# Pronunciation: 唐突



## yuechu

大家好！

I heard the word 唐突 on TV today and noticed that the pronunciation in a few dictionaries is different. Perapera dictionary has it as "tángtū" and Google Translate has it as "tángtú". Are both of these common pronunciations? Is this a difference between the North and South? (or between Mainland China and Taiwan?)
Thanks!


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## Skatinginbc

突 in 唐突(tang2-tu2), 突兀(tu2-wu4), and 突出 (tu2-chu1 'outstanding') is read tu2 in Taiwan, where 突 tu1 is uncommon (突然 is an exception.  Both tu2ran2 and tu1ran2 can be commonly heard in Taiwan).  I assume those in the Mainland that pronounce 唐突(tang2-tu1) would also say 突兀(tu1-wu4) and 突出 (tu1-chu1).


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## yuechu

Thanks, Skatinginbc! That's good to know about 突然, which has two pronunciations in Taiwan!

On the subject of 突然, is 突然间 (did I write it correctly?) used in Taiwan at all or this is an expression only used in the North of China? (I have a feeling it is 北方话 but am not sure)


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## Skatinginbc

I don't think saying 突然间 would strike you as different in Taiwan.  Let me put it this way: I've said it so many times in my lifetime that I lost count.


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## fyl

It's a mainland taiwan difference. In mainland mandarin 突 has only one sound tu1 and 唐突 is only tang2tu1. Interestingly, google translate marks it as tang2tu2 but the sound (click the "listen" button) is tang2tu1.


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## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> It's a mainland taiwan difference. In mainland mandarin 突 has only one sound tu1 and 唐突 is only tang2tu1.


It's hard to believe that tu2 is a Taiwan innovation, so I checked the database and found that 突 is read 陽平 in 西南官話 (e.g., 武昌) as well as in the Beijing dialect --Yes, the Beijing dialect, which had (or still has??) two pronunciations for 突: Both 陰平 and 陽平.  I think 突 tu2 in Taiwan Mandarin is a heirloom of the 老北京話.


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## retrogradedwithwind

忽然想起来，单田芳的评书是不是总把突读成二声？


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## fyl

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 忽然想起来，单田芳的评书是不是总把突读成二声？


好像还真有点单田芳的味道，记不大清了……东北话跟普通话声调不一样的地方好像挺多的。


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## Skatinginbc

I did a quick search on Youtube with the key phrase "突厥" and found a CCTV documentary "长城·中国的故事 第七集 天下", in which the reporter consistently says 東突tu2厥 (e.g., 2:44, 2:57, 3:04, 3:19, 3:23, to name just a few).  Strangely, he nevertheless says "突tu1厥" when there is no 東-.  For that speaker, 突tu2 is apparently a conditioned allotonic variation.

BTW: 突tu1(厥) reminds me of 禿(驢), 聽起來像是罵人的話


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> the reporter consistently says 東突tu2厥 (e.g., 2:44, 2:57, 3:04, 3:19, 3:23,


Weird!!! I have just checked all these 5 occurrences of 东突厥. They are all clearly 东突tu1厥 according to my ears.
Do different people/dialects perceive tones differently?
Edit: Maybe you could try to click the "gears" at lower right to set the speed to 0.5 to make it slower?


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## Skatinginbc

fyl said:


> you could try to click the "gears" at lower right to set the speed to 0.5 to make it slower?


Yes, you are right.  My mistake.  They are *clearly the first tone* under the slow mode when the pitch contour within an individual word is prolonged and amplified.


fyl said:


> Do different people/dialects perceive tones differently?


Perhaps.  突 in "東突厥"是個重音的"突"(東 + 突厥) , 不是弱音的"突" (東突 + 厥), 如果像視頻裡的播音員把東突厥的"突"弱化作東˥突˦厥˧˥ (55, 44, 35)的話, 我會誤認"突"為一個平化的二聲 (like bing˥ qi˦ lin˧˥ for 冰淇淋 bīng qí lín), 因重音的一聲, 其音高至少得保持和"東"一樣, 不應稍降下來. Let me illustrate what I mean by "pitch drop":
Compare: 東西 dong1xi1 "east and west" vs. 東西 dong1xi "thing" (the start pitch of 西 slightly drops below the pitch of 東 even if you prolong the length of 西 and keep its pitch flat throughout). 東˥西˥ (重音西) and 東˥西˦ (弱音西) are contrastive.


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> BTW: 突tu1(厥) reminds me of 禿(驢), 聽起來像是罵人的話


突tu2然 reminds me of 徒然，听起来也不是什么好话


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> 突tu2然 reminds me of 徒然


That might explain why 突然 is also commonly pronounced tu1ran2 in Taiwan ==> to avoid confusion with 徒然.
Anyway, you are right, SuperXW, but I meant 突 tu2 sounds nicer for a personal name (e.g., 李突, 柬埔寨国务部长; 李突 tu2 simply sounds better than 李突 tu1) or proper noun (e.g., 突厥) given that there are many words with the tu2 sound (e.g., 途, 圖, 涂, etc.) and thus it is not readily associated with a particular word.  突 tu1 does not sound good in a name because it has only a couple homophones and thus may easily remind people of 禿.


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## kategogogo

> BTW: 突tu1(厥) reminds me of 禿(驢), 聽起來像是罵人的話


可是中国的普通话好像真就是念tu1突厥，我想他们从小就这样念，所以不会有人听到以为是秃头的秃。这就像听到‘匈奴’，就知道在说那个骑马的少数民族，但不会有人去想‘胸奴’一样。

而且，‘秃’字其实中性，只是描述没有头发了，并不是不礼貌，我觉得如此。

台湾话和中国普通话很多音调，还有发音都不一样，比如普通话读俄(2)罗斯,台湾是俄(4)罗斯，只是从小听习惯了说习惯了那一个，听到另一种发音就觉得不习惯，有的奇怪，并不是对错的问题。


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