# Russian/Polish: The pronunciation of L



## janecito

EDIT: Split from here.


			
				Seana said:
			
		

> As far as I have learnt Russian language I know that *Л* is read as an *'L "* only before vowels *я, е, ю, и *or sign *ъ* *.* Maybe some native Russian would explain it to us.


No need for a native.  You have probably learnt Russian from a Polish teacher and in Poland 90% (if not more) of the Poles who speak Russian (and I'm talking about University professors too) are pronouncing Russian velar L (as in Лайка) the way Polish Ł is pronounced, that is [w]. I studied Russian too and when I came to Poland (I'm currently living here) it was sort of a shock for me to hear this. At first I thought that maybe Polish ear simply doesn't distinguish between these two sounds (considering that etymologically they have the same origin) but given this discussion that is probably not the case. Maybe they just don't feel it's worth learning it correctly. I don't know.

So, etymological pairs would be:

Russian Л (followed by я, ю, ё, и, е) - Polish L
Russian Л (followed by а, о, у, ы, э) - Polish Ł

But phonetically they differ. Here's the proof: 

Я очень много с*Л*ыша*Л* о вас. (velar - or hard - L)
Извините, но я к сожа*Л*ению не говорю по-анг*Л*ийски. (palatal - or soft - L)


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## Thomas1

Wow, this one raged on. 

Let the oblivious perpatrator of this dipute say something. 



			
				cyanista said:
			
		

> Thomas and Seana, you were most probably led astray by the analogy with your native language.
> As far as I know, Polish doesn't have the corresponding "hard l". Let's take, for example, "polak ma*ł*y".  The first l is a soft, palatalized [l], and ł actually stands for [w]. If I tried to read Polish I would probably get the ł wrong most of the times pronouncing it as a hard Russian l. You've done just the contrary.


 
By no means did I mean to insist that Лайка should be pronounced with “w” not with “l.” It was rather my hunch which turned out to be inapt here. Thanks for pointing that out and putting me on the right track of Russian pronunciation, and sincere appologies to all these who were led astray by me unconsciously doing so. 

As for the pronunciation, I think Seana and janecito are on to something. I could swear this was the habit I gained in times when I learned Russian (in spite of the fact that we pronunce Лайка with ł [w] and not with [l]). Too bad they didn't teach us the correct pronunciation. 


Thomas


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## cyanista

I found the dispute very interesting. Guess we've all learned something out of it.


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## janecito

Thomas1 said:
			
		

> As for the pronunciation, I think Seana and janecito are on to something. I could swear this was the habit I gained in times when I learned Russian (in spite of the fact that we pronounce Лайка with ł [w] and not with [l]). Too bad they didn't teach us the correct pronunciation.


I don't think we are about to discover anything new.  Anyway, to err is human (and to forgive devine). I was just surprised by Seana's approach to the matter, hence my reaction. 

 My Russian teachers were OK and spoke Russian well, but unfortunately I didn't know how to take advantage of that, so my Russian today is far from perfect (and I'm not talking only about pronunciation).


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## Seana

Hello 
I am very sorry, but in the first sentence you sent I still hear Л as a [w] .
In Polish language it is much, much, much, much closer to [w]. 
We hear the difference between them because we have the same origin cases with l and ł. 
It is not only "bad teacher reason". I think it is typical for Poles that's all.
I am not any specialist in language and literature but 90% or more it isn't probably any strange coincidence.

But to be honest in the very oldfashioned Polish we had the same hard L.
Today this sound of the consonant L ( hard ) exists only in the theatre.
In my opinion this problem is much more psychological then linguistic.
Maybe Poles don't want to be such oldfashoned people with oldfashioned hard consonant "L". 
In Polish this hard L sounds little bit pompously.

Maybe this topic is worth some discussing in the other new thread. 


Best regards Seana


PS I must say that I can pronounce hard L very well.


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## janecito

That is interesting. I know about the “old fashioned” Polish L – as a matter of fact, just yesterday I was listening to a recording of the Polish poet Czesław Miłosz reciting his own poems and he was pronouncing the L the old fashioned way. It does sound a little bit awkward hearing it in modern Polish, but I guess it's just about as awkward as hearing a [w] sound in modern Russian. 

 The subject is definitely interesting but you're probably right - a bit off the topic of this thread.


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## Seana

Hi again.

Many thanks for your reply.

Yeah - relief, we have reached a kind of agreement. The hard L could be linguistic or better say sociological link between Polish and Russian people. 
We both don't want pronounce oldfashioned hard L in the computer world any more.  

I wouldn't like to bore you at all, but could you try to hear the first sentence once again and pay attention especially to the second letter 'Л' in the word с*Л*ыша*Л.* What do you hear? But - frankly.

*Greetings*


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## Seana

Hi Jana 

Many thanks that your have transferred this theme here, because I want to ask what it is the real problem with the pronounciation of that hard Russian 'Л' by Poles. I repeat it once again it isn't only difficulty as an "onomatopoeic problem". I can do it perfectly - in my opinion of course  but I don't do it. 
So, I invite you for a discussion.


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## Jana337

Seana said:
			
		

> Hi Jana
> 
> Many thanks that your have transferred this theme here, because I want to ask what it is the real problem with the pronounciation of that hard Russian 'Л' by Poles. I repeat it once again it isn't only difficulty as an "onomatopoeic problem". I can do it perfectly - in my opinion of course  but I don't do it.
> So, I invite you for a discussion.


 If you want, you can record yourself (Start - All programs - Accessories - Entertainment - Sound recording) and attach the file here so that we (I mean Russian natives ) can familiarize themselves with your idea of perfection. 

Jana


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## Seana

Hi

Thank you very much. You are very nice but I think my perfection might be underrated by you (I mean native Russian) and I could feel aschamed a lot then moreover all illusion would be vanished.  
But maybe in future time I will dare to do it, taken full advantage of this possibility.

Regards Seana


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## janecito

Seana said:
			
		

> Hi again.
> I wouldn't like to bore you at all, but could you try to hear the first sentence once again and pay attention especially to the second letter 'Л' in the word сЛышаЛ. What do you hear? But - frankly.



 I don't really feel competent for judging the attitude of speakers of different nationalities toward the pronunciation of different sounds (from the sociological or psychological point of you that is). But as to the second L in the word слышал, I must say that although not both L's are phonetically identical (due to the fact that the second one is placed at the end of the word probably) I don't perceive the 2nd L as a [w] sound. At least not as the sound the letter Ł representes, let's say in Polish word s*ł*ucha*ł*.

 But I agree (with your observation) that the same letter is not pronounced the same in the middle of the word as it is at its end. In Slovene, for instance, L is usually pronounced as [l], while at the end of the word (specially in past participles) we pronounce it as : s*l*iša*l* > [slíshau] (in Russian the difference is not that radical, though).


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## cyanista

Seana said:
			
		

> Yeah - relief, we have reached a kind of agreement. The hard L could be linguistic or better say sociological link between Polish and Russian people.
> We both don't want pronounce oldfashioned hard L in the computer world any more."


I beg your pardon?  Sorry if I misunderstood, but I'd like to point out  that Russian L has had no problems whatsoever adjusting itself to the computer world  and there are no signs that it could soon be replaced by some other sound. Or am I explaining the evident?..



			
				Seana said:
			
		

> I wouldn't like to bore you at all, but could you try to hear the first sentence once again and pay attention especially to the second letter 'Л' in the word с*Л*ыша*Л.* What do you hear? But - frankly.


Honestly and sincerely: I've repeated it several times and the second "l" is still a clear "l", as in English "crystal".


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## Seana

Hi,
I apologize, but it was only such a joke. I don't want to offent anybody, belive me. Could you take it as only a theoretical deliberation. 
I meant that both - spelling and pronounciation are changing through the years. I can see this phenomenon in Poland. When I was a child I heart this L very often around but in the course of time it was vanishing and now this sound is only a mention in Polish language.
Perhaps in Russia it will never come.
Polish students studied a drama in art schools are tought this kind of pronounciation.
In my opinion (but don't think only about this L, please ) many beautiful things is gone in the past but as much beautiful things come and take theirs places. It is the rule of development. 
Best regards


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## übermönch

I cannot pronounce the hard russian L, but instead do the W  (unless I make pauses or use the english one which sounds bizarre) & most Russians do remark that. Could anyone give tips? Perhaps someone who was to a drama course in poland?


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## cyanista

übermönch said:
			
		

> I cannot pronounce the hard russian L, but instead do the W  (unless I make pauses or use the english one which sounds bizarre) & most Russians do remark that. Could anyone give tips? Perhaps someone who was to a drama course in poland?


That's strange because the English dark l and the Russian hard l are almost the same. The only difference is that the English sound is alveolar and the Russian one is dental. In practice it means that the former is articulated with either the tip or the blade of the tongue against the alveolar ridge and the latter is made when the flat of the tongue just above the tongue tip touches the back of the upper teeth. Well, now that I'm trying it for about 10 minutes they do sound differently.


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## übermönch

Thanx, cyanista. For some reason i now get something between an Gh and R but not the Russian L. But it is closer than before. could it be that the tongue has to be bend in a special way while performing the stunt except that the flat part shortly before the tip has to touch the back of the teeth?


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## cyanista

übermönch said:
			
		

> Thanx, cyanista. For some reason i now get something between an Gh and R but not the Russian L. But it is closer than before. could it be that the tongue has to be bend in a special way while performing the stunt except that the flat part shortly before the tip has to touch the back of the teeth?


LOL 
Well, it's hard to explain such things and even harder to follow the explanations.
You're right, the front part of the tongue is raised and bent so as to touch both the teeth and the alveolar ridge.

Viel Spaß beim Üben!


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## Nadzieja

GOsh! I've rever herad any TWO pronounciations of L in POlish..


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## Thomas1

Nadzieja said:
			
		

> GOsh! I've rever herad any TWO pronounciations of L in POlish..


This reminds me of something.
Did you see "Sami swoi" movie?
The actor Wacław Kowalski (Kaźmirz ), albeit not a Polish born (he came from Russia) pronunced them so that you were able to see the difference. Now, I think I can understand it, I don't know if I would be able to pronunce it, though. Must pluck up some courage to submit my record of it some day, so that the natives could evaluate it.


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## Marijka

Nadzieja said:
			
		

> GOsh! I've rever herad any TWO pronounciations of L in POlish..



Hard 'L' is characteristic for people who were born before World War II (especially in Eastern Poland, or territories which were Polad then - "Kresy") You can hear it if you watch for example "Kabaret Starszych Panów". Some people call it kresowe "l" or lwowskie "l" ( Lvovian "l")


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## Anatoli

I knew just one native Russian person (my History teacher from school) who pronounced the Russian л as "w" in the Polish way. Kids called him "квас" (kvas - a popular soft drink in Russia) because of the way he pronounced the word класс (class). No offence to Polish people!

I am not sure what people are still discussing about. Russian Л is similar to English L but not 100%, the Russian one is dental. And it's pronounced the same same way even at final position: what's the problem with the word "с*л*ыша*л*"? I think both л's are identical.

The palatalised version ЛЬ is not exactly like Polish L.

Russian "для" is not exactly like Polish "dla" but like "dlia" (if using Polish methods).


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## Finner

I ve been to Warsaw once and after that visit i tried to learn the alphabet and find out the similarities between Czech and Polish but i coulndt recognise some letters.
Could anyone explain whats the sound of the letter Ł ? Is it similar to Serbo-Croatian Lj or the russian Ль ?
* Thanks in advance
*


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## Ptak

Ł is very similar to english w.


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