# ていた is used because past tense is the default tense in novels?



## thetazuo

use だった／かった for present state
Hi. In this previous thread I was told that the narrative part in a novel is basically written in the past tense, which is the normal and basic tense.


thetazuo said:


> So is it right to think that the past progressive and also the past perfect in English are written in the ていた form (in the main clause) in Japanese? Although I have seen a lot of ているs in the main clause, actually they are derived from ていた for vividness, right?


And I was also told that the above thinking is wrong.


SoLaTiDoberman said:


> You are wrong to say something about ていた in this thread, which is completely different from the context of this thread. You should create another thread if you want to know.


So please let me show two examples of 〜ていた. (the attached picture is the context)




1. いつからそこにいたのか、廊下から、十香が不安げな眼差しを*送ってきていた*。
2. 令音はあのあとすぐ<フラクシナス>に帰り、十香は、夕食が終わってから客間に*赴いていた*。

How are the two ていたs different from the だったs in the previous thread? Can’t we use 〜ている form here? Is 〜ていた form used because past tense is the default tense in the narrative part of the novel?
Thank you.


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## Contrafibularity

There's no such thing as "default tense" in novel writing.

Although it is normal to use past tense when you describe a past event, you can also do it in present progressive as if you are looking through a character's eye at the event that is happening right in front of you.  It is a matter of perspective or viewpoint, not of grammar.  It totally depends on the context.  In many cases, more than one tense is possible, so you will just have to figure out on your own why some tense is preferred at a given point.


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## thetazuo

Thank you, Contrafibularity-san. I see.


Contrafibularity said:


> There's no such thing as "default tense" in novel writing.


I’m just being influenced by English novels, most of which adopt past tense as their “default tense” (and some adopt present tense as “default tense”)


Contrafibularity said:


> Although it is normal to use past tense when you describe a past event,


So is it right to think the other way round (I.e. whenever I read a sentence ending with past tense 〜た、〜ていた, I can think it describes a a past event)?

Edit:
I think I should ask this way:
Can I think the only function of the past form 〜た、〜ていた to end a sentence is to show that this sentence describes a past event/state?


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## Contrafibularity

thetazuo said:


> Can I think the only function of the past form 〜た、〜ていた to end a sentence is to show that this sentence describes a past event/state?


Not exactly.  If you say "さあ、早いとこ帰った帰った！", it means "Go home already!", 帰った behaving like an imperative.  It is often tricky to discuss grammar in absolute terms.       

And I'm not sure I understand your question correctly. 


thetazuo said:


> いつからそこにいたのか、廊下から、十香が不安げな眼差しを*送ってきていた*。


In this case, for example, 十香 <was giving / had been giving> 士道 worried looks, but would you consider this as "a past event / state"?


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## thetazuo

Thank you for the response.


Contrafibularity said:


> Not exactly. If you say "さあ、早いとこ帰った帰った！", it means "Go home already!", 帰った behaving like an imperative. It is often tricky to discuss grammar in absolute terms.
> 
> And I'm not sure I understand your question correctly.


Sorry for not being clear, but I was referring to 〜た、〜ていた at the end of a sentence in narrative part of novels, not in spoken language.


Contrafibularity said:


> In this case, for example, 十香 <was giving / had been giving> 士道 worried looks, but would you consider this as "a past event / state"?


If it is not a past event/state, why is it written in past form? I know past form can be use to talk about present state. For example, we say 忘れてた to talk about the present state of remembering something. But narrative part in novels has special rules different from usual speech.


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## Contrafibularity

Okay then.  So are you asking why the writer use those tenses in such a higgledy-piggledy way?


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## thetazuo

Yes and no...
I already know some rules for using tenses in such a higgledy-piggledy way.
For example, changing the ～た form into ～る form can add the immediacy/vividness to the scene being described.
And I also learned from my grammar book a general guidance/rule for tense-switching.

Here is what it says
_Usually a series of past events are narrated in past tenses. But primarily in written Japanese discourse that narrates a past event, past tenses often switch to nonpast tenses...the English native reader [would] expect the author to use nothing but past tense. Logically speaking the author could have written every sentence in the past tense...to put it in general terms, the tense switching is a strategy available to the writer to differentiate a stage and a set of chronological events that occur within that stage. The stage is certainly important in that it defines a space in which a drama develops, but it is less important than the drama itself. So, important,dramatic information is described in the past tense, whereas relatively unimportant circumstantial information is described in the nonpast tense. The use of nonpast tenses has an effect of creating a vivid sense of immediateness for the reader. 

Principle of Tense Switching
A part of a past event (often a state rather than an action) can be described using the nonpast tense, if the writer perceives it to be relatively unimportant circumstancial information that has no direct bearing upon the major story line._

All these explanations tell me why we can switch the tense from た form to る form.
But they fail to explain why we can use past form to describe a present event/state. So could you explain why? I’m more interested in why 〜ていた form is used at the end of a sentence in narrative part of novels. Thank you.


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## Contrafibularity

thetazuo said:


> But they fail to explain why we can use past form to describe a present event/state. So could you explain why?


Could you first tell me what you mean by "a present event/state"?  What kind of sentence do you have in mind?  

I don't quite agree with what your book says, especially the bits about relatively unimportant circumstantial information being written in nonpast tense.  But that's not the main point here, so let's not get into it.


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## thetazuo

Contrafibularity said:


> Could you first tell me what you mean by "a present event/state"? What kind of sentence do you have in mind?


By that I mean something like the main verb occurs when the sentence is said/written (発話時). For example, 森さんは車を持っている。(at the time when the sentence is said/written, he owns a car)
Does it make sense?

(So I think いつからそこにいたのか、廊下から、十香が不安げな眼差しを*送ってきていた*。describes a present state because at the time when the sentence is written, 十香 is giving 士道 worried looks. So shouldn’t *送ってきている* be used?)


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## Contrafibularity

thetazuo said:


> By that I mean something like the main verb occurs when the sentence is said/written (発話時). For example, 森さんは車を持っている。(at the time when the sentence is said/written, he owns a car)


Okay, but how does this relate to what you said about past tense being used for a present event/state?  If you say 森さんは車を持っていた, it definitely means 森さん had / used to own a car.  



thetazuo said:


> So I think いつからそこにいたのか、廊下から、十香が不安げな眼差しを*送ってきていた*。describes a present state because at the time when the sentence is written, 十香 is giving 士道 worried looks. So shouldn’t *送ってきている* be used?


I think you are confusing the narrator's viewpoint with a character's.   For the narrator, it is a past event.  For the characters, it is an ongoing event.  The narrator is now describing the event from a detached viewpoint.  送ってきている would not be _wrong, _but the sentence is perfectly natural as it is so why do you have to change that?


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## thetazuo

Thanks for the response.


Contrafibularity said:


> Okay, but how does this relate to what you said about past tense being used for a present event/state? If you say 森さんは車を持っていた, it definitely means 森さん had / used to own a car.


Well, that example may be irrelevant, but I just can’t come up with a sentence whose main verb uses past form for a present event/state off-hand. I can only think of examples from novels (especially the novel in op).


Contrafibularity said:


> I think you are confusing the narrator's viewpoint with a character's. For the narrator, it is a past event. For the characters, it is an ongoing event. The narrator is now describing the event from a detached viewpoint. 送ってきている would not be _wrong, _but the sentence is perfectly natural as it is so why do you have to change that?


So the main reason why in some cases 〜ていた form is preferred at the end of a sentence  (in the narrative part of novels) is that the writer chooses to describe the scene from the narrator’s viewpoint, right?
Is there any other reasons why 〜ていた form is preferred at the end of a sentence (in the narrative part of novels)? (For example, if there are time adverbials such as 昨日/去年, etc in the main clause, we have to use 〜ていた form)


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## Contrafibularity

thetazuo said:


> I just can’t come up with a sentence whose main verb uses past form for a present event/state off-hand. I can only think of examples from novels (especially the novel in op).


Which part exactly of the novel in the OP do you think "uses past form for a present event/state"? 



thetazuo said:


> For example, if there are time adverbials such as 昨日/去年, etc in the main clause, we have to use 〜ていた form


There's no such rule. 



thetazuo said:


> So the main reason why in some cases 〜ていた form is preferred at the end of a sentence (in the narrative part of novels) is that the writer chooses to describe the scene from the narrator’s viewpoint, right?


I don't really know what you are asking about.  A certain form is used because it is the most accurate description of the action.  〜ていた indicates the action was ongoing or completed.   But if you are only talking about tense and this is what you mean by "default tense" in novels, I guess you can think that way.  Note that there are other forms than 〜ていた that indicate a past action.


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## Contrafibularity

Just a follow-up and sum-up of my statements here. 

The sentences in the novel sound perfectly natural, and under normal circumstances I wouldn't stop to think about the use of tense.  There are some cases where the writer could have written differently (e. g. 振り向いた instead of 振り向く), but the writer chose to write that way.   Why?   I DON'T KNOW.   Probably the writer didn't want the sentences to sound monotonous.


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## thetazuo

Thank you.


Contrafibularity said:


> I don't really know what you are asking about. A certain form is used because it is the most accurate description of the action. 〜ていた indicates the action was ongoing or completed.


I’m just asking about why in those examples (e.g. *送ってきていた* and *赴いていた*) the writer used ～ていた form when he could have used ～ている form? Can’t ～ている form also indicate the action was ongoing or completed?


Contrafibularity said:


> Which part exactly of the novel in the OP do you think "uses past form for a present event/state"?


*送ってきていた, 赴いていた, 声を詰まらせた, 問うてみた, etc.*
Is ～ていた form used for the same reason as why ～た form is used there? Because I can understand that the ～た form is like present perfect. If ～た form can be used for present state/event then there’s no reason why we can’t use ～ていた for present state/event.


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## Contrafibularity

I have nothing more to add to what I said in #13.  The writer _could have_ _written_ 送ってきている, 送っていた, or 送っている instead of 送ってきていた, but the writer _didn't_.  Why did he choose 送ってきていた?  I DON'T KNOW, but at least it sounds natural.  You are questioning the validity of a good sentence written by a native speaker of Japanese, a good sentence which another native speaker of Japanese (i. e. me) finds nothing wrong with. 



thetazuo said:


> *送ってきていた, 赴いていた, 声を詰まらせた, 問うてみた, etc.*


So now you are saying these are examples of "past form used for a present state"? 

Earlier (in #4) I asked if you would consider this sentence


thetazuo said:


> いつからそこにいたのか、廊下から、十香が不安げな眼差しを*送ってきていた*。


as a past event, and you practically said yes.


thetazuo said:


> If it is not a past event/state, why is it written in past form?


Your use of "past" and "present" is very confusing to me.



thetazuo said:


> Is ～ていた form used for the same reason as why ～た form is used there? Because I can understand that the ～た form is like present perfect. If ～た form can be used for present state/event then there’s no reason why we can’t use ～ていた for present state/event.


I honestly don't understand your question or your reasoning.  It seems you are trying to establish a rule that doesn't exist. 

This discussion is not going anywhere, and I'm afraid this is the best I could do for you.


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