# Mundial de fútbol-  su repercusión



## luis masci

(see below English version)
El mundial de fútbol no es precisamente un hecho que pase desapercibido por estas tierras; todo lo contrario. Pero lo que realmente quería comentarte es lo que yo le llamaría los efectos colaterales del mundial.
Aquí en Córdoba, el Ministerio de Educación, ya ha anunciado que autorizará la instalación de televisores en todas las escuelas de su jurisdicción, para ver los partidos en los que juegue Argentina. 
Ellos dicen que de esa manera los alumnos perderán 2 horas de clase; pero si en cambio no lo autorizaran se perdería el día completo ya que estiman que en ese caso prácticamente ninguno asistiría a la escuela.
En los lugares de trabajo también habrá problemas; ya que los partidos se
jugarán en horarios en que la actividad es mayor.
La pasión por el fútbol es aquí tan grande que se estima el país quedará
prácticamente paralizado durante las 2 horas de cada partido del seleccionado.
Por supuesto eso depende si tu equipo participa o no de la contienda, pero... ¿cómo crees que se verá afectado tu país/ región? 


The Football World Cup, isn’t something that pass unannounced in this country; all the opposite. But what I indeed want to comment is the consequences this event will arise. 
Here in Córdoba, the Education Ministry already has announced they will allow T.V. sets in all schools, in order to watch the games played by the national team.
They adduce this way the pupils will have 2 hours lost, but otherwise the whole day will be lost because they suppose none of them could go. 
In working places also going to be problems; due to many games will be during labor time.
The passion for the football is here such a big that it’s supposed the country will be paralyzed during 2 hours each time the national team plays. 
Of course that depends whether your team participate or not in the event, but... how do you think it will affect your country/ region?


Remember I’m only a Spanish speaker, any corrections will be welcome


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## maxiogee

luis masci said:
			
		

> The passion for the football is here such a big that it’s supposed the country will be paralyzed during 2 hours each time the national team plays.



Will the viewing in schools be confined to only the games in which Spain is playing, or will there be allowances which would see other games from group H being screened?


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## luis masci

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Will the viewing in schools be confined to only the games in which Spain is playing, or will there be allowances which would see other games from group H being screened?


Excuse me Maxiogee... seems you are misunderstanding what Córdoba I’m referring to.    
Yeah, viewing in the schools will be confined to only games in which Argentina is playing.


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## Fernando

In "this" Córdoba the Minister of Education has not allowed the children not to go to school, though I foresee a low attendance during the Spain matches.


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## Sallyb36

The Football World Cup, isn’t something that *will* pass unannounced in this country; *completely*the opposite. But what I indeed want to comment *on* *are*the consequences *that will arise because of *this event . 
Here in Córdoba, the Education Ministry has *already* announced they will allow T.V. sets in all schools, in order to watch the games played by the national team.
They *deduce that *this way the pupils will *lose* 2 hours , but otherwise the whole day *would* be lost because they *suspect that*none of them *would* go. 
In working places *there will also*be problems; due to many games *being*during *work*time.
The passion for football here is such a big *thing* that it’s supposed the country will be paralyzed *for*2 hours each time the national team plays. 
Of course that depends *on* whether your team participate or not in the event, but... how do you think it will affect your country/ region?


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## Sallyb36

Inglaterra estara paralizado cada vez que jugamos.


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## Bilma

Mexico stops breathing with each game!


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## ewhite

The World Cup will hardly make a wave in most of the United States, though I am pleased that Mexico is not involved in any games on Tuesday or Thursday nights in the month of June. Otherwise I would have to re-schedule my English classes. 

In regards to TVs in Córdoba, when I was young and there was a major league baseball team in Brooklyn (the Dodgers) we would have radios in the classrooms during the World Series when the Dodgers played the hated Yankees. As it was a Catholic school, we would pray throughout the game. Three Hail Marys, as I remember, for each batter. I doubt if any sports franchise in the USA now commands that kind of devotion.


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## diegodbs

Creo que en España pasará igual, pero quiero creer que sin llegar al extremo de poner televisores en las aulas  .

Hay varias razones por las cuales esa fiebre no me va a afectar.

- Me deshice del televisor hace un año y medio.
- No voy a pagar un billete de avión para ir a Argentina, disfrazado de colegial, para ver los partidos.
- No me gusta el fútbol.


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## Vanda

I think that happens everywhere when their teams are playing in The World's Cup. Here most of the work places have traditionally a big room with big screens , so the employees can come to work in the games days. Otherwise they won't. Same at schools. One can go out naked during the games..... there won't be anyone in the streets.


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## maxiogee

luis masci said:
			
		

> Excuse me Maxiogee... seems you are misunderstanding what Córdoba I’m referring to.
> Yeah, viewing in the schools will be confined to only games in which Argentina is playing.



Mis apologías sinceras


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## jester.

Aquí en Alemania (estoy concernido directamente) me molestan las publicidades: no hay ningún spot pubilicitario _sin_ fútbol y hay tantos productos con etiqueta "Fútbol Mundial Alemania bla bla bla", es increíble.
Hace unos días que vi en un folleto publicitario un "licor de fútbol".
Hoy mismo he visto en el supermercado un "delantal de fútbol" y recién mi madre me compró unos calcetínes con la inscripción "Fútbol Mundial 2006"...

Hay muchos juegos en la radio y en la televisión para ganar entradas de los partidos.

El capitán de nuestro equipo está herido: ¡ayer en las noticias se hablo de "la pantorrilla más importante de Alemania"!


Me gusta el fútbol, sinceramente, pero eso es baqstante exagerado.

Esto es el punto de vista de un afectado directo.


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## Chaska Ñawi

In Canada, the immigrant communities are paralysed whenever their home teams are playing (especially Italy, Portugal and Greece).  However, as a country, we're much more obsessed with hockey than soccer.

We're already paralysed several nights a week because we're at the Stanley Cup finals (national hockey league).  My students are coming in with huge bags under their eyes.


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## Henryk

> One can go out naked during the games..... there won't be anyone in the streets.


What? Your women watch football? 

Although Germany has the best women's team in the world nearly every woman in Germany hates football.


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## luis masci

First of all I want to say thank you ever so much to Sally for pointing out my English mistakes.


			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Mis apologías sinceras


Maxiogee, you don’t need apologize; after all this Córdoba from here is just in honor to that (placed in Spain) offered by Don Jerónimo Luis de Cabrera (the founder) in 1573 because his wife was born there.


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## Metztli

Henryk said:
			
		

> What? Your women watch football?
> 
> Although Germany has the best women's team in the world nearly every woman in Germany hates football.


 
Hi! I'm a woman... I love soccer!!! Use to be a loner but now more and more girls are joining me... I'm very excited about the Cup (TomorroW!!!)

As a Mexican, I'm used to see a whole different environment around the World Cup (both in Mexico City and New York City)... The whole world moves around the Cup... or so I thought... but I'm now in Texas and as hard as it is to believe... nobody cares... nobody knows what the World Cup is and there is no "World Cup Party" anywhere... devastating!

Good Luck to all!!!


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## Sofia29

Henryk said:
			
		

> What? Your women watch football?
> 
> Although Germany has the best women's team in the world nearly every woman in Germany hates football.


 
Ooooobvio, yo me junto el sábado con todas mis amigas para ver Argentina - Costa de Marfil.


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## luis masci

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> We're already paralysed several
> nights a week because we're at the Stanley Cup
> finals (national hockey league). My students are
> coming in with huge bags under their eyes.


Seems we live in certain aspects, in different worlds, 
Chaska. We are completely clueless of it.  



			
				j3st3r said:
			
		

> Hay muchos juegos en la radio y en la
> televisión para ganar entradas de los
> partidos.


Hablando de juegos y promociones por el mundial…
Les cuento un poquito como es acá. Desde ya, montones de comercios ofrecen juegos como adivinar quienes llegarán a la final,que equipo ganará...
Una cadena de negocios dedicada a los electrodomésticos que trabaja con tarjetas de crédito, desde principios de este año, a lanzado una promoción anunciando que si Argentina sale campeón los clientes solo pagarán la mitad del importe original. 
O bien han tomado recaudos para poder bancar todos los 50% de los cuales podrían tener que hacerse cargo, o bien no le tienen ninguna fe a la selección. O dicho de una manera más positiva tienen fe en que no tendrán que bancar gastos extras, ya que piensan que ni modo que la selección pueda llegar a ganar el campeonato.


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## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> Hablando de juegos y promociones por el mundial…
> Les cuento un poquito como es acá. Desde ya, montones de comercios ofrecen juegos como adivinar quienes llegarán a la final,que equipo ganará...
> Una cadena de negocios dedicada a los electrodomésticos que trabaja con tarjetas de crédito, desde principios de este año, a lanzado una promoción anunciando que si Argentina sale campeón los clientes solo pagarán la mitad del importe original.



Me pregunto si en Brasil ofrecen estas promociones... Bromas aparte, creo que esta es la gran oportunidad de Argentina de traer una tercera copa a Latinoamerica. Henry Kissinger got it all wrong when he wrote in the latest issue of Newsweek: "But its composure (Argentina's) is not always equal to its talent."  Veremos, veremos, despues lo sabremos...


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## mora

Hello

In Canada it is exactly as Chaska said...but I am crazy for it and am very excited that for the first time I will be getting video highlights via my cellphone. Many of my women friends enjoy it as well, we will be getting together to watch on the weekend, probably at a sports bar with big screen tv. My hope is that Argentina takes it all, but I would also enjoy it some of the smaller countries and first timers make a good showing and at least get out of the first round. Because my country is never in the World Cup, I can switch my allegiances pretty easily, guess I have to cheer for my hemisphere but most of all I would just like to see great play. 

mora


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## Krümelmonster

Yo tambien soy una chica y me gusta mucho el futbol (solo durante la copa del mundo ), pero yo pienso que alemania no es una "nacion de Fans", hay algunos que aman al futbol con toda pasion y hay los demas que critican todo (asi se hace en alemania ) - la manera de la que han distribuido los biletes, las desiciones del coach, que hay tanto trafico... todo!

Creo que hay tanta publicidad y tantas peliculas en relacion con futbol (Kick it like Beckham, Wunder von Bern, reportajes sobre Kliensman...) porque NO somos tan apasionados como otras naciones y porque quieren "mejorar" esto.
(Conoczco a muchos que solo quieren que Alemania gana a causa de su "Bahncard" - un billete de rebaja a todos los viajes en tren que se prolonga cada vez alemania gana - si ganan la copa, vale hasta el fin del ano... Somos tan estereotipicos...)


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## maxiogee

The World Cup
_
panem et circenses!_


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## lizzeymac

Henryk said:
			
		

> What? Your women watch football?
> 
> Although Germany has the best women's team in the world nearly every woman in Germany hates football.




American soccer / European football is the fastest growing sport for school children in the US.  It is especially popular among girls.  My 3 teenaged female cousins have been playing at school & in a summer league since they were 7 years old & one of them just received a soccer scholarship for college. 

I don't think all of NY will stop breathing during the Cup but people in more & more neighborhoods will be watching.  The bars & casual resturants in my neighborhood have signs in their windows advertising the World Cup & boasting of how big their TVs are. One bar will be serving the beer &  snacks native to each team during their match - Argentina Night, Germany Night, etc.  10 years ago you would only see this sort of thing for American football or baseball games.


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## Henryk

lizzeymac said:
			
		

> American soccer / European football is the fastest growing sport for school children in the US. It is especially popular among girls. My 3 teenaged female cousins have been playing at school & in a summer league since they were 7 years old & one of them just received a soccer scholarship for college.
> 
> I don't think all of NY will stop breathing during the Cup but people in more & more neighborhoods will be watching. The bars & casual resturants in my neighborhood have signs in their windows advertising the World Cup & boasting of how big their TVs are. One bar will be serving the beer & snacks native to each team during their match - Argentina Night, Germany Night, etc. 10 years ago you would only see this sort of thing for American football or baseball games.


From a documentary I learnt that football (or "soccer") is the number one youth sport in the USA. 

Women's football seems generally very popular, didn't  a football match in the USA fill a stadium with 100,000 spectators once? That'd be unthinkable in Europe.



> Hi! I'm a woman... I love soccer!!! Use to be a loner but now more and more girls are joining me... I'm very excited about the Cup (TomorroW!!!)
> 
> As a Mexican, I'm used to see a whole different environment around the World Cup (both in Mexico City and New York City)... The whole world moves around the Cup... or so I thought... but I'm now in Texas and as hard as it is to believe... nobody cares... nobody knows what the World Cup is and there is no "World Cup Party" anywhere... devastating!


Well, it's the nearly the same with the Super Bowl over here. Some would first think of something to drink (a "Bowle" is a cocktail in German).

Most women here think: "Well, there are 20 players _(although there are 22)_ running after one ball. What a stupid sport!"


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## lizzeymac

Soccer is popular with the schools because it is much less dangerous than American football, the equipment & uniforms cost 65% less, and it is a great sport for girls, physically.  We have laws that required the schools to provide sports activitives for boys & girls in equal measure.  
My cousins run circles around the boy's soccer team & outscore them every year.  

(Howay the Lads)


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## Krümelmonster

Henryk said:
			
		

> Most women here think: "Well, there are 20 players _(although there are 22)_ running after one ball. What a stupid sport!"



As a German woman I have to tell you that there is a certain strategy in leaving the keeper in his goal and have the other 20 run after the ball... never thought about this one? 
German women are not as dumb as you think... and when they say they don't understand, they just don't WANT to.


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## Krümelmonster

I just saw the opening of the worldcup and was completely shocked... first they said they hope the World Cup in Germany will finish with the last prejudices... and then they bring that Bavarian shit, two little blonde children that remind me of history classes about a time we don't like to remember and then they take women with silly clothes and hang them from the ceiling... They made me being ashamed of being german again...
I guess this was internationally broadcasted and I'd like to know what they said about this in foreign television... (I think this was the worst they could do about the prejudices!)

Sorry to all Bavarians who can identify with what I just saw... especially the ones with bells who made those obscene shaking gestures... I just wonder how they can pretend to represent Germany that way.


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## GONTA

YO DE VEZ EN CUANDO DISFRUTO DE UN PARTIDO DE FUTBOL, PERO ME PARECE TRISTE JACTARSE DE CÓMO PARALIZA EL MUNDO, Y LE DAN LA RAZON A QUIENES LO DESIGNAN "EL OPIO DEL PUEBLO". Creo que la educacion ya está bastante deteriorada como para que además tenga que pasar a segundo plano para la conveniencia del futbol y los patrocinadores de la COPA.
 Esa es mi opinión al respecto; al colegio que asistía yo, también le han agregado television en el comedor (pero desde antes de esto) y no me parece adecuado: SE SUPONE QUE VAN A ESTUDIAR NO A SEGUIR CON LO QUE HACEN EN CASA


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## luis masci

GONTA said:
			
		

> *YO DE VEZ EN CUANDO DISFRUTO DE UN PARTIDO DE FUTBOL, PERO ME PARECE TRISTE JACTARSE DE CÓMO PARALIZA EL MUNDO, Y LE DAN LA RAZON A QUIENES LO DESIGNAN "EL OPIO DEL PUEBLO". *


No se si lo de “jactarse” lo dices por el mensaje inaugural del cual soy autor. Si es así, te recomendaría que lo vuelvas a leer; esta ves con más detenimiento. 
No se adonde ves la jactancia. Yo soy simplemente un observador, que lo único que hace es contar lo que pasa a su alrededor . No he emitido opinión alguna (al menos hasta el momento) ni a favor ni en contra y me he limitado a preguntar a los demás foreros que ven ellos a su alrededor. Esa es una excelente manera de tener un panorama de cuales son las reacciones en diferentes partes del mundo y analizarlas. 
Ese es mi objetivo; nada que ver con lo que tu creíste ver. Si conocieras cual es mi opinión al respecto, verías que lo último que se me podría ocurrir sería jactarme de que el fútbol paralice mi país.
Me gustaría que dijeses de que país eres, ya que el español se habla en muchos lados y no da una información precisa de tu procedencia.
También me gustaría que escribieses con letras minúsculas ya que las mayúsculas dan la impresión de soberbia y “jactancia”.


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## diegodbs

Puedes gastar el tiempo como gustes, pero no en el foro.

Te ruego que leas las reglas.

Diego. (Moderador)


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## alc112

luis masci said:
			
		

> Aquí en Córdoba, el Ministerio de Educación, ya ha anunciado que autorizará la instalación de televisores en todas las escuelas de su jurisdicción, para ver los partidos en los que juegue Argentina.


Acá en Entre Ríos el Ministerio de Educación se lavó las manos
Cada director de cada escuela tenía que decidir qué hacer.
En mi escuela el director, nuestro "pichón de diablo", optó por dejarnos retirar media hora antes de que empiece cada partido de Argentina.
lo malo es que en mi caso, sólo será un día, porque Un día cae sábado y otro día el partido es a eso de 10 am y salgo de educación física a las 9.30. De todas maneras, safo un día.
En otras escuelas se optó por poner televisores y en otras por dejar que los alumnos no asistan a clases ese día.
ahora falta que Inés o Eugin nos cuente que hicieron en Bs As


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## ITA

Acá en Buenos Aires, en la mayoría de las escuelas se puede ver el mundial.
Creo que la idea no está mal y si el doscente aprovecha esto para que los chicos se interesen por la geografía o la historia,mucho mejor.Desde ésta experiencia se los puede introducir de una forma mas entretenida a estudiar cosa que muchas veces son densas o aburridas,pero bueno todo depende de la capacidad del doscente y de las ganas que tenga de hacer algo diferente.
En mi caso personal,pienso disfrutar de cada partido y sobre todo del seleccionado de mi país,me gusta mucho el "fobal" y para mi es un gran acontecimiento.
Viele eier "Argentina"!!!!
Desde Bs As y vestida de celeste y blanca,Ita.


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## *francy**

Hola, yo soy italiana, y te puedo asegurar que todo el pais se paraliza durante los partidos en los que juega nuestro equipo. Ya la gente ha puesto banderas italianas en las ventanas y los ninos llevan las camisetas azules de la seleccion.
Hace unos dias una radio nacional comentò la decision de algunas municipalidades de Argentina donde se quiere poner la tele en las escuela (lo que tu estabas diciendo) Hubo todo un debate!

Suerte a todos y...que gane el equipo mas simaptico...


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## Pumpkin72

Aquí también se paraliza todo. Uno puede seguir el partido sin poner la tele, basta con oír los gritos que salen de las casas, o el silencio sepulcral que indica que, oh cielos, _perdemos_.

Por mi parte, toda esa expectación me parece muy buena y deseable para todo aficionado al cine, como yo. A ver cuándo si no podría ir y tener toda la sala para mí 

Ejem, quiero decir... ¡ÉS-PÁ-ÑÁ!


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## Metztli

A mi me parece que deberiamos estar felices por el hecho de que casi todo un planeta se paralice por un deporte y no por una guerra. Que podamos llevar a las escuelas televisiones para ver un partido y no un pais invadiendo a otro.

O no?


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## diegodbs

> Creo que la idea no está mal y si el doscente aprovecha esto para que los chicos se interesen por la geografía o la historia,mucho mejor.Desde ésta experiencia se los puede introducir de una forma mas entretenida a estudiar cosa que muchas veces son densas o aburridas


 
Hola, ITA.
Si esos chicos logran aprender, con tan revolucionario método, algo distinto a la geografía del estadio (sistemas de regadío del césped, gramíneas que mejor se adaptan al roce del balón, etc) o a la historia de los fichajes y lesiones sufridas por los jugadores a lo largo de su carrera, no dejes de avisarnos. 
Yo ya he empezado a preparar un test en el que preguntaré la capital de Sri Lanka, los ríos de Senegal y una breve descripción de las clases sociales rumanas durante la época de las guerras napoleónicas en Europa. Espero que esos chicos no me defrauden.


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## ITA

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Hola, ITA.
> Si esos chicos logran aprender, con tan revolucionario método, algo distinto a la geografía del estadio (sistemas de regadío del césped, gramíneas que mejor se adaptan al roce del balón, etc) o a la historia de los fichajes y lesiones sufridas por los jugadores a lo largo de su carrera, no dejes de avisarnos.
> Yo ya he empezado a preparar un test en el que preguntaré la capital de Sri Lanka, los ríos de Senegal y una breve descripción de las clases sociales rumanas durante la época de las guerras napoleónicas en Europa. Espero que esos chicos no me defrauden.



Me refiero a que a travez del deporte se puede buscar la variante para que los chicos se enganchen con temas que a veces le resultan densos y lejanos, por que no,nada es sólo una idea sólo que para muchos no es fácil romper los esquemas y animarse a algo distinto.


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## luis masci

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> I just saw the opening of the worldcup and was completely shocked... first they said they hope the World Cup in Germany will finish with the last prejudices... and then they bring that Bavarian shit, two little blonde children that remind me of history classes about a time we don't like to remember and then they take women with silly clothes and hang them from the ceiling... They made me being ashamed of being german again...
> I guess this was internationally broadcasted and I'd like to know what they said about this in foreign television... (I think this was the worst they could do about the prejudices!)
> 
> Sorry to all Bavarians who can identify with what I just saw... especially the ones with bells who made those obscene shaking gestures... I just wonder how they can pretend to represent Germany that way.


Here the media said it looked mostly as a typical Germany ceremony. 
Well...as a matter of fact I’ve noticed some rare gestures that you are referring to, but I thought it was just the way of that dance. Maybe rather weird gestures…but I don’t know about stranger dances.
The good thing about this opening ceremony: it was short.


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## maxiogee

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> I just saw the opening of the worldcup and was completely shocked... first they said they hope the World Cup in Germany will finish with the last prejudices... and then they bring that Bavarian shit, two little blonde children that remind me of history classes about a time we don't like to remember and then they take women with silly clothes and hang them from the ceiling... They made me being ashamed of being german again...
> I guess this was internationally broadcasted and I'd like to know what they said about this in foreign television... (I think this was the worst they could do about the prejudices!)
> 
> Sorry to all Bavarians who can identify with what I just saw... especially the ones with bells who made those obscene shaking gestures... I just wonder how they can pretend to represent Germany that way.



Hi Krümelmonster,
We've not 'met' here before.
I didn't see the ceremony, but I can gather from your reaction that you have seen how dreadful it can be when TV companies and events organisers try to sum up a country in a visual way.
Ireland won the Eurovision Song Contest seven times between 1970 and 1996. As a result of each victory our national broadcaster got to host it the following year. These programmes used to include 'snapshots' of Irish life - they were generally dire. Although not referring to a past we'd rather forget, as in your case, we just learned to turn a blind eye to them, as we natives were not the target audience for them.
Welcome to international broadcasting!


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## luis masci

I don’t like anthems.
I think to sing anthems before each game is in some way involucrate a simple sport match into a national matter. 
No mention how annoying it’d be when a bunch of fans decide boo some anthem. 
So I think it’s just motive for controversy; I’d kick it out.


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## Bettie

I remember France 98 I was still living in Mexico and working in a Law Firm, once I went to the Court House just before Mexico played and there was nobody there, but the employees, and when I came back to the office there was ready the tv, chips and sodas, the bad thing is that Mexico lost against Germany.

I have a friend in Panama who told me that the Principal will let them watch the games at school and Panama is not even playing!!!

Here, near Tampa, nobody care, but I do have a tv in the office, even before the World Cup, so I am watching the games now.


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## dulciquixote

luis masci said:
			
		

> ¿cómo crees que se verá afectado tu país/ región?


Here in Utah nobody noticed when we lost our first game the other day.  Half the people I talk to don't even know that the World Cup is happening . . . That's why I'm cheering for Argentina.

Aqui nadie se dió cuenta cuando perdimos contra la República Checa el lunes.  La media de mis amigos no saben que sucede la Copa.  Por eso, espero que la gana Argentina.

(Pueden corregirme el español, incluso los accentos si quieren.  Gracias)


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## Metztli

dulciquixote said:
			
		

> Aqui nadie se dió cuenta cuando perdimos contra la República Checa el lunes. La media de mis amigos no saben que sucede la Copa. Por eso, espero que la gana Argentina.
> 
> (Pueden corregirme el español, incluso los accentos si quieren. Gracias)


 
Aqui nadie se dió cuenta de que perdimos contra la República Checa el lunes. La mayoría de mis amigos no saben que está el Mundial/ o que está jugándose la Copa. Por eso, espero que se la lleve Argentina. (yo también)


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## ITA

Gracias!!!! yo también espero que podamos traer la copa.Pero también es cierto que éste acontecimiento nos hace olvidar muchos temas políticos y claro.....los gobernantes contentos con eso! OJO genteee!!!! a no distraerse demasiado


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## luis masci

Hey Metztli, no olvides que si México y Argentina clasifican, es bastante probable que se enfrenten en la próxima fase. En ese caso supongo que torcerás por México y nosotros por Argentina. Seremos muy buenos amigos antes y después del partido; pero durante el mismo seremos acérrimos enemigos.  
ITA, el fútbol, como elemento que atrae grandes masas ha sido manipulado y usado políticamente, lo es y lo seguirá siendo. Está en cada uno de nosotros darle el lugar que merece, no dejando nuestras normales actividades por algún partido en especial, ni en el caso de los que tienen la suerte de estar en Alemania, no pagar cualquier cosa por una entrada de reventa. No hay que olvidar que para nosotros es solamente un deporte, aunque para otros es un gran negocio. Pero esos son los menos.


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## Bettie

luis masci said:
			
		

> Hey Metztli, no olvides que si México y Argentina clasifican, es bastante probable que se enfrenten en la próxima fase. En ese caso supongo que torcerás por México y nosotros por Argentina. Seremos muy buenos amigos antes y después del partido; pero durante el mismo seremos acérrimos enemigos.


 
Es probable que nos veamos en la próxima fase!!! Noooooo, yo preferiría vérmelas con Holanda, más que nada porque me gustaría que tanto México como Argentina siguieran avanzando!!

Yo entro a otro foro donde se habla de series de televisión y bueno, no les quiero contar que ahora nos la pasamos hablando de futbol, el futbol está en todas partes...


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## Krümelmonster

Yo no estoy de acuerdo con los que ocultan sus problemas politicas entre espectaculas como la copa, pero tambien se puede ver de otro lado... por ejemplo nosotros, los alemanes, siempre vemos todo negro. Durante la copa -aunque no tiene much razon- todos veen las cosas mas positivos. Eso me gusta mucho, porque es mas realistico que siempre decir que todo es malo, no lo es!

O por ejemplo cuando Alemania gano la copa en 1954 eso fue muy importante para nuestra relacion con el mundo... despues de la guerra mundial y nosotros siempre los malos, eso nos (o a la generacion de mis abuelos) daba un poco de su dignidad que habian perdido y les ayudaba mucho a empezar de nuevo...
Claro que el futbol no cambia a las cosas, pero quizas cambia a nuestra actitud en cuanto a los problemas, y eso puede cambiar a las cosas... (no se si eso se entiende en mi castellano malo...)


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## gato2

No creo que aqui se paralice la vida a causa del Mundial pero si que es verdad que mucha gente se reune en los bares para ver los partidos juntos y poder compartir las alegrias y decepciones del partido. Por otra parte hay otros que no lo seguimos y solo nos vamos enterando por las noticias o los periodicos.


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## ITA

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Yo no estoy de acuerdo con los que ocultan sus problemas politicos ante espectaculos como la copa, pero tambien se puede ver de otro lado... por ejemplo nosotros, los alemanes, siempre vemos todo negro. Durante la copa -aunque no tiene much razon- todos ven las cosas de manera mas positivas. Eso me gusta mucho, porque es mas realista que siempre decir que todo es malo, no lo es!
> 
> O por ejemplo cuando Alemania gano la copa en 1954 eso fue muy importante para nuestra relacion con el mundo... despues de la guerra mundial nosotros siempre éramos los malos, eso nos (o a la generacion de mis abuelos) daba un poco de su dignidad que se habia perdido y les ayudaba mucho a empezar de nuevo...
> Claro que el futbol no cambia a las cosas, pero quizas cambia  nuestra actitud en cuanto a los problemas, y eso puede cambiar a las cosas... (no se si eso se entiende  mi castellano malo...)



Si me permitis un par de correcciones acá van...
Tu castellano se entiende muy bien (mucho mas que mi alemán )


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## Krümelmonster

gracias ITA!


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## luis masci

Hoy salí a la calle a la hora del partido entre Argentina / Servia & Montenegro y parecía que era de madrugada a pesar que eran algo más de las 10 A.M.; no había casi movimiento. 
Ni bien terminó el partido se poblaron las calles con un desfile de gente con banderas (gran mayoría de adolescentes) y los vehículos que pasaban acompañaban con sus bocinas. 
Yo pensaba... que poco necesitan algunos para ser felices.
No se bien como habrá sido en las escuelas pero dado el clima festivo después del 6-0, mucho dudo que hayan tenido mucho éxito el tratar de retomar las actividades normales.


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## Tresley

In England lots of people have England flags attached to their cars. Do an image search on Google for 'England car flags' to see what I mean! Lots of people have England flags hanging on the front of their houses, in the gardens, on fences etc to show their support. When England is playing football the whole nation comes to a standstill!! The roads are empty because everyone is at home, in pubs or watching the games on big screens set up in city centres. Most companies are allowing their employees to leave work early to watch the football matches or have tellies in their canteens. Everything stops whilst England is playing!

The Football World Cup really is a world stopping event. It's only in the USA that it doesn't have this effect, I think. They just like their minority sports over there (American football, baseball etc). And! And! The Americans call it soccer and say it's a girls' game! How insulting!


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## asm

Inlcuida nuestra CORDOBA veracruzana


			
				Bilma said:
			
		

> Mexico stops breathing with each game!


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## ITA

luis masci said:
			
		

> Hoy salí a la calle a la hora del partido entre Argentina / Servia & Montenegro y parecía que era de madrugada a pesar que eran algo más de las 10 A.M.; no había casi movimiento.
> Ni bien terminó el partido se poblaron las calles con un desfile de gente con banderas (gran mayoría de adolescentes) y los vehículos que pasaban acompañaban con sus bocinas.
> Yo pensaba... que poco necesitan algunos para ser felices.
> No se bien como habrá sido en las escuelas pero dado el clima festivo después del 6-0, mucho dudo que hayan tenido mucho éxito el tratar de retomar las actividades normales.



Acá en la capital fue una fiesta luego el partido,el obelisco colmado de gente festejando y los autos haciendo sonar sus bocinas,ayer había un clima de fiesta  que desde hace rato no veía y la verdad es que pensé lo mismo que vos (ésto de necesitar poco para ser felices) no sé a mi me alegró el día .
En las escuelas (las que tenían alumnos) se vió y festejó el partido y luego retomaron sus actividades normales, aunque supongo que con alguna dificultad por la exitación del triunfo


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## luis masci

Si ITA, he visto por televisión como festejaban en Bs As. Aquí en el centro de la ciudad fue algo parecido; por supuesto considerando las diferencias de tamaño de las respectivas ciudades.


			
				Tresley said:
			
		

> The Football World Cup really is a world stopping event. It's only in the USA that it doesn't have this effect, I think. They just like their minority sports over there (American football, baseball etc). And! And! The Americans call it soccer and say it's a girls' game! How insulting!


Well... first of all, I don’t think all Americans say it; and even so I don’t think to say it’s a girls’game would be insulting. 
Maybe to say so is a clear sample that football (soccer) is pretty less dangerous than most American sports. But seems Americans are introducing each time more and more into football issues. As you could see this afternoon (evening for you) USA team has just drawn 1-1 with one of the powerful teams as Italy is (or at least used to be  )


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## maxiogee

Tresley said:
			
		

> And! The Americans call it soccer



a) Why shouldn't they? The word "Soccer" was a British creation.

b) Countries which have their own foot & ball games need to call it something. Ireland has Gaelic Football, and while soccer is fairly popular here our native game is still the major sport here. Soccer isn't as popular as it was in our Jack Charlton days - when we were also-rans on a few occasions. Do a Google for australia +football and you get what the non-Australian calls "Aussie rules" - their version of Rugby.


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## Doncelle

Hola a todos!
Hey ---J3--- en Alemania! Si yo fuese tu, [por supuesto, respeto tu opinion  ] me gozaria todo lo que tuviera que ver con futbol soccer!!! es mas, como buena hincha del futbol me conformo con tener baloncitos de futbol como una pulsera que yo misma hice. ----Krumelmonster -----tu castellano es fantastico! sigue escribiendo!
Amigos de Argentina y Mexico, estoy de acuerdo.    Ah!  he visto por internet comerciales de Argentina y Mexico me encantan,  se "siente tanto" que aunque no sea no sean mis paises con gusto me uniria a su celebracion! Ya hasta me he aprendido las canciones !!!
He podido ver a los equipos que nunca han participado y me emociona su "emocion". Cuando era mas pequena siempre quise jugar pero por ser del genero femenino, no pude. Yo estoy entre Oceanside y Los Angeles en USA, aqui en USA no se ve mal que las ninas jueguen soccer. Pero bueno, siempre que puedo lo gozo. Y si, por supuesto si tengo que estudiar y trabajar y me las he ingeniado para tener una TV tan pequenita que no me la puedan ver, y aunque el balon de futbol se vea como un "puntito" me emociona mucho poder ver los juegos. Asi mi nacion no haya participado nunca en los mundiales. Creo que me fascina desde que lo entendi, desde 1998! Veia a mi padre y a mis hermanos como "respiraba" el futbol!
Felicidades a todos a quienes aman y no aman el futbol ! Despues de todo es solo un juego pero que si lo observas fijamente, veras que en los rostros de cada jugador y en el de cada hincha reflejado un sentimiento y asi lo aprendes a gustar, te nace la pasion y por consiguiente tienes gotitas "extra" de Felicidad !  como que por momentos todo lo demas lo vemos como por un lente que nos permite "que no nos llegue" tan pesado lo que nos tenga en suplicio,  mis preocupaciones  si , siguen alli pero como envueltas en algodon...
Arriba  y joga bonito!


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## Danielaf

Yes, we women watch football. I found myself watching Saudi Arabia-Tunisia. Are you familiar with the saying 'If you can't defeat your enemy, join him'...that's what I did, born and living in Argentina, married and mother of two boys, what else was there to do???
Sit down, relax and enjoy Argentina's JOGO BONITO against Serbia and Montenegro.
Whether we like football or not is irrelevant in this country, it is simply part of our culture, Argentina plays, the country is paralized. Schools are part of the country.

My two cents,

Daniela


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## jester.

Doncelle said:
			
		

> Hey ---J3--- en Alemania! Si yo fuese tu, [por supuesto, respeto tu opinion  ] me gozaria todo lo que tuviera que ver con futbol soccer!!!



Pues, a mí me gusta también, especialmente el deporte en sí, pero todo lo demás es de verdad exagerado


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## Danielaf

En Buenos Aires no sólo pusieron televisores o pantalla gigante en las escuelas, sino que salió un comunicado oficial de la dirección general de escuelas que se notificó a todos los docentes, autorizando a ver los partidos en horas de clase.

Prefiero que los chicos estén en las aulas compartiendo el fútbol con sus docentes y no vagando por calles desiertas fumando porros y tomando cerveza...

Daniela


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## Pumpkin72

Danielaf said:
			
		

> Prefiero que los chicos estén en las aulas compartiendo el fútbol con sus docentes y no vagando por calles desiertas fumando porros y tomando cerveza...


Bueno, todo es relativo. Mejor que vaguen por calles desiertas, fumen porros y tomen cerveza que ir por ahí degollando ancianitas o desvalijando bancos, por ejemplo 

O dicho de otro modo: como por desgracia a peor siempre podemos ir, si de la comparación con algo peor dependiera, cualquier cosa sería justificable


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## LV4-26

A consequence of the World Cup in France ? Heard on the radio this morning. When the French team plays a match, there's an incredible increase of water consumption at halftime : everybody goes to the toilets at the same time. So the technical services have to watch it otherwise the pressure decreases. 

PS : I'm not joking, it's perfectly true.


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## ITA

Porque no nos olvidemos que este evento es deportivo, pero antes que
nada es un gran negocio; y no sería nada bueno que el equipo anfitrión
deje el torneo prematuramente.


Che!!! y el juego limpio....dónde quedó????? 
Pero será de dios !!! a donde hemos llegado!


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## Everness

ITA said:
			
		

> Porque no nos olvidemos que este evento es deportivo, pero antes que
> nada es un gran negocio; y no sería nada bueno que el equipo anfitrión
> deje el torneo prematuramente.
> 
> 
> Che!!! y el juego limpio....dónde quedó?????
> Pero será de dios !!! a donde hemos llegado!



Juego limpio? El partido Holanda-Portugal fue de terror. 4 tarjetas rojas y 16 amarillas. Si hubiesen jugado 2 equipos sudamericanos, la primera plana de los diarios europeos hubiesen hecho referencia a los "animales sudamericanos". Pero como fueron equipos europeos, todos estan calladitos. Fuera de los estadios, el comportamiento de los simpatizantes de la mayoria de los equipos es ejemplar. Son los hooligans ingleses y los skinheads alemanes los que se comportan en forma avergonzante. Define double standards... 

Tambien estoy de acuerdo con vos cuando decis que el mundial es un gran negocio en el cual se manejan cifras varias veces millonarias. Por eso le regalaron un penal a Italia.

Lo increible es que si bien sabemos todo esto, ¡nos emocionamos hasta los tuetanos viendo estos partidos!


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## Metztli

Everness said:
			
		

> Lo increible es que si bien sabemos todo esto, ¡nos emocionamos hasta los tuetanos viendo estos partidos!


 
Exacto!!! esto es un caso para el diván, la muestra misma del inconciente colectivo... 

Todos sabemos que la final está programada para que sea Alemania Vs. Brasil y que esta vez va a ganar Alemania... todos sabemos que le robaron el partido a Australia (como en Corea se lo robaron a España) y todos sabemos que aunque Argentina juegue mejor que Alemania no lo van a dejar pasar...

Sin embargo, ahi estámos pegados a los partidos, gozando, sufriendo, disfrutando, emocionandonos... viviendo la Copa con toda intensidad... que loco, no?

Suerte, Argentina!!!


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## grasshopper

Everness said:
			
		

> Si hubiesen jugado 2 equipos sudamericanos, la primera plana de los diarios europeos hubiesen hecho referencia a los "animales sudamericanos". Pero como fueron equipos europeos, todos estan calladitos. Fuera de los estadios, el comportamiento de los simpatizantes de la mayoria de los equipos es ejemplar. Son los hooligans ingleses y los skinheads alemanes los que se comportan en forma avergonzante. Define double standards...


Hola, no estoy de acuerdo con esto. Deberías haber leído lo que decían en los "tabloids" de aquí después del partido Holanda-Portugal... y a esos mismos tabloids les encantaría que hubiera algún incidente muy serio con los hooligans ingleses (lo cual, afortunadamente, no ha ocurrido hasta ahora), simplemente porque con ese tipo de titulares venden más periódicos....


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## norma 126

La verdad es que estoy saturada de futbol
en la televisión no se habla de otra cosa, hay que soportar 
a todos los tarados que estan en Alemania haciendo "programas"
de televisión totalmente estupidos, sin sentido alguno, no saben 
que decir, por lo menos en Argentina es asi.Ah y no se preocupen que
la selección Argentina no va a ganar, por más que juegue super bien.


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## Krümelmonster

No creo que la gente reacciona de manera diferente si la violencia se produce por europeos o suramericanos (y en este caso pienso que aqui tenemos un imagen muy bueno del "Fairplay" de los suramericanos).
Pero me parece muy ironico que lo has escrito, porque yo tambien ha dicho: "Si los Alemanes se hubieran comportado asi, seriamos los nacis otra vez y producirian una guerra!" 

Bueno, quizas es normal que todos piensan que en los otros paises la gente piensa mal de uno... (Aqui en Alemania los que no son superoptimisticos piensan que Argentina es la partida mas dificil... pero si metztli dice que vamos a ganar, bueno, entonces no hace falta tener miedo de la mano de dios y los magos del balon y todo... )


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## luis masci

luis masci said:
			
		

> Porque no nos olvidemos que este evento es deportivo, pero antes que
> nada es un gran negocio; y no sería nada bueno que el equipo anfitrión
> deje el torneo prematuramente.


Lamento haber acertado nuevamente


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## Metztli

La final ya está cantada desde los 8avos... Alemania Vs Brasil... como el Mundial pasado... con la variante de q' esta vez le toca ganar a Alemania y asi las dos principales confederaciones quedan contentas... y los patrocinadores saben muy bien que esa final vende bien.


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## Krümelmonster

Pues, yo estoy esperando que la final sera Alemania vs Portugal...
Bueno, que nosotros ganemos al final  (Habiamos sido el segundo demasiadas veces)
En alemania hay una cancion que todos cantan todo el tiempo con el titulo "54, 74, 90, 2006"... Eso fueron los anos que hemos ganado, y esperamos que ganamos otra vez... es muy divertido, el grupo que canta eso dice que es logico porque han calculado que 54x74-90=2006


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## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> Lamento haber acertado nuevamente



Vos vivis en Argentina. Me dijeron que salio un articulo en el Buenos Aires Herald que explicaba como se "arman" los mundiales para maximizar la ganancia economica. La FIFA es la mafia personificada. Se mueve demasiada guita para dejar las cosas al azar. 

Lo que me da risa es que el tecnico de los EEUU y algunos distinguidos periodistas (e.g: John Powers) dicen que la distribucion de los grupos fue injusta y que a los EEUU les toco el verdadero grupo de la muerte. Es interesante que cuando se trata de materia economica los EEUU defienden a rajatabla el comercio libre, la no regulacion, etc etc. No importa que paises chicos compitan con paises poderosos. Las reglas capitalistas se aplican a todos y nadie puede chillar. Sin embargo, cuando se trata de futbol y apenas nuestra seleccion es eliminada del mundial, enseguida pedimos que se cambien las reglas de juego para no jugar al comienzo con equipos mas fuertes. Lo que EEUU debe hacer es contratar a un tecnico argentino o brasilero. Debemos bajarnos del caballo y aprender de los que saben y ganan...


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## grasshopper

Everness said:
			
		

> Vos vivis en Argentina. Me dijeron que salio un articulo en el Buenos Aires Herald que explicaba como se "arman" los mundiales para maximizar la ganancia economica. La FIFA es la mafia personificada. Se mueve demasiada guita para dejar las cosas al azar.
> 
> Lo que me da risa es que el tecnico de los EEUU y algunos distinguidos periodistas (e.g: John Powers) dicen que la distribucion de los grupos fue injusta y que a los EEUU les toco el verdadero grupo de la muerte. Es interesante que cuando se trata de materia economica los EEUU defienden a rajatabla el comercio libre, la no regulacion, etc etc. No importa que paises chicos compitan con paises poderosos. Las reglas capitalistas se aplican a todos y nadie puede chillar. Sin embargo, cuando se trata de futbol y apenas nuestra seleccion es eliminada del mundial, enseguida pedimos que se cambien las reglas de juego para no jugar al comienzo con equipos mas fuertes. Lo que EEUU debe hacer es contratar a un tecnico argentino o brasilero. Debemos bajarnos del caballo y aprender de los que saben y ganan...


 A los EEUU no les importa nada quién gana el final del Mundial de "soccer".

Moderator Note: off topic comment deleted.


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## Eugin

Everness said:
			
		

> La FIFA es la mafia personificada. Se mueve demasiada guita para dejar las cosas al azar.


 
Es así de claro y, a propósito de eso, antes de empezar los penales, al arquero alemán (Lehmann) le habían alcanzado un papelito con la lista de jugadores argentinos que iban a patear y a qué lado iban a hacerlo.

Así, cualquier equipo gana, hasta el peor equipo...

Aparte, Alemania es local y era obvio que iba a llegar a la final, SEA COMO SEA.....


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## ILT

Me surge la duda, ¿cómo sabes que le dieron ese papelito? Yo no ví nada...


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## Eugin

I love translating said:
			
		

> Me surge la duda, ¿cómo sabes que le dieron ese papelito? Yo no ví nada...


 
En todos los canales de la televisión argentina lo están pasando: el momento en que alguien del cuerpo técnico alemán le hace entrega de ese papelito a Lehmann y luego, cuando el arquero está parado en el arco esperando que se acomode el jugador argentino, se lo ve con un papelito que lo guarda, muy discretamente, dentro de la media, y lo vuelve a sacar, antes de que se coloque el próximo jugador argentino....

¡Qué lástima que no se transmitan esas imágenes en el resto del mundo también....! 

Pero era de esperarse, ILT.... Alemania iba a ganar, sea como sea.... una pena, porque teníamos el equipo para ganarles, pero no las circunstancias....


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## ILT

¿Entonces cuando Argentina ganó el mundial de 1978 siendo anfitrión también estaba todo arreglado? Pregunto porque aunque sigo el fútbol, no lo hago con mucho conocimiento de causa, me limito a ver los partidos y ya, sin tener conocimiento realmente de los tejes y manejes del torneo.


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## luis masci

I love translating said:
			
		

> ¿Entonces cuando Argentina ganó el mundial de 1978 siendo anfitrión también estaba todo arreglado?


Si Translating, si. Yo estoy totalmente seguro de que así fue.


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## Eugin

I love translating said:
			
		

> ¿Entonces cuando Argentina ganó el mundial de 1978 siendo anfitrión también estaba todo arreglado?


 
No soy yo quien te pueda responder esa pregunta porque para esa época yo sólo tenía 3 años. 

Lo que sí te puedo decir es que en Argentina, como en otros países de América del Sur, estábamos bajo la dictadura militar y se usó el Mundial para "tapar", por unos pocos meses, las atrocidades que se estaban cometiendo, pero bueno, eso ya sería para otro hilo....

Pero no me sorprendería que haya sido también el caso en el `78, lo cual no lo estoy justificando, pero puede ser el caso.

Espero que alguien con más experiencia futbolística te pueda responder esa pregunta.


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## Metztli

Eugin said:
			
		

> Espero que alguien con más experiencia futbolística te pueda responder esa pregunta.


 
Yo recuerdo que en mi casa se comentaba la final (Argentina '78) y nunca oí a nadie enojado o diciendo que había sido un robo o una injusticia... del mismo modo que nadie dijo nada de Alemania ganando la Copa en 1974.

Las manipulaciones se empezaron a notar en el Mundial de Corea/Japon... cuando les dio por programar los encuentros de manera q' Brasil y Alemania solo se pudieran encontrar en la final... exactamente como ahora y además dándoles a las dos selecciones unos equipos tan fáciles que suena hasta rídiculo decirlo... Alemania Vs. Costa Rica???? Brasil Vs. Japón??? Vergüenza les debería de dar tanto cínismo.


----------



## Metztli

I love translating said:
			
		

> Me surge la duda, ¿cómo sabes que le dieron ese papelito? Yo no ví nada...


 
Pues acá en Nueva York sí se está comentando... han repetido la escena y puede ser... no sé si es algo de lo que se les puede "acusar" o castigar por hacerlo... (realmente no creo que se pueda hacer nada) pero sí se rumora que el papel que recibió era eso.


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## Eugin

I love translating said:
			
		

> Me surge la duda, ¿cómo sabes que le dieron ese papelito? Yo no ví nada...


 
te paso un link a un diario argentino para que te lo leas vos misma/o


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## Krümelmonster

Lo del papelito de Lehmann tambien se ha visto en television en alemania... Recibio este papel de Köppke, el coach de los arqueros.
Hay gente que dice que en el papel han escrito adonde los argentinos prefieren a meter el bol, pero hay otros que piensan que no habia nada en el papel y que solo fue para insegurar a los argentinos, y eso me parece logico porque no fue, como Eugin dice, discretamente sino de forma muy llamativa, como si queria que todos lo veen.
No entiendo por que eso te parece injusto, es normal que los equipos analizan el juego de los otros...

Lo que a mi me llamo' la antencion es un articulo sobre Scolari (coach de los Portugueses y antes de Brazil) que no esconde que trabaja con metodos muy injustos como tirar un segundo bol al campo de futbol cuando el otro equipo esta cerca del gol, para que tienen que hacer pausa...


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## ILT

Sin tener todos los elementos a la mano para asegurar una cosa u otra, el comentario de Krümelmonster me parece muy lógico. Es común que los entrenadores conozcan el estilo de juego de cada jugador del equipo contrario, además de que es muy posible también que haya sido una forma de romper la concentración de equipo contrario. Ambas suposiciones tienen mucha lógica. ¿O a poco el equipo Argentino no hubiera puesto el grito en el cielo si los hubieran obligado a tirar sus penalties de cierta forma obligada para que se los pudieran detener? Aunque bueno, tampoco se puede descartar dada la cantidad de intereses económicos en juego, incluyendo los que posiblemente tengan jugadores que prefieren cobrar que ganar. Prometo leer e investigar más sobre estas copas del mundo antes del próximo evento, para poder hacer análisis más certeros


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## ILT

Después de leer el artículo que tan amablemente Eugin nos proporcionó concluyo que no fue trampa, simplemente una mejor organización y planeación del equipo alemán que estudió a sus rivales hasta el cansancio. ¡Definitivamente fue una excelente jugada!


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## ITA

Papelito o no papelito,mafias o no, lo cierto es que quedamos una vez mas afuera y la p**a ......!!!


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## Metztli

En casos como este... me da tanto gusto haberme equivocado!!! Que bueno que no todo está arreglado como yo decía. Con Brasil fuera de la Copa toda mi perorata anterior resulta obsoleta.


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## Eugin

I love translating said:
			
		

> ¡Definitivamente fue una excelente jugada!


 
Perdona que no esté de acuerdo contigo en eso...

¿De qué manera podían saber qué jugadores iban a ser los que ejecuten los penales si no había alguien que se los "pasara"? Perdoname pero para mí eso es _*COPIARSE*_ (o hacer trampa, chantejear, ponele el nombre que quieras), tal cual como en el colegio, cuando te copias con un papelito diminuto escondido debajo de la manga en un examen. 

Si estás bien preparado para dar un examen, no hace falta copiarte, porque se supone que has tenido suficiente tiempo para estudiar el caso.

No me voy a cansar de repetir: de esa forma, cualquiera gana..... y eso no tiene nada que ver con la habilidad para jugar al fútbol.

Lo único que me reconforta son tres cosas:
- Que Brasil perdió
- Que Messi será lo suficientemente grande y tendrá la experiencia necesaria como para jugar como titular en todos los partidos
- Que la próxima Copa será en Sudáfrica...


----------



## ILT

Eugin said:
			
		

> Perdona que no esté de acuerdo contigo en eso...
> 
> ¿De qué manera podían saber qué jugadores iban a ser los que ejecuten los penales si no había alguien que se los "pasara"?


Pues si eso sucedió, sólo puedo pensar en el entrenador del equipo Argentino. No sé quien más puede haber tenido acceso a ese tipo de información. Hasta donde yo sé es él quien decide quién va a tirar los tiros penales.



			
				Eugin said:
			
		

> Perdoname pero para mí eso es _*COPIARSE*_ (o hacer trampa, chantejear, ponele el nombre que quieras), tal cual como en el colegio, cuando te copias con un papelito diminuto escondido debajo de la manga en un examen.


Puede ser, sí, aunque en la escuela las reglas lo prohíben y en la copa no, ¿por qué no se les ocurrió a los demás? Sería cuestión de preguntar a los demás entrenadores si tienen por costumbre analizar al equipo contrario, como sucede con los boxeadores, que saben bien qué tipo de pelea brinda el adversario.


> Si estás bien preparado para dar un examen, no hace falta copiarte, porque se supone que has tenido suficiente tiempo para estudiar el caso.


Con esto estoy totalmente de acuerdo, aunque si las reglas me permiten contestar el examen a libro abierto, lo abriré sin importar cuánto haya estudiado.


----------



## luis masci

La eliminación de Brasil hace “caer” algunas de nuestras conjeturas. 
No obstante, la principal (el equipo local debe seguir hasta el final) se mantiene firme. 
Respecto a lo del papelito, por más que a Eugin le suene a “machete “y a trampa, no va contra los reglamentos del fútbol. No hay nada que lo prohíba y de hecho es totalmente normal que los jugadores (muchos de ellos se conocen por jugar en las mismas ligas europeas) le pasen datos a sus respectivos arqueros antes de la ejecución de penales.
Tan legal es, que hace un rato he visto por TV a uno de los alemanes jactarse del trabajo de "inteligencia" que habían hecho sobre los jugadores argentinos.


----------



## Everness

grasshopper said:
			
		

> A los EEUU no les importa nada quién gana el final del Mundial de "soccer".
> 
> (esperando a que me borren este mensaje también por "non-sense").



Como pais puede ser. Pero sera muy dificil que encuentres algo que a todos los estadounidenses nos importe. Tengo decenas de amigos a quienes no les importa un pito el baseball, el futbol americano, el basket, etc. (Y no se llaman mujeres, ok?) Yo me refiero a aquellos que vivimos en los EEUU y que nos apasiona el mas hermoso deporte del mundo. Y en mi pais, mas y mas personas estan enamorandose del balonpie. Cualquier gringo que haya visto a Zidane jugar hoy contra Brasil, hubiese descubierto la poesia del futbol. Ah, un amigo mio recien regreso de Puerto Rico. El es boriqua por antonomasia. Me dijo que se encontro con algo muy nuevo: muchas personas siguiendo el mundial en los malls, restaurantes, etc. Televisores encendidos por todas partes! Una amiga mia de Santo Domingo, me llama cada vez que algun equipo hace un gol o para comentar jugadas. Me cuenta que ve los partidos con sus parientes y que todos estan "enchufadisimos" (argentinismo?)


----------



## Krümelmonster

Bueno, realmente no estoy capaz de entender lo que molesta a Eugin... La informacion mas actual que tengo es que habia todos los argentinos con sus rincones o direcciones preferidos en el papel, y eso es algo que se puede encontrar antes de la partida, sin "copiar"...

Y si hay una cosa que realmente no es justa decir, es que Alemania no haga sus deberes. Tienen el concepto de conocer muy bueno al otro equipo, Klinsmann les hace ver a los jugadores peliculas sobre el pais y la cultura o historia de cada pais antes del partido, por ejemplo. Eso es buena preparacion y ademas trae el aspecto de "time to make friends" o que sea, el aspecto de conocer a otras naciones y acabar con prejuicios.

Bueno, y al final no entiendo por que piensa Eugin que de esa forma, cualquiera gana. Cada pais puede prepararse bien, y tonto el jugador que siempre elige el mismo rincon para plazar el futbol... no es sorprendiente si el arquero entonces sabe adonde saltar.

Quizas estoy entiendolo mal lo que dices, Eugin, pero no entiendo que es injusto en el equipo aleman.


----------



## Everness

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> Bueno, realmente no estoy capaz de entender lo que molesta a Eugin... La informacion mas actual que tengo es que habia todos los argentinos con sus rincones o direcciones preferidos en el papel, y eso es algo que se puede encontrar antes de la partida, sin "copiar"...
> 
> Y si hay una cosa que realmente no es justa decir, es que Alemania no haga sus deberes. Tienen el concepto de conocer muy bueno al otro equipo, Klinsmann les hace ver a los jugadores peliculas sobre el pais y la cultura o historia de cada pais antes del partido, por ejemplo. Eso es buena preparacion y ademas trae el aspecto de "time to make friends" o que sea, el aspecto de conocer a otras naciones y acabar con prejuicios.
> 
> Bueno, y al final no entiendo por que piensa Eugin que de esa forma, cualquiera gana. Cada pais puede prepararse bien, y tonto el jugador que siempre elige el mismo rincon para plazar el futbol... no es sorprendiente si el arquero entonces sabe adonde saltar.
> 
> Quizas estoy entiendolo mal lo que dices, Eugin, pero no entiendo que es injusto en el equipo aleman.



A nadie le gusta perder y cuando perdemos buscamos una explicacion. Empezamos primero por buscar culpa y responsabilidad afuera: el arbitro, el clima, el periodismo, etc. etc. Con el tiempo y a medida que los pensamientos y sentimientos dejan de estar fusionados, empezamos a pensar con claridad y comenzamos a hacernos cargo de la situacion. Argentina perdio porque no supo definir el partido. Punto. 

Ah, espero que Klinsmann haya ido a Blockbuster y alquilado muchisimos videos acerca de Italia. Por que? Porque los "tanos" ganan los partidos a las buenas o a las malas... 

Forza Italia!


----------



## Fernando

Eugin said:
			
		

> Es así de claro y, a propósito de eso, antes de empezar los penales, al arquero alemán (Lehmann) le habían alcanzado un papelito con la lista de jugadores argentinos que iban a patear y a qué lado iban a hacerlo.
> 
> Así, cualquier equipo gana, hasta el peor equipo...
> 
> Aparte, Alemania es local y era obvio que iba a llegar a la final, SEA COMO SEA.....



No, Eugin, te ciega la pasión.

Los alemanes habían estudiado cómo tiraban los penaltis los argentinos y cuando salió la lista de los que iban a tirar seleccionaron la información que necesitaban.

A mí me parece totalmente justo. Los alemanes se trabajaron la información. Los argentinos no. Perdieron.


----------



## luis masci

El equipo argentino se fue del mundial sin haber perdido ningún partido, su arquero titular se lesionó y no pudo estar a la hora de los penales, los jugadores alemanes fueron los únicos que no desviaron penales....
Al equipo lo que le faltó fue suerte. 
La culpa fue del técnico Pekerman por no convocar al delantero de Olimpo de Bahia Blanca Alejandro Del *Orte*.


----------



## Eloisa Giseburt

grasshopper said:
			
		

> A los EEUU no les importa nada quién gana el final del Mundial de "soccer".
> 
> Moderator Note: off topic comment deleted.


 

I agree. They do not even know it is taking place!!


----------



## Everness

Eloisa Giseburt said:
			
		

> I agree. They do not even know it is taking place!!



Let's avoid generalizations. It might be true that most Americans don't care about the World Cup but that doesn't mean that the event isn't followed by millions of people in the US. This is especially true on both coasts. Newspapers, however, are not covering this event as it deserves. The coverage is pitiful. After all, let's not forget that the World Cup is the world's largest single sporting event on the planet.

Soccer (football) is growing in popularity in the US even among your regular American (white folks who haven't recently immigrated from Ireland, Russia, Albania, etc.)  If you don't believe me, just attend a Revs game at Foxboro. You'll find more white than brown people rooting for New England! The debate about soccer becoming the fourth or fifth major sport in the States is inconsequential.


----------



## ILT

Me gustaría que quienes han dicho que la final está arreglada den su opinión ahora que Alemania ha quedado eliminada. ¿Qué sucedió? ¿Por qué? ¿A quién favorece esto?


----------



## Seana

'Nemo est casu bonus'.
Nadie está bien por casualidad.
.


----------



## mora

Everness said:
			
		

> Let's avoid generalizations. It might be true that most Americans don't care about the World Cup but that doesn't mean that the event isn't followed by millions of people in the US. This is especially true .


 
I agree, millions and millions of people in the United States and Canada are immigrants from soccer-mad countries, and thus follow the World Cup very passionately. THere are more fans in the US than the population of many of the countries in the World Cup. Thanks goodness for Univision, at least we can get decent play-by-play in Spanish, the US networks in English are truly pathetic. In my city, Vancouver, there are Italian, French and Portuguese flags everywhere, the games are playing in all bars and restaurants with TVs. There would be German flags too, but they are all staying home crying tonight  

Mora


----------



## Krümelmonster

Metztli said:
			
		

> Todos sabemos que la final está programada para que sea Alemania Vs. Brasil y que esta vez va a ganar Alemania...



Bueno, sera mentira si diria ahora que no estoy tristisima ahora que nuestro gran sueno se ha acabado... pero bueno, la FIFA dice "for the good of the game"... y quizas es bueno para el futbol que ahora la gente como Metztli cambia su opinion en cuanto a "todo se decide antes"...

Que pena que el sabado tengo mi "Abiball" (como el "prom" en america, despues de mi bachillerato...) y no puedo ver Alemania jugar... 

*"**Força Portugal!!!"
*(Si tu equipo pierde, cambia los lados cuanto antes! )


----------



## Everness

I love translating said:
			
		

> Me gustaría que quienes han dicho que la final está arreglada den su opinión ahora que Alemania ha quedado eliminada. ¿Qué sucedió? ¿Por qué? ¿A quién favorece esto?



This is what happened. The game had been fixed. Germany was supposed to win. The problem was that Grosso, who scored Italy's first goal, didn't get the memo. This was clearly reflected on poor Klinsmann's countenance: "These backstabbing Italians. I thought we had a deal."

Come on Sunday to the North End in Boston to celebrate Italy's 4th World cup. Great food, great company but very limited parking!

Forza Italia!!! Forza Azzurra!!!


----------



## Krümelmonster

Que no estes tan seguro, Everness... los portugueses tienen un sistema de correo muy malo y nadie de ellos ha recibido la "memo" diciendo que no tienen ninguna posibilidad de ganar... 
Ah, y el viejo senor Zidane ha acabado leer los memos desde hace mil anos...

El fin esta abierto todavia... Forca Portugal, Allez les vieux...


----------



## Yuribear

Bueno, y los de América Latina, ya que no tenemos a ningún representante... a quién le van? Por lo menos todos los latinos que conozco en San Diego le vamos a ITALIA!!!!!!!! pero acaso hay alguien de este continente que le vaya a Francia/Portugal (dependiendo quien gane en un rato?)


----------



## maxiogee

Can anyone here enlighten me, please.

Do the Football Associations of the countries playing in the World Cup get any financial return out of their teams endeavours?
And if so, how much do they get?


----------



## luis masci

I love translating said:
			
		

> Me gustaría que quienes han dicho que la final está arreglada den su opinión ahora que Alemania ha quedado eliminada. ¿Qué sucedió? ¿Por qué? ¿A quién favorece esto?


Obviamente ninguno de nosotros tiene la seguridad de que hayan habido manipulaciones y en caso de haberlas ninguno de nosotros sabe como es que se teje la madeja. Nosotros solo podemos hacer conjeturas. 
Lo cierto es que hay una fuerte sensación de que la copa es efectivamente manipulada, y hay muchos rumores de manejos turbios o por “debajo de la mesa”. 
Quizás sean tan solo eso: rumores; porque el fútbol de hoy es un negocio que mueve cantidades de dinero comparables a las que mueve el narcotráfico y el tráfico de armas.
Aquí hay una muestra de una de las teorías de conspiraciones, está en portugués pero creo que muchos de nosotros podemos entender sin problemas:
*Copa do Mundo de 1998 - Maracutaia. *
*Fato comprovado: o Brasil VENDEU a copa do mundo para*
*a Fifa. Os jogadores titulares brasileiros foram avisados, às 13:00 do *
*dia 12 de Julho (dia do jogo final), em uma reunião envolvendo o *
*Sr.Ricardo Teixeira (na única vez que o presidente da CBF compareceu a uma *
*preleção da seleção), o Técnico Mário Zagallo, o Sr.Américo Faria, *
*supervisor da seleção, e o Sr. Ronald Rhovald, representante da patrocinadora *
*Nike. Os jogadores reservas permaneceram em isolamento, em seus quartos *
*ou no lobby do hotel.*
Quienes quieran conocer más sobre el tema pueden verlo aquí.


----------



## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> Obviamente ninguno de nosotros tiene la seguridad de que hayan habido manipulaciones y en caso de haberlas ninguno de nosotros sabe como es que se teje la madeja. Nosotros solo podemos hacer conjeturas.
> Lo cierto es que hay una fuerte sensación de que la copa es efectivamente manipulada, y hay muchos rumores de manejos turbios o por “debajo de la mesa”.
> Quizás sean tan solo eso: rumores; porque el fútbol de hoy es un negocio que mueve cantidades de dinero comparables a las que mueve el narcotráfico y el tráfico de armas.
> Aquí hay una muestra de una de las teorías de conspiraciones, está en portugués pero creo que muchos de nosotros podemos entender sin problemas:
> *Copa do Mundo de 1998 - Maracutaia. *
> *Fato comprovado: o Brasil VENDEU a copa do mundo para*
> *a Fifa. Os jogadores titulares brasileiros foram avisados, às 13:00 do *
> *dia 12 de Julho (dia do jogo final), em uma reunião envolvendo o *
> *Sr.Ricardo Teixeira (na única vez que o presidente da CBF compareceu a uma *
> *preleção da seleção), o Técnico Mário Zagallo, o Sr.Américo Faria, *
> *supervisor da seleção, e o Sr. Ronald Rhovald, representante da patrocinadora *
> *Nike. Os jogadores reservas permaneceram em isolamento, em seus quartos *
> *ou no lobby do hotel.*
> Quienes quieran conocer más sobre el tema pueden verlo aquí.



Estoy en desacuerdo. La unica explicacion que encuentro es psicologica.  Brasil tiene un complejo cuando tiene que enfrentar a Francia. Ocurrio en la final del 98 y ocurrio otra vez un par de dias atras. No creo que Brasil haya ido a menos contra Francia en el partido de cuartos de finales de este torneo. Lo que ocurrio es que Zidane se cargo al equipo al hombro y Francia dio catedra. Vapuleo y bailo a un Brasil impotente y desconocido. Sin embargo no creo que Francia le pueda ganar a Portugal esta tarde.


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Can anyone here enlighten me, please.
> 
> Do the Football Associations of the countries playing in the World Cup get any financial return out of their teams endeavours?
> And if so, how much do they get?



Check out this document. It's 2005 FIFA's financial report. I think you'll find it very informative.

http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/publication/2005_FIFA_financial_report_ES.pdf


----------



## ILT

luis masci said:
			
		

> Obviamente ninguno de nosotros tiene la seguridad de que hayan habido manipulaciones y en caso de haberlas ninguno de nosotros sabe como es que se teje la madeja. Nosotros solo podemos hacer conjeturas.


Pregunté porque quienes afirmaron que la final está arreglada lo dijeron como si tuvieran las pruebas en la mano, no recuerdo que alguien haya dicho: "yo creo que...", "pienso que...", o algo por el estilo.


			
				luis masci said:
			
		

> Lo cierto es que hay una fuerte sensación de que la copa es efectivamente manipulada, y hay muchos rumores de manejos turbios o por “debajo de la mesa”.
> Quizás sean tan solo eso: rumores; porque el fútbol de hoy es un negocio que mueve cantidades de dinero comparables a las que mueve el narcotráfico y el tráfico de armas.


Con esto coincido, es fácil pensar que hay arreglos, aunque en lo personal no lo creo. Me cuesta trabajo pensar que un jugador que invierte tanto esfuerzo, sacrificio y tiempo en su entrenamiento acceda a perder o dejarse ganar un juego por así interesar a terceras personas.

Yo pienso que los beneficiados de este torneo son los jugadores, que al hacer un buen papel pueden venderse a un mejor precio a mejores equipos, los patrocinadores y las cadenas de televisión que transmiten los juegos. Habrá qué ver cuánto cuesta un comercial de 30 segundos en la final.


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> Check out this document. It's 2005 FIFA's financial report. I think you'll find it very informative.
> 
> http://www.fifa.com/documents/fifa/publication/2005_FIFA_financial_report_ES.pdf



Thank you.
Indeed informative - for Spanish speakers! 

I had to subsitute EN for ES at the end of the url.


----------



## Fernando

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Bueno, y los de América Latina, ya que no tenemos a ningún representante... a quién le van? Por lo menos todos los latinos que conozco en San Diego le vamos a ITALIA!!!!!!!! pero acaso hay alguien de este continente que le vaya a Francia/Portugal (dependiendo quien gane en un rato?)



As "European Latino" I will support Portugal (even when I know that I will have to bear them for scores saying: "We won the WC before than Spain" ).


----------



## maxiogee

Fernando said:
			
		

> As "European Latino" I will support Portugal (even when I know that I will have to bear them for scores saying: "We won the WC before than Spain" ).



 
What makes Portugal more Latino than Italy?


----------



## Fernando

Italy is Latin, not Latino. There are no Italian-past country in Latin America. That is the absurd confussion of the crazy term "Latino".

Said in Spanish makes sense:

Como "ibérico español" apoyaré a Portugal.


----------



## maxiogee

My apologies.


----------



## Bettie

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Bueno, y los de América Latina, ya que no tenemos a ningún representante... a quién le van? Por lo menos todos los latinos que conozco en San Diego le vamos a ITALIA!!!!!!!! pero acaso hay alguien de este continente que le vaya a Francia/Portugal (dependiendo quien gane en un rato?)


 
Yo le voy a Francia!!!! Desde Francia '98, recuerdo que para esa época todo el mundo en México le iba  a Francia, pero por razones fuera de mi control al equipo que seguí fue a Francia, debido a que sus partidos siempre los pude ver, más que cualquier otro equipo, y pues le he seguido fiel a pesar de su mal desempeño en el Mundial pasado y su dudoso desempeño en la primera ronda.

Tengo varios amigos venezolanos que le van a Portugal y uno que otro mexicano y panameño. Bueno, le iban...


----------



## luis masci

Everness said:
			
		

> Estoy en desacuerdo. La unica explicacion que encuentro es psicologica. Brasil tiene un complejo cuando tiene que enfrentar a Francia. Ocurrio en la final del 98 y ocurrio otra vez un par de dias atras. No creo que Brasil haya ido a menos contra Francia en el partido de cuartos de finales de este torneo. Lo que ocurrio es que Zidane se cargo al equipo al hombro y Francia dio catedra. Vapuleo y bailo a un Brasil impotente y desconocido. Sin embargo no creo que Francia le pueda ganar a Portugal esta tarde.


No se trata en estar de acuerdo o no, sino en que se sepa si alguna de estas versiones tiene bases ciertas. Tal ves algún día alguno de los involucrados se anime a hablar, como lo hicieron varios jugadores peruanos mucho después, sobre la Copa Argentina 78.
(aunque si tus presunciones son tan acertadas como tus pálpitos sobre el partido Francia & Portugal, dudo mucho que estés en lo cierto)


----------



## Benjy

I don't know if anyone has discussed it (I don't speak spanish), but has anyone not been appalled by the conduct of the players? 

What a farce. 

I hope that at least one reprecussion of this world cup is that less people will pay out to watch the games, less people will buy shirts and that somehow the disgusting amount of money which is shelled to these self obsessed cheating prima donnas will be lessened.

One can dream


----------



## Everness

Bottom line: the World Cup final will be played between two Latin countries and next Sunday Italy will chant: veni, vidi, vici. 

http://www.alsgenealogy.com/hispanic-vs-latin.htm


----------



## luis masci

I love translating said:
			
		

> Pregunté porque quienes afirmaron que la final está arreglada lo dijeron como si tuvieran las pruebas en la mano, no recuerdo que alguien haya dicho: "yo creo que...", "pienso que...", o algo por el estilo.


Lo que yo dije al respecto fue lo siguiente:


			
				luis masci said:
			
		

> Porque no nos olvidemos que este evento es deportivo, pero antes que nada es un gran negocio; y no sería nada bueno que el equipo anfitrión deje el torneo prematuramente.


Y creo que se cumplió, ya que el equipo local recién dejó el torneo 5 días antes del final. 


			
				I love translating said:
			
		

> Con esto coincido, es fácil pensar que hay arreglos, aunque en lo personal no lo creo. Me cuesta trabajo pensar que un jugador que invierte tanto esfuerzo, sacrificio y tiempo en su entrenamiento acceda a perder o dejarse ganar un juego por así interesar a terceras personas.
> Yo pienso que los beneficiados de este torneo son los jugadores, que al hacer un buen papel pueden venderse a un mejor precio a mejores equipos, los patrocinadores y las cadenas de televisión que transmiten los juegos. Habrá qué ver cuánto cuesta un comercial de 30 segundos en la final.


Es verdad, pero no te olvides que cada hombre tiene su precio y que las cifras que se manejan en el fútbol son increíbles.


----------



## luis masci

Benjy said:
			
		

> I don't know if anyone has discussed it (I don't speak spanish), but has anyone not been appalled by the conduct of the players?
> What a farce.


 
Yes Benji, that is justly what we are discussing right now. It’s a shame you cannot understand Spanish. 
Nevertheless later I’m going to send you (through PM) some translation in order you get the gist.


----------



## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> (aunque si tus presunciones son tan acertadas como tus pálpitos sobre el partido Francia & Portugal, dudo mucho que estés en lo cierto)



Mine was more wishful thinking that anything else. It would have been easier for Italy to beat Portugal than to beat France. However, Lippi's boys are going to finish the job. Let's hope that no one is arrested or asked to fly back to testify at the sports tribunal that is investigating match-fixing charges before Sunday's game. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060705.witaly5/BNStory/Sports/OtherSports/

Forza Italia!


----------



## billyboy

Well, now we all know who will b in the final, and unfortunately it is not my team, who despite having some great players, didnt manage to get out of second gear. 

  I didnt enjoy many matches althought the Germany/Italy last night was fantastic from both teams. Spain played well and I was surprised they went out.A couple of African teams played well also, as did one or 2 East European teams.

 France/Portugal tonight was not very good, with one team unfortunately more interested in cheating and diving. 
Something has to b done about the diving, and it wasnt confined to just one team either - we saw it from quite a few teams throughout the tournament.
 I am looking forward to the final between France and Italy which looks like it will be ''a cracker''.Lets hope for a fair game and may the best team win....good luck!!!


----------



## norma 126

Hablando de manipulaciones en el fútbol, flor de lió es el que hay en 
Italia en los que están involucrados los mas importantes clubes como la
Juventus, el Milán, la Fiorentina y la Lazio.El objetivo de los clubes implicados era el de obtener favores arbítrales. La verdadera finalidad era designar arbitrajes favorables para los clubes, que de cuando en cuando se han beneficiado de ellos, se había construido un sistema sofisticado, con la intervención favorable de los árbitros, sobre todo en los casos de duda. Creo que se puede esperar cualquier cosa, es difícil no pensar mal, cuando hay mucho dinero de por medio.


----------



## Yuribear

Fernando & Bettie........ Portugal is out of the picture, so... las porras van para.... Italia o Francia???


----------



## Fernando

Well, I do not have any preferences ...nor prediction. I probably will not watch the match. Without passion, sports means nothing to me.


----------



## LV4-26

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Portugal is out of the picture, so... las porras van para.... Italia o Francia???


Pity you didn't ask me : I've got an answer to that question.


----------



## Krümelmonster

Me too... or at least I know who I don't want to win


----------



## billyboy

I did not see the opening ceremony because I chose not to..too many are absolute rubbish whether they be for football,olympics or whatever. I hadnt thought of the national anthems as a negative thing before but yes, I can see the point now.   Here in Britain, life goes on as usual. the children go to school, the people go to work, (except those with time off obviously to go to Germany) and everything stops in the evening..most of the matches have been evening/weekend and are repeated about 3/4times. It is a pity England didnt play to their full potential,but thats life ..its gone now so we look forward to next time and hope for a better time without Sven!!  I note the point(with my little knowledge of Spanish I just hope to get the gist of the messages posted) that Italian football is once again in trouble, but I think the Italian team have done a great job in putting it out of their minds and focussing on the game... I like to think I dont mind who wins the final, but I have a sneaky feeling that 51% of me would be happy if Italy won!!   As for woman liking football...thousands of British women do...and a lot dont but will watch some games for the sake of husbands/sons.. now for next season and watch Liverpool again take the world by storm...Cmon Rafa and his amigos, show them how its done Stevie (when you are allowed to play to your strengths )Jamie,Robbie,Xavi,and our new boys froM Brazil and Chile....(perhaps next year all the kids in Liverpool will be speaking Spanish  hahahah)


----------



## Everness

billyboy said:
			
		

> I hadnt thought of the national anthems as a negative thing before but yes, I can see the point now.



Why would it be ok to sing your national anthem at a ceremony in your country but not ok to sing it at the World Cup? I'd rather have countries play power games --and feel good about it. e.g.: "We Italians are better than the French"-- in a stadium than in a battleground. I think it's ok for people to feel proud about their motherland or fatherland. The problem is blatant and insane nationalism. Here's an good piece on Germany's new patriotism. http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33653


----------



## Krümelmonster

YES that article is so true... what they said about the Bavarian elements, but also what they said on Germans being glad that for the first time in their lifes they are allowed to like their country... and maybe even feel a little bit proud...
Maybe it's hard to understand for foreigners, but for us it's really not easy to be patriotic, even if I am only 19 and grew up in a country as peaceful and democratic as any other...


----------



## Fernando

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> in a country as peaceful and democratic as any other...



I would rather say that Germany is more than the standard.

Please, take into consideration that 50,000 Germans singing "Deustchland über alles" scares many people  (unjustfied or not).


----------



## Bettie

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Fernando & Bettie........ Portugal is out of the picture, so... las porras van para.... Italia o Francia???


 
Pensé que había escrito antes que le iba a Francia, me gustaría que Zidane se retirara llevando la Copa a su país.


----------



## luis masci

norma 126 said:
			
		

> Hablando de manipulaciones en el fútbol, flor de lió es el que hay en
> Italia en los que están involucrados los mas importantes clubes como la
> Juventus, el Milán, la Fiorentina y la Lazio.


Faltaría que ganen la copa y a continuación vayan a parar tras las rejas. 
Pero lo que se ha podido ver en esta copa, es un fútbol mezquino y aburrido, con poquísimos goles, malísimo como espectáculo. 
Me pregunto para cuando aparecerá en la FIFA gente renovadora, que se anime a hacer cambios en beneficio de los espectadores.
¿ Para cuando los saques laterales hechos con los pies en lugar de con las manos? Sería más coherente en un juego que se llama football (balón pié).
Para cuando la eliminación del off side que para lo único que sirve es para que haya menos goles y para que los árbitros se equivoquen? (y para que las mujeres no lo entiendan)
Por qué no se premia al equipo que provocó más corners y se lo considera ganador en caso de empates en lugar de los fatídicos penales? Eso favorecería el fútbol ofensivo y por lo tanto iría en pro del espectáculo.
Si con partidos tan aburridos logran mantener al mundo en vilo, me imagino que sería si mejorasen un poquito.


----------



## maxiogee

Fernando said:
			
		

> I would rather say that Germany is more than the standard.
> 
> Please, take into consideration that 50,000 Germans singing "Deustchland über alles" scares many people  (unjustfied or not).



Do they sing those words? They are no longer part of the German national Anthem, which consists of the third verse of *Das Lied der Deutschen* (_Song of the Germans_)

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit.................Unity and law and freedom
für das deutsche Vaterland!......................For the German Fatherland
Danach lasst uns alle streben....................Let us all strive for that
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!....................In brotherhood with heart and hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit.................Unity and law and freedom
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand;.....................Are the foundation for happiness
Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,..................Bloom in the glow of happiness
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland.......................Bloom, German Fatherland.

I suppose some people just hear the music and lose rationality.


----------



## Everness

Fernando said:
			
		

> Please, take into consideration that 50,000 Germans singing "Deustchland über alles" scares many people  (unjustfied or not).



I think the Germans have come to terms with their shadowy past (e.g.: Hitler, nazism, Holocaust, etc.) They have become a strong democratic nation. Yes, there are skinheads and there are politicians and activists in their midst who dearly miss the good old days. However, I believe that it's us who don't completely trust that Germans have come to terms with their past. It's us who believe that Germany can produce a new Hitler anytime. Therefore the only solution is to take back our own projections on the German people and let them sing their anthem. (But thank God they didn't win the Cup, right?)


----------



## Seana

Recently I read that football is the one of the last 'tribal rituals'. 

Poland has appeared as the worst team on the World Cup. But several dozen thousands of Poles still dressed up on white-red and moved to Germany. The mass mission of Poles to the world championships was manifesting that we were already a nation proud and conscious of the national identity. Poles because of the political and economical crash barrier for years were only "poor relatives" which could arrive in Germany only to hard work. Now they went to Germany to waste on  time .. and not only work and slog away. They drank the beer and they sang the songs in German bars. That's all patriotism. 
If our team didn't disappoint, the ego of the Polish supporter on performances in Germany would fly up confidently high. 

But not only the Polish national ego exercised ascents during the World Cup. 
I read about British minister of the culture Tessa Jowell who displayed two saint George's English flags from windows of her limousine in taken of supporting the team Davida Beckhama, what was seen in Great Britain with consternation. Scotsmen still managed to be indignant. Supposed before the this World Cup Scottish fans made a decision about support on championships for the team Trynidad and Tobago. When on 15 June England defeated 2:0 this small country, Scotsmen gave such a radical release to their Anglophobia the government Committee of the Racial Equality felt obliged to spend the appeal for calming moods. The Scottish press mockingly asked whether London would call room units on UN for calming the situation. 
And next one - when Spain lost 27 June with 3:1 France, Catalans had the reason for celebrating then.
So isn't the football/soocer the last 'tribal rituals'. Can you see it alike.


----------



## norma 126

luis masci said:
			
		

> Para cuando la eliminación del off side que para lo único que sirve es para que haya menos goles y para que los árbitros se equivoquen? (y para que las mujeres no lo entiendan)


 
Es verdad, soy mujer y no entiendo el offside, muchas veces me lo han explicado y me resulta dificil de entender..


----------



## luis masci

Everness said:
			
		

> Why would it be ok to sing your national anthem at a ceremony in your country but not ok to sing it at the World Cup?


I think to sing anthems before each game is in some way involucrate a simple sport match into a national matter. Besides it’s involving also those who don’t like football.
No mention how annoying it’d be when a bunch of fans decide boo some anthem. 
On another hand when the cameras focused Argentinean players, neither of them looked singing the national anthem (I don’t know if someone from here has noticed it).
The explanation is not they are antipatriotic nor they unknown their anthem; the reason is Argentinean anthem has all first part only music and when the singing part was just starting on, it always was taken off.  
-----------------------
Remember I'm only a Spanish speaker any corrections will be welcome


----------



## Krümelmonster

@ Fernando: Maxiogee is right! We never sing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles", this was abolished after Hitler. We sing about law and freedom, as Maxiogee wrote...
On the other hand, the french sing really cruel things (there's a thread about national anthems) and English sing during the games "rule Britannia".

In my opinion Germany is the country where the possibility of a second Hitler to appear is the lowest. We grow up feeling guilty, we go to france to school exchanges and they throw stones on us calling us Nazis, we go to Spain and they shout "Heil Hitler", and we have the feeling they have the right to do that, even if we (my generation and that of my parents) never were involved in any war, in any form of racism, in anything. 
In nearly every country Germans go they can find people doing the Hitler-salute to make fun of us, while in Germany you get punished for doing this! 

Germany is more democratic than many other countries of our western civilization, and there's plenty of programmes to pay our guilt... every year at school history lessons, german lessons, religion lessons,... come up with the Nazis, always telling us we're the bad ones. We learned to feel guilty, we learned that we don't have the right to participate in "whose country is better"-games people sometimes like to play for the fun of it... we just never had anything to be proud of, like all those other patriotic nations around us (England, Spain, France, Portugal, Italy...)

But as I see this was not enough to make people accept we're not the same as Germans in 1940, not even educated ones in this forum... and if they come from a nation where the years of democracy since the last dictatorship are less than those of the dictatorship itself, it somehow hurts me they can express this opinion with such an implicitness...

Sorry, maybe I just drifted off-topic... Forgive me the passion on this issue, I'll hold it to myself now.


----------



## Sallyb36

norma 126 said:
			
		

> Es verdad, soy mujer y no entiendo el offside, muchas veces me lo han explicado y me resulta dificil de entender..



Norma es muy fácil, lo explico en Inglés.  When the attacking ball is played if the receiving attacker is between the last defender and the goalie at the time of the pass then he is offside, he needs to have another defender between him and the goalie when the ball is passed to him in order to be onside.


----------



## Krümelmonster

Right. And then you need to know about passive offsides, and you got it all. It's really simple (has to be, for it must be some male who invented it ).

But it's right, I think they should abolish the offside, for the game never gets fluent when there's always an offside, and the referees are always the fools because their decisions are critizised, no matter whether correct or not... and most offsides are really hard to judge in the running game. If they want to stick to it, then they have to invent better methods for recognizing them.


----------



## Sallyb36

Is that when the offside is given for an attacker who has no contact with the ball?
I like offside, it can be very handy.


----------



## LV4-26

Patriotism and nationalism have been mentionned as having supposedly a different meaning. There's a third notion implied in this debate, I think, but I'll have to use a French word for it : it's the word _chauvinisme_ which, mind you, is only slightly connected with the English _chauvinism_. To be "_chauvin"_ in French is only ever used in international sporting games. It means to blatantly support an individual contestant or a team because they're from your own country. It's a feeling close to patriotism except that, in that case, you don't have anything to do to show your _chauvinisme_, no duty to perform in order to serve your motherland,  apart from yelling in joy when your team scores a goal and, sometimes, booing the adverse team.

_Chauvinisme_ is just a way of vicariously satisfying one's need to be loved, one's desire for approval. My team is glorified so I'm glorified "by proxy".

I object to all three really (nationalism, patriotism and _chauvinisme_). I wonder whether patriotism is merely a euphemism for nationalism.

_Chauvinisme_ is far less "noble" than patriotism. On the other hand,  it is less dangerous because it tends to disappear once the competition is over. (I understand that saying patriotism is dangerous is highly debatable and bound to raise lots of objections....the kind of statement I'd rather whisper than shout).

I don't consider myself as a patriot (let alone a nationalist). But to my great shame, I have to admit I find it hard to refrain from being _chauvin_ sometimes - and especially during a World Cup. . (But I never boo the adverse team).


----------



## Krümelmonster

Well, for a player that isn't involved in the attack, I don't know how to say this in English. But I'm not even sure if the passive offside rule is still valid for the world cup.
I don't like offsides, and I don't like teams who practice the offside-trap! For me it has nothing to do with football.


----------



## Sallyb36

I think of it as an extra dimension!


----------



## Fernando

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> @ Fernando: Maxiogee is right! We never sing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles", this was abolished after Hitler. We sing about law and freedom, as Maxiogee wrote...



I notice it.  You sing one part of Das Lied des Deutschen, and you have removed the ugly parts ("Deutschland über alles" strophe included), but the music is the same. As you have said other nations have not felt the need of removing the ugly part of their anthems.

I must say that Spanish anthem has no threat for no one (1). 

I do not want to be misunderstood. I have no doubt about the democratic commitment of Germans, but unluckily you have to bear the Hitler stygma for ever. Well, we have the Inquisition, US has the Vietnam War, British have the pirates and so on. Nationalism is stupid. You should not care very much when stupid supporters say "Heil Hitler".

(1) We have no lyrics.


----------



## LV4-26

France-Spain
Off-sides by Thierry Henry : 31' - 35' - 39' - 41' (passive) - 47' - 69' - 83' (passive) - 87'

If the offside rule were to disappear, I know some one who would be pleased. 
Honestly, I think that rule is right somehow. It should just be amended. But isn't it complicated enough as it is?


----------



## Sallyb36

Fernando said:
			
		

> I notice it.  You sing one part of Das Lied des Deutschen, and you have removed the ugly parts ("Deutschland über alles" strophe included), but the music is the same. As you have said other nations have not felt the need of removing the ugly part of their anthems.
> 
> *I must say that Spanish anthem has no threat for anyone *(1).
> 
> I do not want to be misunderstood. I have no doubt about the democratic commitment of Germans, but unluckily you have to bear the Hitler stygma for ever. Well, we have the Inquisition, US has the Vietnam War, British have the pirates and so on. Nationalism is stupid. You should not care very much when stupid supporters say "Heil Hitler".
> 
> (1) We have no lyrics.



But it needs some new word Fernando, I know that you stopped singing the wrods after He Who Shall Not Be Named died, but don't you think it's about time someone wrote some good new ones?


----------



## Sallyb36

LV4-26...a great reason not to abolish the off-side rule!


----------



## Fernando

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> If the offside rule were to disappear, I know some one who would be pleased.



I guess you referred to Fernando Torres or Joaquín.

I also dislike the offside rule.


----------



## Fernando

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> But it needs some new word Fernando, I know that you stopped singing the wrods after He Who Shall Not Be Named died, but don't you think it's about time someone wrote some good new ones?



During Franco time there was an UNofficial anthem, composed by Pemán and Falla (which had no political sign (to me)) but it never got much support.

Many Spanish regions have decided to invent or recover hymns after they got autonomy. Some of them with "ugly" parts.

As a Spaniard, I do not need more national symbols. We have a nice flag and a fair anthem. When we are drunk we sing "Asturias, patria querida" ("Asturias, my dear fatherland").


----------



## Krümelmonster

Isn't Asturias just one province of spain?
Or do you use "Asturias" for whole Spain? Has it to do with your royals being "principe de Asturias?"
I wondered about that one when I was in Leon and they were drunk they all sang "porque Asturias es mi patria y sincera su bandera..." (I think it's a Melendi song).

So it doesn't refer to the small part of Asturias in northern Spain, but the whole country?


----------



## Fernando

No, Asturias is just a region of Spain. As a matter of fact it was the only region free of Islamic rule. As Asturians like to say: "Asturias is Spain, the rest is just conquered land".

But for some reason (probably because is a nice region for everyone) is a typical drunk song throughout Spain. It was very funny when it became the region anthem.


----------



## Krümelmonster

You talk of "Asturias, patria querida" o "Porque Asturias es mi padria"? 
That's really funny... in Germany there's a song called "Viva Colonia", dealing with the city of "Köln", and it's sung everywhere, too. But the fact that it is not just one song about Asturias but more, and they are sung by non-asturians, shows that it has to be a great region


----------



## Outsider

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> In my opinion Germany is the country where the possibility of a second Hitler to appear is the lowest. We grow up feeling guilty, we go to france to school exchanges and they throw stones on us calling us Nazis, we go to Spain and they shout "Heil Hitler", and we have the feeling they have the right to do that, even if we (my generation and that of my parents) never were involved in any war, in any form of racism, in anything.
> In nearly every country Germans go they can find people doing the Hitler-salute to make fun of us, while in Germany you get punished for doing this!


Maybe they're just jealous. Everyone in Western Europe admires the efficiency and progressiveness of modern Germany. 

P.S. A while ago, I found some statistics on the opposition to the Iraq war in Europe. The country where the highest percentage of people were opposed to the war was Germany. I do not wish to make a political statement here, but I think it does show that today's Germans can hardly be described as militaristic.


----------



## Everness

Krümelmonster said:
			
		

> @ Fernando: Maxiogee is right! We never sing "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles", this was abolished after Hitler. We sing about law and freedom, as Maxiogee wrote...
> On the other hand, the french sing really cruel things (there's a thread about national anthems) and English sing during the games "rule Britannia".
> 
> In my opinion Germany is the country where the possibility of a second Hitler to appear is the lowest. We grow up feeling guilty, we go to france to school exchanges and they throw stones on us calling us Nazis, we go to Spain and they shout "Heil Hitler", and we have the feeling they have the right to do that, even if we (my generation and that of my parents) never were involved in any war, in any form of racism, in anything.
> In nearly every country Germans go they can find people doing the Hitler-salute to make fun of us, while in Germany you get punished for doing this!
> 
> Germany is more democratic than many other countries of our western civilization, and there's plenty of programmes to pay our guilt... every year at school history lessons, german lessons, religion lessons,... come up with the Nazis, always telling us we're the bad ones. We learned to feel guilty, we learned that we don't have the right to participate in "whose country is better"-games people sometimes like to play for the fun of it... we just never had anything to be proud of, like all those other patriotic nations around us (England, Spain, France, Portugal, Italy...)
> 
> But as I see this was not enough to make people accept we're not the same as Germans in 1940, not even educated ones in this forum... and if they come from a nation where the years of democracy since the last dictatorship are less than those of the dictatorship itself, it somehow hurts me they can express this opinion with such an implicitness...
> 
> Sorry, maybe I just drifted off-topic... Forgive me the passion on this issue, I'll hold it to myself now.



You're not drifting off-topic at all. Football and totalitarian ideologies in Europe have gone hand in hand. If you have a chance watch the following documentary produced by the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/fascism-and-football.shtml

Again, my thesis is that people from other countries have not come to terms with the fact that Germany has come to terms with their shadowy past. These dynamics are just keeping guilt and fears alive and that's not good. Deep down some fear that if Germany had won the Cup they would have invaded Poland the following day. Deal with your own demons and leave Germans alone... (Pero menos mal que no ganaron, cierto?)


----------



## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> Maybe they're just jealous. Everyone in Western Europe admires the efficiency and progressiveness of modern Germany.



True. Now they just have to focus on improving their football skills and they will excel at most everything...

Forza Italia! Forza Azzurra!


----------



## Everness

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> LV4-26...a great reason not to abolish the off-side rule!



I agree. Many of my fellow Americans -even those who don't care about football- insist that FIFA should do away with the off-side rule in order to increase scoring. Unfortunately, they focus too much on scoring and don't appreciate what happens in between.


----------



## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> I agree. Many of my fellow Americans -even those who don't care about football- insist that FIFA should do away with the off-side rule in order to increase scoring. Unfortunately, they focus too much on scoring and don't appreciate what happens in between.


That's a fair objection. After all, without an off-side rule, wouldn't the goalkeepers be tempted to keep kicking the ball directly to the opposite penalty area in the hope to find their attacker's head or foot?  How many players would be left to play, then?


----------



## Sallyb36

I think that the offside rule gives it a bit of depth, makes it a bit like chess.


----------



## Everness

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> That's a fair objection. After all, without an off-side rule, wouldn't the goalkeepers be tempted to keep kicking the ball directly to the opposite penalty area in the hope to find their attacker's head or foot?  How many players would be left to play, then?



My only concern with the off-side rule is when teams misuse it and abuse it. Off-side traps are ok but should be used with restrain. Otherwise, games become too speculative. I was sadly impressed with the naivete of many players in this world cup that were called off-side once and again. By far, the Italians have the best defense and the best defender of this cup: Cannavaro.


----------



## Everness

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> I think that the offside rule gives it a bit of depth, makes it a bit like chess.



And how many Americans play chess? I rest my case...


----------



## luis masci

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> I think that the offside rule gives it a bit of depth, makes it a bit like chess.


Yeah I’m totally in agreement with you in this point.
Nowadays to watch a football game is for the audience as boring as to watch a chess game.


----------



## Everness

Football is like making love: an art. First, there's something (a ball) that goes into something else (a net). Do I need to elaborate on this first similarity? Interestingly enough, many sports follow this same pattern: basketball, golf, hockey, etc. (American football doesn't -that's why they have the cheerleaders.) Second, the building up to scoring is as important as scoring itself. It's wonderful when fans in the stands scream and yell when their team scores. It's also wonderful when a couple groans with pleasure when they reach an orgasm. See the similarity? But foreplay is as important as reaching an orgasm. Women are more aware about this than men. That's why they "get" football! Most men just think about "scoring" and view foreplay as a waste of time. Bottom line: if you aren't into foreplay, forget football. It's not your cup of tea.


----------



## Bettie

Henry was off-side so many times!!!! I hope that won't happen sunday!!!


----------



## luis masci

Everness said:
			
		

> Football is like making love: an art. First, there's something (a ball) that goes into something else (a net). Do I need to elaborate on this first similarity? Interestingly enough, many sports follow this same pattern: basketball, golf, hockey, etc. (American football doesn't -that's why they have the cheerleaders.) Second, the building up to scoring is as important as scoring itself. It's wonderful when fans in the stands scream and yell when their team scores. It's also wonderful when a couple groans with pleasure when they reach an orgasm. See the similarity? But foreplay is as important as reaching an orgasm. Women are more aware about this than men. That's why they "get" football! Most men just think about "scoring" and view foreplay as a waste of time. Bottom line: if you aren't into foreplay, forget football. It's not your cup of tea.


Everness
Following your weird comparison I’d say the finalist teams practice an interminable foreplay (let me say some times quite repetitive and boring) and they look many times as impotent.
I only hope they won’t draw without scoring because in this case that will be resolved through penalties. 
By the way how do you call this instance? As a multi orgasm?


----------



## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> Everness
> Following your weird comparison I’d say the finalist teams practice an interminable foreplay (let me say some times quite repetitive and boring) and they look many times as impotent.
> I only hope they won’t draw without scoring because in this case that will be resolved through penalties.
> By the way how do you call this instance? As a multi orgasm?



Don Luis: We must distinguish between metaphor and metonym. I didn't say footbal is making love but football is *like *making love. Therefore we should avoid stretching comparisons. But if you push me, I would call PKs "quickies." They should be called during a match but they should not be used to pick a winner following a draw. Germany sent Argentina packing on PKs despite the fact that Argentina had played the best football of the tournament and had scored the best goal of the world cup, the one Cambiasso scored against Serbia/Montenegro. Argentina held possession with a string of *two dozen passes* and at the finish, Saviola found Cambiasso, who passed to Hernan Crespo, who back-heeled the ball for Cambiasso’s left-footed finish. However, I must say that I find PKs very "exciting!" I like the fact that you bring new ideas to the table of a definite sexual connotation. E.g.: impotence. It's true that some games in this world cup have been boring. But let's not blame the sport but the players. There's no Viagra or excuses for footballers. There are times that they can't deliver. Period. (Doesn't it happen to all of us?) By the way, I loved the Netherlands-Portugal match. There was definitely rough sex involved! However, my dear friend, my point was a different one. Football isn't just about scoring 10 or 12 goals. Quantity is important but quality (strategies, tactics, etc.) is even more important.


----------



## Krümelmonster

Lol, I wonder whether the SM-Portuguese and the Fairplay (Safer Sex?)-Germans have a nice time together this night...


----------



## Everness

This is one of the reasons why I love Boston. Which other major newspaper in the States would publish this type of article?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/07/09/a_wide_world_of_sports?mode=PF

Todo el mundo al North End, el barrio italianisimo, a festejar con los tanos! 

Disclaimer: If you choose to wear a jersey that faintly resembles the French jersey, here are my recommendations. a) Avoid running into my friend Marco Caputo from Naples. He is easily recognizable. He will paint a large "I" on the back of his head and dye his beard green, white, and red. The Globe ran an article on him the other day: "But friends say Marco Caputo is an animal, a stick of dynamite waiting to explode, and the most emotional fan on the block." b) If plan a) doesn't work, just make sure that you're not behind with your life insurance payments. 

Forza Italia! Forza Azzurra!


----------



## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: If you choose to wear a jersey that faintly resembles the French jersey, here are my recommendations. a) Avoid running into my friend Marco Caputo from Naples. He is easily recognizable. He will paint a large "I" on the back of his head and dye his beard green, white, and red. The Globe ran an article on him the other day: "But friends say Marco Caputo is an animal, a stick of dynamite waiting to explode, and the most emotional fan on the block." b) If plan a) doesn't work, just make sure that you're not behind with your life insurance payments.
> 
> Forza Italia! Forza Azzurra!


Goodness me! It's getting pretty heavy for me out here. Where's the nearest shelter?
Allez les bleus   Forza Italia!


----------



## Seana

So, what do you think about the end of World Cup 2006?
Especially about dramatic encounter in which Zinedine Zidane butts Materazzi in the chest and was sent off in his final match.
That's all is a huge mental strain isn'it?


----------



## Yuribear

Too bad for him!!! it takes one second of bad temper to ruin your life.... and get a red card.  France did an excellent job , but I actually wanted the SQUADRA AZZURRA to win!!! EVVIVA ITALIA!!!!


----------



## GenJen54

*Mod Note:*  If you wish to CONGRATULATE Italy or otherwise celebrate the World Cup victory, please do so HERE. Please keep the topic of THIS thread to the "repurcussions of the World Cup."

Note:  Yuribear and my posts crossed, so she she is exampt.


----------



## LV4-26

I'll show you I can keep the topic. 
A repercussion of the World Cup? I'm devastated.


----------



## luis masci

En el fútbol como en la vida, la suerte juega también su rol. 
Los penales ejecutados por Zidane y por Trezeguet fueron similares; apenas unos pocos centímetros hacen la diferencia entre ser héroe o villano.
El primero fue héroe hasta el fatídico momento del cabezazo en que se convirtió de ‘golpe’ (y nunca tan adecuada esta expresión) en villano. Quizás si hubiese tenido 5 segundos para reflexionar la historia podría haber sido completamente distinta. 
En fin… habrá que creer en el destino.


----------



## LV4-26

1. 
The positive point in this affair is that it made it clear that this "hero", this "living legend" (at least to many of his French supporters) isn't a god. He has human reactions. 
The reactions of the French people and media since yesterday night, although never worded this way, clearly show that we "hate the sin, not the sinner". (I agree with that feeling in general - not only in Zizou's case, that is -). Plus, they feel it easier to empathize with someone who's obviously "faillible".

2.
Shifting back to the core of the topic. I think football and the WC in particular, play a role that religion and politics no longer play : it encourages a collective feeling as opposed to the individualism that is gaining more ground every day. By politics I mean the fact for individual citizens of supporting a political cause, political action (I thought of using the word "militancy" but I realized it contains an aggressive connotation in English while it's neutral in French). 30-40 years ago, more people considered their neighbour as somebody having similar reactions to similar events and sharing the same hopes and beliefs. Nowadays, my* neighbour is generally some one I think is different from me and whom I distrust. When our team wins (or looses ), I'm aware we feel the same emotion, we sympahize with each other, we...yes that's the word...love each other. We're happy to go in the streets and shout with joy together.

Whether this feeling is fake (I don't think it is, at least at the very moment it is experienced), whether it's bound to last (but I'm not sure it lasts much either), is a different matter.

Whether it is globally positive is also a different matter. It is positive as long as it doesn't mean being aggressive to the other groups (nations).

And that is the rub : to what extent the feeling of belonging to a group doesn't automatically imply the feeling of rejecting those who do not belong to that group? Which takes us back to the issues of patriotism and nationalism. 
_________
* of course, that is a general "my". I mean "our neighbour" our "one's neighbour".


----------



## norma 126

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> 1.
> * of course, that is a general "my". I mean "our neighbour" our "one's neighbour".


Don't worry it was completely clear. 
I was so sorry for Zizou and surelly my countryman Elizondo also felt so sorry when he shown the red card to him. Whatever was said to Zidane he should have known not to react like that.
It brought a sad end to his glittering career and his misery was compounded when France went to lose on penalties. 
Now, I've just heard despite his red card he has been named as the player of the tournament. 
That is justice and I'm glad for him.


----------



## Everness

norma 126 said:
			
		

> Don't worry it was completely clear.
> I was so sorry for Zizou and surelly my countryman Elizondo also felt so sorry when he shown the red card to him. Whatever was said to Zidane he should have known not to react like that.
> It brought a sad end to his glittering career and his misery was compounded when France went to lose on penalties.
> Now, I've just heard despite his red card he has been named as the player of the tournament.
> That is justice and I'm glad for him.



Don't feel sorry for Zidane. Feel sorry for FIFA who awarded the Golden Ball to this player. Zidane is a serial head butter. He was red-carded against Saudi Arabia in the '98 World Cup and suspended for head-butting an opponent in the 2000 Champions League. We all know that Matterazzi is no saint. But regardless of what the Italian defender could have told him, Zidane's behavior is unacceptable and should be punished and not rewarded with the tournament's Most Valuable Player award. Millions of kids who watched the game yesterday and who are now finding out about this award are getting the wrong message. Shame on FIFA!


----------



## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> Shame on FIFA!


 Actually, the ranking had been made before the incident (at half time yesterday, I think). And the player
of the tournament is elected by journalists not by the Fifa.


> The adidas Golden Ball award is presented to the outstanding player at each FIFA World Cup™ finals, with a shortlist drawn up by the FIFA technical committee and the winner voted for by *representatives of the media*


 Here
.


----------



## Everness

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> The player of the tournament is really elected by journalists.



Regardless of who actually awards the Golden Ball, I hope Zidane has some dignity left and returns it immediately. He is definitely a very gifted player. However, he will be especially remembered for the head-butting abilities he displayed in yesterday's match. Fabio Cannavaro should get the Golden Ball.


----------



## Seana

If somebody is curious my opinon about it I say shortly: I see it as typical way that 100% offended male just reacts. I respect him for it that at last he was directed by the reaction of typical male rather than the manipulated little monkey in the circus. So petty-minded opinions about  him weren't more important than his full of the testosterone male pride. 
In my opinion the worst thing for the man in the moment when he is one-on-one with himself there is an awareness of the fact that he is sold off to the commerce. 
Perhaps it is a bit controversial point of view but I think this way because I am real naturist.


----------



## Everness

Seana said:
			
		

> I respect him for it that at last he was directed by the reaction of typical male rather than the manipulated little monkey in the circus.



Seana, maybe Materazzi said something along these lines and Mr. Macho got offended. According to the following story (in Spanish), Materazzi called him "filthy terrorist." http://www.as.com/articulo/futbol/S...lsion/Zidane/dasftb/20060710dasdasftb_24/Tes/

However, Materazzi denies having calling Zidane a "filthy terrorist" or even a "Islamic terrorist." It's interesting how he defends himself: "It's not true. I haven't called him terrorist. I'm ignorant and I don't even know what terrorist or Islamic mean."
http://www.elperiodico.com/default....ma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=321037&idseccio_PK=136&h=

I just wish there was a trophy for assh*les. We would already have 3 top contenders: Zidane, Materazzi and yours truly.


----------



## Eugin

In Argentina, newspapers (sorry it´s in Spanish....) are saying that FIFA is admitting that it made some mistakes at announcing Zidane as best player of the tournament, but well... cé la vie....

And as regards what Materazzi could have told Zidane, the newspapers here are saying that he said: "_Fucking Argerian_" or in Spanish "_Argelino de mierda_". I only knew today that ZIdane´s parents come from Argelia... so this is also a racist comment, but then again, we are not really sure of what was that Materazzi actually said...

(Besides, if Materazzi lives in this planet, I cannot really believe that he doesn`t know what Islam or terrorism is... and, if he really doesn`t know about that eek: ), well... then I prefer to be poor but knowledgeable rather than so rich but with no notions of what is going on around a ball..... )


----------



## Seana

But look that wonderful idea the main motto of this year World Cup 
'*'SAY NO TO RACISM'.
* This message has sent out before final games and it seemed that it would thrive. Unfortunately in the end it hasn't defeated. Racist reflex  appeared where nobody  expected it and more over in such a bad style.

I don't approve his behaviour  but I am admiring that he was able to oppose it in spite of such a high price and consequences.
How much these words might touch him...


----------



## Everness

Seana said:
			
		

> But look that wonderful idea the main motto of this year World Cup
> '*'SAY NO TO RACISM'.
> * This message has sent out before final games and it seemed that it would thrive. Unfortunately in the end it hasn't defeated. Racist reflex  appeared where nobody  expected it and more over in such a bad style.
> 
> I don't approve his behaviour  but I am admiring that he was able to oppose it in spite of such a high price and consequences.
> How much these words might touch him...



Well, let's not jump to conclusions. After all, we don't know what Marco actually told Zizou. Maybe he just put in doubt his mom's moral sexual integrity.


----------



## Otter

Everness said:
			
		

> Well, let's not jump to conclusions. After all, we don't know what Marco actually told Zizou. Maybe he just put in doubt his mom's moral sexual integrity.


 
*Thank you, Everness.*

*Always amazes me how quickly rumor often becomes truth. Like studying history. Who wrote those books?*

*As to: **"It's not true. I haven't called him terrorist. I'm ignorant and I don't even know what terrorist or Islamic mean.", my first take on it was that it's a joke.*


----------



## Everness

Otter said:
			
		

> *Thank you, Everness.*
> 
> *Always amazes me how quickly rumor often becomes truth. Like studying history. Who wrote those books?*
> 
> *As to: **"It's not true. I haven't called him terrorist. I'm ignorant and I don't even know what terrorist or Islamic mean.", my first take on it was that it's a joke.*



I think you'll enjoy this story. 

1. "SOS Racism, the Paris-based anti-racism group, called for an inquiry." My hunch is that tomorrow France will call an emergency session of the UN Security Council.

2. "A Brazilian television channel said Zidane's moment of madness might have been provoked by Materazzi calling his sister a prostitute. A program on the channel employed lip-reading experts, who said footage of the incident showed the Italian twice insulted Zidane's sister."  So much for my theory about a reference to Zizou's mother. 

3. "The program claimed Materazzi made the same comment twice before then using a "coarse word" at the French player." Now I'm confused. What ticked off Zizou? The comment about his sister or the coarse word? 

4. His agent said, "He is a man who normally lets things wash over him but on Sunday night something exploded inside him." It seems that Zizou's agent suffers from memory problems or wasn't his agent back in 2000 when Zidane was suspended for head-butting an opponent in the 2000 Champions League. 

http://www.theage.com.au/news/socce...dirty-terrorist/2006/07/11/1152383720192.html


----------



## Otter

*Those are great news reports. Thanks.*

*Truth is, if it's anything like American football, an important strategy is to say things to the opponents to get them to come 'unglued'. *

*Calling one's sister a prostitute or using a coarse word is milquetoast. Excuse me, did they really say, 'coarse word'? Now I'm really laughing. This is how some wars start, I'm sure.*

*Didn't he also stomp a Saudi player who was already down, some time back?*

*I also loved someone else's report that FIFA announced they may have made a mistake giving him the golden ball. Geez, ya think?*


----------



## maxiogee

It all boils down to 16 panels of 23 men kicking a ball around for a month. *Anyone would think it was important!*   

There are many people out here who were totally untouched by the events in Germany.


----------



## Fernando

About the Zidane case:

Since I was 8, all defenders in the world provoke the attackers insulting them. Only stupids are seized in the trap.

Sorry for Zidane who uses to be a good person (not always a good player, as any Real Madrid supporter knows).

And, please, do not put any expectation on the moral or mental capabilities of sport players. They are chosen for running fast not because of their good manners, as Maradona has proven.


----------



## Everness

This is so interesting!

*First lip reader:*

_BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator. 

She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday. _

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5169342.stm

*Second lip reader:*

_The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following: 

Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down". 

He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself". _

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5169342.stm

*Moral: The BBC shouldn' look for lip readers in the Yellow Pages*


----------



## geve

As someone who watches football once every eight year, and who can't claim to have read comprehensively the 191 posts of this thread, I can only say what repercussion the Mundial de fútbol will have on me: I wish I were still naive like I used to be, when I didn't suspect the level of language used among the players when they're playing and nobody can hear them. 

(the moral I see, Everness, is this one: the BBC should have asked a lip reader who understands Italian!)


----------



## Outsider

Zidane apologizes for headbutt -- sort of.


----------



## luis masci

Now the World Cup is over, they are selling weird things.
The ribbons with the names of the countries participants, the balls used in the raffle… and even the field grass. Yes, believe it or not they are selling pieces of grass about 5 X 5 inches in 90 dollars each one. 
I wonder who will buy a piece of grass, even it’s provides with a certification that proves it was indeed from one of those German stadiums.  
Ohhh and also there are special pieces, for instance those from which penalties were shot(of course you must pay more for them).
I still didn’t hear about any special pieces with some Zidane’s spit or those pieces where Materazzi fell off after that famous headbutt.


----------



## Seana

Yeah at last we have the clear answer very much in the topic here _Mundial de fútbol- su repercusión_ - everything for sale - the victory, the defeat, someone's good name, tears, the flags, the national pride, ambition, the honour, and a piece of grass... . 

Above at all  very succesful financial business, the business  on gigantic scale.


----------



## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> Zidane apologizes for headbutt -- sort of.



"Sort of" perfectly captures it:

_"Above all it was a very serious provocation. It was an inexcusable gesture but the real culprit is the person who provoked it." _

These are the worst type of apologies. Either you apologize or you don't. He is so full of himself.


----------



## badgrammar

Fernando said:
			
		

> About the Zidane case:
> 
> And, please, do not put any expectation on the moral or mental capabilities of sport players. They are chosen for running fast not because of their good manners, as Maradona has proven.



I agree... What can you expect?   They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're football players...


----------



## Everness

badgrammar said:
			
		

> I agree... What can you expect?   They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're football players...



Well, let's not generalize either. What do you think about this statement?

_What can you expect?   They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're *politicians*..._


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> Well, let's not generalize either. What do you think about this statement?
> 
> _What can you expect?   They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're *politicians*..._



What do I think of it? In comparison with "They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen. They're football players..."?

I think that politicians *are* paid to be polite. We elect people we think have standards as high as our own, at least. We also expect them to be able to debate without descending to violence as a means of solving personal disputes! 

What a silly comparison. Better to have said "They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're "lion tamers"... or "astronauts" or "shepherds" or any of a host of other job descriptions.


----------



## Sallyb36

or boxers, or wrestlers...


----------



## Lore bat

I'm courious:  Which language did Materazzi chooce to insult Zidane?


----------



## maxiogee

Lore bat said:
			
		

> I'm courious:  Which language did Materazzi chooce to insult Zidane?



What my mother and father would have referred to as "bad language"! 
I can still taste the soap!


----------



## badgrammar

Everness said:
			
		

> Well, let's not generalize either. What do you think about this statement?
> 
> _What can you expect?   They are not paid to be polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen.  They're *politicians*..._



Yup, well, I don't think that works here.

Politicians _are_ paid to be be polite, well-mannered, intelligent and eloquent (among other things).  In fact they have little chance of getting elected if they're not.

They're not paid to square off with Italy in the worldcup finals, run for 3 hours straight, and get thrown all over the field, they're politicians.

They're not paid to dance the tango, play rock and roll, and smoke reefer, they're politicians.

They're not paid to make speeches, negotiate major crises, drink tea with the Queen,  or astound us with their intellectual capacity, they're football players.

That ll sounds about right to me, although I agree that the formula is much used...  But the beauty of the formula is that you can plug in the relative info and it works.


----------



## badgrammar

Lore bat said:
			
		

> I'm courious:  Which language did Materazzi chooce to insult Zidane?



In Italian, which apparently Zidance speaks...  so a little respect here!  The guy's atleast trilingual !


----------



## LV4-26

badgrammar said:
			
		

> In Italian, which apparently Zidance speaks...  so a little respect here!  The guy's atleast trilingual !


I'm not surprised that anyone who would spend a few years in a foreign team (would that be in Italy, France, Spain or whatever) would soon know the basics of the language. I guess you understand what I mean by "basics". 
In case you don't, let me echo what geve precedently said :


> wish I were still naive like I used to be, when I didn't suspect the level of language used among the players when they're playing and nobody can hear them.


Although I wouldn't be able to have a normal conversation, I'm sure I would learn enough to hold my own on the terraces of many fooball clubs.


----------



## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> "Sort of" perfectly captures it:
> 
> _"Above all it was a very serious provocation. It was an inexcusable gesture but the real culprit is the person who provoked it." _
> 
> These are the worst type of apologies. Either you apologize or you don't. He is so full of himself.


I did not take his statements as an apology to Materazzi. He said he was ashamed that he had given the children who were watching the game a bad example, and he wanted to apologize to them. I can buy that.


----------



## Sallyb36

He did not apologise to Materazzi, he said he did not regret it because of the insults, but that he was sorry that he gave a bad example.
I don't blame him, he was being taunted incessantly.  Materazzi knew what he was doing.


----------



## Otter

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> He did not apologise to Materazzi, he said he did not regret it because of the insults, but that he was sorry that he gave a bad example.
> I don't blame him, he was being taunted incessantly. Materazzi knew what he was doing.


 
*Hmm. The world is confusing, isn't it? Here, in the U.S., legally one does not get away with physical violence as a response to verbal insults. And while we are considered by some to be "the Ugly Americans", I would bet that NO ball player would be awarded the equivalent of a golden ball after an undeniably ugly display of violence, especially one which was captured on video for an entire globe of children to witness.*

*My opinion is that while Zidane has historically proven himself to have a very bad temper - head butting, stomping, etc., FIFA's awarding him the golden ball was the much uglier message. Shameful. I'm sorry to say it really diminished the growing appreciation of world soccer that I was developing. What were all those yellow and red cards for, one wonders? If they weren't to teach/model that intentional physical violence won't be tolerated. . . .?*

*Words are very powerful, it's true. And, as such, I tried to teach my children that "I'm sorry but" is not an apology. . . . that's not an apology to teach the world's children.* *These are the messages that encourage/promote violence. *


----------



## Sallyb36

But we mustn't forget that taunting and goading people is also wrong.  do you think that Mazeratti should also be punished then?  We should not teach children that it is ok to taunt other people and to offend them with insults about their family.


----------



## Otter

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> But we mustn't forget that taunting and goading people is also wrong. do you think that Mazeratti should also be punished then? We should not teach children that it is ok to taunt other people and to offend them with insults about their family.


 
*Yes, I agree we should teach our children not to verbally insult. As I said, words are very powerful. *

*No child watching that game or the news videos witnessed anything that Mazeratti said. And, unless you have some new information that I don't, we don't know what Mazeratti said, so I hope you're not assuming or believing something you didn't witness or have proof of. Even if we do have new information/proof, the following is still my opinion:*

*Unless FIFA has established/announced rules about verbage/language, no, I don't believe we should punish Mazeratti. It would be nice if ball players didn't verbally insult each other but that's not what yellow and red cards are about, is it? Maybe I"m wrong. I'm not well versed in FIFA's rules but in American ball, I'm not aware of rules about private insults among players.*

*In my opinion, FIFA's actions were shameful, promoting a potential blight on the face of world soccer.*


----------



## Sallyb36

Otter, we are all only human and as such we have feelings that someetimes explode, and Mazeratti set out on purpose to upset Zidane, and succeeded.  According to Spanish news his mother and sister were continuously insulted and his mother is ill, which will have made him feel worse about it.  I know that violence is NEVER right, but there is only so much a person can take before he explodes.  Children need to learn this as well!


----------



## badgrammar

I understad this concern about teaching children the right thing and all, but I doubt that Zidane's actions will have any more traumatizing or "bad example" on them than seeing Janet Jackson' boob at the Superbowl.  

Atleast it becomes a subject for discussion.  The kids will ask "Why did he do that", and maybe it's in the explanation of his actions that they will learn something.  

Surely insulting eachother on the field is not THAT common, the guy did it to destabilize Zidane, and it worked.


----------



## Otter

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> Otter, we are all only human and as such we have feelings that someetimes explode, and Mazeratti set out on purpose to upset Zidane, and succeeded. According to Spanish news his mother and sister were continuously insulted and his mother is ill, which will have made him feel worse about it. I know that violence is NEVER right, but there is only so much a person can take before he explodes. Children need to learn this as well!


 
*You'll have to excuse me. I'm an American and have learned never to believe news reports. *

*Cultural differences, I guess. *

*Uh, "A picture is worth a thousand words." Didn't someone famous say that?  *


----------



## Nineu

The ranking had been made before the final.  That explains why FIFA awarded Zidane despite the incident. Anyway, it hasn't much sense to make a ranking before the most important match of the cup...


----------



## LV4-26

Otter said:
			
		

> * FIFA's awarding him the golden ball was the much uglier message. *


As I stated in one of my previous posts, the player of the tournament isn't elected by the FIFA but by journalists. In addition, most of the votes had been cast before the incident happened. Third, the FIFA is considering changing the ranking due to Zidane's gesture.


> *Unless FIFA has established/announced rules about verbage/language*


It has, actually. Only about racist abuse and the like, though.

What happened sadly happens everyday in the street. And much worse. The difference is that it was seen by billions of TV watchers. However, I don't think Materazzi and Zidane had that in mind when in the heath of the row.  Zidane's gesture was intolerable and was *not* tolerated (red card). Violence is a real nuisance  (among others) in football. It's a real gangrene. It must be banned, be it verbal or physical. But let us not hasten to find a unique scapegoat.


----------



## badgrammar

The player of the tournament is elected by journalists and members of the media BEFORE the final is played.


----------



## Nineu

In some journals it says that is elected by journalist and in other it says is elected by FIFA.  I searched in the FIFA's website and this is what I found:

The adidas Golden Ball award is presented to the outstanding player at each FIFA World Cup™ finals, with a shortlist drawn up by the FIFA technical committee and the winner voted for by representatives of the media.

Golden Ball Award Winner:  French playmaker Zinedine Zidane has received the adidas Golden Ball award after being voted player of the tournament by the accredited journalists present at the Final of the 2006 FIFA World Cup™ on 9 July.


----------



## Nineu

So they presented the final!!!   

Well, they are journalist...


----------



## badgrammar

Here's a link to a site where you can see Materazzi talking to Zidane from a new angle.  I can see his lips move, but don't speak Italian...

I'm very curious to know what was said, especially since what we imagine wa said may well be worse than what was said.

http://materazzi.wordpress.com/

You have to scroll down to the second video for the new angle...


----------



## Sallyb36

Badgrammar it must have been bad for ZZ to react as he did


----------



## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I think that politicians *are* paid to be polite. We elect people we think have standards as high as our own, at least. We also expect them to be able to debate without descending to violence as a means of solving personal disputes!



Bush and Blair invaded a sovereign country and killed thousands in the process. They debated the justification for this unlawful invasion in the arena or international diplomacy and were soundly defeated. However, they decided to follow through on their original plan. It's true that we are not talking here about ways to solve international matters. However, both share the same violent mentality that many of us approve of. 

My point was to we should avoid generalizations. For instance, some particular foreros aren't "polite, well-raised, intelligent or eloquent gentlemen." And, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't football players. However, not all foreros are like them. Same principle applies to football players. Not all of them are as violent as Zidane. That would be an asinine generalization. Zidane needs to be referred to anger management classes ASAP. He has a long history of violent outbursts. I'm sure that someone who headbutts someone else in front of 1 billion + viewers and refuses to apologize might feel entitled to beat up his spouse or children in the intimacy of their home. But whom am I to judge the great Zizou, right?


----------



## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> But whom am I to judge the great Zizou, right?


Did someone deny you the right to do so?


----------



## badgrammar

All futbol animosity between France and Spain aside, I'm sure you would be a very objective judge then, right   ?



> But whom am I to judge the great Zizou, right?


----------



## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> Bush and Blair invaded a sovereign country and killed thousands in the process. They debated the justification for this unlawful invasion in the arena or international diplomacy and were soundly defeated.


I disagree that they were soundly defeated, and so would they. I think they were wrong to do what they did, but they did it within, just, the restrictions of international law and the United Nations. That is a different matter.



> Same principle applies to football players. Not all of them are as violent as Zidane. That would be an asinine generalization.



Many (in fact i'd go so far as to say "almost all") footballers taunt and many react, it is why they taunt. I would be incredibly surprised to find a poll of those who have played against this man showed that they said he always plays a fair and sportsmanlike game!
I read a great letter to today's edition of _The Independent_ of London. The author suggested that every time a player is sent off for 'retaliation' the other player should get an automatic yellow card for provocation. In most societies it is a crime to incite someone else to violence or to commit an offence, so why not make incitement a sporting offence too. it sounds like a great idea.


----------



## Otter

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> Badgrammar it must have been bad for ZZ to react as he did


 
I know, it must have been_ really_ bad. I wonder what that Saudi player said that _caused_ Zidane to stomp him while he was on the ground.

Is there any footage of that. . . or of Zidane's previous head butting incident. . . . what had that guy said? Can we see his lips, please. 

as to "I read a great letter to today's edition of _The Independent_ of London. The author suggested that every time a player is sent off for 'retaliation' the other player should get an automatic yellow card for provocation. In most societies it is a crime to incite someone else to violence or to commit an offence, so why not make incitement a sporting offence too. it sounds like a great idea."

To me, it doesn't sound like a good solution.


----------



## maxiogee

Otter said:
			
		

> as to "I read a great letter to today's edition of _The Independent_ of London. The author suggested that every time a player is sent off for 'retaliation' the other player should get an automatic yellow card for provocation. In most societies it is a crime to incite someone else to violence or to commit an offence, so why not make incitement a sporting offence too. it sounds like a great idea."
> 
> To me, it doesn't sound like a good solution.



Why not?


----------



## Otter

Oh, the endless debates and heated arguments and revenges - the debacle of it all.  Who would figure out who really did what, when and to whom??  Automatic ejection of someone who's just been violently fouled for _alleged_ incitement????

Me no agree.


----------



## Everness

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Did someone deny you the right to do so?



Actually no. However, I try to live up to Paul's advice when it comes to passing judgment on others. 

*I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.  *
_I Corinthians  4. 3-4​_


----------



## maxiogee

Otter said:
			
		

> Oh, the endless debates and heated arguments and revenges - the debacle of it all.  Who would figure out who really did what, when and to whom??  Automatic ejection of someone who's just been violently fouled for _alleged_ incitement????
> 
> Me no agree.



At the highest levels there are four officials overseeing a game. There are numerous cameras and camera-angles available for instant replay. Your point is valid but easily dealt with by a willing authority. Don't forget that it is in the clubs' interests to stop their players from being sent off and penalised - the penalty hits the club who lose the services of an offending player. If the two players involved in taunting, incitement and retaliation were to be liable to penalty, the whole thing would stop.

It has never ceased to amaze me that a player who, say, spits at someone on the pitch can be arraigned for "bringing the game into disrepute" yet that same player can commit deliberate professional fouls, seen by all but the referee and get away with it.


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## Seana

I found some statement of 17 years old Ayoub Argoubi, who lives in the council estate outside Marseille where Zidane grew up.
quote
"Zidane will remain a great player. He has perhaps forgotten us, but his head butt harked back to his life in Castellane,"


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## Everness

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I disagree that they were soundly defeated, and so would they. I think they were wrong to do what they did, *but they did it within, just, the restrictions of international law and the United Nations.* That is a different matter.



Nonsense. Bush and Blair flashed their middle fingers to the whole world. They didn't and still don't give a sh*t about international law. 



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> I read a great letter to today's edition of _The Independent_ of London. The author suggested that every time a player is sent off for 'retaliation' the other player should get an automatic yellow card for provocation. *In most societies it is a crime to incite someone else to violence or to commit an offence*, so why not make incitement a sporting offence too. it sounds like a great idea.



Nonsense. Let's say that someone cuts you off on the highway, calls you a SOB, and flashes at you the middle finger before taking off. If you decide to chase him, cut him off, get off the car, and beat him up, you'll go to jail for assault and battery and the other guy will go home. Forget about who started the sequence. Try telling the judge while sobbing, "Your Honor, he started it." Zidane responded with physical violence to some type of verbal insult. There's nothing that someone else could tell you that justifies physical aggression on your part. If you are intelligent enough, you should just walk away. It's not worth it. Players need to take responsibility for their actions but especially for their reactions.


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## maxiogee

Everness said:
			
		

> Nonsense. Bush and Blair flashed their middle fingers to the whole world. They didn't and still don't give a sh*t about international law.


I didn't say that they were or are concerned about the rest of the world. I'm saying that what they did, whilst immoral, and all sorts of other negatives, was within international law.



> Nonsense. Let's say that someone cuts you off on the highway, calls you a SOB, and flashes at you the middle finger before taking off. If you decide to chase him, cut him off, get off the car, and beat him up, you'll go to jail for assault and battery and the other guy will go home. Forget about who started the sequence. Try telling the judge while sobbing, "Your Honor, he started it." Zidane responded with physical violence to some type of verbal insult. There's nothing that someone else could tell you that justifies physical aggression on your part. If you are intelligent enough, you should just walk away. It's not worth it. Players need to take responsibility for their actions but especially for their reactions.



That is not a comparison of similar events - the football match has evidence and the reaction is immediate, not you chasing him and getting into his car and beating him up. In the football match there are witnesses and a filmed record of the event, and the offence is usually committed immediately following the provocation.
And as you say yourself "players need to take responsibility for their own actions" - not just "particularly their reactions" - I would go so far as to say that the provocation is usually done with the sole intention of getting the sending off reaction - that to me is worse in a "sportsman" than the reaction.


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## Sallyb36

Maxiogee, I agree that it would be a great idea if the person who incited the violence was penalised as well, they should both be sent off and then  it wouldn't happen any more, or at least would happen less.


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## LV4-26

I've got another idea. Why not try and convince the players that football is only a game and should be played in a friendly atmosphere?

OK, just kidding. I'm on my way  

EDIT :
Hi, I'm still here (couln't find the exit ). On a secound thought, it occurs to me that convincing the supporters would be a much harder job than convincing the players.


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## Sallyb36

Obviously tempers will get heated during a game of football, but taunting in order toi get a reaction from an oppsoing player is CHEATING!  It should be punished on an equal footing with violence, because it is verbal ABUSE.


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## LV4-26

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> Obviously tempers will get heated during a game of football, but taunting in order toi get a reaction from an oppsoing player is CHEATING!


 I fully agree.


> It should be punished on an equal footing with violence, because it is verbal ABUSE.


 It should, yes. And having experienced both, I know some words can be more harmful than (unexpected) blows. But I can't really see (a bit as Otter said) how such a rule could be implemented. The referees can't be everywhere. Cameras have been mentionned. But, in many cases, (and particularly in the one we've been dealing with for a few days) microphones would be more useful. Hyper-sensitive microphones scattered everywhere? What would the field look like?
It seems to me that we're fighting an uphill battle and that adding new rules to the existing ones would be a bit like trying to fill a leaky vessel.

As for cheating. The actual players tend to cheat less than the club presidents. Or differently but less shamefully at least. Unless the players are involved in the affairs...I have no idea.

All in all, football is not very healthy these days. I've always preferred rugby, I guess I'm doing to switch back to it. Less money involved, less coverage by the medias, less interest from the public opinion ---> minor risk for violence and cheating.


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## Sallyb36

The referee and his aides already make split second decisions about other things, and they sometimes get those wrong, so it wouldn't be any different to make a decision regarding verbal abuse as far as I can see.  I think you're seeing problems where there wouldn't necessarily need to be any.  also, I think that just because it may be a bit difficult to implement initially it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.


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## Cnaeius

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> Obviously tempers will get heated during a game of football, but taunting in order toi get a reaction from an oppsoing player is CHEATING! It should be punished on an equal footing with violence, because it is verbal ABUSE.


 
Only a specific thing: when we give punishments we have to provide certain proofs, otherwise punishments becomes an act of "tyranny". How to prove that one has taunted _in order to get a reaction from the opposing_? I speak generally because in the Materazzi-Zidane I really don't see any proof. Until now I mean.
I always believed in judgements that supports civil liberties. I don't like very much when judgements blames a priori


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## LV4-26

Sallyb36 said:
			
		

> also, I think that just because it may be a bit difficult to implement initially it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.


True. Let us try, then. (of course, my use of the first person plural is as rethorical as yours ).
My point is just I'm afraid the football field (and the game) might look like a prisoners' camp. It may be necessary but I wish it wouldn't.
I know my position is hard to defend : I'm dreaming of a real revolution thanks to which enforcement of the rules would hardly be necessary.
But then again, that revolution would involve, not  only the players, but probably the whole organization. Which is why I find it counter-productive to focus and put the blame on only one player. But that point doesn't address you.


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## Everness

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I've got another idea. Why not try and convince the players that football is only a game and should be played in a friendly atmosphere?
> 
> OK, just kidding. I'm on my way



Football is a physical game. There's a lot of contact that comes with the game. This allows some players to play dirty and on occasions seriously harm other players. 

However, in this World Cup we saw more diving and pretending than real fouls. Football players have shown that they can be great actors. Watching on TV their screams and grimaces of pain when going down, viewers could easily expect that a priest would come onto the field to give them their last rites.

Zizou's case is different. What he did in front of 1 billion viewers is what you usually see in street football or in street fights. It's hard to understand why people are still trying to minimize or whitewash his unsportmanship.


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## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> Football is a physical game. There's a lot of contact that comes with the game. This allows some players to play dirty and on occasions seriously harm other players.


 Yes. I would say many of those fouls are only half-deliberate (and sometimes not at all). They are not premeditated. "I must absolutely keep/get that ball/stop that attacker" is the motto and therefore, reflexes are more involved than reflexion. I think a good referee should give a free kick here and spare the cards as much as possible.


> However, in this World Cup we saw more diving and pretending than real fouls.


 A very good point. Diving appears to be a fairly recent trend. I mean there have always been simulators but not to that point and not so numerous. I guess and hope they'll be dealt with more attention in the future.


> Zizou's case is different. What he did in front of 1 billion viewers is what you usually see in street football or in street fights. It's hard to understand why people are still trying to minimize or whitewash his unsportmanship.


 Yes, it's different. Different in that the possession of the ball was not at stake. Zidane had obviously no intention of changing the course of the match in his favour (if he had, he obviously failed ). His gesture resulted in harming himself much more than anybody else. (10' from the end of his career!). 
That's why I wouldn't use the word "unsportmanship". I don't think it is a matter of sportmanship or unsportmanship. I'd be more severe than you are here : I think it just deals with hooliganism. "Street fights", as you said, seems to be the relevant word. The fact that it happened on the field almost changes nothing. Were those two guys even still aware they were on the field?



> It's hard to understand


Rethorical? Does it not boil down to mythology? The breaking of idols? Here's an attempted explanation (I may be wrong)
Two possible reactions when a venerated hero suddenly demonstrates he is not a god.
1. total rejection. He is a Satan. "_The Tarpeian rock is near the Capitole"_. He is lapidated (only symbolically these days ).
2. for some (sociological) reason, we steel need him to play the part of the hero. He keeps being praised whatever he has done.
Those two reactions coexist as far as I can see. #1 one may be less obvious but you can witness it here and there. It is less widespread nowadays because something happened 2000 years ago that changed us. But, of course, if we'd learned the lesson properly we wouldn't venerate anybody in the first place.

Of course, there's a third one :
3. OK, he's just a human being, neither better nor worse than I am and let's pass on to another topic.


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## luis masci

I’m surprised because of a game incident (despite Zidane and WC involving it’s just a game incident) has such a world wide repercussion. 
I think it’s partly due to globalization and partly maybe it’s a psychological escape; we don’t talk about the new violence focus in Middle East, or the last terrorist attack in India, or about day to day violence in Iraq doesn’t stop. These topics produce to us a lump in the stomach that doesn’t occur talking about Zidane’s headbutt affair. 
Well… at least not to us, only to Materazzi


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## badgrammar

Bien vu, Luis...  Easier to think about sports and headbutts.


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## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> I’m surprised because of a game incident (despite Zidane and WC involving it’s just a game incident) has such a world wide repercussion.
> I think it’s partly due to globalization and partly maybe it’s a psychological escape; we don’t talk about the new violence focus in Middle East, or the last terrorist attack in India, or about day to day violence in Iraq doesn’t stop. These topics produce to us a lump in the stomach that doesn’t occur talking about Zidane’s headbutt affair.
> Well… at least not to us, only to Materazzi



One day, Don Luis, countries will solve their disputes on a football field. Winner takes all! Of course France will have a significant advantage over other countries...


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## Everness

luis masci said:
			
		

> we don’t talk about the new violence focus in Middle East, or the last terrorist attack in India, or about day to day violence in Iraq doesn’t stop. These topics produce to us a lump in the stomach that doesn’t occur talking about Zidane’s headbutt affair.
> Well… at least not to us, only to Materazzi



Don Luis, another thought (well, I might be exaggerating a bit). Let's not forget that football and other sports have been created by governments as instruments  of social control. I know where you're coming from but let me tell you that if we didn't have football and sports in general, human beings, especially those from the male species, would be at each other's throat. Football is a great diversion: it diverts and entertains. I think that if football didn't exist men would be spending more time eating and having sex, their other two diversions (Let's see what Toni has to say about my mental health on this one.)


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