# er ist größer als ich / mich



## Nickle Sydney

Hallo.

Ich möchte Bescheid wissen, wie man die Idee korrekt sagen kann. 

1) Er ist größer als ich (bin).
2) Er ist größer als mich.

Vielen Dank im Voraus.


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## Hutschi

Boris Tatarenko said:


> Hallo.
> 
> Ich möchte Bescheid wissen, wie man die Idee korrekt sagen kann.
> 
> 1) Er ist größer als ich (bin).
> 2) Er ist größer als mich.
> 
> Vielen Dank im Voraus.



Er ist größer als ich. (Standard, neutral)
Er ist größer*,* als ich es bin. (Mehr Redundanz, ich würde hier noch "es" einschieben, wie ich es hier gemacht habe.)

Edit: Komma eingefügt.


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## Gernot Back

Weder ist _than _im Englischen noch _als _im Deutschen eine Präposition!
Insofern ist es also auch im Englischen falsch zu sagen.

_*He is taller than me._​
Than - Wikipedia


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## Perseas

Gernot Back said:


> Weder ist _than _im Englischen noch _als _im Deutschen eine Präposition!


_Als_ ist eine Konjunktion. Aber ich verstehe folgendes Schema nicht ganz gut. Wo in den Beispielsätzen ist die *Präposition*?

_als
Grammatik Konjunktion
...
II.
im Vergleich
1.
mit *Präposition*
a)
nach Komparativen
Beispiele:
 er ist größer als ich, größer, als ich gedacht habe
sie ist nicht älter als du_
.....
DWDS              –                als


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## bearded

Ich verstehe es auch nicht, hege jedoch den Verdacht, dass DWDS unter 'Präposition' hier etwas Anderes versteht als was normalerweise gemeint wird (vielleicht 'vorheriger Ausdruck'..? Etymologisch heißt Prä-position 'vorherige Stellung').


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> (vielleicht 'vorheriger Ausdruck'..? Etymologisch heißt Prä-position 'vorherige Stellung').


Schließlich muss Deine Erklärung richtig sein.


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## djweaverbeaver

@Gernot Back,  even your Wikipedia link posted as proof contradicts your statement that *than *as a preposition is _falsch _in English.  Did you overlook even the first sentence?  The debate about the category to which one should ascribe _than _is centuries old, and there are convincing arguments on both sides of it.

_He is taller *than me*_ is arguably the most normal/common way of saying it in modern English.  Only the most careful, if not most pedantic, of native speakers would insist upon saying _He is taller *than I*_ in speech.  If the pronouns are reversed,  I'd say the prepositional form is even more common in speech:  _I am taller *than him*_ >>>> _I am taller *than he*_.

I would only use *than I/he* in the above-mentioned sentences in very formal written contexts.  Even then, I would probably rephrase the utterances somehow to avoid controversy.  Please take a look at the Usage Notes in other *American Heritage* and *Oxford *dictionaries.


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## Gernot Back

djweaverbeaver said:


> @Gernot Back, even your Wikipedia link posted as proof contradicts your statement that *than *as a preposition is _falsch _in English. Did you overlook even the first sentence?


Yes, I did see all that, but still: I don't see a reason how one could seriously classify _than _as a preposition! There is simply no functional evidence of it being anything else than a _conjunction_. If the only argument consists in the pure *formal *fact that quite a lot of native speakers use _THAN _with the oblique case (although they shouldn't do so when comparing two subjects), all these dictionaries might as well start to list _AND _as a _preposition _instead of a conjunction since so many native speakers say _you and *me*_, even when used as subject.

That would be equally absurd and none of the above mentioned dictionaries does that, not even Wikipedia!


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## Perseas

_


Gernot Back said:



			... (although they shouldn't do so when comparing two subjects)...
		
Click to expand...

He is taller than me._
Here the oblique case is not a subject.

This construction in English is not regarded as wrong:


> _ which lexicographers and usage commentators regard as prepositional use and as standard_ ...


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> Here the oblique case is not a subject.


Which complement (Objekt) could it be in your opinion? Is there in the English grammar a complement of comparison (etwa: Vergleichsobjekt)?


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> What complement (Objekt) could it be in your opinion?


The second part of the comparison takes this form: "than + object form of the pronoun".


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> "than + object form of the pronoun".


But, if 'than' was a preposition and not a conjunction, this should be a general rule. ''I am better than my brother'': what complement should 'my brother' represent? And how do you explain that, in languages with declensions, like German, the 2nd term of the comparison is always in the same case as the first term (ich bin besser als _mein Bruder: _Nominativ)?  I think that 'than', like 'als',  is a conjunction in comparisons, and I agree with G.Back.


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> And how do you explain that, in languages with declensions, like German, the 2nd term of the comparison is always in the same case as the first term (ich bin besser als _mein Bruder: _Nominativ)?


Not in Greek.  We have a construction where the second term of the comparison is not in the same case as the first.


bearded said:


> I think that 'than', like 'als',  is a conjunction in comparisons, and I agree with G.Back.


I don't disagree but in this sentence "He is taller than me" -which is standard English- I cannot see "than" as a conjunction.


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> We have a construction where the second term of the comparison is not in the same case as the first.


Perhaps because you use a word that is also usually a preposition...(apò/parà?), whereas 'than' is used only in comparisons, I think.


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> Perhaps because you use a word that is also usually a preposition...(parà?), whereas 'than' is used only in comparisons, I think.


No, I meant the preposition "apo": "apo + accusative".


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## ayuda?

Don’t mean to take forum time on English, but it can be of importance to German speakers also.

I understand what both Gernot and djweaverbeaver are saying.
I found the same reference to _The American Heritage Dictionary_ for than
*Excerpt:*
…Since the 1700s, grammarians have insisted that *than* should be regarded as a *conjunction* in all its uses,…
[So, yes, you’re right. You can define it as a *conjunction*.]

*Pat is taller than I*:
[That is technically and grammatically correct, but nobody really says that, except in some exceptional cases—as you have stated. *Pat is taller than me* is what everybody says [Accusative case vs. Nominative case].

And using their example:
*Pat is taller than I. *[the shortened form of the sentence below]
*Pat is taller than I am. *[Considered as a conjunction here, just as *and* would be—it joins 2 complete clauses that have a subject and a verb.]

The reference later goes on to say there is a missing verb [*than ↔ me*] and it doesn’t refer back to any ellipsis concerning *I*, which would be understood. That’s why they are saying that it now is considered _by__ some_ to be a* preposition* and, therefore, it is taking the Accusative, not the Nominative.

Personally, I guess I would still consider it to be a *conjunction*. But if the real grammarians who stay up at night tossing and turning over this stuff since the 1700s are not in agreement about it either, everyone can probably just make up their own mind about it, I suppose.

* Bottom Line:
●Just something to remember* about *than me* vs. *than I* in this sort of comparison [That’s what we’re really all talking about here.]
●Most Americans would not know about a preposition from a conjunction in this case because the structure is just naturally ingrained from day one. [just like _C'est mois_ is in French]
●Ain’t gonna make no difference nowhow what you call it. I never really saw an explanation before this.
Not important, not needed—just the usage is.
●In the end it _is_ all very “pedantic,”*** usage by the experts, the word they used in the excerpt.
***pe·dan·tic  (pə-dăn′tĭk)
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for academic knowledge and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.

[All respectfully stated. Please don’t take it any other way.]


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## Schlabberlatz

Ich kenne die Erklärung – wobei ich nicht weiß, ob es stimmt – dass das einfach mit der Sprachgeschichte zusammenhängt. Zuerst war das Englische eine synthetische Sprache, Stichwort: Völkerwanderung … Angeln, Sachsen, Jüten …

Später wandelte es sich zur analytischen Sprache, wodurch die Satzstellung strenger wurde, also die Reihenfolge S – V – O, Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel. Die erste Position ist die ›subject position‹, die dritte die ›object position‹. Wenn etwas in der ›object position‹ steht, wird es eben wie ein Objekt dekliniert, weil das halt so üblich ist für etwas, das in dieser Position steht   

 "He is taller than me."


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## ablativ

Perseas said:


> The second part of the comparison takes this form: "than + object form of the pronoun".
> bearded: "... in languages with declensions, like German, the 2nd term of the comparison is *always* in the same case as the first term ..."



What about this sentence? _He likes Paul better than me.
_
Pretty ambiguous: _Does he like Paul better than I (do)_? _Paul_ and _me/I _are nominatives.

Or in the meaning of: _Does he like Paul better than he likes me?_ _He_ is nominative, and _me _is accusative (direct object) in this sentence.


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## Hutschi

Schlabberlatz said:


> ...
> 
> Später wandelte es sich zur analytischen Sprache, wodurch die Satzstellung strenger wurde, also die Reihenfolge S – V – O, Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel. Die erste Position ist die ›subject position‹, die dritte die ›object position‹. Wenn etwas in der ›object position‹ steht, wird es eben wie ein Objekt dekliniert, weil das halt so üblich ist für etwas, das in dieser Position steht
> 
> "He is taller than me."


This could also explain “it's me“, if it is true.

Umgangssprachlich kann man in Deutsch sagen:
Tante Anna hat einen Hund. Er ist größer als Onkel Otto seiner.
Welcher Fall ist “seiner“ hier?


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> Umgangssprachlich kann man in Deutsch sagen:
> Tante Anna hat einen Hund. Er ist größer als Onkel Otto seiner.
> Welcher Fall ist “seiner“ hier?


Verzeihung, aber ich verstehe den Zweck dieses Beispiels nicht ganz.  Für mich steht hier ''Onkel Otto'' im Dativ, und ''seiner'' im Nominativ (Pronomen).
''Seiner'' ist daher im selben Fall wie das Subjekt ''er'' (''seiner'' steht für ''sein Hund'': also _second term of the comparison in the same case as the first term). _Oder wolltest Du dadurch etwas Anderes beweisen, das mir entgeht...?


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## Hutschi

Ich war mir hier nicht sicher. Wenn es Nominativ ist, ist alles klar.


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## NewGuy2

bearded said:


> Verzeihung, aber ich verstehe den Zweck dieses Beispiels nicht ganz.  Für mich steht hier ''Onkel Otto'' im Dativ, und ''seiner'' im Nominativ (Pronomen).
> ''Seiner'' ist daher im selben Fall wie das Subjekt ''er'' (''seiner'' steht für ''sein Hund'': also _second term of the comparison in the same case as the first term). _Oder wolltest Du dadurch etwas Anderes beweisen, das mir entgeht...?


It’s an older dialectal genitive. It’s still used in Norwegian to this day and is pretty standard.


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## NewGuy2

ayuda? said:


> Don’t mean to take forum time on English, but it can be of importance to German speakers also.
> 
> I understand what both Gernot and djweaverbeaver are saying.
> I found the same reference to _The American Heritage Dictionary_ for than
> *Excerpt:*
> …Since the 1700s, grammarians have insisted that *than* should be regarded as a *conjunction* in all its uses,…
> [So, yes, you’re right. You can define it as a *conjunction*.]
> 
> *Pat is taller than I*:
> [That is technically and grammatically correct, but nobody really says that, except in some exceptional cases—as you have stated. *Pat is taller than me* is what everybody says [Accusative case vs. Nominative case].
> 
> And using their example:
> *Pat is taller than I. *[the shortened form of the sentence below]
> *Pat is taller than I am. *[Considered as a conjunction here, just as *and* would be—it joins 2 complete clauses that have a subject and a verb.]
> 
> The reference later goes on to say there is a missing verb [*than ↔ me*] and it doesn’t refer back to any ellipsis concerning *I*, which would be understood. That’s why they are saying that it now is considered _by__ some_ to be a* preposition* and, therefore, it is taking the Accusative, not the Nominative.
> 
> Personally, I guess I would still consider it to be a *conjunction*. But if the real grammarians who stay up at night tossing and turning over this stuff since the 1700s are not in agreement about it either, everyone can probably just make up their own mind about it, I suppose.
> 
> * Bottom Line:
> ●Just something to remember* about *than me* vs. *than I* in this sort of comparison [That’s what we’re really all talking about here.]
> ●Most Americans would not know about a preposition from a conjunction in this case because the structure is just naturally ingrained from day one. [just like _C'est mois_ is in French]
> ●Ain’t gonna make no difference nowhow what you call it. I never really saw an explanation before this.
> Not important, not needed—just the usage is.
> ●In the end it _is_ all very “pedantic,”*** usage by the experts, the word they used in the excerpt.
> ***pe·dan·tic  (pə-dăn′tĭk)
> adj.
> Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for academic knowledge and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
> 
> [All respectfully stated. Please don’t take it any other way.]


I’d also say for pronoun to be in the nominative, it has to fulfill the role of an agent, ie, be in the subject position.  You can use mich in German although it may be outdated. Mig/Mich is standard usage in Danish, but not commonly in Swedish. 
(As for) me, I think this is the right interpretation.


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## Jektor

_> #16:
"Pat is taller than me 
or:
"Pat is taller than I am _.

> "It's me who has led you to to-day...
forum.wordreference.com - its-me-who-has-led-you-to-today.3402582/#17284328
In French:
"He is taller/bigger than me = Il est plus grand que *moi*... (_not_ "plus grand que *je*...")
context.reverso.net - french-english - plus+grand+que+moi
.


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## Hutschi

Hi, a similar form using dative: _Pat ist mir an Größe überlegen._ - This is an old form, too. 
The form is seldom used now.
It is dative because of the verb. Jemandem an etwas überlegen sein.


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> It is dative because of the verb. Jemandem an etwas überlegen sein.


Because of the verb or just because the adjective 'überlegen' requires/governs the dative case?
_Ich halte ihn für einen mir überlegenen Menschen._


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## Hutschi

Verbs and prepositions are working together. In some cases the verb clarifies the case in "Wechselpräpositionen".


bearded said:


> Ich halte ihn für einen mir überlegenen Menschen.



"Mir überlegen" does not depend on the verb "halten". It is an attribute of "Menschen"
But "Menschen" does.
Ich halte ihn für *einen (mir überlegenen) Menschen*.
[/QUOTE]

"Mir" depends on "überlegen" - jemand*em* _*überlegen sein*_.  "Jemandem überlegen" is derived from "jemandem überlegen sein".


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> "Mir" depends on "überlegen"  - jemand*em* _*überlegen sein*_.


Ohne 'sein' in meinem Beispiel. Ich wollte dadurch zeigen, dass ein Dativ dem Adjektiv 'überlegen' folgt/folgen kann, ohne dass  sich da zwangsweise das Verb 'sein' befindet. Du hattest geschrieben ''it's dative because of the verb''.


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## JClaudeK

Jektor said:


> In French:
> "He is taller/bigger than me = Il est plus grand que *moi*... (_not_ "plus grand que *je*...")
> context.reverso.net - french-english - plus+grand+que+moi





> On utilise les *pronoms toniques* dans une comparaison.
> Exemples :Je cours plus vite que toi.
> 
> 
> Paul est plus rapide que moi.
> Elle étudie beaucoup plus que nous.


Oder auch "pronoms disjoints" (_= disjunctive pronouns_) genannt.

Gibt es so etwas auf Englisch?


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