# Sabine (pronunciation [S or Z])



## susanna76

Hi,

I was looking up the pronunciation of German tennis player Sabine Lisicki on forvo.com, and found two pronunciations for the name Sabine?

Can it really be pronounced two ways? Some Germans there used an initial while others used an initial [Z] (as in Sachen). I thought it was definitely pronounced [Zabine] but I see some people pronounce it with an .


----------



## Shiratori99

Yes, the pronunciation of certain words and names starting with S varies among German speakers. It's usually pronounced with [z] though.


----------



## susanna76

Thank you, Shiratori99! Do you notice a difference based on region, or does it vary everywhere?


----------



## ger4

The pronunciation of word-initial s as a voiceless /s/ is typical for the southern parts of Germany (as well as Austria and Switzerland).


----------



## Frank78

susanna76 said:


> Thank you, Shiratori99! Do you notice a difference based on region, or does it vary everywhere?



In standard German it is: "s" = /z/ and "ss"/"ß" = /s/. So in theory a word cannot begin with an /s/ (true for most, except southern accents) and cannot end with a /z/ due to the final obstruent devoicing (always true).

But neither northern nor southern speakers can distinguish those two, only the Germans living in between.


----------



## perpend

Frank78 said:


> In standard German it is: "s" = /z/ and "ss"/"ß" = /s/. So in theory a word cannot begin with an /s/ (true for most, except southern accents) and cannot end with a /z/ due to the final obstruent devoicing (always true).
> 
> But neither northern nor southern speakers can distinguish those two, only the Germans living in between.



So true, Frank, and really sad for Sabine.


----------



## ger4

Frank78 said:


> But neither northern nor southern speakers can distinguish those two, only the Germans living in between.


Northern speakers can


----------



## susanna76

Thank you all!


----------



## perpend

Mir ist aufgefallen (OP):
Susanne
Zusanne

Is that part of your question, susanna?


----------



## Frank78

Holger2014 said:


> Northern speakers can



So you don't want to pronounce an ß as /s/?


----------



## Kajjo

Frank78 said:


> But neither northern nor southern speakers can distinguish those two, only the Germans living in between.


What do you mean?

/s/ and /z/ are clearly distinguished by standard speakers ("Hochdeutsch").

Sabine is pronounced with voice, /z/.

Initial "s" mostly /z/ like _Sabine, sind, Sohn, sollen... _(exeptions before ch, k, z: /s/ _Szene, Swing..._)

Final "s" mostly /s/ like _aus, das, Hals..._

Inital "st, sp" mostly like /sch/ like _Stein, Spaß, Student..._


----------



## ger4

I think the only variety of northern German where /z/ isn't clearly distinguished from /s/ is a dialect (or, perhaps, sociolect) that seems to have disappeared: Petuh.


----------



## Resa Reader

Being from the south I belong to those speakers who don't voice an "s" at the beginning of a word. In the end, it's not really important as there is never a difference in meaning between the two ways of pronunciation.

For me it's just a variant. You don't want to tell people from Austria that they all pronounce those words wrongly, do you?


----------



## berndf

Frank78 said:


> So you don't want to pronounce an ß as /s/?


No. Low German natively has both sounds /s/ and /z/. Low German speakers have do problems with distinguishing the two.

Upper German lacks the sound /z/ completely. It is never been developed in any Upper German dialect. They are still able to distinguish the sounds of _s_ and _ß_ but in a different way. In Bavarian (although I live in Switzerland, Bavarian is the Upper German dialect group I know most about) the distinction is s=/s/ and ß=/s:/, e.g. they distinguish _ein weiser Mann _and _ein weißer Mann _as [ɐ ʋoɐsɐ mɒː] vs. [ɐ ʋoɐsːɐ mɒː].


----------



## berndf

Resa Reader said:


> Being from the south I belong to those speakers who don't voice an "s" at the beginning of a word. In the end, it's not really important as there is never a difference in meaning between the two ways of pronunciation.
> 
> For me it's just a variant. You don't want to tell people from Austria that they all pronounce those words wrongly, do you?


I have a question for you as a native speaker. Do you distinguish the sounds of _aus_ and _Haus_. The standard spelling is etymologically wrong. Only the _Haus_ has a true /s/. The final sound of _aus_ should be _ß_. The misspelling emerged when Middle and Northern German speakers lost the ability to distinguish final _s_ and _ß _(in derived words like_ außen _the original _ß _is still present). As you distinguish _s_ and _ß _differently, can you also hear the difference at the end of the word?


----------



## Resa Reader

berndf said:


> I have a question for you as a native speaker. Do you distinguish the sounds of _aus_ and _Haus_. The standard spelling is etymologically wrong. Only the _Haus_ has a true /s/. The final sound of _aus_ should be _ß_. The misspelling emerged when Middle and Northern German speakers lost the ability to distinguish final _s_ and _ß _(in derived words like_ außen _the original _ß _is still present). As you distinguish _s_ and _ß _differently, can you also hear the difference at the end of the word?



I repeated "aus" and "Haus" a couple of times, but I can't hear any difference. Of course I make a difference between "der weise Mann" and der "weiße Mann" as you already pointed out.


----------



## Kajjo

_Haus _and _aus (_and _weiß) _have the identical /s/ in standard German (Hochdeutsch) as given by Duden Aussprachewörterbuch. 

_Weise _is pronounced with /z/.


----------



## berndf

Kajjo said:


> _Haus _and _aus (_and _weiß) _have the identical /s/ in standard German (Hochdeutsch) as given by Duden Aussprachewörterbuch.


Of course. I asked Resa as a Bavarian native speaker. In Middle High German the difference was audible. I was just curious, if the difference had been preserved in Bavarian.


----------



## berndf

Resa Reader said:


> I repeated "aus" and "Haus" a couple of times, but I can't hear any difference. Of course I make a difference between "der weise Mann" and der "weiße Mann" as you already pointed out.


Thank you.


----------



## wandle

So for the non-native speaker, aiming at standard _Hochdeutsch_, is there any need to distinguish _*s*_ from _*ß*_?


----------



## berndf

wandle said:


> So for the non-native speaker, aiming at standard _Hochdeutsch_, is there any need to distinguish _*s*_ from _*ß*_?


Yes. S=/z/ and ß=/s/ and ss=/s/ as well except at the end of the word where all are /s/.


----------



## Shiratori99

berndf said:


> Yes. S=/z/ and ß=/s/ and ss=/s/ as well except at the end of the word where all are /s/.



I think the S in the middle of a word is only pronounced as /z/ when it's followed by a vowel. See Masern (/z/) and Maske (/s/).

Also there are some exceptions, like Sex (/s/) and derived words.


----------



## Frank78

Shiratori99 said:


> I think the S in the middle of a word is only pronounced as /z/ when it's followed by a vowel. See Masern (/z/) and Maske (/s/).



Not quite. Final obstruent devoicing occurs at the end of each syllable. Ma-sern but Mas-ke.



Shiratori99 said:


> Also there are some exceptions, like Sex (/s/) and derived words.



Of course, loanwords can start with an /s/ if the assimilation process isn't very advanced.



berndf said:


> No. Low German natively has both sounds /s/ and /z/. Low German speakers have do problems with distinguishing the two.



I meant North Germans when speaking "Hochdeutsch". I rarely hear an /s/ for an ß or ss.  I only hear it in the case of final obstruent devoicing.


----------



## Shiratori99

Frank78 said:


> Not quite. Final obstruent devoicing occurs at the end of each syllable. Ma-sern but Mas-ke.



I can't think of a native word where S is pronounced as /z/ when not followed by a vowel.


----------



## Frank78

Shiratori99 said:


> I can't think of a native word where S is pronounced as /z/ when not followed by a vowel.



Your explanation seems to be valid too. Perhaps two ways of explaining the same phenomenon.

By the way, neither Maske nor Masern are native German words.


----------



## ger4

Frank78 said:


> I meant North Germans when speaking "Hochdeutsch". I rarely hear an /s/ for an ß or ss. I only hear it in the case of final obstruent devoicing.


 Would that mean we pronounce -ss- and -ß- as /z/ except in syllable-final position?

Edit: Looking for a rule of thumb, I wonder if we could put it like this:

In Standard German, (single) *s* is pronounced:
/z/ word-initially when followed by a vowel, and intervocalic
/*ʃ */ word-initially when followed by t or p
/s/ in all other cases (and in some loanwords such as... Service)

*ß* and *ss *are always pronounced /s/

This is quite interesting...


----------



## Frank78

Holger2014 said:


> Would that mean we pronounce -ss- and -ß- as /z/ except in syllable-final position?



Yes but I won't tell you how you pronounce, just how I perceive it. 

I only have some acquaintances in Oldenburg and Hamburg so my knowledge is not that great. So just out of curiosity how do you pronounce "Klö*ß*e" or "So*ß*e". I constantly hear /z/ there?


----------



## ger4

Interesting, yes... I've heard _Klöße_ and _Soße/Sauce_ pronounced with /z/ but apart from that I can only think of _Diskussion_ where you often hear a non-standard voiced /z/. If this only occured in loanwords it would be easier to understand - but _Klöße_...


----------



## berndf

Frank78 said:


> I meant North Germans when speaking "Hochdeutsch". I rarely hear an /s/ for an ß or ss. I only hear it in the case of final obstruent devoicing.


I am not quite sure what you mean.

Systematic voicing on intervocalic /s/ is a trait of some Middle-German accents (de He*ss*e babbele so) but not of Northern German.


----------



## berndf

Holger2014 said:


> Disku*ss*ion


I normally hear [ʂ] [ɕ] in _Diskuschjoun_, but not [z].


Holger2014 said:


> If this only occured in loanwords it would be easier to understand - but _Klöße_...


Well, all words with _ß_ are loanwords in Low German.


----------



## ger4

berndf said:


> I normally hear [ʂ] [ɕ] in _Diskuschjoun_, but not [z].
> 
> Well, all words with _ß_ are loanwords in Low German.


Yes, but I was thinking of Standard German with a northern accent...


----------



## berndf

Holger2014 said:


> Yes, but I was thinking of Standard German with a northern accent...


On second thought, _-schj- _[ɕj] can be assimilated to [ʒʒ] or [ʑʑ] (_Diskuschschoun_). This can of course radiate a speaker's High German pronunciation. If is then a peculiarity of [sj].


----------



## berndf

Shiratori99 said:


> I think the S in the middle of a word is only pronounced as /z/ when it's followed by a vowel. See Masern (/z/) and Maske (/s/).


I think you are right. A better description would be: <s> is pronounced [z] word-initially and inter-vocalically.


----------



## perpend

Shiratori99 said:


> Also there are some exceptions, like Sex (/s/) and derived words.



I've heard "sex" pronounced with the "z" sound in Bavaria. It comes out sounding quite "zexy" (I've even heard that.)


----------



## wandle

wandle said:


> So for the non-native speaker, aiming at standard _Hochdeutsch_, is there any need to distinguish _*s*_ from _*ß*_?





berndf said:


> Yes. S=/z/ and ß=/s/ and ss=/s/ as well except at the end of the word where all are /s/.


Sorry, what I meant to ask was: Is there any need to distinguish final _*s*_ from _*ß*_?


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> in derived words like_ außen _the original _ß _is still present


 That is a very clever remark.  If the final s of 'Haus' were originally  identical with that of 'aus', you would have to pronounce either 'ausen' (/z/) or 'Häußer' (/s/).  Together with 'außer, äußere, etc.', I think it is the only evidence left that the two sounds were originally different. There is a difference also in other Germanic languages (English: house vs. out, outer..).

@perpend
If sex is pronounced with /z/, the difference with 'sechs' would disappear.... But since in Bavaria the initial s before a vowel is pronounced like ß, the result would be quite the opposite with respect to the standard pronunciation:
6 = standard zex, Bavaria ßex
sex = standard ßex, Bavaria (you heard) zex.
Is it really like this?


----------



## perpend

Would't the best answer be that there isn't one?


----------



## Kajjo

perpend said:


> I've heard "sex" pronounced with the "z" sound in Bavaria. It comes out sounding quite "zexy" (I've even heard that.)


In Northern Germany I only know the words _Sex _and _Bumsen _pronounced with /z/ by some very old-fashioned, prudish females. This might be a conincidence, but I reckon by avoiding the sharp /s/ they try to take away some of the "felt" harshness of these words. 

In standard German _Sex_ is with /s/ and this is how I almost exclusively hear it.


----------



## Kajjo

wandle said:


> Sorry, what I meant to ask was: Is there any need to distinguish final _*s*_ from _*ß*_?


No, with regards to pronunciation not at all. I can't follow why these issues are dicussed here in such length and I believe it might be some Bavarian specialty I simply do not get?! 

In summary: In standard German you need to dinstinguish pronunciations /s/ and /z/. The letter "s" can be either. This might be a problem for non-natives and for some German dialect speakers.

The letter "ß" is always /s/. For learners of German, there is usually no problem associated to "ß".


----------



## perpend

I don't know. I'm neither a prude nor old-fashioned female, but "sex" als "zex" ausgesprochen, ist mir geläufig.


----------



## Kajjo

perpend said:


> I don't know. I'm neither a prude nor old-fashioned female, but "sex" als "zex" ausgesprochen, ist mir geläufig.


In German? In which region? Maybe some dialect form?


----------



## bearded

Kajjo said:


> _Bumsen _pronounced with /z/ by some very old-fashioned, prudish females


Do you really pronounce _bumßen _in Standard German? It is new to me.

> kajjo to perpend < In which region?
See #34 above.


----------



## berndf

wandle said:


> Sorry, what I meant to ask was: Is there any need to distinguish final _*s*_ from _*ß*_?


Phonologically, not any more. After the two sounds had merged, the spelling changed sometimes (uz > aus, daz > das, etc.). The reason why it has continued to exist at the end of a word is mainly because it matters in inflected word Forms. E.g. it doesn't matter in _Stoß_ but in matters in the plural _Stöße_.


----------



## berndf

bearded man said:


> sex = standard ßex, Bavaria (you heard) zex.
> Is it really like this?


By a native Bavarian? Unlikely but possible, if the speaker hypercorrected. Otherwise, if he meat Munich by "in Bavaria", the likelihood is very high that he has heard it from a non-native. The city is the prime target of internal migration within Germany.


----------

