# space, place



## ThomasK

I just noticed the word 'space' was translated as 'intervalle' in French, not 'espace' - which I understand to some extent, but I wonder. I started wondering how you translate both words (concepts ???) - and how you use them in contexts. 

1a. I want more ... to live.  (E space)
1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) 
2a. I want a ... to sit.  (E place)
2b. This is my ... ! (E place)
3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of)
Feel free to add some more. 

Dutch: 1 = ruimte ; 2 plaats ; 3 = in plaats.


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## jazyk

This is how I would do it in Portuguese:

1a, 1b - espaço
 2ab, 2b - espaço or lugar
3 - no meu lugar, em vez de mim or Foi ele que fez isso, não eu.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

1a. «Χώρος» ('xoros, _m._); Classical masculine noun «χῶρος» ('xōrŏs)--> _a definite space, piece of ground, place_. Its feminine "version" «χώρα» («χῶρα» in the ancient language) means _country_; with obscure etymology (some philologists suggest from PIE base *ǵʰe- (1), _yawn_)
1b. «Διάστημα» (ði'astima, _n._); Classical neuter noun «διάστημα» (dĭ'ăstēmă)--> _interval, extension, dimension_ and in the modern language, _space_. A derivation of the verb «διΐστημι» (dĭ'ĭstēmĭ)--> _to set apart, separate_ (PIE base *sta-, _to stand_).
2a. «Χώρος» or «μέρος» ('meros, _n._); Classical neuter noun «μέρος» ('mĕrŏs)--> init. _share, portion_ later _one's part, place_. A derivation of the Classical verb (it has not survived in the modern language) «μείρομαι» ('meirŏæ)--> _to take one's share/part_ (PIE base (s)mer-, _to remember_).
2b. «Χώρος»
3. None of the above. A simple «αντί» (an'di) suffices. Classical preposition «ἀντὶ» (ān'tĭ)--> _opposite, over against, instead_ (PIE base *anti, _against_).


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## ThomasK

@jazyk: would there be a slight difference between lugar and espaço in 2a/b? We have _ruimte_, space, and _een ruimte_, a place, or rather a room. Could it something the like ? 

@apmoy:  
- would you think the word Χώρος/Διάστημα  can still be recognized in certain present-day technical/ scientific words ? Nothing like kosmos in 1b ? 
- could Χώρος 1 and 2 be distinguished as a result of the determiner ? 
- ἀντὶ: so only an indirect reference to place/ space, that is?


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## AutumnOwl

1a. I want more ... to live.  (E space) _utrymme, _but _rum_ could also be used
1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) rymdI would guess both words are connected to _rum_ = room

2a. I want a ... to sit.  (E place)_ plats_
2b. This is my ... ! (E place) _plats_

3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) 
_Han gjorde det istället för mig_ or _Han gjorde det i mitt ställe_
_Ställe_ can mean _place_, for example gömställe = hiding place, or ett ställe i boken = a place in the book


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## Frank78

ThomasK said:


> In German:
> 
> 1a. I want more ... to live.  = "Platz" or "Raum", "Raum" sounds a bit more spacious
> 1b. Satellites out in ...  = "Raum" or more precisely "Weltraum/Weltall"
> 2a. I want a ... to sit. = Platz
> 2b. This is my ... ! = Platz
> 3. He did it in ... of me. = none, I'd use "Stelle"
> 
> Dutch: 1 = ruimte ; 2 plaats ; 3 = in plaats.


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## catlady60

ThomasK said:


> I just noticed the word 'space' was translated as 'intervalle' in French, not 'espace' - which I understand to some extent, but I wonder. I started wondering how you translate both words (concepts ???) - and how you use them in contexts.
> 
> 1a. I want more ... to live.  (E space)
> 1b. Satellites out in ... (id.)
> 2a. I want a ... to sit.  (E place)
> 2b. This is my ... ! (E place)
> 3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of)
> Feel free to add some more.


In English:
1a. I want more _room _or _space_ to live.
1b. Satellites out in _space._
2a. I want a _place _or _spot _to sit.
2b. This is my _place! _
3. He did it _instead of me._


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## ThomasK

@Frank78: 3 - normally it would be *'statt'*, wouldn't it? _(As in 'Stätte', I suppose. We have some traces of that in the old word 'stee' and of course in G. Stadt/Dutch stad)_

@catlady: the word *'room' *reminds me of 'ruimte', but indeed in some cases one can use both. And your *'stead' *will be based on the same root as German 'Stätte' and our Dutch 'stee/ stad'.

@AutumnOwl: can you use utrymme with and without a determiner? 

I find it interesting to see that ‘I have more [S/P] in my/ this new [S/P]’ is not nonsensical or pleonastic, only stylistically strange:

E _room/ space at my place/ in my room_G _mehr Raum/ Platz in meinem/dem Raum ? _
D _meer ruimte/plaats in mijn kamer (Zimmer, room)/ in die ruimte_
S _utrymme in … (???)_
G _Χώροςen mi… Διάστημαi/ μέροi/ Χώροi ??? 
Port Espaço en mi.. lugar ? 
_F _lieu dans mon/ma … _


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> @apmoy:
> - would you think the word Χώρος/Διάστημα  can still be recognized in certain present-day technical/ scientific words ?


Well, in science, the theory of spacetime is «χωρόχρονος» (xo'roxronos, _m._). 
In Star-Trek, the TV franchise, the famous initial quote "Space, the final frontier" in Greek begins with «Διάστημα...» 


ThomasK said:


> Nothing like kosmos in 1b ?


 Kosmos is used in the context of the inhabited world or the mankind in general


ThomasK said:


> - could Χώρος 1 and 2 be distinguished as a result of the determiner ?
> - ἀντὶ: so only an indirect reference to place/ space, that is?


Yes and Yes


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## ThomasK

Efcharisto, Kyrio Apmoy! ;-) I am quite surprised to hear that you only use 'kosmos' in the context of the inhabited world. So your astro..., err, kosmonauts don't travel to the kosmos, do they?


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## Frank78

ThomasK said:


> @Frank78: 3 - normally it would be *'statt'*, wouldn't it? _(As in 'Stätte', I suppose. We have some traces of that in the old word 'stee' and of course in G. Stadt/Dutch stad)_



Er tat es an meiner Stelle. = He did it and "took my position".
Er tat es statt mir. = He did it instead of me.

Stelle is another word which approximately means the same as place but also position, site and spot. I'm suprised that there's no Dutch equivalent.


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## ThomasK

Interesting observation. I think all those terms (or almost all) are now rendered using 'plaats' (_hij nam _[took]_ mijn plaats in, hij deed het in mijn plaats_). _Plaats _seems to be very general indeed. (All those _stel_-words in Dutch (_stellen, een stel,..._) are no longer productive)


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## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> I just noticed the word 'space' was translated as 'intervalle' in French, not 'espace' - which I understand to some extent, but I wonder. I started wondering how you translate both words (concepts ???) - and how you use them in contexts.
> 
> 1a. I want more ... to live.  (E space)
> 1b. Satellites out in ... (id.)
> 2a. I want a ... to sit.  (E place)
> 2b. This is my ... ! (E place)
> 3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of)
> Feel free to add some more.
> 
> Dutch: 1 = ruimte ; 2 plaats ; 3 = in plaats.


 In Pilipino: 1.) Gusto ko nang _mas maaliwalas_ na lugar na matitirahan. 1b.) Mga Satelayt sa _Kalawakan_. 2a.) Gusto ko ng may _puwang_ na mauupuan.  2b.) Ito ang _lugar_ ko.  3.) Ginawa nya iyon_ para_ sa akin.    In Tagalog: 1.) Ibig ko sa higit na _maaliwalas_ na Tahanan. 1b)Mga kagamitang pangkalawakan sa _kalawakan_. 2a.) Ibig ko nang may _dakong_ mauupuan. 3.)Siya ang gumawa _para_ sa akin.


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## ThomasK

Ciao, Sr M, thanks for the information. But would it be possible to select the _sp_/_place_-words from your sentences , just the _sp/place_-words? Do I recognize Spanish/ Portuguese _lugar _(and gusta) ? 

Do tell me the difference between Pilippino and Tagalog!


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## mataripis

Tagalog is older version and Pilipino is the modern one.Pilipino is based on Tagalog plus words from Spanish and English and local dialects.Lugar is for Place and Espasyo for Space(In Pilipino). But in some grammars (Tagalog) ,Place is "Dako" and Space is "Puwang". But when in outer space it is "Kalawakan" from root word "Luwang"(Space or spacious).The "Instead" in Tagalog is "Sa Halip" so if i give another translation, "Ginawa nya iyo sa  halip na ako."


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## itreius

> 1a. I want more ... to live.  (E space)


1a. Želim više _prostora_ za život.
*prostor* - space, room
Also, 
*prostorija* - room



> 1b. Satellites out in ... (id.)


1.b Sateliti u _svemiru_.
*svemir* (< _sve_ = all, _mir_ ~ world) - space, universe



> 2a. I want a ... to sit.  (E place)


2a. Želim _mjesto_ za sjesti.
*mjesto* - place, space, town



> 2b. This is my ... ! (E place)


2b. Ovo je moje _mjesto_.
*mjesto*



> 3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of)


3. Učinio/napravio je to _umjesto_ mene.
*umjesto* - in place of


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## ThomasK

@M : I see, thanks. So you have both _puwang _and _luwang_, meaning space (...). But I notice some other words in your first contribution; I see _para _instead of _sa halip,_ and I see_ maaliwalas _and _kalawakan...

_@I : don't you have something like *gorod/grad *meaning town as well (or only in Russian)? _Sve-mir_: interesting, but doesn't *mir *also mean 'peace'? And so no link at all between 1a and 1b? _(I only mean: starting from Germanic roots, we tend to think it is logical to refer to both spaces as related, but that is not so self-evident as it seems, then...)_


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## itreius

Yes, there's indeed the word *grad* meaning city or town. Mjesto generally refers to towns or perhaps "smaller" towns.

As for svemir, the _mir_ part does actually mean _peace_ in BCS. I might have made a mistake by only including one of the meanings in Old Slavic, where mir represented both _peace_ and _world_. The former one might actually make more sense for creating the word _svemir_ now that I think about it.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Efcharisto, Kyrio Apmoy! ;-) I am quite surprised to hear that you only use 'kosmos' in the context of the inhabited world.


Well that's what happens when the christian theological language intermingles with well-structured, pre-judaeochristian philosophical concepts, for a few centuries. Since the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (translated around 3rd c. BC by 72 Jewish scholars with impeccable knowledge of the Greek of the era), kosmos is the inhabited world, the ecumene.


ThomasK said:


> So your astro..., err, kosmonauts don't travel to the kosmos, do they?


No, our astronauts don't travel to the kosmos but to the «διάστημα».
What you describe as the kosmos (i.e. universe), for us is the «σύμπαν» ('simban, _n._), an ancient compound word (sūmpān): Preposition and prefix «σὺν» (sūn), older form «ξὺν» (ksūn)--> _together, at once, with, including_ + neuter adj. «πᾶν» (pān)--> _all, the whole_; «σύμπαν» is a word invented by Isocrates (436–338 BC) to describe the _wholeness of the universe_


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## jazyk

> @jazyk: would there be a slight difference between lugar and espaço in 2a/b? We have _ruimte_, space, and _een ruimte_, a place, or rather a room. Could it something the like ?


I don't see any, but others may disagree with me.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, gentleman. And you "rightly" remind me, Apmoy, of the fact that words do not correspond to abstract or no, universal concepts (or should I put it differently ?). Quite interesting indeed!


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*.
1a. _Haluan enemmän elintilaa. _(*tila*, space or room _to do sth_)
1a'. NOTE: _Heille ei ollut sijaa/tilaa majatalossa. _There was no room for them at the inn. (*sija*, _in this very phrase__:_ room, *tila*)

1b. _avaruuden satelliitit _or _avaruudessa kiertävät sateliitit_ (*avaruus*, astr. space or a clearing)
2a. _Haluan istumapaikan_, probably. (*paikka*, place)
2b. _Tämä on minun tilaani / aluettani!_ probably. (*tila*, *alue*, area)
3a. _Hän teki sen minun sijastani._ (*sija*, somewhat rare word, usually 'place where sb is lying/sitting/standing'; _viimeinen leposija_ - resting place, ie. grave)
3b. _Minä sen sijaan olen jo vanha. _I, instead, am already old. (lit. to its place)
3c. NOTE: _Ehdotan jotakuta toista tilalleni. _I suggest that someone else should replace me. (lit. [on]to my space)

To sum it up: _tila _is usually used for _space_ (ie. room) and _avaruus_ for _space_ (ie. the astronomic concept). The latter word has been derived from the adjective _avara_, which means '1. wide(-open), expansive, immense, 2. spacious, large, ample'. Literally it means 'expansiveness/wide-openness'.

Ex
(NB countable use) _Kaupunki tarjoaa nuorisotiloja vapaa-ajanviettoon. _The city offers youngsters spaces to spend their spare time in.
(NB incountable use) _Tulkaa sisään! Tilaa ei ole paljon, mutta emmeköhän me tänne mahdu!_ Come in! There's not much space, but I think we'll fit in here!
_Saimaan tilavuus on 36 km³. _The volume of Lake Saimaa is 36 km³. (cf. _avara ~ avaruus_)
_maatila / ratsutila_ - farm / historically rusthåll but nowadays: _a farmplace where you can ride horses_

(NB saying) _Matkailu avartaa! _Travelling broadens your horizons!


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## ThomasK

Perfect information again. In my dictionary I find some words are derived from _sija_, but I won't tell you which ;-). But I don't see a 'room' word in the first example. Or ... ?


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## sakvaka

'Room', as in _I need some more room/space to do this exercise_. Tarvitsen hieman enemmän tilaa tämän harjoituksen tekemiseen. I don't think the word suits my first example well but the idea is the same. The current amount of space is too limited.


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## catlady60

sakvaka said:


> 'Room', as in _I need some more room/space to do this exercise_. Tarvitsen hieman enemmän tilaa tämän harjoituksen tekemiseen. I don't think the word suits my first example well but the idea is the same. The current amount of space is too limited.


 In English, "room" and "space" are synonyms. 
Let me provide a humorous example: _There's a limited amount of space in a room, but there's a vast amount more room in space._


ThomasK said:


> __
> @catlady: the word *'room' *reminds me of 'ruimte', but indeed in some cases one can use both. And your *'stead' *will be based on the same root as German 'Stätte' and our Dutch 'stee/ stad'.


Since English is a Germanic language, it makes sense to me that the English word "stead" and the Dutch word "stee/stad" would have the same root as the German "Stätte."


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## ThomasK

I love that example, Sra Catlady. 

As for Finnish: I was referring to this example: 



> (NB countable use) _Kaupunki tarjoaa nuorisotiloja vapaa-ajanviettoon. _The city offers youngsters spaces to spend their spare time in.



But in the meantime I realised that there is a _tila _root in 'tiloja', but in translating that as 'voorzieningen', something like 'infrastructure', 'provisions' Google T had obscured that. I suppose that is a figurative use of tila, meaning something like 'space offering chances/ opportunities. When I try the inverse translation, I get _varustaminen_, something like equipment, I guess. And Google T refers to a _rentoutumismahdollisuuksia_ (possibilities for relaxation, I guess).


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> I ove that example, Sra Catlady.
> 
> As for Finnish: I was referring to this example:
> 
> 
> 
> But in the meantime I realised that there is a _tila _root in 'tiloja', but in translating that as 'voorzieningen', something like 'infrastructure', 'provisions' Google T had obscured that. I suppose that is a  figurative use of tila, meaning something like 'space offering chances/ opportunities. When I try the inverse translation, I get _varustaminen_, something like equipment, I guess. And Google T refers to a _rentoutumismahdollisuuksia_ (possibilities for relaxation, I guess).



_Tila_ means here something like 'place, usually a building or a room that enables you to do sth special'. In fact, _facilities_ could be a good translation. _Kokoustilat_, conference facilities, _nuorisotilat_, young people's facilities, _harjoitustilat_, practicing facilities. The word is usually used _pluralia tantum_.


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## ThomasK

Well, that is a use of tila that we know as well (room as well as a room, very concrete). I had hoped for something more exotic. We can use 'ruimte voor sport'  in all kinds of ways: not just concrete, but also subventions, etc. That is why... Thanks again !


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## AutumnOwl

ThomasK said:


> @AutumnOwl: can you use utrymme with and without a determiner?
> 
> S _utrymme in … (???)_


_Det finns utrymme i väskan för dina saker_ = there is room for your things in the bag
_På vinden finns ett utrymme som måste tätas så regnet inte kommer in_ = there is a (specific) space/area in the attic that must be sealed/caulked so that the rain doesn't get in (or: _Det finns ett utrymme på vinden ..._)
_Det finns fortfarande några tomma utrymmen i huset_ = there are still a couple of empty spaces in the building

You can use both _utrymme i något/space in something_ (nr 1) or _utrymme någonstans/space somewhere _(nr 2 and 3)


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## ThomasK

So, yes, it is very much like Dutch/ German/ English, it seems to me.


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## sakvaka

AutumnOwl said:


> _Det finns fortfarande några tomma utrymmen i huset_ = there are still a couple of empty spaces in the building



Onko siis mahdollista kääntää ruotsiksi suoraan suomen sanonnat "firman uudet tilat" ja "taloyhtiön yhteiset tilat"? 

Är det alltså möjligt att översätta de ovannämnda fraserna som "firmans nya utrymmen" (_lokaler_ passar väl bättre in i sammanhanget, tror jag) och "bostadsaktiebolagets gemensamma utrymmen" eller behöver jag andra ord? Och gällande "nuorisotilat", skulle det bästa alternativet vara _ungdomsutrymmen _då? 

(_Tack på förhand!_)


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## bibax

Czech (like in S-C):

1. *prostor* = space, room; *vesmír* (ves + mír) = universe;

2. *místo* = place; (_město_ = city; _místnost_ = a room in the house);

3. *místo* tebe (gen.) = instead of you, au lieu de, anstatt;
(_na tvém místě_ = à ta place, an deiner Stelle);

místokrál = viceroy;
místodržící = vicegerent;
místopředseda = deputy/vice chairman;
...


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## ilhermeneuta

Spanish:

1a. I want more ... to live. *Espacio*
1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) *El espacio (with the article added)*
2a. I want a ... to sit. (E place) *Lugar*
2b. This is my ... ! (E place) *Lugar*
3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) *Lugar
*
Waiting for a native to correct me if I've made a mistake,

Italian:

1a. I want more ... to live. *Spazio*
1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) *Lo spazio*
2a. I want a ... to sit. (E place) *Posto*
2b. This is my ... ! (E place) *Posto*
3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) *Posto
*
Both *spazio *and *espacio *​would also be used to describe time.


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## AutumnOwl

sakvaka said:


> Onko siis mahdollista kääntää ruotsiksi suoraan suomen sanonnat "firman uudet tilat" ja "taloyhtiön yhteiset tilat"?
> 
> Är det alltså möjligt att översätta de ovannämnda fraserna som "firmans nya utrymmen" (_lokaler_ passar väl bättre in i sammanhanget, tror jag) och "bostadsaktiebolagets gemensamma utrymmen" eller behöver jag andra ord? Och gällande "nuorisotilat", skulle det bästa alternativet vara _ungdomsutrymmen _då?


När det gäller "firmans nya utrymmen" är det vanligare att använda sig av "firmans nya lokaler", medan man brukar säga "bostadsrättsföreningens gemensamma utrymmen" då det brukar handla om olika typer av utrymmen (tvättstuga, samlingslokal, trappor m m).  

När det gäller_ Det finns fortfarande några tomma utrymmen i huset_ tänkte jag ungefär _Det finns fortfarande några tomma lokaler där utrymmet kan användas allt efter behov (kontor, café, butik), _och där jag skulle använda mig av _tila_ på finska både när det gäller _lokal_ och _utrymme_.

När det gäller "nuorisotilat", är både ungdomsutrymmen och ungdomslokaler ovanliga på svenska, jag skulle antingen säga ett _ställe för ungdomar_ eller en _ungdomsgård_.


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## DearPrudence

*French*is pretty boring. It's like Spanish here.


ilhermeneuta said:


> Spanish:
> 
> 1a. I want more ... to live. *Espacio*
> 1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) *El espacio (with the article added)*
> 2a. I want a ... to sit. (E place) *Lugar*
> 2b. This is my ... ! (E place) *Lugar*
> 3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) *Lugar*


1a. I want more ... to live. *espace*_ (je veux plus d'espace)_
1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) *l'espace* _(dans l'espace)_
2a. I want a ... to sit. (E place) *une place *_(je veux une place / garde-moi une place,...)_
2b. This is my ... ! (E place) *ma place* _(c'est ma place !) _
3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) *place *_(il l'a fait à ma place)_


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## bibax

So it is no difference between _au lieu de_ and _à la place de_?


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## DearPrudence

bibax said:


> So it is no difference between _au lieu de_ and _à la place de_?


Nice catch!

instead of somebody:* à la place de quelqu'un*
instead of + (doing) sth ... :* au lieu de (faire) quelque chose*


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## ThomasK

Just one additional addition, Ms Prudence ;-)... How do you translate 'that requires more space'? *'Plus de place' *and *'plus d'espace' *?


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## DearPrudence

ThomasK said:


> Just one additional addition, Ms Prudence ;-)... How do you translate 'that requires more space'? *'Plus de place' *and *'plus d'espace' *?


Good question. Both can be said I would say:

*J'ai besoin de plus place*: all contexts: your office is too small, your flat is too small, your desk is too small, not enough space on your hard drive/computer, on a whiteboard, piece of paper,...
*J'ai besoin de plus d'espace*: more personal space, indoors but also more referring to outdoors.

*espace* is more like a sphere
→ je n'aime pas les *espaces clos*: I don't like enclosed spaces
→ je n'aime pas les places closes

→ Le chat / L'enfant aura *son propre espace*: The cat / the child will have his own (personal) space
→ Le chat / L'enfant aura sa propre place

*place*, also means "location", which "espace" doesn't.
*Chaque chose à / a sa place*: each thing has its own place / location
Chaque chose à / a son espace: each thing has its own place

Figurative use:
Il faut savoir *rester à sa place*: you must know your place (where you belong...)
Il faut savoir rester à son espace

(also, "une place" is a "(main) square")

I hope I'm not too wrong & covering everything


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## ThomasK

Can't a cat have 'son propre place'? Apparently not, but I am astonished: it is its own 'location' - or is a cat not thing-ish enough? 

Doesn't your translation of my sentence suggest that there is some link between _place _and _espace _in French? (Something like: in some contexts _place _is not that specific as 'location', but implies space in English).


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## DearPrudence

ThomasK said:


> Can't a cat have 'son propre place'? Apparently not, but I am astonished: it is its own 'location' - or is a cat not thing-ish enough?


Literally speaking, if you mean her basket, food,... then it will be "*son espace*".
Otherwise, figuratively speaking, you can say:
_"Notre chat a une place importante (dans notre vie / pour nous)"_ ~ our cat is important to us

Literally speaking, a child might have "une place", yes, but that would be his designated seat.
_"Notre fils a sa place à table, dos à la télé"
_
(other example, at a restaurant, cinema,...
_"Je vais aux toilettes : tu me *gardes une place* un espace ?" _(I'm going to the toilet: can you save me a seat?))



ThomasK said:


> Doesn't your translation of my sentence suggest that there is some link between _place _and _espace _in French?


Yes, I suppose there is some link between "*place*" et "*espace*" and some subsenses of "place" overlap some of "espace". But I think I've reached my limits here


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## ThomasK

Don't worry. Take a rest, you did a great job. It is very interesting for me to be able to explore those different aspects of related terms!


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## ThomasK

ThomasK said:


> Interesting observation. I think all those terms (or almost all) are now rendered using 'plaats' (_hij nam _[took]_ mijn plaats in, hij deed het in mijn plaats_). _Plaats _seems to be very general indeed. (All those _stel_-words in Dutch (_stellen, een stel,..._) are no longer productive)


Over 3 years later I thought of 'in stede', but that is very old...


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## Dymn

ilhermeneuta said:


> 1a. I want more ... to live. *Espacio*
> 1b. Satellites out in ... (id.) *El espacio (with the article added)*
> 2a. I want a ... to sit. (E place) *Lugar*
> 2b. This is my ... ! (E place) *Lugar*
> 3. He did it in ... of me. (instead of) *Lugar
> *
> Waiting for a native to correct me if I've made a mistake,


I don't know in Mexico but in Spain in 2. it's more common to say _sitio_. _Sitio _and _lugar _are usually interchangeable but when we refer to places occupied by a person, when sitting for example, it's usually _sitio_. _Puesto _also has a similar meaning. Then there's _hueco _"gap", "hollow" when used as an adjective, when there are no seats, for example in the ground, you can ask somebody if you want to sit down: _hazme un hueco._

In 3. you can say both _en lugar de _or _en vez de_.


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## ThomasK

Some extra questions if I may:
1b. Is there a Spanish name for *'astro(kosmo, taeko)-naut'*?
2. How come you say: "hasta lugar" But I realize it should be "*hasta luego*". NO link, I suppose...
3. But then "*vez*" is also "time": "ultima vez", the last turn, but I gather it means: "the last place (is for you/ that person)"...

But then "sitio" has quite a broad meaning, bridging 1(b) and 2, doesn't it? It reminds me of Dutch: "*ruimte*" (like "room") can mean 'the space', but also 'a place for a class, a conference, ...', like the English "room", though one could say that is fairly modern (I guess some fity years old, ...).


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## Dymn

ThomasK said:


> 1b. Is there a Spanish name for *'astro(kosmo, taeko)-naut'*?
> 2. How come you say: "hasta lugar" But I realize it should be "*hasta luego*". NO link, I suppose...
> 3. But then "*vez*" is also "time": "ultima vez", the last turn, but I gather it means: "the last place (is for you/ that person)"...


1b. _Astronauta_, like in English, a Greek cultism. For "space", there's also _cosmos, _I think it exists in English as well.
2. Yes, _luego _means "later", but there is indeed a link, although not transparent to modern speakers. _Luego _apparently comes from Latin _locō _(ablative of _locus_, "from the place" which meant "instead of" according to Wiktionary). Anyway if we compare it to Catalan, French cognates, the relationship is clear.
3. Probably instead of a spatial metaphor, it's a temporal metaphor. By the way in *Catalan *along with _en lloc de _"in place of" we also say _en comptes de _"in counts of", probably linking counting with including somebody or something.
4. No, _sitio _is only for 2., not 1 or 1b.


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot. But why do you call X/lugar a temporal metaphor? I don't see your point here... Yes, _my turn_ is temporal. Is that what you mean?


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## Dymn

_En lugar de, instead of_ are spatial metaphors, _en vez de _is a temporal metaphor.


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## ThomasK

Quite so. I had just wondered about what you meant by: "Probably instead of a spatial metaphor, it's a temporal metaphor" above...


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## Ífaradà

Norwegian:


1a. I want more ... to live. [*Plass*]
1b. Satellites out in ... [*Rommet*]
2a. I want a ... to sit.  [*Sted]*
2b. This is my ... ! [*Plass]*
3. He did it in ... of me. [I*sted*enfor]
​


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## ThomasK

I see. I recognize resemblances with the West Germanic languages: rommet > room/ Raum/ ruim(te), sted > stead/ statt, Stadt, stad, x... But then: _rommet_ only refers to the astronauts' space, nothing else, you mean?


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## Ífaradà

ThomasK said:


> I see. I recognize resemblances with the West Germanic languages: rommet > room/ Raum/ ruim(te), sted > stead/ statt, Stadt, stad, x... But then: _rommet_ only refers to the astronauts' space, nothing else, you mean?


Interesting observation!

Rommet (definite form of "rom") refers only, in this case, to the astronaut's space indeed. If you want to get really specific, you could also say "verdensrommet" translated to just "space" in English (lit. the space of the world). In general, it can be thought of as a rather abstract form of "plass" very similar to the English "space".

It can also mean "a room", like in bedroom etc. But generally, when used in its definite form either standalone or in a contextual sentence, it refers to the space outside the earth.


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## ThomasK

Well, in the end, I suppose there will be no word for "space" only referring to "verdenrommet" only, probably because the physical meaning "place" has come first: "spatium" in both space and time...


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## franknagy

Hungarian:
Space = tér (geometrical , 3-or more dimensional).
Place = hely.

Details:
Tér = square (in a city, like Heroes' square in Budapest),
Szököz = space between two words.

Mágneses tér, mágneses mező = magnetic field.


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## ThomasK

INteresting addition: the space between words. We have "spatie" for that, whereas "(outer) space" is "ruimte"...

The reference to "*square*" (or "circus") is interesting as well: had not thought of that. With us it can be "*plaats*[e]" (marktplaats, though you might understand that as "place for [of] the market") but that is the old word. More common now is "*plein*", referring to the French "plaine", of Latin "planum", a flat surface. Do you have (a/one) famous square in Budapest?
Did it have a specific function?

_[I had been wondering about the *commons* in England and ... Open space in the centre of a village, common place. But there are different names for that, and I am not so sure the concept exists everywhere...]_


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## franknagy

ThomasK said:


> INteresting addition: the space between words. We have "spatie" for that, whereas "(outer) space" is "ruimte"...
> 
> The reference to "*square*" (or "circus") is interesting as well: had not thought of that. With us it can be "*plaats*[e]" (marktplaats, though you might understand that as "place for [of] the market") but that is the old word. More common now is "*plein*", referring to the French "plaine", of Latin "planum", a flat surface. Do you have (a/one) famous square in Budapest?
> Did it have a specific function?
> 
> _[I had been wondering about the *commons* in England and ... Open space in the centre of a village, common place. But there are different names for that, and I am not so sure the concept exists everywhere...]_


The Heroes square way built for the milenium of Hungary, that is in 1896. I contains a colonnade of sculptures of the most important kings a freedom fighters, a relief under each one, a big standing column with an angel and seven chieftains on horses,  two museum, the memorial o the unknown soldier. 
Heroes' Square
Who are the heroes of Heroes’ Square? | WeLoveBudapest EN


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## ThomasK

*Hősök tere* in Hungarian, is what I find. So a _ter(e)_ again...

I realized there was the word _hely_ only now. I checked and found: Szombathely, which is a name I know somehow, is said to be based on Hungarian _*szombat*_, "Saturday" and *hely*, "place", referring to its status as a market town. So the link with a market is not that uncommon, I should think...


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## franknagy

ThomasK said:


> Hungarian _*szombat*_, "Saturday" and *hely*, "place", referring to its status as a market town.


The map of Hungary is full names formed as river or connty + day of week + "place".
Examples:
Marosvásárhely (now Tirgu Mures in Roumania) 
Kédivásárhely ( Târgu Secuiesc)
Dunszerdahely (Dumavská Stredá in Slovakia)


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## ThomasK

I see, and indeed, I found some more. in the Low Countries (B, NL) you will find a lot of -_gems_ (based on something like 'home' and a person's name), -_zele_ (Brussels used to be called 'Broekzele', a large house or farm in the swamp/ marsh/...), and parts of the landscape (forest, hill, etc.), but I cannot see things like '-place' really...


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