# Gender of nouns when Code-Mixing



## Bird in a Forest

Hello everyone,

What is the default gender of nouns when using English words (not Lehnwörter [Loanwords])?
I know that nouns which follow the gender rules of the German language take on the respective article.

E.g. the Stapler -> der Stapler (Code-Mixing, not a German word or loanword) [-er words are mostly der]

But what about other nouns that don't fit in with the German gender rules?

E.g. the Jumping-jack -> ?
the Godzilla -> ?
the Table -> ? (Not der Tisch, as a code-mixed word, so der/die/das Table)
the Awesomeness -> ?
the Skydive Attack (Imagine this is a game translated into German where the developer wanted to keep the English name of the move) -> ?
the Jack-Sparrow (this a new Kung-Fu just made up by me XD) -> ?

(Things like brand names often take a the in front of them when they are in a sentence but many aren't actual words)
the Lego
the Pokemon

Or when using a word transliterated from Chinese or Japanese which has no articles.

E.g. the Biang Biang Mian (a type of noodle whose name has no translation)
the Ga li la sha
the Xiao Long Bao (type of dumpling)
the Onigiri
the Takuyaki
the Tabi (type of shoe)
the Guzheng (an instrument)
the Bento
the Su lao dai
the San ming zhi
the Shiitake

And what gender do made-up nouns get?

the Wackakadoozle -> ?
the Krackadong -> ?
the Grechtareinakt -> ?

Name of sounds?
the Meow -> der/die/das Miau ?
the Woosh -> 
the Kawazz -> 
the Bzzzz (of the alarm etc.) ->
the Grrrrrrrr ->

Thank you


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## Frieder

_Stapler _is a German word meaning _forklift_ deriving
from _stapeln _= to stack.
The English word _stapler _translates to "Hefter", 
"Klammeraffe" or even "Tacker".

Godzilla is a name, so there's no gender attached,
but seeing it as a big bad monster it has to be
male, hasn't it? 

_Der _Round Table, because Tisch is male. I really
hate this expression.

Skydive Attack and Jack-Sparrow are names, so
they don't have an article. Same goes for Lego.

For those who know that Pokémon is a contaction
of _pocket _and _monster _it seems clear that it has
to be _das _Pokémon, because Monster is neuter
in German.

For Chinese words it's more difficult. I'd try to look
them up in a dictionary (German) and if it can't be
found there, I'd either define it as neuter or as a
name.

If you make up a noun, you're free to invent the
corresponding gender as well .

Animal sounds tend to be neuter in German: das 
Miauen, das Iahen, das Muhen, das Bellen. Other
noises, such as woosh, grrrr and so forth don't
have any gender -  but I could contrive sentences
like "ein grollendes Grrrr kam aus seiner Kehle"
where Grrr would be neuter as well.

I'm sure other members will find counterexamples,
so I apologize in advance for possible errors.


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## susanainboqueixon

Don't you often use the gender of the German word that might be used to complete/explain the foreign word? "Der Pilz", daher "der Shiitake(pilz)", or in plural "die Shiitake(pilze)"?

As to sounds, I'd always use "das", "das Miau(en)", as it's also "das Bellen (der Hunde)", "das Muhen (der Kühe)".

Regards,
Susana


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## Bird in a Forest

Thank you Frieder and Susana,

It seems to be that when it comes to uncommon foreign words there is a bit of freedom or ambiguity in their gender. 

So when Code-Mixing, the gender can also be based on the German gender of the equivalent noun? That isn't too helpful as usually you Code-Mix when you don't know the word in the target language.

As for the Jack-Sparrow, I was thinking of one time where my friend said he could do "the Jack-Sparrow". To say "I can do Jack-Sparrow." doesn't really sound right. With names, I'm guessing you use the der for male names and die for females. (Ich kann den Jack-Sparrow schaffen) .

Is "das" the default for all uncategorised foreign words or is it a stylistic choice?
E.g. das/die E-mail.


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## Schimmelreiter

Bird in a Forest said:


> What is the default gender of nouns when using English words


Just to make sure I got the topic right: Code-mixing is about mutual interference of languages, e.g. in bilingual families:
_
Ich hab einen richtigen Anger, dass wir ausgerechnet heute in der Science Class ein Paper schreiben, you know._

So the topic is: Why, in my sentence, is _Anger_ masculine, _Science Class_ feminine, and _Paper _neuter, true?

This is probably going to be one of the longer threads, so I'd like to be clear.





Bird in a Forest said:


> the Awesomeness


That's an easy one: _die Awesomeness_ (cf. our nouns ending in _-nis_, e.g. _die Finsternis_​)


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## Hutschi

If the names are names of ships, it is usually female.

A name may have an article as you see with my own name "der Bernd".
However in the North it is not common to use names with article.

Names use either the natural gender, if available, or it depends on the special name.

Often a name is transfered to a product. "Das Tempo" (-Taschentuch), das Nokia, der Wolga (ein Auto).

---

And what gender do made-up nouns get?

the Wackakadoozle -> ?
the Krackadong -> ?
the Grechtareinakt -> ?

Here it depends on context.

Spontaneously I assign

the Wackakadoozle -> der
the Krackadong -> das
the Grechtareinakt -> der (Akt)

But this is not by rule but by imagination.


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## Schimmelreiter

Bird in a Forest said:


> E-mail


I knew I had to ask my clarifying question in #5. 

Unlike _Awesomeness_, _E-Mail_ *is a German** word*. When a foreign word has become a _Fremdwort_, it's no longer (only) a foreign word but it is now also a German word.

So _Awesomeness_ is about code-mixing, _E-Mail_ isn't.


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## Bird in a Forest

Schimmelreiter, you are pretty much on the ball with that. So why is Anger masculine, Science Class feminine and Paper neuter XD

Hutschi, so normal names are neutral for non-human objects. With people, do they use der for males and die for females? Also, why is it der Wolga and not das Wolga?
Also, by it depends on context, what does that mean? Could you possibly provide me with an example so I can understand a little better?

Let's say that Wackakadoozle is an animate object.
Krackadong is the name of an inanimate object.
And Grechtareinakt is an arbitrary concept of pure die Awesomeness and everything related to Kung-Fu, Afros and fried rice.


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Animal sounds tend to be neuter in German: das
> Miauen, das Iahen, das Muhen, das Bellen.


Those words are neuter because they are deverbal infinitives, not because they are animal sounds. Infinitives are always neuter.


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## Bird in a Forest

Does E-mail having multiple pronunciations have something to do with regional choices of gender during its importation?


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## Bird in a Forest

In that case is Miau der/die or das. I know woof is der Wuff but I'm not sure why.


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## Hutschi

_
Hutschi, so normal names are neutral for non-human objects. _
For non-human objects it is complicate. In all diminutive forms it is neutre, also for human.
In other forms it depends mostly on analogy.


_
With people, do they use der for males and die for females? 
Yes, - but not fot parts of humans like heads and hairs.

Also, why is it der Wolga and not das Wolga?_
I cannot say. Maybe because it is a russian car. I a certein way it is a name, but it is a brand name.

_Also, by it depends on context, what does that mean? Could you possibly provide me with an example so I can understand a little better?_

If I have a word which sounds invented, there are no rules other than some default naming rules.

_Let's say that Wackakadoozle is an animate object.

_It may have all three articles. The difference is not whether it is animated.
Das Krokodil.
Der Elefant.
Die Meise.
Der Kahn.
Das Auto.

_
Krackadong is the name of an inanimate object.
_
The same. It does not depend on animation._

And Grechtareinakt is an arbitrary concept of pure die Awesomeness and everything related to Kung-Fu, Afros and fried rice._


Let's say that Wackakadoozle is an animate object.
Krackadong is the name of an inanimate object.

And Grechtareinakt is an arbitrary concept of pure die Awesomeness and everything related to Kung-Fu, Afros 
and fried rice. 

It does not depend on this.

Der Schrecken, die Furcht, das Angstgefühl.
---

If I have a similar animal, say a Krokodil, I would use "das" - Wackakadoozle 
If it is a Alligator, I would prefer "der" - Wackadoozle.

If the context is a list of sounds, it is neutre.
If it is the name of a ship, it is female.


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## Bird in a Forest

Oh, so the article would be based on the similarity of the made-up object to real life objects.

Could  the arbitrary concept take any gender since it is not directly related  to anything? (unless you can find me a German word about awesomeness,  kung-fu, afros and fried rice XD)

I am aware of the gender  allocation rules for nouns. However, in the case that none of these  rules do not match the Code-Mixed or made-up word and it does not have any equivalent or similar word in German, which gender would  the word take, or would it not matter.

In response to Schimmelreiter's post, wouldn't it be der Paper, not das Paper, due to the -er ending. I'm also guessing it is die Science Class because of die Klasse.


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## layman_linguist

I don't think the fact of a noun being a name or denoting a male has something to do with its grammatical gender. Speaking German, if I am to say something like 'I hate that awful Godzilla' or if I have to address the monster (in a friendly way) 'Dear Godzilla!' or if I get tired of repeating its name and would like to refer to it using a personal or possessive pronoun, I have no other choice but to assign a grammatical gender to the noun, I can't leave it unexpressed in those phrases (even though it would be possible in others).


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## berndf

layman_linguist said:


> I don't think the fact of a noun being a name or denoting a male has something to do with its grammatical gender. Speaking German, if I am to say something like 'I hate that awful Godzilla' or if I have to address the monster (in a friendly way) 'Dear Godzilla!' or if I get tired of repeating its name and would like to refer to it using a personal or possessive pronoun, I have no other choice but to assign a grammatical gender to the noun, I can't leave it unexpressed in those phrases (even though it would be possible in others).


Absolutely right. And it is _der Gozilla_.


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## Schimmelreiter

Bird in a Forest said:


> wouldn't it be der Paper, not das Paper, due to the -er ending


It's the similarity to _das Papier_ that comes into play here. 

_Das Paper _is also a *German word*, by the way, under my above definition: Diplomats say things like _Das ist kein Paper, das ist ein Non-Paper_. So it's _foreign officialese_​, if you permit me the pun (from _The Foreign Office _). 





Bird in a Forest said:


> I'm also guessing it is die Science Class because of die Klasse.


Yes, certainly.


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## Bird in a Forest

Hmmm... Do the similarity rules take precedence over the other gender rules?
Or is this only true for Code-Mixing and not for actual Lehnwort German words? However, if das Paper is a German word...


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## berndf

Bird in a Forest said:


> ...wouldn't it be der Paper, not das Paper, due to the -er ending.


It is _der Paper_ but that is a totally different word and pronounced differently. It is a male person who chats (>_papen = to chat_).   (The verb is obsolete, though.)

Now seriously: For _-er_ to be recognized as a suffix, _Pap-_ had to have a meaning in itself that is relevant and recognizable in the word. That is not the case here.


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## berndf

Bird in a Forest said:


> Hmmm... Do the similarity rules take precedence over the other gender rules?
> Or is this only true for Code-Mixing and not for actual Lehnwort German words? However, if das Paper is a German word...


It is of course a _Lehnwort_. I guess what SR meant was that ir has been properly "naturalized" and is not a_ Fremdwort_ any more.


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## Bird in a Forest

So -er only creates der words when it is a suffix which denotes male actors of an action? However, Computer became a der word when it was imported and Comp- isn't a German stem. In this case, was it because -er was being used as a suffix to compute *in English*? I'm curious as to which rules take precedence, similarity or gender rules.


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## berndf

Bird in a Forest said:


> So -er only creates der words when it is a suffix which denotes male actors of an action? However, Computer became a der word when it was imported and Comp- isn't a German stem. In this case, was it because -er was being used as a suffix to compute *in English*? I'm curious as to which rules take precedence, similarity or gender rules.


Computer is derived from the verb _to compute_ and that is recognizable for German as well (cf. _der Rechner_).


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## Schimmelreiter

Bird in a Forest said:


> Hmmm... Do the similarity rules take precedence over the other gender rules?
> Or is this only true for Code-Mixing and not for actual Lehnwort German words? However, if das Paper is a German word...


_Das Paper _is a German _Fremdwort_.

We should not mix up terms:

(1) You keep speaking of _Lehnwörter_. One of them is _Fenster_, from Latin _fenestra__. _Hadn't we loaned it, we'd say _Windauge_ (cf. _wind-ow _). So _Lehnwörter _are none of our business here.

(2) Then there are _Fremdwörter_. They are German words, too. We deal with them at our discretion. We say _das Chanson _despite _la chanson_, probably to show everybody that we are good enough at French to know that it means _das Lied_. And when diplomats say _das Non-Paper_, it's because of _das Papier_.

(3) And then there are all other words of all other languages of the world, that is to say those that haven't (yet) made it into German as either _Lehnwörter_ or _Fremdwörter._ You can identify them with ease: They are not in Duden. (Yes, _das Paper _und _das Non-Paper_ are in Duden and, hence, not in this category should you care to ask.)

The thrilling question, to me, is this: Which gender are the words from category 3 if and when we do choose to use them in a German sentence? For instance because we are children, live in a bilingual family, and the appropriate German word doesn't come to mind. The lesser interest I take in (1) and (2) is due to the fact that their gender can be looked up in Duden anyway. As this thread is entitled _Gender of nouns when *code-mixing*_, may I say that categories 1 & 2 don't have much to do with _​code-mixing._


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> And when diplomats say _das Non-Paper_, it's because of _das Papier_.


It is _das Non-Paper _because it is _das Paper_ which is a Fremdword in its own right and not restricted to diplomatic lingo. And it is _das Paper_ because there is a cognate Lehnwort _das Papier_.


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## Hutschi

I think in case of "Der Computer" it is because of the analogy to "der Rechner".

Compare die Rechenmaschine - here gender refers to the machine: Die Maschine.

One very fix rule exists: 
If you have combined words the gender is defined by the last word (the defining word).

You can combine all your example words with "Gemurmel" (hum)
It always is "das".
das Rechnergemurmel
das Paper-Gemurmel
usw.

At the moment I am not aware to any exception to this rule.


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## cuore romano

_Also, why is it der Wolga and not das Wolga?

_Maybe because it refers to _der Wagen_ and not to _das Auto._


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Bird in a Forest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... Do the similarity rules take precedence over the other gender rules?
> Or is this only true for Code-Mixing and not for actual Lehnwort German words? However, if das Paper is a German word...
> 
> 
> 
> It is of course a _Lehnwort_. I guess what SR meant was that ir has been properly "naturalized" and is not a_ Fremdwort_ any more.
Click to expand...

Of course _Paper_ is a _Fremdwort_. _Fenster_ is a _Lehnwort. _Both _Fremdwörter_ and _Lehnwörter_​ are German words (see #22).


From the English perspective: _angst_ is an English word, _Furcht _isn't.


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## Hutschi

You can see the development from a Fremdwort to a Lehnwort at the example "Keks".

cake - ein Kek, viele Keks - ein Keks, viele Keks/viele Kekse
das Keks. (Ist heute völlig eingedeutscht, einschließlich Schreibweise, Pluralbildung und Aussprache).


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## Bird in a Forest

To attempt to answer (3) of Schimmelreiter's post based on what's been gathered in this thread, it would seem when code-mixing any gender rules would be applied first, then if there are any similarities to known German words the article of the German word will be used, if the language of the foreign word already has articles then those might be used, if all else fails it seems it is up to the discretion of the speaker. Since the words are not classified in duden, it would be difficult to criticise someone for using a wrong article.

I would have to say that if I had to choose any article for a word I would initially go to das because it is called the neutral article, then der because it composes the majority of German words, then die last.

However, if the foreign word felt feminine or masculine I might go for the respective article. E.g. I might say die Hana (Japanese for flower) [assume I didn't know the German word die Blume]. And then perhaps der Huo (Chinese for the fire) [again assuming I am code-mixing because I can't recall the German word for fire].

Also, am I correct in asserting that a Lehnwort is a loanword that has been incorporated into the German language and therefore may have been changed by German morphology (like a foreigner who is living in a new country but has adapted to the customs and essential like the natives in that country) and a Fremdwort is a word which is still in the duden but retains its original form where essentially it is if we copied and pasted the original word (like a tourist who sticks out).


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## cuore romano

Danke, Hutschi 
War mir neu, dass man auch _das_ Keks sagen kann.


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## berndf

Most words actually "feel" masculine, feminine or neuter. Casting it into an algorithm doesn't work. This "feelings" are ultimately derived from many different analogies and one of them is usually the strongest. You forgot should also remember, that certain semantic noun classes have preferred gender, i.e. abstract nouns are preferably feminine except for infinitives that are neuter.


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## Bird in a Forest

That's true, is that like how certain groups of nouns have a tendency to be a certain gender.
E.g. Most fruits are die (except der Apfel)

The gender when code-mixing would also be based on these "feelings".


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## Schimmelreiter

Bird in a Forest said:


> I would have to say that if I had to choose any article for a word I would initially go to das because it is called the neutral article


There's no such thing as a *neutral* or default gender or article. It's called *neuter* because the Romans were too lazy to invent a name for it, so they said it's _*neither of the two*_, i.e. neither masculine nor feminine.




cuore romano said:


> War mir neu, dass man auch _das_ Keks sagen kann.


Aber auch in Gegenden, in denen es _das_ Keks gibt, geht einem einer auf _den_ Keks, nehm' ich mal ganz heftig an.


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## Hutschi

cuore romano said:


> Danke, Hutschi
> War mir neu, dass man auch _das_ Keks sagen kann.


http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Keks
Und mir war "der Keks" nicht bewusst (außer umgangssprachlich für "Kopf")


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## Hutschi

Bird in a Forest said:


> That's true, is that like how certain groups of nouns have a tendency to be a certain gender.
> E.g. Most fruits are die (except der Apfel)
> 
> The gender when code-mixing would also be based on these "feelings".


Also "der Pfirsich", "der Wein"  (as mass noun, but a single one is "die Weinbeere").


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