# Urdu: merciless



## Fidji

What would be the Urdu word for merciless (general meaning) or wrongdoer, such as someone who transgresses moral laws, in latin alphabet please?


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## Qureshpor

Merciless would be "be-raHm" which literally is equivalent to "without-mercy".

"Wrongdoer" in the sense of a sinner is "gunah-gaar".


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> ”gunah-gaar".


Why isn’t it “gunah-kaar”?


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## desi4life

^ I've never heard "gunah-kaar". It's mentioned in Platts' dictionary but is probably obsolete now. Some compounds have "-gaar" and others have "-kaar". "-gaar" is a common Persian suffix and means the same as "-kaar". Is "-gaar" not used in contemporary Iranian Persian?


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## PersoLatin

desi4life said:


> I've never heard "gunah-kaar". It's mentioned in Platts' dictionary but is probably obsolete now.


in Persian it is گناه‌کار orگنه‌کار and it’s always been with -kaar. Of course there are Persian words with both -gaar and -gar but not گنه‌کار/gunah-kaar.

Examples of
-gaar: روزگار آموزگار پروردگار

-gar: گارگر گوزه‌گر ستایشگر مسگر

-kaar: پرهیزکار خودکلر شاهکار پشتکار کشتکار درستکار ورزشکار


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Why isn’t it “gunah-kaar”?


Please see this thread.

Urdu-Persian: k/g variation in words


We use پرھیزگار ، مددگار، گنہگار، پروردگار in Urdu.


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## PersoLatin

There's no doubt that کار/kâr (work, doing, task, job) is the source for both گار and its shortened form گر, and not the other way around, strictly speaking compounds of this type should only be made with کار/kâr, considering what it means. At some point k>g happened, most probably in some region in greater Persia, due to a misreading, accent or the natural language development and some of these stayed in the language and the rest is.....

I am sure you know in the compound, the meaning of کار/kâr is 'one who performs/commits/does/acts' (plus the activity preceding it)
پرهیزکار خودکلر شاهکار پشتکار کشتکار درستکار ورزشکار



Qureshpor said:


> We use پرھیزگار ، مددگار، گنہگار، پروردگار in Urdu.


I don't see گناه‌گار i.e. گناه‌ + گار in your list, does this also exist is Urdu? Also do you have any compounds of this type with کار/kâr at all?


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## Qureshpor

Yes, گناھگار exists too and yes also to کار as in کاشتکار، خودکار، دستکار، ریاکار


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## Alfaaz

Here are two other options for _wrongdoer_:

خطاء کار - _xataa-kaar_
خطاء وار _- xataa-waar_


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## PersoLatin

Hi Alfaaz,

We also use خطاکار as I have typed it.

On this word خطاء وار _- xataa-waar, _وار in Persian is an adverbial suffix, although we don't use this particular compound in Persian, we do use وار with other words. So خطاء وار means in a 'wrongdoing manner' and not a 'wrongdoer'.

Persian words: دیوانه  وار - mad/crazy manner, crazily, مستانه وار in a drunk manner/drunkenly


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> ... وار in Persian is an adverbial suffix, although we don't use this particular compound in Persian, we do use وار with other words. So خطاء وار means in a 'wrongdoing manner' and not a 'wrongdoer'.
> 
> Persian words: دیوانه  وار - mad/crazy manner, crazily ...


 In Persian as well, can't the suffix وار be both adverbial and adjectival? A few relevant entries from Hayyim:


> *دیوانه وار* _(—var)_ Adverb-Adjective 1. Madly; like madmen; also, frantically. Ex. دیوانه وار در کوچه دوید || 2. Mad; foolish [_never used for persons_]. Ex. حرکات دیوانه وارmad or foolish acts.





> *امیدوار* (—_var_) Adjective 1. Hopeful. Ex. امیدوارم شفا یابد I hope he will be cured. 2. Expectant. امیدوار بودن To hope, to be hopeful.





> *سزا وار* _(—var)_ Adjective 1. Worthy, deserving. Ex. او سزاوار تنبیه نیست He is not worthy of punishment; he does not deserve to be punished. _Syn_. لایق & مستحق || 2. Just right; suitable. Ex. سزاوار نیست که بااو اینطور رفتار شود It is not just to treat him that way. سزاوار بودن To deserve, to merit; to be worthy (of).


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## PersoLatin

Hi Alfaaz,

I agree that وار in سزا وار but also in دیوانه وار means 'worthy', 'attributed to' , so سزا وار, worthy of سزا and دیوانه وار behaviour attributed to a دیوانه. It appears that compounds ending in وار, do not always translate into an adverb in English although they can always be translated accurately, so the below statement is not in all cases accurate:


PersoLatin said:


> وار in Persian is an adverbial suffix




I do hope you agree that وار in خطاء وار also means 'worthy' which makes its meaning a 'thing worthy of خطاء' and not a 'person who commits خطاء'. Another thing to consider is that if  خطاء کار and خطاء وار had the same meaning, then وار and کار have the same meaning which makes a nonsense of سزا کار and امیدکار.


As for امیدوار, I have always had doubts about this word, امیدوار currently means a person who has hope/is hopeful but in reality it should mean 'something worthy of hope'. I believe this word may well have started life as امیددار/omiddâr i.e. someone who has/keeps hope and at some point the two d's merged to give امیدار, this was then seen as wrong so it was supposedly corrected to امیدوار.


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## Torontal

PersoLatin said:


> Why isn’t it “gunah-kaar”?



yes it is interesting, in Turkish it is also used with _k_ (günahkar, sinner), it would sound odd to me if the voiceless _h_ was to be followed by a voiced _g_, it just wouldn't harmonize.

Anyway, are Arabic origin words used for wrongdoer in Urdu like فاسق , فاسد , فاجر or derivations from these roots?


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## PersoLatin

Torontal said:


> yes it is interesting, in Turkish it is also used with _k_ (günahkar, sinner), it would sound odd to me if the voiceless _h_ was to be followed by a voiced _g_, it just wouldn't harmonize.



In the link, Alfaaz has kindly found, I have given a possible reason for development of k to g, in words that originally ended in a soft vowel e.g. پرورده کار/parvardakâr to پرورده گار/parvardagâr then after shortening, to پروردگار but گ wasn't changed back to k.


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## Qureshpor

Torontal said:


> yes it is interesting, in Turkish it is also used with _k_ (günahkar, sinner), it would sound odd to me if the voiceless _h_ was to be followed by a voiced _g_, it just wouldn't harmonize.


One word that comes to mind immediately with h+g combination is کاھگِل.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> One word that comes to mind immediately with h+g combination is کاھگِل.


This applies to noun + suffix combos & not to the noun + noun compounds, if you’d said پناه‌گاه that would be something although that’s is ok, as the گ in گاه is not in dispute, same as رهگذز again no disputes here.


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> I agree that وار in سزا وار but also in دیوانه وار means 'worthy', 'attributed to' , so سزا وار, worthy of سزا and دیوانه وار behaviour attributed to a دیوانه. It appears that compounds ending in وار, do not always translate into an adverb in English although they can always be translated accurately, so the below statement is not in all cases accurate:
> ...
> I do hope you agree that وار in خطاء وار also means 'worthy' which makes its meaning a 'thing worthy of خطاء' and not a 'person who commits خطاء'. Another thing to consider is that if خطاء کار and خطاء وار had the same meaning, then وار and کار have the same meaning which makes a nonsense of سزا کار and امیدکار.
> 
> 
> As for امیدوار, I have always had doubts about this word, امیدوار currently means a person who has hope/is hopeful but in reality it should mean 'something worthy of hope'. I believe this word may well have started life as امیددار/omiddâr i.e. someone who has/keeps hope and at some point the two d's merged to give امیدار, this was then seen as wrong so it was supposedly corrected to امیدوار.


 Based on the entries quoted below, it seems that the suffix imparts the meaning of صاحب/دارندہ in خطاوار. Therefore, خطاوار would be _someone who keeps/has_ خطا and خطاکار would be _someone who does_ خطا...both ending up to be used in the similar manner...?

Similarly, وار appears to carry a meaning different from _worthy _in (امیدوار (صاحبِ امید and (دیوانہ وار (مانندِ دیوانہ. However, your suggestion (_something worthy of hope_) also seems like a possible interpretation if the other usages (گوشوار، وغیرہ) are taken into consideration. 

Entries in اردو لغت, Platts, Hayyim, لغت‌ نامه دهخدا and فرهنگ فارسی عمید:


> وار
> ۱۔ برائے صفت و نسبت بہ معنی صاحب ، والا ؛ جیسے : امیدوار ، بزرگوار ، سوگوار ، تقصیر وار ، خطا وار ، قصوروار
> ۲۔ (براے لیاقت و قابلیت) شاہوار ، گوشوار ، راہ وار
> ۳۔ (بطور م ف) طرف ، رخ ، جانب ، سمت ؛ جیسے : اندروار ، عمودوار ، ہموار
> ۴۔ (براے اسمیت) پیداوار وغیرہ.
> ۵۔ (براے تشبیہہ) بمعنی طرز ، مانند ، کی طرح (مثلاً دیوانہ وار ، بیگانہ وار) ۔





> P وار _wār_ or _vār_ [Pehl. & Pārsī _var_; Zend _vara_ (or _vare_), rt. _var_; S. वर, rt. वर् (वृ, वृणोति)], suff. Having, possessing, endowed with, full of (e.g. _umed-wār_, 'hopeful');—becoming, befitting, suiting, fit, suitable (for), worthy (of;—e.g. _shāh-wār_, 'befitting, or worthy of, a king'; _gosh-wār_, 'becoming or adorning the ear,' 'an ear-ring');—like, resembling, in the manner of, after the fashion of, according to; after or according to the details of (e.g. _ẕarra-wār_, 'like an atom';—in this sense it is often added to substantives to form adjectives, e.g. _mahīne-wār_, 'monthly'; _kisht-wār_, According to the fields or the crops);—enough or sufficient for, or a quantity sufficient for (e.g. _jāma-wār_, 'sufficient for a garment'; cf. _jāma bhar_);—the suffix is sometimes redundant, e.g. _sazā-wār_ = _sazā_, 'deserving,' &c.





> *وار* ﴾2﴿ [Suffix meaning (1) like, resembling, —oid (E. suffix) مردوار like a man, manly; (2) befitting: درّشاهوار a kingly pearl, or one befitting a king; (3) full of; having, -ful (E. suffix): امیدوار hopeful; عیال وار having (_or_ encumbered by) a large family.





> وار. (پسوند) مانند. شبه . نظیر. (برهان ) (آنندراج ) (ناظم الاطباء) (جهانگیری ). واره . (جهانگیری ) (آنندراج ). وش . (یادداشت مؤلف ). وار به این معنی گاهی به صفت ملحق میشود و اغلب قید میسازد چون متنکروار و عاجزوار و گاهی به اسم عام می پیوندد وصفت یا قید می سازد چون فرزندوار، پسروار، پدروار و گاه نیز به اسم خاص ملحق میگردد و قید و صفت تشکیل میدهد چون سلیمان وار، سعدی وار، سکندروار :
> ...
> || به معنی لیاقت هم گفته اند همچو شاهوار و گوشوار یعنی لائق گوش . (برهان ). شایسته و لائق مانند شاهوار، گوشوار و سزاوار. (از آنندراج ). کلمه ٔ نسبت چون سوگوار ، تقصیروار. (غیاث اللغات ) :
> ...
> || هفته وار بجای هفته گانه این کلمه را بار اول من در جوانی در حبل المتین کلکته به این معنی دیدم و تعجب کردم . شاید از افغانستان یا پاکستان باشد و فعلاً تا حدی معمول است : روزنامه ٔ هفته وار، مجله ٔ ماهوار. (مؤلف ) . اقساط ماهوار که قلیل الاستعمال است . (مؤلف ). به معنی هر. (مؤلف ). || به معنی صاحب و خداوند. (برهان ) (آنندراج ) (جهانگیری ). ور. آور. ناک . مند. گین . گن . (مؤلف ). مانند امیدوار. عیال وار. راهوار :





> وار - (پسوند) ‹واره› ۱. مثل؛ مانند؛ شبیه: مردوار، بزرگوار، بنده‌وار، دیوانه‌وار، دایره‌وار.
> ۲. دارنده: امیدوار، سوگوار.
> ۳. لایق: شاهوار.
> ۴. به اندازۀ باری که حیوان می‌تواند حمل کند (در ترکیب با کلمۀ دیگر): شتروار، خروار.
> ۵. (اسم) [قدیمی] زمان؛ نوبت.





			
				Torontal said:
			
		

> Anyway, are Arabic origin words used for wrongdoer in Urdu like فاسق , فاسد , فاجر or derivations from these roots?


 Yes, all of these words are present in addition to many others of various origins such as (depending on context) مفسد، مجرم، عاصی، خاطی، مذنب، اثیم، شریر، بدذات، قصوروار، بدکار، بدمعاش، بدقماش، سیاہ کار، گمراہ، ناہنجار، بد راہ، بے راہ، بد چلن، آوارہ، پاپی، وغیرہ.


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## PersoLatin

Hi Alfaaz,

Thanks for this.



> *وار*) 2)_ [Suffix meaning (1) like, resembling, —oid (E. suffix) مردوار like a man, manly; (2) befitting: درّشاهوار a kingly pearl, or one befitting a king; (3) full of; having, -ful (E. suffix): امیدوار hopeful; عیال وار having (or encumbered by) a large family._



I offered an alternative explanation for the inconsistent one which is '_the possessor of_' in امیدوار. In the above, 1 and 2 have the same meaning but not _(3) full of; having, -ful (E. suffix)_

Also in the below list, 1, 2 should come under one heading as all examples given have the same overall meaning, for 4 see below:


> وار - (پسوند) ‹واره›
> ۱. مثل؛ مانند؛ شبیه: مردوار، بزرگوار، بنده‌وار، دیوانه‌وار، دایره‌وار.
> ۲. دارنده: امیدوار، سوگوار.
> ۳. لایق: شاهوار.
> ۴. به اندازۀ باری که حیوان می‌تواند حمل کند (در ترکیب با کلمۀ دیگر): شتروار، خروار.


وار means manner of/like:
دایره‌وار in the manner of circles,
شاهوار in the manner of kings
سعدی وار in the manner of سعدی
هفته وار like one week/weekly/هفته i.e. happens every seven days (same for ماهوار)



> ۴. به اندازۀ باری که حیوان می‌تواند حمل کند (در ترکیب با کلمۀ دیگر): شتروار، خروار


This وار must have been بار as in 'load' and changed to وار, you can see the author has struggled with it & has made up a category. شتروار & خروار are no different to کولبار, a 'load' a person can carry on their کول/shoulder and, a load a donkey/camel can carry on their back, hence خربار/خروار being a measure of weight in Iran.

I have heard دوواره for دوباره-again, a few times in Iran (not to be taken as a common occurrence), but you can see بار and وار get mixed up and at some point some mix-ups are accepted as correct. I just hope the author of this dictionary doesn't see this post, as دوواره has now been used once and a precedence has been set .



Alfaaz said:


> خطاوار would be _someone who keeps/has_ خطا and خطاکار would be _someone who does_ خطا...


Ok at least we now agree that only خطاکار means _wrongdoer _(refer to #11).

While here, can you provide an English translation of an Urdu sentence with خطاوار, meaning _someone who keeps/has _خطا, please.


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## Fidji

Hi all, 

Thank you very much indeed for your detailed answers. A very interesting thread!


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> Why isn’t it “gunah-kaar”?


An example of usage of گنھگار in Dari. See last sentence.

http://afgazad.com/Eateqaady-2014/061316-Dr-AS-Naswaar-Wa-Segret-Dar-Ramazaan.pdf


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> I just hope the author of this dictionary doesn't see this post, as دوواره has now been used once and a precedence has been set.


Thanks for the detailed explanations and setting a precedent!


			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> Ok at least we now agree that only خطاکار means _wrongdoer _(refer to #11).
> 
> While here, can you provide an English translation of an Urdu sentence with خطاوار, meaning _someone who keeps/has _خطا, please.


 In post #17, I was trying to (perhaps unsuccessfully) differentiate* between the two based on the roots with uncertainty - which was supposed to be represented by the use of ellipses and the question mark! I think the more learned forum members could provide better explanations and examples. In the meantime, there are a few examples below. *As mentioned in post #11, both compounds appear to be used synonymously.

انورؔ *گناہ گار و خطاوار* ہی سہی
سر تابہ پا عطا ہی عطا ہو گئے ہو تم

انور صابری

انورؔ _even though (you're) _گناہ گار و خطاوار
سر تابہ پا _you have become_ عطا در عطا​
دل *خطاوار* اشتیاق سہی
لب گنہ گار التجا نہ ہوا

اقبال سہیل

دل _might be_ خطاوار اشتیاق
_(but)_ لب _did not become_ گنہگار التجا​
تم *خطا کار* و خطا بیں وہ خطا پوش و کریم - علامہ اقبال از جوابِ شکوہ

_you _خطاکار و خطابین  _He _خطا پوش و کریم​
شاید *خطاوار *آدمی یہ گھمنڈ کرتا ہے کہ وہ بڑا پیچ دار آدمی ہے لیکن دراصل وہ بد ہے۔"      ( ١٩٠٧ء، کرزن نامہ، ٢٦٢ 

شاید _a _خطاوار آدمی _has this_ غرور _that he is a very_ پیچ دار آدمی , _but_ دراصل _he is_ بد.​
Note: These were some of the few examples that did not contain any references to politics and/or mention any names, etc., which is why I included these examples here. While searching, I also came across a few examples of خطاوار being used in Farsi articles. (At least one seems to be from an Irani website.) I will send those via PM, since I am not sure of the content of those.


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> In post #17, I was trying to (perhaps unsuccessfully) differentiate* between the two based on the roots with uncertainty


You were successful and that why I said at least we agree they are different.

Thank you for sending that PM message which had a link to an Iranian site which promotes Shia Islam. That piece is a translation of a critique of works by Paulo Coelho کوئلیو, who I'd never heard of before but internet came to the rescue. The translation is not very good at all it's basically literal and difficult to follow but not impossible. Also خطاوار and خطاکار are both used, the latter with exactly the meaning I am familiar in Persian. خطاوار is used in a different way but I still don't understand what it means, even though I understand the sentence fully because خطاوار was accompanied by نومیدی (see the italic below). The site is also available in _*Urdu*_ & English but unfortunately not this piece.
 می‌کند. _تبیین‌ها و تفسیرهای وی از هستی، یا به خوش‌بینی غیر واقعی و افراطی منجر می‌شود، یا به نومیدی و خطاوار دیدن نظام‌های حاکم هستی_؛ و او تلاش

Dear Alfaaz,

In brief: خطاکار is used in modern spoken Persian, also in poetry by modern & 'classic' poets alike, but خطاوار isn't, despite the two examples you provided but if I were to translate it based on what I know, I would say it means 'in a wrongdoing manner', 'befitting wrong/ill deeds'.

The fact that خطاوار and many other Urdu words of Persian origin, are not present in modern Persian doesn't mean they never existed, and my best guess is, they were removed, either because they were seen as errors or copied erroneously etc. But the factor is, this is how languages develop so let us agree to 'live & let live'.


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## Alfaaz

PersoLatin: Thanks for all of the comprehensive replies in this thread! 

I agree with your suggestion that certain words/phrases of one language might not be present in another language even though the words' components might originate from that language. There was no intention to dispute this idea and the questions asked above were only out of curiosity to try to understand what the possible foundation of the formation of خطاوار might have been.


			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> ... works by Paulo Coelho کوئلیو, who I'd never heard of before but internet came to the rescue. ...


 (One of his most famous works is _O Alquimista - The Alchemist_.)


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## PersoLatin

Alfaaz said:


> There was no intention to dispute this idea and the questions asked above were only out of curiosity to try to understand what the possible foundation of the formation of خطاوار might have been.


Noted


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> in Persian it is گناه‌کار orگنه‌کار and it’s always been with -kaar. Of course there are Persian words with both -gaar and -gar but not گنه‌کار/gunah-kaar.
> 
> Examples of
> -gaar: روزگار آموزگار پروردگار
> 
> -gar: گارگر گوزه‌گر ستایشگر مسگر
> 
> -kaar: پرهیزکار خودکلر شاهکار پشتکار کشتکار درستکار ورزشکار


An example of the use of the word گناہ گار by اوحدی

به روش چون _*گناه‌گار*_ شدند
همه در چشم خلق خوار شدند

گنجور » اوحدی » جام جم » در سفر و فواید آن

A couple from Persian news papers.
دانشمند آمریکایی در خصوص انتقال لپ تاپ دولتی به چین گناهگار شناخته شد- اخبار بین الملل - اخبار تسنیم - Tasnim

گناهگار از محبت خدا به خود باخبر باشد، فکر گناه هم نمی کند

From the BBC
نوجوان متهم به تجاوز گروهی در هند گناهگار شناخته شد


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> گنجور » اوحدی » جام جم » در سفر و فواید آن


In the whole of گنجور there's ONE occurrence and that is it.



Qureshpor said:


> نوجوان متهم به تجاوز گروهی در هند گناهگار شناخته شد





Qureshpor said:


> دانشمند آمریکایی در خصوص انتقال لپ تاپ دولتی به چین گناهگار شناخته شد- اخبار بین الملل - اخبار تسنیم - Tasnim


Yes in both above links they have it with گ in the headlines but on the same page they use گناه‌کار several time, I wonder why.

خبرگزاری تسنیم: یک دانشمند سابق آمریکایی که در یکی از تاسیسات تحقیقاتی هسته‌ای آمریکا مشغول به کار بوده از سوی دادگاهی فدرال در خصوص انتقال غیر قانونی لپ تاپ دولتی به چین *گناهکار *شناخته شده است.

دادگاهی در دهلی، پایتخت هند، نوجوانی را که به اتهام مشارکت در تجاوز گروهی و قتل یک دختر دانشجو در اتوبوسی در دسامبر گذشته محاکمه کرده بود، *گناهکار *تشخیص داد.



Qureshpor said:


> گناهگار از محبت خدا به خود باخبر باشد، فکر گناه هم نمی کند


This site has an Urdu language version so not quite a find.


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## Qureshpor

PersoLatin said:


> In the whole of گنجور there's ONE occurrence and that is it.
> 
> Maybe it is easier to trawl the net for گناه‌کار and count the hits, here’s a Persian saying which is very apt for the situation we find ourselves: با یک گل بهار نمیشه.



Not quite. 

رفتنی رفت، بعد ازین تو مرا
گر گنه گار داری، ار معذور

وله ایضا

I don't need to "trawl" the net forگناه‌کار because you said in #5 "in Persian it is گناه‌کار orگنه‌کار and it’s always been with -kaar. Of course there are Persian words with both -gaar and -gar but not گنه‌کار/gunah-kaar". So, my aim is to produce both گناه‌ گار and گنه‌ گار from Persian sources, which I have done.


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