# el cumpleaños de mi hermano y el mio



## RURUMA

Hi,

I want to translate this sentence: El domingo es el cumpleaños de mi amigo y el mio.

On Sundays it is my friend and mine's birthday.

Is it correct?

THanks a lot!


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## Peterdg

No, not really.

What could work is: "Sunday is my friend's birthday and mine". Or: "Both my friend's birthday and mine are on (a) Sunday", but that could be interpreted differently: in the last case, the Sunday should not be the same Sunday for your birthday and your friend's (certainly if you add the "a" in "a Sunday").


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## gengo

This is a difficult problem even for native speakers, and sometimes there is no really elegant solution.  In such cases, a write-around is best.

The rule of joint possession in grammar is that only the last owner before the noun takes an apostrophe in a list.  For example, "We went to Mom and Dad's house," not "We went to Mom's and Dad's house."  However, this only applies when the possession is joint (that is, Mom and Dad both own the house), and if the possession is separate (that is, if Mom owns a house and Dad owns another house), then all the owners take an apostrophe and the noun must be plural:  Mom's and Dad's houses.

When one of the owners is a pronoun, that can make it problematic.  Grammatically, I believe it is correct to say "Sunday is my friend's and my birthday," but it somehow sounds odd, so I would re-write it.

Sunday my friend and I share a birthday.
My friend and I will both celebrate our birthdays on Sunday.
etc.


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## gringuitoloco

How about rearranging the order of people?
Sunday is my and my friend's birthday. That would be the best option I can see, without changing all the parts of speech or rearranging the entire sentence.


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## duvija

gringuitoloco said:


> How about rearranging the order of people?
> Sunday is my and my friend's birthday. That would be the best option I can see, without changing all the parts of speech or rearranging the entire sentence.



Really?


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## RoRo_en_el_foro

I think you miss the part that the birthday is on "this" sunday. Is it ok to say "on this sunday"?


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## gringuitoloco

duvija said:


> Really?


Sure. Why not? It sounds fine.

And RoRo, starting the sentence with Sunday implies that it is this Sunday. Although saying "This Sunday is...." and "...is on Sunday" would be acceptable, "On this Sunday" puts a lot of emphasis on _this, _at least for me. I'm not entirely sure that it's correct.


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## RoRo_en_el_foro

Oh I see. I was thinking it could be an ambiguous construction. So is he never saying this way that both birthdays are falling on a sunday this year?


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## gringuitoloco

If you want to, you can say: This Sunday is my and my friend's birthday. That's perfectly fine. To say that they both happen on Sunday, but those Sundays could be different, you'd have to say something like "My and my friend's birthday are on a Sunday (this year)."


I also just noticed that you have "On Sunday _it _is ...."

You could also say "On Sunday, it is (or "will be") my and my friend's birthday."





Another thought: You could probably get away with saying "On Sunday, it is my friend's birthday and mine (too)." It doesn't sound the most natural, but with the right intonation it wouldn't sound too odd.


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## FromPA

gringuitoloco said:


> How about rearranging the order of people?
> Sunday is my and my friend's birthday. That would be the best option I can see, without changing all the parts of speech or rearranging the entire sentence.





duvija said:


> Really?





gringuitoloco said:


> Sure. Why not? It sounds fine.



It sounds a bit strange to me. It's like saying "I and my friend..."


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## kayokid

The English sentence sounds terrible to me no matter what 'order of people' is used. I agree with gengo's comments in post #3. I am interested to know what Spanish speakers think of the original Spanish sentence. Somehow that also sounds bad to my ear. Any comments?


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## gringuitoloco

FromPA said:


> It sounds a bit strange to me. It's like saying "I and my friend..."


I think the reason it sounds odd is because usually people say "my friend and mine's birthday" which is incorrect. If we avoid it, we would normally rearrange the sentence. Personally, I would probably opt to change the sentence order to avoid having to make such a sentence that doesn't sit quite well the average English speaker. However, I do believe "my and my friend's birthday" to be grammatically correct. If we separate "and my friend's" with a set of commas, I think it sounds a little more natural: This Sunday is my, and my friend's, birthday. 
Or perhaps by adding the word "both": This Sunday is both my and my friend's birthday.

Thoughts?


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## JennyTW

I really don't like "my and my friend's birthday". Apart from the fact that it breaks the politeness rule of not putting ourselves first, to me it sounds very awkward, possibly because of the proximity of the two "mys". 

I much prefer and do actually use the structure "On Sunday it's my friend's and my birthday".


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## gringuitoloco

Alright. I did some more research on the topic and came up with something interesting.
According to Standard English, there are two ways to say it:
My friend's and my
My friend and my

The first one implies that there are two distinct items, in this case it's a birthday.
The second one takes away this implication, but is ambiguous because "my wife" could be a separate entity by itself and not part of the constituent.

Since a birthday is a singe day, and both people are celebrating the _same day_, the second choice "My friend and my" would be correct.


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## JennyTW

gringuitoloco said:


> Alright. I did some more research on the topic and came up with something interesting.
> According to Standard English, there are two ways to say it:
> My friend's and my
> My friend and my
> 
> The first one implies that there are two distinct items, in this case it's a birthday.
> The second one takes away this implication, but is ambiguous because "my wife" could be a separate entity by itself and not part of the constituent.
> 
> Since a birthday is a singe day, and both people are celebrating the _same day_, the second choice "My friend and my" would be correct.



It's a moot point, this last one. Although they're on the same day, I see birthdays as being more personal than say "He's my friend and my teacher". 

In any case, where did you find this "standard English". It may be the correct form in these circumstances, as you say, but I can honestly say I've never heard it used and certainly never used it myself, though I have the other form.


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## gringuitoloco

Here's a site where one of the linguists says it's standard.
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4226/my-wife-and-is-seafood-collaboration-dinner

Here's one that says it's "silly".
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm

These ones, like the last, doesn't acknowledge if there's a difference.
http://bizwritingtip.com/?p=1754
http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/possessive-pronoun.html

It's nearly impossible to look for information like this, because it's not very common. And any search for using compound possessives with nouns and pronouns have them separate. The one site says that the extra apostrophe implies separate ownership, whereas the other sites don't acknowledge the fact that a possessive (noun+pronoun) could be separate or dual ownership. 
I'll reiterate that it's best to adjust the sentence to avoid it altogether.


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## Peterdg

If only English had a RAE (Royal Academy of English)


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## JennyTW

Peterdg said:


> If only English had a RAE (Royal Academy of English)


Are you kidding me?!!


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## Peterdg

JennyTW said:


> Are you kidding me?!!


No.


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## JennyTW

Peterdg said:


> No.


Sorry, it's just that I think it's too stuffy and restrictive. I would HATE there to
be one. Some old men in a room deciding how I should and shouldn't talk and not allowing new words or ones from other languages etc.


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## JennyTW

gringuitoloco said:


> Here's a site where one of the linguists says it's standard.
> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4226/my-wife-and-is-seafood-collaboration-dinner
> 
> Here's one that says it's "silly".
> http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm
> 
> These ones, like the last, doesn't acknowledge if there's a difference.
> http://bizwritingtip.com/?p=1754
> http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/possessive-pronoun.html
> 
> It's nearly impossible to look for information like this, because it's not very common. And any search for using compound possessives with nouns and pronouns have them separate. The one site says that the extra apostrophe implies separate ownership, whereas the other sites don't acknowledge the fact that a possessive (noun+pronoun) could be separate or dual ownership.
> I'll reiterate that it's best to adjust the sentence to avoid it altogether.



Thanks for those links. Vey interesting. I'm happy to see that generally the form I use is preferred -"My friend's and my birthday..."

The option they give in the first link of "my friend and I's teacher", apart from sounding horrible, has a flawed logic, I feel. It says it's correct because it considers "my friend and I" as a composite subject. But in that case it would be correct to say;
"Give it to me friend and I"
and generally it's accepted that it isn't correct.


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## Peterdg

JennyTW said:


> Sorry, it's just that I think it's too stuffy and restrictive. I would HATE there to
> be one. Some old men in a room deciding how I should and shouldn't talk and not allowing new words or ones from other languages etc.


Well, it's not really something that should be discussed here but rather in the Culture café. But, while we are at it:

1) It's very confronting to see that one's own use of the language does not correspond to what is considered to be the standard usage.
2) People are very reluctant now a days to accept authority.
3) Rejecting such an authoritive work is assuming that these old men aren't scientists but idiots by definition.
4) It would avoid endless discussions like A says this and B says this but C says something different and D doesn't agree;  whoever A, B, C and D are.

You can either agree or not agree with what is said in such a reference work, but at least it is clear how one's opinion relates to the official theory.


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## JennyTW

Peterdg said:


> Well, it's not really something that should be discussed here but rather in the Culture café. But, while we are at it:
> 
> 1) It's very confronting to see that one's own use of the language does not correspond to what is considered to be the standard usage.
> 2) People are very reluctant now a days to accept authority.
> 3) Rejecting such an authoritive work is assuming that these old men aren't scientists but idiots by definition.
> 4) It would avoid endless discussions like A says this and B says this but C says something different and D doesn't agree;  whoever A, B, C and D are.
> 
> You can either agree or not agree with what is said in such a reference work, but at least it is clear how one's opinion relates to the official theory.



But as we know from this forum every country/region has different variations (in both Spanish and English). Here generally people are careful to say "that isn't correct where I live", but does the RAE do that?


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## Peterdg

JennyTW said:


> But as we know from this forum every country/region has different variations (in both Spanish and English). Here generally people are careful to say "that isn't correct where I live", but does the RAE do that?


Well yes, perhaps much to your surprise; up to the point that most of the criticisms to the RAE that I read nowadays is that they are too indulgent. I remember a recent thread where someone corrected someone else for using "cantaste*s*" (I don't remember the exact verb, but that doesn't matter); the RAE now says that it is acceptable in some "voseo" regions. It used to be different, that's true, but nowadays, they really do take different usage into account.


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## JennyTW

Peterdg said:


> Well yes, perhaps much to your surprise; up to the point that most of the criticisms to the RAE that I read nowadays is that they are too indulgent. I remember a recent thread where someone corrected someone else for using "cantaste*s*" (I don't remember the exact verb, but that doesn't matter); the RAE says that it is acceptable in some "voseo" regions. It used to be different, that's true, but nowadays, they really do take different usage into account.



So if that's the case they would probably also say that all these options are possible somewhere (my friend and I's etc), so we would still have the debate!


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## RoRo_en_el_foro

Probably, but if you have Academies, they could teach you where to use and where not to use the term. You can disagree with some terms but RAE is really useful, our own language would be a kind of Blerch of grammar and syntaxis without the Academies (RAE is not the only one). Also, it is important to not lose logic when transmitting an idea, and when a language forget this, with the time you end finding that even when you are a native, you don`t know how to say something before you heared once how to do it. I won't accuse any language for that.



kayokid said:


> The English sentence sounds terrible to me no matter what 'order of people' is used. I agree with gengo's comments in post #3. I am interested to know what Spanish speakers think of the original Spanish sentence. Somehow that also sounds bad to my ear. Any comments?



"El domingo es el cumpleaños de mi amigo y el mío". No suena raro, aunque no es del todo inambiguo. Si se refiere a que los dos cumplen años el mismo día, quizás sea más común decirlo así, "Los dos cumplimos años este domingo", si se refiere a que los dos lo festejan, quizás sea más común decirlo así, "Los dos festejamos nuestro cumpleaños este domingo", aclarando "lo festejamos juntos" (si hacen una sola fiesta), o si lo festejan por separado (normalmente cuando una persona dice esa oración es para hacer un comentario sobre dónde o cómo serán los festejos).

Igual repito, en una conversación contextualizada en la que se sabe por qué lo está diciendo, no suena raro. Todo esto en Argentina, quizás en otras regiones sí les suene mal.

BTW this is the Blerch http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running


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