# un coup d'épée dans l'eau



## esperanza2

*Moderator note: *multiple threads merged to create this one.  Plusieurs discussions ont été fusionnées pour créer ce fil. 

Y-a-t-il quelqu'un qui pourrait m'expliquer le sens de cette expression?


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## zaby

"Un coup dans l'eau" est synonyme de l'expression "un coup pour rien". Cela signifie que l'action faite n'a pas donné de résultat.


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## Agnès E.

En réalité, l'expression complète est : *un coup d'épée dans l'eau* (quelque chose de parfaitement inopérant, qui ne sert à rien et ne produit aucun résultat visible).


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## esperanza2

Merci, les filles. J'ai bien compris le sens!


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Salut le forum,

Je me demande s'il existe une expression idiomatique équivalente en anglais.
En français, je l'utilise pour dire que l'effort a été inutile, qu'on s'est agité en vain pour un résultat nul (pour rien, donc).

- "Alors, qu'est-ce que ça a donné, ton intervention au procès de Robert ?"
- "C'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau... Robert a quand même été condamné à 1000 euros d'amende !"

Je n'ai aucune proposition à donner, ne m'en veuillez pas trop...

Je ne vous dis pas merci d'avance car je sais que ça agaçe certains, mais je le pense quand même !


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## JackD

Hello,
It's a complete waste of time ??


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Oui JackD, c'est le sens, mais ce n'est pas très imagé...


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## Franglais

A wasted effort/waste of time, is the translation.  But, considering English is more adaptable and flexible than French, if you used the word for word translation, people could well understand, even though it's not really used.

I'm racking my brains out, trying to think of an expression ...

hmm...


I really am at a loss, and can find nothing online, nor does anything when reading a big list of expressions come to mind.


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## Franglais

I know!!

Being adaptable n' all (  ), dad came up with one, and you can adapt them but we understand the "template".

it's about as much use as a chocolate ashtray
it's about as much use as a wet fart in a rubber suit (for diving) (!!)

You could work on this principal and be imaginative, as for some reason, native English people understand the main template, even though the words are different.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Thanks Franglais! 
This template is really useful for me, and I'd love to make my own expression. 
It's about as much use as a brain to a supporter of a soccer team.(*)
Does it work?

I'm surprised you can't find a set phrase with the same idea that the French expression. Let's rack your brain again (and stop watching soccer on TV!). 

(*) no offense intended, it's only an example!


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## Franglais

I beg your pardon!?!? 

je deteste le foot.  Je prefererais plutot a m'endormir!  


Ton exemple est marrant, enfin je suis d'accord avec toi!  Hmm, non, il n'ya pas d'exemple pour traduire ton expression, je suis desole.

Quand meme, amuse-toi bien avec la forme pour les autres.. C'est marrant


It's about as much use as a paper towel, is one I have heard.  Par ailleurs, les mots dans la phrase que tu choissiras n'ont rien a faire avec la situation, mais, si tu utilises les mots qui SONT a propos du contexte, c'est plus malin de ta parte 

Perhaps, if you were talking about ladies always being in the kitchen, you could say that a watch is as useful as a paper towel, as there is a big enough clock on the oven 

Heheh... Je plaisante... C'est contre ton avance sur moi toute a l'heure


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## BriGuy

Well those examples given certainly were colorful  

You could also say, for example, that your efforts were "in vain" or "all for nothing" or "all for naught".  

another colloquial expression would be:  "yeah, and a fat lot of good it did me (or him)"


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## Franglais

a fat lot of good that was!  What a great expression...


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Merci BriGuy. 
Je note, je note. 

                              Franglais, the clock on my oven is out _has been_ of order since _for_ ages 

Attention au niveau de langue, "un coup d'épée dans l'eau" est une expression tout ce qu'il y a de classique, que l'on peut dire à n'importe qui, sans être taxé d'aucune familiarité.
Voici l'exemple donné dans le TLFi :


			
				TLFi said:
			
		

> Mais Madame, (...) Monserfeuil n'a aucune espèce de crédit ni de pouvoir avec le nouveau gouvernement. Ce serait un _coup d_*'épée *_dans l'eau.
> _PROUST, _Guermantes __2__,_ 1921, p. 515.



D'autres propositions ?


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## Kelly B

These serve more as warnings than as descriptions of something you already did, but anyway...

ideas found here:

rake water up a hill
It's like pissing in the wind

digging [to China/through the Sahara/the Panama Canal] with a teaspoon

Edit - this doesn't quite fit either, but it is related: It was a wild goose chase


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## geve

Kelly B said:


> These serve more as warnings than as descriptions of something you already did, but anyway...
> 
> ideas found here:
> 
> rake water up a hill
> It's like pissing in the wind
> 
> digging [to China/through the Sahara/the Panama Canal] with a teaspoon


Argh! You beat me to it! J'allais justement poster "pisser dans un violon" et son équivalent anglais...


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## pyan

Spitting in the wind? (the polite version of Kelly B's) A fart in the forest? A chocolate teapot?

Of course using the formula provided by Franglais or a variation: "As good as..."

And I think Franglais (or his dad) hit the nail on the head. The formula leads to much more interesting variations, with local colour.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Merci Kelly ! 
J'aime bien le rateau et en plus on garde l'eau...! Mais je me demande si ce n'est pas plus l'idée d'une tâche sans fin et répétitive (oui, Sisyphe et son rocher!) qu'un "coup" pour rien, dans ce cas. 


geve said:


> Argh! You beat me to it! J'allais justement poster "pisser dans un violon" et son équivalent anglais...


Pas tout à fait équivalent. On a bien le côté inefficacité, mais il manque le côté "bataille" de l'épée... 
(bon et en plus y'a "pisser" qui ne fait pas assez sérieux, hein ! )


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## emma42

Ma suggestion:
*
That was/is as much use as a chocolate teapot* [J'aime ça à cause du "chocolat" - un don des dieux]

Je pense que l'expression "paper towel" est anglais américain.

Edit:  Pardon - pyan a déjà dit "chocolate teapot".


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## geve

Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Merci Pyan et emma42, mais je ne comprends pas bien le _chocolate teapot_...
Vous m'expliquez ? 



geve said:


> Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)


Oui, j'y avais aussi pensé, car il y a le côté absurde en plus qui me plaît bien... Mais -peut-être à tort- j'y vois également une action répétitive, qui n'est pas dans ce "coup" là !


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## Kelly B

I cannot think of the shouting one, but as for les moulins, _tilting at windmills_ is the usual translation from _Quixote,_ I think. I don't hear that very often in the US, though.


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## emma42

Chère Karine85, imagine un théière , construit en chocolat.  Quand on verse l'eau chaud lá-dedans, le pot fondrait!  C'est tout.  Biensûr, c'est une expression très anglais - il s'agit du thé (encore un don des dieux!).


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## emma42

Il y a l'expression, "barking at the moon", gève, mais je ne me souviens pas ce  que ça veut dire.

In Australia, the most popular is hands down "as useless/useful as tits on a bull", followed by "as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike" and "as useful as a screen door on a submarine".

They're quite common in everyday speech


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## watergirl

I may be "grasping at straws," but how about "grasping at straws?"


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## geve

emma42 said:


> Il y a l'expression, "barking at the moon", gève, mais je ne me souviens pas ce que ça veut dire.


Ah  , ça devait être ça !
Je comprends la volonté de rebellion (le chien a une dent contre la lune) et la totale stérilité de l'action (comme si la lune en avait quelque chose à faire, de tous ces aboiements !)
De l'énervement inutile, donc. Pas tout à fait comme "un coup d'épée dans l'eau", mais bon...


watergirl said:


> I may be "grasping at straws," but how about "grasping at straws?"


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## emma42

Non, c'est pas une bonne traduction.  Voire, je pense que "barking at the moon" voudrait dire "être fou".

Edit  "Grasping at straws" veut dire "chercher un solution dans une manière désespérée, de n'avoir qu'un tantinet d'espoir".


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## KaRiNe_Fr

emma42 said:


> Chère Karine85 (*), imagine un théière , construit en chocolat.  Quand on verse l'eau chaud lá-dedans, le pot fondrait!  C'est tout.  Biensûr, c'est une expression très anglais - il s'agit du thé (encore un don des dieux!).


Oh ! Je pensais que le chocolat était le contenu, pas le contenant ! Merci pour l'explication.  Mais je ne vois plus trop le rapport avec le coup d'épée dans l'eau à vrai dire... Ce _chocolate teapot_, je le comprends plus comme une illustration d'une stupidité que d'une chose vaine, non ? 

(*) tu fais allusion à mes 85 ans ou à mes 85 neurones restants ?


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## watergirl

Kelly B said:


> I cannot think of the shouting one, but as for les moulins, _tilting at windmills_ is the usual translation from _Quixote,_ I think. I don't hear that very often in the US, though.



More commonly, I hear "chasing after windmills" to describe a Don Quixote-like effort.


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## emma42

(*) tu fais allusion à mes 85 ans ou à mes 85 neurones restants ? [/quote]

Tous les deux, chérie!


Oui, le chocolate teapot n'est pas parfait comme traduction.  Il me semble que nous sommes perdus aujourd'hui.  J'ai pensé que ce chocolate teaport irai parce qu'il décrit quelque chose d'inutile, comme l'action du coup d'épée...

Emma17


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## KaRiNe_Fr

watergirl said:


> I may be "grasping at straws," but how about "grasping at straws?"


Toujours là quand on parle d'eau, watergirl ? 
J'ai cherché donc _grasping at straws_ (que je lis pour la première fois, merci pour la découverte !  ), et l'on me donne deux possibilités, ici :



> *1. *trying to find reasons to feel hopeful about a bad situation. She thinks he might still be interested because he calls her now and then but I think she's clutching at straws.
> *2. *trying to find some way to succeed when nothing you choose is likely to work. Jerry, grasping at straws, searched the backup tapes from last week, looking for the missing files.


Je suppose que tu parles de la seconde ? Ou peut-être d'une autre ?
Je ne trouve pas que ça convienne trop pour un coup d'épée dans l'eau... ou alors je ne comprends pas bien...

Edit: et merci Fez, j'ajoute tes "as useful as" à la liste de Franglais.


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## watergirl

This isn't exactly it either, but "stab in the dark" or "shot in the dark" at least  have the weapon imagery!  Both mean a "wild guess" or a "random attempt" -- which is often a waste of time, but not always.  Not a good translation really, but "shots in the dark" for sure...


Edit:  And you're right, Karinne, the straw one doesn't work either -- I truly was "grasping at straws" there too.


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## germinal

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Salut le forum,
> 
> Je me demande s'il existe une expression idiomatique équivalente en anglais.
> En français, je l'utilise pour dire que l'effort a été inutile, qu'on s'est agité en vain pour un résultat nul (pour rien, donc).
> 
> - "Alors, qu'est-ce que ça a donné, ton intervention au procès de Robert ?"
> - "C'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau... Robert a quand même été condamné à 1000 euros d'amende !"
> 
> Je n'ai aucune proposition à donner, ne m'en veuillez pas trop...
> 
> Je ne vous dis pas merci d'avance car je sais que ça agaçe certains, mais je le pense quand même !


 
Shakespeare used a very similar expression:   ...to take arms against a sea of troubles...

.


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## emma42

Mais est-ce que cette expression de notre cher Shakespeare convient pour "un coup d'épée..."?  J'ai oublié le contexte et la pièce.  Est-ce que c'est Henry V?  Et quel est le contexte s'il vous plait, germinal?


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## giannid

_It's like b__eating a dead horse_.


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## ChiMike

geve said:


> Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)


 
De Don Quixote: "tilting at windmills"


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## emma42

giannid has got it!  That's the right meaning.  It's unfortunate that the imagery doesn't match (at all!)


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## ChiMike

germinal said:


> Shakespeare used a very similar expression: ...to take arms against a sea of troubles...
> 
> .


 
No, No!  
Hamlet: TO BE OR NOT TO BE:

Or to take arms against a *sea* of *troubles*,
	And by opposing end them?

De s'armer contre un océan de difficultés
Et en s'y opposant, y mettre fin?  

Le sens est, alors, de prendre des actions positives.


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## ammodramus

Depending on the context, you could say "it's like herding cats!"


I think that "beating a dead horse," though useless, has more to do with repeating oneself or preaching to the choir (arguing a point to someone who already agrees).


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## ammodramus

OR, what about
"it's like looking for a needle in a haystack"
or
"it's like trying to nail porridge to the wall"


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## watergirl

I don't feel anything offered up so far really quite does the trick (my lame suggestions, included!) so I'm throwing out yet another: "to shoot blanks" or "to fire blanks."  
 This expression can have a sexual connotation so I really don't think it would work, even though it does have the sense of futility, but I'm throwing it out there (kind of like porridge on the wall? ) in the
hopes that it will spur someone else to come up with something better!  

There MUST be a similarly martial expression in English.  Something with cannons? or cannonfire?


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## ammodramus

isn't there one about using a hammer to kill flies?  Or some other large weapon to kill flies?


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## RocketGirl

Hi everybody... you're all close, but I still don't think anyone's hit the nail on the head.

Fear not though, I have come to the rescue :

C'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau = It was/is a lost cause

It may not be the beautiful image you were hoping to conjure up Karine, but based on your descriptions so far, I assure you it's the right translation...plus it can be used in any situation, be it professional, casual or otherwise.

-"So, whatever happened with Robert's defence case?"
-"It was a lost cause... He was still fined 1000 euros."

-"Did you ask your wife about having the party at your house?"
-"Yeah, but it's a lost cause.  She hates having people over."


You're welcome


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## Nicomon

ammodramus said:


> isn't there one about using a hammer to kill flies? Or some other large weapon to kill flies?


 
My idiom dictionary gives: _a futile act_, and this certainly is one.  Actually, I noticed people are very creative ...

_Trying to kill flies with a : hammer / sledge hammer / shotgun /.357 magnum /elastic band / cannon /sub woofer / machete_

My favorite is the machete ... cutting like a sword.  


I also found: _closing the barn after the horses have fled. _

 How about... _It's like trying to drown a fish_. Would that work?


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## Gil

an exercise in futility


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## giannid

I kinda like the shooting blanks bit.


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## RocketGirl

Nicomon said:


> How about... _It's like trying to drown a fish_. Would that work?


 I've always liked that one.


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## Ael

It's like trying to nail Jello to a tree...

Similar to porridge, but with the benefit of being yummier. 

This is a great question!

«As useful as tits on a bull» is also common in Canada, though pretty familiar in register. 

I'm enjoying this one!


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## germinal

ChiMike said:


> No, No!
> Hamlet: TO BE OR NOT TO BE:
> 
> Or to take arms against a *sea* of *troubles*,
> And by opposing end them?
> 
> De s'armer contre un océan de difficultés
> Et en s'y opposant, y mettre fin?
> 
> Le sens est, alors, de prendre des actions positives.


 
I think the sense of this is that Hamlet knows that by `taking arms` against `the sea of troubles` he will inevitably be overcome (drowned) by them - so putting an end to his predicament negatively.    Shakespeare uses `sea of troubles` to suggest Hamlet's state of mind in which, in his despair, he sees his struggle as futile.

`To be or not to be - that is the question...`
.

.

Another expression often used to express the idea of the futility of a task is:  `It's like trying to hold back the tide.` this is a reference to King Canute who is supposed to have demonstrated the limits of his power to his courtiers by having his throne place below the high-water mark, on the shore, and then formally ordering the rising tide to halt.


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## Nash4u

Shooting in the dark

1. finding a needle in the middle of a desert
2. standing put during a earthquake

keeping your eyes open when sneezing

alerting the police after a robbery

I found this equivalent phrase in Roget's thesaurus.

"Lash the waves"


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## Franglais

to beat a dead horse, I think is perfect!?  Can't believe how much this thread has blown up, it's great and interesting.

To swipe the sword through water, the equivelant in English, seems to have the same affect, don't you think?  I can imagine that, because we don't use it, we could imagine what it means when it is placed in context, once we understand that the situation involved/s a wasted effort.  

The chocolate ashtrays, ashtrays on bikes etc I feel, are more general, and refere to plain stupidity, whereas the french/english word for word translation seem to work together.  To beat a dead horse is deffinately for me, the best one..as it involves a useless action.  

Perhaps writing something like:  ...., yet, knowing his predicament, he continued to try calling her in a vain attempt to re-establish contact and get things resolved.  He knew this was a swipe of the sword through the water, an un-necerssary action in hope of success, but he picked up the reciever, and proceeded to dial in the number that she so intently gave him all those weeks ago until his selfishness drew her away. 

Something like this, you see?  People won't see the normal explination as an attempt to explain the actual word-4-word translation, but rather a second "clause" so to speak, to explain the situation.  I have read things written like this many, many times...with two ways of saying one thing one after the other.


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## Nicomon

Gil said:


> an exercise in futility


 
Hola Gil !  

Je l'avais oublié celui-là. Il m'arrive d'en faire d'ailleurs, comme pour les mouches, plus haut et... comme ici


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## Kaioxygen

geve said:


> Argh! You beat me to it! J'allais justement poster "pisser dans un violon" et son équivalent anglais...


It's like trying to push water up a pipe


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## emma42

Of course, "beating a dead horse" doesn't fit.  Apologies.  I don't even understand my own language!


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## watergirl

I just woke up with yet one more thought (building on Rocketgirl's "lost cause"), what about " a losing battle"?


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## Docbike

Has "pissing in the sea" been posted?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Merci à tous pour toutes ces suggestions ! Même si elles ne font pas toutes l'affaire, je les note toutes dans un petit coin de ma tête. 

Il me semble que pas mal ont déjà leur équivalent en français et elles n'ont malheureusement pas tout à fait le même sens. En vrac, c'est le cas de :
essayer de noyer le poisson, prendre le canon pour tuer la mouche, tirer à blanc, une cause perdue, perdre la bataille... etc

J'aime bien "beating a dead horse" qui semble contenir à la fois le côté combatif, le côté inutile et le côté stupide (peut-être un peu trop d'ailleurs). Mais vous ne semblez pas tous d'accord. Qu'est-ce qui coince donc ? Je vois peut-être un autre aspect en trop... le côté "acharnement", peut-être ?


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## RocketGirl

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> J'aime bien "beating a dead horse" qui semble contenir à la fois le côté combatif, le côté inutile et le côté stupide (peut-être un peu trop d'ailleurs). Mais vous ne semblez pas tous d'accord. Qu'est-ce qui coince donc ? Je vois peut-être un autre aspect en trop... le côté "acharnement", peut-être ?



I've usually only heard "beating a dead horse" in the context of going over and over something but to no avail.  Like if you try over and over to teach your child something but they just don't seem to get it or else they just don't listen... You could say "Trying to teach Jimmy how to ____ is like beating a dead horse".

In my opinion, it doesn't work with the first example you posted about Robert having to pay 1000 euros.

I still vote for "lost cause" or Watergirl's "losing battle". They don't paint funny pictures, but I think they work the best in your context.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Ok RocketGirl, c'est donc bien le côté répétitif et acharnement inutile qui me chagrinait.
La chasse reste donc ouverte. 

Le wiki donne "shot in the dark" (comme watergirl). Qu'en pensez-vous ?  Je n'aime pas trop le côté aléatoire...


("lost cause" et "losing battle" conviennent sûrement, mais les mêmes images existent déjà en français)


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## Nicomon

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Ok wiki donne "shot in the dark" (comme watergirl). Qu'en pensez-vous ?  Je n'aime pas trop le côté aléatoire...


 
A "shot in the dark" est aussi ce qui est suggéré  ici .  Et pourtant, je l'interprète plutôt comme "tirer à l'aveugle"


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## IParleFrench

Maheureusement, "shot in the dark" ne marche pas du tout, car votre phrase évoke un sens de l'inutilité qui n'existe pas avec "shot in the dark." "A shot in the dark" est plus similaire à "hypothèse au hasard."


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Nicomon said:


> A "shot in the dark" est aussi ce qui est suggéré  ici .  Et pourtant, je l'interprète plutôt comme "tirer à l'aveugle"


Oui, ça me faisait penser à quelque chose comme ça aussi... tirer "à l'aveuglette" (comme "à tâtons") ? 
IParleFrench, c'était bien là ma crainte... (la partie "aléatoire") 

 (sympa ton lien Nico !  )


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## Nicomon

Bien compris... On dit tir à l'aveugle, mais tirer à l'aveuglette.  

J'ai trouvé:  _It's like shooting an elephant with a slingshot_


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## watergirl

watergirl said:


> This isn't exactly it either, but "stab in the dark" or "shot in the dark" at least  have the weapon imagery!  Both mean a "wild guess" or a "random attempt" -- which is often a waste of time, but not always.  Not a good translation really, but "shots in the dark" for sure...
> .



Sorry for the confusion.  I wasn't really proposing "shot in the dark" as an equivalent ( see above).  I was just throwing it out as a weapons-related expression that might be of interest to language learners.  Oh well.


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## Nicomon

Sur un site Canadien bilingue, j'ai trouvé....

Côté français 


> Mais les convictions à elles seules *ne sont qu'un coup d'épée dans l'eau*.


Côté anglais


> But convictions without more *are but words writ on water.*


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## RocketGirl

Nicomon said:


> But convictions without more *are but words writ on water.*



I've never heard that one before Nicomon, but even if I had I'd probably think it was antiquated.

Gosh Karine, I think we're all going crazy here.  

I've also come up with "*for naught*".  Not an exciting expression by any stretch, but a perfect fit in my opinion.


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## catay

My two cents worth: Why not "tilting at windmills" , already suggested a few hundred posts back? (Although the ideas are all very creative and I've enjoyed reading them). It carries the idea of a weapon...
Tilting in this sense is _a joust, where knights on horseback tilt against each other with lances._
Link to Daumier's Don Quixote:
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/c...ectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG3244

_Or "roll the stone of Sisyphus"_


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## phosphaenus

I can't find any mention above of "flailing at the air", which seems fairly close in sense, imagery and register. (You imply that you're looking for something with an rather antiquated, literary feel) 

Depending on context, a near-literal rendering might also work.... e.g. "but sword-strokes in water". Why not?

"Tiliting at windmills" is a quite different sense, in my view, and chocolate ashtrays etc etc are absolutely the wrong register. 

I liked "words writ on water" and "an exercise in futility"...  wasn't sure if the latter was a suggested translation or a comment on the thread


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Loin de moi l'idée de vous rendre tous dingues, Rocket ! 
Mais n'oubliez pas que je demandais un équivalent idiomatique, imagé, qui aurait le même sens, ou qui s'y rapprocherait le plus et si possible avec le même registre de langue (familier, utilisable et connu de tous et immédiatement compréhensible).
Toutes les expressions traduisant mon exemple (je n'étais pas très inspirée, j'avoue...) stricto sensus ne me satisferont pas complètement s'il manque une des composantes (image comprise). Je suis difficile ? 
Il en ira de même pour les autres expressions ayant déjà leur équivalent en français (Sisyphe et son rocher, se battre contre des moulins à vent, tuer un âne à coup de papier à cigarette -ou un éléphant ?  -, ...).
N'oubliez pas non plus que vous avez affaire à une francophone pas très douée en anglais, donc si vous voyez une subtilité dans l'expression que vous proposez, n'hésitez pas à me l'expliquer s'il vous plaît, je risquerais de rater l'équivalent magique par incompréhension.   
"flailing at the air" me semble un très bon candidat (avec l'air pour l'eau), si je le comprends bien...
Quoi qu'il en soit, j'ai déjà beaucoup appris grâce à vous tous, merci  !


----------



## Nicomon

RocketGirl said:


> I've never heard that one before Nicomon, but even if I had I'd probably think it was antiquated.


 
Well... I didn't change the translator's sentence, but if you replace _writ_ by _written_... it doesn't sound antiquatad to me. 

_(Mere) words written on water.  _


----------



## catay

phosphaenus said:


> I liked "words writ on water" and "an exercise in futility"... wasn't sure if the latter was a suggested translation or a comment on the thread





> "flailing at the air" me semble un très bon candidat (avec l'air pour l'eau),


 
Is there a wisp of hope here? 
My effort to coin a phrase:
"like trying to seize a wisp of smoke" (with a play on the word "smoke" instead of  "hope")


----------



## Nicomon

phosphaenus said:


> I can't find any mention above of "*flailing at the air*", which seems fairly close in sense, imagery and register. (You imply that you're looking for something with an rather antiquated, literary feel) I like that one!... en français ce serait (à peu près) _*battre l'air*_
> 
> Depending on context, a near-literal rendering might also work.... e.g. "but sword-strokes in water". Why not? Absolutely, why not?
> 
> I liked "*words writ on water*" and "an exercise in futility"... wasn't sure if the latter was a suggested translation or a comment on the thread  My favorites too


 
I'm probably reading way too much into this, but I also find it interesting to notice the similarity in writing between word*s *and *s*word. On sait que les mots peuvent parfois être très acérés. 

Incidentally, I got curious and looked for the origin of the expression "_coup d'épée dans l'eau_", so for anyone interested, here's an extract:



> Donc si l'on donnait un coup d'épée à un corps immergé dans l'eau, en ne tenant compte que des indications données par l'œil, on frapperait certainement à côté. De là le dicton.


 
For the complete text, click here


----------



## germinal

catay said:


> Is there a wisp of hope here?
> My effort to coin a phrase:
> "like trying to seize a wisp of smoke" (with a play on the word "smoke" instead of "hope")


 
Sure you may as well go chasing after moonbeams - or light a penny candle from a star.


----------



## Gil

Nicomon said:


> For the complete text, click here


Merci.  Le Dictionnaire des curieux (1880) m'était inconnu.
Salut


----------



## Schmoo

Since when are paper towels not useful? They are an incredible help when I spill pop on the counter or sauce on the floor. Maybe we use paper towels more in North America than you do in Europe. 

My suggestion would be..
It's like cutting steak with a butter knife!
Or, if you want something easy and quick for a less creative situation, then "it's no use" would work too.


----------



## Nicomon

Une dernière tentative... et je rends mon tablier.  

_aiming /grasping at emptiness_.


----------



## Coppers

"It doesn't make a difference" is another way of putting it - "barking at the moon" works best for me.


----------



## germinal

Coppers said:


> - "barking at the moon" works best for me.


 
It's what they do best in South Yorkshire.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Coppers said:


> "It doesn't make a difference" is another way of putting it - "barking at the moon" works best for me.





germinal said:


> It's what they do best in South Yorkshire.



Four votes for this one (counting posts #17 and #22!). Wow! I'm impressed. 
I agree it certainly conveys the idea of worthlessness, but where is the fight? I only see waste of energy in a repetitive (stupid?) action whishing this could change events, that don't fit with the missing "one shot" (un coup) of the French expression. But I may be wrong... Maybe someone can explain to me why this one works best.


----------



## Coppers

I see your point, Karine. Un coup has pontential, whilst a bark at the moon is folie. 

So discount my vote and I'll let you know when I have a better idea.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Coppers said:


> [...]
> So discount my vote and I'll let you know when I have a better idea.


OK. As far as I can understand you seem to provide good advices, so I reckon on you. 
Sor far, "flailing at the air" is my favorite. But I'm not sure it works best...


----------



## Docbike

There is only one: flogging a dead horse.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Docbike said:


> There is only one: flogging a dead horse.


J'aimais bien aussi... Mais j'avais cru comprendre qu'il y avait une notion d'acharnement qui ne convenait pas... (cf. this previous post for instance, this thread is getting too long...).
Je le retiens quand même. 
Maybe I have to resign myself there are plenty of expressions but none with exactly the same meaning. 
Thanks a lot.


----------



## Coppers

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> OK. As far as I can understand you seem to provide good advices, so I reckon on you.
> Sor far, "flailing at the air" is my favorite. But I'm not sure it works best...


Oh thanks!

Yes, actually I agree that "flailing at the air" is best. It is similar to your French phrase in that it is about striking something in vane.


----------



## Fildefer

Hi
"It is only beating the air".


----------



## Coppers

Yes, that's similar.

_Beat the air. Also,  beat the wind.  Continue to make futile attempts, fight to no purpose.  For example, *The candidates for office were so much alike that we thought our vote amounted to beating the air*.  These phrases call up a vivid image of someone flailing away at nothing.  [Late 1300s] (_Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/beat-the-air)_
_


----------



## Jubbers

It's about as useful/helpful/effective as a solar-powered flashlight?


----------



## Tresley

Hello KaRiNe,

How did I miss this thread?

I've been working in France, that's why.

I have only just seen this thread, but I have seen this expression before.

I usually translate it as:

"It's like trying to plait fog". (i.e. useless and futile - you can't do it!).

I have looked back and I can't see this translation for 'c'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau'.

What do you think of this commonplace English expression as a translation?


----------



## Jubbers

My one is not a commonplace expression, so don't use it, but it is a decent metaphor.


----------



## The MightyQ

Lost the thread here. BE or AE?
Plait fog - never in North America. Fog is not part of the national identity!
Nice expression though.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

No fog there either, but I like this british image (essayer de faire des nattes au brouillard ?). 
Il like the solar-powered flashlight too. 
But I'm afraid if the main idea of uselessness and futility is there, the other components are missing (fighting and missing the aim with this shot).
Thanks for teaching me new expressions. 

 Edit: you can use the "Search this Thread" feature (on the upper right corner of each page) to check what have been previously said about your proposal allowing you to not bother reading the whole thread before answering. But  you can also read  it all, it's fun!


----------



## Amityville

Karine - I know the feeling - nothing will quite match up to your coup d'épée for futility, violence, stupidity and the incisiveness of the image. I think in a case like this (listen to me, I'm a doctor) you have to forget equivalents and stay true to the image for it to keep its power. "Like slashing at the waves with a machete" ? (Ok I've contemporised and exaggerated but substitute the blade of your choice). It would be understood in the sense that you mean it, no problem.


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Amityville said:


> Karine - I know the feeling - nothing will quite match up to your coup d'épée for futility, violence, stupidity and the incisiveness of the image. I think in a case like this (listen to me, I'm a doctor) you have to forget equivalents and stay true to the image for it to keep its power. "Like slashing at the waves with a machete" ? (Ok I've contemporised and exaggerated but substitute the blade of your choice). It would be understood in the sense that you mean it, no problem.


I never listen to doctors, they always foretell bad news. 
More seriously, the image of the "coup d'épée dans l'eau" is not an exaggeration and also conveys a sort of "knighhood" imagery too... but I understand your advice, it certainly is a good one, thanks.


----------



## Amityville

I meant to say scalpel  
Yes, I admit, the machete was a bit barbarous.
Since then I have thought of "a swordthrust in the ocean" but I'm not so happy with it. The thing is, it mustn't sound overworked. Still mulling.


----------



## Coppers

A phrase a just came across, I've not heard it used before though.

To machete the flood.

Source: http://www.myspace.com/gomachete


----------



## imkal

Bonjour tout le monde!

Quelqu'un pourrait-il me dire comment se traduit cette expresion en anglais?

A blow in the air?

Merci et bonne journée


----------



## musikat

imkal said:


> Quelqu'un pourrait-il me dire comment se traduit cette expresion en anglais?
> 
> A blow in the air?


 
I can't think of an expression that catches the flavour of the French, but a common English phrase with the same basic meaning is "a wasted effort".


----------



## edwingill

A piss in the wind?


----------



## mungolina

I think the English would tend to make up a phrase 'like trying to...' - such as 'like trying to get blood out of a stone', which is a well-known standard phrase, although not a relevant translation for this instance. 

The most well-known and well-used phrase of this sort is 'like trying to find a needle in a haystack'.

'Like trying to nail jelly to the wall' would do quite well - obviously impossible! 'Like trying to make bricks without straw': also a well-known phrase, but somewhat obsolete now: certainly in the UK/US, we don't make bricks with straw in any more. Then again, 'un coup d'epee' is hardly modern. Some others I found, 'like trying to land a 747 on a postage stamp'; 'like trying to thread a piece of limp pasta through a keyhole'; 'like trying to kill an elephant with a waffle iron'; 'like trying to plant cut flowers'. But all of these denote difficulty/impossibility, rather than a wasted effort.

'Like trying to empty an ocean with a teaspoon' is probably the one I found that is most apt for this instance. 

I'm sure there are loads more!


----------



## imkal

Hi all,

Thanks for your help! 

Mungolina all your examples have more or less their translation in French as well but as you say those reflect the difficulty/impossiblity to do something while the other is reflecting the wasted effort. 

I prefer the "piss in the wind" from Edwingmill though hard to use in business mails.

Thanks anyway


----------



## Jean-Michel Carrère

That was like flogging a dead horse !


----------



## musikat

Hmm...

While there are many good, useful expressions on this page, many of which could be used in the same situation, most of them have a different sense than "un coup dans l'eau".

"Pissing," or, the equally common but more polite "spitting into the wind" implies not just a wasted effort, but one which also is likely to come back with consequences.  An example might be reporting the school bully to the teacher, when she will do nothing to stop his behaviour and he, in turn, will come back to take revenge.

"Flogging" or "beating a dead horse" implies an effort which is not merely wasted or unnecessary, but which is in addition to numerous previous efforts which either have already accomplished the goal or have already failed decisively.

Another possibility, which is close but still not exact, is "to flail about."  It isn't very common, but it is used and understood.  Literally, "flailing about" means to swing one's arms wildly but uselessly, without taking clear aim at the intended target, perhaps without even seeing a target.


----------



## JamesM

imkal's question got me thinking again about this.  There is an expression that signifies a threatening gesture that has no effect - "punching air".

Here are a few examples:

http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2005/06/another_off_vic.php

I don't understand what the Democrats are trying to do on this issue. Are they trying to invigorate the marginal undecided and move them to the current Democratic school of thought? The marginal undecided voter they are trying to gain, over this issue, does not care about the UN or Bolton. The Democrats are simply *punching air*.

http://users.rcn.com/peterk.enteract/sob.html

 I probably should have colluded with them, if my intention was to land a blow on Clinton (which it was) let alone to plant a Judas kiss on Blumenthal (which it was not). But every other fragment of Blumenthal’s evidence and description shows - even boasts - that Congressman Graham was essentially* punching air* until the last day of the trial. 


I'm not sure if it's an exact correlation to the French expression, but I believe it's close.


----------



## musikat

geve said:


> Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)


 
More specific than the French expression in question here, the English expression is: "You might as well talk/be talking to a (brick) wall."


----------



## ChiMike

"It is like whistling into the wind"

(Here, of course, we have a more colorful expression, which however not only does not use the same metaphor (a relatively minor problem) but is not in the same register (which is a major problem): had the effect of a fart in a hurricane; or "pissing up a rope")


----------



## aldonse

Ne serait-il pas envisageable de tenter de traduire cette expression littéralement?


----------



## Nicomon

aldonse said:


> Ne serait-il pas envisageable de tenter de traduire cette expression littéralement?


 
Je crois que oui. À ce sujet, je t'invite à lire les posts 56, 73 et 77 de ce fil.


----------



## mungolina

Just thought of this one (because this thread has been irritating me, or rather, not finding an expression that really feels _right _has been)

Fighting a lost cause. 

I can't see this having been posted (but of course, a lot has been said and I might have missed it). It has a sort of fighting/military feel to it. It is a wasted effort. It is used (in the UK, anyway) and it is acceptable in all circles.


----------



## ChiMike

Nicomon said:


> Je crois que oui. À ce sujet, je t'invite à lire les posts 56, 73 et 77 de ce fil.


 
Salut Nico!

En Googlant, j'ai trouvé quatre ou cinq citations en anglais qui emploient:
"a sword-thrust in water" (le trait d'union est ici de rigeur), mais on indique souvent aussi que ce n'est pas une expression anglaise en la mettant entre guillemets. Puis, les citations datent du XIXième.

J'ai aussi fait des recherches sur "like writing on water" (qu'on dit plus souvent que: "words written on water."  Mais il paraît qu'on emploie cette expression (like writing on water) plutôt pour souligner l'impermanance et non pas la futilité.


----------



## ikariotika

I know this thread started a while ago, but what about:

It is like herding cats.

or

It is like trying to push a wet noodle.

Just a couple more suggestions,  

Ikariotika


----------



## bloomiegirl

Nailing this expression sounds like a fool's errand.


----------



## Gil

Vu:


> You're as useless as a sheet with no bed
> You're as useless as a pencil with no lead
> 
> You're as useless as a watch with no time
> You're as useless as a poem with no rhyme
> 
> You're as useless as a book with no words
> You're as useless as a a birdbath with no birds
> 
> You're as useless as an orchestra with no sound
> You're as useless as a football that's not round
> 
> You're as useless as a runner with no legs
> You're as useless as a clothes line without pegs


----------



## mungolina

fool's errand is really good for this!

You know something none of us ever did was ask for the specific context in which it was used - because, whenever a phrase cannot be specifically translated or does not have an obvious exact equivalence, then the context is going to be the principle guide, of course!

If imkal is still around and can find it... this one still continues to bug me and I'd love to find one that makes me breath a sigh of satisfaction lol

Happy Christmas all, while I'm here


----------



## KaRiNe_Fr

Hello mungolina,


mungolina said:


> [...]
> You know something none of us ever did was ask for the specific context in which it was used - because, whenever a phrase cannot be specifically translated or does not have an obvious exact equivalence, then the context is going to be the principle guide, of course! [...]


I can't agree more with you. It's one of disadvantages of merging threads without any mention.
Here I thought this was mine and was about to say "hey, why don't you read the 1st post?"... but to my surprise, there are at least 3 merged posts  there and my context is in post #5, there is surely another one for post #1 and another again for imkal's post...
I'm always glad to read new ideas about this very French expression: thanks all for the new ones I've just discovered!


----------



## imkal

Hi All, 

I'm still there but can't remember the exact context I was planning to do with this expression at that point of time but Fool's errand is not matching my understanding neither. 

The French expression 'Un coup (d'épée) dans l'eau' is generally refering to something you did which is over and for which you missed your goal but for which you still consider hope for a second try and success.

In my understanding of the english expressions, I'm always refering to something I'm doing not something I've done unless I put them in the past tense and last but not least, it's way too insisting on the uselessness of my action and not on the hope coming from the fact that I'm the one holding the sword and striking.

Thanks and have a nice day,
Patrice


----------



## Leunamme

In the series "as useful as", I like this one best, I think.
It was as useful as a string condom. Still gives you the idea of the sword, doesn't it?


----------



## loze85

In response to Imkal:

How about it was like "closing the barn door once the horse had bolted"?

xx


----------



## bloomiegirl

Interesting, Imkal. Although it may be implied by your context (whatever that may have been), I'm not sure I see the persistence of hope as inherent in this expression, which is found...


in TLFi as: "_(au fig.) tentative inutile..._"
in Dictionnaire des curieux (1880) as: "_une tentative sans succès_," etc.
in Proz as: "a vain effort," etc.
in Wiki Proverbs as: "catch the wind with a net," etc.
In any case, thank you for initiating what has turned out to be a thought-provoking thread.


----------



## imkal

Hi Bloomiegirl,

I'm reading the term "tentative" as an attempt to do something whihc was indeed useless or did failed but I can still try it another way. that's were

There is no sense of a second try when I'm writing "It was like catching the wind with a net". 

Thinking of it, I may make another difference in the usage of the expression:

"Autant frapper un coup dans l'eau" can be translated as " Better try catching the wind with a net"

But  "Ce fut un coup dans l'eau" I can't translate. 

Thanks and have a nice day, 
Happy New Year everybody
Imkal


----------



## Rominet

imkal said:


> Hi Bloomiegirl,
> 
> I'm reading the term "tentative" as an attempt to do something whihc was indeed useless or did failed but I can still try it another way. that's were
> 
> There is no sense of a second try when I'm writing "It was like catching the wind with a net".
> 
> Thinking of it, I may make another difference in the usage of the expression:
> 
> "Autant frapper un coup dans l'eau" can be translated as " Better try catching the wind with a net"
> 
> But "Ce fut un coup dans l'eau" I can't translate.
> it has been a vain effort. Correct but less visual, that's it. Sometimes, we don't have the same expressions in both languages.
> 
> Thanks and have a nice day,
> Happy New Year everybody
> Imkal


----------



## The MightyQ

I was listening to the radio the other day, and heard Stuart Maclean extolling the virtues of printed newspapers, which are on the decline. "I may be slashing at waves..." he said, before going on about how he for one would fight to keep printed news alive. I remembered this thread, and thought, how perfect! It is almost an exact translation, but captures the image so well.


----------



## akaAJ

The French is certainly classic (who carries a sword?).  I have been racking my brain for a classic English equivalent of an act which is not only completely futile, but whose result disappears without trace after a few seconds, and haven't found one.  Many of the examples above are actions that carry unfortunate consequences in and of themselves (e.g., spitting in the wind).  "Trying to herd cats" expresses futility, but is hardly classic.  Ditto "pushing on a rope" (not to be confused with "Go piss up a rope").  Unite, Anglophones ! Surely Shakespeare has something to say here.


----------



## Kat LaQ

"*tilting at windmills*" comes to mind. _(Grace à Cervantes)_

It keeps a bit of the image of *épée.*

Apologies - I see this idea has been offered up a few pages ago.  However, I submit it is definitely "tilting" and not "chasing".  In contrast to what has been stated, I believe "tilting at windmills" IS in use in AE, though certainly more in writing than in speech.  "Tilt" has an old meaning of "joust", and is used to give the image of rushing forward towards an (imaginary in this case) enemy.


----------



## musikat

Kat LaQ said:


> ...I believe "tilting at windmills" IS in use in AE....



Yes, very much alive and well, even in speech, although it does carry a bit of a literary sense.  It also is worth noting that it conveys more than merely a sense of futility, which seems the main point of "un coup d'épée dans l'eau"; it distinctly implies a noble cause, fighting the good fight even when it's hopeless.


----------



## akaAJ

Sorry about my redundancy (I didn't notice that I was on page 7 of the thread !! ).  "Tilting at windmills" is perfect (I see the French use Cervantes too), but honor is not yet saved, I think (where does "catch wind with a net" come from ?? ).  Still no Shakespeare.  As far as "slashing at waves", I'd bet it was a conscious translation from the French.


----------



## mgarizona

I'm afraid "*tilting at windmills*" expresses something more like paranoia or delusion ... it's about striking out against a foe that isn't there. The existence of the water in the French phrase is not in question.

The closest "classical" equivalent would be "*to plough the sands*":

_"We shall call to the water below the bridges to return and replenish our lands
We shall harness horses (Death's own pale horses) and scholarly plough the sands"_
- Rudyard Kipling

As I've seen Char use the phrase _laboureurs de sable_ I always assumed French had the same expression. (On which he was riffing, I mean.) But likely he was getting it directly from Juvenal. (See Satire VII, 48-49.)

We do have the phrase "*chasing rainbows*" ... which expresses futility, but suggests fool's errands of a more romantic or sentimental nature.


----------



## akaAJ

Eureka.  I can't go back to Juvenal with mgarizona, but a phrase tickled my memory, and I found it in Ben Jonson's "The New Inn", where the dejected lover Lovel says
Come Indignation, now, and be my Mistress, ...
I will go catch the Wind first in a Sieve,
Weigh Smoak, and measure Shadows, plough the Water.
And sow my Hopes there, e're I stay in Love.

So there's "wind in a net", "weigh smoak", "measure shadows", "plough the water"


http://hollowaypages.com/jonson1692inn.htm


----------



## mgarizona

ArrogantJew said:


> Eureka.  I can't go back to Juvenal with mgarizona, but a phrase tickled my memory, and I found it in Ben Jonson's "The New Inn", where the dejected lover Lovel says <snip>
> I will go catch the Wind first in a Sieve,
> Weigh Smoak, and measure Shadows, plough the Water.
> And sow my Hopes there, e're I stay in Love.
> 
> So there's "wind in a net", "weigh smoak", "measure shadows", "plough the water"



Nice work. (I snipped yr quote to avoid moderator intervention!) Though shadows can be measured readily enough. I wonder what he meant. Now *I'll* have to dig.

As for the Juvenal, I have a French version here that reads: "_nous persistons d'un cœur vaillant à tracer les sillons dans la poussière et, d'une charrue stérile, à labourer la grève_."

NOTE: In case I'd given the impression that I considered 'plough the sands" as 'classical' because it appears in Kipling, the OED gives it back to Greene in 1590: _With sweating browes I long haue plowde the sands ... Repent hath sent me home with emptie hands._ It glosses the phrase as "_a frequent type of useless labor_." ... I just like the Kipling line's crazy scansion.


----------



## akaAJ

mgarizona, I think "measure shadows" is from the trope "fleeting shadows" (as in "We are but fleeting shadows").  I'd guess the image is of shadows produced by a _nearby_ quasi point source (a flickering candle) as people move about a table or in a room---the shadows change size and shape too fast to measure.  Gnomon shadows are another story.


----------



## mgarizona

ArrogantJew said:


> mgarizona, I think "measure shadows" is from the trope "fleeting shadows" (as in "We are but fleeting shadows").  I'd guess the image is of shadows produced by a _nearby_ quasi point source (a flickering candle) as people move about a table or in a room---the shadows change size and shape too fast to measure.  Gnomon shadows are another story.



Nice. Consider too the several instances in Shakespeare of shadows used as symbols of swiftness: "swift as a shadow," "love like a shadow flies," "faster than the sun's beams driving back shadows over louring hills."

This presents the possibility that 'measure' is used not to mean 'take the measurement of' but rather 'moderate, restrain, slow the pace of.'

Interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

NOTE: As for Jonson's "plough the waves" ... the OED records "plough the air" alongside the more prevalent "plough the sands" as the 'type' of futility. I suspect the fact that its common for great ships to be said to 'plow the waves' in simply descriptive terms, with no notion of futile seeding attached thereto, explains why his metaphor didn't get more play.


----------



## mungolina

Well... I'm rather proud of myself for having set off such a long thread! yes OK it's nearly a year old now, but... thank you all for your enthusiastic input. I would note that 'plow the waves', I had always taken the word 'plow' not to be the same word as the word 'plough' - although of course there is the sense of forcing/breaking through something. Therefore I do not personally equate 'plough the water' with 'plow the waves', and I like 'plough the water' or 'ploughing water' for a translation of the original phrase, since it retains the liquid. 

I have to agree that 'slashing at waves' is probably a conscious translation (with license) from the French. I have googled it and find 'slashing waves' in use only in skiiing/snowboarding, which I don't believe has any link to the phrase as used by the person on the radio. 

All that being said, concious translations of phrases from one language to the other are used.


----------



## JamesM

mungolina said:
			
		

> ...I had always taken the word 'plow' not to be the same word as the word 'plough'...


 
As far as I know, "plow" and "plough" are two spellings of the same word.


----------



## mgarizona

JamesM said:


> As far as I know, "plow" and "plough" are two spellings of the same word.



Quite. And no matter how you spell it I'm afraid the phrase "to plow/plough the waves/water" does not serve here. It contains no sense of futility.

The OED glosses it: _Of a ship, boat, swimming animal, etc.: To cleave the surface of the water._


----------



## akaAJ

Let's go back to my ancient post (#127), quoting Ben Jonson: _All_ the tropes express futile acts, and "plough the Water, and sow my Hopes there" is not the least of them.


----------



## mgarizona

akaAJ said:


> Let's go back to my ancient post (#127), quoting Ben Jonson: _All_ the tropes express futile acts, and "plough the Water, and sow my Hopes there" is not the least of them.



With all respect to Jonson and his hopes, that citation can't be expected to counter centuries of usage, still current usage, in which to use the phrase "plow the water" all by itself puts us in an entirely different idiom.


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## akaAJ

I agree that to "plow the waves" has a long history of application to ships (likewise, "plow the sea" or more  "plow the seven seas"), but "water" is really not common in such expressions, _pace _OED.  "Plow _through_ the water" is a different story.


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## Wackycat

geve said:


> Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)



*amounts to shooting in the dark.*


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## Saints22

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> - "Alors, qu'est-ce que ça a donné, ton intervention au procès de Robert ?"
> - "C'est un coup d'épée dans l'eau... Robert a quand même été condamné à 1000 euros d'amende !"



-So, how did it go, your intervention at Robert's Trial?
-Another rat race... Robert got fined for 1000 euros after all.


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## bloomiegirl

Saints22 said:


> -So, how did it go, your intervention at Robert's Trial?
> -Another rat race... Robert got fined for 1000 euros after all.



Maybe not... "rat race" has an aspect of dullness and repetition and/or striving for improvement that probably doesn't fit here. See the online dictionary:

*rat race* 
*noun *_Informal _. 
any exhausting, unremitting, and usually competitive activity or routine, especially a pressured urban working life spent trying to get ahead with little time left for leisure, contemplation, etc.

[...]

Idioms & Phrases
*rat race*
Fierce competition to maintain or improve one's position in the workplace or social life. For example, _You may not realize what a rat race it is to get research grants _. This termpresumably alludes to the rat's desperate struggle for survival. [Colloquial; first half of 1900s]​


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## mgarizona

geve said:


> Isn't there an expression in English with "shouting at" something (trees? the sky?...), that would mean something like "se battre contre des moulins à vent"? (ça aurait le côté combatif et l'inefficacité...)



I can't help wondering if you're thinking of one of the most famous phrases to have come from the series The Simpsons ... "Old Man Yells At Cloud" ... which has taken on a life of its own: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Old_Man_and_the_Key


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