# Pronombre reflexivo + by - I do it (by) myself



## Hector9

Bueno, estuve leyendo lecciones de todos lados y haciendo millones de ejercicios (por eso vengo a preguntar aquí como último recurso) y no termino de entender cuándo usar el pronombre reflexivo solo o cuando agregarle "by" + el pronombre reflexivo.

Lo que creo (aunque no sé si realmente es así) es que "by" + pronombre reflexivo se usa cuando la acción de un sujeto sucede _sin compañía de ninguna otra persona
_
Ejemplo: _I walked from the university to my house by myself_ (lo hice sólo, nadie me acompañaba)

Sin embargo: ¿Qué sucede en los siguientes casos?

_I cut with the shaver myself
I cut with the shaver by myself

They painted the house themselves
They painted the house by themselves_

¿En estas oraciones ambas alternativas son correctas? ¿Qué diferencia hay de usarlo con "by" o sin él?

Desde ya agradezco absolutamente todas las respuestas que me puedan dar, estudié y practiqué muchísimo el tema de "reflexive pronouns" pero me he quedado confundido con lo que pongo en este hilo.


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## Chris K

No hay ninguna diferencia entre: _

They painted the house themselves
They painted the house by themselves_

Yo diría que "by" no sería necesario, salvo cuando quieres enfatizar el éxito de la persona:

_You tied your shoes [all] by yourself? Good boy!_

El otro ejemplo no es claro. "I shaved myself"?


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## Hector9

First of all, thank you Chris K!



Chris K said:


> No hay ninguna diferencia entre: El otro ejemplo no es claro. "I shaved myself"?



Yes...isn't it correct? By shaving I mean this


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## Chris K

Hector9 said:


> First of all, thank you Chris K!
> 
> Yes...isn't it correct? By shaving I mean this



The correct verb is "to shave." You only "cut" yourself by accident when you're shaving. So you'd say "I shave myself." In this case, "I shave *by* myself" would mean you were alone when you did it.


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## Hector9

Chris K said:


> The correct verb is "to shave." You only "cut" yourself by accident when you're shaving. So you'd say "I shave myself." In this case, "I shave *by* myself" would mean you were alone when you did it.



So it's incorrect to say "_I cut with the razor myself", isn't it?
_
Then, should I say "_I cut by myself with the razor when I was shaving_" instead of the previous sentence?


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## Chris K

Hector9 said:


> So it's incorrect to say "_I cut with the razor myself", isn't it?
> _
> Then, should I say "_I cut by myself with the razor when I was shaving_" instead of the previous sentence?



"_I cut with the razor myself" _would never be correct. "_I *cut myself* with the razor" _would mean that I was shaving, and while I was shaving, I cut my skin accidentally.


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## Hector9

I think I see the point now, it's just that I thought it didn't matter the position of the reflexive pronoun (in this case "myself") be it after the verb or at the end of the sentence, it appears I was wrong and it has to go after the verb ¿only in this sentence or it's compulsory?

It's interesting because this is the first case where I see I cannot put the reflexive pronoun at the end as others sentences like:

_I built this house myself_
_I cut my hair myself_ (I think here "myself" should be after "cut", else it's wrong isn't it?)
_I did myself my homework_ (It's wrong again, isn't it? I think "myself" should be at the end)

Now I'm more confused than I was because I'm starting to think that the position of the reflexive verb depends only on a specific sentence and there's no general rule, right?

Yes, re-reading the sentence about the razor it didn't make any sense the way I wrote it but I cannot figure out which should be the position of the R.P (reflexive pronoun) in any sentence.


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## Chris K

"I cut my hair myself" is correct, and "I did my homework myself" is also correct.

Note that there is a difference between: "I built myself this house" (or "I built this house _for_ myself"), which is a statement about _for whom_ you built the house, and "I built this house myself," which is a statement about who built it. Although in this case the outcome is the same -- "X builds a house for X" -- that would not always be true. You could, for instance, say "I built my daughter's house myself," meaning that _you_ built it, not someone else, even though the house is not_ for _you at all.


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## Hector9

And "_I built myself my daughter's house_" is wrong because by saying "I built myself" means that the house if *for* me so it doesn't work with "_built myself my daughter's house_".

I'm right, aren't I?

And why "_I built this house for myself_" and not "_I built this house for me_"? Don't they mean the same? I ask you this because all the examples I've read before (on the explanations of my book) were like "by myself" at the end and not "for myself"

I appreciate your anwers Chris K.


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## Chris K

"I built myself my daughter's house" would be wrong, yes, unless you understood building your daughter's house to be for your own benefit.

"I built this house for me" isn't considered correct, although you will hear it colloquially. It would mean the same as "... for myself."


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## Hector9

Now everything is clear.

Thank you SO much for your time Chris K, you've helped me a lot, really.

I'm happy to have you on these Spanish-English forums (and please don't doubt to correct me if I make _any_ mistakes both gramatically or writing)


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## Forero

_They built a house by themselves._
Construyeron una casa solos (a solas).

_They built the house themselves._ = _They themselves built the house._
Ellos mismos construyeron la casa.

_They built themselves a house._
Se construyeron una casa.


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## Hector9

Hello Forero,

And "They built a house for themselves" = They built a house to live all together in it, I think.

And what if you and I are building a house for a family who will buy it after finished (the construction)? Could we say "_We ourselves built this house for them_"? I'm trying to say "Construimos esta casa nosotros mismos (ourselves, sin ayuda de otras personas) para ellos (for them)"

Maybe "for them" in this case works, doesn't it?


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## Chris K

"_We ourselves built this house for them_" is correct. A little unusual, but not impossible.


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## Hector9

Yes, I imagine the usual way is: "_We built this house for them_" but I tried to mix the reflexive pronoun "ourselves" with "for them" to see whether it worked or not.

"_We ourselves built this house for them_" is also a little unusual in Spanish, indeed.

I've learnt a lot today with both of your help as I've always had problems with this question.

Thank you both again.


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## Chris K

Hector9 said:


> Yes, I imagine the usual way is: "_We built this house for them_" but I tried to mix the reflexive pronoun "ourselves" with "for them" to see whether it worked or not.
> 
> "_We ourselves built this house for them_" is also a little unusual in Spanish, indeed.



It works, but in this case "ourselves" is not really functioning "reflexively." Instead, it lets the hearer know that we did the work without the assistance of others. You can even combine the two functions, in a few rare cases:

_I built this house by myself, for myself_ = without the aid of others, for my own benefit


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## Hector9

Chris K said:


> _I built this house by myself, for myself_ = without the aid of others, for my own benefit



I didn't know I could do this, very interesting.

I think that's all about this, I mean I do not think there are more combinations, I hope


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## Chris K

Hector9 said:


> I didn't know I could do this, very interesting.
> 
> I think that's all about this, I mean I do not think there are more combinations, I hope



I think we've tortured you enough!


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## Hector9

Yes but without any doubt it was the first and best torture of my life 

I hope to continue having more pleasant tortures like this 

Regards Chris!


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## Hector9

Here I am again, This time with *"of" + reflexive pronoun.*

I was watching a video on youtube of a singer who always teaches her fans to be respectful, friendly, moral and so on.

On a moment and during the show, she (the singer) talked to a little girl of the crowd and later (during the performance) other people bullied her. (because of envy and/or jealousy)

Then I've read a comment which says: 

"_Anyone who proclaims to be her fan and bullies and threatens this little girl who her took up on stage during her performance is not a true fan and should be ashamed of yourselves._"

And that's when I wondered, why "_be ashamed of yourselves_"? 

So my two doubts are:

1) Why not "_be ashamed of you_" or "_be ashamed by yourselves_" or "_be ashamed for themselves_" ("por ellos mismos, por justicia de los demás, however, I have a feeling that the last one is wrong)"

2) And also, I don't understand what the "yourselves" refers to. Does it refer to oneself as a fan? If so then it should be "of yourself" because of the singular, and if and only if it were "fans" then I would understand why the "yourselves" part.


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## ribran

Hey Hector,

That's not the only problem with this sentence, but let's focus on the last part. Whoever wrote it is clearly addressing "you people (who do this)," but that clashes with the way the beginning of the sentence is structured (third person _anyone_​). It's a pretty long sentence, so it's not surprising this should have happened.


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## Hector9

Thanks ribran, but I'm afraid I still don't understand what you mean 

Does the "yourselves" refer to "Anyone"? If I were the one who wrote such text (not literally) I would have written "yourself" to refer to the man who bullied the girl.

This is the first time I don't understand what the reflexive pronoun (_yourselves_ in this case) is connecting with. This case was a little complex to understand, too many subjects and objects...


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## Chris K

The pairing of  the pronouns "anyone" with "yourselves" is sloppy, that's all. The idea is clear, though: anyone who does X should be ashamed of himself / herself.


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## scratchtp

I think what ribran was saying is that the sentence should read:
"_Anyone who proclaims to be her fan and bullies and threatens this little girl who her took (she took) up on stage during her performance is not a true fan and should be ashamed of yourselves (him or herself/themselves)._"  
If it were yourself, the beginning of the sentence would have to be changed to agree, ¨If you claim to be her fan and (you) bully and threaten...¨

As for why it is ashamed of himself/herself I would say it is because of is the preposition used with ashamed.  
I am ashamed of the paper I wrote last night.
She is ashamed of herself.

My understanding of myself is that it can be
I cut myself.  Me corté
I cut it (the piece of wood, the carrots, whatever) myself.  Lo corté yo mismo
I cut it (the piece of wood, the carrots, whatever) by myself.  Lo corté yo solo 

I think when myself is used reflexively, you have to use the preposition that the verb generally uses as well.  For example, like ashamed of, but also
I depend on myself (Dependo de mí mismo)
I talk to myself (Hablo a mí mismo)

Hopefully I was helpful, and hopefully my translations to spanish were correct, I´m still a little fuzzy on this subject in spanish.


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## Hector9

Thank you Chris K and also thanks scrathtp, you were crystal clear! It was too helpful


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## ribran

The Oklahoman came in and clarified the words of the Texan. 

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I was just trying to avoid getting into the whole "singular they" mess (using a plural pronoun to refer back to a singular one).


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## Hector9

¿Cómo puedo decir "_Lady gaga se considera a ella misma una super estrella, bueno... no sólo ella sino que todos la consideran así_"

"_Lady gaga considers herself a superstar, well...not only she does but everyone_"?

"_Lady gaga considers herself a superstar, well...not only she considers herself that way but everyone consider her that way_"?


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## xqby

"Lady Gaga considers herself a superstar." Está bien. 

La segunda parte de la frase (o mejor la segunda frase: no deben combinarse con una coma sola) con un reflexivo sería como:
"Well, not only does she consider herself to be one, but so does everyone else."

Una tradducción más natural que evita el asunto:
"Well, not just her, everyone else does too."


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## Hector9

Thank you xqby


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## duvija

Chris K said:


> I think we've tortured you enough!



Speak for yourself!


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## FromPA

The confusion seem to be caused by different meanings of the reflexive pronoun depending on context.  I you are using the reflexive pronoun to describe an action that you have performed on your own body (I shaved myself/me afeité), then the reflexive pronoun is the object of the verb, it is positioned immediately after the verb, and you would never use "by" in this context.  

There are 2 other possible meanings of the reflexive pronoun, and the meaning can sometimes be ambiguous.  When we say, "by myself' it can either mean "alone/solo" or "without any help from others."  If I say, "I drink by myself," the context tells me that the meaning is "I drink alone."  "By myself' is not the object of the verb; it is an adverbial phrase that describes how the drinking is being done (alone, without anyone else present).  If I say, I drank the bottle of whiskey by myself, "bottle" is the object of the verb, and "by myself" is ambiguous - it can mean either "alone" or "without any help from others (I drank the entire contents)."  If I omit the "by" and say, "I drank the bottle myself,"  the ambiguity disappears, and it means that I drank the bottle without any help from others (I drank the entire contents).   So it is the use of "by" + reflexive pronoun that introduces the ambiguity because it can have the additional meaning of "alone/solo."


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## Hector9

This is a very important topic where I'm always learning something else and it seems that I never finish to understand this, so thanks FromPA as you're helping me with this too.

This is my conclusion (until now):

_I shaved myself ----> Me afeité._

By adding "by" a sentence can have two different meanings:

_I drink by myself_ ----> Bebo yo mismo (without anybody's help)

_I drink by myself_ ----> Bebo yo solo (without anybody's company, I'm alone when doing it)

I'm not saying that this is correct but is the way I got/understood it.

So that's why I don't understand why you say "_If I say, "I drink by myself," the context tells me that the meaning is "I drink alone._" how is that possible?

After that you say you do know that it means _alone_ because "by myself" is and adverbial and not the object, well, I don't finish to understand when "by myself" is an adverbial or an object... maybe you can give me more examples.

I, myself, wouldn't know if it either mean "alone" or "without anyone's help" because as you said, "_It has two meanings: doing an action alone or without anyone's help_" and I drink by myself (bebo yo mismo) or I drink by myself (bebo yo solo) are written the same way in English I think, so how do you realize of what I've just said?

Sorry If I sound a little repetitive but this is very important for me as I always find it written in English, everyday.

Thank you again for taking you time to explain me this as clear as possible.

P.S. In case there's any Spanish speaker who understands this topic please you can help here too.


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## FromPA

QUOTE=Hector9:
This is my conclusion (until now):
_I shaved myself_ ---> Me afeité 
By adding "by" it can have two different meanings:
_I drink by myself_ ----> Bebo yo mismo (without anybody's help)
_I drink by myself_ ----> Bebo yo solo (without anybody's company, I'm alone when doing it)
I'm not saying that this is correct but is the way I got/understood it.  Correct

So that's why I don't understand why you say "_If I say, "I drink by myself," the context tells me that the meaning is "I drink alone._" how is that possible?
Actually, it could have both meanings, but when I used the verb "to drink," I was intending it to mean "to drink alcohol," and in that context it would typically be construed to mean "I drink alone" (unless the person is disabled).  If a baby is drinking from a glass for the first time, you could say "she's drinking it by herself," and the meaning would be "without help from anyone." 

After that you say you do know that it means _alone_ because "by myself" is and adverbial and not the object, well, I don't finish to understand when "by myself" is an adverbial or an object... maybe you can give me more examples.  It can only be an object when it is being used reflexively - i.e., when a person performs an action on himself; when the subject of the sentence is also the direct object of the sentence.  Examples:  he cuts himself, he kills himself, he loves himself, he washes himself, he prepares himself, he doubts himself. In all of these examples, the reflexive pronoun tells us that the action of the verb impacts the subject of the sentence.

I, myself, wouldn't know if it either mean "alone" or "without anyone's help" because as you said, "_It has two meanings: doing an action alone or without anyone's help_" and I drink by myself (bebo yo mismo) or I drink by myself (bebo yo solo) are written the same way in English I think, so how do you realize of what I've just said? From the context.


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## scratchtp

A few corrections,



> After that you say you do know that it means _alone_ because "by myself" is and adverbial and not the object, well, I don't finish to understand (I would say: I don´t understand/I still don´t understand...  finish to understand, or finish to verb (finish to run, finish to eat) doesn´t make sense to me)when "by myself" is an adverbial or an object... maybe you can give me more examples.
> 
> I, myself, wouldn't know if it either means "alone" or "without anyone's help" because as you said, "_It has two meanings: doing an action alone or without anyone's help_" and I drink by myself (bebo yo mismo) or I drink by myself (bebo yo solo) are written the same way in English I think, so how do you realize of what (do you understand what) I've just said?
> 
> Sorry If I sound a little repetitive but this is very important for me as I always find it written in English, everyday.
> 
> Thank you again for taking you (the?) time to explain me this (explain this to me/explain to me how this works) as clearly as possible.
> 
> P.S. In case there's any Spanish speaker who understands this topic please you can help here too.



I tried to think of a more general rule, but I think fromPA is right... It very much depends on context.

A few other examples:

I cooked dinner by myself (somewhat ambiguous, if it is someone who has never cooked before, I might think that it means they did it without any help, whereas if I know the person cooks a lot I would assume that they meant they cooked dinner alone, without anyone to accompany them)

I watched the movie by myself (not really ambiguous, I can´t really imagine a context in which this wouldn´t mean that someone watched a movie alone)

A small guideline would probably be that the easier the thing being talked about is, the more likely I am to assume that by myself means alone, without the company of others, while the harder the thing is, the more likely it is to be ambiguous.

I ate some ice cream by myself. (pretty mundane, probably something they did alone without any company)

I ate 6 gallons of ice cream by myself. (wow, How did you eat that without anyone helping you?  This one could also be ambiguous, if they were making a sarcastic joke about how they ate that much ice cream to comfort themselves because they had no friends or something of the sort)


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## katerpudy

Hector9 said:


> Here I am again, This time with *"of" + reflexive pronoun.*
> 
> I was watching a video on youtube of a singer who always teaches her fans to be respectful, friendly, moral and so on.
> 
> On a moment and during the show, she (the singer) talked to a little girl of the crowd and later (during the performance) other people bullied her. (because of envy and/or jealousy)
> 
> Then I've read a comment which says:
> 
> "_Anyone who proclaims to be her fan and bullies and threatens this little girl who her took up on stage during her performance is not a true fan and should be ashamed of yourselves._"
> 
> And that's when I wondered, why "_be ashamed of yourselves_"?
> 
> So my two doubts are:
> 
> 1) Why not "_be ashamed of you_" or "_be ashamed by yourselves_" or "_be ashamed for themselves_" ("por ellos mismos, por justicia de los demás, however, I have a feeling that the last one is wrong)"
> 
> 2) And also, I don't understand what the "yourselves" refers to. Does it refer to oneself as a fan? If so then it should be "of yourself" because of the singular, and if and only if it were "fans" then I would understand why the "yourselves" part.



I'm not a native speaker of English, but from my "guts feeling" for the language I would say that the appropriate pronoun at the end of the sentence should be "themselves" (anyone who ... should be ashamed of _themselves_). But we should wait for the correct answer by somebody who is a native speaker of English.


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