# Catalan: Catalan in the classrooms



## Cecilio

I was trying to read the posts in a recent thread about Catalan language initiated by Lazarus1907 (Spanish in Catalonia: almost illegal), but they were too many and, when I reached the end I discovered the thread had been (quite reasonably) closed.

I didn't want to add to the already complex stream of ideas, some of them quite interesting, I simply wanted to contribute with a simple case for discussion. Let's imagine the following situation:

A teacher in a Catalan school addresses his/her students in Catalan. Then, one of the students raises his/her hand and says he/she doesn't speak Catalan and asks the teacher to continue the lesson in Spanish. What should the teacher do?

In my opinion there is no doubt: the teacher should go on speaking in Catalan. No doubt.

And this is not an imaginary situation but a very real one.


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## Jhorer Brishti

Cecilio said:
			
		

> And this is not an imaginary situation but a very real one.


 

  I'm sorry I know much too little about the subject to actually contribute anything knowledgeable or pertinent but when you say that this is not an imaginary situation but a very real one, do you mean you have actually witnessed this taking place?


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## Cecilio

I have witnessed it, yes. And I have heard of many other similar cases.


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## betulina

Hi Cecilio,

You are talking about cases at universities, aren't you? It has happened to me, too, and in such cases the professors are the only ones that can decide which language they use in the classroom. It's absolutely up to them. Some go on with their language; some change; some ask the rest of the class and the majority wins. It's absolutely up to them.

If it's not at a university, then I think the "vehicular language" of the school (which it seems is Catalan according to your example) should rule. New students who don't know Catalan (I'm talking about new immigrants) get extra Catalan lessons (and Spanish lessons).

Cheers.


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## Fernando

I will complete the curiosity of Cecilio with another question:

A teacher in a Catalan school addresses his/her students in Spanish. Then, one of the students raises his/her hand and says he/she doesn't speak Spanish and asks the teacher to continue the lesson in Catalan. What should the teacher do?


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## Cecilio

All teachers working for the Catalan Education Authority are required to teach in Catalan, with only one exception: teachers of Spanish language (obviously).  Therefore, the most logical thing for the teacher to do is to continue the lesson in Catalan.


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## Dr. Quizá

It's said Catalonian civil servants must know Catalan in order to attend Catalan speaking people, who have the right to be attended in the language of their choice, but there's no possible choice in classrooms 

I friend of mine told me he, as an Erasmus student in Scandinavia (in Sweden, I think) asked the professor to speak slower in order to understand the explanation and the professor, instead of doing that, gave the lesson in English! I was so impressed when I heard that!


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## Cecilio

And if the teacher doesn't speak Catalan, then this teacher should probably try to find a job somewhere else.


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## Dr. Quizá

Cecilio said:
			
		

> Therefore, the most logical thing for the teacher to do is to continue the lesson in Catalan.



I disagree. The most logical thing is not to use Catalan as mandatory (but in Catalan classes). The "vehicular" keyword is arguablely illegal.


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## Cecilio

The only mandatory thing is that the teachers, in order to be teachers in Catalonia, must have qualifications in Catalan. This is unquestionable, and it is a very sound and reasonable policy. As for "vehicular languages", it is generally assumed that in Catalan educational institutions this language is always Catalan, with the only exception of the "Val d'Aran", where their own local language, "aranés", receives special treatment.


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## Fernando

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I friend of mine told me he, as an Erasmus student in Scandinavia (in Sweden, I think) asked the professor to speak slower in order to understand the explanation and the professor, instead of doing that, gave the lesson in English! I was so impressed when I heard that!


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## betulina

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> It's said Catalonian civil servants must know Catalan in order to attend Catalan speaking people, who have the right to be attended in the language of their choice, but there's no possible choice in classrooms



For the moment I'll assume we are talking about universities. As I said, it's up to the professor. University studies subjects have usually different groups, and there are usually some given in Spanish (because the professor prefers it), so you just need to get informed and choose that group. If there is no group with a Spanish-speaking professor (or no group with a Catalan-speaking professor and you would prefer it) there's nothing to do about it.


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## Cecilio

I think the situation in primary and secondary schools is far more interesting here, because there is no actual choice for the students in Catalonia. If they don't speak Catalan, they are normally given extra classes. And if they don't speak Spanish, they are ALSO GIVEN extra lessons in Spanish. Yes. Both Catalan and Spanish are considered the official languages of Catalonia, but only Catalan is used as the language of school teaching, that is, for maths, history, etc. This is the situation in Catalan schools.


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## Dr. Quizá

The new "estatut" (which starts to work today, BTW) says Catalan is "vehicular" and preferential in all public admin. and media.


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## Cecilio

And I agree with it. It's perfectly ok in my opinion. And I think there is only a minority of people in Catalonia against this idea, a very very small minority.


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## betulina

Yes, ok, talking about primary and secondary school then... I think having lessons in Catalan is the best way for non-Catalan-speaking children to learn it and reach a satisfactory level. If a student doesn't understand it at all, then I'm sure he will receive some extra lessons. If everybody changes to Spanish when speaking to this pupil, then he will never learn Catalan. I'm sure everybody speaks Spanish to him outside school (and inside, except the teachers), so if somebody does it will eventually be better for him.


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## Dr. Quizá

betulina said:
			
		

> If everybody changes to Spanish when speaking to this pupil, then he will never learn Catalan. I'm sure everybody speaks Spanish to him outside school (and inside, except the teachers), so if somebody does it will eventually be better for him.



What are Catalan lessons for, then?


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## Kräuter_Fee

It is obvious that if someone goes to a Catalan school they have to speak Catalan. I cannot imagine who would go study there without speaking Catalan (you say it happens though).
I find it extremely unfair that Catalan students, for instance, can study all over in Spain. However, students from Andalucía, for example, cannot study over there because of the language. 

What bothers me most is that it seems that Catalonia and Catalan as well as Madrid have a huge importance in this country and the rest of provinces do not exist... or that's what it seems to me.

I am not against Catalan or something, but that's the way I see this issue.


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## Cecilio

In Catalonia there Catalan language lessons in much the same way as there are Spanish lessons in other places like León or Salamanca. In fact, they are sometimes called simply "language lessons" (in Catalan: "classes de llengua"). And I suppose that in León or Salamanca, as well as in Catalonia, non-Spanish-speaking students are provided with extra lessons to teach them Spanish.


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## natasha2000

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> What are Catalan lessons for, then?


 
To learn grammar rules and other language things, I suppose. I also had Serbian lessons in school, and I perfectly spoke Serbian at hte age of 7. They are lessons of a mother tongue, like there are English lessons in English speaking countries, or Spanish lessons in the rest of Spain.


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## Cecilio

Hi, Kräuter_fee, I think it's a good idea to stick to the situation in Catalonia rather than adding more complexity to the issue. But you're right, the use of languges in the classroom is a much more complex problem in Spain, for example in the Comunity where I live (Valencia), which is also a Catalan-speaking area. But as I said, it is more advisable to try to prevent the issue from spreading endlessly.

And students from Andalucia CAN study in Catalonia, and in fact they DO. The only thing is: they must sooner or later learn Catalan.


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## betulina

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> What are Catalan lessons for, then?



The truth is that two or four hours (I'm not sure about how many they get nowadays) a week of Catalan lessons for a Spanish-speaking student (that is, from a Spanish-speaking family and most probably living in a Spanish-speaking environment) are not enough for him to reach a satisfactory level. Sadly enough, I can tell you first hand. They don't take it seriously and just want to pass the exam and forget about it. If they hear speaking in Catalan for a few hours it gives them a sense of "quotidianity" and results are much better.

On the other hand, I'm assuming that the example Cecilio gave is about a new immigrant student, not knowing Catalan at all. If everybody addresses to him in Spanish, he won't learn Catalan.

That's what I have seen here.


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## Kräuter_Fee

Cecilio said:
			
		

> Hi, Kräuter_fee, I think it's a good idea to stick to the situation in Catalonia rather than adding more complexity to the issue. But you're right, the use of languges in the classroom is a much more complex problem in Spain, for example in the Comunity where I live (Valencia), which is also a Catalan-speaking area. But as I said, it is more advisable to try to prevent the issue from spreading endlessly.
> 
> And students from Andalucia CAN study in Catalonia, and in fact they DO. The only thing is: they must sooner or later learn Catalan.



Well, when I mentioned other problems in Spain I wasn't talking about linguistic problems, I was talking in general. There are many problems in other provinces about which nobody talks about.

If I went to Catalonia... I wouldn't want to learn Catalan. I think it's a waste of time, no offense, it's a language and it has its history and so on, I respect that. But why would I want to learn Catalan... I could learn something which would actually be useful. Catalan is everything but useful. It does not foster communication, it does the opposite... and languages are supposed to be a means of communication, not an impediment.


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## Dr. Quizá

betulina said:
			
		

> The truth is that two or four hours (I'm not sure about how many they get nowadays) a week of Catalan lessons for a Spanish-speaking student (that is, from a Spanish-speaking family and most probably living in a Spanish-speaking environment) are not enough for him to reach a satisfactory level. Sadly enough, I can tell you first hand. They don't take it seriously and just want to pass the exam and forget about it. If they hear speaking in Catalan for a few hours it gives them a sense of "quotidianity" and results are much better.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm assuming that the example Cecilio gave is about a new immigrant student, not knowing Catalan at all. If everybody addresses to him in Spanish, he won't learn Catalan.
> 
> That's what I have seen here.



I ask you to switch "Catalan" and "Spanish" in what you've written. I think this will explain my POV.


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## Cecilio

Who said you have an obligation to learn Catalan? You are free to do whatever you want. But if you wanted to become a teacher in Catalonia, then you would have to learn Catalan. It's as simple as that. Saying that something is useful or useless makes no sense here. It just depends on what kinds of things you want to do in life. And I can tell you one thing: there are a lot of people in Barcelona (the capital city of Catalonia) who don't speak a word of either Spanish or Catalan, and they have a perfectly metropolitan life in the city. But that's their life, the life of the chosen few. The education of people in general, in the context of their comunity, is quite a different matter.


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## maxiogee

Who would enrol in a school in a multilingual area without ascertaining that they would be able to participate fully in the educational process there.

We have all-Irish schools here in Ireland - where everything is taught through the medium of Irish. I cannot imagine any parent sending a child to one of these with no knowledge of Irish, or not enough to enable participation.


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## heidita

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Who would enrol in a school in a multilingual area without ascertaining that they would be able to participate fully in the educational process there.
> 
> We have all-Irish schools here in Ireland - where everything is taught through the medium of Irish. I cannot imagine any parent sending a child to one of these with no knowledge of Irish, or not enough to enable participation.


 
Maxiogee, I think the problem is more complex here, as as far as I know ALL Catalan schools are ALL Catalan. So, if you are a foreigner (for example south american, marrokian) and have no knowledge of the language but do speak Spanish, this is of no use. Parents have no choice.
I wonder, though, does the choice of an ALL Spanish school exist? Possibly it does on a very costly basis. But official schools do not have this kind of multilingual basis. EVERYTHING, except the Spanish language, is taught in Catalan.


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## heidita

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I friend of mine told me he, as an Erasmus student in Scandinavia (in Sweden, I think) asked the professor to speak slower in order to understand the explanation and the professor, instead of doing that, gave the lesson in English! I was so impressed when I heard that!


 
Now, that's really surprising! I wonder why this should be such an_ issue_ in this country. 
Other countries do not seem to have this problem. I can assure you, when a Bavarian starts talking in his dialect, I am completely blank. But schools are always all German.


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## Cecilio

heidita said:
			
		

> Maxiogee, I think the problem is more complex here, as as far as I know ALL Catalan schools are ALL Catalan. So, if you are a foreigner (for example south american, marrokian) and have no knowledge of the language but do speak Spanish, this is of no use. Parents have no choice.
> I wonder, though, does the choice of an ALL Spanish school exist? Possibly it does on a very costly basis. But official schools do not have this kind of multilingual basis. EVERYTHING, except the Spanish language, is taught in Catalan.



I think all Catalan schools use Catalan as their vehicular language, including private schools, but I'm not so sure in this case. Is suppose they need to say 'officially' that they  use Catalan, in order to get money from the governement. Most private or semi-private schools in Catalonia, or in Spain, get a lot of funding from the state (in some cases, I think, too much). But do they really abide by the law? I don't know about first hand.

What about other countries? Are school-language regulations applicable for all types of schools, both private and state-owned?


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## Xerinola

Fernando said:
			
		

> A teacher in a Catalan school addresses his/her students in Spanish. Then, one of the students raises his/her hand and says he/she doesn't speak Spanish and asks the teacher to continue the lesson in Catalan. What should the teacher do?


 
*ESTA SITUACIÓN ES IMPOSIBLE*. NO TE VAS A ENCONTRAR CON UN ALUMNO ESPAÑOL QUE ESTÉ ESCOLARIZADO Y QUE NO HABLE CASTELLANO. 

X.


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## pickypuck

Cecilio said:
			
		

> What about other countries? Are school-language regulations applicable for all types of schools, both private and state-owned?


 
Afaik, private don't receive money, but "concertados" (semi-private, or semi-public schools). Concertados are schools that belong to a religious order and had to adapt to the public rules to receive funds. They were usually only for boys or for girls, but now they are for both because public schools in Spain are like this. To work in these schools, you don't need to pass a competitive exam but a personal interview or pull strings because the schools choose the teachers directly. This is one of the differences with respect to the public schools, where a competitive exam is compulsory. But I find it very strange if a concertado doesn't follow its Dirección Provincial de Educación guidelines.

¡Olé!


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## Cecilio

It is well known that in Spain even schools which are strictly private, like those belonging to Opus Dei, do get some money from the government. bBut the situation about "semi-private" schools, or "escuelas concertadas" is much more serious. They do get A LOT of money from the state, and they make up some sort of "parallel" educational institution. I wonder if that has some impact in the use of languages in teaching. What about countries like Ireland or Canada? How do they use their languages in the various types of schools?


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## pickypuck

Cecilio said:
			
		

> It is well known that in Spain even schools which are strictly private, like those belonging to Opus Dei, do get some money from the government. bBut the situation about "semi-private" schools, or "escuelas concertadas" is much more serious. They do get A LOT of money from the state, and they make up some sort of "parallel" educational institution. I wonder if that has some impact in the use of languages in teaching. What about countries like Ireland or Canada? How do they use their languages in the various types of schools?


 
Well, for me it wasn't well known at all that Opus Dei's schools receive public funds. It's hard to believe that Mr Rodríguez Ibarra's Government does that. Maybe in other regions with a Government near to this ideology... but it's really hard to believe... maybe I'm kind of naïve. I studied in a public school but some of my cousins did in a concertado and we studied the same. Maybe other concertados make up some sort of parallel eductional institution... but I think that also happens in public schools.

¡Olé!


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## Fernando

betulina said:
			
		

> I think having lessons in Catalan is the best way for non-Catalan-speaking children to learn it and reach a satisfactory level. If a student doesn't understand it at all, then I'm sure he will receive some extra lessons. If everybody changes to Spanish when speaking to this pupil, then he will never learn Catalan. I'm sure everybody speaks Spanish to him outside school (and inside, except the teachers), so if somebody does it will eventually be better for him.



Allow me to paraphrase your comment:

"I think having lessons in Spanish is the best way for non-Spanish-speaking children to learn it and reach a satisfactory level. If a student doesn't understand it at all, then I'm sure he will receive some extra lessons. If everybody changes to Catalan when speaking to this pupil, then he will never learn Spanish. I'm sure everybody speaks Catalan to him outside school (and inside, except the teachers), so if somebody does it will eventually be better for him."


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## Fernando

pickypuck said:
			
		

> Well, for me it wasn't well known at all that Opus Dei's schools receive public funds. It's hard to believe that Mr Rodríguez Ibarra's Government does that. Maybe in other regions with a Government near to this ideology... but it's really hard to believe... maybe I'm kind of naïve. I studied in a public school but some of my cousins did in a concertado and we studied the same. Maybe other concertados make up some sort of parallel eductional institution... but I think that also happens in public schools.



It is off-topic but, anyway:

You have an Opus Dei school in Badajoz. "Concertados" receive the money regardless who is his owner and the State has no right to deny the money. For your relief, I am sure that the bellotakari would do it if he could.

Of course, concertados shall teach the same signatures ("Plan de Estudios") of the rest of the School system. If they want to teach additional classes (from Chess to Afro-Cuban Dance) they can. They are subject to public inspection.

I am uncertain if totally private schools receive some kind of subsidies. I think not or very little (though they also follow the same Plan de Estudios).


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## Cecilio

Fernando, I don't know exactly what you mean with your "rephrasing". Are you suggesting that Cataln schools should change the way they do things and adapt it to the fact that a very small percentage of their students do not know Catalan? I suppose that, seen from a distance, the idea of a boy or girl from let's say Castilla entering a Catalan school and being taught in Catalan may look like a terrible nightmare for this person, but I can tell you that in most cases, in nearly ALL cases, specially if things are done well and all students are provided with the right extra classes, etc., the experience is satisfactory. Do you think that a school with 1,500 students must change its basic working principles because there are two or three students that don't speak the vehicular language? You don't change the system for that reason, you just try to find solutions for these people.


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## Fernando

Rewording also:



> Are you suggesting that Cataln schools should change the way they do things and adapt it to the fact that a very small percentage of their students do not know SPANISH?



I am saying that I do not understand why in a bilingual society the vehicular language is always Catalan. 

If the teacher is Spanish-speaking, why should he not teach in Spanish to a classroom where everybody understand Spanish?


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## betulina

Fernando said:
			
		

> Allow me to paraphrase your comment:
> 
> "I think having lessons in Spanish is the best way for non-Spanish-speaking children to learn it and reach a satisfactory level. If a student doesn't understand it at all, then I'm sure he will receive some extra lessons. If everybody changes to Catalan when speaking to this pupil, then he will never learn Spanish. I'm sure everybody speaks Catalan to him outside school (and inside, except the teachers), so if somebody does it will eventually be better for him."



Right, thank you, Fernando, that's what Dr.Quizá asked me to do. So ok, we've got this situation. And a good example of this kind of student: me. I was one of these Catalan-speaking students going to an only Catalan-speaking school and I even started having lessons OF Spanish at the age of 10/11 (5º de EGB -now I know they start at "parvulario".) I can tell you that at that age I already knew Spanish (we didn't begin with "Hola, me llamo María"). And my Spanish is as good as that of anybody else (and no, I haven't studied it longer than the average).

This is because "not everybody speaks Catalan to me", nor "spoke" at that time outside school. Catalan people learn Spanish from the society. I think I'm a good example of that (and my brothers, my Catalan-speaking classmates, etc.). It would be wonderful if that happened the other way around, yes, wonderful! But unfortunately that is not the general case. 

Spanish is the strong language here. It happens all the time that if two people are talking in Catalan and a third one arrives and start to talk in Spanish (and there's nothing bad in it), the others change to Spanish (I mean when this third person does know Catalan, of course). So the only way to have everybody knowing Catalan is this kind of school. 
This is my opinion.


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## Cecilio

Societies have no "vehicular language", but schools do.

Using the Catalan language they way they do in Catalonia is an effective and reasonable way to keep the language alive. I don't know any other way to avoid the disappearance of our language in front of the massive influence of a giant language such as Spanish. I don't really think there is another way, but I suppose there are some people outside Catalan-speaking areas who are not so worried about the future of Catalan.


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## betulina

Cecilio said:
			
		

> Societies have no "vehicular language", but schools do.
> 
> Using the Catalan language they way they do in Catalonia is an effective and reasonable way to keep the language alive. I don't know any other way to avoid the disappearance of our language in front of the massive influence of a giant language such as Spanish. I don't really think there is another way, but I suppose there are some people outside Catalan-speaking areas who are not so worried about the future of Catalan.



I totally agree with you, Cecilio. This is not a perfect bilingual society, but I think that unfortunately it is hard to see from outside.


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## pickypuck

Fernando said:
			
		

> It is off-topic but, anyway:
> 
> You have an Opus Dei school in Badajoz. "Concertados" receive the money regardless who is his owner and the State has no right to deny the money.


 
In fact there are two, one for boys and one for girls. And yes, there would be a right if for example the school wants to become an only-boys or only-girls one.

As I said in the other post, independently of the fact that the teaching language is Catalan, all people finish the Secondary School knowing both Catalan and Spanish. If it is not the case, it's the attitude of the pupil towards the language.


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## maxiogee

Cecilio said:
			
		

> It is well known that



It is well known that … some things are not as well known as some people think 




			
				Cecilio said:
			
		

> What about countries like Ireland or Canada? How do they use their languages in the various types of schools?


Irish ls little spoken in Ireland - for a huge variety of reasons (which need not detain us here) but there are schools where everything is taught through Irish. Most schools teach through English. Both languages are officially recognised.


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## Fernando

I dislike again the "Catalan-is-a-tiny-language" approach. Catalan is not a bonsai that needs to be kept from cold and rain and "bad influences" to stay alive. If Catalan is to die its enemy is English, and it will suffer the same as Spanish. Meanwhile, as you can see for the language I am writing, I do not consider English as my enemy.



			
				betulina said:
			
		

> Catalan people learn Spanish from the society. I think I'm a good example of that (and my brothers, my Catalan-speaking classmates, etc.).



I still can not understand why Spanish-speaking Catalans can not learn Catalan from the society and they need more than their Catalan classes (or half the classes).

It may be anecdotical, but I had a (nice and intelligent, I must say) mate in University, from the Plana de Vic. Well, their Spanish level was less than functional. Obviously he was not so dumb and considering that the languages are close enough, in some weeks he got a functional level. 

The Catalan school system does not guarantee a good (functional) Spanish level (does it guarantee a good English level?). As you have suggested, the Catalan-speaking guys will have (most of them when working) to learn Spanish in the hard way.

The Spanish-speaking guys will lose their right to be educated in their mother language and will have Catalan as culture language, while Spanish remains as family language.

As you have said it, and I agree here, the situation is not so dramatic since Spanish is strong enough to filter through society (media, science, books, etc.), but the institutional approach is always the same: only messages in one language. If instead of Spanish we would be talking about swahili, imagine how many  people will reach puberty speaking in Swahili.



			
				betulina said:
			
		

> Spanish is the strong language here. It happens all the time that if two people are talking in Catalan and a third one arrives and start to talk in Spanish (and there's nothing bad in it), the others change to Spanish (I mean when this third person does know Catalan, of course). So the only way to have everybody knowing Catalan is this kind of school.
> This is my opinion.



You are describing that Spanish is working as lingua franca. I love linguas francas. What I hear about Catalonia (second handed, but not third nor fourth) is that the Spanish-speaking can shift also many times to Catalan. And that is perfect to me, for the record.


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## Cecilio

Catalan is not a bonsai. And the point here is not actually Catalan but Catalan in education (or any other language; in this forum evidence from other places in the world are more than welcome).

Catalan education policy has been designed in Catalonia, and if it were some sort of artificial policy imposed on people by some politicians I suppose there would be a lot of people protesting constantly. But this is not the case. In general, the education system works properly and people have accepted it quite generally. Catalan is the vehicular language in Catalan schools because the people of Catalonia and basically happy with something like that. I don't see anythung wrong about it. And obviously there are some cultural issues behind this (defense of our language, etc.), but the consequence is a very pratical one: if you go into a Catalan school you notice it immediately.

The eduactional system in Catalonia cannot be constructed on the assumption that there are some potential students who don't speak Catalan and who might pop in one day. Doesn't it sound absolutely ridiculous? Can someone really think of a policy like that?


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## Fernando

Cecilio said:
			
		

> and if it were some sort of artificial policy imposed on people by some politicians I suppose there would be a lot of people protesting constantly.



Well, I see many people protesting. They are not the majority, but I see many people in Catalonia who dislike the situation.



			
				Cecilio said:
			
		

> the consequence is a very pratical one: if you go into a Catalan school you notice it immediately.



If you hang a barretina in every school you would have the same consequence at a lower cost.

Rewording day:



			
				Cecilio said:
			
		

> The eduactional system in Catalonia cannot be constructed on the assumption that there are some potential students who don't speak Spanish and who might pop in one day. Doesn't it sound absolutely ridiculous? Can someone really think of a policy like that?


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## heidita

pickypuck said:
			
		

> they are for both because public schools in Spain are like this. To work in these schools, you don't need to pass a competitive exam but a personal interview or pull strings because the schools choose the teachers directly. This is one of the differences with respect to the public schools, where a competitive exam is compulsory. But I find it very strange if a concertado doesn't follow its Dirección Provincial de Educación guidelines.
> 
> ¡Olé!


 
Please note that a* public school* is a private one funded by parents.


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## Fernando

Well, I assume that both Pickypuck and me meant STATE (?) school.

Thanks for the corection.


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## heidita

Fernando said:
			
		

> Well, I assume that both Pickypuck and me meant STATE (?) school.
> 
> Thanks for the corection.


 
<yes, you did.

Look here.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=207835


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## Fernando

I had noticed it. Thank you again for opening it.


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## pickypuck

heidita said:
			
		

> Please note that a* public school* is a private one funded by parents.


 
Sorry! I translated directly from Spanish. Thank you!  

¡Olé!


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## tafanari

What would happen if a student who did not speak Spanish in a school in Puerto Rico raised his or her hand and asked the teacher to switch to English? Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States and American citizens have the same rights as anybody else on that island.

I think the teacher should continue in Spanish. If you are in school in Puerto Rico, you should either know Spanish or work your way towards that goal. I wouldn't expect my children to be catered to in English in Puerto Rico and if we moved to Barcelona I would expect them to speak the language of that country regardless of the political status of Puerto Rico or Catalonia.

I don't think this is at all unreasonable. After all, if a student raised his hand in Sevilla and asked the teacher to switch to French what would happen. You're in Sevilla!


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## Cecilio

But I suppose in Puerto Rico there must be some elitist schools where only English is used. Is that so? Here in Spain we also have schools where English, French, German or other languages are used. These schools are normally very expensive and only rich people send their children there. Is that tha case in Puerto Rico as well?


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## tafanari

Fernando said:
			
		

> The important thing is reality.


The reality is that if you go to a school in Catalonia, you better learn Catalá because that's the language the people in that country decided to teach in. In that sense, it's similar to the Puerto Rican reality. It really doesn't even matter how many people speak the language natively and if Spanish were a minority language in Puerto Rico, I would still feel the same way. In many countries, in many places, schools teach in languages that most people do not speak natively. 

What matters is not how many people speak Catalá but how many people in Catalonia feel that the language of instruction should be Catalá. It looks like enough people there like things the way they are. Good for them.


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## Fernando

I see. The important thing is what "the country" thinks. The opinion of parents, children, students and teachers do not count. They voted and the majority spoke.

This is Catalonia or Quebec or France or Sweden or United States or Olivenza. We have decided you should use Catalan, French, Swedish or English or Portuñol (our "national" language) for all uses. If you do not like, do not stay here. You should be "normal", my friend, and we have decided (democratically) what "normal" is.

I assume you think the Swedish teacher in a previous post was an evil criminal, then.

Well, I am not saying your position is irrational. I understand it now. I simply disagree.


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## Cecilio

Fernando said:
			
		

> The important thing is reality.



Catalan is spoken in different areas, with different characteristics.

1-. Catalonia. Here, as we have said, there is an educational policy which states that Catalan is the vehicular language everywhere, and that people who enter the Catalan educational system without a good level of both or either of the two official languages in Catalonia (Catalan and Spanish) must have the opportunity to be given extra teaching in one or both of these languages. This system is widely accepted by the Catalan population and it has proved to be consistent, reasonable and very little controversial. Laws and policies are not eternal, and it's up to the Catalans to decide what changes they might want to implement.

2-. Roussillon. It's quite clear that the situation of Catalan here is a lot weaker, and that a policy like the one designed in Catalonia would be artificial and illogical. I don't know the details of the situation in that area, but I guess there must be some public debate on the issue.

3-. Valencian Community. In Valencian schools there is an optional system. Students (or rather their parents) can choose between Spanish or Catalan (we call it "valencià" here) as the main language in education. This system seems to work quite well in real terms, and it is, in my opinion, a good solution for the whole Valencian Community, where there are some areas where Catalan is hardly spoken. Different societies, different policies in the use of languages in eduaction. Applying the Catalan system in Valencia would be inadequate and would create great controversy. It simply would never work. Applying the Valencian system in Catalonia would have a similar effect.

4-. Balearic islands. I do not know about the situation here, so some contributions from people from the islands would be welcome.

If you look at the way things work in Catalonia and Valencia as far as languages in education are concerned, it seems to me that, after some years of controversy and public debate, the present policies show a high degree of common sense. And they seem to work quite well.

It would be interesting to hear from other places in the world, to see how they handle this complex issue.


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## GenJen54

*MOD WARNING TO EVERYBODY:*

This thread is veering wildly off course.  

This topic is also taking on an angry political tone, which was not the intent of the thread opener. The most recent thread on Catalan was closed for the same level of vitriol. If you each cannot act in a manner that is keeping with the forum guidelines of being *cordial*, then this thread, too, will be closed or pulled from view. 

 It is teetering on the edge right now.


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## tafanari

Fernando said:
			
		

> I see. The important thing is what "the country" thinks. The opinion of parents, children, students and teachers do not count. They voted and the majority spoke.



Yes. That's correct.


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## Cecilio

I couldn't agree more with you, tafanari. The important thing is that whatever is decided at the political level must be the result of people's will to participate in the decision-making process. And still more important: the Cataln educational system is not isolated from the rest of the world. It is basically the same as in the rest of Spain (laws like LOE or LOGSE also apply here), and in many respects it has to abide by European regulations and other international principles. Honestly, I can't conceive any other possible way to manage these things. Is there anything more rational than this? Is there another way, a more organizaed and civilized way to determine the educational policies of a given territory?  What's the alternative? To go back in time and do things like they were done fifty years ago?


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## Fernando

You are right this situation works too many times in too many places. But that is not the reason to impose it in all situation.

That is the kind of things that Franco thought: "That is Spain, speak Spanish, stupid". And please, do not say to me that it was not democratic. Unluckily, a democratic process would not have had other result (eg: Rousillon/Rossellò).


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## tafanari

Fernando said:
			
		

> You are right this situation works too many times in too many places. But that is not the reason to impose it in all situation.
> 
> That is the kind of things that Franco thought: "That is Spain, speak Spanish, stupid". And please, do not say to me that it was not democratic. Unluckily, a democratic process would not have had other result (eg: Rousillon/Rossellò).



I guess that it's in the nature of schools to impose something. English is not the language of many people in my city but still, because a collective decision was made, English is the language of instruction in many communities. Including parts of Miami Dade and Laredo, Texas, where 90 percent of the people speak Spanish as a native language.

"This is America, speak English!" may be an imposition but so are many other aspects of education that are more or less controversial. You are going to have to pick one main language and that one main language is not going to be the main language of everybody in many cases, and especially in increasingly cosmopolitan places like Catalunya, some people will be disadvantaged. But you have to make a choice.


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## Fernando

Cecilio said:
			
		

> Honestly, I can't conceive any other possible way to manage these things. Is there anything more rational than this? Is there another way, a more organizaed and civilized way to determine the educational policies of a given territory?  What's the alternative?
> 
> You have described the Valencian system. It is OK to me. If the teacher wants to speak in a language that everybody in the class speaks. Why can't he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To go back in time and do things like they were done fifty years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The situation now is getting more and more close to what "they were done 50 years ago", with languages interchanged.
Click to expand...


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## Fernando

tafanari said:
			
		

> You are going to have to pick one main language and that one main language is not going to be the main language of everybody in many cases, and especially in increasingly cosmopolitan places like Catalunya, some people will be disadvantaged. But you have to make a choice.



I would agree with you if we were talking of an homogeneous society. The cost of having one frame for a small number of students, most of them isolated, would largely offset the advantages of the education in their mother language.

Spain as a whole could have chosen the same solution: Well, man, the cheaper the better. Everybody in Spanish. Luckily, we have not chosen this. 

Catalonia have neither to choose. If one teacher speaks in Spanish or Catalan their students will understand him. Why someone have to be in disadvantage? They are discouraging the movement of teachers and students among Spanish autonomies. 

About US case: I do not know where you live, but imagine Cubans in Miami decide one day: "Well, let us get rid of English". All in all, Texas or Florida have spoken in Spanish for centuries. Most English speakers arrived no much sooner than us. Let their children study in Spanish.


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## Cecilio

Fernando said:
			
		

> You have described the Valencian system. It is OK to me. If the teacher wants to speak in a language that everybody in the class speaks. Why can't he?


Yes, I have described the Valencian system , but it is not quite like what you assume. In a civilized educational system it is not an individual who decides what language he or she is going to use as a teacher in the classroom. In an organized educational structure these decisions are made at different levels, and it is assumed that all individuals concerned must try to follow these agreements reached by consensus. This is how things work or should work. Again, I don't see how things could work otherwise. School in Spain do have representative councils where students, parents, teachers and local authorituies participate. Then you have political parties, trade unions, etc. Deciding what languages are used in education derives from a very complex process involving all these organizations. It is never the decision of one individual at a given moment, or definitely it shouldn't be so.

Again, once more Fernando, do you see any alternative to this way of dealing with the issue of languages at school? I don't.


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## Fernando

> In a civilized educational system it is not an individual who decides what language he or she is going to use as a teacher in the classroom.



Why not? I notice if the teacher decide to teach in Chinese the class could complain and the teacher should be moved to teach Chinese. But we are not talking about Chinese.

In Basque Country there are several models that the school provides, because even nationalists realize (reality imposes) that many individuals simply do not understand a word of Basque (unluckily, if you ask to me).

The previous Catalan (and Galician) model was much the same: You had several models from Catalan only to Spanish only, and nobody seemed to complain. Of course in all models (perfect to me) there were mandatory Catalan and Spanish classes. Nobody excluded, nobody felt their language was unfairly treated.


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## Cecilio

Teachers can make a lot of decisions in everyday teaching, and they do have to make them, obviously. But the decision of what language they are going to use is far above their level of responsibility. At least in a well-structured educational institution.


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## tafanari

Fernando said:
			
		

> I would agree with you if we were talking of an homogeneous society. The cost of having one frame for a small number of students, most of them isolated, would largely offset the advantages of the education in their mother language.


Now that you talk about the costs, I imagine that the people who decided to teach their children in Catalá are also the ones paying for it. If not, then I can kind of see your point.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Catalonia have neither to choose. If one teacher speaks in Spanish or Catalan their students will understand him. Why someone have to be in disadvantage? They are discouraging the movement of teachers and students among Spanish autonomies.


I think that you have a point: teaching in Spanish would hurt less people than teaching in Catalá as far as linguistic advantage is concerned but that's the way the ball bounces. I believe that, for example, recyclying makes little sense but I live in a community that recycles. Just because it's a collective decision doesn't mean it makes sense. It just means that I have to adhere to community standards or seek to convince my community that recyling doesn't make sense and is essentially a scam.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> About US case: I do not know where you live, but imagine Cubans in Miami decide one day: "Well, let us get rid of English". All in all, Texas or Florida have spoken in Spanish for centuries. Most English speakers arrived no much sooner than us. Let their children study in Spanish.


They can do that. They pay for most of the costs, their children are the ones who are going to benefit or suffer. And they are the ones who are going to have to deal with the law-suits. I really don't believe that one solution fits every single school district in the country but I do believe that people in the community should decide what solution they want. In many cases, this allows a community to make what I consider "mistakes" based on poor reasoning and misinformation (like recycling) but that's a byproduct of the democratic process.


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## Fernando

tafanari said:
			
		

> Now that you talk about the costs, I imagine that the people who decided to teach their children in Catalá are also the ones paying for it. If not, then I can kind of see your point.



As a matter of fact, it would be cheaper a Spanish only approach. The cost of recycling Spanish-speaking teachers have been huge. Moreover, since knowledge of Catalan is a big plus and knowledge of Spanish is not evaluated some of them have quit and replaced for less scientifically good teachers that have best Catalan qualifications.



			
				tafanari said:
			
		

> In many cases, this allows a community to make what I consider "mistakes" based on poor reasoning and misinformation (like recycling) but that's a byproduct of the democratic process.



Agreed. But this is exactly what I am doing: pointing out that it is a mistake, it goes against Spanish Constitution, against common sense and Declaration of Human Rights.

About "community decision": If the community of Hospitalet de Llobregat (a huge town close to Barcelona) decided to follow a Spanish-Catalan 50% policy, Generalitat would override them.


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## tafanari

> About "community decision": If the community of Hospitalet de Llobregat (a huge town close to Barcelona) decided to follow a Spanish-Catalan 50% policy, Generalitat would override them.



Well, I think that's something for Hospitalet de Llobregat to ponder, no? I think it's really the same thing but on a different scale. If a student feels the system is not good, he or she may get overruled by the teacher. If a parent feels the system is not good, he or she might get overruled by the school. If a community feels the system is not good, it might get overruled by another "higher authority."  

I 'm not a Spaniard and so I don't know anything about the Spanish Constitution. But if it's really unconstitutional to teach in Catalá in Catalonia, and Spain is really a democratic state, that _error _will get corrected.


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## Mei

Fernando said:
			
		

> I will complete the curiosity of Cecilio with another question:
> 
> A teacher in a Catalan school addresses his/her students in Spanish. Then, one of the students raises his/her hand and says he/she doesn't speak Spanish and asks the teacher to continue the lesson in Catalan. What should the teacher do?


Hi there,

We have 2 official language here, in this case the teacher chose the language but I don't think it happens. All catalans that go to the university speak spanish and if you're talking about some foreign guy... no comments, he/she should speak one of the two languages, "como mínimo". 

Saludos

Mei


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## Mei

heidita said:
			
		

> Maxiogee, I think the problem is more complex here, as as far as I know ALL Catalan schools are ALL Catalan. So, if you are a foreigner (for example south american, marrokian) and have no knowledge of the language but do speak Spanish, this is of no use. Parents have no choice.
> I wonder, though, does the choice of an ALL Spanish school exist? Possibly it does on a very costly basis. But official schools do not have this kind of multilingual basis. EVERYTHING, except the Spanish language, is taught in Catalan.


Hi there,

Wow, I disagree, not ALL catalan schools are ALL catalan. We have two languages here and we all use them both. We need both. I use both with family, friends, work, shoopping, restaurant, TV, etc. We all use both. 

An all spanish school only? I don't think so, we live with 2 languages here, 2 official languages and we study both.

I used both languages in school with different subjects and the teacher is the one he/she who chooses the language. I don't know how it works now, but I bet they still use both. (not talking about university, there it works as Betulina said. I agree with all her comments.)

Heidita, if you come to Barcelona listen to the people in the street and you will see that some speak catalan, some speak spanish, some English,... 

Saludetes

Mei

Thanks Sean


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