# je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs



## semperredux

I found this quote in the following context:

Il aimait à citer et à s'approprier le mot mélancolique d'A. d'Orbigny sur la fin de sa carrière : « Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs.» Aucun savant peut-être n'en commit pourtant moins que lui.

I am having trouble understanding the tense of “je commence...” Is it:

“I begin to have made many errors."
or
"I am beginning to make many errors."
or
"I begin having made many errors" (this makes sense given the context, but is not at all grammatical).

THANKS!


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## akaAJ

It is indeed a peculiar structure.  Perhaps it is a wry commentary that _others_ have started finding errors in his work (perhaps erroneously, perhaps in the spirit in which Aristides was blackballed).


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## hampton.mc

What it means is "I am starting to realize now that I have made a lot of mistakes (during my life time).
At this point of his life and looking back he realizes that he has made a lot of mistakes.


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## timboleicester

semperredux said:


> I found this quote in the following context:
> 
> Il aimait à citer et à s'approprier le mot mélancolique d'A. d'Orbigny sur la fin de sa carrière : « *Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs*.» Aucun savant peut-être n'en commit pourtant moins que lui.
> 
> I am having trouble understanding the tense of “je commence...” Is it:
> 
> “I begin to have made many errors."
> or
> "I am beginning to make many errors."
> or
> "I begin having made many errors" (this makes sense given the context, but is not at all grammatical).
> 
> THANKS!


 
I am sorry but this is surely not grammatically correct and to my mind means nothing.


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## hampton.mc

Je commence à avoir collectionné beaucoup de timbres
Je commence à avoir lu beaucoup de livres
Je commence à avoir trop bu
etc...


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## LV4-26

_Je commence_ here implies he may make more errors in the future that will increase the count (of his already numerous errors).

I'm not really sure how to word that in correct English but hope you get the idea.


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## pointvirgule

Orbigny était un paléontologue qui vécut dans la première moitié du XIXe siècle. À cette époque où cette science était encore jeune, j'imagine facilement qu'on ne puisse pas avoir tout vrai du premier coup. Donc, à mesure que la science évoluait, on a découvert quelques erreurs dans les travaux et classements d'O., ce qui est normal. Dans ce contexte, sa remarque -- très spirituelle, je trouve -- a du sens : _je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs = il commence à s'avérer que j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs._ 

En anglais, c'est la même chose : _I'm beginning to have made many mistakes_.


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## LV4-26

pointvirgule said:


> Orbigny était un paléontologue qui vécut dans la première moitié du XIXe siècle. À cette époque où cette science était encore jeune, j'imagine facilement qu'on ne puisse pas avoir tout vrai du premier coup. Donc, à mesure que la science évoluait, on a découvert quelques erreurs dans les travaux et classements d'O., ce qui est normal. Dans ce contexte, sa remarque -- très spirituelle, je trouve -- a du sens : _je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs = il commence à s'avérer que j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs._
> 
> En anglais, c'est la même chose : _I'm beginning to have made many mistakes_.


Je trouve que _I'm beginning to have made many mistakes _sonne vraiment bizarre en anglais.

Pour ma part, le mieux que j'aie trouvé pour l'instant, c'est...
_I've made many mistakes already._


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## Nicomon

LV4-26 said:


> Je trouve que _I'm beginning to have made many mistakes _sonne vraiment bizarre en anglais.
> 
> Pour ma part, le mieux que j'aie trouvé pour l'instant, c'est...
> _I've made many mistakes already._


 Perso, je trouve au contraire qu'une traduction littérale - j'hésite entre _starting _et_ beginning_ - permet de garder le même ton spirituel, et que l'anglais ne sonne pas plus bizarre que « _je commence à avoir fait_ ». 

_I've made many mistakes already_ est moins inusité, mais il me semble qu'en français, ce serait _« J'ai déjà fait beaucoup d'erreurs/j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs déjà (à ce jour).  _


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## semperredux

Dear All,

This is my first time on the forum. I cannot thank you enough for all your thoughtful responses. A very interesting range of interpretations.

Bien amicalement,
semperredux


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## pointvirgule

Oh, by the way - welcome to the forum, semperredux.


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## Nicomon

Oups... I never noticed that you were a newcomer. 

My turn to welcome you to the forum, semperredux.


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## mirifica

Bonjour,

Explication : je commence à faire le compte de mes erreurs ?


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## Jasmine tea

Lors d'un dîner bien arrosé, à un moment déjà avancé du dîner, quelqu'un dit "je commence à avoir beaucoup bu". Il constate le résultat (il commence à être un peu guilleret, à se sentir ivre au-delà de ce qui lui semble acceptable). En quelque sorte, il dit qu'il faudrait qu'il arrête de boire maintenant...
Je pense que c'est pareil ici.
"Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs"= il constate (ou d'autres en font le constat, et il l'accepte, le reconnaît) qu'il a fait des erreurs, maintenant il faudrait que j'arrête... (de faire des erreurs ou de continuer ses travaux...)


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## LV4-26

Nicomon said:


> Perso, je trouve au contraire qu'une traduction littérale - j'hésite entre _starting _et_ beginning_ - permet de garder le même ton spirituel, et que l'anglais ne sonne pas plus bizarre que « _je commence à avoir fait_ ».
> 
> _I've made many mistakes already_ est moins inusité, mais il me semble qu'en français, ce serait _« J'ai déjà fait beaucoup d'erreurs/j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs déjà (à ce jour).  _


Peut-être.
En tous cas, ce n'est pas par hasard que j'ai choisi de mettre _already_ à la fin. Il me semble que cet ordre de mots rapproche ma phrase du sens que nous cherchons à traduire. Mais j'admets que c'est très intuitif.

Il faudrait probablement un "panel" plus large d'anglophones mais, jusqu'ici, la structure [_I'm beginning to _ + infinitif passé] n'a pas l'air de soulever leur enthousiasme et je partage leur scepticisme.
Or, l'expression française d'origine s'entend fréquemment. Voir les exemples donnés par hampton.mc, post 5.


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## Nicomon

LV4-26 said:


> En tous cas, ce n'est pas par hasard que j'ai choisi de mettre _already_ à la fin.


 J'ai bien pensé que ce n'était pas par hasard, et je suis d'accord avec toi qu'on se rapproche. On pourrait aussi (je crois) remplacer already en fin de phrase par... _so far_. 

Le sens y est, bien sûr, mais il me semble qu'il manque le côté spirituel. _I'm starting to have made_ ne me choque pas... mais je ne suis pas anglophone. 
On commence (à peine) à avoir fait le tour de la question. Attendons.


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## akaAJ

"I'm starting to have made many mistakes" does [grossly] offend my USE ear.  I might accept PV's arguments for the high probability of error in early paleontology, if it weren't for the conclusion of the thread text "Aucun savant peut-être n'en commit pourtant moins que lui."  Perhaps it is jasmine tea's (#14) broader and more nuanced explanation than my attempt (#2), but it still seems to me to have the after-the-fact flavor or Mark Twain's anecdote "When I was 19 I thought my father was stupid.  When I was 21 I was amazed by how much my father had learned in two years."


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## timboleicester

I am starting to have had enough...

I can't find any reference to such a construction in my admittedly scanty library or for that matter on the INTERNET. As for the examples that are claimed to be "widely" heard I can find very few doing a cursory search with google.

I am starting/beginning to +infinitive + past participle to my British ears seems impossible. Are you all sure that this is standard French? Can anyone provide any links as in the 30 years + I have never heard it. Alors je veux me coucher moins con ce soir!


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## Nicomon

There is no doubt in my mind as to the meaning of the French sentence, and every francophone on this thread has explained it correctly, in my opinion.

_- Je commence à avoir trop bu _
_- Je commence à avoir mon voyage_ (Quebec expression, equivalent to : _je commence à en avoir assez_) =
(here translating literally) _I'm starting to be fed up/to have had enough_

are indeed expressions that you might hear.

_Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs_... may be less so. Now, how to render this in proper English is another thing altogether.


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## timboleicester

Nicomon said:


> There is no doubt in my mind as to the meaning of the French sentence, and every francophone on this thread has explained it correctly, in my opinion.
> 
> _- Je commence à avoir trop bu _
> _- Je commence à avoir mon voyage_ (Quebec expression, equivalent to : _je commence à en avoir assez_) =
> (here translating literally) _I'm starting to be fed up/to have had enough_
> 
> are indeed expressions that you might hear.
> 
> _Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs_... may be less so. Now, how to render this in proper English is another thing altogether.


 
The two examples you site are fundamentally different constructions the first being infinitive of avoir + past participle and the second being avoir + noun. Why you have quoted them together as forming examples of the posters phrase eludes me. I am making enquiries of francophone friends to aid the debate and the two I have so far tracked down have told me that it isn't indeed correct French but they are not infallable...far from it. I will continue.


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## Nicomon

@timboleicester : Well... I did write that the thread example isn't (as far as I know) as common/frequent as the examples I cited.

Hamptonmc gave 2 additional examples in post #5, which are the same construction as the sentence whe're discussing. Those wouldn't come to me spontaneously either. 

- Je commence à avoir collectionné beaucoup de timbres = Je commence à avoir beaucoup de timbres dans ma collection. (Avant, j'en avais peu)
- Je commence à avoir lu beaucoup de livres = (Je réalise que) j'ai lu beaucoup de livres jusqu'à maintenant.

If a construction such as _I'm beginning/starting to have made_ doesn't work, to keep the irony, then I vote for LV4-26's solution : 
_I've made many mistakes already_ or perhaps as I suggested_... so far. _

I'm off this thread (I think).


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## pointvirgule

akaAJ said:


> "I'm starting to have made many mistakes" does [grossly] offend my USE ear.  I might accept PV's arguments for the high probability of error in early paleontology, if it weren't for the conclusion of the thread text "Aucun savant peut-être n'en commit pourtant moins que lui."


What this says is that although he didn't in fact commit so many mistakes, he still thinks he made too many. The citation does mention that it is a "melancholic" statement. 

At this point, I would very much like to see translation suggestions from English natives.


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## timboleicester

Nicomon said:


> @timboleicester : Well... I did write that the thread example isn't (as far as I know) as common/frequent as the examples I cited.
> 
> Hamptonmc gave 2 additional examples in post #5, which are the same construction as the sentence whe're discussing. Those wouldn't come to me spontaneously either.
> 
> - Je commence à avoir collectionné beaucoup de timbres = Je commence à avoir beaucoup de timbres dans ma collection. (Avant, j'en avais peu)
> - Je commence à avoir lu beaucoup de livres = (Je réalise que) j'ai lu beaucoup de livres jusqu'à maintenant.
> 
> If a construction such as _I'm beginning/starting to have made_ doesn't work, to keep the irony, then I vote for LV4-26's solution :
> _I've made many mistakes already_ or perhaps as I suggested_... so far. _
> 
> I'm off this thread (I think).


 
I'm sorry I didn't mean to be rude or anything......please stay on the post. I just called my best (educated) French Friend and just wove it into the conversation...... she asked me how my Christmas had been and I replied 
"Je commence a avoir trop bu......" she seems to not register any clanging but I hope this wasn't out of politeness....


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## hampton.mc

timboleicester said:


> The two examples you site are fundamentally different constructions the first being infinitive of avoir + past participle and the second being avoir + noun. Why you have quoted them together as forming examples of the posters phrase eludes me. I am making enquiries of francophone friends to aid the debate and the two I have so far tracked down have told me that it isn't indeed correct French but they are not infallable...far from it. I will continue.



We have been telling you that the sentence is correct and understandable in French. Nicomon's first example has exactly the same structure except for the "trop" which can be easily removed:
Je commence à avoir bu plus que de raison...
Voir


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## timboleicester

hampton.mc said:


> We have been telling you that the sentence is correct and understandable in French. Nicomon's first example has exactly the same structure except for the "trop" which can be easily removed:
> Je commence à avoir bu plus que de raison...
> Voir


 
I did a sample of the "google" and they all seem to be versions on one phrase namely " ... a avoir fait le tour....... this selection does not lend itself to the idea that the expression is widely used. The question I ask really is whether this contruction is "standard" French.


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## Cath.S.

_I turn out to have made a lot of mistakes_?

Edit
Timboleister, the sentence is standard, but I would call its structure colloquial


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## timboleicester

Cath.S. said:


> _I turn out to have made a lot of mistakes_?


 
Grammatically correct in my view and understandable too....but I am afraid it doesn't sound right...


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## hampton.mc

timboleicester said:


> I did a sample of the "google" and they all seem to be versions on one phrase namely " ... a avoir fait le tour....... this selection does not lend itself to the idea that the expression is widely used. The question I ask really is whether this contruction is "standard" French.



Did we say it was widely used? I don't think so, just that "je commence à avoir + pp was correct and that we all have heard or used it at least once:
"Je commence à avoir trop bu" 
Si tu te donnes la peine de continuer sur les pages Google que j'ai mises dans mon précédent post tu trouveras quelques autres exemples :
je commence à avoir fait pas mal de tests.
Je commence à avoir fait pas mal de boîtes dans ma vie
Je commence à avoir fait tellement que j'ai des doutes
Comme je n'ai pas de problème avec cette expression, je te laisse trouver le reste tout seul.
Bonne Chance


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## pointvirgule

Cath.S. said:


> _I turn out to have made a lot of mistakes_?


Oui, c'est bien l'idée, Cath (telle que je la comprends, en tous cas). Il y manque, je trouve, la _twist _de la phrase française, car cette phrase se retraduirait en _Il s'avère que j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs_. On y perd l'espèce de paradoxe temporel de l'original. Il manque aussi l'aspect de commencement.

Peut-être : _It's beginning to turn out that... ?_

Si la trad littérale est trop offensante pour les chastes oreilles américaines, je suppose que quelque chose comme ça fera l'affaire.


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## akaAJ

OK, I have been educated.
_I turn out to have made a lot of mistakes_? is not bad.  In USE it might be rephrased, "t turns out I have made many mistakes."  Or, closer to the original, "I am beginning to see/to realize that I have made many mistakes", "I am beginning to acknowledge having made many mistakes"  I can't see any English construction that resembles what to me and to most of the Anglophones on the thread seems to be a contradiction in English but valid in French. [Wan ]


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## timboleicester

hampton.mc said:


> *Did we say it was widely used?* I don't think so, just that "je commence à avoir + pp was correct and that we all have heard or used it at least once:
> "Je commence à avoir trop bu"
> Si tu te donnes la peine de continuer sur les pages Google que j'ai mises dans mon précédent post tu trouveras quelques autres exemples :
> je commence à avoir fait pas mal de tests.
> Je commence à avoir fait pas mal de boîtes dans ma vie
> Je commence à avoir fait tellement que j'ai des doutes
> Comme je n'ai pas de problème avec cette expression, je te laisse trouver le reste tout seul.
> Bonne Chance


 
Well maybe not "we" but no one contradicted post 15* "Or, l'expression française d'origine s'entend fréquemment. Voir les exemples donnés par hampton.mc, post 5. *I think this amounts to the same thing really, but that's not the point. Lots of things are understandable. I was enquiring, after my intial doubts, as to wether this contruction is _standard_ French. Are there any examples with a different past participle...?


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## Cath.S.

Qui cherche trouve._

Je commence à en avoir soupé d'attendre.
Quand on commence à avoir appris un certain nombre de choses..._
_Je commence à avoir beaucoup voyagé._

Je n'ai pas fait tous les verbes, évidemment, ni toutes les formes verbales. Et je n'ai _aucune_ intention de le faire.


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## hampton.mc

timboleicester said:


> Well maybe not "we" but no one contradicted post 15* "Or, l'expression française d'origine s'entend fréquemment. Voir les exemples donnés par hampton.mc, post 5. *I think this amounts to the same thing really, but that's not the point. Lots of things are understandable. I was enquiring, after my intial doubts, as to wether this contruction is _standard_ French. Are there any examples with a different past participle...?



NON ce n'est pas standard néanmoins la construction existe
Je commence à avoir participé à beaucoup de fils dans ce forum
Je commence à avoir acquis une certaine expérience dans ce domaine

Je commence à en avoir vraiment marre


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## timboleicester

hampton.mc said:


> NON ce n'est pas standard néanmoins la construction existe
> Je commence à avoir participé à beaucoup de fils dans ce forum
> Je commence à avoir acquis une certaine expérience dans ce domaine
> 
> Je commence à en avoir vraiment marre


 

marre = adjective....


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## mgarizona

I've gotten to where I've collected quite a lot of stamps.
I've gotten to where I've read quite a few books.
I've gotten to where I've made I've made quite a few mistakes.

or:

By now I've made quite a few mistakes.

And another way entirely to go about it:

The number of mistakes I've made is starting to add up.
The number of books I've read is starting to add up.

(in those phrases, "to add up" = "to be significant.")


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## hampton.mc

timboleicester said:


> marre = adjective....



YES!!! Glad we agree on something


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## Cath.S.

Eh oui, MC ; j'ai évite ce piège avec _soupé_.


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## timboleicester

hampton.mc said:


> YES!!! Glad we agree on something


 

I have a suspicion that the expression used in post 1 is there for a comic effect as it is already talking about "mistakes" this phrase which by all accounts is not standard French (according to you) therefore as it will sound odd to the ear adds to the comedy.

Your exemples, apart from the flippant marre one, all seem to be pretty standard in the way that you are using them. Why, therefore, do you say that they are not standard? You can't have your cake and eat it. 

Well I will be back later as the cats need fed


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## jann

I like Mgarizona's suggestions.  The expression "getting to the point where..." was the first to come to my mind.  It's a bit colloquial, and fits nicely with the humor of the original idea.  Including "starting to get to the point" reinforces the spoken aspect.  (Many usage examples here...)
_
--> I'm starting to get to the point where I've made a lot of mistakes._

(I'm getting to the point where I've made a lot of mistakes.)


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## hampton.mc

L'effet comique m'échappe dans le post 1...
Pas standard, dans le sens où on l'utilise dans des tournures de phrases bien spécifiques et pas couramment. 
Pity about that cake 
Better go and feed my four cats


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## Cath.S.

timboleicester said:
			
		

> I have a suspicion that the expression used in post 1 is there for a comic effect


Nope. Sorry.

And just in case no one read my previous posts, I would insist the construction is colloquial.
By no means would I react to it with a laugh, especially not in this case.

J'ajoute que mes propres chats _commencent à avoir pris _pas mal de poids, maintenant que c'est l'hiver et qu'ils ne sortent presque plus.


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## timboleicester

Cath.S. said:


> Nope. Sorry.
> 
> And just in case no one read my previous posts, I would insist the construction is colloquial.
> By no means would I react to it with a laugh, especially not in this case.
> 
> J'ajoute que mes propres chats _commencent à avoir pris _pas mal de poids, maintenant que c'est l'hiver et qu'ils ne sortent presque plus.


 

C'est pourtant vrai qu'on voit de plus en plus de phrases de ce genre....mais c'est agaçant de découvrir que 30 ans se sont écoulés sans que je me rende pas compte de leur existence!


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## Jasmine tea

Dear Timboleicester, this wording definitely does exist in french. And actually it is needed to enable us to express something very specific.
Let's take an example:
- Je commence à faire le tour de la question
- Je commence à avoir fait le tour de la question.
In the first case I am really at the beginning of my task. In the second case I am at the end of my task. But I am saying it in a humble way. Instead of boasting off and saying AH! Mais j'ai fait le tour de la question (I know everything now about this issue), I want to stay modest. I could say, instead, "il me semble que j'ai fait le tour de la question", even then I would prefer to say "il me semble que je commence à avoir fait le tour de la question" (double humbleness, if such a thing exists).

Maybe in english, a different wording of the sentence would help us out. (instead of trying to work out the translation with the verb tenses/conjugation). French gives a lot of liberty with the tons of different verb tenses and modes (indicatif, subjonctif, conditionnel etc), but other languages probably find this liberty in different ways....

P.S. a quick edit to my post: I had missed a whole page of posts sent meanwhile....so "désolée pour les redondances avec la discussion en cours". But I still send this post because I don't think the wording used here is (only) colloquial.


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## LV4-26

I like mgarizona's suggestion of _I've gotten to_ (in AE at least) and I like jann's _I'm getting to the point_ even better.
I think they capture the idea we're after fairly well.
I'd like to add my own, which is only a close variant of jann's
_It's getting to the point where...._

I'm not sure how it works for _make many mistakes_ but it does sound pretty natural to me in sentences like...
_It's getting to the point where I've really had enough. 
It's getting to the point where I've tried everything._
(je commence à avoir tout essayé).


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## LV4-26

timboleicester said:


> Well maybe not "we" but no one contradicted post 15* "Or, l'expression française d'origine s'entend fréquemment. Voir les exemples donnés par hampton.mc, post 5. *I think this amounts to the same thing really, but that's not the point. Lots of things are understandable. I was enquiring, after my intial doubts, as to wether this contruction is _standard_ French. Are there any examples with a different past participle...?


Yep, that was me. 
I agree that "heard frequently" is somewhat vague and misleading.
And it's true that it sounds more natural with some verbs than with others.

By order of relatve frequency ==>
_Je commence à avoir trop bu/mangé
Je commence à avoir fait le tour de la question.
Je commence à avoir tout essayé._
.....................

We'd probably have to go deeper in the list to find _Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs_. However, it still passes almost unnoticed.


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## timboleicester

LV4-26 said:


> Yep, that was me.
> I agree that "heard frequently" is somewhat vague and misleading.
> And it's true that it sounds more natural with some verbs than with others.
> 
> By order of relat*i*ve frequency ==>
> _Je commence à avoir trop bu/mangé_
> _Je commence à avoir fait le tour de la question._
> _Je commence à avoir tout essayé._
> .....................
> 
> We'd probably have to go deeper in the list to find _Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs_. However, it still passes almost unnoticed.


 
I am here to learn so thanks for the contributions...ok I put my hand up to the fact that I thought it was just plain wrong but if my francophone friends say it's OK then who am I?

To recap for my own sanity it is standard French, by this I mean the equivalent of the standard English that the National Curriculum says should be taught in UK schools ( incidentally there is no definition of what this standard English is) 

It's not regional in structure or colloquial in register and can be used everywhere?


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## Jasmine tea

timboleicester said:


> It's not regional in structure or colloquial in register and can be used everywhere?


 
I think so : It can be used both in current language and in more "stylistic" means. 
But, of course, I am like you, learning every day too. And the only thing I know is that a language (vocaboulary and wording) can be used and understood (and evolving everyday!) in as many ways as there are human beings in our world...


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## timboleicester

Jasmine tea said:


> I think so : It can be used both in current language and in more "stylistic" means.
> But, of course, I am like you, learning every day too. And the only thing I know is that a language (vocabulary and wording) can be used and understood (and evolving everyday!) in as many ways as there are human beings in our world...


 
You'd think that this construction would be somewhere in my library of grammar works and on the internet....can you provide a link to a site where the usage is explained..?

Does it only work for a limited range of verbs? What about reflexive verbs or the so called "etre" verbs....

The tense is illogical in the extreme and impossible in English and the rendering above is by no means universal.

Il commence _à _etre venu
je commence _à_ etre parti
or  elle commence _à_ s'etre vue.....


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## Cath.S.

timboleicester said:


> You'd think that this construction would be somewhere in my library of grammar works and on the internet....can you provide a link to a site where the usage is explained..?
> 
> Does it only work for a limited range of verbs? What about reflexive verbs or the so called "etre" verbs....
> 
> The tense is illogical in the extreme and impossible in English and the rendering above is by no means universal.
> 
> Il commence _à _*ê*tre venu
> je commence _à_ *ê*tre parti
> or  elle commence _à_ s'*ê*tre vue.....


I still think the register is colloquial (imho).
_Je commence à être venu_ _souvent dans ce bar_
_je commence à être parti, _with no context would mean to me _you are getting drunk._ 
With _se voir_, the construction sounds fine too, as in _je commence à m'être vue un peu trop souvent dans le miroir._


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## Transfer_02

just googling:

_...je commence à avoir vu trop de Bouddhas_

I'm starting to think I've seen too many Buddhas.
It's (I'm) getting to the point where I've seen too many Buddhas.

 .._.on commence à avoir terminé de manger. On discute, on plaisante, l'__ambiance est chouette et 

_...we are starting to finish eating our meal. We are chatting, joking...

Interestingly, most of the google hits I found were blogs or bulletin boards ie: people "talking to themselves" or "thinking out loud" using the first person so, not necessarily colloquial language but definitely spoken French rather than prose.


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## Cath.S.

One more Buddha for the road 

I should maybe have written _conversational_ or _spoken_ instead of _colloquial_, but in my mind those concepts are very close.


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## timboleicester

Cath.S. said:


> One more Buddha for the road
> 
> I should maybe have written _conversational_ or _spoken_ instead of _colloquial_, but in my mind those concepts are very close.


 
Oh now wait a darned minute there, you can't possibly claim that a sentence like.... 

"Je commence a avoir acquis......"  and the numerous examples above are  only spoken (or conversational) do I sense shifting sands?


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## Cath.S.

Même si _acquérir_ est un verbe censément élégant, la tournure, elle, ne l'est pas tellement. Selon moi.


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## timboleicester

jann said:


> I like Mgarizona's suggestions. The expression "getting to the point where..." was the first to come to my mind. It's a bit colloquial, and fits nicely with the humor of the original idea. Including "starting to get to the point" reinforces the spoken aspect. (Many usage examples here...)
> 
> _--> I'm starting to get to the point where I've made a lot of mistakes._
> 
> (I'm getting to the point where I've made a lot of mistakes.)


 

Either one has made too many mistakes or one hasn't. There is no "point" at which this happens however, at least not one that can be identified therefore not only are the examples given above illogical but highly ungrammatical...in my view this amounts the the same thing.

I am going to start a new thread on this to widen the discussion as I have now put it to 10 different native French people and they all to a man (woman) express some doubt to this contrution's very existence and I cannot account for this hesitation as, as has been pointed out, the francophone's on this thread insist that it is correct...however there is some debate as to whether this is colloquial, informal or regional or otherwise.


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## mgarizona

timboleicester said:


> Either one has made too many mistakes or one hasn't. There is no "point" at which this happens however, at least not one that can be identified therefore not only are the examples given above illogical but highly ungrammatical...in my view this amounts the the same thing.



Sorry to be blunt, but what a blatantly absurd notion. Of course there is a "point." Scales tip. Straws break camels' backs. There is always a point at which something shifts from being acceptable to being "too much." From being "some" to being "a lot." To define that point is irksome, surely. To deny its existence, mere sophistry.

That being said, personally I prefer the other construction I suggested:

"The errors that I've made have started to add up."

If that sentence is meaningless to you then I'm sorry but you don't speak English.


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## timboleicester

mgarizona said:


> Sorry to be blunt, but what a blatantly absurd notion. Of course there is a "point." Scales tip. Straws break camels' backs. There is always a point at which something shifts from being acceptable to being "too much." From being "some" to being "a lot." To define that point is irksome, surely. To deny its existence, mere sophistry.


 
OK then allow me some latitude....if the next mouthful is too much what about the next half mouthful? and so on an so forth...the point does not exist as it is a matter of opinion and speculation and therefore cannot be pinpointed in a grammatical structure of the type we have at hand. Be as blunt as you like but please back up the bluntness with reason. The scales tipping again is a purely mechanical idea...the notion of not having eaten too much and having eaten too much is much less precise and not subject to your concrete "scales" notion.



mgarizona said:


> Sorry to be blunt, but what a blatantly absurd notion. Of course there is a "point." Scales tip. Straws break camels' backs. There is always a point at which something shifts from being acceptable to being "too much." From being "some" to being "a lot." To define that point is irksome, surely. To deny its existence, mere sophistry.
> 
> That being said, personally I prefer the other construction I suggested:
> 
> "The errors that I've made have started to add up."
> 
> If that sentence is meaningless to you then I'm sorry but you don't speak English.


 

I am sorry but you are now being rude. I do speak English being a native of the UK. I have never offered an opinion on the sentence above and this in any case is not a true rendition of the original poster's sentence. But while we are on the subject the sentence you cite is not logical and does not follow the logical time sequence..it would be much better rendered "[........are starting to add up. This at least has the quality of being logical in a time sequence. Although c'est bonnet blanc, blanc bonnet in my view.


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## mgarizona

To yr first post: Of course the scale notion still applies to matters of eating. One can have eaten almost enough, enough, a bite too much, 10 bites too much, etc. You keep mistaking the fact that you are blind to a fact with the notion that the fact is invalid. 

Absurdly, Beckett comes to mind: "_Voilà l'homme tout entier, s'en prenant à sa chaussure alors que c'est son pied le coupable._"

To yr second: I don't see how an English-speaker who understands what it means when a sentence begins with the word 'if' can take offense here, but ok.

Actually looking back a page I see that I had originally suggested "are starting to" ... on second thought(s)--- do want to make this easy on you--- I now like "have started" better but either seems fine. And I think you're entirely wrong about well it 'renders' the original. (Actually I'm certain you are, but one must pull punches.)

You talk a lot about things being 'not logical' but it remains that the sentence seems comprehensible to everyone but you. Which is more logical, that we're all daft? Or that you are having some oddly entrenched lapse of understanding?


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## timboleicester

mgarizona said:


> To yr first post: Of course the scale notion still applies to matters of eating. One can have eaten almost enough, enough, a bite too much, 10 bites too much, etc. You keep mistaking the fact that you are blind to a fact with the notion that the fact is invalid.
> 
> Absurdly, Beckett comes to mind: "_Voilà l'homme tout entier, s'en prenant à sa chaussure alors que c'est son pied le coupable._"
> 
> To yr second: I don't see how an English-speaker who understands what it means when a sentence begins with the word 'if' can take offense here, but ok.
> 
> Actually looking back a page I see that I had originally suggested "are starting to" ... on second thought(s)--- do want to make this easy on you--- I now like "have started" better but either seems fine. And I think you're entirely wrong about well it 'renders' the original. (Actually I'm certain you are, but one must pull punches.)
> 
> You talk a lot about things being 'not logical' but it remains that the sentence seems comprehensible to everyone but you. Which is more logical, that we're all daft? Or that you are having some oddly entrenched lapse of understanding?


 
Oh I see what matters to you  is how many people you get to agree with you and this then determines the truth of the matter....As I have said I am not sure that you have made your point. Some in this thread have implied that the contrution is "spoken and colloquial" this implies that it is not standard French. I, after my initial skepticism, asked what the register of such a contraction was and I have to say opinion has been divided. I have now spoken to a number of actual French people and they all, without exception, have expressed some doubt as to whether it is correct...I am sorry but shall I be as rude to them as you have been to me by accusing them not speaking French?


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## pointvirgule

[...]

How about, _It's starting to look like I've made too many mistakes_?


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## Nicomon

pointvirgule said:


> How about, _It's starting to look like I've made too many mistakes_?


  My non native ears really like this one.


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## timboleicester

Nicomon said:


> My non native ears really like this one.


 

There is nothing wrong with this sentence...... I agree. How would you say that in French ....?


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## Cath.S.

mgarizona said:
			
		

> "The errors that I've made have started to add up."


MgAz's translation renders well the original sentence, according to this actual French person.


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## mgarizona

timboleicester said:


> Oh I see what matters to you  is how many people you get to agree with you and this then determines the truth of the matter....As I have said I am not sure that you have made your point. Some in this thread have implied that the contrution is "spoken and colloquial" this implies that it is not standard French. I, after my initial skepticism, asked what the register of such a contraction was and I have to say opinion has been divided. I have now spoken to a number of actual French people and they all, without exception, have expressed some doubt as to whether it is correct...I am sorry but shall I be as rude to them as you have been to me by accusing them not speaking French?



Shall I be as pompous as you are and say, "Oh I see what matters to you is the enshrined opinion of incapable-of-thinking-for-themselves Port-Royal Grammarians." _Mais qu'en diraient les assis_!? What exactly to you mean by 'correct'? Alcide d'Orbigny was not a grammarian, yet his _tournure _survives, expresses a readily comprehensible concept and does so in a charmingly off-kilter manner. One needn't be a die-hard Chomsky-ite to wonder what else you could possibly require? And why?

_Commence-je à en avoir trop dit?_ Just think of him as the Yogi Berra of 19th-century naturalists.


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## hampton.mc

Cath.S. said:


> MgAz's translation renders well the original sentence, according to this actual French person.



Je suis d'accord et je crois que ce fil _commence à avoir fait_ son temps !!!


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## Jasmine tea

timboleicester said:


> You'd think that this construction would be somewhere in my library of grammar works and on the internet....can you provide a link to a site where the usage is explained..?
> 
> Does it only work for a limited range of verbs? What about reflexive verbs or the so called "etre" verbs....


 
I just went through some quick searches on the internet to see if there was an answer to be found... on a grammatical explanation basis.

The only interesting thing I have found so far is that 
- commencer à + infinitif (example "je commence à avoir faim) expresses a "futur immédiat".
- commencer à + infinitif + participe passé expresses a "futur en cours de réalisation".
However it is said that it does not necessarily work with all verbs, but there are no further details given. It is said as well that for example "je commence peu à peu à avoir faim" expresses exactly in the same way a "futur en cours de réalisation".

These answers to my quick search are not, of course, totally satisfying. I am going to try to get some better answers by submitting this issue to people I highly respect and admire for their knowledge and understanding of French.

Just a quick word to say I am very sorry to see this thread got into some type of misunderstanding between some of us. Obviously, on this forum we all share the same respect of languages and wish to understand and use each language in the best and most correct way. (sorry for my awkawrd English here!). And probably we all are a bit of "des intellos repentis"(c.f. recent thread on this expression)!!!!


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## Jasmine tea

As promised, I open this thread once more to give the further information I got on this wording "je commence à avoir..." I paste here the answer received by a beautiful French speaker (reader & writer but who never uses a computer, so sorry for d'éventuelles coquilles!)...

D'après moi (qui n'ai pas de connaissance particulière en grammaire ) , dans la pratique usuelle de la langue , la formule est disssonante ,disharmonieuse ,on dirait plutôt "j'ai déjà fait beaucoup d'erreurs"ou simplement "j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs"    ,    mais on dit aussi  -  pour assumer cette espèce d'oxymore - " je commence à en avoir assez" ou "je commence à m'épuiser ? 
 Dans le contexte , qui semble être celui d'une réflexion , d'un retour sur soi , la formule me parait parfaitement acceptable , révélant quelque-chose d'hésitant , du doute relevant bien de la mélancolie
...ce serait bien une phrase "littéraire"  :  ..J'imagine un "loubard" qui dirait :"je commence à avoir fait beaucoup de conneries " , un autre qui dirait " j' ai fait beaucoup de conneries ".Le 1er est plus émouvant , plus réfléchi.


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## timboleicester

Jasmine tea said:


> As promised, I open this thread once more to give the further information I got on this wording "je commence à avoir..." I paste here the answer received by a beautiful French speaker (reader & writer but who never uses a computer, so sorry for d'éventuelles coquilles!)...
> 
> D'après moi (qui n'ai pas de connaissance particulière en grammaire ) , dans la pratique usuelle de la langue , la formule est disssonante ,disharmonieuse ,on dirait plutôt "j'ai déjà fait beaucoup d'erreurs"ou simplement "j'ai fait beaucoup d'erreurs" , mais on dit aussi - pour assumer cette espèce d'oxymore - " je commence à en avoir assez" ou "je commence à m'épuiser ?
> Dans le contexte , qui semble être celui d'une réflexion , d'un retour sur soi , la formule me parait parfaitement acceptable , révélant quelque-chose d'hésitant , du doute relevant bien de la mélancolie
> ...ce serait bien une phrase "littéraire" : ..J'imagine un "loubard" qui dirait :"je commence à avoir fait beaucoup de conneries " , un autre qui dirait " j' ai fait beaucoup de conneries ".Le 1er est plus émouvant , plus réfléchi.


 
Thanks for taking the time, I too have sought the opinion of my muse in all matters related to French and she tells me that given the context the original quote is meant to be "comical" as it is something that would not be said in the normal course of events and possibly linked to the matter at hand... IE making mistakes. My dearest Chantal went on to remind me of a phrase used by a small lad in a film we both love ( I forget the name) the lad says... <si j'aurais su je n aurai pas venu> which I think you will agree is not correct but very funny!

I have nowhere suggested that in order for something to be translated then it has to be correct but what I certainly do maintain is that it shouldn't be corrected into correct grammatical English as you would lose the comic effect.

Again, thank you for your time and interest. I agree with the other sentiments that you alluded to.

Elle a ajouté que parmi les exemples cités < je commence à avoir trop bu> passe à la limite mais selon elle, pas <je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs> une phrase qui la choque un peu. Ce qui me fait penser que l'auteur essaye de créer un effet comique.


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## Jasmine tea

timboleicester said:


> I have nowhere suggested that in order for something to be translated then it has to be correct but what I certainly do maintain is that it shouldn't be corrected into correct grammatical English as you would lose the comic effect.


 
I understand your point now, Timboleicester.
And I think I see the idea of a comic effect. (Obviously there is an "effet...."!)

How would you translate it to English, here?


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## timboleicester

Jasmine tea said:


> I understand your point now, Timboleicester.
> And I think I see the idea of a comic effect. (Obviously there is an "effet...."!)
> 
> How would you translate it to English, here?


 
Do you mean the original post? If so then maybe something like < I am starting to have maked (sic) lots of mistakes>


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## hampton.mc

semperredux said:


> I found this quote in the following context:
> 
> Il aimait à citer et à s'approprier le mot *mélancolique* d'A. d'Orbigny sur la fin de sa carrière : « Je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs.» Aucun savant peut-être n'en commit pourtant moins que lui.





Jasmine tea said:


> Dans le contexte , qui semble être celui d*'une réflexion , d'un retour sur soi* , la formule me parait parfaitement acceptable , *révélant quelque-chose d'hésitant , du doute relevant bien de la mélancolie*
> ...ce serait bien une phrase "littéraire"  :  ..J'imagine un "loubard" qui dirait :"je commence à avoir fait beaucoup de conneries " , un autre qui dirait " j' ai fait beaucoup de conneries ".Le 1er est *plus émouvant , plus réfléchi*.



Un effet comique ???
Si la phrase comportait une faute de français, de grammaire ou de construction, j'arriverais peut-être à comprendre votre acharnement à essayer de trouver un quelconque côté "comique"...



timboleicester said:


> Do you mean the original post? If so then maybe something like < I am starting to have maked (sic) lots of mistakes>



Ce serait à mon avis une erreur de traduire cette phrase avec une faute qui n'existe pas dans la phrase en français.


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## timboleicester

hampton.mc said:


> Un effet comique ???
> Si la phrase comprenait une faute de français, de grammaire ou de construction, j'arriverais peut-être à comprendre votre *acharnement* à essayer de trouver un quelconque côté "comique"...
> 
> 
> 
> Ce serait à mon avis une erreur de traduire cette phrase avec une faute qui n'existe pas dans la phrase en français.


 
Je ne fais que  partager avec vous le fruit de mes recherches....voici une opinion parmi d'autres...permettez moi de suivre les conseils de ceux en qui j'ai confiance...il n'y a rien dans cela qui peut être characterisé  d' "acharnement"


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## LV4-26

hampton.mc said:


> [...]
> Ce serait à mon avis une erreur de traduire cette phrase avec une faute qui n'existe pas dans la phrase en français.


Deux, en fait. Ou plutôt, une faute et une tournure pour le moins inhabituelle.
- _maked_
- _starting_ + infinitif passé qui, si j'en crois mes propres connaissances et ce que j'ai lu des autres anglophones de ce fil, est beaucoup moins acceptable que la construction française équivalente.

Personnellement, _je commence à avoir fait beaucoup d'erreurs_ ne me fait même pas lever un sourcil. 
D'un autre côté, j'ai bien compris que, pour certains autres -- telle l'amie francophone de timboleicester --, cette phrase contenait nécessairement une incorrection délibérée.
Autrement dit, un partout, la balle au centre.


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## timboleicester

Cath.S. said:


> Ceci n'est pas une traduction, mais une caricature.
> 
> Je me demande vraiment pourquoi je continue à suivre ce fil, où, finalement, depuis le début, nous nous escrimons à tenter de convaincre _une minuscule minorité _de la validité d'une expression de notre propre langue.


 
Well you are not the only one wondering. It's a shame you can't learn to express your opinion without the attitude. There is a debate to be had and all you seem to do is repeat that the contruction is, well let's see... littéraire...colloquial....s'entend frequemment.......appartient au language des loubards...

I have now searched the internet for examples of this structure and have found hardly any and mostly to do with <<...... avoir fait le tour...>>

I have asked the opinion of other no less real users of your language and they tell me that the OP example is not a possible contruction in their opinion. You have a contrary one...so be it.


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## Jasmine tea

timboleicester said:


> Do you mean the original post? If so then maybe something like < I am starting to have maked (sic) lots of mistakes>


 
Thank you Timboleicester for this translation, I had asked you for.

My initial understanding of this wording was to see in it melancholy and humility. And in my opinion it showed a nice litterary effect. I am happy through your understanding (different from mine) I learned to read in it a different effect : a comic one. This is why I was interested to see how you would render that effect in English.

I do not have anymore a "one and only" understanding of this "je commence à avoir fait..." (which I must confess I DO use sometimes in my writings!). It will help me have an open-minded reading of sentences I would have otherwise been sure could be understood only in ONE way.
(sorry for my awkward English).

Thanks to all for your further posts. Sorry if my re-opening this thread bothered you.


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## timboleicester

Jasmine tea said:


> Thank you Timboleicester for this translation, I had asked you for.
> 
> My initial understanding of this wording was to see in it melancholy and humility. And in my opinion it showed a nice litterary effect. I am happy through your understanding (different from mine) I learned to read in it a different effect : a comic one. This is why I was interested to see how you would render that effect in English.
> 
> I do not have anymore a "one and only" understanding of this "je commence à avoir fait..." (which I must confess I DO use sometimes in my writings!). It will help me have an open-minded reading of sentences I would have otherwise been sure could be understood only in ONE way.
> (sorry for my awkward English).
> 
> Thanks to all for your further posts. Sorry if my re-opening this thread bothered you.


 

I notice that some are using the reason to delete a post as a vehicle to express their scorn. It hasn't bothered me at all you opening the thread again Jasmin. I enjoy other points of view as I am trying to learn. I asked my French friend Mathieu late last night via face book and this is his reply

<<Who wrote this sentence? It sounds understandable but there seems to be a small paradox... If you start something, then how could you mean that you have already started it? Problème de concordance des temps... Puisque 'commencer' est un départ, le passé fait plutôt bizarre... X>>

He describes the sentence as understandable but "bizarre" this gives me encouragement for rendering the sentence into an equally bizarre English. 
Although it is only my opinion of course. There is always a point to discussion.


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## Jasmine tea

timboleicester said:


> <<Who wrote this sentence? It sounds understandable but there seems to be *a small paradox*... If you start something, then how could you mean that you have already started it? Problème de concordance des temps... Puisque 'commencer' est un départ, le passé fait plutôt bizarre... X>>


 
I think this exctly what my friend was saying with her words "cette espèce d'oxymore". 
Actually I looked up the word oxymore. This is what it says : (reverso) "figure caractérisée par un assemblage de mots apparemment contradictoires ("un silence éloquent")"


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