# This is a picture of John and me



## Vanest

Is there something wrong with this sentence? "This is a picture of John and me". Because when I write it in Word the automatic spelling and grammar check says that I should write "This is a picture of John and I". Which one is right?


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## desire101

John and I is CORRECT


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## desire101

it is not correct to say John and ME in English.


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## PolCas

There's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, the one that Word suggests is wrong because the pronoun "I" can't the object of a preposition.


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## Vanest

PolCas said:


> There's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, the one that Word suggests is wrong because the pronoun "I" can't the object of a preposition.



Thats what I thought. Because if I took John out of the phrase, could I say "This is a picture of I"?


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## PolCas

Really? wow... This is very surprising... So, would you say something like:

Could you take a picture of I?


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## JamesM

I'm surprised it got corrected.  I always test these "ands" and "ors" by removing one instance and checking the result.

"This is a picture of me" 
"This is a picture of I" 

To me, it should be "This is a picture of John and me."  If I'm wrong, I'd certainly like to know how to figure out what is correct.  

As a side note, there is an "over-correction" to "and I" that occurs a lot around me in Los Angeles.  I don't know if it occurs elsewhere as well.  I quite often hear "They gave the present to John and I" or "The vacation was really a delayed honeymoon for John and I".  In both these cases, I believe it should be "and me", not "and I".


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## JamesM

desire101 said:


> it is not correct to say John and ME in English.


 
This is a common misconception. When the words are in a direct object phrase - ("for me", "with me", "to me", "by me", etc.) - it's "me". If they are in the subject position - "John and I went to the play" - it's "I".

I believe that many people have been corrected and criticized for saying something like "John and me went to the play" so much that they over-generalize the rule and decide that only "John and I" is acceptable under any condition.


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## desire101

it is JOHN AND I in proper English, i cannot remember why. but it is not ME!


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## Vanest

PolCas said:


> Really? wow... This is very surprising... So, would you say something like:
> 
> Could you take a picture of I?



I´m afraid I don´t understand you. Why are you 'surprised'? I was ASKING a question, that is, can I say 'this is a picture of I'? I was confused and needed the correct phrase. I WOULDN´T say 'this is a picture of I' but I thought that maybe it was right if the spelling and grammar check says so... You don´t need to put me down just because I was confused.


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## Vanest

desire101 said:


> it is JOHN AND I in proper English, i cannot remember why. but it is not ME!



But I need to know why! Are you sure I should say "This is a picture of John and I" It sounds awful!


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## Cuerdo

i completely disagree, desire101. It would definitely be "picture of John and me." 
full props to JamesM for the explanation posted above which might be the best explanation you'll get, Vanest, without some serious research. but i say you should ignore Word in this case


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## JamesM

desire101 said:


> it is JOHN AND I in proper English, i cannot remember why. but it is not ME!


 
I'm afraid that's incorrect, desire101.  Here a few links on the web on the matter:

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/meandi

http://www.englishchick.com/grammar/grcomm.htm

http://www.mcse.ms/archive187-2004-11-1149983.html


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## Outsider

Here's a previous thread about this. 
*Vanest*, I think that PolCas meant he was surprised at the first replies you got to your question.


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## Vanest

Outsider said:


> Here's a previous thread about this.
> *Vanest*, I think that PolCas meant he was surprised at the first replies you got to your question.



Oh! Ok So it is definitely "This is a pic of John and ME" Right? Why does Word mark it wrong?


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## JamesM

Outsider said:


> Here's a previous thread about this.
> .


 
I wish I could get this search engine to work better for me. I have trouble finding things like previous threads on the matter.  If anyone can point me to some tips on how to use the search engine here, I'd certainly appreciate it. 

<Moderator note - Outsider started this thread to discuss the search feature. Thanks!>

And thanks for the link to the previous thread.


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## JamesM

Vanest said:


> Oh! Ok So it is definitely "This is a pic of John and ME" Right? Why does Word mark it wrong?


 
I believe it's simply an error in the grammar checker.  One of the links I provided had several people reporting the same problem.


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## guixols

Sorry, Desire101, but if you look in Paul Brians' book _Common Errors in English_ under "I/me/myself" (or you can google it), you'll see that JamesM is right. You can't remember why "John and I" would be correct in this context because the "rule" you're trying to think of doesn't exist.


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## Vanest

Thank you all for your help!


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## PolCas

Vanest said:


> I´m afraid I don´t understand you. Why are you 'surprised'? I was ASKING a question, that is, can I say 'this is a picture of I'? I was confused and needed the correct phrase. I WOULDN´T say 'this is a picture of I' but I thought that maybe it was right if the spelling and grammar check says so... You don´t need to put me down just because I was confused.



Oh, you don't understand my post because it wasn't addressed to you.    I was replying to the guys who said "of John and me" was wrong.  You and I replyed almost at the same time and your message got in before mine.


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## Outsider

*JamesM*, please click here.


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## MissFit

I teach high school students (and their teachers) how to use MS Word.  It has been my experience that the grammar checker is frequently wrong--sometimes very, very wrong.


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## Vanest

PolCas said:


> Oh, you don't understand my post because it wasn't addressed to you.    I was replying to the guys who said "of John and me" was wrong.  You and I replyed almost at the same time and your message got in before mine.


Yes, I realize this! Sorry! Sometimes people on these forums are kind of rude when a person doesn´t understand something... But, on the other hand, I guess I was a little bit to 'touchy'! Ok, thank you and no hard feelings!


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## Vanest

MissFit said:


> I teach high school students (and their teachers) how to use MS Word.  It has been my experience that the grammar checker is frequently wrong--sometimes very, very wrong.


Mmmmm, that explains a lot. And here I´ve been paying trying to pay attention to it all the time! I won´t rely on it anymore! Someone should inform Microsoft about this...


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## estefanos

Vanest said:


> Thats what I thought. Because if I took John out of the phrase, could I say "This is a picture of I"?



"...picture of John and me" is correct, as is your analysis.  

"John & I went to the market"    Because I is the subject.
"Bobby invited John and me"      Be cause me is an object.

"Bobby invited I" is absolutely wrong, and this is the test to use in these situations.  

Sorry if I sound dogmatic.  Don't mean to, but I'm rushing because I need to go to work. 

Saludos a todos,
E.


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## bartonig

estefanos said:


> "...picture of John and me" is correct, as is your analysis.
> 
> "John & I went to the market"  Because I is the subject.
> "Bobby invited John and me"  Be cause me is an object.
> 
> "Bobby invited I" is absolutely wrong, and this is the test to use in these situations.
> 
> Sorry if I sound dogmatic. Don't mean to, but I'm rushing because I need to go to work.
> 
> Saludos a todos,
> E.


 
The controversial use of me / I is when the pronoun is neither subject nor object as in:

_It is I / me._


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## Vanest

bartonig said:


> The controversial use of me / I is when the pronoun is neither subject nor object as in:
> 
> _It is I / me._



In the case that you bring up, which one is correct? If I ring someones doorbell and they ask: "Who is it?" should I say "It´s me" or "it´s I"?


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## Outsider

Historically, "It is I" is the correct form, but barely anyone ever says that anymore. "It is me" has become the common way to speak -- at least in English.


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## bartonig

I'd say _it's me_ or simply _me_. You could say _it's I_ but definitely not _I_.


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## Vanest

Ok! Thank you Bartonig and Outsider!


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## JamesM

Outsider said:


> *JamesM*, please click here.



Thanks, Outsider.


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## panjandrum

This is a very popular topic that appears very frequently here.
Brave readers might choose to check out:
*Than me or than I?; than him or than he?; etc, etc*


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## Iona

I believe it is how you see yourself .If you consider yourself the main  subject it is 'John and I' ,but if you consider John to be the  subject ' John and me'.I have often heard the latter at the end of the  BBC News  'Goodbye from  Moira  and me' , which means 'Goodbye from Moira and goodbye from me ' . 
As a child I was taught that this was incorrect but it seems usage is changing


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## Outsider

Iona said:


> I believe it is how you see yourself .If you consider yourself the main  subject it is 'John and I' ,but if you consider John to be the  subject ' John and me'.


There is no verb in that phrase, so how can there be a subject?


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## Zob

ABSOLUTELY, DEFINITELY, INCONTROVERTIBLY... *ME!*


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## Iona

Outsider said:


> There is no verb in that phrase, so how can there be a subject?



  Even if not stated, the verb  is implicit  in the sentence . 
 (Here is a/ This is a)   goodbye from X and Y. 
 The same situation can be observed in The Beatles song (This comes) ' with  love from me to you '.I expect there are plenty of other examples .


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## Outsider

I would say you use "me" in that phrase because of the preposition "from". After a preposition, you must use the objective form of the pronoun.


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## Iona

Yes Outsider .Of course you are right .In retrospect I can see my example was not a good one .I should have used 
 ' John and I are having a party' /   'John and me  are having a party '.


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## mgarizona

bartonig said:


> The controversial use of me / I is when the pronoun is neither subject nor object as in:
> 
> _It is I / me._


 
This question only applies to the verb "*to be*." Evidently in Latin (or maybe Greek, can't remember) their verb for 'to be' takes a nominative on both sides of the 'equation': I am I, he is he, It is I, etc. 

At some point someone decided that English should follow suit and we were given this rule. Myself, I find it cumbersome and feel perfectly comfortable ignoring it.

But my point is, it does not have any bearing on sentence construction involving any other verb.


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## Outsider

mgarizona said:


> This question only applies to the verb "*to be*." Evidently in Latin (or maybe Greek, can't remember) their verb for 'to be' takes a nominative on both sides of the 'equation': I am I, he is he, It is I, etc.
> 
> At some point someone decided that English should follow suit and we were given this rule. Myself, I find it cumbersome and feel perfectly comfortable ignoring it.


I don't think that was it. I've never confirmed it, but I believe ancient English preferred "It is I", as well. The change to "It is me" may have actually been due to the influence of French, where "C'est moi" is perfectly correct.


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## englishman

Outsider said:


> I don't think that was it. I've never confirmed it, but I believe ancient English preferred "It is I", as well. The change to "It is me" may have actually been due to the influence of French, where "C'est moi" is perfectly correct.



You're right: historically, we said "It is I", but that sounds very formal (or even ridiculous) these days, though it isn't entirely dead. However, I would rather say:

"It is I who corrected him" 

than

"It is me who corrected him"

When you add a few more words, the modern form sounds slightly wrong, to my ears at least.


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## Zob

To think that all this fuss started out because some kid (probably)misinterpreted or misapplied the rule that you don't say "You and me are going to the movies" but "You and I...". Ever since, it has been assumed that the "you and me" combination can _never _be correct, which is why we are forever hearing people say "between you and I", "for you and I", and so on -- all of which give me apoplexy each time I hear it. 

I think it was during the first Iraq war that a CNN reporter said live on air, as shrapnel was bouncing off their equipment, something along the lines of "I think that was meant for I". He was probably the kid who started it all...


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## broud

> I don't think that was it. I've never confirmed it, but I believe ancient English preferred "It is I", as well. The change to "It is me" may have actually been due to the influence of French, where "C'est moi" is perfectly correct.



Yeh, you are completely right about the "Ancient English" usage. I'm glad to read that because many foreros state that "It is I" is some kind of "latinized English" that grammarians try to impose.

Extracted from  "E-Intro to Old English":   
Complement.The complement (the word on the other side of  a copula or "linking verb," usually "to be") is always in the nominative. In this sentence:
Sēo sunne is swīðe _brād_
 [The sun is very _broad_]​So, the preference for the "object case pronoun" in English nowadays is just an example of language evolution. Nothing about the evilness of grammarians who invent rules to modify the language according to obscure purposes.

Please, feel free to correct my mistakes. Someday I will write correct English - I hope.


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## Zob

I have to say that I'm not convinced by this "Latinised English" argument. For one thing, it is surely unarguable that "me" is the accusative form of the first person singular pronoun. The accusative, or objective, form is required when it appears as a direct object ("he hits me") or indirect object ("he gives it to me"). In the expression "it is I" there is no transitive verb involved and therefore the "I" is neither a direct nor indirect object. Strictly speaking, "it is I" is merely a shortened form of "it is I who...", and surely no one would say -- with any pretentions to speaking properly, that is -- "it is me who...".

On a lighter note, I still clearly remember a sit-com on UK television many years ago, in which one of the cast responded to the telephone enquiry: "Is that Mr Smith of ABC Enterprises? with "This is he of it". As a self-confessed, card-carrying pedant of long standing (probably something to do with being a 'foreigner' and starting to learn English only at the age of seven), that appealed to me very much!


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## govolsfraz

Look at it like this would you say this is a photo of I? No you would say this is a photo of me. Adding John to it doesn't change anything. The subject is the photo, so you are correct This is a picture of John and me.


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## AlmostMelchior

Vanest said:


> Is there something wrong with this sentence? "This is a picture of John and me". Because when I write it in Word the automatic spelling and grammar check says that I should write "This is a picture of John and I". Which one is right?




'Of' requires 'me'. No exceptions!


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