# bicot, bougnoule



## Peppermintsoda

Some very tricky vocabulary linked to racist slurs concerning migrants from French colonial North Africa/Arabs/people of Middle Eastern descent. The context (this is a thriller) is an old-school, middle-aged white French male, holding traditional prejudices/racist views of migrant black communities in France, referring to the migrant North African/Arab/Muslim population in Marseille. He is in conversation with a black woman, his neighbour, who is herself of Fulani (Peul) origin:

- Vous avez l’air gentille, j’ai rien contre vous et encore moins contre vos gamins, mais, putain, comment vous dire… Je suis pas vraiment du genre qui fréquente les Arabes…
— Les Peuls ne sont pas arabes.
— Les Noirs, les bougnoules, les bicots, les barbus, tout ce que vous voulez.

It's the last bit that's tricky.

- The Collins-Robert and online sources suggest 'wog' for 'bicot' and various strong terms for 'bougnoule' including the N-word, 'wog', 'fucking/bloody Arabs'.
- For 'bougnoule', several other (normally reliable) online sources (plus WordReference) suggest 'towelhead', 'raghead', 'sand-N [word]', 'camel fucker', 'camel jockey' etc but I'm just not sure of their currency/recognition. I've not come across them before.
- For 'noirs', I was thinking something like the old-fashioned (UK) term 'darkies' (I think the sentiment is more along the lines of 'Paki'/'Sambo' which date from the 70s and remain hugely offensive in the UK - and I have personal experience of both). I don't think 'blacks' conveys the sentiments on its own.
- For 'barbus', I am guessing the bearded reference is to the racist/stereotypical view of 'bearded Muslims'/the terrorist cliché, so perhaps 'jihadi' would work? Or 'filthy/fucking Muslims' etc?

Also not sure:

a) How *dated/old-fashioned* these terms are.
b) How *extreme/injurious/offensive* they are - ie, is the N-word actually merited to convey the degree of insult? (I would naturally tend to avoid it in a translation.)
c) Given the French historical origins in colonial North Africa, whether I can get away (for a UK audience) with (eg) 'Darkies, wogs, coons, jihadis' etc. Or does it need to be stronger?


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## BEEKEEPER

*bicot et bougnoule* quand ils sont utilisés sont _*extrêmement*_ injurieux. Personne dans mon entourage n'oserait les prononcer.

Comme je ne connais rien de plus injurieux, ils sont toujours d'actualité.
Pour rester dans le même registre, il aurait pu dire _*les crêpus, les bamboulas*_ pour les noirs, ce qui est injurieux également.
Pour ce qui est de la traduction en anglais, je n'ai pas la compétence pour le dire.


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## Chimel

_Bougnoule_ and _bicot _are indeed injurious words. My impression is that _bicot_ is now a little dated.

I don't understand why you don't think _blacks_ can translate _les Noirs._


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## Peppermintsoda

Chimel said:


> _Bougnoule_ and _bicot _are indeed injurious words. My impression is that _bicot_ is now a little dated.
> 
> I don't understand why you don't think _blacks_ can translate _les Noirs._


Many thanks - it's to do with the tone of the comment, where I think 'darkies' might convey the sense better than the neutral 'blacks'.


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## Chimel

But _Noir_ is also neutral.

If I say: "Il est le seul Noir qui habite dans le quartier", it's just a statement, as I could say in another neighbourhood "il est le seul Blanc", it's not offensive.


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## Peppermintsoda

Yes, absolutely, I quite agree. But I'm just trying to 'compensate' for not being able to quite convey the negative sense of 'bougnoule' by using something more 'loaded' for 'Noirs'. A UK reader would immediately know from 'Darkie' or 'Paki' that the speaker is being racist. It also helps with conveying the old-fashioned attitudes of the speaker.


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## mehoul

Peppermintsoda said:


> For 'bougnoule', several other (normally reliable) online sources (plus WordReference) suggest 'towelhead', 'raghead',



that must refer to the keffiyeh worn in the Arabic peninsula, but when French people speak of "arabe" they think of North-African people, who do not wear a keffiyeh.


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## Son of a preacher man

I don't think jihadis works alongside 'darkies, coons, wogs', which is very much in the tone of Alf Garnet's 60s era, when jihadis weren't  on anyone's radar.  'Towelheads' is maybe better - I don't think the English would make much distinction between Bedouin and Arabian headgear.


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## JClaudeK

mehoul said:


> that must refer to the keffiyeh worn in the Arabic peninsula, but when French people speak of "arabe" they think of North-African people, who do not wear a keffiyeh.


 
Sauf dans un contexte où il est question des _Palestiniens,_ peut-être. Là,_ 'towelhead', 'raghead' _pour _"les Arabes"_ serait acceptable.


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## Soniastyle

Hi there!
If I may, I do agree that "bicot" and "bougnoule" are quite dated... my 70 years old uncle used to say it unfortunately.

Nowdays French people - racist french people I guess - use slightly "lighter" words but as insulting as the others here above.
...such as "*Les basanés*" (which is about having a darker skin but does not apply to a black person).
Could be translated with *coffee-coloured* 
I do agree with you that "darkies" sets the tone to understand where this conversation might go.

I'll come back if something else comes up to mind.


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## wildan1

Soniastyle said:


> I do agree with you that "darkies" sets the tone to understand where this conversation might go.


Except that _darkie _(more usually spelled_ darkey), is _a term that fell out of any serious usage even before World War II. It was actually a word sometimes used in order to avoid the "n-word" -- something "nice white ladies" in the South might use in order to be more polite than their husbands.

Frankly insulting terms could include_ raghead_ for a person of Arab background and _coon _for a person of African background--unlike_ nigger, _still used by racists, _coon _is both insulting and dated.

coon - English-French Dictionary WordReference.com


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## Peppermintsoda

wildan1 said:


> Except that _darkie _(more usually spelled_ darkey), is _a term that fell out of any serious usage even before World War II. It was actually a word sometimes used in order to avoid the "n-word" -- something "nice white ladies" in the South might use in order to be more polite than their husbands.
> 
> Frankly insulting terms could include_ raghead_ for a person of Arab background and _coon _for a person of African background--unlike_ nigger, _still used by racists, _coon _is both insulting and dated.
> 
> coon - English-French Dictionary WordReference.com


How interesting! I went to school in Scotland in the 1970s and 80s, and 'darkie' was a word I heard used for me (along with Paki). Perhaps it lingered longer in the UK?


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## JClaudeK

Peppermintsoda said:


> The context (this is a thriller) is an old-school, middle-aged white French male, holding traditional prejudices/racist views of migrant black communities in France, referring to the migrant North African/Arab/Muslim population in Marseille. He is in conversation with a black woman, his neighbour


On peut ajouter que la femme peule vient d'inviter Guy -  le vieux raciste - à prendre le thé chez elle, mais qu'il veut refuser au prétexte que


> Guy: - Je ne suis pas habitué.
> Leyli: - A quoi ? [.....]
> Guy: - A l'Afrique.
> (_Guy lui avoue sans détour qu'il vote pour l’extrême droite,"un parti plutôt couleur bleu marine"._)
> [.............]
> Guy: - Je suis pas vraiment du genre qui fréquente les Arabes… [.....]  Les Noirs, les bougnoules, les bicots, les barbus, tout ce que vous voulez.


Extrait de "On la trouvait plutôt jolie" _(Michel Bussi_)


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## jekoh

BEEKEEPER said:


> *bicot et bougnoule* quand ils sont utilisés sont _*extrêmement*_ injurieux. Personne dans mon entourage n'oserait les prononcer.


Yes, it's a bit funny for the OP to write "n-word" instead of "nigger" in a thread about the word "bougnoule". Both words are equally offensive.


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## Locape

For me, _bicot_ is very dated, I didn't understand it at first when I read it in a novel, I had to look it up in the dictionary. _Bougnoule_ is sometimes still used by older people, but some young people, second-generation immigrants, are using it out of defiance, as this French band: la bougnoule connection

It's odd that he isn't using a derogatory term instead of _les Noirs_, maybe because the Black woman is standing next to him. I don't think you can change the meaning of the text because English speakers won't understand why he says _Black people_ along with other insulting terms, but French speakers don't either.


BEEKEEPER said:


> Pour rester dans le même registre, il aurait pu dire _*les crêpus, les bamboulas*_ pour les noirs, ce qui est injurieux également.


Yes, but surprisingly, he didn't.

For me, _les barbus_ is more refering to the muslims than the terrorists.


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## Soniastyle

wildan1 said:


> Except that _darkie _(more usually spelled_ darkey), is _a term that fell out of any serious usage even before World War II. It was actually a word sometimes used in order to avoid the "n-word" -- something "nice white ladies" in the South might use in order to be more polite than their husbands.
> 
> Frankly insulting terms could include_ raghead_ for a person of Arab background and _coon _for a person of African background--unlike_ nigger, _still used by racists, _coon _is both insulting and dated.
> 
> coon - English-French Dictionary WordReference.com


Thanks for the historic update.  Somehow, being a bilingual, I must strongly disagree concerning this very specific translation since "raghead" refers more to UAE people than what #Pepperminsoda is trying to translate here. "Bougnoule" and "Bicot" are very much linked with immigrants from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, etc. and are actually french citizen just any other. When a french person reads "Raghead", these people really do not come to mind at all. And as #Locape mentioned, now the words "Bougnoule" and "Bicot" (or even "Melon") are being adoopted and embraced by the next generation.


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## wildan1

Well, having lived in Morocco for several years, I wish I could tell you that I didn't hear certain racist English-speaking expats I knew use the term _raghead _in referring to country folks (males) in the bled. But... yes, that's a term they used there.

What would native English-speakers call North African immigrants to France? I doubt they would have an equivalent term to _bougnoule, _since that wasn't a reality for immigration into the UK or other English-speaking countries, where similar immigrants hailed from South Asia (in the UK and Canada) and Mexico and Central America in the US.


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## Soniastyle

This is exactly why I find this thread very interesting, to find an equivalence in english based on a history that doesn't concern the U.K. (or other english speaking countries) is very tricky. Indeed the english speakers you knew in Morocco certainly used what you mentioned but this vocabulary was built and comes with their background. When I lived in the U.K. I had a lot of arabic friends (UAE mostly) and they certainly did not have the same life and background than 1st and 2nd generation immigrants in France. I will correspond with friends in England to discuss this topic. A possible neologism based on history might be necessary. But definitely not the word you suggested.


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## Locape

Soniastyle said:


> And as #Locape mentioned, now the words "Bougnoule" and "Bicot" (or even "Melon") are being adoopted and embraced by the next generation.


I've never mentioned _bicot_ and _melon_ as terms being adopted and embraced by the next generation. As far as I know, this isn't the case, there isn't any occurrence online. Maybe because these two terms are dated and therefore rarely used, contrary to _bougnoule_. Maybe also because the latter comes from _bougnat_ meaning a native of the Auvergne living in Paris. I suppose the second generation checked where it came from and found it less problematic to use it. The articles online on this term are all mentioning its origin.


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## Soniastyle

My bad, it was another member. ;-) Concerning _melon_, from experience, it is still very much used in the south of France I guess for obvious historical reasons. Algerian with who I grew up embrace all these words and still play with them amongst them - clearly not daily! But I will surely NEVER mention any.


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## jekoh

Locape said:


> Maybe also because the latter comes from _bougnat_ meaning a native of the Auvergne living in Paris. I suppose the second generation checked where it came from and found it less problematic to use it. *The articles online on this term are all mentioning its origin.*


And most are saying the origin is not from _bougnat_ but from wolof _ñuul (« noir »), wu ñuul (« qui est noir »), fas wu ñuul, (« cheval noir ») : bougnoule — Wiktionnaire_


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## Pedro y La Torre

Locape said:


> For me, _bicot_ is very dated, I didn't understand it at first when I read it in a novel, I had to look it up in the dictionary.


It's still used by certain French police officers in any case. 

« Un “bicot”, ça nage pas… ». L'inquiétant retour d'une insulte col...


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## Locape

jekoh said:


> And most are saying the origin is not from _bougnat_ but from wolof _ñuul (« noir »), wu ñuul (« qui est noir »), fas wu ñuul, (« cheval noir ») : bougnoule — Wiktionnaire_


Funny that this article is mentioning at least three origins!


> _L’une des explications étymologiques du mot « *Bougnoule* » le fait remonter à l’expression : _Bou gnôle_, le Père la Gnôle, le Père Bouteille, un terme méprisant employé à l’égard des alcooliques. Une autre la lie à l’injonction _Abou gnôle_ (Apporte la gnôle) utilisée par les soldats maghrébins lors de la Première Guerre mondiale et reprise comme sobriquet par les Français._ — (Alice Zeniter, _L’Art de perdre_, Flammarion/Albin Michel, Paris, 2017, page 40)


Here is a Wiktionnaire discussion where people are talking about the origin, it seems it was also used in France between soldiers before they came to Senegal:
discussion : bougnoule


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## WannaBFluent

Peppermintsoda said:


> - For 'barbus', I am guessing the bearded reference is to the racist/stereotypical view of 'bearded Muslims'/the terrorist cliché, so perhaps 'jihadi' would work? Or 'filthy/fucking Muslims' etc?


'Les barbus' often don't exclusively refer to Muslims, but to all religious people that have a beard. Some could say: "regarde là-bas, encore des barbus" seeing a group of old bearded Hindu, Sikh or Jewish men. It's a typical pejorative term used by atheists.

It's more about mocking people that prefer religion over their look/appearance and what others think about them.

You can't translate it by "jihadi".


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## Locape

Je ne dirais pas que _barbus_ est un terme péjoratif typique utilisé par les athées !!   Le problème est qu'il y a peu d'hindous et très peu de sikhs en France comparé à l'Angleterre par exemple, sans parler que la barbe n'est pas un signe religieux distinctif des hindous ou juifs. J'entends la plupart du temps ce terme pour parler des musulmans radicaux, même si on peut entendre quelquefois 'tous ces barbus' comme 'tous ces extrémistes religieux'.


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## WannaBFluent

Les seules personnes utilisant ce terme sont athées.


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## Locape

Il se trouve que les personnes de mon entourage qui parlent des _barbus_ pour parler des musulmans radicaux sont catholiques ou agnostiques ! Je ne crois pas que ton affirmation péremptoire soit très scientifique, tu as une étude sérieuse pour étayer cette assertion ?


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## WannaBFluent

Y'a rien de péremptoire. L'islam n'a pas le monopole de la barbe. La barbe est vue comme un signe de piété ou de sagesse dans quasi toutes les religions et civilisations. Jésus est quasi toujours (si ce n'est exclusivement) représenté barbu d'ailleurs. Les patriarches chrétiens orthodoxes sont également tous barbus. C'est également commun chez les hindous, les sikhs, etc.

J'ai aussi des amis catholiques (et pratiquants) qui n'utiliseraient jamais ce terme de 'les barbus'.


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## Locape

Il se trouve que j'ai posé la question à une de mes collègues qui est d'origine algérienne, et sa mère, musulmane pratiquante qui a dû quitter l'Algérie dans les années 90 à cause des menaces du GIA envers sa famille (surtout son père), qualifie systématiquement les musulmans extrémistes de _barbus _: 'C'est à cause de ces barbus qu'on a dû quitter l'Algérie', 'je supporte pas de voir ces barbus à la télé', etc.

Je ne crois pas que ton expérience personnelle soit une preuve scientifique irréfutable...
Sinon, pour info, les hommes ne portaient pas de barbe au temps de Jésus de Nazareth, les premières représentations au IIe siècle sur des fresques le montrent sans barbe avec les cheveux courts. Les cheveux longs et la barbe sont apparus au Moyen-âge avec la mode européenne de l'époque.


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## WannaBFluent

Bah écoute, si ton amie le dit alors...


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## Nanon

Son of a preacher man said:


> I don't think jihadis works alongside 'darkies, coons, wogs', which is very much in the tone of Alf Garnet's 60s era, when jihadis weren't  on anyone's radar.  'Towelheads' is maybe better - I don't think the English would make much distinction between Bedouin and Arabian headgear.





mehoul said:


> that must refer to the keffiyeh worn in the Arabic peninsula, but when French people speak of "arabe" they think of North-African people, who do not wear a keffiyeh.


I don't think your average French racist makes much distinction between Arabs and Berbers, either. When talking about North African people, they would keep saying _bicot _and _bougnoule _.


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