# Persian: the most famous of all the universities in Iran



## ISLAMABAD

How would I say " the most famous of all the universities in Iran"?
مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاھھای ایران؟
Will there be an ezaafe before daaneshgaahhaa?


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## truce

ISLAMABAD said:


> How would I say " the most famous of all the universities in Iran"?


I would say:
مشهورترين دانشگاه ايران. OR شناخته شده ترن دانشگاه ايران. OR معروف ترين دانشگاه ايران OR مطرح ترين دانشگاه ايران.
And another way to say it:
مطرح ترين دانشگاه در ميان دانشگاه هاي ايران. OR مشهورترين دانشگاه در ميان دانشگاه هاي ايران OR مشهورترين دانشگاه در بين دانشگاه هاي ايران OR ...


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## colognial

It is how you would say it, i.e., with an _ezaafe_ each on 'the most famous', 'all' and 'universities'.


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## molana

*Superlative adjective:*
مشهورترین دانشگاه ایرانwithout ezaafe before daaneshgaah
مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایرانwith an ezaafe before daaneshgaahhaa
In this way, مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاه های ایرانwith an ezaafe before daaneshgaahhaa
For plural nouns such as مردم، ملت، خلق:
(خردمندترینِ خلق آن است که ازجنگ بپرهیزد(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe

*Comparative adjective:*
(خدمت پادشاهان، فاضل ترِ اعمال است(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe, because اعمال is plural.
(گرامی تر کس نزد من تویی(قابوس نامهwithout an ezaafe, because کس is singular.

Only, the structure of the first sentence is formal. All others are literary and rather old-fashioned, and for your sentence, choose among the translations given by truce.


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## PersoLatin

ISLAMABAD said:


> مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاھھای ایران؟


Strictly speaking, a superlative adjective like مشہورترین, covers 'all/همه', so the plural ھا and همه are not required, it can be simplified as مشہورترین دانشگاه ایران, with (only) one ezâfé on دانشگاه.


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## colognial

molana, I think the second example doesn't work. Neither does the last one in my view.


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## molana

colognial said:


> molana, I think the second example doesn't work.


No, it is not so.
(یاقوت سرخ در بلندترینِ منزلت *هاء*(=منزلت *های*) معادن است(کشف المجوب سجستانیwith an ezaafe
(بدترینِ فرزند*ان* آن است که از اطاعت پدر و مادر ابا نماید(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe
(سست ترِ *همۀ* خانه ها خانۀ عنکبوت است(تاریخ طبریwith an ezaafe+_همه_

Therefore, the structure of مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاه های ایران is _grammatically _correct, no matter that it is not in use any more.



colognial said:


> Neither does the last one in my view.


It must be read without any ezaafe. I corrected it. I found another example for this case:
(تمام تر جوانمردی آن است که چیز خویش را از آن خویش دانی و طمع از چیز خلق ببری(کلیله و دمنهwithout an ezaafe, because جوانمردی is singular.

I just repeat my statement here: Only, the structure of the first sentence in my previous comment is formal and, all others are literary and rather old-fashioned or even obsolete.


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## PersoLatin

molana said:


> *Superlative adjective:*
> مشهورترین دانشگاه ایرانwithout ezaafe before daaneshgaah
> مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایرانwith an ezaafe before daaneshgaahhaa
> In this way, مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاه های ایرانwith an ezaafe before daaneshgaahhaa
> For plural nouns such as مردم، ملت، خلق:
> (خردمندترینِ خلق آن است که ازجنگ بپرهیزد(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe
> 
> *Comparative adjective:*
> (خدمت پادشاهان، فاضل ترِ اعمال است(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe, because اعمال is plural.
> (گرامی تر کس نزد من تویی(قابوس نامهwithout an ezaafe, because کس is singular.
> 
> Only, the structure of the first sentence is formal. All others are literary and rather old-fashioned, and for your sentence, choose among the translations given by truce.


I think these are all fine, the plural versions have a slightly different meaning:
مشهورترین دانشگاه ایران The most famous university in (of) Iran -  (maŝhurtarin dâneŝgâh*e* Irân)
مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایران The most famous of universities in Iran - (maŝhurtarin*e* dâneŝgâhây*e* Irân)
مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاه های ایران The most famous of all universities in Iran - (maŝhurtarin*e* hamé*ye* dâneŝgâhây*e* Irân)
خردمندترینِ خلق آن است که ازجنگ بپرهیزد The wisest of (among) people is s/he who avoids war - (xeradmandtarin*e* xalq ân ast ké az jang beparhizad)


خدمتِ پادشاهان، فاضل ترِ اعمال است Service to kings, is the more clever of deeds. (xedmat*e* pâdŝâhân fâzeltar*e* aemâl ast)
گرامی تر کس نزد من تویی The dearer person to (before) me, is you. (gerâmitar kas nazd*e* man toŷ)


N.B. *خدمت پادشاهان، فاضل ترِ اعمال است* is equivalent to *خِدمتِ پادشاها ن، فاضل ترین عمل اَست* which is a clever way of using plural plus the comparative to get the superlative.


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## colognial

molana said:


> No, it is not so.
> (یاقوت سرخ در بلندترینِ منزلت *هاء*(=منزلت *های*) معادن است(کشف المجوب سجستانیwith an ezaafe
> (بدترینِ فرزند*ان* آن است که از اطاعت پدر و مادر ابا نماید(کلیله و دمنهwith an ezaafe
> (سست ترِ *همۀ* خانه ها خانۀ عنکبوت است(تاریخ طبریwith an ezaafe+_همه_
> 
> Therefore, the structure of مشہور ترینِ ھمۂ دانشگاه های ایران is _grammatically _right, no matter that it is not in use any more.



Thank you, molana.

I think the three examples you have used all show a singularity. The _ezaafe_, naturally, plays a big part in this. It establishes that singularity, that uniqueness of something when it is compared against others of its kind.

1/ The red ruby holds the highest station among [gemstones that come out of] mines.
2/ The worst kind of child is the child who refuses to obey its parents.
3/ The most precarious house is that which the spider builds.

In each example there is always one gemstone, one kind of child, one structure, that stands out among its own class or species.

In the same manner, مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایران creates the expectation that the speaker will have singled out one university (or one rank of university) by the time the sentence is complete. Which is fine. And it doesn't really make much difference then whether you say مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایران or مشهورترینِ همه ی دانشگاه های ایران.

My question is: how does a speaker of Persian say, for instance, 'the most famous universities in Iran are hard to get admission to'? How would you say it in your native tongue? Doesn't a translation of this English sentence automatically call for the _ezaafe_ to be removed? به سختی می شود به مشهورترین دانشگاه های ایران راه یافت


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## Per Gessle

colognial said:


> It is how you would say it, i.e., with an _ezaafe_ each on 'the most famous', 'all' and 'universities'.



I believe that the ezaafe is not required between "mashhurtarin-e hame" and "daneshgahha". But it is correct to say "mashhurtarin-e hame-ye daneshgahha" too.


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## colognial

Per Gessle said:


> I believe that the ezaafe is not required between "mashhurtarin-e hame" and "daneshgahha". But it is correct to say "mashhurtarin-e hame-ye daneshgahha" too.


 You're right, both are correct. However, you'll find that most people speaking normally in ordinary situations will go for "hame ye".


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## molana

Reviewing the examples in my previous comments, we see that they are adages. Following this, one may reach the conclusion that:
*The structure comparative/superlative adjective+ezaafe+(همۀ+)plural noun is the golden rule of the adage.*​Using this structure, makes the speaker to look like an _erudite_. It gives his statement a sort of _charisma_, a _prophetic _tone.

This manner of speaking has paled, but is not dead yet. We can still hear the mullahs saying:
.*بهترینِ کارها* نماز اول وقت است
.*برترینِ شب ها* لیالیِ قدر(لیلة القدر، شب قدر)است
.*والاترینِ اعمال* صلۀ رحم است



colognial said:


> My question is: how does a speaker of Persian say, for instance, 'the most famous universities in Iran are hard to get admission to'? How would you say it in your native tongue? Doesn't a translation of this English sentence automatically call for the _ezaafe_ to be removed? به سختی می شود به مشهورترین دانشگاه های ایران راه یافت


.چون صفت تفضیلی - با پسوند "ترین"- مقدم بر اسمی که به صیغۀ جمع است بیاید و صفت به اسم اضافه شود، یعنی *پس از صفت، کسرۀ اضافه وجود داشته باشد*، از این ترکیب *مفهوم مفرد *اراده می شود
As is the case for the above examples which I have brought for the superlative adjective. So they mean a singular noun, even if they are plural, because an ezaafe is used .

.چون صفت تفضیلی - با پسوند "ترین"- مقدم بر اسمی که به صیغۀ جمع است بیاید و *کسرۀ اضافه در میان نباشد* مجموع ترکیب،* مفهوم جمع* می رساند
As is the case for your question, dear colognial.
Ex:*بهترینِ مردان* (with an ezaafe)The best man(only one)
Ex:*بهترین مردان* (without any ezaafe)The best men(more than one)
(هرگه که در اندامی نقصان پدید آید آن نقصان باز دهد به* بیشترین اندامها *(کشف المحجوب سجستانیwithout any ezaafe


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## molana

Here, I just try to encapsulate this thread:

.مشهورترینِ همۀ دانشگاه های ایران دانشگاه تهران است with an _ezaafe_The most famous of all universities in/of Iran is the university of Tehran.
.مشهورترِ همۀ دانشگاه های ایران دانشگاه تهران است with an _ezaafe_The more famous of all universities in/of Iran is the university of Tehran.
.مشهورترینِ دانشگاه های ایران دانشگاه تهران است with an _ezaafe_The most famous of universities in/of Iran is the university of Tehran.
.مشهورترِ دانشگاه های ایران دانشگاه تهران است with an _ezaafe_The more famous of universities in/of Iran is the university of Tehran.
.مشهورترین دانشگاه ایران دانشگاه تهران است without any _ezaafe_The most famous university in/of Iran is the university of Tehran.
.مشهورترین دانشگاه های ایران دانشگاه تهران و دانشگاه شریف هستند_ without any ezaafe_The most famous universities in/of Iran are the university of Tehran and the university of Sharif.
.مشهورترینِ مردم ایرانیان اند with an _ezaafe_The most famous of/among people are the Iranians.
.مشهورترین مردم ایرانیان اند without any _ezaafe_The most famous people are the Iranians.


From this thread, I learned a lot, both in English and in Farsi.
Thank you PersoLatin
Thank you colognial

I know that ".مشهورترینِ/مشهورترین مردم ایرانیان اند" is a nonsense. I only intended to apply the superlative adjective مشهورترینِ/مشهورترین to a collective noun such as ملت، مردم، خلق, etc.


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## PersoLatin

molana said:


> From this thread, I learned a lot, both in English and in Farsi.
> Thank you PersoLatin
> Thank you colognial


You and me both , maybe we knew most of those, but never had to think about them in that way before.


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## molana

PersoLatin said:


> maybe we knew most of those, but never had to think about them, in that way before


Yes, that's it.


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