# Mujer Moderna / Modern Woman



## rainbow

MUJER MODERNA

Son las 6,00 hs. a.m. El despertador no para de sonar y no tengo fuerzas ni para tirarlo contra la pared. Estoy acabada. No querría tener que ir al trabajo hoy. Quiero quedarme en casa, cocinando, escuchando música, cantando, etc. Si tuviera un perro, lo pasearía por los alrededores. Todo menos salir de la cama, meter primera y poner el cerebro a funcionar.

ME GUSTARÍA SABER QUIÉN FUE LA BRUJA, LA MATRIZ DE LAS FEMINISTAS QUE TUVO LA INFELIZ IDEA DE REIVINDICAR LOS DERECHOS DE LA MUJER Y POR QUÉ HIZO ESO CON NOSOTRAS QUE NACIMOS DESPUÉS DE ELLA.

Estaba todo tan bien en el tiempo de nuestras abuelas, ellas pasaban todo el día bordando, intercambiando recetas con sus amigas, enseñándose mutuamente secretos de condimentos, tucos, remedios caseros, leyendo buenos libros de las bibliotecas de sus maridos, decorando la casa, podando árboles, plantando flor es, recogiendo legumbres de las huertas y educando a sus hijos. La vida era un gran curso de artesanos, medicina alternativa y cocina.

HASTA QUE VINO UNA FULANITA CUALQUIERA QUE NO LE GUSTABA EL CORPIÑO Y CONTAMINA A VARIAS OTRAS INCONSECUENTES REBELDES CON IDEAS RARAS SOBRE "VAMOS A CONQUISTAR NUESTRO ESPACIO". ¡QUE ESPACIO NI QUE NADA! 
Ya teníamos la casa entera, todo el barrio, el mundo a nuestros pies.
Teníamos el dominio completo sobre los hombres; ellos dependían de nosotras para comer, vestirse y para hacerse ver delante de sus amigos; ¿qué rayos de derechos quiso brindarnos? Ahora ellos están confundidos,no saben qué papel desempeñan en la sociedad, HUYEN DE NOSOTRAS COMO EL DIABLO DE LA CRUZ. Ese chiste, esa gracia, acabó llenándonos de deberes.
Y lo peor de todo, acabó lanzándonos dentro del calabozo DE LA SOLTERÍA AGUDA. Antiguamente, los casamientos duraban para siempre.
¿Por qué, díganme por qué, un sexo que tenía todo lo mejor, que sólo necesitaba ser frágil y dejarse guiar por la vida, comenzó a competir con los machos?
MIREN EL TAMAÑO DEL BÍCEPS DE ELLOS Y MIREN EL TAMAÑO DEL NUESTRO. ESTABA CANTADO, ESO NO IBA A TERMINAR BIEN.
No aguanto más ser obligada al ritual diario de estar flaca como una escoba pero con tetas y cola paradas, para lo cual tengo que matarme en el gimnasio además de morir de hambre, pasarme hidratantes, antiarrugas y demás armas para no caer vencida por la vejez, maquillarme impecablemente cada mañana desde la frente al escote, tener el pelo impecable y no atrasarme con la tintura que las canas son peor que la lepra, elegir bien la ropa, los zapatos y los accesorios, no sea que no esté presentable para esa reunión de trabajo. No me banco más tener que decidir qué perfume combina con mi humor, ni tener que salir corriendo para quedarme embotellada en el tránsito y tener que resolver la mitad de las cosas por el celular, correr el riesgo de ser asaltada, de morir embe stida, instalarme todo el día frente a la PC laburando como una esclava (moderna, claro), con un teléfono en el oído y resolviendo problemas uno detrás de otro, para salir con los ojos rojos (por el monitor, claro, para llorar de amor no hay tiempo). Estamos pagando el precio por estar siempre en forma, sin estrías, depiladas, sonrientes, perfumadas, uñas perfectas, sin hablar del currículum impecable, lleno de maestrías, doctorados y especialidades.
NOS VOLVIMOS "SÚPER MUJERES" ... PERO SEGUIMOS GANANDO MENOS QUE ELLOS. ¿No era mejor, mucho mejor seguir tejiendo en la silla mecedora? 
¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡BASTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quiero que alguien me abra la puerta para que pueda pasar, que corra la silla cuando me voy a sentar, que me mande flores, cartitas con poesías, que me dé serenatas en la ventana.
Si nosotras ya sabíamos que teníamos un cerebro y que lo podíamos usar.
Para quééééé había que demostrarselo a ellos??????
Ay Dios mío, son las 6:30 am y tengo que levantarme... ¡que fría está esta solitaria y grandísima cama!
Ahhh ... quiero otra vez que mi maridito llegue del trabajo, que se siente en el sofá y diga:
MI AMOR, ¿NO ME TRAERÍAS UN WHISKY POR FAVOR? o... ¿QUÉ HAY DE CENAR?
porque descubrí que es mucho mejor servirle una cena casera que atragantarme con un sandwich y una gaseosa mientras termino el trabajo que me traje a casa.
¿Piensan que estoy ironizando? no, mis queridas colegas, inteligentes, realizadas, liberadas . . .y 
abandonadas.
ESTOY HABLANDO MUY SERIAMENTE.
ESTOY ABDICANDO DE MI PUESTO DE MUJER MODERNA.
¿ALGUIEN MÁS SE SUMA??????????


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## Narda

Yo, estoy totalmente de acuerdo con Rainbow.  Estoy agotada, si no estuviera trabajando estaría ahora con mi maridito en Las Bahamas o cuidando mi adorado y añorado jardín.  El trabaja allá.  La semana pasada que estuvo aquí, era yo la que estaba de viaje.  Tenemos muchísimos años de casados, pero todavía nos hacemos falta.  Yo digo, ESTO NO ES VIDA!!


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## rainbow

Hi, 

Here is the translation for those friends who don't handle Spanish Language as Zebedee asked me to do it - Please bear in mind that I'm not a Translator, just did my best. If somebody can ameliorate it I will be grateful. 

Modern woman

It is 6 a.m.
The alarm clock is still ringing and I have no stamina enough not even to throw it against the wall. I’m burnt out. I don't want to go to work today. I want to stay at home, cooking, listening to the music, singing or whatever, instead. If only I had a pet dog, I could take it for a walk in the outskirts. Anything but getting out of bed, getting in first gear, and putting the brain to work.
I would like to know who the “witch” (old hag) was, the matrix of feminists, the one who had that unfortunate idea about recovering women's rights. Why has she done this to us, the ones who were born after her.
Everything was going so well with our grandmas, they used to embroider all day long, they used to exchange recipes with their friends, sharing secrets on sauces and homemade medicines, they used to read good books from their husbands' libraries, trimming trees, gardening, bringing up children. Life used to be a great whirl of handicrafts, alternative medicine and cuisine.

So until a so-called Jane Doe came along, the one who didn’t like brassieres, corrupting lot of unstable rebels with weird ideas about “Let’s go to conquer our own place”. What place for God’s sake!
We had the entire house, the whole neighborhood, the world was ours.
We used to have the control over men. They depended on us to eat, to dress, to show us to their friends. What are the rights that Jane Doe wanted to offer us?
So now men are confused, they no longer know what rôle to play in society. They run away from us as the devil runs away from a crucifix. That witticism, that joke has smothered us in obligations. And worst of all, it has thrown us in the dungeon of singlehood. In the old days marriages lasted for ever.
So why, tell me why the sex who used to have it all and the very best, whose only obligation was to behave fragile and to accept to be led along in life, suddenly started to compete with males?
Just look at their biceps! Compared with ours! It's obvious this could never end up well.
I cannot stand anymore the daily ritual of having to be as thin as a rake but with perky breasts and ass, for which I have to work out in the gym every day, as well as die of starvation, smother myself in moisturisers, anti-wrinkle creams and other weapons so as not to be defeated by old age, make myself up impeccably from forehead to cleavage every day before going to work, keep my hair immaculate and dye it as soon as the first grey hair - worse than leprosy - makes its appearance. To choose carefully my clothes, my shoes and my accessories so they combine perfectly to attend that meeting. I can't handle choosing which perfume suits my mood, leaving in a rush only to find myself stuck in traffic and ending up sorting half the things out by cellphone, running the risk of being mugged, sitting all day long in front of the PC, working like a slave (of course a modern one) with a phone in the ear, facing a stream of problems one after another, to finish the day with red strained eyes (because of the PC of course, there is no time to cry about love).
We are paying the price for always being in shape, stretchmark-free, perfumed, smiling, perfect nails, perfect curriculum vitaes full of masters, Ph D’s and specializations. WE'VE BECOME SUPER-WOMEN AND OUR SALARIES ARE STILL LOWER THAN THEIRS. Wasn’t it better, much better when we were knitting in the rocking chair?
ENOUGH!!!!!!!
I want somebody who opens the door for me, who sets the chair for me to sit down, who sends me flowers, who writes me poetry, who serenades me at my window.
We knew that we had brains and we were aware of how to use them. What did we need to show that to them for?
Gosh, 6:30 a.m. and I have to get up soon. This bed is so cold & lonely!
I wish I had a hubby who comes in from work, who sits on the sofa and says: “Sweetheart, could you please bring me a whisky? What’s for soup?"
I've found out that it is better to serve him a homemade soup than to choke on a sandwich and a soft drink while finishing the work I brought home from the office.
Do you thing I’m joking? No my dear friends, colleagues, smart, performed, liberated and abandoned ones.
I’m being serious. I’m giving up my position of modern woman. Anyone else?


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## Phryne

As a joke, it is funny, but in real life I could not disagree more. 

It's very easy to romanticize and claim that women used to be at home enjoying life. Please!!! We had no rights, no vote, no words; we were merely men’s accessories and sadly, we couldn't even choose our spouses! In some cases we had no right to education, or the ability to do basic things such as walk alone on the streets, at certain times, in certain places. Our chores were to raise kids and stay home all day to clean and cook. We were worker with no wages.

Sorry, but I love to work, study and be treated as a person whose opinion is worth something.

Saludos


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## rainbow

Phryne said:
			
		

> As a joke, it is funny, but in real life I could not disagree more.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I love to work, study and be treated as a person whose opinion is worth something.
> 
> Saludos


 
So do I, it was a joke and it was sent me as a joke and as a joke I posted it.


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## Rosa Maria

Pienso en como era la vida antes,  a las mujeres no se les permitía pensar demasiado, no teniamos ni voz ni voto, el mundo era de los hombres!!! encerradas en nuestras casas cuidando de los niños, sirviendo al marido, todas unas perfectas amas de casa, mientras que el hombre, el hombre que? el hombre trabajaba, y hacía su doble vida fuera del aposento marital. era justo eso? no verdad?

Claro, confieso que me encantaría dejar de trabajar y ser mantenida por un hombre, si, no me parece mala idea, pero si me dieran a escoger entre esos tiempos y los actuales me quedo con los actuales, donde soy libre, y no me retraigo de hacer muchas cosas solo por ser mujer.


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## VenusEnvy

Wow, what an excerpt. Very powerful stuff. I find it too politically charged to be very funny. 

I agree with you Phryne. I, too, value my accomplishments. I like work, I like school. But, you know, it's discouraging knowing that although I have put myself through college and am graduating with a 3.8 GPA, although I have worked for so long, and put forth so much effort to get where I am, I will STILL be paid 25% less than a man, all things being equal. Compared to other women, I'm happy with where I am. But, compared to other "people", I had hoped for better things. 

However, I'd love to stay at home, take care of my home, my children (we're talking future here), live a happy life in my space. But, if that means giving up my personal freedoms, I'll pass.

It definitely feels like a catch 22 at times. I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't.


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## Phryne

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Wow, what an excerpt. Very powerful stuff. I find it too politically charged to find very funny.
> 
> I agree with you Phryne. I, too, value my accomplishments. I like work, I like school. But, you know, it's discouraging knowing that although I have put myself through college and am graduating with a 3.8 GPA, although I have worked for so long, and put forth so much effort to get where I am, I will STILL be paid 25% less than a man, all things being equal. Compared to other women, I'm happy with where I am. But, compared to other "people", I had hoped for better things.
> 
> However, I'd love to stay at home, take care of my home, my children (we're talking future here), live a happy life in my space. But, if that means giving up my personal freedoms, I'll pass.


 Hi Venus,
I feel the same way. I find the joke a little too insulting. Although it's funny, I can't joke about the 25% less pay (as you stated) and other discriminatory things we have to deal with everyday. PMS, “mood swings”, any of those so-called feminine attributes that in my opinion are basically more discrimination under the veil.

Recently I read about a study that says that even though most American women consider their family to be their first priority, they tend to work extra hours but not for monetary issues. Apparently they have the “need” to be at work in order to enjoy their family life. You can draw your own conclusions…




> It definitely feels like a catch 22 at times. I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't.


 I suggest you take some time off, if you can. You’ll see that what you wish now, it’s no picnic at all.

saludos


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## Citrus

I feel Phryne and VenusEnvy have just spelled my thoughts. Any way I have to get them out of my system. 

When I think of the way things used to be for my grandmothers . . . Jesus!!! It was terrible . . .

I can't imagine staying at home all day . . . I would probably loose my mind!!!
I find work and school so satisfactory, I feel productive, useful and HAPPY.

And to think that this situation is not on the past at all!!! There are so many women living like that everyday in the "actual" world we live in.

Uff!!! It feels good to have let that out!!!  Thanks for hearing me out!!!

Regards
Citrus


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## Artrella

I don't like to be at home all day long, I need to study, to learn anything, to feel myself productive, to keep my brain busy!!!
However, it seems that for us , women, the only way to do that is to have a hectic schedule where our kids or family are not included.  
As the woman in that article says, we have to be "beautiful" and have to be mothers, wives, teachers, executives, whatever.  
I have to be a teacher, I have to be a student, a mother, an accountant, have to go to the gym...God!!!... this is a race instead of a life!!!
But I don't want to be a houswife so this is the price I have to pay...
Sometimes, when I'm rushing from school to work, from work to collect my kids from the club, and then watching desperately at the clock at the hairdresser's because hubby will come home and dinner is not ready....well, then, it is in those moments when I miss my Grannie's times...
There was peace then.  

So my question is, do we have to resign peace in order to be "modern women"... so far it seems we have to... and that is not fair for anyone, for us or for our families...


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## Citrus

I think all we need is to get organized.

Part of being a "modern woman" is being able to do all that stuff. Being able to do a millions things a day. It's a very difficult task, but I've seen some women that do it. 

I do belive that if you have to do 5 (for example) diferent activities in one day the best thing you can do is enjoy each one while it last instead of worrying about the next one and get lost in what you're doing.

And, I also belive that you can find peace in your "modern" life as a "modern woman". It depends on what you want to do with your time, yuor priorities.

Regards
Citrus


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## Phryne

Artrella said:
			
		

> So my question is, do we have to resign peace in order to be "modern women"... so far it seems we have to... and that is not fair for anyone, for us or for our families...



I think the bottom line of all these is that we are not completely freed yet! Why do we have to take care of our kids 24/7? Why is it taking our kids to the club always our responsibility? Why is it us the one who has to cook? Why do we have to look fantastic (although this applies for both genders)? If were completely independent, we would share our chores with our hubbies. For instance, in my house I’m not the one who does do the cooking! 



 saludos feministas


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## Artrella

Phryne said:
			
		

> I think the bottom line of all these is that we are not completely freed yet! Why do we have to take care of our kids 24/7? Why is it taking our kids to the club always our responsibility? Why is it us the one who has to cook? Why do we have to look fantastic (although this applies for both genders)? If were completely independent, we would share our chores with our hubbies. For instance, in my house I’m not the one who does do the cooking!
> saludos feministas




Well, I don't cook either...  ... but have to prepare it, lay the table...  
What is to be free?? Who is in charge of "freeing" women??
Well, as regards taking kids to the club... hubby is not here at home... so when I can I do it myself...when I'm not at home my employee does it...she cooks and picks the kids up... but no way hubby can do that, he is in the office..you know that here in Argentina office timetables take all day long....

*........."our * chores".... whose chores??.......why *ours*???


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## Phryne

Artrella said:
			
		

> What is to be free?? Who is in charge of "freeing" women??


 You get nothing for free. It is us! 


> *........."our * chores".... whose chores??.......why *ours*???


Da** right you are! It was a Freudian slip.  See my point? Definitely not freed.. 
Funny to say, in my house, nobody does anything, not me, not him. So please don't ever stop by without calling.


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## Eiryn

Hi. I totally agree with regards to the comments about the inequality against women that still continues, even today.
But I also think it shouldn't be forgotten that not *all* men had it so easy in the past (or even now).
Where I live, for example, most of the men of my grandfather's generation (and the generations before that) worked in mines or factories, usually for more than 12 hours every day, and almost always with extremely poor pay.
In the two world wars of the 20th century, *millions* of young men died in sometimes totally futile battles.
There are some towns near here where, during the first world war, almost the *entire* adult male population was killed.
I don't think we should forget those people, just in the same way we shouldn't forget the women (like the Suffragettes in England, for example), who fought for the freedoms we have today.


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## zebedee

Phryne said:
			
		

> We had no rights, no vote, no words; we were merely men’s accessories and sadly, we couldn't even choose our spouses! In some cases we had no right to education, or the ability to do basic things such as walk alone on the streets, at certain times, in certain places. Our chores were to raise kids and stay home all day to clean and cook. We were worker with no wages.
> 
> Sorry, but I love to work, study and be treated as a person whose opinion is worth something.
> 
> Saludos


 
Have things really changed that much for us though? Yes, we have a right to education now and we can choose who we want to marry but we still can't walk alone on the streets at certain times in certain places, we still have to raise kids and clean and cook (but we no longer have the luxury of the whole day free to do it in). We're still workers with no wages in that sense AND at the same time we are workers in the "business" world with considerably less salary than men for the same job, AND we're bombarded by media pressure to be physically perfect all at the same time. 



> We are paying the price for always being in shape, stretchmark-free, perfumed, smiling, perfect nails, perfect curriculum vitaes full of masters, Ph D’s and specializations. WE'VE BECOME SUPER-WOMEN AND OUR SALARIES ARE STILL LOWER THAN THEIRS.


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## Silvia

I think there's a bit of confusion in here. I think women have always worked, from day 1.

Thinking of a relative recent past (last two centuries), among my female ancestors there were field hands, workers in silk factories/industry, farmers, embroiderers, shirt-makers, dressmaker, weavers, bundle-makers, landowners, thus, depending on their job, they were either poor or well off. 6 or 7 children per woman was the standard. They would take care of their family (cooking, cleaning, ironing, washing...), unless they were well off and could pay someone to do that. They would get up *very* early in the morning and would go to bed early at night.


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## Jana337

Silvia said:
			
		

> I think there's a bit of confusion in here. I think women have always worked, from day 1.
> 
> Thinking of a relative recent past (last two centuries), among my female ancestors there were field hands, workers in silk factories/industry, farmers, embroiderers, shirt-makers, dressmaker, weavers, bundle-makers, landowners, thus, depending on their job, they were either poor or well off. 6 or 7 children per woman was the standard. They would take care of their family (cooking, cleaning, ironing, washing...), unless they were well off and could pay someone to do that. They would get up *very* early in the morning and would go to bed early at night.



A good point. Although rainbow's text is great fun, we should not forget that the idyllic description of the dolce vita applied to a tiny percentage of women who could afford such a lifestyle. I would never swap places with my ancestors (both male and female).

***
 Dear ladies,

I may be stirring up a hornet’s nest but let's face it: Women are not paid 25 percent less then man other things equal. There are few really reliable statistics but those I have seen confirm that the sexes are more or less on a par *as long as other things are equal. *When they are, it is at the age of 25-30 when the salaries begin to diverge. Yes, exactly that age when women typically have children. Being a woman is itself not a reason for having a lower pay. Being a mother is. It may be sad but it is entirely logical at the same time. On the other hand, women who sacrifice their family lives can be as good professionals as men, earning the same money.


Let me sketch where the 25 % could come from:
It is men who tend to have well-paid jobs. This is not due to a worldwide male conspiracy that causes sectors preferred by women to have lower wages. The reason is fairly straightforward: You find well-paid jobs in booming industries, and booming industries are associated with human capital intensive fields such as IT. Having a child is not easily reconciled with having to constantly catch up with the expanding pool of knowledge in your field. Our biological roles push us, women, into jobs such as a librarian, a teacher of mathematics at grammar school etc., where a professional brake of 3 years does not matter that much. For a person earning their bread as a programmer a much shorter break would be fatal.

   Then, there are women who – after having children – return on the labor market and find part-time jobs. Part-time jobs, logically, tend to pay less per hour than full-time jobs. A part-timer can hardly climb very high on the career ladder. You need the managers to be around all the time, not only in the mornings when kids are at school. You are more likely to be an accountant or an operator as a part-timer, not a boss. Female part-timers contribute substantially to the pay gap between sexes. As far as I can remember, the Great Britain has an unusually high percentage of female part-timers. And the British pay gap dwarfs those of comparable countries.

   Then there may be an influence of the insufficient confidence on the women’s part. I do not dare to estimate its relevance.

   Serious sources put the extent of real discrimination at some 2 – 3 percentage points out of 25, along with measurement errors.



   Jana


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## Kelly B

I feel very fortunate indeed at the range of choices available. In the 80s I would have been ridiculed for the decision to leave an engineering job to care for the children. Before that I wouldn't have gotten that engineering job to begin with. Now most of my peers have made the same decision (though with some regret) and have not lost respect for it. We can do it all, but do not feel obliged to do it simultaneously.


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## lainyn

Well, although I consider myself included among the "women" I am still, imho, a girl of 18, who knows nothing of what it is to make less than a man simply because of her sex. I don't think this will ever happen to me - I cannot see how it matters which gender is translating the damn book, in other words. I don't plan on marrying until I have graduated university, and I won't have kids until I've worked in the field for at least 2 years, I don't want to have a degree with no experience. So by the time I have kids I will be around 27 ish, I hope. And since I wish to translate documents, it should be fairly feasible to work from home 

~Lainyn


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## VenusEnvy

Jana337 said:
			
		

> When they are, it is at the age of 25-30 when the salaries begin to diverge. Yes, exactly that age when women typically have children. Being a woman is itself not a reason for having a lower pay. Being a mother is. It may be sad but it is entirely logical at the same time. *On the other hand, women who sacrifice their family lives can be as good professionals as men, earning the same money*.


I think one of the major points of the original posts was this exactly. In order to be up to par, women need to sacrifice their families. But, this doesn't hold true for their male counterparts.



			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> Let me sketch where the 25 % could come from:
> It is men who tend to have well-paid jobs. This is not due to a worldwide male conspiracy that causes sectors preferred by women to have lower wages. The reason is fairly straightforward: You find well-paid jobs in booming industries, and booming industries are associated with human capital intensive fields such as IT.


This doesn't explain why teachers and secretaries were initially dominated by men. As soon as women began to enter the fields, it became "dekilled", came under tighter conditions of control, lost many of its paths towards upward mobility, and became, "feminized". This trend was found in both fields. (Source: Apple, Michael. _Teaching and Women's Work_. The Structure of Schooling. McGraw-Hill: 2000, 346.) This same article states that "Although women teachers outnumbered their male collegues, the salaries they were paid were significantly lower" (348). This pattern has continued. (Notice: Same occupation, same educational attainment, same hours. The first women hired into the field were required to be childless, and not have children. Although this was some time ago, it controls for maternity leave constraints, and the inequality still exists.)



			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> Our biological roles push us, women, into jobs such as a librarian, a teacher of mathematics at grammar school etc., where a professional brake of 3 years does not matter that much.


We don't have biological _roles_. We have biological tendencies, but our roles, are entirely SOCIAL. If our roles were entirely biological, there would absolutely NO female engineers or mathematicians. They are few, but they exist. 17% of  Engineerings BA's were obtained by women. 46% of Mathematics BA's were attained by women. 33% of MA's in Computer Science were obtained by women. (Source: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics, Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System, Fall 2002 Survey.)



			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> Then, there are women who – after having children – return on the labor market and find part-time jobs. Part-time jobs, logically, tend to pay less per hour than full-time jobs. A part-timer can hardly climb very high on the career ladder. [...] Female part-timers contribute substantially to the pay gap between sexes.


The statistics I have read control for part-time and seasonal workers, and the inequality in wage earnings still exists. I get my information from the U.S. Census Bureau from 2003. I have a paper copy of the information from 2004, and the numbers are basically the same.


			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> Serious sources put the extent of real discrimination at some 2 – 3 percentage points out of 25, along with measurement errors.


Care to share your serious sources? I'd love to add more credible sources to my library.


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## Alundra

Después de leer todos estos mensajes, estoy atónita.

El primer mensaje sólo era una broma que circula por Internet desde hace bastante tiempo (he visto varias como esa) y normalmente es tomado como broma, creo que no hay que darle más vueltas al tema.

Ahora yo quiero hacerles algún que otro comentario.

Despues de cursar mis estudios, me puse a trabajar. Trabajé durante (más ó menos) quince años (como administrativo, y en una asesoría de empresas) y debo decir que eso me sirvió de mucho (entre otras cosas, madurar, jejej). Pero hace unos años, decidí dejar de trabajar, dedicarme a mi hogar, a mi marido a mis hijos y *a mi.*

Pensé que al dejar de trabajar, seguramente lo echaría de menos, pero no fue así. De hecho, hoy en día vivo como una reina. Por supuesto que el trabajo de casa lo realizo yo, mi marido trabaja fuera y yo lo hago dentro, pero eso no quiere decir que él no colabore en ciertas tareas (y lo hace) por propia iniciativa. Pero además de limpiar mi casa, yo puedo salir de compras cuando quiero (ó simplemente a mirar escaparates), yo no tengo horarios, mi sueldo es el de mi marido (no es que él me dé su sueldo, es que lo que él gana es de los dos, no suyo sólo), si un día no me apetece cocinar, hago huevos fritos y listo, si me quiero ir a cenar con unas amigas, pues quedo con ellas y me voy.

Con esto quiero decir, que aunque yo no trabaje, yo soy una *mujer moderna*. No me considero una mujer de las cavernas. Ya no estamos en el siglo XIX, estamos en el siglo XXI, y el hecho de que no trabaje no quiere decir que yo no tenga derecho al voto, derecho a salir con amigas, derecho a nada. *NO*. Yo puedo hacer todo lo que hace la mujer moderna, pero además, no trabajo. 

Pero claro, de pronto, me encuentro en una reunión con un grupo de mujeres. Y en el momento en el que digo que yo no trabajo (evidentemente todas (ó la gran mayoria del grupo) trabajan) me miran como si yo fuera una extraterrestre, un bicho raro, un especímen en vías de extinción. Y aunque no me importa (en un principio) las caras que me ponen, no acabo de entender el porqué de esa reacción. (Seguro que alguna de vosotras (porque estoy segura de que la mayoría trabajais, si no todas) habeis puesto también esa cara)

Yo no desapruebo que la mujer trabaje, al contrario, yo lo hice durante el tiempo que a mí me apeteció. Dejé de hacerlo porque llegó una época en mi vida que mi elección fue otra. Es más, yo admiro a la mujer que trabaja fuera de casa, porque es muy, muy difícil llevar una casa (porque por mucho que los hombres ayuden, hay muy pocos que lo hacen 50/50) y el trabajo al mismo tiempo. *Es admirable. *
También admiro el papel de la mujer en la historia, lo que hemos logrado gracias a mujeres también admirables.

Por eso, cuando veo este tipo de mensajes (los de la broma) me pregunto, si en realidad merece la pena trabajar tanto para luego no poder disfrutar de la vida.
¿Por qué se quejan tanto y después miran a las que se quedan en casa como si fueramos bichos raros?? 

Entiendo que hay muchas mujeres que trabajan porque necesitan trabajar para poder llevar la casa junto con el marido (hoy en día es muy difícil hacerlo, sobre todo en España). Pero si yo tuve la oportunidad de poder dejar de trabajar, ¿Por qué no aceptarlo simplemente como una elección personal?
¿Dónde está esa libertad de la que tanto habláis sobre la mujer?? Si yo comprendo el hecho de que otras mujeres quieran trabajar como una elección personal, ¿Por qué no aceptar también mi decisión de no querer trabajar? 

A mi me faltan horas del día. Tengo muchísimos hobbies y no me da tiempo para tantas cosas que quiero hacer. Yo no considero que el no trabajar (ó trabajar solo en casa) sea sinónimo de fregar. ¿Por qué se empeñan siempre en equipararlo? Yo hago mil cosas que *no* son fregar, la comida, planchar, cuidar de los niños, etc... yo traduzco, leo, hago puzzles, pinto, estudio idiomas, bordo, etc.....
¿Ya no soy moderna porque no trabajo? Vaya.......... 

Yo *si* me siento discriminada. Siento que hay discriminación con las mujeres que no trabajan fuera de casa. Pero me da exactamente lo mismo, solo sé que disfruto al máximo mi vida y me siento genial. Cada cual mire la suya, y haga lo mejor con ella. Hay muchísimas mujeres que su vida es su trabajo, pues bien, me alegro por ellas, porque así fue para mí durante una época de mi vida y las entiendo.

Por supuesto, mi elección supone una pérdida de dinero en casa. Pero eso es sólo cuestión de prioridades. Yo prefiero disfrutar de mi hogar aunque disponga de menos sueldo. Hay quien prefiere ganar más, aunque luego no puedan estar juntos apenas unos minutos al día. Yo no me quejo de que tengo X dinero y podría tener más. Simplemente, el día que quiera ó me apetezca volver a trabajar fuera de casa, buscaré un trabajo y me pondré a ello. 

 He dicho.

Alundra (mujer infravalorada por la sociedad, pero que no le importa, se lo pasa pipa) jejejeejeje


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## Phryne

(I'll use English since it'll reach more people who are participating and do not necessarily understand Spanish)

Dear Alundra ,
I feel quite sympathetic to your frustration with your non-understanding friends. But, dear, the initial post did not talk about women who decided to stay home. It referred to our grandmothers or even farther back, when we had no rights. I'll post one sentence only, as an example:  





			
				rainbow said:
			
		

> ME GUSTARÍA SABER QUIÉN FUE LA BRUJA, LA MATRIZ DE LAS FEMINISTAS QUE TUVO LA INFELIZ IDEA DE REIVINDICAR LOS DERECHOS DE LA MUJER Y POR QUÉ HIZO ESO CON NOSOTRAS QUE NACIMOS DESPUÉS DE ELLA.


So, this thread is not against women like you who do have a choice (and we are glad for that!) The joke romanticizes the days where not only our work at home was not recognized, appreciated or even seen, but also, we had no vote of any kind, no voice or opinion, or any life without a man. 
I know the joke is funny, but I can’t stop thinking that it’s quite offensive as well. In my country, even females glorify chauvinist jokes, without thinking that these so-called jokes reflect what kind of people we are. I’m sorry to say this, but although we are in a much better position, the world is not close to be equal for all genders and this "humor" evidences it.  
Alundra, I don’t think you’re a cavewoman or anything like that, since I don’t think working outside your home is “modern” per se. We are “modern” when we make decisions regarding our lives, not because we feel compelled to. In regards to parenthood, it involves the two of us, and besides pregnancy and breastfeeding, the rear of the children should be in both hands. The problem is that most men and women think that it is the mother who has to stay home to “raise” the children, or rush from work to pick them up. The latter are “working women”, “modern women” like your friends say! See the irony?
Anyway, I know you find this whole critique ridiculous, but to me, who does feel discriminated, the joke is offensive. So much blood and suffering cost us to be where we are, and so much work is still ahead of us, so please don’t throw it down the drain.

Saludos, 
MJ
PD: I’m wondering what our fellow male foreros think about this. So far none participated…


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## zebedee

Alundra, 

I think when it says "a modern woman" in the joke it refers to a woman of modern times as compared to women from previous generations.

What you've decided to do with your life is exactly what the woman of the joke wishes she could do but can't. Kudos to you. I wouldn't feel discriminated if I were you, I'd feel lucky to be able to afford to choose. Many women can't.

Yes, and where are those male opinions?


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## Jana337

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> We don't have biological _roles_. We have biological tendencies, but our roles, are entirely SOCIAL. If our roles were entirely biological, there would absolutely NO female engineers or mathematicians. They are few, but they exist. 17% of Engineerings BA's were obtained by women. 46% of Mathematics BA's were attained by women. 33% of MA's in Computer Science were obtained by women. (Source: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics, Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System, Fall 2002 Survey.)



Sorry but I must insist that child-bearing is a biological role, not a social tendency. There is obviously nothing that prevents a women from getting a CS degree but women - because must interrupt their career when they want to give life to a child - they are less likely to have the best paid jobs in that industry.

It is not biologically necessary that women and not men take care of the family. This is a social role that can be changed, at least partly. But as long as women bear the main burden of family care, the human capital of women will be lower than that of men. The labor market mirrors, not causes this phenomenon. You may call it discrimination if you prefer but it is a social discrimination at best, not a labor market-related discrimination.



> Care to share your serious sources? I'd love to add more credible sources to my library.



I will be glad to share them. Sadly, my library is nowhere close to me at the moment. I will check whether my sources are available on the web, too.

Jana


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## gotitadeleche

Alundra said:
			
		

> Después de leer todos estos mensajes, estoy atónita.
> 
> El primer mensaje sólo era una broma que circula por Internet desde hace bastante tiempo (he visto varias como esa) y normalmente es tomado como broma, creo que no hay que darle más vueltas al tema.
> 
> Ahora yo quiero hacerles algún que otro comentario.
> 
> Despues de cursar mis estudios, me puse a trabajar. Trabajé durante (más ó menos) quince años (como administrativo, y en una asesoría de empresas) y debo decir que eso me sirvió de mucho (entre otras cosas, madurar, jejej). Pero hace unos años, decidí dejar de trabajar, dedicarme a mi hogar, a mi marido a mis hijos y *a mi.*
> 
> Pensé que al dejar de trabajar, seguramente lo echaría de menos, pero no fue así. De hecho, hoy en día vivo como una reina. Por supuesto que el trabajo de casa lo realizo yo, mi marido trabaja fuera y yo lo hago dentro, pero eso no quiere decir que él no colabore en ciertas tareas (y lo hace) por propia iniciativa. Pero además de limpiar mi casa, yo puedo salir de compras cuando quiero (ó simplemente a mirar escaparates), yo no tengo horarios, mi sueldo es el de mi marido (no es que él me dé su sueldo, es que lo que él gana es de los dos, no suyo sólo), si un día no me apetece cocinar, hago huevos fritos y listo, si me quiero ir a cenar con unas amigas, pues quedo con ellas y me voy.
> 
> Con esto quiero decir, que aunque yo no trabaje, yo soy una *mujer moderna*. No me considero una mujer de las cavernas. Ya no estamos en el siglo XIX, estamos en el siglo XXI, y el hecho de que no trabaje no quiere decir que yo no tenga derecho al voto, derecho a salir con amigas, derecho a nada. *NO*. Yo puedo hacer todo lo que hace la mujer moderna, pero además, no trabajo.
> 
> Pero claro, de pronto, me encuentro en una reunión con un grupo de mujeres. Y en el momento en el que digo que yo no trabajo (evidentemente todas (ó la gran mayoria del grupo) trabajan) me miran como si yo fuera una extraterrestre, un bicho raro, un especímen en vías de extinción. Y aunque no me importa (en un principio) las caras que me ponen, no acabo de entender el porqué de esa reacción. (Seguro que alguna de vosotras (porque estoy segura de que la mayoría trabajais, si no todas) habeis puesto también esa cara)
> 
> Yo no desapruebo que la mujer trabaje, al contrario, yo lo hice durante el tiempo que a mí me apeteció. Dejé de hacerlo porque llegó una época en mi vida que mi elección fue otra. Es más, yo admiro a la mujer que trabaja fuera de casa, porque es muy, muy difícil llevar una casa (porque por mucho que los hombres ayuden, hay muy pocos que lo hacen 50/50) y el trabajo al mismo tiempo. *Es admirable. *
> También admiro el papel de la mujer en la historia, lo que hemos logrado gracias a mujeres también admirables.
> 
> Por eso, cuando veo este tipo de mensajes (los de la broma) me pregunto, si en realidad merece la pena trabajar tanto para luego no poder disfrutar de la vida.
> ¿Por qué se quejan tanto y después miran a las que se quedan en casa como si fueramos bichos raros??
> 
> Entiendo que hay muchas mujeres que trabajan porque necesitan trabajar para poder llevar la casa junto con el marido (hoy en día es muy difícil hacerlo, sobre todo en España). Pero si yo tuve la oportunidad de poder dejar de trabajar, ¿Por qué no aceptarlo simplemente como una elección personal?
> ¿Dónde está esa libertad de la que tanto habláis sobre la mujer?? Si yo comprendo el hecho de que otras mujeres quieran trabajar como una elección personal, ¿Por qué no aceptar también mi decisión de no querer trabajar?
> 
> A mi me faltan horas del día. Tengo muchísimos hobbies y no me da tiempo para tantas cosas que quiero hacer. Yo no considero que el no trabajar (ó trabajar solo en casa) sea sinónimo de fregar. ¿Por qué se empeñan siempre en equipararlo? Yo hago mil cosas que *no* son fregar, la comida, planchar, cuidar de los niños, etc... yo traduzco, leo, hago puzzles, pinto, estudio idiomas, bordo, etc.....
> ¿Ya no soy moderna porque no trabajo? Vaya..........
> 
> Yo *si* me siento discriminada. Siento que hay discriminación con las mujeres que no trabajan fuera de casa. Pero me da exactamente lo mismo, solo sé que disfruto al máximo mi vida y me siento genial. Cada cual mire la suya, y haga lo mejor con ella. Hay muchísimas mujeres que su vida es su trabajo, pues bien, me alegro por ellas, porque así fue para mí durante una época de mi vida y las entiendo.
> 
> Por supuesto, mi elección supone una pérdida de dinero en casa. Pero eso es sólo cuestión de prioridades. Yo prefiero disfrutar de mi hogar aunque disponga de menos sueldo. Hay quien prefiere ganar más, aunque luego no puedan estar juntos apenas unos minutos al día. Yo no me quejo de que tengo X dinero y podría tener más. Simplemente, el día que quiera ó me apetezca volver a trabajar fuera de casa, buscaré un trabajo y me pondré a ello.
> 
> He dicho.
> 
> Alundra (mujer infravalorada por la sociedad, pero que no le importa, se lo pasa pipa) jejejeejeje



The look you see on my face is not one of having seen an extraterrestrial, but of envy.


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## asm

A male opinion  .

I will use Spanish, I think that when I use English instead I loose like 20 IQ points, so from the ones that I have already, I will have negative numbers .

To honor these women I think I need to sound "male", not "stupid"





En mi opinion este problema tiene varias aristas. Por un lado Phryne tiene la razon de que el problema del chiste no es tanto lo "moderno" sino que esta glorificando una epoca en la que la mujer no tenia ni voz ni voto, y para lo unico que muchos hombres las querian era por ser el sexo debil: tenian ayuda, servicio, compania, lavandera, cocinera y sirivienta en el mismo paquete. Eso es lamentable. Aunque tambien creo que no era para todas, pero si para una gran cantidad de mujeres que tuvo que pasar por esas experiencias desagradables. 
Bien por quienes ayudaron al cambio en dos sentidos, uno el de hacer conciencia en las mujeres, y el hacer lo mismo con los hombres (espero que entiendan los dos problemas, uno es con ellas, el otro es con ellos -"nenes y nenas"    (phryne)).


Por otro lado, en esta vida "moderna" la mujer ha tenido que entrarle al trabajo remunerativo al mismo tiempo que el hombre le ha entrado al trabajo de la casa y del cuidado de los ninos. Desafortunadamente esto no siempre ha sido parejo. Mientras que la gran mayoria de las mujeres han "cumplido" con su parte, no todos los hombres ayudamos como "se debe". En eso les debemos (mucho) a muchas mujeres.



Otra faceta del problema, y en esto voy a estar en desacuerdo con algunas mujeres, es que en el mercado laboral la mujeres no siempre estan tan mal como dicen. Quiero quitar de la mesa de conversacion aquellas reglas no escritas de discriminacion sexual que todavia se dan, sobre todo en el tercer mundo. Una vez me dijeron que hay companias que piden cada mes una toalla femenina usada para que demuestren que no estan embarazadas (solo de oir la idea es para dar asco, tambien hay companias que al saber que una empleada se casa las corren (o liquidan) de dicha empresa, eso tambien es horrible). 

Pero en otros ambientes, en empresas mas maduras y en mercados que tienen un crecimiento en la participacion de las mujeres, las cosas "A VECES" son diferentes. 

EL problema de hacer comparaciones con sueldos es muy complicado. Generalmente solo comparamos el ingreso, pero no todo lo demas. Hace poco lei un articulo en el que el autor hacia una comparacion de salarios, y las mujeres tenian menos ganancias que los hombres, pero cuando el (la?) inversitgador quito algunas variables de la ecuacion (LO QUE ES OBLIGATORIO PARA CUALQUIER COMPARACION QUE SE RESPETE, AL MENOS DESDE EL PUNTO DE VISTA ESTADISTICO), las mujeres salian ganando mas en muchos ambitos.

Las mujeres muchas veces toman un momento para la familia, se dedican a ella tiempo completo y dejan de laborar en las empresas, eso, desde el punto de vista del desarrollo profesional va en detrimento a la "experiencia". Generalmente para que una persona "suba" en puestos y autoridad en una empresa tiene que dedicarle mucho tiempo al trabajo, y eso es mas comun con el hombre porque "socialmente" le esta mas permitido hacer ese "sacrificio", mientras que la mujer esta presionada a tomar mas roles, asi que sacrifica al trabajo por la familia. Aun cuando muchas mujeres deciden continuar con el trabajo, el cuidado de la casa entra en conflicto de cierta forma que aunque siguen en la empresa, no lo hacen con el mismo ritmo con el que lo hacian.



A mi juicio, y coincido con el autor del articulo que lei (lamento no poder dar la cita porque ya no lo tengo y no puedo rastrearlo ), todo este problema se debe a que la mujer tiene mas claro su panorama global. Al hombre solo le interesan algunos ambitos, como el laboral y el economico (estoy siendo simple en este juicio por razones de espacio), mientras que a la mujer se le facilita involucrarse en mas areas de la vida. Eso, desde un punto de vista mas humano, es mas enriquecedor. La mujer es mucho mas integral que el hombre, y eso en nuestra sociedad es muy castigado en ciertas areas. Pero eso no es solo con la mujer, en general esta sociedad premia muchas cosas que solo tienen que ver con lo material o lo superfluo. AL humanista se le castiga vs el tecnico; al noble se le castiga vs el pragmatico; al intelectual no se le da el valor que si se le da al "emprendedor" (que solo va por el $). 

Asi hay muchas areas de nuestra vida que operan injustamente.



Sobre el capital humano que alguien hablabla, creo que la mujer lo tiene mas diversificado. Si hablamos en terminos economicos, el capital humano de la mujer tiene una cartera de diversificacion que no tiene el hombre. Mientras que el hombre tiene todo su capital en el prestigio, la experiencia y el ingreso, la mujer tiene ademas ciertas redes sociales que el hombre carece, tiene inclinaciones mucho mas globales y su plan de vida no corresponde a su carrera professional, lo que si ocurre con frecuencia entre los hombres. Las mujeres no tienen todos los huevos en la misma canasta, los hombres sí. Sin embargo, esta perspectiva de que las mujeres no estan tan mal como algunas lo dicen, es solo parcialmente cierto, y mas aun cuando uno cambia de clase social o de perspectiva cultural. Alguien decia que la mujer indigena tiene el problema doble, por pobre y por mujer. A esto habria que anadir las crudas realidades que sufren muchas mujeres musulmanas y africanas, que por la forma en que estan estructuradas sus sociedades, la mujer es denigrada a tal grado que muchas veces ni siquiera podemos imaginarlo.


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## Alundra

Vamos a ver, en primer lugar quiero pedir disculpas por escribir en castellano, pero es para expresarme mejor, si algo no lo entendiérais, por favor, decidmelo y intentaré traducirlo para que lo entendais.



> I feel quite sympathetic to your frustration with your non-understanding friends.


 
A ver, Phryne, no eran amigas mías. Me refiero a cuando me encuentro charlando con cualquier mujer, cuando me he reunido con otras parejas, etc.. mis amigas me conocen bien, saben como soy y lo que hago. 



> So, this thread is not against women like you who do have a choice


 
Pues fíjate que yo creo que sí.
Vamos a ver, cuando la mujer de la broma dice "ESTOY ABDICANDO DE MI PUESTO DE MUJER MODERNA" creo que se refiere a que se quiere ir a casa y no quiere seguir trabajando fuera. ¿No es así?
Por lo tanto, si ser MUJER MODERNA significa trabajar fuera de casa, y abdicar significa irte a casa y dejar de trabajar fuera, llego a la conclusión de que a mí no se me considera mujer moderna ¿ves tu ahora mi punto de vista?



> I don’t think working outside your home is “modern” per se.


 
Tú quizá no, pero yo creo que la inmensa mayoría SÍ.



> The problem is that most men and women think that it is the mother who has to stay home to “raise” the children, or rush from work to pick them up. The latter are “working women”, “modern women” like your friends say! See the irony?


 
Vale, ahí te doy la razón, la mayoría piensan eso, pero yo no. Yo tomé la decisión de quedarme en casa por que así me pareció, no porque la sociedad me diga que soy yo la que tiene que quedarse en casa. De hecho, yo estaba trabajando, y cuando me cansé, dije: basta, me quiero ir a mi casa, quiero dejar de trabajar fuera de casa, quiero dedicarme a mi familia y a mí misma. Y quiero decir también que mi marido jamás influyó en mi decisión.

También quiero decirte que esos "roles" están ya cambiando. Yo tengo un hermano cuya esposa tuvo un bebé hace dos meses (tengo un sobrino que es una monada, ejejej  ) y es él quien lo cuida, y mi cuñada es la que está trabajando. Ya ves que yo lo tengo en mi familia y puedo ver como la sociedad lo va admitiendo.

En definitiva, que yo también soy una mujer, entiendo la lucha de las mujeres por equipararse socialmente con los hombres porque también he trabajado y sé lo limitadas que estamos en el ámbito laboral, y admiro a las que pueden llevar trabajo y hogar al mismo tiempo. 
Pero del mismo modo, también pido que entiendan que las mujeres que no trabajan fuera de casa no tienen porque ser infravaloradas.
Yo dedico algunas horas a limpiar mi casa. El resto del día lo paso haciendo lo que más me apetece. No es lo mismo que hace un centenar de años. Ni siquiera puedo compararme con mi madre, pues aunque ella también está en su casa, se pasa el día (desde que se levanta hasta que se acuesta) realizando tareas de la casa, mientras que yo (así tengo mi casa  , jejeejejej) sólo le dedico una parte del día.

Y una cosa más. 
Yo sé que para vosotras aunque sea una broma, es de mal gusto y os ofende, pero..... no hay que tomarse las bromas así.
Yo creo que bastantes cosas hay en la vida para malhumorarse y entristecerse, como para encima, no tomarse las bromas como lo que son, bromas.
Seguramente, la chica que escribió eso tuvo un muy mal día en su trabajo y lo escribió para desfogarse, y después lo lanzó por la red. ¿Creéis que toda mujer que lo lea dejará de trabajar por ello? Yo creo que no. Yo creo que lo mirará asintiendo con la cabeza como dándole la razón, luego sonreirá y después lo dejará a un lado y continuará con su trabajo.
Hay miles de bromas que se refieren a cosas que nos hacen ofender, ¿o vosotras creeis que a mi me gusta que piensen que estoy desfasada en el tiempo? 
Pero yo pienso que tenemos que ser más positivas, pensar en lo que estamos consiguiendo y en lo que nos queda por conseguir, y no amilanarnos por dos mensajes que lo único que pretenden es evadirte un poco del estrés diario.

Espero que no os enfadeis conmigo, por favor, veo que sois todas un encanto de personas, pero yo es que suelo ser muy positiva, me gusta ver la botella medio llena.  

Alundra.


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## rainbow

Alundra,
Everybody can infer that you are a smart, intelligent and cheerful person.
The joke I posted was not intended to look down on you as a non working woman, neither to criticize women in any sense.
Best Regards,
rainbow


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## asm

Alundra:

Entiendo tu punto de vista, pero creo compartir mas el sentimiento y la razon que motivaron a Phryne a escribir lo que escribio. En primer lugar ella hizo claro el punto de que como broma era simpatico y que ella disfruto el "chiste" como tal. Ese no fue su reclamo, lo que yo entiendo que motivo su reaccion es que entre broma y broma a veces escondemos realidades que son (y fueron) muy duras.

No todas las mujeres pueden tomar elecciones, y eso, dicho de broma o en serio, es un asunto delicado.

Ya en otros hilos he dicho que hay muchos tipos de diferenciacion entre nosotr@s, y el genero es uno de ellos, pero hay muchos otros que tambien generan desigualdad y marginacion. Una gran cantidad de mujeres, de las que ni conocen las computadoras, y que el internet esta mas cerca del cielo que de sus manos, saben lo que es ser marginadas.

Es una bendicion cuando algunas de estas causas de marginacion desaparecen o se ablandan. La pobreza, el machismo, o la segregacion religiosa, entre muchas otras, generan tal tension entre las mujeres, que la vida llega a ser insoportable, muchas veces aun cuando ellas quieren ver la botella medio llena.

El termino "mujer moderna" esta mediado por muchas variables, unas de ellas puede ser la clase social, la religion, o el pais de origen. Mientras que en una Europa progresista el chiste es simpatico, para una mujer indigena éste es una ofensa, y puedes poner toda una gama de posibilidades en medio de estos extremos. Cada quien ve la realidad desde su propia vision, y esa vision se va forjando poco a poco por medio de las historias personales y grupales (por eso hay individuos y tambien por eso hay culturas). 
Asi como "home" no significa lo mismo para todos (preguntale a una madre soltera, o a una chica que ha sido abusada, o a alguien que no entiende ingles), el termino "mujer moderna" tampoco significa lo mismo para tod@s, y creo que ese es parte del reclamo de algunas.

Creo que quien ensalza el pasado que vivio la mujer esta en su derecho, sin embargo creo que tiene una percepcion demasiado sesgada y eso, asi lo creo yo, fue la posicion inicial de Phryne y de muchas otras. Si hay que reconocer a la mujer de otras epocas no es por la vida sencilla y "alegre" que llevaron, sino por todo el esfuerzo que hicieron para poder soportar lo dificil que fue para ellas.

Para terminar; no creo que el exito de la mujer deba ser medido en los terminos en los que tradicionalmente se ha medido el del hombre: Exito economico, posicion, poder, etc. A mi juicio, aquellas mujeres que "imitan" al hombre para sentirse modernas fallan como hombres y fallan como mujeres.

Que tengan un buen dia


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## Alundra

rainbow said:
			
		

> Alundra,
> Everybody can infer that you are a smart, intelligent and cheerful person.
> The joke I posted was not intended to look down on you as a non working woman, neither to criticize women in any sense.
> Best Regards,
> rainbow


 
Rainbow, I know nobody look down on me as a non working woman. It was a joke, and as joke I took it. 
Thanks. 
Alundra.


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## Narda

Dear ladies:

I have to agree that nowadays things "seem to be better" for woman.  But definitely they are not better.  The responsibilites and demands have increased (not that I fear or avoid them) and in many cases (ask an executive, mother of 2) what we have at hand is an exhausted, grouchy woman that ages fast and whose productive life span is reduced tremendously.  After reading it in the forum, I took the liberty of copying it and sending it to several of my colleagues at work and all replies agreed on the fact the they are tired.  We all enjoy what we do though.

Also, please remember that women that were really driven by an ideal/desire, were successful, they did work hard and got where they wanted, examples:

Marie Curie
Elanora de Aquitania
Theodora de Bizancio
Virginia Wolf

Maybe not many, but they were driven!  Now there was a lady ( I don't
t remember her name) who was an author in the middle ages, she was the first woman to earn her living by writing.  I believe she was a mother.

My aunt, about 60 years ago, became a teacher and was the first founder of a school for the indians in the little town lost in the mountains.  The Ministry of Education put a plaque on her tomb.

There was a Dr. Rothert (somebody I knew when she was way past retirement age) who was one of the first doctors in the USA and used to travel by Donkey from town to town, through the mountains.  Not only in the USA but also in Latin America.

Ladies, when we are driven the times mean nothing, we could have benn born in the 800s.  But the fact that we have a bunch of exhausted women who age rapidly is a fact.


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## VenusEnvy

Narda said:
			
		

> Ladies, when we are driven the times mean nothing, we could have benn born in the 800s.  But the fact that we have a bunch of exhausted women who age rapidly is a fact.


Yes, we live on average 7 years longer than men. Go fig!

Another little known fact: Single women live longer than single men. Divorced women live longer than divorced men. Widowed women live longer (and remain more healthy) than widowed men. No matter what happens, we keep on truckin'!


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## Narda

Dear ladies, I think I messed up with my reply.  My apologies because now I have to write it again.

What I would like to say is that for women who are driven, regardlesss of the times and ages, they have left their their image very well engraved in history and in the lives of those around them:

Theodora de Bizancio
Leonor de Aquitania
Virginia Wolfe
Marie Curie

Less famous is the woman (unfortunately I don't remember her name) that made a living of writing, I believe she was a mother.

And a lot less famous:

My mother, my great-grandmother and my aunt Olivia.  They did not need to be in this ages to accomplish their goals.

Also, Dr. Rothert, who has always been somebody that I admire tremendously.  I met her when she was way beyond retirement age (I believe about 85+) many years ago.  One of the first doctors in the USA, she used to travel by donkey, through very hard places to visit her patients.

The mother of a dear friend of mine, who was a gynecologist already during WWII.  Whe I met her she was over 80 and being one of the directors of the Liga Nacional Contra el Cáncer, and not being allowed to drive anymore, she would take the bus to work everyday on the way back from work.  In the mornings her daughter-in-law would take her to work.

Now my friends, these women did not need a feminist movement to accomplish their goals or fulfill their dreams.  They still enjoyed when somebody opened the door for them, or pulled their chairs, or opened the car door for them.

When I saw the so called "joke", I sent it to several of my colleagues at work.  Even though most of us love what we do, we had to acknowledge that we are tired and in the process we have also lost many valuable assets.


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## Narda

Ah, y por favor no olvidemos a la super mujer de Proverbios 31.  Ella si no me equivocó debió haber existido antes de que los siglos se numeraran.


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## Jana337

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Yes, we live on average 7 years longer than men. Go fig!
> 
> Another little known fact: Single women live longer than single men. Divorced women live longer than divorced men. Widowed women live longer (and remain more healthy) than widowed men. No matter what happens, we keep on truckin'!



This is true but it might be a temporary phenomenon. I have heard that the life expectancies tend to converge as women 

join the labor force and have stressful jobs (as opposed to the demanding but quite routine chores of a housewife),   
increase their consumption of drugs like alcohol and tobacco. 
Jana


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## VenusEnvy

Jana: True.
Narda: You know that you can edit your post? That is to say that you can go back, and change what you've already posted? This is sometimes easier than re-posting the same thing with minor changes. If you do know, pardon.


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## asm

I watched the movie "como agua para chocolate" (like water for chocolate) few days ago. It depicts a women-only family in a very "conservative" environment (end of the XIX century and the beginning of the XX).

As I have said in forum before, minorities and poor people have the tendency to reproduce their status, even to the fact that sometimes the system is oppressing them in a brutal manner. When I watched the movie I was thinking about this discussion. An important part of the plot is that the mother is reproducing the system that oppressed her for many years, and her daughter ended doing the same thing with her own child.

I do not want to polemize any further on the topic of the way women were treated in the past (or in the present), I just want to point out the fact that sometimes it is the victim’s behavior the one that reproduces the system. This trend goes beyond goodwill and intelligence. The poor stays poor (this is not for everybody, but some poor people can move up, but decide not to do so for many reasons); the beaten wife stays home, when sometimes they can run away; the son of an alcoholic starts drinking in a very young age when they can stay sober; the examples could be on and on.

I am not blaming, I am not justifying, I am not on favor/against this, I am just addressing what I think is an important aspect of social reproduction.




			
				Phryne said:
			
		

> As a joke, it is funny, but in real life I could not disagree more.
> 
> It's very easy to romanticize and claim that women used to be at home enjoying life. Please!!! We had no rights, no vote, no words; we were merely men’s accessories and sadly, we couldn't even choose our spouses! In some cases we had no right to education, or the ability to do basic things such as walk alone on the streets, at certain times, in certain places. Our chores were to raise kids and stay home all day to clean and cook. We were worker with no wages.
> 
> Sorry, but I love to work, study and be treated as a person whose opinion is worth something.
> 
> Saludos


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## Narda

I agree with ASM.  I have seen it happen in a country that I won't mention.  Women there are suppossed to be very pretty, fashion statements but tacitly forbidden of showing any brains.  You know who are the most staunch promoters/followers??  Women... 

I had a dear friend whose husband got to be so bold as to invite his girlfriend to his birthday and the display was quite bold.  After the party my friend got a new car and a pearl necklace.  Nothing else happened.  Apparently, he had done things like that before.  He had even brought one of his girlfirends from one country to the other when they moved.

That in reality breaks my heart!  Where are you Virginia Wolf???


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## Narda

Mind you, I am not a feminist.  I am only happy and proud to be a woman.  I still believe that men and women are different.  My eyes have not shown me different.


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## Phryne

Alundra said:
			
		

> Espero que no os enfadeis conmigo, por favor, veo que sois todas un encanto de personas, pero yo es que suelo ser muy positiva, me gusta ver la botella medio llena.
> 
> Alundra.



Vale, Alundra, que no es que nos hayamos enfadado, pero "romantizar tiempos pasados" (muy distinto a trabajar en casa en tiempor modernos  ) sin tener en cuenta el sufrimiento que nos llevo estar en donde estamos me parece que puede hasta hacerse un "casi casi" paralelismo con hacer un chiste racista o sobre la violencia domestica. 

*ASM: * me gustaron muchos tus comentarios y valoro muchísimo tu postura progre sobre la mujer!!!   Two thumbs up!!!! Casi me olvido, qué valor has tenido! 

*Rainbow*: Por favor, espero no haberte ofendido. Sé que en ningún momento tuviste intención de pfender a nadie.. 

Thank you all for your valuable input. 

saludos, 
María José


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## cuchuflete

A few of you clamored for a male opinion, and you have, I believe, only one so far.

The entire topic is too complex for a single page, so I'll offer a few personal viewpoints.

-I find it both offensive and stupid for women to be paid less for equivalent work.  I was employed for many years by a corporation that strove to give not only equal opportunities, but preferential treatment to women, especially in managment positions.   My direct, personal experience was the following:  I worked for 6 women.
From three of them I learned much. I respected and admired them.  The others were not particularly competent.  Had I worked for 6 men, I expect I would have had a very similar experience.  The women were paid the identical salaries paid to men in the same management levels, and in most cases were promoted on the same basis.  The exceptions were favorable to the women.   That corporation, sadly, is not typical of most in my country.

-I have always done at least half the housework...including mechanical repair, and was the primary diaper changer when I was at home.  I also did more than half of the cooking and kitchen clean-up.  I think this should be, but is not, a great non-issue.

-My mother owned a business when she and my father married.  She gave it up to dedicate herself to what she considered to be the "profession" of being a mother and household manager.  "manager" included doing most of the work.  She and my father were partners who agreed to distinct roles, for their mutual satisfaction and comfort.
I have great respect for her decision.  She had a rare choice, and exercised it.
I have absolutely equal respect for women who choose work that occurs outside their homes.  Neither is a superior choice, simply different.

Our societies and economies have one foot in the past, and one pointing towards the future.  Many women are caught in the middle, and most men I know are insensitive to the question.

More opinions are available on request, but now I have to cook dinner.

un saludo,
Cuchu


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## garryknight

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Many women are caught in the middle, and most men I know are insensitive to the question.


In one of London's free newspapers there was a discussion of the so-called "glass ceiling" (for those that aren't _au fait_ with this term, it refers to the fact that women rarely rise above a certain position or a particular wage unlike men doing the same job). One wag wrote in to the newspaper to say, "Those ladies who were complaining about the glass ceiling: could you please give it a quick polish while you're up there? Thanks".


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## VenusEnvy

garryknight said:
			
		

> In one of London's free newspapers there was a discussion of the so-called "glass ceiling" [...] One wag wrote in to the newspaper to say, "Those ladies who were complaining about the glass ceiling: could you please give it a quick polish while you're up there? Thanks".


Grrr . . .    

By the way: What's a wag? A guy? A reporter?


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## garryknight

"Wag" = humorous or jocular person [Source: Times Dictionary]


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## asm

Muchas gracias por lo que dices; he de reconocer que no reconoci la palabra "progre", disculpas por el "resvalon" .



			
				Phryne said:
			
		

> *ASM: *me gustaron muchos tus comentarios y valoro muchísimo tu postura progre sobre la mujer!!!   Two thumbs up!!!! Casi me olvido, qué valor has tenido!


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