# wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen



## valdur

Hallo!

I was wondering about the grammar behind this sentence that I heard recently. 

Why wouldn't this be "wieso würde sich das ändern wenn wir _umzogen_"?

In English, we would say "why would that change once we _moved_" past tense, but if my understanding is correct, in German that sounds strange and it is better to use the Present Tense?

Thank you!


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## Frieder

"wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" is colloquial (spoken) German. In written German I'd prefer Konjunktiv II: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umzögen*".



valdur said:


> once we _moved_" past tense


isn't that what you call C_onditional Mood_?


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## Frank78

Frieder said:


> isn't that what you call C_onditional Mood_?



_Once_ is a bit of a special case because it's 100% certain that it will happen.

So, the Konjunktiv II does not really fit as translation.

"Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umgezogen sind."*


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## valdur

Frank78 said:


> _Once_ is a bit of a special case because it's 100% certain that it will happen.
> 
> So, the Konjunktiv II does not really fit as translation.
> 
> "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umgezogen sind."*



Hello! Thanks for your response. Is this the _correct_ way to say it and what i originally quoted was wrong? 
Or can one also say: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen" *without being incorrect?

Do they suggest the same thing just changed a bit temporally?


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## anahiseri

Frieder said:


> "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" is colloquial (spoken) German. In written German I'd prefer Konjunktiv II: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umzögen*".


Yes, Konjunktiv II is correct here, but when the verb sounds strange, as is the case with "umzögen", in spoken language "würden" is prefered: *wenn* *wir umziehen würden. * This is more or less a second conditional. The mix of *würden* with the present is strictly speaking not correct but very common. On the other hand, i wouldn't translate "wenn" by "once". For me it's* if.*


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## JClaudeK

anahiseri said:


> Yes, Konjunktiv II is correct here,[....]  *wenn* *wir umziehen würden.*


 But it would not have this ↓ meaning


valdur said:


> In English, we would say "why would that change once we _moved_"


(_ 100% certain that it will happen_. )



valdur said:


> Or can one also say: "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen" *without being incorrect?


It would be correct  but the meaning would change => _why would that change *if* we move. _


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## valdur

JClaudeK said:


> But it would not have this ↓ meaning
> 
> (_ 100% certain that it will happen_. )
> 
> 
> It would be correct  but the meaning would change => _why would that change *if* we move. _



Understood, I guess it’s interesting to me because in English we wouldn’t use the present exclusively, but rather the past to show a hypothetical scenario.
“If we _moved_”
 To my ears, there isn’t the biggest difference in meaning between “if we move” and “if we moved” though if we use “why _would _that change” then  moved sounds better.

So the takeaway from this is: in German use the present for this construction rather than the preterite?


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## Frank78

valdur said:


> Understood, I guess it’s interesting to me because in English we wouldn’t use the present exclusively, but rather the past to show a hypothetical scenario.
> “If we _moved_”
> To my ears, there isn’t the biggest difference in meaning between “if we move” and “if we moved” though if we use “why _would _that change” then  moved sounds better.
> 
> So the takeaway from this is: in German use the present for this construction rather than the preterite?



I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:

if we moved - "wenn wir umzögen" (Konjunktiv II) or replacement with würde: "wenn wir umziehen würden"


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## valdur

Frank78 said:


> I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:
> 
> if we moved - "wenn wir umzögen" (Konjunktiv II) or replacement with würde: "wenn wir umziehen würden"


oh sorry, now I’m confused again.

so we _can’t_ say “wenn wir umziehen”. The _only_ correct way besides Konjunktiv II is “wenn wir umziehen würden”?

or we can say the former and it just has a slightly different meaning?


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## JClaudeK

Frank78 said:


> I guess it was just a typo by JClaudeK:


No, it isn't - perhaps it's impossible in English to say "_why would that change *if* we move. _"
So it must be:  "_why would that change *when *we will move._"?
"wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen*" *=* "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen* *werden*." - it's still  it's 100% certain that it will happen.
With “wenn wir umziehen würden” - the move is just a hypothesis.

But anyway, if the move is a fact and not just hypothetical, the best way to say is


Frank78 said:


> "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umgezogen sind."*


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## Frank78

JClaudeK said:


> No, it isn't - perhaps it's impossible in English to say "_why would that change *if* we move. _"
> So it must be:  "_why would that change *when *we will move._"?
> "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen*" *=* "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen* *werden*." - it's still  it's 100% certain that it will happen.
> With “wenn wir umziehen würden” - the move is just a hypothesis.
> 
> But anyway, if the move is a fact and not just hypothetical, the best way to say is



"Why *will *that *change* once/when/if we *move*" = very likely to happen (once + when = 100% certainty)
"Why *would* that* change* if we *moved*" = hypothetical, not very likely

I was just a bit puzzled to read "once" together with "would". Perhaps the OP or any other native speaker can enlighten us.



valdur said:


> oh sorry, now I’m confused again.
> 
> so we _can’t_ say “wenn wir umziehen”. The _only_ correct way besides Konjunktiv II is “wenn wir umziehen würden”?
> 
> or we can say the former and it just has a slightly different meaning?



Both are possible.

"Why *will *that *change* once/when/if we *move*" 

"Wieso_ *ändert sich das/wird sich das ändern*_, wenn wir *umziehen*?"


"Why *would* that* change* if we *moved*" 

"Wieso *würde* sich das *ändern*, wenn/falls wir *umzögen/umziehen würden*?" (Using "würde" twice is not the best style but possible in German)


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## JClaudeK

Bist Du nicht mehr überzeugt von Deinem


Frank78 said:


> Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* umgezogen sind."*



Für mich zieht der  KII im 1. Satz  nicht unbedingt KII im 2. Satz nach sich. 

"Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* erst mal  umgezogen sind* (= umgezogen sein werden)?" durchaus möglich.


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## Frank78

JClaudeK said:


> Bist Du nicht mehr überzeugt von Deinem
> 
> 
> Für mich zieht der  KII im 1. Satz  nicht unbedingt KII im 2. Satz nach sich.
> 
> "Wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir* erst mal  umgezogen sind* (= umgezogen sein werden)?" durchaus möglich.



Geht auch. Das Deutsche ist hier durchaus flexibler.


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## anahiseri

JClaudeK said:


> . . .
> So it must be:  "_why would that change *when *we will move._"?
> . . .


that is impossible, the combination of would  and will. Either *would / past *  or *will / present.*


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## valdur

Frank78 said:


> "Why *will *that *change* once/when/if we *move*" = very likely to happen (once + when = 100% certainty)
> "Why *would* that* change* if we *moved*" = hypothetical, not very likely
> 
> I was just a bit puzzled to read "once" together with "would". Perhaps the OP or any other native speaker can enlighten us.
> 
> 
> 
> Both are possible.
> 
> "Why *will *that *change* once/when/if we *move*"
> 
> "Wieso_ *ändert sich das/wird sich das ändern*_, wenn wir *umziehen*?"
> 
> 
> "Why *would* that* change* if we *moved*"
> 
> "Wieso *würde* sich das *ändern*, wenn/falls wir *umzögen/umziehen würden*?" (Using "würde" twice is not the best style but possible in German)


In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete. 
"Why would that change once we move / have moved" = _we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward _

If we say "Why would that change if we moved", it becomes a hypothetical situation.

So my final understanding of the German is, if we want to use the situation of a hypothetical move that has not been planned out yet, the colloquial, spoken way would be 

_Wieso *würde* sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen würden*_

With the conditional in both parts of the sentence, as opposed to English using the conditional and then the past?


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## Frank78

valdur said:


> In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete.
> "Why would that change once we move / have moved" = _we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward _



I'll send you a PM this probably leads too far for the German forum.



valdur said:


> So my final understanding of the German is, if we want to use the situation of a hypothetical move that has not been planned out yet, the colloquial, spoken way would be
> 
> _Wieso *würde* sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen würden*_
> 
> With the conditional in both parts of the sentence, as opposed to English using the conditional and then the past?


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## JClaudeK

valdur said:


> In this situation, once refers to a future action that is concrete.
> "Why would that change once we move / have moved" = _we have a definite plan to move that is moving forward _


I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say _"Wieso *sollte* sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"_


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## valdur

JClaudeK said:


> I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say _"Wieso *sollte* sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"_


That makes sense, but if we are talking about a hypothetical situation of moving, then we still keep the conditional “wieso würde sich das andern, wenn wir umziehen würden” correct?


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## Frieder

valdur said:


> we are talking about a hypothetical situation of moving, then we still keep the conditional “wieso würde sich das andern, wenn wir umziehen würden” correct?


Yes, but you may want to avoid the 2nd _würde_. Then you're back at #2


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## valdur

Frieder said:


> Yes, but you may want to avoid the 2nd _würde_. Then you're back at #2


However, it is not incorrect to use the second _würde _and would be more common than saying _umzögen_ out loud?


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## JClaudeK

valdur said:


> it is not incorrect to use the second _würde _





valdur said:


> would be more common


Yes, in spoken language.


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## Kajjo

valdur said:


> spoken way would be _Wieso *würde* sich das ändern, wenn wir *umziehen würden*_


I think there is quite a tendency to use nominal phrases instead of subordinate clauses if possible. I would say:

_Und wieso würde sich das durch einen Umzug ändern?_

oder maybe a bit more argumentative:

_Und was soll ein Umzug daran ändern?_

In my opinion, the initial title construction with main and subordinate clause is quite unlikely in real life. That's why discussing all the possible tenses became so complicated. With such sentences we need to think outside-the-box and phrase is completely from scratch.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> I think there is quite a tendency to use nominal phrases instead of subordinate clauses if possible. I would say:
> 
> _Und wieso würde sich das durch einen Umzug ändern?_



In this context, the nominal phrase is much more elegant.


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## anahiseri

Kajjo said:


> . . . . .
> 
> _Und wieso würde sich das durch einen Umzug ändern?_
> 
> oder maybe a bit more argumentative:
> 
> _Und was soll ein Umzug daran ändern?_
> 
> . . . .


Or maybe, not quite as "schroff", *Was würde ein Umzug daran ändern?*


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## Schlabberlatz

> 1. unter der Voraussetzung, Bedingung, dass …; für den Fall, dass …; falls
> Grammatik     konditional
> 
> Beispiele
> 
> wenn er nicht kommt/nicht kommen sollte, [so] müssen wir die Konsequenzen ziehen
> was würdest du machen, wenn er dich verlassen würde?
> 2. sobald
> Grammatik     temporal
> wenn





Frieder said:


> "wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" is colloquial (spoken) German.


You are probably right, but I wouldn't mind using it in written texts, too. Duden doesn't even mark "wenn er nicht kommt, müssen wir die Konsequenzen ziehen" as colloquial.



valdur said:


> "why would that change once we _moved_"





JClaudeK said:


> I think that in this case, it would be more natural to say _"Wieso *sollte* sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen?"_




Edit:
"wieso würde sich das ändern, wenn wir umziehen" (even) sounds more natural to me than the versions with Konjunktiv.


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