# Croatian: Pesma and pjesma



## MPA

What is the difference between the words pesma and pjesma? I know that that two words mean "song".


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## MPA

I can not edit my post, so, I wrote Croatian wrong. I am sorry for this.


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## Duya

Pesma is ekavian (Serbian/Eastern), while pjesma is ijekavian (Croatian/Bosnian/Western) variant of the same word. Pronunciation of old Slavic vowel _jat_ systemically differs between Serbian and Croatian, as well as between other Slavic languages. Very roughly generalizing, for example, Czech, Russian and Croatian have _je/ye_ (e with palatalization of preceding vowel), Serbian, Slovenian and Macedonian have _e_, and Bulgarian _ya_.


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## DenisBiH

Duya said:


> Pesma is ekavian (Serbian/Eastern), while pjesma is ijekavian (Croatian/Bosnian/Western) variant of the same word.





I know one has to simplify these things a bit for foreigners Duya, but I think this is an oversimplification. For the OP, ijekavian Serbian exists as well and is the standard variant used by Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Montenegro. And then there's also standard Montenegrin which is also ijekavian. Basically, in the BCSM area, standard Serbian of Serbia is ekavian, other standards are ijekavian.


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## Duya

If you take my adjectives as geographic rather than ethnic (or sociolinguistic) denominations, then the simplification works much better, doesn't it?


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## Vanja

And what dialect do Canadian Serbs speak?  Or when you get to the North Pole?


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## aprendiendo argento

_Pesma _is also Kajkavian Croatian, but _popevka _is much more common and is likely to be used instead.


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## MPA

Ok, all this -kavian words are new to me... But I understand this point of jat evolution.

Thank you.


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## Gnoj

*e*kavian: p*e*sma, ml*e*ko, l*e*po, l*e*pota, vr*e*me (Serbia)
*ije*kavian: p*je*sma, ml*ije*ko, l*ije*po, l*je*pota, vr*ije*me (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and most of Croatia)
*i*kavian: p*i*sma, ml*i*ko, l*i*po, l*i*pota, vr*i*me (part of Croatia)

*kaj*kavian, *cha*kavian, *shto*kavian and *shta*kavian (kajkavski, čakavski, štokavski i štakavski) are subgroups and they are named after their respective dialect forms for the word "what": *kaj*, *ča*, *što* and *šta* (_što_ is standard in Croatian, _šta_ is standard in the other BCS standards).

The *-ka* part (ie kaj*ka*vski) is just a verb sufix - if one is speaking kajkavian, then they are kaj-*ing* (kaj*ka*), if they are speaking shtokavian, then they are što-*ing *(što*ka*). And the last part *-vski *is a common Slavic sufix for what *-ic*, *-ian* and *-ish* are in English (German*ic*, Croat*ian*, Engl*ish*).

I hope I explained well, sorry for my weak linguistic terminology.


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## Vanja

Gnoj said:


> *e*kavian: p*e*sma, ml*e*ko, l*e*po, l*e*pota, vr*e*me (Serbia)
> *ije*kavian: p*je*sma, ml*ije*ko, l*ije*po, l*je*pota, vr*ije*me (Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and most of Croatia) *and in some parts of Serbia*
> *i*kavian: p*i*sma, ml*i*ko, l*i*po, l*i*pota, vr*i*me (part of Croatia)





> Ijekavica nije pokazatelj nacionalnog identiteta jer je zajednička svim nacijama kojima je do jugoslovenskog rata standardni jezik bio srpskohrvatski: srpskoj, hrvatskoj i bošnjačkoj/muslimanskoj.
> 
> To narěčje je, suprotno popularnom mišljenju, i autentično srpsko standardno narečje. Ijekavski se u narodu živo govori u ovim opštinama u Srbiji: Prepolje, Priboj, Nova Varoš, Senica, Tutin, Novi Pazar, Ivanjica, Arilje, Čajetina, Užice, Bajina Bašta, Koserić, Požega, Lučani, Čačak, a mestimično i u opštinama – Kraljevo, Gornji Milanovac, Valjevo, Loznica, Ljubovija, Mali Zvornik, Medveđa, Bojnik, Prokuplje, Kuršumlija, Kladovo, kao i u mnogim opštinama u obema pokrajinama. Ijekavica je i prvo književno narečje modernog srpskog jezika i, ako ni zbog čega drugog, rođeni ekavci imaju motiv da je nauče zbog svoje književne tradicije.






> Pored ijekavskog narěčja, postoji i JEKAVSKO koje danas nema ortografiju (pravopis), ali većina štokavaca na prostoru današnje Hrvatske govori JEKAVSKI, štaviše, paradoksno, JEKAVSKI u Hrvatskoj danas predstavlja ortoepiju (pravogovor): piše se – lijepo bijelo mlijeko, a čita – ljepo bjelo mljeko (sa dugim e); piše se: povijest u pripovijetkama, a čita povjest u pripovjetkama (s kratkim e).



http://govori.tripod.com/ijekavski.htm


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## Duya

Vanja said:


> Pored ijekavskog narěčja, postoji i JEKAVSKO koje danas nema ortografiju (pravopis), ali većina štokavaca na prostoru današnje Hrvatske govori JEKAVSKI



Bullshit. 

Pardon my French.


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## Vanja

Duya said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Pardon my French.


Then complain to the author, monsieur.


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## Duya

I can't stop people writing bullshit all over _teh internets_ (that's its inherent property), but at least I can object when people proliferate it to the places I visit.


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## Vanja

In my case, I don't bother to stop people using such edifying comments in bad French at the places I'm visiting.


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