# Romanes (Balkan Gypsy): Ederlezi



## Volcano

*What language is this? Might be Slavic?*


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## Dr. Quizá

Check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ederlezi


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## natasha2000

Volcano said:


> *What language is this? Might be slavic?*



No, it is Gipsy language spoken in Balkans..


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## dudasd

It is not a Gipsy word, but the Arab-originated term for St. Ilias day (_İlyas peygamberin __günü_), the one that is celebrated by Muslims (in May, I think - now I am lazy to check). It comes from Arab "hidr" - saint, and a version of the name Ilias (pronounced like "Elezi" - maybe it's just a distortion, I am not sure if that pronunciation belongs to any particular language - maybe it does, thouh). Compare with _Hızır-İlyas _in Turkish; the very word _hızır _comes from "hidr".


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## natasha2000

It might not have Gypsy ethymology or origin, but it is for sure the gypsy word, just as all the rest in the song with this name...


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## dudasd

It's used by all Muslims (in slightly different versions), so as well by Muslim Gipsies, but not _only_ by them. I've just found it in Turkish version: Hıdırellez - with the same meaning, St. Ilias. Ederlezi is then (probably) just the Balkan pronunciation.


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## natasha2000

So, if it also exists in Turkish, it is a little bit strange that a Turk does not recognize it...


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## dudasd

It's possible that it's archaic, or used by highly religious people only. I wonder how many Serbian children would understand if we said "o Đurđevu dne" instead of "na Đurđevdan".


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## natasha2000

Well, I suppose they would not understand, but they could imagine what is it about... It is not so different, at least I don't see it so different...


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## dudasd

Since Ataturk's reform of Turkish language, many old Ottoman words (mostly of Arabic or Persian origin) are not recognized any more. Many people in Turkey have trouble to read even the writers from first decades of 20th century. (I'm learning Turkish, so I had some funny situations, when I understood certain Ottoman words - because they are still in use in Serbia and Bosnia  - and my Turkish friends didn't, so I proudly "translated" those words for them.)


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## musicalchef

I don't think there's any way a Turk would recognize it in this context.  "Ederlezi" doesn't really sound too much like "Hıdrellez."  Especially since the rest of the text is in a different language, he or she would not be expecting the title word to be from Turkish.  I'm not sure the holiday is widely celebrated in Turkey anymore - I can ask some people if you are interested.

Btw, Hidr is the name of a specific saint, not "saint" in general.  I wasn't sure which one you meant, Dudasd.


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## natasha2000

I think she meant St. Ilias... She says so.


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## dudasd

musicalchef said:


> Btw, Hidr is the name of a specific saint, not "saint" in general. I wasn't sure which one you meant, Dudasd.


 
Several dictionaries give the Arabic root "hidr" in the meaning of "estimated" or "saint", as a common noun. That's all I know, because I don't speak Arabic.


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## Volcano

natasha2000 said:


> So, if it also exists in Turkish, it is a little bit strange that a Turk does not recognize it...



*It doesn't exist in Turkish.We have the word Hıdırellez and I don't know what ederlezi is.Not strange...*


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## natasha2000

Volcano said:


> *It doesn't exist in Turkish.We have the word Hıdırellez and I don't know what ederlezi is.Not strange...*



Why do you write with these letters? It looks as if you were shouting or you were angry...


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## Volcano

musicalchef said:


> I don't think there's any way a Turk would recognize it in this context.  "Ederlezi" doesn't really sound too much like "Hıdrellez."  Especially since the rest of the text is in a different language, he or she would not be expecting the title word to be from Turkish.  I'm not sure the holiday is widely celebrated in Turkey anymore - I can ask some people if you are interested.
> 
> Btw, Hidr is the name of a specific saint, not "saint" in general.  I wasn't sure which one you meant, Dudasd.



*Yes, it is widely celebrated here, like past 6 May.I, just a week ago, opened a topic about this on the greek forum, I wonder whether it is in other countries, esp Greece.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1387553&highlight=*


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## sokol

I didn't know that "Ederlezi" also is used in BCS*) - (it is rather Bosnian then, right? ); anyway it seems then that the Gypsy term was loaned from BCS - thus we could classify this as a Bosnian word (even though the etymology is not Slavic of course ).

*) I knew that Gypsy song from Kusturica's "Time of the Gypsies".


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## natasha2000

sokol said:


> I didn't know that "Ederlezi" also is used in BCS*) - (it is rather Bosnian then, right? ); anyway it seems then that the Gypsy term was loaned from BCS - thus we could classify this as a Bosnian word (even though the etymology is not Slavic of course ).
> 
> *) I knew that Gypsy song from Kusturica's "Time of the Gypsies".


No, Sokol, it is NOT BCS word. It is a word that is used in Gipsy language spoken on The Balkans. No BCS speaker can understand that language, not even imagine what is said. The language you heard in Time of the Gypsies has nothing to do with BCS. We, too had translation to BCS when that movie appeared in cinemas for the first time...


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## sokol

natasha2000 said:


> No, Sokol, it is NOT BCS word. It is a word that is used in Gipsy language spoken on The Balkans. No BCS speaker can understand that language, not even imagine what is said. The language you heard in Time of the Gypsies has nothing to do with BCS. We, too had translation to BCS when that movie appeared in cinemas for the first time...


Yes, I know that the song "Ederlezi" is in Romanes only.

But from dudasd's answer:


dudasd said:


> It's used by all Muslims (in slightly different versions), so as well by Muslim Gipsies, but not _only_ by them. I've just found it in Turkish version: Hıdırellez - with the same meaning, St. Ilias. Ederlezi is then (probably) just the Balkan pronunciation.


I thought it was used by Muslims on the Balkans - Slavic Muslims (that is, Bosnians) too, that is, "Ederlezi" in the meaning of "Đurđevdan".

I wouldn't know either way, so could you please clarify?
There's no doubt about the Gypsy song, what is the point here is wether Bosnian BCS speakers also use "Ederlezi".


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## natasha2000

The point is.. (uf, I am not sure I will be able to explain it, but I see clearly why you are bringing these wrong conclusions ), I don't think that Duda meant Bosnian Muslims when she said that, since Bosnian Muslims speak Slavic language, which does not have anytihing to do with languages used by the rest of Islamic nations...

Sorry, I just don't know how to explain, but I am sure that this word is as much unknown to Bosnian Muslims as to any Serbian or Croat. Because Bosnian Muslims or now called Bosniaks, speak the same language as Serbs and Croats.


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## sokol

I see - so she meant Balkanic Turks (and/or) probably Albanians, right?

In that case the thread's misplaced here. Thanks.


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## natasha2000

I wouldn't say Albanians, because they do not speak language that has anything to do with Arabic and Turkish languages... I think she meant that.

BTW, what do you mean by Balkanic Turks?


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## sokol

natasha2000 said:


> BTW, what do you mean by Balkanic Turks?


Turks speaking Turkish and living on the Balkans; there are not many left, but some still are (or should be) there. (I am not talking about Pomaks, or Bosnians, or whatever. )

Anyway, so we're basically talking about Romanes.


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## natasha2000

Ah, ok. We understood each other (at last )...

Yes, we are do speak here only about Romanes....

Speaking of which, I am not sure I know anything about their language... It seems that it takes a lot of influence depending on where they live, but not enogh to become understandable by people of the country in which they live... In Spain, there is also Gipsy language that is not understandable by Spanish people, it's called calo, and it awfully reminds of Gypsy language I heard in Serbia...


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## musicalchef

dudasd said:


> Several dictionaries give the Arabic root "hidr" in the meaning of "estimated" or "saint", as a common noun. That's all I know, because I don't speak Arabic.



Right, there is a word "hadrat" which means that!  That would make sense too.

I was going by the article posted by Dr. Quiza, which said the word is "Hizr," which is the name of a saint, and it says the festival celebrates both the saint Hizr and the prophet Ilyas (known as Elijah in the Bible I believe), because neither of them experienced death.


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## dudasd

After consulting some more dictionaries (in different languages, including Turkish), it seems I can add some more information:

While some of them derive "hidr" in "Hıdrellez" (and the distorted form "Ederlezi") from the Arabic root meaning just "saint", some other give a different explanations; I'll translate this one, from Abdullah Škaljić's Dictionary of Turkish words in Serbo-Croat: 

"hazreti Hidr (also hazreti Hrzul and hazreti H'zur) - cognomen of Ilyas Peygamber (the prophet Elias), for whom it's believed that God turned him into a melek (=angel), and that he is still alive in that form. The folklore belief says that he's appearing as "The Good", disguised as a beggar or different, but in green clothes" - and he connects it with the Arabic name Hidr or Hidir, which means "The Green (one)". 

Whatever of the two explanations be true, in both cases the expression means the same personality - hazreti Ilyas.

Some more on the topic, to make the thing clearer: the expression Ederlezi is ONLY a distorted form of Turkish "Hıdrellez", which, again, comes from Arabic language (so I don't think if would fit the Arabic language forum better). It's what we could call a "shared word", used in different countries and by different nations, in Gipsy (or if you prefer Romana) language it's *just a loanword of Arabic origin*. Similar form was, for example, recorded amongst Bosniaks (Muslims in Bosnia and Sandžak in Serbia) by Abdullah Škaljić; I also heard it personally from Serbian Turks (as Sokol said, Turks living in Serbia or Kosovo - like my own relatives living in Niš, who are pure Turks, for example). 

An interesting information about this holy day (though it fits more to "Cultural discussions" section) - ethnologists suppose that it's a substitution for some older Gipsy festival which probably had been celebrated in May, for while Muslim Gipsies celebrate "Ederlezi" as the biggest festival during the year, Christian Gipsies consider St. George (which is on 6th of May (in Orthodox Church) as well) to be their most important holy day. So those celebrations are often a mix of Muslim and Christian traditions.

I hope now we solved the secret of Ederlezi.


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## BP.

Went to the wiki link somebody posted. Its pretty funny seeing familiar-ish words like khelen and bakren being said by people living thousands of miles away! Thanks for the experience.


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## nishabda

to add to the pot, I think Ederlyi is a Hungarian word, also to do with religion... go figure!


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## ancalimon

Found this topic while browsing the forum. I have to reply to make things clear.

In Turkish we call this celebration "Hıdırellez".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr

Hıdır is Hızır (Khidr) He is a very revered figure among Turkic people. I have no idea why he is so much revered by the Turks. He is accepted as the teacher of prophets but Prophet Muhammed was an exception because he was the teacher of Khidr. It seems like he is a time traveler. He also is a Deus Ex Machina. He is there when someone is in great need. (Actually on our ambulances Hızır is written  ) It is believed that he is seen as an old man or a very handsome young man to every person twice in their life. He also exists in Turkic mythology (how he exists in Turkic mythology before Islam, I have no idea. Probably because he is a time traveler  )

There are many different pronunciations of the name Khidr among different Turkic population. (Hızır, Keder, Eder, Keser, Gezer, Ghezer,...)


Turks in Central Asia have this celebration as "the day Turks came out of the iron mountain by melting it. They jump over fires and melt iron on anvils hitting them with hammers. The Turkish, Syrian, Kurdish version is probably an Islamised version of this celebration of Central Asian and Far Northern Turks. It is not a gypsy celebration. It was probably celebrated by the people who were labeled as pagans in the Dark Century.

Ellez is İlyas (St. Ilias).  According to some, he is the same person as Khidr.


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