# un manège de chevaux de bois



## MelB

I  used the expression in writing: «ma tête tournoie comme un manège de chevaux de bois» and was told that the expression was not french, but was grammatically correct.    I was a bit surprised. 

"un manège de chevaux de bois" is in my unabridged Colins Robert French dictionary as meaning merry-go-round.  I found/discovered the expression in a book of essays by Camus. 

Is the expression not French.  Is there a French expression for merry-go-round?  Do the French have merry-go-rounds?

Perhaps, the comment relates to my use of «ma tête tournoie» . . . and not to «un manège de chevaux de bois.»  I suppose I could have said, «ma tête file comme un manège de chevaux de bois».  

I wonder what people think here on this forum.


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## TA4U

A manège de chevaux de bois is rarely used, but still correct.
May I suggest: carrousel


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## MelB

That's fine also, and a bit "shorter."  What is it they say:  "brevity is the soul of wit."  I did like that image, though, of the "wooden horses going 'round."


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## deeosama

Yes it's correct, there is soe beautifull in paris like this one

http://www.grande-roue.com/location-maneges-carrousels/location-carrousel-1900.htm


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## bernik

I think there is nothing wrong with writing: ma tête tournoie comme un manège de chevaux de bois.

"A manège de chevaux de bois is rarely used"

Because there are not many of them !
Still, it gives quite a few results if you google it. 


"Is there a French expression for merry-go-round?"

just manège.


"carrousel"

Carrousel is not a popular French word.
I am not even sure how it should be pronounced.
(like carrouzel ?)


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## MelB

To me, the image of the wooden horses feels more traditional.  I mean, you can have a merry-go-round without horses or with only a few.  When you say, "manège," for merry-go-round you don't have a picture of it. When you say, "manège de chevaux de bois," it's all clear that you're talking about the more traditional, older type, with the horses, like the picture in the link deeosama provided, though that one isn't all horses (it does have some beautiful ones).


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## nopal

Bonjour 
Oui  /ma tête tournoie comme un manège de chevaux de bois/
Is totally correct , all the words you are using are french but we would not say this like that 
It sounds heavy to french ears 
ma tête tourne comme un manège is perfect enough and means the same 
You can find exactly the same "image"in a song of EDITH PIAF
"tu me fais tourner la tête , mon manège à moi c'est Toi .....


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## Agnès E.

MelB said:
			
		

> To me, the image of the wooden horses feels more traditional. I mean, you can have a merry-go-round without horses or with only a few. When you say, "manège," for merry-go-round you don't have a picture of it. When you say, "manège de chevaux de bois," it's all clear that you're talking about the more traditional, older type, with the horses, like the picture in the link deeosama provided, though that one isn't all horses (it does have some beautiful ones).


This is tue, Mel.
The thing is mainly the difference between French and English regarding concepts and what is important for them when describing.
An English speaker will find important and crucial to describe very acurately every detail, in order to give a sort of picturesque view (cinema-view?) of what he intends to say. Hence the importance of the _chevaux de bois_ part... and the utter superiority of English on French when it comes to technical descriptions!
A French speaker will find important to describe the movement, the general idea, letting aside all details that are felt superfluous and disturbing the general idea, such a the exact description of the carrousel. The French language leaves more place for the audience's imagination.
Hence the reaction of the francophone who replied to you in the first place, and the difficulty to adapt to each cultural point of view while translating.


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## MelB

But can't there be an aspect of just creating, out of the pieces that are there. I mean the "same old expressions" can be boring.  To know whether "ma tête tournoie comme un manège de chevaux de bois" is effective language in a piece of writing, wouldn't you need even in French to understand the context?  For example, if there is "horse imagery" in the writing (in nearby sentences), or maybe, the rest of the piece is a nostalgic, fin de siècle fashion, it could support using the "older image."  I mean, "Ma tête tournoie comme un manège," might be closer to a cliché.  Like a " . . . manège de chevaux do bois," would not be.  Isn't freshness in language important in French, as in English, making context important to see if the fabric of the piece (the other language in the other sentences) supports a different useage   for the simile.  The comment that the expression I used was not "French," simply seem all wrong to me!!!  One could say, it was a bad simile (and explain why).  Or that the word is outdated, and not supported by the language in the rest of the paragraph.  But to say that it's not French, seems not very literary or correct to me.

And I don't agree with that description, Agnes, of how French differs from English.   English can be a very precise language, but it can also be broadbrush.  "Of the whole wide world I stand alone and think/ till love and fame to nothingness do sink."  (Keats). 

or "The woods are lovely, dark and deep, 
     But I have promises to keep, 
     And miles to go before I sleep. 
     Miles to go before I sleep. "  (Frost).

There the language is simple.  Broadbrush . . .

And in English as in French, there's a differnece between the language in conversation, and that used in a more formal essay-type setting.  I wasn't suggesting that I used my sentence in conversation.  It was in a more formal context.


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## geve

I agree with you MelB, on the fact that the judgement was a bit severe. If it's grammatically correct (which was acknowledged), then why call it "not French" ? The person could have written at worst, "not common French" or "sounds a bit awkward in French"

I like the sentence you wrote. 
The usual expression in French would be "j'ai la tête qui tourne" - from the verb "tourner", not "tournoyer". Although nobody would say in everyday life "j'ai la tête qui tournoie", or "ma tête tournoie" (because "tournoyer" seems to imply a real physical movement), the rhyming of your sentence makes it flow naturally ; and the idea gets through very efficiently. You've written a nice _figure de style_, and you should be ackowledged for that  

Maybe that's what they were trying to say : that it's not an expression French people would commonly use. 
Well, French books are filled with expressions that French people wouldn't commonly use.


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## nopal

I understand that you want to create and I Do find it fair .
This is not  the point . In your sentence .Your words are all good and good also your grammar . The main thing , first is that you cannot say that your head "tournoie " you should say "tourne ".Tournoie is not used when you want to say something about  your  feelings . tournoie is used for things going round and round , birds may be in the sky , or clouds .You can make a lasso tournoyer ....Your head "tournoie "means that it goes round and round outside in the room or elsewhere ..wherever you are .
The head itself, not inside it .
What Agnes said was perfect to express the difference of expressing .
What I may want to say about ' manege de chevaux de bois ' It's that its sounds heavy because of to much precision to express a picture supposed to recall you souvenirs .
Agnes said it very well .
I tried wy own way .
But it's a great Idea you had , I appreciate .


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## MelB

In actuality, the head turns, it doesn't spin.  

"La tête tourne"

If one says, "La tête tournoie," [the heads spins] it's a metaphor, which is a poetic device used in French and English.    

If I do a Google search for , Ma tête tournoie, there are 16500, an example of which is, "Ma tête tournoie dans la frénésie des mots . . ."  But there are many many others.  

nopal, of course you can say, "ma tête tournoie," in French!!  And thousands of people do on the right occassion  They're using a metaphor which is, I think, what geve meant when she called it a "figure de style" (figure of speech??/ (because if they are not allowed to do that because of the constraints of the language, then I would just give up studying  French).   But in my reading, I haven't found French at all that way.  The French writers/poets are rich and creative in their use of words. 

 And the context is everything.  And thanks, geve, for the comment.  I mean I don't think the use of English and French are on a different planet when it comes to "figures de style."  Or English and French with the other romance languages.  They all do a similar thing with making comparisons, which literally make no sense at all, but which figuratively can be quite beautiful.  

As when Shakespeare said of Romeo after his death, "Take him and cut him into a thousand pieces/ and he would make the face of heaven shine so fine/ that all the world would fall in love with night/ and pay no worship to the garish sun."  Literally, that is nonesense.  But let me tell you, it's a wonderful, creative use of language.


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## genevieve

To my French canadian ears, it sounds very pretty and poetic. 

But, the way I would have thought first is: j'ai la tête qui tourne comme un carroussel _or _j'ai la tête qui tourne telle un manège forain


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## blinnith

bernik said:
			
		

> Carrousel is not a popular French word.
> I am not even sure how it should be pronounced.
> (like carrouzel ?)


Carrousel is as popular as "manège de chevaux de bois".
Carrousel is pronounced as "carroussel", as "sell" in english, not 'z' sound.


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## nopal

blinnith said:
			
		

> Carrousel is as popular as "manège de chevaux de bois".
> Carrousel is pronounced as "carroussel", as "sell" in english, not 'z' sound.



YES THAT'S RIGHT 
as popular .this is one point , because we never use carousel or the other manege de chevaux de bois in la vie de tous les jours .
The child says "maman je veux faire un tour de Manège "
Nothing else, sorry for that ,things don't always turn the way we wish to .


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## MelB

In all of the languages, there's a spoken use of words, an informal written language, a more formal written language, a poetic language.  How we might speak -- our choices there -- might vary, based on which one of these we're using.  Now genvieve, to say first, I would've done x, or y is helpful to me (because I'm not that familiar with the French language, and might not know), although you're French Canadian, so a French person from Paris might make a different first or second choice.  Yes, I read a French essay and saw, "manège de chevaux de bois," liked it (the image of the wooden horses) and wanted to use it in something I was writing.  It does help me to know what the more common uses are, because I've got to know that first.  So thanks for all of the help on this thread.  Because now I know that we have, "un carrousel," un manège,"  "un manège forain" (is that Canadian, or would a person in France use that one also?) and (maybe least common), "un manège de chevaux de bois."  Sometimes, one consciously wants to do something less common, so the language feels "newer," "fresher," and particularly if it works better in the context of the other words in the piece of writing one is creating.    

And also, even for oral language, if one saw an old fashioned merry-go-round, with a lot of beautiful horses, I find it hard to believe, someone French might not describe orally, "un manège de chevaux de bois."  I mean those beautiful wooden horses are there almost begging to be described like that.   Would one always be so restrained as to stop at "un manège," or "un tour de manège?"


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## greenblink2

Isn't A manège de chevaux de bois right?????? Ha ha! Knew it!!!! Thanks, you helped me too!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gil

Ma suggestion (s'il faut garder les chevaux):

Mes idées filent comme les chevaux de bois d'un vieux manège, elles décrivent des ronds et s'arrêtent à leur point de départ.

Désolé, mais c'est toute l'inspiration que j'ai pour le moment.


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## geve

MelB said:
			
		

> And also, even for oral language, if one saw an old fashioned merry-go-round, with a lot of beautiful horses, I find it hard to believe, someone French might not describe orally, "un manège de chevaux de bois." I mean those beautiful wooden horses are there almost begging to be described like that.  Would one always be so restrained as to stop at "un manège," or "un tour de manège?"


Absolutely right : if _un manège de chevaux de bois_ is less commonly used than _un manège_, it is simply because _les manèges de chevaux de bois_ are less common than _les manèges_. Yet, if one sees a _manège de chevaux de bois_, that's how one will call it. QED.
(and now, I haven't heard much "manège forain" in France, maybe more likely "manège de foire")

MelB, I think you understood why you got this comment : when you learn a language you're supposed to start with the basics, and then and only then, move to more elaborate concepts. Yet if you have a natural taste for words and what they offer in your own language, it's quite understandable that you would keep it when learning a new one.
Sometimes I try a pun in English, and a native might think that I misunderstood something (well, sometimes I really did  ) - how frustrating ! Then I tell them it was a joke, and they go "ah, ok...". Of course it's less fun when you have to explain  

Good luck with the French, MelB ! Please don't give up


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## anangelaway

Bonjour!

I'm not from Paris, but I have used 'Carrousel'' for ''Manège de chevaux de bois'' myself, more than once, or even ''le manège carrousel''.
''Un tour de manège'' of course, but which ''manège''? 
When taking some kids in those ''fêtes foraines'', if you ask the kids what sort of ''manège'' they are interested in, they will know exactly which one, calling it by its propre name, unless of course the little child is only 2: for the child, it is only a ''manège avec des chevaux de bois''.
Even once, one of my little sister, she was more than 4 at the time, told me she was too old for being on the Carrousel, and it was for babies...(so sweet) and funny!  

I personaly like the word Carrousel very much. 
The TLFi, has actually a great explanation on the origine of that word, which is quite interesting.
As for ''Manège de chevaux de bois'', I like it too, but only to use it to describe ''un carrousel''. ''Manège de chevaux'' is shorter, and could fit. 

Voici un *vieux carrousel d'époque* *Carrousel 1900*


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## MelB

Thanks for the encouraging comments, Geve (and don't give up the English puns) ( I'd like to hear a few!).  And Anangelaway, nice link/photo.

Gil, I can give up the horses.  At this point the discussion is more abstract, and relates more to the flexibility of French, and whether in a certain context there could ever be a place for them (the horses).  For what you have suggested, I like:  " Mes idées filent comme les chevaux de bois d'un vieux manège . . ."  and would stop right there.  The rest -- elles décrivent des ronds et s'arrêtent à leur point de départ" seems surplusage, as it's all implicit in the "manège."

When I mentioned context is everything, if I wrote: 

Chaque samedi quand mon grand-pêre sont allé à la piste -- il était flambeur -- ma grand-mère amenait sa petit fille (ma mère) au manège de chevaux de bois dans le parc.  Ma mère aimais bien monter un de ces chevaux  -- ils étaient peint en rouge, bleu, or jaune, et semblait d'un autre  siècle .   . . . Aussitôt que le manège a commencé à tourner, il y a de la musique, tellement jolie"

Of course, no doubt there's a million things wrong with what I just wrote, and it's all made up/fiction.     But here I'm contrasting grandfather going to the race track (where he bets on horses), and the merry-go-round, WITH the horses.  Also, I've emphasized the "other century aspect," evoking the earlier time.  I think it's not bad there to use "manège de chevaux de bois," that is, I'm emphasizing the "less used" expression for merry-go-round because the context seems to support it.  No?


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## Gil

> The rest -- elles décrivent des ronds et s'arrêtent à leur point de départ" seems surplusage, as it's all implicit in the "manège."


 D'accord.
Mes suggestions pour ton texte:
"





> Tous les samedis que mon grand-pêre allait à la piste -- il était flambeur -- ma grand-mère amenait sa petite-fille (ma mère) au manège de chevaux de bois dans le parc. Ma mère aimait bien monter ces chevaux -- ils étaient peints en rouge, bleu, jaune, et semblaient appartenir à un autre siècle . . . . Aussitôt que le manège se mettait à tourner, on entendait de la musique, et cette musique était tellement jolie..."


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## MelB

Merci.  Y-a-il une différence entre "Chaque samedi quand," et "Tous les samedis que?"  Ne sont-ils pas la même chose?    "Allait à la piste" [utilisation de l'imparfait ici] est correct.   J'aime bien  "semblaient appartenir," de même que votre changement à ma dernière phrase avec un verbe, ("entendait"), qui est plus actif qu' "il y a . . ."  bien que je préfère ne pas répéter le mot, "musique."  Peut-être là, "Aussitôt que le manège se mettait à tourner, on entendait de la musique, et il était tellement jolie."


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## MelB

Gil, maintenant, ici est ce que nous avons:

"Tous les samedis que mon grand-pêre allait à la piste -- il était flambeur -- ma grand-mère amenait sa petite-fille (ma mère) au manège de chevaux de bois dans le parc. Ma mère aimait bien monter ces chevaux -- ils étaient peints en rouge, bleu, jaune, et semblaient appartenir à un autre siècle . . . . Aussitôt que le manège se mettait à tourner, on entendait de la musique, et il était tellement jolie..."

Et bien sûr, pourquoi pas une ligne dernière? 

"Les années plus tard quand elle en a pensé, elle s'est rappelée qu'elle avait été si heureuse dans cette époque de sa vie, et le manège de chevaux de bois -- le souvenir de lui, la musique, sa jeuneusse perdue -- filait [tournoyait] dans sa tête."

Ou quelque chose comme ça.


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## nopal

Bonjour Mel 
En France "Allait à la piste " ne signifie pas "aller aux courses"  ou "  à l'hyppodrome "ou au champs de courses  .. aller à la piste ne veut rien dire de réellement ... 
De même "tous les samedis que ...est inesthétique , Tous les Samedi quand ... est parfait


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## LV4-26

_ma tête tournoie comme un manège de cheveaux de bois_

That sentence is perfectly OK. It's French all right and sounds nice. I can't see any problem with it.
The use of _tournoie_ in the place of _tourne_ improves the global rythm of the sentence.
The precision "_de cheveaux de bois_" makes the image more vivid.

Now if the question were : is it used everyday? or is it a set phrase? of course, the answer is no.

The only problem I would see depends on the kind of writing. If you were describing a quick succession of events, say, in a kind of récit where action is more important than description, then you'd have to use shorter sentences and wouldn't need too much detail. In that specific case, that sentence might sounds odd or out of place and you'd rather write simply_ J'ai la tête qui tourne.

_EDIT : Now that I think of it, the "not French" bit could be the use of _Ma_ _tête tourne/tournoie _instead of _J'ai la tête qui tourne/tournoie _which is considered to be more idiomatic* in French. Still, to say that it is not French is a bit exaggerated.

* the same way as you say _je *me* lave *les* mains_ instead of j_e lave *mes*_ _mains_. Only the latter really sounds "not French" while your sentence doesn't.


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## MelB

Thanks for the help on this.  I was away for a couple of days, but appreciate  very much all the comments.  I think my dictionary might have misled me on "piste" for horsetrack.  I'm almost sure I got it from there????  I wanted to use a word that meant horsetrack without using the word "chevaux or cheval" as I didn't want to be repetitive with that word.  Anyway, my recollection on "piste" now is that it means a lot of things. Like a circus ring, track for runners/people, and quite a bit more.  Regarding horse racing,the suggestions of, nopal, "à l'hyppodrome "ou au champs de courses" are very helpful.  They restored my memory to what sounds right.  And also, LV4-26, I appreciate hearing from you on "tournoyer" also.  We use expressions all the time in English, like "to leave my head spinning," or in that vein.  And when I did my Google search, it sounded like "tournoyer" was used quite a bit in that context also.  And, of course, all I added was a modest merry-go-round to the use of "tournoyer."  Hope the weather in France  is a nice as  the spring-like day we're getting here in Virginia,


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## QBU

"on entendait de la musique, et elle était tellement jolie..."
Little Grammatical tuning. ELLE refers to the music therefore it is feminin.
I enjoyed this thread very much and liked it that you are using imagery.
So good luck and don't be bugged by old rigid minds
Catherine


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## MelB

Catherine, 

Thank you for your comment.     I'm glad you enjoyed the thread.   For those of us struggling with our French, I think, also, there was quite a bit to learn from all of the comments -- some even in disagreement, which made it all the more interesting.  Yes, "la musique."  Sometimes, those gender issues slip by me if I'm not totally alert.


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