# Urdu/Persian: دوم  سوم



## Qureshpor

*For "second" and "third" *دوم *and *سوم *(duvvum and sivvum) are used in Persian and Urdu. One also comes across* دویم *and *سویم *as well as *دوئم* and  *سوئم*. Are these forms just alternatives or are they older varities of these words? How would you transliterate them? *


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## BP.

Ah N. Q. sahib, I just thought of this while opening the forum, and here you are with the thread. Do you read minds?

All I can tell you is that we mostly use the first and third forms you described in Urdu. My own question is about the transliteration of دوئم: I too am not sure whether there's actually a zeer or a zabar after the Hamzah, as you know in Urdu we're used to rounding both off to nearly the same thing.

Let's wait on the heavyweights.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Ah N. Q. sahib, I just thought of this while opening the forum, and here you are with the thread. Do you read minds?
> 
> *"parde meN rahne doooo, pardah nah uThaa'o!". Actually, this is something I've been meaning to ask someone for a long time. Even looooong before I knew anything about this particular forum.*
> 
> All I can tell you is that we mostly use the first and third forms you described in Urdu. My own question is about the transliteration of دوئم: I too am not sure whether there's actually a zeer or a zabar after the Hamzah, as you know in Urdu we're used to rounding both off to nearly the same thing.
> 
> *I have seen "soyam" in a dictionary but not "doyam".
> 
> The others I have heard as "do'em" and "so'em" ('em rhyming with the English word "aim").
> *
> Let's wait on the heavyweights.
> 
> *Surely, you don't regard yourself as a "feather weight"! It might not be PC to refer to our forum friends as "heavy weights". You know people are very sensitive about their figures!*


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## Qureshpor

*Faylasoof Sahib, you might have missed this thread. If you have, any views?*


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## eskandar

QURESHPOR said:


> *For "second" and "third" *دوم *and *سوم *(duvvum and sivvum) are used in Persian and Urdu. One also comes across* دویم *and *سویم *as well as *دوئم* and  *سوئم*. Are these forms just alternatives or are they older varities of these words? How would you transliterate them? *


At least as far as Persian is concerned, I have never seen the alternatives you propose, only دوم and سوم. If they exist, they must be Urdu innovations, not borrowings from Persian.


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Faylasoof Sahib, you might have missed this thread. If you have, any views?*



Sorry, QP SaHeb! I did miss this one!



eskandar said:


> At least as far as Persian is concerned, I have  never seen the alternatives you propose, only دوم and سوم. If they  exist, they must be Urdu innovations, not borrowings from  Persian.



Well as far as I know in Urdu "proper" too it is supposed to be  دوم and سوم , most of the time.

However I have come across  دویم _*duyum*_ / _*doyum*_ and سویم* suyum / soyum* and دوئم _*do'um*_ and  سوئم  _*so'um*_ but we don't use these. Besides, the latter two appear to be derivations / corruptions of _*doyum*_ and _*soyum*_. 

We always stick to the original / near original Persian forms دُوُّم _*duvvum*_ and سِوُّم _*sivvum*_ - but also as, sometimes, _*suvvum*_!

Having said all this, I found out that Steingass' Persian lexicon also has _*duyum*_!

Also, Platts presents both of these as _*duyum*_ and _*siiwum*_ - alternatives we don't use!


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> At least as far as Persian is concerned, I have never seen the alternatives you propose, only دوم and سوم. If they exist, they must be Urdu innovations, not borrowings from Persian.



*In my view, the alternatives are neither Urdu innovations nor corruptions of duvvum and sivvum. I think they are simply variants. Persian did not come into India directly from Iran. It could be that the variety of the language from Afghanistan and further north and west might have had these as the main forms. It would be interesting to see if poets of Rodaki's age and area used these forms or not.*


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## Qureshpor

eskandar said:


> At least as far as Persian is concerned, I have never seen the alternatives you propose, only دوم and سوم. If they exist, they must be Urdu innovations, not borrowings from Persian.



I have seen "siyyum" in a Classical Persian prose book.


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## fdb

The early New Persian forms are duwum and siyum (the first syllable is short in both cases). suwum is a later form, by analogy to duwum.


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## darush

dovvom and sevvom in New Persian of Iran. doyyom and seyyom are also correct but is not common today.


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## Phosphorus

Dovvom / doyyom and sevvom / seyyom (as for common Persian pronunciations) are only variants. Since these two Persian numbers, namely "do" ~ "two" and "se" ~ "three" are ended with sound, thus in order to add "-om" (somewhat equal to English "-th" for numbers) there needs to be a connecting element. Both "-w/v-" and "-y-" are apparently eligible for the very task, but in the Official Persian they have chosen "-v-" and it is held that the usage of "-y-" is wrong. I think it is because of the Middle Persian proper (Sassanid Persian), in which the cognates are "dowom" and "sewom*" respectively (however "sewom" I am afraid is not attested in archaeologically authentic documents, instead there is "sidigar" ~ compare to "dodigar"). Thus in the Official Persian they consider "dovom" and "sevom" to be correct. Also they, in the Persian Academy of Language and Literature, asseverate that there must not be "-vv-", but only "-v-", since the Middle Persian cognate also has one "-w-" and they believe this double "-v-" in conversational Persian is a result of the Arabic loanword for "first", namely "avval" (< Ar. "awwal")-in which there is "v" twice.


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## fdb

This is largely, but not entirely, correct. The attested forms in Middle Persian are:

“second”: didom, dudī, dudīg, dudīgar

“third”: sidīg, sidīgar, and also “3wm”, presumably to be read as seyom

The immediate ancestor of New Persian duwum is not actually attested in Middle Persian.


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## Phosphorus

According to my book of "A Concise Pahlavi Dictionary", by D. N. Mackenzie, "2wm" is attested, with a suggested pronunciation of "dowom"-by Mackenzie. But surprisingly therein is no indication to "3wm" or "seyom".


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## fdb

My error. MacKenzie does have entries both for dowom (2wm) and seyom (3wm), but the former in attested only in compounds ("twenty-second" and the like).


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## Phosphorus

Yes you are right, I noticed "3wm" / "seyom" too.


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## Qureshpor

From "Qaabuus Naamah"

*دویم* آنکہ ہرگز چنان نہ خندیدے کہ دندان وی پیدا آمدے،* سیم* آنکہ اگر در خشم بودے کسے را دشنام ندادے۔


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