# I/me, he/him: Than me or than I?; than him or than he?; etc, etc



## Outsider

I know that after a preposition one should use "him", not "he", but I never know whether the comparative word "than" is considered a preposition. So, should I say: "I am older than him" or "I am older than he"?  

A third sentence, just to muddy the waters: "I am older than *he* is". I think this one is right.


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## Rebecca Hendry

You should say "*I am older than him*".  

"*I am older than he*" is not correct.  

"*I am older than he is*" is absolutely fine too.


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## gotitadeleche

Rebecca Hendry said:
			
		

> You should say "*I am older than him*".
> 
> "*I am older than he*" is not correct.
> 
> "*I am older than he is*" is absolutely fine too.




Rebecca, Are you sure of this? Although "older than him" is commonly used, I think it is actually incorrect. I don't have access to my grammar books right now to check, but I believe that "older than he" is just a shorter way of saying "older than he is" and is the correct way of saying it. 

"That girl is taller than her."   
"That girl is taller than she (is tall)"   

This is how I remember learning it.


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## Thomas1

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Rebecca, Are you sure of this? Although "older than him" is commonly used, I think it is actually incorrect. I don't have access to my grammar books right now to check, but I believe that "older than he" is just a shorter way of saying "older than he is" and is the correct way of saying it.
> 
> "That girl is taller than her."
> "That girl is taller than she (is tall)"
> 
> This is how I remember learning it.


I also though like you gotitadeleche and it seems to me it is correct to say "That girl is taller than she (is tall)"


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## suzzzenn

Hi, 

I think, once again, we are looking at a good example of where the formal rule differs from common usage. In formal English, the subject pronoun follows _than._ In common usage, many (if not most) English speakers use the object pronoun. 

 I am older than he. (correct formal usage)
 I am older than him (common informal usage)

Strictly speaking the second one is not considered to be correct by the grammar police. I personally always say "older than him", "older than he" doesn't feel right. 

Susan


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## Outsider

Thanks to all that have replied so far.  
What is the grammatical classification of the word "than" in those sentences, by the way?


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## languageGuy

"Than" is a subordinating conjunction, introducing an adverbial clause.

The two members of the comparison are most commonly of the same grammatical form. In your example, two clauses (the latter of which may be contracted in various ways). Also common two substantives, two pronouns, two infinitives, two adjectives, two adverbs, etc.


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## Outsider

Thank you very much!  
So, if I understand well, "I am older than he" is considered preferable in traditional grammar because this sentence is understood as a short form of "I am older than he *is*", right?

"I am older than he" = "I am older than he (is)."


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## languageGuy

Outsider said:
			
		

> Thank you very much!
> So, if I understand well, "I am older than he" is considered preferable in traditional grammar because this sentence is understood as a short form of "I am older than he *is*", right?
> 
> "I am older than he" = "I am older than he (is)."


That is correct.


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## suzzzenn

Thank you very much!  
So, if I understand well, "I am older than he" is considered preferable in traditional grammar because this sentence is understood as a short form of "I am older than he *is*", right?

"I am older than he" = "I am older than he (is)."

Hi Outsider, 
Right! The shortened form is what causes the problem.  Because complementizers, or subordinating conjunctions,  introduce clauses, when the verb is removed, it feels wrong. Speakers analyze _than_ as a preposition (which it is not) and use the object pronoun. 

Susan


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## dindon

<<Moderator Note:
This thread consists of three threads on the same topic that have been merged.
The first: *"More ___ than me" or "More ___ than I"? *from August 2005 starts here.
The second: *"You and me" or "you and I"?? *from May 2006 starts at post #79.
The third: *Need smart answer* from July 2006 starts at post #102.

As you can see, there is a great deal of discussion on this apparently simple topic.
Good luck to all who venture further 

Panjandrum>>


This is just something that I have been curious about. If you are comparing two things, for example, if you are saying "John is more serious than [first person pronoun]" would the first person pronoun be 'I' or 'me'?

My mother, and English teacher, insists that it should be 'I', her logic being that at the end of the sentence there is an implied part: "John is more serious than I [am]."

To me, this sounds strange, and I have never heard it said this way. Anyone know who is right?


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## Gordonedi

I agree with your Mother and English teacher.  In the sentence you quote, the "am" is implied, which dictates that the pronoun be "I" and not "me".

You're correct too, though.  It does sound strange, and in general conversational usage the word would be "me".

Compare the three sentences :
"John is better than I am at painting."
"John is better than I at painting."
"John is better than me at painting."

To my ear, versions 1 and 3 sound OK, but 2 is definitely out.  Perhaps the "rule" only applies at the end of a sentence.


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## panjandrum

I am not convinced.

Would you say that John is bigger than I?
I definitely wouldn't.
So why should I say that John is better than I, or John is more serious than I.
For the moment, until unless someone proves us both wrong, I'm with dindon.

By the way, welcome to WordReference, dindon.


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## timpeac

"to be", when viewed under the rules of Latin grammar, is a copular verb which you can think of as an equals sign. So it equates subject with subject, and object with object.

So according to this rule you should say

John (subject) is bigger than I (subject).
John hits Paul (object) harder than me (objecet) (= harder than John hits me)
John (subject) hits Paul more than I (subject) (= more than I hit Paul)

However this "rule" is constantly broken in English where we use "me" as a disjunctive form (ie the form used after a proposition (from me), or a "pointing form" (eg "it was John, Dave and me)).

So I would say that your mother and teacher are correct if they believe it is relevant to analyse the grammar of English under the framework of Latin. If they believe this is unreasonable, and it is more important to give it its own framework which reflects usage then I would say they are wrong.

Pan - I don't think that "John is bigger than I" sounds any worse (or indeed better) than "John is better than I". Both would be considered correct under this traditional view, and both would be royally ignored by the majority of English speakers.


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## GenJen54

I found the following from the Rutgers "Andromeda" English Grammar Website and _The Guide to Grammar and Style _by Jack Lynch_._

It's the quickest substitution I could find since my style books and old ESL text books are in storage. Let the debate begin...

Than I _versus_ Than Me.

_Than_, as used in comparatives, has traditionally been considered a conjunction; as such, if you're comparing subjects, the pronouns after _than_ should take the "subjective case." In other words, "He's taller than _I_," not "He's taller than _me_"; "She's smarter than _he_," not "She's smarter than _him_." If, on the other hand, you're comparing direct or indirect objects, the pronouns should be objective: "I've never worked with a more difficult client than _him_." 

There are some advantages to this traditional state of affairs. If you observe this distinction, you can be more precise in some comparisons. Consider these two sentences: 

He has more friends _than I_. (His total number of friends is higher than my total number of friends.)
He has more friends _than me_. (I'm not his only friend; he has others.)
The problem, though, is that in all but the most formal contexts, "than I" sounds stuffy, even unidiomatic. Most people, in most contexts, treat _than_ as a preposition, and put all following pronouns in the objective case, whether the things being compared are subjects or objects. "He's taller _than me_" sounds more natural to most native English speakers. 

(Mods, please let me know if this is inappropriate and I will gladly remove it and/or paraphrase the text to fit the WR formats.)


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## panjandrum

Point of information.


			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> So I would say that your mother and teacher are correct...


I think you will find that dindon's mother *is* his teacher. Certainly that is implied by his very careful punctuation





			
				dindon said:
			
		

> My mother, and English teacher, insists...


 
Umm.. ducking the point of the thread for the moment.  Still not convinced.


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Point of information.
> I think you will find that dindon's mother *is* his teacher. Certainly that is implied by his very careful punctuation


 
Well I apologise and so do I (so do me?).


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## lsp

What a genuine surprise. I vote for "I" and it doesn't sound odd to me. I thought I'd read a slew of posts saying the same. Those examples you all opted for with "me" sound odd. I must have been taught by the same person who taught dindon's mom, or dindon and I were switched at birth.


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## aryngabriel

I also agree and cast a vote for "I". It doesn't sound funny to me, but as one of the other replies pointed out, at least in AE, it could sound a bit stuffy.


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## panjandrum

I am still not convinced.
I simply cannot hear myself ever saying:
"John is bigger than I."
"Bill is better than I."
"Jennifer is prettier than I."
"Amy has curlier hair than I."
This is just not going to happen in the real world - is it?

So, either we get around the problem (if we feel it to be a problem) by changing the structure of the sentence, or we say the entirely normal versions of these sentences that end with "... than me."

But this is WRONG!

Without thinking too hard, I suggest that I resolve this by not using any construction like this in writing, but I happily use the conventionally-accepted incorrect version in speech.


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## Nick

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Without thinking too hard, I suggest that I resolve this by not using any construction like this in writing, but I happily use the conventionally-accepted incorrect version in speech.


Just add the verb onto the end. Heck, add the verb in the middle even! It really doesn't make it any longer.
He's taller than I *am*.
I'm quicker than she *is*.
We go much more often than they *do *to the train station.
Old Mrs. Gribb longs to be as young as I *am*.

But what about this? Is it correct with "me"? You can't say "I am", so could "I" really be correct?
Sarah wishes she were younger than *me*.


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## Aupick

Ah, it's a funny world. I grew up being rapped over the knuckles for saying things like 'Me and Dan are going to the shops.' I thought it was a universal tendency for English speakers to want to replace 'I' with 'me' in such cases. I thought 'Dan and I' and 'you and I' type structures always sounded stuffy, even if they are correct. 

Then I went and lived in the US for a few years where I noticed, first, that Americans don't say 'Dan and me' and 'you and me' instead of 'Dan and I' and 'you and I', so they must be more in touch with their grammar than Brits; and, second, that they tend to say 'Dan and I' and 'you and I' where they should say 'Dan and me' and 'you and me', so they're not grammar gods after all. I've often heard Americans say, for example, 'Between you and I, I think he's nuts' or 'For you and I sitting here that's easy to say'. I've _even_ heard 'Then we'll go over to Mike and I's house and grab a bite to eat' (name changed to protect identity).

So I think ideas about what sounds stuffy and what might be said are yet another thing that varies across the Atlantic.


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## timpeac

Judging from the above we have a clear AE/BE split with "I" being viewed as normal, if perhaps a bit stuffy in AE, and certainly stuffy if not a plain assault on the ears in BE.

Pan - I am a bit surprised by the "But this is WRONG!" from you - that's rather prescriptive.

It is neither right or wrong, it just is. It is certainly "wrong" if you use Latin rules to analyse English. However, if you like to have a rule to peg the usage on you can just view it as a disjunctive pronoun (the vocative, or as I like to say the "pointing" form). 

Aupick - yes it drives me up the wall (inside, outside I am an oasis of calm ) when I hear phrases like "between you and I". To me it just sounds like people who are pedantic enough to care about not saying "me" when Latin wouldn't like it, but ill-informed enough not to know when it should and should not be used.

Oh- I seem to have woken up in a bit of a bad mood - better go and think happy thoughts for a bit...


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## panjandrum

I have been puzzled by this.
I can't hear myself say "He is taller than her."
I can't hear myself say "He is taller than she," either.
And why does this discussion seem to be covering very unfamiliar ground?
After much thought, and reading these posts, I have come up with two points.
(1) I think I complete the sentences - even in normal conversation. (Thanks Nick - your suggestion) For example, I would say "He is taller than she is."  But would I say "Bill is uglier than I am"?  Probably not.  I think I would probably lapse into "..uglier than me." 
(2) The use of "me" in sentences such as "John is more serious than me," is so common that it runs through my ear smoothly, whereas the uncommon, "John is more serious than I," sounds clunky.

Sorry, I was mulling over this while others were posting....



			
				timpeac said:
			
		

> Pan - I am a bit surprised by the "But this is WRONG!" from you - that's rather prescriptive.


Another apology - I meant, when I wrote that, "But to my surprise, everyone here says this is wrong!"


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## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Another apology - I meant, when I wrote that, "But to my surprise, everyone here says this is wrong!"


 
Ah OK! I thought it was a surprising thing for you to say.


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## Nick

panjandrum said:
			
		

> The use of "me" in sentences such as "John is more serious than me," is so common that it runs through my ear smoothly, whereas the uncommon, "John is more serious than I," sounds clunky.


Completely agreed.

We'll never switch to using I, just like we'll never switch to the metric system.


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## duder

Nick said:
			
		

> Just add the verb onto the end. Heck, add the verb in the middle even! It really doesn't make it any longer.
> He's taller than I *am*.
> I'm quicker than she *is*.
> We go much more often than they *do *to the train station.
> Old Mrs. Gribb longs to be as young as I *am*.
> 
> But what about this? Is it correct with "me"? You can't say "I am", so could "I" really be correct?
> Sarah wishes she were younger than *me*.



I agree with this, Nick. "He is taller than I" sounds a little strange to me even though I am familiar with the reasoning behind it, and once you get past the first person forms, the subject pronouns sound even stranger (for example, I find "He is taller than she" just plain odd). "He is taller than me" is definitely more acceptable, but I usually just add the appropriate verb. 

And now, a little chuckle with this I/me usage:
http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=07302003


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## carrickp

I believe English speakers use "me" in these comparisons because the "than" feels as if it should force the objective case -- even though it's really being used as a conjunction. This is a instance (and not a unique one) in which the language is evolving away from a strict grammatical usage and there's really nothing any of us can do about it. For people learning English it's just an exception that must be learned. As I say, all this is only my opinion.


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## Eugens

I found this sentence in a text that is an example of the ones given in the FCE examinations:  
"Many of them are in the same situation as me, so we have lots to talk about."

Shouldn't it be in this sentence too:"Many of them are in the same situation as I (am)"? Is the meaning of the sentence modified when the case of the pronoun is changed, here as well?


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## timpeac

Eugens said:
			
		

> I found this sentence in a text that is an example of the ones given in the FCE examinations:
> "Many of them are in the same situation as me, so we have lots to talk about."
> 
> Shouldn't it be in this sentence too:"Many of them are in the same situation as I (am)"? Is the meaning of the sentence modified when the case of the pronoun is changed, here as well?


 
10 Goto message 13, paragraph 3
20 Read message
30 Goto next message
40 If message = 30, stop
50 Goto 20

(just had an introductory course to visual basic - not very good at it yet!! )


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## Eugens

Ok. Sorry. (Don't get angry!) I just wanted to check whether it happened the same with "as". So, by what I understand the two forms are correct and they mean the same. (?)


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## timpeac

Eugens said:
			
		

> Ok. Sorry. (Don't get angry!) I just wanted to check if it happened the same with "as". So, by what I understand the two forms are correct and they mean the same. (?)


 
I'm not getting angry Eugens, just having a joke!! Sorry, I probably should have put a smiley with the message. Here have 3!   

Tim


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## Eugens

Oh! That's a relief!!! Thanks for everything, Tim!


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## timpeac

Eugens said:
			
		

> Oh! That's a relief!!! Thanks for everything, Tim!


 
In answer to your question - I think that both forms are fine, and that you are likely to hear the "me" form more often. However, there is a not-insignificant body of people who believe that the "me" form is wrong. If you are writing an exam, and have a pedantic teacher for example, you may wish to avoid it. No, scrap that - Don't let the fascists get you down, brother - stick to the "me" form!


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## cuchuflete

When it comes to grammar, you are all smarter than me.
Sounds ordinary and correct.

When it comes to grammar, you are all smarter than I.  
This sounds stilted and contorted and flat out ridiculous!

Yet....

She is bigger than me...  Ok, average, no issues.

She is bigger than I....  Sounds very formal but not incorrect or awkward.  It's sufficiently uncommon in everyday speech that I would notice it.   

It's not a BE/AE think, I think...Popular usage is the same, preferring me, while we differ slightly in how formal and odd we perceive I to be.  

Can anyone tell me why the "I" form seems ok in some contexts, and so strange in others?


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## modgirl

You are all smarter than me am.  

That's why "me" is wrong (but used very colloquially!)

Again, the wrong grammar is used so often that the correct grammar seems wrong.  Sigh.....


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## modgirl

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Can anyone tell me why the "I" form seems ok in some contexts, and so strange in others?


 
Sure, it's all a matter of what we're using to hearing.   For someone who grew up hearing Coca-Cola referred to as _soda_, hearing it called _pop_ sounds strange.  And vice versa.


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## timpeac

Jad said:
			
		

> Okay then well it looks like it's becoming the naturally arising fashion to use _me_ in this way in English.


 
Not becoming, always was - 

ANGELO	Charges she more *than* *me*?
Measure for Measure, W Shakespeare.


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## Jad

timpeac said:
			
		

> ANGELO    Charges she more *than* *me*?
> Measure for Measure, W Shakespeare.


 
Gosh well that makes me wonder how the other rule came about at all then!


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## timpeac

Jad said:
			
		

> Gosh well that makes me wonder how the other rule came about at all then!


 
Me too mate! (I also old chum? )

That really is a topic for a new thread, and I can think of many reasons, but I think the most likely is that Latin was for a long time held in huge esteem, and so it was assumed that any usages that were more like how Latin worked were in some way "better".


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## panjandrum

I feel another recapitulation of my rules statement coming on.
Unfortunately, I have no idea where I left it the last time.
In summary, it said that the apparent rules of English grammar are not rules at all. They are a simplified codification of what was at one time the accepted manner of speech. Being simplified, they did not allow for lots of exceptions that were entirely acceptable.
These simplified rules worked their merry way through an increasingly didactic education system until pedants everywhere insisted that they were the one and only true faith for the English language.
BE-speakers are freeing themselves from all the inhibitions that these apparent rules created. But it is still very difficult for non-natives to understand how we can break what appear to be rules with such gay abandon.
To which I replied once, or possibly twice before, that there is no problem. Follow those rules as guidance until you have been reading and writing English to an acceptable standard for about 25 years. Then you can forget all the rules 

I wonder where I put the last version of this


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## modgirl

timpeac said:
			
		

> Charges she more *than* *me*?
> Measure for Measure, W Shakespeare.


 
Shakespeare also said, "Woe is me," which is completely wrong grammatically! In fact, an author even wrote a book entitled "Woe is I" about grammar and usage, which are not interchangeable terms.


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## modgirl

Jad said:
			
		

> Okay then well it looks like it's becoming the naturally arising fashion to use _me_ in this way in English.


 
In spoken colloquial English, it is frequently used.  However, for any serious writing, I'd stay away from it.


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## SusieQ

At the moment I do not have any of my grammar books with me, but as I remember from all my grammar lessons, both ways are correct. It just depends on the context and what you are trying to say:

He speaks to her more than me. (Here I am saying that he does not speak to me as much as he speaks to her).
He speaks to her more than I. (Here I am saying that I do not speak to her as much as he speaks to her).

See the difference? You can say it both ways but it means two different things.

When I get home I will look for my grammar books to find the rule used by our teacher, but as it all, it varies from place to place.


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## timpeac

modgirl said:
			
		

> Shakespeare also said, "Woe is me," which is completely wrong grammatically! In fact, an author even wrote a book entitled "Woe is I" about grammar and usage, which are not interchangeable terms.


 
I don't think it is wrong grammatically. To tell you the truth I don't even know what you mean by "it is wrong grammatically". There is no absolute truth about grammar, just usages that are generally accepted or not. You can say "this is wrong legally" because it breaks a law (whether or not you agree with that law is beside the point). There are no grammatical absolutes that a sentence has to adhere to.

In all seriousness, I think "woe is me" is fine. Personally I view "me" as the disjunctive form of I, and so quite the right word to use here. It is obviously a flowery phrase in the first place, but "woe is me" seems to me as correct as "woe is Paul" and much better than "woe is I" (surely this would be "woe am I" in any case).


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## modgirl

timpeac said:
			
		

> To tell you the truth I don't even know what you mean by "it is wrong grammatically". There is no absolute truth about grammar, just usages that are generally accepted or not.


 
I certainly respect your opinion, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to find English professors and professional writers who agree with you. 

Usage is literally how we use the language. Grammar is a set of rules that are used to construct sentences. There are rules of grammar. But, like much of society, the rules certainly change. I could say, "Me no like apples," and if everyone around me started adopting that style, then it would be colloquial usage. However, me is an object pronoun, not a subject pronoun. Thus, my sentence is grammatically incorrect according to the current rules.

"Woe is me" uses a linking verb, so the pronoun used should be a subject pronoun. That is correct grammar. However, as it has been discussed, that isn't always the case for actual usage.

E.g. _This is she_. (She is it) One would (hopefully!) never say _Her is it_ (it is her).


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## Tisia

Dear grammar says:

In writing:
John is taller than I am.

But orally:
John is taller than me.


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## timpeac

modgirl said:
			
		

> I certainly respect your opinion, but I think you'll be hard-pressed to find English professors and professional writers who agree with you.
> 
> Usage is literally how we use the language. Grammar is a set of rules that are used to construct sentences. There are rules of grammar. But, like much of society, the rules certainly change. I could say, "Me no like apples," and if everyone around me started adopting that style, then it would be colloquial usage. However, me is an object pronoun, not a subject pronoun. Thus, my sentence is grammatically incorrect according to the current rules.
> 
> "Woe is me" uses a linking verb, so the pronoun used should be a subject pronoun. That is correct grammar. However, as it has been discussed, that isn't always the case for actual usage.
> 
> E.g. _This is she_. (She is it) One would (hopefully!) never say _Her is it_ (it is her).


 
But modgirl, you say there are "rules of grammar" and yes there are, but they are not like rules of law as you yourself say they are in constant flux, they are more like "personal preferences of grammar". Why do you think that a linking verb should take a subject? It doesn't in French for example so by "that is correct grammar" you mean "that is correct grammar according to some person". If enough people started saying "me no like apples" then you would simply say that "me" had become a subject pronoun.

Now it is certainly a different issue, and an important consideration to say "if you say "it was me" instead of "it was I" in a business letter then the person reading it may not be impressed". However saying "it was I" is no more correct than "it was me" than "wearing a suit" is more correct than "wearing jeans".


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## modgirl

If this will help, page 147 of the _Chicago Manual of Style_, 15th edition, says:

"Grammar consists of the rules governing how words are put together into sentences. These rules, which native speakers of a language learn largely by osmosis, govern most constructions in a given language. The small minority of constructions that lie outside these rules fall mostly into the category of idiom and usage."


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## modgirl

timpeac said:
			
		

> Why do you think that a linking verb should take a subject?


 
An object receives the action.

Give the book to _me_. 


A linking verb gives a state of being as opposed to an action.

The *caller* was *he*. *H*e was the *caller*. There is no action being received. Linking verbs usually describe something or someone.

This isn't a great site, but it explains how to choose an object or subject pronoun:

http://www.myenglishteacher.net/linkingwordsandpronouns.html


If you have an academic source that states it's okay to use an object pronoun as a subject, I would be very interested to see it.


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## modgirl

Whoops, the middle part of the link after the "teacher dot net slash" is:  _linkingwordsandpronouns_ and then a dot and the html.


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## timpeac

I don't think I will easily find an academic link to say that using an object as a subject is ok - but this is because such academic sources would be descriptive rather than prescriptive (and so may well say something like "it is very common to hear phrases such as "it is me" where "to be" acts like a normal verb taking an object). I agree - I do not think any prescriptive grammarians are going to prescribe "it is me".

By the way, if it gives more comfort to have reasonable grammatical explanations for usages  you could view the "me" in "it is me" as a disjunctive pronoun rather than an object pronoun then there is no grammatical anomaly. Remember, the usage comes first and the explanation as to why it is so second!!


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## panjandrum

What we have here is a major AE/BE difference.
Those of us from the old country do not feel the same compulsion to look for rules, or to unthinkingly follow the particular set that we have found, today.
Such blind obedience we leave to relative newcomers.

You see, English is much more complicated than any simplistic set of rules.  Whatever your context, there is an accepted use of language. You bend or break that usage at your peril. Unwritten laws are much more constraining than those that are written.

English has evolved. Native speakers who use the language much more than for everyday interpersonal chat may develop a sensitivity for what is appropriate in a wide range of contexts. 
It is possible to set some of this usage out as *rules*. 
This is not always possible, but to guide learners some "rules" have been established.

Here is a quote from a previous thread, about prepositions:​_The "rule" was picked up and put into grammars in the 18th century and found its way into the hearts of grammar teachers everywhere. (sources: Cambridge Grammar of English, and others) The problem is that no one, even excellent writers, follows that rule all of the time. There are times when it is perfectly fine to end a sentence with a preposition. Sometimes the choice to end a sentence with a preposition or not is purely a style difference. The Cambridge grammar says it is harder to leave a preposition at the end of a sentence that adds extra information than one that is required by the verb._​
Ideas such as "Don't end a sentence with a preposition" began as generalisations from accepted style and have been formalised into *rules* for schools. Like many *rules* for schools, they are simplified. And just as it it quite legitimate to start a sentence with "And" if you know what you are doing, so it is quite acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition if it would be artificial and tortuous to find something else to end it with.

The art lies in being aware of the words used and the audience so that the the total effect is to communicate the message, not something about the messenger (except when that is an implicit part of the message).

You have failed to communicate effectively if the audience first thinks "what a pompous ass", or "what an illiterate idiot".​


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## modgirl

panjandrum said:
			
		

> What we have here is a major AE/BE difference.
> Those of us from the old country do not feel the same compulsion to look for rules, or to unthinkingly follow the particular set that we have found, today.
> Such blind obedience we leave to relative newcomers.


 
With all due respect, I have met many, many men and women from the United Kingdom who vehemently disagree with you.

I do think we owe it to those learning English -- especially those who may confront several of these examples in exams -- to help them learn general rules of grammar, whether we personally follow these rules or not.


----------



## panjandrum

Did you read the entire post?

You should find that "we" are generally very careful to point out the recommended "normal" usage.
We are also free to explore the areas of usage where precise obedience leads to communication failure.


----------



## modgirl

Pan, perhaps we should ask the non-native speakers if their questions have more to do with colloquial usage or proper grammar. I'll be the first to argue that "The girl is her" is very colloquial. However, on an English exam, answering "The girl is her" as opposed to "The girl is she" will be counted wrong.

Perhaps that's the real misunderstanding here. Are we discussing colloquial usage or proper grammar?

(By the way, ending sentences with prepositions is more a matter of style than of grammar, and most books that I've seen today do not consider it "wrong" to end a sentence with a preposition in many cases.)


----------



## panjandrum

modgirl said:
			
		

> Pan, perhaps we should ask the non-native speakers if their questions have more to do with colloquial usage or proper grammar. I'll be the first to argue that "The girl is her" is very colloquial. However, on an English exam, answering "The girl is her" as opposed to "The girl is she" will be counted wrong.


It is often/always/usually/sometimes clear what people are looking for. Often, the responses make it clear that the exam answer is .... but a conversational answer is ....

I think it is often/always/usually/sometimes clear in the responses that the poster is discussing possibly eccentric usage.

I value enormously the fact that this forum offers the opportunity to do exactly that, and to explore variations in acceptability across geography and level of usage (what this place tells me is "register"). 

I can see that this may make things difficult for some, but I also observe that many non-native speakers are very well aware when things are going "eccentric" - and have indeed commented on how they appreciate "lurking" on such discussions.

It will never be possible to ensure that every post here follows any set of rules - or has an associated correction.

It is hard to keep all of that in balance.....

... but then that's the magic of WordReference


----------



## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> "Woe is me" is not, and never has been, incorrect.


 
It is your opinion, not fact.  

http://www.englishrules.com/writing/grammar.php

However, I'll be the first to admit that "woe is I" sounds rather weird!


----------



## foxfirebrand

English does "rule," I don't need to click on a link to know that.

If "I" is correct, then "is" is wrong, isn't it?  Shouldn't it be "woe *am* I?"

If "woe is me" is wrong, then you must advocate everyone switching to "woe is I," right? I think it's a great idea, with one caveat. We ought to move over to your forlorn starboard position in shifts, cause if we all changed at once the ship would keel right over.

And then it would be woe was *we!*


----------



## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> If "woe is me" is wrong, then you must advocate everyone switching to "woe is I," right?


 
Not at all, but you stated, as a fact, that "woe is me" has *never* been incorrect.

I think it's very important to realize that an awfully lot of people reading this forum are depending on learning correct English to gain admission to universities or for job interviews in English-speaking positions. I've had several personal messages from people saying that they greatly appreciate knowing not just colloquial usage, but proper English and appreciate those who really try to help them.

In this type of a forum, when people's lives may actually depend on their knowledge of English, it is important that use the best English that we can.


----------



## panjandrum

I thought maybe I should check....


"[...]... apparently received. In the 7th grade. My mother, bless her heart, is somewhat of a packrat. And I mean that in the best, most positive sense of the word."

Homepage.
englishrules

...and we are to use this as a reference site.


----------



## modgirl

panjandrum said:
			
		

> ...and we are to use this as a reference site.


 
It was a quick reference, at best! But I was replying to the sentence that "woe is me" has NEVER been incorrect. Obviously, that was not the case.  If you really want, I can find several academic sources.

It's dangerous to use "never." I've done it myself too many times!


----------



## panjandrum

modgirl said:
			
		

> If you really want, I can find several academic sources!


 Possible, but totally pointless


----------



## timpeac

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I thought maybe I should check....
> 
> 
> "[...]... apparently received. In the 7th grade. My mother, bless her heart, is somewhat of a packrat. And I mean that in the best, most positive sense of the word."
> 
> Homepage.
> englishrules
> 
> ...and we are to use this as a reference site.


 
I think that is a very positive, almost completely heart-warming sentiment of feeling!


----------



## foxfirebrand

I _never_ can keep my place in the Imperial Rulebook, that's my problem.  Now woe _were_ we?

Seriously, your rather chatty source misses the point, and and her hypothetical "woe is I" is the dead giveaway.  She obviously thinks the expression is a word-order anomaly, and that its subject is or ever was _first person_ in the first place.  The subject is "woe," and the correct verb forms have _always_ been _*be*, is, was, and will be._  And so forth, if you wanna make up "woe would be" paragons-- I mean paradigms.

If _I_ were or had ever been the subject, then *is* would never appear or have appeared in the expression.  As in correct German (dative) usage, the English use of the objective pronoun has a pedigree going back to the long-lost ablative _mihi_ and grammarians who give sources for their pronouncements generally ask us to imagine an implied preposition, since English settled on the prepositional-phrase convention in pre-English times, when we stopped declining nouns.  In the case of "woe is me," the preposition _unto_ suggests itself.

I'm not making this up.  I can't say the same for your source who says "which is technically incorrect" without attribution of any sort.  Trusting such authoritative but undocumented statements is *never* a good idea.


----------



## modgirl

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Now woe _were_ we?


 
Clever!



> Trusting such authoritative but undocumented statements is *never* a good idea.


 
Agreed, and I hang my grammatical head in shame! Does your same statement apply to your explanation?

However, you did state that "woe is me" has *never* been incorrect, and again, there are some who would argue with you. That's really all I'm saying. To use _always_ and _never _with regards to grammar is really only an invitation for someone to show otherwise. 

Edit: Although "Woe is I" and "Woe is me" is not exactly fiercely debated in today's world, here are a couple of other sites that mention that "Woe is I" is actually better than "Woe is me" -- grammatically, that is. One source comprises several "word rogues" (alleged professors, but I don't know that for a fact) and the other is an education service that prepares students for taking tests.

http://www.lanzbom.org/ongrammar.htm

http://www.risingscores.net/psat.html


----------



## Nick

SusieQ said:
			
		

> He speaks to her more than me. (Here I am saying that he does not speak to me as much as he speaks to her).
> He speaks to her more than I. (Here I am saying that I do not speak to her as much as he speaks to her).
> 
> See the difference? You can say it both ways but it means two different things.


In theory, yes. In real life, absolutely not. You need to change more than "me" to "I" to be understood.


----------



## Nick

modgirl said:
			
		

> I do think we owe it to those learning English -- especially those who may confront several of these examples in exams -- to help them learn general rules of grammar, whether we personally follow these rules or not.


 I think it is more important to show how English is actually used.

 Sure, you should be aware of the rules, but if you are writing or speaking with "I" in place of "me", you are in for funny looks and chuckles. Whether it is a note to a friend or a published novel, I expect to find "me".



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> When it comes to grammar, you are all smarter than I.
> _ This sounds stilted and contorted and flat out ridiculous!_
> 
> She is bigger than I
> _Sounds very formal but not incorrect or awkward.  _
> 
> Can anyone tell me why the "I" form seems ok in some contexts, and so strange in others?


They both sound awkard, stilted, and flat our ridiculous. Neither of them is more acceptable than the other. They both are out of place.


----------



## modgirl

Nick said:
			
		

> I think it is more important to show how English is actually used.


 
I agree. The fact is that we don't all have the same education nor run in the same social circles.

There have been several people here who say that the usage of "He is taller than I" is what they hear naturally. Generally, the more educated a person is, the more likelihood is that he'll be around other educated people who do use proper English. That is not meant to be an insult to anyone, but that's been my experience in life and that of most people I know.


----------



## JLanguage

Ex. The guy was much bigger than me/I am. 
It seems to me that the former is generally used colloquially while the latter is the (correct) form, but tends to be used only in writing.

Thanks for your input,

-Jonathan.

EDIT: I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find any relevant threads.


----------



## modgirl

Oh, those little pronouns.....


*I *is a subject pronoun. It is the one doing the action or is the subject matter for a state of being. 

Eg: *I* am a European. *I* feel sad.  It is best that* I* make supper. 


*Me *is an object pronoun. It receives an action, either directly or indirectly. 

Eg: Please give the book to *me*. Tell *me* your secret. Oh, throw *me* on the bed, you wild monster.



To figure out which to use, try to finish the sentence:

She is taller than (me or I).

She is taller than *me* is. Make sense? No, of course not.


An object pronoun receives the action.

Jack threw the ball to Jill. Jill receives the action. 

Thus, Jack threw the ball to *her*. (or me)


However, for some reason, people get confused when there is another receiver:

Jack threw the ball to Jill and (me or I).

One wouldn't say Jack threw the ball to *I*, so the correct pronoun has to be the object pronoun (which receives the action).


*The question of what is used colloquially depends entirely on one's social/professional/academic circle.*


----------



## elroy

JLanguage said:
			
		

> Ex. The guy was much bigger than me/I am.
> It seems to me that the former is generally used colloquially while the latter is the (correct) form, but tends to be used only in writing.
> 
> Thanks for your input,
> 
> -Jonathan.
> 
> EDIT: I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find any relevant threads.


 
You are right: "me," although incorrect, is by far the more common form colloquially.

Formally, it should be "I."  The "am" can still be elided (hence "than I") but then it sounded twice as awkward.


----------



## Derringer

elroy said:
			
		

> You are right: "me," although incorrect, is by far the more common form colloquially.
> 
> Formally, it should be "I." The "am" can still be elided (hence "than I") but then it sounded twice as awkward.


 
Of course, when you're comparing objects of a preposition or sentence, rather than subjects, the case becomes objective instead of subjective. "She gave it to him rather than me."


----------



## panjandrum

You want the truth?

Knowing full well that it is wrong, I would still *say* "The guy is bigger than me."

I would never *write* it. I would either change the sentence completely or write, "The guy is bigger than I am."

Why?
In speaking, I know that if I use the correct form it will cause the listener to stop thinking about what I am saying and start thinking about I/me. I may never regain his attention.

In writing, I know that correct grammar is more important, but also that many of my readers seeing the correct form would find it strange and go off into I/me thinking. If I use the full form "....bigger than I am," this will not happen.

In my defence, looking at the range of examples in modgirl's post I would otherwise be consistently correct


----------



## elroy

Derringer said:
			
		

> Of course, when you're comparing objects of a preposition or sentence, rather than subjects, the case becomes objective instead of subjective. "She gave it to him rather than me."


 
Correct.  It all depends on what you're eliding.


----------



## elroy

panjandrum said:
			
		

> You want the truth?
> 
> Knowing full well that it is wrong, I would still *say* "The guy is bigger than me."
> 
> I would never *write* it. I would either change the sentence completely or write, "The guy is bigger than I am."
> 
> Why?
> In speaking, I know that if I use the correct form it will cause the listener to stop thinking about what I am saying and start thinking about I/me. I may never regain his attention.
> 
> In writing, I know that correct grammar is more important, but also that many of my readers seeing the correct form would find it strange and go off into I/me thinking. If I use the full form "....bigger than I am," this will not happen.
> 
> In my defence, looking at the range of examples in modgirl's post I would otherwise be consistently correct


 
I agree wholeheartedly with you.  My tendencies coincide exactly with yours.


----------



## Magixo

I am 145 centimetres tall. My friend is 143 centimetres tall.

Who is taller? You or your friend?
I am taller. (OR SHOULD I ANSWER)
I am taller than him.

Is it OK just to say: I am taller. OR should I say: I am taller than him.
What is right? Is there any rule that says so?


Thanks,
Magixo


----------



## maxiogee

Either usage is accurate and acceptable.
If asked directly "Who is taller, you or your friend?" you could just say "I am."
There is no rule.


----------



## panjandrum

Magixo said:
			
		

> I am 145 centimetres tall. My friend is 143 centimetres tall.
> 
> Who is taller? You or your friend?
> I am taller. (OR SHOULD I ANSWER)
> I am taller than him.
> 
> Is it OK just to say: I am taller. OR should I say: I am taller than him.
> What is right? Is there any rule that says so?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Magixo


To be correct, and follow the rule, you should not say, "I am taller than him," but rather, "I am taller than he."
However, you will often hear "... taller than him."

For a very long discussion on this topic, CLICK HERE, but I would advise you to take full expedition equipment with you.

If you don't wish to go that far, take Maxiogee's advice and simply answer, "I am."


----------



## bartonig

If it obvious (to the listeners) in the context in which the conversation takes place that you and your friend are being compared then you could say _I am taller_. Otherwise, you have to say _I am taller than him_.


----------



## Magixo

Well, thank you for your replies, but I have one more question to ask regarding the adjectives issue!? Would it be correct to say: _I am the taller., _where the definite article plays a role of demonstrative pronoun, in a way, meaning _this one_?


----------



## Mita

Magixo said:
			
		

> Well, thank you for your replies, but I have one more question to ask regarding the adjectives issue!? Would it be correct to say: _I am the taller., _where the definite article plays a role of demonstrative pronoun, in a way, meaning _this one_?


If I am not wrong, you can not say "I am the taller"; you should say "I am the tallest". But, just in case, wait for the natives... 

By the way, welcome to the forums!! 

Best regards,


----------



## Esca

Magixo said:
			
		

> Well, thank you for your replies, but I have one more question to ask regarding the adjectives issue!? Would it be correct to say: _I am the taller., _where the definite article plays a role of demonstrative pronoun, in a way, meaning _this one_?



I think it could be understood to be an abbreviation of "I am the taller one," as in, "I am the taller one of the two of us," but it is not very correct.  You should say the whole thing: "I am the taller one."


----------



## bhcesl

It is possible to say, "He is the taller of the two," without souding stuffy, but, "He is the taller," is a bit awkward.

Also, it is technically correct to say, "I am taller than he," because there is an understood continued clause, "I am taller than he is tall," but, "I am taller than him," is in far greater use.  If you "wanna" sound like an American when you talk--I don't presume that you do-- you "gotta" talk like we do, not like the books with the antiquated usage rules tell you that you should.


----------



## river

In informal language, we will frequently hear a sentence like "He's taller than me." In that sentence, _than_ is being used as a preposition, much as _like_ would be used as a preposition in "He's tall like me."  Most (not all) writers use _than_ as a conjunction, as in "He's taller than I [am]."


----------



## bartonig

Conversation:

 A. "I want one of you two to reach up and change the light bulb."
 B. "OK. I'm the taller. I'll do it."

 A. "I want one of you two to reach up and change the light bulb."
 B. "OK. I'm the tallest. I'll do it."

In the first B is thinking in terms of comparatives and in the second in terms of superlatives. Both are good and used.

_The taller_ and _the tallest_ are noun phrases headed by adjectives. An article is obligatory.

Other possible responses from B using adjectival phrases as complements to the subject could be:

 B. "OK. I'm taller. I'll do it."
 B. "OK. I'm tallest. I'll do it."


----------



## Esca

I understand what you mean and it makes sense, but to my American ears, just saying "I'm the taller," without any continuation, sounds extremely awkward.


----------



## bhcesl

river said:
			
		

> In informal language, we will frequently hear a sentence like "He's taller than me." In that sentence, _than_ is being used as a preposition, much as _like_ would be used as a preposition in "He's tall like me."  Most (not all) writers use _than_ as a conjunction, as in "He's taller than I [am]."



This is what I love about grammar: everyone has a different view.  In a TOEIC or TOEFL class, both 'like' and 'than', in these cases, would be considered adverbs to the adjective, or an adjective complement.


----------



## dbelle4500

I would always say


Taller than me


----------



## panjandrum

Please check out some of the previous forum discussions on this topic and come back to us by posting on one of them if you still need clarification.

You will find them if you use the forum advanced search function and type

*"than me" "than I"* 

in the key words box.

HERE is a recent thread on the topic with links to previous conversations.


----------



## Angie_C

Hi

I got a doubt about when can you use "you and me" and when is correct to use "you and i" or if both options are ok...

Thanks in advance...


----------



## sens figuré

Hello, and welcome to the forum!



			
				Angie_C said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I got a have doubts about when can you to use "you and me," and when it is correct to use "you and i," or if both options are ok...
> 
> Thanks in advance...



Here are two sample sentences:

_You and I_ have become great friends. (subject) 

Please keep this discussion between you and me. (object) 

I hope that helps!


----------



## Angie_C

Ok, so, that means that "you and i" it´s only used at the begining of the sentence, before the verb and "you and me" goes after the verb??


----------



## la reine victoria

Angie_C said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I got a doubt about when can you use "you and me" and when is correct to use "you and i" or if both options are ok...
> 
> Thanks in advance...


 

Welcome Angie-C.  

1).  "You and I (_subject_) are going to Scotland for a week.  I think we deserve a holiday."

2).  "Mrs. Groves has invited you and me (_object_) to stay with her.  She owns a beautiful villa in Italy."


In exampe 2) many native English speakers make the mistake of saying "you and I" instead of "you and me".  "Mrs. Groves has  invited _you and I_ . . . ."  

I hear this mistake all the time.  Have any other natives noticed it?


Thanks.



LRV


----------



## sens figuré

I notice it all of the time, LRV! "You and I" is often used as a safe haven for the grammar-haters among us.


----------



## la reine victoria

Angie_C said:
			
		

> Ok, so, that means that "you and i" it´s only used at the begining of the sentence, before the verb and "you and me" goes after the verb??


 

Not necessarily Angie.

"Of all the members of the church choir, the vicar says that you and I have the best voices."

"The doctor is going to give you and me a check-up before we go on holiday."

The rule to remember is that "you and I" are subjects; "you and me" objects.

Please ask again if you are uncertain. Also ask yourself how you would use these in your own language. That may make it clearer for you.


Regards,

LRV


----------



## TrentinaNE

Angie_C said:
			
		

> Ok, so, that means that "you and i" it´s only used at the begining of the sentence, before the verb and "you and me" goes after the verb??


Not always. 

- Knock, knock.
- Who's there?
- It's Mary and I.

Although many native-speakers would say "It's Mary and me," this construction actually calls for the nominative case, I, rather than the objective case, me. But your rule of thumb regarding placement before or after the verb is probably accurate in the vast majority of cases.  



			
				LRV said:
			
		

> In exampe 2) many native English speakers make the mistake of saying "you and I" instead of "you and me". "Mrs. Groves has invited _you and I_ . . . ."


I'm fairly sure we've discussed this phenomenon before, Your Majesty. I suspect the grammar-impaired think of I/me as a "formal/informal" distinction, rather than nominative/objective. 

Elizabeth


----------



## Angie_C

I think i got it now!, thank you guys, it was very helpfull.


----------



## maxiogee

If you would use "I" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and I", if you would use "me" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and me".


----------



## nasridine

I noticed that people use "me" as subject too like:
Me and my roomate went to the park the other day.
I'm not sure this is correct or not.



			
				sens figuré said:
			
		

> Hello, and welcome to the forum!
> 
> 
> 
> Here are two sample sentences:
> 
> _You and I_ have become great friends. (subject)
> 
> Please keep this discussion between you and me. (object)
> 
> I hope that helps!


----------



## TrentinaNE

nasridine said:
			
		

> I noticed that people use "me" as subject too like:
> Me and my roomate went to the park the other day.
> I'm not sure this is correct or not.


Nasridine, if you note LRV's examples above:


> 1). "You and I (_subject_) are going to Scotland for a week. I think we deserve a holiday."
> 
> 2). "Mrs. Groves has invited you and me (_object_) to stay with her. She owns a beautiful villa in Italy."


then the answer should be clear. If it's not, then try maxiogee's tip:


> If you would use "I" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and I", if you would use "me" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and me".


Would you say "Me went to the park the other day"? If so, then we have more serious language problems to address!  

Elizabeth


----------



## Joelline

maxiogee said:
			
		

> If you would use "I" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and I", if you would use "me" were you alone in the sentence, then use "you and me".


 
This is the the rule I give to my students, and it's the only one that has ever worked!  I have to say that sometimes I see my students' lips moviing when they start to say "He invited Bill and ...... (pause)...ME!"  But they always get the right answer!


----------



## nasridine

I do hear people say this in America.
I mean "me" can't be used independently as an subject only if it's in the situation with somebody else. For example: Me and my friends played poke yesterday.
If you search in google with the quoted keyword "Me and my friends went", you can find many sentences like this.



			
				TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Nasridine, if you note LRV's examples above:
> 
> then the answer should be clear. If it's not, then try maxiogee's tip:
> 
> Would you say "Me went to the park the other day"? If so, then we have more serious language problems to address!
> 
> Elizabeth


----------



## riglos

I can think of, at least, 2 further cases where the use of the pronoun lends itself to confusion:

I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me which, you think, are the correct sentences in the following cases, and comment on each:

*1. Anticipatory subject / object "it":*

It was I who went to the presentation.

It was me who went to the presentation.

Here, we have an anticipatory *subject* "it", and since it is anticipating the subject, I dare say the correct sentence is the first one.

1. It was I who he was speaking to.

2a. It was me who he has speaking to. (Or should it be (2b.) "It was me whom he was speaking to?)

3. It was I to whom he was speaking.

4. It was me to whom he was speaking.

Here, "it" functions as an anticipatory *object*, so I think that the correct versions must be 1 and 2b. Not sure, though. I don't even know if "It was me who he was speaking to" is correct.

*2. When the pronoun is postmodified by a noun in apposition:*

*We engineers* think that .... 
*Us engineers* think that... 

Is my assumption OK?

Thanks a million!

Mara.-


----------



## Boyd

I'll use these examples as given previously to show a method which is quite helpful that we were taught in school (Canada) and works for the majority of cases.
1). "You and I (_subject_) are going to Scotland for a week. I think we deserve a holiday."

2). "Mrs. Groves has invited you and me (_object_) to stay with her. She owns a beautiful villa in Italy."

Our teacher told us that you can figure out which to use by asking yourself, "Which makes more sense?" Would it be you are going to Scotland and I am going to Scotland, or you are going to Scotland and me am going to Scotland?
In the case of #2 you would ask yourself if it makes more sense to say Mrs. Groves has invited you and Mrs. Groves has invited me, or Mrs. Groves has invited you and Mrs. Groves has invited I?


----------



## TrentinaNE

nasridine said:
			
		

> I do hear people say this in America.
> I mean "me" can't be used independently as an subject only if it's in the situation with somebody else. For example: Me and my friends played poke yesterday.
> If you search in google with the quoted keyword "Me and my friends went", you can find many sentences like this.


The fact that you hear it doesn't make it correct.  "Me and my friends went" is probably one of the most common errors you'll hear among American speakers!    But the fact remains: If you would not say "Me went to the park" then you should not say "Me and my friends went to the park."  

Elizabeth


----------



## la reine victoria

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> The fact that you hear it doesn't make it correct.  "Me and my friends went" is probably one of the most common errors you'll hear among American speakers!  But the fact remains: If you would not say "Me went to the park" then you should not say "Me and my friends went to the park."
> 
> Elizabeth


 

Quite right Elizabeth.  It should be "My friends and I went to the park."



LRV


----------



## Mr Bones

I think there is a very common structure in which *me* is allowed instead of *I*, even if *I* is actually the right choice.

He's not as tall as me (I am).
She speaks English better than me (I do).

Am I right? Does this apply here?

Thanks, Bones.


----------



## emma42

Maxiogee's short answer was the correct one and it is a rule I often refer to myself when I am not sure if it is *you and I* or *you and me. *  My mum taught me that one, bless her.


----------



## panjandrum

If you search back through the threads you will see the bloodstains where this topic has been batted back and forth.

Some of the blood was mine.
I maintained that although I should know better, if I was explaining that if John is taller than I am I would say, "John is taller than me."

"More ___ than me" or "More ___ than I"?

If you feel like taking a trip down that thread, I suggest you don't go alone and you tell your loved ones not to expect to see you until Sunday.


----------



## Robbo

Angie_C said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I got a doubt about when can you use "you and me" and when is correct to use "you and i" or if both options are ok...
> 
> Thanks in advance...



There is a very simple way to decide.   

Mentally remove the "you and" from the sentence and ask yourself:  Would I use 'I' or 'me'?

I went to town.  You and I went to town.

Harry talked to me.  Harry talked to you and me.


----------



## la reine victoria

Robbo said:
			
		

> There is a very simple way to decide.
> 
> Mentally remove the "you and" from the sentence and ask yourself: Would I use 'I' or 'me'?
> 
> I went to town. You and I went to town.
> 
> Harry talked to me. Harry talked to you and me.


 

Excellent suggestion Robbo!  


LRV


----------



## titan2

Erica is smarter than I am.

Erica is smarter than me.

Can the second sentence be correct?


----------



## jazyk

If you consider _than_ a preposition, why not?


----------



## Brioche

titan2 said:
			
		

> Erica is smarter than I am.
> 
> Erica is smarter than me.
> 
> Can the second sentence be correct?


 
The second sentence is by far the more common in spoken English.

But I wouldn't use it in formal, written English.


----------



## titan2

But if that is true you might say, "John gave the book to I," instead of "me," since "to" is also a preposition.


----------



## Brioche

titan2 said:
			
		

> But if that is true you might say, "John gave the book to I," instead of "me," since "to" is also a preposition.


 
_Than_ is not a preposition, it is a conjunction.


----------



## .   1

The first sentence is technically less than correct as am is redundant to I in the syntax you chose.

A slightly more correct version thus becomes,


> 'Erica is smarter than I.'


 
.,,


----------



## Confused Linguist

Many years back someone told me I should say "It is I" instead of "It's me" in response to a question such as "Who's that?". She knew all the rules of grammar but was not a native speaker of English.


----------



## samueldclark

Erika is smarter than I.
grammatically better than Erika is smarter than me.
And in your original sentence it is clear why.
Erika is smarter than I (am).
Implicit.
Not Erika is marter than me (am).

But if the context were, for instance...
She loves you more than me.
She loves you more than I.

Both CAN be correct... the implicit comparisons being
She loves you more than (she loves) me.
She loves you more than I (love you).

So, though most use it incorrectly, you can see why it is perhaps imprtant to get it right in some contexts.

Hope that qualifies as an intelliget answer...


----------



## Moogey

I disagree with samueldclark.

"I" is a subject pronoun and can only be used when it is just that--a subject pronoun.

"Than" is a preposition and if it's followed by a pronoun, it has to be a prepositional pronoun, which, in this case, is "me".

Both of the sentences presented by titan2 are grammatically correct. The first option is more clear, and is used to be more specific.

-M


----------



## samueldclark

you can disagree all you want. But it's a fact.

of cours the second is correct in "daily English". But not in a strict grammatical sense.


----------



## Moogey

samueldclark said:
			
		

> You can disagree all you want. But it's a fact.
> 
> Of course the second is correct in "daily English". But not in a strict grammatical sense.


Care to provide some sites to back up your claim? It's not very helpful to simply say "That's not true..."

I'd be very interested to see what source says I'm wrong. It's important for me to speak properly.

-M


----------



## samueldclark

if imust
http://wwwnew.towson.edu/ows/ModuleCASE.htm
towards the end...
comparison section.


----------



## Moogey

samueldclark said:
			
		

> if imust
> http://wwwnew.towson.edu/ows/ModuleCASE.htm
> towards the end...
> comparison section.


If the data presented in the link you provided is correct, then you would be right. However, it is interesting because "than" is a preposition and prepositions are followed by prepositional pronouns. So therefore, there would have to be rules for comparison that override the rules of prepositions. What do others think about this quite interesting logic?

-M


----------



## Brioche

Moogey said:
			
		

> I disagree with samueldclark.
> 
> "I" is a subject pronoun and can only be used when it is just that--a subject pronoun.
> 
> "Than" is a preposition and if it's followed by a pronoun, it has to be a prepositional pronoun, which, in this case, is "me".
> 
> Both of the sentences presented by titan2 are grammatically correct. The first option is more clear, and is used to be more specific.
> 
> -M


 
*Than* is *not* a preposition, it is a *conjunction*.


----------



## Moogey

Hi Brioche,



> _prep._ _Usage Problem_ In comparison or contrast with: could run faster than him; outclassed everyone other than her.


Dictionary.com

*Edit*: Interestingly enough, however, it gives another definition of it as a comparison when used as an interjection. So it can compare either as an interjection or a preposition, I guess.



> Used after a comparative adjective or adverb to introduce the second element or clause of an unequal comparison: She is a better athlete than I.



Note how when used as an interjection, it uses subject pronouns like samuel said, but when used as a preposition it uses preopositional pronouns as I said. I wonder how you distinguish.

-M


----------



## Brioche

Moogey said:
			
		

> Hi Brioche,
> 
> 
> Dictionary.com
> 
> *Edit*: Interestingly enough, however, it gives another definition of it as a comparison when used as an interjection. So it can compare either as an interjection or a preposition, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Note how when used as an interjection, it uses subject pronouns like samuel said, but when used as a preposition it uses preopositional pronouns as I said. I wonder how you distinguish.
> 
> -M


 
see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/than

*Than*
Function:_ conjunction_
1 a -- used as a function word to indicate the second member or the member taken as the point of departure in a comparison expressive of inequality; used with comparative adjectives and comparative adverbs <older than I am> <easier said than done>

Function: _preposition_
*:* in comparison with <you are older _than_ me>
*usage* ... Some 200 years of elaborate reasoning have led to these present-day inconsistent conclusions: _than [me]_ is standard but clumsy 
...... Our evidence shows that _than_ is used as a conjunction more commonly than as a preposition ...


----------



## moodywop

After this topic was discussed at IE I read this EO thread for the first time. I hope you don't mind if I copy an edited version of my post here. I have tried to develop Panjandrum's argument. 

Brian

I've found an extremely long thread on "than me/I" in EO. I'll read it later but a thought has just occured to me after reading your quote:


> After 200 years of innocent if occasional use, the preposition _than_ was called into question by 18th century grammarians


 
I would object to "occasional". The OED lists plenty of examples of "than me/him/her.." from the works of many writers.

Modern linguists have dismissed the faulty logic behind prescriptive rules imposed by 18th century grammarians. They incorrectly tried to impose the straitjacket of Latin grammar on a completely different language. 

However this seems to be one case where the 18thc grammarians have won an undeserved victory.

If "than" is classified as both a preposition and a conjunction in all dictionaries and was freely used as a preposition before the 18thc grammarians wrongly condemned it then why should "than me" be incorrect?

My impression seems to be confirmed by _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language:_

"He's bigger _than I am _[1a]
_......................I _[1b]
_......................me _[1c]

_Than _is a conjunction in [1a] and [1b] and a preposition in [1c]. However, the choice between [1b] and [1c] is a well-known prescriptive issue in traditional grammar, and it may be argued that _than _is both a conjunction in [1a] and a preposition in [1c], and that _than I _is not a reduction of [1a]_than I am _*but a hypercorrect variant of [1c] than me."*

The _New Oxford Dictionary of English_ (also published by OUP but not to be confused with the _OED)_ concurs:

"It is arguable that *than *in this context is not a conjunction but a preposition, similar grammatically to words like *with, between *or *for. *In this case the personal pronoun is objective: _he is smaller *than her*_ is standard in just the same way as, for example, _I work *with her*_ is standard. Whatever the grammatical analysis, the evidence confirms that sentences like _he is smaller *than she*_ are uncommon in modern English. Uses involving the objective personal pronoun, on the other hand, are almost universally accepted"

Ironically, and to the dismay of 18th c grammarians if they were still around, this would make "he is smaller than she" as wrong as the universally and rightly reviled "between you and I" 

Everybody seems to agree that analyzing and regulating the English language by using Latin grammar as a model was completely wrong and illogical. So why not consign the condemnation of "than me" to the dustbin in the same way as other analyses of English based on Latin grammar have been rejected?

I've forgotten most of my Latin but I guess that the 18thc. grammarians based their analysis of _than + pronoun _on the Latin _quam ego sum:_

Nihil tibi concedo, quo studiosor eius sis, *quam ego sum*
*(Cicero)*

Interestingly, my friend Trentina uses the word "nominative", which is borrowed from Latin grammar.

After all, even the Italian language academy has openly rejected some rules imposed by traditional grammarians(and still taught in schools) such as "do not start a sentence with a conjunction" - its argument being that it is a useful stylistic device used by *all *our major writers, starting with Dante (link). The argument is presented by the 92-year-old Florentine purist, Professor Nencioni, who was for a long time the president of the academy.


----------



## southerngal

Moogey said:
			
		

> "Than" is a preposition and if it's followed by a pronoun, it has to be a prepositional pronoun, which, in this case, is "me".


 
Not necessarily. It all depends on the context. If the pronoun receives the action of the verb, then yes. For example: John loves his car more than (he loves) me. But, if a clause follows a preposition, then the pronoun must be a subject. For example. John loves his car more than I (love his car). You're just shortening the clause. The choice of which pronoun to use makes for two sentences giving two different meanings.

It's all very simple. Use a subject pronoun for a pronoun that is _doing_ the action of the verb and an object pronoun when the pronoun receives the action.

(Many people get them mixed up and you will hear the wrong pronoun being used occasionally)


----------



## moodywop

southerngal said:
			
		

> But, if a clause follows *a preposition*, then the pronoun must be a subject


 
I guess you intended to write "a conjunction". If you consider "than" as a preposition (which Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik consider perfectly feasible in _CGEL_) in "than X" then the object pronoun should be used.

Your argument only works if "than" is seen as a conjunction (which it definitely is in, for example, "more than you'll ever know").

Of course the same problem arises with "as":

he's as stubborn as I (conjunction followed by "I" = "I am"))
he's as stubborn as me (preposition)

The easy way out between the stilted "as I" and the informal "as me" is "as I am", as suggested by Panji.

I don't remember where but I remember reading the following argument against considering "than" and "as" as conjunctions and the following pronoun "a shortened clause": 

those who say that "than I" is the only correct form because they interpret it as short for "than I am" should also say "before I" and "after I" in "he got there before/after me" since , in order to be consistent, they would have to interpret "before/after me" as "before/after I did".

If "before" and "after" are rightly regarded as prepositions in my example(although, like "than", they can act both as prepositions and as conjunctions) why be so inflexible with the grammatical status of "than"? Just because of the Latin "quam [than] ego [ I ] sum [am]"?



> you will hear the wrong pronoun being used *occasionally*


 
"Occasionally" may apply to "between you and I" but certainly not to "than me":

(from the corpus-based "Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English")

"Corpus findings:
The accusative forms are *the only ones* attested in conversation...In fiction, nominative and accusative forms are evenly divided

Both types are extremely rare in news and academic prose...Instead, writers frequently opt for a full comparative clause, thereby avoiding a choice between a nominative and an accusative form"

"Despite a traditional prescription based on the rules of Latin grammar, accusative forms are predominant"

Why should English follow the rules of Latin grammar when even Italian, a direct descendant, does not?


----------



## southerngal

moodywop said:
			
		

> those who say that "than I" is the only correct form because they interpret it as short for "than I am" should also say "before I" and "after I" in "he got there before/after me" since , in order to be consistent, they would have to interpret "before/after me" as "before/after I did".


 
Of course.  "She has more money than me" is definitely wrong and makes no sense.  It's very sloppy and bad form to use an object pronoun, but a lot of people who don't know any better do it.  (And, of course, we all make mistakes, even in our own native languages!)


----------



## cyberpedant

While reading the "Different to, from, than" thread, I noticed that some folks were using "me" after "than," as if "than" were a preposition and "me" its object. Which do you consider correct?
...bigger than me.
...bigger than I.


----------



## Old Novice

cyberpedant said:


> While reading the "Different to, from, than" thread, I noticed that some folks were using "me" after "than," as if "than" were a preposition and "me" its object. Which do you consider correct?
> ...bigger than me.
> ...bigger than I.


 
I'm no grammarian, but my understanding is that two usages are proper:

"... bigger than me" => "me" is the object of the phrase

"...bigger than I am" => "I am" is the object of the phrase. "I" can be short for "I am".

Of course, many children are taught so thoroughly not to use,  "Me and John are going out to play", that some people just use "I" reflexively.


----------



## timpeac

Yes, the traditional view is that "I" will be used for the subject

He thinks more than I (do)

and "me" for the object

He thinks more of Jack than (he thinks of) me.

I personally have no problem with "me" used in the subject position for several reasons -

- it is extremely common.
- to my ear "Jack is taller than I" sounds utterly bizarre.
- there is no sound reason to reject "me" on the basis that a subject form should be used. It is based on the belief that "to be" should equate subjects with subjects (itself based on Latin grammar). However, you can consider "me" to be a disjunctive form (a pointing form) just like "moi" in French (itself a Latin language) which you say "il est plus grand que moi" not "il est plus grand que je". (I quote an example from French here just to show there is no ipso facto reason to equate subjects with subjects in grammar).

And yes old novice it makes me smile to myself when I hear people who have been so beaten to believe that "xxx and me" is wrong that they say self-conscious things such as "between John and I".


----------



## riglos

timpeac said:


> Yes, the traditional view is that "I" will be used for the subject
> 
> He thinks more than I (do)
> 
> and "me" for the *subject*
> 
> He thinks more of Jack than (he thinks of) me.


 
Hi, Timepac! You mean "object", right?


----------



## timpeac

riglos said:


> Hi, Timepac! You mean "object", right?


Ooops, absolutely. Sorry for the confusion - I'll change my original post.


----------



## Porteño

Wow! This has been some discussion but, like the United Nations, has arrived at no definitive conclusion. This is hardly surprising considering that English is a language in a constant state of evolution, plus the fact that it is spoken in many parts of the world where regional and cultural influences add to the confusion. Nevertheless it made fascinating, if not time-consuming reading (approx. 1 hour)
Timpeac, I'm not a fascist but I still go for the 'I' rather than 'me' in the comparatives. You may be smarter than I . .....


----------



## mirx

In comparisons we must always write than I (am or do), he, she, it, we, and so on. That's the gramatically correct way, but it sometimes sounds poshy or way too formal, I still can't get rid of the habit of always saying than me, her, him, it's much more comfortable to me that way and I think to most of people.


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## Grammarian

Let me bring us to a definitive answer.

"than me (him, her, them, us)" is incorrect according to formal "proper" grammar.
"than I (he, she, they, we)" is correct according to formal "proper" grammar.

People commonly misuse this, just like they commonly mis-say "I'm doing good" when they mean "I'm doing well".

If you're a computer science fan - think of it this way (though not an exact analogy): you can't compare an attribute of an object to a whole object.  The two sides of the comparison need to be parallel.


----------



## panjandrum

Grammarian said:


> Let me bring us to a definitive answer.
> 
> "than me (him, her, them, us)" is incorrect according to formal "proper" grammar.
> "than I (he, she, they, we)" is correct according to formal "proper" grammar.
> 
> People commonly misuse this, just like they commonly mis-say "I'm doing good" when they mean "I'm doing well".
> 
> If you're a computer science fan - think of it this way (though not an exact analogy): you can't compare an attribute of an object to a whole object. The two sides of the comparison need to be parallel.


Hello Grammarian, and welcome to WordReference.

I object to your use of misuse and mis-say, and also to your equating the _"than me" or "than I"_ discussion and the _"I'm doing good" or "I'm doing well" _discussion. You might as well seek to equate it with the _"I should of went home early" ..._ discussion.

I would also like to suggest that it is not always appropriate to bring computer science rigour to bear in the realm of English usage.


----------



## Grammarian

Hello to you too, and thank you for the welcome.

Allow me to clarify,

I did not "equate" the two (perphaps I should have said "like" instead of "just like"). My meaning was that when people say "...than me," it is a grammatical (1) error, albeit a commonly accepted one, just as "I'm doing good" is a grammatical (1) error, albeit a commonly accepted one.

Often, people claim that "than me" is correct, on the basis that it is commonly used. While I agree that common usage can define "a grammar" in a linguistic sense, I mean(t) to answer the "proper" grammar question.

When I say misuse and mis-say, I mean that the majority of people are unwittingly breaking grammar rules. Yes, yes - I know that they are trying to speak in a colloquial form, which is fine, but not "proper."  Perhaps I should use another word, but it gets difficult to tip-toe around these things at some point.

Addressing the second point, I agree that computer science rigour is not always appropriate. In the case of this analogy, though, I find it offers a highly suitable analogy (one that has helped others understand some of the issues involved in this case).

While I'm at the podium, let me also posit that if one uses these "correct" forms, one will notice that one's ear adjusts very quickly, and soon "than me/him/her/etc.)" sound incorrect.

(1) according to formal/proper rules (for lack of a better term)


----------



## lsp

Grammarian said:


> Let me bring us to a definitive answer.


With all due respect, and a sincere welcome, why are you more qualified to do that than any of the previous posters?


----------



## Grammarian

because that is the answer.


----------



## Grammarian

In all seriousness though, you have every right to question my (and everyone else's) authority on the matter. Clearly, others have responded authoritatively on the topic, and, in my view, have been incorrect.

I have researched the topic, studied it academically, and have debated it in many a time. In the way I've answered it, at least, I believe there is little or no room for debate. However, you do point out, indirectly, that I have offered no source for my knowledge. If only I had my eigth grade English grammar book handy, I could cite everyone the chapter. However, I do not. All I can ask is that everyone feels convinced by my seemingly authoritative and knowledgeable declaration and stance.

Again, please note, I never said that "than me" is not "accepted" in colloquial english.


----------



## caballoschica

You confuse me, honestly.  You talk about having academically debated it many a time and yet you say you don't have your eighth grade English grammar book with you.  If you have debated it so seriously in an academic atmosphere, couldn't you come up with a better source than an eighth grade grammar book? 

And of course, Welcome.


----------



## Grammarian

Why use a bazooka to kill an ant?

This is a topic one would encounter in an eighth grade (probably lower) english class. I at least did. I could go look for my college textbooks, but honestly, we didn't cover this in my college literature class.

I do not have my eighth grade english book with me because eighth grade for me was over a decade ago, and I did not own my textbook (though I wish I had a copy now).

I also never said I debated it seriously - please don't put words in my mouth. I said that I have research the topic, studied it academically, and have debated it many times -- all of which are true.


----------



## okey-dokey

Eugens said:


> I found this sentence in a text that is an example of the ones given in the FCE examinations:
> "Many of them are in the same situation as me, so we have lots to talk about."
> 
> Shouldn't it be in this sentence too:"Many of them are in the same situation as I (am)"? Is the meaning of the sentence modified when the case of the pronoun is changed, here as well?


 
No, it is not wrong becuase the FCE target language is the standard language. People do not go around saying _than I_ (in the area in which I lived - London, and I think most of the UK). Of course, one can use _than I_ and listeners would think one speaks _very proper_ - but it would be non-standard.


----------



## KBear

English is a living language, and "proper" use should be defined by how it is really used and understood. Technicalities based on applying rules from ancestral languages smack of L'Academie.
So, I tend to agree with those who want to say both are correct. What I mean is, "Me too" (or is it "I, too" ??)


----------



## Grammarian

It all depends on what the question is. As I mentioned, in this sense, I interpret the question to be: "what is the 'textbook-proper' way to say this?"
Most people can listen to a few conversations and understand that people predominantly use "than me."
The confusion here had to do with preposition functionality vs. comparative structure.
While it may smack of L'Academie, I think that nonetheless it's important to learn the "textbook-proper" way of saying things. For me, at least, it's easy to transition into the vernacular, but it's not as easy to speak "properly" when the situation requires (formal job interview, etc.), without training the ear.

There are many non-native speakers who use this forum, and so they often may be looking for what the vernacular is. However, the question that started this thread seemed to be from someone with at least a decent understanding of grammatical structure and the language.

And yes, as you alluded, It's "I too", haha.


----------



## gingerr

hi. can we say "I am as tall as she" OR "I am as tall as she is"  instead of "I am as tall as her."? thank you for your helps.


----------



## panjandrum

Yes, indeed we can - and indeed many would say that we must, that "I am as tall as her," is not correct.

However, that is a very concise summary by one person.

You should make up your own mind.  All the information necessary to inform your decision, or to confuse you totally, is contained in this thread.  

Good luck.


----------



## jonquiliser

Pheeew, what a marathon! Anyway, one more doubt: is it the same (i.e., a matter of choice, taste and/or [supposed] register) if followed by a pronoun such as "who"? For example, "She knew so much more than [I? me?], who had no idea." (Although perhaps not the most stylistically elegant way of putting it, I take it it is possible to construe a phrase like that.)


----------



## liliput

"I am older than he is." is the correct grammatical form.
"I am older than him" is more common in everyday speech but not strictly grammatically correct.


----------



## liliput

> Pheeew, what a marathon! Anyway, one more doubt: is it the same (i.e., a matter of choice, taste and/or [supposed] register) if followed by a pronoun such as "who"? For example, "She knew so much more than [I? me?], who had no idea." (Although perhaps not the most stylistically elegant way of putting it, I take it it is possible to construe a phrase like that.)


No. You wouldn't use this construction. 
"She knew more than I did, I had no idea." would be correct.
"She knew more than me, I had no idea" would be more common in everyday speech, but as I and others have pointed out, this is not considered grammatically correct.


----------



## jonquiliser

liliput said:


> No. You wouldn't use this construction.
> "She knew more than I did, I had no idea." would be correct.
> "She knew more than me, I had no idea" would be more common in everyday speech, but as I and others have pointed out, this is not considered grammatically correct.



Oh? I just heard it (on Simpsons ) so I thought it would be possible. (Not that the Simpsons is my main linguistic role model..) But well, if you say it's wrong.


----------



## liliput

> Oh? I just heard it (on Simpsons ) so I thought it would be possible. (Not that the Simpsons is my main linguistic role model..) But well, if you say it's wrong.


Far be it from me to argue with that great institution, maybe it's possible.


----------



## Embokias

Although most people only use the object pronouns after "than" in informal speech, the subject pronouns are sometimes more correct to use.  Consider the following cases:
Laura likes Bill more than me. (Laura likes Bill more than Laura likes me.)
Laura likes Bill more than I. (Laura likes Bill more than I like Bill.)


----------



## Packard

Outsider said:


> Thank you very much!
> So, if I understand well, "I am older than he" is considered preferable in traditional grammar because this sentence is understood as a short form of "I am older than he *is*", right?
> 
> "I am older than he" = "I am older than he (is)."


 

I agree.  You saved me the typing.

"I'm smarter than he."  (I'm smarter than he is.)

[This sounds odd in the same way that "this is he" sounds odd].


----------



## jennball

It seems logical to keep 'I' in these sentences because when you add the missing 'am', 'I' is in the nominative case. I think that is how it is done in Latin and German. However, English is not Latin and I would never say 'I am older than he' or 'He is older than I'.  I have also rarely heard it. If people who believe it is grammatically correct can't bear to say it and cringe when they hear it, then in real life, is it really correct? I think 'me/him' is idiomatic in American English.


----------



## UKlinguist

older than I is the ONLY correct form.  Older than you, he, she, it, we, they - THAN is not a prepostion.

Older than me is heard colloquially but is grammatically incorrect


----------



## liliput

Embokias makes a good point:


> Although most people only use the object pronouns after "than" in informal speech, the subject pronouns are sometimes more correct to use. Consider the following cases:
> Laura likes Bill more than me. (Laura likes Bill more than Laura likes me.)
> Laura likes Bill more than I. (Laura likes Bill more than I like Bill.)


Using "me" in this case changes the meaning.
"Older than I" and "smarter than he" do sound strange but that doesn't mean it's correct to say "older than me" or smarter than him". However, I do think it's a mistake to drop the verb from the end:
It is correct to say "older than I* am*", "smarter than he *is*", and "likes Bill more than I *do*". I think this correct construction doesn't sound at all odd and is almost as common in everyday speech as the incorrect "than me", "than him", etc. I recommend that everybody uses this structure as much as I do.


----------



## timpeac

UKlinguist said:


> older than I is the ONLY correct form. Older than you, he, she, it, we, they - THAN is not a prepostion.
> 
> Older than me is heard colloquially but is grammatically incorrect


You're not right. "The boss annoys Bill more than her" is "grammatically correct if you mean "The boss annoys Bill more than the Boss annoys her". With this meaning "she" would actually be wrong since "the boss annoys Bill more than she" would mean "the boss annoys Bill more than she annoys Bill".


----------



## Forero

I agree completely with GenJen's post.

I will also add that, in informal spoken English where I come from, we tend to use "me" as a disjunctive, that is wherever it is not used to determine the "person" of a finite verb.  This tendency is so strong, that those who attempt to follow the Latin/18th cent. rule tend to "overcorrect" by using "I" except as a simple object, saying things like "between you and I" or even "John and I's house".  Needless to say, we don't do this in formal writing or oratory.

Formally, I prefer to make the subject/object distinction and to include a verb (usually only an auxiliary) when using a subjective pronoun:  "... than I do".


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## Tristano

liliput said:


> Embokias makes a good point:
> 
> Using "me" in this case changes the meaning.
> "Older than I" and "smarter than he" do sound strange but that doesn't mean it's correct to say "older than me" or smarter than him". However, I do think it's a mistake to drop the verb from the end:
> It is correct to say "older than I* am*", "smarter than he *is*", and "likes Bill more than I *do*". I think this correct construction doesn't sound at all odd and is almost as common in everyday speech as the incorrect "than me", "than him", etc. I recommend that everybody uses  (use - subjunctive) this structure as much as I do.



I believe it is clear that the only choice is "I"

He is taller than I, bigger than I, faster than I. 
This does not sound strange to me!

Tristano


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## Forero

The fact is that the English language has centuries of competing traditions in the area of  _I_ vs. _me_.  What is taught in most schools as "correct" is the standard for formal writing, which generally follows a Latin model of nominative _I_, oblique _me_.  However, most speakers (in speaking) follow something more like a French model of _I_ as a sole subject, but _me_ as a disjunctive or stressed form.  Now many speakers have taken up using _I_ where _me_ is the norm in both of these models, presumably from "over-correction", replacing all instances of disjunctive/stressed _me_ with _I_.

"Woe is me" is a fixed expression that harkens back to a time when prepositions were less common.  The meaning is "woe is unto me", not "woe is what I am".


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## bling boy

To respond to: Than me or than I.... than he, etc. 

I totally agree with TRISTANO!!!!

However, since English is an evolving language... I have heard sentences that will make your hair curl...and The Simpsons is an ideal example of "bad US English" usage! 

BB


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## liliput

Tristano said:


> I believe it is clear that the only choice is "I"
> 
> He is taller than I, bigger than I, faster than I.
> This does not sound strange to me!
> 
> Tristano


 
In a grammar exam the only choice may be "I", but things are not so clear-cut when it comes to actual usage. If they were, there wouldn't be so many contrary opinions in this thread.

I'm certain that the majority of people in the UK, and apparently a significant number of people in the US, would be uncomfortable pronouncing this kind of structure; even those who believe it to be grammatically correct. Personally, I believe the grammatically correct form is "He's taller than I am". 

"He's taller than I _am_" makes more sense anyway, because you wouldn't say "I is tall" nor "I tall". "He's taller than me" and "He's taller than I am" are both considerably more common in spoken English, at least in the UK. 

To go back to the thread's original sample sentence "I am older then he" sounds almost Shakespearean to me - I can't imagine any of my contemporaries using it seriously.

Thank-you for the correction by the way. You're right, it should be the subjunctive "use" not "uses". Unfortunately you made the same typo in your correction.


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## liliput

I came across the following in the OED online:



> ...for most native speakers the supposed ‘correct’ form sounds stilted and is almost never used. It would perhaps be more accurate to say that objective personal pronouns are now used in all cases where the pronoun is not explicitly subjective, and it is therefore acceptable to say _she’s taller than him_ and _I didn’t do as well as her_.


 
The full explanation is here:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/personalpronoun?view=uk


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## Packard

And then there was the the Margaret Landon book, "Anna and the King of Siam" that was later made into the musical movie "The King and Me" starring Yul Brenner.

(Or maybe it was "The King and I"???)


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## Ume

Hello.
http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Grammar-Usage-Penelope-Choy/dp/0155070576 
The book "Basic Grammar And Usage" says:
_In informal usage, you often hear people use object pronouns instead of subject pronouns in comparisons (for example, "He's taller than me" instead of "He's taller than I"). However, these forms are generally considered inappropriate in writing and formal speech._


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## sleepytako

Sorry to bump a year old thread for my first post, but I'm seriously stuck on this issue. I understand how "He is younger than I (am)" is correct. My question comes from using it with or in a question. For example,

Who is younger, he or I?

Thanks!


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## Embokias

sleepytako said:


> Sorry to bump a year old thread for my first post, but I'm seriously stuck on this issue. I understand how "He is younger than I (am)" is correct. My question comes from using it with or in a question. For example,
> 
> Who is younger, he or I?



It's still the same principle.  

If you believe that you should be saying "He is older than I," stick with He/I.  Who is younger, he or I?

If you believe that you should be saying "He is older than me," use Him/Me.
Who is younger, him or me?

I personally would use Him/Me because I believe that stressed pronouns standing alone should use the oblique case.  But it looks like you disagree, so you should probably go with He/I.


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## timpeac

Embokias said:


> It's still the same principle.
> 
> If you believe that you should be saying "He is older than I," stick with He/I.  Who is younger, he or I?
> 
> If you believe that you should be saying "He is older than me," use Him/Me.
> Who is younger, him or me?
> 
> I personally would use Him/Me because I believe that stressed pronouns standing alone should use the oblique case.  But it looks like you disagree, so you should probably go with He/I.


I completely agree with all of this.

The issue is not made more complicated by being a question - if you say "he is older than me" then "who is older, him or me?" is the form you want. If you say "he is older than I" then you would ask" who is older, he or I?"

Also in agreement with Embokias I would use the "me" form, and feel justified in doing so by the argument that this is not using a subject form where an object is needed but rather that "me" is the oblique or "pointing" form.

Learners should still be aware that some speakers of English would criticise the "me" form.


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## Loob

sleepytako said:


> My question comes from using it with or in a question. For example,
> 
> Who is younger, he or I?


Well, here's my answer....

I would find it impossible to say "Who is younger, he or I?"

In informal situations, I would say "Who is younger, him or me?"

In more formal situations, I would avoid the problem by asking the question in a different way.



PS: I think the problem is more difficult with an either/or question, as there is no compromise option on the lines of "he is older than I am".


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## Porteño

Loob said:


> Well, here's my answer....
> 
> I would find it impossible to say "Who is younger, he or I?"
> 
> In informal situations, I would say "Who is younger, him or me?"
> 
> In more formal situations, I would avoid the problem by asking the question in a different way.
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I think the problem is more difficult with an either/or question, as there is no compromise option on the lines of "he is older than I am".


 
I entirely agree with both. How nice it is to see both sides of the pond in agreement. It must be the Christmas Spirit! (mine's a single malt, thanks)


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## sleepytako

Thank you so much for helping me figure this out.

The teacher who I work with decided to use he/I for the example she wrote. If I wrote the content for this class I would have used him/me arguing that using me would be ok because it's more common in spoken English. 

A bit of background, this is the first introduction to a structure like this for a jr. high school level class. Should the extremely "correct" form be taught (he/I), or should the more common form be taught (he/me) might be off topic for this thread, but still an interesting question. I just wanted to make sure what I was teaching would be deemed correct.


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## blue bear

*I* think you shou*l*d use "*I *am older than him*.*" *T*he other part "*I* am older than he is*.*" *I* think that's right too.


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## timpeac

Porteño said:


> I entirely agree with both. How nice it is to see both sides of the pond in agreement. It must be the Christmas Spirit! (mine's a single malt, thanks)


Absolutely! A rare example of British and American English being in agreement! You don't see it often in these forums - a holidays' gift clearly.


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## timpeac

sleepytako said:


> Thank you so much for helping me figure this out.
> 
> The teacher who I work with decided to use he/I for the example she wrote. If I wrote the content for this class I would have used him/me arguing that using me would be ok because it's more common in spoken English.
> 
> A bit of background, this is the first introduction to a structure like this for a jr. high school level class. Should the extremely "correct" form be taught (he/I), or should the more common form be taught (he/me) might be off topic for this thread, but still an interesting question. I just wanted to make sure what I was teaching would be deemed correct.


What you outline is exactly the problem - from what I hear, the majority of native speakers would say "him/me" but if you make people stop and think then they might well say the "he/I" form is correct. Unfortunately, and unfairly, native speakers can get away with things that learners can't. I mean by that that I think a non-native would be more likely to be criticised than a native for saying "him/me". I think if you're teaching people then you should probably teach the "I" form, although this may not be what the majority of English speakers would say!


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## Loob

sleepytako said:


> Should the extremely "correct" form be taught (he/I), or should the more common form be taught (he/me) might be off topic for this thread, but still an interesting question.


My answer would be different from Tim's.  I really couldn't bring myself to teach the "he/I" version, as I don't think it _is '_correct' - in the sense of 'natural'. For the constructions with _than, as_ etc, I would tell the students what they're most likely to hear, explain the difficulty, and teach them the compromise version (_than I am etc_). I don't think I'd raise "Who is younger, him/he or me/I?" *at all*;  if the issue came up, I'd advise students to avoid it....


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## Packard

Loob said:


> Well, here's my answer....
> 
> I would find it impossible to say "Who is younger, he or I?"
> 
> In informal situations, I would say "Who is younger, him or me?"
> 
> In more formal situations, I would avoid the problem by asking the question in a different way.
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I think the problem is more difficult with an either/or question, as there is no compromise option on the lines of "he is older than I am".


 
I also write around problems with grammar and spelling.

The either/or succumbs to writing around too; it requires duplicating the phrase:

_*Either she is older than I am, or she is younger than I am; either she's either a cougar or I'm a dirty old man.*_


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## Roscio

English Language used to have a case system. Nouns and adjectives had different endings depending on the role they were playing in the sentence. Pronouns were irregular and differed in form with more than just endings. Over time, as the language has undergone changes, the endings became blurred, just like _*who*_ and _*whom*_ distinction is blurred. If you ask a native English speaker, most – if they even heard of _*whom*_ at all – would say that whom sounds "stuffy". Since pronoun forms were too different from each other, their different forms have survived into modern English usage. Although, if the invention of the printing press and the advent of the public education would have been delayed for several centuries, pronouns would probably also have one form. "Boo hoo! Me'll die!" was something a commoner in old English could say. Just like how we have *I*/*me*, *he*/*him*, *she*/*her*, *we*/*us*, *they*/*them*, the pronoun "you" used to have two forms as well: *ye*/*you*. It has long become the rule of Standard English: using "you" in both cases and we don not argue about it. The form "ye", however, is not dead and is used in some dialects of English.
That fact is, grammarians since the times of Middle English could never agree on how to use the pronouns and were not always consistent.
_He is taller than *I*_ OR _He is taller than *me*_, in terms of comparison it is the speaker's and the writer's choice which one to use.

However, if you want to be formal, use _He is taller than *I*_. The word order is set so using the wrong case will not change the meaning very much. We remember grammar rules best when a difference in usage is also a difference in meaning and I have a classic example for this occasion.

What we talking about here is called _*Elliptical Clause*_. That is, instead of repeating all the words that came before the word _*than*_, the writer/speaker only writes the words they are comparing.

Jim likes her better than *me*. (Jim likes her better that Jim likes *me*.)   Jim likes us: she > I
Jim likes her better than *I*.    (Jim likes her better than *I* like her.)       We like her: Jim > I


The two sentences have a different meaning. Most English speakers will say the two sentences some other way to avoid confusion.
In some cases, Subject–Object agreement laws are completely disobeyed because they sound odd.
_*He *wants to talk to you now! <Who? *him*?> _In this case, it should be *he*, but it never is!
_It was *you*, wasn't it?! ! <Who? *me*?>   _      In this case, it should be *I*, but it never is!
_It is *I*! _BUT_ It's *me*_!                                    It should be _it's *I*_, but most people would think you are saying_ It's all right!
Karent and *I*_. BUT _*Me* and Karen_.                It should be _*I* and Karen_, but no one ever says that. Either respect Karen, or talk like everybody else.
>>It is either _She and I are friends_ OR _Me and her are friends_ 
>>and most recently, I also heard _Her and I are friends_ by people who TAUGHT themselves to always say _*I *_after *and* in every case, but not fixing the rest of the sentence, resulting in a mix of pronouns. The same people would say: _There are no secrets between Jim and *I*.

_The bottom line is this: If we talk about what sounds right, then we have to ask the question: to whom?!
Seeing my friend approaching, I would say to others "That's she!" and it sounds right to me.
To my friend, saying: _Her and I saw the game last night. You should have came with my friend and I_.
When I explain the two accepted alternatives: _She and I_ or _Me and her_, she says they sound weird to her and she is not used to speaking like that.
Something sounding right being the reason for it to be correct is as much true as something feeling right is the reason why we do it. It's really lawlessness. >>>But YES! _*He is taller than I. *_&* I am older than he. *are the OFFICIALLY correct forms, albeit UNPOPULAR. To please everybody, repeat the copula (to be) after the pronoun: *He is taller than I am. *&* I am older than he is.*

Yes. I agree with you. But it is the change in notion of how the word functions that makes people want to say it "incorrectly".
<< Comment on second language removed. >> In English you will say "this is *my* pen" and "this pen is *mine*". Hmm? Why did the change in word order change the form of the possessive adjective? Probably the reasoning is that an adjective must be followed by a noun. If it is not, then it stands alone, and the form should be different. It is the placement that makes a difference, apparently, to some English speakers. Same goes for orthography. Unless the word is borrowed from another language or abbreviated, no English word ends with an "i" or a "c". The history of *my*/*mine* is similar to the history of *a*/*an*. "*Mine* eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" (The truth is marching on, 1861) shows that *my* & *a* were used in front of a consonant, and *mine* & *an* in front of a vowel. In antiquity, only _*mine*_ & *an* existed. If *my* turns into *mine* when it is the last word of the sentence, is it not logical for an English speaker to turn *I *into *me* when it is in the beginning or in the end of the sentence? This makes the language, however, harder to learn because with the advent of my/mine the forms *hers*, *ours*, *yours*, *theirs* were created. And what do those s's do? Are they possession markers like "Tom's" and "its" (which was also invented, both he and it had possessive "his")? But the r's are already possessive markers. And on top that, "a friend of theirs". The last word has a three possessive markers. 1(of) 2(suffix -r) 3(suffix -s). What is funny is that no one argues about that. It is accepted as a normal rule in English. So why can't *"Me *_and John are better than _*him."* be made into a legitimate paradigm? No one will ever reply to a statement _"_*He *wants to talk to you." with "Who? *He*?". And when someone accuses someone of something: "It was *you*! Wasn't it?!" they never say "Who? *I*?". And how are we not encouraged to say *me* in this case? After all, *you* has long abandoned its noun case partner *ye*. Why should we bother drawing strict Subject–Object distinctions when we can forget about getting the right form for *you* in case, as well as in number (i.e. *thou*/*thee* as singular and *ye*/*you* as plural and formal singular).


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## erjoalgo

sens figuré said:


> Hello, and welcome to the forum!
> 
> 
> 
> Here are two sample sentences:
> 
> _You and I_ have become great friends. (subject)
> 
> Please keep this discussion between you and me. (object)
> 
> I hope that helps!



I think you are wrong. 
Please keep this discussion between you and I.Keep this between you and I.
The object is the discussion.


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## Copyright

erjoalgo said:


> I think you are wrong.
> Please keep this discussion between you and I.Keep this between you and I.


I'm afraid you are wrong.


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## JulianStuart

erjoalgo said:


> I think you are wrong.
> Please keep this discussion between you and I.Keep this between you and I.
> The object is the discussion.


The discussion is the object of the verb "keep".  Between is a preposition and it also takes "objects" so we need him and me.


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## bharosey

Hi! I understand when "than" is used as a "conjunction". Can someone please advice what is "than" used for in the following sentence:

Jack weighs more than 80 kilograms.

Is "than" used as a preposition? Perhaps not..because in that case, "than" should have been followed by a noun/pronoun. But I don't think "80 kilograms" is a noun.

Please advice.


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## Florentia52

Have you looked at the definition of "than" in the WR dictionary, bharosey? It may be helpful.

And why don't you think "kilograms" is a noun? What part of speech would you say it is?

Please *advice*. 
Please *advise*.


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## bharosey

Thanks. That is because "80 kilograms" is an "attribute", so I thought it must be an adjective. Example:

Peter is smart.
Peter is 80 kilograms.

Should "smart" and "80 kilograms" not be both adjectives?

Please advise.


----------



## Forero

bharosey said:


> Thanks. That is because "80 kilograms" is an "attribute", so I thought it must be an adjective. Example:
> 
> Peter is smart.
> Peter is 80 kilograms.
> 
> Should "smart" and "80 kilograms" not be both adjectives?
> 
> Please advise.


"80 kilograms" is a noun phrase.

By the way, we usually say "Peter weighs 80 kilograms", not "Peter is 80 kilograms". But we might say "Peter is 80 kilograms in weight."


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## Copyright

Forero said:


> By the way, we usually say "Peter weighs 80 kilograms", not "Peter is 80 kilograms". But we might say "Peter is 80 kilograms in weight."


I (and others, I imagine) often use "is" when referring to height or weight: _Peter is 150 pounds. Peter is six foot two. Peter is six foot two and 150 pounds. _


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## WildWest

gotitadeleche said:


> Rebecca, Are you sure of this? Although "older than him" is commonly used, I think it is actually incorrect. I don't have access to my grammar books right now to check, but I believe that "older than he" is just a shorter way of saying "older than he is" and is the correct way of saying it.
> 
> "That girl is taller than her."
> "That girl is taller than she (is tall)"
> 
> This is how I remember learning it.



First things first, I'm not a native speaker.

I just wanted to say that I came across that structure many times before and jumped into the thread for this reason.
I learned it's called ellipsis. Please correct me if I'm wrong at some points.


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## vincix

@GenJen54
Can you actually conclude from "He has more friends than me" that he's got other friends too, that I'm not his only friend? Is that a normal English sentence? Do native speakers actually understand this sentence as you've explained it? I have my doubts, really.

As far as I'm concerned, "than _I_" is wrong, if there isn't a whole second clause there. The problem is quite simple, and Rebecca Hendry said it first.

He's taller than me - correct
he's taller than I - *hypercorrection*
He's taller than I am - correct

You shouldn't use the nominative form, because _than_ requires the accusative. This is basic grammar for me. So, unless there's another subordinate clause, using _I_ is wrong, i.e. unless a verb (NOT implicit) agrees with the subject.


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## Forero

vincix said:


> @GenJen54
> Can you actually conclude from "He has more friends than me" that he's got other friends too, that I'm not his only friend? Is that a normal English sentence? Do native speakers actually understand this sentence as you've explained it? I have my doubts, really.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, "than _I_" is wrong, if there isn't a whole second clause there. The problem is quite simple, and Rebecca Hendry said it first.
> 
> He's taller than me - correct
> he's taller than I - *hypercorrection*
> He's taller than I am - correct
> 
> You shouldn't use the nominative form, because _than_ requires the accusative. This is basic grammar for me. So, unless there's another subordinate clause, using _I_ is wrong, i.e. unless a verb (NOT implicit) agrees with the subject.


I can understand "He has more friends than me" either way. I would prefer "He has other friends than me" or "He has more friends than just me" for the meaning you are asking about and "He has more friends than I do" for the other meaning.


----------

