# calidad del foro español-inglés.



## veleño

Hola

Solamente quería comentar que me preocupa la calidad del foro español-inglés, especialmente en la dirección español>inglés. Hace un par de años era relativamente fácil recibir respuestas de hablantes nativos. 

Ahora tengo la impresión de que solamente recibo respuestas de otros hispanohablantes que pese a tener un buen nivel de inglés no tienen el "sabor" del idioma en su cabeza, lo que resulta crucial para ciertas traducciones.

No sé si ya se habían planteado el tema. Un saludo.


----------



## frida-nc

Hola:
A previous thread (un hilo anterior) exists:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=720225


----------



## fenixpollo

En Diciembre del 2005, el dueño del foro hizo una investigación para ver de dónde participaban los miembros. Mike quitó los datos del hilo "where you all are from", pero el hilo sigue en este foro. En ese hilo, Mike observó que el número de miembros españoles era más grande que el número de miembros americanos.





			
				mkellogg said:
			
		

> Here are the Top 9 cities. It's interesting to me that no city in the US is there. That huge dot is Madrid.


 Desde el principio del foro, tengo la impresión que el número de hispanohablantes ha superado el número de angloparlantes, tal vez por dos veces. Es posible que el número de angloparlantes ha disminuido utlimamente, pero no he notado una diferencia.


----------



## bondia

veleño said:


> Hola
> 
> Solamente quería comentar que me preocupa la calidad del foro español-inglés, especialmente en la dirección español>inglés. Hace un par de años era relativamente fácil recibir respuestas de hablantes nativos.
> 
> Ahora tengo la impresión de que solamente recibo respuestas de otros hispanohablantes que pese a tener un buen nivel de inglés no tienen el "sabor" del idioma en su cabeza, lo que resulta crucial para ciertas traducciones.


 

Espero que no sea la opinión de la mayoría de los foreros 

Me consta que somos unos cuantos "angloparlantes" que participamos (muy activamente) en el foro español-inglés, tanto en la traducción del español al inglés, como en el sentido inverso. 
(Iba a decir que a veces traducimos del inglés al español por falta de aportaciones nativos pero, opto por no decirlo)


----------



## veleño

hola,

Mi intención no era ofender a nadie, ni menospreciar el dominio de un idioma de los participantes. Estuve leyendo el hilo anterior y muchas de las opiniones expresadas reflejan mi preocupación.

Simple y llanamente quería llamar la atención sobre el tema y por ejemplo sugerir que se podrían tomar ciertas medidas para incentivar la participación activa de anglo-parlantes. 

Por ejemplo se podría invetir en la promoción del foro en facultades de idiomas de universidades anglo-parlantes. Con seguridad, muchas personas estarán interesadas en participar de este intercambio.

La cantidad de hablantes nativos de inglés es incluso superior a la del español, por lo tanto debe ser posible atraer a más personas a participar del foro.

saludos.


----------



## cubaMania

I do not know whether other native speakers of English have reacted this way, but I can speak for myself alone:  I contribute far less than I did a few years ago because of the poor quality of so many of the questions.  When I have plowed through a dozen questions which are poorly formed, lack punctuation and capitalization, are written in chatspeak, issue demands ("only people from X country should respond", "I must have this immediately", etc.), lack context (or even worse respond rudely or ignorantly to polite requests for context), have made not the slightest attempt to look in the dictionary, ignore previous threads on the same subject, etc. I often exit the forum rather than read any more of this.  I know there are many courteous, well-composed questions, and sometimes I'm in the mood to search for them, but some days I find myself unwilling to dig my way through to them.  I may be overstating the case, but it is possible that this is at least a contributing factor to the problem.


----------



## frida-nc

I agree with all the points that cubaMania has raised, all the while being sad that such valuable people are discouraged from contributing as much as they did in the past.  I would like to focus on the one point "only people from X country should respond," which also appears frequently, after an answer is given, in the form "Thanks, but --any *native* speakers?"  This is contrary to the spirit of the forums.  As has been said eloquently in the previous thread, there are Spanish speakers on this forum with a deep and subtle understanding of English, and there are some similarly talented English speakers with knowledge of Spanish.

But the principle doesn't help our practice.  If you are not satisfied with an answer, please do say so, but have a good reason unrelated to the native language of the speaker.  Tell us about the doubt you have about the answer given, with as much clarity and as collaboratively and politely as you can.  This helps all of us learn, and the person who gave the unsatisfactory answer deserves this helpful knowledge just as much as you do.


----------



## bondia

frida-nc said:


> "Thanks, but --any *native* speakers?" This is contrary to the spirit of the forums. As has been said eloquently in the previous thread, there are Spanish speakers on this forum with a deep and subtle understanding of English, and there are some similarly talented English speakers with knowledge of Spanish.


 
On the (not so rare) occasions when I respond to a post that needs an English-Spanish interpretation, I always make a point of saying that I am not a native speaker, and recommend waiting for native replies. Not everyone  notices the "native language" displayed alongside our name, and I think it is correct to draw their attention to it. Do you agree?
Regards


----------



## Vanda

Quoting Cubamania:


> issue demands ("only people from X country should respond", "I must have this immediately", etc.), lack context (or even worse respond rudely or ignorantly to polite requests for context), have made not the slightest attempt to look in the dictionary, ignore previous threads on the same subject, etc.


Although you are pointing out a specific forum, I'd like to meddle in. 
When someone reacts badly to other countries usage, let's say someone asked for Brazilian usage and one of the replies applies to Portugal, I say that in benefit of future searchs when  someone might look for European Pt rather than Brazilian usage the thread will be of benefit to all, so all replies are welcome. As for which country that reply aplies to, we can always count on the forero's profile or the place of that usage can come clearly appointed inside the post. Example: _in my country we say/prefer,_ etc. 
And if someone responds rudely to polite requests I'd say it is for the benefit of him/her doubt because things may change according to context. Those things happen mainly with newbies, as the person get acquainted to the forums he/she'll be used to give context or know that request is one of the forum's rule he/she should abide for.


----------



## TimLA

When I first saw this thread, I went to the Spanish/English forums (I often spend time on the Medical Spanish forum) and tried to help with a few questions.
I found that most of the time there was "native" input, so I've backed-off a bit.



cubaMania said:


> I contribute far less than I did a few years ago because of the poor quality of so many of the questions. When I have plowed through a dozen questions which are poorly formed, lack punctuation and capitalization, are written in chatspeak, issue demands ("only people from X country should respond", "I must have this immediately", etc.), lack context (or even worse respond rudely or ignorantly to polite requests for context), have made not the slightest attempt to look in the dictionary, ignore previous threads on the same subject, etc. I often exit the forum rather than read any more of this.


I agree - I've seen that in those forums. I spend most of my time on IE, and when I see confused questions, no attempts, etc, I'll just add that particular user to my ignore list.



frida-nc said:


> "Thanks, but --any *native* speakers?"


This drives me nuts! I've learned MUCH English from non-native speakers because of their different perspective - even those with moderate experience in the language will often come up with an interesting insight that I hadn't seen because it comes "native" to me. Many times I'll just add the person who makes that statement to my ignore list.


----------



## frida-nc

> I always make a point of saying that I am not a native speaker, and recommend waiting for native replies.


Oh yes, I often do this too, although perhaps we should be saying simply "other replies," so as not to hinder knowledgeable non-natives from replying.

Questions from Spanish speakers seem equally divided between translation from Spanish into English, and English into Spanish. Is it more valuable to have a native speaker evaluating and understanding the original text, or a native speaker choosing just the right words to frame it in the target language?  Of course, that's an impossible choice, so let's leave it that we will all apply our talents where we can!


----------



## bondia

frida-nc said:


> Oh yes, I often do this too, although perhaps we should be saying simply "other replies," so as not to hinder knowledgeable non-natives from replying.


 
I'll bear than in mind. Thanks


----------



## swift

La publicación de nuevas consultas en los foros español <=> inglés es tan vertiginosa que a menudo se me hace difícil seguirle el ritmo; en muchas ocasiones publico respuestas inútiles porque al momento de pinchar "post quick reply" ya hay dos o tres respuestas más. Por eso, prefiero siempre que tengo el tiempo y las energías y las ganas buscar las discusiones con cero respuestas; haciendo eso me he dado cuenta de que un gran porcentaje de las consultas han quedado sin resolver porque la formulación del mensaje es vaga, carece de contexto, o está dirigida a informantes particulares.

Lo más curioso es que entre los participantes que tienen el inglés como primera lengua y que son asiduos, un buen número se interesa más en temas de vocabulario y de gramática española  que en la traducción español → inglés . En mi caso, hace tiempo me resolví a atender aquellas discusiones en que las respuestas no son satisfactorias (o llanamente impresentables) desde el punto de vista gramatical o traductológico; a menudo, ni siquiera el interesado se ha enterado de que le propusieron una traducción malísima, y eso sucede porque muchos confían en el criterio del "nativo".

Un tema (ligeramente) relacionado.

Algo más que añadir:



cuchuflete said:


> Often, a forero leaves a question without sufficient context or a full example of the usage they are asking about.
> 
> In that situation, we need to apply our knowledge and experience and  logic in attempting an answer.  We cannot have absolute certainty.    This is quite distinct from just taking a guess.
> The most important thing is to label our answers, if we feel there is some uncertainty.
> 
> Example:  "Given the lack of context, and the ambiguity of the  phrase....this is my best guess:...."   or, "I'm not sure, but this is a  possibility:..."


----------



## mkellogg

Hi everybody,

I am interested to see the reported problems and try to find a solution.  Can you give me some examples of threads that lack good answers?

Mike


----------



## Philippa

Hi,
I spent a rare and happy hour or so last night looking through the español-inglés foro and there seemed to be at least twice as many English to Spanish vocabulary requests as Spanish to English ones. Maybe that affects how many Spanish or English speaking natives frequent the forum. Maybe it was just chance or the time of day. When I found a question I felt I could contribute to, it was an English to Spanish one, perhaps just because there are more of them!





frida-nc said:


> Is it more valuable to have a native speaker evaluating and understanding the original text, or a native speaker choosing just the right words to frame it in the target language?  Of course, that's an impossible choice, so let's leave it that we will all apply our talents where we can!


 I agree!

Saludos desde Reading
Philippa  6 years to the day since I joined the foros!


----------



## merquiades

cubaMania said:


> I do not know whether other native speakers of English have reacted this way, but I can speak for myself alone:  I contribute far less than I did a few years ago because of the poor quality of so many of the questions.  When I have plowed through a dozen questions which are poorly formed, lack punctuation and capitalization, are written in chatspeak, issue demands ("only people from X country should respond", "I must have this immediately", etc.), lack context (or even worse respond rudely or ignorantly to polite requests for context), have made not the slightest attempt to look in the dictionary, ignore previous threads on the same subject, etc. I often exit the forum rather than read any more of this.  I know there are many courteous, well-composed questions, and sometimes I'm in the mood to search for them, but some days I find myself unwilling to dig my way through to them.  I may be overstating the case, but it is possible that this is at least a contributing factor to the problem.



I couldn't agree with you more.  I haven't gone on the English-Spanish forum for a really long time now because I consider the quality not as good as Sólo Español or English only.  When I'm looking for vocabulary items/ grammar explanations, even translations, I'll simply rephrase my question somehow and then ask in one of these fora.  The difference is amazing; you get very poignant, thoughtful, high level comments. Besides I'm afraid I do find some foreros rude there, either directly on the thread or sending private messages.


----------



## cubaMania

Vanda said:


> Quoting Cubamania:
> Although you are pointing out a specific forum, I'd like to meddle in.
> When someone reacts badly to other countries usage, let's say someone asked for Brazilian usage and one of the replies applies to Portugal, I say that in benefit of future searchs when  someone might look for European Pt rather than Brazilian usage the thread will be of benefit to all, so all replies are welcome. As for which country that reply aplies to, we can always count on the forero's profile or the place of that usage can come clearly appointed inside the post. Example: _in my country we say/prefer,_ etc.
> And if someone responds rudely to polite requests I'd say it is for the benefit of him/her doubt because things may change according to context. Those things happen mainly with newbies, as the person get acquainted to the forums he/she'll be used to give context or know that request is one of the forum's rule he/she should abide for.


Vanda, you are right, of course, and when these problems were less frequent in the Spanish-English forum, that is how I responded.  I am only pointing out, for what it may be worth, that there are now so many of these problem posts that they sometimes exhaust my patience before I even get to the point where I am actually helping someone with a translation or grammar question.

Por supuesto, tienes toda la razón.  Cuando eran pocos estos problemas en el foro de español-inglés, así respondaba yo, pero ahora son tantos que a veces pierdo la paciencia antes de llegar a ayudar en una traducción o en gramática.  Es solo la experiencia de una persona, por si acaso explique en parte el porqué del problema que nota veleño.


----------



## Oldy Nuts

I often write jokingly "...but better wait for the natives/...mejor espera a los nativos". It hadn't crossed my mind that there may be many who don't understand the joke.

And of course I fully agree with cubaMania, although I either skip those messages, or report them. And sometimes I even respond to them, sometimes with pleasantly surprising results...


----------



## Oldy Nuts

Even if reading the rules is made compulsory for registering in the forums, how would you verify that a newcomer does read them? How many people actually read the ULAs one has to declare to have read and accept before instaling a new software or major upgrade?

Unfortunately, I think that we are bound to accept newcomers who don't respect the rules simply because they don't know them. The only viable way and can think of modifying this behaviour is by a process of education such as the one that is attempted nowadays by moderators, with the help of participants who report such cases, and that seems to produce positive results very quickly in most cases.

Also unfortunbately, many seasoned parfticipants do not cooperate: they don't report such cases, they don't make newcomers aware of what they are doing wrong, they answer their questions, and they even make a full correction/translation of long paragraphs. This is certainly no way to help in educating newcomers.

The problem is real, and solutions are not easy. If we all cooperate, we may alleviate it considerably, but I very much doubt we will ever make it disappear.


----------



## Nanon

Oldy Nuts said:


> Also unfortunately, many seasoned participants do not cooperate: they don't report such cases, they don't make newcomers aware of what they are doing wrong,


ON, this is certainly a problem, and it should not disappear unless we stop welcoming new forer@s!... But sometimes we don't want to make newcomers aware of what they are doing wrong, or quote from the rules or send them a link, because we don't want to act as self-named moderators or wannabe moderators. And also because it may be discouraging for newbies to get a "read the rules first" reminder instead of a welcome (let alone an answer to their question)...


----------

