# von (Adelsprädikat)



## Kwunlam

Do we still have to write "von" for names with an Adelsprädikat in academic writings?

(For people like Jakob von Uexküll, Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, Adolf von Harnack...)

For instance, do we write "Die Theorie von Uexkülls", or simply "Die Theorie Uexkülls", or do we write "Von Uexküll meint...", or simply "Uexküll meint..."  ?

Many thanks !


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## Demiurg

It depends. In Germany, the "von" is a part of the last name while in Austria it's seen as a "nobiliary particle*" *and abolished as part of their revolutionary history.  Sometimes this is rather funny: an Austrian professor at my (German) university systematically omitted the "von" and "zu" even when quoting German researchers which seems very odd to Germans.


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## bearded

Hello
If you do not know beforehand that a name ''Uexküll'' exists, then the formulation _Die Theorie von Uexkülls may_ be ambiguous:  is it ''Uexküll's theory'' or ''Uexkülls 's theory''?


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## Demiurg

bearded man said:


> If you do not know beforehand that a name ''Uexküll'' exists, then the formulation _Die Theorie von Uexkülls may_ be ambiguous:  is it ''Uexküll's theory'' or ''Uexkülls 's theory''?



One would therefore rather use "von Uexkülls Theorie":

_Von Uexkülls Theorie geht davon aus, dass ..._


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## bearded

Demiurg said:


> One would therefore rather use "von Uexkülls Theorie



But what happens if in the phrase there is another 'von'?  E.g. take a sentence like ''From X's theory up to final experiments...'': in this case would it be _Von von Uexkülls Theorie..._(zweimal von nacheinander) or _Von der Theorie von Uexkülls _(again ambiguous)? Or is there a third possibility?


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## Kwunlam

Thanks for all your replies.

I understand the possible ambiguity.

So, is it more common to omit the "von" for such surnames in German academic writings? Or it all depends and is really up to me?

Should I simply write "Uexkülls Theorie" instead of "Von Uexkülls Theorie"? 

Many thanks once again!


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## Demiurg

Kwunlam said:


> So, is it more common to omit the "von" for such surnames in German academic writings?



As I said above: in Germany it's not common.  It could be misinterpreted as a political statement.  This Austrian professor was even suspected being a communist by people unfamiliar with the situation in Austria.


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## manfy

I agree with Demiurg. Since nobility has been abolished in Austria, the use of such titles seems a little odd or sarcastic for me as an Austrian.
Nevertheless, since I've been born long after this has happened, I feel no no strong need for or against such titles and I have no strong feeling either way; Ludwig van Beethoven just sounds more right than Ludwig Beethoven, simply because that's how it was used in those days.

If I had to make the decision to  use the von/van today, I'd probably say yes, I'm inclined to use it if that's the name that person is commonly known by.


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## Kwunlam

Thank you very much once again!

Anybody knows why the WIKI entry of "Jakob von Uexküll" skips the "von" all the way?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Johann_von_Uexküll


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## Hutschi

bearded man said:


> But what happens if in the phrase there is another 'von'?  E.g. take a sentence like ''From X's theory up to final experiments...'': in this case would it be _Von von Uexkülls Theorie..._(zweimal von nacheinander) or _Von der Theorie von Uexkülls _(again ambiguous)? Or is there a third possibility?


Hi, two "von" are allowed here, so in Germany there can be a sentence "Von von Uexkülls Theorie bin ich begeistert."

In spoken language the first "von" is stressed, the second one is unstressed and the name is bound to it.

"Von" is part of the name and does not indicate anymore nobility. Nevertheless some did not accept this and continue nobility registers.

In case of Goethe:
Usually we omit "von" if we use it without first name.
_Goethes bekannteste Gedichte musste ich auswendig lernen._
But in case of full name we do not omit it.
J_ohann Wolfgang von Goethe schrieb viele Gedichte._

You can see this also in Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe


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## fdb

manfy said:


> Ludwig van Beethoven just sounds more right than Ludwig Beethoven


 "van" is Dutch and is not a sign of nobility.


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## fdb

In academic usage it is normal to quote the name of an author in the form in which it appears on the title-page or bye-line of his or her publications. The famous theologian Adolf Harnack (1851 – 1930) was ennobled (erblicher preußischer Adelstand) in 1914, at a time when he had already written most of his many books and articles. Thus I would quote them as the work of “Harnack”, not ”von Harnack”.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> In academic usage it is normal to quote the name of an author in the form in which it appears on the title-page or bye-line of his or her publications. The famous theologian Adolf Harnack (1851 – 1930) was ennobled (erblicher preußischer Adelstand) in 1914, at a time when he had already written most of his many books and articles. Thus I would quote them as the work of “Harnack”, not ”von Harnack”.


Usage varies. Professor Thomson wrote most of his works under that name and we still speak of the_ Joule-Thomson effect_ in thermodynamics. Yet physicists measure temperatures in _Kelvins_ and not in _Thomsons_.


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## berndf

manfy said:


> Since nobility has been abolished in Austria, the use of such titles seems a little odd or sarcastic for me as an Austrian.


I think it is rather the opposite. The notion of nobility and its significance is by and large more distant to the minds of Germans than of Austrians. Viewing _von _or _Graf_ simply as parts of the name and nothing else is normal for most Germans but not for Austrians. _Otto (von) Habsburg_ had Austrian and German citizenship and his official name in Austria was _Otto Habsburg_ and in Germany _Otto von Habsburg_. In non-official contexts Germans very naturally addressed him _Herr von Habsburg_ while Austrians, equally naturally, addressed him _kaiserliche Hohheit_.


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## Kajjo

Kwunlam said:


> Do we still have to write "von" for names with an Adelsprädikat in academic writings?


My opinion and how I use it:

1. Entire names with first name and last name always include "von" if the person is known under this name: _Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe_ -- it is not possible to omit "von" here. It would simply sound wrong to German ears.

2. When using only the last name, the "von" is omitted, both in scientific publications and in everyday speach: _Wie Weizäcker schon feststellte..., Um Goethe zu zitieren..., Goethes Farbenlehre..., Uexküll stand im Austauch mit...
_
Der Wikipedia-Artikel zu Uexküll verwendet das "von" beispielhaft korrekt.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Entire names with first name and last name always include "von" if the person is known under this name


Isn't this qualification tautological? Some people speak of_ Johann Wolfgang Goethe_ and some speak of _Johann Wolfgang von Goethe_. This simply means that he is known under both names.

But I agree with the essence of what you said: If you use former nobility predicates in full names (_Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker_) and in forms of address (_Herr von Weizsäcker_) you would still omit them, if you speak about someone with the bare last name. They are treated like middle names, so to speak; they are part of the full name but not part of the last name.


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## fdb

berndf said:


> They are treated like middle names, so to speak; they are part of the full name but not part of the last name.




I agree with the first half sentence, but I am not sure about the second. My understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that not only the Adelsprädikat “von”, but also the Adelstitel (Herzog, Graf, Freiherr etc.), are legally part of the surname, and are entered as such in the passport of these exalted persons. (I have a vague recollection that one of my Kommilitoninnen in Tübingen once showed me her passport, where “Gräfin von so-und-so” was entered in the surname slot.) One consequence of the re-definition of these onomastic elements as part of the family name is that, whereas in imperial-royal times a Count would pass on his title posthumously to his eldest son only, nowadays all of his children are entitled to call themselves Graf (or Gräfin) von so-und-so from birth onwards.

An aside: Why do we say “Graf Bismarck” but “Otto von Bismarck”?


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## berndf

fdb said:


> but I am not sure about the second. My understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that not only the Adelsprädikat “von”, but also the Adelstitel (Herzog, Graf, Freiherr etc.), are legally part of the surname, and are entered as such in the passport of these exalted persons


It is part of the name ("Namenszusatz") but not part of the surname. In this respect, titles of nobility don't behave any different from other "Namenszusätze". E.g., you say _Beethovens 9. Symphonie_ and not *_van Beethovens 9. Symphonie_.


fdb said:


> I have a vague recollection that one of my Kommilitoninnen in Tübingen once showed me her passport, where “Gräfin von so-und-so” was entered in the surname slot.


As far as I know all "Namenszusätze" belong in the surname field in the passport. But I am not sure.


fdb said:


> An aside: Why do we say “Graf Bismarck” but “Otto von Bismarck”?


I know "Graf Bismarck" only as a the name of a coal mine that was opened in 1868. As far as I know, between 1865 and 1871 his full name was _Graf Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen_. At the time of his death his full name was _Fürst Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen, Herzog von Lauenburg_.


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## Demiurg

berndf said:


> If you use former nobility predicates in full names (_Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker_) and in forms of address (_Herr von Weizsäcker_) you would still omit them, if you speak about someone with the bare last name.



Wernher von Braun comes to mind.  I would always call him "von Braun" and not simply "Braun" and that seems to be quite common.  Possibly because of his ordinary surname.


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## fdb

Demiurg said:


> Wernher von Braun comes to mind.  I would always call him "von Braun" and not simply "Braun" and that seems to be quite common.  Possibly because of his ordinary surname.



The Assyriologist Wolfram von Soden is always refered to as "von Soden" or "v. Soden", never as "Soden". You also say "das von-Sodensche Woerterbuch". Maybe it has to do with inherited vs. acquired nobility, as in no. 12?


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## berndf

And then there is the 1986 assassination of _von Braunmühl _by the RAF. The more you look into it the more exceptions you find.


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## Sepia

Yes, like fdb mentions - legally there are no noble titles in Germany. They are surnames. This is why it is not "Prinz Albert von X" rather than "Albert Prinz von X". Also, if Angelika marrying him does not automatically become "Angelika Prinzessin von X" when she assumes his surname. If she did that she would be "Angelika Prinz von X". She actually has to apply for a name change like everybody else who wants to change their surname.

An easy way of getting along with the von as preposition in your text and the von that is part of the name would be - at least in writing - to abreviate one of them - "die These von v. X". You can also have the problem with other names. I had a boss once by the name of Herr ... in English mr. Herr.


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## fdb

Sepia said:


> If she did that she would be "Angelika Prinz von X".



In England we have "Princess Michael of Kent", but only in England can you be that eccentric.


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## berndf

Sepia said:


> If she did that she would be "Angelika Prinz von X"


Das stimmt einfach nicht. Wie kommst Du darauf? Die Ehefrau von _Prinz Georg Friedrich von Preussen_ heißt natürlich _Prinz*essin* Sophie von Preussen_. So unflexibel ist das deutsche Namensrecht nun wieder auch nicht.


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## berndf

fdb said:


> An aside: Why do we say “Graf Bismarck” but “Otto von Bismarck”?





berndf said:


> I know "Graf Bismarck" only as a the name of a coal mine that was opened in 1868. As far as I know, between 1865 and 1871 his full name was _Graf Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen_. At the time of his death his full name was _Fürst Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen, Herzog von Lauenburg_.


It just occurred to me, you might be thinking of later bearers of the name. His title _Fürst Bismark_ was a primogeniture title. Current bearers of those titles could continue to do use them as part of the name but their children could not. Bismark title of _Graf _was not a primogeniture title, hence this can be used by his descendants as "Namensbestandteil" but not _Fürst_.


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## Kwunlam

Thank you all once again for all your good responses.

I suddenly realized that in names like Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz or Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach, there are also a "von". But we usually do not say "von Leibniz" or "von Feuerbach"....


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## bearded

berndf said:


> _Graf Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen_. At the time of his death his full name was _Fürst Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck-Schönhausen, Herzog von Lauenburg_


What is more common, Graf Otto von Bismarck or Otto Graf von Bismarck?  Concerning the correct sequence of title+name in German I am always uncertain.  Thank you.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> I am always uncertain


So am I.


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## Kajjo

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anrede#Fr.C3.BChere_Adelspr.C3.A4dikate_als_Namensbestandteil



> "Die Adelsvorrechte und damit auch die Adelsprädikate sind in Deutschland seit 1919 abgeschafft. Vormalige Adelsprädikate wurden (mit Ausnahme der Primogeniturtitel) zum Bestandteil des Familiennamens. Das ist daran erkennbar, dass der ehemalige Adelstitel nicht mehr vor, sondern nach dem Vornamen steht (Friedrich Graf von Sachsenhausen statt, wie früher, Graf Friedrich von Sachsenhausen). "



Der Sprachgebrauch ist aber wechselnd und uneindeutig. Korrekt ist demnach aber heutzutage "Otto Graf Lambsdorff" und nicht "Graf Otto Lambsdorff" und wie man an der offiziellen Verwendung zu seiner aktiven Zeiten sieht, wird das auch protokollarisch eingehalten.


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## bearded

Danke für den Hinweis, Kajjo.


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## Sepia

Kwunlam said:


> Thank you all once again for all your good responses.
> 
> I suddenly realized that in names like Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz or Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach, there are also a "von". But we usually do not say "von Leibniz" or "von Feuerbach"....


 
Says who? I would if I were aware that somebody's name were von Something-or-the-other.


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## berndf

Sepia said:


> Says who?


And why were you not aware? Because nobody says "von Leibniz" or "von Feuerbach".

As a general rule, Kajjo gave the best answer:


Kajjo said:


> 1. Entire names with first name and last name always include "von" if the person is known under this name: _Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe_ -- it is not possible to omit "von" here. It would simply sound wrong to German ears.
> 
> 2. When using only the last name, the "von" is omitted, both in scientific publications and in everyday speach: _Wie Weizäcker schon feststellte..., Um Goethe zu zitieren..., Goethes Farbenlehre..., Uexküll stand im Austauch mit..._


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