# Roman, romain, romanesque, ...



## Yendred

The lexical field is rich and also quite rich in false friends between French and English.

*French - English (definition):*

_roman - novel_ (noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
_romain - Roman_ (adj: related to the city of Rome or the Roman Empire)
_roman - Romance_ (adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
_roman - Romanesque_ (adj: related to the style of architecture used in Europe from the 9th to the 12th century)
_romanesque - romantic, novelistic_ (adj: characteristic of romances, characteristic of novels)
What about in other languages?


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## Welsh_Sion

*Cymraeg/Welsh*

Very magpie-like in our choices,  I feel:

_roman - novel - nofel_ (noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
_romain - Roman_ - _Rhufeinig_ (adj: related to the city of Rome or to the Roman Empire)
_roman - Romance_ - _Romáwns_ (adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
_roman - Romanesque_ - _Romanésg_ (adj: related to the style of architecture used in Europe from the 9th to the 12th century)
_romanesque - romantic, novelistic_ -_ rhamantaidd_ (adj: characteristic of romances, characteristic of novels)

I guess one of the important things to draw on is the use of the acuted vowel in a couple of these. This is to denote rare examples of stress being on the ultimate syllable. (Normal Welsh practice being to stress the penultimate syllable.)

Also the letter <rh> has the rare (for European languages) pronunciation of a voiceless alveolar tap. Not all natives master it - including me - a speech impediment known as 'tafod tew' (or 'thick tongue'). In my case, it's more like a voiceless uvular fricative or sometimes 'the Parisian r'.


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## Welsh_Sion

I think we missed one, too:

*a Romance/romance - Rhamant/rhamant*

The one with the capital refers to a story such as Peredur (which was subsequently Normanised as 'Perceval du Graal'). The latter of course is a story of love.


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## Yendred

Welsh_Sion said:


> a Romance/romance - Rhamant/rhamant


Thank you!
Let me add both lines for French.

*French - English (definition):*

_roman courtois, roman de chevalerie_ - _Romance _(noun: popular narrative in noble courts of the Middle Ages)
_romance - romance_ (noun: love affair)


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## AndrasBP

Hungarian:

1. *regény *[ˈrɛɡeːɲ] (a neologism created in the 19th c.) - _novel_ (noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
2. *római *- _Roman_ (adj: related to the city of Rome or to the Roman Empire)
3. *újlatin *(lit. "new Latin") - _Romance_ (adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
4. *román *- _Romanesque_ (adj: related to the style of architecture
5. *romantikus *- romantic (as for 'novelistic', we don't have a good word for that)

+1: Our word for 'Romanian' is 'román', the same as 'Romanesque' (#4), e.g. 'román stílus'.


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## Yendred

AndrasBP said:


> Our word for 'Romanian' is 'román'


You mean "_related to __Romania__ or their language_"?


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## Yendred

AndrasBP said:


> *regény *[ˈrɛɡeːɲ] (a neologism created in the 19th c.) - _novel_ (noun: a literary fictitious work in prose


19th is indeed the century for novels _par excellence_ 



AndrasBP said:


> Our word for 'Romanian' is 'román'


Okay thank you! Then let me add the line for French.

*French - English (definition):*

_roumain - Romanian_ (adj: related to Romania or their language)


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## Welsh_Sion

Romanian (of the country): Rwmanaidd
Romanian (citizen of the country): Rwmaniad
Romanian (language): Rwmaneg


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## Yendred

Welsh_Sion said:


> Also the letter <rh> has the rare (for European languages) pronunciation of a voiceless alveolar tap. Not all natives master it - including me - a speech impediment known as 'tafod tew' (or 'thick tongue'). In my case, it's more like a voiceless uvular fricative or sometimes 'the Parisian r'.


Can you link to an audio excerpt so that we can hear the sound?


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## Welsh_Sion

Here's a possible variant:






He's definitely closer to it than I'll ever be! 






And this is even worse for me!

Some call these 'trills' but others just use 'taps'. I can't do either!


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## Yendred

Well, to me the difficulty is similar to the Russian /xr/ as in хром /xrom/ (_chromium, _the metal).
What do you think @AndrasBP?


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## סייבר־שד

Spanish is unsurprisingly close to French when it comes to such terms, of course:

• *roman* - _novela_ (literary work in prose)
• *romain* - _romano_ (related to Rome or the Roman Empire)
• *roman* - _romance_, _románico_ (related to the languages derived from Latin)
• *roman* - _románico_ (the architecture style)
• *romanesque* - _romanesco_ (characteristic of novels)
• *romance* - _romance_ (popular narrative in the Middle Ages)
• *romance* - _romance_ (love affair)


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## Yendred

סייבר־שד said:


> *roman* - _novela_ (literary work in prose)


Except for that one, which is surprisingly close to English!


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## Yendred

סייבר־שד said:


> *romance* - _romance_ (popular narrative in the Middle Ages)
> • *romance* - _romance_ (love affair)


Isn't it rather _romanza_?


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## סייבר־שד

Yendred said:


> Except for that one, which is surprisingly close to English!


True, but I meant that as a whole. 



Yendred said:


> Isn't it rather _romanza_?


Actually, no. We do have _romanza_, but that one refers only to an aria-like piece of music for voice and an instrument, or even a purely instrumental work in that manner, such as Mendelssohn's famous _"Romanzas sin palabras" _for the piano (= _"Songs without words")._


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## elroy

Arabic:

_roman - novel_(noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
رواية /riwa:ja/ (native Arabic word, from the root ر-و-ي, “to tell a story”)

_romain - Roman_(adj: related to the city of Rome or the Roman Empire)
روماني /ru:ma:ni/

_roman - Romance_(adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
رومانسي /ro:mansi/ 

_roman - Romanesque_ (adj: related to the style of architecture used in Europe from the 9th to the 12th century)
رومانسكي /ro:maniski/

_romanesque - romantic, novelistic_(adj: characteristic of romances, characteristic of novels)
romantic: رومانسي /ro:mansi/
novelistic: روائي /riwa:ʔi/ 

_roman courtois, roman de chevalerie_ - _Romance _(noun: popular narrative in noble courts of the Middle Ages)
رواية فروسية /riwa:ja furu:sijja/ (literally, “chivalric novel”)
The English term I know for this is “chivalric romance.” 

_romance - romance_(noun: love affair)
علاقة رومانسية /ʕala:qa ro:mansijja/ (literally, “romantic relationship”)

_roumain - Romanian_ (adj: related to Romania or their language)
روماني /ru:ma:ni/

As you can see, a couple words are used for more than one thing:

روماني /ru:ma:ni/ = Roman, Romanian 
رومانسي /ro:mansi/ = Romance, romantic


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> روماني /ru:ma:ni/ = Roman, Romanian


They are linked of course  The Roman origin of the name Romania is trickier than we can think though:
Name of Romania - Wikipedia


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## elroy

Randomly, a turkey 🦃 is a ديك رومي /di:k ru:mi/, a “Roman rooster,” in Standard Arabic. 🤷🏻‍♂️

(This uses a different word for “Roman,” رومي /ru:mi/ rather than روماني /ru:ma:ni/.)


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## Yendred

elroy said:


> This uses a different word for “Roman,” رومي /ru:mi/ rather than روماني /ru:ma:ni/.


This reminds me of _roumi_, directly borrowed from Arabic:
roumi — Wiktionnaire


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## סייבר־שד

Yendred said:


> This reminds me of _roumi_, directly borrowed from Arabic:
> roumi — Wiktionnaire


Which, naturally, reminds us of French _romaïque_ (= Modern Greek), and which Spanish has, as well: _romaico_.


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## Abaye

Yendred said:


> This reminds me of _roumi_, directly borrowed from Arabic:
> roumi — Wiktionnaire


Roumi is corn flour in Jewish Yemenite Arabic, apparently because corn (maize) arrived from the general direction of Rome to the southern Arab lands.


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## סייבר־שד

Since we sadly don't get to see that much Galician around here, I thought it might be nice to include it, as well:

• *roman* - _novela_ (literary work in prose)
• *romain* - _romano_ (relating to Rome or the Roman Empire)
• *roman* - _romance_, _románico_ (relating to languages derived from Latin)
• *roman* - _románico_ (architectural style)
• *romanesque* - _novelesco _(characteristic of novels)
• *romance* - _romance _(popular narrative in the Middle Ages)
• *romance* - _amorío _(a love affair; Spanish also has this one, by the by )

This time around I decided to add these three, as well, the second term is Spanish, the third, Galician: 

• *roumain* - _rumano_ - _romanés_
• *romand* - _romando - romando _
(I do have to point out that I don't think I've ever heard _romando _used in Spanish, at least not here in Mexico, where we would most likely just say _"la Suiza de habla francesa" _or something to that effect. Wikipedia, though, includes the following equivalents to *Suisse romande*: _la Romandía, Suiza romanda, Suiza romana _and _Suiza francesa_, and they are exactly the same in Galician, only Switzerland is spelled _Suíza _there.)
• *romanche* - _romanche - romanche_


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## apmoy70

Greek:

_roman - novel - μυθιστόρημα _[mi.θi.ˈs̠t̠o̞.ɾi.ma] (neut.) --> lit. _fictional-story_ («μῦθος» + «ἱστορίᾱ»)
_romain - Roman - Ρωμαϊκός/-κή/-κό _[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈci] (fem.)/[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈko̞] (neut.)
_roman - Romance - Ρωμανική/-κές - Λατινογενής/-νείς _[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈci] (fem. nom. sinɡ.)/[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈce̞s̠] (fem. nom. pl.) - [la.t̠i.no̞.ʝe̞.ˈnis̞] (fem. nom. sinɡ./pl.) --> lit. _Latin-origin_ («Λάτιον» + suffix «-γενής»)
_roman - Romanesque - Ρωμανικός _[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈko̞s] (masc. because as an adj. it modifies the noun «ρυθμός» [ɾi.ˈθmo̞s̞] --> _style, rhythm_ which is masculine)
_romanesque - romantic - ρομαντικός/-κή/-κό _[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ci] (fem.)/[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ˈko̞] (neut.) 
_romance - romance - ρομάντζο _[ɾo̞.ˈmaŋ.d͡z̠o̞] (neut.) < It. romanzo (popular narrative in the Middle Ages)
_romance - romance - ρομάντζο _[ɾo̞.ˈmaŋ.d͡z̠o̞] (neut.) < It. romanzo (love affair)
_roumain - Romanian - Ρουμανικός/-κή/-κό _[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈci] (fem.)/[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈko̞] (neut.); the country is _Ρουμανία _[ɾu.ma.ˈni.a] (fem.)


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## Włoskipolak 72

Polish

roman -novel- *powieść* 
romain - Roman- *rzymski* 
roman - Romance-  *romański *
roman - Romanesque - styl *romański , romanizm* 
romanesque - romantic , novelistic - *romantyczny *


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## Penyafort

*Catalan*:

_roman - novel_(noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
*novel·la* /nu'βεɫɫə/ : _una novel·la i dues novel·les curtes_, a novel and two novellas

_romain - Roman_(adj: related to the city of Rome or the Roman Empire)
*romà */ru'ma/ : _els romans a l'Imperi Romà_, Romans in the Roman Empire

_roman - Romance_(adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
*romànic */ru'manik/ : _les llengües romàniques, _the Romance languages

_roman - Romanesque_(adj: related to the style of architecture used in Europe from the 9th to the 12th century)
*romànic */ru'manik/ : _una església romànica_, a Romanesque church

_romanesque - romantic, novelistic_(adj: characteristic of romances, characteristic of novels)
*novel·lesc* /nuβəɫ'ɫεsk/: _una aventura novel·lesca_, a fantastic/storybook adventure

There is also:

*romanç */ru'mans/, which can be: 1) (Proto-)Romance (language) | 2) a Medieval genre, usually a chivalric romance | 3) a type of poem or ballad | 4) story, often negative in the idiom _no em vinguis amb romanços, _don't tell me your whole life story now!

*romàntic */ru'mantik/ = 1) Romantic | 2) romantic

*romanès */rumə'nεs/ = Romanian


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## Włoskipolak 72

apmoy70 said:


> Greek:
> 
> _roman - novel - μυθιστόρημα _[mi.θi.ˈs̠t̠o̞.ɾi.ma] (neut.) --> lit. _fictional-story_ («μῦθος» + «ἱστορίᾱ»)
> _romain - Roman - Ρωμαϊκός/-κή/-κό _[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈci] (fem.)/[ɾo̞.ma.i.ˈko̞] (neut.)
> _roman - Romance - Ρωμανική/-κές - Λατινογενής/-νείς _[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈci] (fem. nom. sinɡ.)/[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈce̞s̠] (fem. nom. pl.) - [la.t̠i.no̞.ʝe̞.ˈnis̞] (fem. nom. sinɡ./pl.) --> lit. _Latin-origin_ («Λάτιον» + suffix «-γενής»)
> _roman - Romanesque - Ρωμανικός _[ɾo̞.ma.ni.ˈko̞s] (masc. because as an adj. it modifies the noun «ρυθμός» [ɾi.ˈθmo̞s̞] --> _style, rhythm_ which is masculine)
> _romanesque - romantic - ρομαντικός/-κή/-κό _[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ci] (fem.)/[ɾo̞.maŋ.di.ˈko̞] (neut.)
> _romance - romance - ρομάντζο _[ɾo̞.ˈmaŋ.d͡z̠o̞] (neut.) < It. romanzo (popular narrative in the Middle Ages)
> *romance - romance - ρομάντζο [ɾo̞.ˈmaŋ.d͡z̠o̞] (neut.) < It. romanzo (love affair)*
> _roumain - Romanian - Ρουμανικός/-κή/-κό _[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈko̞s̠] (masc.)/[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈci] (fem.)/[ɾu.ma.ni.ˈko̞] (neut.); the country is _Ρουμανία _[ɾu.ma.ˈni.a] (fem.)


Italian

romanzo giallo = detective story = powieść kryminalna or kryminał  _(Pl.)_
romanzo rosa = romance novel  = powieść sentymentalna
romanzo sceneggiato = novel adapted for television
romanzo d'amore = love story = historia miłosna, romans.
romazno d'avventura= adventure story = powieść przygodowa 

la sua infanzia sembra un romanzo = his childhood reads like a novel




Yendred said:


> The lexical field is rich and also quite rich in false friends between French and English.
> 
> *French - English (definition):*
> 
> _roman - novel_ (noun: a literary fictitious work in prose)
> _romain - Roman_ (adj: related to the city of Rome or the Roman Empire)
> _roman - Romance_ (adj: related to the languages derived from Latin)
> _roman - Romanesque_ (adj: related to the style of architecture used in Europe from the 9th to the 12th century)
> _romanesque - romantic, novelistic_ (adj: characteristic of romances, characteristic of novels)
> What about in other languages?



In Polish *romans* means notably passade , aventure , liasion..

mieć z kimś romans = avoir une liaison (amoureuse) avec qn.
romansować (verb) =to have an affair with sb, intrigue.
miłostka = passade , passing fancy ?


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## clamor

Yendred said:


> Well, to me the difficulty is similar to the Russian /xr/ as in хром /xrom/ (_chromium, _the metal).
> What do you think @AndrasBP?


Sauf que /xr/ en russe c'est 2 sons, alors que [r̥] c'en est un seul. La différence entre [r] et [r̥] c'est comme celle par exemple entre [z] et [s ].


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