# Clear reference to forum rules in Mods' actions



## TheChabon

I have a huge respect for whatever method you use for somehow 'administering' this huge system of forums, but this is a point where I think things clearly have room for improvement for the benefit of both users and administrators. 

- When a moderator takes action, _especially deleting a message starting a thread with a question_, there should be some kind of notification (automatic, or some standard text by private message if manual) to the user, so that he doesn't waste time waiting for replies that he will never get, and can eventually decide to resend the message with whatever fix it needs. 

- Notifications of Moderators' actions, be them via private message or the ones that show in the forum threads list, should be _direct and precise_. Example, Rules-FAQ, I-4; Español-Deutsch, regla 10. I've wasted monumental amounts of time resending a question failing to figure out what was the rule that the moderator thought I was breaking (every time with wasted hours of wait in between, because of the lack of notification about the deletions). 
[When I finally got from the Moderator the text of the rule he thought I was breaking (which was in another language and format than the one I get from the forum where all this was going on), it turns out that his interpretation of the text is different than mine, and that is an ongoing battle and a different story --we would have got to that point much faster and with less frustration if the clear reference had been there from the start.]


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## Valeria Mesalina

They do.

At least that's what I`ve seen on "my" regular fora. When mods delete a thread they leave a message "no context", "homework", "proofreading", whatever. Many times they leave a short message too, or write "PM will be sent". They do the same thing when they delete a post, be either due to "rule X" or to "rule Y". 

Maybe other fora have other rules, I don't know. 

Of course the mods do not any longer write any message to me when they have to delete my posts/threads. After all, I've been here so long that I know very well what rule I'm breaking .


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## panjandrum

I haven't come across this problem, although I very rarely quote rule numbers in delete messages or PMs.  An explanation of the problem seems, to me, to be more helpful than a rule-based cryptic message.

There aren't all that many rules and it should be very clear from the message why something has been deleted.

If there is any doubt, ask the moderator for more information.


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## fenixpollo

TheChabon said:


> - When a moderator takes action, _especially deleting a message starting a thread with a question_, there should be some kind of notification (automatic, or some standard text by private message if manual) to the user, so that he doesn't waste time waiting for replies that he will never get, and can eventually decide to resend the message with whatever fix it needs.


 I agree wholeheartedly. I think it's poor communication on the part of the moderator if he/she deletes or closes a thread and does not clearly explain to the thread starter why the thread was deleted.

Of course, the person who started the thread can always send a message to the moderator, to ask for an explanation. 





TheChabon said:


> - Notifications of Moderators' actions, be them via private message or the ones that show in the forum threads list, should be _direct and precise_. Example, Rules-FAQ, I-4; Español-Deutsch, regla 10.


I agree that notifications should be clearly explained, but "quoting chapter and verse" from the forum rules is usually counterproductive. Most people appreciate a simple and cordial explanation of what they did wrong, instead of simply listing a rule number.


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## TheChabon

The point of the _notification_ [PM, automatic PM, etc.] I would consider beneficial as a standard practice is _not_ the explanation, but making the thread starter aware that the thread is not out there any longer. It is not that people are not replying to his question —his thread does not exist. 

Regarding the _specific reference to a rule_: add to that that the moderator was not referring to any rule, and go figure out what 'message too long' means (in this case it meant _the quoted text _was too long; _too long_ means longer than three sentences, in copyright protected text; this _was not_ copyright protected text; the moderator thought that didn't matter; figuring all this out took hours, with days of waiting for replies to non-existent threads in between). Of course the 'simple and cordial' explanation can always be added, but two people can be looking at the same written rule and interpreting it differently, which is what happened in this case, which we figured out once we finally got to the rule. 

Since there are written rules, it makes sense to refer to them, both to clarify the point and to eventually improve the rule; otherwise you could do just as well without written rules. Also it would actually save work and trouble. If you can type 'Message too long', it doesn't change a lot to type 'Message too long, GFR 1.5".


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## JamesM

> in this case it meant _the quoted text _was too long; _too long_ means longer than three sentences, in copyright protected text; this _was not_ copyright protected text; the moderator thought that didn't matter; figuring all this out took hours, with days of waiting for replies to non-existent threads in between).


 
It doesn't matter when it comes to WordReference. Whether you wrote it yourself, found it in the public domain or found it in a copyrighted work the rule still applies that only four lines are allowed, per forum rules. The rule is very clear and does not have exceptions for non-copyrighted works.  We simply do not have the time to determine whether or not any quoted material is under copyright or not.  The blanket rule simplifies it for everyone.

I'm not sure why there would be "days of waiting" in any case. You are welcome to contact any moderator if you are not receiving a response from a particular moderator. Failing that, you can contact the board owner directly.


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## TheChabon

The 'days of waiting' for a response to a non-existent thread have to do with not being aware that the thread was deleted, which is the reason why a notification would make sense. 

[The discussion of the rule or how the rule is written is not the point of this thread --but the rule I was pointed at does not match what you are saying in your first paragraph, James. I am not interested in discussing the rule here, and I am only pasting this to show that a clear reference to the rule would greatly simplify things: 
No *copyrighted material *may be inserted into posts except as indicated here: 
Quotes and translations of prose up to 4 sentences are permitted.]


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## JamesM

The last line of that same section says:

*All forms* of inserted content that do not meet these conditions will be removed *without exception. *

There are multiple ways to deal with a problem in a thread. All of them have fans and detractors. It is clear that you prefer the rules to be referenced. There are many others who don't. Some find rule quoting to be irritating and cold. Others prefer the comment to be in the thread. Still others would rather have the entire thread completely removed and a PM sent. We can't know who will prefer what. We apply whatever method seems best at the time.

If you want to know the rule and a moderator happens to delete your thread without a rule reference, feel free to contact the moderator who deleted your thread. If you still don't receive an answer or still have questions or problems with the deletion, feel free to contact another modrerator in that forum or any moderator on the board.


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## jann

TheChabon said:


> - When a moderator takes action, _especially deleting a message starting a thread with a question_, there should be some kind of notification [...] to the user, so that he doesn't waste time waiting for replies that he will never get, and can eventually decide to resend the message with whatever fix it needs.


I believe it is reasonable for the author of a thread to be notified if the question is removed from the forum.  Threads that are moved to the forum trash simply disappear (impossible for members to see them)... and threads that are deleted in place are not much easier to find (you would have to go to the page that displayed the title of the thread in its chronological position on the forum if you wanted to see the notice with the reason for deletion).  

On the French forums, we recognize that it is confusing for a member if his or her thread simply disappears.  As you say, straightening matters out can be a waste of time -- ours, and yours.  We prefer to avoid this confusion as much as possible... and so as a general rule, we do not delete threads from the French forum without notifying the author of the thread by private message.  Sometimes it takes us a while to send the private message (generally less than 15 min, occasionally up to several hours), but we almost always send one.  If we don't, it is probably an oversight, not a deliberate choice.

On the other hand, if you cannot find your thread, then _please don't resubmit it_.  If it's not in your subscriptions list (and please look carefully in your subscriptions because it may be there under a title you don't recognize) and if you can't locate it via the forum search or the dictionary title list, then you may assume that it was removed by the moderators.  You can be assured that reposting it will not solve the problem, because unless you understand what rule you broke and fix things accordingly, the new copy will also break the rules and be deleted. * 

So if you realize that one of your threads has disappeared and you didn't get an explanation, here's what I suggest:* 
 report (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) one of your own posts from the forum where your question disappeared, and use the "report" form to explain that you had posted a question about topic X that seems to have disappeared.  Say that you assume it was deleted, and tell us that you would appreciate it if one of the moderators could contact you to explain what the problem was, because you would like to figure out how you can reformulate that question in a way that won't break the rules.

Jann
French forums moderator


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