# Der/Den



## Reitschuster

Greetings, everyone! I've been reading a forum in Dutch and I've come across two words I didn't expect to find. I apologize in case if this has been asked before.

Context:


> _
> Edoch, een bepaling der misdaad is gelijk enerlei Nederlander. Wat zal er hun te wachten staan, als zij een misdaad (volgens den Nederlandsche wet) plegen en vervolgens ze verdwijnen of er hun iets overkomt — bijvoorbeeld straffen krijgen die illegaal zijn onder den Nederlandse wet? Wat wordt Nederland dan geacht te doen? Nietsdoen of ingrijpen?_



I'm fluent at German and this looks like genetive to me, but I'm not very sure, so I want to ask, what do "der" and "den" mean, and what are the rules regularing their usage?


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## Peterdg

This is not a modern Dutch text. "Der" is indeed a genitive and is still sometimes used (also "des" (masculine genitive) is still sometimes used, mostly in fixed expressions). "Den" is, if I'm not mistaken, a dative and is not used anymore in modern Dutch.


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## Reitschuster

I figured that it isn't, however, this text is a quoted forum post from today, which means that some people are still using it, thus creating a need to understand it.


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## Peterdg

There are three possibilities:

1) the one writing this is trying to sound archaic
2) the one writing this is possibly from some of the former Dutch colonies
3) the one writing this does not have Dutch as his mother tongue

but it is not standard Dutch as it is still used in the Netherlands or in Belgium.

- "Edoch" is archaic.
- The word order, "en vervolgens ze verdwijnen" is at least unusual: it should be "en ze vervolgens verdwijnen".
- in the following passage (extracted from your link)


> Stel gij u eens voor dat dit gebeurt met een Nederlander die zich aangesloten heeft bij enen onachtenswaardige buitenlandse organisatie.


- "gij" is not used in the Netherlands. It is still very alive in Belgium, but then the verb form "stel" is wrong. It should be "stel*t*".

I'm going for option 1: he's *trying* to sound archaic.


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## Teachinglang

I agree with Peterdg, it looks as if this person wants to sound archaic.


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## Reitschuster

Thank you!


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## AllegroModerato

Peterdg said:


> - "gij" is not used in the Netherlands.



Not in writing, but it's very common in informal speech in the southern part of the country.


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## Peterdg

AllegroModerato said:


> Not in writing, but it's very common in informal speech in the southern part of the country.


Is it? I have never ever heard someone from the Netherlands use "gij". I have colleagues from Putte, Roosendaal  and Zundert in the office (which is pretty South, I think) and I have never heard them use "gij" or "ge".


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## AllegroModerato

That's possible. Not everyone from the south uses "gij". Its occurrence is most common among (lower educated) dialect speakers. It's not really considered proper Dutch, so those with a higer level of education tend not to use it.


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