# кусочек/кусок; slice/piece



## eni8ma

кусочек хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на - piece of bread/cake/cheese/lemon
кусочек масла - dob of butter (also "some butter"?)
кусок сахара - lump of sugar (also "some sugar"?)
кусок шоколада - piece of chocolate (плитка шоколада - bar of chocolate)
кусок мыла - bar of soap

Apparently, both кусочек and кусок are small parts of something removed from the whole.
So is "кусок мыла" one bar  taken from the whole batch of soap (from when soap was home-made)?

Is it just a question of familiarity that tells us which word to use? Is there any way to guess which term to use? Are they interchangeable?

From this (limited) sample, so far, all the items that use кусочек can be sliced (but could also be chunks torn off), whereas the items using кусок are not usually sliced (sugar, chocolate, soap).

If we want to specify that the piece is a slice, ломтик can be used for a slice of bread, lemon, etc, but it seems кусок must be used for a slice of meat - is that right?

ломтик хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на - slice of bread/cake/cheese/lemon
кусок мя́са/ham/bacon - slice of meat/ham/bacon


----------



## rusita preciosa

Generally, кусочек is a smaller piece than кусок. Otherwise, you just have to memorize.

кусочек хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на - small piece/slice of bread/cake/cheese/lemon
кусок хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на – piece/slice of bread/cake/cheese/lemon (although for citrus we rather use долька)
кусочек масла - dob of butter (also "some butter"?)
кусок масла - somewhat larger piece of butter (as in when you buy butted by weight)
кусок сахара or кусочек сахара – normally, sugar cube , but I guess it could be "lump" too (also "some sugar"?) 
кусочек шоколада – small piece of chocolate 
кусок шоколада - piece of chocolate
плитка шоколада - bar of chocolate
кусок мыла - bar of soap

From this (limited) sample, so far, all the items that use кусочек can be sliced (but could also be chunks torn off), whereas the items using кусок are not usually sliced (sugar, chocolate, soap) – not really; кусок can be just a bigger slice/piece, could be either torn or cut off

If we want to specify that the piece is a slice, ломтик can be used for a slice of bread, lemon, etc, but it seems кусок must be used for a slice of meat - is that right? - hmmm… it would be a bit strange to hear ломтик about anything but bread, but quite understandable. 

I would not try to align English and Russian words for bar, piece, slice etc… there is no logic as to which word we use, just memorize.


----------



## Maroseika

eni8ma said:


> кусочек хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на - piece of bread/cake/cheese/lemon
> кусочек масла - dob of butter (also "some butter"?)
> кусок сахара - lump of sugar (also "some sugar"?)
> кусок шоколада - piece of chocolate (плитка шоколада - bar of chocolate)
> кусок мыла - bar of soap


Кусок лимона is not very good, usually it is ломтик лимона.



> Apparently, both кусочек and кусок are small parts of something removed from the whole.
> So is "кусок мыла" one bar  taken from the whole batch of soap (from when soap was home-made)?


Кусок мыла means as one whole bar as a remnant. The latter is also called обмылок, especially relatively little one.





> Is it just a question of familiarity that tells us which word to use? Is there any way to guess which term to use? Are they interchangeable?


Кусочек means as маленький кусок as what you call "familiar" attitude.
You can guess fromthe context. If someone asking you кусочек торта pointing at the cake, most likely he just wants some cake but wants to soften his request.



> From this (limited) sample, so far, all the items that use кусочек can be sliced (but could also be chunks torn off), whereas the items using кусок are not usually sliced (sugar, chocolate, soap).


I cannot see any relation. Кусочек сахара, мыла, шоколада are also widely used. It depends only on the size and "familiarity".



> If we want to specify that the piece is a slice, ломтик can be used for a slice of bread, lemon, etc, but it seems кусок must be used for a slice of meat - is that right?


Yes, ломтик мяса is not possible even if it is sliced.



> ломтик хлеба/торта/сыра/лимо́на - slice of bread/cake/cheese/lemon
> кусок мя́са/ham/bacon - slice of meat/ham/bacon


Ломтик торта doesn't work. Кусок or кусочeк торта is what we use.
But ломтик ветчины is quite possible as well as кусок (кусочек) сыра.
Кусок грудинки is right.


----------



## eni8ma

rusita preciosa said:


> Generally, кусочек is a smaller piece than кусок. Otherwise, you just have to memorize.


Thanks for that - some order established 


rusita preciosa said:


> I would not try to align English and Russian words for bar, piece, slice etc… there is no logic as to which word we use, just memorize.


I am not particularly wanting to align piece, bar, etc, as it was already obvious that the matches are random.  I am mainly concerned with кусочек vs кусок, but wondering if there is also a word for slice.

Are there several words for slice - depending on what it is a slice of? or do you generally not use a particular word for slice, and just use кусок (or кусочек)? Perhaps the distinctions would be made using verbs instead?


----------



## eni8ma

Maroseika said:


> Кусочек means as маленький кусок as what you call "familiar" attitude.
> You can guess from the context. If someone asking you кусочек торта pointing at the cake, most likely he just wants some cake but wants to soften his request.


A useful tip for when I'm out somewhere. 


Maroseika said:


> Ломтик торта doesn't work. Кусок or кусочeк торта is what we use.
> But ломтик ветчины is quite possible as well as кусок (кусочек) сыра.
> Кусок грудинки is right.


Спасибо


----------



## eni8ma

rusita preciosa said:


> кусок сахара or кусочек сахара – normally, sugar cube , but I guess it could be "lump" too


People sometimes refer to sugar cubes as lumps - "one lump, or two?".  Not sure if that is a British thing, or US, or just some localities.


----------



## rusita preciosa

I was imagining sugar cube as this:
http://plate-by-plate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/white-sugar-2.jpg

and sugar lump as this (less common in Russia, but not unusual):
http://wholefoodcatalog.info/images/300x300/3001.jpg?1274772991

Both could be кусок сахара or кусочек сахара.


----------



## Rosett

Кусок мыла может быть целым. Обмылок - это то, что остается от целого куска, когда тот подходит к концу. Он же может быть кусочком.
Хлеба - ломоть (если потолще), то же - и ветчины. Если кусок хлеба - то либо это часть буханки (остаток, меньше половины), либо недоеденный хлеб - разной формы. Ломтик хлеба - тонкий, под сервировку. Ломтик ветчины - обычной нарезки.
Шоколада - кусочек. Кусок - остаток плитки, от которой можно отламывать кусочки.
Торта - кусок. То же - остаток целого торта, который еще можно поделить на кусочки.
Сыра - ломтик (если сыр - нарезанный), иначе - кусок, кусочек, который еще можно нарезать.

Лимона - кружок (есле резать кружками), может быть и ломтик. Кусок лимона - то, что остается от начатого лимона.


----------



## rusita preciosa

eni8ma said:


> Are there several words for slice - depending on what it is a slice of? or do you generally not use a particular word for slice, and just use кусок (or кусочек)? Perhaps the distinctions would be made using verbs instead?


I'd say for "slice":
cake, meat, cheese - кусок/кусочек 
bread - ломоть/ломтик (although ломоть can also be a bigger piece of bread torn not sliced), but кусок/кусочек works too
lemon, orange - долька, but кусок/кусочек works too


----------



## morzh

rusita preciosa said:


> кусочек масла - *dob* of butter (also "some butter"?)



Are you sure it's not "gob"?


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Are you sure it's not "gob"?


I wrote that, morzh, 





eni8ma said:


> кусочек масла - dob of butter (also "some butter"?)


and yes, a small amount of butter is a dob.  Approximately a spoonful - but not a large spoonful  It is only a dob if it remains a small "lump"; if it is spread, it (generally) ceases to be a dob (although you can still say "but I only used a dob of butter"). 

For example, in this recipe for cooking apples. Put a dob of butter on the top of each apple.


----------



## eni8ma

rusita preciosa said:


> bread - ломоть/ломтик (although ломоть can also be a bigger piece of bread torn not sliced), but кусок/кусочек works too


So ломтик is the diminutive of ломоть, just as кусочек is of кусок ... because of the ик/ек су́ффикс


----------



## morzh

Is this some local Aussie/British thing? I cannot even find it in dictionaries, but I do find it in some forums with ".au" extension? 
"Gob" I've heard, and it means "a large size ".

Actually, a "dollop" is a good word - means "a decent size piece of....". "Dollop of sour cream".


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> So ломтик is the diminutive of ломоть, just as кусочек is of кусок ... because of the ик/ек су́ффикс



Yes, "ломтик" is dim. of "ломоть", but it does not always mean "a small ломоть". That it, it does, but.....
It depends whether something that can be cut into pieces, may be cut both in large and small slices.

For example, "ломтик лимона" - a lemon slice. A lemon cannot be cut in large slices, so it is always "ломтик" and never "ломоть". Same with all other smaller/smallish fruits.
A thicker cut "wedge of lemon" is still "ломтик".
A lemon also can be separated into "дольки" (segments).

(In turn. "долька" may mean "segment" for orange, but "clove" for garlic. )

But then bread can be cut into both "ломтики" и "ломти". Ломоть - a regular slice. Ломтик - a small one.


----------



## eni8ma

rusita preciosa said:


> I was imagining sugar cube as this:
> and sugar lump as this (less common in Russia, but not unusual):
> Both could be кусок сахара or кусочек сахара.


I've never seen actual lumps of sugar like that.  That picture surprised me.   I doubt that "one lump or two" was refering to irregular shaped lumps though.


----------



## morzh

Wow! Don't tell me - Aussies don't have sugar cubes! This is what overabundance of kangaroos does to people! 
Cubed sugar is sold here. In regular stores. I think they sell it for Russians only. One probably has to produce some sort of birth certificate to buy one. 

On a serious note: actually, in the time of yore the sugar was sold in "головы" (literally - heads), or a "sugarloaf".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugarloaf


BTW a good example of how 'loaf" means different things when used towards different objects, like bread (rus. - буханка) and sugar (голова).


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Is this some local Aussie/British thing? I cannot even find it in dictionaries, but I do find it in some forums with ".au" extension?


You may be right  When I checked dob in the online dictionary, it just said "date of birth"   Even my thick, heavy Oxford dictionary only lists "dob - Australian - to inform against" with no other meanings.  I bought that dictionary because I thought it would list all manner of words, even unusual ones.  Anyhow, a dob is smaller than a dollop


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Wow! Don't tell me - Aussies don't have sugar cubes!


We _do_ have cubes - it is the lumps I was refering to.  They are such irregular sizes. 





morzh said:


> On a serious note: actually, in the time of yore the sugar was sold in "головы" (literally - heads), or a "sugarloaf".


I never knew that about sugar.  That explains Sugarloaf Mountain in Rio de Janeiro.


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Yes, "ломтик" is dim. of "ломоть", but it does not always mean "a small ломоть". That it, it does, but.....
> It depends whether something that can be cut into pieces, may be cut both in large and small slices.
> ...
> (In turn. "долька" may mean "segment" for orange, but "clove" for garlic. )


That's interesting - thanks.


----------



## morzh

eni8ma said:


> We _do_ have cubes - it is the lumps I was refering to.  They are such irregular sizes. I never knew that about sugar.  That explains Sugarloaf Mountain in Rio de Janeiro.



Yes, actually, "Sugarloaf" is extremely popular name here, in the US - I see it as streetnames, resort names, etc. So then 20 some years ago when I saw it and decided to see what it was, I was surprised too.


----------



## morzh

http://www.google.com/search?q=lump...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=804

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lump+sugar


Lump sugar means also "sugar cubes".

Note: actually, in Russia (I don't know if it is still in existence today) the cubed sugar came in two varieties: 1 - your typical lumped sugar, that is actually, I think is a pressed refined sugar. You can see it by it's crystalline consistency (most of the photos show it) - it looks like regular granulated sugar pressed into cubes., and 2 - so called "пилёный сахар", sugar cubes that do not show the crystalline consistency as the crystals are very fine. It was cut from the loaf into cubes (hence "пилёный" - sawed, cut with a saw from the loaf.) Those are larger, about an inch wide, and are very hard.

BTW what your photo with brown sugar lumps showed I think, was not the lumped sugar, but just a large piece of brown sugar torn into smaller pieces. Brown (cane) sugar sold here is almost always a one lump mass but it is soft, moist and is easily formed or torn into pieces,and so they are irregular.


----------



## eni8ma

Rosett said:


> Кусок мыла может быть целым. Обмылок - это то, что остается от целого куска, когда тот подходит к концу. Он же может быть кусочком.


Спасибо, сейчас я понимаю.



Rosett said:


> Шоколада - кусочек. Кусок - остаток плитки, от которой можно отламывать кусочки.
> ...
> Лимона - кружок (есле резать кружками), может быть и ломтик. Кусок лимона - то, что остается от начатого лимона.


Gotcha  Сейчас, име́ет смы́сл.


----------



## eni8ma

morzh said:


> Lump sugar means also "sugar cubes".


Yes.





eni8ma said:


> rusita preciosa said:
> 
> 
> 
> кусок сахара or кусочек сахара – normally, sugar cube , but I guess it could be "lump" too
> 
> 
> 
> People sometimes refer to sugar cubes as lumps - "one lump, or two?".
Click to expand...


----------



## morzh

Here's one more word for "slice/piece" for you: "шматок / шмат".
Used mostly (not only) towards something that may be cut by a thick slice, or a fairly sizeable piece.
Шмат сала, шмат мяса, шмат хлеба.


----------



## Natalisha

morzh said:


> Here's one more word for "slice/piece" for you: "шматок / шмат".
> Used mostly (not only) towards something that may be cut by a thick slice, or a fairly sizeable piece.
> Шмат сала, шмат мяса, шмат хлеба.


Isn't this word Ukrainian/Belarusian? I have strong associations with 'сало', too.  But no associations with 'мясо'.


----------



## eni8ma

For now, I am happy with кусо́к/кусо́чек, ломоть/ло́мтик, до́лька, кружо́к

кусо́к/кусо́чек - piece of (чесно́к, лимо́на, апельси́на, хлеба, сыра, ветчины, мя́са, торта, шоколада, масла, сахара, мыла, древесины)
ломоть/ло́мтик - thick/thin slice/piece of (хлеба, сыра, ветчины)
ло́мтик/кружо́к - slice of (лимо́на, апельси́на, any citrus fruit) (кружо́к - circles)
до́лька - segment/clove of (лимо́на, апельси́на, чесно́к)

кусо́к мыла - bar of soap
кусо́чек мыла - piece of soap (обмылок)

My mother used to cut soap in half, then let it dry out, to make it last longer.
Она бы режет кусок мыла из двух кусочков.


----------



## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> Она бы режет кусок мыла из двух кусочков.


Она режет кусок мыла на два куска/кусочка.

she used tо cut - она раньше *резала*


----------



## eni8ma

Natalisha said:


> Она режет кусок мыла на два куска/кусочка.
> 
> she used tо cut - она раньше *резала*


Thanks - I was not aiming for a direct translation of my first sentence.  1. She used to cut ... 2. She would cut ...
Does "Она бы режет" say "she would cut"?


----------



## Natalisha

eni8ma said:


> Thanks - I was not aiming for a direct translation of my first sentence.  1. She used to cut ... 2. She would cut ...
> Does "Она бы режет" say "she would cut"?



No. 'Would' has several meanings. I think you are talking about the second conditional (Моя мама разр*е*зала бы этот кусок мыла на два кусочка.)

But if you mean _would=used to_, you should use the past form of the verb '(раз)резать', which is '(раз)рез*а*ла'.


----------



## eni8ma

Natalisha said:


> Моя мама разрезала бы этот кусок мыла на два кусочка.


Спасибо


----------



## morzh

Natalisha said:


> Isn't this word Ukrainian/Belarusian? I have strong associations with 'сало', too.  But no associations with 'мясо'.



No, it is not only theirs (I take your word for it - my Ukrainian is at a bad Kuban surzhik level)

*Значение слова шмат*

*Новый толково-словообразовательный словарь русского языка. Автор Т. Ф. Ефремова.*

*шмат*  м. разг.-сниж.  То же, что: шматок.​ *Орфографический словарь*

*шмат*  шмат, -а​ *Толковый словарь В.И.Даля*

*ШМАТ*, шматок м. южн. зап. пск. твер.  тамб. кус или кусок, ломоть; часть, отрезок, отрывок; иногда расстоянье.  Шмат, шматина хлеба, мяса. Шматочек свиного сала. Собака из полы целый  шмат вырвала. Порядочный шмат прошли. Шерсть сходит шматьями. Шмотье ср.  перм. лохмотье. Шматовать что, южн. рвать, резать на части.​----------------------------
*Значение слова шматок*

*Новый толково-словообразовательный словарь русского языка. Автор Т. Ф. Ефремова.*

*шматок*  м. разг.-сниж.  Кусок, лоскут, сгусток.​ *Орфографический словарь*

*шматок*  шмат`ок, -тк`а​ *Толковый словарь под ред. C. И. Ожегова и Н.Ю.Шведовой*

*ШМАТОК*, -тка,л<.  (прост.). Кусок  (чего-н,  отломанного, отрезанного),ломоть. Ш. сала.мяса.​ *Толковый словарь русского языка под ред. Д. Н. Ушакова*

*ШМАТОК*  шматка, м. (от польск. szmat -  Кусок) (простореч.). Кусок, лоскут, сгусток. Шматок сала. Откинулся на  спину, глухо кашляя и выплевывая изо рта целые шматки крови. М. Горький.​


----------



## Rosett

eni8ma said:


> Спасибо, сейчас я понимаю.
> 
> Gotcha  Сейчас, име́ет смы́сл.


Спасибо, теперь понятно.
Смысл теперь ясен.


----------



## Natalisha

morzh said:


> No, it is not only theirs (I take your word for it - my Ukrainian is at a bad Kuban surzhik level)
> 
> *Значение слова шмат*
> 
> *Новый толково-словообразовательный словарь русского языка. Автор Т. Ф. Ефремова.**шмат* м. разг.-сниж. То же, что: шматок.​*Орфографический словарь**шмат* шмат, -а​*Толковый словарь В.И.Даля**ШМАТ*, шматок м. южн. зап. пск. твер. тамб. кус или кусок, ломоть; часть, отрезок, отрывок; иногда расстоянье. Шмат, шматина хлеба, мяса. Шматочек свиного сала. Собака из полы целый шмат вырвала. Порядочный шмат прошли. Шерсть сходит шматьями. Шмотье ср. перм. лохмотье. Шматовать что, южн. рвать, резать на части.​----------------------------
> *Значение слова шматок*
> 
> *Новый толково-словообразовательный словарь русского языка. Автор Т. Ф. Ефремова.**шматок* м. разг.-сниж. Кусок, лоскут, сгусток.​*Орфографический словарь**шматок* шмат`ок, -тк`а​*Толковый словарь под ред. C. И. Ожегова и Н.Ю.Шведовой**ШМАТОК*, -тка,л<. (прост.). Кусок (чего-н, отломанного, отрезанного),ломоть. Ш. сала.мяса.​*Толковый словарь русского языка под ред. Д. Н. Ушакова**ШМАТОК* шматка, м. (от польск. szmat - Кусок) (простореч.). Кусок, лоскут, сгусток. Шматок сала. Откинулся на спину, глухо кашляя и выплевывая изо рта целые шматки крови. М. Горький.​


Thank you, Morzh! I should have looked up the word myself before asking this stupid question.


----------

