# Cheque/Check



## CyrusSH

I think we know that the word *cheque* comes from Persian چک (chek): https://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/چک

It may sounds strange that in a poem from about 1,000 years ago, Khaqani talks about a customer who writes cheque (مشتری چک نویس)!

How old is this word? Ferdosi says that the Sassanid kings gave "cheque" to the Roman kings:

به قیصر سپارم همه یک به یک
ازین پس نوشته فرستیم و چک


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> How old is this word?


It is an 18th century word derived from the common meaning in English (a _check_ against forgery). The English word is in turn derived from Old French and is cognate to Modern French _échec_ meaning _failure_.

The French _échec_ in turn is derived from the term in the game, i.e. when the king is attacked in chess, and in this meaning indeed ultimately a Persian loan but from_ šāh_ = _king_ and not from _čak = document_.


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## bragpipes

So is the Persian word ček (cheque, چک) a reimportation?


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> It is an 18th century word derived from the common meaning in English (a _check_ against forgery). The English word is in turn derived from Old French and is cognate to Modern French _échec_ meaning _failure_.
> 
> The French _échec_ in turn is derived from the term in the game, i.e. when the king is attacked in chess, and in this meaning indeed ultimately a Persian loan but from_ šāh_ = _king_ and not from _čak = document_.



I doubt about it, Persians don't use this word when the king is attacked in chess but _kiš_ & _kišmat_. The word _kiš_ is already just used for chess but it originally meant "quiver".


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## berndf

bragpipes said:


> So is the Persian word ček (cheque, چک) a reimportation?


Apparently. And چک (_čak_) and چک (_ček_) are just homographs.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I doubt about it, Persians don't use this word when the king is attacked in chess but _kiš_ & _kišmat_. The word _kiš_ are already just used for chess but it originally meant "quiver".


Chess entered Europe about 800-1000 years ago derived from the game of شطرنج (_shatranj_, an Arabized form of a Middle Persian word which is ultimately from Sanskrit). The pieces in شطرنج  retained their Persian names and the king was called _šāh._


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## CyrusSH

There is no reimportation, Persian چک originally meant bill (a written statement of the money owed for goods or services), and this word had this meaning in the first Commercial Code of Iran: http://banki.ir/ads/3772-چک-از-کجا-آمد


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## bragpipes

I had it in my mind that cheque came from Persian ček for bill - I did not know about the chess etymology.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, Persian and France/England(?) both developed the word ček for note-for-cash independently, Persian from "bill" and England/France through a longer process stemming from the game of chess?

That's quite interesting.

What is the etymology of the Persian ček for "bill"?


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## fdb

berndf said:


> It is an 18th century word derived from the common meaning in English (a _check_ against forgery). The English word is in turn derived from Old French and is cognate to Modern French _échec_ meaning _failure_.
> 
> The French _échec_ in turn is derived from the term in the game, i.e. when the king is attacked in chess, and in this meaning indeed ultimately a Persian loan but from_ šāh_ = _king_ and not from _čak = document_.



This is indeed what it says in the existing English etymological dictionaries. In the meanwhile the word čak “written document of debt” has shown up in Pahlavi (as čk), in Choresmian (čk), and in Bactrian (σακο). See here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HNNZj3YA7ucC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=dieter+weber+cheque&source=bl&ots=evHzNB2Kot&sig=_NjI8p9oRPiwRHzpnW3IRqsz2A8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm3s_ns7XJAhWFrRoKHY6NAeIQ6AEIPjAF#v=onepage&q=dieter weber cheque&f=false

pp. 38 sqq., with lots of references. It seems that it is an old borrowing from (Middle) Chinese, via Sogdian, then Persian, then Arabic (ṣakk) or Turkish.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> The French _échec_ in turn is derived from the term in the game, i.e. when the king is attacked in chess, and in this meaning indeed ultimately a Persian loan but from_ šāh_ = _king_ and not from _čak = document_.



I hope other members who speak Persian can explain this thing, in chess when the king is attacked, instead of کیش, it can be also said "بزن به چاک", I don't know what "châk" means here.


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## Perseas

I read in a Greek history book in a capital that deals with Arab civilization, trade  etc in the Middle Ages, that  >τσεκ /tsek/< is of Arabic origin. If this is wrong, possibly Arabs spread this term and its practice.


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> I read in a Greek history book in a capital that deals with Arab civilization, trade  etc in the Middle Ages, that  >τσεκ /tsek/< is of Arabic origin. If this is wrong, possibly Arabs spread this term and its practice.


As fdb and I have said, the Arabic word is a loan from Middle Persian which, as fdb wrote, is in turn a loan and is eventually of Chinese origin.

It came to Europe during the Abbasid Khalifate. This instrument was more a promissory note (or cashier's check in US terminology) than a (personal) cheque. The concepts of bill of exchange, money order, cheque, promissory note, etc. were invented independently several times in history. The modern (well "modern" in quotes; in Europe the instrument is regarded as obsolete and has almost completely disappeared) concept and expression _cheque_ is clearly an 18th century British invention as a special type of bill of exchange written on special paper issued by the bank it is drawn on to make it "check" against forgery.


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> I hope other members who speak Persian can explain this thing, in chess when the king is attacked, instead of کیش, it can be also said "بزن به چاک", I don't know what "châk" means here.



The way you put it here is so misleading. It is obvious (and you may well know it) that  به چاک زدن is a general idiom which simply means "to flee pettily" (probably from چاک "crack, small opening" in the sense of a small animal desperately fleeing through a crack). It doesn't have anything to do with chess or check.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> As fdb and I have said, the Arabic word is a loan from Middle Persian which, as fdb wrote, is in turn a loan and is eventually of Chinese origin.
> 
> It came to Europe during the Abbasid Khalifate. This instrument was more a promissory note (or cashier's check in US terminology) than a (personal) cheque. The concepts of bill of exchange, money order, cheque, promissory note, etc. were invented independently several times in history. The modern (well "modern" in quotes; in Europe the instrument is regarded as obsolete and has almost completely disappeared) concept and expression _cheque_ is clearly an 18th century British invention as a special type of bill of exchange written on special paper issued by the bank it is drawn on to make it "check" against forgery.



I think it is better that we consider just a Chinese origin, instead of multiple inventions with the same name.


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## PersoLatin

This reference from OED can't be any less reliable than anything else on the net, on this topic.
check (n.1) 


c. 1300, "a call in chess noting one's move has placed his opponent's king (or another major piece) in immediate peril," from Old French eschequier "a check at chess" (also "chess board, chess set"), from eschec "the game of chess; chessboard; check; checkmate," from Vulgar Latin *scaccus, from Arabic shah, from Persian shah "king," the principal piece in a chess game (see shah; also compare checkmate (n.)). Also c. 1300 in a generalized sense, "harmful incident or event."

*When the king is in check that player's choices are severely limited. Hence, "sudden stoppage" (early 14c.), and by c. 1700 to "a token of ownership used to check against, and prevent, loss or theft" (surviving in hat check) and "a check against forgery or alteration," which gave the modern financial use of "bank check, money draft" *(first recorded 1798 and often spelled cheque), probably influenced by exchequer. Checking account is attested from 1897, American English. Blank check in the figurative sense attested by 1849. Checks and balances is from 1782, perhaps originally suggesting machinery.


So *if *the word 'check' came from chess (please see bold area above), if by association only, *and *ček existed even if it was:


berndf said:


> more a promissory note (or cashier's check in US terminology) than a (personal) cheque.


and Chinese.

then can this statement still be made, with confidence?


berndf said:


> and expression _cheque_ is clearly an 18th century British invention as a special type of bill of exchange written on special paper issued by the bank it is drawn on to make it "check" against forgery.


Is wine-making a French invention?




berndf said:


> The concepts of bill of exchange, money order, cheque, promissory note, etc. were invented independently several times in history.


I'm sure the wheel wasn't quite round when it was first invented but we only kept the 'working round' ones.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> So *if *the word 'check' came from chess (please see bold area above), if by association only, *and *ček existed even if it was:


The word _čak_ existed before,_ ček_ is a modern loan.


PersoLatin said:


> then can this statement still be made, with confidence?


Yes of course. The English words _check _and the Persian word _čak _have no relation.

In this forum we are doing etymology, i.e. we are inquiring how words and concepts _did _develop and not how they _could _have developed and how they _could _be associated. Popular associations are etymologically only relevant, if and to the extent to which they influenced the development of a word. Since the existence of the Persian word چک (irrespective of the vowel) played no role whatsoever in the development of the English word _cheque _(and that is precisely what the OED quote states) there is no etymological relation between the two.


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## CyrusSH

Is it really possible that Europeans for the first time heard the very Persian word *shah* in the Middle Ages and thought this word means "chess/check", not "king"?


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## berndf

I am sure the Greeks and the Romans knew the word. They had enough contact with Persian speaking empires. But this particular derivation (French _échec _and English _check_, derived from a common Old French etymon) developed through the usage in the game.


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## CyrusSH

Isn't *chèque* a French word? How can it be a British invention?


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## berndf

The French word_ chèque_ is a loan from English: http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/chèque.


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## PersoLatin

check (n.1) 


c. 1300, "a call in chess noting one's move has placed his opponent's king (or another major piece) in immediate peril," from Old French eschequier "a check at chess" (also "chess board, chess set"), from eschec "the game of chess; chessboard; check; checkmate," from Vulgar Latin *scaccus, from Arabic shah, from Persian shah "king," the principal piece in a chess game (see shah; also compare checkmate (n.)). Also c. 1300 in a generalized sense, "harmful incident or event."

When the king is in check that player's choices are severely limited. Hence, "sudden stoppage" (early 14c.), and by c. 1700 to "a token of ownership used to check against, and prevent, loss or theft" (surviving in hat check) and "a check against forgery or alteration," which gave the modern financial use of "bank check, money draft" (first recorded 1798 and often spelled cheque), probably influenced by exchequer. Checking account is attested from 1897, American English. Blank check in the figurative sense attested by 1849. Checks and balances is from 1782, perhaps originally suggesting machinery.

*The above are not my words.*

These are based on what fdb, yourself and OED said/says:
1 The word 'check' in both senses of it i.e. 'checking the weather' and check/cheque as in banker's draft, was developed from the game chess, (your own post #2)
2 The concept of a document which represent a financial undertaking i.e. a promissory note etc. has been around in Persia since at least 2500 year ago AND "were invented independently several times in history".

These are my words: Imagine yourself in 18th England (UK) now put the the word from (1) and the concept from (2) and add a new requirement, you will get a new piece of paper we now call a cheque, I assert this is not an invention, it is just another concept based on existing ones, that's all. I am using facts only from this thread.



berndf said:


> It came to Europe during the Abbasid Khalifate. This instrument was more a promissory note (or cashier's check in US terminology) than a (personal) cheque. The concepts of bill of exchange, money order, cheque, promissory note, etc. were invented independently several times in history. The modern (well "modern" in quotes; in Europe the instrument is regarded as obsolete and has almost completely disappeared) concept and expression _cheque_ is clearly an 18th century British invention as a special type of bill of exchange written on special paper issued by the bank it is drawn on to make it "check" against forgery



I don't know if these are your own words or they are from a another source (you haven't said), either way they sound like a mixture of facts & opinions and not all about etymology. This forum is excellent for accurate references based on established ideas, and surely it should be able to tolerate certain amount of challenge, to those ideas. Established ideas can be wrong too, and how are we to find out.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> These are my words: Imagine yourself in 18th England (UK) now put the the word from (1) and the concept from (2) and add a new requirement, you will get a new piece of paper we now call a cheque, I assert this is not an invention, it is just another concept based on existing ones, that's all. I am using facts only from this thread.


Let me put it this way: We are speaking about words here and calling this special type of a bill of exchange a _check_ or _cheque_ is certainly an innovation/invention. If you call the financial instrument itself (not the word for it) a gradual evolution or an invention is up to you doesn't matter to this discussion. Can we agree on that?


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## PersoLatin

With all due respect, maybe it should have been "put it this way:" in the first place. When we are talking about etymology of a word & not everyone agrees on an aspect of it, it isn't at all helpful to add comments that are, what I consider, dismissive, especially with no reference. *Yes, it doesn't matter how, I think, a word has come about*. But etymology of some words, is not clear-cut, so certain amount of diversion/digression will have to be allowed.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> *Yes, it doesn't matter how, I think, a word has come about*.


I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. I said exactly the same it matters how the *word* has come about; not the *concept*.

You quoted the OED and it says exactly the same thing I said namely that the word _cheque_ does not come from _čak,_ or _ček_ for that matter.


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## PersoLatin

Wow a communication break down on a language forum.

I never said cheque comes from _čak,_ or _ček,_ but I must have implied it & that has misled you, so apologies for that.


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## berndf

PersoLatin said:


> Wow a communication break down on a language forum.
> 
> I never said cheque comes from _čak,_ or _ček,_ but I must have implied it & that has misled you, so apologies for that.


The important thing is that it has been resolved.￼


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