# Going from one dialect to another



## DerDrache

I have an opportunity to learn from a native Morrocan speaker who's willing to teach me in exchange for me helping him with English.

I could either work with him on classical Arabic or the colloquial language he speaks. I'm definitely thinking it's better to know the colloquial language, as speaking and understanding are harder to pick up than reading/writing.

Anyways, to be frank, Morrocan wouldn't really have been my first choice in dialects...I think the eastern versions sound a bit nicer (no offense intended to anyone ). However, it's a good opportunity, so I'll take it. My question: Would it be challenging to adapt to a different dialect after I learned this one?

I speak American English, and if I went to Australia I could put on an accent, learn some of the colloquial terms, and  I'd be speaking Aussie English. Is it somewhat similar with Arabic?

Thank you


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## elroy

I would say it depends on how proficient you get in Moroccan Arabic.

While Moroccan Arabic and Eastern Arabic are different to the point of limited mutual intelligibility, if you have a strong basis in Moroccan Arabic you'll be able to systematically identify the differences and learn Eastern Arabic without it influencing your Moroccan.  If your Moroccan is seriously lacking, however, it is likely you will end up confused.

So my advice to you would be to really work on one dialect until you achieve a decent level of fluency before moving on to another.

This would all be different if you were considering two similar dialects, like Lebanese and Jordanian for example.  Moroccan and Eastern are really very different.


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## DerDrache

Sounds reasonable.

Out of curiousity, what are the closest dialects to Morrocan? Like, is Egyptian perhaps mutually intelligible?


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## elroy

DerDrache said:


> Out of curiousity, what are the closest dialects to Morrocan? Like, is Egyptian perhaps mutually intelligible?


 I don't think so.  Egyptian is different from Eastern, but I'd say it's probably just as different from Moroccan as Eastern is.

I would say the dialects most similar to Moroccan are Algerian and Tunisian - but natives of those dialects are free to correct me.


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## MarcB

Your question is hard to answer, but I will try. Scholars classify Arabic into Eastern and Western. That does not mean that the two groups are mutually intelligible within each other. They do share some characteristics however. They are further divided into Gulf, Levantine, Egyptian and Maghreb (Western). Due to media and population size Egyptian is the most widely understood. It is important to know that in each country there are big differences between urban, rural and bedouin (many are now sedentary) they usually understand each other due to exposure .Egyptians and Levantine speakers can understand each other with some minor misunderstandings. Moroccans and Algerians the same.
Tunisians and Libyans the same. The decision to learn classical or spoken depends on your needs, most will say you should learn both if possible. Classical is much harder than spoken. My personal belief is it is easier to go from west to east. I do not mean any disrespect but Moroccan dialect is the farthest from all others in that its pronunciation is hardest for others to understand even when the vocabulary is the same as other variants. The reason is that they can cluster consonants with weak vowels.
Here is a comparison days of the week Gulf: Moroccan:
yoom is-sabt – Saturday yom ssbt
yoom il-a7ad – Sunday yom l’7dd
yoom il-ithneyn – Monday yom l’itnin
yoom il-thulathaa – Tuesday yom talat
yoom il-arbi3a - Wednesday yom l’arb3
yoom il-khamiis – Thursday yom l’khmis
yoom il-yim3a –Friday yom jjm3a
Friday yoom il gom3a in Egypt yoom il jom3a in Lebanon
As you can see they are the same just the pronunciation is different.
Anyway since you have a person to teach you learn the spoken form from that person and look at the resources sticky for other colloquial Arabic and MSA.
This site has several textbooks with dialects,one compares western to eastern.
http://fsi-language-courses.com/Arabic.aspx
(Western Arabic, Levantine Arabic, Egyptian Arabic, Saudi Arabic)


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## DerDrache

Thanks guys.

I suppose the best way of putting my question is: Do the majority of the differences come from the pronunciation, or actually the words and such themselves? To go back to my US English example...the main difference between US and Aussie English would be in the very distinct accents. Both dialects are English and usually mutually intelligible, though sometimes expressions need to be clarified, and sometimes the accent can be too thick to understand.

In other words, I'd say the difference between US and Aussie English is maybe...80-85% accent and 15-20% slang. Is it possible to quantify some of the Arabic dialects like that (particularly with Moroccan )?

Thanks a lot.

I also have a bit of a general question: This would be my first attempt at learning a language with the focus on the speaking/listening first. Any advice? I'm thinking I'll definitely bring a recorder...any other less obvious tips?


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## MarcB

Arabic dialects have more differences than English. Vocabulary
Differences maybe 10 % are completely different words, but sometimes similar words maybe hard to recognize due to pronunciation. Some of the grammar is also different. I still recommend while you learn Moroccan you try to familiarize yourself a little with MSA and other dialects.
Recommendations for learning yes a recorder is essential also a textbook because it is hard to learn if your teacher just chooses random phrases out of his head without structure. Again see the sticky for free texts. I also suggest that he divide the class into two parts. One with grammar and the other with pictures like clip art and he describes the pictures and scenes only in Arabic without translation. The first way will give you the structure and you can use translation, the second will allow you to think and speak without needing to translate. Also learn to read and write again free
in sticky and it does not take long to learn the alphabet.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

With a good knowledge of Moroccan and some basics in MSA you should be able to understand eastern Arabic,but they won't understand you.

What I did to make myself understood in the East whith my western Arabic was:

-learning to conjugate in eastern Arabic(saying saying ba3raf instead of kana3raf..etc)

-Trying to add vowels instinctively(for example in Moroccan we say "klb"=dog,so I just tried saying "kalab" and fortunately this was the way they say it.With experience,you will start to Know vowel changes between dialects)

-Learning the current words and expressions that are typical from the east(eg:zalame,halla2,shuu)

-Adopting their pronounciation(hamza or g instead of qaf,pronouning the ta marbuta "e" instead of "a" etc...)

So in conclusion,you can be understood in the east speaking a  "modified" Moroccan,and undestanding them is just a matter of time.

With pure Moroccan,as Elroy said,you will face problems communicating everywhere in the Arab world except Algeria who speak a very similar dialect.You can add Tunisia and Lybia but then,you will have to really master the Moroccan dialect to understand and being understood perfectly.

I also wanted to ask you DerDrache,which variety of Moroccan are you learning?From which city is you friend?


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## palomnik

DerDrache:

You really need to check out the link that MarcB sent you to the FSI if you haven't already.  it will answer just about all your questions about pronunciation vs. vocabulary differences.


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## Abu Rashid

If you were going to learn a dialect, then Moroccan should be your last choice. It is not really understood anywhere else in the Arabic world and is so different from the vast majority of dialects that it'd probably be useless to you in conversing with anyone else other than Moroccans.

Instead of comparing Arabic dialects to English dialects like American and Australian (which aren't really dialects) try comparing Standard English with a dialect like Norfuk or those strange dialects they speak in north east Canada, that would be more like it.

You're much better off learning MSA from your friend if possible, doesn't require reading and writing anymore than a colloquial dialect would really.


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## Taalib

I spent several months in Morocco several years ago, and in my informal lessons to learn daarija I did the following:

1) Write down EVERYTHING you hear, so you can replay it back in your head over and over again, and can accompany your recorded tapes with some written notes;
2) Ask your teacher to engage in the most basic language exercises, and try to induce what s/he is doing from those (i.e., conjugate a simple verb; order something; ask a question; etc.);
3) Try to master the accent as quickly as possible--you could have a photographic memory but people will find it hard to understand you in Morocco if you don't know the proper stress and syllable patterns;
4) Obtain other media--videos, tapes, and that sort--that have individuals speaking clearly in the daarija, and listen to those at least once a day.

Otherwise, it will take time, but eventually the dialect will start filtering in!

As others have said, it may be more recommendable to start with Modern Standard Arabic first: there are literally hundreds of textbooks for it, and being what some might call the "base" form of communicative Arabic, it is easier to "scale down" from this base and pick up a dialect, than to learn the dialect first, and then have to learn MSA and its accompanying grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation. 

However--and again, as others have said--if you only plan on staying in North Africa, then makes more sense to do Moroccan--but if you are starting to interact more and more with Arabic speech, media, etc., then it will do you little good to only master the dialect. Some Arabic speakers from the east and the south look down on the Moroccan tongue as unintelligible, alien, and (for the elitists) uneducated. I've watched programs on al-Jazeera where Moroccan callers and speakers are told, rudely, that their Arabic is no good and if they can't speak MSA then to not participate in the programming. Just another reminder that prejudice knows no cultural boundaries.


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## Qcumber

MarcB said:


> yoom is-sabt – Saturday yom ssbt
> yoom il-a7ad – Sunday yom l’7dd
> yoom il-ithneyn – Monday yom l’itnin
> yoom il-thulathaa – Tuesday yom talat
> yoom il-arbi3a - Wednesday yom l’arb3
> yoom il-khamiis – Thursday yom l’khmis
> yoom il-yim3a –Friday yom jjm3a


Aren't there schwas <e> in these Moroccan phrases?
e.g. yomes sebt

P.S. Sorry, I can't paste what I had prepared in MS-Word. The "paste" function is disabled in this forum when I write out an answer.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Abu Rashid said:


> If you were going to learn a dialect, then Moroccan should be your last choice. It is not really understood anywhere else in the Arabic world and is so different from the vast majority of dialects that it'd probably be useless to you in conversing with anyone else other than Moroccans.
> 
> Instead of comparing Arabic dialects to English dialects like American and Australian (which aren't really dialects) try comparing Standard English with a dialect like Norfuk or those strange dialects they speak in north east Canada, that would be more like it.
> 
> You're much better off learning MSA from your friend if possible, doesn't require reading and writing anymore than a colloquial dialect would really.


You're right that it's not the best choice to communicate throughout the Arab world but don't exagerate.Moroccans are well understood in Algeria,Tunisia,Mauritania and Lybia and if they manage to speak clearly and to avoid regional expressions they can globally be understood in the East.
I went to Syria and Jordan last summer,and I could still communicate with them better than any western tourist.As I said,I just had to avoid typical Moroccan vocabulary and taking the time to pick up their expressions and there were'nt any big problems.I have to admit of course that it would'nt be that easy if i didn't know a minimum of fus7a,even if my knowledge is poor,I can't say it didn't help.


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## Qcumber

My opinion is that what is called "dialects" here are languages. Each of these languages comprises several dialects (i.e. local or provincial varieties). For instance Egyptian Arabic is a language, not a dialect. Moroccan Arabic is a language, etc.
I'd rather compare these Arabic languages with Romance languages. They all come from Latin, but are not mutually intelligible.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Qcumber said:


> Aren't there schwas <e> in these Moroccan phrases?
> e.g. yomes sebt
> 
> P.S. Sorry, I can't paste what I had prepared in MS-Word. The "paste" function is disabled in this forum when I write out an answer.



Yes it's with schwa,but in some regional accents it sounds pratically like a sukkun(in the south,Marrakesh for example)

I also wanted to say that you will rarely hear "yuum es-sebt".We'd rather say "nhar es-sebt" or simply "es-sebt"


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## Anatoli

Qcumber said:


> My opinion is that what is called "dialects" here are languages. Each of these languages comprises several dialects (i.e. local or provincial varieties). For instance Egyptian Arabic is a language, not a dialect. Moroccan Arabic is a language, etc.
> I'd rather compare these Arabic languages with Romance languages. They all come from Latin, but are not mutually intelligible.


In countries speaking Romance languages they speak, read and write in the same language never ever switching to Latin in either formal or informal situations, they don't use Latin for education and other purposes where MSA is used. Arabic dialects are very different but they are not formalised and what is considered "correct" is often a personal or regional choice, not so with MSA.


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## DerDrache

Hm...thanks for all the advice. I'm a bit torn between a desire to speak the language of the people, and having the standard that is MSA. I definitely will be mastering the MSA, so...I suppose I should have that be the emphasis, and pick up some Morrocan basics just so I wouldn't let the opportunity go to waste.


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## palomnik

DerDrache:  I appreciate your inner conflict; to me, learning a language without learning how it's spoken on the street in daily life is somehow a difficult psychic hurdle.  The only solution is to learn MSA _and _a dialect - any dialect - pick one!  That's what I did; I picked Egyptian colloquial on the premise that it is probably more understood everywhere than any other, but the fact is that all the dialects, even Moroccan, resemble each other more from a grammatical point of view than any one of them resemble MSA.


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## Abu Rashid

Tariq,



> but don't exagerate.Moroccans are well understood in Algeria,Tunisia,Mauritania and Lybia and if they manage to speak clearly and to avoid regional expressions they can globally be understood in the East.


You have native proficiency in Maghrebi Dialect,  that's a lot different to someone who's about to begin learning. It would take them many many years to reach such a level (if it's even possible for an adult learner) that they'd be able to hold mutually intelligable conversations with people of other (eastern) dialects. I am not exaggerating at all. 

Qcumber,



> My opinion is that what is called "dialects" here are languages


This is not really a valid opinion. Seperate languages should be mutually unintelligable to one another and should require a translator to communicate between them, Arab dialects are mutually intelligable and require no translator. But don't feel bad in making an incorrect evaluation on this one, I've heard renowned linguists making the same incorrect assumptions about Arabic.



> I'd rather compare these Arabic languages with Romance languages. They all come from Latin, but are not mutually intelligible.


This is in fact an excellent comparison, and one I often make myself, but you need to look at the relationship of the Romance languages to Latin around about 1200 years ago. The Arabic dialects are pretty much the same thing as _sermo vulgaris _(vulgar latin), which was just the spoken form of Latin that began to form itself into different dialects in regions like Gaul and Iberia, and then eventually became the distinct Romance Languages we know today. Romance Languages and Latin today do not share the same relationship that MSA does with the dialects of Arabic, but perhaps in about another 500-1000 years, that may be the case (perhaps sooner, perhaps later who knows).

Interestingly is the fact that these two examples of language divergance occured for similar reasons eg. the disintegration of a central empire into regional principalities, which originally held their language in high regard, but later neglected it.


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## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> This is not really a valid opinion. Seperate languages should be mutually unintelligable to one another and should require a translator to communicate between them, Arab dialects are mutually intelligable and require no translator. But don't feel bad in making an incorrect evaluation on this one, I've heard renowned linguists making the same incorrect assumptions about Arabic.


I was told by a learned Algerian present at the event that Egyptian Pres. Naser visited Algeria after its independence, and made a solemn public speech in Egyptian Arabic. Nearly nobody understood him in Algiers. Therefore Algerian Arabic and Egyptian Arabic were different languages at that time.


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## elroy

Abu Rashid said:


> This is not really a valid opinion. Seperate languages should be mutually unintelligable to one another and should require a translator to communicate between them, Arab dialects are mutually intelligable and require no translator. But don't feel bad in making an incorrect evaluation on this one, I've heard renowned linguists making the same incorrect assumptions about Arabic.


 Well, isn't it dandy we have you to settle this issue for us!

The question regarding the difference between a language and a dialect is an immensely complex one that linguists have explored for decades, and it is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

Moroccan Arabic and Palestinian Arabic are less mutually intelligible than Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian - yet the latter are considered separate languages whereas the former are (officially) not.  Luxembourgish was considered a dialect of German until it was suddenly declared a distinct language in 1984 - a decision that had little to do with mutual intelligibility or lack thereof.

Beyond the basic linguistic factors you mention, there are complex political, social, and historical factors that play a significant - and arguably more decisive - role in the determination of whether a certain style of speech is a language or a dialect.


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## Nikola

If you wish to read al-Qur’an al-Kareem then it is classical Arabic for sure. Poetry or literature the same. If you wish to talk to people then it is spoken Arabic you need. There are few resources to learn spoken Arabic beyond a rudimentary level. There are many resources for classical, AKA MSA modern version there of. Since you have a live person who can teach you the spoken form, any spoken form is great. All of the comments given reflect the reality of Arabic there are many forms; spoken and written are not the same, etc. Some mention of prejudice was given; believe me there is some prejudice against many of the spoken forms, so what? I have learned Arabic through inadequate books and websites, with no formal instruction, class or teacher. I have been to several Arab countries from west to east. So I have had practice talking to people. I am at a beginning to intermediate level and about the same with Fursha. I can communicate with all colloquial Arabic at more or less the same level.
I know the principles i.e. the differences in grammar and pronunciation and some vocabulary. Again I am not completely fluent but I can carry on a basic simple conversation. Everyone understands me and I them (at a basic level) so if you learn one dialect (any) and learn comparisons you can communicate with anyone just ask them to speak slowly. People who have learned one dialect at the same level as me can communicate like me but not as universally. It is not really confusing to go from one dialect to another I can easily separate them in my mind, sure I make mistakes but, who doesn’t? remember they are very similar, some more than others, but again I know the fundamentals of several if you speak clearly and the others do so also you can communicate easily. To become completely fluent obviously takes a great deal of time and effort, but I can say that I know no more nor less than someone else who has invested the same amount of time. Reading is not so hard; to me the hardest part of fursha is speaking and correctly writing it without mistakes something most natives have trouble with. I have learned to write the dialects and applied it to fursha since writing without vowels is not dramatically different and the case endings are not needed to read only to write.
In conclusion if you want to speak learn colloquial Moroccan and look at the resources sticky here to familiarize yourself with other colloquial and fursha, I am sure your friend especially living outside of Morocco has been exposed to other dialects. Also being in Montreal you will most likely meet Algerians, Moroccans, Lebanese, Palestinians, Egyptians and Syrians and some Gulf Arabs at Universities.


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## alicatado

One great, often unnoticed perk about speaking Moroccan is that you can go all over Europe and find Moroccans to speak with even if you don't speak the local language. Trust me, it is very useful.

I agree with others that learning MSA is indispensable, especially if you are learning Moroccan and hope to converse with speakers of other dialects. I speak Moroccan fairly well, know my MSA grammar and verbs, and I'm familiar with how to conjugate verbs in the Eastern dialects. With this knowledge i can make myself understood with anyone that speaks Arabic, of course understanding others well that speak other dialects would require much more applied study.

I learned Moroccan many years ago and for many years I struggled with the fact that I learned a dialect that nobody knows, but I've come around to think that it is very useful and easily applicable.

Good Luck.


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## Ali Smith

Abu Rashid said:


> This is in fact an excellent comparison, and one I often make myself, but you need to look at the relationship of the Romance languages to Latin around about 1200 years ago. The Arabic dialects are pretty much the same thing as _sermo vulgaris _(vulgar latin), which was just the spoken form of Latin that began to form itself into different dialects in regions like Gaul and Iberia, and then eventually became the distinct Romance Languages we know today. Romance Languages and Latin today do not share the same relationship that MSA does with the dialects of Arabic, but perhaps in about another 500-1000 years, that may be the case (perhaps sooner, perhaps later who knows).



I've studied Latin, French, Italian, and a little Spanish. I have also studied classical Arabic and know a decent amount of colloquial Egyptian and a smattering of colloquial Levantine, and I think the Arabic dialects are about as different from classical Arabic as French, Italian, and Spanish are from Latin.


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