# Kinderscenen



## gaer

This refers to a famous set of pieces by Robert Schumann. Note the strange spelling, much like the old "Clavier".

I'm interested in the opinion of NON-musicians, because these famous pieces also have famous names in English, and some I think are rather inaccurate.

To start out, first, what would you prefer for an English translation.

Then, the first piece in the group is: 

"Von fremden Ländern und Menschen"

Same question: what meaning do you get from this, expressed in English? 

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> ... "Von fremden Ländern und Menschen"
> 
> Same question: what meaning do you get from this, expressed in English?
> 
> Gaer


Good Morning, Gaer.

(1) My attempt: "Of foreign countries and (their) people" (I am sure to have heard the proper English name before, but I can't remember the exact wording right now. So this is my literal translation.)

(2) Without any relation to music I would expect some sort of description or narration about foreign (foreign in the sense of remote and exotic) countries and the people who live there.

Ralf


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## Jana337

Is Kinder*sc*enen an old spelling? I thought it was a typo but:

Results 1 - 10 of about 88,200 for Kinderszenen schumann. (0.07 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for Kinderscenen schumann. (0.33 seconds) (which is not few)

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Is Kinder*sc*enen an old spelling? I thought it was a typo but:
> 
> Results 1 - 10 of about 88,200 for Kinderszenen schumann. (0.07 seconds)
> Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for Kinderscenen schumann. (0.33 seconds) (which is not few)
> 
> Jana


 
Yes, it is. Consider Schiller's spelling. (1. Akt, 1. Scene)

It is indeed an old spelling.


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Is Kinder*sc*enen an old spelling? I thought it was a typo but:
> 
> Results 1 - 10 of about 88,200 for Kinderszenen schumann. (0.07 seconds)
> Results 1 - 10 of about 11,000 for Kinderscenen schumann. (0.33 seconds) (which is not few)
> 
> Jana


Jana, let me cut to the chase:

Kinderszenen is wrong. Period. Google reflects an appalling musical ignorance.

It always depresses me when I see the wrong answer pop up almost 10 times as often as the right one. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Jana, let me cut to the chase:
> 
> Kinderszenen is wrong. Period. Google reflects an appalling musical ignorance.
> 
> It always depresses me when I see the wrong answer pop up almost 10 times as often as the right one.
> 
> Gaer


 
No, Gaer, that's not entirely correct. Kinderszenen is not wrong, just modern. The original word it Kinderscenen, undoubtedly, but the word we would use today is indeed "Kinders*z*enen".


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Good Morning, Gaer.
> 
> (1) My attempt: "Of foreign countries and (their) people" (I am sure to have heard the proper English name before, but I can't remember the exact wording right now. So this is my literal translation.)


The English translation: About Strange Lands and People.


> (2) Without any relation to music I would expect some sort of description or narration about foreign (foreign in the sense of remote and exotic) countries and the people who live there.


Exactly. "Fremd" is not easily translated, and I dislike the word "strange".

The next one is "Kuriose Geschichte" (Curious Story), no problem there, but then comes:

"Hasche-Mann"

I'll leave that as a puzzle, because you can already guess that there is no good translation. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Oh No. I just found this


			
				gaer said:
			
		

> Here is an example of incorrect usage:
> 
> COMPACT DISC, *Kinderscenen* *Schumann*, Robert, 1810-1856. On CD: Kinderszenen op.
> 15 = Scenes from childhood
> 
> And by the way, there are only 13.


That in fact is correct, with the "c". I had meant to post an incorrect example. There were many that came up. However, I was correct in saying that there are only 13 "scenes", not 15.

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> I'm in the process of recording them, which is the largest reason for my TEMPORORY absence, probably celebrated by all who would like to see this forum stay in German and not be interrupted by my English contributions.


Mensch, wie kannst du!  By now, Spanish is an established language in the German forum, and we are branching out into Hebrew. 

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Mensch, wie kannst du!  By now, Spanish is an established language in the German forum, and we are branching out into Hebrew.
> 
> Jana


Cool! <BIG GRIN>

Gaer


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Mensch, wie kannst du!  By now, Spanish is an established language in the German forum, and we are branching out into Hebrew.
> 
> Jana


 
So sehen also deine Vorstellungen vom Deutschforum aus. Ich hätte doch mehr Hebräisch lernen sollen. Zurück zu Gaer: Es ist doch egal wie deine Threads aufgebaut sind, wir sollten uns einfach mehr an deine Signatur halten!


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Sorry, Who, I was not clear.
> 
> Kinderscenen is the only correct word in connection with Schumann's composition. It can only be that because that is what Schumann wrote.
> 
> But in general, of course Kinderszenen is 100% correct.


 
Ok, this is clear. I though you were insisting on today's use of "Kinderscenen".


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> ... The next one is "Kuriose Geschichte" (Curious Story), no problem there, but then comes:
> 
> "Hasche-Mann"
> 
> I'll leave that as a puzzle, because you can already guess that there is no good translation.
> 
> Gaer


Hieß denn der Titel in der originalen Schreibweise nicht eigentlich "Curiose Geschichte"? Als Übersetzung für den "Hasche-Mann" würde ich ganz einfach "tag it" oder "tag that guy" vorschlagen, da sich "Hasche-Mann" ganz offensichtlich auf das Kinderspiel "Haschen" bzw. "Fangen" (= tag) bezieht. 
...
Mittlerweile habe ich, mehr zufällig, den englischen Titel gefunden: "Blindman's Buff" (Blindman's Bluff ist eine weitere gängige Bezeichnung ... welche ist den nun dir richtige  ) heißt in der Rückübersetzung aber eigentlich "Blinde Kuh". Das ist zwar auch eine Form des "Fange-Spiels", aber den ursprünglichen Titel "Hasche-Mann" hätte ich damit keinesfalls in Verbindung gebracht; vielleicht auch weil "Hasche-Mann" im Deutschen mittlerweile mehr als gewöhnungsbedürftig klingt. "Blinde Kuh" finde ich da schon viel besser und unter "Blindman's Buff" kann ich mir doch etwas genaueres vorstellen, als unter "Hasche-Mann". So gesehen, finde ich die Übersetzung gar nicht so schlecht.

Ralf


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hieß denn der Titel in der originalen Schreibweise nicht eigentlich "Curiose Geschichte"?


In fact, I typed it with a "c", but both my editions (I have two) clearly use a "k" there. A small mystery!


> Als Übersetzung für den "Hasche-Mann" würde ich ganz einfach "tag it" oder "tag that guy" vorschlagen, da sich "Hasche-Mann" ganz offensichtlich auf das Kinderspiel "Haschen" bzw. "Fangen" (= tag) bezieht.


Okay. I have two translations (two books).

Catch me!
Blindman's bluff.

Someone once explained to me, in detail, the meaning of ""Hasche-Mann", and I thought there was more to it.


> Mittlerweile habe ich, mehr zufällig, den englischen Titel gefunden: "Blindman's Buff" (Blindman's Bluff ist eine weitere gängige Bezeichnung ... welche ist den nun dir richtige  ) heißt in der Rückübersetzung aber eigentlich "Blinde Kuh". Das ist zwar auch eine Form des "Fange-Spiels", aber den ursprünglichen Titel "Hasche-Mann" hätte ich damit keinesfalls in Verbindung gebracht; vielleicht auch weil "Hasche-Mann" im Deutschen mittlerweile mehr als gewöhnungsbedürftig klingt.


Is it an old-fashioned term, game, etc.?

And are you saying that "Blinde Kuh" has much the same meaning as "blindman's bluff"? It's certainly much to late to change Schumann's title.


> "Blinde Kuh" finde ich da schon viel besser und unter "Blindman's Buff" kann ich mir doch etwas genaueres vorstellen, als unter "Hasche-Mann". So gesehen, finde ich die Übersetzung gar nicht so schlecht.


I guess what I need is a description. Playing "catch" or "you're it" and playing "blindman's bluff" are very different things, since catch only involves running and no blindfold. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Is it an old-fashioned term, game, etc.?
> 
> And are you saying that "Blinde Kuh" has much the same meaning as "blindman's bluff"? It's certainly much to late to change Schumann's title.
> 
> I guess what I need is a description. Playing "catch" or "you're it" and playing "blindman's bluff" are very different things, since catch only involves running and no blindfold.


 
Ich würde nicht behaupten, "Blinde Kuh" ist ein altmodisches Spiel, das gibt es immer noch ... und es dürfte ungefähr dieselbe Bedeutung wie "Blindman's buff" haben.

PS: Der Wikipedia-Artikel von Blind man's bLuff ist doch korrekturbedürftig, oder?


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## Steve W

Whodunit said:
			
		

> PS: Der Wikipedia-Artikel von Blind man's bLuff ist doch korrekturbedürftig, oder?



Nein, sieht o.k. aus. Oder habe ich da was übersehen?


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## Whodunit

Steve W said:
			
		

> Nein, sieht o.k. aus. Oder habe ich da was übersehen?


 
Heißt es denn "Blindman's buff" oder "Blindman's b*l*uff"?


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## Steve W

Ich kenne nur 'Blindman's bluff', aber nach Google zu urteilen ist 'Blindman's buff' weiter verbreitet.  Wieder was gelernt!


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## Whodunit

Steve W said:
			
		

> Ich kenne nur 'Blindman's bluff', aber nach Google zu urteilen ist 'Blindman's buff' weiter verbreitet.  Wieder was gelernt!


 
Deswegen sagte ich ja, "Der Wikipedia-Artikel von Blind man's bLuff ist doch korrekturbedürftig".  Gaer hat "buff" verwendet, Wikipedia und du "bluff". Wem soll ich glauben?


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Deswegen sagte ich ja, "Der Wikipedia-Artikel von Blind man's bLuff ist doch korrekturbedürftig".  Gaer hat "buff" verwendet, Wikipedia und du "bluff". Wem soll ich glauben?


Daniel, if you check, I think you will find out that I did not use "Buff". You probably saw it in a quote. Until I read the thread here, I did not know the other word existed. But from what I've read, "Buff" is definitely also correct and quite possibly an earlier form. I need to reread Ralf's post. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> ...
> Mittlerweile habe ich, mehr zufällig, den englischen Titel gefunden: "Blindman's Buff" (Blindman's Bluff ist eine weitere gängige Bezeichnung ... welche ist den nun dir richtige  ) heißt in der Rückübersetzung aber eigentlich "Blinde Kuh".


Ralf, I missed your question because of my own ignorance. I have only heard of "Blindman's Bluff", never "Buff". But apparently "Bluff" came later, and "Buff" is actually correct. And "buff" has the meaning of "a blow", which would make us think of someone getting hit. I have no idea how the "game", if it was originally a game, was played.

Right now I think you have more information than I do. But as for "Hasche-Mann", I thought this was a scary character of some kind.

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> .... But as for "Hasche-Mann", I thought this was a scary character of some kind.
> 
> Gaer


Yes, perhaps some kind of "Kinderfänger" (childsnatcher) as in the story of The Pied Piper. I can imagine that parents told their children to run away from such dubious characters which then found its expression in games and terms such as "Hasche-Mann".

Ralf


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## kyjelly_06

Das Stück in meinem Buch heißt "Catch me if you can!"

Am Nächsten haben wir "Bittendes Kind"....


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## gaer

kyjelly_06 said:


> Das Stück in meinem Buch heißt "Catch me if you can!"
> 
> Am Nächsten haben wir "Bittendes Kind"....


link
This is to an earlier post in this thread. In that post Ralf suggested "tag", and "Catch me if you can" would refer to a game of tag.

The English title you have mentioned is standard in all the books I've seen that do not use the origianl German titles.

Gaer


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