# Catalonians, Basques, et al



## Cracker Jack

Tinc una dubte sobre l'actitud dels catalans pel que fa a la qüestió de la seva nacionalitat. La majoria d'ells diria ''Sóc (nom)...vinc de Catalunya, sóc català/na. Sento sempre això quan coneixo algú d'arrel catalana (o sigui amb pares catalans) per primer cop. A penes dirian ''Sóc espanyol/a.''

Per altra banda, em diuen que quan en el estranger, dirian ''Sóc espanyol/a.'' A vegades em fa gracia. És per això que sóc molt cautelós quan parlo amb ells per no ferir els seus sentiments. Voldria saber dels nostres amics catalans si prefereixen que la gens els digui catalans. A ells li fa res si la gens els digui espanyols?

Motes gràcies.

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Me queda una duda sobre la actitud de los catalanes en cuanto al tema de su nacionalidad.  La mayoría de ellos diría ''Soy (nombre)...vengo de Cataluña, soy catalán/a.  Siempre oigo esto cuando conozco alguien de raíz catalana (o sea con padres catalanes) por primera vez. Apenas dirían ''Soy español/a.''

En cambio, me dicen que en el extranjero, dirían ''Soy español/a.  A veces, me hace gracia.  Es por esto que soy muy cauteloso cuando hablo con ellos para no herir sus sentimientos.  Me gustaría saber de nuestros amigos catalanes si prefieren que la gente les llamen catalanes.  ¿A ellos, les importa si la gente les llamen españoles?

Muchas gracias.

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There's one doubt I have that I would like clarified about the attitude of Catalans in terms of the matter of their nationality.  Most of them would say ''I am (name)...I come from Catalonia, I am Catalan.  I often hear this when I get acquainted with someone of Catalan extraction (in other words with both parents Catalans).  They would hardly say ''I am Spanish.''

On the other hand, they tell me that whenever abroad, they would say ''I am Spanish.''  At times, I find this amusing.  Because of this, I proceed cautiously to avoid slighting them. I would like to hear from our Catalan friends if they prefer being called Catalans.  Would they mind if they get called Spanish?

Thanks a lot.


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## ampurdan

Tants caps, tants barrets, Cracker Jack. És molt comú fer enquestes del tipus:

Vostè, com se sent?
A- Només català.
B- Més català que espanyol.
C- Tant català com espanyol.
D- Més espanyol que català.
E- Només espanyol.

És veritat que a vegades som bastant ridículs, però a tot arreu tenen les seves coses, no? La nostra diversitat de sentiments nacionals és una cosa que de vegades ajuda a relativitzar una mica tot tipus de patriotismes i nacionalismes, però també de vegades fa que la gent perdi el temps en discussions desagradables que no duen enlloc, espero que aquesta no en sigui una.

P.D. Una petitíssima correcció: "dubte" és masculí.


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## Chipolata

A lo mejor estoy un poco fuera del tema pero quisiera mencionar que en Quebec tenemos la misma actitud: dificilmente diré que soy canadiense, aún en el extranjero. Mi pasaporte dice Canadá pero me siento quebequense... Los canadienses son los demás... no que no los quiera pero es así!


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## Cracker Jack

Moltes gràcies amp per el teu post que era molt informatiu.  També no savia que dubte fos masculí.  No obstant, els catalans sont molts espanyols també.  Per més que insistiu que sigueu diferents compartireu moltes cosas amb els altres espanyols culturalment.

Per exemple, encara que el pa amb tomàquet sigui únic a Catalunya, el farciment és molt espanyol, o sigui tonyina, pernil, xoriço, embutits.  De fet, he provat pan amb tomàquet amb truita de patates.  Alguns catalans també fent la migdiada que és molt castellàna.  És fa també 12 raïms (12 uvas - no sé si es diu això en català.  Hi ha moltes coses, tradicions, relacionades.

Crec que és tracta realment de sentiments forts d'esser catalans i també és una qüestió de assumpte pressupositari.  Els catalans merèixen més perquè el ingrés cobrat per Catalunya forma gran part del ingrés d'Espanya.

Gracias Chipolata.  Sí, creo que aquí en Catalunya hay una situación paralela que esta pasando en Quebec.


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## Mei

Hola Craker,

Cuando me preguntan siempre digo que soy catalana (porque es lo que siento) pero no me ofende que me llamen española. (Bueno, depende de quién lo diga y el tono con el que lo diga, hay gente para todo). 

Saludos

Mei


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## pickypuck

Cracker Jack said:


> Per exemple, encara que el pa amb tomàquet sigui únic a Catalunya...,


 
This is not unique at all. Here a typical breakfast consists of bread with tomato or bread with tomato and ham


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## natasha2000

pickypuck said:


> This is not unique at all. Here a typical breakfast consists of bread with tomato or bread with tomato and ham


 
¿Untáis el tomaquet en el pan, como lo hacen los catalanes? 

¿No será que te refieres a salmorejo? Si es así, son dos cosas bien distintas...


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## pickypuck

natasha2000 said:


> ¿Untáis el tomaquet en el pan, como lo hacen los catalanes?
> 
> ¿No será que te refieres a salmorejo? Si es así, son dos cosas bien distintas...


 
No, no me refiero al salmorejo... no seré un experto en alta cocina, pero hasta ahí llego  El salmorejo es una cosa más cordobesa.

Por aquí, el pan se refriega con tomate y te lo comes así para desayunar, y si quieres, le pones jamón serrano, si es de un cerdo alimentado con bellota de la dehesa extremeña, mejor ^_^. Es un desayuno muy típico por aquí. 
También se suele refregar el pan con tomate en los bocadillos, porque queda así todo mucho más jugoso y evitas comerte el pan tan seco. Esto último también se hace en Baleares.


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## natasha2000

pickypuck said:


> No, no me refiero al salmorejo... no seré un experto en alta cocina, pero hasta ahí llego  El salmorejo es una cosa más cordobesa.
> 
> Por aquí, el pan se refriega con tomate y te lo comes así para desayunar, y si quieres, le pones jamón serrano, si es de un cerdo alimentado con bellota de la dehesa extremeña, mejor ^_^. Es un desayuno muy típico por aquí.
> También se suele refregar el pan con tomate en los bocadillos, porque queda así todo mucho más jugoso y evitas comerte el pan tan seco. Esto último también se hace en Baleares.


 
Pues, entonces sí que es verdad...
No lo sabía... Aquí se hace exactamente igual. El salmorejo me encanta, también, aunque lo comí en Madriles y como "desayuno andaluz". Me daban una llesca de pan y yo ponía un chorrito de aceite de oliva y luego salmorejo con una cucharadita en el pan... Muy bueno, me encanta.
Gracias por la info.

PS: Baleares se supone que son tierras catalanas, ¿no?


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## pickypuck

natasha2000 said:


> PS: Baleares se supone que son tierras catalanas, ¿no?


 
Bueno, Baleares son tierras baleares. Otra cosa son los sentimientos, los països catalans y demás historias en las que no me meto porque me parecen aburridíííísimas  CrackerJack dijo que era una cosa única en Cataluña y Baleares es una Comunidad Autónoma diferente de Cataluña. Eso es lo que quería decir simplemente.


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## Cracker Jack

pickypuck said:


> This is not unique at all. Here a typical breakfast consists of bread with tomato or bread with tomato and ham


 
Really? I never thought about that.  Here what they do is rub a halved tomato on bread surface, then optionally garlic.  Then pour olive oil and a dash of pepper.  The filling could be anything from tuna, ham and cheese, xoriço or sobrassada.

Muchas gracias Mei y Natasha.


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## natasha2000

Cracker Jack said:


> Really? I never thought about that. Here what they do is rub a halved tomato on bread surface, then optionally garlic. Then pour olive oil and a dash of pepper. The filling could be anything from tuna, ham and cheese, xoriço or sobrassada.
> 
> Muchas gracias Mei y Natasha.


 
A mí me gusta pan de payes tostado, con tomaquet untado, olive oil y ajo, y escalivada. Ufff... Es pa morirse de placer...


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## XIKA

Cracker Jack said:


> Moltes gràcies amp per el teu post que era molt informatiu. També no savia que dubte fos masculí. No obstant, els catalans sont molts espanyols també. Per més que insistiu que sigueu diferents compartireu moltes cosas amb els altres espanyols culturalment.
> 
> Per exemple, encara que el pa amb tomàquet sigui únic a Catalunya, el farciment és molt espanyol, o sigui tonyina, pernil, xoriço, embutits. De fet, he provat pan amb tomàquet amb truita de patates. Alguns catalans també fent la migdiada que és molt castellàna. És fa també 12 raïms (12 uvas - no sé si es diu això en català. Hi ha moltes coses, tradicions, relacionades.
> 
> Crec que és tracta realment de sentiments forts d'esser catalans i també és una qüestió de assumpte pressupositari. Els catalans merèixen més perquè el ingrés cobrat per Catalunya forma gran part del ingrés d'Espanya.
> 
> Gracias Chipolata. Sí, creo que aquí en Catalunya hay una situación paralela que esta pasando en Quebec.


 


En part tens raó, Cracker Jack. Molts catalans negaran que són espanyols senzillament perquè no se'n senten. De tota manera crec que els termes "català" i "espanyol" ja són subjectius de per si. Jo em sento tant catalana com espanyola si vull definir la meva identitat cultural: la Catalunya d'ara és fruit de moltes influències de la resta de l'estat espanyol i l'Espanya d'ara és la suma de totes les influències de Catalunya i d'altres comunitats. Jo ho veig així de simple. 
Un altre tema és ser català o ser espanyol, referint-se a la llengua. En aquest cas jo et diria que sóc tres vegades més catalana que espanyola, pel simple fet que el 97% dels cops que obro la boca ho faig en català (com la majoria de gent que vivim a la Catalunya central).


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## ernest_

MODERATOR EDIT:

The next few posts were taken from another thread and moved here because they were off-topic there.



Fernando said:


> - Ceuta, Melilla, Catalonia and Basque Country populations wants to stay in Spain and that what every polls say, regardless their undoubtful desire of autonomy.



As far as I know, the Basque autonomous parliament -which, like it or not, represents democratically the Basque people- recently passed a law to become virtually independent from Spain. "Freely associated," they said. The Spanish parliament rejected the law, of course. The conservative party didn't even want the law to be discussed in the Spanish parliament.



> They have stood in Spain since 15th century (B. Country in Castille since 12th). As a comparison, Scotland is British since end 16th (royal union) and had the last separation war in 18th.


Catalonia had their own Constitution and full sovereignty until 1714, when the Castillian army occupied the country and abolished our political institutions. But anyway, it doesn't matter at all whether we or the Basques have been in Spain since the 12th century. It is every people's right to be free and to be ruled by themselves and by no one else, and the Spanish Constitution is denying this right to us right now.


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## Fernando

ernest_ said:


> "Freely associated," they said.



In your language does "associated" mean "independent"?

Which party (other than Batasuna) has proposed the outright independence of Spain?

Which poll/referendum do you deal with to say that Basques want to be independent?

Which Basque political figure (from Núñez de Balboa to Unamuno) is the anti-Spanish one?



ernest_ said:


> Catalonia had their own Constitution and full sovereignty until 1714, when the Castillian army occupied the country and abolished our political institutions.



Catalonia was united to Aragon Crown from the almost very beginning of its history. So, it never was fully independent. If Catalonia was so sovereign,  how many wars or peace did Catalonia have wich was not a war or peace for Granada or Galicia?



ernest_ said:


> But anyway, it doesn't matter at all whether we or the Basques have been in Spain since the 12th century.
> 
> Then, why are you posting the aforementioned?
> 
> 
> 
> ernest_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is every people's right to be free and to be ruled by themselves and by no one else,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That leaves you the problem to define what a people is.
> 
> Laus Deo, Catalonians and Basques (along with Extremadurans, Castilians, Galicians, Asturians, Andalucians and other peoples) have freely decided to be governed by the Spanish Government (which has always had Catalan and Basques ministers) with a great autonomy degree.
> 
> Last poll: Only 16% of Catalonians consider themselves "Only Catalan".
> 
> 
> 
> ernest_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> and the Spanish Constitution is denying this right to us right now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Voted by Catalonians and Basques also.
Click to expand...


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## Eloy1988

I'm a Catalan and I love Spain. Actually, I consider that I am more Spanish than Catalan, as Catalonia is just another region of Spain, like Extremadura or Murcia, and Spain is our country.
Many people think like me, so, Invictaspirit, your arguments are groundless.


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## Namakemono

ernest_ said:


> Catalonia had their own Constitution and full sovereignty until 1714, when the Castillian army occupied the country and abolished our political institutions.


 
That means the average Catalan, their parents, and their grandparents have always lived in Spain and are attached to Spanish society and culture.
In my opinion, the fact that some (I repeat, some) Catalans ask for independence claiming they are "victims" of the "Spanish imperialism" is as crazy as if I said "we should all stop speaking Galician, Spanish and Catalan to fight Italian imperialism."


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## Eloy1988

I completely agree with you, Namakemono. Let's teach some foreigners that just a handful of people want independence in Spain.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Eloy1988 said:


> I'm a Catalan and I love Spain. Actually, I consider that I am more Spanish than Catalan, as Catalonia is just another region of Spain, like Extremadura or Murcia, and Spain is our country.



These people don't think so.

http://www.somiserem.org/imatges/cataloniaisnotspain.jpg


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## Fernando

Your link proves:

- Spain is a free country

- You can make an incredibly big "pancarta". I did not know you could make a so big pancarta. Wow.

This link talks about what Catalans think when asked in an anonymate poll (last phrase of the article):

http://www.abc.es/20061205/nacional-politica/solo-ciutadans-salva-castigo_200612050250.html


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## Pedro y La Torre

Fernando said:


> Your link proves:
> 
> - Spain is a free country
> 
> - You can make an incredibly big "pancarta". I did not know you could make a so big pancarta. Wow.



It is quite a large sign  But anyway, I simply posted a link saying many Catalonians had another point of view i.e. they don't see themselves as Spanish. Whether this is the majority view or not is another day's work.

In relation to the Basques, they have a completely different language and culture to Spain and should be given independence if they want it. But of course I highly doubt whether the Spanish establishment (military etc.) would ever allow this.


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## Fernando

Pedro y La Torre said:


> In relation to the Basques, they have a completely different language and culture to Spain



Basque language is indeed completely different from Spanish language. Anyhow, most Basques (nationalists or not) speaks Spanish every day. Basque-speaking native population is around 25% of Basques. Check Wiki or any other source, if doubt arise.

About "culture", large parts of Basque Country (Bilbao as an example) has been united to Castille since 12th century. Unamuno or Pío Baroja (Basques) are highest examples of the Spanish (and obviously Basque) culture.

Of course, Basques have elements of their culture which are specific. As an example, Flamenco is unknown out of Andalusia/S Castille and Extremadura.



Pedro y La Torre said:


> and should be given independence IF they want it.



Note the capitalization.



Pedro y La Torre said:


> But of course I highly doubt whether the Spanish establishment (military etc.) would ever allow this.



The Basques will not allow it, even after 30 years of ETA terror.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Fernando said:


> Basque language is indeed completely different from Spanish language. Anyhow, most Basques (nationalists or not) speaks Spanish every day.



True, but I don't see how they could not. They are after all completely surrounded by Spanish speakers.



Fernando said:


> Basque-speaking native population is around 25% of Basques. Check Wiki or any other source, if doubt arise.



Out of approximately 2,000,000 people living in the entire Basque country 1,033,900 speak it and as a first language: 700,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

It is not surprising that the number of Basque speakers went down under Franco's repressive policies but according to sources it has been making a big comeback in recent years.

I know a recent law was passed in the Basque parliament advocating virutal independence but the Cortes shot it down, as everyone knew they would.



Fernando said:


> About "culture", large parts of Basque Country (Bilbao as an example) has been united to Castille since 12th century. Unamuno or Pío Baroja (Basques) are highest examples of the Spanish (and obviously Basque) culture.
> 
> Of course, Basques have elements of their culture which are specific. As an example, Flamenco is unknown out of Andalusia/S Castille and Extremadura.



Basques are as different to Spaniards in culture and language as Irish people are to English. I don't think anyone can dispute that. Of course there are similarites due to long Spanish rule but in essence they are two very different peoples.





Fernando said:


> Note the capitalization.



I totally agree. But IF they want, would the Spanish establishment agree? I remember a few months there was a big furore about some Spanish general threating to invade Catalonia if some autonomy laws were passed. Hardly very tolerant of different viewpoints now is it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4595172.stm





Fernando said:


> The Basques will not allow it, even after 30 years of ETA terror.



The Basques won't allow themselves to be independent?  Come on now, how do you know that. ETA would not have been formed unless there was real support among the people for Basque independence. I'm not saying it's a majority view by any means, but it obviously is there.


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## Namakemono

Pedro y La Torre said:


> In relation to the Basques, they have a completely different language and culture to Spain and should be given independence if they want it.


 
Their language is unique, but their culture is not. They have belonged to Spain for far too long and most Basques wouldn't accept independency.


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## HUMBERT0

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Basques are as different to Spaniards in culture and language as Irish people are to English. I don't think anyone can dispute that. Of course there are similarites due to long Spanish rule but in essence they are two very different peoples.


From what little I know, the inhabitants of the both regions have being living along side for to much time, at least in historic times. Language wise, Basque influenced Castilian in ways that it didn’t happened with other Iberian Romance languages which had no immediate contact with them, and also vice versa Castilian influence Basque, that shows an early intermingling of cultures if nothing else.
Just to cite an example, it’s no coincidence that Spanish shares the same vowel system as Basque, differencing it self from Latin and other Romance languages.


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## Namakemono

I think the only difference between Spanish and classic Latin vowels is that Spanish no longer makes a distinction between open and closed _e_s and _o_s. Not surprising, considering they're written the same. The soldiers who invaded Hispania probably had the same vowel system we have now.



> The Basques won't allow themselves to be independent?




Correct. They're Spaniards, and they identify themselves with Spain.



> Come on now, how do you know that. ETA would not have been formed unless there was real support among the people for Basque independence. I'm not saying it's a majority view by any means, but it obviously is there.


 
Of course. But I bet communism also has real support amongst Irish people, yet you have a capitalist economy.
Also keep in mind that ETA's wish is not only become independent, but to form some sort of left-only parliament (probably a dictatorship). Anyone in their right mind would know this is absolutely detrimental to the people.


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## natasha2000

Me preguntaba cómo un hilo con el título en catalán, buscandoopiniones sobre los catalanes y su sentimiento de pertenencia a una u otra nación se ha tergiversado en un debate político sobre la ETA, el euskera y los vascos? Veo que hace mucho que ningún moderador haya pasado por aquí...


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## xarruc

I think that the idea of being in or out of Spain is irrelevent for the semiautomonous provinces. WE ARE ALL EUROPE NOW. That is where the power lies and the failiure of (nearly) all europeans to acknowledge that is what is going to sink us all. 

Do you know who your MEP is?
Do you know what parties exist in the European parliament?
Do you to which party your's belongs and what they believe?
Did you vote for your MEP?

The catalism debate is just a political sleight of hand to hide other problems and is bad for Barcelona.

I'm all for cultural preservation, and to some extent language preservation, and there was admittedly a need for a major revival following Franco. It can , however, go too far. The dream that the politicans, intelligensia and press feed the people (which is happily lapped up, and has been lapped up ever since the reneixement) of a great Catalunya that used to rule the med and will do so again if only it can throw off the yoke of Madrid is a fallacy. The issues in Catalunya should be the poor and uncompetitve university system, the growing inflation, the appalling driving of the jovenes (too much theory and not enough practice), the high number of unccupied accomodation (due to over-tenannt friendly laws) and the generally backwards management of the companies (among many others). Municipal corruption and administrative incompetence are far more important than the recent campaigns of wresting airport control from Madrid, passing a statuate that claims "catalonia is a nation", prohibiting bull fighting which is hardly a major thing in BCN anyway, and pressing charges against any snack bar that doesn't publish its menus in both catalan and spanish.

Peronally I would love to see a Europe based on a states model with Catalonia, Provence, South England, Scotland etc all autonomous and responsible to a federal governent - get rid of Chirac, Blair, Zapatero, Prodi and all the other big time crooks running the show....

But that ain't gonna happen. 

In 25 years time Catalanism will have run out of steam and we will wonder what it was all about. We were free then, we are free now, what's changed?


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## Pedro y La Torre

Namakemono said:


> Of course. But I bet communism also has real support amongst Irish people, yet you have a capitalist economy.



No, it dosent. "Real" support neccissitates at least large segment of the population supporting it and according to the last poll conducted by the Universidad del País Vasco, there is that.



> A Euskobarómetro [6] poll (conducted by the Universidad del País Vasco) in the Basque Country in May 2006, found that a significant number of Basques supported some or all of ETA's goals (*33% favored Basque independence, 35% federalism, 26% autonomy, 1% centralism*). While few supported their violent methods (95% agreed that "today in Euskadi it is possible to defend all political aspirations and objectives without the necessity of resorting to violence"), also a wide majority was in favor of political negotiation between ETA and Spain (only 5% opposed them), supporting also grace measures for ETA prisioners (72%), celebration of a referendum of the political status of the Basque Country (73%) and political concesions by Spain (64%).


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## ernest_

The bottom line is that the Spanish Constitution states clearly that even if every single Basque and Catalan citizen supports independence the Spanish army *will attack us* to prevent us from going independent. And that's it. If this is a free country, I am the reincarnation of Tutankhamon.


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## natasha2000

ernest_ said:


> The bottom line is that the Spanish Constitution states clearly that even if every single Basque and Catalan citizen supports independence the Spanish army *will attack us* to prevent us from going independent. And that's it. If this is a free country, I am the reincarnation of Tutankhamon.


Can you quote the article which says this, please? 
It is hard for me to believe that it says exactly this what you wrote. 

On the other hand, if it is true, then you really might be a Tutankhamon, and I Nefertiti...


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## Pedro y La Torre

natasha2000 said:


> Can you quote the article which says this, please?
> It is hard for me to believe that it says exactly this what you wrote.
> 
> On the other hand, if it is true, then you really might be a Tutankhamon, and I Nefertiti...



He's overexaggerating a little, but maybe only a little.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4595172.stm


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## xarruc

They arrested the general who mentioned it. The queen can still dissolve parliament and install herself as a despot. As I am not a freeman, under English law I am compelled to practice archery every sunday on the common.


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## natasha2000

Pedro y La Torre said:


> He's overexaggerating a little, but maybe only a little.
> 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4595172.stm


 
Thank you, Pedro, for the link, but...

This General is NOT representing Spanish constitution. He himself said the words were of his own. If you ask me, he is what in Serbia would say "a lefover" of franqusm. I think that the reaction of Spanish state incarnated in Defence Minister from that time, Jose Bono, clearly states that this is not the official position of Spanish state.

Nevertheless, if such article does exist in Spanish Constitution, I would like to know about it, because I have already has some "unpleasant surprises" whith Spanish legislation, such as, for example, that you can be judged for helping economically ETA as its supporter, if you get EXTORSIONED by ETA. Stupid, isn't it? I thought the state is there to protect you from extorsioners, not to punish you because you were just trying to save your life and the life of your family or your workers...


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## ernest_

natasha2000 said:


> Can you quote the article which says this, please?
> It is hard for me to believe that it says exactly this what you wrote.



Yes, I can.



> Artículo 8​
> Las Fuerzas Armadas, constituidas por el Ejército de Tierra, la Armada y el Ejército del Aire, tienen como misión garantizar la soberanía e independencia de España, *defender su integridad territorial* y el ordenamiento constitucional.​


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## xarruc

I think Spain has come along way since 1982. I can't quite imagine the tanks rolling through the streets tomorrow.


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## Pedro y La Torre

xarruc said:


> I think Spain has come along way since 1982. I can't quite imagine the tanks rolling through the streets tomorrow.



I also think it unlikely but not impossible. I'm sure quite a number in the army would be less than pleased if the Basque Country or Catalunya decided to secede. It's happened in Chile, Argentina, Brazil and even Thailand (in the past few weeks). Not to say it will or is even likely to happen, but it's not unforeseeable.


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## natasha2000

ernest_ said:


> Yes, I can.


 
Thank you. But this is a text that exists in almost all Constitutions. And it can be interpreted in various vays. Besides, it is normal to have such an article, because if, for example, France would pretend to anex a part of Spain, then this article also has its full implementation: *defender su integridad territorial* y el ordenamiento constitucional.
No country in this world would allow such thing easily.

I think that this article does not describe what you said. Maybe the absence of the right to selfdetermination from the Spanish constitution is what you seek...
Besides, after Montengro voted independence from a common state with Serbia not so long ago, I heard more than once that this was the point sought by Catalans and Basques within the Spanish constitution, and which does not exist. The possibility to selfdetermination.


> I think Spain has come along way since 1982. I can't quite imagine the tanks rolling through the streets tomorrow.


I think the same. Besides, each violent crash goes hand in hand with economic crisis. That is what happened in my country. Then, when there is les and less bread, we seek for the guilties and remember our national prides (all stupid things, if you ask me). I have always said that En España se vive demasiado bien como para arriesgar todo eso por los nacionalismos.
Pero, si por lo que sea, España caiga en una crisis económica... No sé que podría pasar.
I say this because all those confrontations I witness here almost on a daily basis, all those nacionalistic outbursts and exagerrations... All of it reminds me too much on something I have alredy seen and experienced. I just hope that it never happens. From the bottom of my heart.


----------



## xarruc

It is academic anyway. The point about the army arose as "evidence" that catalunya and co are not free. When I wrote that they are free, really I meant in terms of individual rights, rather than the idea of the province being "free". Those that want catalunya to be a free, independent country are living in a pipe dream. It hasn't been free in that sense since els Reis Catolics. Since then 'that' catalunya has 'died' and been reborn. Now with Europe there can be no "freedom" in that sense. Even if catalunya seceded from Spain it would still answer to Europe and Europe would never allow a member province to secede.


----------



## ampurdan

> *Section 8*
> 1. *The mission of the Armed Forces*, comprising the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, *is* to guarantee the sovereignty and independence of Spain and *to defend its territorial integrity* and the constitutional order.


 
True, but they are subject to the orders of the democratic Administration, which shall take measures whenever the following section is applicable:



> *Section 155*
> 1. *If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution* *or other laws*, *or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain*, *the Government*, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, *may*, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, *take all measures necessary* to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the above-mentioned general interest.


 
Source.


----------



## natasha2000

xarruc said:


> It is academic anyway. The point about the army arose as "evidence" that catalunya and co are not free. When I wrote that they are free, really I meant in terms of individual rights, rather than the idea of the province being "free". Those that want catalunya to be a free, independent country are living in a pipe dream. It hasn't been free in that sense since els Reis Catolics. Since then 'that' catalunya has 'died' and been reborn. Now with Europe there can be no "freedom" in that sense. Even if catalunya seceded from Spain it would still answer to Europe and Europe would never allow a member province to secede.


 
I agree with you on everything but on one little claim you say: Catalunya lost its freedom in 1714, and not in times of Catholic Kings. Catalunya was under the Spanish crown, BUT... All kings, when they were crowned as kings of Spain, they were also proclaimed as duques of barcelona, and they went to Barcelona to swear that they would respect Catalan laws 
(fueros). Catalonia had its ownlaws (as well as País Vasco), until 11 September, 1714, because they put their money on a wrong royal house - Habsburgos. So, when Borbons won, they took all independence from Catalonia it had until then.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

All I'll say is Ireland was under occupation for 800 years and still won their freedom. India was ruled by the Brits for almost 300 years give or take. It dosen't matter how long you've been under occupation, it depends if your sense of nationality has been extinguished or not. If the Catalans want it enough they will get it. But whether they _really_ want it is another question entirely.


----------



## natasha2000

Thank you, Ampurdan. This IS the article that says what ernest claimed.


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## xarruc

> I just hope that it never happens. From the bottom of my heart.



I will second that.

I have great fear for the future of Europe. We have self-centred politicians and a disinterested public. The politicians give out more and more money to buy votes without a care of where the money comes from. We have an aging population and a medical system that eventually will have to admit that it cannot afford to keep everybody alive into their 90s, The public-private finance initiatives will cripple all our economies. Nobody in power cares about the future. Especially when there are harsh realities to confess.

It will crash. Probably not for many, many years. But sometime, sooner or later, something will snap and we w¡ll become like the USA in the 40s. And thats when all the stupid things to which you refer to will come out.


----------



## ernest_

xarruc said:


> Those that want catalunya to be a free, independent country are living in a pipe dream.



So the black slaves in America who sought to be free were living in a pipe dream too?



> Now with Europe there can be no "freedom" in that sense.


Last time I checked all European countries _were_ free in that sense. All I ask is to have as much freedom as they have.



> Even if catalunya seceded from Spain it would still answer to Europe and Europe would never allow a member province to secede.


Why not?


----------



## natasha2000

ernest_ said:


> Why not?


 
Yes, why not? They allowed Montenegro to secede. Or we are talking here about double standards, again?


----------



## xarruc

I wasn't aware that Montenegro was ever in the European Union.



> Why not?



If they allowed catalonia, to secede from Europe and become an independent state it would have some severe implications on the rest of Europe. First it would severly disrupt transport from France and the rest of Europe to Spain and Portugal. Second, an independent state has the potential to become a tax haven and do things that would flaunt laws in any member state and it would open the floodgates for any Tom Dick and Harry to secede and pick the best bits of European law and screw the rest. Maybe London would secede so it didnt have to subsidise French farmers. Maybe Bilbao would secede so its fishermen could fish where they liked. The EU would dangle every carrot it could find to stop it and if that failed use every stick to bring it back in again.



> So the black slaves in America who sought to be free were living in a pipe dream too?



This is not at all analagous to the current situation.

I repeat the idea of an independent Catalan country is a pipe dream. It can never happen. If europe decides to break up countries into smaller admistrative provinces it will have independnce from Madrid but not from Brussels.



> Last time I checked all European countries _were_ free in that sense. All I ask is to have as much freedom as they have.



Do you think Catalunya with it's 6 million inhabitants and one important city would have an effective voice in the European Parliament? I think it would be great if it did, but for that to happen all the other countries would need to fragment too. I don't see that happening in the next 30 years.


----------



## natasha2000

> I wasn't aware that Montenegro was ever in the European Union.


It is not, but it is in Europe, for your information (no need to be sarcastic, xarruc, really).
I really don't see why it is blessed by EU if it happens out of its borders, and looked bad upon the same thing if it is required inside its borders?

It is not the question that Catalonia or Northern Ireland or Pais Basco separate, it is just that maybe they should have the possibility to decide by themselves if they want to continue in the same country or want to be independant. 
When my contry was falling apart, all Western countries rushed to recognize them as independant countries. And Yugoslavia was independent and constutional country composed of six republics, just as Spain is composed of provinces. I really fail to see why all ex Yugoslav countries have the right to do what is denied to Catalonia, Pais Vasco or Northern Irland.
I am not saying that Catalonia or Pais Vasco or NI would be better or not as independant countries. Maybe if a referendum is made, the results would surprise everyone. But at least they would have the right to decide about their own destiny. And cope with consequences, too.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

xarruc said:


> If they allowed catalonia, to secede from Europe and become an independent state it would have some severe implications on the rest of Europe. First it would severly disrupt transport from France and the rest of Europe to Spain and Portugal. Second, an independent state has the potential to become a tax haven and do things that would flaunt laws in any member state and it would open the floodgates for any Tom Dick and Harry to secede and pick the best bits of European law and screw the rest. Maybe London would secede so it didnt have to subsidise French farmers. Maybe Bilbao would secede so its fishermen could fish where they liked. The EU would dangle every carrot it could find to stop it and if that failed use every stick to bring it back in again.



What!? I don't see how Catalonia seceeding would have any impact whatsoever on European transport links.

Secondly, Catalonia is a defined region in Europe with its own culture and history. If its people wish to suceed the EU cannot legally do anything to stop them. You may be under the impression that the EU is some sort of a super state that can do whatever it wants, well, it can't.

If Catalonia seceded they could obviously choose whether they wished to remain part of the EU or not. If not then they would become like Switzerland or Norway but if so they would have to remain under EU laws which would prevent them setting up tax heavens or letting fisherman fish wherever they wanted.





xarruc said:


> This is not at all analagous to the current situation.
> 
> I repeat the idea of an independent Catalan country is a pipe dream. It can never happen. If europe decides to break up countries into smaller admistrative provinces it will have independnce from Madrid but not from Brussels.



Of course it can happen if its people wish it to. And if it wished to stay outside the EU as a democratic state it could choose that course too.



xarruc said:


> Do you think Catalunya with it's 6 million inhabitants and one important city would have an effective voice in the European Parliament? I think it would be great if it did, but for that to happen all the other countries would need to fragment too. I don't see that happening in the next 30 years.



Ireland has only 5 million inhabitants and does very well for itself. The same is true for other small nations like Luxembourg and Belgium.

I don't see how any other countries need to fragment for it to happen. That's just ridiculous.


----------



## maxiogee

xarruc said:


> Even if catalunya seceded from Spain it would still answer to Europe and Europe would never allow a member province to secede.



I presume you mean that the EU (not the same as "Europe") would not allow a member province to secede 'from the EU' - because I can't see what concern it is of the EU's if the population of Xyzonia decide to declare independence from Abcland and wish to remain in the EU. The EU has no power to intervene in the internal political affairs of a member nation.


The EU has allowed Britain to remain semi-seceded from it in that it has declined to join the Euro-zone. 
The EU has no policy on which country ought to govern Northern Ireland and, were a vote to happen tomorrow in which the majority of electors there voted to join the Republic of Ireland, the EU would simply change a few seating arrangements.
Greenland


----------



## xarruc

Ok I have been quite slack with my definitions regarding Europe/EU

When I say Europe won't allow a member state to secede I mean from the EU. My point is that if Cataluya got its independence from Spain it would be a fairly hollow victory.

Greenland is self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark. It has been, I beieve, since 1979, before the EU as we know it was the EU as we know it. It withdrew from the EC in 1985. As such it is not really analagous to Catalonia breaking away and forming a non-EU state in 2007.

More analagous would be Northern Ireland declaring independence from the UK and from the EU. Something I cant see happening either.


----------



## caballoschica

Now, IF Catalunya seceded, would it want to take with it the other regions of Spain that speak Català? Like Valencia and the Isles Beleares?

I would also say that this situation is more like that of the South wanting to secede from the Union in American history.   They had a different culture, too.  That didn't work out so well for the South, though, did it?


----------



## natasha2000

> If they allowed catalonia, to secede from Europe and become an independent state


 
just a quick note. Catalonia never wanted to secede from Europe, but only from Spain. Why it shouldn't be an independant country within the European Union?


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

xarruc said:


> Ok I have been quite slack with my definitions regarding Europe/EU
> 
> When I say Europe won't allow a member state to secede I mean from the EU. My point is that if Cataluya got its independence from Spain it would be a fairly hollow victory.
> 
> Greenland is self-governing overseas administrative division of Denmark. It has been, I beieve, since 1979, before the EU as we know it was the EU as we know it. It withdrew from the EC in 1985. As such it is not really analagous to Catalonia breaking away and forming a non-EU state in 2007.
> 
> More analagous would be Northern Ireland declaring independence from the UK and from the EU. Something I cant see happening either.



Northern Ireland is divided between to communities who hate each other and who want to be part of different states namely Ireland and the UK. Catalonia is in a completely different situation.

I would compare Catalonia to Austria or Luxembourg. Small countries but ones which are independent and prospering inside the EU. I don't see why Catalonia with their strong economic and tourist resources couldn't do the same if they wanted to.


----------



## invisibleu

natasha2000 said:


> I really fail to see why all ex Yugoslav countries have the right to do what is denied to Catalonia, Pais Vasco or Northern Irland.


What is denied to Northern Ireland?


----------



## xarruc

> What!? I don't see how Catalonia seceeding would have any impact whatsoever on European transport links.



Go to La Jonquera and watch the trucks driving by. If an independent catalonia started putting prohibitive tariffs on vehicles. it would disrupt Spain's interests as the diversion would be quite large. - but thats not what I am getting at. The EU is trying harmonise everything across Europe and this sort of hiccup would be prevented one way or another.


> If its people wish to suceed the EU cannot legally do anything to stop them. You may be under the impression that the EU is some sort of a super state that can do whatever it wants, well, it can't.



You read my point as if I think the tanks are going to roll in and stop them. I don't. If the population was pig-headed enough it could secede, but it would be strongly against their economic interests as I said with the stick/carrot metaphor.

Europe *is* a huge super state that is slowly controlling everything we do. I'm not a big brother conspiracist but bit by bit more things fall under EU legislation. I saw not so long ago that Prodi was going to have soem troble forcing in a law that would break the Italian pharmacist's monopoly on non-prescription medicine. Not long later Zapatero forced through a similar law here, where if I remember rightly the issue was that only a pharmacist (IE pharmacy degree holder) could own a shop that sells medication. I'm just guessing, but I bet there was some European policy behind that coincidence.

The mess in British farming is due not only to the governments contempt and the ministers incompetance but also to the UK's fanatacism with which it carries out EU rulings.




> but if so they would have to remain under EU laws which would prevent them setting up tax heavens or letting fisherman fish wherever they wanted.



So still not that free then. Switzerland too has had a lot of pressure put on it to be more tax-friendly.



> Ireland has only 5 million inhabitants and does very well for itself.



Ireland has done remarkaby well for itself. Its influence is down to having had the fastest growing economy several years running

Just how influential are nations like Luxembourg and Belgium? Which do you think would be more influential out of Spain or Catalunya?

The other countries need to fragment if the balance of power is going to be right. A fragmented Europe would allow catalunya to ally with other provinces that it has common ground with. EG meditereanean coastal provinces could ally over an issue, but perhaps neither Paris, Madrid or Rome would get involved as it is a minority issue to the majority of each country.


----------



## xarruc

Natasha - the EU subject has come around because I made the point that seceding from Spain wouldn't fufil the dream of an independent catalunya as it would still answer to Brussels.


----------



## xarruc

> Now, IF Catalunya seceded, would it want to take with it the other regions of Spain that speak Català? Like Valencia and the Isles Beleares?



As I understand this is the root of the anticatalanism found in Valencia - that Valencians are generally proSpain and although like the culture they share with Catalunya, they don't like the politics and fear that Barcelona wants to set its self up as a self-styled capiltal of the independent Països Catalans


----------



## ampurdan

The EU discussion is interessant enough as an hypothetical scenario, but Xarruc, remind that catalan independentists don't want to quit EU.


----------



## xarruc

> catalan independentists don't want to quit EU



I acknowledge that and for that very reason think that independence from Spain would be a hollow 'victory' for Catalunya, or Pais Vasco.

And that campaigns for independence based for a "free" catalunya or even using radical catalanism (= antiespanyolism) are political prestidigitation designed to conceal ineptitude or lack of real policy in more important areas - housing, economy, education. All big failures of the generalitat in my book.


----------



## ampurdan

Excuse me, Xarruc, but I find your analysis a little simplistic. We have now a three-party Catalan Administration. Only one of these parties, the second most important, claims independence and, although they officially don't state so, they have some anti-Spain attitude. Even this party has left-wing plans in subjects as housing and economy. The main party precisely fights to get rid of an image of extreme nationalism and explicitly wants to focus on social issues, such as all the ones you've mentioned (which are indeed on press headlines). I cannot deny that many times catalanism has been used as a politic weapon, but so has any nationalism in every single country I know. Of course, this is just a humble citizen's political impression.


----------



## natasha2000

invisibleu said:


> What is denied to Northern Ireland?


 
To decide on a referendum if they want to continue as a part of UK or to become a part of Republic of Irland.


----------



## xarruc

I love living in Catalonia and speaking Catalan and doing catalan things. I also enjoy living in Spain, speaking Spanish and doing Spainish things.

I probably have a chip on my shoulder about that fact that many people here (from both sides) seem consider these things mutually exclusive.

I think catalanism is a mainstream movement that was important after Franco to try and right some of the wrongs and restore catalan language and culture to the forefront of catalonia.

To these ends it seems to me a good, meritous movement. What I now consider as catalanism, however, is poltical not cultural. I think it is twisted into an legitimized form of anti-Spain and anti-Foreigner racist protectionsim and unhealthy for the region. The most extreme elements search for entire independence. 

I also think it is abused by the polticians. I think that focusing less on the differences between Spain and Catalunya, and being tuned in to subjects as those I mentioned, rather than catalanism, would benefit the entire population. 

It does seem now, since the latest elections, that attention *has* been diverted to housing. It is unfortunate that the latest policy here is a treatment not a prevention but perhaps this will mark a turn away from statuates and catalanism to economic policies and improvement.


----------



## maxiogee

natasha2000 said:


> To decide on a referendum if they want to continue as a part of UK or to become a part of Republic of Irland.



Learn the facts before making false statements!

From this site
"The Northern Ireland referendum of 1973 was a referendum held in Northern Ireland only on March 8, 1973 on whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or join with the Republic of Ireland to form a United Ireland."

A related referendum in 1998 about the Good Friday Agreement (and related to the Republic's repudiation of its claim to the six counties) was overwhelmingly approved.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

xarruc said:


> Go to La Jonquera and watch the trucks driving by. If an independent catalonia started putting prohibitive tariffs on vehicles. it would disrupt Spain's interests as the diversion would be quite large. - but thats not what I am getting at. The EU is trying harmonise everything across Europe and this sort of hiccup would be prevented one way or another.



Ifs, buts and maybes. I guess this whole discussion could be characterized as such. Look, if Catalunya gained independence there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they would start doing such things. If a new government comes to power tomorrow in the UK or France or indeed Spain for that matter the same thing could happen. Thus, your point really bears no relavence to the issue whether independence is a viable option for Catalunya.




xarruc said:


> You read my point as if I think the tanks are going to roll in and stop them. I don't. If the population was pig-headed enough it could secede, but it would be strongly against their economic interests as I said with the stick/carrot metaphor.



Really? How? Catalunya is one of the richest areas in the EU and has a far bigger economic base than say Austria. Thus I don't see how independence would negatively affect them at all. On the other hand it may very well indeed negatively affect Spain who would lose such resources. Perhaps that is why they're so eager for Catalunya to remain Spanish.



xarruc said:


> Europe *is* a huge super state that is slowly controlling everything we do. I'm not a big brother conspiracist but bit by bit more things fall under EU legislation. I saw not so long ago that Prodi was going to have soem troble forcing in a law that would break the Italian pharmacist's monopoly on non-prescription medicine. Not long later Zapatero forced through a similar law here, where if I remember rightly the issue was that only a pharmacist (IE pharmacy degree holder) could own a shop that sells medication. I'm just guessing, but I bet there was some European policy behind that coincidence.



Europe is an economic trading block of 25 states, nothing more at this present time. Just last year the French and Dutch strongly resisted closer political ties. Besides that, if any nation feels they are being too tightly controlled from Bruxelles, they can leave. Norway and Switzerland haven't done too badly on the outside have they?




xarruc said:


> Still not that free then. Switzerland too has had a lot of pressure put on it to be more tax-friendly.



By who? Switzerland has been one of Europe's principal banking areas for years and as such has always had favourable tax rates. 



xarruc said:


> Ireland has done remarkaby well for itself. Its influence is down to having had the fastest growing economy several years running
> 
> Just how influential are nations like Luxembourg and Belgium? Which do you think would be more influential out of Spain or Catalunya?



Who is more influential Ireland or the UK, France or Hungary, Germany or Austria? Obviously the bigger countries will have more power that's not what its about. The point I'm making to you is small countries like Luxembourg (highest GDP per head in the EU), Austria and Ireland are doing very well for themselves despite being small countries. I don't see why Catalunya could not do the same.



xarruc said:


> The other countries need to fragment if the balance of power is going to be right. A fragmented Europe would allow catalunya to ally with other provinces that it has common ground with. EG meditereanean coastal provinces could ally over an issue, but perhaps neither Paris, Madrid or Rome would get involved as it is a minority issue to the majority of each country.



You speak of this as if its similar to early 20th century diplomacy over who's going to control the shipping lanes to India. If you know how the EU works you'll know each country gets a fair say in matters concerning it, whatever its size. Now if Austria, Luxembourg and many others can do very well for themselves in EU conferences despite being less powerful nations there is absolutely no reason why an independent Catalunya could not do the same. Last time I checked the EU was concerened with prosperity and stability in _all_ its member nations not just the bigger ones.


----------



## xarruc

I think we have our wires crossed.

I think catalunya could secede from Spain without difficulty if all parties amicably agreed.

I do not think Catalonia could secede from Spain *and* the EU without being highly compromised.

I think independence from Spain would negatively effect Barcelona's influence on the rest of Europe and the world as Spain has more clout than 
Catalonia.



> economic trading block of 25 states, nothing more


It is a little more than that. We have al sorts of EU rulings that effect how businesses operate that the member states cannot EASILY get out of. Rules regarding human rights, immigration, fishing, farming, business practice, trade barriers, economic policy, working hours, minimum wage, the list goes on. It is naive to belittle the importance of the EU. The court of justice is overturning laws made in member states. The European constitution was dumped by popular lack of appeal but there is already a working group in progress to  have another shot at it. 2010 I think. I have binned the original article but Private Eye published an account of the convening meeting where it was decided, as I recall it, that having put so much work into hammering out the inter-country treaties, the working group should maintain the body and spirit of the document and work on the wording to make a more acceptable version. Just a trading bloc.

Switzerland has had other treasuries concerned about a lack of banking transparency or some time and there have beeen attempts to work with them to make it less secret to reduce tax evasion.



> I don't see why Catalunya could not do the same.


 Catalunya *has* been doing very well for itself. Like the rest of Spain it has ridden the wave of EU money that flowed there and consequently flourished, then bloomed. It does however seem to be slowing now. I don't see that independence would change that.

There is a difference between prospering and influencing the EU. You can do one without the other. I remain unconvinced that Luxembourg and co are influential within the EU with respect to France, Germany and the UK.


----------



## natasha2000

maxiogee said:


> Learn the facts before making false statements!
> 
> From this site
> "The Northern Ireland referendum of 1973 was a referendum held in Northern Ireland only on March 8, 1973 on whether Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom or join with the Republic of Ireland to form a United Ireland."
> 
> A related referendum in 1998 about the Good Friday Agreement (and related to the Republic's repudiation of its claim to the six counties) was overwhelmingly approved.


 
Ok. I blew it. I apologize. But only for Irland (Catalonia and Pais Vasco never had such referendum, nor they will have it). There WAS a referendum, indeed, but what kind of referendum?
I have a question for you.
Do you think that the result would be the same if there weren't a boycot of the nationalist parties, which resulted in a boycot of the referendum by almost all Roman Catholic population of NI? In this article it says:


> A boycott by the Roman Catholic population meant only 6,463 voted in favour of a united Ireland.


 
So in the end, as far as I am concerned, it was not a real referendum but just a show of quasi democracy. People whose destiny should be decided didn't come out to vote.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

xarruc said:


> I think we have our wires crossed.
> 
> I think catalunya could secede from Spain without difficulty if all parties amicably agreed.
> 
> I do not think Catalonia could secede from Spain *and* the EU without being highly compromised.



Seceding from Spain is one thing. Seceding from the EU is quite another. If  Catalunya were to become independent I cannot see them leaving the EU, it is far  more beneficial inside than out.



			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> I think independence from Spain would negatively effect Barcelona's influence on the rest of Europe and the world as Spain has more clout than
> Catalonia.



I don't buy this. The same argument could be made for almost any country we have seen become independent in the last 100 years. Belgrade wields more influence than Zagreb, London wields more than Dublin etc. While all that may be true, what really matters is if the people want independence and it's economically viable. In Catalunya's case it is certainly not sure that the people want independence but IF they did, they are certainly economically viable enough to make a success of it.



			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> It is a little more than that. We have al sorts of EU rulings that effect how businesses operate that the member states cannot EASILY get out of. Rules regarding human rights, immigration, fishing, farming, business practice, trade barriers, economic policy, working hours, minimum wage, the list goes on.



Every single one of those regulations is embedded into the EU to ensure its equitability as an economic and trading entity, not as a political one. And if member states disagree they can leave. Norway dosen't agree with the EU's fishing restricitions and guess what they've decided to stay out. They aren't doing too bad either.




			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> It is naive to belittle the importance of the EU. The court of justice is overturning laws made in member states. The European constitution was dumped by popular lack of appeal but there is already a working group in progress to  have another shot at it. 2010 I think. I have binned the original article but Private Eye published an account of the convening meeting where it was decided, as I recall it, that having put so much work into hammering out the inter-country treaties, the working group should maintain the body and spirit of the document and work on the wording to make a more acceptable version. Just a trading bloc.



I can't really get into a discussion with you on this as I'm neither informed enough nor can predict the future. All I know at the moment is, the EU is principally an economic entity, one which has brought great benefits to its member states. That may very well change in the future, but at the moment that's the stage we're at.



			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> Switzerland has had other treasuries concerned about a lack of banking transparency or some time and there have beeen attempts to work with them to make it less secret to reduce tax evasion.



Tax evasion has nothing to do with tax rates per se. Of course different states will try and stop illegal activites being perpetrated by their citizens if they can but this would be the case with or without an EU.



			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> Catalunya *has* been doing very well for itself. Like the rest of Spain it has ridden the wave of EU money that flowed there and consequently flourished, then bloomed. It does however seem to be slowing now. I don't see that independence would change that.



Of course its slowing down. As an area gets richer money is diverted to poorer regions to bring them up to EU standard. Thus money is being diverted from regions like Catalunya and Northern Greece to Poland and Hungary. This has very little to do with being a member of a state but more to do with the economic state of a region.



			
				xarruc said:
			
		

> There is a difference between prospering and influencing the EU. You can do one without the other. I remain unconvinced that Luxembourg and co are influential within the EU with respect to France, Germany and the UK.



You must remember "influence" per se is not only built up through sheer size but through making ties and good diplomacy. All the small countries in the EU have been doing quite well on this front in the past 10 years. Besides that which is more important, a good economy or apparent influence. France might have the latter but they certainly haven't done much with it, to a point that their unemployment rate is 8 per cent and upwards. So no, I don't really see lack of influence as a problem.

Besides this I think this has gone a little off point. My basic point is, if the Catalans want independence let them have it! If not, well then that's good too.


----------



## xarruc

> if the Catalans want independence let them have it! If not, well then that's good too.



I think thats fair enough. Only I wish they would shut up about it and concentrate on more important things...


----------



## maxiogee

natasha2000 said:


> Ok. I blew it. I apologize. But only for Irland (Catalonia and Pais Vasco never had such referendum, nor they will have it). There WAS a referendum, indeed, but what kind of referendum?
> I have a question for you.
> Do you think that the result would be the same if there weren't a boycot of the nationalist parties, which resulted in a boycot of the referendum by almost all Roman Catholic population of NI? In this article it says:
> 
> 
> So in the end, as far as I am concerned, it was not a real referendum but just a show of quasi democracy. People whose destiny should be decided didn't come out to vote.



This may be appearing to be drifting off-topic, but as ETA are in a peace-process similar to that which happened in Northern Ireland (and involving the same Catholic priest, Fr Alex Reid CSSR, as honest broker) there are electoral similarities - not everyone who appears to be X-ist actually votes that way when the chips are down!

Two points.
a) Roman Catholic does not necessarily equate to "desiring a united Ireland".
b) Had each and abstaining voter voted for a United Ireland it wouldn't have changed the result. 

The vote for remaining as part of the UK was carried by 57.5% *of the total electorate*. Had there been a 100% turnout of opponents - and assuming that all those who didn't vote would have voted against (and that's a big assumption - because knowing that one's opponents are abstaining will always convince some to stay away) the result couldn't have been more than 42.5% in favour of leaving the UK (and that is not automatically 42.5% in favour of a united Ireland. There's a strong possibility that some would have wanted total independence from both claimant countries.


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## Pedro y La Torre

^^It's a little unfair to compare Northern Ireland to the Basque Country or Catalonia though, as NI is a society divided by two rival factions each wanting to be part of a different country. The Basque Country and Cataluyna, on the other hand, are fairly homogeneous.


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## maxiogee

Pedro y La Torre said:


> ^^It's a little unfair to compare Northern Ireland to the Basque Country or Catalonia though, as NI is a society divided by two rival factions each wanting to be part of a different country. The Basque Country and Cataluyna, on the other hand, are fairly homogeneous.



I'm not comparing. 
It wasn't I who brought N. Ireland into the discussion.

But, surely there are those in both areas who have opposing views on separation? You're not trying to say that 100% of the electors in the Basque country, or in Catalonia, want independence - or are you?


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## natasha2000

Pedro y La Torre said:


> ^^It's a little unfair to compare Northern Ireland to the Basque Country or Catalonia though, as NI is a society divided by two rival factions each wanting to be part of a different country. The Basque Country and Cataluyna, on the other hand, are fairly homogeneous.


 
Wel this comparison maybe is not so unfair. In both Basque Country and Catalunya there is also a significant number of people who are pro-Spain. There are a lot of immigrants from other parts of Spain both in Catalunya and in Basque Country, who prefer staying within Spain, and feel more Spanish than Basque/Catalan. 

Anyway, I think this discusion went too far with "IFs"... and I feel that partially, I am to blame for it. . Reality is completely defferent, and as far as I know (from cnversations I had with Catalans here), the majority of Catalans wouldn't like to be independant, they would only like to be treated with more fairness and respect in the Spanish community. Most of them feel hurt by what some Spaniards say and think, because it simply is not the truth. That's all.


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## Pedro y La Torre

maxiogee said:


> I'm not comparing.
> It wasn't I who brought N. Ireland into the discussion.
> 
> But, surely there are those in both areas who have opposing views on separation? You're not trying to say that 100% of the electors in the Basque country, or in Catalonia, want independence - or are you?



Sorry, maybe I didn't use the correct terminology. Northern Ireland is divided principally between two rival "peoples", the vast majority of which either want to stay with the UK or join up with the republic. Politics in NI is essentially decided on religious lines not on whats best for the country as a whole. The Basque country and Catalunya on the other hand are not in this ethnic and religious situation, thus I think bringing NI into the discussion (whoever did ) is a little unfair.


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