# I don’t like to play volleyball.



## marcogaiotto

Ich mag (nicht) Volleyball (nicht) spielen.

Hello! Where am I supposed to put in "nicht" correctly from a grammar point of view? Thank you so much!


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## Kajjo

_ Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen. _

Meistens steht das "nicht" direkt vor dem Element, das verneint wird.

_Ich mag nicht spielen.
Ich bin nicht neugierig.
Das ist nicht richtig.
Ich habe nicht dich, sondern sie gefragt._

In deinem Satz wird "Volleyball spielen" als Einheit aufgefasst.


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## berndf

marcogaiotto said:


> Ich mag (nicht) Volleyball (nicht) spielen.
> 
> Hello! Where am I supposed to put in "nicht" correctly from a grammar point of view? Thank you so much!


As said before,  _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen_ is the correct word order. That being said, _Ich mag Volleyball nicht spielen_ would also be a possible sentence but it would meaning something different, which is not something you would very likely want to express and therefore sounds odd. It would mean that you positively enjoy it not playing volley ball rather than simply not enjoying playing it.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen_ is the correct word order.


How would  _Ich mag keinen Volleyball spielen _sound? Semantically as  ''ich will/möchte keinen V. spielen'' or as ''ich mag (das)  Kein-Volleyball-Spielen''?


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## berndf

It means essentially the same. I feel a small difference in focus, though: _Ich mag kein Volleyball spielen_ indicates that you would rather play something else while_ Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen indicates_ that you would rather do something else or do nothing.


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## manfy

bearded said:


> How would  _Ich mag *keinen *Volleyball spielen _sound?


This sounds decidedly odd to me.
We do say "der Volleyball", but when we say "Spielen wir Volleyball?", Volleyball describes the game as a concept, not the physical ball itself; therefore it becomes "das Volleyball". So, I'd only say "Ich mag *kein *Volleyball spielen." This also fits better to the nominalized verb phrase "Ich mag das *Volleyballspielen *eigentlich gar nicht." (because of "das Spielen")


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## Kajjo

I feel, that we often focus too much on the non-native constructions the thread openers suggests. In this case, the suggested phrasing is quite weird anyway and I doubt that many natives would phrase it that way with "mögen". I certainly never would. We can correct the grammar of such sentences, but we should also provide really idiomatic alternatives.

I would say as general statement about my usual relation to volleyball:

_Ich spiele gerne Volleyball. = I like to play volleyball.
Ich spiele nicht gerne Volleyball. = I don't like to play volleyball._

That is idiomatic and actually used by most people, isn't it? No "mögen" is used here usually!

If it is just about the actual moment, but in general you might play:

_Nein, ich habe (echt) keine Lust, jetzt Volleyball zu spielen. 
Nein, ich will nicht Volleyball spielen. Ich gehe lieber schwimmen._

Other statements:

_Ich spiele nie Volleyball. = I never play volleyball.
Ich spiele oft Volleyball. = I often play volleyball._


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## berndf

manfy said:


> So, I'd only say "Ich mag *kein *Volleyball spielen."


Yes absolutely. I had ignored that issue in my response. _Keinen _sounds positively weird. It is _das Volleyball Spielen _you don't like and not _den Volleyball_.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> In this case, the suggested phrasing is quite weird anyway


I can't find anything wrong or weird with the sentence. It is probably a construction you would more likely hear in the sourth than in the north but it is definitely idiomatic.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> It is _das Volleyball Spielen _you don't like


Then I suppose it should be written ''das Volleyball-Spielen'', shouldn't it?


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## berndf

Maybe. But it isn't. Language is not always consistent.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> But it isn't.


  

“kein Volleyball spielen” looks horrendously wrong to me.  Would careful writers really write it that way?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Would *careful *writers really write it that way?



I wonder if the question really arises. The sentence sounds very laid back and colloquial to me and I would suppose the only context where would really use it in writing is in chats.

Apart from that, infinitives (or infinitive phrases) are functionally always neuter nouns (or noun phrases), irrespective of whether they are capitalized or not; much like participles are functionally always adjectives (which may then in turn be adverbialized or nominalized). The difference between the two spellings is only whether it is also lexically analysed as a noun.


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## διαφορετικός

elroy said:


> “kein Volleyball spielen” looks horrendously wrong to me. Would careful writers really write it that way?


"Volleyball" (the game, not the ball) cannot appear in different quantities ("viel Volleyball" / "wenig Volleyball" / "ein Volleyball"). I think this is a sufficient reason to exclude the combination with "kein".


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## bearded

διαφορετικός said:


> a sufficient reason to exclude the combination with "kein".


Would you exclude it even if/when 'kein' refers to the (nominalized) infinitive 'Spielen'? _Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen. _Kein solches Spiel...
Elroy's post contains a quotation of berndf's phrase ('Volleyball Spielen'  without hyphen).
Vgl.


berndf said:


> It is _das Volleyball Spielen _you don't like


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> Would you exclude it even if/when 'kein' refers to the (nominalized) infinitive 'Spielen'? _Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen. _Kein solches Spiel...


In this case, I would say/ write "Ich mag Volleyball nicht."

_Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen. _doesn't sound at all  natural to me.

As soon as there's a verb, I'd use "gern(e)", see:


Kajjo said:


> _Ich spiele gerne Volleyball. = I like to play volleyball.
> Ich spiele nicht gerne Volleyball. = I don't like to play volleyball._


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> In this case, I would say/ write "Ich mag Volleyball nicht."
> 
> _Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen. _doesn't sound at all natural to me.
> 
> As soon as there's a verb, I'd use "gern(e)", see:


I would to go back to the original sentence. To me
1. _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen._
2. _Ich spiele nicht gerne Volleyball._
are not interchangeable and whether I would say one or the other would depend on what I wanted to say. 1. means to me that I am not in a mood for playing right now and 2. that I generally dislike the activity.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> what I wanted to say. 1. means to me that I am not in a mood for playing right now


I see your point, but I would never use this sentence in that meaning. I would probably say:

_Ne, ich habe jetzt echt keine Lust auf Volleyball.
Nein, ich will jetzt nicht Volleyball spielen. Lass mich in Ruhe!_

"Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen." is non-idiomatic for me. Who would really say that?


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## berndf

This very similar sentence I would definitely say: _Nee, ich mag [jetzt] nicht raus gehen_, e.g., because it rains.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> "Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen." is non-idiomatic for me.


I wouldn't say "non-idiomatic" but for me it's children's langage.


berndf said:


> I would definitely say: _Nee, ich mag [jetzt] nicht raus gehen_,



Once more:


JClaudeK said:


> As soon as there's a verb, I'd use "gern(e)"


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## bearded

berndf said:


> _Nee, ich mag [jetzt] nicht raus gehen_


In this example I perceive 'mag' as a modal verb - as if it were 'will/möchte' , and not in the sense of _like. _Am I mistaken?


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Once more:


But it means something completely different.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> But it means something completely different.


Yes, you're right but for me
being  not in a mood for doing sth. => keine Lust haben, etw. zu tun

_ich mag [jetzt] nicht_ [spielen, .....] - children's langage


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> n this example I perceive 'mag' as a modal verb - as if it were 'will/möchte' , and not in the sense of _like. _Am I mistaken?


You're right.  

_ich mag [jetzt] nicht_ [spielen, .....] - children's langage for _ich möchte/ will [jetzt] nicht / habe keine Lust zu ......._


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Yes, you're right but for me
> being  not in a mood for doing sth. => keine Lust haben, etw. zu tun
> 
> _ich mag [jetzt] nicht_ [spielen, .....] - children's langage


So you would prefer _Ich habe [jetzt] keine Lust Volleyball zu spielen_ instead of _Ich mag [jetzt] nicht Volleyball spielen_. Is that correct?


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## JClaudeK

JClaudeK said:


> _ich mag [jetzt] nicht_ [spielen, .....] - children's langage for _ich möchte/ will [jetzt] nicht / habe keine Lust zu ......._


Cf.:


> * „Lust“*
> Wenn _mögen_ mit der Bedeutung "Wunsch" im Indikativ verwendet wird, drückt es eher _Lust haben, gerne tun _aus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Ich mag gern fernsehen.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  =[/TD][TD valign="top"]Ich liebe es fernzusehen.[/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Sie mag nicht darüber reden.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  =[/TD][TD valign="top"]Sie hat keine Lust, darüber zu reden.[/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Er mochte keinen Fisch essen.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  =[/TD][TD valign="top"]Er hatte keine Lust, Fisch zu essen.[/TD]
> 
> Diese Verwendung von _mögen_ kommt eher selten vor.





> *mögen als Vollverb*
> _mögen_ kann auch als Vollverb verwendet werden:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Ich mag Erdbeereis.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  = [/TD][TD valign="top"]Ich esse gern Erdbeereis.[/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Wir mögen kein Bier.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  = [/TD][TD valign="top"]Bier schmeckt uns nicht.[/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Er mochte sie sehr.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  = [/TD][TD valign="top"]Er hatte sie sehr gern.[/TD]
> 
> [TD valign="top"]Sie möchte, dass wir sie besuchen.[/TD][TD valign="top"]  = [/TD][TD valign="top"]Sie wünscht, dass wir sie besuchen.[/TD]


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## berndf

bearded said:


> In this example I perceive 'mag' as a modal verb - as if it were 'will/möchte' , and not in the sense of _like. _Am I mistaken?


"Modal verb" only means that it is tied to a bare infinitive and is a purely syntactic category. I do not see any semantic implications.


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> In this example I perceive 'mag' as a modal verb


I think that beared means "Vollverb".
See #26


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## bearded

berndf said:


> I do not see any semantic implications.


Your example is ''ich mag jetzt nicht rausgehen/raus gehen''.  Here does 'mag nicht' for you mean 'möchte nicht' or 'I don't like ..'? The latter would be a 'Vollverb'.


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> and not in the sense of _like._


It means "like" together with a *noun:* e.g. _Ich mag Erdbeereis. _


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## bearded

JClaudeK said:


> It means "like" together with a *noun:* e.g. _Ich mag Erdbeereis. _


Well, it's the low-case spelling (rausgehen) that confuses me - should 'mag' be a Vollverb. Then, if  'rausgehen' is not nominalized, 'mag' functions as a modal verb (=ich möchte etwas tun..). I'm not sure whether berndf agrees..


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## berndf

bearded said:


> Here does 'mag nicht' for you mean 'möchte nicht' or 'I don't like ..'?


Where is the difference?
_Ich mag/möchte [jetzt] nicht raus gehen ~ I don't like to go out [now]_.
The difference is purely that German uses the bare and English the full infinitive. Semantically, I see no difference.


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## berndf

bearded said:


> 'mag nicht' for you mean 'möchte nicht'


I often find _möchte _instead of _mag _awkwardly over-polite. Inversely, this might be the reason why @JClaudeK finds_ mag_ instead of_ möchte_ child talk.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> Where is the difference?
> _Ich mag/möchte [jetzt] nicht raus gehen ~ I don't like to go out [now]_.
> The difference is purely that German uses the bare and English the full infinitive. Semantically, I see no difference.


For practical purposes there is no difference. The only difficulty (for me) is that I was taught not to use 'mögen' in the present tense with a subsequent infinitive - as if it were 'möchte' (modal usage).  So it's both a syntactic and an orthographic/spelling issue.
Ich möchte gehen 
ich mag gehen
ich möchte nicht 'rausgehen
ich mag nicht 'rausgehen  (das Rausgehen..).
I'm unfortunately still basing upon old grammar rules, and as soon as I see (or think that I'm detecting) anything that diverges from those, I ask questions...


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## berndf

Grammatically, the only difference between _mag _and _möchte _is that the former is present indicative and the latter past subjunctive. I wouldn't scratch my head over the syntax of these sentences.

The past subjunctive is just tied to a certain meaning and is therefore often regarded as verb in its own right, while the indicative has a wider range of meanings, including those where the past subjunctive would be possible as well, just less polite.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> the indicative has a wider range of meanings, including those where the past subjunctive would be possible as well, just less polite.


Würdest Du wirklich sagen ''Ich mag jetzt essen / er ist müde und mag schlafen''?


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## berndf

I said I *often *find _möchte _instead of _mag _awkwardly over-polite. I didn't say *always*. Sometimes _möchte _just sounds more natural to me as well. Difficult to describe what makes the difference. And it obviously differs from native speaker to native speaker.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> I *often *find _möchte _instead of _mag _awkwardly over-polite.



IMO, "möchte" doesn't express any more  "politeness", and even less "over-politeness".

I fully agree with this:


> _Mögen_ is used to express general preferences, as in “I like something”, e.g.
> Ich mag Fußball.
> Ich mag Kaffee.
> _*Ich möchte*_* is used when talking about wishes:* I would like something (or would like to do something). For example,
> Ich möchte Rad fahren.
> Ich möchte eine Tasse Kaffee.
> So, to illustrate the difference between _mag_ and _möchte_, _Möchtest du ein Kilo Bananen?_ asks if you’d like a kilo of bananas; _Magst du Bananen?_ is a question about your general attitude towards bananas.
> Mögen and möchten


And this


> *Bemerkungen zur Form des Konjunktivs II möchte *
> 1. Die Form des Modalverbs im Konjunktiv II drückt einen Wunsch in der Gegenwart und in der Realität aus, d.h.* seiner Funktion nach ist möchte dem Indikativ Präsens gleichzusetzen.
> 
> Bemerkungen zu mögen*
> 1. *mögen* wird meistens als Vollverb verwendet. Es wird mit einem Akkusativobjelt verbunden, das eine Person oder Nicht-Person sein kann. Die ausgedrückte Bedeutung ist wie erwähnt an etwas oder jemandem Gefallen finden.





bearded said:


> I'm unfortunately still basing upon old grammar rules,


Not so old ...... .


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## JClaudeK

P.S. (Fortsetzung zu "*Das Modalverb mögen*")



> 2. Nur selten wird *mögen* mit einem Infinitiv verbunden, in diesem Fall wird der Ausdruck _*etwas gern tun*_ bevorzugt.
> In verneinten Sätzen wird eine Abneigung ausgedrückt.
> 3. *Sehr selten** drückt *mögen* die Bedeutung eines Wunsches aus. Das kommt dann fast nur in verneinten Sätzen oder Fragesätzen vor.


***Von mir hervorgehoben



Conclusion:


marcogaiotto said:


> Ich mag (nicht) Volleyball (nicht) spielen.


*Better: *
Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> The past subjunctive is just tied to a certain meaning and is therefore often regarded as verb in its own right, while the indicative has a wider range of meanings, including those where the past subjunctive would be possible as well, just less polite.


Yes, less polite than "*Ich will*", that's for sure.


> 3. Das Modalverb *wollen* drückt ebenfalls einen Wunsch aus, der aber in der Gegenwart im Vergleich zu _*möchte*_ stärker ist und nicht so höflich.
> 
> 
> 
> _Beispiele_Itensität des WunschesIch möchte dich sprechen.schwachIch will dich sprechen.stark


That's not about "ich mag" vs "ich möchte", but "ich will" vs "ich möchte" - just normal politeness.



bearded said:


> Würdest Du wirklich sagen ''Ich mag jetzt essen / er ist müde und mag schlafen''?


No, I wouldn't.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> IMO, "möchte" doesn't express any more "politeness", and even less "over-politeness".


Of course it does. It has just in some context become so normal that people inversely frown upon the indicative, like you when you called it child talk. I know my usage is often a bit old fashioned I perceive this politeness subjunctive as overused.


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## Hutschi

We have two essential groups:

1. Ich möchte jetzt nicht Volleyball spielen. (a special remark)

2. Ich kann Volleyballspielen nicht leiden. (a general remark)

"Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen" fits to both but requires context.

3. Context is also neccesary because of "mag" is also used in another sense, as a kind of agreement to a non essential Part (Example: Ich mag ja Volleyball spielen/Ich räume ein, dass ich Volleyball spiele/Du hast ja recht, ich spiele Volleyball, aber ich war gestern trotzdem nicht auf dem Sportplatz.")

The most people avoid problems with words which bear too many meanings.


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## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> people inversely frown upon the indicative, like you when you called it child talk.


Are  you kidding?
Look up "mögen" als Vollverb. # 39


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Are you kidding?


No.



JClaudeK said:


> Look up "mögen" als Vollverb


That is not the usage we are arguing about.


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## διαφορετικός

bearded said:


> Would you exclude it even if/when 'kein' refers to the (nominalized) infinitive 'Spielen'? _Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen. _Kein solches Spiel...


In the usual case, I would exclude it, because it does not appear in quantities. Exceptions seem artificial:
- "Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen, weder das Spielen bei Regen noch dasjenige bei Sonnenschein."
- "Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen, weder das vormittägliche noch das nachmittägliche."


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## JClaudeK

JClaudeK said:


> Look up "mögen" als Vollverb. # 39





berndf said:


> That is not the usage we are arguing about.


Really?
What I wanted to remind you of, was:


> 1. *mögen* wird meistens als Vollverb verwendet.
> 2. Nur selten wird *mögen* mit einem Infinitiv verbunden [ Instead people use "möchte(n)*" or "gerne tun"]


*No  "_overused  politeness subjunctive_".


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## berndf

Your conclusion is still wrong.
_Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball_
is not an alternative to
_Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen_
Because the two sentences mean different things. _Gern_ can replace _mag_ only in positive and not in negative sentences. To repeat:

_Ich spiele gern Volleyball = Ich mag Volleyball spielen 
Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball = Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen _


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## JClaudeK

You must have forgotten the title of the thread:
"*I don’t like to play volleyball.*"

Indeed: _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen. _  

_Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball_.


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## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> You must have forgotten the title of the tread:
> "*I don’t like to play volleyball.*"
> 
> Indeed: _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen. _
> 
> _Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball_.


Yes, we agree on that. My point was only related to the alleged lack of idiomaticiy of _Ich mag nicht Volleyball spielen._ I agree it does not translate the sentence in the title correctly.


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## bearded

διαφορετικός said:


> because it does not appear in quantities.


In my feeling, 'kein' does not always refer to quantity or quality. -Willst du Brot? -Nein,ich will kein Brot (=ich will Brot nicht). The latter does not mean  ''ich will weder Weißbrot noch Vollkornbrot'', nor ''I don't want a large/small quantity of it''.  In analogy, ''Ich mag kein Volleyball-Spielen'' could (in my view) mean ''Ich mag das Volleyball-Spielen nicht''. It just excludes the play/game in itself (please note that I'm not talking about idiomaticity: I of course agree that ''Ich spiele nicht gern Volleyball'' is much more idiomatic).


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> So you would prefer _Ich habe [jetzt] keine Lust Volleyball zu spielen_ instead of _Ich mag [jetzt] nicht Volleyball spielen_. Is that correct?


It's correct for me and I would never say the second version and not even perceive them as really equivalent. I agree with JCK that I can imagine the latter one a lot better with a wailing child stubbornly saying no. As adult I would never say "mag" instead of "gerne tun / Lust haben auf".


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## διαφορετικός

bearded said:


> In my feeling, 'kein' does not always refer to quantity or quality.


Yes, it is very usual to say "Ich will kein Brot" instead of "Ich will nicht Brot", therefore it is often reasonable to interpret "kein" as "nicht".

Some people even say "Ich mag kein Brot." I don't like this kind of expression (I prefer "Brot mag ich nicht", because you cannot interpret "kein" as a quantity here), but it is used by many people, probably because Brot can be combined easily with the words "viel" and "wenig".

The combination of "kein" with things that cannot be combined with "viel" and "wenig": I consider it wrong and I think it is very rarely used.


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## JClaudeK

διαφορετικός said:


> Yes, it is very usual to say "Ich will kein Brot" instead of "Ich will nicht Brot", therefore it is often reasonable to interpret "kein" as "nicht".


Ich würde sagen: "kein Brot" ist  die einzige Standard-Option.
"Ich will nicht Brot."
Willst du Brot? - Nein danke, ich will (jetzt) kein Brot.

Siehe hier die Standardregeln:


> Wir verwenden im Deutschen _nicht_ zur Negation:
> 
> von Verben
> Beispiel: Er _schläft_ nicht. Er hat gestern Nacht nicht _geschlafen_.
> 
> von Nomen mit bestimmtem Artikel oder Possessivpronomen
> (_nicht_ steht vor dem bestimmten Artikel) Beispiel: Er hat nicht _das Essen_ bezahlt, sondern die Getränke. Ich habe nicht _seine_ Adresse, sondern ihre.
> 
> 
> Wir verwenden im Deutschen _kein_ zur Negation:
> 
> bei Nomen ohne Artikel Beispiel: Ich habe Hunger. – Ich habe keinen Hunger.


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## JClaudeK

Ergänzung zum vorliegenden Thread:


bearded said:


> How would _Ich mag keinen Volleyball spielen _sound?





manfy said:


> when we say "Spielen wir Volleyball?", Volleyball describes the game as a concept, not the physical ball itself; therefore it becomes "das Volleyball[spiel]". So, I'd only say "Ich mag * *kein *Volleyball spielen."






> In den folgenden Fällen können wir sowohl _nicht_ als auch _kein_ verwenden:
> 
> bei Nomen + Verb, die eine feste Einheit bilden (z. B. _Auto fahren_)
> Beispiel: Mein Vater kann nicht _Auto fahren_.
> Mein Vater kann kein _Auto fahren_.


Ich persönlich ziehe aber bei weitem "kann/ will *nicht* Auto fahren/ nicht Volleyball spielen/ etc." vor.


Edit:
* As ĺ already said, for me, it should be "Ich *möchte *kein Volleyball spielen." (meaning "Ich habe keine Lust, .....")


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