# 向 - 走向前



## Skatinginbc

Note: The following discussion is split from this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2983382.


SuperXW said:


> 现代文中，我的感觉是“往”"向"极少能脱离其他动词单独成句，说明它们只是辅助作用；只要它们在句中依附其他动词，我就把它们归类为方位介词。
> 为什么“向前走”不同于“走向前”？我的理解并非词性变化，而是以下的中式思维形成了习惯：
> 向前走：“向前”在前做状语，此状态需加强调，因此这个“前方”更长远；
> 走向前：“向前”在后做补语，补语的重要性不如状语，因此只是较近的“前方”。
> 即使像你那样理解，一个讲“方向”一个讲“目的地”，也并不能证明讲“目的地”就是动词啊？
> 你若解释为动词，还有个问题，就是汉语很少两个单音节动词连用。"走向前"="walk arrive the front"? 感觉怪怪的。


1. "向"能脫離其他動詞單獨成句, for instance, 我叫你向前，你卻退後.
2. I think 走向前 is structurally parallel to 爬上山 and 跳下水.  There is no 介词 entry for 上 and 下 in the Chinese dictionaries that I have consulted.  上 in 爬上山 and 下 in 跳下水 are verbs in my opinion (as in 上車, 下車).


----------



## brofeelgood

To me, 我叫你向前 is incomplete without what follows. The last part  consummates the sentence by revealing what action was involved. So I  would consider 向 a preposition here.

我叫你向前,你卻退後. (走/跑/爬向前)
我叫你向前,你卻東張西望看別的. (向前看)
我叫你向前,你卻拐去左邊. (向前開/駛)

I would also say there's a different connotation implied by 上 in 上山 (*ascend* [verb] the mountain) and 上 in 爬上山 (climb [verb] *up* [prep.] the mountain [substantive]). The latter tallies with one of the definitions of 上 in 漢典: (25) 用在动词后。表示动作的趋向或结果等。如:爬上顶峰;登上飞机;考上大学;赶上队伍;种上庄稼. Wouldn't this be considered a preposition?


----------



## Skatinginbc

English: climb up the mountain = climb + up the mountain = verb + prepositional phrase.  
Insertion Test: He climbs two miles up the mountain. vs. *He climbs up two miles the mountain. 
Particle Shift Test for transitive phrasal verbs: *He climbs the  mountains up ==> Failed the test.  "Climb up" is not a phrasal verb.    
Question Test: Where do you want to climb? Up the mountain.    

 Chinese: 爬上山 = 爬上 + 山 = verb + object.
Insertion Test: 爬上了山 193,000 google results > *爬了上山 24,000 google results
Question test: 你想爬到哪兒? 山上 (not 上山).

Chinese: 走向前方 = 走向 + 前方 = verb + object.
Insertion Test: 走向了前方 > *走了向前方 
Question Test: 你想走到哪兒? 前方 (not 向前方).


----------



## brofeelgood

Absolutely! 

In cases of *prepositional phrasal verbs*,
- He's looking after her. 
- He's looking her after. 

- I ran into Bob last night. 
- I ran Bob last night into. 

But "look after" and "run into" are considered phrasal verbs, and to which I'm equating "climb up".

In the question tests, there is a 到, which introduces another twist, as 到 itself is, in my opinion, also a preposition and provides a similar function to 上. It's ok to say 我爬到了山顶 or 我爬上了山顶, but definitely not 我爬到上了山顶 or 我爬上到了山顶.


----------



## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> But "look after" and "run into" are  considered phrasal verbs, and to which I'm equating "climb up".


The  meaning of "look" plus that of "after" (i.e., the meanings of the  individual parts in isolation) has nothing to do with the meaning of  "look after" (taking care of).  In contrast, the meaning of "climb up"  is compositional (i.e., can be recovered from the individuals parts) and  therefore it is not a phrasal verb. 


brofeelgood said:


> In the question tests...


Please  ignore my question tests.  They do not make sense.  I just came home  and planned to delete them, but you have replied to my post.  Too late.   Sorry, my bad. 


brofeelgood said:


> there's a different connotation implied by 上 in 上山 (*ascend* [verb] the mountain) and 上 in 爬上山 (climb [verb] *up*  [prep.] the mountain [substantive]).


"Ascend" means "go *up*" or "rise".   上(床睡覺) "_get *on*_ (the bed to sleep)" = 到床上睡覺, 上(飛機) "_get on_ (the plane)" = 到飛機上, 上山 "_get on_ (the mountain)"= 到山上 (e.g., 上山砍柴 = 到山上砍柴; 上山入夥 = 到山上作強盜).
爬 "_climb_" + 上(山) "_get on_ (the mountain)" = 爬 + 到(山)上 = 爬到(山)上 
 爬上 + object = 爬到(object)上


----------



## brofeelgood

"stand up", "go up", "get up", "mount up", "rise up", "jack up", "zip up" etc fall into the same category as "climb up". These verbs all suggest a motion of some sort, and the "up" reinforces it by providing a direction. This is by definition a directional preposition.

Just like:
- climb up a tree
- climb down a ladder
- climb towards the summit
- climb into bed
- climb across the web
- climb along the wall
- climb onto the roof
- climb out of the manhole

"down", "into", "across", "onto" etc are also such prepositions. In English and German, at least. And it was this similarity in their application in Chinese that formed the basis for my naming 上 a preposition.


----------



## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> "stand up", "go up", "get up", "mount up",  "rise up", "jack up", "zip up" etc fall into the same category as "climb  up". These verbs all suggest a motion of some sort, and the* "up" reinforces it by providing a direction*. *This is by definition a directional preposition*.


He stood up and sat down. ==> "up" and "down" are adverbs. 
Eventually he climbed up. ==> "up" is an adverb. 


brofeelgood said:


> And  it was this similarity in their application in Chinese that formed the  basis for my naming 上 a preposition.


Well, someone on the other side of the coin may say: And it is this  superficial similarity that leads to overapplication and misapplication  of English grammar--which has been taught to every school kid in China  and has formed the basis for a deformative wholesale reanalysis of the Chinese  syntax.  Of course, my position is not that extreme.  I think from the  perspective of cross-linguistic typology it is a natural development  from an allative verb to a directional preposition.  上 is in the process  of it (Note:the "preposition-like" function you quoted from 漢典(25)  用在动词后表示动作的趋向或结果等 is listed under the "VERB" category, not "preposition".  用在动词后 does not imply it cannot be a verb itself. Serial  verb construction is common in Chinese). And 向 is in the more advanced stage  in terms of grammaticalization.

殭屍爬上車了 (or 鬼子爬上山了)!  大家快逃! ==> I think the emphasis is more on 到(車上)了 or 到(山上)了 than on 往上.


----------



## brofeelgood

Skatinginbc said:


> He stood up and sat down. ==> "up" and "down" are adverbs.
> Eventually he climbed up. ==> "up" is an adverb.



Ok, some bad examples from me.  But not if it's used together with a substantive like "He went up the ladder", "They sailed up the river". These are definitely prepositions.



Skatinginbc said:


> Well, someone on the other side of the coin may say: And it is this  superficial similarity that leads to overapplication and misapplication  of English grammar--which has been taught to every school kid in China  and has formed the basis for a deformative wholesale reanalysis of the Chinese  syntax.  Of course, my position is not that extreme.  I think from the  perspective of cross-linguistic typology it is a natural development  from an allative verb to a directional preposition.  上 is in the process  of it (Note:the "preposition-like" function you quoted from 漢典(25)  用在动词后表示动作的趋向或结果等 is listed under the "VERB" category, not "preposition".  用在动词后 does not imply it cannot be a verb itself. Verb serial  construction is common in Chinese). And 向 is in the more advanced stage  in terms of grammaticalization.
> 
> 殭屍爬上車了 (or 鬼子爬上山了)!  大家快逃! ==> I think the emphasis is more on 到(車上)了 or 到(山上)了 than on 往上.



Hmm, the way I see it, *表示动作的趋向或结果* doesn't qualify 上 as a verb either. And now that I've given more thought to it, this definition (25) seems to indicate a successful completion of the aforesaid action.

But I still see such words (上下进 etc) functioning as prepositions in phrases like 他跳上桌子, 他跳下楼, 他跳进火坑. I can't deny the evidence of over/misapplication of foreign grammar on Chinese, but in my opinion the definition of prepositions and their usage isn't exactly a profound topic that's open for debate in any language, even Chinese.


----------



## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> in my opinion the definition of prepositions and their usage isn't exactly a profound topic that's open for debate in any language, even Chinese.


Similarly, we may also say "the definitions of adjectives and verbs aren't exactly a profound topic that's open for debate", but when they are applied to Chinese, we discover that there isn't really a clear-up distinction between the two.  
Motion verbs that connote "arrival" are subject to grammaicalizaton (i.e., a process of language change by which words  representing actions (verbs) transform to  become grammatical markers (prepositions)).  要寄往美国 = 要寄到美国去 = 要寄去美国 = 要寄到美国 = 要寄至美国 = 要寄達美国.  往, 到, 去, 至, 達 all behave somewhat like a preposition (corresponding to English "to" as in "send to").  Should we qualify 達 as a preposition simply because it corresponds to English "to"?


----------



## brofeelgood

Skatinginbc said:


> Similarly, we may also say "the definitions of adjectives and verbs aren't exactly a profound topic that's open for debate", but when they are applied to Chinese, we discover that there isn't really a clear-up distinction between the two.
> 
> Motion verbs that connote "arrival" are subject to grammaicalizaton (i.e., a process of language change by which words  representing actions (verbs) transform to  become grammatical markers (prepositions)).  要寄往美国 = 要寄到美国去 = 要寄去美国 = 要寄到美国 = 要寄至美国 = 要寄達美国.  往, 到, 去, 至, 達 all behave somewhat like a preposition (corresponding to English "to" as in "send to").  Should we qualify 達 as a preposition simply because it corresponds to English "to"?



Unfortunately, I don't know how to answer you, because I don't hold 寄往,寄去,寄达 etc to be equivalents. The fact is 寄达 is a complex predicate that encapsulates an additional notion of "reach", which incidentally is a prepositional verb in English.

- Make sure this letter gets sent to him.
- Make sure this letter reaches him.

Same idea, but one of them does it without a preposition. 

But we're digressing. My original point was to say 上 can exist both as a verb and a preposition. Sure, it's a verb in 他上山了, but it functions more like a preposition than a compound verb in 他爬上山了.


----------



## Skatinginbc

brofeelgood said:


> 上 can exist both as a verb and a preposition. Sure, it's a verb in 他上山了, but it functions more like a preposition than a compound verb in 他爬上山了.


OK, let's say 爬上 is not a double verb construction in which the verbal suffix (second verb 上) indicates the direction or result of the first action 爬 (that is, 上 is either a resultative complement 結果補語 or a directional complement 趨向補語).  Even so, should we call it a preposition?  Taiwan 國語辭典 classifies the 下 in 打下基礎 "put down the foundation" and 立下決心 "make up one's mind" as an ADVERB, and defines it as 表示動作完成或結束.  I have no idea why it is considered an adverb, but it surely reflects the reluctance of the Chinese dictionary to call it a "preposition".  
Or should we call it a coverb?


Skatinginbc said:


> 2. I think 走向前 is structurally parallel to 爬上山


I may be wrong.  They are probably not parallel in structure. 
爬上山 ==> 爬得上山, 爬不上山 
走向前 ==> *走得向前, *走不向前


brofeelgood said:


> I don't hold 寄往,寄去,寄达 etc to be equivalents.


You are right.  They may be different in structure.
寄到美国 ==> 寄得到美国, 寄不到美国 
寄去美国 ==> 寄得去美国?, 寄不去美国? 
寄往美国 ==> *寄得往美国, *寄不往美国 
寄达美国 ==> *寄得达美国, *寄不达美国


----------



## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> He stood up and sat down. ==> "up" and "down" are adverbs.
> Eventually he climbed up. ==> "up" is an adverb.
> 
> Well, someone on the other side of the coin may say: And it is this  superficial similarity that leads to overapplication and misapplication  of English grammar--which has been taught to every school kid in China  and has formed the basis for a deformative wholesale reanalysis of the Chinese  syntax.  Of course, my position is not that extreme.  I think from the  perspective of cross-linguistic typology it is a natural development  from an allative verb to a directional preposition.  上 is in the process  of it (Note:the "preposition-like" function you quoted from 漢典(25)  用在动词后表示动作的趋向或结果等 is listed under the "VERB" category, not "preposition".  用在动词后 does not imply it cannot be a verb itself. Serial  verb construction is common in Chinese). And 向 is in the more advanced stage  in terms of grammaticalization.


我一直搞不清英语介词的定义，我记得有个native speaker跟我吐槽说某个词语不是介词，但我以为是介词，记不清了，似乎和中文概念有偏差。
中文教育中，一个词通常有一个“默认”的词性，而其他词性是延伸出来的，给人比较固定的感觉。
所以你如果不说，我都想不到stood up and sat down中那两个是adverbs...


----------



## brofeelgood

Skatinginbc said:


> OK, let's say 爬上 is not a double verb construction in which the verbal suffix (second verb 上) indicates the direction or result of the first action 爬 (that is, 上 is either a resultative complement 結果補語 or a directional complement 趨向補語). Even so, should we call it a preposition? Taiwan 國語辭典 classifies the 下 in 打下基礎 "put down the foundation" and 立下決心 "make up one's mind" as an ADVERB, and defines it as 表示動作完成或結束. I have no idea why it is considered an adverb, but it surely reflects the reluctance of the Chinese dictionary to call it a "preposition".
> Or should we call it a coverb?



That's as good a name as any I've ever come across. 

Anyway, I'm guessing "make up one's mind" doesn't have a positional element attached, as opposed to, say, "stick it up one's arse"?



SuperXW said:


> 我一直搞不清英语介词的定义，我记得有个native speaker跟我吐槽说某个词语不是介词，但我以为是介词，记不清了，似乎和中文概念有偏差。
> 中文教育中，一个词通常有一个“默认”的词性，而其他词性是延伸出来的，给人比较固定的感觉。
> 所以你如果不说，我都想不到stood up and sat down中那两个是adverbs...



Simple rule for directional/positional prepositions. If the particle is in relation to a location or position, e.g. up the street, along the road, at the airport, on the table, onto the table, into a room, then it's considered a preposition.

Adverb:
He went up, in a lift.
Check without up: He went in a lift.  (up is adverb, in is preposition)

Preposition:
He went up the building.
Check without up: He went the building.  (up is a preposition)

Probably not 100% foolproof, but should work most of the time.


----------



## Skatinginbc

他爬上山 ==> Check without 上:  他爬山.
走向前面 ==> Check without 向: 走前面.

Prepositions are typically non-inflecting, that is, they cannot be  modified with a word or suffix to express aspect, voice, mood, tense, and so forth  (e.g., He climbed up the mountain vs. *He climb uped the mountain; 鳥飛在天上 vs. *鳥飛在了天上).   That the aspect particle 了 can be attached to 上 (他爬上了山; also 向 in  他走向了前方) seems to argue for a "non-preposition" interpretation.


----------



## brofeelgood

This is the tricky bit which doesn't fall into the foolproof category. 

In  English, "climb" is one of those interesting and very rare transitive verbs (like ascend/descend) that  already has a default upward direction assigned to it. If I said "I  climbed Mount Everest.", it's unequivocal that I meant I was going up  the mountain and not down or sideways around it. But what's even more  interesting about "climb", is how it's not bound intractably by the  upward motion, and is at the same time free for association with other  directions. I could say, for example, "I was climbing down Everest, when  a snowstorm struck." and "down" here is mandatory for the sake of  conveying an important piece of information. Compare this with inflexible directional verbs like  ascend, descend, plunge, plummet etc which are all jammed stuck in one  direction.

Back to 爬 and 爬上. In my opinion, in statements like 他们要爬上峨嵋山 / 他们已经爬上峨嵋山, the 上 would correspond to 汉典 definition 25 (thread post #2),  meaning a successful completion of 爬. Otherwise, depending on the  intended idea, using either 上 or 爬 in their naked form would be  sufficient and more adequate, e.g. 他们要上峨嵋山 / 他们要爬峨嵋山.


----------



## Skatinginbc

Skatinginbc said:


> there isn't really a _clear-up_ distinction between the two.


I thought I wrote "_clear-cut_ distinction" until today I discovered I'd made a typo.  Stupid me .        


brofeelgood said:


> 他们要爬上峨嵋山 / 他们已经爬上峨嵋山, the 上 would correspond to 汉典 definition 25 (thread post #2),   meaning a successful completion of 爬. Otherwise, depending on the   intended idea, using either 上 or 爬 in their naked form would be   sufficient and more adequate, e.g. 他们要上峨嵋山 / 他们要爬峨嵋山.


What does 他们要爬上峨嵋山 mean?  "They want to climb up that mountain", or "They want to get on that mountain by climbing"?  
他輕功一展, 飛上飄緲峰.  "He flew up that mountain peak", or "He got on that mountain peak by flying"?
你看懂其中差異嗎 "Can you tell the difference by reading it"?  懂(不懂) "understand or not" is the emphasis (the main idea), while 看 is subsidiary, almost like an adverbial (i.e., "by reading it").  上(不上) could also be the emphasis (他们爬不上峨嵋山 ==> 有"爬"沒"上"), while 爬/飛 defines the method of achieving the result 上 "get on".
 鳥飛不上天山 vs. *鳥飛不在天上 vs. 鳥不飛在天上 or 鳥不在天上飛.  在 is a preposition; 上 does not behave like one.

鳥飛上山築巢 (= 鳥飛到山上築巢), 他走向前叫罵 (= 他走到前面叫罵) 
走向前 = 走到前面 vs. 向前走 = 朝前走 (*走朝前).

走到 ==> Is 到 a verb or a preposition?
他走到了十字路口.  他走到了沒?  到了! 到 modified by an aspect marker (了) is obviously not a preposition.  
 他走向了東方 vs. *他向了東方走 vs. 他向東方走了


----------

