# All dialects/MSA: to have just ...



## Ansonesque

Hi everyone,

I have a question about how to render the following construction into both Standard as well as colloquial Arabic:

English: 'To have just done something' - e.g. "I have just returned."

French: 'Venir de faire quelque chose' - e.g. "Je viens de rentrer."

Spanish: 'Acabar de hacer algo' - e.g. "Acabo de regresar."

In colloquial Arabic, would we say:

            ? Levantine-   إسّا  رجعت

? Egyptian-     لسّا  رجعت


and in Modern Standard:

    ?    قد رجعتُ منذ قليل or قد رجعتُ أخيراً  

For whatever reason I've never found a comfortable way to express this concept of having 'just now done something.' Any suggestion y'all might have would be greatly appreciated...


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## clevermizo

Ansonesque said:


> In colloquial Arabic, would we say:
> 
> ? Levantine-   إسّا  رجعت
> 
> ? Egyptian-     لسّا  رجعت



I don't know about Egyptian, but لسا means "still" and sounds a little strange in this construction to me. Maybe it's used. The normal constructions I would use in Levantine Arabic would be (and whether or not they are correct is up for grabs):

هلأ رجعت
_halla2 raja3(e)t_
هلأ راجع
_halla2 raaje3_

The combination of "now" with either the past tense verb or the participle gives the connotation that it has just recently occurred. "I have (just) now arrived" is the idea.


> and in Modern Standard:
> 
> ?    قد رجعتُ منذ قليل or قد رجعتُ أخيراً


قد رجعت منذ قليل looks better to me, but I don't know what the standard collocation in fus7a is for this.


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## elroy

The word to use in standard Arabic is للتو (_lit-taw_).

رجعت للتو من السوق (_raja3tu lit-taw min as-suuq_) = I just came back from the market.

رجعت أخيرًا = I finally came back.
رجعت منذ قليل = I came back a short/little while ago.

هلأ is correct in Levantine. You could emphasize the "just" aspect of it by adding بعد + pronoun suffix.

هلأ رجعت (_halla2 ijri3et_)
هلأ بعدني رجعت (_halla2 ba3idni rji3et_)
بعدني هلأ رجعت (_ba3idni halla2 irji3et_)

[Notice that the colloquial pronunciation is _rj*i*3et_.]

I would not use the active verbal participle without بعدني with a verb of movement, because that would have a future meaning (هلأ راجع: I'm coming back now). هلأ بعدني راجع and بعدني هلأ راجع would be fine. For some reason, though, the past tense sounds much better to me with the verb راح, even with بعدني.

This is not an issue with other verbs, so هلأ ماكل and هلأ أكلت, for example, have the same meaning.

There is an idiomatic structure that can be used with some, but not all, verbs, in Palestinian Arabic (and probably the other Levantine dialects as well) in certain contexts.

هي جيتي/جينبي (_hay jayti/jeenti_) - I just came.
هي وصلتي (_hay waSilti_) - I just arrived (got here).
هي دخلتي (_hay dakhilti_) - I just came in. 

These are used to emphasize the recentness of the arrival.

As for Egyptian, لسا is used in this context, but as far as I know it's used with a pronoun suffix and the active verbal participle:

لساني راجع (_lissani raage3_)

We don't use this structure in Levantine, but it doesn't sound odd because we're so used to hearing it on TV.


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## Josh_

elroy said:


> As for Egyptian, لسا is used in this context, but as far as I know it's used with a pronoun suffix and the active verbal participle:
> 
> لساني راجع (_lissani raage3_)


It can be used both ways in Egyptian:

lissa raagi3
lissaani raagi3

There is also the word يادوب yadoob which gives the meaning of just having happened.

Also, as Elroy intimated active participles can give the meaning of just having done something.  I'm not sure if all of them do, but definitely many.    واكل waakil and شارب shaarib are two I usually think of when considering this structure:

(ana) yadoob waakil or lissa waakil.
I've just eaten.

I spoke a little about waakil here.

tiHibb tishrab Haaga sa23a?
la shukran, ana lissa shaarib Pepsi.

Would you like a cold drink?
No thanks, I just drank a Pepsi.


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## Andrew___

Can you say  *الآن فقط* to express this concept? (ie. in the sense of "I have eaten dinner just now").

I sincerely hope so since I have used this phrase a lot...


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## elroy

Sorry to disappoint you, but that doesn't work in Arabic.


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## Andrew___

That's disappointing.  I didn't invent this phrase myself though, someone told it to me although I can't remember from where I heard this.  Now I will try to unlearn this phrase


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## elroy

Let me know if you remember the particular context/sentence in which you read/heard it.  Without further information it sounds like an incorrect literal translation from English.





Josh_ said:


> It can be used both ways in Egyptian:
> 
> lissa raagi3
> lissaani raagi3


 It can't be used with the past tense though, can it?


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## cherine

Josh_ said:


> It can be used both ways in Egyptian:
> 
> lissa raagi3
> lissaani raagi3


lissaani is not very commonly used, lissa is the more common one.


> There is also the word يادوب yadoob which gives the meaning of just having happened.


Correct. And there's also lessa yadoob, like: ana lessa yadoob dakhla el beet أنا لسة يا دوب داخلة البيت (I just came into the house/arrived).


elroy said:


> It can't be used with the past tense though, can it?


Yes, it can. Just add كان before it 
كان لسة واصل البيت = he had just arrived
كان لسة مخلَّص أكل = he had just finished eating
كان لسة حيبتدي مذاكرة = he was just about to start studying
....

The meaning can differ according to structure.


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## elroy

No, that's not what I meant.  I meant whether the past tense can be used after the word لسا instead of the participle - i.e. can you say لسا رجعت as opposed to لسا راجع?  (See Post #1.)


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## cherine

Oh, I see. No we can't say لسا رجعت - لسا أكلت ....


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## Ansonesque

Thank you all very much for a most interesting discussion! It has been incredibly helpful...



So to sum up what we've discussed:

MSA -  past tense of a verb +للتو

Levantine -  _halla2 _(+/- b3d) + past tense of a verb

Egyptian - _lissa _and/or ya doob + present participle of a verb


Does that all sound about right?

I am also curious as to the construction/origin of يا دوب. I'd never really heard that one before - or at least didn't realize it if I had ... Up until now I was only aware of _lissa _in Egyptian_..._


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## elroy

I would just add that we also use the participle in Levantine, but not always, as I explained previously.

We also use يا دوب, actually.  I don't know what the origins are, but in other contexts it can mean "barely," so when you say يا دوبني داخل it's like you're saying "I've barely come in" - i.e. "I've just come in."


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> lissaani is not very commonly used, lissa is the more common one.


Yes, of course.  I should have mentioned that.  I always just use the word لسة and have never heard it with a pronoun myself, but was told by an Egyptian that it occurs.

Concerning Elroy's question, after I posted my last post I thought about it more and realized that I was confusing things.  Yes, the participle is always used with lissa to indicate that something has just happened.  

What I was thinking about was those participles that, by themselves, refer to having done something, or more correctly, being in a state of having done something.  For example, waakil and shaarib.

When you want to say "I am going" it is "_ana raayiH_", but if you want to say "I am eating" you cannot say "_ana waakil_" (but rather ana baakul) because _waakil_, itself, refers to having (just) eaten.  Same with _shaarib_.



Ansonesque said:


> I am also curious as to the construction/origin of يا دوب. I'd never really heard that one before - or at least didn't realize it if I had ... Up until now I was only aware of _lissa _in Egyptian_..._


I also am not sure of the origin of يادوب , but I just wanted to say that I am not sure we can automatically think that it is a two-word combination made up of يا and دوب .  It could very well be just a word of the pattern فاعول like the name هارون .


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## suma

للتو (_lit-taw_)

How common is this form? I mean using the pronoun suffix instead
 
لتوي رجعت من السوق = I just came back from the market

رجعت من السوق لتوها = she just came back from the market


also does it matter much the placement of _taw? _before or after the verb or at end of sentence?
seems odd, but I've never come across this word myself. I think I would here: _*raja3tu da7een*_ or _*dalwa2ti*_


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## ayed

I have just returned : *توني معود*  tawni m3awwid(colloquial)


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## Mahaodeh

In Iraq they use هستوني, which is a mix of هسّة and توّني. As for لسّة, it's only used with negation (لسة ما رجع).


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## licinio

Ansonesque said:


> Thank you all very much for a most interesting discussion! It has been incredibly helpful...
> 
> So to sum up what we've discussed:
> 
> MSA - past tense of a verb +للتو
> Levantine - _halla2 _(+/- b3d) + past tense of a verb
> Egyptian - _lissa _and/or ya doob + present participle of a verb


 
Couldn't we add the construction لقد + ماضٍ in fusHa?
لقد رجعت من السوق


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## elroy

licinio said:


> Couldn't we add the construction لقد + ماضٍ in fusHa?
> لقد رجعت من السوق


 لقد does not add a "just" meaning to the sentence.


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## cherine

suma said:


> للتو (_lit-taw_)
> 
> How common is this form? I mean using the pronoun suffix instead
> 
> لتوي رجعت من السوق = I just came back from the market
> 
> رجعت من السوق لتوها = she just came back from the market
> 
> 
> also does it matter much the placement of _taw? _before or after the verb or at end of sentence?


You can put it almost anywhere in the sentence:
رجعت لتوها من السوق
رجعت من السوق لتوها
لتوها رجعت من السوق
Although the last one doesn't sound as good as the first too.

In Egypt, there's the word "tawwak", not a very common one, with the same meaning, and the "k" doesn't change:
لسة توَّك راجع من السوق (I just came from the market)
لساه توّك راجع من السوق (he just came from the market)

يا دوب and حالاً are used more often
لسة يا دوب راجع
لسة راجع حالاً - لسة حالاً راجع


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## Andrew___

cherine said:


> لسة راجع حالاً - لسة حالاً راجع



Thanks Cherine.  I like these, they are very useful, and I used this expression today to break away from the horrible لتو construction


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## londonmasri

This is a brilliant thread, thankyou for bringing it up Andrew.

Just to confirm, can you say:

_Huwwa lissa ma-akelsh 7aaga _
_huwwa lissa mish waakil 7aaga _
He still hasn't eaten anything

Is this correct?


LM


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## djamal 2008

In colloquial algerian : its Dork Berk literaly _now just_, although in eastern part of the country is tawa jee2t (I just got here).

laas 2affeker : I'm always thinking, to express the continuity.


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## Smajie

elroy said:


> لقد does not add a "just" meaning to the sentence.



_qad_ actually may express this notion in certain contexts, in which cases the grammarians called it _qad litaqrībi lmāḍi mina lḥāl_. I believe a standard example is _daxaltu lġurfata waqad xaraja minha zaydun_, that is approximately "When I entered the room Zayd had just left it". Another good example is _qad qāmati ṣṣalāt_ "the (time of) prayer is come". Cf. Wright's Grammar of the Arabic Language, vol. 2, pp. 3-4.


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## lukebeadgcf

In your example, دخلت الغرفة وقد خرج منها زيد is حال. I  understand the قد here as being for التحقيق. The وقد construction in  this case carries the meaning of the pluperfect. I would translate it:  "I entered the room with Zayd having already left," although I'm your  translation could work in certain contexts. Also, I didn't find that  example in the pages you cited from Wright.

Welcome to the forums!


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## Finland

Hello!



djamal 2008 said:


> In colloquial algerian : its Dork Berk literaly _now just_, although in eastern part of the country is tawa jee2t (I just got here).



But wouldn't it be more frequently epxressed, at least in Algiers, by saying "hadaouine wSelt"? (هداوين وْصلت)

HTH
S


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## Smajie

lukebeadgcf said:


> In your example, دخلت الغرفة وقد خرج منها زيد is حال. I  understand the قد here as being for التحقيق. The وقد construction in  this case carries the meaning of the pluperfect. I would translate it:  "I entered the room with Zayd having already left," although I'm your  translation could work in certain contexts. Also, I didn't find that  example in the pages you cited from Wright.
> 
> Welcome to the forums!



Thank you. 

That example is indeed not from Wright. I think one of my teachers used to cite it. He used to talk about it as an example of a perfect - the speaker describes a Zaydless room, so to speak, Zayd isn't there and in fact he has no idea where he is, but he can still smell his cologne in the air, and the result of the past action is relevant and evident. Note that your translation uses a perfect, "having left", which is exactly the notion I am claiming that _qad_ expresses. In any case, I'm not really interested in debating the specific example as long as we agree that _qad_ does express the notion of perfect or recentness sometimes. I do think circumstantial clauses are contexts where this use is especially prominent. 

As an aside, note that concepts like _taḥqīq_ are very fuzzy, and sometimes used as an easy way out in linguistic analysis. I do recognize that this is one of the uses of _qad_ - it is easily identifiable and justifiable in responses for example - but why, lacking context, would you think that the speaker wishes to emphasize the fact the Zayd has left the room? I would more readily accept a claim that the use of _qad_ here cannot be justified wthout context than an intensification.


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## WannaBFluent

elroy said:


> I would not use the active verbal participle without بعدني with a verb of movement, because that would have a future meaning (هلأ راجع: I'm coming back now). هلأ بعدني راجع and بعدني هلأ راجع would be fine. *For some reason, though, the past tense sounds much better to me with the verb راح, even with بعدني.*


Could you explain this? Do you mean that we can render the immediate past with raa7 + perfect form verb?


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## elroy

WannaBFluent said:


> Could you explain this? Do you mean that we can render the immediate past with raa7 + perfect form verb?


 No.  I was referring to راح as a full verb, not an auxiliary verb.  I was saying that I prefer بعدني هلأ رحت or هلأ بعدني رحت to بعدني هلأ رايح or هلأ بعدني رايح; even though for other verbs of motions (like رجع) I don't have a strong preference.

Is that clear?


Smajie said:


> _qad_ actually may express this notion in certain contexts, in which cases the grammarians called it _qad litaqrībi lmāḍi mina lḥāl_. I believe a standard example is _daxaltu lġurfata waqad xaraja minha zaydun_, that is approximately "When I entered the room Zayd had just left it". Another good example is _qad qāmati ṣṣalāt_ "the (time of) prayer is come".


 I don't agree with your first example.  For me, the sentence is perfectly compatible with a situation in which Zayd left the room a long time before I entered it (i.e. in which Zayd's departure was not recent and "just" can't be used).  I agree that the second example expresses present perfect, but present perfect is not the same as "just" so the second example doesn't support your claim either.


ayed said:


> *توني معود*  tawni m3awwid(colloquial)


 توّني/توّك/توّو/توّها/... are used in Palestinian Arabic too.


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## Hemza

In the North of Morocco,
عاد is used (عاد درته/عملته)

In حسانية, it is توّ/توّا which is used but it is not declined


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## Raspberryjam

cherine said:


> كان لسة واصل البيت = he had just arrived
> كان لسة مخلَّص أكل = he had just finished eating
> كان لسة حيبتدي مذاكرة = he was just about to start studying


I was just wondering if anyone could translate those three sentences into Levantine? Elroy?


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## WannaBFluent

elroy said:


> No. I was referring to راح as a full verb, not an auxiliary verb. I was saying that I prefer بعدني هلأ رحت or هلأ بعدني رحت to بعدني هلأ رايح or هلأ بعدني رايح; even though for other verbs of motions (like رجع) I don't have a strong preference.
> 
> Is that clear?


Yes it is. Thank you 



ayed said:


> I have just returned : *توني معود* tawni m3awwid(colloquial)





elroy said:


> توّني/توّك/توّو/توّها/... are used in Palestinian Arabic too.


*taww + pronominal suffix* is also used in Iraq.
They also use *hastaww + pronominal suffix*.
Are those used in Syria too ?


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## cherine

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I see there's a post that hasn't been answered:


londonmasri said:


> Just to confirm, can you say:
> 
> _Huwwa lissa ma-akelsh 7aaga
> huwwa lissa mish waakil 7aaga _
> He still hasn't eaten anything
> 
> Is this correct?


Actually, it's the other way round that is correct: lessa ma-akalsh(e) 7aaga لسة ما أكلش حاجة and it means: he didn't eat anything yet or he didn't eat anything till now.


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## WannaBFluent

elroy said:


> We also use يا دوب, actually. I don't know what the origins are, but in other contexts it can mean "barely," so when you say *يا دوبني داخل* it's like you're saying "I've barely come in" - i.e. "I've just come in."


Are you sure it's not *yaa doobi* instead of *yaa doobni* ?
I think I've come across this expression without the *yaa*. Can we just say *doobi *without the *yaa *?


cherine said:


> يا دوب and حالاً are used more often
> لسة يا دوب راجع


Why there's no pronominal suffix on *yaa doob* in this example. Is it because it is associated with *lessa *?


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## cherine

WannaBFluent said:


> Why there's no pronominal suffix on *yaa doob* in this example. Is it because it is associated with *lessa *?


No, it's because يا دوب is a fixed expression, being preceded by lessa doesn't change that. I don't think I've ever heard an Egyptian use يا دوبي، يا دوبه... though it could exist in some dialects/accents I'm not aware of.


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## elroy

Raspberryjam said:


> I was just wondering if anyone could translate those three sentences into Levantine?


he had just arrived - كان بعدو واصل/كان توّو واصل/كان يا يدوب واصل/ما لِحْقِش يوصل
he had just finished eating - كان بعدو مْخَلِّص أكل/كان توّو مْخَلِّص أكل/كان يا دوب مْخَلِّص أكل/ما لِحْقِش يخَلِّص أكل
he was just about to start studying - This is a different "just" and doesn't belong in this thread. 


WannaBFluent said:


> Are you sure it's not *yaa doobi* instead of *yaa doobni* ?


 I think both are used.  But it's "ya" (short) not "yaa." 


WannaBFluent said:


> Can we just say *doobi *without the *yaa *?


 Yes.


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## Mahaodeh

Ansonesque said:


> am also curious as to the construction/origin of يا دوب. I'd never really heard that one before





elroy said:


> We also use يا دوب, actually. I don't know what the origins are


I just want to point out that it comes from Classical Arabic.


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## tounsi51

WannaBFluent said:


> *taww + pronominal suffix* is also used in Iraq.
> They also use *hastaww + pronominal suffix*.
> Are those used in Syria too ?



Used also in Tunisia in the sense of now, right now, but without pronominal suffix

ex تو جيت, تو جاء

sometimes we double it تو تو


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## WannaBFluent

How would you say *'it's too late, I've just shut down the computer, I won't turn it back on right now'* in Syrian Arabic?
The context is : one of your friend tells you 'hey, can I check my emails quickly?' while you've just turned your computer off.


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## elroy

WannaBFluent said:


> 'it's too late, I've just shut down the computer, I won't turn it back on right now'


 In Palestinian I would say

خلص راحت عليك، هلأ طفيت الكومبيوتر، مش راح أرجع أضويه هلأ

I'm sure it's different in some ways in Syrian, but I'm confident "just" would be rendered as هلأ in this context, as in Palestinian.


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## WannaBFluent

Another question about this issue: do we have to repeat *hallaq *before each perfect verb and can we just say it once for several verbs?

For example, if I want to say: _'After that you've just told me his name, I've just remembered him'_.
Can I just say: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, dzakkarto*.
Or do I have to say: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, hallaq dzakkarto*.


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## Mahaodeh

hallaq means 'right now', or 'just now'; if you are talking about the past, I wouldn't use it. I'd say:
*ba3d ma qeltilli 2ismo, dzakkarto* (you can also add *3aTool* in the end).
Or, if you mean: 'now that you've told me his name, I've just remembered him' - that is, he just told you his name and that's when you immediately remembered him then I'd go with the first: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, dzakkarto*


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## WannaBFluent

Mahaodeh said:


> hallaq means 'right now', or 'just now'; if you are talking about the past, I wouldn't use it. I'd say:
> *ba3d ma qeltilli 2ismo, dzakkarto* (you can also add *3aTool* in the end).
> Or, if you mean: 'now that you've told me his name, I've just remembered him' - that is, he just told you his name and that's when you immediately remembered him then I'd go with the first: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, dzakkarto*


So we can say that the *hallaq *placed before *qélt *is actually also influencing the *dzakkart*?
Or is *dzakkart *just an usual perfect verb?


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## apricots

I think your example _'After that you've just told me his name, I've just remembered him' _in English is unnatural. I don't think I would repeat just twice in a thought like this in English and Arabic appears to be the same. A more natural English sentence would be "I('ve) just remembered his name now that you('ve) told me."


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## analeeh

WannaBFluent said:


> Another question about this issue: do we have to repeat *hallaq *before each perfect verb and can we just say it once for several verbs?
> 
> For example, if I want to say: _'After that you've just told me his name, I've just remembered him'_.
> Can I just say: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, dzakkarto*.
> Or do I have to say: *ba3d ma hallaq qélt-élli 2ésmo, hallaq dzakkarto*.



I think you're imagining that this structure is some kind of 'recent past' tense - it isn't. It's an adverb just like the same construction in English or indeed French.


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## WannaBFluent

Mmmh, in fact, I was wondering if it works a bit like in French.
In French we say *venir de + infinitive verb* :
_je viens de manger = I've just eaten ; je viens de dormir = I've just slept ; etc._

And we can add *de + another infitive verb* to express the same idea further in the sentence (no need to repeat *venir*) :
_je viens de manger du poulet et de dormir = I've just eaten chicken and (I've just) slept_

So I wanted to know if *dzakkart *was working just like *slept *in my last sentence (i.e. if *hallaq *is also ruling *dzakkart*).



analeeh said:


> I think you're imagining that this structure is some kind of 'recent past' tense - it isn't. It's an adverb just like the same construction in English or indeed French.


Mmmh, so you mean that *hallaq + perfect verb* could be translated in an other way than *to have just* ?


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