# du in katakana



## sonus

Hi, I started to study Japanese and i have a question in katakana.
I asked a friend and he told me 'du' is write with a 'do' and a small 'u', but another one said is write with 'de' and a small 'u'. What's the right form?
thanks


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## Whodunit

I agree with the friend who writes it like "do + little u." That's how I learned to write a Rômaji "du" in Japanese katakana:

ドゥ --> ト (to) + ﾞ (softening sign) + ゥ (u after another kana) ==> du

I hope it helps.


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## Anatoli

Both *ドゥ* and *デゥ* can be used to render "du" but the former is more correct and is used more often but the latter can be used as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana#Table_of_katakana


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## Flaminius

Anatoli said:


> Both *ドゥ* and *デゥ* can be used to render "du"


I imagine you are speaking of ドゥ and デュ.  The latter is used to transcribe /dju/ as in "*du*o" or "Il manque *du* personnel."


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## Flaminius

Whodunit said:


> ドゥ --> ト (to) + ﾞ (softening sign) + ゥ (u after another kana) ==> du


A minor mitpicking.  The diacritic ﾞ is not a softening sign but the voicing sign.


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## Anatoli

Thanks, Flam, I didn't say it was for softening.

The question was for DU, not for TU, so I used the appropriate diacritic. As for the デュ, it's another symbol, which wasn't asked before, I agree that it can be used to render "du" in French words but I did come across デゥ used as  ドゥ as well.


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## Whodunit

Flaminius said:


> A minor mitpicking. The diacritic ﾞ is not a softening sign but the voicing sign.


 
You're right granmmarwise, I think. But doesn't ﾞ make the letters softer (except for the _ha_-row, if speaking about Western grammar)?

ko (こ) --> go (ご)
se (せ) --> ze (ぜ)
ta (た) --> da (だ)

fu (ふ) --> bu (ぶ)

The diacritic ゜ makes them harder; but it only exists in the _ha_-row: hi (ひ) --> bi (び). I'm not sure if there's a better term for the two diacritics, maybe in Japanese there is one?


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## Flaminius

I should have stated that I don't quite get what you mean by softening and hardening.  Being a shameless boar, I'd like to make two points nonetheless.

1. The symbol  ﾞ signifies de-voiceable voiced consonants (voiced consonants minus nasals and liquids, I think).

2. All instances of Japanese indigenous H are results of P --> H change.  The original Ps are preserved under several conditions; basically when they were geminated.

Anatoli,


> I did come across デゥ used as  ドゥ as well.


This was new to me.  You made me learn something!!


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## sonus

Thanks for all the aswers  so both デゥ and ドゥ can be used
very thanks


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## Anatoli

Flaminius said:


> Anatoli,
> 
> This was new to me.  You made me learn something!!


Sorry for the delay, Flaminius. I wasn't trying to be a smart Alec. Just my observation.


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## Flaminius

Anatoli,
No sarcasm intended.  I trust your observation.  
Then again, I have never seen it in use.  I'd assume ドゥ is more common and more standard.


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