# Characteristics of Bavarian dialect German



## Mozzerfan99

Hi. I have tried to look online for this but can find nothing in it...
What kind of characteristics of the German dialect spoken in Munich are there?
I know a few things about Souther German, but can anybody tell me how they got example pronounce 'ich' and general differences from Northern Germany
Here is what I know:
- R is often trilled.
- Schauen more common than gucken
- Never use simple past while speaking
- Sitzen used with sein in past tense.

Thanks.


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## ger4

This will probably become an endless list... As a "Non-Bavarian", I'll begin with a few random features of Bavarian-influenced Standard German (in Munich you often hear Standard German only with a slight Bavarian accent):

s is always voiceless, in any position
voiceless consonants following short, stressed vowels tend to be slightly geminated (compare Welsh English _shopping centre_)
syllable-final _l_ often (always?) sounds palatalized
Munich: _r_ is often pronounced as in most other regions of Germany (uvular, not trilled), syllable-final r is vocalized
word-initial _p, t, k_ are not aspirated (compare Scottish English)
the diphtong _ei_ sounds similar to the Scottish pronunciation of _i_ in _time_
_pf_ is actually pronounced as it's written, even in informal speech - elsewhere in Germany we tend to drop the _p_ in word-initial _pf-_ (_Pferd > "Ferd"_)
_hinauf_ and _hinunter_ are shortened to '_nauf_ and '_nunter_, not '_rauf_ and '_runter _as in colloquial northern German (but now I'm not sure if this can still be called 'Bavarian-influenced Standard German' or 'Bavarian dialect')
Statements are often follwed by "_..., gell?_" (compare informal English "_innit?_")
_ich_ is sometimes shortened to _i_ - not sure whether people in Munich pronounce it like that
_nicht > "net"_
_..._
Edit: most of these features aren't exclusively Bavarian but also characteristic of Austrian High German. "_Gell_" can be heard elsewhere in Southern Germany as well.


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## perpend

Mozzerfan99 said:


> Hi. I have tried to look online for this but can find nothing in it...
> What kind of characteristics of the German dialect spoken in Munich are there?
> I know a few things about Souther German, but can anybody tell me how they got example pronounce 'ich' and general differences from Northern Germany
> Here is what I know:
> 1) - R is often trilled.
> 2) - Schauen more common than gucken
> 3) - Never use simple past while speaking
> 4) - Sitzen used with sein in past tense.



I lived there for a while, so thought I should offer my non-native perspective.

1) Yes, in my experience. Trrrrrril. I never mastered it. Well, maybe once in a blue moon. I think the Bavarians get this from the Italians.  Italy is a hop, skip, and a jump from "Upper Bavaria". This will of course vary depending on what part of Bavaria you are from. Bavaria is the largest state in Germany.
2) Check. I still use "schauen" in most cases, and "gucken" and "kucken" have confused me to no end over the course of time.
3) Ich würde niemals "nie" sagen, aber insgesamt stimmt das irgendwie. Ich habe auch nie daran gedacht gehabt. 
4) Da verstehe ich nur Bahnhof. Was meinst du?

Just a few comments to Holger's very good comments (#2). In Munich, there is something called "Münchnerish". It's not true Bavarian, like in "Bavarian, Bavarian".

-- "ei" is just the English "I" from what I've heard. I've never heard a diphthong. Like in "Landei".  What do you mean, Holger?
-- The "Pf" is truly pronounced as two sounds, like in "Pfaffenhofen", or "Pfarrkirchen", or in "Pfiati Gott! 
-- I think "hinauf" and "hinunter" are "nabi" and "obi" in Bavarian, Bavarian. It's tough to keep track when they say it.
-- "ee" is the Bavarian "I". People in Munich, when I was there, do use it. It just depends on where you are from, and on the register of the conversation. You might not want to use it at a Board Meeting.

I' halt' geschwind den Pappen.


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## berndf

Holger2014 said:


> voiceless consonants following short, stressed vowels tend to be slightly geminated (compare Welsh English _shopping centre_)


This is, as you said, Bavarian influenced standard German and not Bavarian. Bavarian does not distinguish between long and short vowels and consonant length is not allophonic but phonemic. Minimal pairs like _a woassa mo_ (_ein weißer Mann_) and_ a woasa mo _(_ein weiser Mann_) are distinguished by consonant length. So, it is the vowel that is slightly shortened in front of a geminate consonant and not the other way round.


perpend said:


> I think "hinauf" and "hinunter" are "nabi" and "obi" in Bavarian, Bavarian. It's tough to keep track when they say it.


In Middle-Bavarian (that is the dialect group spoken from the a bit east of Vienna to a bit west of Munich) it is:
_hinauf = auffi _(_< aufhin_)
_hinab = obi _(_< abhin_)
_herauf = auffe _(_< aufher_)
_herab = obe _(_< abher_)
(precise realization varies between local dialects)


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## bearded

perpend said:


> 1)  Trrrrrril. I never mastered it. Well, maybe once in a blue moon. I think the Bavarians get this from the Italians.


Sorry, I do not think that we Italians have anything to do with that. As far as I know, originally in German the R used to be trilled - like in other Germanic languages, e.g. the Scandinavian ones, and the uvular R is a more recent feature.  In this respect, Bavarian retains an old characteristic. If there is a foreign influence, then maybe on the uvular R (possibly  from French?).


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> If there is a foreign influence, then maybe on the uvular R (possibly from French?).


Yup.


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## perpend

bearded man said:


> Sorry, I do not think that we Italians have anything to do with that. As far as I know, originally in German the R used to be trilled - like in other Germanic languages, e.g. the Scandinavian ones, and the uvular R is a more recent feature.  In this respect, Bavarian retains an old characteristic. If there is a foreign influence, then maybe on the uvular R (possibly  from French?).



Italian doesn't trill "R's"? Is it maybe regional? You know what they say: Munich is the northernmost city of Italy.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Italian doesn't trill "R's"?


Jeez. He didn't say anything of that sort.

He said that Italian influence had nothing to do with r-trilling in Bavarian and that is correct.


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## perpend

Don't you think that it could be related? I doubt that bearded is offended.

It could be related to Romanian. Okay---that's a stretch.

I have only heard the trill in certain languages.


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## Mozzerfan99

So what would someone in Munich actually speak? Would they speak Bavarian, which looks to me like a totally separate language?
And when they spoke Hochdeutsch, would they speak with these 'Bavarian influenced Hochdeutsch' characteristics people have mentioned? 

Also, was I correct in saying it is a southern thing to use sitzen with sein in the past tense.
Ie Ich bin gesessen not ich habe gesessen


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## bearded

perpend said:


> I doubt that bearded is offended


No, I'm not offended.  But berndf summarised my point of view quite exactly.  We do trill the R. Bavarians have their own trilled R, but this fact has nothing to do with Italy, since trilled R is apparently an ancient overall Germanic feature, and uvular R a relatively recent one.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> I have only heard the trill in certain languages.


The other way round. Trilling or tapping (for short r) is the rule. Everything else is the exception.

The uvular R was an innovation in French spreading from there into German, Danish and Iberian Portuguese. English (except Scottish English) have replaced the trilled/tapped r in a separate process by an approximant which is another exception. In European languages I know only one small dialect region in German that has this phenomenon, too.


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## perpend

Arrrrrrgh.

Is there a trill in there? That's a serious question.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Is there a trill in there? That's a serious question.


In ALL European languages except French, Iberian Portuguese, German, Danish and English (except Scottish English).

In French and German, the trilled r is still mandatory in traditional singing and stage pronunciation and still exists in many German dialects, Bavarian being only one of many. In France, trilling still occurs e.g. in Burgundy accent.


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## perpend

Got it. Mislead all of these yearrrs ... my dearrr... it was a good rrrrrun. [and scene].


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## ger4

perpend said:


> -- "ei" is just the English "I" from what I've heard. I've never heard a diphthong. Like in "Landei".  What do you mean, Holger?


My impression is that the Bavarian pronunciation of _Zeit_ rhymes with the Scottish English pronunciation of 'right' or even with 'late' in Standard English (but perhaps that's just a feature of some rural dialects, I don't know)


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## Mozzerfan99

Ok but to what degree are these things actually said in Munich? Like do they speak the Bavarian language, with different words? And when would they speak actual German, and when they do this would they use these things that have been mentioned?
And how different is true Bavarian from Bavarian dialect German?


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## Kajjo

Mozzerfan99 said:


> So what would someone in Munich actually speak?


Most native people in Munich speak standard German with a varying degree of Bavarian accent. Please note that very many people live in Munich that are not from Bavaria at all.



> Would they speak Bavarian, which looks to me like a totally separate language?


Right, in the narrower sense of the word, Bavarian is sort of a different language. In the broader sense, most Germans call a Bavarian accent already "er spricht Bayrisch" instead of "er spricht mit einem (starken) bayrischen Akzent".



> And when they spoke Hochdeutsch, would they speak with these 'Bavarian influenced Hochdeutsch' characteristics people have mentioned?


Yes, most Bavarians speak standard German with a varying degree of accent. Very many Bavarians believe to speak standard German, but in fact they have a quite strong accent. Personally, I never met a Bavarian who spoke without significant accent.


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## Kajjo

Mozzerfan99 said:


> And how different is true Bavarian from Bavarian dialect German?


Quite a lot! Speaking real Bavarian language in the narrower sense of the word, is extremely difficualt to understand for German. I mostly cannot understand it. 

Bavarian accent, in contrast, comes in many flavors, from slight to strong.


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## Mozzerfan99

Is it not that common any more, especially in the likes of Ingolstadt, München and Augsburg for people to use Bavarian to any great degree?


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## Kajjo

Mozzerfan99 said:


> Is it not that common any more, especially in the likes of Ingolstadt, München and Augsburg for people to use Bavarian to any great degree?


In my experience there is a great variety from slight accent, strong accent up to real Bavarian language, which becomes rare outside private family settings.


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## berndf

Mozzerfan99 said:


> Is it not that common any more, especially in the likes of Ingolstadt, München and Augsburg for people to use Bavarian to any great degree?


Not so much between Ingolstadt and Munich. Augsburg is not Bavarian speaking but Swabian. The river Lech is the border between Bavarian and Swabian. But the Swabian spoken between the rivers Lech and Iller exhibits marked Bavarian influence.


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## Mozzerfan99

Ok thanks.
So are there any more anyway? 
Especially any grammatical quirks of people in Bavaria?


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## berndf

Mozzerfan99 said:


> Ok but to what degree are these things actually said in Munich?


Munich has two local accents. One is the popular Upper Bavarian dialect and the other is a aristocratic and bourgeois accent that sounds almost like supper-correct standard German. It is difficult to explain, if you haven't heard it. By now probably a majority of people in Munich speak with accents that are non-local. There are simply to may "Zugroaste", people from other parts of the country, in the city. Munich is a centre of internal migration in Germany.


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## Mozzerfan99

Holger2014 said:


> _hinauf_ and _hinunter_ are shortened to '_nauf_ and '_nunter_, not '_rauf_ and '_runter _as in colloquial northern German


Isn't rauf a shortening of herauf? So is there a difference between hinauf and herauf? Are you saying that hinauf or 'nauf is used in Bavaria where herauf and 'rauf are used elsewhere?


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## berndf

Holger2014 said:


> My impression is that the Bavarian pronunciation of _Zeit_ rhymes with the Scottish English pronunciation of 'right' or even with 'late' in Standard English (but perhaps that's just a feature of some rural dialects, I don't know)


Depends on which "ei". The "ei" of_ Meister, ein _and_ Eiche _is "oa": _Moasta_, _oa(n)_ and _Oacha_. The "ei" of _Zeit_ varies between _ei_ and _ai_, depending on local and personal accent. These two "ei" in standard German are of completely different origin. The "ei" = "oa" varies within the Middle Bavarian region depending on region and social group. Meister, e.g., can be pronounced _Moasta _(western region and rural throughout the region), _Maasta _(eastern urban) or _Määsta _(Viennese).


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## berndf

Mozzerfan99 said:


> Isn't rauf a shortening of herauf? So is there a difference between hinauf and herauf? Are you saying that hinauf or 'nauf is used in Bavaria where herauf and 'rauf are used elsewhere?


_Hinauf _and _herauf _mean different things everywhere. The only difference is that the standard/colloquial German short form _rauf _is used for both _hinauf_ and _herauf_. In Bavarian neither of them are really common. They usually say _auffi_, corresponding to obsolete standard German _aufhin_, for _hinauf_ and _auffe/auffa_, corresponding to obsolete standard German_ aufher_, for _herauf_.

The form _nauf _from _hinauf _exists as well but the form _auffi _from _aufhin _is much more common in most areas.


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## berndf

perpend said:


> Got it. Mislead all of these yearrrs ... my dearrr... it was a good rrrrrun. [and scene].


I guess, it is simple more obvious in Italian and Spanish than in most other languages because they still distinguish between single and double r in pronunciation which makes a prolonged trill mandatory for rr. In languages that lack the ristinction between r and rr, trilling and tapping are usually just alternative realizations and the difference has no significance.


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## Hutschi

"Bavarian Dialect" is very much simplified. As far as I'm aware, there are several different dialects in Bavaria. One is "Bairisch" another is a kind of "Fränkisch" (in several varities).
My aunt lives in Schweinfurt and she speaks a kind of Fränkisch.
My birthplace was Steinach with the Itzgründisch kind of Fränkisch.

There "nauf" and "nunter" is used, and it is really different from "rauf" and "runter".
Another abbreviation is "naa" (hinab), "ninter" ("nach hinten"), "nüber" ("hinüber")

All this is used in Kronach (Bayern) too, as far as I know, because they speak almost the same dialect.

So I think it depends on the Part of Bavaria or where the speaker came from.
---

We trilled the "r", too:
"Drrrölllalla drrrraa"


There are big differences between Bairisch and Fränkisch. (Fränkisch is not a single dialect but a dialect group, too.)

Munich is in the "bairisch" area. But it is a large town and the language mixes somehow.

---
One special feature of the Bairisch dialects is that they have more diphtongues.

---
@bernd: With "upper Bavarian dialect" - do you mean the region or is there indeed "Upper Bavarian " as a translation for "oberbairischer Dialekt"?

---
Is there the "double perfect" in Munich?
_Ich habe gegessen gehabt._ -- ?


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> @bernd: With "upper Bavarian dialect" - do you mean the region or is there indeed "Upper Bavarian " as a translation for "oberbairischer Dialekt"?


I mean the dialects spoken in _Oberbayern_. That isn't really a separate dialect group.


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## Dan2

In addition to the exceptions to tapped/trilled /r/ in Germanic languages already mentioned by Bernd...
- I hear something very much like an American after-vowel /r/ in Swedish and Norwegian in certain contexts (but a tapped /r/ in most other contexts; dialect-dependent, of course)
- In Dutch, using the word "vier" (="four") as an example, some people say something almost identical to American "fear", others something close to standard-German "vier" [fiɐ].  (Some have [v...].)


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## perpend

Holger2014 said:


> My impression is that the Bavarian pronunciation of _Zeit_ rhymes with the Scottish English pronunciation of 'right' or even with 'late' in Standard English (but perhaps that's just a feature of some rural dialects, I don't know)



Bernd talked about this above, but yes, Holger, with that example, I see what you mean, when you explain it like that.

I hope the following is on-topic.

As most people know, or don't know, the German state of Bavaria is subdivided into 7 districts.
1) Upper Bavaria
2) Lower Bavaria
3) Swabia
4) Upper Palatinate
5) Upper Franconia
6) Middle Franconia
7) Lower Franconia

I'll try to keep this short. As a "Zugeroaste(r)" in Munich (as Bernd mentioned above ... well, I was a foreigner, but if you are not from Munich (even if you are from another part of Germany), then you are a "Zugeroaste(r)) ... I learned to be able to tell where people were from, *within the State of Bavaria*. I'm simplifying, but I heard five distinctions in speech patterns: Upper Bavarian, Lower Bavarian, Swabian, Upper Palatinate* (see bernd's explanation below, #33), and Franconian (lumping those three together). You learn to notice the differences when working/interacting with people.

A further category you could hear, as I said way above, was what I call "Münchnerisch"---people born in Munich proper. I may be using that term wrong.


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## berndf

Bavarian is only spoken in three of the seven districts. The dialects of Lower and Upper Bavaria belong to the Middle Bavarian group (except a small part in the SW of Upper Bavaria that is South Bavarian speaking) and the dialect of Upper Palatinate forms a separate sub group, North Bavarian.


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