# I have been eating roast duck



## zuotengdauo

Assuming I once lived in China for 180 days. 
1)If I began to eat roast duck on day 2. And I have eaten them from then up until now.
Day1.....Day2(ate)....Day3.......(ate).................Day180(I left China).......(ate).......Now(still eat)

Then can I say "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China"?

2)If I didn't eat roast duck when I lived in China. But I began eating them from when I left China.
Day1.............................(not ate).......................Day180(I left China+ not ate)......(ate).......Now(still eat)

Then can I still say "I have been eating  roast duck since I lived in China"?

Thank you in advance.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Then can I say "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China"?


Yes.


zuotengdauo said:


> Then can I still say "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China"?


No, because 'since I've lived in China' suggests 'since the beginning of my stay in China'.

You'd probably be more likely to say "I have been eating roast duck since I left China"

Since + present perfect - since I have lived in China - means from the time of my arrival in China up to now (and I'm still living in China).

Since + simple past - since I left China - means from the time indicated (when I left China) up to now.


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## Franco-filly

I think the first would need "..ever since I lived in China."
The second needs "...since I left China."


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> You'd probably be more likely to say "I have been eating roast duck since I have lived in China"
> No, because 'since I've lived in China' suggests 'since the beginning of my stay in China.
> 
> You could, in these circumstances, say: "I have been eating roast duck since I left China"


Thank you very much. So my sentence can't express 1) and 2)? It doesn't make sense?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you very much. So my sentence can't express 1) and 2)? It doesn't make sense?


I missed a detail in 1. but Franco-Filly didn't.  You first sentence is fine, in my view.  I've altered my post.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> I think the first would need "..ever since I lived in China."
> The second needs "...since I left China."


Thank you very much. But I don't see any difference between "ever since" and "since" in meaning. "Ever" just emphasizes "since" in the sense of "from the time that".


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## RedwoodGrove

I have been eating roast duck since my second day in China and even after I left.
I have been eating roast duck since shortly after my stay in China began until the present time.
Right after I got to China I started eating roast duck and I still do so now that I've left.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I missed a detail in 1. but Franco-Filly didn't.  You first sentence is fine, in my view.  I've altered my post.


Thank you. I see. So my sentence can't mean 2). But what if I say "I have been eating roast duck since I was living in China"? Can this version mean either 1 or 2?


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## zuotengdauo

RedwoodGrove said:


> I have been eating roast duck since my second day in China and even after I left.
> I have been eating roast duck since shortly after my stay in China began until the present time.
> Right after I got to China I started eating roast duck and I still do so now that I've left.


Thank you very much. But I want to force my subordinate clause to be "since + duration"?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you. I see. So my sentence can't mean 2). But what if I say "I have been eating roast duck since I was living in China"? Can this version mean either 1 or 2?


I'm less happy with this.  "Since I lived" gives more the sense of 'since I started living' and the since-construction needs a point in time as a reference, usually.

"Since I was living" is strange, to my ear, and tempts the reader or listener to think you mean 'since' meaning 'because'.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm less happy with this.  "Since I lived" gives more the sense of 'since I started living' and the since-construction needs a point in time as a reference, usually.
> 
> "Since I was living" is strange, to my ear, and tempts the reader or listener to think you mean 'since' meaning 'because'.


Thank you for your opinion. But DonnyB told me it makes good sense to use past continuous after "since". He said
If you want to adapt the sentences to refer to period B3, that is before point Y happened, I _think_ you probably need the past continuous tense to describe what is then essentially in the nature of an interrupted action:
*1a. "I haven't heard any more noise since I was sleeping".
2a.  "I haven't heard from her since she was living in London".
*
_This the timeframe of since-clause. Something(A) started at time X in the past. Then it stopped at time Y. Some condition(B) has prevailed between X or Y and now. You may not be able to tell whether it has prevailed between X and now, or between Y and now, or something in between._

I think he's got a point. So I think I can say "I have been eating roast duck since I was living in China" to mean either 1 or 2?
What do you think?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> [...] I think I can say "I have been eating roast duck since I was living in China" to mean either 1 or 2?
> What do you think?


I've told you what I think.  I wouldn't say it.

If I was your editor, I'd tell you to change it.

I don't think it's usual to employ the past continuous after _since_, unless the past continuous is referring to a specific occasion, as in this example from the British Corpus: _ It's only a few days since I was sitting in the seats you all occupy..._

_I was living in China_ is by no means a specific occasion, so I wouldn't use it in your case.  Do you mean since you started living in China, or since you left China?  You only use formulae like that when you wish to be imprecise.

I don't like your example 2a at all.  I'd prefer to say "I haven't heard from her since she started living in London".

The point is that _since + a time reference _requires a specific time reference (a moment in time) and continuous tenses are by definition continuous.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I don't like your example 2a at all.  I'd prefer to say "I haven't heard from her since she started living in London".
> 
> The point is that _since + a time reference _requires a specific time reference (a moment in time) and continuous tenses are by definition continuous.


Thank you very much. Now I think I shouldn't use past continuous after "since" if the main clause is positive.

Now may I ask two more questions?
If I make some alterations to my intended meaning 1
1.1)If I began to eat roast duck on day 170(when it's only ten days before I leave China). And I have eaten them from then up until now.
Day1(not ate).....Day2(not ate)......(not ate)............Day170(ate).......Day180(I left China).......(ate).......Now(still eat)
Can I still say "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China"?

Can I say "I have eaten roast duck since I lived in China" to express meaning 1) and 1.1)?

Thank you.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you very much. Now I think I shouldn't use past continuous after "since" if the main clause is positive.
> 
> Now may I ask two more questions?
> If I make some alterations to my intended meaning 1
> 1.1)If I began to eat roast duck on day 170(when it's only ten days before I leave China). And I have eaten them from then up until now.
> Day1(not ate).....Day2(not ate)......(not ate)............Day170(ate).......Day180(I left China).......(ate).......Now(still eat)
> Can I still say "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China"?
> 
> Can I say "I have eaten roast duck since I lived in China" to express meaning 1) and 1.1)?
> 
> Thank you.


You are asking whether vague phrases can have precise meanings.  I don't think they can.

If you wish to be precise, use precise formulae.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> You are asking whether vague phrases can have precise meanings.  I don't think they can.
> 
> If you wish to be precise, use precise formulae.


Thank you. But... What vagueness?  I am only asking, for the sentence "I have been eating roast duck since I lived in China", does the start point in time of "eating roast duck" can be any time during my living in China"?


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## Franco-filly

"I have been eating xxx since I lived in China" has no specific point in time so could mean from any day between day one and day 180. If you want to be that specific [#13] you would have to say "..since my one-hundred-and-seventieth day in China.

My suggestion, in #2, of using "ever since I lived in China" was because "ever since" means "throughout the period since" and would imply "all the time I was living in China" - and I'm sure no-one would mind if you didn't admit that you had not eaten any on the 1st day.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> no *specific point in time* so could mean from any day between day one and day 180.


Thank you. You mean point in time of "my starting eating xxx", right? Then what about "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China"? Can it mean "I ate xxx only once or regularly when I lived in China. But I haven't eaten them from the time I left China"
Or can it mean "I ate xxx only once or regularly when I lived in China. And I still eat them regularly after leaving China"?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you. You mean point in time of "my starting eating xxx", right? Then what about "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China"? Can it mean "I ate xxx only once or regularly when I lived in China. But I haven't eaten them from the time I left China"
> Or can it mean "I ate xxx only once or regularly when I lived in China. And I still eat them regularly after leaving China"?


You haven't taken the point: "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" is imprecise, yet you ask if it can have a precise meaning.

We need a precise starting point with _since_ used temporarily, and 'I lived in China' does not give us one.  'Since I lived in China' could, therefore, be taken to mean either 'since I went to China' or 'since I left China'.  If you wish to be precise, use precise formulae.


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## Franco-filly

zuotengdauo said:


> Can it mean"I ate xxx only once or regularly when I lived in China.


One wouldn't know if you ate it regularly or not - you would have to add an explanation if you wanted them to know. 





zuotengdauo said:


> But I haven't eaten them from the time I left China"


No!  Since mean "up until now" unless you specify another date in the past.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> You haven't taken the point: "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" is imprecise, yet you ask if it can have a precise meaning.
> 
> We need a precise starting point with _since_ used temporarily, and 'I lived in China' does not give us one.  'Since I lived in China' could, therefore, be taken to mean either 'since I went to China' or 'since I left China'.  If you wish to be precise, use precise formulae.


Thank you. But I've got your point. I have provides several interpretations in #17 because I know it doesn't have a precise meaning.
And we don't have to establish a precise starting point with since used temporarily. Or the sentence "I have been eating xxx since I lived in China" would have made little sense. And I think one who might say these two sentences doesn't want to be precise.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> One wouldn't know if you ate it regularly or not - you would have to add an explanation if you wanted them to know. No!  Since mean "up until now" unless you specify another date in the past.


Thank you! In #16 do you mean the point in time of "my starting eating xxx" can be any day between day 1 and day 180? Sorry for asking again. I just want to make sure I understand your meaning.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> And we don't have to establish a precise starting point with since used temporarily.


One of my points was that we* do *have to establish such a point.


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## Franco-filly

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you! In #16 do you mean the point in time of "my starting eating xxx" can be any day between day 1 and day 180?


It can be day one or any day after that.  
As Thomas says


Thomas Tompion said:


> You haven't taken the point: "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" is imprecise, yet you ask if it can have a precise meaning.


 and I myself 


Franco-filly said:


> If you want to be that specific [#13] you would have to say "..since my one-hundred-and-seventieth day in China


If you want someone to know the precise day/date/moment from which you have done something you have to state that day/date/moment.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> One of my points was that we* do *have to establish such a point.


You said my sentence in the OP has the meaning1) and my sentence is fine. But now you say we do have to establish a specific point in time in since-clause. I don't understand what you mean now.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> One wouldn't know if you ate it regularly or not - you would have to add an explanation if you wanted them to know. No!  Since mean "up until now" unless you specify another date in the past.


So only my first interpretation is correct?


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> It can be day one or any day after that.


So in "I have been eating xxx since I lived in China.", the time I started eating xxx can be day one or any day aftet that. I understand correctly?


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## Franco-filly

zuotengdauo said:


> So only my first interpretation is correct?


 Sorry, I'm lost now as to which sentence you are referring to and which "interpretation"


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## Franco-filly

zuotengdauo said:


> So in "I have been eating xxx since I lived in China.", the time I started eating xxx can be day one or any day aftet that. I understand correctly?


 Yes, you started to eat it at some time within the period of your stay - although one might assume you meant earlier rather than later.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> Sorry, I'm lost now as to which sentence you are referring to and which "interpretation"


Please refer to #17. "Can it mean..."


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## Franco-filly

No, see my reply in #19


Franco-filly said:


> No!  Since means "up until *now*" .


 and you are no longer in China now.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> No, see my reply in #19
> and you are no longer in China now.


Sorry, I meant second interpretation. 'My mistake.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> You said my sentence in the OP has the meaning1) and my sentence is fine. But now you say we do have to establish a specific point in time in since-clause. I don't understand what you mean now.


Look again, Zuotengdauo.  I said it *could *have that meaning.

I'm not clear if you want to know the source of ambiguity - you produce a sentence which could have several meanings and ask if one of those meanings might be such-and-such - or if you want to know the best way of expressing an individual idea.  This may be why we seem at times to be a cross-purposes.

We do have to establish a specific point in time with _since+a time reference_ - I've been saying that all along - though that point in time can seem loose - eg. 'since I was a child'.  However some expressions, like 'since I've lived in China' invite the listener to understand several specific points in time - when you arrived, or when you left, or at some moment during your stay.  It's this possible variety of different meanings which makes your sentences containing the expression ambiguous.

I'm also not clear that you are distinguishing between what something might mean and what it must mean.  I have the impression that you ask if a sentence might mean A, and we say it might, then you ask if it must mean A and we say no.  This leads you to think us, and by 'us' I probably mean 'me', unhelpful, and even maybe to think we are contradicting ourselves.

You're lucky to have Franco-filly helping you.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> Look again, Zuotengdauo.  I said it *could *have that meaning.


Yes, I knew that.



Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm not clear if you want to know the source of ambiguity


No, that's not my intention.



Thomas Tompion said:


> or if you want to know the best way of expressing an individual idea.  This may be why we seem at times to be a cross-purposes.


No, I want to know if it's natural to say the sentence in the OP express that idea.



Thomas Tompion said:


> We do have to establish a specific point in time with _since+a time reference_ - I've been saying that all along - though that point in time can seem loose - eg. 'since I was a child'.  However some expressions, like 'since I've lived in China' invite the listener to understand several specific points in time - when you arrived, or when you left, or at some moment during your stay.  It's this possible variety of different meanings which makes your sentences containing the expression ambiguous.


I am perfectly aware of that. I am delving into possible variety of different interpretations of my sentence.



Thomas Tompion said:


> I have the impression that you ask if a sentence might mean A, and we say it might, then you ask if it must mean A and we say no.  This leads you to think us, and by 'us' I probably mean 'me', unhelpful, and even maybe to think we are contradicting ourselves.


I can distinguish them. I don't recall I have asked whether my sentence must mean A in any of my posts. I asked whether it's possible to be said in a specific scenario. I think the reason why you think I have asked whether a sentence must mean something is I have put my question poorly, though I don't know in which post I have put my question awkwardly. Would you please tell me that?



Thomas Tompion said:


> You're lucky to have Franco-filly helping you.


I count me lucky. I am grateful to you both for your help.


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## Thomas Tompion

Just keep asking, Zuotengdauo.

I'm sure we'll disentangle it in the end.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> Just keep asking, Zuotengdauo.
> 
> I'm sure we'll disentangle it in the end.


By reading what you and Franco-filly wrote, I already understood what you are trying to get across to me. I just have only one question left in #31.


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## Franco-filly

It can -  but I would tend to assume that you ate them on at least several occasions whilst living in China.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> It can -  but I would tend to assume that you ate them on at least several occasions whilst living in China.


Thank you. I see. Then can it also possibly mean "I didn't eat xxx during my residence in China. But after leaving China, I ate xxx, maybe once, maybe regularly up until now."?


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## Franco-filly

No.  In that case we'd say "I've eaten them since leaving China / since I got home from China" not "since I lived there!"


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> No.  In that case we'd say "I've eaten them since leaving China / since I got home from China" not "since I lived there!"


Thank you again. But Mr. Cagey told me this 
*"I have eaten smoked chicken feet since I lived in China" This sentence tells me that sometime after you left China you ate smoked chicken feet, though I don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often. *

Do you contradict each other?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you again. But Mr. Cagey told me this
> *"I have eaten smoked chicken feet since I lived in China" This sentence tells me that sometime after you left China you ate smoked chicken feet, though I don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often. *
> 
> Do you contradict each other?


Mr Cagey is very reliable.  The fact that he says this and other very reliable people say other things is an indication of the ambiguity of your sentence, about which we have been complaining for some time.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> Mr Cagey is very reliable.  The fact that he says this and other very reliable people say other things is a tribute to the ambiguity of your sentence, about which we have been complaining for some time.


I know my sentence is ambiguous. That's why I have asked about it. So if Fraco-filly and Cagey are both correct, I can only infer that the most reasonable interpretation is "I ate xxx only once or regularly on at least several occasions during my residence in China . And sometime after I left China I ate smoked chicken feet again, though we don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often. " Do you think so?


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## Franco-filly

zuotengdauo said:


> I know my sentence is ambiguous.


Which one ???
I'm sorry but I don't feel I can reply to this anymore as there are so many questions and sub-questions that I no longer no which you are referring to.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> I know my sentence is ambiguous. That's why I have asked about it. So if Fraco-filly and Cagey are both correct, I can only infer that the most reasonable interpretation is "I ate xxx only once or regularly on at least several occasions during my residence in China . And sometime after I left China I ate smoked chicken feet again, though we don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often. " Do you think so?


I think people would stop caring when you ate the chicken feet once you started being ambiguous.


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## zuotengdauo

Franco-filly said:


> Which one ???
> I'm sorry but I don't feel I can reply to this anymore as there are so many questions and sub-questions that I no longer no which you are referring to.


*"I have eaten smoked chicken feet since I lived in China"*
*
I asked about only two sentences in this thread .*


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I think people would stop caring when you ate the chicken feet once you started being ambiguous.


In most cases, a sentence is going to be ambiguous if it is said without any context. I think there must be a context where this sentence is clear in meaning. And I think no matter what context you might find where this sentence can fit , you can employ the interpretation I have written in #41.


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> *"I have eaten smoked chicken feet since I lived in China"*


That means exactly the same to me as it does to Cagey (post #39):
This sentence tells me that sometime after you left China you ate smoked chicken feet, though I don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often. 

PS: The thread topic and your original question is roast duck rather than chicken feet, by the way.


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## zuotengdauo

DonnyB said:


> That means exactly the same to me as it does to Cagey (post #39):
> This sentence tells me that sometime after you left China you ate smoked chicken feet, though I don't know how often. It could be only once, it could be often.
> 
> PS: The thread topic and your original question is roast duck rather than chicken feet, by the way.


Thank you. But Mr Cagey's interpretation doesn't include the fact that I ate smoked chicken feet once or regularly during my residence in China.
Because Franco-filly said it couldn't mean "I didn't eat smoked chicken feet during my residence in China".


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> In most cases, a sentence is going to be ambiguous if it is said without any context.


This depends on what level of ambiguity you are considering.  Many of the ambiguities in your sentence could be resolved by a more rigorous application of grammar, perhaps.


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you. But Mr Cagey's interpretation doesn't include the fact that I ate smoked chicken feet once or regularly during my residence in China.


No, that's right: it doesn't.

If you want to include the period you were still living there as well, then you could try something like:
"I* have been eating* roast duck since I *was living* in China", which suggests to me, at least, that you were doing it then and you're still doing it now.  Is that what you're trying to convey?


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## zuotengdauo

DonnyB said:


> If you want to include the period you were still living there as well, then you could try something like:
> "I* have been eating* roast duck since I *was living* in China", which suggests to me, at least, that you were doing it then and you're still doing it now.  Is that what you're trying to convey?


Thank you, Donny. But Please refer to #38.  I mean you and Mr Cagey doesn't say "I* have eaten *roast duck since I *lived *in China" can't mean "I didn't eat xxx during my residence in China".
I don't you two are contradicting Franco-filly. I think the "disagreement" lies in the fact that Franco-filly focuses on the priod when I lived in China while you two the period when I was not in China.


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> I mean you and Mr Cagey doesn't say "I* have eaten *roast duck since I *lived *in China" can't mean "I didn't eat xxx during my residence in China".
> I don't you two are contradicting Franco-filly. I think the "disagreement" lies in the fact that Franco-filly focuses on the priod when I lived in China while you two the period when I was not in China.


I can't speak for Cagey, nor for Franco-filly, but to me, "I* have eaten *roast duck since I *lived *in China" refers only _to the period after you left_. 

If you're asking now whether it suggests to me that you did or didn't eat it _while you were there_, then I'd say the inference I would draw is that you didn't.  You see, "since [something]" in English normally refers to_ a period of time after something finished.  _You can't really use it to include a period of time _while something was still going on._

You said way back in post #9


zuotengdauo said:


> But I want to force my subordinate clause to be "since + duration"?


and I think this is why we're all having difficulty here.  Basically, you need to decide whether you _do_ or _don't _want to include the period _when you were still living there_, and if you do, then for me, at least, "I have eaten roast duck since I lived in China"? isn't going to work.


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## zuotengdauo

DonnyB said:


> I can't speak for Cagey, nor for Franco-filly, but to me, "I* have eaten *roast duck since I *lived *in China" refers only _to the period after you left_.
> 
> If you're asking now whether it suggests to me that you did or didn't eat it _while you were there_, then I'd say the inference I would draw is that you didn't.  You see, "since [something]" in English normally refers to_ a period of time after something finished.  _You can't really use it to include a period of time _while something was still going on._
> 
> You said way back in post #9
> and I think this is why we're all having difficulty here.  Basically, you need to decide whether you _do_ or _don't _want to include the period _when you were still living there_, and if you do, then for me, at least, "I have eaten roast duck since I lived in China"? isn't going to work.


Hi, Donny. I recall a couple of days ago you told me this:
It would only work I think when something had clearly and obviously _finished,_ especially something which happened a long time ago.
To pick a couple of examples.
"There hasn't been weather like that since dinosaurs roamed the earth."

Now I think it depends on how long time it is since I left China. If it's been a long time, say, 10 years since I left China, then "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" suggests I didn't eat it while I was in China. If I have been away from China for a short period of time, then the sentence suggests "I ate it while I was in China". 
Or I may have misunderstood Franco-filly. He said the sentence can't *mean* "I didn't eat xxx while I was in China", but he didn't say the sentence doesn't *suggest* "I didn't eat xxx while I was in China".
What do you think?


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> Hi, Donny. I recall a couple of days ago you told me this:
> It would only work I think when something had clearly and obviously _finished,_ especially something which happened a long time ago.
> To pick a couple of examples.
> "There hasn't been weather like that since dinosaurs roamed the earth."


What you'd asked me about there was the structure involving a _negative perfect tense_ followed by _"since" plus a simple past_, and how often I came across native speakers using it.


zuotengdauo said:


> Now I think it depends on how long time it is since I left China. If it's been a long time, say, 10 years since I left China, then "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" suggests I didn't eat it while I was in China. If I have been away from China for a short period of time, then the sentence suggests "I ate it while I was in China".
> Or I may have misunderstood Franco-filly. He said the sentence can't *mean* "I didn't eat xxx while I was in China", but he didn't say the sentence doesn't *suggest* "I didn't eat xxx while I was in China".
> What do you think?


What I think is that you've created a sentence which is at best ambiguous and you're trying to ask us what we think it means, with the result that you're unsurprisingly getting what may be conflicting answers.  There's limited value in my opinion in tinkering about with the context a little bit to see what difference it makes.  To me, "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" refers _only_ to the period after you left China, irrespective of how long ago that was.


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## Thomas Tompion

DonnyB said:


> You see, "since [something]" in English normally refers to_ a period of time after something finished. _You can't really use it to include a period of time _while something was still going on.[...]_


I don't agree with this, I'm afraid.  Here are three examples from English literature which suggest it is not the case:

_I reach in and move the ball. It seems to swing freely. I wonder why I've never heard the bell since I lived in the neighborhood. I stand back up and grab the big wheel attached to the rope._  Dan K. Carlsruh, The Cannibals of Sunset Drive

_But rich barbarism, in the shape of ugliness, is again pushing us to the sea. There, however, its "control stops;" and since I lived in London the sea has grown more precious to me than it was even in those lovely days at Kilkhaven,- merely because no one can build upon it. _ George MacDonald*, *The Vicar's Daughter, Chapter 6.

_"Hai-yo, see, the birds flying south," said the girl with a gesture towards the cloudless sky. "Never since I lived have they gone south so soon." _ Gilbert Parker*, *Northern Lights*, * A Lodge in the Wilderness


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## meijin

Thomas Tompion said:


> "Since I lived" gives more the sense of 'since I started living'


I didn't know this!!!


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## zuotengdauo

DonnyB said:


> What you'd asked me about there was the structure involving a _negative perfect tense_ followed by _"since" plus a simple past_, and how often I came across native speakers using it.
> What I think is that you've created a sentence which is at best ambiguous and you're trying to ask us what we think it means, with the result that you're unsurprisingly getting what may be conflicting answers.  There's limited value in my opinion in tinkering about with the context a little bit to see what difference it makes.  To me, "I have eaten xxx since I lived in China" refers _only_ to the period after you left China, irrespective of how long ago that was.


So I didn't misunderstand Franco-filly. It's just the fact that my sentence is at best ambiguous that causes you to give me conflicting answers. Right?


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> So I didn't misunderstand Franco-filly. It's just the fact that my sentence is at best ambiguous that causes you to give me conflicting answers. Right?


Probably.  I'm not keen on interpreting other peoples' answers at the best of times, and I confess I've rather lost track in all this of what she actually said.  

But to take up meijin's comment (post #55), if you want your sentence to mean "since I started living..." then I think that's how you need to phrase it.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> So I didn't misunderstand Franco-filly. It's just the fact that my sentence is at best ambiguous that causes you to give me conflicting answers. Right?


There may be other reasons.

And don't forget that the context in which these phrases are used, and the tenses employed around them, both contribute greatly to the way we interpret them.

In the three examples in post #54, it's clear that _since I lived_ means from the moment I* started *living...

I could easily find other examples from reputable sources where _since I lived_ meant from the moment I *ceased* living...

When Mejin quoted me in post #55, he took what I said out of context.  I was saying that in the sentence I was considering, I would take _since I lived _in that way.  I didn't wish to give the impression that people always meant this by the phrase.


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## zuotengdauo

DonnyB said:


> Probably.  I'm not keen on interpreting other peoples' answers at the best of times, and I confess I've rather lost track in all this of what she actually said.
> 
> But to take up meijin's comment (post #55), if you want your sentence to mean "since I started living..." then I think that's how you need to phrase it.


I get your point. According to Mr Tompion, maybe "since I lived" being used in the sense of "since I started living" is often seen in old-fashioned literature.
So what do you think of this sentence:
"I have been eating xxx since I lived in China". I was told it can be said if I am referring to the second day in China when I started eating xxx. See OP.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I could easily find other examples from reputable sources where _since I lived_ meant from the moment I *ceased* living...


Thank you for your helpful examples. Could you give me examples where "since I lived" means from the moment I ceased living...? I don't know how I can find them.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> According to Mr Tompion, maybe "since I lived" being used in the sense of "since I started living" is often seen in old-fashioned literature.


This was not what I meant.  I meant that it can easily have this sense in good writing.  I don't regard it in any way as being obsolete.


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## DonnyB

zuotengdauo said:


> I get your point. According to Mr Tompion, maybe "since I lived" being used in the sense of "since I started living" is often seen in old-fashioned literature.
> So what do you think of this sentence:
> "I have been eating xxx since I lived in China". I was told it can be said if I am referring to the second day in China when I started eating xxx.


I was a bit reluctant to comment on those examples in post #54, because they all suggest to me that the person _is still living _in the neighbourhood, in London and so on, and therefore that's a different context to yours, where it's quite clear that you're *not* still living in China.

Altering the perfect tense "I have eaten.." to the perfect continuous "I have been eating.." in the first part of the sentence doesn't in my view alter what period of time "since I lived in China" refers to.  I wouldn't take it to mean the second day you arrived there.


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Thank you for your helpful examples. Could you give me examples where "since I lived" means from the moment I ceased living...? I don't know how I can find them.


_It was now more than seven years since I lived with him in the family of my old master, on Colonel Lloyd's plantation. We of course were now almost entire strangers to each other._ Frederick Douglass*, *A Narrative on the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave, Chapter 9.

_I grew up in Colorado, but it had been a while since I lived in the state._  Marshall Allen, The real dangers of marijuana edibles.
_
Now it has been nearly fifty years since I lived there, and while the hospital still exists, its nurses now wear street clothes, the bars have been sandblasted off all its windows, and " Insane " has long been extinguished from its name. _Meg Wolitzer, Tea at the House.

The point is that it can have either its meaning in the three examples immediately above, or its meaning in the three examples in post #54.  Which it means in a particular context depends upon that context and upon the other tenses employed around it.

It's absurd and misleading to say that _since I lived _always means only one of from the start or from the end of the time the person was living in the place.

When Franco-filly, or Cagey, or I have said in this thread that we understand the expression in a particular sense, I'm confident that we did so in the light of the particular context in which it was presented to us.  We shouldn't be interpreted as saying that it can only have that particular sense, for, as I've tried to show, the expression is ambiguous.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> The point is that it can have either its meaning in the three examples immediately above, or its meaning in the three examples in post #54.  Which it means in a particular context depends upon that context and upon the other tenses employed around it.


Thank you very much. But I forgot to tell you I understood the structure "It's days/months/years,etc since sb did" meant "sb did it .. ago" beforehand. I am not asking about this structure. Sorry. Could you give me some other examples where "since sb lived" as in "from the moment sb ceased living" is not used in the structure "it's a period of time since..."?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Could you give me some other examples where "since sb lived" as in "from the moment sb ceased living" is not used in the structure "it's a period of time since..."?


I fear the wild geese may have flown by now.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I fear the wild geese may have flown by now.


Ha, I know that idiom. You can't find any such examples as I have mentioned, right?


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## Thomas Tompion

zuotengdauo said:


> Ha, I know that idiom. You can't find any such examples as I have mentioned, right?


I meant that I didn't wish to spend another half an hour finding examples, only to discover that you'd changed your mind about what you wanted.

The idiom was intended to express this idea less bluntly.


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## zuotengdauo

Thomas Tompion said:


> I meant that I didn't wish to spend another half an hour finding examples, only to discover that you'd changed your mind about what you wanted.
> 
> The idiom was intended to express this idea less bluntly.


Thank you. I see. I don't wish to take up too much of your time. Could you tell me how do you do the search for these examples? On which site?


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