# summa ducum, Atrides, visa Priameide, fertur Maenadis effusis obstipuisse comis



## sandybelle89

hi again 
and sorry for disturbing 

 for whom studied latin .. i need to translate this sentence into English with being aware of english grammar 



summa ducum, Atrides, visa Priameide fertur
    Maenadis effusis obstipuisse comis


O Agamemnon (son of Atreus ),the top of the leaders ( the highest leader), with the daughter of Priam (Cassandra) having been seen, is said to have been struck dumb at the flowing hair of the Maenad. 

visa : i think that it's p.p.p  from v. video , videre , vidi , visum 
so i don't know how to put this participle in a good english sentence meaning (the seen cansandra ) can i say the seen casandra ? is it right in english ?
and is it right to say : having been seen ???
but he put with the daughter before having been seen , but is it correct ???? :S:S please help :S :roll: 
thanks in advance
Nehad


here's also another translation : 

 O Agamemnon (son of Atreus ),the top of the leaders ( the highest leader),is said ( i think it's said is better ) when he saw casandra to be astounded by the Bacchante hair which had been poured 

???
but this one is also wrong as i can't say when he saw casandra to be astounded

but ?? hmmm.., don't know  :S please help

heeeyyy... can I say:
O, Agamemnon (the son of Atreus ) the top of the leaders (he highest leader ) it's said that when he saw casandra , he was astounded by he Bacchante flowing hair 

is this ok ???

can i say : the seen casandra ???
( i want to mean  casandra whom he saw )


----------



## Cagey

Re: visa.

The Latin says "the having been seen Cassandra" as you know, because the past participle is passive, and Cassandra will be the subject. 

However, in English, we would usually make Agamemnon,  the active subject of the verb.  In our translation, we would use a finite verb rather than an participle, as you have done in this translation:[O] Agamemnon (the son of Atreus ) the highest leader is said, when he saw Casandra , to have been astounded by the Bacchante flowing hair.​You could preserve the order of the original:The highest leader, the son of Atreus,  when he saw Cassandra, is said to have been astounded by the Bacchante's flowing hair.​Other variations are possible.  I am certain you can improve on this.


----------



## sandybelle89

hi cagey , 
thank you sooo sooo much .. 
but i want to ask .. how can i start the new sentence after the comma with "is said"? where's the subject ? 
isn't it passive ? 
so , who said  that when he saw Casandra , to have been astounded by the Bacchante flowing hair ?? 
and thank you again so much  
Nehad ^_^



Cagey said:


> Re: visa.
> 
> The Latin says "the having been seen Cassandra" as you know, because the past participle is passive, and Cassandra will be the subject.
> 
> However, in English, we would usually make Agamemnon,  the active subject of the verb.  In our translation, we would use a finite verb rather than an participle, as you have done in this translation:[O] Agamemnon (the son of Atreus ) the highest leader is said, when he saw Casandra , to have been astounded by the Bacchante flowing hair.​You could preserve the order of the original:The highest leader, the son of Atreus,  when he saw Cassandra, is said to have been astounded by the Bacchante's flowing hair.​Other variations are possible.  I am certain you can improve on this.


----------



## sandybelle89

and also i want to ask  why have we put the word is said in this translation 
what is the equivalent to it in latin here ?

and can't i say : 
[O] Agamemnon (the son of Atreus ) the highest leader , when he saw Casandra ,he  has been astounded by the Bacchante flowing hair.
???

and also you said" Cassandra will be the subject"
isn't it here accusative ?

i mean object *


----------



## Cagey

sandybelle89 said:


> Hi Cagey,
> Thank you sooo sooo much ..
> but I want to ask .. how can I start the new sentence after the comma with "is said"? Where's the subject ?
> isn't it passive ?
> so , who said  that when he saw Casandra , to have been astounded by the Bacchante flowing hair ??
> and thank you again so much
> Nehad ^_^


(We prefer that you do your best to write with the proper capitals and punctuation.  There are a few changes in red above, to show what I mean.)

Fertur ="he is carried (reported)"; we assume this means that tradition is carrying the story about him and passing it on.  In English, this is often translated as "he is said", meaning that this is reported by people in general, not one specific person.   Grammatically, Agamemnon is the subject of the passive.  In your version, it would be "The highest leader ... is said .... "

In the Latin, _visa Priameide_ is an "ablative absolute", which English might translate literally as "with Cassandra having been seen".  However, as I said above, we usually change such constructions, making the subject of the sentence (Agamemnon) as the subject of the finite verb in the active "when he saw Cassandra."  That is why in my translation Cassandra is the direct object, though she is not in the Latin. 

_obstipuisse_ is a perfect infinitive.  This means that it describes something that happened before the action of the main verb (fertur).  In English, we indicate that by translating it as a perfect: "He is said to have been astounded".  ("To have been" sounds passive, but it is the English translation of the Latin active form "to be struck dumb".)

I don't see how you can start a new sentence with "is said".  What precedes it is not a sentence.

We use "O" only when we translate a vocative, when the person is being directly addresssed.  However, Agamemnon is not being addressed here, and this is not a vocative.  I would omit the "O".

I hope that I have answered your questions.


----------



## loco44

Theere's a comma missed after 'visa Priameide':
Summa ducum, Atrides, visa     Priameide*,* fertur
    maenadis effusis obstipuisse comis.

So it could be:
_The most distinguished leader     of Atreus, having caught sight of the daughter of Priam, is said     to have been awestruck by the streaming hair of a Maenad (Bacchante)._


----------



## Flaminius

Moderator Note:

Please be reminded that the original poster is translating Latin and wants assistance. All your comments must address the topic sentence *and* be relevant to what have been said about the English translation that *sandybelle89* is working on.

Other posters with their own questions on the Latin sentence are more than welcome to post.  They are kindly requested to do their best to relate their questions to previous comments written for helping her (good comments can help not only one but many).  

I hope for your understanding and a pleasant stay around here.

Cheers,
Flam moderator


----------



## Starfrown

loco44 said:


> _...of a Maenad (Bacchante)._


 
Cassandra is the Maenad, unless I have misunderstood, and therefore the indefinite article "a" would not be appropriate.


----------

