# PIE *wet(1)- or *weyu- : Vata-Vayu : Odin?



## mojobadshah

The first connection is based upon the shared PIE root *wet(1)- which 
we have described as meaning "to blow, inspire, spiritually arouse".
The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture gives it a primary meaning 
of "blow," and a secondary one of "seer, poet." 
This root is believed to also be the base from which the name "Vata" 
developed.

*weyu- (EIEC gives *H2weH1yus) is attested in Lithuanian, 
Avestan, and Old Indic; there is a possible Old Church Slavonic 
cognate. I would hesitate to put a deity with this name in PIE times 
with so limited an area of attestation. *H2weH1-nt- is quite well 
attested, from Celtic to Indic, with Tocharian thrown in for good 
measure, but I'm not seeing any forms that imply any sort of 
personalization. If we can reconstruct a PIE wind god, though, it 
would make a good name for him. Watkins has "wât- Also wet-. To 
inspire, spiritually arouse. 1. Germanic *wôdaz in Old English wôd, 
insane, mad: wood(2). 2. Germanic *wôd-eno-, *wôd-ono-
, "raging", "mad", hence "spirit," name of the chief Teutonic god, 
in a. Old English Wôden, Woden: WODEN; b. Old English 
Wôdnesdæg, "Woden's day": WEDNESDAY; c. Old Norse Ôdhinn. Odin: 
ODIN. 3. Latin vâtês, prophet, poet: vatic. [Pok. uât- 1113.].......
_t seems to be widely accepted that the Vedic 'Vâta-' is the same 
god. 'Vâta-' is wind-god of sorts, or at least a theonym for the 
wind-god. 


Does any of this check out?_


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## berndf

In Germanic, the _-n-_ suffix expressing pertinence (compare Slavic possessive suffix _-ин_ as used in family names expressing pertinence) is probably crucial in the development into a theonym. So, Proto-Germanic _*Wothanaz/*Wothinaz_ probably means something like _(lord/god) of (the) seers/poets_.


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## eamp

The PIE root for "blow (of wind)" was *h₂weh₁, not *wet or the like. 
The "weju-" forms are regularly derived from this root with the noun forming derivational suffix -ju-. 
Vedic "vāta-" is generally derived from *h₂wéh₁ntos > *vaata- with vocalisation of the n, and thus direct cognate of lat. ventus, gmc. *windaz (which seems to have had a different accent though) and Hettite huwant-.
*wāt- seems to be only attested in Celtic and Germanic (if lat. vates is a Celtic loan, as often believed). Since those two were neighbouring languages, known to have exchanged vocabulary, it provides very little evidence for a PIE reconstruction. Not sure how it could have to do with the "blow" root either, because of the a-vocalism.
Woden/Odin seems to be a rather transparent inner-Germanic derivation from *wōd/wōþ- and is unlikely to be old, certainly has nothing to do with vāta-. 
In general I don't know if there is any convincing reconstruction for a god of Indo-European age besides *Diēus.


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## mojobadshah

Linguistically I can't speak to much.  You sound like you know what your talking about, but if the above sources are correct I'm just wondering if maybe its not a PIE expression but rather one that was borrowed later.  In other words there was a time probably shortly before the Indo-Iranian split when only the Ahuras/Asuras were worshiped.  Aseir may be more closely related to the Assyrian form Asura Mazash, which came after the Ahuras/Asuras only period, when the worship of proto-Vata would have been prevalent.  Maybe Ahura/Asura worship of proto-Vata-Vayu was carried to Scandinavia where it became the worship of the Aseirs including Odin the wind god.  In Iran it was the Ahura Mazda cult that denounced the Daeva cult (cf. Dayus, Tyre).  In Scandinavia it was the wind god Odin and the Aseirs that replaced the cult of Tyre (cf. Dayus, Daeva).


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## berndf

What do you mean by "Indo-Iranian split"? The split of Indo-Iranian from PIE or the split of Indo-Iranian into Indic and Iranian languages?


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## mojobadshah

berndf said:


> What do you mean by "Indo-Iranian split"? The split of Indo-Iranian from PIE or the split of Indo-Iranian into Indic and Iranian languages?



I mean before the split of Indo-Iranian into Indic and Iranian languages.  It was the Zarathushtra's reforms, hailing the Ahura Mazda, and denouncing the Daevas, that led to the Indo-Iranian split.  I would place the Ahura/Asura alone period before this period, and before the Ahura Mazda/Asara Mazash period, right before Zarathushtra's Ahura Mazda alone period.  Proto-Vata-Vayu worship probably took place after the Asura alone period when the Asura's had become polythesitic, before the Zarathushtra's Ahura Mazda alone period

In places like Greece, and India on the other hand the Daeva cult replaced the Ahuras/Asuras or old gods including Vata-Vayu who is considered an Ahura (but also a Daeva).  The Greek Ouranous' Indic counterpart is Varuna once "sovereign above all other Asuras."  Ouranous was deposed by Chronos who was deposed by Zeus (cf. Daeva, Tyre).  And in the Rig Vedas the Devas (cf. Daeva) quickly replace the Asuras.


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## aruniyan

I could see some references where _*Odin*_ is identified with *Mercury*, and the Indian word  *budh/budhan* for Mercury or wednesday looks related.


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## berndf

mojobadshah said:


> I mean before the split of Indo-Iranian into Indic and Iranian languages.


At that time, the split between whatever preceded Germanic and Indo-Iranian was certainly already ancient history. From a linguistic point of view you cannot expect any support of such a thesis.





mojobadshah said:


> In Scandinavia it was the wind god Odin and the Aseirs that replaced the cult of Tyre (cf. Dayus, Daeva).


We had this before, hadn't we? And you were told that the story you quoted there was rank nonsense. I don't understand why you repeat this here as if it were a commonly accepted fact.


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## mojobadshah

This is different.  I'm not saying Tyre comes from Tir.  I'm saying that there may have been a Proto-Vata-Odin cult after the Ahura/Asura alone period, during the period when there were many Asuras, before the Ahura Mazda/Asura Mazash period.


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## mojobadshah

aruniyan said:


> I could see some references where _*Odin*_ is identified with *Mercury*, and the Indian word  *budh/budhan* for Mercury or wednesday looks related.



Interesting.


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## berndf

aruniyan said:


> I could see some references where _*Odin*_ is identified with *Mercury*


This identification was introduced by Tacitus or at least Tacitus was undertood in such a way. It explains why _Dies Mercurii_ is called _Wednesday _in English. But not much else.


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## mojobadshah

Is the introductory thread saying that the names odin and vata are related?  And does this check out?


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## mojobadshah

The root * ane according to Joseph T. Shipley gave the Irano-Afghan _Ahura _”lord,” which is related, according to Wash Edward Hale, gave rise to several forms including the Indic _Asura _“lord,” the Latin erus- “lord,” the Celtic _Assar_, OGot. anses "demigods" and the Nordic _Aesir _“gods.”   The form was found among non-Indo-Europeans also Etruscan _Esar _“gods,” and Finno-Ugric _ezoro-_ "lord." So *ane was widespread among the Indo-Europeans and even a few non-Indo-Europeans.  Paul Theime is the one who first proposed the theory of a single Asura.  This Asura according to Theime developed into Varuna in India, Varuna's Greek counterpart Ouranos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Uranus_and_V.C3.A1ru.E1.B9.87a), and Ahura Mazda in Iran.  In India the Asura develops into a polytheism of Asuras.  

Thou over all, O Varuṇa, art Sovran, be they Gods, Asura! or be they mortals.
Grant unto us to see a hundred autumns ours be the blest long lives of our forefathers. - RV 2.27.10 (see also AV 1.10.1)


Hale has pointed out that even in the Rig Vedas, the earliest of the Vedic texts, the Asuras, the old gods, are already viewed in the pejorative sense, and come to be replaced by the Devas the new gods.     

O Brhaspati, slay as if with a buring sling-stone the heroes of the asura Vrkadvaras.  Just as you killed courageously previously, even so kill our enemy, O Indra. – RV 2.30.4 _Trans._ Wash Edward Hale

Ye have destroyed, thou, Indra, and thou Viṣṇu, Śambara's nine-and-ninety fenced castles. Ye Twain smote down a hundred times a thousand resistless heroes [ásurasya vīrā́n] of the royal Varcin. - RV 7.99.5 (and 2.30.4)

In the Avesta on the other hand it is the Daevas who become for Zarathushtra maleviolent beings and the Ahura Mazda who he exalts.

We all know that the term Aesir is akin to Skr. Asura_/_Av. Ahura.  I would presume that if there was a point of time when a proto-Aesir-Asura worship which replaced the proto-Tyre-deava worship it would have taken place when the Indo-Iranians and the Germanic were still in contact after the first PIE split when Celto-Italic-Tocharian split one way and Indo-Iranian, Germanic, ect... went the other way.  

Karen Armstrong discusses how in Greek myth Ouranous (cf. Varuna) was replaced by Chronos, who  according to M.L. West was anteceded by Zurvan "space-time" in  Irano-Afghan myth.  Ultimately Chronos was replaced by Zeus who  developed from PIE * Dayus and whose counterparts are the Devas and  Daevas of Vedic and Avestan myth and Tyre of Germanic myth.  I would presume that this last period where the *Dayus cults triumph over the *Ane cult in Greece and India must have taken place during a time when both the Greeks and the Indo-Iranians were still in close contact or during the Greco-Armenian-Aryan period.    

Armstrong and I think convention holds that if there was a monotheism to being with that man worshiped the *Dayus the "Sky-father," but I myself am of the opinion that if there was a monotheism to begin with that this god would have represented more abstract phenomenon as did most of the Asuras or Adityas "boundless ones or old gods"in the Vedas and Amesha Spentas in the Avesta.  If I'm not mistaken the root *ane is associated with life-giving and I think the prominence of the *ane among the Indo-Europeans and even non-Indo-Europeans shows that this was most likely, in my opinion, the god that was worshiped, and not a concrete concept like the sky or the sun.  Albert Pike believed the Daevas (cf. *Dayus) represented the celestial orbs, whereas Ahura Mazda represented the powers over the forces of nature.

According to Motilal Banarsidass the Assyrian form Assara Mazash, as one of the igigi, and Avestan Ahura Mazda show that Ahura Mazda was worshiped before Zarathushtra had made his reforms and this is why, according to R.C. Zaehner, Zarathushtra calls himself vaedemna “initiate” or “one who knows” (Y.28.5, 48.3) indicating that the Ahura Mazda tradition was a long-time priestly tradition by Zarathushtra's time.  The worship of Ahura Mazda/Assara Mazash would have all taken place after the there had become a plurality of Asuras and even Ahuras.  Both Mithra (Y. 2.11) and Apam Napat (Y. 1.5) are called Ahura.  But as a creator god Apam Napat could have no place in Zarathushtra's theology.  The return to the exclusive worship of the Ahura Mazda (the Vedic Varuna and Greek Ouranos) must have occurred according to Mary Settegast and others, just prior to the Indo-Iranian split giving Zarathushtra's reforms as the primary cause for the split.  Vata was then reintroduced as a yazad or angel, but one that receives the praises of Ahura Mazda, which reinforces the fact that his cult must have had a powerful following before Zarathushtra demoted him.


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## Wolverine9

Reading these articles could help clear things up: Daiva, Indo-Iranian religion, Ahura.


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## mojobadshah

Wolverine9 said:


> Reading these articles could help clear things up: Daiva, Indo-Iranian religion, Ahura.



Thanks.  Now I know who originally proposed Z was the cause of the Indo-Iranian split.  Apart from this I didn't see anything that would detract from my above reconstruction do you?  And as you can see my source for Haugs original thesis is recent and even claims is accepted by others.


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## mojobadshah

Any one know what became of the *ane  root in Latin and Celtic?


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