# Quapropter rogemus Dominum



## KsSp

Hello. 
Here is the next sentence from the mysterious (for us) passage from Homily 38 on Luke by Origen. 
'Quapropter rogemus Dominum, ut omnes emamus potius quam vendamus.'
Here is the result of an attempt to understand it:
'That is why we ask God for everything we buy to be better than what we sell'.
Actually, it is the whole paragraph that is difficult to understand, as some of the sentences seem to be unrelated. Here is the link to the page with the paragraph in question (this piece is highlighted in yellow; the link will take you to Google Books, so nothing dangerous there). 
So the question is, if this translation is more or less close to what the original sentence means, what does it mean in this context? How is doves being beautiful and not selling doves (as this means selling the Holy Spirit) related to the wish for purchases to be better than what is being sold and the sentence that follows: 'Si enim non vendiderimus, cognoscimus et intelligimus salutem nostrum : alioquin inimici circumdabunt urbem nostrum', which we take to mean 'If we do not sell, we will learn and understand our salvation...'. (Not sure if there is the 'if - then' relation between 'vendiderimus' and 'cognoscimus', but since there is a kind of 'else' in the clause after ':', it appears to be so.)
Thank you!


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## Scholiast

Dear Friends everywhere

_Quapropter rogemus Dominum, ut omnes emamus potius quam vendamus..._

'For this reason, let us ask God, that we may all seek to buy, rather than sell, them [doves, that is].*

Unfortunately the theological and indeed scriptural reference has escaped me here. Perhaps KsPs can enlighten me further, for I would love to be able to comment more helpfully.

I'm recognising the passage out of Jerome's _Homilies _(XXXVIII) on Luke's _Gospel_, but not quite home yet.

As always

Σ

*I am now told, by a much more expert biblical scholar than I am, that in Jesus' time doves and other fowl were on sale for sacrifice in the ancient Temple of Jerusalem. Her, my friend's, scholarship is impeccable, and she also knows Hebrew, which (sadly) I do not.
Σ


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## KsSp

Thank you, Scholiast! Yes, we know about sellng fowl for sacrifice (thank you for asking your friend - and please say our thanks to her for helping!); it's the connection between the two sentences earlier in the paragraph that seems to be strange in the context ('The dove is a simple and noble/beautiful creature. I fear that a sin of this kind may be apprehended, in ourselves as well.') Perhaps, it is not the right way of asking about it (the meaning of several sentences) - sorry for (possibly) violating the rules of the forum. 
And, perhaps, our interpretation of 'Si enim non vendiderimus, cognoscimus et intelligimus salutem nostrum : alioquin inimici circumdabunt urbem nostrum', which we take to mean 'If we do not sell, we will learn and understand our salvation...', is incorrect. Since it is already in this thread, could anyone please comment on this one too? 
Thank you!


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## Lambina

Hello KsSp,

I'm sorry I didn't read the text on the link but the idea could be that if we give something small and poor to God, we hope He is merciful and gives us something much better.

Somehow it also reminds me of this:

_veritatem eme et noli vendere sapientiam et doctrinam et intellegentiam_ (Proverbia 23:23)

I'm only guessing, anyway.


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## Scholiast

saluete iterum!

Lambina's observation may or may not be pertinent—though of course Jesus and presumably Origen knew his Wisdom-literature inside out.

But I have one further remark (on which I would welcome KsSp's comments). The clause may be paraphrased thus: 'Let us beseech God, that we may all buy [sacrificial beasts, in order to perform our reverent duties], rather than sell [them, thereby showing that we are more interested in money than we are in worship].

If there is an allusion to the _Proverbs_ passage Lambina cites, the overall sense will be much the same: it is better to be prepared to pay (literally or figuratively) for truth, wisdom, understanding &c. than to (seek to) profit from them.

Σ


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## KsSp

Lambina said:


> Hello KsSp,
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't read the text on the link but the idea could be that if we give something small and poor to God, we hope He is merciful and gives us something much better.
> 
> Somehow it also reminds me of this:
> 
> _veritatem eme et noli vendere sapientiam et doctrinam et intellegentiam_ (Proverbia 23:23)
> 
> I'm only guessing, anyway.


Thank you, Lambina, for your observation! 


Scholiast said:


> saluete iterum!
> 
> Lambina's observation may or may not be pertinent—though of course Jesus and presumably Origen knew his Wisdom-literature inside out.
> 
> But I have one further remark (on which I would welcome KsSp's comments). The clause may be paraphrased thus: 'Let us beseech God, that we may all buy [sacrificial beasts, in order to perform our reverent duties], rather than sell [them, thereby showing that we are more interested in money than we are in worship].
> 
> If there is an allusion to the _Proverbs_ passage Lambina cites, the overall sense will be much the same: it is better to be prepared to pay (literally or figuratively) for truth, wisdom, understanding &c. than to (seek to) profit from them.
> 
> Σ


Thank you! Such a great insight into the topic. Perhaps, it could also be an allusion to Luke 16:9: 'And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.'


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## Scholiast

и снова здравствуйте!

Hmmm. Confession: I did not study the text in the link KsSp supplied in # 1 until just now (Saturday evening), and it is too late for me to attempt that right now; also, I have looked at the passage of Luke (16:9, # 6), in the original Greek as well as a couple of English translations, which I find theologically hard to fathom—it's in the context of an extended passage about Jesus' teachings on money. I need to understand this better before I can give an authoritative answer about Origen's Latin. I'll try to do better tomorrow.

_Buona sera_,

Σ


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## KsSp

Buongiorno!
Theologically, this passage (Luke 16:9: 'And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.') means (at least it can be considered one of the interpretations) that every kind of material posession, regardless of what it is, is by definition 'unrighteous' (as such things belong to this world), and it is these posessions that you should strive to sell in order to get something spiritual, the only truly valuable posessions, in return.

The 'Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness' part does not mean that you should be friends with those who aspire to wealth and prosperity - such an idea would run counter to the very principles behind Christian teachings. What is meant here (from the theological point of view - not sure about Latin and Greek, linguistically) is that you should win/make friends by means of a sort of exchange: you give your material belongings to others, thus winning friends, and by doing so, when you have given all your posessions away, you will attain salvation. The King James translation seems to interpret it differently; the explanation above is based on the Greek 'κἀγὼ ὑμῖν λέγω· ποιήσατε ἑαυτοῖς φίλους *ἐκ* τοῦ μαμωνᾶ τῆς ἀδικίας, ἵνα, *ὅταν ἐκλίπητε, δέξωνται* ὑμᾶς εἰς τὰς αἰωνίους σκηνάς' (sorry if Greek and other languages are prohibited in this part of the forum - hopefully, they are not).

This idea is conveyed in the following verse, too: 'Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me' (Matthew 25:40), and runs through all the Gospels. The idea is also expressed at the end of Homily 39: 'Quapropter surgentes oremus Deum, ut digni simus offerre ei munera quae nobis restituat et pro terrenis caelestia largiatur, in Christo Jesu'.


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## Scholiast

saluete iterum, amici!



KsSp said:


> you give your material belongings to others, thus winning friends, and by doing so, when you have given all your posessions away, you will attain salvation



Now that begins to make theological sense to me, in the Lucan and wider Christian context. It's the 'treasure in heaven' theme: give, or be prepared to give, away your material possessions/wealth, and when you have done so, you can aspire to life eternal.

Only, my Greek NT reads ἐκλίπῃ* (aorist subjunctive) rather than ἐκλίπητε (not a form I recognise)—not I think that this matters a lot here.

*Yes, your Greek font is perfectly legible at my end, as I hope mine (and my Cyrillic) is at yours.

Σ


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