# It would have been better.../I better had...



## Riverplatense

Hello!

When I consult my Russian grammar about conditional clauses or the use of conjunctive, I can't find any distinction between (real,) possible and impossible sentences. Does 



Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, то он встретил бы вас. 

really mean



If he knew about her arrival, he would pick you up. 
If he *would have known* about her arrival, he *would have picked* you up. 

?

Or is there a way to indicate if it's already too late or if it's about a present impossibility?

How would you say _It would have been better if I didn't say anything_ in Russian?

Thank you!


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## LilianaB

Былобы лучше если бы я ничего не сказал по-русски.


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## Riverplatense

Thank you!

So the actual conditional clause does not contain the conjunctive but the preterite form which indicates that the event is already over, right?


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## LilianaB

I think so, but maybe someone can explain it better. This is the right translation I provided.


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## Budspok

Если он узнает о вашем приезде, он встретит вас. – If he knows you are arriving he will pick you up. (If that’s what you mean.) 

Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы вас  встретил. – If he had known about your arrival he would have picked you up.


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## Riverplatense

Budspok said:


> Если он узнает о вашем приезде, он встретит вас. – If he knows you are arriving he will pick you up. (If that’s what you mean.)
> 
> Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы вас  встретил. – If he had known about your arrival he would have picked you up.



But doesn't _eсли бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы вас  встретил_ also mean 'If he *knew *about it, he *would *pick you up', to say, an irreal condition in the present tense?


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## gvozd

Riverplatense said:


> But doesn't _eсли бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы вас  встретил_ also mean 'If he *knew *about it, he *would *pick you up', to say, an irreal condition in the present tense?



What does it mean - irreal condition in the present tense? Зн*ал* и встрет*ил* - the past and only the past tense in Russian.


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## LilianaB

I personally think it is better not to try to translate grammatical constructions from one language into another language, but rather express the content you want to express in Russian, for example. Conditional constructions, the way they are in English, do not make that much sense in Russian.


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## WordOrder

_Если он узнает о вашем приезде, он (обязательно) встретит вас — If he know about your arrival, he will pick you up._

_Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы встретил вас? — If he knew about your arrival, would he pick you up?_

_Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы встретил вас (жаль, что этого не произошло) — If he has known about your arrival, he would have picked you up._

Conditions of 2nd and 3rd type don't differ when they are translated into Russian. For example:

_Если бы ты знал о моем приезде, ты бы встретил меня? — If you knew about my arrival, would you pick me up?_

_Если бы ты знал о моем приезде, ты бы встретил меня? — If you have known about my arrival, would you have picked me up?_

I think it is so, because usually it is clear from the context what kind of a situation we are in. However, if you so need to say that an event is not imaginary but didn't occur you can directly say that.


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## Budspok

Riverplatense said:


> But doesn't _eсли бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы вас  встретил_ also mean 'If he *knew *about it, he *would *pick you up', to say, an irreal condition in the present tense?



In Russian it’s thе same for all three tenses:



Если бы он знал, что вы приедете, он бы вас вчера встретил. (Если бы он знал, что   вы вчера приедете, он бы вас встретил. )

 2.  Если бы он знал, что вы сегодня приедете (приезжаете), он бы вас сейчас
             встретил. 

         3. Если бы он знал, что вы завтра приедете (приезжаете), он бы вас встретил.


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## Riverplatense

Thank you all.



gvozd said:


> What does it mean - irreal condition in the present tense? Зн*ал* и встрет*ил* - the past and only the past tense in Russian.



Well, Зн*ал* и встрет*ил* may be past tense, but together with the particle _бы _they are conjunctive and can assume past, present or future meaning, I think. 



			
				LilianaB said:
			
		

> I personally think it is better not to try to translate grammatical  constructions from one language into another language, but rather  express the content you want to express in Russian, for example.  Conditional constructions, the way they are in English, do not make that  much sense in Russian.



Actually I agree. But yesterday I wanted to write precisely _It would have been better if I didn't say anything_. So I wanted to express a condition concerning an event which already occurred. Unfortunately, I'm rather used to Roman languages than to Slavic ones, so I might have a «wrong tendency» to look for different tenses within the conjunctive, even though, apparently, the Russian language doesn't know any morphological mark in order to indicate that an event already happened. So, is there a precise way to express that I have said something but it would have been better if I hadn't in one Russian sentence? I mean, in my example it's impossible to deduce the meaning out from the context.


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## LilianaB

I think it will be the translation of your phrase from my post #2. There might be some other ways to say it as well.


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## Budspok

Лучше я б (бы) этого (это) не говорил (говорила - if a female). This is the typical way a regular Russian would put it.


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## Riverplatense

Budspok said:


> Лучше я б (бы) этого (это) не говорил (говорила - if a female). This is the typical way a regular Russian would put it.



Так мне правится, спасибо! Большое спасибо и Лилиане.


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## LilianaB

You can also skip the first word in my phrase and say: лучше если б(ы) я ничего не сказал по-русски.


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## Enquiring Mind

Riverplatense said:


> When I consult my Russian grammar about conditional clauses or the use of conjunctive, I can't find any distinction between (real,) possible and impossible sentences.


That's because there *isn't* a difference in Russian between the unreal conditionals unless there are other pointers, e.g. adverbs of time._

Если бы он знал о вашем приезде, он бы встретил вас_ can mean both (i) and (ii):
(i) _If he knew you were coming, he would pick you up_. (You haven't arrrived, the situation is hypothetical, it could still happen)
(ii) _If he had known you were coming, he would have picked you up_. (You have already arrived, so he can't pick you up, it cannot possibly happen)

(If he *would have known* ...  is not possible, as explained on this page) 

Russian Grammar, James S. Levine, 1999, McGraw-Hill, p261, says:
"In an unreal conditional, the past tense of the verb is past _in form only_, it is _not_ necessarily past in meaning.  The tense form in an unreal conditional construction may, depending on context, relate to present, past or future time.  For example, in the following two sentences it is the adverbs *завтра* (tomorrow) and *вчера* (yesterday) that relate the time of the situation to the future (If I were to receive, (or if I received...) and the past (If I had received ...) respectively.

Если завтра я получил бы деньги, я бы купил плейер.
If I received/were to receive the money tomorrow, I would buy a CD player. 

Если вчера я получил бы деньги, я бы купил плейер.
If I had received the money yesterday, I would have bought a CD player."

This page on conditional sentences in Russian may also be helpful. (Scroll down to the "Unreal Conditional")


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## ({[|]})

Enquiring Mind said:


> That's because there *isn't* a difference in Russian between the unreal conditionals unless there are other pointers, e.g. adverbs of time.


Exactly, Enquiring Mind! We get to know whether the condition is real or  unreal only using context and context-specific wordings. For example,  "было бы лучше, если б я не говорил по-русски"/"было бы лучше, если б я  ничего ей не сказал/не говорил" imply that in fact I said something, and so the condition is unreal, *because* otherwise I wouldn't complain like that (using the word "лучше").
(You can't omit "Было бы", as LilianaB suggested; and in fact, it's better to use "лучше б я не...")

But the quote from the book is not as good as your answer is.  There is indeed a correlation between the time of the situation, taken  as the condition, and the tense of the conditional phrase. The first example in the book is wrong; the second is more or less correct —  except its word order.

Cheers!

APP: My try to translate the sentences from the book (I hope I got the nuances right — I meet the constructions "if I received the money tomorrow" and "if I were to receive the money tomorrow" for the first time!)

If I receive the money tomorrow, then I'll buy a CD-player.
Если я получу завтра деньги, то куплю CD-плейер.

If I received the money tomorrow, I would buy a CD-player
Если завтра я получаю деньги, то иду в магазин и покупаю CD-плейер.

If I were to receive the money tomorrow, I would buy a CD-player.
Если бы завтра я мог получить деньги, то купил бы CD-плейер.

If I had received the money yesterday, I would have bought a CD player
Если бы вчера я получил деньги, то купил бы CD-плейер.

Why "иду в магазин"? Because I need to draw the primary attention of the listener to the conditional meaning of the phrase.


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## LilianaB

Hi,  why cannot you omit "Было бы", especially in informal speech?


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## ({[|]})

LilianaB said:


> Hi,  why cannot you omit "Было бы", especially in informal speech?


Well, I can't  Not that it is absolutely impossible, but for my ear something is really missing without "было бы" there. After all, if one wants to be informal, he uses the construction that Budspok suggested, right? So the construction with "лучше" in a separate clause must be more formal... And also — yes, in informal and uncareful speech we may make even rather inappropriate mistakes, but it doesn't mean we should take them as the right thing to do?

For example, some really strange mistakes in our very complex conjugations ("украм" instead of "украду", I made this mistake just this morning — no, I'm not a thief  ), some inconsistencies ("обеих братьев" ), some really strange constructions ("а книгу я читал вообще странная какая-то") etc etc.


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## LilianaB

Hi, what is the difference between Budsok's expression and mine? He also has omitted the same phrase. Лучше я б (бы) этого (это) не говорил. Does _если_ make the difference to you?


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## TheGist

LilianaB said:


> Hi, what is the difference between Budsok's expression and mine? He also has omitted the same phrase. Лучше я б (бы) этого (это) не говорил. Does _если_ make the difference to you?


"Лучше я б (бы) этого не говорил" means "I wish I hadn't said that". It's not a conditional sentence. You're just saying what you shouldn't have done.
"Было бы лучше, если б я этого не говорил" is a conditional sentence and means "It would be better, if I didn't say that" or "It would be better, if I hadn't said that" depending on the situation.
 You can drop "было бы" in speech and just say "Лучше, если б я этого не говорил" but it sounds elliptic to me and doesn't constitute a fully formed sentence. "Было бы" is still implied here and expected in more careful speech.


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## LilianaB

There are no conditional sentences type II  v. type III in Russian. It is something that belongs mostly to the English language, perhaps some other Germanic languages or possibly Romance languages.   You can crate an artificial Type III Conditional in Russian, but no one speaks like that.


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