# Deutsche(r) (pronunciation)



## April fool

Is there any difference between Deutsche and Deutscher? For example:

Sind Sie Deutscher?
Sind Sie Deutsche?


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## Moon boy

With regard to meaning, yes. Deutsche is feminine whereas Deutscher is masculine.
With regard to pronunciation, no. They are pronounced the same way, with a schwa at the end.


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## James Bates

Moon boy said:


> With regard to meaning, yes. Deutsche is feminine whereas Deutscher is masculine.
> With regard to pronunciation, no. They are pronounced the same way, with a schwa at the end.



They are pronounced differently. "Deutsche" has a schwa at the end but "Deutscher" has an "a" sound at the end, like the end of the word "etwa" (although the length of the "a" in "etwa" may be a bit longer).


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## Demiurg

Moon boy said:


> With regard to meaning, yes. Deutsche is feminine whereas Deutscher is masculine.
> With regard to pronunciation, no. They are pronounced the same way, with a schwa at the end.



Deutsch*er* is pronounced with an *a*-schwa, Deutsch*e* with an *e*-schwa.

crossed with James Bates


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## Asadullah

So you're saying that the "a" at the end of "etwa" is different from the vowel at the end of "Deutscher"? I thought they were pronounced the same way, just like the "er" in "oder" (meaning "or").


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## Demiurg

Asadullah said:


> So you're saying that the "a" at the end of "etwa" is different from the vowel at the end of "Deutscher"? I thought they were pronounced the same way, just like the "er" in "oder" (meaning "or").



Yes, it's 'ɐ' (near-open central vowel = a-schwa) vs. 'a' (open front unrounded vowel).

oder: [ˈoːdɐ], etwa: [ˈɛtva]


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## James Bates

I believe it is actually 'ɐ' (near-open central vowel) vs. 'ä' (Open central unrounded vowel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


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## Demiurg

James Bates said:


> I believe it is actually 'ɐ' (near-open central vowel) vs. 'ä' (Open central unrounded vowel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)



You're right.  There seem to be several symbols for this sound (open central unrounded vowel) and the symbol 'ä' doesn't make sense, at least in German.


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## ger4

April fool said:


> Is there any difference between Deutsche and Deutscher? For example:
> 
> Sind Sie Deutscher?
> Sind Sie Deutsche?





Moon boy said:


> With regard to meaning, yes. Deutsche is feminine whereas Deutscher is masculine.


Just an addition: _Sind Sie Deutsche?_ can be the plural form as well (both masculine and feminine).


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## Hocharabisch

Consider the last syllable of the following three words:

witwe
witwer
etwa

The first is clearly distinct from the other two, but the second and third are not actually all that different, if at all. It would be hard to detect if someone had accidentally said "Deutscha" instead of "Deutscher", in my opinion.
Just my two cents.


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## berndf

James Bates said:


> I believe it is actually 'ɐ' (near-open central vowel) vs. 'ä' (Open central unrounded vowel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Not all phoneticians actually accept that the distinction between [a] and [ä] really exists. Since there is no German vowel in between thr central [a] and [ɛ] there is also no need to consider this distinction and in German phonology people usually think in terms of a vowel triangle with only a single unrounded fully open vowel [a]. In addition since the symbol <ä> represents the vowel quality [ɛ], using the IPA symbol [ä] would be a source of endless confusion.

In principle, three qualites may be distinguished, that of the long a, the short a and the a-Schwa. The quality of the long a is comparatively easy to distinguish from that of the short a and that of the a-Schwa but the letter two are indeed not easy to separate, not even vor native speakers. I think they could both be adequately be represented by [ɐ]. The final <a> is short but it still has the quality of the long <a> in standard pronunciation.


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## Gwunderi

Holger2014 said:


> Just an addition: _Sind Sie Deutsche?_ can be the plural form as well (both masculine and feminine).



In this case you say: "Seid Ihr Deutsche?"
(for the plural form, both masculine and feminine, yes)


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## ger4

For learners this must be quite confusing so I'll just summarize some of the options:

_Bist du...?_ 
= singular, informal

_Seid ihr...?_ 
= plural, informal

_Sind Sie...?_ 
= singular, formal
= plural, formal

_Deutscher_
= singular, masculine

_Deutsche_
= singular, feminine
= plural, masculine
= plural, feminine


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## James Bates

Hocharabisch said:


> Consider the last syllable of the following three words:
> 
> witwe
> witwer
> etwa
> 
> The first is clearly distinct from the other two, but the second and third are not actually all that different, if at all. It would be hard to detect if someone had accidentally said "Deutscha" instead of "Deutscher", in my opinion.
> Just my two cents.



Could another native speaker confirm this?


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## Demiurg

The difference may be small, but it exists.  Take e.g. the pairs

klarer / Klara
Marter / Marta

The sound represented by 'a' is more open than the one represented by 'er'.


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## berndf

James Bapronunciatio128 said:
			
		

> Could another native speaker confirm this?


Depends on the register. In colloquial registers, the <a> of _etwa_ often has the quality of a short /a/ and is therefore difficult to distinguish from /ɐ/. In standard pronunciation, it has the quality of a long /a:/ but is nevertheless short because it appears in an unstressed syllable. This is still similar to /ɐ/ but sufficiently different to distinguish the sounds easily.


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## Frieder

Demiurg said:


> [...]
> klarer / Klara
> [...]
> The sound represented by 'a' is more open than the one represented by 'er'.



I tried this:

„Klarer geht's nicht.”
„Klara geht's nicht gut.”

Couldn't hear any difference in normal pronunciation. The difference is just a theoritical one but you can't distiguish the two without the word _gut_. An actor or an anchor would probably work out the difference because they were trained to articulate – I wasn't.


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## Hocharabisch

Frieder said:


> I tried this:
> 
> „Klarer geht's nicht.”
> „Klara geht's nicht gut.”
> 
> Couldn't hear any difference in normal pronunciation. The difference is just a theoritical one but you can't distiguish the two without the word _gut_. An actor or an anchor would probably work out the difference because they were trained to articulate – I wasn't.



That's exactly what I was saying: there is no audible difference between the last syllable of etwa and witwer.


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## Demiurg

Frieder said:


> I tried this:
> 
> „Klarer geht's nicht.”
> „Klara geht's nicht gut.”
> 
> Couldn't hear any difference in normal pronunciation.



So I guess it depends on who is speaking.  In my pronunciation, the final 'a' of "Klara" is slightly longer and more open than the 'er' of "klarer".

As Bernd explained:


berndf said:


> In standard pronunciation, it has the quality of a long /a:/ but is nevertheless short because it appears in an unstressed syllable. This is still similar to /ɐ/ but sufficiently different to distinguish the sounds easily.


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## dcx97

Hocharabisch said:


> Consider the last syllable of the following three words:
> 
> witwe
> witwer
> etwa
> 
> The first is clearly distinct from the other two, but the second and third are not actually all that different, if at all. It would be hard to detect if someone had accidentally said "Deutscha" instead of "Deutscher", in my opinion.
> Just my two cents.



In Hochdeutsch all three are theoretically pronounced distinctly. However, in practice I think many speakers mix them up, especially the last two.


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## berndf

dcx97 said:


> However, in practice I think many speakers mix them up, especially the last two.


The 2nd and 3rd: yes; the 1st and 2nd: no.


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## Kajjo

dcx97 said:


> However, in practice I think many speakers mix them up, especially the last two.


Only the last two. 1 and 2 are very clearly distinguished.


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## elroy

Here is a recording of me pronouncing the minimal triplet _Klara-klare-klarer_.  This was my first and only attempt.  Feedback appreciated!


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Here is a recording of me pronouncing the minimal triplet _Klara-klare-klarer_.  This was my first and only attempt.  Feedback appreciated!


1 & 2 are fine. 3 is for me also _Klara_: I hear it as a full and not as a reduced vowel and it should be a wee bit higher and a bit further back. But don't worry, this distinction (-_er_ vs. -_a_) is tricky for native speakers as well.

It is maybe a bit difficult in isolation. You could try to say it in full sentences, _like Klara geht spazieren_ and _Klarer geht es nicht_. It might be more natural then.


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## dcx97

If one of the native speakers could pronounce the these minimal pairs (or, as elroy put it, minimal triplets), I would be most grateful.


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## Frieder

Done.


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## Hutschi

Me too.
http://www.lyrik-netz.de/Klara.mp3


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## Kajjo

Frieder said:


> Done.


 Sehr gut!


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## berndf

Frieder said:


> Done.


Bei _klarer _hast Du aber etwas geschummelt. Du hast das _-er_ nicht vokalisiert, d.h. du hast [-ɛʁ] und nicht [-ɐ] gesagt. Das ist zwar vollkommen in Ordnung, hilft aber nicht bei der Differenzierung der Vokale, um die es hier geht.

Bei _Witwe_ und _Witwer _ist der [ə]-[ɐ] Kontrast aber schön zu hören. Den Endvokal von _Witwer_ und _etwa_ höre ich gleich. Wenn ich das Wort _etwa _nicht gekannt hätte, und Du hättest mir gesagt, es würde _*etwer_ geschrieben (ich weiß, es gibt ein Wort _etwer_, das etwas anders gesprochen wird), so hätte ich das geglaubt. Aber solche Verdunkelungsgefahren bestehen in der Praxis tatsächlich, nur eben nicht bei _etwa_, weil jeder das Wort kennt.


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## Hutschi

Hallo, sehr deutlich zu hören ist das "a"-Schwa in Nenas "Wund*er* geschehn". (Ich höre es als "Wund[ɐ] geschehn ...") 

Ich selbst kann es kaum aussprechen, nur in einem meiner Beispiele habe ich es geschafft, aber es klingt bei mir unnatürlich.


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## dcx97

Thanks for the recordings!


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