# Cavaliere



## delle

Per quanto só che il titolo di Cavaliere é un titolo minore dato dal comune di solito per atti speciali nella comunitá o nel commercio, quale sarebbe essere la traduzione piú vicina: sir ? or just Mister?

Please advise

Thank you

Dl


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## TimLA

In BE sarebbe "Sir" per un "Knight"...ma so che in Italia "cavaliere" non è così "formale" come in Inghilterra.
Forse, soltanto "Mister"...


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## DAH

I had asked the same question:  see this thread.


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## delle

Thank you to all for the help
dl


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## Alxmrphi

I'm reading an article about Silvio and it keeps saying "Cavaliere", is it referring to him?


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## MünchnerFax

Yes. _Cavaliere_ is a honour awarded by the _Presidente della Repubblica_ (see the Italian Wiki here). Berlusconi got it many years ago, and has been the _Cavaliere_ per excellence since then.


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## Alxmrphi

MünchnerFax said:


> Yes. _Cavaliere_ is an honour awarded



Ah ok, I thought it might have been using it as a translation for "knight" or "sir" or some pompus way of making him seem super important (the way certain media are biased about different political sides).

Does this award only come at times when it is deserved or does it get given out every year or so?


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## federicoft

MünchnerFax said:


> Yes. _Cavaliere_ is a honour awarded by the _Presidente della Repubblica_ (see the Italian Wiki here). Berlusconi got it many years ago, and has been the _Cavaliere_ per excellence since then.



These are the _Ordine al Merito della Repubblica italiana _(OMRI) ranks, something roughly similar to the British OBE.
Berlusconi is a _Cavaliere del Lavoro_ (Knight of the Order for Labour), not a _Cavaliere dell'Ordine al Merito_ (Knight of the Order of Merit).

I think there isn't any direct equivalent title in the British honours systems. It is a title given every May Day to fourty distinguished people for their service in industry, banking, commerce and such.


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## spero

How can CAVALIER be translated as a title for a man?

For example,

Cavalier Berlusconi (politics)
Cavalier Marconi (industrialist)
etc.

Thank you!


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## effeundici

Berlusconi è cavaliere in quanto industriale non in quanto politico.

Forse questo ti può aiutare.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordine_al_Merito_del_Lavoro


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## spero

Ah!  Grazie mille! I understand the usage now, but I don't think there really is a translation!


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## effeundici

Giusto per curiosità ricordo che anche Benito Mussolini era chiamato cavaliere.


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## baldpate

I too don't think it can be accurately translated.  But if you really need to do so, you might consider "The Honourable"/"The Honorable", which is an appelation used in many different circumstances to denote persons of distinction.


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## effeundici

What about? _Mario Rossi CH_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Companions_of_Honour


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## federicoft

effeundici said:


> What about? _Mario Rossi CH_



Questo lo escluderei, indicherebbe che Mario Rossi è stato insignito dell'Order of the Companions of Honour, che è un preciso ordine cavalleresco statale del Regno Unito.

La descrizione estesa del titolo italiano di "Cavaliere del Lavoro" dovrebbe essere "Knight of the [Italian] Order for Labour". Come appellativo onorifico, non credo sia traducibile.


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## effeundici

federicoft said:


> Questo lo escluderei, indicherebbe che Mario Rossi è stato insignito dell'Order of the Companions of Honour, che è un preciso ordine cavalleresco statale del Regno Unito.
> 
> La descrizione estesa del titolo italiano di "Cavaliere del Lavoro" dovrebbe essere "Knight of the [Italian] Order for Labour". Come appellativo onorifico, non credo sia traducibile.


 
In effetti hai ragione; sarebbe una traduzione vergognosamente fuorviante.


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## ucci

Ciao a tutti,
nel testo che sto traducendo le persone sono citate con il loro titolo, per esempio il barone X, l'avvocato Y, il cav. Z. 
Volevo chiedere il vostro giudizio sulla mia decisione di lasciare cavaliere in italiano, per esteso invece che puntato, e porre la domanda "iniziale maiuscola o no?"
In un caso si tratta dei cav. G. e P.  XYZ (dove G e P sono i nomi e XYZ il cognome) e l'idea di scrivere "cavalieri" non mi convince, ma d'altra parte in quello che è già un elenco non posso proprio dividerli !!
Grazie fin d'ora


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## fran06

Essendo un titolo io lo scriverei con la maiuscola e per intero. "Il Cavaliere G XYZ"


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## anglomania1

Hi there, 
I need to translate "cavaliere" too, in front of someone's name (like Cavaliere Berlusconi).
I'm not really sure this thread answers the question- and the link to another thread certainly doesn't answer it, as it asks how to translate "Sir" into Italian and the conclusion is that "cavaliere" is no good!
So to go over the above, I like Baldpate's "the honourable", but is that only for politicians? (I'm assuming that not all cavalieri are politicians).
"Sir" doesn't seem to be right  and my gentleman in question is a wine producer, so maybe nearer to Berlusconi, as a meaning? (I mean talking about industry and work?)

Any other suggestions?
Thanks for any ideas, 
Anglo


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## Odysseus54

I don't think you can translate it with a single term - there are currently two classes of 'cavalieri' , 'Cavalieri della Repubblica' and 'Cavalieri del Lavoro'.  These titles are obviously a hybrid that adapts a medieval term created in feudal times to express a concept of feudal service and allegiance, to a modern republic.  

The 'Cavalieri della Repubblica' are awarded the 'knighthood' because of a distinctive career as public servants or in the Arts and Letters or in business.

The 'Cavalieri del Lavoro' are awarded the title because of a distinctive career as business owners/leaders.  'Knights of Industry', perhaps ?

Translating it is as challenging as translating a lot of those diverse titles the Italians like to affix to their names :  Geom., Rag. , P.I., P.A., Avv., Arch. etc., and that really do not have a corresponding term in English, as titles.

Maybe " Mr. xxx, a recipient of the coveted 'Knighthood/Knights of Industry' award.."


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## anglomania1

Odysseus54 said:


> Maybe " Mr. xxx, a recipient of the coveted 'Knighthood/Knights of Industry' award.."


That's a good idea - thanks Odysseus!


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## elfa

Odysseus54 said:


> Maybe " Mr. xxx, a recipient of the coveted 'Knighthood/Knights of Industry' award.."



I've also seen _"il Cavaliere" Berlusconi_ in English texts (and the parentheses weren't meant ironically either!)


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## anglomania1

elfa said:


> I've also seen _"il Cavaliere" Berlusconi_ in English texts (and the parentheses weren't meant ironically either!)


 Of course not! 
Thanks for that, it's something I've been wondering about - it may be the  best bet yet!
Thanks elfa, 
Anglo


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## Odysseus54

However, I think the Italian term has ever been used in English only in conjunction with the names of Mussolini and Berlusconi.  In Italy we know the meaning of 'Cavaliere del Lavoro' (Mussolini was a 'Cavaliere d'Italia') .  If your English readers do not know the meaning of the title, which is that of a merit award for business leaders, and only ever saw it in conjunction with two proverbial scu... - I mean two controversial politicians, don't you run the risk of characterizing an innocent vintner in a less than flattering way , or anyway leaving out the meaning of the title ?


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## MR1492

Reference the suggestion by Elfa, we often see titles and honorifics expressed in their native languages here in the USA.  While we may have cut our ties to the English monarchy many years ago, we are still entranced by the idea of royalty and titles.  So, I think the idea of rendering the title in the native language has a flair which could go over well.

Phil


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## WordsWordWords

Hello everyone, I am reviving this thread.

I am translating a bit of Italian history for a website and have come across the name "Cav. Biagio Mentone" in the following sentence:

"Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia donava il castello nel 1569 al suo consigliere e governatore di Bene, Cav. Biagio Mentone, al quale concedeva pure il titolo di Signore di S. Stefano."

I am tempted to use "Knight Biagio Mentone" since the term "Sir" is an honorific for several types of military and noble address and I want to include his status. Alternatively, could I just use "Cavalier Biagio Mentone", as per Phil's comment in post 25?

Any input is appreciated  Thank you!


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## elfa

Hi WWW 

I don't think "Cavalier so-and-so" has much if any resonance for English readers - BE at any rate - who are not familiar with the Italian orders of merit, especially on a website where readers are not necessarily already plugged into Italian history. I also don't like "Knight so-and-so"  when used as an appellation - I've personally never seen that written.

What about Odysseus's suggestion in post 20 - _Biagio Mentone, recipient of a Knighthood etc etc_ describing the kind of knighthood it is e.g. _of the Realm_? Or even _Biagio Mentone, Knight of the Realm_ (or whatever it is)?


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## WordsWordWords

Hi Elfa,

Thank you for the prompt suggestion. I agree with the use of Italian nomenclature for English readers. What I am worried about is how to work in "_recipient of a Knighthood_" or describing the type or even _Knight of XXXX_ (because it isn't mentioned in the text). The title Cav. simply precedes the name. No other info  The entire sentence in Italian is as follows:

...L'ordine [abbattere un castello] non dovette essere eseguito perché, alcuni anni dopo, il castello compare citato in un atto con cui il duca Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia lo donava nel 1569 al suo consigliere e governatore di Bene, Cav. Biagio Mentone, al quale concedeva pure il titolo di Signore di S. Stefano.

This is what I have for now:
Apparently they were not carried out, as records from 1569 show that it was given to Biagio Mentone, one of Duke Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy's knights as well as his counsel and viceroy and upon whom the duke further bestowed the title of Lord of Santo Stefano.

What do you think? (Oy -- longwinded?)
Thanks


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## elfa

WordsWordWords said:


> This is what I have for now:
> Apparently they were not carried out, as records from 1569 show that it was given to Biagio Mentone, one of Duke Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy's knights as well as his counsel and viceroy and upon whom the duke further bestowed the title of Lord of Santo Stefano.
> 
> What do you think? (Oy -- longwinded?)



No I don't! I think that's a good way to get round it, especially given the lack of information that you mention. 
As a side observation (and you may have got your sentence perfectly under control), you say "*they* [were not carried out]" referring to the order to destroy the castle, then "*it* was given to Biagio Mentone" referring to the castle. Are you sure the reader would have everything straight in their head with your use of "they" and "it"? 
I'm also curious - where is Bene? The use of "viceroy" would suggest that it's a colony...


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## Mary49

elfa said:


> I'm also curious - where is Bene? The use of "viceroy" would suggest that it's a colony...


Bene Vagienna - Wikipedia   "*Bene Vagienna* is a _comune_ (municipality) in the Province of Cuneo in the Italian region Piedmont, located about 60 kilometres (37 mi) south of Turin and about 30 kilometres (19 mi) northeast of Cuneo".


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## elfa

Mary49 said:


> Bene Vagienna - Wikipedia   "*Bene Vagienna* is a _comune_ (municipality) in the Province of Cuneo in the Italian region Piedmont, located about 60 kilometres (37 mi) south of Turin and about 30 kilometres (19 mi) northeast of Cuneo".



Thanks, Mary 
Then, on the face of it, I wouldn't use "viceroy" - but let's hear from Words, who may have her own reasons...


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## WordsWordWords

Hi Elfa and Mary --

Thank you both! 

Yes, as Mary said, "Bene" refers to Bene Vagienna >> in the English version I am writing it out fully. (That the Italian version would leave it in an abbreviated form is a detail that I am pointing out to the authors because I disagree with using a shortened version on a boutique hotel website -- too colloquial!) 

@Mary The knight in question was indeed the "governatore" of Bene Vagienna. Can you suggest a better word than "_viceroy_" for the English? Would "_governor_" be more appropriate? (I also used it for the "_governatore_ di Cherasco"..... ) >>> the definition of viceroy

@elfa: you say _"*they* [were not carried out]" referring to the order to destroy the castle, then "*it* was given to Biagio Mentone" referring to the castle. >> _*Exac**tly!* 

Hence:

This: 
Nel 1552 il governatore di Cherasco diede l'ordine di abbatterlo, poiché lo riteneva un ostacolo alle sue operazioni militari. L'ordine non dovette essere eseguito perché, alcuni anni dopo, il castello compare citato in un atto con cui il duca Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia lo donava nel 1569 al suo consigliere e governatore di Bene [Vagienna].

Becomes:

In 1552 the viceroy of Cherasco saw the castle as an obstacle to his military operations and gave orders to tear it down. Apparently they were not carried out, as records from 1569 show that it was given to Biagio Mentone, one of Duke Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy's knights as well as his counsel and the viceroy of Bene Vagienna.

Yes? 
Thank you again


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## Mary49

I would use "governor":  Historical, Literary, and Artistic Travels in Italy 
Europe in the 16th Century


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## elfa

Mary49 said:


> I would use "governor":  Historical, Literary, and Artistic Travels in Italy
> Europe in the 16th Century



I second that 



WordsWordWords said:


> Becomes:
> 
> In 1552 the viceroy of Cherasco saw the castle as an obstacle to his military operations and gave orders to tear it down. Apparently they were not carried out, as records from 1569 show that it was given to Biagio Mentone, one of Duke Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy's knights as well as his counsel and the viceroy of Bene Vagienna.
> 
> Yes?



That reads fine, Words. Although if I were being super-picky, I might change it to

_Apparently these orders were not carried out..._ or
_Apparently they were not carried, as records from 1569 show that the castle was given to..._ 

in order to make it absolutely clear.


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## WordsWordWords

elfa said:


> I second that
> 
> 
> 
> That reads fine, Words. Although if I were being super-picky, I might change it to
> 
> _Apparently these orders were not carried out..._ or
> _Apparently they were not carried, as records from 1569 show that the castle was given to..._
> 
> in order to make it absolutely clear.




Yes Elfa, I like your suggestions - makes it clearer. Thank you!



Mary49 said:


> I would use "governor":  Historical, Literary, and Artistic Travels in Italy
> Europe in the 16th Century



Thank you Mary - that's what I was leaning toward.


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## london calling

Mary49 said:


> I would use "governor":  Historical, Literary, and Artistic Travels in Italy
> Europe in the 16th Century


Undoubtedly.


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## Pietruzzo

WordsWordWords said:


> one of Duke Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy's knights


Questo mi fa pensare ai cavalieri di re Artù Non era un "cavaliere del duca", aveva semplicemente il titolo di cavaliere, che fra l'altro credo fosse il titolo nobiliare più basso. Per me "Sir Biagio Mentone" andava bene


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## WordsWordWords

Thanks Pietruzzo  However, I believe that in English the word as I have used it implies that not only was Mentone of noble stature (a knight) as so awarded by the Duke of Savoy, he also held the military rank as knight when at battle. See this:  

Knight - Wikipedia


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## Pietruzzo

WordsWordWords said:


> See this:
> 
> Knight - Wikipedia


 I cavalieri medievali di cui parla la pagina Wiki del tuo link nel 1500 non esistevano più da un pezzo. Confermo la mia opinione: "cavaliere" è solo un titolo nobiliare e non abbiamo elementi per dire che questo titolo fosse stato attribuito dal duca Emanuele Filiberto. Il ruolo di Mentone era di "governatore e consigliere", non di cavaliere con l'armatura.
Detto questo, sta a te la valutazione finale.


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## london calling

Pietruzzo said:


> Questo mi fa pensare ai cavalieri di re Artù Non era un "cavaliere del duca", aveva semplicemente il titolo di cavaliere, che fra l'altro credo fosse il titolo nobiliare più basso. Per me "Sir Biagio Mentone" andava bene


'Sir' doesn't come into it. We're not talking about a Knight of the Realm.


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