# French: avec



## Rallino

Good evening everyone.

I was discussing about languages with a Brazilian friend. We noticed that in all romance languages the preposition "with" is similar.

Italian: con
Spanish: con
Portuguese: com
Romanian: cu

French: *avec* 

I made some search about it but I couldn't manage to find anything.

Maybe you can provide me with some information. =)

Thank you in advance!

Cheers!


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## strad

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/avec

Old French avoec, avuec from Vulgar Latin aboc, abhoc, a Frankish corruption of Latin apud hoc (“‘with this, near this, close to this’”). Used as a replacement of Latin _cum_ "with" in Merovingian and Carolingian documents.

And with is not a variation of "cum" in all romance languages.  With is "amb" in Catalan and Occitan, for example.


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## Rallino

Oh I see! Thanks very much for the links!


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## swift

Bonsoir,

Peut-être aimeriez-vous connaître l'étymologie que le CNRTL en offre. Il s'agit d'une source largement plus sérieuse que Wikipedia.



> Du lat. *_apud-hŏque_ devenu *_apu-hŏque,_ dans lequel l' s'est fermé en [w], lequel est ensuite tombé devant l'accent; d'où *_apŏque_ qui a donné régulièrement en a.fr. _avuec_ (exemples ds T.-.L. et Gdf. _Compl._). _Cf._ l'a.fr. _o(d)_ « avec », lui aussi issu du lat. _apud._ L'hyp. d'une formation à partir de *_ab hoc,_ *_abhŏque _(Bl.-W.5, _EWFS_2, Bourc. 1967, § 317c) fait difficulté sur le plan phonét. car le _b_ intervocalique se serait amuï au contact de l'élément vocalique suivant (Fouché, p. 639); en outre l'étymol. *_ab hoc_ > _avec_ ne trouve aucun appui, ni dans le lat. de la Gaule, ni en a.fr. : aucun exemple où _ab_ marque la concomitance d'égalité ou signifie « outre », « de plus »; il y a lieu de douter que _ab_ ait eu en Gaule assez de force pour donner naissance à une combinaison nouvelle et aussi vigoureuse. Le sort de _ab_ dans les lang. rom. s'oppose à cette supposition (G. Löfgren, _op. cit.,_ p. 140).
> 
> http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/avec




Bonne soirée !


swift


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## Alxmrphi

So does the cognate still exist in a related form possibly with a different meaning, or did *avec* completely replace it?


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## CapnPrep

Alxmrphi said:


> So does the cognate still exist in a related form possibly with a different meaning, or did *avec* completely replace it?


Are you talking about _od_? It doesn't exist at all anymore.


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## Alxmrphi

Sorry no what I meant was, usually in looking at languages and cognates with semantic change sometimes they're used in expressions / parts of other words for example in Italian there is a verb _*con*dividere_ (to share) where the function of 'con' can be seen to be linked to the idea (share _with_ someone), and also examples like _*con*versare_ (talk _with_) but obviously *con *is still alive and well in modern Italian, so I was wondering what _Latin cum_ developed into in French and if there are still any remnants today in other words or did the corruption of *abud hoc* completely take over?


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## swift

Bonsoir Alxmrphi,

Bien sûr, il y a des mots très courants comme "conjuguer", "conjugal", et même "cognat" (du latin cum et nomen .)

Voici d'autres exemples :



> – Les mots dérivés formés à l'aide du préfixe co- (cum, avec) notamment : coefficient, coentreprise, coenzyme, coéquipier, coercitif (ive), coercition, coexistence, coexister, coextensif (ive), incoercibilité, incoercible.
> 
> _http://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.htmlhttp://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.html_http://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.htmlhttp://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.htmlhttp://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.htmlhttp://monsu.desiderio.free.fr/curiosites/ligat-oe.html


 
Bonne soirée !


swift


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## Alxmrphi

Merci beaucoup, je vois que la coopération du préfixe 'co' est la apparentées.
(Désolé pour la traduction de Google)


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## CapnPrep

swift said:


> et même "cognat" (du latin cum et nomen .)


 Plutôt _co- + (g)natus_…



Alxmrphi said:


> so I was wondering what _Latin cum_ developed into in French and if there are still any remnants today in other words or did the corruption of *abud hoc* completely take over?


_Cum_ should have evolved into _con_ or _com_ in Old French, and in fact these forms are found in texts of this period (alongside the spellings "cum" and "cun"). I don't know for sure why this word fell out of use, but I guess that the ambiguity with _con/com_ (< _quomodo_, = modern French _comme_) and with _con_ (< _cunnus_) must have played a role.


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## xmarabout

The cognat exists in French with three spellings: co-, con- and com-
coexister
condisciple
communion


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## swift

CapnPrep said:


> Plutôt _co- + (g)natus_



Bien sûr ! Je suis navré. Effectivement, en latin le mot *cognatus, -a, -um *est formé à partir de *cum* et *gnatus*, ce dernier étant une forme archaïque de *natus*.

Merci d'avoir signalé cette erreur, CapnPrep !

Bien à vous,


swift


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## Favara

Rallino said:


> Good evening everyone.
> 
> I was discussing about languages with a brazilian friend. We noticed that in all romance languages the preposition "with" is similar.
> 
> Italian: con
> Spanish: con
> Portuguese: com
> Romanian: cu
> 
> French: *avec*
> 
> I made some search about it but I couldn't manage to find anything.


I can't help you with the etimology, but there's also:
Catalan: amb
Occitan: amb
Both more similar to "avec" than to "con/com/cu". Still not _that_ similar, but maybe it helps.


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## swift

Favara said:


> I can't help you with the etimology, but there's also:
> Catalan: amb
> Occitan: amb
> Both more similar to "avec" than to "con/com/cu". Still not _that_ similar, but maybe it helps.



He consultado mis diccionarios de raíces latinas, y no parece haber relación entre el latín _cum_ y el catalán amb. Sólo ofrece _con_ y el prefijo _co-_, en castellano; _con_, en italiano; el prefijo _co-_, en francés, además de _con-, com-, col-, cor-_; y el prefijo _kon-_ en alemán.



> amb
> 
> [979; de l'encreuament de l'ant. _ab_ amb la var. _am_ (alteració davant consonant), der. del ll. _apud_ 'prop, a casa de, en poder de', que en ll. vg. suplantà _cum_ 'amb']
> 
> http://ec.grec.net/lexicx.jsp?GECART=0007137


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## Rallino

I thank you all for all this information you've provided! 

Cheers!


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## merquiades

swift said:


> He consultado mis diccionarios de raíces latinas, y no parece haber relación entre el latín _cum_ y el catalán amb. Sólo ofrece _con_ y el prefijo _co-_, en castellano; _con_, en italiano; el prefijo _co-_, en francés, además de _con-, com-, col-, cor-_; y el prefijo _kon-_ en alemán.


 
Swift. "Amb" doit avoir les mêmes racines que "ambos" en castillian, amb + dos, ambidue en italien.  Désolé de ne pas pouvoir aller plus loin dans ses origines latines.  Bien entendu cela n'a rien à avoir avec les origines du mot "avec" en français "ab hoc".  Salut!


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## CapnPrep

merquiades said:


> Swift. "Amb" doit avoir les mêmes racines que "ambos" en castillian, amb + dos, ambidue en italien.  Désolé de ne pas pouvoir aller plus loin dans ses origines latines.  Bien entendu cela n'a rien à avoir avec les origines du mot "avec" en français "ab hoc".  Salut!


En fait, _ambos_ vient du latin _ambo_, et cela n'a rien à voir avec les origines du mot _amb_, qui comme _avec_ vient de _apud_. Les étymologies indiquées par swift sont correctes (ou en tous cas ce sont les meilleurs hypothèses).


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## Ajura

Actually it is only Arpitan,Rhaeto Romance,GalloItalic dialects and Veneto are the ones that maintained the con in galloromance the Oil which includes Picard and Standard French and Oc which includes Catalan and Gascon lost the con.


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## berndf

Ajura said:


> Actually it is only *Arpitan*,Rhaeto Romance,GalloItalic dialects and Veneto are the ones that maintained the con in galloromance the Oil which includes Picard and Standard French and Oc which includes Catalan and Gascon lost the con.


Really? In Savoyard (the closest living Arpitan dialect to where I am living), I know only "avouéc" (pronounced something like [a'we:c], if I remember correctly; you do not get to hear much Savoyard any more). In which dialect would one say "con"? The others you mentioned are all Cis-Alpine dialects (in the case of Rumantsch it is reaching a few kms beyond the main ridge of the Alps; but not very far). Could this be simply Italian influence in those dialects? So, I would not be surprised to find "con" in Aosta valley Arpitan; but then, wouldn't it simply be Italian?


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## Ajura

berndf said:


> Really? In Savoyard (the closest living Arpitan dialect to where I am living), I know only "avouéc" (pronounced something like [a'we:c], if I remember correctly; you do not get to hear much Savoyard any more). In which dialect would one say "con"? The others you mentioned are all Cis-Alpine dialects (in the case of Rumantsch it is reaching a few kms beyond the main ridge of the Alps; but not very far). Could this be simply Italian influence in those dialects? So, I would not be surprised to find "con" in Aosta valley Arpitan; but then, wouldn't it simply be Italian?


Regarding arpitan you will find the word con in this example.
http://stats.wikimedia.org/AST/TablesWikipediaFRP.htm


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## DeRaquis

Are there any words in any romance languages that are derived from the preposition _apud_?


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## CapnPrep

DeRaquis said:


> Are there any words in any romance languages that are derived from the preposition _apud_?


Yes… and I think they are all mentioned in this thread already.


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