# [ʒ] in Italian dialects/substandard



## Riverplatense

I sometimes have the impression that secondary [ʃ] (in words like _pace_, _fece _etc.) has a voiced allophone. I think it wouldn't be this surprising, as it would represent an analogy to [s z] (which, however, doesn't go for most southern dialects, but does for Tuscan and Romanesco). Interestingly, [ʧ] → [ʃ] doesn't affect the phonological system, because this secondary [ʃ] is not geminated, while original intervocalic [ʃ] is. If my impression is true and also goes for Tuscan, then distinctions like _di cielo_/_di gelo_ would be possibly dropped.

Is there this [ʒ]?


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## bearded

Riverplatense said:


> Is there this [ʒ]?


Hello Riverplatense
I would say that normally there is not such a sound replacing the intervocalic c>sc - to my knowledge.  An exception is the number 200 if pronounced _alla toscana_ (dugento), where g stands exactly for that voiced allophone. Please note that the usual intervocalic central-Italy sc re-appears in 300 (''trescento'') and subsequent nos.  I do not think that _di cielo _and _di gelo _will ever merge or be confused.


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## Riverplatense

Hello bearded,



bearded said:


> the usual intervocalic central-Italy sc re-appears in 300 (''trescento'')



Thank you! I also wondered about this. But isn't the core of this pronunciation already in standard [treˈʧɛnto] (*[treˈʧːɛnto]). I mean, words with TRES → _tre_- could also undergo phonosyntactic gemination, and there are words like _Tressette _or (?)  _Treccani_.


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## Riverplatense

Riverplatense said:


> But isn't the core of this pronunciation already in standard [treˈʧɛnto] (*[treˈʧːɛnto]). I mean, words with TRES → _tre_- could also undergo phonosyntactic gemination, and there are words like _Tressette _or (?) _Treccani_.



Oh, of course, that's not true, it's already Latin TRECENTI.


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## bearded

Riverplatense said:


> Oh, of course, that's not true, it's already Latin TRECENTI.


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## Nino83

Riverplatense said:


> But isn't the core of this pronunciation already in standard [treˈʧɛnto] (*[treˈʧːɛnto])


I pronounce it [treˈʧːɛnto], like in _tressette_ and _treccani_.
Here it is considered _tollerata_ (tolerated, allowed).


Riverplatense said:


> I sometimes have the impression that secondary [ʃ] (in words like _pace_, _fece _etc.) has a voiced allophone.


Could you link some example? I've never heard this pronunciation until now.


Riverplatense said:


> If my impression is true and also goes for Tuscan, then distinctions like _di cielo_/_di gelo_ would be possibly dropped.


The sonorization *at the beginning of a word* hasn't happened in any Western Romance language, as far as I know (which are the most prone to intervocalic sonorizations and lenitions), *neither in intervocalic position*. In Portuguese, for example, there's a clear difference between _de certo_ [dɯ̽'sɛɾtu] and _deserto_ [dɯ̽'zɛɾtu]. It would be very strange if it happened in any Italo-Romance language.


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## Riverplatense

Nino83 said:


> Could you link some example? I've never heard this pronunciation until now.



Maybe I have misheard it  I had this impression sometimes with Romans and Tuscans. In corpora, however, I didn't find such a kind of pronunciation, but I might have done in music. Here are two (alleged) examples (_traducilo_, _voci_).



Nino83 said:


> The sonorization *at the beginning of a word* hasn't happened in any Western Romance language, as far as I know (which are the most prone to intervocalic sonorizations and lenitions), *neither in intervocalic position*. In Portuguese, for example, there's a clear difference between _de certo_ [dɯ̽'sɛɾtu] and _deserto_ [dɯ̽'zɛɾtu]. It would be very strange if it happened in any Italo-Romance language.



Yes, I might have lost sight of the fact that de-affricativization and voicing don't follow the same rules. However, there are examples of initial sonorizations in Non-Western languages like Sardinian: _terra _→ _sa derra_, and also in Calabrian: _fuoco → u vuoco_.


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## Nino83

Riverplatense said:


> Here are two (alleged) examples (_traducilo_, _voci_).


Interesting! 
In the first song I hear "so' sicuro che la tua vita è appesa a un filo e io c'ho le forbi[ʒ]i" (1'32") but he says "pia*c*i, ba*c*i" (1'50")
In the second song I hear "so centomila vo[ʒ]i che hai fatto nammorà" but "làssa*c*e cantà" "da sta vo*c*e nasce un coro" (57") "core de sta *c*ittà" (32").

It seems it is similar to the partial vocalization of intervocalic /p, t, k/ in _hai capito_ [ai g̥a'b̥id̥o], i.e sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.
In "core de sta città" the first "c" of _città_ is not voiced neither at 32" nor at the end of the song.

Anyway it would not lead to any merger because in Romanesco (like in other central and southern accents) /ʤ/ is always long, like in _la giacca_ [laʤ'ʤakka] (_a giacca_ [aʤ'ʤakka] in Romanesco).
Like in "unico grande amore de tanta e tanta [ʤʤ]ente che fai sospirà" (40") in the song of Venditti.


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## Riverplatense

Nino83 said:


> In the first song I hear "so' sicuro che la tua vita è appesa a un filo e io c'ho le forbi[ʒ]i" (1'32") but he says "pia*c*i, ba*c*i" (1'50")



Yes, I also hear it like this, and as you say it, it also reminds me of these shifts of /b d g/.



Nino83 said:


> Anyway it would not lead to any merger because in Romanesco (like in other central and southern accents) /ʤ/ is always long, like in _la giacca_ [laʤ'ʤakka] (_a giacca_ [aʤ'ʤakka] in Romanesco).



Wouldn't it be [la'ʒakka] in Florentine? But, of course, the examples we talked about are Romanesco.


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## Nino83

Riverplatense said:


> Wouldn't it be [la'ʒakka] in Florentine?


Yes, but Tuscan and Central Italian are different varieties.
The "gorgia" is peculiar of Tuscany. And Tuscan doesn't have the lengthening of intervocalic /b, ʤ/ and the assimilation of /nd/ (which Romanesco shares with _dialetti mediani, meridionali and meridionali estremi_).
A: _Hai capito? Ho perso la giacca._
B: _Quando?_
Tuscan: [ai xa'ɸiːθo ɔp'pɛrso la'ʒakka] ['kwando]
Romanesco: [ai g̥a'b̥iːd̥o ɔp'pɛrso aʤ'ʤakka] ['kwanno]

The two features are not present simultaneously in the speech of the same speaker.


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## Riverplatense

Nino83 said:


> Yes, but Tuscan and Central Italian are different varieties.
> The "gorgia" is peculiar of Tuscany. And Tuscan doesn't have the lengthening of intervocalic /b, ʤ/ and the assimilation of /nd/ (which Romanesco shares with _dialetti mediani, meridionali and meridionali estremi_).



Yes, of course. The «gorgia» is something quite unique, and the distribution of geminates is particularly «etymological» in Tuscan (even if still there are a lot of parallels between Tuscan and Romanesco, I think). I just referred repeatedly to Tuscan because of its [ʤ] → [ʒ], with the minimal pair _di cielo_/_di gelo_, which (now I know: very unlikely) could merge to [di'ʒɛlo].


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## Nino83

Yes, because Tuscan has not the (partial) voicing of intervocalic stops (and other consonants), which is a peculiarity of the Central dialects (north of the Roma-Ancona isogloss but south and east of Tuscany).


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## merquiades

[ʒ] exists in Corsican and seems rather common.  It is written sgi, sge:  Sgiocco (silly), ghjesgia (church), fasgiulinu (green bean), camisgia (shirt), basgiu (kiss), misgiu (cat), grisgiu (gray)......


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## Olaszinhok

merquiades said:


> [ʒ]



"][ʒ][ This sound is very common in Tuscan and in most Central Italian dialects, in mine as well.


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## Nino83

Olaszinhok said:


> [ʒ][ This sound is very common in Tuscan and in most Central Italian dialects, in mine as well.


In words like _voce, pace_?


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## Olaszinhok

Nino83 said:


> In words like _voce, pace_?



I beg your pardon, I've answered without reading all the thread properly. In Tuscan the phoneme [ʒ] is used as mentioned in post 11.


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