# Celownik + się



## Roy776

Cześć wszystkim,

Chciałbym dowiedzieć się, czy jest zasada na użycie *Celownika z słowem Się*?
Na przykład:
*Wydaje mi się...
Podoba mi się*...
*Chcę mi się pić.*

Nie wiem jak to wyjaśnić inaczej. 
Z góry dziękuję wam bardzo


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## BezierCurve

Tak, niektóre bezosobowe wyrażenia tego typu ("wydaje się", "robi się" "udaje się" i in.) mogą przyjąć zaimek osobowy w celowniku (mi, ci, jej, jemu etc.) dla wskazania kogo dotyczy dana czynność czy stan. 

Czasami podkreśla się w ten sposób subiektywność wypowiedzi ("wydaje _mi_ się" jako najlepszy przykład).


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## LilianaB

Be careful so you don't use Tobie in the second person singular instead of ci. Some people use tobie, especially in Eastern dialects.


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## BezierCurve

You can still use it as emphasis or when opposed to another person though:

"Mi się podoba, a _tobie_ się nie podoba?"


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## LilianaB

Yes, as an answer to the question to whom, for example: Tobie. To sayodoba sie to tobie is incorrect or at least a sign of speaking in a dialect. I have to think about a better example, because this one can be correct in certain contexts.


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## Roy776

Ja uczyłem się użycia zaimek tak, że używam ich w formach jak "Tobie" i  "Mnie" (zamiast Mi) na pierwszej pozycji w zdaniu albo kiedy następują  po przyimkach.
Ale dziękuję wam dwóm za informacje 

(Przepraszam za odpowiedzi w języku polskim, ale jest najlepszy sposób nauki).


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## BezierCurve

> Ja uczyłem się użycia zaimek tak, że używam ich w formach jak "Tobie" i "Mnie" (zamiast Mi) na pierwszej pozycji w zdaniu albo kiedy następują po przyimkach.


I słusznie, w podanym przeze mnie przykładzie prawidłowo powinno być: "Mnie się podoba...". W mowie potocznej usłyszysz tam jednak "mi". Ale dotyczy to tylko pierwszej osoby, bo w drugiej zwykle będzie prawidłowo, czyli "Tobie".


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## LilianaB

Yes, there are a lot of nuances with mi, mnie, ci tobie. The incorrect construction I was thinking about was dla ciebie: co dla ciebie sie podoba. Some people talk like that, especially the people who speak Eastern dialects.


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## Roy776

Dobrze to wiedzieć, ale myślecie, że to naprawdę po prostu "regionalizm"? Pytam, bo kilka dni temu przeczytałem stronę o gwarze poznańskiej a, na przykład, nadmieniła zdanie "Nie idzie" jako germanizm i substytut zdania "Nie da się". Ale, pamiętam, że kilka moich przyjaciół (z Niemiec) też mówią "Nie idzie", chociaż nie są z Poznania. Ale to naprawdę może być germanizm, bo żyli tu całe ich życie.

Chcę po prostu wiedzieć, czy też będę się spotykał z tymi formami w innych regionach niż wschód. 

Strona jest taką:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwara_poznańska#pl


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## LilianaB

Yes, the same is present in Silesian. Silesian is really a dialect that has a lot of Germanizms. Nie idzie tego zrobic. It cannot be done.


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## majlo

LilianaB said:


> To sayodoba sie to tobie is incorrect or at least a sign of speaking in a dialect.



It couldn't be further from the truth. You're misleading learners again. Whether it's correct or not depends solely on the context.


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## LilianaB

Why are you picking on phrases and quote partial statements. Quote the whole post. I said it was not the best example because it could be correct in certain contexts. Add something constructive  to the forums. Tobie is not correct in certain contexts. Explain why, rather than picking on people. I did not want to edit the post because too much time had passed, so I just added that it was not the best example. Do you do the same with quoting politicians? It is called misquoting, which leads to fraud


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## majlo

Oh, it seems like I did jump the gun this time. Please, accept my apologies.


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## LilianaB

Never mind. It's OK.


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## marco_2

In Czech films you can frequently hear the phrase _To tak nejde..., _which resembles Polish _Nie idzie tego zrobić _(it is quite popular in Lesser Poland - Małopolska, in former Galicia), but still it can be German influence.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

LilianaB said:


> Yes, there are a lot of nuances with mi, mnie, ci tobie. The incorrect construction I was thinking about was dla ciebie: co dla ciebie sie podoba. Some people talk like that, especially the people who speak Eastern dialects.


My girlfriend is from Suwałki, in the northeast, near the Lithuanian border. It drives me nuts the way she and her family use _dla + Dopełniacz _(Genitive) construction where a noun in _Celownik_ (Dative) is expected.

ex: *_Powiedziałam dla mojej mamy, że ją kocham. _zamiast_ Powiedziałam mamie, że ją kocham.
or: *Napisałam dla ciebie list. _zamiast _Napisałam ci list.
_
I've never heard this kind of strange talk before and I thought it was due to the proximity to the border and thought it was some sort of Russification or Lithuanification. Whatever the reason, I hate it...


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## kknd

as i remember there are quite clear rules concerning short and long forms of personal pronouns… though i don't have any dictionary nearby to cite appropriate excerpt.


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## dn88

POLSKAdoBOJU said:


> ex: *_Powiedziałam dla mojej mamy, że ją kocham. _zamiast_ Powiedziałam mamie, że ją kocham.
> or: *Napisałam dla ciebie list. _zamiast _Napisałam ci list._



That is pretty weird.  I would be quite happy to see "do" in place of "dla".


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## majlo

I once set up a thread about this phenomenon, PolskaDoBoju. I hear it very often in Warmia and Mazury.


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## LilianaB

Hi Polska, it is not a _Lithuanizm_, because there is no such construction in Lithuanian. I am thinking about Russian, but I can't think about one either, maybe Belarusian.


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## Roy776

Może powinienem też otworzyć temat o poznańskich regionalizmach. Interesują mnie bardzo, skoro chcę się przenieść do Poznania kiedyś podczas kilka następnych lat.

Dla + Genitive is definitely not a germanism, either. Not one of the languages I know uses such a construction to introduce the indirect object.


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## LilianaB

I think it might be just a Polish construction: wrong application of prepositions. _Zrobie to dla ciebie _is correct, whereas_ powiem to dla ciebie_ is not. Some people could have just generalized the rule and applied _dla_ to other verbs.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

There is a disappearance of the Dative case in the northeast dialects. I've never heard it used once...


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## Roy776

POLSKAdoBOJU said:


> There is a disappearance of the Dative case in the northeast dialects. I've never heard it used once...



And with what construction is it replaced? Only with dla + Genitive, or another?


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## dreamlike

POLSKAdoBOJU said:


> ex: *_Powiedziałam dla mojej mamy, że ją kocham. _zamiast_ Powiedziałam mamie, że ją kocham.
> or: *Napisałam dla ciebie list. _zamiast _Napisałam ci list.
> _



That's interesting, POLSKAdoBOJU. Had I heard it, I would think of her as a foreigner trying to speak Polish. Can you think of any rationale behind it? As far as linguistics issues are concerned _(język od strony technicznej, I can't think of a proper English term)_, I have a lot of ground to make up for, so I can't even guess what is it that your girlfriend confuses.


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## LilianaB

It is very common among people from Northeastern Poland. I think they confuse _robie dla Pani_ with _powiem dla Pani_.

Zrobie to dla Pani, for example. Robie dla Pani nowe buty.


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## dreamlike

A weird thing to do... I mean to confuse those two strikingly different constructions with each other.. "Zrobić coś dla kogoś" and "Powiedzieć coś komuś"...


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## Roy776

It's not at all strange, I'd say. I can only speak for German, but there are some people who do (at least sometimes) not differentiate between the dative _Dem_ and accusative _Den_ in spoken German. It's the same with adjectives. But then again, this could just be a matter of similarity between N and M.
Anyway, it might just be that the persons who settled down in those regions originally simply misheard the phrase and kept on using the misheard version. Highly improbable, but that's how, with time, mistakes become (seemingly) right in languages.


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## majlo

Got it! http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1141034


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## LilianaB

Interesting thread. It is not a Russicism, however. There is nothing like that in Russian. Maybe in Belarusian, as I said before. I don't know Belarusian, though.


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## dreamlike

Whatever the case might be, I've never ever heard of it and I find it rather odd. I've been to places where it's used several times, but never came across it.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

It is very odd and I've only started coming across it in the last year. Can any Belorussian speakers confirm if it is a Belorussicism or not?


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## dreamlike

Do they even have access to the internet there? Well, it's certainly not as readily available as in Poland.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

Yes, they have the internet in Podlasie.  It has nothing to do with internet access. This type of construstion is also seen in bigger towns such as Suwałki. It's just their regional way of talking. Every region in Poland has an element in their speech that is slightly different from standard Polish...


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## dreamlike

You missed the point of my post. I was reffering to this:



			
				POLSKAdoBOJU said:
			
		

> Can any Belorussian speakers confirm if it is a Belorussicism or not?




I'm sure they have the internet in Podlasie


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## LilianaB

Podlasie is partially in Belarus. I am sure they have Internet there. There are Belarusian people in other counties too, so hopefully someone will come forward.


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

Oh, got yeah! I'm sure Lukashenko gives them access to about 10% of the web one hour per day.


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## dreamlike

LilianaB said:
			
		

> Podlasie is partially in Belarus.




Ooops, I guess I made a fool of myself.  To be quite frank, geography has never been my strong suit, but that's one of those things I should know. I'm eagerly awaiting any input from Belarusian people on that, too


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## POLSKAdoBOJU

Dreamlike, no you didn't. Podlasie IS in fact partially in Belarus. They call is Padliaszsza.


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## Penny93

I don't think so, in my opinion it is only Russian.


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## dreamlike

Penny93 said:
			
		

> I don't think so, in my opinion it is only Russian.




What are you reffering to, Penny? I take it that you mean the location of Podlasie. If that's the case, there is no room for discussion as far as geographical facts are concerned.

You took away from Poland a large piece of land by saying that Podlasie is "only Russian"


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## LilianaB

What is Russian?


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## Ben Jamin

Penny93 said:


> I don't think so, in my opinion it is only Russian.



Your opinion is not relevant when facts are concerned. Before you make yourself an opinion you should have knowledge first.


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