# Женщина (pronunciation)



## James Bates

Is the word жен*щ*ина pronounced with a doubled ɕ sound, like му*жч*ина? I can't imagine how it could be, for the simple reason that the ɕ is preceded by a consonant. Could a native help me out?


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## ahvalj

I would say, no — if we compare rhyming words for «женщина», e. g. «Еньшино» (a village) or Сенчина (a surname) — the length of the consonant element between «нь» and «ина» is more or less the same. I have a feeling that «щ» is somewhat longer than «ш» even here, but it is not a full double consonant as in «мужчина».


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## ahvalj

By the way, I always wanted to write this somewhere but never found an occasion: many foreign manuals state that the verbal endings «-тся» and «-ться» are pronounced with a double consonant, i. e. like «-цца». That is not true, since e. g. the words «водиться» and «водица» are pronounced exactly the same, with a plain single «ц».


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## Maroseika

James Bates said:


> Is the word жен*щ*ина pronounced with a doubled ɕ sound, like му*жч*ина? I can't imagine how it could be, for the simple reason that the ɕ is preceded by a consonant. Could a native help me out?



I think this is quite the same sound щ or ɕ: . But what's a problem with pronunciation it after a consonant? 
Maybe there is still a little difference in strength due to different position relative to the stressed syllable.  
By the way, щ is usally interpreted not as doubled, but as long soft ш.


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## James Bates

Thank you, everybody!


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## ahvalj

James Bates said:


> Thank you, everybody!


Actually, we gave opposite answers.


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## James Bates

I guess I can follow either one of you since you're both natives.


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## ahvalj

James Bates said:


> I guess I can follow either one of you since you're both natives.


I would love to hear Maroseika pronounce this word as he had described. It appears that the last 35+ years I spoke the wrong way.


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> the words «водиться» and «водица» are pronounced exactly the same, with a plain single «ц».



Не всё так просто... Попробуйте произнести "птицу видел" и "птиц увидел". Ощущаете разницу в длительности "ц"?


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## ahvalj

mosquit said:


> Не всё так просто... Попробуйте произнести "птицу видел" и "птиц увидел". Ощущаете разницу в длительности "ц"?


А какое это имеет отношение? Тут граница между словами, к тому же опасность смешения с винительным падежом. Любое одушевлённое существительное первого склонения на одиночный согласный получит некоторый перерыв в этом случае: даму видел — дам увидел, мужчину видел — мужчин увидел, корову видел — коров увидел итэпэ.


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## Awwal12

James Bates said:


> Is the word жен*щ*ина pronounced with a doubled ɕ sound, like му*жч*ина?


[ɕ] in the slow Russian speech is always slightly prolonged ([ɕ:]).
However, in the word "мужчина" that prolonged sound is also doubled.
So, whatever the actual length of /щ/ phoneme can be in different  circumstances, in the word "мужчина" it is expected to last longer than  in the word "женщина".
I must, however, also note that the length of [ɕ] is never phonemically relevant in Russian anyway.





ahvalj said:


> корову видел — коров увидел


(I'm sorry, but at least this example is surely not the best one, considering that in the first phrase you have [-vʊv-] and in the second one you have [-fʊv-]. )
Also I'm afraid that all that is not really relevant in any manner to the first question.
And also I must again note that Russian doesn't opposes long and short consonants in any *consistent* manner anyway, except probably on SOME morphemic borders (like подевать vs. поддевать, which I cannot even imagine to be pronounced identically).


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## mosquit

ahvalj said:


> Тут граница между словами, к тому же опасность смешения с винительным падежом. Любое одушевлённое существительное первого склонения на одиночный согласный получит некоторый перерыв в этом случае


На мой слух, как раз наоборот: в ед. числе "ц" удваивается, во мн. - нет. С другими согласными ничего подобного не происходит; например, "щ" в аналогичных позициях звучит одинаково. 
Впрочем, всё это не по теме, конечно.


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## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> (I'm sorry, but at least this example is surely not the best one, considering that in the first phrase you have [-vʊv-] and in the second one you have [-fʊv-]. )
> Also I'm afraid that all that is not really relevant in any manner to the first question.


Theoretically yes, but practically the interruption of the air movement in «коров увидел» as opposed to «корову видел» is exactly the same as in the other examples.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> Theoretically yes, but practically the interruption of the air movement in «коров увидел» as opposed to «корову видел» is exactly the same as in the other examples.


It's not about the interruption of the air. It's about voicing.
Compare:
корову видел
коров увидел
Бабёф увидел


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## ahvalj

Awwal12 said:


> It's not about the interruption of the air. It's about voicing.
> Compare:
> корову видел
> коров увидел
> Бабёф увидел


It may again be individual or regional variation, but I would rather pronounce the latter two examples in the same way, with a slight stop between words to emphasize that u- belongs to the second word. So «коров увидел» will have this stop, except in the most rapid speech, and «коров он увидел» will not, since there is no danger of homonymy in the second case.


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## Awwal12

ahvalj said:


> I would rather pronounce the latter two examples in the same way


Exactly. And #1 and #2 are different anyway regardless of any possible stops (just because of [v] vs. [f]).


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## learnerr

ahvalj said:


> So «коров увидел» will have this stop, except in the most rapid speech, and «коров он увидел» will not, since there is no danger of homonymy in the second case.


Have you tried «он дам увидел» on someone else? Perhaps the answer would be (after you had insisted on the answer, since the asked party would think it's all too obvious to deserve a reply) that you had said «он даму видел» (which is a more natural situation to think of)? The need for lack of ambiguity is an invented need, it is not a thing that would drive people's linguistic behaviour: usually context is enough to disambiguate such matters, and when it isn't, one could always add more context.


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## flance_j

Note: The word "мужчина" usually sounds like "мущина" (but it's always written "мужчина").
It's normal.
When a woman wants to say ironic or depreciatingly she can say "мужчина" and pronounce each letter literallly (often also in form "мужчинка").


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## Awwal12

flance_j said:


> Note: The word "мужчина" usually sounds like "мущина" (but it's always written "мужчина").
> It's normal.


That must be pretty obvious to the topicstarter, considering the nature of his question.


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