# Rasista mi? Ma se l'è lü che l'è negher! (Milanese)



## elliefleur

Ciao a tutti,

I'm currently translating the following article, and I need some help on the title in Milanese dialect:

http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Rasista-mi-Ma-se-le-l%C3%BC-che-le-negher!/2049252/18


"Rasista mi? Ma se l'è lü che l'è negher!"

I think it's something along the lines of "Me, a racist?  But it's him who's black!", but further clarification would be very much appreciated!


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## Wonder_Donnie

Razzista io? Ma è lui che è nero!

Anzi meglio:

Razzista io? Ma se è lui che è nero!


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## federicoft

elliefleur said:


> I think it's something along the lines of "Me, a racist?  But it's him who's black!" but further clarification would be very much appreciated!


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## brian

Daniele1090 said:


> Razzista io? Ma è lui che è nero!
> 
> Anzi meglio:
> 
> Razzista io? Ma se è lui che è nero!



Che cosa fa di preciso _se_ in questa frase? (o in quella milanese)


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## Wonder_Donnie

Non ti saprei spiegare bene la funzione di "se" in questa frase. Ti posso fare un esempio.

Per esempio dico "Ma mi hai detto che non potevi!"

E poi aggiungo "se"
"Ma se mi hai detto che non potevi?!"

Con il "se" dò più enfasi alla frase. Aspetta qualcun altro per fartelo spiegare meglio, sinceramente non so cosa dirti!


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## Paulfromitaly

brian8733 said:


> Che cosa fa di preciso _se_ in questa frase? (o in quella milanese)



Hard to explain..
From Hazon:



> *Se* :*in espressioni enfatiche, in frasi incidentali che attenuano un'affermazione o in espressioni di cortesia*: _che mi venga un accidente se non è vero!_; _tu, se ben ricordo, sostenevi il contrario_; _anche lei, se vogliamo, è un po' troppo impulsiva_; _se non disturbo, vorrei_... ; _perché, se è lecito, debbo sempre andarci io?_ | *può essere rafforzata da avverbi o locuzioni avverbiali*: _se per caso cambierai idea, fammelo sapere_; _se invece non è possibile, provvederemo diversamente_ | *in alcune espressioni enfatiche e nell'uso fam*. l'apodosi è spesso sottintesa: _ma se non capisce nulla!_


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## brian

Those are all just like in English except the last one, which would sound strange in English. Daniele's example would also sound kind of strange in English.

The problem is that in English we almost always have an (implied) apodosis, but in the Italian versions I can't find one, even though Hazon says "l'apodosi è spesso sottointesa." But what would it be?? 

We have an expression of surprise in English--_Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!_  (which can be modified, and then there's the short form _Well I'll be!_)--and I _think_ some people add an inexplicable _if_ in front: _Well (if) I'll be!_ and other things like _Well (if) you don't say!_ I'm not positive about that, though, but if so, maybe it's like _se_ in Italian.


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## london calling

brian8733 said:


> We have an expression of surprise in English--_Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!_  (which can be modified, and then there's the short form _Well I'll be! __That in BE is normally short for _Well, I'll be damned!)--and I _think_ some people add an inexplicable _if_ in front: _Well (if) I'll be!_ and other things like _Well (if) you don't say!_ I'm not positive about that, though, but if so, maybe it's like _se_ in Italian.


There's a very old-fashioned (and now highly uncommon, I think) locution in English:

_..but if it is/was he who...._

_But if it is he who's black!_ This sounds ridiculous, however, in modern day English.


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## brian

I figured "Well I'll be..." is short for whatever the original was, which I doubt was "I'll be a monkey's uncle."  Maybe it was "Well I'll be damned."


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## federicoft

I'd just like to add that _negher _mean _negro_. That is, a racist slur.



brian8733 said:


> Those are all just like in English except the last one, which would sound strange in English. Daniele's example would also sound kind of strange in English.
> 
> The problem is that in English we almost always have an (implied) apodosis, but in the Italian versions I can't find one, even though Hazon says "l'apodosi è spesso sottointesa." But what would it be??



The _apodosi_ is the conclusion of a _periodo ipotetico_ (sorry, don't know how to translate this into English).

So basically the conclusion is understood, for emphatic purposes. It is a very common construction, especially in not so formal speech.

E.g.
A: È scritto benissimo.
B: Ma se non si capisce nulla! [non è scritto benissimo]

A: Sei razzista!
B: Ma se è lui che è nero! [non sono razzista]

Hope this helps.


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## brian

That helps, and that's what I was originally thinking, but in English we (or I) _always_ add a question mark to those kinds of sentences. Even the intonation of the voice suggests it's a question:

_A: It's written perfectly.
B: But if no one understands a thing...?! (then what? then it's not written perfectly)

A: You're a racist!
B: Racist? Me? But if he's not even black...?! (then what? then I'm not a racist)_

P.S. _Apodosi_ is _apodosis_ in English, too. I guess I didn't understand the sentences before because without enough context I couldn't come up with the apodosis.


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## federicoft

brian8733 said:


> That helps, and that's what I was originally thinking, but in English we (or I) _always_ add a question mark to those kinds of sentences. Even the intonation of the voice suggests it's a question:



In Italian it is not read as a question though, but as an exclamation. The voice intonation is downward:

Ma se non si capisce nulla!
 Ma se è lui che è nero!


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## brian

Weird! So it is pretty different.. kind of. I never noticed this construction before. Thanks.


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## Einstein

I'm not sure if the meaning is completely clear to everyone; maybe a natural translation could be: "The trouble is not that I'm a racist, it's that he's black!"


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## raffica

Einstein said:


> I'm not sure if the meaning is completely clear to everyone; maybe a natural translation could be: "The trouble is not that I'm a racist, it's that he's black!"


Concordo con Einstein nell'interpretazione di questa frase e quindi il "se" a me non sembra indispensabile:
Razzista io? Ma (se) è lui che è un negro (ovvero è colpa sua).


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## brian

Einstein said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if the meaning is completely clear to everyone; maybe a natural translation could be: "The trouble is not that I'm a racist, it's that he's black!"



Oops, I screwed that up. I somehow read a _non_ in there.. I'm not sure what I was thinking.  Anyway, I think my wrong interpretation was based on a misreading of the sentence and not on a misunderstanding of _se_. I still think you can translate it with _if_ in English:

_A: You're a racist!
B: A racist? Me? But (if) *he's* the one who's black...?! (then it's not my fault / then I'm not racist)

_It just boils down to the interesting difference in intonation between Italian and English. Do you agree?

Of course, if you did want to retain the downward/statement-like intonation, then your translation works great.


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## Einstein

brian8733 said:


> It just boils down to the interesting difference in intonation between Italian and English. Do you agree?


Yes, probably. Maybe rhetorical questions are more common in Italian.

I've heard about some comedians from the South, years ago, who made fun of the racism of North Italians twards the South, with a different wording:
"Non siamo noi che siamo razzisti, sono loro che sono meridionali!"


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## elliefleur

Thanks to everyone for the meanings behind this!  I am now reworking my existing translation, and I have been asked to get some sort of reference to the Milanese dialect in there...

At the moment, I've just got:

*“Me, a racist?  But he’s the one who’s black!” 

*But I would like something that's sort of dialect-influenced, if you know what I mean!  

Grazie mille 
**


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## pandinorombante

elliefleur said:


> *
> *But I would like something that's sort of dialect-influenced, if you know what I mean!



I'm not sure I got your point.. would you like to add few Milanese words to the English sentence?


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## Hermocrates

elliefleur said:


> *
> *But I would like something that's sort of dialect-influenced, if you know what I mean!



I think the socio-linguistic equivalent of the Milanese dialect would probably be upper-class, Tory English, if that's what you mean. 
Taken into account that Milan is the Italian major financial and business centre, the _stereotypical_ Milanese is perceived (or portrayed, e.g. in comedy) as conservative, self-righteous, religious and somewhat xenophobic.

Or did you actually mean you would like to quote bits of Milanese dialect in the English translation?


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## elliefleur

That's very helpful! I don't want to quote dialect in the translation, as the target readership is an Anglophone with no particular knowledge of Italian, let alone dialect! 

I handed in my first draft, and my tutor wrote "what about the Milanese lingo?" next to the title.  I'm not sure how she wants me to portray it exactly, but the stereotype information is certainly useful, I think I will head along those lines!

Thanks very much!


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## Hermocrates

No worries. Glad to be of service.


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## Einstein

ryenart said:


> I think the socio-linguistic equivalent of the Milanese dialect would probably be upper-class, Tory English, if that's what you mean.
> Taken into account that Milan is the Italian major financial and business centre


I really don't think so, ryenart. This exclamation in Milanese is meant to typify an ignorant, uneducated person and is no nearer to the financial and business centre of Milan than Cockney is to the Bank of England. I'd almost suggest some strong regional English accent, but I'm not sure how that would fit with the Milanese setting. We could say something like: "What, me racist? But it's 'im what's black!"


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## federicoft

Einstein said:


> IThis exclamation in Milanese is meant to typify an ignorant, uneducated person and is no nearer to the financial and business centre of Milan than Cockney is to the Bank of England.



Totally agree.


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## laverde

Hi everybody, I just signed in and find out a post about the city I live!!!!
Nice to meet so many people who love languages and are so skilled in them....

Einstein post gets the idea perfectly. CIAOOOO


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## raffica

Sunt d'acordi anca mi cunt el Einstein.
A Milano, all'interno della buona borghesia storica (professionisti e industriali) vi sono sempre state, tradizionalmente, numerose famiglie democratiche e progressiste, mentre i nuovi ricchi (che spendono e spandono), razzisti e ignoranti, purtroppo sono sempre di più (non faccio nomi) e l'hanno rovinata.
E sciao, raffaella


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## MünchnerFax

Mi raccomando non usciamo dal seminato, eh? 
Analisi sociostoricopolitiche solo il minimissimo indispensabile a chiarire la frase in oggetto.


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## Hermocrates

raffica said:


> Sunt d'acordi anca mi cunt el Einstein.
> A Milano, all'interno della buona borghesia storica (professionisti e industriali) vi sono sempre state, tradizionalmente, numerose famiglie democratiche e progressiste, mentre i nuovi ricchi (che spendono e spandono), razzisti e ignoranti, purtroppo sono sempre di più (non faccio nomi) e l'hanno rovinata.



Really? Regardless of historical-sociological facts, I was given the impression that what I described was a good approximation of the "stereotypical" Milanese (merely based on popular culture, not actual facts!) - and in particular the typical upper-class Milanese. 

Perhaps my cultural bias may have leaked through when I inferred that the aforementioned conservative attitude is associated with upper-class, instead of lower-class. 

Oh well, I stand corrected then.


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## london calling

elliefleur said:


> I handed in my first draft, and my tutor wrote "what about the Milanese lingo?" next to the title.


Morning all!
Getting back to ellie's tutor...given that the sentence was pronounced by an ignorant lout , I suggest translating it with a bit of local colour. As a Londoner, I think something like this might work:

_Me? Colour prejidiced? But it's 'im 'o's (_who's!_) coloured!_

Pronounced in broad Cockney, obviously (hence the way I've written it).


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## elliefleur

Ciao a tutti!

I'm currently translating the following article:

http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Rasista-mi-Ma-se-le-l%C3%BC-che-le-negher!/2049252/18

I'm having trouble with the first part of the following sentence:

Da amici di vari paesi accade di ricevere ancora e-mail in cui ci chiedono come mai il presidente Berlusconi abbia potuto commettere la storica gaffe, quando ha scherzato sul fatto che il nuovo presidente degli Stati Uniti, oltre che giovane e prestante, era anche abbronzato.

I don't understand who is receiving the emails from friends in different countries, and what accade has to do with it! 

I understand the rest though 

Grazie mille!


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## Paulfromitaly

It happens that we still receive..

Quite literal, I'd say.


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## phoneybroke

elliefleur said:


> Ciao a tutti!
> 
> I'm currently translating the following article:
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble with the first part of the following sentence:
> 
> Da amici di vari paesi accade di ricevere ancora e-mail in cui ci chiedono come mai il presidente Berlusconi abbia potuto commettere la storica gaffe, quando ha scherzato sul fatto che il nuovo presidente degli Stati Uniti, oltre che giovane e prestante, era anche abbronzato.
> 
> I don't understand who is receiving the emails from friends in different countries, and what accade has to do with it!
> 
> I understand the rest though
> 
> Grazie mille!



"We are still receiving....... from" I think.
because it says "in cui *ci* chiedano"
accadere doesnt really do much
"we still happen to be receiving" maybe?


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## london calling

Hello!

Loosely: 

_We are still receiving (we still happen to receive) e-mails from friends in various parts of the world in which they ask us how on earth our PM Berlusconi could possibly have much such a boob/blunder, i.e. when he joked about the fact that the new US President was not only young and good looking but also tanned._


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