# The elative form for nouns with more than three root letters



## Tensor78

Hi,

I know how to form the elative (comparative and superlative) for nouns with only three root letters, but how do I form the elative if the noun has more than three root letters? What is the pattern? 

Thanks.


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## cherine

Hi,

You use the word أكثر + the maSdar:
منتشر - أكثر انتشارًا
متحمِّل - أكثر تحمُّلاً
مثير - أكثر إثارة
...
As you can see, it's like the English usage of "more+adjective". And you can use other words instead of akthar, like أشد، أعظم ...


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> You use the word أكثر + the maSdar:
> منتشر - أكثر انتشارًا
> متحمِّل - أكثر تحمُّلاً
> مثير - أكثر إثارة
> ...
> As you can see, it's like the English usage of "more+adjective". And you can use other words instead of akthar, like أشد، أعظم ...



Hi,

Thanks for the reply. How many of these words exist? If there aren't too many, will you list them with vowelling please?

Now, you're saying that I take these words and follow them with the verbal noun? Is that correct? So, I should take the four-consonant adjective, find the verbal root from which it is derived, and then take the verbal noun from that root and use it as you described? Is this correct?

Thanks.


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## clevermizo

Tensor78 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. How many of these words exist? If there aren't too many, will you list them with vowelling please?



There are probably too many of these to list. 



> Now, you're saying that I take these words and follow them with the verbal noun? Is that correct? So, I should take the four-consonant adjective, find the verbal root from which it is derived, and then take the verbal noun from that root and use it as you described? Is this correct?



Yes, that's right. Note, that the verbal noun is used in the منصوب case. So, literally أكثر انتشارًا means 'more (in terms of its) spread'. The English 'widespreader' and 'widespreadest' would be equally awkward, and so we say 'more widespread' .


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## Tensor78

clevermizo said:


> There are probably too many of these to list.



OK. But, are they interchangeable? Can the one that she used as an example be applied in any situation? 



clevermizo said:


> Yes, that's right. Note, that the verbal noun is used in the منصوب case. So, literally أكثر انتشارًا means 'more (in terms of its) spread'. The English 'widespreader' and 'widespreadest' would be equally awkward, and so we say 'more widespread' .



Thanks for the help.


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## clevermizo

Tensor78 said:


> OK. But, are they interchangeable? Can the one that she used as an example be applied in any situation?



Hmm, well I don't know how common it would be to say أكثر بُعدًا instead of أبعد or أكثر كُبرًا instead of أكبر. It would kind of be like saying "more far" instead of "farther" in English, or "more big" instead of "bigger." But again you can't say importanter, it's only more important. Although I'm not a proponent of making analogies like that across unrelated languages, in this case it seems applicable. There are certain words (usually due to their length) which are not amenable to forming natural-sounding elatives in Arabic.

I'd say one says أكثر ــــًا when you can't make the form أَفْعَل out of the word. When the form أفعل exists, then use that instead.


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## Tensor78

clevermizo said:


> Hmm, well I don't know how common it would be to say أكثر بُعدًا instead of أبعد or أكثر كُبرًا instead of أكبر. It would kind of be like saying "more far" instead of "farther" in English, or "more big" instead of "bigger." But again you can't say importanter, it's only more important. Although I'm not a proponent of making analogies like that across unrelated languages, in this case it seems applicable. There are certain words (usually due to their length) which are not amenable to forming natural-sounding elatives in Arabic.
> 
> I'd say one says أكثر ــــًا when you can't make the form أَفْعَل out of the word. When the form أفعل exists, then use that instead.



Thanks. But, I think that my questioning was a bit misleading. I meant to ask whether the modifier she used in her original example could be used with any _four_ (or more) consonant adjective, not any adjective period. 

My understanding as of now is that any three consonant adjective can be put into the elative by following the standard patterns. And, the verbal noun of any four or more consonant adjective can be used with the example she used or any of the other options that she alluded to in order to form the elative. Correct?

Thanks.


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## Tensor78

Now that I think of it, I have a related question to follow up. 

What happens if the adjective in question is biconsonantal? That is, if it only has two consonants. 

If the second consonant is doubled, then do we through the second fatHa on the first consonant and simply double the second consonant? For example, would "hotter" be " 'aHarr " instead of " 'aHrar "? 

What happens if the adjective is truly biconsonantal? That is, no doubling, just two distinct consonants with some vowelling in between. Do such adjectives exist? How would one put them into the elative? 

Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

أحرّ
and I don't think bi-consonantal adjectives exist in Arabic.


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## Tensor78

إسكندراني said:


> أحرّ
> and I don't think bi-consonantal adjectives exist in Arabic.



Thanks. But, what about the post #7? Is my understanding there correct?

Thanks again.


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> You use the word أكثر + the maSdar:
> منتشر - أكثر انتشارًا
> متحمِّل - أكثر تحمُّلاً
> مثير - أكثر إثارة
> ...
> As you can see, it's like the English usage of "more+adjective". And you can use other words instead of akthar, like أشد، أعظم ...



Sorry to dig up this older thread, but what happens if the verbal root in question has more than one verbal noun (maSdar)? Can all the verbal nouns for that root be used interchangeably to form the elative?

Thanks.


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## barkoosh

Tensor78 said:


> Sorry to dig up this older thread, but what happens if the verbal root in question has more than one verbal noun (maSdar)? Can all the verbal nouns for that root be used interchangeably to form the elative?


Yes. Any maSdar works.


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## Tensor78

barkoosh said:


> Yes. Any maSdar works.



Awesome. Thanks.


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> You use the word أكثر + the maSdar:
> منتشر - أكثر انتشارًا
> متحمِّل - أكثر تحمُّلاً
> مثير - أكثر إثارة
> ...
> As you can see, it's like the English usage of "more+adjective". And you can use other words instead of akthar, like أشد، أعظم ...



OK I'm going to bring this up one more time; a question just popped into my head. I know that usually only the masculine singular is used to form the elative. But in theory, a masculine plural, feminine singular, and feminine plural all exist. 

So, how would I construct these other forms when using this modifier + verbal noun construction? Do I just put the modifier into the form I'm interested in and leave the verbal noun alone? Do I need to change the verbal noun in some way and leave the modifier alone? Do I change both the modifier and the verbal noun?

My instincts are telling me that it's the first option. 

e.g. blacker (feminine singular) = kuthraa sawaadan ???

Is this correct? 

Thanks.


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## cherine

The forms I gave you are used for singular, dual and plural, masculine and feminine. Context tells what you are describing. 

To use one of the examples mentioned before:
شيء أكثر انتشارًا - شيئان أكثر انتشارًا - أشياء أكثر انتشارً - أغنية أكثر انتشارًا


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> The forms I gave you are used for singular, dual and plural, masculine and feminine. Context tells what you are describing.
> 
> To use one of the examples mentioned before:
> شيء أكثر انتشارًا - شيئان أكثر انتشارًا - أشياء أكثر انتشارً - أغنية أكثر انتشارًا



Thanks for replying. 

Yes, I understand that in practice only the masculine singular is used. However, my book acknowledges the existence of other forms for the masculine plural and the feminine singular and plural. It actually lists these. That is, for the non-color/defects triconsonantal roots. 

Do these same forms exist for the modifier + verbal noun construct? I understand what is used in practice, but I'd like to know how to form the others anyway.


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## cherine

Could you share with us the examples given by your book? This way we can have a basis to discuss and we'd understand what is it exactly you're talking about.


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> Could you share with us the examples given by your book? This way we can have a basis to discuss and we'd understand what is it exactly you're talking about.



For the elative of non-colors/defects with 3 root letters only we have:

'af3alu = masculine singular (used all the time apparently without regard to actual number or gender)
fu3laa = feminine singular 
'afaa'ilu = masculine plural
fu3layaatun = feminine plural
fu3alun = feminine plural (alternative to above)

I've used the standard fa3ala paradigm to show the patterns. 

Can I put the modifier + verbal noun constructs into similar forms by changing the pattern of the modifier, verbal noun, or both? 

Thanks.


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## cherine

These forms mean "the most+adjective", not "more+adjective".


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## Tensor78

cherine said:


> These forms mean "the most+adjective", not "more+adjective".



Hm. Even the masculine singular form? So, the masculine singular means more + adjective _and_ most + adjective? How do we discern which is which? Context?


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## barkoosh

Your book is not talking about the cases when a maSdar comes after the elative. When using the form "more/most + maSdar", more/most is always in masc. plural singular:
huwa akthar sawaadan; hiya akthar sawaadan; hum akthar sawaadan...


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## Tensor78

barkoosh said:


> Your book is not talking about the cases when a maSdar comes after the elative. When using the form "more/most + maSdar", more/most is *always in masc. plural*:
> huwa akthar sawaadan; hiya akthar sawaadan; hum akthar sawaadan...



I'm a bit confused. You say that it is always in the masculine plural, but the examples you gave are all the masculine _singular_. Did you make a mistake by accident?


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## barkoosh

My bad! My bad! I had a long sleepless night working. I'll fix it. Sorry. Thank you


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## Tensor78

Thanks, man.


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