# Usefulness of Latin?



## JLanguage

I'm in my first year of Latin and as a native English speaker I find it a very difficult language. Virtually every word is inflected and there are many different case endings requiring memorization.. I know that there are numerous classic works in Latin, yet I am unsure if this is enough of a reson to justify learning the language. Anyone who has learned more advanced latin, how did you memorize all the various endings? Constant practice and review? 

In your opinion, is learning Latin worth it?

Also, how easy is it to retain your knowledge of Latin? I would think you would have to read Latin at least once in a while to maintain your level of reading comprehension.


----------



## Lancel0t

helo JL, I don't know Latin but let me share your my idea regarding your question 





> In your opinion, is learning Latin worth it?



IMHO It depends on the purpose of your study. If you can use it in your daily lives, it is worth learning but if not, I guess it would be better to try to learn other "living" languages instead of a dead one.


----------



## temujin

Hi,

I never had Latin at school, though I have several friends who had it...
At first sight Latin seem to be a useless, dead language. However, apart from the languages derived directly from Latin, I think Latin grammar has influenced others languages as well, and (correct me if I´m wrong) I think most verbal tenses present in western languages together, are all present in Latin. Once you know the basic structure of Latin grammar, you might find it easier to learn other languages, at least grasping the grammar.

t.


----------



## yolanda_van huyck

I studied Latin for 5 years, as well as Ancient Greek, another death language. I speak English, French, Italian and Catalan; i studied Portuguese and Arabian as well, and for all my studies, it has been a great help. However, all the courses i had to do of maths, sciences... i studied and i forgot them, they were useless for what i wanted to study in the University. So i won't say if it serves or not, i just say that everything depends on what you want to study and on your interests.
Anyway, i know it's not easy, so alea jacta est!

regards

Yoli


----------



## Merlino

temujin said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I never had Latin at school, though I have several friends who had it...
> At first sight Latin seem to be a useless, dead language. However, apart from the languages derived directly from Latin, I think Latin grammar has influenced others languages as well, and (correct me if I´m wrong) I think most verbal tenses present in western languages together, are all present in Latin. Once you know the basic structure of Latin grammar, you might find it easier to learn other languages, at least grasping the grammar.
> 
> t.



If Latin has influenced languages in Western Europe other than the Romance languages its influence isn't as big as you might think... Its influences in for example Dutch, English and German are because of invasions into these countries (and vice versa, though this influence is of even less significance). Rather, the languages are similar because they've all been derived from another language, the Proto-Indo European. This also explains why Latin (and other European languages) have a lot of similarities with languages spoken in India (Proto-*Indo* European).


----------



## JLanguage

My problem is that I don't have any enthusiasm for learning Latin, because once I've learned it there isn't any literature written in Latin that interests me. Not to mention that I will be unable to communicate with anyone win Latin. I'm going to talk to my Latin teacher tomorrow and ask her opinion.

EDIT: If I was learning Spanish, then I could start reading simple children's books and then to more advanced children's literature and with luck and little effort, in a few years I'll be reading regular Spanish Literature. Right now all I can read in Latin are the very uninteresting stories that we are featured in our textbook. I am also put-off by the fact that I don't know proper Latin pronunciation nor write in Latin, although i suppose I could improvise based on my one-way Latin-to-English knowledge.


----------



## Cristian

Hi everybody,
                  i´ve several things to add what you said regarding the usefulness of Latin.
First both latin and greek are two languages which helps a lot TO THINK!, yes as you read... to think!, because it demands of you an important effort and also becuase it helps you to ordain your ideas, thoughts, etc.
Second as somebody remarked, it gives to you the bases of the other languages which have latin as its root (Spanish, Italian, French, etc); indeed I could learn french very easily after studying Latin for three years.
In practice you´ll see that the persons who know these two languages have less problems than the others in school, and that is the reason why an important american person (i think it was a former president) recomended it, and that is why in the URSS all the "high society" so to speak, did study them.
Somebody said Latin is a dead language... well i don´t think so!, because besides you may found a number of books, you get it in the liturgy of the Catholic Church (Mass, sacraments, etc., which may be you will not like or care, but that´s the true... although not many prists say the Mass in Latin... but that is another question!!).
In order to finish this extensive letter i´ll give you two keys to learn a language
a) it´s better to study half an hour EVERYDAY than to study two or three days a week the same amount of time.
b) "in order to learn READ, READ, AND READ"!!!.
That´s all...

Cristian Jacobo


----------



## lainyn

Also, there are some classic children's books that have been translated into Latin. You should try out The Winnie the Pooh books and Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in Latin. They're great! That should help you keep an interest in the language. Also, I would give anything to be able to study Latin, if only for a little while, so take advantage of this chance while you can.  - I admit I only say this because I wish I had.


----------



## Benjy

i did 5 years latin.. i guess the only way to memorise the endings is to practice reading them. its a lot easier to get them by using them than by learning tables.  thing is with inflection and prepostions, its just two sides of the same coin. you either learn which preopostion to use or which case is appropriate. i don't think i would have picked up french half so fast if i hadnt have learnt latin. the sad thing is though, after 5 years of total rejection i can't read a word of it. and i used to be really quite good at it too :/


----------



## ameridude

Latin is useful as a building block toward other languages.  But noone speaks Latin.  Foreign languages are most useful if they allow you to actually communicate with other people.  If you want to learn Spanish, just learn Spanish.  Same for French, Italian, etc.  Learning a language is time-consuming and there's little reason to spend 3-5 years learning Latin just so it will make learning other languages easier.

I would argue against learning Latin unless you plan on becoming a priest or a scholar for whom Latin would be directly applicable.


----------



## Amatus

Salvete!

Personally, I find a knowledge of Latin very useful.  A great deal of info is to be found in the Roman classics, treatises, etc. by later writers, etc.    We must grasp knowledge and wisdom where ever it may be found.

I'm no expert, I'm still learning. I sometimes use it in text messages to my girlfriend.  Great fun.  A great many people are put off by the seeming difficulty, but it's not much more difficult than Italian or Spanish.  As for the pronunciation, in the days when Latin was a language of scholars one would pronounce it according to the speech habits of his country.  Personally, I pronounce Latin pretty much in the Neo-classical way.


----------



## Athaulf

JLanguage said:


> I'm in my first year of Latin and as a native English speaker I find it a very difficult language. Virtually every word is inflected and there are many different case endings requiring memorization.. I know that there are numerous classic works in Latin, yet I am unsure if this is enough of a reson to justify learning the language.



I learned Latin for two years in high school, but unfortunately this was far too short to gain any sort of proficiency. The best thing I got out of it is that I'm able to understand the grammar of frequently used Latin proverbs and thus don't end up messing up the suffixes when quoting them. I also find it very helpful when dealing with Latin plurals in English -- although the downside is that I feel like puking at the sight of commonly perpetrated atrocities such as _ignorami_ or _virii_. 

I also found the Latin conjugations useful while learning Spanish, and even the declensions to a certain extent (for example, I instantly had the intuition for some genders). However, I didn't find the vocabulary that useful, since most of the original Latin words in Romance languages (as opposed to the newer Latinisms, which you'll know from English anyway) have changed beyond recognition. 



> Anyone who has learned more advanced latin, how did you memorize all the various endings? Constant practice and review?


_Repetitio est mater studiorum. _

Personally, I didn't find the Latin conjugations and declensions that hard to memorize (however, my native language is also heavily inflected and has a very similar case system). But if you really want to reach a level of proficiency necessary to read the Latin classics, be aware that there is much more to the language than just the inflections. You'll likely need a few years of pretty hard study to reach that level.



> Also, how easy is it to retain your knowledge of Latin? I would think you would have to read Latin at least once in a while to maintain your level of reading comprehension.


Without at least occasional practice, your proficiency in any language will start falling very soon. Most of my colleagues remember almost nothing of our high school Latin (and I've also forgotten a lot of it).


----------



## BlueWolf

JLanguage said:


> My problem is that I don't have any enthusiasm for learning Latin, because once I've learned it there isn't any literature written in Latin that interests me. Not to mention that I will be unable to communicate with anyone win Latin. I'm going to talk to my Latin teacher tomorrow and ask her opinion.



I don't want to sound pessimist, but if you don't have any enthusiasm you'll never learn it, or, if you learn, you'll hate it and you'll forget it very quickly. Since it's not spoken, only can its charme make you love it.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,



> In your opinion, is learning Latin worth it?


Why does something has to be *useful* in order to study it? 
Latin is interesting in itself. If you're not convinced of that, then don't study it.

Of course, if you're interested in Latin literature (which you're not that much?) then it's certainly worth it. If you're interested in Roman and European history (enough to read primary texts in Latin), paleography, archaeology, etc. then Latin obviously is a must.

***
Some reactions to previous mails:


Cristian said:


> i´ve several things to add what you said regarding the usefulness of Latin. First both latin and greek are two languages which helps a lot TO THINK!, yes as you read... to think!, because it demands of you an important effort and also becuase it helps you to ordain your ideas, thoughts, etc.


So does studying Swahili, Visual Basic, mathematics, etc. 



> I think most verbal tenses present in western languages together, are all present in Latin. Once you know the basic structure of Latin grammar, you might find it easier to learn other languages, at least grasping the grammar.


I strongly doubt that. If you take French imparfait and passé composé, English simple past and present perfect, Dutch 'simple past' and 'present perfect'. Though morphologically these tenses are comparable, you'll find major differences in the usages.

If you want to learn Latin in order to facilitate studying Romance languages... spare yourself that trouble and learn Italian or Spanish or... instead.


Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Etcetera

Frank06 said:


> Why does something has to be *useful* in order to study it?
> Latin is interesting in itself. If you're not convinced of that, then don't study it.


I totally agree with you, Frank!

I had Latin in my first year at the University. It was fascinating! I still dream of learning Latin properly. The language is marvellous! 
Latin helps me greatly with Italian. I can guess the meaning of a number of words from my knowledge of Latin.


----------



## Qcumber

1) Buy a good Latin novel and its English translation. 
2) Buy a copy-book.
3) Copy short passages that you find interesting, and their Latin originals.
4) Analyze and parse each passage using your grammar and your dictionary.


----------



## confusion

Personally I've never studied Latin, but here in Italy it is a compulsory subject if you choose a specific high school - so called "liceo".

I've never felt the need to study this language, even if I think that it should be fascinating. I sometimes would like to know at least a little bit of Latin because it's often use in my books. I study law and a lot of nice latin maxims could help me in remembering some issues.

By the way I agree with those ones who say:



> Latin is interesting in itself. If you're not convinced of that, then don't study it


----------



## palomnik

I took four years of Latin, and I confess that on the whole I had an ambivalent feeling about it.

I don't subscribe to the school that says that dead languages are not worth learning. As somebody once said, "the past is a foreign country", and the study of dead languages is one pathway into a world that is totally different from our own.

Having said that, I hated Latin. I've studied other dead languages since then, including Classical Greek, Classical Chinese, and I'm working on Sanskrit, and I have enjoyed them all. I never encountered a language that I thought was more stone cold BORING than Latin. It took a long time before I realized why it might be that I felt that way, especially since I found Classical Greek so much more interesting. Gradually I came to understand that the Latin that Cicero and Virgil wrote in was a convoluted tongue even when they wrote, glorifying in archaisms and preciosity, almost a puzzle to decipher, self-consciously imitating the Greeks, who wrote so much better and clearer. And to boot, the Romans didn't really talk like that in their daily life.

In the meantime, I've developed an interest in Medieval studies, for which a knowledge of Latin is indispensable. My interest in the language has picked up, and now I'm happy I learned it.


----------



## TimeHP

When I was a student everyone was obliged to study Latin for 2 years at  secondary school. And I also studied Latin at the Lyceum for 5 years.
I found it very useful when I was at the University and still I found it enriching for my language.  
When my son and my daughter were at the secondary school, I was sorry that Latin wasn't compulsory because studying Latin can be a way to widen your mind, to improve your memory and your vocabulary, to know the etimology of a word...
Finally I use it in a comic way sometimes, just to be funny... 
Ciao


----------



## Amityville

palomnik, thumbs up for your Latin concision, you said it.
I agree Greek literature is better, clearer, more
classic, more intrinsically beautiful. Latin is interesting but dusty and 'langue de bois'
you have to find it interesting in itself.I learned Latin & Greek for about 10 years - just for themselves, no end view. Were they useful
for learning modern languages ? For vocabulary yes, but then French helps Spanish, knowledge
of any romance language helps learning any other. Knowing the root meanings as opposed to
sibling cognates may have helped clear my head of fluff sometimes but I wouldn't for that
reason advise someone else to pursue that course as a simple linguistic tool, a means to
another end. Grammar - similar feelings, mutatis mutandis.
Regarding keeping up your level of competence, at least Latin is static nor do you have to worry about keeping up your end of the conversation. In that respect it's low maintenance.


----------



## Victoria32

An interesting idea is that studying Latin is a 'prestige' thing. Here in New Zealand it used to be that a language was compulsory beyond a certain level at high school, when we had streaming. If you were in the top stream, you were required to do a language, but Latin was available only to the best and brightest. I came in just under that level and so did German and French, about which I am absolutely made up! I have used German (and still do, in writing to pen friends, yesterday being the most recent time.) 

I still regard Latin as prestige, and mind-bendingly difficult, though I have never studied it, and recently I had two friends tell me they had come top of their class in Latin, both by way of telling me that they know their abilities have deteriorated in recent years.  
Vicky


----------



## Amityville

Yes, there is that aspect too. Latin/Greek have opened one or two doors for me in totally unrelated areas, because someone with power was impressed. I think those days are gone now.


----------



## Qcumber

The Latin test to civil service positions in the UK was rescinded about a decade ago.


----------



## Cecilio

I studied Latin at school and I must say I fell in love with that language and the Roman world in general. I didn't take classical studies at university because I had to choose something that could grant me a job more easily, for example becoming an English teacher.

I don't think it is fair to say that Latin is a dead language. I would call it "classical". Dead languages are no longer present in the world, like Iberian or Sumerian. Who said Latin is 'dead'? Hundreds of Latin words are invented everyday to name new species of animals, plants, etc., so that Latin is BY FAR the language with the highest number of words! Besides, there are associations of Latin-speakers, Internet newspapers in Latin and even chats for Latin-speakers.


----------



## irene.acler

I studied Latin at school (the so called "liceo", here in Italy), and at that time I thought it was not so useful to learn it, because I didn't see any relationship with, let's say, the real world. It semeed to me as a language without utility in my life.
Nevertheless, my teachers always said us that Latin was (well, is) a subject which allows us to develop our abilities in matematics for example, or the capacity to discuss many topics and give evidence of them.

Now, my view about Latin has changed, and I can say that I agree with Cecilio when he says that it cannot be considered a dead language, as it is widely used in many field. I'm thinking about the field of law for example, which uses a lot of terms and expressions that come from Latin. But also, sometimes I can find the meaning of a particular (not so widely used, or specialized) word in my own mothertongue language, Italian, by making reference to Latin.


----------



## Victoria32

irene.acler said:


> . But also, sometimes I can find the meaning of a particular (not so widely used, or specialized) word in my own mothertongue language, Italian, by making reference to Latin.


Really? That's very interesting..

Vicky


----------



## irene.acler

Yes, especially with specialized terms (law terms, medical terms, scientific ones), it's more easier to find out the meaning if you deconstruct the word, so as to identify the Latin correspondent.


----------



## Victoria32

irene.acler said:


> Yes, especially with specialized terms (law terms, medical terms, scientific ones), it's more easier to find out the meaning if you deconstruct the word, so as to identify the Latin correspondent.


Ah, yes, it makes perfect sense!  

VL


----------



## Qcumber

Of course one can imagine the day when nobody at all will know Latin and Greek. How would they coin new scientific terms then?
Just think of xeroxcopy, how could they have coined it without Greek xerox-. And edible without Latin edit-? Surely the Western world still needs Latinists and Hellenists.


----------



## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> Of course one can imagine the day when nobody at all will know Latin and Greek. How would they coin new scientific terms then?


Use a list of prefixes and suffixes. I know the general meaning of most Latin and Greek affixes, so I can always deconstruct technical words to find their intended meaning, too, but I wouldn't say that I "know" Latin or Greek. I have never studied either, and am unable to speak them.


----------



## Athaulf

Outsider said:


> I know the general meaning of most Latin and Greek affixes, so I can always deconstruct technical words to find their intended meaning, too, but I wouldn't say that I "know" Latin or Greek. I have never studied either, and am unable to speak them.



One problem with this approach is that people who never studied either Latin or Greek tend to mix them up and thus sometimes end up polluting the language with various awful sounding Latin-Greek chimeras. Such crimes against good taste have been perpetrated for quite a while, the most prominent examples being _television_ and _sociology_.


----------



## Outsider

I also know which affixes are Latin and which are Greek.


----------



## Cecilio

Athaulf said:


> One problem with this approach is that people who never studied either Latin or Greek tend to mix them up and thus sometimes end up polluting the language with various awful sounding Latin-Greek chimeras. Such crimes against good taste have been perpetrated for quite a while, the most prominent examples being _television_ and _sociology_.



Why is it such a crime? Who said that mixing elements from different languages is wrong?


----------



## Etcetera

Victoria32 said:


> An interesting idea is that studying Latin is a 'prestige' thing. Here in New Zealand it used to be that a language was compulsory beyond a certain level at high school, when we had streaming. If you were in the top stream, you were required to do a language, but Latin was available only to the best and brightest. Vicky


Nothing like that here. Latin is studied by future doctors and philologists. I've never heard of any school where students were taught Latin. But maybe there are some.


----------



## emma42

Re literature:  Try reading a bit of Ars Amatoria (Ovid).  I bet you'll find that interesting!


----------



## icielof

JLanguage said:


> If I was learning Spanish, then I could start reading simple children's books and then to more advanced children's literature and with luck and little effort, in a few years I'll be reading regular Spanish Literature. Right now all I can read in Latin are the very uninteresting stories that we are featured in our textbook. I am also put-off by the fact that I don't know proper Latin pronunciation nor write in Latin, although i suppose I could improvise based on my one-way Latin-to-English knowledge.


 
Try on latinitatis.com/latinitas... and enjoy!


----------



## Outsider

Cecilio said:


> Why is it such a crime? Who said that mixing elements from different languages is wrong?


I agree that it's inelegant and looks clumsy, as if the people who made up the words didn't quite know what they were doing.


----------



## Etcetera

Cecilio said:


> Why is it such a crime? Who said that mixing elements from different languages is wrong?


To me, it sounds very funny. But only as long as the speaker is aware of what they're doing and remembers that these are elements from different languages.


----------



## modus.irrealis

Cecilio said:


> Why is it such a crime? Who said that mixing elements from different languages is wrong?



I agree -- is something like "imposed," where "im" ultimately comes from Latin, "pose" from Greek, and "d" from English, a monstrosity? Or is that not what people mean?


----------



## Cecilio

modus.irrealis said:


> I agree -- is something like "imposed," where "im" ultimately comes from Latin, "pose" from Greek, and "d" from English, a monstrosity? Or is that not what people mean?


 
Are you sure "pose" comes from Greek?


----------



## Outsider

I don't believe it does. _Impose_ --> _im + ponere_, both Latin.

Of course it's O.K. to decline the word according to the rules of your own language, once it has been created (I've never quite understood why English speakers are so attached to abstruse Latin plurals like "fora" and "radii"). But, as the root is being created, one should be consistent about where one borrows from. It should look like a word which _could have existed_ in classical Latin, or in classical Greek, as the case may be; not as a careless mish-mash of both.


----------



## modus.irrealis

Cecilio said:


> Are you sure "pose" comes from Greek?



I double checked but it seems in this case I have to really stress the "ultimately" . This site, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pose, traces it back to pausare from pausa, which http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=pause says does go back to a Greek word.


----------



## modus.irrealis

Outsider said:


> Of course it's O.K. to decline the word according to the rules of your own language, once it has been created (I've never quite understood why English speakers are so attached to abstruse Latin plurals like "fora" and "radii"). But, as the root is being created, one should be consistent about where one borrows from. It should look like a word which _could have existed_ in classical Latin, or in classical Greek, as the case may be; not as a careless mish-mash of both.



But -ology is a perfectly good English ending now, so I can't see why it shouldn't be used wherever. To me, it seems to follow the pattern of words like civilize, with Greek elements added to non-Greek bases. I guess this is all a matter of taste though in the end.


----------



## ireney

Athaulf said:


> Such crimes against good taste have been perpetrated for quite a while, the most prominent examples being _television_ and _sociology_.




Well I can see *teleorase as an English word but *koinoniology? Nahh 

As for the usefulness: I guess it's more useful to someone who does not speak one of the languages with lots in common with Latin as I am. I had to learn some Latin in high-school (and then some more in the University) because of the fields of studies I chose. They certainly helped me understanding some of the Romance languages more than French (I think; but then my French is not that good) but maybe studying one of these languages extensively would help me more, I cannot tell.

Is Latin useful? Yes and no. I believe that everything a person learns can become useful in a given situation. Many examples of how Latin can be useful have already be given (though no one seems to have mentioned understanding Pratchett's "Latin sayings"   ).

Is it more useful than learning another language? Probably not, depending on why you want to learn a language.

The thing is, I personally didn't even learn English because of its usefulness; It's just one of the languages I liked ever since I was young. This means I am not the right person to answer really. 

I don't like the rather predominant  trend of learning only what can be useful in a practical sense anyway.


Off topic: Oh the plurals! See this thread for instance but do not reply to this part of this post! It's waay off topic I think.


----------



## emma42

How can a word compounded from two different languages be a "crime against good taste"?! To my knowledge, all languages are compounds in any event, including Latin.

If we had all adhered to such an idea of "taste", we'd all still be saying "ugg!" (some of us still do from time to time).

I found Latin fascinating and could not wait to begin learning it.  It has really helped with my understanding of grammar, vocabulary and much western literature.  However, if you have no enthusiasm for it, it won't be much fun.


----------



## Athaulf

Outsider said:


> I also know which affixes are Latin and which are Greek.



But you're a native speaker of a modern dialect of Latin.  English speakers (among others) usually aren't blessed with such an intuition.


----------



## Athaulf

emma42 said:


> How can a word compounded from two different languages be a "crime against good taste"?! [...] If we had all adhered to such an idea of "taste", we'd all still be saying "ugg!" (some of us still do from time to time).



_ De gustibus non est disputandum_, and thus I'll just limit myself to saying "ugg!"


----------



## Outsider

Athaulf said:


> But you're a native speaker of a modern dialect of Latin.  English speakers (among others) usually aren't blessed with such an intuition.


Oh, it's not Latin intuition! Let's just say that was part of my obsession with language when I was a kid.


----------



## emma42

Athaulf, that is a wholly inadequate answer, but it was funny, so I'll allow it!  Ugg.


----------

