# Portugal and Spain: one country?



## Cecilio

A few weeks ago a Portuguese magazine published the results of a survey in which citizens of that country were asked, among other things, if they wanted Portugal and Spain to be a united nation. The results were surprising, and controversial: about 28% of Portuguese people were in favour of that union.

Is that survey serious enough? Did the people who answered "yes" really mean it?

What kind of things do we have in common?


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## timpeac

I don't understand what you mean by "is that survey serious enough". How can we possibly know that? (I assume by "serious" you mean "rigorous" in the sense that any results it gives can be taken as indicative of the average opinion?)


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## Lusitania

Cecilio,

There are over 10 million portuguese and only 1000 answered. Also it's not clear in which part of the country the study took place and who were the people who asked. Also this people focused on the economic union. Many portuguese are in favour of a common market but not to unite as one country.

In Portugal we do feel close to Spanish but we have the most ancient frontiers in europe and I do doubt that this could happen in the near future. Although I think that it's a path that we're taking. A bit like "La balsa de piedra".

On a personal point of view. I'm not for it. I love Spain and I think that spanish people are very humorous and fun and that we have many things in common but I rather prefer to live in small (even in economic crisis) country than to be a 2nd class citizen in a big country.

I think especially that portuguese and spanish have a lot to go through before we could even think on such a thing.

Un abrazo fuerte desde lisboa


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## Cecilio

timpeac said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "is that survey serious enough". How can we possibly know that? (I assume by "serious" you mean "rigours" in the sense that any results it gives can be taken as indicative?)



The results of the survey were published at the front page of that magazine, and they were shown as "big news" or "sensational news". I would like to know if people in Portugal felt this survey was conducted properly, or rigorously, that is, for example: were the questions somehow biased?


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## Cecilio

Lusitania said:


> Cecilio,
> 
> There are over 10 million portuguese and only 1000 answered. Also it's not clear in which part of the country the study took place and who were the people who asked. Also this people focused on the economic union. Many portuguese are in favour of a common market but not to unite as one country.
> 
> In Portugal we do feel close to Spanish but we have the most ancient frontiers in europe and I do doubt that this could happen in the near future. Although I think that it's a path that we're taking. A bit like "La balsa de piedra".
> 
> On a personal point of view. I'm not for it. I love Spain and I think that spanish people are very humorous and fun and that we have many things in common but I rather prefer to live in small (even in economic crisis) country than to be a 2nd class citizen in a big country.
> 
> I think especially that portuguese and spanish have a lot to go through before we could even think on such a thing.
> 
> Un abrazo fuerte desde lisboa



Hi, Lusitania, I perfectly understand your point of view, and I assume that many Portuguese people think the way you do. That's why it's surprising that all of a sudden someone comes up with such results from a survey.


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## timpeac

Cecilio said:


> The results of the survey were published at the front page of that magazine, and they were shown as "big news" or "sensational news".


Which magazine?


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## Cecilio

timpeac said:


> Which magazine?



I think it's called "El Sol", and in fact it is a brand new magazine. The results of the survey appeared in the first issue of this publication, and it looks as if some promotional intentions are behind the whole thing. If they wanted publicity, they got it: the news spread quickly in both Portugal and Spain.


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## Lusitania

Cecilio,

This was the first number of this newspaper "SOL". The director was the former director of the newspaper "Expresso" for many years. I think that it was a strategy to launch the newspaper. But I don't believe that they would fake it. I believe it to be serious although the interpretation itself was more towards a sensational article to make people starting to buy it. 

However, the spanish gave more importance to this than us. Here people didn't pay any attention to this.


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## timpeac

Cecilio said:


> I think it's called "El Sol", and in fact it is a brand new magazine.


Ah! That's probably important that it was a new magazine then. Where does most of their advertising come from, Spanish or Portuguese companies?


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## Lusitania

Here it's in portuguese. I'm not sure if there are other news in english about it. I doubt it.

Also on TVE, the people that were interviewed were in the north of portugal and I think that in Galicia which is known to have many things in common and lots of projects going on. I barely feel any diference in speaking with people from Minho or Trás-os-Montes and Gallegos.

The answers would have been much different if it was done in the south of Portugal.


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## Cecilio

timpeac said:


> Ah! That's probably important that it was a new magazine then. Where does most of their advertising come from, Spanish or Portuguese companies?



I don't know, but in fact the whole affair seems to be mostly related to economy, you're right. The relationships between the two countries are treated here in terms of economics rather than culture, language, history, etc. In fact, my personal opinion is that many of the people who answered "yes" did it  as some kind of protest against the present state of the economy in Portugal.


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## Lusitania

Timpeac,

There are both advertising in the newspaper. I don't think it's about that. We have many spanhish and iberian enterprises (most of the enterprises are from Catalonia). Our government is clearly Iberista and we are coming out from an economic crisis. People have little trust on politicians and they see spain as an example of economic development. They think that it would improve their quality of life and that it would provide more stability.

Also, we've also lived with our backs turned and now there are more contacts with the spanish people, as there is a boom of spanish tourism here and the portuguese are also visiting more spain.


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## timpeac

Thanks for the clarifications - I must say that these intrigues are not reported on in our papers here, so it's very interesting. It seems that both of you think that there are some deep ulterior motives going on in the asking and timing of this survery, then.


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## Lusitania

There is a special context to it, yes. Especially regarding politics and economics I think. It hasn't been that much discussed here as in Spain. Here you can see some coments and generally diferent although on common grounds I think.


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## Dr. Quizá

That question (of the survey, I mean) sounds me like "are you nationalist or would you accept an economical injection for free?" but I also feel Portugal and Spain are socially and culturally much closer than politically and I'd like to see more cooperation between both countries (specially because I live next to the border).

BTW, I guess some people in Spain would change the Basque Country and Catalonia for Portugal


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## Dr. Quizá

Lusitania said:


> I rather prefer to live in small (even in economic crisis) country than to be a 2nd class citizen in a big country.



If Portugal were an autonomous community it would be the second biggest in area (after Castile and León) the second richest (after Catalonia) and the most populous by far. Too much for a "second class".


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## lampiao

I reckon that then I'd be categorized as nationalist. No offense, but I wouldn't dare to say I love Spain anymore than I love, say, Ukraine.
Please mind that I'm not saying I dislike Spain.


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## Dr. Quizá

I'm not interested in nationalist issues but, don't you think two neighbours could work better together, for instance, as a common front inside the UE?


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## lampiao

Absolutely! I do believe there is much to gain for both countries with greater political, economical, etc, bonds.
Now, unification is a whole different matter


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## Tomby

Com licença vou a escrever em português já que se trata de um tema português que abrange Espanha, além que não tenho os suficientes conhecimentos de inglês para responder de maneira certa. Peço desculpa aos ingleses.
Para mim não foi nenhuma surpresa. Ouvi a noticia pela TVE (TV espanhola) e entrei na web do Sol para verificar a notícia. Na minha opinião, o novo jornal precisa de atenção e publicidade ou de popularidade, que ainda é pior. Seja como for quer estar presente nas bancas de jornais concorrendo com os jornais tradicionais e centenários de Portugal. Solução: dizer asneiras (com licença). 
Há umas semanas um jornal britânico disse que a Princesa das Astúrias perdeu um futuro herdeiro por causa da sua constituição física (é muito magra). Uma semana depois as TV e as rádios deram a conhecer a feliz notícia da gravidez da futura Rainha de Espanha. Dessa maneira funciona a _imprensa-lixo_. 
Sobre a percentagem: 30% dos portugueses querem unir-se a Espanha. Óptimo! Quem avaliza que esses resultados foram obtidos com o rigor necessário? Para mim é uma brincadeira tão grande como 30% dos catalães que votaram afirmativamente um Estatuto de Autonomia que pode quebrar a unidade de Espanha num futuro próximo. Mas o resultado da pesquisa do Sol é uma piada e infelizmente o resultado do Referendo da Catalunha é uma tragédia. Apenas mais de 30% (2.000.000 hab.) pode decidir sobre um total de 54.000.000 de habitantes. 
Quanto à integração de Portugal em Espanha, tranquilos, não se aflijam, dificilmente acontecerá. Em Espanha existe uma expressão popular que diz (traduzo literalmente): "_Juntos, mas não misturados_". Essa sabedoria popular o resume tudo neste assunto.
Eu julgo que Portugal e Espanha devem seguir sendo duas nações soberanas mas com uma íntima colaboração mútua que seja um paradigma para o resto da União Europeia e do mundo inteiro. Esta cooperação deveria começar por conhecer e estudar nossas línguas (eu moro a mais de 1.000 quilómetros de Lisboa e é uma grande honra poder me expressar em português mesmo seja com dificuldade). A seguir deveria existir uma colaboração em matéria industrial, agrária, etc. Também investir em turismo, já que temos uma história comum de longa data. Inclusive os produtos fabricados conjuntamente deveriam levar a inscrição "_Made in Portugal and Spain_". Querer é poder e tudo começa por um primeiro passo.
O que não devemos fazer é viver de costas viradas mais oito séculos e os portugueses esquecer provérbios tais como "de Espanha nem bons ventos nem bons casamentos" ou "de Espanha maus ventos e piores casamentos" [não sei com certeza qual deles é o certo] e por parte espanhola dizer "que Portugal é um país que fica aí onde dizem que vendem bom café e bonitos enxovais e que Nossa Senhora de Fátima se apareceu a três pastorinhos". Esse desconhecimento (por parte de Espanha) e essa desconfiança (por parte de Portugal) é o primeiro que deve sumir dos nossos povos. 
Desculpem a maçada.
Um forte abraço para todos vocês!


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## pickypuck

I've sometimes heard that from Portuguese people but of course they are raianos (frontier people) like me. They buy their food and clothes, fill up their tanks, go to the cinema, eat in restaurants here so maybe some have the feeling that they already live here ^_^ Well, in my humble opinion the possibility of a union is simply science fiction. There would be so many people against the idea of not celebrating December 1st, especially those who do it going to buy and eat to Spain  

¡Olé!


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## Lusitania

Dr. Quizá said:


> If Portugal were an autonomous community it would be the second biggest in area (after Castile and León) the second richest (after Catalonia) and the most populous by far. Too much for a "second class".


 

Well, the problem is not quantity is quality. The inferiority is more in the sense of how we are perceived by many spanish and I do not think that we would be seen as equals.

Also, I do add that I do feel very close to Basques and Catalans. I've always felt welcome in their regions. Although I live in Lisbon and my family comes from the south (Algarve) and I feel closer to Extremadura and Andalucia.


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## Lusitania

Dr. Quizá said:


> I'm not interested in nationalist issues but, don't you think two neighbours could work better together, for instance, as a common front inside the UE?


 

Yes, I do believe in that, as we are already doing. Also like Lampião said, it's not about unification what we want. Although I feel much closer to spanish culture (not spanish people) than any other culture. Also, we never agreed on these concepts. Unification for the spanish means occupation for the portuguese. We don't have frontiers, we are free to visit each others countries. 

Also, like tombatossals said. We do have a LOT in common and also I think that to understand ourselves we must understand the other. I would go for a compared history on both countries that both countries would agree upon. As our history doesn't fit with yours, so maybe finding a common perspective would be important. As in many other things that have contributed to the invisibility of portuguese people and facts in Spain.


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## natasha2000

I personally, think it would be at least very rare thing if it happened. So many centuries Portugal and Spain coexisted in Iberian peninsula, and had their own historical, economical, national paths. Anyway, how this "future" country would be called? I don't think it would be fair that either of them loses their name and becomes a part of the other one. This idea just looks ... "descabellada" ???

On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong in creating a common front as Iberic countries in economical issues regarding Europe. This only can bring good to both countries.




Lusitania said:


> .....but I rather prefer to live in small (even in economic crisis) country than to be a 2nd class citizen in a big country.


 
I am just curious, why did you say this? Why would you feel 2nd class citizen?


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## Fernando

natasha2000 said:


> Anyway, how this "future" country would be called?



That would be the easiest part: Iberia.


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## illerdi

Dr. Quizá said:


> BTW, I guess some people in Spain would change the Basque Country and Catalonia for Portugal


 
Why do you say that? Could you explain that please?


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## moura

I like being a Portuguese, and no matter what present or future crisis may happen, my country is Portugal and I wish it stands like that for ever. Reasons? love for the nation, language, way of Portuguese being (it is unique for good and for worst ). Perhaps for the present and future we shall have better politicians, more constructive economic forces, some way to detain corruption and the other negative conditions that detain a better development. That is the hope that keep moving Portuguese like me and other millions, I guess.

As to that enquiry from O Sol (_The Sun_), I think the answers from the Portuguese may also be indirectly evolved with some criticism towards the actual crisis. Portuguese are like this - very critical towards their country, but when it comes to Mundial football and events like that, then the national pride rises till the infinite... (and I am not excluding myself)


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## natasha2000

moura said:


> I like being a Portuguese, and no matter what present or future crisis may happen, my country is Portugal and I wish it stands like that for ever. Reasons? love for the nation, language, way of Portuguese being (it is unique for good and for worst ). Perhaps for the present and future we shall have better politicians, more constructive economic forces, some way to detain corruption and the other negative conditions that detain a better development. That is the hope that keep moving Portuguese like me and other millions, I guess.
> 
> As to that enquiry from O Sol (_The Sun_), I think the answers from the Portuguese may also be indirectly evolved with some criticism towards the actual crisis. Portuguese are like this - very critical towards their country, but when it comes to Mundial football and events like that, then the national pride rises till the infinite... (and I am not excluding myself)


 
I think this kind of reasoning is completely normal, and expected, not only from Portugese, but from any other nation... I don't even know how on Earth someone got this crazy idea?


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:


> I personally, think it would be at least very rare thing if it happened. So many centuries Portugal and Spain coexisted in Iberian peninsula, and had their own historical, economical, national paths. Anyway, how this "future" country would be called?


I believe they called it "Spain" the last time around.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> I believe they called it "Spain" the last time around.


 
Sorry, but I do not understand....


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## Outsider

Portugal was joined with Spain for half a century, once. As far as I know, the resulting united kingdom was known as "Spain".


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> Portugal was joined with Spain for half a century, once. As far as I know, the resulting united kingdom was known as "Spain".


 
Ah, this! But what is 60 years comparing with the whole life? 
And if my history knowledge doesn't decieve me, Portugal was joined to Spain by force. This imaginary union of today is supposed to be on voluntary basis, therefore it wouldn't be fair to neither of two countries lose their name in favor of the other one. Maybe Fernando's solution would be the fairest one.... IF such crazy idea really comes true...


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## maxiogee

natasha2000 said:


> Ah, this! But what is 60 years comparing with the whole life?


To the guy who dies at 60, it's a lifetime. To the guy who dies at 30, it's eternity.


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:


> Ah, this! But what is 60 years comparing with the whole life?
> And if my history knowledge doesn't decieve me, Portugal was joined to Spain by force.


There was some force involved, but I would say it mostly had to do with marriage politics, and the foolishness of some Portuguese kings.  

However, my broader point, though Fernando may chastize me for it, is that IMHO the name "Spain" was _intended_ to apply to the whole peninsula from the beginning. Trouble is, the Spaniards never quite managed to complete their project of conquering all of ancient Hispania.


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:


> There was some force involved, but I would say it mostly had to do with marriage politics, and the foolishness of some Portuguese kings.
> 
> However, my broader point, though Fernando may chastize me for it, is that IMHO the name "Spain" was _intended_ to apply to the whole peninsula from the beginning. Trouble is, the Spaniards never quite managed to complete their project of conquering all of ancient Hispania.


 
The force was applied on the basis of some right through marriage. Felipe II's mother was Portugese, and Portugal at that time (1758) was left without a king. You're right, a foolishness had it part in this event, too...

But, come on... Political union of Spain and Portugal nowadays?
It would be something I wouldn't imagine in my wildest dreams....


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## natasha2000

maxiogee said:


> To the guy who dies at 60, it's a lifetime. To the guy who dies at 30, it's eternity.


 
Maxi, don't be so literal....

Life of a country, maybe I should have said history of a nation...

And yes, people who lived in those times... Well, they just didn't have luck. As I didn't, considering I spent the best years of my life in a country that was rather a prison than a country... But, c'est la vie. Some have a hard life, some have it all served on a plate. What can we do?


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## Cecilio

natasha2000 said:


> The force was applied on the basis of some right through marriage. Felipe II's mother was Portugese, and Portugal at that time (1758) was left without a king. You're right, a foolishness had it part in this event, too...
> 
> But, come on... Political union of  Spain and Portugal nowadays?
> It would be something I wouldn't imagine in my wildest dreams....



Are you sure of the year? I think Philip II lived a couple of centuries earlier...


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## Outsider

natasha2000 said:


> The force was applied on the basis of some right through marriage. Felipe II's mother was Portugese, and Portugal at that time (1758) was left without a king.


1580.


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## natasha2000

Cecilio said:


> Are you sure of the year? I think Philip II lived a couple of centuries earlier...


 
Ups! No comment. I don't know what I was thinking... It was 1580/81. until 1640.

(Stupid, stupid, stupid) 

Well,, I could easily justify mu mistake by permuting the numbers 7 and 5...but I am hopelessly honest)


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## pickypuck

Outsider said:


> I believe they called it "Spain" the last time around.


 
Yeah, and Camões seemed to like the term  



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> Trouble is, the Spaniards never quite managed to complete their project of conquering all of ancient Hispania.


 
Don't be so sure... look at the enterprises you have around  

¡Olé!


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## Outsider

Oh, the French will buy those soon enough.


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## pickypuck

Outsider said:


> Oh, the French will buy those soon enough.


 
You wish  

¡Olé!


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## Brioche

Cecilio said:


> A few weeks ago a Portuguese magazine published the results of a survey in which citizens of that country were asked, among other things, if they wanted Portugal and Spain to be a united nation. The results were surprising, and controversial: about 28% of Portuguese people were in favour of that union.
> 
> Is that survey serious enough? Did the people who answered "yes" really mean it?
> 
> What kind of things do we have in common?


 
I find it hard to imagine that any country in Europe would unite with one of its neighbours. Given that Spain and Portugal are both use the euro, and both are members of the European Union, what would be the point?

Can anyone imagine that North Dakota and South Dakota would join to become just Dakota? Or that West Virginia would re-unite with Virginia?


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## Lusitania

pickypuck said:


> Yeah, and Camões seemed to like the term
> 
> Camões father was Gallego  I also prefer Fernando Pessoa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so sure... look at the enterprises you have around
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then look at all the Portuguese migrants going to Spain Buuuuuuuuu!
> 
> Olé! for you as well
Click to expand...


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## Lusitania

> I am just curious, why did you say this? Why would you feel 2nd class citizen?


 
It never happened to me so far in regions such as Extremadura, Catalonia or Basque Country but even in Galicia with whom Portugal has a "special" relationship it's easy to find Spanish people who think of themselves superior to Portuguese. Just google portuguese and spanish in portuguese and spanish and you'll get a picture of what I'm saying. 

I'm with Moura, that's basically how I feel. I'm not proud of our politicians but in general I love my country and I enjoy being Portuguese with economic crisis or not.


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## Fernando

On the name: Outsider is right. The term Hispania was applied for the Romans to all Iberian Peninsula. Obviously, it was maintained during all Middle Ages when Hispania was splitted in several kingdoms. The hegemonic (Christian) king named himself "Rex Hispaniae" (Navarre kings, as an example). Portugal was a split up of Leon-Castille in XI century.

From unification of Castille and Aragon, "Hispania/España/españoles" was more and more reserved to Castille+Aragon. I doubt that Portuguese were called (in and out the Peninsula) "españoles/espagnoles/Spaniards", even when the unification period (1580-1640), even when the Spanish "prime minister" was a Portuguese (before the union).

From, say, 1400, "Hispania" (the Roman term) was more a "romantic" approach to a concept that assummed a double entity (España/Spain, which "robbed" the concept for the whole peninsula) and Portugal.

All unions (trade, diplomatic, etc.) name themselves as "Iberian", which is not related to Hispania=España.


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## lampiao

If you're interested in a historical perspective, have a look at this link
http://www.unrv.com/provinces/hispania.php

If the text in this site is accurate, then Hispania would be a more proper name for the peninsula, rather than Iberia...


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## Lusitania

My boss is Roman that it why I still resist it's probably my lusitanian soul. 

Here is more on the topic.


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## Outsider

lampiao said:


> If the text in this site is accurate, then Hispania would be a more proper name for the peninsula, rather than Iberia...


In Roman and post-Roman times, yes, but later Hispania/Spain gained a different connotation, as Fernando explained above.
Still, many authors do use "Spain" to mean "Iberian Peninsula", for instance foreign historians.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> Still, many authors do use "Spain" to mean "Iberian Peninsula", for instance foreign historians.



Are you serious??


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## Lusitania

not only historians, but many people in general. Many people don't see Portugal as diferent country. 

Eight years ago when I started to travel more often for professional reasons when I said that I was portuguese they would very much see us as spanish. Some encuestas with tourists in Portugal have shown that people always assumed that Portugal and Spain would be very much the same... everything until they actually visited Portugal and realized that we are diferent countries and diferent people.

It's very common, when I go abroad that people will look at me and ask if I'm spanish or when I'm asked where I come from they reply "Ah! Yo hablo español!" Or in international meetings that they'll say "So, you can seat right there next to the Spanish" or when the spanish aren't there "Maybe you could also speak a bit about Spain situation?". 

Once I arrived at a meeting in Hungary and the coordinator said that the spanish representative had suffer an accident and was at the hospital and asked me to meet her, as if as I was her family. When i arrived at the Hospital there were already two portuguese with her.


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## Outsider

Fernando said:


> Are you serious??


Especially when they're talking about periods before, say, the 13th or the 14th century. Then you will often read phrases like "Moorish Spain", or "Visigothic Spain", referring to the whole Peninsula.

In all fairness, though, I suspect that even the Portuguese of that time did not necessarily see themselves as "un-Spanish". There's a well-known passage about when the first Portuguese sailors arrived in India. Some Maghrebi traders recognized where they were from, and spoke to them in Spanish. The chronicle says the Portuguese were surprised to find someone who spoke _"our language"_, so far away.


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## Fernando

Well, ignorance is very extended. But it would be very strange to me if "authors" (written texts) would use Spain and Portugal as interchangeable.

In a way, extra-Iberians are right: none is more similar to an Spaniard than a Portuguese (and viceversa), no matter how much scorn or hate or whatever bad feelings one coudl have against the other. And none would know more about Spain than a Portuguese (and viceversa?).


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> Especially when they're talking about periods before, say, the 13th or the 14th century. Then you will often read phrases like "Moorish Spain", or "Visigothic Spain", referring to the whole Peninsula.



Well, in the 14th century "Moorish Portugal" was virtually non-existant, but it would be thoroughly stupid to talk about "visigothic Spain" (or at least, so stupid as talking about Caesar conquering France, meaning Gaul).


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## Lusitania

I wouldn't agree on the viceversa in general, as we've lived with our back turned for a long time and we don't know that much about spanish, but more of spain. For example, I never had a spanish friend until sometime ago and they were from the Basque country and Catalonia and I met them online and recently in person.

In general, I think that people assume that the spanish are the same as portuguese and viceversa. Unamuno stated some diferences and I agree with most of them, especially regarding the stereotyping of portuguese women and our moustaches


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## Outsider

Well, there _is_ an etymological connection, Fernando. The word "Spain" is derived from "Hispania"; "France" is not related to "Gaul". And the Visigoths did conquer the whole peninsula, after a while.

I don't know if your comment concerned this as well:





Outsider said:


> There's a well-known passage about when the first Portuguese sailors arrived in India. Some Maghrebi traders recognized where they were from, and spoke to them in Spanish. The chronicle says the Portuguese were surprised to find someone who spoke _"our language"_, so far away.


But let me clarify, just in case: it's a Portuguese chronicle. The Portuguese themselves did not see Portuguese and Spanish as two separate languages, necessarily. This is understandable, if you consider:

1. How close our languages still are today, especially when compared to the ones they found in India.
2. How much closer they must have been in the late 15th century.
3. That, at the time, the Iberian Peninsula was likely much more a dialect continuum than it is today.


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## Cecilio

Fernando said:


> Well, ignorance is very extended. But it would be very strange to me if "authors" (written texts) would use Spain and Portugal as interchangeable.
> 
> In a way, extra-Iberians are right: none is more similar to an Spaniard than a Portuguese (and viceversa), no matter how much scorn or hate or whatever bad feelings one coudl have against the other. And none would know more about Spain than a Portuguese (and viceversa?).



I personally think that comparing Spain and Portugal is not an easy task. As modern nations, they are complex entities, with internal variations of all kinds. I live on the other side of the peninsula, where a high percentage of the Spanish population live. Portugal is on the other side and quite far away. For example, if you look at the map, you'll see that Milan, Geneve or Lyon are nearer to Barcelona than Lisbon. Historically, the people from eastern Spain (Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Murcia, Balearic Islands) did not participate in the conquest and colonization of America and most of their interests lay in the Mediterranean, not in the West. That's why I feel that this sort of comparison between the Portuguese and the Spaniards is a bit misleading.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> Well, there _is_ an etymological connection, Fernando. The word "Spain" is derived from "Hispania"; "France" is not related to "Gaul". And the Visigoths did conquer the whole peninsula, after a while..



I notice it, but we pay the scholars for not committing such mistakes. While I would not pay much attention if one Chinese would say to me that "In the 13th century, Moorish Spain" so and so, I would demand a little more from a historian.



Outsider said:


> I don't know if your comment concerned this as well:



Not, I was not addressing your comment on Portuguese but I agree with your comments. Even today, all Iberian languages are very related (excluding Basque).


----------



## Fernando

Lusitania said:


> In general, I think that people assume that the spanish are the same as portuguese and viceversa. Unamuno stated some diferences and I agree with most of them, especially regarding the stereotyping of portuguese women and our moustaches



Personal and intellectual kinship has little to do with nationality. As the cases of mixed and international marriage can illustrate, one can find his "media naranja". Maybe it is easier to communicate with someone who is not in the raia, where there are many prejudices about how Portuguese/Spaniards are.

OF COURSE, Portuguese and Spaniards are not "the same". Castillians and extremadurans or Asturians have nothing in common. I assume a person from Porto and from Faro are very different. But the history of a person from Faro and from Murcia are very close and their knowledge about the other is far greater than in any other country.


----------



## natasha2000

Fernando said:


> I notice it, but we pay the scholars for not committing such mistakes. While I would not pay much attention if one Chinese would say to me that "In the 13th century, Moorish Spain" so and so, I would demand a little more from a historian.


And if it were a Chinese historian?


----------



## Fernando

natasha2000 said:


> And if it were a Chinese historian?



If he accepts that Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are "all the same", I would not mind.


----------



## natasha2000

Fernando said:


> If he accepts that Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are "all the same", I would not mind.


 

Even though it was just a little joke, I must say I agree with you and your attitude. 
Unfortunatelly, it happens all the time. I wouldn't know about other countries, but here generally people from both Koreas, Japan or China, are generally called "chinos", and all Slavs are called "rusos"... 

The ignorance can be really annoying...


----------



## pickypuck

fernando said:
			
		

> Maybe it is easier to communicate with someone who is not in the raia, where there are many prejudices about how Portuguese/Spaniards are.


 
My impression is just the opposite.



natasha2000 said:


> Even though it was just a little joke, I must say I agree with you and your attitude.
> Unfortunatelly, it happens all the time. I wouldn't know about other countries, but here generally people from both Koreas, Japan or China, are generally called "chinos", and all Slavs are called "rusos"...
> 
> The ignorance can be really annoying...


 
We don't have to go so far. It happens the same in Spain. For certain politicians, all people living beyond "la franja de Ponent" are Castilian.


----------



## Fernando

pickypuck said:


> My impression is just the opposite.



Note I said "maybe", addressing the comment of Lampaio of his dislike for raianos and his taste for Basques or Catalans.


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:


> That would be the easiest part: Iberia.


 
Why not TAP or Portugalia Airlines? I think that Spaniards won't be very enthusiastic with your proposal...  Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

You're right about "chinos", Natasha, even a Japanese TV show was dubbed in the early 90's here as if the people who appeared there were "chinos"; but I've never heard this thing about "Russians"...

More on-topic, why not including southern France in our brand new supercountry? It was a part of Visigothic Hispania after all... We have many things in common with them too- And, has anyone asked Moroccans?


----------



## pickypuck

Fernando said:


> Note I said "maybe", addressing the comment of Lampaio of his dislike for raianos and his taste for Basques or Catalans.


 
Oh I see. Sorry! The point is I don't see that message and my glasses are very clean  

Well, my impression indicates that there is no need for that maybe either  

¡Olé!


----------



## pickypuck

ampurdan said:


> More on-topic, why not including southern France in our brand new supercountry? It was a part of Visigothic Hispania after all...


 
And why not include all the European countries? We share the same continental History... We could have a common Parliament... let's say in Brussels or Strasbourg, or in both


----------



## Fernando

ampurdan said:


> More on-topic, why not including southern France in our brand new supercountry? It was a part of Visigothic Hispania after all... We have many things in common with them too- And, has anyone asked Moroccans?



As you possibly know, North Marocco (Tingitania) was a part of Hispania diocesis in Diocletian times.

That would be excellent, since geographical center of Iberia would be sited in Extremadura. Possibly, the capital would be Guadalupe.


----------



## almostfreebird

natasha2000 said:


> Even though it was just a little joke, I must say I agree with you and your attitude.
> Unfortunatelly, it happens all the time. I wouldn't know about other countries, but here generally people from both Koreas, Japan or China, are generally called "chinos", and all Slavs are called "rusos"...
> 
> The ignorance can be really annoying...


 
Is that a traditional thing in Spanish speaking countries? If I'm not sure whether you're Serbian or Hungarian I'd call you European or East European, if not sure whether Venezuelana or Clombiana I'd call you South American, if not sure whether Cambodian or Thai I'd call you Southeast Asian. Honestly I wouldn't be happy if you call me Chino, I'm not a ultra patriot or nationalist though.


----------



## natasha2000

almostfreebird said:


> Is that a traditional thing in Spanish speaking countries? If I'm not sure whether you're Serbian or Hungarian I'd call you European or East European, if not sure whether Venezuelana or Clombiana I'd call you South American, if not sure whether Cambodian or Thai I'd call you Southeast Asian. Honestly I wouldn't be happy if you call me Chino, I'm not a ultra patriot or nationalist though.


 
I wouldn't know if it is only Spanish weak point, but I am sure that no country or nation is resistant to the illness called ignorance. 
One point: Hungarians are not Slavs. Furthermore, they are not even Indo-European people, and Hungarian language is as close to Slavic languages as Japanese, for example...



> You're right about "chinos", Natasha, even a Japanese TV show was dubbed in the early 90's here as if the people who appeared there were "chinos"; but I've never heard this thing about "Russians"...



Yes, Ampurdan, if someone hears me speaking in Serbian, they ask me: Are you Russian? Even my late father-in-law used to call me "rusa"...
But now I am used to looks and faces of total ignorance when I say I come from Serbia... Some people don't even know it is in Europe...


----------



## Cecilio

ampurdan said:


> You're right about "chinos", Natasha, even a Japanese TV show was dubbed in the early 90's here as if the people who appeared there were "chinos".



I suppose you mean a programme called "Humor amarillo", which is actually a comic programme (it was very popular and still is: it is currently being broadcast  on a different TV channel). Comedians make wide use of these generalizations and people find them very funny. Why not? The problem is when these generalizations are used in other contexts: politics, history, ideologies, etc.


----------



## ampurdan

natasha2000 said:


> Yes, Ampurdan, if someone hears me speaking in Serbian, they ask me: Are you Russian?


 
That's not the same thing, Slavic languages may sound quite alike to our ears, just as Spanish and Portuguese might sound alike to people who don't know either; but calling all Slavs "rusos" is not a generalized thing (sadly, this thing about "chinos" was very generalized: if it hadn't been, very few people would have found funny to call any Asiatic a "chino"; it's true that TV show is broadcasted again, but now they refer to the Japanese as Japanese).


----------



## Cecilio

ampurdan said:


> it's true that TV show is broadcasted again, but now they refer to the Japanese as Japanese).



Except for the most famous character in the show: el chino Cudeiro.

Generalizations may be a problem, but they are somehow necessary for communication. We cannot always know everything in detail, we must sometimes generalize to communicate effectively.

But I think we're going a bit off-topic in this discussion. Goin back to this Portugal-Spain topic, it seems to me that these recent ideas of union, co-operation, etc. are basically based on the economy, rather than anything else (culture, language, etc.). I don't think that Portugal and Spain may one day be united as a nation, but there are a lot of important companies interested in unifying the countries economically.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

Lusitania said:


> Yes, I do believe in that, as we are already doing. Also like Lampião said, it's not about unification what we want. Although I feel much closer to spanish culture (not spanish people) than any other culture. Also, we never agreed on these concepts. Unification for the spanish means occupation for the portuguese. We don't have frontiers, we are free to visit each others countries.
> 
> Also, like tombatossals said. We do have a LOT in common and also I think that to understand ourselves we must understand the other. I would go for a compared history on both countries that both countries would agree upon. As our history doesn't fit with yours, so maybe finding a common perspective would be important. As in many other things that have contributed to the invisibility of portuguese people and facts in Spain.



Actually, I don't think peoples have much to do with political definitions. Where I do live about, to say, one third of people ore more are of Portuguese heritage, work in Portugal, are married to Portuguese people or whatever; and the opposite goes for the other side of the border. This can't be said of Catalonia, that is in Spain but it also is 1000km away.

But there's I reason that would make me to vote NO in a supossing unification referendum: I don't want to live in a country with 10 million more nationalists by no means unless the political structure was different enough from the one I know.


----------



## ampurdan

I thought there had been some Catalan immigration to Huelva sometime ago in recent History.

Your argument about nationalists, Dr. Quizá, makes no sense to me. Portuguese can be as nationalists as Spaniards or French.


----------



## Dr. Quizá

ampurdan said:


> I thought there had been some Catalan immigration to Huelva sometime ago in recent History.



I think they went to Almería and then some of them to Huelva some time after, but not homogeneously in all the province and that is not a continous phenomenon as the transborder one is.



> Your argument about nationalists, Dr. Quizá, makes no sense to me. Portuguese can be as nationalists as Spaniards or French.



Indeed, but "peripheral" nationalisms do have more more bias and are more prone to practice "antipolitics" just because they have power in a field they supposedly reject.


----------



## jess oh seven

i read this in El País. they're two separate countries that share a related language and there are similarities in some of their cultural roots.... but i still see them as separate and i believe they should continue to be. when you're in Portugal, you know you're in Portugal, when you're in Spain, you know you're in Spain... they're different. 

you don't see Germany or somewhere trying eat up all its neighbouring countries just because they share borders and may speak other dialects of German or other Germanic languages. 

i love Portugal. it hate that it's constantly overshadowed by the sprawling mass of Spain and that the Portuguese language faces a similar problem in relation to Spanish.


----------



## Fernando

Well, I agree with Dr. Quizás argument. For jess oh seven quietness, nobody is thinking (seriously) in such a merge.

I would like to focus Cecilio's comment. What it is important to me it is the economic union. It is a pity is that Portugal is not sharing Spain's development in the last 10 years. And the things wouldbe 

Every time a Spanish company takes a stock in a Portuguese company we hear about "Spanish invasion". 

I am very happy of E.on taking Endesa (eventually). Of course, I would be happier if a Spanish company would buy out Endesa, but only if it bids over 35 euros (E.on bid).


----------



## almostfreebird

Sorry for off-topic again, but I got curious about "Humor Amarillo" and checked it out and laughed my ass off to find out It's a "Takeshi's Castle".
I can't believe it is broadcasted in Spain. They were a group of stupidest and craziest comedians, though Takeshi Kitano who was leading the group became worldly famous movie director because he got the most valuable prize in Venice Film Festival(his movie was not comedy, it was serious and violent). I still wonder who El Chino Cudeiro, is he Takeshi Kitano?


----------



## ampurdan

I don't know, Almostfreebird, he's so grown-up in your link's picture


Dr. Quizá, I assume you mean Catalan, Basque and Galician nationalisms when you talk about "peripheral", but what do you mean by "antipolitics" and "power in a field they supposedly reject"?


----------



## Lusitania

ampurdan said:


> Your argument about nationalists, Dr. Quizá, makes no sense to me. Portuguese can be as nationalists as Spaniards or French.


 
I think he meant more nationalist. Well, it could be. 

Of course we are different people even inside our own families. And a Portuguese from Faro is different from a person from Porto. I was born and live in Lisbon all my life but my family comes from the Algarve, I can sense the difference. Although I love visiting Andalucia or Extremadura and I feel more at home than in Porto but I don't have that feeling of belonging around people. I keep going there on a monthly basis and I don't know anyone but I manage to have them in Catalonia, Galicia or the Basque country where I've been once or twice in a lifetime. So I understand Lampiao says, it's usually very good with the Catalans and the Basques, also with Galicians although I believe that they've been more involved with the north of Portugal.

Many differences inside this peninsula.


----------



## Lusitania

jess oh seven said:


> when you're in Portugal, you know you're in Portugal, when you're in Spain, you know you're in Spain... they're different.


 
Maybe you could share some more on this perspective. It would be nice to have an input from the outside. 

My Spanish teacher gave us a questionnaire yesterday on the Spanish way of living (no bailadoras or toreros!) and to sign in if we think that it's the same in Portugal at the same time he said "of course, it's the same".


----------



## broud

> i love Portugal. it hate that it's constantly overshadowed by the sprawling mass of Spain and that the Portuguese language faces a similar problem in relation to Spanish.



I cannot understand your claim here. What problems is facing Portuguese language?  :O As far as I know, it is the second most spoken Romance language in the world-- you can read that in some SIL reports at least. So, if French or Italian (or German or...) which are less "popular" languages are not menaced by Spanish in any way, how could Portuguese be? 

And, anyway, Scotland being overshadowed by England could be a problem, since it is real. But I can't really believe that Portugal is overshadowed by Spain or anything like that. For example, France is undoubtely more important/famous/respected/whatever you want than Spain. But I don't know if it's the same for Portugal & Spain. I'm sure that not for football "aficionados".

Bye


----------



## Lusitania

broud said:


> I cannot understand your claim here. What problems is facing Portuguese language? :O As far as I know, it is the second most spoken Romance language in the world-- you can read that in some SIL reports at least. So, if French or Italian (or German or...) which are less "popular" languages are not menaced by Spanish in any way, how could Portuguese be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not as close as Portuguese to Spanish. If you google the title of this thread you will find many foreros writing on how Iberia should be and how Spanish should be the may language. If you go to Portuguese fóruns you can see people write in English, Spanish and even French and we don't care. Write in Portuguese or even Català or Euskera and you know what you will get. It's not pleasant to read, no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, anyway, Scotland being overshadowed by England could be a problem, since it is real. But I can't really believe that Portugal is overshadowed by Spain or anything like that. For example, France is undoubtely more important/famous/respected/whatever you want than Spain. But I don't know if it's the same for Portugal & Spain. I'm sure that not for football "aficionados".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was in an online spanish fórum while Portugal was playing with France, as I also was a hincha for Spain. Lets say that we have spanish aficionados when we win.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## natasha2000

Lusitania said:


> If you go to Portuguese fóruns you can see people write in English, Spanish and even French and we don't care. Write in Portuguese or even Català or Euskera and you know what you will get. It's not pleasant to read, no.


 
Excuse me, but this has nothing to do with languages in geopardy of disappearing. People speak in French, English and Spanish because these are languages that are popular and are learnt by most of foreigners, but this does not mean that Portugese, Catalan or Euskera will disappear. As long as there are Portugeses Catalans or Basks, those languages will be spoken, and of course, it depends only on them if their language will stay live and kicking or will vanish and melt with the other language. 
It would be the same if I claimed that because many people learn Russian as a foreign language, Serbian is in geopardy. This is ridiculous. Furthermore, Portugese has an advantage comapred with Catalan and Euskera because it has its own state - Portugal. Catalan and Euskera have to survive in the same country simultaneously with another statal language. As far as now, Catalan* is very live and kicking, and I see no problem to continue to be. So if Catalan managed this in these circumstances, why Portugese wouldn't do the same? How many Portugese are there? 10 million? This is a pretty good figure, if you ask me.

*I don't want to say anything about Euskera, since I don't have enough knowledge about the state of this language.


----------



## Cecilio

Lusitania said:


> broud said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are not as close as Portuguese to Spanish. If you google the title of this thread you will find many foreros writing on how Iberia should be and how Spanish should be the may language. If you go to Portuguese fóruns you can see people write in English, Spanish and even French and we don't care. Write in Portuguese or even Català or Euskera and you know what you will get. It's not pleasant to read, no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a bit lost here. What do you mean exactly? People in these forums use the language they think appropriate, with some restrictions (English only, Spanish only forums, etc.). I don't see any particular attitudes among Spanish foreros in connection with language choice.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lusitania

Natasha, you misunderstood what I wrote or probably I wasn't clear. The overshadowing in this case is an idea of trying to make others feel invisible. It's changing, it's better now, but still happens.

Portuguese is spoken by over 200 million people, not only in Portugal.


----------



## Lusitania

Cecilio said:


> Lusitania said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a bit lost here. What do you mean exactly? People in these forums use the language they think appropriate, with some restrictions (English only, Spanish only forums, etc.). I don't see any particular attitudes among Spanish foreros in connection with language choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean this forum, here it's quite polite and nice and it's a good oportunity to discuss this but just google portugués y español or other similar words and choose groups or other online groups.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cecilio

Lusitania said:


> Cecilio said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean this forum, here it's quite polite and nice and it's a good oportunity to discuss this but just google portugués y español or other similar words and choose groups or other online groups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I thought you meant WR forums. In any case, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from forums in general, especially because there are so many and of so many different kinds that it is very difficult to analyse them properly, or make generalizations about them.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lusitania

I agree with you, but still they mirror the societies we live in. Although we wish they could be diferent. Here it's perfect. If it was like this in general I would vote for Iberia right now  If all the spanish people would learn portuguese as well.


----------



## Outsider

Lusitania said:


> I agree with you, but still they mirror the societies we live in.


If you're talking about Internet forums, I have serious doubts that they do mirror society very well. I say this as someone who has joined half a dozen forums. 
I think that Internet forums attract special kinds of people. The more educated and curious (like here), or the more argumentative (or just plain imature), and those who have an agenda to push. 
The Internet is furthermore a very selective medium. You have to be able to pay your phone bills, to get in.


----------



## Lusitania

Well, I also went to Spain today and had to listen to some "theories" on being the portuguese él castellano mal hablado and how Spain is the hand that feeds Portugal. 

Will this ever change?


----------



## Cecilio

Lusitania said:


> Well, I also went to Spain today and had to listen to some "theories" on being the portuguese él castellano mal hablado and how Spain is the hand that feeds Portugal.
> 
> Will this ever change?



I don't know where you went exactly, but I don't think I know anybody with such ideas in the area where I live. And in the street you may hear all kind of things, including very stupid ones. Here, there and everywhere.


----------



## natasha2000

Lusitania said:


> Natasha, you misunderstood what I wrote or probably I wasn't clear. The overshadowing in this case is an idea of trying to make others feel invisible. It's changing, it's better now, but still happens.
> 
> Portuguese is spoken by over 200 million people, not only in Portugal.


 
I was reffering only to your remark about suposed geopardy in which Portugese language is now. Nothing more. Of course, I forgot tomention all the people out of Portugal whose mother tongue is Portugese. Then your claim about linguistic geopardy is even less understandable.


----------



## natasha2000

Lusitania said:


> Well, I also went to Spain today and had to listen to some "theories" on being the portuguese él castellano mal hablado and how Spain is the hand that feeds Portugal.
> 
> Will this ever change?


Stupid people are everywhere, they are not exclusive characteristic of Spain. The only thing you can do is not to pay attention to such stupidities. Many of them do it just to annoy you and to see you angry. Don't let them have it.


----------



## Lusitania

> Stupid people are everywhere, they are not exclusive characteristic of Spain


. 

I travel abroad every two months and have been to many countries and never had this. 



> The only thing you can do is not to pay attention to such stupidities. Many of them do it just to annoy you and to see you angry. Don't let them have it.


 
That's what I do, I always did and I'll keep doing.


----------



## Cecilio

I wonder if Spain and Portugal have ever been united as a sports team, even for friendly games. I doubt it.

It's funny because the national sides of Portugal and Spain, especially the football ones, are by no means equally popular. It looks like everybody in Protugal supports the national team, whereas in Spain there are many many people who don't care about the Spanbish side at all. An increasing number of people in Spain nowadays would prefer to have their own national teams, especially in Catalonia and the Basque country. I wouldn't be surprised if in the following years Catalonia played international competitions as an independent country. So the tendency seems to be towards separation rather than union.


----------



## natasha2000

Lusitania said:


> .
> I travel abroad every two months and have been to many countries and never had this.


No, of course not. But they do other kinds of stupidities.  
As Forest Gump said: Stupid is he who does stupid thigs. 
Being stupid is an universal characteristic.  But each stupid has his own stupid things. 




> That's what I do, I always did and I'll keep doing


Good for you. Sometimes is hard, I know... But as long as you try, everything will be ok.


----------



## broud

Hello,

Lusitania where did you heard those "theories about Portuguese"? I can suppose that they were joking about the language because "written Portuguese" is so similar to Spanish and anyway we can't understand a word when you speak! At least that's true for me. 

So, "es como el español pero mal hablado" might be something a Spaniard would say in order to acknowledge their proximity, in a "funny way". But no way anybody in Spain thinks that Portuguese is "a kind of Spanish". So despite the fact that you can feel that 'joke' rather unpleasant it doesn't have any real meaning in the way we look at Portugal.

In your case I suspect they were just teasing you or other Portuguese people.  I never heard a Spanish saying that we feed Portugal or any other country. Indeed most people in Spain thinks that the EU has been feeding us for a long time. So even if those people think that, it is not representative either. Maybe they were some old-fashioned fascists who firmly support the "Pink legend" about Spain, or just people saying: hey, we're poor but they're poorer. Anyway, that's the same everywhere. People in Aragon 'despise' Navarreans, French despise Spanish, 'Madrileños' despise all the others ... Or it kinda looks like. But not a big deal.


----------



## natasha2000

Broud, the accent is put on the word "malhablado" and not "como español". I find it very offensive. I also heard those kind of comments from Spanish people, and I can tell you it is not pleasant, not even for my foreigner's ears even though I have nothing to do with Portugese. And if this joke doesn't have to do with how Spanish people feel about Portugese, then, why this joke exists, anyway?


----------



## pickypuck

There are of course differences in culture, thinking and the like, but not physical differences, which were those that you mentioned. I see everyday lots of Portuguese and Spanish people, because I live just in the border between the two countries, and if you don't hear them, you can't know where they are from.


----------



## natasha2000

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven" (M.5.3)


----------



## Lusitania

> Lusitania where did you heard those "theories about Portuguese"?


 
Many places around Spain, more in some regions than others. Also online if you google portugues y español you can read lots of things. I don't do that anymore, because it makes me really mad. And it's not worth it.



> So, "es como el español pero mal hablado" might be something a Spaniard would say in order to acknowledge their proximity, in a "funny way". But no way anybody in Spain thinks that Portuguese is "a kind of Spanish". So despite the fact that you can feel that 'joke' rather unpleasant it doesn't have any real meaning in the way we look at Portugal.


 
With this encuesta, what I read and hear from Spanish is to turn us into an autonomous community and that we should learn Spanish as it would be the official language. Blá blá blá. 
Ending this silly jokes would be a good begining for neighbouring healthy relationships.



> In your case I suspect they were just teasing you or other Portuguese people. I never heard a Spanish saying that we feed Portugal or any other country. Indeed most people in Spain thinks that the EU has been feeding us for a long time. So even if those people think that, it is not representative either. Maybe they were some old-fashioned fascists who firmly support the "Pink legend" about Spain, or just people saying: hey, we're poor but they're poorer. Anyway, that's the same everywhere. People in Aragon 'despise' Navarreans, French despise Spanish, 'Madrileños' despise all the others ... Or it kinda looks like. But not a big deal.


 
I don't despise anyone and we don't intend to do it. I guess that I've just heard it too many times.


----------



## Lusitania

> There are of course differences in culture, thinking and the like, but not physical differences, which were those that you mentioned. I see everyday lots of Portuguese and Spanish people, because I live just in the border between the two countries, and if you don't hear them, you can't know where they are from.


 
That's true, even in Lisbon, you can't tell and most of the time we feel like a bilingual city as both languages are spoken and everybody understands each other. 




> And if this joke doesn't have to do with how Spanish people feel about Portugese, then, why this joke exists, anyway?


 
Thanks Natasha, that's precisely my point. Lets end this stereotyping if we don't want to live with our backs turned.

I wasn't here but I can only imagine what this creature came here to write...I would have enjoyed to read his "spam" or maybe not


----------



## Ambrosio

This is the program of the TVE-2 (Spanish TV, channel 2) for tonight about this controversial topic. Schedule of emission: 20:30 GMT.
You can find this information in the teletex of TVE.
Greetings!


----------



## Outsider

Ambrosio said:


> This is the program of the TVE-2 (Spanish TV, channel 2) for tonight about this controversial topic.


This topic is controversial?! I hadn't noticed...


----------



## Lusitania

Ambrosio said:


> for tonight about this controversial topic. Schedule of emission: 20:30 GMT.


 
Still? Here it was only talked about on the newspaper that week. It's not that controversial here.
Please let us know how it went. I'm curious now.


----------



## pickypuck

It wasn't a programme about that topic. That was an excuse to make a report about the present situation of Portugal through different short interviews to different Portuguese people (businesspeople, intellectuals, etc.)


----------



## Lusitania

What was the outcome? are we still primitive and poor and Spain is still the hand that feed us?

Or did it also mentioned that we are one of the countries with shortest babies mortality rates in the world, better than the EU average, that portuguese women, after the danish women are the women who work more. That Portugal is leading in the EU with the number of women cientists that are now being hired all over the world? 

Or that we are the world lider of tecnology in transformadores with
_EFACEC_
 
And also the world lider in the production of fieltro for hats with _FEPSA_

Did they also mentioned that we have an enterprise that creates games for mobiles for half a dozen world markets _YDreams_
.
And that we creates a system in which through your mobile you can choose the cinema that you want to go and pick up not only the movie but the chair that you want to seat in? _MOBYCOMP_
 
Did they also mention that we created a biometrics system to pay in gas stations and that or gas systme has wan several international awards?
_GALP_
 
That we have one the best world ATM systems where it's possible to do trasactions in Germany, UK or the USA? _SIBS_
 
That we started a revolution on the finantial system in Europe, having the best banking agencies in Europe? (Three banks on the top five)? 
_BCP, BES, CGD_
 
Did they talked about the pioneer steps we have achieve on the investigation of production of energy through the waves of the sea?

And that we also have an enterprise that analyses the ADN of plants and animals and sends results to clients all over europe via internet?
_Stab Vida_
 
Did they mentioned the group of enterprises that have developed innovative systems for the management of clients and stocks to small and medium enterprises?
_Altitude Software, Primavera Software, Critical Software,_ 

That we have several enterprises working for NASA and ohter international clients as demanding?
_Out Systems, WEDO_
 
Or that we developed a system to on high ways (portagens).
_BRISA_
 
Or that it's going to launch a very innovative drug anti-epilepsia in the world market? 
_BIAL_
__ 
World leader of Cork. 
_Grupo Amorim_
 
Or that produces a wine that has wan to the best spanish wines twice.
_Quinta do Monte d'Oiro_
__ 
Or that has already several enterprises working in the European Space agency. 
_Activespace Technologies, Deimos Engenharia, Lusospace, Skysoft, Space Services_
 
Or had created and developed the best world system of pre-paid cards for mobiles.

<FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2><I><U>Portugal Telecom Inova


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## Lusitania

Sorry for the mistakes while writing but it's difficult to wirte so much is such a short time.

All countries have better and worst things but I never understood why in Spanish newspaper while treating statistics we never come out. Especially the cases of Portuguese women we are even more invisible.

I'd like to know more about that tv show, they should pass it here as well. Lets see if Spain complies with the treaties on tv and you could have portuguese channels and we can see some more than TVE international or TVG. Maybe that could improve the knowledge of both countries.


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## pickypuck

As I told you, the programme was about how the Portuguese businesspeople and intellectuals they interviewed saw their own country, how they tried to be innovative in their enterprises, etc. The people they interviewed were free to mention all the achievements you list but it would have been very strange that the designer of the Portuguese National Team T-shirts spoke about GALP or wines, and not about fashion. I don't remember the names of the interviewed people but I do that the owner of Grupo Amorim was among them. 

Here I can get all the Portuguese channels and those subscribed to Ditigal+ can get RTP internacional everywhere. Obviously the farther you live from a border, the more difficult is to get channels. That happens everywhere. 

About the statistics in newspapers or magazines, I very often see Portugal listed. And if not, maybe Belgium or Germany are not listed either. There's no need to be that picky.

I really often hear the thing you comment about "the feeding hand", but referred to my autonomous community and said by people from the rich regions you are so comfortable in. But as it's said in Spanish "a palabras necias, oídos sordos".


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## Lusitania

About this issue today in Publico again. There is a very good piece by Miguel Mora the correspondente of El Pais.



> There's no need to be that picky.


 
Sorry, nothing personal. But like spanish people don't like to be though as going around dressed as toreros or bailadoras, we don't like to be called "muertos de hambre". It may not be in your region, but in general we get that a lot. 

I go to Spain at least twice a month and I really think that we can't think about cooperation if we keep having this kind of attitude. 

Iberia is an idea and it's moving, there is a clear evolution and it's scaring both people on´both sides of the frontiers. But there is a lot to change on peoples mentalities before we go further with anything.

Don't make say more than I want, because I know that it's not your fault that stupid and ignorant people exist in every country.


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## pickypuck

If you read what it's said in forums, you will find lots of barbarities about everything. I've also seen lots of forums with lots of insults coming from the other side of the border. One should forget forums and see the projects both sides are carrying out together (Interreg), the interest of people for Portuguese language here, etc., etc. The fact that Portuguese women could have their babies here after the closure of the Maternidade de Elvas is co-operation in my opinion. But if you prefer forums it's your choice.

I've read the articles and there are so puzzling things like "to complete the peninsula is a desire that have been in the subconcious of Spanish people for centuries", countries must be homogeneous, the castelhanização (as if we were all Castilian), etc. Too nationalist for my taste.


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## Lusitania

[





> If you read what it's said in forums, you will find lots of barbarities about everything. I've also seen lots of forums with lots of insults coming from the other side of the border.


 
Well, I don't want to get into this, but I have too many bad stories to tell. And I've heard and seen too many scenes. I went to Spain for the first time when I was 7 years old and my parents got finally divorced and my father took me on a weekend. The experience was so bad that I only set a foot in Spain when I was around 21. I now enjoy going to Spain very much and try to go as often as I can. I just try to avoid the spanish.



> One should forget forums and see the projects both sides are carrying out together (Interreg), the interest of people for Portuguese language here, etc., etc. The fact that Portuguese women could have their babies here after the closure of the Maternidade de Elvas is co-operation in my opinion. But if you prefer forums it's your choice.


 
I hope that the Interreg will be positive, I also have this hope. Lets see if in the future it won't bring more problems.
About the women from Elvas, as European we should be able to give birth wherever we wish. But that's also what I mean with cooperation. Like the water agreements, to share natural and human and material resources.



> I've read the articles and there are so puzzling things like "to complete the peninsula is a desire that have been in the subconcious of Spanish people for centuries", countries must be homogeneous, the castelhanização (as if we were all Castilian), etc. Too nationalist for my taste.


 
Yes, I've also heard that syndrome of amputation thing. We aren't homogeneous here in Portugal, but there is still a strong common identity. I believe we do have many things in common, portuguese and spanish and we never dealt with it in a healthy way. Maybe now it could be possible. But there is a lot to change on people's mentality.


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## pickypuck

Lusitania said:


> [
> 
> Well, I don't want to get into this, but I have too many bad stories to tell. And I've heard and seen too many scenes. I went to Spain for the first time when I was 7 years old and my parents got finally divorced and my father took me on a weekend. The experience was so bad that I only set a foot in Spain when I was around 21. I now enjoy going to Spain very much and try to go as often as I can. I just try to avoid the spanish.


 
I'm very sorry about your bad experiences, as other foreros and I told you before but I'm afraid these things fit better in the thread Racism in Spain. There people have told the bad things they experienced here and commented on how bad we are.




			
				Lusitania said:
			
		

> About the women from Elvas, as European we should be able to give birth wherever we wish. But that's also what I mean with cooperation.


 
I would agree if we had a European Health System and every citizen contributed equally to it. Sadly it is no the case now.




			
				Lusitania said:
			
		

> Yes, I've also heard that syndrome of amputation thing. We aren't homogeneous here in Portugal, but there is still a strong common identity.


 
I don't deny that but the article denies all the identities from here. It doesn't say Andaluciação or Extremenhização, for example. I simply referred to that.

Anyway I have the feeling from some posts ago that this is going off topic so I won't add anything else.


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## Lusitania

> pickypuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm very sorry about your bad experiences, as other foreros and I told you before but I'm afraid these things fit better in the thread Racism in Spain. There people have told the bad things they experienced here and commented on how bad we are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without any irony, I would say that not all, but so many still. It has improved a lot but still we are many times treated as inferiors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't deny that but the article denies all the identities from here. It doesn't say Andaluciação or Extremenhização, for example. I simply referred to that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As here, the diferent parts of the country. I was born in Lisbon and my family comes from the South of Portugal, I feel diferent from a person from Minho but we're portuguese no matter what.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I have the feeling from some posts ago that this is going off topic so I won't add anything else.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't agree with you, I think there a lot to this "portugal and spain: one country?" and I don't think we went off topic. Although we are just talking about what separates us and not much of what we have in common.
Click to expand...


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## pickypuck

Lusitania said:
			
		

> Without any irony, I would say that not all, but so many still. It has improved a lot but still we are many times treated as inferiors.


 
I keep on thinking that this is for the thread Racism in Spain.



			
				Lusitania said:
			
		

> As here, the diferent parts of the country. I was born in Lisbon and my family comes from the South of Portugal, I feel diferent from a person from Minho but we're portuguese no matter what.


 
You are Portuguese, but we all are not Castilian. When the article used the word castelhanização and not espanholização meant that.



			
				Lusitania said:
			
		

> I don't agree with you, I think there a lot to this "portugal and spain: one country?" and I don't think we went off topic. Although we are just talking about what separates us and not much of what we have in common.


 
I've not talked about what separates us in any of my posts.


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## Lusitania

> pickypuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I keep on thinking that this is for the thread Racism in Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I already replied there. I think this could talked about here as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've not talked about what separates us in any of my posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did and you kept replying.
> 
> If you don't want to talk about it any longer, lets just drop it here then.
Click to expand...


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## pickypuck

Lusitania said:


> I did and you kept replying.


 
Yes, I kept replying that you shouldn't focus on the forums or your bad experiences and see all the projects we are carrying out together, the great interests for the language, etc. But you insist and insist on your bad experiences and finally you say we are just talking about what separates us  I think the pronoun for your sentence is I.

I accept your invitation of dropping it here.


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## Lusitania

> pickypuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I kept replying that you shouldn't focus on the forums or your bad experiences and see all the projects we are carrying out together, the great interests for the language, etc. But you insist and insist on your bad experiences and finally you say we are just talking about what separates us  I think the pronoun for your sentence is I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we need a truth and reconciliation committee first
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept your invitation of dropping it here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Consider it droped.
> 
> Sem ressentimentos.
> 
> Uma boa noite para ti, bons sonhos desse lado da fronteira.
> 
> Beijinhos
Click to expand...


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## Pedrovski

This whole stream of comments about a perceived inferiority by some spaniards in regards to the portuguese is absurd. There are prejudiced and unprejudiced people in each country. 
Many portuguese make stupid jokes about alentejanos' "slowness". Would you generalize and call the entire portuguese nation prejudiced?

This topic is pretty irrelevant the way I see it. Portugal is never going to form a political federation with spain simply because of the weight of history.

There are no greatly compelling reasons for the creation of a Union either way: thanks to the EU, the common market is already a reality. Given the high degree of autonomy Spain grants its regions, the change would be more symbolic than meaningful.


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## gracilianoramos

Hola/Bom dia:

Yo soy español y vivo desde hace tiempo en Salamanca (aunque nací en el norte de España), a solo 100 km de la raya de Portugal. Siempre estuve interesado por el iberismo, esa ideología que apoya la amistad y el intercambio hispano-luso incluso en términos políticos y económicos.

Quando era estudante de Salamanca (durante os oitentas) visitei duas vezes Portugal e achei que a idéia iberista estava muito desacreditada. Em outras visitas notei que havia uma possivel diferença entre a direita e a esquerda politicas nesta questão, mas terminei por esquecer totalmente a idéia.

Cuál fue mi sorpresa cuando recientemente un periódico portugués hizo una famosa encuesta que resucitaba el iberismo por parte de los mismos portugueses. Me pareció genial, y por eso querría apoyar la idea con estas propuestas:

   1) La causa de la pobreza del este de Portugal y del oeste de España es la impermeabilidad histórica de la frontera hispano-lusa. Por lo tanto, el objetivo principal del iberismo es el progreso de esta región.

   2) Para lutar contra o desentendimento entre os arraianos de uma e outra parte da Raia precisa-se primeiro de uma aproximação cultural entre ambos povos.

   3) Todo español del oeste debe saber portugués y conocer los aspectos principales de la cultura portuguesa.

   4) Todo português de leste deve saber espanhol e conhecer os aspectos principais da cultura espanhola.

   Dejo estas propuestas a la consideración del fórum.

   Gracias/Obrigado.


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## Lusitania

GracilianoRamos, 

I just woke up and I'm not sure whether I'm in East, West or South. 

De acuerdo con tus propuestas, me caen bíen.

Pero, me pregunto por que siempre que hay noticias de aliazas Portugal España hay Iberistas que salen del armario cada vez con más fuerza.

Por ejemplo ...

Un abrazo


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## Rodrigo_de_Burgos

I hate to point this out, but Spain and Portugal were once one kingdom. Food for thought.


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## maxiogee

Rodrigo_de_Burgos said:


> I hate to point this out, but Spain and Portugal were once one kingdom. Food for thought.



Why is it food for thought?
Kingdoms are a thing of the past.


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## Rodrigo_de_Burgos

What was ment by it was , the two being one again in not such a weird thought.


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## cuchuflete

Rodrigo_de_Burgos said:


> I hate to point this out, but Spain and Portugal were once one kingdom. Food for thought.


 Why not point out who controlled much of the peninsula before the reconquest?   It is no more and no less useful in a conversation in this century.   It's more food for someone who has made up their mind then for one who is still thinking, it seems.


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## Rodrigo_de_Burgos

That is true, the Moors, controled most of southern Spain( Madrid south).But lets be honest, it was a 400 year fight with the north and when the Castilians tokk it back they were very hard on the Spanish Moors, killing a great number of them.


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## cuchuflete

yJust to clarify the facts, Portugal was a totally independent country in the twelfth century, long before Spain became a united nation.  Parts of Portugal were under the real or nominal control of the Kingdom of León earlier, but that was not Spain, so your original statement is incorrect.

Far more important than what happened hundreds of years ago are the thoughts of the Portuguese and Spanish people today.


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## Rodrigo_de_Burgos

I agree, what they want today is what is important, however, if we go with that for a second, it could realy change the face of western Europe.And yes, your correct on Portugal never being a part of "Spain", but they were ruled by Castile and Leon.


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## Outsider

Portugal was politically a part of Spain for sixty years (late 16th to mid 17th century), but the "marriage" ended in divorce. That's food for thought, too.


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## cuchuflete

More food for thought--
There may be cases of merged states that have been great successes.  Enforced combinations tend to fail.  Look at the short-lived United Arab Republic.  "The former" Yugoslavia is another.   Maine was once "owned" by Massachusetts.


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## Macunaíma

Outsider said:


> Portugal was joined with Spain for half a century, once. As far as I know, the resulting united kingdom was known as "Spain".


 
Let's not forget that during that period the colonial policies of both countries were run separately, otherwise Brazil would not exist today as the odd one out in an almost entirely Spanish speaking Latin America. As a matter of fact, it was during that time that Brazil expanded its territory towards Spanish possessions in South America, and when the Portuguese rule was restored, we "forgot" to give it back.

Another detail: during the time Spain and Portugal were united under the same king, the prohibition for non-Portuguese Europeans to land in Brazil were strictly maintained... although not observed by the French who founded Rio de Janeiro, the Dutch who invaded Pernambuco and the English pirates who visited São Vicente on a regular basis.


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