# Urdu: decades...like "1950's" etc?



## teaboy

Is there a way to speak of a decade, such as "during the 1950's" or "before the 1890's" etc?


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## Faylasoof

Decades in Urdu is دہائی _dahaaii_. <In the 1950s> would be _<unniis sau pachaas ki dahaiyyu.n mein_> = <in the decades of the 1950s>. 

... and it is _d*a*haaii _not _d*o*haaii_ = cry for mercy / help! As in: _maulaa d*o*haaii ho!_ = Have mercy / Save me Lord!


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## teaboy

Faylasoof said:


> Decades in Urdu is دہائی _dahaaii_. <In the 1950s> would be _<unniis sau pachaas ki dahaiyyu.n mein_> = <in the decades of the 1950s>.
> 
> ... and it is _d*a*haaii _not _d*o*haaii_ = cry for mercy / help! As in: _maulaa d*o*haaii ho!_ = Have mercy / Save me Lord!



But the 1950's constitutes one decade.  Shouldn't it be _<unniis sau pachaas ki dahaaii mein_> ?


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## Faylasoof

Good question! I myself would say this <dahaaii mei.n> but I'm seeing the pluralized form of this plural! Many dictionaries are also translate دہائی as either <decade> or <decade*s*>.
It seems that we may have a case of جَمعُ الجَمعۃ as for وُجوہ and وُجوہات -  a double plural .

You can see this usage here, here and elsewhere on the net. Just search with <دہایوں>! 

Edit: Correction! If you are talking about just one decade then it is دہائی but if you are talking of more i.e. 20 years or > then it'll be as the examples I give above. It is from the Persian دہ = ten from which we make دہا = tens.


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## BP.

_dahaaii _is fine in your example. That's how I'd say it myself. People probably pluralize while trying to translate the idea of the '50*s*.

These words are from the number line:
10 - _dah _-> _dahaaii_. Decade.
100 - _Sad _-> _Sadii_. Century.
Millenium-_alf_- is an exception in that it comes from Arabic.

Similarly, in a context different from measuring time, 1 _- ek _(_ik, yak_ etc) -> _ikaaii_. Means 'uint' (ones) e.g. _wazan paemaaii ki ikaaii _kg_ hae_.


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## teaboy

Thanks to you both for the clarification!


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> _dahaaii _is fine in your example. That's how I'd say it myself.





BelligerentPacifist said:


> People probably pluralize while trying to translate the idea of the '50*s*.
> 
> These words are from the number line:
> 10 - _dah _-> _dahaaii_. Decade.
> 100 - _Sad _-> _Sadii_. Century.
> Millenium-_alf_- is an exception in that it comes from Arabic.
> 
> Similarly, in a context different from measuring time, 1 _- ek _(_ik, yak_ etc) -> _ikaaii_. Means 'uint' (ones) e.g. _wazan paemaaii ki ikaaii _kg_ hae_.


 Yes I think so. I too feel it is more accurate to say just _dahaaii_. 

Anyway, for the related millennium we can use either the Arabic ألفية alfiyah or the Persian هزاره hezaareh - but we would probably will turn it into hazaarhaaii ہزارہائی (!)- or we could use ہَزار سالہ , again from Persian. 

I’m not sure ifہزارہائی is being used. Found only one hit! Here, and that too means <thousands of > and not a millennium.


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## cweeetguy2000

Just an off spring, adding my bit to this conversation of decade, in hindi it would go like

Decade = Dashak (दशक)

so it would be like 1950 ke dashak mein or 50 ke dashak mein.


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## BP.

Thanks cw2k.


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## Faylasoof

While we are doing this cg2000, could you also let us have the _shuddh_ Hindi for <century> and <millennium>. Thanks!


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## cweeetguy2000

Yeah Sure,
 
Century = Shataabdi (शताब्दी)
millennium = yug (युग)


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## Faylasoof

Interesting! But is this pronounced _yug_ or _yog_ (a short or slightly longer vowel)? The same that some people write as yoge, e.g. _kalii yoge_?


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## cweeetguy2000

It will be pronounced as yug with shorter 'उ' vowel as in 'tum' (तुम) and the longer (ऊ) one is used in the words like 'soona' (सूऩा)


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## Faylasoof

Oh yes! It is obvious now that I look at the vowel sign below. Thanks!


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## marrish

This is an interesting multilanguage thread, but I haven't noticed _3ashrah عشرہ_ being mentioned for Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> This is an interesting multilanguage thread, but I haven't noticed _3ashrah عشرہ_ being mentioned for Urdu.



A good point well made! One of the BBC headlines is "shiddat-pasandii ke chaar 3ashre". And the Urdu Times News headline is, "ek 3ashre meN masaajid kii ta3daad meN 74% izaafah". Another one says..3ashroN pahle Do'iche vele shu3bah-i-Urdu kaisaa thaa? (Deutsche Welle) عشروں پہلے ڈوئچے ویلے شعبہء اردو کیسا تھا؟
*
*


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## marrish

^Very nice examples of its usage, Qureshpor SaaHib, the thing which I neglected myself.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> This is an interesting multilanguage thread, but I haven't noticed _3ashrah عشرہ_ being mentioned for Urdu.


 The query was about _decades_ and for us certainly _3ashrah _عشرہ is not used with this meaning! We always use _3ashrah _عشرہ to mean 10 days:

_mahiine kaa paihlaa 3ashrah _= The first ten days of the month

_mahiine kaa aaxirii 3ashrah _= The last ten days of the month

Even if you were to say: _saal ka paihlaa 3ashrah_, _our_ mind would always go to the first _ten days _of the year, not ten months. That is how we understand it. Perhaps becasue we always think of _3ashra-e-muHarram _= First ten days of the first month of the Islamic calender. Standard usage for us.

We'v always distinguished between _3ashrah _= 10 days (literally: 10, usually for us 10 days) and دہائی _dahaa2ii_ = 10 years = decade.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> The query was about _decades_ and for us certainly _3ashrah _عشرہ is not used with this meaning! We always use _3ashrah _عشرہ to mean 10 days:
> 
> _mahiine kaa paihlaa 3ashrah _= The first ten days of the month
> 
> _mahiine kaa aaxirii 3ashrah _= The last ten days of the month
> 
> Even if you were to say: _saal ka paihlaa 3ashrah_, _our_ mind would always go to the first _ten days _of the year, not ten months. That is how we understand it. Perhaps becasue we always think of _3ashra-e-muHarram _= First ten days of the first month of the Islamic calender. Standard usage for us.
> 
> We'v always distinguished between _3ashrah _= 10 days (literally: 10, usually for us 10 days) and دہائی _dahaa2ii_ = 10 years = decade.



Faylasoof SaaHib, I agree to the fullest with your explanation - it is indeed the standard usage as you present it, especially in the Muslim context. My input (without examples) and Qureshpor SaaHib's one (with examples) illustrates what appears to be a frequent usage in the Urdu media of various pedigree, referring to decades. This usage being popularized deserves being mentioned here in this thread - with the necessary reservations which you made!

When I have some more free time, I'll look for this usage in sources other than on-line press.


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, I agree to the fullest with your explanation - it is indeed the standard usage as you present it, especially in the Muslim context. My input (without examples) and Qureshpor SaaHib's one (with examples) illustrates what appears to be a frequent usage in the Urdu media of various pedigree, referring to decades. This usage being popularized deserves being mentioned here in this thread - with the necessary reservations which you made!
> 
> When I have some more free time, I'll look for this usage in sources other than on-line press.


marrish SaaHib, I feel this usage of _3ashrah_ for _decade_ might be something of a recent innovation. You could call it_ journalese Urdu_! 

I look forward to other sources from you and others. The point is BBC Urdu can't always be relied on. I see much variation in both the quality / style of Urdu presented there.


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, I feel this usage of _3ashrah_ for _decade_ might be something of a recent innovation. You could call it_ journalese Urdu_!
> 
> I look forward to other sources from you and others. The point is BBC Urdu can't always be relied on. I see much variation in both the quality / style of Urdu presented there.



Many a times the usage and yes, style of some BBC's Urdu text drives me furious, but they are still doing a great deal better job than online services of Urdu press from PK, however this usage is not only found on BBC, but also on other services.

With regard to the recentness of this meaning I have to differ, and the first source which I could find is none other than old Platts:



> P
> _عشره_ _ʻashara, vulg. ʻashra (for A. __
> عشرة__ ʻasharat; see ʻashr), adj. & s.m. Ten;—*a decade;* ten days; the first ten days of Moḥarram (see dahā, and ʻāshūrā)._



This meaning even precedes the one of ten days.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> marrish SaaHib, I feel this usage of _3ashrah_ for _decade_ might be something of a recent innovation. You could call it_ journalese Urdu_!
> 
> I look forward to other sources from you and others. The point is BBC Urdu can't always be relied on. I see much variation in both the quality / style of Urdu presented there.



chihre se 3iyaaN hai kih javaanii meN abhii kam hai
do saal abhii *3asharah*-i-saanii meN bhii kam hai

Anis


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Many a times the usage and yes, style of some BBC's Urdu text drives me furious, but they are still doing a great deal better job than online services of Urdu press from PK, however this usage is not only found on BBC, but also on other services.
> 
> With regard to the recentness of this meaning I have to differ, and the first source which I could find is none other than old Platts:
> 
> 
> P
> _عشره__ʻashara, vulg. ʻashra (for A. __
> عشرة__ ʻasharat; see ʻashr), adj. & s.m. Ten;—*a decade; ten days*; the first ten days of Moḥarram (see dahā, and ʻāshūrā)._
> 
> 
> This meaning even precedes the one of ten days.


 Yes I saw Platts later and he mentions both _decade_ and _ten days_! So the use is not new but I wouldn't say the _decade_ _usage precedes ten __days _just because the order he puts the two down in! 

We've of course been here before. Some of the usage Platts has is now dated. Just been looking at other Urdu lexicons (muhazzab ul lughaat, nasiim ul lughaat etc.) the word _3ashrah _= ten days, and that is how we use it. 

As I said earlier _3ashrah_ literally means 10 so we may conclude that its usage seems to have been loser once but for us _3ashrah_ means 10 days while _dahaa’ii _is used for a decade. In this way we actually avoid confusing the two, which I think is better anyway!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> chihre se 3iyaaN hai kih javaanii meN abhii kam hai
> do saal abhii *3asharah*-i-saanii meN bhii kam hai
> 
> Anis


 I do recall these lines, but ..

_3ashra-e-awwal = First 10 days of the month_
*3ashra-e-thaanii* = *Second (middle) 10 days of the month*
_3ashra-e-thaalith = Third (last) 10 days of the month

This is how we use it!_


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> chihre se 3iyaaN hai kih javaanii meN abhii kam hai
> do saal abhii *3asharah*-i-saanii meN bhii kam hai
> 
> Anis


I must admit that _3ashrah _meaning decade is new to me also. However, thanks to Qureshpor saahab, now we have both literary and journalistic examples, validating this usage. There's no way to interpret the second _misra3 _above, but by assuming _3ashrah_=decade. 

Sounds like a slam dunk to me, QP sb. Great finds!!


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> I must admit that _3ashrah _meaning decade is new to me also. However, thanks to Qureshpor saahab, now we have both literary and journalistic examples. There's no way to interpret the second _misra3 _above but by assuming _3ashrah_=decade.
> 
> Sounds like a slam dunk to me, QP sb. Great finds!!


 We may have a problem if we confuse the two usages otherwise I don't see a real problem. Platts mentions both _decade_ and _ten days _and yes Anis was older but we can also look to see if he or others used _3ashrah_ for ten days! I bet you'll find that too! In fact, I know they used it this way!

I looked up more Urdu lexicons like 20th Century (and 21st Century) Urdu-English Dictionary and here too _3ashrah_ = 10 days and _dahaa’ii_ = decade. 

Now if we look back at Platts we see he mentions _dahaa_ as well. We use its derivative _dahaa’ii _for _decade _and I think we should keep the two (_3ashrah_ and _dahaa’ii_) separate if we are to avoid confusion! 

….. but what can one say of a language and a people that do not always seem to have a firm grip on time!


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> We may have a problem if we confuse the two usages otherwise I don't see a real problem. Platts mentions both _decade_ and _ten days _and yes Anis was older but we can also look to see if he or others used _3ashrah_ for ten days! I bet you'll find that too! In fact, I know they used it this way!
> 
> I looked up more Urdu lexicons like 20th Century (and 21st Century) Urdu-English Dictionary and here too _3ashrah_ = 10 days and _dahaa’ii_ = decade.
> 
> Now if we look back at Platts we see he mentions _dahaa_ as well. We use its derivative _dahaa’ii _for _decade _and I think we should keep the two (_3ashrah_ and _dahaa’ii_) separate if we are to avoid confusion!
> 
> ….. but what can one say of a language and a people that do not always seem to have a firm grip on time!



Thanks for the clarification, Faylasoof saahab. However, from my perspective, _3ashrah _meaning 10 days is a well-known (_ma3ruuf_) meaning of the word, that needs no corroboration. It is part of everyday language (especially during Ramadan). So what needed proof was _only _that _3ashrah _also means decade.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I do recall these lines, but ..
> 
> _3ashra-e-awwal = First 10 days of the month_
> *3ashra-e-thaanii* = *Second (middle) 10 days of the month*
> _3ashra-e-thaalith = Third (last) 10 days of the month
> 
> This is how we use it!_



According to Nur-ul-LuGhaat...

*3asharah *is given the following meanings:

1) das

2) mahiine kaa dasvaaN din

3) muHarram kii dasviiN taariix

*3ashrah-i-avval*

1) mahiine ke pahle das roz

2) ibtidaa'ii das saal
*
3asharah-i-saanii
*
1) mahiine ke duusre das roz

2) 3umr ke gyaarahveN saal se biisveN saal tak kaa zamaanah

*3asharaat
*
dahaaiyaaN jo kul nau haiN..das, biis, tiis, chaaliis, pachaas, saaTh, sattar, assii, navve

Taking all this into account as well as Anis's shi3r and Platts entry leads one to conclude that *3asharah* has had the meaning of a *decade* for some while now!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> I looked up more Urdu lexicons like 20th Century (and 21st Century) Urdu-English Dictionary and here too _3ashrah_ = 10 days and _dahaa’ii_ = decade.
> 
> ….. but what can one say of a language and a people that do not always seem to have a firm grip on time!




Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives the meaning of "dahaa'ii" as "das ke 3adad kaa martabah" and there is no mention of it having anything to do with a period of ten years. As children, when we were learning mathematics, for units, tens etc, we would say..

ikaa'ii, dahaa'ii, saiNkRah, hazaar, dah hazaar, laakh, dah laakh, karoR, dah karoR, arab, dah arab...

There is no doubt that "dahaa'ii" has come to mean "a decade" as well. But, I do believe 3asharah predates it.

​What language? Which people?


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> Thanks for the clarification, Faylasoof saahab. However, from my perspective, _3ashrah _meaning 10 days is a well-known (_ma3ruuf_) meaning of the word, that needs no corroboration. It is part of everyday language (especially during Ramadan). So what needed proof was _only _that _3ashrah _also means decade.


 I fully understood your point! What I was saying was that we need to be careful of usage in order to avoid confusion. So if we start using _3ashrah_ to mean both decade and 10 days now then we'll only make matters worse. Context may tell us what is meant and in Anis' lines above it is clear what he means just as what is meant by _3ashrah _here:

عشرہ ماہ ِ عزا نالہ كشی میں گذرے
سال بھر شہ كے غلاموں كو خوشی میں گذرے

انیس

　
*3ashra-e-maah-e-3azaa *naalah kashii meN guZre
saal bhar shah* ke g-hulaamoN ko xushii men guZre
Anis

[* pronounced_ shaih _!]

Platts' and Anis’ times they seem to have freely used _3ashrah_ to mean anything to do with either ten days or ten years! Not a good idea I'd say! Besides, poets have to think of rhyme & meter so they use whatever fits best! In speech and prose we are not under this constraint and if precision is required then I wouldn't use the same word for both time periods. So I'm not for _3ashrah_ to mean a decade!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Farhang-i-Asifiyyah gives the meaning of "dahaa'ii" as "das ke 3adad kaa martabah" and there is no mention of it having anything to do with a period of ten years. As children, when we were learning mathematics, for units, tens etc, we would say..
> 
> ikaa'ii, dahaa'ii, saiNkRah, hazaar, dah hazaar, laakh, dah laakh, karoR, dah karoR, arab, dah arab...
> 
> There is no doubt that "dahaa'ii" has come to mean "a decade" as well. But, I do believe 3asharah predates it.
> 
> ​What language? Which people?


 I think you'll agree that we've moved beyond Farhang-i-Asifiyyah. I gave you the references above! No need to return to the Neolithic era!
You've answered your own question in your own post (#28) above!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> According to Nur-ul-LuGhaat...
> 
> *3asharah *is given the following meanings:
> 
> 1) das
> 
> 2) mahiine kaa dasvaaN din
> 
> 3) *.......
> 
> *Taking all this into account as well as Anis's shi3r and Platts entry leads one to conclude that *3asharah* has had the meaning of a *decade* for some while now!


 Please read my posts # 23, #26 & #30. I've made my position very clear both to past usage and that of the present.


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> I fully understood your point! What I was saying was that we need to be careful of usage in order to avoid confusion. So if we start using _3ashrah_ to mean both decade and 10 days now then we'll only make matters worse.



True, but that's a different debate. If a word is in use and well-understood, it doesn't matter how you or I caution about its confusion-causing potential. Languages cannot be controlled like that and words have lives of their own. After all, a word like _ghaRii _can mean a moment and a watch without causing much confusion. So perhaps _3ashrah _can have two similar meanings too.



Faylasoof said:


> عشرہ ماہ ِ عزا نالہ كشی میں گذرے
> سال بھر شہ كے غلاموں *كو *خوشی میں گذرے
> 
> انیس
> 
> *3ashra-e-maah-e-3azaa *naalah kashii meN guZre
> saal bhar shah* ke g-hulaamoN ko xushii men guZre
> Anis
> 
> [* pronounced_ shaih _!]


Thanks for the _shi3r_. Curious use of _ko _above. My _naaqis aql_ would have expected _kaa_.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> True, but that's a different debate. If a word is in use and well-understood, it doesn't matter how you or I caution about its confusion-causing potential. Languages cannot be controlled like that and words have lives of their own. After all, a word like _ghaRii _can mean a moment and a watch without causing much confusion. So perhaps _3ashrah _can have two similar meanings too.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the _shi3r_. Curious use of _ko _above. My _naaqis aql_ would have expected _kaa_.



This is quite common usage. "ko" means "ke liye"

Indeed! 

ba3d muddat ke yih *ghaRii* aa'ii

Is the poet speaking to the postman whilst the package is being delivered? No..

aap aa'e to zindagii aa'ii!!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof SaaHib, you have made your position clear and with respect, as always, I am saying that this is my position.

You have used the word “We” several times in your posts and I understand exactly what is implied. However, it has to be said that your “We” is only a part of the whole picture because there are a number of other “We”s that also need to be taken into account if we are to appreciate the whole picture. Urdu is not a homogenous language spoken by one homogenous people.

“3asharah”, as everyone is well aware, has the basic meaning of “ten”. In Urdu, it has taken a specific meaning of "ten days" (as in the month of MuHarram). But, as Platts (1884) and Nur-ul-LuGhaat (1917) have indicated, this word has also taken on an extended meaning of a “decade” and the latter work quotes, as an authority, a poet (Anis 1803-1874) who was a “marsiyah-nigaar" par excellence and whom you hold with a great deal of esteem. This usage is continuing to flourish in the “Computer Age” even if its authority is provided by a dictionary compiler hailing from post “Neolithic Age”, Farhang-i-Asifiyyah being from the “Neolithic Age” (1908). (I accept you said this in good humour but alas, Urdu’s history is of somewhat smaller span than that of the Stone Age! (As a side note Platts does not give “dahaa’ii’s origins to be Persian: 

H دهائي दहाई _dahā__ʼ__ī_ [fr. S. दशक+इका], s.f. The figure ten; tenth part; the *tens*, the tens' place (in numeration), the decimal place (of figures), a decimal.)

Of the examples provided for “3asharah” to signify a “decade”, no one can say that they are not sure if “ten days” is meant by this word or a “decade”. I think the argument for keeping its meaning restricted to “ten days” is rather irrelevant. If this meaning is set in stone for some people, then I would suggest that it is time to get out of the “Age of Rigidity” and move into the “Age of Flexibility and Open Mindedness”. It is not always possible to confine meanings of words in neatly labelled compartments. Languages take a natural course in their development and this is happening in the case of Urdu. 3asharah for “decade” is being used not only in journalism but elsewhere in speech and literature. 

Interestingly, Steingass also has “3asharah” for “decade”. (Furthermore, a number of Arabic sources also give “3asharah” as one of the words for “decade”)

_a_ عشره _ʻ__ashara,_ A *decade*, ten days; the first ten days of Muharram.


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