# BCS: sladak/slatki



## Roxannah_

Hi everyone,

I came across these sentences:

*Kako je sladak ovaj pas!
Kako se zove taj **slatki pas?*

My grammar says both forms are accepted, but that is all. I'm wondering, are both these masculine adjective forms interchangeable and is the use of one or the other simply a matter of preference? 

(Could I say *Kako je slatki ovaj pas* and *Kako se zove taj sladak pas*?)

Or is there any grammatical reason why one is prefered over the other in the given examples? Using any of the two forms does it confer the sentence the same meaning, or is there any difference (even if slight)?


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## ticegatac

Hi Roxannah,
sladak and slatki are not interchangeable adjecitves and it is improper to say/write Kako je slatki ovaj pas but only Kako je sladak ovaj pas; their meaning is the same, but for some reason, I really can't say why, slatki is not acceptable with ovaj demonstrative pronoun. On the other hand it is acceptible to say both Kako se zove taj sladak pas and ... slatki pas. Slatki goes with some words, and sladak with other, but we native speakers of Serbian do not think of it, we know subconsciously what is right. It's a bit illogical and transcends grammar, but that' s the way it is; at least I don't know the rule by which this case is governed.


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## DenisBiH

This may be useful (page 20). I personally would say only the first two sentences are correct, though I've heard things such as "Kako je slatki..." in colloquial speech.


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## phosphore

Those forms differ in the category called _pridevski vid_, which could roughly translate as the _adjective definiteness_. This category, which used to diferentiate all three genders, all seven cases, except for the vocative, and both numbers, now is basically visible only in the nominative/accusative masculine singular forms. And even there the use is not systematic.

There is one rule, however. Only indefinite forms are used in the predicative function, definite forms being those in -i, and indefinite forms those in -Ø. Thus, you can't say

_*Kako je slatki taj pas!_

it sounds completely wrong (to my ears), but you may say, (almost) indistinctively,

_Kako se zove taj slatki pas?_

using the definite form, or

_Kako se zove taj sladak pas?_

using the indefinite form.


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## DenisBiH

> Kako se zove taj sladak pas?


Really? This sounds strange to me.

EDIT: my mother agrees with me.


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## phosphore

DenisBiH said:


> Really? This sounds strange to me.


 
It is true that if you still perceive these forms as being definite and indefinite, it sounds odd or even incorrect to use the indefinite form with a demonstrative pronoun, but the truth is that the distinction is not made anymore, and the two forms are interchangeable in all but the predicative position. There might be some regional differences however, I wouldn't know.

I did a quick search and Google gives 550 hits for "taj slatki", while giving 216 hits for "taj sladak". Meanwhile, it shows 465 hits for "neki slatki" and 217 hits for "neki sladak". Which tells me that the distinction is completely lost and that the long forms are somehow preferred to the short forms in the attributive position.


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## Roxannah_

Thank you all for responding! 

So if I understood correctly, in practical terms, it would be something like this:

Moj ključ je *crn*. (crni being incorrect) 

Moj *crni/crn* (both accepted, although *crni* would be grammatically more correct) ključ je velik. (veliki being incorrect).

Please please tell me I got it right


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## DenisBiH

Roxannah_ said:


> Thank you all for responding!
> 
> So if I understood correctly, in practical terms, it would be something like this:
> 
> Moj ključ je *crn*. (crni being incorrect)
> 
> Moj *crni/crn* (both accepted, although *crni* would be grammatically more correct) ključ je velik. (veliki being incorrect).
> 
> Please please tell me I got it right



You got it right. 

Note:
"Moj ključ je crni" is also correct but the meaning is different.

Moj ključ je crn - My key is black
Moj ključ je crni - My key is the black one (keys of other colors are also there, and you're telling someone which one to give to you)


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> Thank you all for responding!
> 
> So if I understood correctly, in practical terms, it would be something like this:
> 
> Moj ključ je *crn*. (crni being incorrect)
> 
> Moj *crni/crn* (both accepted, although *crni* would be grammatically more correct) ključ je velik. (veliki being incorrect).
> 
> Please please tell me I got it right


 
You did 

Though the form _velik_ is not much in use and you may use _veliki _in both attributive and predicative functions. This may be an alignment with the adjective _mali_, which, like some other adjectives such as _jarki, žarki, bojni, vojni,_ _levi, desni,_ all in _-ski, -čki _and_ -ški_, and most in _-ni_, _-nji_ and _-ji_, doesn't have a short form, or something else, but it's an exception anyway.


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## Roxannah_

DenisBiH said:


> You got it right.
> 
> Note:
> "Moj ključ je crni" is also correct but the meaning is different.
> 
> Moj ključ je crn - My key is black
> Moj ključ je crni - My key is the black one (keys of other colors are also there, and you're telling someone which one to give to you)



Oh? Oh!
Then "Moj ključ je *crni*" is not incorrect as I though after all.

Well then this brings me a whole new perspective over BCS! All this time I was under the impression "definiteness" in BCS could only be inferred from context (or I never read my grammar book far enough to have found out otherwise). Now I understand there are indeed specific grammar rules that contemplate this issue and compensate the fact there are no definite and indefinite articles in BCS. This is a big discovery for me


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## DenisBiH

Just wait for phosphore to confirm "Moj ključ je crni" for Serbian, we seem to have some regional differences in usage here.


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## Roxannah_

phosphore said:


> You did
> 
> Though the form _velik_ is not much in use and you may use _veliki _in both attributive and predicative functions. This may be an alignment with the adjective _mali_, which, like some other adjectives such as _jarki, žarki, bojni, vojni,_ and all in _-ski, -čki _and_ -ški_, _-ni_ (_narodni_) and _-ji_ (_dečiji_), doesn't have a short form, or something else, but it's an exception anyway.



Are you saying the premise behind what I wrote is correct but it was a bad choice of adjective as *veliki* could be an exception the same way *mali* is?


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## phosphore

DenisBiH said:


> Just wait for phosphore to confirm "Moj ključ je crni" for Serbian, we seem to have some regional differences in usage here.


 
Good remark, Denis. No difference in Serbia on that matter.

The thing is that in a sentence like

_Moj ključ je crni (ključ)._

the adjective is in the attributive position, but the noun, being completely redundant, is omitted.


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> Are you saying the premise behind what I wrote is correct but it was a bad choice of adjective as *veliki* could be an exception the same way *mali* is?


 
That's right. The adjective _mali_ has no short form, so the long form is used in all cases, while the adjective _veliki_ does have a short form _velik_, but it is almost out of use today.

I probably shouldn't have made that remark, because _velik_ is more correct than _veliki _would be in your sentence, if we were to follow strictly the rules of grammar, and it doesn't sound strange or anything. Now I'm just confusing you, I'm sorry.


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## DenisBiH

> Those forms differ in the category called _pridevski vid_, which could roughly translate as the _adjective definiteness_. This category, which used to diferentiate all three genders, all seven cases, except for the vocative, and both numbers, now is basically visible only in the nominative/accusative masculine singular forms.



Another thing that night be useful to mention are other cases for short forms. For example, forms such as _*crna* ključa, *crnu* ključu_ exist, but they sound somewhat archaic/poetic/Croatian to me. Perhaps it's subjective and I'm wrong on the sounding part, though.

Also, crna f. and crno n. sound different in my speech when used as definite or indefinite, I think.


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## phosphore

DenisBiH said:


> Another thing that night be useful to mention are other cases for short forms. For example, forms such as _*crna* ključa, *crnu* ključu_ exist, but they sound somewhat archaic/poetic/Croatian to me. Perhaps it's subjective and I'm wrong on the sounding part, though.


 
As far as I'm concerned you're right, the declined indefinite forms are not used anymore at all.

But for the sake of completeness, here's the complete declension of the adjective _crn_:

Indefinite forms
m.sg. N. crn, G. crna, D=L. crnu, A=N/G, V. crni, I. crnim
n.sg. N=A=V. crno, G. crna, D=L. crnu, I. crnim
f.sg. N. crna, G. crne, D=L. crnoj, A. crnu, V. crna, I. crnom

m.pl. N=V. crni, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a), A. crne
n.pl. N=A=V. crna, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a)
f.pl. N=V. crne, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a), A. crne

Definite forms
m.sg. N. crni, G. crnog, D=L. crnom, A=N/G, V. crni, I. crnim
n.sg. N=A=V. crno, G. crnog, D=L. crnom, I. crnim
f.sg. N. crna, G. crne, D=L. crnoj, A. crnu, V. crna, I. crnom

m.pl. N=V. crni, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a), A. crne
n.pl. N=A=V. crna, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a)
f.pl. N=V. crne, G. crnih, D=I=L. crnim(a), A. crne

Those accentual distinction you mention exist in my dialect too, and may be maintained through all the declension.


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## Roxannah_

phosphore said:


> That's right. The adjective _mali_ has no short form, so the long form is used in all cases, while the adjective _veliki_ does have a short form _velik_, but it is almost out of use today.
> 
> I probably shouldn't have made that remark, because _velik_ is more correct than _veliki _would be in your sentence, if we were to follow strictly the rules of grammar, and it doesn't sound strange or anything. Now I'm just confusing you, I'm sorry.



No no it's okay, I understand. But I did freak out there for like 10 seconds before I read the word "exception"


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## Roxannah_

phosphore said:


> As far as I'm concerned you're right, the declined indefinite forms are not used anymore at all.



Could you give me an example of a non-declined indefinite form?


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> Could you give me an example of a non-declined indefinite form?


 
Oh, I meant that only the nominative case of all indefinite forms is used, although theoretically there are forms for all the cases.

Thus, you'll hear both _beo zid_ and _beli zid,_ but only _belog zida_, never _bela zida._ This other form might be found only in grammar books, older prose and poetry.


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> That's right. The adjective _mali_ has no short form, so the long form is used in all cases, while the adjective _veliki_ does have a short form _velik_, but it is almost out of use today.



It is not so straightforward: there is a indefinite form _malen_, and it is used quite a lot. However, there is also an alternative definite form _maleni. _Thus, we have an asymmetry: 

maleni, mali  (definite) : malen (indefinite), mali (indefinite)

They are basically 100% synonymous: I would say that "maleni" describes a tinier thing than "mali", but that's just a nuance.


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## phosphore

Duya said:


> It is not so straightforward: there is a indefinite form _malen_, and it is used quite a lot. However, there is also an alternative definite form _maleni. _Thus, we have an asymmetry:
> 
> maleni, mali (definite) : malen (indefinite), mali (indefinite)
> 
> They are basically 100% synonymous: I would say that "maleni" describes a tinier thing than "mali", but that's just a nuance.


 
To an extent I suppose you are right, but then again, is

_Ovaj duks mi je malen._

instead of

_Ovaj duks mi je mali._

something you would really say? I don't know. The adjectives _mali_ and _malen_ might be interchangeable only in the attributive position.


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## TriglavNationalPark

Duya said:


> It is not so straightforward: there is a indefinite form _malen_, and it is used quite a lot. However, there is also an alternative definite form _maleni. _Thus, we have an asymmetry:
> 
> maleni, mali (definite) : malen (indefinite), mali (indefinite)
> 
> They are basically 100% synonymous: I would say that "maleni" describes a tinier thing than "mali", but that's just a nuance.


 
Interesting! Slovenian also has *mali* = small, but it's always _definite_. Instead, there is a very different but perfectly synonymous _indefinite_ equivalent: *majhen *(which lacks the _definite_ form).


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> To an extent I suppose you are right, but then again, is
> 
> _Ovaj duks mi je malen._
> 
> instead of
> 
> _Ovaj duks mi je mali._
> 
> something you would really say? I don't know.



Sounds natural to me, I would possibly utter either. But I get your point that for some people the first one does not fit; it is one of those situations where one just _feels_ that one form is (in)appropriate, but when you try to analyse it consciously, you cannot really tell why.


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