# déformation professionnelle



## flobel

Bonjour.

Connaissez-vous une traduction pour l'expression "déformation professionnelle" ? 

Cela signifie que l'activité professionnelle d'une personne a une influence sur la manière dont elle parle.

Merci.

Florian

The train manager used the 24 hours format to tell the time. It was maybe a railroad "*déformation professionnelle*".

If the sentence is wrong, you can correct it 

Florian


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## se16teddy

adoption of a corporate / professional image / style?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
"professional deformation" ??
"professional bias" ??


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## watchman11

I'd need the translation too.

More info on the context. It's employed to decribe a pattern (peculiar to their job, sometimes quirky) that someone would repeat in their private life.


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## Gil

This might help get round the problem:


> déformation professionnelle = habits acquired through doing the type of work one does
> 
> elle est professeur, c'est donc par déformation professionnelle qu'elle répète tout tout le temps
> it must be because she's a teacher that she repeats things all the time
> 
> il fait de la déformation professionnelle
> he's like that because of his job


Copyright © 2000, Harrap's Multimedia, © 2000, Havas Interactive


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## RuK

Mon mari voit des virus partout; c'est une déformation professionnelle -- il est médecin. 

Je suis journaliste, j'ai une déformation professionnelle, je pose tout le temps des questions.

It might be translated by "a professional tic", though that sounds a bit clumsy. 
(Or a work-induced tic? To me, sounds even more clunky).


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## Kelly B

Hello and welcome, watchman11,
I liked French4Beth's _hazard of the profession_; _professional quir_k also comes to mind.

It would still help to see a complete sentence, to confirm that it is being used properly.

Edit based on RuK's post: it comes (or goes?) with the job.


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## Gil

RuK said:


> It might be translated by "a professional tic", though that sounds a bit clumsy. (Or a work-induced tic? To me, sounds even more clunky).


While checking "tic" (It's O.K.), I found "mannerism".
Maybe _professional or work-induced or trade-induced mannerism_.


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## timpeac

By the sound of it there is no one translation into English that will work for all French examples so to be sure a full original sentence is vital.

For Ruk's examples I'd say "that's journalists for you" or "that's doctors for you".

I know I ask questions all the time, but that's journalists for you!


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## Nil-the-Frogg

Hi, I spontaneously wrote "professional twist" in my last message. After a second thought I decided to check WR for this... Would that carry the meaning?


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## broglet

"Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)

There is no real equivalent in English, but Kelly B's "hazard of the profession" and "professional quirk" could be effectively used.

I think Gordo's suggestion to use "déformation professionelle" without translation would leave most non-francophones mystified (and quite a few non-native francophones too!)

(Nil-the-Frogg's "professional twist" sounds to me like an excellently performed 60s dance, or some lemon inserted into a cocktail by a good barman  )


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## polaire

Kelly B said:


> I liked French4Beth's *hazard of the profession*; _professional quir_k also comes to mind.


So far, French4Beth's seems the most fitting.

As I think she pointed out above, the expression is used after someone makes a statement that betrays his or her professional training.


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## Gil

professional warping or perversion?


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## timpeac

Gil said:


> professional warping or perversion?


Above they say that this is not necessarily pejorative - don't you agree with that (since "warping" and "perversion" are certainly pejorative)?


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## polaire

timpeac said:


> Above they say that this is not necessarily pejorative - don't you agree with that (since "warping" and "perversion" are certainly pejorative)?


Right, timpeac, it's not negative.  It's more a person has been so shaped by his/her work that s/he automatically employs those skills even outside of work.

Off-duty detective, noting another person's sandy shoes:
"Have you been out walking on the beach?  Sorry -- [It's an] occupational hazard."


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## timpeac

I know I shouldn't say this, then, but in this case I stand by my own suggestion of "that's xxxxs for you" then.

"He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
"That's doctors for you!".


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## Kelly B

This is sliding further from the professional notion, but
it goes with the territory.


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## polaire

timpeac said:


> "that's xxxxs for you then".
> "He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
> "That's doctors for you!".



Personally, I'd understand your example if I modified it to:
"He can't stand people smoking at the next table."
"That's what practicing medicine for 20 years does to you!".


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## timpeac

Must be BE then - very common here.


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## Icetrance

This is similar to an "occupational habit." (negative aspect is implied)

But, one can say "professional deformation." It is indeed said in English.


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## geve

I like Kelly's_ "It comes with the job"._ Wouldn't it make a good AE equivalent to BE _"That's doctors for you"_?



broglet said:


> "Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)


Your interpretation is interesting, but I must admit I had never spotted the potential pun in it. I read it as "déformation": your vision of things is altered - "professionnelle": by your job.


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## timpeac

Icetrance said:


> But, one can say "professional deformation." It is indeed said in English.


I'm really interested by this. I see that it was claimed above that this is said in English, and a googling certainly supports that while this is not a common phrase it does indeed exist in English, on occasion, without glossing. 

Would the French phrase be generally understood by Francophones? If so, despite the occasional existence of English "professional deformation", I would say that this cannot be an adequate translation of the French since it is sufficiently obscure as to be impenetrable to most English speakers (or, fellow Anglophones, is this just a gap in my vocab?)


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## polaire

"Professional_* deformation*_" sounds horrible in American English.  It conjures up an image of a deformed or disfigured person.

We don't use "formation" in American English, so "deformation" wouldn't be appreciated as a comment on that word.


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## timpeac

Same in BE - at least to my ears - but from what Geve says above, she doesn't feel that "déformation" in French is a, well, deformation of "formation" so the fact we say "training" rather than "formation" in English (BE as well as AE from what you say) doesn't really reflect on whether we could, or should, talk of "deformation". (Just to make clear the nuances of "deform" in English (at least to my understanding) to those who may not be sure - it means "to bend out of shape", quite a physical and negative meaning - animals (or, cruelly, people) who are born different might be described by some people as "deformed").


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## Icetrance

timpeac said:


> I'm really interested by this. I see that it was claimed above that this is said in English, and a googling certainly supports that while this is not a common phrase it does indeed exist in English, on occasion, without glossing. Would the French phrase be generally understood by Francophones? If so, despite the occasional existence of English "professional deformation", I would say that this cannot be an adequate translation of the French since it is sufficiently obscure as to be impenetrable to most English speakers (or, fellow Anglophones, is this just a gap in my vocab?)


 
I agree. I wouldn't use "professional deformation" as a translation either.
I would say "occupational habit."

These are the (negative) traits acquired by working in a certain profession.


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## Nil-the-Frogg

timpeac said:


> animals (or, cruelly, people) who are born different might be described by some people as "deformed").


The French equivalent would be "difforme", then... "Un être difforme", "un animal difforme"...

I suppose that's such a meaning that made me think about "twist".


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## A day in Eireann

Or you have the dictionary suggestions of :

professional bias  
vocational bias 
vocational idiosyncrasy 
professional idiosyncrasy 
professional kink 
job conditionning


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## Icetrance

A day in Eireann said:


> Or you have the dictionary suggestions of :
> professional bias
> vocational bias
> vocational idiosyncrasy
> professional idiosyncrasy
> professional kink
> job conditionning​


 
Thanks for these translations

Honestly, I don't care for any of them.

I'm sticking with "occupational habit."

As I always learned during my translation studies: Don't get stuck in "interlanguage."


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## Nicomon

polaire said:


> None of these sound natural in English to me, sorry.


 
I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage". 

"Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible.  

I associate "hazard" to _risque, _so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors for you" or "it comes with the job".


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## Gil

Nicomon said:


> I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".


Salut! D'accord!


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## A day in Eireann

Nicomon said:


> I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".


I prefer to go for "that's .... for you " too when the style is colloquial enough, or also for something such as " I'm a detective , what else can you expect ? / He's a doctor so ...   "
But as this posting went on and on, I thought I'd add the dictionary listings, just for teh sake of it.
I do use and have often seen professional bias/habit/
and an expression I can not recall


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## Icetrance

Nicomon said:


> I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".
> 
> "Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible.
> 
> I associate "hazard" to _risque, _so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors to you" or "it comes with the job".


I don't think this is about "bias" either (although not "interlanguage", I admit. I skipped over that one. LOL).

déformation professionelle: 
_to become increasingly moulded into a certain profession's mindset over time, separating the individual from society to some degree (negative connotation)._

I might say: *profession-shaped mindset/mentality*


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## broglet

Nicomon said:


> I agree that most don't sound natural. However "professional bias", which comes naturally to me, is certainly not unusual. I definitely wouldn't count this one as "interlanguage".
> 
> "Professional deformation" on the other hand is indeed horrible.
> 
> I associate "hazard" to _risque, _so any expression using "hazard" doesn't work for me. But I like "that's doctors for you" or "it comes with the job".


I think there is general agreement that "professional deformation" is horrible, wrong and just won't do. "Professional bias", on the other hand, is good English but it has an entirely different meaning from "déformation professionnelle", so that won't do either. 
Icetrance's "profession-shaped mindset/mentality" might work in AE, but it would sound odd in EE, and it too has the wrong meaning. I have only ever heard "déformation professionelle" used to describe a behaviour, not a mindset.
In an attempt to preserve some of the punning aspect of the original French, one could try something like: "The man's a teacher. He always talks in a stentorian voice; it's a professional disability".
But, without the pun, I like Icetrance's "occupational habit" ... and also timpeac's "that's doctors for you".


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## Nicomon

broglet said:


> "Professional bias", on the other hand, is good English but it has an entirely different meaning from "déformation professionnelle", so that won't do either.


 
I don't agree there. It all depends on your personal interpretation of "déformation" or "bias". 

My point was mainly that "professional bias" is not "non natural". In my opinion « _déformation professionnelle_ » can be both "professional *bias*" or "professional/occupational *habit*" and I like your "professional disability" for a pun. 

"The man's a teacher. He always talks in a stentorian voice; it's a professional disability". This man's talking in stentorian voice is an "occupational habit"... "that's teachers for you"/ "it comes with the job".

But also... (as Geve rightly said - post #35)... his vision of things can be altered by his profession. He can't have an impartial opinion. *Bias* as in "_a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents impartial consideration of a question; prejudice_." (Webster's). 

This is how the GDT defines « déformation professionnelle », with suggested translation "professional bias".



> Définition :
> *État d'esprit* qui, sous l'influence du milieu ou de la discipline de travail, incite l'homme à consacrer exclusivement son attention aux choses de son métier ou de sa profession et aux changements qui en découlent, d'où il résulte que *la réalité est altérée*, parce que des faits essentiels échappent à son attention.
> *État d'esprit* qui incite une personne à prendre des attitudes propres à son activité professionnelle ou de travail, même en des domaines qui ne s'y rapportent pas.


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## Icetrance

_*L'État d'esprit* qui incite une personne à prendre des attitudes propres à son activité professionnelle ou de travail, même en des domaines qui ne s'y rapportent pas._

D'où donc ma traduction "profession-based mindset/mentality" 

You take your job everywhere with you (habits, mindset)

I proposed two translations:

occupational habit
profession-based mindset/mentality

I'm a little torn between them, but I'd opt for the latter at this point in time. Je pense bien que "mindset" sous-entendrait


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## Nicomon

You're a little torn, because « déformation professionnelle » can be interpreted both ways, as per this less convoluted definition (TLFI) 



> _Déformation professionnelle. _Fait de transposer dans la vie courante des *habitudes *ou des *manières de penser* acquises dans l'exercice d'une profession


 
imho "*profession-based mindset/mentality*" (what happened of "shaped"?) is a defining phrase, something like "_*état d'esprit induit par/issu de la profession*_". 

What we need to translate here is "*déformation*" 
Incidentally... Robert & Collins suggest "*job conditioning*" 

So between 
- professional bias (as in "inclination towards")
- professional/occupational habit
- job conditioning
- that's xyz for you / it comes with the job

we should have enough to work with... and adapt to context.


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## Icetrance

Désolé. Je voulais dire "profession-shaped mindset/mentality" LOL.

Traduire comme ça, c'est me donner mal au cerveau, mais de façon plaisante.

J'accepterais en fait "job conditioning" comme une traduction décente.

J'ai enfin atteint un compromis, Nicomon!


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## worldwanderer

I think that the literal translation 'professional deformation' is now accepted in English. I tend to hear it in more formal contexts, but I still hear it used like that from time to time. People seem to know what it means.. but timpeac's suggestion of 'that's doctors for you' etc.. would convey the same message, in a more colloquial tone, and you definitely hear that more often. If you google 'professional deformation' you may get some interesting results, studies etc..


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## Icetrance

I know it is used in contemporary English. I know I've heard it used in a sociological context.  So, it is indeed a correct translation, but I'm not sure if I'd use it outside of academia, or for the general public for that matter. But, it's not at all wrong.

Au choix, mon ami(e):

professional deformation
job conditioning
profession-shaped mindset/mentality


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## Gil

Icetrance said:


> Au choix, mon ami(e):
> 
> professional deformation
> job conditioning
> profession-shaped mindset/mentality



Je choisis "job conditionning"


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## Nicomon

Gil said:


> Je choisis "job conditionning"


 
Salut Gil Je suis d'accord! R&C est encore àma une source fiable.

Mais entre l'horrible "professional deformation" (664 google hits) et "professional bias" (22,400) je choisis sans hésiter "bias". Si je l'entend, je pense automatiquement... "déformation professionnelle". Posons la question dans l'autre sens, pour voir. 

Edit: Je viens de remarquer par ailleurs que "job conditioning" (1 ou 2 n??) est la dernière suggestion de la liste que Eireann a donnée au #42.


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## broglet

Nicomon said:


> I don't agree there. It all depends on your personal interpretation of "déformation" or "bias".
> 
> My point was mainly that "professional bias" is not "non natural". In my opinion « _déformation professionnelle_ » can be both "professional *bias*" or "professional/occupational *habit*" and I like your "professional disability" for a pun.
> 
> "The man's a teacher. He always talks in a stentorian voice; it's a professional disability". This man's talking in stentorian voice is an "occupational habit"... "that's teachers for you"/ "it comes with the job".
> 
> But also... (as Geve rightly said - post #35)... his vision of things can be altered by his profession. He can't have an impartial opinion. *Bias* as in "_a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents impartial consideration of a question; prejudice_." (Webster's).
> 
> This is how the GDT defines « déformation professionnelle », with suggested translation "professional bias".
> 
> Définition :
> *État d'esprit* qui, sous l'influence du milieu ou de la discipline de travail, incite l'homme à consacrer exclusivement son attention aux choses de son métier ou de sa profession et aux changements qui en découlent, d'où il résulte que *la réalité est altérée*, parce que des faits essentiels échappent à son attention.
> *État d'esprit* qui incite une personne à prendre des attitudes propres à son activité professionnelle ou de travail, même en des domaines qui ne s'y rapportent pas.


Recourse to dictionaries is interesting, but if you ask two different dictionaries the same question you get a different answer. Oxford Hachette translates it as "a habit that comes from the job", which is how I hear it used in France. I am sure French is used differently in Canada, as indeed is English. In England nobody, perhaps with the exception of a behavioural psychologist, would be likely to use the phrase "job conditioning" and most English people would use the expression "professional bias" to mean "professional predilection" ("He is a linguist with a professional bias towards Spanish"); I have never heard anyone in England using the phrase to mean anything else.


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## Icetrance

I agree somewhat with you. "Job conditioning" wouldn't be my first pick. I think it's acceptable overall, but, in certain contexts, it does indeed sound a little funny.

I'd go for "occupational habit", which was my original translation.

In second place > profession-shaped mindset/mentality


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## Nicomon

Speaking of context... this was the original sentence


> The train manager used the 24 hours format to tell the time. It was maybe a railroad "*déformation professionnelle*".


 
I think "job conditioning" works perfectly fine here. And in most cases (though may be not in this specific context) I would use "professional bias" to translate "*déformation *professionnelle". I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Those are the hazards of the profession. I just don't like to rewrite dictionaries.


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## broglet

I've thought of a new translation which would now be my preferred choice for most contexts: "occupational disability"

It preserves the humorous play on words of "déformation professionelle", and it is a widely used phrase that would  be readily understood by a UK readership.  I have no idea how well it would work in all the far-flung corners of the anglophone diaspora.


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## Teafrog

This is a very interesting thread. The expression (and lack of adequate English translation) had me puzzled and frustrated for many years!

Alas, I have also heard "professional deformation"   in England, but I think it is used (in despair?) because we don’t have such a perfectly well suited expression in English (hence this thread). So let’s get one on the statute book as well as the WR dict.

My vote:
"Occupational disability", I really like that one from Broglet
“Job conditioning”
"Professional quirk
"Professional bias"
"That's ‘xyz’ for you!", at a pinch…


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## timpeac

broglet said:


> I've thought of a new translation which would now be my preferred choice for most contexts: "occupational disability"
> 
> It preserves the humorous play on words of "déformation professionelle", and it is a widely used phrase that would be readily understood by a UK readership. I have no idea how well it would work in all the far-flung corners of the anglophone diaspora.


I don't like it for two reaons -

- I haven't got time to check back through the whole thread, but if memory serves just one anglophone suggested that this was a word-play, no native French speaker supported this, and one native speaker said she thought it wasn't.
- Several native speakers have said that the phrase does not necessarily have negative overtones, whereas "disability" in English certainly does.


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## broglet

Memory certainly _isn't_ serving you too well.

It was I who suggested this was a play on words. Having been involved in "formation professionelle" for years, it seemed like a pun to me, but of course I might be wrong and not everyone will see it this way. Just because no native speaker "supported" me doesn't mean that no native speaker would agree with me. I didn't ask people to vote!

Nobody said "she thought it wasn't" a pun - although geve said s/he "had never spotted the potential pun in it". And not a single native speaker said "the phrase does not necessarily have negative overtones" (although flobel said, quite rightly, that it is not pejorative). It is not at all pejorative, the way I have heard it, but is usually used in a rather amiable way.

Also "disability" in my suggestion "occupational disability" has only the mildest of "negative overtones", and in this context I think it would be clear that the intention was humorous rather than pejorative.

I am sorry you don't like my suggestion, but it's understandable that not everyone will. It would, however, have been better just to have given your point of view without misrepresenting what other people have said in this thread.


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## Agnès E.

It isn't a pun. 
This just mean : l'esprit est déformé par l'aspect professionnel de la vie et, donc, applique à la vie quotidienne un comportement professionnel.

Comme un vendeur de matériel de jardinage qui ne pourrait s'empêcher de faire l'article d'une tondeuse qu'il vend à son ami qui le reçoit pour un barbecue le dimanche. Il voit le gazon mal tondu et, par déformation professionnelle, commence son argumentaire commercial... ce qui n'est pas nécessairement apprécié de son ami.

Le terme est le plus souvent péjoratif, bien sûr, puisque le terme _déformation_ a une connotation négative. On peut l'utiliser en riant, mais quand même...


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## Nicomon

Teafrog said:


> My vote:
> "Occupational disability", I really like that one from Broglet
> “Job conditioning”
> "Professional quirk
> "Professional bias"
> "That's ‘xyz’ for you!", *at a pinch*…


 
I agree that there is no intended pun. Déformation, in this expression means "distortion of reality", as Geve explained (with link to TLFI) in #35, and Agnes just reconfirmed.  
It's now too late to edit my post... but go figure why I said I liked "professionnal disability" as a pun in #50, quoted in #58.  It might work as a joke, between friends, but it is not appropriate to translate "déformation professionnelle". 

Occupational disability is even less appropriate. At least on this side of the ocean, it would be understood as incapacity to work, because of a (physical or mental) disability. e.g. due to an accident or depression.


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## clairet

Gordo said:


> I've heard 'deformation professionnelle' used by non french speaking anglophones.... like we use 'deja vu' or 'schadenfreude' sometimes English just doesn't have the word for it!


 
I think you must move in some unusual circles. Déjà vu and schadenfreude are quite common but I've never heard this phrase used in England. I liked "professional quirk". Quirk expresses nicely the mild oddness of the practice and that the person can't help doing it.


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## Nil-the-Frogg

broglet said:


> Having been involved in "formation professionelle" for years, it seemed like a pun to me, but of course I might be wrong and not everyone will see it this way.


I think it may very well be a pun among people working in "formation", but in general, it isn't. The main point in the translation, though, is not to define how the natives understand a pun or not in the expression, but rather to guess how the English speakers will interpret the translation(s) we suggest.


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## broglet

Nicomon said:


> I agree that there is no intended pun. Déformation, in this expression means "distortion of reality", as Geve explained (with link to TLFI) in #35, and Agnes just reconfirmed.
> It's now too late to edit my post... but go figure why I said I liked "professionnal disability" as a pun in #50, quoted in #58.  It might work as a joke, between friends, but it is not appropriate to translate "déformation professionnelle".
> 
> Occupational disability is even less appropriate. At least on this side of the ocean, it would be understood as incapacity to work, because of a (physical or mental) disability. e.g. due to an accident or depression.


 
My French teacher once said, more years ago than I care to remember, that the British have an unusual sense of humour and a special penchant for playing with language, which is not generally shared or even understood by the French. I suspect that this is what is going on (or, rather, not going on) here. To me it always seemed that "déformation professionelle" was a pun on "formation professionelle" but it now seems it was a figment of my British imagination! And, as Nil-the-Frogg hints at, the fact I interpreted the phrase in this way might have been a result of an occupational disability of my own (shared with other people who work in 'formation')!

Another peculiar thing we do in the UK is use words or phrases jokingly without intending that they should be understood literally.

So, if someone in the UK said "That teacher always talks in such a loud voice - I think it must be an occupational disability", people would think he was intending to be humorous - they would NOT think he was suggesting that the teacher had an "incapacity to work, because of a (physical or mental) disability. e.g. due to an accident or depression"


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## Nil-the-Frogg

broglet said:


> So, if someone in the UK said "That teacher always talks in such a loud voice - I think it must be an occupational disability", people would think he was intending to be humorous - they would NOT think he was suggesting that the teacher had an "incapacity to work, because of a (physical or mental) disability. e.g. due to an accident or depression"


Don't worry, French would have understood too.  Or at least, I would have.


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## Nicomon

Nil-the-Frogg said:


> Don't worry, French would have understood too.  Or at least, I would have.


 


> So, if someone in the UK said "That teacher always talks in such a loud voice - I think it must be an occupational disability", people would think he was intending to be humorous - they would NOT think he was suggesting that the teacher had an "incapacity to work, because of a (physical or mental) disability. e.g. due to an accident or depression"


 
I seriously wanted off this thread, but since I was again quoted, I feel an obligation to reply. In this very unlikely context for a translator, I would have understood it your way as well. This is what I meant by "it might work as a joke" (#66 ). I'm French Canadian... but not daft. My point is that "occupational disability" shouldn't be suggested/written in a dictionary as a usual translation for "déformation professionnelle". Because it just isn't what it means. If you click on a few of the 96,000 + google hits (not all of them Canadian)... you'll see. For instance this one and this other one

As always... context is everything.


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## broglet

I assure you, I have always held French Canadians in the highest esteem - indeed I went ballooning in Tuscany with four of your compatriots last week and they were as far from daft as it is humanly possible to travel. 

Furthermore, I agree that 'occupational disability' cannot be regarded as a 'usual translation', but  a translation only for use in situations where there was a punnish intent.


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## Nicomon

broglet said:


> Furthermore, I agree that 'occupational disability' cannot be regarded as a 'usual translation', but a translation only for use in situations where there was a punnish intent.


 
  Thanks broglet. Now I vote that we all move to another intersting discussion.  I know I will.


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## timpeac

broglet said:


> Memory certainly _isn't_ serving you too well.


I seem to have been correct in everything I said, but more of that below.


broglet said:


> It was I who suggested this was a play on words. Having been involved in "formation professionelle" for years, it seemed like a pun to me, but of course I might be wrong and not everyone will see it this way. Just because no native speaker "supported" me doesn't mean that no native speaker would agree with me. I didn't ask people to vote!


So I was correct in saying that one Anglophone said it was a pun and correct in that no Francophone concurred.


broglet said:


> Nobody said "she thought it wasn't" a pun - although geve said s/he "had never spotted the potential pun in it".


I'm fairly sure that that was just a polite way of saying you're wrong - but fair enough, I won't presume to speak for others. 





broglet said:


> And not a single native speaker said "the phrase does not necessarily have negative overtones" (although flobel said, quite rightly, that it is not pejorative). It is not at all pejorative, the way I have heard it, but is usually used in a rather amiable way.


So according to you "it is not pejorative" does not imply "does not necessarily have negative overtones". Well our interpretation of the English language is obviously significantly different. Feel free to substitute "is not pejorative" for "does not necessarily have negative overtones" in my quote above.


broglet said:


> Also "disability" in my suggestion "occupational disability" has only the mildest of "negative overtones", and in this context I think it would be clear that the intention was humorous rather than pejorative.


Is the original French humorous? I see no evidence that it is, so humorous or necessarily pejorative it seems the wrong translation to me.


broglet said:


> I am sorry you don't like my suggestion,


And I'm sorry you took such offence at my honestly stated dislike of your translation - there really was no intention other than to give my point of view based on what I genuinely feel is the evidence given by native speakers (and, of course, my non-native impressions from hearing the usage) in this thread up to the point I made the comment.





broglet said:


> but it's understandable that not everyone will. It would, however, have been better just to have given your point of view without misrepresenting what other people have said in this thread.


I haven't, and am glad to see that the posts following yours have supported my interpretations of what's been said to date.


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## geve

timpeac said:


> I'm fairly sure that that was just a polite way of saying you're wrong - but fair enough, I won't presume to speak for others.


I might be overly polite sometimes (désolée, déformation professionnelle de ma part  - I'm a consultant ). I thought that the TLFi link I had posted to the word "déformation" would make it clear that there was no pun intended (apart from all context I mean). 
This doesn't mean that the French can't have a weird sense of humour _too _, just that you should not look for a humorous tone when translating "déformation professionnelle".


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Pourtant, j'entends et utilise "c'est de la déformation professionnelle !" le plus souvent sous forme d'auto-dérision.
Une personne fait ou dit quelque chose en relation avec sa profession alors que la situation ou le sujet ne s'y prêtait pas à priori. Les autres la regardent avec un petit sourire en coin. Alors la personne s'aperçoit que c'est de la déformation professionnelle, et généralement (pas toujours) se moque d'elle-même en l'avouant.


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## geve

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Pourtant, j'entends et utilise "c'est de la déformation professionnelle !" le plus souvent sous forme d'auto-dérision.


Pourquoi "pourtant" ?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

geve said:


> Pourquoi "pourtant" ?


J'avais mis d'abord "effectivement", mais ça dépend à qui l'on s'adresse... 
(pour moi, il y a très souvent de l'humour dans cette phrase, pour être plus claire et sous forme d'auto-dérision le plus souvent.)


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## broglet

timpeac said:


> I seem to have been correct in everything I said ... I was correct in saying that one Anglophone said it was a pun and correct in that no Francophone concurred ... I'm fairly sure that that was just a polite way of saying you're wrong - but fair enough, I won't presume to speak for others ... So according to you "it is not pejorative" does not imply "does not necessarily have negative overtones". Well our interpretation of the English language is obviously significantly different. Feel free to substitute "is not pejorative" for "does not necessarily have negative overtones" in my quote above ... Is the original French humorous? I see no evidence that it is, so humorous or necessarily pejorative it seems the wrong translation to me ... And I'm sorry you took such offence at my honestly stated dislike of your translation - there really was no intention other than to give my point of view based on what I genuinely feel is the evidence given by native speakers (and, of course, my non-native impressions from hearing the usage) in this thread up to the point I made the comment ... I haven't, and am glad to see that the posts following yours have supported my interpretations of what's been said to date.


Hi timpeac - as a psychologist I often say things that are wrong - it is something of an occupational disability - but I am delighted if that prompts you to be correct. Please be assured I take no offence whatever. After all, if we are not here to learn, why are we here?

But back to the matter in hand, KaRiNe dit qu'elle entend et utilise la phrase "le plus souvent sous forme d'auto-dérision"

Again speaking as a psychologist, I have noticed that the way people use and understand language is conditioned by their personality. In the case of "déformation professionelle" those who are happy to observe and expose their own weaknesses (including myself) would be happy to use such a phrase "sous forme d'auto-dérision" - in a humorously self-deprecatory way. But we might also 'see' humorous self-deprecation and/or double-entendre even where none existed or was intended.

Those of us who are interested in developing our understanding of languages (which I think is just about everyone here) need to develop self-awareness to the full in order to understand just how our own psychology can distort or obscure meaning. Because in one way or another we all experience various "déformations psychologiques"


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## Icetrance

Agnès E. said:


> It isn't a pun.
> This just mean : l'esprit est déformé par l'aspect professionnel de la vie et, donc, applique à la vie quotidienne un comportement professionnel.
> 
> Comme un vendeur de matériel de jardinage qui ne pourrait s'empêcher de faire l'article d'une tondeuse qu'il vend à son ami qui le reçoit pour un barbecue le dimanche. Il voit le gazon mal tondu et, par déformation professionnelle, commence son argumentaire commercial... ce qui n'est pas nécessairement apprécié de son ami.
> 
> Le terme est le plus souvent péjoratif, bien sûr, puisque le terme _déformation_ a une connotation négative. On peut l'utiliser en riant, mais quand même...



Si cette définition, alors "occupational habit" comme traduction. LOL.

Votre explication du vrai sens est excellente! C'est effectivement le sens de "déformation professionelle."


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## silwilhith

Hi, I reactivate this post for, say,... a "culture-related" question: I wonder if such "work-inducted mannerism" sounds sane for anglo-saxon culture ?
(that would explain the lack of translation)

A couple of examples:
- My wife is hopeless, even though she doesn't work anymore as a book-seller, each time she goes in a book shop, she tends to rearrange the books on the shelves.
- A friend of mine is podologist. Each time he meets someone, he tends to look at his/her feet.

Those few examples raise a smile to French-speaking people because the _déformation professionnelle_ is perceived as natural and almost unavoidable (sane).
Although a psychiatrist could describe it as a sort of nevrotic behaviour (insane).

Can someone give us the English-speakers point of view please ?
(if someone cares about that?) ;-)


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## timpeac

silwilhith said:


> Hi, I reactivate this post for, say,... a "culture-related" question: I wonder if such "work-inducted mannerism" sounds sane for anglo-saxon culture ?


 No, sorry - "to induct" means "to give the basic rules to" - a "work-inducted mannerism" means nothing to me.

Are you thinking of "to induce"? Even if you are a "work-induced mannerism" would sound very odd.


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## Aidanr444

Kelly B said:


> _professional quir_k


 
That is a nice way of putting it, Kelly B


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## silwilhith

Er... Sorry Timpeac, my question is about "cultural acceptance" of this sort of behaviour. 
It has been 4 pages of discussion about the translation, and no clear consensus was reached.
Therefore I wonder if it is "translatable".

(I got a case of a very famous English researcher in Management who totally misunderstood the sense of "_déformation professionnelle_" even though he lived in Geneva for several years. But as he wrote only in English, I suspect no French reader ever made him noticing that point)


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## timpeac

Your question was about "work-inducted mannerism" which isn't English - so it's rather hard to know what you meant.


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## silwilhith

timpeac said:


> Your question was about "work-inducted mannerism" which isn't English - so it's rather hard to know what you meant.


That's right, and that's actually the point.  Is that a common, accepted behaviour in English-speaking countries ?

Because I see that _quirk_ translate into _*excentricité*_.
But in France people who "suffer" of _déformation professionelle_ aren't eccentric! They are just, generally, people dedicated to their work, and who reproduce it "naturally" (by habit) outside their workplace.
("to suffer" is used here in a figurative way, I've never heard of people complaining about this behaviour in France)

In other words, it looks like the concept of this attitude, perceived in France as a very normal thing, may be not as common in some other places.
(and there is nothing offensive in my mind, it is just to see if I shall add some footnotes in my translations)


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## timpeac

silwilhith said:


> That's right, and that's actually the point.  Is that a common, accepted behaviour in English-speaking countries ?


I don't think we're understanding each other here. "Work-inducted mannerism" means nothing in English (I mean literally - it is a grammatically impossible phrase) - I might guess you mean "work-induced mannerism" but I'm not sure, and even if you did I'm not sure what it might mean. Given that, how can I comment on whether this is a common, accepted behaviour in English-speaking countries?


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## clairet

as aidanr444 has it, Kelly B's _professional quirk_ is perfect.  A "quirk" is not the same as an eccentricity (or at most it is a very mild form of eccentricity - of exactly the type that the work-induced mannerisms described are); usually, it refers to a form of behaviour peculiar (i.e. particular) to a person or group, which may or may not be regarded as odd or eccentric by others.  e.g. "it is a quirk of Gordon Brown to move his jaw unnecessarily after he has said something".

Work-induced mannerisms (I agree with silwilhith about "work-inducted" - doesn't exist, but have no problem with "work-induced") aren't much commented on in the UK, as far as I know, but anything that deflates self-important professions is regarded as amusing - psychiatrists, accountants, lawyers and politicians are particular objects of amusement if they introduce professional behaviours to daily life.


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## Icetrance

Why couldn't you just say, "That's just his job coming out in him" (more informal context).


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## timpeac

Icetrance said:


> Why couldn't you just say, "That's just his job coming out in him" (more informal context).


I like that a lot - I've forgotten what happened earlier in this thread, but from what I remember this sounds like the best version to me. For example, I like Kelly's "professional quirk" too - but only as a neat neologism, it's not a set-phrase as far as I know for this.


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## clairet

timpeac said:


> I like Kelly's "professional quirk" too - but only as a neat neologism, it's not a set-phrase as far as I know for this.



neologism? I've encountered the phrase - well, not frequently  - but several times across the last 40 years or so.


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## timpeac

clairet said:


> neologism? I've encountered the phrase - well, not frequently  - but several times across the last 40 years or so.


 Ok - can't say I have. I see that google has 182 hits for it which is quite low - but, yes it's not nothing either. "Déformation professionnelle" however gets 35,400 - which would make me wary of translating what appears to be quite a well-known set phrase by a little-known one rather than periphrasis, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it either.


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## broglet

To some extent 'professionel' and 'professional' are false friends. 'Professional quirk' sounds like something acquired in a profession (eg medicine, law or accountancy) rather than an everyday job. I think 'occupational quirk' might have more general applicability even though it only scores 144 on the googlometer.


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## clairet

All this talk of Google made me look back at the definition of "déformation professionnelle".  What Wikipedia has to say (if it is right) makes me think we're on the wrong track with "professional quirk" and similar phrases.  Wiki says the meaning is "a tendency to look at things from the perspective of one's own profession, and forget the broader perspective".    This is more like "wearing professional/occupational blinkers" than anything so far proposed.  It might indeed be a professional quirk to wear professional blinkers!   (i.e. a professional quirk is an unspecified type of behaviour associated with a profession, while "déformation professionnelle" seems to be a highly specific type of behaviour).


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## christelleny

Icetrance said:


> I agree. I wouldn't use "professional deformation" as a translation either.
> I would say "*occupational habit*."
> 
> These are the (negative) traits acquired by working in a certain profession.



I agree. *Occupational idiosyncracy *is another option.


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## Exeria

Bonjour! 

I work as an administrator and I would tend to put down to my "Déformation professionnelle" the fact that I keep spotting things like spelling or grammar mistakes... 
I am trying to explain the above to an English speaking son but I am not sure how to translate "Déformation professionnelle"... Professional deformation just does sound right! 

Can anyone help please?


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## Itisi

Robert & Collins: job conditioning


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## Kelly B

It's an occupational hazard. That's not a direct translation, it's closer to un risque professionnel/du métier, but you should be able to address the déformation bit in the rest of the sentence.


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## Exeria

Kelly B said:


> It's an occupational hazard. That's not a direct translation, it's closer to un risque professionnel/du métier, but you should be able to address the déformation bit in the rest of the sentende.


Makes sense,...! I think I prefer that to the job conditioning 

Thank you both!


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## timpeac

Kelly B said:


> It's an occupational hazard. That's not a direct translation, it's closer to un risque professionnel/du métier, but you should be able to address the déformation bit in the rest of the sentence.


Yes, I agree with Kelly. Although "occupational hazard" isn't a direct translation it is completely idiomatic and very much along the same lines. Also, if the sense of "hazard" is a little tongue-in-cheek then it is approaching being a direct translation.


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## Topsie

christelleny said:


> *Occupational idiosyncracy *is another option.



 Nice one!


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## Kelly B

I've quoted portions of those posts below for reference.
Yes, it's normal and accepted here, though it can be annoying sometimes, and  it gives us the same little smile Silwilhith mentioned. _Quirk _as I used it here isn't quite excentricité, but rather idiosyncrasie, qui provient bien sûr de son métier. So I think it fits Silwilhith's situations, and so does occupational hazard, given adequate context.

(and so do a lot of the other suggestions above, though I'd have to look through them all again to pick my favorites. I'd forgotten about the older part of this thread. )



silwilhith said:


> [...]I wonder if such "work-inducted mannerism" sounds sane for anglo-saxon culture ? [...]
> 
> A couple of examples:
> - My wife is hopeless, even though she doesn't work anymore as a book-seller, each time she goes in a book shop, she tends to rearrange the books on the shelves.
> - A friend of mine is podologist. Each time he meets someone, he tends to look at his/her feet.
> Those few examples raise a smile to French-speaking people because the _déformation professionnelle is perceived as natural and almost unavoidable (sane)._[...]





silwilhith said:


> Er... Sorry Timpeac, my question is about "cultural acceptance" of this sort of behaviour. [...]





silwilhith said:


> [...]Is that a common, accepted behaviour in English-speaking countries ? Because I see that _quirk_ translate into _*excentricité*_.
> But in France people who "suffer" of _déformation professionelle_ aren't eccentric! They are just, generally, people dedicated to their work, and who reproduce it "naturally" (by habit) outside their workplace.[...]


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## EXPRESSions

How about simply "*force of habit*"?

I realize that it doesn't have the connotation that the habit was acquired through one's profession, but I think it is the way I would excuse myself to a friend if they noticed that I had checked their dog's ears while petting them. It seems weird to anyone else, but it is a reflex for most veterinarians.


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## Kelly B

I don't prefer it over earlier suggestions, but if the occupational aspect is already clear from context, sure, it fits.


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## se16teddy

He thinks/acts like a lawyer. I don't think there is any particular word for thinking (or acting) like a lawyer (or any other profession) when you are one.


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## DrChen

Just saying, I am a native French speaker, and I completely agree with this :



broglet said:


> "Déformation professionelle" is actually a rather amusing pun. It is taken from "formation professionelle" (= professional training) and what it suggests is that whereas training prepares you for the job, the job itself renders you unprepared for real life (eg by causing you to talk in jargon)


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## Itisi

I dare to call myself a French speaker, and I wonder why I haven't said before that I disagree with this suggestion that there is a pun involving 'formation'. So perhaps we could go on for a few more pages on this thread discussing this!


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## DrChen

Itisi said:


> So perhaps we could go on for a few more pages on this thread discussing this!


Yeah, I can understand why you think there isn't a pun. Let's agree to disagree, then


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## Jaykew

“I’m a teacher / doctor (etc.), I just can’t help it.”


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## Louis XI

Dans une conversation, je dirais simplement "Sorry, force of habit" pour « Désolé, déformation professionnelle. »


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## Jaykew

Louis XI said:


> Dans une conversation, je dirais simplement "Sorry, force of habit" pour « Désolé, déformation professionnelle. »


Oui, très bon choix, en effet !


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## Icetrance

You might say something like: "_It just comes with the job_".


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## Jaykew

Icetrance said:


> You might say something like: "_It just comes with the job_".


I love it!


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