# kesekâğıdı



## Arabus

Merhaba beyler,

_kesekâğıdı _means "paper of bag." This doesn't sound very logical to me (why is it not_ *kâğıtkesesi_ ?)_.

_I guess this must be some kind of a noun compound?

Teşekkürat_,_


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## Rallino

Arabus said:


> Merhaba beyler,
> 
> _kesekâğıdı _means "paper of bag." This doesn't sound very logical to me (why is it not_ *kâğıtkesesi_ ?)_.
> 
> _I guess this must be some kind of a noun compound?



kesekağıdı means a bag made of paper. Like this.



> Teşekkürat,



Have you invented a new word?


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## macrotis

Arabus said:


> This doesn't sound very logical to me (why is it not_ *kâğıtkesesi_ ?)_._


You're right. "Logically" it should have been _kağıt kese_ (not *_kağıt kesesi_) but, you know, language doesn't follow rules of logic (although both *logic* and Arabic *mantık *come from roots meaning speaking.)


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## Arabus

Rallino said:


> Have you invented a new word?



No. This is an Ottoman word. It always appears in Syrian TV shows about the Ottoman period,

_Teşekkürat efendim _(Thanks sir)

Also when a Turkish Ottoman officer gets angry at someone he shouts:

_Idam edepsiz hasis_

I knew these phrases before I knew any Turkish, because they are simply Arabic


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## Arabus

macrotis said:


> You're right. "Logically" it should have been _kağıt kese_ (not *_kağıt kesesi_) but, you know, language doesn't follow rules of logic (although both *logic* and Arabic *mantık *come from roots meaning speaking.)



Thanks. Is this a special case for this word? Or is it common in Türkçe to have such inversed compounds?

Why can't we say *_kağıt kesesi_ like we say _Türk kahvaltısı_?


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## olric

"Kesekâğıdı" is a "galat-ı meşhur" (don't know its English equivalent). A mistake normalized by common usage. Kesekâğıdı is supposed to refer to the paper which is used for making bags. But the word began to be used as the bag itself.


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## macrotis

My mistake. I should have been clearer. It should have been _kağıt kese _*in this context*, meaning _paper bag_. _Kağıt kesesi_ may be used in another context meaning _bag for paper_, ie., _bag used for putting paper in_.


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## olric

As to "teşekkürat", the old timers were keen on using Arabic words as they wished and formed many new words out of their Arabic origins, as in "edebiyat" which I think in Arabic is "edebiyye".


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## seyif

Arabus said:


> _Idam edepsiz hasis_



I couldn't get the meaning of this. Are you sure it is "hasis"?


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## xebonyx

Me neither. I didn't understand the phrase as a whole.


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## Arabus

It is not a sentence. It is three words (execution (for you), and then two curses). I didn't know Turkish when I saw that so I couldn't have remembered complete sentences.

BTW yes I remember now the fact that Turkish used by Turks in Syria wasn't really Turkish but a blend of Turkish and Arabic. I think this is also true for the Ottoman language in general.


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## xebonyx

Arabus said:


> It is not a sentence. It is three words (execution (for you), and then two curses). I didn't know Turkish when I saw that so I couldn't have remembered complete sentences.


 That's why I said _phrase_.



> BTW yes I remember now the fact that Turkish used by Turks in Syria wasn't really Turkish but a blend of Turkish and Arabic. I think this is also true for the Ottoman language in general.


Yeah, it makes sense given the geographical factor.


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## kenjoluma

I thought _kesekâğıdı _is very logical...

"A paper in shape of box". How logical it is.


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## macrotis

kenjoluma said:


> I thought _kesekâğıdı _is very logical...
> 
> "A paper in shape of box". How logical it is.



Think it this way:

*Ambalaj kağıdı* is _package paper_ (paper used for packaging), not *_paper package_.
*Gazete kağıdı* is _newspaper paper_ (a piece of paper from a newspaper or paper used for printing newspaper), not *_paper newspaper_.
*Hediye kağıdı* is _gift paper_ (paper used for wrapping gifts), not *_paper gift_.
*Duvar kağıdı* is _wall paper_ (paper used for covering walls), not *_paper wall_.

Similarly, for *kese kağıdı* we should be able to say,
**Kese kağıdı* is _bag paper_ (paper used to make bags), not *_paper bag_.

But no, it is not correct. We should say,
*Kese kağıdı* is _paper bag_ (bag made of paper), not *_bag paper_.

This is why I think it doesn't follow the logic of similar constructions.


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## kenjoluma

My theory is, when Turkish people first saw (or invented) the paper bag, they focused the _material _of it rather than its usage. If so, it is not that illogical to call it _kesekâğıdı._

Turkish people know Turkish language the best. I mean, if they speak like that, there is (or *must be*) some logical reason. Too bad I'm not that good at Turkish linguistics to explain why.


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## macrotis

I agree. There must be a logical reason for why we use it that way but I don't know how the expression evolved. A possible scenario might be like this:

Someone produced low quality paper to be used for wrapping things. That sheet of paper was called _kese kağıdı_. People began to use the expression "kese kağıdına koymak/sarmak (put/wrap in bag paper)."

One day someone made bags of that paper and people said "kese kağıdı(ndan) pakete koy (put [it] in bag paper package)." Then "paket" dropped, "kese kağıdı" survived.

As I said, I don't know exactly how the expression evolved.


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## Arabus

I asked because I just wanted to make sure that this is not a kind of noun compound of the type common in IE languages (and extremely rare in Semitic).

In English, you can naturally say _paperbag _when you mean to say _bag (made) of paper_. In Arabic, however, such compounds do not virtually exist. You must always say _bag of paper;_ you can never say _paperbag_. I wanted to know where Turkish stands on this.


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