# Towns & gardens



## ThomasK

Both the word 'town' and the word 'garden' seem to refer to *enclosed areas*. Originally though the word 'town' (or its predecessor) *referred to the fence* as such, *not to the area*, as the German word 'Zaun' still does. 

What is also 'funny' (...), is that the Russian 'gorod' is linked with 'garden', just as there is a link between the English word 'town' and the word 'tuin' (garden in Dutch). 

I'd like to explore some aspects of this :

a. Anyone who knows of this *'mix-up' of fences and areas* enclosed by it, in languages that are quite different ? 

b. Do you have *other meanings of* the basic word *t-n and g/k-rd-n* in your language ? 

c. Is there *another base for the concept 'garden'* in your language (I mean: not based on borders, fences, ...)? Does 'garden' imply (individual) property ? The icing on the cake to me: the word 'paradise' seems so suggest an enclosure ('para'/ peri/ around) but then: where from ? What was the non-garden part of Creation ? ;-)


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## OBrasilo

- ThomasK: The Russian word _gorod_ is actually linked to Common Slavic _gorad_, which means _castle_, which is still _grad_ in Slovenian, and both castle, AND town are _grad_ in Serbo-Croatioan.
But since the castles are enclosed, then _gorad_ could well be linked to the verb _ogorodit'_, which in Common Slavic, means to enclose.


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## Maroseika

In Russian there are:
огород (ogorod) - vegetable garden, related to город (gorod), 
сад (sad) - garden, linked with садить - to plant.

There is quite another word in Russian of the same origin as город/garden - жердь (zherd') - pole.
By the way, Finnish hirsi (log) and Estonian hirs (pole in the fence) are borrowed from Ancient-Russian.


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## ThomasK

So, oBrasilo, to 'enclose' again. Nothing new when you look at it from a Brasilian-Portuguese point of view. I am mainly wondering whether the concept 'garden' could ever exist without the fence - and especially about *the Garden of Eden: how could it have been enclosed ?* In a metaphorical way ? 

Maroseika, could you explain the *o-prefix* in ogorod ? 

Ancient-Russian: the *pole story* is interesting. It *reminds me of defining*, which is literally, so I believe, planting poles or 'border signs' (finis) in order 'circumscribe' the word... We have be-palen as a matter of fact, as an originally Dutch word (or Dutch-ification) of 'de-fine'....


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> Maroseika, could you explain the *o-prefix* in ogorod ?


This prefix is often used to express an idea of encircling - in literal and figurative sense. In our case огород < огородить (to fence in) as город < городить (to fence).
But o-prefix immediately generates an idea of something being fenced around, while the verb without it (городить) doesn't express this idea so clearly.
Another example:
ехать - to drive
объехать (to drive around) 

This prefix is of the same origin as Ancient-German umbi-, Latin ambi- and Greek amfi-, and also perfective prefix be- in German languages (Vasmer).


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Maroseika, but then we seem to get a pleonasm, so it seems to me: the idea of enclosing/ encircling is implied in 'gorod', already, so I understood. But I imagine the prefix was added in order to distinguish between a garden and a town. Or ... ? 

_Umbi, ambi, amfi-_ : oh yes, like around. Reminds me of the Greek _peri and_ even Persian _par-_ or something the like, as in  _Paradise..._


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## Maroseika

In Russian городить has no encircling connotation since long ago, rather meaning "to build, to pile up. For example, there is an old idiom:
городить вздор - to talk a nonsense, literally "to enclose" a nonsense. But in fact there is not a trace of any enclosing in this idiom, but only, so to speak, piling up one nonsense above another.
maybe that's a reason why огород doesn't look like pleonasm.
Since the words akin to Russian жердь (pile) exist in all Slavic languages, we may assume that город has lost its encircling sense as long ago as in the Old-Slavic language, obtaining the sense of something built, heaped up. Maybe in Russian there was an influence of the word громоздить < громозда - a pile, a heap.


Also, compare: 
Lithuanian gardinỹs - cattle-shed
Zhemaitis gardìs -̨ lettice cart board
Ancient-Indian grhás - house
Avestian gǝrǝδō - cave
Tokhar B  kerciye - castle


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## ThomasK

Interesting, these connotations that still work or no longer do. I must admit noone remembers the enclosing contained (?) in _tuin/gaard_, that is right. What I do think is that funnily enough our concept of gardens does refer to the enclosing _(that is why I do not quite understand why it is the 'Garden' of Eden ? Is maybe some kind of intimacy involved by the metaphor ??? No idea, I must admit. I suppose you have a garden of Eden in Russian - or is it not called a garden ?)._

The other words you refer to, are also interesting. I do not know some of those languages as such, but I suppose I'll find them.

You're right of course: we often no longer think of certain 'underlying' meanings. Yet, what I do think is the enclosing is still implicitly 'contained' in the garden concept. 

That is why the Garden of Eden now sounds strange to me: was it enclosed ? Or is it a metaphor referring to some kind of intimacy implied in the garden concept. 

The other words are interesting, but I do not know some of those languages as such...


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> _I suppose you have a garden of Eden in Russian - or is it not called a garden ?)._


In Russian we use the word deriving from the verb "to plant" that I've already mentioned before (сад - sad). Therefore for me ther is no wonder regarding encircled Edem. I guess "sad" is closer to the Greek original (though it has to be rechecked, of course), but then it looks quite logic - the place where a multitude of plants arу growing.



> That is why the Garden of Eden now sounds strange to me: was it enclosed ?
> Or is it a metaphor referring to some kind of intimacy implied in the garden concept.


I believe it has become a metaphor long before it was used as such in Bible, i.e. meant just a "park", place with plants, but not an enclosed place literally. 



> The other words are interesting, but I do not know some of those languages as such...


Well, I'm not sure I wrote Zhemaitis correct, I've never seen it in English. This was one of the languages in Lithuania.


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## ThomasK

Aha, that would be a different origin of the concept garden; something like _*arboretum*_. I do know: we have a separate word in our dialect for the *vegetable garden (lochting, based on leaves+.... [tuin ?]).* I suppose there we mainly mean area, or plot. Yes, interesting idea, but i would never have thought of that association. Tuin reminds me of *a park as well: to walk in*. And indeed: I found this in the Wikipedia :

from Arabic : جنات عدن Hebrew *גַּן עֵדֶן* _Gan ‘Ēden_, derived from the Sumerian word 'edin' *meaning 'open country', which is quite the opposite... *

I may be allowed to point out though that 'park' refers to fence, i.e., enclosure again ! ;-)

To conclude : I found a reference to the the Zemaitis language, but not to the other ones : 

Aukštaičių (Aukstaitian, Highland Lithuanian), Žemaičių/Žemaitiu (Samogitian, Lowland Lithuanian), ...

[Thanks !]

*Anyone able to comment on these [*_Q: Give me some_*] traditional sanskrit names for gardens and lawns in Bangalore ? Is* _-nam_ *garden ?* 

(1) Upavanam

(2) Uddyanam
(3) Indrodyanam
(4) Vaatikam
(5) Pushpa vanam
(6) Pushpa vaatikam
(7) Griha vaatikah (within house)
(8) Malay Vaatikam
(9) Vyjayanti Uddyanam
(10) Sheetal Vihaar
(11) Ashok Vaatika
(12) Kalpa Vaatika
(13) Panchavihar
(14) Panchavati

It seems to be a forest rather. That reminds me of what we call 'park' (which I thought was at least based on enclosure, but... ?)

I think it is 'dromos' in Greek, but I have not yet found the precise origin (we have _hippodrome_, indeed).

'tei'en' in Japanese, I believe... Any comment, anyone ? ;-)


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## wonderment

ThomasK said:


> The icing on the cake to me: the word 'paradise' seems so suggest an enclosure ('para'/ peri/ around) but then: where from ? What was the non-garden part of Creation ? ;-)



From Online Etymology Dictionary 



> *paradise *
> c.1175, "Garden of Eden," from O.Fr. _paradis_, from L.L. _paradisus,_ from Gk. _paradeisos_ "park, paradise, Garden of Eden," from an Iranian source, cf. Avestan _pairidaeza_ "enclosure, park" (Mod.Pers. and Arabic _firdaus_ "garden, paradise"), compound of _pairi- _"around" + _diz _"to make, form (a wall)." The first element is cognate with Gk. _peri-_ "around, about" (see _peri-_), the second is from PIE base _*dheigh- _"to form, build" (see _dough_). The Gk. word, originally used for an orchard or hunting park in Persia, was used in Septuagint to mean "Garden of Eden," and in New Testament translations of Luke xxiii.43 to mean "heaven" (a sense attested in Eng. from c.1205). Meaning "place like or compared to Paradise" is from c.1300.



And hippodrome (Greek) --> hippos (horse) + dromos (race, course) = in antiquity, an arena for chariot or horse races, then later used for other sporting events.


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## Rajki

Interesting words:

Albanian gardh 'fence', Romanian gard 'fence'

Hungarian kerit 'enclose', kerites 'fence', kert 'garden'

Chuvash karda 'enclosure', Tatar kirtä

Mordvinian: Moksha karda 'courtyard', Erzya kardas

Udmurt karda 'stable, barn'


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## ThomasK

So all of those words  are linked, you mean. I am impressed, also about the variation fence / garden... Maybe: are we talking about vegetable gardens, orchards, arboretha, or ... ?


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## sokol

Rajki said:


> Hungarian kerit 'enclose', kerites 'fence', kert 'garden'
> 
> Chuvash karda 'enclosure', Tatar kirtä
> 
> Mordvinian: Moksha karda 'courtyard', Erzya kardas
> 
> Udmurt karda 'stable, barn'


Well, all those languages could easily have loaned the IE root - but has this been established on more or less safe grounds, for all those languages?

It's not that I'm not noticing the striking similarities, but as you have only written them down I'd just like to ask whether etymologies have established or whether you just find these words interesting, in this context (which I do too ).


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## Mahaodeh

This is true in Classical Arabic too; the word Haa'iT حائط literally means "surrounder" but it refers to either a wall or an orchard surrounded by a wall.

In modern Arabic the word only refers to a wall and a new loanword from Persian (bustaan) is used for the orchard.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
Town is Κώμη (k*o*mi, _f_), or in combination with the Greek name for the city, which is πόλη (p*o*li, _f._->modern Greek); πόλις ('polis, _f._->ancient Greek), κωμόπολη (kom*o*poli, _f._). Its etymology is obscure, many philologists however suggest it derives from the ancient κῶμος ('kōmos, _m._) or κώμυς ('kōmūs, _f._); both from the IPA *qem: to compress, to squeeze. komos described the crowd in ancient Greek (or the cheerful procession of people who take part in revels; from where κωμωδία, kōmō'ðia, _f._, comedy, derives), while komus stood for the bundle, especially the bundle of canes.
The irrigated garden in modern colloquial Greek is περιβόλι (periv*o*li, _n._), from the Hellenistic Greek περιβόλιον (peri'volion, _n._), diminutive of the ancient περίβολος (pe'rivolos, _m._), which in turn derives from the verb περιβάλλω, periv*a*lo->to enclose, to encircle. Perivolos described the enclosing wall, peri'volion the enclosing fence, therefore perivoli is the enclosed/encircled area/land.
The uncultivated garden is called κτήμα (kt*i*ma, _n._), from the ancient κτῆμα ('ktēma, _n._), simply the property.


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## Rajki

Interesting words (2nd part):

In Nagorno Karabakh, we find the towns named:

Stepanakert (according) to Wiktionary, which means in Armenian "Stephen built (it)".

Martakert

In Israel, we find the organization named:

Naturei Karta, which means in Aramaic "Guardians of the City".

(Unfortunately, karta is not from a root *q-r-t but from a root *q-r-y, cf. Hebrew qirya = suburb, Arabic qarya = village)


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## WadiH

Mahaodeh said:


> This is true in Classical Arabic too; the word Haa'iT حائط literally means "surrounder" but it refers to either a wall or an orchard surrounded by a wall.
> 
> In modern Arabic the word only refers to a wall and a new loanword from Persian (bustaan) is used for the orchard.



Inside the Peninsula this word was still used to mean "garden" until the 20th century, though sometimes appearing in the diminutive حويّط (_HwayyiT_), or as حوطة (_HoTah_), which is why you have towns like _HoTat Bani Tamiim_ and _HoTt Sdeer_.


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## Abu Rashid

> Inside the Peninsula this word was still used to mean "garden" until the 20th century, though sometimes appearing in the diminutive حويّط (_HwayyiT_), or as حوطة (_HoTah_), which is why you have towns like _HoTat Bani Tamiim_ and _HoTt Sdeer_.



I've heard also that in Jordan it's still used to refer to an enclosed garden like a courtyard.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Rashid said:


> I've heard also that in Jordan it's still used to refer to an enclosed garden like a courtyard.


 
No, definitly not in Jordan, unless you are referring to nomads.


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## werrr

Perhaps the best Slavic fit for enclosure is the word *obora* (obóra, obôra, òbor… in various languages) with meanings varying from *close*, *forrest*, *game-park*, *fold* to *stable*, *(cow)shed*.

It comes directly from **ob(v)erti* (= to enclose; ob = en-, around; *verti = to close).


In Czech:

  hrad = castle
  zahrada = garden
  ohrada = fence / area enclosed by fence
  hráz = dam / a body of water confined by a dam

All with the same etymology as Russian _gorod_ above.


  dvůr = court, yard

Related to _dveře_ (= door) and English _door_, German _Tor_ and _Tür_.


  týn = merchant yard, stronghold

From Celtic _dunum_ which is cognate to German _Zaun_ and English _town_.


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## ThomasK

I am not sure this is a good summary of your interesting contribution: there are three Slavic or Czech words that could be useful here: *obora* (parallel with gorod ?) , _*dvur*_ (Tür), _*tyn*_ (town, Zaun) ? _(Is there any hint of verti in E/F/G, do you think ? Is the Latin 'vertere', which I don't think ?)_


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## werrr

ThomasK said:


> …*obora* (parallel with gorod ?) …, _(Is there any hint of verti in E/F/G, do you think ? Is the Latin 'vertere', which I don't think ?)_


*Ob(v)ora* is not cognate to *gorod*, but the idea behind its etymology is the same, an enclosure.

Slavic **verti* comes from IE **u̯er-* (to shut, close, cover; to guard, save) — see here.



> _*dvur*_ (Tür)


Here, the idea of closure is expressed using door/gate. The same concept exists in Latin, compare Czech *dvůr × dveře* (Russian *двор × двери*) with Latin *forum × fora/fores*. It’s even cognate.



> _*tyn*_ (town, Zaun)


This was just link to a Czech cognate to English *town* whose etymology is also based on enclosure.

Another English word with the same etymology as Slavic *gorod* is yard.


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## Abu Rashid

> No, definitly not in Jordan, unless you are referring to nomads.



No I heard it from a city dweller, but now I think of it, I think he was referring to a rooftop area, not a courtyard. And he used HeeT for it not Haa'iT, as I noticed quite a few people were amused that he'd use the term in such a strange way (since this usually means wall). My mistake.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Rashid said:


> No I heard it from a city dweller, but now I think of it, I think he was referring to a rooftop area, not a courtyard. And he used HeeT for it not Haa'iT, as I noticed quite a few people were amused that he'd use the term in such a strange way (since this usually means wall). My mistake.


 
This is actually very interesting; unless the person is affected by Saudi dialects or Classical Arabic, this seems like a reason why people might end up using the same word - or a word of the same origin, don't you think?


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## ThomasK

I do not know whether this is of any relevance but 
 - in Dutch a rooftop area, if flat, can be called 'daktuin' (roof garden)
 - a wall and a garden can be associated, as etymology betrays: the same t-n words refer to the fence [wall ?] (_Zaun_, German) or to the garden (_tuin_, Dutch) or the walled town (English)


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## badtrip

As to Polish - it is very similar to what my fellow Slavs mentioned before 

The "garden" is "ogród" (similar to russian "ogorod") and it is similar to word "ogradzać" which means "to fence sth". Same time "gród" is an "ancient polish" name for... actually "a town".
Othe words for the verb "to fence" would be 

"Za*gradzać*/Za*grodzić*" (it's more of "to block" actually, "a fallen tree blocked the road" - "drzewo zagrodziło drogę").

"Grodzić" which is essentialy the same but rather not used much. *But* it bears a conotation of "to divide", as "we fence ourselves because something threatens us" - where "Grodzić" would be used in the form of "Odgrodzić" which means "to separate". "Odgradzamy się od Europy" - "We separate ourselves off Europe"

"Ogrodzić" is a word you'd use to say that you put a fence around your house.

*Werr* was saying about "obora" in slavic languages - in Polish it is used only when you talk about a cowshed. Even if it meant something different before, now it's only the place for cows to live. I can't even trace any words which would mean something similar to "enclosure" or "town" or "garden" with fragments of Obora in them in Polish... Maybe "Bór" which is not used and used to mean the forest... But I'm not great in this stuff so I won't express more.

However, there a word "Zagroda" which comes from "Grodzić" which means basically a fence for animals to be inside, but you can use it in different context if you'd specify what this "zagroda" contains inside..


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## werrr

badtrip said:


> Maybe "Bór".


No, *obora* and *bor* are unrelated. *Bor* is pine/coniferous forrest, it is related to *borovice* (pine tree) and *borůvka* (various berries depending on particular language). All comes from IE **bhar-* (prong, spike, bristle) which is also the base for *brada* (chin, beard) and English *beard*, German *Bart* and Latin *barba*.


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## badtrip

werrr said:


> No, *obora* and *bor* are unrelated. *Bor* is pine/coniferous forrest, it is related to *borovice* (pine tree) and *borůvka* (various berries depending on particular language). All comes from IE **bhar-* (prong, spike, bristle) which is also the base for *brada* (chin, beard) and English *beard*, German *Bart* and Latin *barba*.



Oh yeah, you're absolutely right. Bór is of "borówka" and stuff like that, although I cannot recall right now recally any tree which would apply to this context of "bór" using


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## Miguel Antonio

I wonder whether the Latin word _villa_ that designated a country estate, with a large house for the owner and several outhouses, but essentially in nature a rural ensemble not necessarily totally enclosed by one single surrounding wall, that led to the Romance versions _ville, vila, villa _(in French, Catalan-Portuguese-Galician and Spanish, respectively), which mean "town", in many cases originally surrounded by a wall, and absolutely urban in nature, would fit into the scope of this discussion?


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## ThomasK

Interesting point, but it does not seem to: it is supposed to refer to vicus, and then clan in IE; it does not really suggest excluding as including. 

Although one implies the other, I think: who includes some, excludes some others. So a town wll excludes the ones and includes the others...


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