# Cross-cultural love



## Chaska Ñawi

There seem to be many, many forer@s here who are (or were) married, or in a serious relationship, with someone from a different culture.

Looking at all of us, we should have some really interesting stories about how we got around the potential misunderstandings and different habits.

From the Canadian - Bolivian perspective, a big issue was the completely different perception of time.

One phrase that gave me no end of trouble  was "I'll call you tomorrow".  I'd hear this, take it literally, and hang around the phone in a love-induced fog waiting for a call.  It took a long time to learn that the Bolivian translation of this was "If I'm still in the same mood I'll call you tomorrow ... or maybe the day after .... or next week ...."  As a result I thought my boyfriend at the time was completely unreliable, and he thought that I was completely anal.   

I could go on, but I'd rather hear your stories than tell mine ....


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## Whisky con ron

Good story, but aren't men from everywhere the same?  "I'll call you" means not much to them (I am told).

From the Scottish-Venezuelan perspective the worst thing is not complaining enough (Scottish) and apologising for things you haven't done....

I guess my beau could say that the latino temperament has been... interesting.... to deal with .  But there's been a lot of missunderstanding.  Like the other day I was ironing and he wanted something and I said in Spanish "pero no ves que estoy ocupada anda y búscalo tú!!" (which probably sounded like very fast and loud talking to him, actually) whilst I pointed at the iron that I was holding and waving in the air with the other hand.... He said that he had never been threatened with an iron before!... and I thought I was just talking normally!....

Oh the fun we have....


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## maxiogee

I'm an Irishman married to the same Irishwomen for the last 23 years. She grew up about 120 miles away from where I grew up and we occasionally misunderstand each other's usage of certain words.

Women are another culture altogether!


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## Fernando

I agree with maxiogee. The usual woman comment: 'I 'll call you tomorrow' means: 'I will torture you for weeks till you have no self-respect and YOU call me".


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## fenixpollo

I'm of two minds on the subject:

1) Male-female relations are difficult enough... why complicate things by adding in cultural differences?

2) Then again, male-female relations are so difficult, what's another difference to add to the mix? Really, cultural differences are small when compared to the differences between the sexes.

3) In the end, personality differences have much more relevance to a relationship than cultural differences, which become insignificant when two people have a connection. (_of course, you guys know that I have a "thing" about __personality_  

Wait... that's _three_ things! Isn't there some female saying about men's brains that would apply to this situation?


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## América

I completly agree with Fenixpollo, I had a mexican boyfriend, a spanish boyfriend and now I am married to a Bolivian that has grow up within the same culture as mine, and I still have the same problems that I used to have with my ex boyfrieds. So I think the problem is not the culture but rather the sex, I read a very interesting book "los hombres son de marte y las mujeres son de venus" and basicly it says that when men say something, women understand something completly different and viceversa. I think it is true, for me saying "I will call you tomorrow" means that I will do so, but when a man says "I will call you tomorrow" you don't have to wait for the call because maybe he will never do that and he will be waiting that YOU call him (as Fernando said) when you get tired of waiting.


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## Chaska Ñawi

OK, guys, I have now laughed long and hard at my own expense!

The truth is, I've been married so long to somebody who DOES do what he says he will that I'd forgotten that it was a gender issue.

Speaking of cross-cultural love, he's urban and I'm rural through and through - and we have more issues arising from that combination than ever rose through my relationship with a Bolivian!


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## vlazlo

I'm from the U.S. and my girlfriend is Colombian.  One major difference is our concept of family.  Don't get me wrong, I love my family (preferably at a comfortable distance) but my life does not revolve around them.  For her (and for every other Latina I have dated) family is soooooooooooooo important.  Another difference is the issue of space and personal independence.  I understand the reasons this tends (or seems to tend) to be so and I'm not critical, just noting a couple of differences.


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## jinti

I used to be married to a Colombian, and I used to get sooooo angry with him because of what we finally realized was a cultural difference.

Sometimes when we'd have an argument, he'd look down or away from me when I was telling him how upset I was over something he'd done. This just got me extra mad, until we finally figured out what was going on:

The way he was raised, if you did something wrong, looking down or away was like admitting it, while looking directly into the other person's eyes was considered defiant. So by not meeting my eyes, he was in essence saying "Yeah, ok, I shouldn't have done that." And he couldn't understand why I'd then escalate the situation into a big argument.

But the way I was raised, I was taught that when you do something wrong, you look the other person in the eyes when you talk about it/apologize. It's really hard to do sometimes, but you have to so that the other person can see that you're sincere and honest. Looking down or away when someone tells you that you screwed up is like saying you don't care or that your apology isn't for real. It's like saying "Geez, are you still talking? When is this going to be over? How much longer do I have to sit here listening to this crap?" (I can still remember my mother saying: "You look me in the eye when I'm talking to you!!") 

So I'd be angry about the original problem and then I'd think my husband was blowing me off, which would make me even angrier. It took us quite a few arguments to figure out what the real problem was -- these cultural things are so ingrained that sometimes you don't even realize what's driving your emotional reactions.


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## vlazlo

Oh yeah, another thing:  I think that N. Americans (me included) tend to be quite direct and no nonsense (good old Anglo-Saxon pragmatism) and this was a bit difficult for my Colombian girlfriend to get used to.


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## Juri

I'm Italian, married with Slovenian. I taught her Italian smoothly, she taught me slovene with more difficulty, and today when we write or translate,she corrects my Slo texts and I correct her italian letters.
Efficient, isn't it?


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## Whisky con ron

vlazlo, if you would allow me... To me, when I read you, your comments have an air of almost superiority that I cannot quite put my finger on.  

I hope I am wrong, else your relationship problems will not have anything to do with the cultures you are from!

Saludos,
Whisky con Ron (AKA Corin Tellado).


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## vlazlo

whisky,
thanks for your observation and directness.  i wasn't making any validity statements about anyone, just noting differences i have seen in general (albeit in a somewhat tongue in cheek manner), i.e., differences between my girlfriend (i think i made reference to other latinas i have dated, well the generalizations hold for them too) in terms of the manner in which we relate to/with family and levels of comfort being honest about what we want and need.  culturally we are a bit different and sometimes that can lead to confusion, misunderstading and misinterpretation.  i think it is vital to be aware of the differences of perception (via cultural lenses) and, as much as possible, learn to appreciate and respect one another for who we are.  so, that being said, thanks for your observation, noted.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Jinti, I loved your story.  

In a lot of cultures, you show respect (or admit wrong-doing) by looking down, NOT looking at someone's face.  It still gets a lot of North American native children into trouble in our European-based school system.  I'd thought that it was a children's issue, however - I had no idea that this also applied to adults.


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## danielfranco

_WARNING: The following comment drips with sarcasm and should only be considered for entertainment purposes, since it very clearly is an exageration of the facts. All similarities with actual living or dead persons is entirely coincidental._

Hi, forum-brethren!
I'm a mexican married to a mexican, but goodness gracious me, might as well we were from different planets!
Check it out: I was born and raised in Mexico City, the biggest doggone city in the world (which feels, smells, and looks like it, by the way)... My wife is from the northmost part of Mexico, where most everything is rural and laid-back.
We each have different vocabulary, slang, accent, everything, even though we speak the same language!
So instead we speak English to each other, to avoid confusions, since we both learned to speak English in the same city in Texas, USA.
As you can see, you don't have to go and marry someone from your Antipodes to get in trouble!
Ah, but loving each other helps, ¿no?
Be well.
Dan F 

P.S. The part about the love thingy is not a joke, it's the truth, alright?


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## Whisky con ron

danielfranco said:
			
		

> So instead we speak English to each other...


 
that's a bit extreme.  Are you going to make sure that your kids don't learn any spanish too?


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## steffiegomez

My mother is Irish, and father Mexican. Mum still doesn't understand why in Mexico after a party, the "goodbyes" start in the party and continue at the door, finishing by the car. So they take about half hour (after begging the guests not to leave and have a "last drink") Other thing: when someone offers more food at a meal, we say "no thank you very much". The host asks again and again, and same answer. Fifth time: the guest says "ok, just a little bit" Mum used to offer more,  and people said no, so sat down, and continued chatting...and Dad had to tell her: offer more than one time please!!
We, 5 children, have a bit of both and the result I think is a good balance! We have learned to love both countries and cultures. But at the end, I believe Mum has become more Mexican than Dad! She corrects all our spelling mistakes for example, including Dad's!


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## danielfranco

Whisky con ron said:
			
		

> that's a bit extreme. Are you going to make sure that your kids don't learn any spanish too?


 
Two things:
My little story was a hyperbole, and I thought that was perfectly clear. For goodness sake, whoever heard two people couldn't communicate using the very same language (apart from Americans and British, that is) (ahem, another hyperbole...)? The point is that things can be worked out if one wishes it so. And we do. So there.

Secondly, don't you worry about what I teach or do not teach my children. Worry about your own and we'll all be fine. I say this in the most respectful and tactful way I could, but I thought we need to be direct when addressing a transgression.

Now, I hope we can all continue enjoying this interesting thread.
Thank you very much for your consideration.
Dan F


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## Span_glish

The main barrier is *humor*. My boyfriend and I can be watching TV and he'll start laughing for no reason (to me at least). Since he doesn't speak much Spanish sometimes I have to explain my jokes and he hardly ever gets them.
That's the main reason why we never go to comedy bars.


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## fenixpollo

danielfranco said:
			
		

> My little story was a hyperbole, and I thought that was perfectly clear. For goodness sake, whoever heard two people couldn't communicate using the very same language


 You'd be surprised, Dan -- I've met several people living in the US who share the same native language but only speak English, and their children grow up monolingual Americans.  

Your hyperbole was not clear at all.  You didn't preface your comments by saying, "I'm speaking in hyperbole", and we didn't hear the sarcasm in your voice when you spoke those words, because you only typed them.  Whisky only reacted to what seemed a serious post by you in an honest way... and in the same way that I reacted, I might add.


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## danielfranco

Okay then, fenixpollo!
I went back and edited my post. Now tell me, are you also going to be judgemental about the way I might or might not raise my own children? Then you are welcome to read my post prior to this one and take it to heart.
Thank you for your contribution.

Now, back to the thread:
As we can see in the many examples graciously shared by forum members, sometimes it is difficult to reach a ready agreement when differences of opinion arise that are not constructively addressed. This situation seems worse when the people involved in it also have different backgrounds: It could be cultural, linguistic, of ethnicity, gender, finances, political, or religious... But most of those differences can be overcome with a little bit of tolerance and respect for each other's differences.
Still, sometimes it can drive one nuts!
Thank you.
Dan F


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## teqyre

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Okay then, fenixpollo!
> I went back and edited my post. Now tell me, are you also going to be judgemental about the way I might or might not raise my own children? Then you are welcome to read my post prior to this one and take it to heart.
> Thank you for your contribution.


For what it's worth, the hyperbole was pretty clear to me (even before you added the "here-comes-sarcasm" warning ), and I think you were right to make that point to Whisky con ron.



			
				danielfranco said:
			
		

> For goodness sake, whoever heard two people couldn't communicate using the very same language (apart from Americans and British, that is)(ahem, another hyperbole...)?


I had a girlfriend from the States who, although could (usually) understand what I said, the big problem was with our different senses of humour... I wouldn't go as far as to say that she had an irony-deficiency problem, but... in fact, yeah, I would.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Returning in a non-confrontational and non-hyperbolic way to the subject of what one teaches one's children, my girlfriend and her husband managed very well.

She's a bilingual Quebecois and he's a Bolivian.  She speaks to the children in French; he speaks to them in Spanish; and when they're all together they speak English.  The children are perfectly trilingual, although their preferred language probably depends on which country they happen to be living in at the time (meaning which language their friends at school are speaking).


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## fenixpollo

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Now tell me, are you also going to be judgemental about the way I might or might not raise my own children?


 Are you challenging me to? I could read that sentence and think you were trying to be confrontational, or I could give you the benefit of the doubt. You reacted quite harshly to whisky's comments without practicing the tolerance you speak of. I was just pointing that out to you, and pointing out how my experience as a teacher of immigrant children in Dallas-Fort Worth differs from yours -- I met so many people who didn't teach their kids the language from their home country, it was amazing to me.

You haven't told us how you raise your children, so I have nothing to judge you about. If you decide to post that info, however, Whisky and I will collaborate on a scathing critique of your childrearing methods and post it here in the form of a personal attack. K?

_(that last paragraph was sarcasm.) :-D_


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## maxiogee

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> *(that last paragraph was sarcasm.) :-D*



Aaah drat and bother! I was looking forward to joining in a bit of cross-cultural hate about raising children born of cross-cultural love.

Whatever way you folks raise your chisselers, _I'm agin' it! _


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## danielfranco

We be cool then... Perhaps I bristled out of long standing, knee-jerk like reaction to anyone that offers any sort of comment about my children without invitation. So maybe it's just me, alright? It was just the double-barrel approach that got my undies in a bunch.

Now, like Chaska said, meanwhile back at the ranch...


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## gato2

What does "chisselers" mean?


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## andresmanuel

well. im colombian, I agree with the most of you, because try to understand to your couple is very difficult sometimes, or majority of times, any way every one is different and when you are in love with someone, you should try to understand your couple by chatting, chatting and chatting. we are human beings and that is the way to solve problems.


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## maxiogee

gato2 said:
			
		

> What does "chisselers" mean?



Children - usually irritating ones belonging to other people!


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## germinal

andresmanuel said:
			
		

> well. im colombian, I agree with the most of you, because try to understand to your couple is very difficult sometimes, or majority of times, any way every one is different and when you are in love with someone, you should try to understand your couple by chatting, chatting and chatting. we are human beings and that is the way to solve problems.


 
Could not constant chatting, chatting, chatting become one of the problems?


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## Cereth

Well, good or bad i have  this fascination for foreigners (maybe it´s a characteristic of my malinche roots).

i had a japanese boyfriend and the only thing that i never couldn´t understand was why the hell he was so slow in replying my messages..but everything else was pretty good, he spoke a little bit of spanish, i speak a little bit of japanese so most of the time we understood pretty well.

just a funny thing he loved pop music in spanish - which i hate-, and i like so much japanese pop -which he hates-...


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## Bettie

steffiegomez said:
			
		

> My mother is Irish, and father Mexican. Mum still doesn't understand why in Mexico after a party, the "goodbyes" start in the party and continue at the door, finishing by the car. So they take about half hour (after begging the guests not to leave and have a "last drink") Other thing: when someone offers more food at a meal, we say "no thank you very much". The host asks again and again, and same answer. Fifth time: the guest says "ok, just a little bit" Mum used to offer more, and people said no, so sat down, and continued chatting...and Dad had to tell her: offer more than one time please!!
> We, 5 children, have a bit of both and the result I think is a good balance! We have learned to love both countries and cultures. But at the end, I believe Mum has become more Mexican than Dad! She corrects all our spelling mistakes for example, including Dad's!


 
Wow, yeah, that is sooooooooo true, I do the same thing, if somebody offers me something when I go somewhere I  say no, thank you, I don't even think about it, it's automatic, when I told about it to my now ex-boyfriend (he is American) he couldn't understand me, hehehe... but why do you do that?


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## GenJen54

*MOD WARNING:  *Speaking of chatting, chatting, chatting, this thread is at serious risk of becoming a cross-cultural chat-filled string of fluff. 

If you wish to continue serious (okay - semi-serious) discussion about the joys and pitfalls of having a relationship with someone of another native language and culture, you are welcome to chime in. 

Further chat, even about the use of hyperbole (obvious or otherwise), will be deleted. 

Thank you for your understanding.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Thanks, GenJen.

Perhaps I should have been quite clear about what I was asking about, instead of leaving things so open-ended.

I was curious about, as GenJen so nicely put it, the joys and pitfalls of an intercultural relationship: potential misunderstandings, what parts of one's culture gets passed onto one's children, relations with the in-laws, subjects or behaviours that are taboo in one culture but not the other, worrying about whether you're more in love with the culture than the person, conflicts with your own family .... a lot of things which could come out of this thread instead of chat.

Here's one last try at a conversational, informative (and, incidentally non-chatty, non-hyperbolic, and definitely non-confrontational) thread.


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## fenixpollo

I'll grab on to the in-laws thing.

My parents are of the Teutonic/Anglo-Saxon/Whateveryawannacallit style of family relationships.  Loving, but distant; caring, but reserved, trying not to 'smother'; when the kids were 18, they got pushed out of the nest.  We talk once every week or two, just to keep in touch.

My in-laws are of the Mexican/Hispanic (from Hispania) style: effusive, affectionate, closely involved; rather than the "empty nest" concept, it's one of a lifelong connection.  

I perceive her parents as warm, and I get along wonderfully with them.  She perceives my parents as cold, and... well, let's just say that the visit from her in-laws is a stressful occasion.


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## ireney

to tell you the truth, I have dealt with cultural differences much more easier than cultural similarities.

You see, it was easier for me (and my ex non-Greek boyfriends) to accept our cultural differences than any of the following

a) Going over the "no, Greeks/Italians are the most noisy/talk more/love to argue more/have the most choking kind of family"

b) Convincing a 2nd generation Greek-American that today's Greek-Greeks' culture _should_ be considered Greek


As for misunderstandings, well, the most common one was them insulting my fellow Greeks because they kept forgetting that showing "Five" with your palm towards the other person and the fingers apart is considered a big insult around here.

The fact that we like hyperbole doesn't help much either. First time my mother cooked for a foreigner and he didn't go ecstatic for at least 10 minutes about her cooking she was ready to commit murder and told me my boyfriend was rude.

Oh, and name days (the day set apart for a special commemoration of the saint you are christened after) are a really big thing around here. Forgetting one's name day is a big no-no. This almost invariably passes on to children of mixed marriages (_and_ has been known to cause misunderstandings )


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## irisheyes0583

Well, there are gobs & gobs of stories that I could mention, but I think that they would all show a common theme (for me, at least). Many times a problem appears to merely stem from language, but we must remember that language is not just language, but involves culture as well.

Case-in-point: I'm American (oh, don't even get me _started_ on this word-choice/language/culture issue!) and in the US, we often introduce our boyfriends as our "friend" (i.e. "Grandma, this is my friend ________"). It's clear that we mean "boyfriend", but it's almost rude to give all the details of our relationship by saying "boyfriend". However, my Costa Rican boyfriend was _extremely_ offended that I called him my "friend" because in his culture, that would imply that we were either not boyfriend-girlfriend or that I was ashamed to be his girlfriend. After much pouting and hurt feelings, he finally told me why he was upset. I explained to him that in US English, calling him my friend was exactly the same as calling him my boyfriend (in the introduction scenario), and I apologized for making him feel bad. Problem solved. But this kind of thing happens all the time... what fun languages & cultures are!


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## Bilma

Ohhh...Do not forget the "who takes out the garbage" issue !!! 

At home in Mexico whoever sees the garbage can full takes it out, the first time I took out the garbage my husband was sooo offended. It wasn't a big deal for me but it was for him. Needless to say no matter how full the can is I do not touch it 


P.S. My hubby is American


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## América

Bilma said:
			
		

> Ohhh...Do not forget the "who takes out the garbage" issue !!!
> 
> At home in Mexico whoever sees the garbage can full takes it out, the first time I took out the garbage my husband was sooo offended. It wasn't a big deal for me but it was for him. Needless to say no matter how full the can is I do not touch it
> 
> 
> P.S. My hubby is American


Happy you! for Bolivian husbans the only think of home labors they do is to drive you to the supermarket. Women have to do everything (besides working of course)


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## Bilma

América said:
			
		

> Happy you! for Bolivian husbans the only think of home labors they do is to drive you to the supermarket. Women have to do everything (besides working of course)


 

Not that different ! That is all he does. He sometimes cooks and sometimes does the dishes but that is all!! Ohh and he mows the yard....women do not mow...you know...


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## borhane

hi all
    what do you think of mixed marriages, between a man and a woman from different countries, cultures or religions
explain well and argue please


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## danielfranco

I always come out with my sloppy, corny, romantic notions that as long as two people really love each other, they shall surmount all obstacles and their love will rise, like the eagles, soaring through the heavens, etc. etc. etc.
But in truth, for the people who actually have a problem with this concept, they will always find some way of segregating people...
For example, I married a woman who has lighter skin color than I and has colored eyes, where mine are just dull brown. She comes from a rural area, I from the largest city in my motherland. She comes from humble origins, I was from the middle-class. She was christian, and I was a lapsed agnostic (?). She's a woman, and I am a man. She has curly hair, and I don't...
So, if I had felt a mixed marriage was not desirable, I wouldn't have married her.
But I did. Because, as long as two people really love each other blah blah blah....


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## Just_Wil

I agree with Daniel, it may sound corny, but as long as two people love each other, the marriage should succeed, and there are a lot of cases that confirm this "theory".
Love isn't a matter of culture or nationality, I think. I don't see negative aspects at least.


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## Bienvenidos

I think mixed couples can learn a lot from each other (maybe one can teach the other a language  ) I see nothing wrong with it.

*Bien*


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## lizzeymac

Fernando said:
			
		

> I agree with maxiogee. The usual woman comment: 'I 'll call you tomorrow' means: 'I will torture you for weeks till you have no self-respect and YOU call me".



Or, if a man actually does "call you tomorrow" after a first date, all of your girlfriends drive you crazy by wondering what is wrong with him that he isn't playing games with you?  Does he live with his mother?  Own 10 cats?  
You can't win for losing.

-


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## vince

. said:


> Answering difficult questions posed in an attempt to clarify ambiguous provocative posts.  This is the type of work that the original poster considers too difficult to do.
> There are only difficulties in cross cultural marriages when viewed through bigotted eyes.
> 
> .,,



I disagree with crosscultural marriages. There are a lot of difficulties with cross cultural marriages. An American dating a Chinese person would require both people to learn about each others' cultures and traditions to not step on each others' toes in misunderstandings. I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result.

But interracial marriages are a different thing. Race and "ethnicity" should not matter and therefore interracial marriages ought to be a natural thing in multiethnic societies. The fact that it isn't very common reflects the continued presence of racism and the resultant segregation of society into racially-defined cultures. "White" Americans and "Black", "Latino", and "Asian" Americans should not be afraid to date each other. I hope to see a rise in interracial marriages which generally reflects a decline in racial segregation.


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## .   1

vince said:


> I disagree with crosscultural marriages. There are a lot of difficulties with cross cultural marriages. An American dating a Chinese person would require both people to learn about each others' cultures and traditions to not step on each others' toes in misunderstandings. I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result.
> 
> But interracial marriages are a different thing. Race and "ethnicity" should not matter and therefore interracial marriages ought to be a natural thing in multiethnic societies. The fact that it isn't very common reflects the continued presence of racism and the resultant segregation of society into racially-defined cultures. "White" Americans and "Black", "Latino", and "Asian" Americans should not be afraid to date each other. I hope to see a rise in interracial marriages which generally reflects a decline in racial segregation.


Thanks for the congratulations.
I will let my Yugoslav wife know that she and I have your approval.
This is a most confusing post and I am not sure which way to understand your mind on this matter.

.,,


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## cuchuflete

vince said:


> I disagree with crosscultural marriages. There are a lot of difficulties with cross cultural marriages. ...But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result.



I don't disagree with crosscultural marriages.  Most marriages involves female and male perspectives, and that's as much a cultural divide as anything you might point to.  
Frankly, for me to disagree with a choice two other people--any two other people--make regarding marriage would be presumptuous.  I have quite a few friends and neighbors who have what you seem to characterize as "crosscultural marriages", and they don't appear to have any special difficulties.


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## maxiogee

vince said:


> I disagree with crosscultural marriages. There are a lot of difficulties with cross cultural marriages. An American dating a Chinese person would require both people to learn about each others' cultures and traditions to not step on each others' toes in misunderstandings. I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result.
> 
> But interracial marriages are a different thing. Race and "ethnicity" should not matter and therefore interracial marriages ought to be a natural thing in multiethnic societies. The fact that it isn't very common reflects the continued presence of racism and the resultant segregation of society into racially-defined cultures. "White" Americans and "Black", "Latino", and "Asian" Americans should not be afraid to date each other. I hope to see a rise in interracial marriages which generally reflects a decline in racial segregation.



Wow, what a load of preconceptions —
a) What is wrong with learning about the cultural background of the one you love? You're going to marry this person, there's loads of things you need to learn about each other, one more category won't matter.
b) What's the difference between 'intercultural' and 'interracial'?
c) Do black, white, Latino and Asian people not have different cultural baggage?
d) Are you not just a being a bigotted nationalist about 'foreigners'? Surely a white American of Irish extraction would have about as much in common with an Irish-born person as they would with a black American?
e) "I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result." What? You're against it, but you favour the results it produces?
f) Has it not occurred to you that someone with a white, ten generation, rural background in say, Wyoming is more likely to be culturally different from a ten generation New Yorker than from someone with ten generations of rural Latino Texan background?


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## vince

maxiogee said:


> Wow, what a load of preconceptions —
> a) What is wrong with learning about the cultural background of the one you love? You're going to marry this person, there's loads of things you need to learn about each other, one more category won't matter.
> *
> I never said learning about the cultural background of the one you love is wrong.
> 
> * b) What's the difference between 'intercultural' and 'interracial'?
> *
> That is a very dangerous statement you are making. If you believe interracial = intercultural, then therefore a black person can never have the same culture as a white person (not same race, therefore not same culture), and therefore a black person can never become Irish (he/she being neither "ethnically" Irish nor culturally Irish). i.e. The only true Irish people are white, all non-white "Irish" are foreigners. And therefore all immigration is bad (except for immigration of "ethnic" Irish) because it will eventually make Irish people a minority in their own country. <-- This is racism.
> 
> * c) Do black, white, Latino and Asian people not have different cultural baggage?
> *EDIT: No, being "genetically" black/white/Latino/Asian alone does not give a person different cultural baggage. But due to racism in society that leads to ethnic segregation be it voluntary or involuntary, the reality is usually yes.
> 
> The reality is usually yes, but this is due to racism in society that leads to ethnic segregation be it voluntary or involuntary. But being of a different race alone does not give a person different cultural baggage.*
> 
> d) Are you not just a being a bigotted nationalist about 'foreigners'? Surely a white American of Irish extraction would have about as much in common with an Irish-born person as they would with a black American?
> *I do not view all cultures to be equal -- if that is bigotry, then I am a bigot. But unlike bigots, I try to read up on other cultures and evaluate them objectively instead of dismissing them solely because they are foreign.
> 
> But I am not a bigot in the sense of being a racist.
> *
> e) "I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result." What? You're against it, but you favour the results it produces?
> *
> Look, I will clarify what I meant:
> Intercultural marriages are riskier than other marriages. I discourage intercultural marriages because they are risky. However, if two individuals have more in common in terms of their personality and are able to overcome cultural differences and form a happy family, then that is great and will benefit themselves and society. Whoever is in a crosscultural marriage that is working, congratulations!
> 
> It's like a kid diving into the deep end on her first day at swimming class. I wouldn't recommend it cuz she could drown, but if she manages to stay afloat, then she has learned more from that experience than all the other kids in her class, and is therefore worth commending.
> *
> f) Has it not occurred to you that someone with a white, ten generation, rural background in say, Wyoming is more likely to be culturally different from a ten generation New Yorker than from someone with ten generations of rural Latino Texan background?



*Why are you bringing up race? Are you associating race with culture again?

Of course that someone from Wyoming with a white, ten generation background has more in common with the rural Latino Texan. Based on my previous posts on multiculturalism and racism, it is shocking to me that you would even suspect I would think otherwise.
*


----------



## cuchuflete

Vince said:
			
		

> Maxiogee:  Do black, white, Latino and Asian people not have different cultural baggage?
> *The reality is usually yes, but this is due to racism in society that leads to ethnic segregation be it voluntary or involuntary. But being of a different race alone does not give a person different cultural baggage.  Make up your mind. Regardless of the causes, you have stated that "the reality is usually yes".  Read your own words.  You have agreed that different races have different cultural baggage.  How they come to have it, and whether this is just and fair and desireable is a different subject.  It was a yes/no question and your answer was "yes".  *
> 
> Maxiogee:  d) Are you not just a being a bigotted nationalist about 'foreigners'? Surely a white American of Irish extraction would have about as much in common with an Irish-born person as they would with a black American?
> *I do not view all cultures to be equal -- if that is bigotry, then I am a bigot.  That IS bigotry.  But unlike bigots, I try to read up on other cultures and evaluate them objectively instead of dismissing them solely because they are foreign. Objectively (sic) judging other cultures through the filter of your own?
> 
> But I am not a bigot in the sense of being a racist.  Logic says otherwise.  You have said that a race has specific cultural baggage.  That means a race has cultural distinctions.  Then you "objectively" read up on and evaluate, and find some better than others.  That sure sounds like racial bigotry.
> *
> e) "I definitely discourage intercultural marriages. But if it works, then congratulations! More cultural interaction will result." What? You're against it, but you favour the results it produces?
> *
> Look, I will clarify what I meant:
> Intercultural marriages are riskier than other marriages.  Prove it!   Conventional wisdom has it that about half of all marriages in the US end in divorce.  Do you have a reason to believe, or data to persuade us, that intercultural marriages are inherently more apt to fail?   I discourage intercultural marriages because they are risky. However, if two individuals have more in common in terms of their personality and are able to overcome cultural differences and form a happy family,   Stop right there!!   You assume, wrongly, that formation of a happy family requires that people "overcome cultural differences".  Has it not crossed your mind that the formation of a happy family might include keeping, nay, highlighting such differences?   then that is great and will benefit themselves and society. Whoever is in a crosscultural marriage that is working, congratulations!
> 
> It's like a kid diving into the deep end on her first day at swimming class. I wouldn't recommend it cuz she could drown, but if she manages to stay afloat, then she has learned more from that experience than all the other kids in her class, and is therefore worth commending.
> 
> And nobody ever drowns in shallow water?  It's a terrible analogy, but swim with it if that's what makes you float.
> *
> Maxiogee:  f) Has it not occurred to you that someone with a white, ten generation, rural background in say, Wyoming is more likely to be culturally different from a ten generation New Yorker than from someone with ten generations of rural Latino Texan background?   *Why are you bringing up race? Are you associating race with culture again?   Are you denying that race and culture may be related?  If you are, then please reread and then rewrite your earlier comments.  You appear to be at odds with yourself from one paragraph to another.  *


----------



## vince

You are wholly misinterpreting me. I do not believe that "*a race has specific cultural baggage*" as you claim that I believe.

I said: 
*The reality is usually yes, but this is due to racism in society that leads to ethnic segregation be it voluntary or involuntary. 

*But right after, I said:*
But being of a different race alone does not give a person different cultural baggage.

*Usually yes: many members of the "Latino" ethnic group choose to be culturally Latin American. But this does not mean that members of this ethnic group are genetically determined to have this culture. There are many examples of "non-white" people who are unfairly called "white-washed" (since some associate mainstream American culture with Whiteness), who are just culturally American rather than adhering to a culture just because it was that of their ancestors. In this way, these people are not culturally different from "white" Americans. But you and maxiogee seem to be insinuating that by virtue of the racial difference, they are culturally different as well. *What exactly makes them different from "white" Americans?*

Am I forbidden from being culturally American because I am not white? Are people of Pakistani "descent" in America forever bound to eating spicy food, wearing hijab, and having arranged marriages? Or will they ever have the choice to do these things or not do these things? Are they bound to this cultural baggage?



> *Prove it! Conventional wisdom has it that about half of all marriages in the US end in divorce. Do you have a reason to believe, or data to persuade us, that intercultural marriages are inherently more apt to fail?
> ...
> **And nobody ever drowns in shallow water?*




All things equal, yes. People drown in shallow water too, but all things being equal, they are more likely to drown in deep water.

A lot of people have divorces, but all other things being equal (personality, love, passion, etc), intercultural marriages are more likely to fail. It's a normal marriage, plus many additional obstacles to overcome.



In hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "_I disagree_ with crosscultural marriages". Because crosscultural marriages can work in many cases. They just are (all other things being equal) harder to make last.


----------



## .   1

G'day Vince,
Your posts remind me of the bloke trying to dig himself out of a hole by using the same methods that got him hole bound in the first place.
You have your own views about cross-cultural marriage but I am not sure if you have made these views clear to those trying to read them.
How can you say that cross-cultural marriages are more prone to failure than intra-cultural marriages.
I have three brothers.
Brother number one has had three failed intra-cultural marriages.
Brother number two had one failed intra-cultural marriage.
I am in the middle of my only marriage and it is inter-cultural.
My youngest brother is in the middle of his only marriage and it is intra-cultural.
All four of us sprang from the same stock which was an inter-cultural marriage.
The stastics on this small sample indicate seven marriages with five failures that were all inter-cultural, one successful inter-cultural marriage and one successful intra-cultural marriage.
I have just returned home from my in-laws home and the cultural differences are staggering but this has never been a bone of contention between the wife and I.  It is simply not an issue.  We find plenty of other stuff to burr up about but her being a wog and me being a skip has never given us a moments pause.
My wife has one brother who married out of his culture and he married a different kind of wog to his kind of wog and two children later they are still going strong.
I have no idea where you are getting your information but I suspect that your sample pool is not indicative of the general populace.

.,,


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> *Why are you bringing up race? Are you associating race with culture again?*


*

Why am "I" bringing up race? That's a really good question, and it's a shame it's not a valid one. I was respondiing to you. You are the one who wrote the following…



vince said:



			But interracial marriages are
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			Race and "ethnicity" should not matter
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			interracial marriages ought to be
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			presence of racism
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			segregation of society into racially-defined cultures.
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			a rise in interracial marriages
		
Click to expand...




vince said:



			decline in racial segregation.
		
Click to expand...


You brought up, and intermingled race, culture and ethnicity! Remember? 


Then you made the absolute stunner of a comment - That is a very dangerous statement you are making.

Now, what prompted this statement from you?
I wrote…


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		


			(b) What's the difference between 'intercultural' and 'interracial'?
		
Click to expand...

 …in response to your use of these descriptors of acceptable and unacceptable marriages.

See that last character in my quote? It's a question mark.
The most charitable thing I can think of to say to you, in response to your assertion that I have made "a very dangerous statement" is that if you cannot tell the difference between a statement and a question then maybe a language-based discussion forum is not the best place for you to get involved in debate.

My word  but you've got a neck like a jockey's rude bits! *


----------



## vince

. said:


> G'day Vince,
> Your posts remind me of the bloke trying to dig himself out of a hole by using the same methods that got him hole bound in the first place.
> You have your own views about cross-cultural marriage but I am not sure if you have made these views clear to those trying to read them.



You are right about that, I don't think I have made what I am saying clear and people are misinterpreting me as some sort of racist.



> How can you say that cross-cultural marriages are more prone to failure than intra-cultural marriages.
> I have three brothers.
> Brother number one has had three failed intra-cultural marriages.
> Brother number two had one failed intra-cultural marriage.
> I am in the middle of my only marriage and it is inter-cultural.
> My youngest brother is in the middle of his only marriage and it is intra-cultural.
> All four of us sprang from the same stock which was an inter-cultural marriage.
> The stastics on this small sample indicate seven marriages with five failures that were all inter-cultural, one successful inter-cultural marriage and one successful intra-cultural marriage.
> .,,


What do you define as intercultural? An Australian of British "background" with an Australian with "Chinese" or "Serb" background does not necessarily constitute an intercultural marriage. It may, depending on the specific circumstances of the two people.

maxiogee, if you look at my quotes in context, you will see that the only time I mention race and culture together is when I am talking about 
multiculturalists and racists in society, and not of my own opinion. My opinion about everything to do with race and culture (including interracial and intercultural marriages) is summed up with my signature below. And could you please answer my question about the difference between a Westernized "Asian" American and a Westernized "white" American?


----------



## cuchuflete

Vince, 
Let me try to simplify this, as we are all getting tangled up in the words.

You have said that you believe intercultural marriages are higher risk than intracultural marriages.   Leaving aside all the other stuff about ethnicity, race, and culture, and accepting whatever you mean by 'intercultural', you haven't provided anything persuasive on this particular point.  You have repeated it, sincerely I'm sure, but you haven't given others any reason to find agreement with you.  

*.,,* and I, for example, have personal experience that is contrary to your assumption of "higher risk".   Maybe we are wrong, but so far we have no reasons to believe that we are wrong.


----------



## .   1

vince said:


> You are right about that, I don't think I have made what I am saying clear and people are misinterpreting me as some sort of racist.
> 
> What do you define as intercultural? An Australian of British "background" with an Australian with "Chinese" or "Serb" background does not necessarily constitute an intercultural marriage. It may, depending on the specific circumstances of the two people.


Inter-cultural means that my wife was born and bred in Yugoslavia and is culturally Yugoslavian.  I was born and bred in Australia and am culturally Australian.  My marriage is inter-cultural.

.,,


----------



## vince

cuchuflete said:


> *.,,* and I, for example, have personal experience that is contrary to your assumption of "higher risk".   Maybe we are wrong, but so far we have no reasons to believe that we are wrong.



Recall that I said, "all things being equal".

If two intercultural people love each other a lot, and have good matching personalities, and there is emotional passion between two people, and both have accepting family and friends, then chances are their marriage will have less risk than that of the average intracultural marriage. This probably explains the personal experiences of you and .,,.

However, take an average intracultural marriage between two average people, and turn it into an intercultural marriage, then it will become riskier.

What types of obstacles are there?
- language barriers, the foreigner may not understand the subleties of your language, and/or their family might not understand you. You may have to learn the other language to become part of the family
- different tastes, the foreigner listens to music / eats food from his/her home country, that you will have to adjust to, even if you don't like it
- different type of family relations: her/his parents/grandparents might demand certain respect and courtesies that you aren't accustomed to
- different set of manners and etiquette: her/his friends might get offended that you stay so far away when you talk to them, and don't shake/ give them a kiss every time you meet them. They may not like the way you eat, because it is how "uneducated people" eat in their home country. It may be unacceptable for a woman to swear or wear pants, even to people of your age group.
- different customs/traditions: there may be different acceptable levels of modesty between the two cultures in terms of dress. They may have some annual festival where they eat some kind of food that disgusts you. They may have some kinds of traditions/ rites of passage that you consider sexist.

I am not saying that people can't adjust and accomodate and learn about these cultural differences and therefore surmount them. I am just saying that these present additional challenges that intracultural marriages do not face.


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> maxiogee, if you look at my quotes in context, you will see that


All I see is that you are the one tying yourself up in knots discussing race, culture and intermingling of either or both!



> And could you please answer my question about the difference between a Westernized "Asian" American and a Westernized "white" American?



What on earth is a westernized "white" American?  
I poilitely decline to answer. 
Do you really think that one can differentiate between theoretical people?


----------



## vince

maxiogee said:


> All I see is that you are the one tying yourself up in knots discussing race, culture and intermingling of either or both!





If you say so. 



> What on earth is a westernized "white" American?
> I poilitely decline to answer.
> Do you really think that one can differentiate between theoretical people?



Fine. "Americanized" then.

Are you saying that Americanized "Asian" people do not exist outside the theoretical realm?

That they are culturally different from Americanized "white" people by virtue of their race? How so?


----------



## .   1

vince said:


> Recall that I said, "all things being equal".
> 
> We are all equal.
> 
> If two intercultural people love each other a lot, and have good matching personalities, and there is emotional passion between two people, and both have accepting family and friends, then chances are their marriage will have less risk than that of the average intracultural marriage. This probably explains the personal experiences of you and .,,.
> 
> This is a description of a successful marriage.
> 
> However, take an average intracultural marriage between two average people, and turn it into an intercultural marriage, then it will become riskier.
> 
> Why am I not average?
> 
> What types of obstacles are there?
> - language barriers, the foreigner may not understand the subleties of your language, and/or their family might not understand you. You may have to learn the other language to become part of the family
> - different tastes, the foreigner listens to music / eats food from his/her home country, that you will have to adjust to, even if you don't like it
> - different type of family relations: her/his parents/grandparents might demand certain respect and courtesies that you aren't accustomed to
> - different set of manners and etiquette: her/his friends might get offended that you stay so far away when you talk to them, and don't shake/ give them a kiss every time you meet them. They may not like the way you eat, because it is how "uneducated people" eat in their home country. It may be unacceptable for a woman to swear or wear pants, even to people of your age group.
> - different customs/traditions: there may be different acceptable levels of modesty between the two cultures in terms of dress. They may have some annual festival where they eat some kind of food that disgusts you. They may have some kinds of traditions/ rites of passage that you consider sexist.
> 
> My missus and her wog mates eat stuff that I think should gag a stoat but I am not forced to eat what she eats.
> 
> I eat with my fingers and have never had a problem.
> 
> I am not saying that people can't adjust and accomodate and learn about these cultural differences and therefore surmount them. I am just saying that these present additional challenges that intracultural marriages do not face.
> 
> No culture is homogenous.  We are all different.  I have met many people from your culture that I quite like and I have met some from your culture that I think are ignorant racists.


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> That they are culturally different from Americanized "white" people by virtue of their race? How so?



Once again, I politely decline to answer.


----------



## scotu

. said:


> We find plenty of other stuff to burr up about but her being a wog and me being a skip has never given us a moments pause.
> My wife has one brother who married out of his culture and he married a different kind of wog to his kind of wog and two children later they are still going strong.
> .,,


 
This is the first time I've heard the word wog applied to a Yugoslavian. Is this common? 

skip for Austrailian is also new. Is "skip" disrespectful in the same sense as wog?


----------



## vince

Quote:
 Recall that I said, "all things being equal".

We are all equal.

*Huh? I was referring to qualities and characteristics of the relationship between two people. A couple that never talks except to fight is not equal to a sucessful one as described below:*

 
If two intercultural people love each other a lot, and have good matching personalities, and there is emotional passion between two people, and both have accepting family and friends, then chances are their marriage will have less risk than that of the average intracultural marriage. This probably explains the personal experiences of you and .,,.

This is a description of a successful marriage.

However, take an average intracultural marriage between two average people, and turn it into an intercultural marriage, then it will become riskier.

Why am I not average?

*Because your marriage is probably more successful than the average one.*
 
What types of obstacles are there?
- language barriers, the foreigner may not understand the subleties of your language, and/or their family might not understand you. You may have to learn the other language to become part of the family
- different tastes, the foreigner listens to music / eats food from his/her home country, that you will have to adjust to, even if you don't like it
- different type of family relations: her/his parents/grandparents might demand certain respect and courtesies that you aren't accustomed to
- different set of manners and etiquette: her/his friends might get offended that you stay so far away when you talk to them, and don't shake/ give them a kiss every time you meet them. They may not like the way you eat, because it is how "uneducated people" eat in their home country. It may be unacceptable for a woman to swear or wear pants, even to people of your age group.
- different customs/traditions: there may be different acceptable levels of modesty between the two cultures in terms of dress. They may have some annual festival where they eat some kind of food that disgusts you. They may have some kinds of traditions/ rites of passage that you consider sexist.

My missus and her wog mates eat stuff that I think should gag a stoat but I am not forced to eat what she eats.

*That's called accomodation.*
 
I eat with my fingers and have never had a problem.

*That's also accomodation / learning / adjustment.*
 
I am not saying that people can't adjust and accomodate and learn about these cultural differences and therefore surmount them. I am just saying that these present additional challenges that intracultural marriages do not face.

No culture is homogenous. We are all different. I have met many people from your culture that I quite like and I have met some from your culture that I think are ignorant racists.

*Culture is not the determining factor behind what makes a marriage successful. The most important thing is personality. Which is why I agree with you when you say "I have met many people from your culture that I quite like (favorable personality) and I have met some from your culture that I think are ignorant racists (unfavorable personalities). But personality and other things being equal, matching culture is more likely to  be successful than differing cultures.

*


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Once again, I politely decline to answer.



*I don't understand why you wouldn't answer, since every non-racist would say that there is NO difference in terms of culture. But I respect your decision to not answer.*


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> I don't understand why you wouldn't answer,


Bluntly, because you are asking me a question I don't see the point of. 
If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has a different philosophical approach to life than the "white", I don't see how it relates to the thread.
If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has seen more discrimination than the "white", I still don't see how it relates to the thread.
If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has a very different medical history than the "white", I still don't see how it relates to the thread.
But, the main reason I don't respond is that I don't see a difference, based on the given information, between the two people, but you appear to feel that I might, or to have expected me to say that I did. Why you felt the need to ask the question eludes me.


----------



## vince

maxiogee said:


> Bluntly, because you are asking me a question I don't see the point of.
> If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has a different philosophical approach to life than the "white", I don't see how it relates to the thread.
> If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has seen more discrimination than the "white", I still don't see how it relates to the thread.
> If I were to say that the Asian quite possibly has a very different medical history than the "white", I still don't see how it relates to the thread.
> But, the main reason I don't respond is that I don't see a difference, based on the given information, between the two people, but you appear to feel that I might, or to have expected me to say that I did. Why you felt the need to ask the question eludes me.



The point was to determine whether you were approaching the topic of intercultural vs. interracial marriages from a racist point of view. That is, whether you were assuming that I, as a non-white 
Canadian, necessarily have different cultural baggage than a "white" Canadian due to my skin color.

I suppose you were doing the same thing with your question: _"Has it not occurred to you that someone with a white, ten generation, rural background in say, Wyoming is more likely to be culturally different from a ten generation New Yorker than from someone with ten generations of rural Latino Texan background?"_


----------



## AGATHA2

Chaska Ñawi said:


> From the Canadian - Bolivian perspective, a big issue was the completely different perception of time.
> 
> One phrase that gave me no end of trouble was "I'll call you tomorrow". I'd hear this, take it literally, and hang around the phone in a love-induced fog waiting for a call. It took a long time to learn that the Bolivian translation of this was "If I'm still in the same mood I'll call you tomorrow ... or maybe the day after .... or next week ...." As a result I thought my boyfriend at the time was completely unreliable, and he thought that I was completely anal.
> 
> quote]
> 
> That´s not only a Canadian-Bolivian perspective  ! Thanks for the interesting interpretation of that kind of behaviour


----------



## cuchuflete

I tried to simplify the question about risk, asked for evidence, facts....  I got a list of items which might, for some people,_ ceteris paribus_, require some attention and effort.  Attention and effort requirements do not, _ceteris paribus_, equate to risk.

Excessive homogeneity presents, all things being equal (and all puns intended), greater risk of boredom, which in turn puts a marriage or love affair at risk.   That's why people with any sense do not marry themselves.


----------



## scotu

cuchuflete said:


> IThat's why people with any sense do not marry themselves.


Is this legal? Would it be classified as a "same sex marriage"


----------



## .   1

scotu said:


> This is the first time I've heard the word wog applied to a Yugoslavian. Is this common?
> 
> skip for Austrailian is also new. Is "skip" disrespectful in the same sense as wog?


Dunno about your neck o' the woods but any mug around here who tried to be disrespectful by calling someone a wog would be laughed out of the room.  Wog is simply a tag used by skips and wogs to denote a person born in Europe or Asia.  Skip is similarly used by wogs and skips to denote a person born in Australia.
Skip is a shortening of Skippy the Bush Kangaroo.
Wogs also use kangaroo in place of skip.

Wog lost the disrespectful overtone in a similar way that nigger is losing the negative overtone.  Wogs started using the term to describe themselves and now it would be just plain funny to hear a bigot try to sneer at a wog.

.,,


----------



## gaer

vince said:


> I disagree with crosscultural marriages.


Let me ask a basic question: What does "disagree mean" here?

Are you a marriage counselor? Is this a professional opinion? I'd like to know what you mean?

As many people have pointed out, the whole "men are from Mars and women are from Venus" thing is a huge obstacle to overcome. Obviously anything that puts additional pressure on a marriage potentially decreases its chances of succeeding, and we all know how many marriages end in divorce.

However, I would never "disagree" with any two people getting married on the basis of one factor, even a very large, complicated factor—or set of factors.

I'd also like to know why someone changed the original thread title from "Cross-cultural love".


> An American dating a Chinese person would require both people to learn about each others' cultures and traditions to not step on each others' toes in misunderstandings. I definitely discourage intercultural marriages.


Of course such a situation has additional challenges. It also has many potential additional rewards. But who are you to discourage who gets married to whom? Is there something I'm misssing? This sounds as if you are in a position to counsel people about the advisability of getting married. If you are not, I don't understand your choice of words.


> But interracial marriages are a different thing.


Yes, they are. They introduce yet another complication, and in societies intolerant of such marriages, people from different races often face incredible bigotry.


> Race and "ethnicity" should not matter and therefore interracial marriages ought to be a natural thing in multiethnic societies.


I'm not quite sure what a "multiethnic society" is. If you have in mind a model country in which there is no race or cultural prejudice, I don't think such a place exists—unfortunately.

However, I'm totally confused about your use of "ethnicity".

MW's definition of "enthnic" does not separate "race" from other "differences":

*ethnic: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background*

I would simply say that the more "ethnic differences" exist between two people who hope to spend a life together, the greater the obstacles might be. On the other hand, with greater challenges come greater victories.

Quite obviously two people who look very different (race) with different beliefs (religions, assumptions coming from culture) speaking different languages MAY have additional difficulties—many coming from friends, family and country—but there are numerous examples of marriages between two such people that show great happiness.

Gaer


----------



## gaer

. said:


> Wog lost the disrespectful overtone in a similar way that nigger is losing the negative overtone.
> .,,


I won't disagree with your about wog/skip. I know nothing about these terms and accept your word for what they mean.

Nigger is not losing "the negative overtone" in the US. Saying it to the wrong person in the wrong situation can get you killed. Literally.

Was your statement in regard to the meaning in Australia? 

Gaer


----------



## .   1

gaer said:


> I won't disagree with your about wog/skip. I know nothing about these terms and accept your word for what they mean.
> 
> Nigger is not losing "the negative overtone" in the US. Saying it to the wrong person in the wrong situation can get you killed. Literally.
> 
> Was your statement in regard to the meaning in Australia?
> 
> Gaer


I was commenting only on Australia.
I started my comment with;
*Dunno about your neck o' the woods but any mug around here who tried to be disrespectful by calling someone a wog would be laughed out of the room.*
'around here' was a reference to where I live. Australia.
I followed up with an obviously Australian word 'skip' as in kangaroo. My whole reference was to Australia and the way words are used in Australia.
I feel very sad for the U.S.A. or any other country where a person could be killed for using a word.
The world is not large enough for me if that is the case.
Nigger is simply not used in Australia or at least I have never heard it used.  

.,,


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> The point was to determine whether you were approaching the topic of intercultural vs. interracial marriages from a racist point of view. That is, whether you were assuming that I, as a non-white
> Canadian, necessarily have different cultural baggage than a "white" Canadian due to my skin color.



As a non-white anything you will have a different cultural background to a white living in the same place. Just as a third- or fourth-generation Irishman living in Paris is going to have different cultural baggage than a third- or fourth-generation Briton living in the apartment next door to him. We all, even people of the same background, embrace different parts of our cultural heritage. It is often commented that Irish-Americans make more of a point of involving themselves in "Irish" cultural events than people in Ireland do. My many and various cousins (32 of us with the one grandmother and grandfather) are pulling different cultural baggage after us.

Does the fact that you are non-white mean that the baggage is noticeably different? I can't tell, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.

Is that racist - no, I would probably hope that whatever culture your non-whiteness springs from, and which you embrace, is open to accepting interested 'outsider' Canadians who might wish to learn about it. And, that there are interested Canadians who can help to adopt your cultural background into an overall Canadian culture.
"New" countries have to get their cultural background from somewhere, and all residents should be able to make a case for meaningful parts of their culture to be adopted. Just as, in the older nations, immigrants should be able to become citizens and still retain some of their culture and offer it to their hosts (as long as both sides don't try to remain apartheidist).

This is a process which, generally, cannot be undertaken in the early days of an immigrant people's arrival. It needs to be later generations, native born in the new country, which inititates the blending process.
Irish history is littered with incoming peoples - Celts, Vikings, Normans, and English, who - coming to conquer, loot or trade, initially - settled into small separate settlements and slowly merged. There is a well-known phrase in Irish history about the Anglo-Normans and others - they became "more Irish than the Irish themselves". Irish culture? I'm not sure anyone could tell too precisely what heritage any of it is truly from - and sure, what matter?

Does thinking that you have a different cultural background than your neighbours indicate that I approach the topic from a racist point of view?


----------



## Lusitania

I believe that interracial relationships is not the same as intercultural. There can be interracial relationships and multicultural communities that aren't intercultural at all. Intercultural means an ability to put in others place and try to see things according to their own view and culture not following ours.

It's not easy and often it leads to misunderstandings.

I'm for diversity and feel that it enriches any community. However, some cultures might not fit others.

Also sometimes we might think that our culture is similar to another culture and there are some significant differences, this often happens due to the lack of intercultural perspective while perceiving others.


----------



## vince

maxiogee said:


> Does thinking that you have a different cultural background than your neighbours indicate that I approach the topic from a racist point of view?



Yes it does, if you presume an aspect of me (my culture) based on my skin color. That is part of what racism is.

An Americanized "Asian" and an Americanized "White" person have the same culture. However, if they encounter particularly racist people they may (or may not!) be slightly influenced by their experiences with racism. But the essential culture stays the same: musical tastes, cuisine, fashion, customs, traditions, etiquette, family relations, and language. They may (or may not!) develop a different worldview due to racist people but this alone does not make it a different "culture".

Basically, a marriage between an Americanized "Asian" and an Americanized "white" person is far less intercultural than that between a rural "Asian" and an urban "Asian". Remember the question you asked me about the rural Latino and rural "White" vs. the urban "White"?

Culturally, people like me are Canadian, not Chinese-Canadian.


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> Yes it does, if you presume an aspect of me (my culture) based on my skin color. That is part of what racism is.


You make three mistakes
1. You mistake my awareness that you have a different cultural background  with me presuming that you have a different culture. 
2. You mistake my awareness that you have a different cultural backgroun with my making any presumtion as to what that means to you.
3. You mistake my awareness that you have a different cultural background to my acting on that awareness.

None of those errors can be grounded in anything I have done, but appear to be a concerns of yours vis-a-vis, and I cannot help you with that.




> An Americanized "Asian" and an Americanized "White" person have the same culture. However, if they encounter particularly racist people they may (or may not!) be slightly influenced by their experiences with racism. But the essential culture stays the same: musical tastes, cuisine, fashion, customs, traditions, etiquette, family relations, and language. They may (or may not!) develop a different worldview due to racist people but this alone does not make it a different "culture".


I find that hard to believe. The "racial" background of people does come through in their cultural identity, as does their religious background (if it is a family-traditional thing) and the language spoken in their home. I don't believe we have yet reached a state where all "Americanised" Asians have shuffled off their cultural heritage to the extent that you imply, and I would hold that America and Canada don't yet have an all-encompassing "American Culture" or "Canadian Culture" — oh yes, they're getting their, but they haven't made it yet.



> Culturally, people like me are Canadian, not Chinese-Canadian.


As I say, you may be, and many like you, but I doubt that all your fellow "Americanised" are. How can you be when there are people whose roots go back further than yours in their new nations who still call themselves "Irish-American", "Italian-American" etc. They are not adopting a central culture.

On another thread I mentioned the grouping of what used to be called "The Ascendancy" in Ireland - the descendants of English settlers who arrived hundreds of years ago. They declined to assimilate into the country, and many left when it became independent from England, going back to their cultural roots.

An awareness of all this is not racism — acting on it, or thinking that it makes a difference to the person in question, would be.


----------



## Estiben

vince said:


> A lot of people have divorces, but all other things being equal (personality, love, passion, etc), intercultural marriages are more likely to fail. It's a normal marriage, plus many additional obstacles to overcome.
> 
> In hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "_I disagree_ with crosscultural marriages". Because crosscultural marriages can work in many cases. They just are (all other things being equal) harder to make last.



OK, here I go, I just saw this and I cannot remain silent, because it speaks to me. 
Vince, respectfully, I strongly disagree. I see no evidence that this is true, nor has anyone been able to show me any. You might like this reference:
http://lists101.his.com/pipermail/smartmarriages/2002-February/001008.html

I found it whlie searching for said evidence, after a friend of mine made a comment (so I heard from a third party) about my new relationship. He reportedly said, "I hope they are not getting serious, because interracial marriages seldom work out." 

I was shocked and offended, for two reasons. 
1) It was clear to me that he had no basis for his statement, and was only speaking from his "old school" background, that is to say, his racist upbringing.
2)Although the woman was from Panamá and obviously latina, and I am pretty nordic, it had not crossed my mind that we were different racially. Culturally, sure. To me, race is a rather ineffective way of trying to describe physical differences between people, and is of limited usefulness. 

Anyway, I married that woman two years ago, and we are famously happy. One of the best aspects of our relationship is our communication. When we met, she knew little English and I knew less Spanish. But love knows no barriers.   

I do not mean to provoke contention, but to promote thoughfulness. "All other things" are never equal, often things that are more difficult are more valuable, and maybe most people entering an intercultural relationship are aware that there may be challenges, and try a little harder to make it work.

God bless.


----------



## vince

there are two arguments some of you are confusing:

a.) An exclusive generalization, for example, no elephants are white
b.) An open generalization, for example, most elephants are not white

The first type of statement can be rendered invalid by a single anecdote, e.g. the presence of a single white elephant. But the second type requires further research, for example, a representational survey of elephants

The type of statement "Intercultural marriages are, all things considered equal, less likely to be successful than monocultural ones" is of the second type. The fact that you may be in an intercultural marriage does not mean that the issuer of the statement is condemning or saying that your marriage will fail. Because it is not a blanket generalization. Therefore I don't understand why people are taking this personally.

Another thing is, interracial does not equal intercultural. You can be of two separate races/ethnicities and have the same culture, or be of the same race/ethnicity but have different culture.

Hope this settles it all.

Goodnight


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## Estiben

vince said:


> there are two arguments some of you are confusing:
> 
> a.) An exclusive generalization, for example, no elephants are white
> b.) An open generalization, for example, most elephants are not white
> 
> The first type of statement can be rendered invalid by a single anecdote, e.g. the presence of a single white elephant. But the second type requires further research, for example, a representational survey of elephants
> 
> The type of statement "Intercultural marriages are, all things considered equal, less likely to be successful than monocultural ones" is of the second type. The fact that you may be in an intercultural marriage does not mean that the issuer of the statement is condemning or saying that your marriage will fail. Because it is not a blanket generalization. Therefore I don't understand why people are taking this personally.
> 
> Another thing is, interracial does not equal intercultural. You can be of two separate races/ethnicities and have the same culture, or be of the same race/ethnicity but have different culture.
> 
> Hope this settles it all.
> 
> Goodnight



But Vince,
As to your second point, of course interracial does not equal intercultural. My point was that race is nearly meaningless to me. I mean, I know I am a white guy, but so what? White is not a culture. I am an American, an anglophone, raised on the farm, etc. These things have meaning to me, and add interest (and challenge) to our marital relationship.

As to you first point, I am eagerly awaiting the results of your research. Or do you know of a representational survey of intercultural relationships. If so, please provide references. It irritates me when people make statements that sound reasonable, but have absolutely no factual support. I understand your reasoning, and it may be a valid hypothesis, but at this point is no more than an opinion. Tell me the percentage of success or failure in intercultural relationships, compared to the "average" relationship, and show me the documentation. Then we can talk.


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:


> there are two arguments some of you are confusing:
> 
> a.) An exclusive generalization, for example, no elephants are white
> b.) An open generalization, for example, most elephants are not white
> 
> The first type of statement can be rendered invalid by a single anecdote, e.g. the presence of a single white elephant. But the second type requires further research, for example, a representational survey of elephants



Indeed and well said Vince.
Now, perhaps you would be good enough to provide details of the "representational survey" which allows you to state categorically that "intercultural marriages are more likely to fail".
I'd love to see it.


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## Estiben

To further clarify, now that I have had a nap :

By genetic heritage, I am French, English, Irish, and American Indian. Culturally, I identify as white, rural Minnesotan, and also by marriage as Panamanian. So am I white by race or culture? My niece looks like an African-American but thinks of herself as Panamanian-American. Her sister has lighter skin but identifies as "black". Culturally, we find a home.  The concept of race is so muddled that, to me, it is useless. 
Now I am trying to get my wife to add her take on it. She is a little hesitant about writing in English. 

God bless.


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## maxiogee

Estiben said:


> So am I white by race or culture?


Is "white" one of those? I thought it was a skin-tone. 
Seriously, I don't see white as a 'race' as there is a gradation of colour as one moves from north-western Europe (here in Ireland) along a line through Istanbul and on into India.
As to white being a culture - that's a very minimalist approach to the subtle distinctions of cultures.


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## Paulfromitaly

I'm Italian and my girlfriend is Scottish.
The first big misunderstanding I came across with was when I first met her flatmates (two girls):
What young people of different sex usually do in Italy is not only shaking each other hands, but also kissing each other on the cheeks.
When she saw me do that to her flatmates she gave me evils and accused me to be a flirt..


----------



## .   1

'she gave me evils'
That is a most eloquent description.  I love it.
My wife is constantly revealing the revealing power of translated communication.  Some phrases sound so much more colourful when spoken by a non native speaker.  It is these two points that make my cross cultural marriage extremely interesting.  I am constantly being forced to examine myself when the cheeze and kisses is confronted by something I do or say.
My origin is the wide open plains of inland Australia which is a contrast to the urban crowding of Yugoslavia.
My culture has large personal spaces and non interrogative questioning of non intimates while Her Indoors is close and personally invasive of everybody.
I am of the opinion that it is possible that cross cultural marriages are more likely to be successful than intra cultural marriages.
I am fascinated on so many levels with the vastly different cultural input that I receive.
The very last thing that I would want to do is to marry someone too similar to me.  I believe that I can deal with some of life's difficulties in different ways to the strategies adopted by my wife and this doubles our opportunities to get it right.

.,,


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## LaurentK

My wife is Irish, I am French.  We are married for 19 years. We met in Paris, lived there, then left for Ireland (Cork then Roscommon), and went back to Paris in 2001. We have three intercultural  children. I have read the threads, and followed Maxiogee and Vince... barney (can I say that?).

An intercultural union does not go without saying, and it can be quite difficult at times. I don't want to give examples, I just want to say that Vince has a point. I think that it is probably safer, in a certain way, to marry the girl next door.

My wedding kept me awake, as much listening as I could, questioning my own culture and its possible supremacy, especially for the Frenchman that I am, if you see what I mean...

I am not sure at all that there are more divorces among inetercultural unions. And if there were, it would only prove that intercultural union do not go without saying... case made .

Intercultural question is not time-soluble. Even after 19 years, even after having received the Irish citizenship (for which I am immensely honoured and grateful), I remain a Frenchman and a... French man. Not true for our three bicultural monsters who couldn't even conceive the present discussion... Happy new year, and may death penalty be abolished from all cultures.


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## Macunaíma

maxiogee said:


> b) What's the difference between 'intercultural' and 'interracial'?
> c) Do black, white, Latino and Asian people not have different cultural baggage?


 
People of different races may share exactly the same cultural values. Thank God this is true of Brazil, at least. We do not see any conection between "race" and "culture" in this part of America.


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## Macunaíma

maxiogee said:


> As a non-white anything you will have a different cultural background to a white living in the same place. Just as a third- or fourth-generation Irishman living in Paris is going to have different cultural baggage than a third- or fourth-generation Briton living in the apartment next door to him. We all, even people of the same background, embrace different parts of our cultural heritage.


 
I think I live in a totally _sui generis_ country because I am totally agape at this comment.


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## cuchuflete

Dispensing with such empty terms as race, and elusive ones such as culture, I'll comment on people of substantially different backgrounds.  Take that to mean whatever you will, so long as the differences are of substance, and are great.   I commented, weeks ago, in this thread that differences might require a couple to make a greater effort.  That does not imply a greater risk of failure.  It may well improve the odds of a marriage succeeding.  

I've lived in places in my own country and in other countries where pairing of people from very different backgrounds is common.  I have no reason to believe that marriages fail in those places with any greater frequency than in geographies with homogeneous populations.  

The few bits of anecdotal evidence we have seen in this thread do support the proposition that a "mixed" marriage may require more effort, and do not support the idea that such marriages are at greater risk of failure.  


Aside: Having spent a little time in Brasil, I fully appreciate Macunaíma's astonishment where his country is concerned.  Sadly, color seems to matter much more in most of Europe and North America.


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## Estiben

cuchuflete said:


> Dispensing with such empty terms as race, and elusive ones such as culture, I'll comment on people of substantially different backgrounds.  Take that to mean whatever you will, so long as the differences are of substance, and are great.   I commented, weeks ago, in this thread that differences might require a couple to make a greater effort.  That does not imply a greater risk of failure.  It may well improve the odds of a marriage succeeding.
> 
> I've lived in places in my own country and in other countries where pairing of people from very different backgrounds is common.  I have no reason to believe that marriages fail in those places with any greater frequency than in geographies with homogeneous populations.
> 
> The few bits of anecdotal evidence we have seen in this thread do support the proposition that a "mixed" marriage may require more effort, and do not support the idea that such marriages are at greater risk of failure.
> 
> 
> Aside: Having spent a little time in Brasil, I fully appreciate Macunaíma's astonishment where his country is concerned.  Sadly, color seems to matter much more in most of Europe and North America.



Well said!  Thank you. 
Being from a place where, indeed, color does seem to matter to many, I have to say that much of the pressure on intercultural unions comes from external forces rather than personal differences. I say this from personal experience, not having other data to back it up. I can say that our respective families are very supportive and have shown no prejudice. That is a very good thing! I have heard horror stories of families who weren't so accepting.  Have any of you had bad experiences with the family of your significant other, based on ethnic or whatever differences?


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Let's see... As (_..._I like to treat myself thinking I'm still...) a young woman p) who has been _sort of_ (  ) involved with guys from entirely different backgrounds than my own, this is quite a fascinating thread.



Estiben said:


> "All other things" are never equal, often things that are more difficult are more valuable, and maybe most people entering an intercultural relationship are aware that there may be challenges, and try a little harder to make it work.


In my homeland, we have the saying: "nada fácil vale la pena" (nothing easy is really worthy), something like the English-speaking's "Nothing good comes for free", or "what easy comes, easy goes". So you definitely have a point. 




Paulfromitaly said:


> I'm Italian and my girlfriend is Scottish.
> The first big misunderstanding I came across with was when I first met her flatmates (two girls):
> What young people of different sex usually do in Italy is not only shaking each other hands, but also kissing each other on the cheeks.
> When she saw me do that to her flatmates she gave me evils and accused me to be a flirt..


Well, that caused me quite a pain in the... cheek... (take it as you may  ) when hangin' out with a Frenchman for the first time. Can't remember how many misunderstandings (from both sides) we had to cope with in that field... it made each other (and each other's friends) uncomfortable and doubtful about the proper manners time and again, causing us to go on mumble-cursing (yes indeed, I just made up that word) over each other  



. said:


> I am of the opinion that it is possible that cross cultural marriages are more likely to be successful than intra cultural marriages


I agree, *if and only if* we are talking about two understanding, grown-up, emotionally stable and mature people who love each other. There are many challenges involved, which could be a real threat to a relationship. But then again, the same is true in an intra-cultural marriage when both are not mature enough or don't love each other as to stand each other's differences --whatever they might be.



> I am fascinated on so many levels with the vastly different cultural input that I receive


Oh yes, that's one of the best parts of it!


> I am not sure at all that there are more divorces among inetercultural unions. And if there were, it would only prove that intercultural union do not go without saying... case made


True, true!  Marriage is a huge thing, period. If you enter it with the necessary 'preparation', motivation, matureness, amount of love and attitude, you have a chance. If you don't, success could perhaps never get to be more than a daydream. Culture is just a component of such union, not the decisive thing! Or, so I think...


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

cuchuflete said:


> Dispensing with such empty terms as race, and elusive ones such as culture, I'll comment on people of substantially different backgrounds. Take that to mean whatever you will, so long as the differences are of substance, and are great. I commented, weeks ago, in this thread that differences might require a couple to make a greater effort. That does not imply a greater risk of failure. It may well improve the odds of a marriage succeeding.
> The few bits of anecdotal evidence we have seen in this thread do support the proposition that a "mixed" marriage may require more effort, and do not support the idea that such marriages are at greater risk of failure.


What I have seen so far is that, when there are differences between people who try to share a life, bigger (harder?) effort is necessary, as Estiben has said so clearly, a few posts ago. And that in my view, makes bonds stronger, since those involved in the relationship "put their hearts and heartblood" in making it work.



Estiben said:


> (...)I have heard horror stories of families who weren't so accepting. Have any of you had bad experiences with the family of your significant other, based on ethnic or whatever differences?


Yes. Being a Latin American -sometimes, just for being foreign- woman, there were lots of (some narrow-minded people's) prejudices I had to fight with in every field and, unfortunately, it also represented an obstacle I had to overcome, in order to keep on with some certain relationships.

That was no big deal when the guy was 'on my side', but it really was a source of stress and trouble when they guy listened to the prejudicious family. It personally happened to me only once, but it was strong enough to mess up the relationship. Enough about that. Next!



Chaska Ñawi said:


> There seem to be many, many forer@s here who are (or were) married, or in a serious relationship, with someone from a different culture.
> Looking at all of us, we should have some really interesting stories about how we got around the potential misunderstandings and different habits.


Wow, there are so many... Punctuality being the main one with the French. In my homeland, we are *always late*, and I truly do mean both words, *always *and *late*... _*really*_ late! 

That is not acceptable everywhere, of course. So, whenever there was a _rendez-vous_ (if I still remember how to spell it), I was the irresponsible, inconsiderate, disrespectful, thoughtless ass who could never make it on time, and my friends were the inflexible, uncomprehensive, not-understanding-at-all, time freaks who cared about nothing but the watch, instead of the fact of getting together and spending a nice time together... Until we talked it over, of course


----------



## Venezuelan_sweetie

Whisky con ron said:


> From the Scottish-Venezuelan perspective the worst thing is not complaining enough (Scottish) and apologising for things you haven't done...
> I guess my beau could say that the latino temperament has been... interesting... to deal with . But there's been a lot of missunderstanding. Like the other day I was ironing and he wanted something and I said in Spanish "pero no ves que estoy ocupada anda y búscalo tú!!" (which probably sounded like very fast and loud talking to him, actually) whilst I pointed at the iron that I was holding and waving in the air with the other hand... He said that he had never been threatened with an iron before! and I thought I was just talking normally!
> Oh the fun we have....


LOL! Quite funny, paisana! That sounds sooooo familiar...

According to my dear Scots, Britons and Frenchies, I am sooo effusive and emotive, sort of nosy, always praising, always scolding, always shouting, always inquiring, always flirting (!), always telling things right on the face... while in my homeland, I am considered to be kind of closed, too polite, and even shy!  

If I were to tell aaaaall the funny situations of the sort that I've been through, I'd never end...



jinti said:


> I used to be married to a Colombian, and I used to get sooooo angry with him because of what we finally realized was a cultural difference.
> (...) these cultural things are so ingrained that sometimes you don't even realize what's driving your emotional reactions.


Oh yes! My American relatives and I have sometimes gone through this. Especially about "political correctness", which is absolutelly unexistant in my homeland. 

I remember the first time I called a "colored" friend "negra", in Spanish, quite a few years from now. I nearly lost a friend... and who knows what else! She could have given me quite a vicious beating, if one of my cousins had not explained us both the situation. How embarrassing for the two of us...


----------



## Lugubert

She (East Asian) is significantly younger (and shorter) than me (a Swede). We had some months together, sharing one another's food habits and other things to a mutual liking. She helped me in learning her language, and I assisted her when needed for mine.

There were some interesting facets, like when she very sensibly told me that we both had been living on our own for quite some time developing our own preferences and habits, and that we would have to "adjust one another". Fortunately, I'm a language man, and could analyze her rather funny mistake.

I would have been sufficiently happy to go on, but there were a number of cultural differences with which she couldn't cope. We still are friends, though, intermittently e-mailing one another, and from my angle, I don't exclude another go at it.

If I fall in love yet another time, "race" or cultural background per se won't be issues. Very different religions might be an unsurmountable obstacle (I'm an atheist), but otherwise, I'll primarily go for the person.


----------



## izabella

Recently my friend's marriage came to an end due to "noticeable cultural differences". While both my friend and her husband had American as their second nationality, they were still "too different" to continue their lives together. 

Their families weren't faultless either. Both families had stated that they prefer to see their kids with someone that has the same ethnicity.

In my opinion, It can be a beautiful thing. But since the differences(culture, traditions, religion, language etc.) are undeniable both parties will have to work harder at making their relationship work.

How important is ethnicity and nationality in a marriage? I'm also interested in knowing the general views about this issue in your country.


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## Odrizzt

To me it is totally unimportant.
You marry a person, not a country/ethnie/political party/social layer/university attendant.

Even if all those late things compose the identity of the person you love andsomehow influence it, it does not exclusively define the person you marry.
Every person is unique, and the one you love is special ^^


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## BabyGirl301

i've been dating a Mexican American guy for 2 years now and I'm Lebanese American and although I love him dearly no matter what, culture does get in the way sometimes.  Things that I find acceptable and amusing can be offensive in his family. Not to mention the language barrier between families.  His family speaks spanish and my family speaks english. It's okay for me because I speak spanish fairly well...but our parents can't converse with each other.  It's intresting too because his family doesn't understand why we're not married yet, but I want to finish school first and have a career. Just little cultural differences can make things confusing.

At the same time too, however, the same intresting quirks make life intresting for us.  I love him because he's different and exciting and it's a whole new world for me. 

Overall it shouldn't make or break the relationship, but it does definately influence things sometimes.


----------



## Bridgita

I wanted to started a thread about Language barriers in relationships, but I searched and found this one, and I believe my issue is suitable for this thread.

Let's talk about DIFFERENT!!!!!  I just came back from the weekend from HELL!!  I know it sounds harsh, but let me just tell you!!!

I am from the east coast, USA, Brooklyn born and 100% American.  My boyfriend was born in the states, but from a military family, originally from Panamá.  I have no problem when I'm with just him and his parents, even his brother and his nephew.  Well this weekend, his 2 cousins, the spouse and their children and 2 aunts came to visit from Panamá.  (Actually, they are still here)  I live in PA now, and have for years.  They wanted to go see New York and of course, I went also.  I believed seeing New York, meant "Seeing New York" . . . . I was wrong.  ALL WE DID WAS SHOP . . .  Bridgita Bridgita . . where can we shop?  Needless to say, we spend the whole weekend around the Canal Street Area.  Now, my real issue is that, I am learning spanish.  I can read and I write it pretty well, but I never speak it. The whole trip, I was pretty much by myself.  No one tried to speak slow enough that I could understand and after about the first few hours, I felt like no one even bothered talking to me.  1 out of 13 . . . yet alone.  I was getting increasingly mad at my boyfriend, because I felt like he wasn't showing me enough attention and now I'm at the point that, I feel that I could NEVER do this trip again (or any other family trip) and this upsets me.  I'm beginning to think that this was a wake up call and this relationship can't work.  I will never be fluent enough to be able to contribute to their conversations.  I feel I will always be an outsider, on the outside looking in.  Many people will say "what does his family have to do with your relationship?"  My answer is "Everything."  They are a very close knit family and I can't go on family trips all the time, feeling like I don't belong, and that is exactly how I felt.  My boyfriend was saying "I haven't seen my family from Panamá in a couple years, stop being selfish."  This infuriated me, if he knew he was not going to pay attention, he shouldn't have brought me.  I was surprised by the lack of respect (or shall I say, lack of warmth) from his family.  I've never felt so invisible before.  I think this may be the end of our relationship.  Now be clear, I AM NOT ASKING FOR ADVICE, HELL I CAN'T EVEN TAKE MY OWN ADVICE.  I would just like to know if this has happen to anyone (of course it has) and if it worked out or failed.  His family is here for another 2 1/2 weeks and I just feel like I don't want to be involved at all.  We are not engaged or married, so in reality, it makes it even worse, because I'm not even family.  I don't belong in any way.  Would I really seem that rude as a non-family member to not want to be involved in "family outings/get togethers?"  Please someone tell my I'm not crazy and selfish rolleyes: ) . . lolololol . . . I read most of this thread except the whole battle against Vince . . . and none of it seemed to really speak particularly about the language barrier, but more about cultural differences.

I would just like to hear about other's trials, tribulations, failures successions . . . in these types of situations.

Thanks everyone!


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## ayaram7700

Hello foreros from everywhere, but especially Bridgita, 

Don't feel so bad, it's not your fault, etc. etc. As somebody said, not only cross cultural love is difficult, but anyway, I will tell you my experience in a few words: I met XX, a Chinese guy, divorced and with two grown up and married children. We really got along wonderfully,  although sometimes he lacked *my* kind of imagination, besides, being a scientist, he had never (or almost never) read fiction. We built a great relationship but his children did not like me ( the son was 29 and the daughter was 31 when they met me); they thought their dad could not, should not *ever *marry a Hispanic woman. The son actually told me in my face that he thought "*it was a mistake". *The very few times we got together, he would not speak to me, not even answer a couple of questions I asked him, he just ignored me. XX and I are grown up people, but he felt that it was wrong to marry me, because he would never be able to be with his children and grandchildren (?)  so we never did. In time, I married an American and it is ALSO difficult, his mother is weird and his siblings are nice but I've been in several situations like the one you described and it hurts me and angers me. And of course, my husband is NEVER  on my side. He will probably be neutral sometimes, but he NEVER  supports me as I expect him to (Something along the lines  "You are right and they are wrong"). I really would love to be back with my Chinese boyfriend, but... now I am married and I miss him sorely.

What I mean is, all relationships are tough. You need to be strong, and if you see this guy is good for you, well, just try to limit the times when you have to see his family. Nasty people are everywhere.

Patience and be brave. 

Saludos,

Ayaram7700


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## Amityville

Poor Bridgita, when you were making big efforts with the language too - but I had a similar experience with the family of a boyfriend who not only spoke my language but grew up practically next door to me. For his family I wasn't like them and they made me feel like the ALIEN; some people are just insular and in the face of the unknown which can be anyone outside immediate family and friends, clam up. Maybe to them you're exotic and scary.
However the shopping would worry me


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## GenJen54

Somewhere in the midst of this border-crossing, we stepped past the bounds of sharing anecdotes and into the realm of chat. 

Let's please get back to the topic at hand.  Many thanks.


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## Juri

I'm touched reading your pour out,Bridgite, because my doughter is just now in a similar situation. Ten years married with an Italian engineer, is fallen in love with a Croatian guy. She is now in "full immersion" in his big family. Far 800 km, she is "losen" for us.The character of her new environment is quite "_southern_", different a lot from us "_northern_" people,i.e. with big cultural differences. Is  love really blind? 
But she fells very well there. I mean not only because her former husband is a Scorpio with difficult character, non only because she has ability to adopt, but especially because she has _no language barriers!_ She studied Croatian and has been court translator in Italy.
_For a good approaching_ _the language is first!_


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## jinti

I don't think one experience is proof of How Things Are Always Going To Be. I'd be more interested in how my boyfriend handled it later, after I'd calmed down and we had a chance to talk. If he came to understand my point of view, mentioned the incident to his family as having been unintentionally hurtful to someone he loves, and acted differently next time, well, that'd be all I wanted.

I used to have a Puerto Rican boyfriend. My Spanish wasn't too bad, but it wasn't Puerto Rican Spanish and the further someone gets from standard or academic Spanish, the dimmer my understanding gets. Their Spanish was pretty far away from what I was comfortable with, and his father somehow managed to speak without ever moving his lips, which didn't help matters. Since Spanish was the language of the house, I did my best with it, but I used to get really mad. 

I'd go over there, follow an entire (almost) conversation by really working hard at it, then miss one thing and have them act like I couldn't understand _buenos días_ and probably never would. I got dismissed like a little kid, and my requests for explanations of what they said were just laughed at and ignored. Same thing when I offered to cook with his mom, or really did anything else. They weren't mean-spirited, just completely disinterested in having me participate or improve. I was just sort of ornamental in that household. (This, after being with their son for several years!)

I did finally bring it up to my boyfriend. He was kind of defensive about it at first -- I mean, they're his parents -- but I talked to him about it at a time when I wasn't angry over it, I made it a point to say how much I liked his family and wanted to spend time with them, and that I knew they didn't mean anything by this, but it was still hurtful to me and made me feel like I was destined to be a perpetual outsider. I don't know what happened after that, but next time I was over at his parents' place, his mom was making empanadas and asked if I wanted to learn how, she explained some words to me (ok, I actually knew those ones already, but still, she was trying) and generally treated me less like a poodle.  

I think his parents just didn't know what to do with me before and out of awkwardness, unintentionally slighted me.


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## Cereth

Hola Bridgita!

what can I tell you? Language it´s so important!!!  I think you can solve cultural barriers better if you understand the language.

To me Japan is Heaven and Hell when it comes to romantic things!
Japanese don´t speak that much... they say that reading eyes is the best thing to understand each other´s feelings (I don´t know if that "really" works between them),,, but I can tell you that for me mastering the eyes reading is almost impossible now, and they usually make mistakes when they are trying to imagine about my feelings (they don´t ask, they assume  )

I used to thought that my problem was more likely to be due to cultural barriers than language but it was just when I met this japanese guy that masters English, Spanish and Chinese that I understood how easily you can solve problems if you understand the whole language *idea (not grammar or synthax but idea)..*

I will just ask you to not despere...You don´t ask for advice but be patient as a latin woman I don´t think He doesn´t love you, you just have to find the best words to understand eachother.* Ganbatte ne! (échale ganas)*


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## ireney

*Moderator's note: Using personal examples as an aside or a reason for having a certain opinion on the subject of cross-cultural love is one thing; using this thread and therefore this forum to communicate your personal story of woe/success/whatever and/or giving advice on personal matters in a public thread is quite another.

Unless there is anything further to discuss on the matter/question posed on the opening post this thread will be closed.*


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## argentina84

Well...I would like to have a cross cultural marriage. It could be very educating and funny, but I am also be aware of the misunderstandings that may arise. I have already had some conflicts with some North American friends of mine. 

Also, I had a Dutch friend who would say he would be online to chat or that he would call me...and as I had learnt that the Dutch and the German are very puntual and that they keep their word...well...I would wait for hours!!! And he never called me... Either it was a misunderstanding....or I met the exception to the rule  We Latin Americans are thought to be rather unpunctual..but I was always there on time. Many times I got upset at his not keeping his word. I suppose that I was expecting him to behave like I had heard people in his nation did. That was interesting to analize for me. 

Something that called his attention was that I was always sending him messages and keeping in touch with him. That is very common in our culture. I explained him that we are always communicating with the people we love. I had never imagined that it could be different in other cultures.


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## Chaska Ñawi

When I started this thread almost two years ago, we had a much looser set of rules in the cultural forum.  Now, however, love is a topic we tend to avoid because it lends itself to considerable chat, personal opinion (after all, how can love _not _be personal?) and wandering away from the topic.

If I had started this thread in September 2007, it would have been deleted in short order.

I am not deleting it, but I am now closing it down to conform with our more stringent guidelines.

Thank you for your understanding.


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