# la constitució “Com a molts entenents”



## orca

Hi,

Can someone tell me what it means? When I searched, I only found texts in Catalan, like this one:

*Ferran I (1412-1416).* El primer rei Trastàmara va seguir una política d’acostament a la noblesa catalana (sobretot quan el seu rival en la successió Jaume d’Urgell es va revoltar contra ell) promulgant *la constitució “Com a molts entenents”*, en la qual acceptava les reivindicacions senyorials en contra dels *remences*.

I marked the word "remeneces" too because I didn't want to open a new thread. I believe it means vassals? o siervo de la tierra, which would be the lowest in the hierarchy? 

Thanks.


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## sound shift

I imagine that "remences" is number 2 here: this type of peasant ("pagès" = peasant). Landowners would not campaign against the right described at number 1, because they were the beneficiaries.


> _Diccionari manual de la llengua catalana Vox_ © Larousse Editorial, S.L. 2007.
> remença n. f.
> 
> Pagament que, a l'edat mitjana, un senyor territorial podia exigir a un pagès que tenia l'obligació de treballar les seves terres quan aquest volia abandonar-les.
> 
> n. m.
> Pagès que estava obligat a treballar les terres d'un domini senyorial, les quals només podia abandonar si pagava al seu senyor una remença o redempció.


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## Bevj

Hello orca,
Whether you want to or not, please open a new thread for each question. (Rule 2)
I agree with sound shift as to 'remences' but a native speaker will have to help you with your first phrase.


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## Quiviscumque

"Constitució": any Bill presented by the Count of Barcelona to the Corts (parliament) and approved by them:
Catalan constitutions - Wikipedia
"Com a molts entenents": first words of the constitution: "Com a molts entenents a fer mal," etc.
"Remences": a long chapter of Catalan history. See Remensa - Wikipedia (catalan and spanish versions are much more complete).


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## Bevj

The source is clear, but what actually is the translation of '_Com a molts entenents_', please?


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## Quiviscumque

I wish I knew  My knowledge of present Catalan is scarce, so guess about Medieval one... I beg Catalan philologists here to answer the question.

Besides, that constitution was superseded by the "pacto arbitral de Guadalupe", so it is not collected in official compilations.

In any case, the original poster should study a textbook on Catalan history, I think. Otherwise all the matter will be impossible to understand.


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## orca

Hi,
thanks for trying to help. I happen to know the historical background, but I need to translate the exact words. Here is my context, from Los Herederos de la Tierra by Falcones:

En las últimas Cortes de Barcelona, las de 1413, un año después del nombramiento de Fernando como soberano, en Caspe, se dictó una ley que endurece la situación de los _remences_. En lugar de liberarse se han visto todavía màs esclavizados. En esa nueva constitución, "*Com a molts entenents*", se sanciona con graves penas que pueden llegar hasta la muerte a los _remences _que amenacen o causen cualquier revuelta.

If anyone knows what they mean, just the literal translation, it would really help me.
Thanks again.


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## Quiviscumque

If you are translating the novel, the best option is to keep the words "Com a molts entenents". In fact, it is proper noun; the exact meaning of these words does not matter. That is the way bills were called: by means of their first words (that not always made complete sense). The Catholic Church follows this convention even now; you say in Spanish "la constitución 'Lumen gentium'", y no "la constitución 'Luz de las gentes'".


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## ernest_

This is the whole sentence, which is quite long:

_... e si dins lo dit any no sera tornat lo dit hom de remença, puga lo dit senyor donar contra ell clam de pau, e de treua; e si, apres que lo senyor se haura apropriat los bes per vigor de la present constitutio, per los dits homens de remeça, o no de remença, de paraula, o en scrits, per si, o per interposada persona seran fetas menassas, o batimets, o oposadas creus, o fetas fossas, o altres senyals de morts, o menassas designants contra los dits senyors, o lurs procuradors, o aquells qui los dits bens tindra, en los dits casos, o quiscun de aquells volem, que las penas, e processos contenguts en la constituctio feta per lo Rey en Ferrado pare nostre de gloriosa memoria en la Cort de Barcelona, començant, _Com a molts entenents_ a fer mal, ????. hajan loc, e contra los demutdits puga esser pro ceit juxta ferie, e tenor de la dita costitutio, la qual als dits casos, e quiscun daquells volem esser estesa._

Now, I believe "entenent" means "knowledgeable", and "entenent a ..." means "having knowledge in...". So, in my opinion, "molts entenents a fer mal" probably means "many evil doers" or "many criminals". The entire sentence is unclear to me, though. "Com a molts entenents a fer mal" is written in slanted letters and followed by a strange thing that looks like a seal of some sort and a full stop.


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## orca

Thank you all for trying. I get the idea. My intention was to leave it like this, but to transliterate it to Hebrew and give a very short footnote for which I needed to understand the general idea.
All in all you've been very helpful, so thanks again, I know there are far more important issues that probably keep your minds busy these days... 
All the best.


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