# Slavic Veles-god



## rushalaim

Is it correct to assume that Slavic god's name _"Veles"_ has origin in Phoenician _Baal_-god and _Astarte_-goddess as the one cult, thus _Slavs_ named their god in plural as _"Veles"_, *בעלת* , European-Jewish pronunciation as _"Vaalos"_ or even _"Volos"_?


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## sotos

Veles seems closer to IE Helios (Sun).


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## rushalaim

I doubt about _Veles/Helios_.
I think _Greek Helios_ is _Slavic Hors_ from _Babylonian Huhr_ *אור* he is *שמש* .
_Veles_ or Phoenician _Baal_ has a lightning in his hand, so _Veles_ maybe like _Greek Zeus_.


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## berndf

Can you explain why you suspect an derivation from the Semitic rather than from the Indo-European pantheon? I am not criticizing, I am just trying to understand.


rushalaim said:


> _..._so _Veles_ maybe like _Greek Zeus_.


Well, Greek _Zeus_/Latin _Juppiter_, Germanic _Thor_ and Slavic _Perun _are more likely candidates for a common mythological origin (though the names have probably different origins in the three groups) than _Zeus/Juppiter_ and _Veles_.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Can you explain why you suspect an derivation from the Semitic rather than from the Indo-European pantheon? I am not criticizing, I am just trying to understand.
> 
> Well, Greek _Zeus_/Latin _Juppiter_, Germanic _Thor_ and Slavic _Perun _are more likely candidates for a common mythological origin (though the names have probably different origins in the three groups) than _Zeus/Juppiter_ and _Veles_.


Why "Semitic"? _Astarte/Baal_ is the Middle-East cult from Egypt to Babylon. Many empires. So why Slavs couldn't adopt such a cult?

If to see how _Baal_ is depicted with a lightning in his hand raised ready to drop it, it's similar with Greek's _Zeus_. _Astarte/Baal_ have horns like _Veles_.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Why "Semitic"? _Astarte/Baal_ is the Middle-East cult from Egypt to Babylon


Because it is Semitic, actually from Cartage to Babylon. _Ba`al_ does not belong to the Egyptian pantheon but it is the head deity of Cartage which they inherited from their Phoenician forefathers. The Name _Ba`al_ is NW-Semitic. The East-Semitic, i.e. Babylonian/Akkadian form is _Bel_ (without the `).

To make things worse, NW-Semitic _Ba`al_/East-Semitic _Bel_ appears also as part of the names of completely unrelated male deities and with the female suffix _-ah/-at_ also female deities because _Ba`al_/_Bel_ exist also as a common noun meaning _master, lord_ and with the female suffix _mistress_. E.g. we have the Philistine _Ba'al Zevuv_ (_Beelzebub_) or the Babylonian _Bel Marduk_ which have nothing to do with _Ba`al/Hadad._


rushalaim said:


> o why Slavs couldn't adopt such a cult?


Because they are IE by descend. The Idea is that most pagan European mythologies are inherited from a single IE mythology and pantheon. Also the Semitic cults seem all to derive from a common pantheon, with gods like _Ba`al_ and _Elohim _(Hebrew)/_Ilah_ (Arabic).



rushalaim said:


> If to see how _Baal_ is depicted with a lightning in his hand raised ready to drop it, it's similar with Greek's _Zeus_. _Astarte/Baal_ have horns like _Veles_.


The Slavic lightning god is _Perun_, not _Veles_.

_Ba`al/Hadad_ shares with _Veles_ and also with Germanic _Thor _the property of fertility god while _Zeus/Juppiter_ is, like_ Ba`al, Thor_ and _Perun_, the god of thunder but not the god of fertility. All very confusing. _Veles _has often been identified with Geek/Latin _Apollo(n)_.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> _Slavs_ named their god in plural as _"Veles"_, *בעלת* , European-Jewish pronunciation as _"Vaalos"_ or even _"Volos"_?


Are you sure that European-Jewish pronunciation of "Ba`alat" is with "V" and not "B"? And why would European Jews ever pronounce the name of an ancient Semitic goddess, long gone from their language and culture? And how the final "s", originally the "t" feminine suffix in Semitic, became a plural suffix in Slavic?


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## berndf

origumi said:


> And how the final "t" shifted to "s", a feminine suffix in Semitic, became a plural suffix in Slavic?


I think he meant בעלות and not בעלת. But neither of them have really anything to do with *the* בעל.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Because it is Semitic, actually from Cartage to Babylon. _Ba`al_ does not belong to the Egyptian pantheon but it is the head deity of Cartage which they inherited from their Phoenician forefathers. The Name _Ba`al_ is NW-Semitic. The East-Semitic, i.e. Babylonian/Akkadian form is _Bel_ (without the `).
> 
> To make things worse, NW-Semitic _Ba`al_/East-Semitic _Bel_ appears also as part of the names of completely unrelated male deities and with the female suffix _-ah/-at_ also female deities because _Ba`al_/_Bel_ exist also as a common noun meaning _master, lord_ and with the female suffix _mistress_. E.g. we have the Philistine _Ba'al Zevuv_ (_Beelzebub_) or the Babylonian _Bel Marduk_ which have nothing to do with _Ba`al/Hadad._
> 
> Because they are IE by descend. The Idea is that most pagan European mythologies are inherited from a single IE mythology and pantheon. Also the Semitic cults seem all to derive from a common pantheon, with gods like _Ba`al_ and _Elohim _(Hebrew)/_Ilah_ (Arabic).
> 
> 
> The Slavic lightning god is _Perun_, not _Veles_.
> 
> _Ba`al/Hadad_ shares with _Veles_ and also with Germanic _Thor _the property of fertility god while _Zeus/Juppiter_ is, like_ Ba`al, Thor_ and _Perun_, the god of thunder but not the god of fertility. All very confusing. _Veles _has often been identified with Geek/Latin _Apollo(n)_.


_Astarte _belongs to Egyptian pantheon and Accadian/Sumerian, _Baal/Astarte_ both always stood together for worshipping.
Phoenician gods were adopted by Greeks and Romans. Maybe Phoenician _Astarte_ is Greek _Selene_? _Lat_."a*str*a", _eng_."*star*" were derived from "A*star*te". Canaanites named their towns with _Astarte_-goddesses in plural (Genesis 14:5) *עשתרת* .
_Veles_-pillar had horns the same like _Baal_.


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## ahvalj

I have checked some sources and got the impression that _Велесъ/Velesъ_ is directly mentioned only in ancient East Slavic texts, so its common presentation as a _Slavic_ god seems to be just an extrapolation, at least with the available evidence. Also, it remains unclear what were the relationships between _Velesъ_ and _Волосъ/Volosъ: _are they synonyms or two separate deities.
_
Ba_ʿ_al _and _Helios _couldn't have produced the Old East Slavic _Velesъ _for phonetic reasons_, _even the first syllable alone. If borrowed before approximately the 5th century, the former would have resulted in the Old Church Slavonic _**Balъ _or _**Bojelъ/Bojelь~Bovolъ/Bovolь,_ whereas the latter, in the OCS _**Jeļь. _Slavic didn't possess _v_ until very late, so that the Middle Greek _β_ [v] was substituted with _b,_ e. g. Old Church Slavonic _korabļь<καράβιον, _also cp. _истъба/jьstъba_ < Early Romance _*istuva. _The Greek -_ος_ was substituted with the cognate Slavic ending of the thematic Nom. Sg., which in Old Church Slavonic looked like _-ъ_. The exceptions are very rare (Vaillant's grammar mentions only two) and are found only in the church vocabulary: _Христосъ/Xristosъ_ (along with the older loan _Хрьстъ/Xrьstъ_) and _клиросъ/klirosъ._


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> _Astarte _belongs to Egyptian pantheon and Accadian/Sumerian, _Baal/Astarte_ both always stood together for worshipping.
> Phoenician gods were adopted by Greeks and Romans. Maybe Phoenician _Astarte_ is Greek _Selene_? _Lat_."a*str*a", _eng_."*star*" were derived from "A*star*te". Canaanites named their towns with _Astarte_-goddesses in plural (Genesis 14:5) *עשתרת* .
> _Veles_-pillar had horns the same like _Baal_.


Ah! There you fell into the trap I warned you of. Ashtrat (Astarte is merely a Helenization of the Name) is a completly different goddess than the thunderbolt striking Ba`al. As I explained, ba`alah/ba`alat means simply "mistress" and ist a honorific title for a goddess and is used for different completely unrelated deities.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> Ah! There you fell into the trap I warned you of. Ashtrat (Astarte is merely a Helenization of the Name) is a completly different goddess than the thunderbolt striking Ba`al. As I explained, ba`alah/ba`alat means simply "mistress" and ist a honorific title for a goddess and is used for different completely unrelated deities.


Canaanite _Asherah _is the same Phoenician _Astarte_. Genesis 14:5 says about the town named in honour of horned-_Astarte _(plural!). Maybe Phoenician _Astarte _is Egyptian _Hathor_-goddess (_Isis_) or Accadian _Ishtar_?
You know, every man in every place of the Earth can see the lightning, he may name it with his own language, but those aren't different lightnings but only the one from the sky. The same story with the pantheon.
I assume, Slavic _Veles _is Scandinavian _Woden_. Both are horned. Slavs named _Veles _as _Volos _sometimes, _"vol"_ is _"ox"_.

_Asherah _is _Astarte_. Judges 3:7 or 6:28 or 2:13 or 10:6 where _Astarte _and _Baal _were stood only together.


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## Ben Jamin

We know so little about Slavic gods, and even less of that we know can be trusted as trustworthy. Written sources are scarce and most of them is second or third hand. The rest is fantasy of people that lived long time after the pagan rites had been suppressed and forgotten.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> We know so little about Slavic gods, and even less of that we know can be trusted as trustworthy. Written sources are scarce and most of them is second or third hand. The rest is fantasy of people that lived long time after the pagan rites had been suppressed and forgotten.


Indeed. That is because writing came to the Slavic world only with Christianisation. All knowledge of pagan mythology is either from Greek sources or from reconstruction through folkloric element that survived Christianisation.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Phoenician _Astarte _is Egyptian _Hathor_-goddess (_Isis_) or Accadian _Ishtar_?


Yes, Canaanite _Ashtrat _is Akkadian _Ishtar_. The _Ashtrat _cult was probably merged into the Egyptian Isis cult but _Ashtrat _is not the origin the _Isis _cult. _Isis _was already known in the late Old Empire while _Ashtrat _entered the Egyptian mythology only during the Middle Empire from NW-Semitic sources (i.e. Canaanite, Ugaritic or Aramaic).


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## wtrmute

berndf said:


> Can you explain why you suspect an derivation from the Semitic rather than from the Indo-European pantheon? I am not criticizing, I am just trying to understand.
> 
> Well, Greek _Zeus_/Latin _Juppiter_, Germanic _Thor_ and Slavic _Perun _are more likely candidates for a common mythological origin (though the names have probably different origins in the three groups) than _Zeus/Juppiter_ and _Veles_.



Indeed, the "cognate" of _Zeus_ in Germanic mythology is actually _Tyr_, which some think was the most important god before the Migrations.  As for Perun, it is probably cognate to Latin _quercus_, the oak.  There were Baltic and Thracian gods of lightning with a cognate name, but I guess in most other branches probably folded such a god into the pantheon head Zeus/Tyr/Juppiter.

As for Veles himself, Wikipedia curiously gives his name as cognate to the Elysian Fields, having to do with some sort of meadow or pastureland in the Underworld.


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## ahvalj

wtrmute said:


> As for Perun, it is probably cognate to Latin _quercus_, the oak.  There were Baltic and Thracian gods of lightning with a cognate name


_Perunъ,_ in addition to god's name, means "lightning, thunder" in Slavic and is easily etymologized from _perǫ_ "I hit, I strike" + the suffix of _nomina agentis _(_běgǫ_ "I run" → _běgunъ_ "runner"), i. e. "striker"_. _The PIE word for "oak" was *_perkʷus_, which can't be related to _Perunъ_ for phonetic reasons (the absence of _k_).

It is unclear what are the relationships of _perunъ/Perunъ_ with the Baltic theonyms and words for "thunder", _perkūnas/Perkūnas_ (Lithuanian), _pērkons/Pērkons/Pērkūns/Pērkauns_ (Latvian) and _percunis_ (Prussian). The Baltic god was, among other, related to oaks, so its name can be connected with the PIE word for "oak" without any problems. By the way, the Slavic -_un_- and Lithuanian _-ūn-_, despite being similar, are not identical, as the Slavic _u_ a) comes from earlier Common Slavic _*au,_ and b) bears a non-acute accent; the Slavic suffix is, however, identical to the Latvian -_aun_- (don't know about the acute or non-acute tone in this Latvian word; _-ôn-_ is acute, as in Lithuanian).

There are also two Norse deities, _Fjǫrgynn_ (masculine) and _Fjǫrgyn_ (feminine; Thor's mother; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjörgyn_and_Fjörgynn), which, along with several Germanic nouns, go back to almost the same proto-form, *_perkʷun_-, as the Baltic words.

In Celtic, there is the famous _Hercynia silva _(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest), also from the same *_perkʷun_-.

As far as I can judge, the only way to connect _Perunъ_ with these words is to assume that the original, which sounded like _*perkaunas_ (see the Latvian _Pērkauns:_ I don't understand the origin of the long _ē_ here, though it is non-acute, cp. _pḕrkôns_), was at some point reinterpreted as the deverbal _nomen agentis_ _*peraunas _"striker". This is, of course, purely conjectural.

As to _Ἠλύσιον,_ Beekes (_Beekes RSP · 2010 · Etymological dictionary of Greek: _517) writes that "[t]he word is a derivative in _-ιο-_ from a geographical name _*Alut-_ or _*Elut-"_ (indeed, _-s-_ is dropped in Greek, and the new intervocalic _-s-_ is either the result of _ti>si, _or the result of the simplification of a consonant cluster ending on _s_), so it can't be connected to _Velesъ. _If borrowed, _Ἠλύσιον _would have produced the Old East Slavic _**Ilъšь _(from Middle Greek) or *_Jalъšь_ (from Ancient).


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## CyrusSH

I just see a sound change in Indo-European languages, like from proto-IE *delegh (long) -> Sanskrit dirgha and Slavic dolgi

Varuna, the Hindu god of water and underwater world, who punishes oath-breakers?


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> I just see a sound change in Indo-European languages, like from proto-IE *delegh (long) -> Sanskrit dirgha and Slavic dolgi


And how could it be related to _Velesъ_?


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> And how could it be related to _Velesъ_?



It was just an example about l>r sound change, Veles is also god of water and punishes oath-breakers.


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## CyrusSH

I mentioned the proto-IE word for "long", but proto-IE word for "wide" is *wer (Avestan _vouru_ and Greek _euru_), is there a word from this root in the Slavic languages?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god): In more geographical terms, the world of Veles was located, the Slavs believed, "across the sea", and it was there the migrating birds would fly to every winter. In folk tales this land is called Virey or Iriy.

And about Vourukasha (wide-shored): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vourukasha Vourukasha is the name of a heavenly sea in Zoroastrian mythology. It was created by Ahura Mazda and in its middle stood the Harvisptokhm or the "tree of all seeds". There is a bird Sinamru on the tree which causes the bought to break and seeds to sprinkle all around when it alights.


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> I mentioned the proto-IE word for "long", but proto-IE word for "wide" is *wer (Avestan _vouru_ and Greek _euru_), is there a word from this root in the Slavic languages?


It seems that this word is attested only in Indo-Iranic, Greek and Tocharian. In any case, the change _l>r _is Indo-Iranic (or even not the change itself, but the tendency to merge both sounds; in east Indic, in contrast, _r>l_) and is not found in other branches (including Slavic). I don't think scholars possess enough information to etymologize the name of this Slavic deity.


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## rushalaim

ahvalj said:


> It seems that this word is attested only in Indo-Iranic, Greek and Tocharian. In any case, the change _l>r _is Indo-Iranic (or even not the change itself, but the tendency to merge both sounds; in east Indic, in contrast, _r>l_) and is not found in other branches (including Slavic). I don't think scholars possess enough information to etymologize the name of this Slavic deity.


Hebrew interchanges _r>l _sounds.


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> Hebrew interchanges _r>l _sounds.


But is not IE and therefore doesn't belong to the 


ahvalj said:


> other branches


.


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## Angelo di fuoco

berndf said:


> Indeed. That is because writing came to the Slavic world only with Christianisation. All knowledge of pagan mythology is either from Greek sources or from reconstruction through folkloric element that survived Christianisation.



Sure? Wasn't there another kind of writing before Christianisation?


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## berndf

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Sure? Wasn't there another kind of writing before Christianisation?


I wouldn't know which. The oldest written form of any Slavic language is Glagolitic, the script created by Cyril and Methodius for writing OCS.


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## ahvalj

Actually, such a writing did exist — an author of the turn of the 9th and 10th centuries wrote:



> In the past, the Slavs did not have books, but _read_ and told fortunes with strokes and notches, being pagans…
> 
> Прѣждє ѹбо словѣнє нє имѣхѫ кънигъ ⁙ нъ чрътами и рѣꙁами _чьтѣхѫ_ и гатаахѫ погани сѫщє…


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernorizets_Hrabar

But no traces of these earlier pagan Slavic scripts have preserved.

*P. S.* This script was probably a kind of runes: a) "strokes and notches", b) the runes were used by the Germanic and Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_alphabet) neighbors of the Slavs.

*P. P. S. *Not a Slavic or Indo-European feature, but the Balkans and adjacent areas of Ukraine were areas where probably the earliest human script developed in the 6–5th millennia B.C.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_symbols Unfortunately, there are no chances to decipher them since the language is long extinct.


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## rushalaim

berndf said:


> I wouldn't know which. The oldest written form of any Slavic language is Glagolitic, the script created by Cyril and Methodius for writing OCS.


I've read that Glagolitic existed already about 500 years before Cyril-the philosopher came to Crimea to study that Alphabet. And he just modified it into his own Alphabet - Cyrillic.
I've read that Glagolitic Alphabet was from Rusyns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Rusyns


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## berndf

That was a medieval legend about St. Jerome (who lived in what is now Croatia) having create the script. But by all I know that is really just a legend, created in, surprise, surprise, Croatia.


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## rushalaim

Glagolitic Alphabet in Crimea. Glagolitic was 500 years before Cyril. Cyril modified Glagolitic and "created" his Cyrillic in year 890.


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## berndf

As I said, it's a legend no scholar takes serious any more.


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## ahvalj

ahvalj said:


> _Perunъ,_ in addition to god's name, means "lightning, thunder" in Slavic and is easily etymologized from _perǫ_ "I hit, I strike" + the suffix of _nomina agentis _(_běgǫ_ "I run" → _běgunъ_ "runner"), i. e. "striker"_. _The PIE word for "oak" was *_perkʷus_, which can't be related to _Perunъ_ for phonetic reasons (the absence of _k_).
> 
> It is unclear what are the relationships of _perunъ/Perunъ_ with the Baltic theonyms and words for "thunder", _perkūnas/Perkūnas_ (Lithuanian), _pērkons/Pērkons/Pērkūns/Pērkauns_ (Latvian) and _percunis_ (Prussian). The Baltic god was, among other, related to oaks, so its name can be connected with the PIE word for "oak" without any problems. By the way, the Slavic -_un_- and Lithuanian _-ūn-_, despite being similar, are not identical, as the Slavic _u_ a) comes from earlier Common Slavic _*au,_ and b) bears a non-acute accent; the Slavic suffix is, however, identical to the Latvian -_aun_- (don't know about the acute or non-acute tone in this Latvian word; _-ôn-_ is acute, as in Lithuanian).
> 
> There are also two Norse deities, _Fjǫrgynn_ (masculine) and _Fjǫrgyn_ (feminine; Thor's mother; Fjörgyn and Fjörgynn - Wikipedia), which, along with several Germanic nouns, go back to almost the same proto-form, *_perkʷun_-, as the Baltic words.
> 
> In Celtic, there is the famous _Hercynia silva _(Hercynian Forest - Wikipedia), also from the same *_perkʷun_-.
> 
> As far as I can judge, the only way to connect _Perunъ_ with these words is to assume that the original, which sounded like _*perkaunas_ (see the Latvian _Pērkauns:_ I don't understand the origin of the long _ē_ here, though it is non-acute, cp. _pḕrkôns_), was at some point reinterpreted as the deverbal _nomen agentis_ _*peraunas _"striker". This is, of course, purely conjectural.


I had forgotten that the form with _*ū_ exists in Slavic as well, in _Перынь/Perynь_ (Peryn - Wikipedia), so we have _Perkūnas/Pērkūns/percunis/Perynь _and_ Pērkauns/Perunъ. _The lack of _k_ in Slavic is probably secondary as I have speculated above.


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## Awwal12

berndf said:


> The Idea is that most pagan European mythologies are inherited from a single IE mythology and pantheon.


That idea always striked me as rather hard to believe (since it completely ignores every other factor, from numerous substrates to cultural contacts to independent development after all). We know almost for sure that certain Greek and Roman deities have non-IE origin, and that pagan religions generally tend to incorporate new deities and cults. Or we can just compare the pantheon of early Vedic religion and that of the modern Hindu mainstream techings (thanks to the rather long written history!). Some myths (like Titanomachy) do likely have a common origin, but saying so about the whole mythologies is... preliminary, to say the least.

But in case of Veles, of course, there is not a single cultural reason to suppose its relation to Baal.


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## Borin3

rushalaim said:


> Is it correct to assume that Slavic god's name _"Veles"_ has origin in Phoenician _Baal_-god and _Astarte_-goddess as the one cult, thus _Slavs_ named their god in plural as _"Veles"_, *בעלת* , European-Jewish pronunciation as _"Vaalos"_ or even _"Volos"_?


It is for sure ok to assume.



berndf said:


> The Slavic lightning god is _Perun_, not _Veles_.


This is only one of the terms for that same God. Perun is mostly present among North Slavs, but this same God is called Ilija in modern Serbian where IL is the root. I don't know about Bulgarians, but we also call him "Sudija"(the judge).

Volos/Veles is a complete Slavic word. Volos is the God of fertility..He is the protector of the cattle. VOL means OX and so Veles/Volos is actually a bull. He does have horns and is depicted as the bull and below is one of his images.
https://www.slavorum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/veles-2.jpg
The words related to God Volos/Veles are voleti-to love, volja-will(noun) and most likely velik(big/grand). Velik is i guess a word Cyrus was looking for.


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## Borin3

berndf said:


> I wouldn't know which. The oldest written form of any Slavic language is Glagolitic, the script created by Cyril and Methodius for writing OCS.


Sorry, but Glagolitic is way much older then Cyril.


berndf said:


> As I said, it's a legend no scholar takes serious any more.


I don't know which scholars think it's a legend. Come to Bosnia, Serbia or Croatia. Look for particular type of a stone called "stecak" and check the writings on those. Examine the stones if you know how to do it. Every scientist agrees that "stecak" is incredibly old and what is written on them is a glagolitic script.
These stones are monuments over the graves. I went to a particular village to help my friend with some work. And all of a sudden this stone is in a middle of the field. You can go to almost any village, and ask people about it. Almost every village has them.
Some have cyrillic written on them and some have glagolitic. Those that are christian mostly have cyrilic.


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## berndf

Borin3 said:


> Sorry, but Glagolitic is way much older then Cyril.


No.


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## Borin3

berndf said:


> No.


Yes.


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## berndf

Borin3 said:


> Every scientist agrees that "stecak" is incredibly old


Between 400 and 900 years.


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## Borin3

Well what did you think, i didn't mean 10000 years old. More like something around the Christ old.


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## berndf

Borin3 said:


> Well what did you think, i didn't mean 10000 years old. More like something around the Christ old.


That is wrong. They are between 400 and 900 years old.


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## IngridG

Here is a good link about Veles both the meaning and the origin of the word. 

He is depicted in general with a horn in one hand and a crook stick/staff or stang (forked stick) in the other, not lightening so not sure where you would have seen this. 

https://www.freewebs.com/east-slavic/veles.htm


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