# Personal info on application forms



## tissi

Hello. I'm new in the Arabic forum, although not in other languages forums. This year I have to teach Spanish to some students from Morocco and some other Arabic countries and I'd like to help them the first time they come to school, because some of them can't understand a word in Spanish. Well, the question is I'm trying to prepare an application with some words in both Spanish and Arabic. I think I have these 2 words for "name" and "nationality"
إسم   جنسية      
Are they ok?
Is there any place on the web where I can find translation so that I can copy and paste the words in Arabic into my form? I've tried with some other words but a student who speaks French says those words are wrong (not the ones I've written here). The words I need for the form are
 
SURNAME
TELEPHONE NUMBER
COUNTRY OF BIRTH
DATE OF BIRTH
EDUCATION (BASIC EDUCATION, UNIVERSITY)
FIRST LANGUAGE
 
 Thank you very much for your help.
 
Tissi


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## abusaf

ٍSurname :
الإسم الأول

Telephone number:
رقم الهاتف

Country of birth:
محل الميلاد

DATE OF BIRTH:
تاريخ الميلاد

 EDUCATION (BASIC EDUCATION, UNIVERSITY):
المدارس التي التحقت بها
_(litterally: the schools that you have attended)_


 FIRST LANGUAGE:
اللغة الأصلية

or mother tongue: لغة الأم


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## cherine

Hello Tissi and welcome to the Arabic forum 
Here's my take on the words you need.


tissi said:


> name الاسم
> nationality الجنسية





tissi said:


> Surname   اللقب
> telephone number  رقم الهاتف
> country of birth مكان الميلاد
> date of birth تاريخ الميلاد
> education (basic education, university) التعليم (جامعي، أساسي)
> first language اللغة الأولى
> ​



As for translation sites, I'm not sure, but you can look in the resources sticky, maybe the dictionaries listed there (try Sakhr) can help you, and then you can always come and ask for clarification/confirmation in the Arabic forum  ​


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## MarcB

Tissi,
For pronunciation you can go here. Although it works best if vowelized.


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## elroy

Surname is اسم العائلة. (Cherine and Abusaf, perhaps you misunderstood the English word?)

I prefer Cherine's translations for the other words (محل is not common in these contexts, Abusaf, and your translation of "education" is not quite precise) except for "first language" - for which I prefer لغة الأم.

In sum:

اسم العائلة
رقم الهاتف
مكان الولادة _(Note: This literally means "place of birth." If it of utmost importance to you that they give the country, add_ الدولة _in parentheses.)_ 
تاريخ الولادة
التعليم (أساسي وجامعي)
لغة الأم


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## ayed

cherine said:


> Hello Tissi and welcome to the Arabic forum
> 
> Here's my take on the words you need.​
> As for translation sites, I'm not sure, but you can look in the resources sticky, maybe the dictionaries listed there (try Sakhr) can help you, and then you can always come and ask for clarification/confirmation in the Arabic forum  ​[/left]


Cherine !I think there is a difference :
Country of birth # Place of birth 
Since they are international students , then I see 
*دولة الميلاد*
the best translation for Country of birth
What do you think?


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## Josh_

elroy said:


> Surname is اسم العائلة. (Cherine and Abusaf, perhaps you misunderstood the English word?)
> 
> اسم العائلة


I prefer this one also, but اللقب is also correct, at least according to the Hans Wehr and here as well.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> I prefer this one also, but اللقب is also correct, at least according to the Hans Wehr and here as well.


 Well, اللقب also means "title" so it could be misinterpreted.


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## abusaf

Actually_, _when it comes to "surname", then most Arabic dictionaries provide both إسم العائلة and لقب . So Cherine was not wrong. I, however, certainly was.


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## Josh_

elroy said:


> Well, اللقب also means "title" so it could be misinterpreted.


You mean title in terms of "Mr.", "Mrs.", etc?


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:


> You mean title in terms of "Mr.", "Mrs.", etc?


 Well, it just means "title" - of any kind. If I saw it on a form I would assume it referred to "Mr." and "Mrs." and the like. 

I know what the problem is now. When you and Abusaf said that it could be used for "surname" according to most dictionaries, I did not bother to check the validity of that and responded that (even if you were right) I would avoid it because it means "title" and could be misinterpreted.

I've since done some more research. Apparently, in English the word "surname" has _two_ meanings (I did not know this): "family name" and "nickname or epithet added to a person's name." لقب corresponds to the latter, and that must be why it's listed in dictionaries.

لقب does _*not*_ mean "family name," which is obviously the meaning intended in this context. I have never seen it on a form or anything similar with this meaning, and I would be surprised if Cherine has. I suspect she simply misunderstood the English word.

Conclusion: Never blindly trust a dictionary!


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## Josh_

The Hans Wehr does say it can be a nickname (I assume in the sense of definition #2 of surname on dictionay.com), but it also says (and I quote) "family name (as opposed to اسم _ism_ given name, first name)."  But, as I said, I do prefer اسم العلئلة more as it what I am familiar with and has appeared on the few Arabic language applications I have seen.  I have never seen لقب  on an application.  But if it did appear on an application requesting personal information, I do not think I would confuse it as a synonym of عنوان .


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## elroy

Well, that's really strange (but we've come across strange entries in Hans Wehr before).  عنوان would _not_ be used to refer to "Mr." or "Mrs." but rather to the title of a book or something.  The word that would be used would be لقب.


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## Josh_

Yes, that's what I mean.  I would not confuse its presense on an application with a synonym of 3unwaan, but rather, I would know it was asking for title in the sense of "Mr." or "Mrs."


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## elroy

Ah, ok - we're in agreement then.   Except that I'm more skeptical of the Hans Wehr entry.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Guys

These are some links I found for person's biographical details:

link 1

link 2

link 3

link 4

the last link is by far the most extensive.

Here is another link and it usesالشهرة  for family name.


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## elroy

Great links, Abu Bishr.  Thanks.

I notice that the second one is the only one that translates "family name" as اللقب, but then again it translates "first name" as اسم العائلة  so it's not exactly 100% trustworthy.


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## Abu Bishr

Just a simple question. Could it be that the reason why "اللقب" (which literally means "title") is sometimes used for "surname" is that often in the Arab world (and elsewhere too) the person's surname originally started out as a title or profession or craft or even tribal relation and then eventually became that person's surname. Afterall, the surname is meant to distinguish one person from another esp. if they have the same name. This also accounts for the prefixing of the definite article "al" to many an Arab surname e.g. Muhammad al-Sabouni, Fulaan al-Juhani, Ahmad al-Snoubari, etc.

What complicates the matter in the Arab world, I think, is what they call "Ism Thulathi" (name of person - father - father's father) which is then also followed by the family name which is normally a tribal relation, profession, craft, and so on. In the West a person often has two names (a first and second) and then the surname. The second name in the Arab world is almost always that of the father, and this becomes often a headache when a westerner is trying to fill in an official form where the ism thulathi system is used.

Personally, I would prefer اسم العائلة for surname due to the absence of any ambiguity, as اللقب is nowadays also used for a person's jobtitle. What do Moroccans use though?


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## elroy

That might be it, Abu Bishr.  Strictly speaking, though, لقب does not actually mean "family name" as an all-encompassing term.


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## cherine

In Egypt, we use the word laqab for the family name. But as this seems to give potential misunderstandings, then I prefer the use of اسم العائلة which is sure to be understood by any Arabic speaker, without confusion.

As for mother tongue, I prefer اللغة الأم to لغة الأم because the second means "mother's tongue".

Other than that, I think we agree about the rest


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## ayed

Cherine , could you please look at my comment No.6 above?


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## cherine

Sorry Ayed, I forgot to answer your post  


ayed said:


> Cherine !I think there is a difference :
> Country of birth # Place of birth
> Since they are international students , then I see *دولة الميلاد *he best translation for Country of birth.
> What do you think?


Yes, you're right. دولة الميلاد is much better than مكان/محل الميلاد , I was influenced by what we usually write in "local" forms here 
Thanks for the comment


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## Abu Bishr

cherine said:


> As for mother tongue, I prefer اللغة الأم to لغة الأم because the second means "mother's tongue".


 
I think this point makes for a really interesting discussion. Here are some of my reflections:

(1) What does "mother tongue" in English mean? Does it mean the tongue or language in which your mother spoke to you and you learnt from her? Or does it mean a tongue that is the "mother of tongues" for a particular person. Would it make sense to say in Arabic: عندما يتعلّم الطفلُ لغة أمه (When a child / baby learns his mother tongue i.e. the tongue of his mother) or to say: عندما يتعلم الطفلُ لغته الأم (When a child / baby learns his mother tongue i.e. his tongue which to him is the mother of tongues)? 

So even though I've seen both اللغة الأم and لغة الأم being used for "mother tongue" but which one is truer to the meaning of "mother tongue" in English, if we assume that the Arabic is translated from the English. I suppose the translation of "mother tongue" in other languages will shed more light on the subject.

(2) How would you translate "the mother language" meaning the language from which descendant languages were "born"? Would we say: اللغة الأم , which would not mean "the language of the mother" but rather the language that is like a mother to daughter languages.

(3) How would translate the plural form, namely: "mother tongues" or "the children in South Africa learn different mother tongues"?

(4) My final point is: now what about اسان الأم as a translation for "mother tongue" which also seems to corroborate لغة الأم rather than اللغة الأم because both share the Idaafah construction.

Note to moderators: Feel free to open this as a new thread if you deem it outside the scope of this thread.


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## cherine

Abu Bishr said:


> (1) What does "mother tongue" in English mean? Does it mean the tongue or language in which your mother spoke to you and you learnt from her? Or does it mean a tongue that is the "mother of tongues" for a particular person. Would it make sense to say in Arabic: عندما يتعلّم الطفلُ لغة أمه (When a child / baby learns his mother tongue i.e. the tongue of his mother) or to say: عندما يتعلم الطفلُ لغته الأم (When a child / baby learns his mother tongue i.e. his tongue which to him is the mother of tongues)?


This is too deep for me. But I'll try to answer anyway.
Both sentences are correct, each has its meaning (as you showed).


> So even though I've seen both اللغة الأم and لغة الأم being used for "mother tongue" but which one is truer to the meaning of "mother tongue" in English, if we assume that the Arabic is translated from the English. I suppose the translation of "mother tongue" in other languages will shed more light on the subject.


I expressed my opinion before, but I'll repeat it anyway.
To me, the correct expression is اللغة الأم not in the meaning of "the mother of all tongues" (!)  but "the prinicpal language", the first language a person learns when (s)he is a child.


> (3) How would translate the plural form, namely: "mother tongues" or "the children in South Africa learn different mother tongues"?


I suggest اللغات الأم  where "umm" is a singular feminine adjective of plural feminine adjective, which is not weird in Arabic. We can say : يتعلم الأطفال في جنوب إفريقيا عدة لغاتٍ أم. Or, if you wish عدة لغات أساسية. Or, if you want a longer sentence :
 يتعلم الأطفال في جنوب إفريقيا عدة لغات، كلٍّ منها تُعدُّ لغةً أم. ​


> (4) My final point is: now what about لسان الأم as a translation for "mother tongue" which also seems to corroborate لغة الأم rather than اللغة الأم because both share the Idaafah construction.


In Arabic, and as far as I know, both words لسان - لغة mean "language", so it won't make much difference.
And I don't see where is the iDaada in اللغة الأم it's a word+adjective. Unless I got your words wrong.

To sum up, I don't see where these interesting questions could lead, but I tried to answer them anyway. I hope I've been of help.


> Note to moderators: Feel free to open this as a new thread if you deem it outside the scope of this thread.


Your wish is my command. If this prolongates into a serious and fruitful discussion, I'll be glad to give it its own thread.


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## Abu Bishr

cherine said:


> In Arabic, and as far as I know, both words لسان - لغة mean "language", so it won't make much difference.
> And I don't see where is the iDaada in اللغة الأم it's a word+adjective. Unless I got your words wrong.


 
I meant that since both اللغة and اللسان can be used interchangeably for language, and since لسان العرب is an iDaafah construction, it appears to me that this iDaafah construction supports لغة الأم (also an iDaafah construction) and not اللغة الأم (a Sifah mawSuuf construction). When I said "both share the Idaafah construction" I meant both لسان العرب and لغة الأم so لسان العرب acts as a kind of مرجِّح if you know what I mean.

Ps. When I used the expression "mother of tongues for the child" and not "mother of all tongues" as you quoted me, I only meant that it is the most important language for the child, because "Umm" is often used to mean that. For example we say: أمهات الكتب (most important books), أم الباب (the most important "thing" in a class of things).


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## tissi

Thank you all for your help. I had not answered before because I've had some problems with my email. This will help arab students of Spanish when they first come to school.
Tissi


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