# Se + subjuntive



## FloMar

I’ve been watching my favourite Brazilian  soap opera as a way of improving my Portuguese. I heard Se você quer com ele.  I thought it should be se você quiser casar come ele because se signals use of the future subjunctive unless it translates as whether.  However, I think that in the first sentence se = as As you want to marry him, you should therefore put up with his foibles.  Please confirm that se meaning as is followed by the indicative.   Another question that I have is when to use ser feliz and estar feliz. Raquel, in Vale Tudo, talking about her fiancé says: Acho que podemos ser felizes juntos.  I can’t understand why the verb wouldn’t be estar. What’s the best way of saying tomorrow morning? I heard Amanh
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 da manhã, but want to say Amanhã de manhã.


Many thanks


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## pfaa09

Se = If (in most of the cases)
Ser Feliz = A more stable condition. In general, that person _is/é_ happy.
Estar feliz = A temporary condition. Tom _is/está_ happy because the national team has won the game.
To be = ser ou estar ( in many verbal forms, just like in English).
"Acho que podemos ser felizes juntos"
"I guess/think we can _be/ser_ happy together" *Estar* _don't fit/it's wrong_ in this sentence.

Tomorrow morning = Amanhã de manhã
Tomorrow in the morning = Amanhã pela manhã


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## Carfer

> se signals use of the future subjunctive unless it translates as whether


Não necessariamente. 
_- 'se você quer casar com ele_', isto é, se a vontade de casar existe neste momento, indicativo presente, portanto.
- _'se você quiser casar com ele_', isto é, se vier a ter essa vontade no futuro. Como é hipotético, pede conjuntivo.


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## metaphrastes

FloMar said:


> Acho que podemos ser felizes juntos


Florence, I add to the good explanation of pfaa that, in Portuguese, the difference between _*ser *_and _*estar *_is very marked: _*ser *_has to do with our essence, our true self, our true nature, the way we are born, our temperament and personality with so many traits one cannot change; _*estar*_, as already said, has to do with temporary, transient conditions, such as being in bad mood, being ill, working temporarily in some job, &c.

Then, if one says _Eu penso que podemos estar felizes juntos, _this sounds definitively that there is no hope or expectation that the relationship will work or endure for any considerable time. It sounds actually as a very short lived expectation: from one day or night to some weeks, no more than that.

That being so, there is even a jargon for a casual boyfriend or girlfriend


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## metaphrastes

FloMar said:


> the best way of saying tomorrow morning? I heard Amanh
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> da manhã, but want to say Amanhã de manhã.


Everywhere, the correct form is _amanhã de manhã. "De manhã" _is a locution that works as an adverb, and it means _"during the morning period or part of any given day". "Da manhã" _is not an idiom in this case, and it would mean something related with a given, specific morning of a specific day.

However, one would say _oito horas *da *manhã _or _onze horas *da *manhã. _Perhaps because we are specifying the precise hour of a definite morning - in general, today's morning.


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## gato radioso

Hi Florence: I'm not a native speaker, but we have also in Spanish the same duality ser/estar and it's so tricky for foreigners as the English duality make/do can seem for us.
Moreover the usage of each of these forms is quite similar in both Iberian languages but not exactly the same, I.e.: in Portugal married people "é casada", por cá "está casada" embora o casamento dure 30 anos.
I can give you a tip which was useful for me:
Use "ser" for permanent or general traits:
"O mar é azul / A batata e nutritiva...."
and use "estar" for things that have to be proved or experienced before being stated:
"A sopa está fria / As roupas estavam encharcadas"
I hope it helps.


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## FloMar

It's still a bit tricky for me, but I can use some of the useful examples given of the more subtle differences (ser/estar feliz) as reminders, so many thanks.


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## metaphrastes

gato radioso said:


> Use "ser" for permanent or general traits:
> "O mar é azul / A batata e nutritiva...."
> and use "estar" for things that have to be proved or experienced before being stated:
> "A sopa está fria / As roupas estavam encharcadas"



Another example:
_Pedro *está* doente (he got a cold, but within a few days he probably will be well)
Pedro *é* doente (he suffers from a chronic disease from childhood)

Pedro *está* coxo (he got hurt while playing soccer and through some days he is lame)
Pedro *é* coxo (he is born with some disability, or he got some disability due to an accident or disease)_


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## FloMar

I get it in the examples above, but I feel it's about impact and perception in other cases: In the soap Vale Tudo I have heard Cesar say você está louco? to a man that accused him of stealing money in hard currency.  Cesar's point being that if he had that kind of money ($800.000), he would have taken the first plane out of the country.  It surprised me that he used estar, because if I were to suggest that someone was mad in that wold I would ask rhetorically você é louco to have a greater impact.  I suppose the difference is slight: in English we could say: Are you feeling alright (i.e. inferring did someone put something in your tea to make you come up with such a suggestion?) and are you mad (i.e. you were born that way that's why you've come up with that suggeston) Both mean the same, but the second has a greater impact. Do you agree with my reasoning in relation to esta/ser and louco? or when someone says ser + louco are we only talking about a medical condition (insanity) and when we use estar (a momentary lapse in judgement/ rationale?


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## pfaa09

When we know the person, and we know he is not crazy, we say: Estás louco? Because of some action in that particular moment.
If we don't know the person at all, we may say: Você é louco? Because we don't have behavior references of that person.


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## metaphrastes

FloMar said:


> when someone says ser + louco are we only talking about a medical condition (insanity) and when we use estar (a momentary lapse in judgement/ rationale?


Yes, it is so, you got it.
Now, of course, between friends, one may tease another saying: _"Você é louco!" _because of some eccentricity or imprudent behaviour, though not thinking the other suffers any mental disease. It is just an exaggeration.
But now, the face-value of the words is exactly as you got, no more, no less.


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## FloMar

obrigada pelo esclarecimento


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## verdas gong

As for ser/estar, you can perfectly use ser feliz for everything: "agora eu sou feliz" is correct Portuguese just like "o paciente é estável." Here ser is used for temporary states, these are crystalized/conserved forms from old Portuguese which had no estar/ser contrast, ser was used for both.


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## pfaa09

verdas gong said:


> As for ser/estar, you can perfectly use ser feliz for everything:


I think you are not helping flomar. There are a lot of differences.



verdas gong said:


> "agora eu sou feliz"


Isto só acontece se a pessoa passou um mau período na sua vida, e agora finalmente
as coisas correm-lhe bem, e ela pode dizer: Agora sou feliz (no geral, a vida dessa pessoa está no bom caminho)



verdas gong said:


> "o paciente é estável."


*Só* utilizamos esta forma para dizermos como é o paciente, e não qual a condição dele.
É mais usual alguém se referir a um paciente de outra forma, por exemplo: O paciente é calmo/nervoso/, reage bem a isto, reage mal àquilo
Um enfermeiro a falar com um médico diz: "O paciente está estável" A sua condição está estabilizada.


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## FloMar

I think I may be confusing a few languages, but for some reason I want to say *é bem se apressarmos* instead of é bom que apressemos. Is at least  one of these sentences correct?


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## jazyk

É bom apressarmo-nos./É bom nos apressarmos.


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## Carfer

Penso que a segunda está correcta: '_é bom que nos apressemos_' (é desejável/conveniente/ que nos dêmos pressa) ou '_é bom que apressemos_', mas, neste último caso faz falta indicar, se não estiver implícito, aquilo que é desejável/conveniente/ ser apressado (a conclusão de uma tradução, por exemplo).


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## machadinho

FloMar said:


> I think I may be confusing a few languages, but for some reason I want to say *é bem se apressarmos* instead of é bom que apressemos. Is at least  one of these sentences correct?


Appearances are deceptive here, but I think something is wrong with your exchange so far. The _{se}_ in _{é bem se apressarmos}_ could be a conjunction (_conjunção integrante_) rather than a pronoun _({me}, {te}, {se}, {nos})_. In this case, what @FloMar meant was {é bom se apressarmos algo ou alguém}, and @jazyk and @Carfer's comments would be right but beside the point. If I'm wrong though, @FloMar's _{é bem se apressarmos}_ is *not* a '_se_ + subjuntive' phrase (thread topic), and @FloMar is actually running together the _infinitivo pessoal_ and the _futuro do subjuntivo_.


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## FloMar

Gosh, I'm so impressed that someone can work out my own confusion. I did in fact intend to write bom. A new recent area of confusion for me, however, is the introducton of the subjunctive with *como* (e.g. eu faria o jantar como vc pedisse) instead of *que* and it felt logical to subsitute *que*/ *como* with se. Now on reflection, I would write é bom nos apressarmos (the verb in the infinitive being  apressar-se) = it's good if we (could) hurry (ourselves) up or é bom a gente se apessar. Thanks for all of your responses


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## pfaa09

FloMar said:


> A new recent area of confusion for me, however, is the introducton of the subjunctive with *como* (e.g. eu faria o jantar como vc pedisse) instead of *que* and it felt logical to subsitute *que*/ *como* with se.


3 different situations.
como vc pedisse = the way you wanted / asked
que vc pedisse = The kind of dish
se vc pedisse = If you asked



FloMar said:


> I would write é bom nos apressarmos (the verb in the infinitive being apressar-se) = it's good if we (could) hurry (ourselves) up or é bom a gente se apessar.


é bom nos apressarmos / é bom a gente se apessar = You may use both for an advice.
é bom que nos apressemos / despachemos (se não chegaremos atrasados)
É bom que a gente se apresse / despache.


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## FloMar

pfaa09 said:


> 3 different situations.
> como vc pedisse = the way you wanted / asked
> que vc pedisse = The kind of dish
> se vc pedisse = If you asked
> 
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> é bom nos apressarmos / é bom a gente se apessar = You may use both for an advice.
> é bom que nos apressemos / despachemos (se não chegaremos atrasados)
> É bom que a gente se apresse / despache.





pfaa09 said:


> 3 different situations.
> como vc pedisse = the way you wanted / asked
> que vc pedisse = The kind of dish
> se vc pedisse = If you asked
> 
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> é bom nos apressarmos / é bom a gente se apessar = You may use both for an advice.
> é bom que nos apressemos / despachemos (se não chegaremos atrasados)
> É bom que a gente se apresse / despache.


Very clear. Many thanks


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