# Français de souche



## dikiz

There was a discussion in which the meaning is explained...but no equivalent was suggested.
How do you translate "Français de souche" ?

Many thanks!


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## wildan1

I would say _native-born Frenchman_ (not sure that would be "pure" enough a translation for LePen though!)


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## dikiz

yes, because your answer sounds to me like you refer to people who _were __born _in France, and not people who _have only_ french origins (not discussing if it's possible though). Am I wrong?


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## wildan1

dikiz said:


> yes, because your answer sounds to me like you refers to people who _were __born _in France, and not people who _have only_ french origins (not discussing if it's possible though). Am I wrong?


 
You are right, dikiz. _Ethnically French_? But that refers to the roots but not the current nationality (you could be of French ethnicity but be an emigrant to some other country).

This is also a politically loaded term and its interpretation by foreigners will be different based on their own filters about ethnicity and nationality.

Let's see if others have some other suggestions

PS: When I visited Scotland once, a Scot told me (with a straight face) that his parents had "pure Scottish blood coursing through their veins," and therefore I could trust his explanation of the culture there. Not sure what the context of your translation is, but there's one possibility!


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## dikiz

wildan1 said:


> But that refers to the roots but not the current nationality



I believe that's the correct meaning. Only french ancestors. That's why the expression is so controversial, it assumes that a "_homo-frenchus_" gender exists.

edit/ don't forget that "souche", stump (or the "roots"), is also the same image used for familly trees


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## Trisia

Or, you could be nasty and say 'purebred Frenchie' 

There was another cool word (BE): pukka (authentic, genuine)
Or, in Australian slang, 'dinky di' Frenchman (genuine, the real thing)


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## david314

Perhaps:  From *French stock*


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## Moon Palace

david314 said:


> Perhaps:  From *French stock*


That one gets my vote , it is the nearest to what is meant by this dreadful phrase that has been coined recently.


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## wildan1

Moon Palace said:


> That one gets my vote , it is the nearest to what is meant by this dreadful phrase that has been coined recently.


 
Well that would be understandable, but what _is_ French "stock"? Does it mean Gallic, Latin, Christian, or what? 

If you are Basque or Alsatian or Breton or Corsican, does that represent a different "stock"? How about if your family came from Nice?

(  Very confusing!)


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## timpeac

"French through-and-through", perhaps?


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## Moon Palace

wildan1 said:


> Well that would be understandable, but what _is_ French "stock"? Does it mean Gallic, Latin, Christian, or what?
> 
> If you are Basque or Alsatian or Breton or Corsican, does that represent a different "stock"? How about if your family came from Nice?
> 
> (  Very confusing!)



French stock would make sense simply because it means your ancestors were French, but it does not go back too far in history, luckily enough. Besides, there is no French ethnic group, so that it leaves it at your parents and two generations before them.


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## wildan1

Moon Palace said:


> French stock would make sense simply because it means your ancestors were French, but it does not go back too far in history, luckily enough. Besides, there is no French ethnic group, so that it leaves it at your parents and two generations before them. (which is already too much from my viewpoint.)


 
OK, so let's be factual (this is an Anglo-Saxon approach I suppose). If that is the legal explanation, then you would be _third-generation (or more) French-born._

In the U.S. we have a group called "Daughters of the Revolution" who are people who go to great lengths to prove that they are descended from English stock that arrived in America before the revolution of 1776. And make sure you know they are "D.A.R."--it bolsters their fragile egos, I suppose, to claim this.


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## dikiz

Ok I'll go for "french stock", but how do you use it then?
French stock people
People from French stock
...
In fact that expression is quite recent and mainly used by the media. It can hardly been heard in a conversation, but similarly to the Scot mentioned by wildan1, I believe it's not that rare to hear someone stating his origins in Europe. A friend of mine told me he's "a true Dane", my girlfriend she's "100% Italian"...


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## zazap

My suggestion: third generation French citizen.


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## Kelly B

dikiz said:


> Ok I'll go for "french stock", but how do you use it then?
> French stock people
> People from French stock
> [...]


This will be easier to answer if you give us the sentence you'd like to write, but I think I'd say "he comes from [good] French stock."


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## Tresley

Hello Dikiz,

The expression 'Français de souche' is very difficult to translate into English. We only have expressions such as 'French born and bred' and 'French through and through'. The former means that the person was born in France and brought up in France as a French person, the latter means that all the person's ancestors are French.

You have to know the background of the person to be able to confidently translate into English. E.g. 'He is a third generation Frenchman'.

When I have no real context to fall back on, then I translate the expression as 'French born and bred', although it's meaning is deeper than this as both parents are usually also 'born and bred' in France.

I hope this helps.


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## Maped40

When discussing immigration issues wouldn't you use the phrase "ethnically French" (or ethnically British, German or whatever)?


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## Moon Palace

Maped40 said:


> When discussing immigration issues wouldn't you use the phrase "ethnically French" (or ethnically British, German or whatever)?


I don't think you can, because the French are not an ethnicity.


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## Maped40

Sure, but those who use the phrase "Français de souche" believe they are!


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## Moon Palace

Not exactly: they don't refer to the concept of ethnicity, they refer to their roots as being genuinely French. But they don't imply they belong to a different _ethnicity _from the Germans, the Irish...


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## Maped40

OK, but leaving aside the concept of ethnicity, what about the use of the phrase "ethnic Frenchman" or "ethnic Briton" etc. as opposed to immigrant?


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## Moon Palace

As far as I know, this does not make sense precisely because it refers to the concept of ethnicity.


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## Arrius

I think* a Frenchman born and bred* would fit the case.


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## Maped40

It would in some contexts but if you take the phrase literally... the French citizens (for instance) "of immigrant background" to whom those who use the phrase "français de souche" oppose themselves, were generally "born and bred" in France too, and their ancestors may have immigrated several generations back...


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## Squiggle

Wow, what an interesting thread!

My vote goes to *French born and bred* because I always took the 'bred' part to mean 'bred from French stock' (like a throroughbred horse) rather than bred as in brought up. Maybe I have always been wrong but English born and bred certainly implies several generations of English blood.


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## Barns

"English/French born and bred" to me would only refer to the time since you were born and your upbringing in England/France. To me, it would not include past generations in a literal sense, although it could be implied figuratively. Whereas, bringing in the blood idea, in any way, would automatically refer to past generations.

Born, obviously, refers to where you were born and bred only refers to where you were born and where you were brought up although it would imply that at least your parents were English/French but not necessarily that previous generations were. However, such nuances are maybe not so important in such a case.


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## DaiSmallcoal

""he comes from [good] French stock."

AGREE ,                   and it DOESN'T (have to) carry any racist implications. 

In the local newspapers you will often see  e.g 
 "She comes from good farming stock, her family owned farms across mid-Wales"


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## Chimel

To me, the best suggestion is Barns' "full-blooded". Other suggestions are perhaps relevant too, but I don't think you can use them in any context with the required flexibility.

For instance, if someone wants to say "Dans ce quartier, les Français de souche sont une minorité" (which is, as we all know, is a highly questionable statement), saying "those who come from good French stock are a minority" is far more clumsy, I think, than "full-blooded Frenchmen".


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## Char.

[...] I think you could translate français de souche as "native French" or "fully French"


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## Maped40

British National Party supporters use the term "indigenous British" as opposed to the "non-white" population, so maybe "français de souche" would simply be "indigenous French".


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## Moon Palace

Maped40 said:


> British National Party supporters use the term "indigenous British" as opposed to the "non-white" population, so maybe "français de souche" would simply be "indigenous French".


Although I don't particularly like the reference, I reckon this suggestion is horrendously perfect to convey the same haughtiness as _français de souche. _


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## linguistidor

Hi Everyone,

I am writing as essay about multiculturalism in France and was wondering how to say French people not from immigrant backgrounds. 

Am I correct in thinking that _*Français de souche *_has negative connotations? 

Can anyone recommend a way of getting around this?

Thanks in advance


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## Kalu17

Hi,

I don't think "Français de souche"  has negative connotations it just refers to anyone that has only french ancestors.


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## snarkhunter

Hello,

It's not that "Français de souche " actually has any negative connations _per se_, it's more that this expression is most often used by political parties or people who really mean to imply there are several levels of "being French", and that people should be treated 'accordingly'. This did not use to be the case many years ago, though, but using such a way of _differenciating_ people has always been on the dangerous edge.


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## sylber

Hi, if you don't want to use 'de souche', then you'll probably have to say something like 'non issus de l'immigration' which is not particularly elegant and has the same potential connotations. I'd keep 'de souche'.


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## JeanDeSponde

_Français de souche_ refers to _recent_ immigration in any case - though nobody will tell for sure what "recent" means...!
I agree with Snarkhunter: _Français de souche_ is mainly used with reference to (that is, by or against) right extremism where the modern concept was born.
Same as _Français de France_.
The first Google links with "Français de souche" are explicit enough to show that the concept is, uh, debated.
Opt for something longer, though more neutral: _Français non issus d'une immigration récente_.
Side note:
The French Wiki has an article for _Français de souche_, which looks rather neutral.
The _discussion_ part of the article is much more informative: clearly there is a fight against those claiming that the concept has no meaning (and the article should then be removed), and those claiming that denying the concept of _Français de souche_ is as stupid as denying that of _human races..._


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## Micia93

JeanDeSponde said:


> Same as _Français de France_.



pas tout-à-fait la même chose Jean
on voit ça parfois sur le forum, pour marquer la différence entre les pays francophones et je trouve que c'est moins choquant


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## JeanDeSponde

Micia93 said:


> pas tout-à-fait la même chose Jean
> on voit ça parfois sur le forum, pour marquer la différence entre les pays francophones et je trouve que c'est moins choquant


Oui bien sûr ! Je parlais du contexte immigration / Français de souche, où _Français de France_ est (parfois, mais moins souvent) utilisé comme _Français de souche_.


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## jbelmont

Born and bred in California, and having lived all over the United States of American for 75 years (and counting), I know racism when I see it, and so I know EXACTLY what Français de souche means.  It means "real Frenchman", plain and simple ... that is, just exactly what "real American" means in the mouth of a "real American" ... as when he says, "That guy ain't no real American".  It has absolutely nothing to do with who your ancesters were, it has do only with being a monolingual English speaker who seeks to assert privilege over somebody who is at least bilingual with English as his non-native tongue. That would include USA-born latinos who may not speak more than a phrase or two of English.  Français de souche is a (coded) racist term; it could mean nothing beyond a wish to segregate somebody else. France has a long history of this, nearly as long as ours.


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## jbelmont

[QUOTE="JeanDeSponde, post: 11703600, member: 107755"
The first Google links with "Français de souche" are explicit enough to show that the concept is, uh, debated.
Opt for something longer, though more neutral: _Français non issus d'une immigration récente_.[/QUOTE]

"Opt for something longer" means "don't use a racist word", because that is what français de souche is, a racist word, and there is no translation for a racist code. So if you don't want to be racist, why bother to translate "français de souche" in the first place? Rather, simply note in your translation that this is an untranslatable racist term roughly equivalent to the American's "real American" as spoken, always, in the negative: He ain't a real American..


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## mancunienne girl

My vote goes to "of French stock" or "native Frenchman" as it sounds as if the heritage of the person goes further back. "French born and bred" could be someone born in France and brought up in the "French" way of life. "English born and bred" is the same. However, I don't think there are the same ethnic connotations. In GB we categorise people by nationality and race when filling in official forms, not for any racist reason, rather to ensure diversity of representation in the workplace etc....


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