# Russian participle (e.g. молящий) - comparison and formation of adverb



## Galant Elefant

Hey guys!
I have a grammar question concerning the Russian present active imperfective participle.
I have studied quite a lot of Russian grammar including the four participles, but there are details I still don’t get. Hope someone can elucidate things for me. Thanks for your kind help!
// Lars

1. The present active imperfective participle (as well as the other three types of participles by the way) have obvious qualities of an adjective. Recognizing молящий (imploring, pleading) as the present active imperfective participle of молить, I guess we could say, for example, молящий взгляд.

My question is if the present active imperfective participle in general can be transformed into adverbs, just like normal qualitative adjectives can (медленный - медленно, свежий - свеже)?

Still reading Мастер и Маргарита, there’s a passage where Иван says to Dr. Стравинский: – Но его необходимо поймать! – уже моля́ще воскликнул Иван. If I understand things correctly, this is the present active imperfective participle of молить (молящий) in adverbial form (моляще), hence translated: … said Иван pleadingly.

2. My second question, on the same subject, is... if you can put the abovementioned present active imperfective participles in comparative form, as easy as normal qualitative adjectives and adverbs (for example красивый/красиво - красивее (краше), высокий/высоко - выше or простой/просто - проще)?

Let’s use моля́щий (imploring, pleading) and интригу́ющий (fascinating) as examples.

If I would want to say that Иван was crying out something in a more pleadingly manner (than before or than someone else), would it be correct to use моля́щий in its adverbial and comparative form: моля́ще(е)..? Resulting in:  …моля́ще(е) воскликнул Иван. *

* Please note that the correct comparative form of моля́ще is unknown to me. I’m guessing моля́ще or моля́щее. Also I’m guessing that one option would be to compare analytically: более моля́ще

Conversely, if I want to say that the book is more fascinating than the movie, would it be correct to use интригу́ющий in its adjectival and comparative form: интригу́юще(е)..? Resulting in: книга интригу́юще(е) чем фильм. **

** Once again, the correct comparative form of интригу́ющий is unknown to me. I’m guessing интригу́юще or интригу́ющее. Analytical suggestion: книга более интригу́ющая чем фильм..?


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## Maroseika

Participles don't have comparative forms. However adjectives, including those coinciding with participles, do have them. And you guess is quite correct, the form should be analytical:
У нее был более, наиболее/самый интригующий, молящий взгляд.  (Just not sure in what context "наиболее молящий взгляд" would sound well, but technically this is correct). 
Фильм молящее, интригующее, чем книга.


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## Vovan

I take Bulgakov's _моляще _as an uncommon (and even odd) word in modern Russian. It is perfectly understandable, though.

We have _умолять=>умоляющий=>умоляюще._
_Умоляющий взгляд.
Он умоляюще протянул ей передачку для сына.
_​_Моляще _seems to be derived from _молить=>*молящий. _I don't know such an adjective...

We do have the adjective _интригующий. _So you can form its comparative and its superlative: _более интригующий, наиболее интригующий. _And, theoretically, we could also say:
_Наиболее интригующе вёл себя их друг из глубинки.
_​But these adverbs (_умоляюще, интригующе_) are hardly advisable. Occasionaly, we might use them, though...
​


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## Maroseika

Adjective молящий is in the dictionaries. And its short form in the sense of an adverb is far not rare in literature.
Both интригующе and умоляюще seem quite natural for me.


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## Vovan

*Maroseika, *I only meant to prevent possible overuse of such adverbs, especially in writing, but failed to express myself clearly.
The idea is that we can often express a thought without such adverbs. Keeping the original adjective or opting for the respective verb or деепричастие or doing something else might be some better morphological (and phonetic) choices (as patterns to follow on an everyday basis for non-native speakers!). Here's an example:
_Она укоряюще посмотрела на него. => Она посмотрела на него с укором.
Нужно действовать более убеждающе. => Нужно действовать с бо́льшим убеждением (более убедительно и т.п.).
и т.д.
Она любяще посмотрела на него. => Она любя посмотрела на него (с любовью и т.п.)
_​Well, I may be worrying too much...


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## Awwal12

Galant Elefant said:


> My question is if the present active imperfective participle in general can be transformed into adverbs, just like normal qualitative adjectives can (медленный - медленно, свежий - свеже)?


Yes, that seems universally applicable (although, much like the very present tense participles, such adverbs are pretty rare in the spoken everyday language).




Galant Elefant said:


> 2. My second question, on the same subject, is... if you can put the abovementioned present active imperfective participles in comparative form, as easy as normal qualitative adjectives and adverbs (for example красивый/красиво - красивее (краше), высокий/высоко - выше or простой/просто - проще)?


I'd say it depends. Certainly there is no synthetic comparative forms for any participles (as well as for possessive, relative and relative-possessive adjectives, to that matter). However, in certain cases, when it's fully applicable semantically, you may put them into analytic comparative and superlative forms ("ещё более устрашающий взгляд", "самая интригующая история"). Note that in all these cases the participles already express sings of adjectivization (focusing on a quality of the object instead of its action of any kind), and it's often pretty hard to draw the line between participles and verbal adjectives in Russian, so it's quite possible not to consider these examples as actual participles at all. "Ещё более устрашающий *меня сегодня* взгляд"  (where we definitely have a participle) already sounds unapplicable, in my opinion; the correct option would be "Ещё сильнее устрашающий меня сегодня взгляд"  (although it's still bad stylistically, to be frank ).


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## MIDAV

Awwal12 said:


> Yes, that seems universally applicable


This sounds authoritative, but I don’t get it. _Читающий, работающий, летящий_ are all present active imperfective participles to me. How come I cannot transform any of them into adverbs?

As for number two, this one seems universally applicable to me. I agree that you certainly cannot derive comparative forms synthetically. However, _более устрашающе, более умоляюще, более разражающе_ are all valid comparative adverbs to me. That is, as long as you can derive an adverb from a present active imperfective participle, you can make it comparative by adding _более_.

Btw, _моляще _is a poor example as it is a rarely used participle.


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## Q-cumber

I


MIDAV said:


> This sounds authoritative, but I don’t get it. _Читающий, работающий, летящий_ are all present active imperfective participles to me. How come I cannot transform any of them into adverbs?
> 
> As for number two, this one seems universally applicable to me. I agree that you certainly cannot derive comparative forms synthetically. However, _более устрашающе, более умоляюще, более разражающе_ are all valid comparative adverbs to me. That is, as long as you can derive an adverb from a present active imperfective participle, you can make it comparative by adding _более_.
> 
> Btw, _моляще _is a poor example as it is a rarely used participle.



..or "менее"


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## Rosett

Vovan said:


> I take Bulgakov's _моляще _as an uncommon (and even odd) word in modern Russian. It is perfectly understandable, though.


«Моляще» - прекрасное русское слово и, хотя автокорректор удивлённо вскидывает на него брови, оно проникло в народную поэзию, своим появлением сделав её ещё чуть богаче:
«...А счастье так просилось в дом, так робко и неловко.
Моляще поднимало взгляд, едва-едва пищало,
Но «кто-то» мимо проходил и счастье замирало.»

Сравнительная степень, разумеется, будет «молящее», а превосходная, думаю - «наимоляще».


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## Awwal12

MIDAV said:


> This sounds authoritative, but I don’t get it. _Читающий, работающий, летящий_ are all present active imperfective participles to me. How come I cannot transform any of them into adverbs?


Well, Google certainly knows the adverb "летяще".  (Even after filtering out the compound adjectives, misspellings and other irrelevant cases.) As for the rest - semantic limitations, I suppose? Because I even don't know what "работающе" should actually mean. Anyway, "universally applicable" isn't quite true, you're right.





Rosett said:


> Сравнительная степень, разумеется, будет «молящее», а превосходная, думаю - «наимоляще».



Find me, please, at least one synthetic comparative form of a participle/verbal adjective in the Russian National Corpus, please.
It looks almost like you're intentionally misleading the learners.


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## Xavier61

Galant Elefant said:


> Hey guys!
> I have a grammar question concerning the Russian present active imperfective participle.
> I have studied quite a lot of Russian grammar including the four participles, but there are details I still don’t get. Hope someone can elucidate things for me. Thanks for your kind help!
> // Lars
> 
> 1. The present active imperfective participle (as well as the other three types of participles by the way) have obvious qualities of an adjective. Recognizing молящий (imploring, pleading) as the present active imperfective participle of молить, I guess we could say, for example, молящий взгляд.
> 
> My question is if the present active imperfective participle in general can be transformed into adverbs, just like normal qualitative adjectives can (медленный - медленно, свежий - свеже)?
> 
> Still reading Мастер и Маргарита, there’s a passage where Иван says to Dr. Стравинский: – Но его необходимо поймать! – уже моля́ще воскликнул Иван. If I understand things correctly, this is the present active imperfective participle of молить (молящий) in adverbial form (моляще), hence translated: … said Иван pleadingly.


I had the idea that in Russian there are specific adverbial participles (деепричастия) that fullfill that role: *"уже моля воскликнул Иван" is correct and sounds natural? Is there any need to create a new adverb?


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## Maroseika

Xavier61 said:


> I had the idea that in Russian there are specific adverbial participles (деепричастия) that fullfill that role: *"уже моля воскликнул Иван" is correct and sounds natural? Is there any need to create a new adverb?


Adverbial participles have very little to do with adverbs, motivated by participles (отпричастные наречия). The word "adverb", common for them, is just misleading.

*Adverb *is characteristic of the action: Смотрел (как?) моляще.
*Adverbial participle* expresses additional action: Смотрел (что делая?), моля о пощаде.

Of course, they may be close semantically in some contexts, but they are far not interchangeable.
Or maybe you mean adverbial participles used as adverbs? Like смотреть молча, справиться играючи, наказывать любя?


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## MIDAV

Awwal12 said:


> Google certainly knows the adverb "летяще"


You're right. It certainly exists. Funny thing I was so certain it's impossible I didn't even bother to check online.



Rosett said:


> Сравнительная степень, разумеется, будет «молящее»


This looks so grossly misleading I can't believe it's serious. Not very funny as a joke either. Are you supposed to move the stress too, say _молящЕе_?


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## Rosett

MIDAV said:


> This looks so grossly misleading I can't believe it's serious. Not very funny as a joke either. Are you supposed to move the stress too, say _молящЕе_?


The stress is on «я»: _моля́щее_.


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## Maroseika

I also think that this adverb naturally has only complex comparative form: более, наиболее моляще.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> I also think that this adverb naturally has only complex comparative form: более, наиболее моляще.


While the analytic form is always possible and can be occasionally find around, as if in: «Будкевич вышел, но сразу вернулся, и уж, кажется, нельзя было говорить *более моляще и униженно*, но он попросил ещё гораздо *более жалко*: — Может ...», they are heavy-weight, and you can definitely use the synthetic one «моля́щее» in the same text, for example:
«...кажется, нельзя было говорить *моля́щее* *и уни́женнее*, но он попросил ещё гораздо *жальче*...», which is much lighter.


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## Maroseika

The point is that synthetic comparative forms are suitable only for (some) well-known adverbs, but моляще is too rare to be one of them. Otherwise comparative form looks and sounds too weird not to say hardly comprehensible (especially due to homonymy with the adjective of the Neutral gender).


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> The point is that synthetic comparative forms are suitable only for (some) well-known adverbs, but моляще is too rare to be one of them. Otherwise comparative form looks and sounds too weird not to say hardly comprehensible (especially due to homonymy with the adjective of the Neutral gender).


Homonymy threatens seriously only the words that were taken out of context or if featured in puns. The example shown above is unequivocal.


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> for example:
> «...кажется, нельзя было говорить *молящее* *и униженнее*»


A case in point: униженнее look good, молящее - weird (reader stumbles). Exactly what I meant under "well-known" adverbs.


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## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> A case in point: униженнее look good, молящее - weird (reader stumbles). Exactly what I meant under "well-known" adverbs.


Moлящее is a neuter gender form of the present participle "молящий" .

For example, "молящее выражение лица".


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## Rosett

Q-cumber said:


> Moлящее is a neuter gender form of the present participle "молящий" .
> 
> For example, "молящее выражение лица".


That doesn’t prevent it to be also a comparative degree of corresponding adverb.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> A case in point: униженнее look good, молящее - weird (reader stumbles). Exactly what I meant under "well-known" adverbs.


«Более моляще» doesn’t do any better than «молящее», and a reader can stumble upon it even harder.

Standard use of «моля́щее» as comparative degree of «моля́ще» can be validated through undisputable examples from literature:

«Товарищ подполковник, – уже моля́щее просил Фомичев, – отпустите пожалуйста! Ратников тяжело с отдувом вздохнул и подумал: «Надо же, ...»


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## Maroseika

Rosett said:


> «Более моляще» doesn’t do any better than «молящее», and a reader can stumble upon it even harder.
> 
> Standard use of «моля́щее» as comparative degree of «моля́ще» can be validated through undisputable examples from literature:
> 
> «Товарищ подполковник, – уже моля́щее просил Фомичев, – отпустите пожалуйста! Ратников тяжело с отдувом вздохнул и подумал: «Надо же, ...»


I'm afraid this example is very far from being undisputable. Both forms молящее and более моляще sound unusual just because the very adverb моляще is rather rare, and according to the common pattern rare adverbs have only analytic comparative form (same like более интригующе and not интригующее).


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid this example is very far from being undisputable. Both forms молящее and более моляще sound unusual just because the very adverb моляще is rather rare, and according to the common pattern rare adverbs have only analytic comparative form (same like более интригующе and not интригующее).


It may sound unusual to you because the adverb isn’t found in your universe and you have never heard it, too bad. But the comparative forms shown above are created properly - according to the rules of Russian morphology, you like it or not.

The statement you put about «интригующе» refers rather to a 5-syllable word than to frequency of occurrence. The synthetic form would have 6 syllables, that makes it impractical. That is the common pattern. «Интригующе» isn’t rare at all, as well as, for example, «умоляюще».

«Моляще» is made out of 3 syllables, and its synthetic comparative form is fairly comfortable, in spite of its allegedly infrequent occurrence:

«Брови нахмурены, рот слегка приоткрыт, глаза как-то молящее смотрели на меня. Я облокотился на выпрямленную руку и склонился к её уху, ...»

Again, what is it, that elusive “common pattern” you’re referring to? Where did you find such a thing about comparative degrees of adverbs?


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## Maroseika

I don't think number of syllables matters too much (cf. 6-syllabic требовательнее or 7-syllabic воодушевленнее). More important is the fact that adjectives on -щий do not have synthetic at all, with very few exceptions (actually I know only one: тощий - тоще́е/тоще́й).
But from the adjective on -щный synthetic comparative degree forms very naturally: мощнее, зрелищнее. I believe this is the main reason why молящий > *молящее sounds unnatural.


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## MIDAV

Rosett said:


> can be validated through undisputable examples from literature


I tried typing "моляще" in MS Word and it got autocorrected to "молящее".

This is not to say that the word "моляще" doesn’t exist. But that's possibly how the authors ended up with the above two phrases. That is, it was probably unintentional, and they just wanted to use the positive form – would fit just as well (in fact better, especially in the second example).


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## Rosett

MIDAV said:


> I tried typing "моляще" in MS Word and it got autocorrected to "молящее".
> 
> This is not to say that the word "моляще" doesn’t exist. But that's possibly how the authors ended up with the above two phrases. That is, it was probably unintentional, and they just wanted to use the positive form – would fit just as well (in fact better, especially in the second example).


I’m sure that MS Word can’t be ultimate solution in resolving this issue.

If those two examples are not enough, please make sure that you read two more:

«- Не вытаскивай, хорошо? – как-то молящее попросил Эмброуз, смотря на меня через плечо. »

«Слежу за реакцией Лады, но она только устало вздыхает, скидывая руку моего друга, и как-то молящее смотрит на меня.»


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## Maroseika

Rosett, I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument about MS Word. It's not that this is a wrong word, because spell checker doesn't know it. This is just an explanation of the undeliberate usage of this word.
I'm aslo afraid that no number of typos or illiterate texts can make this word less unnatural for the unprejudiced natives. 
With all that, I'm sure we have already said enough here to let the Russian learners make up their own mind in point of the preferable comparative form of such adverbs as моляще and similar.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> More important is the fact that adjectives on -щий do not have synthetic at all, with very few exceptions (actually I know only one: тощий - тоще́е/тоще́й).
> But from the adjective on -щный synthetic comparative degree forms very naturally: мощнее, зрелищнее. I believe this is the main reason why молящий > *молящее sounds unnatural.


There’s much more than «тощий» to it.

You may want to start adding «кричащий» to the list, for example:

«Aug 5, 2016 · Жаль, ну нет возможности сделать шрифт ещё кричащее и ещё больше. Но реально это крайне смешно. Именно смешно: »


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> Rosett, I'm afraid you misunderstood the argument about MS Word. It's not that this is a wrong word, because spell checker doesn't know it. This is just an explanation of the undeliberate usage of this word.
> I'm aslo afraid that no number of typos or illiterate texts can make this word less unnatural for the unprejudiced natives.
> With all that, I'm sure we have already said enough here to let the Russian learners make up their own mind in point of the preferable comparative form of such adverbs as моляще and similar.


You’re talking about so-called “unnatural” use subjectively, from your own inner space (instead of providing any sort of viable proof,) but other authors somehow don’t agree with you, as shown above. These authors help us to present standard Russian to the learners as a more rich and soundful language with much greater potential than they can derive from their own textbooks.


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## Maroseika

Rosett, I think this is quite clear to everybody, that your "examples" are no more than plain typos (just ask yourself: *молящее than what all these people are doing all these things?). I don't think typos enrich the language.


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## MIDAV

Rosett said:


> Жаль, ну нет возможности сделать шрифт ещё кричащее и ещё больше.


This one's valid. Thanks for digging it up. Must have taken a while but it was worth it.

The author is definitely a native who knows how to use our language. Actually, it's impressive. I've been moving towards you. I can admit it's possible in certain contexts.

Now you do your part of the compromise and admit that it's extremely rare as this is just one single example vs tons and tons of analytically formed comparatives.


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## Rosett

Maroseika said:


> Rosett, I think this is quite clear to everybody, that your "examples" are no more than plain typos (just ask yourself: *молящее than what all these people are doing all these things?). I don't think typos enrich the language.


You can only speak for yourself in this kind of discussion, other foreros or readers haven’t yet their word challenging it.

Please show clearly, using particular examples among those shown above, that there’s typos related to «молящее» and why «молящее» wouldn’t fit the respective phrases and contexts?

I’ve been waiting, since you started playing down my arguments, that you could present some kind of proof coming from the hereby approved grammar books and dictionaries, and not only subjective feelings about “unnaturally” sounding words.


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## Rosett

MIDAV said:


> This one's valid. Thanks for digging it up. Must have taken a while but it was worth it.
> 
> The author is definitely a native who knows how to use our language. Actually, it's impressive. I've been moving towards you. I can admit it's possible in certain contexts.
> 
> Now you do your part of the compromise and admit that it's extremely rare as this is just one single example vs tons and tons of analytically formed comparatives.


Actually, I admit that the examples shown above are rare (please see up the thread), but not unnatural or otherwise non-standard in terms of standard Russian language.

Yes, we rarely use the verb «молить» in the nowadays speech, but it’s far not a lone adverb on «-ще» that is productive in regards to synthetically formed comparative degrees.

Moreover, there are dozens of valid words of this kind in good standing with the grammar rules, and no one can’t declare them “unnatural” just like that. They undeniably belong to the strictest standard of Russian language.

Not all the words and their wordforms can be widespread in the real world; on the contrary, it’s natural that there are maybe 10-20% only who contribute to the total occurrence of 80-90%. Other 80-90%, an overwhelming majority, are between rare and extremely rare, down maybe even to a single occurrence and no longer productive (in surviving fixed sayings,) but nevertheless remain fully valid and standard.


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## MIDAV

Yes, you are right there are other examples:
"но так они стали ещё манящее"
"его голос стал ещё шипящее"
etc. That's in texts written by modern authors, probably young people. I admit it is possible.

I still believe your examples with "молящее" above are typos. The context just doesn’t require a comparative.

Also, I still hold that your original statement above is (grossly) misleading. Just your saying "разумеется" alone makes it misleading. There's nothing obvious about it. It's extremely rare.


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## rusita preciosa

Mod note: The topic has been fully explored. The thread is now closed.


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