# يوسف



## Omega Force

Hello,

What is the best (the most correct) spelling of the Muslim name يوسف (it’s the name of a prophet): Yousef, Youssef, Youssouf, Yusuf?

Are some of the four spellings incorrect to the point that they lose the meaning of the Muslim name يوسف?


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## Ectab

Yuusuf
long u then short u
the others (yuusif, yousef...) are colloquial.


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## Omega Force

I'm actually thinking of using this name for a baby.
The name "Yuusuf" doesn't exist, so I can't use it. I guess the closest name to "Yuusuf" would be Yusuf. But in my country the name Youssef seems to be more common. So I'm hesitating between Yusuf and Youssef.
I would like to respect the true Arabic name يوسف as much as possible though. Would the name Youssef be too far from يوسف? Would using Youssef lose the meaning of the name يوسف?


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## cherine

Changes in the vowel don't change the meaning of the name (I don't even think many know what the name means because it's not Arabic). Yusuf is the closest to the pronunciation in Standard Arabic, but the most common spelling of يوسف is Youssef. You can use it without worries


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## akhooha

Omega Force said:


> But in my country the name Youssef seems to be more common





cherine said:


> ...but the most common spelling of يوسف is Youssef



For what it's worth, it appears that "Yusuf" is actually the most common in English and in Spanish.
See: 
Yusuf vs Youssef vs Yusef (English)
Yusuf vs Youssef vs Yusef (Spanish)


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## elroy

Ngrams results notwithstanding, in my experience "Yusuf" is not common at all in English.  I've never seen it and it looks really weird.


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## abdulwahid

There are a lot of more or less famous muslims named Yusuf (Hamza Yusuf, Yusuf Islam, Sami Yusuf).


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## elroy

In response to a now deleted comment about the spelling "Youssef": The "e" in the final syllable has nothing to do with the English version of the name.  The _Arabic_ name is pronounced "yuusef" in many (most?) dialects, and is generally spelled "Yousef" or "Youssef" to reflect the pronunciation (I'm more familiar with "Yousef," but based on Cherine's post perhaps "Youssef" is more common in Egypt).  "Ou" is generally the most common way to represent "uu."  My own last name has that sound and I spell it "ou."


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## akhooha

elroy said:


> Ngrams results notwithstanding, in my experience "Yusuf" is not common at all in English.  I've never seen it and it looks really weird.


I'm really surprised that you've _neve_r seen "Yusuf". In my experience (and, of course, everyone's experiences are necessarily different) I'd say that I've seen both "Yusuf" and "Yusef" just about equally.
As far as Ngrams go, from what I understand, Ngrams are based on frequency analysis of print-published sources found on books.google.com. 
Another way (although maybe a little less authoritatively) to get an idea of frequency is a simple google search which will show frequency of general internet usage:
"Yusuf" (About 109,000,000 results)
"Yusef" (About 3,580,000 results)


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## elroy

"Yusuf" may be used by non-Arab Muslims.  "Yousef" (with one "s") is the version I've seen most commonly used by Arabs.  I've never seen an _Arab_ use "Yusuf."


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## akhooha

elroy said:


> It has nothing to do with the English version of the name!


Actually, it has everything to do with the English (or Spanish) version of the name. If you're going to use Roman letters, you are no longer writing it in Arabic and you need to follow the conventions of the language you're transliterating it into. If I understand Omega Force correctly, he is concerned about transliterating it into Spanish, he is not asking how a Palestinian or an Egyptian would transliterate it in their own dialects.


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## elroy

What are you talking about?  I'm saying that the choice of "e" has nothing to do with how the name is pronounced in English.  This was in response to a now deleted comment by abdulwahid, where he said that "Youssef" was closer to the English pronunciation, which was a total red herring.  The reason "e" is used is because that reflects the _Arabic_ pronunciation in many dialects.

Cherine and I have given Omega Force appropriate answers about how to transliterate the name in _English_, which of course respects English spelling conventions.  "Transliterating in our own dialect" doesn't make sense.  In our own dialects, we spell in Arabic.

"Yusuf" may reflect the "official" MSA pronunciation, but in practice many Arabs pronounce the name "yuusef" in both dialect and MSA.  "Yusuf" looks very strange and like I said is probably mostly used by non-Arab Muslims who don't have an intuition for what sounds natural in Arabic.


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## akhooha

elroy said:


> "Yusuf" may be used by non-Arab Muslims.  "Yousef" (with one "s") is the version I've seen most commonly used by Arabs.  I've never seen an _Arab_ use "Yusuf."


You might want to check out:
Yusuf Idris, Yusuf Sibai, Abdul Rahman Yusuf, Yusuf al-Qaid, Tawfiq Yusuf 'Awwad, Al-Hajjaj bin Yusuf, etc, etc.
If I'm not wrong, I believe they are all considered _Arabs_.


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## elroy

I said "may be."  Also, who's to say those people chose those transliterations themselves?  The fact remains that in everyday life, the version with "e" is the most commonly used - at least in Palestine, Egypt, and Iraq - by which I mean that that's how يوسف's in those countries are actually called.  So ultimately it depends on what Omega Force is interested in: a spelling that reflects the everyday pronunciation in many countries, or one that reflects an official pronunciation that isn't (or is rarely) used by Arabs in everyday life?  Honestly, what matters is how Omega Force actually intends to pronounce the name; I would go with whichever spelling reflects the pronunciation he plans to use.


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## Hemza

I think "youssouf" (the French spelling of "yusuf") is used a lot in West Africa instead of "Youssef" which is more used in North Africa (Of course, it's a simplification).


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## abdulwahid

If you are looking for a translitteration that fits the Quranic reading then I would go for  Yusuf or Youssuf.


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## cherine

Sorry if I'm repeating myself or someone else, but let me say this again:
Yusuf is correct and commonly used in academic transliteration. I don't see a reason why you wouldn't use it. And as a number among us said, it is the closest to the standard pronunciation. Youssef, Yousef, Yusef reflect the colloquial pronunciation.
So, again, it is up to you @Omega Force to chose between the spelling and pronunciation closer to colloquial or the ones closer to standard. Either would be correct, acceptable and understood as referring to يوسف.


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## Ihsiin

Clearly, the transliteration depends on the dialect from which you're transliterating and the language into which you're transliterating. Were I to name a baby I would spell it Yusif. I suppose in English names, however, it is more common to transliterate the long _ū _with "ou" (because for some reason "oo" looks silly). A spelling which would correlate both with common conventions in English and pronunciation in Classical Arabic would therefore be Yousuf, but if we're interested in common conventions in English why not just got with Joseph, which is the same name after all? Of course this is for English; I do not know the situation when it comes to transliterating in Spanish.


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## elroy

The thing is, though, that most of the time Arabs transliterate their English names based on how they're actually pronounced in everyday life.  For example, my aunt's name is نجمة and she spells it "Nijmeh" in English because that's how we pronounce it in Palestinian Arabic.  Quite frankly, unless you're doing Qur'anic recitation most Arabs could care less about MSA pronunciations of names.  Even on the news and such, names are generally pronounced as in colloquial.  I've seriously *never* heard a يوسف referred to as "Yuusuf," and that's a very common name!  Even in the Bible, it's vowelized يُوسُف but when people read the Bible out loud they read it يُوسِف.

So yes, we can give a simple answer like "It's يُوسُف in MSA and يُوسِف in colloquial; pick one," or we can explain the nuances.  I chose to do the latter.

By the way, يُوسِف is actually closer to the original Hebrew pronunciation, which is יוסף (pronounced "yosef").  We see this reflected in other versions of the name, like "Jos*e*ph" and "Jos*é*."  Why it ended up being يُوسُف in MSA is a mystery to me.  Vowel harmony/coarticulation effects maybe?


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## Ihsiin

You are right, but not completely. Of course it's true that no one pronounces the name as يوسُف in common speech, but it's not true that Arabs always, or even necessarily often, transliterate their names as they are pronounced. For example, my own is spelt Hussain, but is pronounced something like _ħsiyn _(hence my screen-name) and that's how I'm called by others (apart from non-Arabs, obviously). As far as يوسف is concerned, while it would be strange to pronounce it classically in normal speech, I don't think a transliteration which follows classical pronunciation is very strange, nor one that follows vernacular pronunciation. I would personally choose the latter, but then this would beg the question of which vernacular pronunciation to choose from. Of course I would choose my own (thus my personal choice of Yusif), but for someone who doesn't have native Arabic the question might not be so trivial. In this case a transliteration of the classical pronunciation might be more appropriate.


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## elroy

Yes, of course there are exceptions, but in this particular case, again, I've _never_ seen an actual Arab by the name of يوسف transliterate _their own name_ with a "u" in the final syllable, and this is a very common name used all over the Arab world.

Ultimately, though, I think this is like putting the cart before the horse.  The _first_ question Omega Force should ask himself is what he actually wants to name the baby, i.e. how he wants to actually pronounce the baby's name.  Once that's determined, then he can just choose the spelling that reflects the pronunciation.


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## Ihsiin

elroy said:


> I've _never_ seen an actual Arab by the name of يوسف transliterate _their own name_ with a "u" in the final syllable



I have - perhaps we've just had different experiences.

But yeah, you're right, this all down to Omega Force in the end of the day. I hope we haven't scared him off.


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## Omega Force

Thanks everyone for all your very helpful messages.

But actually I don't speak Spanish (I don't know why that's written below my username), but French and English.

In French the form Youssef is the most common form.

I asked this question to know if English people would think that Youssef is an inferior form, because in English the form Yusuf seemed much more popular. But if I understood correctly, the form Youssef would also be fine in English.


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## Interprete

I agree with Omega Force, I had always thought that Yusuf was the anglicized version while Youssef was the French one (or at least influenced by French), otherwise how would you explain that the 'oo' sound is transcribed in Youssef as 'ou', which is typical of French since it's pretty much the only language that pronounces the o+u combination as 'oo' and not as a diphtong like most other languages (including English) would?


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## elroy

"Ou" is commonly used in English to spell foreign names.  It's actually more common than "oo."  As I said, I spell my own last name with "ou" instead and not "oo" - and that's not a French influence. 

"Yousef" is a very common spelling in English.


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## Interprete

elroy said:


> "Ou" is commonly used in English to spell foreign names.  It's actually more common than "oo."


Not trying to contradict but, what other foreign names can you think of which are spelled with 'ou' without that being influenced by French?


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## elroy

Mahmoud, Ra'ouf, Nour,...  Pretty much any name that has a long "uu" sound.

Last semester I had a student whose name was العنود and she spelled it "Alanoud."  She's from Kuwait so the possibility of a French influence is ruled out.


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## Interprete

But then why is this kind of transcription called Franco ?


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## elroy

First of all, I don't know who calls it that and secondly, so what?  I assume whoever calls it that does so because "ou" represents that sound in French.  That doesn't mean it's not used by non-French speakers or those who are not influenced by French.  I've already demonstrated that this spelling is widely used by speakers who are not influenced by French, so I'm not quite sure why are belaboring this point.


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## Interprete

Egyptians call it franco, when when I looked it up I found out that it is also called franco in Saudi Arabia (see here). And I'm not sure you have demonstrated that such spellings are not influenced by French... with all the French loanwords and the persistence of a French-speaking upper-class up until recently in some traditionally English-speaking Arab countries, and the obvious influence said upper-class would have in shaping local habits, I doubt that using 'ou' to transcribe the long vowel 'û' is a local invention.
I was 'belaboring this point' because I found it interesting and wanted to bring my own perspective into this, like you and others have had an opportunity to do.


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## elroy

Interprete, it's used by Arabs from all over the Arab world, and it's used in the United States.  How can you continue to postulate a French influence in every case? 

"Ou" represents this sound in some English words, too: "you," "uncouth," "routine," "tourist," and probably others as well. 

I think if you want to argue that this spelling is due to a French influence in every case, the onus is on you to provide evidence of this.  French has had a large influence in the former French colonies of North Africa and in the countries of the former French mandate, but not in the rest of the Arab world, and certainly not in the United States. 

North Africans use "ch" to represent ش, while other Arabs use "sh."  Since "ch" is limited to North Africa (and maybe Syria and Lebanon; I'm not sure of this), we can reasonably argue that "ch" is due to a French influence.  But "ou" is used by Arabs who use "sh," and like I said, by Americans who of course use "sh" as well.  Actually, my own last name is a case in point, since it includes both ش and "ū," and I spell it with "sh" and "ou."


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## Interprete

elroy, I'm not sure why you see an argumentative sparring contest here. There is no onus on me to prove anything, and you're absolutely free to do whatever you want with my opinion, which last time I checked I was still allowed to express freely.


elroy said:


> Interprete, it's used by Arabs from all over the Arab world, and it's used in the United States. How can you continue to postulate a French influence in every case?


Because Arabs talk to each other, and they also migrate, so it's only normal that what probably started as a French-influenced transcription took root and then gained ground.


elroy said:


> "Ou" represents this sound in some English words, too: "you," "uncouth," "routine," "tourist," and probably others as well.


It's good to mention a few exceptions that confirm the rule but I don't see how a dozen words or so can explain such usage.



elroy said:


> French has had a large influence in the former French colonies of North Africa and in the countries of the former French mandate, but not in the rest of the Arab world, and certainly not in the United States.


Exactly, and how many countries does that include? Morocco, Algeria, Mauritania, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Egypt... What's left, aside from other countries that have been influenced by the former through TV, media, litterature and what not?



elroy said:


> North Africans use "ch" to represent ش, while other Arabs use "sh." Since "ch" is limited to North Africa (and maybe Syria and Lebanon; I'm not sure of this), we can reasonably argue that "ch" is due to a French influence.


That's factually incorrect, a case in point being Lebanon, where people can write chou as much as they can write shu, which understandably is then likely to spread to neighboring countries even if they don't speak French. That was my whole point, people communicate, to the point that they might forget the origin of the words and/or spellings they use. An example that you used, ironically, is routine, which is an entirely French word that was transposed as is into English (and the 'ou' in routine only reflects that, by the way), but people forget that.
But again, I felt like discussing this, not engaging in a series of disputes and rebuttals, so I'll leave it at that.


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## elroy

Palestine and Egypt were not French mandates.  As far as I know the former French colonies and Syria and Lebanon have not historically had a great media influence on other Arab countries.  I included Syria and Lebanon in my comment on "ch."

_Hypothetically_, this spelling could have arisen in areas with a French influence and spread to the rest of the Arab world; all I'm saying is that given the fact that we don't see this with other things ("ch" vs. "sh") and that this spelling is also found in the United States, that theory seems unlikely.

It is indeed striking that although in English "ou" is used much less frequently than other vowels or vowel combinations to represent this sound, "ou" is nonetheless used _very_ frequently in American English to transliterate foreign names with this sound - far more commonly than "oo," for example.  I'm not sure why this is the case.


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## Jamal31

I would say 'Yousuf' with regular characters and 'Yūsuf' with 'special characters'.


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