of Quebec ranks as a state, not fully independant for sure, but still, having its own independant diplomatic representation in many countries (called the Délégation du Québec). I don't see how this is relevant.


Without getting into a meaningless quarrel, it _is_ relevant as French is supposed to be the _only_ official language in the Province of Quebec (though reality is a bit different). English is used here as an international language, French as the language of the Province.
This being said, one could easily envisionned Arabic entries on an Israeli passport, nothing to be shocked about.


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> I just took a look at my identity card. The title of thing and words like "name" "father's name" and so on are in Hebrew and Arabic, but all the information is only in Hebrew. Elroy, is yours like that, too?


 Yes, but I do know that for many Jerusalem Arabs the information is written in Arabic by hand next to the typed Hebrew.


> What about ID cards issued in the PA: are they filled out in Hebrew, too?


 I have to say I don't know the answer to that question, but I'll try to ask someone I know who has a PA ID card.


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## Aoyama

> The European Union uses the languages of all members only on the first page, the rest is only bilingual, English and the language of the issuing country.


(I am quoting myself here, sorry).
Well, in fact, EU passports are written in two languages (English and French) BUT each entry bears a number which sends to a page where all entries are translated in each languages of the community (in smaller type).
The Israeli passport could very well have this way of doing and have all entries translated in Arabic.
The Somalian passport is written in three languages ...


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## Yoni

I find the vote for 'No other language is important' quite astonishing. I wonder what that assertion is based on ... not the facts, that's for sure.

Yiddish is dying out, although older people originating from particular parts of Europe still speak it among themselves.

English is --supposed-- to be spoken, to some degree, by everyone: whether most Israelis' command of English is as good as some of them seem to believe, is another matter entirely


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## avok

*What about "Ladino" ???? The language of the Sephardic Jews with some Turkish spice ? The younger generation does not speak it ? *


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