# Assjadah



## Maroseika

Hello.
Jud Süß from the Feuchtwanger's novel has a horse Assjadah, whose name he translates as 'Morgenländische', i.e. Levantian. The horse was brought to him from Levant.

This word looks like Arabic, but is there really anything like that in Arabic? What literally this Assjadah means, if any?


----------



## Kinan

maybe it's السيادة ?


----------



## Maroseika

Could you please spell it in English and translate? Online dictionary gives "sovereignty", but I don't think it's correct and it has nothing to do with what Feuchtwanger meant. I still hope it really means something like eastern or levantian. Maybe dawn.


----------



## hiba

Maybe السجادة assijjaadah, meaning carpet or rug. Not sure how that would make sense.


----------



## AndyRoo

Maybe it's عسجدة `asjadah

My dictionary says:
العسجدية: ركاب الملوك وهي في الأصل إبل كانت تزين للنعمان
which _I think_ means:
al-`asjadiyyah were mounts of kings, originally camels decorated for the kings governing al-Hira [in present day Iraq].

عسجد `asjad is an uncommon word for "gold".


----------



## Maroseika

Very interesting. But still too far from the sought-for.
If no other versions, I'm afraid it's either not Arabic or Feuchtwanger has invented this Arabish word himself.


----------



## ayed

Maroseika said:


> Very interesting. But still too far from the sought-for.
> If no other versions, I'm afraid it's either not Arabic or Feuchtwanger has invented this Arabish word himself.


 العسجدي اسم فرس لبني أسد من نتاج *الديناري بن الهميس* بن زاد الركب 
Al-A'sjadi : it is a horse's name owned by Bani Asad(Asad sons"people") bred by Ad-dinaari bin Al-Humais bin Zaad Ar-rakeb


----------



## إسكندراني

Assjadah in German is phonetically equivalent to Assiadah in English.
السيادة (as-siaadah) does indeed mean sovereignty.


----------



## Tracer

A difficult question with odd facts: (forgive the lack of unlauts)

1. The author is *Lion Feuchtwanger* and the novel is called *Jud Suss*, 1925 (a historical figure: Joseph Suss Oppenheimer +1738). 

2. An earlier author, *Wilhelm Hauff*, also wrote a book about this person with the same title (!) 1827.

3. A modern (and living author): *Peter Süess-Kolbl* (relation to Joseph above??) has written a novelette entitled: *ASSJADAH*, 2005 described as: *(Eine Geschichte aus dem Maghreb - voller Freude und Trauer, Hoffnung und Niedergeschlagenheit = A novel about Morocco- full of joy and sorrow, hope and sadness)*

Asbar!! It gets better

*4. **morgenländisch(e)* actually means *Oriental (adjective)*

*The Levant* is precisely *Der* *Levant.*

----> *5. Very important: “J” in German is pronounced as a “Y”*

*Conclusions:*

*ASSJADAH*

1. is simply a made-up name which sounds “oriental”

2. is the name of a city, either in Morocco or the “Levant”.

*3. My best guess: *

If the horse was a female horse (a mare), ASSJADA is probably the feminine of the Arabic al-SAYYID *السيد*
which is to say al-SAYYIDA *السيدة *which means THE LADY and is pronounced ASSAYYIDA . In other words, it is the name of the (female) horse: 

*ASSJADA = ASSAYYIDA **السيدة = THE LADY*

If the horse was a male, then it could be Arabic al-SIYAADA (pronounced ASSIYADA) *السيادة *which means SUPREMACY and would be a nice name for a horse

*ASSJADA = ASSIYADA السيادة = THE SUPREMACY*

_*(But ASSJADA definitely does not mean “Oriental”) *_


----------



## AndyRoo

Just to add, this page: http://www.alor.org/Triumph%20of%20The%20Past/Cooney's%20St%20George.htm summarising a 2004 novel based on the life of St. George says:

She [Giorgios's betrothed] gives him for his Christmas present a white Arab filly whom he names Assjadah, Daughter of the Morning.


----------



## Tracer

AndyRoo said:


> Just to add, this page: http://www.alor.org/Triumph of The Past/Cooney's St George.htm summarising a 2004 novel based on the life of St. George says:
> 
> She [Giorgios's betrothed] gives him for his Christmas present a white Arab filly whom he names Assjadah, Daughter of the Morning.


 
Nice research.  St George was a Roman citizen, soldier and so on and presumably spoke Latin.

Like in German, the letter "J" in Latin is also pronounced like an English "Y" so the filly's name would have been pronounced by St George as ASSYADAH.  

Since it was an "Arab filly", it could very well mean that they got it from an "Arab" and they kept the same Arabic name:  al-Sayyida  THE LADY.

In German, the word for the "Orient" is "*morgenländisch"* meaning "Land of the morning or Land of the Rising Sun".

At some point, German "morgen" must have somehow been mis-identified with the term ASSYADAH so that one became the translation of the other.  Or something like that.

I'm pretty sure now that ASSYADAH was originally an Arabic word/name meaning THE LADY......al-Sayyidah. The horse, according to your source was female (filly) so her "gender" is now established.  At least to me that's what makes most sense.

Her name very unlikely ever had a sound "J" or Arabic "Jeem" sound associated with it until recent times.


----------



## إسكندراني

Or maybe الصيادة (feminine word, 'the hunter')


----------



## Tracer

إسكندراني said:


> Or maybe الصيادة (feminine word, 'the hunter')


 

Excellent suggestion, ya إسكندراني


----------



## Maroseika

AndyRoo said:


> Just to add, this page: http://www.alor.org/Triumph%20of%20The%20Past/Cooney's%20St%20George.htm summarising a 2004 novel based on the life of St. George says:
> 
> She [Giorgios's betrothed] gives him for his Christmas present a white Arab filly whom he names Assjadah, Daughter of the Morning.


This is the closest to what we are looking for. But does it really mean Daughter of the Morning in Arabic?


----------



## AndyRoo

Maroseika said:


> This is the closest to what we are looking for. But does it really mean Daughter of the Morning in Arabic?


 
No - I don't think so.

Perhaps it's not Arabic - maybe another Semitic language like Syriac.


----------



## Tracer

Maroseika said:


> This is the closest to what we are looking for. But does it really mean Daughter of the Morning in Arabic?


 
Maroseika: It seems to me that you guys are trying to interpret the facts to fit into a *predetermined conclusion* rather that arriving at a conclusion based on the facts.

If the horse came from the "Levant", if it was an "Arab filly", if it was originally owned by an "Arab", it is quite likely that ASSJADAH is an Arabic "term" and was the original name which was kept by subsequent owners.

You state that the horse is one "*whose name he (*Feuchtwanger)* translates as 'Morgenländische". *

Translated into what? German? If he did "translate" it into German, he pronounced the "J" as "Y" and so did every other German reader.

Presumably, he didn't know Arabic so his "translation" is without merit......"someone" probably told him that ASSJADAH meant "Daughter of the Morning" but how that meaning was attached to ASSJADAH is lost in the mists of time.....but whenever it happened and whoever proposed such a meaning was obviously incorrect.

The suggestions offered above.....that ASSJADAH was pronounced by Germans as "ASSYADAH" and most likely means "Sir" or "The Lady" or "The Huntress" in Arabic..... fits the available facts perfectly.

That ASSJADAH could mean something close to *"Daughter of the Morning"* or to *"morgenlandische"* (Oriental) is, to me, completely without foundation.


----------



## Maroseika

Tracer said:


> Maroseika: It seems to me that you guys are trying to interpret the facts to fit into a *predetermined conclusion* rather that arriving at a conclusion based on the facts.



The only thing I wanted to check was whether Feuchtwanger has invennted the word himself or not. No prejudice at all.
Here is what was written in the original:

*Auch für den eigenen Gebrauch hielt er sich einen arabischen Schimmel, die Stute Assjadah, zu deutsch: die Morgenländische. Der Levantiner Daniele Foa hatte sie ihm verkauft, sie stammte aus den Ställen des Kalifen.*

We see now that:
- it was a mare of Arabic breed;
- it arrived from the Kalif's stall, most probably from Levant.

And as far as I can understand from the discussion, it cannot mean "Eastern" or "Levantian" in Arabic.


----------



## إسكندراني

Maybe they used to say السيّدة to mean 'the respectable' in the sense that Arabic breeds are the elite of horses? Otherwise I see no direct connection.


----------



## Maroseika

Many thanks to all. Your information was very usefull.


----------



## Ustaath

Tracer said:


> Nice research.  St George was a Roman citizen, soldier and so on and presumably spoke Latin.


Just a gentle comment on that. There is a major Bay in Beirut called St George(s) presumably where the legendary battle with the Dragon was slayed -according to Lebanese Arabs. He's a favourite Saint of many Easterners. In my home town, local superstitions point to a rock where the horse's hoof allegedly struck while ascending to heaven leaving a mark behind called " St George's Hoof Mark."

Many communities 'own' St. George(s).  Greek names were
 ( and still are ) not uncommon in the Levant and Egypt.

All this to say that I think the Arabic 3asjadah, one of the names of sparkling Gold - feminized- also conveys a 'bright shining morning golden sunbeam." AND is not an uncommon Horse name.
As for 'j' vs 'y' all languages have shifts and try to naturalize pronunciations. We do it with 'P" amd "B" all the time.


----------



## إسكندراني

Ustaath said:


> All this to say that I think the Arabic 3asjadah, one of the names of sparkling Gold - feminized- also conveys a 'bright shining morning golden sunbeam." AND is not an uncommon Horse name.
> As for 'j' vs 'y' all languages have shifts and try to naturalize pronunciations. We do it with 'P" amd "B" all the time.


There's no shift involved; German still pronounces j as y.
Please can you spell the word in red in Arabic?


----------



## Tracer

Ustaath said:


> There is a major Bay in Beirut called St George(s)...All this to say that I think the Arabic 3asjadah, one of the names of sparkling Gold - feminized- also conveys a 'bright shining morning golden sunbeam." AND is not an uncommon Horse name. As for 'j' vs 'y' all languages have shifts and try to naturalize pronunciations. We do it with 'P" amd "B" all the time.


 
Thanks you Ustaath. If 3asjadah is a common horse name, then almost surely this is the ultimate source that MAROSEIKA was looking for. "A common name for a horse that means "Golden" also meaning "A bright shining morning golden sunbeam" which could easily have been changed to "Daughter of the Morning"

I missed *ANDYROO'*s previous comment: " *عسجد `asjad is an uncommon word for "gold". "* and also *Ayed's* comment on this subject.

_*Now we have additional facts: 3sjad means Gold in Arabic. It can mean the rays of the morning sun. It is a common horse's name. And the Bani Ayed's owned a horse with this name.* _

Bottom line: "Daughter of the Morning" or "Oriental" (*Morgenländische) *become strong possibilities as the meaning of the original "ASSJADAH" as allegorical interpretations of this word.

The translations of "Sir","Lady" and "Huntress" and "Supremacy" are now weak contenders for the meaning of *Feuchtwanger's Assjadah.*

_(PS Is there still a King George V hotel in Beirut?)_


----------



## إسكندراني

عسجدة eh? Much more sensible than our previous suggestions!
But the j should really have been a dsch if the guy was dscherman!


----------



## Ghabi

But the ج is pronounced as ي in some dialects, right?


----------



## Tracer

إسكندراني said:


> عسجدة eh? Much more sensible than our previous suggestions!
> But the j should really have been a dsch if the guy was dscherman!


 
Yes, I agree.

In German,
YEMEN is spelled---à JEMEN

And the following Saudi cities are:
AL-KHARJ (الخرج‎)--------------------à ALCHARDSCH
JEDDAH----------------------------------------------------à DSCHIDDA
AL-RIYADH----------------------------------------------------------à ERRIJAD

KHAMIS MUSHAYT (خميس مشيط )-------------------àCHAMISMUSCHAIT (!!) 
Al-KHOBAR (الخبر )--------------------------------------àALCHUBAR (!!!) (haha)


----------



## Maroseika

Thanks again. Now the author is rehabilitated.


----------



## إسكندراني

Tracer said:


> KHAMIS MUSHAYT (خميس مشيط )-------------------àCHAMISMUSCHAIT (!!)
> Al-KHOBAR (الخبر )--------------------------------------àALCHUBAR (!!!) (haha)


Doesn't seem that strange; just a curiousity that each european language spells foreign names differently! The spaniards don't even have a j; they would spell it something like asyada. The italians would spell it asgiada. etc.


----------



## Ustaath

Ghabi said:


> But the ج is pronounced as ي in some dialects, right?



yes in certain areas of the Gulf "j" is 'y'


----------

