# I have been learning to play violin



## rino delbello

Hi all, from a grammatical point of view, I wonder what the meaning of the verb in the sentence below is :

I have been learning to play violin. Would like to be the first person to hear me play?

More specifically, I wonder which of the following three meanings is correct :

1) In this context it has the same meaning as ' I have learnt to play violin ' (which is the case of the present perfect referring to an action completed without specifying the time)

2) It is a continuing action.

3) It is an action which has just finished focusing on the result.

I think only the third is correct because he/she says '' Would like to be the first to hear me play? ''


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## heypresto

It's a continuous action. The speaker is still currently learning. (Even a professional player would probably not think he or she has finished learning.)

Note we would probably say 'I have been learning to play *the *violin.' and we would definitely say  Would *you* like to be the first person to hear me play?


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## Edinburgher

"I have been learning to play the violin" focuses on what I have been spending my time on recently.
"I have learnt to play the violin" focuses on the effect, and also implies that the learning process is complete.


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## rino delbello

Yes, thanks for your answers but there is also a grammar rule that says that the present perfect continuous can also refers to an action completed focusing on a result. What do you think about it? Why in this context it implies a continuing action and not one  just finished? To both of you, is the answer ' also a  professional player would probably not think he or she has finished learning ' the best?


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## london calling

heypresto said:


> It's a continuous action. The speaker is still currently learning. (Even a professional player would probably not think he or she has finished learning.)
> 
> Note we would probably say 'I have been learning to play *the *violin.' and we would definitely say  Would *you* like to be the first person to hear me play?


I learned to play violin  at school. Don't ask me why I say it that way, but I do. I agree of course that this is a continuous action.

My first tune was 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star'. The cat packed his bags, ready to leave unless I gave it up.). 



rino delbello said:


> Yes, thanks for your answers but there is also a grammar rule that says that the present perfect continuous can also refers to an action completed focusing on a result. What do you think about it? Why in this context it implies a continuing action and not one  just finished?


Can you provide a source for this rule? As far as I am concerned the ppc implies an action which began in the past and continues in the present, not a completed action.


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## Edinburgher

rino delbello said:


> Why in this context it implies a continuing action and not one just finished?


Because the context is about learning to play the violin, which (as HP hinted in #2) is a process than can never be completed.  It's not as simple as memorizing a few multiplication tables, which any child can do in an afternoon, and without annoying the cat.


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## rino delbello

Ok, thanks for clarifying Edinburgher, but there is also another grammar rule that can be applied here and I would really like you to read it as London Calling said. London Calling do you know if I can quote here the book with the grammar rule I mean? I can't remember if it is allowed here. At any rate, you should know what the grammar rule is and what I am referring to...


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## london calling

Yes, please do name and quote the rule the book refers to. It would be interesting to see in which particular context this rule can be applied.


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## london calling

rino delbello said:


> OK, here is the reference ' Inside Grammar by Michael Vince with Grazia Cerulli ' ,  please see on page 28, exercise n.1 : the phrase Were the children quiet can only match that saying Yes, Paula's been looking after them in the garden '. Please also check the illustrations on page 29 that refer to both a continuing action or another to explain a result.


We can't check anything: you haven't provided the link.


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## rino delbello

It is printed material. I am going to find a weblink with the rule.


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## london calling

In that case you need to copy the relevant parts out and write them in your post: we can't check anything if we don't have the book or a link to it.

Edit. In any case "Were the children quiet?""Yes, Paula's been looking after them in the garden" is, in my opinion, incorrect. It should be:

*"Were* the children quiet?"
"Yes, Paula's been Paula *was looking* after them in the garden".

Or:

"*Are* the children quiet?"
"Yes, *Paula's been looking* after them in the garden".


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## rino delbello

Please check at the bottom of the page where it says Use of Present Perfect Progressive, third point.

Here is the link Present Perfect Progressive (Present Perfect Continuous)

Can't wait for all your feedbacks


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## Hermione Golightly

I don't know why it has to be still going on. It depends on context which we don't have. Only the speaker knows if he has stopped or not. If he has stopped it would have to be recent. 
We might wonder why he doesn't say I'm learning to play the violin if he still is.
Present perfect usage guidance demands clear detailed context and even then constant practice and exposure to use.
BrE generally uses the article with playing an instrument:
play the guitar, the piano, the drums.


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## rino delbello

OK, thanks Hermione Golightly for clarifying . I think it depends on the context.


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## london calling

rino delbello said:


> Please check at the bottom of the page where it says Use of Present Perfect Progressive, third point.
> 
> Here is the link Present Perfect Progressive (Present Perfect Continuous)
> 
> Can't wait for all your feedbacks


None of the contributors are native speakers of English. Take what they say and how they say it with a pinch of salt. I quote, for example:

*Use of Present Perfect Progressive*

puts emphasis on the duration or course of an action (not the result)
Example: She _has been writing_ for two hours.


action that recently stopped or is still going on
Example: I _have been living_ here since 2001.


finished action that influenced the present
Example: I _have been working_ all afternoon.

The English is a little odd and I do not agree that the ppc can be used to describe an action *which has recently been completed* or is still going on, as they say here. _I have been living here since 2001_ means that the person moved 'there' at some time in the past and is still living 'there': the activity has not 'recently been completed'. The same goes  'I have been working all afternoon': without further context** this means s/he started work at say 12:30 pm. It is now 5:30 pm. The person began working earlier in the afternoon and is still working now, in the late afternoon. Again we are not talking about completed/finished actions. As for its influencing the present do they mean _I_ _have been working all afternoon and now I have a headache?_

** For example. 'I've been working all afternoon. I've had enough for today. Time to go to the gym'. Note however that the ppc still does not refer to a completed action.


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## rino delbello

OK, what about this sentence?

Do not enter the room. We have been decorating.
Here the action has just finished and is based on present relevance. What do you think about it?


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## Myridon

rino delbello said:


> OK, what about this sentence?
> 
> Do not enter the room. We have been decorating.
> Here the action has just finished and is based on present relevance. What do you think about it?


You are still decorating.  
Your first sentence doesn't help your position. Why can't I enter the room if you are finished?


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## london calling

rino delbello said:


> OK, what about this sentence?
> 
> Do not enter the room. We have been decorating.
> Here the action has just finished and is based on present relevance. What do you think about it?


As Myridon says, you are still decorating. Why would you tell someone not to enter the room if you had already finished? It isn't logical.


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## sound shift

london calling said:


> As Myridon says, you are still decorating. Why would you tell someone not to enter the room if you had already finished? It isn't logical.


No, it's not really logical. If you had just finished painting the room, a simple "Wet Paint" sign would do. If glue was still setting, "Keep Off" would be enough, etc.


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## rino delbello

No, I have finished decorating. This is why you can't enter the room. In fact, the floor is dirty...
Therefore, present relevance with present perfect continuous.

Is there anyone who agrees with me? The grammar rule is mentioned in many websites and books. Good Heavens..

Ok, provided that there is this 'wet paint' that you are saying, would you use present perfect or present perfect continuous?


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## london calling

rino delbello said:


> No, I have finished decorating. This why you can't enter the room. In fact, the floor is dirty...
> Therefore, present relevance with present perfect continuous.
> 
> Is there anyone who agrees with me? The grammar rule is mentioned in many websites and books. Good Heavens..


You have not finished decorating. If you had finished decorating you would have said "We have just finished decorating".


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## rino delbello

London Calling, again and again, there are so many websites and books which explain the rule....trust me. What about my sentence saying provided that..... What do you think about it?


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## london calling

rino delbello said:


> London Calling, again and again, there are so many websites and books which explain the rule....trust me


Like the one you provided a link to? None of the contributors were native speakers. So far none of the sentences/evidence provided has convinced any  of us.

Please provide a link to a reputable website / book (whose authors/contributors are native English speakers) which sustains the viability of this 'rule' and we'll talk about it.


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## sound shift

rino delbello said:


> No, I have finished decorating. This is why you can't enter the room. In fact, the floor is dirty...
> Therefore, present relevance with present perfect continuous.
> 
> Is there anyone who agrees with me? The grammar rule is mentioned in many websites and books. Good Heavens..


The fact that the floor is dirty is crucial information that you didn't provide earlier. If the floor is dirty, there's every reason to say "Do not enter the room" - but that has nothing to do with the present perfect.


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## rino delbello

I can provide you with the quote from the English natives' book only if I ask them for the authorization. I will see about but can't assure you that I will be given their consent


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## rino delbello

OK, so sound shift, do you think that present perfect continuous or present perfect should be used after ' Do not enter the room ' ?


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## sound shift

rino delbello said:


> OK, so sound shift, do you think that present perfect continuous could be used then?


Well, you could say "We've been decorating the room and the floor is still dirty, so please do not enter the room."


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## rino delbello

OK, we have found the solution, you agree with me, this is what I meant , and this is the asnwer that you were looking for London Calling, thank you very much all of you! Sound shift, does your sentence mean that the action is completed, doesn't it? London Calling is it right to say this is the answer that you were looking for or that you had been looking for?


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## Myridon

rino delbello said:


> No, I have finished decorating. This is why you can't enter the room. In fact, the floor is dirty...


You purposely made the floor dirty as a decorative choice.  No, you're not finished until it's clean.


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## rino delbello

For Myridon , no, The floor is dirty as a result of some drops of varnish while decorating... I haven't done it on purpose at all. The action is completed.


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## sound shift

rino delbello said:


> OK, we have found the solution, you agree with me, this is what I meant , and this is the asnwer that you were looking for London Calling, thank you very much all of you! Sound shift, does your sentence mean that the action is completed, doesn't it?


That's a philosophical matter. You could say (1) that you've finished decorating but haven't finished clearing up, or (2) you could regard the job as indivisible, and say that you haven't finished.


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## Myridon

rino delbello said:


> For Myridon , no, The floor is dirty as a result of some drops of varnish while decorating... I haven't done it on purpose at all. The action is completed.


The room is un-decorous due to being dirty.  Who is supposed to clean up your mess? Your mother?


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## london calling

sound shift said:


> That's a philosophical matter. You could say (1) that you've finished decorating but haven't finished clearing up, or (2) you could regard the job as indivisible, and say that you haven't finished.


I see it as (2). If the room's still a mess as far as I'm concerned the job isn't finished.


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## RedwoodGrove

london calling said:


> For example. 'I've been working all afternoon. I've had enough for today. Time to go to the gym'. Note however that the ppc still does not refer to a completed action.


Sitting down to dinner: _I've been working non-stop all day. I'm hungry._

Completed action. Sounds all right to me.


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## london calling

RedwoodGrove said:


> Sitting down to dinner: _I've been working non-stop all day. I'm hungry._
> 
> Completed action. Sounds all right to me.


Ok.


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## rino delbello

Thank you Redwoodgrove, do you agree with my choice of action completed referring to the sentence saying we have been decorating?

London Calling, Redwoodgrove's sentence has the same meaning as mine, that is to say it explains a result with present relevance, you know...


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## RedwoodGrove

rino delbello said:


> Do not enter the room. We have been decorating.


It's all a matter of perception, and I basically agree with London calling's assessment. People don't consciously think, "Is there a continuing influence and effect or is the action completed?" Of course there are similar instinctive linguistic judgments in Italian and any language. It is only when you are forced to analyze the sense or feeling that you can determine why you said it.

In any case, I think it's ambiguous in your example but that doesn't really matter. Even in my example you could draw the conclusion that the day's work is still in effect _because_ the person is hungry. In your case, you are clearly saying the recent decoration is still having an effect because you don't want the person to enter the room.

Note that in AE "decorating" does not normally mean painting. it means hanging Christmas decorations, putting up new curtains, putting out flowers, changing the artwork, etc. A more extensive (re)decoration might include painting.


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## rino delbello

OK, but I am convinced that in my sentence and in the context of my sentence, we have been decorating and we have decorated have the same meaning. In fact, although it is dirty, the main activity (decorating) is finished because what remains to do is to clean only but cleaning is not specified in the sentence. I just wanted to say this. What do you think about it?

Please see this post present perfect continuous (this link is also for London Calling , please check especially where it says finished already......here the focus is on the result.


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## velisarius

_Do not enter the room. We have been painting._ - The painting may or may not be finished.
_Do not enter the room. We have painted (it)._ - The painting job is finished.

Are those the sentences you are talking about? I don't think there's any question that the meaning is not the same.


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## rino delbello

OK, velsarius, thanks, so you think that in ' we have been painting ' there is chance of a completed action, don't you?


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## velisarius

rino delbello said:


> OK, velsarius, thanks, so you think that in ' we have been painting ' there is chance of a completed action, don't you?



Yes, I do. Context is very important though:

I'm allergic to strong tobacco smells. Someone might warn me: 

"Don't go in that lift. *Someone's been smoking a cigar in there*." 

There's not the slightest suggestion that they are going to come back and finish smoking that cigar right down to the stub.


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## rino delbello

Ehehehe, OK, so do you agree with me that in my sentence ' I have been learning to play violin. Would like to be the first person to hear me play? ', the action expressed with the present perfect continuous is completed? Is ' someone's been smoking a cigar here ' a completed action?


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## velisarius

rino delbello said:


> I have been learning to play violin. Would like to be the first person to hear me play?



(I haven't read this thread from the beginning.)

_I've been learning to play the violin. Would you like to be the first person to hear me play? 
_
I'd assume that the speaker is still a learner, but we can't know whether he/she intends to continue learning. All it tells us is that the speaker has been taking some lessons or learning by himself and thinks he can play at least a bit.

If this person thought they'd learned all there is to know and had become an expert player, I'd expect them to say "I've learned to play the violin!" I an imagine a child saying that, after a few lessons, and not realising what a lot of practise it takes to become really proficient.

The progressive form tells me that the speaker recognises that the process of learning has not been completed. It doesn't tell us whether they mean to continue with it.


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## rino delbello

OK, so the action is continuing. Velisarius what about your sentence? Is the action completed or not? Does ' the speaker has been taking some lessons ' have the same meaning as ' the speaker is taking some lessons ' ?


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## RedwoodGrove

You may have to consider that no action truly has a beginning or an end, though sometimes we feel it does. 

Janie and I were seeing each other all through the 90's but now I never hear from her. Junie and I have been dating since last year but now no longer. We're getting married.


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## rino delbello

Best wishes


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## Phil-Olly

Can't resist climbing into this one!

Question: "What have you been doing this afternoon?"  Ask yourself whether the questioner is interested in whether or not the action is finished.

Answer: "I've been cleaning windows all afternoon."  Has the speaker finished cleaning the windows?  Does it matter?  He might have said, "I've spent all afternoon cleaning windows, and I'm going to be doing the same tomorrow."

The same applies to learning the violin or decorating the room.  How proficient the violinist is, or how dirty the floor of the room or wet the paint are nothing but red herrings!

The reason for the perfect tense is that the speaker is explaining his present status.

"I am totally knackered, because I have been doing ....." and all other considerations about whether or not the action is finished are totally irrelevant!


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## rino delbello

OK, if your sentence saying ' I am totally knackered because I have been doing...' finishes with the word ' waterskiing ', I am sure the action is finished. Do you agree on it?


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## Phil-Olly

Yes I agree, it's finished, but maybe only temporarily.  We shouldn't get hung up on whether it's finished for good.

Suppose you call me on the phone and I say, "I am totally knackered because I have been waterskiing."  The minute we terminate our conversation I may, or may not, continue waterskiing.

The point is that waterskiing is what I have been doing up to that point.

If we were talking about something that I was continuing to do, e.g. walking on a treadmill at the gym, I might say, even as I am speaking to you on the phone:

"I am totally knackered because I am walking on a treadmill" because the action is still going on.


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## rino delbello

OK, but in the sentence ' I am totally knackered because I am walking on a treadmil ' the action is still going on, while in ' I am totally knackered because I have been doing waterskiing ' it is a completed action. Is it correct?


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## Phil-Olly

Yes, that's correct.


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## rino delbello

Ok, so the sentence which refers to violin, etc..... can also express an action just completed. What do you think about it?


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## RedwoodGrove

You could say this with an implied completed action:

I have been learning to play this piece on the violin. Would like to be the first person to hear me play it?


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## rino delbello

OK, thanks a lot.


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## Phil-Olly

rino delbello said:


> Ok, so the sentence which refers to violin, etc..... can also express an action just completed. What do you think about it?



"I have been learning to play *the* violin. Would like to be the first person to hear me play?"

Yes, it's fine.  It tells me your status, i.e. what you have been doing lately.  Completed only in the sense that you are not doing it at this moment.

You could also say: "I am learning to play the violin.  Etc." because this would imply more strongly that your learning continues.


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## Edinburgher

You can't get a definitive ruling on whether "have been <verb-ing>" implies a completed action or not, because it depends on context.

I'm surprised at how many respondents have corrected your sentence by adding "the" before "violin" without also correcting "Would like" to "Would *you* like".


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## Phil-Olly

Kind of visual mental blank, I guess.

I find this business about a completed action very misleading.  If you ask me, "What have you been doing all day?"  I could say, "I have been washing the car, reading a book, cutting the grass, and practising the violin.  Now I am having a well-earned cup of tea."
The only thing that links all the actions in the first sentence is that I am doing none of them at the moment of my reply.  That's all.  Some of them are "completed" some of them are not.  But it doesn't matter a bean either way.
Am I wrong?


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## Edinburgher

Phil-Olly said:


> Am I wrong?


Absolutely not.


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## rino delbello

OK, I agree with you Phil-Olly, I have put the violin-related sentence because I wanted to give a meaning of completed action to it.

So, this is my final decision : The sentence can refer to both a continuing action or a completed one, it depends on the context.


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