# Feudal Titles



## Han86

Hello (in Turkish),

There are feudal titles of Turkish origin that are still used in some Arab countries. I'd like to know how they sound in Turkish.

1._ *Baih / bayk / baak*_

Example: Kamal baih, or Kamal bayk

2. _*Paasha / Paash *_

Example: Mustafa Paasha

3.* Haanem / khaanom*

This is used for females, Example: Madeeha Haanem

4. _*Afandem / Afandee*_

Example: Mahmud afandee


There are also other words like : _*ara*_ (the r is French)


Thanks in Turkish,


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## kardorion

Merhaba (Hello) 

I'm going to try and do my best here but it is a bit difficult. 

1. It's written BEY, it's pronounced exactly like the word "bay" in english. It means MR.

2. It's written PAŞA and it's pronounced with stressed and stong A's. Such as in m*A*rble or c*A*r (in British english), and the letter ş is as you know pronounced like "sh" in "*sh*out". It's a high rank in military like a general or admiral.

3. It's written HANIM. (or in minuscules hanım - the letter "*ı*" does not have a dot on it - which would be like the sound when you say "spasm" between the last "s" and "m". So it would maybe more or less sound like "hanoum" (once again a is stong like in paşa). It means lady or Ms/Miss/Mrs., depending on how it's used.

4. It's written EFENDİ (or in minuscules efendi - the letter "*i*" has a dot on it. Both "e"s are pronounced as in the word "telephone" so you can read it as you write it.  It means something like sir (not the real title "sir" of course), and also it can mean "master".

Your said: "There are also other words like : _*ara*_ (the r is French)"

In Turkish we don't have a sound like the French "r", so I really didn't understand what you meant. But the word "aramak" (infinitive form) means "to search, to look for; to call on the phone". And the root of the word is "ara-". 

Also you can check out www.seslisozluk.com, an online turkish-english dictionary and if you sign in (it's all in english so you won't have a problem), you can listen to the pronounciation of the words too. It's not perfect but it gives you an idea. 

Teşekkürler (Thanks in Turkish) - Birşey değil (Your welcome in Turkish)


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## modus.irrealis

I think for _ara_, the Turkish source is _ağa _-- in Greek as well, _ğ _is often borrowed as a sound that's very similar to French _r_.


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## kardorion

Oh, that's right, the word is AĞA, but the letter ğ does not actually have a sound, and it's definitely not pronounced like a French r. This word AĞA sounds more like a very long "a" - "aaa" with the stress at the end of the word. ("a" being like in the word "car" in British English or like the sound "a" in the word fly) It actually means landlord, landowner. But it's also commonly used in small villages for the more respectful / richer men.


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## Han86

Thanks kardorion bey for the perfect answer! 

The pronunciation you described for PAŞA is like how it is still used in northern Syria 

I think the word AĞA is certainly the one, because the meaning is just like what you described. There is no letter g in Arabic so it is often transcribed with the letter that sounds like a French r, though the pronunciation you mentioned is somewhat different.

Teşekkürler a lot efendi ! and thank you modus.irrealis, you look to me like an expert in ancient languages


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## avok

kardorion said:


> Oh, that's right, the word is AĞA, but the letter ğ does not actually have a sound, and it's definitely not pronounced like a French r. This word AĞA sounds more like a very long "a" - "aaa" with the stress at the end of the word. ("a" being like in the word "car" in British English or like the sound "a" in the word fly) It actually means landlord, landowner. But it's also commonly used in small villages for the more respectful / richer men.


 
I guess in some accents and in Azeri (in Mongolian too) the "ğ" letter sounds _somewhat _similar to French r or the Arabic "gh" letter (gayn ?)Nevertheless, in standard Turkish, it is so silent. To be honest, "ğ" is the closest sound to the French r in Turkish.


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## Han86

I would say that in Ottoman Turkish that word looked something like that: اغا because Arabic alphabet doesn't have a g letter. Hence, Arabs pronounced it in their own way.

This happens a lot especially with such languages as Persian and Urdu which use the Arabic letter w to transcribe the letter v (which does not exist in Arabic) but Arabs still pronounce it w and not v. Like the famous example: Persian _divan_ = Arabic _diwan._

I guess these transcription issues can explain why other Turkish words developed different Arabic pronunciations.


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## ameana7

Han86 said:


> Thanks kardorion bey for the perfect answer!
> 
> 
> Teşekkürler a lot *efendi *! and thank you modus.irrealis, you look to me like an expert in ancient languages


 

Dear Han,

The word "efendi" has same meaning with "bey", as Kardorion has already said , BUT, in your sentence it means something different.  (Comic actually).

You can say "X çok efendi biridir." It means, X is very decent, very gentleman. He knows how to treat other people, for example to the parents or to women.

But nowadays, the word "efendi" is used if somebody thinks the person he/she calls isn't his/her equal. Okay I can't explain it.. Help please!  I only want to say that in this sentence it is better if you don't use "efendi".  Sorry for the bad explanation. I hope others will reply soon.


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## Han86

If you mean that it is used today to ridicule people, then I will tell you that it's also not used today in Arabic except for joking, mostly. I thought though that it might have been still used in Turkish as a word "sir."

We use efendi mostly to mock someone who thinks he's hotshot, or things like that.

The words bey, pasa, and hanim are very commonly used in Egypt.

Edit: I remeber now that "afandem" is used in Egypt as a word "sir" and not for joking. In Syria, however, efendi is a degrading word that was a prestigious title in the past.


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## ameana7

Han86 said:


> If you mean that it is used today to ridicule people, then I will tell you that it's also not used today in Arabic except for joking. I thought though that it might have been still used in Turkish as a word "sir."
> 
> Yes , I mean *sometimes* it is used to degrade people. It is not _so_ common.
> 
> We use efendi mostly to mock someone who thinks he's hotshot, or things like that.
> 
> The words bey, pasa, and hanim are very commonly used in Egypt.
> 
> We use them commonly too (except paşa) to call people politely. Bey means sir. Paşa is now commonly used for soldiers (generals, commanders etc).
> 
> Edit: I remeber now that "afandem" is used in Egypt as a word "sir" and not for joking. In Syria, however, efendi is a degrading word that was a prestigious title in the past.
> 
> You can use "efendim" to call somebody superior than you (to your boss for example) with courtesy, but it is not "efendi". Then it means "sir". For instance, "Yes, sir" is in Turkish "evet, efendim."


 
I hope I'm clear now. By the way I didn't want to say something to offend you in my first post. If I did so, due to my poor English, I'm really sorry.


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## kardorion

I'll add some small detail to help ameana. In Turkey today, we use the word efendi but in a slightly different way, as ameana says, we say:
"Evet efendim" - "Yes sir" in a very formal and polite conversation. 
The "m" at the end of the word is the possessive adjective and it means "my sir". That's the way we use it, otherwise, without the m, if you just say "efendi - sir" and not "efendim - my sir" it sounds a bit out of place. That's all.


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## Han86

I wasn't offended at all. Thanks for your post 

What you two say about the -m matches the usage in Arabic. thanks.


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## cherine

Han86 said:


> We use efendi mostly to mock someone who thinks he's hotshot, or things like that.


This is not the case in Egypt, though the word efendi (afandi) is rarely used anyway now. In the past times, it was a respectful title, distinguishing a man who got education and a job.


> The words bey, pasa, and hanim are very commonly used in Egypt.


True  although they were "prohibited" at the begining of the republic (early fifties) and considered remnants of the old royalties. Now they're back to usage, but don't hold the same connotation or value of the old days.

They can also be used in a sarcastic or ironic way, but it depends on the context and the tone to know which meaning is intended 

Also "pasha" is never used for soldiers, but widely used -only colloquially- for officers.



> Edit: I remeber now that "afandem" is used in Egypt as a word "sir" and not for joking.


True. When I talk to my boss, I use "afandem". Some people also used "afandem" to answer the phone, instead of "alo".


ameana7 said:


> You can use "efendim" to call somebody superior than you (to your boss for example) with courtesy, but it is not "efendi". Then it means "sir". For instance, "Yes, sir" is in Turkish "evet, efendim."


Same in Egypt  (Except of course for "evet", which we pronounce as "aywa", the Egyptian word for "yes").


P.S. Seeing that the "m" in efendim indicates the possessive, reminds me of how the king was called: afandina "our efendi"  He was the only one to be called with that title.


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## ameana7

cherine said:


> Seeing that the "m" in efendim indicates the possessive, reminds me of how the king was called: afandina "our efendi"  He was the only one to be called with that title.


 
Yes, "m" is the possessive. I like to see how similar languages we have. They both influence each other. In the Ottoman Empire, the sultan was called "efendimiz" too, which means "our efendi" .  In this case "-miz" is the possessive.


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## cherine

ameana7 said:


> Yes, "m" is the possessive. I like to see how similar languages we have. They both influence each other. In the Ottoman Empire, the sultan was called "efendimiz" too, which means "our efendi" .  In this case "-miz" is the possessive.


In this case we took the exact Ottoman expression and only arabised it a little 

Mutual influences between Turkish and Arabic always fascinate me. Thanks for teaching me something new.


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## avok

cherine said:


> True. When I talk to my boss, I use "afandem". Some people also used "afandem" to answer the phone, instead of "alo".


 When I pick up the phone I also say "Efendim?" here in Turkey.


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## Han86

cherine, please stick to the topic.

And thanks for giving me an honesty credential?!


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## Spectre scolaire

cherine said:
			
		

> When I talk to my boss, I use "afandem". Some people also used "afandem" to answer the phone, instead of "alo".


 The particle [sic] _efendim_ is widely used in Turkish when a subaltern is talking to his/her superior. Redhouse gives the following adequate definition of efendim, “_added to a sentence for politeness_”.

In fact, this word has “suffered” a substantial semantic depreciation due to the total reshuffling of social, political and administrative etiquette following the introduction of the Turkish Republic in the early 1920s. But as the Egyptian usage clearly shows, the connotation in question was common long before the 1920s.

I call it a “particle”, and the word functions in Turkish as nothing but that, being regularly interspersed in the conversation as to keeping up the polite level, as it were. Sometimes you only hear ef[æ]... in the middle of a sentence. 
 By contrast, the Latinism *sic* is never – never! – used in Turkish. ​


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