# Accent vs dialect



## Silver

Hi,

My teacher, who teaches in New Oriental School, told us that "accent" can mean "dialect", and here is one example:

*Are you learning Sichuan dialect?

*For him, could mean:

*Are you learning Sichuan accent?

*I looked up the word in our dictionary and found nothing about dialect.

But if I express these two thoughts to you, would they mean the same to you?

Thanks a lot


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## sdgraham

Your teacher, who teaches at the New Oriental School , is rather off base.

Since I was raised in Chicago and Los Angeles, I have a distinctly different accent from my friends raised in Boston and Texas, but we speak the same English.

People who speak different dialects speak differently of course, but the inverse is not invariably true.


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## suzi br

In general an accent is about the sounds people use, how we can tell a Scot from a Londoner, for example in their use of vowel sounds, mainly.

Dialect is specifically about variation in grammar and lexis. 

Accent does not mean dialect.  A particular regional accent can be associated with a specific regional dialect.


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## sound shift

"Accent" just means pronunciation.
"Dialect" is more than that. It means grammar and vocabulary too.


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## natkretep

Accent is to do with pronunciation (including stress and intonation). Dialect is to do with pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary and orthography.

Mandarin, Sichuanese, Shanghainese and Cantonese have different pronunciations, different constructions, different vocabulary and some different characters. They are different dialects. Some linguists might prefer to say that they are different languages.

EDIT
Ah, a succession of cross-postings!


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## Alxmrphi

> They are different dialects. Some linguists might prefer to say that they are different languages.


They certainly do indeed  It's thee classic example in all introductions to the language/dialect debate, always starting with the claims that Scandinavia can be viewed as a dialect-area, while the "dialects" of China can easily be looked upon as whole separate independent languages. But yeah, I agree with everything that has been said so far, you will often find terms like "dialect pronunciation", which show again (as natkretep said) that pronunciation/accent comes under a heading of "dialect", which naturally includes a lot more areas to be considered.

Different dialects often naturally have different pronunciations, but different pronunciations don't necessarily mean different dialects. For example if you look at Welsh English and Scottish English, they are basically the RP dialect with different pronunciations(accents), not different dialects at all (and no, I'm not talking about Scots here, that's separate).


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## Copperknickers

Well no, Scottish and Welsh English are still dialects. An accent would be a 'Welsh accent' and a 'Scottish accent'.


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## PaulQ

Silverobama said:


> Hi,
> 
> My teacher, who teaches in New Oriental School, told us that "accent" can mean "dialect", and here is one example:
> 
> *Are you learning Sichuan dialect?
> *For him, could mean:
> *Are you learning Sichuan accent?
> 
> *But if I express these two thoughts to you, would they mean the same to you?


No. Dialect has lots of words that differ from the standard language; an accent is the way you pronounce words in general.


> I looked up the word in our dictionary and found nothing about dialect.


Then you need a new dictionary.  Try here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dialect and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accent

It is likely that your question will start a huge discussion on dialect and accent; << Off topic. >>


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## MuttQuad

suzi br said:


> In general an accent is about the sounds people use, how we can tell a Scot from a Londoner, for example in their use of vowel sounds, mainly.
> 
> Dialect is specifically about variation in grammar and lexis.
> 
> Accent does not mean dialect.  A particular regional accent can be associated with a specific regional dialect.



That pretty well describes the difference. It is, however, interesting to note that while various versions, i.e. dialects, of Chinese such as Mandarin and Cantonese are mutually unintelligible in their spoken forms, the written forms are pretty well universally understood by speakers of any of the main dialects (as long as the reader understands whichever form -- traditional or simplified -- of the character set is being used).


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## MrKh

Added to previous thread. 
Cagey, moderator 

I'm confused about the difference between accent and dialect, what does both of them mean individually, and when do we call each of them accent and the other dialect, and a fluent non-native speaker should have an accent? How so without living in that place?


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## entangledbank

An accent is a way of pronouncing words. A person can have a foreign accent if they're not native, or a regional accent if they are. A dialect is a variety of language that differs from other varieties in accent _and_ grammar _and_ vocabulary.


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## Konstantinos

A dialect is a set of accents.

Imagine a person from Egypt who speaks Egyptian Arabic (Masri). His native language is Egyptian Arabic. So he natively speaks the Egyptian *dialect* of Arabic.

Imagine the same person that he tries to speak Morrocan Arabic. He has studied Morrocan Arabic himself, but he hasn't fully mastered it. So he speaks the Morrocan *dialect* but with Egyptian *accent*.

Someone speaks Egyptian dialect with Egyptian accent: His native language is Egyptian Arabic and he speaks Egyptian Arabic.

Someone speaks Egyptian dialect with Moroccan accent: His native language is Moroccan Arabic but he tries to speak the Egyptian dialect.

Someone speaks Moroccan dialect with Egyptian accent: His native language is Egyptian Arabic but he tries to speak the Moroccan dialect.

Someone speaks Moroccan dialect with Moroccan accent: His native language is Moroccan Arabic and he speaks Moroccan Arabic.


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## MrKh

I want to learn the American accent not the British one, or the American dialect not the British one?


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## Konstantinos

MrKh said:


> I want to learn the American accent not the British one, or the American dialect not the British one?


You will learn the American dialect with an Arabic accent. After living 20 years in the USA, you will be able to speak the American dialect with an American accent.


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## Hermione Golightly

There are a number of accents and dialects in all English speaking countries, so we talk about _an _accent or a dialect.  There are fewer dialects these days; although many people use regional vocabulary they will rarely adopt the grammar variations. Focus on speaking clearly.


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## Wordy McWordface

MrKh said:


> I want to learn the American accent not the British one, or the American dialect not the British one?


Neither of those!

_Accent_ isn't right because you want to do more than simply acquire American-style pronunciation and intonation; you also want to learn American vocabulary rather than British vocabulary, and American grammar rather than British grammar. However, _dialect _is not the right word here, either, as _dialect_ suggests, for example, the way that old farmers in rural backwaters speak (!) 
You obviously want to learn standard American English - not a dialect.

But there is a very simple solution. If you need to specify your preference for learning the form of English used in the USA, just say this:

*I want to learn American English rather than British English.*

This explains exactly what you want to say.  There is no need to use either _dialect _or _accent_ to explain your preference.


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## elroy

Wordy McWordface said:


> However, _dialect _is not the right word here, either, as _dialect_ suggests, for example, the way that old farmers in rural backwaters speak (!)
> You obviously want to learn standard American English - not a dialect.


In linguistics, “dialect” is a neutral word, and Standard American English is a dialect.


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## dojibear

"Accent" refers to the sounds made, not variations in vocabulary and grammar in different regions ("dialects").

Often "accent" means "foreign accent" -- the sounds show the speaker isn't a native speaker.

_He spoke English fluently, but he had an accent. It sounded like a Russian accent. _


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## Keith Bradford

When I was a professional translator, I would refuse to translate from French into American English because it is not my native *dialect*.  I might translate a French sentence about a man who was happy about his new accommodation as "He was mad about his town centre flat".  That is British dialect.  But an American might not understand, and might think I was talking about a burst tyre.  In the *American dialect* it would be "He was wild about his city center apartment".  There are four differences in vocabulary, usage and spelling.

But all of that is in written English.  The spoken *accent *isn't visible.  If I had to interpret in spoken English there would also be differences.  The written word _letter _is pronounced as /'lɛtə/ in England and /'lɛdəʳ/ in the USA.


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## dojibear

MuttQuad said:


> It is, however, interesting to note that while various versions, i.e. dialects, of Chinese such as Mandarin and Cantonese are mutually unintelligible in their spoken forms, the written forms are pretty well universally understood by speakers of any of the main dialects (as long as the reader understands whichever form -- traditional or simplified -- of the character set is being used).


This common myth is incorrect. Written Mandarin and Cantonese are as different as written French and Spanish. The languages use different words and have different grammar. The same is true of the other 6 major Chinese "dialects". They are different languages (in western terminology), both in speech and in writing.

Each one is relatively small (40 to 80 million speakers) except Mandarin, which has 900 million native speakers. Mandarin itself has dialects, but they are mostly pronunciation differences and local terms, like AmE has. There is a "standard Mandarin", just like there is a "standard American English".

Maybe the myth is caused by this: Putonghua (which matches one dialect of Mandarin) is the official language of China, and is used in schools and government documents everywhere. As a result, many people (whose native language isn't Mandarin) can speak Mandarin, or at least read it.


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## natkretep

Part of the problem of the term 'dialect' is that it is understood differently by different people. As Elroy has said, within linguistics it is a neutral term, and you can replace it with 'variety'. Elsewhere, it might refer to non-standard varieties, or to traditional historical varieties.


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## Konstantinos

dojibear said:


> This common myth is incorrect. Written Mandarin and Cantonese are as different as written French and Spanish.



I think written Mandarin and Cantonese are a little more different like French and English.

I think in written form, French and Spanish could be considered "two dialects".


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## Keith Bradford

Konstantinos said:


> I think in written form, French and Spanish could be considered "two dialects".


Like Greek and Turkish, you mean?  I think not.


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## Konstantinos

Keith Bradford said:


> Like Greek and Turkish, you mean?  I think not.


The genetic proximity between French and Spanish is 37.1, while Greek and Turkish 93.6

Compare languages - online genetic proximity calculator


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## MrKh

How about differences between states within the same country, Chicago accent and Los Angeles accent, or Chicago dialect and Los Angeles dialect?


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## Konstantinos

MrKh said:


> How about differences between states within the same country, Chicago accent and Los Angeles accent, or Chicago dialect and Los Angeles dialect?


They are called dialects.

The average British English with the average American English have less than 4 genetic proximity, while the LA English and Chicago English have less than 1 genetic proximity.

3.4 is the genetic proximity of Russian and Ukrainian, while the Spanish - Portuguese is at 19.4.


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## sdgraham

MrKh said:


> How about differences between states within the same country, Chicago accent and Los Angeles accent, or Chicago dialect and Los Angeles dialect?





Konstantinos said:


> They are called dialects.


Bad choice, I'm afraid.  
I was born and spent the first 15 years of my life in Chicago and the next 10 in Los Angeles. I would never call the the virtually imperceptible difference in speech "dialects."


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## Konstantinos

sdgraham said:


> Bad choice, I'm afraid.
> I was born and spent the first 15 years of my life in Chicago and the next 10 in Los Angeles. I would never call the the virtually imperceptible difference in speech "dialects."



I am afraid Wikipedia disagrees with you:

Inland Northern (American) English, also known in American linguistics as the Inland North or Great Lakes dialect, is an American English dialect spoken primarily by White Americans in a geographic band reaching from the major urban areas of Upstate New York westward along the Erie Canal and through much of the U.S. Great Lakes region.

Western American English (also known as Western U.S. English) is a variety of American English that largely unites the entire Western United States as a single dialect region, including the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and Wyoming.


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## Konstantinos

sdgraham said:


> Bad choice, I'm afraid.
> I was born and spent the first 15 years of my life in Chicago and the next 10 in Los Angeles. I would never call the the virtually imperceptible difference in speech "dialects."



And again about Spanish, don't tell me that in Chicago they use the same amount of Spanish words as the LA English.


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## Keith Bradford

On the elinguistics.net comparison scale, it seems that *dialects *are those languages separated by a genetic proximity of about 10 or less (e.g. English/Scots = 10.2; Urdu/Hindi = 4.3; Dutch/Afrikaans = 2.9).

However, it doesn't even offer to distinguish between Great Lakes dialect and Western American English, or (to name a comparison that I'm more familiar with) Brummie and British RP.  It doesn't even compare UK and US English.  And the question of *accent *doesn't enter into it since, I discover, the elinguistics calculations are made on the basis of consonants in the written languages.

I think we need more data.  Differences in *accent *can vary over a few miles.  I once travelled on the stopping train from Birmingham to Wolverhampton (about 20 km) and listening as my fellow-passengers got on and off I could recognise the differences in accent.  I felt "home" about 6km from where I was brought up.

But there is no way that I would claim that the languages spoken in Wolverhampton and Birmingham are different *dialects*.  They are both "Black Country", a region covering at least 30x30 km.  On that quick calculation, my *accent *covers 40 sq km, my *dialect *covers 1,000 sq km.

(Because of population densities and the inaccuracy of my ear, I do not claim that this observation is true of other parts of the world.)


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## Roxxxannne

@Konstantinos, could you please read comments 3,4, 5, and 11 above and let us know in what ways you agree or disagree wirh the definitions there?  I think we are using the terms 'accent' and 'dialect' differently.


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## PaulQ

M. F. Wakelin in his book "English Dialect" states: 


> A customary and useful distinction is made between dialect and accent. Quite simply, dialect refers to all the linguistic elements in one form of a language..while accent refers only to pronunciations. Accent is thus the phonetic or phonological aspect of dialect.


And that seems fair enough to me. Of course, as the quote from 1556 below makes clear, there is no definite line between a dialect and a language.

OED:



> *Dialect:
> 
> 2. A form or variety of a language which is peculiar to a specific region, esp. one which differs from the standard or literary form of the language in respect of vocabulary, pronunciation, idiom, etc.; (as a mass noun) provincial or rustic speech. *_*Also more generally: a particular language considered in terms of its relationship with the family of languages to which it belongs.*_
> 
> 1566   J. Rastell Treat.: Beware of M. Iewel i. iii. sig. Jviiiv   _Though the Tounge [=language] of Saxonie, Flanders, England and Scotland be one: yet because of a peculiar Property and Dialect whiche is in them, the Vulgar Saxons are not only Strangers to Englishe men, but allso to the Flemminges their neighbors._
> 
> a1935   W. Holtby South Riding (1936) i. i. 18   _She talked B.B.C. English to her employer..and Yorkshire dialect to old milkmen._
> 
> 1954   T. Maynard Long Road of Father Serra (1956) i. 2   _They have their own language, Mallorquin, even if this is no more than a dialect of Catalan._
> 
> 1978   N.Y. Times 3 Feb. 2   _He found speaking Swabian, the local dialect, probably helped in winning votes._
> 
> 2005   P. Burke Towards Social Hist. Early Mod. Dutch 20   _There does not seem to have been any standard, so the choice was between speaking French or Spanish and speaking dialect._





> *Accent
> 
> 7.a. A way of pronouncing a language that is distinctive to a country, area, social class, or individual.*
> 
> 1937   ‘G. Orwell’ Road to Wigan Pier x. 195   _There is the type who remains working-class—who..does not bother to change his working-class accent and habits, but who ‘improves his mind’_
> 
> 1960   ‘J. Winton’ We saw Sea (1963) ii. 29   _‘Man, man, that was endsville,’ the young man moaned in an American accent._
> 
> 1993   A. Higgins Lions of Grunewald xxviii. 177   _He's not from Bognor nor Dagenham, but from Dundrum. Listen to that broad Dublin accent._


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## dojibear

Konstantinos said:


> I am afraid Wikipedia disagrees with you:


Then wikipedia is wrong. After all, *anyone *can write a wikipedia article. There is no claim of "perfect correctness" in wikipedia articles. I have found mistakes in wikipedia articles (about relativity and solar nuclear fusion).



Konstantinos said:


> Inland Northern (American) English


Thanks for the longer quote -- it is very oversimplified.



Konstantinos said:


> And again about Spanish, don't tell me that in Chicago they use the same amount of Spanish words as the LA English.


In English? Yes, I will tell you that. I do tell you that.

There is no noticeable difference between the dialects of English spoken around San Francisco and Los Angeles. But SF has about 15% Spanish speakers (Chicago 13%), while LA has about 38%.

I live in between the two cities. I see and hear many Spanish speakers. On the bus, I hear Spanish conversations more often than I hear English conversations. But I don't hear any Spanish words in English. English speakers do not speak a hybrid language. There is no difference in English pronunciation and grammar between Chicago, LA, SF, Fresno.


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## elroy

Whether or not the English spoken in Chicago and the English spoken in Los Angeles are distinct enough to constitute separate varieties is a different question from what we should call them if we do decide they are different varieties.

The answer to the second question is easy: if they are separate varieties, they are definitely separate *dialects*, not separate accents.  Accent is only about pronunciation; "dialect" encompasses all linguistic aspects of a language variety. 

The first question is trickier.  There are undoubtedly clear differences between Chicago English and Los Angeles English.  Since these differences don't seem significant to the average speaker of American English, most do not think of the two as separate varieties.  Strictly speaking, they are, and in linguistics they would be called dialects.


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## MrKh

Does intonation differ from one state to another within the same country? because, for example, when one expresses exclamation, there is a rising tone in the last word, isn't that supposed to be the same in all dialects (rising tone when expressing exclamation), or intonation doesn't have to do with varieties of English?


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## Konstantinos

dojibear said:


> Then wikipedia is wrong. After all, *anyone *can write a wikipedia article. There is no claim of "perfect correctness" in wikipedia articles. I have found mistakes in wikipedia articles (about relativity and solar nuclear fusion).
> 
> 
> Thanks for the longer quote -- it is very oversimplified.
> 
> 
> In English? Yes, I will tell you that. I do tell you that.
> 
> There is no noticeable difference between the dialects of English spoken around San Francisco and Los Angeles. But SF has about 15% Spanish speakers (Chicago 13%), while LA has about 38%.
> 
> I live in between the two cities. I see and hear many Spanish speakers. On the bus, I hear Spanish conversations more often than I hear English conversations. But I don't hear any Spanish words in English. English speakers do not speak a hybrid language. There is no difference in English pronunciation and grammar between Chicago, LA, SF, Fresno.


So if someone hears pop in Chicago and soda in LA, they are different accents? Or is it possible to hear: "Your English is hella good" in Chicago? Because in San Francisco you hear the word hella.

And of course in my visit in LA, I heard (very often) something between English and Spanglish (100% English grammar with 10-15% Spanish words) even by whites.


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## Hermione Golightly

Intonation is a prominent feature of many British accents.


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## dojibear

Konstantinos said:


> So if someone hears pop in Chicago and soda in LA, they are different accents?


It is "soda" in New England. I've seen a map of the "pop/soda" difference in the US. It doesn't seem to match dialects.



Konstantinos said:


> Because in San Francisco you hear the word hella.


That is used in Boston too.



MrKh said:


> isn't that supposed to be the same in all dialects (rising tone when expressing exclamation)


I think that is true in all dialects. But some other tones may be different in different dialects of AE and BE.


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## dojibear

elroy said:


> The first question is trickier. There are undoubtedly clear differences between Chicago English and Los Angeles English. Since these differences don't seem significant to the average speaker of American English, most do not think of the two as separate varieties. Strictly speaking, they are, and in linguistics they would be called dialects.


That makes sense. The average US speaker is so used to hearing different dialects that he doesn't notice. But a linguist notices. A native speaker of another language (like @Konstantinos) might also notice.


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## Keith Bradford

This is a question of degree.  I'd like to suggest this addition to the elinguistics definition:

Between *0* and *1*:    *The same language.* Any apparent differences are due to accent rather than dialect.
Between *1* and *10*:    *Dialects of the same language*. Protolanguage (common “ancestor”) a few centuries at most.
Between *10* and *30*:    *Highly related languages*. Protolanguage (common “ancestor”) between several centuries and approx. 2000 years.
Between *30* and *50*:  *Related languages*. Protolanguage approx. between 2000 and 4000 years.
Between *50* and *70*:  *Remotely related languages*. Protolanguage approx. between 4000 and 6000 years.
Between *70* and *78*:  *Very remotely related languages*. Protolanguage approx. older than 6000 years - but high potential of *interference with chance ressemblance*.
Between *78* and *100*: *No recognizable relationship: *the few ressemlances measured are more likely to be due to chance than to common origin!
My addition is purely arbitrary, suggested in the spirit of moving the discussion forward.  But it fits my distinction between RP and Black country where there is a single variation on the elinguistics test:  *Four *in RP becomes *Fower *in BC.  That makes a difference of less than 1 point: the rest is accent.
____________________________________________________________

An alternative definition: "*A language is a dialect with an army and navy*" is a quip about the arbitrariness of the distinction between a dialect and a language. It points out the influence that social and political conditions can have over a community's perception of the status of a language or dialect. The facetious adage was popularized by sociolinguist and Yiddish scholar Max Weinreich, who heard it from a member of the audience at one of his lectures in the 1940s. Source: A language is a dialect with an army and navy - Wikipedia.


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## JulianStuart

Konstantinos said:


> So if someone hears *pop* in Chicago and *soda* in LA, they are different accents? Or is it possible to hear: "Your English is hella good" in Chicago? Because in San Francisco you hear the word hella.
> 
> And of course in my visit in LA, I heard (very often) something between English and Spanglish (100% English grammar with 10-15% Spanish words) even by whites.


Which words are used in different areas does not tell us about accents.  Please accept that (almost) everyone reserves the word "accent" to refer to ONLY PRONUNCIATION.  You seem to be the "odd one out" here.


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## Konstantinos

JulianStuart said:


> Which words are used in different areas does not tell us about accents.  Please accept that (almost) everyone reserves the word "accent" to refer to ONLY PRONUNCIATION.  You seem to be the "odd one out" here.


This post, at the point of accents was (friendly) ironic. The soda / pop is a case of distinguishing the Inland Northern American English dialect with the Western American English dialect. So I asked ironically whether they are just accents, because some American friends here believe that in the USA there is only one dialect of English.


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## sound shift

Keith Bradford said:


> On the elinguistics.net comparison scale, it seems that *dialects *are those languages separated by a genetic proximity of about 10 or less (e.g. English/Scots = 10.2; Urdu/Hindi = 4.3; Dutch/Afrikaans = 2.9).


I've had a quick look at that website. These values appear to be based on vocabulary only, with no account taken of underlying structure, so I don't believe they are a true measure of 'genetic proximity.'


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## Keith Bradford

sound shift said:


> I've had a quick look at that website. These values appear to be based on vocabulary only, with no account taken of underlying structure, so I don't believe they are a true measure of 'genetic proximity.'


That thought crossed my mind.  But I wonder if there are in fact cases of related languages which share a common structure but not much vocabulary?  Basque, for instance, has been said to share structures with some far eastern languages.  However, since this has never been proved, the question remains theoretical.


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