# Is "skell" a Dutch word?



## GreenWhiteBlue

New York City was originally settled by the Dutch, and there are still various traces of Dutch terms in New York City speech.  For example, while houses in the rest of the country have "steps", it is common for older New York houses to be reached by means of a "stoop".  

I am wondering if a certain term used only by New York City police officers when speaking to each other is another one of these Dutch-descended words.  That word is "_skell_", which New York police officers understand to mean someone who is dirty, ragged, smelly, and probably indigent.  Despite its misuse by television shows, it does not mean a criminal, and especially not if the person is well groomed and nicely dressed.  Are there any Dutch words that are similar to  _skell_, and which have some meaning related to that of "a dirty, smelly beggar"?


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## Diablo919

From wikipedia:

The Dutch _schelm,_ a word meaning a villain or rogue.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Thank you, but I would like to hear what a Dutch speaker has to say about this.


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## Elisabeth85

I don't know the word skell. (I am 100% Dutch, by the way ;-) ) 

For starters... if it would exist it would be written with one L at the end, but again - I know of no such word that means anything in Dutch. What the person before me said makes most sense to me too. Often, I have noticed, words are derived from an original Dutch word but time and interpretation have altered it a bit although there are obvious traces back to the original word. Like "stoop"; sounds the same, means - mostly - the same; stoep = pavement and we don't use it much for a landing w/ steps!) but/and is written like this in Dutch : stoep), 

This could be a good example with skell and schelm, especially the way you describe it is used nowadays. I must add that the word "schelm" still exists in the Dutch language, but is hardly ever used anymore. It is somewhat of an old fashioned word (which in it's turn could explain the connection to skell again I would say).

The only thing I could think of is that the word comes from some Dutch dialect. I come from the Northern part of Holland and people tend to pronouce the word "schuur" (which means shed pronounce : sguur) as skuur. But even if I try to find a Dutch word when I "think" like this with skell, nothing comes to mind.


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## morrison

I'm not sure the New York word "stoop" is necessarily of Dutch origin. The same word is used in Scots English, meaning "door step", and it's unlikely this usage is from the Netherlands. Do they also use it in Irish English? There are other words similar in Scots and Dutch such as kirk/kerk, ken/kennen, because of a common historical origin lost in Anglo Saxon.


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## Diablo919

Once again, from wikipedia:

Originally brought to the Hudson Valley of New York by settlers from the Netherlands, this word is among the few items of Dutch vocabulary that have survived there from colonial times until the present. Stoop, "a small porch" comes from Dutch _stoep_; the word is now in general use in the Northeast and is probably spreading.


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## optimistique

Diablo919 said:


> From wikipedia:
> 
> The Dutch _schelm,_ a word meaning a villain or rogue.



Yes, I think that must be it. The word _schelm_ corresponds well to the usage you described, although it hasn't got any specific connotation of dirty in modern Dutch, but that isn't very relevant in this case (it might had it, might exist in the Dutch of the American colonists, might be an innovation of New York, I don't know). 

It's very interesting to see how Dutch words still survive in New York!


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## Lopes

optimistique said:


> Yes, I think that must be it. The word _schelm_ corresponds well to the usage you described, although it hasn't got any specific connotation of dirty in modern Dutch, but that isn't very relevant in this case (it might had it, might exist in the Dutch of the American colonists, might be an innovation of New York, I don't know).
> 
> It's very interesting to see how Dutch words still survive in New York!


 
But schelm is used only for children, isn't it? Something like the nice word schavuit


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## Baunilha

I'd say that 'schelm" isn't just meant for children.


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## MarcB

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970811
 The origin of *skell* is uncertain. The strangest suggestion I've heard is that it's from the Latin *scelus*, meaning 'a wicked deed; crime; wickedness', which is plausible semantically but otherwise ridiculous. There is a long-established Scots and English word *skelm* (also spelled *skellum* and a few other ways), of Dutch origin, which means 'scoundrel', but it's effectively obsolete (except in South Africa), and the *-m*'s presence is pesky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skell


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## moldo

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Thank you, but I would like to hear what a Dutch speaker has to say about this.


 
Definitely *schelm*

schelm - skell
schaats - skate
schets - sketch
scheef - skew

See? sch becomes sk


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## sukie310

Skell certainly seems to make sense as coming from Schelm which would be pronounced skelm considering the usage of the word in law enforcement and the meaning in Dutch.  However, there is also a Scotch English word Skilder/skelder meaning vagrant, pilferer which fits the but we know that Scottish has roots in Dutch just as English does.    So it would make sense the word is Dutch in origin  or it could just be short for Skeleton as others have asserted.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi everyone

In Afrikaans we say "skelm" for "schelm". For some reason, the letter "c" is almost never used in Afrikaans. So it is quite interesting that the spelling of the word under discussion contains "sk" and not "sch". Could it be that older Dutch dialects used the "k" instead of the "ch"?

Also, in Afrikaans the word "skel" means 'to scold' e.g. "hy bly my uitskel" (he is forever scolding at me).


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## Joannes

Abu Bishr said:


> In Afrikaans we say "skelm" for "schelm". For some reason, the letter "c" is almost never used in Afrikaans. So it is quite interesting that the spelling of the word under discussion contains "sk" and not "sch". Could it be that older Dutch dialects used the "k" instead of the "ch"?


Some dialects still do. In general we see this evolution for this cluster in _anlaut_:
/sk/ > /sx/ > /ʃx/ > /ʃ/
(Standard Dutch is in stage 2)



Abu Bishr said:


> Also, in Afrikaans the word "skel" means 'to scold' e.g. "hy bly my uitskel" (he is forever scolding at me).


< Dutch *schelden* 'to scold', which was reduced to the stem and lost the /d/.


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## zippythecat

The Word "Skell," means scoundrel, a wicked or evil person; someone who does evil deliberately. Most Young NYPD cops don't know this; a reference used by old time NYPD cops.


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## pickarooney

Lopes said:


> But schelm is used only for children, isn't it? Something like the nice word schavuit



I'm almost sure I'm seen this rendered as 'chavvit' in English, probably in a Roald Dahl short storry, and it might be related to the word 'shaver' used afectionately for little children.



> here is also a Scotch English word Skilder/skelder meaning vagrant, pilferer


Strangely similar to the word for painter (_schilder_) in Dutch.


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