# кабы - only used in idioms?



## eni8ma

I suppose кабы would never be used in everyday speech - except perhaps playfully to emphasise a point?

если бы да кабы - if it would, yes, if only => if only, oh! if only ...

I know да doesn't mean oh! but to keep the overall sense, in English it seems better as oh!

Found it in:
если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы
If only, yes, if only my mouth would grow mushrooms!

Apparently the equivalent of "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride"; or "wishful thinking won't get you what you want".


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## yoysl

As far as I know кабы is not found outside of set expressions like the one you just found. Да is a funny little modal particle that you won't find a good English equivalent for. You're right, "oh!" works sometimes, but in other contexts it can mean "and," "but," or (archaically) introduce the subjective (as in, "да здравствует!").

And it also means "yes," obviously. 

Edit: here да does NOT mean yes. It's really just emphatic, I'd say, and I'm not sure how literally it can be rendered in English. Maybe someone has an idea?


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## eni8ma

So you would never mockingly say "если бы да кабы"?

Or would you use different words to say "if only, oh! if only"? (as a stand-alone remark, with emphasis on the oh!  ) 
e.g. to someone who keeps wanting things they can't have (like wings  )
- in a friendly way, of course.


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## yoysl

That I don't know. You'll have to wait for a native speaker to answer. I'm just a linguist. 

http://www.diclib.com/кабы/show/en/examples_ru/К/4168/0/0/1/23114

These are uses of кабы NOT in idioms, but in the press, so I was wrong. Sorry!


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> So you would never mockingly say "если бы да кабы"?
> 
> Or would you use different words to say "if only, oh! if only"? (as a stand-alone remark, with emphasis on the oh!  )
> e.g. to someone who keeps wanting things they can't have (like wings  )
> - in a friendly way, of course.



1. Если бы да кабы (да во рту бы выросли грибы - full version) is a sarcastic / mocking response to a wishful phrase, starting with "если бы" (if only).

- Если бы у меня была тыща рублей - if only I had a thousand bucks.
- Если бы, да кабы́. Где её взять, тыщу-то - Yeah, right, and I wish I was Warren friggin' Buffet. Where am I gonna get it, a thousand?

2. Yes "кабы" is usable, but it is somewhat archaic. It is used, for starters, in "Сказка о Царе Салтане" by Pushkin:

"*Кабы я была царица*" - говорит одна девица, "то на весь крещёный мир приготовила б я пир" - "*If I were zarina*" - says one of the girls, "I would make a great feast for the whole christian world".

Today, not often, one can still hear it, as а colloquial folksy way of saying "если бы":

*Кабы я знал *- нипочём бы туда не пошел - If I knew, I would never go there.
Эх, *кабы* его хоть разок, хоть краешком глаза увидеть - oh, if I could see him only once, if only for a short second.

3. "Да" in this sense, (and it is often used like this) simply is another way of saying "and" and replaces "и".
Я да ты = Я и ты.
Два да еще два - четыре - two and two is four.


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## William Stein

eni8ma said:


> I suppose кабы would never be used in everyday speech - except perhaps playfully to emphasise a point?
> 
> если бы да кабы - if it would, yes, if only => if only, oh! if only ...
> 
> I know да doesn't mean oh! but to keep the overall sense, in English it seems better as oh!
> 
> Found it in:
> если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы
> If only, yes, if only my mouth would grow mushrooms!
> 
> Apparently the equivalent of "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride"; or "wishful thinking won't get you what you want".



Hi eni8ma,

You seem to be using some extremely thorough grammar book that includes all kinds of rare and archaic terms and endings. That is nice to have as a reference once you have learned Russian, but it's too much information to assimilate all at once. 

*<...>*


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## Rosett

В современной песне встретилось:
Кабы не было зимы,
А все время лето,


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## Maroseika

morzh said:


> Если бы да кабы (да во рту бы выросли грибы - full version) is a sarcastic / mocking response to a wishful phrase, starting with "если бы" (if only).


Let me add that the full version is even longer:
Если бы да кабы́, да во рту росли грибы, то это был бы не рот, а целый огород.

And quite a few from Dahl:
Ка́бы не ка́бы, так бы Ивана Великого в бутылку посадил. (Иван Великий - famous bell tower in Kremlin).
Ка́бы дедушка не дедушка, так был бы он бабушка. Ки́бы на твою хитрость, да не моя простота! 
Ка́бы не ка́бы, так жил бы - не помер, а помер - не погнил.

Though the word is rare but I heard it many times and sometimes use myself as "if".


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## elemika

Yes, the word is used nowadays and not only in idioms;
for example it makes the phrase sound like in a fairy tale (expressing some wish, I'd say):

если бы я был депутатом... vs кабы я был депутатом...
если бы я был президентом...vs кабы я был президентом...

And I like this one:

Кабы дали волю мне,
я б без промедленья
вычеркнул союзы все
в сложных предложеньях:
*....*........................

 типа: *ибо, коли *и
из условных - *кабы*,
из союзов целевых 
устаревший - *дабы*.

BTW: if ifs and ands were pots and pans ....


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> Let me add that the full version is even longer:
> Если бы да кабы́, да во рту росли грибы, то это был бы не рот, а целый огород.




Yes, yesterday I wanted to add the part about the "огород", but forgot


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## Sobakus

Outside of stable expressions I think both кабы and как бы can be used to mean the same, кабы being more colloquial.


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## morzh

Sobakus said:


> Outside of stable expressions I think both кабы and как бы can be used to mean the same, кабы being more colloquial.



"Как бы" and "кабы" the same?
I think not. There's some narrow crossing in usage, even that is, I think, cannot be achieved by directly dropping one instead of another, but they are not the same by far.


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## Sobakus

morzh said:


> "Как бы" and "кабы" the same?
> I think not. There's some narrow crossing in usage, even that is, I think, cannot be achieved by directly dropping one instead of another, but they are not the same by far.



Why, I didn't say they were the same, I said they could be used to mean the same here. I personally don't see how "Как бы я был миллионером, полетел бы на Луну" and "Кабы я был миллионером, полетел бы на Луну" could be different.


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## Maroseika

On my point of view "Как бы я был миллионером, полетел бы на Луну" means nothing. Как бы doesn't mean 'if', it means only "as if".


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## morzh

Maroseika said:


> On my point of view "Как бы я был миллионером, полетел бы на Луну" means nothing. Как бы doesn't mean 'if', it means only "as if".



My point exactly.
"Как бы ..." does have meanings, but those are different ones: 

1. Как бы я был миллионером - What I would be doing if I were a millionaire.
2. Как бы мне стать миллионером - What can I do to become a millionaire.
3. Я как бы стал миллионером - As if I became a millionaire.

But what works here is "кабы мне стать миллионером, полетел бы я на Луну". But not "как бы".


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## Ben Jamin

yoysl said:


> ... but in other contexts it can mean "and," "but," or (archaically) introduce the subjective (as in, "да здравствует!").



You mean subjunctive? Then it can be translated as 'let him ...!


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## Natalisha

Maroseika said:


> On my point of view "Как бы я был миллионером, полетел бы на Луну" means nothing. Как бы doesn't mean 'if', it means only "as if".


I agree.


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## Maroseika

Ben Jamin said:


> You mean subjunctive? Then it can be translated as 'let him ...!


Да здравствует is not subjunctive, this is imperative (illocutive - побудительное наклонение).


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## eni8ma

как бы - however,  no matter
как бы он ни был бога́т — however rich he may be

да has three meanings, depending on how it is used.
1. yes
2. and, but - conjunction
3. let, may (+ verb) - particle

In да здра́вствует, да means "let/may" + verb.
да здра́вствует - literally, "may prosper" - in this instance "long live" (as already mentioned)

если бы да кабы - there is no verb, so да can't be the third meaning. 
It's a choice between yes, and, but
if and if only
if but if only
if, yes, if only - seems to make the best sense in this instance.

Found this usage of кабы
Что это? - Кабы я знал.


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## Sobakus

eni8ma said:


> если бы да кабы - there is no verb, so да can't be the third meaning.
> It's a choice between yes, and, but
> if and if only
> if but if only
> if, yes, if only - seems to make the best sense in this instance.



In this case "да" means "and", the expression itself is similar to the English "ifs and buts".



Natalisha said:


> I agree.


All right then, looks like I've mixed the two up. But nevertheless isn't кабы originally just a shortened version of как бы?


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## yoysl

Ben Jamin said:


> You mean subjunctive? Then it can be translated as 'let him ...!



Yep, subjunctive. Sorry about the typo.  "let" or "may" is usually a translation for this use of the subjunctive in English, so in да здравствует, the translation is "may/let __ prosper!" (idiomatically in English, "long live!"). Anyway, the main question isn't about да, so sorry for bringing it up!


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## Sobakus

By the way, besides the two discussed in this thread there когда бы and где бы, also meaning "if".


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## morzh

Sobakus said:


> In this case "да" means "and", the expression itself is similar to the English "ifs and buts".
> 
> 
> All right then, looks like I've mixed the two up. But nevertheless isn't кабы originally just a shortened version of как бы?



кабы́
"если бы",  др.-русск. кабы "как будто, как бы, словно, точно, около"; *обычно  объясняют из какбы, стар. *како бы* (Преобр. I, 279), *но, вероятно,  следует видеть здесь обнаречившуюся падежную форму *ка; ср. пока́,*  пока́мест, болr. ка в отка "с каких пор" и т. д. (ср. Бернекер 1, 673).  Об этом, возм., свидетельствует укр. коби́ "с тем чтобы, если".


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## eni8ma

как бы - however,  no matter
кабы - if only
если - if
если бы - if it were
4th meaning for да - interjection - really! oh!

Thus:
если бы да кабы: if it were, oh! if only ...

если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы
if (it were), oh! if only my mouth would grow mushrooms

"ifs and buts" is used used to describe the reasons people give for not wanting to do something - saying "yes, but ..." "but what if ...".


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## eni8ma

когда бы - whenever
где бы - wherever
как бы - however

hence 
если бы - if ever 

если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы ... 
if ever, (and, but, yes, oh!) if only my mouth would grow mushrooms ...


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> как бы - however,  no matter as if


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> когда бы *ни*- whenever
> где бы *ни* - wherever
> как бы - however as if


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## Sobakus

eni8ma said:


> как бы - however,  no matter
> кабы - if only
> если - if
> если бы - if it were
> 4th meaning for да - interjection - really! oh!
> 
> Thus:
> если бы да кабы: if it were, oh! if only ...
> 
> если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы
> if (it were), oh! if only my mouth would grow mushrooms
> 
> "ifs and buts" is used used to describe the reasons people give for not wanting to do something - saying "yes, but ..." "but what if ...".



In this expression "да" simply means "and". In this light one can see how "ifs and buts" is similar: если бы да кабы means literally "if and if". 



> когда бы - whenever
> где бы - wherever
> как бы - however



These combinations don't mean anything without context, your meanings require ни, as morzh pointed out. Как бы means however as in "however strong the wind blew, it couldn't stop him", but again only in context.


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## yoysl

eni8ma said:


> как бы - however,  no matter
> кабы - if only
> если - if
> если бы - if it were
> 4th meaning for да - interjection - really! oh!
> 
> Thus:
> если бы да кабы: if it were, oh! if only ...
> 
> если бы да кабы, во рту росли бы грибы
> if (it were), oh! if only my mouth would grow mushrooms


A number of native speakers have agreed that да means 'and' here ...


eni8ma said:


> "ifs and buts" is used used to describe the reasons people give for not wanting to do something - saying "yes, but ..." "but what if ...".


This is true. I'm not sure we have an equivalent in English. It happens.


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## morzh

Sobakus said:


> In this expression "да" simply means "and". In this light one can see how "ifs and buts" is similar: если бы да кабы means literally "if and if".



"Ifs and buts" is only similar to "если бы да кабы" when used in a proverb:
"*If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?*"
Which is more or less an English counterpart of "если бы да кабы, да ворту бы выросли грибы".

However:

By itself "ifs and buts" are not at all similar, as they (eni8ma already had pointed that out) mean "отговорки", that is "excuses" as to why something is too difficult or impossible to accomplish.

The typical usage of it is "*No ifs or buts*". Actually I never heard it used outside this phrase. Meaning: "Please, no excuses allowed".


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## morzh

eni8ma said:


> "ifs and buts" is used used to describe the reasons people give for not  wanting to do something - saying "yes, but ..." "but what if ...".





yoysl said:


> This is true. I'm not sure we have an equivalent in English. It happens.



Did you mean Russian? Eni8ma is English native speaker, you know.....

Second, (I already pointed this) "ifs and buts" mostly used in "no ifs and buts", so you have to look for a counterpart for this, not just "ifs and buts".

Which is easy:

"*Отговорки не принимаются*", "возражения не принимаются."

If you still want "ifs and buts" in Russian - "*отговорки*".


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## Sobakus

morzh said:


> "Ifs and buts" is only similar to "если бы да кабы" when used in a proverb:
> "*If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?*"
> Which is more or less an English counterpart of "если бы да кабы, да ворту бы выросли грибы".
> 
> However:
> 
> By itself "ifs and buts" are not at all similar, as they (eni8ma already had pointed that out) mean "отговорки", that is "excuses" as to why something is too difficult or impossible to accomplish.
> 
> The typical usage of it is "*No ifs or buts*". Actually I never heard it used outside this phrase. Meaning: "Please, no excuses allowed".



Err, what I meant was that in both cases you take two subjunctive conjunctions, put a connecting conjunction inbetween, and you get an expression meaning "stop using the conjunctive subjunctions".


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## morzh

OK so you were not after explaining the meaning. 
Sure. It looked like it to me. Sorry.


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## morzh

What time is it in S-P anyway?


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## yoysl

morzh said:


> Did you mean Russian? Eni8ma is English native speaker, you know.....


I know he is. I did a bad job formatting the quote. I meant to say we don't have an equivalent for если бы да кабы.

edit ... a LITERAL equivalent. Not doing so well with writing today. 
edit2... I mean, translating it literally will sound silly and redundant in English no matter what.


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## Sobakus

morzh said:


> OK so you were not after explaining the meaning.
> Sure. It looked like it to me. Sorry.



No problem, I'm not being very elaborate lately  And yes it may have _something_ to do with the time in S-P right now


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## yoysl

Maroseika said:


> Да здравствует is not subjunctive, this is imperative (illocutive - побудительное наклонение).



да здравствует is subjunctive. I think it may be borrowed from Old Church Slavonic, I'm not sure. It is used frequently in OCS, as in:

pilatъ že otъvěšta imъ glagol͡ę, xoštete li *da otъpouštǫ* vamъ cěsar͡ь ijudeiska?
'But Pilate answered to them, saying, "do you want *that I release* to you the King of the Jews?"'

You're right, though, the illocutionary force of да здравствует in modern Russian is more of an imperative. The same situation is in English, our "subjunctives" are usually understood as imperatives, e.g. "God bless you!" is technically subjunctive, as in "may/let God bless you," but today it's impossible to distinguish this form from an imperative.


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## Maroseika

Maybe historically some form of Imerative really go back to Subjunctive, but in modern Russian да здравствует is Imperative: да (=пусть) + Future verb, like in:
да здравствует
да будет так
да будет тебе известно, что...

Though it is really used in some stable Subj. constructions: да чтоб я сдох! But I'm not sure about the role of да here, because it can be used equally well without да. 

And your example looks more like modern Subj. - with the verb in the Past Tense (?) and да = дабы, чтобы (тще пусть!).
Да is very polysemantic word in Russian and its ancestors, and some of its meaning, such as 'yes', is still not very clear etymologically.


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## yoysl

Maroseika said:


> Maybe historically some form of Imerative really go back to Subjunctive, but in modern Russian да здравствует is Imperative: да (=пусть) + Future verb, like in:
> да здравствует
> да будет так
> да будет тебе известно, что...
> 
> Though it is really Subj. in some stable sayings: да чтоб я сдох!
> 
> And your example looks more like modern Subj. - with the verb in the Past Tense (?) and да = дабы, чтобы (тще пусть!).
> Да is very polysemantic word in Russian and its ancestors, and some of its meaning, such as 'yes', is still not very clear etymologically.



The example I gave is a perfective non-past verb: хотите ли да отпущу царя евреев? is the literal rendering in modern Russian (not grammatically correct, but the cases, tenses, etc., are the same). This OCS construction _means_ the same as Russian хотите ли чтоб я отпустил его? but grammatically it uses the construction да здравствует. And this is the subjunctive. да будет так literally means "let it be so", да здравствует literally means "may [it] prosper". I agree that the illocutionary force of these expressions is that of the imperative, but grammatically and historically these are forms of the subjunctive. More evidence? Look at да пребудет с тобой сила. That's a literal translation of the English subjunctive, "may the force be with you," it's not an imperative.


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## Maroseika

yoysl said:


> The example I gave is a perfective non-past verb: хотите ли да отпущу царя евреев? is the literal rendering in modern Russian (not grammatically correct, but the cases, tenses, etc., are the same). This OCS construction _means_ the same as Russian хотите ли чтоб я отпустил его?


Thank you for clarification. I agree that grammatically it is Subj. in modern Russian.



> but grammatically it uses the construction да здравствует. And this is the subjunctive. да будет так literally means "let it be so", да здравствует literally means "may [it] prosper".


But this I cannot understand.
I think we are mixing up historical point of view of the Mood and contemporary one.
According to the latter, да здравствует is a kind of Imperative:  § 1480.


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## yoysl

Maroseika said:


> Thank you for clarification. I agree that grammatically it is Subj. in modern Russian.
> 
> 
> But this I cannot understand.
> I think we are mixing up historical point of view of the Mood and contemporary one.
> According to the latter, да здравствует is a kind of Imperative:  § 1480.



"Такие сочетания (как _да здравствует_, и т.д.), абсолютно регулярные в своем образовании, обычно *трактуются как* аналитические формы 3 л. ед. и мн. ч. повелит. накл. глагола."

Isn't this basically what you said before? They are usually understood as imperatives, even though grammatically they are something different?


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## Maroseika

Yes, I think so. Gramatically they are 3rd person Present, but semantically they are Imperative (illocution). But Subjunctive in modern Russian expresses only conjecture and possibility, and not illocution   (§ 1488).


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## eni8ma

There was a thread that said если бы = кабы


morzh said:


> Today, not often, one can still hear it, as а colloquial folksy way of saying "если бы"





Sobakus said:


> если бы да кабы means literally "if and if".


However, that is not how people speak in English.  If the strict literal translation sounds "wrong" to a native speaker, it  must be changed to something that keeps the original sense, while  sounding fluent in that language.

So, I was hoping that "if, oh! if only" kept the original flavour (or just oh! if only); the intention being to express a certain wishfulness, which is suggested by "if" being repeated.


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## Sobakus

eni8ma said:


> There was a thread that said если бы = кабы
> 
> 
> 
> However, that is not how people speak in English.  If the strict literal translation sounds "wrong" to a native speaker, it  must be changed to something that keeps the original sense, while  sounding fluent in that language.
> 
> So, I was hoping that "if, oh! if only" kept the original flavour (or just oh! if only).



"Oh, if only" expresses something different, i.e. a hope for something to happen. "Если бы да кабы" expresses your dislike of someone using these two conjunctions too much, i.e. wishing and guessing too much, it can't be used to express a wish, it expresses irony by default. But if you do understand that, and mean that "if, oh! if only" can be used as a parody of someone speaking that way, then I guess it can. I just doubt it will be obvious in English. It's just that its Russian equivalent "если бы, ах, если бы!" wouldn't express irony, it would be understood literally as a wish.


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## eni8ma

Sobakus said:


> "Если бы да кабы" expresses your dislike of someone using these two conjunctions too much, i.e. wishing and guessing too much, it can't be used to express a wish, it expresses irony by default.
> 
> But if you do understand that, and mean that "if, oh! if only" can be used as a parody of someone speaking that way, then I guess it can.
> 
> I just doubt it will be obvious in English. It's just that its Russian equivalent "если бы, ах, если бы!" wouldn't express irony, it would be understood literally as a wish.



"if, oh! if only" does indeed express irony, and can be used to parody someone expressing wishful thinking.  Yes it is obvious in English - that's why I have been suggesting it.

"если бы, ах, если бы!" is the transliteration, which does not keep the original sense or flavour of the English expression. Similarly "if and if" does not keep the original sense or flavour of the Russian phrase; so I was looking for a better way to say it in English.


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## Natalisha

It seems our forum members did their best to explain the meaning of the phrase. I've been thinking for long how else we could do it. I've got one idea, though it's not the best one.

When the person tells you all the time "Вот если бы...", "в случае..., мы бы..." You can say "если бы да кабы". It's important to show that it's not a wish, so maybe the phrase 'if only and in case...' can work here. 

By the way, I like your variant as well.


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## Maroseika

For me as a Russian native если and кабы are absolute synonims in this phrase and this is exactly why they are together. 
Cf.: 
Авось да небось к добру не доведут. 
Авоська веревку вьет, небоська петлю закидывает.

So if you are looking for the best English translation, it maybe worth of taking two words both meaning 'if' (something like 'ifs and perhaps', 'ifs and probablies').


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## eni8ma

Ok, just saw those latest comments.

You people are the native Russian speakers, and you have provided a good explanation of what the Russian phrase means.
As a native English speaker, I have been seeking a phrase that sounds good in English.

"if only and in case...", "ifs and perhaps", "ifs and probablies"
We'd never say any of those - however, I do see what you are getting at.

Trust me, a good English translation is "if, oh! if only".  After all, although it is a legitimate expression, no one speaks like that in ordinary conversation, so it really does express the gentle mocking of wishful thinking (can be sarcastic, too, of course - depends on tone of voice).

It also preserves the repetition of "if".


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## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> Trust me, a good English translation is "if, oh! if only".





Natalisha said:


> By the way, I like your variant as well.





> so it really does express the gentle mocking of wishful thinking (can be sarcastic, too, of course - depends on tone of voice).


 
Yes, I wanted to say a few words about the intonation, too, but then forgot.


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## eni8ma

natalisha said:


> by the way, i like your variant as well.


Я тот увидела, Наталиша   Спасибо

было очень интересно!
Всем спасибо за помощь


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