# Kangaroo - Kiwi relations.  Is it all water under the arm?



## .   1

G'day to my Kiwi counterparts, (and anyone else who has an opinion on such esoteric matters)

Some years ago a very tired and emotional captain of a cricket team instructed his younger brother to bowl the last ball of a cricket match underarm.
The ball was rolled along the pitch and the match was over with Australia winning by less than 6 runs.  The ball was bowled underarm to ensure that the batsman had no chance to hit a 6.

It was staggeringly bad sportsmanship and I couldn't believe it as I was watching it happen.  I don't believe that any other bowler in the Australian team would have followed the stupid instruction.  The bowler has apologised as has the captain.

The matter is now a standing joke that Aussies just have to cop from Kiwis but I have never felt any animosity about it.

Just now a NZ politician type is making noises that Kiwis must forgive and forget the matter in the greater good because he believes that it may hinder Australina tourists from visiting NZ.

Am I missing something?
Are Kiwis rally pissed off about the infamous underarm ball or is this politician missing the irony?

.,,


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## heidita

Hi Robert, are the _Kiwis _the people from New Zealand? Are they aware they are called Kiwis?


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## cuchuflete

heidita said:


> Hi Robert, are the _Kiwis _the people from New Zealand? Are they aware they are called Kiwis?


 The WordReference English dictionary says: Kiwi_- a native or inhabitant of New Zealand._


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## french4beth

Sounds like it was a slow news day for that politician. And the event occurred several years ago? If this is the first that you've heard of it, hopefully it will also be the _last_.


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## zebedee

heidita said:


> Hi Robert, are the _Kiwis _the people from New Zealand? Are they aware they are called Kiwis?



Not only are they aware of it, heidita, but they call themselves and present themselves as Kiwis. The kiwi is an emblem of New Zealand and, along with others like the silver fern, forms a part of their national pride.


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## .   1

french4beth said:


> Sounds like it was a slow news day for that politician. And the event occurred several years ago? If this is the first that you've heard of it, hopefully it will also be the _last_.


This is a well known event from about 25 years ago.
I have heard so many good natured jibes about this over the years but there was never any rancour involved.
This seems like a weird rewrite of history but I can only see it from the Aussie viewpoint and I was wondering if somebody from the land of the long white cloud could enlighten me.

.,,


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## Bonjules

Hello,
Is this incident all there is? For all of us not expert in 
possible sibling rivalries down under - could we have a bit more background?
According to a popular German news magazine groups from either place regularly travel to the Oktoberfest in Munich to have their ritual yearly brawl there. Unless the reporter made this up completely (possible, but he quoted participants) - this incident would not seem the only trigger, would it?


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## .   1

It was no big deal even at the time.
It was just a professional cricket competition.
There was only one ball left to be bowled.
Australia was leading by 5 runs.
Any park bowler could bowl a ball that was not able to be hit for 6.
The batsman was not a renowned hitter of the ball.
The Australian captain is a legend of the game.
His younger brother was a fringe test player.
The Australian captain ordered the bowler to roll the ball along the grass so that even Vivian Richards couldn't hit it for 6.
It was really bad sportsmanship and ruined a very closely fought match but it was only a game.
This is what I am waiting for a Kiwi to confirm.
Is this incident viewed more seriously in NZ?
I can see this as being logical as the Kiwis were the victim not the perpetrators but it was still a game.

.,,


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## Brioche

New Zealand and Australia are each other's largest tourist market.

There are no immigration controls between the two countries, and no work permits or other bars to living and working.

Australia and New Zealand are culturally more similar to each other than to any other country. 

After UK-born, NZ-born are the largest group of overseas-born in Australia.

Australians make lots of jokes about New Zealanders implying that they have sexual relations with sheep - there are very similar jokes told in England about the Welsh.


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## Bonjules

Thank you, Brioche, this explains a lot.
'Sibling rivalry' is maybe not such a bad term, then.
Or, if one wants to put a more negative spin on it:
'Familiarity breeds....'


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## .   1

Bonjules said:


> According to a popular German news magazine groups from either place regularly travel to the Oktoberfest in Munich to have their ritual yearly brawl there. Unless the reporter made this up completely (possible, but he quoted participants) - this incident would not seem the only trigger, would it?


G'day Bonjules,
Am I to understand that you are saying that groups from Australia travel to Munich in order to brawl with similar groups from New Zealand??
Mate, that's a long way to travel when they can have a blue in any pub in Bondi.  That sounds unusual.  I reckon that a group of drunken Aussies at a beer festival would be more interested in something more interesting than drunken Kiwis.  After a few beers they wouldn't be able to tell each other apart anyway.



Brioche said:


> Australians make lots of jokes about New Zealanders implying that they have sexual relations with sheep - there are very similar jokes told in England about the Welsh.


Some city people have a lot of jokes slack jokes about sheep but the rest of us who grew up with more sheep than NZ has ever had just don't get the humour for some reason.

.,,


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## Bonjules

. said:


> G'day Bonjules,
> Am I to understand that you are saying that groups from Australia travel to Munich in order ....
> Mate, that's a long way to travel when they can have a blue in any pub in Bondi. That sounds unusual. I reckon that a group of drunken Aussies at a beer festival would be more interested in something more interesting than drunken Kiwis.
> 
> .,,


I would tend to agree with you there, Dotwocomma.
Except...maybe we are missing the point: First, any occasion is welcome for a good brawl ('blue'?), even on the pure suspicion or possibility that we might be dealing with a Kiwi!
Secondly, if you can have it any day in Bondi, what fun would that be. It's got to be a lot more special if you have travelled that far and spent all that money to indulge.
cheers!


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## .   1

I really don't understand what you are saying.
My question still hangs.
Are there reports of Aussies and Kiwis travelling to Oktoberfest to brawl with each other?

.,,


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## Bonjules

. said:


> I really don't understand what you are saying.
> My question still hangs.
> Are there reports of Aussies and Kiwis travelling to Oktoberfest to brawl with each other?
> 
> .,,


Yes. It was part of a big article about the Oktoberfest.
I didn't make it up.


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## .   1

Could you give me some kind of hint where I could find the article.
I have never heard of such behaviour.

.,,


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## Brioche

Bonjules said:


> Yes. It was part of a big article about the Oktoberfest.
> I didn't make it up.



Do you have a link to the article? In German is fine for me.

Do you mean that they go to the Oktoberfest so that they can have Kiwi versus Aussie fights - or that they go to the Oktoberfest so that they can join together to fight other people?


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## Bonjules

Brioche said:


> Do you have a link to the article? In German is fine for me.
> 
> Do you mean that they go to the Oktoberfest so that they can have Kiwi versus Aussie fights - or that they go to the Oktoberfest so that they can join together to fight other people?


Well, guys, now I wish I had saved it! It was (I'm pretty sure)in 'Der Spiegel' last september(guessing, it starts traditionally in September, but extends sometimes into October). The writer specifically quoted a lawyer from Australia who goes every year, and yes, it was to brawl with each other, but I' m sure some Germans joining in would be fine...If I remember right, they have a traditional place and time, so it is easier for everybody. Of course, it is well possible that these reporters embellish things somewhat (or the attorney might have been a bit of a story teller!)
Der Spiegel has an archive; I haven't had much luck using it, also they charge. Unfortunately I don't remember the title of the article; it just stuck in my mind as a piece of fun trivia and I think I mentioned it at the time in the 'Oktoberfest' thread.
But, for all it's worth, it would be a good story/rumor anyway, wouldn't it?
saludos


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## Henryk

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/metropolen/0,1518,436357,00.html


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## Bonjules

Henryk said:


> http://www.spiegel.de/reise/metropolen/0,1518,436357,00.html


Ah, thank you, Henryk, for going through the trouble..
I meant to clarify, in case folks thought the entire article was about this: It wasn't. It was mentioned as part of an article about the oktoberfest. If you read the entire article though, there are at least 2 references to the
purported fact...
saludos


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## cuchuflete

Are the oktoberfest punches delivered overhand or underarm?  Do the combatants make reference to the
cricket match before or after slugging one another?  Are sheep invoked?  

Before we embarked on this lovely little aside, there was a thread question:



> Are Kiwis rally pissed off about the infamous underarm ball or is this politician missing the irony?


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## .   1

Bonjules said:


> But, for all it's worth, it would be a good story/rumor anyway, wouldn't it?


I really don't see the funny side of it at all.  My question does relate to relations between the two cultures and I do not think that such 'stories' or 'rumours' are of benefit.
Australia is full of tabloid journalists just champing at the bit for a juicy little bit of nasty rumour to spread and I have never heard a peep about such shennanigans.
I am waiting for a response in another thread but I will guess that Der Spiegal is not exactly to be placed in the the highest league of mass media outlets when it comes to relaying the truth accurately.

This whole thing sounds like an urban legend manufactured to stir up interest in what is seen by many as a long drug binge.
Could you imagine it if Oktoberfest had joints instead of steins?

I can't understand why people would like to spread and defend such stories and I guess that if I can figure that one out I will have a more accurate answer than 42.

.,,


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## Brioche

Henryk said:


> http://www.spiegel.de/reise/metropolen/0,1518,436357,00.html



warum der australische Rechtsanwalt Darryll Jones alljährlich erster Klasse nach München fliegt, um sich zunächst ganztägig heftigst zu betrinken und dann mit Neuseeländern ("Fuck you, Kiwi") zu prügeln, bis das Blut aus der Nase rinnt;

Personally, I don't believe it.

If this sort of thing happened on a regular basis, one or other of the Australian tabloids would have picked up on it.

I'm quite happy to believe: _um sich ganztägig heftigst zu betrinken_, but not the:_ um ... mit Neuseeländern zu prügeln_.


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## Bonjules

Look, dear friends.
I'm not sure we should make more of this than it's worth:
A story that sheds a little light on human folly in general. Did the writer totally make it up? Doubt it. Did he likely juice it up a little, embellish it? Probably.
Does it specificially tell something about Aussies and/or 'Kiwis'? Not in particular; really not at all.
We are not very different from each other; we are very tribal and competitive as a species and prone to get physical when given the opportunity. You can see it ervery day, almost everywhere. 
Seen some parents at a soccer game lately? It can make you fear for your life in no time.
saludos


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## calembourde

Am I really the first kiwi to come across this thread? Then I guess I should comment.

Aussies and Kiwis have what I have always thought of as a friendly rivalry... sibling rivalry is a good term. I've heard it's similar to the relationship between the USA and Canada. It seems like France and French-speaking Switzerland have the same kind of relationship too (NZers sometimes say, 'we support two teams, NZ and anyone playing against Australia' and somebody told me about T-shirts saying the same thing about Switzerland and France.) Aussies and kiwis don't hate each other, and if they get into fights during Oktoberfest I doubt there's any reason apart from drunkenness.

I went along with the friendly rivalry, making jokes about Australians being stupid or doing the same things with sheep that they imply we do... until one day somebody told me that the whole rivalry is in fact based on sport. Perhaps it was even started by the underarm bowling thing, I don't know. I have no interest in sport so I'm trying not to hassle the Aussies so much now.  

I don't believe anyone is seriously upset about 'the underarm bowling incident'. I don't believe NZers are seriously upset with Australians for any reason. However, I have heard of the incident... even though I have no interest in cricket and I must have been a baby when it happened. So apparently it has an enduring place in our collective psyche. Perhaps more sports-obsessed people are more upset about it than I realise.

But seriously, who would be unwelcoming to somebody just because they happened to have been born on the same lump of land as somebody who did something unsportsmanlike to somebody else who happened to be born on their own lump of land? I guess I've never really understood national or regional pride in general. No matter how good or how bad a famous New Zealander that I've never met might have been, and no matter how well they did in a sports game, that does not reflect on me in the slightest. It's pure chance that we were born in the same country. We were raised with the same culture but culture is not going to imbue me with other people's talents or faults.


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## .   1

Bonjules said:


> Look, dear friends.
> I'm not sure we should make more of this than it's worth:
> A story that sheds a little light on human folly in general. Did the writer totally make it up? Doubt it. Did he likely juice it up a little, embellish it? Probably.
> Does it specificially tell something about Aussies and/or 'Kiwis'? Not in particular; really not at all.
> We are not very different from each other; we are very tribal and competitive as a species and prone to get physical when given the opportunity. You can see it ervery day, almost everywhere.
> Seen some parents at a soccer game lately? It can make you fear for your life in no time.
> saludos


This entire 'anecdote' has added nothing but confusion and acrimony to this thread all in the name of spreading a juicy story.
This says nothing at all about Aussies or Kiwis because no Aussies or Kiwis have been involved in the proliferation of this 'story'.
This 'story' has been percolating through these forums and it has been supported with 'references' that were not produced by the purporter and then when it did arrive it made a marshmallow look solid.
An Australian 'lawyer' (was it Bruce?) who could afford to travel First Class to Germany to get involved in a brawl on international soil surrounded by media at a prearranged spot and risk disbarrment upon any such conviction.  This 'intelligence' being gleaned from the travel section and reported in how many other places?  None.
I ask a question of cohesion and receive concept that could do nothing but cause a rift between the two societies subject of the question.
What does this say about human nature?

.,,


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## Brioche

I googled to try to find Darryll Jones.
I thought the spelling Darryll rather odd. 
Generally speaking, in Australia, only people from the lower socio-economic stratum spell their children's names in odd ways - and lawyers generally don't come from that stratum.

There is an American Law Professor at Pittsburgh University with that name.

Perhaps he can sue Der Spiegel.

Sporting rivalry between Australia and New Zealand pre-dates the "underarm", as do the sheep and various other jokes.
Most of the Aussie v Kiwi jokes are variations on the Irish jokes in England, the Kerryman jokes in Ireland, the East Friesian jokes in Germany, the Belgian jokes in France, the Newfie jokes in Canada, &c, &c, &c.


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