# police, shooting, the law and everything.



## MarkLondres

on a lighter note SO13 have just shot and killed a suicide bomber at Stockwell station


----------



## garryknight

lsp said:
			
		

> Obviously there are mixed feelings about it.


I wonder if the feelings are any more mixed now it's common knowledge that the guy who was shot by police on Stockwell tube station was a Brazilian with no connection to the recent bombings. (Source: BBC)


----------



## modgirl

In no way am I condoning the shooting of that innocent man, but there are a couple of haunting questions.  


1)  Why would he wear a heavy coat in the heat of summer?

2)  Why would he run from police if he's done nothing wrong?


----------



## MarkLondres

garryknight said:
			
		

> I wonder if the feelings are any more mixed now it's common knowledge that the guy who was shot by police on Stockwell tube station was a Brazilian with no connection to the recent bombings. (Source: BBC)


 
Hi Garry, what do you mean by feeligns being mixed? 

Yesterday's events at Stockwell initially made me think, if i was on a train at Stockwell and three men (not dressed as policemen) chased a fourth man onto a train and shot him dead, then i wouldn´t for a moment think that the police had just killed a potential suicide bomber. I would think "that's stockwell for ya"

This may help to explain why he was running away from these people in the first place.

Really, it's grave


----------



## MarkLondres

modgirl said:
			
		

> In no way am I condoning the shooting of that innocent man, but there are a couple of haunting questions.
> 
> 
> 1) Why would he wear a heavy coat in the heat of summer?
> 
> 2) Why would he run from police if he's done nothing wrong?


 
Mod, my posting above, answers i think number 2, if someone chases you in Stockwell then you run. nuff said. perhaps he would have be inclined to stop if they were dressed as policemen, one can only intentionally run away from the law if you know that it's the law that is chasing you.

As for 1) its real warm in London at the moment, but it ain´t Rio, let alone Salvador. further to that, this guy was an electrician. Being in construction myself i know that sometimes, you can have a small job in london that doesn't warrant driving to or taking all your tools to. But... sometimes you have to wear the coat with the most pockets to do this. could be an explanation


----------



## garryknight

MarkLondres said:
			
		

> Hi Garry, what do you mean by feeligns being mixed?


I was referring to lsp's sentence that I'd quoted:


			
				lsp said:
			
		

> Obviously there are mixed feelings about it.


----------



## garryknight

modgirl said:
			
		

> 2)  Why would he run from police if he's done nothing wrong?


He may very well have done something wrong, but could it have been something for which the punishment is summary shooting without trial? 

[I admit that I am, to some extent, playing devil's advocate here as I don't know any more than I've read in the news report I quoted, but many people are asking this question.]


----------



## MarkLondres

Garry, off topic a bit, but do you suppose the word "intelligence" is being bandied around a bit liberally at the moment by our police spokespeople.

1) "We raided 4 houses in Leeds acting on intelligence" = We raided 4 houses in Leeds acting on a telephone call from a woman whose precious little bomber didn't come home tonight

2) We have cleared [30000 people from] the centre of Birmingham tonight acting upon intelligence received = We have cleared [30000 people from] the centre of Birmingham tonight acting upon a phone call received from someone who saw a bag on a bus.

3) We have identified the 4 suicide bombers based on intelligence = We have identified the 4 suicide bombers based on evidence found at the crime scene.

All the more pertinent today because the block of flats that the Brazillian was living in "was under surveillance" based on intelligence [an address foudn in one of the rucksacks...Evidence again]

Where are the spooks with the proper intelligence? We don't question what they do, they keep us safe, that's the deal isn't it? what about the guys at GCHQ that know everything? It strikes me that there is no intelligence. aside from the "intelligence" that they discover after the act. Given that on 7th July Europe's first suicide bombings took place, you would think they could get some "intelligence" from the investigations to prevent it nearly happening again two weeks later.

"intelligence schmintelligence" once people like me* start to think that i am being let down by the security services, then we have a confidence problem loomimg

*me being someone that doesnt generally pay much attention to not think too deeply about what the police and intelligence services are doing


----------



## garryknight

garryknight said:
			
		

> I don't know any more than I've read in the news report I quoted


OK, I've been doing a bit more reading. He was a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician leaving the house on his way to work, wearing a Puffa jacket (not a crime, despite what some might think) when a group of men dressed in plain clothes and carrying guns started chasing him. I haven't yet found out how much English, if any, he spoke.


----------



## garryknight

MarkLondres said:
			
		

> Garry, off topic a bit


Yes, and that's partly my fault for bringing up the subject of the shooting. The thread was originally about the expression of support for those affected by the bombings and, as usually happens, politics intervened.

To answer your question, intelligence analysis is based on a mixture of raw data (physical evidence, information from 3rd parties, prior knowledge) and informed guesswork. So I don't think it's so much that they're misusing the word "intelligence" as that they may not be using it intelligently.

You asked: "Where are the spooks with the proper intelligence?" I would assume that SO13, the Transport Police, Special Branch (possibly), MI5's JTAC (Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre), and MI6 are all involved in gathering and collating intelligence. And I've probably missed out a couple of agencies...


----------



## chica11

It seems to me that the poor people in London although trying to put on their game faces, maybe more anxious and nervous than they would like to admit.  If what happened there, happened where I live, then I would be extremely jittery.  The fact that the police shot this guy (who now apparently was the wrong guy or something related to that) in the back five times, means that they are very tense right now and one can understand why.  These terrorist acts really do bring terror to people.  Hopefully things will get better but it will take a long time.


----------



## Everness

I'm glad that the British police admit shooting the wrong man in the bomb hunt. However, I would have chosen other ways to convey the message.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," police said on Saturday.


----------



## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> Why would he run from police if he's done nothing wrong?



I'm sure that my black friends who live in Lower Roxbury and like to hang out in Dudley could answer that question.


----------



## MarkLondres

chica11 said:
			
		

> The fact that the police shot this guy (who now apparently was the wrong guy or something related to that) in the back five times, means that they are very tense right now and one can understand why.


 
You are absolutely right Chica11, the good 'ole metropolitan police wouldn't do anything so stupid as to kill an unarmed man unless there a real panic in the air.

Those Irish Terrorists [Scottish Handymen] can pose a great threat to the rest of us, likewise those Suicide bombers [Brazilian electricians]

M


----------



## Edwin

If these events continue, then the countries involved will become much more like police states.  After all if the Israelis are unable to stop suicide bombers with all the precautions they take, is it no wonder that it will be even more difficult in more open countries?  

I think it is a little unrealistic to expect intelligence services to be able to stop such things. Nowadays anyone who wishes can communicate via email using unbreakable cryptographic schemes (*PGP*  for example) .  GCHQ, NSA, el al, really don't have a prayer against halfway clever opponents.  Intelligence services only succeed when the bad guys slip up.


----------



## Everness

garryknight said:
			
		

> I haven't yet found out how much English, if any, he spoke.



I just hope that the cops don't bring up this argument to exculpate themselves. Of course it's easy to talk having the benefit of hindsight but you don't shoot someone 5 times because he doesn't understand the commands you are giving him in English. My concern is that, according to the news, the operation was conducted by an elite force. I'm sure there was some racial and behavioral profiling going on. But if proficiency in English is the real issue, this would become an extra incentive to learn Shakespeare's tongue...


----------



## Benjy

i am sure it is too. the whole thing is a big fat sorry mess. and really unfortunate. but the thing is, no matter what anyone says, however sorry we are it will never give that man his life back. that's a pretty bitter pill to swallow for us all. especially for his loved ones left behind. he shouldn't have run. he shouldn't have got one the tube. he shouldn't have been shot five times in the head either.

i am convinced that the police were trying to do the best thing, but like i said.. saying that doesnt resolve anything. this is never going to be put right. i just hope that noone else is going to get caught in the crossfire, but i know they will. that's what is really sad.



			
				Everness said:
			
		

> I just hope that the cops don't bring up this argument to exculpate themselves. Of course it's easy to talk having the benefit of hindsight but you don't shoot someone 5 times because he doesn't understand the commands you are giving him in English. My concern is that, according to the news, the operation was conducted by an elite force. I'm sure there was some racial and behavioral profiling going on. But if proficiency in English is the real issue, this would become an extra incentive to learn Shakespeare's tongue...


----------



## gilbert0

I would like to share this experience if it is ok. One day when i was driving together with my parents in the city suddently we heard 3 explosion. Suddently people are running ouside the department store. And we stoped to ask somebody what had happen? The person said a bomb exploded from the baggage counter just at the entrance of the department store. 3 department store was hit by bomb. It is not a suicide bomber but a planted bomb made by local terrorist here in our country. We call them Abu Sayaf which they claim they were connected to the Al-Qaeda doing their own version of terrorism to the Philippines. We drove home to watch the news. About 18 person died on that explosion. 
	Police had no idea on how to prevent it from happening again. The police ask for cooperation with the local citizen to help them about the problem. The police give seminars to people on how to be vigilant on those terrorist in planting a bomb in the city. The police come up with this advice.
	1. When ever you see package or bag unattended you must report to security guards or police near you.
	2. If you see unsupicious person carrying a package wich are not allowed inside the department store report to the security guards or police.
	3. Stay away from the item for about 50 feet far.	
	4. Do not touch the pakage or bag. Or go nearer. Wait for the bomb squad to arrive.
	These notes was posted in every wall at the city sidewalk. And at the bottom of those note the telephone number of the bomb squad and emergency hotline for us to call.
	Not more than a week those person responsible of the incident was arrested. A landlady of the dormitory reported to the police that she has this students occupants at the dorms are talking regarding the incident and laughing while watching the news. Police went to the dormitory and arrested those 4 students. The police found also the materials are being used by the student in making a bomb.  Because of that bomb threats was lessen in our city. 
	For me police must not shot that person unless he is convince that the person is carrying a bomb. If they only suspect the person they must arrest first not by shoting them right away even if he run. I beleive police are mandated to chase and arrest criminals if they run. And bring the arrested person to the precinct to depend his self in the court. I don't know if that policy apply in your police force. Pray for the souls of those victims and God punish those demons pawn.


----------



## onetwothreegood

Well... Gone are the days where you can choose what you want to wear. It's a shame really. Maybe i should put a coat on and catch public transport and see how many bullets are fired at me.

I think it's a shame. It has made me angry. From experience police know that suicide bombers detonate their bombs if the police are on to them. The police waited until he was in a crowded area to let him know he was there. In theory, the police endangered many lives, and then went on to murder someone.

The guy was running, as i would if a bunch of people in normal clothed pulled guns out and pointed them at my head... with all thethings that have been happening there, i would be super jumpy. when he was on the ground and looked around just in time to see the people closing in on him, before shooting him in the head 5 times (where civilians could get the death penalty in america for such a gruesome murder) must have been terrifying.

Alas though... he COULD have ended up killing a lot of people if he was a terrorist. 

My overall opinion is that while we don't want terrorists, we don't want to be killed when we walk down the street because we needed a bag to carry more things than he can hold or put something to cover our bodies with before we walk out the door.

I heard on BBC world that the plain clothed 'law enforcement' aren't actually allowed to use their weapons on an offensive? can anybody enlighten me on that?


----------



## Vanda

Everness said:
			
		

> I just hope that the cops don't bring up this argument to exculpate themselves. Of course it's easy to talk having the benefit of hindsight but you don't shoot someone 5 times because he doesn't understand the commands you are giving him in English. My concern is that, according to the news, the operation was conducted by an elite force. I'm sure there was some racial and behavioral profiling going on. But if proficiency in English is the real issue, this would become an extra incentive to learn Shakespeare's tongue...


Yesterday I first knew of the Brazilian guy by this thread. 5 minutes later I saw the news on local television. Some facts , I don't know if they were brought to light, are: the Brazilian guy had a good command in English. He had been living in London for 5 years and , also, he was legal. He's from a nice and simple family in the countryside (my state by the way) , had been here 3 months ago and had nothing to hide.
We have to remember that the policemen were in plain clothes. Would anyone obey the commands from some armed men down a subway station? For me, it looks like he was in his/our country where we have these news every single day: police shoot innocent people in streets, favelas... Well we have such a huge social problem, but I have never expected that from the so famous british police. 
Yes , I understand the terrorism fear and restrains about it, yes , we all felt sad about that attack some weeks ago,also we feel sorry for all innocent lives paying mainly by their governments misdoings, and we feel sorry for all lives that probably will be lost in this endless politic war, but in this specific case I think it's like those western movies:
Shoot first, ask questions later.


----------



## MarkLondres

Everness said:
			
		

> But if proficiency in English is the real issue, this would become an extra incentive to learn Shakespeare's tongue...


 
Police! (english) = Polícias! (portuguese)

I would fancy my chances of understanding what that meant if i was being chased along Rio High Street by three men brandishing guns.


----------



## Everness

If you are or look like an Arab and you live in the West, please think about this.

1. Backpacks. Yes, I know that they are so practical to carry all your stuff to work or school. However, I'd recommend you stop using them and find some other way of transporting your things. Otherwise, you'll soon find yourself travelling alone in a car during peak hour because no one would be willing to sit next to you. Ah, boxes aren't a good alternative...  

2. Jogging. Yes, I know it's fun to jog in the street but I think it's time you become a member of a gym. However, if you decide to jog the old-fashioned way, stay away from train and bus stops. Ah, if 20 guys in plainclothes are chasing you and yelling at you, don't assume that they are muggers after your wallet. Just stop and listen to what they have to say. They might end up being a bunch of drunk hooligans upset because their team lost. If that were the case, they will surely rob you and beat you up. But if you are lucky enough, they might not unload five shots into you.   

3. Clothing. No thick coats! Period. No baggy clothing even if they are trendy. Got it? Wait, but autumn and winter are around the corner! Well, you'll have to choose between the lesser of two evils: catching a cold or ending up with 5 holes in your skull. It's your call. 

4. Language. I know that you are proud of being bicultural and bilingual but I think it's time to polish your English. Moreover, drop your foreign accent, after all, how many years have you been living in the West? You don't need to follow Jacko's steps and bleach your skin, but at least give us some evidence that you are on our side so we don't target you unfairly.


----------



## Everness

"This is a tragedy," Blair said Sunday of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets." 

He also defended the shoot-to-kill policy, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk. 

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot-to-kill policy," he said. *"It's only a shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy."* 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-24-london-shooting_x.htm

On behalf of all minority groups, I want to thank you Mr. Blair. Your clarification has put to rest all our concerns. Tomorrow we'll be able to walk the streets without fear of being executed.


----------



## modgirl

Everness said:
			
		

> Otherwise, you'll soon find yourself travelling alone in a car during peak hour because no one would be willing to sit next to you.


 
And this is bad -- how?! Being able to sit down on the tube in London during peak hours is a luxury in itself! 




> Yes, I know it's fun to jog in the street but I think it's time you become a member of a gym. However, if you decide to jog the old-fashioned way, stay away from train and bus stops.


 
It's simple: wear form-fitting shorts and a t-shirt!


----------



## Everness

modgirl said:
			
		

> And this is bad -- how?! Being able to sit down on the tube in London during peak hours is a luxury in itself!
> 
> 
> 
> It's simple: wear form-fitting shorts and a t-shirt!



* You have a good point. I clearly overlooked the advantages of living in a big Western city, being an Arab or looking like one, and carrying a backpack during peak hours. 

** Another good point. Just make sure that you don't have the face of Saddam printed on your T-shirt. 

Ah, and always wear a reinforced helmet. Just in case...


----------



## MarkLondres

Everness said:
			
		

> "This is a tragedy," Blair said Sunday of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."
> 
> He also defended the shoot-to-kill policy, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.
> 
> "I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot-to-kill policy," he said. *"It's only a shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy."*
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-24-london-shooting_x.htm
> 
> On behalf of all minority groups, I want to thank you Mr. Blair. Your clarification has put to rest all our concerns. Tomorrow we'll be able to walk the streets without fear of being executed.


 
Everness,

It may be worth pointing out to readers of the above that don't trouble themselves to visit the link that you provide that in this instance "Blair" refers to Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and not President [Tony] Blair, who obviously wouldn´t do anything so cheap as to apologise or accept responsibility for anything.

M


----------



## Helicopta

Before we accuse the police of targeting anyone ‘a bit foreign looking’ for summary execution. Should we not put things into context?
London has been attacked both successfully and unsuccessfully in the space of a few weeks by people who look no different from thousands of other people using the city’s transportation system, day in, day out. Unfortunately, they don’t play by the rules and wear the ‘Caution! Suicide bomber!’ t-shirts we’d like them to.
Of course there are questions that need to be aswered, such as “Did these plain clothed officers do enough to identify themselves as being policemen?” but until we get the answers, it is unfair for us to judge the actions of these men.
As for shoot-to-kill policies, can we really argue with the logic that states if they don’t, they run the risk of detonating a bomb or giving the bombers time to detonate it themselves? In no way do I want to diminish the tragedy and seriousness of this poor man’s untimely death but I can at least understand that it is an extraordinarily difficult job that the police are trying to do.


----------



## cirrus

I agree. If the police were to go for a blanket shoot to kill "foreign looking people" the place would be waist deep in bodies. London is arguably the most diverse city in Europe. Nearly half of Londoners come from outside Europe. In a mile radius of where I live over a hundred languages are spoken. 

In terms of how difficult the task facing the police consider this:

We already know how gruesome bombs are in London's deep tubes. The DNA of victims is still being scraped off the wall on the Piccadilly Line.
The people who tried to set off another wave of attacks not twenty four hours before the shooting are still out there.
If they hadn't shot the man and he had set off a bomb it could have killed and injured the police and many more innocent people who also happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


----------



## Whisky con ron

cirrus said:
			
		

> If they hadn't shot the man and he had set off a bomb it could have killed and injured the police and many more innocent people who also happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.


 
Sorry, but that argument is nonsense.  If that is true, we all should be in jail because we _could_ potentially commit a crime.....


----------



## Everness

cirrus said:
			
		

> I agree. If the police were to go for a blanket shoot to kill "foreign looking people" the place would be waist deep in bodies.



Mr. Blair: "I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot-to-kill policy," he said. "It's only a shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy." 

I just hope that the killing of this poor bastard is related to a sensible "shoot-to-kill" policy gone awry and not to this new and ominous "shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect" policy. Otherwise, your above statement could have prophetic dimensions...


----------



## Everness

Helicopta said:
			
		

> Before we accuse the police of targeting anyone ‘a bit foreign looking’ for summary execution. Should we not put things into context?



I agree. Here's more conext. Please read the whole article. I just highlighted a couple of paragraphs. 

_There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr de Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am, the police must have realised from the photographs they carried that he was not one of the four bombers. 

Even so, they decided that he was "a likely candidate" to follow because of his demeanour and colour, so one group set off on foot after him. _ 



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16049700%5E2703,00.html


----------



## cirrus

Everness said:
			
		

> I just hope that the killing of this poor bastard is related to a sensible "shoot-to-kill" policy gone awry and not to this new and ominous "shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect" policy. Otherwise, your above statement could have prophetic dimensions...


 
Even with the Metropolitan police's less than shining example of race relations - suss laws and disproportionate amounts of stopping black men being some that come to mind, I don't think this could happen.  London has literally millions of black and Asian people.


----------



## Everness

cirrus said:
			
		

> Even with the Metropolitan police's less than shining example of race relations - suss laws and disproportionate amounts of stopping black men being some that come to mind, I don't think this could happen.  London has literally millions of black and Asian people.



Just keep in mind that W. invaded Iraq and killed thousands of civilians in order to keep America _*safe*._ 

El fin justifica los medios... 

¿Cuándo fue la última vez que derramé una lágrima por estas víctimas? No soy portavoz del pueblo estadounidense pero, a título personal, confieso que nunca lloré a ninguno de estos muertos; sólo a los míos.

Cuando lo único que nos preocupa es salvar nuestro propio pellejo, lo que le ocurre a los demás tiene, a lo sumo, valor anecdótico. El miedo nos hace mucho más egoístas, condición que define al ser humano.

Por lo menos así lo veo yo...


----------



## MarkLondres

Everness said:
			
		

> ¿Cuándo fue la última vez que derramé una lágrima por estas víctimas? No soy portavoz del pueblo estadounidense pero, a título personal, confieso que nunca lloré a ninguno de estos muertos; sólo a los míos.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> igualmente, dos días despues de los atentados en Londres , el gobierno Britanico se quejó al gobierno EE.UU, "¿a sus soldados en Inglaterra, por que ustedes se han avisado que no pueden entrar el M25?"
> 
> y dos días despues de los atentados en egipto, nuestra querida BBC nos trae estas noticias, me parece que lo mas importante es nuestras turistas aun pueden disfrutar sus vaccaciones.
> 
> M


----------



## Helicopta

Everness said:
			
		

> I agree. Here's more conext. Please read the whole article. I just highlighted a couple of paragraphs.
> 
> _There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr de Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am, the police must have realised from the photographs they carried that he was not one of the four bombers. _
> 
> _Even so, they decided that he was "a likely candidate" to follow because of his demeanour and colour, so one group set off on foot after him. _
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16049700%255E2703,00.html


The context to which I was referring was the desperate situation that the police now find themselves in. Trying to track down the would-be bombers and prevent further attacks. If you are referring purely to the immediate circumstances surrounding the shooting then you're right, the article does provide some useful context.

It states that Mr de Menezes emerged from an address suspected of harbouring one of the bombers. While this obviously doesn’t make him a terrorist, in the circumstances it would certainly make him a suspect until it could be proven otherwise. He may not have been one of the men in the photos but that wouldn't have ruled him out of being an associate of theirs.

It states that he was wearing an unusually large jacket for such a warm day. Tenuous to say the least, but enough to arouse concern in anyone searching for terrorists who may be concealing explosives about their person.

It states that when challenged (though the exact nature of the challenge is disputed), he ran off into the tube station. In doing so, however unwittingly, he behaved in exactly the way they would have expected a terrorist to behave.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post and that which I will attempt to make again is that the exact facts surrounding the shooting have yet to be made clear. Until they are, I feel it is too early to call into question the judgement and consequent actions of the policemen involved. If, as the article eludes, proper and adequate identification was not given to Mr de Menezes that would have enabled him to realise that the armed men surrounding him were policemen, then this was a monumental blunder for which the police must be held accountable.

One thing that is evidently clear is that there were several other factors besides his ethnicity that led to the decision to shoot him. A decision, lest we forget, that was made with the lives of innocent train passengers (presumably, people of various races, faiths and colours) as the primary concern.


----------



## Everness

Helicopta said:
			
		

> The point I was trying to make in my earlier post and that which I will attempt to make again is that the exact facts surrounding the shooting have yet to be made clear. Until they are, I feel it is too early to call into question the judgement and consequent actions of the policemen involved.



I'll just quote a Northeastern Intelligence Network report.

_The man killed in London's Underground by Police, originally Linked DIRECTLY to the bombings that have plagued London, has now been declared NOT linked to these bombings in any way.

...So which is it?_

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/

Even these guys are frustrated with Mr. Blair! 

Iain, I respect you but you are being extremely naive about the competence and commitment of the police to get to the bottom of this. Cops are good at one thing: covering each others' asses. I wouldn't trust a single word that comes out of their mouths. This reminds me of the way Democrats and Republicans got together and put together a commission to investigate 9/11. Just ask the relatives of the people who died in New York what they think about the 9/11 Commission. The mandate of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair and of the 9/11 Commission is the same: give them something but don't get to the bottom of anything.

I'm so glad that the Brazilian community is taking to the streets demanding a full explanation and punishment for the individuals or officers responsible. Unfortunately they will get neither. But at least they will be honoring the beautiful life and reflecting on the nonsensical death of this 27-year-old electrician.


----------



## MarkLondres

I read your link, then i read this one too, 

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/lauramansfield.asp

*1.    Suspect is wearing heavy winter coat that appears to be padded. 
      (It is mid-July in London.  Temperatures in London are in the 70’s today.)
2.    Suspect is confronted by law enforcement and told to stop.
3.    Suspect runs*

I don't travel much, could somebody please tell me what month it is in USA at the moment.

M


----------



## Everness

MarkLondres said:
			
		

> I don't travel much, could somebody please tell me what month it is in USA at the moment.
> 
> M



Es julio ¡y me estoy cagando de calor! Let's address an interesting topic you brought up.

*1. Suspect is wearing heavy winter coat that appears to be padded.*

Read this interesting article and pay attention to one of the symptoms of psychosis related to clothing in patients with developmental disabilities.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p011251.html

If cops are going to start shooting at people wearing multiple layers of clothing, this will definitely reduce the costs of providing services to people with severe psychiatric conditions. 

I think we'll have to give our psychiatric patients a new piece of advice: Stay away from T stops....


----------



## beatrizg

I hope some of you would find this article interesting.  It was written before the shooting of the Brazilian man. 

http://semana2.terra.com.co/opencms...o.html?id=88642

(It's in Spanish. Sorry if some of you cannot read it.)


----------



## Everness

I tried to open it to no avail. Let's try with this link. If it doesn't open, I'll conclude that some counterintelligence operative is screwing things up. 

http://semana2.terra.com.co/opencms/opencms/Semana/articulo.html?id=88642


----------



## cirrus

beatrizg said:
			
		

> I hope some of you would find this article interesting. It was written before the shooting of the Brazilian man.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> You are right it is an interesting link, not least because I didn't know Semana was on the net. I think it is bit padded out with cliches though, throwing in references to Sherlock Holmes as though this was a measure of the efficacy of the police seems a tad weak too.
> 
> The issue about IRA people being fitted up is as much a failure of the court system as the police. When the hunt is on for people to blame it is far easier to string innocent people high and not ask questions. It is also something where ironically jury trials have been show to make the problem worse rather than better.


----------



## Everness

This was published in today's Boston Globe.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu...s_commuters_a_serious_staring_contest?mode=PF

Something similar happened in the States following 9/11, especially if you flew. I remember what happened to a friend of mine. Although his folks are from India, he was born in the US and he is as American as apple pie. He got on a plane in La Guardia, sat down, opened his copy of the Wall Street Journal --he has a Ph.D., has sold his soul to Corporate America, and makes too much money-- but the plane didn't move. Ten minutes later, the pilot came to his seat and asked him to get off the plane. Why? He made him feel uncomfortable!


----------



## Everness

Now this is an interesting development on the death of the Brazilian...

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...739199_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-BRITAIN-DC.XML

I can only imagine London's Metropolitan police commissioner Ian Blair's face turning red while talking to one of his subordinates on the leaking of the infamous document: 

*"Didn't I tell you to lock the bloody file cabinet, you useless piece of crap??!!"*


----------



## garryknight

Everness said:
			
		

> Now this is an interesting development on the death of the Brazilian...


Yes, here are some more details.


----------



## astronauta

Nothing is really what we thought it was....

At least we are getting to the truth, in some other countries, this file would have been closed or deemed  unresolved.


----------



## Everness

astronauta vegetariana said:
			
		

> Nothing is really what we thought it was....
> 
> At least we are getting to the truth, in some other countries, this file would have been closed or deemed  unresolved.



Was the leaked document related to the investigation by officers from the Metropolitan Police Directorate of Professional Standards or from the Independent Police Complaints Commission? If that were the case, at least it would show that they were really  investigating the case. 

However, and if it were true that they were getting to the bottom of this, would the police have shared the final results of the investigation with the public? 

I seriously doubt it. I'm sorry but I think that if someone hadn't leaked the documents, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair would have put a lid the size of Texas (with Bush's ranch and Sheehan's camp included) on this investigation. 

I continue to believe that what cops do best is to cover each other's asses...


----------



## astronauta

I agree with your last post Everness.


----------



## Everness

Well, it seems that this particular news doesn't capture our attention or imagination. Scotland Yard hasn't yet denied the veracity of this leaked secret report. They have declined to comment on the report until the Independent Police Complaints Commission completes a full investigation. How convenient... I wonder how many decades it will take them to complete the probe. 

But no one yet has pointed out the obvious. 

First, if they didn't know what had really happened and the events needed to be thoroughly investigated, why did Sir Blair just give one version  of the events that, by the way, is turning to be inaccurate and biased? Why didn't he say, "Well, we don't know what actually happened that day. There are conflicting versions. We don't know if he was wearing winter clothes or a swimming suit. Therefore, I'm not going to make any comments until we fully investigate the facts." No, first he clearly implied that this poor bastard was a terrorist and then he stated that it was a case of mistaken identity. But there was no reference to the kind of unbelievably gross mistakes that the cops made and that are documented in this new report. 

Second, if the leaked document reflect what really happened that day, Scotland Yard Commissioner Sir Ian Blair has been lying to all Britons, and to the rest of the world may I add, since day 1. There are two possibilities. Or his subordinates kept him in the dark making him look as a fool or an inept leader or he clearly knew what had happened yet decided to buy some time or pray that the whole thing went away. 

I know that Brazilians are, after all, "sudacas" and we shouldn't be making such a fuss about the death of one of them. Let's not forget that the Home Office clarified that the visa of Jean Charles de Menezes had expired two years before he was shot by police. (I assume that the British government meant that the 7 shots in Menezes' head weren't completely wasted.) If a white affluent guy had died, well, things would have been managed quite differently... trust me. The family of Jean Charles are slowly finding out what really happened that day. I'm sure they knew that he wasn't a terrorist or a moron. Now the facts are supporting their perceptions. In order to save face or their jobs, Scotland Yard lied compounding the suffering of Jean Charles' friends and families. 

It seems that Americans and Britons share a trait: We don't mind if our leaders lie to us through their teeth.


----------



## Everness

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/21/world/printable789031.shtml

I must say that my opinion of Sir Ian Blair, London's Metropolitan Police Commissioner, is changing. I'm getting a kick out of his statements. 

First memorable quote: _"I have told them 'This is not your (anti-terror investigators) problem"' Blair reportedly said. "For myself, it's a job I have to do. And I am not going to be distracted from the main job which is finding the terrorists."_

Comment: So it's not the cops' problem but it isn't Sir Blair's problem either. So whose problem is this? ¡Ah, estos policías con alma de políticos!

Second memorable quote: _"Somebody came in at 10:30 (Saturday) and said the equivalent of 'Houston we have a problem,"' Blair was quoted as saying. _ 

Comment: That's why I am an anglophile. I just love British dry sense of humour! The poor Brazilian bastard is dead but the cops' sense of humor is alive. Shouldn't we all learn to take our mistakes lightly? Any more astronaut jokes you care to share with us, Sir Blair? 

Third memorable quote: _"He didn't use those words but he said: 'We have some difficulty here, there is a lack of connection,"' Blair said. "I thought, 'that's dreadful, what are we going to do about that?"' _ 

Comment: This followed the astronaut joke. So Sir Blair, why don't you make up our mind? Did your subordinate use or didn't use astronaut humour? Or could it be that you suddenly realized that you spoke without thinking and that you are having second thoughts about the appropriateness of your quip? 

Fourth memorable quote: _"There has been a review. The police have reviewed the strategy and we have made one or two small changes, but the operation remains essentially the same," a police spokeswoman said Saturday. _ 

Comment: Now this statement must be absolutely reassuring if you are a minority and look like an Arab! If you live in London, I would recommend that you work from home and you get your groceries delivered to your home. If for any emergency you have to leave home, just make sure you don't run, jog, use baggy clothes, carry a backpack, etc. etc. Ah, and most importantly, just pray that the "one or two small changes" the police have made is that they will not slaughter innocent people who want to get on a train or a bus...


----------



## Jonegy

My first comment on this topic having spent the last few weeks absolutely seething.

The 'Sir Ian Blair Quote'  that smacked me straight between the eyes came shortly after the the discovery of the 'mistake'..........

       " ...... we must also consider the feelings for the officer who fired the the shots.....(or words to that effect)......   these armed officers have all volunteered to put themselves in these dangerous positions"

   "VOLUNTEERS"  ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 

This moron in charge of our capitols police force is actually telling us that every 'wanabe'  -  Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, Jack Nicholson,  John Wayne etc, etc,etc,....... is handed a gun and shown how to shoot it !!!

Things suddenly became clear  -  it was like walking into daylight for the first time.

Dangerous positions........     I wonder :-

the present case is too ridiculous to even consider

a week or so after this case the young man in Leeds going into a diabetic fit on a bus,  hit with a Tazer (Taser ??  -  well one of those electric cattle prods). "Acting suspiciously" I think the quote was.  -  and he was white !!

what calibre do wrapped up table legs come in these days ??  and can they really be fired from inside their packaging ??

if you know a girl whose boyfriend may have dodgy dealing - do not accompany her in the street 

where does a  man hide a gun when he's stark naked and asleep in bed.....


The first case I can actually remember for it's stupidity was the young guy that got shot for driving the wrong coloured Mini "similar to one used in a recent robbery"  I think the excuse was.

The most telling thing about all these killings is that to the best of my knowledge,  no one has been actually prosecuted or sacked. I seem to remember a case where the officers were sent for " re-training ".....
Yep  -  like they try to re-train paedophiles,  psychos  etc.

Protest as much as you like - they won't take any notice.

What a sympathetic way he has with words  " well actually he was only 1 among 54 deaths "

What a lovely democracy ( elected Dictatorship) we do live in.


----------



## Everness

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article307445.ece

According to this article, it was claimed yesterday that CCTV tapes depicting Menezes' last moments were handed out to police but returned blank. 

Mmmmmmmm... Well, we all know that shit happens. Technology is inherently unreliable.

So the reporter contacted Tube Lines, the company which runs Stockwell station. They said they had not been aware of any faults on its cameras on 22 July, the day Mr. Menezes' was shot 8 times. 

So their cameras were fully operational. But wait... things get more interesting!

_The Mail on Sunday quoted a senior transport union official as saying: " After the incident, the police took the tapes away. When they brought them back three or four days later, they said, 'These are no good to us. They're blank.'" _ 

If this were true, what do you call it? Let me help you... I'll give you the definition and you need to come up with the word. Ready? 

"An effort or strategy of concealment, especially a planned effort to prevent something potentially scandalous from becoming public."


----------

