# zin (sentence, meaning, desire, sense)



## ThomasK

The Dutch word 'zin' has quite some meanings, some of which I mention here without reference to their age : 
(1) sentence [_sentence structure, not punishment_], 
(2) meaning, 
(3) direction, 
(4) feeling [_geen zin om_ ..., not feeling like doing something), and 
(5) sense (but mostly _zintuig_, 'sensorial tool'). 

But do you have a word [maybe an old word] in your language that combines several of these meanings? _(I don't mind you mentioning the translation for all though...)_

_If you're interested in the etymology, there seem to be two conflicting theories: one states that direction is the original meaning, the other one refers to _sentire_, to feel, feeling._


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## apmoy70

In Greek we translate Nr 1 (sentence) as:
a/ «Ποινή» (pi'ni _f._), from the Classical feminine noun «ποινὴ» (poi'nē)-->init. _bloodmoney_, later _price paid, satisfaction, requital, penalty_ from PIE base *kʷei-, _to pay, atone, compensate_ cognate with Avest. kaenā, O.C.S. cena, Latin pœna.
b/ «Πρόταση» ('protasi _f._), from the Classical feminine noun «πρότασις» ('prŏtāsīs)-->_suggestion, proposition_, in grammar _clause, sentence_. Compound formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «πρὸ» (prŏ)-->_before, in front of_ + verb «τείνω» ('teinō)-->_to stretch, stretch out, strain, spread, extend_ from PIE base *ten-, _to stretch_.
Nr 2, 3, 4, 5 are rendered quite differently (e.g in ancient and modern Greek, feeling: «αίσθημα» ('esθima _n._), is cognate with sense: «αίσθηση» ('esθisi _f._) both from PIE base *awis-dh-, _to perceive physically, grasp_).


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## ThomasK

I should have been clearer, concerning (1): I did not mean asentence in the judicial meaning (that would be _straf_), but in syntax (sentence, structure of words). _[I added something above in the meantime]_

But you do point out something interesting: feeling and sense (I suppose you mean: hearing, seeing, touching, etc.) are linked in Greek, so I gather.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> I should have been clearer, concerning (1): I did not mean asentence in the judicial meaning (that would be _straf_), but in syntax (sentence, structure of words). _[I added something above in the meantime]_


 Then, sentence-->πρόταση (or in ancient Greek, πρότασις).


ThomasK said:


> But you do point out something interesting: feeling and sense (I suppose you mean: hearing, seeing, touching, etc.) are linked in Greek, so I gather.


That is correct, sense & feeling are cognates in Greek (both ancient and modern) and are unrelated with sentence (or its derivatives)


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## ThomasK

I am sorry, I had not read (b) well. I believed your word refers to the structure, but the root is not the same as in syntax, I now see (tattein), whereas our word refers to meaning, to the contents.


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## sakvaka

Finnish is subject to a large amount of variation.

(1) virke, lause 

Related words: virkata (old-fashioned 'speak'), lausua ('recite'). 'Virke' starts with a capital letter and ends in a full stop. 'Lause' is such a part of a sentence that contains a (non-) personal verb. However, outside linguistic terminology, 'lause' is used for entire sentences.

'virke/lause': _Pekka juo vettä, vaikka on väsynyt._
'lause': _Pekka juo vettä_
Another 'lause': _vaikka on väsynyt_

(2) merkitys, (occassionally järki, mieli

merkitä - signify, stand for; mark
järki - reason (opposed with 'tunne', feeling)
mieli - mind

to not make sense - jssk ei olla järkeä, jssk ei olla mieltä, ei nähdä järkeä/mieltä jssk

Ex. _Päätöksesi on aivan järjetön, enkä näe siinä mitään mieltä!_ Your decision is totally insane ('senseless') and it doesn't make any sense to me ('I don't see any sense in it')! 

(3) suunta

The etymologic source is unclear to me. Derived words:

suunnata (kulkunsa) kohti - head for/towards
suunitella - plan, design? [I can't confirm this link without an etymologic dictionary]
suunnistaa - do orienteering

Ex. _Pohjoinen, etelä, itä ja länsi ovat neljä pääilmansuuntaa_. North, south, east and west are the four cardinal directions.

(4) haluttaa, huvittaa

Related:
halu - 'lust' in Germanic languages
huvi - 'amusement', 'pleasure'

Ex. _Minua ei huvita lähteä ulkomaille pääsiäisenä._ I don't feel like going abroad at Easter.

(5) aisti

No clue about the origin. 

Ex. _Koiran hajuaisti on 10 000 kertaa voimakkaampi kuin ihmisen_. A dog's sense of smell is 10,000 times more powerful than that of a man.


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## hui

sakvaka said:


> Related words: virkata *virkkaa *(old-fashioned 'speak')


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## ThomasK

Thanks, S; so no link at all. I had thought there might have been some link between some kind of feeling, and direction, and meaning, but none at all in Finnish, I understand.


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## bibax

Czech:

*smysl* m. (mysl _= mind_, from Proto-Slavic *myt- related to Greek mythos and thymos);

(2) meaning (překroutit _smysl_ slov = to twist the meaning of words);
(3) direction (in physics: _smysl_ otáčení = sense of rotation, _smysl_ síly = sense of the force);
(4) feeling (..., not feeling like doing something) ? 
perhaps 'sense of' ? (_smysl_ pro povinnost = sense of duty, _smysl_ pro spravedlnost = sense of justice, ...);
(5) sense (pět _smyslů_ = five senses: vision, hearing, smell, taste, and touch);


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## ThomasK

So you really have about 4 parallel meanings in that one word. I am amazed. As for (4): I meant something like the German 'Lust', French 'envie'; 'feeling' is a fairly unfortunate translation, I am afraid. ('Zin' can be linked with mind, in Dutch too...)


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## Saluton

Russian:
1) предложение (predlozheniye),
2) значение (znacheniye),
3) направление (napravleniye),
4) настроение (= mood, nastroyeniye),
5) смысл (smysl).

So I don't think we have a word like this. Значение and смысл are sometimes interchangeable, but so are "meaning" and "sense", so it doesn't count.


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## bibax

I think Russian *смысл* (smysl) has also several meanings, at least:

2) смысл  слова = meaning of a word;
3) смысл вращения = sense of rotation ...;


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## ThomasK

I am not so sure they don't count, you know: this interchangeability is a link, I think. I am mainly exploring whether there is reason to assume that the concepts (hope I am using the right word here) are somehow closely connected as well, or something the like. And having a word referring to some of those meanings seems to confirm that viewpoint to some extent.


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## Saluton

bibax said:


> (5) sense (pět _smyslů_ = five senses: vision, hearing, smell, taste, and touch);


Yeah, I forgot. This "sense" is called чувство (chustvo, "feeling") in Russian. The five senses = пять чувств. I also corrected my previous post.


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## ThomasK

Just to say: if anyone feels like giving a brief answer - for example on the link between sense (meaning) and something else (the five senses, ...) - in his/ her  language, that is fine too.


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## Rallino

In Turkish:

(1) sentence - *cümle* (Arabic for: ensemble, I think); also a synonym *tümce* (lit. as a group)
(2) meaning - *anlam* (the root anla- is also the root of the verb _anlamak_ - to understand).
(3) direction - *yön* (this is also the root of the noun _yönetici_ = 'director /manager')
(4) feeling [geen zin om ..., not feeling like doing something) <-- in this sense we use the noun *istek* -wish/desire. _Yapma isteğim yok = I don't have the wish/will to do it._
(5) sense (but mostly zintuig, 'sensorial tool') - *duyu*. (Humans have five senses. - İnsanların beş duyusu vardır.)


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## ThomasK

So no link at all, I guess... Thanks !


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## Dr. Quizá

In Spanish *sentido* is:



ThomasK said:


> (2) meaning,
> (3) direction,
> (5) sense (but mostly _zintuig_, 'sensorial tool').



Plus:

- The past participle of "sentir" (to feel/to sense/to be sorry).
- Heartfelt, deep.
- Easily offended.
- A bunch of meanings of "sense".


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## ThomasK

Great information, but it means both feel and be sorry ? Could you illustrate that using a sentence? 
I guess the other meaning you refer to is sensitive, and therefore easily offended, is that correct?


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## Dr. Quizá

ThomasK said:


> Great information, but it means both feel and be sorry ? Could you illustrate that using a sentence?



Sure. Take into account in that English you can be sorry and you can feel sorry too.

- Lo siento mucho (I feel it a lot) / Cuánto lo siento (~how much do I feel it)= I'm so sorry
- Siento la muerte de tu padre (I feel your father's death) = I'm sorry for your father's dead.
- Lo siento por ti (I feel it for you) = I'm sorry for you.
- ¡Ah, se siente! (~oh, it's felt) = Well, then I'm sorry for you (sarcasm)



> I guess the other meaning you refer to is sensitive, and therefore easily offended, is that correct?



It's more like "touchy".


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## ThomasK

INteresting additions, thanks. (And yes, "touchy" is more precise !)


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> The Dutch word 'zin' has quite some meanings, some of which I mention here without reference to their age :
> (1) sentence [_sentence structure, not punishment_],
> (2) meaning,
> (3) direction,
> (4) feeling [_geen zin om_ ..., not feeling like doing something), and
> (5) sense (but mostly _zintuig_, 'sensorial tool').
> 
> But do you have a word [maybe an old word] in your language that combines several of these meanings? _(I don't mind you mentioning the translation for all though...)_
> 
> _If you're interested in the etymology, there seem to be two conflicting theories: one states that direction is the original meaning, the other one refers to _sentire_, to feel, feeling._


In German:
(1) zin - sentence - _Satz_
(2) zin - meaning - _Sinn_
(3) zin - direction - _Richtung_
(4) zin - feeling [geen zin om..., not feeling like doing something] - _Lust_ [_keine Lust haben, ..._]
(5) zin - sense - _Sinn_ (_Sinnesorgan_ ~ sensory organ, organ of perception)

--> Dutch zin seems to correspond to German Sinn only in (2) and (5):


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