# Once upon a time, A long time ago



## clevermizo

I want to ask a little about the storytelling traditions in colloquial Arabic. As I have posted before, I have been working through الف ليلة وليلة slowly but surely, and there is this common intro I notice, which is I suppose the analogue to the English "Long, long ago in a land far, far away":


كان في قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والأوان...


I wanted to ask how this sort of phrasiology was accomplished in colloquial storytelling. I would love to hear responses from the variety of dialects represented by speakers here on the forum. 

Thanks​


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## WadiH

clevermizo said:


> I want to ask a little about the storytelling traditions in colloquial Arabic. As I have posted before, I have been working through الف ليلة وليلة slowly but surely, and there is this common intro I notice, which is I suppose the analogue to the English "Long, long ago in a land far, far away":
> 
> 
> كان في قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والأوان...​
> 
> 
> I wanted to ask how this sort of phrasiology was accomplished in colloquial storytelling. I would love to hear responses from the variety of dialects represented by speakers here on the forum.​
> 
> 
> Thanks​


 
They usually use the same one you quoted above, if at all.


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## Josh_

In Egyptian I have frequently heard "marra kaan fii..." which of course is nothing grandiloquent, but rather just a simple opener, literally being "Once there was..."


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## WadiH

Josh_ said:


> In Egyptian I have frequently heard "marra kaan fii..." which of course is nothing grandiloquent, but rather just a simple opener, literally being "Once there was..."


 
That's essentially how most stories begin; nothing grandiloquent at all.  Sorry to disappoint you clevermizo .

It usually just goes like "ygooloon inn kan feeh ... etc.", or its equivalent in other dialects.

It's common to borrow the one from Alf Layla that you mentioned if the story is being told to children.

Also, there are the "epics" such as those of Baybars or Abu Zayd Al-Hilali.  I've never listened to them, but they might have some interesting preludes.


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## MarcB

What about كان يا ما كان in coloquial? And صارمدة طويلة ?


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## ayed

In Badawi dialect , we say:
**yegoloon kan feeh*( It is said that) 

* *kan ya ma kan fee gadeem az-zamaan*(كان ياما كان في قديم الزمان)

*if the story is a myth, we begin our story as follows:

*youm 'aad kolshin aytaHaka, kan feeh*(يوم عاد كل شي يتحاكى)When everythings would speak , there was...)


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## Abu Rashid

> كان ياما كان



Is that correct? or is it كان يا مكان?


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## WadiH

MarcB said:


> What about كان يا ما كان in coloquial? And صارمدة طويلة ?


 
كان يا ما كان is used in colloquial as well.  There is no high wall separating colloquial and written Arabic as people may be apt to imagine .


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## cherine

clevermizo said:


> كان في قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والأوان...​
> I wanted to ask how this sort of phrasiology was accomplished in colloquial storytelling. I would love to hear responses from the variety of dialects represented by speakers here on the forum.


In Egypt, we usually say:
 كان يا ما كان في سالف العصر والأوان، كان في... ​


Josh_ said:


> In Egyptian I have frequently heard "marra kaan fii..." which of course is nothing grandiloquent, but rather just a simple opener, literally being "Once there was..."


The مرة كان في or كان في مرة is correct, but mostly used with jokes.


Abu Rashid said:


> Is that correct? or is it كان يا مكان?


The expression ياما or يا ما means "so many". It's like saying "there once was, and oh how many things there were...".


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## clevermizo

Wadi Hanifa said:


> That's essentially how most stories begin; nothing grandiloquent at all.  Sorry to disappoint you clevermizo .



None of the responses have been disappointing in the slightest.  I had no idea what to expect; I just wanted to know what types of phrases were common. 

Thanks to everyone who has posted. I have seen كان يا ما كان before as well. It was interesting to find out that the سالف العصر والأوان was used. I figured في قديم الزمان was probably also used, however I wasn't sure whether for "effect" it would be pronounced as in fus7a, or if it would end up being "fi gadiim/2adiim iz-zamaan." 

Thanks again.


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## elroy

I have nothing substantial to add: in Palestinian Arabic we say "kaan yaama kaan fii 2adiim iz-zamaan" (so colloquial pronunciation).

I agree with Cherine about "marra kaan fii."  That is the classic joke opener.


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## Josh_

The operative word must be 'mostly' because all the stories I have heard told by a native Egyptian started with 'marra kaan fii.'  But alas, I did have an atypical experience in Egypt.


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## Abu Rashid

cherine,



> The expression ياما or يا ما means "so many". It's like saying "there once was, and oh how many things there were..."



So كان يا مكان is not correct then? I have never seen it written before, and from what I thought I heard, it sounded as I have written it, but it's strange to find now that it's not correct.


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> cherine,
> 
> 
> 
> So كان يا مكان is not correct then? I have never seen it written before, and from what I thought I heard, it sounded as I have written it, but it's strange to find now that it's not correct.



The expression is كان يا ما كان , as in "كان يا ما كان في قديم الزمان ، كان تاجر كثير المال والاعمال" from الف ليلة. It may sound "yaa ma" or "ya ma" rather than "yaa maa" because I doubt those are articulated with two truly long vowels.

Edit: Sorry, I'm not cherine. I only realize now that that was at the top of your question.


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## Abu Rashid

cleverizmo,



> Sorry, I'm not cherine. I only realize now that that was at the top of your question



No problem, anyone who can clarify this for me is welcome.



> كان يا ما كان من قديم الزمان



This phrase brings up only 2 results in google (typos perhaps?), so I really don't think it's a correct spelling. I can't see that being the spelling in any book, if it has only 2 google results.

Perhaps what I suggested is fus7a, and what others have written (including yourself) is the colloqiual, which is what you asked for anyway I guess.


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## clevermizo

Abu Rashid said:


> cleverizmo,
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, anyone who can clarify this for me is welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> This phrase brings up only 2 results in google (typos perhaps?), so I really don't think it's a correct spelling. I can't see that being the spelling in any book, if it has only 2 google results.
> 
> Perhaps what I suggested is fus7a, and what others have written (including yourself) is the colloqiual, which is what you asked for anyway I guess.



I'm sorry, it should be "كان يا ما كان في قديم الزمان".

Apparently there are results for كان يا مكان, I even found "كان يا مكان في قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والأوان". I don't know what the status of this usage is. However, despite the colloquial tendencies of الف ليلة, it is hardly deniable that the language is primarily fus7a. I so far have not found "كان يا مكان". Now, you will say that I wrote about "كان في قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والاوان" and that is true. However, this formula is realized in different ways:



كان فيما مضى من قديم الزمان وسالف العصر والأوان...
كان يا ما كان في قديم الزمان...
كان في قديم الزمان...

​
ُEtc. Note, that for what it's worth, the Al-Kitaab series has chosen the rendition "كان يا ما كان" about two pages in from the first lesson, as an exercise in recognizing the letter alif..


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> cleverizmo,
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, anyone who can clarify this for me is welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> This phrase brings up only 2 results in google (typos perhaps?), so I really don't think it's a correct spelling. I can't see that being the spelling in any book, if it has only 2 google results.
> 
> Perhaps what I suggested is fus7a, and what others have written (including yourself) is the colloqiual, which is what you asked for anyway I guess.


 
This is simply what we call خطأ شائع.


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## Abu Rashid

Wadi Hanifa,

Can you be a little more specific? What exactly is the common mistake? What I typed? Or what cleverizmo typed?


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> Wadi Hanifa,
> 
> Can you be a little more specific? What exactly is the common mistake? What I typed? Or what cleverizmo typed?


 
First of all, I just noticed something. The reason you only got 2 google hits is that you typed "كان يا مكان *من* قديم الزمان" instead of "*في *قديم الزمان".

Here's what I get from google (using quotation marks):
كان ياما كان 150,000
كان يا ما كان 188,000
كان يا مكان 188,000 

كان يا ما كان في قديم الزمان 14,400
كان ياما كان في قديم الزمان 536
كان يا ماكان في قديم الزمان 960
كان يا مكان في قديم الزمان 16,000
كان يمكان في قديم الزمان 410

What I meant was "كان يا مكان" is a common error, whereas the correct form is كان ياما كان, in my humble opinion.


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## Abu Rashid

> First of all, I just noticed something. The reason you only got 2 google hits is that you typed "كان يا مكان *من* قديم الزمان" instead of "*في *قديم الزمان".


I just copy/pasted, but I see now cleverizmo said they typed it wrong.

I got almost the same results as you. Which is why I became confused, because that's a very very commmon mistake, if it even surpasses the correct spelling when grouped into the phrase with في قديم الزمان

كان ياما كان 150,000
كان يا ما كان 191,000
كان يا مكان 187,000

كان يا ما كان في قديم الزمان 14,300
كان ياما كان في قديم الزمان 598
كان يا مكان في قديم الزمان 15,700



> whereas the correct form is كان ياما كان, in my humble opinion.


I'm not saying you're not right, and the "truth is not always with the majority", but I find it hard to fathom that this spelling only 598 results compared with around 15,000 each for the two "common mistakes". This must means Arabs are very bad spellers


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## cherine

Abu Rashid said:


> I find it hard to fathom that this spelling only 598 results compared with around 15,000 each for the two "common mistakes". This must means Arabs are very bad spellers


Oh yes, they are  Not all of them/us of course; luckily, there is still a large number of well educated Arabs 
But the problem is that the education level is not half as good as it used to be 20 or 30 years ago  So a lot of what's written in websites must be taken carefully, and examined with comparison to older texts, dictionaries... And, once more  We shouldn't take Google's result as a trustworthy index of correctness.

Back to يا ما كان and يا مكان : Let's judge by meaning:
يا مكان = Oh! place
يا ما كان/ ياما كان = how many (things/events) there were
Note that yaama/yama is not necessarily a fuS7a expression, but at least it makes more sense in this structure than مكان


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## coptiyah

Hi,



كان ياما كان في قديم الزمان كان فيه....


it's like saying once as so often happens long ago there was...
 and the tale is on it's way. 

Yaama is used like "often" or "many times", 

so someone asks you : have you tried to build a dam here? 

you answer:  ياما حاولنا بس كل ما نبني السد =we tried so often but every time we build a dam...


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## ayed

I am for those who are saying "yama kan" means " *many things/often happen*".
In my own Badawi dialect :

*ياما نصحت محمد لكن ما فاد*
How often/much I advise Muhammaed but in vain 
*ياما قلت له سو ذا لكنه عنيد*
How often/much did I command him to do this but he was stubborn.


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## Zuze

Ahlan fikum ya jama3a!

A few days ago I heard a radio show (in Radio Ashams) the words “مرة, بالزمانات", meaning “a long time ago”.

I came up with a few words that might have a similar meaning in PA, and wanted to know if it is indeed so. Also, I would be delighted to hear of other words you know that mean “a long time ago”:

في القديم
في الزمان القديم
من زمان
مرة, بالزمانات

In the Arabic version of Disney’s Beauty and the Beast I’ve also heard “كان يا ما كان”, which is a phrase I particularly like!

Thank you!
roey

*P.S*
This thread holds two nice examples of phrases close to those I’m interested in.

*Moderator note:*
*I merged this new thread to the previous one, as they discuss the same topic. Please don't forget to search the forum before opening a new thread. Thanks  *


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## Mahaodeh

كان يا مكان is a set clause to start a story, exactly like "once upon a time". You may also add في قديم الزمان and some very old fashion grandmothers may say:

كان يا ما كان، في قديم الزمان
ولا يحلى الكلام
إلا بذكر النبي عليه الصلاة والسلام
Then start the story (well, at least that's how my grandmother used start her stories )

As for the rest, there is actually a difference in use between من زمان and بالزمانات. It's basically the context. To give an English example, من زمان is "a long time ago" or "long ago" or "it's been a while" depending on context while بالزمانات means specifically "in the good ol' days".


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## Zuze

Thank you so much for your answer (and your grandmother as well)!
So to make sure I got this right, I could start a story with any of them, except for "من زمان"?


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## elroy

No.   The most common story-starter is كان ياما كان.  You can add في قديم الزمان, but you can't start with it.

You could also use مرة, but that tends to be used for jokes rather than longer stories.

I've never heard في القديم or في الزمان القديم.

You can't start a story with من زمان or بالزمانات.


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## Zuze

Thanks, Elroy!
Always a pleasure reading your posts...


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## Qureshpor

According to Hans Wehr (Arabic - English Dictionary), the expression is:

کان ما کان which is supposed to mean, "Once upon a time...".  There is no mention of "یا". I wonder if "یا" is a borrowing from Persian meaning "or".


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## cherine

I didn’t find this in my copy,. Under which entry did you find it? Or could you copy the full sentence you found in the dictionary?

I doubt that it’s a Persian borrowing. Please check the older posts in this thread, three persons at least commented that ياما/ يا ما is a set expression (regardless of its source) that means a lot or many thing. And maybe this is clearer in the version with a waaw: كان ويا ما/وياما كان.


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## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> I didn’t find this in my copy,. Under which entry did you find it? Or could you copy the full sentence you found in the dictionary?
> 
> I doubt that it’s a Persian borrowing. Please check the older posts in this thread, three persons at least commented that ياما/ يا ما is a set expression (regardless of its source) that means a lot or many thing. And maybe this is clearer in the version with a waaw: كان ويا ما/وياما كان.


First part. 4th edition. 1994, page 993

Second part. Your doubt may be well founded that it's not a Persian borrowing.  If یاما is a set expression and means "a lot or many things", what evidence is there that it means this and what does the whole phrase کان یاما کان mean? None of the persons who were talking about this have any Persian background. So, they are unlikely to link it to Persian. I was merely expressing that this may be a possibility.

Alf Laila wa Laila is possibly linked to a book by the name of "Hazaar Afsaanah" (A Thousand Tales). So, it would not be surprising if یا had Persian origins. Persian stories begin with the formula یکے بود یکے نبود / یکی بود یکی نبود which literally means "There was someone, there was n't someone". Is this where کان ما کان formula came from or does یکی بود یکی نبود have its origins in  کان ما کان? Perhaps someone like fdb can help us regarding this matter.

ALF LAYLA WA LAYLA – Encyclopaedia Iranica


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## cherine

Qureshpor said:


> First part. 4th edition. 1994, page 993


I asked about the entry, not the page. My edition is different from yours, so I'm afraid the reference you gave isn't very helpful.
I looked the كان ما كان you mentioned under ك-ون and didn't find it.


> If یاما is a set expression and means "a lot or many things", what evidence is there that it means this and what does the whole phrase کان یاما کان mean?


Also in Hans Wehr (and I admit I only found this now) under the entry يا, you'll find this:
يا ما how much! how many! how often! how many times!
This is an interesting find, for me, because until now I thought it was a colloquial usage.

As for your last question, the whole phrase was already explained a couple of times in the previous posts, but to those who don't want to read 30 posts  it means there was, and oh how many things were, so and so...
Note that the common usage is to say كان يا ما كان and then كان يوجد/كان هناك (or كان في/فيه in colloquial). So, for example
كان يا ما كان، كان هناك صياد يعيش بجوار البحر
there was, and oh how many things there were, there was a fisherman who lived by the sea.
Or: there was a fisherman who lived by the sea, and oh how many things there were (in life, in stories...etc).


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## Qureshpor

^ Thank you Cherine.


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## cherine

You're welcome.


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