# seit ich sechs Jahre alt bin/war?



## lodoletta

Hallo Zusammen!

I am Italian, and I study German in Munich.

In my last homework I had to describe a person using the "Relativsätze".

Since I had a big doubt, I wrote

"Ich möchte einen Mann beschreiben, den ich seit meinem sechsten Lebensjahr sehr liebe." (my brother...)

I know that that sentence is correct but I would like to ask you all anyway regarding my doubt.

Infact my first idea was to write:

"Ich möchte einen Mann beschreiben, den ich liebe, seit ich sechs Jahre alt *war*"

but speking with Italian (and German...) friends someone (but not everybody!) told me to use the present form "bin" instead of "war".

Now, I know that I still love my brother ("ich liebe", present) but "es tut mir leid..." I am not anymore "sechs Jahre alt", so I used the past.

Could you please give me your opinion?

Thank you in advance

Cecilia


----------



## berndf

I think war is correct. Using bin would mean you're still six.

By the way: If you wanted to be very pedantic it sound be _...__, seit ich fünf Jahre_ alt war since the_ das sechste Lebensjahr_ is the year between your 5th and 6th birthday.


----------



## lodoletta

Thank you berndf!

Also a (German) colleague of mine told me the same, but he also told me that in the common use one says "Mein sechsten Lebensjahr" meaning "when I was six". You would confirm this or in your opinion it means, also in the common use, "when I was five"?

Thank you again so much!

Cecilia


----------



## Frieder

Most people confuse ordinal numbers and cardinal numbers when
it comes to describing age.

They say "Es ist mein zwanzigster (Geburtstag)" when they reach 
twenty but in fact, they forget that their first birthday was actually
when they were born. So it is their twentfirst birthday.

So if you want to be very pedantic like berdf, you would say _seit
ich sechs Jahre alt war_. But most people would also recognise
_seit meinem sechsten Lebensjahr_ as _seit ich sechs Jahre alt war,
_because nobody cares about cardinal/ordinal(except perhaps for 
a few fusspots like berdf and me).


----------



## lodoletta

... because of that I prefere the form "seit ich 6 Jahre alt war" but in my colleagues opinion it doesn't sound too German.

I know that my level is not good enough to enter this kind of details, but I would like to learn in a correct way!

Thank you so much!

Cecilia


----------



## bearded

@ Frieder
Latins and Anglo/Saxons/Germans have different points of view on birthdays:  you say 'day of birth', we say 'compleanno' (completion of the year) or 'anniversaire' (year's day or day of year's return), so for us the first birthday/Geburtstag is indeed 12 months after birth. By no means do we have birthday on our day of birth (it would be our zero-birthday).


----------



## berndf

Frieder said:


> They say "Es ist mein zwanzigster (Geburtstag)" when they reach
> twenty but in fact, they forget that their first birthday was actually
> when they were born. So it is their twentfirst birthday.


I don't agree here. In my understanding _his 20th birthday_ (in German as well as in English) is short for _the 20th anniversary of his birthday_. If this interpretation is correct than _his 20th birthday_ does indeed refer to _the day he reaches the age of 20_.

Attestations:
German: Meaning 1 of _Geburtstag_ in Duden: _Jahrestag der Geburt_.
English: Meaning 2 of _birthday _in Webster: _An anniversary of a birth._



bearded man said:


> @ Frieder
> Latins and Anglo/Saxons/Germans have different points of view on birthdays: you say 'day of birth', we say 'compleanno' (completion of the year) or 'anniversaire' (year's day or day of year's return), so for us the first birthday/Geburtstag is indeed 12 months after birth. By no means do we have birthday on our day of birth (it would be our zero-birthday).


Maybe not that different.


----------



## berndf

lodoletta said:


> ... because of that I prefere the form "seit ich 6 Jahre alt war" but in my colleagues opinion it doesn't sound too German.


That's why we perfer _seit meinem sechsten (siebten) Lebensjahr _in writing. In spoken language, I guess nobody really cares.


----------



## Frieder

@ berndf: So then, I'm a bit more pedantic than you are. And in this
matter, Duden is no authority for me, because it contradicts formal
logic. 

20: "Ich bin zwanzig (Jahre alt/geworden)"
20: "Ich vollende mein zwanzigstes Lebensjahr"
20: "Mein Geburtstag jährt sich zum zwanzigsten Mal"
19: "Heute ist mein zwanzigster Geburtstag"

And that's the way I use it, no matter what Duden may
have in mind.

A bit ambivalent may be "Ich _feiere _heute meinen zwan-
zigsten Geburtstag", because I didn't necessarily celebrate 
my first one.


----------



## berndf

I am sorry, you are mistaken. _Heute ist mein zwanzigster Geburtstag_ means exactly _Mein Geburtstag jährt sich zum zwanzigsten Mal_.

The expression _zwanzigster Geburtstag_ is short for _zwanzstigster Jahrestag (der Wiederkehr) meine__r Geburt_. It is just a definition and definitions is something you record in dictionaries and there is absolutely nothing illogical about this definition.

On the contrary, if you defineded _Geburtstag_ as the _day of my birth_​, as you obviously do, *then* the expression _mein zwanzigster Geburtstag _would be illogical because you don't want to say you were born 20 times. If, as I do and Duden and Webster do too, you define _my birthday_ as _*anniversary *of my birth_, then the expression is logical.


----------



## Schimmelreiter

lodoletta said:


> "Ich möchte einen Mann beschreiben, den ich liebe, seit ich sechs Jahre alt *war*"
> 
> but speking with Italian (and German...) friends someone (but not everybody!) told me to use the present form "bin" instead of "war".


The incorrect present tense is indeed heard. It's very colloquial (in the sense of _very wrong but in colloquial use_). I've heard people my age (= really old) say things like _Seit ich ein Kind *bin*, wünsche ich mir, nach China zu reisen._




Frieder said:


> @ berndf: So then, I'm a bit more pedantic than you are. And in this
> matter, Duden is no authority for me, because it contradicts formal
> logic.
> 
> 20: "Ich bin zwanzig (Jahre alt/geworden)"
> 20: "Ich vollende mein zwanzigstes Lebensjahr"
> 20: "Mein Geburtstag jährt sich zum zwanzigsten Mal"
> 19: "Heute ist mein zwanzigster Geburtstag"
> 
> And that's the way I use it, no matter what Duden may
> have in mind.
> 
> A bit ambivalent may be "Ich _feiere_ heute meinen zwan-
> zigsten Geburtstag", because I didn't necessarily celebrate
> my first one.



_
Tag der Geburt = Geburtsdatum_ (date of birth)
_Geburtstag _(birthday)

One would never ask about the latter to learn about the former.


----------



## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> _
> 
> 
> Tag der Geburt = Geburtsdatum_ (date of birth)
> _Geburtstag _(birthday)
> 
> One would never ask about the latter to learn about the former.


Yes, I see it like this too: Frieder erroneously identified the term _Geburtstag_ with_ Geburtsdatum_.

By the way: Duden records _Geburtsdatum_ as meaning 2 of the Lemma _Geburtstag_ but marks it as "Amtssprache". I am not sure I would agree. I can't recall ever having come across an official document that used the term _Geburtstag_ in the sense of _Geburtsdatum_. But anyway: In the expression _xx-ter Geburtstag_, only Duden's meaning 1 would be meaningful.


----------



## lodoletta

I found on an internet explanation that is not correct to put together the present (in the Hauptsatz) and the Praeteritum (Nebensatz). Would you say the same? 

Maybe it is better "... seit ich sechs Jahre alt gewesen bin"


----------



## berndf

lodoletta said:


> I found on an internet explanation that is not correct to put together the present (in the Hauptsatz) and the Praeteritum (Nebensatz). Would you say the same?
> 
> Maybe it is better "... seit ich sechs Jahre alt gewesen bin"


That is just the colloquial replacement of the preterite by the present perfect. No better, maybe even worse.


----------



## manfy

lodoletta said:


> I found on an internet explanation that is not correct to put together the present (in the Hauptsatz) and the Praeteritum (Nebensatz). Would you say the same?


No! That's a simplified description. If the action in the main clause takes place in the present and the action in the subclause in the past, then it's perfectly normal to mix tenses. But certain other criteria might have to be taken into consideration; see below.



lodoletta said:


> Maybe it is better "... seit ich sechs Jahre alt gewesen bin"


Just like Bernd said, this gives the impression of being coloquial, because it 'feels' like double-perfect, which is very much frowned upon -- even though it is proper perfect tense of 'sein'.

I do have to admit though that the word 'seit' and subsequent preterit 'feels a little off' in German, even though it is grammatically correct.
I guess, that is due to the fact that 'seit + present tense' is much more frequently used, c.f.:

Seit ich erwachsen bin, geht es mir viel besser. -> 'seit' implies that it was an event in the past and 'erwachsen *bin*' indicates that this status continues to the present
Seit das Problem gelöst ist, haben sich die Verkaufszahlen verdoppelt. 
Seit das Problem gelöst war, haben sich die Verkaufszahlen verdoppelt. 
Als das Problem gelöst war, haben sich die Verkaufszahlen plötzlich verdoppelt.  (this is possible but not so good)
better: Nachdem das Problem gelöst war, haben sich die Verkaufszahlen plötzlich verdoppelt.


----------



## lodoletta

So, for example, is it correct if I write:

"Ich mag Rock, seit in California war" (I am not anymore in California)

or

"Ich mag Rock, seit in München bin" (Now I live in Munich)
?


----------



## Schimmelreiter

lodoletta said:


> So, for example, is it correct if I write:
> 
> "Ich mag Rock, seit in California war" (I am not anymore in California)
> 
> or
> 
> "Ich mag Rock, seit in München bin" (Now I live in Munich)
> ?


Both are correct except for the missing subjects and the spelling of _Kalifornien. (seit *ich *in *Kalifornien *war/seit *ich *in München bin)._


----------



## lodoletta

Schimmelreiter said:


> Both are correct except for the missing subjects and the spelling of _Kalifornien. (seit *ich *in *Kalifornien *war/seit *ich *in München bin)._



Danke!

I have a question, the teacher of my course told me it that sound a little bit strange to repeat always the subject, if it is the same of the Hauptsatz, but maybe I misunderstood... there is a defined rule?


----------



## Glockenblume

lodoletta said:


> I have a question, the teacher of my course told me it that sound a little bit strange to repeat always the subject, if it is the same of the Hauptsatz, but maybe I misunderstood... there is a defined rule?


In most  German sentences, a subject is necessary - in contrary to Italian.
What you should try to avoid is to *begin* sentences by the same subject (exceptly if you want to stress the subject).


----------



## lodoletta

Glockenblume said:


> In most  German sentences, a subject is necessary - in contrary to Italian.
> What you should try to avoid is to *begin* sentences by the same subject (exceptly if you want to stress the subject).



I cannot understand, do you mean to begin haupsätze with the same subject?

Like "Ich heiße Cecilia und ich bin 33 Jahre alt", that would be better "Ich heiße Cecilia und bin 33 Jahre alt"?


----------



## Schimmelreiter

lodoletta said:


> I have a question, the teacher of my course told me it that sound a little bit strange to repeat always the subject, if it is the same of the Hauptsatz, but maybe I misunderstood... there is a defined rule?


Two or more main clauses: One subject is enough _(Ich mag Rock und liebe Blues)._

Two or more subordinate clauses: One subject is enough _(seit ich in München bin und hier Konzerte besuche).



_But the fact that there's a subject in the main clause doesn't mean there needn't be any in the subordinate clause, and vice versa.


----------



## Glockenblume

lodoletta said:


> I cannot understand, do you mean to begin haupsätze with the same subject?
> 
> Like "Ich heiße Cecilia und ich bin 33 Jahre alt", that would be better "Ich heiße Cecilia und bin 33 Jahre alt"?



Yes, for example.

But also texts like:

"Ich heiße Cecilia. Ich wurde 1981 geboren." > better: "Ich heiße Cecilia. Geboren wurde ich 1981."


----------



## lodoletta

Schimmelreiter said:


> But the fact that there's a subject in the main clause doesn't mean there needn't be any in the subordinate clause, and vice versa.



One moment, too many "not"... 

If I have a main clause and I pass to a subordinate one, I have to repeat the subject, right? 

Thank you and sorry for my stupid questions... my German level is really low, but I try to learn it the most correctly it is possible (to me...)


----------



## lodoletta

Glockenblume said:


> Yes, for example.
> 
> 
> "Ich heiße Cecilia. Ich wurde 1981 geboren." > better: "Ich heiße Cecilia. Geboren wurde ich 1981."



For example, a sentence like the second one would be impossible to me, because I try to remember that the verb is always in position 2! In the second sentence !Geboren wurde" is in position 1... or not? Is it an exception? 

German is really really difficult!


----------



## Schimmelreiter

lodoletta said:


> One moment, too many "not"...


There must be at least one subject for the one or two main clauses.
There must be at least one subject for the one or two subordinate clauses.




lodoletta said:


> Geboren wurde is in position 1... or not?


Position 1: _Geboren_
Position 2: the *finite* verb _(wurde)_

Quite according to the rule.


----------



## lodoletta

"geboren" is meant as adjective and not as Past Partizip of "gebären"?


----------



## berndf

lodoletta said:


> I have a question, the teacher of my course told me it that sound a little bit strange to repeat always the subject, if it is the same of the Hauptsatz, but maybe I misunderstood... there is a defined rule?


Omitting a repeated subject is only possible in a sequence of _Hauptsätze_ representing a causal, logical or coincidental succession, not in a sequence of _Hauptsatz _and _Nebensatz_. Examples where it is possible:


_Ich kam, sah und siegte_ (causal; German translation of Caesar's _Veni, vidi, vici_).
_Ich pflückte den Apfel und aß ihn sofort_ (causal).
_Ich sag den das Flugzeug über das Haus fliegen, hörte einen Hund bellen und nahm neinen beißenden Geruch war _(coincidental).
_Immer wenn er nach abends nach Hause kam, goss er sich einen Whisky an, zündete sich eine Zigarre ab, holte ein Buch aus dem Schrank und machte es sich auf dem Sofa gemütlich_ (mixture of causal and coincidental).
_Wenn eine Folge eine streng monotone Folge absolut beschränkt ist, so ist sie auch eine Cauchy-Folge und konvergiert. _(logical)


----------



## berndf

lodoletta said:


> "geboren" is meant as adjective and not as Past Partizip of "gebären"?


There is syntactically no difference. Participles always function as adjectives (unless they are adverbialized or nominalized).


----------



## lodoletta

Thank you berndf, all the explanations are really clear. Thanks to everybody!


----------

