# Links to YouTube



## Greetd

I'm sorry for bringing this up again, but I just had to. 
Yes, I have read everything that has been posted on this forum about links to YouTube, and I have read the rules.

Here's the thing: I understand WRF doesn't want to meddle with copyright laws. I myself am careful too, with copying texts on my personal website. But *linking to content can never ever ever be seen as a breach of copyright.* Not by people, and certainly not by law. Because you're not copying anything, on the contrary, you're simply attributing.

If someone posted a video on YouTube about Dutch pronunciation for example, and someone here on the forum linked to that video because it explains a lot about the topic he was discussing, the maker of that video might object to the embedding of the YouTube video on this website, but he would have no reason to complain if we were to link to it. Firstly it makes no sense (I love it when people link to my YouTube videos, it means they're popular; in the statistics for each video, I can see exactly when and where it was linked or embedded and how many people followed the link, it's really interesting), and secondly it is in no way illegal.

So, I really do wonder why linking to YouTube videos is not allowed. It could clear up a lot of problems that non-native speakers have, and you're actually doing the owners/makers of the YouTube videos a favour (and that favour is called SEO, it basically means 'the more links to my content, the merrier'). 

I'm asking a serious question, so I'd appreciate it if the topic wasn't simply closed or deleted.


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## JamesM

Greetd said:


> Here's the thing: I understand WRF doesn't want to meddle with copyright laws. I myself am careful too, with copying texts on my personal website. But *linking to content can never ever ever be seen as a breach of copyright.* Not by people, and certainly not by law. Because you're not copying anything, on the contrary, you're simply attributing.


 
This is quite a bold statement. Attribution is not linking. Attribution is stating the source of the material, not providing a link to the source material itself.  If I post "as Humphrey Bogart's character says in Casablanca, 'Here's looking at you, kid'", that's attribution.  Providing a link to a pirated clip of Casablanca is an entirely different action.

As for the legality of linking, I can find many knowledgeable sources of information that disagree with your statement.

For example, this article from the Citizen Media Law Project:



> The situation changes when you knowingly link to works that clearly infringe somebody's copyright, like pirated music files or video clips of commercially distributed movies and music videos. In this situation, you might be liable for what is known as "contributory copyright infringement." *Contributory copyright infringement* occurs by "intentionally inducing or encouraging direct infringement" of a copyrighted work. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios, Inc. v. Grokster, Ltd, 545 U.S. 913, (2005).


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## Greetd

I'm less familiar with American law than with my own country's so you might have a point. But in any case, YouTube deletes videos that violate copyright laws, right? I thought linking to YouTube is always safe because the responsibility lies with the uploader of the video, not with the person linking to it.

Oh well, I've never heard of a website being sued for linking to a YouTube video, and I've also never come across a website before that prohibited linking to YouTube, it just seems unreasonable and unpractical to me. I really don't see a valid reason.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Hello,

There's another thing: there's a lot of crap on YouTube, and there would be no way to moderate posts because many people do not have access to YouTube - not everyone has, you know. I don´t have access myself, though of course I'm no moderator. 

So if someone decided to link to a porn/racist/antisemitic/sadistic video it could stay for weeks without people realizing what the hell was happening. Not all foreros used the red triangle to report a post. 

If there is a serious language question on the video, you may ask the moderator team if they would allow such link. Then it's their decision, but I have always found their decisions fair.


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## JamesM

Greetd said:


> I'm less familiar with American law than with my own country's so you might have a point. But in any case, YouTube deletes videos that violate copyright laws, right?


 
Not in my experience. I could point you to a few hundred clips of copyrighted material on YouTube without breaking a sweat.  They might delete videos once they are notified, but I don't see any pre-screening occurring related to copyright violation. This means that you can't assume that it s not a violation of copyright because it is on YouTube. I think you can only assume that the copyright owner has not officially notified them yet of the violation.


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## Greetd

Valeria Mesalina said:


> Hello,
> 
> There's another thing: there's a lot of crap on YouTube, and there would be no way to moderate posts because many people do not have access to YouTube - not everyone has, you know. I don´t have access myself, though of course I'm no moderator.
> 
> So if someone decided to link to a porn/racist/antisemitic/sadistic video it could stay for weeks without people realizing what the hell was happening. Not all foreros used the red triangle to report a post.


That's not really a valid argument either, you can't stop people who intend to link to such content from doing so simply by prohibiting all forum members from linking to YouTube. There's porn/racist/antisemitic/... content on other sites too. Doesn't have anything to do with YouTube.  There's a lot of crap on the internet, not on YouTube alone. And I'm sure such links wouldn't go unnoticed, people would click on the link, and say "hey, why did you post that, it's offensive". (Also, I thought YouTube was only blocked in countries like China and North Korea?)



Valeria Mesalina said:


> If there is a serious language question on the video, you may ask the moderator team if they would allow such link. Then it's their decision, but I have always found their decisions fair.


I haven't. That's why I brought this up, I don't think it's fair -- or practical.


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## mirx

Greetd, can you please point me to all those threads discussing You Tube? I don't want to be asking things that may have already been answered. Having said that, I don't see how any other website is different to You Tube; meaning I don't see any valid reason for boycotting the video site apart from the merely commerical ones.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Greetd said:


> That's not really a valid argument either, you can't stop people who intend to link to such content from doing so simply by prohibiting all forum members from linking to YouTube.


Well, it's one of our rules. I agreed to follow them when I signed up.


> *Respect intellectual property.*
> Always acknowledge the source.
> No plagiarized content is allowed.
> No copyrighted material may be inserted into posts except as indicated  here:
> Minor fair use excerpts (one or two) from dictionaries are permitted.
> Quotes and translations of prose up to 4 sentences are permitted. No  audio or  video files or links may be inserted without prior moderator approval. No   links to YouTube are permitted.





> (Also, I thought YouTube was only blocked in countries like China and North Korea?)


 Well mate, it is usually blocked in offices like mine .



> I haven't. That's why I brought this up, I don't think it's fair -- or practical.



Well, it has worked for us for a long time. But you're free to disagree.


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## Greetd

mirx said:


> Greetd, can you please point me to all those threads discussing You Tube? I don't want to be asking things that may have already been answered. Having said that, I don't see how any other website is different to You Tube; meaning I don't see any valid reason for boycotting the video site apart from the merely commerical ones.


This is the topic I was referring to, and this is a post covering the rules concering video and audio material. Notice how the first rule states that you can't link to audio or video material unless you get moderator approval, but the second rule states that you can't post YouTube links (which are no different from, say, Vimeo or GarageTV links) at all. Seems random, doesn't it?


Valeria Mesalina said:


> Well, it's one of our rules. I agreed to follow them when I signed up.
> 
> Well mate, it is usually blocked in offices like mine .


The rule "respect intellectual property" doesn't say we can't link to video material, I respect intellectual property by not copying it and by always acknowledging the source, as is in accordance with the rest of the rules. 
About not having access to certain sites at work, I'm not surfing this forum while I'm at school, I think people aren't meant to be surfing this forum while at work either.  (And I'm a girl.  )


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## JamesM

On the practical side, Valeria has brought up one of the reasons that YouTube links are difficult for us to review as moderators. Many of us check in here during the day and many of us cannot view YouTube from a worksite. Since every link must be pre-approved by a moderator, it means that we must be able to see it in order to approve it.

I will also quote TrentinaNE's contribution on the thread you linked to:



> WRF is a supplement to the WR dictionary. Threads are meant to be "timeless" so that they can help currently unknown users in the future. Threads that ask "please click on the video I uploaded and evaluate my pronunciation" are of extremely limited usefulness to other people. In addition, such links often expire after several days or weeks, leaving behind a virtually worthless thread. We do recognize the importance of listening and speaking for learners of languages. That does not mean that WRF is the proper venue for honing those skills.


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## Valeria Mesalina

Greetd said:


> I think people aren't meant to be surfing this forum while at work either.  (And I'm a girl.  )



You're wrong there. I am allowed to use the forum as a resource when at work, like most os us; It's a dictionary. But YouTube, Facebook and the like are banned.

And I'm a woman .


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## mirx

Greetd said:


> About not having access to certain sites at work, I'm not surfing this forum while I'm at school, I think people aren't meant to be surfing this forum while at work either.  (And I'm a girl.  )



I read the thread and the following is the only piece that can be saved as having some validity:


> _Also, please understand that some moderators are unable to visit many of the video sites because they connect from work and their employers forbid them from visiting such sites_.


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## fenixpollo

There is a different time investment involved in reviewing a video, than that involved with reviewing a website. If someone posts a link to a website, a moderator can click the link and review the site in a matter of 30 seconds, or a minute or two. However, if someone posts a link to a 10-minute video, a moderator must invest that amount of time to review the video -- even if the person's question only involves a 10-second section of the video. 

Another issue is the forum's proofreading guidelines. This is not a free translation service, and we don't provide transcriptions of entire videos; nor do we provide proofreading of long texts; nor do we allow questions where someone links to their site and asks us to review a text on their site. We require that people copy the original context here, and that they limit the context to a few sentences. So most questions that involve a YouTube video are outside the scope of the forum to begin with.


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## danielfranco

As a member of both WRF and YouTube communities, I would like to say a couple of things.

First, YouTube does automatically review the actual content of the uploads. If there is any previous copyright disputes, the uploader will inform you that you are uploading copyrighted material and that your video will not be available worldwide. You may choose to make the video private and share with up to 25 people. I think they have some really powerful image recognition programs out there, in Googleland.

Also, since YouTube is run out of different servers depending on your location, and since there are in fact different copyright laws in different countries, sometimes YouTube videos are not available worldwide. For example, some of the music videos authorized by the music publishers have only limited releases, and are not viewable worldwide. There are in fact videos from the USA that cannot be viewed in other countries. And I'm sure the opposite is true, although I have never come across any "this video is not available in your region" message, yet.

Regardless, I haven't read the actual words of the rule, but I imagine that they MUST say something to the effect that all external video links are forbidden, and just mention YouTube as an example. I'm sure in these forums we're not targeting just one video website.

Right?

Still, for all those interested in sharing language examples, and even jokes, available in YouTube or any other video website, there's always the PM's, no?

So, to sum up this rambling useless rant, yes: I agree with the rules here. I'm jus' sayin'.

D

PS - Erm… *cough cough* Sorries, but I just went into the Rules/FAQ page and read the rules. It says specifically that "no links to YouTube are permitted". Very well, then. Links to Vimeo, Dailymotion, Megavideo, NicoNico Douga, and others are alright, no? Well, I know. No. I feel you, dudes.


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## Nunty

danielfranco said:


> [...]
> 
> PS - Erm… *cough cough* Sorries, but I just went into the Rules/FAQ page and read the rules. It says specifically that "no links to YouTube are permitted". Very well, then. Links to Vimeo, Dailymotion, Megavideo, NicoNico Douga, and others are alright, no? Well, I know. No. I feel you, dudes.


Um... not quite. Extracted from rule 4:





> Quotes and translations of prose up to 4 sentences are permitted. No  audio or  video files or links may be inserted without prior moderator approval. No   links to YouTube are permitted.



Audio and video links must be approved by a moderator before they are posted. There is no automatic permission.

As a wise man recently said, "I'm jus' sayin'".


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## danielfranco

Yes'm! Thanks for saying it. Actually, I was being… Wait. What's the word for when somebody is using litotes?

(cheeky)

Anyway, it's good that a mod said it. Cuz' if I said it then maybe it wouldn't have been taken all that seriously.

Thanks again.


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