# by retirement age, by the time they are forty



## HallePuppy

So how do you say it in Spanish?  As in "One out of a hundred will develop it (Parkinson's) by retirement age, and half of those will develop it by the time they are forty."

Seria "...para la edad de jubilacion...para la edad de cuarenta..."  ???

Prepositions are hard!

Thanks in advance.


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## chamyto

It's not bad. I would say:

Para cuando les llegue la jubilación, para cuando cumplan cuarenta años.

Regards.


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## HallePuppy

Many thanks!


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## juan2937

HallePuppy said:


> So how do you say it in Spanish?  As in "One out of a hundred will develop it (Parkinson's) by retirement age, and half of those will develop it by the time they are forty."
> Seria "...para la edad de jubilacion...para la edad de cuarenta..."  ???
> Prepositions are hard!
> Thanks in advance.


*
<<<One out of a hundred will develop it (Parkinson's) by retirement age,  and half of those will develop it by the time they are forty."*

*Uno de cada cien personas desarrollará la enfermedad de Parkinson cuando se retiren y la mitad al llegar a los cuarenta.*
Seria "...para la edad de jubilacion...para la edad de cuarenta..."  ???


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## HallePuppy

Thanks to all!


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## inib

juan2937 said:


> *Uno de cada cien personas desarrollarán la enfermedad de Parkinson cuando se retiren y la mitad al llegar a los cuarenta.*


That sounds to me as if you retire one day (or celebrate your 40th) and the next day, hey presto, you've got Parkinson's! Am I wrong?


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## juan2937

inib said:


> That sounds to me as if you retire one day (or celebrate your 40th) and the next day, hey presto, you've got Parkinson's! Am I wrong?



Yes you are, the timing is *future *in both ends desarrollarán Parkinson cuando se *retiren *( present future connotation) y la mitad (partitive, other group) *al llegar* a los cuarenta  (a+infinitive = future connotation in this case).


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## inib

juan2937 said:


> Yes you are, the timing is *future *in both ends desarrollarán Parkinson cuando se *retiren *( present future connotation) y la mitad (partitive, other group) *al llegar* a los cuarenta  (a+infinitive = future connotation in this case).


But the English preposition "by" suggests that they may develop it *before* retirement/the age of forty, not exactly at that moment. Here we could express that notion using the "para cuando" that chamyto suggested, but maybe "para cuando" is not used where you live?


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## juan2937

inib said:


> But the English preposition "by" suggests that they may develop it *before* retirement/the age of forty, not exactly at that moment. Here we could express that notion using the "para cuando" that chamyto suggested, but maybe "para cuando" is not used where you live?



*para cuando*, I don`t use it since it is a little *redundant *just *cuando *(when ) is enough two situations and two groups of people will suffer this illness at different age levels not inmediate one after another, both have to fulfill the timing (future) retirement 65 y/o and half 40y/o.


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## JennyTW

juan2937 said:


> Yes you are, the timing is *future *in both ends desarrollarán Parkinson cuando se *retiren *( present future connotation) y la mitad (partitive, other group) *al llegar* a los cuarenta  (a+infinitive = future connotation in this case).



In English, if you develop an illness "by retirement age" it means you develop it any time BEFORE (including up to) retirement age. If you use "cuando se reitiren" it is saying you develop it AFTER, which is wrong. 

If the use of "para cuando", as Inib suggests, is not common in your area, I think it would be safer to say;

"Uno de cada cien personas desarrollará (¿singular?) la enfermedad de Parkinson antes de jubilarse, y la mitad de estos antes de cumplir los cuarenta años".

And actually Juan, I think it should be "UNA de cada cien personas.." shouldn't it?


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## juan2937

JennyTW said:


> In English, if you develop an illness "by retirement age" it means you develop it any time BEFORE (including up to) retirement age. If you use "cuando se reitiren" it is saying you develop it AFTER, which is wrong.
> If the use of "para cuando", as Inib suggests, is not common in your area, I think it would be safer to say;
> "Uno de cada cien personas desarrollará (¿singular?) la enfermedad de Parkinson antes de jubilarse, y la mitad de estos antes de cumplir los cuarenta años".


.

Sí singular ( uno es singular) no los cien.
Cuando in Spanish does not mean posterior,in this sentence, especially when you talk about age and when *cumplas (subjunctive)*40 0r 65 just once is around that day (24 hours). Desarrollará is FUTURE prospective action. In medical  statistics is a measurement and I surmise some studies were carried out ( by retirement age 65-70-75 ) when you fulfil the age whatever one is mandatory in each country then you can enjoy the retirement  nor before neither after but around the day (24 hours).
 Cuando tengas mi edad (77) podrás comprender lo que se siente ( It does not mean after) cumplir años is one particular day ( 24 hours) not before nor after. Cuando llegue el verano disfrutaremos el mar up to the time still summer this is a segment of time longer months, not with age  this is an issue completely different.
Llegaste cuando yo salía ( simultaneous action) different situation).

Quédate hasta cuando yo me quede ( not before nor after) etc, etc.
When you arrive I will eat with you= cuando llegues comeré contigo not before just around the time you get there half one hour later, ten minutes later, five minutes later , But to be years old is a different matter.
cuando is an adverbial of time  can be a relative adverbial or a question particle to request about time. If yo still have doubts I will be very pleased  to answer them.  I don't use para cuando, it is redundant, the adverbial particle would be enough if you use it properly.


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## juan2937

JennyTW said:


> In English, if you develop an illness "by retirement age" it means you develop it any time BEFORE (including up to) retirement age. If you use "cuando se reitiren" it is saying you develop it AFTER, which is wrong.
> 
> If the use of "para cuando", as Inib suggests, is not common in your area, I think it would be safer to say;
> 
> "Uno de cada cien personas desarrollará (¿singular?) la enfermedad de Parkinson antes de jubilarse, y la mitad de estos antes de cumplir los cuarenta años".
> 
> And actually Juan, I think it should be "UNA de cada cien personas.." shouldn't it?


I am a surgeon and I was thinking about patients. But you are right in that sentence should be una.

*Antes *is not necessary para jubilarse because age of retirement is a set age according to the countries. Some seniors have lost in my country their  retirement because they resigned their employments before and not 'at'.


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## JennyTW

juan2937 said:


> .
> 
> Sí singular ( uno es singular) no los cien.
> Cuando in Spanish does not mean posterior,in this sentence, especially when you talk about age and when *cumplas (subjunctive)*40 0r 65 just once is around that day (24 hours). Desarrollará is FUTURE prospective action. In medical  statistics is a measurement and I surmise some studies were carried out ( by retirement age 65-70-75 ) when you fulfil the age whatever one is mandatory in each country then you can enjoy the retirement  nor before neither after but around the day (24 hours).
> Cuando tengas mi edad (77) podrás comprender lo que se siente ( It does not mean after) cumplir años is one particular day ( 24 hours) not before nor after. Cuando llegue el verano disfrutaremos el mar up to the time still summer this is a segment of time longer months, not with age  this is an issue completely different.
> Llegaste cuando yo salía ( simultaneous action) different situation).
> 
> Quédate hasta cuando yo me quede ( not before nor after) etc, etc.
> When you arrive I will eat with you= cuando llegues comeré contigo not before just around the time you get there half one hour later, ten minutes later, five minutes later , But to be years old is a different matter.
> cuando is an adverbial of time  can be a relative adverbial or a question particle to request about time. If yo still have doubts I will be very pleased  to answer them.  I don't use para cuando, it is redundant, the adverbial particle would be enough if you use it properly.



Sorry, perhaps I should have been more precise and said that "....desarrollan la enfermedad cuando se reitiren" means on the day they retire (as well as after). But my point was that it cannot mean BEFORE they retire and not after, as "by retirement age" does in English.


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## juan2937

JennyTW said:


> Sorry, perhaps I should have been more precise and said that "....desarrollan la enfermedad cuando se reitiren" means on the day they retire (as well as after). But my point was that it cannot mean BEFORE they retire and not after, as "by retirement age" does in English.



Then I know for sure that a medical measurement  about statistics cannot occur before if you point the *day *it is then not before. If the statistics says *cuando se jubilen* could be the very same day or shortly after. In Medicine the diseases, illnesses does not appear suddenly always hvae a past history of circumstances that gives way out to illness the background, genetics, food habits etc will come together to develop a disease. In statistics the measurements are on numbers with cases already with the disease at retirement or a fixed set age.

In Colombia the fixed retirement age is 65 years old. Not before nor after, if we are talking about age of retirement in Colombia.


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## JennyTW

That is my whole point. With "cuando" when you point to the day, it means on the day and not before. 

But the English we are trying to translate - "by" - means BEFORE. 

And it doesn't matter what the retirement age is in each country ( though here, as the original is in English, it is hardly likely to be in Colombia), the original English still means BEFORE. As you yourself say, " In statistics the measurements are on numbers with cases already with the disease at retirement or a fixed set age." So they develop it BEFORE that time.


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## aztlaniano

HallePuppy said:


> "One out of a hundred will develop it (Parkinson's) by retirement age, and half of those will develop it by the time they are forty."


It should logically be a future perfect in English so I'd use a future perfect in Spanish.
Uno de cada cien habrá contraído el mal de Parkinson al llegar a la edad de la jubilación y la mitad de estos afectados lo habrá contraído al cumplir los cuarenta.


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## JennyTW

aztlaniano said:


> It should logically be a future perfect in English so I'd use a future perfect in Spanish.
> Uno de cada cien habrá contraído el mal de Parkinson al llegar a la edad de la jubilación y la mitad de estos afectados lo habrá contraído al cumplir los cuarenta.



But we don't always have to use the future perfect when we use "by". For example "I will be there by five o'clock". It depends on whether we want to look forwards to the future, or backwards from it. ("I will have arrived by five o'clock"). 

In this case it seems perfectly natural to look forwards, using "will develop".


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## juan2937

JennyTW said:


> But we don't always have to use the future perfect when we use "by". For example "I will be there by five o'clock". It depends on whether we want to look forwards to the future, or backwards from it. ("I will have arrived by five o'clock").
> 
> In this case it seems perfectly natural to look forwards, using "will develop".


JennyTW in my dictionary the entry of 'by' is:

<<-6. *(at or before*) he should be here by now debería estar ya aquí; by then it was too late para entonces ya era demasiado tarde; by tomorrow para mañana; by 1995 they were all dead en 1995 ya estaban todos muertos; by the time I arrived, she had already gone para cuando llegué, ya se había marchado 
  -7. (during) by day de día; by night de noche, por la noche
  -*8. (with measurements, quantities, numbers) *to divide by three dividir entre tres; to multiply by three multiplicar por tres; to sell sth by weight/the kilo vender algo al peso/por kilos; 3 metres by 2 3 por 2 metros, 3 metros por 2; to increase by 50 percent aumentar en un 50 por ciento; the price has gone up by $5 el precio ha subido 5 dólares; *you were exceeding the speed limit by 30 km/h ibas 30 km/h por encima del límite de velocidad*; we are paid by the hour nos pagan por horas; they came by the thousand vinieron a miles >>>>

*The preposition 'by' used with dates, time, age should be interpreted as 'at' otherwise it would be illogical.*

Would it be 'horrible' to drive a car and to read the preposition 'by' with the road posts warnings the speed limits (by 30kmph),  they will fine you before reaching the limit (by 30kmph).


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## JennyTW

juan2937 said:


> JennyTW in my dictionary the entry of 'by' is:
> 
> <<-6. *(at or before*) he should be here by now debería estar ya aquí; by then it was too late para entonces ya era demasiado tarde; by tomorrow para mañana; by 1995 they were all dead en 1995 ya estaban todos muertos; by the time I arrived, she had already gone para cuando llegué, ya se había marchado
> -7. (during) by day de día; by night de noche, por la noche
> -*8. (with measurements, quantities, numbers) *to divide by three dividir entre tres; to multiply by three multiplicar por tres; to sell sth by weight/the kilo vender algo al peso/por kilos; 3 metres by 2 3 por 2 metros, 3 metros por 2; to increase by 50 percent aumentar en un 50 por ciento; the price has gone up by $5 el precio ha subido 5 dólares; *you were exceeding the speed limit by 30 km/h ibas 30 km/h por encima del límite de velocidad*; we are paid by the hour nos pagan por horas; they came by the thousand vinieron a miles >>>>
> 
> *The preposition 'by' used with dates, time, age should be interpreted as 'at' otherwise it would be illogical.*
> 
> Would it be 'horrible' to drive a car and to read the preposition 'by' with the road posts warnings the speed limits (by 30kmph),  they will fine you before reaching the limit (by 30kmph).



If you quote a dictionary that says that "by" means "at or before" with examples including times and dates (including the expression "para cuando" which you do not recognise) and yet you insist that it MUST mean only "at" and not "before" in these same cases, then I'm afraid that you are the one being illogical. 

But please feel free to carry on with your opinion, and we in the English-speaking world will carry on with ours. Y tan amigos. 

Un saludo


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## aztlaniano

juan2937 said:


> <<<One out of a hundred will develop it (Parkinson's) by retirement age,  and half *of those *will develop it by the time they are forty."
> Uno de cada cien personas ... y la mitad _*de este uno por ciento *_al llegar a los cuarenta.


Es decir, un 0,5 por cien ya tendrá el mal de Parkinson al llegar a los 40, otro 0,5% más al llegar a la edad de la jubilación.


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## HallePuppy

I like aztlaniano's version because there seems to be no way to misunderstand it. 

Many thanks!


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## capitas

HallePuppy said:


> So how do you say it in Spanish?  As in speaking of Parkinson's disease:  "One out of a hundred will have developed it by retirement age, and half of them will have developed it by the age of 40."
> 
> I'm translating a medical text, and am not sure what is the correct preposition here.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Antes de la edad de jubilación/Antes de cumplir los cuarenta/antes de los cuarenta, la mitad de ellos habrán desarrollado el Parkinson.


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## juan2937

JennyTW said:


> If you quote a dictionary that says that "by" means "at or before" with examples including times and dates (including the expression "para cuando" which you do not recognise) and yet you insist that it MUST mean only "at" and not "before" in these same cases, then I'm afraid that you are the one being illogical.
> 
> But please feel free to carry on with your opinion, and we in the English-speaking world will carry on with ours. Y tan amigos.
> 
> Un saludo



Thanks anyway , according to context the translation should be *at *and in others *before*.


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## inib

juan2937 said:


> Thanks anyway , according to context the translation should be *at *and in others *before*.


Juan, the whole point is that when we use "by" in English, we don't have to make a choice about whether *at *or *before *is meant. The word itself covers *both* possibilities in one go. As I hinted before, it is highly unlikely that an illness will develop on one specific and important day. It's much more likely that it will appear any time over a period leading up to that day.


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## HallePuppy

Hmmm...I don't see it as looking forward.  I see it as mentally projecting oneself into the future, and from there, looking back--which is what the future perfect is. Something that will have been completed (perfected) at some defined point in the future.


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## FromPA

JennyTW said:


> But we don't always have to use the future perfect when we use "by". For example "I will be there by five o'clock". It depends on whether we want to look forwards to the future, or backwards from it. ("I will have arrived by five o'clock").
> 
> In this case it seems perfectly natural to look forwards, using "will develop".



Sometimes conversational grammar doesn't translate well.  While the use of "will develop by retirement" is understood in English to mean the same thing as "will have developed by retirement," the future perfect tense more precisely implies that a process is involved that will be completed by a future date. Evidently, as Aztlaniano suggests, that's what's needed to convey the idea of "by" in Spanish.


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## juan2937

aztlaniano said:


> Es decir, un 0,5 por ciento ya tendrá el mal de Parkinson al llegar a los 40, otro 0,5% más al llegar a la edad de la jubilación.



1% Parkinson's at retirement
0.5% at the age of forty (half of it).


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## HallePuppy

I'm hanging with the future perfect. My Mexican students use it all the time in Spanish, so why not in English?


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## juan2937

inib said:


> Juan, the whole point is that when we use "by" in English, we don't have to make a choice about whether *at *or *before *is meant. The word itself covers *both* possibilities in one go. As I hinted before, it is highly unlikely that an illness will develop on one specific and important day. It's much more likely that it will appear any time over a period leading up to that day.



Inib I agree that illnesses don't pup up just like that, but in medical statistics we write down: At time of retirement in my country 65 y/o the number of patients suffering Parkinson is 1% ( we don't look backwards ) we look into the group of 65 y/o which has Parkinson disease. The group of 65 years old is  a reference point in order to work properly the statistics in the medical field.
We do the same with cancer, ulcerative colitis, etc.


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## HallePuppy

This is not a medical report. It's written for laymen.


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## juan2937

HallePuppy said:


> This is not a medical report. It's written for laymen.



It is a report for a group of patients or people with Parkinson disease, this illness is within the medical field. Statistics can work with government, movies, economics almost in all fields of human activities.


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