# Norwegian: Second/third from the top/bottom



## sjiraff

Hi everyone, 
I just realised today that I don't think I know how to properly say in Norwegian

"Second from the top/bottom" and such, like if you're buying something and you say "ken jeg få det øverste" or "det på øverste hylle", but how would you say things like "third down" or "the fourth one up" and such?

Thanks for any help!


----------



## bicontinental

Hi,

It looks like you’re still waiting for an answer...

For the top shelf I’d say, _på øverste hylle_, as you said.

Second from the top: here you can use the adjective/prefix _nest-_

_På nestøverste hylle_

http://www.nobordbok.uio.no/perl/or...=5&ant_nynorsk=5&begge=+&ordbok=begge&ava=ava



> brukt som bestemmelse til en superlativ for å angi plassen etter denne i rekken:
> _bli n- best til eksamen_ / _hoppe n- høyest_ / _n- siste runde_






After that I would say _den tredje_ _øverste_ or paraphrase it  (_den xxx fra oven)_

(The examples here are from Google.no, but you may want to have natives confirm this part )

_*...den tredje øverste *_divisjonen i engelsk fotball.  Wigan må finne seg i å spille _*på tredje øverste nivå *_i engelsk fotball

or

på _*den tredje hyllen fra oven*_


Bic.


----------



## sjiraff

Thanks very much bicontinental, very informative post! So I assume the same goes for bottom, and I can say "jeg vil ha det/den fra tredje nederste hylle"?

Cheers


----------



## raumar

Bic's answer is nearly correct - but "_nestøverste_" and "_fra oven_" are Danish. The Norwegian expressions are "_nest øverste_" and "_ovenfra_".

As Bic explained, you can express this in two ways in the Scandinavian languages.

1) _Øverste hylle, nest øverste hylle, tredje øverste hylle_ and so on, and _nederste hylle, nest nederste hylle, tredje nederste hylle_, and so on.

2) When the numbers become higher, these expressions may be awkward. Instead we use _ovenfra_ and _nedenfra_. If you read proofs, for example, it is better to refer to a correction in _femtende linje nedenfra_ than _femtende nederste linje_. (Usually, you wouldn't say _femtende linje ovenfra_, just_ femtende linje)_.



sjiraff said:


> So I assume the same goes for bottom, and I can say "jeg vil ha det/den fra tredje nederste hylle"?



Yes - except that we usually use the preposition "_på_".


----------



## sjiraff

Ah, thanks Raumar, I actually began to think maybe "oven" was just from a dialect somewhere or something when I read it first haha. 



raumar said:


> it is better to refer to a correction in _femtende linje nedenfra_ than _femtende nederste linje_. (Usually, you wouldn't say _femtende linje ovenfra_, just_ femtende linje)_.



This is good to know, infact I'm almost a bit annoyed I never realised that myself, words like "nedenfra" and "bakfra" etc are useful words in Norwegian. 

Thanks a lot for the explainations chaps!


----------



## raumar

sjiraff said:


> Ah, thanks Raumar, I actually began to think maybe "oven" was just from a dialect somewhere or something when I read it first haha.



Actually, both expressions -- "_fra oven_" and "_ovenfra_" exist in Norwegian, and both mean "from above". But in everyday contexts, such as your example, we only use "ovenfra". "Fra oven" is only used in solemn or spiritual contexts, as in this example: 
http://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/--Malala-er-en-engel_-en-gave-fra-oven-7822007.html

Here, "_Malala er en gave fra oven_" means "Malala is a gift from above" (i.e. a gift from Heaven).


----------



## sjiraff

raumar said:


> Actually, both expressions -- "_fra oven_" and "_ovenfra_" exist in Norwegian, and both mean "from above". But in everyday contexts, such as your example, we only use "ovenfra". "Fra oven" is only used in solemn or spiritual contexts, as in this example:
> http://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/--Malala-er-en-engel_-en-gave-fra-oven-7822007.html
> 
> Here, "_Malala er en gave fra oven_" means "Malala is a gift from above" (i.e. a gift from Heaven).



Interesting, I've noticed a lot of words can get broken down in Norwegian, like "å tilrettelegge for" becoming "legge til rette for" etc. Good to know though, because clearly as your example shows some are only in certain contexts.


----------



## Ben Jamin

sjiraff said:


> Interesting, I've noticed a lot of words can get broken down in Norwegian, like "å tilrettelegge for" becoming "legge til rette for" etc. Good to know though, because clearly as your example shows some are only in certain contexts.


Maybe they are not "broken down" as you suggest, but rather "set together". I believe that the separate spelling with a different order of the words is older than the synthetic one.
I.e: å legge til rette > å tilrettelegge


----------



## sjiraff

Ben Jamin said:


> Maybe they are not "broken down" as you suggest, but rather "set together". I believe that the separate spelling with a different order of the words is older than the synthetic one.
> I.e: å legge til rette > å tilrettelegge


Ah yeah of course, but I think sometimes they can even have different meanings even if they're the same like "å slå fast" is to "state" and "å fastslå" is "to ascertain" right?


----------



## raumar

sjiraff said:


> Ah yeah of course, but I think sometimes they can even have different meanings even if they're the same like "å slå fast" is to "state" and "å fastslå" is "to ascertain" right?



You are right in general, but this example is not the best: both "fastslå" and "slå fast" can mean both "state" and "ascertain" (that depends on whether the word is followed by "at" or "om"). 

Such pairs can be tricky. In some cases the two expressions have the same meaning, in some cases the meanings are different. The "split" word often has a more concrete or literal meaning, and the "merged" is abstract or figurative. For example, "slått ned" (knocked down) and "nedslått" (disheartened), or "gå forbi" (walk past) and "forbigå" (pass over). Sometimes these words have completely different meanings, even almost opposite, for example "gå i møte" (walk towards) and "imøtegå" (oppose, refute).


----------



## sjiraff

raumar said:


> You are right in general, but this example is not the best: both "fastslå" and "slå fast" can mean both "state" and "ascertain" (that depends on whether the word is followed by "at" or "om").
> 
> Such pairs can be tricky. In some cases the two expressions have the same meaning, in some cases the meanings are different. The "split" word often has a more concrete or literal meaning, and the "merged" is abstract or figurative. For example, "slått ned" (knocked down) and "nedslått" (disheartened), or "gå forbi" (walk past) and "forbigå" (pass over). Sometimes these words have completely different meanings, even almost opposite, for example "gå i møte" (walk towards) and "imøtegå" (oppose, refute).



Interesting, but it's good to know these things, I've never heard of "gå i møte" I probably would have said "gå mot" but maybe that's not the best way of saying it.

Thanks Raumar!


----------



## raumar

Don't worry about that - 'gå mot' is the best option in most contexts.


----------



## sjiraff

raumar said:


> both "fastslå" and "slå fast" can mean both "state" and "ascertain" (that depends on whether the word is followed by "at" or "om").



I just noticed something about this, but can't both of them be followed by "at"? Like if you "ascertain THAT..." or you "state THAT..." saying fastslå at... would be used for both?

I've never seen "om" after slå fast / fastslå, when is it right to use it?


----------



## raumar

You are absolutely right, sjiraff, I did not think this though. 'Fastslå at' is 'ascertain/state that', 'fastslå om' is 'ascertain whether'.


----------



## sjiraff

raumar said:


> You are absolutely right, sjiraff, I did not think this though. 'Fastslå at' is 'ascertain/state that', 'fastslå om' is 'ascertain whether'.



Ah yes of course "om" would mean "whether", sometimes you don't realise things until you actually hear them in a context and you understand it without thinking.

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## bicontinental

Thanks Raumar...very interesting...in Danish _ovenfra_ and _fra oven_ can be used interchangeably.
Bic.


----------

