# PIE *bher (1) India



## john welch

Bharat Ganarajya is a name for India, from  Skt. bharati "carries", bharata "that which is maintained" < *bher "carry, birth". ("burden. bearing"). It qualifies Ganarajya "principles. the one who rules"). As Persian bara means "landmass. continent" and Bharat applies to the land of India, the Mata "mother" of birth, then is the Persian word also from *bher?
P. bara seems to be in Thai bara "dance-room of king" for his ritual dance representing his rule over his territory, Cambodian borei. Egypt's pharaohs also danced in a ritual room at the start of their reign to show physical fitness to rule their land.
Does *bher extend to the sense of "landmass"?


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## aruniyan

Some Tamil/Indian words may help,
Pa+ra (To spread more), May be the PIE  "*per" is the equivalent,  English "Far"

related Tamil  words,

Para=To Fly.
Paravai = Bird.
Parantha, Parappu = Largely  spread (usually land mass)
Parai = announce  people (usually a type of drum  instrument, there is also "parai dance" while playing with  "parai")


Pi + ra (To come out from keeping inside), In PIE its "bher",  English "Birth"
related words,
Pira = Other,
Pirantha = Birth,  Bearing.
Piri = To se-parate
Pirai = New moon.


But Tamil is  Dravidian a different language group.


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## john welch

Thanks. I've found that Persian bara is from Arabic /Hebrew meaning "creator. maker" (as in creation of the earth). This fits with Hindu ideas of the dance of creation, the Sanskrit Thai bara "dance-room of king", and perhaps the Australian Aboriginal bora "dance ground of tribal territory".


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## Abu Rashid

john welch said:


> Thanks. I've found that Persian bara is from Arabic /Hebrew meaning "creator. maker" (as in creation of the earth). This fits with Hindu ideas of the dance of creation, the Sanskrit Thai bara "dance-room of king", and perhaps the Australian Aboriginal bora "dance ground of tribal territory".



Where did you get the idea it's from Arabic creator, maker?

Hebrew has no word that I'm aware of which refers to land remotely like this. Arabic has bar, but it's not the same as this root, as it's missing the last letter, hamza (glottal stop).


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## john welch

World Loanword Database has Arabic bar "continent" loaned to Persian . 
Loanwords in World language M Haspelmath says Arabic, Persian bara "continent".
Another site says Arab >Pers. bara> Swahili barra "continent".
[Bara is also the English transliteration for the Hebrew word, being the second word in the Bible. It is a verb and means 'to create or make' . This verb only has God as its subject and so only God is able to create in the sense implied in the meaning of this verb. It includes the idea of creation out of nothing. .creation on a cosmic scale: ]
---
So I took it that the verb and noun were linked as in "create. lands". So now I delete Arabic *bara "create".
But the point about Persian bara "continent" seems OK, with a Semitic influence of Hebrew "creation".


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## origumi

Abu Rashid said:


> Where did you get the idea it's from Arabic creator, maker?
> 
> Hebrew has no word that I'm aware of which refers to land remotely like this. Arabic has bar, but it's not the same as this root, as it's missing the last letter, hamza (glottal stop).




This source http://www.freeweb.hu/etymological/AEDweb.htm says:


> bara’a : create [Sem b-r-’, Heb bara, Syr bara, JNA bry (happen), birya (creature)]




Possible relation to Indian languages and Thai??? that's another issue.


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## Abu Rashid

john welch said:


> Bara is also the English transliteration for the Hebrew word, being the second word in the Bible. It is a verb and means 'to create or make' . This verb only has God as its subject and so only God is able to create in the sense implied in the meaning of this verb. It includes the idea of creation out of nothing. .creation on a cosmic scale



Yes the Arabic and Hebrew b-r-ʔ are cognate roots, and as mentioned by origumi the root exists in Aramaic as well, and also Ancient South Arabian languages, but contrary to the close transliteration in English, they are not spelled the same as the Arabic word for land.



john welch said:


> So I took it that the verb and noun were linked as in "create. lands". So now I delete Arabic *bara "create".
> But the point about Persian bara "continent" seems OK, with a Semitic influence of Hebrew "creation".



Well Arabic definitely has both words, but they do not seem to derive from the same root. Whilst we spell both in English with 'a' on the end, in Arabic one has a short vowel (a) on the end, whilst the other has a consonant (ʔ). Therefore no link is apparent between them, since they are spelled quite differently.


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## Abu Rashid

origumi said:


> This source http://www.freeweb.hu/etymological/AEDweb.htm says:
> 
> 
> 
> Possible relation to Indian languages and Thai??? that's another issue.



Yep, no doubting this root for 'create' exists in several Semitic languages, I'm questioning the supposed link to the Arabic (and apparently Persian) word for land بر that this thread is claiming.


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## john welch

I believe that speculation is not favoured in this Forum..but the Hebrew people were in Babylon and had close contact with Kurus Kambujiya, king of Persia and the Persian empire. Kamboj people with Persian Scythians ruled Punjab India 2000 BP and evidently traded with Thailand and took Sanskrit to the royal court (and to "Kampuchea" linked in some way with Kambojas).
If Heb. and Arabic "bara" sound similar to listeners today, possibly (?) the Persians took them as similar also.


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## sotos

In Greek the continent is _E-peir-os_. An old Gr. name for the Caucasus area was I-ber-ia. Might be relevant.


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## Abu Rashid

john welch said:


> If Heb. and Arabic "bara" sound similar to listeners today, possibly (?) the Persians took them as similar also.



John I think you're a little confused.

Both Arabic & Hebrew have the root b-r-ʔ which are exactly the same, meaning to create, and which exists also in Aramaic and Old South Arabian languages like Sabaic.

Arabic then has another word b-r which means land.

The two appear to have no connection, they merely appear similar in English transliteration, where the final radical of the root b-r-ʔ cannot be accurately represented in English.


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## john welch

Are the 2 words phonetically similar? Semantically, "world-creation" and "continent" may possibly be associated by a Persian listener.


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## Abu Rashid

john welch said:


> Are the 2 words phonetically similar?



No. That's the point, they're not.

No more than b-r-q for instance is similar. They share two letters. In Semitic languages, that means very little.


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## john welch

OK. Thanks


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## origumi

Abu Rashid said:


> Both Arabic & Hebrew have the root b-r-ʔ which are exactly the same, meaning to create, and which exists also in Aramaic and Old South Arabian languages like Sabaic.
> 
> Arabic then has another word b-r which means land.
> 
> The two appear to have no connection, they merely appear similar in English transliteration, where the final radical of the root b-r-ʔ cannot be accurately represented in English.


Two different roots indeed. _Create _from b-r-ʔ, (uncultivated) _land_ from b-w-r (compare to Heb. bur, Aram. bwr, Akk. burru).


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## Abu Rashid

Thanks origumi wasn't aware of that root.


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## origumi

I may have provided wrong info about root b-w-r, following http://www.freeweb.hu/etymological/AEDweb.htm (under _bara_).

According to http://books.google.co.il/books?id=t_9NkGsNtcYC&printsec=frontcover, root b-w-r exists also in Arabic for uncultivated land (p. 108), but Arabic _bar _(land) is derived from root b-r-r (p. 119). However, this book expands the meaning and variations of b-r-r to a level that may lead to doubts, by not questioning if this is really one root or several that look alike, .


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## Abu Rashid

Yes the word بوّر exists in Arabic, meaning to leave a land uncultivated.

The root b-r-r generally carries the meaning of goodness, pureness.


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## john welch

I was reluctant to bring in this Sumerian "bar" but it may relate to "goodness, pureness" and pharaoh's dance over his symbolic land:
http://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0766183424*...*L. Austine Waddell - 2004 - History - 736 pages
*...* *...* now appears to be the equivalent of the Egyptian *Par* ad or " *Pharaoh*. *...* derived from the *Sumerian Bar* or Bant, " *lord* " * — the form Prabhu adopted by *...*


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## origumi

john welch said:


> http://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0766183424*...*L. Austine Waddell - 2004 - History - 736 pages


Well, Waddell had some interesting theories that paratically nobody accepts today, such as IE background of the Sumerian language and Aryan ethnicity of this people. Qouting his claim that Egyptians come from Sumerian origin is meaningless.


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## john welch

The site didn't give that quote when I googled it, but only the possiblity of "bar" being borrowed or taken to Egypt by an early dynasty. It appears that Scythians and / or Kambojas traded horses from Afghanistan by ship to Sri Lanka down the west coast of India 300 BCE. It's possible that they carried post-Sumerian or Egyptian *"bara" ("pharaoh") to Thailand, or earlier Sum. /Egypt. contact with Thailand was the origin.


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## Tracer

1.  It's interesting to note in this context that the common word for MUD in Spanish is */barro/. * 

According to the REA <http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=barro> /barro/ is a pre-Roman era word possibly related to Celtic.

2.  The supposedly non-related but similar word */barrio/*  (now common in American English, esp. in the Southwest to mean a Latino "ghetto"), comes from the Arabic for "outside" < the Arabic for "savage", also according to the REA.


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## Outsider

That is interesting. Portuguese also has a word *barro*, but it means "clay".

I suspect, however, that the Semitic root *b-r-r* mentioned earlier would generally be manifested in three-syllable words (made-up example: _burari_); that is each "r" would belong to a different syllable.


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## ancalimon

@Tracer, @Outsider

We also have
Proto-Turkic: *bōr
Meaning: 1 chalk 2 earth 3 clay

Maybe related to Turkish yer (ground, earth, place, ~realm)

We also have "bark" in Turkish meaning house, secured - fenced place


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## Tracer

Outsider said:


> I suspect, however, that the Semitic root *b-r-r* mentioned earlier would generally be manifested in three-syllable words (made-up example: _burari_); that is each "r" would belong to a different syllable.



Well, actually, it's a little more complicated than that (I'm talking about the Arabic side of it). Let's see if I can clarify without putting my foot in my mouth .
In very simple terms:

1. There are several terms in Arabic in which the consonants B-R-R appear, most of which appear to be unrelated to each other. We also have the sequence* B-RR *in which the "r" is actually doubled. This sequence, in verbs, are called "doubled verbs" and, when written in Arabic,* B-RR *uses only 2 letters, not 3. (Although I believe some linguists insist that the "doubled" verbs in Arabic were originally tri-consonantal (C-C-C).

2. Then, we have the sequence* B-RR (noun)* which appears unrelated to the (verbs) B-R-R (also seen as B-RR) or the B-R-? mentioned above and previously. These verbs mean "to be pure, clear" etc for the former and "to create" for the latter term. 

3. It is this *B-RR (noun) *that has the meaning of* mainland, terra firma, open country* and so on*. *Again, this term appears unrelated to the verb B-R-R (also seen as 
B-RR) which means to be pure etc and is definitely unrelated to the verb B-R-?, which means " to create".
*
And, it is this term, this noun, that may have some connection both to Spanish /barro/ = mud and the Persian and Indian terms mentioned previously. 
Since the sequence /RR/ in Arabic is constant in this particular term with this particular meaning, its manifestation in Spanish as /barro/ is perfectly possible (if they are related at all).

*


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## Outsider

I see. Yes, that does make sense.


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## aruniyan

Abu Rashid said:


> Yes the word بوّر exists in Arabic, meaning to leave a land uncultivated.
> 
> The root b-r-r generally carries the meaning of goodness, pureness.




Abu,

Interesting, is there any connection between  English word "Barren" and this b-r-r, can you list some "pureness" related words?

in S.Indian/Dravidian, sound "va/ba" means "to come" and vaRi, vaRu  means to "take away that comes" or "*nothing comes out of it*".

_Varantha(Barren), Varumai (Poverty,Poor), Varri (Dried off), Varai(Barricade, Field bed/fence), _


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## john welch

The Sanskrit baray.
Wiki_ "A *baray* is an artificial body of water which is a common element of the architectural style of the Khmer Empire of Southeast Asia. The largest are the East Baray and West Baray in the Angkor area, each rectangular in shape, oriented east-west and measuring roughly five by one and a half miles. Historians are divided on the meaning and functions of barays. Some believe that they were primarily spiritual in purpose, symbolizing the seas surrounding Mount Meru, font of the Hindu cosmos. Others have theorized that they held water for irrigation of fields. It is possible that the function was a combination of these explanations, or others".


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