# понимать v. понять



## englishman

I have two questions:

1. Why is the imperfective form used in the question below, but the perfective in the answer ?

"будете ли вы понимать, когда учитель будет говорить по-англиский ?"
"я думаю, что я пойму его"

Is this due to the fact that the question is talking about simultaneous actions (talking and understanding) ?

2. To my mind, "to understand" is a naturally perfective concept i.e. you either understand a fact, or do not understand it, so that one's state of understanding is always definite and completed. In that case, when should понимать be used in Russian ?


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## rusita preciosa

*понимать* in this case is continuous action (while speaking, the teacher will be saying different things, will you understand all of them)?
*пойму* is the result (yes, after the teacher said what he had to say, I will have understood all of it).


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## dec-sev

englishman said:


> "будете ли вы понимать, когда учитель будет говорить по-английский ?"
> "я думаю, что я пойму его"
> [...]
> 
> 2. To my mind, "to understand" is a naturally perfective concept i.e. you either understand a fact, or do not understand it,...


I see it this way  too. At least in this particular case I would say: "Вы поймёте учителя / вы сможете понять учителя, когда он будет говорить с вами по-английски?"


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## rushalaim

englishman said:


> "будете ли вы понимать, когда учитель будет говорить по-англиский ?"


I think russian cannot say that! It sounds badly. It's better to ask the question this way: "Поймёте ли вы учителя, если он будет говорить по-английски?"


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## Maroseika

englishman said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Why is the imperfective form used in the question below, but the perfective in the answer ?
> 
> "будете ли вы понимать, когда учитель будет говорить по-англиский ?"
> "я думаю, что я пойму его"



This answer is just not quite to this question. Due answer would be: Да, буду (понимать) and due question: Вы поймете, если учитель будет говорить по-английски?

As for the perfectness of the action... When the teacher is speaking, you are understanding every word of him or every second of him speaking, and this is what Russian word понимать expresses. But if he, for example, explains a theorem, you can understand each word but in result fail understanding the theorem, and this is what the word понять expresses.
In other words, imperfect action понимать consists of the "infinitesimal" perfect acts of understanding, so to say.


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## er targyn

rushalaim said:


> I think russian cannot say that! It sounds badly. It's better to ask the question this way: "Поймёте ли вы учителя, если он будет говорить по-английски?"


Both are correct.


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## englishman

Maroseika said:


> This answer is just not quite to this question. Due answer would be: Да, буду (понимать) and due question: Вы поймете, если учитель будет говорить по-английски?



I'm not clear about what you're saying here - that the answer that I gave does not correspond to the question that I gave ?



> As for the perfectness of the action... When the teacher is speaking, you are understanding every word of him or every second of him speaking, and this is what Russian word понимать expresses. But if he, for example, explains a theorem, you can understand each word but in result fail understanding the theorem, and this is what the word понять expresses.
> In other words, imperfect action понимать consists of the "infinitesimal" perfect acts of understanding, so to say.


OK, I think I follow this. So, if we ask the following question:

"Did you understand the professor when he gave the lecture ?"

we must use понимать since there is no single act of understanding, but if we ask the question:

"Did you understand the proof of Rolle's theorem ?"

we must use понять since we are discussing the understanding of a single identifiable concept ?


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## englishman

dec-sev said:


> I see it this way  too. At least in this particular case I would say: "Вы поймёте учителя / вы сможете понять учителя, когда он будет говорить с вами по-английски?"



So you think that it's more natural to use понять in this question ? That seems to contradict Maroseika's explanation. I guess that raises the question: would native Russians use понимать and понять interchangeably in this kind of question, or is one or the other seen as preferable ?


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## englishman

rusita preciosa said:


> *понимать* in this case is continuous action (while speaking, the teacher will be saying different things, will you understand all of them)?
> *пойму* is the result (yes, after the teacher said what he had to say, I will have understood all of it).



Right. So I guess понимать makes more sense when the "understanding" is distributed over a period of time, and when there is no single concept to be understood ? So I couldn't use понять in the following question:

"Do you understand Russian ?"

since there is no single concept to be understood, when one is learning a language ?


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## estreets

I don't know what other Russian natives think but as to me I prefer to use the perfect form of понимать when speaking about the future 
And in this particular phrase, too.
Or with сможете.


> Right. So I guess понимать makes more sense when the "understanding" is distributed over a period of time, and when there is no single concept to be understood ? So I couldn't use понять in the following question:
> 
> "Do you understand Russian ?"


No, you could not.


> Глаголы совершенного вида *не имеют форм настоящего времени*!


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## er targyn

> So I couldn't use понять in the following question:
> "Do you understand Russian ?"


Yes. But in your first example both verbs are interchangeable, although some people find it weird to use понимать.  Language fluctuations?


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## englishman

er targyn said:


> Yes.



Yes ? Yes, I could use it ? Or are you agreeing with me ? (in which case, you would generally use "no" in English for this form of question).



> But in your first example both verbs are interchangeable, although some people find it weird to use понимать.  Language fluctuations?


Ok, thanks. That's interesting if slightly confusing.


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## Sobakus

englishman said:


> I'm not clear about what you're saying here - that the answer that I gave does not correspond to the question that I gave ?



Yes, the answer to "будете ли понимать" is "буду понимать", while the corresponding question to the answer "пойму" is "поймёте ли". Your combination might be used in a case where the person answering doesn't understand the language(or the person) that well. So you ask "will you understand what the teacher will be saying?" and the person answers "I think I'll get him in overall, even if I have trouble understanding every word".


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## englishman

Sobakus said:


> Yes, the answer to "будете ли понимать" is "буду понимать", while the corresponding question to the answer "пойму" is "поймёте ли".



So if the perfective form is used in the question, you would expect to hear the perfective form in the answer, and similarly for the imperfective ?

Is this true for all verbs, or do понимать and понять form a special case ?


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## Sobakus

englishman said:


> So if the perfective form is used in the question, you would expect to hear the perfective form in the answer, and similarly for the imperfective ?
> 
> Is this true for all verbs, or do понимать and понять form a special case ?



Err, a difficult question to be honest  Generally yes, but for example if a mother asks the child "будешь есть кашу-то?", the child can answer "буду" even if he/she has trouble eating all of it, or he/she can answer "съем" to assure the mother the porridge is doomed  Also there's an example in my previous, now edited post.


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## estreets

englishman said:


> So if the perfective form is used in the question, you would expect to hear the perfective form in the answer, and similarly for the imperfective ?
> 
> Is this true for all verbs, or do понимать and понять form a special case ?


Let me offer an example.
- Have you ever been to London?
- Yes, I went there two years ago.
Does this sound idiomatic?


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## dec-sev

englishman said:


> So you think that it's more natural to use понять in this question ?


Yes.


englishman said:


> That seems to contradict Maroseika's explanation.


No wonder. There are a lot of contradicting answers on the Russian forum  To tell you the truth I didn't understand his explanation either. So I can't comment on his post.


englishman said:


> I guess that raises the question: would native Russians use понимать and понять interchangeably in this kind of question, or is one or the other seen as preferable ?


 Let's limit ourself to the example you gave:
1. Вы будете понимать учителя, когда он будет говорить с вами по-английски?
2. Вы поймёте учителя, когда он будет говорить с вами по-английски?

Ask a simple question: "Which one sounds better /idiomatic / natural?". Don't ask if No 1 or 2 is possible. I once asked something on the English only and got an answer: "yes, it's possible". Then another native said: "It's not grammatically correct and doesn't sound good at all". The first native parried: "The question was not if it was corrrect or not, but if it was possible or not". Such answers are of no help at all. To avoid such situations ask simple questions, our answers will complicate things anyway


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## er targyn

> Yes, I could use it ? Or are you agreeing with me ?


I agree with you. You couldn't use it.


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## Maroseika

englishman said:


> I'm not clear about what you're saying here - that the answer that I gave does not correspond to the question that I gave ?


Yes, it doesn't correspond on 100%, because different aspect were used. In the fiction I'd call it bad style.



> OK, I think I follow this. So, if we ask the following question:
> 
> "Did you understand the professor when he gave the lecture ?"
> 
> we must use понимать since there is no single act of understanding, but if we ask the question:
> 
> "Did you understand the proof of Rolle's theorem ?"
> 
> we must use понять since we are discussing the understanding of a single identifiable concept ?


Exactly.
At least this is what I meant.


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## Ben Jamin

englishman said:


> I have two questions:
> 
> 1. Why is the imperfective form used in the question below, but the perfective in the answer ?
> 
> "будете ли вы понимать, когда учитель будет говорить по-англиский ?"
> "я думаю, что я пойму его"
> 
> Is this due to the fact that the question is talking about simultaneous actions (talking and understanding) ?
> 
> 2. To my mind, "to understand" is a naturally perfective concept i.e. you either understand a fact, or do not understand it, so that one's state of understanding is always definite and completed. In that case, when should понимать be used in Russian ?


 in the Slavic languages the verb "to understand" can be both perfective and imperfective. Imperfective when you "keep understanding" something (you may as well stop understanding a problem), perfective when the transition from not understanding to undertstanding has happened. While speaking about a langage generally, it will be appropriate to use the imperfective form, but while speaking about a particular message or issue, both can be used. In the example above the case is about understanding the language.


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## Garbuz

Вы будете понимать; вы будете видеть; вы будете слышать и т.д. Во всех такого рода фразах речь идет об обретении способности (понимать, видеть, слышать, и т.д.) в результате некоторого действия (курса обучения, операции и т.д.). Без этого данные фразы, как Маросейка правильно подметила, звучат стилистически шероховато. Примеры:Пройдя данный курс обучения, вы будете легко понимать учителя, когда он будет говорить по-английски. После этой операции вы будете хорошо слышать / видеть.


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## englishman

estreets said:


> Let me offer an example.
> - Have you ever been to London?
> - Yes, I went there two years ago.
> Does this sound idiomatic?



Yes, it sounds idiomatic, and I guess you are contrasting the imperfective aspect in the first sentence to the perfective in the second. I'm not sure it says anything about the use of aspect in Russian, though. Am I missing your point ?


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## englishman

Ben Jamin said:


> in the Slavic languages the verb "to understand" can be both perfective and imperfective. Imperfective when you "keep understanding" something (you may *just *as well stop understanding a problem), perfective when the transition from not understanding to undertstanding has happened. While speaking about a langage generally, it will be appropriate to use the imperfective form, but while speaking about a particular message or issue, both can be used. In the example above the case is about understanding the language.



Right. I think I understand now, in general, when понимать and понять should be used, but I was originally confused by the change from imperfective in the question to perfective in the answer. I'm still not sure if the native Russians agree that this example is stylistically strange, or not.


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## englishman

Garbuz said:


> Вы будете понимать; вы будете видеть; вы будете слышать и т.д. Во всех такого рода фразах речь идет об обретении способности (понимать, видеть, слышать, и т.д.) в результате некоторого действия (курса обучения, операции и т.д.). Без этого данные фразы, как Маросейка правильно подметила, звучат стилистически шероховато. Примеры:Пройдя данный курс обучения, вы будете легко понимать учителя, когда он будет говорить по-английски. После этой операции вы будете хорошо слышать / видеть.



This is beyond my level of Russian, but I think you're saying that phrases like "Вы будете понимать" have to be used when the rest of the sentence implies that some operation will occur that causes the understanding ? And that without that, the sentences sound strange ?


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## estreets

englishman said:


> Yes, it sounds idiomatic, and I guess you are contrasting the imperfective aspect in the first sentence to the perfective in the second. I'm not sure it says anything about the use of aspect in Russian, though. Am I missing your point ?


I mean in Russian it's quite similar to that way in English.
You can use the aspect and time that corresponds to what you're going to say better.
(at school we are also taught to reply to _Have you ever been to London?_ - _Yes, I have_ or _No, I haven't_).


englishman said:


> I'm still not sure if the native Russians agree that this example is stylistically strange, or not.


I agree, it sounds a little bit awkward.


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## Sobakus

englishman said:


> I'm still not sure if the native Russians agree that this example is stylistically strange, or not.



Again, the default answer should be in the same aspect, but when you specifically want to change the aspect to change the meaning, you are welcome to.


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## Garbuz

englishman said:


> This is beyond my level of Russian, but I think you're saying that phrases like "Вы будете понимать" have to be used when the rest of the sentence implies that some operation will occur that causes the understanding ? And that without that, the sentences sound strange ?


 
Exactly.


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## dec-sev

Garbuz said:


> Вы будете понимать; вы будете видеть; вы будете слышать и т.д. Во всех такого рода фразах речь идет об обретении способности (понимать, видеть, слышать, и т.д.) в результате некоторого действия (курса обучения, операции и т.д.)...


 Да, о приобретении или восстановлении способности делать что-либо.

A football player has been seriously injured. He is about to be operated. He asks thes urgeon: “После операции я буду играть в футбол?” or “я буду снова играть в футбол?” or even “я буду играть в футбол”. “После операции” can be omitted, as it’s clear from the context that about the player’s ability to play again after the operation.
You may also say “(После операции) я смогу играть в футбол?”


englishman said:


> ...but I think you're saying that phrases like "Выбудетепонимать" have to be used when the rest of the sentence implies that some operation will occur that causes the understanding ? And that without that, the sentences sound strange ?


Yes, in this example the operation is a “turning point” that restores the player’s ability to play football. In your original example there is no such a “turning point”.

_Пройдя данный курс обучения, вы будете понимать учителя, когда он будет говорить по-английски_.

And in this example you can substitute “будете” by “сможeте” with no change of meaning. With “сможeте” the sentence sounds better to me, but it’s a matter of taste


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## englishman

dec-sev said:


> Yes, in this example the operation is a “turning point” that restores the player’s ability to play football. In your original example there is no such a “turning point”.



But if I say:

"When I go to England, I will understand English"

I suppose that "I will understand" must be translated with "я буду понимать" ? (I'll leave the first part in English as I have no idea which Russian verb corresponds to "go" here). And in this case, there is no similar "turning point", but it still requires the imperfective future. 

There seem to be endless complexities with Russian aspect that text books gloss over.


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## Garbuz

englishman said:


> But if I say:
> 
> "When I go to England, I will understand English"
> 
> I suppose that "I will understand" must be translated with "я буду понимать" ?


 
I believe translation is not about substituting words. To give an adequate translation you have to express the same idea but by means of another language. Very often the semantic structures of words in the source and the target language don't coinside, neither do those ones of grammatical forms. It's not like a math formula.  Besides, there's also the context to be considered.


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## Sobakus

englishman said:


> But if I say:
> 
> "When I go to England, I will understand English"
> 
> I suppose that "I will understand" must be translated with "я буду понимать" ? (I'll leave the first part in English as I have no idea which Russian verb corresponds to "go" here). And in this case, there is no similar "turning point", but it still requires the imperfective future.
> 
> There seem to be endless complexities with Russian aspect that text books gloss over.



You don't have to have any kind of a turning point to use the imperfective aspect. It was just an example of when you could use it instead of the perfective one, i.e. you haven't been hearing/understanding, but after you do something about it, you "will be understanding". As someone has already mentioned here, when talking about the *process* of understanding a language, you use the imperfective, but when you talk about the eventual *result* of trying to understand, you use the perfective.


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## dec-sev

englishman said:


> ..."When I go to England, I will understand English"


I don't think it's a good example. I mean if you don't understand English the fact that you go to England won't let you understand the language. I would rephrase it this way:

_ When you have lived in England for a year you will understand English.
Когда ты проживёшь в Англии год, ты будешь понимать английскую речь_. 

In the example with the injured player the operation was a "turning point" or prerequisite. When this prerequisite is fulfilled the player will resrore his ability to play football. 
In the England example, having lived in England is a prerequisite while "ты будешь понимать" is a result: you get the ability to understand English. 
In both cases the result (restored or acquired ability) is expessed by means of будешь / буду, еtc. + verb of the imperfective aspects which may seem strange as it's usually perfective verbs that are responsible for a completed action / result, but in this particular case (if there is  a "turning point" or a prerequisite) it's more about the result rather than a process. 

_ Когда ты проживёшь в Англии год, ты будешь понимать английскую речь. 
Когда ты проживёшь в Англии год, ты сможешь понимать английскую речь._

I don't see any difference between the two. "Будешь" acts as "сможешь"(perfective verb) here: it's not about "when you have lived in England for a year you will be in process of understanding English" but rather "you'll achieve your goal of being able to understand English" (result). At least I see it this way.


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