# 説明不足の点を言われたんだと



## Soaringxg32

Does the construction を言われたんだと mean that 'we told you something' or 'you said something'?

xxxxx: YouTube link deleted

Eri Tokunaga:

今、自分の発言の真意、あるいは説明不足の点を言われたんだと思いますけれども、大臣、もしそうだとしたら、なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。

御自分の説明をしているんですから、御自分の言葉で答えていただきたいと思いますが、いかがでしょうか。

Here is a shoddy translation I received from a forum member on another site:
Eri: _I think you are now inquired upon your real intent on the comment, or criticized upon your lack of explanation, but Minister, given the such situation, why are you still have to make a statement looking at that paper? You are explaining things about yourself. I'd like to hear it from your own words. How about that?_

I think it might mean:
Eri: _I think you've explained what you really meant, or rather, explained any misunderstandings, but Minister, if that is the case, why do you have to look at that paper to speak? If you are explaining in your own words, I would like you to answer in your own words. How about it?_


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

今、自分の発言の真意、あるいは説明不足の点を言われたんだと思いますけれども、大臣、もしそうだとしたら、なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。

First of all, the red part was not said by her in the video. Was it deleted from the video?
Second, the red part doesn't make sense to me. I think the red part is logically wrong to be there.
Therefore, I can't decide which would be the better translation, yours or the forum member's.

The actual conversation in that video was:
女性議員）「東北道は健全に動いていましたか？」
大臣）　「健全に動いていたとの発言は事実と異なるためおわびのうえ撤回させていただきます。」
女性議員）「大臣！、もしそうだとしたら、なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。」


----------



## Soaringxg32

Thanks for taking the time to selflessly reply to my headache-inducing post!
I dug around and found the meeting minutes of this parliament session.
国会会議録検索システム

女性議員）「東北道は健全に動いていましたか？」 152　徳永エリ
大臣）　「健全に動いていたとの発言は事実と異なるためおわびのうえ撤回させていただきます。」 153　櫻田義孝
女性議員）「大臣！、もしそうだとしたら、なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。」154　徳永エリ

154　徳永エリ​○徳永エリ君　櫻田大臣は、御地元で行われた集会の中で、東日本大震災がありましたけれど、まだ国道とか交通、高速道路もですね、東北自動車道も健全に動いていたからよかったですが、しかし、もし首都直下型地震が起きたら人の移動や車の移動、物資の移動も妨げられると思いますと発言しているんですね。 　今、自分の発言の真意、あるいは説明不足の点を言われたんだと思いますけれども、大臣、もしそうだとしたら、なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。御自分の説明をしているんですから、御自分の言葉で答えていただきたいと思いますが、いかがでしょうか。


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

Okay, when looking at your reference, the sentence makes sense perfectly and you're right.
The subject of 言われたんだ is 桜田大臣. It's so obvious.
It's the polite form of 言ったんだ.
The other forum member just misinterpreted it as the passive voice.

I personally don't agree with the woman's logic.
Or at least, I can understand her logic, but it was very poorly spoken.
Maybe if she had prepared a more well-written inquiry paper in advance, her logic would have been more effective. Yet, in that case, her logic made no sense because she was doing the same thing as the Minister. Anyway, it's absurd. If only language geniuses had become politicians, this silly debate would have not happened from the beginning. He is a poor speaker. So is she.


----------



## Soaringxg32

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Okay, when looking at your reference, the sentence makes sense perfectly and you're right.
> The subject of 言われたんだ is 桜田大臣. It's so obvious.
> It's the polite form of 言ったんだ.
> The other forum member just misinterpreted it as the passive voice.
> 
> I personally cannot agree with the woman's logic.
> Or I can understand her logic, but it was very poorly spoken.
> Maybe if she had prepared a more well-written inquiry paper in advance, her logic would have been more effective. Yet, in that case, her logic made no sense because she was doing the same thing as the Minister.


Really? Well that's a relief to know. I thought my translation attempt was most likely completely wrong, since I am by no means a professional translator, I've never even been paid to do any translation work before. The other forum member is from a website where a whole team of moderators provide their translation help and allows specifically for translation requests, and I thought I had a correct translation firmly in my pocket, but then I received the above gibberish, which made me even more confused, and so I just took it upon myself to translate it for myself. I was almost hoping I was wrong in order to maybe learn something new.


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

Anyway, the lady's Japanese was confusing.
I do not surprised that even a professional translator made a mistake.
However, if it was the passive voice, the next part, もしそうだとしたら,なぜそのペーパーを見て発言しなければいけないのか分かりません。, does not make sense logically.

By the way, you should know that I am by no means a professional translator, either.


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

*を言われたんだと* 
*that it was said to you*
someone is guessing about that

あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that it was said to you* about the point of lack of explanation, but 

it doesn´t mean 
'we told you something' 私達は貴方に言いました 
'you said something'　貴方が言いました


----------



## Soaringxg32

I'm pretty sure your reply (Katzuhiko) is correct.

This is what I received on another site with this same question:
_*"*(The 言われた part is not included in the linked video, so I assume this transcription is correct.)

Your interpretations seems more likely to me. This 言われた is probably an honorific form ("you said"). But the other interpretation (passive of "someone pointed out your 説明不足 to you") is also possible depending on the previous situation. Did someone else point out something to the minister right before his previous statement?*"*_


Thus, would this be a better translation?
Eri: _I think you've been told by us what you really meant, or rather, told what any misunderstandings were, but Minister, if that is the case that we tell you these things in our own words, why do you have to look at that paper to speak? If you are explaining in your own words, we would like you to answer in your own words. How about it?_


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

Ohhh you pointing out a good point about it is the honorific form of "to say".

あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that you said* the points of the lack of explanations, but


----------



## Soaringxg32

This question has turned into one of the most complex questions I have ever asked so far.
I've had to ask on 3 different forum sites in total, and have received mixed replies in each.
What makes this so confusing is the 自分の発言 and the を言われたんだと parts.
I guess this one is just left to the gods to decide.

I think in all likelyhood your first reply to me (Katzuhiko) was accurate. Even this website gives the following:
Learn Japanese Forum - difference between 言った　and 言われた
*"*
The other one
先生がテストの予定を言われた。
If the sentence structure is
Person A (person in higher position) が/は something を/と　言われた, the 言われた is an honorific expression.
My teacher told about a schedule of tests to us. (showing respect to the teacher)_*"*_


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

自分の発言
your own statement

I read all the sentence and its congruency 
it makes me more sense that it is the honorific way as you suggested, 
and not in the meaning that -- he has been told of something -- as in my first suggestion,


----------



## Flaminius

Japan is a parliamentary democracy.  The national assembly, called Diet, has enough _gravitas_ that every member speak in honorific language even when they want to kill each other.  If a verb can either be honorific or passive, the chances are it is the former.

What then would they do to express something in passive?  They use constructions that express both passive and honorification like so:
説明不足の指摘をお受けになったんだと思います。
I think that you received [hon.] criticism that your explanations have been insufficient.

Notice that this と思います as well as in the original sentence can be an honorific device.  A simple declarative like お受けになりました, referring to the acts of the listener, is considered too blunt in Japanese conversations of almost every level.

And finally:
Eri: _I think you've explained what you really meant_

Members of the Diet are better addressed by their family names.  Thus:
Tokunaga: _I think you've explained what you really meant_


----------



## Soaringxg32

@Flaminius Your response is highly appreciated. I am extremely grateful for anyone adding their replies to my posts.
Your level of understanding is much greater than mine. I'm not even sure if what I wrote was correct or somewhat correct or not.
Given what you have just said, can I safely assume then that the translation I _received _is the correct one, and _my_ translation is therefore incorrect?


----------



## Flaminius

@Soaringxg32 You have been right from the very beginning of this thread.


Soaringxg32 said:


> I think you've explained what you really meant, or rather, explained any misunderstandings


The above translation of your is CORRECT.  The passive rendering you received elsewhere is incorrect.  What I explained in #12 is what the Diet member would have said had a passive been intended.


----------



## Soaringxg32

Oh, thanks for the clarification, Flaminius.
I honestly thought that I was not at that level yet to translate highly complex, Japanese congressional meeting speech.
I thought I would need even more years of study to come back to this and maybe take another gamble at it.
I don't know if it has to do with the fact that it is still summer, but I used to get top-quality translations of anything real quick on a forum community translation site whch I will not mention. Maybe all the mods there are on vacation or something.
I don't know if this now qualifies me to translate professionally or not, since this was pretty hard. So hard that even 2 other sites could not help me, and I just had to do this myself.
Thanks to wordreference for clearing this up for me! You guys are the real pro's!


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

As Flaminius said your translation is correct. 
The understanding that *を言われたんだと *is in the honorific way.
あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that you said* the points of the lack of explanations, but

the passive form it was not the case 
あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that it was said to you* about the points of lack of explanations, but  

then Flaminius gave us a good advice
if we want to turn the passive form to the honorific form
あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that it was said to you* about the points of lack of explanations, but
would have been 
説明不足の*指摘をお受けになったんだと*思います
I think *that you received a point out* of the lack of explanation


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

I investigated the different ways of saying the verb "to say"

or I think *that you said* the points of the lack of explanations, but
貴方が言った　-　した
あるいは説明不足の点*をおっしゃったんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を申し上げたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を申したんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を言ったんだと*思いますけれども、

then the passive form will be like follows?
貴方に言われた　-　された
or I think *that it was said to you* about the points of lack of explanations, but
あるいは説明不足の点*をおっしゃられたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を言わられたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を申し上げられたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を申しられたんだと*思いますけれども、
あるいは説明不足の点*を言わられたんだと*思いますけれども、


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

Soaringxg32 said:


> So hard that even 2 other sites could not help me, and I just had to do this myself.
> Thanks to wordreference for clearing this up for me! You guys are the real pro's!


Even when two other sites could not help you, it was definitely not their fault.
It was because of your badly-quoted video which was edited and didn't show the correct context and background. The video was edited to a shorter version. Therefore, they or we weren't able to know if a third person spoke just before the woman spoke the sentences. (And that video was deleted in this language forum because it was against the forum rule, which may bring about another confusion...)
If you had provided them with the complete context " 国会会議録検索システム " which you showed in #3 from the beginning in the other sites, you would probably have had no chance to get the wrong translation.


SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Anyway, the lady's Japanese was confusing.


Her honorific expression was not that good, so it was confusing.
She should have said:
今、*御自身*の発言の真意、あるいは説明不足であった点について*おっしゃったのだ（or御説明されたのだ）*と思いますけれども、



SoLaTiDoberman said:


> By the way, you should know that I am by no means a professional translator, either.


I'd like to edit the sentence, which was a joke and probably confusing:
_By the way, you should know that I am by no means a professional translator, either. 
But 99.99% of native Japanese speakers including myself can understand that it was honorific, not passive, when they read the whole context. It was so obvious from the context!_


----------



## SoLaTiDoberman

Katzuhiko Minohara said:


> I investigated the different ways of saying the verb "to say"
> 
> or I think *that you said* the points of the lack of explanations, but
> 貴方が言った　-　した
> あるいは説明不足の点*をおっしゃったんだと*思いますけれども、
> あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
> あるいは説明不足の点*を申し上げたんだと*思いますけれども、
> あるいは説明不足の点*を申したんだと*思いますけれども、
> あるいは説明不足の点*を言ったんだと*思いますけれども、
> 
> then the passive form will be like follows?
> 貴方に言われた　-　された
> or I think *that it was said to you* about the points of lack of explanations, but
> あるいは説明不足の点*をおっしゃられたんだと*思いますけれども、 this is not passive
> あるいは説明不足の点*を言わられたんだと*思いますけれども、　grammatically wrong as well
> あるいは説明不足の点*を申し上げられたんだと*思いますけれども、　grammatically wrong as  well
> あるいは説明不足の点*を申しられたんだと*思いますけれども、 grammatically wrong as  well
> あるいは説明不足の点*を言わられたんだと*思いますけれども、 grammatically wrong as  well


I don't know your intention, but 申す and 申し上げる are definitely wrong in this context, which brings about much more confusion. They are 謙譲語.
言う is wrong in this context because it is not 敬語.
Anyway, I don't think your try makes any sense unless there is a specific context and background there.
In this thread's context, thinking about the passive tense is just impossible.
Therefore, you should open a new thread if you want to ask about them, IMHO. 
Judging from this input, I cannot help thinking that you know next to nothing about the Japanese 敬語 system.

I think there is a lot of language barrier and confusion existing in this thread...


----------



## Katzuhiko Minohara

了解です。違う糸を開きます。

この糸の結果は　*言われた*は*　*言うの　敬語であったことで終わりました。

あるいは説明不足の点*を言われたんだと*思いますけれども、
or I think *that you said* the points of the lack of explanations, but

私がこの糸で　ついでに理解したかった狙いは、敬語であるか謙譲語であるかではなく、
私が苦手である　動詞の活用にあります。例えば　言う　to say
そして、「～された」の文の作り方です。なので、違う糸を開いて聞きます。

敬語と謙譲語はまだ勉強をしていなくて、次の段階で勉強するつもりです。
そこから、*言われた*の言い方が　敬語であった事に　まず最初に気が付かず　「された」の文だと思ったのです。
結果として、敬語も謙譲語も勉強しなくてはならないことと
*言われた*の　*～れた*の部分が*　*非常に「された」の文の作り方に似ていることが
私にとって貴重な情報でした。


----------

