# Women-only



## jorge_val_ribera

Hello!

Today I read this article and found out that there are women-only wagons in trains in Japan in order to stop harassment. However, the article says that this practice is spreading to other places such as women-only restaurants and recreational places. 

What do you think about this?

EDIT: What I mean is: What do you think about this practice spreading to places like restaurants and recreational places?


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## Vanda

We have this here in Rio de Janeiro since April. If I lived there I 'd use, for sure, those ones. I've heard terrible stories about crowded wagons and harassment. 
Funny, that the identification of those wagons is a pink stripe in the external part of the 
metro/subway wagon.

edit: I forgot saying that women are not obliged to go there. They can choose which one they prefer.


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## ireney

I think that's the wrong way to go about solving the harassment issue. If the problem is  so big I can see why such a measure is thought as necessary but it's most definitely not a solution.

P.S. It's not a big issue here but I had to give a slap or two in my life and they work wonders with guys who don't understand by reason or any other means. In general however, you just have to make it known that that person harasses you and you can then sit back and enjoy the way the other men are going to deal with him. Slapping is just nerves coming forth. The public ridicule and ostracising that comes from his fellow men is much, much better (and yes I have positively negative feelings about guys who act this way).


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## la reine victoria

Years ago, our trains used to have just one compartment (which sat 6) for women only. I used to use this facility when travelling alone as we have had many attacks on women in trains (including murders).

Nowadays, all our train carriages are fully open and you can walk the whole length of the train. I feel much safer.

In these days of transvestites what's to say that you won't find one in a "women-only" place?  Some of them are so convincing, it's hard to tell they are men. Some may have evil intentions towards women since they aren't all gay, so I don't see the point.




LRV


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## Vanda

> you just have to make it known that that person harasses you and you can then sit back and enjoy the way the other men are going to deal with him.


 
Ireney we'd "adore" it if we had places to sit back in here. In Rio or São Paulo (I'll say about those, cause I have already used trains there) the trains are so crowded - and buses - during rush hours that when you try to move your foot to rest it a little you'll never find another place to put it.  I mean it! So, traveling among women only would save you much stress and anger in situations most women feel impotent to deal with!


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## ireney

Oh I know about overcrowded trains. In this case you just use your elbow or say out loud something. Hand removed or mouth shut and then you just have to wait till the next train stop for the show. Honestly, it's a matter of how the society feels about such men. If it just sits and does nothing harassment goes on and gets worse. Greek men are not perfect but I have this to say about them: They consider harassing a woman "unmanly" and they act upon their belief (older men are not very civilized about it I'm afraid. Walking aids (esp old, stout canes) seem to be painful when used on a younger's man head.


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## jorge_val_ribera

I agree with the women-only wagon, actually. What I really wanted to discuss (but I didn't make it clear in my original post, sorry. I will edit so it becomes clear) is that this practice is spreading to other places such as restaurants and cinemas, where women aren't as exposed to harassment (at least in my opinion).


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## Vanda

The problem is huge around here. It's a pity this article is only in Pt, but it states that 87% (São Paulo) claim that this is the worst problem they have to face. One of the reasons given to not react is that they can't identify the aggressor and when he is identified he says that the reason is the overcrowded wagon. There's a major problem in this situation:many women never complain to the police cause they feel embarrassed and worse than that is when they are accused of provoking the agression.  
The number of passengers can go to* 8,2 *per square meter, internacional reference goes to 4, maybe to bearable six persons per square meter. 
Yes, the greatest problem still is the disrepectful treatment given to women by the aggressors, authorities and transport companies.

Edit: sorry Jorge, only now after posting this one, I saw your post above.


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## Cath.S.

I also think it's the wrong way to deal with it. 
Men who behave badly have just got to learn, and we've got to teach them. I think it is a terrible mistake to overprotect women, obnoxious men must be taught to control themselves, must it be the hard way, and women must be taught not to live in fear. I'm an old-school feminist I'm afraid.


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## Alxmrphi

A step back in the wrong direction...


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## serg79

Maybe they should also have men-only carriages for those who are paranoid about being accused of sexual harassment for looking in the general direction of a woman...


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## Alxmrphi

Very good point serg79, but the day the world gets to be in a state like that, I really am going to fly to Mars to get away from it, me and Branson alone if I have to.


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## serg79

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only man who's been "touched up" by a woman (or a group of enebriated women) on a train...and I don't mean in a jokey way... Maybe that's just a British thing (?), but I'm sure if I used Ireny's response of a slap or an elbow then I'd be looking at a jail sentence...
But yeah, there are obviously much more guys who partake in that kind of harassment, but I agree with ALEx that the separate carriages thing seems like a step in the wrong direction.


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## Cath.S.

> There's a major problem in this situation:many women never complain to the police


I just could not picture myself calling the police either if a guy touches my buttocks in the underground. I'm quite content with turning around to him and saying in a menacing tone
"Bon, ça suffit maintenant, ou je t'en colle une !"
It works, and that way I don't feel like a poor helpless victim, but like a normal person. This is what I've always tried to teach younger females. And also:


> Maybe they should also have men-only carriages for those who are paranoid about being accused of sexual harassment for looking in the general direction of a woman...


Looking at a woman is obviously not harassment ! But if it does turn to obvious haraassment: too insistent or embarrassingly long staring, there are lots of ways in which the woman can signal she's had enough, that she's not interested. Men are not aliens, we can talk, we can gesture, we can communicate!
But keeping the sexes separate can only lead to more awkwardness and wariness.


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## Heba

jorge_val_ribera said:


> I agree with the women-only wagon, actually. What I really wanted to discuss (but I didn't make it clear in my original post, sorry. I will edit so it becomes clear) is that this practice is spreading to other places such as restaurants and cinemas, where women aren't as exposed to harassment (at least in my opinion).


 
Trams in Alexandria have one wagon for women only
No ..this practice has not spread to any other place.


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## Etcetera

In Russia, we don't have in our trains wagons for women only, and I wish there were! 
I usually travel from Moscow to St. Petersburg by night trains, where each compartment sits 4. And when you buy a ticket to such a train, you never know who the other three passengers are before the trains leaves! I find it really awkward. 
At the same time, I don't enjoy travelling in the same compartment with women. They usually start to chat and want to know everything about everyone! But still I feel much safer when there are only women in the same compartment with me. 

But as for women only wagons in the underground, for example, - in my opinion, it's not a good solution of the problem of harassment. Women only restaurants are just odd.


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## maxiogee

This is a dreadful concept.

Women who have been assaulted have been accused, by their assailants, of dressing in such a way as to be "looking for it".
Will any woman who declines, for whatever reason, to travel in the women only section be seen as "fair game" because - knowing that she might be harassed - she has opted to travel in such a carriage?

Why cannot men accept that they do not have 'rights' to behave as disgracefully as they do? 

This carriage will become the Japanese equivalent of the niqab - these women are soooooo beautiful that for them to expose themselves to men is to incite such passion in men that they would be unable to resist their 'natural' urges! Oh come on! 
The veiling of women is a form of dominance and control, and so is the concept of this carriage!


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## heidita

I agree with maxi on this matter. 

I think it has much to do with the women's "fear" to speak out for themselves and the fear of not being believed, neither by their fellow travellers nor by their partners, telling them about the harassment.

I might tell you a story or two. 

There has been this kind of harassment in Spain some years ago. People would touch you in the tube and touch themselves, like masturbating inside their trousers, but at full sight of their fellow women travellers which I can tell you is very insulting and makes you extremely uncomfortable. I once just couldnt' take it any more and hit the man right in the face in the middle of the wagon. Many of the travellers though didn't believe my outburst claiming that this man was harassing me and I was accused of being hysterical.
And only two years ago a very similar episode happened to me in a waiting room of the social security (which sounds really incredible). A man was masturbating and I hit him right into the face. I am an aggressive person, as many of you have noticed bu now, but I just can't hold back when being harassed this way. And I was certainly not _asking for it_, looking rather horrible that day. I think these men just bloom in their wanting to make you feel uncomfortable. Some women left the seat before without doing or saying anything, feeling horrible I suppose and I was wondering why. So I hit him. I not only filed a complaint right there , being accused by the manager of being hysterical too, but told my husband. My husband, as many of you know, is not only a very good forer, without even being registered, but a wonderful husband. It was him who insisted to press charges, as this man also followed me out of the waiting room and following be by car I was able to write down the number plate. By the way, the police man, who took down the story, believed me immediately.

Here the important thing is not to allow others to harass you. One should "hit back", by pressing charges or getting somebody to help. I do not think an _only woman carriage_ is the solution.
In Spain and Germany such do not exist.


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## Vanda

For real I don't expect you guys who live in other countries than mine (I think there are a few like it in this matter) to understand what is being harassed in trains and buses in my country. Whenever you really undergo it in here, well, then we can discuss it again. I know that when I go to Europe, for example, I feel like being a dignified human being, a thing most of the time I don't feel like in my own country.
Now, extending this kind of measure to restaurants and places like that, where it is impossible to have *8,2 persons by square meter* is taking things overboard.


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## cubaMania

Moms and Dads teach your daughters (and your sons too):

NEVER let embarassment keep you from defending yourself from danger or sexual harrassment.

1. If you suspect you might be in danger do whatever is necessary to get away from the situation. Do not worry if people think you are strange, hysterical, or anything else, just do whatever it takes to get away.

2. If you are not in danger but are being harrassed, react at an appropriate level:
       A. If someone grabs your breast, slap the hand away and say very loudly: KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF ME!!
       B. If it is a less obvious harrassment, for instance a subtly uncomfortable touch in your workplace, say something like: 
"Hands off! I don't like to be touched." Don't shout or make an accusation, but say it loudly enough that other people can hear you clearly. That way the person (whether s/he intended offense or not) knows that you will always make a fuss if they touch you. Let THEM be embarrassed if they ever repeat the action.

Vanda, I know that in some countries such as Japan and Brasil the situation is much more difficult for women. You have my sympathy. I trust your society will eventually move toward more respect for women and that your daughters and granddaughters will have it easier than you do.


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## emma42

It sounds as if the problem is much worse in certain other countries than in England, which is not to say it does not happen here.  Heidita, I would have supported you had I been there.

I have to say that, although I don't think segregation is the long-term answer at all, sometimes I would welcome women-only compartments simply to have a rest from constantly having to watch out for myself.  I might feel differently if I lived in, say, Rio, from what I read; how much can women put up with whilst fighting for/waiting for attitudes to change?


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## heidita

emma42 said:


> It sounds as if the problem is much worse in certain other countries than in England, which is not to say it does not happen here. Heidita, I would have supported you had I been there.


I mist say that woman here are in this sense rather unsupportive. In my situation not one spoke out supporting me. Even though some had seen the guy and swooped seats. 
I have been in Brazil once, but not in Sao Paulo. I was not harassed there but this might have been just luck. If a native says so, no doubt it must be true.
Nevertheless I think the people should speak out for themselves and not let others harass them.
I must also say that it surprises me that the situation should be similar in Japan. The Japanese always strike me as rather calm and "educated".


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