# in the midst of the sea



## Casquilho

May you please help me to translate the locution "in the midst (or heart) of the sea", e. g. in the phrase

"Ulysses is lost in the midst of the sea" = _Ulixes _[?] _perditus est_.


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## rustymason

How about in the middle of the sea?

Ulixes in media maris perditus est.


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## Scholiast

salue!

With all respect to rustymason, I think it may be a year or two since he studied Latin.

_medius_ (-_a_, _-um_) functions as an adjective, and must therefore congrue in NGC with its noun.

"in medio mari" therefore would be more strictly correct (_mare_ has the ablative _mari_).


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## Peano

And what about *in medio maris*. The more literal translation, the better.
Anyway, _in the midst of_ may well be translated into _inter_:
_Ulixes *inter mare* perditus est_.


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## Scholiast

Greetings once again.

With regret, I must dissent from Peano's thoughts (# 4) in two respects.

First, I know no instance of _medius_ being used in this may with a genitive, and can find none comparable in L&S. In Virgil and Ovid there are occasional uses with an ablative, such as "medius scopulo consedit" and the like ("he sat down in the middle of the rock"), and even with the dative (L&S cite Velleius for "Megaram, Corintho Athenisque mediam urbem" , for "a city [half-way] between Corinth and Athens" - but Vell. Paterc. hardly registers as a model of prose style anyway).

Secondly, "the more literal translation, the better": as a rule of thumb, maybe there is something to be said for this, but when it comes to matters of idiom, this cannot be regarded as a safe guide - especially when translating from a language so heavily idiomatic as English.


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## CapnPrep

Scholiast said:


> First, I know no instance of _medius_ being used in this may with a genitive, and can find none comparable in L&S.


There are a couple in the subsection on the noun _medium_ (II.A.1): 

in medio aedium sedentem (Liv. 1, 57, 9)
medio montium et paludum (Tac. _Ann._ 1, 64)
And for what it's worth, there are two occurrences of the phrase _in medio maris_ in the Vulgate, at Ez 26:5 and Ez 27:32.


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## Scholiast

Greetings, Sirs, Ladies

Thank you to CapnPrep, whose scholarship and wisdom is always a wonder. Liv. 1.57.9 contravenes my original assertion, and I bow at once to his superior knowledge.

In Tac. _Ann_. 1.64, however the sense is of "between", rather than "in the middle of...".

And with all respect, the Vulgate - especially Ezra - is hardly relevant.


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## CapnPrep

Scholiast said:


> And with all respect, the Vulgate - especially Ezra - is hardly relevant.


It's Ezekiel; does that change anything for you?  Actually, upon further examination, the Vulgate contains six examples of the more classical structure _in medio mari_ (Ex 14:16, Prv 30:19, Mt 14:24, etc.), also favored by some wretched heathens:

venari autem rete iaculo in medio mari (Pl. _As._ 1.1.84) 
nunc eram plane in medio             mari (Cic. _Att._ 5.12)


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## Scholiast

Geetings once again

CapnPrep, with his customary scholarship, adduces two passages 





> venari autem rete iaculo in medio mari (Pl. _As._ 1.1.84) nunc eram plane in medio             mari (Cic. _Att._ 5.12)



which exactly illustrate my first point, namely that in idiomatic classical Latin _medius_ will be treated as an adjective in grammatical agreement with its congruent noun, _medio mari_.

(Yes, of course it was Ezekiel, sorry for that stupid error on my part, but "in medio maris" even in the Vulgate hardly counts, surely?)


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## Peano

Well, thanks to CapnPrep for citing those instances from Livius, Tacitus, and Ezekiel. There is more Latin than classical Latin, guys.

Secondly, "the more literal translation, the better" is to me a safe guide because I do not speak a natural idiom-ful English, but rather a sort of international idiom-free English.


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