# All Indo-Iranian Languages: dhreugh - dhroughos



## hindiurdu

There's a thread called PIE *dhroughos and *dhreugh in the etymology and language history section. It talks about how -



*dhreugh, deceit >German trügen >English dream - this is identical to the Sanskrit dhrog, which is the Hindi-Urdu droh - betrayal or revolt (deshdrohi)
*dhroughos, companion/friend >Lithuanian draugas >Russian drug friend - my question is what is the Sanskrit or Hindi-Urdu descendent of this?

The thread speculates that *dhreugh and *dhroughos may be related. Happy also to hear if there are Persian equivalents. Thanks!


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## UrduMedium

^ This sounds eerily close to Urdu _daroGh _(دروغ, via Persian) meaning lie or falsehood.


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> ^ This sounds eerily close to Urdu _daroGh _(دروغ, via Persian) meaning lie or falsehood.



Let me use this opportunity to point out, _baa ijaazat_, that here *daroGh* is the one that sounds eerily close to Urdu and Persian _*duroGh*, _which on its turn, does so much closer to Hindi/Urdu_ *droh*._


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> Let me use this opportunity to point out, _baa ijaazat_, that here *daroGh* is the one that sounds eerily close to Urdu and Persian _*duroGh*, _which on its turn, does so much closer to Hindi/Urdu_ *droh*._



I don't know about Persian but in Urdu I have always heard _daroGh_. Checked a couple of places to confirm:

Platts: P 
دروغ_darog̠ [old P. darauga; Pehl. darog; Zend draogha, fr. druj = S. drogha, rt. druh], adj. & s.m. Lying, false;—a lie, falsehood (syn. jhūṭ):—darog̠-ě-ḥalfī or darog̠-ḥalfī, s.m. False swearing, perjury:—darog̠-go, s.m. A liar:—darog̠-goʼī, s.f. False speaking, lying:—ba-rāh-ě-darog̠-goʼī, adv. Falsely.

OUD: 

  دَروغ
*فارسی زبان سے ماخوذ اسم ہے۔ اردو میں اپنے اصل معنی اور حالت کے ساتھ بطور اسم ہی مستعمل ہے اور تحریراً 1649ء سے "خاور نامہ" میں مستعمل ملتا ہے۔*
​_


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## marrish

Since the OP question asked about Persian I thought it was right to correct the pronunciation, but now you say it is _daroGh_, I stand perplexed. It has always been _duroGh_, in Urdu too, as per my experience.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> Since the OP question asked about Persian I thought it was right to correct the pronunciation, but now you say it is _daroGh_, I stand perplexed. It has always been _duroGh_, in Urdu too, as per my experience.


Just to clarify, it not just that I'm saying it, but I also shared two dictionary references above. Again, not for Persian, but for Urdu.


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Just to clarify, it not just that I'm saying it, but I also shared two dictionary references above. Again, not for Persian, but for Urdu.


That is why I said I'd been perplexed! I cannot recall any text passage in favour of the one I suggested as it of course I'm sure you know would be very difficult, but I must admit, _daroGh_ is acceptable as well, in the light of your references!


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> That is why I said I'd been perplexed! I cannot recall any text passage in favour of the one I suggested as it of course I'm sure you know would be very difficult, but I must admit, _daroGh_ is acceptable as well, in the light of your references!



Just now I checked Feroz-ul-Lughat Jami3 also. Like Platts and OUD, it also _only _lists _daroGh_. It also lists a proverb, "*daroGh *ko *faroGh *nahiiN", where the obvious rhyme also confirms the pronunciation. Based on all this, _daroGh _sounds like the standard pronunciation in Urdu.


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## hindiurdu

Hmmm .... Platts is listing the Sanskrit as Drogha and the Avestan as Draogha, which means the person who provided the Sanskrit listing in the other thread was probably wrong. Thank you for the reference UM. 'Darogh ko farogh nahin' - love it!

What about my other question? *dhroughos = companion. Anything here in S/H/U/P?


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## UrduMedium

Just searched the forum for this word. Seems like three of our _akaabir _have already endorsed the *daroGh *pronunciation. BP saahab here, Fayalsoof saahab here, and surprise! janaab-i-marrish here.


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## greatbear

hindiurdu said:


> What about my other question? *dhroughos = companion. Anything here in S/H/U/P?



_dhruv_, probably? (Means "constant, everlasting").


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Just searched the forum for this word. Seems like three of our _akaabir _have already endorsed the *daroGh *pronunciation. BP saahab here, Fayalsoof saahab here, and surprise! janaab-i-marrish here.


Brilliant observation, UM SaaHib! I have a feeling that Faylasoof SaaHib's slip is a result of copy-paste technique, but I have also an excuse !


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Since the OP question asked about Persian I thought it was right to correct the pronunciation, but now you say it is _daroGh_, I stand perplexed. It has always been _duroGh_, in Urdu too, as per my experience.



Worry not, marrish SaaHib. (Steingass)

دروغ _durog̠ẖ (S. druh, drughdha), A *lie*, falsehood;--durog̠ẖ āwardan (pardaḵẖtan, zadan), To say or commit a falsehood;--durog̠ẖ bāftan (bastan bar kase), To feign a lie and pass it upon anyone.

(Hayyim)

دروغ (doroogh) Noun A lie, a falsehood. [Used often as an adj. Thus: حرف دروغ a false (or untrue) ﻿

Farhang-i-Asifiyyah has it as "duroGh" too.

Furthermore, the word is "furoGh", so the rhyme still stands!_


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## souminwé

dhru(vati) seems to have a faint relationship to dhreugh* and dhrowghos* through its relation to dhurv- and dhvri- (both meaning to kill). However, 

The "Old Iranian" descendant of dhrowghos* seems to be _drong_ (mob, squad, army)- I haven't found a similar word in Persian but there might be in Pashto or Kurdish (source: http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwen/etymlicz.html) 

Based on that, I wonder if Sanskrit_ dranga_ (town) is in anyway related.

As for dhreugh*, Sanskrit _drogha _(using malicious words) maybe related as well (EDIT: eh, so much for making connections, it seems to be just another form of _druh-_)


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Worry not, marrish SaaHib. (Steingass)
> 
> دروغ _durog̠ẖ (S. druh, drughdha), A *lie*, falsehood;--durog̠ẖ āwardan (pardaḵẖtan, zadan), To say or commit a falsehood;--durog̠ẖ bāftan (bastan bar kase), To feign a lie and pass it upon anyone.
> 
> (Hayyim)
> 
> دروغ (doroogh) Noun A lie, a falsehood. [Used often as an adj. Thus: حرف دروغ a false (or untrue) ﻿
> 
> Farhang-i-Asifiyyah has it as "duroGh" too.
> 
> Furthermore, the word is "furoGh", so the rhyme still stands!_


_

_Thanks for that. I was preparing a longer response or a new thread on something like futuur-fatuur, duroGh-daroGh, furoGh-faroGh about the rhyme because I really knew UM SaaHib was going to give it unto consideration. Very likely there were different channels that these words entered the speech.

I'm not saying that I'm not familiar with fa, da.


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## souminwé

Made another big mistake guys! OIr. stands for Old Irish, not Old Iranian. So, although Irish _drong _might be related to Sanskrit_ dranga_, the connection is too distant for one to suggest the other. Perhaps it is fortunate that I accidentally made this connection, because I can't find a form for dhrowghos* in either Avestan, Old Persian or Sanskrit. Maybe this is it (strongly doubt it)

Any form that I have dug up as a descendant of dhrowghos* has shown itself to be from dhreugh* (druhyati, droh, drugdha (droh+kta), dhrokSyati, drogha; source: http://indogermanisch.org/pokorny-etymologisches-woerterbuch/dhreugh-2.htm).

dhru(vati) seems to have some connection to dhreugh*, but is apparently ultimately related to daaru/dru-; "wood" (OPers. "duruva" steady; same source as above)

Assuming that dhrowghos* is derived from dhreugh* and just means "one who dhreugh*s", then it is possible that it was just lost/re-analysed in Indo-Iranian. 
Or worse, was simply never written down o.o
But of course, I can't make this claim yet without much more thorough research.


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Worry not, marrish SaaHib. (Steingass)
> 
> دروغ _durog̠ẖ (S. druh, drughdha), A *lie*, falsehood;--durog̠ẖ āwardan (pardaḵẖtan, zadan), To say or commit a falsehood;--durog̠ẖ bāftan (bastan bar kase), To feign a lie and pass it upon anyone.
> 
> (Hayyim)
> 
> دروغ (doroogh) Noun A lie, a falsehood. [Used often as an adj. Thus: حرف دروغ a false (or untrue) ﻿
> 
> Farhang-i-Asifiyyah has it as "duroGh" too.
> 
> Furthermore, the word is "furoGh", so the rhyme still stands!_


Question: So you say these as _duroGh_ and _furoGh_, QP saahab? In Urdu, of course. 

I noticed you used _faroGh _here, and here.


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## UrduMedium

marrish said:


> Brilliant observation, UM SaaHib! I have a feeling that Faylasoof SaaHib's slip is a result of copy-paste technique, but I have also an excuse !


Hopefully Faylasoof saahab can clarify his usage. To me it does not seem a "slip".


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> [/I]Question: So you say these as _duroGh_ and _furoGh_, QP saahab? In Urdu, of course.
> 
> I noticed you used _faroGh _here, and here.



No, I say "jhuuT" (not jhuuTh)! Have n't you heard, "Do as I say not as I do"?!


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Hopefully Faylasoof saahab can clarify his usage. To me it does not seem a "slip".


I know QP SaaHib is going to throw a boot at me but I can explain my ''slip'' as Punjabi influence!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I know QP SaaHib is going to throw a boot at me but I can explain my ''slip'' as Punjabi influence!



Now, just because I don't throw "chappals" at ladies, it does n't mean that my size 10 boot, as you put it, is not going to find suitable targets amongst the gents! It's good to come clean and make a confession even if it is at the expense of the Punjabis! But ever since when has UM SaaHib been keeping company with them to be so attached to "daroGh"? On a serious note all of us know that both forms are known in Urdu.


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Now, just because I don't throw "chappals" at ladies, it does n't mean that my size 10 boot, as you put it, is not going to find suitable targets amongst the gents! It's good to come clean and make a confession even if it is at the expense of the Punjabis! But ever since when has UM SaaHib been keeping company with them to be so attached to "daroGh"? On a serious note all of us know that both forms are known in Urdu.


Yes, I'd forgotten that you mentioned the size somewhere else otherwise I wouldn't have risked in any way! Of course both forms are known in Urdu, but duroGh is the one which I prefer as the correct one.


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## Dhira Simha

Please clarify, where you got the alleged Skr. dhrog from. As far as I know, there are no words starting with dhro- in Sanskrit.
As for Lith. draugas and Rus. drug, there are no officially recognised cognates, however Skr. druha "son or daughter" seems very plausible.

Perhaps  you can find interesting this site where parts of the new  "Russian-Sanskrit Dictionary of Common and Cognate Words" are being  published at
borissoff.wordpress.com.  Check the "Current project" page. On the blog page there is an interesting attempt to interpret a whole passage of a Russian poem via Sanskrit.


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## hindiurdu

Dhira Simha said:


> Please clarify, where you got the alleged Skr. dhrog from. As far as I know, there are no words starting with dhro- in Sanskrit.
> As for Lith. draugas and Rus. drug, there are no officially recognised cognates, however Skr. druha "son or daughter" seems very plausible.



The alleged 'dhrog' is wrong, as previously noted. It came from the previous thread (see original post here). The correct Sanskrit word in the ref UrduMedium posted is 'drogha'.



Dhira Simha said:


> Perhaps  you can find interesting this site where parts of the new  "Russian-Sanskrit Dictionary of Common and Cognate Words" are being  published at
> borissoff.wordpress.com.  Check the "Current project" page. On the blog page there is an interesting attempt to interpret a whole passage of a Russian poem via Sanskrit.



Wow, this Sanskrit-Russian cognate list is excellent (http://borissoff.wordpress.com/current-project/). Thank you!


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## Dhira Simha

Thank you!
I hope you liked the post "Complex  Russian text analysed  with the help of Sanskrit" as well.

As for <*_dhreugh,_ deceit>German _trügen_ >English _dream_> I have serious doubts that Skr. _drogha_ द्रोघ  is related to the imaginary IE *_dhreugh_.  Skr. _drogha_, as you  know, is derived from the root _druh_ "to hurt, seek to harm, be hostile to". Although it was mentioned in RV and in dhātupāṭha (_druha jighāṃsāyām_) 
 it is a rather obscure root, but it is definitely related to _dru _"to hurt, injure".  Semantically,  the connection between  _trügen_ "to deceive, delude," and _druh_ "to hurt, seek to harm, be hostile to"  is very slim indeed.  Even more improbable is  to connect _trügen_ "to deceive, delude" and _dream_. It is a well accepted fact that _dream_ as well as Slavonic  _dremat' and _Lat._ dormio _ are related to Skr. _drai _"to sleep".  I even have an explanation for the medial /m/.  There is no connection whatsoever between Skr _druh, drogha_ and Slavonic _drug_ "friend".


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## souminwé

You've put forth some very interesting and novel (to me, anyways) ideas. What are your references, I too want read up on this.


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## Dhira Simha

souminwé said:


> You've put forth some very interesting and  novel (to me, anyways) ideas. What are your references, I too want read  up on this.


As you might have figured out, I am no big fan of  the German induced "reconstructions"  so I take them very  cautiously  and with a pinch of salt. I prefer to rely on attested  languages  and linguistic facts. I believe you use the electronic version of the  Monier Williams' Sanskrit-English Dictionary (See  the link at borissoff.wordpress.com/useful liks). This is a convenient  starting point.  I also use _Russisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch _by Max Vasmer a lot.  Particularly for this post  I looked up the entry for  rus.  dremat'.  Unfortunately, it is available online only in Russian. This is what is  says on dremat' "sleep" (my translation):
<ORIGIN: Related Lat. dormiō, dormīre "sleep", etc., etc., ind. drāti, drāyatē "sleeps" in Greek. δαρθάνω "sleep", aor. ἔδραθε; see Uhlenbeck, Aind. Wb. 132; Berneker 1, 223 et seq.; Mladenov 153 Buazak 167; Trautman, BSW 60>.

Then I looked-up the word "dream" in the on-line etymological dictionary:
This is the text, to save the time:
 dream (n.) 
mid-13c. in the sense "sequence of sensations  passing through a sleeping person's mind" (also as a verb), probably  related to O.N. draumr, Dan. drøm, Swed. dröm, O.S. drom "merriment, noise," O.Fris. dram "dream," Du. droom, O.H.G. troum, Ger. traum "dream," perhaps from W.Gmc. *draugmas "deception, illusion, phantasm" (cf. O.S. bidriogan, O.H.G. triogan, Ger. trügen "to deceive, delude," O.N. draugr "ghost, apparition"). Possible cognates outside Germanic are Skt. druh- "seek to harm, injure," Avestan druz- "lie, deceive." But O.E. dream meant only "joy, mirth," also "music." Words for "sleeping vision" in O.E. were mæting and swefn (from PIE *swep-no-; cf. Gk. hypnos). 

This dictionary is not strictly academic but  pretty convenient. As you can see "dream" was reluctantly linked to Skt. druh- "seek to harm, injure," Avestan druz- "lie, deceive" but  it looks very implausible. Combining this with Vasmer's  link to drāti, drāyatē (root drai) , you may safely discard "dream" from your analysis.

As for Rus drug "friend", it has never been linked to *dreugh. Again from Vasmer (my translation):

ORIGIN: Related Lith. draugas "companion, comrade," Latv. draugs, Old Prussian. draugiwaldūnen  "co-heir," O.Ialand. draugr (poet.) "husband" (Holthausen, Awn. Wb. 39), Goth. driugan στρατεύειν, A.Sax. dreogan "to do and achieve," Goth. gadrauhts στρατιώτης, O.-H.-Germ. trucht "a detachment of soldiers, Formation," O.-H.-Ger. truhtin "warlord, Prince," Lith. sudrugti "join", see Berneker 1, 230 et seq., Troutman, Apr. Sprd. 322 et seq.; BSW 59, 214 Thorpe, M. - E. 3, 492; Frankel, BSpr. 109. Here do not relate directly [...] Lat. drungus "detachment", Mid-Greek. δροῦγγος "detachment" from the Old-Irish. drong "crowd, the team", see Walde - Gofm. 1, 374 et seq.

I have my own view on this word which it is not relevant here but, at least,   you can   exclude Rus/Lith  drug/draugas  from your analysis and narrow down your search.


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