# æ exact pronunciation in British English



## L.P. Translator

Hello,

I know there are quite a few threads already open for this but if you allow me I would like to open a new one. What I want to ask, in fact, needs a thread of its own because is very specific.

After alot of of study and conversation practice, I still cannot figure out the TRUE sound of this phonetic symbol in BE: æ - in fact, despite all the sound samples I've heard on the various online dictionaries, it seems to me that every sample is different and this is confusing.

I have no problem talking to English speaking people, but sometimes wonder if I'm sounding strange. Sometimes I also hear different pronunciations from native English speakers. Is it "Have" with an "a" (the same sound of the italian "a" as in "grAzie") or is it an E as in "bEnt"? Word Reference says "/hæv/", but what does that symbol really mean? The same problem I have with "cat", "black" and other words. 

Can you shed a light on this and finally give me a rule of thumb to follow when talking? I would be very much greateful if you did. 


Kind regards,
Leonardo Paoletti


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## boozer

It is a lot closer to your grAzie than to the vowel sound in the English word 'bent'. In fact, pronouncing 'bad' the same as 'bed' is, for me, the most awful mistake. One reason is that the a/e opposition pair is a meaning distinguisher.


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## L.P. Translator

boozer said:


> It is a lot closer to your grAzie than to the vowel sound in the English word 'bent'. In fact, pronouncing 'bad' the same as 'bed' is, for me, the most awful mistake. One reason is that the a/e opposition pair is a meaning distinguisher.



Thank you very much! This makes me feel more confident that I do sound right when I talk. I, in fact, use the "italian a" in words such as "have", "bad", "cat", etc., but sometimes I'm afraid it sounds a little bit exaggerated to native speakers because I often hear some of them saying "bad" as in "bed". Can we say that it's an "a" as in "grAzie" but pronounced with your mouth a little more closed?


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## Keith Bradford

I'm sure we've had this question before, and I think the best advice was "whatever you try to approximate it to in any other language, it's an A sound and not an E sound". From my little knowledge of Italian, I'd say pronounce it like an Italian A, but with the mouth a little less open.  (And I hadn't read your post when I wrote this, honest!)

The difficulty is that in the past 60 years or so, the British idea of "proper" pronunciation has changed radically, and if you listen to radio recordings of the 1950s you'll hear the BBC pronunciation which was distinctly "to talk like thet". In fact, one of the biggest laughs in _Some Like it Hot _is from saying, with a Cary Grant accent "Nobudy tulks like thet eny more".

Nowadays, far more people on radio will be heard pronouncing the short A as /æ/ - a frank A-sound. To say /hev/ is seen as old-fashioned, upper-class and/or pretentious.


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## L.P. Translator

Thank you Keith, we said the same thing indeed! 

I knew that upper class people spoke like that but living in Italy and listening to the modern days' BBC I have so few occasions of hearing upper class people talk, that I was confused whether you pronounced all words like that or not in Standard English. Your posts shed alot of light upon this - thank you!

I'm also going to listen to old BBC recordings more carefully and compare them with modern BBC programs.


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## entangledbank

The old RP sound was midway between two of your Italian vowels; nowadays it's practically the same as your /a/, and that symbol is now widely used for it rather than /æ/. Here is a very good and detailed exploration of the changes in the shades of sound, with audio clips from famous people to illustrate it.


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## boozer

"Nobudy tulks like thet eny more" - well, 'eny' has always been an exception anyway.


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## L.P. Translator

Is "eny" correct then? This adds confusion to the already confusing question.


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## Keith Bradford

Yes, there are a few words like _any _and _many _that everybody pronounces with an /e/.


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## L.P. Translator

entangledbank said:


> The old RP sound was midway between two of your Italian vowels; nowadays it's practically the same as your /a/, and that symbol is now widely used for it rather than /æ/. Here is a very good and detailed exploration of the changes in the shades of sound, with audio clips from famous people to illustrate it.



This is really interesting and useful! Thank you very much.


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## L.P. Translator

Keith Bradford said:


> Yes, there are a few words like _any _and _many _that everybody pronounces with an /e/.



Do you think there could possibly be a list of these words on the Internet?


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## natkretep

Have a read of these threads for similar discussions:
pronunciation: æ (ash vowel) [cat; black] as pronounced by young speakers of English pronunciation: British "a" sound


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## L.P. Translator

natkretep said:


> Have a read of these threads for similar discussions:
> *pronunciation: æ (ash vowel) [cat; black] as pronounced by young speakers of English*
> 
> *pronunciation: British "a" sound*



Thanks, quoting last poster of the thread in your first link: _Again, this particular phenomenon (change of pronunciation of /æ/) isn't true for "every younger speaker of English", because the large majority were never in an environment where 'conservative RP' was spoken (see my #9).

As for those brought up in a 'posh environment' being immune to the change, I'd say not. From my personal experience of 'top drawer' families, those who "hev some jem" for tea (conservative RP) are usually in the grandparent-generation. The next generation down (RP) already "have some jam", and the youngsters may have an even more lowered /a/. 

The same evolution can be heard amongst BBC newsreaders and presenters, when comparing recordings of the '50s and early '60s with later broadcasts by contemporary RP speakers. The British royal family offers another example: comparing the Queen's distinctive/æ/ with the pronunciation of her children, and then again with that of her grandchildren, shows three stages of change.
_

It seems to me that this is quite a controversial argument. In the second thread you've linked there are people who say that the "a" sound instead of "ae" has been around for decades while others suggest that it's been adopted recently by younger speakers (if I'm not mistaken). Also, in Italy, we never get to listen to the Queen herself - rather we listen to who is translating her speeches - so the majority of the English speaking italian population isn't even aware of the differences between RP and Standard English - or so I suppose. This is the reason why many italians who speak English use the "a" and the "ae" sound interchangeably, they just don't know that there are different "schools of thought" on this argument, so we are very confused. I am going to see some videos of the British Royal Family and hear the differences with BBC broadcasters etc.


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## Keith Bradford

I can understand why you're confused, L.P. and it doesn't help that people talk about the "change of pronunciation of _/æ/_". Of course there has been no change in the pronunciation of _/_æ/, because /æ/ is an international absolute. 

What there has been is a shift in the pronunciation of words like "_that bad man"_. In 1950, most people on radio and in films pronounced them as /ðet bed men/. (It's an accent often described as "clipped" or "brittle".) Why? Because that was the "posh" accent and by and large only "posh" people were employed to make those films and broadcasts, with the exception of "character" parts who might speak with a cockney, Scots, Welsh or other regional accent. And until around 1960 these non-RP accents were never heard on news or documentary programmes.

Since about the time of the Beatles, there has been an increase in the number of voices heard publicly, speaking with other accents. These other accents were always there; since I could begin to speak I have always said /ðæt bæd mæn/, as did everyone in my working-class milieu. I rather doubt whether there has been a massive increase in the prevalence of that accent, but there has certainly been a reduction in the other ("posh") one. Even the Queen's accent has become attenuated over the years, less "brittle".

If you can't get hold of earlier recordings, simply imagine a version of English where all words written with the letter 'a' are pronounced as either /ɑ:/ or /e/, and every word is articulated very precisely.

SO: "Who's that man coming up the path?"
1950s "posh": /hwu:z ðet me:n kæmiŋ æp ðə pɑ:θ/
Modern RP: /hu:z ðæt mæn kʌmiŋ ʌp ðə pɑ:θ/ (Southern England)

(I hope I've got those phonetics right - I'm not fluent in IPA.)


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## L.P. Translator

Keith Bradford said:


> I can understand why you're confused, L.P. and it doesn't help that people talk about the "change of pronunciation of _/æ/_". Of course there has been no change in the pronunciation of _/_æ/, because /æ/ is an international absolute.
> 
> What there has been is a shift in the pronunciation of words like "_that bad man"_. In 1950, most people on radio and in films pronounced them as /ðet bed men/. (It's an accent often described as "clipped" or "brittle".) Why? Because that was the "posh" accent and by and large only "posh" people were employed to make those films and broadcasts, with the exception of "character" parts who might speak with a cockney, Scots, Welsh or other regional accent. And until around 1960 these non-RP accents were never heard on news or documentary programmes.
> 
> Since about the time of the Beatles, there has been an increase in the number of voices heard publicly, speaking with other accents. These other accents were always there; since I could begin to speak I have always said /ðæt bæd mæn/, as did everyone in my working-class milieu. I rather doubt whether there has been a massive increase in the prevalence of that accent, but there has certainly been a reduction in the other ("posh") one. Even the Queen's accent has become attenuated over the years, less "brittle".
> 
> If you can't get hold of earlier recordings, simply imagine a version of English where all words written with the letter 'a' are pronounced as either /ɑ:/ or /e/, and every word is articulated very precisely.
> 
> SO: "Who's that man coming up the path?"
> 1950s "posh": /hwu:z ðet me:n kæmiŋ æp ðə pɑ:θ/
> Modern RP: /hu:z ðæt mæn kʌmiŋ ʌp ðə pɑ:θ/ (Southern England)
> 
> (I hope I've got those phonetics right - I'm not fluent in IPA.)



Thank you Keith, this is just what I was looking for. It has helped me to better understand why there seem to be so many different pronounciations of the phonem.

<<Forum Rule #4: No  links to YouTube are permitted.>> . Also, I'm studying Standard British English so as to sound as much as an educated and neutral British English speaker as possible (it would make no sense for me to imitate a regional dialect when I was born so far away from England - unlike some young people do, especially with the American accent). Do you suggest me to avoid any form of posh speech? I seem to understand that English people, or at least "normal" English people, don't like posh accents.


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## Keith Bradford

L.P. Translator said:


> ...Do you suggest me to avoid any form of posh speech? I seem to understand that English people, or at least "normal" English people, don't like posh accents.



To be honest, I used the word "posh" to mean upper class without using the term Received Pronunciation, because RP changes from year to year.

The people using the 1950s "posh" accent are very few and elderly, nowadays. It's become a minority custom, and a foreign learner would be best advised to adopt a more mainstream accent. Essentially, you have the choice between southern (/pɑ:θ bɑ:θ/) and northern (pæθ bæθ/); both are good, just choose one or the other. But in both of them, the short 'A' has now tended towards /æ/.


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## L.P. Translator

Keith Bradford said:


> To be honest, I used the word "posh" to mean upper class without using the term Received Pronunciation, because RP changes from year to year.
> 
> The people using the 1950s "posh" accent are very few and elderly, nowadays. It's become a minority custom, and a foreign learner would be best advised to adopt a more mainstream accent. Essentially, you have the choice between southern (/pɑ:θ bɑ:θ/) and northern (pæθ bæθ/); both are good, just choose one or the other. But in both of them, the short 'A' has now tended towards /æ/.



OK thank you for all your useful replies! There's really nothing you've left unanswered.

 Of course, thanks to all the others too - and if anyone wants to add something and tell us how he pronounces "cat" and "black" in his region is most welcome!

PS: I've just noticed that JulianStuart removed my link to a YouTube video. I apologise! I'll pay more attention next time.


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## Loob

Keith Bradford said:


> ...
> Modern RP: /hu:z ðæt mæn kʌmiŋ ʌp ðə pɑ:θ/ (Southern England)
> 
> (I hope I've got those phonetics right - I'm not fluent in IPA.)


Erm - Keith, I think that /æ/ is, precisely, the sound that was used in British films of the 1940s for "hat", "bag" etc.

It's also used for AmE "hat"/"bag". 

As etb says, today's "Standard Southern British English" pronunciation of the vowel sound in "hat" and "bag" is better represented by /a/


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## boozer

Thanks for saying this, Loob. The thing is, /æ/ has always been /æ/ and 'bad' and 'bed' have always been different. At least they seem to have been in the 50s and 60s based on the BBC videos and Christmas speeches of HM the Queen that I saw yesterday and early this morning. They seem to have been back in the 30s and 40s based on what I heard from King George. All in all, I can only ever imagine the British /æ/ sounding like /e/ when deliberately exaggerated to the point of mockery. This old /æ/ mentioned by KB is the one I was taught more than 30 years ago - in communism the latest fashion and trends hit us with substantial delays . I remember being taught to open my mouth as if to articulate /e/ (our /e/ being the same as the English one) but say /a/ instead. The resulting vowel has never been /e/, not even close. Of course, I soon discovered that even that classical /æ/ was a bit exaggerated in comparison with the sound produced by my first English teacher (the fellow was from Birmingham and I hope he is still alive and well!). If I had to describe mathematically what I make of the old /æ/, I would say it contained 60% of the /a/ component (/a/ being for me a shorter version of the sound heard in fAther) and 40% of /e/. Maybe in recent years there has been a shift towards an increase of the /a/ component, so now my /æ/ contains something like 80% of it, sometimes even more. I suppose this is what KB was describing...


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## L.P. Translator

Loob said:


> Erm - Keith, I think that /æ/ is, precisely, the sound that was used in British films of the 1940s for "hat", "bag" etc.
> 
> It's also used for AmE "hat"/"bag".
> 
> As etb says, today's "Standard Southern British English" pronunciation of the vowel sound in "hat" and "bag" is better represented by /a/





So what do I make of it when I see this on the dictionary?: /hæv/ - do I just choose how to pronounce it? (I guess that's why the symbol is made of an a and an e!)

Thanks also to boozer, his percentual description is really useful.


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## natkretep

The symbol that is used in a dictionary is always a compromise. The symbol indicates a phoneme that might be realised differently in different phonological contexts and by speakers of different accents. There is no inconsistency in realising /hæv/ as [hav].


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## L.P. Translator

I see. Thank you!


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## boozer

But whatever you do, never say /e/ when you have to say /æ/.


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## L.P. Translator

boozer said:


> But whatever you do, never say /e/ when you have to say /æ/.



I understand, thank you. Earlier we've said that there are certain words that are always pronounced with "e" and I'm still looking for a list on Google but can't find anything. I guess it all comes with practice. I may even know all the world already but you can never tell


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## natkretep

It's only _any_ (and its derived words) and _many_ I think. (There was a thread on this that I remember reading but cannot find it now.)

You might also consider -_are_ type words like _care, bare, mare, dare, chary_. For some people, the pronunciation is [ɛː].


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## L.P. Translator

OK, thank you!


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## boozer

If there was such a list anywhere, it would be a short one. I can only think of any, many and Thames /temz/ for now. As you see, the third word is not one likely to be used much outside England


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## L.P. Translator

Ahah indeed!


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## Loob

natkretep said:


> ... (There was a thread on this that I remember reading but cannot find it now.) ...


Is this the thread you were thinking of, Nat: Letter <a> as sound /e/?


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## natkretep

Clever Looby!!! Yes, that's the one. So from that list, there's also _says/said_ and _ate_​.


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## L.P. Translator

Thank you Loob!

Just one question: do you also say "man" as "/man/" and men as "/men/"?


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## boozer

Of those three I would consider only 'ate' as a good candidate for our list. The others cannot logically be pronounced with /æ/ anyway.


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## sound shift

L.P. Translator said:


> Thank you Loob!
> 
> Just one question: do you also say "man" as "/man/" and men as "/men/"?


I don't. I pronounce "man" as /mæn/ and "men" as /men/ (but I'm not Loob, who will no doubt re-appear soon).


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## L.P. Translator

sound shift said:


> (but I'm not Loob, who will no doubt re-appear soon).



Your contribute is most welcome as well. 

I beg pardon for my usage of the "a" character to symbolise the sound of the phonem "æ", as it seems it may have confused you.

What I was asking is if do you in fact say "man" as /mæn/. We've earlier come to the conclusion that "æ" is generally pronounced as the italian "a" in most part of England, and that's why I said /man/.

Thank you!


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## sound shift

Well, I'm not an expert in the Italian "a", but _as far as I am aware_ I do in fact pronounce "man" as /maen/.


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## L.P. Translator

sound shift said:


> Well, I'm not an expert in the Italian "a", but _as far as I am aware_ I do in fact pronounce "man" as /maen/.



If you've ever heard an italian saying "grAzie", that's the "italian a"


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## Loob

L.P. Translator said:


> ... Just one question: do you also say "man" as "/man/" and men as "/men/"?


I'd say I have [a] in "man" and [ɛ] in "men".

Sound shift and I are from different parts of the country, so it would not be at all surprising if we had rather different vowel sounds.


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## sound shift

OK, thanks, but I've never paid much attention to the word 'grazie'. From now on I shall listen hard to Montalbano and his colleagues. Actually, /a/ is not listed in the inventory of the phonemes of Southern British English (my variety of English) that appears in König and van der Auwera, _The Germanic Languages._ From some of the posts in this thread, it seems that there has in recent years been a move towards /man/ in the South, but it hasn't affected me. In any case, /man/ is traditional in standard English spoken with an accent from the North of England.


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## sound shift

Loob said:


> I'd say I have [a] in "man" and [ɛ] in "men".
> 
> Sound shift and I are from different parts of the country, so it would not be at all surprising if we had rather different vowel sounds.


Yes, but I don't speak with a Derby accent, Mrs L. If I spoke with a _traditional _Derby accent, I too would say /man/. Around here, I've noticed a gradual change from /man/ to /mæn/ over the last few decades.


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## L.P. Translator

sound shift said:


> OK, thanks, but I've never paid much attention to the word 'grazie'. From now on I shall listen hard to Montalbano and his colleagues.



So you watch italian TV-series, nice! Anyhow, "grazie" was just an example, as it is the same "a" of all the other words (fame, cane, banane, fontane, collega, analisi, etc.), aside from the à.


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## Einstein

Sorry to join in late, but as a British resident in Italy I want to say that I welcome LPT's interest in this subject. Unfortunately we all make a certain kind of mistake in pronouncing foreign languages; without hearing directly from native speakers we "learn" to make certain transformations and once we know these we "know" the language concerned. Thus English-speakers, mainly American and Southern British, use the long "a" as in "barn" to pronounce words in other European languages; Don Giovanni becomes Don Giovaahni, for instance.
In Italy the idea exists/existed that if you change every "a" to an "e" you know how to speak English! Other features are ignored, so "automatic" becomes "owtometic", while "Harry" becomes "Erry". In fact the most important pronunciations for Italians to learn are "h" and "th", but these are blithely ignored while going into contortions to pronounce "mass" as "mess", "sample" as "semple", "glamour" as "glemour" and so on.
There is also confusion between the "ei" dipthong and the short "æ", so "nation", with "ei", and "national", with "æ", are both pronounced with an "e". Cathy and Katie both become "Keti".

A lot of this comes from attempting to imitate American pronunciation. Of course it's true that the American "æ" has a stronger element of "e", but even as a Brit I can distinguish between the American pronunciations of "man" and "men". I find that Americans too dislike the A->E transformation.


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## L.P. Translator

Hello Einstein,

Thank you very much for your warm welcome. There's no doubt you really live in Italy as you've described perfectly how most italians speak English. It's funny because while so many British (and American?) people use the long "a" for the phonem "æ", we try to speak correct English pronouncing every "a" as an "e". I've been listening to American music and watching American TV for a long time, before deciding that I should study Standard English instead, and was indeed surprised - when I started listening to the BBC - to discover that they said "haappy", "maan", "caat", etc., instead of "heppy", "men", etc. and still, this thread proves that I was still confused about this question  (thanks to your answers I have a clearer idea of how its pronounced now).


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## Sepia

Keith Bradford said:


> I'm sure we've had this question before, and I think the best advice was "whatever you try to approximate it to in any other language, ...



If you had the slightest idea how it is taught to be pronounced in some European countries you'd wonder why this question in not asked more frequently. In Germany numbers of people claim it should be pronounced like the German letter "ä", totally disregarding the fact that you'd come closer to some actually existing English dialect by pronouncing it like in grAzie. They claim to have learned that in school.

It was even down to the fact where MacDonalds had this item on the menu: BigMäc


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## Einstein

L.P. Translator said:


> Hello Einstein,
> 
> Thank you very much for your warm welcome. There's no doubt you really live in Italy as you've described perfectly how most italians speak English. It's funny because while so many British (and American?) people use the long "a" for the phonem "æ", we try to speak correct English pronouncing every "a" as an "e". I've been listening to American music and watching American TV for a long time, before deciding that I should study Standard English instead, and was indeed surprised - when I started listening to the BBC - to discover that they said "haappy", "maan", "caat", etc., instead of "heppy", "men", etc. and still, this thread proves that I was still confused about this question  (thanks to your answers I have a clearer idea of how its pronounced now).


Congratulations on your English, L.P.!
I just want to specify something about the "long" A. When I say "long", I'm not just referring to its length, but also to its sound. In the north of England the "A" was always similar to the Italian "A". Going southward, we saw a differentiation in *two *directions: one towards the "e", producing the /æ/ sound, and the other with a rounder sound, with a touch of "o", represented as /ɑː/. So while the words "apple" and "ask" had the same pronunciation in the north, the south differentiated between the two, neither word having the same pronunciation as in the north. "Ask" had a long pronunciation and this is what I meant by a long "a". Usually in Britain the /æ/ sound is quite short. In American pronunciation we get a long /æ/ in some words, like "grass" and "ask", which in southern British are pronounced with a long  /ɑː/.
I've used the past tense because, as others have said, the southern "ask/apple" differentiation has softened a lot in the last 50 years or so.

By the way, in Italy the name Apple is usually pronounced Epple, but sometimes even Eiple! Another curiosity is that in names that contains two A's the common practice is to transform only one of them, so the Italians insist on "Intern*e*tional", but precede it tranquilly with "*A*mnesty", not "*E*mnesty".

In Milan there is a road called via Kant, which a lot of people call via Kent. But Immanuel Kant was German, not English!


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, Ein. 

It's always a pleasure to cross paths with you. Sorry I haven't read/heard from you for eons now.
Funny — and obviously true — what you have to say about our shibboleths. May I just add a wee _perfezionamento_ to your depiction of the Italian rendering of "A/apple"?
Yes?
Here goes:
/ 'ɛppol /

GS


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## More od Solzi

L.P. Translator said:


> Hello,
> 
> I know there are quite a few threads already open for this but if you allow me I would like to open a new one. What I want to ask, in fact, needs a thread of its own because is very specific.
> 
> After alot of of study and conversation practice, I still cannot figure out the TRUE sound of this phonetic symbol in BE: æ - in fact, despite all the sound samples I've heard on the various online dictionaries, it seems to me that every sample is different and this is confusing.
> 
> I have no problem talking to English speaking people, but sometimes wonder if I'm sounding strange. Sometimes I also hear different pronunciations from native English speakers. Is it "Have" with an "a" (the same sound of the italian "a" as in "grAzie") or is it an E as in "bEnt"? Word Reference says "/hæv/", but what does that symbol really mean? The same problem I have with "cat", "black" and other words.
> 
> Can you shed a light on this and finally give me a rule of thumb to follow when talking? I would be very much greateful if you did.
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> Leonardo Paoletti



In modern RP /æ/ is a front vowel [a],
that's why new British dictionaries are using /a/:

cat [kat]
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cat?rskey=XH2bu7&result=2#m_en_gb0128530

bad [bad]
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bad

Professor Upton modified IPA symbols of RP 10 years ago,
and Oxford dictionaries for native speakers (like COD and SOED) embraced it.


There is no confusion between _cat _and _cut_,
because the _cut _vowel  (''strut vowel'' /ʌ/) went back from a lowered [a]-like pronunciation (common in London before 1980ies) to higher [ɐ], in southern RP and Estuary.

(In ''Welsh'' RP ''the strut vowel''  is [ə   ], in ''Northern RP'' it's [ ʊ ] or less frequently [ ə  ])

*cut *[kät] is now  the norm only in Australian English.


Even in California and in Canada, many people pronounce_ cat, bad _with a vowel that is more like front [a] than like [æ]:  bad [a]
    (at the same time /ɛ/ gets pronounced like [æ]: y[æ ]llow, listen to Katy Perry pronounce _breakfast _in her newest offering  ''This is how we do''  it's more like [brækfəst], or pay attention to the way she pronounces _last night's dress_: [last naits dræs].

On the other hand, _cat _[ke:t] is the norm in Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Buffalo and in New Zealand, so their _bad  _is [be:d],  and their _bed _is something I can't even describe with IPA symbols [_beeyed _in Chicago, _beed _in New Zealand).


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## L.P. Translator

Einstein said:


> Congratulations on your English, L.P.!



Thank you! Even though I'm sure it's far from perfect. 

What you have said about italian English speakers is 100% true as also Giorgio has confirmed. What's more funny is that I often have to forget my proper English pronounciation rules to make me understand by Italian people when I speak English. Not everyone can understand a true British or American accent (which I do not claim to imitate well) here so I have to throw in "r"'s and whatnot, or I risk of not being understood or even worse to sound ridicolous!

EDIT: one of the worst mistakes Italians make is pronouncing "club" as "kleb" - I have to admit that even I fall into the trap sometimes, out of habit.


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## kalamazoo

By the way, unless your accent is awfully good, I don't think it's likely that British people will think you sound 'posh.'  They are most likely to think you sound Italian!  Not a bad thing.


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## L.P. Translator

kalamazoo said:


> Not a bad thing.



I suppose it isn't. It just shows one's got much more to study.


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## boozer

More od Solzi said:


> On the other hand, _cat _[ke:t] is the norm in Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Buffalo and in New Zealand, so their _bad  _is [be:d],  and their _bed _is something I can't even describe with IPA symbols [_beeyed _in Chicago, _beed _in New Zealand).


I suppose , Sea of Tears, that this is what you hear. It would be interesting to see if someone from, say, Chicago or New Zealand, would admit to saying /ke:t/ or /keet/ to mean cat.


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## More od Solzi

Nah, I was referring to phonetics (phones) and not to phonology (phonemes). 
That would be something like this: cat  /kæt/ [kʰeət̚   ]   or     [kʰɪət̚    ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift#Raising_and_tensing_of_.2F.C3.A6.2F


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## Susan Y

boozer said:


> It would be interesting to see if someone from, say, Chicago or New Zealand, would admit to saying /ke:t/ or /keet/ to mean cat.



I can't speak about Chicago, but can say from experience that in a strong NZ accent "cat" sounds a lot like /kɛt/.

See also this extract from the Wikipedia article on NZ English:



The most obvious vowel shift in New Zealand English from other kinds is /æ/ (as in trap) which is usually realised as a slightly raised [æ] in the majority of New Zealanders. In Broader varieties it is often raised to [ɛ], so that /æ/ encroaches on /ɛ/ for some speakers. This vowel shift is shared by South African English speakers and is one of the main reasons American English speakers may mistake New Zealanders for South Africans. In the phrase "the cat sat on the mat" this is heard by the rest of the English speaking world as "the ket set on the met". A "laptop" is heard by non-New Zealanders as "leptop" and a "tablet" as a "teblet."


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## Faffa94

Sorry if I reply after many years, so "æ" sound is like "short a" in UK?


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## kentix

Here's the Word Reference dictionary entry for cat, with pronunciation samples from different varieties of English. They all sound functionally the same to me, except for the US Southern one, which uses a stronger US Southern accent that shows more changes. Not all Southern accents are as strong as that.

cat - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


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## Keith Bradford

Faffa94 said:


> Sorry if I reply after many years, so "æ" sound is like "short a" in UK?


Yes, the IPA /æ/ symbol represents the sound of a short "a" very similar to the Italian "g*a*tto".


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