# scuola di frontiera



## angilu

How would "scuola di frontiera" be translated into English? Is there an equivalent?


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## Paulfromitaly

Please write 
- the *full original sentence
- your translation attempt* 
and provide some information about the *context*, thank you 


What does "provide* some context *" mean? 
*How and in which forum to create - edit - post a thread correctly*


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## angilu

Le zone al confine con il napoletano hanno parecchie scuole cosiddette di frontiera a causa del difficile contesto in cui operano. I found these translations in Internet "border schools", but I don't think this suits the context. I thought about using "problematic schools" but somehow it doesn't take into account the whole problem


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## Paulfromitaly

angilu said:


> "problematic schools"


That's definitely better than border school.
It's a school that has to operate in a challenging territory, be a forerunner.


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## angilu

So how could I make a good translation...something like "the areas which confine with the Neapolitan suburbia have many so-called "problematic schools" because they operate in a challenging territory" ? Does that sound near to the Italian meaning?

BTW, thanks for your help!


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## ohbice

angilu said:


> Le zone al confine con il napoletano hanno parecchie scuole cosiddette di frontiera a causa del difficile contesto in cui operano.


Penso che qui "frontiera" sia usato nel senso di luogo limite, luogo in cui ci si fronteggia. Un po come nel mito dell frontiera americano, la conquista del west. Lungo la frontiera ci sono pericoli, si combatte. E si cerca di andare avanti. Non so se in questo senso la parola _frontier _è corretta. Sinceramente "problematic schools" non mi piace molto.


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## angilu

I don't like problematic schools either, but if you know a better translation could you please suggest


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## ohbice

Pensavo che _frontier schools _potesse funzionare, invece vedo su ggogle che con _frontier school _si intende una scuola di altissimo livello. Mi spiace.


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## angilu

ohbice said:


> Pensavo che _frontier schools _potesse funzionare, invece vedo su ggogle che con _frontier school _si intende una scuola di altissimo livello. Mi spiace.


In fact, that's why I turned to WordReference community for this particular problem


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## Paulfromitaly

What about "pioneering school" ?


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## Mary49

Paulfromitaly said:


> What about "pioneering school" ?


Potrei sbagliarmi, ma "pioneering school" mi dà l'idea di una scuola innovativa, all'avanguardia;  Pioneering Definizione significato | Dizionario inglese Collins    "Pioneering work or a pioneering individual does something that has not been done before, for example by developing or using new methods or techniques".


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## Paulfromitaly

Mary49 said:


> Potrei sbagliarmi, ma "pioneering school" mi dà l'idea di una scuola innovativa, all'avanguardia;  Pioneering Definizione significato | Dizionario inglese Collins    "Pioneering work or a pioneering individual does something that has not been done before, for example by developing or using new methods or techniques".


Sicuramente può anche voler dire _pionieristico_ che in questo contesto non necessariamente è il significato desiderato.

Taken all that into account, I'd go for "frontline school".


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## MR1492

Perhaps it's just me but I'm having a hard time with this one. Does the term "scuola di frontiera" have a geographical meaning or a pedagogical meaning? Or, does it have both and we just have to figure out from the context which aspect is being discussed. Mi spiace ma sono confuso!

Phil


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## Paulfromitaly

MR1492 said:


> a geographical meaning or a pedagogical meaning


Perhaps a bit of both?
Pedagogically challenging schools are often located in problematic areas.


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## Mary49

Hi Phil,
a "scuola di frontiera" is situated in problematic environments, especially on the outskirts of a town, where there is a rather high risk of youth delinquency and drug abuse.  Il podcasting nella scuola di frontiera    "La mia scuola è situata alla periferia di una grande città siciliana, in un quartiere considerato “a rischio” con un discreto tasso di degrado economico-sociale e di microcriminalità; in molti casi gli alunni sono i primi in famiglia ad accedere alla scuola secondaria superiore. Tutti gli studenti parlano a casa esclusivamente in dialetto e moltissimi lo parlano anche a scuola: le docenti di Italiano affrontano molti errori di grammatica e di ortografia, anche di livello elementare.
Il clima nelle classi è spesso conflittuale: molti ragazzi si conoscono dai tempi delle elementari o delle medie, o anche semplicemente perché vivono nella stessa zona, e si portano dietro rancori, ripicche, simpatie e antipatie che nascono o vengono alimentate anche fuori dal plesso scolastico".


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## MR1492

Thanks Paul and Mary. Interesting. Negli Stati Uniti, la maggior numeri di "problematic schools" sono localizzato nella città (nel centro). Le scuole megliore sono locaizzato nel "suburbs."

Phil


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## ohbice

angilu said:


> Le zone al confine con il napoletano hanno parecchie scuole cosiddette di frontiera a causa del difficile contesto in cui operano


"Difficile contesto" qui significa dispersione scolastica molto alta, povertà letterale e povertà sociale, scarsa o nulla possibilità di trovare un lavoro coerente con le aspettative generate dalla frequentazione di un certo tipo di scuola... oltre ai problemi di delinquenza / teppismo / tossicodipendenza eccetera.


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## Curandera

_"Borderland school"_


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## MR1492

I will give some advice and then some possible solutions. While the Italian term "scuola di frontiera" has a geographic sense to it, I would not use that as the translation as an AE speaker will not understand you. Some terms you will see in AE are:

at-risk school/students
marginalized school/students
*failing schools* (this one is quite popular today and might be the best translation)

I hope this helps a little.

Phil


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## Paulfromitaly

MR1492 said:


> *failing schools* (this one is quite popular today and might be the best translation)




"But these days, any school with low test scores is called a “failing school,”"

My problem with this is that while a school seems to be called failing school when its test scores are low and therefore the name is related to the performance of the school, "di frontiera" identifies a school that has to operate in a challenging territory and with problematic children, regardless of the score rank (which is likely to be low, though)


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## Curandera

I have encountered this term in a book entitled "Critique as Uncertainty". 
Borderland school seems to cover both the geographical and pedagogical aspects: it is often located in problematic areas and therefore socially and educationally challenging. 
I've never heard of "at-risk or failing schools", but in my opinion, they are more likely to carry a negative connotation.


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## MR1492

Curandera said:


> I have encountered this term in a book entitled "Critique as Uncertainty".
> Borderland school seems to cover both the geographical and pedagogical aspects: it is often located in problematic areas and therefore socially and educationally challenging.
> I've never heard of "at-risk or failing schools", but in my opinion, they are more likely to carry a negative connotation.



Yes, that is absolutely correct.



Paulfromitaly said:


> "But these days, any school with low test scores is called a “failing school,”"
> 
> My problem with this is that while a school seems to be called failing school when its test scores are low and therefore the name is related to the performance of the school, "di frontiera" identifies a school that has to operate in a challenging territory and with problematic children, regardless of the score rank (which is likely to be low, though)



I've been thinking about this one and I can't come up with a term used in AE which combines the difficulties of problematic children and challenging territory. I don't think we have an all-encompassing term for it.

Phil


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## sound shift

"Schools with a challenging intake"?


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## angilu

Thanks for all your attempts at trying to encompass the term "Di frontiera". Actually I am trying to promote my school which tries to put its problematic students back on the right path-and that isn't always easy. So I would prefer the terms with a positive connitation such as "schools in a challenging territory" or "schools in a difficult student context" because in this way I would be vying away from the definition of the school being the focus, whereas here it's the context which is the focus.
Again thanks for your input and help!


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## A User

Proprio perché "Scuola di frontiera" è un'espressione idiomatica tipicamente italiana potresti lasciare invariato il testo aggiungendo una spiegazione.
A so-called "Scuola di frontiera" is a school located in critical socioeconomic context or district, or a class with unteachable students.
Puoi adattare la spiegazione a tuo piacimento.


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## lentulax

I (from UK) would have thought 'frontline school' (military metaphor - school facing the greatest challenges, like frontline soldiers), as PaulfromItaly has already suggested,#12 ; to me, 'frontline school' would immediately convey the implications described above ; but Google (to my surprise) doesn't seem to offer much support.


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## MR1492

lentulax said:


> I (from UK) would have thought 'frontline school' (military metaphor - school facing the greatest challenges, like frontline soldiers), as PaulfromItaly has already suggested,#12 ; to me, 'frontline school' would immediately convey the implications described above ; but Google (to my surprise) doesn't seem to offer much support.



I think I might have mentioned earlier that in AE we just don't have a simple, one-word description for this type of school. We can describe schools with "at risk students" or "underserved areas" but we don't have a concise thing like "scuola di frontiera." It just doesn't exist.

Phil


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## A User

Abstract from "Teaching in a Tough School" by Tom Gallagher:
 "If you’ve worked in a tough school, little that Ed Boland reports in _The Battle for Room 314_ will surprise you. But it may come as a revelation to some who haven’t been in school for a while, particularly those who think our schools are “failing” because the teachers can’t teach, or the administrators don’t care, or the curriculum’s all wrong, or the disciplinary polices are too strict or too lenient, or because of the failings of educational policy generally."


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## joanvillafane

This is a fascinating discussion - showing once again that to translate a single word you have to have a deep understanding of an entire cultural context.  I agree with Phil (hi, Phil!) that we don't have a single term like "scuola di frontiera" but rather a variety of terms characterizing different educational contexts, including as Phil said, "underserved" populations, "at-risk" students,  and many others, including a whole array of euphemisms that try to avoid negative stereotypes.  For example I don't think we would ever hear anyone in the profession refer to "unteachable students" (see post #25).  Students may have learning disabilities, social-emotional-behavioral challenges, or gaps in their previous academic development, such as the many ESL students I knew who were learning English as a Second Language while also learning basic skills in Spanish because they had limited school experience in their countries.   I've worked in school districts like this my entire life - in New York and New Jersey - and they often go by a legal designation (ordered by court decree) which everybody locally understands but which of course are untranslatable.  I worked in "Title I" districts (recipients of federal funds for schools in low-income areas), and in an "Abbott" district, (name of a court decision mandating equalized education funding), which then became a "special needs district," so I think these terms are similar to "scuola di frontiera" which is probably immediately recognizable to Italians but difficult to translate.


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## Paulfromitaly

joanvillafane said:


> "special needs district"


This makes sense and reflects the meaning of scuola di frontiera pretty well, perhaps only missing the frontline reference that the Italian term also carries.


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## A User

joanvillafane said:


> For example I don't think we would ever hear anyone in the profession refer to "unteachable students"


"Unteachable students" è una locuzione usata dagli Americani, in Italia ci sono solo "studenti con difficoltà d'apprendimento". Ma sarebbe un errore caratterizzare le "scuole di frontiera" come scuole per disagiati. Quello che manca in queste scuole è il senso civico, un prerequisito della preparazione culturale.
Chi si ricorda di Vinnie Barbarino? See "_Welcome Back, Kotter_" on English Wikipedia.


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## Ciprianus

Depressed area school.


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## joanvillafane

Oh, please.  I hope you are not serious about referring to a 1970s TV sitcom in a discussion about current educational policies.  And "il senso civico" is something that schools should teach, sustain, promote, encourage and develop,  not something that they expect students necessarily to come to school with.


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## A User

This is not a discussion about current or correct educational policies, not for me.

Ho cercato tra le recensioni di “The Battle for Room 314”.
The New York Times… to teach in a public school in a blighted neighborhood.
EdBoland.com… Synopsis: In a fit of idealism, Ed Boland left a twenty-year career as a non-profit executive to teach in a tough New York City public high school.
Don Crawford, Ph.D. ... Having been a charter school administrator in poor neighborhoods, I know that teacher preparation programs seldom do a good job of teaching/training the skills needed to do an effective job in tough schools.
Robert Pondiscio , a Senior Fellow and the Vice President for External Affairs at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute… In schools where chaos and disorder reigns.


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