# Abnormal Curvature in Cucumbers and Bananas-  Do you benefit?  Or care?



## cuchuflete

Have a look here.

For those unwilling to click,



> As Commission Regulation (EC) 2257/94 puts it, bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature". In the case of "Extra class" bananas, there is no wiggle room, but Class 1 bananas can have "slight defects of shape", and Class 2 bananas can have full-on "defects of shape".  No attempt is made to define "abnormal curvature" in the case of bananas, which must lead to lots of arguments. Contrast the case of cucumbers (Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88), where Class I and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10mm per 10cm of length. Class II cucumbers can bend twice as much.



If you are an EU resident, what benefits do you see in such burrocratic dictates?
Do you perceive a health benefit in eating straighter bananas and cucumbers?
How do you feel about paying the salaries of those who create such ingenious regulations?


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## jester.

Well, I've already known that there are some strange EU regulations but this one is definitely somewhat weird...

Or, in other words: Do you _really_ want to know if I, as an EU resident, see any benefit in such a regulation?


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## Joca

Well, I am not a resident of the EU, but I am wondering if this new law (?) has anything to do with transportation. Bananas and probably cucumbers are imported into Europa from faraway countries. It seems a lot easier to package fruit and vegetables that are regular in size, shape and weight. And probably, as far as bananas and cucumbers are concerned, it'd be easier, too, if they were straighter rather than crooked. Just my guess. I may be off the mark...


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## Fernando

It is simply a quality standard, that could be possibly used to ensure the products have a minimum quality and to ease the consumer to distinguish the best and worse classes of a product.

Anyway, 90% of European (along with States') are not enforced. 9% of the remaining are not met anyway. So, I do not care anyway.

The best bananas come from Canary Islands, anyway.


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## cuchuflete

Fernando said:


> It is simply a quality standard, that could be possibly used to ensure the products have a minimum quality and to ease the consumer to distinguish the best and worse classes of a product.



A quality standard?  Would Fernando have us join the burrocrats in believing that
a straighter banana has better nutritional properties or better flavor?  That is pushing
the notion that straighter is better a little far, isn't it?  

If we set aside curvature as a culinary or nutritional matter, that leaves us with
aesthetic considerations.  Is Brussels now dictating that fruits and vegetables must
be in accord with some institutional sense of prettiness?


____________________
_    When the people fear the government, there is Tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is Liberty.  _Thomas Jefferson


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## Fernando

At the risk of being considered a racist, straighter is better. An abnormally curved banan is probably a mutant, deviated, cancer-provoking banana (not to talk about the sexual implications).

Now for serious, as a often banana-eater (no jokes, please) straighter bananas are tastier than curved ones. I do not know the reason.


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## cuchuflete

Fernando said:


> Now for serious, as a often banana-eater (no jokes, please) straighter bananas are tastier than curved ones. I do not know the reason.



The reason is obvious:

aquí






​


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## Outsider

I thought it might be for esthetic reasons. Consumers may prefer straighter bananas and cucumbers.

On the other hand, the sources provided to us so far do not clarify just how crooked a banana has to be, to be disqualified. They may be thinking of extreme levels of curvature which one would rarely find in the first place.


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## Vanda

> Now for serious, as a often banana-eater (no jokes, please) straighter bananas are tastier than curved ones. I do not know the reason.


I know, I know, I know.  You've never eaten curved and smaller bananas in their countries of origin. The smaller the better. There is no way to compare!

It has always fascinated me how on earth Europeans "invented" this formula about curvature in bananas as a signal of quality. An European friend of mine told me about that and I was astonished, knowing for sure the differences between the product in its natural habitat and the way it is consumed in Europe (I mean Europe because it is the place I can compare to).I am still trying to understand this pattern of quality.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:


> I thought it might be for esthetic reasons. Consumers may prefer straighter bananas and cucumbers.
> 
> On the other hand, the sources provided to us so far do not clarify just how crooked a banana has to be, to be disqualified. They may be thinking of extreme levels of curvature which one would rarely find in the first place.



In all seriousness, Outsider, do you need regulations to tell you about proper banana esthetics?
Might consumers be trained to prefer straighter bananas when that's all they are allowed to see?


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## Outsider

The regulations seem to be fairly recent (nineties, right?). Perhaps the EU bureaucrats made some market research, and concluded that crooked bananas and cucumbers were less competitive in international markets. (As far as _I_'m concerned, it makes no difference. )


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## ireney

Which section does this weird looking piece of legislation come from? That could give us a clue. Context please ;p

Edit: Got it but my browser is acting up so go here and search for the "whereas" . If the page doesn't load up for you either try this (the cached page from google search)


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## aleCcowaN

Usually people comment that behind this kind of regulations are corporative interests. Maybe, a closer look to banana varieties and producers would cast some light on this issue. I took a look to the bananas stored in my fridge, using a ruler, and they don't comply with this regulation, being always first class bananas from Ecuador, most of the time from Dole -not today-, an American producer. Maybe they're favouring producers based on countries where French and British companies are strong, or so. About cucumbers, I can't imagine.

Straighten bananas by force of regulation sounds unnatural to me. There's only one thing I'm sure: this poster fruits and vegetables that markets, regulations and consumers are promoting are becoming more and more tasteless each year, and certain varieties are so strange, like long-life tomatoes -just water in a red package- , and strawberries ended with a crest like a rooster instead of the cone-shape I used to taste in my childhood, that I fear to be attacked by a bunch of vegetables each time I go to the greengrocer's.


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## maxiogee

Straight, and uniform, are retailers delight. Things which are straight are easier to stock, things which are uniform are easier to package.

Once again the evil devils of capitalism grind the unfortunate hoi polloi are ground under the wheel of commerce — *&^%$£ 

evil, devil, and a spot of blasphemy - how's that for thread drift?


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## Jana337

The EU's own myth-debunking page says:


> Nothing is banned under these rules: they simply                      help to inform traders of particular specifications.


The relevant regulation, however, states: 


> In all classes, subject to the special provisions for each class and the tolerances allowed, the bananas must be:
> 
> ...
> 
> - free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,
> ...


No exact numbers are provided and the provision is not enforced as far as I know.

The European Union often says that the regulation simply aims to replace individual countries' standards for grading fruits. In the same document, the section about sizing says:


> Sizing is determined by:
> - the length of the edible pulp of the fruit, expressed in centimetres and measured along the convex face from the blossom end to the base of the peduncle,
> - the grade, i.e. the measurement, in millimetres, of the thickness of a transverse section of the fruit between the lateral faces and the middle, perpendicularly to the longitudinal axis.
> (...)
> 
> The minimum length permitted is 14 cm and the minimum grade permitted is 27 mm.


There's been an attempt to sue a British supermarket chain for non-compliance with the grading rules but the UK High Court declared the EU rules inapplicable.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> If you are an EU resident, what benefits do you see in such burrocratic dictates?
> Do you perceive a health benefit in eating straighter bananas and cucumbers?
> How do you feel about paying the salaries of those who create such ingenious regulations?


I deeply resent attempts of burrocrats to micromanage my life.


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## ElaineG

> *Abnormal Curvature in Cucumbers and Bananas- Do you benefit?   *


 
Wow, what a bummer. I thought this thread was going to be about something much more interesting.  At least a recap of the Clinton/Lewinski scandal or something....

When I lived in East Africa, most of the food did not agree with me.  The bananas -- short, long, curved, straight, stubby, speckled, sweet, mealy -- always did.  Someone once told me that there are 200 varieties of Banana in Africa.  I have never tried to confirm this, but the diversity of bananas is a thing of beauty.

Any regulation that tends to encourage the planting of a single uniform variety of banana rather than allowing the marketplace to explore the wonder of all kinds of bananas is a bad thing.


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## xrayspex

_Any regulation that tends to encourage the planting of a single uniform variety of banana rather than allowing the marketplace to explore the wonder of all kinds of bananas is a bad thing._ 
Bad for consumers, but possibly good for whoever owns the patent on whichever varieties of bananas meet the specification, which is likely why that bit of legislation exists.


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## Amityville

> 12.2 All trade agreements between the EU and third countries
> avoid or at least mitigate negative effects on biodiversity.



from “Biodiversity and the EU – Sustainable Life, Sustaining Livelihoods”
Conference - May 2004 Malahide Ireland. 


So does this ostensible bananaism support the biodiversity of another 
member fruit ?


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## cuchuflete

I probably should have given this thread a more pointed title—with less curvature:

What do you think of petty regulations?  Do they make your life better?

It's not about cucumbers and bananas.  As taxpayers, we bear the expense of
paying burrocrats to invent this stuff, and then we pay to have it enforced, sporadically,
and then we pay again by 'enjoying' the effects of such nitpicking nonsense.



Just so nobody feels that the EU is being singled out for praise, in 1985 the U.S. Department of Agriculture issued regulations for quality classifications of cucumbers (They have none listed for
bananas! Hoooray!).   The best grades have the least curvature.



> §51.2230 Well formed.
> "Well formed" means that the cucumber is practically straight and not more than very slightly constricted or more than moderately tapered or pointed.
> 
> §51.2236 Fairly well formed.
> "Fairly well formed" means that the cucumber may be moderately curved but not deeply
> constricted, not extremely tapered or pointed and not otherwise misshapen
> 
> §51.2238 Badly deformed.
> "Badly deformed" means that the cucumber is so badly curved, constricted, tapered or otherwise so badly misshapen that the appearance is seriously affected.
> 
> 
> 
> §51.2220 U.S. Fancy.
> "U.S. Fancy" consists of cucumbers which are well colored, _well formed_, not overgrown, and which are fresh, firm, and free from decay, sunscald, and from injury caused by scars and from damage caused by yellowing, sunburn, dirt or other foreign material, freezing, mosaic or other disease, insects, cuts, bruises, mechanical or other means. (See §51.2227.)



Given the extreme precision of the terms used, they are kind enough to show pictures to illustrate
the acceptable shapes.  http://www.ams.usda.gov/standards/vegfm.htm


I sleep better at night, knowing that if I purchase "Fancy" cucumbers, they won't be 
"so badly misshapen that the appearance is seriously affected."


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## ElaineG

> I sleep better at night, knowing that if I purchase "Fancy" cucumbers, they won't be
> "so badly misshapen that the appearance is seriously affected."


 
There's a very strange style over substance thing in all of this, not really surprising in terms of contemporary agricultural practice, but the _appearance_ of a cucumber or a banana or a tomato or anything has little to do with its taste.

It would be much more helpful if vegetables and fruits were labeled "meets all EU/USDA standards for tasting like cardboard."  

Actually, the easiest way to meet appearance standards for fruits and vegetables might be to have them produced on assembly lines in low-wage industrialized countries out of edible fillers and starches.  The taste of your average supermarket produce would not notably suffer.


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## Athaulf

cuchuflete said:


> I probably should have given this thread a more pointed title—with less curvature:
> 
> What do you think of petty regulations?  Do they make your life better?
> 
> It's not about cucumbers and bananas.  As taxpayers, we bear the expense of
> paying burrocrats to invent this stuff, and then we pay to have it enforced, sporadically,
> and then we pay again by 'enjoying' the effects of such nitpicking nonsense.



Well, the bureaucrats have obvious incentives for sucking taxpayer money by such means. However, I think there's also more to it. Various government agencies that enforce all kinds of laws and regulations find it very convenient when the overall body of laws and regulations is so immense, convoluted, and silly that it's impossible for anyone to even keep track, let alone obey all of them. Just imagine the power it gives to their bosses, who only need to point the finger at anyone to find a whole laundry list of sins and infractions -- which also gives them further justification for endless increases in their power and budget, because with so much disobedience, things are obviously running out of control and need to be reined back in! Hence the phenomenon of the executive lobbying the legislative for endless production of such legislative silliness, often successfully. 

The real problem, however, is when this trend starts creeping into the _criminal _law -- a phenomenon that's still relatively limited, but constantly increasing.


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## Kajjo

Dear Cuchuflete,
I can assure you that most Europeans wonder why so much bureaucracy is funded and supported, most would like to see European regulation drastically reduced. Further, there is not muc sense in regulating everything Europe-wide when in fact the different nations would prefer to enjoy to have laws that fit their national needs. One size fits all has never been the right recipe.

As to bananas and cucumbers: It silly and superfluous, but there are worse regulations.

Kajjo


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## vachecow

cuchuflete said:


> What do you think of petty regulations?  Do they make your life better?
> It's not about cucumbers and bananas.  As taxpayers, we bear the expense of
> paying burrocrats to invent this stuff, and then we pay to have it enforced, sporadically, and then we pay again by 'enjoying' the effects of such nitpicking nonsense.



My first thought is that petty regulations like this are really dumb.  However, there are probably so many of them that affect the way I live everyday, I probably wouldn't like it.  Its hard to tell.

The fact that I have to help pay for stuff like that would make me angry, except for the fact that if I got mad every time the government wasted money on something pointless, I would always be angry.
Theres my two cents...
VC


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## Macunaíma

ElaineG said:


> ... but the diversity of bananas is a thing of beauty.


​_A thing of beauty is a joy for ever:_
_Its loveliness increases; it will never _
_Pass into nothingness, but still will keep_
_A bower quiet for us, and a sleep_
_Full of sweet dreams, and health, and quiet breathing..._

From_ Endymion_ - John Keats (1795-1821)​ 
On a _serious_ note, in Brazil there are regulations as to the acceptable size of eggs _but, of course, Brazilian chickens couldn't care less and disobey the law openly!

I suggest a summit where Brazilian and American bureaucrats could form a task force to discuss the size of eggs and curvature of bananas, and perhaps even sign agreements on that respect. The comedians would do such a great job of it that it would be worth every penny of our taxes.


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## la reine victoria

My mother once told me there was a popular song - "I've never seen a straight banana."  Here.

Of course all these EU regulations are ridiculous and do nothing to help the banana growers who rely on their crops as their chief source of income.

Who cares about their shape - taste is all important.

As for cucumbers, give me my friends' home-grown varieties, some of which are almost curly, rather than the straight, plastic-wrapped objects on offer in our supermarkets.  Again, it's the flavour which counts.

They'll be standardising papayas next!  

LRV


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## vachecow

la reine victoria said:


> Who cares about their shape - taste is all important.


Bingo!  My thoughts exactly!


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## danielfranco

I wonder if these kind of regulations are the result of powerful lobbying campaigns. I mean, maybe by describing what a banana and cucumber should be (as in, not like a pretzel) then they are probably excluding some kinds or species that grow predominantly in some country or other. And so those lawmakers earn points come election time.
Maybe... It's probably some conspiracy against Chiquita brand stuff, and their guerrilla crop-bodyguards, or something equally sinister...

[I hate being such a paranoid cynic. I'd settle down being either one or the other, but both combined? Oy, vey!]


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## John-Paul

I think we need more Rush Limbaugh type commentators to explain to Europeans how deep the governments has invaded their crooked autonomies.


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## aleCcowaN

danielfranco said:


> [I hate being such a paranoid cynic. I'd settle down being either one or the other, but both combined? Oy, vey!]


Conspiracy theories are bad, but conspiracies still exist.

Many times behind such regulations are interests -should I say hidden? no, just not advertising their presence; should I say selfish? no, just we-defend-what-is-ours; should I say illegitimate? not at all, the regulations in fact exists within a perfectly legitimate legal frame- and this interests may noticeably try to straighten bananas in order to crook competition.

I agree with ElaineG and her sound remark: ' It would be much more helpful if vegetables and fruits were labeled "meets all EU/USDA standards for tasting like cardboard." '

When I visited the USA, I found all vegetables, fruit and dairy products tasting some sort of average between nothingness and bleach. Mozzarella and Ricotta cheese seemed Liquid Paper to me. I concluded things are that way because you can sue a corporation for selling you food that gives you a diarrhoea that makes you break all the records of Carl Lewis without a medal, but you can't sue a corporation for selling you tasteless items.


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