# Mandarin Chinese and Thai cognates?



## ho chi feen

I've been thinking about this recently, because I keep seeing words that seem similar or very close, but between two very different and wholly unrelated (to the best of my knowledge, at least) languages.

An obvious one would be mao/maew for cat, except that that's clearly got an onomatopeiac derivation, so it can't be counted. But in some of the basic numbers- san/sam for 3; si/see for 4; ba/bhet for 8; shi/sip for 10. Okay, so maybe some of those are a little bit tenuous, but the sound pattern seems to correlate somewhat.

Then, two separate animal names- xiang/chang for elephant, and ma/ma for horse- virtually identical.

I'm new to studying Chinese, and only have some basic conversational Thai, but has anyone with a greater knowledge of these languages spotted any similar examples?


----------



## palomnik

I'm not that familiar with Thai, but I when I was reviewing the language a year or two ago I was struck by the similarity between the words for the numbers and the same words in Chinese; actually, they resemble the numbers in Cantonese more than Mandarin:

Thai: neung song saam sii haa hok jet paet kao sip
Cantonese: yat yi sam sei ng look tsut baat kao shup

(Forgive my Cantonese transliteration, foreros; I make no claim to expertise in the subject, I just know how the words sound in general).

The resemblance goes even deeper when you consider that 20 in Thai is yii-sip (yi-shup in Cantonese).

I've tried researching this and I come up with nothing, although I'm certain somebody has addressed it at some time or another. I can only provide two explanations for this, neither one of which is very satisfactory:

The numbers are similar because the languages are related to each other. Possible, but the link between Thai-kadai languages and Sino-Tibetan languages is generally not accepted any more.

The other possibility is that they were borrowed. This is not so far fetched when you consider that Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese have all borrowed at least some numbers and/or number patterns from Chinese. The problem with this theory is that Thailand - unlike Japan, Korea and Vietnam - is not really within the traditional Chinese cultural sphere. The only other explanation for borrowing I can think of is that the Chinese dominated commerce in the area, and the higher numbers were borrowed from Chinese.

I'd be really interested if anybody out there can enlighten us on this further.


----------



## ho chi feen

palomnik said:


> I'm not that familiar with Thai, but I when I was reviewing the language a year or two ago I was struck by the similarity between the words for the numbers and the same words in Chinese; actually, they resemble the numbers in Cantonese more than Mandarin:
> 
> Thai: neung song saam sii haa hok jet paet kao sip
> Cantonese: yat yi sam sei ng look tsut baat kao shup
> 
> (Forgive my Cantonese transliteration, foreros; I make no claim to expertise in the subject, I just know how the words sound in general).
> 
> The resemblance goes even deeper when you consider that 20 in Thai is yii-sip (yi-shup in Cantonese).
> 
> I've tried researching this and I come up with nothing, although I'm certain somebody has addressed it at some time or another. I can only provide two explanations for this, neither one of which is very satisfactory:
> 
> The numbers are similar because the languages are related to each other. Possible, but the link between Thai-kadai languages and Sino-Tibetan languages is generally not accepted any more.
> 
> The other possibility is that they were borrowed. This is not so far fetched when you consider that Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese have all borrowed at least some numbers and/or number patterns from Chinese. The problem with this theory is that Thailand - unlike Japan, Korea and Vietnam - is not really within the traditional Chinese cultural sphere. The only other explanation for borrowing I can think of is that the Chinese dominated commerce in the area, and the higher numbers were borrowed from Chinese.
> 
> I'd be really interested if anybody out there can enlighten us on this further.



That's fascinating. Much more resemblance with those Cantonese numbers. You're absolutely correct in saying that Thailand has traditionally not been in the Chinese sphere of influence, drawing it's cultural leads from Southern India instead. And yes, I've read too that the link between the language families is not expected. Perhaps one explanation may lie in previous cultural proximity- as I understand, the Thais developed their culture and language in Yunan, modern China. From their they migrated into Laos, and formed their earliest kingdoms centred around Laos and Northern Thailand, before spreading out to the east and the south. Lao (Thai's sister language to this day) and many small languages- such as that of the Shan people in rural Burma, and other small hill-tribe groupings as far east as Vietnam- in addition to groupings in China today, especially the Zhuang, who number some 14m, mostly in Guanxi are related. I guess its possible that some level of exchange in the distant past could brought this about.


----------



## palomnik

I ran across this in a Russian website (http://www.asiat.ru/thailand.shtml?/culture/vvv).  They don't appear to cite any authority, though:

Вообще тайский язык похож на китаский. По данным лигвисты выявили сотни одинаковых и похожих слов. Таким образом сказалось практически тысячелетнее соседство народов.

_In general, the Thai language resembles Chinese.  Based on data, linguists have identified hundreds of identical and similar words.  This is a result of the thousand-year proximity of the two peoples._

I'm still not convinced that this is enough to explain the considerable similarity between the two number systems.


----------



## Flaminius

palomnik said:


> The other possibility is that they were borrowed. This is not so far fetched when you consider that Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese have all borrowed at least some numbers and/or number patterns from Chinese. The problem with this theory is that Thailand - unlike Japan, Korea and Vietnam - is not really within the traditional Chinese cultural sphere. The only other explanation for borrowing I can think of is that the Chinese dominated commerce in the area, and the higher numbers were borrowed from Chinese.


Similarities in numbers between Chinese and Thai stop at the second figure.  Here are "hundred" and "thousand" in the two languages.  I am unable to see similarities; at least in the order that was apparent in 1-10/20.

Hundred - Ch. 百 (Mandarin băi bó, Hakka bak7, [Cantonese mak6]); Th. rɔːi
Thousand - Ch. 千 (Mandarin qiān, Hakka cien1 cen1, Cantonese cin1); Th. pʰan
Source: Chinese and Thai

Similarities of these languages are not limited in lexical categories.  I find similarities in modal auxiliaries striking.  Classic Chinese (雅言) used 將 (Mandarin _jiāng_) for future/intention (will), 當 (dāng) for obligation (must), 得 (dĕi) for potential (can).  Thai equivalents are จะ (cha), ต้อง (tɔːŋ), ได้ (daːi).  If they are not evidence to cognate languages, then they suggest that the languages influenced each other quite a long time ago.


----------



## mal67

The Thai words for hundred and thousand are very similar (almost identical) to the words in Khmer (ruoy, poan).  My guess is that they either came into both languages from Pali, or originated in Mon-Khmer and entered into Thai that way.  Just a guess, though.

As for the Thai - Chinese connection, there are a number of other words that are very similar, especially if you look at Cantonese instead of Mandarin.  Chicken (gai/kai) is one, and I remember finding others but can't recall them right now.


----------



## Mugi

> 將 (Mandarin _jiāng_) for future/intention (will), 當 (dāng) for obligation (must), 得 (dĕi) for potential (can).


Could you give some simple examples of each of these?


----------



## Flaminius

Okay, *Mugi*.

不知老之将至
Don't know that old-age is about to come.

当惜寸陰
Be jealous of even one second.

荘不得撃
項荘 could not stab 劉邦.

Thai examples are (sorry, I am just typing off a QWERT keyboard);
Chan *cha* bai tii Krung Thep krab/ka.
I am going to go to Bangkok.

Khun *tong* phut paasaa-Thai krab/ka.
You have to speak Thai.

Chan kin muu mei *dai* krab/ka.
I cannot eat pork.


----------



## Hulalessar

When linguists encounter two languages with features in common they ask (a) is this because they are part of a sprachbund or (b) because they are genetically related. They will only conclude that the languages are genetically related if, by applying the comparative method, they can relate them to a common ancestor, whether known or reconstructed.

Whilst some 40 odd years ago every book I read suggested that Thai was part of a Sino-Tibetan language family, linguists are not know convinced that any genetic relationship can be shown between Thai and Chinese (or for that matter between Tibetan and Chinese) by using the comparative method.


Similarities in vocabulary necessarily stand out but, whilst the comparative method starts by comparing word lists, taken on their own, they are probably the least reliable indicator of genetic relationship since languages borrow words from each other.


----------



## palomnik

Flaminius said:


> Similarities in numbers between Chinese and Thai stop at the second figure. Here are "hundred" and "thousand" in the two languages. I am unable to see similarities; at least in the order that was apparent in 1-10/20.
> 
> Hundred - Ch. 百 (Mandarin băi bó, Hakka bak7, [Cantonese mak6]); Th. rɔːi
> Thousand - Ch. 千 (Mandarin qiān, Hakka cien1 cen1, Cantonese cin1); Th. pʰan
> Source: Chinese and Thai
> 
> Similarities of these languages are not limited in lexical categories. I find similarities in modal auxiliaries striking. Classic Chinese (雅言) used 將 (Mandarin _jiāng_) for future/intention (will), 當 (dāng) for obligation (must), 得 (dĕi) for potential (can). Thai equivalents are จะ (cha), ต้อง (tɔːŋ), ได้ (daːi). If they are not evidence to cognate languages, then they suggest that the languages influenced each other quite a long time ago.


 
Flaminius, I agree that Chinese words like 將, 當, and 得 are almost certainly cognates between Chinese and Thai.

But the resemblance in the numbers from 1 to 100 with Cantonese is indeed astounding, and I don't think it can be explained as a question of cognates.  The words are nearly identical except for the numbers one and two.  They resemble each other too much, and numbers are among the words that change most over the course of time.  While I have nothing to back it up, I feel that the evidence points to borrowing of the numbers from Cantonese some time in the last couple of hundred years.


----------



## Flaminius

> The words are nearly identical except for the numbers one and two. They resemble each other too much, and numbers are among the words that change most over the course of time. While I have nothing to back it up, I feel that the evidence points to borrowing of the numbers from Cantonese some time in the last couple of hundred years.


*
palomnik*, perhaps we have a clue, however tiny it is, to conjecture on the period or the source language of the borrowing of the numbers from a Chinese language.

Here is a list of numbers from 1 to 10 in Thai and Cantonese adapted your #2 _supra_ with modifications.

Thai: *et* song/*yii* saam sii haa hok jet paet kao sip
Cantonese: yat yi sam sei ng look tsut baat kao shup

Thai _et_ is used as "one" in numbers larger than 10 (but only used in the first figure).  I took _neung_ out because it is clearly non-Chinese.  Similarly, _yii_ is "two" that makes twenty, literally two-tens.  _Song_, according to several textbooks I am quoting from my memory, may be equivalent of Chinese 雙.  Does Cantonese have two words for "two" similar to the Thai ones?  I realise Mandarin has 二 (_er_) and 両 (_liang_) for "two" but conditions that demand one over the other differ from those of Thai.


----------



## palomnik

Flaminius said:


> *palomnik*, perhaps we have a clue, however tiny it is, to conjecture on the period or the source language of the borrowing of the numbers from a Chinese language.
> 
> Here is a list of numbers from 1 to 10 in Thai and Cantonese adapted your #2 _supra_ with modifications.
> 
> Thai: *et* song/*yii* saam sii haa hok jet paet kao sip
> Cantonese: yat yi sam sei ng look tsut baat kao shup
> 
> Thai _et_ is used as "one" in numbers larger than 10 (but only used in the first figure). I took _neung_ out because it is clearly non-Chinese. Similarly, _yii_ is "two" that makes twenty, literally two-tens. _Song_, according to several textbooks I am quoting from my memory, may be equivalent of Chinese 雙. Does Cantonese have two words for "two" similar to the Thai ones? I realise Mandarin has 二 (_er_) and 両 (_liang_) for "two" but conditions that demand one over the other differ from those of Thai.


 
Flaminius, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of Cantonese, I can't find an example of two different words for two, outside of the parallel situation in Mandarin (_yi_ and _leung_ in Cantonese).

However, other languages, more specifically Vietnamese, have a similar dichotomy.  The native Vietnamese words for 1, 2 and 4 are 
_một, hai _and_ bốn_, but to form the words for "first", "second" and "fourth" it uses _nhất, nhì, tư_ (it also uses _tư_ to form the words for Wednesday and April); these are all borrowings from Cantonese.  For that matter, there are Vietnamese versions of all the Chinese numbers (like Japanese _ichi, ni, san_...) but the other ones have fallen into disuse, except in some combinations that were borrowed directly from Chinese, e.g., Vietnamese 
_nhất-định_, Chinese 一定, ngũ-kinh, 五经.


----------



## Mugi

Flaminius, why should 得 be pronounced dĕi here (as opposed to dé)?
Unfortunately I don't know enough about classical Chinese and even less about Thai to be able to form a valid opinion on your assertion, but I would have expected the Thai 'dai' to have had a '-k' (or possibly '-t') final, if it were related to 得. I would have also expected an '-ng' final on 'cha'. But I guess these links could date from pre-Han times ...

Thai 'song' is almost certainly cognate with, or a direct borrowing of, 雙. Although I'm not aware of any Chinese dialects that employ 雙 in a systematic way in lieu of 二 or 兩.



> but to form the words for "first", "second" and "fourth" it uses _nhất, nhì, tư_


In fact, "first" and "fourth" are the only two that must use the Chinese borrowings - all other ordinals up to ten can be formed by using either native Vietnamese numerals or Sino-Vietnamese numerals. That said, the former is much more common an in some situations (e.g. "Monday" = Thứ hai), the only possibility.



> these are all borrowings from Cantonese


 It's probably better to say "proto-Cantonese" - the borrowings would have occured between one and two thousand years ago, at which time the relevant Chinese language(s) differed significantly from what Cantonese (at least the 廣府片) is today.

For those who read Chinese, you might find the following book of interest (I've only just started reading it myself, so unfortunately at present can't expound beyond the brief summary below):
汉泰关系词的时间层次 (龚群虎 著; 复旦大学出版社, 2002)
The author outlines 3 major strata of Chinese-related words in Thai. The first dates back to Old Chinese/上古中文 (Han Dynasty and earlier/at least 2000 years ago) and points to a possible common ancester - OC reconstructions are compared with Proto-Tai/古侗台 reconstructions. The second stratum, comprising the most words, dates to Middle Chinese. The words in this stratum are clearly borrowings. The final stratum comprises of relatively recent borrowings from the Teochew/Swatow (潮州, 汕頭 - 潮汕話) dialect. Although this last stratum consists of several hundred words, I believe their usage is often restricted to Bangkok (and even Chinatown). Also, whereas words in the first two strata are indistinguishable from native Thai words to the untrained eye/ear, words from the third stratum are usually easily identifiable as "Chinese" loanwords.

I'll try an post again (if there's any interest) when I've read more.


----------



## palomnik

Mugi said:


> For those who read Chinese, you might find the following book of interest (I've only just started reading it myself, so unfortunately at present can't expound beyond the brief summary below):
> 汉泰关系词的时间层次 (龚群虎 著; 复旦大学出版社, 2002)
> The author outlines 3 major strata of Chinese-related words in Thai. The first dates back to Old Chinese/上古中文 (Han Dynasty and earlier/at least 2000 years ago) and points to a possible common ancester - OC reconstructions are compared with Proto-Tai/古侗台 reconstructions. The second stratum, comprising the most words, dates to Middle Chinese. The words in this stratum are clearly borrowings. The final stratum comprises of relatively recent borrowings from the Teochew/Swatow (潮州, 汕頭 - 潮汕話) dialect. Although this last stratum consists of several hundred words, I believe their usage is often restricted to Bangkok (and even Chinatown). Also, whereas words in the first two strata are indistinguishable from native Thai words to the untrained eye/ear, words from the third stratum are usually easily identifiable as "Chinese" loanwords.
> 
> I'll try an post again (if there's any interest) when I've read more.


 
That's really interesting, Mugi, and I'd be really interested in finding out especially where the Thai numbers come from when you get to that and if the book spends any time on that point.  I'd like to read the book myself, but I don't think I'd ever find a copy in the area where I'm living now.


----------



## Flaminius

Mugi said:
			
		

> Flaminius, why should 得 be pronounced dĕi here (as opposed to dé)?


I didn't know that 得 can be pronounced in two ways.  As you say, dé is the Mandarin pronunciation of the potential auxiliary.  Sorry.


----------



## ho chi feen

mal67 said:


> As for the Thai - Chinese connection, there are a number of other words that are very similar, especially if you look at Cantonese instead of Mandarin.  Chicken (gai/kai) is one, and I remember finding others but can't recall them right now.



Good spot.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

mal67 said:


> The Thai words for hundred and thousand are very similar (almost identical) to the words in Khmer (ruoy, poan). My guess is that they either came into both languages from Pali, or originated in Mon-Khmer and entered into Thai that way. Just a guess, though.


 
You are quite right about big numbers borrowed from Khmer as we can add ten thousand and hundred thousand : "moen" and "saen". They don't come from Pali ( see fom one to ten here ) 
   or Mon (100 klom, 1000 langèm/ngèm, 10,000 la', 100,000 kat ) :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Môn_(langue)

So these words are probably borrowed directly fom the previous inhabitants of the areas where they moved in and set up in th 13th century,adopting  the Khmer script to their language around the same time.
Thai is said to have around one third of its vocabulary coming from Pali-Sanskrit or Mon-Khmer. So I am very  surprised to discover this Chinese influences as well.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

Maybe this site could be relevant to this thread ; it gives a list of numerous forms of numbers from one to ten , of which a lot are used in China and Southern Asia.
Another study can be found here : Guillaume Jacques presents some of his research aimed at establishing phonological laws in Sino-Tibetan and Tai-Kadai languages.
I'll sum up two points :
1- As most Western linguists he claimes that Tai-Kadai ( or: Kra-Dai ) languages are not genetically related to the Sino-Tibetan family, the first group having clusters and taking into account the length of vowels ; only Yue dialects which were in touch with Tai-Kadai distinguish long and short vowels.
2- As for the vocabulary the Australasian substratum is restricted, but common to various languages of the family, consisting of a core vocabulary, mainly related to agriculture. South-Western languages have a lot of borrowings from Khmer and all of them borrowed  a lot of words from Chinese of various periods including Archaic Chinese.


----------



## vince

Does the Tai-Kadai language family lack a native number system?

It seems that languages like Japanese and Korean have both a Chinese-based one and an unrelated native one.

But it seems that Thai's non-Chinese-based number system is an Indo-European-based (possibly Sanskrit-based?) system. And Thai is clearly not an Indo-European language.

What happened to Thai's native number system?


----------



## palomnik

vince said:


> But it seems that Thai's non-Chinese-based number system is an Indo-European-based (possibly Sanskrit-based?) system. And Thai is clearly not an Indo-European language.


 
I'm not too sure what you mean, Vince.  Can you give some examples?  Are you talking about the written numbers?


----------



## Pivra

palomnik said:


> I'm not too sure what you mean, Vince. Can you give some examples? Are you talking about the written numbers?


 
no, in Thai when we want to combine words, we use Sanskrit numbers, which is another set. The names of the tones in Thai are also in Sanskrit.

for example, 25 in poetic Thai is Panchavingsti -vingsti is from vimshti in Sanskrit means 20

Ekaraj, means independence... it is formed using two pirated words,

Ekam- one... Raja- King

King Ekadashna (read E-ka-tat) was said to only have 1 eye, Eka-1 Dashna-vision

Bilateral is Dvibhagi (ทวิภาคี, even tho i say dvibhag) 

the flag of Thailand is called Trirong (the Three Colors)

a Square (as in a plaza) is called a Chaturat

king Rama V is often called Benjamindra or Benjamabapis from Sanskrit Benja- is from Sanskrit Panja- 

7 habbits (not the book) of a good person in Thai culture is called Sattapurus Satta- 

a week in Thai is called Sapdah from Sappa- alternative to Satta- means 7 and dah-is day

the posture of self postration with 8 spots of the body touching the floor is called Asdangapradith from Astha- means 8 
the 9 most precious stones in Thai culture are called Navaratna 
etc etc

Ravanna, the villian in Ramanyana is called Dasakantha (read Dosakan in Thai) because he has 10 faces, and Kantha is neck in Thai

10 qualities of a good king is called Dasapit-rajadharma

Ekadasarath (read E-ka-to-sa-rot) means 11 chariots

a decade is called Dasawat in Thai... means 10-turnings

a century is called Satawat means 100-turnings

a millenia is called Sahasawat.. meanings 1000-turnings

etc etc

so we have 2 sets one is Indo European and one is ... most likely "Chinese"

this is our written number

๑ ๒ ๓ ๔ ๕ ๖ ๗ ๘ ๙ ๐

only ZERO is Indo European in both sets.. Shunya (read sun in Thai -ya is silent)

About our native numbers, in Lanna and Isaan 1 is ai 2 is yii 10 is jab... i cant speak their languages, but i am sure if you look at Ahom, Shan or Lanna closely u might find them... after all we already have 2 foreign sets lol, if i were to pick i like the IE set more because the Chinese set cannot be used with Thai words to form larger words.....they will just sound weird...


----------



## palomnik

Pivra, that's amazing!  I wasn't aware of any of that.  Thanks for the clarification!

Are you saying that Thai doesn't make any use at all of native numbers?


----------

