# Le gusta a ellos



## Domingo el Gringo

Hello.  I have a problem.  

I was taught that the correct form of the above was:

Les gusta (a ellos)

The "a ellos", I was told, could be added on or left out, and merely clarified who liked the thing (singular in the example above) in question.  

However, several native Spanish-speaking friends have told me that the correct form is:

Les gusta 
Le gusta a ellos

The friends I am referring to are well-educated Colombians and Argentinans.  Are they right, or is it a common error for Spanish speakers, even amongst the well-educated?  

I would very much like to know the correct form - I am looking for a definitive answer on this.  

Thank you in advance

Domingo


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## saemon

No, I think "le gusta a ellos" is incorrect because "le" means "a ellos" and it is plural, so it's "les". "Le gusta" would mean "gusta a él".


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## SpiceMan

El verbo gustar es complicado, porque lingüísticamente la acción es inversa: "eso hace que yo guste". El verbo gustar es intransitivo, y toma como sujeto a lo que incialmente pensaríamos que es el objeto directo.

A María le gusta comer.   < María es objeto indirecto, le enfatiza esto, comer es el sujeto.
A ellos le(s) gusta comer.  < Ellos son objeto indirecto, le enfatiza esto, comer es el sujeto.
A ellos le(s) gustamos nosotros < ellos es OI, nosotros sujeto.

Como todo esto es muy sutil, debe haber miles de variantes con errores muy arraigadas en todos lados. 

Realmente, no se cuál es correcto, si le o les. Aporto más datos para que alguien con más conocimientos explique .


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## Cintia&Martine

Hello, buenas tardes
There are both correct but they don´t mean the same:
-Les gusta: what, it is not in the sentence but before in the conversation it was told. _Why do your parents use to travel? les gusta._
-Le (_travel_) gusta a ellos.
This only an example, but Spicemane explained it very well
Bye, hasta luego


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## diegodbs

Yo creo que las dos formas correctas son:
- Les gusta
- Les gusta a ellos.

En las dos frases con "les". No tiene mucho sentido poner una vez el pronombre en singular y en plural en la misma frase (le gusta a ellos)


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## ampurdan

"Gustar" does not work like in English.

I like it. S + V + O.

Me gusta. O + V/S. (The subject is expressed by the verb conjugation).

"Me" is an indirect object pronoun.

Putting the sentence in a S + V + O form, it would be: "Esto gusta a mí" (don't ever use it, it's not idiomatic).

So, "They like it" is "Esto les gusta" or "les gusta esto" or even "les gusta". If you want to specify who are they, you can say: "les gusta, a Pedro y a María". So, you can also say "les gusta, a ellos" (the comma is optional, but using it you can see that "a ellos" is pleonastic, but admisible to avoid ambiguity). Finally, you could use "a ellos" to mean it's not "a ustedes": "les gusta a ustedes".


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## grumpus

Hi Domingo,
there is a strong tendency is spoken spanish (universal) to replace the third-person plural IO "les" with the singular "le" in certain constructions.  Mind you, I haven't heard "le gusta a ellos"  but I have no doubt people may say it.   You will hear constantly "le he dicho a mis padres".  In fact, a lot a native speakers will tell you that "les he dicho a mis padres" sounds "wrong".
Other examples, particularly true for inanimate objects,

"le viene natural a los gatos"   better "les"??
"no le des importancia a los detalles"   

So there is no "definitive" answer.  Maybe grammar books will tell you to use "les", but you'll sound like a book when you're talking.

Don't fret, the pronoun system only gets more complicated (ha ha)
Grumpus


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## honeypie

I was actually just speaking to my Spanish professor (from Colombia) about a similar subject.  He told me that it seems to be getting more and more popular in Spanish (I'm not sure about which countries or whether it's a general trend) to say "le" when normally "les" would be required.  

For example:

Ella le dije a Mario...
Ella le dije a ellos

The second sentence should be "les dije a ellos" but many native speakers (according to my professor) are now saying "le".  He mentioned a couple studies and essays by other professor about this topic so it seems somewhat widespread.


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## lazarus1907

Ampurdan & diegodbs have explained it quite well, but here goes my 5 cents:



			
				Domingo el Gringo said:
			
		

> Hello.  I have a problem.
> 
> I was taught that the correct form of the above was:
> 
> Les gusta (a ellos)
> 
> The "a ellos", I was told, could be added on or left out, and merely clarified who liked the thing (singular in the example above) in question.
> 
> However, several native Spanish-speaking friends have told me that the correct form is:
> 
> Les gusta
> Le gusta a ellos



Yes, some native speakers use it wrong. The form you learnt is absolutely correct.

Sintactically, "les" and "a ellos" are both Indirect Objects referred to *the same person/s*, one being the object itself, and the other its pronoun. It is a peculiar feature of the Spanish language. If one is singular, so must be the other, and the same applies for the plural form.

The subject of a sentece using a verb such as gustar (or parecer, encantar...) is what it would be the object in English, i.e. the thing you like, for "gustar".

The indirect object (me, le, a mí, a ellos...), both as pronouns or not, would be the subject of the typical English sentence.

These are the only allowed combinations in Spanish (in some countries like Argentina they use different personal pronouns and conjugations, but the two duplicated forms of the I.O. must be in the same number regardless):

me gusta la cerveza (a mí)
me gustan las cervezas (a mí)

te gusta la cerveza (a ti)
te gustan las cervezas (a ti)

le gusta la cerveza (a él/ella/usted)
le gustan las cervezas (a él/ella/usted)

nos gusta la cerveza (a nosotros)
nos gustan la cervezas (a nosotros)

os gusta la cerveza (a vosotros)
os gustan la cervezas (a vosotros)

les gusta la cerveza (a ellos/ellas/usted)
les gustan la cervezas (a ellos/ellas/usted)


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## lazarus1907

grumpus said:
			
		

> "le viene natural a los gatos"   better "les"??
> "no le des importancia a los detalles"



Tricky examples indeed!

In both cases, the correct one should be "les" (a los gatos, a los detalles), if you ask me, but it is VERY tempting to start the second one with "no le...", I have to admit. To make things worse, if you only use the pronouns, it is the same both in singular and in plural:

"le" = "a ese detalle" (indirect object)
"la" = "importancia" (direct object)

No le des importancia a ese detalle
No se la des

"les" = "a los detalles" (indirect object)
"la" = "importancia" (direct object)

no les des importancia a los detalles
no se la des

Sintactically, this is how I see it, but I am not surprised that "no le des importancia a los detalles" sounds fine to most natives.

Regards,


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## mhp

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Domingo,
> there is a strong tendency is spoken spanish (universal) to replace the third-person plural IO "les" with the singular "le" in certain constructions.  Mind you, I haven't heard "le gusta a ellos"  but I have no doubt people may say it.   You will hear constantly "le he dicho a mis padres".  In fact, a lot a native speakers will tell you that "les he dicho a mis padres" sounds "wrong".
> Other examples, particularly true for inanimate objects,
> 
> "le viene natural a los gatos"   better "les"??
> "no le des importancia a los detalles"
> 
> So there is no "definitive" answer.  Maybe grammar books will tell you to use "les", but you'll sound like a book when you're talking.
> 
> Don't fret, the pronoun system only gets more complicated (ha ha)
> Grumpus



 Thanks grumpus,

I've caught myself saying "le" instead of "les" many times when I'd made a mistake. But no one ever had corrected me. I was thinking that they were just too polite to point out a small error. But now I see that it may well have sounded the right way to say it after all


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## lazarus1907

Hi mhp,

I bet you make a lot less mistakes that most natives in Spanish overall. At this point of proficiency you have to go start trusting grammatical rules more than natives: We are not infalible! I catch myself making mistakes ocasionally!


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## ampurdan

In fact, now I realize I could have said "*no le des importancia a los detalles". The better way to say it: "no des importancia a los detalles".

The sentence: "no le des importancia (a eso)" is so common that might have interfered...


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## lazarus1907

ampurdan said:
			
		

> In fact, now I realize I could have said "*no le des importancia a los detalles". The better way to say it: "no des importancia a los detalles".
> 
> The sentence: "no le des importancia (a eso)" is so common that might have interfered...




Hi ampurdan,

  I'm completely with you on this. It sounds a more elegant without the "le". And  I do like your theory about the interference with "no le des importancia (a eso)".


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## ampurdan

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Hi ampurdan,
> 
> I'm completely with you on this. It sounds a more elegant without the "le". And I do like your theory about the interference with "no le des importancia (a eso)".


 
Well, I appreciate your support.


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## lazarus1907

I appreciate your point of view.


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## Doval

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Well, I appreciate your support.


At least among the spanish speakers I know best (Dominicans and Puerto Ricans), there is a strong tendency to use singular pronouns where the plural should be used, and not just in the present example. I've always associated this with the tendency (at least among Dominicans and Puerto Ricans) to aspirate unstressed esses in words. Hence, *les gusta* becomes *leh gusta* or *le gusta*. The tendency is to transfer the spoken form to the written. I see these types of errors (along with other predictable spelling errors) in the writings of even educated Dominicans, for instance.

I suppose a similar phenomenon is evident in expressions like "Ella le gusta la gasolina" (from Daddy Yankee's song). Here the "a" ([A] ella le gusta...) is omitted.

Other opinions?


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## lazarus1907

> Hence, les gusta becomes leh gusta



This is VERY common in Sevilla, Spain.
It makes me think... Someone, not long ago, mentioned that Madrid never had the influence in America's spoken Spanish that Sevilla had, because all the traffic between the two continents was channeled through Sevilla, and not Madrid.

Coincidence?
God knows


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## ampurdan

Well, maybe was Seville the city which exported some traits of their andalusi accent to America, and not the other way round... But who knows...


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## DaleC

I have addressed this question recently, citing an article in a linguistic journal. I would be glad to search for those posts or look up the journal again. For now: 

definitively, letting 'le' be indeterminate for number is not pure written standard usage, but it is extremely common among all classes of people and even appears rather often in print. You need not hesitate to imitate your friends' use of it except for very formal writing. As a learner, when in doubt, of course fall back on the traditional standard. 

Regards,
Dale



			
				Domingo el Gringo said:
			
		

> Hello. I have a problem.
> 
> I was taught that the correct form of the above was:
> 
> Les gusta (a ellos)
> 
> The "a ellos", I was told, could be added on or left out, and merely clarified who liked the thing (singular in the example above) in question.
> 
> However, several native Spanish-speaking friends have told me that the correct form is:
> 
> Les gusta
> Le gusta a ellos
> 
> The friends I am referring to are well-educated Colombians and Argentinans. Are they right, or is it a common error for Spanish speakers, even amongst the well-educated?
> 
> I would very much like to know the correct form - I am looking for a definitive answer on this.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> Domingo


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## lazarus1907

DaleC said:
			
		

> I have addressed this question recently, citing an article in a linguistic journal. I would be glad to search for those posts or look up the journal again. For now:
> 
> definitively, letting 'le' be indeterminate for number is not pure written standard usage, but it is extremely common among all classes of people and even appears rather often in print. You need not hesitate to imitate your friends' use of it except for very formal writing. As a learner, when in doubt, of course fall back on the traditional standard.
> 
> Regards,
> Dale



The pronoun "le" is definitely no indeterminate for number (as you say); people are just lazy or can't be bothered learning how to speak properly. I do my best to speak proper standard Spanish in front of foreigners who are trying to learn, even though I break all sorts of rules when I speak with my friends informally.

One shouldn't play with the language like that before its proper usage is completely mastered.

Just stick to that advice you just posted!


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## jacinta

Well, I'll tell you that this thread depresses me a little.  I'm thinking, as a Spanish teacher, why should I teach "les gusta a ellos" when native speakers don't even use this form.  I can't say to my class:  Students, this is the proper form but it's okay if you don't use it!  I can't do that.  So I am going to stick to teaching the proper grammatical form of les gusta.


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## WillyLandron

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Well, maybe was Seville the city which exported some traits of their andalusi accent to America, and not the other way round... But who knows...



There is a British fellow named Penny who explains the possibilities quite well. It's not all clear-cut but what is clear is that American Spanish is what it is because things that happened in Spain and not the other way around. You (Spaniards) borrowed alot of American words but we borrowed alot of the same ones too.

Spanish came from Europe to America and that's pretty much how it's always been until now. The traffic was mostly one way and stopped along time ago. 

*Penny, Ralph. A History of the Spanish Language. 2nd ed. Cambridge:  Cambridge UP, 2002. *


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## lazarus1907

jacinta said:
			
		

> Well, I'll tell you that this thread depresses me a little.  I'm thinking, as a Spanish teacher, why should I teach "les gusta a ellos" when native speakers don't even use this form.  I can't say to my class:  Students, this is the proper form but it's okay if you don't use it!  I can't do that.  So I am going to stick to teaching the proper grammatical form of les gusta.



"les gusta a ellos" is perfectly correct, and people use it often.

The post started with the question: should I use "le" or "les".

These sentence structures are common (probably because we start with the people who *like* the beer):

"A ellos les gusta la cerveza"
"Les gusta la cerveza"

This is common, but maybe not nearly as much:

"La cerveza les gusta"

A bit is less common, although correct (I guess is a bit redundant):

"La cerveza les gusta a ellos"

If you begin with the indirect object, you must repeat it again in its pronoun form. This is normal with verbs like "gustar, parecer, encantar...".


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## WillyLandron

jacinta said:
			
		

> Well, I'll tell you that this thread depresses me a little.  I'm thinking, as a Spanish teacher, why should I teach "les gusta a ellos" when native speakers don't even use this form.  I can't say to my class:  Students, this is the proper form but it's okay if you don't use it!  I can't do that.  So I am going to stick to teaching the proper grammatical form of les gusta.


What do you do with "Querían saber quien fue el asesino y se *los *dije" for "They wanted to know who the murdered was and I told *them*." ?

I guess you teach them that the "correct" form is "se *lo *dije" but that they shouldn't be surprised if they hear or read the 
"wrong" version even by educated speakers.


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## lazarus1907

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> What do you do with "Querían saber quien fue el asesino y se *los *dije" for "They wanted to know who the murdered was and I told *them*." ?
> 
> I guess you teach them that the "correct" form is "se *lo *dije" but that they shouldn't be surprised if they hear or read the
> "wrong" version even by educated speakers.



Don't wanna start the old debate about Spain/Southamerica, but "se lo dije (a ellos)" is the only version you'll hear in Spain.

This "se los dije" would have probably never happened if there was a single distinct pronoun for every person and number, rather than having "se" for "a usted", "a ti", and "a ellos" at the same time. Since "a ellos" it is plural, it's no wonder people try to reflect this plurality somehow in the sentence. "Se" doesn't have a prural form, but "lo" does; hence this "los" for "a ellos" (I just came up with this theory, of course)

Forgive me if I'm talking nonsense. It's too late, and I should be in bed long ago. Talk to you tomorrow.

Regards for everyone


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## WillyLandron

I don't want to start that debate either. I'm aware that this construction is rejected in Spain but if you are a Spanish teacher in the US you might have other concerns.

In Latin America, just about everybody says it except for the people who don't pronounce the final esses anyway. 

You have, on the one hand, the responsibility of teaching the least stigmatized forms because you don't want to handi-cap your students (and some of them might decide to visit Spain or even move there) and on the other, you don't want them to step out into the real world and not be prepared for the Spanish they are going to read and hear.


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## JB

Dear Jacinta:
Depending on what level of Spanish you are teaching, you have to teach the correct form, to build a foundaion, but you don't have to be dogmatic about it--that it is, always has been, and always will be the only way, como Dios manda, that Spanish can be spoken.

Having a solid foundation of "correct" Spanish, I can now appreicate differences between countries, differences between proper written and spoken etc.  Juste because so-called educated peple in America, in the last few years started saying "these kind" (instead of "this kind" or "these kinds") doesn't make it right.  Hopefully it is a passing fad.

By the way, if you read Don Quijote, you'll find "embarazada" used to mean "avergonzada."  I assume that "embarazada" acquired its current meaning because it was used as a euphemism.

Finally, if your'e students are able to converse intelligently with educated college professors, they'll always be able to "dumb down" their language for others.


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## WillyLandron

jbruceismay said:
			
		

> Finally, if your students are able to converse intelligently with educated college professors, they'll always be able to "dumb down" their language for others.


Sure. The thing is, with some of the issues, that's exactly how the educated college professors are saying it in some Latin American countries. It's really not stigmitized at all. In Mexico City, for example, no matter how well educated the speaker, you will hear "Se los dije" when only one thing was said. Everybody dumbs it down. Some issues are class/level of education related this one is really not.

"...existe en el español mexicano, en todos los registros            de habla y en todos los niveles socioculturales..."

See : http://omega.ilce.edu.mx:3000/sites/fondo2000/vol1/algunas-minucias/html/25.html


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## JB

Gracias por el artículo.  Muy interesante.


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## DaleC

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> One shouldn't play with the language like that before its proper usage is completely mastered.
> 
> Just stick to that advice you just posted!



My advice was "when in doubt . . . ." If you get lots of experience talking with natives, or if you are not a timid learner, you will not be in doubt.


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## Edwin P.

jacinta said:
			
		

> Well, I'll tell you that this thread depresses me a little. I'm thinking, as a Spanish teacher, why should I teach "les gusta a ellos" when native speakers don't even use this form. I can't say to my class: Students, this is the proper form but it's okay if you don't use it! I can't do that. So I am going to stick to teaching the proper grammatical form of les gusta.


 
Yo pienso que tienes la razon. Ejemplo,

A ellos les gusta el dulce.        (diria que la mejor manera de hablar y... 
A ellos, el dulce les gusta.      escribir es haciendolo ordenadamente)
El dulce, a ellos les gusta.
El dulce, les gusta mucho a ellos.

Yo pienso que "les" es para el plural y "le" es para el singular.


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## jmx

"Le gusta a ellos" sounds definitely wrong to my ears, but by now it is obvious that we are dealing with a Spain vs. Latin America issue, therefore it should be considered "correct latinamerican usage". Not discarding that it might also be usual in certain parts of Spain, as it often happens with latinamerican peculiarities.





			
				Doval said:
			
		

> At least among the spanish speakers I know best (Dominicans and Puerto Ricans), there is a strong tendency to use singular pronouns where the plural should be used, and not just in the present example. I've always associated this with the tendency (at least among Dominicans and Puerto Ricans) to aspirate unstressed esses in words. Hence, *les gusta* becomes *leh gusta* or *le gusta*. The tendency is to transfer the spoken form to the written.


 That was also my first theory, but apparently using 'le' for plural also happens in Mexico, where the s/z are not aspirated. 

Here is the thread about plural "le" that DaleC mentioned :
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=82970


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## lazarus1907

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> "...existe en el español mexicano, en todos los registros            de habla y en todos los niveles socioculturales..."





> ....... Técnicamente expresado, consiste en lo siguiente: se pluraliza *equivocadamente *un pronombre de tercera persona, objeto directo singular, cuando sigue a un pronombre invariable se con función de objeto indirecto plural
> [.....]
> Quizá el fenómeno tenga su explicación en la dificultad que en español tiene la explicación del origen de la palabra se, [.....]



Bueno, esto es una página mexicana a fin de cuentas, ¿no?

Es España mucha gente dice constantemente muchas barbaridades, inculso por televisión, pero no significa que sean correctas.


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## grumpus

jmartins said:
			
		

> "Le gusta a ellos" sounds definitely wrong to my ears, but by now it is obvious that we are dealing with a Spain vs. Latin America issue, therefore it should be considered "correct latinamerican usage". That was also my first theory, but apparently using 'le' for plural also happens in Mexico, where the s/z are not aspirated.
> 
> Here is the thread about plural "le" that DaleC mentioned :
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=82970




Hi JMartins et al.,
if you go back to my post above, you'll see this le for les is what I call a "universal" issue -- it happens on both sides of the Atlantic.  So it's not really an L.A. vs Spain issue.
I see it as just a "natural" tendency in the language (don't know why it happens though)
Maybe a parallel in English would be something like the use of "me and him" for "he and I",
or  maybe something like
"I have went" for "I have gone"
Any English speaking region of the world has these "mistakes".

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## WillyLandron

lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Bueno, esto es una página mexicana a fin de cuentas, ¿no?



Me imagino que están mejor informados sobre el tema que los que no somos mexicanos. 



			
				lazarus1907 said:
			
		

> Es España mucha gente dice constantemente muchas barbaridades, inculso por televisión, pero no significa que sean correctas.



Nunca he dicho que fueran correctas  y en realidad, personalmente, no me da ni frío ni calor. 

Lo que opino es que sería irresponsable de la parte de un profesor querer tapar el sol con un dedo. Esos estudiantas californianos de esa maestra están bien cerca de México y muy que pero que muy lejos de España.

Lo que sea correcto en España no es prioritario.


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## jmx

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi Domingo,
> there is a strong tendency is spoken spanish (universal) to replace the third-person plural IO "les" with the singular "le" in certain constructions. Mind you, I haven't heard "le gusta a ellos" but I have no doubt people may say it. You will hear constantly "le he dicho a mis padres". In fact, a lot a native speakers will tell you that "les he dicho a mis padres" sounds "wrong".
> Other examples, particularly true for inanimate objects,
> 
> "le viene natural a los gatos" better "les"??
> "no le des importancia a los detalles"
> 
> So there is no "definitive" answer. Maybe grammar books will tell you to use "les", but you'll sound like a book when you're talking.


I think you are mixing up 2 things :

- "No le des importancia a los detalles". I've also heard that. It's simply a question of 'planning ahead'. You begin the sentence automatically and then you realise you're using a plural, and therefore the agreement turns out wrong. That can happen to anybody in a casual conversation. I think the "interference" that Ampurdan mentioned is more or less the same.

- "Le gusta a ellos". I've never heard that, no matter how uneducated the speaker was. The pronouns are too near to think the sentence in 2 times. Therefore, it is not "universal", in my corner of the world it doesn't exist.


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## grumpus

Hi JMartins,
do you say
le he dicho a mis padres
or 
les he dicho a mis padres

You probably say the first if you are a native speaker of Spanish

And this is the "general" issue being dealt with here in this post; that is, the possibility of using "le" for "les" in a context where it is "clearly wrong".  I agree, if you had read my message, you would have seen I also said that I have never heard "le gusta a ellos", but what I am clearly demonstrating with my argument is that it is a possibility in the Spanish language  (universally) and has nothing to do with Spanish in your corner of the world. 

un abrazo,
Grumpus


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## Edwin P.

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi JMartins,
> do you say
> le he dicho a mis padres
> or
> les he dicho a mis padres
> 
> You probably say the first if you are a native speaker of Spanish
> 
> And this is the "general" issue being dealt with here in this post; that is, the possibility of using "le" for "les" in a context where it is "clearly wrong". I agree, if you had read my message, you would have seen I also said that I have never heard "le gusta a ellos", but what I am clearly demonstrating with my argument is that it is a possibility in the Spanish language (universally) and has nothing to do with Spanish in your corner of the world.
> 
> un abrazo,
> Grumpus


 
I definetely agree with you. I really haven't heard or read a sentence like that. In that case I'd say. "A ellos les gusta." To me, it sounds better. Otro ejemplo, "A ellos les gustan los carros." I don't think it would sound right or very well if I say, "A ellos le gustan los carros." Right?

How would that sound if I ever say, "A ella les gustan los carros." or "A ella le gustan los carros."? I think I'd rather say, "A ella le gustan los carros."


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## DaleC

The "swallowed s" explanation is a reasonable guess. But it doesn't bear out: this phenomenon is not a phonetic one. First of all, the use of 'le' to "double" a *plural *pronoun or noun shows up in writing by educated people, and they don't write 'los, las' or other words without 's'. This shows they are spelling according to their personal grammar, not just according to their personal pronunciation. ("Doubling" is the conventional name for the redundant use of clitic pronouns, lo, le, etc. as in 'le dió a ella' and 'el libro lo compró, etc.) Secondly, among those who recognize this phenomenon to be a grammatical one are native speaker linguists. Thirdly, as jmartins points out, it may occur among speakers who don't drop the 's'. 

Interesting fact: "swallowing the s" at the end of syllables turns out to be widespread in Mexico after all. That seems to be the way of most of the Spanish speakers I hear in this border city of San Diego, California. Mexicans form the overwhelming majority of Hispanics in San Diego, although they come from all over Mexico -- in fact the center and south of Mexico send more immigrants to the USA than the north of Mexico. 



			
				jmartins said:
			
		

> "Le gusta a ellos" sounds definitely wrong to my ears, but by now it is obvious that we are dealing with a Spain vs. Latin America issue, therefore it should be considered "correct latinamerican usage". Not discarding that it might also be usual in certain parts of Spain, as it often happens with latinamerican peculiarities. That was also my first theory, but apparently using 'le' for plural also happens in Mexico, where the s/z are not aspirated.
> 
> Here is the thread about plural "le" that DaleC mentioned :
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=82970



In that thread, check out my post, #27. Thanks to jmartins for finding the thread.


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## WillyLandron

DaleC said:
			
		

> Interesting fact: "swallowing the s" at the end of syllables turns out to be widespread in Mexico after all. That seems to be the way of most of the Spanish speakers I hear in this border city of San Diego, California. Mexicans form the overwhelming majority of Hispanics in San Diego, although they come from all over Mexico -- in fact the center and south of Mexico send more immigrants to the USA than the north of Mexico.



That's very interesting indeed. Most of the Mexicans in NYC are from Puebla which puts them close the the DF. It's my experience that Mexicans on TV and those I meet her in NYC do *NOT *swallow their esses at all.

I've been told that Mexicans on the Caribbean cost drop some esses and I have heard George Lopez say some words like a Caribbean would but I have no idea what part of Mexico his Spanish is from. I think he's the only Mexican I have ever heard do that.

That, of course, does not by any means prove that it doesn't happen. I've been told that it does.


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## grumpus

Hi WillyLandron and Dale C.
Dale C. it sounds like your on the right track, see my previous posts.
The s-less areas of Mexico are also the coastal areas in general, Sinaloa, Veracruz, Tabasco .  Think of how Mexicans imitate Lopez Obrador (an s-less type)

In Tijuana, you can hear the s-less pronunciation because there are a lot of migrants from Sinaloa and Sonora (and probably other s-less regions).  
However, the s-less-ness of Mexico is nothing compared to what you hear in Cuba/Pue"l"to Rico or southern Spain.

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## Edwin P.

DaleC said:
			
		

> The "swallowed s" explanation is a reasonable guess. But it doesn't bear out: this phenomenon is not a phonetic one. First of all, the use of 'le' to "double" a *plural *pronoun or noun shows up in writing by educated people, and they don't write 'los, las' or other words without 's'. This shows they are spelling according to their personal grammar, not just according to their personal pronunciation. ("Doubling" is the conventional name for the redundant use of clitic pronouns, lo, le, etc. as in 'le dió a ella' and 'el libro lo compró, etc.) Secondly, among those who recognize this phenomenon to be a grammatical one are native speaker linguists. Thirdly, as jmartins points out, it may occur among speakers who don't drop the 's'.
> 
> Interesting fact: "swallowing the s" at the end of syllables turns out to be widespread in Mexico after all. That seems to be the way of most of the Spanish speakers I hear in this border city of San Diego, California. Mexicans form the overwhelming majority of Hispanics in San Diego, although they come from all over Mexico -- in fact the center and south of Mexico send more immigrants to the USA than the north of Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> In that thread, check out my post, #27. Thanks to jmartins for finding the thread.


 
Thanks for letting us know the facts, but I don't think the center and south of Mexico send any immigrants at all. People go by themselves as a choice. Other thing, we aren't or weren't talking about immigrants as a matter of fact so I don't think that subject belongs to this forum and finally, what's your *solution or advice* to all Spanish speakers about this grammar rule? I hope you could be a little bit more precise and concrete on your perspective and persuade us to agree with you next time. Thank you.

Sincerely, 
Edwin P.


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## grumpus

Hi Edwin,
I think "send" migrants was probably a poor choice of words, but I do think the "s" question is relevant to the thread (and of interest, in general).

Saludos,
Grumpus


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## JB

i lived in Southern Baja for a time (San José del Cabo) where I routinely heard (but more more less'educated speakers)  "ma or meno" and such.  I was told (but don't know if the source necessarily knew what he was talking about) that it's a coastal feature.   Well, virtually all of Baja is near a coast.  

As to your "solution", well, languages change.  Many perfectlyi proper words in Spanish today (and English and Japanese, etc.) were sloppy or incorrect at one time.

In a sort of "reverse=s" phenomenon:

My students (teenagers) in Mexico insisted I was wrong when I said that  _quizá_ was as acceptable as _quizás _(which they all used).   Later research showed that the single word came from_   quién sabe _pronounced sloppily to yield quizá.  Then the "s" got added to make it conform to so many other words, like _atrás, detrás,_ etc.  

You refer to it as a problem requiring a solution, as if we were talking about the dropout rate or drug use.  I don't see it that way.  Now, people in high places saying "new-cue-lar," that's another matter.


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## SpiceMan

jbruceismay said:
			
		

> My students (teenagers) in Mexico insisted I was wrong when I said that  _quizá_ was as acceptable as _quizás _(which they all used).


That's the problem of dealing with people who think they understand how the language works, just because they talk it . 

The only thing I'm sure is, I understand the innerworks of Japanese (the only language I've studied in a strict sense) better than Spanish, even though studying languages made me understand better my own language.


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## grumpus

Hi jbruceismay,
that "ma o meno" was exactly what I was thinking of.  It's very characteristic of Sinaloa although I believe the "aspirated s" occurs in other positions and words.  But again, it's particularly mild compared to some carribean countries or southern Spain.

ciao,
Grumpus


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## fdle

*Leísmo, laísmo y loísmo *


Veamos el uso normativo de este punto según la Real Academia Española, que se basa en su origen etimológico: 
Complemento directo
Complemento indirecto 
_Singular_
lo
la
le (se)

_Plural_
los
las
les (se)
​Pero esta sencilla clasificación teórica no resulta tan fácil en la práctica. Hemos de tener en cuenta que en Madrid y otras zonas del centro peninsular los errores en el uso de los pronombres átonos son muy frecuentes, y que de ahí han pasado también a ser frecuentes en muchos de nuestros medios de comunicación.
*1. LEÍSMO *
Se denomina leísmo al fenómeno de utilizar los pronombres átonos le y les cuando lo correcto sería lo y los o la y las.
_Al caballo le mataron después de la carrera. _
Debería decirse:
_Al caballo lo mataron después de la carrera. _
ya que el pronombre átono hace la función de complemento directo.
El uso generalizado del uso de le como complemento directo cuando se refiere a un nombre masculino ha terminado por ser admitido por la Real Academia Española, y el uso ha venido a matizar un tanto la norma anterior. De esta manera, son correctos:
_A Juan lo encontré en la puerta del cine. 
A Juan le encontré en la puerta del cine. _
Pero no si se refiere a un nombre femenino:
_A Inés la encontré a la puerta del cine _
Así, sería incorrecto decir: 
_A Inés le encontré a la puerta del cine. _
*2. LAÍSMO*
El laísmo, por su parte, consiste en la utilización de los pronombres átonos la y las en lugar de le y les como complemento indirecto. El hablante, de este modo, se siente en la obligación de marcar el género del referente.
_A Inés la gusta mucho ir al cine. _
Debería decirse, ya que se trata de un complemento indirecto:
_A Inés le gusta ir al cine. _
*3. LOÍSMO *
Por su parte, el loísmo consiste en la utilización de lo y los en lugar de los pronombre átonos de complemento indirecto: le y les. De los tres fenómenos reseñados, es el que se considera más vulgar.
_A Juan lo ofrecieron trabajo la semana pasada. _
Lo correcto sería:
_A Juan le ofrecieron trabajo la semana pasada_. 
​http://www.arcocomunicaciones.com/fdle/errores.html​


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## WillyLandron

SpiceMan said:
			
		

> That's the problem of dealing with people who think they understand how the language works, just because they talk it .



In practice, the study of language is in some degree or other the concern of  everyone. But a paradoxical consequence of this general interest is that no  other subject has fostered more absurd notions, more prejudices, more illusions,  or more fantasies.

—Ferdinand de Saussure, _Course in General Linguistics_


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## grumpus

SpiceMan said:
			
		

> That's the problem of dealing with people who think they understand how the language works, just because they talk it .
> 
> The only thing I'm sure is, I understand the innerworks of Japanese (the only language I've studied in a strict sense) better than Spanish, even though studying languages made me understand better my own language.



Hi SpiceMan,
definitely true.  I didn't know '"jack", as we say, about English until I studied Spanish/Portuguese.

I wish we could talk more about this over "bife de chorizo" en una parilla (I like Parilla al Paso, there in BsA.)

saludos,
Grumpus


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## JB

If you've studied French, you probably read _Le Petit Prince (el Principito) _in wihch the author says (I think through the Fox - _el zorro)_ answering the question "What is language?" -- La langue est source de malentendu -- _la lengua es una fuente de malentendimientos.  _
Shouldn't be.  Is.


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## Edwin P.

SpiceMan said:
			
		

> That's the problem of dealing with people who think they understand how the language works, just because they talk it .
> 
> The only thing I'm sure is, I understand the innerworks of Japanese (the only language I've studied in a strict sense) better than Spanish, even though studying languages made me understand better my own language.


 
I agree with you and I know some people think they are so right just becuase they went to high school, but honestly when it comes to language and grammar rules you notice how much they have or haven't learnt. Some guys don't even know people say or write the words, "*specially*" and "*especially*." Some people write "*now*" as "*know*", or some thing that a *gossiping person* might be the same as a *busybody *person.


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## grumpus

Hi FDLE

what is "defensa de la lengua espanola"?  Or better, what is it being defended from?

ciao,
Grumpus


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## WillyLandron

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi FDLE
> 
> what is "defensa de la lengua espanola"?  Or better, what is it being defended from?
> 
> ciao,
> Grumpus


*F*rente para la *D*efensa de la *L*engua *E*spañola

http://www.arcocomunicaciones.com/fdle/index2.htm

Ese citio ta vien gufeao.


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## JB

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> *F*rente para la *D*efensa de la *L*engua *E*spañola
> 
> http://www.arcocomunicaciones.com/fdle/index2.htm
> 
> *Ese citio ta vien gufeao.*




Supongo que esto es humor, y que debe ser (en forma correcta) Este sitio está bien gufeado.  Pero, que significa ¿"gufeado"? (No se lo encuentra ni en Espasa ni en el DRAE.)


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## WillyLandron

jbruceismay said:
			
		

> [/b]
> 
> Supongo que esto es humor, y que debe ser (en forma correcta) Este sitio está bien gufeado.  Pero, que significa ¿"gufeado"? (No se lo encuentra ni en Espasa ni en el DRAE.)




¡Claro que no ta en el DRAE! ¡El DRAE ta pasao! ¿Epasa? ¿Qué jeso? Mucha gente dice mucha palavra que no tan en el disionario y "gufeao" e una della. 

GUFEAO = goofy, weird, odd, dopey, cool, or nice.

Yo no sé lo que quiere decir GUFEA*D*O. Nunca he oído esa palabra en toda mi vida.


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## SpiceMan

grumpus said:
			
		

> what is "defensa de la lengua espanola"?  Or better, what is it being defended from?


From being forgotten? From being spoken incorrectly? etc, etc.


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## grumpus

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> ¡Claro que no ta en el DRAE! ¡El DRAE ta pasao! ¿Epasa? ¿Qué jeso? Mucha gente dice mucha palavra que no tan en el disionario y "gufeao" e una della.
> 
> GUFEAO = goofy, weird, odd, dopey, cool, or nice.
> 
> Yo no sé lo que quiere decir GUFEA*D*O. Nunca he oído esa palabra en toda mi vida.



HI WillyLandron,
I like it, "gufeao".  The only problem is Mexico/So. California is a "d" heavy region, so we may doubly criticized for employing it.
Grumpus


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## WillyLandron

grumpus said:
			
		

> HI WillyLandron,
> I like it, "gufeao".  The only problem is Mexico/So. California is a "d" heavy region, so we may doubly criticized for employing it.
> Grumpus



I would recomend that you don't use it then!

Here in NYC most people don't really care. The word is Puerto Rican, by the way, although I have seen it used on Venezuelan sites. My stepmother, who is Puerto Rican, uses it so I don't think it's particularly something exclusive to the youngins.  *Not that I'm old!* I'm very, very, very young. I'm almost an embryo!


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## JB

WillyLandron said:
			
		

> ¡Claro que no ta en el DRAE! ¡El DRAE ta pasao! ¿Epasa? ¿Qué jeso? Mucha gente dice mucha palavra que no tan en el disionario y "gufeao" e una della.
> 
> GUFEAO = goofy, weird, odd, dopey, cool, or nice.
> 
> Yo no sé lo que quiere decir GUFEA*D*O. Nunca he oído esa palabra en toda mi vida.


 
Eh, homey.  Quihúbole, eh?  ¿Qué onda?  OK güey.  No hay pedo.  Orale, ya entiendo.  Gracias.  Te cuide.  No vemo en otro hilo.


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## Nadine Beck

Doval said:
			
		

> At least among the spanish speakers I know best (Dominicans and Puerto Ricans), there is a strong tendency to use singular pronouns where the plural should be used, and not just in the present example. I've always associated this with the tendency (at least among Dominicans and Puerto Ricans) to aspirate unstressed esses in words. Hence, *les gusta* becomes *leh gusta* or *le gusta*. The tendency is to transfer the spoken form to the written. I see these types of errors (along with other predictable spelling errors) in the writings of even educated Dominicans, for instance.



In the caribbean we eat our "S"es.  It's just the way we speak.  There's usually an aspiration (the "h" sound you described) where the S used to be (I want to say always, but I guess I haven't been everywhere and heard everything.)  ANyhow, to me it always sounds different when there is an S and when there isn't, even if the S is not pronounced -- porque nosotros los comemos.

The omission of the S in written SPanish where it should be I can only imagine must be a mistake engendered from years in the US.  I wonder if it is worse in NYC....I used to wish for a pen when I rode the NYC subway, so I could correct the Spanish billboards -- they were so full of mistakes!  (For some reason they didn't have so many in Boston...)

 Nadine


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## Doval

Nadine Beck said:
			
		

> The omission of the S in written SPanish where it should be I can only imagine must be a mistake engendered from years in the US. I wonder if it is worse in NYC....I used to wish for a pen when I rode the NYC subway, so I could correct the Spanish billboards -- they were so full of mistakes! (For some reason they didn't have so many in Boston...)
> 
> Nadine


Actually, I'm referring to the writing of my girlfriend's brother (lives in Sto. Domingo; never been to the US) and sister (Emigrated from DR to Spain; never lived in US) and others in the Dominican Republic. Here's an example from the mother of a little girl I sponsor there: "Ella tiene dos hermanita, nosotro somo cristiano y a ella le gusta ir ala iglesia..."


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## jmx

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi JMartins,
> do you say
> le he dicho a mis padres
> or
> les he dicho a mis padres
> 
> You probably say the first if you are a native speaker of Spanish


Hi Grumpus, sorry for the delay in answering your post.

I would say "le*s* he dicho a mis padres". Always. I'm 100% sure of that.

It could happen that using "le" for both singular and plural is the original usage, that was later "reguralised" in Spain. This is the post that gave me this idea :

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=82970#19


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## jmx

jmartins said:


> I would say "le*s* he dicho a mis padres". Always. I'm 100% sure of that.


I revive this old thread just to explain that lately I've realised that I too say "le" instead of "les" in some sentences, though probably not very often.


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