# in medio stat virtus



## Annakrutitskaya

Hello!

Here it the phrase: In medio stat Virtus.

What is the right way to change this phrase so it sounds as Virtue *does not *lie in moderation? How to make the verb 'stat' negative?

Thank you!


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## wandle

_*Stat *_ is made negative by the word _*non*_.
However, the resulting sentence, _*In medio non stat virtus*_, is rather uninformative.

_'Virtue resides in the mean'_ is a pregnant saying: it sums up a philosophy. 
_'Virtue does not reside in the mean'_ merely negates a proposition, without offering anything positive.


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## Annakrutitskaya

wandle said:


> _*Stat *_ is made negative by the word _*non*_.
> However, the resulting sentence, _*In medio non stat virtus*_, is rather uninformative.
> 
> _'Virtue resides in the mean'_ is a pregnant saying: it sums up a philosophy.
> _'Virtue does not reside in the mean'_ merely negates a proposition, without offering anything positive.



Dear Wandle, thank you very much. What would be a correct translation for "Virtue *does not *lie in moderation"? I intend to say exactly what it means in English (it is not true that virtue lies in moderation; it will sound like a pun in the context and that is what I need) but I could not come up with the correct Latin expression. 

I think that my first option does not reflect even the positive meaning "Virtue lies in moderation". So, what is the best way to make a negative statement? 

Thank you for your help!


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## Schimmelreiter

_Virtus a medio remota (est)._


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## Annakrutitskaya

Schimmelreiter said:


> _Virtus a medio remota (est)._



Thank you!  Though I sense that this phrase has a rather different meaning - I am not sure but sounds as "Virtue is remote from the middle" or "Virtue is moved away from the middle" - both are far from "Virtue *does not *lie in moderation".

Turned out to be not such an easy task for me


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## Schimmelreiter

Annakrutitskaya said:


> "Virtue is remote from the middle" or "Virtue is moved away from the middle" - both are far from "Virtue *does not *lie in moderation"


Why? If the thing is not in the middle, then it's "away from" the middle.


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## wandle

Here we come up against my initial point. The literal meaning of _*in medio*_ is 'in the middle'. At first sight, 'Virtue stands in the middle' does not tell us very much.

However, the saying _*in medio stat virtus*_ is a well-known phrase that sums up a philosophical view which analyses forms of conduct into extremes either side of a mean, or middle, and which analyses human excellence or virtue in terms of realisation of potential. That is where the idea of moderation comes from. It is not immediately expressed by _*in medio*_, 'in the middle'.

Once we put the saying into the negative, it no longer expresses that philosophy: hence there is now no reason to attach that special significance to the phrase _*in medio*_ and we are left with a relatively empty statement.

If you wish to make a statement which purposely denies the philosophical view expressed by _*in medio stat virtus*_, then a stronger form of declaration is needed, which denies the proposition as a whole, for example:

_*illud nego, virtutem in medio stare*_ 'I deny the idea that virtue resides in the mean'.


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## wandle

Annakrutitskaya said:


> I intend to say exactly what it means in English (it is not true that virtue lies in moderation; it will sound like a pun in the context and that is what I need)


Are you saying that you read 'lies' as a pun between 'rests' and 'speaks untruth', and you want to reproduce that pun in Latin?
I am afraid there is no Latin word with those two meanings.


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## Schimmelreiter

_Virtus nonnumquam in utro


_​(underlying idea: Virtue is sometimes in "one of two" rather than in the happy mean between them)


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## Scholiast

Salvete!


> I am afraid there is no Latin word with those two meanings.


 (# 8)

_virtus non in medio, sed in mendaci_?

Σ


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## Schimmelreiter

Do you mean _in mendacio? _Or perhaps _​in mendace?_


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## Scholiast

Greetings, Schimmelreiter (# 11)

_quod scripsi, scripsi._ 3rd-declension adjectives have an ablative singular in _-i_, not _-e_ as do the majority of nouns.

Σ


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## Schimmelreiter

What's Latin for _embarrassing_?


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## Annakrutitskaya

Hello everyone!

Thank you very much for this discussion! 

Let me try one more time to explain what I would like to say - I do hope to be able to convey the meaning  "Virtue *does not *lie in moderation" means that a person who says this phrase thinks that any moderation, i.e. avoiding excess or extremes in one's behaviour, opinions, love for different things, etc., doesn't create virtue, that it is not true that virtue is created by moderate behavior and perpetual self-restraint in pursue of a correct moderate behavior, desires, etc. 

I am afraid that this phrase is not related to the well-known _*in medio stat virtus. *_Maybe, asking this question, I should have not mentioned the well-known Latin phrase. I am looking for a translation in the same concise form as the one in English


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## Schimmelreiter

_Non gignit modus virtutem. _


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## ablativ

virtus modestia vitae non creatur. ?


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## Crumbs

That would simply be:

“Non in medio stat virtus.”


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