# 大王 - pronunciation



## Romeo4755

Hello.
I am watching a TV show about the Qin dynasty and what I hear all the time is /tawan/ instead of /dawan/ (大王). Is it some sort or archaic pronunciation or am I just hallucinating?
Also, in some old books there are Li Po and Tu Fu instead of Li Bo and Du Fu.
What is it with this exchange of voiced and voiceless consonants?
Thank you for enlightening me in advance.


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## yuechu

Hi Romeo4755,

I think I remember reading that most consonants in Mandarin are actually voiceless, hence "Tai*p*ei", "*P*eking", etc. in the old spellings. Let's wait for someone with more knowledge about this to reply! 

EDIT: You might find this chart of Wade-Giles pinyin helpful! The difference between "t" and "d" (in Hanyu pinyin) is aspiration opposed to voicing. (Same for "p", "b"; "k", "g"; etc.)
Wade–Giles - Wikipedia


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## Romeo4755

yuechu said:


> Hi Romeo4755,
> 
> I think I remember reading that most consonants in Mandarin are actually voiceless,
> 
> 
> Wade–Giles - Wikipedia


Hmm, it is interesting. Still 大 is /da/ in today's Mandarin.


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## retrogradedwithwind

大，旧读dài如带。如


> dài
> 〔～夫〕医生（“夫”读轻声）。
> 〔～王〕戏曲、旧小说中对强盗首领的称呼（“王”读轻声）。



现代人偶尔在开玩笑时也说“大dài王”。

又tai、dai音近，非常容易混淆，大dài 太tai原本可能就是一个字，后来分化成两个字。如“大山”即“太山”，太原就是大平原的意思。


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## dojibear

Romeo4755 said:


> Hmm, it is interesting. Still 大 is /da/ in today's Mandarin.


大 is "da" in modern pinyin, but in IPA symbols it is /tɑ/.

Mandarin T (aspirated) has the IPA symbol /tʰ/.
Mandarin D (unaspirated) has the IPA symbol /t/.

IPA /d/ doesn't exist in Mandarin (普通话).



yuechu said:


> The difference between "t" and "d" (in Hanyu pinyin) is aspiration opposed to voicing. (Same for "p"/"b"; "k"/"g")


That is correct. But what it "sounds like to you" depends on your native language.


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## SuperXW

I'm not an expert in phonetics so I cannot comment much. The sound should be clear, but it is about how you define and perceive /t/ and /d/, and which phonetic system you are using. 
I believe Dojibear has given a good clue.


Romeo4755 said:


> /tawan/ instead of /dawan/ (大王).


What I want to mention is that 王 is not /wan/, but /wang/, at list in Pinyin.


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## skating-in-bc

Romeo4755 said:


> the Qin dynasty.../tawan/ instead of /dawan/ (大王). Is it some sort or archaic pronunciation or am I just hallucinating?


The scholarly pronunciation of「*大王*」of the *Classical Chinese period* (i.e., from the Spring and Autumn period to the end of the Han dynasty) prescribed by the dictionaries (e.g., 《康熙字典》、《國語辭典》) is /*tʰai*-waŋ/ (大: 至高無上的; 他蓋切, 音忲)。後人或徑改作 "太", e.g., 大王 (太王), 大后 (太后), 大子 (太子)。


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## Romeo4755

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 大，旧读dài如带。如
> 
> 
> 现代人偶尔在开玩笑时也说“大dài王”。
> 
> 又tai、dai音近，非常容易混淆，大dài 太tai原本可能就是一个字，后来分化成两个字。如“大山”即“太山”，太原就是大平原的意思。


I am sorry! I was trying to translate but have a problem: 轻声 (soft) - is it palatalized or is it voiceless as opposed to voiced?


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## skating-in-bc

Romeo4755 said:


> Is 太 and 大 etymologically one word?


No.  太 was originally a Chu character (楚文字) meaning "slippery; smooth" (滑也; 順也).  It was borrowed into the Qin-styled writing systems (秦書; e.g., 小篆) and later used as a nonstandard form (俗字) of "大" for the sense of 'great, supreme' during the Eastern Han dynasty (25AD–220 AD).  Such usage still called for annotations then (e.g., 79 AD 班固《白虎通》太亦大也; 227 AD 張揖《廣雅·釋詁一》太，大也), suggesting it was still not widely known or readily understood.

The title “太王” (Korean 태왕 [tʰɛwa̠ŋ]) meaning 'greatest king' was employed by a reigning king of Goguryeo (高句麗) named Gogugwon-wang (故國原王 331AD-371AD在位).  The Japanese counterpart is however "大王" (Japanese だいおう [da̠io̞ː]). Note the difference in syllable onset: Korean Hanja [tʰ-] vs. Japanese Go-on [d-]. Go-on readings (呉音) were introduced into Japan during the 5th and 6th centuries. 


Romeo4755 said:


> To illustrate my question here are some links with time stamps:


Your video clips illustrate that what you heard was *pinyin* *dà* (IPA /ta/).


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## skating-in-bc

Pinyin <d> (IPA /t/) is usually realized as [t-] in the word initial position (as in 大王, 大人, 答應) and [-d-] in the intervocalic position (as in 交大, 清大, 回答), although it is also acceptable to either treat them as free allophones or use only [t] for pinyin <d> in all positions of words.


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## Romeo4755

skating-in-bc said:


> Pinyin <d> (IPA /t/) is usually realized as [t-] in the word initial position (as in 大王, 大人, 答應) and [-d-] in the intervocalic position (as in 交大, 清大, 回答), although it is also acceptable to either treat them as free allophones or use only [t] for pinyin <d> in all positions of words.


Thank you so much for your explanation.
Thank for the interesting information about 太.  🌺


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## skating-in-bc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 大，旧读dài如带。


對。

怕被誤以為你我有所抵觸, 故在此說明一下:

*上古*「大王」(e.g.,《詩經·周頌·天作》天作高山, 大王荒之), 現代讀書音 <*tai *wang> (IPA /tʰai-waŋ/), 同「太王」。

*中古*「大王」(e.g., 唐.陳子昂《為百官謝追尊魏國大王表》), 現代讀書音 <*dai* wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/), 別於「太王」。

*近代*「大王」(e.g., 元.關漢卿《關大王獨赴單刀會》) 讀 <*dai* wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/), 當時口語可能有人說 <da wang> (IPA /ta-waŋ/) (《中原音韻.大》端母, 家麻韻, 去聲)。

*現代*「大王」(e.g., 李曉明《平原槍聲》牛皮大王) 讀 <*da* wang> (IPA /ta-waŋ/), 然匪首的稱呼 (e.g., 山大王), 仍常念 <dai wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/)。


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## Romeo4755

skating-in-bc said:


> 對。
> 
> 怕被誤以為你我有所抵觸, 故在此說明一下:
> 
> *上古*「大王」(e.g.,《詩經·周頌·天作》天作高山, 大王荒之), 現代讀書音 <*tai *wang> (IPA /tʰai-waŋ/), 同「太王」。
> 
> *中古*「大王」(e.g., 唐.陳子昂《為百官謝追尊魏國大王表》), 現代讀書音 <*dai* wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/), 別於「太王」。
> 
> *近代*「大王」(e.g., 元.關漢卿《關大王獨赴單刀會》) 讀 <*dai* wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/), 當時口語可能有人說 <da wang> (IPA /ta-waŋ/) (《中原音韻.大》端母, 家麻韻, 去聲)。
> 
> *現代*「大王」(e.g., 李曉明《平原槍聲》牛皮大王) 讀 <*da* wang> (IPA /ta-waŋ/), 然匪首的稱呼 (e.g., 山大王), 仍常念 <dai wang> (IPA /tai-waŋ/)。



Thank you very much for further explanations. I have missed this diachronic pronunciation feature with  大 though I heard that some people in the TV show said /da wang/ and some /dai wang/.
I would so like having a dictionary with chronological pronunciation and interpretation of Chinese words, because meaning changes along with pronunciation.


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