# Forming singulars/Common Neuter?



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Personnen - en = Per-son (it is short)
Kaarsen - en = Kaars (it is short)
Gerechten - en = Gerecht (it is short)

Are these common or neuter nouns?

Thanks.


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## Frank06

Hi,


bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Personnen - en = Per-son (it is short)
> Kaarsen - en = Kaars (it is short)
> Gerechten - en = Gerecht (it is short)


 
I might be wrong, but I have the impression that you mix up short (vowels) with closed (syllables) here. At least, that is how I interpret the comments you added to the example kaars.

Pers*oo*n - pers*o*nen: both with long o. In the word per-so-nen you have a closed, open and closed syllable respectively.

Kaars, kaarsen: both (obviously) with long a, but *kaars* and *kaar*-sen (or *kaars*-en, if you want) are closed syllables.



> Are these common or neuter nouns?


What do you mean by 'common nouns'? Nouns which take 'de', as opposed to neuter nouns which have 'het'? If so, what's uncommon about those so-called 'het-words'? 
I am very much interested in the terminology used in Dutch Second Language courses, but I cannot say that I ever came across the distinction 'comon versus neuter'. Where did you find this one?

Anyway, I am not sure if I understood well, but:
de persoon (masc.)
de kaars (fem)
het gerecht (n)

There is no relation whatsoever between the formation of the plural, the grammatical gender of the noun and orthography (since the z*oo*n / z*o*nen, wring one or two o's in this particular case, is merely an orthographical issue, not a grammatical one).

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Joannes

Frank06 said:


> What do you mean by 'common nouns'? Nouns which take 'de', as opposed to neuter nouns which have 'het'? If so, what's uncommon about those so-called 'het-words'?
> I am very much interested in the terminology used in Dutch Second Language courses, but I cannot say that I ever came across the distinction 'comon versus neuter'. Where did you find this one?


It's used for the description of noun declension in Nordic languages for example. And I suppose it's applicable to Dutch as well (until you come to Belgium ).


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## Frank06

Hoi,


Joannes said:


> It's used for the description of noun declension in Nordic languages for example. And I suppose it's applicable to Dutch as well (until you come to Belgium ).


Rare jongens, die Belgen... 

Thanks for showing me the right direction. I had to look it up, and if you guys mean 'common *gender*', then I think can (start to) follow.

But, frankly, 'common gender' ... who invents those things? 
Anyway, this is not the place for a rant on novelty grammatical terminology, and I suppose Dutch Dutch is starting to need one term that covers both the traditionally feminine and masculine 'de-words'. But we already have a few threads about that...

My problem with 'common *nouns*' was that it has a well established, but completely different meaning (see for example here), which has nothing to do with grammatical gender (at least not in Dutch nor in Swedish).

Nevertheless, I don't see a relation between any kind of gender, the formation of plurals and singulars, and the orthographic rules.

Groetjes,

Frank

PS: 
I checked out a Swedish grammar (in English) here, and they use 'neuter' and 'non-neuter'. My Swedish grammar book(let) (in Dutch) even uses 'neuter' and 'uter'. I (luckily) never saw either 'non-neuter' or 'uter' in connection with Dutch (SL) sources, though.


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## Joannes

Frank06 said:


> But, frankly, 'common gender' ... who invents those things?


Geen idee. Misschien de Scandinaven zelf. Ik heb eigenlijk geen enkel idee hoe ze het daar zelf noemen. Toch wel nieuwsgierig nu.  Ik denk dat ik het even ga vragen...


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## HKK

De Zweedse Wikipedia vertelt ons in zeer begrijpelijk Zweeds:



> I modern svenska och danska, däremot, har maskulinum och femininum sammanflutit till ett *gemensamt genus*


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## Joannes

Blijkbaar wordt voor het Zweeds ook de term *utrum* gebruikt die van het Latijn komt (*utrum... an* 'ofwel... of'). Naar analogie daarmee zou je *de*-woorden in het Nederlands dus _hetzijdige_ woorden kunnen noemen, nl. _hetzij_ mannelijk _hetzij_ vrouwelijk.  Al zou ook gewoon _zijdig_ kunnen volstaan, tegenover het 'negatio tanta' _onzijdig_. 

(Een onderscheid _geslachtelijk_ vs. _ongeslachtelijk_ vind ik slecht, want *het*-woorden hebben even veel (grammaticaal) en meestal even weinig (semantisch) geslacht als *de*-woorden. )


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## Suehil

For the record, English textbooks (or at least the ones I have read) use the terms 'common' and 'neuter' ('de' and 'het') when referring to the gender of words in Dutch.  They don't always use the complete form, 'common gender'.


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## CapnPrep

Suehil said:


> For the record, English textbooks (or at least the ones I have read) use the terms 'common' and 'neuter' ('de' and 'het') when referring to the gender of words in Dutch.


This is also my experience, and I don't find the terminology objectionable. It never crossed my mind to conclude that _het_-words were therefore "uncommon". Then again, they are in fact _less _common, accounting for only one in four Dutch nouns.


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## George French

'De of het' woorden is voldoende. Ik geloof dat dit de 'waarheid' is voor de wat jongere Nederlandse kinderen op school. Als je Nederlands als taal bestudiert is het wat anders, toch.


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