# Love and Pride



## kaizer21

For a tattoo i'm thinking of getting in the future, I would like to have "Love and Pride" written in Latin. 

Love in the context for your friends, family and culture. 
Pride in the sense of who you are and your familial and cultural roots. 

Perhaps in translated with a poetic feel to the phrase? Unless the simplest translation would be the best, then that would work perfectly, too. 

Thank you so much in advance


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## Andræs

Hi! I'd say:

AMOR ET SUPERBIA

or

AMOR SUPERBIAQUE

Cheers!


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## fdb

The problem is that superbia has a negative meaning in Latin (haughtiness, arrogance).


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## Joca

fdb said:


> The problem is that superbia has a negative meaning in Latin (haughtiness, arrogance).



How about "dignitas" or "spiritus""?


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## fdb

Dignitas is very good. Or pietas, in the sense "loyalty to one's family".


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## wandle

*Pietas* is good. 
It does have the sense stated by *fdb* and it does not mean the same as Christian 'piety'.
Latin *pietas* does have religious meaning, but for the Romans the religious sense of *pietas* was associated very much with family. Being polytheists, the Romans did not wrap all religious feeling up together in a single package, as we may tend to do.

'*amor pietasque*' would link the two words together, thus tending to define *amor* in the sense of family loyalty.


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## Quiviscumque

wandle said:


> *Pietas* is good.
> It does have the sense stated by *fdb* and it does not mean the same as Christian 'piety'.
> Latin *pietas* does have religious meaning, but for the Romans the religious sense of *pietas* was associated very much with family. Being polytheists, the Romans did not wrap all religious feeling up together in a single package, as we may tend to do.
> 
> '*amor pietasque*' would link the two words together, thus tending to define *amor* in the sense of family loyalty.





IMHO, "love and pride" and "amor pietasque" evoke very different dispositions.
Would "pious Aeneas"  and "proud Aeneas" be the same person?


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## wandle

Quiviscumque said:


> Would "pious Aeneas"  and "proud Aeneas" be the same person?


Are you asking if those English expressions are equivalent?


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## Quiviscumque

I feel uncomfortable with the translation "pride~pietas"; for instance, "Pride and prejudice"~ "Pietas praeiudiciumque"?? "Pietas" evokes (for me)  an "affectio" that implies an "officium", ("officium pietatis"): Aeneas carrying his father, Lares and Penates, and so on. On the other hand, "pride" ("orgullo" in my Spanish) has no implied "officium", it is just the result of a positive self-evaluation. 

But perhaps I am wrong, since my English and my Latin are far from fluent.


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## wandle

Quiviscumque said:


> I feel uncomfortable with the translation "pride~pietas"; for instance, "Pride and prejudice"~ "Pietas praeiudiciumque"?? "Pietas" evokes (for me)  an "affectio" that implies an "officium", ("officium pietatis"): Aeneas carrying his father, Lares and Penates, and so on. On the other hand, "pride" ("orgullo" in my Spanish) has no implied "officium", it is just the result of a positive self-evaluation. But perhaps I am wrong, since my English and my Latin are far from fluent.



Even with modern languages, trying to translate word for word is a mistake. Similar-seeming words may have different meanings; phrases and sentences often need to be treated as a whole.

When we try to translate into and out of classical Latin, this problem becomes harder, because we are dealing with a much wider culture gap, so that not only do the words differ, but so do their counterparts: the ideas to which the words are referring. We find that the concepts and values of the ancient and modern societies do not match each other: there is therefore in many cases no chance at all that the words will match. That is the problem we are dealing with here.

*kaizer21* in post 1 has asked for a translation of 'Love and Pride', with the following explanation:


> Love in the context for your friends, family and culture.
> Pride in the sense of who you are and your familial and cultural roots.


Clearly the sense of family connections and the positive feelings and values derived from them are basically what he wants to express.

*fdb* has pointed out that Latin* superbia* has the negative sense of haughtiness and arrogance. That is quite correct. 
This is so different from the idea of positive family feelings that it is impossible for *superbia* to be used in this case.
Roman "pride" simply does not match what *kaizer21* has in mind.

We must therefore look for a different combination of terms. I suggested *amor pietasque* as explained above, but perhaps a better choice would be *dignitas ac pietas*. This brings together *dignitas*, which can mean 'esteem' or 'prestige', with the sense of family tradition involved in *pietas*.

However, better still would be to use the adjective *pius* to qualify *dignitas*, as this will tend to _limit_ its sense to that of family reputation or prestige. So my final offer is:

*pia dignitate*, ablative case, to mean 'with the prestige or reputation of family tradition', implying that the bearer of this motto will act with those values in mind or as their representative.


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