# If, even if



## Flaminius

Hi,

This comment makes me wonder something both about Hebrew and English.


Maayan said:


> _If you're mad - don't take it out on me_
> _אם אתה עצבני - אל תוציא את זה עלי_


I feel, perhaps it is my native language, that the two sentences mean that it is okay to take it out on the poor speaker if the interlocutor is NOT mad.  As it is not what they mean, I find the word _even_ or _gam ki_ missing from both of them.

If it is optional in both languages, to what extent is it omissible?


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## origumi

I am not sure if saying אם as in Maayan's example is "correct", for sure it is fully understood and sounds ok to the Hebrew speaker. The expressions that Maayan refers to, תצא עלי, תוציא עלי are likely to be used by those who do not really care about words and therefore the full example is from the same low register language.

גם כי is not used is modern Hebrew unless as an intentional reference to Psalms 23:4 (גם כי אלך בגיא צלמוות).
There are similar ways to say the same, for example גם אם, אפילו אם, זה ש....


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## pops91710

It should say, "If you are *angry,* don't take it out on me." With the lack of ire (anger) there would be nothing to take out on anyone, therefore your reversed logic "that it is okay to take it out on the poor speaker if the interlocutor is NOT mad" is invalid.


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## rosemarino

In American English, "to be mad at" is perfectly synonymous with "to be angry at," although slightly lower register, so it fits very well as a translation of the colloquial phrase posted in the original thread in which this question arose:

_אם אתה עצבני - אל תוציא את זה עלי_


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## pops91710

It is interchangeable in the American dialect. Not so overseas. The very reason we are often misunderstood abroad.


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## Maayan

Maybe what's missing in this sentence is the tone of speech. When saying אם אתה עצבני אל תוציא את זה עלי in a rushed manner, in the right context (let's say, in the midst of a quarrel) it can only mean one thing: "Don't take your anger out on me!"


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## Flaminius

origumi said:


> גם כי is not used is modern Hebrew unless as an intentional reference to Psalms 23:4 (גם כי אלך בגיא צלמוות).
> There are similar ways to say the same, for example גם אם, אפילו אם, זה ש....


This clearly shows how I have studied Hebrew.    Thank you for pointing me to more modern expressions.

Even if, ahem, "if" and "even if" are interchangeable in American English and אם and גם אם in Hebrew, I wonder if there are not cases where "even if" and גם אם are preferred to the other expressions.  What about a sentence with negation in the _if_-clause?

גם אם לא ישלמו את הכפר, נשחרר אותך בזמן.


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## Maayan

Flaminius said:


> I wonder if there are not cases where "even if" and גם אם are preferred to the other expressions. What about a sentence with negation in the _if_-clause?
> 
> גם אם לא ישלמו את הכפר, נשחרר אותך בזמן.


 
Following your example: 
אפילו אם לא ישלמו את הכפר (or: אפילו לא ישלמו את הכפר)
But you can't use the other alternatives here: 
אם לא ישלמו את הכפר, נשחרר אותך בזמן - doesn't make sense.
זה שלא ישלמו את הכפר, נשחרר אותך בזמן - also, doesn't make sense.


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## kishmish

origumi said:


> The expressions that Maayan refers to, תצא עלי, תוציא עלי are likely to be used by those who do not really care about words and therefore the full example is from the same low register language[/rtl].


 
Origumi, This is quite a generalization you are making here, isn't it? Colloquial language is used by all, those who care and do not care about words. The beauty of languages is their variety that allows us to use different words in different contexts. It would have been very boring otherwise


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## origumi

kishmish said:


> Origumi, This is quite a generalization you are making here, isn't it? Colloquial language is used by all, those who care and do not care about words.


I have never used expressions like אל תצא עלי, אל תתעווז עלי. I also do not מלרלר or demonstrate excitement by סוף הדרך or פ33ות לג2ות (some of these may be obsolete already). Even more, I do not remember ever hearing such words directed to me. Am I special? Not likely. Therefore generalization is possible. It's a matter of environment, education, age, etc.

But all of this is definitely off-topic.


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