# Put the grapes on top or they will get crushed



## Abu Talha

When filling a bag with items of various weight, if I want to say

"Put the grapes on top or they will get crushed."

can I say

ضع العنب فوق الأشياء الأخرى كيلا يُسحق أو يُدقّ

or is سحق and دق used for crushing something by pounding it, and not by the steady application of weight? Does يُضغظ work otherwise?


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## Crimson-Sky

It may look awkward but يُعصَر fits just fine, the others on the other hand sound a bit odd to my ears.


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## Abu Talha

Thank you Crimson-Sky. Is your choice of عصر because of the type of the crushed object, i.e., it is a fruit? 

What would be used for a hat being put in a box together with some heavy books, where you would like the hat to be put on top so that it does not get crushed by the weight of the books?


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## Crimson-Sky

Abu Talha said:


> Thank you Crimson-Sky. Is your choice of عصر because of the type of the crushed object, i.e., it is a fruit?



Yes. 



Abu Talha said:


> What would be used for a hat being put in a box together with some heavy  books, where you would like the hat to be put on top so that it does  not get crushed by the weight of the books?


I would say انكمشَ.
كيلا تنكمش القبعة ...


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## إسكندراني

I don't know a proper Arabic way to say this. There must be a nicer word than انكمش, which means 'contract'. In the Egyptian dialect we would say حُطّ العنب فوق عشان ما يتفعصش (أو عشان ما يتفعّصش)ـ


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Crimson-Sky, Iskenderany. By the way, am I right about دق and سحق requiring an instantaneous force? Also, why does not ضغط work here?


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## Crimson-Sky

Abu Talha said:


> Thanks Crimson-Sky, Iskenderany. By the way, am I right about دق and سحق requiring an instantaneous force?



Yes.

ضغط is a bit technical ; we say الضغط الجوي, ضغط الدم.(Blood pressure, atmospheric pressure)


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## Crataegus

Abu Talha said:


> Thanks Crimson-Sky, Iskenderany. By the way, am I right about دق and سحق requiring an instantaneous force? Also, why does not ضغط work here?



Abu talha, you're completely right about دق and سحق, and for ضغط it doesn't work here because it means (to apply pressure,hence ينضغط = to be pressed) which doesn't imply the (smashing\breaking) of grapes
All I can think of is the colloquial word of ينخبص or يتخبص. In Syria we usually say حط العنب فوق مشان ما يتخبص or مشان ما ينخبص which come from the classical Arabic verb خَبَصَ but I don't think it could be used here because apparently it has a different meaning


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## Crimson-Sky

Crataegus said:


> Abu talha, you're completely right about دق and سحق, and for ضغط it doesn't work here because it means (to apply pressure,hence ينضغط = to be pressed) which doesn't imply the (smashing\breaking) of grapes
> All I can think of is the colloquial word of ينخبص or يتخبص. In Syria we usually say حط العنب فوق مشان ما يتخبص or مشان ما ينخبص which come from the classical Arabic verb خَبَصَ but I don't think it could be used here because apparently it has a different meaning



Does this mean that we can't say ينضغط العنب ?


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## Crataegus

Crimson-Sky said:


> Does this mean that we can't say ينضغط العنب ?



Yes Crimson-Sky that's what I meant, because ضغط in Arabic in more like "lay stress on something" it doesn't denote any smashing or breaking so it doesn't give the exact meaning of "crush"


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## Crimson-Sky

I thought you said ضَغطَ can't be used with عنب, i should have read your post more carefully, thank you .


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Crataegus, Crimson-Sky. I wonder if you could take a look at these words.

1. هرس is translated as "to squash" but the Arabic definition uses دقّ so I'm not sure if it works here.
2. كبّس على الشيء
3. شدّخ فتشدّخ. This seems most promising to me. لسان العرب says





> الشَّدْخُ: الكسرُ في كل شيء رَطْب؛ وقيل: هو التَّهْشِيم يعني به كَسْرَ اليابس وكلِّ أَجوفَ؛ شَدَخَه بَشْدَخُه شَدْخاً فانْشَدَخ وتَشَدَّخ. الليث: الشَّدْخ كسرك الشيءَ الأَجْوَفَ كالرأْس ونحوه؛ شَدَخَ رأْسَه فانْشَدَخَ وشُدِّختِ الرُؤُوس، شُدِّدَ للكثرة.
> وفي الحديث: فَشَدَخُوه بالحجارة؛ الشَّدْخُ: كسر الشيء الأَجْوَفِ وكذلك كل شيء رَخْصٍ كالعَرْفَجِ وما أَشبهه.
> والمُشَدَّخُ بُسْرٌ يُغْمَز حتى يَنْشَدِخ. ابن سيده: وعَجَلَةٌ شَدْخَةٌ رَطْبَة رَخْصَةٌ، أَعني بالعَجَلَة ضرباً من النبات


4. I was also thinking of داس يدوس and وطئ يطأ but they seem to be specific to trampling/treading.
5. Also, it don't think it applies but just in case it works: طحن.

Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

يُهرس، يُكبس، يُداس are good.
طحن is for grain.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks Iskenderany. Do you think كبس has the same problem as ضغط inasmuch it does not denote any crushing:


Crataegus said:


> ...because ضغط in Arabic in more like "lay stress on something" it doesn't denote any smashing or breaking so it doesn't give the exact meaning of "crush"


Also, what do you think about هرس requiring instantaneous force, e.g., using a مهراس?
Any thoughts about شدخ? I thought I had found a good one, since this verb is also found in Wehr's MSA dictionary. Another verb is فضخ which seems to be synonymous to شدخ but it seems quite rare.


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## Crimson-Sky

Yes كبس has the same problem as ضغط ; it doesn't denote any crushing.
Does هرس require an instantaneous force ? Yes it does. (Yet it is a far cry from طحَنَ and دقّ ).


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## Abu Talha

I see. Thanks Crimson-Sky.


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## Crataegus

Abu Talha, شدخ and فضخ are uncommon archaic words, I don't think anyone would understand the meaning behind. besides, based on the explanation provided they don't have the accurate meaning of "crush"


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## Abu Talha

Crataegus said:


> Abu Talha, شدخ and فضخ are uncommon archaic words, I don't think anyone would understand the meaning behind. besides, based on the explanation provided they don't have the accurate meaning of "crush"


Thanks Crataeus. I appreciate your point about the verb being archaic. However, just for my own understanding, do you get a different meaning from the definition of شدخ ? The sentence والمُشَدَّخُ بُسْرٌ يُغْمَز حتى يَنْشَدِخ seems to me to mean, "المشدخ is an unripe date which is pressed until it ينشدخ" which seems pretty close to crushed. What do you think?

Also, I was searching for "crushed" in translated Arabic texts and I found in Tafsir ibn Kathir:


تفسير ابن كثير said:


> قالوا: زعم صالح أنه يفرغ منا إلى ثلاثة أيام، فنحن نفرغ منه وأهله قبل ثلاث، وكان لصالح مسجد في الحجر عند شعب هناك يصلي فيه، فخرجوا إلى كهف، أي: غار هناك ليلاً، فقالوا: إذا جاء يصلي، قتلناه، ثم رجعنا إذا فرغنا منه إلى أهله ففرغنا منهم، فبعث الله عليهم صخرة من الهضب حيالهم، فخشوا أن تشدخهم، فتبادروا، فانطبقت عليهم الصخرة وهم في ذلك الغار...إلخ
> Source: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...No=53&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1



I also found the verb رضّ يرضّ used here:





تفسير ابن كثير said:


> وقيل: ثقيل وقت نزوله من عظمته، كما قال زيد بن ثابت رضي الله عنه: أنزل على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وفخذه على فخذي فكادت ترض فخذي.
> Source: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...hNo=1&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1


 Both of which qtafsir.com translates with "crush". However, ترض is translated by sunnah.com in this hadith by "fracture". http://sunnah.com/urn/42710
رض is also defined as الدق الجريش (coarse pounding?) by al-Lisan.

And speaking of rare unused verbs, I happened to come across داك يدوك as the next entry after داس يدوس. It is defined by al-Lisan as الدَّوْكُ: دق الشيء وسحقه وطحنه كما يَدُوك البعيرُ الشيء بكَلْكَلهِ. I guess this is as close to our desired meaning as we can get. The analogy is of something that gets crushed by a camel's chest when it sits on the ground. However, it is probably too archaic.

However, I note that it too is defined by دق which seems like the most general verb used in the definitions.

Finally, I see أطبق used in the hadith when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم went to aT-Taaif. It seems like it could be used in some situations but probably not for grapes.





			
				رياض الصالحين said:
			
		

> ... فنادانى فقال‏:‏ إن الله تعالى قد سمع قول قومك لك، وما ردوا عليك، وقد بعث إليك ملك الجبال لتأمره بما شئت فيهم فنادانى ملك الجبال، فسلم على ثم قال‏:‏ يا محمد إن الله قد سمع قول قومك لك، وأنا ملك الجبال، وقد بعثنى ربى إليك لتأمرنى بأمرك،فما شئت‏:‏ إن شئت أطبقت عليهم الأخشبين” ... إلخ
> Source: http://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1#643



Sorry for the long post. Thanks for reading!


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## إسكندراني

I shall try to read your long post in detail, and see if I can help.
But regarding شدخ, I think that means 'scratch' (maybe it's Egyptian? I am not sure if it counts as MSA).


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