# Pain, punish, effort



## ThomasK

When looking at the English "pain" from an etymological point of view, one could say everything starts with Latin "poena", punishment, and moves to difficulty, woe, suffering, and then even moves on to exerting/ straining oneself, according to etymonline.com:
pain (v.) 


c. 1300, "to exert or strain oneself, strive; endeavor," from Old French _pener_ (v.) "to hurt, cause pain," from _peine_, and from Middle English _peine_ (n.); (...)
pain (n.)
late 13c., "punishment," especially for a crime; (...) from Old French _peine_ "difficulty, woe, suffering, punishment, Hell's torments" (11c.), from Latin _poena_ "punishment, penalty, (...)"​
Do you happen to have any recognizable links between "pain" and "punishment" in your language, or others?


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## 810senior

No relevancy in Japanese

*Pain:* 痛み_itami _deriving from 痛む_itam-u_(to hurt, to go off)
*Punishment:* お仕置き_oshioki_


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## ThomasK

So the pain refers to the cause, doesn't it? That (pain caused by hurt, being wounded) might be a parallel with _pain_ as caused by punishment (Lat. _poena_).


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## apmoy70

Greek:

Pain: MoGr masc. noun *«πόνος»* [ˈponos] < Classical deverbal masc. noun *«πόνος»  pónŏs* --> _(hard) labour, effort, struggle, sorrow, pain_ < Classical deponent v. *«πένομαι» pénŏmai̯* --> _to exert oneself, toil, work, prepare, provide_ (PIE *(s)penh₁- _to stretch, weave_ cf Proto-Germanic *spinnaną > Ger./Dt. spinnen, Eng. spin, D. spinde).
Pain (v.): MoGr v. *«πονώ»* [poˈno] and uncontracted *«πονάω»* [poˈna.o] < Classical denominative v. *«πονέω/πονῶ» pŏnéō* (uncontracted)/*pŏnô* (contracted) --> _to work hard, suffer toil, suffer from illness, be sick, have a pain_ < Classical masc. noun *«πόνος»* (see earlier).

Punishment: MoGr fem. noun *«τιμωρία»* [timoˈɾi.a] < Classical fem. noun *«τιμωρία» tĭmōríā*, earlier (and poetic form) *«τιμαορία» tĭmăŏríā* --> lit. _preserving or guarding honour_ later _punishing_, from **τιμα-ϝορ-ία* a univerbation of the Classical deverbal fem. noun *«τιμή» tīmḗ* --> _estimate, price, value, honour, honorary office, compensation, penalty, retribution_ < Classical v. *«τίω» tíō* --> _to honour, estimate, appreciate_ (PIE *kʷeh₁-i- _to observe, hold back, honour_ cf Skt. चेतति (ceyati), _to observe_, Proto-Slavic *kajati > BCS kajati/кајати, _to repent_).
Punish (v.): MoGr v. *«τιμωρώ»* [timoˈɾo] < Classical v. *«τιμωρέω/τιμωρῶ» tĭmōréō* (uncontracted)/*tĭmōrô* (contracted).

Effort: MoGr fem. noun *«προσπάθεια»* [prosˈpaθi.a] and dialectal [prosˈpaθ͡ça] < Classical deverbal fem. noun *«προσπάθεια» prŏspắtʰei̯ā* --> lit. _passionate attachment_, later _effort, (Philosoph.) clinging of the soul to the body and its passions_ < compound; prefix, preposition and adverb *«πρός» prós* --> _furthermore, thereto, from, by, at, to, towards, in face of_ (PIE *proti- _against_ cf Skt. प्रति (prati), _about, to_, Proto-Slavic *pretivъ, _against_ > OCS против, _against, opposite_) + Classical neut. noun *«πάθος» pắtʰŏs* --> _passion, suffering_ (the word is claimed by two schools of thought: one claims that it's from PIE *kʷentʰ- _to suffer_ with possible cognate the Lith. kentėti, _to suffer, endure_, and the other that it's from PIE *bʰendʰ- _to bind_ with cognate the Lith. adj. bendras, _common, mutual_).
To make effort, try: MoGr v. *«προσπαθώ»* [prospaˈθo] < Classical v. *«προσπαθέω/προσπαθῶ» prŏspătʰéō* (uncontracted)/*prŏspatʰô* --> _to become susceptible to, feel passionate love_. The modern meaning is mediaeval.

So in Greek, pain is related to physical labour, punishment to honour, and effort to passion.


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## ThomasK

There is a reminder of effort in *, *so it seems to me. But I am very surprised by (and interested in) the link with German/ Dutch _spinnen_...

*τιμωρία: *this link with honour is interesting as well. I have been thinking of Latin _timere_, to fear; respect and fear might be linked as well (_awe_). Not sure though.

*προσπάθεια: *as I see there is a reference to "exert oneself, toil, ...", etc., at *πόνος, I* venture upon a hypothesis: could this form bes newer and more "explicit", whereas there is a more general idea of effort in languages expressed by the concept/ words "work", "toil", "strive", "try"? Could you imagine that to be the case in Greek?


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## Dymn

In Catalan _pena _is more often associated with sadness and pity (_quina pena!_: "what a pity!", _em fa pena_: "I feel for him") rather than punishment. The general word for "punishment" is _càstig_, but _pena _is used in some judicial terms (_pena de mort_: "death penalty"). _Penós _could be translated as "tough", "pitiful" or "awful". The word for "pain" is _dolor_, and "effort" is _esforç_. Spanish follows a similar scheme.


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## ThomasK

*Pena*: regret or pity might have to do with pain, and pain might be linked indirectly to punishment (pain caused by punishment)...

Penos might then be linked with tough, requiring effort, perhaps...

As for "effort" it might be necessary to look at it in a broader perspective, as I pointed out with regard to Greek. Maybe the original words for effort refer to trying, working, striving...


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## Dymn

Well, _esforç_ has no secret (same origin as English and French _effort_, Spanish _esfuerzo_, Italian _sforzo_, etc.): _ex- _"out" + _fortiare _(_fortis_: "strong"). 

Another less common synonym of "to effort" is _escarrassar-se_, which apparently comes from _escarràs _(someone who has to do all the heavy work). Or _afanyar-se_, which nowadays means "to hurry", apparently from a Proto-Romance *_afannare_, "to get tired".


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## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> So the pain refers to the cause, doesn't it? That (pain caused by hurt, being wounded) might be a parallel with _pain_ as caused by punishment (Lat. _poena_).


Perhaps that's what it might have been, but all I wanted to say is that it has *nothing *to do with 'punishment' *etymologically*.


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## ilocas2

No relevancy in Spanish:

pain - *dolor*
punishment - *castigo*


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## Nawaq

Pain, the common word would be _douleur_ I guess.

_Punition_, "punishment"

Capital punishment is "_peine capitale_", _peine_ here in the sens of a "sanction"

_Peine_ can mean many things if I reckon correctly, moral pain "_tu me fais de la peine_", physical pain "_j'ai de la peine à marcher_" (difficulty to walk because of pain or a disability), "_peine de mort_" here also in the sense of "sanction" so punishment


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## ThomasK

@810senior: I quite understand, thanks. I am also interested in semantic links, suggested/indicated/... by etymology, that's why I asked...

I suppose "castigo" has to do with the English "chastise", some kind of torture used to discipline people, to make them "chaste"....

@Nawaq; 'dolor' indeed, but you also have "mal", don't you? --- But indeed, "peine" has so many meanings indeed. That is one of the reasons why it is so intriguing to me...

If it is correct that "to try" has do with (doing) efforts, then we understand why periods can be trying in English, causing you to do a maximum of efforts, and trials (efforts?) are ways to determine punishments


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## Nawaq

ThomasK said:


> @Nawaq; 'dolor' indeed, but you also have "mal", don't you? --- But indeed, "peine" has so many meanings indeed. That is one of the reasons why it is so intriguing to me...



Hi Thomas,

Yes, _mal_, like _peine_ it can mean a few things. That's why I said _douleur_ would be the common word. 
Like in _avoir de la peine à_, you can say _avoir du mal à_, "to have trouble/difficulty to do something", so you have to make extra efforts in these kind of situations. _Mal_ is also translation as "evil", and then the pain, "_j'ai mal à la tête_", so yeah...


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## ThomasK

Very interesting link: _j'ai du mal à_ ... It reminds me of trying, doing efforts!


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## Armas

Finnish:

_kipu_ "pain", related to _kipeä_ "ill, sick, sore"
_rangaista_ "to punish"
_ponnistelu, ponnistukset_ "effort", from _ponsi_ "vigor"
_yritys_ "effort, endeavor, attempt, try"

There is one curious word though:
_vaiva_ "bother, trouble" and "ailment"
_nähdä vaivaa_ (lit. "to see bother/trouble") "to make efforts"
_selkävaiva_ < _selkä_ "back" + _vaiva_ "ailment"
Adjectives:
_vaivalloinen_ "painstaking, troublesome, arduous"
_vaivainen_ "suffering from pain, ailment" and "measly, pitiful, miserable"
Verb:
_vaivata_ "to trouble, to bother", "to ail", "to knead"


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## ThomasK

So the conclusion would be no Obvious link, except with "vaiva". But why is it curious to you? Uncommon?

I find the link effort/ trying confirmed (_yritys_), but strictly speaking it is logical, so it seems to me. Yet, I had not associated them spontaneously, nor had I ever seen the two combined; only "to strive" and "to try"...


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## Armas

By curious I meant it has this link whereas those other words don't. (Although, the word _ponsi_ seems a curious one, but that is another thread.)


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## ThomasK

I see. The main point for me is always: could these etymological links refer to some underlying (universal ???) relation? There might be one hint so far: *pain and its cause* seem linked in some cases (French, Japanese), and *pain and effort* may sometimes be related too. But I suppose that is at a very deep layer: new terms may have been introduced later on. Like this idea of effort: when you refer to 'try/ trial' there seems to be a link, not with _effort_ as such(where the focus is on strength).  _[Should you be able to refer to websites or ... on such things, I am interested!]_


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## 123xyz

Macedonian:

болка - pain (related to "боли", "to hurt", and "болен", "ill, sick")
казна - punishment (related to "казни", "to punish")
труд - effort (related to "труден", "pregnant" and "се труди", to make an effort)

Meanwhile, the word "се мачи" can mean both "to undergo torture" and "to make an effort". It is used for efforts which are perceived as particularly burdensome, although they still couldn't be defined as torture inflicted on the person carrying them out by the person requiring or assigning them. This is the only semantic connection in Macedonian that might be relevant to your question that I can think of. 

Meanwhile, the Macedonian "казна" is cognate (via borrowing, of course) to Romanian "caznă", "torture, effort", "căzni", "to torture", and "se căzni" (the reflexive form of "căzni"), "to make an effort" (again, this refers to a particularly unpleasant effort), so there is a connection between these two concepts between these two languages, although there may be no connection within either one of them, at least as far as this root (казн-) is concerned.


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## ThomasK

123xyz said:


> Macedonian:
> 
> болка - pain (related to "боли", "to hurt", and "болен", "ill, sick") --- Could this be linked with Latin _dolor_?
> казна - punishment (related to "казни", "to punish")
> труд - effort (related to "труден", "pregnant" and "се труди", to make an effort)
> 
> Meanwhile, the word "се мачи" can mean both "to undergo torture" and "to make an effort". It is used for efforts which are perceived as particularly burdensome, although they still couldn't be defined as torture inflicted on the person carrying them out by the person requiring or assigning them. This is the only semantic connection in Macedonian that might be relevant to your question that I can think of. Something interesting seems to be that it has the two meanings: because both imply pain, self-inflicted or otherwise? Could there be a link with a "higher" objective, i.e. a (good ???) cause for inflicting the pain???
> 
> Meanwhile, the Macedonian "казна" is cognate (via borrowing, of course) to Romanian "caznă", "torture, effort", "căzni", "to torture", and "se căzni" (the reflexive form of "căzni"), "to make an effort" (again, this refers to a particularly unpleasant effort), so there is a connection between these two concepts between these two languages, although there may be no connection within either one of them, at least as far as this root (казн-) is concerned. I am not sure I understand this: "connection within either of them ([those languages?]" [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot though!


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## ThomasK

I have not mentioned _*penance*_ yet, but that might be the link between (self-inflicted) pain, effort/ trying and punishment. Does _penance_ fit in etymologically somehow in your language, I wonder...
In some languages there is something like _*boete/ Buße*_ for that, and the root "bat", meaning "good", might imply that even pain is meant to make you better. So some kind of etymological link perhaps, but mainly a semantic one, or a cultural one...  _(Which some people might recognize as a religious slogan, whereas I think fashion, etc., may cause the same kind of behaviour, induced again by a "higher" [mythical] objective)_


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I have not mentioned _*penance*_ yet, but that might be the link between (self-inflicted) pain, effort/ trying and punishment. Does _penance_ fit in etymologically somehow in your language, I wonder...


Not in Greek:

MoGr *«εξιλέωση»* [ek͡siˈle.osi] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«ἐξιλέωσις» ĕk͡sĭléōsis* (nom. sing.), *«ἐξιλεώσεως» ĕk͡sĭlĕṓsĕōs* (gen. sing.) --> _propitiation, atonement, penance_ (alt. *«ἐξιλασμός» ĕk͡sĭlasmós* (masc.) & (poetic fem.) *«ἐξίλασις» ĕk͡sílasis*) < compound; prefix, preposition, and adv. *«ἐκ» ĕk*, *«ἐξ» ĕk͡s* when the next word begins with vowel (PIE *h₁eǵʰ-s-/*h₁eḱ-s- _out_ cf Lat. ex, ec-) + Classical deverbal 3rd decl. fem. noun *«ἱλέωσις» hĭléōsis* --> _propitiation_ < Classical deponent v. *«ἱλάσκομαι» hĭlắskŏmai̯* --> _to propitiate, appease, reconcile_ (PIE *si-slh₂-ske-/sko- < *selh₂- _to reconcile. _The Greek word presents many innovations that make it difficult to find cognates in other IE languages; one possible cognate is the Proto-Germanic *sælīgaz > Ger. selig, Dt. zalig, Eng. silly)


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## Nawaq

ThomasK said:


> I have not mentioned _*penance*_ yet [...]



_Pénitence_ in *French*


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## mataripis

Do you mean suffering and difficulties? It is one word in Tagalog and it is Binata with root word bata meaning extra effort and endurance.


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## ger4

Russian _страдать/stradat'_ can be translated as 'to suffer'. According to this Wiktionary article, it is derived from *_страдати/stradati_ ('to try', 'to strive'). A Latvian cognate, _strādāt_, means 'to work'.


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## ThomasK

Suffering, striving, trying, working: interesting links. Could it be that Western civilisation implicitly considers life a fight - and that good mostly comes from/ does not come without effort, striving, trying, hardship and pain? I suppose I am going way too far when formulating this hypothesis, but certain links might hint at that. Working has often been viewed, I think, as suffering as well - as is suggested in Genesis, I suppose. _(I guess I am suffering from wishful thinking again as there is no etymological evidence to sustain that...But one would be inclined to think so when reading about some links... )_


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