# Persian: la:m



## Daffodil100

View attachment 11552

Hello. 

I don't understand small Farsi letter- ل when it attached to ا . in the screenshot as I attached. There are two forms, but I cannot recognize where ا are in both two words. It seems to me the first letter for both two words are ه 

Could you please separate letters for the two Farsi words in the attachment for me? For example, book ( b - o-o-k) , so I can recognize the Farsi letters.

Besides that, how to write two small ل ? Is there anyway to let me know?

Many thanks


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I guess the second letter is alef in the words. Am I correct?


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## Qureshpor

^ m-l-aa-l, l-aa, m-l-aa-l, l-aa, aa

In the second "laa", the alif at the top of the word, in spacial terms, appears first and joins the base of the letter laam to the left. I hope you can follow this.


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## Alfaaz

The word in the text is ملال _malaal_, that is م ل ا ل (meem + laam + alif + laam). (Here is a picture from the title of an Urdu television drama that might be clearer) What the description is trying to explain is that laam + alif can be written in two different ways/styles. It seems they didn't use a good font, which could be causing the confusion. This will probably be a clearer picture and description of the two forms. 


			
				Daffodil100 said:
			
		

> Besides that, how to write two small ل ? Is there anyway to let me know?


Two laams written together would look like this لل.


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## darush

Hello Daffodil,

لا=آ+ل or in third form in ملال (second one at the attachment; similar to a narrow 'u').
ملال /malaal/( means sorrow)

Two ل s example:
ملل /melal/(nations)
بین المللی /beyn al-me-la-li/(International)


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## Daffodil100

Thank you for all the help.


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## fdb

I do not know where you found this screen shot. lām plus alif is written لا . The other three forms in the screen shot are wrong. mīm + lam + alif is ملا .


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## marrish

fdb said:


> I do not know where you found this screen shot. lām plus alif is written لا . The other three forms in the screen shot are wrong. mīm + lam + alif is ملا .


I'm afraid I can't agree with this. IMHO what is written in the attachment is right.


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## marrish

I'm sorry I can't edit the above post any more, I wanted to say to Daffodil100 that I am absolutely sure you have got the correct information and I hope you are not going to be mislead by post #6. It would be a pity to have wrong information at these basic steps towards Persian.


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## eskandar

I agree with fdb here. The only time you will see the erroneous ligatures displayed in the image on the right are in places where a computer or typesetting error has prevented the text from being displayed correctly. The source looks like easypersian.com though I could be wrong on that.


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## marrish

eskandar said:


> I agree with fdb here. The only time you will see the erroneous ligatures displayed in the image on the right are in places where a computer or typesetting error has prevented the text from being displayed correctly. The source looks like easypersian.com though I could be wrong on that.


Once again, I disagree. Whatever the source might be, it is correct.


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## fdb

I am not sure whether we are all seeing the same image on the screen or whether this is a computer/font problem. I repeat that all the ligatures on the image on my screen are wrong/illiterate/ugly apart from the first one: لا .


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## marrish

fdb said:


> I am not sure whether we are all seeing the same image on the screen or whether this is a computer/font problem. I repeat that all the ligatures on the image on my screen are wrong/illiterate/ugly apart from the first one: لا .


While I agree that the images are quite unpleasant to the eye, I can't see any way to agree with your repeated statement about their incorrectness.


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## Treaty

You should consider that the attached picture is written (or drawn) in a single font. In different fonts and styles, the writing of لا and ـلا may differ. Anyway, I agree with fdb that لا should not come after an attaching letter (at least, I've never seen it). Here shows both لا and ـلا in different fonts (in word ملالا):


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## marrish

Treaty said:


> You should consider that the attached picture is written (or drawn) in a single font. In different fonts and styles, the writing of لا and ـلا may differ. Anyway, I agree with fdb that لا should not come after an attaching letter (at least, I've never seen it). Here shows both لا and ـلا in different fonts (in word ملالا): View attachment 11564


Whatever be the fonts on the computer, I agree that the writing of laa can differ. Still I don't understand how you could find  a way to agree with fdb since he has clearly discareded and deemed wrong all other forms apart from the first one. At least, fdb has not been clear on the matter of the joined letter to laa.

Edit: due to technical issues I'm unable to substantiate my claim although it was not I who has made a claim without any backing, questioning the source and the original poster. I hope I can be back tomorrow, as soon as I manage to bring my computer system to the desired state.

At this opportunity let me say it clearly that the question of computer problems or wrong display of the text is not applicable as the OP provided an attachment in a picture format.


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## Treaty

marrish said:


> Whatever be the fonts on the computer, I agree that the writing of laa can differ. Still I don't understand how you could find  a way to agree with fdb since he has clearly discareded and deemed wrong all other forms apart from the first one. At least, fdb has not been clear on the matter of the joined letter to laa.



Basically, there are four types of _LA_ in Daffodil's image: ɣ-shape and U-shape, each in two situations (joined to and detached from م). 
Fdb agrees on the detached ɣ-shape _LA_, and rejects the other three. I think he made it clear about joining/detaching as he proposed a joined form (ملا) that matches the second (from left) font in my example.

I agree with fdb *only* on the rejection of the joined ɣ-shaped _LA_ [in current Persian writing*]. I disagree with fdb on his rejection of the other _LA_s.

Anyway, comparing the pre-installed fonts on Windows, I personally recommend the sans-serif Tahoma as a good example of simple, legible and visually pleasant font. In addition, many people prefer using the same _LA _in both joined and detached situations: 
ملالا

* Actually, the joined ɣ-shape is one of the oldest types of writing _LA_. It can be found in Kufi calligraphy of early post-Islamic texts. You can find it in Andalus font in Windows. However, it is not common in current fonts and styles of Persian writing.


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## Daffodil100

Everyone, thank you for your attention. 

The source is from Easy Persian an online Persian Learning Website.

Here is the URL link.  In 27, it is introduced that la:m  has different writings. 

http://www.easypersian.com/farsi/lesson-8/


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## Daffodil100

Could any of you tell me how to write lam alef in the middle such as salam? I can type it via computer, but I don't know the stroke orders. The URL link Alfaaz helped me how to write lam initial, but I am not clear about in the middle. 

 ملا

Am I right about the follow steps?

1. L

2. down stroke

3. upward stroke


Thank you!


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## Treaty

It depends on calligraphy style. This is probably the simplest one to start with:

1. لـ : like you write English "J", just don't curve the bottom too much:
    .  a) put it in a way that its corner joins the letter before (if there is any). 
2. _\_ : alef is like a backslash, again, start from top to bottom. Just be careful that:
    .  a) the top of the alef is at the same level with the top of لـ
    .  b) the top of the alef is almost as left as the left end of لـ is
    .  c) the bottom of alef should be somewhere on or near the horizontal line (or the corner arc) of لـ  (whenever you like)
    .  d) be consistent in all your لا s. Especially on the place you put the bottom of alef.

Good luck.


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## Daffodil100

Thank you very much for your illustration. Without your help, I didn't know which stoke stands for alef in lam alef. Now I am clear about both writing and letters. 

Have a good day!


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## marrish

Re. my post #14, I hope that this picture View attachment 11568 removes all doubts.


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## fdb

The problem, dear Marrish, is that there are different styles of Arabic/Persian calligraphy. Your sample is nastaʻlīq. The on-line textbook is pretending to teach naskh. Both styles are legitimate, but you must not mix them.


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## eskandar

Even if the original image were teaching nasta'liq, it would still be wrong. In nasta'liq, the bottom of the laam should extend to the left slightly past where the alif attaches (which you can see if you look closely at Marrish sahib's image); this is not the case in the original image from Easypersian.com, where the laam-alif looks like a blocky U. It is not correct in any context.


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