# Si fa chiamare Tonio



## fdelnero

Hey tutti!

Eccone una nuova, con allegato tentativo:

1."Si chiama Antonio, ma si fa chiamare Tonio"
   "His name is Antonio, but he wants other people to call him Tonio"

My translation doesn't sound very fluid. Is there something better?


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## Emma Neve

Come ti suona: "he'd rather be called Tonio"?

Emma


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## fdelnero

Grazie per il consiglio Emma.

A mio parere "he'd rather be called Tonio" non riesce a tradurre bene il senso della frase:
Antonio non preferisce che gli altri lo chiamino Tonio, vuole semplicemente che gli altri lo chiamino così (in altre parole, quando fa una nuova conoscenza, si presenta come 'Tonio').


Aspettiamo nuove opinioni magari...


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## Emma Neve

oops... avevo frainteso 

"He wants to be called Tonio" ?


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## Leo57

fdelnero said:


> Hey tutti!
> 
> Eccone una nuova, con allegato tentativo:
> 
> 1."Si chiama Antonio, ma si fa chiamare Tonio"
> "His name is Antonio, but he wants other people to call him Tonio"
> 
> My translation doesn't sound very fluid. Is there something better?


 
Hi there
This is a little difficult as I actually thought Emma's answer was ok.  So what does ..._si fa chiamare_ actually mean then?   Does the _si_ refer to _himself_ (Tonio)?   Let's have a try:

His name is Antonio, but he calls himself Tonio.
Her name is Susan, but she prefers Sue.  (more English)
She's called Susan, but prefers Sue.  (a shorter version)

Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?
Ciao
Leo


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## underhouse

_His name is Antonio, but he has other people call him Tonio._


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## Leo57

fdelnero said:


> _My translation doesn't sound very fluid. Is there something better_?


 


underhouse said:


> _His name is Antonio, but he has other people call him Tonio. This is the posh (formal) version._


 
Hi underhouse
I was looking for something "more fluid", (or short and sweet) but at least I understand "si fa chiamare" now.  Yours is more faithful then to the Italian, but I still think Emma's is more natural in English.   I can change yours to something more colloquial: He's called Antonio, but (he) gets everyone to call him Tonio.  I'm not that keen on it though, but it's ok. I'm just wondering if there's another (better) way, but I just can't think of it.

Bye for now
Leo


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## Tegs

Io direi: 

1) His name is Antonio, but everyone calls him Tonio
2) His name is Antonio, but he prefers Tonio
3) His name is Antonio, but he prefers to be called Tonio

_He's called Antonio but gets everyone to call him Tonio_ e' piu' informale che le altre opzioni.


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## pescara

Maybe this is what you are looking for:
His name is Antonio, but *he goes by* Tonio.

Ciao.


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## neuromatico

"Si fa" is an interesting passive construction that doesn't translate well into English. 
Unless I've missed the boat and "si" is part of chiamarsi! 

I first encountered it as an equilavlent of "shall we..."

Si fa una passeggiata? (Shall we go for a walk?)
...although I've never actually _heard _anyone say this. Is it used?

Regarding Tonio, all of Tegs' suggestions are heard in AE, especially #1.
But I would say the _most common _is:

His name is Antonio, but you can call him Tonio.

(I _don't_ think we'd say: ...but shall we call him Tonio?)

Edit. definitely concur with perscara.


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## Cassidy's Mom

"He goes by Tonio" is the correct translation.


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## Roo Boy

neuromatico said:


> "Si fa" is an interesting passive construction that doesn't translate well into English.
> Unless I've missed the boat and "si" is part of chiamarsi!



The "si" refers to chiamare (chiamarsi). The sentence makes no sense if the "si" is forming a passive "si fa". It would translate literally as something like "He calls himself Antonio but one does to call Tonio" which makes no sense at all.

If you include a subject pronoun, the sentence would be:

"Si chiama Antonio, ma *lui *si fa chiamare Tonio."

I would translate this as:
"His name is Antonio but he uses the name Tonio".
or
"His name is Antonio but he goes by the name Tonio".



neuromatico said:


> I first encountered it as an equilavlent of "shall we..."
> 
> Si fa una passeggiata? (Shall we go for a walk?)
> ...although I've never actually _heard _anyone say this. Is it used?



If you were asking someone or a group of people whether they would like to go for a walk, you wouldn't use the passive "Si fa una passeggiata?". This means "Does one go for a walk?" You would ask "Facciamo una passegiata?"


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## Emma Neve

Roo Boy said:


> If you were asking someone or a group of people whether they would like to go for a walk, you wouldn't use the passive "Si fa una passeggiata?". This means "Does one go for a walk?" You would ask "Facciamo una passegiata?"


 
Pretty common, actually...

1. Si fa una passeggiata?
2. Allora, si comincia o no?
3. Si parte?
4. Si va?

Ciao ciao 
Emma


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## Einstein

He answers to the name of Tonio  ?


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## Roo Boy

Emma Neve said:


> Pretty common, actually...
> 
> 1. Si fa una passeggiata?
> 2. Allora, si comincia o no?
> 3. Si parte?
> 4. Si va?
> 
> Ciao ciao
> Emma



Allora, stai dicendo che si può usare la passiva "Si" + la terza persona singolare invece della prima persona plurale?


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## Roo Boy

Einstein said:


> He answers to the name of Tonio  ?



Forse si può usare questo se Tonio è un cane.


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## Emma Neve

Roo Boy said:


> Allora, stai dicendo che si può usare la passiva "Si" + la terza persona singolare invece della prima persona plurale?


 
Sì Roo, è un'alternativa che viene usata spesso. 

Bene, si parte! / Bene, partiamo!
E adesso si comincia! / E adesso cominciamo!
Si va o no? / Andiamo o no?
Ma quando si arriva? / Ma quando arriviamo?

Ciao, Emma


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## furs

Emma Neve e' probabilmente toscana. Nell'uso toscano, si usa quasi esclusivamente la forma "si+ 3 perss. sing.". D'altronde, nel nord italia questo uso e' molto sporadico.


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## Emma Neve

Sono veneta furs  
Qui (nord-est) si usa molto a dire la verità. Forse però più in modo non formale, o per esprimere ironia/insofferenza o per mettere una certa enfasi nel discorso o altro. 

Emma


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## neuromatico

Grazie Emma e furs.

Ogni tanto si ha bisogna  di confermare cosa succede nel mondo reale!

Potrei farvi un'alta domanda?
Nelle altre regioni del paese, quest'espressione sarebbe capita o dovrei evitarla?

Ciao,
neuro


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## Emma Neve

Eheheh Neuro... what about a poll?
Scherzi a parte, si tratta di espressioni piuttosto diffuse, in tutt'Italia, e verrebbero sicuramente capite.
E adesso stacco perché _si mangia_! 

Emma


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## You little ripper!

I would translate _*si fa chiamare*_ as _*he gets everyone to call*_ *him......*


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## neuromatico

Riguardo al nostro amico Tonio, 

Non sono ancora chiaro sull’uso di “si” con “chiamare” nella frase, se si riferisce al verbo riflessivo o all’espressione “si fa”? 

Ciao e Grazie


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## brian

_Si chiama Antonio_ and _Si fa chiamare Tonio_ are not really impersonal constructions like "Stasera si va al cinema" or "Adesso si comincia." The "si" in the latter constructions is impersonal, while the "si" in the former is objective and gives the phrase a very _passive_ feeling to it.

_*Si* chiama Antonio = He calls *himself* Antonio = He is called Antonio._

_*Si *fa chiamare Tonio = He makes *himself *(be) called_ _Tonio = He is made called Tonio._

Obviously these translations cannot work well in idiomatic English, but I think they serve to show how the construction works. I think Charles' translation in post 22--"he gets everyone to call him"--is probably the closest to the Italian, but I prefer the more idiomatic "he goes by." Now compare with an impersonal construction:

_*Si* va al ristorante = *One* goes to the ristorante._

There is no passivity in this construction. You can't say "it is gone to the restaurant" or anything.

Anyway, a lot of this stuff doesn't really matter in the end because you can still understand what is being said. But understanding how passive nuances are working will help you better understand, for example, the difference between "Là si mangia la pizza" and "Là si manga bene." A lot of times, however, there is no real difference in meaning.

As for the use of "si" in impersonal constructions in place of "we," French does that (with "on") way more rampantly than Italian, though it still does pop up every now and then in Italian.


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## giovannino

brian8733 said:


> _Si chiama Antonio_ and _Si fa chiamare Tonio_ ....the "si" in the former is objective and gives the phrase a very _passive_ feeling to it.
> 
> _*Si* chiama Antonio = He calls *himself* Antonio = He is called Antonio._
> 
> _*Si *fa chiamare Tonio = He makes *himself *(be) called_ _Tonio = He is made called Tonio._


 
As for _si chiama Antonio _I'm sure Necsus will point out that _chiamarsi _in this case is not a reflexive verb but a _verbo pronominale intransitivo_:

*chiamarsi *v.pronom.intr.
1a avere nome: _mio padre si chiama Antonio_; _«Come ti chiami?» «Mi chiamo Enrico Rossi»_ 
1b in espressioni enfatiche, essere: _questo si chiama parlare chiaramente!_; _questo si chiama caffè!_ 

However this is one case where using this label (pronominale intransitivo) doesn't seem to be of much help to a foreign learner. 

As for _Si fa chiamare Tonio _I totally agree with your analysis. Adding _dagli amici (by his friends) _makes the passive meaning even more evident:

_He makes (fa) himself (si = sé) be called (chiamare) Tonio by his friends (dagli amici)_


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## neuromatico

Hi Brian,

I was actually referring to the idiomatic use of "si fa", as in "shall we", not the conventional passive "one does". Look northward a few posts. Although I had thought the same as you about "si fa chiamare", I was hoping for confirmation from a native speaker.

Thanks, anyway.


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## brian

Ah, no the "si fa" in "si fa chiamare Tonio" is not the same as that in "si fa una passeggiata."


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## neuromatico

Thanks, giovannino. That removes any shadow of doubt.

And Brian, I meant no offense. It's just that there are times when only a _madrelingua_ will do!


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## giovannino

neuromatico said:


> I was actually referring to the idiomatic use of "si fa", as in "shall we"


 
Well, I agree with Emma that it is a very common use. I'm pretty sure sentences like "che si fa stasera?" or Emma's



> Bene, si parte! / Bene, partiamo!
> E adesso si comincia! / E adesso cominciamo!
> Si va o no? / Andiamo o no?
> Ma quando si arriva? / Ma quando arriviamo?


 
are used all over Italy. Emma is from the north-east. I'm from the south and I also use them all the time.


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## GavinW

Roo Boy said:


> Forse si può usare questo se Tonio è un cane.


 
Not so in my part of the English-speaking world, at least, where "he answers to the name of" is fine. I see it as a humorous extension of the dog's name meaning, and as such is totally OK...

Also, my vote goes to "he calls himself Tonio". Other translations are also OK (eg: "goes by (the name of) Tonio"). If there is a difference between some of these, the shift in emphasis is very slight.

On the other hand, the idea of "getting other people to call him" (etc) is not so convincing. Too mechanical and roundabout. The process linking a person's decision to adopt a particular nickname, and the implementation of that decision (ie the use of the nickname) is normally regarded as pretty instantaneous and problem-free. Above all, it's automatic, to all intents and purposes. He adopts the name, and people use the name. Any reference to the process whereby he tries to encourage other people to use it are pretty unnecessary (and misleading).


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## giovannino

neuromatico said:


> And Brian, I meant no offense. It's just that there are times when only a _madrelingua_ will do!


 
I wouldn't be so sure Brian often does a better job of analysing complex Italian structures than any of us _madrelingua._ That's partly because he brings a fresh perspective to it whereas we often rely on the traditional (and in my opinion often outdated and inadequate) parsing categories we were taught at school.



			
				GavinW said:
			
		

> Any reference to the process whereby he tries to encourage other people to use it are pretty unnecessary (and misleading).


 
I agree, Gavin, as far as translating _si fa chiamare _is concerned. However I think it's useful to think of the sentence in the way Brian analyzed it (i.e. as a structure with a passive sense) purely in order to understand this construction.


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## brian

Hi Gavin,

I agree with you about the use of "get," which is why I prefer something like "he goes by." But I did condone it above as being a close _literal_ translation of the Italian, purely for learning/understanding purposes. The problem is that "fa" is difficult to translate in many Italian constructions, like "far fare" what not. Other options are:

_He *has* people call him Tony.
He *makes* people call him Tony.
_
Obviously, whether you use "has," "make," "get," or any other word, you are going to have a certain nuance in English that "fa" doesn't carry, and you will also lose a certain nuance that "fa" does carry. I think it's still worth it to at least point out such possible translations as a tool for learners. I don't really think that in such a translation we are really saying that Antonio actively does something to have people call him Tonio.

Anyway, in retrospect, maybe "has" is better than "gets."


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## GavinW

Hi Brian,
The points you make are faultless, again.
;-)

(EDIT:... IMHO, 'natch)


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## neuromatico

Thanks to both of you!

With my enlightened comprehension , I think that the translation most faithful to the Italian would be, "...he makes himself known as Tonio", but this is much too stiff for modern English. 
Gavin's "...he calls himself Tonio", would be the modern equivalent.

"...he goes by Tonio" is probably the most commonly heard AE version, although this construction  removes attribution, as do "..he's called.." or "...he's known as...", i.e. he could have chosen the diminutive himself or it could have been imposed on him by his parents (and he could hate it).


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## L'equilibrista

Hi,
This has been a really interesting discussion!

I think that the choice depends on whether the person in question has more or less willingly chosen to be called that way or simply everyone calls him/he's known that way...

Personally I think that "goes by", though idiomatic, makes you loose something about the meaning.
Is it possible to say "he lets himself be called..." ?


Now, could you suggest the best one for this ?

_"Il corsaro Constantine Crake, sir Crake, come si fa chiamare.”_

I thought about:
_"The corsair C.C., Sir Crake, how he lets everyone call him_."


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## byrne

L'equilibrista said:


> Hi,
> This has been a really interesting discussion!
> 
> I think that the choice depends on whether the person in question has more or less willingly chosen to be called that way or simply everyone calls him/he's known that way...
> 
> Personally I think that "goes by", though idiomatic, makes you loose something about the meaning.
> Is it possible to say "he lets himself be called..." ?
> 
> 
> Now, could you suggest the best one for this ?
> 
> _"Il corsaro Constantine Crake, sir Crake, come si fa chiamare.”_
> 
> I thought about:
> _"The corsair C.C., Sir Crake, how he lets everyone call him_."


 
_as he likes to be called/known....?_


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## Magnusson

neuromatico said:


> "Si fa" is an interesting passive construction that doesn't translate well into English.
> Unless I've missed the boat and "si" is part of chiamarsi!



Direi di no. "Si" fa parte di "fa". Si chiama "si passivante", cioè rende passivo il verbo che segue. In pratica è come se dicesse (in un italiano che nessuno direbbe): lui fa se stesso chiamare.


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## Magnusson

Roo Boy said:


> The "si" refers to chiamare (chiamarsi). The sentence makes no sense if the "si" is forming a passive "si fa". It would translate literally as something like "He calls himself Antonio but one does to call Tonio" which makes no sense at all.



Al contrario, si tratta di un "si passivante".



Roo Boy said:


> If you include a subject pronoun, the sentence would be:
> 
> "Si chiama Antonio, ma *lui *si fa chiamare Tonio."
> 
> I would translate this as:
> "His name is Antonio but he uses the name Tonio".
> or
> "His name is Antonio but he goes by the name Tonio".



Sarebbe una traduzione non fedele, perchè il senso è che lui vuole che gli altri lo chiamino Tonio.




Roo Boy said:


> If you were asking someone or a group of people whether they would like to go for a walk, you wouldn't use the passive "Si fa una passeggiata?". This means "Does one go for a walk?" You would ask "Facciamo una passegiata?"



"Si fa una passeggiata" potrebbe anche essere capito, ma sarebbe comunque un errore, perchè la forma corretta sarebbe "Facciamo una passeggiata?" E' possibile comprenderlo dal fatto che il soggetto è "noi" e la coniugazione corretta relativa alla prima persona plurale è "facciamo".


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## Magnusson

Roo Boy said:


> The "si" refers to chiamare (chiamarsi). The sentence makes no sense if the "si" is forming a passive "si fa". It would translate literally as something like "He calls himself Antonio but one does to call Tonio" which makes no sense at all.
> 
> If you include a subject pronoun, the sentence would be:
> 
> "Si chiama Antonio, ma *lui *si fa chiamare Tonio."
> 
> I would translate this as:
> "His name is Antonio but he uses the name Tonio".
> or
> "His name is Antonio but he goes by the name Tonio".
> 
> 
> 
> If you were asking someone or a group of people whether they would like to go for a walk, you wouldn't use the passive "Si fa una passeggiata?". This means "Does one go for a walk?" You would ask "Facciamo una passegiata?"





Emma Neve said:


> Sì Roo, è un'alternativa che viene usata spesso.
> 
> Bene, si parte! / Bene, partiamo!
> E adesso si comincia! / E adesso cominciamo!
> Si va o no? / Andiamo o no?
> Ma quando si arriva? / Ma quando arriviamo?
> 
> Ciao, Emma



Sono d'accordo che tutte le espressioni precedenti sarebbero capite, ma hanno significati diversi e potrebbero essere a volte fraintese. In ogni caso non sono corrette se non intese nei seguenti significati:

Bene, si parte! = TUTTI partono
Bene, partiamo! = NOI partiamo
E adesso si comincia! = TUTTI cominciano
E adesso cominciamo! = NOI cominciamo
Ma quando si arriva? = TUTTI arrivano
Ma quando arriviamo? = NOI arriviamo


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## Einstein

L'equilibrista said:


> _"Il corsaro Constantine Crake, sir Crake, come si fa chiamare.”_
> 
> I thought about:
> _"The corsair C.C., Sir Crake, *how as* he lets everyone call him_."


I think "come si fa chiamare" means he wants to be called Sir Crake. If you say "as he lets everyone call him" it means that he has resigned himself to being called Sir Crake.

*"The corsair C.C., or Sir Crake, as he likes/prefers to be called."*

*PS* I see that *byrne* has already said this; excuse the repetition! Anyway, "let" means "permit".


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