# uczyłem się ale nie nauczyłem się



## wolfbm1

Witam.

Jak można przetłumaczyć zdanie z czasownikiem niedokonanym i dokonanym?

Jak byłem dzieckiem uczyłem się pływać ale nie nauczyłem się.

When I was a child I learned how to swim but I didn't learn. Nie podoba mi się "I didn't learn". Może "I didn't master it." ??


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## Thomas1

Jest jakiś powód, z którego "I didn't learn" Ci się nie podoba? Ja bym coś dodał na końcu:

When I was a child I learned how to swim, but I didn't learn anything/much/a damn thing [inf.]/etc.

Oczywiście, 'master' też wchodzi w grę, ale ma nieco inne znaczenie: nauczyłeś się coś, ale nie opanowałeś pływania w stopniu, w jakim chciałeś.


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## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> Jest jakiś powód, z którego "I didn't learn" Ci się nie podoba? Ja bym coś dodał na końcu:
> 
> When I was a child I learned how to swim, but I didn't learn anything/much/a damn thing [inf.]/etc.
> 
> Oczywiście, 'master' też wchodzi w grę, ale ma nieco inne znaczenie: nauczyłeś się coś, ale nie opanowałeś pływania w stopniu, w jakim chciałeś.



Dziękuję. Chciałem właściwie powiedzieć, że uczęszczałem na kurs pływania jakiś czas ale w dalszym ciągu pływam po angielsku ...  To znaczy topię się. Niczego się nie nauczyłem. A więc "master" odpada całkowicie.

Zadałem takie samo pytanie na forum angielskim ale nie jestem pewien czy mnie zrozumieli. Bo chodzi mi o to, że to uczenie się trwało jakiś czas, nie było tylko próbą nauczenia się ale raczej chęcią nauczenia się. Niestety nauczyciel nie potrafił mnie nauczyć. Macham nogami w wodzie ale za chwilę idę na dno.

Mack zaproponował takie wyjście:
"When I was a child, I _tried to learn to swim, but I couldn't." = I had lessons, but I was unsuccessful, and I still cannot swim.
_Na internecie znalazłem podobne zdanie:
Mamaji tried to teach Pi’s parents how to swim, but they did not succeed.

A więc mógłbym powiedzieć:
When I was a child, I tried to learn how to swim but I didn't succeed.

Ale w dalszym ciągu nie jestem pewny czy "I tried to learn how to swim" oddaje sens "uczyłem się pływać" bo mogłoby to oznaczać, że próbowałem bez żadnej motywacji.
Może: When I was a child, I was learning how to swim but I didn't succeed.


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## LilianaB

"When I was a child I was trying to learn to swim, but I was not successful. (unfortunately I was not successful)"   


I am sorry, with the other scenario: "When I was a child I took swimming classes, but I never really learned (how) to swim."   

Some of your suggestions are Ok, too.


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## wolfbm1

Thank you, Liliana. So actually the word "try" conveys the imperfective aspect of "uczyłem się". 

I think I could also say: When I was a child I tried to learn to swim, but I was not successful. Although your version sounds better.

Now, what if I wanted to translate another couple of verbs, e.g. pisałem - nie napisałem. I would have to think of another way of expressing it.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I think so. English is a highly analytical language these days (more than synthetic), so many things have to be expressed semantically -- through words and phrases, rather than tenses.

Yes, your sentence is good too. 

As to the other examples, can you provide sentences with those verbs -- in Polish.


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## wolfbm1

O.K.

Wczoraj pisałem list do X ale go w końcu nie napisałem.

My try is:

Yesterday I tried to write a letter to X but in the end I didn't finish writing it.


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## LilianaB

You could say: Yesterday I started writing  a letter to X, but I did not finish it. (tried is Ok, too -- I think)


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## wolfbm1

Thank you, Liliana. 
"I started writing a letter to X" is close enough.


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## Thomas1

Wolf, jeśli chcesz znaleźć złoty środek na to, jak przełożyć polski aspekt dokonany i niedokonany, to niestety obawiam się, że szybko go nie znajdziesz. To swego rodzaju puszka Pandory dla Polaków uczących się angielskiego i Anglików polskiego. Nierzadko to, co nam się wydaje, że jest niedokonane i chcielibyśmy przetłumaczyć za pomocą past continuous, należy przetłumaczyć na angielski za pomocą past simple, albo, co już zostało zasugerowane, odpowiednim doborem słownictwa. 

Jakbyś przetłumaczył następujące zdania na polski z poniższego fragmentu (używając czasownika 'uczyć' i jego pochodnych):


> On growing up I learned Spanish at school but I didn't start to learn  the language until I was at secondary school.
> Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6578071





> I was first introduced to Kundalini yoga exercises at a school where I studied metaphysics, _but I didn't learn anything_ in depth at that time.
> Żródło





> My sister and I attended Saturday afternoon Mandarin classes. But I _didn't learn much_ from them.
> Źródło



*I learned French at school as a boy*


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## wolfbm1

Puszka Pandory to dobre określenie. Dziękuję za uwagi.



> On growing up I learned Spanish at school but I didn't start to learn the language until I was at secondary school.


Z tego co się dowiedziałem od Paula powinno być "I *studied* Spanish at school" ponieważ "I learned" znaczy, że się już nauczyłem. Chyba że fraza "on growing up" zmienia postać rzeczy.
A więc: Gdy dorastałem uczyłem się hiszpańskiego ale dopiero zacząłem uczyć się tego języka w szkole średniej.



> I was first introduced to Kundalini yoga exercises at a school where I studied metaphysics, _but I didn't learn anything in depth at that time._


Po raz pierwszy zapoznano mnie z ćwiczeniami jogi Kundalini w szkole, w której uczyłem się metafizyki, ale nie nauczyłem się niczego dogłębnie wtedy.



> My sister and I attended Saturday afternoon Mandarin classes. But I _didn't learn much from them._


Razem z moją siostrą uczęszczałem na popołudniowe zajęcia mandaryńskiego. Ale nie nauczyłem się wiele na nich.

Edit: Coś przeoczyłem: I learned French at school as a boy.   Nauczyłem się francuskiego w szkole gdy byłem chłopcem.


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## Thomas1

wolfbm1 said:


> Puszka Pandory to dobre określenie. Dziękuję za uwagi.
> 
> 
> Z tego co się dowiedziałem od Paula powinno być "I *studied* Spanish at school" ponieważ "I learned" znaczy, że się już nauczyłem. Chyba że fraza "on growing up" zmienia postać rzeczy.


Z informacji podanych na stronie wynika, że to zdanie napisał rodowity Anglik. Jak widać tłumaczeń, zrobionych przez Ciebie, rzeczywistość wygląda trochę inaczej (przy czym nie chcę tutaj podważać zdania rodowitego użytkownika angielskiego, bo z pewnością wie dużo lepiej jak funkcjonuje jego język). Może zapytaj też o to zdanie? Tak czy siak, w tym przypadku widać całkiem wyraźnie, że dana osoba się nie nauczyła. Ze zdania wynika, że uczyła się hiszpańskiego w szkole (=miała hiszpański w szkole). Sama fraza 'on growing up' jest funkcjonalnie jednakowa z twoim początkiem zdania 'when I was a child' (okolicznik czasu). Moim zdaniem samo 'I learned' z pewnością oznacza, że ktoś pobierał naukę czegoś. Jednak to czy się nauczył danej rzeczy nie jest równoważne z zakończeniem tej nauki. Tak naprawdę wynika to dopiero z kontekstu.


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## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> Z informacji podanych na stronie wynika, że to zdanie napisał rodowity Anglik. Jak widać tłumaczeń, zrobionych przez Ciebie, rzeczywistość wygląda trochę inaczej (przy czym nie chcę tutaj podważać zdania rodowitego użytkownika angielskiego, bo z pewnością wie dużo lepiej jak funkcjonuje jego język). Może zapytaj też o to zdanie? Tak czy siak, w tym przypadku widać całkiem wyraźnie, że dana osoba się nie nauczyła. Ze zdania wynika, że uczyła się hiszpańskiego w szkole (=miała hiszpański w szkole). Sama fraza 'on growing up' jest funkcjonalnie jednakowa z twoim początkiem zdania 'when I was a child' (okolicznik czasu). Moim zdaniem samo 'I learned' z pewnością oznacza, że ktoś pobierał naukę czegoś. Jednak to czy się nauczył danej rzeczy nie jest równoważne z zakończeniem tej nauki. Tak naprawdę wynika to dopiero z kontekstu.


Już wiem.  Po prostu źle zrozumiałem to zdanie. W szerszym kontekscie ma ono sens. A więc jeszcze raz:

_*Gdy dorastałem nauczyłem się hiszpańskiego* w szkole *ale nie* zacząłem się __uczyć __*wcześniej* tego języka *niż dopiero w szkole średniej*. To znaczy w wieku lat jedenastu. Ale obecnie zachęca się dzieci żeby *uczyli się* obcych języków w bardzo młodym wieku. ...._

Czyli pan Philip Neil Broadhead najpierw informuje nas, że nauczył się hiszpańskiego w szkole gdy dorastał a potem dodaje, że rozpoczął naukę tego języka dopiero w szkole średniej. Wydaje mi się, że pierwsze "w szkole" wprowadza trochę w błąd. 

Co ciekawe wyraz *learn* oznacza *uczyć się* w czasie terażniejszym, ponieważ w tym czasie nie można stosować czasowników w formie dokonanej.

Szerszy kontekst:
"On growing up I *learned* Spanish at school but I *didn't start to learn* the language until I was at secondary school. That's at the age of eleven. But, nowadays children are being encouraged to *learn* foreign languages at an early age. In Spain and France children start to learn English as well as their mother tongue as soon as they are at school."
Article Source: http://ezinearticles.com/6578071


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## Thomas1

Wydaje mi się, że dla przetłumaczenia "learn" w czasie przeszłym można zastosować obie wersje (nauczyłem się i uczyłem się).
Jeśli mamy na przykład takie zdanie: Today we learnt how to use the new software.
Rozbudujmy je dla lepszego zobrazowania problemu: Today we learnt how to use the new software, then we learnt what to do in emergency cases and at the end we learnt about Polish law.1. Dziś uczyliśmy się jak używać nowe oprogramowanie, później uczyliśmy się co robić w sytuacjach zagrożenia i na koniec uczyliśmy się o polskim prawie. 
2. Dziś nauczyliśmy się jak używać nowe oprogramowanie, później nauczyliśmy się co robić w sytuacjach zagrożenia i na koniec uczyliśmy się o polskim prawie.​ Różnica między tymi dwoma zdaniami polega na tym, że 1 skupia się bardziej o tym, co robiliśmy (wymieniamy czynności), a 2 na efekcie tego, co robiliśmy (skutki). Przy czym 'we learnt about Polish law' moim zdaniem można przetłumaczyć raczej tylko za pomocą 'uczyliśmy się o polskim prawie'* i pierwsze zdanie jest z mojego doświadczenia opcją, którą Polacy normalnie wybierają opowiadając co wydarzyło się w tego typu sytuacjach. Tryb dokonany brzmi czasami dość nienaturalnie w takich przypadkach (co nie znaczy, że jest z nim coś nie tak gramatycznie).

*w przypadku 'nauczyliśmy się' zastosowałbym jakiś okolicznik stopnia, np. trochę, dużo itd.


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## wolfbm1

Rzeczywiście tryb dokonany nie brzmi tutaj najlepiej.  Tylko problem z tym, że dla wielu Anglików "learnt" kojarzy się z czymś dokonanym, z tego co zrozumiałem. 
Paperclip napisał:
To study a subject is to apply oneself with the ultimate goal of accummulating some knowledge about the thing (whatever it may be.) In contrast, to learn implies that all the available knowledge about the thing has been acquired. It follows then that a person studies any given subject in order to learn about it. 

In your case, to say "I have learned Spanish" implies that I know everything there is to know about the language. To say "I am studying/have studied Spanish" implies that I have made an effort, acquired some knowledge, but I have not accummulated all the information that exists about Spanish.  Źródło: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=249367

(Chociaż dalej Panjandrum nie bardzo się z nim zgadzał.) Ciekawy jestem czy ktoś podejmie ten temat na forum angielskim.
Redakcja: Wydaje mi się też, że za bardzo przyzwyczajeni jesteśmy do używania słowa "learn" tam gdzie moglibyśmy używać słowo "studied".


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## LilianaB

_Learn_ has also the aspect of memorizing, as opposed to studying. _Yesterday we were learning new words and phrases_ -- not studying.


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> _Learn_ has also the aspect of memorizing, as opposed to studying. _Yesterday we were learning new words and phrases_ -- not studying.


I don't quite understand that aspect. We *were* *memorizing* means zapamiętywaliśmy* and We *were learning* means uczyliśmy się - not zapamiętywaliśmy.
We *were* *learning* new words* by heart*. = Uczyliśmy się nowych słów na pamięć.

I put: "we were studying new words" "phrases" in "in context" feature and I got: "S: Well, I remember that _we were studying new words_,"

* zapamięt|ać pf - zapamięt|ywać impf, vt 1. ... (nauczyć się na pamięć) to memorize [tekst, numer, nazwisko] Source: PWN-OXFORD dictionary


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## Thomas1

> 3 [transitive] learn something to study and repeat something in order to be able to remember it*
> Synonym*
> memorize
> We have to learn one of Hamlet's speeches for school tomorrow.
> Źródło


Po polsku też to mamy:
Musimy się nauczyć mów Hamleta na jutro do szkoły.
W tym znaczeniu mówi się też "nauczyć się na pamięć/blachę" (learn something by heart/rote).

Po przemyśleniu tematu, wydaje mi się, że jednak najczęściej po angielsku powiemy: "I studied French at school." w znaczeniu "W szkole uczyłem się francuskiego." (Miałem francuski w szkole.) i "I learnt French at school." (Nauczyłem się francuskiego w szkole.). To jest jednak bardzo ogólne i z pewnością znajdzie się wiele przykładów będących "wyjątkami" od tej "reguły" (por. np. komentarz Panjandruma).


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## LilianaB

wolfbm1 said:


> I don't quite understand that aspect. We *were* *memorizing* means zapamiętywaliśmy* and We *were learning* means uczyliśmy się - not zapamiętywaliśmy.
> We *were* *learning* new words* by heart*. = Uczyliśmy się nowych słów na pamięć.
> 
> I put: "we were studying new words" "phrases" in "in context" feature and I got: "S: Well, I remember that _we were studying new words_,"
> 
> * zapamięt|ać pf - zapamięt|ywać impf, vt 1. ... (nauczyć się na pamięć) to memorize [tekst, numer, nazwisko] Source: PWN-OXFORD dictionary



Hi, Wolf. I don't think you _study new words_, unless you are a theoretical linguist stydying the morphology of words. Language learners _learn words_ (they _memorize them_). I am sorry, I don't know how this would relate to Polish words, since I hardly ever use bilingual dictionaries. _Learn_ is not only _uczyć się_ -- it has a much broader range of meanings, in my opinion, one of the meanings being _to memorize_ (words, names). Anyone can also study words, of course -- if they are dividing them into prefixes, roots and suffixes. How else would you study words? You can study their etymology, phonology. If you are trying to remember what they mean -- you _learn them_.


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Wolf. I don't think you _study new words_, unless you are a theoretical linguist stydying the morphology of words. Language learners _learn words_ (they _memorize them_). I am sorry, I don't know how this would relate to Polish words, since I hardly ever use bilingual dictionaries. _Learn_ is not only _uczyć się_ -- it has a much broader range of meanings, in my opinion, one of the meanings being _to memorize_ (words, names). Anyone can also study words, of course -- if they are dividing them into prefixes, roots and suffixes. How else would you study words? You can study their etymology, phonology. If you are trying to remember what they mean -- you _learn them_.



So, there is a difference between learning new words and studying new words. They may look interchangeable but in fact they are not, as in the following: 
*"Study new vocabulary
*When I ask students how they learn vocabulary, they often say ‘by reading’ or ‘by watching TV’. It’s not what I mean. It’s true you can learn new words when you read or listen, but you should also study new words seriously. " Then different ways of studying words are listed: *Make flashcards**, **Record the words onto a tape or CD or MP3, Make sentences with the new words ... * Source  I think "studying" entails manipulating something and "learning" entails understanding something.


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## LilianaB

Yes, there is definitely a difference between "learning words", and "studying words". "Learning" is just memorizing them -- getting to know their meaning. "Studying them" -- is finding out about their structure, etymology, changes over the ages, and things of that kind.


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## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> Po polsku też to mamy:
> Musimy się nauczyć mów Hamleta na jutro do szkoły.
> W tym znaczeniu mówi się też "nauczyć się na pamięć/blachę" (learn something by heart/rote).


Rzeczywiście. Nawet znalazłem podobny tekst:
"Mam na jutro nauczyć się 30 linijek wiersza. Nie umiem nic. Wiersz nie jest taką rymowanką to fragment "Pana Tadeusza". "
A więc niekoniecznie trzeba dodawać "by heart".


> Po przemyśleniu tematu, wydaje mi się, że jednak najczęściej po angielsku powiemy: "I studied French at school." w znaczeniu "W szkole uczyłem się francuskiego."


Też tak to teraz rozumię. PaulQ by dodał:

I have tried to learn French at school.
I had a go at learning French at school.
I attempted to learn French at school.

Tylko, że tutaj chodzi jednak o próbę nabycia sprawności we władaniu językiem francuskim.
Podczas gdy wyraz study odnosi się chyba do samego procesu, tzn. odrabianie zadań, analizowanie różnic, podobieństw.

I took French at school.  albo I did French at school. też znaczy Uczyłem się francuskiego.

Wyjątki to prawdopodobnie użycie learn w czasie teraźniejszym, np. Why do we learn history? Dlaczego uczymy się historii? = Why do we acquire knowledge in history and understand its relevance to our lives?
Chociaż chyba powinno być: Why do we study history? to też  Dlaczego uczymy się historii? = Why do we spend time reading e.g. Norman Davies' God's Playground?


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## LilianaB

You could say, _I was learning French in school_ (instead of _studying_) but it would sound more colloquial. Many people, especially less formal, would use _learn_ in this context, or simply I had French in school. If you want to teach your students so that they pass language exams, it is better to use study in this context -- with language, but not with learning words. _Learn_ has more of the quality of acquire (acquire knowledge or skill, rather than analyze).


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> If you want to teach your students so that they pass language exams, it is better to use study in this context -- with language, but not with learning words. _Learn_ has more of the quality of acquire (acquire knowledge or skill, rather than analyze).


Thank you for your remarks, Liliana. 
I think the word *study* can be used while giving instructions to the students.
Usually new words and expressions are taught prior to reading a text or at the beginning of a unit. A teacher might say:

"We are going to *study* *new words* and expressions today. They will help us understand the text below." Then the students look at a box with new words, e.g. tool, nuclear, speech, medicine, spending, argument, economic, solar, brain, influence, world, political, people, army, consumer, and decide which words can collocate with power and which ones can collocate powerful. An example: power: power tool, powerful: a powerful tool. Then they answer questions with new expressions containing the word power, e.g. Should more women be in position of power?, Who holds the power in your family, school, workplace? (Source: New Total English Advanced, page 77) I think all those activities are about first *studying* the words and then using them in sentences. And by the end of a lesson students should have *learned *a lot.
What do you think of that?


> You could say, _I was learning French in school (instead of studying) but it would sound more colloquial. Many people, especially less formal, would use learn in this context, or simply I had French in school._



Thank you for mentioning that. I've been tempted to use the past continuous to express the imperfective aspect but I'm not sure if that's the right avenue.

The past continuous is normally used to emphasise that an activity is in progress at a specific time or as a background for another past action. Actually I found an interesting sentence in Hewings' Advanced Grammar in Use: 


> "When I *was learning/learned* to drive I was living with my parents."


Then Martin Hewings explains:
*"Was learning *emphasises that the activity was in progress ('I had lessons during this time') and *learned* emphasises completion ('I passed my test during this time')."
I don't think I could say:
When I had a go at learning how to drive I was living with my parents. ???

When I had my driving lessons I was living with my parents, sounds better.


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## LilianaB

You can also say: _I kept learning French for years_, _but I finally gave up_. I think the Past Continuous can be used to indicate a repetitive action.


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## wolfbm1

That's a good idea.  Kept expresses continuity and means stale, ciągle. 
I think I could say I kept learning to swim for some time, but finally I gave up.


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## Thomas1

"study words" można rozumieć jako "przeanalizować/zanalizować/analizować/zbadać słowa". Chociaż nie jestem do końca przekonany, czy na przykład przeciętny dziesięciolatek użyłby tego akurat sformułowania.

Jeśli chodzi o wyjątki, to zobacz następujące zdanie:


> Jeff used to learn French, but now he learns Spanish instead.
> Źródło


albo to:





> He used to learn French and German from my governess, and spoke fluently in German with me and in the schoolroom, where he usually prepared his Greek and Latin also.
> Źródło


Zastanawiam się czy dodanie 'used to', które nadaje niuans regularności, zmienia postać rzeczy.


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## LilianaB

I would not use _used to_, in this context.  It does not tell you anything about the result -- just that he was doing it, sometime in the past.


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## Thomas1

Well, that's what 'uczyć się' in the past tense means.


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## LilianaB

_Used to_ has a different use, usually -- it is hard to explain it. _I used to jog every morning_, I_ used to eat ice-cream in_ _winter_, _I used to walk barefoot_. It just does not sound good to me in this context. _I used to study English for an_ _hour everyday_ -- would sound Ok.


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## Thomas1

All the sentences you wrote up would be translated with the past tense of the imperfective aspect into Polish. As far as I know 'used to' expresses past routine. Someone did something usually in the past, but they habitually don't do it in the present anymore. Is there anything in the sentences quoted (with 'used to learn') that means more, or less, than that? Or is it again the situation in which 'learn' is not used? (At least on a common basis, because there are some examples of this use.)


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## LilianaB

I am not sure, Thomas, exactly what you mean. The construction "used to" indicates a habitual activity in the past-- something that is not done anymore. It does not really indicate any kind of purpose -- as in _I tried to learn English_, for example, _but I did not succeed_.


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## Thomas1

LilianaB said:


> I am not sure, Thomas, exactly what you mean. The construction "used to" indicates a habitual activity in the past-- something that is not done anymore.


This is what I was talking about. Also, this is what the Polish sentence "Uczyłem się X." conveys as well.





> It does not really indicate any kind of purpose -- as in _I tried to learn English_, for example, _but I did not succeed_.


I'm not quite clear I udnerstand you here, Liliana. Anyway, there is no such indication in the Polish sentence either. Hence my question when you said that 'used to' didn't quite fit in with the verb 'learn'.
In Polish, if someone says "W szkole uczyłem się angielskiego." there is also no indication about the result, it is a statement that someone had English class at school (we don't know whether this person succeeded in learning it or not).

EDIT: I'd most probably say 'I used to study English at school.' or 'I studied English at school'. We don't say 'I learned English at school.' to mean 'I studied English at school.' (W szkole uczyłem się angielskiego). Now, the question is: does 'used to' as in 'I used to learn English at school.' mean 'I studied/had/took up English at school.'? If not what does it mean?


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## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> "study words" można rozumieć jako "przeanalizować/zanalizować/analizować/zbadać słowa".



Takie jest właściwie angielskie znaczenie słowa study. Tylko, że tłumacząc np. zdanie: 





> We *are going to **study *new words and expressions today.


użyjemy słowa uczyć się a nie analizować, albo badać. A więc: Dzisiaj *będziemy* *uczyć się* nowych słów. Nie: Dzisiaj nauczymy się nowych słów.

Dzisiaj *nauczymy się* nowych słów to: 





> Today we *are going to* *learn *new words.



Poza tym istnieje sformułowanie:  to study for an exam = uczyć się do egzaminu, w znaczeniu powtarzać (revise).

Ale też jestem ciekawy czy przeciętny dziesięciolatek użyłby sformułowania z użyciem słowa study.



> Zastanawiam się czy dodanie 'used to', które nadaje niuans regularności, zmienia postać rzeczy.



Też się zastanawiam. Used to rownież informuje nas, że już teraz czegoś "nie mamy zwyczaju" robić.

Jednak znalazłem ciekawe zdanie: "I never *used to learn* to swim before this is my first time, I think if I've decided to live here, I think I have to," says Ms Nikolic." Źródło: Artykuł Katriny Yu, SBS "Migrants learn to swim." Czyli: Nigdy przedtem nie* uczyłem* się pływać. To mój pierwszy raz ... "

Ciekawe czy można powiedzieć: When I was a boy I used to learn to swim but I couldn't. Jeżeli można, to zdanie to zawsze informuje nas, że uczenie się pływać było zwyczajem i że teraz takiego zwyczaju nie ma.

Podobnie jest ze zdaniem: "When I was a boy, I was learning how to swim, but I was unsuccessful." Informuje nas coś odbywało sie w sposób postępujący. 

Wydaje mi się jednak, że użycie słowa try nie wciąga nas w powyższe problemy. Ciekawe, co by było gdyby zamiast to *learn* użyć learning:

When I was young, I *tried learning* how to swim, but I couldn't / I was unsuccessful / it never caught on.


----------



## Thomas1

> użyjemy słowa uczyć się a nie analizować, albo badać. A więc: Dzisiaj *będziemy* *uczyć się* nowych słów. Nie: Dzisiaj nauczymy się nowych słów.


Właśnie z tego powodu pisałem, że dziesięciolatek raczej nie użyje słów 'analizować' i 'badać', 'uczyć' się jest dużo bardziej prawdopodobne. 

try doing something ma znaczenie bardziej podobne do spróbować coś zrobić= zobaczyć, czy, na przykład, to rozwiązanie będzie dobre:
A: I can't use my laptop, it won't start!
B: Try plugging it into the socket, perhaps the battery's gone flat.


----------



## LilianaB

Hi, Wolf and Thomas. I don't really have that much time to analyze all of that, but I would just want to point out that a ten year old child will use whatever words his language teacher uses, unless he is told otherwise at home. People are not born with language -- they acquire it through the interaction with the environment -- they are not born with the unabridged copy of an Oxford Dictionary in their heads, so the children will use whatever their teachers, or parents use. I would definitely use the word _learn_ in refrence to memorizing new words in Teaching English as a Second Language. And to avoid confusion, I think it might be better to consult just texbooks issued by prestigious institutions in English speaking countries. May books have really anything, in them. "I never used to learn to swim" sounds slightly odd to me.


----------



## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Wolf and Thomas. ... I would definitely use the word _learn_ in refrence to memorizing new words in Teaching English as a Second Language. ...


I think that before learning (or memorizing) new words can take place you have to study how they are used first. You cannot memorize or learn them by heart without having created some sort of associations in your brain.
Here is what Giorgio Spizzi said:


> I would also add that if learning is gaining knowledge of a subject or skill, that can happen through being taught (which implies studying) or by self-teaching (which implies studying); then there's experience, of course.
> In other words my impression is that _studying comes first, then (hopefully) learning, and consequently knowing._


 Source.



> And to avoid confusion, I think it might be better to consult just texbooks issued by prestigious institutions in English speaking countries.


It's easier said than done. You reside in an English speaking country and have better access to them, for example in libraries. I have studied English grammar in a lot of books written by English authors, but I have never come across the uczyłem/nienauczyłem issue.



> "I never used to learn to swim" sounds slightly odd to me.


After thinking it over I came to conclusion that the person didn't use to learn to swim in the past but now he has swimming lessons.


----------



## LilianaB

Well, form a philosophical point of view perhaps, however, it might just be a collocation that you l_earn words (songs, poems)_-- _learn 100_ new words a day for example (ads like that are easy to be found), _learn names of_ _animals_, _flowers_, _learn colors_. It is hard for me to explain it, but it just does not sound good with _study_. The same thing with the _used to_ -- in logical term, perhaps -- it could be expressed by the Polish past tense, but it just does not sound right with _trying to learn something_. _I used to try learning French, but nothing came out of it_? I don't think it sounds right.  Is the book you are quoting from published in England, or in another English-speaking  country, or is it a Polish textbook?


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> Well, form a philosophical point of view perhaps, however, it might just be a collocation that you l_earn words (songs, poems)_-- _learn 100_ new words a day for example (ads like that are easy to be found), _learn names of_ _animals_, _flowers_, _learn colors_. It is hard for me to explain it, but it just does not sound good with _study_.


I think you are right.
I can never *learn* (*nauczyć się*) the proper pronunciation of "turquoise" and "tortoise", although I have tried a lot of times. Probably I haven't *studied* (*analizowałem/studiowałem*) their pronunciation well enough or long enough. 

And the instruction: '*Study* these words' or 'Study these examples' cannot mean '*Ucz się* tych słów/przykładów. 
You have to use other words, e.g.
*Przyjrzyj się* tym słowom/przykładom. 

Maybe the word *study* shouldn't be translated in dictionaries as *uczyć się* to avoid confusion. PWN-OXFORD says: 
"study vi
(learn, revise) uczyć się; to study for an exam uczyć się do egzaminu"

Maybe it should be translated as "*powtarzać*" only. 


> The same thing with the _used to_ -- in logical term, perhaps -- it could be expressed by the Polish past tense, but it just does not sound right with _trying to learn something_. _I used to try learning French, but nothing came out of it_? I don't think it sounds right. Is the book you are quoting from published in England, or in another English-speaking country, or is it a Polish textbook?



No it doesn't. But I don't remember saying that sentence. Did I say it at some point? 
I remember quoting Paul: "I have tried to learn French at school."


----------



## LilianaB

You can _learn the pronunciation_ by saying a _turquoise tortoise_ ten times every morning. (just a joke)


----------



## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> You can _learn the pronunciation_ by saying a _turquoise tortoise_ ten times every morning. (just a joke)


That's a great idea!  I'm going to write the words on a piece of paper and stick it to the mirror.


----------



## Thomas1

wolfbm1 said:


> [...]
> And the instruction: '*Study* these words' or 'Study these examples' cannot mean '*Ucz się* tych słów/przykładów.
> You have to use other words, e.g.
> *Przyjrzyj się* tym słowom/przykładom.
> 
> Maybe the word *study* shouldn't be translated in dictionaries as *uczyć się* to avoid confusion. PWN-OXFORD says:
> "study vi
> (learn, revise) uczyć się; to study for an exam uczyć się do egzaminu"
> 
> Maybe it should be translated as "*powtarzać*" only.
> [...]


I think that would be a bit too drastic. A dictionary will give you very often some equivalents, but it's by no means the ultimate source for people who translate a text. Usually, a dictionary gives the equivalents that the lexicographer found the most frequent during his or her work. I think 'study' can be translated as 'uczyć się' in many contexts, but there are many in which it will be translated by a different word/construction, your '*Przyjrzyj się* tym słowom/przykładom.' is a point in case here.


----------



## wolfbm1

Uważam, że słownikarze mają talent do wprowadzania ludzi w błąd, jeżeli
study for an exam = uczyć się do egzaminu 
i learn for an exam = uczyć się do egzaminu

to dlaczego

_I studied for an exam_ = Uczyłem się do egzaminu
 i _I learnt for an exam_ = Nauczyłem się do egzaminu

albo dlaczego można powiedzieć
_She studied for that exam ~ not that she actually learnt anything, mind you. 
_A nie
_She learnt for that exam ~ not that she actually learnt anything, mind you. _
Porównaj.

Wydaje mi się, że _study for an exam _powinno być przetłumaczone jako 'przygotowywać się do egzaminu'.

A jak byś prztłumaczył, szanowny kolego, takie zdanie:

Woda była ciepła, i uczyłam się pływać, ale się nie nauczyłam!! Tylko się topiłam! To dopiero były wakacje.


----------



## Thomas1

'przygotowywać się do egzaminu można przetłumaczyć też jako 'prepare for an exam'. Inna sprawa, że 'uczenie się do egzaminu' jest częścią przygotowania się do niego, które może zawierać też na przykład: zebranie przyborów do pisania, przygotowanie odpowiedniego sprzętu (np.: rzutnik, komputer itd.), czy choćby zakup wody albo chusteczek higienicznych. Moim zdaniem, 'study for an exam' raczej nie konotuje innych czynności poza 'uczeniem się', ale nie mówię, że przetłumaczenie go poprzez czasownik 'przygotowywać się' byłoby błędem.

Jak przetłumaczyć 'uczyć się do egzaminu'?

Jeśli chodzi o słownikarzy, to może mogliby zawierać więcej przykładów, które pokazywałyby różnice pomiędzy danymi leksemami i/lub potencjalne trudności, na jakie użytkownik danego języka może trafić. 

Co do zdania, o które pytasz, to z innych wątków wiadomo, że 'study' raczej w kontekście pływania się nie powie, zwłaszcza jeśli mówimy tu o praktycznej nauce._ The water was warm, so I tried to learn to swim*, but I didn't succeed. I was always going under water.
_​*albo 'learn swimming', żeby nie powtarzać 'to'.


----------



## LeTasmanien

LilianaB said:


> "When I was a child I was trying to learn to swim, but I was not successful.... "



Liliana this is not right.
You should write "When I was a child I tried to learn to swim, but I was not successful...."
if you want to convey the sense of continuous action in the past then
"When I was a child I used to try to learn to swim, but I was not successful....


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## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> O.K.
> 
> Wczoraj pisałem list do X ale go w końcu nie napisałem.
> 
> My try is:
> 
> Yesterday I tried to write a letter to X but in the end I didn't finish writing it.



This is fine but you don't need to repeat the verb;
Yesterday I tried to write a letter to X but in the end I didn't finish it.


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## LeTasmanien

LilianaB said:


> You could say: Yesterday I started writing  a letter to X, but I did not finish it. (tried is Ok, too -- I think)


OK


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thomas1 said:


> On growing up I learned Spanish at school but I didn't start to learn  the language until I was at secondary school.


Doesn't make sense.
If you learned it previously how could you start to learn it later?


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thomas1 said:


> Today we learnt [sic] how to use the new software, then we learnt what to do in emergency cases and at the end we learnt about Polish law.


This is an American expression of the verb, and I suspect a colloquial one too. Instead suggest use "we learned" as better English.


----------



## LeTasmanien

LilianaB said:


> You could say, _I was learning French in school_ (instead of _studying_) but it would sound more colloquial.


Again the past perfect is very much more correct "I learned..."

As a matter of fact I did actually learn French at school. If I was referring to this I would use the more passive expression
"I was taught French at school".
(I agree with what someone else who said that "I learned French" implies that there is no more work remaining to be done with that language!)
I would tend to reserve the use of "study" for tertiary or adult education, eg
Later I went on to study French Literature at the university of Pierre et Marie Curie in Paris.


----------



## LeTasmanien

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Wolf and Thomas. I don't really have that much time to analyze all of that, but I would just want to point out that a ten year old child will use whatever words his language teacher uses, unless he is told otherwise at home. People are not born with language -- they acquire it through the interaction with the environment -- they are not born with the unabridged copy of an Oxford Dictionary in their heads, so the children will use whatever their teachers, or parents use. I would definitely use the word _learn_ in refrence to memorizing new words in Teaching English as a Second Language. And to avoid confusion, I think it might be better to consult just texbooks issued by prestigious institutions in English speaking countries. May books have really anything, in them. "I never used to learn to swim" sounds slightly odd to me.


Agreed.


----------



## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> I think that before learning (or memorizing) new words can take place you have to study how they are used first. You cannot memorize or learn them by heart without having created some sort of associations in your brain.


All well and good Wolf but in English we talk about people learning words rather than studying words.


----------



## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> All well and good Wolf but in English we talk about people learning words rather than studying words.


What do you mean?
When do you learn words?
When do you study words?


----------



## wolfbm1

Post 51 





LeTasmanien said:


> Agreed.



  What is wrong with this: "I never *used to learn* to swim before; this is my first time."
Should it be just: "I *didn't use to learn* to swim before; this is my first time."


----------



## Thomas1

LeTasmanien said:


> Thomas1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> On growing up I learned Spanish at school but I  didn't start to learn  the language until I was at secondary  school.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't make sense.
> If you learned it previously how could you start to learn it later?
Click to expand...

Just to point one thing: the sentence comes from this article and was written by this guy. 
As to the meaning, I think that Wolf nailed the meaning down in one of his posts, where he said that the person did learn Spanish at school, but they hadn't done it before starting secondary school -- or words to that effect.



LeTasmanien said:


> This is an American expression of the verb, and I suspect a colloquial one too. Instead suggest use "we learned" as better English.


It is, in fact, British.


----------



## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> Co do zdania, o które pytasz, to z innych wątków wiadomo, że 'study' raczej w kontekście pływania się nie powie, zwłaszcza jeśli mówimy tu o praktycznej nauce._ The water was warm, so I tried to learn to swim*, but I didn't succeed. I was always going under water.
> _​*albo 'learn swimming', żeby nie powtarzać 'to'.


Ja myślałem o trochę innym tłumaczeniu z użyciem zaproponowanego przez Lilianę słowa 'keep':
_The water was warm, so I tried learning how to swim, but I didn't/couldn't. I just kept drowning._


----------



## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> What do you mean?
> When do you learn words?
> When do you study words?



Hey Wolf,
I am trying to learn Polish and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions.

In my case I would not use the expression, "I am studying Polish words".
In my experience I have never heard anyone say that they are studying words.

When you think about "study", think about a body of knowledge eg I studied physics at the University of New England.
We learn words as we learn poems. Something to be memorized "by heart" as someone else said previously. 

Cheers
Phil.


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thomas1 said:


> Just to point one thing: the sentence comes from this article and was written by this guy.
> As to the meaning, I think that Wolf nailed the meaning down in one of his post, where he said that the person did learn Spanish at school, but they hadn't done it before starting secondary school -- or words to that effect.


I see where you are coming from now. The sentence is a little ambiguous, suggest could be more clearly expressed.



Thomas1 said:


> It is, in fact, British.



I don't follow you. What is "British"?


----------



## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> Post 51
> 
> What is wrong with this: "I never *used to learn* to swim before; this is my first time."
> Should it be just: "I *didn't use to learn* to swim before; this is my first time."



Just simply,"I have never learned to swim. This is the first time I have done so"


----------



## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> I am trying to learn Polish and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions.


I wish you the best success in your endeavors.

By the way, could you also say:

I am learning Polish (these days) and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions.



> In my case I would not use the expression, "I am studying Polish words".
> In my experience I have never heard anyone say that they are studying words.


Do you mean that you have never studied examples of Polish sentences, containing new vocabulary?


----------



## Thomas1

LeTasmanien said:


> [...]
> I don't follow you. What is "British"?


'learnt' is typical to British English, whereas 'learned' to American English (and to Australian judging by your answer). It is not to say that 'learned' doesn't exist in British variety of English, because it's been around too. The article I linked to in my previous post explains that.


----------



## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> By the way, could you also say:
> 
> I am learning Polish (these days) and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> wolfbm1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean that you have never studied examples of Polish sentences, containing new vocabulary?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do this often. For example, I take a lot of Polish language material from this forum and try to dissect it.
> Again I see this as a rather low level "learning" exercise.
> To use the verb "study" in this instance might seem, to the English speaker, as perhaps a little pretentious.
> Cheers
> Phil
Click to expand...


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thomas1 said:


> 'learnt' is typical to British English, whereas 'learned' to American English (and to Australian judging by your answer). It is not to say that 'learned' doesn't exist in British variety of English, because it's been around too. The article I linked to in my previous post explains that.



You may be right Thomas.
I have never heard it used though and I was educated in the British Grammar School system.

I am sure that I have seen this usage in Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer but don't remember seeing it in modern English Literature, but ready to be corrected on this.

Cheers
Phil


----------



## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> Yes, I do this often. For example, I take a lot of Polish language material from this forum and try to dissect it.


So, you do study Polish sentences, and often at that. You even try to dissect them. (By the way, have you heard of David Snopek's method of learning Polish.)


> To use the verb "study" in this instance might seem, to the English speaker, as perhaps a little pretentious.


Let me quote from PRACTICE AND PROGRESS by L. G. Alexander, page 86:
Now *study* these sentences carefully: ...

_He hasn't got as much_ work to do _as_ I have.   <and>  _He's got less _work to do _than_ I have. ..."
Does that sound pretentious?


----------



## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> wolfbm1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, could you also say:
> 
> I am learning Polish (these days) and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions. /QUOTE]
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a big difference difference between these two sentences. In the other one you use the word 'try':
> 
> 
> 
> I am trying to learn Polish and my method is simply to learn Polish words and expressions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am asking because I learned that I can only express the uncompleted aspect of 'uczyłem się' by using the word "try" or similar.
> Let me quote my new, but similar example:
> (_Woda była ciepła, i *uczyłam się* pływać, ale się nie nauczyłam!! Tylko się topiłam!_)
> =
> _The water was warm, so I *tried learning* how to swim, but I didn't/couldn't. I just kept drowning._
Click to expand...


----------



## Thomas1

LeTasmanien said:


> You may be right Thomas.
> I have never heard it used though and I was educated in the British Grammar School system.
> 
> I am sure that I have seen this usage in Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer but don't remember seeing it in modern English Literature, but ready to be corrected on this.
> 
> Cheers
> Phil


Hi, Phil,

I've looked it up Twain's book available at gutenberg.org, and here is what I've found out:
learnt -- 1 example
learned -- 7 examples

This is the sentence containing 'learnt':





> The smoke had an unpleasant taste,       and they gagged a little, but Tom said:                 "Why, it's just as easy! If I'd a knowed this was all, I'd a learnt long       ago."


Judging by the sentence itself, I'm inclined to believe it was done for effect. 


wolfbm1 said:


> So, you do study Polish sentences, and often at that. You even try to dissect them. (By the way, have you heard of David Snopek's method of learning Polish.)
> 
> Let me quote from PRACTICE AND PROGRESS by L. G. Alexander, page 86:
> Now *study* these sentences carefully: ...
> 
> _He hasn't got as much_ work to do _as_ I have.   <and>  _He's got less _work to do _than_ I have. ..."
> Does that sound pretentious?


Wolf, I think this is in the same vane as what I alluded to while we were discussing possible translations for 'study' into Polish. If a ten-ear old says 'dzisiaj w szkole zbadaliśmy tłumaczenia słowa 'study' na polski', it does come across to many Polish native spekers as a bit too advanced for his or her age (even though this might well have been what they used at school), because usually this is what you expect from a linguist, for instance.


----------



## wolfbm1

Miałem na myśli rozumienie wyrażenia 'study sentences' jako porównywania, patrzenia się na przykłady zdań.
Nie myślę, żeby nauczyciel używał słowa 'study' przy wydawaniu poleceń w klasie z 10-latkami. Można przecież użyć innych słów. Ale mógłby użyć tego słowa z licealistami. Oni z kolei swoim rodzicom powiedzą, że uczyli się nowego słownictwa. Gdyby padło pytanie jak to robili, wtedy by mogli odpowiedzieć używając słowa 'study', np. First we studied some pictures and then we studied six example sentences.


----------



## Thomas1

To zdanie:


> Jeff used to learn French, but now he learns Spanish instead.
> Źródło


nie jest poprawne.

To:


> He used to learn French and German from my governess, and spoke  fluently in German with me and in the schoolroom, where he usually  prepared his Greek and Latin also.
> Źródło


raczej jest (zob.: used to learn).


----------



## wolfbm1

Dziękuję.
Przeczytałem szerszy kontekst zdania:
He used to learn French and German from my governess, and spoke fluently in German with me and in the schoolroom, where he usually prepared his Greek and Latin also.

He used to learn German from my governess. = (Regularnie) uczył się niemieckiego od mojej guwernantki.

(Teraz już tego nie robi albo nie może robić) 

He used to learn German from my governess. = He would learn German from my governess. Są to wspomnienia jego siostry. (reminiscence)

He *used to be learning French and German from my governess, and spoke fluently in German with me *

kłóci się z 'spoke.' 
He *used to be learning French and German from my governess, and used to be speaking fluently in German with me -* już lepiej. 

(N*ow he isn't learning anything.)*

W sumie zarówno 'He *used to be learning' *jak i 'He used to learn' znaczy, że uczył się i jest to tryb niedokonany.

Użycie formy ciągłej niczego w zasadzie nie zmienia, podkreśla tylko, że podmiot był w toku uczenią się.

Myślę, że mógłbym powiedzieć: When I was young, I used to learn how to swim, and although I was not successful, at least I tried.
------------

Korekta: Właśnie się dowiedziałem od Cliffyboya, że wariant ze 'spoke' brzmi lepiej, bo mówi nam, że podmiot odniósł sukces w uczeniu się jak mówoć po niemiecku. Użycie konstrukcji *used to be speaking fluently in German *powoduje, że może się wydawać, że podmiot już nie mówi płynnie w tym języku. (Chociaż wydaje mi sie, że już nie żyje, jeśli dobrze zrozumiałem szerszy kontekst.) Dodał, że wersja z czasem ciągłym nie jest zła, ale w tej sytuacji powiedziałby oryginalne zdanie: He used to learn ...


----------



## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> LeTasmanien said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a big difference difference between these two sentences. In the other one you use the word 'try':
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Wolf,
> Many thanks for that nice PM and the offer to help me learn Polish. I need all the help I can get!
> 
> To answer your question,
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I learned to speak Italian ==> some degree of success
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I tried to learn to speak Italian ==> a more modest expression implying more difficulty and possibly less success
> 
> Cheers
> Phil.
Click to expand...


----------



## LeTasmanien

Thomas1 said:


> Hi Phil,
> I've looked it up Twain's book available at gutenberg.org, and here is what I've found out:
> learnt -- 1 example
> learned -- 7 examples
> 
> This is the sentence containing 'learnt':                                                         The smoke had an unpleasant taste,       and they gagged a little,  but Tom said:                 "Why, it's just as easy! If I'd a knowed  this was all, I'd a learnt long       ago."
> 
> 
> Judging by the sentence itself, I'm inclined to believe it was done for effect.



Hi Thomas,
The quote you give above makes me think I may have been correct to some degree. That is it's more of a colloquial expression from the US, as spoken by simple folks with little education. But I was interested to read your link to that English page where the lady spoke about the equivalence of learned and learnt and spelled vs spelt. 
Point taken.
Spelt is a charming old English word, I haven't heard it for a long time. 
I think both learnt and spelt have fallen into disuse these days. 

Cheers
Phil.


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## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> wolfbm1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Wolf,
> Many thanks for that nice PM and the offer to help me learn Polish. I need all the help I can get!
> 
> 
> 
> You are very welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To answer your question,
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I learned to speak Italian ==> some degree of success
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I tried to learn to speak Italian ==> a more modest expression implying more difficulty and possibly less success
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you for your answer. So there is a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I *learned* to speak Italian ==> some degree of success
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now I am not sure how to translate "I learned."
> It could mean either
> a) Mieszkałem we Włoszech przez rok i w tym czasie *uczyłem* *się* mówić po włosku ( pewien stopień powodzenia - You had to learn something)
> OR
> b) Mieszkałem we Włoszech przez rok i w tym czasie *nauczyłem* *się* mówić po włosku ( pewien stopień powodzenia - We don't know how much you learned. )
> 
> And I *learned* to speak Italian *fluently* =* Nauczyłem się* mówić po włosku* płynnie*. (zwycięstwo)
> So probably (a) sentence is the best translation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lived in Italy for a year and during that time I *tried to learn* to speak Italian ==> a more modest expression implying more difficulty and possibly less success
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Translation: Mieszkałem we Włoszech przez rok i w tym czasie *póbowałem nauczyć się* mówić po włosku. (skromniejsze stwierdzenie sugerujące większą trudność i być może mniejsze powodzenie)
Click to expand...


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## LilianaB

Yes, I don't think _learnt_ is used in contemporary AE that much, at least I haven't seen it in any newspapers or books for quite while. As to _study_ -- yes, it may sometimes sound a little pretentious, because its original meaning indictes a scholarly action -- something a scholar, or a linguist in this case, would do. This does not mean that other people cannot do it, but the original meaning is related to a thourough linguistic, or other, analysis.


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> As to _study_ ... because its original meaning indicates a scholarly action -- something a scholar, or a linguist in this case, would do. This does not mean that other people cannot do it, but the original meaning is related to a thorough linguistic, or other, analysis.


I've known L.G. Alexander as an educator. His New Concept English used to be very popular in Poland (and it still is popular in China I believe). I, however, keep coming back to his handbooks of English, especially to the Practice and Progress Drills audio cassettes. Here is an excerpt from his short biography:

During National Service in the British Army Germany (1954-56), he had his first experience as an educator, teaching A-level English as an Educational Corps instructor. He then started his career in English language teaching and materials writing.

The quote I included in post #64 comes from his coursebook of English, which is primarily addressed to all learners of English and not to linguists. 
Note, that he uses the word "study" in his instructions to the students. I don't think it sounds pretentious in this case.

But *study* (n) can also mean *nauka*. 

Alexander once said, in his lecture in China, that there are ads which claim that one can learn a language in two weeks of* study *or learn to play the piano in a couple of hours. He also said that maybe one can *learn* how to order a cup of coffee, yet one has to *study* language for a long time before he can understand it.


How would you translate: (two friends are talking) Jak ci idzie nauka (angielskiego)?  How are your (English) studies?


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## Thomas1

How about: How is your English?


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## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> How would you translate: (two friends are talking) Jak ci idzie nauka (angielskiego)?  How are your (English) studies?



As it happens, someone asked me recently "Now is your Polish coming along?".
This is a very common way to word this type of question.


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## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> As it happens, someone asked me recently "How is your Polish coming along?".
> This is a very common way to word this type of question.


What about *Jak ci idzie nauka?*  to mean Jak ci idzie nauka w tej szkole?
Maybe "How is your learning coming along?"


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## LeTasmanien

wolfbm1 said:


> Now I am not sure how to translate "I learned."
> It could mean either
> a) Mieszkałem we Włoszech przez rok i w tym czasie *uczyłem* *się* mówić po włosku ( pewien stopień powodzenia - You had to learn something)
> OR
> b) Mieszkałem we Włoszech przez rok i w tym czasien *nauczyłem* *się* mówić po włosku ( pewien stopień powodzenia - We don't know how much you learned. )
> 
> And I *learned* to speak Italian *fluently* =* Nauczyłem się* mówić po włosku* płynnie*. (zwycięstwo)
> So probably (a) sentence is the best translation.



Hi Wolf,
Grazyna tells me that "nauczyć się" implies some mastery of the subject.
We have also decided that "uczyć się" is not quite equivalent to "to learn"?
G says that "uczyć się" implies the learning activity is either ongoing or not completed.
"To learn" can also have the same meaning but in addition in English we often say something like, "When I was at school I learned to read and write" ==> task completed.
Cheers
Phil.


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## wolfbm1

LeTasmanien said:


> Grazyna tells me that "nauczyć się" implies some mastery of the subject.


Agreed.


> We have also decided that "uczyć się" is not quite equivalent to "to learn"?


That is the whole problem.
I remember using a handbook of English entitled "*We learn English" by **Anna **Zawadzka and **Janina **Smólska *
I always understood it to mean "Uczymy się angielskiego". And this book used to be used/studied by secondary shool pupils.

Then at university students of "English studies" *study* English. (Although in reality they continue learning English)


> G says that "uczyć się" implies the learning activity is either ongoing or not completed.


Agreed. 


> "To learn" can also have the same meaning but in addition in English we often say something like, "When I was at school I learned to read and write" ==> task completed.


And to express an ongoing or not completed task you have to add other words like, e.g. the word try:
 "When I was at school I tried learning to read and write". (The use of a continuous tense is not necessary and could mean slightly different thing.)

Thank you for your comment. 

Cheers,
Wolf


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## von Mises

In the direct method of teaching English there is a following question in one of the textbooks:
_Do you remember every English word that you have learnt?
_The question seems to imply that the words the student has learnt are in his memory. Hence the word "learn". The proposed answer is:
_-No, I don't remember every English word that I have learnt.
_Now, if the student has learnt the words it means he has committed them to memory. Unless, he hasn't.  So, how would you put it? _No, I don't remember every English word that I tried learning?_


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## LilianaB

wolfbm1 said:


> I've known L.G. Alexander as an educator. His New Concept English used to be very popular in Poland (and it still is popular in China I believe). I, however, keep coming back to his handbooks of English, especially to the Practice and Progress Drills audio cassettes. Here is an excerpt from his short biography:
> 
> During National Service in the British Army Germany (1954-56), he had his first experience as an educator, teaching A-level English as an Educational Corps instructor. He then started his career in English language teaching and materials writing.
> 
> The quote I included in post #64 comes from his coursebook of English, which is primarily addressed to all learners of English and not to linguists.
> Note, that he uses the word "study" in his instructions to the students. I don't think it sounds pretentious in this case.
> 
> But *study* (n) can also mean *nauka*.
> 
> Alexander once said, in his lecture in China, that there are ads which claim that one can learn a language in two weeks of* study *or learn to play the piano in a couple of hours. He also said that maybe one can *learn* how to order a cup of coffee, yet one has to *study* language for a long time before he can understand it.
> 
> 
> How would you translate: (two friends are talking) Jak ci idzie nauka (angielskiego)?  How are your (English) studies?




Hi, Wolf. Mr. Alexander is a very learned man, although his books are slightly strange, or at least unusual -- hard for people to study on their own. Definitely in ten days some people can learn how to order a cup of coffee -- that is about it. He is using the constructions with study the right way. I was just referring to the original meaning of study -- its etymology. However, I don't think _How are your English studies_ would sound right in reference to a high-shool student trying to learn English four hours a week. _How is your progress in learning English_, perhaps? _How are you doing with your English_?


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## wolfbm1

von Mises said:


> In the direct method of teaching English there is a following question in one of the textbooks:
> _Do you remember every English word that you have learnt?
> _The question seems to imply that the words the student has learnt are in his memory. Hence the word "learn". The proposed answer is:
> _-No, I don't remember every English word that I have learnt.
> _Now, if the student has learnt the words it means he has committed them to memory. Unless, he hasn't.  So, how would you put it? _No, I don't remember every English word that I tried learning?_



Thank you, von Mises.  That's interesting. I really appreciate it. 


> if the student has learnt the words it means he has committed them to memory. Unless, he hasn't.


Jeśli student uczył się słów, to znaczy, że (dosł.)powierzył je swojej pamięci, chyba, że nie.

_No, I don't remember every English word that I *tried learning*? _is supposed to convey the imperfective, so 

Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *się uczyłem*. 
And the literal meaning is: Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *próbowałem się nauczyć*.


(Bare in mind that: *Uczyłem się* angielskiego, ale się *nie nauczyłem*. =  I *tried learning* English but I *didn't*.)
 I *learned* English but I didn't.

But


> The proposed answer is:
> _-No, I don't remember every English word that I have learnt._


= Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *się uczyłem*. 

The above answer is supposed to be better than the one with the word try.

Because when you commit something to memory then, ta-da, it is there.
Now when you *try* to commit something to memory, what is the outcome? We don't know if it is there.  It might be a complete failure.

Now I've started to realise that the sentence: _No, I don't remember every English word that I *tried learning*?_
is not a very good answer.


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## wolfbm1

I have come to this conclusion:
When you think in English you don't have to worry about the perfective or imperfective aspect. 
Each English verb is neutral in this respect. It is only when you start to translate English verbs into Polish you use either perfective or imperfective form. In fact I have just tried to translate a conversation, in which the past tense was used. Here it is:

*red colour* => perfective verbs

Robert: Cześć Alice, co *robiłaś* w ostatni weekend? 
                  - what *did *you* do* last weekend?

Alice: *Robiłam* wiele rzeczy. W sobotę *poszłam* na zakupy.  
I *did *a lot of things. On Saturday, I *went* shopping.

Robert: Co *kupiłaś*?   (kupiłam - _aspekt dokonany - perfective od kupowałam)_
 - What *did* you *buy*?

Alice: *Kupiłam* nowe ciuchy. Również *grałam* w tenisa. _
   -  I *bought *some new clothes. I also *played* tennis.
_
_Robert: Z kim *grałaś*? 
_
_Alice: *Grałam* zTomem.    *played  *
_
_Robert:  Czy *wygrałaś?* *won*
_
_Alice: Oczywiście, że *wygrałam*!  *won*
_
_Robert: Co *robiłaś* po meczu tenisowym?     *did*
_
_Alice: Cóż, *poszłam* do domu i *wzięłam *prysznic, a potem *wyszłam*.   *went -  took -  went out*
_
_Robert: Czy *jadłaś (byłaś)* w restauracji?  *ate*
_
_Alice: Tak, moja przyjaciółka Jacky i ja *jadłyśmy (byłyśmy)* w "The Fork dobry"  *ate*
_
_Robert: Czy kolacja *smakowała* ?  *enjoyed*
_
_Alice: Tak, *byłyśmy* bardzo *zadowolone* z naszej kolacji bardzo dziękuję. *Piłyśmy* również wspaniałe wino!  *enjoyed - drank*
_
_Robert: Niestety, *nie wychodziłem* w ten weekend. *Nie jadłem/byłem* w restauracji i *nie grałem* w tenisa. *went out - ate - played*

Alice: Co *robiłeś*?   *did*_

_Robert: Byłem w domu i *uczyłem się na* test. (*studied for) *
_

_Source: _Simple Past for Beginners


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> Hi, Wolf. ... I don't think _How are your English studies_ would sound right in reference to a high-shool student trying to learn English four hours a week. _How is your progress in learning English_, perhaps? _How are you doing with your English_?


Thanks, Liliana. Yes, I admit that I translated it poorly. Thank you for your suggestions. Nauka in my sentence means "learning" not "study."
But we can say that English is the object of our study and this study can be long term.


> Mr. Alexander is a very learned man, although his books are slightly strange, or at least unusual -- hard for people to study on their own.



Well, that may be true. Mostly because, for some reason, at that time in Poland, the complete course of New Concept English was not available. No additional exercises, questions or drills. His course was modified and is still very popular in China.


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## LilianaB

wolfbm1 said:


> Thank you, von Mises.  That's interesting. I really appreciate it.
> 
> Jeśli student uczył się słów, to znaczy, że (dosł.)powierzył je swojej pamięci, chyba, że nie.
> 
> _No, I don't remember every English word that I *tried learning*? _is supposed to convey the imperfective, so
> 
> Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *się uczyłem*.
> And the literal meaning is: Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *próbowałem się nauczyć*.
> 
> 
> (Bare in mind that: *Uczyłem się* angielskiego, ale się *nie nauczyłem*. =  I *tried learning* English but I *didn't*.)
> I *learned* English but I didn't.
> 
> But
> 
> = Nie, nie pamiętam każdego angielskiego słowa, którego *się uczyłem*.
> 
> The above answer is supposed to be better than the one with the word try.
> 
> Because when you commit something to memory then, ta-da, it is there.
> Now when you *try* to commit something to memory, what is the outcome? We don't know if it is there.  It might be a complete failure.
> 
> Now I've started to realise that the sentence: _No, I don't remember every English word that I *tried learning*?_
> is not a very good answer.


Hi.Wolf.

I don't think the sentence with "tried learning" expresses what you want to express, based on the posts. I would not use it in this context. _I forgot most of what I have learned _is fine. You can first learn something, and then forget it. As to the Polish translation I would add _kiedyś_.


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## wolfbm1

LilianaB said:


> Hi.Wolf.
> 
> I don't think the sentence with "tried learning" expresses what you want to express, based on the posts. I would not use it in this context. _I forgot most of what I have learned _is fine. You can first learn something, and then forget it. As to the Polish translation I would add _kiedyś_.


Yes. I agree. Thank you for your interesting suggestion.


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## Thomas1

I've given it some thought and gather that the trouble is that the Polish 'uczyłem się' (imperfective aspect, past tense) can also imply a completed task. As I understand it, there can be a sort of two levels in it: the surface level and the profound level. The surface one informs us that the activity was ongoing; it simply took place; this level is always present. However, in certain contexts, it can imply a completed activity (I'd like to emphasise here that this information is implied and we usually aren't conscious of it). Let me demonstrate it with some examples (Please, correct me someone if the English part is off-base.):
_Wczoraj (właśnie) uczyliśmy się czasowników nieregularnych na angielskim kiedy do klasy wpadł pies._
_Yesterday we were (just) learning English irregular verbs when a dog rolled into the classroom._

​Here, we don't have the profound level. It was an on-going action. That's it.


Let's have a look at these examples [the repetition of the verbs 'uczyć się' and 'learn' may seem stylistically poor, but it’s just for the sake of clarity]:
_Pamiętam, że jak chodziłem jeszcze do szkoły uczyliśmy się tabliczki mnożenia, na zajęciach praktyczno-technicznych uczyliśmy się gotować, a na wf. uczyliśmy się wspinać po linie. 
_
_I remember when I still went to school, we learnt the multiplication table, in arts and crafts class_[? not sure you learn that in arts and crafts class]_ we learnt how to cook, and in PE we learnt to climb a rope. _
​
In this case, the surface level tells us that the action was ongoing. This is the main information – someone had an X class on Y. However, the profound level implies that the person in question did learn all those things; we just don't know to what degree they learnt them. It can be near to nothing or (near to) mastery. 
We can, of course, say the second sentence using the perfective aspect:
_Pamiętam, że jak chodziłem jeszcze do szkoły nauczyliśmy się tabliczki mnożenia, na zajęciach praktyczno-technicznych nauczyliśmy się gotować, a na wf. nauczyliśmy się wspinać po linie._
​
However, this is more direct and here what was implicit in the case of the imperfect aspect is now in the first plan. In some cases, the perfective aspect may be even taken as a bit pretentious.

I think you could even translate the sentence by LeTasmanien with the imperfective aspect:
_"When I was at school I learned to read and write".
Kiedy chodziłem do szkoły uczyłem się czytać i pisać.
Kiedy chodziłem do szkoły nauczyłem się czytać i pisać._​


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## wolfbm1

Thomas1 said:


> I think you could even translate the sentence by LeTasmanien with the imperfective aspect:_"When I was at school I learned to read and write".
> Kiedy chodziłem do szkoły uczyłem się czytać i pisać.
> Kiedy chodziłem do szkoły nauczyłem się czytać i pisać. _​



Chciałbym się z tym zgodzić i coś mi się wydaje, że masz rację. Porównuję jeszcze te wątki:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2582113  i  http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2301386​


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## wolfbm1

Podobny problem z learn jest w zdaniu:

If I (ever) go Italy, I'll try to learn Italian. Jeśli pojadę (kiedykolwiek) do Włoch, będę się uczyć włoskiego. - tryb niedokonany.

If I go Italy, I'll be learning Italian. Jeśli pojadę do Włoch, będę się uczyć włoskiego. - tryb niedokonany.

If I go Italy, I'll learn Italian.  Jeśli pojadę do Włoch, nauczę się włoskiego.  - tryb dokonany.


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