# quinquennio ante quam Augustus excederet



## PowerOfChoice

"*quinquennio* ante quam Augustus *excederet*" (Suetonius, De Vita Caesarum, Divus Vespasianus, 2.)




Questions:

1) What does "excederet" mean exactly? Does it refer to Augustus' death necessarily, or does it refer to the time when Augustus surrendered or transferred something to another?

2) Suppose this action, "excederet", occurred on say May 17, 1958. What year is specified by "quinquennio ante quam," 1954 or 1953?


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## Anne345

Of course, that refers to the death of Augustus


Suetonius, De Vita Caesarum, 
Divus Augustus (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html)
 5  Natus est Augustus M.Â Tullio Cicerone C.Â Antonio conss. VIIII.Â Kal.Â Octob... 
 5  Augustus was born just before sunrise on the ninth day before the Kalends of Octobera in the consulship of Marcus Tullius Cicero and Gaius Antonius, 
*Marcus Tullius Cicero et Gaius Antonius : 63 before Christ *

100  Obiit in cubiculo eodem, quo pater Octavius, duobus Sextis, Pompeio et Appuleio, cons. XIIII.Â Kal. Septemb. hora diei nona, septuagesimo et sexto aetatis anno, diebus VÂ etÂ XXX minus.
He died in the same room as his father Octavius, in the consulship of two Sextuses, Pompeius and Appuleius, on the fourteenth day before the Kalends of September at the ninth hour, just thirty-five days before his seventy-sixth birthday. 

*Sextus Pompeius et Sextus Appuleius : 14 after Christ*

Divus Vespasianus
Vespasianus natus est in Sabinis1 ultra Reate vico modico, cui nomen est Falacrinae,2 XV. Kal. Decb. vesperi, Q.3 Sulpicio Camerino C. Poppaeo Sabino cons., quinquennio ante quam Augustus excederet; 
Vespasian was born in the Sabine country, in a small village beyond Reate, called Falacrina,b on the evening of the fifteenth day before the Kalends of December, in the consulate of Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus and Gaius Poppaeus Sabinus, five years before the death of Augustus. 

*Caius Poppaeus Sabinus and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus : 9 after Christ.*


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## judkinsc

"excederet" is the imperfect subjunctive, which is used for conditional statements as well as the imperfect tense of the subjunctive.

quinquennio ante quam Augustus excederet
"Five years before [the affair in which] Augustus died." It's in the subjunctive since Augustus hadn't died yet.


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## PowerOfChoice

judkinsc said:


> "excederet" is the imperfect subjunctive, which is used for conditional statements as well as the imperfect tense of the subjunctive.
> 
> quinquennio ante quam Augustus excederet
> "Five years before [the affair in which] Augustus died." It's in the subjunctive since Augustus hadn't died yet.


 

 

Thanks Judkinsc! Very interesting! 

But is death necessarily tied to every use of the word "excederet?" Suppose that "excederet" is pointing in this passage instead to the event when Tiberius was made the heir of Augustus, probably several years prior to Augustus' death. Is it inconsistent with the true meaning of the word "excederet" to apply it to the ceding of some powers from Augustus to Tiberius at such an occasion?

Also your "Five years before..." would imply that you would not use inclusive reckoning in this case, is that correct? Why would that be? Your answer to my question above would then be 1953, right? How does your answer relate to e.g. the following statements?:

"Timing of the quinquennial Neronia has puzzled historians. "Quinquennial" literally means "every five," but *in practice means every four*. Romans counted things inclusively. Romans had no zero- so between 1 and 5, there are 4 years. Additionally, being a Greek festival, a four-year cycle is consistent with customs." (Wikipedia)​
"*quinquennial games: *that is, games held *every four years*. (_Not_ every five; if this puzzles you, see the article Quinquennalia in Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, and my note there.)" (Bill Thayer, Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars, The Life of Augustus, footnote.)​


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## judkinsc

The meaning of "excedero, -ere" is closely linked to death. In a similar way "interficio" means "to kill" or "to die". If it had been "to cede/ to yield power" it would have been simply "cedo, cedere" and it would have taken an object and indirect object (i.e. "he ceded power to Tiberius (i.e. cessit imperium Tiberio). It would be a transitive verb, in other words, rather than intransitive as it is here. Many verbs in Latin can be either transitive or intransitive depending on how they are used.

Actually, I just translated "quinquennio" literally without considering the difference in the system of measurement. Just delete "zero" from your calculations: year 1 as the date it begins: year 1 to year 2 = first year, 2 to 3 = second year, 3 to 4 = third year, 4 to 5 = fourth year, and you have "fifth year" but only four by our measurement.
Whether you should use "four years" or "five years" in your translation depends upon why you are translating it. If you are translating for a broad audience that desires compliance with modern standards, then stick to four years. If you are translating for an exam, or literally, then I would stick to five years (and maybe note that it really means four, to make sure the instructor understands).


"2) Suppose this action, "excederet", occurred on say May 17, 1958. What year is specified by "quinquennio ante quam," 1954 or 1953?"

It would have happened in 1958 (subjunctive mood says it hasn't happened yet, which is why we know "quincennio ante" means five years before his death, rather than that he died five years before the birth (if this had been the case, the verb would have been in the pluperfect subjunctive (but more likely an ablative phrase to indicate completed time would have been used..."quinquennio augusto excesso" = (with Augustus having been dead five years))). 1954 would be the year in which Vespasian was born, since you need to ask "How much time has passed?". If four years have passed from the date they started counting, then it is the fifth year: 1954 (year one), 1955 (year two), 1956 (year three), 1957 (year four), 1958 (year five). "In the fifth year" means four years since something happened if you take the absolute value with "0".

The answers to the questions you've asked are worthy of footnotes, even on an exam, to make sure both the literal meaning and the precise, modern meaning are understood.


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## PowerOfChoice

judkinsc said:


> The meaning of "excedero, -ere" is closely linked to death. In a similar way "interficio" means "to kill" or "to die". If it had been "to cede/ to yield power" it would have been simply "cedo, cedere" and it would have taken an object and indirect object (i.e. "he ceded power to Tiberius (i.e. cessit imperium Tiberio). It would be a transitive verb, in other words, rather than intransitive as it is here. Many verbs in Latin can be either transitive or intransitive depending on how they are used.
> 
> Actually, I just translated "quinquennio" literally...


 





Many thanks Judkinsc! 



*Re "quinquennio:"*

Yes, your answer re "quinquennio" is very clear and I have no trouble with what you are saying. Your confirmation of that usage in this particular sentence is valuable to me! It also fits my revised chronology study perfectly, provided the word "excedero" may be associated with an event associated in time with Tiberius being appointed the heir of Augustus (and disassociated with Augustus' death.)



*Re "excedero:"*

You are saying that "The meaning of "excedero, -ere" is closely linked to death." I understand that that may well be the case, perhaps even the most common use or understanding of the word. 

Yet, looking up "excedero" in "Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary" I find the following primary meaning: "*ex-**cēdo* , cessi, cessum:... _Neut._, _to go out_, _go forth_ or _away_, _to depart_, _retire_, _withdraw_."

Don't you agree that the last quoted definition fits quite well with a semi retirement of Augustus, i.e. as closely associated in time with the appointment of Tiberius as his heir? And if we are talking about retiring, semi-retiring, withdrawing, departing, etc., we would be talking about intransitive verbs, would we not, i.e. as explained by you above? And wouldn't such a translation/understanding/interpretation of Suetonius' passage also be linguistically correct?

Please help me see why the linguistics of these Latin words of Suetonius will not allow my current perception of the real time events as per my above suggestions - if indeed they do not.  For I do not know Latin and I do need help with that which I do not know. Many thanks!


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## judkinsc

Sure, PowerofChoice.

"Excedero" can mean "withdraw" as well. It just depends on the context of what Suetonius is saying. Augustus did withdraw when he was old and cede power to Tiberius, more or less, before he died in 14 AD and Tiberius took over as Emperor in name as well. I've heard that Tiberius was emperor in all but name in 13AD. I'll have to look at the context of this passage in Suetonius later to say for sure how it is being used here, but there is no linguistic barrier to the translation as "withdraw."

*Note.  Two translations I've checked note it as the "death" of Augustus.


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## PowerOfChoice

Thanks JudkinsC!

Your input re the specific issues being addressed in this thread has been, and is, most valuable to me! - Not only in confirming my prior findings, but, more importantly, towards re-establishing trust in those before us who carefully and conscientiously recorded contemporary events for our benefit!



 

Thanks also to Anne345... 

for supplying valuable Latin source texts, while also displaying the commonly available English translations of the same! 

Please notice, however, that the years provided, by interpretation, along with those translations do not find general support by all scholars in the field, nor do they correlate with verifiable records of observed celestial events from that time. 

Such approximate years have no doubt been very helpful as a stepping stone upon the road towards more exact discoveries - which discoveries are, as always, subject to errors that will be discovered as ever more light is shed upon our path. 

Once better science is revealed one must take care to follow the lead to the best of one's ability lest one will suffer the fate of such as suddenly falls to their destruction when stepping, albeit in apparent good company with the mob, over the edge of the precipice...

Although I'll admit that identifying and following the truth re any specific is not always as easy as one might wish, it certainly is rewarding for the often lone wolves who do!

Chronology is not a small field to cover comprehensively, yet all that is needed for any one is to verify for one self, one or two incontrovertible facts of one's own choosing!

Praise the Lord of lords who established once and for all the ultimate time keepers on the nightly skies! Compare Genesis 1:14!


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