# Die Sonate vom guten Menschen



## Miaomiao Gong

Hallo,
I have learned that the German preposition "von" means "from" in English. However, I don't understand why "Die Sonate vom Guten Menschen" is mostly translated as "the sonata for a good man“ instead of "the sonata from a good man"? 
Thank you!


----------



## perpend

Where did you read that? What is you source, Miao?


----------



## Miaomiao Gong

perpend said:


> Where did you read that? What is you source, Miao?



I am seeing a movie "Das Leben der Anderen". There is a book in it. I googled it, but the result confuses me.


----------



## perpend

Thanks for more context! I want to know now, too.  Hopefully, someone has seen this movie.


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Both translations are wrong. It should be, “The Sonata _of the_ Good Man.”


----------



## Miaomiao Gong

perpend said:


> Thanks for more context! I want to know now, too.  Hopefully, someone has seen this movie.


Thank you, perpend.
There must be many people knowing this movie, because it was a big winner of Oscar.


----------



## Frank78

"About", beside "of", should also be possible: "The Sonata about the Good Man."

"Von"/"Vom" can often be ambiguous, e.g. "das Bild von meiner Mutter" can be a picture showing my mum or a picture which belongs to my mum.  Only context can tell you.


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Frank78 said:


> "About", beside "of", should also be possible: "The Sonata about the Good Man."


Actually, when the title of a work begins with something like “The Story…” or “The Sonata…,” the preposition you use is “of,” not “about,” just like it’s “Die Sonate vom guten Menschen,” not “Die Sonate über den guten Menschen.”



Frank78 said:


> "Von"/"Vom" can often be ambiguous, e.g. "das Bild von meiner Mutter" can be a picture showing my mum or a picture which belongs to my mum.  Only context can tell you.


In the latter case, you should say, “das Bild meiner Mutter.”


----------



## Frank78

Tom S. Fox said:


> In the latter case, you should say, “das Bild meiner Mutter.”



You might have recognized that the genitive is being replaced by the dative in colloquial language.

Furthermore is "das Bild meiner Mutter" not less ambiguous.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Tom S. Fox said:


> Actually, when the title of a work begins with something like “The Story…” or “The Sonata…,” the preposition you use is “of,” not “about,” just like it’s “Die Sonate vom guten Menschen,” not “Die Sonate über den guten Menschen.”


The opposite is true. In _Die Sonate vom guten Menschen, _ _von/vom _literally means _about. _Cf. _​Ich erzähle dir von ihm._


----------



## Dan2

Miaomiao Gong said:


> I have learned that the German preposition "von" means "from" in English.


You _should _have learned  that "von" (like Romance "de"/"di") means _either _"of" _or _"from".  Seriously, "von" with the meaning "of" is extremely common.  If you think that "von" simply means "from" you will misinterpret many sentences.  (EDIT: And going in the other direction, "von" is often not the best translation of (or "translation for"!) English "from".)

Also, I would question whether "man" is the best translation for "Mensch".  Menschen aren't limited to being men.  "Mensch" is often translated as "human being" but that may be too technical a term here.  "person" is another possibility, but also not entirely satisfying.

The picture ambiguities that Frank mentions exist in English too.  It's the "of" vs "from" ambiguity that English speakers have to be especially aware of, I'd say.

EDIT: Not relevant to the OP sentence, but since I've commented on what "von" means it should probably be mentioned that another very common use of "von" is in the formation of the passive, where it corresponds to English "by".


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Frank78 said:


> You might have recognized that the genitive is being replaced by the dative in colloquial language.


I have “recognized” no such thing. I have heard this claim many times, but, unlike most other people, I didn’t just believe it without checking.



Schimmelreiter said:


> In Die Sonate vom guten Menschen, von/vom literally means about. Cf. ​Ich erzähle dir von ihm.


Counter-example: “Sie reden über dich.” ‒ “They are talking about you.”


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Tom S. Fox said:


> Counter-example: “Sie reden über dich.” ‒ “They are talking about you.”


I said: In _Die Sonate vom guten Menschen, _the meaning of _vom_ is about.
You say: In _Sie reden über dich, _the meaning of _über_ is about.

In order for yours to be a "counter-example", you must be assuming that any given word in German can only translate into one word in English and vice versa.


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Schimmelreiter said:


> In order for yours to be a "counter-example", you must be assuming that any given word in German can only translate into one word in English and vice versa.


You are the one who assumed that, not me. After all, you’re the one who said that, and I quote, “_von/vom _literally means _about_”* because the “von” in “Ich erzähle dir von ihm.” is translated as such. I only played by, and beat you with, your own rules.

*Ignoring for now that, if anything, “vo*m*” means “about _the_.”


----------



## Schimmelreiter

Tom S. Fox said:


> You are the one who assumed that, not me. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have said that “the opposite is true.” I only played by, and beat you with, your own rules.




You wrote:


Tom S. Fox said:


> Actually, when the title of a work begins with something like “The Story…” or “The Sonata…,” the preposition you use is “of,” not “about,” just like it’s “Die Sonate vom guten Menschen,” not “Die Sonate über den guten Menschen.”


My reply:


Schimmelreiter said:


> The opposite is true. In _Die Sonate vom guten Menschen, __von/vom _literally means _about. _Cf. _​Ich erzähle dir von ihm._


I stick with my view that the opposite of what you said _(not "about")_ is true. The meaning of _vom_ *is* _about _​*here *(not at all always, see what I wrote: "*In *_*Die Sonate vom guten Menschen*, __von/vom _literally means _about._")


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Schimmelreiter said:


> I stick with my view that the opposite of what you said _(not "about")_ is true.


In that case you’re plain wrong. It’s _The Ballad *of* Davy Crockett_, _The Story *of* the Youth Who Went Forth to Learn What Fear Was_, _The Legend *of* Korra_… The list goes on and on.
In fact, just check Google Books: https://www.google.de/search?q="The+Legend"&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1


----------



## Schimmelreiter

In Google, I haven't seen one instance of _Sonata of xy_ where xy was a person that the sonata was about. For example, _Sonata of Mozart_ invariably means _Sonata by Mozart. _A sonata just isn't a tale or story, where _of_ is indeed the preposition of choice.

I came to the defence of Frank78, who had suggested we say _The Sonata about the Good Man _only to find his suggestion criticised by Tom S. Fox: _the preposition you use is “of,” not “about”. 

_We might still discuss whether, by analogy, we might use _of_ in conjunction with _sonata_. What I believed I'd better speak out against was the kind of rigorism I felt was at work in flatly ruling out _about._


----------



## Tom S. Fox

Schimmelreiter said:


> In Google, I haven't seen one instance of _Sonata of xy_ where xy was a person that the sonata was about.


Maybe not when that person is referred to by name, but this isn’t the case here. I garantuee you that “The Sonata of the Good Man” sounds better than “The Sonata about the Good Man.” In fact, if you enter “The Sonata about the Good Man” into Google, the only result is this very thread, while “The Sonata of the Good Man” produces several results. Now I expect you will once again subtly shift your position and come up with yet another get-out clause just so you won’t have to admit you were wrong.



Schimmelreiter said:


> A sonata just isn't a tale or story, where _of_ is indeed the preposition of choice.


This doesn’t make any sense. You say that a sonata isn’t a tale or a story, yet you insist on the preposition _about_. How can it be “about” something if it isn’t a tale or story?



Schimmelreiter said:


> I came to the defence of Frank78, who had suggested we say _The Sonata about the Good Man _only to find his suggestion criticised by Tom S. Fox: _the preposition you use is “of,” not “about”._


What I said — that you use _of_ in titles like “The Story/Legend/Ballad/ect. of…” — is absolutely correct, as I have demonstrated several times now.




Schimmelreiter said:


> What I believed I'd better speak out against was the kind of rigorism I felt was at work in flatly ruling out _about._


I didn’t flatly rule out _about_, you’re flatly and pesistently ruling out _of_. May I remind you of your own words:


Schimmelreiter said:


> The opposite is true. In _Die Sonate vom guten Menschen, _ _von/vom _literally means _about. _Cf. _​Ich erzähle dir von ihm._
> […]
> I stick with my view that the opposite of what you said _(not "about")_ is true. The meaning of _vom_ *is* _about _​here.


Yes, I know, you secretly added “(not at all always, see what I wrote: "*In *_*Die Sonate vom guten Menschen*, __von/vom _literally means _about._")” about an hour later and hoped I wouldn’t notice.


----------



## berndf

The two of you are arguing whether _von_ in expressions of the type _die Geschichte von/vom/von der XYZ_ means_ the story of (the) XYZ_ or _the story about (the) XYZ_.

It should first be stated that you are both right becaue the English word _of_ does mean _about_ in this type of expressions.

Now comes the part where you seem to have been talking at cross-purposes here: SR and Frank were only concerned with what _vom_ *means *in this type of expressions while Tom's point was which preposition *should be used* in English. Again, you are both right.


----------



## perpend

I think if you look at the OP and google a little about the film, then the OP should stand as is: _The Sonata *for *a good man._

In other words, @miao "for" sounds best for the context, in my opinion, for the story-line of the movie.

Preposition Debate 2014 is secondary, in my opinion.


----------



## berndf

perpend said:


> I think if you look at the OP and google a little about the film, then the OP should stand as is: _The Sonata *for *a good man._
> 
> In other words, @miao "for" sounds best for the context, in my opinion, for the story-line of the movie.
> 
> Preposition Debate 2014 is secondary, in my opinion.


The preposition _for_ is certainly not an accurate translation of _von_ in any context. Book titles often aren't  actual translations or if they are then often very liberal ones. This seems to be the case here.


----------



## perpend

So, what is the Sonata about, and who is the Sonata for?


----------



## berndf

I suppose that's everybody's guess. The piece, and the score shown in the film, is fictitious.


----------



## perpend

Then, this thread is fictitious by way of association.

Now, due to the story-line, I think we can imagine what's intended, but that's also neither here nor there, so isn't the whole thing moot?


----------



## ChingghisKhan

Miaomiao Gong said:


> Hallo,
> I have learned that the German preposition "von" means "from" in English. However, I don't understand why "Die Sonate vom Guten Menschen" is mostly translated as "the sonata for a good man“ instead of "the sonata from a good man"?
> Thank you!


First of all, the word "von" (with an "N" is a different word than "vom" with an "M") Depending on the context, it can have different meanings.
The correct translation would be "The Sonata of the Good Human" 
Explanaition: "Mensch" means human, gender neutral!


----------



## ChingghisKhan

Dan2 said:


> You _should _have learned  that "von" (like Romance "de"/"di") means _either _"of" _or _"from".  Seriously, "von" with the meaning "of" is extremely common.  If you think that "von" simply means "from" you will misinterpret many sentences.  (EDIT: And going in the other direction, "von" is often not the best translation of (or "translation for"!) English "from".)
> 
> Also, I would question whether "man" is the best translation for "Mensch".  Menschen aren't limited to being men.  "Mensch" is often translated as "human being" but that may be too technical a term here.  "person" is another possibility, but also not entirely satisfying.
> 
> The picture ambiguities that Frank mentions exist in English too.  It's the "of" vs "from" ambiguity that English speakers have to be especially aware of, I'd say.
> 
> EDIT: Not relevant to the OP sentence, but since I've commented on what "von" means it should probably be mentioned that another very common use of "von" is in the formation of the passive, where it corresponds to English "by".



Dan2, you are right:

First of all, the word "von" (with an "N" is a different word than "vom" with an "M") Depending on the context, it can have different meanings.
The correct translation would be "The Sonata of the Good Human" 
Explanaition: "Mensch" means human, gender neutral!


----------

