# Persian: xarĉang/ خرچنگ (crab) and PIE roots *qarq-/qar-tu-



## PersoLatin

Is all, or the initial 3 letters, of xarĉang (crab) related to PIE root *qarq-, or *qar-tu-? The explanation I know is: xar + ĉang meaning large + claws/talons, but if xar is cognate with *qarq-, or *qar-tu-, that would also make sense.  

cancer (n.) 


Old English cancer "spreading sore, cancer" (also canceradl), from Latin cancer "a crab," later, "malignant tumor," from Greek karkinos, which, like the Modern English word, has three meanings: crab, tumor, and the zodiac constellation (late Old English), from PIE root *qarq- "to be hard" (like the shell of a crab); source also of *Sanskrit karkatah "crab," karkarah "hard;"* and perhaps cognate with PIE root *qar-tu- "hard, strong," source of English hard.


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## CyrusSH

I thought the same about _xargush_ (hare), in Hindi/Urdu other than _khargush_, the word _kharha_ is also used for "hare". I think proto-IE _*kar-_ could used as a prefix to form names of animals.


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## sotos

Consider also: Greek καρχαρίας (shark) Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κα^ρυ_κ-εύω , καρχα^ρ-ίας

καρχαλέος (rough) Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κα^ρυ_κ-εύω , καρχα^λέος  and other words from καρχ-.


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## Treaty

"Crab" starts with [k] in MP _karčang_, _karžang_ or _qiržang _not [x] or . So, I guess at least the "big-claw" etymology is not the case.


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## CyrusSH

In Persian _kelenjar_, _kerenjal_ also means "crab": معنی کلنجار | لغت‌نامه دهخدا


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## desi4life

CyrusSH said:


> I thought the same about _xargush_ (hare), in Hindi/Urdu other than _khargush_, the word _kharha_ is also used fore "hare". I think proto-IE _*kar-_ could used as a prefix to form names of animals.



I think _xargush _(_xargosh _in Hindi/Urdu) and _kharhaa _both mean "donkey-eared". The hare has a long ear like that of a donkey.


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## CyrusSH

desi4life said:


> I think _xargush _(_xargosh _in Hindi/Urdu) and _kharhaa _both mean "donkey-eared". The hare has a long ear like that of a donkey.



_haa_ means "ear" in Hindi/Urdu?


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## desi4life

CyrusSH said:


> _haa_ means "ear" in Hindi/Urdu?



No, I'm basing it on a reconstructed *_kharabhaka _"hare" as indicated by Turner.

kharabhaka 3823 **kharabhaka* ʻ hare ʼ. [ʻ longeared like a donkey ʼ: khara -- 1?]
N. _kharāyo_ ʻ hare ʼ, Or. _kharā_, _°riā_, _kherihā_, Mth. _kharehā_, H. _kharahā_ m.


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> *I think *_*xargush* _(_xargosh _in Hindi/Urdu) and _kharhaa _both *mean "donkey-eared"*. The hare has a long ear like that of a donkey.


I agree, _xar _in _xarĉang _can't be the same as in _*xarguŝ*_ and that's why I asked the question .

MP xarbuz means oryx, and this time xar must refer to the body size i.e. "donkey-sized goat" which can easily develop into "large goat" hence 'xar meaning large, in some compound words'.


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## PersoLatin

sotos said:


> Consider also: Greek καρχαρίας (shark) Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κα^ρυ_κ-εύω , καρχα^ρ-ίας
> 
> καρχαλέος (rough) Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κα^ρυ_κ-εύω , καρχα^λέος and other words from καρχ-.


NP & MP also has خار/xâr (thorn, thistle, prickle, bramble) as in xârpuŝt/thorny-back (porcupine), also there's NP خارا/xârâ (granite)

The Greek karkinos "cancer," literally "crab", is close to MP karĉang/karzang but that can't be it as it casts doubts on the meaning of the second part _ĉang_, which we are sure is _claws_.


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## CyrusSH

desi4life said:


> No, I'm basing it on a reconstructed *_kharabhaka _"hare" as indicated by Turner.
> 
> kharabhaka 3823 **kharabhaka* ʻ hare ʼ. [ʻ longeared like a donkey ʼ: khara -- 1?]
> N. _kharāyo_ ʻ hare ʼ, Or. _kharā_, _°riā_, _kherihā_, Mth. _kharehā_, H. _kharahā_ m.



Is it a compound or not? Does _abhaka_ mean "ear"?


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## desi4life

***_kharabhaka_, if such a form existed, would literally mean "like a donkey". I think "long-eared" was just an inference by Turner. I noticed Turner put a "?" in the explanation of the reconstructed form, meaning he felt uncertain about it. I found an updated etymology that considers Hindi _kharhā _to be derived from a Dravidian language loanword, in which case _kharhā _ would have no connection to "donkey" or to the Persian _xargūŝ. _A Persian dictionary explains the literal meaning of_ xargūŝ_ as "ass-ear".

Meanwhile, Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary expresses an uncertainty about *_karzang_ and mentions the transcription to be doubtful, which means *_karzang _may not be the correct word in Pahlavi. Is k > x a typical sound shift from Pahlavi to Persian?  It doesn't seem that way from the words I looked at.


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## CyrusSH

desi4life said:


> ***_kharabhaka_, if such a form existed, would literally mean "like a donkey". I think "long-eared" was just an inference by Turner. I noticed Turner put a "?" in the explanation of the reconstructed form, meaning he felt uncertain about it. I found an updated etymology that considers Hindi _kharhā _to be derived from a Dravidian language loanword, in which case _kharhā _ would have no connection to "donkey" or to the Persian _xargūŝ. _A Persian dictionary explains the literal meaning of_ xargūŝ_ as "ass-ear".
> 
> Meanwhile, Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary expresses an uncertainty about *_karzang_ and mentions the transcription to be doubtful, which means *_karzang _may not be the correct word in Pahlavi. Is k > x a typical sound shift from Pahlavi to Persian?  It doesn't seem that way from the words I looked at.



I believe the fist part _khar_ has an Indo-European origin but the second part _gush_ probably relates to _lagush/laghush_ (لاغوش) which is loanword from Greek _lagoos_. In fact _khargush_ could be a product of mixing different words.


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## Derakhshan

PersoLatin said:


> MP xarbuz means oryx, and this time xar must refer to the body size i.e. "donkey-sized goat" which can easily develop into "large goat" hence 'xar meaning large, in some compound words'.


I think this and similar words is how _xar_ came to mean "big". _xarvâr_ means "a load a donkey can carry", which is a large weight.

I know that _xar_ is still used in some dialects as an adjective meaning "huge", like _xar dig e!_ "It's a huge pot!" although it's considered rather informal.


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## PersoLatin

Derakhshan said:


> I think this and similar words is how _xar_ came to mean "big". _xarvâr_ means "a load a donkey can carry", which is a large weight


This is not the same as those where خر/xar means large/big, خروار is colloquial for خربار/xarbâr “donkey load”, used as a measure/size where xar/خر really means a donkey.


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## Derakhshan

That's what I mean; it must have originated in terms where خر really meant "donkey", but since خربار is a large weight, it reinforced the connotation of "big". The same with _xarbuz_ as you had explained in that quote.


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## fdb

It has been suggested that xar-gōš (ostensibly: “donkey’s ear”) is a folk-etymological reinterpretation of Middle Persian *dagr-gōš “long eared”  > *darg-gōš > xargōš. The prefix xar- “big” was then abstracted from this. This is supported by Digor тӕрхъос , Iron тӕрхъус “hare”.

Persian karzang > xarčang displays the same sort of folk etymology.


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## PersoLatin

fdb said:


> Persian karzang > xarčang displays the same sort of folk etymology.


Thanks fdb, can the difference between the transcription in MP for 'kar' and 'xar' be explained?


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## Vukabular

PersoLatin said:


> Is all, or the initial 3 letters, of xarĉang (crab) related to PIE root *qarq-, or *qar-tu-? The explanation I know is: xar + ĉang meaning large + claws/talons, but if xar is cognate with *qarq-, or *qar-tu-, that would also make sense.
> 
> cancer (n.)
> 
> 
> Old English cancer "spreading sore, cancer" (also canceradl), from Latin cancer "a crab," later, "malignant tumor," from Greek karkinos, which, like the Modern English word, has three meanings: crab, tumor, and the zodiac constellation (late Old English), from PIE root *qarq- "to be hard" (like the shell of a crab); source also of *Sanskrit karkatah "crab," karkarah "hard;"* and perhaps cognate with PIE root *qar-tu- "hard, strong," source of English hard.


In my opinion all these words: _xarĉang, crab, karkatah, kharha, καρχαρίας, shark, καρχαλέος, karčang, kharhaa, خار/xâr , crown, horn..... _and Serbian words: _rak_ "cancer", _kraba_ "crab", _kruna_ "crown", _krak_ "prong", _zrak_ "ray", _korak_ "footstep", _karpati_ "carpathians", _krap_ "carp" and many more are derivated from _*kr-_ >> _*kar- _related to the shape ▲▲ and something sharp and pointed like donkey ears, horns, crown, crab claws, top of the mountain, shark teeth, fish scales (carp)....in Serbian fish scales - "krljušt"


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## PersoLatin

Vukabular said:


> In my opinion all these words: _xarĉang, crab, karkatah, kharha, καρχαρίας, shark, καρχαλέος, karčang, kharhaa, خار/xâr , crown, horn..... _and Serbian words: _rak_ "cancer", _kraba_ "crab", _kruna_ "crown", _krak_ "prong", _zrak_ "ray", _korak_ "footstep", _karpati_ "carpathians", _krap_ "carp" and many more are derivated from _*kr-_ >> _*kar- _related to the shape ▲▲ and something sharp and pointed like donkey ears, horns, crown, crab claws, top of the mountain, shark teeth, fish scales (carp)....in Serbian fish scales - "krljušt"


Thank you. I now believe _kar_ in _karĉang _(crab) meant 'hard' along the lines of what you say, but because of the of oversized appearance of its claw(s), _kar_ took on a secondary meaning of large/big, at some point k>x happened too and the rest is.....


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