# Kitab-ı Bahriye / Bahriyye



## shawnee

I was reading in Hurryet Daily about the Piri Reis map of 1513 and I'm guessing that _Kitabi -i Bahriye_ means atlas. Is that correct?


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## sound shift

In Giancarlo Casale's "The Ottoman Age of Exploration", it's referred to as the "Book of the Sea". This is a literal translation, since "kitab" is Turkish for "book" (it's a loan from Arabic) and "bahr" is Arabic for "sea".


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## shawnee

Thanks sound shift. I would have got it had been _kitabı deniz_. So does that mean it is Ottoman, and or obsolete in modern Turkish?


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## sound shift

Well, as you say, shawnee, the modern word for "sea" is "deniz". "Bahr" is preserved in a few place names in Turkey, but I notice that "bahr" (or a turkicized variant) is not one of the three translations of "sea" offered by my Langenscheidt Turkish dictionary (but it must be said that it is only a pocket edition). _Kitabi -i Bahriye _is Ottoman. Nowadays the word order is different too: _Deniz Kitabı_, rather than _Kitabı Deniz_. I believe the _-i_ in _Kitabi_ _-i Bahriye_ is based on Arabic or Persian usage, but I am not sure which of the two.


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## shafaq

Kitab-ı Bahriyye means "the book of seamanship/navigation".  Yes "bahr" is "sea"; and "bahriyye" literally means "all about the sea"; as a term it means "seamanship/navigation/navy". If you tend to translate it into todays Turkish; it is "Denizcilik Kitabı" or "Denizcinin (El) Kitabı".


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## sound shift

shafaq said:


> If you tend to translate it into todays Turkish; it is "Denizcilik Kitabı" or "Denizcinin (El) Kitabı".


Is this "El" the Arabic definite article? In modern Turkish, you wouldn't speak this "El", would you?


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## Rallino

sound shift said:


> Is this "El" the Arabic definite article? In modern Turkish, you wouldn't speak this "El", would you?



*El*, in Turkish, is 'hand'. 

So, *El kitabı* is a hand book or a small guide.


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## sound shift

Ah, I see. Thanks. But what is the -_ı _in _Kitab -ı Bahriyye_? Is it a turkicized form of the Arabic definite article? Why is it written _Kitab -ı Bahriyye _and not_ Kitabı_ _Bahriyye_?


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## Rallino

No, it's the genitive_ -ı_.
Kitabı*-ı *Bahriyye = Book *of *Sea
Now I might be wrong on this as Ottoman is not my strongest point, but if I recall well, this type of Genitive is a loan from Persian. 
As a side note, in this type of genitives (consonant+i), the _i_ wasn't even shown in spelling: كتاب باحریە  -- (ktab bahrye).


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## sound shift

Thanks, Rallino.


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## fdb

Rallino said:


> No, it's the genitive_ -ı_.



It is not genitive. It is the Persian izaafat construction (headword + particle i + possessive or adjective)



Rallino said:


> Kitabı*-ı *Bahriyye



Kitab*-ı *Bahriyye



Rallino said:


> كتاب باحریە



كتاب بحريه


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## shawnee

Gee you guys make me feel dumb. A least I knew the el - hand, from Rum -eli. Best thing is I'm learning. WR is the best. Just pretend I said thanks in Turkish, Persian and Arabic.


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## Melaike

shawnee said:


> Gee you guys make me feel dumb. A least I knew the *el - hand*, from *Rum -eli*. Best thing is I'm learning. WR is the best. Just pretend I said thanks in Turkish, Persian and Arabic.



Rum-eli means ''Land of Rum(Roman)'' ,  ''El'' means land/country  here.


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## shawnee

Ah! I should know better than to rely on coffee shop etymology. Thanks for clearing that up Melaike.


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## ecdadihifzeylerdi

El ال article is most of the time omitted in Ottoman in izafe constructions, and follows the rules in Farsi but it does exist in some cases such as Darülfünun دار الفنون


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