# Faubourgs



## Bahamutchild

Hello,

I am wondering if there is a Polish term for fauborg, a district outside the original city limits. Also, can anyone tell me how far back the (Polish) term dates? 

Thank you again for your help. Everyone here has been wonderful.

Cheers,
Christina


----------



## agysia

Hi,

I think you mean PRZEDMIES'CIA (literally "before city")...


----------



## Thomas1

This is what I thought of too. Another option could be peryfererje or dzielnica podmiejska, but I like przedmieścia more.

Tom


----------



## agysia

Peryferie is a little bit pejorative (image of dirty empty places where nobody lives) and dzielnica podmiejska I have never heard about this expression, because the word "dzielnica" gives itself  the idea of being an administrative part of a city. I vote przedmiescia (idea of a nice quiet zone)


----------



## Bahamutchild

Thank you everyone 

For przedmies'cia, would the plural be prezedmies'cie?

Also, I see that pomiejski means suburban (rather than suburb) and podmiejskie rudery are slums (if anyone is interested...)

Cheers!


----------



## JakubikF

"przedmiaścia" is already plural. Singular would be przedmieście but rarely used if talking about all those places near to the city.


----------



## Szymon Krulikowski

JakubikF said:


> Singular would be przedmieście but rarely used if talking about all those places near to the city.




I wouldn't be surprised hearing "mieszkam na przedmieściu" - _przedmieściu _is the locative case of _przedmieście._


----------



## kknd

Word _peryferie_ doesn't have negative connotations for me (e.g. dirty); for me it means only 'remote/distant from main body part of sth' roughly.


----------



## BezierCurve

Welcome again, Christine.

If it's _the_ novel, then "_przedmieście"_ sounds way too modern. 

If you go back to mediaeval cities, you could risk "_podgrodzie_", originating from "_gród_", which was a fortified place, sometimes surrounded by a moat. "_Podgrodzie"_ was the area around it, where the poorer part of society used to live.

All the best.


----------



## Bahamutchild

BezierCurve said:


> Welcome again, Christine.
> 
> If it's _the_ novel, then "_przedmieście"_ sounds way too modern.
> 
> If you go back to mediaeval cities, you could risk "_podgrodzie_", originating from "_gród_", which was a fortified place, sometimes surrounded by a moat. "_Podgrodzie"_ was the area around it, where the poorer part of society used to live.
> 
> All the best.



Thanks Bezier and thank you everyone else.

Yes, this is for my novel that is based loosely on medieval Poland. Looks like I'll go with podgrodzie, then. Cheers


----------



## Thomas1

kknd said:


> Word _peryferie_ doesn't have negative connotations for me (e.g. dirty); for me it means only 'remote/distant from main body part of sth' roughly.


This is also my idea of peryferie, but wasn't sure whether it was just me, thanks for this valuable comment, kknd.The word in itself is neutral to me, it can be negative but it's I think contingent upon the way it is used. 

As to the second option it is given as a translation of suburb in PWN dictionary, not that I particularly like this expression, but I can imagine some contexts where it could be used (even as a translation of faubourg). 



Bahamutchild said:


> Thanks Bezier and thank you everyone else.
> 
> Yes, this is for my novel that is based loosely on medieval Poland. Looks like I'll go with podgrodzie, then. Cheers


Bezier has given another option which in fact seems to be the closest of those already given. Literally it would be "zagrodzie", to match sematically Latin and Germanic parts of fraubourg but it's not used in this sense in (modern) Polish. Could you please give the sentence in which you want to use it?

Tom


----------



## Bahamutchild

Thomas1 said:


> Bezier has given another option which in fact seems to be the closest of those already given. Literally it would be "zagrodzie", to match sematically latin and germanic parts of fraubourg but it's not used in this sense in (modern) Polish. Could you please give the sentence in which you want to use it?
> 
> Tom



Hello Tom. I actually use the word (currently as faubourg) quite a bit in my novels. In one area there is a law that you can not build outside the city/town walls (or moats in some cases). So, in short, they've outlawed faubourgs or pod/zagrodzie. In fact, one sentence currently reads: "This town predates the faubourg law."

Does that help or would you like a better explanation?

Also, I like the literal form of zagrodzie. Is that a term you made up? The closest in my dictionary is zagroda-farm, and I don't want to create confusion for my readers who know English and Polish.

Thank you very much for helping me in this.


----------



## Thomas1

Bahamutchild said:


> Hello Tom. I actually use the word (currently as faubourg) quite a bit in my novels. In one area there is a law that you can not build outside the city/town walls (or moats in some cases). So, in short, they've outlawed faubourgs or pod/zagrodzie. In fact, one sentence currently reads: "This town predates the faubourg law."
> 
> Does that help or would you like a better explanation?


Yes, it helps, thank you.
As I see how you are using faubourg in Engish I would say that we would use a different construction in Polish.
"they've outlawed faubourgs" woud translate into Polish as something like : "they've outlawed building in faubourgs" because we tend to treat "podgrodzie" not as buildigns and/or infrastructure but as a place that already exists around a "gród" (fort/town). If there is a "gród" there is a "podgrodzie" with or without buildings.

The sentence you've given would translate (it's a loose translation):
Miasto powstało przed wprowadzeniem prawa o podgrodziach.
or
Miasto powstało przed wprowadzeniem prawa zakazującego rozbudowę podgrodzi. --> The town was created before the implementation of the law forbding developing/extending faubourgs. 

Is it more common to use faubourg in plural in English?



> Also, I like the literal form of zagrodzie. Is that a term you made up? The closest in my dictionary is zagroda-farm, and I don't want to create confusion for my readers who know English and Polish.
> 
> Thank you very much for helping me in this.


Well, I hastened to add what you'd already written... yes I'd made-up this word* and added modern because I wasn't sure whether it might have existed in Old Polish. 
"Zagroda" is as you say a "farm" and I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with "podgrodzie" which is want you want to use I believe. 


*it's not 100% made-up since it is a declined form of "zagroda".

Tom


----------

