# Prison Rodeos



## KittyCatty

Hello,
Recently I was unfortunate enough to see a news article on the TV about a US prison rodeo - and it was just barbaric! I couldn't believe that watching humans get gored by raging bulls could be entertaining, convicts or not. I said to my relatives watching with me - we got rid of bear baiting and cock-fighting centuries ago, and that was mere animals! I mean, I don't even think I agree with bullfighting anyway, or any kind of animal cruelty, but with convicts too? The worst thing was I caught an episode of the Simpsons yesterday which involved a prison rodeo, but where were the biting social comments? It even seemed to support the rodeos more than it condemned them (which I didn't seem to pick up on, though I expected it).
I don't know, I guess I want to know whether I am over-sensitive, or what your views are on such activities? There are few if not any events like this in the UK. Bull-fights happen a lot in Spain though. I would be interested to know your position; I'm open-minded so don't be afraid!


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## GenJen54

Rodeo in general is still very popular in the U.S.  That rodeos happen in prisons (there is even a "gay prison rodeo") is seen as a means of expression and recreation for the participants. 

The prisoners are not forced to participate.  Many volunteer.

It's an odd notion, to be sure, but one which does not raise many eyebrows, at least in the Western part of the U.S.

Obviously, I cannot speak for the UK.


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## Outsider

I had never heard about prison rodeos before this thread. My first thought is that life in prison must be very dull, and already violent anyway. The prisoners might welcome a rodeo as a way to break the routine.


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## french4beth

This is news to me - never heard of it before this thread!

After a brief search on line, it seems that it's a way for inmates to have some recreation, and the money raised goes back to the community.  On several sites, there are craft festivals, etc.

There are hardly any rodeos in my area, but I see nothing 'barbaric' about it (unless you consider rodeos in general to be barbaric), and the prisoners appear to be volunteers (and it's not like they're goring each other, at least not in the arena).


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## la reine victoria

Well, provided the prisoners do it voluntarily, then that's their choice.

Kitty Catty, I am also opposed to bull fighting.  I have been to Spain several times but would never attend such an event.

I abhor all cruelty to animals.  However, I also respect other peoples' cultures.  I just have to stay detached I suppose.




LRV


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## Pedro Arteaga

Hi KittyCatty

I can understand your surprise and your disgust concerning the Prison Rodeos, but I think GenJen54 is right. It is a very common tradition here in the US and it is absolutely free. Just as the "torreros" in Spain or in many other south american countries. It is very hard to understand especially if you didn't grow up in these traditions. Humor and entertainment are among the most difficult things to understand concerning an other culture. As I was born and raised in Europe I don't like it too much myself, but if you go to a Rodeo ... it is FUN. It's not only the poor animal and the "rider", but it is the whole thing together. I guess it is just like someone who never was brought up in a "soccer" world, might consider it boring and useless. 
Many of these traditions are strongly linked to the history of the country. Rodeo was public time of "training" wild horses. Obviously it developed into a fun activity, as they were trying to stay as long as possible on a bull instead of a horse. Many inmates in our US prisons come form this background and therefore they have fun doing it. It is just like boxing... I don't like it either, yet... many do so!


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## diegodbs

> Kitty Catty, I am also opposed to bull fighting. I have been to Spain several times but would never attend such an event.
> 
> I abhor all cruelty to animals. However, I also respect other peoples' cultures. I just have to stay detached I suppose.


 
LRV, as for me I don't see the need to stay detached whenever cruelty is involved.
I have never been and I would never attend a bull fight and there is a growing opposition to them among young people. I can't see them as "culture" but as a tradition, and a barbaric one. I just hate them and that's what I say when someone asks my opinion about them.

If I were asked about American football, I can say I don't like it. But if I am asked about cruel or barbaric traditions I say "I hate them" whether those in my country or in any other.


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## danielfranco

Well, at least in a rodeo no animals get killed as the closing act of the evening...
They just get very very very very very peeved!
Perhaps the most barbaric part of the whole event is that the bulls and horses give it a pretty good go at stamping everything in sight, and everyone in (on?) the rodeo arena is fair game.
Oh, okay, and also the rope tied around the bull or horse (so that the cowboy can hold on) has some spikes in it, to make sure the horse or bull bucks like crazy and tries to get rid of the cheeky person riding it.
But, for sure, the bravest, strongest, fastest, and most exciting people in a rodeo are the clowns. You have to be a man's man, a real tough hombre to be a rodeo cowboy!


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## moura

diegodbs: "But if I am asked about cruel or barbaric traditions I say "I hate them" whether those in my country or in any other."

An applause as wide as the world to yr statement, specially because you are Spanish. The bullfight is a tradition too in Portugal (different, only because the bull is not killed in the arena). It's one of the most unfair, barbaric, cruel "fights" that may exist. 
I hope it will end as quick as possible!!!!!! If many wants, things happen.


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## la reine victoria

diegodbs said:
			
		

> LRV, as for me I don't see the need to stay detached whenever cruelty is involved.


 


Diego,

I am now in my 60s and can hardly be expected to march around Spain waving a banner saying "Down with Bullfighting!"  A search of the web will show you that there are plenty of anti-bullfighting groups, worldwide, who are very active.  They have my full support.



LRV


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## KittyCatty

Hello, thanks for all your replies. I can understand your points of view because after all this is a cultural discussion and our cultures affect our points of view - I didn't want this to be an animal or convicts' rights discussion, because there are probably many other places for that. However, because these events do not happen in the UK, and it's not part of UK culture, you will not find many supporters of them and you will hear a lot of anti-cruelty views - I found out about them as I said on the news, which was itself an article portraying the rodeo in - as I can guess from your responses - the worst light, which evoked such disgust in me. In this particular instance, the prisoners had been told to do the rodeo because I think, if I remember rightly the other prisoners had backed out. People were watching and cheering as a bull tossed a convict about, who was seriously injured if not killed (sorry, I can't remember, but it looked horrific). It just appalled me because I don't look upon convicts whose lives should be risked like that for other people's entertainment; I don't believe that their rights are subordinate to non-offenders.
I should acknowledge the other cultural differences though - these prisoners were on death row, in a prison where "life means life" (news reporter's words). The death penalty was abolished in the UK some decades ago. Does this affect your views on the convicts, US citizens? Is it OK for them to be used like this for entertainment even if they risk their lives because they are on Death Row?
I am not overlooking the fact that most prisoners volunteer; thanks for telling me that, and that it probably does fill up a very tedious, boring time for them. It was the violence I objected to, because it seemed inhumane regardless of these people's backgrounds.  
I'm also glad to hear that young people are strongly opposed to bullfighting in Spain and Portugal, but I understand supporters if you have been brought up in that culture - much like the Foxhunting debates last year. Lots of people in my area (Lincolnshire) went on hunts and campaigned for the hunts and we would never agree on it, because we'd had very different experiences.
Anyway, I'd be glad to see what you think about the rodeos now you know a little more about them. I do think the News portrayed them in the worst light - but again that can be explained by our culture.
Thanks, 
KittyCatty


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## Chaska Ñawi

Before we get veer off any deeper into the issue of bull-fighting, let me mention that there already are any number of threads on this issue.

In this thread especially, the topic was discussed up one side and down the other before the bull was finally and mercifully dispatched.

I'm not clear from your post as to whether the prisoners were doing this for their own entertainment, or whether this was being televised for entertainment outside the walls.  Could anyone explain further?


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## ewhite

If KittyCatty and I have watched the same TV show, the prison rodeo is held yearly at Angola prison in Louisiana. As far as I understand it, participation on the prisoners' part is voluntary. I sincerely doubt if (even in Angola, Louisiana, one of the most notorious prisons in the U.S.) an inmate can be forced to participate in a rodeo, or any other life-threatening activity.

Insofar as assuming that they are putting their lives at risk to entertain other people, I imagine they are also putting their lives at risk because many of the people who end up serving life sentences in Louisiana or any other state are the kind of people who enjoy taking risks, even life-threatening ones. I have known a number of people who have spent considerable amounts of time in prison, and one thing they all agree on is how very boring it can be.

I really don't understand this part of your post:


> these prisoners were on death row, in a prison where "life means life" (news reporter's words). The death penalty was abolished in the UK some decades ago. Does this affect your views on the convicts, US citizens? Is it OK for them to be used like this for entertainment even if they risk their lives because they are on Death Row?



I doubt if Death Row prisoners would be allowed in the rodeo, since Death Row implies segregation from other prisoners. The quote "life means life" implies to me that they were serving life sentences, without much chance of parole. It just might be that such men would enjoy the thrill of participating in a rodeo, just as much as the professional and amateur rodeo riders out in the world do. Perhaps they are not being used. Perhaps, as I remember some of the Angola inmates claiming, they are taking control over what uncontrolled portion of their life is left to them.


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## GenJen54

Before I can opine further, I would like to know more about the actual TV show KittyKatty saw. My state has a very large Prison Rodeo each year, and from what I understand, many of the participants were "seasoned" cowboys (not necessarily from the rodeao circuit, but at least experienced riders and/or ranchers) before being thrown into the "big house." 

This particular state prison where the annual rodeo is held is a Maximum Secuity Prison, and prisoners there compete against inmates who are brought in from lesser institutions. The rodeo is open to the public, and is held completely inside prison walls, which provides a "unique" opportunity for members of the general population to see life "behind bars." (So says the promotional information).

Here is what the website of the city where the prison is located has to say:

_This rodeo isn’t only for XXXXX State Penitentiary rough riders--it features inmate cowboys from correctional facilities across [State] and free cowboys from the IPRA. It’s where real life tough-as-nails cowpokes compete for big thrills and medium-sized bucks. It features thrill-a-minute, death defying acts that we’ve all come to know and love: calf roping and bull riding, steer wrestling and barrel racing, and, of course, grandstanding._​ 
This rodeo also features an event where a $100 bill (about 4 months' "prison" salary) is placed in the horn of a wild bull. Prisoners then have the opportunity "chase" the bull in the hopes of pulling the money off of its horn. A bit gladiatorial, perhaps, but aren't most bloodsports like that in their own way?​ 
I also read where they may open this year's rodeo up to female contestants.​ 
I don't know what the TV documentary said. It seems from everything I have read about it, and everything I KNOW about it (admittedly not much), everyone is a *willing* participant.

*Edit*:  For the record, my state, which just attained actual statehood 100 years ago, was, until two years ago, one of only two states in the entire US to still allow cock-fighting.  Our legislature, after great pressure from the people, finally banned it.  It is still a contentious issue, however, and one can still pass by cock-farms in many of the more rural parts of the state.  If I understand the law correctly, people can raise fighting cocks, but the actual fights cannot take place within state lines.​


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## Fernando

I am not certain that that is off-topic or not, but I find similar pleasure in the harm of others in TV scenes about catastrophes.

At least in Spanish TV there are many programs that show:

- Car crashes
- Police pursuits
- Accidents with children
- Natural catastrophes

Many videos are supplied by anonimous, common people with portable cameras.

In many of the events people get injured or even killed. I do not find much difference with the show KittyCatty is telling.


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## la reine victoria

GenJen, your account reminds me of the old days in England when the public were allowed into the Bethlehem Mental Asylum (commonly known as "Bedlam") to gawp at the "madness" of the inmates.

I am in no way criticising the American culture of Prison Rodeos, it's  just distasteful to those of us in the UK who aren't used to such things.

Prisoners should be locked away and kept apart in their "prison world" - not put on show for public entertainment.  




LRV


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## Outsider

What moral difference do you find between watching a group of inmates risk their lives in a rodeo, and watching a group of free cowboys risk their lives in a rodeo, *La Reine Victoria*?


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## french4beth

> Prisoners should be locked away and kept apart in their "prison world" - not put on show for public entertainment.


The Queen has spoken!  Out of sight, out of mind?

I don't think that these events are a 'dog and pony show' (pardon my pun).


> The Angola Prison Rodeo is a professionally produced rodeo... with professional rodeo stock contractors to provide the rodeo stock used in events; professional judges... objectively judge each event... to ensure inmate participant safety... full complement of emergency services personnel are on-site to provide medical assistance to inmates and spectators.


 
In addition:


> What began 40 years ago as a "fun" thing by a handful of rodeo-loving inmates and employees is now big business.  Proceeds from the Angola Prison Rodeo cover rodeo expenses and supplement the Louisiana State Penitentiary Inmate Welfare Fund which provides for* inmate educational* and recreational *supplies*.


http://www.angolarodeo.com/history.htm


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## Outsider

I was wondering where they'd got that name from... 



> In 1880, Major James purchased an 8,000-acre plantation in West Feliciana Parish called Angola (named after the area in Africa where the former slaves came from).  He began keeping some inmates there at what used to be the Old Slave Quarters, which later became Camp A.
> 
> Louisiana State Penitentiaty's website


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## GenJen54

One might also keep in mind that the U.S. is still, relatively, a very "young" country (230 years).  The "barbarism" of rodeo - whether in or out of a prison - is still very much a vestige of our Wild West days, which were not that far long ago.


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## ewhite

Now, hold on there just one minute, GenJen. My qualifications as a westerner are limited to a week spent in Lincoln, New Mexico, and another in Cody, Wyoming, and I don't find rodeo "barbaric". A bit overly macho, perhaps, but being a cowboy is a macho kind of thing.

It seems some of the posters find it hard to believe that the prisoners enjoy and look forward to competing in the rodeo, but I still imagine that this is so. 

Comparisons to the gentry watching the loonies in Victorian Britain are a bit odd. Being entertainment by tragedy is a bit more--how shall I put it--_uncivilized_ than being entertained by shows of athletic skill.


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## GenJen54

> My qualifications as a westerner are limited to a week spent in Lincoln, New Mexico, and another in Cody, Wyoming, and I don't find rodeo "barbaric".


 
I don't necessarily find rodeo barbaric, either, being qualified as a 30++ year "westerner," livin' right in the heart of "rodeo" country. I was simply mirroring the stated impressions of others. 

There's an interesting narrated photo essay about the rodeo on THIS site, which runs like a small "documentary."

On a bit of an off-topic note, several U.S. prisons run service animal training programs. Professional dog trainers work with prisoners to habilitate and train dogs to become service animals for the handicapped.  These are very worthwhile programs.


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## ewhite

Thanks for the link, GenJen. It gives such a clear view of the reasons why inmates participate in the rodeo.


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## la reine victoria

Outsider said:
			
		

> What moral difference do you find between watching a group of inmates risk their lives in a rodeo, and watching a group of free cowboys risk their lives in a rodeo, *La Reine Victoria*?


 


I really can't answer that question Outsider. We just don't have rodeos of any kind in the UK, thus I have never seen one.

Of course I have seen a cowboy rodeo on television, the famous Canadian Calgary Rodeo.

Morally, I find it abhorrent that criminals should be allowed to entertain the public by indulging in bull fighting. They have been imprisoned as a punishment for their crimes. They should be kept out of sight.

As for the poor bulls, they should be left in peace to graze in open meadows, serving their "ladies" when required - not subjected to the taunts of criminals in the confines of a prison. 

As for prisoners having their lives of boredom being "brightened up" by such a gross event . . . . . . . . words fail me.  UK prisoners have every possible amenity available to them to ensure that they aren't bored.  Some of us think the facilities available to them are far more than they deserve.  The rate of re-offending and re-imprisonment would indicate that many of them prefer a life in prison in exchange for their freedom.


LRV


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## moodywop

> A bit overly macho, perhaps


 
I can't see what's so macho about this:

_"cattle prods are often used to repeatedly shock the bulls as they stand trapped in the bucking chute"_

_"In order for a calf roper to become proficient he must spend a great deal of time practicing. Baby calves sold to the practice pens are roped over and over until they are injured or killed." _

(from an article by a veterinarian who used to take part in rodeos and has come to the conclusion that "without torture, there can be no rodeo")
http://www.sharkonline.org/abuseinherent.mv

Or about these scenes:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=rodeo_cruelty

(From an interview with Dr. C.G. Haber, a veterinarian who worked for 30 years as a meat inspector in slaughterhouses) _Toughened as he was to animal suffering, the condition of animals from rodeos sickened him. He described them as "so extensively bruised that the only areas in which the skin was attached (to the flesh) were the head, neck, leg, and belly. ... I have seen animals," he said, "with six to eight ribs broken from the spine and at times, puncturing the lungs. I have seen as much as two to three gallons of free blood accumulated under the detached skin. Bullfights are merciful compared to rodeos. It's high time this cruel sport be outlawed in the United States"_


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## danielfranco

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> The rate of re-offending and re-imprisonment would indicate that many of them prefer a life in prison in exchange for their freedom.
> LRV



And I thought it was the psycho-babble process where a person perceives prision as a self-contained universe where he understands the rules and can find his niche much easier than in the real world, and so he adopts an "institutionalized mind-set", and that's why he goes back into prison...
I guess I'm too naive and believed all that crap...


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## moodywop

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> As for prisoners having their lives of boredom being "brightened up" by such a gross event . . . . . . . . words fail me.
> 
> LRV


 
Not only that. More food for thought:

_It's laughable that prison officials used the rodeo to "rehabilitate" criminals. If anything, it compounded the likelihood that they would act violently again: a study conducted by Northeastern University and the Massachusetts SPCA found that people who abuse animals are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against humans. The FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals regularly appears in its records of serial rapists and murderers. _
(from _The Houstonian Online)_


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## KittyCatty

Hello, I didn't see a TV show as such, it was on the News. I can't remember whether it was BBC or ITV, but I doubt very much if anyone in the US has seen this programme! Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I did write down as much as I could remember from the article. As I said before, I think that the facts may have been distorted for the worst-possible betrayal of the rodeo, and the facts seem not to be true of most US rodeos. However, I agree with LRV, the news article and the principles of the rodeo shocked me in the same way. I can't remember which one it was, or which state but chances are that it wasn't the ones you have told me about that are different.Thanks for all your replies and sorry for not getting back to you sooner.


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## Hakro

The prison rodeos may be cruel; I've never seen any. The bullfighting may be cruel; how many of you that are against bullgfighting have ever seen one?
In my opinion the most cruel sports game is not the rodeo nor the bullfight but American football.
American football isn't cruel for animals, it's cruel for human beings.
Don't tell me that those boys there are volunteered - they are just as volunteered as the bulls: that's their life, that's all they have, and they believe that this is where they can show their power.
On the other hand, how many bullfighters have died during the last hundred years? And how many football players?


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## maxiogee

But, Hakro, in American Football, as in boxing, those in the arena are volunteering their involvement who ought to be fully aware of the possible consequences of their participation. That they are not fully aware is their lapse.


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## Hakro

maxiogee said:
			
		

> But, Hakro, in American Football, as in boxing, those in the arena are volunteering their involvement who ought to be fully aware of the possible consequences of their participation. That they are not fully aware is their lapse.


 As I said _"Don't tell me that those boys there are volunteered"_ - they are not althought they may seem to be.


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## Sallyb36

Hakro said:
			
		

> The prison rodeos may be cruel; I've never seen any. The bullfighting may be cruel; *how many of you that are against bullgfighting have ever seen one?*In my opinion the most cruel sports game is not the rodeo nor the bullfight but American football.
> American football isn't cruel for animals, it's cruel for human beings.
> Don't tell me that those boys there are volunteered - they are just as volunteered as the bulls: that's their life, that's all they have, and they believe that this is where they can show their power.
> On the other hand, how many bullfighters have died during the last hundred years? And how many football players?



I have and it's really horrible.  The bull never stands a chance of surviving, and by the time the matador gets to it it's already half dead from the picador and the bandaleros.  It is one of the most barbaric "sports" i've ever seen.


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## Fernando

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> bandaleros.


"Banderilleros".


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## GenJen54

> In my opinion the most cruel sports game is not the rodeo nor the bullfight but American football.
> American football isn't cruel for animals, it's cruel for human beings.
> Don't tell me that those boys there are volunteered - they are just as volunteered as the bulls: that's their life, that's all they have, and they believe that this is where they can show their power.



Before I expound upon the ignorance of this off-topic statement, perhaps you would like to clarify - by starting a new thread - where you came up with this?  Most of the men you see in American Football today get into it when they are around twelve or thirteen.  They start in youth programs.  Those who prove themselves to be good at the sport, make it on to high school, and then if good enough, can play in college on a scholarship.  Those who prove outstanding in college then go on to the professional level.  Those who are not good enough to make it to the pros at least have, in many cases, a college education to fall back on.  You cannot say this for players of other sports.

While it's true that those players who come economically disadvantaged means may aspire to football as a "way out," does that make their pursuits less noble, especially if they do well?  Others who come from similar backgrounds also aspire to be gansta rappers, and/or drug dealers?  Which is the better career choice?

Boxing, on the other hand, is, as I learned from THIS thread, much more exploitative.


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## Hakro

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Before I expound upon the ignorance of this off-topic statement, perhaps you would like to clarify - by starting a new thread - where you came up with this?


 The idea wasn't originally mine. I read it in James A. Michener's book Iberia. He had, in my opinion, very good arguments when comparing American football and bullfighting.


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## Sallyb36

gracias Fernando


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