# Tension caused by language differences



## Shu_Fen

*Many should have read Alphonse Daudet's "La Dernière Classe" (The Last Class), a story take place in Alsace-Lorraine (Elsaß-Lothringen) where the Germans banned the use of French in school after winning a war against France in mid-19th C.  People may have had conflict about language use then in that region.*

*Today, the Greek and Turkish languages on Cyprus may be in rivalry (or even enemy) position.  Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.*

*Any other cases of tension on language use caused by politics, nationalism reasons?  Russian vs Ukrainian?   Swedish vs Finnish?  Scottish (Gaelic) vs English?*


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## ireney

Shu_Fen said:


> *Today, the Greek and Turkish languages on Cyprus may be in rivalry (or even enemy) position.  Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.*



Nope, nothing to do with language.  In fact most Turkish-Cypriots of old knew Greek too (they were the minority, in many cases living in mixed villages/towns so they learnt Greek. Same way as many citizens of the Ottoman Empire knew Turksih, and as Turkish citizens of Greek descend speak Turkish and vice versa).

There have been times (at least in Greece that I know of these times belong to the past) where the Turkish language was being taught in minority schools but quite a few hurdles were put in the way of teaching it.

Languages are never opposing each other. People do and sometimes "use" the languages in their fight. As far as I know Cyprus doesn't have a problem with the Turkish language although it has a lot of problems with Turkey. I don't know how things are at the other side of the _green line_ (I hope this is neutral enough!)


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## timpeac

Hi Shu Fen

What is the question you are actually asking? What are you questioning about linguistic tension? I think this thread will become a boring list of examples without an actual question being asked. Is it what is the motivating factor to put these languages in conflict in the first place? What we can do to overcome it? If there are any positive sides to it? Etc etc - what's your angle?


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## Brioche

Shu_Fen said:


> *Many should have read Alphonse Daudet's "La Dernière Classe" (The Last Class), a story take place in Alsace-Lorraine (Elsaß-Lothringen) where the Germans banned the use of French in school after winning a war against France in mid-19th C. People may have had conflict about language use then in that region.*


 
This sort of thing is pretty typical. 
The French returned the compliment after 1918.
The French also did their bit of ethnic cleansing, and threw out anyone who had arrived in the region after 1870.


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## Outsider

Shu_Fen said:


> Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.


I don't believe that's true, Shu Fen. You can get along fine in Catalonia speaking Spanish only.


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> I don't believe that's true, Shu Fen. You can get along fine in Catalonia speaking Spanish only.


I was in Barcelona for a few months and got along fine just speaking Castillian...but native Spaniards seemed to have a harder time of it if they only spoke Catillian. If I as an obvious foreigner (accent, general look) went to the market and spoke in Castillian then the market traders would happily chat away with me in that language. I did hear Spaniards speaking Castillian (or the sounded like Spaniards to me given the fluency) but they were often replied to in Catalan. Just one example, so maybe it's not representative but that was my impression.


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## Outsider

timpeac said:


> I did hear Spaniards speaking Castillian (or the sounded like Spaniards to me given the fluency) but they were often replied to in Catalan. Just one example, so maybe it's not representative but that was my impression.


But was that a problem for the Spaniards in question? Did they throw their hands up in the air in desperation, because they were unable to understand the locals?


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## clipper

Just to add my personal experience:

A colleague of mine who works in Barcelona is Italian but has had to learn Catalan in order to be able to work there.


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## heidita

Outsider said:


> But was that a problem for the Spaniards in question? Did they throw their hands up in the air in desperation, because they were unable to understand the locals?


 
Well, if they didn't Outsider, they were very patient, as no only-Spanish speaking person, like me for instance, can understand Catalan. And it would be very rude to be answered in Catalan if you address somebody in Spanish.
Personally it has never happend to me, but , of course, I am a foreigner.


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## Outsider

clipper said:


> Just to add my personal experience:
> 
> A colleague of mine who works in Barcelona is Italian but has had to learn Catalan in order to be able to work there.


Did he have to learn _Catalan_, or would any _local language_ have sufficed? Perhaps he preferred to learn Catalan, rather than Spanish...



heidita said:


> And it would be very rude to be answered in Catalan if you address somebody in Spanish.


Tell me, would it be rude to be answered in Spanish, if you only spoke Catalan?


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> But was that a problem for the Spaniards in question? Did they throw their hands up in the air in desperation, because they were unable to understand the locals?


I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I got the distinct impression that they were being made to feel uncomfortable. I could well believe that if people won't even let you buy your cabbage in Castillian things are going to be tougher in a job situation.


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## heidita

clipper said:


> Just to add my personal experience:
> 
> A colleague of mine who works in Barcelona is Italian but has had to learn Catalan in order to be able to work there.


 

This is what I understand, but there are exceptions. Our dear friend Natasha actually lives and works in Barcelona as often stated by her, and as far as I know she doesn't speak Catalan. But she will surely correct me if she does.


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> Tell me, would it be rude to be answered in Spanish, if you only spoke Catalan?


Well, obviously I can't know that none of them spoke Castillian. I can say, however, that I personally never came across a single person in Barcelona who I couldn't talk to in Castillian (and have them reply in the same etc).


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## Outsider

timpeac said:


> I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I got the distinct impression that they were being made to feel uncomfortable.


So it was just an impression of yours...



timpeac said:


> I could well believe that if people won't even let you buy your cabbage in Castillian things are going to be tougher in a job situation.


I think you are comparing apples with oranges. Minoritary languages are often used more by people of lower social status -- the kind that you are likely to buy cabbages from.


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## natasha2000

heidita said:


> This is what I understand, but there are exceptions. Our dear friend Natasha actually lives and works in Barcelona as often stated by her, and as far as I know she doesn't speak Catalan. But she will surely correct me if she does.


 
I confirm this. I, as many other foreigners here in Barcelona, do not speak Catalan, yet I have a job, and not a manual one (meaning I do not need to speak while working ). As a matter of fact, I work as a translator, too.

Knowing Catalan is for sure a certain advantage in Barcelona, because your possibilities are a little bit wider, but it is not in any case an indispensable accessory to find a job.


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## natasha2000

clipper said:


> Just to add my personal experience:
> 
> A colleague of mine who works in Barcelona is Italian but has had to learn Catalan in order to be able to work there.


 
This depends on what kind of job your firiend was aspiring. This is not a rule, for sure.


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## natasha2000

Excuse me, and I apologize in advance if I am being off topic or rude, but I am a little bit fed up with this on going theme on how Catalons are so big bad boogie people.

If someone says something like this:
*



Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.

Click to expand...

*
I would expect at least to name the source where he read or heard this from. Otherwise, I would recommend to keep their mouth shut. It is really annoying to hear such things over and over again in this forum. A little bit more respect towards something you don't know so much about would be really appreciated.
Thank you.

Now mods, you are free to delete me.


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## heidita

Outsider said:


> Tell me, would it be rude to be answered in Spanish, if you only spoke Catalan?


 

We must not forget , Outsider, this country is Spain, there is no such thing as a Catalan _Only_ speaking Catalan.* Both* languages are official languages in Catalonia. 
So, yes, timpeac is quite right. If a Spanish speaking person is answered back in Catalan, this is merely to make this person feel uncomfortable.
I would also like to add that this is certainly not the rule, normally any Catalan would immediately swoop to Spanish if spoken to in Spanish. But there are weirdos everywhere.


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> I did hear Spaniards speaking Castillian (or the sounded like Spaniards to me given the fluency) but they were often replied to in Catalan. Just one example, so maybe it's not representative but that was my impression.


 
This is something that usually happens in Catalonia, among their inhabitants who speak or at least understand both languages. And nobody gets offended. Some of them usually speak inSpanish, and others use as their usual language Catalan. Giving that both interlocutors are aware that the other one can at least UNDERSTAND him, they both speak language which is more "handy" fore eacho of them. If a Catalan speaker notices that the other one doesn't seem to understand him, he will easily switch to Spanish, without any problem.

I really do not understand why this is so wrongly interpreted. Really. 

I myself, understand Catalan a lot, and usually have these kind of conversations if the conversations are simple. But if the conversation becomes more complexed, people see that in the end, I do not speak Catalan and speak tome in Spanish without any problem. This goes for any only-Spanish speaking person - all those American immigrants, for example.


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## Outsider

Here, here, *Natasha*. 

I'm going to assume that *Shu Fen*, who lives very far away, was innocently misinformed about the situation in Catalonia. But I have to agree that one should get some good, solid evidence before racing to condemn the big, bad minority languages.


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> So it was just an impression of yours...
> 
> I think you are comparing apples with oranges. Minoritary languages are often used more by people of lower social status -- the kind that you are likely to buy cabbages from.


Of course it was just an impression of mine.

I would have thought this was obvious from my earlier use of the phrase



> Just one example, so maybe it's not representative but that was my impression.


 
Look - as I said right at the start I really think this thread needs some direction as it is just going to be a list of possible antagonisms with half-baked assertions, with some people understanding one thing and others something else.

And I don't know what you mean by comparing apples with oranges. I'm not comparing anything at all. I'm providing a real-life example of where I saw conflict between Catalan and Castillian in Barcelona. I know these people spoke Castillian because they would quite happily do so with me. This therefore gives me some reason to believe getting some jobs in Barcelona speaking only Castillian would be difficult.


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## Outsider

heidita said:


> We must not forget , Outsider, this country is Spain, there is no such thing as a Catalan _Only_ speaking Catalan.* Both* languages are official languages in Catalonia.
> So, yes, timpeac is quite right. If a Spanish speaking person is answered back in Catalan, this is merely to make this person feel uncomfortable.


Why are you assuming that the "Spanish-speaking person" will be bothered by being addressed in Catalan? How do you know they don't speak Catalan, too?
And, even if they don't speak Catalan, what's stopping them from replying "Me disculpe, pero no hablo catalán. ¿Podría contestarme en español, por favor?"


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## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> This is something that usually happens in Catalonia, among their inhabitants who speak or at least understand both languages. And nobody gets offended. Some of them usually speak inSpanish, and others use as their usual language Catalan. Giving that both interlocutors are aware that the other one can at least UNDERSTAND him, they both speak language which is more "handy" fore eacho of them. If a Catalan speaker notices that the other one doesn't seem to understand him, he will easily switch to Spanish, without any problem.
> 
> I really do not understand why this is so wrongly interpreted. Really.
> 
> I myself, understand Catalan a lot, and usually have these kind of conversations if the conversations are simple. But if the conversation becomes more complexed, people see that in the end, I do not speak Catalan and speak tome in Spanish without any problem. This goes for any only-Spanish speaking person - all those American immigrants, for example.


Thanks for the inside view Natasha. I'm glad that it is all done on such a friendly note after all.

Do you not think, though, that this shows that you would need to speak Catalan to work in a market in Barcelona?


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> Thanks for the inside view Natasha. I'm glad that it is all done on such a friendly note after all.
> 
> Do you not think, though, that this shows that you would need to speak Catalan to work in a market in Barcelona?


 
Market? Do you mean, selling vegetables? 

I will assume that this is a joke, Timpaec.


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## Outsider

timpeac said:


> Look - as I said right at the start I really think this thread needs some direction as it is just going to be a list of possible antagonisms with half-baked assertions, with some people understanding one thing and others something else.
> 
> And I don't know what you mean by comparing apples with oranges. I'm not comparing anything at all. I'm providing a real-life example of where I saw conflict between Catalan and Castillian in Barcelona. I know these people spoke Castillian because they would quite happily do so with me. This therefore gives me some reason to believe getting some jobs in Barcelona speaking only Castillian would be difficult.


No. You saw something which _you chose to interpret_ as a conflict. I'm still not convinced it really was a conflict, from what you've written so far. And, no, what you see at markets does not say anything about what it is like to look for a job in Catalonia.

I agree with you, though, on the first thing you say: Shu Fen needs to explain his query better.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> Why are you assuming that the "Spanish-speaking person" will be bothered by being addressed in Catalan? How do you know they don't speak Catalan, too?
> And, even if they don't speak Catalan, what's stopping them from replying "Me disculpe, pero no hablo catalán. ¿Podría contestarme en español, por favor?"


 
Correcto.

If you don't speak Catalan, you can always say, "Sorry, I don't speak Catalan, can you speak Spanish?"

And the Catalan will change the chip, and even more, in most of the cases, he will aplogize to you.


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## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> Market? Do you mean, selling vegetables?
> 
> I will assume that this is a joke, Timpaec.


No - not a joke If people feel so at home selling speaking Catalan in markets would someone really fit in if they spoke none? Would they themselves feel happy to work there and would their employers not prefer someone who spoke Catalan so that they didn't need to explain they didn't every time a delivery came and they were spoken to in Catalan etc?


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> No. You saw something which _you chose to interpret_ as a conflict. I'm still not convinced it really was a conflict, from what you've written so far. And, no, what you see at markets does not say anything about what it is like to look for a job in Catalonia.
> 
> I agree with you, though, on the first thing you say: Shu Fen needs to explain his query better.


It is conflict of some degree if a customer speaks in one language and is replied to in another even though the seller knows his language. Maybe not huge conflict but conflict nonetheless.


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## heidita

Outsider said:


> Why are you assuming that the "Spanish-speaking person" will be bothered by being addressed in Catalan? How do you know they don't speak Catalan, too?
> And, even if they don't speak Catalan, what's stopping them from replying "Me disculpe, pero no hablo catalán. ¿Podría contestarme en español, por favor?"


 
I am not assuming anything, Outsider, I know. As I live here.

My husband is Madrileño, he frequently works in Barcelona, and now and again he has this very nice experience, where some ultra-Catalans do not wish to speak Spanish, as ALL of them do, and they expect my husband to speak Catalan. And of course, this is very bothering. 
I do not know why it should be necessary to indicate, listen I do not speak Catalan, if you have previously addressed the other person in one of the local official languages. In my husband's case it cannot be a mistake, as everybody else speaks Spanish to him, of course. 

In any case, I have read Natahsa's post and we must consider here that both she or myself are foreigners. The behaviour towards foreigners is different, as also timpeac has pointed out. I also see a difference of behaviour towards a Madrileño in comparison to a Spaniard from another region. Might this have something to do with he sworn enmity in football?


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## timpeac

Sorry just noticed this bit of your quote



> And, no, what you see at markets does not say anything about what it is like to look for a job in Catalonia.


But of course it does! Whether there is conflict between the seller and the customer aside, surely this would go to show that Catalan really is necessary to work in these more manual jobs - or are you assuming that anyone who comes to Barcelona is going to be working in office jobs where it might not be so necessary?


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## natasha2000

heidita said:


> Well, if they didn't Outsider, they were very patient, as no only-Spanish speaking person, like me for instance, can understand Catalan. And it would be very rude to be answered in Catalan if you address somebody in Spanish.
> Personally it has never happend to me, but , of course, I am a foreigner.


 
I am a foreigner, too.
I was addressed many times in Catalan. I was answered many times in Catalan when I spoke Spanish. The only thing you should do is to continue in Spanish, or if you do not understand, to say: "Perdón?" And theperson will notice you don't speak Catalan, and he will continue in Spanish.

I assure you that any Catalan when goes out of Catalonia, speaks only Spanish.
In Catalonia, they use their constitutional right and they speakCatalan among themselves. But there are many Catalans who choose Spanish and not Catalan for their usual language. Thosepeople understand Catalan and speak Catalan but they prefer to speak in Castilian. The same goes for those who chose Catalan as their usual language. When two people like this meet each other, they can perfectly speak each one on his language of choice, and they will understand each other without taking any offence.
Therefore one Catalan who usually speaks Catalan, cannot possibly know that someone who aproaches him speaking in perfect Spanish is NOT his neighbor who speaks and understands both languages. Therefore you have to indicate him you don't understand him, or simply you would like him to speak toyou in Spanish. No offence taken from him. Never. So you wouldn't feel offended, either.
IMHO.


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> No - not a joke If people feel so at home selling speaking Catalan in markets would someone really fit in if they spoke none? Would they themselves feel happy to work there and would their employers not prefer someone who spoke Catalan so that they didn't need to explain they didn't every time a delivery came and they were spoken to in Catalan etc?


 
I work in a company where most of workers are Catalans who normally speak Catalan. My boss understands Catalan, but he does not speak Catalan. Or he doesn't want to speak it, this is something that I still have to discover. When they speak Catalan among themselves, I try to understand, BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT. My boss does not want. They know it so they speak Spanish in front of him. Not because he is a boss, because they would do the same with me if I showed I do not want to bother with it.
Therefore, if they speak in Catalan, and I understand, they continue speaking it. When they notice I do not understand, they pass to Spanish, or if I ask them to pass to `Spanish they do. But this is only if we speak chitchat.
When we work, they speak to me the language I understand - Spanish. They are not so stupid to interpone their national feelings to business.
Communication is what is most important for them, believe it or not.


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## heidita

timpeac said:


> It is conflict of some degree if a customer speaks in one language and is replied to in another even though the seller knows his language. Maybe not huge conflict but conflict nonetheless.


 

Exactly. 

The other way round though, is quite understandable. I only had one experience with this in the Basque land actually. I entered a shop and for some reason I was taken for a Basque, as there are many fair people around I gather. So , the woman very happily spoke in perfect ( I suppose ) Basque to me. I must have looked very stunned as she immediately changed to Spanish.


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## natasha2000

heidita said:


> In any case, I have read Natahsa's post and we must consider here that both she or myself are foreigners. The behaviour towards foreigners is different, as also timpeac has pointed out. I also see a difference of behaviour towards a Madrileño in comparison to a Spaniard from another region. Might this have something to do with he sworn enmity in football?


I am repeating. There is no difference in treatment Catalans give to foreigners or non-Catalan speaking Spaniards. Of course, there are exceptions , but then, who is perfect? Can you claim that no only-Spanish speaking person is nationalists and schowinists?

I also have people from other parts of Spain who do not speak Catalan and work in my firm. They are addressed each time in Spanish.


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## heidita

natasha2000 said:


> Of course, there are *exceptions *, but then, who is perfect? Can you claim that no only-Spanish speaking person is a nationalist and schowinist?


 
Very true!


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## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> I work in a company where most of workers are Catalans who normally speak Catalan. My boss understands Catalan, but he does not speak Catalan. Or he doesn't want to speak it, this is something that I still have to discover. When they speak Catalan among themselves, I try to understand, BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT. My boss does not want. They know it so they speak Spanish in front of him. Not because he is a boss, because they would do the same with me if I showed I do not want to bother with it.
> Therefore, if they speak in Catalan, and I understand, they continue speaking it. When they notice I do not understand, they pass to Spanish, or if I ask them to pass to `Spanish they do. But this is only if we speak chitchat.
> When we work, they speak to me the language I understand - Spanish. They are not so stupid to interpone their national feelings to business.
> Communication is what is most important for them, believe it or not.


Wow, Natasha - calm down. You seem to be assuming that everyone who works in Barcelona works in nice cosmpolitan understanding offices. How does this relate to someone going round in a truck making delieveries to shops round Barcelona, for example. How about someone who owns their own car garage. Are they going to be 100% happy to hire a salesman who speaks only Castillian and no Catalan? I find it hard to imagine so.


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## natasha2000

heidita said:


> I
> I do not know why it should be necessary to indicate, listen I do not speak Catalan, if you have previously addressed the other person in one of the local official languages.


 
I explained this in my post Nº31.


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> Wow, Natasha - calm down. You seem to be assuming that everyone who works in Barcelona works in nice cosmpolitan understanding offices. How does this relate to someone going round in a truck making delieveries to shops round Barcelona, for example. How about someone who owns their own car garage. Are they going to be 100% happy to hire a salesman who speaks only Castillian and no Catalan? I find it hard to imagine so.


 
OK. you're right. I will calm down, and I will unsuscribe form this thread. As many times before, I know that this kind of discussions lead to nowhere. I am just a little bit sick and tired of reading clichés from people who do not live in Catalonia, and who "heard" this or that from friends, or "read" in some place. I have never read some claims like that written by anyone actually living in Catalonia.

So, you are all free to tell anything you have "heard" or "read", here or in any other thread of this content, nobody will be here to contradict you. At least I won't be here. 
Have fun.


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## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> OK. you're right. I will calm down, and I will unsuscribe form this thread. As many times before, I know that this kind of discussions lead to nowhere. I am just a little bit sick and tired of reading clichés from people who do not live in Catalonia, and who "heard" this or that from friends, or "read" in some place. I have never read some claims like that written by anyone actually living in Catalonia.
> 
> So, you are all free to tell anything you have "heard" or "read", here or in any other thread of this content, nobody will be here to contradict you. At least I won't be here.
> Have fun.


Well I would like to point out that I repeated nothing I have read or heard, but something I saw with my own eyes. 

You claim that there are reasonale explanations for what I saw, fair enough. 

I am very aware that I was a foreigner there for a relatively short time and so at the time I even said 





> Just one example, so maybe it's not representative but that was my impression.


 
I gave this as an example of a workplace in Barcelona where Catalan seemed greatly preferred, and I still think that looks true. I think it is a reasonable deduction that someone speaking no catalan would run into some difficulties trying to work in such a situaiton, and I still think that looks true.

So please don't around accusing me of passing on third hand information as gospel without questioning it because that is a foundless accusation.


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## Lusitania

I'm sure there is not condemning, of course either Catalan or Spanish. It's many times the attitude of people involved as Heidita mentioned. And I mean on both sides. It's also usual to see that if a Gallego or Catalan (not to mention Euskerra) if they write in Catalan or Gallego in a online forum, I've seen that they are either ignored or insulted. So it wouldn't be any surprise if by any chance in Catalunya sometimes there would situations were people are made unconfortable on purpose.

However, this is not the rule. For example, I met many Catalans living here in lisbon and also spanish from other regions and everybody gets along fine. Also my Spanish teachers are from many regions of Spain and many are Catalans and they work perfectly together.

I've always spoke with Catalans in portuguese and they perfectly understood me and replied in spanish. 

However, we can't deny that there is a tension, between Catalan and Spanish, otherwise we would be discussing it as we are.

P.S I do have a crush on Catalunya and I admit it. The Catalans have been the nicest people I met. My first friends from the other side of the border are Catalans. If by any chance I didn't wrote this post with a neutral perspective I apologize.


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> I gave this as an example of a workplace in Barcelona where Catalan seemed greatly preferred, and I still think that looks true. I think it is a reasonable deduction that someone speaking no catalan would run into some difficulties trying to work in such a situaiton, and I still think that looks true.


Of course it is preferred language if all peasants are Catalans, and come from Catalan villages where they speak their mother tongue - Catalan. It is NOT language preffered, but more spoken. I think it is normal, don't you? In England, it would be really rare to hear people speaking Chinese? Catalan is their mother tongue and they have constitutional right to use it when they talk among themselves. But if someone prefers speaking in Spanish, they would not have any problem in switching the language. nopt at all.



> So please don't around accusing me of passing on third hand information as gospel without questioning it because that is a foundless accusation


 
I am not accusing you on passing around third hand info. I have already said it was nothing personal. It's just that I considered your post handy. I also know that many tourists came to Barcelona with so-called pre-knowledge about how Catalans are, which is in 99% false. And you also cannot see true colors being here only a couple of months, let alone few days. That is all I am talking about.

On the other hand, I feel i should explain a little bit about working here. As i said, knowledge of Catalan is a plus in getting a better job, but not an indispensable asset. A machanic, plumber, or whatever job where more manual arts than communication skills are needed, you do not need Catalan at all. As far as other types of jobs are concerned, it all depends. I read tons of job announcements and my conclusion is: depending on the sort of clients, firms require or not Catalan. And it is completely their own choice, not imposed by any law. I worked as a hotel receptionist, and later in the same hotel in bookings department, and they were more interested in me knowing English than Catalan. Normal, because their clients are foreigners, and not Catalans. I also worked in one insurrance company, and I wasn't asked to know Catalan - normal. I was attending people from all over Spain. I needed Spanish, not Catalan. But if you want to work, for example, in a lawers buffet, you would be needing Catalan, since their clients ARE Catalans, and as the Catalan Constitution says, the clinet has right to be served in any of two official languages in Catalonia, and those are Spanish and Catalan. Therefore, you would need to know Catalan and Spanish. So, the market decides if one compny would ask Catalan or not. If that firm works mostly in Catalonia, their workers would need to speak Catalan. And if they are more oriented to Spain, than only Spanish. The same goes if the firm works mostly with, for example, Netherlands. If that firm needs an export-import agent, they would look for a person who speaks Duch. Or at least English.
Now one personal point of view: Catalans are in 99% practical people. They are business people and want to make money and to prosper. No Catalan businessman would permit himself to loose money only because of the language or nationalism.That is why I like them. 
PS: Interesting historical point. After the defeat of 11th of September (which will be celebrated on Monday) 1714, Catalans griefed only a couple of days. Very soon, they regrouped, and went back to work. And the life went on...

EDIT: I have heard that banks now look for immigrants to work in their offices, in order to get closer to other immigrants -possible clients. A Chinese will be more open to another Chinese who speaks with him in Chinese, than to a person who is difficult to communicate with. This is a strategic business step and ithas nothing ot do with nacionalism. So, I really do not see anything offensive if Catalan firms in Catalonia, working on exclusively Catalan market, demand from their workers to speak Catalan. It is a kind of logical, don't you think?


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## cuchuflete

Natasha,
You are being neither off topic nor rude.  The thread starter made an unsubstantiated assertion, which you, resident in Catalunya, know to be a total falsehood.  You have corrected the false statement.  For that I thank you.

I have spent time in Barcelona, and have never had any difficulty whatsoever communicating in Spanish.  I have been treated with courtesy at all times.  I have friends who work in Barcelona, and who do not speak Català, and they also have no difficulties.  They agree with you that knowing both official languages would be an advantage.

This topic has been beat to death by repetition.  I'm glad you are brave enough to suggest that we move on from it.  Neither side is apt to convince the other, so there is little point to the discussion.  



natasha2000 said:


> Excuse me, and I apologize in advance if I am being off topic or rude, but I am a little bit fed up with this on going theme on how Catalons are so big bad boogie people.
> 
> If someone says something like this:
> 
> 
> I would expect at least to name the source where he read or heard this from. Otherwise, I would recommend to keep their mouth shut. It is really annoying to hear such things over and over again in this forum. A little bit more respect towards something you don't know so much about would be really appreciated.
> Thank you.
> 
> Now mods, you are free to delete me.


----------



## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> Of course it is preferred language if all peasants are Catalans, and come from Catalan villages where they speak their mother tongue - Catalan. It is NOT language preffered, but more spoken. I think it is normal, don't you? In England, it would be really rare to hear people speaking Chinese?


Absolutely. And it would be quite difficult to get a job in England if you only spoke Chinese and no English. Which is my point (although nowhere near as extreme as that) about Barcelona and Catalan and Castillian. I can imagine there are jobs where you would be at an extreme disadvantage if you spoke no Catalan.

By the sound of what you say when Shu Fen said

*Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.*

it was too much of a generalisation. Sometimes it is often it isn't.


----------



## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> By the sound of what you say when Shu Fen said
> *Inside Spain, if you don't speak or understand Catalan, pretty difficult to have a job in Barcelona with Castilian only.*
> 
> it was too much of a generalisation. Sometimes it is often it isn't.


 
Sorry if it sounded like this. Maybe I was just to hasty and fed up with seing the "beating a dead horse" again.
But look his sentence. He says "pretty difficult". Well it is NOT "pretty difficult". It is as difficult as in any other part of Spain (maybe not, maybe even easier, because if it weren't there wouldn't be so many immigrants from other parts of Spain and world here)...
Knowing Catalan is additional asset, but not a must.


----------



## Fernando

As said in other threads, the problem with the use of Catalan only is in relation with the attitude of Catalan Government. Aside from some stupids, as the friends of Heidita's husband.

Foreigners should notice that the treatment is anyway asymmetrical: The stupids will not have any problem in speaking in Spanish with you, but they will frown any Spaniard (living or not in Catalonia) who speaks in Spanish. Much the same as one forero told about Quebec: The quebeçois did not want to speak a word in English till he sweared he was a New Yorker.


----------



## timpeac

natasha2000 said:


> Sorry if it sounded like this. Maybe I was just to hasty and fed up with seing the "beating a dead horse" again.
> But look his sentence. He says "pretty difficult". Well it is NOT "pretty difficult". It is as difficult as in any other part of Spain (maybe not, maybe even easier, because if it weren't there wouldn't be so many immigrants from other parts of Spain and world here)...
> Knowing Catalan is additional asset, but not a must.


Absolutely. I haven't taken real offence at what you've said to me so far because I can see what you're arguing against. It's just that you've inferred from my words some sort of anti-Catalan attitude that doesn't exist. This topic (ill-defined as it was) was not about Catalonians hating Castillians but about whether it was difficult to get a job in Barcelona speaking only Castillian and my post was intended to refer to that. I think and continue to think that it could be in some areas, yes. I have no reason to make swipes at Catalonians anyway since I have always found them most congenial.


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## ireney

So now that Turkish vs. Greek in Cyprus and Castillian vs. Catalan in Spain are proved by people with intimate knowledge to be false "rivalries" we only have the Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen case.


----------



## natasha2000

ireney said:


> So now that Turkish vs. Greek in Cyprus and Castillian vs. Catalan in Spain are proved by people with intimate knowledge to be false "rivalries" we only have the Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen case.


YES, Ireney! YES!
Let's leave the poor Catalan horse alone, and beat someone else's dead horse for a change...


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## timpeac

I'll say what I've said already several times in this thread - it needs a proper question otherwise it might as well be "argue amongst yourselves about any potential nationalistic rivalries you are aware of" (oh, but we can't help ourselves!).


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## natasha2000

timpeac said:


> I'll say what I've said already several times in this thread - it needs a proper question otherwise it might as well be "argue amongst yourselves about any potential nationalistic rivalries you are aware of" (oh, but we can't help ourselves!).


 
Well, one was not mentioned, but this dead horse is beaten to death in Slavic forum - Serbian/Croatian.

Just to add more "dead horses" to this thread, so Catalan and Turkish/Greek horse don't feel lonely....


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## zebedee

Moderator Notice:

Let's all stop beating dead horses before the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Protection against Cruelty to Animals) gets onto us.

To put them all these fine animals out of their misery I'm closing this thread.

Shu Fen, if you'd like to re-focus your original post for this thread so that some meaningful discussion might result from it without anyone having to batter more dead four-legged equine friends, please PM me with it.

Thank you.


----------



## zebedee

Thanks, Shu Fen, for re-focussing your original post. Here's her new version:


> Once at a lunch table, a colleague shared that her sister, a boutique shop assistant here in Hong Kong, was complained by some customers from Mainland China about not being able to speak Mandarin (Putonghua). I frowned a little and thought: what about if those shoppers are shopping in Los Angeles or Tokyo where the shop assistants may only speak American English or Japanese only? Why such a tension among languages (dialects) even inside one country?
> 
> In China, people living in Guangdong and Fujian provinces have a habit to teach their children to first learn the local dialects Cantonese and Hokkien and then the official language Mandarin (Putonghua), which is mostly taught in school. (The third? Now in general, it's English.) Does that happen in yours? Is there a similar situation in your country of where regional language speakers do not (or do not want) to speak the standard, how did it arise and what do you think a solution might be?
> 
> Many should have read Alphonse Daudet's "La Derniere Classe" (The Last Lesson), a story take place in Alsace-Lorraine (Elsaß-Lothringen) where the Germans banned the use of French in school after winning a war against France in mid-19th C. The tension between the French language and the German one here was a political one, which is rather typical throughout history. Today, can we take Greek and Turkish on Cyprus as an example? Besides political reasons, what other possible causes may lead to linguistic tension? Nationalism? Culture? Economic? Any others?


----------



## beakman

Hello!
I'd like to give you an example of some tension caused by language differences- a short story, true-to-life, something which happened to a friend of mine years ago.

This friend of mine moved to Cataluña with his family. (He is Andalusian from Seville). Well, his son began to go to Secondary school there. The parents were amused,shocked and rather annoyed by the fact that all subjects at school were taught only in Catalan (Spanish literature inclusive - imagine, speaking about Quijote and Lope in Catalán; the teachers must speak Catalán, it is required). Obviously,it wasn't very pleasant either to the parents, or their son. And they couldn't do nothing to change status quo.

Why Catalanians do enjoy their constitutional right to speak and to teach their language whilst other people from other parts of Spain and who are living in their territory (which is whithin the territory of Spain) can't have the same right? Why should they speak about Cervantes in Catalan, isn't it more logical to speak about him in the language the greatest writer of all the times mastered, at least during short lessons of literature? Why there is disproportional attention to Catalan and total indifference towards Castellano at school in Cataluña? (And Spanish language- there weren't such a subject, they only were taught the rules of Catalan).-_questions my friends had._

Well, the lad is all right so far. He grew into a man and now happily speaks both Catalan and Castellano, thanks to his father, his familia in Seville who have always spoken to him Castellano, only he writes better in Catalán than in Spanish, so what? Of course, it doesn't matter. He says he is lucky to speak Catalán -the same reason: more opportunites to get a decent job. May be, he also will be a teacher (for this purpose the Catalán language will be certainly a plus) and carry on the tradition to teach Spanish literature in Catalan, why not?

Regards.


----------



## natasha2000

beakman said:


> Hello!
> 
> Why Catalanians do enjoy their constitutional right to speak and to teach their language whilst other people from other parts of Spain and who* are living in their territory* (which is whithin the territory of Spain) can't have the same right?
> You gave yourself the answer.
> 
> Why should they speak about Cervantes in Catalan, isn't it more logical to speak about him in the language the greatest writer of all the times mastered, at least during short lessons of literature?
> I spoke in my country about Ceervantes in my language, and this did not prevent me from seeing the beuty in it.
> 
> Why there is disproportional attention to Catalan and total indifference towards Castellano at school in Cataluña? (And Spanish language- there weren't such a subject, they only were taught the rules of Catalan).-_questions my friends had._
> This is not true. It is not DISPROPORTIONAL.  It is proportional, according to the territory you are.
> 
> Well, the lad is all right so far. He grew into a man and now happily speaks both Catalan and Castellano, thanks to his father, his familia in Seville who have always spoken to him Castellano, only he writes better in Catalán than in Spanish, so what? Of course, it doesn't matter. He says he is lucky to speak Catalán -the same reason: more opportunites to get a decent job.
> So imagine that he had only Castilian i school. Wouldn't it prevent from having more opportunities now when he is a grown up man, considering he was raised and now living in Catalonia?
> 
> May be, he also will be a teacher (for this purpose the Catalán language will be certainly a plus) and carry on the tradition to teach Spanish literature in Catalan, why not?
> He cannot do this, even if he wanted.
> Regards.


 
I think this kind of stories on about some illeged "injustice and tension" in Catalonia is produced mainly by people who don't live in Catalonia, and not by Catalans. They simply cannot understand that in CATALONIA the language is CATALAN, too, and not only Spanish, and that in faxct, CATALAN IS the language of Catalonia, and Spanish is the language of Spain, and that Catalan people HAVE right to use their own language on their territory and they use it. In schools, in administration, in shops. Just as French people do with French language. Oh, yes, they also have the obligation to KNOW Spanish, and they do know it. They DO speak it, and most of them speak it excellent.

Personally, I do not see any problem in it. The problem is made by people who find themselves ofended by something that is completely normal in other countries - usage of the language of that particular country. 
Maybe I do not understand this because I was used to this model in my ex-country. Yugoslavia had six republics of which two had their own languages - Slovenia and Macedonia. They had their univeristies, administration, schools, media, everything in their own language, and you could not simply survive there if you didn't speak their language. They also had THE OBLIGATION (according to the constitution) to speak serbo-croat, so they had it at school, just as a nother subject. They all could speak it more or less, in case that someone as a tourist came to their country, so they could communciate. But if someone wanted to live there and work, it was the most normal thing that he learnt Slovenian or Macedonian and their children went to school in Macedonian or Slovenian. And nobody was even thinking to get offended because of that, or ask particular classes for their children in serbo-croat. This is my logic. Maybe this is why I am so wrong.

Unfortunatelly, I have a bad feeling that this thread will continue in the same manner as it was before Shu Fen gave more profound explanation of her question.


----------



## Shu_Fen

(Reading the first line of beakman's message... shaking my head, a bitter smile on my face:  why did I want to rephrase and re-focus my thread?  Just wanted to stop the verbal fight between Catalan and Castilian... God, please don't start again...  {{{{{{{{{*zebedee* }}}}}}}}}}}}, what should we do this time?)


----------



## Shu_Fen

(How come natasha2000 acted faster than myself to stop the ceasefire.... God!)  Shaking head... Eyes towards God...


----------



## Shu_Fen

(Oh, I have diverted and diverged the focus from Spain to the world... please share the situations of somewhere else...  The Spanish civil war stopped in 1939 and in 1975 Spain restored its kingship [Juan Carlos] in 1975.  I don't like war, neither real nor virtual....)  Moderator, help!


----------



## natasha2000

Shu_Fen said:


> (Oh, I have diverted and diverged the focus from Spain to the world... please share the situations of somewhere else... The Spanish civil war stopped in 1939 and in 1975 Spain restored its kingship [Juan Carlos] in 1975. I don't like war, neither real nor virtual....) Moderator, help!


 
Well, Shu Fen, you don't like war but you ask something that inevitably brings war and conflicts into our discussion. The word tension is connected more with conflicts than to peace and flowers. It is a very serious and rather depressing subject.

I will tell you the story of a linguistic tension among people of my ex-country, Yugoslavia, and if this story was told by one Croat or Bosnian, we wouldn't even be able to agree on how many languages we are talking about. I would say to you that we are talking about one language, with its peculiarities of each region where is spoken, and Croat would say that there are two languages, and a Bosnian would say there are three languages.
My point of view is that this language we all share, and that weas once called serbo-croatian, and now is lacking of a generla name, but takes the name of the region where is spoken, is one language and its differences can be compared with differences of Spanish in Spain and other American Spanish-speaking countries, or English in Britain, USA or Australia. I have tried so hard to see them as three different languages, but I couldn't. We had a very long and tense discussion in another thread about it, and the thread was closed varous times due to some very offensive posters from all three sides. At the end, I think that all this is only a poltical issue, which does not have anything to do with linguistics. Having recently independized, those countries need their own language in their search for their national identity, and I personally really don't mind. If they want to call their language Croatian or Bosnian, go ahead. It is a really stupid thing to fight about. We should look for some good things in our differences, and try to learn from each other. And send to hell all politicians, never brought anything good.


----------



## ireney

> Many should have read Alphonse Daudet's "La Derniere Classe" (The Last Lesson), a story take place in Alsace-Lorraine (Elsaß-Lothringen) where the Germans banned the use of French in school after winning a war against France in mid-19th C. The tension between the French language and the German one here was a political one, which is rather typical throughout history.Today, can we take Greek and Turkish on Cyprus as an example? Besides political reasons, what other possible causes may lead to linguistic tension? Nationalism? Culture? Economic? Any others?




I wrote a post before saying that there is no such tension in Cyprus. There's a general tension, true, but not focused in language in any way. 
Is this something in particular you had in mind when you referred to Cyprus? Can you elaborate on the matter a bit more?

Lastly, if you don't want tension here you might want to rethink talking about Cyprus. It is very difficult to refer to hmmmm the north part of Cyprus using a term acceptable by both sides, and I bet any post referring to the past is going to start a fight!!


----------



## natasha2000

ireney said:


> Besides political reasons, what other possible causes may lead to linguistic tension? Nationalism? Culture? Economic? Any others?


 
I think this may become a fructiful subject that includes linguistic tensions in certain territories. Just naming and describing varous conflicts in the world, will only bring more conflicts here, and this is something we certainly do not want. What does liberty or prohibition or even just reproach by the other in using your mother tongue represent for one nation? For you all?


----------



## beakman

Hello!
Just to clarify, Shu Fen, I didn't mean to revive any tention among foreros who take part in this thread. Only I wanted to express other viewpoint, this is OK, isn't it? I guess we admit that we can see the same object differently, it depends on what we have on the spot, from where we look at it, and if our vision covers more or less- I don't try to make everybody agree with me, as I also a human being and may be wrong and possess neither forward-looking vision nor, I hope, tunnel vision. (For instance, S. Esenin, great Russian poet, once said: "You can't see the face when you are too close to it. Great things are visible from the distance..." I guess we are open-minded and can understand and respect differences in opinions whithout unnecessary tension. And then everyone can draw his/ her conclusions and lump all parts together. (Fortunately, I respect Natasha's viewpoint but, idem, I can't agree whith it because I consider it erroneous). 



natasha2000 said:


> I think this kind of stories on about some illeged "injustice and tension" in Catalonia is produced mainly by people who don't live in Catalonia, and not by Catalans.
> First, this is not illegal, that is the point! This is completely legal in Catalonia.
> 
> Second, I wouldn't put injustice and tension into quotation marks. From my humble viewpoint, teaching only in Catalan and aspirants to _teachers that can gain access to Catalan schools only if they meet "minimum" requirement of speaking the language of Catala_n is about human rights abuse- shouldn't it be vice versa, i.e., Spanish as a minimun requirement? - (I repeat it is still part of Spain).
> 
> Who are Catalans? They are part of Spain. All students of Spain are taught Spanish at school. Catalans teach the students Spanish at school.- (I think it will be logical. Careful! I haven't mention nothing about they shouldn't teach their children Catalan! It is quite apart from what I try to say...)
> 
> They simply cannot understand that in CATALONIA the language is CATALAN, too, and not only Spanish, and that in faxct, CATALAN IS the language of Catalonia, and Spanish is the language of Spain, and that Catalan people HAVE right to use their own language on their territory and they use it. In schools, in administration, in shops. Just as French people do with French language. Oh, yes, they also have the obligation to KNOW Spanish, and they do know it. They DO speak it, and most of them speak it excellent.- Nothing to do with France. French language is a language of French nation. Spanish language is a language of Spanish nation. I don't object they speak Catalan in shops, administration, wherever they want..also at school, this is not a question...one thing they shouldn't do is to treat Spanish at school as it was some foreign language as it is a part of this nation.
> 
> Unfortunatelly, I have a bad feeling that this thread will continue in the same manner as it was before Shu Fen gave more profound explanation of her question.


- It won't continue in the same manner if you learn to listen to other people's opinions without getting nervous, I mean, quietly, calmly.

Regards.


----------



## natasha2000

beakman said:


> Hello!
> Just to clarify, Shu Fen, I didn't mean to revive any tention among foreros who take part in this thread. Only I wanted to express other viewpoint, this is OK, isn't it? I guess we admit that we can see the same object differently, it depends on what we have on the spot, from where we look at it, and if our vision covers more or less- I don't try to make everybody agree with me, as I also a human being and may be wrong and possess neither forward-looking vision nor, I hope, tunnel vision. (For instance, S. Esenin, great Russian poet, once said: "You can't see the face when you are too close to it. Great things are visible from the distance..." I guess we are open-minded and can understand and respect differences in opinions whithout unnecessary tension. And then everyone can draw his/ her conclusions and lump all parts together. (Fortunately, I respect Natasha's viewpoint but, idem, I can't agree whith it because I consider it erroneous).
> 
> - It won't continue in the same manner if you learn to listen to other people's opinions without getting nervous, I mean, quietly, calmly.
> 
> Regards.


 
I am saying to you this very camly, I assure you. I have heard those arguments many times before, and´I don't find them convincing. I guess that it is because I consider Catalans first Catalans and then Spanish, because they are Spanish by citizenship, but not by blood. When I say blood, I do not literally mean this red thing that we all have in our veins, but I mean, their own history, their own language and their own culture. And they are in their own land that was theirs long before it became ALSO Spanish. 
According to your logic (an many others, I know), then freedom and rights that Slovenians and Macedonians had in ex-Yugoslavia were exagerrated.
They were Yugoslavs, all of them, but first they were Slovenians and Macedonians, just as I was Serbian and then Yugoslav.

I am very sorry, but I really cannot give you right. I just simply do not think as you do. 
All of this is said VERY CALMLY, so don't worry, I won't get another heart attack.


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## ireney

Just a note:

a) I just quoted what natasha2000 has quoted me saying in her post #60

b) another "good" fight we can start is about calling "Macedonians" (referring to the citizens of F.Y.R.O.M.) as Macedonians


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## don maico

A Catalan is a Catalan just as Welshman is a Welshman and a Scot a Scot. The latter two whilst undeniably proud of their ethnicity are also undeniably British . I wonder if Catalans can proudly express themselves as Spaniards( as opposed to Castilians that is)?


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## beakman

natasha2000 said:


> I am saying to you this very camly, I assure you. I have heard those arguments many times before, and´I don't find them convincing. I guess that it is because I consider Catalans first Catalans and then Spanish, because they are Spanish by citizenship, but not by blood. When I say blood, I do not literally mean this red thing that we all have in our veins, but I mean, their own history, their own language and their own culture. And they are in their own land that was theirs long before it became ALSO Spanish.
> According to your logic (an many others, I know), then freedom and rights that Slovenians and Macedonians had in ex-Yugoslavia were exagerrated.
> They were Yugoslavs, all of them, but first they were Slovenians and Macedonians, just as I was Serbian and then Yugoslav.
> 
> I am very sorry, but I really cannot give you right. I just simply do not think as you do.
> All of this is said VERY CALMLY, so don't worry, I won't get another heart attack.


 
OK, Natasha!

I din't want you to change your mind.

Only, just to add the last thing to your comment about blood and history of Catalonia. I think that the Catalan history has always gone in hand with the history of Spain. Some Catalans don't like to recognize it. (Please, read the article on Catalonia in Wikipedia). And "their own land" is also the land of many-many people whose ancestors were from other parts of Spain and didn't speak Catalan at all, why they do forget that? (It is a rhetorical question).

Quite apart of that, it doesn't matter that we can't have the same viewpoint on this topic! I do hope we will find common ground in some other discussion one day. 

P.S.: Obviously, I can't judge about the rights that Slovenians and Macedonians had in ex-Yugoslavia. Well, I only can share with you my own experience. I was born in Russia, my parents are Russian/ Bielorrussian/ Polish cross. When I was 14 my family moved from Russia to Bielorrussia. Nobody at school has made me speak Bielorrusian nor study Russian literature in Bielorrussian. We had parallel subjects: Russian language and Bielorussian language; Russian literature and Bielorussian literature. Moreover, Bielorussian subjects were optional for me. I understand that it was another time, another country (former USSR), other particular incomparable conditions...(besides, there are a lot of people who will say that Bielorussian language was always oppressed by Russian language, and so on...) Nowadays, as far as I know, things haven't changed much. In Belarus (as its official name now) they have in parallel both Russian and Bielorussian, both languages are official and both are taught equally at school. There was an attempt to abolish Russian. They declared only Bielorussian as official. I did remember that year. When after a short period of time they realised that it didn't work (an example, my mother as a lawyer had to write her speeches in a horrible Bielorussian- she had never had it at school in Nizhni Novgorod (Russia), where she grew up, and it was a real fun for me- but not for her- to listen to her in Bielorussian), they made both languages equal.

Best regards!


----------



## natasha2000

> I think this kind of stories on about some illeged  alleged "injustice and tension" in Catalonia is produced mainly by people who don't live in Catalonia, and not by Catalans.
> First, this is not illegal, that is the point! This is completely legal in Catalonia.


 
I did not say illigal but *alleged*. Sorry, I wrote it wrong, I should have noticed my spelling error.

You're right. Our points of view are based on our former countries experience. While you think that is is completely ok to force the usage of a state language and opress the local language, I don't. It is just something that I grew up with, and I simply cannot accept it as ok. Fortunately, Spain of today in not the USSR of yesterday so, democracy here does work. If Catalan gouvernment were doing something unconstitutional or against law, do you really think that Spainsh gouverment would permit it? I don't. 
Therefore, just because it is uncomfortable for non Catalan speaking Spaniards and others, that does not mean Catalan should be banned from Catalonia. 
I don't speak Catalan. I know that if I spoke it, I would have more opportunities here. But I don't think that some kind of injustice has been done to me as a Spanish only speaker, I just see the things how they are. And the things are as they are, even though we might not like it.  If I hadn't been so lazy, I would have learnt Catalan a long time ago. So, I cannot seek justifications for my laziness in some so-called Catalan nationalism, because there isn't any. It's just my laziness. Mine or anyone else's who comes to live in Catalonia and refuses to learn Catalan. Your decision always brings a good thing and a bad thing. Goods thing is that it is your decision, nobody made up your mind for you. And bad one is that you, too, will suffer all consequences of your decision. Because it was yours and nobody else's.

About Greece and Macedonia...
I would really like to hear arguments about this issue. I know something, but not enough to have my own opinion. All argumented contributions are welcome.


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## ireney

natasha this is NOT the right thread for discussing the "Macedonian question" that's for sure.

I would rather we didn't open such a thread since it is bound to be one where tempers will possitively paint the sky red but that's just my preference


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## natasha2000

ireney said:


> natasha this is NOT the right thread for discussing the "Macedonian question" that's for sure.
> 
> I would rather we didn't open such a thread since it is bound to be one where tempers will possitively paint the sky red but that's just my preference


 
Ah, no? Ok. You know, I kind agree with you. As a mattrer of fact, I thought the same from the beginning. I was just trying to see if it is possible to have some civilized conversaton on ANOTER topic but not Catalan and Spanish.
As a matter of fact, I would say that Macedonians have rather territorial and terminological than linguistic conflict with Greeks. The linguistic one is with Bulgarians. Many of them consider there is no Macedonian language, and that what is spoken in Macedonia is only a variant of Bulgarian.


----------



## ireney

natasha you are right (although the citizens of FYROM claim that the ancient Macedonian was not Greek and their language is the only one that has incorporated that language into the one they speak today). That's why I said we'd better not talk about it.

At one point, the Balkan Wars are going to be mentioned and the discussion will become a multinational bruhaha if that happens!

As it is I am still waiting for more information - clarification by Shu Fen on the matter of Cyprus which is yet another "handle with care" one.


----------



## Outsider

beakman said:


> I think that the Catalan history has always gone in hand with the history of Spain.


You are mistaken. 
And, anyway, so what? Having a common history with your neighbours does not mean you have to speak their language. Or do you expect the English to switch to speaking French because England's history has always "gone hand in hand" with France's history?



don maico said:


> A Catalan is a Catalan just as Welshman is a Welshman and a Scot a Scot. The latter two whilst undeniably proud of their ethnicity are also undeniably British . I wonder if Catalans can proudly express themselves as Spaniards( as opposed to Castilians that is)?


What makes you think Catalans are less capable of "proudly expressing themselves as Spaniards" than the Welsh and the Scots are of expressing themselves as Brits*? That fact that _they_ aren't letting their regional language wither and die?

*Speaking of which, here's an interesting, and ironic, previous discussion.


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:


> You are mistaken. .



No. You are. If you want to open a debate I am ready, but a link to the story of the Aragonese Crown (in which Catalonia is only a part and that, as a whole, is a part of current Spain, by the way) is neither honest nor useful. Quite unproper of you.



Outsider said:


> And, anyway, so what? Having a common history with your neighbours does not mean you have to speak their language. Or do you expect the English to switch to speaking French because England's history has always "gone hand in hand" with France's history?



No. And nobody is asking Catalan-speakers to abandon Catalan. We are asking Catalan Gov. not to ask Spanish-speaking to abandon Spanish.


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## Outsider

Fernando said:


> No. You are. If you want to open a debate I am ready, but a link to the story of the Aragonese Crown (in which Catalonia is only a part and that, as a whole, is a part of current Spain, by the way) is neither honest nor useful. Quite unproper of you.


Please explain which objections you have to my counterargument.



Fernando said:


> And nobody is asking Catalan-speakers to abandon Catalan. We are asking Catalan Gov. not to ask Spanish-speaking to abandon Spanish.


You are asking the Catalan government to stop doing something it has never done?


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## Fernando

This is chatting.

Everyone nationalist narrow-minded discussion enter into the forum we finish discussing nosense.

My views on the topic have been exposed in other threads. Uninterested in the discussion unless someone is interested in turning over and over the same point.


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## ireney

Lesson of the day: No matter what the original poster does the "Catalan issue" will be discussed 

I don't mind really because I enjoy hearing arguments and counter-arguments but I thought I'd mention it (since the discussion on Catalan and Castillian was one of the main reasons -if not the main reason really- that Shu Fen was asked to rephrase his opening post)


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## Outsider

Fernando said:


> First, tell me ONE moment in Catalonian History not related to other Spanish territory.


Up until the union of the crown of Aragon with the crown of Castile, the history of the former was quite analogous to the history of Portugal: an independent Iberian country, certainly a neighbour of Castile, but not "always hand in hand" with it, in any way.



Fernando said:


> I am asking the Catalan Gov. of stop doing what is actually doing.
> 
> That is nosense.


This was discussed to death in another thread. I remain unconvinced that Spanish is being suppressed in Catalonia, sorry.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> Up until the union of the crown of Aragon with the crown of Castile, the history of the former was quite analogous to the history of Portugal: an independent Iberian country, certainly a neighbour of Castile, but not "always hand in hand" with it, in any way.



A pity 500 years have passed since then. And not, Catalonia was by no means an independent country. Please, re-read your link.

And no, we are not saying it was included in Castille (now or then). We are talking about Spain.



Outsider said:


> This was discussed to death in another thread. I remain unconvinced that Spanish is being suppressed in Catalonia, sorry.



I have edited my previous post. I am uninterested in the topic, unless someone happens to post plain mistakes.

Please, open a new thread in any POLITICAL forum you want.


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## zebedee

I'm sorry, guys, I'm closing this thread. I know Shu Fen will understand why, after the PMs she's sent me. 

We're beating the same dead horses again and nothing new is being said.


As Fernando has said: 


			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Please, open a new thread in any POLITICAL forum you want.


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