# All Nordic: understand



## Alxmrphi

Hi all,

I was just curious about the origin of the Scandinavian word for 'understand', which is_ forstå_ in Danish and Norwegian, and _förstå_ in Swedish.
Given that Icelandic and Faroese have _skilja_ to represent this word, I believe it's the older form (based on numerous historical considerations), plus _skilja _also exists in Swedish with the same meaning (unsure of it is still present in the other two). Given the sta/stå comes from the same word as 'stand', it sort of looks like a calque I guess, but given the West Germanic languages having this, it obviously goes back to PG and isn't anything new, so that's what made me a little bit curious. If skilja was used then I was curious if anyone had any information on the origin of _forstå/__förstå. _Middle Danish had _understande_, but that could have been a transfer via an older form of German (which had 'understandan'). So given the prefix under- is present in Scandinavian languages it isn't the most well-behaved (if it actually is a) calque, so maybe it's something else.

The word in German is 'verstehen' (ver-stehen), which for all you people who know your Germanic philology, will work back the initial voicing to -fer- and notice the connection to 'for', and Etymonline.com says it was represented in Old English as _forstanden_. So if anyone can talk me though a little history of this I'd appreciate it. The more I look at it the more I doubt that _skilja_ is the original word in Norse, but it's quite weird for both Icelandic and Faroese to have this term in common, and that would require explanation then. Ok, I checked two ON dictionaries and they both say 'skilja', so the 'forsta' verb arose in the Scandinavian languages later, possibly by calquing the West Germanic (i.e. German) influences as far back as possibly Middle Danish, and then 'skilja' remained in Swedish but had the main verb be _förstå_, right?

Anyone able to shed some light?

Alx


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## Donnerstag

Most of the posters here, me included, aren't well versed enough in etymology to be able to give you a good answer.

What I can say though, is that if you read the sagas, s_kilja_ is the word which is used. My dictionary states that it comes from *skiljanan in Proto Germanic.

So skilja was the word used in Old Norse.

I guess forstå/förstå entered the Mainland Scandinavian languages later through German influences. But I don't have anything to back it up. Sorry.


http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Germanic/skiljanan&action=edit&redlink=1


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## Åvävvla

Förstå/forstå certainly comes from German. 

_Ordbog over det danske sprog_ (http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?select=forstaa,2&query=forstaa), SAOB (http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/ "förstå") and _Svensk etymologisk ordbok_ (http://runeberg.org/svetym/0263.html) all give the Middle Low German word "vorstan" as the likely source. It's been used in Swedish since at least the 1300s (http://spraakbanken.gu.se/fsvldb/ "forstanda").

_Undirstanda_ existed in Old Swedish too (http://spraakbanken.gu.se/fsvldb/ "undirstanda") and maybe even until the 1600s (as "understå" http://runeberg.org/svetym/1149.html), but it's difficult to tell since SAOB hasn't reached the letter u yet. The etymology isn't exactly clear. Maybe it was a loan word (calque ?) from Old English or Low German.

_Skilia/skilja_ could mean "understand" in Old Swedish, but it doesn't seem like it was the most common meaning. As in modern Swedish _skilia_ primarily meant "part, separate" (http://spraakbanken.gu.se/fsvldb/ "skilia"; http://runeberg.org/svetym/0823.html).

That's all I can dig up.


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## NoMoreMrIceGuy

@Åvävvla:

_Skilja_ still means both understand and separate in Icelandic.

Derived words:
Skilningur = Understanding
Skilningarvit = Senses (Smell, touch, sight, etc.)

Skilvinda = Centrifuge
Skilnaður = Divorce


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## Alxmrphi

Interesting! My question started out completely differently, but by the time I got to the end I had uncovered so much more information that confused the issue that it ended up a completely different question, but if it seems the Scandinavian word came from West Germanic (i.e. 'German') then that sort of answers the question. Though this 'understand' version that comes up in Danish and German does sort of confuse the issue, but I know which one goes back to Old Norse and where the other words are assumed to have come from.


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## NorwegianNYC

The word is probably of Middle German origin, and entered the Scandinavian languages in the late Middle Ages. However, it is difficult to determine whether it is a calque, since the Scandinavian languages have similar words in their vocabularies. To the Scandinavians, the German word must have sounded familiar enough, and "fer-steh" is only a dialectal pronunciation away from _forstå_ - whose root words make perfect sense in Norwegian, Swedish and Danish.

Both Norwegian and Swedish have the word _underforstått/underförstådda_ which is of course related to understand, but has the meaning "implied" or "implicit"

Another aspect of the word _forstå/förstå_ is the Da/No noun form _forstand_, which is equivalent to English "intellect" or "mind".


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## Ben Jamin

What about a hypothese that 'skilja' is a newer word than 'forstå/verstehen', and that it replaced another word used in that meaning in both Icelandic and Faroese?
If forstå is a German calque, what word was used in old Norse then?


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## Alxmrphi

Well if that's true it would have replaced the word in Old Norse, not in Icelandic and Faroese.
Hmm, possible I guess.


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## perevoditel

I would just point that _å skille_ in Norwegian means _to split_, and _skilles_ means _divorced_. But there is also _skjønne_ in use, maybe it came from _skilja_​?


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## kepulauan

Reminds me of the word "deconstruction". The idea is that one "separates/splits/fragments" something in order to gain understanding of it. Maybe people in the old days thought about it in a similar manner. After all we do have some other ways of conveying similar ideas, like "making something out" or "wrapping out heads around something".

Just a thought.


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## Gavril

pollodia said:


> Reminds me of the word "deconstruction". The idea is that one "separates/splits/fragments" something in order to gain understanding of it. Maybe people in the old days thought about it in a similar manner. After all we do have some other ways of conveying similar ideas, like "making something out" or "wrapping out heads around something".
> 
> Just a thought.



Also compare Latin _scire _"know", which is related to Icel. _skeina _and other words having to do with "cutting".


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