# I will be just watching



## Emerlander

Being exposed mainly to AmE, it feels odd for me to use 'shall' anywhere except for such questions. Long time ago, I read it's not a big issue to use 'will' instead of 'shall' these days. So I just use 'will'. Is that idiomatic in BrE? Some examples for clarity:


1) I will be just watching TV in the evenings.
2) I won't be just watching TV in the evenings.
3) Sorry, we will be late.
4) Sorry, we won't be on time.


In both the sentences the speaker is using 'will' merely to form the future tense rather than to show determination that something will be done. So are they idiomatic?


----------



## Loob

Yes, we normally use "will" these days for all persons of the future tense (except when we're making offers or suggestions).

Your sentences are idiomatic, except that:
- I'd swap "just" and "be" around in your first two sentences, 
- I'd probably use a contraction in (1) and (3).


----------



## Lun-14

Hi Loob,


Loob said:


> except when we're making *offers* or *suggestions*).


Would you be so kind to give one example for each usage that I've bold-faced?


----------



## Loob

See Emerlander's other thread, Lun: Is 'shall' idiomatic in conversational English?


----------



## Lun-14

Loob said:


> See Emerlander's other thread, Lun: Is 'shall' idiomatic in conversational English?


Thanks. I've seen the thread: in offers/suggestions, 'shall+I/we' structure is used. But I want to know when you would use 'I/we+shall'. Could you please help?


----------



## Loob

I don't,  usually.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

There are examples of the use of 'shall' to make offers or suggestions on that thread. Otherwise we don't use 'shall' these days and it shouldn't be taught.


----------



## Emerlander

Loob said:


> Yes, we normally use "will" these days for all persons of the future tense (except when we're making offers or suggestions).
> 
> Your sentences are idiomatic, except that:
> - I'd swap "just" and "be" around in your first two sentences,
> - I'd probably use a contraction in (1) and (3).



Thanks a lot! Yeah, it sounds natural when I swap the words.

I didn't contract them just to make it clear I used will instead of shall. But thanks for mentioning it. It gives a clearer picture of what's idiomatic in BrE.


----------



## Emerlander

Lun-14 said:


> Thanks. I've seen the thread: in offers/suggestions, 'shall+I/we' structure is used. But I want to know when you would use 'I/we+shall'. Could you please help?



There's info in this link in the oxford dictionaries website about the rules of using shall and will. Scroll down in the page and look under the title 'Usage'.  But it's best to use (or not use) the words like suggested by the native speakers here. Here's another article about the verbs in a blog of oxford dictionaries.


----------



## Loob

Useful links, Emerlander,  especially the second one.


----------



## Emerlander

Loob said:


> Useful links, Emerlander,  especially the second one.



Thanks.  Found it when I did a bit of researching before deciding to ask here.


----------



## Enquiring Mind

[I was asked by private message to comment on BrE usage in this thread:] I agree with all the usage comments here, and especially the posts in the thread linked to by Loob in #4. In today's English, "shall" occurs in three ways: (1) in formal (legal) English, where it expresses an obligation or undertaking - you have to do whatever is followed by "shall":


> For registration, the user shall give accurate information and, where such information changes over time, update such information (to the extent possible: online) without undue delay. The user shall ensure that its e-mail address, as supplied to California Hydronics Corporation, is current at all times (flowtherm.com)


 or (2) to make a suggestion - usually only with "shall I/we?".  So "shall we go for a walk?" (= "would you like to go for a walk with me?"), "shall I put the kettle on?" (= "would you like me to put the kettle on?"); or (3) to express an intention rather than simply a future action (and then it's increasingly replaced by "will"). So "if you don't arrive on time, I shall/will go without you".


----------



## Einstein

I too was asked by private message to comment on this thread. I agree with the others. A sentence like "I shall be happy when this film ends" is not wrong, but is far less common nowadays and I would not recommend teaching it, certainly not to beginners.
At school in the 1960s I was taught that we should use "shall" in the first person, but even then it sounded rather stilted. It's used only in the cases mentioned by the others.


----------



## Keith Bradford

Enquiring Mind said:


> ... In today's English, "shall" occurs in three ways:
> (1) in formal (legal) English, where it expresses an obligation or undertaking - you have to do whatever is followed by "shall":
> or
> (2) to make a suggestion - usually only with "shall I/we?".  So "shall we go for a walk?" (= "would you like to go for a walk with me?"), "shall I put the kettle on?" (= "would you like me to put the kettle on?"); or
> (3) to express an intention rather than simply a future action (and then it's increasingly replaced by "will"). So "if you don't arrive on time, I shall/will go without you".


Very well summarised; I agree.  For example (3), I personally use *shall*, or else I abbreviate to_ *I'll*_, which hides all difficulties.


----------



## Lun-14

Einstein said:


> A sentence like "I shall be happy when this film ends" is not wrong, but is far less common nowadays and I would not recommend teaching it.


Could I please ask you to explain why you wouldn't recommended using it?


----------



## Loob

Lun-14 said:


> Could I please ask you to explain why you wouldn't recommended using it?


What part of "it is far less common nowadays" don't you understand, Lun?

And why did you misquote Einstein? What he actually said was "I would not recommend teaching it, especially to beginners".

Edit: typo​


----------



## Einstein

Lun-14 said:


> Could I please ask you to explain why you wouldn't recommended using it?


I said I wouldn't recommend *teaching *it. If people want to *use *it, no problem, that's their business and they would be understood.
I wouldn't teach it to beginners because it would be an unnecessary complication and wouldn't reflect the reality of modern English.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

> So "if you don't arrive on time, I shall/will go without you"


Usually the contraction 'll makes it impossible to know  if shall or will is intended. But in an argument, if I want emphasis, I have to use the full form and it will come out as 'shall', especially when it's expressing a threat and stands alone as I _shall!
"Don't you think I won't leave without you, because I most certainly shall"._


----------



## Hermione Golightly

I declined to comment by PM.


----------



## Einstein

Hermione Golightly said:


> Usually the contraction 'll makes it impossible to know if shall or will is intended.


An alternative view is that _I'll_ is the contraction of _I will_, while _I shall_ doesn't have a contraction. This has made people prefer _I'll_, hence the decline in _I shall_. I find it difficult to imagine uncontracting _I'll_ to _I shall_.


----------



## Loob

Einstein said:


> An alternative view is that _I'll_ is the contraction of _I will_, while _I shall_ doesn't have a contraction. ...


That's how I see it.


----------



## Lun-14

Einstein said:


> I too was asked by private message to comment on this thread. I agree with the others. A sentence like "I shall be happy when this film ends" is not wrong, but is far less common nowadays and I would not recommend teaching it, certainly not to beginners.
> At school in the 1960s I was taught that we should use "shall" in the first person, but even then it sounded rather stilted. It's used only in the cases mentioned by the others.


Thanks, Einstein.
There is a sentence in the second link of #9:
*I shall be in Japan, but you will be in New York.*

Can you explain why it is 'shall' in the first clause but 'will' in the second clause?


----------



## Loob

Lun-14 said:


> Can you explain why it is 'shall' in the first clause but 'will' in the second clause?


It's a heading introducing a discussion of shall and will. I suggest you read the rest of the discussion.


----------



## velisarius

Hermione Golightly said:


> Usually the contraction 'll makes it impossible to know  if shall or will is intended. But in an argument, if I want emphasis, I have to use the full form and it will come out as 'shall', especially when it's expressing a threat and stands alone as I _shall!
> "Don't you think I won't leave without you, because I most certainly shall"._



Traditionally, the emphatic first person form has been "I will..."  I was taught in school, many years ago, that "shall" is the correct, usual and unemphatic form for the first person future: "I shall/we shall probably go there", but "I will/we will definitely go there". 

Of course such usage is now very dated. Sometimes when I'm writing and "I'll..." seems too informal, I stop and think a little whether I want it to mean  that "I shall..."or "I will do something".


----------



## Lun-14

Hi,
Could you please let me know, which of the following arguments is *true/strong* as per modern British English:

-> Modern British English is only using "shall" in offers/suggestions and in the cases mentioned by EM in #12 and in the cases mentioned in the links given by the OP in #9. If it is not a offer/suggestion and is not the case that EM and OP told about in #12 and #9, then use "will" no matter which the pronoun is - I mean, then we wouldn't follow the traditional "I/we -> *shall*, all other pronouns -> *will*" rule.

-> Modern British English is only using "shall" in offers/suggestions in the form of 'Shall I/we'. If there is not an offer/suggestion, then we should use "will" no matter which the case (I'm talking about the cases  of using "shall" mentioned in #9 and #12!) is and which the pronoun is.


----------



## natkretep

Enquiring Mind (post no 12) has already given a good summary. So yes, an important use is in offers and suggestions; but you will also encounter it in legal language to express an obligation, and to express an intention.


----------



## se16teddy

Lun-14 said:


> Modern British English is only using "shall" in


You can't be so dogmatic.

Many older British speakers are still influenced by schoolteachers who told them to use _shall_ in the first person and _will_ elsewhere.

Also, many British people are avid readers of old translations of the Bible (or other older literature), and (at least in literary writing or when discussing some religious matters) can use_ shall_ and_ will_ in their pre-1850 senses:
- epistemic: will = probability or prediction, shall = inevitable consequence
- deontic: will = the will of the subject of the verb, such as consent and insistence; shall = enacting someone else's will such as following laws and orders and divine prescription.


----------



## Uncle Jack

Lun-14 said:


> Hi,
> Could you please let me know, which of the following arguments is *true/strong* as per modern British English:


You will find 'will' and 'shall' used in all the various ways native speakers in this thread have described. However, if you are writing a sentence yourself, provided you are not writing in a legal or contractual context, your own post describes the best advice to follow.


----------



## PaulQ

Where *shall *is used, *and it is used rarely,* it is mainly used in cases where the speaker believes that they have almost1  absolute control over the circumstances. This may seem a little dramatic for simple statements/suggestions such as "Shall we have a cup of tea?" but the point is that the speaker knows that this is possible and that they can fulfill the action if required.

"Will we have a cup of tea?" expresses some hope and or doubt that a cup of tea will be forthcoming.

Elsewhere there are other examples as per links above.

1I have added "almost" as the future is, in basic terms, unknowable.


----------



## Packard

Loob said:


> I don't,  usually.



You shan't?


----------



## MarcB

Although the OP is about BE, it is safe to say this is true of all varieties of English.


----------



## Lun-14

MarcB said:


> it is safe to say this is true of all varieties of English


What are you talking about, Marc?


----------



## MarcB

Lun-14 said:


> What are you talking about, Marc?


The use of will.


----------



## Lun-14

MarcB said:


> The use of will.


Can you explain your point in some detail, please?


----------



## MarcB

I mean the examples given for BE are not specific to BE they are applicable everywhere.


----------



## Lun-14

What really is confusing me is the following posts made by Loob and Hermione:



Loob said:


> Yes, we normally use "will" these days for all persons of the future tense (except when we're making offers or suggestions).





Hermione Golightly said:


> There are examples of the use of 'shall' to make offers or suggestions on that thread. Otherwise we don't use 'shall' these days and it shouldn't be taught.



These posts clearly say that BrE doesn't at all use "shall" these days. On the other hand, Enquiring Mind's post#12 and Emerlander's links in post#9 say that "shall" is being used in BrE.

One party (Loob and Hermione) claims that BrE doesn't use "shall" at all, while the other party (Enquiring Mind and Emerlander's links) claims that BrE uses "shall".


Which party is right as per modern British English? Which party should I follow?


Loob, Hermione,
Would you please clear this up for me?


----------



## Lun-14

MarcB said:


> The use of will.


I think you meant to write "shall", _not_ "will". Right?


----------



## se16teddy

Lun-14 said:


> Which party is right? Which party should I follow?


 You have to make up your own mind as to what principles you wish to follow. Or, if you are trying to impress someone else, observe what they do.


----------



## MarcB

Lun-14 said:


> I think you meant to write "shall", _not_ "will". Right?


Six of one half dozen of the other.
As for your confusion of what you think is a contradiction. I will summarize, shall has become obsolete for some speakers and it's still in use by others in very limited contexts.
Explaining to second language learners of English these contexts is not important since will, will suffice in all contexts it would be prudent to use only will and to ignore the limited use of shall.


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Lun
You really need to learn to read.

I said:


> There are examples of the use of 'shall' to make offers or suggestions on that thread. _Otherwise_ we don't use 'shall' these days and it shouldn't be taught.


You say:


> These posts clearly say that BrE doesn't at all use "shall" these days.





> One party (Loob and Hermione) claims that BrE doesn't use "shall" at all,


*No, we do not say that.*

You do not need to bother teaching 'shall' except for offers and suggestions, which are important social functions.
The other uses might be discussed at a very advanced level, which you are not teaching, (I hope).
Teaching has to be done by stages, little by little, over years. Your students have far more important things to learn than relatively unusual uses of 'shall', which as students they are very unlikely to need to use. If you flood them with non-essentials, they'll be even more confused, than you constantly 'claim' to be.


----------



## Lun-14

Hermione Golightly said:


> Lun
> You really need to learn to read.
> 
> I said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No, they do not.*
> 
> You do not need to bother teaching 'shall' except for offers and suggestions which are important social functions.
> The other uses might be discussed at a very advanced level, which you are not teaching.
> 
> Your English is remarkably good when you choose.
> 
> Teaching has to be done by stages over years. Your students have far more important things to learn than relatively unusual uses of 'shall'.


So this is what you and Loob meant:

"Shall" is really being used in BrE these days in the cases explained Enquiring Mind (#12) and the Emerlander's links (#9), but *very rarely*. I think that is why Loob and you said BrE don't use 'shall' these days. I think when you both said "we *don't* use 'shall' these days", you both meant we (BrE) use 'shall' *very rarely *in the sense explained by EM and Emerlander's links.

Am I right?


----------



## Hermione Golightly

I'm past caring! You'll have to think whatever you want, speaking for myself.


----------



## heypresto

Lun-14 said:


> I think that is why Loob and you said BrE don't use 'shall' these days.




That is *not* what they said.

Read their comments again. The *whole *of their comments. And then re-read Hermione's comments in post #40. And then re-read the whole thread from the start.


----------



## Lun-14

heypresto said:


> That is *not* what they said.
> 
> Read their comments again. The *whole *of their comments. And then re-read Hermione's comments in post #40. And then re-read the whole thread from the start.


Please don't make things confusing for me. Can't you simply state what Loob and Hermione actually meant?


----------



## Lun-14

I just want to know about the usages of "shall"mentioned by Enquiring Mind in #12 and the OP's links in #9. 
I want to know whether these usages are common in today's British English, whether they are rare (less common) in today's British English or whether they are _completely_ obsolete.

That's only what I want to ask.
That's it!


----------



## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> Can't you simply state what Loob and Hermione actually meant?


They have already stated what they meant. 

"Shall" is not obsolete. As for what you feel are conflicting views in this thread, you'll just have to learn to live with them. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be in agreement always.


----------



## velisarius

I  wonder whether Lun has seen this thread. I think it contains sensible suggestions for teaching 'will' to younger pupils and mentioning the rarer uses of 'shall' in more advanced classes. 

Shall vs will [current formal BE]


----------



## panjandrum

_[[ Moderator Note.  This thread has become circular and repetitive.  If that's repetitive, it fits in the general tenor of this thread.  There are many other threads about shall and will. 

Shall/will usage is variable.
Those brought up with the distinction can use it naturally and consistently.
Many of them relax the distinction in the company of non-users.
Those not brought up with the distinction find it difficult to acquire fluently, and often sound unconvincing, if not wrong.

The thread has been closed to avoid further confusion. 
panjandrum]]_​


----------

