# The language of the Waldensians (Occitan?)



## edwardtheconfessor

Waldense: a language related to Catalan - but once spoken (and written) in Provence area.  Does anyone know anything about this? Is it still in existence as a language? Or has it been replaced by modern provençal?
Many thanks  -   edwardtheconfessor.


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## Agró

The only references I've found have to do with a mediaeval religious movement:

*valdès -esa 
*


_1 _adj. [HIH] Relatiu o pertanyent a Pere Valdès o als valdesos. Església valdesa. 
_2 _m. i f. [HIH] Membre  d’un moviment espiritual originat arran de la predicació de Pere Valdès  a Lió que actualment constitueix una confessió cristiana autònoma.


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## Adolfo Afogutu

There is a Waldesian colony in the south of Uruguay. In fact, a few towns were founded by these immigrants: Valdense, Cosmopolita, Colonia La Paz and some others. The dialect they spoke was *patois*, a hard-to-undestand mixture of French and Italian. Both my mother and father were born in one of those towns. It is still spoken in the Waldensian valleys, of course.


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## edwardtheconfessor

Adolfo, this is very helpful! Do you know any of the language - or know any contacts that will help here? I am wishing to obtain a translation of a short sentence in English ....


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## ursu-lab

Waldensian community in Italy is quite large: write your sentence in the  Italian-English forum or send me a pm


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## ryba

Hello, edwardtheconfessor.

There's no language related to Catalan more closely than the Occitan language.

Following Adolfo's hints I've found out that Colonia Valdense, Uruguay, "was founded in 1856, following the arrival of Italian immigrants from Piedmont". In Piedmont, many languages are spoken, Piedmontese, Occitan, Arpitan (=Franco-Provençal), and standardized Italian (based on Tuscan), so it's necessary to establish whether or not Waldensian Valleys are part of the Valadas Occitanas; and these sites:   forterocca.com/en/surrounding-area/the-waldensian-valleys & fondazionevaldese.org indicate they are. The first one talks about Val Pellice (Occitan: Val Pèlis), which figures in the Wikipedia article on The Occitan Valleys, the other one has an Occitan version (written using the  _grafia de l'Escòla dau Pò_, aka _grafio de l'Escolo dóu Po_, traditionally used in the Occitan Valleys, not the classical Occitan orthography) and the foundation has its seat in Torre Pelice, which clearly belongs to the area.

Occitan is not part of Northern Italian, so, I'd say the right thing to do is ask the question here (in OLF), pm ursu-lab , go and ask the folks from occitania.forumactif.com  for help (the section Facultat would be the right place), or maybe e-mail the Fondazione Valdese (they must have some native speakers of THE variety of Occitan at hand). Anyway, starting a thread in Italian-English would not be appropriate forum-wise.


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## ursu-lab

A alguns pobles dels Alps de la Val d'Aosta i de Piemonte, les dues regions a Itàlia, també es parla patois. De totes maneres, ell busca una traducció de l'anglès al patois i és millor demanar-la en una web de consultes lingüístiques de França o de Val d'Aosta (http://www.patoisvda.org/). Jo havia entès que tenia una frase en patois i que volua saber-ne el significat en anglès


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## ryba

ursu-lab said:


> A alguns pobles dels Alps de la Val d'Aosta i de Piemonte, les dues regions a Itàlia, també es parla patois. De totes maneres, ell busca una traducció de l'anglès al patois i és millor demanar-la en una web de consultes lingüístiques de França o de Val d'Aosta (http://www.patoisvda.org/). Jo havia entès que tenia una frase en patois i que volua saber-ne el significat en anglès


Doncas, òc ...e non. Lo « patoès » que se parla dins la Val d'Aosta es l'arpitan qu'es una lenga a despart. Los parlars que s'i referís lo EdwardtheConfessor çai sus son clarament de parlars occitans.


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## edwardtheconfessor

I'm sorry folks, but I'm afraid these last two posts are incomprehensible to me - yet I see my name mentioned and they are posted on my thread. If either of you (or anyone else who wishes to post on this thread) has actual advice that can help me, that will be much appreciated.
However;will you please post in English ? Then I can also follow your (doubtlessly valuable) discussion.  Thank you.
MY INTEREST: Just to clarify for everybody here: I am an amateur philologist (but not a linguist) and, if I can succeed in tracking down this Waldense language, or a speaker/reader of it (if it still exists at all?) then I have a phrase for which I would like to get a translation.
Many thanks     - edwardtheconfessor


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## Outsider

I will attempt to translate.



ursu-lab said:


> A alguns  pobles dels Alps de la Val d'Aosta i de Piemonte, les dues regions a  Itàlia, també es parla patois. De totes maneres, ell busca una traducció  de l'anglès al patois i és millor demanar-la en una web de consultes  lingüístiques de França o de Val d'Aosta (http://www.patoisvda.org/). Jo havia entès que tenia una frase en patois i que volua saber-ne el significat en anglès


In some villages of the Alps, Val d'Aosta and Piedmont, two regions in Italy, _patois_ is also spoken. In any case, the poster is looking for a translation from English to _patois_, and it's best to ask for it in some language website from France or Val d'Aosta (http://www.patoisvda.org/). I thought he had a sentence in _patois_ and wanted to know the meaning in English. 



ryba said:


> Doncas, òc ...e non. Lo « patoès » que se parla dins la Val d'Aosta es l'arpitan qu'es una lenga a despart. Los parlars que s'i referís lo EdwardtheConfessor çai sus son clarament de parlars occitans.


Well, yes... and no. The so-called _patois_ which is spoken in Val d'Aosta is Arpitan, a different language. The languages that EdwardtheConfessor is talking about are clearly varieties of Occitan.


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## ryba

Hello, edwardtheconfessor, nice to see you back. Many thanks to Outsider for the translation we should have provided (sorry)!





edwardtheconfessor said:


> if I can succeed in tracking down this Waldense language, or a speaker/reader of it (if it still exists at all?) then I have a phrase for which I would like to get a translation.
> Many thanks     - edwardtheconfessor



I think your questions have already been answered in the English part of the thread, you just need to make use of the data provided. Good luck with it!


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