# Indo-European languages: band, close, bind



## Alijsh

In Persian *band* is present stem of *bastan*: to close, to shut; to bind, to fasten; to pack. How about it in your Indo-European language? 

dar râ beband -> close/shut the door

I'll later add more examples and derived words from this verb.


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## Frank06

Hi, 

In *Dutch*, we have words like 'binden', to bind, 'band', a strap, a tie (also more fig. as in familieband), 'bond', league. The basic meaning of these words goes back to the basic meaning of the PIE root *bhendh-, namely to bind, to tie.

I can't think of a meaning of 'b*nd' in Dutch which specifically refers to 'to close' or 'closure'; that would be '(af)sluiten'.

Apart from the meaning 'to close', I can see only one other _similarity_ between Dutch 'binden' and Persian 'bastan'*, viz. 'coagulate', 'congeal'. If I understood well, 'bastan' (with this particular meaning) is used in connection with a.o. jelly and ice(cream) (bastani), in Dutch we use 'binden' for sauces. Though the processes used to 'bastan' icecream and 'binden' a sauce are very different, the meaning looks similar to me.

Groetjes,

Frank

* I deliberatly linked to the old Steingass dictionary, 1892.


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## Outsider

In Portuguese, there is *banda* and *bando*. Also the related words *bandeira* and *bandido*.

banda: _band, strap, stripe; edge; musical band._

bandeira: _flag._

bando: _flock (of birds), gang._

bandido: _bandit, outlaw._​The other roots I do not recognize. However, we do have the words *bastar* "to be enough, to suffice" and *bastante* "enough, a lot, very".


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## Whodunit

In German, we have *binden* (to tie/to bind), *Band* (conveyor belt/tape/volume), and Soßen*binder *(sauce thickener?).

I don't know a word that has much to do with _to close_ in German, but I can tell you that the Old Indian (that's the language, according to my etymological dictionary, that summarizes the Indo-Aryan languages in their oldest forms) word for "to bind" is _badhnáti_ or _bandhati_ (he ties [up]) and the one for "tie" (as a noun) is _bandhá-h_. In the Avestan language, they used the prefix _banda-_ to refer to chains. In Gujarati, they use બાંધવું (baaNdhvuN) for "to tie/bind".

I can't find any similar word in Latin, but I'd like to know where French _bande_ and _bandage_ (which we use in German, too) are derived from.


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## linguist786

Whodunit said:


> In Gujarati, they use બાંધવું (baaNdhvuN) for "to tie/bind".


Correct.

baandhvuN (બાંધવું) = to tie/bind
and also:
bandh karvuN (બંધ કરવું) = to close

"karvuN" is the equivalent of the Hindi/Urdu "karnaa" and the Persian "kardan".

"bandh" on its own (in Gujarati as well as Hindi/Urdu) means "closed". So "bandh karvuN" (Gujarati) or in Hindi/Urdu: "bandh karnaa" means "to close something" (lit. "to do closed"). I think the Bengali equivalent to "bandh" is "bondho".

Also, the Hindi/Urdu equivalent of the Gujarati "baandhvuN" is "baandhnaa" (to tie/bind)


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## Frank06

Hi,


Whodunit said:


> I can't find any similar word in Latin,


 
The only reference I could find was of-fend-ix ("das Kinnband an der Priestermünze"), but without further explanation. I am afraid I don't understand it well: PIE bh- > Lat f- is normal, but if offendix would be related to Latin -fend-ere (as in of-fend-), then there is a huge problem.



> but I'd like to know where French _bande_ and _bandage_ (which we use in German, too) are derived from.


According to _Dictionnaire historique de la langue française_ (Rey) it is a loan in Old French (and probably pre-Old French) from Germanic words which go back to PGm. *bind- < PIE *bhendh-. Apparantly it crossed the border between Romance and Germanic languages more than one time: English band < Old French band, bende (OE had bend) < Germanic *bind

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Whodunit

Frank06 said:


> The only reference I could find was of-fend-ix ("das Kinnband an der Priestermünze"), but without further explanation. I am afraid I don't understand it well: PIE bh- > Lat f- is normal, but if offendix would be related to Latin -fend-ere (as in of-fend-), then there is a huge problem.


 
I think Latin _offendere_ goes back to IE *_pent-_ (to step/go), from which German _finden_ (to find) might be derived with the meaning _to come across_.



> According to _Dictionnaire historique de la langue française_ (Rey) it is a loan in Old French (and probably pre-Old French) from Germanic words which go back to PGm. *bind- < PIE *bhendh-. Apparantly it crossed the border between Romance and Germanic languages more than one time: English band < Old French band, bende (OE had bend) < Germanic *bind


 
Interesting. When I saw this thread, I immediately thought where English _band_ (group of musicians) could be derived from and with what explanation it might be akin to IE *_bhendh-_. Here's the answer:



> ... probably via a band of cloth worn as a mark of identification by a group of soldiers or others (cf. Gothic _bandwa_ "a sign"). The extension to "group of musicians" is c.1660, originally musicians attached to a regiment of the army.


 
I thought it was something like "to be tied together to earn one's daily bread".


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## Whodunit

Here's something you might like. On the pages 31 and 32, you'll find a lot of derivatives from IE *_bhendh_.


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## Alijsh

Thanks everybody for contributions.

In Persian, verbs have two stems that are used in conjugation and word building. *Bastan* -> present stem: *band*; past stem: *bast*. As for etymology:

*bast* is from Old Iranian *bas-ta* in which *bas* is evolved form of bad-ta. *bad* is weak form of root *band*.
*band* is from Old Iranian *band-a* which is the stem from root *band*.
In Old Iranian,* bând* is vrddhi of *band*. It must be cognte with French *bande*.

band, apart from being present stem of bastan, is also a noun which means band, lace as in *shoelace* (band-e kafsh), *gardanband* (necklace -> gardan: neck). another word: *dastband* (bracelet; handcuff -> dast: hand);

> from past stem we have these words:
*baste*: past partciple: closed, tied, etc.; also means: package, parcel
*bastegân*: relatives
*bastegi*: reliance
*bastani*: closeable; ice-cream 
*bastebandi*: packing
*bastebandi kardan*: to pack

> From the same root we have also:
*peyvastan*: to join; *peyvand*: bond
*vâbaste*: dependant
*vâbastegi*: dependence
*parvande*: file

There are also other compounds that I pass.

@Frank06
yes, it means congeal: *yakh bastan* (yakh: ice). We also use it for dairy products e.g. yoghurt (mâst), butter (kare). I don't know about sauce but I think it's possible to say.


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## Frank06

Hi,

Just a few additions and comments:


Alijsh said:


> In Old Iranian,* bând* is vrddhi of *band*. It must be cognte with French *bande*. [...] band, apart from being present stem of bastan, is also a noun which means band, lace as in *shoelace* (band-e kafsh), *gardanband* (necklace -> gardan: neck). another word: *dastband* (bracelet; handcuff -> dast: hand);


برده bandeh, slave (<OP bandaka) seems to fit in too.


> yes, it means congeal: *yakh bastan* (yakh: ice). We also use it for dairy products e.g. yoghurt (mâst), butter (kare). I don't know about sauce but I think it's possible to say.


The people I asked don't use 'bastan' for 'binding' sauce and we couldn't find it back in our Persian cooking books. No matter how much I like both the people and (the) Persian cooking (books), I realise that those are not the best (linguistic) points of reference , so I am still curious whether or not it can be used with connection to 'binding a sauce'.



Outsider said:


> we do have the words *bastar* "to be enough, to suffice" and *bastante* "enough, a lot, very".


Apparantly, Pt *bastar* (and bastante) comes from Med. Lat. bastare, which in its turn comes from Greek bastazo. PIE *bh- gives Gr. p (or ph), so no connection with *bhendh-. 
BTW, Cl. Gr. πεισμα (rope) (<*πενθ-σμα) does relate to our *bhendh-.
Pt. *basta* (cordel para segurar o enchimento do colchão) < Germ. *bastjan (see Koebler page 94, the link already given by Whodunit).



Whodunit said:


> I think Latin _offendere_ goes back to IE *_pent-_ (to step/go), from which German _finden_ (to find) might be derived with the meaning _to come across_.


Please forgive me this kind of nitpicking, but -fendere (as in of-fendere, de-fendere) goes back to PIE *gwhen- (to strike, kill), while 'find' indeed relates to PIE *pent-.
Latin of-fend-ix is related to neither *gwhen- nor *pent-. 
-fend- (at least in the word offendix) does seem to go back to *bhendh-.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## albondiga

linguist786 said:


> "bandh" on its own (in Gujarati as well as Hindi/Urdu) means "closed". So "bandh karvuN" (Gujarati) or in Hindi/Urdu: "bandh karnaa" means "to close something" (lit. "to do closed"). I think the Bengali equivalent to "bandh" is "bondho".
> 
> Also, the Hindi/Urdu equivalent of the Gujarati "baandhvuN" is "baandhnaa" (to tie/bind)


 
Is the ending actually "dh" in Hindi?  I had seen "band" in Hindi for "closed"; is this wrong?


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## Alijsh

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just a few additions and comments:
> 
> بنده bandeh, slave (<OP bandaka) seems to fit in too.
> 
> The people I asked don't use 'bastan' for 'binding' sauce and we couldn't find it back in our Persian cooking books. No matter how much I like both the people and (the) Persian cooking (books), I realise that those are not the best (linguistic) points of reference , so I am still curious whether or not it can be used with connection to 'binding a sauce'.


Hi. yes, bande (you had written it barde) means bondman, slave but we use *barde* for saying "slave". Bande is also used as a term for creature agianst God. I don't know it's English equivalent, perhaps servant. In very formal language, bande is a humble term for "I". As for sauce, I think they say "gereftan" i.e. to become thick as it must be. Do you mean this?


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## Alijsh

Frank06 said:


> Apparantly, Pt *bastar* (and bastante) comes from Med. Lat. bastare, which in its turn comes from Greek bastazo. PIE *bh- gives Gr. p (or ph), so no connection with *bhendh-.
> BTW, Cl. Gr. πεισμα (rope) (<*πενθ-σμα) does relate to our *bhendh-.
> Pt. *basta* (cordel para segurar o enchimento do colchão) < Germ. *bastjan (see Koebler page 94, the link already given by Whodunit).


As I said, Persian bast is from Old Iranian bad-ta (d becomes s beside t -> bas-ta). Bad is weak from of band (roots have three forms: weak, guna, vrddhi). I think there must be a similar etymolgy for bastar vs. Persian bastan (-an is infintive ending).


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## Frank06

Hi,
Thanks for your replies and for pointing out my mistake with بنده .
As for your comment quoted below, I don't don't understand very well what you mean:


Alijsh said:


> As I said, Persian bast is from Old Iranian bad-ta (d becomes s beside t -> bas-ta). Bad is weak from of band (roots have three forms: weak, guna, vrddhi). I think there must be a similar etymolgy for bastar vs. Persian bastan (-an is infintive ending).


Yes, I understand what you wrote about the Persian and Old Iranian forms, but I don't understand why you repeated it in connection with my comments on Portuguese 'bastar'. I am not sure what you mean by "I think there must be a similar etymology for bastar vs. Persian bastan".
So, maybe I am missing your point here. If so, please stop reading and accept my apologies (and explain again .

***
Anyway, Portuguese 'bastar' ('ser bastante, suficiente', the word was brought up by Outsider in mail #3) has nothing to do with Persian 'bastan' (or any other IIr. word with band/bad/bast-). 
At least, if I may believe _Dicionário etimológico da língua portuguesa_. And, until I read a better explanation, I do.

Most authors link Lat. bastare to Gr bastazo, some of them refer to post-Latin *basitare (from Lat. basis_ < Gr. _basis). Whatever the verb, we are left with [*edit*] *three *possibilities: 

(1) The link Pt. bastar < Lat. bastare < Gr. bastazo (or < basitare) is wrong. Back to square one.

(2) Since Greek b- comes from PIE *gw^ (g + superscript w, I'll skip the specific circumstances), 'bastazo'/ 'basis' cannot be connected with PIE *bhendh- and hence not with the IIr series bad-/bast-/band-, nor with any other IIr. which starts with a b (<PIE *bh-).

(3) 'Bastazo' is loan (from an Iranian language?) into Greek (or *Med.!* Latin bastare is a loan from ???), but I think you'll have a pretty hard job to proove that.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Outsider

Incidentally, bastar also exists in Spanish (the RAE's dictionary traces it back to Greek _bastázein_), and Italian has bastare.


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## Aleco

*binde* in Norwegian, from Old Norse *binda*.
Swedish: *binda*.

*bånd/band* is the noun, from Old Norse *band*.


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## Lugubert

Aleco said:


> *...*Swedish: *binda*.
> 
> *bånd/band* is the noun, from Old Norse *band*.


In Swedish as well we have _band_ for for agroup of musicians. We don't use any cognate for binding sauces.

An interesting word we borrowed from English is _cummerbund_, the thing you can tie around your waist for use with male formal dress. It's Persian/Indian _kamar_ 'waist' and _band_.

One meaning for Hindi बंध bãndh that I haven't noticed yet in the thread is 'withholding of labour, strike'. 

The mentioned humble Hindi for 'I' = 'slave' is बंदी bandī (from Persian and/or Sanskrit).


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## Alijsh

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for your replies and for pointing out my mistake with بنده .
> ...
> 
> Yes, I understand what you wrote about the Persian and Old Iranian forms, but I don't understand why you repeated it in connection with my comments on Portuguese 'bastar'. I am not sure what you mean by "I think there must be a similar etymology for bastar vs. Persian bastan".
> So, maybe I am missing your point here. If so, please stop reading and accept my apologies (and explain again .
> 
> ***
> Anyway, Portuguese 'bastar' ('ser bastante, suficiente', the word was brought up by Outsider in mail #3) has nothing to do with Persian 'bastan' (or any other IIr. word with band/bad/bast-).


You're welcome. I'm terribly sorry. I thought bastar means bastan. But I found an interesting point: one of the words we have for "sufficient" is "bas". basande: sufficing. Quite close to bastar, isn't it?


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## Frank06

Hi,


Alijsh said:


> You're welcome. I'm terribly sorry. I thought bastar means bastan. But I found an interesting point: one of the words we have for "sufficient" is "bas". basande: sufficing. Quite close to bastar, isn't it?


I feel so pedantic about all this (although I _love_ to look up this kind of stuff). But we have another problem which we have to account for: NPersian bas < Pahl. vas (or 'was', depending on the transcription). No idea where this pahlavi 'v/w' comes from and unfortunately, this Indo-Aryan etymological database is _still_ down.
But when I see such a similarity between two quite different languages, then my first reaction is 'chance similarity'. Anyway, we have to check that database.
As for 'baseh, baseh, be khoda ta'arof nemikonam', ... It was one of the first phrases I activily used in Iran, after only two visits/*diners* .

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Frank06

Hi,


Alijsh said:


> But I found an interesting point: one of the words we have for "sufficient" is "bas". basande: sufficing. Quite close to bastar, isn't it?


From Old Persian *vasiy* (much), Sassaside Pahlavi 'vas'. PIE *uek^ (from Kent's classic _Old Persian_). No connection with bastar.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Lugubert

Frank06 said:


> From Old Persian *vasiy* (much), Sassaside Pahlavi 'vas'. PIE *uek^ (from Kent's classic _Old Persian_).


Another coincidence, I suppose: vasiy vs. Arabic waasi3 'wide'.

I'll correct for you: Sassanide.

Gotta have a look at that Kent thing. There's a copy within walking distance from me, at the University library. Thanks for the tip!


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## se16teddy

The English cognates give an interesting example of vowel modification.
_bind_ (verb) = tie
_bound_ - past tense or past participle of _bind_
_band_ - something that ties. Apparently the sense of _a group of people or animals; particularly a group of musicians_ evolved in Romance languages into which the word had been borrowed; the sense of _a strip of material or colour_ apparently also developed in a Romance language. 
_bond_ - something that holds people or things together, sometimes a contract
_bend_ - a kind of knot, most often used these days in compounds such as _sheet bend __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend_ According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word _bend_ meaning (noun) _a curve_ or (verb) _to form a curve_ derives from this word: when you string a bow (to shoot arrows) you _bend_ the bow. 

We also have in English the word _bund_ meaning: _In India: ‘Any artificial embankment, a dam, dyke, or causeway.’ In the Anglo-Chinese ports, ‘applied specially to the embanked quay along the shore’. _I think the best known Bund is the quayside in Shanghai. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund According to the Oxford English Dictionary this is from _Hindustani band; of Persian origin. _Do you think this is the same word?  I suppose that an embankment is in a sense something that closes, binds or fastens.


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## se16teddy

Whodunit said:


> I can't find any similar word in Latin, but I'd like to know where French _bande_ and _bandage_ (which we use in German, too) are derived from.


  Obviously we use _band_ (a group of people or animals, these days very commonly musicians) and _bandage_ (a strip of textile for a healing purpose) in English too.   The Oxford English Dictionary discusses their origin at some length, but in the end is not terribly sure whether _band_ was innate in the Romance languages or borrowed from Germanic.


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## Frank06

Hi,


se16teddy said:


> We also have in English the word _bund_ meaning: _In India: ‘Any artificial embankment, a dam, dyke, or causeway.’ [...] _According to the Oxford English Dictionary this is from _Hindustani band; of Persian origin. _Do you think this is the same word?


Unfortunately, the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology doesn't mention the word, but the Wiki-article says that 'bund' is related to 'to bind'.


> The Oxford English Dictionary discusses their origin at some length, but in the end is not terribly sure whether _band_ was innate in the Romance languages or borrowed from Germanic.


What do you (or the OED) mean here by 'innate'? The word 'band-' cannot come from Latin (unless it was a loan in post-Classic or (very very) late Latin from a (Germanic?) language).

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Lugubert

se16teddy said:


> The English cognates give an interesting example of vowel modification.[\quote]Not surprisingly, we have a lot of them in Swedish.
> _bind _(verb) = tie -- _binda_
> _bound_ - past tense or past participle of _bind -- _PP _bundit_
> _band_ - something that ties._ -- _same
> _bond_ - something that holds people or things together_ -- _Can't think of any Swedish cognate here.
> _bend_ - a kind of knot, most often used these days in compounds such as _sheet bend __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend_ According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word _bend_ meaning (noun) _a curve_ or (verb) _to form a curve_ derives from this word: when you string a bow (to shoot arrows) you _bend_ the bow.
> A different root, obviously: bending isn't very close to binding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We also have in English the word _bund_ meaning: _In India: ‘Any artificial embankment, a dam, dyke, or causeway.’ In the Anglo-Chinese ports, ‘applied specially to the embanked quay along the shore’. _I think the best known Bund is the quayside in Shanghai. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund According to the Oxford English Dictionary this is from _Hindustani band; of Persian origin. _Do you think this is the same word? I suppose that an embankment is in a sense something that closes, binds or fastens.
> 
> 
> 
> The transcription is consistent with how for example Rudyard Kipling rendered Hindustani: English _u_ for Indian _a_. Those meanings would relate to the _bounds _or limits of the waters in question.
Click to expand...


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## se16teddy

Lugubert said:


> A different root, obviously: bending isn't very close to binding.


Obviously I didn't explain the connection between binding and bending clearly enough. 
According to the OED, the verb _bend_ is attested in English since the early 11th century in the sense _to bind, to constrain, to make fast. _From the early 14th century the verb comes to mean _to bring into the shape of a bow. _
The Dictionary explains the development as follows. 
In Old English [_bend_ was] used only in the senses ‘to restrain with a bond, fetter, confine,’ and ‘to bend a bow,’ orig. ‘to hold in restraint or confine with the string.’ From the latter by transference of the word to the bowed or curved condition of a bent bow, came the now main sense of ‘to bow, curve, or crook.’ Compare the partly parallel history of French _bander_, Old French _bender_ (= Provencal and Italian _bendare_, _bandare_, Spanish and Portuguese _vendar_, _bandar_).


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## se16teddy

Frank06 said:


> What do you (or the OED) mean here by 'innate'? The word 'band-' cannot come from Latin (unless it was a loan in post-Classic or (very very) late Latin from a (Germanic?) language).


Thanks, Frank, I didn't read the Dictonary carefully enough. The thing that confused me was this sentence (under the etymology for meaning 2 of the noun _band_). 
Although Old French _bende_ would of itself give a later _bande_, the French and Italian forms suggest that both _banda_ and _benda_ may have existed from the first in Romanic... 
The Dictionary is not suggesting that the word may have been present at the formation of the Latin language, rather that it may have been present when Latin developed into French and Italian.


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## Whodunit

Let's see what we have in German:



se16teddy said:


> _bind_ (verb) = tie _binden_
> _bound_ - past tense or past participle of _bind band (past root), gebunden (past participle)_
> _band_ - something that ties. _Band_ Apparently the sense of _a group of people or animals; particularly a group of musicians_ _(Band with the English pronunciation)_ evolved in Romance languages into which the word had been borrowed; the sense of _a strip of material or colour_ apparently also developed in a Romance language. _Binde_
> _bond_ - something that holds people or things together, sometimes a contract _Bund_
> _bend_ - a kind of knot, most often used these days in compounds such as _sheet bend __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_bend_ According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word _bend_ meaning (noun) _a curve_ or (verb) _to form a curve_ derives from this word: when you string a bow (to shoot arrows) you _bend_ the bow.


 
According to Etymonline, _to bend_ and _to bind_ are cognates, which go both back to the IE root *_bhendh_. I think _to bend_ is the causative of _to bind_, but this could be "a false friend". Unfortunately, we have no similar word in German, so that I can't check it with my German etymological dictionary. Grimm's dictionary doesn't offer _bend_ in all the article either. The German equivalent to _to bend_ is _biegen_, which goes back to - like English _to bow_ - the IE root *_bheugh_.



> We also have in English the word _bund_ meaning: _In India: ‘Any artificial embankment, a dam, dyke, or causeway.’ In the Anglo-Chinese ports, ‘applied specially to the embanked quay along the shore’. _I think the best known Bund is the quayside in Shanghai. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund According to the Oxford English Dictionary this is from _Hindustani band; of Persian origin. _Do you think this is the same word? I suppose that an embankment is in a sense something that closes, binds or fastens.


 
Which is the correct pronunciation of _Bund_? If it is _band(h?)_ in Hindi, the German translation _Bund_ would convey an incorrect pronunciation. The same goes for Spanish _Bund_. In Japanese, it is called バンド (= bando). The Russians call it like in Chinese _Wàitān_.


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## Whodunit

se16teddy said:


> Although Old French _bende_ would of itself give a later _bande_, the French and Italian forms suggest that both _banda_ and _benda_ may have existed from the first in Romanic...


 
Has somebody already consulted a French etymological dictionary? Here is a short description on _bande_, which shows a connection to the German *_bindô-_. Anyway, it must have been a two-way borrowing from Germanic to French (?) and back to the West and North Germanic.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Whodunit said:


> Has somebody already consulted a French etymological dictionary? Here is a short description on _bande_, which shows a connection to the German *_bindô-_. Anyway, it must have been a two-way borrowing from Germanic to French (?) and back to the West and North Germanic.


 
See post 6.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Whodunit

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> See post 6.
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


 
Yes, we discussed that part already, I know. However, no one mentioned the root *_bandô_. I can't find that root anywhere else, though. In Koebler's Germanic dictionary, we have several _bind-_ forms:

*banda- band/chain
*bandi- band/chain
*bandi- band/chain
*bandila- band
*bandisla- bending
*bandjan to bind


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## Frank06

Hi,


Whodunit said:


> I think _to bend_ is the causative of _to bind_, but this could be "a false friend".


Nope, you're right: causative (bind-, pret. band, +jan).



> Yes, we discussed that part [post 6] already, I know.


Apart from the two full pages I skipped for the sake of brevity (the references to Gothic bandwo, bandja, Med. Lat. bandum, Prov. banda, possible Germanic source *banda), we discussed it indeed. 



> However, no one mentioned the root *_bandô_. I can't find that root anywhere else, though.


No, but I don't get it, where do you find that *bandô?
The only referrence to *bandô I could find was a (resconstructed) 'Old Teutonic' form.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Whodunit

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Nope, you're right: causative (bind-, pret. band, +jan).


 
Okay, that should be one of the last causatives of English. I can't think of too many. There's still a good number of them in New High German; I don't know about Dutch.



> No, but I don't get it, where do you find that *bandô?


 
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant *_bindô-_, which was mentioned on the French etymology site:



> Empr. au germ. *_bindō-_ « bande ruban » que l'on peut déduire de l'a. h. all. _bintan_ (all. mod. _binden_)


 


> The only referrence to *bandô I could find was a (resconstructed) 'Old Teutonic' form.


 
Is _Old Teutonic_ the same as _Old Germanic_?


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## Forero

Here's another link about _bhendh_.  Apparently Persian _band_ meant band, bandage, or river levee.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/roots/zzb02100.html


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## Alijsh

se16teddy said:


> We also have in English the word _bund_ meaning: _In India: ‘Any artificial embankment, a dam, dyke, or causeway.’ In the Anglo-Chinese ports, ‘applied specially to the embanked quay along the shore’. _I think the best known Bund is the quayside in Shanghai. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bund According to the Oxford English Dictionary this is from _Hindustani band; of Persian origin. _Do you think this is the same word? I suppose that an embankment is in a sense something that closes, binds or fastens.


We have it in Persian as well but in this compound: *âbband* -> âb: water -> Any artificial embankment, a dam. However, in this coumpound, *band* is present stem of *bastan* (to close). Therefore, *âbband* literally means water-closer.

I don't know the Hindi form of *cummerbund* but it's a borrowing from Hindi which is itself from Persian *kamarband* (kamar: waist -> waistband -> belt). Is English *bund* pronounced the same in Hindi?


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## racam

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> In *Dutch*, we have words like 'binden', to bind, 'band', a strap, a tie (also more fig. as in familieband), 'bond', league. The basic meaning of these words goes back to the basic meaning of the PIE root *bhendh namely to bind, to tie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't think of a meaning of 'b*nd' in Dutch which specifically refers to 'to close' or 'closure'; that would be '(af)sluiten'.
> 
> 
> 
> In Dutch _bende _"group". _Bind _is not the same thing as _band,_ even if the members of a _band _are _bond_.
> In the Languedoc we have for the tourists  the _bandido :Bandido_ « l'accompagnement des taureaux retournant au bercail par les gardians à cheval». Lots of pictures can be found on the web. En espagnol _bandido_ signifie uniquement « bandit ».
> En ancien occitan par contre, nous trouvons le verbe _*bandir*_ « déployer une bannière de façon à ce qu’elle flotte au vent ». C’est la notion « groupe, bande, troupeau » qui est essentielle. Dans les langues germaniques nous le retrouvons: allemand _Bande_ "troupeau, groupe", néerlandais _bende_, anglais _band _qui avec le sens "groupe de musiciens" est revenu en français. En occitan moderne dans les Hautes Alpes _bandir_ est « lâcher, délivrer », à Marseille « exiler » à Alès « chasser, lancer, envoyer ». _Bandido_ « « l'accompagnement des taureaux retournant au bercail par les gardians à cheval. » est dérivé du verbe _bandir_ qui vient du gothique _*bandwjan*_ « donner un signe ». Ce sont les Wisigots qui ont fondé un royaume ici ! Le subst. _*bandwa*_ « signe », est à l’origine du mot _bande_ « groupe de gens", sous-entendu « sous le même signe ». Le sens d’origine du mot _bandido_ a dû être quelque chose comme « lâcher les taureaux au pâturage ». Je ne l’ai pas trouvé pas dans les vieux dictionnaires du languedocien mais il est bien vivant en Camargue.
> Les mot francais _bandit_, néerlandais _bandiet_ ont la même origine gotique, mais ils nous sont parvenus par l’intermédiaire de l’italien où le part. passé _bandito_ avait pris ce sens. Mais le fém. _bandita_ y a gardé l’ancienne signification « droit d’usage d’un pâturage ».
Click to expand...


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## shannenms

Alijsh said:


> We have it in Persian as well but in this compound: *âbband* -> âb: water -> Any artificial embankment, a dam. However, in this coumpound, *band* is present stem of *bastan* (to close). Therefore, *âbband* literally means water-closer.
> 
> I don't know the Hindi form of *cummerbund* but it's a borrowing from Hindi which is itself from Persian *kamarband* (kamar: waist -> waistband -> belt). Is English *bund* pronounced the same in Hindi?


 

The word "turban" in English has the root of bastan, which is very interesting in Persian!!!
Look it up!


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## Lugubert

Alijsh said:


> I don't know the Hindi form of *cummerbund* but it's a borrowing from Hindi which is itself from Persian *kamarband* (kamar: waist -> waistband -> belt).


Hindi kamarbãd. I suppose it would be equally correct to write kamarband. 


> Is English *bund* pronounced the same in Hindi?


[a] vowel in both cases, but perhaps the Hindi will be more nasal.


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## Alijsh

Lugubert said:


> Another coincidence, I suppose: vasiy vs. Arabic waasi3 'wide'.


Old Persian *vasiy* has passed to new Persian as *basi* and *bas*.


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## francois_auffret

albondiga said:


> Is the ending actually "dh" in Hindi? I had seen "band" in Hindi for "closed"; is this wrong?


 
No, it's right too... The thing is that Urdu / Hindi and other Indian languages have borrowed the Persian form:

*Band honâ / Band karnâ* = to be closed, shut down / to close, to shut down...

And at the same time they retain the sanskrit origin word, with a slightly different meaning:

*Bândhnâ* = (transitive verb) To tie, to bind
*Bandhna* = (intransitive) To be tied, to be bound


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## albondiga

francois_auffret said:


> No, it's right too... The thing is that Urdu / Hindi and other Indian languages have borrowed the Persian form:
> 
> *Band honâ / Band karnâ* = to be closed, shut down / to close, to shut down...
> 
> And at the same time they retain the sanskrit origin word, with a slightly different meaning:
> 
> *Bândhnâ* = (transitive verb) To tie, to bind
> *Bandhna* = (intransitive) To be tied, to be bound



Ah, mystery solved!  Clearly both exist and are in wide use; not that I like to rely on Google for everything, but (as current internet usage goes) "*band *karo" just got 9950 hits and "*bandh *karo" just got 2270... I think the results also suggest that a good amount of interchangeability has developed in practical usage over time... anyway, thanks for the clarification on this!


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## francois_auffret

albondiga said:


> Ah, mystery solved! Clearly both exist and are in wide use; not that I like to rely on Google for everything, but (as current internet usage goes) "*band *karo" just got 9950 hits and "*bandh *karo" just got 2270... I think the results also suggest that a good amount of interchangeability has developed in practical usage over time... anyway, thanks for the clarification on this!


 
Both exist and are widely used: *Yes*

A good amount of interchangeability has developed in practical usage over time: *NOT AT ALL. These are different words altogether with different meanings. No Urdu - Hindi speaker will ever mistake one for the other... The thing is that people writing in roman may be confused with spelling but people writing in Nasta'liq or in Devnagri won't... 95% of people who can write in their original language won't make the mistake.... So if there would be Google in Nasta'liq or Devnagri, I'd say, you could trust Google, but Urdu / Hindi written in roman... Believe me, never rely on the spelling!!!!!!!*
*Let me give you different sentences for the different uses of the two above words:*

*gadhâ bandhâ huwâ hai : The donkey is tied...*
*belT bândh lo : Fasten your belt*
*Darvâzâ band kar do : Shut the door*
*Âj un kî dûkân jaldî band ho gaî : Their shop closed early today*

Hope it's clear enough

Cheers


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## lcfatima

This thread is so interesting...clear evidence of proto-European! Anyhow, I thought others might find it interesting to know that in UAE dialect of Arabic (as well as some other Khaleeji dialects) "band" is one of those Hindustani or Farsi lexical adoptions in the local Arabic language. "Yibannid" is the verb meaning "to close" as in 'close the door.'


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