# Is the age a secret?



## Ilmo

I know that the age, gender and hometown are not compulsory data when registering to the Word Reference Forums. And certainly, there couldn't be any method of confirming them in case someone wanted to cheat. But I think that would be worthwhile information to the fellow members and might help us to treat each other's posts (and opinions) in a more proper way.
What do you other members think - shouldn't we at least recommend each one to delate his/her age, not only in his/her public profile but even in every post. Maybe a campaign to complete the profile data could be declared.
In fact, even the gender of many nicks remain unclear!
And, is there something to shame of about one's hometown or neigbourhood?
Of course, I myself am cheating a bit - my avatar is, actually, almost 75 years old!


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## Fernando

As stated some other occassions, gender and age are a property of the foreros.

Moreover, I can not speak the same to a girl, 20 year-old than a man 90 year old. when I post a question I expect not to be considered a man or woman or old or young but a Spanish-speaker.

Usually native language and location are very useful. I can not consider the same a newbie from Marseille than a 12,000-post English speaker from Maine, when speaking in English.

From time to time it is good to know the age, because language registers differs depending on age but why gender?


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## JazzByChas

Probably, because, as I have done, one finds one referring to someone as though they were one gender, when they are the opposite.  It does tend to "color" your answer, when you know the gender.

Just my thoughts...



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> From time to time it is good to know the age, because language registers differs depending on age but why gender?


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## Philippa

I like the fact that there is a gender category on the profile and I do like to know whether people are male or female - I think it's part of treating each other as real people with feelings rather than a series of typed messages.

I think it is also nice to see people's ages, but I do wonder why it is on the profile that comes up on every message - is it possible/desirable to put it just on the profile that you see when you click on the person? (Okay, so I haven't completely got used to being 34 yet  , but I'm sure getting used to your own age isn't the idea behind seeing it every time you look at one of your own posts!!) Maybe more people would put on their ages if it wasn't quite so visible?!!

Philippa


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## Rayines

*Hallo: I myself feel more at ease telling my age, -my gender is generally known by my name (in my signature)- because sometimes I'm prone to make some jokes, and I don't want to be figured out to be a younger person. (Maybe this seems a little pedantic, but it's the truth  ). That's why I also like to know other people's age, but of course I respect every personal decision. The other thing because of which I prefer to know it, is that this isn't an "automatic dictionary", but a forum made by people, -we have already discussed it somewhere else here- based on knowledges, experience, and communication. This means that many of us can be actually interested in knowing who we're adressing to. But with regard to me, I accept the rules, and thank those who in a way or another show a little more about themselves here.*


*Philippa: I knew you WOULD appear! .*

*A revival here*


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## fenixpollo

Rayines said:
			
		

> * -my gender is generally known by my name- *


 Actually, Inés, when I saw your name at first, I wasn't sure if you were Rey Inés or Raymundo or Raymond or Ray -- all boys -- or just plain Inesita.    Is it clear that I'm male because my username is _pollo_?  What if it were _polla_?  

93% of all communication is nonverbal; part of which is our prejudging people based on what we can guess about their gender, origin, race, class, shoe size, and a host of other seemingly meaningless bits of information. I can't see any of you, and I can only "hear" the literary tone of your words, so I have to invent the rest. At the very least, it's comforting to know your gender, age and origin. ¿no?

But, so many people want to protect their identities, for whatever reason. After 9 months, there are some foreros that I don't know their names or gender or anything, despite the fact that I communicate with them more frequently than I do with my parents.  C'mon, people! A little disclosure here!  

_edit: thanks for posting the link, Inés.  I guess my response should go in that thread.  I can see why some people don't want personal details shared (the mods, for example).  I also see the point of some people that gender doesn't matter to language as other factors.  Cheers!_


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## Roi Marphille

Hi 
I think like Rayines. 
But I understand that some people like to show some mistery, it's their choice. In my case, I'm an open book!   you know all from me!!! even my birthday...about my profession...well, it's a "_secreto a voces_" ja ja ja  (wide-known secret)


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## Laia

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> But, so many people want to protect their identities, for whatever reason. After 9 months, there are some foreros that I don't know their names or gender or anything, despite the fact that I communicate with them more frequently than I do with my parents.  C'mon, people! A little disclosure here!


 
haha  yes, Mike.

I quit my age of my profile recently because I had a paranoia-feeling that maybe someone could recognize me (yes, I know, paranoia...). After all, I registered with my own real name, so, yes, I'm Laia. I have a big mouth and sometimes I give more than necessary information about myself, but what can I do? I'm impulsive  .
But I'd like to enjoy my anonimity.

If someone wants to know my age, can send me a PM, after all!


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## Benjy

i like having my age on every post. i keep forgetting i'm 23. it's dead handy


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## cuchuflete

If people choose to argue about word meanings I may advocate or political postures I hold, they should feel free to say what their facts and their hearts suggest, regardless of my age.  I've frequently been addressed as a female --I'm not of that exalted persuasion--or as "young man" which is something I ceased to be a few decades ago.

If a forero is active, and wishes to drop crumbs of personal information in the threads, or blatantly state things in a personal profile, that's great.  If a forero prefers to stick to language, and keep the personal information private, that's great too!


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## Alundra

Well, I think that my profile isn't complete because of the guests to the forum...

All of you (I think so) know I am female and if I have kids in school age, I'm between.... 20 and 50?  more or less... 


Yes.. I don't care you know my gender or my age... but I don't like all the people that glance the page, see and know all about me...  

It is my "Why" 
Alundra.


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## Laia

Alundra said:
			
		

> Well, I think that my profile isn't complete because of the guests to the forum...


 
That's exactly my paranoia, that someone recognizes me, some guest.
I don't mind that others forer@s know things about me


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## Rayines

> Quote:
> Originalmente publicado por *Alundra*
> _Well, I think that my profile isn't complete because of the guests to the forum..._
> 
> 
> That's exactly my paranoia, that someone recognizes me, some guest.
> I don't mind that others forer@s know things about me


*Oh!, fortunately my neighbours don't know what a PC is....*


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## Alundra

Rayines said:
			
		

> *Oh!, fortunately my neighbours don't know what a PC is....*


 
Well, Inés... but I don't do it for my neighbours... not all the people in the world is a good person... I can guess what kind of person enjoy this forum in a regular way (and I value the most of them)... but I don't know who look at the forum in a sporadic way... and it doesn't like me...who knows what the guest are looking for....

I don't know if I explain it well...  

Sorry my english.. 
Alundra.


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## Laia

Bueno, yo no quería ir tan lejos, lo mío es más bien por timidez... y sobretodo por la libertad que da el anonimato, que te permite decir lo que piensas con menos presión social ¿no?


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## Rayines

*Gracias chicas, me han hecho pensar. Acabo de sacar mi dirección de mensajería instantánea de mi perfil. *


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## VenusEnvy

While I'm sure most people here know more about me than my little profile in the corner says, I prefer not to reveal my age. I fear that some people may judge me on it while saying, "What does she know? She's only xx.." Or, "How would she know about that? She's so old!" ja ja

I agree that this information shouldn't be mandatory. I feel the same way about those who reveal their gender. While I myself am terribly curious and would like to know everyone's gender, I don't see it as such an important factor. Afterall, we are a community of learners, no matter the age, gender or species. 


Just my $0.02.


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## Alundra

Rayines said:
			
		

> *Gracias chicas, me han hecho pensar. Acabo de sacar mi dirección de mensajería instantánea de mi perfil. *


 
Inés, esa es sólo mi forma de pensar.... por favor... no quisiera pegarte mis miedos, ejejee..  

Es que para mí Internet es un arma de doble filo....

Alundra.


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## GenJen54

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> While I'm sure most people here know more about me than my little profile in the corner says, I prefer not to reveal my age.


 
I agree with you, and I cannot tell you why.  I did have my age revealed at one point, and decided to remove it later on.  I guess for me it is simply not that important that everyone know my age.

Forer@s who have been around long enough to have read many of my posts know that I sprinkle tidbits of personal information in them from time to time, where my age has, if not been revealed, at least been hinted at.

Others know my age through PM and/or IM conversations. 

What's really funny is that I was chatting to a fellow forer@ via IM the other night, someone who is around here A LOT, but who rarely contributes, and this person thought I was MUCH younger than I actually am.  I wasn't sure if I was to be flattered or not....In the end, it just doesn't matter to me. 

For those who really want to know...my age is..,ue. hr. hv//xn.g  comp/..r  pro,,,lems...


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## DDT

I personally don't care about age.
Mine is clearly visible just because I entered the box asking for that when registering and since I don't care I won't remove that. But I am sure of 2 things:
1. What I appreciate in people I have exchanges with is their way of expressing their thoughts, in spite of the fact they may differ with mine. Their age has nothing to do with that
2. I discovered the age of some members so much time after talking with them and I have to say that it doesn't affect at all the possibility of having a nice exchange with any of them

DDT


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## judkinsc

I thought about it, decided it didn't really matter to me, and added it.  It's true, why not let my age be seen.


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## lauranazario

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I prefer not to reveal my age. I fear dislike that some people may judge me on it while saying, "What does she know? She's only xx.." Or, "How would she know about that? She's so old!" ja ja


My feelings exactly.

Would my contributions be treated equally if I said I was 27 --or over 72? I don't think so. 
Sadly, many people assign 'relevance' or 'weight' to other people's words in direct proportion to their age. 
I do not want any of that "baggage", so my age is whatever YOU want it to be. 

Saludos,
LN


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## nichec

DDT said:
			
		

> But I am sure of 2 things:





			
				DDT said:
			
		

> 1. What I appreciate in people I have exchanges with is their way of expressing their thoughts, in spite of the fact they may differ with mine. Their age has nothing to do with that
> 2. I discovered the age of some members so much time after talking with them and I have to say that it doesn't affect at all the possibility of having a nice exchange with any of them


 
I totally agree with this. I had my age shown in the beginning when I registered, but then I removed it some time later. I thought it's a nice thing to be able to get rid of your appearance, your age, your gender for some time during the day. It's my own opinion that when you're trying to think, which is what I believe we are doing most of the time here, it doesn't matter how old you are or which gender you belong to...after all, I think age or gender or looks has nothing to do with what's in your brain/mind.


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## ILT

Alundra said:
			
		

> Well, Inés... but I don't do it for my neighbours... not all the people in the world is a good person... I can guess what kind of person enjoy this forum in a regular way (and I value the most of them)... but I don't know who look at the forum in a sporadic way... and it doesn't like me...who knows what the guest are looking for....
> 
> I don't know if I explain it well...
> 
> Sorry my english..
> Alundra.



Well, maybe you feel you couldn't explain it, but I can relate to this because it is exactly the way I feel too   I've had very interesting and nice conversations with a lot of foreros, and I haven't met one who was disrespectful.  But when I registered, I tried really hard to get a gender-less nick because one can never know who is lurking around and for what purpose.  After all, I like my private information to remain private.

Some foreros think I'm a male, some think I'm a female, I'll bet some even think I'm somewhere in between  and it's fine by me, my language proficiency, my interest to learn, and the pleasure I get from helping are not influenced by my age or my gender.

I too had my age displayed some time ago, but I erased it.  Maybe someone will remember?


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## lsp

In May 2005, in a thread called "Does Gender of foreros matter?" I wrote this: _Even though I agree "this is a serious forum with serious people in it," at the time of this post there are 217 (27 members and 190 guests) online at WR. I have to vote for "voluntary" when it comes to any personal information._ And I still feel this way today, talking about age.

I've read lots of posts that start something like, "I've been hanging around here for months but this is the first time I'm posting...." What I might want to disclose to those of us who have been around for a while, or who post frequently and feel less like strangers, is one thing. But I am not anxious for the guests and the browsers and the one-off visitors to have the same access to anything personal.


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## blancalaw

I personally don't care if people know my age.  I think most people from age 20 - 80+ would have about the same maturity to answer a post properly.  But it is a good idea to have the age under profile and gender out front.  I rather know if someone is a male or female than their age.

I do like giving my birthday so I can make the “birthday list” on October 24.


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## GenJen54

lsp said:
			
		

> What I might want to disclose to those of us who have been around for a while, or who post frequently and feel less like strangers, is one thing. But I am not anxious for the guests and the browsers and the one-off visitors to have the same access to anything personal.


You brought up a very good point, lsp. We are used to seeing familiar names and familiar "faces" (avatars) in this happy little "community" that has been built here. It's kind of like our own linguistic neighborhood. What we don't notice are the guests who lurk and troll through our little neighborhood on a daily basis. Some may be friendly. Some may not be friendly. 

While these "guests" might not disturb our peace, they can still "peek through our windows," and I for one, don't wish to give them very much to peek at. 

Of course, they're always welcome to join us.


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## cubaMania

I look at it this simply:
Your native country and language are relevant in these forums for obvious reasons.  Your gender and age are not relevant (in most cases.)  Once in a while age will matter, but then it can be mentioned in that specific thread.  Since they are not relevant, to include age and gender just invites preconceptions and prejudices to come into play.  We have quite enough of those in our daily lives, so it can be nice to exclude them from interactions in the forums.


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## annettehola

I am 36 on April 16th.

I'm Annette, and as for my gender, peek ALL you like at my name. If you have any other questions, please do ask, I am not a person to draw invisible curtains. Curtains? That's a thing that makes my bedroom darker when I want to sleep fx. When dealing with people I aim at tearing curtains to pieces and throw them to all the winds there are. I cannot see you if you draw your curtain. To peek or not to peek? Why is that the question? I'd rather put it this way: To speak or not to speak. In a forum like this we can only see the words of one another. There is no other way of getting to know the people you are in contact with via the forums. That's alright, it can't possibly be any different. But something is missing if we speak about communities and neighborhoods: WHO are the inhabitants? In the case of the forums, they are: bodyless thoughts made real only via their display on-screen. Nothing more, nothing less. It's like reading a book you write yourself, and others' comments on it. Or the other way round. So it's an on-line community, it's an on-line neighborhood. For this reason people can choose between the possibilities it offers: total anonymity, medium so, or total openness. I opt for the last one. That's the one I go for, for that's the one that's closest to what I am as a person. If the people that write in and, so, make up the forums want a forum that is for all, that is democratic, that is a place where people can say what they want and feel, then that forum should also allow people to show who they are behind their words. It is not only a forum of words, a place for linguistic utterances, it is a forum for views and so, opinions, that is interesting. And it takes eyes to have a view. As it takes a body of flesh and blood to be a person that has opinions. If people want to hide how old they are and what their name is, well, then that's their business. I personally take another view myself, as I've said. 
I must react to this about "What we don't notice are the guests who lurk and troll through our little neighborhood on a daily basis. Some may be friendly. Some may not be friendly." I find it hard to understand what neighborhood the talk is about when all I see when I look at the other members is an absence of bodies. I read the written voices I speak with here. We know each other that way. That is to say: We know each other's words, not each other as persons of flesh and blood. 
Sure, someone may be friendly, another one may not. I for one, want friendliness. So in order to achieve this, I take the curtains off the windows and open the windows, so that I can see what's going on with the world and other people in it, and also so that those others can see me. I believe openness to be a characteristic of true friendliness. The same way I believe honesty to be a direct consequence of being open. I don't think an attitude that says "While  these "guests" might not disturb our peace, they can still "peek through our windows," and I for one, don't wish to give them very much to peek at" is very friendly.
The way to avoid unfriendliness is to my mind to be open and honest about what you think and are.

Annette


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## Benjy

that's funny. i have your address and telephone number now. doesn't that bother you that anyone with half a brain now has access to that information?


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## annettehola

No, it does not. I do not nurse fear. Therefore I am not bothered by anyone with half a brain.
Annette


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## Benjy

we have a policy on submitting personal data. and unfortunately to comply with the rules i'll have to edit yours out.


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## Whodunit

blancalaw said:
			
		

> I think most people from age 20 - 80+ would have about the same maturity to answer a post properly.


 
So, what about poor foreros that haven't turn 20 yet? 

Well, I don't like hiding everything in my profile, as some members around here do (which I respect, though). I also don't like, for myself, showing everything, even my address, telephone number and last name. So many people around here know my first name. In the meantime, I don't care about this anymore, whereas I didn't like people addressing me with my first name (yeah, it's Daniel, if other curious people want to know it ) some time ago. I'm used to it now and this is good.

Why do I reveal my age? It's not a secret that I am 16, almost 17. I like it when people think I am older by my posts (in German, of course ), however I don't like when people ask in a new post "Are you really only 16???" I, then, go to my PM box and write to those people personally. Some people think that I am not mature yet, because I'm so young; others say that I'm a genius, because I already have so much experience with language like persons at the age of 40 or 70 or whatever. Many, in turn, feel embarrassed and less don't respect my posts.

The only group of people I don't like is the last one. Fortunately, we don't have such people on WR.


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## panjandrum

In these days of identity theft and extensive spam-mailing (e-mail and snail-mail), it is prudent to exercise discretion.

Would anyone here volunteer to post their bank details (name and address of bank, numeric code, and account name and number)


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## Ilmo

panjandrum said:
			
		

> In these days of identity theft and extensive spam-mailing (e-mail and snail-mail), it is prudent to exercise discretion.
> 
> Would anyone here volunteer to post their bank details (name and address of bank, numeric code, and account name and number)


 
What has the age to do with identifying a person? Isn't this a bit exaggerating, though at the same time revealing?


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## annettehola

Please try to learn the difference between humour and personal data. Really, there is one.

As I was saying, in Denmark no one can post any opinion whatsoever in any newspaper whatsoever without submitting the following personal data at the same time: full name, phone number, full address. You can ask that this data is not published but your opinion will not be considered unless you submit it.
I support this practice because I like it. I like it because it makes you feel you are reading the words of a real person. Not just some anonymous voice cruzified to paper by some invisible hand from Nowhere. 
It is honest to show your face.

Annette


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## lsp

annettehola said:
			
		

> The way to avoid unfriendliness is to my mind to be open and honest about what you think and are.


As cubamania reminds us, it's a language forum. We discourage chat outside the Culture forum, which in my view would lead me to believe that, for the majority of WR, who we are "beyond our words," as you call it, is quite irrelevant. We have PMs for that. Reveal what you want to whom you want (and hope they have the good sense not to bring your personal information into the public forums if you haven't already done so, right, Daniel? ) Some people don't come here to make friends (and some never change their minds about that, even if they stay). Incidentally, there is no way to enforce that people would be honest about their ages, if it were a requirement. Not everyone even chooses to provide their location in "_cartographically_" revealing ways!

In my mind, the way to avoid unfriendliness is, simply, to interact in a friendly manner. No amount of visible personal data will turn a rude post into a sweet one.


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## Chaska Ñawi

panjandrum said:
			
		

> In these days of identity theft and extensive spam-mailing (e-mail and snail-mail), it is prudent to exercise discretion.



This is why I kept a low profile for a while.  In the end I decided that I'm at much greater risk of identity theft when I use plastic instead of cash.  I also think that I'm at greater physical risk from the parents of a couple of students than from any lurker who reads postings here.  Anybody could figure out my gender and approximate age and location from my postings anyway.


That said, does anyone remember the case of that pregnant woman who was murdered in the States a couple of years ago, and her baby stolen?  The woman who murdered her by C-section met her through a dog breeders' forum and set up a date to look at some puppies near the mother's due date.  I don't know whether she asked the mother about this, or whether the mother posted the info publicly.  I also don't know whether a "friendship" was established first.  It does demonstrate that we aren't as invulnerable as we like to think.

What a depressing note upon which to end a post!


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## Hakro

My first idea was that knowing other members age and gender is not important for criticizing their opinions but for addressing them in an appropriate way.

But Annettehola gave even better answer (#29). I agree 100%. That's why even my avatar is a photo of myself, so everyone can see that I have a grey beard and I like sailing.

Of course giving these informations is voluntary but it could be recommended.


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## panjandrum

annettehola said:
			
		

> [...] in Denmark no one can post any opinion whatsoever in any newspaper whatsoever without submitting the following personal data [...]


[I think this is a general requirement, not only in Denmark]  There is a huge difference between a newspaper requiring personal authentication for anything it may choose to publish and the publication of personal information on this forum - or any other medium.  

In "real life" it is considered honest to show your face - because your face is an important part of inter-personal communication. But it is also normal (for most people) not to show your entire body all the time We each excercise our own individual choice in that respect.

I find the general lack of normal social cues (age, sex, appearance, clothing, occupation and so on) on this forum fascinating. It means that I form opinions of each person entirely on the basis of what they say here, how they say it and how sensitive they are to others.


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## JazzByChas

As with any other enterprise, discretion is the better part of valor. I am sure no one in this forum would give out any personal information like real name, address, phone number and the like in a post or in their profile. _{EDIT: not to mention, the former would be against forum rules, as Benjy has said...}_

In these forums, there is always the chance that someone could decide to spam you, or "hack" into your personal information by reverse lookup on your email address or something akin to that. Now, I should add that just being on the internet opens you up to revealing a lot more about yourself than you might realize. I know that if you register your Windows (TM) operating system, "Uncle Bill" (Gates and company at Microsoft) will store that information, and use it any way they like. You do transactions online that involve using a credit card, and you risk opening yourself to credit card scam.

But to return to the original topic, I believe, in these forums, that _*age and gender*_ are really not that much of a divulgence of personal information. They are voluntarily given, of course, but they, as well as what you write, only reveal your "mindset" more than anything else. And if you write long enough, your age and gender tend to come out in your writings anyway. 

I myself, find that you can't always judge someone by their age (as far as character is concerned) but you mostly can determine the amount of maturity and perspective they have gained "by the passing of the years" as my mother always says. _"My momma told me..."_

_With apologies to Smokie Robinson..._


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## annettehola

No one is asking anybody to show their "entire body all the time." I was talking about being able to identify a person using other ways than just the words of that person. I can't see, in what consists the " huge difference" between a newspaper requiring personal data and a forum or, as you write, "any other medium" doing the same. Simply because I think people writing in this forum are doing the exact same thing as people who write to a newspaper: Airing their opinions. The only difference I can detect is that the newspaper is sold. 
Annette


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## lauranazario

Hmmmm.... this thread has become too full of personal views and side issues (identity theft, newspaper requirements, _et al_) to be of any tangible use within WR's Comments & Suggestions forum.

Therefore, I am transferring this thread to the Culture forum, where we can discuss and explore all ramifications of divulging vs. withholding personal information.

LN 
Moderator


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## GenJen54

annettehola said:
			
		

> As I was saying, in Denmark no one can post any opinion whatsoever in any newspaper whatsoever without submitting the following personal data at the same time: full name, phone number, full address. You can ask that this data is not published but your opinion will not be considered unless you submit it.


 Panj has already addressed part of what I want to say in his post, Number #40, above. This policy is a requirement in the US, as well. Letters to the editor are not to be submitted without name, age and at least a phone number. 

The forums are different.

Much to some forer@s dismay, these are not "'opinion" pages (Cultura here is an exception), they are forums to provide helpful commentary to invidiuals about specific questions. 





			
				annettehola said:
			
		

> So it's an on-line community, it's an on-line neighborhood. For this reason people can choose between the possibilities it offers: total anonymity, medium so, or total openness. I opt for the last one. That's the one I go for, for that's the one that's closest to what I am as a person. _*And you are entitled to that option. No one is trying to take it away from you. Other people do not feel that type of openness is necessary for them...at least in public. Privately, via PM or online chat, it may be another matter entirely.*_
> 
> ...If the people that write in and, so, make up the forums want a forum that is for all, that is democratic, that is a place where people can say what they want and feel, then that forum should also allow people to show who they are behind their words. *They do.  No one is disputing this.  Why bring it up?
> 
> *...I must react to this about "What we don't notice are the guests who lurk and troll through our little neighborhood on a daily basis. Some may be friendly. Some may not be friendly." I find it hard to understand what neighborhood the talk is about when all I see when I look at the other members is an absence of bodies. I read the written voices I speak with here. We know each other that way. That is to say: We know each other's words, not each other as persons of flesh and blood. _*Hello. Metaphor anyone? I was speaking specifically of the multitude of "guests" who join us each day and do not participate. We do not know who these people are. Many do not make their presence known. Some make their presence known in such a manner that is not welcome in the forums and their posts are zapped before (m)any have the chance to read them. Not everyone's intentions are good, sorry to say.
> 
> *_...So in order to achieve this, I take the curtains off the windows and open the windows, so that I can see what's going on with the world and other people in it, and also so that those others can see me. _*Great. Wonderful. Not everyone shares that opinion and they should not be put down or otherwise judged for disagreeing with you.
> 
> *_I believe openness to be a characteristic of true friendliness. The same way I believe honesty to be a direct consequence of being open. I don't think an attitude that says "While these "guests" might not disturb our peace, they can still "peek through our windows," and I for one, don't wish to give them very much to peek at" is very friendly._* Your opinion only.*_
> 
> The way to avoid unfriendliness is to my mind to be open and honest about what you think and are. _*Have you read any of my posts? In many ways I feel I am very much an open book, moreso sometimes than I think others wish me to be. There is such as thing as "TMI" - too much information. Perhaps you've heard of it. "Friendliness" and "spilling your entire life's story out for the entire world to see/hear/read" are two distinct things. I've been open - I just choose not to have my "stats sheet" out for everyone to see. Those who have been a careful reader of my posts know my gender (not a stretch), approximate age and a great deal more. **The absense of a little number in the upper right hand corner won't change that.*_


*

*


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## annettehola

Originally Posted by *annettehola*
_So it's an on-line community, it's an on-line neighborhood. For this reason people can choose between the possibilities it offers: total anonymity, medium so, or total openness. I opt for the last one. That's the one I go for, for that's the one that's closest to what I am as a person. *And you are entitled to that option. No one is trying to take it away from you. Other people do not feel that type of openness is necessary for them...at least in public. Privately, via PM or online chat, it may be another matter entirely. *_
_*I know full well I am entitled to my opinion. Everyone is, you too; fx.*_
_...If the people that write in and, so, make up the forums want a forum that is for all, that is democratic, that is a place where people can say what they want and feel, then that forum should also allow people to show who they are behind their words. *They do. No one is disputing this. Why bring it up? *_
_*This explanation might help: The subject is difficult. I wanted to distinguish between two things: 1) Words as a concrete thing in the world - in this case an on-line world, and 2) The people that are behind them. Sometimes it is almost impossible to distinguish between the two, and this, for me, is when I really love a piece of writing. Why? Because I can see the person behind the words. The words, in other words (sic!) have taken on the character of their own creator. The words are then, and for me again, more personal.*_

_...I must react to this about "What we don't notice are the guests who lurk and troll through our little neighborhood on a daily basis. Some may be friendly. Some may not be friendly." I find it hard to understand what neighborhood the talk is about when all I see when I look at the other members is an absence of bodies. I read the written voices I speak with here. We know each other that way. That is to say: We know each other's words, not each other as persons of flesh and blood. *Hello. Metaphor anyone? I was speaking specifically of the multitude of "guests" who join us each day and do not participate. We do not know who these people are. Many do not make their presence known. Some make their presence known in such a manner that is not welcome in the forums and their posts are zapped before (m)any have the chance to read them. Not everyone's intentions are good, sorry to say.*_
_*Hello to you; too. I hope you are well. Yes; it was a metaphor, you might call it if you like, on my part in order to say very much the same as I have just explained.*_

_...So in order to achieve this, I take the curtains off the windows and open the windows, so that I can see what's going on with the world and other people in it, and also so that those others can see me. *Great. Wonderful. Not everyone shares that opinion and they should not be put down or otherwise judged for disagreeing with you. *_
*Sorry, could you explain who is putting anybody down? I don't follow your argumentation here.*


_I believe openness to be a characteristic of true friendliness. The same way I believe honesty to be a direct consequence of being open. I don't think an attitude that says "While these "guests" might not disturb our peace, they can still "peek through our windows," and I for one, don't wish to give them very much to peek at" is very friendly.* Your opinion only.*_
_Sure?_
_The way to avoid unfriendliness is to my mind to be open and honest about what you think and are. *Have you read any of my posts? In many ways I feel I am very much an open book, moreso sometimes than I think others wish me to be. There is such as thing as "TMI" - too much information. Perhaps you've heard of it. "Friendliness" and "spilling your entire life's story out for the entire world to see/hear/read" are two distinct things. I've been open - I just choose not to have my "stats sheet" out for everyone to see. Those who have been a careful reader of my posts know my gender (not a stretch), approximate age and a great deal more. **The absense of a little number in the upper right hand corner won't change that.* _
_Yes, as you know, I have read your posts. No, I have never heard of "TMI" before. Is that an American concept? _


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## cuchuflete

We seem to have at least four groups...

1) The many readers who have not stated an opinion...I wonder what they think, and if they have a commonality of 
age and/or sex and/or nationality????   I will never know.

2) Those who prefer to concentrate on the ideas and knowledge expressed, without the distraction of any details about the person contributing these. There is a school of literary criticism that likes to focus on a close reading of texts, without external context.

3)Those who, like me, appreciate seeing a little bit of personal detail, but respect the absolute right of any forero not to volunteer it if, for whatever reason, they prefer to withhold it.

4) People who are curious, and would like to know more about the identity of the author of each post. I find no fault with this, so long as a desire doesn't turn into an imposed standard.

Here's the real problem with showing age, sex, or any other personal fact: It may be a total fabrication! For example, I could, in minutes, create a new e-mail account, and register as a new "username". I might identify myself as female (I am not.), under the age of 50 (I am not.), native speaker of
Spanish (I am not.), and resident of Bolivia. (I've never been there.) Then I could post as Maricarmen, age 26, with a personal profile pointing to my enthusiasm for race cars (in which I have no interest...) and improving my English through new 'friendships'! (Hah! What a way to reduce one's vocabulary to a bare minimum.) I might also post a picture of
someone else, in keeping with the rest of the fabricated biography. (It would NOT show my moustaches, ponytail, or the hair on my chest.)

Our software cannot detect or manage such falsehoods. I suppose we have more than a handful of less than honest profiles. So I suggest we post as much or as little about ourselves as we please, and just hope that what we read about others is accurate.

Now that you have read this far, I'll confess to being from Jalapa, Veracruz, age 69, born in Scotland, but resident in México since the age of 9. My gender is nobody's business but that of my mate(s) (gender unstated), and I hate daylilies and support the PRI and think democracy should be banned after we reconquer the US.


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## Vanda

My turn. 
Quoting Cuchu


> 3)Those who, like me, appreciate seeing a little bit of personal detail, but respect the absolute right of any forero not to volunteer it if, for whatever reason, they prefer to withhold it.


 
I belong to the category above and I don't mind showing my age. I like to give faces and voices to the persons, if possible, but I respect those who don't want to.
BTW, I'll start looking for a Maricarmen, cause I'm sure Cuchu is hidden himself behind her.


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## Hakro

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> We seem to have at least four groups...



Should we vote?


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## Phryne

I personally belong to group three 





			
				cuchu said:
			
		

> 3)Those who, like me, appreciate seeing a little bit of personal detail, but respect the absolute right of any forero not to volunteer it if, for whatever reason, they prefer to withhold it.


 I like to know about the people I interact with, although on the other hand, I don't necessarily find age or gender relevant. For some reason, society gives gender and age an important value (see Whodunnit’s message). What makes me be interested in people is to know those little characteristics that they expose about themselves: their moods, sense of humor, kindness... 

In many instances, I have no problem in giving my personal info. As a matter of fact I mailed stuff to two forerors that I have high esteem for, and I included in the return address my real name and address. I am aware that things happen; however, I refuse to become paranoid enough to believe that a site like this one is a real threat to me . JazzbyChas put it very nicely: we encounter much more dangerous situations every day that may end up in identity theft and other identity disclosure than making one's age and gender public (I strongly feel that modern society is getting people more paranoid that necessary, but that’s another story).

On a final note, sooner than later I am going to delete my age because I'm thrilled about the big 3. But that's a completely different issue. 

Saludos


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## Valmar

> Now that you have read this far, I'll confess to being from Jalapa, Veracruz, age 69, born in Scotland, but resident in México since the age of 9. My gender is nobody's business but that of my mate(s) (gender unstated), and I hate daylilies and support the PRI and think democracy should be banned after we reconquer the US.


 
Did you hear that? That was the sound of me falling of my chair laughing, causing neigbors downstairs to wonder what on earth is wrong with me.



> 3)Those who, like me, appreciate seeing a little bit of personal detail, but respect the absolute right of any forero not to volunteer it if, for whatever reason, they prefer to withhold it.
> 
> 4) People who are curious, and would like to know more about the identity of the author of each post. I find no fault with this, so long as a desire doesn't turn into an imposed standard.


 
I belong in groups number 3 and 4. I like knowing a few personal detail about other forer@s, since it adds a little bit of context to the information they provide. However, even when I have had my questions answered by someone who did not volunteer personal information, I have not asked that person to reveal these data. Why? Well, if they chose not to tell me, they are probably not interested in me knowing!

Just becase I chose to make my age known to everyone does not mean I am entitled to knowing other forer@s' age. 

If some day there appeared a post written by someone who did not disclose their age or gender and I thought that information was vital for me to fully value and understand such a response, there's always PM. Using this tool I can ask age, gender, level of education, annual income, presence or absence of facial hair, personal hygiene habits or whatever detail I believe necessary. 

I believe most people do not like to discuss their personal hygiene habits, though. I wonder why...


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## Mei

Laia said:
			
		

> haha  yes, Mike.
> 
> I quit my age of my profile recently because I had a paranoia-feeling that maybe someone could recognize me (yes, I know, paranoia...). After all, I registered with my own real name, so, yes, I'm Laia. I have a big mouth and sometimes I give more than necessary information about myself, but what can I do? I'm impulsive  .
> But I'd like to enjoy my anonimity.
> 
> If someone wants to know my age, can send me a PM, after all!


 
Wow, you all make me think and I had a paranoia too!!  

Mei


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## Laia

Mei said:
			
		

> Wow, you all make me think and I had a paranoia too!!
> 
> Mei


 
You all, but you quoted just me!! 

Laia


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## whatonearth

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> 2) Those who prefer to concentrate on the ideas and knowledge expressed, without the distraction of any details about the person contributing these. There is a school of literary criticism that likes to focus on a close reading of texts, without external context.


 
I'd say I'm in group 2. This is not to say I am not curious to know a little more about the people and regulars on this forum, but I think that if _some_ personal details become known this may taint peoples level of respect for members answers...I am not saying anyone is _prejudice_ per say, it just that subconsciously one may respect an elder members answer above a more junior member, even if the junior member is correct, things like that...I'm not sure if it would ever happen but I don't think that surrendering personal information should be a prerequisite. As for me, I am somewhat paranoid (as other members have mentioned previously!  ) about giving personal details on the internet generally, which is why I have not given much away in my details...however, I think most of the time you can begin to learn about people through their posts, and I think the male/female thing is one of the most obvious examples of this!  Interesting topic though!


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## geve

Gentlemen, don't you know it's rude to question a woman about her age ?  

At first, I didn't put my age, because I didn't know I would be around that long and that much.
A few months and a few hundreds posts later, I thought I might as well put it. But I decided to wait for a while, because my birthday was coming and you would have thought I only entered the date to have it celebrated in the Congrats !
Now that I'm a year older, I'm not sure anymore I want to display it... _(you grow up, you change + "souvent femme varie"... or is it because I can't bear this additional year ?  )_

I don't really mind people knowing my age (and people who read me often should be able to make a close guess about it... or not ?*), but like others said previously, I'm not sure I want it displayed on top of every post I make.

Of course in real life your face is immediately visible to any stranger out there. But your thoughts aren't - not at first. Here it's the contrary : one can know a lot about your personality and thoughts without even having registered here - without you noticing. Some of us might want to maintain a certain mystery... 
There are forer@s for whom I still wonder whether they're 30 or 60... Of course I'm curious, and I hope I'll have the answer one day, but it does add some spiciness ! It doesn't mean I'm not happy to know. But I also don't mind - or even, find it nice - to eventually find out in a thread where it has some relevance. And in the end, it's normal that people who "meet" more regularly, know more about each other.


* My PM box is open for bets.


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## timpeac

I think that these personal details should remain optional. That said, I would strongly suggest that people _at least_ reveal their nationality. It has come up again and again that there is a profound difference between British and American English. Actually I say profound, but in fact the problem is in the fact that the two varieties are very similar, but when they do diverge it can have one speaker amazed that the other says some other phrase. It saves an awful lot of time if we know what variety of language our correspondent speaks.

Over and above that sex and age are less vital. However, I prefer it when they are given (completely respecting when people chose not to). I think this is because I don't fully agree with the apparently unassailable argument that people should not be judged by sex or gender. Why not? Our age and sex affects everything we do day in day out in the non-virtual world and is bound to have an effect on how we express ourselves and how we react to others.

To give one very small example, I would tend to be a little bit less abrupt with someone older who said something stupid than with someone younger. Why? Surely everyone should receive the same amount of respect? Well yes they should. The difference is in how comments may be interpreted. Teenagers are constantly play-fighting, insulting and joking with each other. As people get older they become more mature, yes more sophisticated in the humour, and feel less need to vie and compete and swear. Come on - it's true. A group of young people and you may well hear swearing - true - a group of old people, well perhaps but not often. So if I'm more abrupt it's because I know I can be without causing offence, not through a lack of respect.

My comments are not to judge either group just to say that there _are_ differences. Men and women express themselves differently too. Anyway, in very small ways we all modify our behaviour in the real world to our audience and I don't see this as a bad thing in the virtual world either.

There is no point in pretending that basically there is no difference between us saying that the internet is the perfect opportunity to leave it all behind, because there is a difference. Differences between men and woman, young and old, Christian and Jew, black and white, gay and straight, trainspotter and golfer. So should that mean we should virtually give a DNA sample so that we know exactly who we are dealing with? Of course not - but I see no problem in giving the information which seems to differentiate us most - which I would say is sex and age (after nationality, which I would say is necessary in a language forum).

Edit - I remember someone asking a rather silly question, and answering it - certainly not in a hurtful or nasty way but admittedly slightly sarcastic. I got a PM asking me if I knew the person asking was 8. Well, of course I didn't, and I felt bad. But the way I had answered would have been _fine_ for anyone aged 10 to 1000 but perhaps harsh to an 8 year old. Well I have no intention of assuming I am speaking to 8 year olds from now on just for fear they may be...


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## fenixpollo

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> 3)Those who, like me, appreciate seeing a little bit of personal detail, but respect the absolute right of any forero not to volunteer it if, for whatever reason, they prefer to withhold it.


 I had no idea, cuchu.  How do you define "a little bit" of personal information?  Our horticultural hobbies or our age or our marital status?  How much is too much?  Just what constitutes "personal" information?  If a guest somehow figures out whether our meximodera is _una rana macho_ o _una rana hembra_, or whether our Argentine lab cat is _gato_ or _gata_, how could that be used against them?


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## panjandrum

annettehola said:
			
		

> No one is asking anybody to show their "entire body all the time." I was talking about being able to identify a person using other ways than just the words of that person.


You miss my point. You said that "It is honest to show your face."
I agreed with you. It is inappropriate in normal person-to-person communication in my culture to hide your face.

There is no direct, reliable equivalent in this medium other than the words you see on the screen. As I suggested, I can read much into those words, the way they are used and the way they reflect understanding of the perspectives presented by others.

My gentle, but perhaps too subtly expressed, point is that we exercise choice in how much of ourselves we present physically in person-to-person communication. It seems entirely appropriate that we should exercise the equivalent choice on these forums.



			
				annettehola said:
			
		

> I can't see, in what consists the " huge difference" between a newspaper requiring personal data and a forum or, as you write, "any other medium" doing the same. Simply because I think people writing in this forum are doing the exact same thing as people who write to a newspaper: Airing their opinions. The only difference I can detect is that the newspaper is sold.


Let me explain very carefully the logical difference.
First let me restate what I said in my post, which you have misquoted.


			
				Panj said:
			
		

> There is a huge difference between a newspaper requiring personal authentication for anything it may choose to publish and the publication of personal information on this forum - or any other medium.


The newspaper requires, but does not insist on publishing, my personal information. That has nothing whatever to do with the publication of personal information on this forum. There is a huge logical gulf between those two ideas. The first has no relevance whatever to a discussion on the publication of personal information on this forum or elsewhere.


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## Brioche

JazzByChas said:
			
		

> Probably, because, as I have done, one finds one referring to someone as though they were one gender, when they are the opposite. It does tend to "color" your answer, when you know the gender.
> 
> Just my thoughts...


 
I am so hopelessly old-fashioned that I still believe that people have _sex_, and that nouns in some languages have _gender_.

On forms that ask for my "gender", I cross it out and write "sex".


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## cubaMania

Brioche said:
			
		

> I am so hopelessly old-fashioned that I still believe that people have _sex_, and that nouns in some languages have _gender_.
> 
> On forms that ask for my "gender", I cross it out and write "sex".


Brioche, this is probably not a mistake due to ignorance of the rules.  There is a conscious movement to change the traditional use of these words.  Many people think it makes sense to change the rules and apply "gender" to people instead of "sex."  (I agree with that, so maybe from now on I will cross out "sex" on forms and write "gender." )


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## lsp

annettehola, I have a serious question to ask about your position. You feel that withholding gender and age in a language forum prevents open, honest communication, yet you have no issue with _usernames_ which almost always mask - in addition to age and gender - another truth about ourselves, our own names. timpeac made an excellent point about the other differences that shape us, like race and religion, sexual orientation and profession. I know in my own case, there are a few things on that short list that influence my posts more than my chronological age.


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## Ilmo

I feel a bit proud of starting so long a thread - but at the same time I'm also astonished and confused over that so few of the discussants have read the starter post or, in other case, so many have misunderstood it totally.
I did not suggest that the information mentioned should be made compulsory. That would be senseless because there is no way - nor any reason - to check the data given. I only suggested that folks should be recommended to disclose those three things - age, gender, hometown - besides of nationality and mother tongue.

*timpeac* wrote:
"I think that these personal details should remain optional. That said, I would strongly suggest that people _at least_ reveal their nationality. It has come up again and again that there is a profound difference between British and American English. Actually I say profound, but in fact the problem is in the fact that the two varieties are very similar, but when they do diverge it can have one speaker amazed that the other says some other phrase. It saves an awful lot of time if we know what variety of language our correspondent speaks."

I, too, think that these personal details should remain optional. But I strongly support his/her (!) view as to disclosing the nationality.
There is at least one good reason to know the other discussants age. We are here, on this forum, mostly in order to learn better another language. Now, there are great differences in the language spoken between different age groups. As an extreme example, I would rather adhere to the advices of an Oxford professor than a Soho youngster (I hope I've not used any defamatory terms).

Besides, why don't we take it with a snip of humor!


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## ILT

phoenixchicken said:
			
		

> I had no idea, cuchu.  How do you define "a little bit" of personal information?  Our horticultural hobbies or our age or our marital status?  How much is too much?  Just what constitutes "personal" information?  If a guest somehow figures out whether our meximodera is _una rana macho_ o _una rana hembra_, or whether our Argentine lab cat is _gato_ or _gata_, *how could that be used against them?*


Did I hear my name?   

Well, it may be in part because of the paranoia of not knowing who is on the other side of the computer.  I've been hit on more than once, by members of my own sex and by members of the opposite sex, so at first I was very cautious with the information I provided when registering.  After a little while I was ready to disclose more information about myself, but then I liked the mistery.  In fact I even choose my wording as carefully as I can so as not to disclose my sex   .  Some forer@s address me as male, some do as female.  I have no problem with either.  What I like is that I am helped and I can help disregarding my sexual preferences.


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## Alundra

I would like to say two things:

-Like Cuchu (sorry, Carmencita  )  has said above (and I'm totally agree) ... you can lie in your profile... Honesty isn't synonym of complete profile (for me)... 

-A complete profile isn't synonym of a friendly person... and an empty profile isn't synonym of a unpleasant person...

You can have a profille full of things... (sex, age, and so on..) and to be an unpleasant guy... (besides of lies...)
And you can have an empty profille and to be the most open and friendly of the human beings

IMHO, it hasn't nothing to do... 

Well, I give my personal information by PM when I think that I must give it.

Sorry, I know that all the people is not bad people... (but all the people is not good people on the net) and that the age, and the gender is not too information... but I prefer don't have this information to the sight... All of you that read my posts know me a little bit more... and more and more.. 

Of course, I would like to show all my data in the profile, and to see the yours, it would be wonderful!!! but I don't want that anyone see who I am(he might use it in bad way), and I can understand if you don't want to show the yours...

And I was going to say only two things...   

Alundra.


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## Dandee

Pienso que no es necesario más datos que el estar seguro de que hay alguien interesado en comunicarse y tratar temas de interés común.
El saber o intentar adivinar las veradera edad, sexo, religión, etc. de los demás solo alienta los prejuicios. Una opinión, una idea, una verdad que se quiera decir no cambia según como sea el que tengamos frente a nosotros. Pero el ser humano es un animal muuuuuuuuy curioso y le es casi imprescindible sabe más de lo necesario, es como que le hicera falta aquello que en realidad no necesita.
Creo que si un forero cree necesario dar a conocer ciertos datos de su identidad para hacer más fructífera la comunicación, pasa por su criterio hacerlo.

Saludos

Dandee.


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## annettehola

What is it you want to know, lsp? The difference between a name and a socalled "username"? I don't understand what your "serious question about my position" is about. Tell me. In post #29 I said what I meant. I always do. There I also stated what I feel about people that want to withhold personal information: That it's their choice. And surely OK and surely to be respected. My name is Annette. My username is Annettehola. The suffix changes nothing to who Annette is. My post was an expression of my opinion. Which I am the one behind. I let you see who I am through my writings. This is my point.
Looking forward to hear from..YOU!
Annette


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## diegodbs

Yo creo que los datos básicos que debería dar una persona son:

- País-Idioma nativo, para poder saber qué variedad de español o inglés te está aconsejando que utilices, cuando se hace una consulta sobre significado de palabras más coloquiales.

- Sexo, para poder hacer referencia a esa persona utilizando "él" o "ella".


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## JazzByChas

As to telling falsehoods in your profile, this is always possible...but even there, you are revealing a fault in your character.  As I said above, your writings reveal a lot about your character and who you are.  Sooner or later we would figure out that your are not the gender or age you indicate.  But, I suppose the old addage applies here: "You can't tell a book by it's cover..."


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