# dream / ambition



## ger4

In English, the noun 'dream' can express very different concepts. An example:

'The Dream of a Ridiculous Man' (Fyodor Dostoyevsky) vs. 'I Have a Dream' (Martin Luther King)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_a_Ridiculous_Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream

Some languages use the same noun, other languages - such as Polish and Russian -  seem to distinguish between these two different ideas:

German: 'Der Traum eines lächerlichen Menschen' vs. 'Ich habe einen Traum'
French: 'Le rêve d'un homme ridicule' vs. 'Je fais un rêve'
Polish: 'Sen śmiesznego człowieka' vs. 'Mam marzenie'
Russian: 'Сон смешного человека' vs. 'У меня есть мечта'

(Native speakers please correct any mistakes)

How about your language? Do you express the distinction between the dream you dream while sleeping on the one hand and 'dream' as in 'ambition', 'wish', 'daydream' etc on the other hand? Do you make different distinctions? To some degree, it is possible to find answers in dictionaries, of course, but sometimes those clear-cut dictionary-style definitions don't really seem to reflect (and can't be expected to reflect) the complexity of language so I'd like to ask here. Any explanations, examples and thoughts appreciated!

Edit: This thread could also have been named 'Between dreams and ambitions' as it is hardly possible to draw any clear dividing lines in between all those expressions. 

These are a just few examples for English-Russian and Russian-English dictionary entries on the topic of 'dream':
English-Russian 'dream': http://de.pons.com/übersetzung?q=dream&l=enru&in=ac_en&lf=en
Russian-English 'cон'/'son': http://translate.academic.ru/?q=сон&f=ru&t=en&stype=1
Russian_English 'мечта'/'mechta': http://translate.academic.ru/?q=мечта&f=ru&t=en&stype=1


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## mataripis

Tagalog has panaginip for night dream, kahilingan for wish, pangarap for plan/dream house and hangad, mithiin for ambition.


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## Evgeniy

You correctly stated that in Russian these concepts are separated, only I'd like to mention that the Russian сон could in principle refer to daydreaming, but of an unwillingful kind, driven by the fate more than by the human himself, so to say; for example: другие дни — другие сны. (With other days come other thoughts). So, the line of separation may be a little more blurred, but still most usually it's exactly the way you describe. It seems that I finally understood which aspect always has been so "strange" and "counter-intuitive" for me in the English way of convergence of the concepts: one does not control one's nightdreams, so from the point of view of an observing human, "daydreams" and "nightdreams" are completely different things, combining which in one word looks really weird. However, from the point of view of describing objective essence of things, such convergence is perfectly rational, as in both cases a person sees or imagines something that does not exist. A difference in the approaches catched?.. A coincidence?..


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## ger4

Mataripis and Evgeniy, thank you for your explanations. It is interesting to see that both Tagalog and Russian, two languages not necessarily closely related to each other, seem to make distinctions along similar lines: unintended/uncontrolled/unconscious dreaming versus intended/'self-controlled'/conscious dreaming. I wonder if this concept might actually be much more widespread across the languages of the world than the (western?) concept of having one word or at least one generic expression for both of these different concepts. 

Looking for 'Martin Luther King - I Have Dream' in the Tagalog version of Wikipedia, I found this translation: 'Mayroon akong Pangarap' - 'pangarap' as Mataritis described it:


mataripis said:


> Tagalog has panaginip for night dream, kahilingan for wish, pangarap for plan/dream house and hangad, mithiin for ambition.



Having learned all of that now, it would be interesting to hear from speakers of other languages as well... 

Relying on Wiki's wisdom (again: any corrections/suggestions welcome) I found some more translations for 
(1) The Dream of a Ridiculous Man (Dostoyevsky)
(2) I Have a Dream (MLK)

Ukrainian: (1) Сон смішної людині  (2) Я маю мрію
Belarussian: (1) Сон сьмешнага чалавека (2) У мяне ёсць мара
Finnish: (1) Naurettavan ihmisen uni (2) Minulla on unelma

Edit: Dolnoserbski (Lower Sorbian), a Slavic language spoken by a minority in some parts of eastern Germany, seems to make similar distinctions: 
http://www.dolnoserbski.de/dnw/ 

Edit: According to this online dictionary (bolor-toli.com), Mongolian makes several distinctions here as well:
http://www.bolor-toli.com/index.php?pageId=10&go=1&direction=mn-en&search=зүүд 
> züüd - dream, sleeping vision, ...
> ajdas hürmèèr züüd - ghastly dreams
> har darsan züüd - nightmare
http://www.bolor-toli.com/index.php?pageId=10&go=1&direction=mn-en&search=зөгнөл
> zôgnôl - dream, preconception, prediction, ...
> šinžlèh uhaany uran zôgnôl - science fiction 
http://www.bolor-toli.com/index.php?pageId=10&go=1&direction=mn-en&search=хүслэн
> hüslèn - dream, craving, striving, ideal, longing, desire, wish, ...
> am'drah hüslèn - desire to live
> hüslèn boloh - expect impatiently
> hüslèn bolson - eager
http://www.bolor-toli.com/index.php?pageId=10&go=1&direction=mn-en&search=гоо+үзэсгэлэн
> goo üzèsgèlèn - dream, grace, fascination, ...
> uulyn nuuryn goo üzesgèlèn - the charm of a mountain lake


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## Evgeniy

"Мечтать" can mean and often means unfocused dreaming as well (я сижу и мечтаю ни о чём — I am sitting and dreaming about nothing, i.e. about a lot of accidental things), only the point is, even such dreaming is either caused or approved  by waking consciousness, or even directed somewhat by it, which is not the case for those dreams that a human is in no position to control, that have nothing to do with him.


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## ger4

Evgeniy said:


> "Мечтать" can mean and often means unfocused dreaming as well (я сижу и мечтаю ни о чём — I am sitting and dreaming about nothing, i.e. about a lot of accidental things), only the point is, even such dreaming is either caused or approved  by waking consciousness, or even directed somewhat by it, which is not the case for those dreams that a human is in no position to control, that have nothing to do with him.


Thank you. I'll edit my previous post slightly (correcting a typing error in the process...) The "definitions" I've tried to come up with so far should remain as "open" as possible.

---
It would be interesting to see how this sentence mentinoned by Evgeniy...


> я сижу и мечтаю ни о чём — I am sitting and dreaming about nothing


... translates into other languages, and whether or not the expression used for 'dream' (here as a verb) is the same as the one you would use for 'to dream while sleeping' in your own language.


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## apmoy70

Hi Holger2014,

Greek falls into the same category with English, German, and French; your examples:
«Το όνειρο ενός γελοίου» [to ˈoniɾo eˈnos ʝeˈli.u]
«Έχω ένα όνειρο» [ˈexo ˈena ˈoniɾo].
In both cases we use the neuter noun *«όνειρο»* [ˈoniɾo] --> _dream,  anything unreal or fleeting, aspiration_ < Classical neut. noun *«ὄνειρον» όneirŏn*, archaic *«ὄνειρος» óneirŏs* (masc.), Homeric *«ὄναρ» ónār* (neut.) --> _dream, anything unreal or fleeting, god of dreams (the masc. noun)_ (PIE *h₃ner-io-, _dream_ cf Arm. անուրջ (anurj), Alb. ëndërr)


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## ger4

apmoy70 said:


> [...]In both cases we use the neuter noun *«όνειρο»* [ˈoniɾo] --> _dream,  anything unreal or fleeting, aspiration_ < Classical neut. noun *«ὄνειρον» όneirŏn*, archaic *«ὄνειρος» óneirŏs* (masc.), Homeric *«ὄναρ» ónār* (neut.) --> _dream, anything unreal or fleeting, god of dreams (the masc. noun)_ (PIE *h₃ner-io-, _dream_ cf Arm. Alb. ëndërr, Alb. ëndërr)


Thank you for providing all this information including the translation of the two example sentences. Interesting to learn that Greek *«όνειρο» *seems to have a rather generic meaning, similar to English "dream", German "Traum", French "rêve" etc. Apart from that it is interesting to see that *«όνειρο» *is related to Albanian "ëndërr" as well as to Armenian "անուրջ (anurj)" - up to now I thought Armenian, despite being an Indo-European language, had changed phonetically so much that any similarities with other IE languages were hard to detect but apparently the pronunciation "anurj" isn't worlds apart from the Greek and Albanian versions. - Trying to find out whether Albanian "ëndërr" has a similar (generic) meaning as the related Greek noun I checked out this online-dictionary which provides not only translations but also some example sentences: https://glosbe.com/en/sq/dream. Apparently, the Albanian term has a rather generic meaning as well. By contrast, Armenian seems to make several distinctions: 



> https://glosbe.com/en/hy/dream
> (1) երազ - eraz ~ dream, imaginary events seen in the mind while sleeping
> (2) անուրջ - anurj ~ dream,  imaginary events seen while sleeping (same as above or a subtle difference?)
> (3) երազանք - erazank ~ dream, hope, wish
> Apparently, (1) and (2) have similar meanings but a different word stem, while (1) and (3) seem to have rather different meanings but the same stem


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## apmoy70

Holger2014 said:


> Thank you for providing all this information including the translation of the two example sentences. Interesting to learn that Greek *«όνειρο» *seems to have a rather generic meaning, similar to English "dream", German "Traum", French "rêve" etc. Apart from that it is interesting to see that *«όνειρο» *is related to Albanian "ëndërr" as well as to Armenian "անուրջ (anurj)" - up to now I thought Armenian, despite being an Indo-European language, had changed phonetically so much that any similarities with other IE languages were hard to detect but apparently the pronunciation "anurj" isn't worlds apart from the Greek and Albanian versions. - Trying to find out whether Albanian "ëndërr" has a similar (generic) meaning as the related Greek noun I checked out this online-dictionary which provides not only translations but also some example sentences: https://glosbe.com/en/sq/dream. Apparently, the Albanian term has a rather generic meaning as well. By contrast, Armenian seems to make several distinctions:


Haven't you heard about the Graeco-Armenian hypothesis? There's an interesting wiki entry about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian


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## Gavril

Holger2014 said:


> Finnish: (1) Naurettavan ihmisen uni (2) Minulla on unelma



Yes, _uni _means either "sleep" or "dream" (in the sense of what you experience during sleep), and _unelma_ or _haave _means "dream" in the sense of "wish".

I am not sure if _unelma _and _haave_ are full synonyms, or if there are any nuances differentiating them. According to the Kielitoimiston sanakirja dictionary, _haave_ is often used to refer to an unrealistic-seeming wish (_epärealistiselta tuntuva toive_), and I'm not sure if this applies quite as much to _unelma_.


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## ger4

Gavril said:


> Yes, _uni _means either "sleep" or "dream" (in the sense of what you experience during sleep), and _unelma_ or _haave _means "dream" in the sense of "wish".
> 
> I am not sure if _unelma _and _haave_ are full synonyms, or if there are any nuances differentiating them. According to the Kielitoimiston sanakirja dictionary, _haave_ is often used to refer to an unrealistic-seeming wish (_epärealistiselta tuntuva toive_), and I'm not sure if this applies quite as much to _unelma_.


Kiitos. Even though I've been 'dabbling' in Finnish for a while, my knowledge of the language is still pretty limited so I am glad my guesswork wasn't wrong (I double-checked with Wikipedia entries with regard to the book title and the name of the speech, otherwise I wouldn't have managed). - As for _unelma_ and _haave_: Wondering how they would translate into Russian I tried the translation tool on academia.ru and these were the results: _unelma_: _мечта/mechta_ (daydream, dream, vision, ambition, desire); _haave_: (1) _мечта/mechta_; but also _(2) грёза/gryoza_ (daydream, dream, reverie). - Other dictionary entries (Finnish-English) seem to point in the same direction:


> http://translate.academic.ru/?q=unelma&f=fi&t=en&stype=1
> > _unelma_: dream, vision, phantasm, illusion, figment, fancy, daydream, castles in the air (sic), fantasy
> http://translate.academic.ru/?q=haave&f=fi&t=en&stype=1
> > _haave_: dream, fancy, fantasy, imagination, visionary, trance, reverie, wish, impression, daydream, illusion, fantasy, fancy, desire, delusion


Of course, dictionary entries don't always manage to reflect the way expressions are used, so it would be interesting if anybody could explain whether  "haave" is part of everyday speech or rather more typical for poetic language. Does it sound more "elusive" than _unelma_?   

---
Edit: I've just noticed there is a thread on this forum on the topic of languages having _one_ noun for both "sleep" and "dream":
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=348982&highlight=dream


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## arielipi

Hebrew:
for vision-dream (i.e. i have a dream) we should use חזון khazon, though dream חלום khalom is ok as well.
dream is חלום khalom only, and a vision is חזיון khizayon.
theres also התגלמות hitgalmut, התגשמות hitgashmut, נבואה nevuah that are all related to prophet visions.


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## ger4

arielipi said:


> Hebrew:
> for vision-dream (i.e. i have a dream) we should use חזון khazon, though dream חלום khalom is ok as well.
> dream is חלום khalom only, and a vision is חזיון khizayon.
> theres also התגלמות hitgalmut, התגשמות hitgashmut, נבואה nevuah that are all related to prophet visions.


That is interesting, thank you. I noticed that both the nouns for "vision-dream" and "vision" have the same consonant combination kh-z-n (is -n part of the word stem or just an ending?). Also, "khalom", despite having different consonants, has similar vowels (a and o). Is that a coincidence? - Apparently, Hebrew has three nouns for "prophetic dreams or visions", two quite similar ones, though with different consonants, and a third one, sounding quite different.

Mari, a Finno-Ugric_language (more information here http://www.kmatsum.info/mari/eng/) seems to have an expression slightly similar to "prophetic dream" as well. This is some information I found in an English-Mari dictionary at univie.ac.at/maridict looking for a translation of "dream":


> - йуд/yüd: night (cf Finnish yö)
> - омо/omo: sleep, dream
> - йудомо/yüdomo: dream during night sleep
> - омын/omyn: dream, ambition
> - коймаш/koymash: appearance, sight; dream, make-believe, imagination; visible place
> - Коймаште кия/Koymashte kiya: It is lying in sight
> - кончымаш/konchymash: dream, illusion; conception; picture in one's mind of something one has seen; vision, hallucination, appearance; foreshadowing
> - шоныш/shonysh: thought, idea, thinking, reflection; aspiration, dream, desire; opinion
> - кöргö шоныш/körgö shonysh: inner thought
> - шоныш радам/shonysh radam: sequence of thoughts, train of thought
> - шонык/shonyk: dream, ambition
> - шонымаш/shonymash: thought, idea; dream, aspiration; desire, intention, wish, plan; thinking; opinion, point of view


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## Gavril

Holger2014 said:


> Of course, dictionary entries don't always manage to reflect the way expressions are used, so it would be interesting if anybody could explain whether  "haave" is part of everyday speech or rather more typical for poetic language.



Both _unelma_ and _haave_ are everyday words in Finnish; the question is, how synonymous are they with each other.

I asked some native Finnish speakers about this, and it seems that _unelma_ has a stronger implication of something imagined (or "daydreamed"), rather than a goal that the person will take practical steps to achieve. _haave_, on the other hand, has more of a tendency to refer to a definite real-life goal, even if this goal is very far-off or difficult to achieve. A person could have a _haave_ of becoming a professional athlete, but not necessarily an _unelma_.

Perhaps because of the practical implications of _haave_, it may be seen as a slightly less "lofty" term than _unelma_, and maybe that is why _unelma_ was chosen to translate "dream" in the "I have a dream"-speech.


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## ger4

Thank you. That's the kind of information which is difficult to find in dictionaries, textbooks etc...


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## ThomasK

In Dutch 'ambition' might perhaps be referred to *'wensdroom' *(like wishful thinking: wishing dreams), which implies that it might not be realistic...


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## williams321

Thank you. Your expression is the same as what I have found in the textbook


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## arielipi

Holger2014 said:


> That is interesting, thank you. I noticed that both the nouns for "vision-dream" and "vision" have the same consonant combination kh-z-n (is -n part of the word stem or just an ending?). Also, "khalom", despite having different consonants, has similar vowels (a and o). Is that a coincidence? - Apparently, Hebrew has three nouns for "prophetic dreams or visions", two quite similar ones, though with different consonants, and a third one, sounding quite different.


actually, the root is kh-z-y/h; the n is a suffix. in hebrew we have mishqalim, or templates - each conveying a certain meaning, some roots fit to the same mishqal some dont. khalom and khazon fall into the same mishqal, its not a coincidence since the mishqal katol delivers a "something that is a x".

the three other words simply happen to not fall into the same mishqal due to difference in meaning, התנבאות hitnab'ut wouldnt be equal to hitgashmut (this mishqal delivers an action the actioner does which affects himself)


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## Evgeniy

Holger2014 said:


> It seems that some languages prefer generic terms while others tend to use more specific terms (which in itself is interesting)


This question, namely preferences that languages have, is indeed very interesting. I notice that people who speak different languages not only use them differently, they also invent them, make them differently, following different patterns of meaning, of sound, of morphology and what else. Of course, language cannot have preferences, people can; the nature of these preferences must probably stem from the principles per which similar and different meanings are already classified into words in their language (_do it like it is already done_), and from kinds of thinking that are valued in their society. Now, what these principles might be?.. We are not aware of them, of course; they apparently work without our awareness. So, it is a matter for guess; in current conditions, your guess (preference of either generality or speciality for words) is just as good as something along the lines of my guess (whether in cognition a human chooses like a starting point, which is to rely on while naming a word, "objective essence of things", or apparence of things for an "observing human", i.e. observing consciousness, or anything else), or like many other guesses that I do not even imagine now. This is what I think about this bit which you call interesting, and I also do.

[ I deleted a reply to a deleted subtopic here; since the subtopic of the preceding paragraph was touched here both before and after this post, I kept that paragraph. ]


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## Evgeniy

As to the word грёза in Russian. Грёза can be either a сон (nightdream) or a мечта (daydream); what makes it a грёза is that it is unserious, light, "unnecessary" — something which should not be considered to have been put firmly in its place by any objective process or by any consideration. Why it should not be? Here we again have the question that was touched in the preceding post.


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## ger4

If we make these distinctions...  
0. sleep | 1. dream during sleep | 2. dream during sleep, significant, prophetic | 3. conscious daydream, more or less unfocused | 4. conscious dream, focused on a goal
... accepting the fact that the "dividing lines" in between them might be pretty much blurred, it seems obvious that different languages categorize the whole area of sleep/dream/daydream differently (any corrections welcome):

Spanish: 0=1=2=3=4=sueño
English: 0=sleep <> 1=2=3=4=dream
Russian: 0=1=2=сон/son <> 3=4=мечта/mechta
Finnish (see this post): 0=1=2=uni <> 3=unelma <> 4=haave
Hebrew (see this post): 1=חלום khalom <> 2=התגלמות hitgalmut, התגשמות hitgashmut, נבואה nevuah <> 3=4=חזון khazon


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## Dymn

Holger2014 said:


> Just to avoid any misunderstandings: I have deleted that post. Mentioning Dostoyevsky's "The Idiot" didn't really make sense in this context, admittedly. - For anybody who isn't familiar with Dostoyevsky's "Dream of a Ridiculous Man", this might be an interesting link:
> 
> 
> ---
> If we make these distinctions...
> 0. sleep | 1. dream during sleep | 2. dream during sleep, significant, prophetic | 3. conscious daydream, more or less unfocused | 4. conscious dream, focused on a goal
> ... accepting the fact that the "dividing lines" in between them might be pretty much blurred, it seems obvious that different languages categorize the whole area of sleep/dream/daydream differently (any corrections welcome):
> 
> Spanish: 0=1=2=3=4=sueño
> English: 0=sleep <> 1=2=3=4=dream
> Russian: 0=1=2=сон/son <> 3=4=мечта/mechta
> Finnish (see this post): 0=1=2=uni <> 3=unelma <> 4=haave
> Hebrew (see this post): 1=חלום khalom <> 2=התגלמות hitgalmut, התגשמות hitgashmut, נבואה nevuah <> 3=4=חזון khazon



Good explanations. In Catalan I would say: 0=_son_ <> 1=2=3=4=_somni_


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## Zsanna

In Hungarian *dream* can be translated by (at least) 3 forms (a good page on it here): 

*álom* (= dream, a general term used to translate both the original expresssion and book title of post no.1.)
*vágyálom* (lit. _wishdream_, otherwise: pipe-dream) a wish you nurture and hope it'll come true but usually without much chance for it to happen
*ábránd* (= fancy, fantasy, reverie) as the above but an accent on it being colourful, emotional and fancyful

P.S. The M.L. King quote should (seemingly) have been translated by _vágyálom_ originally but it would sound too much like one's own and particular "obsession" (that may concern just the speaker), this is why _álom_ is better for it, as far as I can see.


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## ger4

Diamant7 said:


> In Catalan I would say: 0=_son_ <> 1=2=3=4=_somni_


It is interesting that Catalan makes a distinction here while Spanish/castellano seems to use the same noun for "sleep" and "dream". Thank you for that explanation. 


Zsanna said:


> [...]In Hungarian *dream* can be translated by (at least) 3 forms (a good page on it here):
> *vágyálom* (lit. _wishdream_, otherwise: pipe-dream) a wish you nurture and hope it'll come true but usually without much chance for it to happen
> *ábránd* (= fancy, fantasy, reverie) as the above but an accent on it being colourful, emotional and fancyful [...]


The distinction between "vágyálom" and "ábránd" reminds me of "unelma" and "haave" in Finnish mentioned by Gavril in this post (but compare Zsanna's and Gavril's explanations below) forum.wordreference.com/showthread forum.wordreference.com/showthread


ThomasK said:


> In Dutch 'ambition' might perhaps be referred to *'wensdroom' *(like wishful thinking: wishing dreams), which implies that it might not be realistic...


That was a good reminder: I forgot to mention that in German the term "Wunschtraum" [lit:wish+dream] can also be used. "Traum" is used more often than "Wunschtraum", though, probably for the simple reason that it's shorter...


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## Zsanna

Holger2014 said:


> ...The distinction between "vágyálom" and "ábránd" reminds me of "unelma" and "haave" in Finnish mentioned by Gavril in this post. Finnish online-dictionary sanakirja.org translates both "unelma" and "haave" as "ábránd", though...


Having re-read Gavril's post, I can't say I have the same impression... even though there is the difference of one being "loftier" than the other and you could use _vágyálom_ (similar to _haave_) to express a wish about what you would like to reach (e.g.) as an aim in your life. 
But the "lofty" _unelma_ equivalent (?), _ábránd,_ would not fit the M.L.K. quote in Hungarian, exactly because it would give the impression of being "too" whimsical (not quite the right word, sorry). (Even the less "fanciful" _vágyálom_ would be "too much" for the occasion.) _Ábránd_ is ideas, plans you toy with (a bit romantically, naively, idealistically...) - being more or less aware that it's just _a pleasant way of passing the time_. A young girl could do that about how she imagines the future "HE" who will come into her life... (That was just _a bit of _an exaggeration.)


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## ThomasK

I like the attempt to bring them all together in some way, but I am not sure 3 &4 intrinsically belong to that list. Is a conscious dream still a dream? I do understand, and indeed we can also use it like that, but I'd like to hear about the languages having different words for 3/4, if the 'dream' element is still there... I see a reference to toying...


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## Gavril

Holger2014 said:


> Time to edit some of the 'definitions' I tried to come up with earlier:
> 0 = sleep
> 1 = unconscious dream during sleep
> 2 = unconscious dream during sleep, significant, prophetic, symbolic
> 3 = conscious dream, more or less unfocused, 'ideas, plans you toy with', dependence on good luck/coincidence
> 4 = conscious dream, focused on a 'definite real-life goal' that can possibly be achieved through perseverance, not as much dependence on good luck/coincidence



It looks like you have "lumped together" Zsanna's definition of Hungarian _ábránd/vágyálom_ with my description of Finnish _haave/unelma_ in items #3/4. But based on Zsanna's comments, these words don't actually seem to correspond to one another at all.

I would suggest returning to your original version of #3 and #4 (based only on the Finnish terms) and creating new categories based on Zsanna's description of _ábránd_ and _vágyálom_.

One other thing: on what basis are you assigning Estonian _unistus_ to category 3 and _unelm_ to #4? I don't speak Estonian, but the distinction between these two terms isn't explained at all in the dictionary link you provided.

(NB-- I might be stating the obvious here, but the dictionaries you're using as a basis for equivalence between words in Hungarian/Finnish/etc. -- linguee, sanakirja.org, etc. -- are not necessarily reliable for every language combination. Sanakirja.org is somewhat decent for Finnish<->English (I used to use it on a regular basis), but it is not guaranteed to be nearly as good for Finnish->Hungarian or vice versa.)


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## ger4

Zsanna said:


> Having re-read Gavril's post, I can't say I have the same impression... even though there is the difference of one being "loftier" than the other and you could use _vágyálom_ (similar to _haave_) to express a wish about what you would like to reach (e.g.) as an aim in your life.
> But the "lofty" _unelma_ equivalent (?), _ábránd,_ would not fit the M.L.K. quote in Hungarian, exactly because it would give the impression of being "too" whimsical (not quite the right word, sorry). (Even the less "fanciful" _vágyálom_ would be "too much" for the occasion.) _Ábránd_ is ideas, plans you toy with (a bit romantically, naively, idealistically...) - being more or less aware that it's just _a pleasant way of passing the time_. A young girl could do that about how she imagines the future "HE" who will come into her life... (That was just _a bit of _an exaggeration.)





ThomasK said:


> I like the attempt to bring them all together in some way, but I am not sure 3 &4 intrinsically belong to that list. Is a conscious dream still a dream? I do understand, and indeed we can also use it like that, but I'd like to hear about the languages having different words for 3/4, if the 'dream' element is still there... I see a reference to toying...





Gavril said:


> It looks like you have "lumped together" Zsanna's definition of Hungarian _ábránd/vágyálom_ with my description of Finnish _haave/unelma_ in items #3/4. But based on Zsanna's comments, these words don't actually seem to correspond to one another at all.
> 
> I would suggest returning to your original version of #3 and #4 (based only on the Finnish terms) and creating new categories based on Zsanna's description of _ábránd_ and _vágyálom_.


Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I am editing the points you mentioned. I actually tried to expand the list of "categories" based on Zsanna's description of _ábránd _and _vágyálom_ but that would have made the list quite long, of course; also, Diamant7 has already explained the Catalan equivalents for "sleep" and "dream" based on the "definitions" I tried to come up with before:


> In Catalan I would say: 0=_son <> 1=2=3=4=somni_


(0=sleep, 1=dream during sleep, 2=dream during sleep, significant, prophetic, 3=conscious daydream, more or less unfocused, 4=conscious dream, focused on a goal)

I wonder if _ábránd_ and _vágyálom_ could somehow both match "category" #3? - Of course, none of these "definitions" (overusing quotation marks on purpose here) will ever be 100% accurate...


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## Zsanna

Hello Holger,

Yes, I would say that in the great lines _ábránd _could enter the category #3 and _vágyálom_ in #4 (although an important difference between them is not in the focused/non focused aspect, rather in the "reverie - wish"-difference).

I agree with Gavril and would just like to add that dictionaries may not be (in general) very useful for finding out differences like the ones we are talking about. At least it is the case with all the online Finnish-Hungarian dictionaries I managed to look up in connection with this.


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## ThomasK

But then there is an underlying idea of wishing in Hungarian, is there, Zsanna, als in #3 and 4?


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## mataripis

Holger2014 said:


> If we make these distinctions...
> 0. sleep | 1. dream during sleep | 2. dream during sleep, significant, prophetic | 3. conscious daydr eam, more or less unfocused | 4. conscious dream, focused on a goal
> ... accepting the fact that the "dividing lines" in between them might be pretty much blurred, it seems obvious that different languages categorize the whole area of sleep/dream/daydream differently (any corrections welcome):
> 
> Spanish: 0=1=2=3=4=sueño
> English: 0=sleep <> 1=2=3=4=dream
> Russian: 0=1=2=сон/son <> 3=4=мечта/mechta
> Finnish (see this post): 0=1=2=uni <> 3=unelma <> 4=haave
> Hebrew (see this post): 1=חלום khalom <> 2=התגלמות hitgalmut, התגשמות hitgashmut, נבואה nevuah <> 3=4=חזון khazon


Ok. 1.) Panaginip- dream while sleeping/ pangitain- vision while sleeping or awake/ mithiin or hinahangad-wish,  plan or goal/ pangarap(sometimes used interchangeably in night dream) but in poems it is a long term plan that an individual want to achieve one day.the root word of pangarap is arap that related to alap or ulap(cloud). 
Cloud gazing or one who sees the approaching events by reading the visions or sudden images in the air, sky/clouds!


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## Gavril

Holger2014 said:


> Trying to expand the list of categories to include additional definitions for the two Hungarian nouns _ábránd _and _vágyálom _as well as more specific definitions for Finnish _unelma_ and _haave_ I ended up with a confusing  list of six categories



Maybe I'm misunderstanding your aim here, but it seems to me that a large number of categories (far more than six) should be expected, at least initially, when one is comparing the semantics of words from many different languages.

After collecting enough examples from a diverse array of languages,  then maybe you can start examining the similarities between examples and try to  collapse the categories together into broader ones. But it seems problematic to try to simplify things at the beginning.

 


> (and whether the definitions I tried to come up  with would have made a lot of sense is debatable...)




Isn't it enough to just paraphrase the explanations given by native speakers (in this case, Zsanna's explanations of _ábránd _and _vágyálom_)?


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## SuperXW

In Chinese, two kinds of "ambitions" must be differentiated:
Good ambitions, e.g. make the world better: 抱负, 志愿 etc.
Bad ambitions, e.g. world domination: 野心.

"Dream" 梦想 can be a metaphor of good ambitions.


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## ger4

@ gavril --> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2927929&page=2&p=14817190#post14817190
This is what I intended to do initially: collecting as many answers as possible and, after a while, trying to find out how different languages draw their "lines of seperation" in between their different expressions. For now, it might be a good idea to carry on collecting examples and explanations first and then try to define categories (ideally, of course, using explanations given by native speakers, as you suggested).

@ Mataripis --> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2927929&page=2&p=14817094#post14817094
@ SuperXW --> previous post
Thanks a lot for your replies. Again, both explanations and examples illustrate that different languages have completely different ways of describing a concept as abstract as "dream".


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## bibax

Czech:

0=*spánek* <> 1=2=3=4=*sen*

Sen směšného člověka (Dostojevskij)
Měl jsem sen (MLK)

We have also _přání_ (wish), _tužba_ (desire), _zjevení_ (apparition), _vidění_ (vision), ...


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## ger4

@ Bibax --> previous post
Thank you. It is interesting to compare Czech and Polish here:

Czech: Sen směšného člověka - Polish: Sen śmiesznego człowieka --> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dziennik_pisarza
Czech: Měl jsem sen - Polish: Mam marzenie --> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_a_Dream*

* According to the same source, MLK's "I have a dream" has also been translated similarly to "Měl jsem sen":



> Występuje [it appears] także [also] tłumaczenie [translation] tego [of this] zwrotu [phrase] jako [as] _Miałem sen [I had a dream] lub Mam sen [I have a dream]._


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## bibax

In fact, using the verb "to have" in this case is a Germanism and a direct translation from English. The Slavic languages mostly prefer the verb "to dream" to "to have a dream". However not in this King's speech for some reason.

I have a dream that ...

Czech: *Sním* o tom, že ...
Russian: Я *мечтаю*, что ... (ja mečtaju, ...)
Croatian: *Sanjam* da ...
...


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## ger4

All the replies have been very helpful. These are the languages mentioned so far:

Catalan #22
Chinese #33
Czech #35
Dutch #16
Finnish #10 #14 #27
Greek #7 #9
Hebrew #12 #18
Hungarian #23 #25 #29
Russian #3 #5 #19 #20
Tagalog #2 #31


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## luitzen

In Frisian we would mostly use dream, though ambysje could be used for a personal dream of something that one wants to achieve. For this the plural of dream can also be used.

E.g.:
Ik haw in dream - I have a dream
De ambysje/dreamen fan in healwiis - The ambition/dreams of a half-wise.


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