# cocina india



## lloyds

Buenas noches! Tengo que traducir unos menùes de cocina india.  Empiezo por preguntar còmo dicen "cocina india" en inglès? "indian kitchen"? esta bien la palabra "indian"? mil gracias


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## Moritzchen

Indian Cuisine.


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## lloyds

Hola Moritzen!!!  ¿la palabra "cuisine" no es francesa?, o en inglés se usa asi?


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## Moritzchen

Sí, es francesa pero se usa. Por ejemplo, fíjate en este restaurante indio de por acá.


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## Justham

Sí se usa la palabra francesa para hablar de la cocina de una etnía o un país o (menos frecuente) región.  También se dice "cooking".

Spanish cuisine/cooking
Indian cuisine/cooking
Latin American cuisine/cooking
Afro-american cuisine/cooking
Jewish cuisine/cooking
Southern cuisine/cooking

La diferencia es que en francés se usa para todo, hasta para referirse a una persona; en inglés, no.

La cuisine de ma mere.
My mother's cuisine.
My mother's cooking.


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## fenixpollo

Indian cuisine / Indian cooking - cocina de la India
Native American cuisine / Native American cooking - cocina indígena

No es que "indian" esté mal en este contexto para referirse a los indígenas americanos, sino que existe la posibilidad de confusión entre lo indio y lo hindú.


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## lloyds

hola a todos!! en primer lugar, muchìsimas gracias por sus respuestas, realmente muy clarificadoras.
En segundo lugar, siiii!! justamente se refiere a cocina hindù, no a nativos americanos.  ¿Se mantiene la palabra "indian"?
thanks you all!!


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## sound shift

Para evitar que se produzcan confusiones, podrías decir "Cuisine of India" o "Cuisine of the Indian Sub-Continent" (con "Indian", no "indian").


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## lloyds

and what about "Indian cuisine" ?  thanks again!!


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## sound shift

lloyds said:


> and what about "Indian cuisine" ?  thanks again!!


In the UK that would be fine, but judging by what fenixpollo says at post no. 6, this could be ambiguous in the USA.


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## mokane

then how about Desi Cuisine?


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## Bill Osler

"Desi Cuisine" would not mean much to the majority of Americans.
FenixPollo is correct that "Indian" is ambiguous, but never-the-less, 
"Indian Cuisine" is the way it would usually be labeled here, and any ambiguity is usually avoided by putting an Asian graphic or an elephant or something of that sort on the signage and logo.
For example: http://www.nawabindiancuisine.com/
I cannot speak for other parts of the US, but where I live the Native American restaurants are few, and they are always clearly branded as "Native American" 
The only example that comes to mind is a restaurant that is now closed:
http://www.mohicanpress.com/spirits_menu.html


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## mokane

A U.S.-centric translation wasn't requested. That Americans wouldn't understand the frighteningly common adjective "Desi," a word whose use eliminates confusion is whose fault exactly? Some Americans may not understand the word, but I'd like to think that those who don't would look it up.


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## Bill Osler

mokane said:


> A U.S.-centric translation wasn't requested. That Americans wouldn't understand the frighteningly common adjective "Desi," a word whose use eliminates confusion is whose fault exactly? Some Americans may not understand the word, but I'd like to think that those who don't would look it up.



You are correct, a US-centric translation was not requested, but I think it is important for people to recognize how things will be perceived by diverse users of the language.  

Regarding the use of dictionaries I believe you are hopelessly optimistic.  Even in this forum, with visitors who presumably want to learn new vocabulary, it is not at all unusual to see questions posed which could have easily been answered by consulting a dictionary.  

Even if someone DID consult a dictionary, the entry for 'Desi' might be less than enlightening.  See, for example:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Desi
I don't see any unambiguous mention of South Asia in the main entry there except in the matter of etymology.  Another source said this: "It is mainly used by those of South Asian origins themselves, rarely by the majority population ..." which suggests that one should not necessarily expect the majority of readers to understand its meaning.  Even in this forum, the bilingual dictionary has no entry for 'Desi' and the monolingual English dictionary lists (for its use as an adjective) a definition that is not necessarily linked to South Asia.

Given the typical target audience in this case I am not at all convinced use of an uncommon word is going to be helpful.


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## fenixpollo

No, a US-centric translation wasn't requested, nor was a British-centric translation requested. So it's good that we discuss all the various dialects in this thread.

I agree with Bill Osler on several points:
- _Indian cuisine_ would be understood by most Americans to mean "food from India". Since that translation would be understood by most people, I think it's your best bet so far.
- Restaurants that serve Native American food are rare in the U.S.
- Most Americans would not know the word Desi, outside of the context of the TV show _I Love Lucy_. Even if they looked it up in our dictionary, they might not be sure about its register (i.e. whether it's derogatory).

I also share Bill's lack of optimism about the likelihood that the average person would consult a dictionary when confronted with an unknown word. :sad:


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## ampurdan

Choosing the most suitable translation should not be a question of whose fault is knowing what thing, but of what is actually most widely understood by the target audience.

Anyway, the Wikipedia article on "Desi" makes this statement "_In the U.S., "Desi food" most often refers to dishes commonly served in  Indian communities, especially westernized restaurant dishes such as chicken tikka masalahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi#cite_note-Toronto_Star-2_". As a source, a link to this article is given (even though it's from a Toronto newspaper). This source is also given for the use of "Desi" in the US.


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## mokane

I firmly believe that the residents of the United States of America have the intellectual capacity to understand the term, "Desi." 

The term is in no way derogatory.


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## artstar89

British people would say "Indian cuisine" or "Indian food". We would not say "Desi cuisine". I don't believe this is a linguistic difference between the UK and the US, neither is it a lack of understanding, it's just not said.


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## lloyds

Well, I`ll give this some second thoughts, but I wanna say thank you to all of you.  It is beautifull how much one can learn from these discussions, you`ve taken the time to explain your points of view and that is terribly enlightening!!
I`ll let you know the way I put it!!


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## Justham

mokane said:


> I firmly believe that the residents of the United States of America have the intellectual capacity to understand the term, "Desi."
> 
> The term is in no way derogatory.


 
Desilusiónese: todos los años que preparaba comida india en casa, comprando ingredientes en tiendas étnicas, nunca escuché ese término haste el momento, y hesitaría usarlo por temor a que fuese despectivo.  Se desconoce en EEUU (salvo, como lo dijo fenixpollo, como el nombre del cantante cubano esposo de Lucille Ball, Desi Arnaz).


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## lloyds

o sea, "Desi" no va?


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## fenixpollo

No, _Desi_ no va porque no se entiende en todo el mundo angloparlante, y porque en la región donde se entiende, no se utiliza la frase "Desi cuisine".


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## mokane

Hable con un ciudadano del subcontinente. Preguntale si se usa el termino y vas a ver.


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## aurilla

Moritzchen said:


> Indian Cuisine.


 
I agree.


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## mokane

ampurdan said:


> Choosing the most suitable translation should not be a question of whose fault is knowing what thing, but of what is actually most widely understood by the target audience.
> 
> Anyway, the Wikipedia article on "Desi" makes this statement "_In the U.S., "Desi food" most often refers to dishes commonly served in  Indian communities, especially westernized restaurant dishes such as chicken tikka masalahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi#cite_note-Toronto_Star-2_". As a source, a link to this article is given (even though it's from a Toronto newspaper). This source is also given for the use of "Desi" in the US.




Look at Ampurdan's contribution. The term is most definitely used. What's more, it's useful word because it eliminates confusion that is still with us more than 500 years after Columbus' error.


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## aurilla

lloyds said:


> hola a todos!! en primer lugar, muchìsimas gracias por sus respuestas, realmente muy clarificadoras.
> En segundo lugar, siiii!! justamente se refiere a cocina hindù, no a nativos americanos. ¿Se mantiene la palabra "indian"?
> thanks you all!!


 
En Estados Unidos "Indian Cuisine / Cooking" es comida de la India, mientras que "Native American Cuisine / Cooking" es comida de los nativos americanos.


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## mokane

y hay lugares afuera de los estados pegados donde hablan el ingles. And I wouldn't say "hindu," people from many Indian states are far from homogenous, take Kerala for instance.


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## aurilla

mokane said:


> I firmly believe that the residents of the United States of America have the intellectual capacity to understand the term, "Desi."
> 
> The term is in no way derogatory.


 
If the purpose is to attract people to a particular restaurant or style of cooking, then the more commonly used term will better serve the purpose than, say, a less commonly used term, albeit, more correct. 

If the person wants to make it evident that the particular type of cooking is "Desi", then that could be added in the sign, menu, brochure, etc., for the purpose of clarity. 

Ej. Indian Cuisine / Cooking
(Desi Cuisine/Cooking)

In any means of communiction one should "never assume or presume".


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## fenixpollo

The "source" article that ampurdan's contribution gives for the U.S. usage is an article in which the author explains the definition of _Desi_. The author did that, I imagine, because she thought that a number of her readers would not know what the term means.

You are right, mokane. The term is definitely used. You, yourself, are proof of that. I never suggested that the word is not used _anywhere_, merely that it is not used _everywhere_. Is it an appropriate word? It sounds like it ought to be. Is it the best word for a translation that might be read by English-speakers around the world? No. 

I am sure that there are many people in the U.S., especially those that live in cities with large Indian communities, that have heard the term. I do not live in a city with a large Indian community and I was not familiar with the word _Desi_ before participating in this thread. I've never heard anyone in my region use it, and the people I have asked about it had likewise never heard it.


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## mokane

So the lowest possible denominator is the rule? Doubleplusungood.


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## aurilla

mokane said:


> So the lowest possible denominator is the rule? Doubleplusungood.


 
The highest possible denominator would be the term understood by the majority. The idea is to include (attract) not exclude.


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## gengo

mokane said:


> The term [Desi] is most definitely used. What's more, it's useful word because it eliminates confusion that is still with us more than 500 years after Columbus' error.



I happen to live in an area where there are many Indian immigrants, and I can assure you that very few people outside that community are familiar with this word.  I would guess that over 90% of the Americans in my area (the SF Bay Area), who are not related to India, have never heard the word.  Therefore, the word would be utterly useless to those people.

I agree with those who have said that "Indian cuisine/cooking" is the best translation here.  There would almost never be any confusion with that term.

And for what it's worth, although we have virtually every type of restaurant here in the San Francisco area, I have never seen one that serves Native American food, although I suppose that many Mexican dishes (such as those that use tortillas) could be considered at least partially Native American.


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## Bill Osler

mokane said:


> Look at Ampurdan's contribution. The term is most definitely used. What's more, it's useful word because it eliminates confusion that is still with us more than 500 years after Columbus' error.



I don't think anybody has questioned whether or not the word is sometimes used.  It just isn't used by very many English speakers in the areas where various contributors live.  

I have to admit that I'm a bit amused by the citation of NPR as evidence of common use in the US.  Personally I love (and support) my local NPR station but I don't think anybody should consider the language used on NPR as typical of American discourse.  NPR's listeners are not a very typical cross-section of the American public.

If clear communication and effective marketing are the goal here then using a label like 'Desi' will not be helpful, no matter how accurate the word is.  

Consider an alternative scenario: If you found a small rubbery lump under the skin would you prefer to have your doctor tell you that it is a lipoma with an excellent prognosis?  Or a harmless fatty nodule?  The first would generally be considered more accurate, but there are very few patients I would speak to in that manner.


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## lloyds

and if I say "Indian cuisine" it will be undestood by the majority as the typical cooking of the hindu communities?  that`s the point, in fact......


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## gengo

lloyds said:


> and if I say "Indian cuisine" it will be undestood by the majority as the typical cooking of the hindu communities?  that`s the point, in fact......



Yes, it will be understood by virtually all English speakers.

Note, though, that "Hindu" usually refers to a religion and not an ethnic or group or nationality (with some exceptions).  The proper term is Indian, referring to people from the country of India.

Note also that "Indian cuisine" encompasses a wide range of cooking styles and cultures, but in the US, at least, everyone has a general idea of what kind of food it refers to.


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## lloyds

I see. Very useful comment.  I think this quotation has something to do with what you said: 

_Originally Posted by *mokane* 

_ 
_Look at Ampurdan's contribution. The term is most definitely used. What's more, it's useful word because it eliminates confusion that is still with us more than 500 years after Columbus' error.
_
In fact, it also happens to us, Spanish speaking people, we have to make some remarks in order to explain which kind of "indio" are we talking about.


crazy world!! 
thanks everybody!!


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