# Are Racial Jokes Acceptable in Certain Instances?



## Poetic Device

Here is an example of what I mean:  Do you think that it is okay for someone that is partially Irish to tell another person with a little Irish blood in them a joke about Irish drinking habits?


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## maxiogee

No.
It is okay for someone who is fully X to joke (in the belittling sense) about X, but not otherwise.


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## Vanda

It depends on the kind of relationship you have with that person. Actually I have a close friend - won't tell his race  - and he made me promise him to email him all the jokes I often receive on internet. And when we met we laugh a lot. Of course, the versa is true, when he gets to know a joke about us, he tells me. 
Otherwise, I wouldn't joke about these things. Never!


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## panjabigator

Not usually.  It depends on how they are told.  My friend is a VERY PROUD Costa Rican and he always makes jokes about how he should be deported for X reasons.  And he picks on me too because of my race.  But it is all in good fun...that is just how we joke.

I do agree with Tony though.  Jokes about X are only safe when it is between X's.  I think jokes about X told by Y's however are a bit dangerous.


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## Everness

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Here is an example of what I mean:  Do you think that it is okay for someone that is partially Irish to tell another person with a little Irish blood in them a joke about Irish drinking habits?



I think you are mixing too categories here: racial and drunk jokes. That's a dangerous path to travel.  

But people from any ethnic group can laugh at their own expense. First, it's one's prerogative. Second, not taking ourselves too seriously helps us to remain more or less sane. Third, it's the best way to combat racism and prejudice. You laugh it off, don't get depressed and therefore take human stupidity and ignorance lightly.


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## Poetic Device

Everness said:
			
		

> I think you are mixing too categories here: racial and drunk jokes. That's a dangerous path to travel.
> 
> But people from any ethnic group can laugh at their own expense. First, it's one's prerogative. Second, not taking ourselves too seriously helps us to remain more or less sane. Third, it's the best way to combat racism and prejudice. You laugh it off, don't get depressed and therefore take human stupidity and ignorance lightly.


 
No, I'm not getting the two confused.  That was just the first thing that came into my head.  I guess I could have also said a person that is half Jewish telling a Jewish joke to another Half Jewish person, and so forth.

My personal opinion on the matter is this:  as long as you have a good relationship with the other person and you both tell the jokes then it is all right no matter how pure blooded you are or are not.  Case in point:  my best friend and I are both Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Jewish among other things.  We both crack on each other for being those things and it is always a barrel of laughs.  However, when we do this we make sure that there is no one around up that might be insulted.  Is this considered bad form?


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## maxiogee

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> My personal opinion on the matter is this:  as long as you have a good relationship with the other person and you both tell the jokes then it is all right no matter how pure blooded you are or are not.  Case in point:  my best friend and I are both Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Jewish among other things.  We both crack on each other for being those things and it is always a barrel of laughs.  However, when we do this we make sure that there is no one around up that might be insulted.  Is this considered bad form?



If you cannot be overheard, who is there to think it bad form?

=====

With the greatest of politeness and with a huge amount of understanding of what you actually meant - but I have to go by what you actually wrote - I have to point this out


			
				Poetic Device said:
			
		

> No, I'm not getting the two confused.  That was just the first thing that came into my head.  I guess I could have also said a person that is half Jewish telling a Jewish joke to another Half Jewish person, and so forth.





			
				Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Do you think that it is okay for someone that is partially Irish to tell another person with a little Irish blood in them a joke about Irish drinking habits?


Is it just me, or do you see a difference here?


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## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> If you cannot be overheard, who is there to think it bad form?
> 
> =====
> 
> With the greatest of politeness and with a huge amount of understanding of what you actually meant - but I have to go by what you actually wrote - I have to point this out
> 
> 
> Is it just me, or do you see a difference here?


 
No, I see a difference.  My initial question still stands.  The scenario that I gave with my friend involved was just an example of what I personally feel is all right.  I think done any other way--be it a pure blood or not--is a tad rude.  In any event, the former question still stands.


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## danielfranco

I think it all depends on the context. 
Are these two people friendly with each other and have the habit of joking around with each other, or have they just been introduced at a UN function to create awareness of deaths caused by underage drinking?

As with any joke, timing is everything.


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## Poetic Device

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I think it all depends on the context.
> Are these two people friendly with each other and have the habit of joking around with each other, or have they just been introduced at a UN function to create awareness of deaths caused by underage drinking?
> 
> As with any joke, timing is everything.


 
Hmmmm....  The two know wach other but telling the jokes when they are at work.


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## danielfranco

Ooooo, boy, at work, eh?
That's difficult... At work, if overheard by anyone who feels even slightly offended (and you know the overhearing person doesn't even have to be Irish or a drinker to feel offended in the USA, right?) it can be considered "creating a hostile work environment", which would be then considered "harassment", which in many (if not all) workplaces falls under the "zero-tolerance" policy.
I guess a human resources employee would say "no jokes, ever".


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## hohodicestu

Hi everybody,

All work places are considered serious environments.  So I think that jokes should not be allowed at all times, specially the racial ones.


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## ZorroDesierto

Hi, 
I think that jokes are good even racial jokes is not what you say is tha way you say it what can offend someone


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## Kräuter_Fee

I think that depends on to whom you tell the joke. There are people who are very sensitive about this issue, others make jokes about themselves.


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## ps139

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Here is an example of what I mean: Do you think that it is okay for someone that is partially Irish to tell another person with a little Irish blood in them a joke about Irish drinking habits?


Yes, I do this all the time.


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## ps139

Everness said:
			
		

> I think you are mixing too categories here: racial and drunk jokes. That's a dangerous path to travel.


99% of Irish jokes involve beer.


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## Everness

ps139 said:
			
		

> 99% of Irish jokes involve beer.



And I'm sure than at least 1% of Irish don't smile when they hear that...


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## Everness

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Case in point:  my best friend and I are both Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Jewish among other things.  We both crack on each other for being those things and it is always a barrel of laughs.  However, when we do this we make sure that there is no one around up that might be insulted.  Is this considered bad form?



It's interesting that you're talking about ethnicities or nationalities and not about race. (This has been debated in another thread and we still can't come up with solid definitions.)

So I assume if that you were also black, you would feel free to laugh at the expense of your own race. I have no problem with that as I argued above. But is it ok to tell jokes about blacks if you're not black? 

Another question. Why would we make sure that no one is around that might be insulted when telling racial jokes? What's with the audience? Is it that deep down we know we are being naughty, that there aren't just racial jokes but racist jokes? Just asking. 

Ah, I have a couple of good French jokes but I absolutely refuse to tell them so don't insist, ok? ...


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## maxiogee

Question:-
How is the part-X person supposed to react on hearing a joke which is only funny because it plays on a monstrously exaggerated stereotype of a supposed characteristic of all those X out there?
Can they object to these jokes and not be seen as a grumpy and humorless killjoy?
Bear in mind that X jokes are really anti-X jokes. They rarely show the leading character in a good light, do they?

Panjabigator's friend is a great example - he is fully Costa Rican and can decide what is funny and what is hurtful about jokes about being Costa Rican. I would have to argue that someone who is… 

> Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Jewish among other things

…isn't actually any of those things and cannot make the same considered judgement.


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## geve

Someone recently told me that she went to see a one-man-show, and the whole show was based on making fun of Black people. It could probably be considered ok because the performer was himself Black, but my friend found it somewhat awkward.
I am a blonde, and I make blonde jokes. Ok, hair colour is not a race  but a friend here tells me that I shouldn't do it, because I am fueling a sexist disparaging habit by doing so...

Personally I go with this quote from French humorist Pierre Desproges: 
_"On peut rire de tout, mais pas avec n'importe qui":_ _*You can laugh about everything, but not with everyone* (*)_
The hard part being to identify with whom you can laugh of what! 

* if you can think of a better translation please tell me!


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## ampurdan

Your quote is obviously true, Geve, but also quite cynical. It's the same as to say: you can be racist, as long as only other racists know. I know you didn't mean it, but that's what the quote can imply. Don't you think so?


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## LV4-26

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Your quote is obviously true, Geve, but also quite cynical. It's the same as to say: you can be racist, as long as only other racists know. I know you didn't mean it, but that's what the quote can imply. Don't you think so?


 Desproges's quote meant exactly the opposite. He said that during a radio program with Mr Le Pen and "_n'importe qui_" was clearly referring to him (among others). What he meant was "there are people I don't feel like joking with". 

Coluche was also confronted with the same problem. He would tell racial jokes not to mock ethnic groups but to mock the racists themselves. He thought his intentions were clear enough. But they weren't. So he was surprised and saddened to see racists come and tell him at the end of his show "well done, I'm with you".
That is exactly what Desproges would have resented.


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## geve

Thank you for explaining the context of the quote LV  

I think that theoretically, you could laugh about anything if you know that the person shares the same view on the topic. 
So you could tell racial jokes if you were with someone who you know is not a racist and who knows that you aren't either; and I think you're right, ampurdan, the corollary of this is that two racist persons can exchange racist jokes - only it's not the same level of "fun"...



			
				lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't tell a joke to maxiogee, for example.


Well he can't punch you here


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## lazarus1907

What are we talking about here? They are perfectly acceptable if the people who hear them don't have any problem with them, and they are unacceptable otherwise. Some people say these jokes only because they find them witty (and they like all sorts of jokes alike), and others because they are racists and want to hurt others. For example, a friend of mine, who is black, can take from his friends jokes about black people and even tell them himself (of course, he will tell jokes in "other colours"), but he might punch someone he doesn't know in the street for the same joke.

It is a matter of common sense.

I wouldn't tell a joke to maxiogee, for example, but I remember an Irishman who asked me if I knew jokes about Irish people, because he likes them. And I am not Irish.


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## Chazzwozzer

Some can get offended, some can laugh their head off.

I think it's perfectly acceptable as long as people who tell the jokes about other's race know each other well.

I, personally, get never offended if this joke is told by a person I really know, let's say, by my Dutch friend. I know him well and he knows me well, that's why it's always non-objectionable to tell joke about Turks or the Dutch. In fact, we usually do and neither I nor he thought it was not acceptable.

However, I believe that racial jokes may bring along xenophobia and racism when the joke is told among same-raced people.


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## Outsider

When it comes to jokes, I don't think anything should be sacred. Of course, some kinds of jokes should only be told in the right company, following the natural restrictions of politeness and common sense.
To me, the really crude racist jokes are just not funny. But I wouldn't want a law prohibiting people from making them, or anything of that sort.


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## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Question:-
> How is the part-X person supposed to react on hearing a joke which is only funny because it plays on a monstrously exaggerated stereotype of a supposed characteristic of all those X out there?
> Can they object to these jokes and not be seen as a grumpy and humorless killjoy?
> Bear in mind that X jokes are really anti-X jokes. They rarely show the leading character in a good light, do they?
> 
> Panjabigator's friend is a great example - he is fully Costa Rican and can decide what is funny and what is hurtful about jokes about being Costa Rican. I would have to argue that someone who is…
> 
> > Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Jewish among other things
> 
> …isn't actually any of those things and cannot make the same considered judgement.


 
Just trying to understand, that's all...  So, since I am not a pure anything I can't make jokes about anything that I am?  Isn't that sort of unfair?


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## doddle

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> Just trying to understand, that's all... So, since I am not a pure anything I can't make jokes about anything that I am? Isn't that sort of unfair?


You can make jokes about being an American, because that's what you are (I guess that may have been Maxiogee's point),
For me, Irish means someone from Ireland, Polish means someone from Poland, etc.
If you tell Irish, Polish, etc, jokes and are not from those countries, then people who are might have a problem with it.
The fact that your great-grandfather, or something, might be from one of those countries doesn't really come into it, in my opinion.
Anyway, what do you mean by "pure"?


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## Poetic Device

doddle said:
			
		

> Anyway, what do you mean by "pure"?


 
I mean 100% of a nationality.  American, in my opinion, is not a nationality soley because 99% of the population came frome somewhere else.  The only people that are here that are a true American are the Native Americans (i.e. the Cherokees and the Lenapes).  Most of the people here are cross-breeds, the mutts of the human race if you will.  That is why I aked this question to begin with.  I mean, in all sincerity, my country is so mixed (which is not necessarily a bad thing) that I know a Black German Jewish woman.


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## Everness

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> They are perfectly acceptable if the people who hear them don't have any problem with them, and they are unacceptable otherwise.



Problem solved! That was easy... Thank you lazarus.

*"We enjoy listening to racial jokes because it allows us to nurture and entertain the racist gnome that is within all of us." -Everness*


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## Outsider

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> American, in my opinion, is not a nationality soley because 99% of the population came frome somewhere else.


Ultimately, you can say the same about any other nationality.


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## Brioche

ps139 said:
			
		

> 99% of Irish jokes involve beer.


 
I've heard lots of Irish [and Kerryman jokes], but I cannot recall any about beer. 

I've heard much the same jokes in French about the Belgians, and in German about the East Fresians. 

I don't mind some of them.

_What's black and blue and floats in the Liffey?_
_A foreigner caught by Maxiogee after telling Irish jokes._


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## Brioche

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> I mean 100% of a nationality. American, in my opinion, is not a nationality soley because 99% of the population came frome somewhere else. The only people that are here that are a true American are the Native Americans (i.e. the Cherokees and the Lenapes). Most of the people here are cross-breeds, the mutts of the human race if you will. That is why I aked this question to begin with. I mean, in all sincerity, my country is so mixed (which is not necessarily a bad thing) that I know a Black German Jewish woman.


 
According to the most recent theories on the origin of humans, we all came out of Africa, so _everyone_ in America is an African American.


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## Poetic Device

Brioche said:
			
		

> _What's black and blue and floats in the Liffey?_
> _A foreigner caught by Maxiogee after telling Irish jokes._


 

Tee hee.  That was mean..... Be nice.....


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## LV4-26

> the joke is so much funnier when its about a belge person! Except if you're belge. Then, it's so much funnier if it's about a swiss person!


 Coluche.

Why is it so? 
I'll take an example.

One (and I guess the only) stereotype common among French people about the Swiss is that they are supposed to be slow (It surely refers to the French speaking Swiss, who tend to speak more slowly than the average French, at least to some French ears). All so called Swiss jokes deal one way or another with being slow.
Imagine a "Swiss" joke starting like "These two Swiss are walking......"
Imagine the same joke with a slightly different opening "These two men are very slow. They are walking....."
Do you think version #2 will be generally considered as funny as version #1?
If not, why?

Depending on the answer to those two questions, I think you'll know whether it's OK to tell "racial" or "national" jokes.

EDIT : I posted the joke I was thinking of in the "joke thread" for you to make your mind more easily.
Here


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## ireney

I tend to avoid them (unless I know a person really well). However, jokes that are sort of racial but refer to something that is true (though exaggerated in a joke) I don't consider all that bad.

I recently told my mother the "how you make a Greek go mute? You cut his hands" which refers to the very true fact that it's virtually impossible for the overwhelmingly vast majority of Greek to speak without using their hands a lot. Her reply after laughing out loud was that it would be more accurate to say "never" referring to the very true fact that it's virtually impossible for the overwhelmingly vast majority of Greek to shut up.

Mind you in wasn't a Greek or even a hyphenated Greek who first told me the joke. This person didn't know me, personally, very well but he knew us Greeks fairly well so he knew what he was talking about.


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## Poetic Device

ireney said:
			
		

> "how you make a Greek go mute? You cut his hands"


 
That was great.  That joke is also timeless because you can use it for so many other nationalities...


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## ampurdan

What's a hyphenated Greek?


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## doddle

ampurdan said:
			
		

> What's a hyphenated Greek?


I guess it's a Greek*-*American, Greek*-*Australian, etc,.


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## Chazzwozzer

ampurdan said:
			
		

> What's a hyphenated Greek?



Turko-Greek, for instance.

First term indicates that this person is ethnically Turkish and second term indicates that this person is also Greek, probably citizen of Greece. Now, when we hyphenate these two terms, we get a compund word which refer to a person who hold allegiance to both Turkey and Greece.


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## Poetic Device

ampurdan said:
			
		

> What's a hyphenated Greek?


 
This is the way that I understand it, but someone please correct me if I am wrong.  Isn't hyphenated defined as being an individual or unit of mixed background?


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## maxiogee

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> It is a matter of common sense.
> 
> I wouldn't tell a joke to maxiogee, for example, but I remember an Irishman who asked me if I knew jokes about Irish people, because he likes them. And I am not Irish.



Am I seen as totally humorless  or did you leave out a word in there, lazarus? 

> I wouldn't tell a joke to maxiogee, for example


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## Dr. Quizá

Irreverence is a basis for Spanish humour (maybe because we are often unfairly critic with ourselves) so no Spaniard should be labeled by a joke unless you know (s)he has a background in the same direction.


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## maxiogee

Poetic Device said:
			
		

> I mean 100% of a nationality.  American, in my opinion, is not a nationality soley because 99% of the population came frome somewhere else.  The only people that are here that are a true American are the Native Americans (i.e. the Cherokees and the Lenapes).  Most of the people here are cross-breeds, the mutts of the human race if you will.  That is why I aked this question to begin with.  I mean, in all sincerity, my country is so mixed (which is not necessarily a bad thing) that I know a Black German Jewish woman.



You "are" where you are born and reared - or reared, if born elsewhere. I think that the idea that 99% of people in America are not American is a statement made by someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to assimilate into the multiculture which America is.

Does she live in Germany?
— if "yes", then what's so  about that?
 — if "no", then was she born there?
— if "yes", then what's so  about that?
 — if "no", then she's not German.​


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## Poetic Device

maxiogee said:
			
		

> You "are" where you are born and reared - or reared, if born elsewhere. I think that the idea that 99% of people in America are not American is a statement made by someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to assimilate into the multiculture which America is.
> 
> 
> Does she live in Germany?— if "yes", then what's so  about that?
> 
> — if "no", then was she born there?— if "yes", then what's so  about that?
> — if "no", then she's not German.​


 
She was born in Germany and lived there until she was about six.  The  face was because in America that is just easy pickings.  The KKK (once in a blue) have a field day with her because she is African and Jewish.  Also, the Germans in our community look down on her and have ostricized her.


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## mytwolangs

Racial jokes are OK as long as - 
1 - the race you are cracking fun about is not around
2 - if there is some truth to it.
3 - you can beat up the person you want to make fun of.


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## geve

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> Racial jokes are OK as long as -
> 1 - the race you are cracking fun about is not around


Well there seems to be a disagreement about that. Some even think that only those belonging to a group can make fun of this group.
See also this - a Belgian website full of jokes on Belgians.



> 2 - if there is some truth to it.


I wouldn't call it "truth", I would rather use "stereotypes", as was illustrated by LV in post #36 (one could argue that stereotypes are an exacerbation of truth... but that might be the topic of another thread)



> 3 - you can beat up the person you want to make fun of.


Are you still talking about jokes, or blatant disparagement? I would think that the point of telling jokes is to make your audience laugh?


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## Brioche

Here is a joke which plays on national stereotypes,
but I don't think many people would find it offensive,
as it gives each group a bouquet _and _a brickbat.

_In Heaven: the cooks are French, _
_the policemen are English, _
_the mechanics are German, _
_the lovers are Italian _
_and the bankers are Swiss. _

_In Hell: the cooks are English, _
_the policemen are German, _
_the mechanics are French, _
_the lovers are Swiss _
_and the bankers are Italian._


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## cyanista

Outsider said:
			
		

> When it comes to jokes, I don't think anything should be sacred. Of course, some kinds of jokes should only be told in the right company, following the natural restrictions of politeness and common sense.



I agree, Outsider. There are funny jokes and there are stupid jokes. So many jokes about races or nationalties are actually qiute innocent but nevertheless taboo because of the exaggerated p'litical kerrektness. When I told my German friend there were lots of Jew jokes in Belarus he almost fell off his chair. Just out of interest, what would happen if I told a white liberal American a "black" joke? Would they spit in my face or just turn and go away?


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## Poetic Device

It depends on how liberal the person was and how public of an area you're in.  But I don't think that anyone would spit on you.


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## Poetic Device

So, getting back to Tony's comment about who has the right to make fun or wom, I have another question.  What if the person was, for example, 100% Spanish but lived in Japan all or most of his life? Who can he joke about then?


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## Hakro

There are hundreds of jokes about the drinking habits of the Finns (often the same jokes as about the Irish) and we laugh to them ourselves, too. We tell jokes about our neighbours the Swedes and the Russians, as they tell about us (sames jokes that are told in every country about the neighbour nationalities). But I don't think these are really racial jokes.
Instead, the jokes about Africans, Jews and Gypsies are illegal. We can be fined for these jokes, but we do tell them anyway.


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## Poetic Device

Hakro said:


> ...
> Instead, the jokes about Africans, Jews and Gypsies are illegal. We can be fined for these jokes, but we do tell them anyway.


 
Now, see, I'm probably going to get jumped after I say this...  But I think *THAT* is a little extreme...


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## Hakro

Poetic Device said:


> Now, see, I'm probably going to get jumped after I say this...  But I think *THAT* is a little extreme...


That's not yet extreme. We also tell jokes about God and Jesus Christ - and believe it or not, they are not illegal.


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## ireney

Hakro said:


> There are hundreds of jokes about the drinking habits of the Finns (often the same jokes as about the Irish) and we laugh to them ourselves, too. We tell jokes about our neighbours the Swedes and the Russians, as they tell about us (sames jokes that are told in every country about the neighbour nationalities). But I don't think these are really racial jokes.
> Instead, the jokes about Africans, Jews and Gypsies are illegal. We can be fined for these jokes, but we do tell them anyway.



I'm sorry, I can't see why it is illegal to say a joke about i.e. Jews but it's ok to say one about i.e. Chinese.

Oh, and why should the religious jokes become illegal?


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## Poetic Device

It's not a matter of "why should they be illegal" as much as it is the fact that both topics are very touchy and sensative (sp) so why is one illegal and one is illegal.  (This comparison is off topic, but it gets the point across.)  It's like that old saying if a guy says he slept with 20 girls he's a hero to other guys but if a girl slept with twenty guys she's a slut.  It's the same thing basically but for some reason we give it different rules.


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## Hakro

ireney said:


> I'm sorry, I can't see why it is illegal to say a joke about i.e. Jews but it's ok to say one about i.e. Chinese.
> Oh, and why should the religious jokes become illegal?


I can't see it either. Maybe Jews are considered as a race, the Chinese not. 
In my opinion religious jokes shouldn't be illegal but you sure know what happened to Denmark for the Muslim jokes.
As far as I know, Jews generally don't get angry for the racial jokes, they are clever people. Neither God nor Jesus Christ became infuriated. About Chinese I don't know. But the rest...


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## ireney

Thanks for the clarification Hakro  By the way, if any of you know any jokes about Greeks feel free to relate them (and make  sure you PM them to me!) in front of any Greek just as soon as you ascertain he/she doesn't belong to the Greeks-have-invented-everything-the-Greek-language-has-5000000-words bigot. If you meet one of them, it would be better to forget about joking all together for sense of humour requires brain activity to exist. Fortunately there are too few of them around


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## Outsider

Hakro said:


> In my opinion religious jokes shouldn't be illegal but you sure know what happened to Denmark for the Muslim jokes.


They arrested it?


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## Hakro

Outsider said:


> They arrested it?


Kind of, yes.


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## Poetic Device

I think that is just plain ridic.  If your going to put a moronic law like that out then ban all jokes--even the childins "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  (Note:  I am not saying that is what should be done.  I am saying that if you want to be an arse then be an arse all the way.)


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## Hakro

Of course it's ridiculous. But some people just can't stand these jokes that are not meant to cause harm to anybody, they are only jokes.


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## Sallyb36

I'm torn between of course not, and only if it's very funny!!


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## Cracker Jack

Racial jokes may be acceptable if they shared by people belonging to the same race.  Whoopi Goldberg hosted the 2002 Academy Awards Night and she quipped ''This year, there is mudslinging in the Academy.  Too many blacks nominated.  Of course everyone laughed and took it with humor.

However, if the same statement were made by a Caucasian, then it would have been a different story.


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## geve

Poetic Device said:


> I think that is just plain ridic. If your going to put a moronic law like that out then ban all jokes--even the childins "Why did the chicken cross the road?" (Note: I am not saying that is what should be done. I am saying that if you want to be an arse then be an arse all the way.)


I think it goes with rules that say you can't denigrate a group of people. There is such a law in France, and it gives a list of criterias on which you aren't allowed to instigate discrimination (ie. ethnic, nationality, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, handicap). 
Theoretically I guess it could be applied to jokes too, but it depends on the intent: as has been said earlier in the thread, the kind of jokes we're discussing is about shared stereotypes. 
So there are two possibilities: either you leave it to people to identify what's an innocent joke and what's an incitation to hatred or discrimination; or you legislate and ban jokes.


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## Outsider

geve said:


> I think it goes with rules that say you can't denigrate a group of people. There is such a law in France, and it gives a list of criterias on which you aren't allowed to instigate discrimination (ie. ethnic, nationality, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, handicap).


Wouldn't the incitement to discrimination have to take place in public for the law to be appliable, though? Like at a political rally? 
And do jokes count as incitement to discrimination?...


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## geve

Outsider said:


> Wouldn't the incitement to discrimination have to take place in public for the law to be appliable, though? Like at a political rally?


Well it certainly has to be in public, otherwise how would the judge know?
This appears in the law referring to freedom of the press; but it applies to anything publicly stated (including on the internet for instance).


Outsider said:


> And do jokes count as incitement to discrimination?...


Well it all boils down to that IMO... This thread, I mean. We don't all share the same beliefs nor the same sense of humor. Sometimes it's not that easy to draw the line between humour and disparagement, and you might draw the line differently according to the person who utters the joke and what you know about her/him, too. I could tell a joke but not find it funny if someone else were to say it, an extreme-right leader for instance.


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## mora

Hello

I think these jokes are *always* offensive. They rely on racial stereotyping and marginalizing people. It does not matter to me if the person telling the joke is wholly or partly of the group that is the subject of the joke, that just indicates that they have internalized and accepted the racism that they have experienced. It does not matter if the person telling the joke did not 'mean any harm', these jokes *do* cause harm, regardless of the intent. One can joke about politicians because people in politics choose to do that, but you can't make racial jokes because people do not choose their race, and racial differentiation (treating people differently because by race) has resulted in great suffering and injustice throughout history. If race 'meant nothing' , and really was inconsequential then maybe racial jokes could be funny, but that is not the society we live in and the history we are burdened with. 

Mora


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## Victoria32

Brioche said:


> Here is a joke which plays on national stereotypes,
> but I don't think many people would find it offensive,
> as it gives each group a bouquet _and _a brickbat.
> 
> _In Heaven: the cooks are French, _
> _the policemen are English, _
> _the mechanics are German, _
> _the lovers are Italian _
> _and the bankers are Swiss. _
> 
> _In Hell: the cooks are English, _
> _the policemen are German, _
> _the mechanics are French, _
> _the lovers are Swiss _
> _and the bankers are Italian._


Oh Brioche, that's brilliant! 
My father was English, and a reasonably good cook, but he did it as little as he possibly could get away with...


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## Poetic Device

geve said:


> I think it goes with rules that say you can't denigrate a group of people. There is such a law in France, and it gives a list of criterias on which you aren't allowed to instigate discrimination (ie. ethnic, nationality, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, handicap).
> Theoretically I guess it could be applied to jokes too, but it depends on the intent: as has been said earlier in the thread, the kind of jokes we're discussing is about shared stereotypes.
> So there are two possibilities: either you leave it to people to identify what's an innocent joke and what's an incitation to hatred or discrimination; or you legislate and ban jokes.


 
But, don't the French crack about Americans all the time?  Is that an exception or is the just the American stereotyping the Frence?  (I really want to know.  I am not being a wise guy).


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