# jean-foutre



## srt86hil

Le contexte: En désignant une équipe de foot - "Ils sont nuls, une équipe de jean-foutres"

La seule traduction que j'ai trouvée qui garde le sens de 'incapabilité' serait "fuckwits" mais je sais bien que c'est trop fort, donc je cherche un mot moins vulgaire. Je dirais que le français est plutôt familier que vulgaire...

Merci bcp d'avance!


*Moderator Note: Several threads have been merged to create this one.*


----------



## JiPiJou

Mon dictionnaire propose "good for nothing", qui me semble bien faible. Mais si vous voulez quelque chose de passe-partout, ça peut convenir. Personnellement je trouve le terme français assez fort.


----------



## srt86hil

Thanks for the suggestion! I'd agree with you that 'good for nothing' is too bland, although it might well have been a harsher insult a few decades ago!


----------



## JiPiJou

What about "bugger", "jerk" ? Perhaps it is old-fashioned.


----------



## srt86hil

Bugger and jerk aren't quite appropriate for this context to my mind, because they would normally be used where the person in question has caused some offence to the speaker. Is the French term old-fashioned or still in current usage?


----------



## srt86hil

I think maybe "morons" is the closest I'm going to get, even though this has a sense of lacking intelligence,  rather than being incapable.


----------



## JiPiJou

srt86hil said:


> Is the French term old-fashioned or still in current usage?



Good question ! I don't suppose young people, teenagers would use it or even know exactly what it means, though they would probably associate it with the very common « Va t'faire foutre ! ».

It seems the word has a history. One can imagine old colonels speaking about their subordinates « Tous des jean-foutre ! ». My dictionary says it was already used in the 18th century. It is found in Courteline's plays. I would say it has a sort of elegant vulgarity, if you see what I mean. An uneducated person would not know it.

 You say you found it in football. Sports commentators are not old people. So it must be commonly used to-day. Actually, I googled the word and I found an inordinate number of uses in the world of sport !!!

So : NO. The word is not old-fashioned. But it is not everybody who would use it.

That does not help very much for a translation, I am afraid !


----------



## srt86hil

Interesting... Surely if it is associated with 'va te faire foutre', then it should be classed as really quite vulgar, since I would translate the former as 'fuck you', but I was under the impression that a rendition involving the word 'fuck' here would be inappropriate.


----------



## Novanas

If you were in Ireland, you could say "a useless lot of gobshites".  I find that a fabulous expression myself.


----------



## JiPiJou

No, no ! I said *young people* would associate it with that just because it is the only similar-sounding word they know. But people who use "jean-foutre" knowingly would *not *think that. So, NO, it has too much of a history for it to be vulgar (even, of course, if the etymology is vulgar). It has acquired a sort of respectability by being used by writers and educated people. I agree that using "fuck" *would not do at all*.

Another dictionary gives "*jackass*".


----------



## srt86hil

Ah thanks for that clarification! I too would delight at using the word 'gobshites' but fear it wouldn't be suitable in this context!


----------



## Mezzofanti

The last time I had to translate this word I ended up using "jackass", so I agree with JiPiJou.


----------



## JiPiJou

Several politicians mention in their Memoirs that general De Gaulle, during a reception at the Palais de l'Elysée when he was president, said, *« On peut        faire des discours sur l’Europe supranationale. Ce n’est pas difficile :        il est facile d’être un Jean-foutre »

*I did mention it was a word one would expect to hear from "old colonels" (Post # 7) ! But general De Gaule would never have used an "F-word". That shows the type of persons who would use "jean-foutre". As I said, it is an elegant vulgarity spoken by educated people.

That should help you choose the adequate English word.


----------



## akaAJ

Ah, chienlit !  Perhaps "screwups" has the proper level of force and vulgarity.


----------



## pointvirgule

a team of layabouts, slackers, loafers, bums, goofs, lazybones, etc.


----------



## srt86hil

JiPiJou said:


> Several politicians mention in their Memoirs that general De Gaulle, during a reception at the Palais de l'Elysée when he was president, said, *« On peut        faire des discours sur l’Europe supranationale. Ce n’est pas difficile :        il est facile d’être un Jean-foutre »
> 
> *I did mention it was a word one would expect to hear from "old colonels" (Post # 7) ! But general De Gaule would never have used an "F-word". That shows the type of persons who would use "jean-foutre". As I said, it is an elegant vulgarity spoken by educated people.
> 
> That should help you choose the adequate English word.




Very helpful, thanks a lot!


----------



## Calvados

"_Mon ami, tout hussard qui n'est pas mort à trente ans est un jean-foutre_."

This is supposedly a direct quote from General Lasalle after having had more than a few drinks. Colleagues of mine on another forum are discussing whether 'jean-foutre' is better translated by very crude 21st century English or by a word such as 'blackguard,' which would have been far more insulting in the 19th century than it is today.

What do native French speakers think? Is this a term of crudity or is it a rather more innocuous word? My personal view is that 'blackguard,' for example, perfectly conveys the pejorative sense without causing any offense to readers of a translation.


----------



## mirifica

Bonjour, Calvados,

Harrap's says for "jean-foutre" : good for nothing, which is "weaker' than blackguard. Blackguard seems to me a bit more offensive than the French term.


----------



## Calvados

Merci beaucoup, Mirifica,

il me semble que vous avez raison - c'est ça que j'ai donné aux collègues comme avis...


----------



## patrickcard421

Hi Calvados, 
There is a sexual hint in "Jean-foutre". You may know that "Foutre" means also sperm. I would suggest: "Jerk" but here, we loose the slacker side...
"Lazy jerk", maybe...


----------



## Surfin' Bird

patrickcard421 said:


> Hi Calvados,
> There is a sexual hint in "Jean-foutre". You may know that "Foutre" means also sperm. I would suggest: "Jerk" but here, we loose the slacker side...
> "Lazy jerk", maybe...



En revanche, je ne vois pas de référence à la fainéantise ou la paresse dans "jean-foutre" et je me dis que, si l'on tient à employer "jerk" (pourquoi pas ?), "useless jerk" serait probablement plus proche de l'original.

Sinon, il y a aussi cette jolie formule, "a waste of space"...


----------



## Calvados

Gentlemen, thank you.

I agree that there are subtle levels of meaning in the expression. This is a good example of the issue whether to translate an expression in a similar manner to which it would have been used at the time of the original - in which case 'blackguard,' 'good for nothing' or 'wastrel' would be good - or to represent it in language that will resonate with a modern reader - in which case 'jerk,' 'waste of space' or even 'waste of skin' (my favourite!) would also serve.

My point of contention with my colleagues on the other forum is to find a form of words that reflects the 19th century impact of the mild insult.

Thank you for your generous assistance.


----------



## patrickcard421

*"En revanche, je ne vois pas de référence à la fainéantise ou la paresse dans "jean-foutre" et je me dis que, si l'on tient à employer "jerk" (pourquoi pas ?), "useless jerk" serait probablement plus proche de l'original."*
*Sinon, il y a aussi cette jolie formule, "a waste of space"... *

La référence à la fainéantise tient à l'apparenté du mot foutre avec "s'en foutre" ou "M'enfoutiste". A mon sens, les deux connotations (sexuelles et d'oisiveté) existent dans le mot "Jean-foutre", mais ce n'est que mon point de vue. 

Sinon, votre point de litige est interessant. Faut-il contribuer au dépaysement temporel par l'emploi de termes contextuels ou mieux toucher les lecteurs de 2010 avec les termes du moment ? Pour ma part, j'opterai pour la seconde qui, à mon sens, offre à la conscience du lecteur une référence moderne qui, de par son experience personnelle du terme, va le toucher davantage. Mais ce n'est que mon point de vue. Good luck.

P.s: "Useless jerk" fonctionne aussi trés bien.


----------



## Surfin' Bird

patrickcard421 said:


> La référence à la fainéantise tient à l'apparenté du mot foutre avec "s'en foutre" ou "M'enfoutiste". A mon sens, les deux connotations (sexuelles et d'oisiveté) existent dans le mot "Jean-foutre", mais ce n'est que mon point de vue.



Point de vue fort bien défendu. Soit !


----------



## Uncle Bob

I don't think calling a professional footballer a "blackguard" would have any effect - he wouldn't know the meaning! I don't think I have ever heard anyone use it and, as pointed out earlier, it is to be found in 19th century literature - usually to describe someone who has tried to get his wicked way with an innocent young lady!
To anglicise Seneca's suggestion: "a useless load of shits" or "useless shits" or, less vugar, perhaps, "useless sods" may do, though these are mid- to late-20th century.


----------



## mirifica

Bonjour,

I don't think there is any sexual meaning , since foutre is the same as je m'en fous : couldnt care less.


----------



## patrickcard421

mirifica said:


> Bonjour, I don't think there is any sexual meaning , since foutre is the same as je m'en fous : couldnt care less.



Trouvé dans wiktionary : Du latin vulgaire *_fŭttĕre_ (avec redoublement expressif de _t_), en latin classique _futere_ (« baiser une femme, copuler »), infinitif du verbe _futuo_.​_"Elle *foutit* saintement avec ce saint homme pendant deux ans et le mit au tombeau. Cependant, il la dota …_ (Restif de la Bretonne _Nicolas l’anti-Justine ou les délices de l’amour_)"


----------



## the pensive wombat

Hi Everyone 

In Australia we sometimes say 'no-hoper'. It is not as strong a 'fuck-wit' or even 'dickhead'.


----------



## mirifica

Bonjour,

Jean-foutre has no sexuel connotation. It is foutre de "J'en ai rien à foutre" = could not care less.


----------



## the pensive wombat

That reminds me, mirifica. 

My son uses the rather inelegant expression: 'He couldn't give Jack shit' meaning: 'He couldn't care less.'

As in French, English can use a prénom.


----------



## mirifica

Bonjour, the pensive wombat,

In jean-foutre, foutre may be the same as doing nothing  : ne rien foutre : ex : il est doué mais ne fout rien à l'école.


----------



## Jean-Michel Carrère

lazy buggers


----------



## the pensive wombat

Thank you again, mirifica.

Jean-Michel Carrère. That could apply to the sentence mirifica gave us - Il est doué mais ne fout rien à l'école. My French isn't good enough to pass an opinion on whether 'lazy buggers' is a useful wider translation of 'jean-foutre'!


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

Seneca the Duck said:


> If you were in Ireland, you could say "a useless lot of gobshites".  I find that a fabulous expression myself.



A useless shower of gobshites is even more apt.


----------



## mgarizona

It's nice to at least see the Jean=Jack translation at work in 'Jackass,' though of course that 'Jack' means 'male of the species' rather than 'man who is a(n) ____.'

The Robert dates Jean-foutre back to the 1650s so I'm thinking modern slang expressions hardly serve. 

The standard English equivalent if you enjoy the structure Jean-foutre is Tom Fool.

"A pack of Tom Fools"
"A bunch of Tom Fools"

As the original poster said, not an expression "the kids today" are likely to use, but they'd have no problem understanding its meaning.


----------



## the pensive wombat

We are in the middle of an election campaign here so many of these phrases seem highly relevant ...


----------



## preciouspuppy

Slacker is the best, I think; conveys the sense of the person not caring about doing a good job, which is inherent in jean-foutre with its underlying allusion to je m'en fous.


----------



## the pensive wombat

I like 'slacker', thanks. I think the Aussie 'slack-arse' might fit also. 

Do you guys across the Pacific use 'slack-ass' in the same way?


----------



## Keith Bradford

I have seen _Jean-foutre _used as a translation of Hamlet's "rogue and peasant slave".  T'would be nice if some English football manager called his opponents that - Arsène Wenger for example...


----------



## Longlord

Knacker


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

A knacker would only be understood by Irish English speakers, and it doesn't really fit here.


----------



## preciouspuppy

Longlord said:


> Knacker


"scumbag" per Urban dictionary


----------



## guillaumedemanzac

All a bit out of date  = football - useless teams are just a bunch of wankers  = also has the Jean-foutre meaning - What a wanker!


----------



## joelooc

guillaumedemanzac said:


> a bunch of wankers


----------

