# Posh accent in second language?



## Jessuki

Hm.. I'm not sure where to place this thread, but I think it can affect every language learner, so.. I place it here   

My question is:

How do you know if you are talking 'posh' or something else in a second language? lol, I mean, are you able to notice a 'posh' english accent if you are spanish native speaker? And viceversa..
I say posh, but it can be an 'acento dejado' (?), etc

Yeah, I know, stupid question maybe, but hey, I'm curious about it, lol   


Saludos!!!


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## belén

Well, it depends on how good your language skills on that particular language are.
I am able to recognize "posh" language in English, but can't do it in Portuguese or German because my level of those languages is pretty low.
So, that's my 2pence!

Be


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## Artrella

I don't know, but some of my American friends say I have a British posh accent when I speak slowly but when I speak quickly I have an Argentinian British non posh accent!


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## kens

It's _very_ important to learn a language from a teacher who has a good accent!  I knew a German girl who spoke English with such an upper class accent she sounded like royalty.  It drove me crazy!


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## Tormenta

kens said:
			
		

> It's _very_ important to learn a language from a teacher who has a good accent!  I knew a German girl who spoke English with such an upper class accent she sounded *like royalty*.  It drove me crazy!




Have you ever heard Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York?  
Specially when she says "do you know what I mean?"


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## kens

You're right -- "she sounded like royalty" isn't such a great compliment these days!


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## Focalist

kens said:
			
		

> I knew a German girl who spoke English with such an upper class accent she sounded like royalty.  It drove me crazy!


Mind you, there's a theory that the "royal accent" in English is a reflection of the north German (Hanoverian/Saxon) origins of the current British royal family. George I spoke no English, George II spoke it only haltingly, Victoria spoke only German in her infancy, and the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha monarchy down to Edward VII, if not later, remained fluent in German.

Look at the characteristics of "ultra-posh" English as it existed until very recent times: 
-- "man" and "men" pronounced identically
-- words written with an initial vowel pronounced with an initial glottal stop
-- a generally "clipped", very precise manner of enunciation

All characteristics of German (especially in its "Prussian" variety)!

F


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## kens

I've decided that there is no one person named Focalist.  There must be a team of researchers and linguistics experts, all working under the same name! 

I knew about George I of course, but I never realized that Queen Victoria's mother tongue was German.  It's ironic that, from my experience at least, most Germans today seem to have learned English with a sort of neutral American accent.


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## Focalist

kens said:
			
		

> I've decided that there is no one person named Focalist.  There must be a team of researchers and linguistics experts, all working under the same name!


That's *whodunit*'s theory too...

We all thank you both most kindly! 

F


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## Tormenta

kens said:
			
		

> *I've decided that there is no one person named Focalist*.  There must be a team of researchers and linguistics experts, all working under the same name!




I am sure there is only one Focalist, a very good one, of course!   

T.


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## kens

If that's the case Tormenta, then this must be "the royal We"!!!



			
				Focalist said:
			
		

> We all thank you both most kindly!


How posh can you get?


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## Whodunit

To get back to the point of Jessuki's question, I want to tell you something I've realized at school:
- Bristish English (_also called_ English English or the King's/Queen's English) is supposed to be the purest kind of English.
- American English is recognizable by that that the Yanks (sorry!) roll the r's very strongly.
- Indian English is just used as a traffic language, i.e. it's only to communicate and not very pure.


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## jacinta

whodunit said:
			
		

> To get back to the point of Jessuki's question, I want to tell you something I've realized at school:
> - Bristish English (_also called_ English English or the King's/Queen's English) is supposed to be the purest kind of English.
> - American English is recognizable by that that the Yanks (sorry!) roll the r's very strongly.
> - *Indian English * is just used as a traffic language, i.e. it's only to communicate and not very pure.



Could you please explain what *Indian* English is?


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## funnydeal

What about the English spoken in Australia?


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## kens

jacinta said:
			
		

> Could you please explain what *Indian* English is?


I think Whodunit means the English spoken in India.  Even though it and Hindi are the only two languages used widely across all of India, English is a second (or third, or fourth, or fifth...) language for most Indians.  

The English spoken in India is quite interesting -- they often use words that have long since died out in the rest of the English-speaking world!


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## Focalist

whodunit said:
			
		

> To get back to the point of Jessuki's question, I want to tell you something I've realized at school:
> - Bristish English (_also called_ English English or the King's/Queen's English) is supposed to be the purest kind of English.
> - American English is recognizable by that that the Yanks (sorry!) roll the r's very strongly.
> - Indian English is just used as a traffic language, i.e. it's only to communicate and not very pure.


Hmm. I think we should leave aside the notion of "pureness" when discussing linguistic differences.

"British English" means the whole bundle of regional and class dialects of English spoken in Britain (including the somewhat archaic version of "RP English" spoken by the Queen). [See these BBC for Schools pages.] These dialects can sometimes be so different from each other in terms of pronunciation and grammar as to make it hard at times for, say, a Bristolian to follow what, say, a Glaswegian is saying. The term "British English" is useful, nevertheless, for indicating  a number of linguistic features which all English-speakers in Britain understand, even if they do not always use them themselves, and which are absent from other, non-British, Englishes.

If you really want to use "pure" in the prescriptivist "grammatically correct" sense, then "Indian English" is often much "purer" than British English -- as is often the case with second languages acquired through formal education. Gaelic-speakers in Scotland are frequently noted for their "pure" English, since they learned it at school rather than "at their mother's knee". This is sometimes called "talking like a book". As has already been pointed out, Indian English is also characterized by an often very formal and (to a British ear) antiquated structure and choice of vocabulary. Once again, this is talking like a book -- a Victorian one in this case!

In respect of the original question in this thread about "posh accents in second languages", I would say the fact that formal foreign-language instruction naturally focuses on the "standard" form of the target language (and the standard form has high prestige in most language communities, i.e. is "posh") will certainly influence the accent acquired. However, it is posh vocabulary and grammar that is much more marked in the second-language speaker. Scottish Highlanders and Indians both have very distinctive non-standard _accents_ but their English tends to be very "correct".

BTW, I wouldn't say that the American R is "rolled" (= uttered with a trill). The Spanish RR (/initial R) is rolled.  The "General American" R (in, say, "farm") is a retroflex central semivowel (a sort of "uh" with the tongue curled back). [Listen here.] 

F


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## Whodunit

funnydeal said:
			
		

> What about the English spoken in Australia?



I don't know any more. I've listened to it half a year at school on the teacher's tape. But I can't express how is it spoken. I could something tell that's identifiable in Aussie English. They do use some "weird" words that other English(wo)men would recognize:
- G'day (=Good day) instead of "Hello"
- Oz (= Australia)
- station (= sheep farm)
But they'd rather refrain from words (insults of themselves) such as:
- down under
- Aussie _etc._



			
				jacinta said:
			
		

> Could you please explain what Indian English is?



Indian languages are actually
Hindi (in Central India),
Bengali (in West Bengal),
Marathi (in Central India),
Iranian (in Pakistan, i.e. East Levantine),
Dravidic (Southern India, i.e. in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, and Kerala),
Sino-Tibetan (in Northern India, Northern Nepal, and Bhutan),
Austro-Asiatic (in Bihar and little parts of Eastern India),
Altaic --> Turk language (in the territory Ladakh occupied by China, but claimed by India between India and China), and
Andamanese (on the Andaman Islands),
but since there're over 40 (?) (other) languages and 800 dialects (!), they had to decide to use only one "traffic language". And since Hindi is too hard to learn for people who didn't speak it yet, they've chosen English.
And as I've never been there yet, I might concede that Focalist is right, as usual.



			
				Focalist said:
			
		

> Hmm. I think we should leave aside the notion of "pureness" when discussing linguistic differences.
> 
> "British English" means the whole bundle of regional and class dialects of English spoken in Britain (including the somewhat archaic version of "RP English" spoken by the Queen). [See these BBC for Schools pages.] These dialects can sometimes be so different from each other in terms of pronunciation and grammar as to make it hard at times for, say, a Bristolian to follow what, say, a Glaswegian is saying. The term "British English" is useful, nevertheless, for indicating a number of linguistic features which all English-speakers in Britain understand, even if they do not always use them themselves, and which are absent from other, non-British, Englishes.
> 
> If you really want to use "pure" in the prescriptivist "grammatically correct" sense, then "Indian English" is often much "purer" than British English -- as is often the case with second languages acquired through formal education. Gaelic-speakers in Scotland are frequently noted for their "pure" English, since they learned it at school rather than "at their mother's knee". This is sometimes called "talking like a book". As has already been pointed out, Indian English is also characterized by an often very formal and (to a British ear) antiquated structure and choice of vocabulary. Once again, this is talking like a book -- a Victorian one in this case!
> 
> In respect of the original question in this thread about "posh accents in second languages", I would say the fact that formal foreign-language instruction naturally focuses on the "standard" form of the target language (and the standard form has high prestige in most language communities, i.e. is "posh") will certainly influence the accent acquired. However, it is posh vocabulary and grammar that is much more marked in the second-language speaker. Scottish Highlanders and Indians both have very distinctive non-standard accents but their English tends to be very "correct".
> 
> BTW, I wouldn't say that the American R is "rolled" (= uttered with a trill). The Spanish RR (/initial R) is rolled. The "General American" R (in, say, "farm") is a retroflex central semivowel (a sort of "uh" with the tongue curled back). [Listen here.]



Of course, you're right as we knew. But I have to justify my last reply:
I didn't mean that American English speakers roll the r (or better: they don't trill it), but I meant they "retch it out" (I can't find a better word) as if the tongue sticks in the throat tilted back and almost grazing the uvula. And not sounding like Arabic-r (grazing teeth with tip of the tongue), that's sure.

I don't think that German English would sound better than others' one, because we always used "pharyngeal R", shortly before "snarling" - you can also find it in the French language although it’s a Roman language and German whose r sounds the same is a Germanic or Teutonic language like Britain.

Hope, I could help …


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## funnydeal

Thanks for your comments, whodunit


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## kens

whodunit said:
			
		

> but since there're over 40 (?) (other) languages and 800 dialects (!), they had to decide to use only one "traffic language". And since Hindi is too hard to learn for people who didn't speak it yet, they've chosen English.


Actually, from my experience, Hindi and English are tied as the _linguae francae_ of India.  Even in the south of India, where I lived, Hindi was commonly used even though it's quite different from the languages native to those areas.  In fact, Indians often spice up their English with Hindi words (even if their mother tongue is a third, completely different, language).


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## Mr X

whodunit said:
			
		

> I don't know any more. I've listened to it half a year at school on the teacher's tape. But I can't express how is it spoken. I could something tell that's identifiable in Aussie English. They do use some "weird" words that other English(wo)men would recognize:
> - G'day (=Good day) instead of "Hello"
> - Oz (= Australia)
> - station (= sheep farm)
> But they'd rather refrain from words (insults of themselves) such as:
> - down under
> - Aussie _etc._



I know this isn't related to the original topic of this thread, but...

In my experience, 'oz' is only used by Australians when talking to someone who's not Australian (I don't know why).  
Also, I've never noticed anyone refraining from using, or being insulted by the terms 'down under' and 'Aussie.'

Just for future reference  
Mr X.


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## Meysha

I'm in France at the moment learning French and I'm originally from Australia. My french teacher at uni was Parisienne and I like that accent and so do a lot of french people I think. But now I'm living down the south of france in Toulouse... and here the accent is very different (I liken it to the southern american twang!) and I really really do not want to get a Toulouse accent, although I can already hear it happening! (NOO!) But because I'm learning all these new words that I've never heard with a Parisien accent it's really hard for me to invent the accent myself.

I'm always thinking about my french accent when I speak french, coz I don't want to sound too much like a snob from paris, but then again I don't wanna be the country bumpkin from Toulouse. Mind you, I have a friend who's parisienne also, and she says that she loves the Toulouse accent.
Oh it's so frustrating!


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## fetchezlavache

i wonder if anybody reading this has heard the songs by this band 'the streets'. it's mostly spoken... could anybody tell me which accent it is this guy has ? thanks.


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## Sev

Meysha said:
			
		

> I really really do not want to get a Toulouse accent, although I can already hear it happening! (NOO!) ..
> ...the country bumpkin


Hey, I'm living in Toulouse too (but i'm not toulousaine, only since september 2004), and i don't think that the accent is so terrible as you says. And most of the people in France find all kind of accents coming from the south (Toulouse including) either funny or nice, as you parisienne friend ! It reminds them sunshine !!!

Et une australienne avec l'accent de Toulouse, ça doit être sympa  !!


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## Meysha

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> i wonder if anybody reading this has heard the songs by this band 'the streets'. it's mostly spoken... could anybody tell me which accent it is this guy has ? thanks.



I know it's an English Accent (from England) but I don't know anymore than that.
I did a quick search on the MTV website and in The Streets' biography it says that the guy came from Birmingham orginally and then moved to London.


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## Focalist

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> i wonder if anybody reading this has heard the songs by this band 'the streets'. it's mostly spoken... could anybody tell me which accent it is this guy has ? thanks.


"The Streets" is actually a one-man band, Mike Skinner. 
You can hear two interviews with him here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/jowhiley/interviews/mike_skinner_nov04.shtml

According to his biography he grew up in Birmingham and then lived for a short while in Australia, but from the evidence of the bit of the interviews I'be listened to, the man now speaks pure "Estuary (Esscharee) English" ([I fink so anyway - know wha' I mean?)

F


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## fetchezlavache

right, thank you both ! i'd even be more thankful if i knew what you mean focalist, with the estuary english and all that .... please ?


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## Focalist

Eveything (and more) that you ever wanted to know about Estuary English ((la variation de l'anglais pratiquée à l'estuaire de la Tamise, i.e. Londres et ses environs):
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/index.html

F


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## fetchezlavache

even better...


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## munchkin5000

Well, my experiences in spanish and english show that the form in europe (as opposed to the americas) is considered the posh one.  When i arrived in mexico (speaking with a stunning madrid accent i have to say) i was ridiculed for my ceceo, and when teaching english, i had to put on an american drawl (sorry guys!!) because the students found an RP accent too difficult to understand.

When i got back, my friends accused me of no longer being able to speak my own langauge!  And a recent visit to a friend in madrid revealed how unprestigious my hard-earned mexican accent was!  I got called a campesina!!!!!


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## Marc1

Jessuki said:
			
		

> How do you know if you are talking 'posh' or something else in a second language?



One sure way is to use formal words and drop the slang and coloquial. Unfortunatley many people in their eagerness to "blend in" have a real fixation to learn all the worst expressions and do manage to blend in, but several steps lower in the social gutter. Use the written language and you are on dry land.


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## pinkpanter

kens said:
			
		

> I've decided that there is no one person named Focalist.  There must be a team of researchers and linguistics experts, all working under the same name!



That would make sense...


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## fatboy06

I would say that Mike Skinner has a moderately working class London accent, not as far as Cockney though.  He certainly doesn't have a Brummie [from Birmingham] accent.  Oh dear, he's even got outside English speaking countries !


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## mirandolina

When I was at Uni a _long _time ago I spent a year in Provence as English language assistant in a school in the Var. Of course I picked up the local accent, which I subsequently lost, and some regional vocabulary!
Last year I finally managed to go back to Provence and tune in to the accent again, it was like coming home!  




			
				Meysha said:
			
		

> I'm in France at the moment learning French and I'm originally from Australia. My french teacher at uni was Parisienne and I like that accent and so do a lot of french people I think. But now I'm living down the south of france in Toulouse... and here the accent is very different (I liken it to the southern american twang!) and I really really do not want to get a Toulouse accent, although I can already hear it happening! (NOO!) But because I'm learning all these new words that I've never heard with a Parisien accent it's really hard for me to invent the accent myself.


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## JJchang

Meysha said:
			
		

> I'm in France at the moment learning French and I'm originally from Australia. My french teacher at uni was Parisienne and I like that accent and so do a lot of french people I think. But now I'm living down the south of france in Toulouse... and here the accent is very different (I liken it to the southern american twang!) and I really really do not want to get a Toulouse accent, although I can already hear it happening! (NOO!) But because I'm learning all these new words that I've never heard with a Parisien accent it's really hard for me to invent the accent myself.



First I thought I couldn't distinguish different accents in French because all of my teachers are Parisian, but after I watched Oscar and heard Beyonce then I realised "yep, I can tell what is a not-so-posh accent"... 
Don't you want to slap her when she pronounced the word "nuit"?


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## I.C.

Focalist said:


> Mind you, there's a theory that the "royal accent" in English is a reflection of the north German (Hanoverian/Saxon) origins of the current British royal family. George I spoke no English, George II spoke it only haltingly, Victoria spoke only German in her infancy, and the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha monarchy down to Edward VII, if not later, remained fluent in German.
> 
> Look at the characteristics of "ultra-posh" English as it existed until very recent times:
> -- "man" and "men" pronounced identically
> -- words written with an initial vowel pronounced with an initial glottal stop
> -- a generally "clipped", very precise manner of enunciation
> 
> All characteristics of German (especially in its "Prussian" variety)!


 I realise this thread is rather old, but in case someone might potentially be interested, I’ll mention that even though I will not claim any causal relationship, I thought I did indeed notice a similarity to the way my Prussian-educated grandmother used to speak. 
She had a quite peculiar, clipped way of speaking and also a general air about her which I’m reminded of whenever I stumble upon footage of Elizabeth II. (Also somewhat similar looks, so that might possibly distort my perception a little.)

  In retrospect it appears to me my grandmother might have had been educated to dislike opening her mouth all too much, basically any more than necessary, and I cannot help but wonder whether she was taught this were vulgar.


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## Etcetera

Jessuki said:


> I mean, are you able to notice a 'posh' english accent if you are spanish native speaker? And viceversa..


Saludos Jessuki.
Yes, I am able to recognise a "posh" accent in English, and some other accents (Cockney, the accent of Lancashire). 
But I'm afraid I wouldn't recognise a "posh" Finnish accent. My knowledge of Finnish, especially spoken Finnish, isn't good enough. 
I guess it all depends on how good you know the given language.


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## CiegoEnamorado

I can easily recognize a 'posh' accent in Spanish, mostly because everyone here who speaks it as a second language doesn't put forth much effort in regards to pronunciation. And that's sad to me, seeing that it's not that difficult to master.

I've only recently come to recognize them in Japanese. I was listening to a podcast called 'NHK POPJAM' recently, which featured a pair of native-English-speaking artists. Their accent sounded so nasalized, and has caused me to listen to myself very closely when I speak Japanese now.  I still can't completely recognize some 'posh' accents completely in Japanese, but it's getting easier.


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## mirx

CiegoEnamorado said:


> I can easily recognize a 'posh' accent in Spanish, mostly because everyone here who speaks it as a second language doesn't put forth much effort in regards to pronunciation. And that's sad to me, seeing that it's not that difficult to master.
> 
> I've only recently come to recognize them in Japanese. I was listening to a podcast called 'NHK POPJAM' recently, which featured a pair of native-English-speaking artists. Their accent sounded so nasalized, and has caused me to listen to myself very closely when I speak Japanese now.  I still can't completely recognize some 'posh' accents completely in Japanese, but it's getting easier.


 

Hi Ciego Enamorado

Can you please tell me what a "posh" accent sounds like in Spanis? I have spoken spanish all my life, and I would not recognize a "posh" accent.

The only way, I can think of now of recognizing whether a person is trying to be posh is by using big words. In México there´s a way of speaking among young people who try to be pretensuos and snobbish, but it doensn't sound posh at all.

Would you enlighten me please.


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## Lugubert

kens said:


> Actually, from my experience, Hindi and English are tied as the _linguae francae_ of India. Even in the south of India, where I lived, Hindi was commonly used even though it's quite different from the languages native to those areas. In fact, Indians often spice up their English with Hindi words (even if their mother tongue is a third, completely different, language).


Interesting to see this view in writing! Until recently, my impression was that Hindi was resented in the South, and that using Hindi almost would be a health hazard. But during my (too) few weeks in the South, now and then my admittedly extremely poor Hindi helped out when my excellent English was misunderstood.

I'm too busy this month to start a thread on Indian English. It's an interesting field of study, though.

One thing about posh is that you have to be consistent. My ex-wife is recognized as an unusually competent language teacher (her native Swedish, English, German). Once, when we were visiting friends in Switzerland, she commented in a very scholarly and refined accent on an anecdote: "Da haben Sie wirklich Schwein gehabt". (You really were lucky.) The hosts (very polite people, so they apologized afterwards) burst out laughing at the effect of mixing the very colloquial "Schwein" for 'luck' with the perfect, cultivated High German in a poshish accent that she had been speaking. Had she used "Glück", there would have been no reaction (except perhaps compliments on her faultless German).

I, however, had worked for a summer in Germany, and had picked up a rather colloquial, bordering on careless, accent. I would have gotten away with "Schwein" without a single raised eyebrow (except perhaps if followed by compliments on my faultless German).


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