# Speaking with a "ball in mouth"? (pronunciation question)



## Howl

Hello everyone!

I'm a rather new student of German, I started studying it in April of this year and I am really enjoying learning it so far. 

However I had a question about pronounciation. My friend (who is a native German), says my pronounciation still needs alot of work, and that when I talk it sounds as if I "have a ball in my mouth".

He says all english speakers sounds like this, not just me. However when I asked him to explain what he meant by this he said "I can't explain it anymore then that, it sounds like you speak with a ball in your mouth."

So I was hoping to ask if anyone else had heared this expression before, or atleast knew what he meant by this. Do english speakers have a "ball" (not literally of course), when they speak?

If so, what would be some good ways to work around this? I would certainly like to work on my pronounciation. I checked the resource sticky that has all those great links, but I was unable to find something that seemed to go with this topic.

Hopefully my question makes sense, and thanks to anyone who can answer .


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## FloVi

First, welcome to the forum.

My tip: Don't care about the pronounciation (except it's really wrong). The most important things are the grammar and the vocabulary. If you're firm with these, you can care about the cosmetic things. And if your friend is joking about your pronounciation, i have some names for you:

Siegfried and Roy,
Arnold Schwarzenegger (especially in "Conan" - "Ai brrott ju samm flaurrrs [I brought you some flowers]"


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## Lykurg

I completely agree with FloVi - grammar and vocabulary are of much higher importance. 

But if you really want to work on pronunciation, you should listen to native speakers (e.g. audio books) and try to copy them.

I estimate the following sounds to be most difficult (sometimes almost impossible) for an English speaker:
both "ch"-sounds - [x] and [ç], "r" and "u".

Once I tried to teach a correctly pronounced "warum" to a Scottish friend of mine - it took us about one hour to reach a _nearly _native pronunciation.
Moral: You should be assisted by someone who _exactly _knows where the mistake in articulation comes from.


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## Jana337

Hi Howl, herzlich willkommen! 

My mother would say that all English natives speak as if they had a hot potato in the mouth, even if they speak English. 

Ask your friend if he could be more specific: Could it be that you are trying to smuggle the -th- sound in German? For uninitiated speakers of other languages, -th- often sounds as if you have an obstacle in the mouth. Moreover, the -t- sound between two vowels could have the same effect; I sometimes think that Americans pronounce "water" as if it were "wader".

If you want, you can record your pronunciation and attach the file here (but the size limit is not very generous). We might be able to tell you more.

Jana


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## Kajjo

Ja, "als ob man eine heiße Kartoffel im Mund hat" ist sogar die Anleitung meines Englisch-Lehrers gewesen, um uns die englische Aussprache näher zu bringen.

Man senkt dabei den Unterkiefer ab und schiebt ihn eventuell leicht vor. Die Aussprache vieler Konsonanten erfolgt dann nicht mehr mit dem Gaumen, sondern eben auf typisch englische Art. Dies betrifft ganz besonders "r"- und "ch"-Laute.

Kajjo


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## englishman

Lykurg said:


> I estimate the following sounds to be most difficult (sometimes almost impossible) for an English speaker:
> both "ch"-sounds - [x] and [ç], "r" and "u".


You estimate incorrectly - the most difficult sound in German for an English speaker is the "l" sound, for the simple reason that very few teachers point out (or are aware) that the "l" sound in German is very different from that in English (compare German "hell" with English "hell") - we have a dark "l" in most English dialects, whereas German uses a bright "l", pronounced with the tongue touching the upper front teeth. 

This alone is enough to make an English speaker stand out. However, I believe that the defect that original poster is writing about is different, and is due to largely to the more rounded use of the mouth when Germans vocalise dipthongs like "au" and "eu" (and perhaps more subtle differences that I'm unaware of).


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## Lykurg

englishman, I understand that it will be difficult if not mentioned - but how do you pronounce the "l" in "willow"? Is there still a difference?

If not, a learner just has to memorize that he should use this special "l". But the other sounds have no match in English (apart from Scottish "Loch")


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## englishman

Lykurg said:


> englishman, I understand that it will be difficult if not mentioned - but how do you pronounce the "l" in "willow"? Is there still a difference?
> 
> If not, a learner just has to memorize that he should use this special "l". But the other sounds have no match in English (apart from Scottish "Loch")



1. Yes, you should use a dark "l" in "willow" (very few non-natives can pronounce this correctly, however). In fact, I'm struggling to think of any words in English that _don't _have a dark "l" - I'm not sure that there are any.

2. I wouldn't suggest that a bright "l" is harder to pronounce correctly that a German "ch" or "ü", but merely that so few people seem to be aware of it that they never even try to pronounce it.


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## MrMagoo

englishman said:


> 1. Yes, you should use a dark "l" in "willow" (very few non-natives can pronounce this correctly, however). In fact, I'm struggling to think of any words in English that _don't _have a dark "l" - I'm not sure that there are any.
> 
> 2. I wouldn't suggest that a bright "l" is harder to pronounce correctly that a German "ch" or "ü", but merely that so few people seem to be aware of it that they never even try to pronounce it.


 

I noticed that Americans often pronounce an "l" with the tips of their tongues just between their teeth (reaching upper lip), but people from Britain don't seem to do it that way - how do you pronounce your "l"?

Cheers
-MrMagoo


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## Outsider

englishman said:


> 1. Yes, you should use a dark "l" in "willow" (very few non-natives can pronounce this correctly, however). In fact, I'm struggling to think of any words in English that _don't _have a dark "l" - I'm not sure that there are any.


"Lake" has no dark L in RP.

If I understand the original remark correctly, I would say that what makes English speakers sound like they're "speaking with a ball in their mouth" is:

- the way they pronounce the R. Learn the German pronunciation.
- the way they pronounce many vowels as diphthongs. Learn not to add a glide to every vowel.


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## jazyk

No offense, but many Romance language speakers think that Germanic languages are too hard, consonants are too "explosive", vowels are not as abundant as we should expect them to be, which makes some of us think that Germanic speakers talk with a hot potato in their mouths (or ball in our friend's case). I've never heard the same about Slavic (although they can be as bad or even worse sometimes as far as consonant clusters are concerned) or any other languages.


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## Outsider

I don't know. English sounds very different from German, to me.


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## jazyk

It does to me, too.  I speak both languages, but not everybody is as cultured as you and I.


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## lovettina

Don't be put off by this. My husband is from Germany (Hamburg), and he will NEVER "sound like an American", just as I will never sound like a German. What is important is that you try. I speak Spanish and Italian quite well, my German is passable (good enough for the in-laws). What Germans need to appreciate is that their language is REALLY complicated!!!


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## Howl

> Hi Howl, herzlich willkommen!


 
Danke sehr 

Thanks for the welcome and suggestions everyone, they were very much appreciated.



> My mother would say that all English natives speak as if they had a hot potato in the mouth, even if they speak English.


 
Yeah, he says the same. That english speakers have this "ball" even when they speak English.



> estimate the following sounds to be most difficult (sometimes almost impossible) for an English speaker:
> both "ch"-sounds - [x] and [ç], "r" and "u".


 
Actually, this friend has helped me alot with learning the "ch" sound, and he says I pronounce them just fine. However you are correct that both "r" and "ü" give me alot of trouble.

Would anyone have any suggestions for these two? Especially the "r", It seems you need to make that sound with your throat, but I simply cannot do it =\. I even tried the "gargle water" suggestions that was posted in another topic. But with no luck.



> the way they pronounce many vowels as diphthongs. Learn not to add a glide to every vowel.


 
Hmm, not sure I completely understand what you mean by this. Could you explain?



> Don't be put off by this. My husband is from Germany (Hamburg), and he will NEVER "sound like an American", just as I will never sound like a German. What is important is that you try.


 
Yeah, I understand. Thanks .



> My tip: Don't care about the pronounciation (except it's really wrong). The most important things are the grammar and the vocabulary


 
Yeah, I certainly understand. I will of course continue to work on Vocab and grammar as the most important things. Still, I would also like to be able to pronounce the vocab that I learn correctly, so I still look at pronounciation as an important factor.

Well thanks for the tips so far everyone, I appreciate them all. If anyone has any suggestions about the "r" or "ü" it would be great.


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## englishman

Outsider said:


> "Lake" has no dark L in RP.
> 
> If I understand the original remark correctly, I would say that what makes English speakers sound like they're "speaking with a ball in their mouth" is:
> 
> - the way they pronounce the R. Learn the German pronunciation.
> - the way they pronounce many vowels as diphthongs. Learn not to add a glide to every vowel.



1. Good point. In English, a leading "l" is not dark, but it's not quite the Germanic "l" of "hell" either.

2. Re: "Learn not to add a glide to every vowel." needs a "when you speak German." It is, of course, perfectly acceptable in most British dialects. And again, very few Germans can pronounce vowels à l'anglais. It's probably harder to go from nice, clean German vowels to British ones.


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## Outsider

englishman said:


> 1. Good point. In English, a leading "l" is not dark, but it's not quite the Germanic "l" of "hell" either.


Quite possibly. There seem to be lots of ways to pronounce an L. For example, I've often felt that the English initial L is different from the Portuguese initial L, though I can't explain the difference.



englishman said:


> 2. Re: "Learn not to add a glide to every vowel." needs a "when you speak German." It is, of course, perfectly acceptable in most British dialects.


Naturally. 



englishman said:


> And again, very few Germans can pronounce vowels à l'anglais. It's probably harder to go from nice, clean German vowels to British ones.


I'm not so sure of that. I think it's the opposite: English speakers are so used to vowels coming with an embedded glide that they have a hard time even realising that they're using a diphthong instead of a plain vowel, and subtracting the glide from it. Adding a glide to plain vowels I think is easier, at least in languages that have diphthongs, like German.

Here's a good site for the phonetics of English and German, with lots of Ls!


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## Lykurg

Lykurg said:


> If not, a learner just has to memorize that he should use this special "l". But the other sounds have no match in English (apart from Scottish "Loch")





Outsider said:


> "Lake" has no dark L in RP.


Sorry for my lack of precision, I meant the [x] of "Lo*ch*". 



englishman said:


> 1. Yes, you should use a dark "l" in "willow" (very few non-natives can pronounce this correctly, however). In fact, I'm struggling to think of any words in English that _don't _have a dark "l" - I'm not sure that there are any.
> 
> 2. I wouldn't suggest that a bright "l" is harder to pronounce correctly that a German "ch" or "ü", but merely that so few people seem to be aware of it that they never even try to pronounce it.


@ 1. That's quite a surprise - thank you for bringing it up; now I've got something to struggle with...

@ 2. (and following postings): I really intended u, not ü - but it is not that important, since their difference is the gist of the matter. A friend of mine (born and grown up in London) lives here for nearly ten years and has mastered grammar nicely by now. But though trying hard she pronounces every long "u" like "ü" - she does that in English, _tüü_.


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## boyaco

everyone has a different level of ability when it comes to pronunciation. yours may be low. you are just starting, so it sounds like you just need to practice. just try to imitate the sounds as well as you can. you say you have a friend who speaks german, so that should be very helpful. he can help you pinpoint the problems, hopefully, instead of just saying what he said.
tapes that come with textbooks are helpful since you can read along with what they say in the tape.

good luck

Boyaco


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## gaer

The most difficult sounds for me in German are ö and ü.

I don't understand the whole discussion about the difference between "l" in German and in English. I can tell all of you for a fact that I place my tongue above my upper teeth for most words.

I never had any trouble understand words in German with "l", didn't ever notice a difference!

Gaer


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## Kajjo

gaer said:


> I never had any trouble understand words in German with "l", didn't ever notice a difference!



I am glad to read that! I cannot follow the discussion about "l"-pronunciation at all, because I am not aware of the difference and I just cannot imagine what this is all about!

My personal point of view:

Certainly, "r" is extremely different between German and English. It's funny that both sounds are called "r". Maybe it would be easier if they had different names!

Certainly, the German long "e" is totally different from all English "e"- and "i"-sounds. This is a real problem for many English speakers and makes understanding sometimes difficult. A good German "e" pronunciation is worth a lot! I know only very few native English speakers who pronounce "e" correctly.

Certainly, both types of "ch" are no English sounds and might such be a challenge. However, many speaker are pretty good at it.

Kajjo


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## Whodunit

Kajjo said:


> I am glad to read that! I cannot follow the discussion about "l"-pronunciation at all, because I am not aware of the difference and I just cannot imagine what this is all about!


 
Just a quick question:

Do you see a difference between German "hell" (= bright) and English "hell" (= Hölle)? If you can hear different L's, you'll be able to follow the discussion.

By the way, it might be correct that the English L in "light" sounds a bit different from German "Leid," but if you pronounce "Leid" the English way (= light/lite), everyone will understand it perfectly.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:


> Just a quick question:
> 
> Do you see a difference between German "hell" (= bright) and English "hell" (= Hölle)? If you can hear different L's, you'll be able to follow the discussion.


I know this was for Kajjo, but I don't think it's that simple. You see, the vowel sound is different too.

Say these words: light, leicht. For me my tongue is already doing something completely different because of what follows. My tongue is moving much quicker in German because of the movement through "ei" to "cht".

Gaer


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## gaer

Kajjo said:


> Certainly, the German long "e" is totally different from all English "e"- and "i"-sounds. This is a real problem for many English speakers and makes understanding sometimes difficult.


It works both ways. I can't tell you how often I hear something halfway between "okay" and "okey". To me this is a sound that is right in the middle, or close to that. The first thing that struck me when I finally was able to find a good teacher, unfortunatly only for one year, was that when he said, "Wie geht's…," the sound was not gates or geets, but in the middle. Then I started noticing that even in the alphabet, the same thing happens. "B" is not "bee" or "bay", but again somewhere in between.

And the "r"? I agree. In German, it is either someplace totally different, or rolled as in Spanish (in certain words and certain regions), and the ending "r" I associate with BE. The ending of "mother" and "Mutter" are VERY close if you are English, in a different universe if you are from most places in the US.

Gaer


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## Outsider

gaer said:


> The first thing that struck me when I finally was able to find a good teacher, unfortunatly only for one year, was that when he said, "Wie geht's…," the sound was not gates or geets, but in the middle.


That's why I've never liked textbooks that describe the continental high "e" as an English long "a".


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## Kajjo

gaer said:


> hen I started noticing that even in the alphabet, the same thing happens. "B" is not "bee" or "bay", but again somewhere in between.



Yes. However, I wouldn't say that "Be" is between bay and bee, considering that ay is a diphthong and e is not. This only shows how extremely difficult the German long e is for English speakers.

Kajjo


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## Whodunit

gaer said:


> I know this was for Kajjo, but I don't think it's that simple. You see, the vowel sound is different too.
> 
> Say these words: light, leicht. For me my tongue is already doing something completely different because of what follows. My tongue is moving much quicker in German because of the movement through "ei" to "cht".
> 
> Gaer


 
Of course, you are right. The English "eye" is quite different from (slower than?) the German "Ei." However, this is not what I was focussing on. I just wanted to mention that both L's are very different from each other. The same can be said about "hole" and "hohl." Of course, the vowels are different again, but this time they are both "long." And still the L's are not much alike.


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## Outsider

However, I think that the different pronunciation of the "light" L, and the different pronunciation of "eye" and German "ei", are things that most people hardly notice. Would the native speakers of German agree with me?


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## Whodunit

Outsider said:


> However, I think that the different pronunciation of the "light" L, and the different pronunciation of "eye" and German "ei", are things that most people hardly notice. Would the native speakers of German agree with me?


 
I would notice that your "Ei" (egg) or "Weile" (a while) sound English, but I would definitely understand it. We would never use the English pronunciation of the pronoun "I" to call an "egg;" the English "I" sounds noticeably different from our German "Ei."


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## Kajjo

I agree with Whodunit that English "eye" sounds different than German "Ei" and both sounds are not at all interchangeable. 

I like to suggest that the reason is that most English vowels tend to sound slightly like a diphthong. "Eye" is just not a pure sound, a simple vowel, but "something is going on" while pronouncing the syllable. I cannot describe it more precisely, but I hope some native speakers will elaborate.

Kajjo


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## Outsider

I was just remembering the way the Scorpions sing "You and I". Their "I" does not sound quite English. It's a bit closer to "You and Oy", to my ears.
Well, "oy" is an exaggeration. I suppose their /a/ is pronounced further back in the mouth than the English /a/ in "I" /ai/.


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## Whodunit

Outsider, I think the English _a_ sound in "eye" is pronounced further back in the mouth than the German one in "Ei". Furthermore, the _a_ sound in English lengthened, while the German one sounds like the _u_ in "b*u*t".


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## gaer

Kajjo said:


> I agree with Whodunit that English "eye" sounds different than German "Ei" and both sounds are not at all interchangeable.
> 
> I like to suggest that the reason is that most English vowels tend to sound slightly like a diphthong. "Eye" is just not a pure sound, a simple vowel, but "something is going on" while pronouncing the syllable. I cannot describe it more precisely, but I hope some native speakers will elaborate.
> 
> Kajjo


For the most part, I think that describing sound with words is a hopeless task. I'm quite sure that any attempt I make to speak German "stinks" of my origins, meaning that I give myself away in seconds as a foreigner, and most likely you would hear "US" in my pronunciation.

However, I'm generally very good at hearing small differences in sounds. I just can't reproduce them.

Nothing in German sounds the same to me as in English.

There is one example I can give you that I think will make sense.

Trained singers, especially opera singers, never sing "a" as in "day". Never.

They sing: "daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa—ee"

The first part can be very close to your "e", more so in the lower range. It is not quite the same as the "a" in "sat". It can be adjusted many ways. But the final vowel change is delayed to the very end of a note, and this is as true for Frank Sinatra as for Luciano Pavarotti.

The reason we frequently can't understand the words sung by popular groups is that they don't use these same vocal techniques.

For the same reason, "I" is "aaaaaaaah—ee". The reason singers do this is that the final "ee" closes the throat.

It is the ending of the sounds for "I" and "day" that make the difference. The throat closes or reshapes to a different extent in differnt languages and in different sounds. This is why you hear "ah" for "I" in the south, in the US, but certain British actors pronounce a much sharper "ee" sound right at the end, or arrive at the sound a bit earlier. In English it produces very clear diction too.

Singers will tell you that there are very few "pure vowels". Such a vowel sound does not change. You can sing it without changing the shape of your mouth or throat, even if the note is ten seconds long. You can do this with "eeeeeeeeeeeeeee", and you can do it with "uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" as in "shoe". But even "o", as in "go" (American pronunciation) is actually somewhat like "aaaaw-uu".

When you speak, it is very hard to sense this. But if you sing, you are very aware of it because you must plan what you will do with your throat, and it is affected by the vowels.

By the way, this is why opera works great in Italian but produces some horrendous sounds in German, French and English.

Imagine singing "grün". It almost completely closes the throat.

Gaer


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