# Wouldn't be the first time



## Phoebe1200

_NCIS_
While checking further into a suspect, the agents find out that he didn't mention he had been involved in some kind of project that they're investigating the last time they spoke with him.


*Tony: *John Westfal never said he was part of the original group. 
*Mcgee:* Wouldn't be the first time he lied.



What does this phrase mean?     Does it mean that they presume he's lied in the past too?


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## suzi br

Yes, it is saying that he HAS lied in the past which may be something they know or something that they suspect.


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## Phoebe1200

Thank you!

And how about the future? Can it refer to the future, that he'll probably lie in the future too?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> And how about the future? Can it refer to the future, that he'll probably lie in the future too?


Only in a sentence that refers to the future.  ("He may lie tomorrow - it wouldn't be the first time") But not in the OP.


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## Phoebe1200

I have another example. 
_The Thundermans, TV show _
Phoebe and Cherry are best friends. Phoebe has a boyfriend, Link, whose dad owns a matress store. Cherry and Phoebe visit the store and Cherry behaves weirdly. Later when Link calls Phoebe, he says: Cherry's banned from the store. 

Phoebe: Wouldn't be the first time.​
Does it refer to the past or the future here?


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## suzi br

Phoebe1200 said:


> I have another example.
> _The Thundermans, TV show _
> Phoebe and Cherry are best friends. Phoebe has a boyfriend, Link, whose dad owns a matress store. Cherry and Phoebe visit the store and Cherry behaves weirdly. Later when Link calls Phoebe, he says: Cherry's banned from the store.
> 
> Phoebe: Wouldn't be the first time.​
> Does it refer to the past or the future here?



It is all about the past. I don't really know what makes you think there is a future element to it.


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## pob14

I think it's the "wouldn't" that's making Phoebe think of the future.  You might want to think of it as a sort of conditional:, "_If what you say is true,_ it wouldn't be the first time that happened."


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## Englishmypassion

suzi br said:


> It is all about the past. I don't really know what makes you think there is a future element to it.



Actually relating the sentence to a tense is really complex and tricky, and I find it hard to categorize it as the past tense. It seems to refer more to the present, or as a hypothetical situation, as suggested by Pob. So I'd like to consider it timeless/tenseless until somebody gives a better explanation, or you make me see your point.  

Many thanks.


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## suzi br

It IS, factually, about the past because the man has been banned and he has been banned before. All in the past.
We know this from pragmatics rather than grammatical morphology.


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## Phoebe1200

suzi br said:


> It IS, factually, about the past because the man has been banned and he has been banned before. All in the past.


But how do you know that she's been banned from other stores before?


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> But how do you know that she's been banned from other stores before?


No one is talking about other stores.
1. Cherry is banned from the store *now*. 2. This is *not the first time* when she's been banned. Hence, she's been banned *before *(from this particular store). Tells nothing about the future.


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## Phoebe1200

VicNicSor said:


> This is *not the first time* when she's been banned.


But how do you know that this isn't the first time she's been banned?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> But how do you know that this isn't the first time she's been banned?


Because then Phoebe would have said "That would be the first time"  Because she says "It would NOT be the first time" she is saying the first time has already happened.


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## Phoebe1200

So, you mean that in order to use this expression the speaker has to know that the person has been banned/lied before, otherwise, you can't say this phrase?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> So, you mean that in order to use this expression the speaker has to know that the person has been banned/lied before, otherwise, you can't say this phrase?


Of course  The meaning behind the phrase is "I know she has lied before and I am therefore certain the next time wouldn't be the first time"  It's logic, not grammar


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## Phoebe1200

But, for example, in the OP, the agent doesn't know the suspect personally, and he doesn't know if he's lied before in his life, so how can he say that phrase?


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## Barque

He's an agent investigating a suspect. He doesn't have to know the suspect personally to know that the suspect has lied before. He may have got that information from his investigations.


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## Phoebe1200

Barque said:


> He may have got that information from his investigations.


But it's not shown that he did. First, they interviewed him and then later when they checked into him they found out that he didn't mention something during their interview and that's when the agent said that.


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## JulianStuart

So, does the show have to give you everything that McGee knows or has ever learnt in the past (the show would never end) for you to accept that when he says "Wouldn't be the first time" that it means he knows that the person had lied before.  This is logic not grammar   That is how the scriptwriters inform us that McGee knows that.


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## Phoebe1200

OK. I also want to ask if the phrase can be said about someone even if you don't know for a fact if that person has done 'whatever you're referring the phrase to' in the past but only based on your assumption that he's probably done it before because you know the person very well, you know his personality, so you assume that this would not be the first time.


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## Barque

Phoebe1200 said:


> but only based on your assumption that he's probably done it before because you know the person very well, you know his personality, so you assume that this would not be the first time.


Yes, that's possible but such a phrase is far more likely to be used if the speaker knows it for sure.


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> OK. I also want to ask if the phrase can be said about someone even if you don't know for a fact if that person has done 'whatever you're referring the phrase to' in the past but only based on your assumption that he's probably done it before because you know the person very well, you know his personality, so you assume that this would not be the first time.


The "assumption" would probably be reflected in something like "That's probably not the first time ..." or "I doubt if that would be the first time..." etc.  The fact that in the OP there are no "doubt" words is how welearn the speaker knows it for sure.


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## Phoebe1200

JulianStuart said:


> The fact that in the OP there are no "doubt" words is how welearn the speaker knows it for sure.


What words are those?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> What words are those?





JulianStuart said:


> The "assumption" would probably be reflected in something like "That's *probably* not the first time ..." or "I *doubt* if that would be the first time..." etc.  The fact that in the OP there are no "doubt" words is how welearn the speaker knows it for sure.


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## Phoebe1200

pob14 said:


> You might want to think of it as a sort of conditional:, "_If what you say is true,_ it wouldn't be the first time that happened."


I also don't understand this.


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## VicNicSor

Phoebe1200 said:


> But it's not shown that he did. First, they interviewed him and then later when they checked into him they found out that he didn't mention something during their interview and that's when the agent said that.


"Once a liar, always a liar."


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## Phoebe1200

Is this "wouldn't" really a conditional? Is there something implicit in the phrase?


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> Is this "wouldn't" really a conditional? Is there something implicit in the phrase?


See post #7


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## Phoebe1200

pob14 said:


> "_If what you say is true,_ it wouldn't be the first time that happened."


But I can't make sense of the sentence. Should it be ""_If what you say *was* true,...."_


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## JulianStuart

Phoebe1200 said:


> But I can't make sense of the sentence. Should it be ""_If what you say *was* true,...."_


No. Why would it have been true but no longer? (Are you thinking it's a non-real situation???)  "is" is the correct form.   If {statement A} is true, then {statement B} would be the consequence"


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## VicNicSor

"If what you say is true_,_ it wouldn't be the first time that happened."

It's not really a "conditional", but rather an "assumption": "Suppose what you say is true_. _Then it wouldn't be the first time that happened."


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## suzi br

Phoebe1200 said:


> But, for example, in the OP, the agent doesn't know the suspect personally, and he doesn't know if he's lied before in his life, so how can he say that phrase?


The fact that he says it here means he knows this. You may not be shown HOW he knows it,  but he knows it. 
There is no point using the phrase otherwise.


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## Phoebe1200

I have one more question.

How is the phrase different from "*Won't* be the first time"?


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## Barque

I'd expect "won't be the first time" to be used for something that might happen, in the future.

_A: He's going to make a mess of it. 
B: Won't be the first time._


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## suzi br

Phoebe1200 said:


> I have one more question.
> 
> How is the phrase different from "*Won't* be the first time"?



Have you heard anyone say this?

Interestingly, after all the muddle about "is this about the future?" that we had earlier in the thread, I actually think I'd use this in an exchange about the future:

Me: Bill says he is going to stay at home this Christmas.
You: Won't be the first time.

So Bill has not had his Christmas break yet, but you are saying that he has stayed at home over other breaks in the past.


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## suzi br

Barque said:


> I'd expect "won't be the first time" to be used for something that might happen, in the future.
> 
> _A: He's going to make a mess of it.
> B: Won't be the first time._




Great minds think alike, Barque!


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## Phoebe1200

suzi br said:


> Have you heard anyone say this?


I heard it on NCIS show but I can't find the episode now. The context was this: The team was about to go on a black ops mission in some other country and the Operation's manager was advising them to be extra careful and not get caught, otherwise they'll end up in that country's prison. And this is when the agent said: _Won't be the first time.
_
And I understood it to mean that they've already been in that prison before. Is that correct?


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## suzi br

Yes, these phrases always mean something has happened before.


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## Phoebe1200

But then couldn't he have said: _*Wouldn't *be_ _the first time._


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## Barque

Yes, he could have said that too. An example of the many things that can be expressed in more than one way.


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## Phoebe1200

Phoebe1200 said:


> Phoebe and Cherry are best friends. Phoebe has a boyfriend, Link, whose dad owns a matress store. Cherry and Phoebe visit the store and Cherry behaves weirdly. Later when Link calls Phoebe, he says: Cherry's banned from the store.
> 
> Phoebe: Wouldn't be the first time.



Can "*Won't* be the first time" said in this context?


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## Barque

Are you referring to Cherry being banned from other stores?

I think this might be clearer:

_Later when Link calls Phoebe, he says: If Cherry behaves like that again when she comes here, we'll ban her from the store.
Phoebe: Won't be the first time (that a store bans her)._

In your original, it doesn't sound natural because John's referring to something he's already done, and that has definitely happened. He says "Cherry's banned". The natural reply here, to say that it's happened before, is something like "Not the first time she's had that happen."


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## Phoebe1200

Can these be used, for example, about someone?

_*Won't* be the first time he'*ll *lie. 
*Wouldn't *be_ _the first time, he'*ll *lie._


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## Barque

The second, with the comma, sounds odd. 

The first might be used in certain contexts, for example if you're referring to a lie that you know will be told. But usually, if you're saying it in reply to someone who says "he" will lie, you don't need to add those words "he'll lie" at the end. They'll be understood.


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## Phoebe1200

Barque said:


> The second, with the comma, sounds odd.


Sorry, that was just a typo.

Does that mean that _*Wouldn't *be_ _the first time (he'*ll *lie.) _can be used about future too?


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## Barque

Yes. _If he decides to lie, it wouldn't be the first time.
_
See pob14's second sentence in #7.


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## Phoebe1200

A million thanks to each of you!


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