# darum (pronunciation)



## jos.dan

Hallo an alle 

What is the proper pronunciation of "darum"? ['da:ʁʊm] (stress on the first syllable) or [da:'ʁʊm] (stress on the second syllable)? I think the first one is correct, since it's the only one in Forvo and also the one Duden cites. But the Wiktionary entry includes an audio with the second pronunciation, and that confused me a little.

Aussprache von darum: Wie man darum auf Deutsch ausspricht
darum
darum - Wiktionary

Thank you in advance!


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## elroy

I've never heard it pronounced with the stress on the second syllable.


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## Hutschi

In Wictionary they speak it in the sense "go around it' Geh mal da 'rum! I would not write this as one word, but Wictionary defines it as homonym. They did not give an example for the meaning "that's why", "therefore", and "because".


See also next entry of Sowka.

ps: Also in sense 1 it depends on context.


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## Sowka

In the case of "Ich kümmere mich darum", the stress is on the second syllable. So it seems to depend on the function of the word within the sentence.

When it means "because of", the stress is on the first syllable. (This is also stated in the Duden quote).


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## Hutschi

So it depends on context, too.

Nevertheless there should be two entries to show the difference.

PS: Also in Sowka's sentence it depends on the sense you want to express and/or stress.


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## elroy

Sowka said:


> In the case of "Ich kümmere mich darum", the stress is on the second syllable.


Hmmm... to me it sounds like equal stress on each syllable, or maybe the sliiiiiightest bit of stress on the second syllable. 🤔


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## Hutschi

Maybe it is the contrast.
If you stress the first syllable it is a demonstrative. (Um das da.)
If you stress the second (weakly) the main information is "Ich kümmere mich."


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## Demiurg

The length of the 'a' is also relevant:  [ˈd*aː*ʁʊm] (long) vs.[d*a*ˈʁʊm] (short)


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> Maybe it is the contrast.
> If you stress the first syllable it is a demonstrative. (Um das da.)
> If you stress the second (weakly) the main information is "Ich kümmere mich."


This is true.  My point is that I don't really perceive much stress if any in the second one.  If I say the word with stress on the second syllable, it sounds very different.  Maybe I'll make a recording.


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## elroy

Here we go: Darum.mp3

1. Stress on "da"
2. Equal stress (or ever-so-slight stress on "rum")
3. Stress on "rum" [artificial]


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## bearded

There is a sort of pun:  _Warum? Darum!  _Semantically it should be demonstrative (dàrum), but then I feel that the stress should be the same in both words... What do Germans say?


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## Hutschi

It is the same.
Ei *wa*rum, ei *da*rum, ei bloß wegen Tschingdarassa bumdarassasa. (with stressed first syllable and long "a")

Quelle: Marlene Dietrich - Wenn die Soldaten... Songtext
Wenn die Soldaten... Songtext
von Marlene Dietrich

Ei warum? Ei darum!
Ei warum? Ei darum!
Ei bloß wegen dem
Schingderassa,
Bumderassasa!

You may find it as song in the Internet, and you will see the symmetry.

"Warum" can have two different stresses. But at the first syllable it is seldom stressed. If it is stressed at the first syllable it becomes more important. (*Wa*rum hast du das getan?) I see  the anger; "Erhobener Zeigefinger".

I know the melody and how it is stressed.

--
PS: "von Marlene Dietrich" means here she sung it - it does not mean she wrote it.


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## Demiurg

bearded said:


> There is a sort of pun:  _Warum? Darum!  _Semantically it should be demonstrative (dàrum), but then I feel that the stress should be the same in both words... What do Germans say?


They are usually pronounced [vaˈʁʊm] (short 'a', stress on second syllable) and [ˈdaːʁʊm] (long 'a', stress on first syllable).  But there's for example an old song "Wenn die Soldaten durch die Stadt marschieren" with the lines "Ei warum? Ei darum!" where both are pronounced identically (long 'a', stress on first syllable).

Edit: Da hatte Hutschi wohl den gleichen Gedanken.


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## Hutschi

In daily language pronunciation at the first syllable indicates often anger.
It makes it heavy.

*Wa*rum haben Sie das so gemacht und nicht, wie ich es Ihnen gesagt habe?
*Wa*rum bist du noch nicht angezogen?
(Often a pure rhetorical question. Or a kind of threat/Drohung) It can also mean that it is very important and you need the answer. This depends on context. I feel it as strongly marked.) (Long "a")

Wa*rum *haben Sie das so gemacht und nicht, wie ich es Ihnen gesagt habe?
(Indicates mostly a real question, you want to know it. "Neugier") It is the default (standard, Duden).


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> The length of the 'a' is also relevant:  [ˈd*aː*ʁʊm] (long) vs.[d*a*ˈʁʊm] (short)


That is a general feature of German: Phonemically long vowels are phonetically short in unstressed syllables.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Hmmm... to me it sounds like equal stress on each syllable, or maybe the sliiiiiightest bit of stress on the second syllable. 🤔


True but this sufficient to perceive the second syllable as stress. Unstressed pronunciation of the first syllable is probably already enough.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> this sufficient to perceive the second syllable as stress.


Not for me.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Not for me.


Yes, but we are talking about how German phonology works. If the first syllable of a two syllable word is clearly unstressed this automatically makes the second one stressed unless you pronounce the second syllable also clearly unstressed. But that would sound extremely outlandish.


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## elroy

You spoke of _perception_; that’s what I responded to.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> Not for me.


What do you mean here?


I analysed the different sources:

darum
In case of "darum" the Duden gives both versions.
Besonderer Nachdruck: the first syllable is stressed and long.
Meaning "deshalb": first syllable is stressed.
Default: the second syllable is short and stressed.

(Otherwise, if i take that "m" is a long consonant - that lengthens the syllable.)

In Wictionary they only give a stressed second syllable of "darum". (The description is incomplete.)




"Warum" is clearly stressed at the second syllable in the Duden: warum

In your own examples:


#10
The first is stressed at the first syllable - slightly too much, the second on the second syllable (almoust naturally), and the third is artificially "over"stressed at the second syllable.

The problem: You try to pronounce it very articulated. It does not sound natural.

In the dictionaries, they pronounce also more than clear. It is like my teacher in dictionaries when writing a "Diktat".


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## elroy

No, the third one is not “overstressed.”  That, for me, is ordinary stress, but it doesn’t occur in German in that word — that’s why it _sounds_ overstressed.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> You spoke of _perception_; that’s what I responded to.


I meant perception in German phonology. Do you realise that the first syllable in your second sample is very clear de-stressed and that therefore there is a clear difference in *relative* stress?


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## elroy

berndf said:


> perception in German phonology


What does this mean?


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> No, the third one is not “overstressed.” That, for me, is ordinary stress, but it doesn’t occur in German in that word — that’s why it _sounds_ overstressed.



I did not consider the word but the sentence. In the sentence in the second example I hear the second syllable clearly stressed.
I will use another description for the third sentence: The stress at the second syllable is too strong to sound like the stress in a natural sentence.

I listened again. The second syllable is also unusually long.
But it should be a stressed short syllable. (As in "zusammen", "Damm" etc. - The shortening is not marked in "warum" and "darum".)


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## berndf

elroy said:


> What does this mean?


How a realisation translates into phonemic features in a language. In other words, the native speakers' consensus how a particular realisations is to be perceived.


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## elroy

Sorry, I don’t know what that means either.
It’s okay, though.  We don’t need to discuss this further.


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## berndf

Do you hear the strong difference in relative stress between the first and second syllable in your middle pronunciation?


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## Frank78

elroy said:


> Hmmm... to me it sounds like equal stress on each syllable, or maybe the sliiiiiightest bit of stress on the second syllable. 🤔



 

I have the same impression. The short a in the first syllable doesn't make me perceiving the second syllable stressed at all. But I hated and regularly failed at those exercises of identifying the stressed syllable at school.


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## Hutschi

I listened again. I hear stress at the second syllable very clearly in teh second sentence. 
However, the main stress of the sentence is at "kümmere mich". The stress in "warum" is clearly at the second syllable. It is part of the "Satzmelodie" (intonation). 

As I mentioned in other threads: The ear+brain filters the sound informations. It is simply not possible to "hear" all information.

So we can filter rather differently. 


My background:

I am writing poetry, stress and intonation are very important there. Especially weak differences. In older times often strong contrast was important.  It was "skandiert"= spoken with very strong rhythm. (Is this to chant?) This is usually not the case anymore. Nevertheless small differences in stress are important.


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## jos.dan

A bit late, but thanks a lot for all the answers. Every detailed answers helps me a lot, and since I'm quite interested in phonetics, I find it fascinating how much the stress or "unstress" of a syllable can be analyzed and how it can change the meaning of a word


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