# кого-либо



## Riverplatense

Привет,

у меня книга, которая перечислит русские глаголы. На индексе она сообщат падеж, который они требуют. Не сообщат, однако, фактический падеж, но местоимения (_кого-либо, ком-либо, что-либо_ и т.д.). Но я думаю, что есть местоимения, которые могут быт родительный падеж или винительный падеж, как-то _кого-либо_. Имеются и много случаев, где русский язык пользоваться разные падежи, чем немецкий язык, тоже родительный падеж вместо винительный падеж. Это ошибка книги или моя ошибка?

Спасибо! И простите, пожалуйста, мое плохое применение русской грамматика.


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## LilianaB

Could you give some examples what exactly you have in mind. Which verbs? You cannot compare Russian and German they are quite different, or any language in that matter. You can answer in Russian, but I cannot type in Russian right now.


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## Riverplatense

LilianaB said:


> Could you give some examples what exactly you have in mind. Which verbs? You cannot compare Russian and German they are quite different, or any language in that matter. You can answer in Russian, but I cannot type in Russian right now.



Thank you. I guess it's better if I write in English, too... Well, of course Russian and German can not be compared; I just wanted to explain that one can't deduce that when in German you use the accusative, you can't use genitive in Russian since there are cases where in German you use the accusative whereas in Russian you must put the word into genitive. Therefore I think that indications such as _благодарить кого-либо_ are not that helpful since this could mean that the verb reigns accusative _or_ genitive, even though you have to use accusative. I just wondered why they didn't write, for instance, _благодарить_ *A*, so there would not be any doubt. But maybe also _благодарить кого-либо_ is completely clear. For me, at the moment, it is not.


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## LilianaB

It is a very complex problem I think. Even native speakers sometimes use the Accusative and the Genitive differently. The example you gave in Russian should be followed by the Genitive. I is somehow automatic, but I learned Russian more or less the natural way in my childhood. We discussed the use of the Accusative and the Genitive in this forum, but the problem is quite complex. The case changes with negation, and there is a different case with partitives as opposed to regular nouns. Maybe somebody who know the detail of all grammatical rules can explain it to you better.


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## Syline

LilianaB said:


> The example you gave in Russian should be followed by the Genitive.


It requires the Accusative. _Благодарить кого-либо, что-либо (*not* чего-либо).

_*Riverplatense*, you can determine the right case with the help of inanimate pronoun *что-либо*, if it's indicated: что-либо (acc.) and чего-либо (gen.). Keep also in mind that a transitive verb requires a direct object in its Accusative form.


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## LilianaB

Yes, of course you are right the Accusative but the Accusative and the Genitive of animate nouns is in this case are  the same. I was somehow thinking about the animate. Yes, it should be the Accusative, but some other examples can be more controversial.


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## Riverplatense

Syline said:


> It requires the Accusative. _Благодарить кого-либо, что-либо (*not* чего-либо).
> 
> _*Riverplatense*, you can determine the right case with the help of inanimate pronoun *что-либо*, if it's indicated: что-либо (acc.) and чего-либо (gen.). Keep also in mind that a transitive verb requires a direct object in its Accusative form.



Thank you very much, Syline. Thanks also to Liliana. Yes, thinking about the verbs' transitivity is a good idea. Maybe I've sometimes been irritated by reflective verbs which, obviously, require an indirect object (too), but actually it's the consideration one always has to keep in mind!


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## Syline

Riverplatense said:


> Maybe I've sometimes been irritated by reflective verbs which, obviously, require an indirect object (too), but actually it's the consideration one always has to keep in mind!


I think I expressed my thought not exactly. Transitive verbs can also be followed by indirect objects. My point is that a direct object is always put in the Accusative. 
Compare:
Я даю тебе (indirect object, Dative) книгу (direct object, Accusative).
Ich gebe dir (indirect object, Dative) ein Buch (direct object, Accusative).


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## LilianaB

In the affirmative yes, if it it not a partitive noun. With the negation it might be different.


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## Riverplatense

Syline said:


> It requires the Accusative. _Благодарить кого-либо, что-либо (*not* чего-либо).
> 
> _*Riverplatense*, you can determine the right case with the help of inanimate pronoun *что-либо*, if it's indicated: что-либо (acc.) and чего-либо (gen.). Keep also in mind that a transitive verb requires a direct object in its Accusative form.



I'm sorry, but, after thinking about it again, it's still not completely clear to me: when the dictionary indicates _verb кого-л.(/кого-н_.), can I be sure that it requires Accusative (and not Genitive)? I mean, when there's a verb like _спрашивать_, you won't find it combined with an inanimate pronoun. How about the respective paradigm? What would stand there if it required Genitive? I know that it's a relatively «stupid» question and my skills are on a very low level, but I truly don't know...


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## LilianaB

You could use it with an inanimate object in poetry, for example, but then the inanimate noun behaves like an animate. 

спрашвать у кого - у осени.  It can indicate the Accusative or the Genitive for animate objects, I think.


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## Riverplatense

Thank you, LilianaB, but actually I only wanted to know whether the indication in the dictionary gives a clear idea of which case I should use. 

So when I read _спрашивать_ _кого-н_., how do I know that it requires Accusative and not Genitive? Wouldn't _кого-н_. also be a Genitive pronoun?


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## LilianaB

I do not know exactly because I learned Russian more the natural way and I know it intuitively. The form is the same for many nouns - animate nouns in the Genitive and the Accusative, I am not sure if this is true about all declensions, I have to think about it.


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## morzh

Riverplatense said:


> So when I read _спрашивать_ _кого-н_., how do I know that it requires Accusative and not Genitive? Wouldn't _кого-н_. also be a Genitive pronoun?





It should be simple:

Transitive verbs always require Accusative, and so if your verb was transitive and used with "кто-либо", it will render the latter being in Accusative and will look like:

Спрашивать кого-либо.
Любить кого-либо.
Бить кого-либо.
Приветствовать кого-либо.

If the sentence contains something like:

- Нет ли у нас кого-либо, кто бъi смог с етим справиться?

Then "кого-либо" in this particular case is in Genitive.

Because your verb in *"спрашивать кого-н*" is transitive and the object is "кого-либо", you know for a fact that it is Accusative.


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## Explorer41

Riverplatense said:


> Thank you, LilianaB, but actually I only wanted to know whether the indication in the dictionary gives a clear idea of which case I should use.
> 
> So when I read _спрашивать_ _кого-н_., how do I know that it requires Accusative and not Genitive? Wouldn't _кого-н_. also be a Genitive pronoun?


Yes, it could. And it can be an Accusative pronoun just as well -- nothing changes. It because it is an animate pronoun. So here's no difference in form between Genitive and Accusative -- the difference comes in when we talk about inanimate objects. So you are safe while you use animate nouns (for example, "покойник", or "кто-нибудь", "кто-либо"), including the use of adjectives ("я спрашивал холодного покойника" -- everything is the same as in Genitive); when you use inanimate nouns (for example, "труп", also "что-нибудь", "что-либо"), you have to deal with this difference (and in the case of the verb "вопросить" you should use the Accusative form: "я вопросил холодный труп", "спрашивать" would sound strange here).


morzh said:


> Because your verb in *"спрашивать кого-н*" is transitive and the object is "кого-либо", you know for a fact that it is Accusative.


The only problem is how can he know the verb is transitive.


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## Riverplatense

morzh said:


> It should be simple:
> 
> Transitive verbs always require Accusative, and so if your verb was transitive and used with "кто-либо", it will render the latter being in Accusative and will look like:
> 
> Спрашивать кого-либо.
> Любить кого-либо.
> Бить кого-либо.
> Приветствовать кого-либо.
> 
> If the sentence contains something like:
> 
> - Нет ли у нас кого-либо, кто бъi смог с етим справиться?
> 
> Then "кого-либо" in this particular case is in Genitive.
> 
> Because your verb in *"спрашивать кого-н*" is transitive and the object is "кого-либо", you know for a fact that it is Accusative.



Yes, but then, there are transitive verbs like _требовать _or _избегать_, which, however, require Genitive. So, how would be the relative indication in a dictionary without mentioning the explicit clause? How can it be distinguished from the Accusative?


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## Explorer41

"требовать" and "избегать" are not considered transitive, because they require the Genitive. Can you provide an example of an article from your dictionary? Maybe that info (about using a verb with inanimate nouns, when the verb is most often used with animate nouns) is not mentioned there at all.


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## morzh

Riverplatense said:


> Yes, but then, there are transitive verbs like _требовать _or _избегать_, which, however, require Genitive. So, how would be the relative indication in a dictionary without mentioning the explicit clause? How can it be distinguished from the Accusative?



Transitive verbs are those that have a noun as their direct object of action, and by definition require ONLY Accusative.



Explorer41 said:


> The only problem is how can he know the verb is transitive.



Dictionary will say if it is or not.
Also, look for direct object of action.


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## Riverplatense

E.g., my (German-Russian) dictionary provides the following grammatical information about _требовать_:
требовать: _tr _(etw. von j-m чего-н. от кого-н)
​

So, in this case it seems clear that I have to use Genitive for the «direct object» (which, actually, is not an object, I think, but I wouldn't know it before) and Accusative for the «indirect object» (which in Russian, however, is the direct one). 

It's more confusing on a verb like _спрашивать_:
спрашивать: _tr_ (j-n nach etw. кого-н о чем-н)
​

So, should I deduce that it's Accusative from the fact that it's a transitive verb and the second argument requires Instrumental case?


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## Explorer41

Yes. -------------------


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## Angelo di fuoco

Riverplatense said:


> E.g., my (German-Russian) dictionary provides the following grammatical information about _требовать_:
> требовать: _tr _(etw. von j-m чего-н. от кого-н)
> ​
> 
> So, in this case it seems clear that I have to use Genitive for the «direct object» (which, actually, is not an object, I think, but I wouldn't know it before) and Accusative for the «indirect object» (which in Russian, however, is the direct one).
> 
> It's more confusing on a verb like _спрашивать_:
> спрашивать: _tr_ (j-n nach etw. кого-н о чем-н)
> ​
> 
> So, should I deduce that it's Accusative from the fact that it's a transitive verb and the second argument requires Instrumental case?



Кого о чём - Prepositiv. Leider Gottes werden die zwei Punkte in ё nur sehr selten geschrieben. Muttersprachler haben damit _meist_ keine Probleme, auch wenn sich gewisse falsche Gebräuche einschleichen.


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## morzh

Riverplatense said:


> E.g., my (German-Russian) dictionary provides the following grammatical information about _требовать_:
> требовать: _tr _(etw. von j-m чего-н. от кого-н)
> ​
> 
> So, in this case it seems clear that I have to use Genitive for the «direct object» (which, actually, is not an object, I think, but I wouldn't know it before) and Accusative for the «indirect object» (which in Russian, however, is the direct one).
> 
> It's more confusing on a verb like _спрашивать_:
> спрашивать: _tr_ (j-n nach etw. кого-н о чем-н)
> ​
> 
> So, should I deduce that it's Accusative from the fact that it's a transitive verb and the second argument requires Instrumental case?



Yes. Only the second arg. is in Prepositional (Locative) and not Instrumental.


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## Riverplatense

Aha, thank you Explorer41, morzh, LilianaB, Syline again and Angelo di fuoco.

It's more logical, too that one has to use предложный падеж in this case...


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## ne_parsya

riverplatense said:


> it's more confusing on a verb like _спрашивать_:
> спрашивать: _tr_ (j-n nach etw. кого-н о чем-н)​


​
Спрашивать -кого or -у кого
о чем? про что? за что?


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## Moro12

ne_parsya said:


> [/indent]
> Спрашивать -кого or -у кого
> о чем? про что? за что?



Спрашивать за что is a sub-standard usage, I do not think it is correct Russian.

It is either dialectal
e.g. in some Russian dialects spoken in Ukraine they might say: Он спрашивал меня за погоду. Which would be: Он спрашивал меня о погоде (про погоду) in standard Russian.

Or it is a colloquial (or slang) usage with a completely different meaning: Спрашивать с кого за что - to blame somebody for something, to make answer somebody for something. It is especially common in the criminal jargon.


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