# se meaning a demonstrative and the defnite article



## HSS

How did it become necessary for Finnish 'se' to evolve into meaning the definite article or a semi-definite article in the near past. I am currently working on an effective way for speakers of the Japanese language, which does not have the definite article, to learn to use the definite article. Maybe I could get some clue if I get to know the transition of 'se' coming to double as the demonstrative and the definite or a semi-definite article. (By the way, I have no knowledge of Finnish)

To make my question easier to answer, why do some people use 2 instead of 1? Does anything become clearer? To whom? The listener?

[1] Kissa on pöydällä.
[2] Se kissa on pöydällä.


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## n8abx9

The use of "se" as in example [2] is more *spoken *language. I remember vaguely hearing a Finnish language expert say in an interview that its use has increased due to the influence of English. "Se" is just a normal demonstrative pronoun. Finnish has three flavours of them (tämä, tuo, se). "Se" refers to something that is generally known or shared knowledge (according to Kielitoimiston sanakirja, see below 6.a):

*6.* vars. puheessa.
*a.* viittaamassa jhk yhteisesti t. yleisesti tunnettuun. _Tuo on se kuuluisa laulaja. Tapasin tänään sen uuden naapurin. Onko teillä vielä niitä tarjouskäsineitä? Tuo on taas sitä herrojen viisautta. _
*Erik.* (vars. ironissävyisissä) toistorakenteissa. _Se rakkaus, se rakkaus! Ne naiset, ne naiset. _

So my take on your example [2] "se kissa" would be: "The cat we just saw / the cat we talked about / the cat that is otherwise for whatever reason in the shared space of both speaker and listener is on the table." But  example [1] *also *talks about a known / already talked about cat, otherwise the sentence would be:

[3] Pöydällä on kissa.


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## HSS

The influence from English --- this is very interesting, because Finnish did not have a sense of definiteness marked by lexical entities but by the word order --- known information first, new information next. But now people are adding a word to show the sense. I wonder how they developed or acquired the sense, which did not used to be in the language. There must have been some push by some English element, then. More interesting yet, the English 'the' is derived from the Old English word 'se.'


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## Marko55

This might be interesting for you:
*Iso suomen kielioppi*: _Onko suomessa artikkelia?_ (Is there an article in Finnish?); Iso suomen kielioppi - Wikipedia:
VISK - § 1418 Onko suomessa artikkelia?

The text is in Finnish, but you can copy the text into Google Translate and have an understandable translation.


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## Spongiformi

I don't know if the story is true or not, but back in school I recall hearing that when the written Finnish was developed centuries ago, there was some intention to have "se" as a definite article. Finland was back then the eastern province of Sweden, and the Swedish language naturally has articles, being a Germanic language. So, I reckon the forefathers of the written Finnish language might have initially thought to model it after the Swedish fashion for the definite article. However, they did realise their mistaken thoughts sooner or later because there was no strict rule in the language to make it obligatory. Articles are strictly enforced by the languages that use them (as far as I know), including when to use them and when not (for example, countable, uncountable noun).

But like I said, I don't know if this was just a legend or if it really happened.


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## n8abx9

HSS said:


> The influence from English --- this is very interesting, because Finnish did not have a sense of definiteness marked by lexical entities but by the word order --- known information first, new information next. But now people are adding a word to show the sense. I wonder how they developed or acquired the sense, which did not used to be in the language. There must have been some push by some English element, then. More interesting yet, the English 'the' is derived from the Old English word 'se.'



I wouldn't jump to conclusions and not draw up historical connections between languages that developed entirely separately for centuries. I would instead look for some KOTUS expert's take on this.


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## HSS

Thanks, everyone, and sorry I'm so slow at writing back. My interest has deepened. KOTUS, yes, I'll see if there is anything that I can refer to from them. Could anybody please tell me the perceived difference between 1 and 2? One would be more conversational than the other? One would be more referential than the other? More assertive in definiteness? ...

[1] Kissa on pöydällä.
[2] Se kissa on pöydällä.


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