# Levantine: عم بتروحي عند الدكتور؟



## sarllou18

Hi Can anyone explain to me this:  عم بتروحي عند الدكتور؟This is someone asking another whether they have been to the doctor.  As I am not well versed in Shaami dialects would the ya in Bitroohiy indicate 'you'? and if so how does that change when replying e.g 'I have been to the doctor' I thought the article ya indictes 'I' e.g kitaabiy?Thanks in advance


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## ayed

I am not familiar with Shami dialect but the sentence says:
_Are you going to the doctor?_


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## chrysalid

As far as I know, this sentence could mean both "Are you going to the doctor" and "Have you been (going) to the doctor"; "3am" adding the progressive aspect. The "ya" at the end indicates the feminine gender and the prefix "t" is the one indicating 2nd person here, however, keep in mind that "btroo7" could mean both "you are going (masc)" and "she is going".

Now, the "ya" in "kitaabi" is the possesive suffix for 1st person singular while the one in "btroo7i" is the verb affix for feminine 2nd person singular.

I have been... > 3am bkuun


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## WadiH

There are two different ي pronouns: one indicates the 2nd person feminine in verbs (عم بتروحي), and the other indicates the 1st person possessive in nouns (كتابي, "my book").

The reply here would be عم بروح عند الدكتور.


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## sarllou18

Thanks so much for the help.  Iam  just interested  in what the 3am in dialect menas exactly and its equivalent in MSA Fus7a?


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## Mahaodeh

There is no equivalent in MSA, it's sort of a marker indicating something like the continuous (close to the English -ing).


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## shining_star24

sarllou18 said:


> Thanks so much for the help.  Iam  just interested  in what the 3am in dialect menas exactly and its equivalent in MSA Fus7a?



I would say that 3am means ma zelte ما زلت which is similar to our usage of present perfect!


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## elroy

shining_star24 said:


> I would say that 3am means ma zelte ما زلت which is similar to our usage of present perfect!


 I disagree.

3am is not the same as ما زلت, and neither is the same as the present perfect.

I'd be interested in what you base this view on. 


> As far as I know, this sentence could mean both "Are you going to the doctor" and "Have you been (going) to the doctor


 It can only mean "Have you been going to the doctor?".

"Are you going to the doctor?" would be "(inti) raay7a 3ind id-duktoor?"

"Have you been to the doctor?" would be "ru7ti 3ind id-duktoor?".


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## sarllou18

elroy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> 3am is not the same as ما زلت, and neither is the same as the present perfect.
> 
> I'd be interested in what you base this view on.  It can only mean "Have you been going to the doctor?".
> 
> "Are you going to the doctor?" would be "(inti) raay7a 3ind id-duktoor?"
> 
> "Have you been to the doctor?" would be "ru7ti 3ind id-duktoor?".


 Ok so what I gather the  usage of 3a is to indicate the present so for "Are you going to the doctor?" what is the article here that indictes present/future is it Raay7a? sorry I know it seems such a simple question but my knowledge of shaami dialect is limited!


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## elroy

"3am" is normally used to form the present progressive ("to be doing something"), but in this particular context, with this particular verb, the meaning is "have you been going" (present _perfect _progressive).

"Raay7a" is the form of the verb you would use to say "am going."


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## GinBoxer

Thanks for your responses– I realize this is an old thread, but I have a couple questions about this عم particle:

1) Is it inflected for gender? I think that I have heard عمة دور على in Syrian dialect, but it seems sometimes "nonexistent" vowels are pronounced in consonant clusters.

2) If عم usually connotes the present progressive, and رايح is the present participle, how and why would one differentiate between the two forms?  Is the present participle only used idiomatically with certain verbs?

3) In what dialects is this use of عم prevalent?

شكراً لكم


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## clevermizo

GinBoxer said:


> Thanks for your responses– I realize this is an old thread, but I have a couple questions about this عم particle:
> 
> 1) Is it inflected for gender? I think that I have heard عمة دور على in Syrian dialect, but it seems sometimes "nonexistent" vowels are pronounced in consonant clusters.



It is not inflected for gender. You are probably hearing epenthetic vowels.



> 2) If عم usually connotes the present progressive, and رايح is the present participle, how and why would one differentiate between the two forms?



See above. رايح means "is going"  and عم بيروح means "has been going."

In general, participles of verbs of motion/translocation have a progressive meaning, so the constructions with عم have a "have been X-ing" meaning.




> Is the present participle only used idiomatically with certain verbs?



Yes. Please use the Search function to look for previous threads on active participles in dialects as there have been several.



> 3) In what dialects is this use of عم prevalent?
> 
> شكراً لكم



All the main dialects of the Levant that I'm familiar with use it. In Egypt I believe there is a cognate عمّال used in a similar way to denote progressive action, and this may be used in other dialects too.


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## lama

عم is never used when the verb is in the past tense. I can only think of it as an equivalent to:" still", like saying:" are you still doing this?"


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## clevermizo

lama said:


> عم is never used when the verb is in the past tense. I can only think of it as an equivalent to:" still", like saying:" are you still doing this?"



Really? Wouldn't you say that لسّة or بعده/بعدها/بعدك/إلخ is a better equivalent of "still"? I think the best equivalent of عم is just our English "is X-ing" tense - عم (ب)ياكل "He is eating" vs. بياكل "He eats."


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## ayed

I may disagree with Lama.
كانت عم / كان عمis sure existent, signfying "past tense".


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## clevermizo

ayed said:


> I may disagree with Lama.
> كانت عم / كان عمis sure existent, signfying "past tense".



I think Lama means that you can't use عم with الفعل الماضي  - as in you can't say "عم أكلت" or something like that.


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## Muwahid

Does عم mean "Have been x-ing", or simple a present progressive indicator? I guess my confusion is simply 



> It can only mean "Have you been going to the doctor?".



If I said عم بحكي معها - would that mean "I have been talking with her", or "I am talking with her"? I was under the assumption it was only a present progressive indicator (which MSA lacks).


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## Sidjanga

Hi,





clevermizo said:


> See above. رايح means "is going"  and عم بيروح means "has been going."


Does this apply to all Levantine dialects?


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## lama

clevermizo said:


> Really? Wouldn't you say that لسّة or بعده/بعدها/بعدك/إلخ is a better equivalent of "still"? I think the best equivalent of عم is just our English "is X-ing" tense - عم (ب)ياكل "He is eating" vs. بياكل "He eats."






clevermizo said:


> I think Lama means that you can't use عم with الفعل الماضي  - as in you can't say "عم أكلت" or something like that.



yes exactly sorry if i wasn't clear early on.
عم indicates continuity, not a finite action, whether in the past or the present, but the way we grammatically employ it is with a verb in the present tense, always.


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## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> Hi,Does this apply to all Levantine dialects?



More or less, to my knowledge anyway. For example, I would only say وين رايح to someone to ask them at that moment "Where are you going?" not وين عم بتروح. But I might ask them وين عم بتروح هالإيام if I haven't seen them for awhile and have been curious where they've been.


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## Ustaath

عم in our dialect implies the present continuous.  : Are you going (visiting) to (at) the doctor ('s)?
 Implications: you said you we're going to go, so are you going / you have been going in the past, are you still going 
Further examples:
شو عم تعمل ؟ what are you doing
عم ادرس عربي I'm studying Arabic


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## Aydintashar

shining_star24 said:


> I would say that 3am means ma zelte ما زلت which is similar to our usage of present perfect!


I also disagree. Tense and aspect should not be confused. Tense is the time of happening of the event (denoted by the verb), and is confined only to past, present, and future. Aspect is the mode of development of the action in time, for example, whether it happened suddenly or is progressing gradually, did it begin and finish in the past, or continues at present etc. Now, عم is only a grammatical tool to denote the continuous action at present (I am going). I have never seen عم used for a continuous action in the past. مازال is a different aspect, and denotes an action started in the past, and continuing at the present time (I am still going). Most confusions of this kind arises from an intermixing of tense and aspect.


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## clevermizo

Muwahid said:


> If I said عم بحكي معها - would that mean "I have been talking with her", or "I am talking with her"? I was under the assumption it was only a present progressive indicator (which MSA lacks).




No, عم بحكي معها can also mean "I have been talking with her." For example, ما عم بحكي معها هالايام "I haven't been talking with her (much) recently (lit. these days)."

But the basic meaning is present progressive. By the way, this isn't so surprising - the same thing is done in Spanish  . "Hace tiempo que estoy hablando con ella" where "estoy hablando con ella"  in this context doesn't mean "I am talking to her" but rather "I have been talking to her."

In isolated form, عم بحكي معها simply means "I am talking to her" but more context can move that meaning around temporally. For example, شافني عم بحكي معها means "He saw me talking to her."




Aydintashar said:


> I have never seen عم used for a continuous action in the past. مازال is a different aspect, and denotes an action started in the past, and continuing at the present time (I am still going). Most confusions of this kind arises from an intermixing of tense and aspect.



كنت عم تدرس means "You were studying." It's a fairly common construction. But I agree with you that عم doesn't mean the same thing as ما زال.


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## Ustaath

So we can conclude, that by it self عم denotes an action which is still still taking place- ongoing- beginning at a specific point of time ( whether present or sometime in the past-) 

unless 

another word is added that gives it the context of 'past'- such as  كنت

كنت عم أدرس


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