# Slovenian: meso



## alice ecila

Hi everyone,

I found out the word "meso" (meat) doesn't exist in plural form, is this correct?
Many thanks in advance!

Alice


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## TriglavNationalPark

I can't think of any context in which *mesa* (the theoretical plural of *meso*) would be idiomatic, so you're right. For instance, I would translate "various meats" as *različne vrste mesa *("various types of meat", with *mesa* being genitive sg. in this case), rather than *različna mesa* (lit. "various meats")


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## alice ecila

TriglavNationalPark said:


> I can't think of any context in which *mesa* (the theoretical plural of *meso*) would be idiomatic, so you're right. For instance, I would translate "various meats" as *različne vrste mesa *("various types of meat", with *mesa* being genitive sg. in this case), rather than *različna mesa* (lit. "various meats")



Thank you, TriglavNationalPark.


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## Duya

In BCS, I could imagine using plural in expressions like "crvena mesa" or "bela mesa", in the sense "red/white types of meat" and Google confirms that it is used that way (e.g. _Sauvignon dobro ide uz crvena mesa_.) However, searching for "rdeča mesa" or "bela mesa site:*.si" does not produce any hits, so I suppose it is not the case in Slovenian.


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## Brainiac

Yes, if there's an adjective or a parameter of quantity, mass nouns could form logical plural.
Kuva se neko meso. (A piece of meat is being cooked)
Razne vrste svinjskog mesa (Various types of pork meat), [different types of pork cuts]
Bela i crvena mesa
Vrste pilećeg mesa

In BCS, there's _mesište (meat, disapproving),_ plural _mesišta_ (these's REALLY plural,  lots of meat, disapproving). I don't know if there's something similar in Slovenian


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## TriglavNationalPark

Duya said:


> In BCS, I could imagine using plural in expressions like "crvena mesa" or "bela mesa", in the sense "red/white types of meat" and Google confirms that it is used that way (e.g. _Sauvignon dobro ide uz crvena mesa_.) However, searching for "rdeča mesa" or "bela mesa site:*.si" does not produce any hits, so I suppose it is not the case in Slovenian.



Right. Only the singular form sounds idiomatic to me.



Brainiac said:


> Yes, if there's an adjective or a parameter of quantity, mass nouns could form logical plural.
> Kuva se neko meso. (A piece of meat is being cooked)
> Razne vrste svinjskog mesa (Various types of pork meat), [different types of pork cuts]
> Bela i crvena mesa
> Vrste pilećeg mesa



In Slovenian, you could say *razne vrste svinjskega mesa*, but *mesa* in this case is the genitive singular form rather than the plural. Its plural equivalent would be *razne vrste svinjskih mes*, which just doesn't sound right.



Brainiac said:


> In BCS, there's _mesište (meat, disapproving),_ plural _mesišta_ (these's REALLY plural,  lots of meat, disapproving). I don't know if there's something similar in Slovenian



I suppose *mesovje* is the Slovenian equivalent, but once again, I can't think of any contexts in which the plural form would be used.


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## itreius

The use of _meso_ (BCS) in its plural form goes against my intuition, although I'm not sure how other Croatian speakers feel about it. I've never heard of "mesište" before.


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## Anicetus

TriglavNationalPark said:


> In Slovenian, you could say *razne vrste svinjskega mesa*, but *mesa* in this case is the genitive singular form rather than the plural. Its plural equivalent would be *razne vrste svinjskih mes*, which just doesn't sound right.



I don't think Brainiac was suggesting that _mesa_ was plural in this phrase. As far as I understood, she was showing that _meso_ may be used both as a countable and an uncountable noun in BCMS, depending on the context. 

I guess I don't talk about meat that often, so I can't think of a time when I actually heard _meso_ in plural in a conversation, but its usage in the context described by Duya and Brainiac sounds very natural to me. It's just like with other mass nouns: _bijela i crna vina, kemijske soli, kopnene vode_... Though the last one actually changes its meaning in plural, as I can't imagine _voda_ meaning _a body of water_. If I'm not mistaken, the same goes for its English equivalent. Can _voda_ be used in plural in Slovene?

I've never heard _mesište_ before either. If I understood correctly, its meaning is roughly the same as _mesina_?


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## TriglavNationalPark

Anicetus said:


> I guess I don't talk about meat that often, so I can't think of a time when I actually heard _meso_ in plural in a conversation, but its usage in the context described by Duya and Brainiac sounds very natural to me. It's just like with other mass nouns: _bijela i crna vina, kemijske soli, kopnene vode_... Though the last one actually changes its meaning in plural, as I can't imagine _voda_ meaning _a body of water_. If I'm not mistaken, the same goes for its English equivalent. Can _voda_ be used in plural in Slovene?



Yes, you can certainly say *mineralne vode *or *zdravilne vode*, for instance. In fact, all of the examples you mentioned (*vino*, *sol*, *voda*) have plural forms that are commonly used in Slovenian, much like in BCS; it's just *meso* that's apparently an exception.


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## Morana_

"Countability is a semantic feature of the nouns that can be counted with cardinal
(or, if they are pluralia tantum of the type vrata, with collective) numerals. Its opposite
is non-countability. According to contemporary Slovene linguistic theory, there are
three groups of non-count nouns, i. e., mass (železo), abstract (lepota) and collective
(grmovje) nouns. Although from morphological point of view these nouns have all
three grammatical numbers, this feature has a string attached: *it is limited by their
semantics, i. e., a change to non-singular always results in partial or complete change
of their basic lexical meaning, which is not typical of other nouns with forms for all
three grammatical numbers.*

Mass nouns change to count nouns within the following categories: *(1) various
types* (e. g., tkanine so različne, žganja so tuja in domača), *(2) concretizatio*n (e. g.,
dve železi 'two pieces of iron'; naročil je dve kavi 'two cups of coffee'), *(3) different
location in time or space* (e. g., snegovi so polomili drevje 'snow in this village, snow
in that village, snow in January, snow in February'), *(4) large quantity* (e. g., snegovi
so zametli vas 'large quantity of substance'), *(5) several instances of occurrence* (e. g.,
solato operi v treh vodah 'wash the lettuce three times'), *(6) other - mostly
metonymical switches* (e. g., lesovi 'forests', vode 'rivers', govna 'people (abusive)')."

from: _Mateja Hočevar Gregorič, SLOVENSKI NEŠTEVNI SAMOSTALNIKI IN NJIHOVA OBRAVNAVA
V SSKJ_

I would only add to this that the 2nd category is extremely common in spoken language, while categories 3 and 4 are strictly stylistic and extremely rare. 

_Meso_, however, cannot be changed to a countable noun, not even in the 2nd category. But it can be done with its diminutive form (_mesek_) when talking to little children and only in the case of a - for instance - steak cut into small pieces. You can then ask the child: have you eaten all your /pieces of meat/, or: how many have you got left, etc. (2nd category)


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## Duya

Anicetus said:


> I guess I don't talk about meat that often, so I can't think of a time when I actually heard _meso_ in plural in a conversation, but its usage in the context described by Duya and Brainiac sounds very natural to me. It's just like with other mass nouns: _bijela i crna vina, kemijske soli, kopnene vode_...



Let me just clarify that plural _mesa_ is extremely rare in BCS as well, because when talking about different types we would either use singular (_svinjsko, pileće i goveđe meso_) or a qualificative (_nekoliko vrsta mesa_, _nekoliko kategorija mesa_). I struggled to find the _crvena/bela mesa_ example, but it does come out natural, if rarely used.



Anicetus said:


> I've never heard _mesište_ before either. If I understood correctly, its meaning is roughly the same as _mesina_?



Yes, basically the same. I sense _mesište_ as a humorous exaggeration. I believe it is only or chiefly used in Serbia.


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## Brainiac

Anicetus said:


> I don't think Brainiac was suggesting that _mesa_ was plural in this phrase. As far as I understood, she was showing that _meso_ may be used both as a countable and an uncountable noun in BCMS, depending on the context.



   

********

"Nema ručka bez mesa"... was that from _Radovan Treći_? (Serbian serious comedy) 
_Mesište_ is humorous or sarcastic, an irony
_mesište - Alfa i omega srpske kuhinje
mesište u zamrzivaču_

Remember the thread "Words after a good meal":


			
				Santanawinds said:
			
		

> i bome znam kako se dobro jede po regiji, putovala sam autom okolo po  Hrvatskoj, Bosni, Srbiji i Makedoniji, i vratila se s nekoliko kila više
> Jedino kad sam stigla do Matka kod Skopje i naručila šopsku salatu, sam  shvatila koliko sam zapravo mesa jela putem i koliko je ta salata  pasala.





**********


Anicetus said:


> I've never heard _mesište_ before either. If I understood correctly, its meaning is roughly the same as _mesina_?



I don't know Croatian word for mesište, but mesina in Serbian could refer to body, body flesh.
mešina is paunch, belly
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mešina


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## VelikiMag

TriglavNationalPark said:


> I can't think of any context in which *mesa* (the theoretical plural of *meso*) would be idiomatic


One of the 'specialties' you can buy at fast food kiosks is called _belo meso_. On one occasion, in my presence, a man who was apparently working a night shift was buying dinner for the whole shift. So he ordered: _šest belih mesa_. 
That would be the only situation where I would use plural, because you are required to count it and the number is greater than 4.


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