# Norwegian: den / det (demonstrative/påpekende)



## mezzoforte

Okay, I think my Norwegian grammar book from 1977 is out of date. 
I'm really confused.

It says that the demonstrative "*den*" is used for common gender, and "*det*" is used for neuter.  For instance, it says: "*Din bror kjøpte den, så jeg synes du bør ta denne*".  How does that sound?

If it's correct, then why do we use the expression "*Hvordan går det*" and not "*Hvordan går den*"?

But then why do you say (as my book does): "*Den som finner uret, vil få en belønning*" and not "*Det som finner uret, vil få en belønning*".

(This makes me also wonder about "*slik*" and "*slikt*".)


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## mezzoforte

Sorry.... I get it now.  You use "*det/dette*" when it's antecedant is a predicate noun, and it's not a demonstrative in that case.  Using "*den/denne*" (as appropriate) in that instance is as a demonstrative.

How would you compare these two sentences: "*Dette er min sønn som studerer på universitetet*" and "*Denne er min sønn som studerer på universitetet.*"

Does the second somehow add more emphasis that it's _this_ son and not the younger son?  Can the first mean that the son is not even in the room; you're just saying a fact about him?  What would it mean if you used "*Det*" or "*Den*".

LOL

Thank you!


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## hanne

mezzoforte said:


> If it's correct, then why do we use the expression "*Hvordan går det*" and not "*Hvordan går den*"?


"Det" here is a very unspecific "it" - so unspecific that it doesn't have a gender. Or something... In cases like this, we (all scandis) use neutral gender (and I believe this even extends to all languages which have a neutral gender - "Wie geht's?").
A similar topic was treated in another thread a while back... if anyone can find it...



mezzoforte said:


> But then why do you say (as my book does): "*Den som finner uret, vil få en belønning*" and not "*Det som finner uret, vil få en belønning*".


"Den" in this case refers to a person - "whoever". A person is common gender (people can't be neutral gender). Using "det" would correspond to saying "whatever finds the watch...".

[edit]too slow typing, but I'll just leave my reply anyway [/edit]


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## mezzoforte

Wow... you are fast... I've just updated it again (with another question), lol


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## cevita

Since hanne asnwered your first question i'll answer the second one 



> How would you compare these two sentences: "Dette er min sønn som studerer på universitetet" and "Denne er min sønn som studerer på universitetet."



Dette er min sønn som studerer på universitetet =
This is my son who is studying at the university

Denne er min sønn som studerer på universitetet =
This one is my son who is studying at the unoversity



> Does the second somehow add more emphasis that it's this son and not the younger son?


You can't use the second one because "denne" needs a noun right after it, if not it means "this one / this thing". It sounds like you're saying "This (thing) is my son."



> Can the first mean that the son is not even in the room; you're just saying a fact about him?


No, the son is in the room. If not he (the father) has a picture of him. When saying "dette er min (something)" the object has to be present visually.



> What would it mean if you used "Det" or "Den".


"Det er min sønn som studerer på universitetet" can have two meanings.
Either
"That (meaning "the person over there") is my son who is studiyng at the university."
or
"It is my son who is studying at the university."

You can't say "Den er min sønn som studerer på universitetet". It is incorrect and doesn't make sense.


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## mezzoforte

Perfect!  Thank you!!  And I finally got a Norwegian-English translation dictionary (from the library).  It is a Collins.


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## Avadon

Hello fellow board members,

I've got another question according to det / den. I just started to learn Norwegian, and the thing I learned so far is, that *den* is for masculine that / it and *det* is for neuter that / it.

When I was browsing the internet for more resources, I stumbled on the youtube video in which the guy wrote:
"Hvem er det?"
"Det er lærer."

Why isn't it *Den er læreren*, if lærer is masculine, not neuter? And also why isn't it a definite form, if we stress it, by using "this"?

What confuses me as well is what both hanne and cevita say:


> "Den" in this case refers to a person - "whoever". A person is common gender (people can't be neutral gender). Using "det" would correspond to saying "whatever finds the watch...".



So if "det" would mean "whatever (NOT whoever) finds the watch", why.....



> "Det er min sønn som studerer på universitetet" can have two meanings.
> Either
> "That (meaning "the person over there") is my son who is studiyng at the university."
> or
> "It is my son who is studying at the university."
> 
> *You can't say "Den er min sønn som studerer på universitetet". It is incorrect and doesn't make sense.*



"Den er min..." doesn't make sense, when it actually is about a person, *who cannot be neuter*, and "det" is for neuter?

Thanks!


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## cevita

> I just started to learn Norwegian, and the thing I learned so far is, that den is for masculine that / it and det is for neuter that / it.




The tricky thing with Norwegian is all the exceptions to the rules 
Excellent question though!




> When I was browsing the internet for more resources, I stumbled on the youtube video in which the guy wrote:
> "Hvem er det?"
> "Det er lærer."




Do you have a link to the video?
"Det er lærer" is gramatically incorrect ("That is teacher"). It also sounds weird if you say it out loud. The correct thing to say would be "Det er læreren" ("That is the teacher").


I have two answers to your questions, all though I am not 100% sure:
1. In English you say "who is it"? ("Hvem er det?") when you don't see the person but talking directly to him, right? (Asking someone on the phone, someone ringing the doorbell etc). And when you see the person in the room talking indirectly about him, you'd say "who is that (standing over there)?"
In Norwegian we say "who is it?" ("hvem er det?") wether we see the person or not.

Det er læreren = It is the teacher / that is the teacher

2. It might have to do with unpersonal subject in the sentence due to the fact there is a logical subject (teacher). I do not know if you say unpersonal subject (upersonlig subjekt) and logical subject (logisk subjekt) in English..

Det er læreren (læreren=logical subject).


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## Avadon

Cevita, thanks for your reply.

It sheds some light on the problem, I'm still not 100% sure, though  To put it in a nutshell, can we assume that if we use phrases like "who is it?" (we don't know who, that's why we use *det*), we have to answer the question using the very same *det* as well? (det er... sth)

If so, it would be a similar rule as it is in English for asking and answering different questions using auxiliary verbs , e.g. *Do* you know... Yes I *do*...; *Are* you there? Yes, I *am*..., and so on.


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## cevita

> To put it in a nutshell, can we assume that if we use phrases like "who is it?" (we don't know who, that's why we use *det), we have to answer the question using the very same det as well? (det er... sth)*



Yeah, spot on! (imo)


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## Avadon

Ok, cool. It makes sense 

After doing some research I now understand that it's more like a fixed phrase "this is..." which is a single element, not connected to the noun itself, so that's why there's no agreement between these two, am I right?


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## sjiraff

Just to add to what Avadon was asking, if you're asking "Find out whose car it is", which is correct "Finn ut hvem sin bil det er" or "hvem sin bil den er"?


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## raumar

sjiraff said:


> Just to add to what Avadon was asking, if you're asking "Find out whose car it is", which is correct "Finn ut hvem sin bil det er" or "hvem sin bil den er"?



Here it's "det" -- just as "Finn ut hvem det er" if we are talking about a person.


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## sjiraff

raumar said:


> Here it's "det" -- just as "Finn ut hvem det er" if we are talking about a person.



Ah I see thanks, and this is because it's sort of unknown? I was always under the impression it was right to say "hvem sin er denne/den?" It can be a bit confusing sometimes, because I have seen examples when even though the object was known and the gender of it, they still said "finn ut hvem det er sin".


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## raumar

You are right, you can use "denne". Especially if you want to emphasize that it is this object and not the other; "Find out whose car this one is." 

It depends, I think, on how it is said: which word is the stress on?

Finn ut hvem sin bil det er. (the stress is on "bil", no stress on "det")
Finn ut hvem sin bil denne er. (ths stress is on "denne")


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## sjiraff

raumar said:


> You are right, you can use "denne". Especially if you want to emphasize that it is this object and not the other; "Find out whose car this one is."
> 
> It depends, I think, on how it is said: which word is the stress on?
> 
> Finn ut hvem sin bil det er. (the stress is on "bil", no stress on "det")
> Finn ut hvem sin bil denne er. (ths stress is on "denne")



That makes sense, thanks for the explaination!


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