# Garden, gardener



## ThomasK

What are your translations for that? 

 Dutch: _*tuin, tuinier (tuinman) *(_related with the English 'town', because they have a fence in common) 
 There is also -*gaard i*n compounds such as _boomgaard _(orchyard), _wijngaard _(vineyard) but you can't use it separately; the person was de _wijngaardenier_, but none of the others led to derivations referring to persons; now it sound very Biblical, whereas we'd now call them _wijnbouwers_, wine growers ...
 There used to be something like *hof *as well, but now that is mainly dialectal. The person doing the work there was the _hovenier_. -- It can be the equivalent of _court _in English,_ la cour _in French. They all refer to an enclosed space, either a house or a garden (_court _= _com+ hort_, yard), but the origin of _hof _is not quite clear, so I read... 

Fr.: *jardin, jardinier

*As for the background of my question: a Frenchspeaking interview referred to monks as the_ jardiniers de l'humanité_, but I find no good equivalent, because none of our words seems to have that positive connotation: the words refer to hobbies, to maintenance, but not really to the 'productive' (and in that sense existential or sacred) role they played.


----------



## Codinome Shlomo

Portuguese:
*garden* → jardim
*gardener* → jardineiro


----------



## ThomasK

You seem to have_ corte (do rei) _ as well. But I guess there is no link at all with a garden in Portuguese, except etymologically... As for the meaning of the word jardineiro: can you use it metaphorically, or does it only refer to a hobby, or to maintenance?


----------



## arielipi

Hebrew:
garden - גינה, גן gina, gan
gardener - גנן ganan (male)


----------



## ThomasK

I just checked and found out that it may have the connotation of a park or maybe playground. (We do have _speeltuin_, lit. playing garden (?), but no association with a park.)


----------



## Codinome Shlomo

ThomasK said:


> You seem to have_ corte (do rei) _ as well. But I guess there is no link at all with a garden in Portuguese, except etymologically... As for the meaning of the word jardineiro: can you use it metaphorically, or does it only refer to a hobby, or to maintenance?



It is possible to use any word metaphorically, isn't it?  It is something like "cultism" in Baroque, in which authors use words not because of their meaning, but because of what they transmit to us. It is "flowery"; is poetic.

"Jardineiros da humanidade" would be used in a flowery language. Nobody would use it in a /normal/ daily conversation, else an explanation would be needed.


----------



## ThomasK

You're right, I suppose, but I mainly meant: _tuinier _does not get that lofty meaning of someone who sees to the garden, or nature, and thereby protects and produces... Indeed, it is not that flowery (what a nice metaphor in this context !)...


----------



## Stoggler

Welsh
garden - *gardd* (feminine - with definite article, it becomes *yr ardd*)
gardener - *garddwr* (masculine - with definite article it becomes *y garddwr*)

Scottish Gaelic
garden - *lios*
gardener - *gàirnealair*


----------



## ThomasK

Could you comment on the Scottish words, especially on *gàirnealair? *Is it something like garden-holder/ hold-garden, or something the like?


----------



## ahmedcowon

In Arabic:

The standard word for garden is *حديقة /ħadeeqa/* (The plural is حدائق /ħadaa'eq/) from the root حدق ħ-d-q (to stare, to gaze). The standard word for gardener is *بستاني /bustaani/* which literally means "orchardist" (_bustaan_ is a loanword from Persian)

There's also the word *روضة /rawdha/* (The plural is رياض /riyadh/) for garden but this word is mostly used to mean "Kindergarten"

Another word used in spoken Arabic is *جنينة /junayna/* which means "small heaven". The plural is جنائن /janaa'en/ and the word for gardener is *جنائني /janaa'eni/*

In Egyptian Arabic, garden is *جنينة /geneena/* and gardener is *جنايني /ganayni/*


----------



## ThomasK

Small heaven is an intriguing word.(I suppose those _janaa'eni_ ought to pay for working in it)... But what could be the origin? The serail???
 I suppose the latter words are directly related with the Hebrew words. 

As for h_adeeqa:_ is that because gardens here are meant for walking ? 

--- Which of those could be used to trans tlate 'gardener/ jardinier de l'humanité/ of mankind' then, and why not the others? Do you use any of those in city names, or village names?


----------



## apmoy70

In Greek:

Garden: *«Κήπος»* ['cipos] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«κῆπος» kêpŏs* --> _plantation, garden, orchard_ (PIE *keh₂p-, _enclosure_ cf OHG huoba, _plot of land_ > Dt. hoeve, _farm_; Alb. kopshtë, _garden_).
Kitchen garden: *«Περιβόλι»* [peri'voli] (neut.) < Byz. Gr. neut. noun *«περιβόλιον» perib**ó**lion* --> _small orchard_ < Classical Gr. fem. noun *«περίβολος» pĕríbŏlŏs* --> _area enclosed, enclosure_ < compound, prefix, adv. & preposition *«περὶ» pĕrì* --> _about, around_ (PIE base *per-, _through, across, beyond_) + Classical v. *«βάλλω» bállō* --> _to throw, hit_ (PIE *gʷelh₁-, _to hit by throwing_).
Orchard: *«Οπωρώνας»* [opo'ronas] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ὀπωρών» ŏpōrṓn* --> _land/enclosure devoted to the cultivation of fruit trees_ < Classical fem. noun *«ὀπώρᾱ» ŏpṓrā* --> lit. _end of summer, harvest-time_, metaph. _seasonal fruit_ (PIE *h₁opi-, _at, on_ + *h₁os-r-(n), _harvest-time_ cf Rus. осень, _autumn_, OHG arnōt, _harvest time_ > Ger. Ernte). 
Olive garden: *«Ελαιώνας»* [ele'onas] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ἐλαιών» ĕlaiṓn* --> _land/enclosure devoted to the cultivation of olive trees_ < Classical fem. noun *«ἐλαίᾱ» ĕlaíā* --> _olive, olive tree_ (with obscure etymology possibly pre-Greek).
Vinery: *«Αμπελώνας»* [ambe'lonas] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ἀμπελών» ămpĕlṓn* --> _land/enclosure devoted to the cultivation of grapes_ < Classical fem. noun *«ἄμπελος» ámpĕlŏs* --> _grape-vine_ (with obscure etymology).     

Gardener: *«Κηπουρός»* [cipu'ros] (masc. & fem.) < Classical masc. & fem. noun *«κηπωρός» kēpōrós* (Attic *«κηπουρός» kēpourós*) < compound, masc. noun *«κῆπος» kêpŏs* (see above) + verb *«ὁράω/ὁρῶ» hŏráō (uncontracted)/ hŏrô (contracted)* --> _to look, see_ (PIE *uer-, _to observe, note_ cf Proto-Germanic *waraz > Ger. gewahr, Eng. wary). *«Κηπουρός»* [cipu'ros] (masc. & fem.) is lit. the "garden-watcher".
Kitchen gardener: *«Περιβολάρης»* [perivo'laris] (masc.), *«περιβολάρισσα»* [perivo'larisa] (fem.).

Also:
Rustic and colloquial *«μπαξές»* [ba'kses] (masc.) --> _kitchen garden_ < Turkish bahçe.
*«Μπαξεβάνης»* [bakse'vanis] (masc.) --> _kitchen gardener_ < Turkish bahçıvan.
Both considered obsolete nowadays. *«Μπαξεβάνης»* [bakse'vanis] is a common male Greek surname.


----------



## learnerr

Unusually easy in Russian.
garden – сад;
gardener – садовник.
The first word is a simple root that seems to mean exactly that – a place with many plants inside, – and nothing else. The second word literally means a person that is somehow connected with gardens and belongs to them, but is understood to mean more narrowly a garden-keeper: a person who takes care of the plants.


ThomasK said:


> As for the background of my question: a Frenchspeaking interview referred to monks as the_ jardiniers de l'humanité_, but I find no good equivalent, because none of our words seems to have that positive connotation: the words refer to hobbies, to maintenance, but not really to the 'productive' (and in that sense existential or sacred) role they played.


Not sure what he meant... As far as I know, monks have little influence on other people, so he might mean that monks are the chosen ones among others in some sense?


----------



## ThomasK

@ Learnerr: well, he did mean that they provide spiritual food and tend to the garden of humanity... But could you transcribe the words? (Sad, sadonik ??? Sorry)
@Apmoy: do any of those words refer to history? I mean, like the Garden of Eden, the king's court, or any ? 

Thanks !


----------



## learnerr

ThomasK said:


> @ Learnerr: well, he did mean that they provide spiritual food and tend to the garden of humanity... But could you transcribe the words? (Sad, sadonik ??? Sorry)


They transcribe unusually easy, too: _sad _and _sadovnik_. I don't know how to translate the monk's thought, since in Russian both gardeners and gardens are not commonly thought to produce anything, and I still am not sure I understand him well. At least, producing something is not likely to be thought their primary function. I don't know, did he mean _humanity _in the sense of _qualities proper to good humans_?


----------



## bibax

Czech:

*zahrada* (= garden) ... also zoological, botanical, winter ...; zahrada Eden;
*zahradník* (= gardener), suffix -ník (the same like in Russian -ник);

The root *-hrad-* seems to be related to hrad (= castle), ohrada (= fence, corral, enclosure), přehrada (= dam), etc.

*sad* = orchard (devoted only to the cultivation of fruit or nut trees);
*sadař* = fruit grower;

*Sadař* is commonly used in the Bible. _(God, Jesus, etc. is the Fruit Grower)

_


----------



## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @Apmoy: do any of those words refer to history? I mean, like the Garden of Eden, the king's court, or any ? Thanks !


Garden of Eden: *«Κήπος της Εδέμ»* ['cipos tis e'ðem]
The (king's) court is *«αυλή»* [a'vli] (fem.) < Classical fem. noun *«αὐλὴ» aulḕ* --> _court, courtyard_ (PIE *h₂eu-, _to spend the night_ cf Eng. weary). *«Αὐλὴ»* was lit. the place were officials or servants in the permanent employ of the ruler, spent the night.


----------



## learnerr

learnerr said:


> The first word is a simple root that seems to mean exactly that – a place with many plants inside, – and nothing else.


A partial mistake, sorry. The word is actually the same root as in the verb "сажать", which means "to make sit", and in the context of planting "to put in earth". Still, the word "сад" indeed appears very uniform in meaning, I mean without widely employed metaphoric uses (the same word appears in the phrase "детский сад", which means a kindergarten, but that's a separate matter).


----------



## ThomasK

I find it very interesting that Christ is called the Fruit Grower. I can imagine two possibilities, but depending on the places you are referring to: a parable with a Vineyard, and a scene after the resurrection (in Dutch _tuinier_, gardener). Could you tell us whether you are referring to one of those, or to another? 

@Learnerr: humanité as I understand it, refers to mankind, I'd say; monks are providers of spiritual food...


----------



## ancalimon

Turkish word for garden is listed as being a loan from Persian. But I don't accept this.

bahçe : garden
bahçıvan: gardener

I think the root of bahçe is "bağ" which means "looked after place", "vineyard". I also think it's related with the following Turkic words

balıq : city
bağlı: bound, devoted, dependent, obedient, allegiance
bağ: to connect, to tie, 
bak: to look, to look after, to attend, to improve

I also have a very controversial theory that the pagans in Europe were Tengriist people and the word was Turkic (but nothing to do with religion as in pagan religions) and they were called that way because they were rural people whose leaders built city states and castles after they were given sanctuary in Europe. And I think their history is intertwined with the history of Christianity.


----------



## learnerr

ThomasK said:


> @Learnerr: humanité as I understand it, refers to mankind, I'd say; monks are providers of spiritual food...


I felt lost and went there. And I have two notes to share:
1. _Terrain généralement clos, attenant ou non à une habitation, planté de végétaux 1) utiles ou 2) d'agrément_: in Russian, we differentiate. The second is indeed called "сад". But the first may be rather "огород": in "огород" you plant something that you're going to eat. For example, _"jeter une pierre dans le jardin de qqn"_ is translated "бросить камень в чей-нибудь огород". The term is rather rustic. The word is similar in form to the Czech word _zahrada_.
2. Perhaps, the monk had in mind the meaning D. "The abstract places in humanity that attract souls because of their (the places') spiritual merits". In such case, the thought is difficult to translate, and the translation depends on details. Something like "духовные сады человечества" ("spiritual gardens of humanity") sounds bad to me, because it's much more pompous and less in line with traditions of word use than in French.


----------



## ThomasK

Interesting, Ancalimon, but what is the link between Tengriism and cities, states, castles: the concept of garden and town, which are both enclosures???

@Learnerr: wow, very interesting explanation indeed. And you might be right about D. To me D is some kind of metaphorical interpretation of the fertility and beauty offered by gardens in general (both vegetable gardens and parks).


----------



## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> Interesting, Ancalimon, but what is the link between Tengriism and cities, states, castles: the concept of garden and town, which are both enclosures???



The links are too numerous to list here and most would be seen as some kind of conspiracy theory. Even trying to explain one thing is not enough since I would also have to explain the explanations.

The link between garden and cities is that both are result of human skill.


----------



## arielipi

ahmedcowon said:


> In Arabic:
> 
> The standard word for garden is *حديقة /ħadeeqa/* (The plural is حدائق /ħadaa'eq/) from the root حدق ħ-d-q (to stare, to gaze). The standard word for gardener is *بستاني /bustaani/* which literally means "orchardist" (_bustaan_ is a loanword from Persian)
> 
> There's also the word *روضة /rawdha/* (The plural is رياض /riyadh/) for garden but this word is mostly used to mean "Kindergarten"
> 
> Another word used in spoken Arabic is *جنينة /junayna/* which means "small heaven". The plural is جنائن /janaa'en/ and the word for gardener is *جنائني /janaa'eni/*
> 
> In Egyptian Arabic, garden is *جنينة /geneena/* and gardener is *جنايني /ganayni/*


בוסתן bustan is the same thing also a vegetables/fruits merchant "store" in a market
חדר kheder in hebrew is room, to me connected to hadeeqa, also this root is used for "push in/hard" physically/mentally; specifically can be used for gazing/staring


ThomasK said:


> I just checked and found out that it may have the connotation of a park or maybe playground. (We do have _speeltuin_, lit. playing garden (?), but no association with a park.)


גינה gina can also be used for playground and not just garden indeed.


----------



## ThomasK

The _kheder/ hadeeqa _root has a very large semantic load then, I guess. 

I have been wondering about _garden _and _gorod _in Slavic. I think it means 'town' nowadays, but not 'garden', I imagine, whereas the root is just the same.


----------



## bibax

ThomasK said:


> I find it very interesting that Christ is called the Fruit Grower. I can imagine two possibilities, but depending on the places you are referring to: a parable with a Vineyard, and a scene after the resurrection (in Dutch _tuinier_, gardener). Could you tell us whether you are referring to one of those, or to another?


Now I realised that there are many Czech versions of the Bible. No version uses the noun *sadař* (fruit grower), however sadař is always used in the sermons. Probably it sounds better and better fits the meaning.

John 15/1 (a parable): I am the true vine, and My Father is the _husbandman_.

English versions use also: winegrower, vinedresser, vineyard keeper, gardener, farmer, earth-tiller, ...;
Czech versions: *vinař* (winegrower, vigneron; most common), sometimes rolník (agricola, < Vulgata), never zahradník (gardener);
Latin Vulgata: agricola (= agriculturer);
Greek: geōrgos;
Russian: vinogradaŕ;
Polish: ogrodnik;

In John 20/15 (the scene after the resurrection) it is always *zahradník* (Eng. gardener, or a phrase like 'in charge of the garden', Lat. hortulanus, Gr. kēpouros, Rus. sadovnik, Pol. ogrodnik).


----------



## ThomasK

Great information. I did not mean the thread to focus on religion only, but this is quite interesting. 

The main issue for me remains: what is the translation of 'garden', and also to what extent does it work as a common metaphor, often for the world as such? (Id. for 'gardener': does it sound like an important job (tending/seeing to a vital place) or is s/he just some kind of worker?


----------



## ahmedcowon

ThomasK said:


> Small heaven is an intriguing word.(I suppose those _janaa'eni_ ought to pay for working in it)... But what could be the origin? The serail???
> I suppose the latter words are directly related with the Hebrew words.


Yes, they are directly related with the Hebrew words. The word *جنة *_jannah_ means both "garden" and "heaven" and it's the word used in Quran for both meanings but nowadays we only use _jannah_ to mean "heaven" and we use the little form *جنينة *_junaynah_ to mean "garden".

_janaa'eni _is the person who works in it, we don't use this word when talking about the owner. The word _bustaani_ is used to mean both (owner and worker).


> As for _hadeeqa:_ is that because gardens here are meant for walking ?


 I have checked that word and found that the root "ħ-d-q" is also used to mean "to surround" and that the word _ħadeeqa_ literally means "an area surrounded by a wall"


----------



## ThomasK

So enclosures all the way... Interesting link between heaven and garden; cannot think of a parallel in my own language, except in some semantic way... 

 Interesting distinction between owner and worker. I had not thought of that, but of producing. I now think of the idea of *nursing*, as in a nursery in English, where referring to trees... It reminds me of the Dutch 'kweken'/ 'telen' in a garden, which implies 'making grow', stimulating the growth, *cultivate*, _bewerken _in Dutch,let's say [werken = work, labour]. But the word is not linked to gardens, only to all kinds of places where people, humans, are 'organising the growing process', the 'culture' c.q. crop. I suppose that is an idea conveyed by the French word _jardinier_, not by ours, which seems more prosaic. French _jardiniers _seem more fertile, life-giving, metaphorically speaking. But I suppose this cultivating ought to become a separate thread...


----------



## Stoggler

ThomasK said:


> Could you comment on the Scottish words, especially on *gàirnealair? *Is it something like garden-holder/ hold-garden, or something the like?



Firstly there is no such language called Scottish: there is *Scots* (a Germanic variety considered by some to be a dialect of English) and then there's *Scottish Gaelic* - you have to be careful of the nomenclature to avoid confusion (and possible offence).

*Gàirnealair* is a borrowing from English, no more than that.

*Lios* is of Celtic origin and its early Irish meaning was 'enclosure' or 'habitation' (and related to the modern Welsh word *llys*, meaning court)


----------



## ThomasK

Great to hear your garden and court are related... - and sorry about the mistake.


----------



## apmoy70

ahmedcowon said:


> In Arabic:
> 
> ...The standard word for gardener is *بستاني /bustaani/* which literally means "orchardist" (_bustaan_ is a loanword from Persian)
> ..


We have that too (haven't heard it for ages though) from Persian via Turkish, *«μποστάνι»* [bo'stani] (neut.) but for us it specifically desribes the _melon/watermelon orchard_ (which is weird). Its gardener is *«μποσταντζής»* [bostan'd͡zis] (masc.) < Turkish bostanci.
The Greeks from Istanbul, or Anatolia in general, name *«μποστάνι»* the enclosure/land/plot devoted to the cultivation of vegetables.


----------



## ThomasK

That is quite interesting indeed: we have special words, I think, for the 'key gardens', like - in Dutch -  *'boomgaard' *(tree-yard, i.e., *orchard*, which in itself just means _wort _(plant root, vegetable), or *'moestuin' *(vegetable garden), which might be explained as 'food garden'.. Maybe this is an interesting sidethread to be developed here.


----------



## ilocas2

Spanish:

garden - *jardín*
gardener - *jardinero*


----------



## Sardokan1.0

*Italian :*

*garden -* il giardíno *- plural -* i giardíni
*gardener -* il giardiniére *- plural -* i giardiniéri
*vegetable garden -* l'orto *- plural -* gli orti
*inner garden - *il cortíle* - plural - *i cortíli

*Sardinian :

garden -* su jardínu *- plural -* sos jardínos
*gardener -* su jardinéri *- plural -* sos jardinéris
*vegetable garden -* s'ortu *- plural -* sos ortos
*inner garden -* sa corte, su corrále *- plural -* sas cortes, sos corráles


----------



## Armas

Finnish:

Most of the words are compounds with _tarha_ which means an enclosed area, borrowed from a Baltic langauge (cf. Lith. _daržas_, Latv. _dārzs_)
_puutarha_ "garden" (_puu_ "tree")
_vihannestarha_ (_vihannes_ "vegetable")
_hedelmätarha_ (_hedelmä_ "fruit")
_viinitarha_ "vineyard"

Gardener is _puutarhuri_ or _puutarhanhoitaja_ (_hoitaa_ "to nurse, to care")

Other words are compounds with _maa_ "earth, soil, land, ground". Such words mean either a plot in a garden or an entire garden.
_kasvimaa_ (_kasvi_ "plant"), also _kasvitarha, _"plant" here means vegetable
_yrttimaa_ (_yrtti_ "herb"), also _yrttitarha
perunamaa (peruna _"potato")


----------



## mataripis

Garden in Tagalog is Halamanan. Gardener is maghahalaman. But in general, any one who is managing a place or farm is called tagapangasiwa.


----------



## Messquito

Chinese:
花園 for flowers
庭園 -->yard
果園 for fruits

園丁 gardener


----------



## apmoy70

Messquito said:


> Chinese:
> 花園 *for flowers*
> ...


We have that too, *«ανθώνας»* [anˈθonas] (masc.) < Byz.Gr 3rd declension masc. noun *«ἀνθών» anthṓn* (nom. sing.), *«ἀνθῶνος» anthônos* (gen. sing.) --> _land/enclosure devoted to the cultivation of flowers_ calqued after the Classical «ἐλαι*-ών*» --> _land/enclosure devoted to the cultivation of olive trees_ (see my post #12) < Classical neut. noun *«ἄνθος» ắntʰŏs* --> _flower_ (with obscure etymology; possibly related to Skt. उद्भिद् (udbhid), _sprout of the soma plant_, Alb. endë, _flour_).

Also colloquially *«αλτάνα»* [alˈtana] (fem.) < It. altana, _terrace_.


----------



## ger4

Danish:
gardener = _*gartner*_, a German loan word* [source]
garden = _*have*_, a cognate with English 'haw'


> haw (n.)
> 
> 
> "enclosure," Old English haga "enclosure, fortified enclosure; hedge," from Proto-Germanic *hag- (source also of Old Norse hagi, Old Saxon hago, GermanHag "hedge;" Middle Dutch hage, Dutch haag, as in the city name The Hague), from PIE root *kagh- "to catch seize; wickerwork fence" (see hedge (n.), and compare hag). Meaning "fruit of the hawthorn bush" (Old English) is perhaps short for *hægberie. [source]



* German:
gardener = _*Gärtner*_
garden = *Garten*


----------



## Dib

Bengali:
Garden = bagan/বাগান (< Persian)
Gardener = mali/মালি


----------



## ThomasK

Holger2014 said:


> Danish:
> gardener = _*gartner*_, a German loan word* [source]
> garden = _*have*_, a cognate with English 'haw'


*Have/haw/ hedge*: here again there may be a mix-up between the fence and the enclosure (that which is enclosed by the fence). The German _Zaun_ refers to the fence, whereas _town_ in Dutch and _tuin_ in Dutch refer to the garden (or the city)...


----------



## 810senior

Japanese:
Garden - niwa庭
Gardener - niwashi庭師



Messquito said:


> Chinese:
> 花園 for flowers
> 庭園 -->yard
> 果園 for fruits


That's also the case for Japanese.


----------



## ilocas2

garden -

Czech: *zahrada*

Slovak: *záhrada*

Upper Sorbian: *zahroda*


----------



## 123xyz

Macedonian:

градина - garden (general)
бавча* - garden (with fruits and vegetables, rather than just flowers)
градинар - gardener (general)

*from Ottoman Turkish, cf. Modern Turkish "bahçe".


----------



## ThomasK

Am I correct if I think that garden is /gradina/ and is related with /gorod/ (town, if I am not mistaken)? Does the /bahsa(?)/ refer to fruit?



Dib said:


> Bengali:
> Garden = bagan/বাগান (< Persian)
> Gardener = mali/মালি


 Do I have to believe there is nog link between the two? Somehow that looks strange to me, but I suppose there is some other logic...


----------



## 123xyz

> Am I correct if I think that garden is /gradina/ and is related with /gorod/ (town, if I am not mistaken)? Does the /bahsa(?)/ refer to fruit?



In Macedonian, there's no "город", but there is "град" (grad, city), which is our equivalent of "город". The two words are indeed related, both cognates to the English "yard", it would appear. Also:

ограда (ograda) - fence (so we haven't conflated the fence with what's inside it, but we do emphasize the connection)
гради (gradi) - to build (originally, to build/enclose a city, I suppose).

I don't think that "бавча" (bavcha) refers to fruit - a dictionary tells me that it's originally from Persian, a diminutive of a root which meant "garden" or "orchard" (you do have some connection with fruit there; however, the word doesn't contain a root meaning "fruit", whereas the Macedonian word for orchard, namely "овоштарник", does - fruit is "овошје").


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks for the (very) interesting information. I ought to have asked for the garden of Eden as well, I suppose! ;-) BTW: in German the "Zaun" refers to the fence, whereas "tuin" in Dutch refers to what is inside, the "Garten" in Gemran.  

Etymonline.com tells me that 
"Greek *paradeisos *"park, paradise, Garden of Eden," [is] from an Iranian source similar to Avestan *pairidaeza *"enclosure, park" (Modern Persian and Arabic *firdaus *"garden, paradise"), compound of _*pairi*_- "around" + *diz *"to make, form (a wall)" "


----------



## bibax

123xyz said:


> ... from Ottoman Turkish, cf. Modern Turkish "bahçe".


I immediately thought of The Fountain of Bakhchisaray.

And indeed: Persian  باغچه‌سرای _(bâqce sarây),_ Crimean Tatar Bağçasaray — the Garden Palace.


----------



## djara

ahmedcowon said:


> from the root حدق ħ-d-q (to stare, to gaze)


In addition to staring, the Arabic root حدق ħ-d-q also means 'to surround'.
From Kitab al-'ayn:


> والحديقةُ: أرضٌ ذاتُ شَجَر مُثْمِر، والجميع: الحَدائق. والحديقة من الرياض: ما أَحدَقَ بها حاجِزٌ أو أرضٌ مُرتفعة


 A _hadeeqa_ is a land with fruit trees, pl. _hadayeq_, a _hadeeqa_ garden is one surrounded by a wall or by elevated soil.


> وكُلُّ بشيءٍ استدارَ بشيءٍ فقد أَحدَقَ به.


 For anything surrounding something else we can use the verb _ahdaqa_.
This meaning of the verb ahdaqa, to surround, is still to be found in the set phrase أحدق به الخطر , _adaqa bihi al-khatar_, he was surrounded by danger.

Edit: Woops. It seems I duplicated post #28


----------



## ThomasK

This idea of surrounding is fairly new to me, although maybe any fence will be "around" a circular, square or rectangular plot. Or does "to enclose" refer to some kind of roundness????

@bibax: the title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?


----------



## djara

ThomasK said:


> The title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?


I'm not sure whether the question was addressed to me. If it is, my reference is to the earliest Arabic dictionary.
As to gardens being enclosures, I think the concept is widespread and cross cultural. The word garden itself is ultimately from Latin hortus gardinus, enclosed garden. (etymonline)
As far as I know, enclosed gardens are usually either square-shaped or rectangular, not circular.


----------



## ThomasK

You are quite right, I had got confused somehow: I think this closing has reminded of circles, I think, whereas that association is too narrow indeed, I now realize...


----------



## bibax

ThomasK said:


> @bibax: the title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?


Yes, it is a poem written by Alexander Pushkin.

Bakhchysarai (or Bakhchisaray) is a city in Crimea. The name comes from Persian باغچه سرای (_bāghche sarāy)_ which means _the Garden Palace_.


----------



## ilocas2

ilocas2 said:


> Spanish:
> 
> garden - *jardín*
> gardener - *jardinero*





ilocas2 said:


> garden -
> 
> Czech: *zahrada*
> 
> Slovak: *záhrada*
> 
> Upper Sorbian: *zahroda*



addition to my previous 2 posts in this thread:

Czech:

garden - *zahrada*
gardener (job) - *zahradník* (male), *zahradnice* (female)
gardener (hobby) - *zahrádkář* (male), *zahrádkářka* (female)


----------



## igusarov

ThomasK said:


> As for the background of my question: a Frenchspeaking interview referred to monks as the_ jardiniers de l'humanité_, but I find no good equivalent


If your question is about figurative ways to picture relations between monks and people, then in Russian monks are sometimes called "пастырь" [ˈpastɨrʲ] - an obsolete word which meant "shepherd", and his attendants are called "паства" [ˈpastvə] i.e. those being tended by the shepherd. Etymology goes back to the verb "to graze, to herd".


----------



## Linnets

Sardokan1.0 said:


> *gardener -* il giardiniére *- plural -* i giardiniéri


This is somewhat misleading since _giardiniere_ has an open _e: giardinière, giardinièri _([dʒardiˈnjɛːre, -ri]).


----------



## Penyafort

Catalan: *jardí* [ʒəɾ'ði] (_Western_ [dʒaɾ'ði]) and *jardiner *[ʒəɾði'ne] (_Western_ [dʒaɾði'neɾ]).

I guess Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan and Italian forms all come from French _jardin_. Otherwise we should have forms starting with [g] instead of with [(d)ʒ].


----------



## merquiades

@Penyafort 's comment has just made me wonder now if English _*yard*_ and _*garden*_ actually have the same origin but came into the language from different sources.  They are very close in meaning anyway.

On the origin of _jardin_ (Fr)


> À l'époque gallo-romaine, les linguistes d'aujourd'hui en sont convaincus, existait l'*hortus gardinus*, désignant le jardin entouré d'une clôture. En fait, _hortus_, représente pour les Romains le jardin au sens général du terme, c'est-à-dire une terre plus ou moins étendue, plantée de végétaux et, au reste, à l'origine du mot «horticulteur» ; l'autre, germanique, _gart_ ou _gardo_, définit la clôture.



So _jardin_ meant originally "enclosed plantation" (hortus gardinus).  It has to be a very old word since palatalization from  /ɡa/ > /dʒa/ occurred in Early Old French.  _Hortus _doesn't exist anymore


----------



## ThomasK

One more link I should have thought of before: _*town*_/ Dutch _*tuin (garden)*_/ German Zaun *(fence).* It all starts with a fence, but in Dutch and English it developed to the area enclosed (by the fence): a mini-city, a garden.


----------



## Penyafort

Well, enclosures make sense for gardens. Just think of the garden of _Paradise_, word that was taken from Old Persians for the wall around it.


----------



## merquiades

I take back my comment on "Hortus". The word does exist in Italian but it eluded me because it has lost its h:  "Orto".  It is frequent and can mean yard, botanical or vegetable garden.
"Giardino" seems reserved for greenery or any specific types of garden.
There is a word specifically related to "orto" meaning fruit and vegetable gardener: "ortolano".


----------



## Penyafort

merquiades said:


> I take back my comment on "Hortus". The word does exist in Italian but it eluded me because it has lost its h:  "Orto".  It is frequent and can mean yard, botanical or vegetable garden.
> "Giardino" seems reserved for greenery or any specific types of garden.
> There is a word specifically related to "orto" meaning fruit and vegetable gardener: "ortolano".



I thought you were referring to French. Otherwise those descendants exist not only in Italian but also in Catalan (_hort_, _hortolà_), Spanish (_huerto_, _hortelano_), Portuguese (_horto_, _hortelão_), etc. There are even distinctions between the masculine (_hort_, _huerto_, _horto_) and the feminine (_horta_, _huerta_, _horta_), which is larger.


----------



## Agró

merquiades said:


> _Hortus _doesn't exist anymore


It does exist in English. Only in disguise:
Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::
*orchard* /ˈɔːtʃəd/n

an area of land devoted to the cultivation of fruit trees
a collection of fruit trees especially cultivated
Etymology: Old English _orceard, ortigeard,_ from _ort-,_ from Latin _hortus_ garden + _geard_ yard²


----------



## merquiades

Agró said:


> It does exist in English. Only in disguise:
> Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::
> *orchard* /ˈɔːtʃəd/n
> 
> an area of land devoted to the cultivation of fruit trees
> a collection of fruit trees especially cultivated
> Etymology: Old English _orceard, ortigeard,_ from _ort-,_ from Latin _hortus_ garden + _geard_ yard²


Wow.  _Orchard_.  I'd have never made the connection.
_Ort yard_ is the same as _hortus gardinus._  Maybe the source was some intermediate old French term close to *_hort-jard._


----------



## symposium

Penyafort said:


> There are even distinctions between the masculine (_hort_, _huerto_, _horto_) and the feminine (_horta_, _huerta_, _horta_), which is larger.


It is a common trait in Italian, and maybe other Romance languages, to swap from one (grammatical) gender to the other in order to indicate a different size: cesto (m.)=basket/cesta (f.)=a large basket; casa (f.)=house/casone (m.)=a big house/casino (m.)=a small house; donna (f.)=woman/ donnone (m.)=a large woman; canna (f.)=reed, cane/ cannone (m.)=cannon etc. etc...


----------



## Linnets

symposium said:


> It is a common trait in Italian, and maybe other Romance languages, to swap from one (grammatical) gender to the other in order to indicate a different size: cesto (m.)=basket/cesta (f.)=a large basket; casa (f.)=house/casone (m.)=a big house/casino (m.)=a small house; donna (f.)=woman/ donnone (m.)=a large woman; canna (f.)=reed, cane/ cannone (m.)=cannon etc. etc...


A common explanation was that the feminine one was "bigger" because it recalled the "mother": e.g. _il coltello,_ _la coltella_ (Tuscan) 'a large blade knife (for example the one used to cut bread)' _il cucchiaio_, _la cucchiara_ (Sicilian) 'a large spoon.' However your examples show that also masculine gender is used to indicate the larger ones. Back in topic, it's worth noting that in Italian *_l'orta_ doesn't exist.


----------



## bearded

merquiades said:


> it eluded me because it has lost its h: "Orto"


Considering the etymology of ''orchard'' (#64 above) it is clear that you, too, in this case have lost the h.   
I will add that vegetables from the orchard (such as tomatoes, carrots etc.) are called _ortaggi_ in Italian.


----------



## Cork Irish

Irish

Garden: garraí (ultimately from Old Norse _garðr_ (“enclosed space, yard”). Or gáirdín from the English word.
Gardener: garraíodóir


----------



## ThomasK

Did you borrow the word from Old Norse? Was there trade/... in times long gone?


----------



## Stoggler

ThomasK said:


> Did you borrow the word from Old Norse? Was there trade/... in times long gone?


Trade and colonization (Dublin, for example, has Norse origins), and whatever other naughty activities Vikings got up to!


----------



## ThomasK

Quite interesting, thanks!


----------



## Stoggler

Cork, Waterford and Wexford are other Irish cities with some Norse origins (there are other places too).  As with pretty much everywhere else in coastal Europe at that time, there was considerable influence in Ireland from our northern visitors!


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

The Vikings ploughed well inland from the city of Dublin (as we now know it) too. The town of Leixlip (Old Norse: _lax hlaup)_, located around 18 kilometres from Dublin City, was founded by the Vikings and largely populated by Norse-speakers for a few centuries. I don't think Leixlip Vikings coined any specific word for gardner though.


----------



## Cork Irish

Pedro y La Torre said:


> The Vikings ploughed well inland from the city of Dublin (as we now know it) too. The town of Leixlip (Old Norse: _lax hlaup)_, located around 18 kilometres from Dublin City, was founded by the Vikings and largely populated by Norse-speakers for a few centuries. I don't think Leixlip Vikings coined any specific word for gardner though.



The Irish surnames: Mac Lochlainn (McLoughlin and other spellings in English) means "son of Lochlann", where Lochlann is a personal name that also means "Scandinavia" (the land of 'lochs') in Irish.

Mac Amhlaoibh (McAuliffe) - this derives from "son of Olaf". 

There are more, but I can't think of them.


----------



## desi4life

Hindi:
Garden - बाग़ (loanword from Persian)
Gardener - माली or बाग़बान (latter is a loanword from Persian)


----------



## ThomasK

Co


desi4life said:


> Hindi:
> Garden - बाग़ (loanword from Persian)
> Gardener - माली or बाग़बान (latter is a loanword from Persian)


Could you comment on the Persian/ Farsi root? I think the origin of 'paradise" is also Iranian or round about, and means around building or something the like...


Stoggler said:


> Cork, Waterford and Wexford are other Irish cities with some Norse origins (there are other places too).  As with pretty much everywhere else in coastal Europe at that time, there was considerable influence in Ireland from our northern visitors!


Not so sure here: we have _*voorde*_-names, all referring to places in the river where you can wade through, and I am pretty sure they are related to -ford, but they are traced down to _voeren_, which is pof thesame origin as the Greek fer- or for-: to carry, to transport. Do you need contact with Norse for that?


----------



## Stoggler

ThomasK said:


> Not so sure here: we have _*voorde*_-names, all referring to places in the river where you can wade through, and I am pretty sure they are related to -ford, but they are traced down to _voeren_, which is pof thesame origin as the Greek fer- or for-: to carry, to transport. Do you need contact with Norse for that?


I’m not sure what you’re saying or disputing exactly, but the Viking origin of those cities is not disputed.  And if it’s just the placenames you’re referring to, Old Norse had the word fjǫrðr (cognate with English ford, of proto-Germanic origin) from which the -ford elements in Waterford and Wexford are supposed to have come.


----------



## ThomasK

Well, I thought: if they share the same origin, e.g., proto-Germanic, they might not have been introduced by the Vikings. Would you have a source commenting on the lexical/ toponymical influence of the Vikings in the Low Countries? I have been trying to, but have not been able to find a source...


----------



## Welsh_Sion

Welsh 'ffordd' (way, road) comes from Old English 'ford'.

The Welsh word for 'ford' is 'rhyd' (Old Welsh, 'rit') and you can see the English calque in 'Ox(en)ford' (< Rhyd + ychen) - the old Brittonic capital of Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxon period.


----------

