# Persian: کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد



## Jamshed Aslam

I was reading Shahname and came across the following:

به نام خداوند جان و خرد کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد

I had two questions: first of all, what does برگذشتن mean? It's not in my dictionary. Secondly, shouldn't it have been کہ از این برتر اندیشہ برنگذرد? Because the meaning is "In the name of the lord of the soul and wisdom, who no thought is higher than."

who = کہ
than = از


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## colognial

Hi, Jamshed Aslam. 

1) برگذشتن means to pass, to surpass.
2) که از این is the correct breakdown. However, in the line of verse you quote, the three words are joined up to ensure that the meter does not suffer. When reciting the line, the reader will do the liaison, i.e. will pronounce the word as "kazeen".


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## Jamshed Aslam

Thank you so much. It was originally بر نمی گذرد but the می was dropped to preserve the meter. Am I correct?


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## James Bates

Jamshed Aslam said:


> I was reading Shahname and came across the following:
> 
> به نام خداوند جان و خرد کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
> 
> I had two questions: first of all, what does برگذشتن mean? It's not in my dictionary. Secondly, shouldn't it have been کہ از این برتر اندیشہ برنگذرد? Because the meaning is "In the name of the lord of the soul and wisdom, who no thought is higher than."
> 
> who = کہ
> than = از



If it meant "who no thought is higher than" it would have been کزو (i.e. کہ از او), not کزین (i.e. کہ از زین).


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## PersoLatin

James Bates said:


> If it meant "who no thought is higher than" it would have been کزو (i.e. کہ از او), not کزین (i.e. کہ از زین).



I believe the meaning is: "In the name of Lord of/"who created man with" soul and wisdom, whose (man's own) thoughts/thinking can not surpass this given wisdom"

So kazin کزین is correct as it refers to the wisdom given by the 'Lord'.


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## fdb

Jamshed Aslam said:


> Thank you so much. It was originally بر نمی گذرد but the می was dropped to preserve the meter. Am I correct?



Actually it is the other way around. In Firdawsī’s time the simple present is formed without any prefix. _mē_ and _hamē_ still mean “always”. Later, in “classical” Persian, _mē_ becomes a generalised prefix for the present tense.


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## James Bates

PersoLatin said:


> I believe the meaning is: "In the name of Lord of/"who created man with" soul and wisdom, whose (man's own) thoughts can not surpass this given wisdom"
> 
> So kazin کزین is correct as it refers to the wisdom given by the 'Lord'.



That makes sense. However, why is the word برتر ("higher") there when it seems to add nothing to the meaning? Wound't this have meant the same thing as what Firdawsi said:

بنام خداوندِ جان و خرد کہ از این خرد اندیشہ برنگذرد
"In the name of the lord of the soul and wisdom, whose wisdom (این خرد) man's thought (اندیشہ) cannot surpass (برنگذرد)."

I'm assuming that اندیشہ is the subject of the verb برنگذرد.


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## PersoLatin

James Bates said:


> why is the word برتر ("higher") there when it seems to add nothing to the meaning?


It does, it is the combination of برتر  and برگذشتن, that means "surpass", برگذشتن is another way of saying گذشتن, of course it is required for correct metering.



James Bates said:


> whose wisdom (این خرد) man's thought (اندیشہ) cannot surpass (برنگذرد)."



The wisdom in question is not the Lord's but the one given to man by the Lord. By all religious accounts, Lord's wisdom can not be compared to man's, as it is immense.


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## James Bates

Oh, I see. Thank you!


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## Stranger_

This line can be read this way too:

به نام خداوند جان و خرد
کزین برتر "اندیشه بَر" نگذرد

For more details, click here.

Edited...


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## James Bates

I don't get it. You're saying it's not part of the verb برگذشتن bargozashtan?


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## Stranger_

از چیزی برگذشتن means to "surpass/transcend/to go beyond" something, like in this line from Saadi:

شبی برنشست از فلک برگذشت
به تمکین و جاه از ملک برگذشت


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## James Bates

I see. Would there be any difference in meaning between the two readings you have suggested?


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## Stranger_

> I don't get it. You're saying it's not part of the verb برگذشتن bargozashtan?


The writer of that article is saying so, not me. But I tend to agree with him, his way of reading the line is correct too.

He says that اندیشه بر is like saying اندیشه را and that both have one meaning. He backed it up with examples and I see them to be very convincing but the thing which I do not agree with him is in saying that the common way (which regards *bar *to be a prefix for the verb گذشتن) of reading the line is wrong. Both are possible and meaningful in my opinion.


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## Stranger_

> I see. Would there be any difference in meaning between the two readings you have suggested?


No. They both give the same meaning.


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## Jamshed Aslam

But that would mean that اندیشہ is not the subject of برنگذرد, even though everybody agrees that it is. After all, the English translation is "thought cannot surpass this (wisdom)", not "this (wisdom) cannot surpass thought".


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## soheil1

Jamshed Aslam said:


> I was reading Shahname and came across the following:
> 
> به نام خداوند جان و خرد کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
> 
> I had two questions: first of all, what does برگذشتن mean? It's not in my dictionary.


Same as گذشتن


> Secondly, shouldn't it have been کہ از این برتر اندیشہ برنگذرد? Because the meaning is "In the name of the lord of the soul and wisdom, who no thought is higher than."
> 
> who = کہ
> than = از


There is something in Persian literature called وزن., literally meaning weight and referring to the rhythm of the poem, OK, it was in the classic literature, prior to 1940s. 
incidentally, که is a relative word not necessarily referring to a person and Muslums are forbidden to liken god to anything. It is considered blasphemy in Islam


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## Stranger_

I am still not sure whether کزین refers to the first line as a whole "به نام خداوند جان و خرد" or only the last word of it "خرد". What do you think?


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## soheil1

ک is که, a relative word.
زین means از این= than this.
َد in نگذرد refers to خرد

All in all, the line reads:
In the name of the god of soul and wisdom
Nothing better than which surpasses wisdom


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## PersoLatin

Stranger_ said:


> .... کزین refers to the first line as a whole "به نام خداوند جان و خرد" or only the last word of it "خرد". What do you think?



I believe this is the answer:



PersoLatin said:


> So kazin کزین is correct as it refers to the wisdom given by the 'Lord'.




There seems to be a repetition of the same answers which is very confusing for anyone who asks questions.


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