# かと思うと and のかと思うと



## Kenshiromusou

Yo, friends.
I would like to know if かと思うと and のかと思うと are the same thing.
I learned かと思うと = at the thought of; when I think about.
But seems this のかと思うと works alike. 
昔、彼は善人だったという。あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*のかと思うと*、逆にちょっと怖いような気がする。
In this case, would be the same (*When we think about* that frightening old man living well with his daughter, it's a bit scary...")  with or without the *の, no?*
Thank you very much.


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## karlalou

かと思うと and のかと思うと seem to be the same.
I feel のかと思うと is the fully spelled version.

In second thought, even though


> あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*のかと思うと*、


in this case, with or without の doesn't make any difference, depending on the meaning, の is required.

What I can think of now is like this:
これをぜんぶ片づけるのかと思うと気が重い。
We don't say this without の.

Thinking of when we say without の in standard Japanese, what I can think of is ～にするか～にするか迷う. Or when a noun comes before it we don't say の: 誰かと思った, 雨かと思ったら違った.

We can't generalize anything by looking at just a few examples.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I can't find any difference between with and without version of the の.
You can choose whichever you like.


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## frequency

Your のか has the small nuance of "wonder if". But it's almost the same as


> あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*と思うと*、


You're not especially asking if they were so, both in the OP and the example above.

Furthermore, you can omit の in that example. As Doberman said,


SoLaTiDoberman said:


> You can choose whichever you like.


Why? I haven't heard of any special rule for it.


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## Kenshiromusou

karlalou said:


> かと思うと and のかと思うと seem to be the same.
> I feel のかと思うと is the fully spelled version.
> 
> In second thought, even though
> 
> in this case, with or without の doesn't make any difference, depending on the meaning, の is required.
> 
> What I can think of now is like this:
> これをぜんぶ片づけるのかと思うと気が重い。
> We don't say this without の.
> 
> Thinking of when we say without の in standard Japanese, what I can think of is ～にするか～にするか迷う. Or when a noun comes before it we don't say の: 誰かと思った, 雨かと思ったら違った.
> 
> We can't generalize anything by looking at just a few examples.


karlalouさん、どうもありがとうございました。



SoLaTiDoberman said:


> I can't find any difference between with and without version of the の.
> You can choose whichever you like.


SoLaTiDobermanさん、どうもありがとうございました。


frequency said:


> *Your のか has the small nuance of "wonder if".* But it's almost the same as
> 
> You're not especially asking if they were so, both in the OP and the example above.
> 
> Furthermore, you can omit の in that example. As Doberman said,
> 
> Why? I haven't heard of any special rule for it.


Is it the case, no? Before to ask here, I used to think it as:
かと思うと = When we think it may...
 のかと思うと = When we wonder whether...
I don't know the reason, but "When we wonde*r *whether that frightening old man lived well with his daughter, it's a bit scary..." looks weird... Seems it does not convey the sarcasm...
友よ、どうもありがとうございました。


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## frequency

It has the nuance of "wonder if/whether". But you're not "strongly" wondering there. 

「あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていたのかと思うと、」is the condition you think it's scary. 
This is rather close to, 
"It's scary when (if) I think that frightening old man living well with his daughter.."

If you say,
彼女は元気なのか心配だ。
You say 心配 because you don't know how she is, so you're more "strongly" wondering..context involves.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

1. あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*と思うと*、
2. あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*かと思うと*、
    =「あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*か？*」*と思うと*、
3. あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*のかと思うと*、
　=「あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*のか？*」*と思うと*、

I think ２and 3 are the same, but 1 is different although all the three are roughly the same.
か and のか are the question makers, but in this context, they are used not for a simple question but a rhetorical question. In this context, I believe it conveys the surprise of the speaker.

1.-->_When I *think that *the frightening old man was living well with his daughter,_
2.3. -->_When I'*m surprised to know that* the frightening old man was living well with his daughter,_

か and のか emphasize the strong emotional movement of the speaker.  I mean that the speaker was impressed/moved. In this context, I decided that the emotion must have been "*surprise*."
Not the "*suspicion*" or "*doubt*" or "*uncertainty*" in this context.
Therefore, when you chose "*wonder* if," you would think that it looked odd. I think. 

edit) Retracted
(see ↓）


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## Flaminius

I understand your overall intent, SLTD.  Still I think the question markers is somewhat a misleading label.  Usually we do not write:


> 「あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていた*か？*」*と思うと*


There is no element of doubt as you said later in your post.  It is not a rhetorical question either.  This piece may be an illustrative rendering of a more natural utterance but it must be explicitly said that we do not use a question mark and braces in actual usage.

か and のか in your post are emotive or affective markers.  One uses it to comment how one is emotionally affected (usually surprise but also anger or doubt) by finding the fact marked by them.  The doubt function overlaps with the interrogative か and のか.  Etymologically it may be even natural for the latter to have developed from the former, but they are separate functions and it's a good practice to distinguish them whenever possible.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Thank you, Flaminius, for your making things more precise and  clearer. 

I personally thought that the emotive or affective markers, か or のか, came from the question makers of the same spelling originally in the Japanese's development in the old times.
I just thought that my way of thinking might be helpful for Japanese learners, but if it is harmful for learners, I'm willing to take it back.
I'll retract #7.


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## Flaminius

I am merely showing the etymology can be thought of as the reverse of your point.  The fact that the sentence in question is not a rhetorical question can be argued separately.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Flaminius said:


> The fact that the sentence in question is not a rhetorical question can be argued separately.


Can it be argued separately in this thread?
Then, how do you know that the sentence in question is not a rhetorical question, if I may ask?  (ついていけてますかね？？）

From what I understand, rhetorical questions have the style of questions, but the meaning is not asking.
For example,
いいかげんにせんか（しないか）？　
→*あまりの傍若無人ぶりに堪忍袋の緒が切れたのか、いいかげんにせんかと言った。*


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## Flaminius

> ついていけてますかね？？


Yes, I think I follow you.  Let's try to address the original question as we sort out our differences over how to define the rhetorical question.

A rhetorical question in English emphatically refutes the statement contained in the sentence.  It is very similar to a regular interrogative sentence in form but it does not expect standard answers for either a Yes/No question or a Wh-question.  The response in the following dialogue is a rhetorical question:
- Does anyone know where Princess Di's 1234th pair of gloves are?
- Who knows?

The answer is not uttered to ask who knows the whereabouts of the precious item but to refute the underlying "that someone knows it."  Hence we get "No one knows," with entailment that I, the speaker, don't know or even with that I have no interest in knowing.

In Japanese one would respond with そんなこと知るか in the dialogue.  This is equivalent to 知らない, so it negates 知る or 知っている that is included in the sentence.  It is a rhetorical question, all right.

Your いいかげんにせんか is few steps away from the above but can be thought of as derived from a rhetorical question.  We should first recognize that 〜しないか is used as a question that expects a positive answer (being a question in form but with little room for answering by a no), then expect it to develop into an exhortative construction, and finally see it develop into a full imperative.  The important thing about the rhetorical question is to note that an underlying statement is negated or at least doubted.

Coming back to the original question, I doubt if anything is negated in:
あのおっかないおっさんが仲良く娘と暮らしていたのか

The speaker may be surprised, impressed, pleased or disgusted by what he learns about the man and his daughter, but the speaker does not doubt the fact that they got along well.  This is the major difference between previous examples and the original question.  The latter, at least in my way of defining it, is not a rhetorical question.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Okay, thank you for the clarification! 
By the way, (ついていけてますかね？？）in #11 meant, "Have *I (SLTD) * understood your (Flaminius's) intention correctly and responded correctly?"


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