# BCS: History of dialects vs. standards



## Wikislav

Before all, I may inform all interested in entitled matter, that in the periodical 'Ognjište' (Karlovac 1992-1999) appeared in Croatian a recent series of essential comparative studies by prof. _Božidar Vančik_ on the correlations between Chakavian and Kaykavian, and on the early history of the last one in correlations with Shtokavian, Slovenian, and West Slavic languages. Firstly, he documented in the field another evident dialectal _continuum-gradient_ in North-South direction: from the northern Kaykavians between Mura & Sava, then central intermediate _Ikavish-Kaykavians_ between Sava and Kapela ranges, and the southwestern archaic Chakavians the most typical in Istra and islands. In historical records (texts etc.) appeared firstly Chakavians yet from 10th century that initially may reach up to Balaton, then followed the transitional Ikavish-Kaykavians (15th-17th cent.), and lastly the typical Ekavish-Kaykavians since 17th. cent. From these and other indications he concluded that true medieval Kaykavians were lacking and they may be subsequently evolved from earlier northern Chakavians by a hybrid influence from Slovenian. 

There was yet another similar, wider thread for all Slavic languages (t=1166820 now closed), but many specific problems related to BCS dialects there were overlooked. On the other hand, some arguments were founded on the outdated informations from  popular Wikipedia, neglecting recent  documented studies, and contrasting to the field reality. Lets first  indicate the related overlookings and Wiki-disinformations (from newer  to oldest) related chiefly to Croatia and Bosnia in the next posters. My field insights on BCS-dialects are limited chiefly to Croatia, Bosnia, and less in Montenegro, including also some Torlakians imigrating there since the last regional war. Our research group spent in the field about 90 months in documentary interviewing of different dialectal speakers. Thus please subsequent discutants to help in elucidating other comparable dialectal corellations from Serbia, Slovenia, and elsewhere.


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## DenisBiH

My chief question about Chakavian has not really changed since one of my discussions with sokol here. It can be briefly summarized into the following question:

Prior to, say, the 15th century, which were the main differences between Chakavian and (Western) Shtokavian as documented in inscriptions, charters, books and other documents?


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## Wikislav

_Field presence of Croatian dialects:_ In the presentations on Croatian dialects, one usually repeated in general that the Standard Yekavish-Shtokavian was the predominating one there, and Chakavian, Kaykavian, and Torlakian are together rare. Due to an insufficient insight in Bosnia and elsewhere, I cannot offer here the exact dialectal percentages there, but the real presence of the native speakers of main 4 dialects in Croatia and their major variants is the next one in decreasing order: 

*Ikavish-Shtokavians* are the most numerous including _46%_ Croats chiefly in Dalmatian mainland, Lika highland and Slavonia plains. Their main agglomeration now is Split town with 2/3 or cca _150,000_ Ikavians. They are rather stable, i.e. losing in towns by standard Yekavians, but also increasing in south by assimilating coastal Chakavians. 

*Kaykavians* (all) are a rather stable dialect and the second frequent one including *1/3* or _31%_ Croats, with the most numerous _Ekavish-Kaykavians _including Zagreb capital with 1/2 or _420,000_ speaking _Kaykavian koiné_, then also 5% of *Iekavish-Kaykavians* chiefly in Zagorje hills, and 4% of *Ikavish-Kaykavians* scattered in mid-western Croatia. They are losing in southeast by standard Shtokavians but also increasing in southwest by assimilating Chakavians. 

*Chakavians* are a threatened dying dialect now including hardly _11%_ Croats with a negative natality, chiefly in Istria peninsula and many islands, rarely also scattered along Dalmatian coast and in central Croatian inland. Their main agglomeration now is Rijeka city with 1/2 or cca _100,000_ Chakavians. 
*
Yekavish-Shtokavians* close to official standard: as native speakers with this maternal idiom, these ones include hardly _7% to 10%_ Croats now increasing due to media and schooling. Their main original areas in Croatia are at Dubrovnik, Cavtat, and Slunj. 

*Torlakians* formerly were rare in Croatian towns only, but recently since the regional war they increased to _2%_ with an excessive natality, as the Catholic BCS immigrants from Kosova and Rumania, now declared as Croats chiefly in Zagreb and northern Dalmatia.


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## Wikislav

*DenisBH:* "_Prior to, say, the 15th century, which were the main differences between  Chakavian and (Western) Shtokavian as documented in inscriptions,  charters, books and other documents?     _"

After my recent direct insights in available medieval texts and inscriptions between Drava and Adriatic, the related situation in the field may be as follows: 

1. Northwards in _Slovinje_ (now Slavonija), the supposed eastwards expansion of Kaykavians was an idealised hypothesis without any old texts so far found. Recently one detected some short Glagolitic graffiti in medieval churches of western Slavonija, and these ones were not Kaykavian, but probably Šćakavian or even Chakavian. For a better insight other additional texts are needed. 

2. In medieval central and southwest _Croatia_ between Istra and Cetina, and from Kupa and Una to Adriatic widely predominated the archaic *Ekavish-Chakavian* mostly in Glagolitic script, rather similar as actual Chakavians of Istria and Kvarner gulf. It is important that the recent Radiocarbon dating (Inst. R.Bošković) of an early Glagolitic inscription in Plomin resulted by 7th century (?!). 

3. From western _Bosnia_ to Herzegovina widely prevailed the medieval *Ikavish-Šćakavian* and eastwards the _Yekavish-Šćakavian_, both written in Bosančica and rather similar as the actual related dialects in Bosnia. 

4. At southern Adriatic from Neretva estuary to Boka Kotorska and in adjacent isles almost prevailed the medieval *Yekavish-Chakavian* as is now conserved only in Lastovo and Janjina (mid-Pelješac), written both in Bosančica or in Latinica.


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## Wikislav

*Croatia's urban dialects:* Let us overview the recent dialectal relations in some major Croatian towns. Yet in start one may consider, that now the Yekavish standard idiom in the private communication is prevailing almost only in remote medium towns as Osijek and Dubrovnik, but in other important Croatian cities it is minoritary in private communications and almost restricted to the school and administration only. One compares here the urban dialects a century ago before WW1, and recent ones. There are two main reasons for that urban neglecting and rejecting of the official standard: It is compatible with the native maternal idiom only for _7% to 10%_ Yekavish-Shtokavian Croats, and for all other predominating *90%* of Croatian speakers (Ikavians, Chakavians, Kaykavians - see details in my fomer post), this newer standard was not their maternal native speaking, learnt only subsequently by school drilling. Then also it was imposed there chiefly by administration during past 7 decennia, and now it is _stigmatized_ as only a newer one in the historical sequence of imposed foreign languages: Italian - German - Yugoslav ...etc. 

There is also interesting urban correlation with the related loanwords from these 'ruling' languages. Formerly the assimilated urban _germanisms_ were the most frequent in Zagreb and Osijek, and _romanisms_ chiefly in the coastal towns: now both are disappearing, being used chiefly by urban elders. Up to WW1, _turcizms_ in Croatian towns were very rare, then being imposed during Yugoslavia and used chiefly by illiterate and half-literate immigrants. Recently the increasing use of the global anglicisms very increased, especially among younger people who often spontaneously reject almost all inherited romanisms, germanisms and balkanisms, replacing them en masse by new anglicisms. So by rejecting standard dozen years ago, in Zagreb city suddenly swelled a vital _'*Anglo-Kaykavian*'_ now spoken by cca 100,000 users, in port Rijeka a similar _'Anglo-Chakavian'_ (cca 30,000 speakers), in Split an _'Anglo-Ikavian'_ (20,000 users) ...etc. 

*Zagreb* capital: This largest Croatian city northwards and westwards toward Slovenia was surrounded by densely populated Kaykavian villages, presenting till now the main immigrants there. Southwards and eastwards to WW1 were the extensive uninhabited forests, and these southeastern woodlands longly isolated Zagreb from Balkan Shtokavian influences, starting mostly by Yugoslavia there. Now it includes the largest dialectal assemblage in Croatia with _420,000 Kaykavians_ i.e. 1/2 its citizens, then 1/3 Shtokavians mostly in new _suburbs_ (Dubrava & Novi Zagreb), and the rest are others. In central city persisted cca 11,000 archaic _Agramer_ Kaykavians, chiefly elders. In satellite towns Sesvete and Velka Gorica occur also 1/2 Kaykavians or 50,000 each. _Varaždin_ is now the most typical town of 60,000 predominating Kaykavians. 

*Rijeka* harbor was traditionally Chakavian, and now it is also the main agglomeration of cca _100,000 Chakavians_ or 1/2 its citizens immigrating from Istra and islands, 1/4 are Kaykavian immigrants from  backland, and the rest Shtokavians and others. The earlier Romance _Fiumani_ now are almost extinct there. 

*Split* harbor a century ago was predominantly Chakavian. Now it is the largest agglomeration of _150,000 Ikavish-Shtokavians_ or 3/4 its citizens, mostly immigrating from Dalmatian backlands. The rest are Yekavians and others. The Chakavian immigrants from near islands are mostly assimilated as Ikavish-Šćakavians, and its original urban Chakavians in old-city 'Varoš' now are nearly extinct. A similar dialectal sharing occurs in other coastal towns as _Pula, Zadar_ and _Šibenik_, each with cca 1/2 Ikavian citizens, the rest being Yekavians and Chakavian islanders mostly assimilated as Ikavish-Šćakavians. Note: _Livno_ is the main town with 2/3 of Ikavish-Šćakavians in adjacent southwestern Bosnia. 

*Dubrovnik* is the unique coastal town with a traditional _Yekavian_ majority of 3/4 its citizens, the rest being Chakavian islanders assimilated as _Yekavish-Šćakavians_, and other dialectal minorities. Initially in middle ages this town was populated also by the exotic _Yekavish-Chakavians_, now persisting as relicts only in Lastovo island and Janjina in Pelješac. 

*Osijek* in northeastern Slavonija plain is also an important town with predominating Shtokavians: 1/2 are Yekavians, 1/4 Ekavians, the rest Ikavians and others. The old urban idiom of _Essekers_ with abundant germanisms there is now near extinction.


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## Ayazid

I wonder how did the linguists who wrote these texts which you are quoting from collected these data about numbers of people speaking each dialect. Do people in Croatia declare their dialects during population census or something? (joking )

By the way, I find it very interesting that there seemingly hasn't been any significant dialect leveling in Croatia during the last 50 years with media, schooling and internal migration. At least, it is what has been going on in a greater part of Europe in the last century (including the Czech republic.) I mean, people not necessarily speak the standard language, but they do speak something rather similar to it (in comparison with some old rural dialects) and without huge regional differences in vocabulary or grammar.


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## DenisBiH

Ayazid said:


> I wonder how did the linguists who wrote these texts which you are quoting from collected these data about numbers of people speaking each dialect. Do people in Croatia declare their dialects during population census or something? (joking )
> 
> By the way, I find it very interesting that there seemingly hasn't been any significant dialect leveling in Croatia during the last 50 years with media, schooling and internal migration. At least, it is what has been going on in a greater part of Europe in the last century (including the Czech republic.) I mean, people not necessarily speak the standard language, but they do speak something rather similar to it (in comparison with some old rural dialects) and without huge regional differences in vocabulary or grammar.




The way I understood WikiSlavs's posts is that dialect leveling has and is happening and Chakavian seems to be the loser there, but Kaykavian and Shtokavian-Ikavian manage to survive by having still a large population base (and they also have an image of their own as historical literary dialects). Moreover, I believe there is a difference in perception of dialect non-standard speech in Croatia, at least in post-war years. For example, you can read Ikavian on forums, listen to it in songs, even hear it sometimes on television as far as I have noticed (although standard language predominates there). On the other hand, there is also a large number of Shtokavian-Ikavian speakers in Bosnia-Herzegovina (pretty much all, or a large majority of, Bosniaks and Croats west of Bosna-Neretva line are from a historically Ikavian dialect area) yet over here Ikavian is much less present, at least in public. I have a good friend from a village close to  Gornji Vakuf in Central Bosnia (a Bosniak). His native dialect is Ikavian and he still speaks it with family and other people from his village and surrounding area, but according to him they use Ijekavian standard even with foreigners visiting their area. He started putting an Ikavian word here or there speaking with me only after we became good friends. I don't know about Croats in Western Herzegovina, they might use it more over there, but from what I've noticed they tend to prefer standard Ijekavian Croatian in public.

My mother is from a town in western Bosnia, a region that was historically Ikavian. Only in the speech of my late grandmother did I notice a few Ikavisms, and my mother is completely Ijekavian (it might also have to do with the fact that her native town is mixed with a large number of native Ijekavian speakers and that she moved out from it relatively young).

Here is a map of pre-1990s Shtokavian dialects. Yelow is Ijekavian-Shtokavian "East Herzegovinian" dialect that is the basis of the standard languages (at least Ijekavian ones). Red is Ikavian-Shtokavian ("Bosnian-Dalmatian", also "Younger Ikavian"). Green in Bosnia is Šćakavian-Jekavian (and mixed) Shtokavian dialect ("East-Bosnian")


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## DenisBiH

WikiSlav, the below quote is what I am talking about, only I seem to have missed by a century (though I think I've seen somewhat later dating for some of those changes elsewhere.)



> Nakon zapadnojužnoslavenskoga razdoblja, većina je glasovnih promjena  zahvatila štokavske hrvatske govore, na temelju kojih je izgrađen  standard, *tijekom 14. stoljeća*. U te se promjene ubrajaju, npr. prijelaz  _čr _> _cr_, (_črven _> _crven_), _jt > ć_ i _jd _> _đ_ (_dojti > doći_, _dojdeš_ > _dođeš_), razvitak "šva" u "jakom" položaju kao _a_ (_sьn > sən _> _san_), promjena _ě _> _ije/je _(_mlěko_ > _mlijeko_) i promjena _l_ > _o_ na kraju sloga (_bil_ > _bio_). Glasovne promjene koje su se razvile nakon 14. stoljeća razmjerno su malobrojne, npr. prijelaz _žr _> _ždr_, "druga jotacija", nestanak glasa *x > _h _u većini govora, itd.


So, if you 'rewind' all of these changes to go back to the beginning of the 14th century, what is specifically left as a difference between Western Shtokavian and Chakavian in that period?

What's the difference that would enable one to claim a pre-14th century text as Chakavian or Shtokavian?

As a side note:



> _jt > ć_ i _jd _> _đ_ (_dojti > doći_, _dojdeš_ > _dođeš_)


I think pre standardization time East Bosnian Jekavian-Šćakavian didn't have these changes, or not completely. My quote in the post linked to above says the same for west Bosnian Ikavian-Šćakavian.


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## Wikislav

Reply to *DenisBH* (see above): 
The main problem before 14th century is that the conserved texts now are rare and almost short for a decisive comparison. This is the main reason because e.g. the recently found Glagolitic graffiti of Slavonija cannot be decided as Šćakavian or Čakavian. In that early medieval times, phonological differences between the starting Čakavian/Šćakavian probably vere minimal and evident only if comparing larger texts. They had almost different *yat*: in Bosnia & Dalmatia often _Ikavian_ or at least mixed half-Ekavian, and westwards predominantly _Ekavian_. There was also the main practical difference in alphabet because  Čakavian was almost Glagolitic, and Šćakavian chiefly in Bosančica or  Latin. 

However, in that early time very probably existed another prior longitudinal difference between the mainland Chakavians + Šćakavians, and even more conservative Chakavians of Istra + islands, then being blurred by subsequent evolution and migrations. These maritime Chakavians were probably the result of another or earlier Slavic migration, and their scarce early texts are relatively closer to supposed Proto-Slavic; some scattered remnants of them are detectable also recently in so-called _'Boduli'_ archaic idioms at Adriatic (that is the specific problem worth of a separate thread). E.g. they partly conserved the phonem _y_, ...etc.


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## Wikislav

Ayazid said:


> ... By the way, I find it very interesting that there seemingly hasn't been any significant dialect leveling in Croatia during the last 50 years with media, schooling and internal migration. At least, it is what has been going on in a greater part of Europe in the last century (including the Czech republic.) I mean, people not necessarily speak the standard language, but they do speak something rather similar to it (in comparison with some old rural dialects) and without huge regional differences in vocabulary or grammar.


There was so far in Croatia only a partial leveling, almost within the intelligible variants of Shtokavian including its _Yekavish, Ikavish_ and _Šćakavian_ variants. Toward other major 'dialects' being really other Slavic languages as is Kaykavian and Chakavian, almost not understandable to standard Shtokavians, any leveling was hardly possible: They simply  die or survive, and their users became bilingual (or trilingual). You probably do not understand the lingual situation within Croatia: it is almost not comparable with other Slavic countries, but chiefly as in Spain or Great Britain: a leveling of Croatian dialects (tried in ex-Yugoslavia) was comparable as a leveling of Spanish-Castillan with Portugese and Catalan. For a better understanding, I give as a typical example the Chakavian Paternoster of Adriatic islanders and please propose you with which Slavic language that may be levelled: 

_Elat*jâ*će ky*ẽš* van*êh* neb*âh*, sen*âj* ela*mÿ* ur*ùd*ba tvo*jâ*, naj_ari*vâ* u*nâ* carm*àd*a tvo*jâ* tar naj*bî* ut*èm*ba tvo*jâ*, *kò*ti va_neb*âh* os*cé* van*êh* tl*âh*.  S*ẽy* no*ãs* pohl*ÿb* sejd*nì* najd*âs* *nà*mi dan*às*ke tar_n*âj* lašk*âs* *nà*mi u*nê* *dâ*rzi *nâ*se, *kò*ti m*ÿ* lašk*àm*o darzn*ÿk*on *nâ*sin, os*cé* naj*nè* pey*ãs* no*ãs* va*nê* uo*cà*ni, leh_n*âj* bukš*âs* no*ãs* ud_se*ÿh* hud*òb*ih. Zi*nê* Štetr*õy*di ud_Sev*ÿš*nega, Išuk*âr*sta tar_Šud*ùh*a, va_seu*nê* vyk*ôj*-vyk*õv*, *âm*en! Štomor*ÿn*a mil*ôj*sti ub*ÿd*na, Sev*ÿš*na zis_teb*ũn* najb*ìš* kropj*èn*a mej*nê* mis*àr*i, naj*bÿ* kropj*ên* f*rú*tt ud_tarb*ùh*i tvo*ẽg* Išuk*âr*st.  Štomor*ÿn*a *Mâ*nda Sev*ÿš*na, naj_pekj*âš* za_no*ãs* va*sÿ*e vyk*ôj*-vyk*õv*, *âm*en _ _(diction: Lu*cé* Dorcić)_.   

This is only a medium complex example, but there occur even far more isolated Slavic archidioms quite out BCS-group, e.g. _*Baegnjunski*_ in nothernmost Croatia (intermediate Polish-Slovene), *Komyzjonski* in Vis isle (inter. Chakavian-Ukrainian), and the most peculiar _Gan-Vey*ãn*_ (Krk isle) being intermediate of Chakavian-ProtoSlavic, very unintelligible to BCS and some other Slavs.


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## DenisBiH

Wikislav, the text you quoted above as a typical example of Chakavian, am I correct in saying that this was supposedly narrated to you (A Ž L) personally by your grandmother? Just for the record.


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## Wikislav

DenisBiH said:


> Wikislav, the text you quoted above as a typical example of Chakavian, am I correct in saying that this was supposedly narrated to you (A Ž L) personally by your grandmother? Just for the record.


No, this earlier text was formerly recorded by my late father, for his Chakavian glossary of Kvarner (posthume published Zagreb 2004, 930 pp.).


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## TriglavNationalPark

Wikislav, I'd like to ask you something which we've already talked about in this forum: Are there any Croatian dialects, presumably Kajkavian ones, that still have the dual (as a distinct grammatical number, equal to the singular and the plural)? If not, when did the dual disappear, based on the available historical evidence?

I'm wondering because even the Prekmurje dialect of Slovenian, which is relatively close to Kajkavian, has the dual, yet I don't remember ever hearing about the dual in any Kajkavian subdialects.

Thanks in advance for your input!


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## Wikislav

TriglavNationalPark said:


> Wikislav, I'd like to ask you something which we've already talked about in this forum: Are there any Croatian dialects, presumably Kajkavian ones, that still have the dual (as a distinct grammatical number, equal to the singular and the plural)? If not, when did the dual disappear, based on the available historical evidence?...


It is a complex question, as some traces of dual forms in actual Croatian dialects exist, but not in Kaykavian as expectable, yet in archaic variants of Chakavian. In entire Kaykavian, and even in its most archaic variant of _Baegnjunski_ in northern Zagorje (Baednjo valley), dual is now lacking. Croatian dual formerly was present in some Glagolitic texts of medieval Chakavians, and it mostly disappeared from there in 15th/16th century. It is said that dual existed also in the medieval texts of Ikavish-Šćakavian of western Bosnia, but I have not detailed informations. After my insights, nowhere else in Croatia (or Bosnia) any similar duals survived. But by the recent field insights, one detected now the unique Croatian sites of a true dual persisting in few elders speaking 2 very archaic variants of Chakavian at Kvarner Gulf: 

1. _K*y*rska be*śe*da_, the local archidiom in some hamlets _(Rupe, Ant*óv*o and Ba*śú*nje)_ in southern slopes of Mount Bitoraj at Vinodol valley, between Fužine and Crikvenica: They now say alike in Slovene (linked pronouncing + bolded stress): e.g. dvi_źe*ny*, tri_źe*ny*, ćet*y*re źe*ny* (2, 3, 4 womans); dvi_ru*ky*, tri_ru*ky*, ćet*ir*e ru*ky* (2, 3, 4 hands); dvi_no*gy*, tri_no*gy*, ćet*ir*e no*gy* (2, 3, 4 legs), ...etc. 

2. _Gan-Vey*ãn*_, another local archidiom in Krk island between Vrbnik and Baška, chiefly in hamlets Batom*ál*, Šur*áj*e, and Yurandv*ôr*. Their exotic duals diverging from Slavs, are e.g. dvy_śarc*éj*, try_śarc*éj*, cet*yr* śarc*éj* (2, 3, 4 hearts); dvy_rib*ôj*, try_rib*ôj*, cet*yr* rib*ôj* (2, 3, 4 fishes); dvy_źab*yn*aj, try-źab*yn*aj, cet*yr* źab*yn*aj (2, 3, 4 frogs); dv*oj*di źmin*ôj*, tr*oj*di źmin*ôj*, cet*yr*di źmin*ôj* (2, 3, 4 drakes), ...etc.


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## Wikislav

Addendum to my precedent post on *duals* in Croatia:  Except the above indicated duals in _K*y*rska be*śe*da_ at Vinodol valley, and _Gan-Vey*ãn*_ in Krk isle, duals in Croatia were present (and still are) also in _Ikavish-Kaykavians_. This early Ikavish variant of Kaykavian, transitional between Chakavian and Kaykavian, was the first known one among the conserved Kaykavian texts, long before the typical widespread Ekavish-Kaykavians appearing since 17th century. These early Ikavish-Kaykavian texts were printed in 16th/17th century, initially as Protestantic literature from Urach sent in Croatia, and then printed in Ozalj town by Frangipani princes as literary and administrative texts. In both ones sporadically were included (not allways) also some dual forms. 

Nowadays, Ikavish-Kaykavian is also spoken by _4%_ Croats. Its users in villages at Zaprešić, Ozalj, Fužine and elsewhere almost have no traces of dual. However, dual forms are also now conserved in the most archaic Ikavish-Kaykavians of northern Istria, e.g. in Buzet valley at upper Raša river, especially by the elders of villages Mlun, Nugla, etc. They frequently say e.g.: 2, 3, 4 že*ní* - also as in Slovene dual. Some orthodox Croatian linguists (BCS-Vukovians) held in general Croatian duals being a newer import from the adjacent Slovene, and also this entire idiom of Buzet may be the recent hybrid of a former Chakavian with Slovene. Others disagree considering these duals to be original, because Buzet idiom is generally the most archaic in all other aspects among Ikavish-Kaykavians, and the most similar to related early texts from Protestants and Frangipani. 
To conclude, the archaic dual forms comparable to Slovene, till now are spoken by rural elders in 3 areas of Croatia: 1. *Buzet* valley, 2. *Vinodol* valley, and 3. *Krk* island (east side).


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## TriglavNationalPark

Thank you so much for your detailed response, Wikislav!



Wikislav said:


> They frequently say e.g.: 2, 3, 4 že*ní* - also as in Slovene dual.


 
However, this use seems to be different from Slovenian, since the Slovenian dual only applies to the number two (*dve ženi sta šli*), never two the numbers three or four, where the plural is used instead (*tri žene so šle*).

Also, does the dual still have its separate case system in these dialects?


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## Wikislav

_Slovene vs. Croatian (dialect) *duals*:_ Yes, this 'dual' at Vinodol and Buzet valleys is chiefly by its form reminding of Slovene dual (restricted to 2 only), - but its wider Croatian use at 2, 3, and 4 ones (and partly also at _pair_ & _few_ ones) makes them more comparable with the _Russian_ duals recently called also _paucal_. Moreover, the verbs connected with this 'Croatian dual' (or paucal) anywhere have not a special 'dualistic' form, because in all Croatian idioms there exist singular and plural conjugation only (no any dual conjugation as I know). 

Concerning a _'dualistic declension'_ of these relict Croatian duals, I do not know its cases in Buzet and Vinodol valleys where this declension of dual probably yet disappeared. But this unique dualistic declension till now is well known only in the most conservative Croatian archidiom of _Gan-Vey*ãn*_ in east Krk isle, where its all cases are specific and coserved in elders' use, e.g.: 

Hearts *2, 3, 4*: 1.& 4. _ś__arc*êj*, _2.& 6._ ś__arc*êh*, _3. _ś__arc*ên*, _7. _ś__arc*èm*i_.
Drakes *2, 3, 4*: 1.&4._ ź__myn*ôj,* _2.& 6. _ź__myn*ôv*, _3._ ź__myn*ôn*, _7._ ź__myn*òm*i._ 
Fishes *2, 3, 4*: 1.& 4_. rib*ôj*, _2.& 6._ ryb*âh*, _3._ ryb*ân*, _7._ ry*bà*mi. 
_Paucal use: _d*v*__*ò*__jdi rib__*ô*__*j*_ (pair of fishes), _sedu__*è*__ rib__*ô*__*j*_ (both fishes), _keter*k*__*è*__ rib__*ô*__*j*_ (few fishes), ...etc.


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## Istriano

Mod note: The following discussion has been move here from THIS thread.



Aleksey Groz said:


> The simple example is with Slovene. BCS and Slovene have similar grammar (with exception of dual), but vocabulary is quit different.


It's not, Slovenian and C vocabulary are almost the same (well, I'm talking for Čakavian and Kajkavian which always seem neglected when BCS acronym is used. )

Unlike Torlakian, these two dialects have old literary tradition and there are feelings of local proud linked to them. 
For example, here in Istria, I've never really heard any Štokavian outside Pula, people use only Čakavian and Italian.


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## Aleksey Groz

Istriano said:


> It's not, Slovenian and C vocabulary are almost the same (well, I'm talking for Čakavian and Kajkavian which always seem neglected when BCS acronym is used. )
> 
> Unlike Torlakian, these two dialects have old literary tradition and there are feelings of local proud linked to them.
> For example, here in Istria, I've never really heard any Štokavian outside Pula, people use only Čakavian and Italian.



That's right, but I was talking about BCS and it's standard dialects 
In Croatian, Shtokavian is the only standard and official dialect. In the same way, we could say that Serbian (if we are considering Torlakian) is very familiar with Bulgarian and Macedonian. But, in fact it's not, because it's just a non-standard dialect


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## Istriano

Aleksey Groz said:


> and it's standard dialects
> In Croatian, Shtokavian is the only standard and official dialect.




But it's not the prestigious dialect.
The prestigious dialect is Zagreb vernacular (used in movies, sitcoms, soap operas).

The official dialect is used only on tv news (but with many prosodic elements from Zagreb), and in theater (in Glembajevi ).

When people from Split or Dubrovnik move to Zagreb, they soon start to talk like Zagrebians,
because Zagrebian dialect is prestigious.

This for example does not happen in the case of New York City, people moving to NYC don't end up speaking like NewYorkers,
because NYC accent is not prestigious. (But people moving to L.A. do end up speaking like Angelinos).

Kak je, tak je. Nikaj se tu ne more.
Se razme.


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## DenisBiH

Istriano said:


> But it's not the prestigious dialect.
> The prestigious dialect is Zagreb vernacular (used in movies, sitcoms, soap operas).




This may be true regarding pronunciation, but not much else. The prestigious dialect is still Shtokavian, only with non-Neoshtokavian pronunciation. If true historical Zagreb vernacular were indeed the prestigious dialect, we'd be hearing Kajkavian on HRT.


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## Istriano

But, _budem išao_ for_ ići ću _is really Kajkavian.


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## Wikislav

DenisBiH said:


> This may be true regarding pronunciation, but not much else. The prestigious dialect is still Shtokavian, only with non-Neoshtokavian pronunciation. If true historical Zagreb vernacular were indeed the prestigious dialect, we'd be hearing Kajkavian on HRT.


This is a wishful thinking far from the field reality, as seen from outside Croatia in 20th century. I participated (as an of more coauthors) in some subsequent inquiries for preparing a voluminous dictionary of Zagreb's autochthons to be published in 2012 (above 1000 pages/20,000+ words), and the latest situation is now so: about 410,000 Zagreb citizens or 3/5 ones yet speak Kaykavian at least privately in family, and they predominate in center and northwest suburbs; all satellite towns (Zaprešič, Sesvete, Velka Gorica, etc.) each with 50,-90,000 inhabitants are almost Kaykavian. An immigrating Shtokavian minority here predominates chiefly in new suburbs created from 20th century as eastern Dubrava and southern Novi Zagreb, and in satellite Sisek. One may take in consideration that the subentire north-western Croatia around Zagreb from Kupa to Mura rivers is Kaykavian, and so 2/3 recent immigrants to Zagreb are Kaykavians. 

Its relative prestigiousness is evident from the next: people in the streets, busses and tramways speak more half-Kaykavian than Shtokavian; there are in Zagreb 3 major broadcast stations audible in eastern Slovenia and northwest Bosnia: Radio-Zagreb is mostly Shtokavian, Radio-Sljeme partly Kaykavian, and Radio-KAJ completely. TV-Zagreb speaks mostly Shtokavian but at electing time it becomes Kaykavian: because Kaykavians are majoritary electors there. Zagreb's major is 4 times iteratively a Shtokavian of Hercegovina speaking periodically half-Kaykavian: but in elections time he is mostly 'Kaykavian' (otherwise he would not be elected). The _1,450.000_ Kaykavians dwelling around Zagreb now have dozen major dictionaries + a new grammar; with actual trends it is rather probable that in the near future (a decade?) Croatia will have 2 parallel standards as Norway:  Bokmal and Nynorsk (i.e. Shtokavian + Kaykavian). 


			
				Istriano said:
			
		

> : But, _budem išao_ for_ ići ću _is really Kajkavian.


 This is partly a new hybrid half-Kaykavian called _"Što*kaj*ski"_, the true Kaykavian is: _Bum išel_. Nonstandard 'budem išao' speak also _Šćakavian_ villagers of Livno and Duvno valleys (southwest Bosnia): this is not restricted to Kaykavians only.


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## Orlin

Istriano said:


> But, _budem išao_ for_ ići ću _is really Kajkavian.


Ja se ne slažem s tobom: iako izgleda otprilike kao kajkavski/slovenački futur (mislim da kajk./slov. imaju samo jedan tip oblik_a _za futur)_, budem išao _je oblik futur II (razlikuje se po značenju od futura I _ići ću_) u svim standardima BCS. Možda je kajkavizam upotreba futura II umesto futura I.


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## DenisBiH

[...]

As for the rest of your post, you have basically confirmed what I said. Croatian standard, the Shtokavian one, is the prestige dialect used in most of the literature and public media; albeit with non-Neoshtokavian pronunciation.

Now, I'm thrilled to find out that there are a number of local media around Zagreb and in Zagorje that use their native Kajkavian dialect, but that doesn't make it the prestigious dialect, or else they'd be using it everywhere and on every occasion, including on formal occasions. If you disagree, please do tell me when to tune in to HRT, Nova or RTL Plus to hear the wealth of Kajkavian spoken there.

As for your and Istriano's comments about Bandić and _budem išao_, while introducing a few Kajkavian words and grammar rules in everyday (mostly informal, I presume) speech in Zagreb is interesting, Kajkavian is a bit more than using 'kaj', 'nemrem' or budem/bum used occasionally instead of future I.


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## Orlin

DenisBiH said:


> Now, I'm thrilled to find out that there are a number of local media around Zagreb and in Zagorje that use their native Kajkavian dialect, but that doesn't make it the prestigious dialect, or else they'd be using it everywhere and in every occasion in Croatia, including on formal occasions.
> 
> As for your and Istriano's comments about Bandić and _budem išao_, while introducing a few Kajkavian words and grammar rules in everyday speech in Zagreb is interesting, Kajkavian is a bit more than using 'kaj', 'nemrem' or budem/bum used occasionally instead of future I, especially if the rest is mainly Shtokavian.


Koliko ja znam, većina Zagrepčana govori nešto poput "pidžiniziranog kajkavskog", tj. izvorni kajkavski koji je bio pod takim jakim uticajem oficijalnog štokavskog standarda tako da se on tako jako priblizio štokavštini (i čak je možda standardni hrvatski s ponekom kajkavskom rečju ili pravilom, pidžin je jer nije nečiji maternji jezik nego nešto neprirodno formirano).


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## DenisBiH

Orlin said:


> Koliko ja znam, većina Zagrepčana govori nešto poput "pidžiniziranog kajkavskog", tj. izvorni kajkavski koji je bio pod takim jakim uticajem oficijalnog štokavskog standarda tako da se on tako jako priblizio štokavštini (i čak je možda standardni hrvatski s ponekom kajkavskom rečju ili pravilom, pidžin je jer nije nečiji maternji jezik nego nešto neprirodno formirano).



Nisam siguran da je pidžin pravilna klasifikacija, jer bi pidžin trebao pokazivati simplifikaciju, čega nemamo u ovom slučaju. A ne slažem se ni sa tim da je nešto neprirodno u pitanju, osim ako ne smatramo uvođenje jednog dijalekta preko drugog putem škole i medija neprirodnim. Kako sam nekad pominjao, moja mama je išla u srednju u Zagrebu u 60tim prošlog stoljeća, i dok nije nikako mogla imati više od 4 (vrlodobar) iz hrvatskog, kaže da su kolegice iz mjesta oko Zagreba kojim je maternji dijalekt bio kajkavski prolazile još gore.


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## itreius

Mislim da sam i ja koristio taj naziv "pidžin" ovdje na WR forumu, te je to bio tek pokušaj davanja nekakvog nazivlja govoru koji se pronalazi u Zagrebu (moguće je da sam ga pročitao negdje kod Kapovića, no nisam siguran). Očito, naziv nije savršen no mislim da bolje ocrtava situaciju nego što bi to bio slučaj da sve stanovnike Zagreba koji koriste upitnu riječ _kaj_ svrstamo među kajkavce. Dojma sam da se taj govor iz generacije u generaciju drastično mijenja pod utjecajem štokavskog kao standarda u obrazovnom sustavu, što bi donekle bilo obuhvaćeno sa nazivom pidžin (naravno, i dalje stoji da se ne radi o pravilnoj klasifikaciji). Osobno mi se one gore navedene brojke čine kao pretjerivanja, ili eventualno ako se ne radi o pretjerivanjima, onda pak ukazuju na to da ljudi ne koriste "pravi" kajkavski u svakodnevnome životu u javnim situacijama niti približno puno koliko neki ovdje tvrde (što bi pak reklo da kajkavski _nemože_ biti prestižni dijalekt jer ga ljudi onda svjesno ne govore).


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## DenisBiH

Ne mogu biti siguran, ali možda je jedan od problema što je ex-Yu dijalektologija bila fokusirana na dijalekte kakvi su nekad bili prije 100 i više godina i njihove osobine i rasprostranjenost. Činjenica je da su se mnoge stvari promijenile od tada, pogotovo u urbanim sredinama sa izraženim migracijama. Slične pojave, možda manje izražene ali slične, se mogu susresti i po BiH, uključujući i u Sarajevu. Sarajevo je recimo nekad bilo u južnoj podgrupi istočnobosanskih dijalekata, šćakavsko-jekavskih (i miješanih). Ali današnji sarajevski govori, dok možda pokazuju neke supstratske osobine naslijeđene iz tog perioda, i možda čak i ostatke tih govora (postojala je recimo ekavska zona na Bjelavama, dijelu Sarajeva; zabilježena i u 80-tim godinama 20. stoljeća), današnji govor je nešto drugo. Možda bi neko jednostavno trebao zapeti i proučavati govore kakvi su sad, uključujući ove urbane 'pidžine'. Ili možda to neko već i radi?


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## Orlin

Mislim da se "urbani pidžini" formiraju na teritoriji svih velikih gradova ako je imalo mnogo migracije iz drugih delova države ili čak iz drugih država: "izvorni" govor gradskog područja brzo se gubi u "moru migranata" i zbog uticaja standardnog jezika, koji se smatra prestižnijim i ponekad se čak svesno "nameće" preko obrazovanja, medija i drugih institucija. Ovaj proces protiče brže kad je dijalektalna osnova respektivnog standardnog jezika daleko od dijalekta grada u pitanju: možda je off topic baš ovde ali pominjali smo iste stvari u raspravi o govoru Sofije prošle jeseni: rekli smo da je situacija u Sofiji i Zagrebu izuzetno slična.


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## DenisBiH

Orlin said:


> Mislim da se "urbani pidžini" formiraju na teritoriji svih velikih gradova ako je imalo mnogo migracije iz drugih delova države ili čak iz drugih država: "izvorni" govor gradskog područja brzo se gubi u "moru migranata" i zbog uticaja standardnog jezika, koji se smatra prestižnijim i ponekad se čak svesno "nameće" preko obrazovanja, medija i drugih institucija. Ovaj proces protiče brže kad je dijalektalna osnova respektivnog standardnog jezika daleko od dijalekta grada u pitanju: možda je off topic baš ovde ali pominjali smo iste stvari u raspravi o govoru Sofije prošle jeseni: rekli smo da je situacija u Sofiji i Zagrebu izuzetno slična.




Evo tri interesantna citata o sarajevskoj situaciji odavde:



> Naročitu pažnju sarajevskom govoru Brozović posvećuje u  monografiji o govorima u dolini rijeke Fojnice te u izvještaju o  dijalektološkim istraživanjima u srednjoj Bosni. Nastoji rasvijetliti  neke sumnjive pojedinosti iz Šurminove rasprave, koja zahtijeva i dopune  i ispravke. Spominje i osobine *starinačkog muslimanskoga govora u Sarajevu* koje se ne mogu vidjeti iz Šurminova rada, *kao što je ekavsko-jekavski refleks jata*.  Sarajevski govor ukratko je predstavljen i u Brozovićevoj sintezi o  ijekavskošćakavskom dijalektu: tu je izdvojen kao poseban govor unutar  južnoga poddijalekta (govori južno od Krivaje i zapadno od Bosne) i  navedene su osobine kojima se on karakterizira unutar  ijekavskošćakavskog dijalekta i približava jugoistočnom poddijalektu  istočnohercegovačkog dijalekta.


Takav govor još je postojao u 1980-ima:


> O ekavsko-jekavskom govoru sarajevskog naselja Bjelave imamo sačuvane  podatke iz 1983. i 1984. god. u jednome Upitniku za ispitivanje  bosanskohercegovačkih govora.


Ali onda...


> 10. Iz predočene građe vidi se da je ovaj govor osoben u pogledu  refleksa staroga vokala jata. Potkraj XX stoljeća posvjedočen je ekavski  refleks jata u dugim slogovima kao sistemska crta govora Bjelava.  Međutim, u ovom starom sarajevskom naselju već u to vrijeme prevagu ima  ijekavski refleks da bi četvrt stoljeća kasnije *potpuno iščeznula* jedna bosanska ekavskojekavska oaza.



Inače, gore pomenuti Brozović je vjerujem pokojni Dalibor Brozović, jedan od najpoznatijih hrvatskih lingvista; rodom Sarajlija čini se.


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## Istriano

Orlin said:


> Koliko ja znam, većina Zagrepčana govori nešto poput "pidžiniziranog kajkavskog", tj. izvorni kajkavski koji je bio pod takim jakim uticajem oficijalnog štokavskog standarda tako da se on tako jako priblizio štokavštini (i čak je možda standardni hrvatski s ponekom kajkavskom rečju ili pravilom, pidžin je jer nije nečiji maternji jezik nego nešto neprirodno formirano).




Most of people in Zagreb speak in a mesolect, which is close to Tussentaal in Belgian Dutch. Mesolect and pidgin are not the same thing.
Mesolects are a compromise between local dialects (basilects) and the standard language (acrolect) which is ''alien'' to most people.

Basilectal forms are rare in urban parts of Northern and Western Croatia, but štokavian acrolect is not really seen as a model to imitate.  Even nonŠtokavian politicians (I. Jakovic, V. Pusic) tend to use this mesolect in the Croatian parliament.

And I'm not sure how can accents of Dalmatia be classified as ''standard'', they are ikavian and have a very unique vocabulary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish#Tussentaal


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## Wikislav

DenisBiH said:


> Now, I'm thrilled to find out that there are a number of local media around Zagreb and in Zagorje that use their native Kajkavian dialect, but that doesn't make it the prestigious dialect, or else they'd be using it everywhere and on every occasion, including on formal occasions. If you disagree, please do tell me when to tune in to HRT, Nova or RTL Plus to hear the wealth of Kajkavian spoken there. As for your and Istriano's comments ...


It is evidently inutile to offer any real data, if you yet have strong Shtokavian iron-prejudices on 'unexisting' Kaykavians, but let know that for others benevolent ones: A near-_perpetual TV-program in Kaykavian_ one may see chiefly on TV-Varaždin, an official satellite division of Croatian state TV with its special emitting TV-tower on Mount Vranilec; a similar perpetual TV-program in Chakavian you can see in the Urban television of Split city. There yet exist some Kaykavian teaching schools chiefly in Zagorje, and even the special Faculty of _Kaykavian studies_ in Čakovec town as a satellite of Zagreb University (all are "unexisting and impossible" for headstrong Shtokavians). 

There exists now also a powerful cultural lodge (MZS) of some Kaykavian  financial magnates for promoting and revival of Kaykavian culture &  language with a strong European support. On the other side appeared also  the Kaykavian BBB-guerilla (Bad Blue Boys) in Zagreb streets and  elsewhere, periodically attacking Shtokavian-speaking people. It is interesting that even Serbians are in reality almost neutral toward Kaykavians, but some Bosnians + mainland Dalmatians (not islanders) are filled by hateful speaking & deep aversion against Kaykavians. There is also their misplaced Shtokavian nickname as "purgeri" (= ignorance of German + Kaykavian): it is from German _Burger_ meaning citizen (not rural Kaykavian). 

Besides the predominating half-Kaykavians or "Što*kaj*ski", in the old city of Zagreb now persisted 5,000-7,000 archaic _*Agrámeri* _or _"laškovuličánski"_ speaking an urban Kaykavian on 19th century level, studied by the American slavist T.F. Magner from 1966 (neglected by our "mainstream" linguists). Simultaneously, the actual southwest suburb Trešnjevka in 19th cent. was the _*Č*r*i*šnje*f*ka_ village speaking now extinct Ikavish-Kaykavian; its center was the _Plac po*t* *Č*r*i*šnju_ = now Trešnjevački square. There exists also the detailed monograph by Sabljak 2001 on Zagreb's street & school slang, and dozen other comparable studies on Zagreb's speech; similar ones exist also for Rijeka city speech, but all neglected & bypassed here by the iron-prejudiced Shtokavians.


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## el_tigre

Orlin said:


> Koliko ja znam, većina Zagrepčana govori nešto poput "pidžiniziranog kajkavskog", tj. izvorni kajkavski koji je bio pod takim jakim uticajem oficijalnog štokavskog standarda tako da se on tako jako priblizio štokavštini (i čak je možda standardni hrvatski s ponekom kajkavskom rečju ili pravilom, pidžin je jer nije nečiji maternji jezik nego nešto neprirodno formirano).



Tako otprilike.


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## el_tigre

DenisBiH said:


> [...]
> 
> As for the rest of your post, you have basically confirmed what I said. Croatian standard, the Shtokavian one, is the prestige dialect used in most of the literature and public media; albeit with non-Neoshtokavian pronunciation.




Related to modern Zagreb vernacular see opinion from South. 
http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Spl...Type/ArticleView/articleId/97889/Default.aspx

The point is that Zagreb vernacular is perceived very bad in Dalmatia because most Dalmatians are consider it to be imposing instead of standard.


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