# loża szyderców po angielsku i hiszpańsku



## werta

Macie pomysł jak przetłumaczyć wyrażenie 'loża szyderców' na angielski i hiszpański? Chodzi mi o grupę ludzi, która siedzi z boku, nie uczestniczy w życiu jakiejś grupy, a tylko ją krytykuje i czuje się lepsza od reszty.

Z góry dziękuję


----------



## LilianaB

Deriders, maybe. An assembly of deriders.


----------



## majlo

Hmm, that's interesting. My try: A box of scoffers.


----------



## dreamlike

Nie wiem jak w Hiszpańskim, ale myślę, że w Angielskim dokładnie takiego samego wyrażenia próżno szukać. Można się pokusić o znalezienie lub wymyślenie czegoś podobnego. 

There's nothing wrong with "an assembly of" or "a box of" - I like both of them. My guess would be "a band of" - *a band of scoffers. A band of mockers. *


----------



## majlo

Nie zauważyłem, że ma być po hiszpańsku też.  Może: _palco de burló__nes?_


----------



## NotNow

Much depends on the context and how formal you want to be. One of these may work: cry babies, naysayers, whiners, wet blankets, party poopers, sourpusses, and prophets of doom.

If you are referring to a group informally, I suggest "a bunch of."


----------



## dreamlike

Party poopers? I think you got carried away with that one. What does a person who spoils the party have to do with mockers? I can't conceive of a context in which the translation of "loża szyderców" would be "party poopers". The same goes for wet blanket - such kind of person indeed lacks enthusiasm and wouldn't be very helpful in working in group, but to make things worse, wet blankets are very depressing and incapable of being witty and making derisive comments for which "szydercy" are renowned.


----------



## NotNow

The term is used figuratively and does not refer exclusively to people at a party.

I didn't know that szydercy are known for their wit.  Thanks, dreamlike, I learned something.  

Does the word "killjoys" work?


----------



## LilianaB

No. It does not. Szydercy are mockers or deriders. The word is heavier than killjoys, and has a different meaning.


----------



## dreamlike

I realise that the usage of "party pooper" is not restricted to the one connected with parties, but I'm afraid it doesn't work here. 

Yes, wits are distinctive trait of "szydercy". Comments they make often verge on insolence, and that's why it's rather derogatory term, but they are very shrewd people indeed.


----------



## LilianaB

They are witty, but they don't have to be wise. They are rather stupid, in my opinion, since they turn to such means.


----------



## dreamlike

Have they been devoid of wits, they would be unable to make witty comments


----------



## majlo

LilianaB said:


> No. It does not. Szydercy are mockers or deriders.


Are you sure it's the only two words that describe this kind of people?


----------



## BezierCurve

Przypomina się tu początek psalmów, tam, gdzie jest mowa o takim zgromadzeniu szyderców. W angielskich wersjach jest tak:

http://bible.cc/psalms/1-1.htm, 

 czyli np. "seat of scoffers/mockers/the scornful".


----------



## 涼宮

majlo said:


> Nie zauważyłem, że ma być po hiszpańsku też.  Może: _palco de burló__nes?_



Palco doesn't fit the context, as I see it, and 'burlones' doesn't use an accent, it's ''grave''.  

in Spanish, we could say: _una panda de burlones_. But the word ''burlón'' is just silly in this context or simply not strong enough. I would say ''criticón''. _Panda de criticones_ or _panda de metiches_.

So, if I got right the Polish description, what about ''a bunch of scoffers'' in English?


----------



## NotNow

The problem is, however, the word scoffers isn't exactly on the tip of everyone's tongue.  It isn't often found in spoken English.  That's why I'm trying to think of something more colloquial.  

The verb, on the other hand, is often heard.  Context would be helpful.


----------



## majlo

Thank you, Suzumiya, for the corrections. What about this, thouh?

http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=burlon
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=687323


----------



## Szkot

A coarse , UK way of saying it would be 'a bunch/load of smartarse pisstakers' - smartarse for the 'wit' and pisstakers for the scoffing.


----------



## LilianaB

Your suggestion Majlo, was good too, but not killjoys or party poopers.


----------



## LilianaB

Hi, Werta. In fact what do you want this expression for. Can you provide context, kindly. If you mean a real lodge, like masonic lodge, it will be mockers lodge, but context is important.


----------



## werta

Hi everyone, thank you for your replies.

The context is my everyday life, as I started living in an international community and would like to transport this expression from Polish to languages I use now because sometimes it fits perfectly to the situation. For instance, when we laugh at each other, e.g. in a group of 4 ppl 3 laugh at the fourth one I used to say in Polish 'ale z nas loża szyderców'. Or we go to the cinema and criticize a lot of things. These are the situations I would like to say it


----------



## LilianaB

What is the origin of this phrase in Polish?


----------



## dreamlike

The thing is there is no good English equivalent - all these phrases that appeared in this thread are fine, each to a certain extent, but none of them have the overtones of the Polish expressions. You can try googling some of them and you'll either get a handful of results, or none. My suggestion would be *a bunch of mockers, *although it leaves a lot be desired, too. 



Szkot said:


> A coarse , UK way of saying it would be 'a bunch/load of smartarse pisstakers' - smartarse for the 'wit' and pisstakers for the scoffing.



As much as I like this suggestion, I think it's more of your way of saying it rather than "UK". Also, I think it's too colloquial.


----------



## LilianaB

Yes, I like Dreamlike's suggestion. In this context it should be probably a bunch of mockers.


----------



## Szkot

dreamlike said:


> As much as I like this suggestion, I think it's more of your way of saying it rather than "UK". Also, I think it's too colloquial.



I'm sure you know best .


----------



## dreamlike

My point was that you came up with this pair of words for the sake of this thread and it's not a fixed phrase. We can post in in the English section and see how many native speakers ever heard it used.


----------



## LilianaB

Smart-ass is quite common, in fact. The other word, I have not personally heard, but it is most likely more British. You could probably say: we are just a bunch of smart-asses, mocking other people. It is not my favorite kind of language, but still.


----------



## dreamlike

Don't get my wrong, I'm sure any native speaker would have no difficulty understanding this conjunction but it's not as common as "loża szyderców" and doesn't have the appeal of it. "Smartarse pisstakers" implies some annoyance at such people, and it would be most likely used by other people to describe them, whereas the Polish phrase is something this kind of people use to refer to themselves...


----------



## LilianaB

What is the origin of loza szydercow? It is a totally new expression to me. I know exactly what it means but I do not know how it came into use. I did some investigation, so I know that there is even a song by a heavy metal singer entitled: Loza Szydercow. I could not find the origin of this phrase.


----------



## dreamlike

Well, the etymology isn't much of a mystery, really. "Loża" is a place where some special people have their sits - during a game, for instance. _Loża VIPów - a luxury box _I can easily picture some mockers sitting in a box, having fun deriding other people. I don't know when was it first used, and it might prove difficult to find out, but it's very popular these days.


----------



## LilianaB

Thank you. Could you provide some context how it is being used.


----------



## dreamlike

*(1) A girl who sees her classmates taunting other classmates says to them:*
- Za kogo wy się macie? Za jakąś lożę szyderców?

Klasowa loża szyderców -* (2) students in a class who tend to deride other students. 
*
*(3) Jesteśmy czymś na wzór loży szyderców, wyśmiewamy idiotyzmy tego świata.

*Also, there is this kind of a TV show where two or more people sit and comment on the current afairs, often mockingly. It could be easily entitled "Loża szyderców".


----------



## BezierCurve

Another example would be the two older guys in Jim Henson's Muppet Show.


----------



## dreamlike

A Polish example could be "Szkło kontaktowe", although they are not nearly as funny as the guys from the Muppet Show...


----------



## 涼宮

majlo said:


> Thank you, Suzumiya, for the corrections. What about this, thouh?
> 
> http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=burlon
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=687323



The thing is that he described 'loża szyderców' as a person who also criticizes, in Spanish there isn't a word that conveys both meanings, mocking and critic, but since a person who criticizes a lot usually mocks too it's safer to translate it as criticón, if not, then I would suggest a longer phrase: _son una panda de criticones, burlones y arrogantes. (a bunch of __faultfinders, mockers and arrogants_)


----------



## dreamlike

We can try to come up with some accurate expressions, be they English or Spanish, but this task will prove elusive because of the uniqueness of the Polish prase. As for English, are we all in agreement that "a bunch of mockers/scoffers" is the closest translation one can think of?



			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> You could probably say: we are just a bunch of smart-asses, mocking other people




On second thought, it would be self-depracting to call oneself_ smartass or smartarse _and that's not the case with "loża szyderców". Is an honor to be a member of one, at least for some people.


----------



## LilianaB

A mocker cannot mean anything positive though, to be proud of. Can szyderca mean anything positive?


----------



## dreamlike

There is more to it than just being a mocker, which I think is mildly negative term. There are some people, though, who are happy to be referred to as "szydercy" and don't consider it negative. Anyway, if one is a member of "loża szyderców" he/she feels as if superior to other people and entitled, for whatever reason, to ridicule others. That's why they consider an honour to be a member of "loża szyderców". It's better than being at the receiving end of someone's else jokes. What we should make of that is a completely different story... I have nothing against mockers as long as they don't take it to the extreme...


----------



## LilianaB

How would they mock, the lodge members? Do you have any examples? I just want to have a vague idea what kind of mocking we are talking.


----------



## BezierCurve

I have a feeling we hit some cultural barrier here... Being a smart-ass is indeed perceived differently in different cultures. 

While they might feel they're so damn witty and popular with people in their Polish version, they wouldn't be as much popular doing the same thing here. It's all about other people's attitude towards negative criticism I guess.


----------



## LilianaB

Constructive criticism usually has to be disguised through the use of figurative language, and very few people, I have in mind mostly writers, were able to do it without sounding like whiners or a bunch of rude demagogs. George Bernard Shaw was one of the greatest. His mockery was almost without mocking: pure wit.


----------



## majlo

LilianaB said:


> Your suggestion Majlo, was good too, but not killjoys or party poopers.


Say what?



涼宮 said:


> The thing is that he described 'loża szyderców' as a person who also criticizes, in Spanish there isn't a word that conveys both meanings, mocking and critic, but since a person who criticizes a lot usually mocks too it's safer to translate it as criticón, if not, then I would suggest a longer phrase: _son una panda de criticones, burlones y arrogantes. (a bunch of __faultfinders, mockers and arrogants_)



No, I mean what about the accent?

"Loża szyderców" is not a person. It's a group of people who mock.


----------



## 涼宮

Do you mean why burlones is not accented? Simple, because the rule of _palabras graves_ say so. You don't accent a palabra grave when it ends in -n, -s or vowel, whereas you accent agudas when they end by -n, -s or vowel.


----------



## werta

as well from a tv programme. From Wikipedia:  Częścią stacji jest również "Picture Czat", moderowany przez tzw. Lożę Szyderców. W Loży Szyderców zasiadają ludzie z 4fun.tv, którzy na żywo rozmawiają z widzami, żartują i prowokują, organizują konkursy, informują o akcjach 4fun.tv.


----------



## majlo

涼宮 said:


> Do you mean why burlones is not accented? Simple, because the rule of _palabras graves_ say so. You don't accent a palabra grave when it ends in -n, -s or vowel, whereas you accent agudas when they end by -n, -s or vowel.



Yes, but I pasted two links which show the word accented. Could you please comment on that?


----------



## 涼宮

majlo said:


> Yes, but I pasted two links which show the word accented. Could you please comment on that?



That's what I just explained  it is accented because it's _aguda_ but in plural it becomes _grave_ according to the rules I told you


----------



## LilianaB

Szkot said:


> A coarse , UK way of saying it would be 'a bunch/load of smartarse pisstakers' - smartarse for the 'wit' and pisstakers for the scoffing.


 Accidentally I was just thinking about this thread not such a long time ago. I think you are absolutely right, Szkot, for BE. Also a bunch of a-holes would be great. This is it, I think.


----------



## POLSKAdoBOJU

I know of two expressions in English that convey the meaning of someone sitting on the sidelines and criticing someone else, without themselves getting involved.

The first is "*backseat driver,"* which is someone who tells others how to do things, without doing them himself. This expression originates from an annoying passenger who tells the driver how to drive, while sitting in the back seat.

The second expression comes from American football and is "*Monday morning quarterback"* meaning a football spectator who, in hind-sight after the game, points out where the team went wrong, as if he could do a better job. Most American football games are played on Sunday, therefore on Monday there is lots of discussion by fans and sports commentators in the media about the games and what could have been done differently.


----------

