# Should Japanese people be trained to pronounce some foreign sounds?



## Anatoli

My previous post was ignored but what do you think, Flaminus, as a native speaker, should Japanese people be trained to pronounce some foreign sounds, which don't exist in native Japanese words? - v, l (the Japanese version of f [ɸ] is fine) and consonant combinations?

By the way, the Russian letter "ф" (f) looks the IPA symbol ɸ but it is pronounced exactly like English f, not Japanese f in ふ.

*[Flaminius: this thread is a spin-off from **here**]*


----------



## Aoyama

If the topic is *Should Japanese people be trained to pronounce some foreign sounds? *(Not limited to f/v), then there is a lot to say about the problem.
As a teacher of french in Japan, I encounter daily the need to answer that pivotal question.
First of all, mastering good pronunciation is essentially linked to unable the foreign speaker of a given language to make him/herself understood clearly. Having an accent or trying to loose it is not the point here, mastering special "sounds" in the target language is, because it will ensure good understanding.
French offers here a good example. We know that japanese possesses "romance" vowels : *a,i,u,e,o* , basically the same as in other romance languages like italian, spanish, portuguese, latin etc. French also belongs to the romance language group but because of various historical and geographical influences it is, so to speak, the least "romance" of the romance languages. 
The most striking differences can already be found in the vowels :
french has 12 basic vowels (11+1), japanese just 5
without getting into tedious details, one of the big differences resides in the japanese* u* versus the french (sorry, no phonetic signs here) *u,eu,oeu,e,ou* 5 sounds close to te japanese *u*, but at the same time completely different. 
Mastering these different sounds is very difficult for most japanese speakers (much more than *r/l, f/v/b*).
Many french words change meaning within that vowel change frame :
*mu,me, mou // vu,veux, vous// fu, feu, fou // bu, boeufs,boue *etc. 
You could have words like *humeur/humour* (both linked to english _humor_), which will end up being, for a japanese speaker as *humu**r *the little *u* being a "japanese *u*".
So called "nasal vowels" ( another difference between french and other romance languages), will also pose a problem (though not as difficult to overcome). French *in,ain,ein,en,un,an,on *etc versus the japanese *an,in,un,en,on* (*n* is pronounced here)...
So,*should Japanese people be trained to pronounce some foreign sounds? *I guess, inevitably, they should, as much as say French people should learn how to master (and differentiate) *ha/a, ho/o, hi/i, he/e *and tell the difference between *hana/ana, hebi/ebi,hori/ori *and the like.


----------



## Anatoli

Thanks for your interesting answer, Aoyama-san. I think French is much less popular or less known in Japan than English, so French words will be distorted even more by a Japanese speaker.  By far, not all English speakers can pronounce French names.

As for French people, if they can pronounce they do pronounce some foreign words with H. Interesting that some English words are pronounced with the accent on the right syllable. Another new sound for French is "ng" (e.g. Hamington), which they may pronounce as both ['am_in_t_on_], dropping H and _in_ and _on_ being the French nasals or exactly as in English.

Another question. Should new letters/combinations/diacritics be introduced into Japanese to show the difference between L/R, for example? Japanese has now a symbol for V, which is not always used but at least helps to identify where V, not B was/should be pronounced. An should there be a symbol to identify consonants wihout vowels?

Different languages adopt foreign words differently. E.g. in German foreign words are often pronounced _*exactly*_ as in the original language, especially English and French words and nobody cringes. It's a bit strange to hear German and English "R" mixed in the same sentence. All french nasal sounds, eu, u,etc and English "th", r and others are pronounced very close to the original (if it's known). I noticed this happens with Polish words (quite different pronunciation  from German).


----------



## Flaminius

Now that _kana_s have been all mapped in Unicode and other IT standards, I am afraid it has little too confusing to create new _kana _notations now, be it for lone consonants or new syllabic combinations.  From what I understand how Japanese are eager to mix Latin alphabet into their texts, new _kana _notations are very redundant.

Scholars of the Ainu language used ト゜as a notation for /tu/ as opposed to ツ, which is /tsu/.  As has been said in the previous thread, foreing language teachers may be tirelessly creating origina _kana _notations to accommodate the needs of the target language.  However, they are hardly popular outside the class.  For me it is unthinkable not to use IPA or at least a broad notation system based on IPA.

Anatoli, I would like to rephrase your original question as "to what degree it is possible to embed the phonology of L1 into that of L2 and vice versa (where L1 is Japanese and L2 is French, Chinese, English or anylang)."  
An answer to the should-question needs to be based on the can-question.

I will write my answers later.  ^ ^

Flam


----------



## Anatoli

Thanks Flaminius, I am looking forward to your answers both about can and should. 



> From what I understand how Japanese are eager to mix Latin alphabet into their texts, new _kana _notations are very redundant.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic about eagreness. What's the best method to describe phonlogy in a popular Japanese text in your opinion, apart from IPA? Would you prefer Latin?


----------



## sneeka2

Anatoli said:


> Another question. Should new letters/combinations/diacritics be introduced into Japanese to show the difference between L/R, for example? Japanese has now a symbol for V, which is not always used but at least helps to identify where V, not B was/should be pronounced. An should there be a symbol to identify consonants wihout vowels?



I don't think it'd make much sense to introduce new kana. The Japanese are already used to the latin alphabet, i.e. they can read it, so the needed letters are already there. What would need to be raised is the awareness that the pronunciation of some foreign sounds simply *cannot* be represented in kana and don't exist in Japanese, hence urging learners of foreign languages to actually learn new sounds. Much like native French speakers need to learn a proper /h/ and almost all non-English speakers need to learn a /th/ etc.

As you pointed out yourself Germans tend to adopt the original pronunciation of an English or French word (albeit being mixed up with an accent often enough). I wonder why everything is being "Japanesed" in Japan.


----------



## gaer

Anatoli said:


> My previous post was ignored but what do you think, Flaminus, as a native speaker, should Japanese people be trained to pronounce some foreign sounds, which don't exist in native Japanese words? - v, l (the Japanese version of f [ɸ] is fine) and consonant combinations?
> 
> By the way, the Russian letter "ф" (f) looks the IPA symbol ɸ but it is pronounced exactly like English f, not Japanese f in ふ.
> 
> *[Flaminius: this thread is a spin-off from **here**]*


English is unusual, I think, in its tendency to preserve correct spellings in other languages such as French, Spanish, Italian, German, and so on, and this happens because our spelling is already so weird. Countless words are borrowed directly from other languages, with the spelling kept as it is IF it uses the Roman alphabet.

However, the moment you are talking about Russian words or words using another alphabet, we do not better with such words than Japan does with our words.

Please consider the situation in reverse. I would wager that more than half the people who participate in this forum either read ONLY romaji or are more comfortable with romaji than with kana and kanji.

Personally, I think that romaji is a horribly inaccurate system of representing Japanese. It gives us (those of us who are trying to learn the language) the illusion that we are pronouncing Japanese correctly, when in fact we are not.

So my first question would be: should those learning Japanese be trained to prounounce Japanese correctly!

(My answer: yes!)

Gaer

Gaer


----------



## karuna

gaer said:


> So my first question would be: should those learning Japanese be trained to pronounce Japanese correctly!



That goes without saying. However I tried learning Japanese from Pimsleur audio courses at first, without even looking at any writen material at all. I had two problems with pronunciation: (1) that sometimes I heard extra n in phrases like "_takusan suru koto *n*ga arimasu_". But it wasn't consistent so I wasn't sure if it is my hearing that is deficient or something else is there. When I inquired others they simply said that there should be no *n* there. Today I borrowed an old book from the library (Beginning Japanese by Eleanor Harz Jordenread published in 1963) which explains this phenomena that some native speakers pronounce "ga" like "nga" in certain positions.

Even though this book uses only romaji it gives very clear explanation about pronunciation and I don't know how using kanas or, God forbid, kanji would help in explaining better pronunciation. This books explained also my other pressing question (2) about palatalizion of "n" sound in certain positions. The only answer I got on this forum that Japanese don't make distinction so it doesn't matter. However this book clearly says that *n* is palatalized in *ni *which is different from *na, ne or nu. *I can understand that native speakers may not make difference but since we differenciate between *ņ *(palatalized n) and *n *(hard n) in my native language this knowledge makes difference how I try to mimic Japanese pronunciation.  

Karuna


----------



## gaer

karuna said:


> That goes without saying. However I tried learning Japanese from Pimsleur audio courses at first, without even looking at any writen material at all. I had two problems with pronunciation: (1) that sometimes I heard extra n in phrases like "_takusan suru koto *n*ga arimasu_". But it wasn't consistent so I wasn't sure if it is my hearing that is deficient or something else is there. When I inquired others they simply said that there should be no *n* there. Today I borrowed an old book from the library (Beginning Japanese by Eleanor Harz Jordenread published in 1963) which explains this phenomena that some native speakers pronounce "ga" like "nga" in certain positions.


There are variations in every language from place to place, and even what is labeled "standard" has variations. I'm sure this is true in your language, and you know it is true in English. I would only worry about _my_ pronunciation, meaning that I would trust someone Japanese to tell me whether or not something I said would be understood.

Unfortunately, "natives" usually can only tell you when something sounds right, but not why, and often they make sounds that they are not aware of making. 


> Even though this book uses only romaji it gives very clear explanation about pronunciation and I don't know how using kanas or, God forbid, kanji would help in explaining better pronunciation.


Well, to me, in English, I would explain it this way:

ら (ra/la) り (ri/li) る (ru/lu) れ (re/le) ろ (ro/lo)

I would explain that these kana are not really either "r" or "l" but something very different. The first time I heard りんご、I could not tell if I heard "ringo" or "lingo". I just knew that I heard a sound that does not exist in English or other European languages I have heard.

I personally think that many words are much clearer as to pronunciation in kana, not romaji, but of course kanji are not help at all for pronunciation!


> This books explained also my other pressing question (2) about palatalizion of "n" sound in certain positions. The only answer I got on this forum that Japanese don't make distinction so it doesn't matter. However this book clearly says that *n* is palatalized in *ni *which is different from *na, ne or nu. *I can understand that native speakers may not make difference but since we differenciate between *ņ *(palatalized n) and *n *(hard n) in my native language this knowledge makes difference how I try to mimic Japanese pronunciation.


We find such "tips" very helpful because we are learning to pronounce a new language as adults. I understand what you are saying. We have to "intepret" new sounds by adjusting sounds we know in our own, which is why we always speak new languages with an accent, I think.

Gaer


----------



## Flaminius

Karuna, every consonants after /i/ is palatalised.  This is pretty consistent across all Japanese varieties.  The palatalisation, however, takes place without natives' notice.  Well, they may be able to tell the difference after told what to look for but pronouncing /mi/ as [mi] and [mʲi] make no difference in the meaning of the utterance.


----------



## karuna

So, it is the same principle as in Russian then? It makes sense now. Although Russian also has a vowel /ы/ (hard i) before which palatalisation does not happen. My Russian friends often teach me to pronounce properly Russian shi, mi and ri (which are never palatalized in Latvian) but I always considered it unnecessary. Japanese palatalization seems to be weaker than Russian. 

I was surprised that the opening song in the Ghost in the Shell movie was partly in Russian. How does the Russian language sound to Japanese ear? Though it was not sung in typical Russian manner. However, that's what I really like about Japanese. Not so much their own authentic culture but how the different cultures of the world are reflected by them. They select the best things and show them in a new angle that I have never imagined it is possible to view. 

The same goes about Japanese pronunciation of loanwords. They sound cute, so why change the status quo? I like better the Japanese version of _aisukurīmu _than the English _icecream_.


----------



## Qcumber

Aoyama sensei, several month ago I attended a Kabuki performance in Paris, and this was an opportunity for an actor to be upgraded and take a new name. The play was in Japanese, of course, but surprisingly enough the new name ceremony after the play was in French, and some of these Japanese actors spoke it with practically no accent. It was extremely impressive.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

To avoid the situations described in Miranda Kendricks Gems of Japanized English, they probably should.


----------



## Flaminius

Hi Setwale,

Welcome to the Japanese forum. ^ ^

I am familiar with neither the author nor the book.  Could you illustrate what are the situations to be avoided?

Flam


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Arigato! O-jama shimasu.
Unfortunately, I haven`t got the book with me right at the moment. Try searching for the name on the Internet. You will enjoy it. Of course, I `m afraid you will have to be prepared to laugh at your own people.  
One famous pearl which is often quoted was about 'R" as in "London" and "L" as in Rome.  

However, I must say that a lot depends on the age when you start practising. Being a Japanese or Chinese speaker does not in itself prevent one from speaking clear English or French. I started my life in Japan and this was practically my first language. I chatted with equal ease in Japanese and English. And didn`t have accent in either. But we left for China very soon. I never used it since then and my Japanese is very poor. However, when I use this little I know, I speak without any accent, as native speakers say. The same goes for Chinese. So the articulation organs are perfectly adjusted to both.


----------



## gaer

Setwale_Charm said:


> However, I must say that a lot depends on the age when you start practising. Being a Japanese or Chinese speaker does not in itself prevent one from speaking clear English or French.


Learning as an adult also does not prevent someone from speaking a foreign language very clearly even though such a person will surely have an accent. But the accent does not have to be unpleasant, and it is often rather slight.

I believe in the long run correct sentence structure, vocabulary, etc. is more important than "speaking without an accent", since some people who live here, who obviously have an American accent, also sound very poorly educated when they speak or write. 

Gaer


----------



## Flaminius

A cursory Google search reveals that Kendrick's focus is English as spoken or written by Japanese (hint, hint, www.engrish.com further provides you with susurrous experiences).  They are just bad English and can be dealt with in English education.

I was going to argue whether the accurate pronunciation of a word beloning to Language A can be incorporated in utterances of Lanuage B or not largely depends on the phonological proximity of A and B.  I was further going to argue that Japanese phonology is quite different from that of English.  An average English speaker can easily mix in his English utterance "Madrid" or "Berlin" with the correct pronunciations in Spanish or German.  This, however, is not the case for "Tokyo."  Even as a native of Japanese, I 
find it difficult not to pronounce the two long O's there as diphthong [ou].  It takes a moment to change the positions of articulatory organs in the mouth before saying "Tōkyō" and another moment to change the positions
back to the English mode.

I was further going to illustrate my point by sharing my observations on bilingual announcements in Japan.  When Japanese transportation services provide announcements in Japanese and English, I noticed that even when the announcer is the same for both languages, place names are pronounced differently.  In the Japanese announcement, Japanese place names are uttered with a proper Japanese accent.  However, when she switches to English, the names get heavy English accent.  In other countries such as Thailand and Singapore, they never change accents for proper names.

I was going to conclude that Japanese phonology is so different from major European languages that incorporating their phonology is just as difficult as incorporating Japanese phonology into those languages.  However, as Setwale has turned out to be a bi-/trilingual with Japanese on her belt, I would like to ask her if switching between Japanese and English pronuciations is as difficult as I have just described.


----------



## sneeka2

I'm not Setwale, but since I speak German, English and Japanese (somewhat limited, but virtually accent free), I am going to say that I don't find it particularly hard to switch my pronunciation mid-sentence. Might be because I'm a native German and the Japanese pronunciation is much closer to German than to English. Then again, when I talk to some English friends and tell them "I live in Sapporo", with English and Japanese pronunciation mixed, I sometimes wonder if I should keep it all English for better understanding...


----------



## Outsider

Reading this and other threads, I get the impression that Japanese teachers of foreign languages often transcribe the foreign language into Japanese writing systems such as _kana_. If this is right, the suggestion that occurs to me is: why not teach the Japanese students to use the foreign writing system from the start? (And possibly use IPA in explanations of phonetics, when necessary, but as little as possible?)
Certainly, if I were to learn Russian, I would expect to learn and use the Cyrillic alphabet from the beginning, not the Latin alphabet!


----------



## Aoyama

Introducing new kana combinations seems hardly feasable.　
ヴァ、ヴィ,　ファ、フィ etc exist, which is already a welcomed improvement.
When it comes to Japanese mastering french, luckily enough, many Japanese do, otherwise, I'd have a hard time making a living ...


----------



## gaer

Flaminius said:


> An average English speaker can easily mix in his English utterance "Madrid" or "Berlin" with the correct pronunciations in Spanish or German.


This is not true! The average English speaker will not roll the "r" in "Madrid" and will probably not get quite the right vowel sound for the "i".

Berlin is always misprounounced by English speakers who do not know German. And I do mean always.

And you have chosen two words that are relatively easy in these languages.

In short, the better you know a language, the more you notice when it is pronounced incorrectly.


> This, however, is not the case for "Tokyo." Even as a native of Japanese, I find it difficult not to pronounce the two long O's there as diphthong [ou]. It takes a moment to change the positions of articulatory organs in the mouth before saying "Tōkyō" and another moment to change the positions back to the English mode.


But there is an additional problem. We see "Tokyo" most of the time, which is wrong. We start out with incorrect spelling. And とうきょう、toukyou, is misleading for just the reason you mentioned. It LOOKS like "ou". I agree entirely about the problems we have (English speakers) in pronouncing Japanese, if you ask people in Spain or German about how we English speakers pronounce their languages (if we learn them as adults), I believe you will find that we do not do very well. 

Gaer


----------



## Guinpenringqui

Hello, replying to a post of 10 years ago, but I don't think pronunciations are very important, especially for foreign speakers. People pronounce in his way, and it's absolutely fine. Yes, sometimes it can be funny for others, but the important thing is for native speakers to have better imagination and to be smart. That's much more practical than fix foreigner's pronunciations. For most of people languages are only tools to communicate, and definitely you can communicate each other with any strange accent.

You can consider Japanese-English are new Japanese words, like japanese oriented English words are new English words (Maki,Sashimi,Karaoke,Samurai,Geisha,Anime,etc.)

Anatoli-san, が(ga)ぎ(gi)ぐ(gu)げ(ge)ご(go) are pronunced as nasal (nga)(ngi)(ngu)(nge)(ngo) when it's NOT the first letter of the word. Except those;
1). onomatopoeic-mimetic word(Gara-gara, Gu-gu)
2). of the numeral five (15 Jugo, 550 Gohyakugoju)
3). with light prefix(ex. お元気ですか。Ogenkidesuka,不合格Fugoukaku)
4). some complex term (ex. 高等学校 KotoGakko, 窓ガラス MadoGarasu)

*日本大百科全書(ニッポニカ)の解説*
*ガ行鼻音*
*がぎょうびおん*
日本語のガ行の子音は、文節の頭では破裂音［g］で発音されるが、文節の内部では方言によってさまざまで、［g］のほかに鼻音の［
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





］、あるいは［g］の前に軽い鼻音が入る［
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




g］で発音される。この［
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




］で発音される文節内部のガ行音をガ行鼻音（またはガ行鼻濁音）といい、標準的な発音とされてきたが、現在東京その他の若年層ではしだいに［g］が増加する傾向にある。
　文節の内部といっても、複合の度合いの弱いものは鼻音化せず、東京語では次のようなものは鼻音化しない法則がある。(1)擬声・擬態語の類（ガラガラ、グーグー）、(2)数詞の五（ジューゴ、ゴヒャクゴジュー）、(3)軽い接頭辞のつくもの（オゲンキ、フゴーカク）、(4)後部の語頭がガ行音で、複合の度合いの弱いもの（コートーガッコー、マドガラス）など。［秋永一枝］

It is concerned as the "standard Japanese pronunciation" as it was common in Tokyo. Though, in Kansai(West Japan), since 19th century nasal pronunciation has been disappeared, and nowadays more and more people doesn't pronounce nasals in Tokyo. But elder people do, and it sounds more elegant for me. TV announcers are well educated to pronounce nasals, especially of NHK.


----------

