# A single word for pork livers, hearts, etc.?



## boozer

Hi, friends. I am translating the latest additions to the menu of a good local restaurant - just doing a friend a favour really. One of the menu items is.... errrm, well, pork 'giblets'. However, a pig is not a chicken so I wonder if there is a collective noun for the pig's livers, hearts, etc?


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, boo.

"offal", maybe?

GS


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## boozer

Maybe, Giorgio. The dictionary says this is mostly American. I myself would not have understood it without a quick sneaky look at some big thick dictionary.


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## velisarius

"Offal" is used in the UK too, and would definitely be known by oldies and foodies. The popularity of offal has risen in recent years. It is more all-inclusive than liver, heart and kidneys though. Some people might be put off by the word "offal" on a menu. I'd like to hear other opinions.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

A.E., boo? You sure? I've always thought the A.E. for B.E. _offal_ was _variety meat_, but I may be completely wrong.

GS


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## Andygc

In BE, at least, offal includes the intestines, so it would not be an attractive term to use on a menu. We're not great intestine eaters here (not knowingly - who knows what is in a sausage?). We don't have a collective word that covers just the bits we eat knowingly - heart, liver, kidneys, etc.

(Cross-posted with velisarius)


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## Beryl from Northallerton

I have no objection to 'offal', and would understand it to mean those bits to which you refer, and maybe a few more insides besides. 

The trick to writing a menu, though, is to know your audience, or, in this case, your clientèle. 

Often, the best way of making this sort of thing sound good to BrE ears is to write it in foreign, and here, I'd say the language of choice would be Giorgio's. 

(Variety meats is hilarious)


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Ah, ah, . No, the language _par excellence_ is French!

I know that in Rome they have this thing they're mad about called "pagliata" (mostly veal intestine, though). 
I'd choose to starve to death.

GS


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## boozer

Well, I don't know - Wikipedia says 'especially in the United States'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offal
... and goes on to metion the word 'entrails', which happens to bother me a bit, just like it does Andy.  (Now that I think of it, 'offals' does ring a distant bell...)


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## ewie

Hullo Mr B.  I'd call them _postmortem porcine intestinal edible __byproducts_, or _offal_ for short.


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## kool-wind

'Entrails' is definitely unappetizing. A real no-no on a menu.

There is a French word that is commonly used and its translation is offal (mass noun, no 's'). It doesn't have quite the same ring to it though.


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## jacqztabz

in my country, we term them _laman-loob _or innards.


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## Cagey

I know those as 'organ meats' which I would much rather eat than 'offal'. 

(I wouldn't recognize 'variety meats', except that I would assume it was a euphemism for something unappealing.)

*Added*: On this chart which shows all that is edible in a pig, they call all these parts collectively _'innards'_, as jacqtzabz suggested above.  _Innards_ is better than i_ntestines_, in my opinion. 
----> Pig / Pork Cuts, on Clovegarden.com. 

(The spleen is called 'melt' or 'pork melt' (  )  but they just have the ordinary names for the rest, unfortunately.)


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## Beryl from Northallerton

I gather the heart, liver and lungs of an animal are collectively referred to as its _pluck_.


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## Andygc

Beryl from Northallerton said:


> I gather the heart, liver and lungs of an animal are collectively referred to as its _pluck_.


It still still won't look good on the menu:
"Pluck, kidneys and sweetbreads" - we're still struggling to find a single English word that's not"offal".


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## sound shift

I had nothing to add to the above suggestions, but I see from this article in "The Independent" that "odd bits" has been proposed. The term may be a little too frivolous for a "good" restaurant, though. (Anyway, boozer, I thought you were in the drinks department. ) Now I must get back to my breakfast of braised heart, fried kidneys and, er ... _sweetmeats._


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## Rover_KE

Beryl from Northallerton said:


> I gather the heart, liver and lungs of an animal are collectively referred to as its _pluck_.



Correct. 

Additionally, the lungs are also called _lights_ and lambs' testicles (not quite off-topic as the title included 'etc') are _lambs' fries_ (click here for tasty recipes).


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## natkretep

There are some places that advertise 'pigs' viscera' here. I think that would include the heart, lung, stomach and liver. I always have a good laugh when I see that. I wouldn't mind _innards_
 though.

I'm intending to serve some haggis tomorrow, and I'd be willing to say that it contains sheep's innards. And yes, Beryl's word _pluck_​ is also used for haggis.


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## boozer

I am beginning to like innards despite its sound that seems to suggest inclusion of guts.  I also like Cagey's organ meats and I think this is the term I am going to use. Thank you all of you friends - very helpful as always.


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## Mahantongo

boozer said:


> Well, I don't know - Wikipedia says 'especially in the United States'
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offal
> ... and goes on to metion the word 'entrails', which happens to bother me a bit, just like it does Andy.  (Now that I think of it, 'offals' does ring a distant bell...)


Actually, Wikipedia says the opposite.  The sentence begins "_Offal, also called *variety meats* or *organ meats,* especially in the United States_,...."  The phrase "especially in the United States" refers to the phrase "also called variety meats or organ meats" -- that is, the terms "variety meats" and "organ meats" are especially common in the United States, which is what Giorgio Spizzi said above in post #5.

As "offal" in the US has an extremely pejorative connotation, I would never expect to see it on a menu, or in a butcher shop.  I would instead expect to see the sweetbreads or kidneys listed by their individual names, and if grouped together at all, called "variety meats" or "organ meats."

Note, by the way, that the not-uncommon Southern U.S. dish called "chitterlings" (pronounced "chitlins") is made of pig intestines, and depending on the neighborhood,  you can easily find them all wrapped up and ready to take home in an ordinary local supermarket in many parts of the US...


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## PaulQ

"*Chitterling*" (also in the plural) are also found in the UK:
OED





> chitterling, n.1.  a. The smaller intestines of beasts, as of the pig, esp. as an article of food prepared by frying or boiling. Sometimes filled with mince-meat or force-meat, as a kind of sausage.


I used to live in the northeast of England and, in the 1970s it was/they were very popular.

The problem with menus is that even slight variations in preparation will create a new name.


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## JustKate

_Offal_ and _organ meats_ are the terms I'm most familiar with. I think _organ meats_ is far more likely to occur on a menu, though actually what's most likely is something much more specific, such as "calf liver" or "chicken gizzards" (both of which my husband loves, for some mysterious reason) or, as mentioned by Mahantongo, "chitlins."


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## ewie

If I heard/read 'variety meats', I'd think of something totally different ~ cold cuts / cooked meats.

_Organ meats_ certainly gets the message across ... but I find it as hideous as you AE folks find _offal_.

I don't think there's going to be a one-size-fits-all compromise on this

(Chicken gizzards are _edible_?)


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## lucas-sp

So much bad advice here. The word you definitely want is *offal*. This is the current word of choice for chefs cooking with organ meats for ethical or other reasons, as you can see here: http://www.offalgood.com/. You could also just translate the dish's name as something like "snout-to-tail selection."


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## boozer

Right, so whatever I write someone is going to be disgusted.  And the worst thing is that in my country offals/organ meats are a big item on the menu - one with many subcategories and various preparation methods.


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## owlman5

boozer said:


> Right, so whatever I write someone is going to be disgusted.  And the worst thing is that in my country offals/organ meats are a big item on the menu - one with many subcategories and various preparation methods.


For what it's worth, Boozer, I agree with Cagey: "organ meats" sounds more appetizing than "offal".  Perhaps my dislike of "offal" derives from its association with other meanings: "rubbish", and "decomposing matter".


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## PaulQ

owlman5 said:


> For what it's worth, Boozer, I agree with Cagey: "organ meats" sounds more appetizing than "offal".


"Organ" is a little too vague and medical for me... there are some unappetizing organs in a body. I'm voting for 'offal' as there's a small chance that the diner won't immediately associate it with what it is. The alternative is to translate the food, or its description as a title, into French - the language of the kitchen: _poumons lyonaisse_s sounds much better than fried lungs/organ with onions.


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## Loob

Boozer, perhaps it would help if you told us the recipe?

At the moment, my vote goes to "chitterlings", simply because it's such a nice word.


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## boozer

The recipe - well, it is just pork (heart/liver/not even sure about kidney - separately or mixed, cut into pieces) baked in a clay pot with butter, savoury, red pepper and bay leaf.


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## sound shift

Why don't you just give the Bulgarian name and follow that with a description that includes a list of the various bits (omitting the "not sure about...", of course ) for English speakers? Like that, you wouldn't need to use a generic name. I'm not squeamish; I'd eat it!


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## PaulQ

boozer said:


> The recipe - well, it is just pork (heart/liver/not even sure about kidney - separately or mixed, cut into pieces) baked in a clay pot with butter, savoury, red pepper and bay leaf.


Sounds like a tagine/tajine.


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## ewie

sound shift said:


> (omitting the "not sure about...", of course )


 
Don't forget the _May contain__ Probably contains Almost certainly contains traces of horse_




lucas-sp said:


> "snout-to-tail selection."


This also gets my vote.  (If we're voting.)


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## JustKate

Hmmm, I'm starting to think that how you feel about the meats in question might affect how you feel about what general to name to call them by. _Offal_ sounds, well, awful  to me, but then so does _organ meats_, and the main reason is that I dislike all these things (liver, kidneys, gizzards, etc.) a lot. You could call them "rainbows and chocolate chips" and if I knew that term meant "fried livers and gizzards," I still wouldn't like the name.

My suggestion would be to follow Sound Shift's advice and use the Bulgarian name, and then in the description, list what's actually in there (hearts, livers, whatever). People such as me who dislike all that stuff will then know to avoid it, and people who don't will know what they're getting.


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## Cagey

Loob said:


> Boozer, perhaps it would help if you told us the recipe?
> 
> At the moment, my vote goes to "chitterlings", simply because it's such a nice word.


For an American audience, at least, you don't want chitterlings.  They are made of a quite specific part of a pig's intestinal tract: CLICK.  

Its quite a process to clean them.  After they are cooked, they look something like this: CLICK. 
Unless that is what you are offering, you need another word.

(I agree with the suggestion that you give a name to the dish and then name [some of] the ingredients.)


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## ewie

owlman5 said:


> Perhaps my dislike of "offal" derives from its association with other meanings: "rubbish", and "decomposing matter".


I'm really surprised to read this (I was surprised earlier but forgot to mention it): to me _offal_ means nothing more than 'internal parts of animal that you can eat'  Presumably it's the same ~ or at least primarily the same ~ for other BE-speakers ...


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## Loob

Cagey said:


> For an American audience, at least, you don't want  [en]chitterlings[/ens].  They are made of a quite specific part of a  pig's intestinal tract: CLICK.


Ah, yes, now I know we're only talking about heart & liver & maybe-kidneys, I'll clearly have to rescind my vote for chitterlings.

I also agree with Mr Shift.


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## JustKate

ewie said:


> I'm really surprised to read this (I was surprised earlier but forgot to mention it): to me _offal_ means nothing more than 'internal parts of animal that you can eat'  Presumably it's the same ~ or at least primarily the same ~ for other BE-speakers ...



I know that it can mean "edible internal parts of an animal," but in AmE, what it usually means is "*all* internal parts, whether they are edible or not." It has therefore acquired the connotation, particularly outside the meat-processing industry, of "the parts of the animal that are disposed of in some way."


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## boozer

JustKate said:


> _Offal_ sounds, well, awful  to me...


To me it sounds like an Arab trying to describe the _Offal _Office of the US President.  (that is because they don't have the /v/ sound in Arabic)

I cannot use the Bulgarian word because it is the word I am looking for. Oh, you want me to just write the Bulgarian name in English? I have been trying very hard to avoid this. 

Anyway, if any of you ever come across the term 'pork organ meats' in a Bulgarian restaurant, you are in the restaurant in question - it's a done deal now.


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## Loob

Is it really/truly/absolutely a done deal, boozer?

"Pork organ meats" would make me think of something like this.  Still, it *would* make me smile


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## boozer

Loob said:


> Is it really/truly/absolutely a done deal, boozer?


Well, not irreversibly. I could tell my friend to ignore my earlier message and send him a new one. What shall I say without causing people to barf?


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## Loob

Well, I really liked your previous description





boozer said:


> The recipe - well, it is just pork  (heart/liver/not even sure about kidney - separately or mixed, cut into  pieces) baked in a clay pot with butter, savoury, red pepper and bay  leaf.


Perhaps - whether or not you give the Bulgarian name - you could say something like "Pig's heart, liver & kidney baked in a clay pot with butter, savoury, red pepper and bay  leaf."  I would definitely find that quite appetising!

(I'm not sure about "savoury" - does that mean "herbs" or perhaps "spices"?)


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## owlman5

ewie said:


> I'm really surprised to read this (I was surprised earlier but forgot to mention it): to me _offal_ means nothing more than 'internal parts of animal that you can eat'  Presumably it's the same ~ or at least primarily the same ~ for other BE-speakers ...


My first encounters with the word occurred during childhood when I read "offal" used in descriptions of unpleasant places where it meant something like "gross stuff that's probably organic", Ewie.  I refreshed that understanding with a visit to WR's definitions for the word.

I was equally surprised to learn that members who speak British English don't care much for "organ meats".  The term does sound very similar to the jocular "mystery meat" used by me and my friends when we're confronted with some dish containing flesh from some unrecognizable animal. Sound Shift's "name the organs specifically" suggestion makes sense.


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## Beryl from Northallerton

I'm guessing that this is savoury the herb ( - big in Bulgarian cooking).

Satureja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I agree that spelling out the ingredients is the way to go. I would have a similar reaction to 'organ meats' as Loob (although my reaction would probably be less charitable) _(Cross-posted)_


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## Andygc

Beryl from Northallerton said:


> I'm guessing that this is savoury the herb ( - big in Bulgarian cooking).
> 
> Satureja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> I agree that spelling out the ingredients is the way to go. I would have a similar reaction to 'organ meats' as Loob (although my reaction would probably be less charitable) _(Cross-posted)_


While we're spelling out the ingredients, it's "savory" in both BE and AE, not to be confused with the AE adjective.


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## velisarius

For what it's worth, I agree with Loob:

>>Perhaps - whether or not you give the Bulgarian name - you could say something like "Pig's heart, liver & kidney baked in a clay pot with butter, savoury, red pepper and bay leaf." I would definitely find that quite appetising!

That(as opposed to the other suggestions) actually had my mouth watering.


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## boozer

I've been spelling it like this ever since I learned to write.  Must be a case of hypercorrection - particularly easy to develop for someone who routinely spells all similar adjectives and nouns with '-our-'. I must have seen the 'savory' spelling many times, invariably assuming it was American.


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## sound shift

JustKate said:


> _Offal_ sounds, well, awful  to me.


Here starts my campaign to get _the_ _cot-caught merger _renamed _the_ _offal-awful merger_. It's so much more colo(u)rful.


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## RM1(SS)

You mean _offal_ and _awful_ are supposed to be pronounced differently?


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## london calling

RM1(SS) said:


> You mean _offal_ and _awful_ are supposed to be pronounced differently?


They are in standard BE, yes.


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## JustKate

sound shift said:


> Here starts my campaign to get _the_ _cot-caught merger _renamed _the_ _offal-awful merger_. It's so much more colo(u)rful.


Ooh, I like it. We could have a lot more fun with that than with _cot-caught_.

And even though I dislike all those meats very, very much, the description doesn't sound half-bad. Plus, I think even lovers of offal/organ meats prefer to know what sorts of offal/organ meats they are going to eat in a given dish.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

London's right, as usual  . In particular:

"offal" /ˈɒf(ə)l /
"awful" (= terrible) /ˈɔːf(ə)l / 
"awful" (= inspiring awe) /ˈɔːfʊl /

where (ə) means the _schwa_ can either be pronounced or omitted in pronunciation. 

GS 
As an afterthought: the "pair" _offal_ and _awful _(= inspiring awe) is therefore _not_ a "minimal pair", whereas _offal_ and _awful _(= terrible) is.


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## boozer

Quite frankly, Giorgio, I do not believe in this distinction - I mean Awful the Awful and Awful the Terrible. 

When I speak carefully, I always say /ˈɔːfʊl / and in fast speech it is /ˈɔːfəl /.


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## RM1(SS)

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> "awful" (= terrible) /ˈɔːf(ə)l /


This, I think, is the way I pronounce both _awful_ and _offal_.


And yes, ewie, breaded and deep-fried chicken gizzards are delicious.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Sorry, friends. What I wrote is inaccurate.
I checked with D. Jones's _English Pronouncing Dictionary_ (15th edition) and I discovered this:

"awful" (= terrible) /ˈɔːf(ə)l /, /ˈɔːfʊl / 
"awful" (= inspiring awe) /ˈɔːfʊl /

In other words, in the _traditional RP_ presented — I'm not saying prescribed, of course — by the late D. Jones the schwa-ed version seems to be restricted to "awful" (= terrible), while a "fuller" vowel /ʊ/ seems to be possible for both meanings.
Obviously, to err is human, and D. Jones was a human being. 

GS


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