# Croatian (BCS): a joj, baš mi ga je žao



## pallina89

Hi guys, I found this sentence on a Croatian (I think) blog.
A girl said:
A joj, baš mi ga žao. 
I don't understand the meaning, by the way.
I hope that someone can help me. 
Hvala!!


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## DenisBiH

pallina89 said:


> A joj, baš mi ga (je) žao.




_Oh dear, I feel so sorry for him._ (it could be both neutral and sarcastic)

_Joj_ is an exclamation, you can read more about it here and here.


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## Duya

...and _mi ga je žao_ is one of our "upside-down" constructions, with the experiencer in dative, linked by copula with an adverb 

start from:

_Meni je žao. Meni je teško. Meni je lako. Meni je drago._

then reverse the order:

_Žao mi je. Drago mi je_. etc.

now, insert a patient to boot (you cannot do that with _teško/lako/drago_ though):

_Žao mi ga je._


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## Daniel.N

pallina89 said:


> Hi guys, I found this sentence on a Croatian (I think) blog.
> A girl said:
> A joj, baš mi ga žao.
> I don't understand the meaning, by the way.
> I hope that someone can help me.
> Hvala!!



There are many sentences using such constructs. Normally, it's impersonal (third person, singular, neuter):

Bilo mi ga je žao. Bilo... je... = neuter, 3rd person, singular

Similar expressions are (experiencer in dative!):

*Hladno mi je* = I feel cold
*Vruće mi je* = I feel hot
*Užasno mi je* = I feel terrible
*Dosadno mi je* = "I feel bored" = I'm bored
*Žao mi je* = I feel pity = I'm sorry

With *žao*, one can use additional object in genitive:

Žao mi *ga* je. I'm sorry for him.
Žao mi je *Ane*. I'm sorry for Ana.

Baš means "really" (in this instance) and the writer dropped _je_.

Croatian uses dative meaning "feel" also in "passive-involuntary" constructs like:

*Spava mi se* = I feel like sleeping.
*Spavalo mi se* = I felt like sleeping. spavalo = neuter, singular...


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## el_tigre

Daniel.N said:


> *Spava mi se* = I feel like sleeping.
> *Spavalo mi se* = I felt like sleeping. spavalo = neuter, singular...



In fact:
*Spava mi se* =I am sleepy
*Spavalo mi se* =I was sleepy


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## Daniel.N

el_tigre said:


> In fact:
> *Spava mi se* =I am sleepy
> *Spavalo mi se* =I was sleepy



For this verb maybe, but what about:

*Pije mi se.
Pleše mi se.*
*Kašlje mi se.*

These constructs are known as "involuntary state", see e.g. http://www.indiana.edu/~sls2006/Abstracts/IlicSLS.doc

Only because there's an English word _sleepy_ the sentence could be translated like that; but there's no _drinky_.

The deal is that one does not want to do something, it's a thing that someone experiences, a feeling that comes "on its own".

The closest equivalent in English is _I feel like..._


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## Duya

Daniel.N said:


> For this verb maybe, but what about:
> 
> *Pije mi se.
> Pleše mi se.*
> *Kašlje mi se.*



<euphemistic>
Or *fućka mi se*?  
</euphemistic>


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## phosphore

Daniel.N said:


> The closest equivalent in English is _I feel like..._


 
I agree.

But I think we should treat separately sentences with

*a) an impersonal reflexive verb in the predicate*

Spavalo mu se. "He felt like sleeping."
Ide im se u bioskop. "They felt like going to the movies."
Pije mi se. "I feel like drinking."

If it receives an object, it acts as the grammatical subject and the construction becomes personal: 

Pilo mi se. "I felt like drinking."
Pio mi se neki koktel. "I felt like drinking a coctail."

*b) an adverb in the predicate*

Hladno nam je. "We're cold."
Dosadno joj je. "She's bored."
Žao mi je. "I'm sorry."

If it receives an object, it remains impersonal:

Bilo mi je žao. "I was sorry."
Bilo mi je žao deteta. "I was sorry for the child."

*c) a noun in the predicate*

Muka mi je. "I feel nausea."
Vrućina im je. "I'm hot."
Strah me je. "I'm afraid."

If it receives an object, it remains impersonal: 

Bilo me je strah. "I was afraid."
Bilo me je strah da neće doći. "I was afraid he would't come."

Constructions with an adverb or a noun in the predicate may lose the copula in the present tense, especially when there is an object in the sentence, or the auxiliary verb in the perfect tense. In this form, the construction is not used to make a formal declaration such as _I'm sorry_, but it's very much used to express oneself more emotionally.

Žao mi ga. "I feel sorry for him."
Bilo mi žao. "I felt sorry."
Bilo mi žao deteta. "I felt sorry for the child."

We can see that the word order in the present tense is different to that in other tenses. I'd say, however, that the neutral word order is the same in all tenses and the same as in other constructions, of the type _Jovana je učiteljica_ "Jovana is a teacher", where the word order is subject-copula-predicative, or _Jovana je udarila Marka_ "Jovana hit Marko", where the word order is subject-verb-object. Thus I'd say that here the neutral word order is semantical subject-copula-predicative. The reason why it doesn't seem to be that way in actual sentences is that the present copula is normally enclitic and the semantical subject is most often expressed with an enclitic form of a personal pronoun, and enclitics always appear on the surface in a strict order in respect to each other behind the first accented word of the sentence. Thus, _*Mi je žao_ is rendered as _Žao mi je_, but you can see what I'm talking about if you consider _Jeste mi žao_, _Meni je žao_ and _Meni jeste žao_. *_Mi je žao ga _is rendered as _Žao mi ga je_, but consider _Meni je žao Marka_. For that reason, if you insert another word, such as the intensifying word _baš_ at the beginning of the sentence, it becomes _Baš mi ga je žao_, and if you leave out the copula it becomes _Baš mi ga žao_.


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## Bruno 1234

*a) an impersonal reflexive verb in the predicate

Spavalo mu se. "He felt like sleeping."
Ide im se u bioskop. "They felt like going to the movies."
Pije mi se. "I feel like drinking."

If it receives an object, it acts as the grammatical subject and the construction becomes personal: 

Pilo mi se. "I felt like drinking."
Pio mi se neki koktel. "I felt like drinking a coctail."




*_*Phosphore*_*: 

three questions about your commentaries.


*_*1.  If I say these last sentences in present, would it be any difference (with/without object)?

Pijem mi se / Pijem mi se neki koktel 

2. If the object is indeterminate (GEN) , the construction I propose, is it correct? 

Pijem mi se piva i jedem mi se suha kobasica. 
Pilo mi se piva i jelo mi se suha kobasica.
Pi*_ću mi se piva posle fudbalske utaknice _*

3. These expessions are equivalent or not:

*_želja_* mi je jesti pala*__činka  - volja mi je jesti pala_činka -_  Jedem mi se palačinka?*


Thanks for your patience but, as you can see with my posts, this forum is much more professional and direct than most of so-called "grammars for foreigners" (from both sides of the borders)!





*_


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## Duya

You have a mixed bag in there.



Bruno 1234 said:


> Pijem mi se / Pijem mi se neki koktel



Grammatical subject here is _koktel_, not _I_. So you cannot put the verb in first person. Instead, you must use 3rd person:

_*Pije* mi se neki koktel._

The verb generally agrees with the subject (_koktel_ or _suhe kobasice_), and you can see the gender difference in the perfect. So we have:

_Pije mi se pivo i jedu mi se suhe kobasice._
_Pilo mi se pivo i jele su mi se suhe kobasice._ 
_Piće mi se pivo posle fudbalske utakmice._ 

*However*, with material (_gradivne_) nouns, there is an alternative. Instead of nominative, you can put it in genitive, but then the subject becomes the null pronoun (impersonal), which requires the verb to go in 3rd person neutral. The difference in verb is more obvious in perfect (because it is gender-sensitive):

_Pije mi se piv*a* i jede mi se suh*ih* kobasic*a*._
_Pilo mi se piva i jel*o* mi se suh*ih* kobasic*a*._ 
_Piće mi se piv*a* posle fudbalske utakmice._ 

Since _koktel_ is not really gradivan, *_Pije mi se koktel*a*_ does not work, or sounds really odd. Complicated, I know; so I advise you to use only the personal form, which works universally.



Bruno 1234 said:


> 3. These expessions are equivalent or not:
> 
> [/I]Želja mi je jesti palačinke  - Volja mi je jesti pala[/I][/SIZE]činke - Jedem mi se palačinka?*
> *


*

Yes, with cases fixed. However, 2) is not natural -- we don't really use "volja mi je". Maybe if you were a King...*


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## Bruno 1234

Wow! You're right: I was completely lost! (dative constructions are so "innatural" to me that I'm always confused with them...)

Thanks.


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## Brainiac

Pije mi se piv*o*. Hteo bih *jedno pivo*. 
(I don't drink beer, but when say PIVO, you mean - I want a bottle/can of beer. Or more )
With "piva":
Voleo bih sada *malo piva* za kraj. Hoće (li) još neko?


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## Santanawinds

Duya said:


> ...and _mi ga je žao_ is one of our "upside-down" constructions, with the experiencer in dative, linked by copula with an adverb
> 
> start from:
> 
> _Meni je žao. Meni je teško. Meni je lako. Meni je drago._
> 
> then reverse the order:
> 
> _Žao mi je. Drago mi je_. etc.
> 
> now, insert a patient to boot (you cannot do that with _teško/lako/drago_ though):
> 
> _Žao mi ga je._




Žao mi je = I am sorry for that
Drago mi je = I am glad 

These two expressions often get me thinking when I find them in a text that I'm translating, because it's as if their English equivalents just don't sound as good.

Also, expressing condolencses often confuse me, but that's for a new thread.


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