# cheap / license (approval, permission)



## momai

In Arabic both to cheapen and to license/to approve sth are ترخيص tarkhiS, where cheap is rakhiiS and license is rukhSa. I am wondering whether your language also makes such connection between those distinctive meanings or not.
Thanks.


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## elroy

In German,

_billig_ - cheap
_billigen_ - to approve
_*ver*billigen_ - to cheapen

I never noticed this similarity between Arabic and German!


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## ThomasK

I suppose we could establish a similar link with _billijk/ billijken_ in Dutch, but the link might be fair, which is the meaning of _billijk_ in Dutch: a _*billijke*_ price is a fair price, and if something is fair, we will *billijken* it. No?

_Juste_ and justifier in French? _Just_ and _justify_ in English? If I am right, it might be "fairly universal"…


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## elroy

ThomasK said:


> the link might be fair, which is the meaning of _billijk_ in Dutch: a _*billijke*_ price is a fair price, and if something is fair, we will *billijken* it.


 I don't know; I would lean more towards "acceptable."  A cheap price is usually _acceptable_ (for most buyers), and to approve something is to _accept_ it. 


ThomasK said:


> _Juste_ and justifier in French? _Just_ and _justify_ in English?


 I think these are different.


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## momai

elroy said:


> I don't know; I would lean more towards "acceptable."  A cheap price is usually _acceptable_ (for most buyers), and to approve something is to _accept_ it.
> I think these are different.


I also think this is the logic behind it. Thanks to both of you.


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## ThomasK

As for me both are close, but not the same. J_ust/e (FRA)_ cannot be paraphrased as "acceptable", I think, whereas of course something becomes acceptable if it seems/ is fair/ just. Why do we need a "detour" by "acceptable"?


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## elroy

Thomas, I don't think "just/justify" have anything to do with "billig/billigen."  I think you're off the mark here.


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## berndf

The core meaning of _billig_ is _appropriate_ or _equitable_. The modern meanings of the adjective and the verb are both derived from that. The adjective means that the merchandise _has an appropriate price_, i.e. not too high, and the verb means _to declare something  appropriate_. The original meaning _equitable_ has only survived in legalese (_eine billige  Entschädigung_) and in set phrases (_recht und billig_).

Thomas was not too far off with his surmise.


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## merquiades

I think it is interesting to get to the root of what "cheap" means in every language.  For me "cheap" either means "advantageous to the buyer" or "of bad quality" as things underpriced might be of bad quality.

It's interesting to think that "billig" might not have this meaning, and gives rather the idea of equity or appropriate.
The French "bon marché" kind of sounds like it means discounted in origin.


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## ThomasK

I think there is not one concept. Or at the very least several older words based on fairly differentl kinds of semantic concepts turned into that concept, like "good price/ deal" in French (and in Dutch (_goedkoop_)), or "trade" in the English 'cheap', or "equitabe" in German. Maybe the basic concept was not based on price as such, but on value, or the value/price relation.

( i tried to look for the origin of _dear_ in its ambiguity elsewhere…)


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## Määränpää

The Finnish word _halventaa_ that means "cheapen" is almost never used in the sense of actual price reductions because it is more closely associated with the sense of "disparage". Therefore, a chain of grocery stores coined the neologism _halpuuttaa_ as a publicity stunt in order to refer to price reductions.

No connection between cheapening and approval in Finnish.


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## ThomasK

This is interesting, because the underlying Association seems to be a value judgment whereas the word literally refers to a reduction, I understand. But this is the opposite of what was asked, but it is as real. "Goedkope" (cheap) criticism is way too easy.

_This again seems to indicate that there might not be a single concept, whereas we always suppose there is. But I am not sure. maybe we'd better deal with this at EHL..._


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## jazyk

No connection between _barato_ (cheap), _aprovar_ (approve), and _permitir_ (permit) in Portuguese.


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## ThomasK

But nothing like justificar/e & just? Just trying...


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## jazyk

_Justificar_ means justify, and _justo_ means just or fair.


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## AndrasBP

There's no such connection in Hungarian.

"Cheap" is *olcsó */'olʧo:/, an old Turkic loanword.
"Licence/permission" is *engedély */'ɛngɛde:j/, from the verb _enged _= allow, let.


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## momai

After checking the dictionary I found out that the core meaning of the root r-kh-S is to be soft or fine.


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## ThomasK

Indeed, but I thought one could perhaps establish a semantic link with the topic in #1, as I suggested in connection with German and Dutch... I think the clue is not "cheap" but "fair/ accpetable" and then justifying things…

_(Just mentioning: there is a link for example between permission and holiday, whereas that seems strange, but the link is that permission was needed to get days/… off, as you can see __here__. So Sometimes is a iogic, and fairly widespread, but the concept link may be "hidden".)_


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## momai

ThomasK said:


> _(Just mentioning: there is a link for example between permission and holiday, whereas that seems strange, but the link is that permission was needed to get days/… off, as you can see __here__. So Sometimes is a iogic, and fairly widespread, but the concept link may be "hidden".)_


Arabic also has this connection between permission and holiday
'jaaza أجاز to permit
'ijaazah اجازة not only means permission/holiday ,but can also means license


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## ThomasK

Thanks for the hint, we had that word already. However, if you thnk of something like : "That is quite OK/fair/decent/…, I can approve of that", could you find an adjective and a verb based on the same stem?


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## igusarov

Russian:
typically we would use unrelated words for "cheap" and "permission". But if you really strive to find a word which could mean both, then the most close you get is:
"*доступный*" = "*accessible*", that being its primary literal meaning.
It can be used figuratively to mean "affordable", which is more or less equivalent to "cheap".


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## ThomasK

I don't really want it, but I only think there is an underlying semantic link between the terms, and that's why I try to explore a larger semantic field than just "cheap". This word might be a link, but what is your word for approving then? Thanks!


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## igusarov

Then there's no such semantic link in Russian, I'm afraid.
"cheap" is "дешёвый".
"permission/approval" could be "раз*реш*ение" (root: solution), "по*звол*ение" (etymological root: will), "о*добр*ение" (root: good).

Edit:


ThomasK said:


> However, if you thnk of something like : "That is quite OK/fair/decent/…, I can approve of that", could you find an adjective and a verb based on the same stem?


Yes. This one is pretty straightforward.
"добро" = "the good", noun.
"добрый" = "good", adjective.
"одобрять" = "to approve", verb.
"Добро!" = "It's ok." Though, this form is rarely used.
"Я одобряю это" = literally "I'm a-good-ing that", which means "I approve that".
"Я даю добро" = literally "I'm giving my good", which also means "I approve".

However, "добро" never means "cheap" so it doesn't match the original question.


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## ThomasK

Thanks. In fact, it reminds me of _*approve*_ itself. The latter is based on _*approbare*_, is derived from _*probus*_: "_probare_ "to make good; esteem, represent as good; make credible, show, demonstrate; test, inspect; judge by trial" (source also of Spanish _probar_, Italian _probare_), from _probus_ "worthy, good, upright, virtuous".

I pointed out before that the German "billig" originally had to do with "fair" and was joined by Berndf, stating in #8 that I was not too far off the mark. So it seems to be correct that the best track for investigation of parallels is not based on "cheap" but on "fair". Now, could /dobro/ have some kind of ethical connotation, like 'kind', 'good)hearted', maybe like _probus_?


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## apmoy70

Greek:

To cheapen:
(A) *«Ευτελίζω»* [efteˈlizo] --> _to cheapen, debase, degrade_ < Classical Gr. v. *«εὐτελίζω» eu̯tĕlízō* --> _to disparage, make disreputable_ < Classical Gr. prefix *«εὐ- eu̯-* + Classical neut. noun *«τέλος» télŏs*.

(B) *«Φθηναίνω»* [fθiˈneno] & *«φτηναίνω»* [ftiˈneno] aphetism of Byz. Gr. v. *«εὐθηνῶ» eu̯thēnô* (idem) < Classical v. *«εὐθενέω/εὐθενῶ» eu̯tʰĕnéō* (uncontracted)/*eu̯thĕnô* (contracted) --> init. _to thrive, flourish_, later (Koine) _to cheapen, make abundant, make something of poor quality_ (of obscure and inexplicable etymology).

(A) is Katharevousa & learned, (B) is Demotic and vernacular.
Both have negative connotation.

Cheap (adj.): *«Φθηνός/φτηνός, -νή, -νό»* [fθiˈnos] & [ftiˈnos] (masc.), [fθiˈni] & [ftiˈni] (fem.), [fθiˈno] & [ftiˈno] (neut.); the word just means cheap, depending on context though, it may have negative connotation; aphetism of rare & late Classical adj. *«εὐθενής, -νής, -νές» eu̯tʰĕnḗs* (masc. & fem.), *eu̯tʰĕnés* (neut.) --> _strong, thriving_. 

To approve: *«Εγκρίνω»* [eŋˈgrino] < Classical v. *«ἐγκρίνω» ĕŋgrínō* < Classical prefix & preposition *«ἐν» ĕn* + Classical v. *«κρίνω» krī́nō*.

Approval (noun): *«Έγκριση»* [ˈeŋgrisi] (fem.), Katharevousa *«ἔγκρισις»* [ˈeŋgrisis] (fem.) < Classical 3rd declension fem. noun *«ἔγκρισις» éŋgrisis* (nom. sing.), *«ἐγκρίσεως» ĕŋgrísĕōs* (gen. sing.) --> _approval, recommendation, admission_.

License: *«Άδεια»* [ˈaði.a] (fem.) --> _license, permission_ < Classical fem. noun *«ἄδειᾱ» ắdei̯ā* --> _freedom from fear, safe conduct, amnesty, indemnity, license_ < privative prefix *«ἀ-» ă-* (PIE *a(n)- < *n̥- _privative prefix_) + deverbative neuter noun *«δέος» déŏs* --> _fear_ < Classical v. *«δείδω» deí̯dō* --> _to fear_ (PIE *due̯i- _to fear_ cf Skt. द्वेष्टि (dveṣṭi), _to hate_, Av. duuaēϑa, _threat_, possibly Lat. dīrus, _fearful_).

So, no apparent connection between them.


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## ThomasK

§Indeed, and I am not surprised, as I still suppose the essential link is between 'fair' and 'justify', as German shows. Could you find links between (synonyms, near-synonyms of) 'fair' and of 'justify' in Greek. You need not list them, but just check whether there is some etymological link between an adj. and a verb.

Just BTW: regarding the link between 'to fear' and 'license' might be an interesting topic. Could it not be something like 'respect (awe, …)' that leads to licences? If it were, that could be a new topic...

And to conclude: in Swedish (and in two North Germanic languages) there is a link between the two (or three) words: _rättvis, rättvisa (justice), rättfärdiga..._


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> §Indeed, and I am not surprised, as I still suppose the essential link is between 'fair' and 'justify', as German shows. Could you find links between (synonyms, near-synonyms of) 'fair' and of 'justify' in Greek. You need not list them, but just check whether there is some etymological link between an adj. and a verb.


Yes, there definitely is:
Fair: *«Δίκαιος, -η/-αία, -ο» *[ˈðice.os] (masc.), [ˈðice.i] (fem.), learned [ðiˈce.a] (fem.), [ˈðice.o] (neut.), from *«δίκη» díkē*.
To justify: *«Δικαιώνω»* [ðiceˈono], obviously from «δίκη».


ThomasK said:


> Just BTW: regarding the link between 'to fear' and 'license' might be an interesting topic. Could it not be something like 'respect (awe, …)' that leads to licences? If it were, that could be a new topic...


It's literally private prefix «ἀ-» + fear, the thinking is that one is permitted to to something (i.e drive, or build a house, for both of which a license is needed) or be absent, as from work or military duty (for both of which a permit is expected), without the fear of consequences.


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot, Apmoy. I think there is some resemblance then between your words and the German words in the "fair" sense...

A-deia: I am quite surprised that that is the background. We generally refer to fear in a negative sense, like in _de-terring_, _af-schrikken_, Fr. _effrayer_… We can "ease up" people (geruststellen - recognize 'rest'?), but not de-fear them, as far as I can see… But I have started a new thread about allowing, permitting, etc.


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