# banco and banca (Italian words)



## yakor

Hello, everybody!
Could you tell me please from which words the Italian words "banco" and "banca" came? What is common between them, or they have nothing to do with each other? Please answer in English. I don't know Italian.


----------



## berndf

_Banco_ and _banca_ are essentially the same word. Both are cognate with English _bench_. The financial institution got its name from medieval money changers who were called _banchieri _because the sat at _banchi_ (here meaning: _tables, desks, counters_) at the entrances of the markets.


----------



## Quiviscumque

berndf is right. I would like to add that these words are not specifically Italian: they are shared by Romance languages and come from a Late Latin "bancus", in turn from a Germanic "Bank". What is specifically Italian is using them to denote a financial institution.


----------



## berndf

Quiviscumque said:


> What is specifically Italian is using them to denote a financial institution.


... a usage which has, of course, by now spread into many other languages.


----------



## fdb

In which case “banca” and “bench” are not cognates. “banca” is a loanword from a Germanic form cognate to English “bench”. Or am I being too pedantic?


----------



## rbrunner

The usually interesting Etymonline site has this about _bank_:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=bank&searchmode=none

The Proto-Germanic _*bankiz_ is described here:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/bankiz


----------



## berndf

fdb said:


> Or am I being too pedantic?


I would say a little bit; but your description is of course right.


----------



## Alxmrphi

I was reading the other day about the origin of the Italian word _azzannare_ coming from_ zanna_, which in turn came from German 'Zahn' via the Germanic Lombards in Northern Italy. Might it be that this is also how _banca _entered Italian to then develop the meaning relating to a financial institution (via the Lombards)?


----------



## berndf

Alxmrphi said:


> I was reading the other day about the origin of the Italian word _azzannare_ coming from_ zanna_, which in turn came from German 'Zahn' via the Germanic Lombards in Northern Italy. Might it be that this is also how _banca _entered Italian to then develop the meaning relating to a financial institution (via the Lombards)?


No, the imported word is _banco _meaning _bench, table_ or _desk_. _Banca _is derived from that meaning as described above.


----------



## Alxmrphi

berndf said:


> No, the imported word is _banco _meaning _bench, table_ or _desk_. _Banca _is derived from that meaning as described above.



Whether it was_ banco_ or_ banca_ is important from a pedantic point of view, however, the question was about the transfer from German into Italian. I said '_Via the Lombards_' meaning any potential word form  could have entered but where it came from _ultimately_ was from that source. I know that the preference here is to always choose an interpretation of a question where you can respond with a correction to the other person rather than an affermation, but I personally felt that was a bit unwarranted here. I looked elsewhere and I found out I was right in that the origin is from the Lombardic _*bank_.


----------



## berndf

Maybe I misunderstood you. I took your question to mean if _banco _and _banca_ entered Italian as separate words with separate meanings from the same Germanic source. My "no" applied only to this. The split of the words and their meanings happened within Italian. I did not mean to contradict you on the question whether the word entered Italian through _Lombardic_ or another Germanic language. I have no opinion on that.


----------



## Alxmrphi

Ah, maybe I should have included the earlier quote about Late Latin _bancus _coming from Germanic. This is what I was 'doubting' in my question (but not wanting to directly question the person who said it). I just wanted to pose the question about how the Germanic root entered Italian in the first place, irrespective of what forms then split and adapted to different meanings like financial institution (which then spread outwards elsewhere like you said in #4).


----------



## berndf

I see. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Quiviscumque

Alxmrphi said:


> Ah, maybe I should have included the earlier quote about Late Latin _bancus _coming from Germanic. This is what I was 'doubting' in my question (but not wanting to directly question the person who said it).



Who knows... You see, even the official Spanish dictionary (DRAE) says that "banco" (attested in Castilian since 13th century) comes from Old French. So you can think that Italian "banco" comes from Longobardic, French "banque" from Frankish, and Late Latin "bancus", Castilian "banco", etc. are loans from the French or Italian.

On the other hand, the Hispanic etymologist par excellence, Joan Corominas, says that "bancus" existed in Late Latin and Romance words come from it. 

I am not a specialist (just a poor amateur), so there is perhaps a Late Latin source that have settled the issue; I don't know.


----------



## miguel89

According to Zanichelli's Etymological Dictionary, the Italian word came either from Frankish or from Late Latin:


> Dal franco *bank, la ‘panca che correva tutt'intorno alla stanza ed era strettamente combinata con la parete di legno, che le faceva così da spalliera’ (A. Schiaffini in ID VI [1930] 52, che riprende la spiegazione del FEW I 238; Migl. St. lin.). Non è escluso, come confermerebbe la diffusione di bancalis, che bancum sia già entrato nel lat. parl. in epoca imperiale (SLI XI [1985] 19). La specializzazione ‘azienda di credito’ è sorta in Italia e di qui passata ad altre lingue.


----------



## onoda

Alxmrphi said:


> Ah, maybe I should have included the earlier quote about Late Latin _bancus _coming from Germanic. This is what I was 'doubting' in my question (but not wanting to directly question the person who said it). I just wanted to pose the question about how the Germanic root entered Italian in the first place, irrespective of what forms then split and adapted to different meanings like financial institution (which then spread outwards elsewhere like you said in #4).



It is hard to establish how and when the words are entered in  Italian,replacing the word mensa, if through Langobards or Goths or  others germanic populations._Obviously_ the financial business  was not unknown,as you can read in this short but interesting article  (in italian,sorry),that explain also because in French language it is  used the word argent and other curiosities. sites.google.com/site/etimologiachepassione/bancarotta


----------



## yakor

"Bancus" (banco) is a place for sitting. The Italian money's changers used the benches as a table?  How could this be?


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> "Bancus" (banco) is a place for sitting.


Not only. There are _sitting benches_ and there are _working benches_. Italian _banco _also has these two meaning. The _working bench_ of a money changer is his desk.


----------



## xari

yakor said:


> "Bancus" (banco) is a place for sitting. The Italian money's changers used the benches as a table?  How could this be?



Wouldn't it be something similar to Russian words стул and стол, both relating to Proto-Germanic *stolaz?


----------



## yakor

xari said:


> Wouldn't it be something similar to Russian words стул and стол, both relating to Proto-Germanic *stolaz?


We have a lot of words taken from Latin, Greek  and other languages.
I don't know the etymology of Russian words. But стол and стул are different things. One for sitting (for ass) and the other for hands.
Also, it is not clear how to find the bank among different piled-up masses, places. What is the difference between the "bank" and a "mound" as  piled-up places?


----------



## Daffodil100

> Another possible origin of the word is from the Sanskrit words (ब्यय) 'byaya' (expense) and 'onka' (calculation) = byaya-onka. This word still survives in Bangla, which is one of Sanskrit's child languages. ব্যায় + অঙ্ক = ব্যাঙ্ক . Such expense calculations were the biggest part of mathematical treatises written by Indian mathematicians as early as 500 B.C.



From wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank


----------



## fdb

Yes, but this is wiki-rubbish.


----------



## rbrunner

The same Wikipedia, on the following page, gives that Bengali word as a loan from English, which to me at least makes more sense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_vocabulary


----------



## yakor

What is the difference between these  mounds and a bank as a heap? (moundS--->) http://im5-tub-ru.yandex.net/i?id=281552044-70-72&n=21


----------



## Daffodil100

fdb said:


> Yes, but this is wiki-rubbish.



Please prove it rubbish with reliable and solid evidence, instead of words.


----------



## fdb

The Italian word “banca” is used in this sense since the 14th century. Italian did not borrow words from Bengali in the 14th century. Look at a map.


----------



## Daffodil100

What is the root of Italian Banca? Did Italians invent this word themselves?

How do you explain that Bangalese have used the very similiar words since it was easy as 500 B.C. that is way earlier than 14th B.C. when Italians started to use this word?


----------



## berndf

Daffodil100 said:


> What is the root of Italian Banca? Did Italians invent this word themselves?


Please read the beginning of this thread. This question has been answered.


Daffodil100 said:


> How do you explain that Bangalese have used the very similiar words since it was easy as 500 B.C. that is way earlier than 14th B.C. when Italians started to use this word?


What is there in need to be explained? The words are not "very similar" but at best "vaguely similar" and no other connection has been demonstrated or at least made plausible. This so-called "similarity" means absolutely nothing.


----------



## Daffodil100

berndf said:


> Please read the beginning of this thread. This question has been answered.
> What is there in need to be explained? The words are not "very similar" but at best "vaguely similar" and no other connection has been demonstrated or at least made plausible. This so-called "similarity" means absolutely nothing.




I highly doubt that it is called vaguely similar that you claim as German, Italian and Sankrit belong to Indo-European languages. Many English words are derived from Sankrit. Would you say simply they are vaguely similar if you didn't know?  Many German words were derived from Latin, and Latin and Sankrit were ones of the oldest languages.

Because we don't eactly know the connection, so we need discuss it. I do not agree to call the opinion in Wikipedia is rubbish even it is wrong. Period.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Daffodil100 said:


> What is the root of Italian Banca? Did Italians invent this word themselves?
> 
> How do you explain that Bangalese have used the very similiar words since it was easy as 500 B.C. that is way earlier than 14th B.C. when Italians started to use this word?



Did Bengalese exist in 500 BC?


----------



## Daffodil100

Ben Jamin said:


> Did Bengalese exist in 500 BC?




What is your point? Do you refer to the nation or the country? 

I referred to Sankrit the language nowaday Banglanese still use.


----------



## rbrunner

Daffodil100 said:


> Because we don't eactly know the connection, so we need discuss it.



Yes please! As this would be a very interesting connection indeed, I would love to discuss and hear your info or at least your plausible theory about the way this word took from 500 BC Sanskrit to Europe.

However, saying that the words sound similar to a certain degree, that English does have some Sanskrit loans and English and Sanskrit are both from the Indoeuropean family of languages is rather weak support if you go against a well-documented and plausible theory of Italian etymology.

Claims need supporting info, and extraordinary claims like this one seems in need of quite good supporting info, at least to me. But really, one never knows, and if you have info or a theory, why wait: Please present it.


----------



## Daffodil100

rbrunner said:


> Yes please! As this would be a very interesting connection indeed, I would love to discuss and hear your info or at least your plausible theory about the way this word took from 500 BC Sanskrit to Europe.
> 
> However, saying that the words sound similar to a certain degree, that English does have some Sanskrit loans and English and Sanskrit are both from the Indoeuropean family of languages is rather weak support if you go against a well-documented and plausible theory of Italian etymology.
> 
> Claims need supporting info, and extraordinary claims like this one seems in need of quite good supporting info, at least to me. But really, one never knows, and if you have info or a theory, why wait: Please present it.




That is not my theory but from Wikipeda. No matter it is correct or not. We need someone to produce evidences to vindicate or disprove. 

Wikipedia is not perfect, so is everyone. It is inappropriate to say the opinion is rubbish just because people doubt it. As kids might put forward wrong naive opinions when they curiously probe the world, would the parents simply say that's rubbish? 

If people look up some sources via Google, you will find that Latin and Sankrit are not simply vaguely similar. That's not a coincidence. Many basic words, such as mother, father, are very very close. Some German words were derived from Latin. It is not convincing that draw a conclusion the banca was derived from German, and so it is definitely German creation as not every German word is not the mother of every Indo-Europe language.

Even banca was derived from German, how do people vindicate Germans invented this word originally?

I just quoted the info from Wikipedia. I'd like to hear more from people who more about Indo-Europe language.


----------



## fdb

Daffodil100 said:


> I just quoted the info from Wikipedia.



Bernd has pointed out to me in a private message that this piece of "info" has now been removed from Wikipedia.



Daffodil100 said:


> I'd like to hear more from people who more about Indo-Europe language.



I suggest you listen to what these people are telling you.


----------



## Wolverine9

Here's a complete etymology:

From Middle English _banke_, from Middle French _banque_, from Old Italian _banca _(“counter, moneychanger's bench or table”), from Lombardic *_bank _(“bench, counter”), from Proto-Germanic *_bankiz (“bench, counter”), _from Proto-Indo-European_ *bheg- (“to turn, curve, bend, bow”). _Cognate with Old High German_ banc, banch (“counter, bench”), _Old English_ benc (“bench”)._


----------



## rbrunner

fdb said:


> Bernd has pointed out to me in a private message that this piece of "info" has now been removed from Wikipedia.



Uh, this will get interesting. I am quite pessimistic as to whether it will be possible to keep this removed, even with the explanation given on the Talk page. But one can try.


----------



## Ben Jamin

Daffodil100 said:


> What is your point? Do you refer to the nation or the country?
> 
> I referred to Sankrit the language nowaday Banglanese still use.


How many Sanskrit speakers are there in Bangladesh today?


----------



## berndf

Daffodil100 said:


> I highly doubt that it is called vaguely similar that you claim as German, Italian and Sankrit belong to Indo-European languages. Many English words are derived from Sankrit. Would you say simply they are vaguely similar if you didn't know?  Many German words were derived from Latin, and Latin and Sankrit were ones of the oldest languages.
> 
> Because we don't eactly know the connection, so we need discuss it. I do not agree to call the opinion in Wikipedia is rubbish even it is wrong. Period.


Look, the concept of a "bank" and the word for it emerged during the Italian renaissance, not in some obscure prehistoric past where we are dependent on reconstruction techniques. We have ample primary sources from this time. We actually have a pretty good idea how the finance system worked and we know that money-changers where called _banchieri_ and that a broke _banchiere_ was _banca rotta_. Knowing all this, there is a pretty strong link between _banco_ and _banca_, and we should need a bit more than a vague phonetic similarity and an equally vague semantic link (banks - expenses) to question the traditional explanation.

Having said that, in science you are of course always free to question any explanation without needing a justification; *but then, wearing my moderator hat, I have to point out that this is not the right forum to do so. This forum is supposed to work as a reference supporting the dictionaries and the last thing he want is that wild and hitherto unfounded speculations are mistaken for state of the art results of actual research or as scholarly consensus view, as it sadly happens with wikipedia. Please see the EHL forum rules, especially #15.*


----------



## xari

yakor said:


> (...) But стол and стул are different things. One for sitting (for ass) and the other for hands. (...)


  Yes, and they're both supposed to have originated from a root meaning "seat" (Vasmer gives Gothic cognate "stols"). I was just comparing the Russian words to what happened in Italian with another Germanic root for seat.


----------



## yakor

It is not easy to pick  out the most close word from Russian for "bank". It has many different meanings, so many words are taken to desctibe those.but nevertheless.. Only "val"(вал) seems more appropriate, to me/ "Val" is high, "val" is long it could be a barrier for wind and waves it looks like a mound,like a hill. Or maybe, "bereg" (берег). "bereg" is an elevation, it is a comfortable place to sit, it is long too, so it is like a bench...The similiar subjects in one row remind the bank of the river(bereg).


----------



## Youngfun

In Modern Italian "panca" means the sitting bench, while "banco" means desk.

I think in ancient Italian "banco" was used for the bank, then "banca" became the dominant form. Nowadays there are still banks that call themselves "banco", such as Banco di Napoli, Banco di Sardegna, Banco di Brescia, etc.


----------



## yakor

Hello, youngfan.

Did "panca" come from the same word as the word "banco"? 
Which the very first meaning did the word "banco" have?


----------



## Quiviscumque

Excuse me, dear yakor, but... do you read the answers to your questions?
Please refer to #15 above.


----------



## yakor

Quiviscumque said:


> Excuse me, dear yakor, but... do you read the answers to your questions?
> Please refer to #15 above.


As I said I don't know Italian, so, I can't get the post #15. Also, I don't know from which word the word "panca" came from.


----------



## yakor

Could someone tell me what is written in the post #15?


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> Could someone tell me what is written in the post #15?


Really just confirming what has been said before:_From Frankish *_bank_, a bench running around the room and tightly connected to the wooden wall. As evidenced by the spread of the words _bancalis_, it __is not excluded that the word _bancum_ entered spoken __Latin __already in the late imperial period.

The specialized meaning "credit institution" originated in Italian and spread from there into other languages._​


----------



## yakor

I wonder how else had "a banks of river"  been called before the word "bank" came into English?


----------



## mojobadshah

berndf said:


> Really just confirming what has been said before:_From Frankish *_bank_, a bench running around the room and tightly connected to the wooden wall. As evidenced by the spread of the words _bancalis_, it __is not excluded that the word _bancum_ entered spoken __Latin __already in the late imperial period.
> 
> The specialized meaning "credit institution" originated in Italian and spread from there into other languages._​



This may be so, but I would like to point out that banking firms had been well established by Darius' time.  The word cheque is a Persian loanword.  Which begs the question could the Persians have used a form of the word bank.  As I stated in another thread there used to be a site that listed Sassanian benke "bank."  Did this form really exist, did it develop independently, or could it have been a loan from Sanskrit?  As Treaty has remarked:



Treaty said:


> There is folk etymology in Iran to connect bank with _bonak _(~ store) or _bongāh_ (~ store, firm) which are both from_ bon__eh_ (~ assets, baggage: Pahl. _bunag_)_._ Maybe the Sassanian word is related to this.


----------



## Quiviscumque

Dear mojobadshah, if you mean that the word "check/cheque" comes from _shah_ (following a really winding path), then all authorities I know agree.

But if you mean that a cognate *X of _shah_ did exist in ancient Persia, and that the meaning of *X was similar to "money draft", then please provide some evidence. I will be happy to learn something new; as far as I know, the financial meaning of "cheque" was developed in 18th century England.


----------



## mojobadshah

Quiviscumque said:


> Dear mojobadshah, if you mean that the word "check/cheque" comes from _shah_ (following a really winding path), then all authorities I know agree.
> 
> But if you mean that a cognate *X of _shah_ did exist in ancient Persia, and that the meaning of *X was similar to "money draft", then please provide some evidence. I will be happy to learn something new; as far as I know, the financial meaning of "cheque" was developed in 18th century England.



The greatest banking firm during Darius' time was that of Murashu and Sons in Nippur.  Apparently the banks during this period also used checks.  The possible Middle Persian root of check is listed as _chek_.  I believe wikipedia was the source for this etymology.


----------



## dragonseven

Hi,       the word "banco" is been token in Italy from german "bank" (sec.XIII). With this was indicated then the venetians sitting at the Harbour than exchange receipt for money, without interest. Up ahead they kept a little amount called interest and here burn the "banca" (sec.XIV) when they began to let them hands wander on the money of the merchants.  I hope is comprensible.  Don't you esitate to correct me. Bye


----------



## Quiviscumque

mojobadshah said:


> [...]  The possible Middle Persian root of check is listed as _chek_. [...].



??????

http://www.etymonline.com/search=check

http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/echec


----------



## berndf

*Moderator note: The etymology of cheque/check is not the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss this in detail, please open a new thread.*


----------



## yakor

Which word was first:bank or bench?


----------



## berndf

As we already discussed the development of the meanings, so I suppose you mean which form is the original one. The to form belong to different old Germanic "dialectal" pronunciations of the same word, so they are by definition of the same age.

You could ask which one is closer to the proto-Germanic origin. Both, the <e> (<æ> in Danish, <a> elsewhere) and the "ch" [tʃ] occur only in English. Palatalization [k]>[tʃ] also at the end of the word and not only in the beginning was an Old English peculiarity (compare Low German _Kerk_, West Frisian _tsjerke_ [inital /k/ palatalized but not the final one] and English _church_). [a]>[ɛ] or [æ] seems to be an i-mutation. Proto-Germanic reconstruction is _*__bankiz_. So, the form _bank_ corresponds better to the original Proto-Germanic word.


----------



## yakor

Hello, I'm not sure that I get everything what you tell. 





berndf said:


> The to form belong to different old Germanic "dialectal" pronunciations  of the same word, so they are by definition of the same age.


I  don't understand the beginning of your sentence. You meant "These two  formes, "bank and bench"? If so, they became different due to  different  pronunciation of wich word? "bankiz"?
What does the sign ">" mean?  And what does ([k]>[tʃ])mean? (the changing "k" to "ch" by softening)? 
Changing the word "bankiz"  according to the own dialects, people  changed not only the very word "bankiz", but the sense of it. "bank" and  "bench" became to mean two different things. 
If I'm not right correct me.


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> Changing the word "bankiz"  according to the own dialects, people  changed not only the very word "bankiz", but the sense of it. "bank" and  "bench" became to mean two different things.
> If I'm not right correct me.


Not really. In German, Dutch and Swedish e.g. a _Bank/bank _is a _bench _and a _bank_. Also in English you find _bank _in the original sense, e.g. as part of the word_ sandbank_.

What confused me was your question "Which word was first:bank or bench?". The evolution of the meaning has been described several times in this thread. Maybe you could explain what has remained unclear for you.


----------



## yakor

berndf said:


> What confused by was your question "Which word was first:bank or bench?". The evolution of the meaning has been described several times in this thread. Maybe you could explain where has remained unclear for you.


I meant which word came from the "bankiz" first; bank or bench? Also, it is not clear if they, being different in writing, meant the same thing. Or in some places they mean the same thing, but in others the different: the place for sitting and the slope of the river.


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> I meant which word came from the "bankiz" first; bank or bench?


This question is meaningless because both words have developed out of the same root but in different dialects. So, by definition, both are of the same age.


yakor said:


> Also, it is not clear if they, being different in writing, meant the same thing. Or in some places they mean the same thing, but in others the different: the place for sitting and the slope of the river.


First,_ *bankiz_ was never written. Proto-Germanic is a hypothetical language that was spoken by people that didn't have a writing system. The oldest written evidence are scattered inscriptions as of the 2nd century AD and entire texts as of the 4th century. Until the 9th century, the entire corpus of Germanic texts remains very limited.

*In English, *the form _bench_ with its modern meaning is attested in Old English (Old English spelling was _benc_). The word _bank_ is not attested in in Old English at all. It is attested as of the 13th century only (though 13th century sources are dodgy; for sure since the 14th century). It may have existed in Old English with the meaning _slope _but we can't know. This word is probably loaned from Old Norse or from Danish (a successor language to Old Norse). There are some 13th century attestation of_ bank_ meaning _bench_. This is probably from Old French _banc=bench_.The word _bank _meaning the financial institution exists as of the 15th century and is either taken directly from Italian (were it was created out of the meaning _bench _as has been explained in detail) or arrived in English via French, we don't know. Here are the oldest attestations of this meaning in English.

Other languages have their own histories when which of the meaning in which spelling/pronunciation occurred. In German, e.g. only the form _Bank_ exists, in all three meanings.


----------



## Youngfun

Bank, bench, and ...?


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> Bank, bench, and ...?



And what? I don't understand your question.


----------



## Youngfun

It was an implicit quote of your last sentence. The 3 meanings of Bank in German.


----------



## berndf

Youngfun said:


> It was an implicit quote of your last sentence. The 3 meanings of Bank in German.


Bank as in Bank of England and bank as in sandbank.


----------



## yakor

berndf said:


> This question is meaningless because both words have developed out of the same root but in different dialects. So, by definition, both are of the same age.
> '''''The word _bank_ is not attested in in Old English at all. It is attested as of the 13th century only (though 13th century sources are dodgy; for sure since the 14th century). It may have existed in Old English with the meaning _slope _but we can't know.


But if bench and bank have developed out of the same root in different dialects, that is, they arose in the same time, why "bank" is not attested in Old English? They should have been attested both. In which year was "bench" attested? And why don't you know about the meaning of "bank" in Old English (when the writing was) while you know what the PIE root "bheg" means (while the writing was absent)?


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> But if bench and bank have developed out of the same root in different dialects, that is, they arose in the same time, why "bank" is not attested in Old English?


"Bank" and "banki" are attested in Old Saxon, according to Grimm.


yakor said:


> They should have been attested both.


Why? Many dialects where never used in writing. Primary sources of Old English aren't that numerous.


yakor said:


> In which year was "bench" attested?


Here is an occurrence in Beowulf:
_setton saemeþe side scyldas rondas regnhearde wið þæs recedes weal bugon þa to bence_ (chapter V, lines 325-327)
(_they set down, sea-weary, their wide shields, the rims wondrous-hard against the wall of the hall, and bent down then to a bench_)
_The -e _in _benche _is a dative singular ending.


yakor said:


> And why don't you know about the meaning of "bank" in Old English (when the writing was) while you know what the PIE root "bheg" means (while the writing was absent)?


We don't "know"_ *bheg_ is a reconstruction. That's why it is maked with a * in dictionaries (like here).


----------



## sotos

Wolverine9 said:


> Here's a complete etymology:
> 
> From Middle English _banke_, from Middle French _banque_, from Old Italian _banca _(“counter, moneychanger's bench or table”), from Lombardic *_bank _(“bench, counter”), from Proto-Germanic *_bankiz (“bench, counter”), _*from Proto-Indo-European *bheg- (“to turn, curve, bend, bow”). *Cognate with Old High German_ banc, banch (“counter, bench”), _Old English_ benc (“bench”)._



Do they explain the bold?  Seems  more likely a derivation from a root  that means "steady, solid, rock". From this the homeric Greek πάγος (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...habetic+letter=*p:entry+group=2:entry=pa/gos1  ), the _bench _and the geol._ bank _(of a river). The imaginary stability of a Bank possibly _solidified_ this meaning.


----------



## berndf

sotos said:


> Do they explain the bold?  Seems  more likely a derivation from a root  that means "steady, solid, rock". From this the homeric Greek πάγος (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*p%3Aentry+group%3D2%3Aentry%3Dpa%2Fgos1  ), the _bench _and the geol._ bank _(of a river). The imaginary stability of a Bank possibly _solidified_ this meaning.


No, _bend, bow, arch_ is perfect. On the one hand because it is like an arch on the other hand because you bow down to sit on it, see the quotation above (_bugon þa to benche_).


----------



## yakor

Bank and bench came from "bankiz". What did "bankiz" mean? "steady" or "high position" or "slop"? What?


----------



## yakor

berndf said:


> "Bank" and "banki" are attested in Old Saxon, according to Grimm.


Bank came from "banki"? What did "banki" mean?



berndf said:


> "Why? Many dialects where never used in writing. Primary sources of Old English aren't that numerous.
> Here is an occurrence in Beowulf:


I can't get what you mean. Which sources do you mean?



berndf said:


> We don't "know"_ *bheg_ is a reconstruction. That's why it is maked with a * in dictionaries (like here).


I'm not sure how it is posiblle to reconstruct roots without writing. It seems not true.


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> Bank came from "banki"? What did "banki" mean?


_Bank _and_ benki _(sorry for the typo) are forms found in actual sources, according to Grimm. 


yakor said:


> I can't get what you mean. Which sources do you mean?


Books, inscriptions, sheets.. Just anything written in Old English. There aren't that many of them and most are in West Saxon, one of the many dialect. About many OE dialects we have nothing or almost nothing.


yakor said:


> It seems not true.


Reconstructions are always to be taken with a grain of salt. But these reconstructions are the result of 200 years of research by eminent scientists and each of them is the result of comparing myriads of words from many IE languages and endless discussions. If you think you can know this better shooting from the hip...


----------



## yakor

Quiviscumque said:


> berndf is right. I would like to add that these words are not specifically Italian: they are shared by Romance languages and come from a Late Latin "bancus", in turn from a Germanic "Bank". What is specifically Italian is using them to denote a financial institution.


 So, Germanic "bank"(bench)-->Latin "bancus" (bench) --> Italian "banco"(bench)Yes?
From which word did the English word "bank" in the sense of "a side of the river" come from? From the same German  word "bank" in the sense of "bench"?
It really came from the German "bank" with the sense of "bench"?


----------



## berndf

yakor said:


> From which word did the English word "bank" in the sense of "a side of the river" come from? From the same German  word "bank" in the sense of "bench"?
> It really came from the German "bank" with the sense of "bench"?


_ Bank=slope_,_ sandbank_ is probably the original meaning. See here.

If you look at pictures like this, you can imagine how the meaning bench or table developed out of the meaning sandbank.


----------



## biala

sorry for responding a few months later but I'm "new in the neighborhood". If anybody is still interested in the subject, I'd like to add that taking the name of a money changer from the word "table" is much ancient than medieval days. In the Talmud, a money changer is called "shulkhani" from the word "shulkhan" (a table). the word "shulkhan" still has the same meaning in modern Hebrew, of a table, while "shulkhani" was replaced by "bankai", derived from the european version.

Many words in the Talmud were influenced by Greek. I don't really speak Greek but as far as I know there was also a connection between the two words -trapeza -τράπεζα for bank and trapeziτραπέζιa table


----------



## berndf

τράπεζα originally meant table. The modern word τράπεζι is etymologically a diminutive (small table).

As far as I know, the modern_τράπεζα = bank _is a medieval loan translation. I doubt that the Talmudic expression is derived from Greek. It seem to be genuine parallel development for the same reason.


----------



## biala

Thank you. Maybe it is a coincidence. I don't know about this word, but I do know about a lot of ancient Greek words that influenced Talmudic words (many of them still in use in Hebrew like "arkhiv" that means archive), probably because of the long Greek ruling here in ancient times. (King Antiochus Epiphanes in still  a part of my children's life in school every year in the holiday of chanukka... which of course is not by itself an evidence to anything..)


----------



## berndf

I didn't doubt the Greek influence on Mishnaic Hebrew in general. I just doubt it in this particular case. In the New Testament, the money changers in the temple are called τραπέζας (e.g. Mark 11:15). In this case it might be the other way round that the Greek word is derived from Hebrew or Judeo-Aramaic. But I am not sure.


----------



## biala

Yes, it could be. The Hebrew version of Markus 11:15 is indeed "shulkhanot Hshulkhanim" שולחנות השולחנים- tables of the money changers -  
however it's a late translation. In Aramaic there is also a connection (ptora - table, ptorai - money changer), so difficult to tell what was the origin.


----------



## fdb

Τράπεζα in the meaning “table, dining-table” is very frequent in Greek from Homer onwards and in all the classical authors.  In the sense “money-changer’s counter” it occurs already in Plato. Its etymology is debated, but the Middle Aramaic forms in the Talmud and elsewhere clearly derive from the Greek, not the other way around.


----------



## berndf

Thank you for the correction.


----------

