# Allophones of "e"



## Arabus

Hello,

The letter transcribed _e_ seems to have two allophones or sounds, one of them being closer to [æ] than the regular sound of _e_.

The open sound [æ] seems to occur in certain words. Sometimes the two sounds seem to alternate in one word (e.g. the word _defter_ pronounced [deftær]).

I don't know if these two sounds alternate freely or if there is some rule for them. I assume that they are free variants since they are transcribed by the same symbol in the alphabet.


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## maxguncel

We never sound /e/ like /æ/
*
Defter* - these /e/ sounds both the same /e/


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## Serafim.

Even if there is one letter stands for E in Turkish alphabet , in fact there are two kind of "e" vowel in Turkish language and they are not similiar to Arabic أ sound or english "a" as in "cat" at all. However Azerbaijanis distinguish two type "e" in their alphabet. 

If e exists in a clossed syllable we call it opened e as in Sen (you). If e exists in an opened syllable we call it clossed e as in "sekiz"(se-kiz =eight). They sound like french é and ê.


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## Black4blue

maxguncel said:


> We never sound /e/ like /æ/
> 
> *Defter* - these /e/ sounds both the same /e/


 
Completely wrong.
Most of the e letters in Turkish are pronounced as /ɛ/.
And we rarely pronounce it as /e/ like what Serafim said.
And yeah, it gets like /æ/ sometimes before the letter r.

Hope it helps.


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## Arabus

Thank you all.

I am pretty sure that Truks do prounounce e as [æ]. In Syria people are taught to pronounce Turkish e always as Arabic a (which sounds [æ] by most speakers); but English references say that Turkish e sounds [e]. I think though that Black4blue is right when he says that it is rather pronounced [ɛ].

I think that Turkish e was originally pronounced [æ] (as it is obvious from the Arabic and Persian loans in Turkish; for example, _defter _is pronounced [dæftær] in Arabic). This is also the reason why people in Syria are taught to pronounce Turkish e as [æ]. The raising of Turkish  [æ] to [ɛ] (and then possibly to [e]) must be recent, since it is still incomplete.

The rule Serafim gave sounds reasonable, although it does not explain [dɛftær]. The rule Black4blue gave sounds better, but it must be expanded to include at least /n/ (I am sure _sen _is pronounced [sæn]). I have to be careful listening to see if it also includes /l/ and /m/.

 Teşekkür ederim.


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## Serafim.

Dear all, 

The vowels e in defter are pronounced just like e in "SEN" since the both syllable in def-ter are clossed syllable which fits exactly in the formula I wrote above. There is not æ sound in Turkish. Æ is a very rude to turkish ears as well.


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## Eline0909

Rallino explained this in march 2009, under the title pronounciation in Turkish.

My opinion is that, there are two diffreent pronounciations of e but I would say that majority of Turkish people do not really attach importance to this and I am even sure that many of them are not even aware of this subtle difference.


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## maxguncel

It said to myselft many times *defter, sen* and the other words with e in Turkish but they all sound the same. I think you're making it difficult.

/æ/ sound in the word *cat* has noting to do with the sound in the word *defter*.


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## Eline0909

maxguncel said:


> It said to myselft many times *defter, sen* and the other words with e in Turkish but they all sound the same. I think you're making it difficult.
> 
> /æ/ sound in the word *cat* has noting to do with the sound in the word *defter*.


 
Try with evet!

Some people use open e in the first syllable, some closed. But most of the Turks use closed e. I do not think you have ever thought of it because the diffrence is subtle and it does not happen every day.


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## Arabus

I think Black4blue got it right. /e/ sounds [æ] before /r/ and /n/. This is not uncommon in languages.

It would be written this way in transformational phonology:

/ɛ/ ----> [æ] / ____ {/r/, /n/}


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## Arabus

It is natural for Turkish speakers not to realize the difference, because these two sounds are one phoneme (letter). In Arabic, however, /ɛ/ is a different phoneme from /æ/. So the alternation between the two sounds strikes heavily on the ears of an Arabic speaker.

On the other hand, the sounds of Turkish a and e ([æ] as Arabic speakers are taught) are two variants of one phoneme in Arabic; so confusion between the two is common for an Arabic speaker learning Turkish.


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## maxguncel

I tried it with *evet*, but no difference.

Maybe I'm wrong but I still think, in Turkish we have only one /e/ sound.


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## Arabus

What about _*e*rkekl*e*r_? These two sound different from _t*e*l*e*fon_, right?

Perhaps there is regional variation.


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## macrotis

I agree with *maxguncel*. There's no æ sound for *e* in _standard _Turkish.



Arabus said:


> What about _*e*rkekl*e*r_? These two sound different from _t*e*l*e*fon_, right?



I pronounce all of them with the same e sound.



> Perhaps there is regional variation.


That or to a funny effect.


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## Arabus

Can you or maxguncel upload a sound clip so that I hear how you pronounce them?


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## macrotis

I think TRT (Turkish Radio Television) news reporters may help more than I can. Here you can choose to watch or listen online TV or radio broadcasts.


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## Arabus

Well, I _have _heard a lot of native Turkish speakers. This was how I noticed the allophony.


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## Black4blue

macrotis said:


> I agree with *maxguncel*. There's no æ sound for *e* in _standard _Turkish.
> 
> I pronounce all of them with the same e sound.
> 
> That or to a funny effect.


 
Let me tell you how to realize the difference easily.
Try to say "geliyorum" few times and then while you're saying it, stop at the end of "gel-". You will see how close the _e_ in geliyorum is.
Then do the opposite one. Try to say gel (normal gel) and then suddenly add "-iyorum" after it. You will again see how open the _e_ in gel is.


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## Black4blue

Bunun dışına bir şeyi tekrar söyleyeim. Türkçedeki e harfelerinin çoğu /ɛ/, /e/ değil. (Bu söylediğim æ sesiyle ilgili değil, o konuda daha sonuca varmadık) Bu site de dahil bazı yerlerde yaptığım düzeltmeleri yanlış sanıp tekrar e'ye çeviriyor ponetik alfabeyi bildiğini sanan bazı kişiler. IPA'daki (uluslararası fonetik alfabe) /e/ sesi Türkçedekine göre daha, hatta bayağı bir kapalıdır. Almanya'ya göçmenlerimiz e'leri hep kapalı söylerler ya, işte /e/ sesi odur. 
Aradaki farkı daha iyi anlayabilmeniz için Youtube'da _german alphabet_ yazıp çıkan videoları izlemenizi öneririm. A, be, tse ... derken e'leri (/e/) nasıl kapalı söylediklerini göreceksiniz.


Æ konusuna gelince; r'den önceki e harflerinin Türkçe'de æ'ye dönüştüğünü düşünüyorum hala. Mesela okulumdaki bir öğretmen r'den önceki e'leri açmıyor, "yeter" dediğinde ilk e'yle ikincisini aynı şekilde söylüyor, gerisi gülme krizi. 
Avusturya Almancasında da kelimelere (mesela lernen) bakarsanız onların da kapalı e ile söylediklerini ve Türkçeye ne kadar zıt olduğunu görürsünüz.


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## Rallino

*There is general rule for when and how to pronunce each e.*

Most e's are closed apart from the rule below:

In the same syllable, if the e is follwed by: *r*,* l*, *m* or *n*. The "e" is open.

Ex:

*Sen*, the "e" is followed by "n", therefore pronunced: sæn.

Let's make it accusative:

Seni, the syllables are: Se-ni, the "e" is *not* follwed by an "n" in the same syllable. Thus: closed.

There are a few exceptions of course. For instance the word "renk" is pronunced with a closed n, although it is follwed by an "n". But I'm guessing this rule can still help you out.


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## Arabus

Thanks. So this is a combination of the rules Serafim and Black4blue mentioned.

I can't say anything about _renk_, but one thing that comes to mind is that the n in this case may be velar rather than frontal. Also _renk _is double-closed. I don't know which is the reason.


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## yavuzotar

There is one closed 'e' and another open 'e' in Turkish.

The 'e' in 'erik' is a closed one, but the first 'e' in 'ertesi' is an open one.


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