# Chatelaine as a name...



## LadeeEsquire

Hello! I am new here and really only a have one question at this point in time. I am hoping that as many of you as possible could take the time to give me your thoughts. 

I am considering naming my daughter Chatelaine. I've looked it up and it seems to mean "lady of the house" or "mistress of the castle." The meaning that I more closely associated with the word was from needlework, a "chatelaine" which is/was a victorian piece of jewelry which held keys and later needleworking tools. 

I was told by someone that the word chatelaine would be most inappropriate for a name because in french the word "chat" or maybe "chatte" was a sexual slang word and not at all polite. 

Could any of you give me your thoughts on this?


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## Berlingot

Chatelaine as a first name seems odd in French. I do not know how it sounds in English. The meaning is lady of the house or mistress of the castle as you quite rightly said.  However, the connection with chat or chatte is far-fetched...
I know that in the USA you can call your children any name you like but they then have to live all their lives with the names their parents gave them...


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## elroy

Berlingot said:
			
		

> I know that in the USA you can call your children any name you like


 
Isn't it the same in France??...


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## brendan

elroy said:
			
		

> Isn't it the same in France??...



non - 
"si l'officier de l'état civil estime au moment de la déclaration de naissance que le prénom choisi est susceptible de porter préjudice à l'enfant, il peut en informer le Procureur de la République. Ensuite, le juge aux affaires familiales est saisi et peut ordonner le changement de prénom ou le changer lui-même si les parents n'en démordent pas..."

if the Registrar of births considers at the time of registration of the brith that chosen forename could prejudice the child, he can inform the Public Prosecuter. Then, the family court judge can order the forename to be changed or change it himself if the the parents refuse...


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## Brioche

elroy said:
			
		

> Isn't it the same in France??...



Under the Law of 11 Germinal Year XI  (1 April 1803), which was in force until January 1993,
only names from recognised calendars, and names from classical antiquity could be used in official birth registers.

*L'article                 1er de la loi du 11 germinal an XI 
*​ "...                   les noms en usage dans les différents calendriers, et ceux                   des personnages connus dans l'histoire ancienne pourront seuls                   être reçus, comme prénoms, sur les registres                   destinés à constater la naissance des enfants ;                   et il est interdit aux officiers publics d'en admettre aucun autre                   dans leurs actes".


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## xav

... but it has changed now, because there are so many foreigners living in France. Cet article de 1803 a été abrogé en 1993, et il ne reste que le contrôle du risque de préjudice mentionné en #4.



I suppose "Chatelaine" would be admitted in France, but it sounds effectively strange, since it means a woman who owns a château, with money and a certain local power. Old ladies, more than babies or girls. And as a name, it sounds very materialist.
Nothing to do with the sexual meaning of "chatte". I suppose that people who said that didn't like the noun for the reasons above, but found them too weak and searched a stronger one !
For me, definetely, Chatelaine is possible in the States, and will sound strange to -but be admitted by- her eventual french friends ; they will say "Another strange american idea !". The important point is what her american friends will think of that noun. It depends wether they'll speak french, or not...


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## EmmaPeel

hi,

Xav is right, the meaning of Châtelaine is:
the master of the castle's wife = the lady of the castle
= the woman who lives in a castle, basically

It's not a name in France, but I admit it sounds nice, so if you like it for your daughter, go for it!


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## Kelly B

For what it's worth, I knew a girl named Gentille who was not French. It sounds very beautiful in English, but she didn't like it anyway because she knew it sounded odd or out of place in French.


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## xav

Kelly B said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I knew a girl named Gentille who was not French. It sounds very beautiful in English, but she didn't like it anyway because she knew it sounded odd or out of place in French.


 
What, what, what ? Not at all ! You can tell her it's beautiful in French too !!
I suggest it to LadeeEsquire ! 
 

- my only question would be : how is it pronounced in English ???


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## Kelly B

This was years ago.... she pronounced it as the French would, more or less (zhon ti) It's interesting that your reaction is so much more positive than her own -- she thought it was odd to be named with an adjective.


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## Noursette

Gentille - it sounds a little stupid. Gentille may mean "un peu bébête".
But I like Chatelaine.


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## OlivierG

I'd say, in France, "Chatelaine" as a first name could be considered as aristocratic and a bit posh. 
But why not? It is nicer than "Lourdes" (in French , "heavy") , the name of the Madonna's daughter.


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## xav

Noursette said:
			
		

> Gentille - it sounds a little stupid. Gentille may mean "un peu bébête".


pas d'accord pour ma part !  
Nous avons une fâcheuse tendance en France à dénaturer tous les adjectifs positifs - voir par exemple ce qu'est devenu récemment l'adjectif "bonne" : comment peut-on dire désormais en un mot qu'une personne du sexe féminin est pleine de bonté ?
Voir aussi ce qu'est devenu le "bon homme" d'il y a bien longtemps...


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## xav

Kelly B said:
			
		

> This was years ago.... she pronounced it as the French would, more or less (zhon ti) It's interesting that your reaction is so much more positive than her own -- she thought it was odd to be named with an adjective.


 
We have a lot in French - maybe not the most usual... : Aimé, Amédée, Christian and its old version Chrétien, Christine of course, Claire, Clément, Constant, Désiré... Félix, Fidèle, François(e), Juste, Modeste, Monique (= unique)... Parfait (sic), Pascal, René, Romain, Sabine, Sylvain, Urbain... and I forget some !

I must add I find Gentille is a very beautiful name for an american girl, but I wouldn't propose it for a french one : very nice, but too strange.

Perhaps the difficult pronounciation has played a role too...
When you have repeated one thousand times your name because people do neither hear it well nor understand... And when you have spelled it another thousand times (yes, two times "l")...


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## Mycall

I couldn't agree more with Noursette. I wouldn't name any of my daughters "Gentille" for the world! Why? Simply because it entails that silly connotation of "being a backward sort of person" (what we would call "nunuche").

   As for Châtelaine, though it isn't immediately striking, the slang expression has to be reckoned with. Mind you, that wouldn't have been the case twenty years back as those "naughty words" were not so widely used as they would be today(mostly owing to the media who do not miss an opportunity to echo them).
   Personally when I read that name, daft as it may sound I instantly thought of Stephen King's novel called "Misery Chastain". I don't think this is much of an incentive either...

    "The Bou-quet résidence! The lady of the house speaking!"


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## Gil

"Châtelaine" is also the name of a popular magazine in Québec.  You can easily find it with Google.


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## elroy

Well I'll be!

I guess I took it for granted that parents had complete liberty in choosing a name for the child!

But on what basis does "l'officier de l'état civil estime au moment de la déclaration de naissance que le prénom choisi est susceptible de porter préjudice à l'enfant"?

Isn't that entirely subjective?!


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## river

Is this law ever enforced? And how often?


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## Amityville

Elroy -
There are many apocryphal stories about the Renaults who weren't allowed to call their daughter Megane, and similar. Whether it is subjective or not is also subjective. In the UK it would be an infringement of personal choice. In France, where there is more community responsiblity for the offspring and imo more common sense I think it is acceptable and changing with the times and constitution of the population without acrimony. Attendance at ante-natal appointments is *obligatory* in France, which also, on the face of it, appears to be an infringement of personal liberty (it's your own business) but this is because of the many financial and other help available for prospective parents and parents and a sense of communal responsibility. That's how I see it.


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## E-J

It may seem outrageous to tell people what they can and can't name their child, but I do recall a famous case in the UK in the 90s where a father named his son after ALL the members of his favourite football team  

However ...



			
				brendan said:
			
		

> "le juge aux affaires familiales est saisi et peut ordonner le changement de prénom ou le changer lui-même si les parents n'en démordent pas..."


 
"... _le changer lui-même"_?? Does this mean the judge is entitled to choose a name ??


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## Agnès E.

You will get further info here. This is an extreme case, when parents refuse to obey the judgement and change their child's name.


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## Gil

Ce qui est prévu au Code civil du Québec:



> 54. Where the name chosen by the father and mother contains an odd compound surname or odd given names which clearly invite ridicule or may discredit the child, the registrar of civil status may suggest to the parents that they change the child's name.
> 
> If they refuse to do so, the registrar nevertheless draws up the act of birth and notifies the Attorney General of Québec. The Attorney General may bring the matter before the court within 90 days of the registration of the act to request that the surname of one of the parents be substituted for the surname chosen by the parents or that two given names in common use be substituted for the given names chosen by the parents.


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## E-J

Agnès E. said:
			
		

> You will get further info here. This is an extreme case, when parents refuse to obey the judgement and change their child's name.


 
"Enfin, si le juge estime que le prénom n'est pas conforme à l'intérêt de l'enfant, il en ordonne la suppression sur les registres de l'Etat civil et attribue à l'enfant un autre prénom qu'il détermine lui-même si les parents ne le font pas."

Incroyable.


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## river

I could understand the problem if you were naming your children after the Seven Dwarfs (Dopey,Sleepy, Sneezy, Grumpy, Bashful, Happy and Doc), but a football team?


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## E-J

I believe it was their surnames ... and when you're filling in a form, that's a LOT of names!!


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## river

Chatelaine is being proposed as a surname.


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## E-J

river said:
			
		

> Chatelaine is being proposed as a surname.


 I'm sorry - I don't understand


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## Kelly B

I don't think Chatelaine is being proposed as a surname (last name) but rather as a given name (prénom).

I'm guessing, here, that the surname part of the Canadian law would apply if Ms. Pick and Mr. Pocket decide to name their offspring "Junior Pick-Pocket." The judge would be legally able to name the child "Junior Pocket" instead.


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## LadeeEsquire

I thank you all so much for your comments and thoughts. Yes, the name is being proposed as a given name. I thought it was a very pretty word/name and, as I said in my original post, had really thought of the victorian needleworking tool at the time. I was only led to the other meaning of chateau owner and magazine name after a google search. There is also a KD Lang song called Miss Chatelaine. 

I guess naming a person a noun may be considered unusual but really most names have meanings that are a noun in some other language I believe. My own name Susan --which is incredibly common-- means "a lily" 

I just wanted to make sure that if we do decide to use it as a name it would not be a source of embarrassment for her. By the way, I thank you for the info regarding french naming policies, it was very interesting. ~Susan


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## xav

E-J said:
			
		

> "... _le changer lui-même"_?? Does this mean the judge is entitled to choose a name ??


Yes, it does, if the parents don't accept they can't call their daughter "Poubelle" (= trash can ; that was the name of the préfet who made the trash can obligatory in Paris) or their boy "Stupide". Foreign parents may have the intend of giving a name which, in French, sounds like that.  
The interpretation is not very strict, since "Sue Ellen" was admitted  , even if it means in French "Sweat, Hélène !". Poor girls.
The law of 1803 had the same origin : people were naming their children, after the Republican calendar, "Carotte", "Navet" or worse...


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## Aupick

Another implication of using calendars pops up in orphanages (at least in certain novels and films I've seen - don't know if it happened in real life): when abandoned babies were brought to an orphanage they needed a name, and the tradition was to give them the name associated with that day in the calendar. If you look at a French calendar, though, you'll notice that national holidays don't have a name, they have the name of the holiday instead. Thus someone brought to the orphanage on 14 July would end up being called Fete Nat, for example.   

Again, I don't know if this happened in real life or just in films. An example in film is Bertrand Tavernier's _Coup de torchon_.


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## river

Carotte has a nice ring to it.


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## EmmaPeel

Aupick is right. Orphans were given only one name, sometimes taken from the day the baby was found (in the Calendar).
French people whose family name is a first name, e.g. Bertrand, are desccendants (?) of an orphan.

It is quite new that we replace names by holiday name in calendars.
My name is Emmanuelle and I know that you only see Noel written instead of St Emmanuel on the 25th december. 

Now, to go back to the law on names in France, I reckon it's mostly to protect children from suffering from their name, which may be a real trauma.

Emm.


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## AJ22

Having to spell your name a million times over is a real pain, my first name is Ainslee, but you can run into the same problem (not to the same extent) with familiar names.  I named my daughter Rachel because I never wanted her to have to spell her name for anyone and we have discovered that everyone asks anyway !!!!! They say Rachael or Rachel?  So, you just can't win, odd situations will arise with most names.  I think Chatelaine is very nice and if she grew up not liking it, she could go by Lainey.  I knew a beautiful woman named Elaine who always went by Lainie.  Chatelaine is a far cry from "Apple" (Gweneth Paltrow's daughter) or "Scout".  These names are so masculine and Chatelaine is soooo feminine.  I also had problems with gender identification growing up with the name Ainslee which Chatelaine won't have !!!


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