# Persian: علم علم بر برین بالا/تا برو چون علم شوی بالا



## Stranger_

Guys, how should this line read?

علم علم بر برین بالا
تا برو چون علم شوی بالا
(اوحدی)

Am I correct in reading it as:

alam-e elm bar barin bālā (bar being the imperative form of "bordan")
ta baru (بر او) chon alam shavi bālā

I must admit that I have attempted more than thrice to make sense of it and yet, this is the most meaningful reading (or to be more accurate, the least meaningless reading!) I could come up with.

Any help?

Click here to read the whole poem.


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## Faramarz2015

Hi,

I'd read it like you.


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## colognial

Yes, but what does it all mean?


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## Faramarz2015

colognial said:


> Yes, but what does it all mean?


In my opinion, it means: when you equip yourself with knowledge, you can overcome your soul/emotions (دل) and are able to control it fully. In other words, you are the king of your soul!


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## colognial

Thanks Faramarz2015. It seems to me the poet is reassuring us that through learning we should be able to overcome learning! Makes a lot of sense!


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## Stranger_

Thank you guys but I am still not entirely satisfied with the answers; more insights are very welcome.


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## colognial

Stranger_, you made me actually sit down and think about the meaning of these lines of verse. The thinking part was OK, of course. But the lines seem more like a cipher than verse. 

So, having worked at solving the riddle and rewriting it in plain Persian - and I'm still not sure about the meaning I've come up with - here's the result. 

پرچم دانش را بر بالای قامت خود برافراز 
تا به لطف دانشی که آموخته ای چنان پرچمی راست و استوار بایستی


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## Faramarz2015

I suppose we should mean this line with respect to previous line.

دل بی‌علم چشم بی‌نورست

مرد نادان ز مردمی دورست

علم علم بر برین بالا

تا برو چون علم شوی والا
****

علم علم بر بالای دل بی علم ببر

تا برو چون علم شوی والا

برو=دل بی علم



انسان مجهز به علم=والا
******
  ****  <=علم که به علم تشبیه شده است
   **
دل بی علم=پست


I think its meaning is really straightforward and easy to understand!

(This topic reminded me when I was in high school and had to mean boring poems. Although Persian is my first language I really hate it! The only reason why I chose English Literature as my major!)


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## colognial

Faramarz2015, you say the meaning of the poem is straightforward. I agree; the _meaning_ is not exactly original, which is to say, the idea has been suggested by many others. It is the wording, the way in which the idea has been conveyed, that is a bit of a problem here. But, as I always have to remind myself, 'not understanding' a line or a passage or a whole text is never ever enough grounds for criticizing the wording or the idea.


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## Stranger_

Guys, how should this line read and what does it mean?

علم را دزد برد نتواند
به اجل نیز مرد نتواند


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## PersoLatin

elm râ dozd barad natvânad
bé ajal niz marad natvânad

A thieve can't steel knowledge (A thieve can't take the knowledge);
Even if he lives for ever. (Even if he doesn't go to his death)

علم را دزد نتواند ببرد
به اجل هم نرود نتواند


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## Stranger_

Thanks.

So, you are saying that "marad → maravad → naravad" right? This makes perfect sense but do you know of any other instance where "marad" has been used to mean "naravad"? Because, quite frankly, I have never come across this poetic form of "raftan", even "maravad", I do not recall to have ever seen it.


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## PersoLatin

Bâ dorud,

Yes, marad -> maravad -> naravad is exactly how I see it.

Believe it or not, this is the first time I have seen it too, that I recall. But its structure within the context, gave its secret away, so it was more detective work than anything else.

I am hoping others will provide more instances of its use, I will try too.


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## PersoLatin

Hi Stranger,

Maybe your last question should have been in a new thread, it may get missed by some.


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## colognial

Hello, everybody. Here's my interpretation:

برد and مرد rhyme. Both, therefore, carry the 'o' sound. The first line reads: عِلم را دزد بُرد نتواند, which means 'no thief can take away [one's] knowledge'.

We then have به اجل نیز مُرد نتواند, which means 'also when the time comes to die, knowledge cannot perish'.

PersoLatin, the new question does call for a new thread, you're right. We're all done for! BUT, there is still hope: the unstated topic of this thread can be "How do we read lines of verse that are cryptic where correct pronunciation is the key to solving the riddle".


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## PersoLatin

colognial's interpretation of the second part, is much more convincing.


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