# язык или языки?



## JanisPearl

Hi ! I have a list of questions i have to be able to answer to,for my russian exam,and i have a doubt!
If my teacher asks me "Какие языки вы изучаете?" , and i want to say
 "I study russian and english", should i say "я изучаю русский и англиский язык" or "языки" ? I mean, the word "language "is referred both to english and russian,so do i need to put it singular or plural?


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## SweetCherry

Язык. 
If you think in English: 
-Which languages are you studying?
-I am studying Russian and English (language, not languages).


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## JanisPearl

Ok thanks! In italian we simply say "Io studio russo and inglese"="I study russian and english" without the word language! In fact this last one created my problem


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## SweetCherry

The same in English, you don't say the last word, but you *mean *language, in singular.


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## Ptak

JanisPearl said:


> Hi ! I have a list of questions i have to be able to answer to,for my russian exam,and i have a doubt!
> If my teacher asks me "Какие языки вы изучаете?" , and i want to say
> "I study russian and english", should i say "я изучаю русский и англи*й*ский язык" or "языки" ? I mean, the word "language "is referred both to english and russian,so do i need to put it singular or plural?


Both variants are correct.
Perhaps "языки" is a bit more formal.

The most natural answer would be "Я изучаю (o учу) русский и англи*й*ский".


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## slavic_one

Правильно ли сказать "языки" тут? Потому что это значит то же самое как и "Я изучаю русский язык и английский язык" но чтобы не повторялось, кажется только "русский и анчлийский язык". Тоже оравильно только "Я изучаю русский и английский".
По-моему, на пример "Я изучаю славянские (и германские) язык*и*", но "Я изучаю русский, хорватский и польский язык".
А хорошо ли сказать "Я учусь по-русский (и по-английский)", или этот значит что я учусь на пример математику или историю, но на русском (и английском) языке?


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## SweetCherry

I agree with Slavic one, I don't see how языки can be correct in this case, though it can be used in the case he mentioned.


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## Ptak

SweetCherry said:


> I don't see how языки can be correct in this case.


It's strange enough...

Try to google "русский и английский языки"; you'll find a lot of examples.
Google is not even needed here, actually. It's the same thing as with another question of the topic starter: "старое и новое здани*я*". It's normal Russian. It is absolutely correct.

P.S. Oh, SweetCherry, sorry, I've just noticed that your native language is Serbian.


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## Ptak

slavic_one said:


> По-моему, на пример "Я изучаю славянские (и германские) язык*и*", но "Я изучаю русский, хорватский и польский язык".


"Я изучаю русский, хорватский и польский *языки*" is also correct.



> А хорошо ли сказать "Я учусь по-русский (и по-английский)", или этот значит*,* что я учусь например математику или историю, но на русском (и английском) языке?


I am sorry, I didn't understand your question. But "Я учусь по-русски" does not make sense in Russian.


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## Maroseika

Согласно Розенталю, в данном случае правильно только "английский и русский язык" http://booference.pochta.ru/styli_xliv.html#sect194 (пар. 194, п. 1, пп. 4).

А именно, существительное при двух определениях ставится в форме единственного числа, если "перечисляемые разновидности предметов или явлений внутренне связаны, например в сочетаниях терминологического характера; ср.: _в правой и левой руке_ (_половине, стороне_ и т. п.); _оперное и балетное искусство; промышленный и аграрный переворот; учащиеся среднего и старшего школьного возраста; в старославянском и древнерусском книжном языке".

_Но в других случаях возможна и форма множественного числа - если нужно подчеркнуть наличие нескольких предметов, например:
И русский, и английский языки - не тоновые.


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## slavic_one

Ptak said:


> "Я изучаю русский, хорватский и польский *языки*" is also correct.
> 
> 
> I am sorry, I didn't understand your question. But "Я учусь по-русски" does not make sense in Russian.



Sorry for mistakes, wasn't concentrated enough obviosly.
What I was thinking with "я учусь по-русски" is weather is that good expresion for "learning Russian language" or it means "I'm learning sth else, but on Russian language", same as "я учусь на русском языке"..


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## Ptak

slavic_one said:


> Sorry for mistakes, wasn't concentrated enough obviosly.
> What I was thinking with "я учусь по-русски" is weather is that good expresion for "learning Russian language" or it means "I'm learning sth else, but on Russian language", same as "я учусь на русском языке"..


To me, both "я учусь по-русски" and "я учусь на русском языке" don't make sense in Russian. But I understand what you mean. You can say, "я учу английский на немецком", or "я учу математику на немецком". But it could mean that you are sitting in a German class making your English or math homework.


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## slavic_one

ptak said:


> to me, both "я учусь по-русски" and "я учусь на русском языке" don't make sense in russian. But i understand what you mean. You can say, "я учу английский на немецком", or "я учу математику на немецком". But it could mean that you are sitting in a german class making your english or math homework.



Ага, полял... я не подумал об этом значению, но тоже правильно!
Спасибо.


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## dustdog104

SweetCherry said:


> Язык.
> If you think in English:
> -Which languages are you studying?
> -I am studying Russian and English (language, not languages).



I know it's off topic, but since you brought it up.
This doesn't make any sense as far as I can tell.  In English we would just say 
"I am studying Russian and English"
without an assumed "language" or "languages".
If for some reason you absolutely need to use the word "language", it would be very formal and read:
"I am studying THE Russian and English languages" - plural


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## flying_spur

Ptak said:


> To me, both "я учусь по-русски" and "я учусь на русском языке" don't make sense in Russian.



I'm afraid that I don't fully agree with you! "я учусь на русском языке" can have the following meaning: "I study in Russian" in the sense that my studying programm is taught in Russian. Я имею в виду, что например в университете язык, на котором преподается курс может быть например русским или английским, и если тебя спрашивают, "на каком языке ты учишься?" ответ - "я учусь(прохожу обучение) на русском(языке)"


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## Ptak

flying_spur said:


> Я имею в виду, что например в университете язык, на котором преподается курс может быть например русским или английским, и если тебя спрашивают, "на каком языке ты учишься?" ответ - "я учусь(прохожу обучение) на русском(языке)"


"*Я прохожу обучение на русском языке*" sounds okay, but "*я учусь на русском [языке]*" does not at all, especially without context. One _can_ understand its meaning, but it doesn't mean that the phrase is okay.


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## SweetCherry

dustdog104 said:


> I know it's off topic, but since you brought it up.
> This doesn't make any sense as far as I can tell. In English we would just say
> "I am studying Russian and English"
> without an assumed "language" or "languages".
> If for some reason you absolutely need to use the word "language", it would be very formal and read:
> "I am studying THE Russian and English languages" - plural


I _did _write "I am studying Russian and English", and that is what is correct.
But what you mean is "I am studying Russian language and English language" (and not history, for example).


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## flying_spur

Ptak said:


> "*Я прохожу обучение на русском языке*" sounds okay, but "*я учусь на русском [языке]*" does not at all, especially without context. One _can_ understand its meaning, but it doesn't mean that the phrase is okay.



Spoken language isn't always gramatically correct and sounds okay but it exists and one should be aware... in order to avoid any possible misunderstanding


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## dustdog104

SweetCherry said:


> I _did _write "I am studying Russian and English", and that is what is correct.



I agreed that "I am studying Russian and English" is correct. However, your argument that in English the implied next word is "language" and not "languages" is incorrect and thus a false comparison, as I said. Unless I completely misunderstood what you were originally trying to say, I strongly disagree.



SweetCherry said:


> But what you mean is "I am studying Russian language and English language" (and not history, for example).



No, I meant what I said.

This is pretty out of place, so send me a private message if you want to argue. I'm not sure why you would want to though, since I'm a NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKER...


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## SweetCherry

dustdog104 said:


> I agreed that "I am studying Russian and English" is correct. *However, your argument that in English the implied next word is "language" and not "languages" is incorrect* and thus a false comparison, as I said. _Unless I completely misunderstood_ what you were originally trying to say, I strongly disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> *No, I meant what I said.*
> 
> This is pretty out of place, so send me a private message if you want to argue. I'm not sure why you would want to though, since I'm a native speaker...


 
A Russian, An English - a person of Russian/English nationality
Russian, English - Russian/English *language*
Not languages, or politics, or economics, or history.
So, when you say "I am studying English", you have said "I am studying English language".
If not, no one would understand what you are saying, and the phrase would be meaningless.

(I apologise for off-toppic).


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## sokol

I am writing this as a forero, but let's say halfway putting my mod hat on: 


SweetCherry said:


> So, when you say "I am studying English", you have said "I am studying English language".


Dustdog has of course a point, and it seems you do not disagree; there has only been a slight misunderstanding as far as I can see. 

One does not really imply "language" here - not in English (nor in German for that matter), because in English you refer to a language with its name only, while in Slavic languages it is quite common to add "jazyk" (and the case of using only the language name - as in "руcский" - you have a feeling that this is a "shortened" reference to the language and that "язык" should by rights follow).

So Slavic native speakers might think that it were natural in English to say "English language" - but in fact this would be very much marked and not everyday speech at all.
The additional specification with "language" is not at all necessary, it is clear by using "English" alone that the language is meant (as is the case in other Germanic languages).

Fine detail about the English way to refer to languages indeed is not quite the topic of that thread, but insofar as those fine details are relevant for the discussion they could as well be discussed.  But please focus rather on the Russian wording than the English one.

(So let's just take it easy here, there's no major disagreement, or is there? )


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## SweetCherry

1.) I am here to help and learn, and not to quarell. 
2.) The fact that someone is a native speaker does not necessarily mean he/she is right, because things can be seen from different perspectives.
Two native speakers of the same language can also disagree, or can't they?
The easiest thing is to use "I am a native speaker" as an argument, without even trying to understand what the other person wanted to say. 
3.) I was misunderstood, so I tried to explain, but without a result, so discussion is closed for me.

Cheers. 

By-the-way-Mod-note:
I'm sorry if there has been a misunderstanding, and the points of yours are of course valid; further, there are also regional varieties (BE/AE) which might influence native speaker judgements, etc.
But to discuss the part focussing on English in more detail anyway would yield much better results in English Only, where native speakers from all over the world contribute.  (And it would be leading off-topic here, so let's leave that here.)

So, point accepted, and statement taken that neither you nor Dustdog wanted to pick a quarrel.


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## Dmitry_86

Referring back to the very first question posted:



JanisPearl said:


> Hi ! I have a list of questions i have to be able to answer to,for my russian exam,and i have a doubt!
> If my teacher asks me "Какие языки вы изучаете?" , and i want to say
> "I study russian and english", should i say "я изучаю русский и англиский язык" or "языки" ? I mean, the word "language "is referred both to english and russian,so do i need to put it singular or plural?


 
I would say "Я изучаю русский и английский язык*И*". During this exhaustive discussion one of the most well-known Russian grammar experts - Rozental - was mentioned and, as it was said, according to him we have to use singular in the sentence above because both nouns mean different types of languages (homogeneous items). Probably, this is correct. But to me the plural form sounds much more natural and we usually use plural when there are two objects. At least, I would say the original sentence ONLY in plural.



Maroseika said:


> _в правой и левой руке_ (_половине, стороне_ и т. п.);


 
I completely agree with the form suggested. I suppose this phrase is a stable one and therefore it does not obey the general rule of using plural when the number of objects in a sentence exceeds one.



Maroseika said:


> _оперное и балетное искусство; _


 
I cannot comment on this version from the grammatical perspective but I would prefer to use singular as well. To tell the truth, I am not sure at all whether "искусство" is compatible with plural.



Maroseika said:


> _промышленный и аграрный переворот; _


 
Why not "перевороты"? It is also correct and sounds better to my ear.



Maroseika said:


> _учащиеся среднего и старшего школьного возраста;_


 
Again I recognize this option because this phrase is heard so frequently that we have got used to writing the noun at the end in singular. But plural might work here as well albeit a little bit awkward.



Maroseika said:


> _в старославянском__ и древнерусском книжном языке"._


 
I do not really know the intended meaning. If both adjectives refer to one and the same language described by two words then we should use the singular form. However, I think "старославянский" and "древнерусский" languages differ and one of them once replaced the other. If so, I would choose the plural form.


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## Dmitry_86

slavic_one said:


> Sorry for mistakes, wasn't concentrated enough obviosly.
> What I was thinking with "я учусь по-русски" is weather is that good expresion for "learning Russian language" or it means "I'm learning sth else, but on Russian language", same as "я учусь на русском языке"..


 
If you want to tell someone that you are currently learning some language in order to master it, for example, the English one, you should say: "Я учу русский язык" or "Я изучаю русский язык". They are both interchangeable and mean completely the same thing. 

If the idea is connected with enrolling on a course in some subject taught in another language rather than in your native one, the expressions are (either will work):

"Я изучаю предмет на русском языке"
"Я изучаю предмет, преподаваемый/читаемый на русском языке"


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## elemika

Забавно...
Попробуем изобрести что-то вроде "правила буравчика" для случая "язык-языки"?

_У меня есть русская и английская книги_.
Поскольку возможен вариант русско-английская книга, число существительного влияет на смысл фразы (_У меня есть русская и английская книга_...)

_На прилавке касная и синяя майки_ (Иначе имеем красно-синюю майку)

Но поскольку русско-английского языка нет, то в этом случае оба варианта (язык и языки, которые я изучаю), допустимы. Наверное, в устной речи чаще используется единственное число (своего рода, упрощение), на экзамене - не знаю, может, стоит употребить множественное.

Ваше мнение?


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## Maroseika

Dmitry_86 said:


> Again I recognize this option because this phrase is heard so frequently that we have got used to writing the noun at the end in singular. But plural might work here as well albeit a little bit awkward.


 
Maybe that's because this rule is "natural" and therefore people follow it in natural way? And maybe that is why plural seems you awkward? 



> However, I think "старославянский" and "древнерусский" languages differ and one of them once replaced the other. If so, I would choose the plural form.


Of course, you are right - these are two different languages. But plural sounds to me here exactly like you described before - awkward, or better say  - officialese-like.
How do you think a child would say:
Это моя мама и тетя or Это мои мама и тетя?


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## elemika

How do you think a child would say:
Это моя мама и тетя or Это мои мама и тетя?

You see, from the first sentence you can't conclude is it a child's mother with a child's aunt or a mother with some other woman...  And children often make mistakes 

I'd like to stress again that singular/plural are not always interchangable:

_У меня есть русский и английский словарь _(может означать русско-английский словарь).
_У меня есть русский и английский словари_ (два разных словаря).

Похоже, что только если невозможно соединить в одно слово два определения для данного существительного, допустимо использовать как единственное, так и множественное число:

не бывает русско-английского языка , поэтому _изучаем русский/английский язык/языки_
 Или, например, переворот:  _рассмотрим аграрный и промышленный переворот _(смысл - аграрно-промышленный, один-единственный переворот). Либо _рассмотрим аграрный и промышленный перевороты_ (смысл - их как минимум два и необязательно одновременные).

Наверное, я не очень удачно формулирую мысль.....Попробуйте сами!
Вот из левой и правой одно слово не получится, поэтому - что руки, что рука...


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## Dmitry_86

Maroseika said:


> How do you think a child would say:
> Это моя мама и тетя or Это мои мама и тетя?


 
I suppose that a child usually says this phrase in singular. At least, if I were a child now, I would ask this question without using plural. But again I must admit that I do not know exactly why. Probably, because the singular form sounds better in general in this sentence and not all the children are aware of strict grammar rules and they often make mistakes preferring easier sentences (e.g., singular instead of plural). 

Thus, my option is "Это мо*я* мама и тетя", but I do not claim that it is grammatically correct.


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## Maroseika

elemika said:


> You see, from the first sentence you can't conclude is it a child's mother with a child's aunt or a mother with some other woman...  And children often make mistakes


I dare say children never make mistakes because they feel the nature of the language. Of course I don't mean formal grammar rules - what we rae talking about here is a natural way of using the Number in such constructions.




> _У меня есть русский и английский словарь _(может означать русско-английский словарь).
> _У меня есть русский и английский словари_ (два разных словаря).


I don't see how can it mean one dictionary.
What's about this:  У меня есть англо-русский металлургический, электротехнический и химический словарь, а метрологического, лесотехнического и этимологического словаря у меня нету - зачитали.



> Или, например, переворот:  _рассмотрим аграрный и промышленный переворот _(смысл - аграрно-промышленный, один-единственный переворот). Либо _рассмотрим аграрный и промышленный перевороты_ (смысл - их как минимум два и необязательно одновременные).


Аграрный и промышленный переворот произошли в Тьмутаракани одновременно со сменой правящей династии.
Воздушный и наземный транспорт - гордость Арканара, а морской - его позор.


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## Gajda

Интересная дискуссия получилась. 

Но правильно все же "изучаю русский и английский языки". Ссылка на Розенталя хорошая, но только там рассматривается пример тесной смысловой связи определений. У нас такой нет, поэтому только множественное число. Единственное - недопустимо.


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## Andrey05

JanisPearl said:


> Hi ! I have a list of questions i have to be able to answer to,for my russian exam,and i have a doubt!
> If my teacher asks me "Какие языки вы изучаете?" , and i want to say
> "I study russian and english", should i say "я изучаю русский и англиский язык" or "языки" ? I mean, the word "language "is referred both to english and russian,so do i need to put it singular or plural?


 

in colloquial speech the both variants are definitely correct and used frequently. But as a recommendation for your exam I was first thinking "языки" would formally be the correct one, but after Maroseika's post #10 I think the singular one must be used, indeed, although... I don't think you'll lose any points at your exam by using either. 
Btw, "я изучаю русский и англиский" is also perfectly fine and will save you some time and trouble


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