# mêler , mélanger les serviettes et les torchons



## pheelineerie

Original text:
Le pavillon, de style normand, se dressait à une distance suffisante de ses voisins, d'aspect moins cossu, pour démontrer que les serviettes ne se mêlaient pas aux torchons.


My attempt:
[...] to show that one must sort out the sheep from the goats.

I'm not familiar with this sheep/goat expression. Is there a better way to translate this serviette business?


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## alisonp

There certainly must be .  I don't think your sheep/goats expression is right here: there, the sorting is important, whereas I think what the original sentence is saying is that the people in the pavillon are too high-and-mighty to mix with their neighbours.  What the English expression for this is currently escapes me, though


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## archijacq

you can't compare apples and oranges


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## gliamo

archijacq said:


> you can't compare apples and oranges


Cela veut dire qu'il ne faut comparer que ce qui est comparable, ce qui est différent de ne pas mélanger les torchons et les serviettes.


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## alisonp

But surely that just means the two things are different?  Here we have a distinct superiority/inferiority situation, it seems to me.  I'm trying to come up with something with "hoi-polloi", "riffraff" or even "the great unwashed", but no success so far.


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## Kat LaQ

"[...] in order to show that napkins don't belong with dishtowels."

I really can't think of an expression in EN comparable to the serviette business.  You could say something like" to show that the servants don't mix with the masters", but I think the literal version is understandable in EN, and retains the style of the original.


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## Avignonais

EITHER
The pavilion, Norman in style, stood at a significant distance from its neighbors -- *which were* less opulent in appearance -- to demonstrate the separation of classes."

OR
The pavilion, Norman in style, stood at a significant distance from its *less opulent neighbors* to demonstrate the separation of classes."


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## boterham

Hello again,
I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me the equivalent idiom in English.
It means 'you need to separate the good from the bad', roughly.
Thanks


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## JeanDeSponde

_You've got to know what's what_


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## pyan

I don't think it found an really suitable equivalent in English.  There are lots of expressions in English about separating unlike things but they are not as judgmental as you describe.


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## boterham

Separate the wheat from the chaff.

Apparently it's the same as the sheep and goat thing.


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## boterham

So far we have 3 expressions in English :

to separate the sheep from the goats
to separate the wheat from the chaff
to compare apples and oranges (as in you can't compare a. and o.)

I'm not sure they convey the exact same meaning but it doesn't matter, I like the sheep and goats one. However I wonder how common their usage is in English ?

And thank you Jean but I was looking for something more idiomatic


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## Agent Literary

"To separate the wheat from the chaff," is the closest one in register, commonly used and definitely close in meaning, if not exact.


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## archijacq

Agent Literary said:


> "To separate the wheat from the chaff," is the closest one in register, commonly used and definitely close in meaning, if not exact.



je ne trouve pas que "séparer le bon grain de l'ivraie" correspond vraiment à "mélanger les torchons et les serviettes".


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## Agent Literary

No, in retrospect suggesting that the register matched was a mistake. I retract that comment, but still think it is a good translation.


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## wildan1

I think _don't mix up apples and oranges_ might be the best choice. No judgment on which is better; they are just so different that they don't go together.

But doesn't BE also talk about _chalk and cheese_? (not used in AE)


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## pyan

Yes, but chalk and cheese don't have any characteristics in common, and there is no judgment about superiority implied, whereas teatowels and towels are similar, but towels are "better".

"Oil and water don't mix" is another.  It means you can put them in the same container but they will separate out. Again, it does not imply superiority.


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## jamesk65

The essence of the expression seems to be cautionary and prescriptive i.e. *don't * do something and of confusing rather than selecting.  Therefore  I think the best way to convey the idea is to use the well-known apples and oranges expression or any two objects essentially so similar as to cause confusion e.g. napkins and serviettes.


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## Nicomon

Je ne sais plus trop comment j'ai abouti sur ce vieux fil, que je réanime.

Moi aussi, j'associe _Il ne faut pas mélanger/on ne mélange pas les torchons et les serviettes_ aux diverses classes sociales. À priori dans le contexte initial, bien que l'expression ait aujourd'hui un sens élargi.
Selon cette étymologie : 





> _(XVIIe siècle)_ Les nobles utilisant des serviettes de table et les domestiques des torchons, signifiait alors « mélanger les classes sociales ».





archijacq said:


> you can't compare apples and oranges


 Il est rare que je ne sois pas d'accord avec archijacq, mais il me semble qu'un plus proche équivalent serait :
_On ne peut pas comparer des choux et des carottes  / des pommes et des poires_
Au Québec, on dirait littéralement : _  On ne peut pas comparer / mêler des pommes et des oranges. _


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## wildan1

In retrospect, I think I disagree with my earlier suggestion (12 years ago!) about _apples and oranges_, since they are different types of fruit but one is not better. 

There is definitely a judgment made when comparing groups as _serviettes _vs. _torchons._


Agent Literary said:


> "To separate the wheat from the chaff," is the closest one in register, commonly used and definitely close in meaning, if not exact.


I now vote for this one. I know Archijacq posted 





archijacq said:


> je ne trouve pas que "séparer le bon grain de l'ivraie" correspond vraiment à "mélanger les torchons et les serviettes".


... but nevertheless the English expression does indeed have a strong judgment about one group being superior to the other. _"Apples and oranges"_ does not have that connotation.


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## Itisi

separate the men from the boys.


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## Nicomon

There is also this page in the WR  dictionary : Il ne faut pas mélanger les torchons et les serviettes - traduction - Dictionnaire Français-Anglais WordReference.com.

_torchons et serviettes_ makes me think of _rags and riches..._ don't ask why.

I wonder if _separate the sheep from the goats_ (boterham-post 12) isn't a closer match than _separate the wheat from the chaff_? As found googling, from Itisi's suggestion - bolding mine:


> _Separate the men from the boys_. Separate the strong from the weak, the mature from the immature, the bright from the dull, the capable from the incapable. (=)* Separate the sheep from the goats.   Equiv.: Fr. *_*Il ne faut pas mélanger les torchons et les serviettes*_. {Do not mix dish towels and hand towels}


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## wildan1

Nicomon said:


> I wonder if _separate the sheep from the goats_ (boterham-post 12) isn't a closer match


_Sheep and goats_ isn't about class--just different species, like _apples and oranges._


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## Nicomon

Not according to the second definition  on this page : separate the sheep from the goats


> Distinguish between good and bad individuals, *or* superior and inferior ones.


 And this other one from Collins :





> to pick out the members of any group who are superior in some respects.


 Hence my asking.   The links below are all from Collins.

separate the wheat from the chaff
separate the sheep from the goats
separate the men from the boys
And the entry that I quoted earlier is from the attached book :


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## petit1

Silver spoons don't mingle with pewter.


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## JClaudeK

petit1 said:


> _"Apples and oranges"_ does not have that connotation.


En français, cela correspond à "mélanger des choux et des carottes"*.*


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## Nicomon

JClaudeK said:


> En français, cela correspond à "mélanger des choux et des carottes"*.*


  Je me suis peut-être trompée de verbe, donc.    Fin du post 19. 


wildan1 said:


> (12 years ago!)


 As  I wrote...  I don't know how I ended up on this old thread. 


petit1 said:


> Silver spoons don't mingle with pewter.


  Je ne sais pas ce pensent les "natives" mais j'aime ça.


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## wildan1

> Silver spoons don't mingle with pewter.


I see the point being made, although I have never heard this expression--did you make it up, petit1?

I think a clearer comparison of better/worse might be _separate the silver spoons from the tin _(pewter is a rather appreciated metal for kitchen utensils and dishes these days; tin is definitely not!).


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## Itisi

petit1 said:


> Silver spoons don't mingle with pewter.


I have never come across this expression.


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## petit1

L'inverse aurait été étonnant, *Itisi* . 
Ce n'est qu'une de mes élucubrations. Je cherchais quelque chose dans le domaine ménager et j'ai pensé à des couverts en argent par opposition à des couverts en étain qui, de nos jours en France, n'ont plus aucune valeur marchande et autrefois distinguaient le peuple des classes plus aisées.
De la même manière les serviettes étaient faites dans un tissu plus fin que les torchons qui étaient faits de tissu plus grossier.


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## Nicomon

And here I thought petit1 had used _pewter_ based on this definition : 





> especially *: *a dull alloy with lead formerly used for domestic utensils.


 Dull metal as opposed to shiny silver, for instance. Or the fact that silver is a pure metal, while pewter is an alloy mainly composed of tin (I read 85-99 %). 





> Pewter also has a rich history in British tradition. It was used as everyday tableware before ceramics became available. It had the look of sterling silver without the cost or constant upkeep. Lower class citizens could copy the silver designs of the day and produce something affordable and lasting to them that could be easily cleaned with soap ad water.


 Si l'expression n'est pas courante... bravo pour la créativité. 

Ajout :   Nos posts se sont croisés, petit1.


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