# muro vs. mura



## disegno

Non mi ricordo mai quando si usa 'muro' e quando si usa 'mura'. è la stessa cosa con 'tavolo' e tavola'. Qual'è la differenza?

Per esempio...posso usare muro per descrivere la struttura intorno a Luca? e una mura per una pareta nella casa? o vice versa?

Mangio in un ristorante a una tavola o a un tavolo?


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## gaia68

"Muro" is the singular, masculin, and it has two plurals: muri (masculin) and mura (feminin). The English translation is anyway wall, walls. In Italian you would normally use "muro" and "muri"to indicate the wall of the house, while MURA, the plural, would be used to translate town "walls"


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## lsp

gaia68 said:
			
		

> In Italian you would normally use "muro" and "muri"to indicate the wall of the house, while MURA, the plural, would be used to translate town "walls"


And parete?


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## franx

Parete is any structure that divides two things and keeps them separated, muro is a well-built barrier generally made of bricks. (Mura is simply the Latin plural that's remained in use to indicate specifically the outside walls of a city or a castle)

Hence, within a house you can pretty much use parete and muro interchangeably, except if there is a really thin wall it would be improper to call it muro (although people might sometimes do it). However, in biology you'll find lots of pareti (the walls of your hearth, of your chest, etc...) but not a single muro, hopefully...


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## Plodder

So, would the singular / plural of muro go like this:

il muro, i muri
il muro, le mura?

Plodder


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## Silvia

Yes, Plodder 

Also, please note that in some areas you might find a dialectal use of mura for the singular "wall"!


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## franx

Silvia said:
			
		

> Also, please note that in some areas you might find a dialectal use of mura for the singular "wall"!


Really? As in what, "una mura"?


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## Silvia

franx said:
			
		

> Really? As in what, "una mura"?


Yes, I guess so. I've heard "la mura" ...

I wouldn't be oversurprised... as there are people in the South saying "lo scatolo" !


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## Elisa68

Silvia said:
			
		

> ..as there are people in the South saying "lo scatolo" !


Con mia sorpresa il De Mauro ne dà la definizione, pur indicando _regionale... _


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## Silvia

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> Con mia sorpresa il De Mauro ne dà la definizione, pur indicando _regionale... _


meridionale


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## paterpatriae

Ciao:

What then would be the difference, if any, between mura and cinta?

Grazie!


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## moodywop

paterpatriae said:
			
		

> What then would be the difference, if any, between mura and cinta?


 
_Mura _is singular and means "town/city walls". _Cinta _is singular and refers to the ring of walls surrounding a town/city so the meaning is more or less the same. You will often hear _cinta muraria, cinta difensiva._

Incidentally, _cinto/cinta _is also the past participle of _cingere(surround, enclose)_: _una città cinta di mura._

Having just noticed the following post:



			
				silvia said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be oversurprised... as there are people in the South saying "lo scatolo" !


 
I was surprised to notice that Southern regional uses deserve two crosses as well as an exclamation mark. I'll have to watch my usage


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## Magixo

What is the difference between ‘muri’ and ‘mura’?
Why can’t we simply say: ‘tra le quattro muri’? Why do we have to change the gender?
Could you give some more examples of nouns that change the gender in the plural?
Is that a common thing in Italian language?

Thanks,
Magixo


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## Necsus

Hi, Magixo!
The Italian noun has two plurals, but we use mostly the masculine "muri", the feminine "mura" is used to define the boundary walls (le mura di cinta), the town walls (le mura cittadine), the circle of walls (la cerchia di mura),  and in the expressions "fra quattro mura" and (sometimes) "le mura di casa".


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## mercedesm

ciao Magixo
 about names that change gender in the plural,it's not very common, but there are some, here a couple of ideas:

il dito, le dita (finger, fingers)
il ginocchio, le ginocchia (knee, knees)
l'urlo, le urla (scream)
il budello, le budella ( something like intrails or so... excuse-me, I don't have a correct translation) However, this one is a bit unusual, in fact we always refer to "budella" in its plural form...
I bet there are many more...
ciao ciao mercedes


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## ElaineG

mercedesm said:
			
		

> ciao Magixo
> About names that change gender in the plural,it's not very common, but there are some, here a couple of ideas:
> 
> il dito, le dita (finger, fingers)
> il ginocchio, le ginocchia (knee, knees)
> l'urlo, le urla (scream)
> il budello, le budella ( something like entrails or so... excuse me, I don't have a correct translation). However, this one is a bit unusual, in fact we always refer to "budella" in its plural form...
> I bet there are many more...
> ciao ciao mercedes


 
Budella would be entrails, or more commonly, intestines or guts.

If you scroll down in this thread there are many examples of "transgendered" nouns: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=106721


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## Magixo

Necsus said:
			
		

> Hi, Magixo!
> The Italian noun has two plurals, but we use mostly the masculine "muri", the feminine "mura" is used to define the boundary walls (le mura di cinta), the town walls (le mura cittadine), the circle of walls (la cerchia di mura), and in the expressions "fra quattro mura" and (sometimes) "le mura di casa".


 
Si, nella mia lezione si dice: '_tra le quatro mura domestiche' _... _trovano lo spazio gli animali diversi._


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## Glamona

Si dice il muro - i muri per quelli di casa (in inglese "walls").
Si dice le mura (senza singolare) per quelli intorno a una citta` (citty walls) e che si vedono intorno alle citta` in Europa , China. Le mura sono fatte di pietra, mattone. Le mura dovevano proteggere la citta` dell'intrusione straniera.

Quanto al tavolo, si dice il tavolo - i tavoli quando si pensa al tavolo solamente come un oggetto, che poi puo` essere di diversa forma (per es. tavolo rotondo).
"Io preferisco quel tavol*o* a destra."
"Sediamoci al tavol*o* per giocare alle carte."


Si dice la tavola, quando c'e` il cibo sul tavolo.
"Mettetevi a tavol*a*. Il pranzo e` pronto."
"Sediamoci a tavol*a* (per mangiare)."

Di tutto questo sono 100% sicura, perche` di questo ho studiato nella facolta`.


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## federicoft

I think the best way to understand the difference is this one:

_Tavola_ (when referring to a table) is indicative of an abstract condition, i.e. when you sit to have lunch/dinner.
_Tavolo_ is the physical object.


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## BlueCatAdelaide

"Muro" is singular, "Mura" plural... "Muri" is just bad Italian. When talking about town walls always use "Mura".
"Tavolo" has legs and you eat or work on it, "Tavola" is "board" in any possible meaning. In figurative speach you use "Tavola" even for the legged one, in espressions like "La buona tavola", "Mettere in tavola un discorso" etch...
I know it sounds complicated but you just need practice and examples


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## tsoapm

BlueCatAdelaide said:


> "Muri" is just bad Italian


Anche Devoto-Oli?





> muro (mù-ro) s.m. (pl. *i muri*, m.; le mura, f.)


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## Teerex51

BlueCatAdelaide said:


> "Muro" is singular, "Mura" plural... "Muri" is just bad Italian. When talking about town walls always use "Mura".


You might want to consult a dictionary (or read this very thread) before dispensing dubious advice on your first post. 

The standard plural of _muro _is _muri_. Hardly bad Italian. _Mura _is the _collective plural_ (see example below) and is also used in several idiomatic expressions.


The bullet pierced two walls. _Il proiettile passò attraverso due muri._
The city walls date back to Roman times. _Le mura cittadine risalgono ad epoca romana._


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## BlueCatAdelaide

This might well be my first post but I know what I'm saying. I am Italian - lived, studied (architecture by the way) and worked in there for 37 years.
Plural of "muro" is "mura", if you want to speak a good italian, even when you talk of a building, I know a lot of people use "muri" but that is not as good as "mura".
"Muri" should be used only when talking of separate walls ("le scritte sui muri" or your example). If the walls are continous/adjoining you should use "mura".
This is from TRECCANI (is that good enough for you guys?)
"...Infine, è stato osservato che i plurali in _-a _si comportano per certi versi più come lessemi autonomi che come forme flesse di un lessema. Come i lessemi, e a differenza delle forme flesse, essi possono fungere da base di derivazione: il significato di _cornuto_ o _cornificare_ mostra che essi sono derivati da _corna_ e non da _corno_. Inoltre, il loro significato spesso non corrisponde alla semplice pluralizzazione del significato del singolare. Ciò è particolarmente evidente nei casi di doppio plurale, uno collettivo, di massa, non individuato in _-a _e uno in _-i _che al singolare invece corrisponde: _le cervella_ sono diverse da una pluralità di _cervelli_, _le braccia _o _le corna _sono concettualizzate come entità complessiva e non come pluralità di _bracci_ (_i bracci della gru_, _del fiume_) o _corni_ (_i due corni del dilemma_), _le mura_ sono l’insieme che costituisce un fabbricato e non una pluralità di _muri_."


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## Teerex51

In your meaningless rant you cherry-pick quotes from the Treccani, but you fail to mention an all-important line, this one: *muro* s. m. [lat. mūrus] (pl. i muri e, con valore collettivo, le mura)
_
"Muri" is just bad Italian _- you say - but that line from the dictionary is enough to prove you dead wrong. You can back-pedal and waffle all you want now. 

This may be a forum for learners, but even the naivest of readers will recognize your drivel for what it is.


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## Mary49

BlueCatAdelaide said:


> I know what I'm saying. I am Italian - lived, studied (architecture by the way) and worked in there for 37 years.
> Plural of "muro" is "mura", if you want to speak a good italian, even when you talk of a building, I know a lot of people use "muri" but that is not as good as "mura". "Muri" should be used only when talking of separate walls ("le scritte sui muri" or your example). If the walls are continous/adjoining you should use "mura".This is from TRECCANI (is that good enough for you guys?)


Scusa, ma TRECCANI non dice questo, io leggo:
http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/muro/
*"muro* s. m. [lat. _m__ū__rus_] (pl. *i muri* e, con *valore collettivo, le mura*)"_...  Il plur. femm., le mura, è  più frequente del masch., soprattutto per indicare più opere murarie  considerate nel loro complesso, in quanto servono a chiudere, a  recingere. Con riferimento a un ambiente, chiuso, protetto, che dà  quindi sicurezza, o che, al contrario, per avere l’entrata e l’uscita  impedita, limita la libertà". _
http://dizionari.corriere.it/dizionario_italiano/M/muro.shtml
*s.m. (pl.m. muri nelle accez. 1, 2, 3; pl.f. mura nell'accez. 5 e in altri usi particolari, spec. fig.)* _*1* Struttura muraria di sviluppo verticale, costituita  di pietre, mattoni e laterizi vari sovrapposti e tenuti insieme o meno  da calce, cemento e altri agglomeranti; può essere elemento costitutivo  di edifici, come facciata esterna o complesso di pareti interne, oppure  può svolgere funzione di sostegno, di recinzione, di delimitazione, di  divisione
*2* fig. Qualsiasi elemento  che, per solidità, spessore o altre caratteristiche, richiami un muro  oppure ne svolga le funzioni di impedimento, ostacolo, protezione
*5* (*al pl.*) L'insieme delle antiche strutture murarie difensive di una città o anche di un edificio._

http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/...za-linguistica/domande-risposte/plurali-doppi
_"Il muro --> i muri / le mura. Il maschile per i muri di una casa, o quelli che costeggiano una strada; il femminile per le mura di cinta di una città, oppure per indicare la casa nel suo complesso: stare fra le proprie mura"_.
Non si può dire che "muri" sia peggiore di "mura" o che sia "bad Italian" (a proposito, Italian si scrive con l'iniziale maiuscola).

Ciao Teerex


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## BlueCatAdelaide

There is no need of being rude... everyone in here was saying that "muri" should be generally used as plural (apart from the city walls case), and I say that that is bad Italian, which is. "Muri" should be used in very rare cases.
Sorry guys, I tought you were here to learn and not to quarrel. I might be in the wrong place.

Hi Mary,
that's where I got it from.
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/neutro_(Enciclopedia_dell'Italiano)/


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## Holymaloney

Hi BCA 
Given that we're not here to quarrel but to learn, maybe you'll benefit from these corrections yourself 


BlueCatAdelaide said:


> There is no need *to be *rude... everyone in here was saying that "muri" should be generally used as plural (apart from the *example of *city walls), and I say that that is bad Italian, which *it *is. "Muri" should be used in very rare cases.
> Sorry guys, I t*h*ought you were here to learn and not to quarrel. I might be in the wrong place.


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## BlueCatAdelaide

Holymaloney said:


> Hi BCA
> Given that we're not here to quarel but to learn, maybe you'll benefit from these corrections yourself



Hi Holymaloney,

Thanks for the corrections, as I said before I lived in Italy for the great majority of my life and still in the process of learning English, that's why I'm here 
By the way, shouldn't quarRel be with 2 "r"? 
Cheers


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## Holymaloney

BlueCatAdelaide said:


> Hi Holymaloney,
> 
> Thanks for the corrections, as I said before I lived in Italy for the great majority of my life and still in the process of learning English, that's why I'm here
> By the way, shouldn't quarRel be with 2 "r"?
> Cheers


Quite right BCA , I'll go and correct that now .


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## tsoapm

Mary49 said:


> http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/...za-linguistica/domande-risposte/plurali-doppi
> _"Il muro --> i muri / le mura. Il maschile per i muri di una casa, o quelli che costeggiano una strada_





BlueCatAdelaide said:


> everyone in here was saying that "muri" should be generally used as plural (apart from the city walls case), and I say that that is bad Italian, which is. "Muri" should be used in very rare cases.


I guess that _la Crusca _isn’t actually the Gospel, but your view seems quite controversial. The ‘walls of a house’ is a very common case rather than a rare one. Boh.


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## Teerex51

Mark Dobson said:


> I guess that _la Crusca _isn’t actually the Gospel, but your view seems quite controversial.



Agreed, _La Crusca_ may not be the Gospel, but it still deserves infinitely more credit than a crank's attention-seeking post. While on the subject of attention, I think we ought to let this thread die. It already contains all necessary info for those who need to brush up on their Italian grammar. Fueling the flames of delusion won't bring anything worthwhile.


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