# Multiple Verbs and Cases



## smrd

Hi Everyone,

In a sentence with a declined verb and an infinitive verb, what case will the noun which the verbs be acting on be declined in; that of the infinitive or that of the declined verb?

For example:

I want to listen to the radio: Chcę słuchać radia or chcę słuchać radio? 

Dziekuję bardzo za pomoc.


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## jasio

smrd said:


> Chcę słuchać radia or chcę słuchać radio?


_Radio_ is not the best example because originally it was an undeclinable nouns and still some people treat it as such. Consequently, both forms are correct. 

But as a rule, you link the radio with listening rather than with wanting - so the noun should assume the case required by "słuchać". Let's take birds (ptaki) into account:

(ja) słucham ptaków (genitive)
(ja) chcę słuchać ptaków (genitive)
The predicate assumes the form required by the subject, which is default in this case, and included only for reference (I -> first person singular -> słucham, chcę).
The object (noun) assumes the case required by the verb with which it is linked - whether it is in a personal form (the first example) or an infinitive (the second one).


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## MB

_Chcę słuchać radio_ sounds distinctly odd to my Warsaw-native ears. _Chcę słuchać radia_ is OK.


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## Ben Jamin

smrd said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> In a sentence with a declined verb and an infinitive verb, what case will the noun which the verbs be acting on be declined in; that of the infinitive or that of the declined verb?
> 
> For example:
> 
> I want to listen to the radio: Chcę słuchać radia or chcę słuchać radio?
> 
> Dziekuję bardzo za pomoc.


You have started with a wrong assumption: the form of the verb (infinitive or finite verb) has nothing to do with the case of the object. The case of the object (noun) is dependent of the lexical meaning of the verb and if the expression is positive or negative, for example:

_Widzę_ człowieka (accusative). (I see a man). Będę _widzieć_ człowieka (accusative). I will see the man.


As you can see a noun following an infinitive is in the same case. The same applies to all examples beneath:
Nie widzę rzeki  (genitive). (I don't see the river).
Idę do miasta (genitive). ( I go to the town).
Jem makaron* (accusative)  widelcem** (instrumental).
Lubie przebywać w lesie (locative). (I like to stay in the forest).
Przyglądam się domowi (dative). (I'm watching the house).

*direct object  **indirect object.

In Polish the accusative of masculine inanimate nouns is equal to the nominative, which makes it difficult to see what case this is. Also the accusative of masculine animate nouns is equal to the genitive, which causes confusion also for the native Polish speakers.

FYI: Verbs are conjugated, substantives are declined.


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## jasio

szymbert said:


> _Chcę słuchać radio_ sounds distinctly odd to my Warsaw-native ears. _Chcę słuchać radia_ is OK.





jasio said:


> _Radio_ is not the best example because originally it was an undeclinable noun and still some people treat it as such.



Nowadays the inflected forms are overwhelming, indeed.


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## smrd

jasio said:


> But as a rule, you link the radio with listening rather than with wanting - so the noun should assume the case required by "słuchać". Let's take birds (ptaki) into account:
> 
> (ja) słucham ptaków (genitive)
> (ja) chcę słuchać ptaków (genitive)
> The predicate assumes the form required by the subject, which is default in this case, and included only for reference (I -> first person singular -> słucham, chcę).
> The object (noun) assumes the case required by the verb with which it is linked - whether it is in a personal form (the first example) or an infinitive (the second one).



What happens with the case which chcieć requires? 

Does this construction also work for other verbs which require an accusative or genitive declination for the object noun? Such as; I like to listen to the birds: Lubię słucham ptaków or I don't like listening to the birds: Nie lubię słucham ptaków. 



Ben Jamin said:


> You have started with a wrong assumption: the form of the verb (infinitive or finite verb) has nothing to do with the case of the object. The case of the object (noun) is dependent of the lexical meaning of the verb and if the expression is positive or negative, for example:
> 
> _Widzę_ człowieka (accusative). (I see a man). Będę _widzieć_ człowieka (accusative). I will see the man.



I accept that my assumption is wrong, but I arrived at it by observing that an object can only be declined in one case. That implies that, when two or more verbs are present in the same phrase one must then take precedence over the other. 



Ben Jamin said:


> Jem makaron* (accusative)  widelcem** (instrumental).
> Przyglądam się domowi (dative). (I'm watching the house).
> 
> *direct object  **indirect object.



This is another thing I'm not understanding either, the indirect and direct objects that some verbs can produce. I'll be sure to ask for clarification on this in another thread.



Ben Jamin said:


> FYI: Verbs are conjugated, substantives are declined



Point taken.


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## Ben Jamin

smrd said:


> I accept that my assumption is wrong, but I arrived at it by observing that an object can only be declined in one case. That implies that, when two or more verbs are present in the same phrase one must then take precedence over the other.



I don't understand what you mean by "an object can only be declined in one case". In Polish an object takes the case depending on the verb that is connected with the object, and, in the case when the verb requires the accusative, if the statement is positive or negative (a positive statement requires the accusative, a negative statement requires the genitive: "mam pieniądze (acc)" /I have money versus "nie mam pieniędzy (gen.)" / I have no money/I haven't got money/I don't have money.
Putting a modal verb before the main verb, or any other verb + the main verb in infinitive does not change the case of the object.

Słucham ptaków (genitive)
mogę/będę/chcę/muszę/lubię/ słuchać ptaków (genitive too).



smrd said:


> This is another thing I'm not understanding either, the indirect and direct objects that some verbs can produce. I'll be sure to ask for clarification on this in another thread.


I made an error here. "Widelcem" is not an indirect object, I think it is an adverbial.


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## jasio

smrd said:


> What happens with the case which chcieć requires?


It's irrelevant. After all, you do not want the birds (a noun) themselves, but you want to listen (verb), don't you? What specifically are you going to listen to is not grammatically related to your will, but to the act of listening.



smrd said:


> Does this construction also work for other verbs which require an accusative or genitive declination for the object noun? Such as; I like to listen to the birds: Lubię słucham ptaków or I don't like listening to the birds: Nie lubię słucham ptaków.


Please note that your sample constructions are incorrect: "lubić" behaves like a modal verb and requires infinitive rather than a finite form of the verb: "(nie) lubię słuch*ać* ptaków".

Re the merit, it works exactly the same. The phrases with "chcieć", "lubić", "musieć", "woleć", "móc", "pozwalać", etc. are constructed like modal phrases in English. Most of them can be used as regular verbs (they are not true modal verbs, thanks @Ben Jamin), and then they require noun object(s) in specific cases, just like any other verb. But they can also be used to create phrases similar to English modal phrases, when they influence only the form of the verb, which must be infinitive. The noun is then the object of the latter verb, and it is this verb which solely decides on the object case. So:

Lubię ptaki. _(Accusative) - I like birds._

Nie lubię ptaków. _(Genitive) - I do not like birds._
Słucham ptaków._ (Genitive) - I listen/I'm listening to the birds._
but

Lubię/chcę/wolę/muszę *słuchać* ptaków. _(Genitive) - I like/wantprefer/have to listen to the birds._

Nie lubię/chcę/muszę *słuchać* ptaków. _(Genitive) - I do not lik/want/have to listen to the birds._
The negative phrases are similar, because both verbs require the object in Genitive. However, the positive phrases differ because although _lubić_ requires the noun in the Accusative case, _słuchać_ requires the Genitive and the latter decides.


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## Ben Jamin

The issue of „modal verbs” in Polish is tricky. The grammarians don’t agree between themselves, and the whole thing looks rather unfinished. The only thing that we can say with a dose of certainty is that there are certain verbs in Polish that can be used as modifiers to other verbs, which then take the infinitive form. There are quite many of them, and I am not sure if I could compile a complete list of them. Those verbs don’t actually form a special grammar class, they conjugate just like other verbs, and most of them can be used also in constructions involving substantives and pronouns. The only exception seems to be the verb ’móc’ (can, be able, have the opportunity of, may) which as far as I know can’t be used in other combinations as with another verb. Maybe they can be just called ’verbs that can function also as modal verbs’.


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> The only exception seems to be the verb ’móc’ (can, be able, have the opportunity of, may) which as far as I know can’t be used in other combinations as with another verb.


Actually, in certain contexts "móc" is sometimes used with a noun, at least colloquially. Like in a dialogue: 


> - Nie pamiętam, czy możesz jeść wołowinę czy tylko kurczaka?
> - Mogę wołowinę.


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## Piotr_WRF

The verb _jeść_ is certainly implied in your sentence.

_Mogę [jeść] wołowinę._


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## Gochna

I agree with Piotr_WRF. In the sentence suggested by Jasio, the verb is implied. 

I would say that "musieć" (must) also requires a verb, and if there is no verb in the sentence, it's because it can be easily inferred. The example that comes to mind is _"Muszę [zrobić] siku"_ (I need to pee). I'm pretty sure most of Poles would skip the verb, but it's only because the meaning remains obvious.


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## jasio

Piotr_WRF said:


> The verb _jeść_ is certainly implied in your sentence.
> 
> _Mogę [jeść] wołowinę._


Valid point. On the other hand, the same can be said about many, if not most, other uses of the aforementioned "quasi-modal" verbs in similar phrases. Sometimes these implied verbs are more or less fixed, sometimes they depend strictly on context.

chcę [dostać] cukierka
lubię [jeść] lody
muszę [zrobić] siku ((C) @Gochna  )
wolę [zjeść] mięso
mogę [jeść] wołowinę
etc.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> Valid point. On the other hand, the same can be said about many, if not most, other uses of the aforementioned "quasi-modal" verbs in similar phrases. Sometimes these implied verbs are more or less fixed, sometimes they depend strictly on context.
> 
> chcę [dostać] cukierka
> lubię [jeść] lody
> muszę [zrobić] siku ((C) @Gochna  )
> wolę [zjeść] mięso
> mogę [jeść] wołowinę
> etc.


I agree that 'muszę', 'chcę' and 'mogę' usually imply a verb, even if it is not uttered, but  'wolę' and 'lubię' function perfectly without any verb whatsoever.


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