# منذ - have been X-ing for five years



## Sidjanga

Hi,

I've just read this thread, so I think it's actually clear to me now.

I'd still like to ask you to confirm this though, if applicable, as I've been told otherwise today.

Is 
أسكن هنا منذ خمس سنوات
 and appropriate translation for _
I've been living here for five years_? 
(in particular with respect to the verb form, i.e. أسكن as opposed to سكنت)

Thanks.


----------



## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just read this thread, so I think it's actually clear to me now.
> 
> I'd still like to ask you to confirm this though, if applicable, as I've been told otherwise today.
> 
> Is
> أسكن هنا منذ خمس سنوات
> and appropriate translation for _
> I've been living here for five years_?
> (in particular with respect to the verb form, i.e. أسكن as opposed to سكنت)
> 
> Thanks.



Yes, because أسكن implies that you still live there. What were you told otherwise? Perhaps they misunderstood the question?


----------



## uas60

Just a small point - mundhu kham*sin*? Is it?


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Doesn't it have to be *khamsi* ?

*khamsi* is *muDaaf*, *sanaawaatin :* *muDaaf ilayhi*), I don't think any *muDaaf* can take tanwiin.... (be it definite or indefinite) Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## uas60

You are correct muDaaf does not take tanween - is this muDaaf though?


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

According to my humble knowledge, there is a relation of *muDaaf-muDaaf ilayhi* for numbers+counted things from 3 to 10, and above, the counted thing is *tamyiiz*, I think....
Can any expert on *na7w* confirm that??....


----------



## Ghabi

I'm not sure, but it seems that the number and the counted noun can also have an appositional relationship, besides forming an _iDaafa_. For example, from the _Qur'an_ Sura 12:46,



> يُوسُفُ أَيُّهَا الصِّدِّيقُ أَفْتِنَا فِي سَبْعِ بَقَرَات ٍ سِمَان ٍ يَأْكُلُهُنَّ سَبْعٌ عِجَاف ٌ وَسَبْعِ سُنْبُلاَتٍ خُضْر ٍ وَأُخَرَ يَابِسَات ٍ لَعَلِّي أَرْجِعُ إِلَى النَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Ghabi said:


> I'm not sure, but it seems that the number and the counted noun can also have an appositional relationship, besides forming an _iDaafa_. For example, from the _Qur'an_ Sura 12:46,


 

yes, but I wouldn't call that appositional relationship.... and this doesn't contradict the iDaafa...

This is the way it is analyzed in *Na7w* :

*Fii* = 7arf jaarr
*sab3i* = ism majroor wa huwa muDaaf
*baqaraatin* = muDaaf ilayhi
*simaanin* = na3t for baqaraatin and as such agrees in number / gender / definiteness / i3raab with its _*man3uut *_(= baqaraatin).


----------



## Ghabi

No, no, I mean the green part.


----------



## cherine

The green part سبعٌ عجافٌ is not an iDaafa structure, so it doesn't work the same way.

As for أسكن هنا منذ خمسِ سنواتٍ I can't think of any other translation that "I've been living here for five years".


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Ha, ha, I see your point now !!!!!! I think it is a good one..... But these specific twists in the rules don't invalidate them....

You know, this is the Holy Quran, so there are so many things like this if you analyze the grammar of the Noble Qur'an...


I think that *sab3un* is with _tanwiin_ because the noun, _baqaraat_ is ma7dhuuf.... (omitted although meant), and 3ijaaf is not muDaaf ilayhi, but simply *na3t* of *sab3un.*
But hey, I think this is really specific to Quraanic Arabic.... I am not sure this is a common feature of MSA....


----------



## Ghabi

Yes, in modern written Arabic the rule I know is to use _iDaafa_, as you says above in Post #6.


----------



## Sidjanga

Thanks for your replies.





cherine said:


> As for أسكن هنا منذ خمسِ سنواتٍ I can't think of any other translation that "I've been living here for five years".


Hm... my question was meant the other way round.  I wasn't sure if أسكن هنا منذ خمسِ سنوات was a valid translation of "I've been living here for five years".





clevermizo said:


> Yes, because أسكن implies that you still live  there. What were you told otherwise? Perhaps they misunderstood the  question?


Well, it may have been a misunderstanding, of course, though I didn't get that impression; but who knows.

I was told that منذ could  be  used with the ماضي only, and that, accordingly, I would have to  say سكنت  هنا منذ...سنوات even though I still live there.

And how about these sentences? 
Which tense would you use here in order to convey the idea that  the people in question still live there?

لم أتكلم معها منذ أن تسكن\سكنتْ هناك.
...لأنه بيتنا, منذ تقيم\أقامت معنا جدتي أصبح بيت العائلة


----------



## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> And how about these sentences?
> Which tense would you use here in order to convey the idea that  the people in question still live there?
> 
> لم أتكلم معها منذ أن تسكن\سكنتْ هناك.



Are you trying to say: _ I haven't spoken with her since she's been living there?_

You could avoid the verb issue entirely by saying:

لم أتكلّم معها منذ سكنها هناك.

I think this still implies that she lives there. منذ أن تسكن هناك sounds awkward to me, but I'm not sure. Actually, to be honest, I would say:

لم أتكلّم معها منذ أن انتقلت إلى هناك.
"I haven't spoken with her since she moved there."

Anyway, I'm not sure how to use سكن here to imply she still lives there. 



> ...لأنه بيتنا, منذ تقيم\أقامت معنا جدتي أصبح بيت العائلة



Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. "Because it is our house, since my grandmother constructed with us it became the family's house?" ???

I think I'm now understanding what your informant was telling you about منذ. It means "since" some point in time. That point in time, if a verb, is probably a past tense verb, because these verbs refer to a specific moment something occurred in the past. I'm not sure if you can use the present tense (a continuous tense) after منذ but you most certainly can use it in the clause before منذ. 


Consider: 

I've been living here since the beginning of this year.
أسكن هنا منذ بداية هذه السنة.

This uses the present tense in the main clause, and no verb at all in the منذ clause.

I've been living here since my father got a new job.
أسكن هنا منذ أن حصل والدي على شغل جديد.

This uses the present tense in the main clause (since you still live here), but measures the amount of time since a point - the point at which the father gets the job.

I have a theory now that you can't use the present tense after منذ أن because you can't measure time from something continuous. To be fair, even saying "since I've been living here" sounds a little awkward to me in English.

As usual we should probably wait for some native speaker contributions.


----------



## Sidjanga

Thanks for your reply. I think the whole issue is quite a bit clearer to me now.





clevermizo said:


> Are you trying to say: _ I haven't spoken with her since she's been living there?_


Yes. Or: _No he hablado con ella desde que vive allí_. 


> You could avoid the verb issue entirely by saying:
> 
> لم أتكلّم معها منذ سكنها هناك


That's interesting. I wasn't aware you could use the مصدر after منذ , but it's actually quite logical.


> لم أتكلّم معها منذ أن انتقلت إلى هناك.
> "I haven't spoken with her since she moved there."


Yes, I've thought of that too, but it's not really what I want to say - _if _there is a way in Arabic to directly express the idea of _d__esde que vivo aquí /_ "since I've been living here", that is. 


> ...لأنه بيتنا, منذ تقيم\أقامت معنا جدتي أصبح بيت العائلة
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. "Because it is our house, since my grandmother constructed with us it became the family's house?" ???
Click to expand...

It's somewhat funny that that sentence seems to be difficult to understand (thouhg I should have made clear that this is only the second part of a longer sentence, I suppose).
I also found it strange and somwhat difficult to understand, in particular the logic behind the verb tenses.
That sentence appears exactly the way it is (with أقامت) in the book and the accompanying dvd I've been working with.
As far as I understand, it's supposed to mean something like "_Since my grandma 'has been living/staying' with us], our house is the 'family house' or _Since she moved in with us, our house became the 'family house', i.e. the house where all the family members gather on Friday evenings.





> I have a theory now that you can't use the present tense after منذ أن because you can't measure time from something continuous. To be fair, even saying "since I've been living here" sounds a little awkward to me in English.


That was my impression too. 
And, as I said, I would have preferred to simply write _Desde que vivo aquí._.., or _Desde que mi abuela vive con nosotros_,...respectively, but I thought the English version would probably allow more people to take part.


----------



## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> That sentence appears exactly the way it is (with أقامت) in the book and the accompanying dvd I've been working with.
> As far as I understand, it's supposed to mean something like "_Since my grandma 'has been living/staying' with us], our house is the 'family house' or _Since she moved in with us, our house became the 'family house', i.e. the house where all the family members gather on Friday evenings.That was my impression too.



Well, if it uses أقامت and is intended to mean "since she's been living with us" then that implies we use the past tense after منذ أن and the interpretation can still have relevance in the present, depending on context. I just had trouble understanding it because I didn't know about this idiomatic usage of the verb أقام.



> And, as I said, I would have preferred to simply write _Desde que vivo aquí._.., or _Desde que mi abuela vive con nosotros_,...respectively, but I thought the English version would probably allow more people to take part.


Yes, Spanish does have a good mechanism for this. In English for "desde que vivo aquí", "since I've been living here" doesn't really sound bad at all, but it just seemed like a mouthful for me. I'd like to know from other contributors whether or not you can use the present tense after منذ أن because in that sense it would work more like the Spanish structure. 

In the meanwhile, I think لم أتكلم معها منذ سكنها هناك might be a good alternative. The English "since her living there" is a little bookish sounding, but is also all right I think.


----------



## Sidjanga

Hi again,

So what do native speakers think of the idea of using the مضارع after منذ (أن) ?

For example:
_I haven't talked to her since she's__* been living* there.
No he hablado con ella desde que *vive *allí.
Ich habe nicht (mehr) mit ihr gesprochen, seit sie dort *wohnt*_.

Would this sentence work?

لم أتحدث معها منذ أن *تسكن *هناك


----------



## cherine

Sidjanga said:


> Hi again,
> 
> So what do native speakers think of the idea of using the مضارع after منذ (أن) ?
> [...]
> Would this sentence work?
> 
> لم أتحدث معها منذ أن *تسكن *هناك


 
Hi,
I believe it's wrong. As far as I know, منذ أن is always followed by the verb in the past form.


----------



## Ghabi

Hi Cherine, in Egyptian we say _ba2aa-li khams seniin saaken hena_, right? Does this structure also work in fuS7a? Can we say _inqaDat khams sanawaat wa-ana askunu hina_?


----------



## cherine

Hi,


Ghabi said:


> Hi Cherine, in Egyptian we say _ba2aa-li khams seniin saaken hena_, right?


Right, except for khams, we say kham*as*.


> Does this structure also work in fuS7a? Can we say _inqaDat khams sanawaat wa-ana askunu hina_?


It's technically correct, but the structure I'm more used to is with the verb مضى : we say مضت خمسُ سنوات وأنا أسكن هنا or مضت خمسُ سنوات على سَكَني هنا 
But I think it's more common to use the structure with منذ .


----------



## Ghabi

cherine said:


> Right, except for khams, we say kham*as*.


Oops ... (It's a case of hypercorrection on my part. Since my Egyptian teacher always says _khamas_, even when he's speaking fuS7a, so I keep reminding myself that "it's _khams_ in fuS7a", and now I even say _khams_ in 3mmiyya!)



> It's technically correct, but the structure I'm more used to is with the verb مضى : we say مضت خمسُ سنوات وأنا أسكن هنا or مضت خمسُ سنوات على سَكَني هنا
> But I think it's more common to use the structure with منذ .


Great! Thanks. Can I also change the verb to a simple _lii_? i.e. لي خمسُ سنوات وأنا أسكن هنا This is the structure used in Najdi if I'm not mistaken, and I want to know if it's also acceptable in fuS7a.


----------



## cherine

Ghabi said:


> Oops ... (It's a case of hypercorrection on my part. Since my Egyptian teacher always says _khamas_, even when he's speaking fuS7a, so I keep reminding myself that "it's _khams_ in fuS7a", and now I even say _khams_ in 3mmiyya!)


No problem, I think it's more important -for many people- to be correct in MSA than in 3ammeyya. 


> Great! Thanks. Can I also change the verb to a simple _lii_? i.e. لي خمسُ سنوات وأنا أسكن هنا This is the structure used in Najdi if I'm not mistaken, and I want to know if it's also acceptable in fuS7a.


Yes! برافو عليك  This is correct and is used in MSA.


----------



## Sidjanga

cherine said:


> Hi,
> I believe it's wrong. As far as I know, منذ أن is always followed by the verb in the past form.


Hi,
So if I understand you correctly, there's no way to tell - other than from the context - if the action mentioned after منذ أن still continues or not, or is there?

E.g., from this sentence from my textbook alone:

...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي

you couldn't tell if his grandma is still living with them or not, could you, because it's منذ أن أقامت in both cases, correct?

_Since my grandma *has been living* with us_... 
_Desde que mi abuela *vive *con nosotros... _(= she's still living there) 
--> ...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي

_Since my grandma *lived *with us_... 
_Desde que mi abuela *vivió *con nosotros..._(= she's not living there any more) 
--> ...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي, i.e., the exact same as above, though the situation is clearly different.


----------



## elroy

Sidjanga said:


> ...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي


 First of all, I don't like this sentence at all (for any context). I would say منذ أن أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا.


> _Since my grandma *has been living* with us_...
> _Desde que mi abuela *vive *con nosotros... _(= she's still living there)
> --> ...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي


 I would use my suggestion above.


> _Since my grandma *lived *with us_...
> _Desde que mi abuela *vivió *con nosotros..._(= she's not living there any more)
> --> ...منذ أن أقامت معنا جدتي, i.e., the exact same as above, though the situation is clearly different.


 I would say منذ أن *كانت* جدتي *تقيم* معنا.


----------



## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> منذ أن أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا.
> منذ أن *كانت* جدتي *تقيم* معنا.


Many thanks. I really like your suggestions.

Just two more questions concerning the first sentence, which is the one that actually describes the situation in question (i.e. she's still living with them):

منذ أن أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا.

*1)* Instead of لـ , could you also use a different preposition to convey the idea of _"came *to *live with us / vino *a*_ vivir con nosotros"?
In particular, would كي work here too, or would it make her moving in with them sound too "purposive", like in "*in order to* live with us"?

*2) *Going back to the original sentence, 
...أمّا في المساء [مساء الجمعة] فلا يمكننا الخروج لأنّ بيتنا, منذ أقامت معنا جدتي,* أصبح بيت العائلة*

now "adjusted" according to your suggestion:
...لأنّ بيتنا, منذ أن أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا,* أصبح بيت العائلة*

Does the part in bold sound idiomatic and logical in the context of the first part of the sentece?
I mean, *أصبح بيت العائلة *is a one-time event, isn't it? It "_became_ the 'house of the family' ".

Maybe that's "thinking too European", but wouldn't it be more logical to either say

...لأنّ بيتنا, *منذ **أن* أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا,* فهو*\*يكون*(*؟*) بيت العائلة
(_It *has been* the 'house of the family' (ever) *since *my grandma moved in with us._)

or 
...لأنّ بيتنا, *عندما *أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا,*أصبح *بيت  العائلة
(_It *became *the 'house of the family' *when *my grandma moved  in with us._)

Or does *أصبح* have a more flexible or "gradual" meaning, and 
...لأنّ بيتنا, *منذ **أن* أتت جدتي لتقيم معنا,*أصبح* بيت العائلة

rather means something like "_it *has been growing*/*turning into* the 'house of the family' ever *since *my grandma came to live with us"_, or, maybe better expressed in Spanish, _"*se ha venido haciendo* la casa de la familia *desde que* mi abuela vino a vivir con nosotros_"?


----------



## elroy

1. I would not use كي.
2. It sounds fine to me with أصبح, although I would prefer *قد *أصبح.  You can't say فهو; it would have to be just هو.  And you definitely can't say يكون.


----------

