# ein Problem zurückschieben (Mauthner)



## Löwenfrau

I know the spacial meaning of the verb _zurückschieben_: _to push back_. But in this context it is apparently being used in a temporal sense:

"Vielleicht besteht der tierische Körper nicht bloß aus 14 oder sonst einer Zahl der bekannten Elemente; vielleicht setzt er sich außer aus diesen wohlbekannten Elementen auch noch aus bisher unbekannten vitalen, d.h. lebenartig auf Reize wirkenden Elementen zusammen. Die letzten Jahre haben soviele Überraschungen gebracht, haben so viele den Sinnen fast unwahrnehmbare Elemente entdecken lassen, daß ein solcher Gedanke wohl denkbar wäre. Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und das Leben aus dem Vorkommen von »lebenerzeugenden« Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre." 

My first option for a temporal meaning is: _to postpone_; but this makes me a little bit confused, because sounds like the opposite of the original meaning... Is he possibly saying "to push/pull back", "to retreat"?


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> _postpone _


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## perpend

I have difficulty saying "to postpone a problem". Once it's a problem, it's a problem.

I guess you could "put off" a problem, or, "put aside" a problem. From the OP, it seems that Mauthner fears that new developments will bring joy to the materialists, since these "new elements" are being discovered. He seems opposed to that.

What exactly is the "problem", dass zurückgeschoben wird? Das ist mir nicht klar. I may be missing something, as I don't follow all of the threads.


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## Schimmelreiter

_Graham stressed that the problem is only postponed, not solved.

_NYT


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## djweaverbeaver

My thought as well, Perpend.  Below is what I was going to post several hours before I decided not to send it.

"I'm not sure if you're actually looking to translate this into English or if you're just using English as a common language in the forum.  While "to postpone" seems to be the idea here, "_*to postpone a problem*_" sounds rather odd to me in English. If you're an looking for English equivalents, then *to put off/to shelve/to table *(AmE only) *a problem* all sound better.  *To put a problem on ice/on the back burner* would also work as well."


**Edit**Schimmelreiter, just checked out the link, and that _might _be indirect speech.  Either way, I still don't like that sentence much.


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## manfy

perpend said:


> I have difficulty saying "to postpone a problem". Once it's a problem, it's a problem.


Of course, you're right! It's not the problem that's being postponed but its solution.

The German phrase is relatively common and you can read it in a temporal or spatial sense - the outcome is the same: something is being postponed.

temporal: " Der Kandidat ist krank; wir müssen das Interview zurückschieben." Ironically it means that you have to push the interview event forward on the timeline, i.e. postpone.

spatial: "Dieses Problem kann derzeit nicht gelöst werden; wir müssen es zurückschieben (=in den Hintergrund schieben)". So, in your list of problems you have some that are on top (or in 3D space in front) and others that are at the bottom/in the back. So, according to priorities you push some problems back and bring some others forward (of course, the term problem includes its processing and solution or workaround); effective meaning: to postpone something.

--------------
PS: I just read through Schimmelreiter's link and there the phrase is used correctly. It is the actual or predicted occurrence of the problem that was postponed/delayed.
They are talking about a foreseeable problem with their water supply which was actually delayed due to reduced demand during the economic downturn.


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## perpend

I don't know. djweaverbeaver does suggest "to put on the back burner". That would coincide with "in den Hintergrund schieben".

Ich weiß nicht so recht. Sowohl er als auch ich finden "postpone" komisch auf amerikanischem Englisch. Vielleicht wäre es angebracht, wenn welche BrE-Muttersprachler sich melden würden.

*Scenario*: Patient goes to his psychiatrist.
Patient: Doctor, I have a huge problem.
Doctor: What is your problem?
Patient: My wife left me.
Doctor: We'll have to postpone your problem. 

Nee ... sorry, das geht nicht für mich.

P.S. djweaverbeaver, Your PM-mailbox is full.


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## manfy

perpend said:


> Doctor: We'll have to postpone your problem.
> 
> Nee ... sorry, das geht nicht für mich.


Fair enough! That does sound weird when the problem has already occurred and when it is a somewhat permanent one.

Another scenario: My customer has an erratic problem with my machine. It randomly shuts down once or twice a month, hence it causes downtime and the customer wants it fixed.
I might say: We'll have to postpone that *issue* for now - I don't have any engineer available for that timeframe. But in 2 weeks a service visit might be possible.
The term issue is here a synonym for problem but at the same time it's a discussion point, a point of concern, etc., all of which are very receptive to postponement, don't you think?


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## perpend

Für "postpone" kann ich mir verschieben, hinausschieben, sogar aufschieben, aber eben nicht: zurückschieben.

 Just for the sake of discussion, this is from LEO:
http://dict.leo.org/ende/index_de.h...oc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on

to put off
to shelve
to table
to put on the back burner

All of those are good for a problem, as seen in #5.

EDIT: Anders gesagt würde "postpone", was ein Problem betrifft, heißen: Lassen wir einen neuen Termin fürs Problem ausmachen.


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## djweaverbeaver

manfy said:


> Fair enough! That does sound weird when the problem has already occurred and when it is a somewhat permanent one.
> 
> Another scenario: My customer has an erratic problem with my machine. It randomly shuts down once or twice a month, hence it causes downtime and the customer wants it fixed.
> I might say: We'll have to postpone that *issue* for now - I don't have any engineer available for that timeframe. But in 2 weeks a service visit might be possible.
> The term issue is here a synonym for problem but at the same time it's a discussion point, a point of concern, etc., all of which are very receptive to postponement, don't you think?



*Issue *to mean *problem *is actually an American colloquialism, a euphemism of sorts. It's only being around for the last 20 years or so. Many people strongly object to this usage.  Either way, you're not postponing the problem but rather you're postponing dealing/handling it.  The other suggestions we've made actually work perfectly here.


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## Demiurg

perpend said:


> Für "postpone" kann ich mir verschieben, hinausschieben, sogar aufschieben, aber eben nicht: zurückschieben.



Ich finde "zurückschieben" in diesem Zusammenhang auch ungewöhnlich. Üblich sind "zurückstellen" und "aufschieben".


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## Schimmelreiter

I've long suspected Mauthner of "thinking Latin", and here I see another evidence. Rather than say _verschieben_, he says *zurück*_schieben _as a literal rendering of *post*_ponere. _

Please note that _verschieben/zurückschieben/postponere/postpone _are all used metaphorically. Also in German, you can't literally _ver-/zurückschieben_ a problem as such once it's come up but what you can postpone is only your dealing with it. Hence, this metaphorical use is best rendered in a foreign language by a likewise metaphorical use.


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## Hutschi

I think, it is in a (pseudo) spacial meaning. (Du schiebst das Problem eine Stufe zurück.)
It is put back into the set of nonsolved problems - but you think or stated you solved it. 

This is more than just "aufgeschoben" (in this case I want to solve it.)

In a certain sense it becomes also temporal - this is if you want to solve it.

 The problem is moved to "lebenserzeugende Stoffe" - so it is not solved.

In mathematics it is often said that a solution is "zurückgeführt" to a solution of another problem.

In the given context there is the connotation of cheating. This way neither "zurückgeführt" nor "aufgeschoben" have the same meaning.

"Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und das Leben aus dem Vorkommen von »lebenerzeugenden« Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre."

The problem ist moved back (in the sequence of what happened) from "Live"   to "live building material".

Sequence
Stoffe -> lebensbildende Stoffe -> Leben

"Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und* das Leben* aus dem Vorkommen von* »lebenerzeugenden«* Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das *Problem* dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur *zurückgeschoben *wäre."

The problem remains - but a step back.

Maybe "transfered" is a possible translation.

It is like; "Warum leuchted die Sonne?" - "Weil sie lichterzeugende Stoffe enthält."

(See also #10" djweaverbeaver)



> Either way, you're not postponing the problem but rather you're postponing dealing/handling it."


(Can you use this postponing in the sense of transfering the problem?)

PS: It is the way Mauthner described materialism, it is not the current state of materialism.


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## Demiurg

Hutschi said:


> "Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und* das Leben* aus dem Vorkommen von* »lebenerzeugenden«* Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das *Problem* dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur *zurückgeschoben *wäre."
> 
> The problem remains - but a step back.



Guter Einwand! Gemeint ist also nicht "zurückgestellt" (temporal) sondern "nach hinten verlagert" (lokal).


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## manfy

Hutschi's interpretation seems a little bit far-fetched, but not impossible!
But I have following slight problem with it:


> [...]daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre


The solution to a problem has always a temporal aspect and "...dann nicht...sondern nur..." forces this temporal aspect onto "zurückgeschoben" (no matter whether "zurückgeschoben" is initially visualized in a temporal or spatial manner).

I think, perpend asked the right question right at the beginning: What problem are we talking about?
The problem is an academic one: The answer to the question "What makes life? What is the source of life?"
So, it's not the heart attack kind of problem that needs immediate attention but a problem that was unanswered for 3.6billion years (and probably unasked for good 3.599billion of those) - in other words, a "problem" that is effectively postponable (even though it doesn't sound good linguistically).

Getting back to the temporal aspect: If such _»lebenerzeugende« Stoffe_ had been found then it would have been celebrated as a scientific break-through for a while. But realistically, within shortest time the next question would have arisen: What makes _»lebenerzeugende« Stoffe __»lebenerzeugende« Stoffe_? Ergo, the original problem is back on the table which proves that this interim discovery only postponed/delayed/put off the original problem.


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## bearded

For 'zurückgeschoben' I'd suggest _left__ aside for the moment_ or _momentarily left aside._


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I see, it depends on the intonation and stress.

"Dann" can be temporal (then) and it can also mean "in that case".

"Zurückgeschoben" itself is seldom used in temporal meaning. (The posters wrote about the strange wording and proposed more common words for the temporal sense.)

As far as I see Mauthner criticizes the materialists. We should consider this.

Anyway, I see the parallel structure in the two sentences I quoted.

In a temporal sense "aufgeschoben" ( _left aside for the moment or momentarily left aside.)_ sounds much more natural to me. Was there a language change (did it have the more temporal sense in Mauthner's time)?

Zurückschieben makes a temporal sense with implicit "Zurückgeschoben (auf die lange Bank)"=I do not want to investigate it know, but it has much time.

"Zurückgeschoben" is a metaphor, often rplacing a temporal by a spatiam picture, but in some way it is a dead metaphor, so we do not see the spatial metaphor in temporal usage explicitly.

To me it is much more natural in the metaphorical usage as "verlagert"+irony/critic.


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## ABBA Stanza

Just want to add my 2 cents worth ... 

I personally don't see any temporal aspect in the use of the word _zurückschieben_ in the original context at all, so for me it wasn't intended to mean "postpone", "put off", or whatever. I admit that haven't read the whole chapter from Mauthner, but I assume from the bits I've scanned that the problem he's talking about is the age-old problem of how to explain the evolution of life. In this case, to say that life evolves from (unknown) special ("life-producing") elements that differ from the currently known elements only moves (i.e., *pushes back *(= _zurückschieben_")) the understanding of the problem to the next level (of detail), because then one would be left with the problem of explaining what exactly these "life elements" are and how they came into being.

It's a bit like asking where the cosmos came from. Sure, one can argue that it came from the Big Bang, but this (likewise) only pushes back the problem a level, because now one is left with the philosophical argument as to where the Big Bang itself came from. Not so easy. 

Cheers,
Abba


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## Schimmelreiter

If you ask people to complete the statement that something is _nicht gelöst, sondern *nur* [...]_, they will automatically say _aufgeschoben. _The idiomatic completion is temporal, obviously owing to the adverb _nur_. Without that _nur, _it wouldn't be so clearly indicative of a temporal meaning. Mauthner, creating another Mauthnerism, says _zurückgeschoben_ for the same thing, and it literally corresponds to Latin _postponere._ I'm beginning to accept the fact that mine is an isolated opinion.


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## Hutschi

The temporal aspect in my interpretation is a two step one.
Step 1. it is pushed back, as ABBA_Stanza explained.
Step 2. Some will not agree and say the contrary or criticize it. (The second one is only world knowledge, it is not in the words.)

As far as I understand Schimmelreiter considers "aufgeschoben" and "zurückgeschoben" as synonyms.
This is a very different thing because in this case it is neutral and clearly temporal.

Unfortunately I do not understand it applied to Mauthner's sentences. 
There will not be the paralelle structure anymore.


> If you ask people to complete the statement that something is _nicht gelöst, sondern *nur* [...], they will automatically sayaufgeschoben._


 Hre I fully agree. It shows that "zurückgeschoben" is not used by default in this context.


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## manfy

Schimmelreiter said:


> If you ask people to complete the statement that something is _nicht gelöst, sondern *nur* [...]_, they will automatically say _aufgeschoben. _The idiomatic completion is temporal, obviously owing to the adverb _nur_. Without that _nur, _it wouldn't be so clearly indicative of a temporal meaning. Mauthner, creating another Mauthnerism, says _zurückgeschoben_ for the same thing, and it literally corresponds to Latin _postponere._ I'm beginning to accept the fact that mine is an isolated opinion.


You're not alone! 
ABBA's interpretation is basically the same as Hutschi's - and I agree, it is a factually viable interpretation and the logic is sound.
But for me it doesn't solve the linguistic problem that the statement "problem not solved" screams for a temporal contrast (I'm not even certain which one of the words instills this impression).
If Mauthner had said "[...]daß das Problem dann nicht *weitergebracht*, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre ", I'd happily agree with the spatial interpretation (even though, "weitergebracht" has a clear mix of spatial and temporal meaning).



Hutschi said:


> In a temporal sense "aufgeschoben" (_left aside for the moment or momentarily left aside.)_ sounds much more natural to me. Was there a language change (did it have the more temporal sense in Mauthner's time)?


I think, it's not so much a question of Mauthner's time but Mauthner's place. He was a Czech and did grow up during the high times of the K&K empire, hence his language was definitely influenced by the eastern Austrian version of German.
Having grown up there a hundred years later, I still have a hard time seeing a semantic, analytic difference between zurückstellen and zurücksschieben, even though I agree with Demiurg that "zurückstellen" is the more formal word used for 'to delay/postpone'. There is simply no logical reason why zurücksschieben should only be used in spatial sense when aufschieben/verschieben have a predominantly temporal sense when the related subject/object allows it!

Schimmelreiter argues with analogy to Latin. I can't really comment on that without Latin knowledge, but it does seem logical since Latin was still mandatory in those days in universities...at least for Philosophy and Linguistics, I guess!


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## Löwenfrau

djb: 





> "I'm not sure if you're actually looking to translate this into English  or if you're just using English as a common language in the forum .



The equivalent of "postpone" in Portuguese fits very well the context and the specific phrase.


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## Löwenfrau

manfy: 





> Of course, you're right! It's not the problem that's being postponed but its solution.



Why!? Both things are being postponed: you postpone the problem, you postpone _facing it_, _having to deal with it_. And, _because of that_, you postpone the solution.


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## Löwenfrau

perpend said:


> I don't know. djweaverbeaver does suggest "to put on the back burner". That would coincide with "in den Hintergrund schieben".
> 
> Ich weiß nicht so recht. Sowohl er als auch ich finden "postpone" komisch auf amerikanischem Englisch. Vielleicht wäre es angebracht, wenn welche BrE-Muttersprachler sich melden würden.
> 
> *Scenario*: Patient goes to his psychiatrist.
> Patient: Doctor, I have a huge problem.
> Doctor: What is your problem?
> Patient: My wife left me.
> Doctor: We'll have to postpone your problem.
> 
> Nee ... sorry, das geht nicht für mich.
> 
> P.S. djweaverbeaver, Your PM-mailbox is full.



That's true, but see, this example is quite off topic. When a man has been abandoned by his wife, he can't solve it (it doesn't depend on him to have her back) and, being _emotional_, he can't simply postpone it. But imagine now an enterprise, managers have two problems to solve out, problem 1  is easy and urgent, problem 2 is hard but can wait. Couldn't you say "let's postpone problem 2"?


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## bearded

Actually, the correct translation of Latin 'postponere' would be 'nachstellen' as the preposition 'post' not only means back/behind, but above all ''after''.
Post mortem = after death/nach dem Tod..
My suggestion ''leave aside for the moment'' corresponds to ''let us think of it later on''.  If 'postpone' is suitable in Portuguese, the meaning is the same. To be more exact, in this case, one should say ''postpone the solution of / postpone dealing with the problem.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> If you ask people to complete the statement that something is _nicht gelöst, sondern *nur* [...]_, they will automatically say _aufgeschoben. _The idiomatic completion is temporal, obviously owing to the adverb _nur_. Without that _nur, _it wouldn't be so clearly indicative of a temporal meaning. Mauthner, creating another Mauthnerism, says _zurückgeschoben_ for the same thing, and it literally corresponds to Latin _postponere._ I'm beginning to accept the fact that mine is an isolated opinion.



Nope, that's my opinion too, SR. 
But now I'm starting to think that Mauthner was very much aware of his ambiguous use, and maybe we should ask ourselves: didn't he mean both things? They are indeed not opposed to each other, they can rather complete one another...

EDIT: I mean by both things: to postpone the problem (temporal) _and _to transfer the problem (Hutschi's) or to push it back (ABBA Stanza's)


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> Couldn't you say "let's postpone problem 2"?


Of course you can. There are Google hits galore. The same argument that's used against it in English can be used against it in German. That's what I call a good translation.


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> manfy:
> 
> Why!? Both things are being postponed: you postpone the problem, you postpone _facing it_, _having to deal with it_. And, _because of that_, you postpone the solution.


Well, if you look at it literally then it is nonsensical to say "We postpone the problem" after the actual problem has occurred. And that's how the English language looks at it.
In German, we don't use the phrase that literally (normally!). It depends on the type of problem.
If "the problem" were a heart attack then the statement "We postpone the problem." would be equally nonsensical as in English.
BUT (as in our case)
If "the problem" is just a question like "What is the source of live?" without any immediate urgency then "the problem" is understood as the problem of dealing with/solving "the problem" and as such it's perfectly normal to delay/postpone it.

For once it seems the German language is less pedantic than the English one!


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## Schimmelreiter

The ultimate source of Great-grandpa's German: 
_
unsere reise ist zurückgeschoben worden_

DWB

I was wrong. In Mauthner's time, there must have been some more people that talked like him.


PS
Isn't it clearly temporal with _Reise_? And, please, don't say it means our trip was classified as less important in a non-temporal sense.


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## djweaverbeaver

Löwenfrau said:


> manfy:
> 
> Why!? Both things are being postponed: you postpone the problem, you postpone _facing it_, _having to deal with it_. And, _because of that_, you postpone the solution.



Wrong!  If you discover that you have a problem, you cannot postpone it because it already exists!  You can only postpone facing it or death with it.



Schimmelreiter said:


> Löwenfrau said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't you say "let's postpone problem   2"?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can. There are Google hits galore. The same argument  that's used against it in English can be used against it in German.  That's what I call a good translation.
Click to expand...

The only way that I might allow for this is if, for instance, you're in a math class working through a problem set and the teacher/professor wants to skip the problem for the time being.  Nevertheless, I maintain that there are much better options.

Furthermore, just because there are Google searches for something doesn't mean that it's correct.  I could pull up for you "Google hits galore" in which people are misusing the word "peruse" to mean to skim a book or document when the correct meaning is actually to read or examine it closely and in great detail.

The other native speaker(s) and I are only trying to give you advice on the best uses of our language.  What you decide to do with it is up to you.


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## Schimmelreiter

djweaverbeaver said:


> The other native speaker(s) and I are only trying to give you advice on the best uses of our language. What you decide to do with it is up to you.


Point taken. 

But what if Mauthner is using _ein Problem zurückschieben_ in a temporal sense, as I think he is, and truly good English, as I have no reason to doubt and Google hits indeed can't disprove, doesn't allow for _postpone a problem_? Would you sacrifice the author's intent on the altar of the target language you are translating into? Especially when the German collocation is similarly weird? Isn't a weird-sounding English sentence the perfect translation of a weird-sounding German sentence?


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## Hutschi

The problem of temporal interpretation.

Mauthner makes polemic against the materialism view.
He supposes that materialism thinks to have solved the problem.
So for materialism it is solved.

But of course it isn't.
Mauthner said, it is not solved but pnged back to another problem.
And here overall it becomes temporal.

The verb "zurückschieben" is temporal in the sense that it is a handling.
But "zurückgeschoben" is a status.

---


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## Löwenfrau

> Wrong! If you discover that you have a problem, you cannot postpone it because it already exists! You can only postpone facing it or death with it.



I believe someone (s) has said that before me here, but I'd like to stress it a bit more: ok, I admit that philosophically, logically, literally, you can't postpone a problem, only your facing it. BUT: in colloquial language - now I'm talking about the target language, which is Portuguese - the expression is: _adiar/ protelar/ postergar o problema _(_to postpone the problem_), meaning: adiar/ protelar/ postergar a confrontação com o problema (_to postpone facing the problem)_. We do NOT use the expression _postpone facing the problem_, even if  it's the correct one from the logical point of view. For what I understood, that's not the case in English. I can't say a word against that because I'm not a native. But you understand that this is not my original concern? If we agree that the point is "to postpone facing the problem", then we are good!


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## Schimmelreiter

We need to consider that M. is using the *stative* passive voice:





Löwenfrau said:


> daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre.


_wäre _rather than _würde_! Isn't this posing an extra problem in both English and Portuguese? I don't know a bit of the latter but I suspect it's tricky in English.

PS
Dear native English speakers, what about _defer_? A _deferred problem_? The Latin wouldn't mean _push back_ but _​__carry __down _ but my question is about idiomaticity in English.

PPS
As for stativeness, perhaps:
_... that the problem wouldn't *have been* solved then but only postponed/deferred._


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## Hutschi

I see the problem, that all examples of temporal meaning use other context  than Mauthner's in our discussion.
If we go back to Mauthner's original text it is not so clear at all.
The Duden gives not one example with temporal meaning: http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/zurueckschieben
But this is no reason to say it is impossible. I think the context blocks it.


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## Löwenfrau

Hutschi, why do you think the context blocks the temporal meaning? I understand that you're not inclined to this interpretation, but I don't understand why you consider it impossible.


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## manfy

Hutschi said:


> The Duden gives not one example with temporal meaning: http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/zurueckschieben
> But this is no reason to say it is impossible.


I was surprised, too, when I saw that yesterday.
But if you look at zurückstellen, you read similar definitions but also:_6. a. zunächst nicht machen, ausführen, behandeln; aufschieben
__b. vorerst nicht geltend machen, nicht darauf bestehen, um Wichtigeres, Vordringlicheres nicht zu beeinträchtigen

_​Personally, I do see zurückstellen and zurückschieben as synonymous when the context allows temporal interpretation. (Rechtfertigung: die Standardsprache _stellt_ halt lieber und in Ostösterreich _schieben_ wir lieber.  )
Außerdem, von Sprachlogik her betrachtet: Wenn ein geplantes Ereignis auf*geschoben* oder ver*schoben* werden kann, dann liegt es auf der Hand, dass auch eine genauere Spezifizierung dieses Vorgangs sprachlich möglich und erlaubt sein muss, d.h. dasselbe Ereignis kann auch zurück*geschoben* oder nach vorne *gezogen* werden!

Additionally I'd say, that English uses the spatial/temporal aspects of these words in the very same way as German does:
"We have to *push* this meeting* back *by 2 hours because my customer is stuck in traffic and they'll arrive at least one hour late."

Literally, _push back_ has a clear spatial meaning but within this context every normal person would interpret it correctly as temporal.
It goes without saying that alternative words are available (postpone, delay, defer,...), but that's a matter of style! Same is true for German.


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## perpend

manfy said:


> Additionally I'd say, that English uses the spatial/temporal aspects of these words in the very same way as German does:
> "We have to *push* this meeting* back *by 2 hours because my customer is stuck in traffic and they'll arrive at least one hour late."
> 
> Literally, _push back_ has a clear spatial meaning but within this context every normal person would interpret it correctly as temporal.
> It goes without saying that alternative words are available (postpone, delay, defer,...), but that's a matter of style! Same is true for German.



But a meeting is different than a problem, and the problem is that the "problem" is about the essence of life, if I understand correctly.

I guess you could push Mauthner's problem back 100 years ... hmmm. "to push back" sounds odd to me.

I take SR's point that if "zurückschieben" and "postpone" are equally ambiguous, and everyone's happy, LF in particular, then what the hay!  Treffer!


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## Hutschi

Why I think that the direct temporal meaning is blocked;





> "... Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und das Leben aus dem Vorkommen von »lebenerzeugenden« Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben.



We have two statements. The first is about materialists. In Mauthner's polemic they think that they solved the problem. So there is no additional time.
If the polemic goes to that there was no goal to solve it (in case, the goal is to solve it - it may be temporal) but Mauthner's goal was to show that the problem was not solved at all. (no time here). 
In a second step it may have implicitely time, because an unsolved problem needs to be solved.
If we mix up these last parts there is temporal statement included, of course.

---
My duden program did not show 6, but I found only until 4. I see it is shortened. But I wrote, that this does not mean that the meaning does not exist.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> The ultimate source of Great-grandpa's German:
> _
> unsere reise ist zurückgeschoben worden_
> 
> DWB
> 
> I was wrong. In Mauthner's time, there must have been some more people that talked like him.
> 
> 
> PS
> Isn't it clearly temporal with _Reise_? And, please, don't say it means our trip was classified as less important in a non-temporal sense.



I'm glad hearing that!


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## Löwenfrau

Guys, there are so many posts here that I'm not sure if any of you have seen this:

"...Dann würden die Materialisten sicherlich triumphieren und das Leben aus dem Vorkommen von »lebenerzeugenden« Stoffen erklären. Ich brauche wohl nicht erst zu sagen, daß das Problem dann nicht gelöst, sondern nur zurückgeschoben wäre. Die Wissenschaft stünde vor der alten Aufgabe, auszusprechen, wodurch sich die neuen Lebenselemente von den lieben alten Elementen unterscheiden."

This could be read in a temporal sense:

"[If we do that today - use life elements to explain life - then] the problem would persist tomorrow, because then we would be facing the same old challenge of declaring the difference between the new living elements from the old elements".

Now, I think no one has listen when I suggested that Mauthner could be aware of the ambiguity of "zurückschieben" and that he could have intended both meanings. Besides, in the end, it seems to me that if he intended the spacial meaning in the first place, the temporal meaning arises as a consequence, and vice versa, if he intended the temporal meaning in the first place, by all he was saying, the spacial sense is also implicit.

Does anyone agree with that?


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## Hutschi

Hi,
I agree in following sense:


> if he intended the spacial meaning in the first place, the temporal meaning arises as a consequence,



It will arise because the problem is not solved, even if the materialists considered it as solved.





> if he intended the temporal meaning in the first place, by all he was saying, the spacial sense is also implicit.



Here the spacial meaning is implicit that the problem is brought back to all.  (in a metaphorical sense)


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> Does anyone agree with that?


I'd say, everybody does .... more or less...in the end. 
Aside from the minor differences in language use between German and English pertaining to idiomatic expression and aside from the different thought processes from one person to the next, everybody would have to agree that the final outcome, i.e. Die Wissenschaft stünde vor der alten Aufgabe [...], has a temporal relation to the relevant preceding statements. 

The way it is written, I'd say, the conclusion itself is more important than how you get there, be it via spatial or temporal explanation.


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## Löwenfrau

I should have posted that conclusion from the beginning...


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