# Black and/or white - Order.



## Juan Nadie

Hello,

Once upon a time... Someone told me a little story related to the "black and/white" order and the hustle that the translation did (from English to Spanish).

It is my understanding that in English you usually have - Black and/or white.
In Spanish we usally say - Blanco y/o negro (White and/or black).

I think that order is due to alphabetical order from first letters: B before W, B before N.

So, how is it in your language?

Regards


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## ilocas2

In Czech when we say Black and white we put always black before white

*černá a bílá*

č is after b in alphabet


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## Natalisha

*Russian:* черное и белое (black and white).


Juan Nadie said:


> I think that order is due to alphabetical order from first letters: B before W, B before N.
> 
> So, how is it in your language?


This "rule" doesn't work in the Russian language.


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## Swites

In swedish it's svart (black) before vitt (white).


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## Benzene

Hi *Juan Nadie!*

In Italian we say "bianco e/o nero".

Bye,

Benzene


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## bibax

> In Czech when we say Black and white we put always black before white ...


I love the categorical statements. 

In Czech we can say it both ways, for example:

černobílý film = b & w film;
černobílá fotografie = b & w photography;
černobílé vidění světa = b & w vision of the world;

but we can say also

bíločerné kotě = w & b kitten;
bíločerný kostým = w & b costume;

BTW, try to google the following expressions in English:

"white and black kitten" or "white and black costume"


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## Agró

*Basque*:

Txuri ta beltz (white and black).


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## Rallino

In Turkish:

*Siyah ve beyaz* - black and white


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## ilocas2

Rallino said:


> In Turkish:
> 
> *Siyah ve beyaz* - black and white



I thought that *black* is *kara* and *white* is *ak* in Turkish ?


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## ilocas2

bibax said:


> I love the categorical statements.
> 
> In Czech we can say it both ways, for example:
> 
> černobílý film = b & w film;
> černobílá fotografie = b & w photography;
> černobílé vidění světa = b & w vision of the world;
> 
> but we can say also
> 
> bíločerné kotě = w & b kitten;
> bíločerný kostým = w & b costume;
> 
> BTW, try to google the following expressions in English:
> 
> "white and black kitten" or "white and black costume"



OK


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## catlady60

In English, we say *black and white.*

_"a black and white cat"_ or "It's all in black and white (clear detailed)."


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## Favara

In Catalan it's *blanc i negre* (white and black).


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## Orlin

bibax said:


> I love the categorical statements.
> 
> In Czech we can say it both ways, for example:
> 
> černobílý film = b & w film;
> černobílá fotografie = b & w photography;
> černobílé vidění světa = b & w vision of the world;
> 
> but we can say also
> 
> bíločerné kotě = w & b kitten;
> bíločerný kostým = w & b costume;
> 
> BTW, try to google the following expressions in English:
> 
> "white and black kitten" or "white and black costume"


 
In Bulgarian all this is valid: the normal word order is черно и бяло (contrary to alphabetical) and the compound adjective is normally черно-бял, but in some cases (e. g. for a kitten or a costume) бяло-черен is also possible.


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## Juan Nadie

Thank you everyone.

I am guessing the alphabet in some languages (correct me if my guess is wrong):

*Spanish*: *b*lanco before *n*egro. (W&B)
*Swedish*: *s*vart before *v*itt. (B&W)
*Italian:* *b*ianco before *n*ero. (W&B)
*English*: *b*lack before *w*hite. (B&W)
*Catalan*: *b*lanc before *n*egre. (W&B)

*Basque*: *T*xuri after *b*eltz. (W&B)
*Bulgarian*: *ч*ерно after *б*яло. (B&W)
*Czech*: *č*erná after *b*ílá. (B&W)
*Russian:* *ч*ерное after *б*елое. (B&W)
*Turkish*: *S*iyah after *b*eyaz. (B&W) Though I am interested in what ilocas2 wrote about kara and ak, so if someone could answer that part it would be great.

But in Bulgarian and Czech the 'normal' order can change in some sentences, isn't it?


If anyone else wants to make a contribution, it would be welcome.


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## Orlin

Juan Nadie said:


> But in Bulgarian and Czech the 'normal' order can change in some sentences, isn't it?


 
I can't say that change of order in Bulgarian is completely impossible, but бяло и черно definitely doesn't sound natural (at least to me).


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## bibax

> But in Bulgarian and Czech the 'normal' order can change in some sentences, isn't it?


Yes.

Maybe it is true for most languages. For example, in English you can read _"a beautiful long-haired *white-and-black* kitten"_.


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## Agró

Juan Nadie said:


> *Basque*: Txuri after beltz. (W&B)



Hola, Juan. You got this wrong.

Txuri: white
Beltz: black
*Txuri ta beltz*: _white and black_ (so, white *before* black)


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## bibax

> I can't say that change of order in Bulgarian is completely impossible, but бяло и черно definitely doesn't sound natural (at least to me).


Maybe it is the reason why the reverse order is often used in the advertisements. The unnatural order attracts attention _(Nabízíme bíločerné podprsenky. = We offer white-and-black bras)_.

And one more comment:

The "normal" order has also figurative meaning (e.g. black and white vision of the world). The reverse order merely describes a colour (e.g. white and black costume), at least in Czech.


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## Juan Nadie

Thank you for corrections.
bilbax, I am sure that it is normal to have whichever order in almost every language, but the 'normal' order is, I think, fixed. 
Orlin, thanks for clarifying the Bulgarian.
Agró, I was talking about T and B in the alphabetic order, T is after B in the Basque alphabet (I don't know the Basque alphabet). I added the (W&B) to indicate that it is (white and black). It may be a little bit confussing, but I just tried to make it as esquematic as possible. I am sorry if it looks wrong, it was not my intention 

Regards.


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## Agró

Juan Nadie said:


> Agró, I was talking about T and B in the alphabetic order, T is after B in the Basque alphabet (I don't know the Basque alphabet). I added the (W&B) to indicate that it is (white and black). It may be a little bit confussing, but I just tried to make it as esquematic as possible. I am sorry if it looks wrong, it was not my intention
> 
> Regards.


Disculpa. Lo he entendido mal yo.


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## Juan Nadie

Agró said:


> Disculpa. Lo he entendido mal yo.


Nada, así queda aclarado para futuras intervenciones en el hilo.


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## Rallino

ilocas2 said:


> I thought that *black* is *kara* and *white* is *ak* in Turkish ?


 
Yes those are synonyms, but not used much in spoken language, they're a little old-fashioned or litterary nowadays.


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## BlaCkWhItE

I don't think either that is because of the alphabetical order, because in French is Noir et Blanc (Black and White). But I think it's an interesting question.


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## Orlin

bibax said:


> And one more comment:
> 
> The "normal" order has also figurative meaning (e.g. black and white vision of the world). The reverse order merely describes a colour (e.g. white and black costume), at least in Czech.


 
True for Bulgarian too: бяло-черен can only describe colour while черно-бял (or черно и бяло) can often be figurative.


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## Rallino

BlaCkWhItE said:


> I don't think either that is because of the alphabetical order, because in French is Noir et Blanc (Black and White). But I think it's an interesting question.


 
I think in French it is so, because the reverse case would be twice as difficult to pronunce.

Blanc et noir

Nasal + vowel is a killer 

Whereas, _Noir et Blanc _is flowing easily =]


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## BlaCkWhItE

Rallino said:


> I think in French it is so, because the reverse case would be twice as difficult to pronunce.
> 
> Blanc et noir
> 
> Nasal + vowel is a killer
> 
> Whereas, _Noir et Blanc _is flowing easily =]


 

I don't think it is because of the pronounciation because for a french speaker it is not harder the other way, it makes no difference at all. But I can understand it might be more difficult for people who are not native.


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## apmoy70

Natalisha said:


> *Russian:* черное и белое (black and white).
> 
> This "rule" doesn't work in the Russian language.


The same with Greek. I've heard both «ασπρόμαυρη γάτα» (asp'romavri 'ɣata-->_white-black cat_) or «μαυρόασπρη γάτα» (mav'roaspri 'ɣata-->_black-white cat_).


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## jazyk

I think the most common way to say it in Portuguese is _preto e branco_ (black and white), but I think the other order is also used.


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## enoo

Rallino said:


> I think in French it is so, because the reverse case would be twice as difficult to pronunce.
> 
> Blanc et noir
> 
> Nasal + vowel is a killer
> 
> Whereas, _Noir et Blanc _is flowing easily =]



Well, both are easy for a French native speaker, and both are used.
In the color meaning (for a photograph, etc.) : Noir et blanc. (black and white)
In the figurative meaning (good/bad) : Blanc et/ou noir. (White and/or black).


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## Rallino

enoo said:


> Well, both are easy for a French native speaker, and both are used.
> In the color meaning (for a photograph, etc.) : Noir et blanc. (black and white)
> In the figurative meaning (good/bad) : Blanc et/ou noir. (White and/or black).



I see, thanks for the info. Mine was a wild guess anyway


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## ThomasK

In Dutch some people see everything *in zwart-wit (without en/of), *as opposed to in kleur (in colour), or with more shades/nuances.


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## Juan Nadie

Just an update, to collect the answers given in others languages.

In alphabetical order:
Spanish: blanco - negro. (W&B)
Swedish: svart - vitt. (B&W)
Italian: bianco - nero. (W&B)
English: black - white. (B&W)
Catalan: blanc - negre. (W&B)

In non-alphabetical order:
Basque: Txuri - beltz. (W&B)
Bulgarian: черно - бяло. (B&W)
Czech: černá - bílá. (B&W)
Russian: черное - белое. (B&W)
Turkish: Siyah - beyaz. (B&W)
French: Noir - Blanc. (B&W)
Portuguese: Preto - branco. (B&W)
Dutch: Zwart - wit. (B&W)

But in Czech the 'normal' order can change.
Greek has not a 'normal' order: ασπρό - μαυρη (W&B) or μαυρό - ασπρη (B&W)


Any further contribution is still welcome.


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## ThomasK

Great, Juan, that you make a survey. 

Now two questions: 
- general: could there be some logic in it? Phonetic for example? The word with the strongest consonant first (often a plosive, or maybe a voiced consonant) ??? 
- Czech _černobílý_ : is there a link with the place in Ukraine, Czernobyl? That is strange to me: that a place gets such a name...


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## rusita preciosa

ThomasK said:


> - Czech _černobílý_ : is there a link with the place in Ukraine, Czernobyl? That is strange to me: that a place gets such a name...


No connection.
Chernobyl = black state/existence/being
_černobílý = blackwhite_

The roots are completely different. The difference is better seen if in Cyrillic:
-б*ы*л/т- meaning of existence/beging
-б*е*л- meaning of whiteness


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## ilocas2

ThomasK said:


> - Czech _černobílý_ : is there a link with the place in Ukraine, Czernobyl? That is strange to me: that a place gets such a name...




Chernobyl - it means something like "black plant"
The stem "byl" appears in words related to plants and is not related to white colour.

Chernobyl in Ukrainian means litterally this plant - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_vulgaris


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for the information. I just wondered because I thought they were the same. Nope. But interesting, thanks !


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## rusita preciosa

ilocas2 said:


> Chernobyl - it means something like "black plant"
> The stem "byl" appears in words related to plants and is not related to white colour.


*byl* technically means "stem" (compare with modern Russian былинка /bylinka/- small piece of grass), which in turm comes from "being / creature". 
Chernobyl the plant literally means "black-stem"


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*: _musta ja valkoinen _= black and white


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## mataripis

Tagalog: Puti ba o Itim


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## rusita preciosa

mataripis said:


> Tagalog: Puti ba o Itim



mataripis,
As most of us here do not speak Tagalog, your latest contributions to the "all languages" forum do not add much value without the literal translation into English.


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