# ボブは妹にプレゼントをあげた



## Pacerier

hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
(1) ボブは妹にプレゼントを上げた
(2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた

also, i came across this sentence soemwhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
From what i know, this sentence means “friend gave me favour of teaching me”. How do i modify it along the lines of “friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)”. 

and is it true that もらう is not used when the giver is me? however what if i were to say friend received something from me, if so can i use もらう?
(on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)


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## Aoyama

*ageru *originally means _to raise_, it means also _to give_ , from bottom to top
*itadaku *means _to receive_ (respectfully), from top to bottom
*morau* means _to receive_, on an equal footing (horizontally) no politeness involved
*kureru *means _to give/to get_, on an equal footing (horizontally) no politeness involved
*yaru *same as *kureru *


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## YangMuye

Pacerier said:


> hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
> (1) ボブは妹にプレゼントを上げた
> (2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた
> 
> also, i came across this sentence soemwhere: 友達が私に教えてくれた。
> From what i know, this sentence means “friend gave me favour of teaching me”. How do i modify it along the lines of “friend gave my father favour of teaching me (i mean something like the friend still teaches me, but the favour is not for me, its for my father)”.
> 
> and is it true that もらう is not used when the giver is me? however what if i were to say friend received something from me, if so can i use もらう?
> (on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)


あげる　もらう are the same as Chinese 給 收.
One exception: When you want to express the Chinese 帶給/帶來, you have to use くれる.
e.g.
You are in the office and ask your workmate to get something here, you should use くれる, even though the receiver is not involved.
If someone gives something to your family member, you can also use くれる.
You are telling your friend someone else will give him something, you can also use くれる, although the receiver is not yourself.
If the receiver is yourself you MUST use くれる.

besides the grammar constraints, the mood of くれる　もらう　あげる is different.
If you use くれる, you are talking about the giver, maybe his behavior was important? unexpected? benefited you? Usually in a thankful tongue.
When you use あげる and the subject is yourself, from the receiver's point of view, he should also realize your favor.
もらう, when the subject is yourself, also in a thankful tongue. But it's from the receiver's point of view, he is glad to have received something as expected/ to have received the permission...
もらう a little emphasize on the result your finally get want you expected while くれる a little emphasize the favor that someone will do something for you.

when the subject and object of あげる/もらう is not yourself, it's simply give/receive.


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## Pacerier

heys thanks for the replies. anyways i've got a few misunderstandings i would like to clarify. i was wondering does te-kureru give the "he's helping me out / he's doing me a favour" implication? if it doesn't, i was wondering what's the main difference between these 2 sentences:
(1) 私に教えてくれた (he taught me?)
(2) 私に教えた (he taught me?)

also does the te-morau give the "i had him do this for me / i made him do this for me" feeling? what may be the difference between these 2 sentences:
[私は]ボブに教えてもらった (i made Bob teach me?)
[私は]ボブに教えさせる(i made Bob teach me?)


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## YangMuye

私に教えてくれた (he taught me + he did this for me => I will thank him)
私に教えた (he taught me => the thing happened)

[私は]ボブに教えてもらった(Bob taught me + I got his teaching me => I will thank him) I think てもらう does not need to imply "i had him do this for me / i made him do this for me". But it may be derived from the context.
[私は]ボブに教えさせる(I will let Bob teach me???)

That's the all I know. For the subtle difference of nuance, we'd better wait for the comments from native speakers.


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## Aoyama

Or also :
私に教えてくれた (he taught me + he did this for me => I will thank him)
_he was kind enough to teach me (I appreciate it)_
私に教えた (he taught me => the thing happened)
_he (just) taugh me, it's a fact_
[私は]ボブに教えてもらった(Bob taught me + I got him teaching me => I will thank him)
くれる and もらう are on the same "polite level" of something "received" as a _favor_ .
The _te_- form is because there are two verbs involved here : oshie_*te*_kureta, mise*te*moratta ...


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## Rallino

Pacerier said:


> (on a side note, is it ok if we use the kanji 貰う for もらう)



I'm also wondering about this, could you guys give us an answer for that pretty please? =)


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## Ototsan

Rallino said:


> I'm also wondering about this, could you guys give us an answer for that pretty please? =)



The general rule is that you don't usually use kanji if the verb is used as an auxiliary:

本をもらう / 貰う　but 教えてもらう

This is also true for other verbs:

走ってくる, 掛けておく, 食べてみる, ...


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## Aoyama

> The general rule is that you don't usually use kanji if the verb is used as an *auxiliary*:
> 
> 本をもらう / 貰う　but 教えてもらう
> 
> This is also true for other verbs:
> 
> 走ってくる, 掛けておく, 食べてみる, ...


absolutely.


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## Rallino

Ototsan, thank you very much for this valuable information!


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## Pacerier

heys thanks for the replies guys. anyway does this sentence [私は]ボブに教えさせる sound as if Bob is my slave?

also will  [私は]ボブに教えさせる both mean "I made Bob teach me" and "I allowed Bob to teach me?"


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## Ototsan

Pacerier said:


> heys thanks for the replies guys. anyway does this sentence [私は]ボブに教えさせる sound as if Bob is my slave?
> 
> also will  [私は]ボブに教えさせる both mean "I made Bob teach me" and "I allowed Bob to teach me?"



Yes, I think you are right in outline. In detail, I would point out that Bob may either teach 'me' or someone else in either sentence.


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## Pacerier

heys ok thanks for the clarification =)


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## Pacerier

ah, i've got another problem again. How do we say I gave myself something / Bob gave himself something. 

私は自分に[X]を上げった　or　私は自分に[X]をくれった?
(btw is 私は私に.. acceptable in the above line?)

ボブは自分に[X]を上げった　or　ボブは自分に[X]をくれった?
(btw is ボブはボブに.. acceptable in the above line?)


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## Flaminius

Pacerier said:


> ah, i've got another problem again. How do we say I gave myself something / Bob gave himself something.


It's not a very common construction in Japanese.  In order to say logically the same, "take" fits the bill most of the time.




> 私は自分に[X]を上げった　or　私は自分に[X]をくれった?
> (btw is 私は私に.. acceptable in the above line?)
> 
> ボブは自分に[X]を上げった　or　ボブは自分に[X]をくれった?
> (btw is ボブはボブに.. acceptable in the above line?)


Note in passing that the proper past forms of あげる and くれる are;
あげた, くれた.


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## Wishfull

Pacerier said:


> hi all, i was having a bit of problem with the words 上げる / くれる. i was wondering if its acceptable to use 上げる when someone gives something to my family member, or must it be in くれる? e.g:
> (1) ボブは妹にプレゼントをあげた
> ＝ボブはボブの妹にプレゼントをあげた
> 
> (2) ボブは妹にプレゼントをくれた
> ＝ボブは私の妹にプレゼントをくれた



When someone gave me (or me-equivalent-person**) a present, "くれた" is the correct word.
When I (or I-equivalent-person**) give someone a present, "あげた" is the correct word.
When someone gave somebody else a present, "あげた" is the correct word.

**me-equivalent-person would be; my family members, my co-workers of my office. It depends on the context.
In other words, "we" is I and I-equivalent-person.

So if Bob and I are very close friends, and might be living together, and if "my sister" lives far away and I've seldom met her,
ボブは私の妹にプレゼントをあげた might be correct, in this context.


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## Pacerier

> It's not a very common construction in Japanese.  In order to say  logically the same, "take" fits the bill most of the time.



heys sry i don't really understand this. does it mean that 私は自分に[X]を上げた is acceptable?


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## Flaminius

Pacerier said:


> heys*?* *Sorry I* don't really understand this. *D*oes it mean that 私は自分に[X]を上げた is acceptable?


Well....., if you really have to say,  私は自分に[X]をあげた (since _ageru_ here does not literally mean "to raise X", 上 should be spelt out in hiragana) is okay.  But in many cases, using "take" is more natural.

E.g., for "I gave myself vacations", I'd say:
私は休暇をとった。


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## Aoyama

> 私は休暇をとった。


 which ends up more meaning "I took some vacations/time off". 
Probably a wording like "I gave myself [some time to think, some time off ...] is impossible in Japanese ...


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## Wishfull

Aoyama said:


> Probably a wording like "I gave myself [some time to think, some time off ...] is impossible in Japanese ...



Hi.
I don't think so.
If someone gives himself/herself, あげる　is better than くれる.

If you enter "自分にご褒美をあげる" at Google, you can hit many web sites, including;
http://www.hapilabo.com/main/post_402.html


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## Aoyama

> "自分にご褒美をあげる"


right, this would mean : "to praise oneself", but I wonder if this is not translated from English ...


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## Wishfull

Aoyama said:


> right, this would mean : "to praise oneself", but I wonder if this is not translated from English ...



Exactly!
I too wonder if it is 翻訳体　or 翻訳口調.............
People before Meiji era would not have spoken in such a manner, I believe.


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## Aoyama

Then we go back to what I said :
Probably a wording like "I gave myself [some time to think, some time off ...] is impossible in _pure_ Japanese ...


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## Ototsan

Aoyama said:


> Then we go back to what I said :
> Probably a wording like "I gave myself [some time to think, some time off ...] is impossible in _pure_ Japanese ...



As an exception, some people may say at the end of the year:

今年一年，一生懸命働いた私に (or 自分に) ご褒美をあげようと思う

Strangely this sentence is accepｔａｂｌｅ to me. Don't ask me why. I am simply reporting the fact


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## Aoyama

_I would like to congratulate myself for having worked so hard this (past) year._
But once again, I still think this kind of wording is influenced by English, or, as Wishfull puts it 





> it is 翻訳体　or 翻訳口調


...


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