# Hindi (Urdu): kii or



## marrish

Hi,

This word, ओर, struck me once when I begon reading Nagari, because I hadn't known it from Urdu, and it appears to be one of the basic words used in Hindi. Normally one wouldn't expect such difference in primary words to exist, especially when is kindly informed from every angle that Hindi and Urdu share the same basic vocabulary.

I heard it here and there from Hindi speakers I had the chance to speak to. In Urdu, I never knew this word existed whatsoever.

Is it a word which belongs typically to Hindi and is not used in Urdu, or is it only the matter of preference? In which function can this word be used? Can you provide any illustratory sentences?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Hi,
> 
> This word, ओर, struck me once when I begon reading Nagari, because I hadn't known it from Urdu, and it appears to be one of the basic words used in Hindi. Normally one wouldn't expect such difference in primary words to exist, especially when is kindly informed from every angle that Hindi and Urdu share the same basic vocabulary.
> 
> I heard it here and there from Hindi speakers I had the chance to speak to. In Urdu, I never knew this word existed whatsoever.
> 
> Is it a word which belongs typically to Hindi and is not used in Urdu, or is it only the matter of preference? In which function can this word be used? Can you provide any illustratory sentences?



I too had similar experience and only became aware of "or" (taraf) when I began learning Devanagri. I have never seen it in Urdu literature nor have I heard any Urdu speaker employ it. However, if you look it up in the "Classical" dictionaries, the implication is that it was used in Urdu not too long ago but it seems that it has now ceased to exist.


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## marrish

Our shared experience point out towards the practical inexistence of this word in Urdu. If it is found in 'The dictionaries' it means it was used in Urdu or that Hindi speech is recorded in them, like it happens sometimes.


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## greatbear

An example sentence: "Us or mat jaanaa: vahaaN khatraa hai".

The word could mean either "towards" or "that side". Only "or" can be used for riverbank, seashore, etc. "Nadii ke do or hote haiN".


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> An example sentence: "Us or mat jaanaa: vahaaN khatraa hai".
> 
> The word could mean either "towards" or "that side". Only "or" can be used for riverbank, seashore, etc. "Nadii ke do or hote haiN".



Thank you for this additional information. When I was talking about this word being listed in Urdu dictionaries, I thought of adding this information which you have provided but I thought it might not be relevant. The dictionaries mention that in the former meaning the word is feminine (merii or) and masculine in the latter. Here are a couple of examples from that dictionary for bank/edge/kinaarah

baat kyaa hai saahii* kii aaNt hai jis kaa *or-chhor* hii nahiiN.

barsaat meN ghaaghraa kaa or-*chhor hii* nahiiN miltaa.

There is also "or nibhaanaa" meaning "Had tak pahuNchaanaa".

I mentioned in my previous post that I had not come across this word "or" in Urdu literature. I believe I am mistaken. I have but I can't remember where. If I see something, I shall try to remember and post it here.

* porcupine


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## marrish

Is it kii or ke or? I don't remember.


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## bakshink

From a song.. Dil kho gaya, ho gaya kisi ka from the movie Bole So Nihal 
ho ho..aanchal tera rabba, falak ban gaya hai 
your covering/kindness, your love, O god( this is like saying..by the grace of God) has become the sky for me


ab iska nahi, koi or, koi chhor 
now there is no start and end of it (love) or it's limitless, it has no end on any side.

Navneet


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## marrish

marrish said:


> Is it kii or ke or? I don't remember.


I got the answer from Qureshpor SaaHib one minute before having posed the question! It has become redundant now.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank you for this additional information. When I was talking about this word being listed in Urdu dictionaries, I thought of adding this information which you have provided but I thought it might not be relevant. The dictionaries mention that in the former meaning the word is feminine (merii or) and masculine in the latter.



Yes, indeed: "or" in the sense of "bank" is masculine, otherwise it's feminine.

Another example: "CharoN *or* andheraa chhayaa thaa, ki tab hii akaa-ak ek khaTkaa huaa aur door se koii mashaal kii tarah TimTimatii roshnii kii guzaarish-si pratiit huii".
("There was darkness on all sides, when suddenly there was a noise and from far away, an apology of a light seemed to appear, flickering like a torch." - not literal translation)


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> Yes, indeed: "or" in the sense of "bank" is masculine, otherwise it's feminine.
> 
> Another example: "CharoN *or* andheraa chhayaa thaa, ki tab hii *akaa-ak* ek khaTkaa huaa aur door se koii mashaal kii tarah TimTimatii roshnii kii guzaarish-si pratiit huii".
> ("There was darkness on all sides, when suddenly there was a noise and from far away, an apology of a light seemed to appear, flickering like a torch." - not literal translation)



Thanks for the interesting example. *Is the spelling of this word intended? Could you type it in Nagari?*


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## Alfaaz

This probably won't count as Urdu Literature, but reminded of a song from Yeh Amn by Habib Jalib: 

_suraj ki kirnoN ka rastah rokne walo sun lo, sau dewaareN chunlo
jab tak is nagrii meiN, chaaroN or andhere haiN, apni jang rahe gii
yaa peer dastgiir madad kar...

Edit: Correction: the song is from Yeh Amn not Zarqa._


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> This probably won't count as Urdu Literature, but reminded of a song from Zarqa by Habib Jalib:
> 
> _suraj ki kirnoN ka rastah rokne walo sun lo, sau dewaareN chunlo
> jab tak is nagrii meiN, chaaroN or andhere haiN, apni jang rahe gii
> yaa peer dastgiir madad kar..._



Well, I don't see why not. Habib Jalib was a very well known revolutionary Urdu poet.


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## Alfaaz

Qureshpor said:
			
		

> Well, I don't see why not. Habib Jalib was a very well known revolutionary Urdu poet.


Yes he was/his poetry still is. I said so because some people don't consider film songs to be "real poetry" (as they might sometimes go against convention, for other reasons, or simply because they were in a "movie").


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## Faylasoof

I can assure you all the word is still used by some in daily speech. Our speech! 

We do use it like this, for example:

اور نہ چھوڑ _or nah chhoR_ = endless / never ending.

اور نہ چھوڑ راہ \ راستہ لینا \ اختیار كرنا 
or nah chhoR raah / raastah lenaa / ixtiyaar karnaa 
To take a never ending / endless path 
To go on and on

_aap ne to is baiHith (baHith) meN ek pechiidah aur or nah chhoR raah ixtiyaar kar lii hai _
_You've taken a convoluted and endless path / route in this debate / discussion.
_
_or nah chhoR bateN banaanaa_ =  To waffle endlessly = to drivel.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> I can assure you all the word is still used by some in daily speech. Our speech!
> 
> We do use it like this, for example:
> 
> اور نہ چھوڑ _or nah chhoR_ = endless / never ending.
> 
> اور نہ چھوڑ راہ \ راستہ لینا \ اختیار كرنا
> or nah chhoR raah / raastah lenaa / ixtiyaar karnaa
> To take a never ending / endless path
> To go on and on
> 
> _aap ne to is baiHith (baHith) meN ek pechiidah aur or nah chhoR raah ixtiyaar kar lii hai _
> _You've taken a convoluted and endless path / route in this debate / discussion.
> _
> _or nah chhoR bateN banaanaa_ =  To waffle endlessly = to drivel.


Faylasoof SaaHib, I agree this expression is in use where "or" is masculine. I can't remember any other instance when it was used in Urdu, but I'd like to learn about more! The question is, have you encountered "kii or" in Urdu speech or writing?


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> *Is the spelling of this word intended? Could you type it in Nagari?*



Sorry for the confusion: I typed in a colloquial variant of "yakaayak", which maybe had you confused. The standard word is यकायक.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> Sorry for the confusion: I typed in a colloquial variant of "yakaayak", which maybe had you confused. The standard word is यकायक.


Thank your for clarification, I just thought you meant this one. I agree this word is yakaa-yak in Urdu, but also in Hindi.


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## aevynn

aevynn said:


> a she3r by Sheen Kaaf Nizam:
> 
> man *raftaar se* bhaagtaa jaataa hai kis or​palak jhapakte shaam hai palak jhapakte bhor​





Qureshpor said:


> 1) شین کاف نظام
> 
> "or" is hardly Urdu, even if it is to be found in the older language more frequently. In all my years, I have never read Urdu poetry or prose with the word "or" nor have I personally used this word or heard it from another Urdu speaker.


For what it's worth: First,  let me mention that Sheen Kaaf Nizam is the recipient of a Sahitya Akademi award in Urdu. Next, let me present the following list to augment @Alfaaz's nice example in #11 and @Faylasoof's assurance in #14 above:

Sahir Ludhianvi: (song from a film) nadiyaa kaa paanii dariyaa se mil_ke saagar kii *or* chale

Mir Taqi Mir: gard-e-rah us_kii yaa rab kis *or* se uThe_gii // sau sau Gazaal har-suu aaNkheN lagaa rahaa hai

Muzaffar Hanafi: (nazm title) niiche kii *or*

Mohammad Rafi: chaaroN *or* andheraa niklaa // jaane kahaaN saweraa niklaa

Ameeq Hanafi: dil meN dukh aaNkhoN meN namii aasmaaN par ghaTaa'eN // andar baahar is *or* us *or* har *or* baadal

Fazl Tabish: us_ke chaaroN *or* phireN kyaa us_ke andar utareN kyaa // apne hii andar utarne kaa kyaa kuchh kam pachhtaawaa hai

Saleem Shahzad: (ghazal with radiif chaaroN *or*) nahiiN hai ko'ii duusraa manzar chaaroN *or* // phailaa hai taariik samundar chaaroN *or *

Ahmad Mushtaq: diloN kii *or* dhuuaaN saa dikhaa'ii detaa hai // ye(h) shahr to mujhe jaltaa dikhaa'ii detaa hai

Buland Shahri: jalwaa/h chaaroN *or* thaa // biich meN ek mor thaa

Saeed Ahmad Akhtar: jab chaaroN *or* andheraa thaa sach kam thaa jhuuT ghaneraa thaa // dariyaa se baRe ik shaxS kaa is dariyaa ke kinaare Deraa thaa

Safdar Meer: chaaroN *or* ab phuul hii phuul haiN kyaa ginte ho daaGoN ko // ho taufiiq to dil se lagaa'o in nau-rustaa/h baaGoN ko

Saleem Ansari: mere chaaroN *or* the tarah tarah ke log // phir bhii mujh_ko lag gayaa tanhaa'ii kaa rog

...


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