# Persian: ناگهان vs ناگهانی



## ali likes the stars

Hello guys,

I'm am unsure about how ناگهان and نگاهنانی are used differently.

There is the sentence: ناگهان مار چشم های ربزش را باز کرد
Why isn't it ناگهانی مار چشم های ربزش را باز کرد?

There is another example: (...) دنبال او می دویدند و هری فرار می کرد که ناگهان به خود آمد و (...)
Again, shouldn't this be ناگهانی ?


(And on an unrelated side note: Does anyone know what ربزش means? I couldn't make any sense of it.)


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## Treaty

ناگهان "suddenly" is usually used an adverb (it is used as adjective in literary works). ناگهانی "sudden" is an adjective.
ریزش is ریز (small) + ش (its): _the snake suddenly opened its small eyes_.


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## Qureshpor

Treaty said:


> ریزش is ریز (small) + ش (its): _the snake suddenly opened its small eyes_.


Interesting. ریزہ (obviously from the Persian verb ریختن) in Urdu has the meaning of " a small piece" and ریز never has the meaning of "small".


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## ali likes the stars

Treaty said:


> ریزش is ریز (small) + ش (its)



Thank you Treaty. I actually know the word ریز. I thought the text said ر ب ز, but only after you pointed out ریز did I realize that I misread it due to the printing quality of the text I was referring to. (The ر is swallowing one of the dots of ی.)



Treaty said:


> ناگهان "suddenly" is usually used an adverb (it is used as adjective in literary works). ناگهانی "sudden" is an adjective.



So it's ناگهان حرکت کردن but حرکت ناگهانی?


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## PersoLatin

Treaty said:


> ناگهان "suddenly" is usually used an adverb (it is used as adjective in literary works)


Is it possible that the ‘real’ adverb version was ناگهانه which over time has been contracted to ناگهان & that the use of ناگهان in literary works as an adjective, is simply the correct use?


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> Interesting. ریزہ (obviously from the Persian verb ریختن) in Urdu has the meaning of " a small piece" and ریز never has the meaning of "small


Not sure of this but I don’t think ریز, meaning خرد/small, and the present stem of ریختن are etymologically connected(??)

In Persian درشت-dorošt is the opposite of ریز


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## farzan

PersoLatin said:


> Is it possible that the ‘real’ adverb version was ناگهانه which over time has been contracted to ناگهان & that the use of ناگهان in literary works as an adjective, is simply the correct use?



I suppose it is possible. The problem is, ناگهانه is not in common use as either an adverb or an adjective. I wonder if multiple examples of its application in literature even exist.


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## PersoLatin

farzan said:


> The problem is, ناگهانه is not in common use as either an adverb or an adjective.


We know: ناگهان is shortened version of نا + گاه + ان

We have گاه و ناگاه (time & again) but don’t tend to have گاهان or ناگاهان except maybe in poetry, the point I am making is the ان suffix in ناگاهان can be a plural marker but for ناگاهان to be an adverb it must have started as انه and was shortened to ان, many many moons ago hence its rarity in literature.

As a comparison we have:
1 مرد، نامرد، نامردان، نامردانه،
2 گاه، ناگاه، *ناگاهان*، ناگاهانه

In case 1 all 4 words follow the  grammar rules.

In case 2, ناگاهان is redundant/unused

او ناگهانه این کار را کرد might look & sound odd but it still makes perfect sense as these days ناگهانه & ناگهان are interchangeable, and او لباس مردان خرید is odd but also wrong as مردان & مردانه are not interchangeable.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Is it possible that the ‘real’ adverb version was ناگهانه which over time has been contracted to ناگهان & that the use of ناگهان in literary works as an adjective, is simply the correct use?


I don't think so. Perhaps fdb might be able to assist us here.

We have the -aan suffix in words such as بامدادان, ناگاھان etc (time related) and (سپاھان (اصفھان etc (place related). The only such word (?) that comes to mind that has -aanah suffix is جاویدانہ.


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## farzan

“A plural marker”? I doubt that very much. Surely, ناگهان is an adverb while ناگهانى is used both as an adjective and an adverb. 
باران ناگهان باريدن گرفت
اين اتفاق ناگهانى افتاد. 
خبر ناگهانى ازدواج اش مرا شگفت زده كرد


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## PersoLatin

farzan said:


> “A plural marker”? I doubt that very much. Surely, ناگهان is an adverb while ناگهانى is used both as an adjective and an adverb.
> باران ناگهان باريدن گرفت
> اين اتفاق ناگهانى افتاد.
> خبر ناگهانى ازدواج اش مرا شگفت زده كر


There’s no doubt ناگهان is an adverb, this is about how it has become so whilst it breaks the grammar rules that we know, unless there’s another explanation.



Qureshpor said:


> We have the -aan suffix in words such as بامدادان, ناگاھان etc (time related) and (سپاھان (اصفھان etc (place related).


Yes بامدادان is similar, maybe this was coined using the the same model as already altered ناگاهان.



Qureshpor said:


> The only such word (?) that comes to mind that has -aanah suffix is جاویدانہ.


Some more time related adverbs with the correct انه suffix  : 
،روزانه، شبانه  سالانه،،سالیانه، هفته‌گانه، ماهانه، (دیرینه)دیرانه



ali likes the stars said:


> So it's ناگهان حرکت کردن but حرکت ناگهانی?


Yes, to move suddenly and sudden movement.


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## ali likes the stars

PersoLatin said:


> Yes, to move suddenly and sudden movement.



Thank you!


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Some more time related adverbs with the correct انه suffix  :
> ،روزانه، شبانه  سالانه،،سالیانه، هفته‌گانه، ماهانه، (دیرینه)دیرانه


I thought they were all adjectives!


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## farzan

PersoLatin, I think it is possible that ناگهان and ناگاهان, while proper adjectives/adverbs and complete in themselves, may indeed have originally been short forms of ناگهانه and ناگاهانه (respectively). Something tells me that "many moons ago" each and every word had a suffix or a prefix or some other indicator to tell the natives what precisely it actually was grammatically speaking, and that rules of Persian Grammar were much more strictly applied to ensure that indicators remained firmly in place and words could not travel across boundaries between parts of speech.

To argue against this surmise (or, by the same token), the 'e' as a suffix implies style, manner, appearance, and it can be used to make up an adverb or a noun. Also, 'aan' is a suffix employed to make up an adjective/adverb. It is then equally possible to surmise that 'aan' was originally used for adjectives/adverbs of 'period, era, the right time for something', while 'aane' or just 'e' was used to indicate, not the right time for something, but rather, the style or manner of something or the style or manner in which some action took place.

To give you an example, maybe, just maybe, in the past, a native speaker would say باران بهاران to imply that this was the rain that rained in springtime, and باران بهارانه to suggest that a specific shower in another season resembled an April shower in appearance. 

In the same way ناگهان and ناگهانه may have been different: اتاق ناگهان دور سرم چرخید, versus, اتاق ناگهانه دور سرم چرخید; the former sentence simply says there came an unprecedented moment in time when the room seemed to be going round and round about me, while the latter implies that the manner in which I felt dizzy was sudden. The difference is so subtle here that you hardly notice it, I quite agree. But, who knows, Persian Grammar may have originally been equipped with such instruments of subtlety and precision. 

Another example: 
ناگهان افتادم - All of a sudden I fell down. At a precise moment that appeared to stop the flow of time but was in fact simply the right time for the event that occurred, I fell down.
ناگهانه افتادم - I suddenly fell down. The manner in which I fell down was unexpected.

Of course, nowadays we never say ناگهانه, but we could say it if we wanted to. 

Important caveat: I am just guessing in all that I've just said. I'm no scholar and can't at all be sure about what Persian Grammar was like in days long passed.


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## PersoLatin

Thank you farzan. I appreciate your detailed answer.

Whilst I agree with everything you say, I can’t help thinking the subtle differences that you mentioned could be due to the change that I have  been highlighing. A bit like some French words in English, or Persian words in Urdu, the same word has a slightly different meaning in the borrowing language, except that in this case it is Persian to/in Persian.

An interesting point is this comment:


Qureshpor said:


> Interesting. ریزہ (obviously from the Persian verb ریختن) in Urdu has the meaning of " a small piece" and ریز never has the meaning of "small".


Here it seems that ریزه has made it into Urdu whist ریز from which is has been derived hasn’t, and doesn’t even mean ‘small’ when it is presented to Urdu speakers.



farzan said:


> Another example:
> ناگهان افتادم - All of a sudden I fell down. At a precise moment that appeared to stop the flow of time but was in fact simply the right time for the event that occurred, I fell down.
> ناگهانه افتادم - I suddenly fell down. The manner in which I fell down was unexpected.


But I think your examples have made it clear, to me at least, what must have happened, I think ناگهانه hasn’t disappeared and due to its awkward pronunciation has in fact morphed into ناگهانی. It makes perfect sense as ناگهانی despite its noun looking construction, is in fact always always an adverb.

I can now park this & rest  unless of course a convincing counter argument is brought forward.


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> Some more time related adverbs with the correct انه suffix :
> ،روزانه، شبانه سالانه،،سالیانه، هفته‌گانه، ماهانه، (دیرینه)دیرانه





Qureshpor said:


> I thought they were all adjectives!



Adverbs(?)
باران روزانه میبارید
اين اتفاق روزانه می‌افتاد
شبانه پرواز کردن
 سالانه دیدن
ماهانه آبیاری کردن


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## farzan

PersoLatin said:


> I think ناگهانه hasn’t disappeared and due to its awkward pronunciation has in fact morphed into ناگهانی



This is highly likely, although the two words' pronunciations are 'awkward' to the same degree. However, روزانه has not evolved to become روزانی, and the same goes for شبانه. Evolution continues to be a great mystery!


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## PersoLatin

farzan said:


> However, روزانه has not evolved to become روزانی, and the same goes for شبانه.


The reason must have been that روزان and شبان are valid plural forms and in use, whereas ناگهان as a plural form (plural of ناگه) didn't & doesn't exist.
من بر آن بودم کز جان و دل تفسیده
بازگویی صفت عشق به *روزان* و *شبان*
شمس تبریزی مرا دوش همی‌گفت خموش
چون تو را عشق لب ماست نگهدار زبان

ز اوج آسمان، لختی فرود آی
بتدبیری ز پایم بند بگشای
بگفت، ای پست طالع، ما همائیم
کجا با تیره‌*روزان* آشنائیم




farzan said:


> although the two words' pronunciations are 'awkward' to the same degree.


What I should have said was that ناگهانه in the middle of a sentence sounds like ناگهانی so ناگهانه gradually disappeared and changed to ناگهانی and the ی in it was later interpreted as a 'noun maker' and was 'correctly' removed to produce ناگهان as an adjective and so on.


I have since found another word that I think has taken a very similar journey, زندگانی


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