# so-so - do we really use it?



## Kumpel

Does anyone actually use the expression _so-so_?

e.g.
A: _How are you?_
B: _So-so._

If so, who/where?


I only ever encounter this expression when learning other languages.

Lloyd


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## owlman5

Hello, Lloyd.  I certainly use "so-so" from time to time.  I hear others use it too.


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## Rover_KE

So do I, as a change from _not bad, fair to middling, average._

Rover


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## Kumpel

I'll speculate that it's an age thing, though we don't know your age, owlman5.
The translation has just stuck, even when foreign languages are being taught to the younger generation.

Lloyd
http://browse.dict.cc/franzoesisch-deutsch/ça.html


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## Parla

Kumpel said:


> I'll speculate that it's an age thing, though we don't know your age, owlman5.



Undoubtedly you're unlikely to hear it from a teenager. But unless you're going to confine your conversations to people under age 30 or 40, it's helpful to know what it means, eh?


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## Kumpel

Parla said:


> Undoubtedly you're unlikely to hear it from a teenager. But unless you're going to confine your conversations to people under age 30 or 40, it's helpful to know what it means, eh?



Of course, teach it to ESL speakers, that's not what I'm saying.
I only come into contact with this expression when I'm learning foreign languages. The foreign equivalent is translated into English as _so-so_, even though none of the people on the room with me use it.

Lloyd


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## Adge

I'd like to lump myself in with the "never-said-it-in-my-life-except-in-foreign-language-classrooms" group. 

_I had students in China who would say "I'm very so-so"! They knew it was wrong, but it made their classmates laugh._


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## JamesM

Hmmm... I wouldn't find it odd to say in response to a question like "I heard you had the flu. How are you feeling?"

(On a side note, there are things I say now that I would have never said in my teens or twenties. They sounded "old" to me then. Just because you haven't ever said it before age 25, don't count yourself out just yet. More often than not, people's language gets broader and richer as they experience life and the very restrictive rules of what's acceptable and what "fits" you [which seem to be at their narrowest in high school] loosen up quite a bit.)


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## Parla

Adge said:


> I'd like to lump myself in with the "never-said-it-in-my-life-except-in-foreign-language-classrooms" group.
> 
> _I had students in China who would say "I'm very so-so"! They knew it was wrong, but it made their classmates laugh._



It's fairly common in my part of the country. Q: "How was the movie?" A: "So-so."  It's a mild negative.


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## Adge

Parla said:


> It's fairly common in my part of the country. Q: "How was the movie?" A: "So-so."  It's a mild negative.



Really? That's interesting...being one of those people who doesn't use it, I understand it as a neutral- not good or bad. I have always taught it to be a synonym of "average" or "normal" if anything.

What do other users think? Whether you use "so-so" or not, what kind of connotation does it have?


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## JulianStuart

My scale, for better or worse, goes as follows:
good, not bad, so-so, not good, bad. 
So so-so is in the middle and often has the (usually somewhat negative) connotation of "middling".


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## JamesM

That is my understanding as well.  It has that same slightly negative tinge that "OK" has as a response to a lot of things.  "How was the movie?" "OK."  "How are you feeling?"  "Not great, just OK."


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## sdgraham

Adge said:


> What do other users think? Whether you use "so-so" or not, what kind of connotation does it have?



Yes, I use it occupationally to mean mediocre.


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## Kumpel

I find it interesting that words with the meaning average/not good/not bad still connote a negative opinion. It makes me wonder how I can say that something is truly average without using one of the average-but-actually-a-tad-negative words.


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## Einstein

I've always considered "so-so" to be quite American, although most British would understand it. But I see from the thread that it's not so common among Americans either.
Kumpel says that it seems to be a translation from a foreign language; I can say that the Italian expression corresponds exactly. But if it's entered the language as a translation you probably have to thank immigrants and not just language classes.

I've found Italians wanting to translate it as "so-and-so". I have to explain that it means something else!


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## airportzombie

I was watching a Max Raabe DVD last night ("Heute Nacht Oder Nie"—Live in Berlin) and one of the songs tries to explain the meaning:

"_Cosi cosa_, does it mean 'yes'? No.
Does it mean 'no'? Yes ... and no."

There seems to be another expression that I've started to hear instead of "so-so":

"How was the movie?"
"(It was) Meh." (usually accompanied with a slight shrug of the shoulder and turning up of a corner of the mouth)


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## Kumpel

Einstein said:


> Kumpel says that it seems to be a translation from a foreign language.



I don't think it's a translation from a foreign language that's become integrated. What I'm saying is that I only ever come into contact with this expression in the classroom - e.g. in my Polish class the other day, my teacher translated _tak sobie_ as _so-so_, and I pointed out that no one* really says _so-so_. I remember first learning a little French - _so-so_ > _comme ci comme ça_.

Lloyd

*Of course, _no one_ was hyperbole.

PS I know this is the English Only forum, but my foreign bits are necessary for the examples.


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## Loob

Actually, I have the impression that _so-so_ and its French equivalent are just about equally common (uncommon) ....


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## JulianStuart

Kumpel said:


> I find it interesting that words with the meaning average/not good/not bad still connote a negative opinion. It makes me wonder how I can say that something is truly average without using one of the average-but-actually-a-tad-negative words.



I suspect this is more psychology (and perhaps political correctness) than semantics!  Most people like to think they do well (or at least consider themselves _above _average) in many spheres, and that being average is, indeed, "not very good". Calling someone "average" (or any word meaning less than good) would then be taken as a negative. However, someone who used to do _poorly_ at, e.g., physics, and improves to get an "average" score ,will now consider themselves as doing _well _if they are told they got an average score!  An exception here might be weight: one doesn't want to be underweight, or overweight and the middle term is represented as positively wonderful "ideal body weight" 

To the question at hand, though: so-so isn't used a lot but I wouldn't say it's very rare either.

Some of these expressions also have an onomatopoeic quality to them expressing equal parts of good and bad by being repetitive, like so-so.  (Japanese equivalent is ma-ma).


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## miss.meri91

Well, to throw several theories in this thread out the window, I'm 19 and use *so-so* all the time. How was the movie? So-so. How was your meal? So-so.

Maybe we're lagging in South Africa behind popular trends. In reflection, I've only heard the French version (comme-ci comme-ca) in the classroom. In fairness, there are few French people that I chat to outside the classroom. 

I disagree with airportzombie regarding 'meh' - I think it's more negative than so-so, and also not used in the same context. I would use *meh* as a sort of sigh to express exasperation. Eg: *Meh, I'm so over this game/show. *I wouldn't (and don't) use it as a reply to a question about how something was.

But, I suppose it all comes down to location, location, location. The English language is clearly evolving along different paths in all the countries that claim it as a mother tongue - so perhaps you would just have to learn which countries you can use *so-so* in, outside of the classroom context.


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## Kumpel

miss.meri91 said:


> Well, to throw several theories in this thread out the window, I'm 19 and use *so-so* all the time. How was the movie? So-so. How was your meal? So-so.



Forget theories and windows - you're just answering my original question, so thanks.


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## mummy1

Hi All,
One of my Italian students insists on using the expression "so-so" when asked the question "How are you?". I told him that we tend to use alternative expressions such as "not so good/not so bad" or others and that perhaps "so-so" is a little archaic. Today he said that he asked an American teacher and he confirmed that indeed he can use it. Is it just me, maybe in Ireland we didn't use this expression??? Can anyone shed some light on the *modern usage* - I know it exists, I'm just not sure that it's such a common option.

Thanks for any input!

<< This thread has been merged with an earlier discussion. Please read from the top to see the variety of opinions. >>


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## Chasint

I'm pretty sure that I have never used "so-so" in my entire life. In fact I have a sneaking feeling that the first time I ever encountered it as a child was when I read one of Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot stories. I think I assumed it was the sort of thing that a French detective would say whilst twirling his moustache.


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## mummy1

Ha! Exactly Biffo, that's just the image it conjures up! It's in all the dictionaries I know, but who uses it??? I wonder if our American colleagues have anything to add...
As an English teacher I would prefer that my students had a more updated vocabulary. I'm all for beautiful words and keeping a language pure but I just have the vague idea that it could be an infiltration from wartime and franco-italo influences? Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. I can't seem to find the etymology of the expression anywhere.
Night!


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## PaulQ

I use it - 
"How was your day?"
"Uh.. so-so."

"What was he like when you spoke with him?"
“So-so – didn’t really seem interested.”

"How's your tooth?"
"So-so - I can still feel it."

Google N-gram shows a constant use from 1830 - 1990 and then a bit of a tail off, but still in use.


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## Chasint

PaulQ said:


> I use it -
> "How was your day?"
> "Uh.. so-so."
> 
> "What was he like when you spoke with him?"
> “So-so – didn’t really seem interested.”
> 
> "How's your tooth?"
> "So-so - I can still feel it."
> 
> Google N-gram shows a constant use from 1830 - 1990 and then a bit of a tail off, but still in use.


Wow! I would have used "Not bad" or "Okay" in those circumstances.

May I ask approximately where you're from PaulQ?


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## PaulQ

Originally, the East Midlands, then Hull from age 21, and then from 40, Hertfordshire. I did check to see if I really did say it; my wife agrees that I do - frequently... but then, at my stage of life, most things are so-so.


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## Chasint

PaulQ said:


> Originally, the East Midlands, then Hull from age 21, and then from 40, Hertfordshire. I did check to see if I really did say it; my wife agrees that I do - frequently... but then, at my stage of life, most things are so-so.


Have you read a lot of Agatha Christie?


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## mummy1

Imagine that! I would have gone with Biffo on the above answers.
But Paul, if someone asked you "How are you?", would you actually answer "so-so"???


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## PaulQ

mummy1 said:


> Imagine that! I would have gone with Biffo on the above answers.
> But Paul, if someone asked you "How are you?", would you actually answer "so-so"???


Absolutely! 

I'm now anxious for others to say, "Oh yes, I use it all the time."


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## Loob

Just butting in ...

I'd be _fairly_ unlikely to use "so-so" as an answer to "How are you?" because there are so many other options.

But it doesn't sound "old-fashioned" to me: I might well use it in other contexts.


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## JustKate

Somebody said "so-so" to me just a few days/couple of weeks ago. I can't remember exactly who, but it sure the heck wasn't Agatha Christie. Or Paul.  And I'm pretty sure I use it from time to time as well. In fact, I know I do. Why not?

I really don't think it's that outdated. In fact, I don't think it's outdated at all and I'm surprised that anybody does. Here are a few examples I found on Google News (which, if you remember, doesn't keep links active for very long - all of these are from the past few months):
Headline from the Cherry Hill (New Jersey) _Courier-Post_: "TALK BACK: Clinton only so-so as chief diplomat"
From _The Guardian_ (London): "The truth is that for every _Love Letters Straight from the Heart_ or _Jerusalem_ or _The Passion_ there are dozens of plays and productions that are merely so-so, neither fantastically good nor particularly bad."
From FOXSports.com: "Ferentz optimistic about Iowa's recruiting class despite so-so rankings"

Where do you get this "outdated" thing? I don't understand. "Not bad" and "OK" are fine, too, but if there are other options, why not use them if you happen to feel like it? It took me about a minute to locate these, so clearly "so-so" can't be that obscure, and it's definitely not outdated.


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## e2efour

_So-so_ is a useful expression to use if you get tired of replying to _How are you_ with the "meaningless" _I'm fine_. I sometimes use it, although it might sound a little dated to young people.
As regards its origin, I would think it is very difficult to come to a decision about this, since it is used in several European languages (not the sound!), including Greek and Russian (where it appears as snosno). In English we even use the French version -- comme ci, comme ça.
I notice that Trip Advisor has used it in reviews of hotels and restaurants, so the expression is still alive and kicking.
To me, it immediately suggests _tolerable_ or _fair to middling_.


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## vivace160

I use it and have certainly heard/seen it used by others more than enough to say that I agree with JustKate that _so-so_ isn't at all obscure or outdated. It gives a feeling of indifference that you don't quite get with phrases such as "Not bad", "Okay", etc.


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## Chasint

Loob said:


> Adding a PS: there are quite a few other threads on _so-so_.  I haven't checked whether any of them suggest that it's out-dated, but you might like to look, mummy1....


I didn't think it was outdated so much as non-English. I can't remember anyone ever saying it in my presence. Of course I have read the phrase more than once. Very odd!


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## JustKate

I agree, Vivace. I think it's actually more vivid than either "not bad" or "OK." It seems like a useful alternative to me.


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## Loob

Biffo said:


> I didn't think it was outdated so much as non-English.


Intriguing, Biffo!  I think Kate's examples show that it's definitely not "non-English"....


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## Kumpel

Rereading this thread after months (maybe even years) of absence from these fora, I discover Google Ngram.

Checking the latest stats for so so, it's at an all-time (since 1800) low. It think the general trend is a decrease in usage (if you consider Ngram a reliably representative source).

It's interesting to see how this is turning out after two and a half years.


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## entangledbank

Unfortunately the Ngram Viewer can't handle hyphens, so it's only showing graphs and books results for the spaced combinations. If you click into the date ranges in the Google Books search, you'll find they're mostly garbage of some kind, and not telling you about the expression 'so-so'.


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## Kumpel

entangledbank said:


> they're mostly garbage of some kind



Solid State Physics, Page 32: "SO ^ so *O _so SO so SO so so SO so so SO so SO so so so so SO so so so so_"

You know, I see your point.


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## JustKate

More recent uses from Google News:
"50 Creative Ways to Take Your Wedding From So-So to Spectacular" - _Glamour_ magazine blog dated March 6, 2013
"An off season emphasis: Fix so-so special teams" - March 21, 2013, _San Francisco Chronicle_
"Even if they report a so-so quarter ... if they provide robust guidance for the current quarter, that could really light a fire under the stock" - a quote from Eric Jackson, the founder and managing partner of Ironfire Capital LLC, found in a Reuters story posted on FOX Business.
"Blue Jays' Ricky Romero has so-so outing versus Pirates" - CBC Sports (Canada) dated March 26, 2013.


Ngram tracks usage in books, right? So it may be reliable from that standpoint, but what is used in books isn't necessarily what's used in conversation (and what is used in either isn't necessarily what's used in newspapers - particularly headlines, which commonly use all sorts of words that aren't used much by the rest of the world - e.g., the verb "to slate").

I have no idea, of course, if it's at an "all-time low" in conversation. If the Google News results that I got are anything to go by, it's still quite common in articles on sports and finance. But I can say that it is so far not even slightly obscure. It took me about 5 minutes to find these, and the only reason it took that long is that I had to weed out a whole *bunch* of references from a blog called So So Gay.


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## ewie

I can't believe some of the stuff I read in this forum: people have never heard _so-so_ in use? it's outdated? it's foreign-sounding?

I couldn't get through a day without _so-so_ ~ there's just so much in my life which is


JustKate said:


> neither fantastically good nor particularly bad.


(Excellent definition)


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## RM1(SS)

I use so-so, but for me (as for someone else upthread) it has slightly negative connotations.  If I were giving events/things letter grades, like in school, "middlin'" would be a _C_, and "so-so" would be a _C-_.


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## JustKate

It's like "OK" in that the context in which it's used plus (in speech, of course) tone of voice can make a big difference. 

So for example, if someone said about a party "It was so-so," that's probably not very good. But if that same person said about his root canal, "It was so-so," that might be pretty good.


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## yads

Non-natives such as yours truly abuse this expression so much that I've developed a strange aversion to it.
I hear fellow non-native speakers use it all the time when they can't follow it up with a meaningful conversation.
It gets especially awkward when all parties engaging in the same conversation use the same thing to express their opinions.

I am, however, curious as to whether native speakers use it in other situations?
For instance, does it make sense if I say--when asked whether I am a fan of Elon Musk--"*Well, just so-so*"?


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## velisarius

yads said:


> For instance, does it make sense if I say--when asked whether I am a fan of Elon Musk--"*Well, just so-so*"?


Well, I'd understand what you meant but I don't find it at all idiomatic.


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## natkretep

But this is generally true of language learners - they generally have more limited options, and those items taught to them are over-used. That example is not idiomatic, as veli said. I might just say, 'I'm mildly interested' or 'I'm not especially keen' or 'I find him a bit of a yawn' and so on.


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## yads

Thank you so much, Velisarius and Natkretep. I think I'm going to actively avoid this expression from now on.


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## ewie

yads said:


> when asked whether I am a fan of Elon Musk--


_Not particularly/especially. _

P.S. I still can't get through a day without using _so-so_.


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## Thomas Tompion

I find _so-so _quite usual as a description of a state, but not of my feelings for someone.

I'd be unlikely to answer questions about my health, other than from my doctor, with anything other than the usual euphemisms, like _fine,_ or_ appalling, thank you,_, etc.


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## ewie




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## entangledbank

It doesn't strike me as unusual or dated at all. It's not something I commonly say, but nor are lots of other things. However, I searched through my fiction and found that none of my characters ever say it either, so apparently it's not something I ever really think of.


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## kentix

There's nothing weird about it. When it works it works.

A: I hear you've been sick for a week. How are you feeling today?
B: So-so. A bit better than yesterday, I guess.


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