# ler with verbs



## modus.irrealis

Hi,

I'm a little puzzled by when you use the plural forms of verbs, i.e when you have a plural subject of a verb, how do you whether you should add _-ler_ to the verb or not? For example, is it more natural to say _çocuklar geldi _or _çocuklar geldiler_? I remember reading something about that you use the plural form of the verb with animate plural subjects but not with inanimate, so does it make a difference if it had been _uçaklar_ instead of _çocuklar_ in my example?

I was also wondering if it makes a difference if you have more then one word. For example, would you say _kurtlar geldiler, koyunları yediler_ or _kurtlar geldi, koyunları yediler_ or some other possibility?


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## ukuca

The subject being human or other existences effects the verb being singular or plural. If the subject is “plants”, “animals”, “nonliving things” or “abstract concepts” ; the verb will always be in singular form. If the subject is “human in plural form”, the verb can be both plural and singular.

  “Kuşlar dallara kondular.” 
   “Kuşlar dallara kondu.”   (living creature/animal)
in your example:
"Kurtlar geldiler, koyunları yediler"  
"Kurtlar geldi, koyunları yedi."    

"Uçaklar geldiler"   WRONG
"Uçaklar geldi"   RIGHT (nonliving)

“Sevgiler gizli kaldıkça güzelleşirler.”  
  “Sevgiler gizli kaldıkça güzelleşir”   (abstract concept)

“Çocuklar geldi.” 
  “Çocuklar geldiler.”


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## Chazzwozzer

And the reason why _"Çocuklar geldi."_ is fine, maybe better, is that in short sentences like this one, the rule may be broken as your ears might find "-ler" in _all_ words not very elegant. This one is not about a grammatical rule, but the elegance of the language.

If a non-human being is anthropomorphized, the same rule for human applies.

_"Sonunda, o ormandaki bütün hayvanlar aslana karşı bir ayaklanma başlattılar."_


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## modus.irrealis

Thanks ukuca and Chazzwozzer. I see now that the difference is between human (including anthropomorphized) and non-human.


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## avok

Well, I am a bit confused. I know some people say things like "çocuklar geldiler" but I have always thought that this was wrong. It must be "çocuklar geldi", without "ler".???

In Turkish, do we make any distinction between living and non-living things ? It's foreign to me...


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## ukuca

Well, grammatically  it's not wrong and when you say that loud , it doesn't sound wrong. Maybe that's because you get used to hear or say the other way. For instance when we form a sentence in negative, I guess we generally use the plural form. 
"Çocuklar gelmediler mi?"
Still the singular form is not wrong.


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## Chazzwozzer

avok said:


> Well, I am a bit confused. I know some people say things like "çocuklar geldiler" but I have always thought that this was wrong. It must be "çocuklar geldi", without "ler".???


You think it's wrong because your ears cannot stand hearing _-ler _twice in a row!  _-ler _is supposed to be dropped in a short sentence like this.



avok said:


> In Turkish, do we make any distinction between living and non-living things ? It's foreign to me...


Turkish attaches much importance to man, so the distinctions are made between "human" and "non-human".

Well... The case with _"-ler" _is somehow controversial. I personally follow _Feyza Hepçilingirler_ and fellow experts who occupy the majority.


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## avok

ukuca said:


> Well, grammatically it's not wrong and when you say that loud , it doesn't sound wrong. Maybe that's because you get used to hear or say the other way. For instance when we form a sentence in negative, I guess we generally use the plural form.
> "Çocuklar gelmediler mi?"
> Still the singular form is not wrong.


 
Well, I think I will keep saying "çocuklar gelmedi mi?" without "ler"



Chazzwozzer said:


> You think it's wrong because your ears cannot stand hearing _-ler _twice in a row!  _-ler _is supposed to be dropped in a short sentence like this.


 
Yes, that may be the reason ( I am not convinced though)


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