# 的 / 之



## Aoyama

What is the difference between 的 and 之 ?

I know 的 belongs to modern Chinese and 之 belongs to 文言.
的 is a recent creation whereas 之 was the original possessive form.
Is there a rule regarding usage of both words ?

Thank you for your help.


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## univerio

If I understood you correctly, are you asking how to choose between the two?  之 is very rarely used in ordinary speech and writing. Prove me wrong, but I think they are interchangeable but 之 changes the tone to a little more formal.


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## Aoyama

> I think they are interchangeable but 之 changes the tone to a little more formal.


I know that, but, for example, you will say/write : 我的书　(never 我之书） but you would see written 玉寺之园/门 (as an example).
Meaning that you would use 之 for (famous) places, given (place) names etc. Amoung other examples.


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## univerio

之 is from ancient times, i.e. when they named those places. Now I guess they use it to indicate a level of formality, but yeah, you're right, sometimes they are not interchangeable.  I've thought about it, and I think that 之 is used when something is a part of something else, rather than possessed by it, and vice versa.


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## Aoyama

> I think that 之 is used when something is a part of something else, rather than possessed by it, and vice versa.


Food for thought ...


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## xiaolijie

In addition to what's been said so far, I think 的 occurs quite freely and 之 in more restricted contexts. As a result, I think the best way for learners to use 之 is through imitation.


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## samanthalee

This is a very interesting question.
Hmm...
In everyday speech, we use 的. As far as I can see, 之 is used only in titles, names and anything related to revered subjects such as Heaven or Principles (of Life, of Confucius and other really important stuff).

For example it can be used in 魔戒三部曲*之*王者再臨 （Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King), though the current trend is to adopt the English habit of using the colon [:]

When it is used in 玉寺之门, it is used as part of a "name", that is The Door of Yu Si. If we are simply talking about a door in Yu Si, then we would have said 玉寺的门.


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## Flaminius

Just my 2日本円 but 的 and 之 are not always interchangeable.  In the following examples, it is impossible to replace 的 with 之:
老子今天灰头土脸的
是的


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## univerio

Flaminius said:


> Just my 2日本円 but 的 and 之 are not always interchangeable.  In the following examples, it is impossible to replace 的 with 之:
> 老子今天灰头土脸的
> 是的



Yes, but in the context of showing ownership. There are numerous uses of 的 so you can't really say 2 characters are identical. They can only be the same on some levels.


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## Aoyama

Samanthalee (post #7) gives a good example which clarifies things (a little) :


> When it is used in 玉寺之门, it is used as part of a "name", that is The Door of Yu Si. If we are simply talking about a door in Yu Si, then we would have said 玉寺的门.


As to Flaminius (a bit humoristic) post, this concerns a different use of 的 , which is not exactly "possessive" (though that could be argued).


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## Staarkali

Example of common use of 之:
我一小时*之内*到了
你礼拜六*之前*通知我你下个礼拜来不来


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## univerio

Staarkali said:


> Example of common use of 之:
> 我一小时*之内*到了
> 你礼拜六*之前*通知我你下个礼拜来不来



That's another usage of 之...


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## Aoyama

> Example of common use of 之:
> 我一小时*之内*到了
> 你礼拜六*之前*通知我你下个礼拜来不来


That is very true. These are some *idioms *which who not admit 的 but as  univerio points out, this is another usage of 之 (though it is true that this could be taken as a possessive in a way).
I wonder, by the way, if 之内 is close to 以内, and 之前 to 以前 ...


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## coconutpalm

I read this post yesterday yet I decided to drop it because I couldn't simply give a better answer than Samanthakee's.
However, this is really an interesting post.



Aoyama said:


> That is very true. These are some *idioms *which who not admit 的 but as univerio points out, this is another usage of 之 (though it is true that this could be taken as a possessive in a way).
> I wonder, by the way, if 之内 is close to 以内, and 之前 to 以前 ...


之 has many usages. As for your question, 之前 and 以前 are not completely the same. 
之后 
zhīhòu 
〖after〗∶紧接在…时以后 
作出安排之后(以后）,我们就照着办 
〖behind〗∶在…后面 
房屋之后有棵大樟树 
〖afterwards〗∶然后 
之后他又给我来过两封信 
http://xh.5156edu.com/html3/1749.html
You can see in this page many words containg 之 as well as a detailed explanation of its usage.

It is clear enough that in modern Chinese, 之　is much more formal than 　的 when meaning “的”.


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## Aoyama

多谢 for the site, extremely useful！！


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## Staarkali

Aoyama said:


> though it is true that this could be taken as a possessive in a way


in fact, in my non native mind, I take it like that.

thanks for the site xh.5156edu.com, it is really helpful!


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## Aoyama

Then there is also the case of 百分之80 (80%), where 之 cannot be replaced by 的 ... But that would concur with Samanthalee post (#7) and the concept of "exclusive possessive". A percentage being  calculated on the exclusive part of 100.


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## Staarkali

她是公司最漂亮之一 _she is one of the most beautiful girl of our company._

Also includes the meaning of 的 but cannot be replaced by.

EDIT: another (poetic) example:
丝绸之路 The Silk Road


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## AVim

Staarkali said:


> 她是公司最漂亮之一


她是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)之一


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## xiaolijie

Slightly off topic: Staarkali's example has reminded me of a question I've heard but have not yet got an answer for. How should we say "some of" in Chinese, such as in: 
_"These are some of the most beautiful girls in the world"_, or _"They are some of the most famous people of China"_

??
Edit: Here is one of my poor attempts:
这些都是世界上最漂亮的之。。。 （What is needed after 之？）
他们都是中国人之中最有名的一些 人（This sounds a bit clumsy to me）


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## Aoyama

> 她是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)之一


That is an interesting combination of 的 and 之　(她是公司最漂亮*的*之一) ...
But this being said, this use of 之一 is similar to 百分之x (x%).


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## AVim

xiaolijie said:


> Slightly off topic: Staarkali's example has reminded me of a question I've heard but have not yet got an answer for. How should we say "some of" in Chinese, such as in:
> _"These are some of the most beautiful girls in the world"_, or _"They are some of the most famous people of China"_
> 
> ??
> Edit: Here is one of my poor attempts:
> 这些都是世界上最漂亮的之。。。 （What is needed after 之？）
> 他们都是中国人之中最有名的一些 人（This sounds a bit clumsy to me）



Use '一部分' or '一些':
These are some of the most beautiful girls in the world => 
1) 这些是一部分世界上最漂亮的女孩.
OR
2) 她们是世界上最漂亮的一些女孩

They are some of the most famous people of China => 他们是中国最著名的一些人


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## Staarkali

AVim said:


> 她是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)之一


当然了，这菊花就是含的和之一起的一个完美的例子。
Thanks for pointing out the missing 的

Now to go on the current topic, how do you say:
_They are four of the most famous people in China._
_Miss Wang and miss Gao are 2 of the most beautiful girls in our company._

My try:
_他们是中国最著名的四个人_
_王小姐和高小姐是我们公司最漂亮的两个女的_

(the meaning of these sentences wouldn't be _they are the four most famous people in China, Misses Wang and Gao are the two prettiest girls in our company _instead?)


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## samanthalee

Staarkali said:


> _他们是中国最著名的四个人_
> _王小姐和高小姐是我们公司最漂亮的两个女的_
> 
> (the meaning of these sentences wouldn't be _they are the four most famous people in China, Misses Wang and Gao are the two prettiest girls in our company _instead?)



You are right. The meanings of these sentences are _they are the four most famous people in China_, and_ Misses Wang and Gao are the two prettiest girls in our company_.

In this case_, 的 _is not used as a possessive particle. It is used as a conjunction between an adjective (_中国最著名, __我们公司最漂亮) _and a noun (_四个人, __两个女的__)_.

My attempt:
_They are four of the most famous people in China. =_ 他們是中國最著名人物當中的其中幾位。[他们是中国最著名人物当中的其中几位。]
_Miss Wang and miss Gao are 2 of the most beautiful girls in our company._= 王小姐和高小姐是我們公司最漂亮女孩的其中兩個。[王小姐和高小姐是我们公司最漂亮女孩的其中两位。]
We don't use 之四 or 之二 here. Only 之一 is idiomatic.

她是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)之一 is a misleading example because 之一 is actually the short form of 其中之一 which in turn can be replaced by the phrase 其中的一個[个]. As Aoyama has mentioned, 其中之一 is similar to 百分之x (x%).
To illustrate:
其中之一 = one out of the pool
百分之x = x out of 100 portions

_Miss Wang is one of the most beautiful girls in our company_ should have been 王小姐是公司最漂亮女孩其中之一。Mandarin has a tendency to drop particles. If we use all the correct particles in the example sentence, we'll get 王小姐是公司*里的*最漂亮*的*女孩*的*其中之一


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## coconutpalm

xiaolijie said:


> _"These are some of the most beautiful girls in the world"_, or _"They are some of the most famous people of China"_
> 
> Edit: Here is one of my poor attempts:
> 这些都是世界上最漂亮的之。。。 （What is needed after 之？）
> 他们都是中国人之中最有名的一些 人（This sounds a bit clumsy to me）


I would translate them as following:
这儿有些世上最美丽的女孩。
他们是一些最出名的中国人。If you delete 一些, it would mean that only they are the most famous people of China.


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## AVim

samanthalee said:


> 她是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)之一 is a misleading example because 之一 is actually the short form of 其中之一 which in turn can be replaced by the phrase 其中的一個[个]. As Aoyama has mentioned, 其中之一 is similar to 百分之x (x%).
> To illustrate:
> 其中之一 = one out of the pool
> 百分之x = x out of 100 portions



老大的意思是不是说这样容易误导人家去使用 '之二', '之三' 之类的词?
例如： 她俩是公司最漂亮*的*(女孩)_之二_ [X]

是么？


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## Staarkali

Thank you Samantha for such a comprehensive answer, that's very helpful!

so to sum up:

她们是我们公司最漂亮的两位 They are the two prettiest girls in our company
她们是我们公司最漂亮的*其中*两位 They are two of the most prettiest girls in our company

The only thing is to add 其中 and we change from _the most_ to _some of the most_, am I right?


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## Staarkali

Haven't noticed the post of Coconut yet, also very useful!

Ok, this is more fuel to the fire, here are more tries (same topic), thanks to correct the beginner I am still in that beautiful language:
她们是我们公司最漂亮的两个女孩　They are the two prettiest girls in our company
她们是我们公司两个最漂亮的女孩　They are two of the most prettiest girls in our company

对不对？


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## Aoyama

> 她们是我们公司最漂亮的两个女孩　They are the two prettiest girls in our company
> 她们是我们公司两个最漂亮的女孩　They are two of the most prettiest girls in our company


That goes a bit beyond the scope of this thread, but I'll pour my fuel on that also :

她们是我们公司*的*最漂亮两个女孩　(孩子）

她们是我们公司（*之*)*内的*最漂亮两个女孩

她们是我们公司（*之*)*里的*最漂亮两个女孩


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## AVim

Aoyama said:


> 她们是我们公司（*之*)*里的*最漂亮两个女孩


 她们是我们公司*里*最漂亮*的*两个女孩

*之内* is fine.
*之里* is wrong.


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