# Novice Test



## Hakro

I have lately seen several somehow embarrassing situations caused by newbies who haven't read the WR rules. They have been embarrassing to the forer@s, the moderators and probably to the newbies themselves. 

That's why, after conferring with Ilmo, I suggest that there would be a "Novice Test" for checking that the wannabe forer@s have understood certain basic rules.

This test would not be obligatory, and it wouldn't prevent the first post (nor the later ones) in any way. It could be sent to the newbie later, just to remind him/her of the WR rules.

   The "Novice Test" could remind the new forer@ about the rules with right/wrong questions like this, for example:

-You can show the urgency of your question by writing the title of your question, and the whole text if possible, in CAPITAL LETTERS.
□Right □Wrong
-Make clear what you are asking: a translation English-Spanish or Spanish-English or a definition in English or something else.
□Right □Wrong
-The posts should be as compact as possible. Write context (if any) as short as possible, use abbreviations, etc.
□Right □Wrong
-To keep the number of threads reasonable, it's advisable to collect several questions in one post.
□Right □Wrong
-You shouldn't use text message language.
□Right □Wrong
-It's advisable to repeat the phrase to be translated although it may be already as the title of the post.
□Right □Wrong
-English is the language recommended to be used in all forums except “Other Languages”.
□Right □Wrong
-Chatting if forbidden except in the "Congrats Pages".
□Right □Wrong
-You ought to look first whether you can find the word in the WR dictionary (see top of the page) and whether the same question has been asked before (try "Search this Forum"). 
□Right □Wrong
-You can save time and secure that your post will be seen if you put it at the end of an existing thread. 
□Right □Wrong
-If you want a translation of more than a short expression, you should always try first to translate the sentences yourself and then let the other forer@as correct your text.
□Right □Wrong

   By the way, this "test" could be sent also to the senior forer@os, too. It wouldn't do any harm.

   Answering the "Novice Test" could be rewarded for example by giving one extra "post point".

   What do you think?


----------



## lsp

I appreciate your intention and frustration. That said, aside from the fact that I think the same number of people will pay attention to it as pay attention to the rules, what kind of reward is a post-point, and by extension what kind of message is sent by suggesting that post count matters in any way here?


----------



## Hakro

It seems to me that some forer@s appreciate post counting and right now I coudn't find any other kind of reward that might encourage forer@s to participate the Novice Test.

Maybe somebody finds better ways for rewarding.


----------



## fenixpollo

I agree that we should look for ways to encourage newbies to (a) read the rules, (b) post with context, or (c) all of the above.  However, I agree with lsp that a test isn't the best way.  Even if they paid attention to it, I think the learning that they got out of it would be limited.

I'm not sure that there is a solution to this problem.


----------



## lsp

Hakro said:


> It seems to me that some forer@s appreciate post counting ...


That, in my humble opinion, is part of a separate problem, not a solution.


----------



## Etcetera

And besides all that, who is to send this Novice Test to the newbies and who is to verify their answers?


----------



## Hakro

Etcetera said:


> And besides all that, who is to send this Novice Test to the newbies and who is to verify their answers?


I'm sure this can be done automatically.


----------



## TrentinaNE

There are some features in the works to make it more obvious to everyone that certain precautions should be taken before hitting the "Submit Reply" button, but short of pre-moderating every member's first post, I don't think there is a great solution to the newbie problem.  (And to be fair, many first-timers do just fine...   )

Elisabetta


----------



## emma42

Hakro, I understand your frustrations and share them.  The amount of chatspeak appearing in some of these threads at the moment is awful.  I think we need more mods. The mods might agree.  If they do, I have no reason to think that they are not doing something about it.


----------



## fenixpollo

Hakro said:
			
		

> It seems to me that some forer@s appreciate post counting and right now I coudn't find any other kind of reward that might encourage forer@s to participate the Novice Test.


 One reward I suggest is actually a punishment: either delete contextless queries with a PM to the perpetrator, or reply to contextless queries with the warning that they will receive no response until they read the rules and return with context. 





TrentinaNE said:


> (And to be fair, many first-timers do just fine... )


 I'm not sure how well this statement applies to Spanish-English General Vocabulary.


----------



## maxiogee

fenixpollo said:


> or reply to contextless queries with the warning that they will receive no response until they read the rules and return with context.



B - u - t ................. what do we do about the people who leap in feet first and offer solutions for the query?
It's pretty pointless if a Mod tut-tuts and says "read the *FAQ'n'Rules* mate!"  if several forer@s have posted in the meantime with suggestions.


----------



## cuchuflete

maxiogee said:


> B - u - t ................. what do we do about the people who leap in feet first and offer solutions for the query?
> It's pretty pointless if a Mod tut-tuts and says "read the *FAQ'n'Rules* mate!"  if several forer@s have posted in the meantime with suggestions.



Let's not give all the credit to the newbies.  The problem is exactly as Tony has described it.  This post was reported, because the question ignored English Only guidelines, and some experienced foreros were very anxious to provide detailed help, in precisely the manner Tony mentioned.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=301481


----------



## TrentinaNE

fenixpollo said:


> I'm not sure how well this statement applies to Spanish-English General Vocabulary.


In percentage terms, do you think it's any worse than the other forums? There are over 380 threads that have been updated today alone in that forum. Even with 7 moderators, I don't have a clue how they stay on top of that much traffic!  My playground of IT-EN (with about 110 threads today) is a piece of cake in comparison.  

Elisabetta


----------



## natasha2000

Hakro said:


> It seems to me that some forer@s appreciate post counting and right now I coudn't find any other kind of reward that might encourage forer@s to participate the Novice Test.
> 
> Maybe somebody finds better ways for rewarding.


 
To be allowed to post X off-topic posts? 




maxiogee said:


> B - u - t ................. what do we do about the people who leap in feet first and offer solutions for the query?
> It's pretty pointless if a Mod tut-tuts and says "read the *FAQ'n'Rules* mate!"  if several forer@s have posted in the meantime with suggestions.


 
I agree with Maxiogee. Sometimes, it is more frustrating the fact that someone answers to contextless questions than the very same contextless question itself. I see the only solution in adding more moderators. BTW, the traffic in General vocabulary is simply brutal. If the question is not answered in half time, it is already on the second page! This is really the light speed. More mods for this particular forum, this is the only solution.


----------



## Alicky

TrentinaNE said:


> In percentage terms, do you think it's any worse than the other forums? There are over 380 threads that have been updated today alone in that forum. Even with 7 moderators, I don't have a clue how they stay on top of that much traffic!  My playground of IT-EN (with about 110 threads today) is a piece of cake in comparison.
> 
> Elisabetta


 

Please take a look and see it for yourself. A million posts per minute (almost)
When I was a young forera this didn't bother me too much, but today, after only two months of being here, it bothers me. And you can't even ask the (not always) newbie to read the guidelines because, as natasha said, the answers are on page two already. 
I can't even begin to imagine what it feels like for people that has been around for posts and posts: the oldies 
I like Hakro's idea. I find it difficult to carry it out, but like it.



lsp said:


> That, in my humble opinion, is part of a separate problem, not a solution.


 
Yes, what's that? Why in heavens would someone want to have a bigger post count? (That's not a rethorical question, perhaps I should open a new thread  )


----------



## Hakro

Alicky said:


> Why in heavens would someone want to have a bigger post count? (That's not a rethorical question, perhaps I should open a new thread  )


Why?
To get sooner the right to give URLs.
To become sooner a "senior member", it's like a higher grade.
To reach the first milestone of 1,000 posts and get nice congratulations from other forer@s.
etc.


----------



## natasha2000

Hakro said:


> Why?
> To get sooner the right to give URLs.
> To become sooner a "senior member", it's like a higher grade.
> To reach the first milestone of 1,000 posts and get nice congratulations from other forer@s.
> etc.


 
I'm sorry Hakro, I know you're well intentioned, but somehow I find these reasons more appropriate for boyscouts than for a forum like WR...  We are here mostly adults, and adults unfortunatelly need more tempting rewards...


----------



## Hakro

natasha2000 said:


> I'm sorry Hakro, I know you're well intentioned, but somehow I find these reasons more appropriate for boyscouts than for a forum like WR...  We are here mostly adults, and adults unfortunatelly need more tempting rewards...


I'm sorry, Natasha, but to me most of the forer@s don't seem to be very adult... it's not depending on age. 

I just gave the possible reasons that I've seen on the WR forums.


----------



## Alicky

Hakro said:


> Why?
> To get sooner the right to give URLs.
> To become sooner a "senior member", it's like a higher grade.
> To reach the first milestone of 1,000 posts and get nice congratulations from other forer@s.
> etc.


 
Yes, I understand the first one, but if you want to post an URL send a message to a mod and ask them to post it (I read that somewhere ). And they can post them anyway writing them like this _wordreference dot com_
And, for the last two I thought about them too, but to me they shouldn't been a incentive. Being junior or senior doesn't make you better or worse.


----------



## Alicky

Hakro said:


> I'm sorry, Natasha, but to me most of the forer@s don't seem to be very adult... it's not depending on age.
> 
> I just gave the possible reasons that I've seen on the WR forums.


 
And that should bother us. Are you here to help or are you here to become the guy with the 300.000 posts?

But, returning to the topic, perhaps when you submit to WR and you are filling those boxes and etc., the test could be inserted there.


----------



## Hakro

Thanks for your comments, Alicky and Natasha, about the post counting, but after all it's not the point of this thread. As I said in post #3 it just happened to come to my mind and someone sure would find a better way of rewarding, if it's needed.


----------



## Hakro

Alicky said:


> And that should bother us. Are you here to help or are you here to become the guy with the 300.000 posts?
> 
> But, returning to the topic, perhaps when you submit to WR and you are filling those boxes and etc., the test could be inserted there.


Of course I would be proud to be the the first guy to reach three hundred thousand posts, and I have to work really hard to get past some competitors that seem to be quicker...

The Novice Test could be inserted anywhere but I wouldn't raise the entering threshold higher than necessary.


----------



## natasha2000

Hakro said:


> Thanks for your comments, Alicky and Natasha, about the post counting, but after all it's not the point of this thread. As I said in post #3 it just happened to come to my mind and someone sure would find a better way of rewarding, if it's needed.


 
Dear Hakro, I didn't mean anything bad with my comments, I just wanted to be funny (obviously I didn't have any success)

The point is that I don't see any reward that might be so tempting for most of foreros that would make them to read the rules (even if they read them and know them by heart, how would you make them to follow them if they don't want to?). Most of us read them because we just want to participate with as less problems as possible, meaning, we just follow out common sense, as we would do at any other place where we are new. 
As far as the age of foreros, I see a lot of adults and a few teenagers. I don't see any children under 10. Adult is for me a person that is 18 years old or more. 
But you're right about that this has nothing to do with age.
As a matter of fact, I know some teenager foreros that are more mature than many of other adult foreros.


----------



## Hakro

No problem, Natasha, I didn't get hurt.



natasha2000 said:


> As a matter of fact, I know some teenager foreros that are more mature than many of other adult foreros.


This I agree 100% or more! (I'd like to mention some names but maybe it's not fair...)


----------



## geve

Alicky said:


> I can't even begin to imagine what it feels like for people that has been around for posts and posts: the oldies


I'll tell ya: things were better the way they used to beeeee    (and I'm not even that "old" )



natasha2000 said:


> The point is that I don't see any reward that might be so tempting for most of foreros that would make them to read the rules


I know just the perfect thing:
.......................................................................................................................more PM capacity.​ 
Imagine you're a newbie and you start with an amount of 50 PMs allowed in your PM box (or even less). This doesn't seem to be a big deal. But then you make a few friends (and/or a few ennemies) and soon you reach 49, and there is a button that says "PM box enlargement" (hey that sounds like some spams I used to get in my e-mail box!), you click, and you discover that if you answer a few very basic questions about the forums you'll get granted with 50 more PMs that you can keep and gaze at forever. "It should be a piece of cake considering I've been posting 15 messages per hour since I found this place", you think. Ah-ha! you fell for the trick, and soon you'll discover that context-is-required and no-deep-proofreading-allowed and wash-behind-the-ears and no-chatting-no-displaying-private-information-no-links-in-signature and so on.

So, do I rock or what?


----------



## Hakro

Yesss, Gève, you rock and roll! (As you always do!)

We could have saved many useless posts if I had got this idea in the beginning.

Besides, this might be a perfect way of rewarding forer@s in other cases, the Novice Test realised or not.


----------



## natasha2000

geve said:


> I know just the perfect thing:
> .......................................................................................................................more PM capacity.​


​Now we are talking. 

The thing is how to make people to apply the rules, to obey them, not to merely know them. As I already said, one can know all the rules, but even so, he sistematically breaks them. Maybe we could make some points that would be given by mods. when you post gets deleted or you get warned by mods because you put contextless question, you get one negative point, and YOU loose your PM space. You can recover it if after let's say three months, you don't get any more warnings/deletitions. This is something that I can imagine in WR. The only problem is: how to arrange it? Who will take care of deblocking the PM space? Maybe this can be programmed so it can be automatic? Because this would be the only way to do it indiscriminately with everyone. If mods were to take care about it, I am sure it would be some mistakes (after all, they are only humans), and I think this would bring only more problems, and little good.​


----------



## Jana337

Natasha,

I don't think that new members, who - unlike you - do not have a network of friends here, do not care about the PM feature that much. 

Jana


----------



## geve

natasha2000 said:


> The thing is how to make people to apply the rules, to obey them, not to merely know them.


*"Knowledge is the beginning of practice; doing is the completion of knowing."*

...said Wang Yang-Ming.


----------



## natasha2000

Jana337 said:


> Natasha,
> 
> I don't think that new members, who - unlike you - do not have a network of friends here, do not care about the PM feature that much.
> 
> Jana


 
Thanks, Jana, it is always nice to hear something like that.

On the other hand, I must agree with you. I didn't care much about PM box capacity until I reached, let's say, some 1000-1500 posts...


----------



## geve

natasha2000 said:


> Thanks, Jana, it is always nice to hear something like that.
> 
> On the other hand, I must agree with you. I didn't care much about PM box capacity until I reached, let's say, some 1000-1500 posts...


OK then, let's start the educating process with members with 1000+ posts! 

Ok, off I go with my fantastic idea.   But you know, I can come up with many more ideas like that. What I need is something that would appeal to the particular people we want to target... What would newbies who don't follow the rules find interesting... Oh, I know! What if the button said _"Fed up with the constant mod ranting? Answer this test and get a free automatic mod-comments-eraser!"_


----------



## natasha2000

One question. This "education" of newbies, does it refer only to those who open threads or also to those who answer threads that brake the rules? We can try to "educate" those who don't follow the rules, but it would be all in vane if there is always some wise guy/girl who eagerly tries to answer contextless post...

As I already said... 
More mods, please. This is the only solution.


----------



## Hakro

natasha2000 said:


> One question. This "education" of newbies, does it refer only to those who open threads or also to those who answer threads that brake the rules? We can try to "educate" those who don't follow the rules, but it would be all in vane if there is always some wise guy/girl who eagerly tries to answer contextless post...


As I said in the beginning:     _By the way, this "test" could be sent to the senior forer@os, too. It wouldn't do any harm.
_


----------



## geve

natasha2000 said:


> As I already said...
> More mods, please. This is the only solution.


But Natasha, we must have faith in the human being, and trust that they can learn to behave without an extended mod squad being required.

Did I hear someone say "naive"??

On the other hand, why more mods? Why not less members? Could WRF become a members only club where one could only enter through cooptation and a fastidious eleven-steps process?

Ok, I think I've had enough brilliant ideas for today. Now would probably be a good time for me to go to bed. But I just feel overly creative tonight!


----------



## natasha2000

geve said:


> But Natasha, we must have faith in the human being, and trust that they can learn to behave without an extended mod squad being required.


 
Somehow, I've lost it. Human being, in order to do something, must be motivated - by reward or by punishment. 



> Did I hear someone say "naive"??


jejeje... It ecoes through all WR... 



> On the other hand, why more mods? Why not less members? Could WRF become a members only club where one could only enter through cooptation and a fastidious eleven-steps process?


I don't think this is the idea of WR that Mike has...




> Ok, I think I've had enough brilliant ideas for today. Now would probably be a good time for me to go to bed. But I just feel overly creative tonight


Maybe you get more of them while sleeping. It happens to me all the time... If only I could remember them when I wake up....


----------



## Hakro

geve said:


> Ok, I think I've had enough brilliant ideas for today. Now would probably be a good time for me to go to bed. But I just feel overly creative tonight!


I wish I were with you creating new brilliant ideas.


----------



## Trina

natasha2000 said:


> [/right]
> Now we are talking.
> 
> The thing is how to make people to apply the rules, to obey them, not to merely know them. As I already said, one can know all the rules, but even so, he sistematically breaks them. Maybe we could make some points that would be given by mods. when you post gets deleted or you get warned by mods because you put contextless question, you get one negative point, and YOU loose your PM space.[...]​


As a relatively new member (apparently I joined back in Dec 2004 - which I can't remember   but my first post was Feb 2006), I was surprised how quickly one moved through the ranks. In my opinion 100 posts is too low to be considered a "Senior Member". I think *at least* 1000 would be considered more than reasonable. (100 posts to move from junior to member)
Although I have read the rules and do try to follow them, I don't always remember them! A couple of days ago I managed to get two infingements - one a closed thread (which I might add was generously later reopened) and then started a Congrats thread on someone who did not wish to have one started. (I can tell you it felt strange pressing the "report a bad post" button on your own post ) I'm sure there are many out there who do break the rules, unintentionally, every now and then and I think this should be taken into account before any "punishment" is doled out. On the topic of regular rule-breakers ... if the same rule is broken more than X times by the same person then some form of penalty *should* apply.



> Geve:Ok, I think I've had enough brilliant ideas for today. Now would probably be a good time for me to go to bed. But I just feel overly creative tonight
> Hakro:I wish I were with you creating new brilliant ideas.


Shouldn't you be saving this conversation for PMs?


----------



## geve

natasha2000 said:


> Somehow, I've lost it. Human being, in order to do something, must be motivated - by reward or by punishment.


Our esteem should be their reward; our disappointment, their punishment. 
Ok, I hear what you meant by echo now.



Hakro said:


> I wish I were with you creating new brilliant ideas.


Well then Hakro, should I get suspicious considering I had just said I was about to go to bed?   (which obviously was a lie, but still)

We could actually organize creativity sessions. I could give a few tips - the very first one being "no censoring, every idea is worth sharing" ...as you can see from my posts!

Now "seriously", in some cases I feel that what some members would need to learn more than anything else, is common sense. 
When you've explained to someone through various means how posting context helps to get useful replies, and how doing someone else's homework doesn't help them to learn, and they still don't get the point, what else is there to do? Unfortunately common sense isn't sold in injectable doses. 
So, would another system work to help enforce the rules? There are rules & FAQs, there are stickies, sometimes even announcements... There are reminders from members and mods in the threads and via PMs... 
Or, is it a problem of style? Would it be more efficient if it were presented in a playful manner? Because you know, "internet should be fun". Resources on the internet should not require fastidious reading. Sometimes all it takes is a few spangles... So let's get our heads together and make our ranting glamorous!


----------



## Hakro

geve said:


> Well then Hakro, should I get suspicious considering I had just said I was about to go to bed?   (which obviously was a lie, but still) Yes, you should!
> 
> We could actually organize creativity sessions. I could give a few tips - the very first one being "no censoring, every idea is worth sharing" ...as you can see from my posts! Just name a place and time for the first session!
> 
> Now "seriously", in some cases I feel that what some members would need to learn more than anything else, is common sense.
> When you've explained to someone through various means how posting context helps to get useful replies, and how doing someone else's homework doesn't help them to learn, and they still don't get the point, what else is there to do? Unfortunately common sense isn't sold in injectable doses.
> So, would another system work to help enforce the rules? There are rules & FAQs, there are stickies, sometimes even announcements... There are reminders from members and mods in the threads and via PMs...
> Or, is it a problem of style? Would it be more efficient if it were presented in a playful manner? Because you know, "internet should be fun". (Haven't we had fun?) Resources on the internet should not require fastidious reading. Sometimes all it takes is a few spangles... So let's get our heads together and make our ranting glamorous!


Now I'm sure that my suggestion was not the right one, but I don't regret because I think it was useful to pick up other and much better ideas.

I have also found that the same problem is embarrassing not only me and Ilmo but also other forer@s that I esteem very highly. Probably many others haven't noticed this thread.

Let's think about this and find new solutions, maybe in a new thread.


----------



## geve

Trina said:


> Shouldn't you be saving this conversation for PMs?


Indeed, Trina, and this shows that even members who've been around for a while can be naughty! 



Hakro said:


> Let's think about this and find new solutions, maybe in a new thread.


You're right, this one is getting dirty. 

Though we're on the right track I think. One of the first things to do before any creativity is done, is to define well the issue you wish to adress. You did that in your first post: "I have lately seen several somehow embarrassing situations caused by newbies who haven't read the WR rules." [emphasis mine]
So we want the rules to be read. I say paint them in shiny colours, sprinkle them with sparkles, add a hint of humour and you've baked yourself a lovely read-me party cake!

Now if you'll excuse me, the lady needs to rest to keep her lovely face. 
(no, Hakro, this isn't an invitation for the first creativity session)


----------



## Alicky

geve said:


> Indeed, Trina, and this shows that even members who've been around for a while can be naughty!
> 
> 
> You're right, this one is getting dirty.
> 
> Though we're on the right track I think. One of the first things to do before any creativity is done, is to define well the issue you wish to adress. You did that in your first post: "I have lately seen several somehow embarrassing situations caused by newbies who haven't read the WR rules." [emphasis mine]
> So we want the rules to be read. I say paint them in shiny colours, sprinkle them with sparkles, add a hint of humour and you've baked yourself a lovely read-me party cake!
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, the lady needs to rest to keep her lovely face.
> (no, Hakro, this isn't an invitation for the first creativity session)


 
You don't want the rules to be read, you want the rules to *be followed*.  
My two-cents: unless your post follows the guidelines, you'll forced to work as a mod for an entire month: taste your own medicine is my motto  

No, jokes aside, this thread echoes something I've been reading here for the past weeks: posts are becoming "less-contexted"*,"less-coherented"* and apparently more rude. 

*lovely words right?


----------



## fenixpollo

natasha2000 said:


> This "education" of newbies, does it refer only to those who open threads or also to those who answer threads that break the rules? We can try to "educate" those who don't follow the rules, but it would be all in vain if there is always some wise guy/girl who eagerly tries to answer contextless post...
> 
> More mods, please. This is the only solution.


I disagree. I think that since we can never successfully educate the newbies, we need to focus our education efforts on those senior members you're talking about -- the well-meaning ones who are such great, helpful people that they focus entirely on contributing and not enough on helping maintain order** in the forum.  Senior members, who tend to be more aware of things going on in the forum (did I just put my foot in my mouth?), might be reached by a new, forum-wide announcement or sticky -- "ATTENTION! Senior Members!" with a list of expectations for senior members that centered on the three pillars of WR -- collaboration, collegiality and linguistic focus -- and requesting their assistance in reducing contextless queries, homework requests, etc.

_ **I'm not a control freak, but I recognize that we would have more fun and less frustration if we reduced contextless queries._


Trina said:


> In my opinion 100 posts is too low to be considered a "Senior Member". I think *at least* 1000 would be considered more than reasonable. (100 posts to move from junior to member)


 We've had this conversation before, and it was made clear by the senior mods and by Mike K. that they don't want the post count to be the focus of the forum and they don't intend to change vBulletin's default setting of 30 & 100.


----------



## Fernando

I endorse Hakro's proposal.

I know that many of us would not have passed the test, but it is a good idea to reduce the work of mods.


----------



## maxiogee

emma42 said:


> I think we need more mods.





natasha2000 said:


> More mods for this particular forum


 


fenixpollo said:


> I disagree.


 
*I agree with the Fiery Chicken!*
How many mods would ever be 'enough'?
The three fora I frequent are Cultural Discussions (4 mods), English Only (5 mods) and  Comments and Suggestiveness (unbounded). _Ample_ would be an understatement.


----------



## emma42

I really don't agree, Tony.  Isn't it obvious from the amount of chatspeak and other rubbish we are seeing that the mods have not got time to deal with everything?  Eh?  eh?


----------



## natasha2000

maxiogee said:


> *I agree with the Fiery Chicken!*
> How many mods would ever be 'enough'?
> The three fora I frequent are Cultural Discussions (4 mods), English Only (5 mods) and Comments and Suggestiveness (unbounded). _Ample_ would be an understatement.


 
But you don't frequent General vocabulary. I don't say more mods for all forums, but for some, maybe this is a solution.

I also agree with Fenix on this:


> I think that since we can never successfully educate the newbies, we need to focus our education efforts on those senior members you're talking about -- the well-meaning ones who are such great, helpful people that they focus entirely on contributing and not enough on helping maintain order** in the forum.


PS: Thanks for spelling corrections, Fenix!


----------



## geve

Alicky said:


> You don't want the rules to be read, you want the rules to *be followed*.


No, Hakro explicitly said that he wants the rules to be read.  If I may add something: read and understood. 

So, yes, I've had an idea during the night... I thought again about the test Hakro suggested in his first post, which had IMO the right intent: something light - possibly even fun - to teach newbies the ropes.
But instead of rewarding those who read it, maybe we should make it compulsory...

 Why not make this "soft education" part of the registering process?

No, not like the extensive text in a very little window below which you need to tick "I have read, and agree to abide by the WordReference Forums rules" - something that would come on top of that.
We could define the few basic principles, out of the extended list of rules and guidelines, that 1) are most frequently not respected by newbies, 2) do the most harm to the general smoothness of the forums when they're not respected. Mods, what do you find yourself wasting your time at?

So for instance, instead of filling out one single form with all the information when registering, it could go like that:

______________
Registration process 1/5

Welcome to WordReference Forums, a friendly community centered on collaboration, collegiality and linguistic focus. We're glad you join to help and get helped.

- Choose your username: [__________]

* Click! *


______________
Registration process 2/5

A little organization is required to ensure efficient discussion. *Please always put your question in the title of your thread.*
If you don't, your thread might not get spotted by those who have the answer,
and won't be found later by those who have the same question.

- Choose a password for your user account: [__________]

* Click! *


______________
Registration process 3/5

Don't get yourself or the forum into trouble!
*- Don't post personal data on the public forum* (safer to do it through the private message function instead)
*- Don't post more than 4 lines of copyrighted material such as song lyrics* (but you can post a link to it)
*- Don't post advertising or anything promotional*(and especially, no links in signatures please)

- Confirm your password: [__________]

* Click! *


______________
Registration process 4/5

Good questions get good answers : *Provide all the information you can when asking a question.*
- Always provide context (without it, members can't do better than a dictionary)
- Check the dictionary first and post your attempt (it's easier to start from something)
- Don't use abbreviations or chatspeak (you don't want to confuse learners or members too old to understand SMS language )
- Make sure you're posting in the right forum.

- Please enter a valid e-mail address: [__________]

* Click! *


______________
Registration process 5/5

We believe it's better to help people learn, rather than do their work for them.
*WRF is not a translation service. WRF members doesn't provide deep proof-reading of texts.*

- Confirm your e-mail adress: [__________]

* Click! *


______________
*Welcome, username! You are now successfully registered to WRF.* 

Additional information
Native country and language: [__________]
Time zone: [__________]
etc

Get started!
You can check out all the rules and FAQs here.
You can access the various forums from the main page. Their names are self-explanatory as to what kind of questions you can ask there and in which language, but if you have any doubt there is a sticky in each sub-forum to explain the scope of this particular forum. For a brief introduction to the various forums, click here. 
If you have further questions, please contact a moderator, or visit the Comments&Suggestions forum.




These might not be the rights items or the right order, but you get the idea... A few concise, clear-cut sentences to make sure that every newbie has at least come across the guidelines that are really really crucial on these forums. (I didn't find the spangles, but I did try to use shiny colors! )


----------



## fenixpollo

emma42 said:


> I really don't agree, Tony.  Isn't it obvious from the amount of chatspeak and other rubbish we are seeing that the mods have not got time to deal with everything?  Eh?  eh?


Why is it that the mods have to deal with "everything"?  This would mean that if I see a thread with no context, I have to avoid any involvement until a mod arrives. That's not the way that this community has worked, and it's contrary to the whole concept, in my mind. If everyone is collaborating to answer each others' questions, then everyone should collaborate when a bad question is asked, or when a rule is broken.


----------



## emma42

Oh, I totally agree, fenixpollo, but the problem is (as I have found) that polite requests and reminders by non-mod forer@s are often ignored.  Not always, but often.


----------



## Ilmo

emma42 said:


> Oh, I totally agree, fenixpollo, but the problem is (as I have found) that polite requests and reminders by non-mod forer@s are often ignored. Not always, but often.


 
I agree with you, Emma - when I have asked for context, they just keep waiting until some other forer@ presents his/her guess as an answer.

But, another thing:

I’m a bit surprised that nobody seems to have noticed the humorous in the test suggested by Hakro:

1)indicating urgency with capital letters 3) making context as short as possible 4) collecting several questions to one post in order to limit the number of threads 7) recommending English as the only language except in "Other Languages" 10) securing readers to your post by posting it at the end of an existing thread.

In my opinion all these are so coarse infringements that everybody ought to even laugh at them.

Still another thing:
I have found out, that in many cases people do no know what a context means. This is a recent example (of a inquiry made in a post added at the end of a quite different thread):
*"Forward hold" es la palabrita que me está enloqueciendo. El contexto es "install one receptacle in the forward hold". 

*I have received quite many similar "contexts", that is, only a few words added just to make of it a complete sentence.

What if there would a sticker to explain what for instance a sufficient context means (thoug, of course, it doesn't help in cases where the rules are not read at all.

By the way, in the case above I guessed right asking the novice, whether the text that he was trranslating handled maritime electric installations. But he could have said it himself directly, couldn’t he?


----------



## emma42

Hi Ilmo.  Yes, it is annoying when one asks for context and then is just given a few more words when much more is needed.  I think, though, it would be difficult to explain what we mean by sufficient context in a sticky because sometimes one does only need a few more words, and sometimes a whole paragraph.

Yes, the novice could have said it himself!  Perhaps we have made such a good impression on newbies that they think we can read minds!


----------



## fenixpollo

Ilmo said:


> I’m a bit surprised that nobody seems to have noticed the humorous in the test suggested by Hakro.  In my opinion all these are so coarse infringements that everybody ought to even laugh at them.


There's no humor there. Those infractions happen every day. They are too common to be funny. 


> I have found out, that in many cases people do no know what a context means.


 I am also frustrated by this.

|
|
\/


----------



## Fernando

I agree with fenixpollo, but maybe because of:

1) My lack of understanding of Finnish humour.

2) My grey nature.

I do not find the humour in Hakro remarks. I agree with their plainest meaning.


----------



## Alicky

geve said:


> No, Hakro explicitly said that he wants the rules to be read.  If I may add something: read and understood.
> 
> So, yes, I've had an idea during the night... I thought again about the test Hakro suggested in his first post, which had IMO the right intent: something light - possibly even fun - to teach newbies the ropes.
> But instead of rewarding those who read it, maybe we should make it compulsory...
> 
> _* Why not make this "soft education" part of the registering process?   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*_
> 
> No, not like the extensive text in a very little window below which you need to tick "I have read, and agree to abide by the WordReference Forums rules" - something that would come on top of that.
> We could define the few basic principles, out of the extended list of rules and guidelines, that 1) are most frequently not respected by newbies, 2) do the most harm to the general smoothness of the forums when they're not respected. Mods, what do you find yourself wasting your time at?
> 
> So for instance, instead of filling out one single form with all the information when registering, it could go like that:


 
You genious! That's exactly what I was talking about. Great minds think alike they say...  

Honestly, it's a good idea.


----------



## geve

Alicky said:


> You genious! That's exactly what I was talking about. Great minds think alike they say...
> 
> Honestly, it's a good idea.


Indeed, Alicky, I've just searched the thread and found that back there on page 1, in post 20, you had said:


Alicky said:


> But, returning to the topic, perhaps when you submit to WR and you are filling those boxes and etc., the test could be inserted there.


But see, that's exactly what creativity is about: to steal someone else's idea, change a few words and sell it as your own. I am so good at it that I didn't even realize I was doing it this time... My apologies!





Ilmo said:


> I agree with you, Emma - when I have asked for context, they just keep waiting until some other forer@ presents his/her guess as an answer.


Really?? This seems strange to me. Do you tell them that without more information it's impossible to answer or that they'll get wrong answers? I firmly believe in the good will of people when it's about getting what they want  and most of the times in the French-English, when I ask for more context/a full sentence/explanations in order to be able to answer, they post it the next minute. Of course I haven't been there for a few weeks, so maybe things have dramatically changed... I'm a bit scared now!!


----------



## gotitadeleche

geve said:


> No, Hakro explicitly said that he wants the rules to be read.  If I may add something: read and understood.
> 
> So, yes, I've had an idea during the night... I thought again about the test Hakro suggested in his first post, which had IMO the right intent: something light - possibly even fun - to teach newbies the ropes.
> But instead of rewarding those who read it, maybe we should make it compulsory...
> 
> Why not make this "soft education" part of the registering process?
> 
> No, not like the extensive text in a very little window below which you need to tick "I have read, and agree to abide by the WordReference Forums rules" - something that would come on top of that.
> We could define the few basic principles, out of the extended list of rules and guidelines, that 1) are most frequently not respected by newbies, 2) do the most harm to the general smoothness of the forums when they're not respected. Mods, what do you find yourself wasting your time at?



geve, this is a great idea   I like it!


----------



## geve

gotitadeleche said:


> geve, this is a great idea  I like it!


I appreciate but really it's important to note that *it's a team work!* (see my post above)


----------



## roxcyn

I LOVE greve's idea.  It basically is taking everything that most people said and adding it to the registration process.  I would vote to do something like that for the forum.


----------



## Alicky

geve said:


> I appreciate but really it's important to note that *it's a team work!* (see my post above)


 
Ok partner. You handle the ideas, I'll handle the money  $$$.

Day to day I become more and more convinced it should be done.
Does anyone know if "The Test" (capitalized please) or more of those Context-or-suffer-our-wrath stickies are going to be put in practice?


----------



## Nunty

Alicky said:


> [...]Does anyone know if "The Test" (capitalized please) or more of those Context-or-suffer-our-wrath stickies are going to be put in practice?


I recently learned of an Art College speciality called "Contextual Practice". Maybe we should have a forum of that name to which would be banished the worst offenders for a period of rehabilitation? Sort of a WRF Reformatory?

Well, maybe not. 

I like the soft education registration process in theory, but in practice, I don't think it would have any real impact. Sorry, but I think that people would just blindly click their way through the process, while cursing the WRF admin for making the registration so "complicated".


----------



## fenixpollo

Nun-Translator said:


> Sorry, but I think that people would just blindly click their way through the process, while cursing the WRF admin for making the registration so "complicated".


 This would be consistent with their current behavior, which is to blindly click their way through the current (short) registration process, skipping over the rules, while cursing the WRF admin for having so many rules.


----------



## Nunty

fenixpollo said:


> This would be consistent with their current behavior, which is to blindly click their way through the current (short) registration process, skipping over the rules, while cursing the WRF admin for having so many rules.



I think most people just click their way to where they want to go without reading too much along the way. When I download or register something, I usually read skim the first paragraph of the EULA and then click "I agree". For all I know I've sold my soul to the devil. 

I wish I were a better person, but I didn't read the rules before I registered (though I have read them since), and I don't think I've done anything too seriously annoying since I've been here. (Sit down and be quiet, you in the cheap seats in the back!) As has been said several times already in this thread, common sense and good manners pretty much cover it all. If someone lacks one or both of these, we're not going to correct that in the registration process, no matter how much we want to.

This is a nice, cathartic thread. We can all vent as much as we want about the newbies who don't or won't read the rules, and that is not really a negative thing. It is one way of creating... what's the word in English? I want to say it's מתגבש, something like building a group identity. Nothing wrong with that.

Geve, I really do like your idea, and I think it might work with some people, but I think those are the ones who have common sense and good manners anyway. Your idea is good; it's just the people-factor that messes it up.

Kind of like the Middle East Peace Process.


----------



## LV4-26

Nun-Translator said:


> I think most people just click their way to where they want to go without reading too much along the way. When I download or register something, I usually read skim the first paragraph of the EULA and then click "I agree". For all I know I've sold my soul to the devil.


To be totally honest that's what I usually do, and that's what I did when I registered here. It wasn't before the 20th post or so that I started to read a portion of the rules. I assumed the rules were the same as in all other forums i.e. based on common sense.


----------



## Etcetera

LV4-26 said:


> To be totally honest that's what I usually do, and that's what I did when I registered here. It wasn't before the 20th post or so that I started to read a portion of the rules. I assumed the rules were the same as in all other forums i.e. based on common sense.


Count me in.
When I first came to WR Forums, I only participated in already existing thread. Only on my third day here, did I dare to open a thread of my own. This one.
I remember that I was rather afraid that this thread would be against some rule, so I went I read all the rules of the English Only Forum to make sure I wouldn't violate any. And I re-read the rules from time to time... just because I like WR and I don't want to be banned.


----------



## Jana337

LV4-26 said:


> I assumed the rules were the same as in all other forums i.e. based on common sense.


What a ridiculous assumption.   

Jana


----------



## geve

Jana337 said:


> LV4-26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be totally honest that's what I usually do, and that's what I did when I registered here. It wasn't before the 20th post or so that I started to read a portion of the rules. I assumed the rules were the same as in all other forums i.e. based on common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous assumption.
> 
> Jana
Click to expand...

I agree that most rules come from common sense; nonetheless, at one point people here felt the need to write them down and post them up on the forum's wall. It must mean that some people could use a reminder. 



Nun-Translator said:


> I think most people just click their way to where they want to go without reading too much along the way. When I download or register something, I usually read skim the first paragraph of the EULA and then click "I agree". For all I know I've sold my soul to the devil.


My point exactly, Nun-T! 
I believe that a certain (rather large) amount of rules is required on this forum, as on every forum. These rules must appear somewhere, even if people skim through them (which I certainly did too before posting my very first silly comment on this forum).
And I believe that a certain (smaller) number of rules is really fundamental to this specific forum's activity. They may seem obvious to us, but let's not have a FGMO conversation here  (I mentioned the "For Good Members Only" concept in this post).

Sometimes when posting a reply I also kindly mention and explain one of these obvious rules to a junior member, who can be a very young learner, or someone not very familiar with the forum media, or someone that hasn't fully awaken yet... Most of the times one time is enough and they're glad they're being told because they had not thought of it and really don't mean to do anything "wrong". 
This is why I thought that it could help to find a way to highlight a specific limited set of rules (which I find are "efficiency tips" really more than rules) at the beginning of the process of becoming a member here.


----------



## fenixpollo

Jana337 said:


> What a ridiculous assumption.


 It's only ridiculous from the point of view of someone like yourself, who is very familiar with this forum as well as others. From the point of view of someone who occasionally visits one or two forums (both of which use the same vB interface), it might be a more logical assumption.  Incorrect, but hardly ridiculous.  We have to be aware of that and accept it, so that we can help liberate those people from their assumptions.


----------



## cuchuflete

Confession time:  I haven't read the rules top to bottom since  the mod team proofread them for publication.  I consult them once in a while, so I can copy an item into a closed thread or a PM.

The ones that matter the most to me, and which well over 95% of foreros seem to know, whether or not they have ever read them, are few and simple:

1- Be nice!  Argue issues, not personalities.  
2- Be helpful, especially to newbies.
3. Context and background and full sample sentences are key to understanding a question. Badly understood questions yield poor answers, and waste everyone's time.  
4- Don't do anything promotional, whether in texts, avatars, signatures or PMs.

The rest are just more detail about ways to achieve what is stated in the Forum Guidelines, which is a kind of mission statment.  It's useful detail, and there is nothing wrong with citing it when needed.  However, if the large majority of us continue to collaborate in a serious and friendly way, the people who need the longer list will remain a very small minority.  And they are not bad people!  They just need a touch of guidance. 

This is one of the most tightly regulated and moderated forums around. Yet only a tiny fraction of all foreros every have any contact with that regulation.  They bring good manners and common sense with them, and that's generally adequate.
Copyright limits and the exclusion of chatspeak are enforced pretty consistently.  That's different from many other forums.  
Beyond that, and the "no promotion" stance, this forum operates much like others that attract serious students and teachers.  

Sometimes I think that those who complain about an excess of rules are just blowing off steam, because it's no fun to be reminded of a rule, especially in public.  I received some highly insulting PMs recently from a forero who had had three of seventy-some posts deleted for being off-topic.  About a month ago another member jumped ugly when an effort to have others do that person's homework was thwarted.  I can survive an average of two or three insults a month, from nearly 15 thousand active colleagues. 

Abrazos a repartir,
cuchu


----------



## mrg

Hi all,

You can see I'm very young here, and so far I've been sticking closely to the IT-EN forum, so my experience is limited in that way as well.  Naturally I bow to the rest of you on how big of a problem bad behavior is in the forums.  BUT ...

Please know that since before I registered I have been telling all the language students I know about the wonders of WR.  Naturally I find the basic set-up -- with discussion links attached to the dictionary entries -- supremely useful.  But I have also been consistently impressed with the collaborative and serious tone of discussion.  In the IT-EN forum it seems that most every participant wants to learn and has a disciplined approach to doing so (in the forum anyway, I'm sure there are those like me who need to study more!).  Those who offer assistance also seem dedicated to preserving the friendly and instructive atmosphere here.

So for whatever it's worth, thanks a million to the moderators and responsible members for making this such a valuable resource for language learners.


----------



## elroy

Thank you for your kind words, MRG, and I'm happy the forum has proved so beneficial and useful to you.

It's comments like yours that show us our work is not in vain.


----------



## geve

I thought that this information from another thread might interest the participants of this thread:



piripi said:


> _[...] _If we can communicate the top 3 or 4 rules before someone opens a new thread, we may be able to cut down on the number of posts that have no context or are entitled “help!” (my personal pet peeve  ).
> 
> How about having a brief message appear when a new thread is being opened? _[...]_





cuchuflete said:


> *You will be happy to know that Mike Kellogg is working on some things that will help guide people in this direction.*


----------



## Coyoacan

*If I had seen a test*, or something of the like, as described by Hakro when I first signed up to WR, I would've liked that.  If it is just integrated and is part of your signing up, I don't see a problem -whether logistical or participatorial- with it.   And why would I've liked to be "forced" into a test or quick look up at the posting rules? Because it would've definitely helped me with questions and mistakes that I had and committed, and for which I only found answers 'til later as I read and read and read...  
If you guys implement the "test" or whatever at signup time, I'm sure a good chunk of the "undesired" would be neutralized (if not eliminated) and life could carry on in perfect peace at WR...

...Not sure about the rewarding spots, or brownie points, or whatever you wanna call it points and stuff... Just send it by default to new foreros, whether as a pop-up-in-their-face while registering that you can't get rid off until you scrolled down and read and tacked that you understood and hit ok, or perhaps a fill-in-the-gaps-while-registering, or even an emailed straight-forward list of do's & dont's, or a welcome-warning letter by email!! Don't know, but it really should not be _*that*_ difficult.

More mods...  Not a bad idea.  But will this truly help manage the conundrum that this thing is?  How can more mods be appointed, more rapidly and with full confidence thay are the WR Police needed? Who would want to tackle the recruitment of such mods? How many mods are gonna be enough? And once they bare their new stars and display their authority and regalia, these marshall-mods:  _when_ and _how_ do they jump into action for this purpose?  And will they suffice?

Regards,


----------

