# Norwegian: Is "y" like a French "u"?



## Berethor023

God morgen/kveld.

I'd like to know if the Norwegian "y" is equal (or similar) to the French "u", or if it's just like a regular (albeit stronger) "i". 
I tend to think about the French "u" as a mix between the Norwegian "u" and "i", and when I focus on each sound separately, I can hear them in French. But I find it to be really difficult to identify a Norwegian "u" sound in your "y" (hence my question).

Mange takk in advance.


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## andreasol

Hi there

The pronounciation of the Norwegian "y" is very similar to the French "u". I believe that a difference between them is in the lenght of the pronounciation; the Norwegian "y" is longer whilst the French "u" is shorter.

I'm don't speak much French, så please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Frenchlover1

The French _u_ is kind of in the middle of the Norwegian_ Y_ and the English_ oo_/Norwegian_ U_.

Shape your moth as if you're saying the English _oo_ while you pronounce an English _e_/French _i_, and you'll get the Norwegian _y_

Here you can listen to the Norwegian alphabet

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/norwegian.htm


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## Outsider

If this page is correct, then the Norwegian _y_ is like a French _u_ when long [y:], and a slightly different but similar sound when it's short, [ʏ].

I dare say the qualitative difference should not be important in the early stages of learning the language. You can start by using the French _u_, and later refine your pronunciation by listening carefully to the pronunciation of native speakers.


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## Dan2

Let me say first of all that one's native language strongly influences how one hears things.  So I don't think speakers of Norwegian, English, Portuguese, and French will ever agree on exactly where the various vowels stand with respect to each other.

I'm a native speaker of English and know French quite well.  To me, Norwegian 'y' is a vowel that doesn't exist in either English or French.  I hear Norwegian (long) 'y' as partway _between_ /i/ and the French 'u'. (By /i/ I mean the vowel of Eng "knee", Norw "ni", French "nid".)

Frenchlover1's link to the Norwegian alphabet was very useful.  From that link I edited out the 'i' and the 'y'.  Then I added to that a native-French 'u'.  So the resulting file is Norw i, Norw y, French u.  
<Moderator edited content>
I hear three distinct vowels.  (The French vowel is shorter, but I think it also has a different vowel sound.)  I'd be interested to see what speakers of other languages think.


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## kirsitn

The French u and German ü are both somewhere in between Norwegian u and y, but closer to u than to y according to the French people that I've discussed it with. (Or in other words, Norwegian y is closer to /i/ than the French u.)


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## Pteppic

I think one of the key points about the Norwegian y is that it's pronounced with squared lips, not rounded. A year or so ago, there was a show on Norwegian television about immigrants learning Norwegian, and one of the scenes showed the students practising the y pronunciation by balancing a pencil on their upper lip.


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## Ben Jamin

Frenchlover1 said:


> The French _u_ is kind of in the middle of the Norwegian_ Y_ and the English_ oo_/Norwegian_ U_.
> 
> Shape your moth as if you're saying the English _oo_ while you pronounce an English _e_/French _i_, and you'll get the Norwegian _y_
> 
> Here you can listen to the Norwegian alphabet
> 
> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/norwegian.htm


How come you say that Norwegian U is like English OO? They are quite different, if pronounced by natives. Norwegian U is pronounced with a quite different opening between the tongue and the palate than OO. The Norwegian Y and French U are in fact both rounded frontal high vowels, but not articulated in the same place in the front-back dimension, so they sound different.


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## Berethor023

I think I get it. The "y" would be in the middle of Nor "i" and French "u", kinda like a really strong, emphatic Nor "i", then?

Also, since people brought it up, I think I can actually hear a small diference between the English "oo" and the Norwegian "u". I think the English "oo" resembles more the Norwegian short-"o" (or is it long?), while the Norwegian "u" would be more strong, maybe with a slightly more rounded mouth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I hear in Frenchlover1's link.


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## j0nas

What is 'strong' supposed to mean? Not a good word to describe vowels.
_____



Dan2 said:


> To me, Norwegian 'y' is a vowel that doesn't exist in either English or French.  I hear Norwegian (long) 'y' as partway _between_ /i/ and the French 'u'. (By /i/ I mean the vowel of Eng "knee", Norw "ni", French "nid".)
> .



I agree with this. 
And what Ptettic says is also true. The main difference between the norwegian 'y' and the french 'u' is how the lips are formed.


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## Ben Jamin

j0nas said:


> What is 'strong' supposed to mean? Not a good word to describe vowels.
> _____
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this.
> And what Ptettic says is also true. The main difference between the norwegian 'y' and the french 'u' is how the lips are formed.


 Do not forget the different position of the tongue.


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## DeadMule

kirsitn said:


> The French u and German ü are both somewhere in between Norwegian u and y, but closer to u than to y according to the French people that I've discussed it with. (Or in other words, Norwegian y is closer to /i/ than the French u.)



Yes, agree! Although in my opinion, German ü is definitely closer to Norwegian y than French u. My wife is a French linguist, who has learned Norwegian quite well, she has been very interested in this difference. She thinks the  Norwegian y and French i are easily confused in the beginning, it takes a while to get the difference (which is well described in the post about lips). French u is not that close to Norwegian y, I think.


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## DeadMule

Pteppic said:


> I think one of the key points about the Norwegian y is that it's pronounced with squared lips, not rounded. A year or so ago, there was a show on Norwegian television about immigrants learning Norwegian, and one of the scenes showed the students practising the y pronunciation by balancing a pencil on their upper lip.



That's it! I'm Norwegian, and this is a good explanation I think. Y = squared lips (pencil on upper lip), U = rounded lips (almost like when you whistle). And I = mouth like a big smile! I.e. French i and Norwegian i is very close.


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## Ben Jamin

DeadMule said:


> The French u and German ü are both somewhere in between Norwegian u and y, but closer to u than to y according to the French people that I've discussed it with. (Or in other words, Norwegian y is closer to /i/ than the French u.)
> Yes, agree!


 
Har du noen gang hørt en Tysker uttale ordet "Lys" på norsk?
I en slik femføring ligner y-en mest på en "u", med et ufrivillig komisk utfall.


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## DeadMule

Ben Jamin said:


> Har du noen gang hørt en Tysker uttale ordet "Lys" på norsk?
> I en slik femføring ligner y-en mest på en "u", med et ufrivillig komisk utfall.



Ja, det har du rett i, har hørt det selv! Men hvis du sier til tyskeren at han skal uttale y som tysk ü, går det nok bedre. Så enig med deg, men jeg snakker om KORREKT uttale av bokstavene, ikke hvordan utlendinger prøver å uttale de...

EDIT: Kanskje jeg nettopp motsa meg selv? Kanskje det er jeg som uttaler tysk ü feil? Den skal kanskje ikke uttales mer mot norsk y enn u... Mente alltid at tysk ü var nesten norsk y, men kanskje ikke. Jeg bøyer hvis noen med bedre tyskuttale enn meg sier noe annet...


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## j0nas

Jeg sier noe annet.  Tysk ü ligner mye mer på norsk u enn norsk y. 

Men det er uansett ikke så veldig lurt å definere vokaler på andre språk på den måten. Det beste er å høre på tyskere si ü, evt. nordmenn si y noen tusen ganger og så prøve å herme etter dem.


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## Ben Jamin

j0nas said:


> Jeg sier noe annet.  Tysk ü ligner mye mer på norsk u enn norsk y.


 Jeg er enig med deg. Forskjellen er imidlertid at norsk u er mindre rundet, og tungen ligger litt lavere, men ü og u ligner mye mer på hverandre enn y og ü.


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## Istriano

It seems to me  that the Norwegian short Y and the Norwegian long Y don't sound quite the same.
The long Y is halfway between the English vowels in _sea_t and s_i_t (closer to _seat_) but pronounced with the protruded rounding of lips (not with the compressed rounding).
The short Y is so short, many times I can't hear the rounding at all (I hear it as a _sit _vowel when isolated, and as a _seat _vowel in diphthongs, like _øy_).

(In many dialects the short y is lowered to  _ø  _[ɜ]: *nytter *(2_nøttæ _in Helgeland.))


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