# noun+的+noun (omission of 的)



## dojibear

大家好

As a student I sometimes see 我的朋友 and sometimes see 我朋友. I'm using 朋友 as an example -- it could be another noun. It could also be 你的朋友 or 你朋友.

Being an AE (American English) speaker, I assume that 我的朋友 is always correct, but 的 can be omitted in casual speech or writing, without changing the meaning. 

But Hanyu isn't AE, so I am asking: do 我的朋友 and 我朋友 have the same meaning? Is the same true with other nouns instead of 朋友?

高理


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## retrogradedwithwind

a tricky question, almost no answer to it because people in different regions have their own habits to use or omit 的.

https://dayi.jd100.com/question/14046/
「的」字在什么情况下可以省略？ - 知乎


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## Skatinginbc

I tend to use 我的 (as in 我的朋友) as a _possessive adjective_ and 我 (as in 我朋友) as a _possessive determiner_.  (Note: Modern theorists of grammar prefer to distinguish determiners as a separate word class from adjectives).

possessive adjective: 書是我的朋友 (cf. 書是有益的朋友).  我的朋友不多 (cf. 忠誠的朋友不多), which is structurally different from 我(= I), 朋友不多 "I don't have many friends.")
possessive determiner: 叫我朋友下樓吃飯 (cf. 叫那個朋友下樓吃飯).  我朋友是情痴 (cf. 那個朋友是情痴).


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## Ghabi

dojibear said:


> Is the same true with other nouns instead of 朋友?


It's generally limited to people close to you (我爸 "my dad" , 我老板 "my boss" , 我老师 "my teacher" ). By extension also 我家 "my family", 我公司 "my company", 我学校 "my school". It doesn't include your pets, though. You can't say *我狗死了,好伤心.

There may be exceptions here and there, but it's difficult to think of them. Sometimes the construction is a kind of classicism, but it's better not to deal with them here.

Sometimes one may have an illusion that 的 is omitted between nouns, due to wrong parsing. For example, 我狗死了,老婆跑了,钱没了,怎活下去? which should be parsed as:

我||狗死了,老婆跑了,钱没了,怎活下去?

Not:

我狗||死了,老婆跑了,钱没了,怎活下去?


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## SimonTsai

I generally agree with @Skatinginbc.

But since we pronounce 的 relatively lightly, often the distinction is negligible:
叫你的朋友下來吃飯。
叫你的朋友下來吃飯。​


Ghabi said:


> It doesn't include your pets, though. You can't say "我狗死了, 好伤心".


The sentence might work, I am afraid, were 我 and 好 respectively replaced with 他 and 很.


Ghabi said:


> 我狗死了,老婆跑了,钱没了,怎活下去?


我的狗死了，我的老婆跑了，我的錢沒了，我怎麼活下去？

The above is simply to show that it is an instance of the omission of 我 and 的; it is agreed that to omit them would make the sentence more natural.


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## Skatinginbc

Skatinginbc said:


> possessive determiner: 叫我朋友下樓吃飯 (cf. 叫那個朋友下樓吃飯).





SimonTsai said:


> 叫你朋友下來吃飯。叫你的朋友下來吃飯。


I meant:
"叫你朋友下來吃飯" 的 "你" functions more like a _determiner_ (like "_the_", "_that_", etc.), whose purpose is to specify or identify the reference of a noun (朋友).

"叫你的朋友下來吃飯" 的 "你的" functions more like an _adjective_ (e.g., 年長的 in 年長的朋友, 生病的 in 生病的朋友), whose purpose is to qualify a noun, giving clarifying information or limiting/restricting the scope of a noun (朋友). "你的" can also serve as a _nominal adjective_ (e.g., 你的 in "我說叫我的朋友下來吃飯, 不是*你的*", not _yours_).  Nominal adjectives in Chinese usually take the form of "X的" (e.g., 生病的 in 把生病的都給我宰了).


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## SimonTsai

@Skatinginbc, I am sure that I am aware of what you mean, and as I said, I generally agree. But in everyday conversations, I may not be so punctilious:

[*fabricated*]
This weekend I brought my boyfriend home for the first time. At the time for dinner, he was upstairs, so my mum said to me:
[1] 叫你的男朋友下來吃飯。
[2] 叫你的男朋友下來吃飯。
[3] 叫你的男朋友下來吃飯。​
In the scenario above, all of the three are likely to be heard although [2] and [3] are more possible.


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## Skatinginbc

男的朋友 (= 男的 adjective + 朋友) 'friend that is male; male friend'
你的朋友 (= 你的 adjective + 朋友) 'friend of yours'
他是你的朋友, 不是我的 He is a friend of yours, not mine.


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## SimonTsai

Skatinginbc said:


> 男的朋友 (= 男的 adjective + 朋友) 'friend that is male; male friend'


This is true, of course.

And in post 7, I did mean 'my boyfriend (男朋友)', not just 'a male friend of mine (男性朋友)'.

EDIT:
男性友人 could be someone betwixt and between:
「友人以上，戀人未滿。」​


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## dojibear

Thanks for all the comments, examples, and links. I learned many things.


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## Skatinginbc

Ghabi said:


> It doesn't include your pets, though...There may be exceptions here and there...


For example:
你踢我寵物, 我就踹你老婆...
我狗 (e.g., 你打我狗幹啥 ==> to specify the referent 用來定指) vs. 我的狗 (e.g., 你吃了熊心豹子膽, 竟然敢打我的狗 ==> to qualify the noun 用來強調擁有歸屬).


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## brofeelgood

To expand a bit on the topic... when compound possessives are involved, things get even more complicated. It's no longer just whether or not 「的」 is necessary, but where in the sentence it needs to be as well so it doesn't hurt overall coherence. I can imagine how much of a nightmare this must be for Mandarin learners, because I don't know of a rule that we can follow, and there isn't as large a variety of prepositions at our disposal as it is for English.

For example, how would one deal with and translate an expression like: 'The colour of the toilet seat in the attached bathroom of my condominium's master bedroom.'?
我的公寓的主卧室的浴室的马桶的盖的颜色 is definitely not something you'll hear from a native speaker.

Or how about: 'The colour of the front door handle on my father's car.'?

Would anyone here like to give it a shot?


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## Skatinginbc

Do you like the color of the front door handle on my father's car? 你喜歡我爸轎車前門把手的(modifier)顏色(head of the noun phrase)嗎?


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## retrogradedwithwind

The colour of the toilet seat in the attached bathroom of my condominium's master bedroom

我公寓主卧室附属卫生间的马桶盖颜色
or 我公寓主卧室附属卫生间马桶盖的颜色

的 shall always put before the last or second last noun.


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## SimonTsai

I would do it this way:

The colour of the toilet seat in the attached bathroom of the master bedroom should have been green rather than gold.
主臥室裡的浴室，馬桶蓋的顏色，應該是綠色，不是金色。

Do you like the colour of the front door handle on my father's car?
我爸的車子，前門把手的顏色，你喜歡嗎？​


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## Skatinginbc

我愛金光閃閃, 就連我公寓主卧廁馬桶蓋的顏色也是金黃的.
One may substitute "我公寓主卧廁" with a determiner (e.g., 那/那個 "that"): 就連那(個)馬桶蓋的顏色也是金黃的. My point: "馬桶蓋的" 是 possessive adjective, 其前的 "我公寓主卧廁" 則扮演 determiner 的角色.

您戴的玉鐲, 著實難見, 有我家茅房舊馬桶蓋的色澤, 堪稱一絕.
Again, one may substitute "我家茅房" with "那個": 有那個舊馬桶蓋的色澤.

她嘴塗的是大紅, 耳戴的是大綠, 臉抹的是酒店公廁馬桶蓋的顏色, 泛黃白底沾著恩客醉吐的酒紅.


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## viod

As a native Chinese speaker, this is how I see it:

我的朋友 = a friend of mine
我朋友 = my friend

The omission of 的 is very common in Chinese, and we don't have trouble in understanding it.

Sometimes people would say, 我手机丢了（my phone was lost），and I even heard expressions like 我天啊（我的天啊，My god）. still, most Chinese won't have trouble in understanding it, although some people will find 我天啊 is more difficult to understand.

I think initially, the omission of 的 happens when people speak really fast, or they are just too lazy so they omitted it. Imaging the cases when you substitute "*want to*" with "*wanna*".

In conclusion, expressions with 的 would be more formal, and omission of 的 makes the expressions less formal.


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## SimonTsai

viod said:


> 我天啊


Under no circumstances would I say it; it sounds strange.


Skatinginbc said:


> My point: "馬桶蓋的" 是 possessive adjective, 其前的 "我公寓主卧廁" 則扮演 determiner 的角色.


@Skatinginbc is learned and scholarly as usual; I fully agree: 我公寓主臥廁 determines which 馬桶 is being referred to.

By the way, although being aware that 'to substitute A with B' is now also accepted, I am still used to saying 'to substitute B for A'.


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## Ghabi

SimonTsai said:


> 我的狗死了，我的老婆跑了，我的錢沒了，我怎麼活下去？
> 
> The above is simply to show that it is an instance of the omission of 我 and 的; it is agreed that to omit them would make the sentence more natural.


There is no omission. As said above, it's wrong parsing that creates the illusion of omission. For example, 我||錢包不見了 is not an abbreviated version of 我的錢包||不見了. 我錢包 is not a unit.


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## Skatinginbc

我的天啊 ==> "天" 指的是什麼? "天" 指的是獨一無二的老天爺, 就是 "老天有眼" 的 "老天", 或稱 "天公". 既已是定指了 (specified referent), 獨一無二, 其前再加 possessive determiner (as in *我天啊) 就莫明其妙, 加 possessive adjective (as in 我的天啊) 來修飾 "天" 則能被理解、接受 (like 我敬仰的天啊, 我虔拜的天啊).
*我天啊 (intended to mean 我的天啊)==> 我 cannot be substituted with 那 (那天啊? That day?)

我太上老君發誓 (like 我毛澤東發誓) ==> 太上老君是獨一無二的定指, 故 "我" 不是 "my" (possessive determiner), 而是 "I", "太上老君" 是 "我" 的同位語 (appositive).
*我天啊 ==> 我是天啊?


Skatinginbc said:


> 我的朋友不多 (cf. 忠誠的朋友不多), which is structurally different from 我(= I), 朋友不多 "I don't have many friends.")





Ghabi said:


> 我||錢包不見了 is not an abbreviated version of 我的錢包||不見了. 我錢包 is not a unit.


Ghabi and I basically said the same thing.  We hold the same view.  Please bear in mind however that what Ghabi discussed was a structure different from the 我錢包 in 你把我錢包丟了, in which 我錢包 is a unit and can be substituted with 它 (你把它丟了) and 我 (possessive determiner) can be substituted with 那 (你把那錢包丟了).

A: 你怎麼了?
B: 我錢包不見了.
A: 什麼不見了? 誰的錢包不見了?
B: 我的錢包不見了.

A: 她對你做了什麼?
B: 她把我錢包丟了.
A: 她丟了什麼?  她丟了誰的錢包?
B: 她把我的錢包丟了.

A: 御廚的滿漢全席, 您怎麼不多吃?
B: 這山珍海味固然好,  卻不合我的口味. (我的 as opposed to 平常人的, 別人的)
A: 那還賞不賞廚師?
B: 還賞? 把他辭了罷, 老是不合我意 (這裡說 "不合人意" 也通).


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## SimonTsai

Skatinginbc said:


> 我天啊 ==> 我是天啊?


I am amused, really.

If this was the case, I might tweak it so that it becomes '我？就天啊！'


Skatinginbc said:


> 你把我錢包丟了, in which [...] 我 (possessive determiner) can be substituted with 那 (你把那錢包丟了).


Despite 我 being a possessive determiner, I am still more inclined to say, '你把人家*的*錢包弄丟，是不是至少該向人家道歉？'


Ghabi said:


> For example, 我||錢包不見了 is not an abbreviated version of 我的錢包||不見了. 我錢包 is not a unit.


Your point seems to be beginning to dawn on me.

So which would you prefer? They both work well for me.

[1] 那時他*的*父親坐牢，母親鎮日酗酒，親戚們各個勢利；若不是龔先生相助，他坦言：自己早自暴自棄，絕不可能有今日的成就。
[2] 那時他*的*父親坐牢，母親鎮日酗酒，親戚們各個勢利；若不是龔先生相助，他坦言：自己早自暴自棄，絕不可能有今日的成就。​


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## Skatinginbc

I would pick (2). 那時, 他父親坐牢，母親鎮日酗酒，親戚們各個勢利, (據其坦言), 若非龔先生相助，早就自暴自棄，絕不可能有今日的成就。==> The topic of the whole discourse is about 他, not 他的.


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## SimonTsai

I love this thread, for it evidences that even natives may fail to pay attention to the detail of their first language.


Skatinginbc said:


> The topic of the whole discourse is about 他, not 他的.


This makes sense. But I am happy to be Mr Almost. 


Skatinginbc said:


> 這裡說 "不合人意" 也通.


I would be reluctant to agree.


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## Skatinginbc

Skatinginbc said:


> 這裡說 "不合人意" 也通


我的意思是說: 即使換作"不合人意", 讀者也可由上下文得知, 這裡 "人" 指的主要是 "我". 這是個沒被強調的"我", 與被強調的"我的" (as in 我的口味) 不同.
不合人意 ==> 暗示是我心意.
不合我意 ==> 明指是我心意.
不合我的意 ==> 強調是我的心意.


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## SimonTsai

By the way, I would like to ask: Would you prefer not to omit the last 之?

透過其他綜合損益按公允價值衡量之股票投資之未實現損益 (unrealised gain or loss upon investment in shares at fair value through other comprehensive income)

The above is an account name; I am a student specialised in accounting.


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## Skatinginbc

算在其他綜合損益以反映公允值變動之股票投資未變現盈虧 _unrealized gain or loss *on* investment in shares_ at fair value through other comprehensive income


SimonTsai said:


> unrealised gain or loss *upon *investment in shares at fair value through other comprehensive income


At the time of investment？ Immediately after？ I think "_upon_" is a fancy word that adds more confusion than sophistication in this case.


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## wynn9929

我的朋友， 我朋友 。they are universal in every case，the same of meaning，我的朋友is called writing word。 。for example 我的爸爸 usually is used in writing , 我爸爸is used in speaking .


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## SuperXW

wynn9929 said:


> 我的朋友， 我朋友 。they are universal in every case...


不是这么简单，我的朋友。


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## SimonTsai

@Skatinginbc, I do not see much difference between 'on' and 'upon' in that case. If you do see, could you please privately tell me?

And in finance and accounting, please do distinguish between 盈虧 and 損益, 變現 and 實現, and 以反映公允價值變動 and 按公允價值衡量. (Since I am not here to teach accounting, and since that would amount to being off-topic, I am not going to explain the distinctions. Those feeling curious may create a new thread.)

Finally, I prefer leaving out the 之 slightly over including it, too.


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## wynn9929

SuperXW said:


> 不是这么简单，我的朋友。


何必这么复杂呢？博大精深的汉语，太深究反而外国人太难学了


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## SuperXW

因为提问者的问题很具体，而你的回答容易误导他，我朋友。


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## retrogradedwithwind

我的朋友  和  我朋友  不是口语和书面语的区别啊。

首先这俩在口语和书面语中都用。
其次这俩含义未必全等。上面讨论过了。
最后，人们会说  我朋友的手机。而“我的朋友的手机”，就很怪。


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## Skatinginbc

A: 這是*誰*的手機?
B: 是*我朋友*的手機. 
B: 是*我的朋友*的手機.  ==> 唸起來拗口, 邏輯上彆扭, 問的是「誰」, 解答是哪個人即可, 為何要特別強調這個朋友是我的? 令人感到奇怪反常, 莫明其妙.

誰 ==> 問哪個人
我朋友 ==> 明指是哪個人.
我的朋友 ==> 強調朋友是我的.


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## dojibear

In the popular 2012 song 我的歌声里, the chorus goes like this:
你存在，我深深的脑海里，我的梦里，我的心里，我的歌声里

I notice there is no 的 after the first 我 (but there is after the next 3).

Is it because 的 appears after 深深? Or is 的 omitted for musical reasons (to fit the music)? Is there some other reason? Or is it simply a personal choice?


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## Skatinginbc

Step 1: Both 你存在我的脑海里 and 你存在我脑海里 are correct as standalone sentences.  The choice depends on the context.  The same applies to 我的梦里 vs. 我梦里，我的心里 vs. 我心里，and 我的歌声里 vs. 我歌声里.

Step 2: Introduce the notion of 深深 'deep (in my mind)'.
你存在我的深深的脑海里 
你存在我深深的脑海里 
你存在我的深深脑海里  (incorrect, unless you are talking about having a "deep" mind).
你存在我深深脑海里  It also means you have a "deep" mind.
So, there is only one solution: 你存在我深深的脑海里, in which 我深深的 is an adjective.

Step 3: Because of parallelism, we can only choose possessive adjectives, not possessive determiners, for the rest of the phrases. So we have: 你存在我深深的脑海里，我的梦里，我的心里，我的歌声里.


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## dojibear

Possessive adjectives - vs - possessive determiners. That's a helpful distinction for me to remember.

I did not realize that 在我深深*的*脑海里 meant "deep in my mind" instead of "in my deep mind". But it makes sense. In English we can say "in the depths *of *my mind".

Thank you for listing all the examples, showing how changing one word changes the meaning.


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## stephenlearner

This is a very complicated issue.

I'll try to add my immature viewpoint. You are welcome to correct me.

Let's take 我的钱  for example.

First, there is no word before "我”：

---我的钱丢了。我钱丢了。Both are fine for me.

Second, there are words before “我”：

---他找到了我的钱。他找到了我钱。The first is fine. The second one, at the first sight and from reading aloud first time, sounds odd. But the faster I read it, the more natural it sounds to me.

---他偷我的钱。他偷我钱。Both are fine for me.

---他偷了我的钱。他偷了我钱。The first is fine. The second one, at the first sight and from reading aloud first time, sounds odd. But the faster I read it, the more natural it sounds to me.

---他吞我的钱。他吞我钱。Both are fine for me.

---他吞了我的钱。他吞了我钱。The first is fine. The second one, at the first sight and from reading aloud first time, sounds odd. But the faster I read it, the more natural it sounds to me.


Generally, we drop a syllable only in casual context. So in writing, which is formal in most cases, it's safe to keep the ‘的’.
In formal speech, I think it's safe to keep "的”. In daily casual fast speech, I think we *should* drop “的” in most cases.  We can keep it, but it sounds a little unnatural.  For instance:

我钱丢了 sounds better than 我的钱丢了 in daily casual fast speech. (The word 的 might impact the fluency and smoothness of this sentence.)

他找到了我钱 sounds better than 他找到了我的钱. (In 他找到了我钱, 我 is very soft and weak; the vowel may be dropped)

他偷我钱 sounds better than 他偷我的钱 in daily casual fast speech. (In 他偷我钱, 我 is very soft and weak; the vowel may be dropped)

他偷了我钱 sounds better than 他偷了我的钱.

Why? An idea just came to my mind. There may be a process where the 的 is dropped.  In casual and fast speech, the first step is that 我的 tends to become *wod*. The vowel after d is dropped. The second step is that the consonant *d* is dropped or becomes a glottal stop. The third step is that the* d* is completely dropped.

Step 1: 别吃我的(wod)西红柿. Step 2: 别吃我(wo + a glottal stop) 西红柿. Step 3: 别吃我(wo)西红柿.

In step one, 我 did not have the meaning of 我的; in step 3, 我 has the meaning of 我的.

It's a sad fact that we do not have a rich and long history of written Mandarin. If we had, we could know how and when the 的 in 我的 became dropped.

We need to study 文言文. Does 我 have the meaning of 我的 in 文言文？

----------------------------
I suddenly realized that 的 can be dropped not only after pronouns, but also after nouns.
小明的车坏了。小明车坏了。Both are perfect.

So the omission of 的 is not dependent on the words that precede it, but upon itself.

We need to study the etymology of 的. When did it appear in people's daily speech? The word 的 is one of the most frequently used words. In most frequently used words, the vowel tends to become the schwa. We can find lots of examples in English.

So that is consistent with my original thought: first, the vowel in 的 is dropped; second, the consonant is dropped too.


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## Skatinginbc

stephenlearner said:


> 他偷我的钱。他偷我钱。


I think they are different structures.
他偷我的钱 'He stole my money' ==> 我的钱 is the object.
他偷我钱 'He stole money from me' ==> 我 is the indirect object and 钱 the direct object.
《水滸傳》我們都接了他錢 'We all received money from him' ==> 他 is the indirect object and 錢 the direct object.


stephenlearner said:


> we do not have a rich and long history of written Mandarin.


我的 vs. 我 in《水滸傳》:
我的:
王倫見頭勢不好，口裏叫道：「我的心腹都在那裏？」
這婆娘過來和西門慶說道：「我的武大，今日已死，我只靠著你做主。」
武大道：「我的老婆又不偷漢子，我如何是鴨？」
武松又道：「我的哥哥，從來不曾有這般病，如何心疼便死了？」
對朱武等說道：「我的師父王教頭，在關西經略府勾當。

我:
武松道：「嫂嫂且住，休哭！我哥哥幾時死了？得甚麼症候？喫誰的藥？」
比先時曾學使棒，被我父親一棒打翻，三四個月將息不起，有此之讎。
娘道：「我兒，三十六著，走為上著，──只恐沒處走。」
史進上梯子問道：「你兩個都頭，何故半夜三更來劫我莊上？」
長老道：「你看我面，快去睡了，明日卻說。」


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## stephenlearner

Skatinginbc said:


> 他偷我钱 'He stole money from me' ==> 我 is the indirect object and 钱 the direct object.


Well, it could be this structure. But it lacks enough evidence. We can say 他打我，他掐我，他伤我，but we don't say 他偷我, except for 偷汉子 which is another story.

Last night, I watched one episode of a TV show. I listened carefully how the actors use "的”. For about 40 minutes, I got only 2 or 3 phrases which had a pronoun + 的. Most conversations omitted the 的 after the pronouns.


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## Skatinginbc

stephenlearner said:


> we don't say 他偷我


That's exactly the point.  If you say "He gave me" and no more, it sounds like an incomplete thought and begs for another object.
Give: 他給我XX, 他送我XX...
Take: 他拿我XX, 他奪我XX...

Also, 钱 in 他偷我钱 is indefinite (money, not "the money"), whereas 娘 in 他愛我娘 is definite (referring to a specific person, not any mother).

Then again, 他偷我 is different from 他給我 in the sense that 他給我你的護照 is OK but 他偷我你的護照 is not.  Maybe 偷 is not a verb that takes two objects.


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## Broccolee

dojibear said:


> 大家好
> 
> As a student I sometimes see 我的朋友 and sometimes see 我朋友. I'm using 朋友 as an example -- it could be another noun. It could also be 你的朋友 or 你朋友.
> 
> Being an AE (American English) speaker, I assume that 我的朋友 is always correct, but 的 can be omitted in casual speech or writing, without changing the meaning.
> 
> But Hanyu isn't AE, so I am asking: do 我的朋友 and 我朋友 have the same meaning? Is the same true with other nouns instead of 朋友?
> 
> 高理



Yes, 高理. You explain it very well! That's exactly what I can think of when a non-native speaker asks me the difference between '我的朋友' and '我朋友'.

Broccolee


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