# maman est morte



## JBPARK

“_Aujourd’hui, maman est morte.”

Hi,
_
I'm trying to get a more accurate grasp on the meaning of "maman" that appears in the opening line of Camus's L'Etranger,
as I want to see how well some of the Corean translations that have been published so far dovetail with the logic and nuance of the original.

More specifically, I want to get some insights on whether the meaning of the term, "maman", leans towards the distanced, sometimes overbearing "mother" or towards the rather comforting and soothing "mom" or "mommy".

Thanks.


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## Nicomon

Hello JBPARK,

I would definitely say : comforting and soothing "mom" or "mommy".


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## greatbear

Well, there are many people who do address their mother as "mother" and not "mom, mommy". Whereas in France, "maman" is the usual form of address by a child to his/her mother: one does not address one's mother as "mère". So I don't think there could be any answer to your question. If I were to translate Camus, I'd go for "mother"; in many other novels, I'd go for "mom" or "mommy". It all depends on the kind of language and context used in the rest of the work.


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## orlando09

If I was translating it, I would say "Mum" (as a British speaker) - in American English "Mom". In the UK not many people refer to their mother as "Mother", and "Mummy" is usually used by young children (which the character in l'Etranger is not), or sometimes upper class adults. I would say "Maman"  it is fairly neutral (and not just used by children) and neither implies someone especially overbearing or soothing, though definitely more the latter.


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## velisarius

There is a difficulty in English in finding a suitable term for words like "maman". In English unfortunately there is a class difference in how you address your parents, which is probably not found in some other languages. For me, Mum is rather lower class usage and very informal. "Mother" would be more middle class, but perhaps "my mother" is a bit more neutral and would not sound odd in this case. In speaking to someone not in my family I would never say "Mum", but "my mother". I hope this is a help.


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## Nicomon

JBPARK was asking for the meaning of the term. I just gave my francophone opinion. So either "mom/mum" or "my mother" but not "mother".

I agree that "mommy" is childish.


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## Outsider

I agree very much with Orlando's post above. If I were translating Camus into English, I would try to find out how people of Camus' social standing addressed their mothers in the early 20th century. I suspect that "mother" would be normal for this period (not so much today). But keep in mind that the French word shows a greater degree of familiarity than "mère", without necessarily being tender, or childish like "mummy/mommy". "Today, mother died."


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## Jasmine tea

It seems to me that "maman" is simply the one word (the usual one) used to call one's mother in French. Using any other word would have needed thought and interpretation to see why that word was chosen by the author (What is much more shocking is the rest of the sentence "Aujourd'hui maman est morte, _ou peut-être hier je ne sais pas"_).
Maybe in Corean there is not one obvious and unique word to render this "maman"...?


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## Omelette

Interesting – well it is to me,  even if it isn’t quite the question -- that according to a piece in the New Yorker – the first three translators of this novel all translated the line as ‘Mother died today.’ (Which is what I would have gone for). And the only alternative translation cited is ‘Maman died today.’


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## orlando09

I agree that "Mother" would have been more common in 1942, when the book was published, than now, however Camus deliberately used the informal Maman, so I think I would still go with Mum. He could have said "ma mère" (possibly just Mère, which I don't think is impossible, just old-fashioned, no?). I don't know what background Velisarius comes from but I disagree that "Mum" is "rather lower class", though it's true people might choose to say "my mother" if speaking to someone they don't know well, especially in a more formal situation. However my background would be described as, I suppose, middle middle class English, and I went to a one of the top few British universities, and "Mum" is what pretty much everyone I know calls their mother. An adult calling their Mother "Mummy" makes me think of Prince Charles or someone, and "Mother" sounds a bit  formal and old-fashioned to my ears, though there's nothing "wrong" with either, just a matter of family convention. And what is called for in this narration is the term a person uses when naming their mother, so "Mother" or "Mum", not "my mother".


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## orlando09

Omelette said:


> Interesting – well it is to me,  even if it isn’t quite the question -- that according to a piece in the New Yorker – the first three translators of this novel all translated the line as ‘Mother died today.’ (Which is what I would have gone for). And the only alternative translation cited is ‘Maman died today.’



Yes, it's interesting, but if they were the first three, I guess they were in about the fifties or something, when indeed more people would have called their mothers "Mother", than is the case now. But I guess it may help to keep the feel of the period, as opposed to Mum which perhaps sounds more modern.


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## Omelette

Actually, the first ‘Mother died today’ came from Martin Gilbert in 1946. And Joseph Laredo was still translating it that way in 1982. ‘Maman died today’ made its appearance in 1988.
 ‘Mum (or ‘Mom’) died today’ sounds to me, perhaps too modern, as you say, but also rather childish, and could make the line sound comic. But that’s just an opinion of course. And as we none of us have to translate it for real…..


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## orlando09

It certainly doesn't sound "comic" to me, but I am persuaded by the idea of keeping the 1940s context that maybe "Mother" is best. But in my opinion it should be "Mother died today", and not "Mother is dead today". I don't really see any need to retain "Maman" in a translation; no more reason than, for example, to insist on keeping "Monsieur" in a translated text instead of translating to Mr, just because the action is in France.


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## wildan1

Nicomon said:


> JBPARK was asking for the meaning of the term.  I just gave my francophone opinion.   So either "mom/mum" or "my mother" but not "mother".
> 
> I agree that "momy" is childish.


Yes, _mummy/mommy_ is indeed only used by children in most cases.

Well, in AE it would only be _mommy/mom--not mum(my)._ This is one instance where Canadian English is closer to BE than AE.

_Mother_, on the other hand, is indeed not an unusual term for Americans to address -- and talk about-- their mother. It may sounds cold and formal to some, or class-bound to BE-speakers. But in middle class families in the US Midwest, where I come from, it is fairly commonly used, and respectful.

_Mother died today_ would be a very plausible way to start this novel in AE.


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## Outsider

orlando09 said:


> I agree that "Mother" would have been more common in 1942, when the book was published, than now, however Camus deliberately used the informal Maman, so I think I would still go with Mum.


Wait a moment, I thought the point was that "maman" is _not_ necessarily informal... It's just as neutral in French as "mother" would have been in 1942 English. 
I agree that the word order "Mother died today" sounds better, especially given the rest of the sentence, quoted by Jasmine Tea. "Mother died today, or maybe yesterday, I don't know."


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## Itisi

Outsider said:


> Wait a moment, I thought the point was that "maman" is _not_ necessarily informal... It's just as neutral in French as "mother" would have been in 1942 English.
> I agree that the word order "Mother died today" sounds better, especially given the rest of the sentence, quoted by Jasmine Tea. "Mother died today, or maybe yesterday, I don't know."



Yes, the French say, 'votre maman' even if they don't know you, or her, from Adam.  'Mother died' sounds just right.


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## Nicomon

Well, I stil prefer "Mum" or perhaps "Mama". As seen googling (don't know whether or not those are official translations) : 





> *Mum died today*. Or maybe it was yesterday, I don’t know. I got a telegram from the nursing home : ‘Mother dead STOP Funeral Tomorrow STOP Best wishes STOP. It doesn’t prove anything. Maybe it was yesterday.
> 
> *Mama died today*. Or yesterday maybe, I don't know. I got a telegram from the home: 'Mother deceased. Funeral Tomorrow. Faithfully yours.' That doesn't mean anything. Maybe it was yesterday.


 Also found googling: 


> In terms of recorded usage of related words in English, *mama* is from *1707*, *mum *is from *1823*.


 So... well before 1942. Then again, the second quote that I wrote in blue looks like it could be a typo; I think the translator left it in French as *Maman*. 

I personally find "Mother" very cold. It sounds as though Camus had written: _Mère est morte, aujourd'hui / Aujourd'hui, mère est morte. _
The French original is this : 





> "Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas. J'ai reçu un télégramme de l'asile: _Mère décédée. Enterrement demain. Sentiments distingués._ Cela ne veut rien dire. C'était peut-être hier".



Why anyone would want to translate both _maman_ and _mère_ as "_mother_" is beyond my understanding. I wouldn't.

I added "_my_" to _mother _earlier because it didn't sound as cold to my ears as _mother_ by itself. 

P.S. : I corrected my typo in post #6... mommy (with 2 m)


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## lucas-sp

Amusingly, I just came across this blog post yesterday: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/05/camus-translation.html I think Omelette referenced this post as well.

It gives a very good overview of A) the history of translating the sentence and B) the failures of all translations to capture the nuance of the phrase.

I agree with the post that the line is difficult to translate because "maman" falls in-between "mother" and "mom/mommy" in English. "Mother" is too formal - think of Cary Grant's "That... was Mother" in _North by Northwest_, for instance. I wonder if "mom" will become a possible solution to the problem in a few years; I know younger people are comfortable referring to each other's female parents as "your mom." Perhaps it will shift to a more intermediate position between "mother" and "mommy," allowing it to take over for "maman."


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## Itisi

Nicomon said:


> I personally find "Mother" very cold. Is sounds as though Camus had written: _Mère est morte, aujourd'hui / Aujourd'hui, mère est morte. _



Sorry to disagree with you, Nicomon.


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## Fred_C

Bonjour,

Je suis très étonné que personne n’ait penser à attirer l’attention sur la différence qu’il y a entre «maman» comme une façon d’appeler sa mère, et «maman» comme un substantif comme façon de PARLER DE sa mère à d’autres personnes.
Dire «maman» quand on adresse la parole à sa mère est quasiment l’unique façon de faire et tout le monde fait ainsi, les enfants comme les adultes.
Mais ici, Camus (ou Meursault, son personnage) ne s’adresse pas à sa mère, il parle de sa mère à une tierce personne (le lecteur, je crois).
Et dans ce cas, les usages sont TRÈS DIFFÉRENTS : la manière la plus courante est de dire «ma mère», et c’est ainsi que tout le monde fait, à l’exception des enfants, ainsi que de certains adultes de la haute société, (des aristocrates, souvent...) en tout cas, c’est le cas en 2012. Je ne sais pas si c’était déjà le cas en 1942.
Pour moi,
*Soit Camus infantilise son personnage Meursault, parce qu’il est affecté de la mort de sa mère et qu’il tient à la considérer comme lorsqu’il était enfant, (Il n’est pas rare de constater chez les adultes français, qu’ils  parlent de leur mère en disant «maman» au lieu de «ma mère» peu après le  décès de celle-ci)

*Soit il lui prête une certaine classe sociale.


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## wildan1

_Mère est morte_ would be more like _Mater died. _


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## Itisi

Fred, il me semble que Meursault se parle plutôt à lui-même.  En tout cas, Camus ne lui prête pas une certaine classe sociale, il s'agit d'un milieu modeste, si mes souvenirs sont bons.


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## Nicomon

Itisi said:


> Sorry to disagree with you, Nicomon.


 You don't have to agree. 

My point simply is that in my opinion, whatever it's worth : _"Mother died today"_ is closer to _« (Ma) mère est morte aujourd'nui » _
than to Camus'/Meursault : _« Aujourd'hui, maman est morte » _= (literally) _"Today, mama died".
_
I agree with every single word that Fred wrote. It makes me think of Forrest Gump, who says "_My mama_". 
Hence my suggesting "_Mama_"... though I'm OK with _"mum"_, too.  

I'm off this thread.


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## Itisi

It seems that _on the whole_ originally English-speaking foreros would choose 'mother', while originally French speaking ones prefer something like 'mom'


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## velisarius

In reply to Fred_C's post, I don't think Mersault is meant to be adressing a third person, not even the reader. Seen this way, "maman" is just the word he uses when he thinks about his mother. I thought the whole point of the novel was that Mersault was not affected by his mother's death, at least not as most people are. So Camus is far from infantilising Mersault. He calls her maman in his narrative because that's what he always called her. I would quarrel with the translation "mum" because it is very specifically British English.


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## Outsider

lucas-sp said:


> Amusingly, I just came across this blog post yesterday: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/05/camus-translation.html I think Omelette referenced this post as well.


Thanks, but I couldn't be bothered past:


> Gilbert translated the book’s title as “The Outsider” and rendered the first  line as “Mother died today.” Simple, succinct, and incorrect.


If there's one thing this thread shows it's that the translation is _debatable_ -- as are most translations. Anyone who calls a perfectly decent translation (it seems to be the one with the most votes so far in the thread) point blank "incorrect" is just being dogmatic.



Nicomon said:


> Do you really call your mother... "mother"? Would Meursault have, if he had spoken English?


Several English speakers in this thread have replied yes to both questions.



Nicomon said:


> Again, I find it odd to see "Mother" twice, to translate an original French sentence that has both « _maman _» and « _mère_ » in it.


It's not in the same sentence, though. The words appear in different sentences, only one of which is by the narrator. The one with "mère" is a quote from a telegram, if I remember well.

Anyway, perhaps we should all keep in mind that the ultimate goal here is to produce a translation into Korean.


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## guillaumedemanzac

It is obviously written like that for maximum shock effect so I don't think the abbreviations/familiar names give that.
*My mother died today. Or perhaps yesterday, I don't know*.
All the others (Mum, Mummy, Mom, Mother etc) imply some kind of interaction has happened between the two of them; whereas obviously none has!
*My mother* is cold and factual.
guillaume


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## Itisi

CHAPITRE 2

       Le lendemain de l'enterrement, un samedi, Meursault va se baigner et rencontre Marie Cardona, une jeune  femme qui a travaillé dans son bureau. Le soir, ils vont au cinéma          voir un film avec Fernandel puis ils passent la nuit chez Meursault. Il ne semble en rien affecté par la mort de sa mère, que Marieapprend incidemment.
       L'après-midi du dimanche, Meursault contemple le spectacle de la rue. Le chapitre se          termine ainsi: "J'ai pensé que c'était toujours un dimanche de tiré, que maman était maintenant enterrée, que j'allais reprendre mon travail et que, somme toute, il n'y avait rien de changé."

Meursault does not feel very much about anything.  He is a 'stranger' to himself, alienated from his feelings, indifferent to most things, it seems.  He did not have a cosy relationship with his mother.  He had put her in an old people's home and is very little affected by her death.

(I'm going to bed now - I am! )


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## BEEKEEPER

Fred_C said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> Je suis très étonné que personne n’ait penser à attirer l’attention sur la différence qu’il y a entre «maman» comme une façon d’appeler sa mère, et «maman» comme un substantif comme façon de PARLER DE sa mère à d’autres personnes.
> Dire «maman» quand on adresse la parole à sa mère est quasiment l’unique façon de faire et tout le monde fait ainsi, les enfants comme les adultes.
> Mais ici, Camus (ou Meursault, son personnage) ne s’adresse pas à sa mère, il parle de sa mère à une tierce personne (le lecteur, je crois).
> Et dans ce cas, les usages sont TRÈS DIFFÉRENTS : la manière la plus courante est de dire «ma mère», et c’est ainsi que tout le monde fait, à l’exception des enfants, ainsi que de certains adultes de la haute société, (des aristocrates, souvent...) en tout cas, c’est le cas en 2012. Je ne sais pas si c’était déjà le cas en 1942.
> Pour moi,
> *Soit Camus infantilise son personnage Meursault, parce qu’il est affecté de la mort de sa mère et qu’il tient à la considérer comme lorsqu’il était enfant, (Il n’est pas rare de constater chez les adultes français, qu’ils  parlent de leur mère en disant «maman» au lieu de «ma mère» peu après le  décès de celle-ci)
> 
> *Soit il lui prête une certaine classe sociale.



Tout à fait d'accord avec Fred_C.


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## florence a

Je pense que c'est presque un monologue intérieur, il n'est pas en train de parler d'elle à quelqu'un, et que c'est pourquoi "maman" est employé.


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## orlando09

re. the post by Fred_C:

In the context of the book I suppose he is talking to himself as much as anything - it is his thoughts we are hearing. He is not knowingly narrating to an audience, I don't think.


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## orlando09

Nicomon said:


> You don't have to agree.
> 
> My point simply is that in my opinion, whatever it's worth : _"Mother died today"_ is closer to _« (Ma) mère est morte aujourd'nui » _
> than to Camus'/Meursault : _« Aujourd'hui, maman est morte » _= (literally) _"Today, mama died"._.



Not sure about "Mama", which to me sounds a bit posh for someone from a modest background like Meursault


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## orlando09

velisarius said:


> I would quarrel with the translation "mum" because it is very specifically British English.



So? It would depend what audience the translation is aimed at. "Mom" would have the same problem because specifically American, in that case


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## orlando09

Nicomon said:


> Again, I find it odd to see "Mother" twice, to translate an original French sentence that has both « _maman _» and « _mère_ » in it.



That's a good point - the original has the informal, affectionate word and then the more formal one in the telegram


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## orlando09

guillaumedemanzac said:


> It is obviously written like that for maximum shock effect so I don't think the abbreviations/familiar names give that.
> *My mother died today. Or perhaps yesterday, I don't know*.
> All the others (Mum, Mummy, Mom, Mother etc) imply some kind of interaction has happened between the two of them; whereas obviously none has!guillaume



I assumed, based on what my French teacher said a long time ago, that yes, this opening is very cold - he can't even remember when his mother died, he's as unaffected by it as that. However on rereading I see this is not necessarily the case. His elderly mother was in a home. He has just received a telegram saying she has died. He therefore is not completely sure if this happened the same day or the day before, as the telegram doesn't say.


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## wildan1

_Mama,_ as Forrest Gump might say, is an old-fashioned child's name for a mother. And in AE it's pronounced _MAH-muh_, and it is definitely not posh!

Remember, Nico, Forrest Gump was mentally retarded and from the deep US South. In that movie, he speaks in that southern dialect as a child might do.

You're not the only stubborn one--I'm sticking with _Mother_. Camus' Meursault was neither retarded nor from the US South.

If the novel is translated into Korean, let's let the OP decide!


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## Nicomon

wildan1 said:


> You're not the only stubborn one--I'm sticking with _Mother_. Camus was neither retarded nor from the US South.
> 
> If the novel is translated into Korean, let's let the OP decide!


 Of course, it's JBPARK's decision to make.  But he did ask whether the French was closer to the distanced "mother" and the comforting/soothing "mom".   He wrote : 





> I want to see how well some of the Corean translations that have been published so far dovetail with the logic and nuance of the original.



Granted, I gave the Forrest Gump example, but I honestly thought that "_mama_" - which to me sounds more childish than retarded, is heard in many different languages and has almost the same sound  as _maman _- was a good compromise.  If you're saying that "mother" can be used to mean both distanced/overbearing and comforting/soothing... I'm done arguing.  So let's agree to disagree.


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## orlando09

Don't forget  I'm from the UK. Here "Mama" (pronounced muh-MAH), sounds both old-fashioned and posh. But I take the point you were thinking of the US.


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## janpol

"un substantif comme façon de PARLER DE sa mère à d’autres personnes" > oui, mais pas seulement pour parler de SA mère
"où est Pierre ?" "Il est parti se promener avec sa maman" : cette phrase n'est pas dite par le grand frère car il dirait "avec Maman", elle n'est pas dite par le père car il dirait "avec ma femme", "avec Marie", elle est probablement dite par un invité étranger à la famille qui considèrerait que "avec sa mère" provoquerait une certaine distanciation qu'il se refuse
je ne pense pas que le terme "Maman" infantilise Meursault : d'abord, c'est à lui-même qu'il parle, ensuite, Camus ne pouvait pas utiliser le même mot que le texte du télégramme


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## JBPARK

There is quite a colorful selection of words in Corean that could mean "mother" or "mum/mom"; better yet, the linguistic mechanism base on which Corean words are formed actually allows more leeway for its users to tweak the structure of an existing word to give it a subtle change of nuance or feel than is the case for other languages; it's something about the language some Coreans pride themselves on, especially when it comes to artistic writings, but at the same time, by equal degree, it's where the language's greatest weakness lies, as each word has a greater chance of failing to achieve more distinctive semantic lucidity. If the nuance of "maman" indeed falls somewhere between two extremes: cold, authoritative mother and warm cute cuddly mommy, as some have indicated in earlier posts, I am sensing I am getting into a whole different ball game here. I can definitely think of a couple of Corean words at the moment that fall into that grey area but it's too daunting a task to rush into any decision since the opening line and the word "maman" seem to having an overarching effect on the entire tone of the novel. I may as well read the entire novel one more time to get a better read on the character's wavelength (or Camus's, rather) when he said "Maman est morte". 
Merci bien.


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## ddppger

I agree with Itisi , mother died today is better .


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## Outsider

I like "My mother died today" as well, and it has the advantage of allowing a distinction between the word used by the narrator (_maman_) and the word which appeared in the telegram (_mère_). The latter could be translated simply as "mother" with no article, which I believe does sound colder.



JBPARK said:


> If the nuance of "maman" indeed falls somewhere  between two extremes: cold, authoritative mother and warm cute cuddly  mommy, as some have indicated in earlier posts, I am sensing I am  getting into a whole different ball game here.


Not so much cold  and authoritative, but it does appear to cover the full  range from neutral to warm. Out of context, it's quite ambiguous. I  imagine that Korean words tend to be more specific and marked. On the  other hand, in the novel Meursault is emotionally detached from  everything, including his mother, so in context this first sentence was  probably meant to reflect that indifference. I would look for a word  that is _appropriate_ for a son to use regarding his mother, but  otherwise neutral: neither hostile, nor especially deferential, nor  overtly affectionate.


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## Béla Upőlan

I remember having a similar discussion when I was in Poland for two weeks as a trainee teacher. I was there with a colleague, and our Polish supervisor asked us how one usually refers to one's mother when speaking to others. And quite obvisouly, my fellow trainee and I disagreed. 
While I answered that it is childish to say "(ma) maman" when talking to a stranger --and that it shouldn't be taught to the Polish students--, my colleague said she would always refer to her mother that way, and that it was quite common. What's the conclusion? Even today, whether you consider childish to say "maman" or not depends very much on your education and background.


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## djweaverbeaver

Outsider said:


> I like "My mother died today" as well, and it has the advantage of allowing a distinction between the word used by the narrator (_maman_) and the word which appeared in the telegram (_mère_). The latter could be translated simply as "mother" with no article, which I believe does sound colder.
> 
> Not so much cold  and authoritative, but it does appear to cover the full  range from neutral to warm. Out of context, it's quite ambiguous. I  imagine that Korean words tend to be more specific and marked. On the  other hand, in the novel Meursault is emotionally detached from  everything, including his mother, so in context this first sentence was  probably meant to reflect that indifference. I would look for a word  that is _appropriate_ for a son to use regarding his mother, but  otherwise neutral: neither hostile, nor especially deferential, nor  overtly affectionate.



I personally don't like the use of _Maman _in the English text.  First off, if one isn't familiar with French, then one wouldn't necessarily know what it means.  One could just assume that it is someone's name, although after reading a little further in the text, I'm sure it becomes clear to whom he is referring.  Furthermore, it doesn't mean that an English speaker will readily understand the nuances that the French term carries.

If find it interesting that the British terms carries such class distinctions with them.  This is all but absent in American English.  Ours tend to be more area/region-specific.

For what it's worth,  I think that *Mother *is the best suggestion in a long list of approximate translations.  It is somewhat distant yet it can also be (mildly) affectionate.  It is not uncommon to hear older people refer to their mothers as "Mother", which they do in a very loving and tender way, even if to me it seems quite standoffish when I hear it.  All the other terms are either too modern, too informal, or too regional.


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## Itisi

Welcome, ddppgr (not just because you agree with me!)!  We dont always go on and on like this! 

I don't think 'my mother' is quite suitable, because Meursault is talking to himself, or perhaps writing a diary.

djweaverbeaver has just reminded me how my father, who dearly loved his mother, would refer to her as 'mother'. So 'mother' can be cold or warm or neutral!


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## djweaverbeaver

I think that it's safe to say that most of the native English speakers on here dislike _Maman_.   I'll be sticking to _Mother_; it's worked well all this time, and I still have not found a convincing enough reason to change it moving forward.


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## Nicomon

I do agree that_ mother_ works better than_ maman. _All I'm saying is that I still prefer _mum/mom_ - which both existed at the time the novel was written - or the nearly international_ mama_ as a closer equivalent to the French as I understand and use it. I don't expect anybody to agree - you made it clear that you don't - but I can't help it. I just can't find "_Mother_" as affectionate.

So I'll take it that if Camus had written: _*Aujourd'hui, papa est mort*... _you guys would be perfectly fine with a translation such as :
*Father died today *(colder sounding to my ears, with a changed order of words and no comma).

While I would be tempted to keep the word order and translate it as :_ 
Today, dad died_ (though I'm not sure I like the alliteration) or the older, perhaps a little posh : _Today, papa died. _

If you agree with_ father, _then OK for _mother. _
But if you don't think that either _papa _or_ dad _would sound odd in context, then logically... in my opinion you should also agree with _mama/mum._


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## Itisi

I promise this will be my last post on this thread! 

To me,  the M word chosen_ doesn't have to be_ 'affectionate' or 'comforting'. I don't find 'mother' cold. And I like the flow of 'Mother died today' and find its flatness appropriate here...


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## greatbear

I find it suprising however that a francophone speaker is bent on disregarding most anglophone opinions here about the choice of the appropriate English word: I reiterate, "mother" is not cold at all, and I agree with pretty much everything that Itisi said in post no. 62.


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## orlando09

I agree with what Itisi said in post #54 about the word order. I am persuaded by the posts here that Mother isn't necessarily cold, and might have been the choice if Camus was an English writer in 1942, but on the other hand I also agree that Mum makes sense (and existed at the time: http://www.show.me.uk/site/show/STO250.html) and provides contrast with the wording of the telegram (which could also, possibly, be done by changing the first word to "My mother").


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## Jasmine tea

I have followed this thread with a lot of interest. And I did not contribute to it more (sorry Nicomon) because I am not sure there is any *right *answer.

Anything having to do with "Mother" (shall it be using the words Maman or mom, mama etc.) is a touchy issue. This is usually the first word a human being pronounces in his life. And usually one's mother is the very first person a human being will be communicating with, relating to, recognizing in the environment of one's life.
And in some ways, this very first communication and understanding of the world could well be the reflection of how one relates to the world, to other human beings etc.

This is the whole story of "L'Étranger" of Camus, it seems to me. And the main character is condemned because of the way he relates / reacts (or does not enough openly affectionately relate / react to) others and especially to his mother, and to her death.

I intended to reread it this week-end. (I did not but certainly will as soon as...). This very first sentence seems to hold in itself the entire story, book... Isn't it so?


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## greatbear

Jasmine tea said:


> This very first sentence seems to hold in itself the entire story, book... Isn't it so?



Yes, I do think so, too. It is also the most haunting sentence for me from the book: if one were not to read the rest of the book but just this sentence, one could imagine the rest of the story (it might be different: I mean the rest of the 'theme').


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## JBPARK

For me, as someone who's trying to find a good translation, it all gets down to the struggle (a very tough one) to find a suitable word that's multi-layered enough, in terms of nuance and meaning, that it cuts through the obvious dichotomy: comforting mom vs cold, mythic mother, and leaves readers hanging with that unidentifiable feeling, with which they will have to continue on with the story. I believe Camus intended the rejection of mother to work "in the service of" the very opposite, and it resonates throughout the entire novel for me.


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## velisarius

I think to translate "maman" here as "mum" is equivalent to translating "Madame Bovary" as "Mrs. Bovary" - not wrong but absurd.


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## lucas-sp

velisarius said:


> I think to translate "maman" here as "mum" is equivalent to translating "Madame Bovary" as "Mrs. Bovary" - not wrong but absurd.


Sorry, can you make an argument there?

Are you saying that we should translate "maman" as "mother" (and thus "Madame Bovary" as "Mistress Bovary") or "maman" as "maman" (and thus "Madame Bovary" as "Madame Bovary")? Huh?


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## Itisi

lucas-sp said:


> Except he also could have said "Aujourd'hui ma mère est morte," and that would have been "normal" too.



Indeed, he could have done so, if he had been talking to someone he didn't know; but he was talking to himself.  That is the difference, _not whether you love the person or not, but whom you are addressing!_  So you can't read into it more than is there!  Well, that's how I see it...

Actually, I have been wondering if Camus didn't deliberately make it ambiguous whether Meursault loved his mother or not...  So in fact, we are not meant to be able to answer that question! That is not what the novel is about anyway.

I haven't had the courage to go back through all the posts to check this out,  but I wonder if the difference of opinion around 'mother' is not to do  with BE versus AE...


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## Jasmine tea

Itisi said:


> Actually, I have been wondering if Camus didn't deliberately make it ambiguous whether Meursault loved his mother or not... So in fact, we are not meant to be able to answer that question! That is not what the novel is about anyway.



Or maybe the novel is about the degree of detachment which is acceptable in love, and to what extent too much detachment will make an alien of any human being... The question of humanity, it seems to me!
Humanity evolves and nowadays we certainly are more detached than a century ago... have we become like Camus' "Étranger"?!!!

As everyone here I am quite sensitive to translation matters and to the fact that one shall not betray the original words of an author.
But in this case, I am starting to think that no matter what word will be used to translate Maman (or even the solution consisting of keeping the French word), the sentence in itself will convey whatever it is that it conveys... The "idea" behind the word Mother (whichever word would be used) seems so strong and universal that it will speak for itself. Each reader will automatically translate the _idea _in his mind...


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## wildan1

Itisi said:


> I haven't had the courage to go through all the posts to check this out,  but I wonder if the difference of opinion around 'mother' is not to do  with BE versus AE...


Well, if you did read all the posts, you would see that the interpretation of _Mother _as a form of address is varied--some dismiss it as cold; others don't.

I don't, and I think it could be not only because I am a native speaker of AE, but also a generational difference. And I am… well over 40 years old.

As a small child I called my mother _mommy_. That changed at about age 6, when most boys moved from that term to something more mature. For me, it was either _mom_ or _mother_. I preferred calling her _mom_, but she only tolerated it. Her preference was for _mother_. I think that was frequently the case for kids in my day. _Mother_ to her was a dignified, respectful way to address your mother, and reflected nothing cold or resentful. It was what she preferred. That was from a  US midwestern woman from a modest middle class family. Nothing "posh"!

Hence my suggestion that back in the 1930s, saying _Mother died today_ has nothing but respect. Perhaps love, too--but you have to read the whole book and decide for yourself!


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## JBPARK

Having slept on the matter a little more after reading wildan's last post, I am slowly waking up to the realization that actually the Corean word for "mother" does also have more subtle nuance to it than just being cold and authoritative and mythical. It's pretty obvious that the language and the culture behind it are built more on the Confucius ideals than anything else, one of whose teachings would be having deep "respect" for parents rather than expressively "loving" them in a more of "rubbing-cheeks-against-each-other" sort of way; having said that, I can certainly imagine Coreans saying the word (certainly more often, nowadays) in a way that it reflects love and affection for their mothers along with the usual connotation of respect. I am sensing that the word's nuance is also evolving as the society adopts the western ideals more and more. That being the case, I can find myself getting more comfortable with the idea that "mother" could also be a good candidate for the translation.


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## Nicomon

OK, so may be "cold" was the wrong choice of words. I can admit that. 
But for all I know, if "_Mother_" was common in the 1930's/40's... I'm pretty sure that « _Mère _» was also said in some families with the same respect.

I maintain - because it was your initial question - that the *French* word « _maman_ » the way I, as a francophone, use it leans more towards "loving/affectionate" than "dignified/respectful". Respectful would be the (very) old fashioned « _Mère _» as Moon Palace confirmed, and as I tried to show with examples in one of my numerous  posts. 

Both words appear in the incipit. And I know that in Spanish and Italian, they used different words to make the "nuance". 
Namely *"Madre" *for the telegram in both versions, and *mamá *(Spanish) */ mamma* (Italian) to translate *« maman ». 

*That's why I thought that *mama *might have been a good compromise between _mother_ and _mom/mum_. 
Now if you want to translate both _Maman_ and _Mère_ as "_Mother_" or the equivalent word in Corean, that's your prerogative.


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## Dunlaying

Today , Mother is dead .

I feel it is designed to be cold and heartless .


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## DearPrudence

Hi and welcome to the forums, Dunlaying.

So you would go on as:
"Today, Mother is dead. Or maybe yesterday, I don't know"?
(original: _"_Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas.")


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## Dunlaying

Today , Mother is dead . Perhaps she was dead yesterday , who knows ?

In English , "Mother died today" is not hard hitting enough . I believe Camus wanted to make the reader feel uneasy from the kick-off .


Thank you for your welcome .


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## guillaumedemanzac

First words of L' Etranger by Camus  -- supposedly to show how aphasic Meursault was - see # 88 - a very cynical thing to say at the start - I don't know means I can't remember when she died !!!!! ?????

"Mother died"  (not "Mother is dead." - she is dead every day from that day on!!!!)

"Mother died today - or perhaps she died yesterday - I don't know/ I can't remember."


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## Itisi

Dunlaying said:


> Today, Mother is dead .


Yes, *guillaume*, perhaps she will resuscitate tomorrow, who knows... (I didn't expect this post to resuscitate, but it has, so anything is possible...) 

I think he says 'Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas.' because she is in a home, and he doesn't know if they informed him straight away.


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## guillaumedemanzac

I thought I had better re-read older posts!!
and I found old friends Nico and Itisi have been resurrected ……. not resurged or resuscitated or even regurgitated.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."   Mother is "in character" for Meursault.    … and she died either today or yesterday but that is irrelevant for him. She just died and now, if anyone asks, he can just say "Mother is dead."  ---  unlikely to say that to his friends as he doesn't have any.

[...]


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## Nicomon

> greatbear a dit: ↑
> To reiterate, I don't find "mother" cold: I find that a monstrous assumption by non-native speakers.


Back in 2012, JBPARK was trying to find the best solution in *Corean*. Not English.
And he wanted to know the connotation of the word « _maman _» *in French*.
So I gave my *francophone* opinion of a *French word. *That's "native" to me.

Besides, should you read the whole thread again, you'll notice that a few anglophones mentioned that _Mother_ is either somewhat cold or respectful in their opinion.

All I've been saying since the beginning is that « _Maman_ » is not a "_distanced_" word because well... that was the inital question. Now if you're OK with translating *both* « _Maman_ » and the telegram's « _Mère_ » as "_Mother_", that's your prerogative.


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## Carcassonnaise

I too read this (old-new) post with interest.  What would the collective noun for translators be, I wonder?  A fine-tooth-comb of translators, perhaps?  Or should that be a fine-toothed-comb?

In any case, it's interesting to ponder.  My own 20 cents' worth is that Camus chose to say "Maman".  He could have said "ma mère" but he didn't.  Maman grabs your attention and makes the narrator somehow immediately present.  

So should we render that with "Mother" or "Mum/Mom"?  The OP thought that "Mother" is "distanced, sometimes overbearing" but I am not sure that is right, though it could be in some circumstances.  I think that at a certain period, certainly the period in which the book is set, it was a neutral way of addressing one's mother among certain sections of the middle class.  It definitely has associations that "Maman" simply does not - but then so too does "Mum"!  In the end, I would reluctantly go with "Mother" because "Mum", to me, places us in the wrong period and has slightly more unhelpful associations.  

All of which goes to show that true translation is ultimately impossible and we just do our best to find nearest approximations


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## Itisi

I only came back for the tense of the verb - _that_ hadn't been discussed! 

I can't believe this thread dates back to 2012!


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## broglet

ddppger said:


> I agree with Itisi , mother died today is better .


Better still in my opinion is to retain the original word order: "Today mother died" - which appears more closely to convey Camus's cool matter-of-factness


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## Itisi

I seem to remember that we have been here before... (But I haven't the courage to go looking...)

Starting with 'Aujourd'hui' is the normal, straightforward order (which corresponds to the English 'Mother died today').  If 'aujourd'hui' were at the end, it would stress the fact that it happened today (Today, mother died'.)

Edited


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## Nicomon

I don't know what I'm still doing on this never ending thread, but for all it's worth...
I agree entirely with broglet about the word order.   Back to #7  (Outsider). 

*Edit :*  Itisi, je pense exactement le contraire de toi.

Voir post 23 :





> _Mother died today"_ is closer to _« (Ma) mère est morte aujourd'hui » _
> than to Camus'/Meursault : _« Aujourd'hui, maman est morte » _= (literally) _"Today, mama died"._


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