# Translating copyrighted work on WRF



## _forumuser_

It is not uncommon on these forums to see users asking literally hundreds of questions about one single, copyrighted text they are translating. I have two concerns about this. The first is with copyright itself. The lines may have been smeared over many different threads, but if we patch together the content of these threads we get several pages worth of the original text, which is way past our four-line copyright policy. THen there is an ethical/legal issue. I doubt authors and publishers would be happy to know their work is being subjected to this kind of public dissection prior to publication, so I am sure this is being done hush hush. If I contribute to one of these threads, fully aware it is from a work not yet released, does this potentially make me an accomplice in fraud? In fact, there is a third issue, which is how this kind of collective translating affects other (more competent?) translators, but I remember this has already been discussed in some past thread. I would appreciate it if someone could clarify what the rules are, and tell me whether my concerns are justified. Thank you.


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## Saoul

Ciao Fu,

thanks a lot for your question. 

The copyright is not  applicable in these cases.
The requests that we get  on the Forums do respect some criteria that we find acceptable, such  as:

- explanation of the  context (something that is useful, and that we mods  encourage)
- the tough expression in  its original sentence.

I don't think this is ground to define those threads a fraud, and by contributing to them, you are not committing any offence. 

The characters' and story development would be different, I would then agree with you, but idioms, verbs and nouns are copyright free. 

Just to make it clearer, if I opened a thread about "He ran for his life", I wouldn't infringe any copyright rules, just because this sentence was used in Harry Potter.

Saoul


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## Alxmrphi

Yeah combinations of words and even sometimes many many consecutive sentences can no way be given copyright to someone, you can't copyright single musical notes, and you can't copyright a scale, or even about 10-20 notes used in the same order, it just belongs to the area of everyone.

Copyright claims have become hilariously funny recently all over the world in what people _think _they can and have copyright(ed).


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## _forumuser_

Saoul said:


> if i opened a thread about "He ran for his life"
> Saoul



I am sorry, Saoul, but if after a thread about: "He ran for his life" )) you opened two hundred more for lines from the same work you should, to the very least, acknowledge the source of your citation (I think this is called "moral rights"), which in the case I have in mind has never been done for some reason, and then probably ask permission from Mrs. Rowling's publisher to use her work for an online translation workshop, which you might even get, for a few million dollars!  Thanks for your reply, by the way.

Alex,
Yeah, freedom rocks!


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## stella_maris_74

I agree with _FU_ on this one.
It is kind of contradictory, in my opinion,  that WRF doesn't permit help on homework, or help in misrepresenting someone's knowledge of a language in front of an employer, or splitting the lyrics of a song into multiple threads (from the same thread starter, at least. If today someone asks for the translation of the first 4 lines of a song, and next week another user asks for the next 4 lines, etc, at some point the forum will contain quotes from the same song that exceed the 4-lines-rule all the same, isn't it?), but then it permits that what appears to be a professional translator (= doing a remunerated job) can get help on a ridiculously high amount of sentences from the same book, the quoting of which, because of the need for context, often includes synopsis, character analysis, plot twists, etc.
How can this not be a copyright violation, when it gets to the point that one could virtually get to read most of the book simply grouping the threads the user has been opening asking for help in translating or for help in polishing up his/her translations?

Then there is of course the work-ethic issue, as in the end this translator will deliver -and get paid for- a translation that isn't entirely his/her own work but, to what seems to me a really large extent, the result of a huge (and free, I might add) "online translation workshop" as _FU_  defines it.

This doesn't seem right to me. As far as I am concerned, at some point I took the "enough is enough" route and simply started to ignore those requests, but as a professional translator myself I can't help seeing this as a cheating that shouldn't be permitted.
I am not sure about how this can be avoided, as long as the user(s) ask their questions "abiding by WRF rules about how to ask questions", but still it looks to me like a big hole in the otherwise very thoughtful and well-outlined WRF policy.

Thanks for your attention on my 0.02 

dani


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## Saoul

Do you really reckon that we didn't ponder each and anyone of the doubts that you are arising? 

I mean, we really appreciate the fact that you are worried about WRF integrity, and I'm sure your first interest here, is WRF safety against misuse, but please friends, we have looked into these situations ahead, and we know what we are doing. 

WRF is a tool, just like a dictionary. 

I was translating a show yesterday, and in order to translate a sentence I consulted:

- 3 dictionaries
- wikipedia
- some specific sites
- 2 magazines

Did I cheat? I don't think so. I got the meaning of that expression because I did a lot of research and managed to understand it. Was the merit of my translation genuinelly MINE? I don't think so. Was I paid for that work? Hell yeah! 

People ask for help to understand an expression. WRF Members provide examples, explanations, possible translations, interpretations, and the translator will decide which suggested translation he/she will use, what nuance he/she will write, and so on, but most of all he/she learns what the heck that expression means. 

A tool. Just like a dictionary! I can't ask the dictionary something like:

"Sorry dear, but I really didn't get your explanation!" or "Do you think it is ironic?" or "Is it retaliatory in your opinion?"

Or at least I can't do that without being considered a bit coocoo! 

I can do that here. That's the great thing about WRF, but apart from this, WRF is nothing but a tool just like wikipedia, oxfordparavia, google, or anything else in my book.


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## stella_maris_74

Hi Saoul,
and thanks for your reply 
 I tend to think that doing your own research through whatever resources you are able to find on- and off-line is still part of doing your job (noi italiani diremmo "è sempre farina del tuo sacco" ). 
 One can either do that, *and/or* just pop here and start a thread. Someone will eventually reply.
I don't find that, in itself, questionable (obviously, otherwise I would't even be here ).

But sometimes it looks like that "*and/or*" tend exclusively towards the "*or*": hundreds of threads about bits from the same copyrighted work you (general "you", not Saoul! ) are supposed to be able to translate by yourself (and that _you are translating by yourself, as far as your employers know_) reek a bit of forum exploitation, in my humble opinion.

I don't see it like consulting a dictionary / Wikipedia / a magazine. 
I see it as presenting yourself as a professional translator able to handle a text of a certain level of difficulty by yourself, and then handing out a translation which is to a very large extent the result of you cherry-picking the translations provided by a bunch of other people (native speakers or more competent translators) that you've been repeatedly asking to help you out.

 But if you and the rest of the Mod Team have gone through the issue and found nothing wrong with it, I'm surprised, but so be it: I have no reasons not to trust your judgement.

 Keep up the good work,

 dani


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## _forumuser_

Thanks, dani, for bringing this up again. I am glad to hear there are others who feel offended by this use of the forum. Many of my translator friends agree that this *behavior* is breaching, if not copyright regulations, the following: 1) the confidentiality agreement between publisher and translator 2) the moral rights of the author that require that every citation be attributed; 3) what is called fair use of a copyrighted work; 4) an unspoken rule among translators which roughly states "you don't take on jobs you can't handle, and then have others do them for you in secret". 

Saoul,
When you ask a question on WRF, you don't simply look up a dictionary, you PUBLISH content of a copyrighted work, making it visible to the whole world. As far as I know, normally you need a license to do this, which you don't need to open a dictionary. [In a sense, it could be argued that you do. In fact you do purchase your right to open the dictionary when you buy it]. The 4-line limit on WRF ensures that every citation on this forum stays this side of the line beyond which WRF would owe royalties to the copyright holders of that content. But when the cumulative citation totals 2,000 (!) lines, viewable in one set just by clicking on "View all threads started by this user," then I think concerns about fair use and copyright violation are very justified.


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## danielfranco

It's unconscionable to use the forum in this manner.


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## mkellogg

Hi everybody,

I think it is natural that a translator working full-time might have a few questions that he/she would like answers to, and I think the forums here are a fine place to ask them.  In general, it won't do any harm to the publisher, and the publisher of the book might be marginally thankful that the translation was better as a result.

Mike


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## Alxmrphi

mkellogg said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I think it is natural that a translator working full-time might have a few questions that he/she would like answers to, and I think the forums here are a fine place to ask them. In general, it won't do any harm to the publisher, and the publisher of the book might be marginally thankful that the translation was better as a result.
> 
> Mike



Logic prevails!


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## María Madrid

I'm one of those translators who ask for suggestions here... and I'm not ashamed of it. 

Am I cheating? No, just using another tool. Sometimes I check with a friend from NZ on msn to make sure I got the right nuance of a sentence. Somtimes I call a British friend who lives here. Sometimes I post here and get replies from native speakers who are not my friends but can provide a good explanation. Forumuser said "you don't take on jobs you can't handle". Looking up words in a dictionary or checking with native speakers when it comes to slang idioms, or asking other people for their opinion even about the wording in a specific sentence in your own language, is all of that considered "more than you can handle"? I don't think so. It's part of the translation work. 

The way I see it a translator is not expected to know every single word and expression in the documents he translates but to find out what he doesn't know so that he can deliver a good work. For instance, I'd never accept a medical translation, but in my day-to-day work with "normal" texts I do find expressions I've never come across before, or maybe I just want that little extra help dictionaries can't provide in terms of sounding natural and appropriate in a specific sentence. 

Copyright. Whenever I ask a question I change the original sentence and keep the part I have problems with. If the name of a character is mentioned, it becomes he or they, palace becomes home, sword becomes weapon... I don't know how it is for others, but all my questions put together wouldn't take more than one page of unrelated sentences that would make no sense.

I know other forums for professional translators and they work more or less like WR. If someone wanted to complete a translation which really is "more than you can handle" by using WR and without an appropriate language level , I don't really think they'll ever meet a normal deadline. Saludos,


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## _forumuser_

María Madrid said:


> I'm one of those translators who ask for suggestions here... and I'm not ashamed of it.



I don't recall anyone saying you should be. 



María Madrid said:


> is all of that considered "more than you can handle"?



More than you can handle means more than you can handle. Each of us knows (should know) what that is.



María Madrid said:


> but all my questions put together wouldn't take more than one page of unrelated sentences that would make no sense.



Then you are not one of the forer@s I was referring to in my first post.


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## stella_maris_74

Hi Mike,
and thank you very much for your reply.
However, I have to disagree.



mkellogg said:


> I think it is natural that a translator working full-time might have a few questions that he/she would like answers to,


. 

If it really was "a few", nobody would complain. But can hundreds of threads, thousands of lines *from the same copyrighted work and without even masking/omitting revealing details, character names etc* published here still be considered "a few questions"? 



mkellogg said:


> In general, it won't do any harm to the publisher, and the publisher of the book might be marginally thankful that the translation was better as a result.



Maybe it differs from publisher to publisher, or maybe my employers are particularly strict, but I can assure you they can be absolutely paranoid about the confidentiality agreement. I'm expected to be able to handle all the job by myself, and if I need the *occasional* suggestion I must be extremely careful and not disclose any telltale details about the project I'm working on. In some cases I'm even asked to erase the project from my computer after I'm done with it, go figure .
Should they know I've been publishing that much of the work for everyone to see, they would freak out, no less. 
They'd probably sue me, for sure they would never entrust me with a job again.

Then again, maybe I should find more easygoing employers. 

Ciao,

dani


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## k_georgiadis

I am interested in this debate, not because I am a translator concerned about "unfair competition," but because I am trying to understand the rules and principles of the Forum (in fact I'm no translator of any kind, if you discount my occasional folly of translating short pieces of English text for my personal masochistic pleasure.)

Am I to understand that there is a daily limit on total questions posted?


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## TrentinaNE

k_georgiadis said:


> Am I to understand that there is a daily limit on total questions posted?


Not explicitly. However, on occasion, forer@s who appear to be "dominating" a particular forum (starting, say, roughly half or more of the threads that appear on the first page, which tends to "crowd out" other inquiries) might be asked to abide by a self-imposed daily limit. 

Elisabetta


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## k_georgiadis

Ciao Elisabetta,

I haven't conducted a scientific survey but I don't recall anyone ever crowding the "front page" in the fashion that you described.

In examining the debate a little closer, I read a number of tenuous comments about copyrights, confidentiality, etc. I know a thing or two about all of these things but, since I have not been called as a witness to the court of ethics, I'll keep my opinions to myself. 

Instead I'll continue to help people whenever I can, never allowing my limited resources to be a deterrent. 

Konstantin


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## Einstein

My attention has been called to this thread. Just off the cuff I want to make the following points:
1) I have no idea of the titles and hardly any idea of the plot of the books the persons concerned are translating. I could not piece together all the lines of any books quoted to get a full book. In this sense I'd say that, in principle, nobody has published a book on the forum. If the moderators are satisfied that copyright rules have not been broken, then we should all be satisfied.
2) Are we giving free help? I personally don't see it that way; I see it as an exchange of views (and I enjoy it). If I help someone today, someone else will help me tomorrow. Those who don't want to give unpaid help are free not to do so.
3) As for "taking on more than you can handle", I think this comment doesn't take account of the real working world and the real conditions in which most translators work. There is no absolute measure of professionalism. We all accept the translation jobs we are offered in the *hope* that we will be able to do them; we have to make a living!
4) When I'm translating a text with difficult terminology I look for similar texts on Internet. A few years ago this would not have been possible; does this mean that I'm cheating?
5) To return to point (1), far from being in breach of copyright, the use of the forum will lead to the publication of translated books, which will in turn be copyrighted and sold. I don't see why the publishers should mind this!
6) I don't think anybody is dominating the forum with the number of questions asked.


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## k_georgiadis

Einstein, I could not have written it any better!! Also, as is often the case, the English original must have been published many months before and there is no closely guarded ending "a la Harry Potter."


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## perfavore

Hi everyone,

Personally, I don't have the time to put pieces together when my sole intent is to learn Italian. I am just happy to be able to help someone who is also happy to help me in return.


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## Flaminius

k_georgiadis said:


> I haven't conducted a scientific survey but I don't recall anyone ever crowding the "front page" in the fashion that you described.


Not that I have noticed it happening in Italian forums, but forums with less traffic can have a crowded front page if someone decides to post 15 questions all at once.  It has happened before and may happen again....


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## Andre Balian

mkellogg said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I think it is natural that a translator working full-time might have a few questions that he/she would like answers to, and I think the forums here are a fine place to ask them.  In general, it won't do any harm to the publisher, and the publisher of the book might be marginally thankful that the translation was better as a result.
> 
> Mike



I'm with the boss 

Besides, nobody is forcing any of you to be here (as far as I know ).  If you think somebody is misusing the forum, don't participate in the forum.  If you know for a fact that they are not changing proper nouns to ambiguous ones, perhaps ask them to do so.  Why the animosity?  

I'm shocked that you would waste time and effort trying to negatively impact somebody's life because it is _your opinion_ that they are _cheating_.  If time is saved and more accurate translations are the result, (whilst improving the of language awareness of others,) what's the problem?  

Wouldn't these efforts be better spent on something positive?

Respectfully,
AB


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## TimLA

I try to stay out of threads such as this, because they generally lead to nothing, but this particular thread is disturbing enough that I will give my opinion.

The important questions before the "group" are (1) is the described activity illegal?, and (2) could it place WR in some type of legal jeopardy?
Based on the post by Mike, these answers are "no".

In my *opinion*, the questions posted by this particular person are reasonable, and in my *opinion*, because the prose is so "atypical", it adds something to WR.
The decision to "help" anyone here is an individual one - no one is required to help anyone else. There are some of us who attempt to help whenever possible. I do not believe that these attempts are immoral or unethical. A "campaign" against someone here, in my opinion, may meet those criteria.

In every "job", there are a variety of abilities - some people need more help than others.
And until told to do otherwise, I will attempt to help those who ask...those who are "less than perfect"...like myself.

If the person decides not to post here any longer, so be it.
I have given this individual my personal email, and told this person to contact me at any time for questions...
at a loss, in my *opinion*, to WR.


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## Paulfromitaly

TimLA said:


> I try to stay out of threads such as this, because they generally lead to nothing, but this particular thread is disturbing enough that I will give my opinion.
> 
> The important questions before the "group" are (1) is the described activity illegal?, and (2) could it place WR in some type of legal jeopardy?
> Based on the post by Mike, these answers are "no".
> 
> In my *opinion*, the questions posted by the forera are reasonable, and in my *opinion*, because the prose is so "atypical", it adds something to WR.
> The decision to "help" anyone here is an individual one - no one is required to help anyone else. There are some of us who attempt to help whenever possible. I do not believe that these attempts are immoral or unethical. A "campaign" against someone here, in my opinion, may meet those criteria.
> 
> In every "job", there are a variety of abilities - some people need more help than others.
> And until told to do otherwise, I will attempt to help those who ask...those who are "less than perfect"...like myself.
> 
> If the forera decides not to post here any longer, so be it.
> 
> at a loss, in my *opinion*, to WR.



This post perfectly reflects my opinion and since I could never do better than this (especially from a linguistic point of view) I just add my


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## jonquiliser

Amen, Mike and André Balian!

I’m quite dismayed – and actually a little surprised – at the attitude of competition that seems to pop up so frequently. I can understand, and agree, that there are limits as to what counts as talking/asking/consulting; there are such things as ‘exploiting’ others. But as for claims like ‘you should only take on work you’re qualified to do’ – well, in a way, that is obvious. But in another way, and according to how some people (seem to) interpret it, it appears as if you shouldn’t consult anyone but dictionaries and the like. But no one is ever qualified in the sense of knowing all, and it only seems sensible to discuss points of doubt with others. Ask for suggestions when being stuck. Help each other. If I had ordered a translation from someone, I’d be quite pleased to know the person has actually consulted others about critical of difficult or obscure parts of the text. I’d only get a better product. 

But then, I’m not a translator, although I occasionally do some translations. Perhaps I’m just more used to viewing dialogue and discussing the details of what you write as an essential part of the process… And I actually find philosophy and translation quite similar in some respects - both activities fundamentally deal with meaning (of concepts, ideas, words)…


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## perfavore

Hi, 

I totally agree with AB and Tim. Nobody is forcing anybody. At first I thought everybody was friendly in this forum but it was just a dream. That's why I have not been to the forum that much anymore!


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## brian

These kinds of discussions (that is, those concerning WRF policies, legality, etc.) creep up from time to time, and I, as a forero, as well as others could and do make many arguments in regard to the roles, duties, rights, etc. of WRF and its members; but when it comes down to it, in the end, for me at least, I just like translating and learning and frankly care very little about such repercussions of my involvement. Does that make me selfish? 


brian (forero!)


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## _forumuser_

Andre Balian said:


> I'm shocked that you would waste time and effort trying to negatively impact somebody's life because it is _your opinion_ that they are _cheating_.


 


TimLA said:


> I do not believe that these attempts are immoral or unethical. A "campaign" against someone here, in my opinion, may meet those criteria.


 


jonquiliser said:


> I’m quite dismayed – and actually a little surprised – at the attitude of competition that seems to pop up so frequently.



Can I remind everybody that the Comments & Suggestions forum exists so that members may share _their views _on the forums and suggest ways to improve them? My post was written in full compliance with the spirit of this particular forum, to invite opinions from other forer@s on what _I _thought may be questionable usage of the language forums. Let me remind everyone of what my questions were:

- Is there or is there not a four-line limit on quotations valid for all? 
- Does allowing unfair use (if it turns out to be) or helping someone who is breaching copyright rules (if they are) make the forum and the forer@s accomplices of the violation?

And of how I ended my message:

"I would appreciate it if someone could clarify what the rules are, and tell me whether my concerns are justified." 

All I see here is a request for clarification and an invitation to think. What I don't see is how your totally uncalled for personal opinions on how disturbing, immoral, competitive this thread is, and how I should rather be using my time are in any way a response to the issues I raised.



Andre Balian said:


> If you think somebody is misusing the forum, *don't participate in the forum.*



If you allow me, if _I_ think somebody is misusing the forum I am entitled to choose the course of action _I_--not you--deem more appropriate.


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## TrentinaNE

The original concerns having been addressed, this thread is now closed.  Thanks to all who shared their thoughts on this matter.

Elisabetta


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