# pizza



## Dminor

I'm trying to say "pizza" in Latin, and I can't nor want to use a Vatican dictionary, so I figured I'd create a word as if the word pizza derived from that. My question is: what would be the most appropriate form? What sound changes resulted in "zz"? 

One I could think of: Pidia, like "Medio --> Mezzo".  There must be better options though.


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## brian

Ciao

There are a number of Latin letter combinations that produced _z_'s, such as the _-*di*- >> -*zz*-_ one that you mentioned.  Another is _-*ti*- >> -*z*- _in _for*ti*a _(by way of _fortis, -e_) _>> for*z*a_.  Also _-*di*- >> -*z*- _in _pran*di*um >> pran*z*o_.

With these examples in mind, we could come up with something like: _pidia _(which you suggested), _pitia, pindia, _maybe even _pintia, pindia, _etc.

Now this is where etymology comes in.  I'm pretty sure _pizza_ derives from either the Greek _pitta_ (hence the modern _pita_ bread) or the Latin _pinsere_ (_to stamp, pound, crush_).  The _pitia_ guess I threw out above seems to work well with the Greek _pit(t)a_ theory, but I assume you want to stay along the Latin route.  Therefore, my suggestion would be _pinsa_.  I don't think _pinsia_ would be right because I think the _-ns-_ alone (without the _i_) would be enough to change into _-zz-_.

It makes sense to me: _pi*ns*a >> pi*zz*a._  I suppose it would literally mean "something used for stamping, crushing, or pounding," though maybe also "something which is stamped, crushed, or pounded."  These kind of bring to mind the pizza-making process anyway.

What do you reckon?


Brian


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## jazyk

I reckon I'm impressed!


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## Dminor

Me too!  I will use _pinsa_.  Thanks very much!


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## Outsider

brian8733 said:


> Now this is where etymology comes in.  I'm pretty sure _pizza_ derives from either the Greek _pitta_ (hence the modern _pita_ bread) or the Latin _pinsere_ (_to stamp, pound, crush_).  The _pitia_ guess I threw out above seems to work well with the Greek _pit(t)a_ theory, but I assume you want to stay along the Latin route.  Therefore, my suggestion would be _pinsa_.  I don't think _pinsia_ would be right because I think the _-ns-_ alone (without the _i_) would be enough to change into _-zz-_.


 In the Romance languages, Latin intervocalic _-ns-_ usually became _-s-_, not _-z-_ or _-zz-_. E.g., Spanish _mesa_, from _mensa_.

Why reverse-engineer the word, though? Why not "borrow" it from modern Italian? 

Let's see... We know that in loanwords from ancient Greek, zeta became Z, and zeta probably used to be pronounced either [dz] or [zd]. So why not treat the "zz" as a Greek zeta (since double Z was not used in ancient Latin), and make it _piza_?


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## Flaminius

The past participle of _pinsere_ is _pistum_.  Is it possible to derive a feminine noun *_pistia _from the p.p. and assume that it turned later into _pizza_?


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## BlueWolf

Flaminius said:


> The past participle of _pinsere_ is _pistum_.  Is it possible to derive a feminine noun *_pistia _from the p.p. and assume that it turned later into _pizza_?



Sti+vowel doesn't usually change into z in Italian.


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## Joca

Quoting from Webster International Dictionary:

<< Pizza [Italian _pizza_ from (assumed) Vulgar Latin _picea _perhaps intended as a translation of Modern Greek _pitta ...._] ... >>

I would use, therefore, _picea _or, depending on the context, the very Italian word: "pizza". 

What are you planning to write, after all? Or are you just looking for a word?

JC


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## Dminor

Well, I just wanted to say I ate pizza to someone, in Latin.  And I thought it would be nice to use a backformation form instead of the modern word.

http://www.etimo.it/?term=pizza&find=Cerca tells us it derived from pinza (and still lives on like that in some dialects), which, I take it, was pinsa before... otherwise it should have been a Greek loan word, but that would have to be pinza, not pitta.


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## Joca

Dminor said:


> Well, I just wanted to say I ate pizza to someone, in Latin.  And I thought it would be nice to use a backformation form instead of the modern word.
> 
> http://www.etimo.it/?term=pizza&find=Cerca tells us it derived from pinza (and still lives on like that in some dialects), which, I take it, was pinsa before... otherwise it should have been a Greek loan word, but that would have to be pinza, not pitta.



This poses very interesting problems. Was there anything like the modern pizza when Latin was still in force? Possibly no, because there were no tomatoes! You could use a "backformation" form, as you put it, or whatever, but are you sure that it will give you the exact meaning, idea or representation you are looking for? It is just like talking about computers in Latin: what word are you going to use? Perhaps you'd have to fall back upon a short description: "a machine that makes calculations very quickly", but of course it is not only that. All in all, I would rather say "pizza". It seems to be a neologism, anyway.

And what if you interlocutor asks you: what kind of pizza was it? How would you go on with Latin?

Just a few thoughts.

JC


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## Dminor

Well, officially we'd have to look it up in the Vatican dictionary of course. But the problem with that for me is that that delivers descriptions rather than new names, like your computer-example (which by the way would be "instrumentum computatorium" according to the Vaticans). Oh, I should have looked in my summary-dictionary of the real Vatican dictionary earlier: it gives us the word for pizza too (it's so small I thought it wouldn't be in there)!  Namely _placenta compressa_. A pizzabaker (?) is _scriblitarius_ and a pizzeria is _taberna scriblitaria_. Oh my.  Placenta compressa, being one of those descriptions, is rather long for 'pizza'. Just like 'ignitabulum nicotianum' for 'lighter', or 'lavatio in aquae deiectu' for 'shower'. But happily they make up neologisms as well, like 'autocinetum' for 'car' and 'pediludum' for 'soccer'. I'd use those, but I'm not sure about the "word" for shower. 

And how would I continue a pizza-conversation? Well, if it's just a name, I guess I'd simply Latinise that a bit. I ate a Margherita, so I'd say Margerita. If it describes something (quattro formaggi, for example), I'd translate it (quattuor casei, or maybe a genitive). In case that isn't possible with classical Latin, I'd look if the Vatican has a nice suggestion, and if it has not, I'd make up a very short description, or a backformation myself (at least if it remains recognisable).


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