# مختلف البلدان، البلدان المختلفة



## alchimist

Hi, can somebody with good knowledge of Arabic grammar explain me the following rule (mind the tashkeel):

مختلفُ البللدانِ(mukhtalifu al buldani)

البللدانُ المختلِفةُ (al buldanu al mukhtalifatu)

what is the difference between the two? What grammer rule is the first one?


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## elroy

مختلَف البلدان - muxtal*a*fu ’l-buldān(i)
(Note that there is only one ل in البلدان.)
This is a construct state, with the second noun in the genitive: مختلف is the مضاف and البلدان is the مضاف إليه.

البلدان المختلفة - al-buldānu ’l-muxtalifa(tu)
Here we have a noun+adjective construction: البلدان is a noun and المختلفة is an adjective.  The former is the منعوت and the latter is the نعت.


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## alchimist

elroy said:


> مختلَف البلدان - muxtal*a*fu ’l-buldān(i)
> (Note that there is only one ل in البلدان.)
> This is a construct state, with the second noun in the genitive: مختلف is the مضاف and البلدان is a مضاف إليه.
> 
> البلدان المختلفة - al-buldānu ’l-muxtalifa(tu)
> Here we have a noun+adjective construction: البلدان is a noun and المختلفة is an adjective.  The former is the منعوت and the latter is the نعت.



Thank you very much. So are these two expressions interchangeable in any case? (btw I am not used to grammar expressions in Arabic)


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## analeeh

They're more or less interchangeable in isolation. مختلف is an adjective means 'different' in all its different senses, while مختلَف is more like 'various'. But both are often translatable as 'various' depending on context.


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## elroy

They’re not interchangeable for me.

مختلَف البلدان: “all sorts of” countries, a broad range of countries 
سافر إلى آسيا وزار مختلَف البلدان

البلدان المختلفة: the different countries (reference to a specific group of countries) 
حدّثنا عن البلدان المختلفة التي زارها


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## Qureshpor

elroy said:


> They’re not interchangeable for me.
> 
> مختلَف البلدان: “all sorts of” countries, a broad range of countries
> سافر إلى آسيا وزار مختلَف البلدان
> 
> البلدان المختلفة: the different countries (reference to a specific group of countries)
> حدّثنا عن البلدان المختلفة التي زارها


I would say, the word is "muxtalif" and not "muxtalaf" in the above examples.
muxtalaf fiihi/3alaihi (controvercial/disputed)


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## elroy

As I said, it’s “muxtal*a*f” in the first case and “muxtal*i*fa” in the second.


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## Qureshpor

elroy said:


> As I said, it’s “muxtal*a*f” in the first case and “muxtal*i*fa” in the second.


I am suggesting "muxtalif" in the first and "muxtalifah" in the second.


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## elroy

And I’m saying you’re wrong.


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## Qureshpor

elroy said:


> And I’m saying you’re wrong.


Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. 

ِمختلِفُ البلدان  muxtalifu_lbaladaani

ُالبلدانُ المختلِفة al-baladaanu_lmuxtalifatu

If you still disagree, we'll wait for input from other friends.


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## elroy

Nope, I’m not misunderstanding you. 

It’s “muxtal*a*f” in the first case, and it’s also “b*ul*dān.”

مُخْتَلَفُ ٱلْبُلْدَانِ

اَلْبُلْدَانُ ٱلْمُخْتَلِفَةُ


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## Qureshpor

elroy said:


> Nope, I’m not misunderstanding you.
> 
> It’s “muxtal*a*f” in the first case, and it’s also “b*ul*dān.”
> 
> مُخْتَلَفُ ٱلْبُلْدَانِ
> 
> اَلْبُلْدَانُ ٱلْمُخْتَلِفَةُ


OK, fine we'll leave it at this. It is my mistake to write "baladaan". Thank you for pointing this out. However. I will still insist that as a stand alone example the first one should be "muxtalif_ulbuldaani".


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## elroy

Qureshpor said:


> "muxtalif_ulbuldaani"


 I don’t know why you think it should be this, but this is meaningless in Arabic and makes no sense.


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## lukebeadgcf

Reading this thread, I agreed with Qureshpor, so I looked for a source supporting this view. This usage does not seem to be well described in most Arabic dictionaries. Wehr just has:






Lane only has:





Similarly, I could not find anything in المنجد or تاج العروس or anywhere else. But I did find this in المنجد في اللغة العربية المعاصرة:





I think this last example, particularly the expression مختلَف ساعات النهار, supports Elroy's view and at the very least provides an attestation of this vocalisation.

I would have thought, like Qureshpor, that many people would use مختلِف in this situation, so it was interesting to find this contradicting lexical information!


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## Sun-Shine

I agree with Elroy.
It's:


elroy said:


> “muxtal*a*f” in the first case, and it’s also “b*ul*dān.”
> 
> مُخْتَلَفُ ٱلْبُلْدَانِ
> 
> اَلْبُلْدَانُ ٱلْمُخْتَلِفَةُ


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## alchimist

analeeh said:


> They're more or less interchangeable in isolation. مختلف is an adjective means 'different' in all its different senses, while مختلَف is more like 'various'. But both are often translatable as 'various' depending on context.


 so mukhtalaf is passive and mukhtalif is activ I guess


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## Sun-Shine

Yes, mukhtalaf is the passive participle and mukhtalif is the active.


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## lukebeadgcf

Sun-Shine said:


> Yes, mukhtalaf is the passive participle and mukhtalif is the active.



I'm not sure I would characterize مختلَف used this way as a passive participle.

The verb اختلف is intransitive and doesn't take a direct object. As a consequence, it is not meaningful to form a passive participle from the verb اختلف meaning "to be different"; the meaning of "different" is conveyed by the active participle مختلِف. However, like many intransitive verbs of this measure, a passive participle of اختلف can be formed when the verb uses a preposition to exercise some meaning on another noun. For, example, in the case of اختلف إلى "to frequent," you could form the passive participle to talk about a "frequented place":

مكان مختلَف إليه.

Similarly, as indicated in the Wehr entry cited in my previous post, you can form the passive participle from اختلف على "to disagree about" to talk about "contested issues":

قضايا مختلَف عليها

But the مختلَف in مختلَف البلدان or مختلَف ساعات النهار doesn't have a preposition referring back to a noun, so it seems to me that, barring some convoluted ellipsis, this word is better understood as something else.

Wright identifies at least two other types of words that are identical in form to the passive participle when derived from verbs like اختلف, which is of the verbal pattern افتعل or measure VIII: أسماء المكان والزمان (nouns of time and place) and المصدر الميمي (verbal noun formed with ميم). There are many examples of nouns of place formed from verbs whose passive participles would be identical in form:

ملتقى meeting place/crossroads

مجتمَع meeting place/gathering place

منحدَر slope

Unfortunately, the examples (shown below, from Wright vol. I 129–130) given for the مصدر ميمي of the derived forms are no longer used to my knowledge, but the sense is that these words, which look like passive participles, have the meaning of their corresponding verbal nouns. I can't think of any other examples in use today.









I wonder, then, if مختلَف used in this way (مختلَف البلدان) is better described as a noun of time or place, like ملتقى, or as a مصدر ميمي rather than as a passive participle. In the entry from المنجد في اللغة العربية المعاصرة I included in my previous post, مختلَف is initially defined as تعدُّد أو تنوُّع, which I think supports the view that مختلَف is a مصدر ميمي having the meaning of "variation, diversity."

But I'm not sure, and I'd be interested in others' thoughts!


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## lukebeadgcf

lukebeadgcf said:


> Unfortunately, the examples (shown below, from Wright vol. I 129–130) given for the مصدر ميمي of the derived forms are no longer used to my knowledge



Just following up to say that perhaps the word مُعَوَّل in the expression ليس عليه مُعَوَّل "he (it) is not reliable" is an example of a مصدر ميمي from a derived form still in use.


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## alchimist

Sun-Shine said:


> Yes, mukhtalaf is the passive participle and mukhtalif is the active.


thanks


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## alchimist

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to point out that in my texbook (Lehrbuch des modernen Arabisch/al Arabiyya Institute) written by Krahl/Reuschel, indeed there is mukhtalif al buldan and NOT mukhtalaf.

May be I can ask this my teacher today.

Here you are, it is mukhtalif with an kasra, not with fatha


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## alchimist

Hi everybody, sorry I was not online for few days.

So my teacher said, there is no difference, but مختلِفُ البلدانِ with kasra is better. I go by that.


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## PEACE 😀

Same meaning


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