# Only Dutch, or Dutch and English



## louisbroeh

I am considering picking up Dutch within the next year as my third language, but I was wondering how useful it really is? For example, in Sweden, the majority of the people there also speak English, so learning Swedish would kind of be a waste of time, for lack of better words. 

I was wondering if the case is the same in the Netherlands and Belgium. I speak French along with English. Is it really necessary to speak Dutch to live in the Netherlands or the Flemish part of Belgium?

Sorry if this comes across as offensive to any Dutch speakers... I am not trying to denounce your language to English or French, but I was just wanted to know how necessary it is to know the language. 

Thanks et Merci, 

Louis


----------



## Silv86

Hello

I have asked for a scholarship this year and the next Februar I'am going to travel to Belgium to stay there, in the Flemish part, for five or six months.

A friend of mine is there and had told me everybody speaks perfect English and you don't need to know Dutch. You don't need neither French, cos' there are political interests and in the Flemish part of Belgium French is not exactly welcome. 

As far as I know, Dutch is not necessary but it is obvious that it is the oficial language of this part of Belgium, and it is important there.

Moreover, learning minoritaries languages is very gratifying. I'm looking forwart to start de Dutch course 



*I'm sorry for any mistake in my grammar, I'm not used to writing in English


----------



## Frank06

Hi,

Of course, it all depends on what you're planning to do.
But I think it is always (and probably obviously) a good idea to know at least some basic phrases. Locals will normally react in a more positive way if you show that you're at least doing a basic effort to speak the local language. Human, all too human.

On the other hand, as a native speaker of (American) English, you'll have a difficult time learning Dutch because probably a lot of people will grab the occasion to speak English with a native speaker. Human, all too human.

On yet another hand, I have the impression that the general attitude towards people who live in Flanders for a long time and who don't know Dutch at all, is getting more and more negative.

What English in Flanders is concerend: It might be anecdotal, but I do know a few native speakers of English who are getting a bit fed up with the mistakes in English made by the locals. One told me it's very tiring to _constantly_ have to guess what the heck they are trying to say exactly . [Don't think bad of her, she's a very nice person (who's learning Dutch pretty fast, by the way) with very normal limits.]
Don't overestimate the level of English in Flanders. Don't think that over here (maybe contrary to Sweden? ;-) 'all/most' people here speak 'perfect' English. That's a myth. (And this post is an illustration of it).

It's also a vivid topic in my classes, and I learned that quite a lot of my English and French speaking students* (natives and non-natives) have less positive experiences in Flanders (or at least in Antwerp) at certain occasions. Maybe it's anecdotal, but I already had to help out a lot of people who were fluent in either French or English at certain occasions.

For example, there is a growing _tendency_ to communicate in Dutch and in  Dutch only at the municipal houses. Maybe that's only towards non-native speakers of _American_ or _British_ English. Quite a few Nigerian students, for example, don't even have to think about speaking English there. They'll be answered back in Dutch most of the time. And yes, it probably has more to do with the colour of their skin than with the 'colour' of their English. Sad, but true... All 'official' letters, documents etc. are in Dutch. So you'll depend upon native speakers of Dutch to help you out with that (too).
In short: without knowing Dutch, you'll have to depend upon natives willing to help you out with, how can I say, "official documents and communication". Not only in the beginning, when you just arrived here, but for the rest of your stay/life in Flanders.

I heard about similar experiences involving police agents, public transport, finding a job, etc. etc. etc. Even people who hope to find a job as an English teacher (and can you think of anything better than having a (qualified) native speaker as your language teacher) are supposed to do an exam in Dutch!




> Sorry if this comes across as offensive to any Dutch speakers... I am not trying to denounce your language to English or French, but I was just wanted to know how necessary it is to know the language.


No offence taken .
Maybe my post and experiences (in the class room and in 'real life') are a tad too grim, but I think that without knowing Dutch in Flanders, it could be you who'll get offended.

I'll end the way I started: Of course, it all depends on what you're planning to do. But you speak English and French, so if you learn Dutch, life can be 
much easier over here.

Groetjes,

Frank

* I should add that my students are (adult) immigrants from all over the world who (have to) learn Dutch because they want to live (and work), and not 'student students' who come to study here at a university or 'hogeschool' for a limited period.


----------



## Silv86

Thank you for the information, Frank


----------



## louisbroeh

Yes! wow. Thank you for that very comprehensive response. I can imagine that would be hard, trying to decode what people are saying in "Dinglish." ;D

Thank you, thank you.


----------



## yannalan

I am French (Breton), I went three times on vacation in the Netherlands and once in Flanders (Haspengouw), and I tried to learn some basic Dutch to be able to live there some weeks and I must say it is much funnier to speak a bit and understand the local language.
People seem surprised and pleased to see French people speaking their language. Some speak French when they see we do not understand, but not so often.
I think it is quite normal for a foreigner to learn the local language whan he intends to stay for one year.


----------



## Mimi2005

In the Netherlands most people speak English and many speak it very well. When a foreigner tries to speak some sentences in Dutch we're always very flattered, but mostly we continue in English. 
A good friend of mine, from England, who lives in Holland for some time now, often complains to me that it is difficult for him to learn Dutch from native speakers, because as soon as someone hears he's from England everyone stops talking Dutch and talks English with him.

The language situation in the Netherlands is therefor very different from the situation in Flanders, where there are more, understandable complications about not speaking (or not wanting to?) Dutch.

In the Netherlands one can speak English at the municipality, also to police officers etc.
But learn a few words anyway, we are always so charmed by that


----------



## yannalan

I just told them don't speak any English......


----------



## Mimi2005

In Flanders OK, but in the Netherlands ? The Dutch want to stay sharp too


----------



## Ayazid

Mimi2005 said:


> In Flanders OK, but in the Netherlands ? The Dutch want to stay sharp too



Does this habit to use English with foreigners aply to all foreigners or just to English native speakers and other foreigners who speak this language well? I mean, there must be certainly a lot of people in Netherlands and Flanders whose English is certainly not better than their Dutch, especially various immigrants from "third world" countries. Do Dutch people use English with them just because they are foreigners?


----------



## Mimi2005

For Dutch people it is just as easy to speak German as English. Even people who haven't really learned German can still manage in German, because the language is so close. We speak German mostly with people from the eastern parts of Europe, because they mostly speak German themselves.

With other foreigners we mostly speak English.
French is possible, but the knowledge is not widespread and it is certainly not spoken as well as in Flanders. Many immigrants from Africa speak French well, so that's a bit difficult.

And also: we just wait to see in which language we are adressed to.


----------



## Andrealine

Ayazid, most Dutch switch to English when they hear or presume someone is a native speaker. They usually don't, or don't try to, speak English with, for example, Turkish people who are not fluent in Dutch. Instead, a lot of Dutch expect the Turkish or Moroccon people to speak Dutch fluently when they live here. When a native English speaker lives in Holland, he or she will be spoken English too at first (we like to practise  ) but after a while, it is really appreciated (generally speaking) if he or she makes an effort in speaking Dutch. So there's a difference really, but I won't go into politics here. 

I don't agree with Mimi that for Dutch people it is just as easy to speak German as English. I think German is easy to understand for many Dutch people because it resembles Dutch, but to speak it is a different matter. I can understand German quite well, but speak it far from fluently. Actually, I have a German friend, but we communicate in English!


----------



## George French

I would challenge that *most* Dutch switch easily to English.

I have contact with a wide variety of Dutch nationals. Some Dutch speak impecable English, but not that many. Many think they can, but if I want to be sure of which way up is, I speak Dutch. They may not understand me but I can understand them.

GF...


----------



## Mimi2005

Actually the question that started this topic was not whether the (most or many) Dutch speak impeccable English or not, but if it was necessary for an English speaker to learn Dutch, if that was worth the effort. If you could be in the Netherlands and have a conversation in English with the native speakers. My answer to that was: you don’t need to learn the language (however much we would like the effort ).
And really, I have to reiterate: to my mind it is the same situation for German.


----------



## yannalan

I don't really understand how can somebody live in a foreign country without any knowledge of the official language....
We have this problem in France with some British citizens, who think they just have to speak english to be understood.
Happily most of them understand.


----------



## Mimi2005

I have to agree with you, Yannalan. It all depends on how you long one is planning to stay in the country. There's a big difference of course just being a tourist or someone who actually wants to settle. If you are really wanting to stay, it becomes insulting on the long run not to learn the language.


----------



## Grosvenor1

I am in the Netherlands at the moment. I think you can probably get by in a big city with just English, though I would still try to learn some Dutch, especially if you plan to be there a long time. They may be a minority, but I have encountered Dutch speakers who speak no English, even in Amsterdam. 

I do not know about _Vlaanderen_ but it is possible there is more social resistance to non-Dutch speakers there than in the Netherlands, because of the separatist and Belgian language-as-identity thing.


----------



## Pseudolientje

I just wanted to react to "French is not exactly welcome in the Flemish part". I am from the Flemish part in Belgium and indeed, we have political issues around the language (and it is about more than just the language) , but it is mainly the older generations that hold a grudge (that is, if they still do). The younger generations didn't go through the problems (when French was still considered to be 'more important' etc..) themselves. So, don't be afraid to use French!


----------



## alisonp

Is this article http://abcnews.go.com/International/WireStory?id=5362537&page=1 exaggerating the issue, then?  I'd certainly understood that there was resistance to speaking French to people in Flanders.

Either way, if I were going to live in a country for any length of time, I'd try and learn something of the language, at least.  I think people always appreciate it when others make an effort (especially when native English-speakers have such a poor reputation with foreign languages).


----------



## Reemster

Although I'm not from Flanders but from neighbouring country Holland, I can't imagine that they'd treat foreigners that have absolutely nothing to do with the language issues in a non decent manner.
It never hurts to learn the basics if you're going to be in a country for some time though. I can't imagine not speaking the local language when living in a country. You miss out on many things.


----------



## Frank06

*Hi,*


alisonp said:


> Is this article exaggerating the issue, then? I'd certainly understood that there was resistance to speaking French to people in Flanders.


*I think this article deals with completely different issues, viz. the political and economic problems between Wallonia and Flanders and I suggest that we don`t start about that in this threat.

Groetjes,

Frank
Moderator Dutch Language Forum*


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


Frank06 said:


> For example, there is a growing _tendency_ [in Flanders] to communicate in Dutch and in Dutch only at the municipal houses.


Just an illustration: Today I came across following article "Zaventem vraagt anderstaligen zich met tolk aan te bieden". 
In short: people who live in Zaventem (a 'Flemish' town near Brussels) and who don't speak Dutch need to get an interpreter themselves.

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Arrius

If an anglophone wishes to practise his Dutch (or whatever the local language may be), he should just learn the words for "I don't speak English (Ik spreek geen Engels)", and add, "I am Latvian/ Esthonian/ Georgian/from the Balkans", or mention some other suitable place whose language they are not likely to know. When I was camping in Lisbon and wished to improve my Portuguese, I found the little Finnish flag provided by the Finnish manufacturers on my bell tent helped to stop anybody from practising their English on me.


----------



## Svenshinhan

You'll get by in the Netherlands if you know only English, but you have to talk to the right people. Learning Dutch can be a really great boon, but it's not needed if you're, say, a foreign student at any of the universities trying to get a Master's degree. Many people like to speak English. But there are also many people who don't.

Learning Dutch can be easy around some people, and difficult around others. I'm one of those people who prefer English to Dutch and will grab any opportunity to speak English. Using the same language every day is normal for some people, but if you're like me it's plain boring and annoying. But I'm somewhat more extreme in that regard than most people.

Then there are those who expect people to learn Dutch if they're going to stay here (and I agree on that part if people move here in order to live here).

Generally, people with a high proficiency in English won't mind speaking English occasionally (and some will actually prefer it over Dutch if for no other reason than the change of pace) and those with lower proficiency will struggle with English and prefer to stick with Dutch (using it only when necessary). It's just a generalization, but that's my personal experience as a student of English Language and Culture at the University of Utrecht.


----------



## Cdehaan

Hi Louis,
It would be lovely and widely appreciated if you would learn our lovely language. 

If you just come for a holiday : I wouldn't bother, because you will be able to communicate in English. If you are going to live in the Netherlands or Flanders you will be more easily accepted when you speak the language. There are many foreigners in the main cities, so if you work for an english company and you have foreign friends to hang out with, you can survive too, however just in the shops etc it is appreciated when you know some words. 
By the way : There are TV series in English in the Netherlands (unlike in Germany and France where everything is dubbed) and movies in the cinema are also in the original language. 

If you want some more information you can send a personal message.


----------



## Arrius

*There are TV series in English in the Netherlands* *Cdehaan*
What's more the English-language films and shows have subtitles in Dutch (at least they used to when I was there) from which those who wish to learn the language can pick up quite a lot.


----------



## Grytolle

Another tip! A good idea if you go live in a Dutch speaking country, is to learn the spoken informal variant of the country you live in^^


----------



## alisonp

Cdehaan said:


> By the way : There are TV series in English in the Netherlands (unlike in Germany and France where everything is dubbed) and movies in the cinema are also in the original language.


That would explain why the TV DVD series I bought had Dutch subtitles but not dubbing, then.  And perhaps also why the Dutch speak such good English?


----------



## Cdehaan

alisonp said:


> That would explain why the TV DVD series I bought had Dutch subtitles but not dubbing, then.  And perhaps also why the Dutch speak such good English?



Perhaps, yes! I agree with the other person that it is a good learning tool.
Many Dutch TV shows have also Dutch subtitles when you search in teletext.


----------



## Frank06

*Hi,*

*We're drifting away from the main topic of this thread. I am closing this thread.*

*Groetjes,*

*Frank*
*Moderator DF*


----------

