# Double causative and case markers for the "causer" and the "causee"



## Nino83

Hello everyone. 

I know that it's possible in Turkish to use a double (or even triple) causative, for example "Pişirttirmek = to ask someone to make someone else cook something". 
I'm wondering if it's possible to explicit all the causers and the agent and which is the right case. 

For example: John asked Mike to make Paul cook a plate of soup. 

Can John, Mike and Paul be expressed in this sentence? Which is the case for the causeer (John), the causee/causeer (Mike) and the causee/agent (Paul)?  

Thank you


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## Rallino

"Mike" cannot be expressed in the sentence with _pişirttirmek_.

John asked Mike to make Paul cook a plate of soup. = John, Mike'tan Paul'e bir tabak çorba pişirtmesini istedi.

Or: _John, Paul'e bir tabak çorba pişirttirdi._ = John got someone to make Paul cook a plate of soup.


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## Nino83

Thank you, Rallino.
So, in the causative construction the "causee" takes the dative case, while in the first sentence, the verb "istemek" takes the ablative case, right?


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## Rallino

It can also be in the genitive case if there is no ambiguity in the context.

John, Mike'ın Paul'e bir tabak çorba pişirtmesini istedi. = John asked/wanted Mike to make Paul prepare a plate of soup.

This sentence can also, in theory, mean that John wished for this to happen but never actually put it into words, as "istedi" can both mean "to want something to happen" or "to ask someone to do something".


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## Nino83

Rallino said:


> This sentence can also, in theory, mean that John wished for this to happen but never actually put it into words, as "istedi" can both mean "to want something to happen" or "to ask someone to do something".


Thank you for clarifing this. 
I thought that there was something strange, because when you have two "causee" marked with the same case and only one double causative verb, the sentence is ambiguous, unless there were some fixed word order of this type, first causee -> second causee.
Now that you told me that it's not possible to express both causees, it's all right.


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## Nino83

Hi, Rallino. 
Is it possible, and common, to express also the first causee with this construction, "pronoun + vesvtasiyle" (by means of)?
I found this sentence in this article: 

Osman Sema-ya   *ben-im vasvtasiyle* Turhan-v öp-*tür-t*-tü
Osman Sema-DAT - *I-1SG by means of* - Turhan-ACC kiss-*CS-CS*-PST
‘Osman had Sema kiss Turhan by means of me.’


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## Rallino

Osman Sema'ya benim vasıtamla Turhan'ı öptürdü.

Yes, this is possible. (Totally unidiomatic, but I assume we're dealing purely with the grammar here.) Only one causative is necessary.


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## Nino83

Thanks, Rallino. 
Yes, we're speaking about grammar but it's interesting to know if these sentences are idiomatic.  
So double causatives are normal, common and idiomatic but the expression of both "causees" (the intermediary and the agent) is unidiomatic, have I understood well?


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## Rallino

I mean we would express it differently. Something like:

Osman, Turhan'ı Sema'ya öptürme işini bana yaptırdı.

(lit.: Osman made me do the job of getting Sema to kiss Turhan.)

That's:

[Osman-*Subj] [*Turhan-*Acc] [*Sema-*Dat] * [öp-*CS-noun form]  [*iş-*3rd pers. Poss.-buffer-Acc] * [bana (*1st pers. Dat*)]  [yap-*CS-simple past.] *


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