# Icelandic: ítalia



## Alxmrphi

Hey,

I have a question, in the tabel I have that explains weak feminine nouns, I read the rule about when a weak feminine noun gets declined into anything other than the nominitive case, the ending becomes "-u", and thus the umlout rule is used to change any "a" letters in the stem of the noun.

I see other examples where this happens in the same table, but an example is "ítalia", and when declined into the other 3 cases it becomes "ítaliu", and that "a" doesn't change to an umlout, I was wondering if it was an error in the book or that because it's the name of a place it doesn't take this rule, because I read an exception about "danska" the noun for "Danish" that it doesn't take this rule in the masculine singular nominative.

Yet it doesn't explain about this (possible) exception/error.
Can anyone help?


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## LukeyoHallevichs

Hae!

Italia never becomes Itoliu, whether that is because it is an exception or for an actual reason is neither here nor there really, all you need to know is that it never does. However, when talking about the language, Italska, it DOES become itolsku in acc/dat/genitive: eg tala itolsku. (with the umlaut on the o). Usually Icelandic is pretty regular but can be ridiculous, my advice is, if you don't understand it, just go with it until you do find an explanation. There isn't always one, I assure you!

Hope that helps! 

Luke


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## Alxmrphi

Probably the best advice I've read, it will take me ages to actually not try to find one as it drives me insane with its complexities.
But the fact that I was able to pick up on something I thought should have been different, and found an exception shows me that I'm getting better and not just ignoring but sensing something that wasn't right.


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## polyglot_wannabe

Yes. This is a fine advice by Lukeyo - for exceptions in languages in general.


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## TarisWerewolf

I would actually venture to say that the reason ítalia doesn´t change, but ítalska does is because of the I preceding the ending in Ítalia.


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## Alxmrphi

Oh yeah I remember reading something about vowel sounds (not necessarily the same letter) block the u-umlaut rule, I'll try to find it and compare the words, I can't even remember what book I read it in, but yeah it could be, because in ítalska, as it's a weak feminine noun, it would have it's u- addition ending and change a->ö, but in the other one there is an "i" in the middle, this grammar is soooooo complicated


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## TarisWerewolf

Alex, I think I'm reading the same Icelandic book you are (Teach Yourself Icelandic), and the explanation is on page 42. And I was right in what I said before. The U-umlaut rule that changes a to ö when a suffix containing u is added only applies if the a and the u are in adjacent syllables. Another example they give is the adjective *alvarlegur* (serious). it doesn´t get the umlaut because the A in the stem isn´t in the next to last syllable (next to the U). So the I in Ítalia blocks the umlaut when it becomes Ítaliu, but not when ítalsk becomes ítölsku.


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## Alxmrphi

Great minds buy alike
I checked today when I was reading it, I'm just trying to comprehend how anyone can be conscious of this rule when all the other grammar stuff is going on, even when conjugating the verbs and declining the noun I ALWAYS forget to decline the definite article.

I am half reading that book and slowly and steadily working my way through Icelandic. Probably the most confusing book that exists, I hate it, but at times it works!

As for the rule you're talking about, there is also the rule that if there is more than one "a"... then it doesn't get blocked, it just switches the other "a" to a "u", and that "u" triggers the other "a" to turn to an umlaut, I'm not sure if that explanation is in that book or another one, but I still don't properly understand it.

I think the "*e*" blocks that from happening in *alvarlegur* anyway.
Ok I think I need to find this example before I can go to bed tonight.

Ah ok, it's explained a bit different, not with the "u" ending that happens with verbs in.... dative plural I think, but the "historical-u" that doesn't exist, but where you have the umlaut rule where an adjective is feminine nominative singular.

Yeah the example is *gamall*.

Gamall -> make it feminine, take off the last "*-l*", change the "*a*" to an "*ö*"... oh no, there are 2 "*a*"'s, in this case the "*a*" goes to "*u*" (*gamul*) and this new "*u*" triggers the "*a*" in the stem to an umlaut.. *gömul*.

This explanation was more for my brain working it out so I just know I should never forget it (but I will have by tomorrow!)


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## Alxmrphi

I'm revisiting this topic after 4 months... 

I've come across another word, the Icelandic word for potato.... *kartafla*.
I saw an example of it used in its accusative plural form (*kartöflur*)..

And I know we discussed this already about how the u-umlout rule works, but all the explanations I read have something that explains why it doesn't happen for a certain word... but not here.

There is no other vowel in the different syllables that isn't an '_*a*_' (and therefore can't block it)

So really, I would have thought it should be *körtuflur*.
So I am left wondering

1) Is there a rule here that I haven't yet come across (if so could someone please help me with it?)
2) Or is it just an irregularity that I should memorise
3) Or could it be that the book is wrong and I am right (if only! haha)


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## TarisWerewolf

Nope. It works the same. The umlaut rule doesn´t affect EVERY _a_ in the word, just the one in the syllable immediately preceding the ending. So In your case

kartafl-a (nom. singular)

so the stem is kartafl- and the green a is the only one that changes when endings are added.

So... kartafl- (stem)  +  -ur (plural ending) = kartflur

Hope that helps.


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## dinji

I am not convinced that the explanation given by TarisWerewolf sheds more clarity on the problem. The question by Alex_Murphy is still valid in my view and intriguing.

I would say it becomes Kartöflur (pro **Körtuflur) because

1) The second syllable has secondary stress and the word "sounds" like a compound word and thus behaves phonologically as one (the umlaut never jumps over to the first element of a compound word)
2) The word is borrowed from Danish after the sound rule ceased to be completely productive

Explanations 1) and 2) are actually two sides of the same coin. When a word is borrowed it has to be accomodated into some existing paradigm and here it has been interpreted as if it was a compound word and received its stress pattern.


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## Alxmrphi

Hey again,

Taris, if you look in the book we both have at the unit with the shopping list, it does give the word with the umlaut, and on the Icelandic decliner it confirms that there is an umlaut and the word is kartöflur (see here)

Also... 



> The umlaut rule doesn't affect EVERY _a_ in the word*, just the one in the syllable immediately preceding the ending*


 
I was a bit unsure when I read this, but I'm sure I've read differently, I've found something interesting...

source

Right (source)

Note that if there are two _a's_ preceding the _u_, the first _a_ becomes an _ö_ and the second becomes a _u_. An example:
*fagnaður*—_joy_ ⇒ *fögnuðum*—_joys_ (dative, plural). 

Exceptions to this include several borrowings, for instance *banani*—_banana_ ⇒ *banönum* (dative plural) and *Arabi*—_Arab_ ⇒ *Aröbum* (also dative plural).

I knew that if there are 2 'a's then instead of being an umlaut, it turns that into a -u which then forces the other 'a' into the umlaut, I've posted something like this before on here before but I can't find it.
Anyway yeah that is the general rule I think... But as this text points out, for 'borrowed' words (like the *banana* example, it just changes the end part and leaves the beginning) and as that's a food, like potato it could be the same.

Plus


> *2) The word is borrowed from Danish after the sound rule ceased to be completely productive*


 
We were lucky to find out from dinji that it is a borrowed word, and that is exactly where the first source said that exceptions occur.

So I am really happy and confident this is the case!
Thanks for both your co-operation, it's not usually this quickly an Icelandic question gets resolved!


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