# 北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです



## sasike

Hi！
The sentence comes from my textbook, I think it is a bit ambiguous that I can explain it as "a restaurant which boast palatable BeiJing roast duck" or as "北京ダック is a restaurant which has wonderful food". But from the context, I can distinguish that the first understanding is right, but I think maybe 北京ダックがおいしいのあ店なんです is more acceptable, is it grammatically right.


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## tokotoko109109

first off, typo あ店→お店

I think 北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです is omitted a subject.

この（/その/あの）お店は is the subject. 
so この（/その/あの）お店は北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです.
this(/the/that) restaurant is a restaurant which boast palatable Beijing roast duck.
so 北京ダック isn't the subject.

>北京ダックがおいしいのあ店なんです
this is wrong.

北京ダックがおいしい describes お店, like adjective.
for example
かわいい(adjective)
お店(noun)
かわいいお店 (a cute shop)
かわいいのお店 (this is wrong. a cute of shop???)


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## natrium

Hello, sasike. 

I'm japanese, and at first I couldn't understand what you were asking, because the meanig of the sentence seemed so clear. But after a while, I understand your point! Yes, it's very interesting. Now I know it could be "北京ダック is a restaurant which has wonderful food"

But why did I understand the sentence at first, not ambiguous at all? I'm not sure yet, but one of the reasons is "ga", I think. 

Aがおいしいお店です。
(G1)A is a delicious dish served in the restaurant.(possible)
(G2)A is the restaurant serving delicious dishes.(possible)

Aはおいしいお店です。
(H1)A is a delicious dish served in the restaurant.(impossible)
(H2)A is the restaurant serving delicious dishes.(possible)

The difference (G2) and (H2) is that when you say (G2), it means you and the hearer once talked about the restaurant, while (H2) means you are telling a new information about a good restaurant.

What made me think your sentence was (G1) not (G2) is that you use "ga", in addition to the fact that 北京ダック is well known for a delicious food.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです
＝（そこは）北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです　That is the restaurant where you can enjoy delicious Beijing roast ducks.
＝そのお店は北京ダックがおいしいんです。　The restaurant is famous for its delicious Beijing roast ducks.
=北京ダックがおいしいのは、その店なんです。　That is the restaurant where you can enjoy delicious Beijing roast ducks.
=北京ダックがおいしいのは、あの店なんです。　That is the restaurant where you can enjoy delicious Beijing Roast ducks.

The name of the restaurant is probably not ”北京ダック."


They are all natural, and common Japanese expressions.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

The speaker decided that the restaurant's Beijing roast ducks are delicious, or general customers decided that the restaurant's Beijing roast ducks are delicious.
I don't think the restaurant, or its chef, or its owner boasts about the duck.


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## natrium

If you say, "北京ダックはおいしいお店なんです。", this "北京ダック" absolutely means a restaurant.　This is because of "は", I don't know how it works.

If you say, "北京飯店がおいしいお店なんです。", this "北京飯店" absolutely means a restaurant. This is from the context, that is , we know "北京飯店" is a restaurant's name not a Chinese dish.

If you say, "北京ダックがおいしいお店なんです。", this "北京ダック" means a delicious dish. This is from the context, that is , we know "北京ダック" is a Chinese food. But now I think "北京ダック" could be the name of a Chinese restaurant, like "Mister Donut." 

Anyway, "A が　～　B　です。" is a natural phrase.

私が住んでいる町です。
means "(This is ) the town where I live." not "I am a living town."

天気がよい日曜日でした。
means "(It was) Sunday when it was sunny." not " Weather was a good Sunday."

私が愛している男性です。
means "(He is) the man I love." not "I am the loving man."


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## tokotoko109109

>If you say, "北京ダックはおいしいお店なんです。", this "北京ダック" absolutely means a restaurant.　This is because of "は", I don't know how it works.

先輩「お前、○○って店、北京ダックとマーボー豆腐がうまいって言ったたけど、マーボー豆腐、まずかったぞ。」
後輩「えっ、そうですか？北京ダックはどうでした？」
先輩「食ってない」
後輩「北京ダックはイケます、大丈夫です。」
先輩「まじか？マーボー豆腐を考えると、全然期待できねぇけど」
後輩「いや、大丈夫です。北京ダックはおいしい店なんです。そこは。」

みたいな会話は成り立ちますよ。


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I agree with tokotoko109109 in #7.

By the way, in order to prevent these kinds of confusions, there is a strict rule (or there used to be a strict rule) in this forum.
"We should not reply to an ambiguous sentence. We should ask the original poster to provide us with more context and background."
Right?

However, in these days, a strict rule or moderation may prevent people from visiting that forum, so the rule might be considered as more flexible way, like the Japanese constitution No.9. 

Anyway, I strongly believe that the original poster should provide us with more detailed context. 
I mean we don't need the original poster's summary of the context written in English.
We need the actual content of the textbook written in Japanese.
Furthermore, a typo might be fatal.  The original poster had better edit and correct the typo of the original question, if it was a typo.
This is the only genuine and correct solution, I think.


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## natrium

tokotoko109109 said:


> >If you say, "北京ダックはおいしいお店なんです。", this "北京ダック" absolutely means a restaurant.　This is because of "は", I don't know how it works.
> 
> 先輩「お前、○○って店、北京ダックとマーボー豆腐がうまいって言ったたけど、マーボー豆腐、まずかったぞ。」
> 後輩「えっ、そうですか？北京ダックはどうでした？」
> 先輩「食ってない」
> 後輩「北京ダックはイケます、大丈夫です。」
> 先輩「まじか？マーボー豆腐を考えると、全然期待できねぇけど」
> 後輩「いや、大丈夫です。北京ダックはおいしい店なんです。そこは。」
> 
> みたいな会話は成り立ちますよ。



Oh, thank you! You're absolutely right. With a context, it's possible. It failed me.

Does this mean Japanese is more confusing than we think?


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## natrium

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I agree with tokotoko109109 in #7.
> 
> By the way, in order to prevent these kinds of confusions, there is a strict rule (or there used to be a strict rule) in this forum.
> "We should not reply to an ambiguous sentence. We should ask the original poster to provide us with more context and background."
> Right?



I thought the questioner is asking the ambiguity itself, so I meant to tell how to deal with the ambiguity.


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## Tonky

tokotoko109109 has already explained it all perfectly in his/her previous post #2 (even though I do not agree with the grammar terms used), and I think it is solved unless op states otherwise or someone else has a further question on it.


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## natrium

About "の"

"お店"　is a noun, and in Japanese we have three ways to decorate a noun.

(1) with an "adjective"
In Japanese an "adjective" ends with "い". おいしい(delicious), 美しい (beautiful), かわいい (cute) are example. An "adjective" , however, changes its form. For example,　おいし-い becomes おいし-かろ, おいし-かっ, おいし-く and おいし-けれ. And when we use it to decorate a noun, adjective-い is put before a noun.

So, "おいし-い　お店" is correct.

(2)with an "adjective-verb?"
We have what is called "形容動詞(keiyoh-dohshi)", which can decorate a noun. "形容動詞" ends with "だ". きれいだ(beautiful), 静かだ(quiet) are examples. And "形容動詞" changes its form. きれい-だ becomes きれい-だろ, きれい-だっ, きれい-で, きれい-な and きれい-なら. And to decorate a noun, we put 形容動詞-な before a noun.

ex.きれい-な　お店

(3)with a noun
We also use another noun to decorate a noun. There are two ways. 

1 Just put another noun before a noun
ex. 北京-飯店 ( maybe a name of the restaurant which serves Chinese food by a chef from Beijing, or wants people to think so.)

2 Put another noun with "の" before a noun.
ex. 日本-の-お店(a restaurant in Japan) , 彼-の-お店 (his restaurant), 中華-の-お店( a Chinese restaurant).

So I guess you confuse (1) with (3)-2, don't you?


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## natrium

Tonky said:


> tokotoko109109 has already explained it all perfectly in his/her previous post #2 (even though I do not agree with the grammar terms used), and I think it is solved unless op states otherwise or someone else has a further question on it.



In Japan we have a restaurant named "Nagasaki Champon" which serves Nagasaki Champon. So it's possible that "北京ダック" is a restaurant's name which serves "北京ダック", isn't it?

And I thought the answers don't realize the double possible meanings, though the question comes from these double meanings.

I think it is not really solved unless the questioner says so.


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## YangMuye

It seems the the OP has forgot this thread and will never come back. Anyway, for the sake of other learners from China who have the same question, I will add a little explanation.

This sentence is from the 第３４課 of 新版中日交流标准日本语（初級下）/新版中日交流標準日本語（初級下）, a textbook published in China. You can Google the sentence to find the full text.


> 森　：小野さんを歓迎するために，とっておきのお店を予約しておきましたよ。
> 小野：本当に？ありがとうございます。
> 李　：北京ダックがおいしいお店なんですよ。


李 explains to 小野 that とっておきのお店 is a 北京ダックがおいしいお店. That's why なんですよ instead of ですよ, and が instead of は, are used.


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## Tonky

natrium said:


> In Japan we have a restaurant named "Nagasaki Champon" which serves Nagasaki Champon. So it's possible that "北京ダック" is a restaurant's name which serves "北京ダック", isn't it?


As OP stated that it is a sentence from his/her textbook, it is quite obvious that it means "It is a restaurant that serves good 北京ダック" as a part of practice using a well-known が function such as 髪が長い女の子, 足が速い生徒, explained compactly in #2. (And the textbook should have explanations on it as it is one of the major things you learn.) This is very popular topic among learners and you can find many threads on the same grammar question. 

Either way, I do not mind others continuing the topic at all. I only mentioned just in case, seeing your question "Does this mean Japanese is more confusing than we think?" 

I'm so slow at typing, ninja'd again by YangMuye-san!


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## natrium

I have a book titled "象は鼻が長い". I think that it's more difficult to distinguish between "は" and "が" than we think.

I don't know the textbook has the explanation on "が", but I know the questioner is confused. And I can't find any explanation on "が" here. So I think my answer could still be as helpful as the others.

Honestly, I don't understand well what you mean in #11, 15. If I misunderstand what you say, tell me.


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## YangMuye

natrium said:


> I don't know the textbook has the explanation on "が", but I know the questioner is confused. And I can't find any explanation on "が" here.


Although I've only read the first 10 lessons of that book. but I think there is no good explanation of が and は, which is unexceptional.
が and は is still one the most puzzling topics in Japanese.



natrium said:


> Honestly, I don't understand well what you mean in #11, 15. If I misunderstand what you say, tell me.


I think Tonky-san meant, we don't need to go so far as to answer a question which the OP probably did not (mean to) ask at all. But as long as we are interested in it, we can discuss it.


natrium said:


> And I can't find any explanation on "が" here. So I think my answer could still be as helpful as the others.


And the information, although it might not be the answer the OP needed, is helpful.


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## natrium

Hello, YangMyue



YangMuye said:


> が and は is still one the most puzzling topics in Japanese.



が and は is very difficult for the Japanese to explain, too. But interestingly enough it is very easy for us to distinguish.
I guess it's like the difference between masuculine nouns and feminine nouns in French, Spanish and so on. That is, not logical but empirical.

When I read the sasike's question, I couldn't understand what he was asking. This is because empirically the sentence he had asked of was so clear to me.

But thinking twice, I understood his point and acknowledged he was very logical. And I was afraid that he had concluded that he was logically wrong after reading the answers here and so he left here.

So what I wanted to and want to tell him is that he is logically right in that the sentence can be understood in two ways.

If I were right, this would be my advice. When you learn Japanese, you see the logical explanation on the difference between が and は. But you might as well think it's not so logical as they think. "Practice makes perfect" is the best policy.


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## YangMuye

Natrium-san, don't be depressed. As a Chinese speaker who used to have the same question, I think you understood the OP's question *correctly* that he was indeed confusing with the subject of the dependent clause and the subject of the sentence.

Whether a informative/excessive explanation is helpful or not actually depends on people.
As for me who learn Japanese as an interest, informative replies are always the most *welcome*! I don't really care if my question is solved and I will always be happy with more questions. If all my questions were solved, I would probably lost the interest to learn it.
For people who learn Japanese as a tool, I agree that too much or too broad grammatical explanation is hardly useful, simply because it require a much higher level to understand the explanation than to understand the question itself. I think that's the point Tonky-san made.

I have read researches which claims that は is the one of the latest grammar that Japanese children fully acquire. It takes small children several years to be able to use は correctly. It is definitely the hardest part of Japanese.

I actually think masculine and feminine nouns is not a good analogy to は. Masculine and feminine nouns is something simple, but not logical, while は should be something more logical, but not simple. The more I learn, the more sense I feel it makes. e.g. my past post might more or less explain the use of は in #7.


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## lingyang

同胞 帮下忙了 怎么这么冷酷无情啊


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## natrium

YangMuye-san, thank you for your kindness. Yes, I was depressed and still a little depressed.

This was my first visit to Japanese forum, and now I know it's my fault to carelessly refer to the は and が problem, which I knew is difficult but didn't realize is so controversial. I must have spent several years to master は, but I'm too old to remember my childhood! So I want to apologize my carelessness to all here.

But my excuse is that I didn't mean to discuss the は and が problem, but I just had something to tell sasike-san, who made the thread. In spite of your kind words, I thought and still believe that sasike-san is *not confused*. This is my point. I would be glad if you read my explanation.

Aがおいしいお店なんです。(S)

Reading (S) in a neutral manner, A in the sentence can be either a dish or a restaurant. Please see the sentences below.

「北京ダック」がおいしいお店なんです。(S1)
「北京飯店」がおいしいお店なんです。(S2)

Both (S1) and (S2) are possible, and the A position in (S1) means a dish while in (S2) a restaurant. What makes the difference? It's no more than our knowledge that 「北京ダック」 is a dish and 「北京飯店」 is a restaurant. No one can grammatically judge A in (S) is a dish or a restaurant. We distinguish it by each subject itself, which is not grammatical but contextual.

And sasike-san writes "But from the context, I can distinguish the fist understanding is right". So sasike-san is not confused at all, but he understands (S) perfectly. His question is not what (S) means. He asks whether his original sentence is more acceptable to avoid the ambiguity of (S).

I don't think his original sentence is suitable, but his understanding about the ambiguity of (S) is right. So the explanation with the structure PはAがおいしいお店なんです sounds to me a little irrelevant. It can be applied to only to (S1), not to (S2) nor (S).

I should have answered more carefully, and my analysis was wrong as tokotoko 109 109-san writes in #7. But what is written in #7 also means that (S) is grammatically ambiguous.

I don't know why sasike-san left here after the first question. But I guessed that he had given up waiting for another answer, feeling depressed. So what I wanted to tell sasike-san is "your question is reasonable and astute." Except for the responses to my comment, all of mine are to sasike-san.

Thank you for reading. When I wrote #18, I thought YangMuye-san was a new learner of Japanese because of 初級下 in #14. Now I know you are much beyond my advice. Please forget my advice.　Yes, the は and が is more difficlt and interesting than I thought, which I have found after visiting the forum.


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