# Combining なる and 過ぎる



## notnotchris

This is something I've been wondering about for quite some time.

In Japanese, you have the construction

adj. + なる
i.e. 寒くなる
and the construction

adj. + 過ぎる
i.e. 寒すぎる

Is there a way to combine the two? I can't think of any that sound right.

寒くなりすぎる
寒すぎになる

Are either of these correct, or is there a 3rd, better option?

Thanks, all


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## cheshire

Both sentences are correct grammatically. Some might say the second is wrong, but then they don't know about language.


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## Flaminius

Given my poor experience with Japanese —in comparison to the huge corpus thereof, I shan't say that no native speaker ever says 寒すぎになる but, to echo one of my idols in WR, you won't be very wrong if you stick to the former 寒くなりすぎる.

No grammar rules bar 寒すぎになる just like 食べすぎになる, 飲みすぎになる, 太りすぎになる or even 固すぎになる.  The first one is less immediately understood by natives simply because 寒すぎ is not as ripe an idiomatic noun as other examples, which can be used in other constructions; such as 食べすぎに注意しよう, 飲みすぎは健康によくない, あの三人は、太りすぎだ, 卵の固すぎは嫌いだ and so on.

A word is not only what the dictionary tells, nor is a construction only what the grammar handbook can explain.  Every language has a hiatus between what is theoretically possible and what actually is.  I hope our discussion here makes a good reference to the actual usage, which WordReference is all about.


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## notnotchris

Thanks Flam & Cheshire, that is quite clear now.


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## cheshire

冷房の設定で１８度にするのは寒くなりすぎますのでおやめください。

信じられない、１８度！寒くなりすぎるからやめてね。

冷房の設定で１８度にするのは寒すぎになりますのでおやめください。

信じられない、１８度！寒くすぎになるからやめてね。


Let's not be blinded by the splendor of the corpus. I notice people tend to attach more importance to the corpus than is worth.


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## notnotchris

cheshire said:


> 冷房の設定で１８度にするのは寒くなりすぎますのでおやめください。
> 
> 信じられない、１８度！寒くなりすぎるからやめてね。
> 
> Let's not be blinded by the splendor of the corpus. I notice people tend to attach more importance to the corpus than is worth.


 
Cheshire, where is this corpus you speak of? A Japanese text corpus?

Thanks for the example, by the way... it does sound quite natural. なりすぎる it is


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## Aoyama

Interesting discussion.
One may question if :
-寒くなりすぎる and
-食べすぎになる, 飲みすぎになる, 寒すぎになる
can be placed on the same level.
As for 固すぎになる, for some reason, I found this unnatural and would rather use :固くなりすぎる.
I would also not use :寒すぎになる.
That may have to do with the fact that SAMUI and KATAI are adjectives and TABERU and NOMU are verbs (gut feeling, FLAM or Cheshire may comment on that).
For 太りすぎになる, it is even more interesting because here we have FUTORU (verb) and FUTOI (adjective).
I would say that 1)太りすぎになる would refer to the adjective whereas 2)太くなりすぎる would refer to the verb. The meaning would then be different :
1) would apply to a living being (become too *fat*)
2) would apply to a thing (become too *thick*)
Any comment ?


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## cheshire

cheshire said:


> 冷房の設定で１８度にするのは寒くなりすぎますのでおやめください。
> 
> 信じられない、１８度！寒くなりすぎるからやめてね。
> 
> 冷房の設定で１８度にするのは寒すぎになりますのでおやめください。
> 
> 信じられない、１８度！寒くすぎになるからやめてね。
> 
> 
> Let's not be blinded by the splendor of the corpus. I notice people tend to attach more importance to the corpus than is worth.


I can no longer edit my previous post, so let me. 

If two forms of saying are possible, one of the less used form tends to be considered "unnatural" or "even wrong."
I call into attention this "bi-polarization" of recognition here. Most people may feel it strange if Michael Jackson plays the flute. But there's no rule that say Michael Jackson's playing the flute is a funny thing. People just feel it.


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## osukaru

Never heard 寒くなりすぎる or 寒すぎになる　in Japan. 
I remember once I said すごすぎる(すごい) and all my friends laughed at me!!!!
Gramatically speaking, It may be correct, but NOBODY speaks that way.
It sounds strange ( like Michael Jackson playing the flute)!!!
So, here is my advice: If you dont want to feel embarrased while speaking in Japan you better avoid those kind of "unnatural" structures...

失礼致しました。


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## AT84

osukaru said:


> Never heard 寒くなりすぎる or 寒すぎになる　in Japan.
> I remember once I said すごすぎる(すごい) and all my friends laughed at me!!!!
> Gramatically speaking, It may be correct, but NOBODY speaks that way.
> It sounds strange ( like Michael Jackson playing the flute)!!!
> So, here is my advice: If you dont want to feel embarrased while speaking in Japan you better avoid those kind of "unnatural" structures...
> 
> 失礼致しました。


 

I beg to differ. I said sugosugiru/sugosugi during my stay in Japan to my Japanese friends, and they accepted it. I've heard them say it too. Like it's been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread, it's uncommon, but it is not incorrect. Michael Jackson playing the flute may sound strange and silly, but if he actually wanted to he *could*. Nobody's going to stop him really. It just seems... unlikely that he would.

On the other hand... if you said something like "inu wa watashi no naka ni imasu" when you meant to say "inu wa watashi no ie no naka ni imasu"... now *that* is embarrassing.


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## Captain Haddock

すごい already has a superlative meaning, so it's hard to see why you'd want to add すぎる. 

寒すぎる is certainly possible, but 寒い already suggests the meaning "colder than desired", so the すぎる isn't generally needed. When it's cold but you like it that way, the word is すずしい.

The secret to passing the JLPT may be grammar, but the secret to speaking Japanese is to say things the same way they do.


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## Aoyama

> 寒い already suggests the meaning "colder than desired",





> When it's cold but you like it that way, the word is すずしい.


That is an interesting point of view, though a bit out of topic.
To me 寒い is cold, すずしい is _fresh_ , not as cold as 寒い  ... But the remark is not unacceptable ...


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## osukaru

Captain Haddock said:


> すごい already has a superlative meaning, so it's hard to see why you'd want to add すぎる.
> 
> 寒すぎる is certainly possible, but 寒い already suggests the meaning "colder than desired", so the すぎる isn't generally needed. When it's cold but you like it that way, the word is すずしい.
> 
> The secret to passing the JLPT may be grammar, but the secret to speaking Japanese is to say things the same way they do.



I absolutely agree with you. 
That's why I dislike JLPT.  (I got first level 一級)


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## Flaminius

osukaru said:


> I remember once I said すごすぎる(すごい) and all my friends laughed at me!!!!


Like *AT84* has already said, both すごすぎる and すごすぎ is possible.  They belong to a casual youth register.  If I had been there to hear you utter them, I might have joined your friends in expressing a total amazement at your passion, jealous of scooping up the minutest detail of Japanese.    Whether or not bursting into laughter accurately conveyed it is, ahem, an entirely different cultural matter but I assume part of the reason is that youth registers tend to be labelled as frivolous, inaccurate, sensational, imprecise and other 100 negative adjectives by pot-bellied old gits and tarts who are nearing retirement from their jobs or lives.

Back to the forms themselves, すごすぎる and すごすぎ are used in a raw sense of outstanding, amazing or awesome:
オスカルさんの日本語はすごすぎる。
オスカルさんの日本語、すごすぎ。
Oscar, your Japanese is awesome.

This illustrates how _-sugiru_ and _-sugi_ have come to serve as an intensifier of adjecitves; "very."  Obviously, not everyone is happy with every instance of this kind of usage but I think it is clearly already that 寒すぎる/寒すぎ or 硬すぎる/硬すぎ is to be understood as "very cold" or "very hard" instead of "too cold/hard" for an unspecified purpose.


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## osukaru

Flaminius said:


> Like *AT84* has already said, both すごすぎる and すごすぎ is possible.  They belong to a casual youth register.  If I had been there to hear you utter them, I might have joined your friends in expressing a total amazement at your passion, jealous of scooping up the minutest detail of Japanese.    Whether or not bursting into laughter accurately conveyed it is, ahem, an entirely different cultural matter but I assume part of the reason is that youth registers tend to be labelled as frivolous, inaccurate, sensational, imprecise and other 100 negative adjectives by pot-bellied old gits and tarts who are nearing retirement from their jobs or lives.
> 
> Back to the forms themselves, すごすぎる and すごすぎ are used in a raw sense of outstanding, amazing or awesome:
> オスカルさんの日本語はすごすぎる。
> オスカルさんの日本語、すごすぎ。
> Oscar, your Japanese is awesome.
> 
> This illustrates how _-sugiru_ and _-sugi_ have come to serve as an intensifier of adjecitves; "very."  Obviously, not everyone is happy with every instance of this kind of usage but I think it is clearly already that 寒すぎる/寒すぎ or 硬すぎる/硬すぎ is to be understood as "very cold" or "very hard" instead of "too cold/hard" for an unspecified purpose.



Hello... 
I think you explained better than me!!  
But, what about saying オスカルの日本語、すっごい　instead of オスカルの日本語はすごすぎる。？　
If we add a っ　to a word it get more intensified than its former meaning. Usually because we　are very impressed by the fact we want to describe、for example 安っ！　

I would rather say すっごい　than すごすぎ　... don't know why!!!  It 's just a feeling!!!!!  　　I think it may sound "more common" than すごすぎ。

I think that "すごすぎる" is used in Japan usually when someone wants to make fun of something or somebody(by making jokes), or ironical and sarcastic remarks.... 

What do you think?

Thank you in advance!!


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## Aoyama

The colloquial use of すごすぎる (すごすぎ), can also be translated as "too much", as in  " you're too much". For some funny reason, French uses this idiom also : tu es _too much, _c'est_ too much_ . A rather recent usage .


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## Captain Haddock

Aoyama said:


> That is an interesting point of view, though a bit out of topic.
> To me 寒い is cold, すずしい is _fresh_ , not as cold as 寒い  ... But the remark is not unacceptable ...



Well, think of it this way. When you go outside in the winter and exclaim "寒い！", you say that because it's uncomfortably cold. If you walk outside and note that it's すずしい, you're enjoying it. Your friend might still think it's 寒い if he's not wearing warm clothing. 

I think it's on-topic, because many Japanese adjectives have no need for すぎる. They already mean "too much".

Another example:
だぶだぶ means "too loose" in regards to clothing.
ゆったり means "acceptably loose".
So if your pants are too loose, they are just だぶだぶ, with no need to add すぎる. And ゆったりすぎる wouldn't even make sense outside of some ironic meaning.


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## Aoyama

Well, Captain Haddock, I must say you've got some point here. A point that has to come from a non-Japanese speaker, but nonetheless very pertinent.
To add some fuel to the debate, here is a sentence concocted by one of my student :
スキーは寒くなければ出来ないけど、今日は寒すぎてスキー出来ないよ！


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## osukaru

Aoyama said:


> Well, Captain Haddock, I must say you've got some point here. A point that has to come from a non-Japanese speaker, but nonetheless very pertinent.
> To add some fuel to the debate, here is a sentence concocted by one of my student :
> スキーは寒くなければ出来ないけど、今日は寒すぎてスキー出来ないよ！



Hi! I think you've arrived to the wrong debate.
We are discussing about combinig なる　and すぎる。
For example, "寒くなりすぎる" or "寒すぎになる" instead of just saying "寒すぎ" ,
 "寒すぎる" or "寒くなる" ... you got it??


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## cheshire

Captain Haddock said:


> *すごい already has a superlative meaning*, so it's hard to see why you'd want to add すぎる.
> 
> 寒すぎる is certainly possible, but 寒い already suggests the meaning "colder than desired", so *the すぎる isn't generally needed.* When it's cold but you like it that way, the word is すずしい.


Tonnerre de Brest! That's not true!


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