# CC- clusters (tr-, br-, etc.)



## Gavril

Hello,

The Spanish-derived word for "arm" (Tagalog _bisig_) seems to be written as _braso _in Pilipino but _baraso _in Tagalog.

Does this reflect a general pattern wherein Tagalog inserts a vowel in word-initial consonant clusters (thus _*br*aso > *bar*aso_, _*tr*abaho_ > _*tar*abaho_, etc.) but Pilipino doesn't? Or, is the treatment of CC-clusters more complex than this?

Thanks for any info


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## rempress

As far as I know there are no baraso and tarabaho Pilipino words. You are mistaken if you think Pilipino and Tagalog are two different languages.


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## Gavril

rempress said:


> As far as I know there are no baraso and tarabaho Pilipino words.


 
Tagalog-Dictionary.com lists both _braso/trabaho _and_ baraso/tarabaho._



> You are mistaken if you think Pilipino and Tagalog are two different languages.



I didn't mean to imply that they were; in distinguishing Pilipino from Tagalog, I was referring to different standard forms of the language.


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## DotterKat

First, a little semantic clarification and a brief historical review may provide a better background for the question. Strictly speaking, Tagalog is just one among many indigenous languages of the Philippines. It was indeed chosen as the basis for a national standardized language which was subsequently named Pilipino. (To complicate matters, a recent language commission declared all indigenous languages as dialects, despite enormous differences among some of them.) So, in practical terms, there is very little difference between Pilipino (national language) and Tagalog (indigenous language or dialect, depending on how closely one examines it).
The peculiar consonant blends to which you refer pertain to the "old" Tagalog which was subsequently polished or simplified to produce Pilipino, a process that was more a product of natural evolution -- language borrowing, blending, shifting, etc. -- than strict codification over many years. There are indeed some, mostly older people, who do still speak "old" Tagalog which sounds a little different in that extra vowels seem to be added after consonsant clusters and more noticeably, syllabication and sometimes even accentuation is altered (or seminal, considering that "modern" Tagalog and Pilipino sprouted from it).

So:


Gavril said:


> Does this reflect a general pattern wherein Tagalog inserts a vowel in word-initial consonant clusters (thus _*br*aso > *bar*aso_, _*tr*abaho_ > _*tar*abaho_, etc.) but Pilipino doesn't? Or, is the treatment of CC-clusters more complex than this?



No, Tagalog as it exists now does not insert extra vowels after consonant clusters.
Since Pilipino, the national language, is based largely on Tagalog it follows that Pilipino likewise does not add extra vowels after consonant clusters.
The issue of consonant clusters becomes complicated only for academic reasons, that is, if one is inclined to study archaic Tagalog. In current formal or colloquial Tagalog/Pilipino, it is of no consequence.


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## go_neybee

My family is from Bulacan (a Tagalog province) and I spoke Tagalog with a Bulakenyo accent til I was about six. My grandma would probably agree with me if I say you're right.

Kids nowadays though are more exposed to foreign words/sounds. Names / brands with consonant-consonant clusters are now commonplace. Thus, more modern Tagalog/Filipino speakers don't have the same pronunciation discrepancy.


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