# Stand & exist



## ThomasK

I notice that the 'sta' root is very common in Dutch (and German) and often (always?) refers to existing, and to force: 
- _in staat zijn_, be capable of 
- _tot stand brengen_, to realize, to bring about (some performance, let's say)
- d_e fiets staat,_ implying it is  ready for use (whereas ligt (lies) would imply that it is not the case)

I think it is even recognizable in Latin, I think: 
- _stabilis_, stable
- s_tatus_
- _circumstance_
(I don't know how I could trace more of those, but I am convinced there are a lot more...)

I wondered whether something similar is the case in non-IE languages. Of course ours are agglutinative languages (I hope that is the right word), building words by combining a root and affixes; I do not know whether other languages can make use of some common 'stand' root or ideogram...


----------



## bearded

Hello
Actually, agglutinating languages are those languages where the affixes are not only endings with no real meaning, but originally words with a meaning of their own.  I understand that Hungarian, Turkish and many Asian languages belong to the group,  whereas IE languages are called flexive/inflected languages (at least in Italy) as they are inflected with different endings related to persons, cases etc..
The Latin words you mention are all connected to the verb 'stare' (to stay/stand/remain/exist..) which survives in Italian (stare), Spanish (estar), etc. and is indeed derived from the 'sta' stem.  You are right, many other words are formed from that (e.g. station, stationery, stand..in English / stazione, stabilire, statuto...in Italian).
Concerning non-IE languages, I can tell you that the same procedure is common in Arabic (_makaan _= place , _yumkin = _it is possible (it may have place) from the  root _mkn_, possibly connected (if I am not mistaken) with the verb _kaan = _to be.


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks for the information, BM, but then, is _kaan _both 'to be' and 'to stand' - or 'to exist'? Is 'sta' (standing) used as some kind of metaphor for existing, I mean?


----------



## berndf

I am a bit lost. All the examples you gave can perfectly be explained by the semantic field "stand" (as opposed to "lie"). I can't understand why you think any of them belong to the semantic field "exist" (as opposed to "non-exist").


----------



## ThomasK

Well, I meant that it seems to me that IE considers standing to be a metaphor for existence. Would that not be an application of Lakoff/Johnson's theory in _Living By Metaphors_?


----------



## fdb

bearded man said:


> I can tell you that the same procedure is common in Arabic (_makaan _= place , _yumkin = _it is possible (it may have place) from the  root _mkn_, possibly connected (if I am not mistaken) with the verb _kaan = _to be.



Arabic makān “place”, or basically “place where one is”, is indeed from the root k-w-n “to be”. yumkinu “it is possible” is from the root m-k-n “to be strong”. Neither of these means “to stand”


----------



## francisgranada

Hungarian:

Állni - to stand (as opposed to _lie, sit, go_)

Derived words:
állítani - to state, to setup ...
állandó - constant, permanent
állapot - state, status
állam - state (like England, Spain ...)
állomás - station
állás - standig; post, job, egagement ...
állat - animal (it's supposed, that the original meaning was something like "being", then a "living being", so this could be an example not directly referring to "stand" but rather to "be", however the details are unknown). 
etc ...

The verb _állni_ is of Finno-Ugric origin, it's proto-meaning is supposed to correspond to that of the actual meaning in Hungarian.


----------



## merquiades

Of the two verbs to be in Spanish "estar" (from stare) does not contain the notion of existing permanently, but rather positioning oneself (standing up with any metaphor possible) temporarily in space and time.  It gives the idea of status.  Remaining, existing, staying are not really expressed with "estar" in Spanish (I think "stare"/ "restare" are synomyms in Italian)

Existing and defining/ pinpointing are attributes that are given to "ser" (from sedere "to sit down" mixed with "essere")


----------



## berndf

ThomasK said:


> Well, I meant that it seems to me that IE considers standing to be a metaphor for existence.


I cannot see that. Standing is a metaphor for remaining, being firm, being in a certain situation, etc.

Of course, standing also implies existence but running, seeing, eating, sleeping, talking, .... all imply existence as well. I still can't see your point.


----------



## ThomasK

@B: I may have jumped too far. I had associated existence with remaining, being firm. But I thought standing, or the 'sta' root, implied or no, symbolised, existence. 

@M: Interesting to note that maybe 'sedere' might be a variant. But I repeat: maybe I am going too far in referring to existence as such. Maybe I should have said: vital force. I think it is at least conspicuous that 'sta' is much more common as a 'basic' root, and as such refers to standing up, being strong, ex-sist ('sist' meaning 'to stand', I now realize)... 

I have just checked in the Lakoff/ Johnson book, and I don't find standing mentioned as an ontological metaphor... But 'up' is associated with health and life and having control (p. 15). I just went a little bit further [but this is too Dutch a metaphor, I suppose... ;-)]...


----------



## bartol

Slovene:

_stajati_ - to stand
_obstajati_ - to exist

Croatian:

_stajati_ - to stand
_postojati_ - to exist

The verb for "to become" (_postajati_) is also etymologically related to it.


----------



## ThomasK

I just thought of this: *tot stand brengen *(lit.: to bring towards/ up to standing [upright]) means to create, to perform (hij heeft heel wat tot stand gebracht/ he has brought about/ performed/ created quite something - those might be feats, like creating an organisation, etc.). I think there is a German equivalent (or kind of), like : _zustande bringen/ kommen_, having the same or a similar meaning. But I must admit that in general standing refers to force, and continue standing, or something the like, though I'd like to point out again: is it a coincidence that *'exist'* contains *'sist-'*, meaning 'to stand' (as is the case in Slovene, I noticed)?

I just thought of a link between resistence and existence: must one be able to resist [all kinds of powers, such as gravity] to exist [to keep upright, with-stand gravity], i.e., to be free - and not be moved/... around like an object??? Just an idea...


----------



## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> ...  is it a coincidence that *'exist'* contains *'sist-'*, meaning 'to stand' (as is the case in Slovene, I noticed)?


I don't think it's a coincidence, rather a later "evolution" of a more concrete original meaning of the verb _existere _(< _ex _+ _sistere_) towards it's actual abstract meaning (to exist). 

In the nature, "spontaneously" we observe things and animated beings rather _standing, moving, walking, flying, etc ..._   than "abstractly existing". However, the concept of _standing _is opposed not only to _sitting/lying_ (in case of humans and animals), but also to all kinds of _moving._ Even more, a standing object/human/animal is more visible/observable as e.g. a lying one (i.e. its "existence is more evident", to say so).  As consequence, the verb "to stand" seems to be a good candidate for creating - consciously or not - secondary  abstract concepts like state, status, stability, statement, constant, existence, etc ... without the necessity to suppose a deeper/intrinsic relation between the verbs "to be" and "to stand" (in my opinion ....)

P.S.1. I don't know if you have noticed the word _állat _(post #7). This might be interesting for you, as it is not an abstract concept, not even a standing/stable being. Nevertheless, its actual meaning (animal) is surely secondary, not present in other Uralic languages.


----------



## ThomasK

Then at least we agree that 'stand' here can be considered a metaphor for existing. I think that is as far as I want to go. I think Lakoff and Johnson assume that we need such metaphors to understand (com-prendre, com-prehend) abstract realities. 

I just wanted to check to what extent the (metaphorical) parallel existed in non-IE languages, but so far we have not had replies from those... No Hungarian or Finnish-Estonian Foreros around? Or Chinese/ Japanese?


----------



## francisgranada

See my post #7 ...


----------



## OBrasilo

- bartol: Actually, _to stand_ in Slovenian is _stati_. We also have the verb _obstati_ which means sort of _to stop_. Now, _obstajati_ seems to originate as as the imperfective counterpart to _obstati_, but I'm not sure how you can semantically shit from _to be stopping_ to _to exist_. Then we have _ostati_ which means _to remain_, and _ostajati_ which means _to be remaining_. And a whole lot of other derivatives.



			
				ThomasK said:
			
		

> - _in staat zijn_, be capable of


Interesting, it seems to literally mean _to be in state of_, which we also use in Slovenian with the same meaning of _be capable of_ - _biti v stanju_. And it is found as far as Russian, _быть в состаянии_.


----------



## ThomasK

There must a reason for as we have 'tot staan brengen' (bring upto standing, but meaning causing to stop, to halt). I think in that case 'staan' is just the opposite of moving. That takes force too: to stop when one is in movement...


----------



## ger4

bartol said:


> Croatian: (trying to 'juxtapose' Latvian):
> _stajati_ - to stand - _stāvēt_
> _postojati_ - to exist - _past__ā__v__ē__t_ (also: 'to stand' [perhaps rather 'to remain/be standing for a while']; 'to last'; 'to subsist' - compare the link)





francisgranada said:


> Hungarian:
> Állni - to stand (as opposed to _lie, sit, go_)


Estonian:
- _seisma_ - 'to stand' 
- _olemas olema_ - 'to exist' ('being' + inessive suffix + 'to be' ~ 'to be in being')
- _elus püsima_ - 'to exist' ('life' + inessive sufix + 'to persevere' ~ 'to remain/perservere in life')*

* despite the literal meaning, verbs like 'to survive' or 'to subsist' are translated differently:
- _üle elama_ - 'to survive' ('over' + 'to live')(compare German _überleben_)
- _olelema_ - 'to subsist' (derived from _olema_ - 'to be')


----------



## ThomasK

So I conclude from that that no 'sta' or standing is necessary in Estonian. Is 'seisma' used in other words/ derivations?


----------



## Gavril

Finnish *seistä* / *seisoa* = "to stand". Derivatives include various words related to stopping or standing still, such as _seisahtaa_ "stop, halt", _seisaus_ "stoppage (of work, services)" and _seisova_ "stagnant", but I'm not aware of any derivatives having to do with "existence". The verb "to exist" is _olla olemassa_ (literally "to be being", just as in Estonian).

By the way:



> Actually, agglutinating languages are those languages where the affixes  are not only endings with no real meaning, but originally words with a  meaning of their own.



Agglutination is a morphological  process where an affix is consistently associated with one meaning, and  vice versa; it doesn't have anything to do with whether these affixes were once independent words. For example, the Finnish case suffix -_ssa_ can be seen as agglutinative because the meaning of "inside [noun]" is always  expressed with this suffix. The opposite of agglutination (at least in  English terminology) is "fusion".

There are no inherently agglutinative or fusional languages, but rather specific morphemes can be termed agglutinative or fusional depending on how they are applied to word stems.


----------



## ThomasK

That is something I now realize: the other (one of the other) meaning[s] of 'to stand' is '(come) to a halt', also in Dutch, as I pointed out. So I suppose existing is not always described using some kind of ('Lakoffian') metaphor. _(I have read though that Finnish does use metaphorical verbs in other cases, like understanding, if I am not mistaken. One question perhaps: can you recognise any standing in Finnish words for _sist_-words such as _assistance, resistence, insistence_? Guess not, just asking...)_


----------



## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> _One question perhaps: can you recognise any standing in Finnish words for _sist_-words such as _assistance, resistence, insistence_? Guess not, just asking...)_



There is no "stand" in any of these words as far as I know.


----------



## ger4

Adding Estonian doesn't really help either:
- assistance, help = abi
- resistence = vastupanu (vastu ~ against + panu ~ putting < panema = to put)
- insistence = pealekäimine (peale ~ beyond [in this context perhaps: further?] + käimine ~ going < käima = to go)

Edit:
- seisund = state, condition, status
- tervislik seisund = state of health (tervislik = health- [+ adjective deriv. suffix] + seisund)
- seisukord = state, condition (~ seisund) (kord = order)


----------



## ThomasK

Don't worry, I am a 'very wishful thinker' and therefore a bad scientist. ;-) I was just wondering whether this standing could somehow be kind-of universal as a metaphor for existing or things like that. It is not then, no problem...


----------



## mataripis

My Tagalog translation  for stand and exist is one word "Manatili"(stay there).But in specific cases , exist/stand- wag matinag(steadfast) is correct. It exists- umiral(prevail) sya.It stands-Tumindig (regardless of circumstances around it stands)Sya. The common early forms. Stand still is Manindigan(never compromise).


----------



## ThomasK

So here there seems to be a clear link between standing and existing, I guess, in _umiral _and _tumindig_. I am not quite sure I understand _manindigan_: where could you use that?


----------



## Gavril

We had another thread touching (partly) on this question a few years ago: 

"stand" in non-IE languages


----------



## ThomasK

Good Lord, I did not remember that, though I notice that I contributed to it... I quote something from that thread: 


> *Tayo *in Tagalog is the root word which means "to stand". If I get this correct, I can only think of the words:
> 
> matayog (noble, towering, high in rank)
> bantayog (monument)
> 
> As for *tindig*, another word for tayo, there's paninindigan (translated as commitment or conviction).
> 
> Stability= Tibay/tatag


----------



## ThomasK

> Verbs
> meg*áll*ni - to halt, stop (intrans., i.e. "self")
> ki*áll*ni - to stand out
> el*áll*ni - to desist, keep, leave off
> *áll*ítani - to sate, affirm, claim
> meg*áll*ítani - to halt, stop (trans.)
> meg*álla*pítani - to determine, "diagnose", establish
> meg*áll*apodni - to agree, to come to an understanding
> 
> _(and many other with various prefixes)_
> 
> Nouns and adjectives
> *áll*ás - job, state, position ...
> *áll*ag - consistency ...
> *áll*apot - state, status
> *áll*am - state (as in "United States")
> *áll*andó - premanent, stable
> *áll*ító - affirmative
> *áll*ítmány - predicate
> *áll*omány - substance, stock, file


This is a nice complement to a previous contribution. It looks as if a lot of the first ones have to do with stopping, whereas I can see references to existence in the second series (state, stable, firm, stock,...).

I found this concerning Hebrew : 



> מועמד moomad (coloq. muamad) = candidate
> עומד ל omed le... = is about to...
> עמוד amud = page, pillar
> עמודה amuda = column (in a book page)
> העמדה haamada = setting up
> עמיד amid = durable
> עמדה emda = post (military station), viewpoint


The idea of existing seems implied here too...


----------

