# 대사구두부내향



## moondeer

Hi again--trying to wrap up my translation. I think I only have 1 question left. 

How would you translate "대사구두부내향" (大舍求豆腐來餉), which is the title of a poem in Yi Saek's 목은집. (First mention of tofu in a text in Korea, according to the article I'm working on.)
I'm embarrassed I might be way off, but based on looking up the vocab (using hanja), 대사 seems to mean a 12th-rank official (although it said this was in the Silla dynasty, which is way before the time Yi Saek wrote this poem, so does it apply?). Then 구 means "seek;" we know 두부; and naver couldn't give me anything for 내향. Separately they mean "next" and probably "meal." So, "A 12th-rank official seeks his next tofu dinner." (I see the "12th-rank official" as a humble way of referring to himself, maybe.) Is that crazy? Here's the poem: “나물죽도 오래 먹으니 맛이 없는데, 두부가 새로운 맛을 돋우어 주어 늙은 몸이 양생하기 더없이 좋다.…” Actually, this is different wording (found this on dubulab.com and cut and pasted it) than what I have in my article: "나물국 오래 먹어 맛을 못 느껴 두부가 새로운 맛을 돋우어 주네. 이 없는 사람 먹기 좋고 늙은 몸 양생에 더없이 알맞다." (I like the latter version much better--I guess the former is just a paraphrase! But that's irrelevant.)


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## Yong Jo

1. 大舍 might mean 大師(Buddhist master) in this context when referring to the text "늙은 몸(old body).
2. 來餉 may mean 양생(curing by eating foods),
3. "대사구두부내향"(大舍求豆腐來餉) may be translated as A great Buddhist monk seeks tofu for curing.


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## moondeer

Hi, Yong Jo. Thanks for your reply. I'll take it into consideration. 

One question: how could 來餉 mean 양생 if the characters are read as 내향? Am I missing something?

Thanks, I appreciate your help!


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## Yong Jo

moondeer said:


> Hi, Yong Jo. Thanks for your reply. I'll take it into consideration.
> 
> One question: how could 來餉 mean 양생 if the characters are read as 내향? Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks, I appreciate your help!


As I noted above, 來餉 may mean 양생(curing by eating foods) in consideration of 이 없는 사람 먹기 좋고 늙은 몸 양생에 더없이 알맞다.
The general meaning of 來餉 is related to feeding others; for example, feeding soldiers and etc. But in the context of the poem, the speaker who is old aged feeds tofu himself and which is good for curing his old body.


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## moondeer

Thanks!


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## mink-shin

moondeer said:


> How would you translate "대사구두부내향" (大舍求豆腐來餉), which is the title of a poem in Yi Saek's 목은집. (First mention of tofu in a text in Korea, according to the article I'm working on.)


大舍(대사) could mean either _the house of the eldest son of a family _or _a buddhist monk. _I wasn't sure which one could make more sense. That's why I had to do some research. I could find two versions of interpretation of its title by googling.
One interprets 大舍 as the house of the eldest son of a family.
"_큰집에서 두부를 구해와서 먹다_", which means _Yi Saek _has got some tofu from the house of his eldest brother(I believe _his brother_ must be the better choice than _son of his family_ considering 老身.) and eats it.
(There is no word referring to "Yi Saek". But I think that if 大舍 meant the house of the eldest son of a family, Yi Saek would be implied as the subject of 求, which means _to_ _get _in this case, in the title.)
The other version interprets 大舍 as a buddhist monk.
"_대사가 두부를 구해와서 먹이다_", which means a buddhist monk who has got some tofu feeds Yi Saek some tofu.
(There is no word referring to "Yi Saek". But I think that if 大舍 meant a buddhist monk, Yi Saek would be implied as the object of 餉, which means _to_ _feed _in this case, in the title.)
Both interpretations work for me. I prefer the former, _"큰집에서 두부를 구해와서 먹다",_ though. _If there had been either 於, 于 or 乎, which could mean from(에서), like 求豆腐於大舍來餉, I could definitely be sure that the first one is correct_. _But, because there isn't any of them, I think we have to be open to possibilities. Or maybe there's a fair chance 大舍 refers to his eldest brother._


moondeer said:


> I'm embarrassed I might be way off, but based on looking up the vocab (using hanja), 대사 seems to mean a 12th-rank official (although it said this was in the Silla dynasty, which is way before the time Yi Saek wrote this poem, so does it apply?).


I don't agree.



moondeer said:


> Then 구 means "seek;" we know 두부; and naver couldn't give me anything for 내향. Separately they mean "next" and probably "meal."


Not only does 來(내) have the adjectival meaning _next_, but also it has the verbal meaning _to_ _come (back)_. I think this 來(내) in the poem you've quoted has the verbal meaning _to come_. 餉 could mean _meal_ as you said. But it also could mean _to_ _feed. _Honestly_, _I'm pretty sure that 來 means _to come_. Hence I cannot help myself being convinced that 餉 means _to feed _rather than_ meal_.  To me, 來餉 means _to come back to his house and eat it _when 大舍 means _the house of the eldest son of a family, _and means_ to come to and feed Yi-Saek_ when 大舍 means _a buddhist monk.
_


moondeer said:


> Here's the poem: “나물죽도 오래 먹으니 맛이 없는데, 두부가 새로운 맛을 돋우어 주어 늙은 몸이 양생하기 더없이 좋다.…” Actually, this is different wording (found this on dubulab.com and cut and pasted it) than what I have in my article: "나물국 오래 먹어 맛을 못 느껴 두부가 새로운 맛을 돋우어 주네. 이 없는 사람 먹기 좋고 늙은 몸 양생에 더없이 알맞다." (I like the latter version much better--I guess the former is just a paraphrase! But that's irrelevant.)



I'd had my own opinion but I had to read the poem to be sure.



> 大舍求豆腐來餉 - 牧隱 李穡
> 
> 菜羹無味久
> 豆腐截肪新
> 便見宜疎齒
> 眞堪養老身



Having read the poem, I'm also more happier with the latter one. But the reason isn't the same with yours. Though I don't know why exactly, I just feel more happier with the latter.

There are some rules of reading 漢詩. Let me introduce one of them. -Because I cannot explain why I'm more happier with the latter one, I'm going to tell you how I understand the poem.- When you read a quatrain with five Chinese characters in each line, you should pause after reading first two characters in each line.

So here's my interpretation and translation of it into English.

菜羹/無味久
채솟국이 / 맛이 없는 지 오래라
Vegetable soup / has tasted bad since a long time ago. (I guess Yi-Saek was fed up of vegetable soup)
豆腐/截肪新
두부가 / 썰은 지방처럼 새롭구나
Tofu / has a new taste like meat. (It's because meat was a rarity in the Koryo dynasty period.)
便見/宜疎齒
편히 보인다 / 마땅히 성긴 이를 가진이에
It(tofu) seems to be okay for someone who has teeth sparsely to eat.
眞堪/養老身
참으로 훌륭하다 / 늙은 몸을 봉양할 만큼
It's so good enough to support [old men's bodies/my old body]. (I think 老 could refer to either _old men in general _or _Yi-Saek_.)


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## Dunno Jack

Hi moonder - I saw your question on another thread (it's been deleted).

I guess we're all stuck on 大舍. I'm not knowledgeable about Hanja or Chinese poems so the following is based on my Wiki search and a quick survey of two people (!) who may know this kind of stuff.

大舍

1. the title of *a low rank official* in Shilla dynasty: As you said, this specific title is before Yi's time. It also looks like he held titles that were much higher up. While it's plausible that he was being humble but I wonder why he had to borrow a title from the bygone era.

2. *big house* (literal meaning): It doesn't flow with the rest of the poem.

3. *Yi's oldest son*: Now, this is from an older gentleman who has read Yi's other works. He said Yi called his oldest son 大舍 in another poem. I think this interpretation makes most sense:

_My oldest son (大舍) got tofu (求豆腐) and came by (來) for a meal (餉).
Or,
My oldest son brought me some tofu.
_
Again, I'm not really qualified to string these letters into the exact sentence Yi meant but I think the main idea is that his oldest son brought some tofu (for him to eat).

* I just realized that we still use the word 큰집 (big house) to refer to the household of the oldest in the family (oldest son, big uncle, etc.) or members from that household. So #2 and #3 are definitely related. I think it's reasonable to assume that Yi did call his son (이종학) 大舍.


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## Yong Jo

Dunno Jack said:


> Hi moonder - I saw your question on another thread (it's been deleted).
> 
> I guess we're all stuck on 大舍. I'm not knowledgeable about Hanja or Chinese poems so the following is based on my Wiki search and a quick survey of two people (!) who may know this kind of stuff.
> 
> 大舍
> 
> 1. the title of *a low rank official* in Shilla dynasty: As you said, this specific title is before Yi's time. It also looks like he held titles that were much higher up. It's a convincing idea that he might be trying to be humble but I'm not quite sure why he had to use a title from the bygone era.
> 
> 2. *big house* (literal meaning): It doesn't flow with the rest of the poem.
> 
> 3. *Yi's oldest son*: Now, this is from an older gentleman who has read Yi's other works. He said Yi called his oldest son 大舍 in another poem. I think this interpretation makes most sense:
> 
> _My oldest son (大舍) got tofu (求豆腐) and came by (來) for a meal (餉).
> Or,
> My oldest son brought me some tofu.
> _
> Again, I'm not 100% sure.


Good. Your expert note must be respectful!


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