# 30 years after, quo vadis España



## Cracker Jack

Today, the 22nd of November marks the 30th post-Franco year.  In a way of speaking, this date marks the starting point for a new Spain.  The death of Franco virtually dismantled the dictatorship.  

During his era, Spain used to be in a rut, not much like it is right now, enjoying the prestige of being an industrialized state. For most Spaniards, the recovery of its liberty as a nation regales a new age.

Apart from its, economic and political impact, this event also heralded cultural changes especially in terms of language.  As it is well known, the suppression of the use of indigenous languages may well have suppressed the practice of culture.  This is in reference to how Catalan, Gallego and Basque language have barely eked itself out.  However, history has demonstrated that the proscription of these languages in schools have only proven that now, they have even flourished.

Teaching of these languge have gone in full force and effect.  Although Spain remains unified by a common language and culture shared by all.

Some Catalans, and to that effect maybe the Basques and Galicians, have vehemently maintained an unperturbed stance in their being Catalans.  But they cannot be blamed.  They believe that they have a unique culture in a Madrid ''dominated'' Spain.  The same might hold true for other communities.

These communities have long yearned for autonomy and ethnocentricity that has marked the cultural interplay.  I find it funny that some Catalans jokingly refer to themselves as Catalans when they are in Spain.  But abroad, they say they are Spanish/Spaniards.

So, I thinks with this cultural diversity, Spain can still proceed smoothly - diversified though united.  At least, so to speak.


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## astronauta

VERY TOUCHY SUBJECT. 





			
				Cracker Jack said:
			
		

> The death of Franco virtually dismantled the dictatorship.


 I fully disagree with this, Juan Carlos was appointed by Franco and many continue to see the monarchy as an "extension" of the dictatorship as to the lack of transparency on their business and secret relations with other dictator/leaders for personal enrichment and the inability of the nation to elect their own head of state.


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## Fernando

That is why Canada or Australia are still dictatorships.


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## astronauta

Fernando said:
			
		

> That is why Canada or Australia are still dictatorships.


 ????


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## Laia

Cracker Jack said:
			
		

> As it is well known, the suppression of the use of *indigenous languages* may well have suppressed the practice of culture. This is in reference to how Catalan, Gallego and Basque language have barely eked itself out.


 
You must be joking... indigeneous??


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## Fernando

astronauta said:
			
		

> ????


Both of them have a Queen as head of State.


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## Fernando

Laia said:
			
		

> You must be joking... indigeneous??



Indigenous is not derogative. He simply wants to say "from the zone", "native".


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## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> Indigenous is not derogative. He simply wants to say "from the zone", "native".


 
 ... well...


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## astronauta

Fernando said:
			
		

> Both of them have a Queen as head of State.


 The image of the queen in Canada is purely symbolic. We do not support her household/yachts and holiday chateaus with our taxes and she is not involved in our government decisions. 

Michael Jean, her representative in Canada only partakes in events with speeches and kissing children.

Fernando, why would you bring this up if we are talking about Spain?


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## Fernando

To Laia: Your surprise surprised me and so your surprise with my try to clear up surprise me even more.

What did surprise you in #5?


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## Fernando

astronauta said:
			
		

> The image of the queen in Canada is purely symbolic. We do not support her household/yachts and holiday chateaus with our taxes and she is not involved in our government decisions.
> 
> Michael Jean, her representative in Canada only partakes in events with speeches and kissing children.


So, Juan Carlos does otherwise? I am confused. Maybe the king is passing laws on its own and I did not notice.



			
				astronauta said:
			
		

> Fernando, why would you bring this up if we are talking about Spain?



Because you implied Spain was not a democracy under a king.


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## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> To Laia: Your surprise surprised me and so your surprise with my try to clear up surprise me even more.
> 
> What did surprise you in #5?


 
I don't understand you right now...  eing?

If you are asking for my 





> well...


 (deduzco), what I meant is that if the meaning of the word is different in English than in Spanish, I'm sorry. But (as you know) the same sentence in Spanish using "indígena" I think is very derogatory...

P.D: era algo así como "pues vale"


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## astronauta

Fernando said:
			
		

> So, Juan Carlos does otherwise? I am confused. Maybe the king is passing laws on its own and I did not notice.


 I differ, but that is my opinion. 





			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Because you implied Spain was not a democracy under a king.


 I did not imply, I said SOME people as well as me (as noted in my post) think so.


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## BasedowLives

so was Antonio Tejero pro Franco, anti Franco or neither?  that will help me better understand astrounata's position on the subject of the Juan Carlos.


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## Fernando

Laia said:
			
		

> I don't understand you right now...   eing?
> 
> If you are asking for my  (deduzco), what I meant is that if the meaning of the word is different in English than in Spanish, I'm sorry. But (as you know) the same sentence in Spanish using "indígena" I think is very derogatory...


Then I understood you correctly but expressed myself badly. 

"Indígena" is not derogatory, unless you desire to sound this way. When I say "pueblos indígenas" I do not want to be derogatory. Usually you refer to "incivilized" peoples, since those are the only peoples which use the tribal system (ethnicity = state), but you use the word "indigenismo" to refer to a way of speak which is linked to an specific zone, with no derogatory intention.


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## Fernando

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> so was Antonio Tejero pro Franco, anti Franco or neither?  that will help me better understand astrounata's position on the subject of the Juan Carlos.


Franco was dead 6 years before, but I assume he was pro Franco.


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## astronauta

BL that is a very long story; and it has many sides that may be interpreted in many ways.

To put it simple, I just would prefer a republic instead of a monarchy that costs so much money that is clearly needed elsewhere such as the health system. I also do not like the treatment this lot gets (untouchables) and the abuse that gives way to; plus the sole basis of their "sovereignity" has just vanished with the recent royal-plebeian marriage and the children that will come from that union that will inherit such head of state position regardless of their capabilities.


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## BasedowLives

ok.  i'm not trying to play devils advocate or anything, just wanting to learn...so...

Even though he was appointed by Franco, why would Juan Carlos be seen as an extension of Franco, if he prevented a coup d'etat from a probably pro Franco military guy? (please excuse my ignorance of military terms)

edit:  astrounata posted before me  and i assume this is one of the ways you are talking about that it could be interpreted.


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## astronauta

Personally BL, I think JC will do ANYTHING to secure the crown for himself and his family.


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## Fernando

astronauta said:
			
		

> BL that is a very long story; and it has many sides that may be interpreted in many ways.
> 
> To put it simple, I just would prefer a republic instead of a monarchy that costs so much money that is clearly needed elsewhere such as the health system. I also do not like the treatment this lot gets (untouchables) and the abuse that gives way to; plus the sole basis of their "sovereignity" has just vanished with the recent royal-plebeian marriage and the children that will come from that union that will inherit such head of state position regardless of their capabilities.


And I perfectly understand your worries. Many many people think the same, but I think it was a bit harsh your equation-like: Spain has a king = Spain is not a democracy. 

I like monarchy, to a point. It has the problems you have told. I think it has some advantages, but Spain will perform good or bad reagradless the head of the state.


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## astronauta

Fernando said:
			
		

> but I think it was a bit harsh your equation-like: Spain has a king = Spain is not a democracy.


 Sorry if it sounded harsh to you, but I resent that it has never been up to the citizens that subsidize them wether they want or not a crown to support.


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## Fernando

Well, they said they wanted. It was in the 1978 Constitution. That is more than British can say.


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## Papalote

Fernando said:
			
		

> Both of them have a Queen as head of State.


 
Hi, Fernando

Please, if you do not know anything about Canada and our political makeup, please refrain from making comparisons which make no sense. 

Moreover, if you had read any of our newspapers and opinion polls you would come to realize that, a few Loyalists excepted, the rest of Canada hate having the Queen on our money and her representatives (all Provinces have a Lieutenant General) in our midst.

We are not a monarchy and neither the Queen nor Jean have a say in Canadian life, cultural, economic and political.  They just spend our money flying around the globe pretending they are doing some good. Go figure!

Hasta, Cheers,

P


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## Fernando

You have exactly described what it is the kings' role in Spain.

Thank you for confirming my views on Canadian political system. And please, do not make a poll. Maybe you will get the surprise Australian got.


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## astronauta

Paplote, I think you meant we pay for *Micael and Micael only *to fly around and a budget that anyone can escrutinize, but, different to the UK, we do not support the queen, her employees (a whole corporation) her holidays, her summer chateaus, her yachts and her WHOLE family.

Currently, the Spanish royal family consists of 17 members (and growing), of which all have security, culinary, medical, secretarial (among others) help, plus many residences and leisure yachts, cars and the finest toys, clothes, etc. and dispose of an entire batallion of help every time they travel plus the things I do not even now about.


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## kiro

Papalote said:
			
		

> Moreover, if you had read any of our newspapers and opinion polls you would come to realize that, a few Loyalists excepted, the rest of Canada hate having the Queen on our money and her representatives (all Provinces have a Lieutenant General) in our midst.


I also hate having the Queen on our money (and I am British) but are you sure that your opinion is representative of most Canadians? Most of the ones I have known are much more in favour of the Royal Family than the majority of people here seem to be. Although I notice that you live in the French part of Canada, so maybe that has something to do with it? (Sorry to go off from the main subject of this thread, by the way).


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## kiro

Fernando said:
			
		

> Thank you for confirming my views on Canadian political system. And please, do not make a poll. Maybe you will get the surprise Australian got.


In Canada I don't even think it would be a surprise.


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## astronauta

kiro said:
			
		

> Most of the ones (Canadians) I have known are much more in favour of the Royal Family than the majority of people here seem to be.



Most Canadians I know don't care much about Lizzy, but there is a few that do; and that's mainly for royal gossip, which I suspect are the same as the ones that faithfully watch Coronation Street every day.


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## Fernando

I sincerely enjoy this thread on monarchy. The problem is that is absolutely off-topic.


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## astronauta

Fernando said:
			
		

> I sincerely enjoy this thread on monarchy. The problem is that is absolutely off-topic.


We had one going that was pretty good, remember? 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=42426&highlight=monarquia


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## kiro

astronauta said:
			
		

> Most Canadians I know don't care much about Lizzy, but there is a few that do; and that's mainly for royal gossip, which I suspect are the same as the ones that faithfully watch Coronation Street every day.


I would love to see a future with no Royal Family, no Coronation Street (I hate it ) and, most of all, no people who are interested in either... but something tells me that they are going to be around for a long while yet, both here and in the former colonies (and especially the ones that are traditional supporters of the monarchy, like Canada).

PS. I agree with Fernando, sorry for the brief diversion.


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## zebedee

Yes, please stay on-topic or please open up a new thread about Canada & Australia if you want to talk about that, so I can move some of these posts into it.

The topic in this thread, in case anyone forgot, is "30 years of Spanish monarchy."


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## Roi Marphille

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> so was Antonio Tejero pro Franco, anti Franco or neither? that will help me better understand astrounata's position on the subject of the Juan Carlos.


*Antonio Tejero and the others were MONARCHIC supporters*. They wanted the King to Govern Spain but without the left-wing, communists..etc. Source: a documentary in the TV.


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## Cracker Jack

Well, since some posts have already delved about the topic on monarchial sovereignty, I'd like to reconcile it with what is happening in Spain when it comes to political functions.  The way I understand it, correct me if I'm mistaken, Juan Carlos or Elizabeth are just titular heads of state.  Meaning to say, they are figure heads and they don't run the affairs of the state.

On the other hand, Rodríguez Zapatero and Tony Blair are the heads of the government.  Meaning to say, they head the executive branch of the government.  As for Canada, they have a Paul Martin as prime minister.

The idea of divine heritage among monarchs, meaning that they are directly descended from heaven has long been shattered by the French Revolution.  When the heads of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette went rolling, the subjects were no longer compelled to bow down before the monarchs. They can keep their royal lineage but they leave the affairs of the state to a duly elected leaders mandate by the people.

The reason I started this thread is because I wanted to find out how Spaniards feel after 30 years of return to republican rule, i.e. a rule that is determined by electoral results which is one of the hallmarks of democracy.  Spain has become a forefront in Western Europe and is enjoying the status of being an industrialized state.  It can be at par with its other prosperous EU neighbor states.

Any takers?


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## astronauta

CJ, I do not think Spain lives a full, healthy democracy (sorry Fernando) as my opinion is that some of the royal family members enjoy full impunity that no other crown enjoys (except middle east), have numerous business conections that power the country, manipulate the press so nothing bad is said about them and if I could possibly find the term for "enchufar" many people in exchange of personal favours, I would include it here too...

I remember how the Swedish prince got a speeding ticket a few months ago; as petty as that seems, you will never see that in Spain...


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## siljam

Well, at least Juan Carlos's sons don't do stupid things like the sons 
of Charles


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> CJ, I do not think Spain lives a full, healthy democracy (sorry Fernando) as my opinion is that some of the royal family members enjoy full impunity that no other crown enjoys (except middle east), have numerous business conections that power the country, manipulate the press so nothing bad is said about them and if I could possibly find the term for "enchufar" many people in exchange of personal favours, I would include it here too...
> 
> I remember how the Swedish prince got a speeding ticket a few months ago; as petty as that seems, you will never see that in Spain...


 

Do you think that?
I don't agree with you...

*Spain lives a full democracy*. Other thing is what the royal family does...I think we are lucky.. our royal family is worried about people's opinion... others crowns aren't so careful... or they are unconcerned..

Mira astronauta, no estoy de acuerdo.... Si eres de España, desde luego que no tienes mucha información sobre el país, porque creo que no tiene nada que ver que tengamos democracia, con que dejemos que los reyes hagan su vida, la verdad... ¿Me estás diciendo que en Suecia hay más democracia porque multaron al príncipe?? Yo no creo que la democracia de un país se mida por cómo sus casas reales son de discretas. 
Mi opinión es que España (en general) quiere demasiado a su Casa Real, como para andar desprestigiándola (incluso cuando se conocen los detalles, ten en cuenta que la gente no es tonta... yo puedo ver un reportaje en televisión en el que el Rey se ha roto una pierna y dicen que ha sido esquiando, cuando la verdad es que me entero por otro lado, que se la ha roto montando en la moto cuando se iba a una fiesta privada...)... a otros países, eso les importa un pepino... y yo creo que todo influye... que la Casa Real tenga sus contactos... que sus reyes se hagan de querer...

Esto es sólo una opinión...

Alundra.


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## astronauta

Siljam, yes he has; I can produce countless examples of that.

Alundra, yes I think that. I am from Spain and travel there at least once a year to visit my family and I talk to it's people, watch Spanish telly and listen to radio.
I am republican, and I am not trying to convince you to become one. I do not think that modern times call for a monarchy, which by the way, is breaking the very rules of its existence.


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> Siljam, yes he has; I can produce countless examples of that.
> 
> Alundra, yes I think that. I am from Spain and travel there at least once a year to visit my family and I talk to it's people, watch Spanish telly and listen to radio.
> I am republican, and I am not trying to convince you to become one. I do not think that modern times call for a monarchy, which by the way, is breaking the very rules of its existence.


 
Can you tell me how you support your statements to say that Spain is not a democratic country?? You can't assert that, but you have a good answer... the fact that you travel once a year, or that you watch Spain telly don't tell me anything... 

I have the feeling you are not giving me a straight answer and you are avoiding the issue.

Alundra.


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## astronauta

Alundra, you have done everything to discualify my opinions as valid; be it that I don't live in Spain, that I don't have any idea, that if I express my opinions about it I MUST therefore be attacked because it is not fair and proceeded to ask sarcastic questions.

I think you are after something else; I am not going to play your game and I am not going to repeat myself.


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## Cracker Jack

astronauta said:
			
		

> CJ, I do not think Spain lives a full, healthy democracy (sorry Fernando) as my opinion is that some of the royal family members enjoy full impunity that no other crown enjoys (except middle east), have numerous business conections that power the country, manipulate the press so nothing bad is said about them and if I could possibly find the term for "enchufar" many people in exchange of personal favours, I would include it here too...
> 
> I remember how the Swedish prince got a speeding ticket a few months ago; as petty as that seems, you will never see that in Spain...


 
Hi astro. I may not have lived that long in Spain but I have seen enough to say that indeed, Spain is a full-fledged democracy.  Here, there is right of suffrage and the bill of rights is respected.  In Spain, there is freedom of the press, freedom to assembly, freedom of religion (although the present-day Spaniards are not very religious at all), freedom to redress public grievances and everyone has his rights upheld.

But since the Spanish government is ruled by humans, there are humans errors too.  But these are not enough to supplant the democracy enjoyed by the people.  In fact, sex and violence are even shown in television.

The privilege accorded to the royal family is not a solely seen in Spain.  The other monarchies and even heads of states enjoy them too.  They have the right ''connections.''  They pull the right strings. Consider Clinton.  The stains and DNA do not lie.  But still he is scot-free and earns a 6 digit something for a speech.

The ones that you can site may have semblance of truth but they are not enough to undo the present democracy in Spain.


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## astronauta

Hi CJ, you are right in many of your statements, but I still thik there is shady areas regarding the monarchy.

Regarding freedom of press, let me give you an example; about a year ago, in Asturias, someone threw some eggs at the king and none of the news agencies dared to talk about it; however, have you heard all the news regarding Leticia's formidable academic formation, it's absolutly rubbish.

It's an example that I can provide regarding the press.

I do not expect an error-free system (as you cited) but I think the cost of monarchy is excessive for what they do.


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## Fernando

Astronauta, we have got your point. Spain has a monarchy. So, this is not a democracy. Please, post any other comment in "Los Reyes de España" thread, which goes to the point.


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## astronauta

Fernando, I simply answered the above CJ post which was adressed to me.


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## Fernando

Yes, astronauta, but the CJ post has 3 paragraphs. Only one is talking about the kings (3rd one). You turn again and again to the monarchy business. Please, claim the kings are rubbish but tell us why this affects to the core of the democracy system. 

I sincerely encourage you to move to the kings thread an join Roi and Ampurdan, who are making my life harder.


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## astronauta

Fernando, thanks for the encouragent but I sincerely don't see why all the fuss about me answering a post addressed to ME that talks about the kings and THE PRESS within the "Re: 30 years after, quo vadis España" thread.

I do not have anything else to say about this matter, however I will answer all questions addressed to me as long as they are not repeats.
Any moderator may advise me otherwise.


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> Alundra, you have done everything to discualify my opinions as valid; be it that I don't live in Spain, that I don't have any idea, that if I express my opinions about it I MUST therefore be attacked because it is not fair and proceeded to ask sarcastic questions.
> 
> I think you are after something else; I am not going to play your game and I am not going to repeat myself.


 
Sorry, astronauta.. I didn't want to disqualify you.... 

I did you a *serious* question, not sarcastic... it isn't a game... You can't assert that a country isn't democratic, and when you are asked, then to say that you don't play.... 

Thanks for your answers...

Alundra.


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## Cracker Jack

astronauta said:
			
		

> Regarding freedom of press, let me give you an example; about a year ago, in Asturias, someone threw some eggs at the king and none of the news agencies dared to talk about it; however, have you heard all the news regarding Leticia's formidable academic formation, it's absolutly rubbish.


 
I see your point astro.  Yes I heard about the egg throwing incident but the press did not dig deeper. They just reported it as it happened.  No in-depth article was written analyzing what could have led to this incident.  Perhaps the press did not have the "balls" to do it.  Or simply they were piss-scared from falling from palace graces.

As for Letizia, I don't think her training is really that formidable.  Although she made it to higher studies, she was never granted the Ph.D.  It was reported that she lacked the dissertation.


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## astronauta

Alundra, I did not answer to because you started to counter-attack Canada and that derived our conversation off-topic. It also seems that none of my answers are good enough for you since I don't write from Spain.

That being clear, all I can say to you is that the word "democracy" comes from the greek "demokratia" and means that citizens may elect their governants through their vote. Do I need to say more?

Cheers.


Thank you CJ. It has always beeen my impression that regarding the crown, the press have ALWAYS muffled the bad and collosally enhance the good. I don't think that is fair; but that comes back to the inequality that it represents.


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> Alundra, I did not answer to because you started to counter-attack Canada and that derived our conversation off-topic. It also seems that none of my answers are good enough for you since I don't write from Spain.
> 
> I never started to counter-attack Canada, I did comparisons (*on-topic*), I needed other country... (Can't be named Canada?)
> 
> Your answers are very good, though you write from Canada. But if you don't say the true (for me) , I ask you answers of because you think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That being clear, all I can say to you is that the word "democracy" comes from the greek "demokratia" and means that citizens may elect their governants through their vote. Do I need to say more?
> 
> In Spain we elect our governants through the vote...
> The fact we pay the spendings from royal family, don't want to say "Spain isn't a democratic country".


 

Alundra.


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## diegodbs

astronauta said:
			
		

> Alundra, I did not answer to because you started to counter-attack Canada and that derived our conversation off-topic. It also seems that none of my answers are good enough for you since I don't write from Spain.
> 
> That being clear, all I can say to you is that the word "democracy" comes from the greek "demokratia" and means that citizens may elect their governants through their vote. Do I need to say more?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> Thank you CJ. It has always beeen my impression that regarding the crown, the press have ALWAYS muffled the bad and collosally enhance the good. I don't think that is fair; but that comes back to the inequality that it represents.


 
Es verdad lo que dices de la democracia, pero en España el rey reina, no gobierna. No tiene ningún poder legislativo, ejecutivo ni judicial. La monarquía puede ser superflua, de hecho lo es, pero no es antidemocrática, al menos en España.


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## astronauta

Very true. However, there is no choice for citizens but to support their lavish lifestyle with the hard-earned money. Where is the freedom on chosing so? 

Does anyone know someone that cannot make ends meet by the end of the month but pays their taxes timely? I do, as a matter of fact, some of my friends and family live like that. I think that if anyone in that position were to chose where such moneys will be spent; it will most definetly not be in haute-couture for all the Borbons.


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> Very true. However, there is no choice for citizens but to support their lavish lifestyle with the hard-earned money. Where is the freedom on chosing so?
> 
> Does anyone know someone that cannot make ends meet by the end of the month but pays their taxes timely? I do, as a matter of fact, some of my friends and family live like that. I think that if anyone in that position were to chose where such moneys will be spent; it will most definetly not be in haute-couture for all the Borbons.


 
Perdona por contestar en castellano, pero así creo que yo podré expresarme mejor, y tu también me entenderás mejor...  


Imagino que te refieres a la familia que tienes en España, que le cuesta mucho llegar a fín de mes para pagar los impuestos (de los que come nuestra familia real)...

Tu familia, como el resto de los españoles (incluida tú, si es que tienes voto en España, por eso me extraña tanto que dudes de la democracia en este país)ha votado quién quiere que gobierne en este país. 

Los impuestos son colocados por los gobernantes (a los cuales hemos votado), en ningún caso por la Casa Real... 
Los impuestos sirven para pagar miles de cosas (no solo mantenimiento de la Casa Real) 
E impuestos, hay en la mayoría de los países, no sólo en España.... yo sé de muy pocos países que se libren de impuestos...(bueno, hay algunos sitios, pero son paraísos fiscales) 

De los impuestos, aparte de la familia real española, viven un montón de funcionarios, políticos, etc ..... o sea, que habría que destituir a un montón de gente, para que tanto tu familia, como todos tus amigos lleguen a final de mes holgadamente, pero creo que esos que viven de nuestros impuestos *"SÍ"* han sido votados por todos nosotros (a lo mejor, incluída tú)...excepto la familia real, que viene en el lote de "ser español"... (y no, para eso no hay libertad, si eres español, en el lote te llevas a los Borbones, pero hay una solución, sal de España y paga impuestos en otro país, cada país imagino que lleva su lote... )

En mi opinión, aunque no hubiese familia real, los impuestos seguirían siendo exorbitantes (como ahora) y tu familia y amigos seguirían llegando a duras penas a final de mes... o sea, que no me vale esa justificación de "mi familia llega duramente a final de mes por culpa de la casa real"... 

Dudo mucho (permíteme dudar) que en el resto de países (aunque no haya Borbones), los impuestos que se pagan no sirvan para alimentar a nadie más... porque la mayoría de los políticos viven, engordan y se pegan unas vacaciones de escándalo a costa de todos los contribuyentes, así que.... lo mismo me da vivir aquí que en cualquier otro lugar, al final, me sacarán los ojos para que un puñado de políticos (tampoco digo todos) vivan a mi costa, y encima, no tendría una casa real (buena, mala, con defectos o sin ellos, tapada por la prensa o sin tapar) a la que poder criticar...  

Por supuesto, nuestra casa real no es un dechado de virtudes (creo que también lo dije en otro mensaje), pero como te dije antes, va en el lote... 
Tampoco son santos de mi devoción, pero no puedo culparlos de la economía en España, y si dices que vienes a menudo, ¿no sabes que ellos no intervienen más que en inauguraciones y aperturas de actos? Su función es exclusivamente social, y no creo que se les pueda culpar por elevar nuestros impuestos para su beneficio... yo de eso culpo a los políticos...

Bueno, esta es mi opinión, espero que me hayas entendido.. 
Un saludete.
Alundra.


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## astronauta

Alundra, con todo el respeto, estas de con~a con esta explicacion en plan de parvulos? Todo por que soy honesta y pongo que no vivo en Espan~a? Que facil seria cambiar el pais y tu ni enterada...

Enga tia, bien sabes lo que discuto!

Te lo recuerdo en castellano por si no lo pillaste:



			
				astronauta said:
			
		

> there is no choice for citizens but to support their lavish lifestyle with the hard-earned money. Where is the freedom on chosing so?


 Traduccion: No existe opcion para los ciudadanos mas que mantener su estilo de vida de despilfarre con el dinero que ganan tan dificilmente. Donde esta la libertad para decidir esto?


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## Fernando

astronauta, deja las coñas y los párvulos.

There is one choice: Choose republican representants, period. Anybody is stopping you from doing so.


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## astronauta

Sin comentario y gracias.


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## Carlston

astronauta said:
			
		

> Alundra, con todo el respeto, estas de con~a con esta explicacion en plan de parvulos? Todo por que soy honesta y pongo que no vivo en Espan~a? Que facil seria cambiar el pais y tu ni enterada...
> 
> Enga tia, bien sabes lo que discuto!
> 
> Te lo recuerdo en castellano por si no lo pillaste:
> 
> Traduccion: No existe opcion para los ciudadanos mas que mantener su estilo de vida de despilfarre con el dinero que ganan tan dificilmente. Donde esta la libertad para decidir esto?


 
Hay muchas más decisiones y mas importantes sobre las que no tenemos elección que la de no poder elegir si monarquía o no.


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## Carlston

presupuesto de la familia real: 8 millones de euros
*presupuesto del forum*: 342 millones de euros
*que pedia galicia para subsanar su deuda histórica*: 120 millones de euros


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## Alundra

astronauta said:
			
		

> Alundra, con todo el respeto, estas de con~a con esta explicacion en plan de parvulos?
> No, yo no estoy de coña ... te explicaba mi opinión con respecto a tus comentarios...
> 
> Todo por que soy honesta y pongo que no vivo en Espan~a?
> Puedes estar tranquila, tu lugar de residencia no es tan importante en esta conversación (para mí)...
> 
> Que facil seria cambiar el pais y tu ni enterada...
> Llevo pagando impuestos muuuuuuchos años  , casi los que tú tienes  ¿Crees que no sé en que se gasta el dinero que tanto esfuerzo me cuesta ganar? jejeejej... será eso...
> 
> Enga tia, bien sabes lo que discuto!
> 
> Te lo recuerdo en castellano por si no lo pillaste:
> 
> Traduccion: No existe opcion para los ciudadanos mas que mantener su estilo de vida de despilfarre con el dinero que ganan tan dificilmente. Donde esta la libertad para decidir esto?
> Creo que Fernando ya te ha contestado a eso... y estoy totalmente de acuerdo con él.


 
Astronauta, está claro que la monarquía es un gastazo superfluo, que no lleva a ningún sitio (aparentemente), y la gente se cabrea cuando piensa en que con ese dinero podríamos hacer cosas muchísimo más productivas que las que se hacen... Yo eso creo que nunca te lo discutí...

Pero de ahí a que digas que en España no hay democracia (o libertad para elegir) porque consentimos en pagar los gastos monárquicos, creo que hay mucha diferencia... y eso es, básicamente, en lo que discrepo contigo...
Y tampoco estoy de acuerdo porque lo dices como si en el resto de países donde no hay monarquía, la gente no pagara gastos superfluos (dime un país democrático, que no tenga monarquía y cuyos impuestos sirvan exclusivamente para el beneficio de los ciudadanos.... Yo creo que no existe, simplemente.. aún teniendo más libertad, según tú) y que España funcionaría mucho mejor sin monarquía debido a los gastos que conlleva...(cosa difícil de imaginar para mí... ya veo que tu opinión es bien distinta). 

Como dice Carlston, hay gastos muchísimo mayores y que a la mayoría de los españoles (no sé la opinión de tus conocidos, hablo por los datos que yo tengo) nos preocupa bastante más que los gastos que puedan ocasionarnos los integrantes de la Casa Real...


Un saludete.
Alundra.


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