# South Slavic languages: swearwords



## Setwale_Charm

Hi,
 This is not so much of a linguistic question probably but it evidently remains to be the insufficiency of my language knowledge that is to blame for my inability to grasp the meaning of the following cartoon
http://i5.tinypic.com/6f0d3yc.jpg

What exactly is made fun of here?


----------



## Duya

Well, the stereotype goes that Slovenians are well-tempered, well-raised, but cold and blasé, while Serbs (and Bosnians) are more like Freudian barbarians: raw, crude, direct, hot-headed. The cartoon plays with differences in swearing: the best that the Slovene could produce is "harsh" "300 devils!" while the Serb fires off a Russian-style mat' in return. Those stereotypes are a frequent theme of ex-Yu jokes.

One of my favorites is:

_A Slovene offers two apples to a Bosnian to pick, a larger and a smaller one. The Bosnian takes the larger.
- Oh, how crude you are!
- Why, wha's the problem?
- Well, if you had offered me two different apples, i would have taken the smaller.
- Well, there you get the smaller one, shove it in your ass!
_


----------



## Athaulf

Setwale_Charm said:


> Hi,
> This is not so much of a linguistic question probably but it evidently remains to be the insufficiency of my language knowledge that is to blame for my inability to grasp the meaning of the following cartoon



First to say, this is just HILARIOUS!   And the humor indeed has a linguistic basis. 



> What exactly is made fun of here?


The difference in the severity of swearwords commonly used in Slovenia and Serbia (and also the general level of rudeness expected from a typical Slovenian and Serb in ex-Yugoslav ethnic stereotypes). The Slovenian guy angrily says in Slovenian, _"Three hundred devils!"_, thinking that he just said something aggressive and offensive. The Serbian guy replies with a stream of slurs that would probably get me banned from this forum if I provided a literal and complete English translation. Just to give you the flavor, it starts with, _"A dog mouth-f***ed your mother..."_, continues with an even worse stream of sexual and scatological references with the collocutor's mother, grandmother, a dog, and God as subjects, and ends with a homosexual slur paired with a mention of Slovenian nationality. 

These swearwords are indeed representative of the way many people swear in Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia, although you'll rarely hear so many of them in a single breath. On the other hand, Slovenians also have much more extreme swearwords than the one shown in this cartoon. 

Oh, and the pictograms in the captions approximately follow the literal content of each guy's swearwords (for some reason, God is represented by the triangle with two perpendicular lines on each side and a black smudge in the middle).


----------



## slavic_one

I've seen that few years ago, but it always make me laugh! 
Not that much swearings (they're pretty common so nothing new), but that 'pictogram' !
And about God's representation.. triangle because Holy Trinity! 
And that's the only thing I never tolerate in swearings - containing God!


----------



## Duya

slavic_one said:


> And that's the only thing I never tolerate in swearings - containing God!



Ah, you ♥٭ ♥∆ ♂♂ Catholics...

(Just kidding of course)


----------



## Woland

''mars u tri pizde materine '',this is very similar to our version. Anyway,we don't use ''three mother *unts'',the expression is like _marş în pizda mătii_


----------



## Tolovaj_Mataj

slavic_one said:


> I've seen that few years ago, but it always make me laugh!
> Not that much swearings (they're pretty common so nothing new), but that 'pictogram' !


Exactly. I know it for aboutish... 8 years? 

I completely agree with Athaulf.

I'd just like to add that original swearing words in Slovene are pretty mild comparing to Serbian. Some of them are original, some had been borrowed from Italian and German in the past centuries. In Primorska region people still swear in Italian like "porco dio!" 
Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian swearing words have come with gasterbeiters in '60-ies. Nowadays younger generations don't understand Slovene swearings at all.


----------



## Duya

For what is worth, there's a recent article from Vreme on the "archaic" swearwords in Dalmatia and Krajina.


----------



## dudasd

One of my favorite Serbian swearings - I never used it myself, but it's amazing by itself, because there isn't a singe "off-coloured" word, and still it's one of the most disgusting I've ever heard:

Dabogda ti se pas na majki zarazio! (majki = majci in local dialect)
Meaning: May God make a dog got infected on your mother.

So, no rude words at all, but it's including two offenses: dog ****s your mother + your mother is a *hore (for she is obviously having a venereal disease).


----------



## natasha2000

dudasd said:


> One of my favorite Serbian swearings - I never used it myself, but it's amazing by itself, because there isn't a singe "off-coloured" word, and still it's one of the most disgusting I've ever heard:
> 
> Dabogda ti se pas na majki zarazio! (majki = majci in local dialect)
> Meaning: May God make a dog got infected on your mother.
> 
> So, no rude words at all, but it's including two offenses: dog ****s your mother + your mother is a *hore (for she is obviously having a venereal disease).


 
Jao, Boze moj! 

Serbian imagination, when it comes to swearing, is insuperable! My God! Where did you hear that????


----------



## dudasd

Cenral Serbia; more precisely - Šumadija, exactly where I live.  Well, we ARE talented, I must admit.


----------



## Athaulf

Duya said:


> For what is worth, there's a recent article from Vreme on the "archaic" swearwords in Dalmatia and Krajina.



Thanks for the link! An excellent article.


----------



## Athaulf

dudasd said:


> One of my favorite Serbian swearings - I never used it myself, but it's amazing by itself, because there isn't a singe "off-coloured" word, and still it's one of the most disgusting I've ever heard:
> 
> Dabogda ti se pas na majki zarazio! (majki = majci in local dialect)
> Meaning: May God make a dog got infected on your mother.
> 
> So, no rude words at all, but it's including two offenses: dog ****s your mother + your mother is a *hore (for she is obviously having a venereal disease).



That's an excellent one.  I also find fascinating the old folkish curses that contain no "bad" words, but sound more barbaric and malevolent than anything found in modern languages. Such expressions usually begin with the word _dabogda_, which is a contraction meaning _may God let [something happen]_, although this literal translation does a poor job of catching its real spirit.

For example:

_Dabogda mu/joj zmija oči iskopala! = May God let a snake poke his/her eyes out!
__Dabogda im se sjeme zatrlo! = May God let their seed be wiped out! _
_Dabogda ga grom spalio! = May God let a thunder burn him! _


----------



## dudasd

My grandgrandmother also had an original and refined one:

"Dabogda ti se usta na potiljak izokrenula pa ne video šta jeo!"
May God turn your mouth to the back of your head so that you can't see what you're eating!

And Athaulf had the point (right to the bull-eye!) - sometimes it's enough if you say: "Uh, dabogda..." - and leave the rest to the imagination of the one you are quarreling with.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

OK, now I get the point! I suspected something like that. I have got a Serb in the family and I fear, _je..na majka_ will be his children`s first words in life  It is always interesting, however, to learn more about the relationships between the nations of the former Yugoslavia. What about Croatians, Macedonians and Alabnians? How do they rank in cursing?


----------



## Setwale_Charm

By the way, is it 'c' in the slovenian "hudicev" or should it be č?


----------



## dudasd

It's "hudičev", you're right. I don't know about ex-Yugoslav Albanians for I don't know the language, but as I've been many times in Macedonia and have relatives there, my personal impression is that they use rude words less than Serbs and that their diapason of swearings is not so large. But Bosnians are also swearing masters - and as Bosnia is inhabited by Croats and Bošnjaks (Bosnian Muslims) as well as by Serbs, I guess Croats from Croatia are rather tallented too, at least at some parts (Athaulf, help!). Montenegrians have rather different swearing system; their offensive terms and phrases are often based on some words that can sound quite innocent to other people, but have a big weight amongst them. (Like "avetinja" - "big ghost, bogy bogey", for example. Don't say that word if you go there.) 

Now I can't remember all the details, but once (long ago) I read an interesting article about curses and swearings, and it said that of all the European nations Serbs are "second best" after Hungarians. Any from Hungary here? 

P.S. I forgot this is Slavic languages forum, but if someone starts a similar topic in Hungarian section, I hope they will let us know.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Right, so I have a long way to go with Hungarian which I have just started



dudasd said:


> Like "avetinja" - "big ghost, bogy bogey", for example. Don't say that word if you go there.


 
Why, what does it mean?


----------



## dudasd

I am not sure myself why do they find it so offensive. It's not quite a swearing, just an offensive word. But if you call someone that... It just includes all the worst characteristics one can have. In short, that one is "not a man" - he is disgusting person, coward etc. Montenegrians (except the inhabitants of the coast) were highlanders, people with very old and stict codexes of pride and behaviour (though younger and urban population is much more flexible), so even their manner of speach is very concise and probably contains some old and forgotten meanings. They are good in "Dabogda" type of curses, but usually without rude words. For example, an old Montenegrian will never say "Dog f*** your mother", instead of the "bad" word he will use a verb that means "to scratch": "Pas ti nanu greba'!"


----------



## Athaulf

dudasd said:


> It's "hudičev", you're right. I don't know about ex-Yugoslav Albanians for I don't know the language, but as I've been many times in Macedonia and have relatives there, my personal impression is that they use rude words less than Serbs and that their diapason of swearings is not so large. But Bosnians are also swearing masters - and as Bosnia is inhabited by Croats and Bošnjaks (Bosnian Muslims) as well as by Serbs, I guess Croats from Croatia are rather tallented too, at least at some parts (Athaulf, help!).



I would say that the differences in swearing style mostly don't follow any ethnic or national boundaries. Within each region, members of different ethnicities are likely to swear the same way on average, and the borders between Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, and Montenegro don't represent sharp cut-off lines. In these regards, the culture of swearing is similar to the other aspects of South Slavic dialects. 

In Croatia, I'd say that people are on average prone to swearing just like in Serbia, perhaps slightly less so. The standard Croatian spoken by educated and urban people has more or less the same body of profanity as the standard Serbian, the only differences being the slang terms introduced into the swearing. 

However, when it comes to the folksh dialects, there are significant variations within Croatia. Generally, the worst swearwords can probably be found in the Dalmatian outback. People there tend to mix vulgar sexual content with elaborate theological references. People sometimes refuse to believe me when I say that in these ultra-conservative and deeply religious places, people casually combine four-letter sexual profanity with the names of God, Holy Trinity, Virgin Mary, blood and wounds of Jesus, etc.  On the other hand, the northwestern Kajkavian dialects tend to be somewhat milder than the standard language.


----------



## Athaulf

Also, since we're already writing about this topic, here is a very interesting article about the etymology of the Slavic J-word.  You might be surprised to read that the word has an almost identical sounding cognate in -- Sanskrit!


----------



## natasha2000

Athaulf said:


> Also, since we're already writing about this topic, here is a very interesting article about the etymology of the Slavic J-word.  You might be surprised to read that the word has an almost identical sounding cognate in -- Sanskrit!



Uy, uy.... This reminded me of the science-fiction book of Olga Lukovic Pjanovic who puts the theory of Serbs as the oldest people in the world, as well as of Indian (from India, not from America) origin of Serbs, and as proof for these claims, she also gives some similarities between Serbian and Sanskrit words... Wild imagination, if you ask me....


----------



## Kolan

Woland said:


> ''mars u tri pizde materine '',this is very similar to our version. Anyway,we don't use ''three mother *unts'',the expression is like _marş în pizda mătii_


Sounds very common to a Russian ear, except of numbers. I truly believed that this kind of the Russian swearing is not common to the South Slavic languages, but now I am convinced by the opposite.


----------



## natasha2000

Kolan said:


> Sounds very common to a Russian ear, except of numbers. I truly believed that this kind of the Russian swearing is not common to the South Slavic languages, but now I am convinced by the opposite.


 
Well, in Serbian it is the most common swearing word, and it can be heard all the time. Sending someone to his mothers **nt. Maybe I would be here off topic, but I was amazed when I heard that in Argentina there is the exactly the same swearing: Andate a la concha de tu madre..

On the other hand, in Serbia, it is also common to see two friends who havent seen each other for a long time who express their joy of re-encounter with the words: Gde si, bre, **bem ti mater!


----------



## Athaulf

Kolan said:


> Sounds very common to a Russian ear, except of numbers. I truly believed that this kind of the Russian swearing is not common to the South Slavic languages, but now I am convinced by the opposite.



_Marš_ is a very common rude exclamation in South Slavic languages. Needless to say, sending the addressee into his mother's, or even father's sexual organs is also extremely common.


----------



## Kolan

natasha2000 said:


> swearing: Andate a la concha de tu madre..


Well, I just realized  that I was not clear enough, talking about the matter. I wanted to mention only the word _p.zda (п.зда)_, not the entire expression (which I believe is truly international).


----------



## Athaulf

natasha2000 said:


> This reminded me of the science-fiction book of Olga Lukovic Pjanovic who puts the theory of Serbs as the oldest people in the world, as well as of Indian (from India, not from America) origin of Serbs, and as proof for these claims, she also gives some similarities between Serbian and Sanskrit words... Wild imagination, if you ask me....



I recommend googling this name for a good laugh... this actually seems as one of her _milder _claims.  Not that we don't have this sort of stuff in Croatia, of course, although it's not as popular nowadays as it was in the 1990s. 



> On the other hand, in Serbia, it is also common to see two friends who havent seen each other for a long time who express they joy of re-enclunter with the words: Gde si ti, bre, **bem ti mater!


Not just in Serbia.  In Croatia and Bosnia, male friends often say to each other things like this during a hearty jocular conversation. 

When I came to Canada, it actually took me a while to realize that certain things that we often say casually and jokingly, or as an expression of mild and harmless annoyance, become far more extreme and aggressive insults when translated into English -- and in turn, things that English speakers say to each other only to express extreme anger and aggression sound much milder to us. I remember a funny conversation with a Canadian girl who said that she was surprised at how calm and unaffected her Bosnian ex-boyfriend was when she threw her worst insults and swearwords at him during a fight.  I tried to explain to her that these swearwords are more like interjections for us, but I don't think she understood the actual magnitude of the difference.


----------



## Athaulf

Kolan said:


> Well, I just realized  that I was not clear enough, talking about the matter. I wanted to mention only the word _p.zda (п.зда)_, not the entire expression (which I believe is truly international).



I'm pretty sure that this word is pan-Slavic. I don't think there's a single Slavic language that wouldn't have it. 

In fact, when it comes to the words _p*zda_ and _k*rva_, I think one could hardly find any words that are so easily intelligible across any two given Slavic languages! They sound identical even in so remote Slavic languages as, say, Croatian and Polish.


----------



## Kolan

Athaulf said:


> and _k*rva_, I think one could hardly find any words that are so easily intelligible across any two given Slavic languages!


In Russian, as I feel it, and this looks to be a common opinion, курва is just a quite common, tolerated and unbanned, although unpleasant word, meaning a woman with a bad character but without any negative sexual connotation.


----------



## Tolovaj_Mataj

Athaulf said:


> In fact, when it comes to the words _p*zda_ and _k*rva_, I think one could hardly find any words that are so easily intelligible across any two given Slavic languages! They sound identical even in so remote Slavic languages as, say, Croatian and Polish.


Not really totally identical, but close enough. Pizda is the same also in Slovene, but 'a prostitute' is spelled with b: kurba.


----------



## natasha2000

Kolan said:


> Well, I just realized that I was not clear enough, talking about the matter. I wanted to mention only the word _p.zda (п.зда)_, not the entire expression (which I believe is truly international).


 
As a matter of fact, I don't think so... There is nothing similar to this expression in English, for example, in Spanish either (except in Argentina, but it is particularly Argentinian swearing, I have never heard anything similar here in Spain, for example), and I am pretty sure there isn't in most of other languages...


----------



## skye

Tolovaj_Mataj said:


> Not really totally identical, but close enough. Pizda is the same also in Slovene, but 'a prostitute' is spelled with b: kurba.


 
What, no asterisks?


----------



## Woland

we also use pizda(the same meaning as in Russian) so it is an international word. The same happens when it comes to ''curva''


----------



## Woland

Kolan said:


> Sounds very common to a Russian ear, except of numbers. I truly believed that this kind of the Russian swearing is not common to the South Slavic languages, but now I am convinced by the opposite.


This is not the only swearing we took from Russian,but it's the most important one and the most used one. Pizdets it's also used but ,unlike Russian,in Romanian it means something good like ''this thing rocks''


----------



## Jana337

Moderator note: You needn't use asterisks but it would be great if you could put one, two or three  (according to the degree of offensiveness) next to dangerous words so that learners and other readers are aware of their potential impact.


----------



## Glitz

Athaulf said:


> I recommend googling this name for a good laugh... this actually seems as one of her _milder _claims.  Not that we don't have this sort of stuff in Croatia, of course, although it's not as popular nowadays as it was in the 1990s.
> 
> Not just in Serbia.  In Croatia and Bosnia, male friends often say to each other things like this during a hearty jocular conversation.
> 
> When I came to Canada, it actually took me a while to realize that certain things that we often say casually and jokingly, or as an expression of mild and harmless annoyance, become far more extreme and aggressive insults when translated into English -- and in turn, things that English speakers say to each other only to express extreme anger and aggression sound much milder to us. I remember a funny conversation with a Canadian girl who said that she was surprised at how calm and unaffected her Bosnian ex-boyfriend was when she threw her worst insults and swearwords at him during a fight.  I tried to explain to her that these swearwords are more like interjections for us, but I don't think she understood the actual magnitude of the difference.


 
I agree, I think in Croatia it isn't really taboo to swear. Also as you said before Dalmatians do tend to combine things such as saints etc, in their swearing.


----------



## dudasd

Pizda; obscene Praslavic word (Praslavs – in linguistical context, ancient Slaves before dividing in different nations). Common (with variations) for the most of the Slavic languages. Borrowed by Albanians (_pisdä_) and Romanians (_pisdă_). Etymologists are discussing even today is it – or not – of the Indoeuropean origin. Some of them claimed its original meaning was "ass" (ie. *_pi-sed-ıo _– to sit). Some of them (Brückner) say it's tightly connected with ie. *_pis- _(to piss; in Serbian/Croatian _pišati_) and claim that it's not of the same root as "pička" (Maretić, Miklošić, Nehring, Prusik). For "pička" Maretić claimed it became of "pica", which is a diminutive of "pile" (little chicken), as an euphemism for the "shameful" part of the body. Skok finds the "missing link" in ancient Nordic word _fytta _– vulva. 


But now this Nordic _fytta _calls to my mind a certain Gipsy verb with root _fut- _, and the meaning is "to fuck"; all in all, sounds pretty Indoeuropean. At the other hand, Indoeuropean root _*pis- _sounds more possible and makes a link not only between "pizda" and "pička", but also with word "piša", which is used both for vulva as an euphemism and for penis of a little boy. In some parts of Croatia (Šibenik and surrounding villages) I've heard variant "piška" instead of "pička" (though I admit this is not a valid argument, for "č" is often replaced by "š" there). Diminutive "pica" is still in use. "Pizda" (and recently "pička") has been used as an offensive word, meaning "weak, cowardly man".

After this pile of serious stuff, something to make you smile: in one of the ex-Yugoslavian movies, one of the actors says:

"Pička – that's a genital organ. Pizda – that's a character feature."   

(And my serious advice: please, don't read the stuff of that Pjanović-something woman... I think she is not quite... you know.)


----------



## Kolan

skye said:


> What, no asterisks?


In Russian we nearly lost this meaning, and it could be heard even in the strictly censored Soviet movies. 

- Стасик, я голодна...
- Врёшь, _курва_, вчера чай пила!

Of course, _курва_ is a vulgar word, but not more than that and far to be taboo. And it can be also applied both to men and women.


----------



## skye

I just said that, because almost everyone who posted earlier put some asterisks in.


----------



## Woland

dudasd said:


> But now this Nordic _fytta _calls to my mind a certain Gipsy verb with root _fut- _, and the meaning is "to fuck"; all in all, sounds pretty Indoeuropean.


 
fut is a Romanian verb(means to fuck),and usually gypsies took words from us.


----------



## dudasd

Well, they used to borrow words from everywhere, that's true.  I guessed it was their word for the same verb is used in south Serbia, so it (probably) either belonged to ancient Balkan aboriginals' vocabulary (seems very possible) and Gipsies later brought it from Romania to southern Serbia, or was brought by Gipsies both to Romanian and Serbian area. But in both cases I don't see a strong connection between Nordic _fytta _and the root fut-; though the form is very similar. And thanks for your excellent perception; if the fut- is of ancient Balkan origin, it's one more proof that it's not a possible root of words pička and pizda, for Slavs had these words much before they had any contact with Balkan and south/eastern Europe.


----------



## robbie_SWE

dudasd said:


> Well, they used to borrow words from everywhere, that's true.  I guessed it was their word for the same verb is used in south Serbia, so it (probably) either belonged to ancient Balkan aboriginals' vocabulary (seems very possible) and Gipsies later brought it from Romania to southern Serbia, or was brought by Gipsies both to Romanian and Serbian area. But in both cases I don't see a strong connection between Nordic _fytta _and the root fut-; though the form is very similar. And thanks for your excellent perception; if the fut- is of ancient Balkan origin, it's one more proof that it's not a possible root of words pička and pizda, for Slavs had these words much before they had any contact with Balkan and south/eastern Europe.


 
The Romanian  "*a fute*" comes from Latin _futuĕre_. Possible Indo-European sources might exist. 

 robbie


----------



## dudasd

Bad mark for me , I forgot to check Latin. But Nordic _fytta _doesn't fit anywhere again? (Doesn't _fyt_.  )


----------



## natasha2000

duda, I am lost. What does fut mean in Serbian? I cannot recall any word and especially not a "bad word" that sounds something like that....


----------



## dudasd

natasha2000 said:


> duda, I am lost. What does fut mean in Serbian? I cannot recall any word and especially not a "bad word" that sounds something like that....


 
In some of the southern/eastern parts (not everywhere), Serbs sometimes use the verb "futati (se)" =  "jebati (se)" (sounds very similar to Macedonian fuka-, but doesn't seem to be of the same root). Also I've heard it from Gipsies all over the Serbia, including Belgrade, though I am not sure for Vojvodina. Maybe Serbs use that Gipsy word purposely, when they want to be "polite" and to replace the "main verb", so I don't know is it used as a part of their regular obscene vocabulary, or just sometimes, for fun, but I've heard it from a number of people from those areas.

Also, several times I've heard the verb "futati" with the meaning "to kick, to bang" (the variant "vućati" is very common word in central Serbia), so it can be tightly connected to the Romanian variant, just in a milder "translation".

A note: south-Serbian "futa" (meaning "apron" or "skirt" as a part of the traditional costume) has nothing with this verb.  It's just borrowed from Turkish language.


----------



## natasha2000

Thank you, Duda. I've  really never heard this. What occurs to me right now is the word "fukara".... (which means something like a "scumbag")... Does this word has anything to do with fut?


----------



## dudasd

No, the word "fukara" we borrowed from Turks and its essential meaning is "a poor person" or "the poor". The word is of Arabic origin (sg. faqir, pl. fuqara - sorry for not using diacritical marks on i and a) and has nothing with fuk- or fut- verbs. 

And I must admit, though I am using tons of dictionaries every day, my main sources have always been trains and busses. There you can hear so many interesting dialectal words, and of course... swearings.


----------



## Maja

slavic_one said:


> And that's the only thing I never tolerate in swearings - containing God!


 Likewise!


----------



## DenisBiH

MOD EDIT: Thread split from HERE.

Furthermore, _jebati _is used for many expressions in BCS that don't really involve any kind of f*cking. For example. _Đe si, jeb'o te!_ is a common greeting among friends here. Literally "Where are you, [he/I] f*cked you!".


----------



## Brainiac

Such greetings I have never heard here. Maybe exchanged between men, you're not going to greet a woman like that!


----------



## DenisBiH

Brainiac said:


> Such greetings I have never heard here. Maybe exchanged between men, you're not going to greet a woman like that!



It depends, if she is a very good friend, one of the "guys" and younger than, say, 25, I think it might pass. But yes, not entirely appropriate for women. But I have heard some pretty vulgar stuff said by women here entirely casually.


----------



## Brainiac

Well, I can say the same for a man younger than, say, 30, not a friend (a friend is a friend), who goes to the gym 2-5 a week.
If those stuffs were said casually, we should forgive them. But if some men have said something in cold blood, it will be hard....

More definition for "the" word you may find here (Slang for slang):
(We all here understand BCS)
http://vukajlija.com/pretraga/izraz?q=vukojebina


----------



## DenisBiH

I think this is as good an opportunity as any to share this short phrasebook. Brainiac, either spoken Bosnian is significantly more lax with vulgar words than spoken Serbian, or we belong to quite different social circles.


----------



## Santanawinds

As far as the use of vulgur words in dialog is concerned, this is something that had shocked me when I learned enough Croatian to be able to communicate with people in a casual way. Vulgur words seem to be taken much more casually than in the US where I was born and raised (middle class America). Such language in my part of the US is associated more with the immigrant migrant worker class and street gangs. But then again, this is more of a comparison of cultures and worldviews. Because the same can be said about the way people in CEE feel about nudity in beaches and plain breastfeeding in public. Americans do seem more puritanic when exposing parts of the body are concerned.


----------



## Santanawinds

PS. I forgot to write:
my comment about worldviews and culture differences is actually on-topic, because I have registered here mainly because I translate texts from Croatian to English, and have noticed that oftentimes though a word is vulgur in Croatian, its (American) English equivalent does not necessarily have to be vulgur, also. Translating the context and atmosphere is just as important as translating the meaning of the words. So were I to translate the quote from the article, I would not have written what the author of the article wrote (where the wolves f***). Instead, I would have just translated the sentence to "godforsaken middle of nowhere", and would have successfully portrayed the atmosphere and meaning of the sentence.

Vulgur in source language does not necessarily mean to translate to vulgur in target language.

Thanks! (Admin, please delete this all if necessary!)


----------



## Anicetus

DenisBiH said:


> Furthermore, _jebati _is used for many expressions in BCS that don't really involve any kind of f*cking. For example. _Đe si, jeb'o te!_ is a common greeting among friends here. Literally "Where are you, [he/I] f*cked you!".



I'd say that _jeb'o te_ is just a vulgar interjection with very little meaning of itself and can therefore be attached almost anywhere. 

On a side note, I'd interpret _jeb'o_ in this phrase as the so-called optative mood (like _živio!_, _dobro došao!_ etc.) rather than an incomplete perfect form, so literal translation is "fuck you!" or "may he/I fuck you!"


----------



## DenisBiH

Anicetus said:


> On a side note, I'd interpret _jeb'o_ in this phrase as the so-called optative mood (like _živio!_, _dobro došao!_ etc.) rather than an incomplete perfect form, so literal translation is "fuck you!" or "may he/I fuck you!"



You are right, optative makes much more sense. I wasn't thinking. 

On another side note, for non-BCS speakers, there are even softened expressions with _jebati _that are used primarily with children, emotionally distressed friends etc.

A child comes crying to you after having tripped and fallen. An appropriate comment:

_Pa šta je bilo, jebem mu miša?

_It can also be combined with baby talk_. __

Pa ta je bijo, ebem mu misa?
_


----------



## DenisBiH

DenisBiH said:


> I think this is as good an opportunity as any to share this short phrasebook.



Well, I might as well share this too. Praise the day when _kurac _as used colloquially got its own Wikipedia article. 

But just look at those fine nuances of meaning in phrases using _kurac_. It's perfection, a true esthetic masterpiece of human imagination and creativity.


----------



## Tassos

@DenisBIH
From what you are saying, I assume these wonderful phrases are used throughout the region and not only in Serbia? 

And to be more on the topic of swearwords, you all might like to know that the greek word for kurac is probably derived from a BCS word (it sounds exactly like the 3rd present singular of the verb *pucati - *I don't know why really, maybe someone heard the phrase puca mi kurac! and misinterpreted it ).


----------



## DenisBiH

@Tassos

They're quite common here too. The only exceptions I can see is _udario kurcem o ledinu_ which I'm not familiar with, and _Do kurca!_ which sounds a bit odd to me (I would use _(E,) u kurac!_ to convey the same meaning).



Athaulf said:


> However, when it comes to the folksh dialects, there are significant variations within Croatia. Generally, the worst swearwords can probably be found in the Dalmatian outback. People there tend to mix vulgar sexual content with elaborate theological references. People sometimes refuse to believe me when I say that in these ultra-conservative and deeply religious places, people casually combine four-letter sexual profanity with the names of God, Holy Trinity, Virgin Mary, blood and wounds of Jesus, etc.  On the other hand, the northwestern Kajkavian dialects tend to be somewhat milder than the standard language.




A friend of mine once told me that a Serbian (I think) psychologist (whose name I can't remember, unfortunately) explains it this way: when we swear at people, we tend to mention/curse those things/persons that we hold most dear. That might explain it. 

On the other hand, telling one of those "Yo mama's so fat..." jokes popular in other parts of the world (my nephew living in Australia seems to like them) can result in immediate violence by the same people who casually use_ jebem ti mater_. It's odd.


----------



## Brainiac

Opa, how many deleted posts here! Oh, Triglav, you must have been very busy these days... 

There are even more expressions with "the dearest part of the body" (this is true for men, to make it clear, women have different style ).
They should update Wikipedia. 

The psychology Denis mentioned is Freudian. (Who needs more information...)
There's one theory about the origin of the word (k****). 
конец = end (kurac in slang), konec means an end. And really, that part of the body is an end.

@Tassos: Oh, god, what are you going to learn from us!


----------



## TriglavNationalPark

Brainiac said:


> Opa, how many deleted posts here! Oh, Triglav, you must have been very busy these days...




Yes, you guys are certainly keeping me on my toes. 



Brainiac said:


> There's one theory about the origin of the word (k****).
> конец = end (kurac in slang), konec means an end. And really, that part of the body is an end.



According to Marko Snoj's _Slovenski etimološki slovar_, *kurac* (or *kurec* in Slovenian) originally meant "little rooster/cockerel." In fact, the word's feminine equivalent, *kura*, still means "hen/chicken" in Slovenian and several other Slavic languages.

Eventually, the meaning of *kurac*/*kurec* shifted to "penis." The same happened in English with the word "cock," which is now also slang for "penis."

I don't believe that *kurec* and *konec* are etymologically related; Snoj certainly doesn't indicate that.


----------



## DenisBiH

Brainiac said:


> The psychology Denis mentioned is Freudian. (Who needs more information...)



I had a nagging suspicion that Freud might be involved, but I didn't know for sure and I've never read that dear old chap.


----------



## Santanawinds

Bemti bigulica! What a topic 
DenisBH mentioned swear words that are used when addressing children or something cute and small - this was another culture shock for me, alongside the lax use of swear words in spoken language. 

Bemti bigulica
bemu miša

those are the versions I've heard.


----------



## Brainiac

No shocking please! Don't worry, we don't use swearwords with children, even what Denis mentioned - depends on person. I think those examples are not considered swearing. But it's true that you won't hear highly educated  (serious type of) persons saying this. Of course, they swear too, but not in this way.


----------



## Anicetus

Santanawinds said:


> Bemti bigulica! What a topic
> DenisBH mentioned swear words that are used when addressing children or something cute and small - this was another culture shock for me, alongside the lax use of swear words in spoken language.
> 
> Bemti bigulica
> bemu miša
> 
> those are the versions I've heard.



What's a _bigulic_? I've never heard that phrase before. 
I'm very familiar with the other one, though. It can be further softened to _jebem mu miša maloga_ or _jebem mu malog miša_. 
That reminds me there's also the interjection _jebo te patak_, not really for kids, but not offensive either.

It is indeed commonly agreed that _kurac_ is diminutive of _kur_, which originally referred to a rooster. It can be traced back to the Proto-Indo-European root _*kowr-_ which also gave words for screaming, shouting and so on is some other language branches. If I'm not mistaken, the word is still _kur_ in some Slavic languages, West South Slavs have apparently been humble about their special parts.  _Kurva_ (< PSl. _*kury_, G _*kurъve_) was originally a hen. _Kokot_, which is one of the words for a rooster in the modern language, is sometimes used as an euphemism for _kurac_ in certain swearing phrases, such as _koji kokot_, _pun mi je kokot_...


----------



## DenisBiH

Anicetus said:


> That reminds me there's also the interjection _jebo te patak_, not really for kids, but not offensive either.



Now that you mention this, the following nursery rhyme recited to me by my aunt comes to mind:

_Pajo Patak
dobio zadatak
da poljubi patku
u guzicu slatku_

("Donald Duck got the task, to kiss a (she-)duck on the sweet ass")

Seriously, what's wrong with us?


----------



## Brainiac

I don't know Denis, I've never heard such songs. I don't remember that anything with sexual connotation was mentioned to me (nor to my friends) when we were children, sex was something like taboo (almost never said in front of little girls). But I do remember curses of phallic connotations, implying impotence and "bad products" of a person/society.


----------



## DenisBiH

Brainiac said:


> I don't know Denis, I've never heard such songs. I don't remember that anything with sexual connotation was mentioned to me (nor to my friends) when we were children, sex was something like taboo (almost never said in front of little girls). But I do remember curses of phallic connotations, implying impotence and "bad products" of a person/society.



How about children's jokes such as asking someone _Jesi li se ikad vozio/la u Džeti pozadi?_? Although I don't know if that would've worked in Serbia, I think you distinguish between dž and đ better than us.

You know, I remember a time when I was perhaps 12 or 13, and a friend of mine, really angry at someone, used the curse _Idi do đavola!_ ("Go to the devil!") in front of the whole class to the unprecedented bout of laughter from everyone in the classroom. The reason was that such a curse was totally inappropriate on account of its softness and the fact that the first association one has when hearing it are comic books (Zagor, Blek Stena etc.). I still think _Sto mu gromova Darkvuda!_ when I see someone using _(Idi) do đavola/vraga!_.


----------



## Brainiac

DenisBiH said:


> _Jesi li se ikad vozio/la u Džeti pozadi?_?


Never heard of this! What's this?


----------



## DenisBiH

Brainiac said:


> Never heard of this! What's this?



Try rearranging the syllables in _u Džeti pozadi_ (and replacing dž with đ). A similar one is asking someone to say _Teta Melita sa petog sprata_.

At this point I feel the need to recommend listening to "Kauboj iz Bosne" by Pero Defformero.


----------



## Anicetus

DenisBiH said:


> A similar one is asking someone to say _Teta Melita sa petog sprata_.



Or _žene se rumene_. Or when two persons ask another one whether they are _mamuti_. Not to mention all the jokes like _pozdravio te Đuro_.

Brainiac, I can't believe you didn't hear things like this at school.


----------



## DenisBiH

Anicetus said:


> Or _žene se rumene_. Or when two persons ask another one whether they are _mamuti_. Not to mention all the jokes like _pozdravio te Đuro_.
> 
> Brainiac, I can't believe you didn't hear things like this at school.




Another one involves getting someone to say _osam _and then responding with _na kurcu te nosam_ . Ah, all those memories are coming back to me now.


----------



## Santanawinds

bemti bigulica - maybe that's just gibberish. I have no idea what a bigulic is.

osan osan nos ti posran - that's the version I hear. Maybe it's a Dalmatian version, since I hear osaN instead of osaM

PS. where do you find the smileys on this forum?


----------



## itreius

Yeah, I've heard that quite a number of times. 

_bemu bi(n)gulicu_

Unfortunately, I have no clue as to what _bi(n)gulica_ means, it could very well be just gibberish like you said.

The curse words here are generally the same as everywhere else nowadays as well as the jokes among kids (like the ones mentioned by DenisBiH, and I'm pretty sure that I'm younger than most of you yet I've heard them in my school days). Still, you can hear more archaic local expressions among some older folk now and then, those seem to focus more on the devil (_vrag_) and Jesus (_Jezuš_) than on the word _kurac_, so then you have something like

_Vrag ti se z materu nahitaval_

or even more localized variants that I happened to hear

_Jezuš ti se z materu po Save nahitaval_

nahitavati <- hitati (to throw)

That's some pretty weird stuff right there but it goes to show how imaginative people are.

Oh and the smilies are right above the edit box if you're using the standard editor or the enhanced interface (check your settings, misc options). The basic editor might not have those.


----------



## DenisBiH

itreius said:


> _Jezuš ti se z materu po Save nahitaval_



This reminds me of _Dabogda te mater po Neretvi kukom tražila_ (there is also a version with _po Savi_).

From those _Dabogda..._ joke-curses, I also like _Dabogda te mater u ćevapu prepoznala_. And the newer one for computer geeks: _Dabogda ti žena bila open source_.


----------



## Anicetus

Santanawinds said:


> osan osan nos ti posran - that's the version I hear. Maybe it's a Dalmatian version, since I hear osaN instead of osaM



I think that version is older, or at least "softer". There are such jokes with two versions for other numbers as well. By the way, _m_ changing to _n_ at the end of words isn't exclusively Dalmatian, it occurs along most of Croatian coast (with a notable exception of the Dubrovnik region).




itreius said:


> _Jezuš ti se z materu po Save nahitaval_



Off-topic, but I find it interesting that some variants of Kajkavian keep the dative/locative ending from the old main feminine paragidm _-e < *-ě_. Is the genitive ending _-i_ (< *_-y_) then?


----------



## Brainiac

Believe it or not, but all above I have never heard till now. Really, who are you?  Or maybe I should ask myself who I am. 
That's not my language, I don't want to sound snobbish, but no one around me speaks like that. I've heard similar jokes, but never said them myself. Frankly, I don't like that jokes at all. I like, for instance, British "serious" humor.  

(By the way,  I would NEVER mention "Jesus" in a curse. Tomorrow is our Easter, I guess I am the only one here who goes to church.... )


----------



## DenisBiH

Brainiac said:


> Believe it or not, but all above I have never heard till now. Really, who are you?  Or maybe I should ask myself who I am.
> That's not my language, I don't want to sound snobbish, but no one around me speaks like that.



I'm sure you're not a snob. But now that you've mentioned that word, in Sarajevo there is a derogatory term for snobbish, usually well-connected people: FGR (it stands for _fina gradska raja_; lit. "nice city folk").


----------



## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> Believe it or not, but all above I have never heard till now. Really, who are you?  Or maybe I should ask myself who I am.
> That's not my language, I don't want to sound snobbish, but no one around me speaks like that. I've heard similar jokes, but never said them myself. Frankly, I don't like that jokes at all. I like, for instance, British "serious" humor.



I wasn't taught such language by my parents either (except the lighter phrases, such is aforementioned mouse and duck loving) and I can't say I'm a fan of that kind of humour. Keep in mind jokes like the ones above are supposed to be amusing to an average ten-year-old. And -- I hope I don't sound too snobbish -- children of different social classes as well as intellectual levels are mixed in elementary school over here.


----------



## itreius

Anicetus said:


> Off-topic, but I find it interesting that some variants of Kajkavian keep the dative/locative ending from the old main feminine paragidm _-e < *-ě_. Is the genitive ending _-i_ (< *_-y_) then?


In the variant that I had in mind at the moment of writing that post, the genitive case of _mater_ would be _materæ_ (_æ_ being the actual IPA _æ_ although most people would write it down simply as _-e_) and dative case would be _matere_. I can't say I've ever heard _-i_ being used for genitive.


----------



## el_tigre

Athaulf said:


> However, when it comes to the folksh dialects, there are significant variations within Croatia. Generally, the worst swearwords can probably be found in the Dalmatian outback. People there tend to mix vulgar sexual content with elaborate theological references. People sometimes refuse to believe me when I say that in these ultra-conservative and deeply religious places, people casually combine four-letter sexual profanity with the names of God, Holy Trinity, Virgin Mary, blood and wounds of Jesus, etc.  On the other hand, the northwestern Kajkavian dialects tend to be somewhat milder than the standard language.



This reminds on the anegdote at the beginning of Homeland war. A German priest (that understood almost nothing of Croatian) came to Dalmatia on a visit. He spoke to some local Croatian priest.
-_I like it here. People are very religious. Every how I hear them mentioning "God, Holy Trinity, Virgin Mary, Jesus"_

Croatian priest was shocked.  He did not dare to mention that those were probably the curses. 

Fortunately, in the last 15 years levele of curses has decreased.


----------



## Tassos

First let me say that in Greece there are also quite a few curses involving God, Virgin Mary and Jesus. They are the most vulgar things someone can say when he is angry, and very common for that  but I won't describe the people using them as _ultra-conservative and deeply religious_, people like that consider these curses as mortal sins 

Now to get back to the topic of the thread, a few questions (nothing like a little grammar to spice things up ):
First, the verb jebati is both perfective and imperfective but has quite a few prefixed perfective derivatives. Can some tell me what they mean and what is their "degree of vulgarity" so to speak...? (and as I don't know it , I put the little yellow "vulgarity marks" beside each one)

najebati 
pojebati 
odjebati 
sjebati 
podjebati 
zajebati 

And second, the only other verb similar to jebati  I've ever heard is kresati ( in a Riblja Čorba song of course). What can you tell me about that? Is it common and is it considered more vulgar than jebati ?


----------



## Santanawinds

After I'd turned off my computor last night, I remembered one more expression and had a good laugh before going to sleep. So here it is:
Pičkin dim
(trying to visualize that one!)
the American equivalent would be: piece of cake
I guess the more bening version would be: mačji kašalj
But apparantly, BCS speakers have a vulgur version for just about everything


----------



## iobyo

DenisBiH said:


> Another one involves getting someone to say _osam _and then responding with _na kurcu te nosam_ . Ah, all those memories are coming back to me now.



I quite like _molim?_ — _opalim te golim!_.


----------



## Anicetus

Tassos said:


> Now to get back to the topic of the thread, a few questions (nothing like a little grammar to spice things up ):
> First, the verb jebati is both perfective and imperfective but has quite a few prefixed perfective derivatives.



That's usually so, but I'd say some people use _jebati_ as imperfective and _pojebati_ as its perfective counterpart.



> Can some tell me what they mean and what is their "degree of vulgarity" so to speak...? (and as I don't know it , I put the little yellow "vulgarity marks" beside each one)



They're all very vulgar... maybe those not actually referring to sex slightly less so.

_najebati_ - to get screwed (in a figurative sense); _najebati se_ is a satiative verb like _najesti se_, so its meaning is: to have a lot of sex, to completely satiate your sexual appetite 
_pojebati_ - the perfective counterpart of _jebati_ 
_odjebati_ - to fuck off, to reject, to dismiss; theoretically, it could also be a perfective counterpart of _jebati_ 
_sjebati_ - to screw up 
_podjebati_ -  to screw over, to outwit
_zajebati_ - to fuck/screw up; _zajebavati se_ means: to kid 



> And second, the only other verb similar to jebati  I've ever heard is kresati ( in a Riblja Čorba song of course). What can you tell me about that? Is it common and is it considered more vulgar than jebati ?



The primary meaning of _kresati_ is to lop or to be in process of lighting a fire by rubbing or hitting two pieces of stone (there's probably a better English expression I don't know of), it refers to sex only in jargon. Its perfective counterpart is _kresnuti_. Other words are _ševiti, prčiti, prcati, fukati_... They're all commonly understood, but none of them is as common as _jebati_. I wouldn't say they're more vulgar than the basic verb, maybe _ševiti_ is even a little bit less vulgar (but it's still quite vulgar).




Santanawinds said:


> After I'd turned off my computor last night, I remembered one more expression and had a good laugh before going to sleep. So here it is:
> Pičkin dim
> (trying to visualize that one!)
> the American equivalent would be: piece of cake
> I guess the more bening version would be: mačji kašalj
> But apparantly, BCS speakers have a vulgur version for just about everything



Another fun one is _popizditi_ - to go nuts.


----------



## Tassos

Anicetus thanks very much for clearing things up. I read somewhere that the derivatives of jebati are more acceptable than the main verb, but after reading your response I'll keep away from them too in the future


----------



## Anicetus

Well, it's hard to determine the exact degree of vulgarity. Maybe they are more acceptable, but they're still far from not being vulgarisms.


----------



## Brainiac

To enrich your vocabulary Tassos 



Anicetus said:


> _najebati_ - to get screwed (in a figurative sense); _najebati se_ is a satiative verb like _najesti se_, so its meaning is: to have a lot of sex, to completely satiate your sexual appetite
> _pojebati_ - the perfective counterpart of _jebati_
> _odjebati_ - to fuck off, to reject, to dismiss; theoretically, it could also be a perfective counterpart of _jebati_
> _sjebati_ - to screw up  *or to screw somebody over, to scold someone severely (Sjeban sam načisto), or to break, destroy, demage sth (Sjebati kočnice - pokvariti kočnice)*
> _podjebati_ -  to screw  over, to outwit *(???) *usually  *podjebavati = jebati u zdrav mozak = zajebavati sa pozicije superiornog*
> _zajebati_ - to fuck/screw up; _zajebavati se_ means: to kid  *zajebati se - zeznuti se, prevariti se, to make mistake*
> 
> 
> The primary meaning of _kresati_ is to lop or to be in process of lighting a fire by rubbing or hitting two pieces of stone (there's probably a better English expression I don't know of), it refers to sex only in jargon. *Body rubbing -  to press two surfaces against each other and move them backwards and forwards; to be pressed together and move in this way*
> 
> Its perfective counterpart is _kresnuti_. Other words are _ševiti, prčiti, prcati, fukati_... *opaliti, karati, raskantati (ženu) (this is VERY rude!!!) (I can't believe that I'm writing this **)*


----------



## Anicetus

Maybe _podjebati_ isn't that common in the sense of outwit, but I didn't make it up, HJP agrees with me. _Podjebavati_ means the same as _podbadati_, _izazivati_ (to provoke somebody) as I understand it.

I understand the logic behind _kresati_, my point was just that it doesn't always have anything to do with sex. _Karati_ is one of the most frequent alternatives, I don't know how I forgot about it. I've never head _raskantati_ before, though.


----------



## Brainiac

Outwit is zajebati in SRB, podjebati is rarely used (in this sense, you may coin nadjebati  ). Podjebavati nekoga.... yes, it's izazivati i podbadati too, but primary mental torture, as I understand.


----------



## Anicetus

Anyway, there are other derivatives too, such as _izjebati_ - like _pojebati_, but profoundly or _prijebati se_ (with the logical subject in dative) - to get the urge to _jebati_.


----------

