# invaso della piazza



## hinagiku

Cari amici del forum, qui ho un problema con la parola "invaso" in senso architettonico.
Il problema nasce dal fatto che anche in italiano mi è difficile capire l'espressione. Sto aspettando pareri da amici architetti, ma nel frattempo pongo la questione anche a voi.
Credo che forse si possa intendere come "capacità utilizzabile della piazza".

Context sentence: 
"i volumi dei due edifici occupano una fascia disposta parallelamente al viale, interrotta al centro dal grande invaso della piazza rettangolare"
Attempt:
'the volumes of the two buildings occupy a strip laying parallel to the boulevard, that is interrupted at its centre by the great reservoir of the rectangular square'
or maybe just
'... by the rectangular space of the square'

Does "usable capacity of the square" make any sense?
Is there any term used in architecture to express it??

Grazie e thank you!


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## BristolGirl

Hi Hinagiku - A suggestion on the way to finding the best solution would be the following :
".....parallel to the avenue/boulevard, interrupted by a rectangular plaza sprawling across the center."
I'm afraid 'rectangular square' sounds like a contradiction in terms.
Let's wait for the architects.


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## hinagiku

BristolGirl said:


> Hi Hinagiku - A suggestion on the way to finding the best solution would be the following :
> ".....parallel to the avenue/boulevard, interrupted by a rectangular plaza sprawling across the center."
> I'm afraid 'rectangular square' sounds like a contradiction in terms.
> You are right - getting too 'concentrated' on one aspect makes you 'deaf'  to other 'details'!
> Let's wait for the architects.



Anyway... by now I can add the suggestion an architect friend of mine gave me as for the Italian translation:
INVASO DELLA PIAZZA = superficie contenitiva, scavo, quasi "ricavo" dal tessuto edilizio.

By now I like your organization of the sentence and I will keep it, but I'll try to go closer to 'invaso'.

the rectangular dig??


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## joanvillafane

No, "dig" is too specific - Unless there is an archaeological dig going on in the piazza, it's not correct. 

How about "the enclosed space of the rectangular plaza."


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## Lorena1970

QUI traduce con "space"

"grande invaso della piazza" = "grande spazio della piazza" su questo non ho alcun dubbio!



hinagiku said:


> Context sentence:
> "i volumi dei due edifici occupano una fascia disposta parallelamente al viale, interrotta al centro dal grande invaso della piazza rettangolare"



My suggestion (which I am afraid needs to be improved...)
'the volumes of the two buildings lay along a  strip which is parallel to the boulevard, interrupted halfway by the  large space of the rectangular square'




BristolGirl said:


> I'm afraid 'rectangular square' sounds like a contradiction in terms.



You can say "the round square", "the rectangular  square", it depends onf the square shape, no...?


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## BristolGirl

Hi Lorena - we can keep it because it's in context - it just sounded like 'quadro rettangolare'!


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## Odysseus54

Si puo' sapere, per curiosita', di che viale stai parlando ?


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## Lorena1970

BristolGirl said:


> Hi Lorena - we can keep it because it's in context - it just sounded like 'quadro rettangolare'!



Avevo capito che avevi frainteso... è PIAZZA RETTANGOLARE.


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## BristolGirl

Non ho frainteso ho usato 'quadro' invece di 'quadrato' !!!
 - 'square' =  piazza 
- 'square' =  quadrato  
Quindi 'rectangular square' suonava come 'quadrato rettangolare' - io intendevo questo.
Era più elegante dire 'rectangular plaza/piazza'.


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## Lorena1970

As for in my knowledge, in architectural descriptions if you use "plaza" (I have almost never heard it in similar contexts, I must say) you mean a CERTAIN kind of square, sort of elegant place with shops, greenery et al. The same with "piazza". Wanting to refer to a "piazza" as a generic space (squared, rectangular, triangular, round .....) designed as a void between buildings, I have always heard "square".


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## joanvillafane

Odysseus asked an interesting question about where this piazza/square is located.  It's true that we use the word "square" but I also agree with BristolGirl that "rectangular square" just doesn't make sense on first reading.


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## Lorena1970

'the volumes of the two buildings lay along a   strip which is parallel to the boulevard, interrupted halfway *by the   large, rectangular space of the square'*

This maybe makes things much clear.


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## joanvillafane

*rectangular space of the square * Yay for Lorena! That's it!


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## BristolGirl

That's perfect !!!


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## Odysseus54

joanvillafane said:


> Odysseus asked an interesting question about where this piazza/square is located.  It's true that we use the word "square" but I also agree with BristolGirl that "rectangular square" just doesn't make sense on first reading.



But then, how d'y'all describe the shape of a square that is not square ?


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## Lorena1970

Odysseus54 said:


> But then, how d'y'all describe the shape of a square that is not square ?



That's what I suggested in my post #5


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## BristolGirl

But you gave the answer to that in Post # 12 describing a rectangular one  !!!
It depends on the context and the style of writing and you might find yourself naturally not attaching adjectives to describe it's shape.
A lot of squares are round or oblong. I think the one in Siena is, isn't it ??
In normal writing you'd probably never need to describe its shape - a square is a square usually in a town center - unless you were describiing it in an architectural piece of writing, or maybe for something specific, in which case you would work your way round it :
eg We walked around Siena until we finally reached the famous main square. It was round as we'd seen from photos of the Palio.
Italians might write the sentence differently - Abbiamo passeggiato per le vie di Siena fino ad arrivare alla famosa piazza rotonda, come avevamo visto dalle foto del Palio.
Although this example doesn't work as I think using rotonda in the Italian sentence is unnecessary myself, which proves my point to a certain extent.


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## london calling

_Piazza del Campo _in Siena is shell-shaped, just to complicate matters.. I'd be ok with saying a_ shell-shaped square_, although I suppose some people might prefer to describe it as a "shell-shaped piazza" (it would sound a little pretentious to me, however).

And I agree with Lorena's suggestion too.

Edit. I had a hunt around and found various ways of describing squares (meaning "urban space", of course). Barking Town Square in London is described as a T-shaped square, for example. Here we're talking about a "rectangular-shaped square" like this one, right?


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## Odysseus54

Lorena1970 said:


> That's what I suggested in my post #5



Oh, I know how you would say that - it's Joan's version that I'd like to hear


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## joanvillafane

For what it's worth, here's what I think (besides what I offered in post #4, which no one responded to.  I said "enclosed space" because I was trying to get the idea of "invaso" not so much about the shape).

If this space is in Italy and is known to English speakers as a piazza, then "piazza" in English would be OK.  Otherwise, plaza or square are the translations.  But if you have to use the word "rectangular" then "square" is effectively ruled out.  So we're back to Lorena's post #13, which I think is the best so far.


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## Odysseus54

joanvillafane said:


> For what it's worth, here's what I think (besides what I offered in post #4, which no one responded to.  I said "enclosed space" because I was trying to get the idea of "invaso" not so much about the shape).
> 
> If this space is in Italy and is known to English speakers as a piazza, then "piazza" in English would be OK.  Otherwise, plaza or square are the translations.  But if you have to use the word "rectangular" then "square" is effectively ruled out.  So we're back to Lorena's post #13, which I think is the best so far.



The Garzanti has 'invaso' as

_*2* la capacità di un serbatoio idrico; anche, l'afflusso delle acque in un serbatoio o in altra opera idraulica._

That's why H.'s first translation was 'reservoir'.


As to 'piazza rettangolare', are 'plaza' and 'square' really equivalent ?


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## joanvillafane

This is a really interesting question because it involves a cultural concept which is not directly translatable.  That's why I think it's important to know what city or country we're talking about.  In the U.S.  the idea of a town square or plaza as an open space surrounded by buildings is really kind of old-fashioned and I think limited to some of the older towns.  You see it in movies as an establishing shot to evoke a lost past.  In Santa Fe, NM there's a historic town plaza that is still a great part of city life, but I think it's rather rare, at least in my urban NYC/NJ experience.  
 In the cities, the word "plaza" is used to refer to the wide open space in front of a building like the  Lincoln Center plaza *http://tinyurl.com/6psergw*


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## Odysseus54

joanvillafane said:


> This is a really interesting question because it involves a cultural concept which is not directly translatable.  That's why I think it's important to know what city or country we're talking about.  In the U.S.  the idea of a town square or plaza as an open space surrounded by buildings is really kind of old-fashioned and I think limited to some of the older towns.  You see it in movies as an establishing shot to evoke a lost past.  In Santa Fe, NM there's a historic town plaza that is still a great part of city life, but I think it's rather rare, at least in my urban NYC/NJ experience.
> In the cities, the word "plaza" is used to refer to the wide open space in front of a building like the  Lincoln Center plaza *http://tinyurl.com/6psergw*




That was my feeling too - the cultural difference goes back to what Tacitus describes in his 'Germania' 2,000 years ago about the building habits of the Germans compared to those of the Romans.  An Italian 'piazza' is a place meant to service a local neighborhood ( markets, processions , burning people at the stake etc ) , and every Italian village has at least one of them.

Larger cities have many of them, one or more for each 'rione' - even today people 'vanno in piazza' to meet their friends, buy from the itinerant weekly markets, have a cup of coffee, a snack, look for the girl they like etc.

I have always felt a bit awkward about it - kind of like when I try to explain boots or pick-up trucks to my Italian friends


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## hinagiku

Odysseus, your last post about the concept of square in Italy is very nice 
That's an interesting subject it's worth to talk about.

By now I want to go back to the original "invaso della piazza"

The square and the boulevard we are talking about are: Skanderbeg Square and Rruga e Dibres in Tirana, Albania. 
So it is not actually an Italian concept and I would keep the generic word square.

I am happy to know that, after all has been said, the majority agrees on 



> maybe just
> '... by the rectangular space of the square'



I had proposed in my first post, but no one cared about 

Still I would keep joansvillafane's enclosed to maintain the concept of invaso.

Plaza sounds quite peculiar for this case to me.

I'd choose the enclosed rectangular space of the square... Or maybe enclosed doesn't suit the picture I showed??


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## egog

I don't understand the meanings of the italian sentence,but i think that a good translation is given at
#17 by bristolgirl when she name it "a *lot* of square",i think that it could be used both if the square is builted or not yet.Isn'it?


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## hinagiku

Mmmm... I think you egog mean this sentence:



BristolGirl said:


> A lot of squares are round or oblong.



This a lot means molte... 

Praticamente in questa frase ci sono due edifici che sono messi paralleli ad un viale e al centro di questo pezzo di terreno dove sono messi gli edifici c'è una piazza.
Il testo è di architettura e usa uno stile un po' fiorito, a volte un po' complicato, ma è spesso lo stile dei testi di architettura e va in un certo modo rispettato.


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## BristolGirl

Hello Hinagiku,
As I was the one who introduced 'plaza' I take it back, since it is unsuitable and was only given as a possible alternative on our way to a proper translation to solve the awkwardness of rectangular square. Plaza would be good for a bit of local color in a tourist guide.
I am sorry that I overlooked the fact you had in fact written 'rectangular space of the square' in post #1 - you had hit on the right translation in your context right from the start !!


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## egog

hinagiku said:


> Mmmm... I think you egog mean this sentence:
> 
> 
> 
> This a lot means molte...
> 
> Praticamente in questa frase ci sono due edifici che sono messi paralleli ad un viale e al centro di questo pezzo di terreno dove sono messi gli edifici c'è una piazza.
> Il testo è di architettura e usa uno stile un po' fiorito, a volte un po' complicato, ma è spesso lo stile dei testi di architettura e va in un certo modo rispettato.




OOH,sorryi thought that she used this word in the meanings of "lotto" as for example is used in the sentence " a parking lot",thinking that "lot of park" was the same as "parking lot".
I apologize


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## joanvillafane

And I apologize, too, to hinagiku, for missing that "rectangular space of the square" was in your post #1 !!! 
We have taken a very long walk around the piazza to come back to where we started! But it was very enjoyable.
and thanks for the photo!


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## egog

But have pity for me because i don't understand the word "invaso "yet,it is usually referred to a large vat that is builted as a container for water(for istance a pool),so,why they talk about "invaso" of the place???


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## hinagiku

BristolGirl said:


> Hello Hinagiku,
> As I was the one who introduced 'plaza' I take it back, since it is unsuitable and was only given as a possible alternative on our way to a proper translation to solve the awkwardness of rectangular square. Plaza would be good for a bit of local color in a tourist guide.
> I am sorry that I overlooked the fact you had in fact written 'rectangular space of the square' in post #1 - you had hit on the right translation in your context right from the start !!



It doesn't really matter and it was anyway good to go through all these 'disquisitions', including the one about the word plaza, that is now something more I know! 



joanvillafane said:


> And I apologize, too, to hinagiku, for missing that "rectangular space of the square" was in your post #1 !!!
> We have taken a very long walk around the piazza to come back to where we started! But it was very enjoyable.
> and thanks for the photo!



I agree it was enjoyable... I'm really having fun in this forum! Now maybe the photo fulfils our efforts (if this make sense!)



egog said:


> But have pity for me because i don't understand the word "invaso "yet,it is usually referred to a large vat that is builted as a container for water(for istance a pool),so,why they talk about "invaso" of the place???



I got you meant 'lot' as 'lotto'... It's ok, no apologizing! I don't think you can anyway say lot of parking, instead of parking lot.

The problem with invaso was actually the matter of the thread! And that's what we firstly tried to explain in Italian.
So if you go back to the firts page, to our first posts, you can maybe get an idea!


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## Holymaloney

Hi !
Just a thought: could that _*'invaso' *_in hinagiku's original sentence have anything to do with _*'sunken'*_, as in a 'sunken plaza'? i.e. a square that is _lower _than street level? 
Cheers


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## hinagiku

Holymaloney said:


> Hi !
> Just a thought: could that _*'invaso' *_in hinagiku's original sentence have anything to do with _*'sunken'*_, as in a 'sunken plaza'? i.e. a square that is _lower _than street level?
> Cheers



No, I don't think so. I used this sunken as for sunken garden (let's say... below-grade gaden), but in this case the square is on the road level, not below it, but good to know I properly got the meaning of sunken in architecture!

(I envy you because you're bilingual! )


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## Holymaloney

hinagiku said:


> (I envy you because you're bilingual! )



Haa, don't ! It's not as easy as it seems


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