# геноцид



## Konstantinos

Такие преступления не имеют срока давности. Оценка им дана именно Нюрнбергским трибуналом, выработанные им признаки преступления против человечности определили само понятие геноцид и легли в основу Конвенции ООН по борьбе с геноцидом, принятой в 1948 году.

Hi all. This is from a speech by Vladimir Putin (20 ноября 2020 года).

I don't understand the grammar rule of геноцид. Is it nominative or accusative? I mean, I would expect the genitive геноцида here.

Заранее спасибо.


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## Rosett

It’s instrumental, using the preposition с.


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## Konstantinos

I am talking about the first one: само понятие геноцид


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## Rosett

Konstantinos said:


> само понятие геноцид


Yes, _геноцидом_ is in the instrumental case, singular only.
*геноцид*
м.
Политика, создающая неблагоприятные социальные, экономические и т.п. условия, способствующие уничтожению или деградации какой-либо национальной, этнической, расовой или религиозной группы лиц.
*геноцид*
-а, только ед., м.
Политика истребления отдельных групп населения, целых народов по расовым, национальным или религиозным мотивам.
Преступления геноцида.
_Этимология_:
От немецкого Genozid (← греч. genos ‘род’, ‘происхождение’ и лат. caedere ‘убивать’).
_Энциклопедический комментарий:_
Наказуемость геноцида установлена уставами международных военных трибуналов (Нюрнбергского и Токийского), а также специальной международной конвенцией "О предупреждении преступления геноцида и наказании за него", одобренной Генеральной Ассамблеей ООН 9 декабря 1948 г.


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## Awwal12

Konstantinos said:


> I don't understand the grammar rule of геноцид.


To be entirely correct, it should be само понятие "геноцид" (with the quotation marks), where "геноцид" is essentially an appositive, which modifies the word "понятие". Cf. other appositives like город _Москва_.


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## pimlicodude

Konstantinos said:


> Такие преступления не имеют срока давности. Оценка им дана именно Нюрнбергским трибуналом, выработанные им признаки преступления против человечности определили само понятие геноцид и легли в основу Конвенции ООН по борьбе с геноцидом, принятой в 1948 году.
> 
> Hi all. This is from a speech by Vladimir Putin (20 ноября 2020 года).
> 
> I don't understand the grammar rule of геноцид. Is it nominative or accusative? I mean, I would expect the genitive геноцида here.
> 
> Заранее спасибо.


I want to point out само - "itself", which is easily confusable with самое ("the very"), particularly in the oblique forms.

All forms of сам are ending-stressed apart from the npl сАми. So: самА, самО, самогО, самомУ, самИми etc. So here we have самО понятие.

I have found in my reading of Solzhenitsyn with two rival audio versions that the readers are often confused by самого, with one reading it сАмого (у сАмого государства) and the other самогО (самогО государства). The very government vs. the government itself - two distinct meanings.


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## Konstantinos

pimlicodude said:


> I want to point out само - "itself", which is easily confusable with самое ("the very"), particularly in the oblique forms.
> 
> All forms of сам are ending-stressed apart from the npl сАми. So: самА, самО, самогО, самомУ, самИми etc. So here we have самО понятие.
> 
> I have found in my reading of Solzhenitsyn with two rival audio versions that the readers are often confused by самого, with one reading it сАмого (у сАмого государства) and the other самогО (самогО государства). The very government vs. the government itself - two distinct meanings.


Well, I mean the yandex and google translate the сам as "the very": the very concept of genocide.

Does it look like that the engines are perplexed as well?

Something better would be:

the self-concept of genocide

the concept itself of genocide

?


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## pimlicodude

Konstantinos said:


> Well, I mean the yandex and google translate the сам as "the very": the very concept of genocide.
> 
> Does it look like that the engines are perplexed as well?
> 
> Something better would be:
> 
> the self-concept of genocide
> 
> the concept itself of genocide
> 
> ?


the actual concept of genocide

в сАмом центре - in the very centre
(from context reverso): Сейчас мы наблюдаем нарастающее недовольство этой властью и в самОм Киеве in Kiev itself

But I think the borderline between "the very" and "self" is very vague, and maybe in many contexts you could translate either way. But as there are two Russian words, with two different declensions and stress patterns, it is worth trying to keep them apart in your mind.


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## pimlicodude

There seems to be no Russian word for "genocidaire". Even in English, this is less common than "genocide", and is given a French-style pronunciation, as if "genocidaire" hasn't been fully nativised. But what is the Russian word for "someone who commits genocide"? It seems there is none.


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## Konstantinos

I think you can anglicize both English and Russian:

genocider
genocidist
геноцидер
геноцидист


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## pimlicodude

Konstantinos said:


> I think you can anglicize both English and Russian:
> 
> genocider
> genocidist
> геноцидер
> геноцидист


Er... only in poor English. Dictionaries like Wiktionary throw everything in, but neither genocider nor genocidist is accepted in well-produced English. When I worked as a copy-editor, both of those would have been struck out immediately. 

I think English may be in a state of flux, due to changes in the education system and media, and the process is more advanced in America. You could say this is natural linguistic change, but copy-editors are employed in publishing houses in England to weed out new words. For example, if you enter "to conquest a territory" in Google, you will get some hits - young people in America are starting to stay it (instead of "conquer"), but new words are being pushed back against. 

I'm hoping this thread is not noticed by the experts in the English forum, or an influx of native speakers will arrive here, saying they say "genocider" and "genocidist" every day.... But these are not accepted as good English by educated native speakers, the number of whom dwindles.

As for the Russian, геноцидист makes sense.


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## Konstantinos

pimlicodude said:


> the actual concept of genocide



But actual is an adjective in English while сам a pronoun in Russian. There may be a better literal translation?


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## pimlicodude

Konstantinos said:


> But actual is an adjective in English while сам a pronoun in Russian. There may be a better literal translation?


A literal translation is not always better.


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## Awwal12

pimlicodude said:


> As for the Russian, геноцидист makes sense.


It makes sense, of course, but it isn't a normal word either. Mind you, -ист isn't a productive suffix for an actor in Russian; what it can more or less *regularly* produce is just words for adherents of the producing nouns ending in -изм. Other than that, the precise relations to the producing nouns are rather unpredictable, and typically such words have been just loaned altogether. Cf. энциклопедист (a man of encyclopedic knowledge) vs. кроссвордист (a fan of crosswords; a crossword maker) vs. африканист (a scholar studying Africa in some way) etc.


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## Konstantinos

pimlicodude said:


> As for the Russian, геноцидист makes sense.


Actually, genocidist and геноцидист are hellenization, not anglicization. I tried genokton and геноктон (from γενοκτόνος), but they didn't work out.

At the orthodox Russian aspects, it may make sense something like гено + казнить. For example геноказн or родказн (the last one is full slavicization).


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## Awwal12

-каз(н)- root is too transparently connected to punishment. And, of course, one cannot just put some random morphemes together hoping that would yield some meaningful result. Most auxilary morphemes involved in word formation are *not* really productive (i.e. they cannot be used for regular derivation).


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## Rosett

Konstantinos said:


> Well, I mean the yandex and google translate the сам as "the very": the very concept of genocide.
> 
> Does it look like that the engines are perplexed as well?
> 
> Something better would be:
> 
> the self-concept of genocide
> 
> the concept itself of genocide


Само понятие геноцид = _собственно понятие геноцид_ can be rendered in English as _(notion of) genocide proper _:

Ghosts of Halabja: Saddam Hussein and the Kurdish Genocide: Saddam
Michael J. Kelly — 2008 · Political Science
As for Saddam Hussein, he probably would have been found guilty of _genocide proper_, not just complicity in genocide, had he survived to be sentenced…

Ontological Destruction: Genocide and Canadian Aboriginal Peoples
by A Woolford · 2009 · Cited by 155 — processes different from and less severe than _genocide proper_, which some suggest must involve the attempted…

The Meanings of Genocide - critical theories of antisemitism network
_genocide proper_. Indeed, as Levene explains,. `at what point pulverising a people into ac- ceptance of the fact becomes so total as to.

The Crime of Complicity in Genocide: How the International Criminal ... - jstor
by DM Greenfield · 2008 · Cited by 46 — _genocide proper_, whereas dolus indirectus and dolus eventualis will allow guilt to attach for committing the crime of…

Genocide
Guenael Mettraux — 2019 · Law
First, the Court's jurisdiction ratione materiae in relation to genocidal offences is limited by Articles 5(1)(a) and 6 of the Statute to _genocide proper_.


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## Rosett

Konstantinos said:


> Actually, genocidist and геноцидист are hellenization, not anglicization. I tried genokton and геноктон (from γενοκτόνος), but they didn't work out.
> 
> At the orthodox Russian aspects, it may make sense something like гено + казнить. For example геноказн or родказн (the last one is full slavicization).


_Геноцид_ is a lexical orphan in Russian (except of _геноцидальный, _which is not found in dictionaries.) Moreover, _геноцид_ has no plural form.


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## Awwal12

Rosett said:


> except of _геноцидальный, _which is not found in dictionaries


Looks like an obvious morphological calque from English "genocidal".


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## MIDAV

Konstantinos said:


> But actual is an adjective in English while сам a pronoun in Russian. There may be a better literal translation?


I would argue (again) that the best translation of _само _is just the definite article: _…. defined the concept of genocide ... _


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## Rosett

MIDAV said:


> I would argue (again) that the best translation of _само _is just the definite article: _…. defined the concept of genocide ... _


If translated back to Russian, it would be _концепция геноцида,_ which is a noticeably narrower rendition of the original _само понятие геноцида._


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## Awwal12

Rosett said:


> If translated back to Russian, it would be _концепция геноцида,_ which is a noticeably narrower rendition of the original _само понятие геноцида._


But it does fit the context.


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## pimlicodude

Rosett said:


> If translated back to Russian, it would be _концепция геноцида,_ which is a noticeably narrower rendition of the original _само понятие геноцида._


But концепция is a foreign word. You prefer the foreign word?


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## Konstantinos

pimlicodude said:


> But концепция is a foreign word. You prefer the foreign word?



What do you mean it is a foreign word? It is a Russian word having Latin origin, similarly to the "conception" which is an English word having Latin origin.

I suppose you meant that the "концепция" is a non-Slavic word and your query was whether a non-Slavic word (for example Latin) is preferred than the Slavic ones? Or something different?


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## pimlicodude

Konstantinos said:


> What do you mean it is a foreign word? It is a Russian word having Latin origin, similarly to the "conception" which is an English word having Latin origin.
> 
> I suppose you meant that the "концепция" is a non-Slavic word and your query was whether a non-Slavic word (for example Latin) is preferred than the Slavic ones? Or something different?


It is a foreign borrowing. If you consider the essay by the writer George Orwell on good style in English, where he recommends using Anglo-Saxon words over Latin/French words. He wrote:


> Bad writers, and especially scientific, political and sociological writers, are nearly always haunted by the notion that Latin or Greek words are grander than Saxon ones, and unnecessary words like expedite, ameliorate, predict, extraneous, deracinated, clandestine, sub-aqueous and hundreds of others constantly gain ground from their Anglo-Saxon opposite numbers. The jargon peculiar to Marxist writing (hyena, hangman, cannibal, petty bourgeois, these gentry, lackey, flunkey, mad dog, White Guard, etc.) consists largely of words translated from Russian, German, or French; but the normal way of coining a new word is to use a Latin or Greek root with the appropriate affix and, where necessary, the -ize formation. It is often easier to make up words of this kind (deregionalize, impermissible, extramarital, non-fragmentatory and so forth) than to think up the English words that will cover one’s meaning. The result, in general, is an increase in slovenliness and vagueness.


The essay, called Politics and the English Language, is famous and widely admired. The full text is at Politics and the English Language | The Orwell Foundation


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## nizzebro

The term концепция in Russian has an issue: while, as Awwal noted, it fully includes the semantics that corresponds to that in the context, but, it is also widely used for developed models (so it is has actually not a narrower but a broader meaning), and this side connotation might be undesirable in cases like the original sentence. The word концепт  means solely such theoretical model, or a concept of a planned product.

Понятие, on the other hand, generalizes "notion", "concept" and "idea" as a commonly adopted mental picture (whether simple as "notion" or more complex as "concept", but either way it is rather a complete picture). The English "conception" in general corresponds to представление (at least when the point is that it is personal) - which is basically an ability to "imagine that" - meaning a general idea about that, mostly an incomplete picture, an outline.


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## MIDAV

The only Slavic synonym for *геноцид *I can think of is _людобойство_. I can't say I like it better. And I'm not sure that it would be appreciated by the intended audience of the lesser educated either.

Also, it doesn't sound like something that needs to be defined as in _определить само понятие людобойства ?_


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## Rosett

MIDAV said:


> The only Slavic synonym for *геноцид *I can think of is _людобойство_.


_Людобойство _является русской транслитерацией польского слова _ludobójstwo_. Ludobójstwo Polaków na Wołyniu 1939–1945.
Похожее русское слово _людобой, _означавшее нечто иное, исчезло из словарей ещё в XVIII веке, но иногда встречается в неопределённом контекстно-зависимом значении у современных авторов.


> Словарь русского языка XVIII в.​*ЛЮДОБОЙ*, я, _м.(Един.)_Мы пошли к одному любителю рисунков и эстампов, который побил Витулоса за то, что он доказал ему невѣжество. От сего людобоя мы пошли к одному Библиофилу. Пельск. Кум II 225.


Евангелие от палача
Георгий Вайнер, Аркадий Вайнер — 2022 · Fiction
Замученный _людобой_ и влюбленная блядюга. Губами я чувствовал холод её металлических коронок, с нежностью обонял свежий перегар водки.

fantlab.ru
https://fantlab.ru › responsespage1
Генри Райдер Хаггард - отзывы на произведения
Я подумал тогда, что дерзкий и успешный дворянин, желающий обогатиться — не обязательно мерзавец, буржуй и _людобой_, притеснитель крепостных девок.

stih.su
https://stih.su › ... › Короткие стихи
Северянин И. - Мариинский театр - stih.su
Пусть век прошел, как некий _Людобой_,
Век похоти и прихоти минутной,
Пусть сетью разделяет он злопутной.
Меня, Мариинский театр, с тобой.


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