# Is there something wrong with the stuff made in China?



## purpledragon

> In our society, we close our eyes and ears to many difficult issues every day, made very easy for us by the sanitisation of such matters. I am thinking of our food, our clothing (made in Romania, China et al), our electrical goods...



Several days ago there was a discussion about one topic.There is one thing I can't understand.What's wrong with the stuff made in China?I have asked this question before, but since noboby answer that I have to mention it once again.


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## Hockey13

purpledragon said:


> Several days ago there was a discussion about one topic.There is one thing I can't understand.What's wrong with the stuff made in China?I have asked this question before, but since noboby answer that I have to mention it once again.


 
There is generally nothing wrong with the quality of it. The matter at hand is _how_ the stuff is sometimes made. The inexpensive labor has always raised a few eyebrows and reports of the use of children and sweat shops to produce some things is viewed by many as a gross violation of human rights. I don't think this person was necessarily scolding specifically the Chinese government, but everyone involved in the process. The issue is obviously very complex, and the accusers are often not vastly morally superior to the accused, if at all.


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## ireney

I agree with Hockey but I have to add this: There's always a country in which very cheap stuff is made and for things to be ridiculously cheap, not only the workers are not paid enough money etc but also the quality of the components making the product is not the best. 
This does not mean that everything from this country X is of bad quality. It only means that this country has cornered the market of bad quality products.

Now, most things that arrive here from China are very cheap. Most are not very cheap because of their bad quality but because of the wages and so on and so forth. Some however, the extremely cheap ones, are also of bad quality. We have our local bad quality products but the Chinese ones have sort of ousted them.

Anyone wanting to buy a steam iron i.e. for a thent of the usual price is setting himself to be dupped if you ask me. No matter what the wages and work conditions, a tenth of the price means bad quality. 

What I'm getting at is that there are Chinese products of bad quality. Just as there are Greek, American etc products of bad quality. It's just that, at least here, we see more of the former than the latter. This has nothing to do with the overall quality of the Chinese products.

The issue that Hockey raised however is a completely different one and it is to this matter that the post purpledragon quoted refers to (trust me to write convulted phrases).


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## fenixpollo

I disagree that quality or price are the issue. It's about nationalism and protectionism.

People who complain about the quantity/quality/price of products made in China are in reality worried about jobs and the home economy. They realize that whatever we buy that was made in China, is one thing more that wasn't made here.  They're expressing their stress about globalization, which often hurts their local economies.  But, instead of expressing their worry as "I wish we would make products here", they say "I wish we wouldn't make these products in China" -- which often comes out as, "look at the crap they're making in China."

Of course, many of us are familiar with the comedian's line: for every American who says "look at the crap they make in China!", there's a Chinese factory worker saying "look at the crap they buy in the U.S.!"


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## Chaska Ñawi

Actually, I would say that price is partly the issue.  The North American consumers demand cheap goods  - the Chinese are willing to supply them.  Instead of it being a supply-and-demand issue, it's a demand-and-supply issue.  (There are plenty of people around here who complain about unemployment, but nevertheless buy cheap imports at Walmart instead of the made-at-home version.)

There are also concerns in human rights circles that some of the very cheapest products exported by China are produced by prisoners who receive no wages for this work.

That said, I agree with Brother Pollo's explanation of the way many people express their worry.


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## don maico

Its not all crap btw. Some av and hifi is of very good quality. UK manufacturers source many of their products from China putting their own badges on them Nothing wrong with components either but due to cheap labour they maximise profits - the products are not exactly cheap here.
Nike , who manufacture their footware in 
China and other Asian countries, pay about 20 p( 35 cents) per pair of shoes to their workers and in turn these are sold in the UK for £40  or more( $70) Gross explotation!
Some interesting reading in here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ethicalbusiness/story/0,14713,1459135,0

Here are some typical prices:
http://www.jjbsports.com/fw/fwml/fwmn/


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## natasha2000

fenixpollo said:


> I disagree that quality or price are the issue. It's about nationalism and protectionism.People who complain about the quantity/quality/price of products made in China are in reality worried about jobs and the home economy. They realize that whatever we buy that was made in China, is one thing more that wasn't made here. They're expressing their stress about globalization, which often hurts their local economies.


 
Same thing in Spain. Spanish manufacturers, especially of footwear and textile, simply cannot compete with China products. They are much cheaper and of acceptable quality. Some time ago, in village Elche, some wearhouses with chinese goods were destroyed by angry and unsatisfied Spanish shop keepers (source in Spanish). Here's another article (in Spanish) which says that in 2003, some 8000 jobs were destroyed thanks to cheap textil from China, and that until 2010, some 72000 more jobs are in danger.

Nevertheless, I don't see the future in destroying Chinese goods, or in prohibiting its importation, but in restreucturing the whole approach to the production and manufacturing, and adapting to the new tendencies such as total liberalization of the market. The times of monopolies are getting each time closer to its end.


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## Hutschi

Hi, in the Internet, CDs made in China were available. Some were sold in Germany. The seller was brought to court because of copyright infringement. But she didn't hurt any copyright. The CDs or DVDs were originals from Chinese. They even had confirmations and holograms. But the German court imprisoned the seller at first, and then wants to sentence her. This was just, because the GVU thinks, that all coiming from China is wrong by definition. Very strange. I read it in the CT.

They say something like: We cannot see what is original and what is copy. If it looks like an original, it must be a very good copy. 

Best regards
Bernd

http://www.heise.de/ct/06/22/102/

The article is in German language.


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## Paulfromitaly

Hockey13 said:


> There is generally nothing wrong with the quality of it.



I have to strongly disagree with you, mate.
In addition to the very important issue of getting children to work for not much more than a piece of a bread a day, the problems with Chinese stuff which police confiscate in Italy are:
*
- extremely poor quality* (the only acceptable goods are clothing, every other kind of products that are sold at a really low price are crap).
*- very dangerous products* (electric and electronic devices are usually done without complying with the basic safety regulations; medicines or what they claim to sell as medicines are usually just stinky unguents or stained pills, never mind fireworks or stuff like that.)
- *Copyright violation *( forgery ) There are loads of Italian companies which have taken Chinese companies to the court: not only they have tried to sell registered trademark and patent products illegally produced in China, but they did it using a counterfeit  trademark !!
- *Copy of the CE mark* (*CE* marking is a declaration by the manufacturer that the product meets all the appropriate provisions of the relevant legislation implementing certain European Directives. CE marking gives companies easier access into the European market to sell their products without adaptation or rechecking. The initials "CE" do not stand for any specific words but are a declaration by the manufacturer that his product meets the requirements of the applicable European Directives. CE mark); their own bogus mark CE (*C*hina *E*xport), which looks just slightly different from the original one, has been invented just in order to deceive European customers.

http://resources.alibaba.com/article/4113/Counterfeiting_in_China_common_practices_and_cures.htm


The above comments do not apply to *original* Chinese products, *legally* sold in Italy or in any other country.


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## Hockey13

Paulfromitaly said:


> I have to strongly disagree with you, mate.
> In addition to the very important issue of getting children to work for not much more than a piece of a bread a day, the problems with Chinese stuff which police confiscate in Italy are:
> 
> *- extremely poor quality* (the only acceptable goods are clothing, every other kind of products that are sold at a really low price are crap).
> *- very dangerous products* (electric and electronic devices are usually done without complying with the basic safety regulations; medicines or what they claim to sell as medicines are usually just stinky unguents or stained pills, never mind fireworks or stuff like that.)
> - *Copyright violation *( forgery ) There are loads of Italian companies which have taken Chinese companies to the court: not only they have tried to sell registered trademark and patent products illegally produced in China, but they did it using a counterfeit trademark !!
> - *Copy of the CE mark* (*CE* marking is a declaration by the manufacturer that the product meets all the appropriate provisions of the relevant legislation implementing certain European Directives. CE marking gives companies easier access into the European market to sell their products without adaptation or rechecking. The initials "CE" do not stand for any specific words but are a declaration by the manufacturer that his product meets the requirements of the applicable European Directives. CE mark); their own bogus mark CE (*C*hina *E*xport), which looks just slightly different from the original one, has been invented just in order to deceive European customers.
> 
> http://resources.alibaba.com/article/4113/Counterfeiting_in_China_common_practices_and_cures.htm
> 
> 
> The above comments do not apply to *original* Chinese products, *legally* sold in Italy or in any other country.


 
You're right, of course, when it comes to bootlegs, but we make those here as well. There are quite a large number of products in my room here that have "Made in China" written on them that work extremely well or are of very good quality. I believe the "Made in China" = "Bootlegged in China" as a standard rule is simply untrue now that many multinational corporations have put their manufacturing plants in China. They are trying to save on wages while producing the same product they did in their home countries.


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## Paulfromitaly

Hockey13 said:


> You're right, of course, when it comes to bootlegs, but we make those here as well. There are quite a large number of products in my room here that have "Made in China" written on them that work extremely well or are of very good quality. I believe the "Made in China" = "Bootlegged in China" as a standard rule is simply untrue now that many multinational corporations have put their manufacturing plants in China. They are trying to save on wages while producing the same product they did in their home countries.



There's an important matter, though: if the American company XYZ decides to move its manufacturing plants in China just to save up on the cost of labour, we might agree or disagree with this decision from an ethical point of view, being rather sure that children or extremely underpaid workers will be employed and exploited.
This marketing choice, however, will not influence the final products quality because the standard of the stuff will always have to comply with American standards, if sold with an American trademark.
What happens with products illegally bootlegged by Chinese companies, on the other hand, is that what they produce has to be damn cheap, therefore the raw materials are of really poor quality, there's no observance of the safety regulations and there's no quality control.
The final result is something which is likely to crack in your hands the first time you use it.


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## invictaspirit

It's a Catch 22. Over 400 million European consumers have gigantic purchasing power and demand cheap goods. Nowhere is this more noticeable than textiles and footwear. H&M, Zara, Mango, Next etc etc... It's fashionable to treat fashion as disposable...wearable Kleenex. 

Not all consumers want to pay the prices generated by 'Made in Europe' goods but we complain when our cheap Chinese product doesn't last long and we rage about the Chinese companies who can get away with paying their workers two Euro a day, paying povery-wages but undercutting our nice, modern, well-paying European factories. We can't have it both ways. Either pay up, or buy Asian.

The Chinese seem to make OK electronics but I am not convinced about the general quality of many Chinese imports, not the frantic efforts to knock them out as quickly as possible, while paying workers as little as possible, that goes on in China.

I get annoyed though at the suggestion that the Chinese are somehow brilliant businesspoeple and industrialists. They are not. It's a simple matter of realising that hundreds of millions of Chinese people expect to be paid $5 a day and hundreds of millions of Europeans and Americans expect to be paid $200 a day. At Chinese labour costs, even I could make money. China reminds me of Britain during the industrial revolution in the 1800s: gargantuan profits, low wages, massive pollution, and the rest of the world griping.


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## JamesM

It is not particular to China, but in any country where there is such a disparity in wages and pricing with a trading country, certain situations develop.

I'm aware of a situation where a manufacturer in China guaranteed a certain performance of a product.  The product is failing in large quantities throughout the U.S.  The U.S. company will have to replace all the shoddy product because they are liable by U.S. law for its performance.  However, suing the Chinese company in order to get either product that works correctly or compensation for the costs incurred will do no good.  The Chinese company cannot afford such a lawsuit and will immediately declare bankruptcy, leaving the U.S. company with no recourse for their loss.

China is just the current name associated with this kind of uneven arrangement.  From what I hear, China will soon be outbid by Vietnam and Cambodia as the new cheapest spot to manufacture goods, and China will then be the latest country to deal with outsourcing of jobs to another country able to underbid them on price.


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## ElaineG

I remember when I was a little kid, "Made in Japan" had similar connotations to "Made in China" now.  Japanese products were supposed to be cheaply produced, rinky-dink, not last long -- just a cheap substitute for American or European goods.  

In just a few years, that image completely changed -- by the time I was a slightly older kid, everybody wanted a Sony Walkman, and soon Japanese names like Sony, Nintendo, etc. were _the_ brands in innovative high-quality electronics and entertainment.

Japanese cars went through a similar transformation.

I expect that as the Chinese economy matures, it will go through a similar transformation.


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## maxiogee

invictaspirit said:


> I get annoyed though at the suggestion that the Chinese are somehow brilliant businesspoeple and industrialists. They are not. It's a simple matter of realising that hundreds of millions of Chinese people expect to be paid $5 a day and hundreds of millions of Europeans and Americans expect to be paid $200 a day. At Chinese labour costs, even I could make money. China reminds me of Britain during the industrial revolution in the 1800s: gargantuan profits, low wages, massive pollution, and the rest of the world griping.



Yes, and would you want to see Britain going back to those days? 
Those gargantuan profits and massive pollution weren't only built on low wages, they were built on Dickensian human misery and destitution for those those who couldn't find work. The fabric of British society would probably have unravelled if it weren't for the Empire, a source of steady 'employment' for the army and a ready market for the cheap goods.

Are we, by supporting trade with China, exploiting her people, or are we helping to bring them the benefits of 'modernity'?
When China ceases to be a low wage economy the market will source it's low-cost goods elsewhere.


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## don maico

This site sells now well regarded Chinese electronics:
http://www.chinese-hifi.co.uk/
There is no doubt that China has made great progress economically and its growing faster than any other nation. Its road infrastructure equals many in the west. More and more of its students are studying abroad. Yes there is a lot of exploitation and its penal system is barbaric but it would be wrong to assume that everything that is made there is inferior for some of it isnt.


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## Miguelillo 87

Paulfromitaly said:


> I have to strongly disagree with you, mate.
> In addition to the very important issue of getting children to work for not much more than a piece of a bread a day, the problems with Chinese stuff which police confiscate in Italy are:
> 
> *- extremely poor quality* (the only acceptable goods are clothing, every other kind of products that are sold at a really low price are crap).
> *- very dangerous products* (electric and electronic devices are usually done without complying with the basic safety regulations; medicines or what they claim to sell as medicines are usually just stinky unguents or stained pills, never mind fireworks or stuff like that.)
> - *Copyright violation *( forgery ) There are loads of Italian companies which have taken Chinese companies to the court: not only they have tried to sell registered trademark and patent products illegally produced in China, but they did it using a counterfeit trademark !!
> - *Copy of the CE mark* (*CE* marking is a declaration by the manufacturer that the product meets all the appropriate provisions of the relevant legislation implementing certain European Directives. CE marking gives companies easier access into the European market to sell their products without adaptation or rechecking. The initials "CE" do not stand for any specific words but are a declaration by the manufacturer that his product meets the requirements of the applicable European Directives. CE mark); their own bogus mark CE (*C*hina *E*xport), which looks just slightly different from the original one, has been invented just in order to deceive European customers.
> 
> http://resources.alibaba.com/article/4113/Counterfeiting_in_China_common_practices_and_cures.htm
> 
> 
> The above comments do not apply to *original* Chinese products, *legally* sold in Italy or in any other country.


I totally agree with you, I don't know how good is the nerchandise oyu get form china, but the chinese merchandise which arrive to mexico it's awful!!!!!

I mean it's bad quality and sometimes toxic!!!, Yes it's too much cheaper than the one which is made in Mexico or in US or in europe and that's why many people buy it, but as soon as they star to use thay relaize that the product is awful, I mean the some toys are toxic, or easyborken, Clothes and more tennis ¡awful! they broke by the first time oyu use them.
The only think I like form they are chinese articules as budas,dragins,curtainsm,jars, and some decorative articules.

ABout the copyright ¡Totally agre! Imagine thay have made copy of our guadalupe viergens in order to sell them in the basilica 8tha most important temple in mexico) 
Obviosly the one who has the fault are ourselves 'cause we buy thsi things!!!!


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## europeo

Paulfromitaly said:


> I have to strongly disagree with you, mate.
> In addition to the very important issue of getting children to work for not much more than a piece of a bread a day, the problems with Chinese stuff which police confiscate in Italy are:
> 
> *- extremely poor quality* (the only acceptable goods are clothing, every other kind of products that are sold at a really low price are crap).
> 
> - *Copyright violation *( forgery ) There are loads of Italian companies which have taken Chinese companies to the court: not only they have tried to sell registered trademark and patent products illegally produced in China, but they did it using a counterfeit trademark !!


Regarding these two points, there are literally thousands of forged, extremely poor quality Chinese goods for sale on the most well-known online auction website (you know the one I mean).
My friend foolishly bought what was advertised as an original top make guitar, and it turned out to be a totally unplayable, plywood fake piece of....
I've heard similar stories about other products bought directly from China (stereos, mobile phones, etc).


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## purpledragon

Thank you for your answer.


> China reminds me of Britain during the industrial revolution in the 1800s: gargantuan profits, low wages, massive pollution, and the rest of the world griping.


I feel the same thing.I guess every country has to pass this phase.There is one difference though, at that time there were no judgement from other countries and no rules had to follow.It is a bad time to be a developing country.Although other developed countries had done the same thing when they in this phase, you can't do it now because all the rules had been made.I want to say all the rules are made for backward countries.
*About the human right*:this the one of the rules we have to follow.I remember in the book _gone with the wind_ Scarlett also used prisoners to work for her.And in the prison of our country they do have to work but they have salary.The salary are not pay them monthly but give them when they finish their prison term as a fund for their new life. And they can buy some cigarette or individual things at the prison with this money.
*About the Copyright violation :*This is another rule.When our ancestor Cailun invented the tech to make paper and then this tech spread to other countries and everybody use it.But he didn't charge any copyright expense from other beneficiary.When China was an advanced country she didn't made such rules but when she  degenerates into a  third world country, everything changed.She has to obey all the rules make by those powerful nations. I have to confess I download some books and films in the Internet too.You have to understand when someone don't as rich as you guys may not have the idea to respect the copyright.Although I have a Master Degree, the salary of my job in Beijing is 2000 RMB/month(about 250 USD).Do you want to use 1/10 of your salary to buy some legal products? I choose to use the free resource in the Internet. Sometimes when you are poor you have to lower your moral standard.
*About the poor quality*We have the common sense that when you buy something dirt cheap you can not expect it has the same quality as an expensive one. There is a reason it is cheap.  Since the competion is globle nowadays, every country has to use his own superiority to win this game. What the superiority of China in this phase? Manpower resources.We don't have hi-tech,we don't have abundant of fund.We use the inexpensive product to complete the primitive accumulation of fund.Is it wrong?


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## Pivra

I hate products that are made in China, if a food is made in China... I think I'll die within 7 days after consuming.....(due to its poor quality). China is also causing problems in economical balance. Even though I live in Canada all my clothes are bought in Thailand and if I were to buy shirts over here I make sure that they are made in other countries. If everyone does the same thing as I do we can stop their economy from growing any further.


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## purpledragon

There are millions of people love Chinese food and they still alive.I hate this irresponsible opinion.If you want to say something,make sense.


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## natasha2000

Pivra said:


> I hate products that are made in China, if a food is made in China... I think I'll die within 7 days after consuming.....(due to its poor quality). China is also causing problems in economical balance. Even though I live in Canada all my clothes are bought in Thailand and if I were to buy shirts over here I make sure that they are made in other countries. If everyone does the same thing as I do we can stop their economy from growing any further.


 
Why should I want to stop the Chinese economy? And you? Is there something special that you, as a teenager living in Canada, have against Chinese economy?
If you don't like chinese food, then don't eat it, but don't spit on it, since there are other people who don't share your opinion. 




purpledragon said:


> There are millions of people love Chinese food and they still alive.I hate this irresponsible opinion.If you want to say something,make sense.


 
Take a look at the age of Pivra, and you'll understand...


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## Etcetera

Some fifteen years ago, when the Russian economy was suffering a deep crisis, there was a lot of cheap clothes from China in the markets. Their quality was very low, and still people were buying them, just because they hadn't money to buy something of higher quality - and for higher price. 
My family used to dress in these clothes, too. I remember wearing an anorak made in China. My first jeans were made in China. And even now, when I have the possibility to buy relatively expensive clothes from shops (not from markets), I still frown sometimes when I see the familiar "Made in China" label. But then, if I see that this or that piece of clothing is of high quality and looks good, why should I throw it away? What matters for me is the quality and the look of the clothes, not its country of origin. 

As for Chinese food, I've never tasted it, but I would like too.


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## almostfreebird

natasha2000 said:


> Why should I want to stop the Chinese economy? And you? Is there something special that you, as a teenager living in Canada, have against Chinese economy?
> If you don't like chinese food, then don't eat it, but don't spit on it, since there are other people who don't share your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take a look at the age of Pivra, and you'll understand...


 
Or maybe because pivra read these articles.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/pr2006/pr048-06.shtml 

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/disasters/28-02-2006/76614-chinese_pollution-0


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## Paulfromitaly

purpledragon said:


> *About the human right*:this the one of the rules we have to follow.I remember in the book _gone with the wind_ Scarlett also used prisoners to work for her.And in the prison of our country they do have to work but they have salary.The salary are not pay them monthly but give them when they finish their prison term as a fund for their new life. And they can buy some cigarette or individual things at the prison with this money.



We are not discussing about criminals' human rights here, but workers and children's rights!! and you're talking about a book set in the 1860's, south of USA, when the slavery was still legal..are you trying to tell us that everything is all right in China, just because it seems to be slightly better than what you read in the book "gone with the wind" ??



> *About the Copyright violation :*This is another rule.When our ancestor Cailun invented the tech to make paper and then this tech spread to other countries and everybody use it.But he didn't charge any copyright expense from other beneficiary.


You have a funny way to back up your words using historical events: by your opinion it's fair that Chinese companies don't respect any copyright rules because centuries ago your ancestor Cailun invented something and everybody else used it without asking him first? have you ever considered the fact that maybe, I'm not sure, but maybe when your ancestor Cailun did that, there was no copyright legislation?
Have you ever considered the fact that, according to your technique of backing up your ideas with events which took place ages ago, I, being Italian, could state that it'd be perfectly legal and fair if the Italian army invaded China, just because my ancestors, the glorious Romans, did the same all around what we now call Europe and even further??


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## natasha2000

almostfreebird said:


> Or maybe because pivra read these articles.
> 
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/pr2006/pr048-06.shtml
> 
> http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/disasters/28-02-2006/76614-chinese_pollution-0


 
The issue is NOT in what is said, but the WAY it is said...
Everyone is entitled to have its own opinion pro and contra almost everything. But there are ways to express it with respect.


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## purpledragon

> you're talking about a book set in the 1860's, south of USA, when the slavery was still legal..are you trying to tell us that everything is all right in China, just because it seems to be slightly better than what you read in the book "gone with the wind" ??


Come on.I never said what we did is right.I just said it is a phase every country should experience and when USA or other European countries pass the phase nobody judge them but when it is our turn it is a big deal. I wish you guys could take some patience since we all make that fault.


> We are not discussing about criminals' human rights here, but workers and children's rights!!


And you are not living in China, you don't know the living condition here.So do not judge us arbitrarily.


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## Paulfromitaly

purpledragon said:


> And you are not living in China, you don't know the living condition here.So do not judge us arbitrarily.



Judge??? 
Millions of other people around the world, politicians, journalists and I are not judging you, but just reporting *facts*:

Chinese companies often exploit and underpay workers and children, full stop.
About this *fact*, everybody can think whatever they want.


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## purpledragon

sorry,I misunderstood you.


> Chinese companies often exploit and underpay workers and children


How much they paid?And how much do you think is full-pay?


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## Paulfromitaly

purpledragon said:


> Then how much do you think is full-pay?



Once again: the point is not what *I* personally *think*, but what millions people think; apart from that, forcing children to work is never right, whatever salary you pay them.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator Note:  This thread is rapidly deteriorating from a polite debate into attack and counter-attack.  Please stay on topic, please maintain a reasoned debate, and please refrain from making assertions that you cannot explain or justify.

Thank you for your cooperation.


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## purpledragon

Sorry,mod.I can feel some gun powder smell too.After all it is a forum not battlefield.
There is another thing I want to say.When I was in primary school,I was taught that the working class was serious exploitated by the Capitalist in the western society and I totally believed it. I understand their working class have better lives than our people live in Socialist countriy when I grow up. So I guess sometimes we can't believe publications too much. They service the governments.


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## Mate

Right now, if we Argentinians should not have access to Chinese clothes perhaps half the population would go around naked. 

There are all sort of Chinese products being sold here. Not all of those are bad or even cheap. 

On the other hand it has to be said that most of this stuff is seen by most of our population as cheap, poor quality and short-lasting.

Please forgive my poor English. All corrections are welcome.

Cheers - Mate


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## Hutschi

Hi, I love Chinese food. The number of Chinese restaurants here is growing. 

After eating Thai and Chinese food for one week during vacation, my cholesterine values were stabilized and ok. My Doctor asked what I had done or changed, I said nothing. But than I recognized, the only thing I changed was to eat Chinese food instead of the usual European one for one week. 

I like Chinese people, and I know some personally. When I read Newspapers, I can compare what they are writing. We do not see the tree in our own eyes. As long as the discussions are like in Animal Farm (four legs are good, two legs are bad) there is something terribly wrong with our western culture.



Best regards
Bernd


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## konungursvia

China, like the USA, is guilty of "le dumping social". See _Le monde diplomatique_, janvier 2006.


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## fenixpollo

Mateamargo said:


> Right now, if we Argentinians did not have access to Chinese clothes perhaps half the population would go around naked.
> 
> There are all sorts of Chinese products being sold here. Not all of those are bad or even cheap.
> 
> On the other hand it has to be said that most of this stuff is seen by most of our population as cheap, of poor quality and short-lasting.
> 
> Please forgive my poor English. All corrections are welcome.
> 
> Cheers - Mate


Your English is great, Mateamargo. 


			
				Paul said:
			
		

> Once again: the point is not what *I* personally *think*, but what millions people think; apart from that, forcing children to work is never right, whatever salary you pay them.


 Do you think it because you have evidence, or because you believe the propaganda that is propagated by the media and protectionist organizations?  Or both?


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## Paulfromitaly

fenixpollo said:


> Do you think it because you have evidence, or because you believe the propaganda that is propagated by the media and protectionist organizations?  Or both?



It's not propaganda: ONU observers as well as press of any nationality report that; I personally have a couple of mates who had to go over to China to set up a new business in behalf of their company and when they told me what they had seen there, I had goose pimples...
More: there are Chinese community in Italy too: most of them set up firms illegally, they get only Chinese people to work there for 16/18 hours a day; slaves must sleep there to always keep an eye on the job; most of them came in Italy as illegal immigrants; the legal ones got their passport seized so that they can't escape from what the Italian police call "lager".
I'd be very careful before calling all this "propaganda".


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## ireney

purpledragon said:


> I feel the same thing.I guess every country has to pass this phase.There is one difference though, at that time there were no judgement from other countries and no rules had to follow.It is a bad time to be a developing country.Although other developed countries had done the same thing when they in this phase, you can't do it now because all the rules had been made.I want to say all the rules are made for backward countries.



Well, we do criticise these other countries for what they did back then though. If the situation is the same or similar enugh in China we (and I mean all, Chinese included) have a right to criticise China.



> *About the human right*:this the one of the rules we have to follow.I remember in the book _gone with the wind_ Scarlett also used prisoners to work for her.And in the prison of our country they do have to work but they have salary.The salary are not pay them monthly but give them when they finish their prison term as a fund for their new life. And they can buy some cigarette or individual things at the prison with this money.



There's a difference between this and making money out of prisoners by using them as full-time workers. I don't know if they volunteer for the work for starters. Is it voluntary? Can they opt not to work?



> *About the Copyright violation :*This is another rule.When our ancestor Cailun invented the tech to make paper and then this tech spread to other countries and everybody use it.But he didn't charge any copyright expense from other beneficiary.When China was an advanced country she didn't made such rules but when she  degenerates into a  third world country, everything changed.She has to obey all the rules make by those powerful nations. I have to confess I download some books and films in the Internet too.You have to understand when someone don't as rich as you guys may not have the idea to respect the copyright.Although I have a Master Degree, the salary of my job in Beijing is 2000 RMB/month(about 250 USD).Do you want to use 1/10 of your salary to buy some legal products? I choose to use the free resource in the Internet. Sometimes when you are poor you have to lower your moral standard.




Two different things here. First I see a little of the "When we were advanced you were backward people" logic here. It is prevailant in Greece two but at least no one has complained about copy-rights to the works of Aristotle or any theoretical or practical advance that other people took from the Greeks (yet; you never know )

As for the "do you buy bootleg since the pice of the legal product is high?" Well I haven't up to now although the prices are often too steep but that's not the issue. Those who infrindge the copy-right do not do it in a spirit of brotherhood of men in an effort to hit the bad capitalistic system that works the way it does; anyone who does it, no matter what his/her nationality, is a capitalist him/herself and want to make lots of money out of someone else's idea/work . A capitalist and a thief.



> *About the poor quality*We have the common sense that when you buy something dirt cheap you can not expect it has the same quality as an expensive one. There is a reason it is cheap.  Since the competion is globle nowadays, every country has to use his own superiority to win this game. What the superiority of China in this phase? Manpower resources.We don't have hi-tech,we don't have abundant of fund.We use the inexpensive product to complete the primitive accumulation of fund.Is it wrong?



From a strictly capitalistic point of view of "lessez faire, lessez passer" nothing wrong with it. From one tempered by such concerns as minimum wages, work conditions etc well it depends doesn't it? If the conditions are worse than what we consider standard here, if the wages are in comparison less than the minimum wages here, then yes, there is something wrong. Epsecially when we are talking about a communistic country.

I have seen some documentaries that show that the work conditions in many CHinese factories are not as good as in i.e. Greece and I have read that workers don't even have the right to form a union and go on a strike demanding better work conditions or whatever. I have heard the same from people who lived in China for a while.
I have no reason to disbelieve them (other than my general paranoia) but I will gladly admit they are wrong if you tell me otherwise


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## Kajjo

purpledragon said:


> There is one thing I can't understand.What's wrong with the stuff made in China?


Dear Purple Dragon,
I remember the recent thread you mentioned. Please do not take all that is said above as personal attacks. Some aspects might be simply wrong, others from a one-sided perspective, some might be true. 

You asked a plain question and thus you deserve a plain answer. There are several issues why importing certain goods, which were previously produced locally, from very far-away countries might be perceived as undesirable.

a) ENVIRONMENT: Transporting basic goods that could easily be produced here, is environmentally irresponsible. Thousands of flights and ships could be saved if such products were produced locally.

b) FINANCIAL: Importing such goods instead of producing them, creates a disadvantageous outward cash-flow to foreign countries which become increasingly competitive. 

c) SOCIAL: Importing goods instead of producing might increase the unemployment rate and increase the dependency from other countries.

d) HUMAN RIGHTS: Many people believe that Chinese industry employs children or does not ensure workers' health and social welfare to be up to European human rights standards. This issue is controversial and the perception varies individually.

e) QUALITY: While China certainly produces excellent quality products, too, many imported products like cheap shoes or electronic gadgets actually are of questionable quality.

f) COPYRIGHT: It is common knowledge that copyright infringements occur daily in China and are tolerated by the government. This forgery creates a negative attitude against Chinese products in general.

Kajjo


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## fenixpollo

Paulfromitaly said:


> I'd be very careful before calling all this "propaganda".


Not necessary, Paul. It's propaganda, and obviously very successful propaganda because you seem to feel very strongly about it. Here's my source (you can take it for what it's worth).


			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> Propaganda shares techniques with advertising and public relations. In fact, *advertising and public relations can be thought of as propaganda that promotes a commercial product or shapes the perception of an organization*, person or brand. A number of techniques which are based on research are used to generate propaganda. Many of these same techniques can be found under logical fallacies, since propagandists use arguments that, while sometimes convincing, are not necessarily valid.


 However, that doesn't mean that the propaganda that you are hearing is not valid, either -- that is, propaganda can be true. I don't doubt that there are Chinese sweatshops and forced labor, or that counterfeiting and pollution are huge problems in China (as the article you posted states). As long as we recognize, however, that this is propaganda, then we can remain objective about the issue.


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## Poetic Device

I don't have a problem with the things that are made in China, really.  What my problem is the fact that here (on my side of the States) there are so many things that are made in China and it is almost impossible to find anything made anywhere else.  So, who do I be made at for that?  Who is to blame there?


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## Paulfromitaly

fenixpollo said:


> Not necessary, Paul. It's propaganda, and obviously very successful propaganda because you seem to feel very strongly about it. Here's my source (you can take it for what it's worth). However, that doesn't mean that the propaganda that you are hearing is not valid, either -- that is, propaganda can be true. I don't doubt that there are Chinese sweatshops and forced labor, or that counterfeiting and pollution are huge problems in China (as the article you posted states). As long as we recognize, however, that this is propaganda, then we can remain objective about the issue.



Remaining objective about an issue is always a good policy, of course.
Let's call all the information you can find anywhere and not only on internet propaganda, I'm cool with that, but let me go back to the original question:

_Is there something wrong with the stuff made in China?
_
- Is this stuff legally imported? does it comply with the safety regulations? is it clear that it comes from China? 
If the answer to all these questions is YES, there's nothing wrong with Chinese products.
Everybody is free to decide whether to purchase them or not.

Let's now picture a couple of different situations:

1) I buy a jumper, made in China and I pay it 5 dollars: I know it's crap, but still I'm cool with that because I'm going to wear it just once when I'll need to re-paint my house; I choose to buy poor clothing and I know what I'm buying.

2) I buy an electric toy car for my son: I pay it more or less the same amount of money I'd pay for a made-in-US toy, but it's made in China; on the box as well as on the toy itself there are all the marks which normally guarantee the product quality, but they are counterfeited and I don't know it, therefore I tend to think it's a reliable toy; the first time my son plays with the car it burns, due to an electrical fault.
Would you, as a dad, be happy about it??

The above situation is not something I imagine it could happen, but it's what Italian police report happening when, after they have confiscated illegal stuff, they test it: in the 50% of the tests electrical stuff would burn or simply not work after few minutes it has been turned on.


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## TimeHP

Hi, purpledragon.
I'm fond of Chinese culture and two of my best friends are Chinese.
Just to say I'm not prejudiced.

Is there something wrong with the stuff made in China? 
I don't know.
I've just finished reading an article about 60.000 people here in Italy suffering from dermatitis which have been caused by 'cotton clothes arriving from abroad...'. 
_'The european rules to whiten and to dye clothes _
_are more strict than in Asia and Africa - they write. - It seems a great deal of cancerogenic and toxic products are used in many countries during the manufacture of clothes'._
If this is true, it's bad for all, for Chinese people too.

Anyway I can't forget our (= from Europe) toxic milk , our toxic wine, our toxic flour and so on...
If I'm not wrong the first big companies of clothes in China were multinational companies from Usa and Europe. And they perfectly knew that children were working in Chinese factories.

Ciao


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## natasha2000

TimeHP said:


> Anyway I can't forget our (= from Europe) toxic milk , our toxic wine, our toxic flour and so on...
> Ciao


 
And mad cows, genetically altered food... Gosh, look all those obese people in Europe and especially in the USA. McDonals and Mr. Burger, coca Cola and Schweps and other oily, sugar loaded food certainly is acording to CE standards... 

I just want to say, let's not exaggerate. Ok, China goods are not of the best quality and maybe they are made by exploited children. But Western democracy is not so perfect, either... So, in the end, China goods or not, everything has its good and bad sides..


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## Miguelillo 87

purpledragon said:


> Thank you for your answer.
> 
> 
> *About the Copyright violation :*This is another rule.When our ancestor Cailun invented the tech to make paper and then this tech spread to other countries and everybody use it.But he didn't charge any copyright expense from other beneficiary.When China was an advanced country she didn't made such rules but when she degenerates into a third world country, everything changed.She has to obey all the rules make by those powerful nations. I have to confess I download some books and films in the Internet too.You have to understand when someone don't as rich as you guys may not have the idea to respect the copyright.Although I have a Master Degree, the salary of my job in Beijing is 2000 RMB/month(about 250 USD).Do you want to use 1/10 of your salary to buy some legal products? I choose to use the free resource in the Internet. Sometimes when you are poor you have to lower your moral standard.
> *About the poor quality*We have the common sense that when you buy something dirt cheap you can not expect it has the same quality as an expensive one. There is a reason it is cheap. Since the competion is globle nowadays, every country has to use his own superiority to win this game. What the superiority of China in this phase? Manpower resources.We don't have hi-tech,we don't have abundant of fund.We use the inexpensive product to complete the primitive accumulation of fund.Is it wrong?


 
Purpledragon I will talk as a person who also lives in a third world country, And I have to say that chinese commerce is destroying us!!!! I mean I'm not talking about formal commerce, I'm talking about the fact that thousand and thousnads of ilegal merchandise arriive to the country everyday. As you said, we are not rich as the other northern countries, we are "poor" so we prefer to buy somenthing cheaper than something with good quality, even us as I said the own mexicans are helping to the ilegal merchandise of Chine keep flow, becasue of that, I also share your opinion about that if I canniot afford it I won't buy a Levis jean, so we prefer to buy the Mevis one.

I mean I can cope with that, but chinese are doing bad commerce they use our own stuff as i said The virgen of Guadalupe or regional clothes even mexican handicrafts, of plastic that are really different form the good one. That's was it's unfair meanwhile our handicrafts are dying on famished, Chinese entrepeneurs are swimming on money,

So you are becoming in the countires you are critizosong.

I mean I think China ia a great country, with a great culture, but I also think taht it has to do the thing on law not under the water.

You talkes about past, and countires as england or Spain who took advantage of the commerce, but this is tha past, now we have to fit of the nowadays rules, We cannot live in the past!!!!


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## purpledragon

Thank you guys again to participate the discussion.I can see a whole picture after the discussion.Before that I always live in my own world and look these things at the perspective of myself.
It is great that you care about the working condition in our country so much and I really appreciate that.But do you get the whole picture too? 
Several years ago there is a girl about 15 years old,she worked at that kind of illegal factory you talked about to make cloth---of course the crap one.She forced herself to discontinue her study though she had excellent academic records and went into this illegal factory to make money. You may wonder why. She has two little brothers and one little sister and she wish  her siblings could complete their studies by her diligent work and sacrifice.This is not a story I fabricated.This is happened to my best friend in college and the girl is her sister.
There are so many things happen everyday that we can't judge it by right or wrong.There is something between the white and black.


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## roxcyn

Who goes to Walmart?  

If you answered yes then you buy products from China.  Walmart is one of the top imports of products from China.

Is there something wrong with Chinese goods?  It depends on what you are buying, where you are buying it from, and what is the price/quality.  Obviously, if it is from a good retailer then if the product doesn't work, they will take it back.  If you are buying from a person off the street, then you can expect not so good quality.


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## natasha2000

purpledragon said:


> Thank you guys again to participate the discussion.I can see a whole picture after the discussion.Before that I always live in my own world and look these things at the perspective of myself.
> It is great that you care about the working condition in our country so much and I really appreciate that.But do you get the whole picture too?
> Several years ago there is a girl about 15 years old,she worked at that kind of illegal factory you talked about to make cloth---of course the crap one.She forced herself to discontinue her study though she had excellent academic records and went into this illegal factory to make money. You may wonder why. She has two little brothers and one little sister and she wish her siblings could complete their studies by her diligent work and sacrifice.This is not a story I fabricated.This is happened to my best friend in college and the girl is her sister.
> There are so many things happen everyday that we can't judge it by right or wrong.There is something between the white and black.


 
Dear Purple Dragon...

This story is very well known to all of us, since it is a story of many other people living all around the world. Children do not go to work because it is fun, but because they or their familes extremely poor, and there is no state which they can turn to.
The thing is that in some other place, maybe this girl wouldn't have to do that, and the state would take care of her and her brother and sister. Not even this Western world is perfect, and here too such horrible stories exist (once I heard on the TV news that thy found a sweat shop here in Spain with Romanian workers who worked all day and at night they were forced to enter the space between two walls - one real and other false - in a hole of some 40 cm wide! So, I suppose they slept on their feet...
The only thing is that maybe in China they happen more often. The question is in state. Although it is illegal to employ children in both parts (I suppose it's illigal since you say she went to work in an illigal factory), it seems that the law is more soft in China, because if someone was caught to employ children here, it's over with him. He is locked and the key is thrown away. 

Other thing that is horrible for Westerners is that here many exploited persons are exploited precisely by their own people. Chinese sweatshops are full of Chinese, girls that come from Eastern Europe and Africa are usually cheated and then forced to prostitute themselves by their own countrymen... Instead of helping each other, they abuse each other. This is very sad...

Of course, all these stories happen, but also one should not believe in everything one hears... I simply cannot believe that in a country with billions of people only sweat shops with children workers exist. China is a big and numerous country. There must be something more....


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## buscandolenguaje

I hate hearing about the wages in China; developed countries practically NEED cheap things for articles in which quality is not that important, but for other developing countries  China's manufacturing could mean ruin.  When they try to develop their textile or manufacturing industries, China's products will come so cheap that even if governments try to stop their import they will be smuggled like rain all over.  China's success with semi-slave labour is terrible for many other countries who want to pay more decent wages to their employees but whose technological and educational base is not strong enough to manufacture hi-tech stuff.


Personally, I quit buying chinese 'legal' things: I want to be specific with two examples:

I had to buy low-consumption long-life light bulbs and I found this promotion on Chinese light bulbs, less than half the price of Phillips, GE, etc.  None of them lasted more than three months and when I claimed guarantee they  said that chinese products at their store expressly were not guaranteed.  

The same thing happened with some tennis shoes; they looked ok and comfortable, though the label was kind of dubious.  By now my girlfriend knew better and recommended not buying them, but still...  I saved a few bucks, but the shoes had their soles loosely unglued less than two months later.  Guess where they were made?


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## fedecinema

You need time and your own independent culture to know what is true. Otherwise you'll take everything for strained gold. _T.Terzani_

_Ci vuole tempo e ci vogliono un gran buon senso e una tua cultura indipendente per sapere cosa è vero. Se no prendi tutto per oro colato.__T.Terzani_


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## Miguelillo 87

purpledragon said:


> Thank you guys again to participate the discussion.I can see a whole picture after the discussion.Before that I always live in my own world and look these things at the perspective of myself.
> It is great that you care about the working condition in our country so much and I really appreciate that.But do you get the whole picture too?
> Several years ago there is a girl about 15 years old,she worked at that kind of illegal factory you talked about to make cloth---of course the crap one.She forced herself to discontinue her study though she had excellent academic records and went into this illegal factory to make money. You may wonder why. She has two little brothers and one little sister and she wish her siblings could complete their studies by her diligent work and sacrifice.This is not a story I fabricated.This is happened to my best friend in college and the girl is her sister.
> There are so many things happen everyday that we can't judge it by right or wrong.There is something between the white and black.


As a person of a "thirl" country, I have to say that that story is also repetead in mexico many timeas but as Natasha said, Here in Mexico at last there's a law which protect human rights of the children so, It occurs but if oyu are catch, you'll go to jail, (at leat it's what law said) 
About the human roght I cannot give a clear opinion 'cause as you said the one who is living there it's oyu, and oyu should know more than us about your country.
What I can say, it's what I see in my country, and I see that Chinese merchandise it's law quality, maybe not all but 95% it is.

But AS i said before, The fault it's our.
'cause China won't do low quality items if persons are we (Yes. I also buy chinese items) won't buy its articles.
I mean if we prefer price than quality, Chine will continue so that, 'cause it doesn't matter how awful it's its merchandise, it's still buyable, and with a lot of profits. So why stop to produce it?
So we have to change in order to forced Chine ot getting better.


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## purpledragon

My opinion is everybody want to produce high quality and expensive products.They would have more profits by that.The only problem is we don't have the strength to participate in that competation.
I'm sorry for my quibbling.I guess everybody could understand when you discuss with your foreiner friends you want to make your country looks nice.I know we have big problems but I have the confidence that we could pass the phase.


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## Miguelillo 87

I also believe that China will pass this "dark" phase, and so soon, China will be a "First" world country. Because yout country is in the good way, But as you said he is passing through a bad phase, where the eyes of the world is on it. So that's why I think China has to rush in order to start to be a country "on the law" . Also I understand oyur point of that oyu will never say your country sucks, 'Cause I also do the same. So i THIINK YOU'RE PART OF THE SOLUTION.


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## Paulfromitaly

That's another example of the Chinese attitude.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/fiat-may-sue-china%E2%80%99s-great-wall-motor-over-copycat/


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## Miguelillo 87

Paulfromitaly said:


> That's another example of the Chinese attitude.
> 
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/fiat-may-sue-china’s-great-wall-motor-over-copycat/


 
Well that's not surprisly, China copy a lot of things, in Mexico they copy our own handicrafat and our religious figures as the viergne of Guadalupe. and guess who buy it? ¡¡Ourselves!!

But is that fault of Chines governament or it is of the great wall company?
Could we judge the people as if they were the country?
I mean all over the world, corruption and dumping exists


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## Paulfromitaly

Here, we're not talking about fake toys and harmless accidents, but 192.000 people who died.

http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1465.html


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## distille

Hi,

China, like any other country, produces good quality and bad quality products. Since the safety laws may be less restricting than in Europe, there is maybe more room to produce cheaper but less safe products.

However, I tend to avoid buying chinese products when i can, or let's say i try to buy products made in france or made in the EU whenever I can. I do that for two main reasons:
- First, we (humans) have a real environmental problem, so each time i buy something coming from far away i know oil had been used and co2 produced. The longer the distance, the bigger the pollution. Now and then, i will avoid buying something that i like but that i don't really need just because it has not been made in Europe. 
I apply the same system to fruits and vegetable: i eat winter vegetable in winter, summer vegetable in summer and i refuse to buy fruits and vegetable that have been produced outside of france or of italy (except some exotic products that do not grow here). I try to buy food from local producers on market day. 

- Second, i try to be coherent with myself, i find it terrible when a factory is closing down not because it's not profitable but because, by producing elsewhere, it could be even more profitable...and i know that the people that get these new profits are not exactly the ones suffering from hunger. I think a decent salary is a right any working person in the world should have. But i know the world is not perfect, i know that generations of workers in Europe have fought for their right to a decent salary and decent working time so i tend to think it's my duty to buy their products whenever I can. 

However, i'm human, which means i am full of failures, and i am a western girl, so let's say consumption is part of my way of living. I try to consume less, i try to save energy, but now and then i enjoy buying things i don't need, especially clothes. I generally select some clothes i would like to purchase and after i look at the 'made in' and it helps me to choose:
- choice 1: france or the EU
- choice 2: romania or bulgaria (now it is part of the EU, but that wasn't the case until recently)
- choice 3: tunisia or marocco (many clothes are made there too)
(so far, the distance directed my choice)
- choice 4: let's say i have the choice between an Indian and an Chinese jumper. I will take the one from India, because India is a democracy and because India has done more for social audit than China. 

To summarize my consumption behaviour is led by a mix of environmentalist concerns, protectionnist concerns and political opinions. I consider that as an individual i can exert power through two means: voting and buying. Choosing what you buy is a political action.
Of course, i also buy chinese stuff: mainly toys and books for my baby brothers...there is not much choice in this department! And that way, i don't feel too guilty, i'm not only a bad protectionist person that care first for her own people! ;-)


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